# Pros and cons of steel sailboats



## CaptainQuiet

I'm thinking about making the leap from fiberglass to steel for our next sailboat. We want to do some far flung cruising - maybe even circumnavigate. Our present boat is a 1977 Tartan 37 and while we love it - since we've had a child and possibly will have another one on the way it might get a bit small for a liveaboard situation.
This summer I drove a big, old steel tour boat around the finger lakes and started thinking that steel might be a good way to get my family around the big marble. 
I've spent a week in the Caribbean on a glorious aluminium boat but have never sailed a steel one, so I have lots of questions about their performance as cruising boats? 
What are some of the better designers to keep and eye out for? 
How good are they in the hot climates? 
Are there any extra dangers in lightning? 
Thanks for any and all advice you can give.


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## Brent Swain

I've been building and designing steel boats for the last 36 years. I've pulled together 37 of them to my own designs. An increasing number of people around the world are building their own . Most of my clients have checked out he used fibreglass boat market , some have crossed oceans in them and came to the conclusion that they wouldn't want to go to sea again in anything which was not made of steel. The Fukashima debris field has re-enforced that opinion greatly. 
Jimmy Cornell's book "Modern Ocean Cruising," the circumnavigators he interviewed have mostly expressed the same opinions. Check out our website. Just do a search under origamiboats and pick the first one ( yahoo groups) a gold mine of steel boat building information there, from people with a wide range of back grounds, and experience. 
After decades of cruising and living aboard my own steel boats, I would never consider anything but a steel boat. After sailing my first boat, a ferro cement boat from BC to New Zealand, I became very interested in a steel boat for my next boat. I lost that boat on a Fijian coral reef, in conditions which would have never even damaged a steel boat. I found a steel boat made cruising far more worry and tension free, to a degree which is unimaginable to those who have only cruised in boats of lesser materials.
Lighter colours and sprayfoam insulation make them, by far, the most comfortable boats in hot climates. Being well grounded, they are the safest boats to be in in a lightening storm. You couldn't ask for better grounding.


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## jackdale

Here are a couple of boats designed by Brent



















I know that they also float.


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## Faster

jackdale said:


> Here are a couple of boats designed by Brent
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> I know that they also float.


Comox backwater, Jack??

The undeniable inherent strength of steel has to be a big comfort at sea and in rock-hopping scenarios.

With today's advanced coatings the maintenance issue is probably much reduced relatively speaking. Repairable anywhere.

But, (no offence, Brent) they're not always pretty and most are hard chine, which is OK but something you need to 'like'.. Soft chine metal boats are usually much more costly to have built.

It's not a quick easy way to build a boat, esp compared to 'plastic' so steel boats will always be in the minority in 'yachty' circles...


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## Marcel D

Kanter yachts dose a nice full steel hull. Check them out at Kanter Yachts they make a great boat that will take you around the marble. And in style as well!!!!


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## jackdale

Faster - Tis Comox.


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## PCP

The advantages are already posted. They are strong and even if more expensive than plastic boats to build commercially, they are relatively easy to build by an amateur.

The real disadvantage is weight that makes them slow boats. That is not a problem for bigger boats but it is a real problem to smaller sailboats.

Regarding smaller sailboats (- 45ft) I think aluminium is a better material. The French amateurs boat builders use a thick aluminium that dispenses internal framing and that makes it almost as easy to work with as working with steel and permits a lighter boat and faster boat.

Marine Auctions - Australia, Brisbane


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## chucklesR

I'm not a expert, and don't remember ever staying in a Holiday Inn Express - but

Brent, or someone that is - 

Doesn't the hard chine, being below the water line, reduce tenderness (i.e. make it stiffer) - which I count as a good thing. 
I suspect it adds drag, but a cruiser is not a racer. 

Brent, I don't agree with a lot of things you say - but if I was building a boat in my yard it would be one of yours.


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## TQA

I cruised for 7 years on a 20 year old Ryton 38 steel boat in the 90s. Other than the ongoing rust war I was happy and certainly very happy one night when I hit something doing 6 knots. I have no idea what it was but it put a BIG DENT in the front of the keel. I suspect that it would have badly damaged a grp or wood boat.

A little known disadvantage of having a steel boat is that in the event of a lightning strike the boat can become strongly magnetised rendering all onboard compasses useless. Ask me how I know this!


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## aeventyr60

And all the steel boat owners i see out here are constantly fighting the battle against rust. If you want to become ONe with your grinder, all kinds of nasty epoxy, acids, paints, welders then go with steel. Sure the strength is a great plus, but the upkeep? seems like most are put together in some back yard, and the owners are forever grinding away. Great designs Brent, but the build quality on most? Forget about it!


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## CaptainQuiet

Thanks for all the feedback. 
I'm not sure we're in the market for a newly built vessel - our budget is more aligned with 10- 20 year old boats. 
I'm a novice welder and would like to find something that needs major TLC and new systems so I could put it together before heading out. 
Weight and therefore slowness is something I thought might be an issue. We are shopping for something in the 40 to 45 foot range, so maybe the advice PCP gives about aluminium deserves a closer look - where could we find info about the French boats? I always thought aluminum was too expensive. 
Center cockpit and aft cabin are also something that appeals to us. Cutter or Ketch both could work. The design of the Stevens 47 or the 44 Kelley Peterson, or even Ted Brewer's Whitby 42 are ones that I've liked. Any of those in steel out there?
Thanks again for all the feedback.


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## Faster

CaptainQuiet said:


> Thanks for all the feedback.
> ....... where could we find info about the French boats? I always thought aluminum was too expensive. .....


Ovni-Club : Alubat sailboats Ovni yachts Owners Association fr

Ovni boats for sale - www.yachtworld.com

They ARE expensive... but have a look.


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## CaptainQuiet

Ouch. yes those are a bit pricey- but beautiful. 
Any idea where I could learn more about the ones mentioned earlier in this post?

"Regarding smaller sailboats (- 45ft) I think aluminium is a better material. The French amateurs boat builders use a thick aluminium that dispenses internal framing and that makes it almost as easy to work with as working with steel and permits a lighter boat and faster boat."

Thanks!


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## PCP

CaptainQuiet said:


> ...
> I'm not sure we're in the market for a newly built vessel - our budget is more aligned with 10- 20 year old boats.
> I'm a novice welder and would like to find something that needs major TLC and new systems so I could put it together before heading out.
> Weight and therefore slowness is something I thought might be an issue. We are shopping for something in the 40 to 45 foot range, so maybe the advice PCP gives about aluminium deserves a closer look - where could we find info about the French boats? I always thought aluminum was too expensive.
> Center cockpit and aft cabin are also something that appeals to us. Cutter or Ketch both could work. The design of the Stevens 47 or the 44 Kelley Peterson, or even Ted Brewer's Whitby 42 are ones that I've liked. Any of those in steel out there?
> Thanks again for all the feedback.


Regarding an aluminum French boasts you can look at the interesting boat thread, there are many information about them including seaworthiness. There is a member that posted there that has a recent OVNI 395? and another one that post recently is waiting for the delivery of a new Boreal 44.

Boréal 44, « Sailing boat of the year 2010 » in France

Alubat, chantier de bateaux en aluminium sur mesures, les sables d'olonne, vendée, constructeur de bateau | Alubat | des bateaux en aluminium à vos mesures

The place to look for a not too expensive aluminium boat is France, specially if it is one from one of the less expensive brands. Many of those had the hulls and masts made professionally and the rest home made. I guess this would be the more interesting for you. Much cheaper used, solid but in need of some work. Good time too to buy in France

As you would have some difficulty in looking in French sites I have made a quick search. There are also some steel boats even if that would not be my option. Some boats will be inevitably repetitions (sometimes the prices are different) and I looked under 200 000 euros, boats with less than 15 years old. Older or more expensive and more recent there are many. These are asking prices. The boats are not selling so I guess you can get a much better price on some if this boats.

An advise: If you can have an OVNI 43 or 435. These are great boats. Probably the Allures 44 is even better but more expensive.

Regards

Paulo

ALUBAT OVNI 435 Voiliers 12 - 14 m d'occasion année 2001
ALUBAT OVNI 385 occasion 2000 - Voiliers 12 - 14 m
ALLURES YACHTING ALLURES 44 Voiliers 12 - 14 m d'occasion année 2005
CHANTIER META LOGIQUE DE MER 40 Voiliers 10 - 12 m année 2002
CHANTIER AMATEUR ALADIN 11.75 Voiliers 10 - 12 m d'occasion année 2004
CAROFF CHATAM EXPRESS 40 Voiliers 10 - 12 m année 2005
Vente ALUBAT OVNI 385 Voiliers 10 - 12 m - 160000 €
http://www.monbateau.com/monbateau-pages/details-annonces-

http://www.annoncebateaux/detail-mo.../596958/Lunit/M/Punit/E/NOMBATEAU/OVNI 385 DI

OVNI 385 - Alubat : bateau vendre sur monBateau.com

http://www.monbateau.com/monbateau-.../592726/Lunit/M/Punit/E/NOMBATEAU/OVNI 385 DI

ALUBAT OVNI 385 DI - Ano : 2002 - EYB

ALUBAT OVNI 43 - Ano : 1992 - EYB

ALUBAT OVNI 435 - Ano : 2002 - EYB

OVNI 385 DI occasion - Bateau d'occasion - ALUBAT

OVNI 435 occasion - Bateau d'occasion - ALUBAT

CHATAM 40 Extrême occasion - Voilier d'occasion - CAROFF


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## SloopJonB

Faster said:


> most are hard chine, which is OK but something you need to 'like'.. Soft chine metal boats are usually much more costly to have built.


Ted Brewer came up with a process called "Radius Chine" that was plated conventionally but the chine area was replaced with a rolled piece that removed the hard edge. I've seen a couple and you'd never know they weren't conventional round bilge design unless you knew about it.

I don't know the cost details but I can't imagine it would increase the build cost very much - most large machine shops have big plate rollers. The framing in the chine area would take a bit more work as well, to get the radius on all the frames.

I see no reason why you couldn't do the same thing in alloy.


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## PCP

CaptainQuiet said:


> Ouch. yes those are a bit pricey- but beautiful.
> Any idea where I could learn more about the ones mentioned earlier in this post?
> 
> "Regarding smaller sailboats (- 45ft) I think aluminium is a better material. The French amateurs boat builders use a thick aluminium that dispenses internal framing and that makes it almost as easy to work with as working with steel and permits a lighter boat and faster boat."
> 
> Thanks!


Strong Yachts

Meta Chantier Naval » NOTRE HISTOIRE

Meta Chantier Naval » Les Voiliers

Architecture navale - Jean-Pierre Brouns

Architecture navale - Jean-Pierre Brouns


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## Faster

SloopJonB said:


> Ted Brewer came up with a process called "Radius Chine" that was plated conventionally but the chine area was replaced with a rolled piece that removed the hard edge. I've seen a couple and you'd never know they weren't conventional round bilge design unless you knew about it.
> 
> I don't know the cost details but I can't imagine it would increase the build cost very much - most large machine shops have big plate rollers. The framing in the chine area would take a bit more work as well, to get the radius on all the frames.
> 
> I see no reason why you couldn't do the same thing in alloy.


Yes.. agree that that will work in either medium.. more labour intensive still. Amazon and Waterline yachts on Vancouver Island made some very nice soft chine steel boats too, probably using similar techniques.

Years ago I saw in Victoria what I first believed to be a Norseman 447 (one of my favourite Perry designs).. turned out to be a 'homebuilt' in aluminum. It was a work of art and hard to tell from factory. Spent quite a bit of time discussing (and admiring) her with the owner/builder. Perry had apparently reworked the details for him, it looked to have worked out great. Have not seen it since.


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## PCP

It seems incredible but there are some guys that can manage some soft chines with Origami techniques:

Origami Magic

Chines are not necessarily bad to performance and some years ago a class 40 with hard chines left many (including me) amazed...well, the boat won a lot or races.

There are aluminium boats with no chines. Allures was the first small builder to do that but for doing that:

*"And for our sail yacht construction, we have implemented partnerships with a super yacht yard and a famous cabinet maker company. Through these partnerships we get access to exclusive know-how and top level industrial tools. "*

Notre chantier


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## tdw

Having owned a 34' Van de Stadt in steel the performance issue is probably the main drawback though yes the maintenance can get you down. Nonetheless I think that chines or no chines she is a very handsome looking boat. The VDS34 is multi chine and for mine that makes for a better look than the somewhat slab sided appearance of hard chine.


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## CaptainQuiet

tdw, 
What were the shortcomings in your VDS34 performance? And someone mentioned before that maintenance (rust) is becoming less of a problem with more modern paints- would you say that is true, and finally - what kind of a maintenance schedule are we talking about here? 
thanks


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## Jgbrown

Do many builders here zinc flame the hulls?

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk


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## tdw

CaptainQuiet said:


> tdw,
> What were the shortcomings in your VDS34 performance? And someone mentioned before that maintenance (rust) is becoming less of a problem with more modern paints- would you say that is true, and finally - what kind of a maintenance schedule are we talking about here?
> thanks


CQ .... even with modern paints and protective coatings steel will require more maintenance than glass. There is always some small spot that needs attention and if you ignore, it is not going away. With a steeler you simply need to keep an eye open, your dremel at the ready and a touch up kit. We found POR to be worthwhile.

Performance shortcomings in reality are only when compared to a similar boat. The glass or timber boat (vds 34s were made in steel, glass or cold moulded diagonal strip) has less overall weight, same sail area but more weight in the keel itself. The steeler has a heavier hull so can carry less ballast in the keel. Ergo the glass and timber versions will stand up to their sails better and can get along in less wind.

One other point to consider is that it seems to me that whenever people build steel boats they also tend to go for all timber interiors with bugger all attention given to the weight. A friend of mine with a timber VDS34 and a comparatively lightweight interior sits around 150mm higher in the water than our old girl with her full timber fitout. Sure we had the more comfortable boat, more fuel, more water but in anything under 15 - 20 knots the other girl sailed rings around us.

To be clear I am not down on steelers though if I was to go down that path again I'd want more than 40' and more care taken to keep interior weight down. Aluminium is quite frankly preferable .... in my eyes at least.


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## CaptainQuiet

Thanks to all for your replies. A lot to think about.
Funny what started out as a thread on steel boats has turned into an endorsement for aluminium boats. While I greatly appreciate this info, I wonder if there are any steel boaters out there who have yet to chime in ?


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## Brent Swain

Faster said:


> Comox backwater, Jack??
> 
> The undeniable inherent strength of steel has to be a big comfort at sea and in rock-hopping scenarios.
> 
> With today's advanced coatings the maintenance issue is probably much reduced relatively speaking. Repairable anywhere.
> 
> But, (no offence, Brent) they're not always pretty and most are hard chine, which is OK but something you need to 'like'.. Soft chine metal boats are usually much more costly to have built.
> 
> It's not a quick easy way to build a boat, esp compared to 'plastic' so steel boats will always be in the minority in 'yachty' circles...


With a skilled owner and good tools, I've put together a 36 ft hull in two days or tacked together the shell( Hull, decks, wheelhouse, cabin, cockpit keel and skeg ) in 6 days. My methods have reduced the time in building a shell, to 1/10th the time of traditional steel boat building, and the cost to far less than building a new fibreglass shell.Once the shell has been built, the ability to fabricate and weld, rather than bolt down fittings,further drastically reduces the cost of building in steel .

When the cost of steel to build a 36 was around $4K ,the cost of aluminium to build the same boat was around $20K, and aluminium welding equipment was far more expensive . You can only weld aluminium outside in a dead calm, in dry weather. Aluminium welds are only 60% the strength of the surrounding metal, whereas steel welds are 100% , demand far less skill, and are far harder to screw up on. 
It's extremely hard to find effective antifouling which wont react with aluminium. 
When people ask me about corrosion, I tell them steel has far more problems above the waterline ,where you can easily see it and deal with it. Aluminium has far more trouble below the waterline, where you don't see it, it is harder to deal with ,and happens far more quickly when it does..
On my steel 31 footer, maintenance cost has averaged around 2 hours a year, and less than $50 a year. Trimming all, side corners with stainless and fabricating all your cleats, handrails and details with scrap stainless can reduce your maintenance by 80%, as the main chipping of paint is on outside corners, rarely on flat surfaces. If you have rust problems on flat surfaces your epoxy is probably not thick enough. The thicker the better. 
Weight problems on steel boats are largely caused by outdated building methods, with tons of uneeded and irrelevant framing. I remember one steel boat made out of 1/8th inch plate. They let carpenters put the interior in. They lined it with one inch plywood then an inch of teak, which combined, weighed many times the weight of the steel .
It's not displacement alone which makes a boat too slow .It's the displacement to sail area . Heavier boat, more sail.


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## Brent Swain

Faster said:


> Comox backwater, Jack??
> 
> The undeniable inherent strength of steel has to be a big comfort at sea and in rock-hopping scenarios.
> 
> With today's advanced coatings the maintenance issue is probably much reduced relatively speaking. Repairable anywhere.
> 
> But, (no offence, Brent) they're not always pretty and most are hard chine, which is OK but something you need to 'like'.. Soft chine metal boats are usually much more costly to have built.
> 
> It's not a quick easy way to build a boat, esp compared to 'plastic' so steel boats will always be in the minority in 'yachty' circles...


The chine is below the waterline, and invisible at high tide.

Notice I've radiused the chine on the green one, not that hard to do, if you consider it worth the trouble.


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## PCP

You have asked about a boat build with aluminum stongal. I find this one that was built by a reputable shipyard (meta) and that is being sold at an incredible price. I don't know if the boat has any problem. It is sold directly by the owner and that can make it less expensive. At that price I think it deserves a look

Meta Chantier Naval » LOGIQUE DE MER 40

CHANTIER META LOGIQUE DE MER 40 Voiliers 10 - 12 m année 2002

Contact : Mme Pascale MAISONNEUVE

Mail : [email protected]

You can see on Meta shipyard page more used strongal boats like this one:

http://www.meta-chantier-naval.fr/web/les-constructions/nos-occasions/dalu-40/

Here is the page:

http://www.meta-chantier-naval.fr/web/les-constructions/nos-occasions/


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## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> On my steel 31 footer, maintenance cost has averaged around 2 hours a year, and less than $50 a year.


 Can you elaborate on that? In my experience the dinghy takes more than that. Are you meaning the difference compared to glass boats?



> Trimming all, side corners with stainless and fabricating all your cleats, handrails and details with scrap stainless can reduce your maintenance by 80%,


Can S/S be welded properly to mild steel? Having cleats, stanchions, chainplates, bow rollers etc. all one piece with the hull would be a BIG advantage - think of all the caulking you'd save!


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## CaptainQuiet

Brent Swain said:


> With a skilled owner and good tools, I've put together a 36 ft hull in two days or tacked together the shell( Hull, decks, wheelhouse, cabin, cockpit keel and skeg ) in 6 days. My methods have reduced the time in building a shell, to 1/10th the time of traditional steel boat building, and the cost to far less than building a new fibreglass shell.Once the shell has been built, the ability to fabricate and weld, rather than bolt down fittings,further drastically reduces the cost of building in steel .
> 
> When the cost of steel to build a 36 was around $4K ,the cost of aluminium to build the same boat was around $20K, and aluminium welding equipment was far more expensive . You can only weld aluminium outside in a dead calm, in dry weather. Aluminium welds are only 60% the strength of the surrounding metal, whereas steel welds are 100% , demand far less skill, and are far harder to screw up on.
> It's extremely hard to find effective antifouling which wont react with aluminium.
> 
> It's not displacement alone which makes a boat too slow .It's the displacement to sail area . Heavier boat, more sail.


Brent- where can I see some of the designs you've done. I can't find your website. Love to see more. Got anything in the 40ish range, center cockpit ketch? We're going to be a family of four and would like it to be a go anywhere boat- around the marble perhaps.


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## xymotic

CaptainQuiet said:


> Brent- where can I see some of the designs you've done. I can't find your website. Love to see more. Got anything in the 40ish range, center cockpit ketch? We're going to be a family of four and would like it to be a go anywhere boat- around the marble perhaps.


I think this is his site: Boat Designs

hth


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## SloopJonB

This is Brent's site.

Home - Origamiboats: The Art of Frameless Steel Boatbuilding


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## BryceGTX

Interesting thread... Everything bad about steel.. Nothing much bad about aluminum??

Clearly aluminum does not have the deterministic fatigue resistance of steel. Aluminum seems to be sensative to not just corrosion, but also disimilar metals and electrolysis.

No doubt, some like steel, some like wood, some like grp and some like aluminum. But don't think for a moment that aluminum like others does not have serious issues.
Bryce


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## tdw

Of course aluminium has issues if not treated correctly but I think the gist of this thread is that overall it comes out on top as a building material other than the required buckazoids.


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## cherev

Ah, that secret rot called rust. 

No, fiberglass, laid up like a Morgan OI 47', is the better transoceanic hull. Fiberglass reinforced with carbon-fiber core matting would be really strong, and perhaps could be made thinner.

I had read of someone building their own boat of copper, suppose that would cost too much today. Aluminum is an interesting idea, but concealed corrosion along welds also a problem. Maybe an aluminum catamaran or trimaran is an idea. No sticky compass problems, what?


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## SloopJonB

cherev said:


> No, fiberglass, laid up like a *Morgan OI 47'*, is the better transoceanic hull.


No such animal ever existed. There were a few OI 49's built but they are quite rare.


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## xymotic

SloopJonB said:


> No such animal ever existed. There were a few OI 49's built but they are quite rare.


Statement still stands, that's the better hull.:laugher


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## BryceGTX

tdw said:


> aluminum... overall it comes out on top as a building material


I tend to view materials as useful for a particular application. Aluminum may be useful if you are particularly concerned about weight. It appears the application for this thread is a cruiser. Seems unlikely justification for aluminum.

Aluminum structures need careful testing to quantify their fatigue life. The Airline industry makes use of an incredible quantity of aluminum for wings, landing gear and body. And they characterize the fatigue strength and resulting life with sophisticated structual test systems than often contain 100s of actuators. Quite impressive test systems.

So do these aluminum boat manufacturers subject their hulls to similar fatigue tests? Probably not. These multi-channel test systems cost tens of millions of dollars. Well beyond the wallet of the boat builders.

We have all seen the fatigue cracks on masts and booms on sail boats. Many of us have small aluminum boats with numerous fatigue cracks in various load points. And some of us have seen aluminum hulls from older boats with numerous cracks.

Even with the incredibly careful testing the airline industry subjects their planes to, they have fatigue cracks in the structures. Careful inspections catch most problems before the plane falls out of the sky. The automotive manufacturers perform similar fatigue testing.

If weight is the major concern, yes you might like an aluminum hull.. but really.. a cruiser is hardly weight sensitive. On the contrary, the heavier boat will be invariably more comfortable which cruisers eventually learn.

Wood rots, steel rusts, aluminum cracks/corrodes, fiberglass coring fails. Each material comes out on top for some particular application.
Take your pick.. just understand the limitations..
Bryce


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## Brent Swain

Jgbrown said:


> Do many builders here zinc flame the hulls?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk


Several of my boats have been flame sprayed with zinc, totally eliminating corrosion. Friends have also used a mixture of zinc and aluminium, after much research showed that to be best.
I flame sprayed one 36 with zinc. I found that the spray starts to go on like fine sandpaper, and there is very little heat buildup, barely warming the plate. When it starts to spatter, and you get more heat buildup, its time to take the gun apart and clean the tiny holes in it.The more frequently you do this, the better the job.


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## Brent Swain

cherev said:


> Ah, that secret rot called rust.
> 
> No, fiberglass, laid up like a Morgan OI 47', is the better transoceanic hull. Fiberglass reinforced with carbon-fiber core matting would be really strong, and perhaps could be made thinner.
> 
> I had read of someone building their own boat of copper, suppose that would cost too much today. Aluminum is an interesting idea, but concealed corrosion along welds also a problem. Maybe an aluminum catamaran or trimaran is an idea. No sticky compass problems, what?


One of the big advantages of steel is zero deck leaks, ever, as welding down your hardware eliminates any chance of them ever leaking. No matter how rough it gets, you always have a dry bunk to sleep in at the end of the day, on a well insulated steel boat. There is no way you can get bolted down gear on a fibreglass deck that permanently water proof, with zero chance of leaking . Fibreglass decks always end up leaking, eventually.
There is no way you can get a fibreglass boat as impact resistant as a steel hull. That is why so many former fibreglass boat cruisers tend to gravitate towards steel . The increase in peace of mind, when blasting along at hull speed on a moonless night, in a steel hull, has to be experienced to be appreciated.


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## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> Can you elaborate on that? In my experience the dinghy takes more than that. Are you meaning the difference compared to glass boats?
> No, total, grinding out the odd rust spot and giving it several coats of epoxy. Every three or four years I give her hull and decks a coat of enamel, at around $27 a gallon for Home Hardware fishboat paint. Being a twin keeler I scrape the bottom from time to time, about ten minutes worth of work.In 28 years I've only hauled out twice.
> 
> Can S/S be welded properly to mild steel? Having cleats, stanchions, chainplates, bow rollers etc. all one piece with the hull would be a BIG advantage - think of all the caulking you'd save!


 Stainless can be easily and reliably welded to steel with stainless type 316 rods. All my gear, cleats, handrails, hatch hinges, mooring bitts, bow roller , windvane, anchor winch,chainplates ,stanchions ,etc ,are welded down. Zero risk of them ever leaking.


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## Brent Swain

CaptainQuiet said:


> Brent- where can I see some of the designs you've done. I can't find your website. Love to see more. Got anything in the 40ish range, center cockpit ketch? We're going to be a family of four and would like it to be a go anywhere boat- around the marble perhaps.


Just do a search under origamiboats and pick the first one ( yahoo groups )
You will see a photo of one of my centre cockpit 40 footers at Fanning Island, in the photo section there.


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## PCP

BryceGTX said:


> I tend to view materials as useful for a particular application. Aluminum may be useful if you are particularly concerned about weight. It appears the application for this thread is a cruiser. Seems unlikely justification for aluminum.
> 
> Aluminum structures need careful testing to quantify their fatigue life. The Airline industry makes use of an incredible quantity of aluminum for wings, landing gear and body. And they characterize the fatigue strength and resulting life with sophisticated structual test systems than often contain 100s of actuators. Quite impressive test systems.
> 
> So do these aluminum boat manufacturers subject their hulls to similar fatigue tests? Probably not. These multi-channel test systems cost tens of millions of dollars. Well beyond the wallet of the boat builders.
> 
> We have all seen the fatigue cracks on masts and booms on sail boats. Many of us have small aluminum boats with numerous fatigue cracks in various load points. And some of us have seen aluminum hulls from older boats with numerous cracks.
> 
> Even with the incredibly careful testing the airline industry subjects their planes to, they have fatigue cracks in the structures. Careful inspections catch most problems before the plane falls out of the sky. The automotive manufacturers perform similar fatigue testing.
> 
> If weight is the major concern, yes you might like an aluminum hull.. but really.. a cruiser is hardly weight sensitive. On the contrary, the heavier boat will be invariably more comfortable which cruisers eventually learn.
> 
> Wood rots, steel rusts, aluminum cracks/corrodes, fiberglass coring fails. Each material comes out on top for some particular application.
> Take your pick.. just understand the limitations..
> Bryce


Bryce, aluminum are not very used in the US to build sailing boats but it is in France and Holland and the guys that use them are long range voyagers. Yes Aluminum is more difficult for an amateur but almost all those boats are professionally built. Normally amateurs buy the hulls and cabins and make the interior but there are many reputable brands making small production aluminum boats for 30 years and they are all there on the water.

A good way to access durability and the way a boat keep its good shape without a ton of needed expensive work is the value a boat has on the second hand market. Go there and look at the prices for a 15 or 20 year old steel boat and for the prices of aluminum boats of the same age. Compare their value: Sure, a aluminum boat is more expensive from the start but not that much.

Is also for that reason that there are many shipyards making small production aluminum boats and not one that I know of making relatively small steel boats, the size of the ones we sail.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Brent Swain

One should not confuse resale price with resale value. Resale price is what you can get for a used boat, but resale value is the difference between what you can get for her, and what she cost you in the first place.
Its not uncommon for people to spend an extra $40K on a boat, to increase the resale price by $20K, a net loss of $20K. 
Many of my boats have sold for many times what they cost the original builder. The more you spend on her, the less the gap, until it becomes a money losing proposition.

I have pulled together 37 small steel boats.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent, you are unusually well qualified to provide a real world answer to the performance question of steel boats.

What is your typical miles per day average on your Pacific crossings in your own boat?


----------



## PCP

Brent, I am not saying bad things about steel boats. They are what they are: strong, heavy and slow if they are not really big.

You have a way of building solid boats in a way that is not expensive and that makes it simple for an amateur to build for not much money and I appreciate that and certainly you have a market for them. But if you go to a shipyard with a more complex design of a 40ft boat that can be built in aluminum or steel (some designs can) the difference in price should be about 25% less for steel. In 15 years the difference in value of the two boats will be much more than those 25% difference and besides that even much more cheaper the steel boat is going to be much more difficult to sell. 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## BryceGTX

PCP said:


> Bryce, aluminum are not very used in the US to build sailing boats but it is in France and Holland and the guys that use them are long range voyagers.


The first aluminum boats were built in the US in the late 1950s. Almost any boat of any shape or size has been built since then. However, fiberglass became the material of choice due to its significant lower maintenance and higher durability.

Currently, millions upon millions of small aluminum fishing boats and high performance bass boats are produced where weight is the critical issue because they are transported by trailer.

You would find it difficult to convince the American market that aluminum would be preferably over fiberglass for boat construction. There are way too many boaters that are familiar with the fatigue issues involved with aluminum boats.



> Yes Aluminum is more difficult for an amateur but almost all those boats are professionally built. Normally amateurs buy the hulls and cabins and make the interior but there are many reputable brands making small production aluminum boats for 30 years and they are all there on the water.


There is no doubt in my mind that the US produces magnitudes more production quality aluminum boats than the European boat industry. These guys are not amateurs.. they are production boat companies.. Lund for example. Various companies since 1950s.. closing in on 60 years.

You cannot convince us that because a boat is 30 years old, it is a good construction material. There are 100 year old wood boats still afloat that would seem to indicate wood is better than aluminum.



> Is also for that reason that there are many shipyards making small production aluminum boats and not one that I know of making relatively small steel boats, the size of the ones we sail.


My discussion is not steel versus aluminum, rather it is should anyone use aluminum for large boats for any other reason than for the express requirement of light weight.

You have not addressed the durability question, possibly because the European industry is only 30 years old compared to the US industry of nearly 60 years experience.
Bryce


----------



## xymotic

BryceGTX said:


> The first aluminum boats were built in the US in the late 1950s. Almost any boat of any shape or size has been built since then. However, fiberglass became the material of choice due to its significant lower maintenance and higher durability.
> 
> Currently, millions upon millions of small aluminum fishing boats and high performance bass boats are produced where weight is the critical issue because they are transported by trailer.
> 
> You would find it difficult to convince the American market that aluminum would be preferably over fiberglass for boat construction. There are way too many boaters that are familiar with the fatigue issues involved with aluminum boats.
> 
> There is no doubt in my mind that the US produces magnitudes more production quality aluminum boats than the European boat industry. These guys are not amateurs.. they are production boat companies.. Lund for example. Various companies since 1950s.. closing in on 60 years.
> 
> You cannot convince us that because a boat is 30 years old, it is a good construction material. There are 100 year old wood boats still afloat that would seem to indicate wood is better than aluminum.
> 
> My discussion is not steel versus aluminum, rather it is should anyone use aluminum for large boats for any other reason than for the express requirement of light weight.
> 
> You have not addressed the durability question, possibly because the European industry is only 30 years old compared to the US industry of nearly 60 years experience.
> Bryce


My Steel Ketch is 74 years old.

I just like saying that


----------



## AlaskaMC

BryceGTX said:


> You have not addressed the durability question, possibly because the European industry is only 30 years old compared to the US industry of nearly 60 years experience.
> Bryce


Bryce,

I agree with you that there are tons of aluminum boats produced in the US and have been for years. In fact, in Alaska, they are hands down the most common build you see when it comes to offshore commercial sport fishing boats and jet boats. I can definitely see the benefits up here for one when it comes to durability. Steel as well, but the weight issue is real.

I guess I am confused by your post though, are you saying that aluminum is a only a viable choice when weight is the primary issue? I would say that lots of duel diesel fishing boats would disagree. In fact I love the idea of the French cruising aluminum sailboats and would love to be able to afford one. I guess I am not sure I get the point you are making above. Sounds like you are bragging up our aluminum boat industry (I agree) but then trashing the material at the same time (and the European boat industry to boot).

And on a side note, aren't you a snow mobile guy as well?


----------



## Stumble

Lets be realistic here guys, the best material for a boat is an all titanium hull. 

Size for size a steel boat is always going to be both heavier and cheaper. However this is just for the hull. Aluminium doesn't need to be painted, so this can be a pretty big cost savings, and because the systems can be smaller (rig, engines, transmission, ect) the difference in cost between aluminium and steel for the entire boat isn't really as high as the cost to just build the hull may imply. 

I always find it interesting that people raise concerns about the fatigue life of aluminium, but no one ever raises the issue with fiberglass. Given that fiberglass has the same fatigue problems as aluminium it seems more of a theoretical problem than an actual one, so long as the boat is properly designed in the first place.


----------



## goboatingnow

Europeans have been building aluminium boats as long as the US. But specifically in Sailboats the European market is the largest in the world( and significantly bigger then the US) and hence also accommodates aluminium sailboat construction. The US has little or no experience in metal based leisure sailboats. Its only when you get into super yacht territory do you see some experience.


----------



## PCP

BryceGTX said:


> ...
> You would find it difficult to convince the American market that aluminum would be preferably over fiberglass for boat construction.
> ..


Nobody is saying the opposite. In Europe fiberglass boats are much more common than aluminum boats and for a good reason: they are cheaper to build for a similar weight. The Aluminium boats are only common and even dominant on the French market in a very small market segment: grand range voyage boats, I mean the ones used to circumnavigate or to sail to faraway places and nobody do that with more frequency than French sailors.

The reason is obvious: the boats are as light as fiberglass boats (and sail as well) and are much more resistant to hull impacts to debris in the water. They can also be beached (much are centerboarders) with much more confidence than a fiberglass boat.

Regarding boatbuilding in aluminum I was referring to the pleasure market and particularly to cruising sailboats. There are in Europe many shipyards that have small production and medium serial production of sailboats. Do you have any on the US, I mean sailboats? There are even more shypiards that have not a serial production but are specialized on pleasure aluminium building.

Regarding the difference in performance, that is a huge one and one that makes a small steel boat really only appropriated to sail on the trade winds and even so a lot worse than an aluminum boat, that can have a similar performance regarding the one of a fast fiberglass boat.

I know what I am talking about. A big part of my sail learning was done (for years) on a 16m steel ketch. I remember how safe and even fast the boat was with a F9 wind but also remember that outside what most would call bad weather, the most we got was motorsailing or small speeds. In fact we only went out with the boat for sailing when all other sail boats were coming to port looking for shelter

An interesting post of a *owner of a 43 year old aluminum boat*:

quote:

*"For some reason there seems to be many stories of disaster, particularly on this side of the Atlantic, around aluminum as a boat building material. These stories normally go like this: "I have a friend, who knows a guy, who has a cousin, that bought an aluminum boat, and after a week in the marina the bottom fell out of her".

The funny thing is that after 20 years of aluminum boat ownership and ten years of being a fairly high profile proponent of the material, I have yet to meet one of these mythical aluminum boat victims.

The fact is that as long as the boat is built out of the right aluminum alloys, and the right welding rod is used (all well documented), aluminum boats last longer and stay stronger and more stiff than boats built of any other material you can think of.

Which brings me to Carina, a McCurdy and Rhodes Custom 48-same designer as our own Morgan's Cloud-that has just won the Newport Bermuda Race for the third time. Thing is, the first time Carina won, the leisure suit was in fashion&#8230;the year was 1970.

Carina won again in 2010, exactly forty years after her first win. And then again this year. And you know what Carina was doing between her second and third win? She sailed around the world clocking up 42,000 miles. And while she was at it, she did a few races&#8230;like The Trans-Atlantic, The Sydney Hobart and The Fastnet-not exactly known as walks in the park.

One tough old bird that aluminum boat&#8230;fast too.

I spoke with Rives Potts, who is not only Carina's owner and skipper, but also runs Pilots Point Marine. Rives has been involved in building and repairing many aluminum boats over the years. He had this to say:

-If an aluminum boat is built of the right alloys and the right welding rod is used, she will last essentially forever.

-The great thing about aluminum is that what you see is what you get-if you have a problem, you can see it.

-He has not had to make any structural repairs to Carina. And she shows no significant corrosion.
She is still incredibly stiff and strong after 43 years of hard voyaging and racing.

-And because Carina is stiff, she is still fast and it is much easier to keep the deck fittings and hatches watertight than it would be on a boat that flexes more.

-When he has seen corrosion damage on aluminum boats-usually the result of a wiring problem or an inaccessible area where debris has lain for years-it is confined to a small area and is easy to repair as good as new by cutting out the plate with a skill saw and welding in new plate. Just make sure you use the right alloy plate and the right welding rod.

-Repairs and modifications to an aluminum boat are easier [that means cheaper too] than they are on boats built of most other materials.

-The only real drawback of aluminum is keeping paint on it. But if the paint job is done right even that issue can be overcome."*

Why aluminum is the best building material for sailboats

Well, I would say that the biggest disadvantage is *price*, but that is another story

Also an interesting well know quote of Jimmy Cornell that after having tried all kindss of boats (and boat materials) to long distance voyage opted for aluminium.:

*Can aluminum compete with fiberglass as a production hull material?

Jimmy Cornell's Ocean Cruising Survey, a valuable indicator of trends among world-voyaging cruisers, shows that metal boats are on the increase. A metal hull was the number-one wish of those with other hull materials. "My next boat will be metal..." was heard over and over, particularly by those who were already cruising aboard a metal boat.

It is said among dedicated blue water cruisers in the South Pacific, "50% of the boats are metal; the rest of them are from the United States...." *

http://www.kastenmarine.com/aluminum.htm

and some more information about aluminum hulls, none of them regards the problems you mention (maybe you cab say what the marine credible source that sustain your negative opinion regarding aluminum boats):

http://www.berckemeyer-yacht.de/tex_construct.html

http://www.benford.us/articles/boatbuildingmaterials.html

http://www.kastenmarine.com/aluminum.htm

http://www.alumarine.fr/en/advantages-of-an-aluminum-boat.html

Regards

Paulo


----------



## BryceGTX

AlaskaMC said:


> I guess I am not sure I get the point you are making above. Sounds like you are bragging up our aluminum boat industry (I agree) but then trashing the material at the same time (and the European boat industry to boot).
> 
> Steel as well, but the weight issue is real.


The point I am trying to make is that there is an incredible amount of experience with aluminum boat builders in the US. Invariable the reason for building aluminum boats is the weight issue rather than strength. As you (and I) pointed out.
Bryce


----------



## BryceGTX

PCP said:


> and some more information about aluminum hulls, none of them regards the problems you mention (maybe you cab say what the marine credible source that sustain your negative opinion regarding aluminum boats):
> 
> yacht
> 
> Boatbuilding Materials - Articles - Benford Design Group
> 
> Aluminum For Boats
> 
> Advantages of an aluminum boat
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


So you are trying to convince us by showing us alumimum boat manufacturers and owners? Your sources are biased..

So what does the US Government say about Alum boats?

"Aluminum weapons systems are in widespread use throughout all services of the military. Unfortunately, more and more failures of aluminum due to corrosion are being reported. "

Aluminum Equipment Failures in Coastal and Marine Environments

How about this 144 footer that failed in 1 month??

"Nichols discovered the cracks in the Jet Cat's hull after the boat's owner, Catalina Express, noticed the aluminum on the boat discoloring. Just a month after the 144-foot boat was launched by Nichols in April, the problem caught the attention of the company's engineers. Metallurgy tests showed that the aluminum was defoiling wherever it was in contact with salt water. Cracks near the Jet Cat's engine room were so large that water had begun to seep into the boat."

Cracks in aluminum boat's hull cause concern at Nichols - South Whidbey Record

Here is what the everyday guy says about alum boats:
"I have a crack in my boat. The boat is a flat bottom boat and the crack is where the side meets the bottom. I am sure that the crack can be welded no problems and stop the leak. I am drawing a blank on who to take it to to have it welded up tho. The crack is about 9 inches long"

Aluminum Boat Repair

Then there is this guy:
"The boat has been in use constantly, most likely with these welds cracked for many years"

Aluminum boat - Cracked welds - Page 1 - 367412

Here is another guy: 
"What I found are 17- 2" welds over a 10ft. length from passenger console to bow broken. "

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/metal-boat-building/broken-welds-7345.html

The Marinette Forum:

"Check the hull first before you decide to weld. Aluminum hull percussion sounding or ultra-sounding can cost $20.00 per foot to find flaws, ask a surveyor who knows this stuff. 
If it feels deeply pitted, it's too far gone, see below. A small patch is usually just fine. "

http://www.marinetteboat.com/Metals.htm

Another discussion about older alum boats:
"Many times I have seen older riveted alum. boats crack along and near the rivets. I don't think that the crack can be repaired."

http://glen-l.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4672

This one even has pictures:
"Here are pics of the crack. If anyone can please share on any reinforcement tips and how anyone repaired a cracked aluminum transom. Thanks everyone."

http://www.screamandfly.com/showthr...um-transom-need-help-for-repair-reinforcement

Lets see what wikipedia has to say:
"One important structural limitation of aluminium alloys is their fatigue strength. Unlike steels, aluminium alloys have no well-defined fatigue limit, meaning that fatigue failure eventually occurs, under even very small cyclic loadings. This implies that engineers must assess these loads and design for a fixed life rather than an infinite life."

Aluminium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For every post you can find positive about aluminum boats, I can find a hundred that talk about fatigue cracks in any alum boat of every size imaginable. I am one of those guys with a 12 foot alum/glass fishing boats with fatigue cracks in the alum seats.

Now I can easily also go out and find glowing reports on wood, steel, fiberglass or concrete. But we can also point out the negative aspects of these materials.

I think my most fundamental point is, consider that every building material has some particular issue. Aluminum is no different. The way I see it.. the most attractive aspect of aluminum is its light weight.
Bryce


----------



## PCP

BryceGTX said:


> So you are trying to convince us by showing us alumimum boat manufacturers and owners? Your sources are biased..
> 
> So what does the US Government say about Alum boats?
> 
> "*Aluminum weapons systems* are in widespread use throughout all services of the military. Unfortunately, more and more failures of aluminum due to corrosion are being reported. "
> 
> Aluminum Equipment Failures in Coastal and Marine Environments
> 
> How about this *144 footer* that failed in 1 month??
> 
> "Nichols discovered the cracks in the *Jet Cat's hull* after the boat's owner, Catalina Express, noticed the aluminum on the boat discoloring. Just a month after the 144-foot boat was launched by Nichols in April, the problem caught the attention of the company's engineers. Metallurgy tests showed that the aluminum was defoiling wherever it was in contact with salt water. Cracks near the Jet Cat's engine room were so large that water had begun to seep into the boat."
> 
> Cracks in aluminum boat's hull cause concern at Nichols - South Whidbey Record
> 
> .....
> Bryce


Hummm, I get your point. It is because Aluminum is a ****ty material for boat building that *" 50% of boats in America are built from aluminum".* It makes sense

The Advantages of Having an Aluminum Boat |

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

BryceGTX said:


> The point I am trying to make is that there is an incredible amount of experience with aluminum boat builders in the US. Invariable the reason for building aluminum boats is the weight issue rather than strength. As you (and I) pointed out.
> Bryce


Of curse, everybody knows that a sail boat should be as light as possible and as strong as possible. Light and strong is not an attribute that is good only on sailboats, many other type of boats have advantages to be light and strong and that's why so many boats are built in Aluminum in the US and everywhere.

I guess that everybody knows that weight for weight Aluminum is considerably stronger than steel.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## BryceGTX

PCP said:


> Hummm, I get your point. It is because Aluminum is a ****ty material for boat building that *" 50% of boats in America are built from aluminum".* It makes sense
> 
> The Advantages of Having an Aluminum Boat |
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


No the boats are built of aluminum because the goal was to produce a light boat that could be trailered.
Bryce



PCP said:


> That does not make sense an aluminium boat is not lighter than a cored fiberglass boat and a fiberglass boat is less expensive.


You are kidding right?


----------



## PCP

BryceGTX said:


> No the boats are built of aluminum because the goal was to produce a light boat that could be trailered.
> Bryce


That does not make sense an aluminium boat is not lighter than a cored fiberglass boat and a fiberglass boat is less expensive.

They are made from aluminum because they are as lighter as cored fiberglass boats and *stronger*. Heavy duty fishing boats are the ones made with aluminum, many used professionally.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## BryceGTX

Stumble said:


> I always find it interesting that people raise concerns about the fatigue life of aluminium, but no one ever raises the issue with fiberglass. Given that fiberglass has the same fatigue problems as aluminium it seems more of a theoretical problem than an actual one, so long as the boat is properly designed in the first place.


There is a good reason people who know are concerned with fatigue life of aluminum.. because it is aluminums most critical issue. And it fatigue failures are thousands of well documented real-life fatigue cracks that show up in a multitude of aluminum products.

There is a simple solution.. subject your product to fatigue tests. That is what the airline manufacturers and auto manufacturers do.

On the other hand, the fatigue life of something like steel is so well defined that you can build a product, and predict its life with software on a computer.

The way I see fiberglass is that there is not such widespread fatigue failure in fiberglass based on experiences of people. Rather fiberglass failure seems most often due to core failure or impact damage. The study below suggests that fiberglass fatigue might be predicted using steel type predictions.

Although I am sure some structural test engineers would cringe at the test setup these guys used.. its an interesting read.

www.usna.edu/Users/naome/phmiller/fatigue.ppt

Bryce


----------



## AlaskaMC

BryceGTX said:


> The point I am trying to make is that there is an incredible amount of experience with aluminum boat builders in the US. Invariable the reason for building aluminum boats is the weight issue rather than strength. As you (and I) pointed out.
> Bryce


Bryce,

Actually, that was not my point. Weight AND durability are the reasons aluminum boats are popular in Alaska. Jet boats going up stream in very rocky water, sometimes jumping beaver dams or skimming over shoals that are out of the water for example. And, offshore it is the same thing. Weight AND durability is the issue. These things take MAJOR beatings that a fiberglass boat would not even make it 100 yards from the launch.

Just don't want to be misquoted as I was pointing out that when you want durability and weight savings then aluminum is really one of the few choices.


----------



## Tanley

Captain Q, found this the other day. No affiliation but she looks to be well found.

Balance for sale

As an aside, are you sailing Cayuga lake now? Grew up in that area, beautiful part of the country.


----------



## CaptainQuiet

Tanley, Thanks for the link. That's a big one. Not sure what I would do with all that space. Any idea why they are selling?


----------



## CaptainQuiet

Tanley, forgot your other question. 
I've enjoyed the lake much this summer in the best scenerio possible- on other people's boats. Love doing that. With our one year old and a busy work year we kept our Tartan 37 on the hard up in Beacon Bay marina at the north end of the lake. I think it's a bit too much for the lake and I'm going to either take it up the east coast or to the great lakes for some more extended cruise time in the summer.


----------



## BryceGTX

PCP said:


> That does not make sense an aluminium boat is not lighter than a cored fiberglass boat and a fiberglass boat is less expensive.
> Paulo


NO ENGINES:
16 Foot Boston Whaler cored fiberglass, 950 pounds, $25,000
16 Foot Keylargo Fiber glass, 975 pounds, $10,000
16 Foot Duroboat Aluminum, 350 pounds, $4999

Looks like Aluminum is 1/3 weight and 1/2 price.
Bryce


----------



## BryceGTX

PCP said:


> I guess that everybody knows that weight for weight Aluminum is considerably stronger than steel.





AlaskaMC said:


> And, offshore it is the same thing. Weight AND durability is the issue. These things take MAJOR beatings that a fiberglass boat would not even make it 100 yards from the launch.


Durability is a broad subject. The specific issue of durability I refer to is one of fatigue strength. This has little to do with other metrics of strength. Many who think aluminum is stronger than Steel invariably compare alloy aluminum with mild steel. Clearly alloyed steels can easily be 5-10 times stronger than aluminum.

Fatigue strength, on the other hand refers to a stuctures ability to resist bending/vibration. Even the alloyed aluminum is rarely a match for steel in fatigue strength given the same size.

I have also seen an interesting  discussion of impact resistance of fiberglass versus other materials. It argues the point impact such as a rock hit or bowling ball or sledge hammer is representative of the distributed force of a wave on a hull. Seems to mirror your discussion. The way I see it, they are unrelated. Besides the problem of point impact not translating to distributed force by a reasonable model, in the very least, such tests fail to consider fatigue.

Bryce


----------



## BryceGTX

PCP said:


> Light and strong is not an attribute that is good only on sailboats, many other type of boats have advantages to be light and strong and that's why so many boats are built in Aluminum in the US and everywhee.
> 
> Paulo


Lets assume that aluminum is the best boat building material. It is light, strong, doesn't rust, reasonable cost. Clearly in a free market economy, a material like aluminum, given its great advantages must be the boat building material of choice.

So lets look at reality. Millions of millions of small aluminum boats have been built in the US and more being built every day. This means millions upon millions of consumers experienced with aluminum boats.

Like all boaters, these millions of small aluminum boat buyers dream of their next boat. And of course it will be bigger. Clearly these incredibly knowledgeable buyers represent millions of years of experience with aluminum boats.

And since they realize the fantastic advantages of aluminum boats they obviously buy another aluminum boat right?? Here is the problem, the number of manufacturers of aluminum boats drops to only a few for boats 25 feet and above. On the other hand, the number of fiberglass boat manufacturers is in the hundreds.

Clearly, the these boaters are buying fiberglass boats when they upgraded!!! And these buyers are clearly spending considerably more for the boat than if it were aluminum. Question then becomes, why are these millions of buyers not following the PCP economic model of aluminum boat buying? Why aren't they buying big aluminum boats?
Bryce


----------



## lans0012

Gotta chime in on why people go from small aluminum boats to relatively larger fiberglass one's especially fishing boats. I'm from MN and have had both. Now I've converted to sailing a 27' fiberglass boat on Tampa Bay. 

Aluminum fishing boats...ie Lund, Alumacraft, are less expensive than a similar sized fiberglass boat. They are easy to trailer so you can take it with your light truck or crossover SUV to whichever of the 10k lakes in MN you want to fish that day.

Since they are lighter they ride really rough. Eventually the walleye or bass fisherman get's tired of taking a pounding and buys a bigger truck and a fiberglass fishing boat. They are not at all concerned about hitting a submerged shipping container and sinking 1000 miles out in the ocean. They do care about how much drier the ride is on the heavier boat. 

Do what I'm saying is that you're not comparing apples to apples. I do wonder sometimes why they don't build smaller aluminum sailboats though.


----------



## PCP

BryceGTX said:


> NO ENGINES:
> 16 Foot Boston Whaler cored fiberglass, 950 pounds, $25,000
> 16 Foot Keylargo Fiber glass, 975 pounds, $10,000
> 16 Foot Duroboat Aluminum, 350 pounds, $4999
> 
> Looks like Aluminum is 1/3 weight and 1/2 price.
> Bryce


So you think these boats are comparable?

















Key Largo Fishing Boats
Key Largo Fishing Boats
Duroboat - The World's Finest Aluminum Fishing Boats

A Boston whaler with 16ft does not even exist. Exist a 150 (15' 4'') and a 170(17') and nobody would remember to compare these boats with the Duroboat except you

Boston Whaler | Super Sport Boats | Sport Boats | Fishing | Wakeboarding | Yacht Tender

As usual it is impossible to have a serious discussion with you, or maybe it is my fault, anyway stay with your point that seems to be that the Aluminum boats are cheaper than fiberglass boats and have not only serious problems in what regards metal fatigue as they will not last as long as fiberglass boats.

I guess that explains why on the used market a 20 year old aluminum boat has a value of about the double of a fiberglass boat and I am not talking about luxurious boats with exceptional interiors but about good cruising boats

I am out of this thread that is about steel boats, that as all adequate materials to build boats have advantages and disadvantages, not about aluminum boats and I have already talked to much out of topic. My apologies to the OP.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## BryceGTX

PCP said:


> A Boston whaler with 16ft does not even exist. Exist a 150 (15' 4'') and a 170(17') and nobody would remember to compare these boats with the Duroboat except you
> 
> Paulo


Boston Whaler made a number of 16 foot boats. On the other hand, their 16 foot boats are considerably wider than the Aluminum boat I mention. Not a good comparison. However the 15'4" boat is only a bit wider and slightly shorter making a better boat to compare to. Perhaps if you had looked closer, you would have noticed.

The way I see it, Boston Whaler represents the "Gold Standard" in cored hulled fiberglass boat. So its inclusion makes sense.
Bryce


----------



## BryceGTX

lans0012 said:


> Gotta chime in on why people go from small aluminum boats to relatively larger fiberglass one's especially fishing boats. I'm from MN and have had both. Now I've converted to sailing a 27' fiberglass boat on Tampa Bay.
> 
> Aluminum fishing boats...ie Lund, Alumacraft, are less expensive than a similar sized fiberglass boat. They are easy to trailer so you can take it with your light truck or crossover SUV to whichever of the 10k lakes in MN you want to fish that day.
> 
> Since they are lighter they ride really rough. Eventually the walleye or bass fisherman get's tired of taking a pounding and buys a bigger truck and a fiberglass fishing boat. They are not at all concerned about hitting a submerged shipping container and sinking 1000 miles out in the ocean. They do care about how much drier the ride is on the heavier boat.


This is exactly the answer I was looking for. Your experience with aluminum boats mirrors my experience and likewise that of most aluminum boat owners.

It clearly illustrates why big aluminum boats are not popular. And it goes directly to the root of the discussion of this thread. The OP clearly mentions both aluminum and steel boats. He is looking for the experienced opinion of metal boat owners.
Bryce


----------



## xymotic

BryceGTX said:


> This is exactly the answer I was looking for. Your experience with aluminum boats mirrors my experience and likewise that of most aluminum boat owners.
> 
> It clearly illustrates why big aluminum boats are not popular. And it goes directly to the root of the discussion of this thread. The OP clearly mentions both aluminum and steel boats. He is looking for the experienced opinion of metal boat owners.
> Bryce


Not the case here in the Pacific Northwest where we have lots of floating logs and stuff to hit. Aluminium is the preferred premium boat over FG in all sizes.

The USCG safeboats are made here and most guys round here would kill for something like this 1997 Sea Master 28 Cruiser Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Money is the only thing keeping FG 'popular' round these parts. When you go to alaska where it's even rougher, and they do have more money, ALum easilly outnumbers FG.


----------



## cherev

Brent Swain said:


> One of the big advantages of steel is zero deck leaks, ever, as welding down your hardware eliminates any chance of them ever leaking. No matter how rough it gets, you always have a dry bunk to sleep in at the end of the day, on a well insulated steel boat. There is no way you can get bolted down gear on a fibreglass deck that's permanently water proof, with zero chance of leaking. Fibreglass decks always end up leaking, eventually.
> There is no way you can get a fibreglass boat as impact resistant as a steel hull. That is why so many former fibreglass boat cruisers tend to gravitate towards steel. The increase in peace of mind, when blasting along at hull speed on a moonless night, in a steel hull, has to be experienced to be appreciated.


'Many former' is an gross exaggeration. Most yachties expire leaving a fiberglass legacy. Nor are most sailors circumnavigators or transoceanic sailors. Most rarely get out of sight of land.

A steel cleat welded to a sunken hull with rusted holes might not leak, ever. Let the divers boggle. Impact resistance is actually a function of flexibility, not hardness. Unless we're talking a turret on a tank. I smell a mania, or a greedy agenda. But let freedom ring.

Maintenance is a given with any physical thing, whether it's a house, a vessel, or an auto. Or even a human body. So one must sometimes re-bed a cleat or other thru-deck attachment, big stinking deal - at least it's where you can detect and work with the problem without having to haul the hull.

Steel has its place in industrial hulls and like applications. But for someone who just wants to enjoy sailing with fewer worries, fiberglass is the way to go. There's new 'wonder glues' that essentially 'weld', melting the glass into an hermetic bond, for those wishing to seal their decks.

I have suffered with wooden toe-rails on a glass deck, so I know that mixing dissimilar materials, regardless of what they are, is a formula for trouble. Teak laminates may be pretty, but that glue dries out under tropic suns.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> With a skilled owner and good tools, I've put together a 36 ft hull in two days or tacked together the shell( Hull, decks, wheelhouse, cabin, cockpit keel and skeg ) in 6 days.
> 
> When the cost of steel to build a 36 was around $4K ,the cost of aluminium to build the same boat was around $20K, and aluminium welding equipment was far more expensive . You can only weld aluminium outside in a dead calm, in dry weather. Aluminium welds are only 60% the strength of the surrounding metal, whereas steel welds are 100% , demand far less skill, and are far harder to screw up on.
> 
> On my steel 31 footer, maintenance cost has averaged around 2 hours a year, and less than $50 a year.
> 
> It's not displacement alone which makes a boat too slow .It's the displacement to sail area . Heavier boat, more sail.


So now that I'm doing more research your boats Brent, and being repeatedly accused of saying stuff I never said, I'm beginning to wonder about most of your claims.

Here's what I mean. You talk about an entire boat exterior you can knock out in a week.

That's cool, but let's look at some facts...

Here's a very informative website about a guy building a 74 foot origami steeler named S/V Seeker, modeled after a 65-footer you helped put together (Paul L's boat which we'll get to in a minute):

http://www.submarineboat.com/sailboat.htm

Looks like the guy definitely has the right tools, and definitely knows his way around steel. And he sounds like a very nice, motivated, intelligent guy in the videos. So why has it taken him 5 years to get to this point?










And he says he still has another 3+ years to go. Sure, it's a bigger boat, but according to your timeframe above, and allowing for the bigger scale, shouldn't he have been at this point in 4-6 weeks?

8 YEARS before they can sail a single nautical mile??

Tens of thousands of dollars worth of tools and equipment and very evident experience - but he can't work the Swain magic? What is he doing wrong, Brent?

It's not like he and his wife didn't research. Like I said above, they visited this other guy's 65'er before getting started:










It was a boat that you apparently worked on too Brent...










I'm sure you helped them pull that whole thing together in a few days. But after several years more work, which, again, is mystifying according to your claimed timing for your boats, they're still not done!

What are they doing wrong, Brent? I don't get it.

Of course, I also see you talk about how owners absolutely love these oragami steel boats and how the value increases exponentially over time. It all sounds pretty incredible. So, they're obviously close enough to the big payoff of FINALLY getting out and fulfilling the dream of cheap cruising that you promised them in a boat that they love and that has tremendous value...










Ohhhh. That's unfortunate.

Well, at least when one of your clients DOES get it right and actually makes it out onto that beautiful ocean and into their cruising dreams, they can do it VERY cheaply due to the incredibly low maintenance of one of your boats - 2 hours and $50. Take "Nothin' Wong" for example. A fine yacht:










Well, okay, pretty rough around the edges.

What's funny, is the couple on that same site ACTUALLY SAILED on "Nothin' Wong". Here's their glowing review of that nicely maintained Brent Boat:

http://www.submarineboat.com/nuthin_wong.htm

Ouch. We'll I suppose I can see how one can actually get to 2 hours and $50 when foregoing plumbing and having the cockpit seats and a bucket serve as the head...










...or not worrying about a cracked mast...










...or using exposed bicycle chain and bungee cords as your steering system. It is all definitely inventive. And, I can definitely see how it's extremely easy on the cruising kitty.

Looks like the Skipper of the Wong is following your maintenance lead perfectly. Yes, once you get out there - it's all cheap and easy...



> Maintaining a 15m steel boat costs a lot of money which the contributions Clive asks to the travellers don't cover entirely.


Ohhh. Well, at least they have a great looking, great sailing yacht, right? Ahem.

Brent, this is all directly from the friends and acquaintances you like to quote so often. I don't understand. It's supposed to be much more magical than this, right?

Hmmmm.


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## bobperry

Ouch!
My eyes are bleeding.
I think in this case a picture is better than all of Brent's words.
I stopped reading when I got ot the "finger and a bucket of water".


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## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Ouch!
> My eyes are bleeding.
> I think in this case a picture is better than all of Brent's words.
> I stopped reading when I got ot the "finger and a bucket of water".


Here you go Bob. This should help:

http://www.mgtowforums.com/forums/attachments/****s-n-giggles/3133d1361787492-online-dating-comedy-goldmine-2-h-eye-bleach-silo.jpg


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## jak3b

smackdaddy said:


> Here you go Bob. This should help:
> 
> http://www.mgtowforums.com/forums/attachments/****s-n-giggles/3133d1361787492-online-dating-comedy-goldmine-2-h-eye-bleach-silo.jpg


 "I reckon Winston's 15 days from BC tro Hawaiii is reasonable for a heavily loaded 36, as is Andy's 14 days. When Pearl Song left Cabo, she covered 1106 miles in 6 days hard on the wind, then broke the top 1/3rd of his wooden mast off, and still beat a gazelle to Hawai under jury rig,which had left the same time as him. When Quadra Island barber Mike Louckes cruised in company with a benteau, he was always arriving long before the benny, despite being very heavily loaded. When the first 2 -36 foters I built went out on race day in San diego, they left some of the race boats far behind, despite being heavily loaded. You could tell which was the skipper . He was the only one without a smirk on his face.
Again Bob . Could you tell us of all the offshore cruising you had done before calling yourself a designer? We are still waiting.
Could you tell us why, with so many super cheap and sound fg sailboats on the market, and even being given away, why someone would pay you decades worth of cruising funds, just to to draw pictures of one?"

And ya better get a pair of these

'cause it just keeps getting deeper


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## bobperry

"When the first 2 -36 foters I built went out on race day in San diego, they left some of the race boats far behind,"

This is a total crock! You are delusional. Unless you mean your boats beat a few Sabots and Lido 14's. That I would accept. My FT10m would literally sail circles around any of your boats effortlessly. What proof can you offer for your claim? Race results?

Do you think the rest of us know nothing about the capabilities of modern racing yachts? You truly must think us stupid. But I think we have that well established.


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## blt2ski

Maybe the race boats had there storm sails up as practice or requirement for the first 10 miles, after than they blew by them!

Saw an older full keel gaff schooner trying to sail thru cattle pass yesterday. he got thru, but with no wind, and a 3 knot current pushing him. After that, pretty slow looking vs a more modern sloop sailing in 8-10 knots of breeze across the straight. Not sure what the final distance difference was, as I went west to deception pass.

Probably an hr or two or three in 20 miles!

Marty


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## JomsViking

Cruisers like Nothing Wong are the ones giving us (other cruisers) a bad name around the World. Have met the type myself and they constantly scrounged tools, help, meals etc. - Even though I obviously were living on a shoestring myself, that type never returned the favor, nor the tools. 

Brent is clearly delusional, saying the 2 hours and 50 bucks a year can keep a steel boat in good nick - unless he's an idle thieving bast... similar to the type discussed above. 
Remember Brent, I've worked on a steel fisherman - when we were not fishing we were forever cleaning, sanding, and painting - Admitting that they probably had a rougher life than most, it is still applicable to cruisers.

Guess your answer will be that they were not put together in 2 days using origami karate man of steel methods thus were inferior quality and that we were stupid to trust our lives to the skipper and boat.

Luckily - I guess - the insane ramblings of Mr. Swain has put more people of his boats, unluckily it may impact well built steel boats as well.

/Joms


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## bobperry

Joms:
Remember Brent thinks we believe:
"When the first 2 -36 foters I built went out on race day in San diego, they left some of the race boats far behind,"

So, if he think we belive that then we should belive you can maintain your steel boat for 2 hours and $50 a year. Hold on,,,is that $50 Canadian? $50 a year wouldn't maintain my own 26'er. I needed at least $53.

In short, his claim is another absurd lie.
Reminds me of that old R&B tune, I PITY THE FOOL.


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## smackdaddy

At the same time, disregarding the inswain ramblings, I actually like these S/V Seeker folks a lot:

http://www.submarineboat.com/sailboat.htm

I've watched several of the videos regarding their build. They're doing it - when it obviously ain't easy. I definitely respect that.


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## bobperry

Smackers:
Those are fun videos to watch. I admire the guy.


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## Brent Swain

Pauls boat is taking him forever because it is a 57 footer, not a 36 footer, far more complex multi chine, not my single chine, and definitely not a shape I would ever design.Paul ended up married to a landlubber, and so the boat goes for months sometimes years, with nothing being done on her. Do your boats finish themselves if left out in the rain long enough?
(Abuse deleted)
I leave the lying to those who tell people it is worth their expense to pay them decades worth of cruising funds to draw pictures for them.
I only helped Clive get the shell of Nuthin Wong together,from an old Chinese design he gave me, not my design, for a trade, the rest was his department, not mine. Bob ,do you have complete control over how your boats end up being maintained and used? Nuthin Wong just spent 4 1/2 months on a reef in Panama, pounded by ocean swells, zero hull damage. How long would one of to your dainty little plastic things have lasted in those conditions.
I gave my 31 footer,30 gallons of epoxy at the outset, inside and out, along with a lot of marine enamel. All outside corners are trimed with stainless. I that the case with the other boats whioch people are complaining about maintenance on? Commercial boats often get a couple of coats of tremclad outside , zero paint inside,then complain about maintenance.
My 29 year od paint job is as good as the day I put it on, except for the odd paint chip, where I do my 2 hours year on touch up. Any time you have serious problems in the middle of a flat spot on a steel hull , your paint was not thick enough to begin with. Any time you can see the weld pattern thru the paint, it was not thick enough to begin with.
Most maintenance problems on steel boats are caused by inadequate cleaning and sandblasting of the steel and not enough epoxy over it. When a boat gets to that stage , sandblasting and at least 5 coats of epoxy tar on the outside three inside and a UV resistant coat over that wil eliminate most of the maintenace for decades.


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## bobperry

Brent I have explained exactly how you have lied over and over. Please do me the favor and in accurate quotes show me where I lied. If you can't provide the quotes the STFU.

"Nuthin Wong just spent 4 1/2 months on a reef in Panama, " I'm sure it did. Seems a common theme with your boats. You seem proud of it.

I am beginning formulate a theory as to why so many of Brents boats are docuented as spending time on the rocks.


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## mark2gmtrans

bobperry said:


> Ouch!
> My eyes are bleeding.
> I think in this case a picture is better than all of Brent's words.
> I stopped reading when I got ot the "finger and a bucket of water".


Yeah...because by then you were laughing too hard to read anymore...


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## Brent Swain

Clives Time on a med reef is documented in his last book "No Fixed Address" A good read ,hard to put down. His time on the Panama reef in Boca de Toros will be covered in his next book. Or if you know anyone in Bocan de Toros, they can confirm it. A "Friend" who he left to look after her, towed it on the reef so his friends could strip her. He had to stay in Canada to get his pension in order. They only recently got her off.
I'l ask him to post the videos here when I get in contact with him again.
Bob you are a liar when you claim that a carbon fibre rudder at huge expense is a good idea for the average cruiser, when you claim that style over substance is a good priority fir the average cruiser,or you claim that you actually earn the $34000 for drawing pictures of boats , when some can buy a whole boat and go cruising for a year for less money,and you give this advice with little or no offshore cruising experience and zero hands on boatbuilding expereince. You lie when you imply that with zero experience owning and maintaining a steel boat, you know more about the costs of doing so, than someone who has owned, designed, built and maintained steel boats for 37 years. Then you follow it up with the childish, adolecent jeering of a 13 year old .


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## Brent Swain

Aluminium boaters have a constant struggle finding effective antifouling which wont eat their boats with electrolysis. My aluminium dinghy got so hoit in Tonga that I had to paint the back of the bottom white so it wouldnt burn my feet. Freinds living on a bare aluminium boat there had to wait til 3 am before it cooled down enough to let them sleep. 
Steel has mnore rust problems above the waterline where you can se it . Aluminiumn has more corrosion problems below the waterline, where it takes you by surprise and happens much more quickly when it does.
Waterline yachts built some of the few properly built steel boats here, at horrendous prices, due to outdated building methods.
Amazons were 10 guiage plate welded one side only , and most of that weld ground off for cosmetic reasons, leaving the thickness of a beer can to hold things together, Stringers were held in one case at least, by a half inch tack every three feet. Eric and ex cop I knew, bought one on the conditioin that there be no primer put on. They primed it anyway and when he blasted it, he found very thick filler, the only thing which made her fair .


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## bobperry

Brent:
Chill. You are making stuff up again.

I'll say it slowly:
Provide me with the exact quote where I "lie" and then we can discuss it. I want to see the quote. Not your BS interpritation of it.

My reality is just fine. I have no need to lie. What do I have to prove? I've done it. Been there and I have so many of the T shirts.

It's Sunday night.
Steaks are marinating in a Kalbi sauce
Crabbing was good today so I will have crab on my saled and crab for breakfast. (Truth be told I like MacDonalds egg/sausage/cheese/Mcgriddle).
I am a weak man.

I don't really think I want tp spend the rest of a beautiful Sunday arguing with angry little Brent.

CBC 2 is on. Randy Bachman's show is about to begin.
I'm as happy as I can possibly be considering the light of my life is gone.
Now there was a steel worker. A true artist in steel.


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## jak3b

It's Sunday night.
Steaks are marinating in a Kalbi sauce
Crabbing was good today so I will have crab on my saled and crab for breakfast. (Truth be told I like MacDonalds egg/sausage/cheese/Mcgriddle).
I am a weak man.

Oh its all good Bob.Any kimchi and have you tried the bacon chalupa from KFC?.Its a weapon of mass destruction.


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## tdw

Peoples .... please stop the "liar" business. Claim specific statements are untrue by all means but don't call others "liars". 

Do carry on.

Andrew B


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## bobperry

Jak:
I love kimchee. I have a client who is married to a Korean gal, Bokhee. He sister makes kimchee. He radish kimchee is marvelous.

I have to admit that stuck up here at the shack my lunch menu is minimal. So,,,I buy Top Ramen. I know, I know, but if you add some green onions left over meat (anykind) some brocolli, spinach and a big wad of kimchee on top along with some Chinese chili paste it can be quite satisfying.

I am a simple man.


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## tdw

Love Kimchi in all its varieties. Korean family opened a restaurant just down the road from us a couple of years back and it has become a Wombat stamping ground. 

I flew Korean Air last time I went to Europe and if you get a touch peckish in the middle of the night they'll bring you a bowl of Bipimbap. How good is that ?


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## jak3b

Yup Kimchi is wonderful.Hey dont worry Bob they eat top Ramon all over East and south east Asia.It has different names but its the same thing.And thats exactly how they cook it.Good on ya.


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## jak3b

I flew to Korea on Asiana.Great airline,great service.They had some bad luck here yesterday.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Pauls boat is taking him forever because it is a 57 footer, not a 36 footer, far more complex multi chine, not my single chine, and definitely not a shape I would ever design.Paul ended up married to a landlubber, and so the boat goes for months sometimes years, with nothing being done on her. Do your boats finish themselves if left out in the rain long enough?
> (Abuse deleted)
> I leave the lying to those who tell people it is worth their expense to pay them decades worth of cruising funds to draw pictures for them.
> I only helped Clive get the shell of Nuthin Wong together,from an old Chinese design he gave me, not my design, for a trade, the rest was his department, not mine. Bob ,do you have complete control over how your boats end up being maintained and used? Nuthin Wong just spent 4 1/2 months on a reef in Panama, pounded by ocean swells, zero hull damage. How long would one of to your dainty little plastic things have lasted in those conditions.
> I gave my 31 footer,30 gallons of epoxy at the outset, inside and out, along with a lot of marine enamel. All outside corners are trimed with stainless. I that the case with the other boats whioch people are complaining about maintenance on? Commercial boats often get a couple of coats of tremclad outside , zero paint inside,then complain about maintenance.
> My 29 year od paint job is as good as the day I put it on, except for the odd paint chip, where I do my 2 hours year on touch up. Any time you have serious problems in the middle of a flat spot on a steel hull , your paint was not thick enough to begin with. Any time you can see the weld pattern thru the paint, it was not thick enough to begin with.
> Most maintenance problems on steel boats are caused by inadequate cleaning and sandblasting of the steel and not enough epoxy over it. When a boat gets to that stage , sandblasting and at least 5 coats of epoxy tar on the outside three inside and a UV resistant coat over that wil eliminate most of the maintenace for decades.


Remember Porky Pig rolling on the ground laughing? That's me.

You are pretty funny dude. I will definitely give you that.

As I've always said, I do respect your ingenuity and recycling approach. Absolutely. But I no longer believe _anything_ you say about your oragami boats.

As far as I'm concerned, building a steel boat is a great thing to do if the owner wants it - and knows what he's getting into in terms of the substantial technical, financial and time requirements involved. The S/V Seeker folks show that.

But for that Cruiser Wannabe to know what they're getting into, I certainly don't think they should listen your very questionable pitch as given in these threads. There's too much evidence out there to the contrary.

Mmmmm. Kimchi.


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## JomsViking

What Mediterranean reef?

While not exactly a tree-hugger, and against too much regulation, I DO believe that we should take care of Mother Earth, and the skipper of Nothing Wong is apparently trying his best to destroy reefs and leak Diesel everywhere so should be stopped.

/Joms



Brent Swain said:


> Clives Time on a med reef is documented in his last book "No Fixed Address" A good read ,hard to put down. His time on the Panama reef in Boca de Toros will be covered in his next book. Or if you know anyone in Bocan de Toros, they can confirm it. A "Friend" who he left to look after her, towed it on the reef so his friends could strip her. He had to stay in Canada to get his pension in order. They only recently got her off.
> I'l ask him to post the videos here when I get in contact with him again.
> Bob you are a liar when you claim that a carbon fibre rudder at huge expense is a good idea for the average cruiser, when you claim that style over substance is a good priority fir the average cruiser,or you claim that you actually earn the $34000 for drawing pictures of boats , when some can buy a whole boat and go cruising for a year for less money,and you give this advice with little or no offshore cruising experience and zero hands on boatbuilding expereince. You lie when you imply that with zero experience owning and maintaining a steel boat, you know more about the costs of doing so, than someone who has owned, designed, built and maintained steel boats for 37 years. Then you follow it up with the childish, adolecent jeering of a 13 year old .


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## JomsViking

The predicted answer to: "_Guess your answer will be that they were not put together in 2 days using origami karate man of steel methods thus were inferior quality and that we were stupid to trust our lives to the skipper and boat._" Won't introduce you to the old man then, cause he'd rip your head clean off. She was built to the highest standards and the old man knew his stuff, being out of a Family of fishermen AND boatbuilders.



Brent Swain said:


> Pauls boat is taking him forever because it is a 57 footer, not a 36 footer, far more complex multi chine, not my single chine, and definitely not a shape I would ever design.Paul ended up married to a landlubber, and so the boat goes for months sometimes years, with nothing being done on her. Do your boats finish themselves if left out in the rain long enough?
> (Abuse deleted)
> I leave the lying to those who tell people it is worth their expense to pay them decades worth of cruising funds to draw pictures for them.
> I only helped Clive get the shell of Nuthin Wong together,from an old Chinese design he gave me, not my design, for a trade, the rest was his department, not mine. Bob ,do you have complete control over how your boats end up being maintained and used? Nuthin Wong just spent 4 1/2 months on a reef in Panama, pounded by ocean swells, zero hull damage. How long would one of to your dainty little plastic things have lasted in those conditions.
> I gave my 31 footer,30 gallons of epoxy at the outset, inside and out, along with a lot of marine enamel. All outside corners are trimed with stainless. I that the case with the other boats whioch people are complaining about maintenance on? *Commercial boats often get a couple of coats of tremclad outside , zero paint inside,then complain about maintenance*.
> My 29 year od paint job is as good as the day I put it on, except for the odd paint chip, where I do my 2 hours year on touch up. Any time you have serious problems in the middle of a flat spot on a steel hull , your paint was not thick enough to begin with. Any time you can see the weld pattern thru the paint, it was not thick enough to begin with.
> Most maintenance problems on steel boats are caused by inadequate cleaning and sandblasting of the steel and not enough epoxy over it. When a boat gets to that stage , sandblasting and at least 5 coats of epoxy tar on the outside three inside and a UV resistant coat over that wil eliminate most of the maintenace for decades.


Don't think our problem with Nuthin Wong was the designed looks of it, but the evident lack of maintenance and general outfit. It 's quite obvious why it hits reefs all the time - It's not a sailing boat, it's an extremely badly maintained hulk of a motorboat with token masts.
/Joms


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## Brent Swain

Clive has hit two reefs in 21 years of full time cruising around the world, one in the Balerics when he was aboard and one when he was thousands of miles away, and thief towed her onto a reef. Of the 38 boats I have built, the same number by Evan and all the many others people built for themselves, only 5 have had major collisions with reefs and lee shores . Sure, lots of people do circumnavigations in plastic and wooden boats with no problems . Some dissapear without a trace. One plastic boat I was tied to for a month, hit a container off Costa Rica and sunk in minutes, something which wouldnt have happened had she been steel. The owner immediately began planning to build in steel. 
You can disregard the comments of Bob Perry anbd Smackdaddy, neither of whom has any experence in cruising in and maintaining a steel boat, yet both of whom claim to know more about the subject than someone who has built 38 steel boats and has maintained his own steel boats for 37 years. A sistership to Smackdaddys boat anchored in front of me last nite, a catalina 27, six inch side decks cluttered by chainplates , knee high super thin stainless stanchions held down by three tiny bolts each, with plastic coated wire lifelines a recipe for crevice corrosion. Definitely not intelligent design, chosen by someone displaying a similar abysmal lack of intelligence.
While many are out happily cruising in steel boats down to 26 feet, making passages times in the same time frame as most plastic boats, self proclaimed "Experts " on steel boats, who have zero expereince in the subject at hand, are declaring it "Wont work in smaller boats" ( Sorta like aeronautic experts of the past telling bees that, theoretically they cant fly) 
I see that, after decades of painting rusty anchor recesses every time they came into port , cruise ship operators( Slow experts ) have finally clued in and are lining such surfaces with stainless, eliminating the problem once and for all. I do the same where the anchor dings the bow paint ,instead of the yachtie absurdity of ever longer and flimseir bow rollers. Ditto other wear points, something anyone with zero expereince maintaining a steel boat couldnt possibly comprehend
Commercial boats can do the same, and reduce maintenace greatly, by taking out the rail pipes etc, where it gets the paint knocked off repeatedly, and replacing such parts with stainess, for a fraction the cost of trying hopelessly to keep paint on them. Many of my newer boats have been going for all stainless bulkwark caps, instead of the yachtie absurdity of teak over steel. Where there are pulp mills there is cheap scrap stainless, some of the best in the world (unless you are like Bob, too snobby and pretentious to be that practical and resourceful)
My clients have had no complaints about maintenance, in fact they all say they have very little to do. I met a guy in New Zealand ( Nelson) who had a steel Matangi motorsailer he had built in Australia. He said that, after years of owning wood and fibreglass boats, he was amazed at how little mainenance his steel boat took.
Those who tell you they have tons of maintenance on their steel boats simply havent figured it out yet, and are thus a poor source of information on the subject. You'd be better off to get your advice from someone who has little maintenace on his steel boat.
I found out that, after owning my current steeel boat for 29 years I have learned a lot about designing and building for easy maitenance, than I had learned after owning my last steel boat for only 11 years. My current boat is in beter shape after 29 years than my last was in after only 11 years. People with zero expereince on the subject have zero knowledge or credibility. They simply repeat the disinformation spread by those trying to sell you plastic boats, or those perpetual screwups with screwed up paint jobs and planning on their steel boats


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## JomsViking

I trust my own experiences first and foremost, and the experiences of some of my personal friends that has many many years of cruising all over the World. And that experience tells me that Mr. Perry has something going for him (and SmackDaddy way less ). But this has nothing to do with having Bob Perry design a new boat, but about the plethora of GRP cruising boats (to his design and many other talented designers) that can take you crusing for next to nothing in comfort and safety.
What ticked me off with your comments is that everything you say implies that those of us that cruise in boats of any other material than steel are risking the lives of our loved ones and ourself. And we don't!

I have also learned the hard way which other cruisers to avoid, and Nuthin Wong ticks all the boxes.

/Joms


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> You can disregard the comments of Bob Perry anbd Smackdaddy, neither of whom has any experence in cruising in and maintaining a steel boat, yet both of whom claim to know more about the subject than someone who has built 38 steel boats and has maintained his own steel boats for 37 years.


Bob, my sincere apologies for the above sentence. It is, indeed, hilarious. But, even disregarding Brent's psychobabble, your reputation has nonetheless officially been sullied by the very proximity of your fine name next to mine in the same sentence.

Heh-heh.

Brent, I own a Hunter 40, you chucklehead.










The C27 was so yesterday. Keep up son!

(PS - I noticed you've not been able to come up with that quote you said I said on stuff, even after I provided you the links. Hmm. Does someone owe me an apology?)


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## jak3b

smackdaddy said:


> Bob, my sincere apologies for the above sentence. It is, indeed, hilarious. But, even disregarding Brent's psychobabble, your reputation has nonetheless officially been sullied by the very proximity of your fine name next to mine in the same sentence.
> 
> Heh-heh.
> 
> Brent, I own a Hunter 40, you chucklehead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The C27 was so yesterday. Keep up son!
> 
> (PS - I noticed you've not been able to come up with that quote you said I said on stuff, even after I provided you the links. Hmm. Does someone owe me an apology?)


Come on Dude, I can tell from here thats an O'day 19.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

smackdaddy said:


> Bob, my sincere apologies for the above sentence. It is, indeed, hilarious. But, even disregarding Brent's psychobabble, your reputation has nonetheless officially been sullied by the very proximity of your fine name next to mine in the same sentence.
> 
> Heh-heh.
> 
> Brent, I own a Hunter 40, you chucklehead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The C27 was so yesterday. Keep up son!
> 
> (PS - I noticed you've not been able to come up with that quote you said I said on stuff, even after I provided you the links. Hmm. Does someone owe me an apology?)


Nope, that is not an O'day 19, that is a rowboat, or maybe some kind of steel skiff, just can't tell from here LOL.


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## zeehag

as re the benefits of steelies--you can bounce em off a rock and not sink....lol...a friend of mine does that unintentionally-- he doesnt ground--he bounces off rocks....egads...
also beneficial is that no one will anchor near ye....lol


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> With a skilled owner and good tools, I've put together a 36 ft hull in two days or tacked together the shell( Hull, decks, wheelhouse, cabin, cockpit keel and skeg ) in 6 days.
> 
> When the cost of steel to build a 36 was around $4K ,the cost of aluminium to build the same boat was around $20K, and aluminium welding equipment was far more expensive . You can only weld aluminium outside in a dead calm, in dry weather. Aluminium welds are only 60% the strength of the surrounding metal, whereas steel welds are 100% , demand far less skill, and are far harder to screw up on.
> 
> On my steel 31 footer, maintenance cost has averaged around 2 hours a year, and less than $50 a year.


Brent,

Here's a 36 called MOM.










The Construction of MOM

Actually a very nice looking boat, I must say. And I think this might be one of the boats you're talking about throwing together in 6 days.

Of course, it seems it took them about 3 months to get to that point you mention above. (They obviously don't have the BS Kung Fu). Then another 7 months or so to actually get her in the water. Then another couple of years to actually finish her to a basic level of completion.

Let's see, that's...3 years from beginning to end. Wow. One could get a lot of cruising done in in 3 years in a FG boat, likely for less money, _if_ one is just looking to cruise.

Just sayin'.

(PS - Isn't lead about a buck a pound? That would be about $5K just for the lead, bro! Where did the $4K figure come from? Are you sure you're using an abacus?)


----------



## bobperry

BS from BS. It never ends.
BS goes on about all this experience maintaining a steel boat then he tries to tell us it's 2 hours and $50 a year. So if BS is correct, after ten years with your steel boat you have invested 20 hours of maintainence. Amazing and not to even mention the $500.


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## jak3b

I just painted the bottom of an Islander 36 on friday.My friend the owner had already sanded and put an undercoat of epoxy on.The bottom paint was Petits best poison, black.60% cuprous oxide.Good old fashioned bottom paint.it retails for $286 a gallon.We got it with a deep ,deep discount.it took a gallon and a half for 2 coats, a coat in the morning and a coat in the afternoon.total painting time 4 1/2 hours.The paint with the discount was still almost $300, forget about the epoxy under coat,sand paper and sanding time.


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## tdw

Having owned a steeler, that two hours $50 does sound remarkably dodgey to me as well. Even without addressing any possible rust issues that is a most imporbably figure. It takes a damn sight more than two hours a year to keep the plastic lady Bristol, hell it takes that long to keep the dinghy afloat.


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## mark2gmtrans

Most of us spend more than two hours and $50.00 a year washing our car, I cannot imagine having a boat larger than this one that did not take more than that in time or money.


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## bobperry

damn it Mark!
Now I am going to feel the need to figure out how much time I spend spiffing up my car each year. It's a hell of a lot more than two hours. But I use SEVEN BROTHERS organic dishwashing liquid. It works really well and is not too expensive so I may be able to stay under the $50 limit.


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## davidpm

I interpreted the 2 hours and $50 comment to be topsides and deck only not bottom. 
His boat is only 31 feet.

Which if Brent has stainless at any wear point and only has to touch up a chip now and then on the deck or the topsides I could see those numbers could be real. 
And frankly if he went over budget by 400% and it was 8 hours and $200 I would think it would be close enough.

Brent says his paint job has lasted 29 years. AllGrip is generally expected to last about 10 years so I wonder what paint he has used?

Maybe today's paint is not as good.


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## mark2gmtrans

bobperry said:


> damn it Mark!
> Now I am going to feel the need to figure out how much time I spend spiffing up my car each year. It's a hell of a lot more than two hours. But I use SEVEN BROTHERS organic dishwashing liquid. It works really well and is not too expensive so I may be able to stay under the $50 limit.


I wash my pickup once or twice a week, going in and out of oilfield locations gets it nasty, a lot of lime and calcium in the soil here, so you have to keep it clean. I use either dish liquid like dawn or joy, or something like that, and then I have to clean up the glass and so forth. I figure about $10.00 a week in water, soap, and tire and wheel cleaners, another $5.00 a week on glass cleaner, and then the leather seat cleaner. Let's just say $15.00 a week, and about two hours more or less, a week.


$15.00 per week = $780.00 USD
2 Hours a week = 104 hours
I get $32.50 per hour on straight time so since my time is worth something
$32.50 * 104 =$3,380.00 USD

Total $780.00 + $3,380.00 = $4,160.00


Now maybe other people do not account for their time, but I do, before I pay someone else to do it. If I had it washed here it would cost me $65.00 per wash, so I actually save about $80.00 per week doing it myself, and I do a lot better job of it. My truck is always clean and I am able to get a better resale on it when I trade it in, so it is okay. Not to mention that a clean truck, car, or boat just looks better. I could not live with a rust covered, streaked hull any more than I could with a filthy truck that got my clothes dirty every time I got in and out of it.


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## SloopJonB

Don't use dish soap to wash a car - it is designed to strip wax, grease, oils etc. from dishes and it does the same to a car - all your last wax job disappears.

Pay the $2 and get car washing liquid - it won't strip the last wax job.


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## mark2gmtrans

SloopJonB said:


> Don't use dish soap to wash a car - it is designed to strip wax, grease, oils etc. from dishes and it does the same to a car - all your last wax job disappears.
> 
> Pay the $2 and get car washing liquid - it won't strip the last wax job.


I am removing lime, calcium, and sometimes little dots of crude oil, I probably better stick with the dawn or joy, and I usually do not wax my truck more than once a month... dog gone it, now I have to go back and add the cost of the wax into the list..meh, I will give that away.

The car washing liquid does not seem to do well with any crude or other miscellaneous petroleum products that the dish soap takes off. Also I use a very small amount of the soap, and a soft brush. The water here has so much crap in it that you have to dry it with a chamois cloth or it will have spots on it that will need to be buffed out, the minerals in our water are harsh.

I used the car washing soap for a while, on my BMW, but it seemed to blend with the water and make some kind of super strength water spots, little dots all over the car that would appear to have come off with the chamois but once the sun hit that dark forest green paint you could see them from the space station. The dish soap seemed to do better, and when I sold it not too long ago the paint still looked great.


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## Lou452

just posting so I will get this thread on my e-mail good thread ! fair winds, Lou


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## blt2ski

One washes and waxes a truck?!?!?!?! really?!?!?!?! wow!!!!

not sure my cornbinder has had either in its 20 yrs, nor has my 05 chebby! I let the NW rain, not that it really rains much here keep it clean! or those funky twuck wash thingies at the local quarry after loading etc. Then I get both sides, and under wash! why wash myself when I can pay some $200 for a load of rock and get a free twuck warsh!

marty

dang it, now I am sounding like the brent character being a cheep arss!


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## jak3b

I built my own car out of recycled cans and old golf carts.Im no fool.I dont trust anyone to design something as simple as a car for me,Imagine, getting paid to draw pictures of cars and than expecting companies to use them,absurd.Those clowns at Asiana would have been much better off if theys built there own planes.Mitches second cousin told me that a guy he knew flew one of my plane kits from New York to Tokyo in 4 hours.The disinformation agents were all over that!.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

blt2ski said:


> One washes and waxes a truck?!?!?!?! really?!?!?!?! wow!!!!
> 
> not sure my cornbinder has had either in its 20 yrs, nor has my 05 chebby! I let the NW rain, not that it really rains much here keep it clean! or those funky twuck wash thingies at the local quarry after loading etc. Then I get both sides, and under wash! why wash myself when I can pay some $200 for a load of rock and get a free twuck warsh!
> 
> marty
> 
> dang it, now I am sounding like the brent character being a cheep arss!


See if you had a Peterbilt instead of a cornbinder you would have to wash it, but when you are slumming around in farm equipment you do not have to wash it. I even washed my W900 once a week and it was not even a red Pete.


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## smackdaddy

Hey, here's another one! It's the thing behind the Harley.

Kim's Boat - TheBoat's Photos










This one is only 26', so by BS Math it should be finished out and ready to sail in a weekend - complete with a nice, cozy interior....










Ohh. Well maybe they need a _long_ weekend since they obviously don't have the BS Kung Fu Time Magic.

Wait..._two years_ and they're still not even half-way done? And now they're moving onto motorcycles? Ouch.

They could have been cruising.

I'm starting wonder what the start/finish ratio for these things is? And does this one go in the "built" column for the BS Boats?


----------



## blt2ski

mark2gmtrans said:


> See if you had a Peterbilt instead of a cornbinder you would have to wash it, but when you are slumming around in farm equipment you do not have to wash it. I even washed my W900 once a week and it was not even a red Pete.


Actually Pete did not at the time have a truck quite as small as mine is. I think they do now. I coudl get a GM, frod, freightshaker, and the misc Aisian LCF style trucks in the 20-26K gvwr range at the time. I believe Paccar has a 26K rig now or has for a few years any how. GM is out of the class 4 and larger trucks..........

Marty


----------



## mark2gmtrans

blt2ski said:


> Actually Pete did not at the time have a truck quite as small as mine is. I think they do now. I coudl get a GM, frod, freightshaker, and the misc Aisian LCF style trucks in the 20-26K gvwr range at the time. I believe Paccar has a 26K rig now or has for a few years any how. GM is out of the class 4 and larger trucks..........
> 
> Marty


Peterbilt has had the smaller trucks for a long time, but the problem was they were almost as big as the class 8 road trucks. Most of them were for construction applications, flatbeds, wreckers, and farm type trucks. We had one of the 330's that had a water spray tank on it that was a 1990, and it was heavy duty and big. Of course it was nice, and it was still sporting that red oval on it.

The wrecker service we used to run has one of the 2013 Peterbilt 330's now with a heavy duty rollback on it, and it is way better than the M2 Freightliner. The M2 has a tiny little Cummins in it that would be just about right in someones 60' boat...because it sure sucks in the truck.


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## Geoff54

smackdaddy said:


> Hey, here's another one! It's the thing behind the Harley.
> 
> Wait..._two years_ and they're still not even half-way done? And now they're moving onto motorcycles? Ouch.


You misunderstood. The Sportster is the anchor - maybe it can be included in an anchor thread.







At least it's not made of substandard Chinese steel... or is it?

I was avoiding this thread because it's just Smack doing his wind up routine again (successfully it seems  ) ... but I got sucked in... again! Damn!!


----------



## smackdaddy

Geoff54 said:


> You misunderstood. The Sportster is the anchor - maybe it can be included in an anchor thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At least it's not made of substandard Chinese steel... or is it?
> 
> I was avoiding this thread because it's just Smack doing his wind up routine again (successfully it seems  ) ... but I got sucked in... again! Damn!!


Sucker! Heh-heh.

Look, I'm not just winding things up here. Brent has made a hell of a lot of claims and taken a hell of a lot of shots at people across many forums. Most of these claims have been about his boats - many of them have been about stuff people have supposedly said. And the majority of them just don't add up.

So, according to your own signature line from that fine philosopher, I'm checking sources, doing some research on Brent's claims. If they stand up to scrutiny, I am indeed just winding things up. If not, I'm learning something for myself just like any Cruiser Wannabe should do. Thus far, those claims are not doing so well.

For example, with Brent's quotes above (and elsewhere) - would a typical Cruiser Wannabe surmise that it's pretty cheap to buy the plans/DVD for a BS Boat, pretty quick and easy to get the boat put together, and pretty cheap to complete her and sail her for the rest of your life with extremely low maintenance time and costs if you're just resourceful?

I think yes.

But then you start looking through what's actually out there (my examples above), and what it takes to get it done - and the reality is very different from this picture.

For example, take the vaunted Silas Crosby: the boat | s/v silas crosby

Brent's quote above talks about pulling the exterior of a boat together in 6 days. But what comes after that 6 days of roughing things out? Well, according to the Silas Crosby guy, this:



> The Boat is a 36′ steel sailboat named Silas Crosby. We built her over *2 yrs and 3 months* and launched in 1994, or thereabouts. We had lots of help. Brent Swain is the designer and he worked for 500 hrs initially , with me helping, to get the hull and deck together.
> 
> Dimensions: 36′ LOA , 30′ LWL, 10'6″ beam , 4′ draft, 17,000 lbs designed displ. , prob more like 22,000 lbs now. Ballast 5,000 lbs poured lead with another 1000 or 2000 lbs in the steel keel structures.


And this isn't even a cost breakdown.

Does that Cruiser Wannabe lining up for plans know what he's really getting into? The tools. The multi-discipline know-how. The multi-year time commitment. The substantial financial investment. ALL before ever getting to sail a single mile?

So, no. I'm not just winding things up here. I'm trying to figure out what Brent is talking about. Because it's not these boats.


----------



## jak3b

Also check the passage times of The Silas Crosby.Not quite 2700 nm in 15 days type boat.


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## mark2gmtrans

Smack, I was just looking at your boat on the blog thingy, dude, that is a good deal and it is a fine looking boat. Hope you guys enjoy it a lot, and at least you know it will not have huge rust stains running down from the scuppers like some other kind of boat might have... well might have if it was finished.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Sucker! Heh-heh.
> 
> Look, I'm not just winding things up here. Brent has made a hell of a lot of claims and taken a hell of a lot of shots at people across many forums. Most of these claims have been about his boats - many of them have been about stuff people have supposedly said. And the majority of them just don't add up.
> 
> So, according to your own signature line from that fine philosopher, I'm checking sources, doing some research on Brent's claims. If they stand up to scrutiny, I am indeed just winding things up. If not, I'm learning something for myself just like any Cruiser Wannabe should do. Thus far, those claims are not doing so well.
> 
> For example, with Brent's quotes above (and elsewhere) - would a typical Cruiser Wannabe surmise that it's pretty cheap to buy the plans/DVD for a BS Boat, pretty quick and easy to get the boat put together, and pretty cheap to complete her and sail her for the rest of your life with extremely low maintenance time and costs if you're just resourceful?
> 
> I think yes.
> 
> But then you start looking through what's actually out there (my examples above), and what it takes to get it done - and the reality is very different from this picture.
> 
> For example, take the vaunted Silas Crosby: the boat | s/v silas crosby
> 
> Brent's quote above talks about pulling the exterior of a boat together in 6 days. But what comes after that 6 days of roughing things out? Well, according to the Silas Crosby guy, this:
> 
> And this isn't even a cost breakdown.
> 
> Does that Cruiser Wannabe lining up for plans know what he's really getting into? The tools. The multi-discipline know-how. The multi-year time commitment. The substantial financial investment. ALL before ever getting to sail a single mile?
> 
> So, no. I'm not just winding things up here. I'm trying to figure out what Brent is talking about. Because it's not these boats.


There is no way I worked 500 hours on that boat . Did most of it in the month of June 1992, then went sailing for the rest of the summer. Steve worked part time on her, while working as a doctor in Courtenay. Being a doctor who had just sold a Spencer 35 he had sailed to New Zealand and back ,he could afford to buy new what most would have time to find used.
The steel for the keels is a 8 ft by 12 ft 1/4 inch plate and the half inch bottoms , 6 inches wide by 6 ft long , about 1,000 lbs in total for the steel. It would take more of your AIG , Enron style, creative calculating to make it 2,000 lbs. The plans don't call for the extra 500 lbs of ballast and Steve is the only one who has put that much in. Steve made the boat a part time hobby, mixing boat building with, hiking in the mountains, skiing , cross country and downhill, and many other family activities along with working. He knows how to enjoy life.
Rowland towed his 36, ballasted , all steel work done , to Edmonton . He said the govt scales said it was 15,000 lbs, total. 
I launched my 31 a month after the steel arrived in 84. The folks at Newcastle marina can confirm that. Winston Bushnell can confirm that. 
I had $4,000 to my name, total when I ordered the steel, then $40 when I launched her. Then I made another $2,000 to detail rig and get her liveable, by october the same year after having puled Uller and Moon Raven together in June of that year. The folks on Cortes Island can confirm that.
I spent three weeks in Winnipeg building Ron Rietsma's boat which sails on lake Winnipeg. In those three weeks I got most of the steel work done including the mast, self steering , all deck details, tankage , lifelines handrails hatches , etc etc in effect all the steel detailing as well. I was only there for three weeks. Commercial builders charge a fortune for that amount of work or much less, in the way of detailing. 
Sure, some, who don't have a lot of money, will be stupid enough to to buy everything new , salvage nothing, despite our being awash in perfectly good used gear with absolutely nothing wrong with it, then complain about the cost of everything. Some will spend their working time smoking dope and drinking, or taking trips to Asia the west Indies, etc, do. doing nothing on the boat for years on end, then complain about how long it is taking,Some have. Others have spent years without setting foot on the boat, making babies, surfing , traveling . skiing etc, but that is not my fault. I have only claimed that one CAN get a boat together quickly without it costing a fortune. Many of my clients have accomplished that. I never claimed that my boats build themselves.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> *There is no way I worked 500 hours on that boat *. Did most of it in the month of June 1992, then went sailing for the rest of the summer. Steve worked part time on her, while working as a doctor in Courtenay. Being a doctor who had just sold a Spencer 35 he had sailed to New Zealand and back ,*he could afford to buy new what most would have time to find used*.
> The steel for the keels is a 8 ft by 12 ft 1/4 inch plate and the half inch bottoms , 6 inches wide by 6 ft long , about 1,000 lbs in total for the steel. *It would take more of your AIG , Enron style, creative calculating to make it 2,000 lbs.* The plans don't call for the extra 500 lbs of ballast and Steve is the only one who has put that much in. Rowland towed his 36, ballasted , all steel work done , to Edmonton . He said the govt scales said it was 15,000 lbs, total.
> I launched my 31 a month after the steel arrived in 84. The folks at Newcastle marina can confirm that. Winston Bushnell can confirm that.
> I had $4,000 to my name, total when I ordered the steel, then $40 when I launched her. Then I made another $2,000 to detail rig and get her liveable, by october the same year after having puled Uller and Moon Raven together in June of that year. The folks on Cortes Island can confirm that.
> I spent three weeks in Winnipeg building Ron Rietsma's boat which sails on lake Winnipeg. In those three weeks I got most of the steel work done including the mast, self steering , all deck details, tankage , lifelines handrails hatches , etc etc in effect all the steel detailing as well. I was only there for three weeks. Commercial builders charge a fortune for that amount of work or much less, in the way of detailing.
> *Sure, some will be stupid enough to to buy everything new , salvage nothing, despite our being awash in perfectly good used gear with absolutely nothing wrong with it*, then complain about the cost of everything. *Some will end spend their working time smoking dope and drinking, doing nothing on the boat for years on end, then complain about how long it is taking*, some have, others have spent years without setting foot on the boat, *making babies, surfing , traveling . skiing etc, but that is not my fault*. I have only claimed that one CAN get a boat together quickly without it costing a fortune. Many of my clients have accomplished that. I never claimed that my boats build themselves.


Wow. Those are some harsh words about your own customers: Liars, stupid rich people who will buy anything, dope smokers, and boozers?

I thought these were the "friends" that you like to quote so often. I guess you only quote them if they fit into your BS narrative? Or maybe you change up their actual stories to fit your BS narrative hoping people are too lazy to look up the actual facts?

The 2,000lbs wasn't my calculation bro, it was your customer's. He's lying Enron-style?

Keep digging.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

smackdaddy said:


> Wow. Those are some harsh words about your own customers: Liars, stupid rich people who will buy anything, dope smokers, and boozers?
> 
> I thought these were the "friends" that you like to quote so often. I guess you only quote them if they fit into your BS narrative? Or maybe you change up their actual stories to fit your BS narrative hoping people are too lazy to look up the actual facts?
> 
> The 2,000lbs wasn't my calculation bro, it was your customer's. He's lying Enron-style?
> 
> Keep digging.


Smack,

I think he will have to make a U-Turn pretty soon, he already dug to China, the return trip is about over too, so I guess he will go off on a new tangent...probably come up in Australia this time.


----------



## bobperry

Brent I didn't see it that way. I saw your post as an honest description of what it takes to operate in your world. Not pretty but real. I could relate. When you said, " $40 when I launched her. " I remembered the time when I was working in Boston when I literally had to count the change in my pocket to see what I could buy for dinner. Beans? How many? Six beans? Nine beans?

I hated that. Well,,,I didn't hate it. It was just the life I had chosen. But I knew that I would never be happy in that world. I knew my work was valuable and damn it I was going to get paid a reasonable living. I am happy with the result. I can buy half the grocery store now. I like that.

You chose a tough way to see your dreams realised. I do not envy you. I admire you for working hard to see your vision completed. Hang in there. Do your thing. But don;t try to tell others that "their thing" is not valid or enjoyable.

You might want to take that hair shirt off from time to time. It's not becoming. And it smells bad.


----------



## jak3b

Bostons a tough town to be broke in Bob.When were you there?.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

bobperry said:


> Brent I didn't see it that way. I saw your post as an honest description of what it takes to operate in your world. Not pretty but real. I could relate. When you said, " $40 when I launched her. " I remembered the time when I was working in Boston when I literally had to count the change in my pocket to see what I could buy for dinner. Beans? How many? Six beans? Nine beans?
> 
> I hated that. Well,,,I didn't hate it. It was just the life I had chosen. But I knew that I would never be happy in that world. I knew my work was valuable and damn it I was going to get paid a reasonable living. I am happy with the result. I can buy half the grocery store now. I like that.
> 
> You chose a tough way to see your dreams realized. I do not envy you. I admire you for working hard to see your vision completed. Hang in there. Do your thing. But don;t try to tell others that "their thing" is not valid or enjoyable.
> 
> You might want to take that hair shirt off from time to time. It's not becoming. And it smells bad.


Bob, I have long said that the way I finally came to see myself as being successful was when I realized I could go to the grocery store and buy as much as I cared to buy and not have to worry if I would have to put anything back when I got to the checkout. I know that feeling, from both sides of the situation.

A lot of people measure their success with the toys they have, me I think success is measured by being out of debt, able to live within your means and knowing what the neighbors have is just that, what they have, and you cannot compare yourself to others if you want to be happy.

Some people think that being wealthy means having stuff, I think being wealthy is not having debt on the stuff you have, no matter if it is an old pickup and a dinghy, or a G IV and a megayacht. Just my opinion, but I think it is a decent way to judge success.


----------



## bobperry

Boston:
April first 1972 and April first 1973. My take home pay was $173.00 a week. I rode my bike 32 miles a day because I had to. I do not regret a minite of it.

Mak:
I'm with you. Buying groceries with a cavelier attitude is indeed a luxury I enjoy today. Although my neighbor Steve makes me read the sale adds. Tonight I ate prime rib eyes $22.00 a pound. They were pretty good. Not sure they were worth that much. I have to stay away from Whole Foods. I prefer a nice big hamburger patty. I buy a chuck roast and have the butcher grind it up for me. I'm a peasant at heart.


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## jak3b

April '72 I was 10.32 miles, you must have been in great shape by the end of that.Go the cheese cake factory and order there Farmhouse special burger, Chedder cheese, bacon on a 1/2 pounder with a fried egg and topped with pork bellies. Its awesome.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Boston:
> April first 1972 and April first 1973. My take home pay was $173.00 a week. I rode my bike 32 miles a day because I had to. I do not regret a minite of it.
> 
> Mak:
> I'm with you. Buying groceries with a cavelier attitude is indeed a luxury I enjoy today. Although my neighbor Steve makes me read the sale adds. Tonight I ate prime rib eyes $22.00 a pound. They were pretty good. Not sure they were worth that much. I have to stay away from Whole Foods. I prefer a nice big hamburger patty. I buy a chuck roast and have the butcher grind it up for me. I'm a peasant at heart.


You were taking home almost 9 grand a year in '72? You were wealthy! That would be like taking home 90 grand now.


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## bobperry

I lived in North Beverly. The office was on the tip of Nahant. I did the 16 miles in an average of 55 minutes depending on the weather. I could not afford the food you talk about. My big splurge was two chocolate donuts from Dunkin Donuts with a coffee.
But I was happy. Sometimes I would stop to watch a little league game.
Don't recall ever thinking I was in "good shape", I was a kid. My body did what I asked.

Jon:
I was far from wealthy. That is a bit silly.


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## mark2gmtrans

Bob, in 1982 when I was still in my last year of high school I got a job for minimum wage, I think it was $1.75 an hour or something close enough that it did not matter, and the pay was retarded low. I still had money to buy gas for the car and a pack of smokes every now and then, and peanut butter and jelly and bread for my lunches. That crappy job, which I worked for three months, broke me of ever wanting to be anyone's employee, so I guess it was a good thing overall, but man you got to know working in a plastic factory, dirty, dangerous, and hot was the worst job I ever worked until I became a business owner and had to work day and night for probably less money a few times. The whole point of it is we all should have some point in our lives where we sat down and had that moment when we realized that it is not how much money you have, but the freedom you have in spending it that counts. If you earn a million dollars an hour but your overhead takes up all but two bucks of that, then you are working for two bucks and hour, and you are probably a millimeter away from a heart attack all the time too.

If you are down in South America and you earn $1200.00 a month, live on a paid for boat, and only work when you really want to or have to in order to scrounge up the money for the slip fees and spend the rest of your time fishing, taking photos in the mountains and enjoying time with your friends and family you would be considered rich in my book. I plan to be rich some day here soon.


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## jak3b

My Father lived in Beverly for about 10 years.I was a bike messenger when I first moved here to San Francisco in 1986. I lived on camels, coffee,top ramon and day old donuts, Sometimes Id get a boiled egg to go with the noodles that was living then.


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## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> I lived in North Beverly. The office was on the tip of Nahant. I did the 16 miles in an average of 55 minutes depending on the weather. I could not afford the food you talk about. My big splurge was two chocolate donuts from Dunkin Donuts with a coffee.
> But I was happy. Sometimes I would stop to watch a little league game.
> Don't recall ever thinking I was in "good shape", I was a kid. My body did what I asked.
> 
> Jon:
> I was far from wealthy. That is a bit silly.


Boston must have been a very expensive place to live then - in '72 I paid $50/month for a suite in a good neighbourhood here. A new Corvette cost about $7K, I bought a near new Yamaha 360 dirt bike for $800. Condo's started at $11K and tract houses were in the $20's.

I would have killed to be taking home $9K then - I was *grossing *about $4k working at IBM in '72. A $9K income was enough to buy a house and support a family back then - here at least.


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## jak3b

Boston has always been expensive.Its 250,000+ college students every year.Also it was the high-tech captital back in the day,Raytheon, Digital, etc.


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## Brent Swain

I worked in steel shops til my mid 20s, when I became self employed. After that I was able to live comfortably on a months work a year. I let people who want to build a steel boat, find a site buy the materials acquoire the tools then hire me for an hourly wage plus expenses, and I help them get the basic shell to apoint where they can handle the rest. I dont accept any pay intil I have done something, and dont start the next week's work til I have ben paid for the last one. This minimizes the potential for misunderstanding. Working alongside the owner also minimizes such potential for misunderstanding. The owners also come away with some welding and fabricating skills, which have, in some cases lead to well paying careers, giving me an even greater sense of accomplishment, especially when dealing with youth..Some times I drop in for a few days to help jump start the detailing. Making peoples lifetime dreams come true is a lot more satifying than building money making devices for the corporate world, especially when your efforts and inovations are the only things which makes the dream possible.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Brent I didn't see it that way. I saw your post as an honest description of what it takes to operate in your world. Not pretty but real. I could relate. When you said, " $40 when I launched her. " I remembered the time when I was working in Boston when I literally had to count the change in my pocket to see what I could buy for dinner. Beans? How many? Six beans? Nine beans?
> 
> I hated that. Well,,,I didn't hate it. It was just the life I had chosen. But I knew that I would never be happy in that world. I knew my work was valuable and damn it I was going to get paid a reasonable living. I am happy with the result. I can buy half the grocery store now. I like that.
> 
> You chose a tough way to see your dreams realised. I do not envy you. I admire you for working hard to see your vision completed. Hang in there. Do your thing. But don;t try to tell others that "their thing" is not valid or enjoyable.
> 
> You might want to take that hair shirt off from time to time. It's not becoming. And it smells bad.


In my early 20's I caried only bus tokens so I couldt waste any money. Froiends who partied their youth away said You are going to have a horrible sumer. I said 
Yes but I will be cruising the south pacific while you guys are still working the rest of your lives." That prediction came true whgen I headed for New zealand, single handed, at the ripe old age of 23 in my own boat, while they kept working to retirement age, those who mad eit that far. No regrets. Resourceful living has been a blast. I wouldn't trade places with anyone. Getting bouncy in this anchorage . Time to go for ice cream and a swim.
Wonder what those rich workaholics are doing at this moment.


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Sucker! Heh-heh.
> 
> Look, I'm not just winding things up here. Brent has made a hell of a lot of claims and taken a hell of a lot of shots at people across many forums. Most of these claims have been about his boats - many of them have been about stuff people have supposedly said. And the majority of them just don't add up.
> 
> So, according to your own signature line from that fine philosopher, I'm checking sources, doing some research on Brent's claims. If they stand up to scrutiny, I am indeed just winding things up. If not, I'm learning something for myself just like any Cruiser Wannabe should do. Thus far, those claims are not doing so well.
> 
> For example, with Brent's quotes above (and elsewhere) - would a typical Cruiser Wannabe surmise that it's pretty cheap to buy the plans/DVD for a BS Boat, pretty quick and easy to get the boat put together, and pretty cheap to complete her and sail her for the rest of your life with extremely low maintenance time and costs if you're just resourceful?
> 
> I think yes.
> 
> But then you start looking through what's actually out there (my examples above), and what it takes to get it done - and the reality is very different from this picture.
> 
> For example, take the vaunted Silas Crosby: the boat | s/v silas crosby
> 
> Brent's quote above talks about pulling the exterior of a boat together in 6 days. But what comes after that 6 days of roughing things out? Well, according to the Silas Crosby guy, this:
> 
> And this isn't even a cost breakdown.
> 
> Does that Cruiser Wannabe lining up for plans know what he's really getting into? The tools. The multi-discipline know-how. The multi-year time commitment. The substantial financial investment. ALL before ever getting to sail a single mile?
> 
> So, no. I'm not just winding things up here. I'm trying to figure out what Brent is talking about. Because it's not these boats.


A freind has hauled out his colvin gazzelle anualy . Designed displacement 22,000 lbs actual displacement 33,000. He owns a farm, to put all his unused stuff on, so, unlike many cruisers, he doesnt have everything he owns aboard. It woulkd be extrtemely naive to suggest that all cruising boats are the same weight after many years of cruising as the designer specified empty.
When you use such distortions to make your arguement, your arguement loses all credibility.
At ten pounds a square foot for 1/4 inch plate, what is your estimate of the steel I specified for the keels? How good is your math?


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## Brent Swain

I can give some proices for the last 36 I built.
Mast and all standing rigging- zero
Sails - zero. 
Sheet and halyard winches - zero
Running rigging and blocks- zero
Two anchors with plenty of almost new rode- zero
He was given an old boat with all the gear listed above, in good shape, for free.
With so many cheap or freebe boats out there, it shows how useless, and needlessly discouraging cost estimates can be.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> A freind has hauled out his colvin gazzelle anualy . Designed displacement 22,000 lbs actual displacement 33,000. He owns a farm, to put all his unused stuff on, so, unlike many cruisers, he doesnt have everything he owns aboard. It woulkd be extrtemely naive to suggest that all cruising boats are the same weight after many years of cruising as the designer specified empty.
> When you use such distortions to make your arguement, your arguement loses all credibility.
> At ten pounds a square foot for 1/4 inch plate, what is your estimate of the steel I specified for the keels? How good is your math?


Brent, I know you're in a hurry to eat your ice cream and swim, but you keep missing the point, over, and over, and over.

Read carefully....

The keel weight was neither my calculation nor my argument, it came from the _owner of the Silas Crosby_..._*your customer*_. (Follow that link above.) HE'S the one you're calling out here...not me. He's one of the friends you like to quote that is supposed to prove your points - not sink them with actual facts (of course I never expected anything else).

Good lord man. You can't keep ANY of these facts straight. My credibility is just fine. It's yours that needs some serious work - especially when it comes to being a credible voice in the steel boat industry.


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## AKA44

I started reading this post when it was new and used the discussion, in part, to validate my desire to have a steel yacht for unlimited voyaging. I just bought maybe the best Colvin Gazelle ever put together - probably one of the most expensive - definitely the best equipped and most beautiful - and couldn't be more excited. A nod to you, Brent, for your 'steeled' passion. I hope that the fact that a 'friend' has one is endorsement from you that I've made a good decision. Thanks, always, Smack for your informed commentary. You never disappoint!


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## smackdaddy

AKA44 said:


> I started reading this post when it was new and used the discussion, in part, to validate my desire to have a steel yacht for unlimited voyaging. I just bought maybe the best Colvin Gazelle ever put together - probably one of the most expensive - definitely the best equipped and most beautiful - and couldn't be more excited. A nod to you, Brent, for your 'steeled' passion. I hope that the fact that a 'friend' has one is endorsement from you that I've made a good decision. Thanks, always, Smack for your informed commentary. You never disappoint!


Heh-heh. No worries AKA. My aim is always to get at what's true. That's all. As I have said many times, I have nothing against Brent (or steel yachts for that matter) - just his claims that don't jive with the truth as seen in the many examples posted above. Personally, I'll be eager to hear your stories regarding maintenance and equipment and how they jive with Brent's. I'm always open to learn!


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## Brent Swain

AKA44 said:


> I started reading this post when it was new and used the discussion, in part, to validate my desire to have a steel yacht for unlimited voyaging. I just bought maybe the best Colvin Gazelle ever put together - probably one of the most expensive - definitely the best equipped and most beautiful - and couldn't be more excited. A nod to you, Brent, for your 'steeled' passion. I hope that the fact that a 'friend' has one is endorsement from you that I've made a good decision. Thanks, always, Smack for your informed commentary. You never disappoint!


I just helperd a friend installl a wheelhouse on his Gazzelle, between the aft cabin and the main cabin, turning the area from a crawl space into a huge living space. Another gazzelle I did this on years ago is cruising Mexico, and is hauled out every spring. He said there are three more Gazzeles in the yard, none of which have a wheelhouse, but all of whom wish they had one. Give it some thought.
Smacks comments, based on zero experience in cruising in steel boats, or any long term cruising or boatbuilding experience of any kind, are anything but informed. Best check the experience of anyone, before giving much weight to their coments.


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## bobperry

Jeezuz Brent: Why so angry if you are having such a great time?

There you go again trying to shove your own judgmental approach down everybody else's thoat.

Relax.
Chill.
Have a drink, a smoke whatever it takes.
Chew your nails.
Enjoy your own ride and know that some of us do not want to be on it. I most certainly do not. But we accept that it is good for you.

Some of us have other ideas.

I am doing exactly what I want to do. I do not want to retire. I just work now at my own pace on my own conditions and I insist on getting well paid for it. My work has value. I produce some beautiful yachts. 

You do protest too much me thinks. You do not sound like a happy guy.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Best check the experience of anyone, before giving much weight to their coments.


I'm just quoting your clients...after I've checked their experience. They definitely carry weight.


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## bobperry

AKA: I am a fan of Colvin's work. They are not my kind of boat but I sure think he did a great job with the designs. I don't have to want one to admire them. Colvin had
"the eye".


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Brent, I know you're in a hurry to eat your ice cream and swim, but you keep missing the point, over, and over, and over.
> 
> Read carefully....
> 
> The keel weight was neither my calculation nor my argument, it came from the _owner of the Silas Crosby_..._*your customer*_. (Follow that link above.) HE'S the one you're calling out here...not me. He's one of the friends you like to quote that is supposed to prove your points - not sink them with actual facts (of course I never expected anything else).
> 
> Good lord man. You can't keep ANY of these facts straight. My credibility is just fine. It's yours that needs some serious work - especially when it comes to being a credible voice in the steel boat industry.


So here are some facts
1-8ft by 12 ft sheet of 1/4 inch plate at 10 lbs per sq ft 960 lbs 
Average 4 inch wide by 6 ft long by half inch plate keel bottoms, 80 lbs
total 1040 lbs. Yes Steve did get that wrong. You would love to con me into agreeing with a miscalculation so you could attack me for it.
A lot closer to 1,000 lbs than 2,000 lbs . 
Another fact . Steve did not say his boat weighed closer to 20,000 pounds empty. In fact, he said nothing about the boat, while equiped and loaded for cruising deep sea, being completely empty. 
Here are some more cost numbers for you. Two anchors with long rodes, in good condition, almost unused - free. They came with the freebe boat.
Stainless galley sink- free from the dumpster. Force ten three burner propane galley stove with oven - free, donated by a guy who came into an inheritance, who bought himself a new one.
That boat, started last mid october, and worked on two or three days a week most of the winter, will be launching this coming wedneday.
Here are some costs for my boat.
Stainless woodstove - $25 worth of scrap stainless and ten dollars worth of welding rod. Gally cook stove -$50 from harbor freight.
Interior - 50 dollars , plywood either given to me or scrounged off the beaches, and tropical hardwood from motorcycle crates, mostly gumwood.
Stainles galley sink - free from a dumpster. Bilge pumps- $10 worth of scrap stainless and $5 worth of welding rods. 2 diaphragms for $5 each. 
Composting head - $25 worth of materials. Roller furler- $80 worth of materials. Anchors - free materials from scrap piles and $3 worth of welding rod. Anchor winch - $35 worth of scrap stainless and $10 worth of welding rod. Mast - free, a gift of spruce. Turnbuckles $22 each, new, galvanized 5/8th inch. 5/16th galv rigging wire , $24 from a scrapyard. Blocks- $2 each made from scrap aluminium and poly sheet.
A kid, whom I'm training to do my job , found enough plywood in a dump, to build his interior several times over, in a single trip.

Most of smackdaddy's attacks on me have an underlying theme of extreme envy. Better to get your directions from the envied, than from the envious. Envy is a very sincere form of flattery.
Thanks for all the compliments , Smack.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> AKA: I am a fan of Colvin's work. They are not my kind of boat but I sure think he did a great job with the designs. I don't have to want one to admire them. Colvin had
> "the eye".


Colvin did a great job of providing plans for home steel boat builders when no one else would. He was ahead of his time, when it came to cruising boat building materials . He is well behind the times in his methods and technology, when it comes to modern steel boat building methods.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Most of smackdaddy's attacks on me have an underlying theme of extreme envy. Better to get your directions from the envied, than from the envious. Envy is a very sincere form of flattery.
> Thanks for all the compliments , Smack.


Extreme envy. Yep, you got me.

Anyway, I'm not "attacking" you, Brent. I'm vigorously questioning your sales pitch regarding your products. That's all.

Many of the things you've been saying don't match what your customers are saying. In my opinion, your claims typically sound too good to be true - and that appears to be proven in these many examples from your clients/friends (though now you're even arguing with them).

As a consumer myself, I tend to put more weight on the facts from the customers involved with a product, than the claims from the guy _trying to sell_ the product...especially if his position is "believe _me_ over anything or anyone else - even my own customers".

Maybe that's just me.

PS - And what do you mean by this?



Brent Swain said:


> Another fact . Steve did not say his boat weighed closer to 20,000 pounds empty. In fact, he said nothing about the boat, while equiped and loaded for cruising deep sea, being completely empty.


All the weight claims are directly from _his_ website. _His_ words: the boat | s/v silas crosby

Who exactly are you trying to discredit here?


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## bobperry

"an underlying theme of extreme envy"
Brent, there you go again projecting. 

Smacks is just interested in your work and wants some honest answers. With your consistantly defensive posture you see almost any question as an "attack". I don't know what it is but as a professional I would think you would want to satisfy his curiosity rather than reply with your own personal attacks. This is just about boats. I think saying Smacks is envious of you is a bit silly. You do not know the man.


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## mark2gmtrans

Brent, I think if you would go and read the stuff on s/v Silas Crosby you would see that Smack* IS * directly quoting your customer. So the thing to do would be to tell us how you would explain the difference in what the owner of s/v Silas Crosby had to say and what you were saying, because there *IS* a great difference in the two, and were I you I would do it in a way that did not piss off my clients past or possibly future.

Sailors tend to play rough, we tend to be blunt, and we tend to expect other sailors to be able to take it as they dish it out, however, as a very experienced manager of sales staff I can tell you that your customers will not want you dogging them out and basically calling them liars. Sailors or not, they are not going to want to pay for the privilege of being called names. So, try to clean up your messes, stop putting down everyone else's choice of building materials, and expound on the good points of your own while also being able to admit that your favorite material does have it down side as well.

In short, try not to make it seem that you are implying that every other material, and every other designer are inferior to your material and design method, people really find that very offensive.


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## bobperry

+1


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## Brent Swain

Right, another 1,000 or 2,000 lbs in the keel structure .Right on, closer to 1,000 lbs,exactly as Steve said,. After ther passage of 21 years the memory of how many hours I spent on her fades, especialy someone elses hours. 
You guys keep forgeting I am retired and if someone would rather buy a plastic boat and risk his life among the debris, I dont give a rat's ass if he doesnt buy my book or plans.
I do remember cruising for that summer, after having worked the month of june. 
I make my book available to those who know better than to blow their cruising funds on commercialy made crap, when they can make far better boats and gear for a fraction the cost , themselves, the only ones I am interested in dealing with. Yes I enjoy shooting ducks off a fence especially the feather brained ducks who make such ridiculous comments that a wooden boat is stronger than a steel one. Such crap must be challenged, lest someone die from believing it.


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## Brent Swain

mark2gmtrans said:


> Smack, I was just looking at your boat on the blog thingy, dude, that is a good deal and it is a fine looking boat. Hope you guys enjoy it a lot, and at least you know it will not have huge rust stains running down from the scuppers like some other kind of boat might have... well might have if it was finished.


When Robin Knox johnston finished his circumnavigation in Suhaili, she was drooling rust everywhere, far more so than Moitessiers Joshua. Joshua was built of steel, Suhaili was built of some snobby pretentious material called "TEAK' ( a type of dead vegitation) a far inferior boat building material than steel. Steel cruisers drooling rust are rare, and those which do are obviously doing something wrong. Get it right and you wont have that problem. It is mostly those who have never owned a steel boat who give such naive, foolish advice. I remember Amazons, which had the toe rail made of dead vegitation 3/4 inch above the decks, all the way around, streaked with smog all around ther top sides. Runoff could drool down the topsides anywhere. I use a steel bulwark with two scuppers with stainless drip lips under them, which take any drips clear of the topsides. All crud including urban exhuast fallout is directed to the scuppers and drip lips, keeping it clear of the topsides.The only rust I have is from my anchor chain. If that gets to the scuppers it drips clear of the topsides. This is but one example of how owning a steel boat for many years is critical to designing one for easy mainenance.

Smackdaddy, how did you lose your last boat?


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## bobperry

BS:
Your knee jerk defensive posture makes you a very easy target Brent. As an MMA guy I would assume you know you can't be on defense all the time.
Personal attacks do not consitute an offense.

We love it when you tell us how to enjoy our lives.


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## Brent Swain

I checked Steve's blog again, and see no mention of the boat being dead empty, while crossing an ocean. Can you cross an ocean in a completely empty boat, or predict exactly what amount of weight any owner will put aboard, as you imply I should be doing?


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## bobperry

B S:
Just put the matter to rest by publishing one of your weight studies. That should do it. If nothing esle it will put the peanut gallery to sleep. Few things are more boring or NECESSARY than a weight study.


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## Brent Swain

I have only dealt with two people who loved their pot and booze too much to finish their boat. One, after pulling the hull together, did nothinjg for several years onher. I volenteered 8 hours and in that time , including diigging the steel out of the grass grown over it , I had all the decks on in 8 hours. He did nothing more til he sold the boat to a freind, who had circumnavigated in one of my 36 footers (Island Breeze ). The new owner bought the bare hull in mid january and by june was headed out on a fisheries job in the boat.
When someone can do more in a few months than others can accomplish in years, it is not the building procces which is at fault.
If one has far more money than one knows what to do with, then buying new is irelevant. If one is short of money, and lack of money will shorten ones cruising time, only then is buying new foolish.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Smackdaddy, how did you lose your last boat?


I wrote about it on here. Our C27 sunk in her slip (along with several other boats) during a freak 60-knot wind-storm that drove the stems of all the boats into the dock for several hours (totaling roughly 90% of the boats on that dock):



















After the sinking, I was left with a decision...should I go to a steel boat that BS has forever boasted would easily withstand such a beating without a scratch - AND would be cheaper and safer than anything else? Or should I stick with the flimsy, dangerous, and expensive fiberglass yacht?

The BS certainly sounded good. And I was sorely tempted. Then I did some research and understood the reality.

I bought a very nice Hunter...

...and saved a great deal of money I would have otherwise sunk into an aesthetically challenged steel boat;
...and saved having to beg for space and help and equipment to build that beast;
...and saved _years_ of time I would have otherwise put into scouring dumps for cast-off parts and learning to weld, etc. before ever sailing a single mile...

...and I started cruising.

Couldn't be happier.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> B S:
> Just put the matter to rest by publishing one of your weight studies. That should do it. If nothing esle it will put the peanut gallery to sleep. Few things are more boring or NECESSARY than a weight study.


Are you implying that all owners of your boats put exactly the same things of exactly the same weigh in every one of your boats, or that you make that assumption when designing them?
Now that's naive, or dishonest! Go read Hal Roths calculation of the weight of ground tackle he used. Do you use the same numbers for weight calculations for your 35 footers? Did Spencer? Did his boat float on the waterline they said it would ? Not achance! Nor do yours fully loaded for cruising?
Someone earlier on this thread sugested that two boxes of stuff constituted a cruising load. The designer of my first boat, Kinny, calculated 200 lbs total for personal belongings. Now that's incredibly naive, or dishonest to get the numbers down. I have no idea of how much of a packrat any owner will turn out to be( and neither do you) and I'm honest enough to admit it, unlike some designers who claim to have telpathic knowledge of such maters. to get their numbers down to misleading, unrealistic promises.I give the empty weight, which is all any designer is capable of doing honestly, the rest is up to the owner which will vary widely. No two owners will put exactly the same interior in.

Gettin warm.Time for a swim,then another ice cream cone.


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## bobperry

I'm not implying anything and as I read this thread we are talking about your boats not mine. Of course loads will vary from owner to owner and from time to time. But if we could see one of your weight studies we would have some benchmark to work from in discussing weight issues of BS designs.

I do weight studies in three stages:
Light ship or as launched
Half load or as you might typically find the boat at the dock on any given day
Full load, tanks full and a lot of personal gear and stores.

Of course, if you don't have a weight study you can publish I would certainly understand. I can't imagine someone who struggles with numbers like you do even doing a coherant and thorough weight study.

Here is MOBISLE a truly fast passage maker, at hull speed and on it's lines on it's way to Australia. A very good looking boat to my biased eye. Transom just kissing the water making use of every inch of sailing length. Of course I had a good weight study.

We'll wait for your weights.


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## tdw

Brent Swain said:


> Colvin did a great job of providing plans for home steel boat builders when no one else would. He was ahead of his time, when it came to cruising boat building materials . He is well behind the times in his methods and technology, when it comes to modern steel boat building methods.


What about Van de Stadt ? Surely they were in the steel boat plan business at the same time as Colvin ? Other than that when did Roberts kick off ?


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## bobperry

Fuzzmeister:
I'm with you on Van de Stadt. They did some very good looking and very good performing boats. Talk to Estar/Evans. He loves his boat. Don't be confused and think that all steel boats have to look like BS designs.


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## davidpm

Brent
I posted this a few days ago.
Unless I missed it, if I did I'm sorry talk to me about the paint.

_Brent says his paint job has lasted 29 years. AllGrip is generally expected to last about 10 years so I wonder what paint he has used?

Maybe today's paint is not as good._

Brent I'm going to order your book for whatever that is worth.

As for the rest of you I don't read what Brent says as untruthful as much as from a different world.
We all end up on a different path of life. Some of us go to college, so military some big city business some farming etc.

I don't doubt that Brent has done exactly what he has said such as welding up a steel 36' hull in a couple days.
But I've been around long enough to know that a 45' to 50' hull might be a totally different thing.
The days are probably a little more that 8 hours.
There was significant preparation before the building started (days or weeks)
It is not going to look like a Catalina when it is done.
Fairing and painting can take as long as I want to play with it.
The chances of me being able to scrounge enough for the rig, interior, propulsion etc is not likely. That hasn't been my world.

So the chances of it working out for me is slim. I'm still going to buy the book because I admire people who do things differently from the norm and I might be able to learn something.

I think you all have to admit that a lot of what Brent says makes a lot of sense. Welded deck with no holes. Stainless rail with weep holes outboard etc.

I'll bet that their isn't a square inch of hull inside or out that is not inspectable. If every square inch of 1/4" steel is coated in a 1/16 inch of epoxy plus paint in side and out I could believe that all you have to do is touch up the paint once in a while.
Especially if anyplace their ever was any wear he welded in a piece of stainless.

The plywood interior was often scavenged so I doubt if it looks like a Sabre. It is probably painted with house paint but so what.

Trying to compare what Brent does to what Bob does doesn't make any sense at all. The product is too different. The people drawn to one or the other is too different.

I remember a story about some pirates that lost their ship on an island. They used the bowsprit from their wrecked boat as the keel to build a get-away ship and built it from what they could salvage from the big boat.
They build a forge and reworked iron they salvaged into whatever they needed.
It took a couple months but they sailed away.

This is one of my favorite stories. 
That

I noticed that the website hosting it went down so I rescued it from archive.org and posted it on my site.
This guy built this boat from scratch in the jungle of latin america.
Shows that someone with a lot of skill, talent and determination can do.
I see Brent in the same category of these guys. A dying breed.

I'm still interested in the paint job Brent if you are still around.


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## Brent Swain

tdw said:


> What about Van de Stadt ? Surely they were in the steel boat plan business at the same time as Colvin ? Other than that when did Roberts kick off ?


Yes, Van de Stadt was designing some of the best boats of that era, with methods decades ahead of Colvin. Unlike Colvin, he made advances in steel boatbuilding, by thinking outside the box, and not geting stuck in a technological time warp, as Colvin did. Dealing with European bureucrartic control freaks, he took a huge and brave step in treating steel as a different medium, taking full advantage of the material, radically diffetent from the imitation wooden boatbuilding methods which Colvin stuck dogmatically to.
Van de Stadt 's boats were much better and more advanced boats than anything Colvin ever designed.
Roberts has some well saiing designs, but they reflect a lack of experience in working in steel. He stated in his last book that he designs his skegs to fall of if they hit anything, another demonstration of lack of experience. They are better boats than Colvins, shape wise, but you had better do some reinforcing of his skegs , and forget about this Spray design, a true disaster in steel.


----------



## Brent Swain

My steel came wheelabraded and primed with carboweld cold galvanizing zinc rich primer, 85% zinc dry weight. I touched up the welds with a similar product, washed all the welding smoke off, with first TSP then vinegar then water, let her dry, then gave her 5 coats of bar rust 235 brown on the hull, three coats inside, and four on the decks. The thicker the epoxy the better. This I covered ,for colour and UV protection with marine enamel. Epoxy gets continuously thiner under UV. I give her another coat of cheap marine enamel every few years. To get anything to stick to epoxy, you have to put your first coat of enamel or urethane on the last coat of epoxy, wet on wet. Otherwise it will fall off in sheets.If you are using epoxy tar, it will bleed thru and look like hell. Give it another coat in 24 hours, then leave it alone for several weeks, to harden up well. Then you can put any colour you want over it , including white, and it will not bleed thru .
For commercial boats, where the epoxy is constantly getting knocked off, sandblasting and a buildup of zinc primer will not get knocked off, and can be overcoated with more zinc primer any time.

Waser makes good zinc primers.
Origamiboats, being as fair as any fibreglass hull, need no fairing, but if you have a hull you have to fair, then fairing is best done from the inside , with a hydraulic jack on a telescoping pole. Where the hull is dished inwards, you tack a length of flatbar on the inside of the bulge, then force it out with the jack ,and put several tacks along it. When you release the jack, it will stay fair, far more permanently that any filler. You can find the hollows with a flashlight, shone along the hull after dark. Do the whole inside of the hull this way, wherever there are hollows. Dont worry about what it looks like inside, that will be covered with many coats of epoxy tar and sprayfoam, and never seen again. It's the outside, and minimizing filler which counts.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Fuzzmeister:
> I'm with you on Van de Stadt. They did some very good looking and very good performing boats. Talk to Estar/Evans. He loves his boat. Don't be confused and think that all steel boats have to look like BS designs.


You are right. Few look as good as BS designs. Most have full length chines, visible when the boat is in the water, unlike BS designs. I see a lot of steel boats going to a lot of trouble and expense to eliminate ugly, visible chines ,but I see few adding full length chines to a round bilged boat to make it look better.


----------



## bobperry

No Brent BS designs do not look good. They are in fact crude and pretty ugly boats. They are boats. I'll give you that. They are not yachts. You will never convince me otherwise. At 15 years old I knew that boats could look better than the designs you produce. If that was yacht design I would have chosen a diffent path.

But hell, ugly is good. Lots of people like ugly. Not sure why.
I think you are on very thin ice when you talk about aesthetics.

But you still manage to try to change the subject everytime a reasonable question is asked. You refuse to go head to head. Weasel.

About that weight study? Are you going to post it or just weasel out and try to once again change the subject. You weasel well.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> No Brent BS designs do not look good. They are in fact crude and pretty ugly boats. They are boats. I'll give you that. They are not yachts. You will never convince me otherwise. At 15 years old I knew that boats could look better than the designs you produce. If that was yacht design I would have chosen a diffent path.
> 
> But hell, ugly is good. Lots of people like ugly. Not sure why.
> I think you are on very thin ice when you talk about aesthetics.
> 
> But you still manage to try to change the subject everytime a reasonable question is asked. You refuse to go head to head. Weasel.
> 
> About that weight study? Are you going to post it or just weasel out and try to once again change the subject. You weasel well.


Bob. This contradicts your earlier posts.. You have some of the best looking boats out there, second only to mine. If I emulated your hull shapes in steel, they would be horrendously expensive, time consuming,"Miss Bondo's." Different materials call for different shapes.
No argueing with the weight given by a government highway scale.
Bedtime. Getin dark, too dark to see.


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## jak3b

Wow that was smooth.From weight to insulting someones wife.I bet you make friends all over.


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## davidpm

Brent Swain said:


> need no fairing, but if you have a hull you have to fair, then fairing is best done from the inside , with a hydraulic jack on a telescoping pole.


That is clever. Wouldn't have thought of that.

What do you use for bottom paint or the more accurately the whole bottom maintenance process.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Have you guys seen this guys wife? Aesthetics?
> No argueing with the weight given by a government highway scale.
> Bedtime. Getin dark, too dark to see.


Okay - all debating aside...that was a seriously douchey thing to say, Brent. You're messing with family. Sailors don't do that. Ever.

You owe Bob an apology.


----------



## bobperry

Smacks:
Brent doesn't know my wife apparently and I do not need an apology. His comment was one made out of desperation to change the subject. What's next? "Yoiu mother wears army boots"? He's a real class act.


----------



## smackdaddy

davidpm said:


> As for the rest of you I don't read what Brent says as untruthful as much as from a different world.


David, I can kind of see your point. He's definitely from a different world. But there's no world I know of where it's okay to disparage your own customers and even other people's family.



davidpm said:


> The days are probably a little more that 8 hours.
> There was significant preparation before the building started (days or weeks)
> It is not going to look like a Catalina when it is done.
> Fairing and painting can take as long as I want to play with it.
> 
> *The chances of me being able to scrounge enough for the rig, interior, propulsion etc is not likely. That hasn't been my world.
> 
> So the chances of it working out for me is slim. *


This is precisely the point I'm trying to make in this debate with Brent. The chances of success in building/completing/cruising a BS boat for ANY "cruiser wannabe" that doesn't have a great deal of foreknowledge and experience in steelwork and yacht systems (as well as a tremendous amount of time and money) is, as you say, *very slim*.

You sail a good bit. You understand boats. And you understand this reality. Do his potential "cruiser wannabe" customers who simply listen to his promises and read his book?

Brent is so entrenched in "his world" that he thinks it's the _only_ world. Anyone that's not a part of it is a sucker, a shyster, or a fool. This is the problem. He is completely unable to be objective. And this makes him claim things that are obviously and provably not true.



davidpm said:


> I don't doubt that Brent has done exactly what he has said such as welding up a steel 36' hull in a couple days.


Actually, I don't doubt it either. But that's the problem - he passes this off as _typical in the process_. He can't grasp the fact that having decades of experience doing just this (as well as the proper tools and space necessary) is the key to being able to do it. A cruiser wannabe that listens to his claims thinks this is just how BS boats go together. He shells out the money for the plans, the steel, the tools, the space - then realizes it's not quite what he was promised.

If Brent could be honest about what it _really_ takes a _new, green boatbuilder_ to finish one of his boats, I would have some respect for him. Instead, he calls his customers liars, drunks and dope smokers for not doing what he promised them they could do. It's _their_ fault - not his.

I have no respect for people like that.



davidpm said:


> Trying to compare what Brent does to what Bob does doesn't make any sense at all. The product is too different. The people drawn to one or the other is too different.


I totally agree with you here. There is absolutely no comparison. Yet, Brent claims that his designs and boats are inherently superior.

That is definitely a different world.


----------



## smackdaddy

I am interested in something. Honestly.

Are there people out there reading this thread who are interested in building a steel boat? If so, what do you think about all this?


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## bobperry

I get to go sailing today. Yippeeee! I have a new custom boat client and he wants me to sail with him on his currrent boat so we can go over the features he wants on the new boat. It's a nice day here so it should be fun. I'll leave you guys to deal with BS. Clearly he does not want to show us a weight study. Don't think he has one. Just asking to see one seemed to push him over the edge. I could post the weights for the SLIVER project. Not sure what that would accomplish though. So far we are within 200 lbs. of the predicted weight. If we can stay aroound 200 lbs. I'll be happy. Given the fact that the boat is a daysailer I don't have to deal with a big variable as far as "personal effects" goes. The client is fastidious about keeping junk off the boat.


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## mark2gmtrans

smackdaddy said:


> I am interested in something. Honestly.
> 
> Are there people out there reading this thread who are interested in building a steel boat? If so, what do you think about all this?


Smack,

I am pretty experienced at working in sheet metals, and I have gotten paid a lot of money to weld stuff that was x-rayed, pressure tested, and inspected very tightly, and I would not attempt to build a steel boat unless I was in a full service sheet metal shop with a plasma cutting table, a heavy steel break, roller, and all the rest of the stuff you would find in an industrial fabrication and machine shop.

I am fairly sure most wannabe cruisers do not have this, which as far as I can see is the only reason they would consider a BS design in the first place. I certainly would not build a blue water cruiser out of steel without using frames, because I would want to be able to isolate compartments using some of those frames, and I would want to have the rigidity that the frames would give not only my hull, but my deck and my cabin sole, plus that it would give a nice place to hang stuff that I wanted to mount, like conduit and plumbing.

I certainly am among the few I know with the skills to do the job, though I am far out of practice, I have not forgotten, and I still do some welding and fabrication for a couple of charity organizations from time to time. Most people are not certified welders, do not have any skills in working sheet metal, and certainly do not have a shop with overhead cranes, welding machines, torches, plasma cutters, grinders, a brake, a roller, or a sheer and this stuff is expensive.

This little gem is $24,500.00 and you would need it to build a steel hull boat of any size or you would need to pay someone to use theirs.










By the way, if you have one of those and a press roller and all the other stuff in a nice big high ceiling shop, say 80 feet high, located directly on the waterfront please feel free to contact me, we might be able to build something.


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## bljones

An awful lot of steel boats get built by an awful lot of uncertified welders without big shops.
In fact, most of them. 
Hundreds of steel fishtugs upwards of 60 feet in length have been constructed locally over the last century, wit no plasma cutter in sight, in the open air, by small shipyards.
They ain't pretty, but they work.
It's not rocket surgery.
But, like ferrocement, it doesn't make a whole lot of economic sense anymore, with a glut of boats on the market that can be had for far far less than the materials to build a boat.


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## mark2gmtrans

bljones said:


> An awful lot of steel boats get built by an awful lot of uncertified welders without big shops.
> In fact, most of them.
> Hundreds of steel fishtugs upwards of 60 feet in length have been constructed locally over the last century, wit no plasma cutter in sight, in the open air, by small shipyards.
> *They ain't pretty, but they work.*
> It's not rocket surgery.
> But, like ferrocement, it doesn't make a whole lot of economic sense anymore, with a glut of boats on the market that can be had for far far less than the materials to build a boat.


Boats, not yachts, sailing yachts are meant to be beautiful creatures, works of art in motion, not a bathtub with a sail hoisted above it. To build a living creature like a truly beautiful yacht you do not do it in such a grotesque manner, you also would not wish to slap together the bride of Frankenstein type things I have seen as BS designs. A true steel sailing yacht is not built in some Godawful cow lot with bubble gum and bailing wire, it is lovingly crafted by artisans in a controlled environment where they have the equipment, time, and shelter needed to work on bringing her to life as a fluid sculpture, a melding of land, sea, air, and water in a thing of beauty, not some garbage scow with a sail.


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## bljones

yeah, okay.


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## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> forget about this Spray design, a true disaster in *any material*.


Fixed it for you. 

The Spray - proof that even a haystack will sail downwind. Every Spray I've seen has made those Dutch lee-board barge yachts look like high tech racers.


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## SloopJonB

I don't know if people have failed to recognize it or if they simply reject the concept but I understand where BS is coming from.

His priorities (ONLY priorities it appears) are cheap, relatively simple construction and ultimate survivability at sea - icebreakers as it were.

Aesthetics other than the brutal, purely functional workboat type, simply don't enter into his philosophy.

That is simply a lack of artistry IMHO. Bob & I wrote earlier about a local log salvage boat named Beach Boy that was designed by Garden. It is absolutely beautiful and a log boat has as hard a life as any boat out there. Most of them look much of a muchness with BS's boats from an aesthetic POV but Beach Boy proved they don't have to - you simply have to care about it and have a designer with some artistry.

I find BS's origami process interesting but I'd sure like to see one done with the aforementioned artistry, especially re: the deck structures.


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## jak3b

Lots of steel boats have been built by amatures in less then ideal conditions.IMHO there are even some good looking ones with chines.The Wylo II comes to mind.Folded plate construction(Origami) has been around for a while.Its not "Brents" he didnt originate it.He did not originate DIY either.He didnt invent ocean cruising,sailing, welding, or anything else as far as I can tell.The claim that he "pulls a hull and deck together' really means he has only tack welded it together.Its far from a complete shell.There is still many hours of welding to go just to get a empty shell.You can save alot of money fabricating fittings,using discarded wood for an interior.But even cheap epoxy is expensive(Yogi Barra?).For my area just a space to build in is expensive as hell.Trevor Robertson built his wylo Iron Bark in 2 years.Hes sailed her 100,000+ miles including wintering over in Antartica and Greenland. This is and interview with him and Annie Hill.Annie Hill & Trevor Robertson - YouTube
He seems like a nice guy.He probably wont insult your wife or belittle you for your choices.


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## smackdaddy

jak3b said:


> Trevor Robertson built his wylo Iron Bark in 2 years.Hes sailed her 100,000+ miles including wintering over in Antartica and Greenland. This is and interview with him and Annie Hill.Annie Hill & Trevor Robertson - YouTube
> He seems like a nice guy.He probably wont insult your wife or belittle you for your choices.


Holy CRAP! Now these are people I can respect.

Look at this!



















Iron Bark's travels

Go the Trevor and Annie!


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## bljones

^^^This, friends, is what happens when you wait just a _little_ too long for winter haulout in Ontario.


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## smackdaddy

bljones said:


> ^^^This, friends, is what happens when you wait just a _little_ too long for winter haulout in Ontario.


Heh-heh. I have some very deep sympathy for you guys in the winter. That's brutal.

I'll raise a warm beer northward this January and have a moment of silence while I adjust my flip-flops.


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## outbound

I have read this thread from beginning to end and would wish to offer the following observations.
1.I took the commercial welding course at the local voc. school when deciding if I wanted to have a steel/aluminuim boat. I wanted to know about TIG/MIG welding,use plasma cutters etc. I figured if I went that way even if I had K+M or Kanter build the boat for me at least I would know what was a good yard, what was good construction,what was good 5k series Al or 3 series SS etc. 
2.I have sailed on AL and Fe boats. and at one time was very close to buying a Boreal
Fe can be done well. In general it is cheaper, faster and safer to have it done by a professional yard. For me the calculations showed it was cheaper to have a professional yard do it as I could make more money at my day job per hour then they cost per hour given they are so much more productive with that hour. Also availability and expense of subsequent innsurance etc. needs to be factored in. Fe make sense at >50-60' but not below.
Al requires great skill and a controlled environment to be done correctly. Design of all systems not only the structure of the boat must be done and installed keeping the issues with Al foremost in mind. It is a material which is very viable for boat construction but in my view can only be done effectively in a professional yard to design made orginally for Al.
Owners of metal boats need an additional knowledge base concerning the issues germaine to metal construction and maintenance. The Metal Boat Society was a good resource for me.
I went with solid glass hull and divynicell core deck/house etc. Hannah2 went with Al professionally built. Both are good decisions for "blue water boats". In the current era unless one wishes to go slowly, can avoid going to weather, have very limited comforts,can spend years of their life getting a boat ready for sea and can self insure a BS boat makes little sense.
I would encourage the OP to google the Dutch/French yards, speak with surveyors and see/sail vessels in this catagory before making the jump.


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## jak3b

I respect people who sail to Greenland, Antarctica,NW passage but for me no thanks!.I want to be in an area that can natively support coconuts.San Francisco is bloody cold as far as I am concerned;-).


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## bljones

Thanks for the thoughts, smack.


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## outbound

Have had contact with Hannah2 in past. He had extensive blue water experience on a Mason 44 before moving to his current love a Boreal. There is some limited merit in BS statement that some educated sailors move from glass to metal. Usually this is with intentions of high latitude sailing. Other issue to to be very realistic about your future plans. If you intend to cruise for 5-10y and return to the US factor in the limited niche market for metal boats in this country. Buying a used metal boat creates further hurdles as surveying, insuring, and financing these vessels is more problematic. Generally in the <40' market they will be bought with cash on hand.


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## seascene

I liveaboard a Swain 36 launched in 2005. So far so good. Put in a stainless wood stove this year goes well with the north coast BC climate. Lots of logging debris floating up here and I have hit my share of it with a paint smudge or two to deal with. I am just now 65 and have had several sail boats. This one fits my needs very well. I hired professional help for the steel work and roughed in interior (painted plywood ...needed trim, cabinet doors etc). We worked from May to October 2004 and 2005 and launched as shown at youtube.com/seascene. My costs would not relate to the discussion for owner only built Swains which mine is not. But built right they look good; certainly sail very well 5 to 6 kts ok by me without strong winds and are very tough and need little maintenance. The launch colour is beige but one coat of paint after 7 yrs to green.


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## bobperry

Sea:
That's wonderful and I am happy that you are happy with your boat.
But when confronted with some simple questions about the elements of yacht design your "designer" BS chose to attack my wife.

Hello?

Enjoy your boat and know that the "designer" is a small man. A little man. My wife has survived the death of our beloved son. It has not been easy. It's a daily struggle. But she is tough and a great tough sailor. To pull her into this argument was so low I don't have the words to describe it. It is a first in my experience at this level of "argument".

But enjoy your steel boat. I'm sure it is a wonderful boat for you.
But BS will forever remain in my eyes a very, very small man.
Hope that works for you. Integrity is a word that comes to mind.

I look forward to the day I meet BS. BS should not look forward to that day.


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## smackdaddy

seascene said:


> I liveaboard a Swain 36 launched in 2005. So far so good. Put in a stainless wood stove this year goes well with the north coast BC climate. Lots of logging debris floating up here and I have hit my share of it with a paint smudge or two to deal with. I am just now 65 and have had several sail boats. This one fits my needs very well. I hired professional help for the steel work and roughed in interior (painted plywood ...needed trim, cabinet doors etc). We worked from May to October 2004 and 2005 and launched as shown at youtube.com/seascene. My costs would not relate to the discussion for owner only built Swains which mine is not. But built right they look good; certainly sail very well 5 to 6 kts ok by me without strong winds and are very tough and need little maintenance. The launch colour is beige but one coat of paint after 7 yrs to green.


Sea - thanks for throwing in. It's great to hear from someone in the know.

Actually, I think the cost is definitely applicable to this discussion. My contention is the "owner only built Swains" are not representative of 99% of the potential customers out there. Like you, most will absolutely need help.

Again, nothing wrong with that at all - but it's reality.

So, if you don't mind...what was the general cost of your boat?

Your build time-frame is a bit closer to Brent's claims. How many were working on it? And what took the longest? Also, was it completely finished at launch?

(PS - GREAT choice of music for the video! "I'm on my way...")


----------



## tdw

bobperry said:


> Fuzzmeister:
> I'm with you on Van de Stadt. They did some very good looking and very good performing boats. Talk to Estar/Evans. He loves his boat. Don't be confused and think that all steel boats have to look like BS designs.


Beth and Evans built themselves (had built for them) a real beauty. For what they wanted in a boat she is a gem imho.

Our previous was a VDS34, multi chine steel. To be fair round bilge is prettier than multi chine of that I have no doubt but VDS did/do a better job than most when it comes to dealing with chines. That said I prefer a multi chine like the VDS34 to a hard chine. The multi may look a tadge odd at rest but there isn't much erkier than a hard chine on the wind. (I'm not referring to modern racers here, only older cruising boats.



To be honest if Raven had been a forty footer I doubt we would have moved on. At 34' her foward cabin was a bit cramped, galley tight and head needed a squidgin more headroom. Nonetheless she was much loved by us and we enjoyed many a mini cruise with her.

btw .... Hartley's posts re Doulos reminded me of ....



I think think was her last voyage before she headed to the breakers yard. Hartles would know more. Fine old girl she was.



> Yes, Van de Stadt was designing some of the best boats of that era, with methods decades ahead of Colvin. Unlike Colvin, he made advances in steel boatbuilding, by thinking outside the box, and not geting stuck in a technological time warp, as Colvin did. Dealing with European bureucrartic control freaks, he took a huge and brave step in treating steel as a different medium, taking full advantage of the material, radically diffetent from the imitation wooden boatbuilding methods which Colvin stuck dogmatically to.
> Van de Stadt 's boats were much better and more advanced boats than anything Colvin ever designed.
> Roberts has some well saiing designs, but they reflect a lack of experience in working in steel. He stated in his last book that he designs his skegs to fall of if they hit anything, another demonstration of lack of experience. They are better boats than Colvins, shape wise, but you had better do some reinforcing of his skegs , and forget about this Spray design, a true disaster in steel.


Probably so re VDS v Colvin but lets face it they were addressing slightly different markets. While I'd not aspire to owning one Gazelle's usually bring a smile. 
As for Roberts I am not a big fan but there are undoubtedly some fine boats out there bearing his name. I'm not at all sure that Roberts had an original idea in his entire life but one cannot deny that he filled a niche. A newish SailNetter "Windarra44" has a Roberts Offshore 44 Ketch but I no not what material she is made. 
Spray is a funny one. Not my idea of the perfect boat by any means but when you sit on one out of Portsmouth UK now anchored in Sydney Harbour you have to give the damn thing some points.

Bob Perry uses the line ... "he has the eye" and that is surely the crux of this conversation. Plenty of boats can do the job but how many make you think ... mmmm yummy ?


----------



## seascene

smackdaddy said:


> Sea - thanks for throwing in. It's great to hear from someone in the know.
> 
> .. just re-read my post. The boat launched in January 2005. We worked on the boat from May to October of 2003 and 2004 total 14 months (intensive 6 day weeks kinda work). I do recollect hiring some additional part time help for painting interior, grinding etc when I got injured for a while and a pro industrial spray painter for the hull. Almost 9 yrs past so I could not give you guidance on price.


----------



## jak3b

I like this chined steel boat, Alan Payne's Skookum design.


----------



## seascene

.... I guess I would hasten to ad that like anything owner built the end product appearance will be dependant on the skills of the owner. Whatever, the effort, if the welding is done right, the owner will have a very seaworthy boat which is one of the "pros" as per this thread's question.


----------



## smackdaddy

seascene said:


> smackdaddy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sea - thanks for throwing in. It's great to hear from someone in the know.
> 
> .. just re-read my post. The boat launched in January 2005. We worked on the boat from May to October of 2003 and 2004 total 14 months (intensive 6 day weeks kinda work). I do recollect hiring some additional part time help for painting interior, grinding etc when I got injured for a while and a pro industrial spray painter for the hull. Almost 9 yrs past so I could not give you guidance on price.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the additional info - yeah the dates weren't quite making sense in the first one.
> 
> Brent said that Winston B. told him he built and completely finished his BS36 for around $35K. Do you think yours was in that ballpark?
Click to expand...


----------



## seascene

smackdaddy said:


> seascene said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the additional info - yeah the dates weren't quite making sense in the first one.
> 
> Brent said that Winston B. told him he built and completely finished his BS36 for around $35K. Do you think yours was in that ballpark?
> 
> 
> 
> Smackdaddy... Winston built 2 Swains long before I built mine. I do not know about his costs and he built them himself. Mine was considerably more as there was 14 months labour to pay for.
Click to expand...


----------



## smackdaddy

seascene said:


> Smackdaddy... Winston built 2 Swains long before I built mine. I do not know about his costs and he built them himself. Mine was considerably more as there was 14 months labour to pay for.


That makes sense. Thanks sea.


----------



## smackdaddy

After seeing this quote from Brent in Bob's thread:



Brent Swain said:


> If you check the origamiboats site you will find origami boats of a wide variety of shapes, wide sterns ,narrow sterns ,canoe stern, wide bows, narrow bows, deep deadrise , shallow deadrise, single chines ,multi chines, radiused chines, etc etc. The one shape myth is just that, a myth, began by Michael Kasten who knows so little about the subject that he continues to decree impossible what we have been doing since 1980; perpetuated by those who have little or no understanding of origami boat building and no experience with it ,who have done nothing to educate themselves on the subject .


I was curious who this Kasten dude was. So I found some of his stuff. Sounds like a pretty reasonable guy with some pretty good experience. He has a good breakdown of the different metal building methods (including Origami) here:

Frames First or Plating First...?

And though his conclusion was that the origami method was interesting and clever, it was, at the end of the day, not really all that.

Even so, he doesn't seem to be pushing any "myths". As for the shape issue, all he says is pretty much what Brent says above. From Kasten's article...



> In other words, variations to the hull shape are difficult and time consuming to create, so the vessels are limited to being either larger or smaller, fatter or more slender, taller or shorter, having more or less sheer, yet essentially the same in their general shape and appearance.
> 
> Further, it must be kept in mind that just as with the "pre-cut-plate" method, the "Folded-Plate" or Origami method is generally only applicable to the hull plating itself, and not to the keel, rudder, deck, superstructure, nor to the equipment, rig, joinery, systems, etc. In other words, though it should be accomplished as efficiently as possible, erecting the plating is only a small part of building the hull, and a very small part of the whole picture.


Sounds about right.

Some may wonder why I'm so interested in this. Well, it's pretty simple...I have a Degree in Architecture and worked in it for several years before I became an entrepreneur. I was always drawn to organic works by guys like the Saarinens, Utzon, etc. While I was in school, there was this "crazy dude" in our area who was building a house on a cliff overlooking a lake - completely out of steel...










I loved it. I was amazed by it. But I also understood that this thing was taking decades to get done...by a guy who knew exactly what he was doing.

So, I love the concept of origami boats. It's brilliant really. I just want to really, and honestly understand what it takes to do one, and do it well, by someone who knows little about the whole process (i.e. - the Wannabe Cruiser).


----------



## tdw

smackdaddy said:


> snip
> 
> Some may wonder why I'm so interested in this. Well, it's pretty simple...I have a Degree in Architecture and worked in it for several years before I became an entrepreneur. I was always drawn to organic works by guys like the Saarinens, Utzon, etc. While I was in school, there was this "crazy dude" in our area who was building a house on a cliff overlooking a lake - completely out of steel...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I loved it. I was amazed by it. But I also understood that this thing was taking decades to get done...by a guy who knew exactly what he was doing.
> So, I love the concept of origami boats. It's brilliant really. I just want to really, and honestly understand what it takes to do one, and do it well, by someone who knows little about the whole process (i.e. - the Wannabe Cruiser).


.

Pretty cool Smack, pretty cool indeed though I'd rather it in the desert by a lake than on a cliff overlooking the ocean.

Its been said before but both from time and dollar cost building the hull apparently is the cheapest and easiest part of home/amateur building.


----------



## outbound

Smack ?Is that Corten? Remember when some thought that would put steel back in the picture at a level comparable to GRP. Too bad it didn't work out. When is someone gonna lay enough bucks on me to build in monel or titanium. (grin)


----------



## smackdaddy

Yep, it's Corten as far as I know (and judging by the appearance).

What kills me is all the gorgeous curvilinear shapes combined with freakin' plastic vertical blinds. Talk about throwing in the design towel.

I also have always wondered if the whole thing "ticks" when it's cooling down in the evening.


----------



## bljones

probably bings and bongs at dusk...
and is deafening in a rainstorm.


----------



## bobperry

I have the heaviest gauge steel roof we could found and it has never made a sound. Although we were warned that it would. It sounds nice in the rain. Maybe it just doesn't get hot enough here for it to be a problem.

I love that steel house. Hate the blinds. They muck the entire look up. It all looks so controlled until you see the blinds.


----------



## tdw

Bitten on the bum by budgetary restraints perhaps ?


----------



## bobperry

My thoughts are this:
I respect BS's origami method. It's clever.
It gives a fair hull based on the constraints of the geometric method.
But it's all about the method.
BS doesn't like to talk about numbers. Why?
He has none.
He doesn't even know what the boat displaces until he is done shaping it.
He sure as hell doesn't have a clue as to the basis hydrostatic paramaters.
He doesn't like numbers.

Is this bad?
No.
The eye is the the final judge. Then the sea.
But why ignore a very powereful tool in shaping your boats. Numbers can allow us to compare one hull to the next in an objective way. I always trust my eye. But, I do not ignore the numbers.

BS reacts very defensively when numbers come up. That should tell you something. He has no numbers. He can't even produce a 2D weight study. He gets very angry when you ask for one. It is an essential Yacht Design 101 component of design.

Would you like me to post a weight study? I'd be proud to do it. It's boring stuff but essential if you are going to be in control of the boat your are "designing".

How many weight studies do you want to see?
The SLIVER project weight study woukld be a good, simple one to start with.

I am very proud of the fact that I do a thorough job of designing new boats. I want to look at my own work and say, ""Hey Bob, that is really good." You did it in a way that is recognized as good naval architecture by people who know naval architecture.

The results speak for themselves.


----------



## jak3b

"The results speak for themselves."
Absolutely.Many examples of your work are here in SF Bay.I went on Valient 40 back in the 70's with my Father.He was seriously considering getting one after the Cal 33.My friend lives on one of your designs in Sausalito.Totaly comfortable,smart,well laid out boat.You galleys are the best Ive seen.You must cook.Brents problem is that he thinks he invented it all.That hes the only person who has ever 'got it'.That he has final solution.Maybe for brent.But he comes off as a totaly miserable recluse who has a chip on his shoulder.Origami construction is similer to cyclinder molded construction Kurt Hughes designs some of his multihulls for.Kurt tells you flat out that he cant really very acurately predict final shapes.He calls it 'seat of the pants' building.


----------



## bobperry

Jak:
Yes, I love to cook. I'm just a household cook but I do my best and I enjoy feeding people. I do know how a galley works. Thanks for noticing.

We need to get BS back here. He does contribute and it does none of us any good to have him banned. But he must learn to act like a man and answer questions in a professional manner. If he wants to be a petulant child than we have little choice but we do have a choice.

It would be nice if we could debate these issues honestly, with integrity and objectivity.
I'll try to do my part better in the future.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Jak:
> Yes, I love to cook. I'm just a household cook but I do my best and I enjoy feeding people. I do know how a galley works. Thanks for noticing.
> 
> We need to get BS back here. He does contribute and it does none of us any good to have him banned. But he must learn to act like a man and answer questions in a professional manner. If he wants to be a petulant child than we have little choice but we do have a choice.
> 
> It would be nice if we could debate these issues honestly, with integrity and objectivity.
> I'll try to do my part better in the future.


^^^^^This.

I honestly hate to see him crapping all over his legacy. He's done something interesting. He just needs to be honest about it and stop playing the Martyr of Oz.


----------



## jak3b

The Martyr of Oz, That has a ring to it Smack.Yves Marie Tanton has done some origami designs. His Imagiro series.It would be interesting to get his take on it.


----------



## bobperry

Pretty certain I would not put BS in the same league as Yves-Marie.


----------



## jak3b

bobperry said:


> Pretty certain I would not put BS in the same league as Yves-Marie.


Definately not.Just because I have been on a plane doesnt make me an aeronautical engineer..From looking in his catalog,YMT has done alot of work with the method .I am sure he would have a very realistic understanding of its benefits and limitations.


----------



## bobperry

Yves-Marie knows yacht design inside and out. He has the eye and he comprehends the numbers. I would not be the designer I am today without the year I spent working with Yves-Marie. He taught me precision in hand drafting.


----------



## jak3b

He has an incredible range of ideas going on just what Ive seen in his website.Definately an outside of the box thinker.


----------



## tdw

Brent was sent off on a short holiday. He was only given a couple of weeks not a permanent ban.


----------



## chall03

smackdaddy said:


> I am interested in something. Honestly.
> 
> Are there people out there reading this thread who are interested in building a steel boat? If so, what do you think about all this?


I have plans for a Radford 40footer I got hold of a couple of years ago. I was comtemplating building in steel at the time but I am a better cruiser/sailor than a boat builder and so just bought a plastic boat and went sailing, with a strong preference for NOT hitting anything solid and testing the strength of my hull.

I think there are a lot of ugly steel boats, especially over my side of the world with some notable exceptions, there is however no doubting the benefits of the material.

I think if I insulted Bob Perry's wife I would probably want to be surrounded by steel.

I think I I had a big wallet, an Aluminum Ovni would be on my shopping list, as would a Van de Stadt Samoa/Tasman in steel albeit happily alongside Plastic Hallberg Rassys and Amels.

I think if you have a mindset that says you need to have a steel boat in case you hit a reef, you should perhaps focus on enrolling in some navigation/seamanship classes.


----------



## jak3b

I like the idea that there are lots of choices available.I am mostly familier with wood as a working medium.I like it, like how it feels,how it smells.Its forgiving but I am not married to any one material.Id like to learn welding for the exercize of learning.It would be fun to learn something new.Maybe I could do some conceptual art with it.Chall I completely agree with you about Navigation.Hull material wont save you from bad navigation.


----------



## davidpm

I'm looking forward to when Brent gets back.
I ordered his book.


----------



## blt2ski

Bummer, did not know brent took vacations! hmmmmmmmm hopefully he will be back sooner or later........or some such thing.........

Bob, I'll wave north from the mukeltio bluff, will be doing some landscraping a bit north of my edmonds local tomorrow........

Marty


----------



## jak3b

Yup, Basic piloting 101 I learned when I was 10 in my little 7' rookie,Dont hits the rocks!.Also growing up and knowing the history and the stories of the New England coast gave me a very healthy respect for the Sea.


----------



## Alex W

I'm in Brent-land now and was anchored near a steel boat last night in the Octopus Islands (northern Quadra Island, about a long day's sail from Comox). It would be great if his website had photos of not only the two boats that he's built, but others that have been built using his processes. I wondered if the boat that I saw last night was one of his, but didn't see the owner and get a chance to ask.

There were actually two steel boats in the islands night, but the other was multihull (looked like a cross between a cruising catamaran and a battleship, I should have taken a photo).


----------



## joebeach

Foreshadowing what might occur on Brent's return:



bobperry said:


> ....We can build strong boats out of any material but ... steel is the best material. .... most of ... client I would advise steel.


Now you've done it, Bob. BS can now say, probably after recounting how he was forced to take incredible pains on SN to explain it all to a mere drawer of boat pictures, that he finally convinced Bob Perry to agree with him that steel boats are the best!

(Ducking quickly back into lurk mode.)


----------



## bobperry

Joe:
Very funny.
46 years ago I read a study conducted by the US Navy on the durability of hul materials. It concluded that steel was the most durable, i.e. watertight integrity could be maintained while sufferring major damage. Aluminum was next but alu had the problrem of rating lowest when sustaining minor impact. So I have known that steel is the "tooughest" hull material for some time. But the weight of steel makes it a bit confining for my design ideas and I prfer not to be constrained bu a geometry technique whether it be coninal developoment or NS's method. I want total control over my hull shapes. I have designed two steel boats and they came out nicely but I would prefer to work in composite, alu or wood veneers/foam. It's just the way I like to do it. My own favorite material is aluminum.


----------



## smackdaddy

Alex W said:


> I'm in Brent-land...


Unless you're having nightly dreams of giant $2.00 home-made steel origami unicorns breathing fire and crushing Valiants, Tayanas, and rocks between their teeth while Bob Perry stands on the shore screaming..."Nooooooooooo!!!!"

You're not in Brent-land.


----------



## outbound

Bob- ?Al. Went back and forth and back and forth again on this. Once wife said "Thought the idea was to never be cold again" so no high lat cruising and "Can we stay in a marina from time to time?"went with glass. Sure like to hear your reasoning. Tx.


----------



## bobperry

Out:
Took me a couple of minutes to figure out who "Al" was.

I like alu from a designer's point of view. I can integrate the structures easily and I can get a very good handle on the weights. I can also control the shaping of the deck structures better with alu compared to steel and I like to produce good looking boats. If I were choosing my own boat I would go composite like you for ease of maintenance.

Here is one of my favorite Perry alu boats. This is YONI built at Jespersens in BC. It has inside steering and is an extremely well built boat. It's about as far from the Value Village approach that BS preaches as you can get. This client did not want a cheap boat. He wanted a great boat. I tell the complete story of this design in my book.

I added the deck plan and sail plan drawings. These are some of the very last hand drawn drawings I produced. They are pencil and ink on 4 mil mylar. I worked hard from the time I was a kid to master hand drafting. Chuck Paine gives me a veryu nice call out on my drafting in his own book. I'm proud of this skill although I will most probably never use it again.

I added the General Construction drawing. This drawing was augmented by a framing drawing and a plating layout drawing. I don't have those digitized.


----------



## Jeff_H

Smack, 

A few days ago, you asked whether anyone on this thread had ever considered building a steel boat. I had relatively seriously. There was a time in my life when I almost always had ideas in my mind for the custom boat that I would design and build for myself, at least in that moment. Some of these musings never got beyond the simple sketch stage, while on others I would develop in a high degree of detail and might even put together detailed drawings, calculations and a detailed estimated cost of construction. 

I had first become aware of steel construction when I was running the drafting room at a naval architect's office designing an ocean going tugboat. Then when I worked for Charlie Wittholz, I was exposed to steel construction as it related to yachts. Charlie was a master at designing ‘deadrise’ sail boats (single chine) so that the chines looked right whether above or below the waterline. It started me thinking about steel as a building material. Probably 4-5 years earlier I had designed a small 26 foot MORC boat which designed with sheet plywood bottom, topsides, and decks, but with radiused cold molded chine. 

I had previously begun to design a 40 foot version of the smaller MORC boat to be constructed the same way as the MORC boat with epoxy and glass over a mix of sheet and cold molded plywood. I had gotten far enough to have priced out construction of that boat. After seeing what Charlie was doing with steel, I began to adapt that design to a roughly 40 foot multi-chine steel boat, which was a stretched version of the MORC boat but with an extra panel instead of the radiused cold molded chine on the wooden boat. (To imagine this think of a stretched Express 37 hull executed as a muilti-chine steel hull). 

I was actually a pretty fair welder at that point. Years earlier I had done a group project in architecture school in which we designed and fabricated a small steel bridge. That course included a chance to take a welding course at a vocational school which I opted to do. I had gotten good enough to weld the light gauge steel tubing that I used to build the frames for the motorcycles that I raced in my 20’s, and so thought with some practice and a bit more instruction I could get my welding skills up to a point where I could weld up my own hull. 

This design did not follow the origami concept per se, and the deck and house were glass over wood to save weight. The hull plating was steel, as was the internal framing. In terms of framing, I had planned to have some transverse frames or partial bulkheads at the forward end of the vee-berths as a kind of collision bulkhead, three in the area of the keel attachment, mast, and at rig load points, another near the engine mounts and in the version with the skeg-hung rudder and internal rudder post, at the skeg. (There was an outboard rudder version which did not have the aft transverse frame. I also planned to have longitudinal flat bar on edge frames near the end of the chines and on either side of the bilge. I had gone so far as to create ‘nesting plans’ showing how the parts would fit on the steel plates to minimize waste. And then I priced the steel and the protective coatings . At the time the cost numbers came back very high compared to the numbers that I had for the wooden/glass composite version. 

But the steel hull was also substantially heavier than the wooden hull (maybe 30%, which added roughly 10-12% to the overall weight of the boat). In a value engineering exercise, I began doing comparative structural calculations to see whether I could use lighter steel panels, or whether the wooden panel thicknesses were too thin and therefore needed to be beefed up. What also surprised me at the time was that wooden hull was actually stiffer and stronger in bending than the steel hull even though it was lighter. 

At that time, I was not able to do impact studies so I assume to this day that the steel version would have had greater impact capacity and certainly would have had better abrasion resistance than that particular composite of wood and glass. I had a chance to discuss this with Charlie at some point after that and it was his sense that the weight disparity was less as the boat got larger so that at some point over 45 or so feet steel became more compelling as a building material. 

For all kinds of other reasons, I never built either boat, but I have owned a number of FG boats that I could daysail, race, and cruise and have done so continuously ever since. 

I also want to talk a little about my views on Brent’s work. While I agree with Bob that Brent does not seem to have done the math to back up his designs, I am not sure that bothers me. What Brent describes as his process is very similar to what traditionally happened with the evolution of working water craft. By and large, working watercraft were never drawn up. Builders would make small scale models by eye, and the take measurements off of those models. These were experienced builders and they would draw on their experience from one design to another. They would also tweak a design toward something they expected would improve the design. Sometimes the boats were better, sometimes not, but with each iteration they learned what worked and what didn’t and improved their designs. 

In that regard, what Brent has done over the years, follows in the footsteps of very venerable tradition. I would be the last to criticize that tradition. 

But within that tradition, there was also an understanding that in the absence of formal weight studies, there had to be reliance that these vessels would be operated by knowledgeable skippers and crews, who would load them in a way that the ship sat properly on its lines, with ballast and cargo shifted to accommodate the changing loads. 

I respect the inventive details on his boats, which cleverly employs ‘found objects’ to produce simple, inexpensive (ignoring the value of fabrication time for the moment) and functional solutions. 

If Brent merely said, ”I follow in a working water craft tradition of trial and error design, using workboat levels of finish and that is all I and my clients aspire to. There have been a bunch of boats built to my designs that have operated up to expectations. For one off designs they were moderately quick to build and reasonably cost effective.” I would respect that and understand how that fits into the broad range of options out there.

Where I suggest that Brent goes off the rails is when he claims a universality to his thinking suggesting that everyone would be better off with one of his boats for the reasons that he and his clients prefer his boats. He denies that other people may have values different than his own which is get out cruising quickly while you are young. (While I have no gripe that this is in fact the right answer for some people, I also think that others of us might actually think that a life well lived needs to be broader than that, and may actually prefer to be a part of a shore side community, contribute to society, and perhaps have families or that people may actually value aesthetics and craftsmanship.) 

My other gripe with Brent is that he denies the value of science and engineering, and makes claims which are dubious at best, without the ability to provide real data to back up his dismissals; providing instead non-symmetrical arguments (i.e. comparing the strength of a purpose built, one off steel boat, to a value oriented glass hull) or hyperbole filled anecdotes intended to be a metaphor for real life (i.e. the ability of a 5/16 steel plate to stop a bullet vs. a fir stump, which ignores that the real comparison is a low speed impact and a comparison between a 3/16” steel plate, and a equal weight composite with Kevlar skins and nearly 2 3/8” of wood behind it. ) 

Unfortunately, all that said, I suspect that Brent and I are close to the same age, and that at our age nothing any of us say to him is going to change his thought process or point of view, nor is he likely to change mine. We have been trading jibes for what must at least 15 years and a bunch of forums. Over the years I have put up speadsheets showing the data and assumptions that I have used as the basis of my positions, with Brent usually responding by calling me a liar, denying the science, or countering with some irrelevant metaphor. At this point I must admit that I view Brent as being in the unenviable position of Monty Python’s Black Knight, insisting "'Tis but a scratch", "I’ve had worse", "It's just a flesh wound!" and finally, “All right, we'll call it a draw." 

It’s not a draw….its a shame.

Jeff


----------



## bobperry

Whippersnappers!


----------



## jak3b

Chronological age is sometimes misleading.When Brent went on the tuff guy MMA thing my guess would have been a 15 to 16 year old in serious need of getting laid.


----------



## jak3b

Heres an article by YMT about his Steelstar design.She is like a steel Ragtime.He makes some interesting points.
Design Review


----------



## smackdaddy

Very well put Jeff. 

And we all know what material The Black Knight's armor was made of.


----------



## bobperry

jak:
That's an interesting ands handsome YMT design. But here are the questions I ask myself when I study that design:

Of the boats YMT lists as inspirations, i.e. long, light, narrow boats, how many are steel?
What do the boats he list all have in common? Light weight hull construction, even RAGTIME.

What is the one thing you need to make a long, narrow, lght boat go to weather? Stiffness from a low VCG. This is hard to do with a steel boat. Every extra ounce in the shell is an ounce out of the ballast. This is excatly the reason that long, light, narrow boats are usually built with lightweight shells.

There most probably are several very good reasons you do not see long, light, narrow boats built from steel.

But I could be wrong. You make a list of your own existing examples to prove me wrong.

Not sure YMT's design was ever built. I've never seen one. Does anyone know?


----------



## outbound

Bob-that's a pretty boat.in some ways reminds me of the pre glass trinella boats.yours is prettier of course. Still think the k& m 50 in aluminum is a sweet boat.hear they now make it in glass and it took boat of the year in Europe. Still, if I could have one would do it aluminum and head for the Bergie bits. Problem is would come home alone as admiral don't like taut nipples from the cold.grin


----------



## jak3b

bobperry said:


> jak:
> That's an interesting ands handsome YMT design. But here are the questions I ask myself when I study that design:
> 
> Of the boats YMT lists as inspirations, i.e. long, light, narrow boats, how many are steel?
> What do the boats he list all have in common? Light weight hull construction, even RAGTIME.
> 
> What is the one thing you need to make a long, narrow, lght boat go to weather? Stiffness from a low VCG. This is hard to do with a steel boat. Every extra ounce in the shell is an ounce out of the ballast. This is excatly the reason that long, light, narrow boats are usually built with lightweight shells.
> 
> There most probably are several very good reasons you do not see long, light, narrow boats built from steel.
> 
> But I could be wrong. You make a list of your own existing examples to prove me wrong.
> 
> Not sure YMT's design was ever built. I've never seen one. Does anyone know?


My thought exactly Bob. As I read the article I couldnt think of any steel sleds.I did read somewhere recently that he has a Steelstar 50 that is being built of Alu.If I can find it Ill post it.Ragtime was here a few years back I think for ther Pacific cup.Very interesting boat she had a carbon spar that had some problems they were working out.


----------



## bobperry

Out:
So your wife has taught nipples and my wife, ex professional free style skier is fat.
We need to elevate this conversation. A least leave my wife out of it.

Have any pics of your wife in the cold?
Probably should take that to CA.


----------



## tdw

bobperry said:


> My SLIVER gets moved out of the boat yard on Thursday. No maybe's. No I think it could happen. No crazy dreams of what a yacht can be. But, a real, major, custom 62' yacht will be moved to to CSR in Seattle where the finishing details will be added.
> 
> I like reality.


Should be a great day BP. Pics please.


----------



## smackdaddy

Well Bob, I'd say it's time to celebrate!

Bring out the nipples!


----------



## tdw

Pshaw ..... now these are nipples ..... slippery nipples.










and in cold weather of course .....


----------



## jak3b

Bob,Sliver looks like she will go like a scalded cat and leave the slightest wake.Great thread there on CA to.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Out:
> So your wife has taught nipples


Where can I take that class? Do they teach how to get nipples *taut*?


----------



## bobperry

"taught"? "taut"?
I knew that.


----------



## Donna_F

ohforcryingoutloud.


----------



## blt2ski

DRFerron said:


> ohforcryingoutloud.


:worthless:


----------



## mark2gmtrans

SloopJonB said:


> Where can I take that class? Do they teach how to get nipples *taut*?


If you need the class it may be too late for you.


----------



## bobperry

"ohforcryingoutloud."

I didn't even know that was a word.
I'm still working on "dagnabbitt".


----------



## jak3b

Kind of like "ohfercrisakes"


----------



## bobperry

" authentic frontier gibbersish".


----------



## jak3b

Sailnet,.....The final frontier


----------



## TQA

For anybody thinking of building a steel boat here is a link to the very well documented build of a Roberts 43. CLICKY

It took them 10 years.


----------



## smackdaddy

Wow TQ. That is definitely well documented!

The timeline sounds about right. What is ironic is this statement at the very beginning:



> My partner, Gena, and I have decided to take an early retirement
> in* three or four years* to voyage around the world by sail, cruising from
> country to port, *while we're still young enough to do so!*


It ain't always as promised eh?

So do you want to build a steel boat for the next X years? Or do you want to sail?


----------



## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> So do you want to build a boat for the next X years? Or do you want to sail?


Fixed it.


----------



## SloopJonB

DRFerron said:


> ohforcryingoutloud.


It's a guy thing.


----------



## bobperry

Ten years?
To borrow a golf phrase:
"While we are young."


----------



## jak3b

10 years and a bad back from moving heavy crap around.


----------



## aeventyr60

jak3b said:


> 10 years and a bad back from moving heavy crap around.


Yep, those folks are still building, while we've been out for 14 years, in a well found fiberglass leaky teaky. Thanks Bob!


----------



## bobperry

You are most welcome.

I have found over the years that there are people who want to own a boat and there are people who want to build a boat. Sometimes it's the same person but usually not. In the case of the guy who wants to build a boat finishing the boat is often the last thing he wants. For him finishing the project means the fun is over and now he has to try and sail the boat and in many cases this terrifies him.

When I was a kid I rowed over to a floating boat shop where a noted curmudgeon Pocock was building a big wooden schooner. He was notorious for chasing looky loos away. But I rowed over in a wooden Whitehall and caught his eye. He motioned me over and asked if he could take a look at the Whitehall. I said sure "If I can take a look at your schooner." He grumbled and said OK. I looked at the massive plank of frame traditional boat he was building single handed and then I asked an innocent question," Where are you going to sail it when it's done?" He responded with, "Isn' it enough that I build it? Do I have to sail it too?" I felt spanked and left. Shortly after that the floating boat shop burned down.


----------



## outbound

Sorry I haven't been following this thread. I've been out sailing. Still, going back to OP's orginal question.
For those with the skill set, appropriate space and and TIME building in steel can make sense. My father in law's best friend built a drop dead gorgeous 62' steel trawler over ~5y. He had employees help with the steel work, had another company due the blasting and coating ( a sub contractor he used in his business), a friend who was a master electrician do the wiring and so forth. He retired and went cruising. As far as I know he's still on that boat.


----------



## TQA

smackdaddy said:


> Wow TQ. That is definitely well documented!
> 
> The timeline sounds about right. What is ironic is this statement at the very beginning:
> 
> It ain't always as promised eh?
> 
> So do you want to build a steel boat for the next X years? Or do you want to sail?


The really really sad thing is if you look at their voyage log it seems that they only made a short offshore passage, got hit by some bad weather and gave up on the sailing lark.


----------



## bobperry

I once had an Oregon farmer build a beautifull, multi chine version of a center cockpit Norseman 447. I made some improvements to the design and he built it single handed. It was a work of art. He sailed boat for many years before selling it. Side by side with a grp Norseman you would be hard pressed to tell which one was the alu boat.


----------



## smackdaddy

TQA said:


> The really really sad thing is if you look at their voyage log it seems that they only made a short offshore passage, got hit by some bad weather and gave up on the sailing lark.


Oooh - I hadn't gotten that far. So, you choose a steel boat to withstand heavy weather. Then you chuck it when you run into heavy weather?

That was apparently a very misinformed "dream".


----------



## tdw

bobperry said:


> I once had an Oregon farmer build a beautifull, multi chine version of a center cockpit Norseman 447. I made some improvements to the design and he built it single handed. It was a work of art. He sailed boat for many years before selling it. Side by side with a grp Norseman you would be hard pressed to tell which one was the alu boat.


Drool. The N447 is one seriously handsome boat.


----------



## bobperry

Yeah, this guy, Lanny Crocker, started buying land when he was a kid and ended up with a very serious farm. But he told me the secret was being able to do all the work yourself so he was a master of many trades. He was a magician with aluminum. You want a stuffing box? Lanny could build a stuffing box. "I have dozens of them on the farm." In many ways he was the ultimate BS builder except for the fact he had an eye for good design and he could sail. I think it took him three years to finish the boat.


----------



## SloopJonB

The Norseman 44 & 447 AC is way up my list of favourites. I, myself, personally think it has the best looking cabin structure you have ever designed. That picklefork effect at the mast was a stroke of brilliance IMHO - traps dropped handles and so forth, increases headroom below, looks dramatic etc. etc.

I always wondered if you were influenced at all by the "bin" setup on the Tartan 41 deck.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
Believe it or not the deck design of the Norseman was one of those breakfast restaurant napkin sketches I did when having my first meeting with the client. I think I am the very first designer to use pickle forks to hide deck contours and I see them all the time today on mega yachts. I also agree that it is probably the absolute best looking CC deck on any boat under 50'. Sometimes you hit a home run.

I ran into Bill Dixon at the Ta Yang engineering office. He was drawing away and next to his drawing was my drawing of the N447 deck. I was pissed off at him anyway because he had snagged the Taswel line( because he gave Ta Yang an exclusive) so I said to him." What are you doing Dixon?" He said, "I'm making the deck look more like the Norseman deck." He was honest. I said, "Come on Dixon. We are going to lunch. I'll teach you how to eat too." That is pretty much verbatim. He was hopeless with chopsticks. Food everywhere. Disgusting.


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## jak3b

Lowfan guai lo.


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## bobperry

That's Cantonese.
"Lowfan" old rice?


----------



## tdw

Very few CCs come close to the 447. Interesting about Bill Dixon .... I remmber being anchored next to a Taswell a few years back and thinking how much she reminded me of the 447.

I still do not get the segmented dinette. I know it would work for a bunch of people sitting around but I am obsessed with being able to lie down. I don't even like the curved settee backs on our Malo, indeed I'm getting ready to re do them.

Aft cockpit 447 is even droolier than the CC imo.



bobperry said:


> Jon:
> Believe it or not the deck design of the Norseman was one of those breakfast restaurant napkin sketches I did when having my first meeting with the client. I think I am the very first designer to use pickle forks to hide deck contours and I see them all the time today on mega yachts. I also agree that it is probably the absolute best looking CC deck on any boat under 50'. Sometimes you hit a home run.
> 
> I ran into Bill Dixon at the Ta Yang engineering office. He was drawing away and next to his drawing was my drawing of the N447 deck. I was pissed off at him anyway because he had snagged the Taswel line( because he gave Ta Yang an exclusive) so I said to him." What are you doing Dixon?" He said, "I'm making the deck look more like the Norseman deck." He was honest. I said, "Come on Dixon. We are going to lunch. I'll teach you how to eat too." That is pretty much verbatim. He was hopeless with chopsticks. Food everywhere. Disgusting.


----------



## jak3b

bobperry said:


> That's Cantonese.
> "Lowfan" old rice?


Yup, cantonese.It might literaly mean that but it is useally referring to someone caucasion,uncouth,barbaric, a slob, and gwai lo a white ghost
Sometimes used together but not often.


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## SloopJonB

The trick to using chopsticks, if you simply can't learn to handle them, is to not split them apart - use them as tweezers instead. 

Of course if you've been given good individual chopsticks you better have a rubber band handy.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

bobperry said:


> Jon:
> Believe it or not the deck design of the Norseman was one of those breakfast restaurant napkin sketches I did when having my first meeting with the client. I think I am the very first designer to use pickle forks to hide deck contours and I see them all the time today on mega yachts. I also agree that it is probably the absolute best looking CC deck on any boat under 50'. Sometimes you hit a home run.
> 
> I ran into Bill Dixon at the Ta Yang engineering office. He was drawing away and next to his drawing was my drawing of the N447 deck. I was pissed off at him anyway because he had snagged the Taswel line( because he gave Ta Yang an exclusive) so I said to him." What are you doing Dixon?" He said, "I'm making the deck look more like the Norseman deck." He was honest. I said, "Come on Dixon. We are going to lunch. I'll teach you how to eat too." That is pretty much verbatim. He was hopeless with chopsticks. Food everywhere. Disgusting.


This is a great thread, have read every single post but entirely in lurking mode.

But now I have to ask: what is a 'pickle fork?' Sorry for my ignorance.


----------



## bobperry

Mast:
When I designed the Norseman they asked for basically the same kind of boat as I had design for the Lafitte group, the Lafitte 44. This meant a flush deck forward. No problem. OK, one small problem, headroom under the flush deck. I did not want copious freeboard. I designed a bubble to be superimposed upon the nornam deck camber forward of the short cabin trunk. This bubble, something I had seen oin older C&C designs, was effective but I was keen on the profile of it, a bit nebulous. So I extended two "prongs forward from the edges of the cabin trunk, that were tapered and high enough to hide the profile of the bubble. Somebody called these prongs "pickle forks". Maybe it was me. I dont recall. I searched my pic files but I do not have a digitized pic of a Norseman. I'm one of the clever chaps on this forum can come up with one.

I used the volume in the prongs for line bins and to form the boxes for Dorade vents in the forward end of the pickle fork. Unfortunately the volume in the end of the fork was inadequate and they did not work well. My bad.

Al Mason showed up at my ofice one day unannounced. I was honored. He had some questions about what I provided to the builders in Taiwan to guide them through the building of a deck plug. I showed him several of my deck lines drawings. While basking in the glow of having Al Mason ask me for advice I said I had a question for him. I wanted to know how much volume to put in a Dorade box. I knew he had worked at S&S and they don't guess at S&S, I thought. Al said, "Just draw it so it looks right. Then make it twice that big." Those were his exact words.

Al died about six months later.


----------



## bobperry

Jak:
I was visiting the yard in Xiamen, China. I went out one night and found myself in a packed club with a pretty elaborate stage show featuring various acts. One act was a solo girl singer who played guitar and sang in her version of English. When she finished I went over and talked to her in my very best Mandarin. She spoke equivalent English. I told her I played. She asked if I wanted to play. Not being a solo artist of any color I said no thanks and went back to my tiny round table. A half hour later I felt a tapping on my shoulder. It was the girl singer, "It's your time." ****ski! But I thought, "What the hell. Nobody here knows me. I might as well give it a shot." She handed me her guitar and I went up on stage. The MC introduced me as "Low Bie". I didn't think much about it. I played some John Lee Hooker type guitar riffs for a while then people started yelling "Sing!" Double ****ski. I'm not really a singer except when I am drunk and I wasn't drunk. So I sung PONCHO AND LEFTY I got a huge round of applause and returned to my little table which now was covered in new beers. Back in the condo later I puzzled over the "Low Bie" and I called one of the Chinese yard guys I knew. He said I had been introduced as "Old White"". He thought it was a bit of an insult. I thought it was cool. I had a "blues name". Old White.

The next night I took my client to the same club and I played again. It took my client by surprise. He said, "I didn't know you could do that." I said, "Me either."

My next trip I was prepared and I was ready to explain the story of PONCHO and LEFTY in Mandarin. The club was gone.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

bobperry said:


> Mast:
> When I designed the Norseman they asked for basically the same kind of boat as I had design for the Lafitte group, the Lafitte 44. This meant a flush deck forward. No problem. OK, one small problem, headroom under the flush deck. I did not want copious freeboard. I designed a bubble to be superimposed upon the nornam deck camber forward of the short cabin trunk. This bubble, something I had seen oin older C&C designs, was effective but I was keen on the profile of it, a bit nebulous. So I extended two "prongs forward from the edges of the cabin trunk, that were tapered and high enough to hide the profile of the bubble. Somebody called these prongs "pickle forks". Maybe it was me. I dont recall. I searched my pic files but I do not have a digitized pic of a Norseman. I'm one of the clever chaps on this forum can come up with one.
> 
> I used the volume in the prongs for line bins and to form the boxes for Dorade vents in the forward end of the pickle fork. Unfortunately the volume in the end of the fork was inadequate and they did not work well. My bad.
> 
> Al Mason showed up at my ofice one day unannounced. I was honored. He had some questions about what I provided to the builders in Taiwan to guide them through the building of a deck plug. I showed him several of my deck lines drawings. While basking in the glow of having Al Mason ask me for advice I said I had a question for him. I wanted to know how much volume to put in a Dorade box. I knew he had worked at S&S and they don't guess at S&S, I thought. Al said, "Just draw it so it looks right. Then make it twice that big." Those were his exact words.
> 
> Al died about six months later.


Thank you, Bob.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Al Mason showed up at my ofice one day unannounced. I was honored. He had some questions about what I provided to the builders in Taiwan to guide them through the building of a deck plug. I showed him several of my deck lines drawings. While basking in the glow of having Al Mason ask me for advice I said I had a question for him. I wanted to know how much volume to put in a Dorade box. I knew he had worked at S&S and they don't guess at S&S, I thought. Al said, "Just draw it so it looks right. Then make it twice that big." Those were his exact words.
> 
> Al died about six months later.


You know you have arrived when.....


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Jak:
> I was visiting the yard in Xiamen, China. I went out one night and found myself in a packed club with a pretty elaborate stage show featuring various acts. One act was a solo girl singer who played guitar and sang in her version of English. When she finished I went over and talked to her in my very best Mandarin. She spoke equivalent English. I told her I played. She asked if I wanted to play. Not being a solo artist of any color I said no thanks and went back to my tiny round table. A half hour later I felt a tapping on my shoulder. It was the girl singer, "It's your time." ****ski! But I thought, "What the hell. Nobody here knows me. I might as well give it a shot." She handed me her guitar and I went up on stage. The MC introduced me as "Low Bie". I didn't think much about it. I played some John Lee Hooker type guitar riffs for a while then people started yelling "Sing!" Double ****ski. I'm not really a singer except when I am drunk and I wasn't drunk. So I sung PONCHO AND LEFTY I got a huge round of applause and returned to my little table which now was covered in new beers. Back in the condo later I puzzled over the "Low Bie" and I called one of the Chinese yard guys I knew. He said I had been introduced as "Old White"". He thought it was a bit of an insult. I thought it was cool. I had a "blues name". Old White.
> 
> The next night I took my client to the same club and I played again. It took my client by surprise. He said, "I didn't know you could do that." I said, "Me either."
> 
> My next trip I was prepared and I was ready to explain the story of PONCHO and LEFTY in Mandarin. The club was gone.


Judging by how crazy the Chinese seem to be for Karaoke  I don't think anyone with even minimal talent should be afraid to get up on a Chinese stage.


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## bobperry

Jon:
That's kind of what I figured and I sure as hell wasn't going to insult them by not singing. I chose to insult them by singing.


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## jak3b

bobperry said:


> Jon:
> That's kind of what I figured and I sure as hell wasn't going to insult them by not singing. I chose to insult them by singing.


Thats great!. I have spent some time in in SE Asia.They LOVE karaoke everywhere I went.I cant sing to save me life.But I was at a karaoke club and my friends wouldnt let me off the hook, I wasnt drunk either so I sang a Thai song by Carabao.The screen had the closest equivelent in english.They gave me a big applause and we had lots of laughs.Everybody sings, that seems to be the idea.The little Cantonese I know I picked up here in San Francisco.


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## jak3b

This is the pickle fork?


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## bobperry

Thanks jak. Yep, that's it. You can just barely make out the bubble between the forks.


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## SloopJonB

Now is that a macho looking boat or what?


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## kwaltersmi

I missed the beginning of this thread, but thought I'd add an interesting perspective that Ted Brewer provided for my blog. Of particular note, Ted disucsses the creation of a radius chine from metal. You can read it here: The Metal Yacth - Aluminum & Steel Sailboat Perspectives


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## MastUndSchotbruch

jak3b said:


> This is the pickle fork?


Thank you much!


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## SloopJonB

kwaltersmi said:


> I missed the beginning of this thread, but thought I'd add an interesting perspective that Ted Brewer provided for my blog. Of particular note, Ted disucsses the creation of a radius chine from metal. You can read it here: The Metal Yacth - Aluminum & Steel Sailboat Perspectives


I've seen some of Ted's radius chine boats. They are a huge improvement over a hard chine and I believe, or understand that they provide a method for a relatively unskilled person to produce a round hull.

At least when they are on the hard, it IS still possible to recognize them as largely flat panel construction though. In the water, not so much.


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## bobperry

I used radiused chines for my alu Norseman. It took a pretty well honed eye to tell it wasn't round bilge. But I used two chines per side.

Slightly off topic, no actually way off topic but WTF. The 63' SLIVER Project left the building today to be trucked to the CSR yard in Seattle where it will be painted, keel put on finished and rigged. It was fun to be able to step back and see the boat from a distance. Obviolsy I am biased but I think it is a spectacular looking boat.


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## JomsViking

bobperry said:


> I used radiused chines for my alu Norseman. It took a pretty well honed eye to tell it wasn't round bilge. But I used two chines per side.
> 
> Slightly off topic, no actually way off topic but WTF. The 63' SLIVER Project left the building today to be trucked to the CSR yard in Seattle where it will be painted, keel put on finished and rigged. It was fun to be able to step back and see the boat from a distance. Obviolsy I am biased but I think it is a spectacular looking boat.


Sure is spectacular looking!


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## jak3b

Very Cool design and a great project Bob.Cant wait to see the launch.


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## bobperry

The keel fin is steel as is the floor structure that spreads out the keel and mast step loads. Launch should be in two months, or so. Yard says one to two months. We'll see.

This first pic was taken right after I told my client Kim the outstanding balance on the design fee.
The last pic is me and Ruby. She maintains my sanity and sense of modesty. Not sure she is very good at either job but I love her anyway.


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## outbound

Should fly.sweet hull.


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## bobperry

Here are a few more images for you.


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## jak3b

Beautiful Bob.Whats the final paint scheme going to be?.


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## bobperry

jak:
Matterhorn white hull. Two tone white and contrasting non skid deck. Not sure but it might be buff, might be grey nonskid. Gold cove, dark blue and red double bootstripes.
Nothing elaborate just something subtle and classy.


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## SloopJonB

Bob - a hard learned tip for the future. If your clients clutch their chests at your words, you need to develop a tad more subtlety. 

That Sliver is a spectacular boat. Sure is nice to be rich - I couldn't even afford the dockage.

Do you have any pics of, or links to, the metal Norseman?


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## smackdaddy

To me, whether I can afford it or not has absolutely nothing to do with it. 

It's spectacular. That's enough.


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## blt2ski

May have to get by CSR tomorrow........if I am lucky!.............

Marty


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## jak3b

bobperry said:


> jak:
> Matterhorn white hull. Two tone white and contrasting non skid deck. Not sure but it might be buff, might be grey nonskid. Gold cove, dark blue and red double bootstripes.
> Nothing elaborate just something subtle and classy.


Very nice.Id go with a light grey non-skid myself, jus sayin'.


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## outbound

Have buff with all deck canvas same color. Slightly different hues.Looks good and brings your eye to the lines of the boat. Also easiest color to look at when the sun is glaring. Don't like boats with too many colors. Detracts from the looks too busy. Don't like bright colors. Too hard live with and to maintain.


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## bobperry

Out:
Given that this is a custom boat the owner will have say on the paint scheme. I have made my recommendations and the owner has gone along with my suggestions. I made general suggestions, i.e. "dark blue" now the owner and Mrs. Owner can pick the exact colors. Color choice is very personal. As my very first client told me many years ago, "It's not your boat Bob."


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## mark2gmtrans

Bob, ever thought about buying one of those portable defibrillators to have along when you give the client the total bill? He looked like he was a little distressed HAHA. I am sure he was tickled pink, and is about to burst with anticipation on getting such a beautiful vessel into the water and under sail. Great work, once again.


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## SloopJonB

That boat should be dark blue or dark red, slightly greyish white superstructure with very pale grey non skid and canvas to match the hull colour.

There are no other options.


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## outbound

Gotta agree with you Bob.they have own it.especially with a custom boat it has express their dreams. Still, I'm old time and agree with old Nate . White or the wrong color.


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## bobperry

Jon:
When we build one for you we will let you have any color you desire.
Don't imagine for a second that a whole variety of paint schemes were not discussed. I make sure that a thorough approach is taken. In the end we felt a white boat would be the best way to go. No need to accentuate the low freeboard. It's low. Very low.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

bobperry said:


> Jon:
> When we build one for you we will let you have any color you desire.
> Don't imagine for a second that a whole variety of paint schemes were not discussed. I make sure that a thorough approach is taken. In the end we felt a white boat would be the best way to go. No need to accentuate the low freeboard. It's low. Very low.


It should be polka dotted mixed with rainbow zebra stripes...or else probably paint it whatever color the guy who already had the heart attack for having to write the check wants it painted.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Jon:
> When we build one for you we will let you have any color you desire.
> Don't imagine for a second that a whole variety of paint schemes were not discussed. I make sure that a thorough approach is taken. In the end we felt a white boat would be the best way to go. No need to accentuate the low freeboard. It's low. Very low.


Did you try out various combos with those incredible "photographic" computer renderings you have done?

I'm assuming that the colours can be changed with the press of a button (more or less) once the rendering is developed.


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## bobperry

Jon:
No, I don't need to.
I have been staring at sailing yachts now for 53 years. I think I know how to design a paint job without having to see it rendered. I have done this before.


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## SloopJonB

I have a very good eye for colour - inherited from my artist mother - but I find that colours can surprise you. Maybe not so much with boats but certainly with cars and many other sculptural forms, different colours can strongly affect the visual perception of the shape.

A very good illustration of this effect is the current Corvette - done in silver it gets a fighter jet quality - all the planes and edges get sharpened and very defined. Done in black it gets a much more rounded quality, done in red it looks less distinctive - makes it more ordinary. Yellow makes it look bigger.

Oftentimes different colours can make a big difference in the apparent size of an object as well as the effective proportions of it.


----------



## outbound

My moms a artist as well.Taught at h.s. and college level.dad did advertising ran a ad house. Not only does color effect perception of shape and size but also has major emotional impact. Sister ship came in two days ago for outfitting. Mine is white with black details ( bootstrap,cove line etc.) his is white and a baby blue. My interior is blond teak, off white corian marbled with earth tones and beige/tan micro suede . His is blue and blue tartan. Same crew is in and out of both boats outfitting. In my boat they converse. In his the volume goes up


----------



## bobperry

Can't say I have an eye for color but I have looked at a lot of boats and I know what colors work and why. I notice that almost all car adds on TV feature dark colored cars. I love dark hulls but I know they can be a PITA to maintain. The color scheme of my boats is seldom my call. I offer advice and let the owner do his thing, As Jon pointed out, today we will most probably have 3D renderings well before the boat is finished so colors can be explored ad nauseum.


----------



## SloopJonB

outbound said:


> My moms a artist as well.Taught at h.s. and college level.dad did advertising ran a ad house. Not only does color effect perception of shape and size but also has major emotional impact. Sister ship came in two days ago for outfitting. Mine is white with black details ( bootstrap,cove line etc.) his is white and a baby blue. My interior is blond teak, off white corian marbled with earth tones and beige/tan micro suede . His is blue and blue tartan. Same crew is in and out of both boats outfitting. In my boat they converse. In his the volume goes up


Now that is interesting - I don't think I've ever noticed that speech levels change in relation to the colour environment - now I'm going to be watching for it.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Can't say I have an eye for color but I have looked at a lot of boats and I know what colors work and why. I notice that almost all car adds on TV feature dark colored cars. I love dark hulls but I know they can be a PITA to maintain. The color scheme of my boats is seldom my call. I offer advice and let the owner do his thing, As Jon pointed out, today we will most probably have 3D renderings well before the boat is finished so colors can be explored ad nauseum.


Bob - was I correct in my assumption that with those amazing renderings the colour is "only a click away" or does it take some effort to change it?


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
I'm not sure. I don't do that magic. But I know enough about those programs to figure that yes, the color change is only a click away. The hard part comes with trying to match the color your monitor shows you with the color you will get on a print. But an experienced hand will have his favorite colors nailed.


----------



## Brent Swain

davidpm said:


> I'm looking forward to when Brent gets back.
> I ordered his book.


Sent a book to Madison yesterday. Thanks


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> After seeing this quote from Brent in Bob's thread:
> 
> I was curious who this Kasten dude was. So I found some of his stuff. Sounds like a pretty reasonable guy with some pretty good experience. He has a good breakdown of the different metal building methods (including Origami) here:
> 
> Frames First or Plating First...?
> 
> And though his conclusion was that the origami method was interesting and clever, it was, at the end of the day, not really all that.
> 
> Even so, he doesn't seem to be pushing any "myths". As for the shape issue, all he says is pretty much what Brent says above. From Kasten's article...
> 
> Sounds about right.
> 
> Some may wonder why I'm so interested in this. Well, it's pretty simple...I have a Degree in Architecture and worked in it for several years before I became an entrepreneur. I was always drawn to organic works by guys like the Saarinens, Utzon, etc. While I was in school, there was this "crazy dude" in our area who was building a house on a cliff overlooking a lake - completely out of steel...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I loved it. I was amazed by it. But I also understood that this thing was taking decades to get done...by a guy who knew exactly what he was doing.
> 
> So, I love the concept of origami boats. It's brilliant really. I just want to really, and honestly understand what it takes to do one, and do it well, by someone who knows little about the whole process (i.e. - the Wannabe Cruiser).


Anyone can check the origamiboats site ( yahoo groups) or my book, or Alex's video and see origami methods being used to build decks, cabins, keels, rudders, skegs, cockpit and wheelhouses which we have done since the first origami boats I built in 1980, something Kasten says cant be done. Origami methods mean welding deck beams and stringers on, on a workbench working at a comfortable level ,eliminating overhead welding in awkward positions for that job.
This can also be done with traditional framed boats, saving ahuge amount of overhead, awkward work. It is clear that Kasten made his comments without bothering to educate himself on the subject of origami methods. I have pointed this out to him in an email , so he is no longer oblivious to the facts, yet he continues the disinformation campaign, holding back the advancement of small steel boat construction..
As I pointed out, I have put the decks on a 36 in 8 hours, not so easy working overhead in the traditional way. My time and money saving methods go far beyond the construction of a hull, including saving a lot of money on detailing and fitting out.. You can get more factual information from the origamiboats site, yahoo groups, from people who have actual hands on experience with the method, rather than uninformed speculation, misleadingly offered as fact .


----------



## smackdaddy

Woohoo! Welcome back Brent!


----------



## Brent Swain

I sincerely apologise to Bobs wife, for involving someone who is not involved in any way. After Bobs very personal insults to me and my work, I guess I didn't see the part where he and others are allowed to insult anyone they please with impunity, and their targets are nor allowed to respond in kind. I had no business involving an inocent third party. If you go back you will find my responses are just that, responses to personal insults, first hurled at me.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I sincerely apologise to Bobs wife, for involving someone who is not involved in any way. I had no business involving an inocent third party.


Fixed it for you. This is really all that matters.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> My thoughts are this:
> I respect BS's origami method. It's clever.
> It gives a fair hull based on the constraints of the geometric method.
> But it's all about the method.
> BS doesn't like to talk about numbers. Why?
> He has none.
> He doesn't even know what the boat displaces until he is done shaping it.
> He sure as hell doesn't have a clue as to the basis hydrostatic paramaters.
> He doesn't like numbers.
> 
> Is this bad?
> No.
> The eye is the the final judge. Then the sea.
> But why ignore a very powereful tool in shaping your boats. Numbers can allow us to compare one hull to the next in an objective way. I always trust my eye. But, I do not ignore the numbers.
> 
> BS reacts very defensively when numbers come up. That should tell you something. He has no numbers. He can't even produce a 2D weight study. He gets very angry when you ask for one. It is an essential Yacht Design 101 component of design.
> 
> Would you like me to post a weight study? I'd be proud to do it. It's boring stuff but essential if you are going to be in control of the boat your are "designing".
> 
> How many weight studies do you want to see?
> The SLIVER project weight study woukld be a good, simple one to start with.
> 
> I am very proud of the fact that I do a thorough job of designing new boats. I want to look at my own work and say, ""Hey Bob, that is really good." You did it in a way that is recognized as good naval architecture by people who know naval architecture.
> 
> The results speak for themselves.


Back in the 80s, computers we have today were unavailable. I began by designing the hull shape in the traditional way, doing all the displacement calculations, prismatic coefficient, longitudinal centre of buoyancy, heeled centre of buoyancy , etc. etc. on a pocket calculator. I liked the dimensions of my Pipe Dream sloop , beam, deadrise, freeboard etc , but not the abysmal lack of hull balance and lack of directional stability, nor her deep V bows which pounded like hell while beating from Vanuatu to Fiji. So I stuck with the good points. The interesting thing about my 36 was ,when I first drew her up, while it can take many days to get things right, erasing and redrawing lines to get the numbers right , for the 36 they seemed to just drop into place. On the first drawing the LBC was right where I wanted it, 5.4 stations, as was the prismatic coefficient, .54 ,and the displacement. I rechecked it several times and it was right on. Ditto the hull balance, when heeled 25 degrees.

I then, carefully made a very accurate model, to take the plate shapes off. The model also gives you the option of double checking the LCB, by ballasting it till it floats on her lines, then balancing the model on a pencil. The balance point is your LCB. Weighing it, then multiplying the model's weight by the cube of the scale, gives you the weigh of the full sized boat ,floating on the same waterline. For a 1/12th scale, that means multiplying the weigh to the model by 1728 to get the weight of the finished hull. 
When Allan Farrel who has built many very successful boats by eye, over many decades, never calculating anything mathematically, made a model of his traditional junk 'China Cloud" again with no calculations, I took his model to a digital grocery store scale, and had it weighed. Mutiplying this weight by the cube of the scale, gave me 13,000 lbs which is what she weighed floating on her lines.
This backup is far harder to screw up on, and gives one a very fool proof double check of ones calculations. It also gives one a double check on aesthetics, which can be very different in 3D compared to what one sees on a drawing.
All my clients buy their own steel, by the pound ,so the weight of the steel is on their receipts. The calculations for the pipe Dream Sloop, a 36 is in the back of the book "Skenes Elements of Yacht Design, given at around 710 lbs. Interiors for most 36 footers needn't vary much from that , and if they go radically different , there is no predicting what it will be.
Variations in the amount of goodies different owners put aboard can be thousands of pounds. Do you calculate the weight of scuba gear, for one diver aboard, two divers, or a whole family of divers, in cold water with heavy weight belts, or warm water with no weight belts? Tools , very different, depending on ones degree of independence or profession.
Some people are packrats, some are Spartans. Some are land dwelling weekenders, some live aboard full time, and have no place ashore for storage. No two boats will have the same weight of stuff aboard. The differences are far greater than anything you can calculate or predict. The final analysis is how well the boats on average sail and their passage times. That is what boats are for, not just to make the numbers match.. Mine do well on all such criteria, which is all that matters in the long run. I go by feedback, from those who make long voyages in my boats, not by speculation from those with minimal or no offshore long term cruising experience, or who have never owned and maintained a steel boat for any length of time, and who just repeat disinformation from those trying to sell you something else.

In the early 80s, there was a Dutch designed steel boat in Maple Bay. The hull was 1/8th inch plate. They had turned the building of the interior over to carpenters, who lined the entire hull with 1 inch plywood, then covered that with 1 inch teak, then built a very heavy interior on that. Was it the designers fault hat she floated far below her designed waterline? I think not!


----------



## Brent Swain

jak3b said:


> Lots of steel boats have been built by amatures in less then ideal conditions.IMHO there are even some good looking ones with chines.The Wylo II comes to mind.Folded plate construction(Origami) has been around for a while.Its not "Brents" he didnt originate it.He did not originate DIY either.He didnt invent ocean cruising,sailing, welding, or anything else as far as I can tell.The claim that he "pulls a hull and deck together' really means he has only tack welded it together.Its far from a complete shell.There is still many hours of welding to go just to get a empty shell.You can save alot of money fabricating fittings,using discarded wood for an interior.But even cheap epoxy is expensive(Yogi Barra?).For my area just a space to build in is expensive as hell.Trevor Robertson built his wylo Iron Bark in 2 years.Hes sailed her 100,000+ miles including wintering over in Antartica and Greenland. This is and interview with him and Annie Hill.Annie Hill & Trevor Robertson - YouTube
> He seems like a nice guy.He probably wont insult your wife or belittle you for your choices.


Reducing the number of feet of chine weld from 400 feet to 28 feet definitely reduces welding time. Alex paid $20 a month for the farm yard he built in. My methods don't require a shop. Very few of my boats have been built inside.


----------



## Brent Swain

davidpm said:


> That is clever. Wouldn't have thought of that.
> 
> What do you use for bottom paint or the more accurately the whole bottom maintenance process.


Being a twin keeler ,with much of my time drying out , paint doesn't last long on my keel bottoms, and they have been bare 99% of the last 29 years. Not much sign of any corrosion or pitting. Zincs keep her in good shape, welded on for guaranteed contact. I use stainless bolts for temporary contact, with stainless weld around the bolt holes, to guarantee stainless to stainless contact, til I can get a tack on. Otherwise, a bit of rust on the strap can insulate the zinc from the hull, making it useless. I used epoxy tar when I launched in 84. On m first haulout, in 2,000, I gave her a coat of Wasser tar with copper ablative paint over it. Since then I have tried epoxy with epoxy cop antifouling paint, wet on wet, which seems to work much better than ablative paint, and you can scrub it any time. I hope to do the whole hull underwater that way, when full pension rolls in.


----------



## T37Chef

I thought BS got banned? LOL


----------



## Brent Swain

mark2gmtrans said:


> Smack,
> 
> I am pretty experienced at working in sheet metals, and I have gotten paid a lot of money to weld stuff that was x-rayed, pressure tested, and inspected very tightly, and I would not attempt to build a steel boat unless I was in a full service sheet metal shop with a plasma cutting table, a heavy steel break, roller, and all the rest of the stuff you would find in an industrial fabrication and machine shop.
> 
> I am fairly sure most wannabe cruisers do not have this, which as far as I can see is the only reason they would consider a BS design in the first place. I certainly would not build a blue water cruiser out of steel without using frames, because I would want to be able to isolate compartments using some of those frames, and I would want to have the rigidity that the frames would give not only my hull, but my deck and my cabin sole, plus that it would give a nice place to hang stuff that I wanted to mount, like conduit and plumbing.
> 
> certainly am among the few I know with the skills to do the job, though I am far out of practice, I have not forgotten, and I still do some welding and fabrication for a couple of charity organizations from time to time. Most people are not certified welders, do not have any skills in working sheet metal, and certainly do not have a shop with overhead cranes, welding machines, torches, plasma cutters, grinders, a brake, a roller, or a sheer and this stuff is expensive.
> 
> This little gem is $24,500.00 and you would need it to build a steel hull boat of any size or you would need to pay someone to use theirs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, if you have one of those and a press roller and all the other stuff in a nice big high ceiling shop, say 80 feet high, located directly on the waterfront please feel free to contact me, we might be able to build something.


 I worked for may years on a brake press in the 70's, at Mainland Foundry in Vancouver on a 180 ton Pearson hydraulic, along with plate rolls and section rolls, at Canron in Vancouver, on a 400 ton Pacific hydraulic and a Cincinatti 600 ton mechanical flywheel brake , and in Auckland at A&G Price on an 87 ton Dye hydraulic. I was considered very innovative as a brake operator, being asked to do jobs no one else could figure out. In all the boatbuilding I have done 38 hulls , I have only seen about 15 minutes worth of brake press use which would have been helpful, the edges of the forehatch and main hatch cover and the cockpit well, which we have had done for as little as $10. I have seen no use for any other kind of rolls in my boats. They could be useful on a power boat, with so many straight corners, but not on a sailboat, with almost all corners curved. 
Plasma is nice , but not worth the cost for a one off. For the last boat we found it too finicky, and it quit often, without reason, so we used the torch mostly. 
Inability to build a small steel sailboat without such expensive toys would take a total lack of imagination, or lack of ability to innovate.
Welds on a 36 footer simply don't break, no matter how badly they are done. I've never heard of it happening. The inertia of a 36 is simply not great enough. How does even the worst weld compare in strength to that of a copper fastening in red cedar every six inches, or six inches of plastic?
A kid I taught how to weld and build boats, went to welding school and got every ticked he needed. He said "Boy ,when it comes to embellishing their importance, welders are sure full of it."
Or as my next replacement says "You are not building a nuclear submarine."
You should s check out the origamiboats site, or my book or Alex's video to see how we have made overhead lifts redundant, by our building methods. Innovation does the trick.They would save maybe an hour or two at most, in building an origami boat.
80 ft overhead clearance would only be useful if you planed to put a 70 ft mast up in the shop. How often is that done?
I , Roberts, Dix, Tanton, Van de Stadt, Shannon and many others have designed very successful boats, without transverse frames, for decades, none of which have suffered any consequences for not having frames, and which has proven transverse frames irrelevant in a boat under 41 feet.
So would it be wise to believe the statements that we are all wrong, by someone who has never built or cruised extensively in a small steel sailboat?
This is the type of uninformed disinformation which needlessly discourages people from building their own small steel sailboats, and has them going to sea in boats which have far less chance of surviving a collision with Fukashima debris, sometimes resulting in boats going missing without a trace.


----------



## bobperry

By the amount of BS I'd say his fingers are well rested.


----------



## tdw

T37Chef said:


> I thought BS got banned? LOL


If we banned BS we'd lose all of Off Topic and probably half of On

Otoh ... Brent went for a short vacation.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> "Boy ,when it comes to embellishing their importance, welders are sure full of it."


You said it brother. That's why I bought a fiberglass boat!



Brent Swain said:


> This is the type of uninformed disinformation which needlessly discourages people from building their own small steel sailboats, and has them going to sea in boats which have far less chance of surviving a collision with Fukashima Debris, sometimes resulting in boats going missing without a trace.


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## bobperry

Little BS is back. Welcome back little guy.


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## aeventyr60

More lively discussions on the way. Was wondering why we did not have some thoughts on the bullet proofness of vinylester over polyester and plain epoxy?


----------



## bobperry

Here are some of Neil Rabinowitz's Photos from the SLIVER move. This boat has a steel keel fin and an elaborate steel floor system to support mast and keel loads so I think it belongs here. Besides it raises the aesthetic bar and this thread could use that. I'm off to Seattle tomorrow to see it at the new yard. And no, I am most certainly not going to shoot it.


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## smackdaddy

Make sure to swim and get some ice cream!


----------



## JomsViking

bobperry said:


> Here are some of Neil Rabinowitz's Photos from the SLIVER move. This boat has a steel keel fin and an elaborate steel floor system to support mast and keel loads so I think it belongs here. Besides it raises the aesthetic bar and this thread could use that. I'm off to Seattle tomorrow to see it at the new yard. And no, I am most certainly not going to shoot it.


Love it!

Please keep posting Pictures.

/Joms


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## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Here are some of Neil Rabinowitz's Photos from the SLIVER move. This boat has a steel keel fin and an elaborate steel floor system to support mast and keel loads so I think it belongs here. Besides it raises the aesthetic bar and this thread could use that. I'm off to Seattle tomorrow to see it at the new yard. And no, I am most certainly not going to shoot it.


Have you got another Swiftsure winner there Bob?

And PLEASE - tell us those steel floors are stainless, not coated mild steel. That's been done and it always seems to end badly, eventually.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

Brent Swain said:


> I worked for may years on a brake press in the 70's, at Mainland Foundry in Vancouver on a 180 ton Pearson hydraulic, along with plate rolls and section rolls, at Canron in Vancouver, on a 400 ton Pacific hydraulic and a Cincinatti 600 ton mechanical flywheel brake , and in Auckland at A&G Price on an 87 ton Dye hydraulic. I was considered very innovative as a brake operator, being asked to do jobs no one else could figure out. In all the boatbuilding I have done 38 hulls , I have only seen about 15 minutes worth of brake press use which would have been helpful, the edges of the forehatch and main hatch cover and the cockpit well, which we have had done for as little as $10. I have seen no use for any other kind of rolls in my boats. They could be useful on a power boat, with so many straight corners, but not on a sailboat, with almost all corners curved.
> Plasma is nice , but not worth the cost for a one off. For the last boat we found it too finicky, and it quit often, without reason, so we used the torch mostly.
> Inability to build a small steel sailboat without such expensive toys would take a total lack of imagination, or lack of ability to innovate.
> Welds on a 36 footer simply don't break, no matter how badly they are done. I've never heard of it happening. The inertia of a 36 is simply not great enough. How does even the worst weld compare in strength to that of a copper fastening in red cedar every six inches, or six inches of plastic?
> A kid I taught how to weld and build boats, went to welding school and got every ticked he needed. He said "Boy ,when it comes to embellishing their importance, welders are sure full of it."
> Or as my next replacement says "You are not building a nuclear submarine."
> You should s check out the origamiboats site, or my book or Alex's video to see how we have made overhead lifts redundant, by our building methods. Innovation does the trick.They would save maybe an hour or two at most, in building an origami boat.
> 80 ft overhead clearance would only be useful if you planed to put a 70 ft mast up in the shop. How often is that done?
> I , Roberts, Dix, Tanton, Van de Stadt, Shannon and many others have designed very successful boats, without transverse frames, for decades, none of which have suffered any consequences for not having frames, and which has proven transverse frames irrelevant in a boat under 41 feet.
> So would it be wise to believe the statements that we are all wrong, by someone who has never built or cruised extensively in a small steel sailboat?
> This is the type of uninformed disinformation which needlessly discourages people from building their own small steel sailboats, and has them going to sea in boats which have far less chance of surviving a collision with Fukashima debris, sometimes resulting in boats going missing without a trace.


Well you certainly think a lot of your opinions, as I do my own. I have personally been in charge of transportation for a LOT of steel that went to shipyards to be used in the building of ships. Funny thing BS, a lot of it was rolled, or had been bent with a press brake. It is a good way to get nice straight lines in steel, something I am sure you know. Now as to why I want the building to have such a nice high clearance, I want to be able to rig the vessel inside in order to have it all ready once I am ready to move it. I would not leave it on there, I just would like to be able to get every bit of the rigging done indoors, all the stuff fitted and done correctly, then take it all down and transport it. I kind of doubt that it would be a bad idea to be able to do it, an even better one would be to have the building be located where you could launch the boat mast and all right into the ocean by using a nice travelling crane to walk it out and set it gently into the water, fully rigged and ready to test the engines and sails.

If you used a brake or roller to make some of the bends and shapes you would be able to get a lot more out of the steel than if you did not. The fact that you are braking the material when you pull it together does not mean that a method of braking it was not used, because it is either rolled or has a brake in it anywhere it is not flat. Facts is facts, and since even you are not trying to sail a flat piece of steel it had to get bent some way, I just thought I would prefer to do it a little ahead of time, and not as I was trying to make the hull joints. In fact in light steel like the kind you use I would think the brake would give some rigidity, like if you broke the two halves at the keel seam up to a 90 degree angle to make a flange to weld together there, now maybe you are using angle iron or something like that welded at the keel seam, but I think that if you ran it through a brake, or even a roller brake and put a 4 inch high 90 degree flange along the seam it would be easier to weld, and would have a really good structural load point there.

Maybe I am wrong, but I know the material would be much stronger and you would have the added benefit of that flange, which you could have to the inside or the outside whichever one makes the most sense to give you a structural reinforcement right there along the keel seam. If it were facing to the inside you could drill through it to mount things like the mast step, the engine mounts, and the other loads. If it faced outward it would act as a mini keel from stem to stern and you would have a centerline that you could use to anchor the keel on the cross section as well as the welds or bolts that you use from the bottom to the hull. If you wanted to do things like that to the design then you could, but of course you like to have it built in someone's backyard, take ten years to do it, and then have the poor original owner have to sell it and let someone else come in to finish it.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
Trust me that every component of this design has been chosen for it's suitability with the build and purpose of this first class yacht. We are very comfortable in our choices.

As for the Swiftsure Race, thanks for saying that but my client does not want pulpits or lifelines so we would not qualify for the Swiftsure. We will have to contend ourselves sailing around the Sound beating up on anything we can find. I pushed for lifelines but lost that argument. I know the boat will look better without them but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## bobperry

It just gets beautifuller and beautifuller. I can't help it. I'm good. I have worked hard all my life to be good at this. When I make myself happy then I know I have hit a home run.


----------



## bljones

mark2gmtrans said:


> I have personally been in charge of transportation for a LOT of steel that went to shipyards to be used in the building of ships.


So, that qualifies you to discuss construction....how?
BS and i may disagree on many things but no one can deny that he has designs on the water, and has built a boat or two. Hydrodynamics and aesthetics and personality aside, he has been there and done that..
you, on the other hand?
watched a truck being loaded, apparently.


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> I sincerely apologise to Bobs wife, for involving someone who is not involved in any way. After Bobs very personal insults to me and my work, I guess I didn't see the part where he and others are allowed to insult anyone they please with impunity, and their targets are nor allowed to respond in kind. I had no business involving an inocent third party. If you go back you will find my responses are just that, responses to personal insults, first hurled at me.


As far as apologies go that one sucked.


----------



## copacabana

bobperry said:


> It just gets beautifuller and beautifuller. I can't help it. I'm good. I have worked hard all my life to be good at this. When I make myself happy then I know I have hit a home run.


Bob, you most certainly have the "eye"!!! Beautiful lines!


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## bobperry

Thanks Copa. It has been a very enjoyable project.


----------



## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> It just gets beautifuller and beautifuller. I can't help it. I'm good. I have worked hard all my life to be good at this. When I make myself happy then I know I have hit a home run.


There are woman and boats that need all kinds of war paint to look as good as they can, but there are the few-and-far-between whose beauty is so natural and compelling that there is no need to try to improve it with camouflage. Seeing every inch painted just plain white, emphasizes that this is one of those few-and-far-between. Nice work Bob.....


----------



## bobperry

Thanks Jeff. This project has stretched out for over two years. Most of that was due to the class structure at the school. In the end Kim hired four full time boatbuilders to keep working on the boat when the students had off time. So it's been a long wait to see this finished and I'm still waiting. Glad to see CSR on it immedately.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

bljones said:


> So, that qualifies you to discuss construction....how?
> BS and i may disagree on many things but no one can deny that he has designs on the water, and has built a boat or two. Hydrodynamics and aesthetics and personality aside, he has been there and done that..
> you, on the other hand?
> watched a truck being loaded, apparently.


I must bow to your majestic ship building and yacht building experience bljones. I will go now and worship all the vessels you have crafted.


----------



## bobperry

blj:
I think that was an unfair atttack on Mark. He obviously knows steel and working with steel. Everyone mucks in here and contributes what they can. Mark contributed to the discussion.


----------



## SloopJonB

chall03 said:


> As far as apologies go that one sucked.


More of an explanation or rationalization than an apology for sure.

Smack's corrected version of it was MUCH better.


----------



## bobperry

Somehow I missed Smacker's version of the apology. I agree with Jon. It's a "I only did it because you,,,," My kids used to try that. Didn't work then either.


----------



## SloopJonB

Do I detect a genetic or familial resemblance?


----------



## outbound

Regardless of "resemblances" it seems to have different lines and sure is a pretty boat. Bob please post videos of her underway when available.


----------



## copacabana

mark2gmtrans said:


> I must bow to your majestic ship building and yacht building experience bljones. I will go now and worship all the vessels you have crafted.


Mark, whether you agree with Brent's views or not (or like his boats for that matter), at least give the man some credit for knowing a thing or two about steel boat building. One of the things that drew me to his work was the ability for an amateur builder to get a fair hull (with nice compound curves and a short chine under the waterline) using simple techniques and tools. If you're interested in home-building in metal, it really is worth getting his book or checking out the video on origami building.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
I know that Garden boat but that was not one of the boats that Kim and I drew inspiration from. But you are correct. There is a resemblance. Especially when you would have us compare the stern of one boat with the bow of the other! That is the SLIVER's bow in that photo. I admit you have to look carefully to tell one end from the other. It was the standard shop floor joke.

Primarily the profile look of the SLIVER is straight from a L. Francis design. The sectional shape especially aft is my own. There is nothing unique about the forward sections or midsection. But aft it is different.

Out:
I think we are at least two months away from sea trials but be certain that there will be lots of photos taken.


----------



## jak3b

Which L. Francis design,just curious.


----------



## bobperry

jak:
Can't remember but I'm meeting with the owner this afternoon and I'l get that info for you.

Bob P.


----------



## Brent Swain

mark2gmtrans said:


> Well you certainly think a lot of your opinions, as I do my own. I have personally been in charge of transportation for a LOT of steel that went to shipyards to be used in the building of ships. Funny thing BS, a lot of it was rolled, or had been bent with a press brake. It is a good way to get nice straight lines in steel, something I am sure you know. Now as to why I want the building to have such a nice high clearance, I want to be able to rig the vessel inside in order to have it all ready once I am ready to move it. I would not leave it on there, I just would like to be able to get every bit of the rigging done indoors, all the stuff fitted and done correctly, then take it all down and transport it. I kind of doubt that it would be a bad idea to be able to do it, an even better one would be to have the building be located where you could launch the boat mast and all right into the ocean by using a nice travelling crane to walk it out and set it gently into the water, fully rigged and ready to test the engines and sails.
> 
> If you used a brake or roller to make some of the bends and shapes you would be able to get a lot more out of the steel than if you did not. The fact that you are braking the material when you pull it together does not mean that a method of braking it was not used, because it is either rolled or has a brake in it anywhere it is not flat. Facts is facts, and since even you are not trying to sail a flat piece of steel it had to get bent some way, I just thought I would prefer to do it a little ahead of time, and not as I was trying to make the hull joints. In fact in light steel like the kind you use I would think the brake would give some rigidity, like if you broke the two halves at the keel seam up to a 90 degree angle to make a flange to weld together there, now maybe you are using angle iron or something like that welded at the keel seam, but I think that if you ran it through a brake, or even a roller brake and put a 4 inch high 90 degree flange along the seam it would be easier to weld, and would have a really good structural load point there.
> 
> Maybe I am wrong, but I know the material would be much stronger and you would have the added benefit of that flange, which you could have to the inside or the outside whichever one makes the most sense to give you a structural reinforcement right there along the keel seam. If it were facing to the inside you could drill through it to mount things like the mast step, the engine mounts, and the other loads. If it faced outward it would act as a mini keel from stem to stern and you would have a centerline that you could use to anchor the keel on the cross section as well as the welds or bolts that you use from the bottom to the hull. If you wanted to do things like that to the design then you could, but of course you like to have it built in someone's backyard, take ten years to do it, and then have the poor original owner have to sell it and let someone else come in to finish it.


I think it is time you visited the origamiboats site and took a look at how we do things. It will show you that what you propose is irrelevant .The keel hull joint is 8 ft of 3/16th plate holding the side of any of the twin keels, around 1.8 million pounds tensile strength, times 4, so what would be relevance of what you suggest in a boat the weight of a 36 footer. I have built boats from Campbell River to San Francisco to Minnesota to Winnipeg. I don't think they would let me bring along the brake press and rolls you suggest as personal baggage on a plane.
It is the misinformation that one must have such expensive tools, which causes many a steel boatbuilder to go bankrupt and backyard projects to take far longer and more money than they ever need to. It would take hundreds of boats to justify them , no chance on a one off.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Wow TQ. That is definitely well documented!
> 
> The timeline sounds about right. What is ironic is this statement at the very beginning:
> 
> It ain't always as promised eh?
> 
> So do you want to build a steel boat for the next X years? Or do you want to sail?


I started my steel boat April 12th 84, launched her May 12th 84, had her sailing by mid October 84,. and moved aboard.The second 36 I build was started February 4th 82 launched april 15th 82 , went for her first sail, May 
24th 82 then headed for Mexico November the same year.
Takes a lot of focus , but can be done, and has been many times.


----------



## Brent Swain

jak3b said:


> Chronological age is sometimes misleading.When Brent went on the tuff guy MMA thing my guess would have been a 15 to 16 year old in serious need of getting laid.


That post was in response to Bob's use of Karate terms, an excellent example of style over substance, taken to extremes, eventually rendering something quite useless.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> By the amount of BS I'd say his fingers are well rested.


Said by someone with zero hands on steel boat building experience,and zero experience in cruising in and maintaining a steel boat for any length of time. Not a reliable source of any info on steel boats.
I believe he lives that "Land" life", where you borrow money to buy things you don't need, to impress people you don't like.

Further back, Bob made a comment about 'cheap boats vs good boats A good boat is one with good planning, based on many decades of cruising in and maintaining a similar type of boat, especially true of steel boats . Without that you can throw all the money in the world at a boat and it wont fit the definition . Steel is steel, gumwood is gumwood, epoxy is epoxy. Same stuff whether a cheap boat or expensive. Salvaged plywood which has been exposed for along time without delaminating is far more reliable than something out of a lumberyard which is untested. Older fir plywood was all fir, new stuff has alder cores. 
In many ways , how good a boat is has little to do with how much money one throws at it , and everything to do with the thinking which goes into her, and the experience that thinking is based on. Don't expect much of that from someone who has never built, cruised or owned a steel boat for any length of time.

In Rodger Mcaffe's book, the author says his father, a diesel mechanic told him that a rebuilt diesel is far more reliable than a new one. Casters have told me that there is no predicting or determining how good a casting is until it is put into use. I have seen new diesels having problems with castings in a short time.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Yves-Marie knows yacht design inside and out. He has the eye and he comprehends the numbers. I would not be the designer I am today without the year I spent working with Yves-Marie. He taught me precision in hand drafting.


Tanton is now designing in origami, realizing where the future if metal boats lies, rather than clinging the past, and its outdated building methods. Realizing the success of my 36, he has designed his own version in aluminium. Metal boatbuilding needs more open minded people like him, and fewer dinosaurs.


----------



## bobperry

Little BS:
I am not responsible for your responses. You are. That's the adult way.
Children blame other people for what they do. Adults take responsability for their own actions. You get caught in a technical corner where you have no answer and what do you do? You attack my wife? Brilliant.

jak:
The L. Francis design is the "the sailing machine" it has a canting keel! Only one boat waas built to this ndesign and it is in New Zeakand and called the FIERY CROSS. It does not have a canting keel. There have been some images of this boat posted on SA.

I just got back from a nice dinner in Seattle with the fam and a nic voiit to the SLIVER project. It's all primered now and tomorrow will be long boarded. It'll be as smooth as a baby's bottom in no time. In fact, I had a hard time seeing what needed to be faired but then I have never painted an entire hull so I'll just leave that to the pros as CSR. It sure looked fair to me.


----------



## Brent Swain

Just got back from sailing around Desolation sound . No crowds this year. Lots of wind, til lately. Good swimming. Good ice cream sources. Zero rain in 33 days. Not much internet over there. Didn't miss it, but realized how much time I was wasting here on this site.
Bob. I asked you how much steel boat cruising ,maintaining and building experience your "expertise" is based on and you attack me. Still no answer. Interpretation? 
ZERO!
I'm here for the summer, and into the fall.


----------



## jak3b

bobperry said:


> Little BS:
> I am not responsible for your responses. You are. That's the adult way.
> Children blame other people for what they do. Adults take responsability for their own actions. You get caught in a technical corner where you have no answer and what do you do? You attack my wife? Brilliant.
> 
> jak:
> The L. Francis design is the "the sailing machine" it has a canting keel! Only one boat waas built to this ndesign and it is in New Zeakand and called the FIERY CROSS. It does not have a canting keel. There have been some images of this boat posted on SA.
> 
> I just got back from a nice dinner in Seattle with the fam and a nic voiit to the SLIVER project. It's all primered now and tomorrow will be long boarded. It'll be as smooth as a baby's bottom in no time. In fact, I had a hard time seeing what needed to be faired but then I have never painted an entire hull so I'll just leave that to the pros as CSR. It sure looked fair to me.


Bob, Thanks. I thought it must have been 'The Sailing Machine'.Ive seen pictures of Fiery Cross. I believe she was built by Jim Young in the 60's.Gary Underwood in N.Z. had her for awhile. I cant wait to see Francis Lee sailing.Great work,Absolutley cool project.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I started my steel boat April 12th 84, launched her May 12th 84, had her sailing by mid October 84,. and moved aboard.The second 36 I build was started February 4th 82 launched april 15th 82 , went for her first sail, May
> 24th 82 then headed for Mexico November the same year.
> Takes a lot of focus , but can be done, and has been many times.


Brent, that's awesome. It really is very impressive.

But it has absolutely no bearing on what it will take a green boat building dreamer to get it done after they've bought your plans. You've already said you've worked with steel all your life. So, for your boats to make any sense for anyone, that person needs to have years of experience working with steel (and many other systems).

Your boats are not for the 99% - period. They are for the 1%.

Nothing wrong with that at all. It's just the way it is.


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## bobperry

Jak:
That's the boat. Amazing that canting keels go back that far. When you think you have something new,,,you don't.

Construction started this week on a 28'er based on one of my cartoons. The client is a return client. He built a cold molded (yes wood and he didn't die) 44'er I design and cruised Mexico for a couple of years. He is the consumate wood worker. He came to me with the idea of building the cartoon and I was quite dubious. It was never intended as a real boat. It was just a cartoon. But he insisted and greased the skids with the common denominator so how could I resist. I promise you I'll post the drawings soon. This may be one of my very best designs. It's a lifting keel, twin rudder,,,whatever based on this cartoon. I'm very lucky. With the three projects I have being built now and the two new design jobs I have I feel fortunate that in this economy I still get clients. And I can charge what I like and avoid the Value Village school of yacht design.

If you look at the cartoon of "ED" and laugh that's OK. I drew it to make people chuckle. But I do have the eye and John, my client, saw this cartoon and saw in it the boat to build next. I was quite surprised when I started to translate the cartoon into a real design that it actually worked. In fact the real design is a much better boat than the cartoon. My job can be a lot of fun sometimes.


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## jak3b

"If you look at the cartoon of "ED" and laugh that's OK. I drew it to make people chuckle. But I do have the eye and John, my client, saw this cartoon and saw in it the boat to build next. I was quite surprised when I started to translate the cartoon into a real design that it actually worked. In fact the real design is a much better boat than the cartoon. My job can be a lot of fun sometimes. "

Thats Great!.And isnt fun what this is all about?.There was another cartoon boat you drew I thought would be a cool 'real' boat. Ill see if I can find it.And hey, it sure beats the hell out of shooting boats and smashing rocks,... or was it the other way around.


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## jak3b

Here it is:

I love the stern and I could definatley see the profile.


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## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Jak:
> That's the boat. Amazing that canting keels go back that far. When you think you have something new,,,you don't.
> 
> Construction started this week on a 28'er based on one of my cartoons. The client is a return client. He built a cold molded (yes wood and he didn't die) 44'er I design and cruised Mexico for a couple of years. He is the consumate wood worker. He came to me with the idea of building the cartoon and I was quite dubious. It was never intended as a real boat. It was just a cartoon. But he insisted and greased the skids with the common denominator so how could I resist. I promise you I'll post the drawings soon. This may be one of my very best designs. It's a lifting keel, twin rudder,,,whatever based on this cartoon. I'm very lucky. With the three projects I have being built now and the two new design jobs I have I feel fortunate that in this economy I still get clients. And I can charge what I like and avoid the Value Village school of yacht design.
> 
> If you look at the cartoon of "ED" and laugh that's OK. I drew it to make people chuckle. But I do have the eye and John, my client, saw this cartoon and saw in it the boat to build next. I was quite surprised when I started to translate the cartoon into a real design that it actually worked. In fact the real design is a much better boat than the cartoon. My job can be a lot of fun sometimes.


It's great that one of your cartoons is going to get built. Ever since I first saw them I've wondered how cool and how much fun one would be in real life. As I said once before, they strike me as a perfect "boys boat".

Imagine being 14 and going out on Ed with one or two of your friends. 

Real Huck Finn stuff.


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## aeventyr60

bobperry said:


> Jak:
> That's the boat. Amazing that canting keels go back that far. When you think you have something new,,,you don't.
> 
> Construction started this week on a 28'er based on one of my cartoons. The client is a return client. He built a cold molded (yes wood and he didn't die) 44'er I design and cruised Mexico for a couple of years. He is the consumate wood worker. He came to me with the idea of building the cartoon and I was quite dubious. It was never intended as a real boat. It was just a cartoon. But he insisted and greased the skids with the common denominator so how could I resist. I promise you I'll post the drawings soon. This may be one of my very best designs. It's a lifting keel, twin rudder,,,whatever based on this cartoon. I'm very lucky. With the three projects I have being built now and the two new design jobs I have I feel fortunate that in this economy I still get clients. And I can charge what I like and avoid the Value Village school of yacht design.
> 
> If you look at the cartoon of "ED" and laugh that's OK. I drew it to make people chuckle. But I do have the eye and John, my client, saw this cartoon and saw in it the boat to build next. I was quite surprised when I started to translate the cartoon into a real design that it actually worked. In fact the real design is a much better boat than the cartoon. My job can be a lot of fun sometimes.


Looks like a west wight potter on steroids and perhaps a dose of magic mushrooms.


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## bobperry

Hey Bob, I took these pictures to send to you, a few of your pretty butt's. We are in La Cruz de Huanacaxtle, Mexico. We sailed down from Portland last Sept. You may not remember a few years ago @ Portland Yacht Club I had my Baba 30 there and we talked about my replacement of the wood spar with aluminum and Volvo with a Westerbeke. Anyhow I thought you'd enjoy our line up. The Valiant 40 is #7 and now I believe some where out of cyclone season after passing French Polynesia, and a Tayana 37. We also had with us on dock 9, a Baba 35 and Panda 40 as well as a couple Passport 40's and now I have an Islander 32 next to me. If you are so inclined we have a Blog I'd like to share with you. rainbowspinnaker | Sailing away with Nikk and Jan Fair Winds. Nikk & Jan sv Balance.

Yes, they are out there cruising. They sail grp production boats. They are not dieing and their boats are not falling apart. I certainly won't be the one to tell them that they can't do it and certainly not in those boats. I'm not going to tell them they are not having fun. That's for BS. I am humble and proud that these folks are cruising and enjoying my boats. And this is only one marina's crowd. I feel pretty satisfied. If my son were here I'd feel great!


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## jak3b

Its amazing they made it having to slolum through all the Fukashima debris;-).


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## Waltthesalt

It's important to get a competent surveyor, who's credible by a third party. Had a friend who bought a 50 ft. older steel power cruiser, manufactured by a very credible German yard. Upgraded by a wealthy owner. Looked great. Still they lost thier house, savings and more on hull repairs... ended up giving up on the project. Most surveyors survey what's accessible. Not good enough for steel. Got to get into the tanks and all hull areas. Putting a plate over a rusted hull section is only acceptable as an emergency repair as the corrosion continues underneath. Trust but verify.


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## outbound

Walt- I think you hit on the ultimate reason folks like me are scared by metal boats. We just don't have the background or expertise to judge a metal vessel. I don't know what a good survey of a metal boat really is so dependency on the unknown skill of the surveyor adds anxiety. I don't know how to judge if the surveyor ultrasounded the boat correctly etc.. Although the overwhelming majority of vessels on the water are steel, these commercial vessels are built with a service life in mind and have periodic inspections to ensure integrity. One doesn't know what has occurred with pleasure vessels. New construction in Alu for a specific cruise makes sense but used steel just scares me.


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## mark2gmtrans

Waltthesalt said:


> It's important to get a competent surveyor, who's credible by a third party. Had a friend who bought a 50 ft. older steel power cruiser, manufactured by a very credible German yard. Upgraded by a wealthy owner. Looked great. Still they lost thier house, savings and more on hull repairs... ended up giving up on the project. Most surveyors survey what's accessible. Not good enough for steel. Got to get into the tanks and all hull areas. Putting a plate over a rusted hull section is only acceptable as an emergency repair as the corrosion continues underneath. Trust but verify.


You are 100% correct in your assertion that there is no way to visually inspect a steel hull and certify it as to its integrity. When I had the oil field pipe business we had a machine that cost well over a million dollars that was one of the only ways to inspect steel pipe correctly. This machine is called an EMI and is basically an MRI for pipe, it uses several large magnetic coils to generate a field which can "see" through the pipe and detect microscopic defects and flaws in the pipe. This inspection is done on almost all oilfield casing and tubing, in an effort to prevent "blowouts" and reveals the flaws in the pipe. It does a great job, however there is not a good way to run an EMI on a hull, you cannot see the microfractures that come from stress on the material.

There are surveyors who use ultrasound to do hull inspections on steel boats. This is the only way to really get a good idea of the hull integrity, and it is costly. If you are purchasing a used mega-yacht the cost is not prohibitive, if you are purchasing a used sailboat under 40 feet it may be more than most would be willing to spend on a survey, and it takes up to two days to do it. There are not many people here in the states who can do an ultrasound hull survey, so that makes it even more fun.

The stress of an impact on the keel seam of a vessel weighing in at somewhere around 30,000 pounds is going to so far exceed the tensile strength of the material at the point of impact as to be able to cause incredible damage and still not be visible. The damage will be done at the molecular level, and this is something you cannot see or inspect on a survey, but it sure can come back to haunt you.

BS said that the steel he used had some huge million plus pound tensile strength, that is not true. I do not know how anyone can state that and even expect us to believe it, because there is not a single type of steel with a tensile strength that high. This is not an assumption, it is a fact.

If you use A36 steel, 3/16" thickness you have an estimated tensile strength of 36,000 pounds, that is what the 36 represents. Layering it to four layers does not increase the tensile strength at all, it does raise the amount of force needed to penetrate the hull, but not to 1,800,000 psi times four, as asserted by BS. I have no idea how BS came up with that number for tensile strength, but unless he can show me a metallurgical test for the specific hull plating used that gives a tensile strength of 1,800,000 psi I am going to have to say he has had a mathematical error somewhere in his calculations.

To start with 3/16" is too thin for a hull, especially at the keel, I would think that the keel would want to be done in about 3/4 inch steel plate, which is more like what BS is talking about with his four layers of 3/16 inch steel. The thing is that layering is good, but you still only get 36,000 psi you just get four layers of it. I have not done the math yet, but if you have a boat that weighs 36,000 pounds, which would not be at all out of line with a steel boat, I am guessing that when you factor in the speed and angle of the impact you get a good deal more than 36,000 psi, so the best thing to do with a steel hull remains the same as with any other hull....don't hit stuff. Now if Brent has some 1.8 million psi 3/16 inch steel somewhere he needs to start building pressure vessels and tanks with it, and maybe the military might like to have some too.

A36 is a standard low carbon steel, without advanced alloying.
As with most steels, A36 has a density of 7,800 kg/m3 (0.28 lb/cu in). Young's modulus for A36 steel is 200 GPa (29,000,000 psi).[2] A36 steel has a Poisson's ratio of 0.260, and a shear modulus of 79.3 GPa (11,500,000 psi).
A36 steel in plates, bars, and shapes with a thickness of less than 8 in (203 mm) has a minimum yield strength of 36,000 psi (250 MPa) and ultimate tensile strength of *58,000-80,000 psi *(400-550 MPa). Plates thicker than 8 in have a 32,000 psi (220 MPa) yield strength and the same ultimate tensile strength.[1]
A36 bars and shapes maintain their ultimate strength up to 650°F. Afterward, the minimum strength drops off from 58,000 psi: 54,000 psi at 700°F; 45,000 psi at 750°F; 37,000 psi at 800°F. A36 steel has low carbon, that produce high strength to the alloy

Tensile strength and shear strength are not the same thing, and not only that, an impact exerts both tensile (pulling) and shear (cutting or tearing) forces on the point of impact and combined they will poke a hole in your boat. The hardness of the object impacted, the speed of the impact, the weight of the impacting object, and the angle of the impact along with some other factors are what determine the ultimate force of the impact, but steel, wood, concrete, fiberglass or a combination of all the above will not be enough to stop a sea container that fell off a ship from knocking a great big gaping sink your boat hole in the hull of a sailboat if you hit it at the right angle. Sailing a boat is not something that can ever be made 100% safe, there are risks involved, but the rewards far outweigh the risks, if I die while sailing I will have died doing something I enjoyed. If I die while sailing on a steel boat or a wooden boat I will still be dead.


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## bobperry

Thanks Mark. That was very informative.

"he has had a mathematical error somewhere in his calculations."
BS and calculations? Surely you jest.


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## smackdaddy

mark2gmtrans said:


> I have no idea how BS came up with that number for tensile strength...


He already told us, silly. He balanced a scale model on a pencil while eating ice cream and standing on a grocery store scale. Add each of those up, carry the 3, and boom...1.8M Pounds of Fukushima Debris Crushing Fury!


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## bobperry

The Fred Flintstone school of yacht design.

I know it's done but even as a 15 year old kid I figured that balancing shapes on a, I used my triangular scale, was BS. It was just not precise. I use a calculus method with Simpson's multipliers. It takes a bit of time but the results are reliable


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## mark2gmtrans

bobperry said:


> Thanks Mark. That was very informative.
> 
> "he has had a mathematical error somewhere in his calculations."
> BS and calculations? Surely you jest.


You are quite welcome Bob. I also would like to say thanks to you for all the posts you give us here, the SLIVER is beautiful by the way. I am always grateful when those whose work is simply all around us take the time to talk and give us their insight.

Mark


----------



## mark2gmtrans

smackdaddy said:


> He already told us, silly. He balanced a scale model on a pencil while eating ice cream and standing on a grocery store scale. Add each of those up, carry the 3, and boom...1.8M Pounds of Fukushima Debris Crushing Fury!


Hey Smack, maybe we should take BS on one of his boats and go get us some Fukushima Debris Souvenirs and bring them back and sell them...

With all of that stuff out there we should at least be able to make enough to pay someone to help tutor BS with the math.


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## bobperry

Thanks Mark. I'm just doing what I can to have a good time. I'm going sailing on Wednesday on my buddies turbo F27. It's his birthday and we plan on racing around the Sound all day.


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## jak3b

mark2gmtrans said:


> Hey Smack, maybe we should take BS on one of his boats and go get us some Fukushima Debris Souvenirs and bring them back and sell them...
> 
> With all of that stuff out there we should at least be able to make enough to pay someone to help tutor BS with the math.


Only one problem,He'd have to be willing to learn something,Doesnt seem likely so far.I am waiting for one of those big Fukushima piers to wash up in Kelly's cove.I am a block and half away.Ill run down and claim it, refloat it and build a steel origami houseboat on it.


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## smackdaddy

jak3b said:


> Only one problem,He'd have to be willing to learn something,Doesnt seem likely so far.I am waiting for one of those big Fukushima piers to wash up in Kelly's cove.I am a block and half away.Ill run down and claim it, refloat it and build a steel origami houseboat on it.


Actually, just put a sail on the Fukushima Pier. It'll be at least as fast as an origami boat...and tougher too.


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## jak3b

smackdaddy said:


> Actually, just put a sail on the Fukushima Pier. It'll be at least as fast as an origami boat...and tougher too.


Ya but think of the tensile strength............


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## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> Actually, just put a sail on the Fukushima Pier. It'll be at least as fast as an origami boat...and tougher too.


How do you figure? Have you forgotten that they outrun the racing boats in San Diego!


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> The Fred Flintstone school of yacht design.
> 
> I know it's done but even as a 15 year old kid I figured that balancing shapes on a, I used my triangular scale, was BS. It was just not precise. I use a calculus method with Simpson's multipliers. It takes a bit of time but the results are reliable


Far more precise than your assumptions that you can predict what very different owners will put aboard, over decades of living aboard. That assumption is incredibly naïve. The variations in those numbers are far larger than any variations in balancing a curve of areas, model , etc. in fact huge. Herreshoff had a lot to say, none of it complementary, about the foolishness of mathematicians over the logic of practical people . He also had a good laugh about the irrelevance, and goofiness of Simpsons multipliers, over Hereshoffs own much simpler methods.
He well describes the motives of such advocates as "Exhibitionists."
Most experienced offshore cruisers come back saying "Keep it simple" not saying "Make it more complicated." 
A good example is the naïve mathematical calculations that one should put a plywood deck on a steel boat. The numbers look great , and the numbers wont tell you anything about the kind of maintenance nightmare it will result in. They wont tell you that plywood is impossible to properly insulate without introducing a high risk of dry rot, or that in cold weather the plywood will be covered in ice, inside. They wont tell you that deck hardware bolted down, instead of welded down, will leak, and pull loose a lot more, as the plywood swells and shrinks against metal, which wont, inevitably pulling any bedding compound apart.
As the hull deck joint takes most of the twisting load of the boat ,huge loads, responsible for so many hull- deck joint problems in fibreglass boats, bolts will inevitably work loose in the wettest part of the deck structure, drastically weakening it. It is the worst place on the boat for changing materials, something your calculations wont tell you. Only experience will do that.
Changing the transition to the inside edge of the deck, makes it far less structurally important, but still a bit wet, and prone to dry rot and leaks. Had leaks there in my cement boat , no fun.
As cabin sides are not all that heavy, especially when you cut ports in them, the top of the cabin side would be a far better place for any transition, something your math calculations wont tell you.
I replaced the plywood cabin top on a Colvin gazelle with aluminium, which was far lighter, and a material you could spray foam over and insulate properly, without fear of dry rot. Worked out well.
Don't expect those who believe their calculations can tell them everything they need to know about boats, with no real hands on practical experience, without living aboard in different climates, and cruising in their products over many decades, to comprehend such practical matters . Now that would be naïve!

Bob, a friend just bought one of your boats . Nice looking boat. Could you explain the logic in stanchions so short, that all they can hope to accomplish is to make sure you hit the water head first instead if feet first? If "yachtiness" prevails , they will have on high visibility yellow boots, to maker sure you can see their feet, when they are up to their necks in murky water.
How very yotty!


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## bobperry

Sabots, Lido 14's, El Toros, Optimists. Oh yeah, all the racing boats.


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## bobperry

BS:
I agree with you on that. I can't see anything but problems bolting a PW deck to steel.

But the difference is that L. Francis COULD do the math when he needed to. He just believed that the math had to be balanced with experience. I would certainly agree with that. Can't imagine I know any succesful designer who doesn't think that.

I have another question for you. I was never comfortable spraying fowm inside the shell. IIt scares me that I can never se that part of the shell again. I'd worry what was happening under the foam. Hoiw do you deal with that?


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> BS:
> I agree with you on that. I can't see anything but problems bolting a PW deck to steel.
> 
> But the difference is that L. Francis COULD do the math when he needed to. He just believed that the math had to be balanced with experience. I would certainly agree with that. Can't imagine I know any succesful designer who doesn't think that.
> 
> I have another question for you. I was never comfortable spraying fowm inside the shell. IIt scares me that I can never se that part of the shell again. I'd worry what was happening under the foam. Hoiw do you deal with that?


Many coats of epoxy tar or wasser tar. I once salvaged some galv pipe out of an old building. the side facing SE against the prevailing rainy weather was severely rusted; the side facing the NW and dry winds looked almost new. Inside a steel hull it doesn't take a lot to tip the balance, but given paint is cheap and you don't get a second chance, why not give it an overkill on thickness. Most of the boats built by Foulkes and Fehr have zero paint on the inside, and predictable results, with severe inside rusting. Any time you see rust on a flat surface on the outside of a steel boat, the paint was never thick enough. Moitessier makes this point in pointing out how many coats the French navy insists on before launching. Many! No such thing as too thick, the thicker the better. If you can still see the weld pattern ,it is not thick enough. Too thin a paint job is the main reason for steel boat owners having maintenance problems ( along with wood over steel on the outside).
On older boats, you can tell how well the foam has stuck to the steel, and any other problems under the foam, by dragging your fingernails over it. Where it has separated from the steel, you can hear a distinct hollow sound. That is where you should dig it out and have a look. If you see smooth ,clean epoxy, the rest is probably the same.

I use Hereshoff's methods of calculation, with models as double checks. The results, decades of successful boats, with some owners on their third, as testimony.


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## jak3b

Rueters:August 5th 2013,Dubai UAE
Nigel Irens announces his next record breaking trimaran will be built of steel according to the origami method. A stunned Francis Joyan remarked "I thought we were doing ok with IDEC,I am not sure about this new direction".When asked by reporters if steel was the right choice Irens errupted " Its just better! %$#%^#& dis informers and there ^&%*$$ idiotic campaigns against forward thinking building methods."Ive been wrong all along" he shouted."Carbon, kevlar,E-glass,its all garbage".Irens then started banging his head on the podium screaming steel!,steel, STEEL! before leaping bodily into the crowd of reporters.He was taking to a near by hospital for observation.


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## bobperry

Models? Really. I have 60 of them in my office. I have models coming out my ears. If you look closely over the left should of Erica, holding Bram, you can see the walls of the head are also covered in models. I like them.


----------



## Brent Swain

mark2gmtrans said:


> You are 100% correct in your assertion that there is no way to visually inspect a steel hull and certify it as to its integrity. When I had the oil field pipe business we had a machine that cost well over a million dollars that was one of the only ways to inspect steel pipe correctly. This machine is called an EMI and is basically an MRI for pipe, it uses several large magnetic coils to generate a field which can "see" through the pipe and detect microscopic defects and flaws in the pipe. This inspection is done on almost all oilfield casing and tubing, in an effort to prevent "blowouts" and reveals the flaws in the pipe. It does a great job, however there is not a good way to run an EMI on a hull, you cannot see the microfractures that come from stress on the material.
> 
> There are surveyors who use ultrasound to do hull inspections on steel boats. This is the only way to really get a good idea of the hull integrity, and it is costly. If you are purchasing a used mega-yacht the cost is not prohibitive, if you are purchasing a used sailboat under 40 feet it may be more than most would be willing to spend on a survey, and it takes up to two days to do it. There are not many people here in the states who can do an ultrasound hull survey, so that makes it even more fun.
> 
> The stress of an impact on the keel seam of a vessel weighing in at somewhere around 30,000 pounds is going to so far exceed the tensile strength of the material at the point of impact as to be able to cause incredible damage and still not be visible. The damage will be done at the molecular level, and this is something you cannot see or inspect on a survey, but it sure can come back to haunt you.
> 
> BS said that the steel he used had some huge million plus pound tensile strength, that is not true. I do not know how anyone can state that and even expect us to believe it, because there is not a single type of steel with a tensile strength that high. This is not an assumption, it is a fact.
> 
> If you use A36 steel, 3/16" thickness you have an estimated tensile strength of 36,000 pounds, that is what the 36 represents. Layering it to four layers does not increase the tensile strength at all, it does raise the amount of force needed to penetrate the hull, but not to 1,800,000 psi times four, as asserted by BS. I have no idea how BS came up with that number for tensile strength, but unless he can show me a metallurgical test for the specific hull plating used that gives a tensile strength of 1,800,000 psi I am going to have to say he has had a mathematical error somewhere in his calculations.
> 
> To start with 3/16" is too thin for a hull, especially at the keel, I would think that the keel would want to be done in about 3/4 inch steel plate, which is more like what BS is talking about with his four layers of 3/16 inch steel. The thing is that layering is good, but you still only get 36,000 psi you just get four layers of it. I have not done the math yet, but if you have a boat that weighs 36,000 pounds, which would not be at all out of line with a steel boat, I am guessing that when you factor in the speed and angle of the impact you get a good deal more than 36,000 psi, so the best thing to do with a steel hull remains the same as with any other hull....don't hit stuff. Now if Brent has some 1.8 million psi 3/16 inch steel somewhere he needs to start building pressure vessels and tanks with it, and maybe the military might like to have some too.
> 
> A36 is a standard low carbon steel, without advanced alloying.
> As with most steels, A36 has a density of 7,800 kg/m3 (0.28 lb/cu in). Young's modulus for A36 steel is 200 GPa (29,000,000 psi).[2] A36 steel has a Poisson's ratio of 0.260, and a shear modulus of 79.3 GPa (11,500,000 psi).
> A36 steel in plates, bars, and shapes with a thickness of less than 8 in (203 mm) has a minimum yield strength of 36,000 psi (250 MPa) and ultimate tensile strength of *58,000-80,000 psi *(400-550 MPa). Plates thicker than 8 in have a 32,000 psi (220 MPa) yield strength and the same ultimate tensile strength.[1]
> A36 bars and shapes maintain their ultimate strength up to 650°F. Afterward, the minimum strength drops off from 58,000 psi: 54,000 psi at 700°F; 45,000 psi at 750°F; 37,000 psi at 800°F. A36 steel has low carbon, that produce high strength to the alloy
> 
> Tensile strength and shear strength are not the same thing, and not only that, an impact exerts both tensile (pulling) and shear (cutting or tearing) forces on the point of impact and combined they will poke a hole in your boat. The hardness of the object impacted, the speed of the impact, the weight of the impacting object, and the angle of the impact along with some other factors are what determine the ultimate force of the impact, but steel, wood, concrete, fiberglass or a combination of all the above will not be enough to stop a sea container that fell off a ship from knocking a great big gaping sink your boat hole in the hull of a sailboat if you hit it at the right angle. Sailing a boat is not something that can ever be made 100% safe, there are risks involved, but the rewards far outweigh the risks, if I die while sailing I will have died doing something I enjoyed. If I die while sailing on a steel boat or a wooden boat I will still be dead.


Mild steel is 60,000 PSI tensile and compression strength . That is 11250 per linear inch for 3/16th plate. Multiply that by the 96 inches in the side of one of my twin keels. That is 1.08 million pounds per side, times four keels sides.
How are you going to break that with a boat under 20,000 lbs?
Just saw two navy 100 footers in Heroit bay. 3/16th hull plate on 100 ft navy ships . And you say the same plate thickness is too light for a 36 foot pleasure boat? You say that a boat which could survive 16 days pounding in 8 to 12 ft surf on the west coast of the Baja, or pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf, or colliding with a freighter, or hitting the sharp corner of a sunken barge at hull speed, all with minimal damage, is not strong enough? Now that's a stretch!
My hulls are all single thickness, 1/8th for the decks cabin, etc, 3/16th for the hull ,1/4 for the keel sides, and half inch for the keel bottom ( with 4500 lbs of lead ballast poured on top) 
Layering steel is a big mistake, guaranteeing corrosion between the layers unless totally sealed.

A good whack with a sledge hammer and a centre punch on lower parts of keels, etc, where corrosion is most likely, is a good starting point on buying a steel boat. If it doesn't give, you have enough thickness there.
Structural failures of steel boats under 40 feet are extremely rare. Your "Invisible " fractures have zero chance of ever causing any problems in steel boats under 40 feet in their lifetimes.
How does such "invisibly fractured" steel compare in strength to a copper fastening in red cedar every six inches, or six inches of plastic?


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Brent, that's awesome. It really is very impressive.
> 
> But it has absolutely no bearing on what it will take a green boat building dreamer to get it done after they've bought your plans. You've already said you've worked with steel all your life. So, for your boats to make any sense for anyone, that person needs to have years of experience working with steel (and many other systems).
> 
> Your boats are not for the 99% - period. They are for the 1%.
> 
> Nothing wrong with that at all. It's just the way it is.


The green, first time boatbuilder will get sailing a lot faster using my methods, than he ever will using any other methods, for a fraction the cost. That has been well proven, time and time again.
I have never built a boat for anyone in the top 1% of income earners, but have built most for people in the bottom end of the income scale, people who could never have afforded a good steel boat any other way.


----------



## bobperry

Thanks for the foam coating and paint info BS. I'm still a bit dubious as I can't see running my fingernail over the entire inside of the coated hull. But I get your drift. How much experience have you had with the foam separating from the inside of the shell? Is it common? Uncommon?

You don't have to worry about me using this info to compete with you. I'm just curious and I like to learn. I am convinced we will never compete for the same client. I have zero against steel boats. It' just not a material I chose to work with at this point. But my clients don' ask for steel boats and they most assuredly do not even remotely consider building at home.

Case in point:
See that photo of my office with Erica, holding Bram? If you look behind the lovely Erica you will see a yellow model standing on end. That was one of two tank test models we built to test a 42' powerboat design of mine. Each model cost $9,000. Cost of two days of tank testing was about $30,000 not counting my considerable time. We do not fish for the same same fish. Tank testing is a blast; grown men playing with model boats hooked up to computers. You would be uncomfortable Brent. There's lost of numbers involved. You can learn a lot by watching and have long print outs to verify what you see. Secretly I would bet a bottle of Glenmorangie that you would get a kick out of tank testing. Hell, I'd bet three bottles.

You know BS, in that repsonse to Mark I think you had better take another look at your math. You are getting a little creative.


----------



## bubb2

Brent Swain said:


> Bob, a friend just bought one of your boats .


Even your friends don't build your boats. That's got to hurt.:laugher


----------



## jak3b

Your dreaming, the bottom end of the scale income earners are not even going on boats at all unless its a ferry boat*to get to work.They are paying all there income and money they dont have just to cover the basics.There is nothing left over.To have disposable income you would have to be in the middle to upper income range.Granted I live in one of the most expensive places in the US.It would cost $50-60k a year here for basics and very little in the way of entertainment.This trend is happening in alot of urban areas all over the US.I dont have a wife or kids,I could pull it off if I totaly scrimped and scraped but I am not interested anymore.Id rather live now.I can get an existing,well built good boat for a fraction of the cost.Ive been offered 2 free boats in the last year.A cheoy Lee and a pacific 30,For far less then my own labor sweat equity cost to fix these boats up I could get a nice boat that I could sail today.If was 25, I might build my own but I am 51,time is shorter, Priorities change.


----------



## bobperry

jak:
So you're 51 years old. You are a kid!
HTFU!

I'm 67. My time is even shorter.
So little time, so much music to listen to. Just got my replacement copy,vinyl, of the new Jackson Browne album today, TIME THE CONQUEROR. First one was a bit rough so they replaced it.


----------



## outbound

Like it when he does blues.


----------



## jak3b

bobperry said:


> jak:
> So you're 51 years old. You are a kid!
> HTFU!
> 
> I'm 67. My time is even shorter.
> So little time, so much music to listen to. Just got my replacement copy,vinyl, of the new Jackson Browne album today, TIME THE CONQUEROR. First one was a bit rough so they replaced it.


Ha!, Thanks Bob.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> The green, first time boatbuilder will get sailing a lot faster using my methods, than he ever will using any other methods, for a fraction the cost. That has been well proven, time and time again.
> I have never built a boat for anyone in the top 1% of income earners, *but have built most for people in the bottom end of the income scale, people who could never have afforded a good steel boat any other way.*


So basically you take a much, much higher percentage of your clients' total hard-earned life savings than Bob Perry ever has from ANY of his clients?

How could you possibly screw the poor like that, Brent Swain? You should be ashamed.


----------



## blt2ski

if jak is 51, I am 51, together we are 102.....so we have out done BP together......does that count?

oh, and Bob only has three yrs untill he is an old pfart! 13 until a REALLY old phart, and 23 until the "depends" yrs, ie does he need them or not!


----------



## jak3b

All seriousness aside,There was more surf pounding and reef smashing in Brents post today.His boats might be an enviromental hazard like dynamite fishing.


----------



## bobperry

Hey come on Smacks!
I'm trying to take more. I want to take more. I have needs. But my clients are very smart guys and while often very generous they are not stupid.

Do you know that there is a cartridge for your turntable that cost $10,000? The cartridge is the little engine that holds the cantilever that old the sylus. Truth be told there are several that cost in that range.

I want that cartridge.


----------



## SloopJonB

*Nobody* has ears that good.

Especially anybody who could afford one of those things. 

When I was younger I could hear dog whistles (true - they sound like rushing wind) and I never heard anything that my Stanton 681 EEE could not reproduce - for about $300 in old money (1970's).

Of course now that I can't hear as high as the high filter on my old Marantz, it's all moot.


----------



## jak3b

My ears are damaged from playing in very loud bands in my youth.Crash cymbals next to my right ear.Then I took a trip on the Mekong river in Laos.Sitting next to a Toyota 4 cylinder engine with no muffeler, just a tin horn attached to the manifold, going full bore for almost 10 hours.That hurt.Then years of routers and power tools didnt help. I have tinitus pretty bad in my right ear.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
I like to think I have ears that good. I can hear my dogs fart.
I have a fabulous cartridge now an Immedia Scala. You can Google it. I'd be a bit embarrassed to say what it cost. But I'm getting old. I look for my pleasures where I can find them, Well reproduced music is a passion of mine.

I think now I will go down and Play my new Jackson Browne lp.
I need to wait up for my evil cat. Pumpkin the killer.

Smackers:
You have two boys. I know it's very hard to think that you are "lucky". I know. But look at this pic and imagine what the future may hold for you. How can I look at Violet and not think that I am lucky?


----------



## blt2ski

I'm beyond the tinitus stage! I'm into full bore HA's from driving lawn mower, weed eater, chain saws. speaker in my dumptruck next to my ear. drivers window down due to no AC, have typical left ear truckers ear due to that. Had an old skid steer, I could wear muffs and ear plugs and after 4-5 hrs on that thing my ears would be ringing......

Joys of having $5g in and around ones ears to try and hear, and even then one can not hear! High pitch sounds? all they do is hurt my head literally! major bang bang from one side of the head to the other, thats how bad my ears are.

Marty


----------



## jak3b

'Pumpkin the killer' , Somehow that doesnt sound right ;-)


----------



## jak3b

Watch out Pumpkin!


----------



## bobperry

Trust me jak. She's the feral cat we found three years ago and she is still a killer. She is one of the most sensitive and loving pets I have ever had the pleasure of sharing my house with. But she's a killer.

Marty:
Come on down to the shack and I will restore your ears in one weekend. I'll feed you well too. I drink you well too. Just pick a wekend.


----------



## blt2ski

Bob, For me that would be up. If I went down to see you, I would have to go to oz, then thru the south pole, up the other side to the north pole, and back down to you. Knowing my luck, in Oz I would have to pickup some funky marsupial we know to get me back here. THAT in and of itself would be a scary issue! If I got lost to the east, then smackers would probably fall instep......talk about a scarier issue! smackers and TD in the same place and time! oh dear oh me oh my!

WOuld be better to go up, then it is only 17 miles, not sure who is between here and there.......tenuki, possibly Dodenja.........

Marty


----------



## bobperry

Anytime Marty. I'm here almost all the time. Going sailing tomorrow.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Smackers:
> You have two boys. I know it's very hard to think that you are "lucky". I know. But look at this pic and imagine what the future may hold for you. How can I look at Violet and not think that I am lucky?


Wow. Bob, she is absolutely a little slice of heaven.

I am lucky. Focusing on that keeps me out of that "pit" that's always there. I've had a crappy few days. Then, this morning, I remembered how much I am in love with my boys...how happy they make me. The weight lifted immediately.

You're right...you and I...we're lucky.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

Brent Swain said:


> Mild steel is 60,000 PSI tensile and compression strength . That is 11250 per linear inch for 3/16th plate. Multiply that by the 96 inches in the side of one of my twin keels. That is 1.08 million pounds per side, times four keels sides.
> How are you going to break that with a boat under 20,000 lbs?
> Just saw two navy 100 footers in Heroit bay. 3/16th hull plate on 100 ft navy ships . And you say the same plate thickness is too light for a 36 foot pleasure boat? You say that a boat which could survive 16 days pounding in 8 to 12 ft surf on the west coast of the Baja, or pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf, or colliding with a freighter, or hitting the sharp corner of a sunken barge at hull speed, all with minimal damage, is not strong enough? Now that's a stretch!
> My hulls are all single thickness, 1/8th for the decks cabin, etc, 3/16th for the hull ,1/4 for the keel sides, and half inch for the keel bottom ( with 4500 lbs of lead ballast poured on top)
> Layering steel is a big mistake, guaranteeing corrosion between the layers unless totally sealed.
> 
> A good whack with a sledge hammer and a centre punch on lower parts of keels, etc, where corrosion is most likely, is a good starting point on buying a steel boat. If it doesn't give, you have enough thickness there.
> Structural failures of steel boats under 40 feet are extremely rare. Your "Invisible " fractures have zero chance of ever causing any problems in steel boats under 40 feet in their lifetimes.
> How does such "invisibly fractured" steel compare in strength to a copper fastening in red cedar every six inches, or six inches of plastic?


Brent, I hate to tell you but your math is extremely flawed. PSI is pounds per square inch, not linear inch. A36 mild steel, and that is the most common, is 36,000 PSI, linear inches could be twenty miles and it would still be a minimum of 36,000 and a maximum of 80,000 PSI in every single inch of it. The 80K PSI is not likely to happen, it would rarely test out at over 46K PSI and even that would vary greatly from one square inch to the next.

How do you calculate the hull stress loads for your vessels? What are the machinery and static loads that you figure in when you are making your calculations? What is the wave moment that you use for calculations on maximum stress loads? What wave heights? How do you calculate the stiffeners needed in the keel, hull, and deck plating loads? How do you do the hogging and sagging stress calculations on your vessels? Do you understand that your vessels, even at 30' do undergo these stress loads and that the Dynamic Amplification Factor on the steel is not just longitudinal, but it is also a shear load, a buckling load, a bending load and an impact load, even when your hull and keel are not hitting a reef somewhere?

I have an updated copy of a little workbook that you will enjoy here, if the math is too tough on you please consider a tutor, because as a ship designer this little bit of math is a bit important.

http://www.usna.edu/Users/naome/phmiller/en358/358CourseNotesSpring2009.pdf

The rest of the guys will probably find it a good refresher on some math, and very informative. Especially on page 67 where we find this little paragraph. I think it might be an excellent thing if some people might read this and withdraw claims of absolutely no structural damage having been done to vessel which grind themselves on reefs like strippers on a pole.

Code of Ethics for Engineers
(from National Society of Professional Engineers) 
Engineers, in the fulfillment of their professional duties, shall: 
1. Hold paramount the safety, health and welfare of the public. 
2. Perform services only in areas of their competence. 
3. Issue public statements only in an objective and truthful manner. 
4. Act for each employer or client as faithful agents or trustees. 
5. Avoid deceptive acts. 
6. Conduct themselves honorably, responsibly, ethically, and lawfully so as to enhance the honor, 
reputation, and usefulness of the profession.


----------



## jak3b

"It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition and a psychological understanding of the people concerned that a square is in fact a circle. They are mere words, and words can be molded until they clothe ideas and disguise."
― Joseph Goebbels

Fijian reef, Baha beach Fijian reef, Baha beach,beach,smash, bang,boom,tensile, smensile. Brent sales technique 101.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

bobperry said:


> Jon:
> I like to think I have ears that good. I can hear my dogs fart.
> 
> lucky?


Sorry Bob, I could not resist it... I usually blame the dog too. :laugher


----------



## bobperry

Mark:
"Brent, I hate to tell you but your math is extremely flawed."

Yeah but,,,you have to give him a B- for creativity.
While his math was wrong I found it entertaining.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

bobperry said:


> Mark:
> "Brent, I hate to tell you but your math is extremely flawed."
> 
> Yeah but,,,you have to give him a B- for creativity.
> While his math was wrong I found it entertaining.


Hmm, none of my professors in any of my math classes would give me grades for creativity, well not good ones LOL. I will admit that his idea of how to multiply the length times the whatever and come up with the something times the square root of the thingy was just about the best example of the old saying "If you cannot dazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with your BS" I have ever seen.


----------



## outbound

Bob- two evenings ago was sitting on my boat after wonderful daysail and a lovely dinner listening to BB and Eric singing and playing duets through a Boston acoustic system with a killer woofer watching a delightful 4y.o. dancing with my bride. The Henricks was pretty good as well.We're trying to brake him slowly as crew. Hopefully, he will be able to set the pole. Think even with gimbals no way to put an analogue system on the boat. Oh well.


----------



## smackdaddy

So, wait, if I add up the lineal inches for every Brent boat that's ever been built, isn't that, like, in the _billions_?

Dang. Those _are_ some strong boats.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Mark:
> "Brent, I hate to tell you but your math is extremely flawed."
> 
> Yeah but,,,you have to give him a B- for creativity.
> While his math was wrong I found it entertaining.


Some P.C. elementary teachers refer to a kid who can't spell as a "creative speller".

Wrong is wrong - period.


----------



## Jeff_H

Mark,

I'm not sure that Brent's math is as wrong as you may be suggesting. My assumption is that Brent is using something like an A572 which is a high-strength low alloy steel which has better corrosion properties and more strength than A36 which you mentioned, and which has a tensile yield strength in the 60,000 psi range.

Brent said,"That is 11,250 lbs per linear inch for 3/16th plate. Multiply that by the 96 inches in the side of one of my twin keels." And in that regard, something like A572-60 that was 3/16 thick would have a tensile yield strength around 11,250 lbs per linear inch. (60,000*3/16= 11,250) His arithmetic is essentually correct.

The problem is one of how the is applying that math relative to proper engineering principles contained in Brent's metaphoric description of: 
_"That is 1.08 million pounds per side, times four keels sides.
How are you going to break that with a boat under 20,000 lbs?" _

This metaphor assumes that the loads are shared by both keels equally and that the loads are solely in tension. Neither is likely to be present or likely to relate to the actual failure mode of the keel.

The more probable failure modes for a frameless keel connection would more likely be some mix of buckling of the keel sides in compression (skinny column failure), sheer where the keel sides try to cut through the hull plate (as you noted in your comments), or bending of the hull skin perhaps coupled with lamellar tearing near where the hull meets the keel since the hull plate would be in bending due to the large lever arm formed by the depth of the keel and the narrower width of the keel root being resisted in bending by comparably thin plate.

But beyond that I also want to touch on Brent's Herreshoff reference.

I am not sure that its clear which Herreshoff Brent is referring to, but by and large all of the Herreshoffs were consumate engineers. Nat Herreshoff and Herreshoff Manufacturing developed their own formulas for many of the calculations involved in properly engineering a boat. At a time when boats were 'engineered' by rules of thumb, Nat did his own scientific research and developed his own formulas based on his research. And he used these formulas to design some of the most sohisticatedly engineered designs in that era. He later boiled those down into his own set of widely used rules of thumb, but these were heavily based on proper engineering based methodologies.

L. Francis began his carreer working with Nat as a designer at Herreshoff Manufacturing but did the majority of his apprenticeship working beside Starling Burgess and Frank Payne at Burgess, Swasey & Paine in Boston. Burgess was one of the most creative, multi-discipline, engineering-oriented designer/ inventors of his day. Burgess was a brilliant mathematician who was able to do high level scientific research, then develop mathematic equations to explain the observations and ultimately literally wrote the book on a wide range of early 20th aeronautical engineering applications.

In yacht design, Burgess literally developed sophisticated formulas that replaced the crude rules of thumb which preceeded his time. Starling Burgess working with Glenn Curtiss was key to the design of the first successful seaplane (only a few years after the Wright Bros first flight), he designed three America's Cup winning defenders, he designed the first successful aluminum masts, he designed many of Buckminster Fuller's so called Dymaxion inventions (car and house being most notable), (and designed 'Little Dipper' for Bucky, one of the most beautiful little cutters of all time), as a kid in the late 1800's he designed one of the first light weight machine guns, he also is thought to have possibly/probably designed the Times New Roman font, wrote poetry, and novels, and produced world class paintings.

And L. Francis learned his trade at Starling's side and along side of Frank Payne as well. And Frank Payne was no slouch either when it came to sophisticated engineering. There was nothing even slightly shoddy about L. Francis's math or engineering skills.

But of all the Herreshoffs', L. Francis would be the only one that I could imagine who might write negative comments about using engineering formulas. I can imagine that since L. Francis was known for writing things that he thought sounded good and doing just the opposite. (Like advising adult sailors that they had an obligation to take children sailing and teach them the ways of the sea, when L. Francis notoriously hated kids and hated being around them.) So, if L. Francis was dismissive of the crude formulae of the day, it was only because he and his close life long friends, Starling and Frank, were beyond the quick and dirty engineering methods that he decried.

Sidney Dewolf Herreshoff was a graduate from MIT in engineering. 'nuf said. He used the numbers. Halsey Herrshoff has an undergraduate degree from Webb Instutute and a masters from MIT, I have to figure that he uses the numbers as well.

Please, lets try to keep the historic references close to what is actually known about these people.

Jeff


----------



## jak3b

In an odd way some of Brents rants remind me of some of L. Francis's articles.If L. Francis had flipped his gull wing benz and suffered a traumatic brain injury.


----------



## bobperry

Jeff:
I'm just jealous that you got to hang with those old guys. It must have been amazing. How old are you? 244? You don't look a day over 67.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

Brent Swain said:


> Mild steel is 60,000 PSI tensile and compression strength . That is 11250 per linear inch for 3/16th plate. Multiply that by the 96 inches in the side of one of my twin keels. That is 1.08 million pounds per side, times four keels sides.
> How are you going to break that with a boat under 20,000 lbs?
> Just saw two navy 100 footers in Heroit bay. 3/16th hull plate on 100 ft navy ships . And you say the same plate thickness is too light for a 36 foot pleasure boat? You say that a boat which could survive 16 days pounding in 8 to 12 ft surf on the west coast of the Baja, or pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf, or colliding with a freighter, or hitting the sharp corner of a sunken barge at hull speed, all with minimal damage, is not strong enough? Now that's a stretch!
> My hulls are all single thickness, 1/8th for the decks cabin, etc, 3/16th for the hull ,1/4 for the keel sides, and half inch for the keel bottom ( with 4500 lbs of lead ballast poured on top)
> Layering steel is a big mistake, guaranteeing corrosion between the layers unless totally sealed.
> 
> A good whack with a sledge hammer and a centre punch on lower parts of keels, etc, where corrosion is most likely, is a good starting point on buying a steel boat. If it doesn't give, you have enough thickness there.
> Structural failures of steel boats under 40 feet are extremely rare. Your "Invisible " fractures have zero chance of ever causing any problems in steel boats under 40 feet in their lifetimes.
> How does such "invisibly fractured" steel compare in strength to a copper fastening in red cedar every six inches, or six inches of plastic?


Okay, let's address the math here....

First we need know that to figure the force of the impact, we are going to have to calculate the Impulse of Force, which is the force of the impact in PSI in this case over the period (length of time) of the impact. In order to know the force we have to know the weight, the speed and the size of the impact point, and to get the Impulse on that we need to know the duration.

From there it is a simple little calculus problem, and we can get it all done in just a few minutes. So, we figure that the length of one of Brent's keels is about 60 inches long by 6 inches wide at the point of contact. ( I tried to look up some of Brent's designs on sailboatdata.com like I do with Bob's or Roger Long's but I found this photo, and I am just kind of guessing on the actual length, at the end of the story it won't matter.

So we have a weight (per Brent) of 20,000 lbs
A hull impact area of 360 square inches maximum.
We will designate a forward hull speed of 10 knots which is 26.465 per sec
A downward force of 954417 N on the keel, and that is not a full calculation, but there are too few here who would understand the math to make it worth the effort.

So that translates to 214561.47 PSI

Score Fukushima Debris Field 1 BS hull Zero

In other words a full on 10 knot collision would poke a hole in your boat, and that force is the force that would occur along the entire 360 square inches, angle it slightly and it goes way up. I know my math is dirty on this because the formula I used was not the full formula, which gets to be fairly complex because I would have to estimate too many of the numbers. I used

Impact Force(F): 2 m vt

Which is really too simple. The actual formula for calculating keel impact force is longer and more complicated and I would have to calculate too much stuff after a very long day at work.

However for those interested the whole formula is here....

Guide Specifications and Commentary for Vessel Collision Design of Highway ... - Aashto - Google Books


----------



## jak3b

Starling Burgess Little Dipper.

Great book about her by Richard Baum, By The Wind.One of the many books I read when I should have been studying math.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

Jeff_H said:


> Mark,
> 
> I'm not sure that Brent's math is as wrong as you may be suggesting. My assumption is that Brent is using something like an A572 which is a high-strength low alloy steel which has better corrosion properties and more strength than A36 which you mentioned, and which has a tensile yield strength in the 60,000 psi range.
> 
> Brent said,"That is 11,250 lbs per linear inch for 3/16th plate. Multiply that by the 96 inches in the side of one of my twin keels." And in that regard, something like A572-60 that was 3/16 thick would have a tensile yield strength around 11,250 lbs per linear inch. (60,000*3/16= 11,250) His arithmetic is essentually correct.
> 
> The problem is one of how the is applying that math relative to proper engineering principles contained in Brent's metaphoric description of:
> _"That is 1.08 million pounds per side, times four keels sides.
> How are you going to break that with a boat under 20,000 lbs?" _
> 
> This metaphor assumes that the loads are shared by both keels equally and that the loads are solely in tension. Neither is likely to be present or likely to relate to the actual failure mode of the keel.
> 
> The more probable failure modes for a frameless keel connection would more likely be some mix of buckling of the keel sides in compression (skinny column failure), sheer where the keel sides try to cut through the hull plate (as you noted in your comments), or bending of the hull skin perhaps coupled with lamellar tearing near where the hull meets the keel since the hull plate would be in bending due to the large lever arm formed by the depth of the keel and the narrower width of the keel root being resisted in bending by comparably thin plate.
> 
> But beyond that I also want to touch on Brent's Herreshoff reference.
> 
> I am not sure that its clear which Herreshoff Brent is referring to, but by and large all of the Herreshoffs were consumate engineers. Nat Herreshoff and Herreshoff Manufacturing developed their own formulas for many of the calculations involved in properly engineering a boat. At a time when boats were 'engineered' by rules of thumb, Nat did his own scientific research and developed his own formulas based on his research. And he used these formulas to design some of the most sohisticatedly engineered designs in that era. He later boiled those down into his own set of widely used rules of thumb, but these were heavily based on proper engineering based methodologies.
> 
> L. Francis began his carreer working with Nat as a designer at Herreshoff Manufacturing but did the majority of his apprenticeship working beside Starling Burgess and Frank Payne at Burgess, Swasey & Paine in Boston. Burgess was one of the most creative, multi-discipline, engineering-oriented designer/ inventors of his day. Burgess was a brilliant mathematician who was able to do high level scientific research, then develop mathematic equations to explain the observations and ultimately literally wrote the book on a wide range of early 20th aeronautical engineering applications.
> 
> In yacht design, Burgess literally developed sophisticated formulas that replaced the crude rules of thumb which preceeded his time. Starling Burgess working with Glenn Curtiss was key to the design of the first successful seaplane (only a few years after the Wright Bros first flight), he designed three America's Cup winning defenders, he designed the first successful aluminum masts, he designed many of Buckminster Fuller's so called Dymaxion inventions (car and house being most notable), (and designed 'Little Dipper' for Bucky, one of the most beautiful little cutters of all time), as a kid in the late 1800's he designed one of the first light weight machine guns, he also is thought to have possibly/probably designed the Times New Roman font, wrote poetry, and novels, and produced world class paintings.
> 
> And L. Francis learned his trade at Starling's side and along side of Frank Payne as well. And Frank Payne was no slouch either when it came to sophisticated engineering. There was nothing even slightly shoddy about L. Francis's math or engineering skills.
> 
> But of all the Herreshoffs', L. Francis would be the only one that I could imagine who might write negative comments about engineering formula. I can imagine that since L. Francis was known for writing things that he thought sounded good and doing just the opposite. (Like advising adult sailors that they had an obligation to take children sailing and teach them the ways of the sea, when L. Francis notoriously hated kids and hated being around them.) So, if L. Francis was dismissive of the crude formulae of the day, it was only because he and his close life long friends, Starling and Frank, were beyond the quick and dirty engineering methods that he decried.
> 
> Sidney Dewolf Herreshoff was a graduate from MIT in engineering. 'nuf said. He used the numbers. Halsey Herrshoff has an undergraduate degree from Webb Instutute and a masters from MIT, I have to figure that he uses the numbers as well.
> 
> Please, lets try to keep the historic references close to what is actually known about these people.
> 
> Jeff


Jeff, my view on this came out of the formula for calculating bridge impact or impact on structures, as well as knowing that Brent said "mild steel" and looking at a photo of a BS boat, I can see the steel in it looks pretty ugly, and the whole thing looks pretty cheap. The problem with Brent's calculations are multiple, but the main one is that he is not working with the whole picture, his 1.8 million PSI calculation is not going to work out like it seems it might. First you have to remember that he may or may not be working with the steel you mention, my guess is that he is not, simply because it would be expensive, and his costs that he has quoted were dirt cheap. The second is that the 3/16 is on edge, now that might seem like you could multiply things out and come up with a higher number, but if I am remembering right you should not do that, because of point loading. I think, and I may be wrong, that you would actually be increasing the shear load on the hull by having the edge being like a knife or a metal shear...

The real issue is the impact forces being way above what he thinks they will be, somewhere on the upside of 250,000 psi or more, and probably a lot more, I hate to admit it but I have such a headache right now that I cannot do the math without a blackboard and chalk. You might look here and see if you can do it for us, the formula is right here. I was trying to read over it again, and I will get back to it, but the force is going to be far more than you would think.

Guide Specifications and Commentary for Vessel Collision Design of Highway ... - Aashto - Google Books


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## smackdaddy

Nice boat.


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## jak3b

She's a beaut.


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## smackdaddy

Do any of those boats actually float or sail? Or are they just always banging on hard stuff?


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## mark2gmtrans

smackdaddy said:


> Do any of those boats actually float or sail? Or are they just always banging on hard stuff?


I think there were some of the photos that were floating, but of course I could not see the keel on those.

I just keep going over the stress loads on that keel at impact, the question in my mind is why is the hull not thicker, especially in light of the fact that the boat is frameless, the impact stress is going to be high, especially since as I understand it from Brent's earlier post that the keel is filled solid with lead. My thinking is that this would make the keel a little too rigid, meaning that it would concentrate the point loads on the thin hull plating which should be far thicker than 3/16" along the keel area for the entire length of the boat.

I am still trying to get my head around the way this design is supposed to look, and why it would not have a thicker plate in this critical area. My instincts tell me the design is flawed on several levels, and only good fortune and the short length of the vessels has prevented issues that would show up if there were more than 50 of them built and actually sailing. I know that in some cases as much as 1/16" of that 3/16" hull thickness will be lost to corrosion, and even though the owner might paint on the hull coating thick as can be, which I also think is a poor design idea, heavy coating should not be considered a part of the vessels normal hull conditions. It should be coated appropriately, and done very well, but not put on extremely thick because thick hull paint will actually not last as long as properly applied coating will last. The paint that is super thick as Brent has described will actually be subject to damage due to the weight of the coating itself pulling the coating loose from the steel.

So, a thicker hull along the keel load areas for the length of the boat with frames to spread the moment. A hollow keel with heavy walled pipe to reinforce the leading and trailing edges, and lead or cast iron bulb at the base. A very well prepared and properly coated hull with a better finish and proper thickness of ablative hull paint for the bottom, and you are starting to get a better boat, but you still do not need to grind it on reefs, crash it into cargo ships, or any of the other abusive treatment Brent's clients seem prone to do so often.

As I read Brent's answer one more time I see he thickened up his keel to 1/4" in his last post, but I am still thinking that is very thin for the keel area. I do agree with Jeff H about columnar failure being an issue with the frameless design, make that boat 50' long and you have a boat with huge issues hogging and sagging, and you would have to stiffen it with a lot of bar stock welded longitudinally and frame it to keep it from warping the deck upwards and downwards like an accordion bellows, I guess you could use that for ventilation, the boat that breathes. When you factor in the mast weight flexing one way, the keel weight flexing it the other way, this design is going to beat the everliving crap out of you in short period waves.


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## mark2gmtrans

sorry about making the page fat, it was Brent's boat picture that did it.


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## mark2gmtrans

If I post one more maybe that will move us


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## mark2gmtrans

jak3b said:


> Starling Burgess Little Dipper.
> 
> Great book about her by Richard Baum, By The Wind.One of the many books I read when I should have been studying math.


Those are nice photos, I was studying math when I should have been reading, and reading when I should have been studying History, and well I did not get much sleep in college, 22 hours a semester plus a full time job.


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## Jeff_H

My dad and I read 'By The Wind' when my dad and I were learning to sail and I was a kid. It shaped my whole view of sailing and voyaging under sail. To this day I think of Baum's stories pretty often. Around 10 years ago I reread the book again and happened to notice that Baum mentioned where he lived in the foreword to the book. On a whim I looked him up on line and called the phone number. His daughter answered the phone. Richard Baum had died shortly before and they had sold the house and were cleaning out. The marriage to Lucy did not last but he sailed for most of his life. Little Dipper was owned by a curator at Mystic Seaport for a while and I spoke to him for a bit when she was for sale. By then she had an engine again.

Jeff


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## bobperry

Jeff:
A client just gave me LEARNING TO CRUISE by N. A. Calahan. Published in 1945. I'll read the book and then I will send it to you. You will love it.

Let me know if you have it already.


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## mark2gmtrans

Bob, can you help me out with that math problem a little, I have had a huge headache all day and I just cannot concentrate, hopefully it is not showing too much in my posts LOL.

The equation has to figure in the downward motion of the boat, with the gravity factored in, plus the Impulse of Force, which is getting my head to hurting more as I keep screwing it up, along with the application of time duration of the impact. I am sure you have the same formula in one of your books there, I just do not have enough information and I am having to guess on too much of it to get it right. My math background from college was physics, mostly particle physics, ( yes my parents were very disappointed for a while when I left school without getting my masters or doctoral degree, but school was just not working for me at the time), and applied physics and mechanical engineering are sometimes a struggle for me since I have had to learn it all on my own. I am having trouble getting my head around the way the impact calculation has to work with forward velocity and the downward velocity as well as the weight of the water moving with the boat increasing its momentum, as well as the way the deceleration should be calculated. 

I am also using a formula appropriate to striking a fixed object which will not work right, because I would have to use the formula on the floating Fukushima debris or submerged container as well, calculating the upward force, the speed, the mass and the force of the water giving that piece momentum as well. I only have a small dry erase board to work with and it is not large enough to do it all without erasing.... erase the board and I am erasing my brain right now  

Do you have some little program or calculator that you can use to do it if we get the estimated weights and so forth close enough to work?

Thanks


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## bobperry

Mark:
No.


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## blt2ski

Impact Resistance of Sailboat Hull Materials

An interesting article I found yesterday on the impact resistance of different boat building materials.

Marty


----------



## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> Jeff:
> A client just gave me LEARNING TO CRUISE by N. A. Calahan. Published in 1945. I'll read the book and then I will send it to you. You will love it.
> 
> Let me know if you have it already.


Bob,

Thank you for the generous offer. H.A. is always a great read. I do have a copy of 'Learning to Cruise', which is also included in "A Yachtsman's Omnibus" that I also have in my collection.

You have to love that picture of Calahan in his 'foul weather gear' with the scubbing pads tied on with twine, and his 'body and soul' strings. The other picture that I have always got a kick out of is the picture of H.A.'s outboard carrying rack hung on his spare tire. Great stuff!

I actually briefly met Calahan as a kid. He was a chemist, who developed a range marine products included "chiltered" (chilled and filtered) varnish. His business was on the Post Road in Manaroneck, N.Y., which was just down the road from the first yard where my family kept our first boat the first winter. Dad and I went in there to buy supplies and there he was. I felt like I had just met a movie star.

My favorite story of Calahan's(which I think is in that book) was when he bought his NY30 (or was it a NY40), and climbed up on deck for the first time while she was still sitting in a shed. I have always sympathized with his description of looking down the length of the deck, which seemed to stretch to the horizon, and humbly asking himself, 'How is possible that I will be able to handle a boat this big?"



bobperry said:


> Jeff:
> I'm just jealous that you got to hang with those old guys. It must have been amazing. How old are you? 244? You don't look a day over 67.


That's funny....I'm only 63. I must admit that from the time I was a young kid, I have always been a yacht designer groupie. As a kid I was like the young fans who would stand for hours at the stadium door hoping to get a famous player to autograph his ball card. Instead of ball cards I collected old sailing magazines and went anywhere that I thought I might meet a yacht designer.

For example, I would work for free at the New York Boat show just to be there and get to meet designers. That was where I met Jack Holt, Ian Proctor, Hinterhoeler, both of the C's in C&C, and Carl Alberg (who was not at all talkative).

My pilgramadges to meet designers did not always go all that well. When I was 12-13 or so, I rode my bike over to meet Bill Tripp. I waltzed into his office back to his drafting table and introduced myself saying, "I am a big fan of your work and I want to be a yacht designer when I grow up." He glanced up from his drafting table and sized me up me for a second and said words to the effect of, "I am grown up, and I am a yacht designer, and I have work to do." and then motioned towards the door I came in through.

My time with Charlie Wittholz gave me a first hand glimpse into the various personalities in Rhodes and Alden offices of the late 1930's through the early 1950's. Charlie told his own stories about making pilgramages to meet designers including one of taking a train, and then walking miles to meet L. Francis Herreshoff, only to be sent packing in much the same way as Bill Tripp sent me on my way. Charlie also had great stories about guys like William Albert Robinson and the Colman's who built the Rhodes Bounty's.

I made a pilgramage to meet Gilmer and had a nice afternoon chat in which we agreed on almost nothing. I have met most of the Annapolis based designers.

I met a lot of designers in odd ways. I worked on "Improbable" at Direcktors Florida yard getting her ready for the Admiral's Cup. A very young Ron Holland was Gary Mull's on site representative. (I've told him this story a few years back.) The yard workers saw him as a pain in the butt. This was the first time that the yard has sprayed Awlgrip and something had gone badly wrong. We had spent a hectic week and a half cleaning up the mess and it was decided that we would spray the final coat on a Saturday when the yard was closed. To keep the dust down, all the shed doors were kept close. This was Florida in July. It was miserably hot.

We had gotten everything set up and ready to go, when Ron Holland walked into the shed. It was just me, the paint foreman and Ron, and I could tell the paint foreman was not happy to see Ron. The paint foreman told Ron that we would be another hour setting up and sent him to buy beer, giving him a **** and bull story about beer stores being closed on Saturday in that town and giving him bad directions to a place to buy beer in the next town. Ron went off in search of beer and by the time he got back we had finished most of the paint job.

I doubt you would recall this since I was but one of the large crowd who you would have met aboard that Valiant 42, but you and I met at an Annapolis Boat Show. I had asked Bernie Jakits if he knew when you would be at the show and made a point of being there at that time.

But of all the designers of all time, growing up Starling Burgess stood out as a bigger than life hero. The sheer inventiveness and multidiscipline nature of Burgess's creativity was inspriational to me. To me he was Leonardo Da Vinci who had died only 3 years before I was born. To me, Burgess was a giant with one foot standing on science and the other in art. I once bought a book on Glenn Curtiss only because it talked about Burgess.

I also was a huge fan of Nat Herreshoff for similar reasons.

I was a huge fan of Marchaj, for his ability to explain the science in a way that even I could understand, and Chappelle, for pioneering the preservation of sailing history. As an adult, I talked to him a few weeks before he died, and to George Stadel on that same landmark day.

As I type this, I have a renewed sympathy for my parents. I was a pretty strange kid. I guess I still am at 63.....

Jeff


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## bobperry

Jeff:
Funny Tripp story.
When I went to work at Carter's I called K. Aage Nielsen. I loved his work and I wanted to meet him. I asked him if I could come to the office. He said something like "only if you plan on spending money". I never called him back. Bill Garden was very generous with his time when I was a kid. He could have blown me off but he was patient with me. Whenever a kid calls me and wants to visit I remember the way Bill treated me and I respond the best I can the same way.

My friend Nathan, started Valiant, made an appointment to meet L. Francis. He arrived at the Castle one snowy night, having driven from New York, and knocked on the door. The famous "housekeeper" opened the door, looked at Nathan, made some comment about his long hair and sent him packing.


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## Jeff_H

L. Francis's 'housekeeper' was notorious. Maybe that was part of the job as 'housekeeper'. When I called Howard Chappelle a woman, who I've always assumed was a housekeeper answered the phone. I asked to speak to Mr. Chappelle and explained why I was calling. She tried to shoe me off and said very gravely, "Mr. Chappelle is very sick and is not expected to live." (or words to that affect.) 

There was a moment of silence as I let the words sink in and then I heard what sounded like a weak voice from another room saying, "Who is that?". The woman said,"Its a young man who wants to talk about boats." Chappelle replied sharply, "Bring me that phone." Howard Chappelle and I talked for quite a while and eventually he begged off as his energy was fading. He had suggested that I call George Stadel to get my question answered, and when I talked to Stadel to please send Howard's regards. 

I called George Stadel that very day and at the end of the call I said, "I was talking to Howard Chappelle earlier today, and Howard sends his regards." I felt terrible, like some kind of insenitive name dropper and quickly explained about Howard's health and the call. Howard Chappelle died a few weeks later. 

As a kid I was totally crestfallen by Bill Tripp's reaction. But in hindsight, as an adult, I have long since rationalized it as a busy man perhaps on a deadline. 

I guess that designer's personalities vary widely. Charlie told me that Alden was like a Father and like a child to all he met. My Dad spoke with Phil Rhodes who was totally gracious and humble. Olin Stephens seemed to be the same way. Bruce Farr has always kindly answered my questions with great poise and kindness. Jack Holt was a real trip but also very kind with his time. (The second year that I worked at the NY Boat show Jack said, "Aren't you the same kid who polished the bronze here last year? How the hell have you been?" I answered that was me and I wanted to ask him about something he had said the year before... But before I could ask my question, he good naturedly said," I sure hope that you have not been thinking about anything that I might have said for a whole year." ) 

In my own life, I always try to be accessible to young folks who are considering my profession or learning about boats for that matter. I feel like I am returning the gifts that life have given me. Besides I enjoy it. I once tutored a young man who wanted to be a yacht designer when he was in Jr. High. Over the course of the school year he designed, with me riding shotgun a MORC boat. He ended up studying naval architecture at Kings Point and after a stint in the merchant marine is a naval architect with a company that designs ships. 

Oh well, Back to work, 
Jeff


----------



## outbound

Just want to thank Jeff for sharing his time on this forum. Sailed over to the Bristol Museum a couple of weeks ago. Even the admiral left in awe. Amazing story how their catamaran won all her races and resulted in cats being banned from racing. Their sail to NY is a good tale as well. Amazing what a blind man and a kid with brains and spirit could end up doing given the age in which they lived. ? Any stories about Schumacher or Frers or gentleman Jim. Could read your posts all day.
Bit- It was a good read and makes me happier about my choice of boat regardless of the BS from BS. Thanks.


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## tdw

bobperry said:


> Jeff:
> A client just gave me LEARNING TO CRUISE by N. A. Calahan. Published in 1945. I'll read the book and then I will send it to you. You will love it.
> 
> Let me know if you have it already.


It surprised me that none of Calahan's books have been "Gutenberged". Well out of copyright and no longer in print they certainly qualify. I know I know I know ... turning pages is it own reward but its a damn sight easier to read a back lit tablet when snugged up in the cockpit at 0200 than a book.

Anyone interested should search Abe or Alibris. I ordered a copy yesterday for a couple of bucks. Postage to Oz was twice the cost of the book. Grrrr.


----------



## Brent Swain

blt2ski said:


> Impact Resistance of Sailboat Hull Materials
> 
> An interesting article I found yesterday on the impact resistance of different boat building materials.
> 
> Marty


Excellent! Great article. Thanks. It reaffirms my comments about transverse frames making it much easier to punch a hole in a boat. When a BC ferry ran aground in Gunboat Pass, a client dove on her. He said it was creased between the frames, and only holed at each frame. Had the longitudinals been set away from the frames, with no contact between frames and hull plate , he said she would have been creased full length, with no holes in her. 
I have read that river boat racers have steel bottoms and aluminium topsides, because steel is far more resistant to holing.
With origami boats you can whack her with a sledge hammer, as hard as you want, away from chines, without denting or damaging her in any way. The plate simply springs back with nothing hard to bend the plate against. It only dents if your whack her near a hard point, such as a chine . That is why my 36 footers have survived pounding on lee shores and coral, in big surf, with no hull dents. Had they been framed, they would have been severely dented between the frames.
A friend, building a fibreglass Endurance 35, wanted to change the interior, eliminating some plywood bulkheads. He asked the hull builders, Dekleer brothers, if they were structurally needed. The long time professional builders said " The most likely place to find cracked fibreglass is at the bulkheads. Eliminating bulkheads reduces the chances of the hull cracking." He later did a Pacific circumnavigation and a world circumnavigation, with no problems . The boat is anchored in Nanaimo BC, off Protection Island.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Jeff:
> Funny Tripp story.
> When I went to work at Carter's I called K. Aage Nielsen. I loved his work and I wanted to meet him. I asked him if I could come to the office. He said something like "only if you plan on spending money". I never called him back. Bill Garden was very generous with his time when I was a kid. He could have blown me off but he was patient with me. Whenever a kid calls me and wants to visit I remember the way Bill treated me and I respond the best I can the same way.
> 
> My friend Nathan, started Valiant, made an appointment to meet L. Francis. He arrived at the Castle one snowy night, having driven from New York, and knocked on the door. The famous "housekeeper" opened the door, looked at Nathan, made some comment about his long hair and sent him packing.


Long after the money has been spent , the satisfaction of having helped someone fulfill their dreams remains. Making money less relevant in one's life, enables one to do that far more often, without regard for money. Concentrate on helping people realize their dreams, and the money will take care of itself.
Some get it; some don't. The former are much happier people.
Celebrate the successes of others as your own ,and you are always winning.


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> Mark,
> 
> I'm not sure that Brent's math is as wrong as you may be suggesting. My assumption is that Brent is using something like an A572 which is a high-strength low alloy steel which has better corrosion properties and more strength than A36 which you mentioned, and which has a tensile yield strength in the 60,000 psi range.
> 
> Brent said,"That is 11,250 lbs per linear inch for 3/16th plate. Multiply that by the 96 inches in the side of one of my twin keels." And in that regard, something like A572-60 that was 3/16 thick would have a tensile yield strength around 11,250 lbs per linear inch. (60,000*3/16= 11,250) His arithmetic is essentually correct.
> 
> The problem is one of how the is applying that math relative to proper engineering principles contained in Brent's metaphoric description of:
> _"That is 1.08 million pounds per side, times four keels sides.
> How are you going to break that with a boat under 20,000 lbs?" _
> 
> This metaphor assumes that the loads are shared by both keels equally and that the loads are solely in tension. Neither is likely to be present or likely to relate to the actual failure mode of the keel.
> 
> The more probable failure modes for a frameless keel connection would more likely be some mix of buckling of the keel sides in compression (skinny column failure), sheer where the keel sides try to cut through the hull plate (as you noted in your comments), or bending of the hull skin perhaps coupled with lamellar tearing near where the hull meets the keel since the hull plate would be in bending due to the large lever arm formed by the depth of the keel and the narrower width of the keel root being resisted in bending by comparably thin plate.
> 
> But beyond that I also want to touch on Brent's Herreshoff reference.
> 
> I am not sure that its clear which Herreshoff Brent is referring to, but by and large all of the Herreshoffs were consumate engineers. Nat Herreshoff and Herreshoff Manufacturing developed their own formulas for many of the calculations involved in properly engineering a boat. At a time when boats were 'engineered' by rules of thumb, Nat did his own scientific research and developed his own formulas based on his research. And he used these formulas to design some of the most sohisticatedly engineered designs in that era. He later boiled those down into his own set of widely used rules of thumb, but these were heavily based on proper engineering based methodologies.
> 
> L. Francis began his carreer working with Nat as a designer at Herreshoff Manufacturing but did the majority of his apprenticeship working beside Starling Burgess and Frank Payne at Burgess, Swasey & Paine in Boston. Burgess was one of the most creative, multi-discipline, engineering-oriented designer/ inventors of his day. Burgess was a brilliant mathematician who was able to do high level scientific research, then develop mathematic equations to explain the observations and ultimately literally wrote the book on a wide range of early 20th aeronautical engineering applications.
> 
> In yacht design, Burgess literally developed sophisticated formulas that replaced the crude rules of thumb which preceeded his time. Starling Burgess working with Glenn Curtiss was key to the design of the first successful seaplane (only a few years after the Wright Bros first flight), he designed three America's Cup winning defenders, he designed the first successful aluminum masts, he designed many of Buckminster Fuller's so called Dymaxion inventions (car and house being most notable), (and designed 'Little Dipper' for Bucky, one of the most beautiful little cutters of all time), as a kid in the late 1800's he designed one of the first light weight machine guns, he also is thought to have possibly/probably designed the Times New Roman font, wrote poetry, and novels, and produced world class paintings.
> 
> And L. Francis learned his trade at Starling's side and along side of Frank Payne as well. And Frank Payne was no slouch either when it came to sophisticated engineering. There was nothing even slightly shoddy about L. Francis's math or engineering skills.
> 
> But of all the Herreshoffs', L. Francis would be the only one that I could imagine who might write negative comments about using engineering formulas. I can imagine that since L. Francis was known for writing things that he thought sounded good and doing just the opposite. (Like advising adult sailors that they had an obligation to take children sailing and teach them the ways of the sea, when L. Francis notoriously hated kids and hated being around them.) So, if L. Francis was dismissive of the crude formulae of the day, it was only because he and his close life long friends, Starling and Frank, were beyond the quick and dirty engineering methods that he decried.
> 
> Sidney Dewolf Herreshoff was a graduate from MIT in engineering. 'nuf said. He used the numbers. Halsey Herrshoff has an undergraduate degree from Webb Instutute and a masters from MIT, I have to figure that he uses the numbers as well.
> 
> Please, lets try to keep the historic references close to what is actually known about these people.
> 
> Jeff


1.08 million pounds per side, times two, means 3.6 million pounds per keel, if you only hit one keel at a time. Sheer and tensile are the same at that point, as you are not talking about a sharp edge. Still not wooden boat numbers, nor plastic boat numbers. To buckle, plate has to buckles both ways, inward and outward . Kind of hard to for it to buckle inwards, if they have 4500 lbs of lead cast inside.
How do my 4 lengths of 3 by 3 by 1/2 inch angles across the tops of the keels, slotted and fully welded into them , let the plate take all the flexing? 
How does running the 3/16th water tank top, fully welded in against the inside edge of the keel, a fully welded steel longitudinal bulkhead, a triangular shape, let the hull plate take all the flexing, when it gives you three curved, fully welded edges of steel coming together ? How do they allow the hull plate to bend at that point, like a simple flat piece of steel, when they are far more structurally complex?

I think the biggest problem some have in comprehending steel hull shapes and their structural factors, is they are incapable of seeing structural loads in three dimensions. They only look at a cross section in two dimensions, and make their conclusions on that basis. That is why some put a longitudinal right next to a cabin side, which is a super strong longitudinal in itself , then put a series of gussets along the sheer, when such an I beam structural equivalent needs only two supports anywhere along its length; any more being structurally irrelevant. That is why they suggest longitudinal stiffeners along the keel side, when the keel itself is the structural equivalent of a fully welded longitudinal steel 1/4 inch plate bulkhead.

Where they get really loonie tune, is when they talk about hogging and sagging in a 36 foot steel boat, which would take 12 1/2 feet of 1/8th inch deck and cabin side plate to stretch longitudinally, or more than 10 feet of 3/16th hull plate to stretch longitudinally . Racers have shortened the waterline of plastic racing boats for measuring, by putting a hydraulic backstay tensioner on and jacking it up til the boat bows and sags considerably, shortening the waterline considerably. When I tried to take some twist out of an origami 36 ft hull, by a 3 ton come along from the top corner of the transom to the opposite chine, I broke handle off the come along without changing it a 16th of an inch. The hydraulic back stay tensioner would break the back stay before shortening the waterline 1/16th of an inch. Implying that transverse frames will stop hogging and sagging is like saying that transverse frames will stop a camera bellows from lengthening or shortening, or sagging. You couldn't ask for a clearer demonstration of a complete inability to see reality in three dimensions.

As for L Francis Hereshoff, I suggest you read his book "The Common Sense of Yacht Design," in which he ridicules mathematical exhibitionists.
As he points out , if you add up the areas of sections in sq feet, and multiply it by the space between them, you get your displacement in cubic feet. Multiply this by the number of pounds of water per cubic ft and you have your displacement , exhibitionists Simpson's multipliers be damned. Compare this with a figure acquired by multiplying the area of your midships section by your waterline length, and you have your prismatic coeficient .

Its that simple , to the consternation of exhibitionists!


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> So, wait, if I add up the lineal inches for every Brent boat that's ever been built, isn't that, like, in the _billions_?
> 
> Dang. Those _are_ some strong boats.


Compare it to the number of copper fastenings holding a woodie together, or the frozen snot holding a glass boat together, and yes, it is super strong.
You are finally beginning to get it ! Congratulations!


----------



## Brent Swain

mark2gmtrans said:


> Okay, let's address the math here....
> 
> First we need know that to figure the force of the impact, we are going to have to calculate the Impulse of Force, which is the force of the impact in PSI in this case over the period (length of time) of the impact. In order to know the force we have to know the weight, the speed and the size of the impact point, and to get the Impulse on that we need to know the duration.
> 
> From there it is a simple little calculus problem, and we can get it all done in just a few minutes. So, we figure that the length of one of Brent's keels is about 60 inches long by 6 inches wide at the point of contact. ( I tried to look up some of Brent's designs on sailboatdata.com like I do with Bob's or Roger Long's but I found this photo, and I am just kind of guessing on the actual length, at the end of the story it won't matter.
> 
> So we have a weight (per Brent) of 20,000 lbs
> A hull impact area of 360 square inches maximum.
> We will designate a forward hull speed of 10 knots which is 26.465 per sec
> A downward force of 954417 N on the keel, and that is not a full calculation, but there are too few here who would understand the math to make it worth the effort.
> 
> So that translates to 214561.47 PSI
> 
> Score Fukushima Debris Field 1 BS hull Zero
> 
> In other words a full on 10 knot collision would poke a hole in your boat, and that force is the force that would occur along the entire 360 square inches, angle it slightly and it goes way up. I know my math is dirty on this because the formula I used was not the full formula, which gets to be fairly complex because I would have to estimate too many of the numbers. I used
> 
> Impact Force(F): 2 m vt
> 
> Which is really too simple. The actual formula for calculating keel impact force is longer and more complicated and I would have to calculate too much stuff after a very long day at work.
> 
> However for those interested the whole formula is here....
> 
> Guide Specifications and Commentary for Vessel Collision Design of Highway ... - Aashto - Google Books


There is a far simpler formula. Steel origami boat T- bones steel barge at hull speed . Zero damage. Steel origami boat pounds for 16 days in 8 to 12 ft surf with zero damage . Steel origami boat pounds across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef and is pulled off thru similar surf . Zero damage . Steel origami boat goes thru NW passage in one summer .Zero damage . Steel origami boat pounds thru a quarter mile of five inch ice . Zero damage.
Fiberglass boat pounds in surf . Demolished in minutes. Results conclusive.
Plastic boat T- bones Lasqueti Island, while the skipper tries out new autopilot and new girlfriend simultaneously . 14 feet of boat demolished. Skipper never lives it down.

Ego demolished.

No mathematical exhibitionism ( or fantasy) necessary!


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## bobperry

So much BS, BS, BS. You'd think he has nothing better to do than type.
I went tri sailing today with my buddy Doug. The tri is an F28R with an F31 rig. This is the boat that won the Race to the Straits overall this year. We reached at over 14 knots and beat up Port Susan at up to 9.3 knots. I had a ball. It's a far cry from the BS here.
We stopped at Langley for lunch. I saw a really ugly boat with a PH in the marina. It reminded me of ,,,,but no.

BS you react like a cornered animal. You project your weaknesses. Why so defensive? Be proud of those boats you create and respect the preferences of others. That's a simple way to approach life in general. I'm not a trimaran kind of guy but I had a blast today. I could easily get used to those speeds.


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## bobperry

Here's another shot showing just how terrified Doug and I were sailing a grp production boat in salmon infested waters. Obviosly neither of us was having a good time. We spent our time pondering the great depths of why one man should impose his way of thinking on other people. We quit that after 3 minutes and just enjoyed the sail. I am happy to say we made it home safely. In fact, after Doug dropped me off at my Walker Bay hanging on my mooring he went back out by himself. The last I saw of him he had a big JUICE PLUS asym up and was rocketing down the bay. Flirting with certain death I suppose. Probably went looking for things to bash into.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Compare it to the number of copper fastenings holding a woodie together, or the frozen snot holding a glass boat together, and yes, it is super strong.
> You are finally beginning to get it ! Congratulations!


So what you're saying is when I start saying absolutely insane things...in your mind, I'm "beginning to get it".

Okay. Makes sense.


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## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Be proud of those boats you create and respect the preferences of others. That's a simple way to approach life in general.


Brent, this is the best advice you'll ever receive in your life. If you don't take it, you're a fool - and will simply continue to destroy what's left of your legacy.


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## mark2gmtrans

Brent, 

I know you are severely challenged on the math because you just cannot in good conscious be saying that I could exert three million pounds of force on one of your thin skinned little boats and not squish it flat, much less thinking that I could give your hull a three million pound impact and not send the thing to the moon with a GIANT GAPING HOLE IN IT. 

Exert a three million PSI impact on the keel and it would probably exit the hull through the deck and land somewhere on Mars.

But, I am happy if you are happy, so if you have people buying your BS boats then go forth be fruitful and multiply.


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## jak3b

bobperry said:


> Here's another shot showing just how terrified Doug and I were sailing a grp production boat in salmon infested waters. Obviosly neither of us was having a good time. We spent our time pondering the great depths of why one man should impose his way of thinking on other people. We quit that after 3 minutes and just enjoyed the sail. I am happy to say we made it home safely. In fact, after Doug dropped me off at my Walker Bay hanging on my mooring he went back out by himself. The last I saw of him he had a big JUICE PLUS asym up and was rocketing down the bay. Flirting with certain death I suppose. Probably went looking for things to bash into.


Any day sailing is always a good day!. I went out today tn an Islander 36 I have been doing alot of work on.Had a blast.Missed the Louis Viton Race but saw the Oracle cats practicing.I am jealous Bob, you seem to have sunshine where you are at.It was a typical San Francisco summer day here,overcast,about 65,15 - 18 knots.Luckily we were able to avoid hitting any Salmon to.Had a tense moment after getting in, We thought a Night Heron was going to land at the masthead,Phew! he flew by.Close call


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## mark2gmtrans

Bob,

I have to say I am a bit jealous, you braved those salmon infested waters with only the protection offered by your fine choice in Hawaiian flowerdy shirts to protect you from the vicious salmon. As a fellow Hawaiian flowerdy shirt connoisseur I think the choice of the blue shirt was an excellent choice as it offers superior protection in the case of salmon attack.

I know the sailing must have been great, and even if it was on a strange tri hulled thing it was still a day spent enjoying the thrill of risking your life on the waves of the salmon infested waters of the great PNW. I will have to stop by sometime when I get back on the water next year and perhaps we can compare Hawaiian shirts and swap tales of close calls with the terrifying salmon.


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## blt2ski

I was in Port Townsend today. Behind a building was some "little" wide flat bottomed 4 or 5 spreader ed rig, name of "Glory" or some such name.......in the front was something I envision came from a BS design. Not sure that thing would sail under its sails ina blinken hurricane! The keel, probably of steel like the rest of the boat appeared to be, had a flat 6" plate going forward! Talk about resistance! Mean while the keel on the other boat other than the bulb that was down at least 8-10' will swag, was all of 2-3" thick! Maybe a foot of hull in the water. The hull on the steely was at least 3-4' down, then maybe 3' of keel............

I know which of those boats would be more fun no matter the sailing I did, excepting when trying to sail on a rocky REEF some where!

Marty


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## mark2gmtrans

blt2ski said:


> I was in Port Townsend today. Behind a building was some "little" wide flat bottomed 4 or 5 spreader ed rig, name of "Glory" or some such name.......in the front was something I envision came from a BS design. Not sure that thing would sail under its sails ina blinken hurricane! The keel, probably of steel like the rest of the boat appeared to be, had a flat 6" plate going forward! Talk about resistance! Mean while the keel on the other boat other than the bulb that was down at least 8-10' will swag, was all of 2-3" thick! Maybe a foot of hull in the water. The hull on the steely was at least 3-4' down, then maybe 3' of keel............
> 
> I know which of those boats would be more fun no matter the sailing I did, excepting when trying to sail on a rocky REEF some where!
> 
> Marty


Marty I think I prefer to try to sail on WATER and not on the reefs. Most likely I will be okay without a BS design.


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## bubb2

blt2ski said:


> I was in Port Townsend today. Behind a building was some "little" wide flat bottomed 4 or 5 spreader ed rig, name of "Glory" or some such name.......in the front was something I envision came from a BS design. Not sure that thing would sail under its sails ina blinken hurricane! The keel, probably of steel like the rest of the boat appeared to be, had a flat 6" plate going forward! Talk about resistance! Mean while the keel on the other boat other than the bulb that was down at least 8-10' will swag, was all of 2-3" thick! Maybe a foot of hull in the water. The hull on the steely was at least 3-4' down, then maybe 3' of keel............
> 
> I know which of those boats would be more fun no matter the sailing I did, excepting when trying to sail on a rocky REEF some where!
> 
> Marty


I agree, if we would apply BS's logic to cars we would all be driving Sherman tanks.

I been biting my lip reading this thread as I have been involved in a sailboat collision. My little plastic benne was run down behind by a 45 foot Searay which was on plane at the time. over $60,000 damages between both boats but nether boat was holed or sunk. I know first hand how tough plastic boats are.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/8103-can-happen.html


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## blt2ski

mark,

I'll have to take a pic of the boat friday if I am up that way. I have to admit, it was not a "BAD" looking boat. This one looked ok overall. It is what I think one of BS's boats should look like in "orgami" construction. It had a pilot house design. which could be good around this area considering how gray it can be.......BUT, that particular design is not what I would have in mind. 

On the other hand, in Port Angelas, was an older Fisher pilot house motor sailor. Even when those came out, I liked the look of them! They looked PNW at its best. Not sure how well they sail per say, but have to be better than that steely I saw today! ALong with way the heck better looking! one I could handle being seen in! or having the best women in ones life's name on the rear!

marty


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## blt2ski

Bubb,

Forgot about that incident! A few weeks ago, a member of my YC had there barely 4-5 month old Jeanneau 44DS hit at a dock by a big power boat too. Supposedly only caused 20K in damage.........that is the initial estimate, along with losing ANY warranty they had from Jeanneau! That has to add something to the total in some way shape or form. But the boat motored and made it back from BC into the US to the dealers yard where it is out of the water, either still waiting to get repaired, or being repaired as we speak.

From folks that saw the incident, it was scary, surprising the boat held up. As much as folks like to say Jeanneau's, Beneteau's Even Hunter will fall apart, they are stronger than one thinks.

On other fronts, HERE is a race I am doing in two weekends, if anybody can donate to the cause, please do so! any names added to the donation part, will go on an older main sail I am painting pink! One can see the person we are sailing in memory of on that page.

Marty


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## BryceGTX

mark2gmtrans said:


> Okay, let's address the math here....
> 
> First we need know that to figure the force of the impact, we are going to have to calculate the Impulse of Force, which is the force of the impact in PSI in this case over the period (length of time) of the impact. In order to know the force we have to know the weight, the speed and the size of the impact point, and to get the Impulse on that we need to know the duration.
> 
> From there it is a simple little calculus problem, and we can get it all done in just a few minutes. So, we figure that the length of one of Brent's keels is about 60 inches long by 6 inches wide at the point of contact. ( I tried to look up some of Brent's designs on sailboatdata.com like I do with Bob's or Roger Long's but I found this photo, and I am just kind of guessing on the actual length, at the end of the story it won't matter.
> 
> So we have a weight (per Brent) of 20,000 lbs
> A hull impact area of 360 square inches maximum.
> We will designate a forward hull speed of 10 knots which is 26.465 per sec
> A downward force of 954417 N on the keel, and that is not a full calculation, but there are too few here who would understand the math to make it worth the effort.
> 
> So that translates to 214561.47 PSI
> 
> Score Fukushima Debris Field 1 BS hull Zero
> 
> In other words a full on 10 knot collision would poke a hole in your boat, and that force is the force that would occur along the entire 360 square inches, angle it slightly and it goes way up. I know my math is dirty on this because the formula I used was not the full formula, which gets to be fairly complex because I would have to estimate too many of the numbers. I used
> 
> Impact Force(F): 2 m vt
> 
> Which is really too simple. The actual formula for calculating keel impact force is longer and more complicated and I would have to calculate too much stuff after a very long day at work.
> 
> However for those interested the whole formula is here....
> 
> Guide Specifications and Commentary for Vessel Collision Design of Highway ... - Aashto - Google Books


It seems to me you are speaking apples and oranges. Brent is simply giving a calculation that is perfectly correct. His statement is only to give the impression that the keel is strong. And his numbers are correct.

On the other hand, you are providing a trivial collision calculation that is quite far from reality and does not reflect what sailboats do. For instance, my boat is 20,000 lbs. Real-life, I hit a sandbar at about 8 knots, stopped the boat dead. Threw us both head over heels, but did no damage to the keel or the hull.. not even a crack in the keel to hull joint. Your calculations indicate our boat was holed!!!

You are failing to include the dynamic effects of deformation of the boat or the item collided with. Inertial effects are poorly represented.
Bryce


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## BryceGTX

mark2gmtrans said:


> Brent,
> 
> I know you are severely challenged on the math because you just cannot in good conscious be saying that I could exert three million pounds of force on one of your thin skinned little boats and not squish it flat, much less thinking that I could give your hull a three million pound impact and not send the thing to the moon with a GIANT GAPING HOLE IN IT.
> 
> Exert a three million PSI impact on the keel and it would probably exit the hull through the deck and land somewhere on Mars.
> 
> But, I am happy if you are happy, so if you have people buying your BS boats then go forth be fruitful and multiply.


You are talking about two things here. Million pound forces and impact forces. These are quite different things the way I see it.  You are also mixing PSI and forces.

Brent specifically mentions pounding forces from waves, so it might be interesting to determine what these pounding forces might be.

My boat, 20000 lbs, say 10000 kg, drops off a 10 foot wave into a trough. Due to dynamic forces decelerates in about a foot or so. Acceleration of gravity is 9.8 m/s^2. Deceleration is about 100 m/s^2 when it hit the bottom of the wave. So total force is.. you do the math.. 1,000,000 N or 200,000 pounds.

Now I am sure Catalina has significant design margins.. could be a factor of 5. So it seems, it is not very hard to get to 1,000,000 pounds of force.

However, again I must point out that Brents number of millions of pounds is not incorrect. But your interpretation of it seems to be incorrect.
Bryce


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## bobperry

"I agree, if we would apply BS's logic to cars we would all be driving Sherman tanks." 

Maybe. I was thinking more like NY Checker cabs.


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## bubb2

bobperry said:


> "I agree, if we would apply BS's logic to cars we would all be driving Sherman tanks."
> 
> Maybe. I was thinking more like NY Checker cabs.


:laugher:laugher:laugher

My youngest son just got his learners permit. He has visions of a Ferrari as a first car. Dad is thinking Checker cab.


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## mark2gmtrans

BryceGTX said:


> You are talking about two things here. Million pound forces and impact forces. These are quite different things the way I see it. You are also mixing PSI and forces.
> 
> Brent specifically mentions pounding forces from waves, so it might be interesting to determine what these pounding forces might be.
> 
> My boat, 20000 lbs, say 10000 kg, drops off a 10 foot wave into a trough. Due to dynamic forces decelerates in about a foot or so. Acceleration of gravity is 9.8 m/s^2. Deceleration is about 100 m/s^2 when it hit the bottom of the wave. So total force is.. you do the math.. 1,000,000 N or 200,000 pounds.
> 
> Now I am sure Catalina has significant design margins.. could be a factor of 5. So it seems, it is not very hard to get to 1,000,000 pounds of force.
> 
> However, again I must point out that Brents number of millions of pounds is not incorrect. But your interpretation of it seems to be incorrect.
> Bryce


Actually BS was saying that his keel could take a 1.8 million PSI impact, go back and read it, if that is not what you get out of it then maybe I am wrong, but it sure looked like that was his contention. Also he is taking the linear shear maximum tensile strength and calling it the tensile strength of his hull. That is entirely incorrect. The way he is calculating it his hull would not only meet but exceed the requirements for an armored hull, but we both know that 3/16 " mild steel is not armor plate. The way that I am getting the KE figure for the impact on a solid substance ( Fukushima Debris and submerged cargo containers have been mentioned repeatedly as the potential impact sources) is a formula used to calculate the impact of a hull on a fixed and solid object such as a bridge. It figures in the weight of the boat, the forward momentum of the boat, the downward momentum of the boat, the weight of the water pushing along in concert with the boat and the duration of the impact as well as a few other little variables. I got the formula from an engineering text that is specifically focussed on just this type of impact on bridges by ships and boats.

The keel of a metal boat is just like the keel of any other boat in the fact that it will have a point at which it must either crumple, crush, bend, break off or stuff itself through the hull. Brent seems to think that this number is above 1.8 million pounds, in fact he seems to now think that it is even above 3.6 million pounds. I am simply trying to help Brent understand that not only would an impact force of significantly less than that hole his hull, it would be sufficient to completely destroyed the entire boat.

I do understand that you can strike a sandbar and survive, I have been on a boat where someone else was driving that struck a sandbar and only caused minor damage to the boat. As you well know the force of the impact and the abrupt stop are what do the damage, and if you are on the boat you get to experience that in a most painfully well demonstrated way. Sand is not a bridge pier, nor is it a floating piece of debris, Fukushima or otherwise, when you impact on sand the impact is spread out in a chain reaction over every single grain of sand for a long way. Hitting a sandbar or other soil type grounding impact is the least damaging type of impact you can have on your boat because the force is transmitted away from your boat through the individual grains of sand. In fact that same type of physics is what helps a fiberglass hull take a beating and still not be holed, the individual strands and the resin create a chain reaction that transmits the impact over a broader area to reduce the strain of a point load. This is what causes the damage to be far more widely spread than just the actual impact site on your FG hull.

Now, if you change that from sand to steel as in a container, or concrete as in a bridge pier, or a submerged log that is bedded hard against the bottom, you get far less kinetic energy being transmitted away from the impact, and more being transmitted to a focussed point. Some of the energy is still transmitted, but not nearly as efficiently, not nearly as much as when you hit a granular surface. In fact what will happen is the force then must needs be transmitted through your hull and eventually you as a passenger on the vessel. The steel corner of a submerged sea container is made specifically to withstand several hundred tons of weight being rested on it and transmitted along its frame to the deck of a ship, it is a very well designed structural point and it will give you a nice big hole if you hit it at hull speed or even lower. You simply cannot get away from that fact. A point loaded impact on that container has so much force behind it that something has to give, and sense BS boats have thin bottoms, some really strange avoidance of stiffeners and frames and other reinforcing they may flex a lot, but they are not flexing that much, and they will get a hole if the impact is just right. Not that any other steel, aluminum, wooden, FG, or composite hull is going to fair any better, every single one of them will get a hole in them if you hit that corner under the right conditions. The thing is BS seems to think that his will not, which kind of irks me a little because his ugly little boats are not going to do any better than someone else's design would do, and yet his boats spend a lot of time grinding on a reef like a stripper on a pole and get no damage.

I may not be an engineer, but I did spend the night at a Holiday Inn Express a time or two, and I can do the math. Your math is good, but it is not going to excuse a point loaded keel impact on concrete from causing damage. Even a military vessel or container ship does not get a pass when striking a solid object. You can even hole an icebreaker hull if you hit something solid enough at the right ( or wrong I guess) angle. Otherwise the Titanic and a lot of other ships would still be sailing, and you do have to admit that there have been a few ships sunk here and there with steel hulls and with other hull materials. To think you can grind on a reef, strike a cargo ship, hit a submerged container, and run aground on rocks without any hull damage is ludicrous, which I do not think you believe at all, though Brent does seem to try to use these things as a selling point for his design.

I think I had a link earlier in the thread to the engineering texts with the formulas in them, and you are more than welcome to present you theory on why the BS design is utterly impervious to all impact damage, but I am going to stand by my assertion that it is not. Also I am not comparing apples and oranges, more like fairy tales and facts, and yes I calculated the impact using force=m*a to get the number in one of those, which is quite valid. I also would not use the entire length of his hull or keel to show an impact on a small point, which is what he wants to do. When you hit that sandbar did you strike the entire keel evenly, or was it perhaps the leading edge that struck first and took the brunt of the impact? I think it would have been the leading edge most likely. If you strike at say the forward leading lower edge of one of the two keels do you think you should get to use the entire length of the keel to calculate the impact, or should you use the keel structure to model how the energy would flow? Since from what I was reading I gather BS keels are filled solid, the structural frame is going to be transmitting that point impact directly to the hull joint along the welded seam about 3/16 " wide but I am not sure how focussed the point would be. I am sure it is not going to be evenly distributed over the entire seam, most likely it would be pulling down at the leading edge and pushing up at the trailing edge about evenly causing an uh oh moment somewhere along the way.

Anyways, nice to have your input, go back and look at the formula in the bridge text and tell me what you think.


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## bobperry

I have a severe allergy to ugly pilot houses. Designing in grp allows me to come up with exactkly the aesthetics I want without being help hostage by the material. Here is the molded house on the 62'er at PSC placed on the boat for the first time this morning. No question that I am very biased towards my own work but I have to say I think this looks great. I drew inspiration for this shape from the designs of Phil Rhodes. The client is very happy. Congrats to Seve Brodie and his crew at PSC in NC for their great work on this project. How can you not like working with a foreman named "Thumper"?


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## mark2gmtrans

bobperry said:


> I have a severe allergy to ugly pilot houses. Designing in grp allows me to come up with exactkly the aesthetics I want without being help hostage by the material. Here is the molded house on the 62'er at PSC placed on the boat for the first time this morning. No question that I am very biased towards my own work but I have to say I think this looks great. I drew inspiration for this shape from the designs of Phil Rhodes. The client is very happy. Congrats to Seve Brodie and his crew at PSC in NC for their great work on this project. How can you not like working with a foreman named "Thumper"?


Bob that is a very nice pilothouse. I think you will not need any benadryl at all for that one.


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## bobperry

Thanks guys.
Why is it not called a "hard dodger"?

Simple. Look at the first photo. The agft bulkhead of the cabin trunk wil be extended up to the top of the PH. The oval port will be aft of this bulkhead. The top of the cabin trunk under the PH will be cut away and the PH will be over the aft cabin. There is about 40" over overhang over the cockpit so it is in effect also a hard dodger. The cockpit steps down forward so there is headroom under the overhang. We molded the boat this way so that with future boats we will have the option of having the PH or not having it.


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## outbound

Guess I'm confused. What I thought was my hard dodger extends aft over the cockpit enough to be a great place to perch when on watch and still stay dry and out of the wind. Sit there watching the screen over the companionway with the remote autopilot in my chubby hand and can scan the horizon. Love it. Went back and forth with the builder concerning tinting the glass. It's really two layers with a film between. He wanted it tinted for looks and to prevent a hot house effect in the tropics. I wanted it clear with two hatches over for ventilation and to see the sails. That way we might have a chance to miss the containers ( once saw a car) floating about at night. Like Micky D's got my way. Like the ovals in the back of Bob's-very elegant. ?What are the sight lines like when the pilot house feature is included. Seems just fine left as a hard dodger.Flows beautifully into the rest of deck.


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## bobperry

Out:
Thanks I try hard.
The site lines were all worked out on the drawings to the ergonomics of the owner and his considerably shorter wife. Then we built a mock up of the entire aft end of the boat and double checked the site lines. None needed to be adjusted. The drawings were good. What we did adjust was the amount of overhang on the ph. I wanted less and the client wanted more. It turns out when the mockup was completed that he was right and I was wrong. But in this case I was happy to be wrong. We have 43" of overhang.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> I have a severe allergy to ugly pilot houses. Designing in grp allows me to come up with exactkly the aesthetics I want without being help hostage by the material. Here is the molded house on the 62'er at PSC placed on the boat for the first time this morning. No question that I am very biased towards my own work but I have to say I think this looks great. I drew inspiration for this shape from the designs of Phil Rhodes. The client is very happy. Congrats to Seve Brodie and his crew at PSC in NC for their great work on this project. How can you not like working with a foreman named "Thumper"?


I see absolutely nothing in those pilothouses which couldn't be far more easily built in steel. I agree, there is no excuse for uglieness in a sailboat.


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## Brent Swain

mark2gmtrans said:


> Brent, I hate to tell you but your math is extremely flawed. PSI is pounds per square inch, not linear inch. A36 mild steel, and that is the most common, is 36,000 PSI, linear inches could be twenty miles and it would still be a minimum of 36,000 and a maximum of 80,000 PSI in every single inch of it. The 80K PSI is not likely to happen, it would rarely test out at over 46K PSI and even that would vary greatly from one square inch to the next.
> 
> How do you calculate the hull stress loads for your vessels? What are the machinery and static loads that you figure in when you are making your calculations? What is the wave moment that you use for calculations on maximum stress loads? What wave heights? How do you calculate the stiffeners needed in the keel, hull, and deck plating loads? How do you do the hogging and sagging stress calculations on your vessels? Do you understand that your vessels, even at 30' do undergo these stress loads and that the Dynamic Amplification Factor on the steel is not just longitudinal, but it is also a shear load, a buckling load, a bending load and an impact load, even when your hull and keel are not hitting a reef somewhere?
> 
> I have an updated copy of a little workbook that you will enjoy here, if the math is too tough on you please consider a tutor, because as a ship designer this little bit of math is a bit important.
> 
> http://www.usna.edu/Users/naome/phmiller/en358/358CourseNotesSpring2009.pdf
> 
> The rest of the guys will probably find it a good refresher on some math, and very informative. Especially on page 67 where we find this little paragraph. I think it might be an excellent thing if some people might read this and withdraw claims of absolutely no structural damage having been done to vessel which grind themselves on reefs like strippers on a pole.
> 
> Code of Ethics for Engineers
> (from National Society of Professional Engineers)
> Engineers, in the fulfillment of their professional duties, shall:
> 1. Hold paramount the safety, health and welfare of the public.
> 2. Perform services only in areas of their competence.
> 3. Issue public statements only in an objective and truthful manner.
> 4. Act for each employer or client as faithful agents or trustees.
> 5. Avoid deceptive acts.
> 6. Conduct themselves honorably, responsibly, ethically, and lawfully so as to enhance the honor,
> reputation, and usefulness of the profession.


I just did a quick search and found that Texas Steel gives the tensile strength of mild steel at 60,200PSI, roughly what I have been told over a lifetime of steel working. So your Briex-Enron style numbers jugglings are about as credible as your claim that hogging and sagging is even remotely possible in a steel 36 footer, or your fantasy world idea of epoxy paint falling of because it is on too thick.
Your theory that you will never hit a reef if you don't think about it, is equally loony.
1 .Public safety? The Sleavins , and we don't know how many more, would probably all still be alive, had they not been discouraged from choosing a metal hull, by plastic boat salesmens' disinformation.
2. Competence? Not many of any active in this discussion have my proven track record of experience and competence in small steel boatbuilding. Most have zero . But they actively spout disinformation on a subject in which they have demonstrated zero hands on competence, or proven experience. I guess that is why I have zero competition locally in affordable small steel boat building. I hope to train some t youth this coming winter, to help keep the best steel boats affordable here.
3. Truthfull? Like misleading information on the tensile strength of mild steel, along with a lot more misleading numbers juggling Enron style, or claiming paint should be thin so it wont fall off, due to its own weight? Or suggesting that there is even a remote chance of a steel 36 footer hogging or sagging?
My statements are based on experience, decades of boat designing, building and cruising, of things that actually happened , yours on naïve , amateur speculation! 
4. My clients can assure anyone that I have always been available to keep in touch and answer any questions they ask me, as well as doing a lot of pro bono consulting , in long hours, answering steel boat questions for anyone, free of any charge, unlike many designers, who charge consulting fees.
5. I don't deceive anyone .I leave that to people with zero steel boat cruising experience and zero experience maintaining and building steel boats , who spout expertise the don't have, like most on this site .
6. The honour of the profession would be best enhanced, if those who don't have the foggiest idea of what they are talking about, would educate themselves on the subject, before giving advice they are unqualified to give, or admit their lack of actual hands on experience on the subject at hand.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Out:
> Thanks I try hard.
> The site lines were all worked out on the drawings to the ergonomics of the owner and his considerably shorter wife. Then we built a mock up of the entire aft end of the boat and double checked the site lines. None needed to be adjusted. The drawings were good. What we did adjust was the amount of overhang on the ph. I wanted less and the client wanted more. It turns out when the mockup was completed that he was right and I was wrong. But in this case I was happy to be wrong. We have 43" of overhang.


With no overhand, a pilot house looks like a Volkswagon beetle, or a bald headed lady. With the right overhang ,it looks like a baldheaded lady with a baseball cap on; much better.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> The honour of the profession would be best enhanced, if those who don't have the foggiest idea of what they are talking about, would educate themselves on the subject, before giving advice they are unqualified to give, or admit their lack of actual hands on experience on the subject at hand.


Brent on steel boats sounds *exactly* like Mark on diesel engines in boats.

Virtually word for word in fact, except Brent isn't as rude & condescending.

:laugher


----------



## bobperry

BS:'
I appreciate you trying to lecture me on aesthetics. I should direct you to some of your own boats , which you seem unable to post here. An overhang on a PH is fine if it is done right and the rest of the PH design is right. Your's are a bit hard on the eye, to say the least. Some designers can pull of the "baseball cap" look well. 

Phil Rhodes, S&S, K. Aage Nielson, Chuck Paine have done Ph's with out the "baseball cap" knee jerk resolution. Face it BS, you have some issue with aesthetics. You do not have "the eye".

Of course a good Dutch or German steel boat builder could build my shapes. They did it time and again with the designs of Rhodes and S&S. But you can't do it. You have pr oven that time after painful time. Steel is a wonderful material IN THE RIGHT HANDS.


----------



## Razcar

smackdaddy said:


> Brent, that's awesome. It really is very impressive.
> 
> Your boats are not for the 99% - period. They are for the 1%.
> 
> Nothing wrong with that at all. It's just the way it is.


This could be said of just about every custom boat builder out there.

Many designs get built just a few times.

Few designs get built many times.


----------



## bobperry

Sometimes many designs get built many times.
Can you say "Mercedes Benz"?

I say it all the time while I drive my Outback.


----------



## outbound

Benefits of aluminium / K&M Yachtbuilders

Brent please take a look at this website. It speaks to what Bob is talking about. These folks are creating drop dead gorgeous boats in metal. They and the Boreal people are building boats for high latitude sailing where collisions and groundings may be unavoidable even with good seamanship. The pilothouses/hard dodgers are functional while still flowing in the design. The K M 50 was so well received it was reproduced in GRP (OMG) and put into series production winning the European yacht of the year.


----------



## Razcar

bobperry said:


> Sometimes many designs get built many times.
> Can you say "Mercedes Benz"?
> 
> I say it all the time while I drive my Outback.


Wait, are we still talking boats? Cuz, that's what I was referring to. Don't tell me you're changing the subject like BS. That's too predictable.


----------



## bobperry

Raz:
Trust me, no. I do not want to talk about my Outback. Nice car but not worth talking about.


----------



## Razcar

So I've read this post through, and it seemed to start out well. It covered steel vs fiberflass, and eventually looped in aluminum. Even titanium was mentioned. 

Then it devolved into a ridiculous something-or-other about BS's designs and claims and people picked teams and ganged up on one another.... offenses were made... people got banned, then it all came full circle, naval schooling class notes were passed out, and now I'm not sure what I'm left with. 

So I'll summarize what I think I learned (since, yes, I'm one of the people interested in steel and was hoping to learn something). I hope y'all are nice when you correct me:

1: Every material has advantages and disadvantages in boatbuilding (not to make a distinction between boats or yachts).

2: Steel, like the others, requires it's own considerations respective to maintenance, construction abilities of it's owner, hull dynamics, etc. It's not the easiest thing to sort through for a hobby builder, but doable to a certain degree by a tenacious amateur (s.v. seeker comes to mind).

3: It's better suited for larger vessels than smaller ones. The benefits diminish the smaller the vessel (in general).

4. There's a rainbow-like variation to steel and it's welding options. One must choose wisely to make the most of the benefits outlined.

5: Building a hull from scratch is doable and likely the easiest part of the project. Finishing the rest of the vessel is the harder part... the quality of which is subject to the talent dedicated to the project.

6: Steel vs. fiberglass => Steel offers more strength, but greater weight. Compensating with more sail will only get you so far. Maintenance is different in steel, and is a matter of debate based on the level of perfection desired but for the purposes of discussion could be considered similar to fiberglass in terms of cost and effort for thumbnail purposes.

7: Steel vs. aluminum => Steel is heavier, aluminum doesn't require all the coatings (saving you $), but steel is cheaper... where do you want to spend your time and money. Aluminum needs special welding and environment. Strength of aluminum may not be comparable to steel, but may be more malleable which may offer other advantages during building and sailing. Aluminum also has a lot of variations so choosing an alloy should be done with care.

8: Building a boat for yourself and having one built for you are two very different exercises. Know which camp you're in and what kind of effort you're up for. 

9: ......what am I missing....?

(and I'm really speaking in general terms here, we can muck in the quagmire of exceptions and specifications ad infinitum and it won't do most readers any good).

Thanks!


----------



## bobperry

Raz:
You forgot the part about shooting your boat with guns.

Other than that and the fact that you have "distilled" a lot of the pure design elements out of the thread and some of those are very important, I'd say you summed it up quite succinctly.


----------



## davidpm

I just received Brent's book in the mail. I have to say I'm really enjoying it. It feels like a I'm reading a historical piece from a different era. There was a time when with basic tools and a lot of work an ambitious man could make anything himself including a boat.
My dad built a few apartment houses by himself. Carpentry, cabinets, electrical site work every thing. They were small maybe 8 units all one floor and took maybe three years but he got it done.
I was apprenticed to a blacksmith when I was about 16. The guy was old, was a farrier as a young man. Lived through the change from horses to cars.
I made all the hinges and door handles for my dads house with his help.
The point was is that George could make just about anything metal in his forge.

Bret is from the same mindset. He has directions in his book on how to make an anchor windless, bilge pump, roller fuller and composting head among other ideas.

I agree that Bob Perry and Bret are never going to compete for a customer.

The average sailnet member is just not likely to be willing to use many of Bret's ideas on there glass boats or build a steel boat of his design.

I have what I think might be a novel reason why many sailnet members may want to buy his book and maybe even have it on board or scanned in and downloaded to their ipad if they can't spare the space.

If you are cruising in some remote area and break something the chances are high that with Bret's methods you could fix your boat with local help and materials and get on your way.

A few weeks saved, or maybe months depending on how the seasons fall would be worth the cover price and I found it a fun read in it's own right.

If you have any questions ask away.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

Razcar said:


> So I've read this post through, and it seemed to start out well. It covered steel vs fiberflass, and eventually looped in aluminum. Even titanium was mentioned.
> 
> Then it devolved into a ridiculous something-or-other about BS's designs and claims and people picked teams and ganged up on one another.... offenses were made... people got banned, then it all came full circle, naval schooling class notes were passed out, and now I'm not sure what I'm left with.
> 
> So I'll summarize what I think I learned (since, yes, I'm one of the people interested in steel and was hoping to learn something). I hope y'all are nice when you correct me:
> 
> 1: Every material has advantages and disadvantages in boatbuilding (not to make a distinction between boats or yachts).
> 
> 2: Steel, like the others, requires it's own considerations respective to maintenance, construction abilities of it's owner, hull dynamics, etc. It's not the easiest thing to sort through for a hobby builder, but doable to a certain degree by a tenacious amateur (s.v. seeker comes to mind).
> 
> 3: It's better suited for larger vessels than smaller ones. The benefits diminish the smaller the vessel (in general).
> 
> 4. There's a rainbow-like variation to steel and it's welding options. One must choose wisely to make the most of the benefits outlined.
> 
> 5: Building a hull from scratch is doable and likely the easiest part of the project. Finishing the rest of the vessel is the harder part... the quality of which is subject to the talent dedicated to the project.
> 
> 6: Steel vs. fiberglass => Steel offers more strength, but greater weight. Compensating with more sail will only get you so far. Maintenance is different in steel, and is a matter of debate based on the level of perfection desired but for the purposes of discussion could be considered similar to fiberglass in terms of cost and effort for thumbnail purposes.
> 
> 7: Steel vs. aluminum => Steel is heavier, aluminum doesn't require all the coatings (saving you $), but steel is cheaper... where do you want to spend your time and money. Aluminum needs special welding and environment. Strength of aluminum may not be comparable to steel, but may be more malleable which may offer other advantages during building and sailing. Aluminum also has a lot of variations so choosing an alloy should be done with care.
> 
> 8: Building a boat for yourself and having one built for you are two very different exercises. Know which camp you're in and what kind of effort you're up for.
> 
> 9: ......what am I missing....?
> 
> (and I'm really speaking in general terms here, we can muck in the quagmire of exceptions and specifications ad infinitum and it won't do most readers any good).
> 
> Thanks!


Raz,

We can definitely agree that there are some great steel boats, some wonderful aluminum boats, some beautiful wooden boats, and some awesome fiberglass boats....however none of them are BS boats...

I love a beautiful sailboat, no matter what it is made out of, but I think that these are just about some of the most beautiful. I admit it may be that I am sentimental about the wooden boats, their lines, the simplicity of the design which is simple yet highly functional and the material speaks to me. I would love to have a great big aluminum sailboat with all the toys and goodies, but to be honest I would probably be just as pleased, possibly even more pleased, to own one of these. ( I would want to update the electronics, and probably the head on most of them, but hey every sailor wants to have the best in both of those places).

For your viewing pleasure....


----------



## smackdaddy

Razcar said:


> 2: Steel, like the others, requires it's own considerations respective to maintenance, construction abilities of it's owner, hull dynamics, etc. It's not the easiest thing to sort through for a hobby builder, but doable to a certain degree by a tenacious amateur (s.v. seeker comes to mind).


If you think Seeker is an "amateur" - you're kidding yourself. Oh...and..

213. Used fiberglass boats are the best possible way to for the 99% to realize their dreams of cruising affordably.


----------



## BryceGTX

mark2gmtrans said:


> Actually BS was saying that his keel could take a 1.8 million PSI impact, go back and read it, if that is not what you get out of it then maybe I am wrong, but it sure looked like that was his contention. Also he is taking the linear shear maximum tensile strength and calling it the tensile strength of his hull. That is entirely incorrect. The way he is calculating it his hull would not only meet but exceed the requirements for an armored hull, but we both know that 3/16 " mild steel is not armor plate. .


His exact statement is below. He clearly is talking only about the keel itself and describing the total force based on strength. Nothing to do with the hull. He is also not saying the keel can sustain a million pound impact, just giving an indication of strength. Numbers seem correct as TS*Area. Weather it is A36, 1018 or some other alloyed steel seems inconsequential in the discussion. Seems to me his point about sheer-tensile is referring to the point about buckling that Jeff is talking about. Not that shear strength is some how the same as tensile strength.



> 1.08 million pounds per side, times two, means 3.6 million pounds per keel, if you only hit one keel at a time. Sheer and tensile are the same at that point, as you are not talking about a sharp edge. Still not wooden boat numbers, nor plastic boat numbers. To buckle, plate has to buckles both ways, inward and outward . Kind of hard to for it to buckle inwards, if they have 4500 lbs of lead cast inside.


Bryce


----------



## BryceGTX

mark2gmtrans said:


> The way that I am getting the KE figure for the impact on a solid substance ( Fukushima Debris and submerged cargo containers have been mentioned repeatedly as the potential impact sources) is a formula used to calculate the impact of a hull on a fixed and solid object such as a bridge. It figures in the weight of the boat, the forward momentum of the boat, the downward momentum of the boat, the weight of the water pushing along in concert with the boat and the duration of the impact as well as a few other little variables. I got the formula from an engineering text that is specifically focussed on just this type of impact on bridges by ships and boats.


And you say that reduces to this formula from your previous post?



> Impact Force(F): 2 m vt


It seems the above formula is missing something as it does not result in units of force. Now a divide sign between v and t would give units of force.



> Your math is good, but it is not going to excuse a point loaded keel impact on concrete from causing damage.


This whole discussion about impact damage fails miserably because no one is setting the conditions for the type of impact. I pointed out the conditions in my discussion. And any calculation about the merits of a steel boat must include a comparison to a wooden boat or fiberglass boat to be useful. My discussion applies to either type.

And of course a sailboat is radically different than any other boat in that up to 40% of the mass of the boat may be in the keel. This means weight distribution is going to be incredibly important in any discussion of keel impact.



> However for those interested the whole formula is here....
> 
> Guide Specifications and Commentary for Vessel Collision Design of Highway ... - Aashto - Google Books


Your discussion about the impact force might be more persuasive if you point out what particular page of the book supported your assertions. To suggest the readers have to read the whole book does not make sense.
Bryce


----------



## bobperry

Not sure what this math excersize is trying to prove. There are a lot of variables with groundings and collisions. I'll sit and wait until the variables are included if we are going to be realstic here. I think I'll have a long wait. We know steel is strong. But if you are just having fun with numbers carry on. I'm enjoying the back and forth.


----------



## blt2ski

Looksd like the same numbers that show a shoal draft lead is better than a deep draft iron from a righting movement issue, or a fin is not as good as a full at times. There is another thread with similar numbers that don't always include EVERY possible issues with in a certain fact. Seen it on other forums too, where some take numbers one way, make it work for them, but when someone shows that one should also include this variable in the numbers, they go haywire. 

LOTS of that going on in this thread now.

Marty


----------



## bobperry

"Looksd like the same numbers that show a shoal draft lead is better than a deep draft iron from a righting movement issue, or a fin is not as good as a full at times."

Lots of variables there Marty. I would not say either of those things without some qualifiers. Remember that stability is about more than just the ballast. You would have to do the comparison fairly using the same hull for each type of keel and ballast material. But then it wouldn't be very realistic.


----------



## Razcar

smackdaddy said:


> If you think Seeker is an "amateur" - you're kidding yourself. Oh...and..
> 
> 213. Used fiberglass boats are the best possible way to for the 99% to realize their dreams of cruising affordably.


Both wonderful opinions.


----------



## blt2ski

Bob, 
I would agree with you on that, ie where one has to have the same hull etc. BUT< one still sees folks trying to do numbers with out certain elements in the total equation, and things do not add up as they should in the end, to get to a point one wants to see vs how it will REALLY be!

marty


----------



## bobperry

Marty:
At some stage you have to make the numbers relevant to your design task. If you can't do that you are just playing with yourself.

But lots of people like numbers challenges for numbers sake and I can understand the fun of the mathematical quest and challenge. But after hours of discussion I don't want to look at a number and say, "Fine, now what?"

I almost always start a calculation with a guess. My guesses are pretty darn close and if my caluation is not close to my guess I have to look hard at the calculation. I've had a lot of practice guessing (see the "Mr. Perry" thread on the General Interest forum).


----------



## blt2ski

Bob, 

While I do not know boat numbers etc, I do understand to a degree other numbers, Yes, doing numbers to do numbers is not a good thing. On the other hand, to know the correct numbers for the task at hand.....that is good to know, or understand.

I had to build a block wall for a client a number of years ago, I know the wall block and design needed to be beyond the general spec. Bid the job and got it per the way the I thought it should be, based on other numbers added. Glad I did, as a few months later the nisqually quake hit. I had it designed then built it with some earthquake added material. Glad I did that. Meanwhile the $100K/30K lb motor home that was parked 3' away from teh wall was fine etc. If it had been built as one person bid it, the wall and MH would have been behind the yard in a collapsed heap!!

Another job, and engineer designed a wall using a different wall block than I typically use. Even got it passed the city inspectors and approved by there DOT folks. I looked at it and said it would not work, put in a different design and got it approved, and built accordingly. This wall had Metro buses running 5' from it, with a concrete sidewalk above it, the wall block in this situation was not designed to hold this type of both static and active load on it. Neither wall block design was in all honesty, but one had to know that one needed other reinforcement to make it work. 

Hence why I believe with all math issues one has to have ALL the factors built in, not just some of them!

Marty


----------



## outbound

Issue for me is you finally got your act together and are out long term cruising. Do you want to spend that time being concerned about hull maintenance, electrolysis and rust? If you brought a used boat regardless of review of the scantlings and the above discussion with it's delightful math do you have any idea of what's under you after a few years? Either you put years of sweat equality or the fruits of years of grinding out that paycheck into your boat. What's that boat worth when you hang up your spurs? What kind of shape is it going to be in? What will it take to keep it in that shape?
Brent can say what he wants but believe when you fall off that wave at hull speed or better on to the corner of a semi submerged container you're going to get a hole. Unless it's forward of a watertight bulkhead or you're in an ETAP you're in big trouble. For me the lack of performance and the maintenance concerns make steel problematic. Modern coatings are great. I'm 3 slips down from a 62' crewed trawleryacht as I write this. Gorgeous design in steel. I'm sure it was flamed zinced and has unobtainium epoxy up the whazoo. Painted white and pristine until you get real close and see the rust streaks.


----------



## Jeff_H

blt2ski said:


> Bob,
> I would agree with you on that, ie where one has to have the same hull etc. BUT< one still sees folks trying to do numbers with out certain elements in the total equation, and things do not add up as they should in the end, to get to a point one wants to see vs how it will REALLY be!
> 
> marty


Although we never actually ran the numbers the redesign of Wolf's boat began as an effort to show how wetted surface could be reduced and the vertical center of gravity lowered without changing the basic hull shape of the boat. Then things got out of hand......oh well. ..No matter what else anyone sez, I know I had a good time!

Jeff,
From the hook on Synergy listening to a shore side band play Mustang Sally right after In The Midnight Hour. Must be thier Wilson Pickett set.


----------



## bobperry

Are you doing the Buggaloo Jeff?

Take a video if you are.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

BryceGTX said:


> Your discussion about the impact force might be more persuasive if you point out what particular page of the book supported your assertions. To suggest the readers have to read the whole book does not make sense.
> Bryce


Bryce,

If you actually click on the link it takes you right to the page. The formula is right there. I am sorry that the other formula did not come out right when I posted it. It should have looked a lot more like F= m/vt but since I used a math code that this forum does not accept it looked right in my typing it up, but did not translate. Which is also why I have not posted the other formula here either, just the link.

I was going to write some other stuff here, but in all honesty I just decided to let it go. If you would like to build BS boats in your backyard knock yourself out. Personally I will take one of Bob's over BS any day and twice on Sunday.


----------



## aeventyr60

mark2gmtrans said:


> Bryce,
> 
> If you actually click on the link it takes you right to the page. The formula is right there. I am sorry that the other formula did not come out right when I posted it. It should have looked a lot more like F= m/vt but since I used a math code that this forum does not accept it looked right in my typing it up, but did not translate. Which is also why I have not posted the other formula here either, just the link.
> 
> I was going to write some other stuff here, but in all honesty I just decided to let it go. If you would like to build BS boats in your backyard knock yourself out. Personally I will take one of Bob's over BS any day and twice on Sunday.


So, What are you waiting for? Sounds a bit like all hat and no cows to me.


----------



## bobperry

I really want a cow. I live in dairy farm country and I drive by dairy farms every day. I want some cows. I just don't want to have to do much shovelling. I have the hat already.
I even drive by a Bison farm. Now those are some serious cows.


----------



## SloopJonB

My dad was an agro scientist who started out working at a dairy. I once mentioned to him that if I was ever to be a farmer, the only thing I'd want was a dairy farm - lots of cows (I'd have Jerseys) and all that great stainless equipment and so forth.

He told me that owning a dairy farm was the closest thing to legal slavery that still existed - you HAVE to be there twice a day to milk them - NO days off, Ever, NO vacations, Ever, NO rest, Ever.

Oh well - I always liked boats better anyway.

As to bison - my first summer job was at the old Okanagan game farm. They had several female bison and one bull - that thing set a new standard for huge - I'm over 6' and I couldn't see over his shoulder. Their enclosure used telephone poles for fence posts and once he snapped one just by scratching against it.

Seeing one of those gigantic herds on the move 150 years ago must have been absolutely awesome & terrifying. To think that the First Nations hunted them with spears.....


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
Yeah I know. I'm just dreaming. Te Bison farm I drive by has, I think, one bull. He's as big as an outbuilding. He mostly sits under a tree. I think I know what he does the rest of the time. He can blot out the sun. I'd like to know what he has to say.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

bobperry said:


> I really want a cow. I live in dairy farm country and I drive by dairy farms every day. I want some cows. I just don't want to have to do much shovelling. I have the hat already.
> I even drive by a Bison farm. Now those are some serious cows.


My grandfather used to tell about when he was a child and his parents had died how he went to live with an uncle on a dairy farm. When he was in the third grade they made him start milking the cows, and he was allowed to go to school only after getting all the work done, he dropped out of school later that year.

He learned to read while on an LST in WWII in the Pacific, he landed at Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal, Saipan, and many others. On his return from the war he went back to work at US Steel, where he later became the supervisor for all of the maintenance crews for all the US Steel plants in the Birmingham/Bessemer Alabama area. He lost a leg on the job there, in an accident caused by someone who was drinking on the job, but a year later he was back at work and retired at age 70. He once told me that working in the dairy was the hardest thing he had ever done, that said a lot coming from someone who had done so many hard things.

I chased cows for a living as a kid, in the summers and later full time for a year, it was cold, hard, nasty work, but it was honest work and it gave me a very different outlook on life. I certainly do not want any cattle these days that are not cut down to a size that fits on the plate, I prefer my cows medium rare.

I do not think that there are many people still alive who truly know what it was like to work cattle on a dairy back around 1900, but the ones of us who know the ones who did do it know that it made for one tough cowboy. It is too bad that we really do not have too many of the old family farms anymore, but I guess the kids that would be working on them are probably glad.


----------



## outbound

Did Sturgis on the bike a few years back. Going through Custer a chap on a full dresser got to close to a bison. Bike and him were tossed in to the air. Bike landed on him. He died. No thanks on bison farming. Don't want to be near anything that big and stupid. Now a couple of alpacas who can take care of themselves and won't kill me when I harvest their wool maybe but even growing beef seems like real work. Did a short stint helping out on a diary co-op in upstate NY. No thanks on that either.


----------



## rgp

Disclaimer: I own a steel boat
I'm not about to get into a debate about which is better, I'll just describe my experience. As wise person told me the best boat is the one that when you look at it from your dinghy you smile.
I'm on my second steel boat, both Waterlines. 
The previous owner of the first boat had hit a whale, it bent the rudder shaft and broke the skeg free of the boat. He made it back to port without any water in the boat. Fast forward a couple of years, I've bought the boat, sailed it from San Francisco to the Puget Sound, and brought it back to Waterline for a check up. They found some cracks in the plating around the rudder post, not seen or fixed after the whale. Fast forward again, a couple of months, new rudder skeg and plating, thinner wallet and all is good. I think you'll agree after looking at the photos that this would have sent most boats to the bottom.
In the six years I've owned the boats I haven't done any more preventive maintained then my fellow harbour mates, those that keep their boats looking good.
Waterline flame zincs above the waterline. On the first boat I had some exposed steel in the cockpit coaming for two years before fixing it, from a poorly lead furling line, not a speck of rust.
In a bad winter storm two years ago a fender popped which allowed the boat to pound steel to the dock for 36 hours before it was fixed. It rubbed the paint off a 25*50 cm area. I used the boat most of the next summer before fixing it, again no rust, just some prep work and paint and all is good as new. I don't know how other boats would have fared but my steel boat did very well.


----------



## SloopJonB

How was the whale?


----------



## JomsViking

rgp said:


> Disclaimer: I own a steel boat
> I'm not about to get into a debate about which is better, I'll just describe my experience. As wise person told me the best boat is the one that when you look at it from your dinghy you smile.
> I'm on my second steel boat, both Waterlines.
> The previous owner of the first boat had hit a whale, it bent the rudder shaft and broke the skeg free of the boat. He made it back to port without any water in the boat. Fast forward a couple of years, I've bought the boat, sailed it from San Francisco to the Puget Sound, and brought it back to Waterline for a check up. They found some cracks in the plating around the rudder post, not seen or fixed after the whale. Fast forward again, a couple of months, new rudder skeg and plating, thinner wallet and all is good. I think you'll agree after looking at the photos that this would have sent most boats to the bottom.


Looks somewhat like the damage that a GRP Phantom 42 had when hitting a rock going at hull speed, except only the rudder stock was damaged 

Point being that no hull material is "holing-proof" - had it been a bigger whale or had the previous owner been going faster, would your boat have been holed then? (Glad it didn't).


----------



## outbound

Dealer I bought my current boat from also sells Waterline. Impeccably constructed steel boats with aesthetically gorgeous interiors. At 1m up for new not cheap. I was referring to the BS boats not yours or Puffins or the like. Sir I wish wish you joy- you have a very fine vessel. As Bob said shows what can be done in steel.


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## bobperry

I agree with Out. Waterlines are a far cry from BS boats. The Waterlines I have looked at are beautiful boats.


----------



## bobperry

BS is missing in action. He probably can't stand it that this is the weekend of the Perry Rendezvous where 50 of my boats will gather for a big party. On the other hand maybe he's headed down here in his BS boat. I would really, truly like to meet him on the dock.
I can only dream.


----------



## blt2ski

Bob,

What time do you get to PL friday? I would luv to come, but am doing a "race" saturday all day. But should be up that way going to and from PT. I'm sure you leave ludlow reasonably early sunday. 

Marty


----------



## jak3b

bobperry said:


> BS is missing in action. He probably can't stand it that this is the weekend of the Perry Rendezvous where 50 of my boats will gather for a big party. On the other hand maybe he's headed down here in his BS boat. I would really, truly like to meet him on the dock.
> I can only dream.


Just look for a boat bouncing off the ledges and hitting logs


----------



## mark2gmtrans

jak3b said:


> Just look for a boat bouncing off the ledges and hitting logs


If you have a reef there close by his boat will be the one grinding and gyrating on it like a stripper on a pole....

In fact this might be a BS boat, but in the end they took it out and put it out of its misery, in fact it is quickly becoming a reef for other BS boats to grind on....






Seems that this one must not have been a real BS boat, after all the damage was so great they towed it out to sea and scuttled it.


----------



## bobperry

Marty:
I'm heading up to PL today with Ruby. It will be a quiet day. I'll be there all day Friday. I have rented the Pintail House for the weekend. It's the nice house at the far western end of the marina parking lot. I might be wandering the docks. I might be at the house. Yoiu never know. I'm a ramblin' kind of guy. I'll be easy spot. I'm the extremely good looking guy with grey hair and a black and white Portuguese Water Dog.


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## krisscross

One of Brent's steel boats for sale: 1995 Custom steel Brent Swain 31 sailboat for sale in Outside United States
I like it.


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## smackdaddy

krisscross said:


> One of Brent's steel boats for sale: 1995 Custom steel Brent Swain 31 sailboat for sale in Outside United States
> I like it.


I actually agree. It's a pretty nice boat - and at $21K, not outrageously over-priced like some of the others I've seen (especially considering the gear listed).

If one wanted a steeler - this one might not be too bad.


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## mark2gmtrans

smackdaddy said:


> I actually agree. It's a pretty nice boat - and at $21K, not outrageously over-priced like some of the others I've seen (especially considering the gear listed).
> 
> If one wanted a steeler - this one might not be too bad.


This one would be worth the price, mostly because it has at least that much value in electronics and other equipment, worst case whoever gets it will have plenty of radio and navigation equipment...Hopefully enough to keep it from following its instincts to grind on reefs and run into cargo ships.


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## Brent Swain

Another huge advantage of steel is you get to eliminate the heat exchanger, the salt water pump ,the thru hulls for cooling water, and the related plumbing. You get to eliminate the raw water strainer and any chance of your engines cooling system being plugged by sea weeds and marine growth. You simply turn a portion of your hull into a cooling tank. Aluminium works even better ,as it transfers heat as quickly as anything. One diesel mechanic, who works on yachts, was quoted as saying "If everyone went for keel cooling and dry exhaust, we mechanics would all be out of work."


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## aeventyr60

Dry stack exhaust makes you sound like the African Queen. Hold on to yer Gin matey!


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## tdw

bobperry said:


> Marty:
> I'm heading up to PL today with Ruby. It will be a quiet day. I'll be there all day Friday. I have rented the Pintail House for the weekend. It's the nice house at the far western end of the marina parking lot. I might be wandering the docks. I might be at the house. Yoiu never know. I'm a ramblin' kind of guy. I'll be easy spot. I'm the extremely good looking guy with grey hair and a black and white Portuguese Water Dog.


Surely BP you meant to type "I'm the rambling old grey hair with the good looking PWD".


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> One diesel mechanic, who works on yachts, was quoted as saying "If everyone went for keel cooling and dry exhaust, we mechanics would all be out of work."


That guy's obviously a dope. Sure, cooling is one of them, but here are SO many other things that can go wrong with a diesel.


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## blt2ski

Bob, At this time, I do not have to head to PT, only from bremerton to poulsbo then south to winslow, then a ferry ride back to seattle......BUT, who knows what will happen int he AM!

Marty


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> That guy's obviously a dope. Sure, cooling is one of them, but here are SO many other things that can go wrong with a diesel.


Over 60% of marine diesel engine failures come from water cooling, heat exchangers and wet exhausts being the cause of most of them. Then you could try Smacks proposed solution; assuming that if you don't try to avoid problems ,they simply wont happen.
Friends, who went thru two engines since 98, caused by condensation from a wet exhaust corroding the valves, have gone for a dry exhaust, as have many others I know, after serious engine damage caused by wet exhausts.
I have been using a dry exhaust for nearly 40 years , no problems. Commercial boat operators laugh at the foolishness of yachties pumping sea water into their exhausts.


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## Brent Swain

rgp said:


> Disclaimer: I own a steel boat
> I'm not about to get into a debate about which is better, I'll just describe my experience. As wise person told me the best boat is the one that when you look at it from your dinghy you smile.
> I'm on my second steel boat, both Waterlines.
> The previous owner of the first boat had hit a whale, it bent the rudder shaft and broke the skeg free of the boat. He made it back to port without any water in the boat. Fast forward a couple of years, I've bought the boat, sailed it from San Francisco to the Puget Sound, and brought it back to Waterline for a check up. They found some cracks in the plating around the rudder post, not seen or fixed after the whale. Fast forward again, a couple of months, new rudder skeg and plating, thinner wallet and all is good. I think you'll agree after looking at the photos that this would have sent most boats to the bottom.
> In the six years I've owned the boats I haven't done any more preventive maintained then my fellow harbour mates, those that keep their boats looking good.
> Waterline flame zincs above the waterline. On the first boat I had some exposed steel in the cockpit coaming for two years before fixing it, from a poorly lead furling line, not a speck of rust.
> In a bad winter storm two years ago a fender popped which allowed the boat to pound steel to the dock for 36 hours before it was fixed. It rubbed the paint off a 25*50 cm area. I used the boat most of the next summer before fixing it, again no rust, just some prep work and paint and all is good as new. I don't know how other boats would have fared but my steel boat did very well.


Good post.! Waterline skegs are considerably lighter than mine , which have over 4 ft of attachment to the hull, and are 3/16th plate, with plenty of backup inside. I also put a half inch plate gusset ahead of that, carrying the weight another 2 ft in the case of a twin keeler, and on to the keel in the case of a single keeler , giving it over 18 feet of longitudinal support from a front on impact. You could drastically increase the front on impact strength of a Waterline boat, by welding such a gusset in front of the skeg. My skeg is my engine keel cooler.
Failures of high aspect skegs are far too common. One way to get a huge increase in strength is to run the skeg right thru, into the cockpit floor, giving it two point support. Much longer, low aspect skegs dont need this. 
Flame spraying is a good way to eliminate rust spots, permanently. When I priced flame spraying, I found the cost of doing a hull and decks was the same as the cost of buying the equipment . I told friends building boats in Victoria, that they could chip in and buy the equipment for less than having it done. They did that, and all flame sprayed their boats for far less than having it done by a commercial sprayer. The guy who bought them out did his 50 footer in 92, and hasn't seen a speck of rust since , now cruising the South Pacific. He did some research, and found the US navy concluded that a mixture of aluminium- zinc was the most effective .
I flame sprayed one boat, for a guy who bought the equipment used, for a fraction the new cost. I found that the spray goes on clean, like fine sandpaper at first, with little heat build up on the plate. As the tip clogs up, the spray starts to spatter, and it gets hotter. At the first sign of this, it is time to clean the tip again, by taking it apart and running a trip cleaner thru the tiny holes. If you don't do this frequently, the spray doesn't bond well to the steel. 
That was with oxy acetylene equipment. Perhaps that is why Waterline Yachts quit using flame spray. Ed said they had problems with it.The US navy was dumping all their oxy acetylene equipment, for electric arc type, which should have no such problems. Their oxy acetylene equipment should be cheaply available in surplus stores. You go thru a lot of oxy acetylene. Electric would be much cheaper to use, with better results.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> BS is missing in action. He probably can't stand it that this is the weekend of the Perry Rendezvous where 50 of my boats will gather for a big party. On the other hand maybe he's headed down here in his BS boat. I would really, truly like to meet him on the dock.
> I can only dream.


Just spent a week cruising with a friend around Cortes island ., no internet access in remote lakes ,but great swimming , fishing and hiking. I don't have much interest in the crowded south this time of year, so I'm up here well into the fall, when the guys who have to go back to work, to pay for their super expensive waterline yachts, have long gone back to work. I remain where they work all year to spend a couple of weeks at.I can listen to how they are enjoying that super paint and bondo job, by listening to the traffic report in the morning ,before I go back to sleep for another hour. In some falls , I have swam comfortably in the lakes here into mid October . Sure hope we have another one of those falls . Waterline yachts are the few well built commercially made steel boats available ( at a huge price) . In practical terms, they have absolutely no advantage over mine, and some disadvantages . As for aesthetics, anyone can check out the photos in the origamiboats site and judge for themselves. You wont find many 18 inch side decks or Bobs , style over substance, "decorative "mini stanchions there
I remember walking into Waterline Yachts and introducing myself . Ed said "Great! can I get your email address ? If anyone complains about my prices , I will send them to you."
I resisted the urge to reply "If anyone complains about my prices , I will send them to you."


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## Brent Swain

aeventyr60 said:


> Dry stack exhaust makes you sound like the African Queen. Hold on to yer Gin matey!


I run all mine out below the waterline, reducing the noise to a low gurgle.


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## Brent Swain

krisscross said:


> One of Brent's steel boats for sale: 1995 Custom steel Brent Swain 31 sailboat for sale in Outside United States
> I like it.


That's a hell of a good deal. She was well built and well epoxied inside and out. She has cruised extensively in the Carribean and on to the Galapagos. Adding a wheelhouse to her would not be all that difficult


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> BS is missing in action. He probably can't stand it that this is the weekend of the Perry Rendezvous where 50 of my boats will gather for a big party. On the other hand maybe he's headed down here in his BS boat. I would really, truly like to meet him on the dock.
> I can only dream.


Bob, I have no interest in setting foot in the US ( Prison land). I have a much better cruising ground, which I cruise freely, requiring permission from no one.


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Issue for me is you finally got your act together and are out long term cruising. Do you want to spend that time being concerned about hull maintenance, electrolysis and rust? If you brought a used boat regardless of review of the scantlings and the above discussion with it's delightful math do you have any idea of what's under you after a few years? Either you put years of sweat equality or the fruits of years of grinding out that paycheck into your boat. What's that boat worth when you hang up your spurs? What kind of shape is it going to be in? What will it take to keep it in that shape?
> Brent can say what he wants but believe when you fall off that wave at hull speed or better on to the corner of a semi submerged container you're going to get a hole. Unless it's forward of a watertight bulkhead or you're in an ETAP you're in big trouble. For me the lack of performance and the maintenance concerns make steel problematic. Modern coatings are great. I'm 3 slips down from a 62' crewed trawleryacht as I write this. Gorgeous design in steel. I'm sure it was flamed zinced and has unobtainium epoxy up the whazoo. Painted white and pristine until you get real close and see the rust streaks.


You are not going to fall off a wave faster than hitting a steel barge at 6 knots, which my boats have done with impunity. My boat is 29 years old with her original paint job , in excellent shape. 
It takes a tiny amount of steel to make a rust streak, or a huge amount of rust. Seconds with muriatic acid eliminates them quickly.


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## Brent Swain

Personal Attack removed per forum rules. Jeff_H SailNet moderator


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## mark2gmtrans

Personal Attack removed per forum rules. Jeff_H SailNet moderator

This is one of Bob's Norseman 447's done in aluminum.










This is also a Bob Perry design in steel.


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## krisscross

mark2gmtrans said:


> Your boats are freaking ugly, slow, unsafe floating turds.


Mark, normally I enjoy your posts, but this one has just harshed my morning mellow...
Brent's boats apparently do appeal to some people because he has sold quite a few of them, and collectively they have logged hundreds of thousands of miles in waters all over the world. I would not mind owning one of them as I do like bilge keel boats and steel. I have a lot of respect for Brent as a designer and sailor - compared to him, I know squat. Obviously Bob Perry is a legend, and I would not get in the middle of these two guys talking shop.


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## smackdaddy

krisscross said:


> Mark, normally I enjoy your posts, but this one has just harshed my morning mellow...
> Brent's boats apparently do appeal to some people because he has sold quite a few of them, and collectively they have logged hundreds of thousands of miles in waters all over the world. I would not mind owning one of them as I do like bilge keel boats and steel. I have a lot of respect for *Brent as a designer* and sailor - compared to him, I know squat. Obviously Bob Perry is a legend, and I would not get in the middle of these two guys talking shop.


Generally I agree with you kc. I personally don't think Brent's boats are "pretty", but they are undoubtedly functional and relatively durable.

The only part of your statement that I would challenge is the bold part. I see very little that points to Brent as a "designer" in any context that would include Bob.

Brent is a _builder_. He has some very good, practical ideas on how to build stuff. But I don't think he is a "designer" any more than a carpenter is an architect. I think that is very evident in his arguments with Bob. Further, I think this "designer" moniker that Brent seems to want to assume is actually the source of a lot of the issues being argued. It just doesn't fit Brent, and it _is_ an important distinction.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a good builder. But there's no reason to put a designer label where it's not appropriate.


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## krisscross

Perhaps that is true and I stand corrected - I have not been following this discussion in every detail and I'm sure I missed stuff. 
I thought Brent has not only been building these boats but also designing them. IMO if you build off someone else's plans, you are a builder, but if you design and build from scratch, you can claim to be a designer as well.


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## bljones

bobperry said:


> Mark:
> I think that was an unfair atttack on BS. He obviously knows steel and working with steel. Everyone mucks in here and contributes what they can. BS contributed to the discussion.


Fixed it for you, Bob, in light of the Texan apparently deciding it was safe to fire at your target of choice.


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## bobperry

Marty:
You missed a great party. We had around 40 boats represented and present. Some people drive to the Rendezvous. One guy drove from Montana. The food was great and the music was good and the party went well into the night. Our "guest star" this year was Bob Berg, the real "Baba". I think we had one of each of the Baba's there including the pilot house 40 and a rare Baba 40 ketch. WILD HORSES was there so we had one alu boat at the Rendezvous but no steel boats. One of my newest custom design clients showed up with his wife and had a great time talking to the owners of my boats. I know BS thinks they are "foolish yachties' but many of them have done some serious passage making and are proud of their boats. We had an Islander 28 there that had attended the very first Rendevous over 30 years ago. We even had people show up who had previously owned a Perry boat but now they just come for the party. All in all it was a very satisfying weekend for me and my family including Violet who enjoyed herself.


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## jorgenl

krisscross said:


> IMO if you build off someone else's plans, you are a builder, but if you design and build from scratch, you can claim to be a designer as well.


I can draw a plan for a house but that does not make me an architect.


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## smackdaddy

krisscross said:


> Perhaps that is true and I stand corrected - I have not been following this discussion in every detail and I'm sure I missed stuff.
> I thought Brent has not only been building these boats but also designing them. IMO if you build off someone else's plans, you are a builder, but if you design and build from scratch, you can claim to be a designer as well.


I suppose it can become a game of semantics. But as an ex-architect, I've always believed that real design should drive the build process...not vice-versa.

Do you know if Brent invented the origami method? (Honest question.) If he did, that would lend credence to the title, though I still would be a little skeptical due to the severe limitations the process puts on the design. But, again, that's just me.

In any case, here's one of the best pieces of advice anyone can take away from these debates (from Alex Christie's site: Home - Origamiboats: The Art of Frameless Steel Boatbuilding)



> Read the experiences of others who have built these boats and sailed them on extended voyages, because honestly you need to see concrete examples of other people building and using these boats to believe in the concept. Don't just take the word of one person raving on his own website about it, do some solid research. The internet is full of people selling ideas that don't work, or ideas which require an engineering degree to sort out. Building a boat is a big investment, and no one makes any kind of investment without looking at all the angles.


PS - Here is a very good discussion that focuses a bit on the distinction. It starts out with this statement that I think sums up Brent's position very accurately:



> Brent Swain, a nomadic sailor of the BC coast, is *a well known advocate and practitioner of this method of hull building* which is popular along the BC coast of Canada and some are built in the PNW as well. Others have used this method in other countries and it seems to produce a hull in some percentage less man-hours than more traditional methods of framing.


http://www.metalboatbuilding.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=71


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## bobperry

Mark:
Thanks for posting that pic of the alu Norseman. That guy was a real artist in alu. He was one of the most skilled "home builders" I have ever worked with. The steel boat was built by Amazon and has many miles on it. But it is a true 
"yacht" and a far cry from the BS boats aesthetically.

We live on a beach where all the new houses are custom builds. Almost all of these are custom designs. Ours is a custom design by Chuck Schiff. I did all the interior details but I do not call myself "the designer" of my home. When I talk to other beach residents with sustom homes I often here,"I designed it." Then I ask, "Did you do the drawings?" Typically they say no but they did some sketches. If they didn't do the working drawings then I would not soncider them the designer of their house.

So is BS a designer? If he does his won drawings and builds to those drawings then I would call him the "designer" and the builder obviously. He must not be very proud of his drawings as I have never seen any posted here. My drawings are works of art and many, many boats have been built from them and are currently being built from them. I post my drawings with pride and challenge anyone calling themselves a "yacht designer" to post better drawings. In my office the design process is taken very seriously. I want the quality of the drawings to reflect the quality of the design work AND the quality I expect in the finished product.


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## bljones

mark2gmtrans said:


> ...and everyone ...


Sorry, Tex, but I can represent myself, thanks. Maybe I missed the memo, but I don't think anyone elected you spokesman for "everyone."


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## SloopJonB

krisscross said:


> Mark, normally I enjoy your posts, but this one has just harshed my morning mellow...
> Brent's boats apparently do appeal to some people because he has sold quite a few of them, and collectively they have logged hundreds of thousands of miles in waters all over the world. I would not mind owning one of them as I do like bilge keel boats and steel. I have a lot of respect for Brent as a designer and sailor - compared to him, I know squat. Obviously Bob Perry is a legend, and I would not get in the middle of these two guys talking shop.


It sounds like Tex missed his morning Prozac yet again.


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## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> ...
> 
> The only part of your statement that I would challenge is the bold part. I see very little that points to Brent as a "designer" in any context that would include Bob.
> 
> Brent is a _builder_. He has some very good, practical ideas on how to build stuff. But I don't think he is a "designer" any more than a carpenter is an architect. I think that is very evident in his arguments with Bob. Further, I think this "designer" moniker that Brent seems to want to assume is actually the source of a lot of the issues being argued. It just doesn't fit Brent, and it _is_ an important distinction.
> 
> There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a good builder. But there's no reason to put a designer label where it's not appropriate.


I don't get your point. A sailboat is a complex machine you just cannot build it without knowing what you are doing. If Brent are doing the boats creating them from the beginning (hull, keel, ruder and rig) according to their own ideas then he is the designer of the boats he is building. For many time some of the best designers relied more in boat models and practical knowledge than on paper design. Then they continued to use wood hull models and paper designs and today they use CAD and complex programs to simulate the boat behavior on the water and fine tune the design.

I would not say that a designer that still relies mostly in paper designs and hull models is not a boat designer the same way I don't see how you say that Brent is not the designer of his boats even if he does not use a lot of drawings to design his boats. They all are designers since they all are creating their own boats.

Brent boats have the reputation to be tough, to sail relatively well if we take into account the price and the simplicity of building process.

Of course not all designers have the same status as boat designers and very few can be named as having been at the vanguard of yacht design and having contributed to real innovations and improvements on the Art. I am not sure if the Origami technique would be included as an innovation but I have no doubt that it contributes to produce less expensive sailboats, even if not as performant as others much more expensive to build.

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski

I'd have to agree that BS is a designer too. Now comes the how skilled vs others. Some other things that can get in the way of what one wants to say is a sliding scale of designers......well that can get into a deep disCUSSion shall we say.........like a WELL!

Like myself, I do have a landscape design degree. I can not legally call myself an architect, but in my field, ANYONE< can call themself a designer, even if they do not have any formal training at a school. Which frankly I do find a bit annoying.......but that is another story. 

As far as teh difference between BS and BP, not sure if BP with the schooling etc he has can call himself an architect or not, but at least in my field, he would be if he has a 4 yr degree, with having taken a state test, and some in house training etc. I do not see that BS has this style of training per say. 

I've at least described how "I" look at this issue from the field I have trained in.

Marty


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## bobperry

Sure, anyone can be a "designer" and just as easy there can be "good designers" and 'bad designers". Just writing "designer" next to your name does not make you a good designer. I don't give a rat's patooty what you call me. I like Bob. I am a classical music fan so "Maestro" is fun and flattering. I am recognized by my peers as a good designer and that's all that matters to me. My designs speak for themselves and they speak loudly and often. Being surrounded, like I was this weekend, by a marina full of happy owners is prooof that I have done my job well. I don't believe writing something after your name proves anything other than you can write.


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## tommays

Well

IMHP there are three

Design

Build

Engineering

And i believe this is were it runs off the track as i do a lot of design and build BUT depending on what it is i am building i have fairly limited engineering skills 

For example when i hang a new crane up in the building i have to pay a PE to sign off that the existing beams will live with the new load









One of things that makes it possible for me to design and build a bicycle is that the tubes are sold pre=engineered as sets for specific uses and rider weights



I also build some fancy machine controls that tell why there not running qand even send me a email when there unhappy BUT you sure as heck could not use one on and elevator or traffic single


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## bobperry

Tom:
I have used Ivan Erdevicki for almost all my engineering for about ten years. He lives in Vancouver part of the time and his home country of Monte ***** most of the time. Ivan, pronounced "Eeee-von" is a quality guy and a very clever designer himself, an ex-professional water polo player. You should visit his web site. He has done military boats for the Israeli navy. I have also work recently with Tim Nolan and Jim Franken from Port townsend on the Sliver Project. I draw the structure I want and how I want things shaped and the engineer tells me how much laminate to use where. It's a good way to work.

I had a tun in four years ago with the Washington State Board of Licensing. They sent me a terse letter saying that I did not have the qualifications to do what I was doing. I thought, "****ski! Now you tell me." Then I sat down and wrote them a concise and equally terse reply outlining what I had been doing for the past 35 years. I got a very nice letter back that said, basically, "Never mind." I felt pretty good about that.


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## Classic30

bobperry said:


> Sure, anyone can be a "designer" and just as easy there can be "good designers" and 'bad designers". Just writing "designer" next to your name does not make you a good designer. I don't give a rat's patooty what you call me. I like Bob. I am a classical music fan so "Maestro" is fun and flattering. I am recognized by my peers as a good designer and that's all that matters to me. My designs speak for themselves and they speak loudly and often. Being surrounded, like I was this weekend, by a marina full of happy owners is prooof that I have done my job well. I don't believe writing something after your name proves anything other than you can write.


Bob, it ain't all about you.

AIUI, to call yourself a "Professional Engineer" in most (all?) countries you need to not only have trained as one but also be *registered* with the local Engineering board, whoever that might be. Likewise, to call yourself a "Naval Architect" you need to be a paid-up member of the Institute of Naval Architecture (in the US) or the R.I.N.A. (in the UK) or similar institutions in other countries, and there's a number reasons for doing this:


It advertises that you are willing to be accountable to your industry peers in the work that you do,
It means you commit to update yourself in the latest methods and techniques as passed down by that Institute,
It gives your clients the satisfaction of knowing there is an authority they can go to when something you put on paper heads to the bottom, and
It gives you some measure of protection when the unthinkable happens..
So, you're right: writing "Designer" or even "Naval Architect" after your name doesn't mean you are a "good designer" - or a "bad designer" either - but being able to legitimately advertise the fact means *your clients *should feel more comfortable about forking out mountains of $$$ for your work since they are better protected against something going wrong. ..and in some cases (like the Engineers one) it's required by law.

Hope that helps.


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## bobperry

No Hart:
That doesn't help much. Technically you are correct but you don't address the "some can and some can't regardless of initials after the name issue and it's huge.

I once had a U of Mich graduate naval architect come and apply for a job in my office. He already had business cards printed out saying he was a naval architect. He was a nice guy so I thought I'd give him a try. I sat him down at a drawing board and watched for 2.5 days while he struggled mightily and got nowhere with the re-design of a Tayana 37 interior. I was patient but I finally had to saty to him, "You can't do it can you?" and he said no he coudn't. But he was a licensed naval architect. He just couldn't design a boat. Want more stories like that? I have a bunch.

Hartley: This weekend at times it seemed to be all about me and I enjoyed it. I am very comfortable in that environment that I created. I do my best to try to make it all about the boat owners. It's very simple, it's about the boats and their owners. I think we strike a decent balance. From time to time a little idolitry creeps into it but my wife is always there and as she once said to me, "I think I am going to throw up."

A man once said to me, "Imagine you had never lived. Now look around this harbor and think of what changes that would have meant to these people."


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## Classic30

bobperry said:


> No Hart:
> That doesn't help much. Technically you are correct but you don't address the "some can and some can't regardless of initials after the name issue and it's huge.
> 
> I once had a U of Mich graduate naval architect come and apply for a job in my office. He already had business cards printed out saying he was a naval architect. He was a nice guy so I thought I'd give him a try. I sat him down at a drawing board and watched for 2.5 days while he struggled mightily and got nowhere with the re-design of a Tayana 37 interior. I was patient but I finally had to saty to him, "You can't do it can you?" and he said no he coudn't. But he was a licensed naval architect. He just couldn't design a boat. Want more stories like that? I have a bunch.


Bob, sorry if you think I'm surprised - 'cause I'm not. I, personally, could give you a bunch of very similar stories about engineering graduates.

{RANT} What you speak of comes down to two things: (a) education and (b) experience - and with the demise of industry apprenticeships and cadetships, etc. etc. that's what remains: Highly-qualified inexperience. And it ain't just the "yacht designing" industry that is having those issues - it's in engineering, health, law, accountancy and a host of other professions as well. That's the world we live in - and "Institutes" world-wide have done themselves a disservice by kowtowing to the populists and allowing it to get that bad. 
** /RANT}

Anyway, enough of the doom and gloom:

If you're interested, the way I deal with it is to hire raw, green, graduates straight out of Uni (untainted by the workplace, you might say), test their aptitude for the task, put their qualifications on the shelf (or the wastepaper basket, if more appropriate) and set them to work for a year or so under somebody experienced - an "unofficial cadetship", if you will. That takes time and costs $$ and you get no thanks for it - but it works. 



bobperry said:


> Hartley: This weekend at times it seemed to be all about me and I enjoyed it. I am very comfortable in that environment that I created. I do my best to try to make it all about the boat owners. It's very simple, it's about the boats and their owners. I think we strike a decent balance. From time to time a little idolitry creeps into it but my wife is always there and as she once said to me, "I think I am going to throw up."
> 
> A man once said to me, "Imagine you had never lived. Now look around this harbor and think of what changes that would have meant to these people."


I'm really glad that the weekend was a success, Bob - you deserve it! You are also very fortunate to have a wife who can gently cap your ego when required.. many don't and have destroyed their own reputation in the process.

By all means, keep doing what you're doing.. but if you wrote to the relevant Institute I, for one, wouldn't be surprised in the least if they offered you an Honorary Membership right away, simply based on your *demonstrated* qualifications from The School Of Hard Knocks. Something else to decorate the mantelpiece.


----------



## blt2ski

Cam,

I've noticed the same thing. BUT, what is also harder currently on a local level, is MANY places are wanting one to have 2-5 yrs experience, and for MANY like one of my daughters trying to get a job out of college, getting that experience is hard, as no one wants to hire them! Danged if one does sometimes, danged if you do!

Locally here where BP and I am, your comments re the how you get to be an engineer/architect etc seems to be equal in how you go about it.

marty


----------



## Classic30

blt2ski said:


> Cam,
> 
> I've noticed the same thing. BUT, what is also harder currently on a local level, is MANY places are wanting one to have 2-5 yrs experience, and for MANY like one of my daughters trying to get a job out of college, getting that experience is hard, as no one wants to hire them! Danged if one does sometimes, danged if you do!


Hi Marty, yeah, it's no different over here.

What you're seeing in "wanting 2-5yrs experience" is companies not willing to pay the high cost/risk of the "cadetship" I mentioned above and hoping (not unreasonably) to pick up someone already "pre-trained" by someone else! Fact is, with big business not offering cadetships like they used to, if it takes 2yrs to train someone green for the job, then the only available candidates that will fit their "2-5" position will be those who didn't like their last job... and so the cycle continues.

Anyway: Knowing full well that the company in question will have to do some level of "re-training" to the new environment no matter who they get, IMHO, it's a rough ride (think, deep end of the swimming pool) but the way to approach these people is for your daughter to apply anyway, and at the interview confess her inexperience, countered by a willingness to learn quickly on the job and a willingness to commence on reduced pay until fully trained (for, say, a year, with a performance review at the end of the year).

That should perk the prospective employer's interest because what they really want, but haven't asked for, is someone who (a) knows what they're doing (is no idiot) and is willing to learn fast (aptitude) and (b) isn't going to cost them a fortune to re-train (the cost), only to have them leave a year later (the risk). It's a 2-way street.

Try that. 

..with apologies for adding to the significant thread drift.


----------



## blt2ski

Cam,

I do agree that is what has to happen, re with new recruits to a degree. I've had a few that in reality, needed more than the paper work showed. I've even been there done that at times with new products I need to install etc. Its something we all need to know, ie we all have to learn it at some point in time, include the almighty BP! much less us nobody's!LOLOL

marty


----------



## mark2gmtrans

If I came hard at BS it is because he seems to be saying, often, that Bob, who has literally thousands of boats on the water is unqualified to design a steel boat. Bob has done boats in every material available, or Bob's boats have been done in them, whichever you want to call it, I even found one very nice looking Bob Perry design in ferrocement. BS is probably an alright guy, in person, just like most of us, the things we type are easy to take as being more harsh than we mean them to be. Me personally, I get a lot of grief from certain elitists for being from Texas, but I just figure it is because they need someone to pick on to make them feel better and I generally let it go.

BS boats could be okay boats, with a lot of help, but since Brent seems intent on turning off people who truly could help him, he gets little to none. Bob does not need me to take up for him, I just like his designs. I think they are very nice, and from the ones I have seen in person they are very well laid out, from the few photos of the BS boats I have seen only one so far has been anywhere near okay looking. I have to say that they do look more or less sturdy, but just not very pretty. I like beautiful boats, which is why I like some of Bob's designs more than others, and Bob probably does as well. I also really like most of Paul Kettenburg's designs, a lot of Roger Long's, and many others, especially the ones done in wood. It is my right to like what I like, and you each have the same right, and like it or not, more people have liked Bob's boats than those of Brent, and since people seem to have voted in an overwhelming way with their wallets on that issue, I would say BS could learn a lot if he were not so adamant that his way is the only way.

We all tend to do that from time to time, myself included, but I have done more listening and paying attention than I have done my way or not at all. The best thing I could say to BS is that if he would just stop trying to tell people that his boats will pretty much survive a direct hit from a moon being dropped on them without getting scratched up, and would listen to people with the been there done thats to be able to tell him things that would actually help him, he would sell a lot more boats. Of course so far that has not happened, and I doubt it will, so I will continue to have fun poking at him, because it is about as entertaining as watching the cat chase the laser pointer, almost, and the cat needs a rest now and then.


----------



## bobperry

I have had interns from all over the world. I have even had some of the live in my house while they did their internships. Some of these interns have gone on to very succesful carreers in yacht design, Mark Mills in the UK, Tim Kernan in So Cal, Paul Bieker in Seattle. I hired several interns to come back and work for me. This was a good way to find help as I already knew exactly what they knew and what they could do. I was never very concerned about degrees although I did prefer people with a degree as it showed me they could at least get one job done. I have been very lucky over the years to have had some very skilfull help in the office.


----------



## bobperry

Mark:
For the record I don't think the fact that you are from Texas means anything other than you are from Texas. I like Texas. I had the best BBQ I have ever had in Texas.


----------



## bljones

mark2gmtrans said:


> Me personally, I get a lot of grief from certain elitists for being from Texas, but I just figure it is because they need someone to pick on to make them feel better and I generally let it go.


No, I call you Tex because it is easier than typing your full username.
I could call you tranny if you like. 
I thought you were out of line and I called you on it. Bob Perry, boat designer and Brent Swain boat builder have both taken unattractive and petty shots at each other, and y'know, that's their right- they have the hulls on the water to back their sniping, to a certain extent. It ain't pretty, but it is informative. 
You? You have never built or designed, or even owned a boat, and you take cheap shots at a guy because Bob made it okay? Sorry, in my opinion you don't get the limited pass that Mr. Perry gets, because a) you don't have the resume to back your play, and b) BS certainly has not missed an opportunity to snipe at Bob. If that constitutes picking on you, then you have the choice to wallow in your victimhood or rethink what you type.

Regarding "elitism"- if it is elitist to not take cheap shots at steel boat builders, advocates, homebuilders and those whose designs are aesthetically challenged, then this cheap, small boat owner/sailor is proud to wear the label. Just as the world needs Bobs, the world needs Brents as well.


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## bobperry

This is getting very silly.
"Elitism"?

I see an equal amount of elitism on both sides. At least most of the grp sailors are not telling the steel sailors they are stupid but BS is consistent in his claim that if you don't do it his way you are "foolish" his word. I most certainly don't think steel boat sailors as a group are "foolish". I do think BS is a fool for his elitist attitudes.

blj: I am not looking for a "pass" from you. I'm a big boy and I can take care of myself. Save your pass for someone who needs it.


----------



## smackdaddy

I ran across a question on a another forum that is obvious - but interesting. 

If the steel origami method is all that, why aren't there legitimate builders turning these boats out? If the construction is that sound and the cost point that low - there should be some attractive economy there right?

Is it because people just don't want steel boats?


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## bobperry

Smack:
I think you would need to sell the technique with some attractive looking examples of the build method. That is not happening now. I also think that steel is a foreign building material to a lot of current sailors who grew up in the grp era.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Smack:
> I think you would need to sell the technique with some attractive looking examples of the build method. That is not happening now. I also think that steel is a foreign building material to a lot of current sailors who grew up in the grp era.


Go grab Jeff_H. It's time to design China's next Yacht For The Masses!


----------



## mark2gmtrans

bljones said:


> No, I call you Tex because it is easier than typing your full username.
> I could call you tranny if you like.
> I thought you were out of line and I called you on it. Bob Perry, boat designer and Brent Swain boat builder have both taken unattractive and petty shots at each other, and y'know, that's their right- they have the hulls on the water to back their sniping, to a certain extent. It ain't pretty, but it is informative.
> You? You have never built or designed, or even owned a boat, and you take cheap shots at a guy because Bob made it okay? Sorry, in my opinion you don't get the limited pass that Mr. Perry gets, because a) you don't have the resume to back your play, and b) BS certainly has not missed an opportunity to snipe at Bob. If that constitutes picking on you, then you have the choice to wallow in your victimhood or rethink what you type.
> 
> Regarding "elitism"- if it is elitist to not take cheap shots at steel boat builders, advocates, homebuilders and those whose designs are aesthetically challenged, then this cheap, small boat owner/sailor is proud to wear the label. Just as the world needs Bobs, the world needs Brents as well.


What are you talking about that I never owned a boat...

I have owned several, I have sailed from Texas to Brazil and back, and have never once said that I have never owned a boat. In fact I have owned quite a few which I bought, restored, sailed, and then later sold. I have sailed in the Caribbean, the Gulf of Mexico, the Atlantic, and the Pacific, so before you start talking about me not owning a boat you might at least have something to back that up.

For the record, I have owned a Carver Montego Double Cabin, an O'day 27, and an O'day 29, an Egg Harbor Sedan, a couple of others including a Columbia 39' sloop. I may not be able to own one right now because I decided to work for a couple of years in order to be able to actually live on the next one I buy, but that does not mean I have never owned one. For a very long time while I was married I worked for a month and spent a month on the boat, I sailed mostly on the Gulf Coast of Mexico, and I have been doing that for a long time. I do not claim to know much about sailing, but that never stopped me from actually doing it, and doing it for several months at a time, even sailing for up to nine months straight on a friends boat with them. I cannot help it that when we were in Belem, Brazil on the boat his son and daughter in law were killed in a private plane crash and we had to cut the trip short. A trip that had already lasted just under nine months, on 68' Irwin ketch. I may not be as good at sailing as most of the people on here seem to be, but if I were to purchase a boat tomorrow I could sail it to any place in the world I desired to alone. Can you say the same? I might not have sailed on the Chesapeake Bay much, but I have docked there a few times when I was on a boat. I only have about maybe 10,000 miles on blue water, and I only sailed solo maybe 1,500 of those, so I have a lot to learn about a lot of things, just not from a snot like you.

Not everyone on here is trying to boast about the things they once had, and since I no longer have them I do not much talk about it, but I guess now I have, and I doubt I will again. The first day I was on sailnet I got some really weird messages about my handle, people thought I was going to be trying to promote or sell something. I started to just sign off because it was a really weird thing to say to a new forum member, and I personally have had enough stress in my life to last me forever, but because I like to sail, and I like people who do sail, I stayed. From time to time I get frustrated with elitists, who really should not think so much of themselves, making snotty comments like the ones you so often make. I can guarantee you would not talk to me or most likely anyone else the way you do here if it were in person, and I would be the same way I am here no matter what, which makes me at least consistent in my attitude.

I bet that even you have owned things in the past that you no longer own, for whatever reason.

I actually think that quite a few of the people on here are nice, you just are not one of them. Oh, and as for what I mean by elitists, I mean those who continually talk down to others because they supposedly own a nicer boat, car, or house, or have some other alleged reason to boast. I may be a jerk sometimes, and I apologize often for it, but at least I know in my heart that the things I may have owned or done in life do not make me better than someone who is trying to get started. You take shots at some people for not jumping up and buying the first boat they look at, or for being upset when they travel a day or two to look at a boat and it is not anything like what the photos that were shown on the sale site made it out to be. You also seem to think that when people do not buy the first boat they look at, or they look at for or five boats without buying one they are somehow looky loos, or something like that, I say they are just trying not to be the proud owner of a piece of junk that they overpaid for, and that will cost them three times what it is worth in order to actually be able to sail it.


----------



## bljones

mark2gmtrans said:


> What are you talking about that I never owned a boat...


I got that from this post:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1058322-post17.html

I'm sure you can understand my confusion, after reading that you sailed OPB and "have not gone back to sea YET"

I'm okay with not being liked.


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## bobperry

Boys! Go to your rooms!


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## bljones

You started it, Bob.


----------



## bobperry

I need a snappy and equally intelligent comback here:
Got it.

I know you are but what am I?


----------



## copacabana

Mark, aesthetics is a difficult thing to debate. You don't like Brent's boats. Fine. You like Bob's boats. Who doesn't? What's not to like? You probably don't find working craft like fishing boats very attractive either. I do. I love boats in general and I like to evaluate every design based on its intended use. I live in a country with an incredible variety of traditional working craft. There are dugout canoes made from the single trunks of the Guapuruvu tree, probably hundreds of different traditional fishing boat designs in wood ranging from small shrimpers and long liners to 150 ft sailing schooners. They are all beautiful to me. All designed with a specific purpose in mind and honed to that task. To me, Brent's boats are similar in concept. They are purpose-built designs for cruising. Some are built to work boat standards and some are more refined.


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## smackdaddy

I've got just what you fellas need:


----------



## mark2gmtrans

smackdaddy said:


> I've got just what you fellas need:


What is that Smack? Peanut butter jelly time?


----------



## smackdaddy

It's some HTFU and Vegemite. As for the Veg, I'm actually kind of starting to hate it less.

Damn you Bob Perry!


----------



## bobperry

In the PNW we have a rich and deep tradition of very beautiful work boats, from tugs to gill netters to log salvage boats and salmon charter boats. Because a boat is a work boat does not mean it can't have a high degree of aesthetic beauty. Bill Garden, Ed Monk Sr. and guys like H.C.Hansen taught us that many times over.

At the Perry Rendezvous last week there was a converted gill netter. I studied that boat, again, I have seen if for several years in the marina. The sheerline is absolutely perfect. I thought about how I agonize over finalizing a sheer and then I thought od the ease and perfection of this workboat sheer probably done as a reflex.

I like to study the aesthetics of work boats. Even the big Foss tractor tugs are very good looking. There are also butt ugly work boats too. I just don't look at them.


----------



## bobperry

Smackers:
Have your boys take Vegemite sammys to school for lunch. They can pass them out to their friends and laugh as the friends throw up.

Reminds me of the time I was at a youth soccer pizza party. One of the young players cruised by my table and picked up a slice of my double anchovie pizza. The look on his face was priceless when he bit into it.


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## smackdaddy

Heh-heh. SmackTheElder had his church youth group friends over to our house this past weekend for a pool party. He made every one of them try it, as well as the parents. We spread it really thin on a triscuit. It was actually pretty well received. 

You may have started a trend here in Texas. Of course, Texans and Australians are pretty much the same breed anyway. BBQ and Vegemite. Yeah, baby.


----------



## bobperry

Texas BBQ? You are making me very hungry.


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## smackdaddy

Texas BBQ:










Other:










Take your choice.


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## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> I've got just what you fellas need:


Hey! They haven't been THAT bad! That constitutes cruel and unusual punishment.


----------



## JomsViking

Brent,

You never commented on this: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1051099-post841.html



> Facts:
> 1. GRP boats are cheaper (as you admitted in this thread previously)
> 2. Even with a steel boat a grounding may kill you, so learn to navigate (although you refuse to believe the evidence)
> 3. An overly heavy hull that doesn't point well may not be able to beat of a lee shore and/or into a safe haven (no matter the material)
> 4. Steel is a great material for boatbuilding, and so is wood and GRP
> 5. The Pardeys have survived in wooden boats for soooo many years.
> 6. The test to destructions made by NASA are scientific and empirical, not just bad navigators running aground.
> 7. Fram was made of wood.


And to keep slightly on topic for where this thread is currently headed
8. Marmite is preferable to Vegemite
9. Steel is a great material for BBQ's


----------



## smackdaddy

JomsViking said:


> 9. Steel is a great material for BBQ's


Check. The GRP BBQs leave this really weird aftertaste in the chops.


----------



## bljones

smackdaddy said:


> Check. The GRP BBQs leave this really weird aftertaste in the chops.


And the gelcoat can't tolerate hickory smoke.


----------



## jak3b

Steel is much harder to chew.


----------



## bobperry

Yeah, but if you run your steel BBQ onto the rocks it can survive for weeks.

And for the record, Marmite is for pansies.


----------



## aeventyr60

smackdaddy said:


> Check. The GRP BBQs leave this really weird aftertaste in the chops.


All those GRP gas bottles have been recalled. Better you stick to steel.


----------



## aeventyr60

smackdaddy said:


> Go grab Jeff_H. It's time to design China's next Yacht For The Masses!


Given the way wages are going it may be better to lay one up down in Kemah.


----------



## bobperry

You know, there are times when I am out there BBQ'ing and things aren't going as planned. I have a burn going on some pieces and other pieces of meat just don't seem to be cooking at all. It's damn fusterating! 

It's times like those I like to pull out my .45 and shoot my BBQ. The bullets just bounce off and fly in all directions but tomorrow,,,I'll be good to BBQ again. Who knows, maybe I'll get it right this time. Maybe not and I'll have to shoot the BBQ again. But I know that my BBQ can take a good shooting and live to tell the tale.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

bobperry said:


> You know, there are times when I am out there BBQ'ing and things aren't going as planned. I have a burn going on some pieces and other pieces of meat just don't seem to be cooking at all. It's damn fusterating!
> 
> It's times like those I like to pull out my .45 and shoot my BBQ. The bullets just bounce off and fly in all directions but tomorrow,,,I'll be good to BBQ again. Who knows, maybe I'll get it right this time. Maybe not and I'll have to shoot the BBQ again. But I know that my BBQ can take a good shooting and live to tell the tale.


 Bob,

I have a grill made from 24" pipeline pipe with a 2 7/8" inch wall on it, the grill itself is some really heavy diamond grill from some catwalk or something, and it is, oddly enough, the most even cooking grill I have ever owned. It takes about three hours to cool down after you put the fire out though LOL. I have mesquite, oak, hickory, and pecan wood that I burn in it, you get the mix just right and it is great for steaks or ribs or anything else.... and now I am hungry.

As for the vegemite, I have only ever tasted it once, and barely that, and that was enough to know it was not Jif and not Smuckers and did not belong on a sandwich. I think if you ground up Bob's anchovy pizza, mixed in some of the stuff that collects up in the creases under the blades of your garbage disposal you would have something that might still be better than vegemite. Of course I am not sure that this is not the actual recipe for vegemite.

I like anchovy pizza, not everyone does, but hey I also like a supreme pizza with pineapple chunks on it, and not everyone likes that either.


----------



## bobperry

Holy cow Mark, pineapple on pizza?
Next you will tell us that you paint your toenails!

Your BBQ sounds great. I'd like on like that but my son bought me fancy propane one for Christmas. He got tired of watching me fuss with the briquettes. Can't say I prefer propane but I do BBQ a lot more now than I did before. I don't even try ribs or brisket.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

bobperry said:


> Holy cow Mark, pineapple on pizza?
> Next you will tell us that you paint your toenails!
> 
> Your BBQ sounds great. I'd like on like that but my son bought me fancy propane one for Christmas. He got tired of watching me fuss with the briquettes. Can't say I prefer propane but I do BBQ a lot more now than I did before. I don't even try ribs or brisket.


Brisket must be smoked, and my huge hunk of pipe has another huge hunk on the side of it to burn the wood slowly for smoking. When I do a brisket I usually let it smoke overnight. I take mesquite wood from the roots of a mesquite tree, pecan logs, apple logs, and I soak hickory, oak, apple, and mesquite chips in water for a couple of days to throw on every now and then to produce the smoke. You cannot use too much of the mesquite or it gets a little too bitter, the same with oak and hickory. The apple wood has a great mellow smoke flavor that is not bitter at all and the humidity and temperature in the smoker have to be right too. I try to never get it over 210 while smoking, and the smoker has a big pan of water in there to keep it a really moist smoke.

Next time I fire the thing up I will try to take some photos and post them, just to have you really want to have some wood in your grill haha.

The only problem with it is that I loaned it to a friend a couple of weeks ago, and the thing takes four really strong men to load on a trailer, I am not looking forward to having him call me and tell me he is ready to bring it back LOL.


----------



## smackdaddy

Actually, I've thought of a great use of unfinished BrentBoats:










Put some wheels on that sucker and turn it into a smoker!


----------



## mark2gmtrans

smackdaddy said:


> Actually, I've thought of a great use of unfinished BrentBoats:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Put some wheels on that sucker and turn it into a smoker!


Ha, that might just work, you hinge the sides of the coachroof, add a few hydraulic cylinders to help lift it, put in a few baffles in the interior for channeling the smoke properly...

Yeah it is workable, and it could help the owner raise money to buy a boat that is finished.


----------



## blt2ski

Yous guys must not have jobs.....or you are at a blinken puter all day! unlike some of us.......

Now I "COULD", more like "PROBABLY" am wrong on this. But wouldn't origami steel boats be on par design wise with some of the "stitch and glue" boats designed by Sam Devlin in Olympia? They seem to have multiple seems, lengths tied together etc. At least to me, similar in build technique, but wood instead of steel. I'm not going to get into looks etc. Only the basic how to build the boat, strengths etc.

Marty


----------



## mark2gmtrans

blt2ski said:


> Yous guys must not have jobs.....or you are at a blinken puter all day! unlike some of us.......
> 
> Now I "COULD", more like "PROBABLY" am wrong on this. But wouldn't origami steel boats be on par design wise with some of the "stitch and glue" boats designed by Sam Devlin in Olympia? They seem to have multiple seems, lengths tied together etc. At least to me, similar in build technique, but wood instead of steel. I'm not going to get into looks etc. Only the basic how to build the boat, strengths etc.
> 
> Marty


Oh, I have a job, and some days I actually work 

I actually was watching a video on that very thing last weekend. I thought it was pretty cool how the guy made a boat out of plywood and baling wire, then held it together with the glue and fiberglass. Some of the little ones were actually fairly nice, not sure how good it would be on a larger one, but they showed a couple in the 22' to 30' range that were stitch and glue. It looked like the basic idea was a plywood core for a fiberglass boat, just a different way to get the frame itself put together. I have no issue with the origami plan idea, I just think that the BS ones are not as good as they could be. One of the other origami steel guys has frames and full bulkheads in his designs, and the hulls are much better in their design shapes.

I would think that a sailing dinghy from stitch and glue method would be fine, and in reality the baling wire comes out, and only the epoxy and fiberglass hold it together in the completed boat, so the method is not nearly as important as the finished product. One thing I saw was that if a person was fairly skilled with carpentry it would not be too tough to do.


----------



## jak3b

bobperry said:


> Holy cow Mark, pineapple on pizza?
> Next you will tell us that you paint your toenails!
> 
> Your BBQ sounds great. I'd like on like that but my son bought me fancy propane one for Christmas. He got tired of watching me fuss with the briquettes. Can't say I prefer propane but I do BBQ a lot more now than I did before. I don't even try ribs or brisket.


Yup, When I first saw a pizza with pineapple on it I thought that is just wrong!.If I get frustrated with my steel BBQ I drag it down to beach and let the surf pound on it for a couple of weeks.If we had coral here Id drag it through that for hundreds of yards.


----------



## bobperry

jak:
Nice try but you must shoot your BBQ to bring out the full flavor.

Me? I had lasagne for dinner. My wife made it and it was good. It'll b better tomorrow.
I will not shoot the lasagne.


----------



## SloopJonB

Don't they have "Hawaiian" pizzas where you guys live? Ham & pineapple - one of the standards, like pepperoni & mushroom.


----------



## blt2ski

Down here it twoud be "canadian bacon and pineapple" Granted that canadian bacon and ham are one and the same..........so anyway...... I'll keep the rest of the political type comments to the off piste area!

Marty


----------



## jak3b

Hawaiin Pizza is strictly a west coast thing here. The sweetest thing I want on pizza is garlic.I like anchovies to.Pepperoni,dry hot red peppers sausage,shrooms.Although I did have a sea food pizza in Thailand that was spectacular.It didnt resemble pizza in any way except that it was round but it was delicious.
Bob,Here is the latest in Sailboat testing devices developed by the society of navel architects and engineers of the Great State of Outer Chikrania


----------



## Classic30

smackdaddy said:


> You may have started a trend here in Texas. Of course, *Texans and Australians are pretty much the same breed anyway.* BBQ and Vegemite. Yeah, baby.


Smacky, I'm not sure if that's a compliment or an insult...  

Vegemite: The stuff is made from leftover brewers' yeast extract right here in my home town (one of the few exports Australia has left - but that's another story entirely). It's basically the stuff scraped off the bottom of the beer barrel with an additive to two to make it (only slightly) more palatable.


----------



## JomsViking

Classic30 said:


> Smacky, I'm not sure if that's a compliment or an insult...
> 
> Vegemite: The stuff is made from leftover brewers' yeast extract right here in my home town (one of the few exports Australia has left - but that's another story entirely). It's basically the stuff scraped off the bottom of the beer barrel with an additive to two to make it (only slightly) more palatable.


Vegemite = Dead yeast with salt
Marmite = Dead yeast with salt

Pick your favorite (and enjoy this - slightly imprecise - description)
The Contents in Marmite - Uncyclopedia, the content-free encyclopedia


----------



## mark2gmtrans

JomsViking said:


> Vegemite = Dead yeast with salt
> Marmite = Dead yeast with salt
> 
> Pick your favorite (and enjoy this - slightly imprecise - description)
> The Contents in Marmite - Uncyclopedia, the content-free encyclopedia


Sounds yummy....not!


----------



## SloopJonB

Classic30 said:


> It's basically the stuff scraped off the bottom of the beer barrel with an additive to two to make it (only slightly) more palatable.


Seems appropriate since it looks and tastes like something scraped off the bottom of your shoe.


----------



## bobperry

If you grew up eating it you'd think it was mother's milk, like I do.


----------



## smackdaddy

It puts a rose in every cheek.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

smackdaddy said:


> It puts a rose in every cheek.


My guess is that those cheek roses come from spending so much time with your cheeks on the seat of the toilet ( you can pick which cheeks will be rosiest, I am figuring both sets are going to be there.)


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> If you grew up eating it you'd think it was mother's milk, like I do.


Yeah but you were born in Oz - that HAS to leave some sort of scar.


----------



## bobperry

I was born in Toledo, Ohio.


----------



## SloopJonB

Oooops.  How old were you when you went down the yellow brick road to Oz?


----------



## bobperry

I don't really remember and everyone who knows is dead. I recall seeing a pic of me standing on the quay in Sydney just off the ship and to my eye I would say I was close to 2 years old. I have that photo somewhere and perhaps there is a date written on it.


----------



## outbound

Bob I think your still being an Aussie at heart explains everything. For BS everything you think or say is just upside down for him. Different perspective for him. Too bad as I still think it would be fun to know more about +/- of steel construction not just hear repetitive diatribe about origami. Spent last week ghosting in light air. My SA/disp is adequate so didn't have to run the iron genny that much. Admiral wanted to go slow and chill so set them and forget them. Still, wonder about issues in designing a moderate to heavy displacement vessel that retains the ability to perform in the light air all too common in August on the east coast while remaining able to tolerate the weight us cruisers carry along. My slip mate is in an IP. I weigh a bit less but loa the same. He seems to need to power most days. Admittedly, I'll tolerate 4-5kts sog as long as I don't hear an engine and he won't tolerate less then hull speed from what I see. Is just sail area? What makes for a slippery hull? Is it possible with origami? From what little I know that's the limiting factor in origami. You can't get fully developed shapes so other hulls be they in steel, glass, wire reinforced cement, what ever cannot be as "slippery" in an origami shaped hull. ?I s my thinking wrong in this?
Also note in past have had boats that perform better on one tack then the other. Assume they come out of the mold symmetrical. ?Why does that occur? Look at the bottoms-same number of thru hulls or other sources of drag on both sides, boat floats on it's lines. Don't get it. Doesn't happen in current boat. Read the Metal boat discussion about inability to control details of the folds in origami. Does something similar occur to GRP boats over time?


----------



## mark2gmtrans

outbound said:


> ....*What makes for a slippery hull?* ....


I think this stuff will make even an origami BS hull slippery.










In all seriousness I have often wondered what having a coating like some of the new non-stick ceramics might do for a hull. I know it is retarded, but I was imagining marine life kind of sliding off of it and the water slipping past it like it was greased....


----------



## blt2ski

I seem to recall some bottom paints having teflon or something similar in them......... With copper going out in many area's, there will have to be some creative thinking on keeping the crud off the hull bottoms.

Marty


----------



## Classic30

bobperry said:


> If you grew up eating it you'd think it was mother's milk, like I do.


Hmm.. actually I did grow up eating it. And by the time I was about nine I couldn't stand even the smell of the stuff (or, even today, the whiff you get from the Kraft factory as I drive down the freeway to get the boat).

Still, it's one of this country's greatest exports, so it can't be all bad. :laugher

Next time you have some, think of this... because you're spreading what's left on your toast:


----------



## mark2gmtrans

blt2ski said:


> I seem to recall some bottom paints having teflon or something similar in them......... With copper going out in many area's, there will have to be some creative thinking on keeping the crud off the hull bottoms.
> 
> Marty


I kind of like this color of non stick... and look it is orgreenic.


----------



## blt2ski

THOUGHT SO

Altho it is not a true anti fouling paint per the directions. only for limited use or trailer-able boats in the water for short periods of time.......but it HAS Teflon!


----------



## mark2gmtrans

Oh, after a few minutes of google'ing I came across this stuff. It is supposed to be a non-stick marine coating. I am not sure if it is a slippery as crisco, but it probably is less fattening. This stuff is supposed to be good for long term and also prevents zebra muscles and what have you.

Marine Coating And Boat Bottom Paint From Ecological Coatings


----------



## bobperry

Out:

I think it is pretty clear that you and I like the same kind of boats. I'd be happy to own your boat. I want performance. Some sailors don't know what that means. I do. You do. We can be an "elite" group. I am convinced that when we say "performance" that a sorry lot of crusing sailors have no clue what we are talking about. I will strive to change that.


----------



## desert rat

Classic performance sailboat. Stuart Knockabout. originally in wood, still being made in fiberglass. I may not know much about sailboats but I am learning.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Bob I think your still being an Aussie at heart explains everything. For BS everything you think or say is just upside down for him. Different perspective for him. Too bad as I still think it would be fun to know more about +/- of steel construction not just hear repetitive diatribe about origami. Spent last week ghosting in light air. My SA/disp is adequate so didn't have to run the iron genny that much. Admiral wanted to go slow and chill so set them and forget them. Still, wonder about issues in designing a moderate to heavy displacement vessel that retains the ability to perform in the light air all too common in August on the east coast while remaining able to tolerate the weight us cruisers carry along. My slip mate is in an IP. I weigh a bit less but loa the same. He seems to need to power most days. Admittedly, I'll tolerate 4-5kts sog as long as I don't hear an engine and he won't tolerate less then hull speed from what I see. Is just sail area? What makes for a slippery hull? Is it possible with origami? From what little I know that's the limiting factor in origami. You can't get fully developed shapes so other hulls be they in steel, glass, wire reinforced cement, what ever cannot be as "slippery" in an origami shaped hull. ?I s my thinking wrong in this?
> Also note in past have had boats that perform better on one tack then the other. Assume they come out of the mold symmetrical. ?Why does that occur? Look at the bottoms-same number of thru hulls or other sources of drag on both sides, boat floats on it's lines. Don't get it. Doesn't happen in current boat. Read the Metal boat discussion about inability to control details of the folds in origami. Does something similar occur to GRP boats over time?


The greatest drag occurs in a hard chine hull when the water flows across the chine. That is most likely in the bow, where waves flow at a large variety of angles. Midships it mostly parallels the chines. Origami hulls eliminate the chine in the bow and stern, and one can easily radius the existing short chines amidships .As the angles the water flows across the midships chines are small, even a small radius will eliminate this drag. After that, it is just a matter of adequate sail area to displacement . It is not displacement in itself which kills light air performance, it's just the ratio of sail area to displacement. 
Lack of winds are a big problem here in BC as well, where my boats are extremely popular. Not much wind gets past the big breakwater( Vancouver Island).


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> If you grew up eating it you'd think it was mother's milk, like I do.


Bob , are you Aussie?


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Actually, I've thought of a great use of unfinished BrentBoats:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Put some wheels on that sucker and turn it into a smoker!


You guys are coming up with all kinds of photos of Brentboats I've never seen. I guess there are far more of them that I realize.
Thanks !


----------



## Brent Swain

JomsViking said:


> Brent,
> 
> You never commented on this: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1051099-post841.html
> 
> And to keep slightly on topic for where this thread is currently headed
> 8. Marmite is preferable to Vegemite
> 9. Steel is a great material for BBQ's


GRP Is not cheaper for a new boat. You couldnt build a GRP hull for anwhere near as cheaply as a steel boat. The last quote we got for the steel for a 36 this past winter was $9K. How much fibreglassing materials can you get for that much money? Not enough to build a 36 ft hull and deck, by any stretch of the imagination. The odds of dying in a GRP boat aground in surf are far greater than in a steel boat and exponentially greater in a mid ocean collision in GRP compared to steel.
My boats have no problem pointing higher and sailing faster than many GRP cruising boats. 
The Pardys told me they have weeks of hard work getting their wooden boats back together after every ocean crossing , while mine take only an hour or less.


----------



## Brent Swain

JomsViking said:


> Brent,
> 
> You never commented on this: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1051099-post841.html
> 
> And to keep slightly on topic for where this thread is currently headed
> 8. Marmite is preferable to Vegemite
> 9. Steel is a great material for BBQ's


GRP Is not cheaper for a new boat. You couldnt build a GRP hull for anwhere near as cheaply as a steel boat. The odds of dying in a GRP boat aground in surf are far greater than in a steel boat and exponentially greater in a mid ocean collision in GRP compared to steel.
My boats have no problem pointing higher and sailing faster than many GRP cruising boats. 
The Pardys told me they have weeks of hard work getting their wooden boats back together after every ocean crossing , while mine take only an hour or less. 
Testing to destruction proves that there are limits to the reliability of calculations. 
The Kon Tiki was also made of wood, but I don't think you are crossing oceans in a sistership. The Fram was made of wood, but I don't see any icebreakers made of it. Had they had modern steel technology, she would have been made of steel.


----------



## bobperry

Light air performance is about wetted surface. You can find data on this in any book on yacht design. But you do have to read them.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> You guys are coming up with all kinds of photos of Brentboats I've never seen. I guess there are far more of them that I realize.
> Thanks !


Yeah - it's just a bummer that many of them are unfinished and rusting away in backyards. What an environmental waste. Huge footprint.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

bobperry said:


> Light air performance is about wetted surface. You can find data on this in any book on yacht design. But you do have to read them.


Bob,

We all really appreciate your patience and your help in learning so much about why boats perform as they do, and the things to consider when we are looking at a boat to purchase.

I just wanted to take a minute to seriously say "Thank You.". You spend time here that you do not have to, you put up with a lot of repeated questions, crazy ideas, and a pretty fair amount of general stupidity and ignorance, all while keeping a great and very helpful attitude. We really appreciate all you do to help us learn about boat design, building, and the reason why things are done the way they are done.

I read a lot of books and texts and articles because I enjoy it, but one of my favorite things to read is the commentary you give on design here on sailnet.

So thank you Bob, please know that we do appreciate what you do to help us learn.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> GRP Is not cheaper for a new boat. You couldnt build a GRP hull for anwhere near as cheaply as a steel boat. The odds of dying in a GRP boat aground in surf are far greater than in a steel boat and exponentially greater in a mid ocean collision in GRP compared to steel.
> My boats have no problem pointing higher and sailing faster than many GRP boats.
> The Pardys told me they have weeks of hard work getting their wooden boats back together after every ocean crossing , while mine take only an hour or less.


Okay - this one is a classic.


----------



## bobperry

Thanks Mark.
Where I live I have no "social life". So playing around here is my substitute for a social life. I enjoy contributing where I can. It makes me feel useful. I also like to help identify silly claims by people who don't know much about yacht design. I do enjoy a good argument.


----------



## JomsViking

Brent,

Heard You the first 1000 times. GRP bad Steel good, other (hard earned) experiences doesn't Count. The records broken!

Stuff like "My boats have no problem pointing higher and sailing faster than many GRP boats." is basically just unfounded BS, a bit like saying that my car is faster than many American cars (or my dad can beat yours).
Funny thing is steel used by any other builder than yourself seems to be bad, as evidenced by your comments on other steel boats (including Commercial vessels).

And Fram would be built in Aluminum (see what I did there?)



Brent Swain said:


> GRP Is not cheaper for a new boat. You couldnt build a GRP hull for anwhere near as cheaply as a steel boat. The odds of dying in a GRP boat aground in surf are far greater than in a steel boat and exponentially greater in a mid ocean collision in GRP compared to steel.
> My boats have no problem pointing higher and sailing faster than many GRP boats.
> The Pardys told me they have weeks of hard work getting their wooden boats back together after every ocean crossing , while mine take only an hour or less.
> Testing to destruction proves that there are limits to the reliability of calculations.
> The Kon Tiki was also made of wood, but I don't think you are crossing oceans in a sistership. The Fram was made of wood, but I don't see any icebreakers made of it. Had they had modern steel technology, she would have been made of steel.


----------



## bobperry

"My boats have no problem pointing higher and sailing faster than many GRP boats." 

What a silly thing to say.

I'd like a little more specificity on this. But if it came from BS I think it still would be BS considering his claim of his boats outrunning the racing fleet in San Diego. BS must think we are very stupid if he expects us to believe that.

I would never expect his boats to be fast boats and I can't imagine that is their primary purpose. I'm certain no one builds a BS boat for it's speed . His boats certainly have features that make them very attractive for a certain set of owners but speed is not one of them.

I do know a bit about boat speed. Just look up Swiftsure Race results for the past three years on all courses. My designs have been dominant. This is specific fact and not a silly fictitious claim.


----------



## smackdaddy

My Hunter is faster than and can outpoint a unicorn.


----------



## bobperry

Prove that claim with race result Smack!


----------



## smackdaddy

Video from the race:






Shot from the companionway.


----------



## bobperry

Good. So that is verified.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> The Pardys told me they have weeks of hard work getting their wooden boats back together after every ocean crossing , while mine take only an hour or less.


The Pardeys keep their boats in better than Bristol condition. I was on Taliesin when it was more than 15 years old and it looked like a new boat.

Your boats generally don't look like new boats when they ARE new.

If the cosmetic standard of a tug is all you are after, yeah - maybe an hour would do it.

Brent - you've been getting the credit you deserve for the unique and/or specialized aspects of your methods and boats - quit trying to make them more than they are with bull$hit claims.

No-one's buying - it simply blows your credibility.


----------



## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> The Pardeys keep their boats in better than Bristol condition. I was on Taliesin when it was more than 15 years old and it looked like a new boat.
> 
> Your boats generally don't look like new boats when they ARE new.
> 
> If the cosmetic standard of a tug is all you are after, yeah - maybe an hour would do it.


I've never quite gotten Brent's line of reasoning on this either. I too can easily spend $0 and 0 time maintaining my boat. It's really not that hard. Lots of people do it.

How exactly does Brent think this is an admirable thing?


----------



## jak3b

I guess he thinks it sounds good.Hey I only spend about 15 minutes a year cleaning my body.Around Xmas/New years I'll take a quick splash, a little brush of the old teeth,maybe wipe me bum.I dont need anything frivilous or costly like laundry,I just stand out in the rain with my clothes on....never have to work at'tall or ever change yer socks an little streams of whiskey jus' come tumblin down the rocks.


----------



## JomsViking

Good point, and probably what p155e5 many of us off - Some of us have experienced bone idle thieving lying ba5tards on boats looking similar to e.g. Everything Wong, and one of their identificators are that they have let them self and their boats go.
 


jak3b said:


> I guess he thinks it sounds good.Hey I only spend about 15 minutes a year cleaning my body.Around Xmas/New years I'll take a quick splash, a little brush of the old teeth,maybe wipe me bum.I dont need anything frivilous or costly like laundry,I just stand out in the rain with my clothes on....never have to work at'tall or ever change yer socks an little streams of whiskey jus' come tumblin down the rocks.


----------



## Brent Swain

Funny, how people who have never sailed my boats, claim to know more about how my boats sail to windward than people who actually sail them, then call others liars. Funny how people, who claim that a heavily varnished wooden boat is as easy to maintain as a painted one, then call those who challenge this claim, liars ?
Makes it obvious who the real liars are!


----------



## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> I've never quite gotten Brent's line of reasoning on this either. I too can easily spend $0 and 0 time maintaining my boat. It's really not that hard. Lots of people do it.
> 
> How exactly does Brent think this is an admirable thing?


I think his implication is that his boats don't NEED it - they are so much more durable than those junky plastic things that they simply don't wear anything out.

He has long since demonstrated that his personal cosmetic/aesthetic bar is set at a work boat level - function follows function.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Yeah - it's just a bummer that many of them are unfinished and rusting away in backyards. What an environmental waste. Huge footprint.


All boats are unfinished at some point in their construction, Smack. No Smack, they don't often go instantly, from start to finished ! Had you any experience, you would know that.


----------



## Brent Swain

blt2ski said:


> I seem to recall some bottom paints having teflon or something similar in them......... With copper going out in many area's, there will have to be some creative thinking on keeping the crud off the hull bottoms.
> 
> Marty


I once had a dirty bottom and a windward bash a head of me, in a very small tide zone . Dragged a poly tarp under my boat ,let it float up against my hull, then poured a gallon of bleach down into it. By next morning all the weeds had fallen off. Fresh water ( including rain water) can do the same , over a longer time span.
A Japanese friend said he had a friend who swore by ground wasabi in his antifouling.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> "My boats have no problem pointing higher and sailing faster than many GRP boats."
> 
> What a silly thing to say.
> 
> I'd like a little more specificity on this. But if it came from BS I think it still would be BS considering his claim of his boats outrunning the racing fleet in San Diego. BS must think we are very stupid if he expects us to believe that.
> 
> I would never expect his boats to be fast boats and I can't imagine that is their primary purpose. I'm certain no one builds a BS boat for it's speed . His boats certainly have features that make them very attractive for a certain set of owners but speed is not one of them.
> 
> I do know a bit about boat speed. Just look up Swiftsure Race results for the past three years on all courses. My designs have been dominant. This is specific fact and not a silly fictitious claim.


Sure Bob. And what was the price tag on those boats and sails? Anything the average cruiser could afford? Anything under $35K? What was the draft? Anything practical for cruising? How big a crew do they require? Could they be handled by a couple? What were their annual maintenance costs? Did they have those bad seamanship, 24 inch high, extruded tinfoil stanchions?
I have yet to hear of a single innovation by Bob,to deal with the biggest hurdle cruisers face, time and money. His approach seems to be elitism, discouragement and obstructionism.
I once rafted alongside one of those "State of the art " racing boats in San Diego, called " Pandemonium" The keel fell off her, when she foolishly tried to make it to Hawaii.


----------



## jak3b

-Bleh


----------



## jak3b

She said "God I LOVE Bob Perry designs!".


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Mark:
> Thanks for posting that pic of the alu Norseman. That guy was a real artist in alu. He was one of the most skilled "home builders" I have ever worked with. The steel boat was built by Amazon and has many miles on it. But it is a true
> "yacht" and a far cry from the BS boats aesthetically.
> 
> We live on a beach where all the new houses are custom builds. Almost all of these are custom designs. Ours is a custom design by Chuck Schiff. I did all the interior details but I do not call myself "the designer" of my home. When I talk to other beach residents with sustom homes I often here,"I designed it." Then I ask, "Did you do the drawings?" Typically they say no but they did some sketches. If they didn't do the working drawings then I would not soncider them the designer of their house.
> 
> So is BS a designer? If he does his won drawings and builds to those drawings then I would call him the "designer" and the builder obviously. He must not be very proud of his drawings as I have never seen any posted here. My drawings are works of art and many, many boats have been built from them and are currently being built from them. I post my drawings with pride and challenge anyone calling themselves a "yacht designer" to post better drawings. In my office the design process is taken very seriously. I want the quality of the drawings to reflect the quality of the design work AND the quality I expect in the finished product.


 A friend went to see an amazon being built. The builder told him the boat was ready for spray foaming and the foamer was coming that night. There was nothing but a light coat of primer inside, and no welding inside. He could see almost an eighth of an inch into the welds, with the outside mostly ground off. There was roughly the thickness of a beer can holding the seams together. My friend built one of mine, and sailed her from BC to England.
Another friend, Eric, ordered an amazon, bare hull and decks, and insisted on no primer. He wanted to see the state of the bare steel hull. They primed it anyway . When he sandblasted her he found the primer was there to hide very thick layers of filler. 
A Kiwi told me his friend ordered an Amazon, and specified longitudinals be tacked with a 2 inch tack every 6 inches. When he scraped out some foam, he found they had a half inch tack every 2 feet. He persued the builder with a court summons, to sue him. When he caught up with him, and served the summons , the shop declared bankruptcy, and that was the last amazon ever built. 
Those are the kind of boats which impress Bob. I don't build boats in a way which impresses Bob. I build them properly.
What causes distortion? Welding ! How do you avoid distortion on a boat with transverse framing? Don't weld it well. Guaranteed to impress those who don't understand steel boats.


----------



## smackdaddy

For a hermit, you sure have a lot of friends.


----------



## jak3b

And, Always harping on about people with no experience with your boats or construction then using totaly anecdodal stories to make your points." A friend told me this", "Joes cousin saw that",WTF?.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> For a hermit, you sure have a lot of friends.


I do. Got my hand shaken and more compliments and invitations this summer than I can count. Anyone interested in steel boats, or simple cruising solutions in general , wants to pick my brain. Fortunately, living on a steel boat lets me sail away any time I choose. I sure wouldn't want to live at a fixed street address. That wouldn't give me any hermit time.


----------



## Brent Swain

jak3b said:


> And, Always harping on about people with no experience with your boats or construction then using totaly anecdodal stories to make your points." A friend told me this", "Joes cousin saw that",WTF?.


I have been in touch with steel boat owners for the last 40 years around here, and across the Pacific, etc.

Where can I find government documentation of everything you have been told over a lifetime. 
Wikileaks?
Not yet!


----------



## JomsViking

Brent,

Pictures and documentation or it didn't happen.
For a starter;
Pictures of the actual non-welded internal.
Pictures of the filler
Case documents.

Get some of the owners to write here on SN (I wouldn't pick Nuthin Wong, though)

That way you just might start (re)building credibility.

Respectfully
/Joms



Brent Swain said:


> A friend went to see an amazon being built. The builder told him the boat was ready for spray foaming and the foamer was coming that night. There was nothing but a light coat of primer inside, and no welding inside. He could see almost an eighth of an inch into the welds, with the outside mostly ground off. There was roughly the thickness of a beer can holding the seams together. My friend built one of mine, and sailed her from BC to England.
> Another friend, Eric, ordered an amazon, bare hull and decks, and insisted on no primer. He wanted to see the state of the bare steel hull. They primed it anyway . When he sandblasted her he found the primer was there to hide very thick layers of filler.
> A Kiwi told me his friend ordered an Amazon, and specified longitudinals be tacked with a 2 inch tack every 6 inches. When he scraped out some foam, he found they had a half inch tack every 2 feet. He persued the builder with a court summons, to sue him. When he caught up with him, and served the summons , the shop declared bankruptcy, and that was the last amazon ever built.
> Those are the kind of boats which impress Bob. I don't build boats in a way which impresses Bob. I build them properly.
> What causes distortion? Welding ! How do you avoid distortion on a boat with transverse framing? Don't weld it well. Guaranteed to impress those who don't understand steel boats.


----------



## JomsViking

Cross posted.
Nobody is asking for everything, just a little..



Brent Swain said:


> I have been in touch with steel boat owners for the last 40 years around here, and across the Pacific, etc.
> 
> Where can I find government documentation of everything you have been told over a lifetime.
> Wikileaks?
> Not yet!


----------



## Brent Swain

That was in the 80s. I wasn't around when he sandblasted, or foamed. If you didn't get a picture of your self taking a crap, it has never happened? 
Now that's analy retentive!
How about every day of your sailing experience? Those you don't have pictures of ,have never happened ?
Ya sure!


----------



## jak3b

Brent Swain said:


> I have been in touch with steel boat owners for the last 40 years around here, and across the Pacific, etc.
> 
> Where can I find government documentation of everything you have been told over a lifetime.
> Wikileaks?
> Not yet!


I am not trying to prove or sell anything. I dont no shyte about steel boats other than what Ive read.I am not going to tell you,"Joe blow told me this boat sucks" Unless I actually saw it myself and understood what I was dealing with.Then I could state it with confidence. " I was not impressed by such and such".Then of course I would be held accountable to back it up.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay, Brent, we can argue this all day long. Instead, I think it's better to open it up some...

*A QUESTION TO READERS OF THIS THREAD:

If you are thinking about a building or sailing a steel boat - does what you see in this thread make you more or less confident in investing your time and money into a Brent Swain boat?*


----------



## bobperry

Come on you guys. We are being a bit hard on Brent. He has his thing and he has earned his thing. Some of us don't want it and we are insulted by some of his silly, and obviously false claims. He's a salesman selling plans to home builders. He's not the first and he's not the worst. I admire what he does, to a degree and I see the niche for it. I would prefer working with Brent than Bruce Roberts and I know Bruce quite well. Brent has extensive hands on experience with his build projects. Bruce does not. If I was building a boat of Brent's and had a problem I'm sure all I would have to do would be to shoot Brent an airline ticket, put himn up in the house for a couple of days and he would cut and weld my way out of trouble. He seems like that kind of guy. He probably charges a reasonable amount for his time and I'd gladly pay it if I were the client builder in trouble.

We have two colliding worlds here. And at this time I think I need to fall back on one of my very favorite movie quotes but let me paraphrase just a tad bit:

Janet, "I don't like steel boats."
Frankenfurter, "I didn't build it for you!"

God I hate trying to be a nice guy. But I know it's the adult thing to do.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

I think that Brent would be a hoot in small doses in person, kind of like a boat building Uncle Si Robertson.


----------



## jak3b

smackdaddy said:


> Okay, Brent, we can argue this all day long. Instead, I think it's better to open it up some...
> 
> *A QUESTION TO READERS OF THIS THREAD:
> 
> If you are thinking about a building or sailing a steel boat - does what you see in this thread make you more or less confident in investing your time and money into a Brent Swain boat?*


Not what Ive seen in this thread,No,but, Ive liked steel and wanted to learn to work it for awhile. I saw the Silas Crosby at Aquatic park when they stopped here a few years back.I found thier blog and have been following it since then.Its a great blog,Great trip,good photos,some vids.Steves an enjoyable writer and they seem to be enjoying the voyage and the boat.That blog alone could sell alot of plans for ya Brent.It gives a very realistic picture of what the boat is capable of.They have averaged 100 nm in 24 hours over the long haul which is what I would expect from a heavy, loaded 36 foot cruising boat.
His best DAYS run was 175 nm.Same with the Tagish circumnavigation blog.Nothing out the ordinary there either.They enjoy there boat and the cruise.I like the idea of origami construction.It peaked my curiosity.But I cant get around the look.The 31 has a nice sheer and a nice bow profile.It looks good in that 'John Deer' kind of way.Not pretty but "loyal" like she wont let ya down.The 36 sheer looks like its flat then rises in the middle like its hogged.Im not nockin John Deer by the way,I worked with a 1946 John Deer 2 cylinder diesel tractor in South Dakota( long story),That was an incredible machine.But I am a wood butcher at heart.I like wood.Forget all the fear mongering. I need my sub concious retrained like in the movie Inception. I see an old wood sailboat in the boat yard and I go into a trance,Like kid who finds a stray dog.My dream security team goes into action YOUR DREAMING!,RUN AWAY FROM THE OLD ROTTEN BOAT!.
Here a link to the Silas Crosby Blog
http://silascrosby.com/sail/


----------



## jak3b

Ive just seen a 1926 Hand schooner and am being saved by the dream security team.I worked on that Islander 36.I sail on her also.Great boat


----------



## bobperry

I agree with you Mark.


----------



## aeventyr60

smackdaddy said:


> Okay, Brent, we can argue this all day long. Instead, I think it's better to open it up some...
> 
> *A QUESTION TO READERS OF THIS THREAD:
> 
> If you are thinking about a building or sailing a steel boat - does what you see in this thread make you more or less confident in investing your time and money into a Brent Swain boat?*


I think it would be good. Brent is passionate about what he does and has the experience to back it up. With a little tweaking of some design features I'm sure somebody can get something quite nice. This is a hands on approach to boat building and will not be something the average person could realistically undertake. So, yes, if I wanted something bullet proof and had the time and inclination I would. Might give the design tweaking contract to Bob...


----------



## JomsViking

While I admire Your restraint, I don't see why we can't ask for documentation to back up just a few of Brent's claims. Guessed his answer would be along the lines of "it happened in the 80's so have no Pictures", because we have seen NOTHING to back up his claims.
All we have seen are some rusting hulks destroying our reefs and Waters like Nuthin Wong.

So to answer SmackO's question:


> A QUESTION TO READERS OF THIS THREAD:
> 
> If you are thinking about a building or sailing a steel boat - does what you see in this thread make you more or less confident in investing your time and money into a Brent Swain boat?


Based on what we have seen and heard in this (and other) threads re. Brent Swain boats I'd tell people to run away - not from steel, but from his boats.



bobperry said:


> Come on you guys. We are being a bit hard on Brent. He has his thing and he has earned his thing. Some of us don't want it and we are insulted by some of his silly, and obviously false claims. He's a salesman selling plans to home builders. He's not the first and he's not the worst. I admire what he does, to a degree and I see the niche for it. I would prefer working with Brent than Bruce Roberts and I know Bruce quite well. Brent has extensive hands on experience with his build projects. Bruce does not. If I was building a boat of Brent's and had a problem I'm sure all I would have to do would be to shoot Brent an airline ticket, put himn up in the house for a couple of days and he would cut and weld my way out of trouble. He seems like that kind of guy. He probably charges a reasonable amount for his time and I'd gladly pay it if I were the client builder in trouble.
> 
> We have two colliding worlds here. And at this time I think I need to fall back on one of my very favorite movie quotes but let me paraphrase just a tad bit:
> 
> Janet, "I don't like steel boats."
> Frankenfurter, "I didn't build it for you!"
> 
> God I hate trying to be a nice guy. But I know it's the adult thing to do.


----------



## jak3b

Here is a "tweaked" origami boat from YM Tanton.Its the Imagiro 35


----------



## SloopJonB

If I was planning on building a boat for going cruising open endedly I would seriously investigate one of Brent's boats. He lives nearby so I could go to the source, sail on one of them, possibly even see one being folded up and so forth.

I've never been a big fan of conically developed boats because of all the corners but the origami process improves that a lot.

Nothing I've read here would send me running away. Brent is kind of messianic about his methods but that's O/K - it wouldn't degrade the boat in my view. Probably a lot of it is purely a defensive reaction to a lot of the more negative commentary here.

The bullet proof quality and the twin fin/beach-ability aspects have a definite appeal, as does the welded instead of bolted deck hardware - for that kind of use. I wouldn't particularly want one (steel) for local cruising.

Much of the negative opinion expressed here relates to the "workboat" aesthetics he prefers but that is easily remedied during construction - plenty simple to mount sleek hatches instead of submarine hatches and so forth.

The fact is that his boats have made many successful trans-oceanic voyages so there is no reason to dismiss the concept simply because Brent tends to stand on a fairly tall soap box. 

I always enjoyed Speakers Corner in Hyde Park as well.


----------



## bobperry

"Brent is kind of messianic about his methods"

That doesn't bother me. It's the total BS (the mythical and non existant 28' custom Perry alu boat for instance) he posts about his boats and the constant attacks on anything that is not his product that indicates to me we are dealing with someone who has a very narrow perspective of yachting. If I were to work with someone I would prefer to work with someone who is a little more open minded.


----------



## jak3b

I hear ya there Bob.If wanted to argue,and be belittled about my choices Id get married.JK


----------



## JomsViking

bobperry said:


> "Brent is kind of messianic about his methods"
> 
> That doesn't bother me. It's the total BS (the mythical and non existant 28' custom Perry alu boat for instance) he posts about his boats and the constant attacks on anything that is not his product that indicates to me we are dealing with someone who has a very narrow perspective of yachting. If I were to work with someone I would prefer to work with someone who is a little more open minded.


And stating that you will survive a grounding just because it's built of steel, which is false and dangerous claims. Going to sea with that impression might be fatal, and the basis for my concerns.
If a Company - say medico - states that you can survive jumping off a bridge if you eat their latest pill, would you trust them and their other products?


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> "Brent is kind of messianic about his methods"
> 
> That doesn't bother me. It's the total BS (the mythical and non existant 28' custom Perry alu boat for instance) he posts about his boats and the constant attacks on anything that is not his product that indicates to me we are dealing with someone who has a very narrow perspective of yachting. If I were to work with someone I would prefer to work with someone who is a little more open minded.


Oh, definitely. You'd have to want one of HIS boats to get involved. Even then I suspect you'd get a lot of arguments about "yachting" the boat up.

My comments were made in the context of wanting basically what he's offering.

Most messiahs are pretty narrow folks. At least his adherents haven't put out a fatwa on you Bob.


----------



## Brent Swain

After 4 1/2 months of pounbing on an open ocean coral reef "Nuthin Wong" is off and floating with no leaks . Most of her gear has been returned or replaced. She has been cleaned up and repainted. Clive would sell her for $30K , then spend the money on a smaller origami boat.
I have never claimed that an origami boat could survive any grounding, just that many have ( read 'Around the world on Viski" by Don Shore) making your odds of surviving such a grounding exponentially greater. 
A slight variation of the deck shape makes for variations in the sheer line on any origami boat, without changing the underwater shape much. I think Benteau, Hunter and Jeneau could greatly benefit by hiring Bob to get the uglieness out of their boats. He has the eye for shape, which their designers definitely don't.

My hatches are definitely far easier to use than the sliding hatch contraptions, which you have to disassemble and reassemble every time you go thru them in bad weather. Sliding hatches are definitely a throw back , grossly outdated . Van de Stadt gave them up long ago, as have the round the world racers. Try sell a house who's only access is thru such a contraption as a sliding hatch and drop boards! They would be partially justified, if they were more watertight, but they are the opposite , impossible to get watertight . A once piece door is as watertight as the lid on a pressure cooker, and far easier to use that a sliding hatch . The trick is to give the back of the wheelhouse a 25 degree slope. 
One couple on one of my 31 footers tried sliding hatch and drop boards. After many close scrapes almost suffering serious injury from the contraption, going from BC to California, they switched back to a door, and then sailed on to England.

When I asked the owner of the alminium boat( Carmella) who the designer was, he said "Bob Perry " I didn't ask him for proof.


----------



## bobperry

Yeah Brent, most of us are very aware that your boats have a penchant for running aground. I find it quite funny. Even funnier was your reason why.

I'm not offerring my design services to anyone other than my own clients. I think the boats you speak of Brent are very well designed boats, extremely well designed. Do I like them? No, not really but I do recognize good design even when it's not to my taste. I work at keeping my mind open. My pal Tom calls those boats the "bloated tennis shoe" look. "Euro design" is not my style.

Here are a few photos just to emphasize that Brent and I work in entorely different worlds. Two of these pics show the PSC 62' ketch having some paint tests done. It will be a black hull. The other two pics show the 62' Sliver Project keel finally attached to its bulb and the owner's son Derek standing next to the dainty and beautiful stern.

Note the reflections in the black hull test. I like shiny boats.

I guess I am gloating. Not sure exactly how you gloat but I'm giving it a go. I am very, very happy with my slice of the yachting world.


----------



## jak3b

Very nice Bob.Interesting how different they are but the same length.


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## bobperry

Jak:
Yep, it's almost hard to imagine two boats less alike in proportions and complexity.
The PSC boat weighs more than twice what the Sliver Project weighs.


----------



## jak3b

I like the picture of Derek next to the Stern. Very low freeboard. That will be something sitting to leeward in the cockpit, the water flying by.The sensation should be wild.Good on ya Bob.


----------



## bobperry

Jak:
I'll let you know how it works out. I put a lot of effort into those stern sections. This is not a shape dictated by a geometry method. This is my eye trying to make the water work for me. I think I am right. I'll know soon.


----------



## jak3b

She sure looks right Bob,I have no doubt.


----------



## bobperry

jak:
I always have some doubts. That's what dives me. I always want the next one to be better.


----------



## bljones

bobperry said:


> Not sure exactly how you gloat but I'm giving it a go.


You've nailed it. That's cool, though, you've earned the right.
(Dammit, there I go, giving you a pass once more, when you have assured me you don't need one.  )


----------



## jak3b

I hope you have many more of those kind of projects and clients then.The keel is really impressive. I know you got alot comments about her draft .I was on a pier their in Seattle a few years back. I was looking in the water.It looked about 6' deep then I saw the tide guage board.It was 38', I thought Wow, the water here is clear. and deep!.People I was with told me that was pretty shallow for the area.


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## blt2ski

Where the keel is and to the right is how close I got the one day to the sliver project. Being as they were sanding the hull, I decided not to get too much closer! Hull looked nice from that distance any how!

Marty


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## mark2gmtrans

Bob, as always, those are nice looking boats. I am sure that they are both going to be very fast, and will sail well. Perhaps Brent will post some shiny hull photos from some of his boats.


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## bobperry

BLJ:
I've worked hard ad long to get it right. My standards are very high. Once and a while I can say, "That's really good." I don't always believe it but I'm sure I am getting close.
I have a few years left to get it really right. I'll keep trying. The trying is the fun part.

I do not relate at all to any designer who thinks he has it all down perfect. I won't mention any names or initials. You might as well sit on the porch and enjoy the perfection. That's not me.


----------



## jak3b

Sit on the porch with their disciples surrounding them basking in the glow of that perfection.Dispensing perfect wisdom about matters large and small, then they come to and shuffle off back to Earth.


----------



## chall03

I googled 'Brent Swain' and 'Robert Perry' with terms like 'yacht','sailboat' ,'design' and 'cruising'.

The first image that came up for Brent Swain.










The first image that came up for Bob Perry.










The prosecution rests.


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## bobperry

Nice work Chall. You're making me look good.


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## blt2ski

I guess this all comes down to the eye of the beholder. I would rather have and FR10 than the BP boat chall showed.......but then again, I have a different taste than others. If it were Icon.....I'd take that too! That looks WAY to cruisy for me.

Marty


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## smackdaddy

Here's an origami design by Tad Roberts:










That's starting to look a bit nicer.

PS - this image also showed up in that same search:


----------



## Classic30

bobperry said:


> Here are a few photos just to emphasize that Brent and I work in entorely different worlds. Two of these pics show the PSC 62' ketch having some paint tests done. It will be a black hull. The other two pics show the 62' Sliver Project keel finally attached to its bulb and the owner's son Derek standing next to the dainty and beautiful stern.
> 
> Note the reflections in the black hull test. I like shiny boats.


Bob, I assume you also give the owner a rotary polisher and instructions on how to use it (for the Term Of His Natural Life) as a launching-day gift??  

That reminds me of a famous quote from another designer, almost as well-known as yourself:

_"One day I shall have two boats exactly the same. I shall sail in one and look back at the other to extract the last ounce of pleasure from my labour. And if it happens that I cannot have two lovely boats and become bitter, I shall sail around in the ugliest of boats I can find, looking at everyone else's nice boat, whilst they have to avert their gaze from mine." _​
I know many people who have taken his advice - but without all your shiny boats for them to look at, it kinda doesn't work...


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## bobperry

Classic:
"That reminds me of a famous quote from another designer, almost as well-known as yourself:"

Oh, come on now. If you are going to make snide remarks you surley can make better ones than that. It's just not clever or illuminating. In short, it's drivel.

I recommend the Jack London school of Composition. You can find it on line I'm sure.

It will try to teach you to say EXACTLY what you are trying to say with a minimum of words. Give that a go. Because I cannot figure out what you are trying to say. Is English a second language for you?

Tad's boat looks quite nice to me. A bit simplistic but the basics look fine. I think details define a boat. Tad's image looks a bit like a kid's bathtub toy.
But I like it. That is my kibnd of boat.


----------



## Classic30

bobperry said:


> Classic:
> "That reminds me of a famous quote from another designer, almost as well-known as yourself:"
> 
> Oh, come on now. If you are going to make snide remarks you surley can make better ones than that. It's just not clever or illuminating. In short, it's drivel.
> 
> I recommend the Jack London school of Composition. You can find it on line I'm sure.
> 
> It will try to teach you to say EXACTLY what you are trying to say with a minimum of words. Give that a go. Because I cannot figure out what you are trying to say. Is English a second language for you?


Bob, "English" is certainly not a second language for me (though "American" might be..  ) - and despite the long-winded quote, given his accent I imagine it isn't a second language for Colin Mudie either.

Snide remark? Yes it was... but it was never intended to cause offence since I like looking at "shiny boats" just as much as the next guy. I was merely pointing out the oft-forgotten fact that "shiny boats" mean continuous hard work for the owner and/or his various boat-slaves, whilst the rest of admire, hands in pockets, from a distance...


----------



## aeventyr60

It would be interesting to see a BS origami boat done up correctly. Even a bit of shine would be good. Do the builders/owners/engineers not get it? Not sure why they aren't able to come up with a single picture of something we could ooooo and ahhhhhhh about.


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## smackdaddy

I think the basic issue is this guy:










He's the builder/owner of "Nuthin' Wong" - a Brentboat. And, if you look at his blog, he's actually the closest thing to Brent's cruising ideal than ANY of his other clients. This guy is the Brent Swain Apostle - eschewing "treadmill society" at every turn, allegedly liberating money and materiel from anyone that crosses his path. I mean, where have you heard this schpiel before (from NW's blog):



> "To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise, you are doomed to a routine traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen who play with their boats at sea&#8230; cruising it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the wonderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in.
> 
> If you are contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is all about. "I've always wanted to sail to the south seas, but I can't afford it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of security. And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine - and before we know it our lives are gone.
> 
> What does a man need - really need? A few pounds of food each day, heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in - and some form of working activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all - in the material sense, and we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention for the sheer idiocy of the charade. The years thunder by, the dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it, the tomb is sealed.
> 
> Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life?"


Yet Brent throws him under the bus. It's interesting to say the least.


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## aeventyr60

I read that ditty. I think it is from Sterling Hayden. Glad I stepped off the treadmill on one of Bob's boats.


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## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> Quote:
> "To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise, you are doomed to a routine traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen who play with their boats at sea&#8230; cruising it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the wonderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in.
> 
> If you are contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is all about. "I've always wanted to sail to the south seas, but I can't afford it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of security. And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine - and before we know it our lives are gone.
> 
> What does a man need - really need? A few pounds of food each day, heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in - and some form of working activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all - in the material sense, and we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention for the sheer idiocy of the charade. The years thunder by, the dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it, the tomb is sealed.
> 
> Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life?"


What complete and utter pretentious bull$hit - if you're not poor your experiences aren't "genuine"?


----------



## outbound

Curious about opinions on boat colors. Thought black on steel boats was initially due to the color of coal tars. Thought white came from the great H's " white and the wrong color" . Looking around here see I P tan,a lot of white, faded reds and blues, and few black with the AC running all the time.


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## bobperry

Chall:
You are most probably right about Classic. I retract my rant.


----------



## SloopJonB

outbound said:


> Curious about opinions on boat colors. Thought black on steel boats was initially due to the color of coal tars. Thought white came from the great H's " white and the wrong color" . Looking around here see I P tan,a lot of white, faded reds and blues, and few black with the AC running all the time.


Flag blue seems to be rapidly becoming the new white.


----------



## bobperry

One of my clients just shot this photo of WILD HORSES leaving the Perry Rendezvous. This is the alu hull, composite deck boat and now a live aboard getting ready to head for the South Pacific.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

bobperry said:


> One of my clients just shot this photo of WILD HORSES leaving the Perry Rendezvous. This is the alu hull, composite deck boat and now a live aboard getting ready to head for the South Pacific.


Awesome boat.


----------



## bobperry

Thanks Mark. WILD HORSES is a about ten years old now and I still can't see anything I would change. The owners love it. They moved up from a Nordic 44. Big move.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

bobperry said:


> Thanks Mark. WILD HORSES is a about ten years old now and I still can't see anything I would change. The owners love it. They moved up from a Nordic 44. Big move.


Wow, that was a big move, is WILD HORSES rigged for just the two of them to be able to easily handle it?

I watched a video on a Hanse 57' that is designed to be easily handled by a couple. In fact the self tacking jib and the lines being run properly it looked like a person in good physical shape could fairly easily single hand it, and it is a HUGE boat on the inside. If I have a half dozen rich relatives kick off and leave me a huge inheritance, I might be able to afford one. ( Unfortunately I do not have any rich relatives who are childless, and I certainly do not have any I would trade for a boat.)

I will end up with something much more economically reasonable, but I can dream.


----------



## bobperry

Mark:
The original owner of WH, Tully, was 75 when the boat was launched and he sailed the boat by himself. Tully is a big, tough man who knows sailing well. Dale and Tina have done a lot of offshore sailing and they have a 6' tall, 12 year old son who was born cruising the So Pac. I imagine he is quite skilled at sailing by now. I've never asked Dale and Tina how easy the boat was for them to sail. They have never said it wasn't easy. Sheets lead to within easy reeach of the helmsman. The only thing I don't like about the way the boat is rigged is the high boom and the lazy jacks/StakPak combo are a bit awkward when you want to stow the lazy jacks alongside the boom and roll the StakPak up. But my own experiences sailing the boat have shown it to be a big pussycat. Draft is 8'6" with a fin and bulb keel and a big spade rudder. Total displ is around 32,000 lbs. in current trim. It's been so,me time since I measured freeboards so that's a guess.


----------



## SloopJonB

Just out of curiosity, what was the thinking behind the composite decks instead of more aluminium?


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
Simple, lighter weight. The builder, James Betts, had built several boats in this method before.


----------



## outbound

Great boat and story. Story gives hope to a old fart like me that I can be sailing until you read my obit. Hope is great gift. Bob thanks so much for sharing.


----------



## outbound

Wonder if any one has experience with explosive bonding. Believed used to get leak free bond between steel hull and aluminum deck. Never understood why that wouldn't set up a battery with the aluminum disappearing. Believe they make strips- steel one side aluminum the other then weld them in at transition from hull to deck.


----------



## Brent Swain

Cruising with 8 ft 6 inch draft sounds like a huge pain in the ass. I have met people cruising with that kind of draft, and they all agreed with me.Love my 4 ft draft.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> I think the basic issue is this guy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's the builder/owner of "Nuthin' Wong" - a Brentboat. And, if you look at his blog, he's actually the closest thing to Brent's cruising ideal than ANY of his other clients. This guy is the Brent Swain Apostle - eschewing "treadmill society" at every turn, allegedly liberating money and materiel from anyone that crosses his path. I mean, where have you heard this schpiel before (from NW's blog):
> 
> Yet Brent throws him under the bus. It's interesting to say the least.


 Well said Clive.
Reminds me of the couple I met in New Zealand, Al and Helen, on their third circumnavigation in a funky old wooden Carol cruiser. Some rich young yuppie, expensively dressed , would step out of an expensive car and say
"That's what I have always wanted to do." Al would reply "You have more money than we have ever had , you have no excuse to not be doing it, so you are lying. You simply don't want to do it or you would be doing it."


----------



## Brent Swain

JomsViking said:


> Brent,
> 
> Pictures and documentation or it didn't happen.
> For a starter;
> Pictures of the actual non-welded internal.
> Pictures of the filler
> Case documents.
> 
> Get some of the owners to write here on SN (I wouldn't pick Nuthin Wong, though)
> 
> That way you just might start (re)building credibility.
> 
> Respectfully
> /Joms


The ice age? No photos ? Didn't happen?
The French revolution ? No photos? Didn't happen?
The battle of the Little Bighorn? No photos? Didn't happen!
US war of independence? No photos ? Didn't happen!
Personal stories of the holocaust? No photos? Never happened!
Your childhood memories ? Not enough photos to document every day? 98% of them didn't happen! 
Boy, you type well for a toddler!
Testimony in most court cases? No photos? Never happened!
Criminals love jurors like you.
When a Campbell River bus driver told me the natives here never owned the land, because they never paid for it ( as opposed to Columbus, who bought it off several real estate agents?), I though I was hearing the stupidest comment humanly possible!

I stand corrected!


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Well said Clive.
> blah...


Sigh. Brent, dude, Clive didn't say it. Do you ever get _anything_ right?

And why did you distance yourself from Clive earlier in this thread?










Is he one of the clients you called a "drunk" or "dope smoker" earlier?

You seem really fickle in your friendships.


----------



## bobperry

Brent:

You seem a bit angry tonight. Not everyone wants to do it your way. Live and let live makes sense to me.

I know this couple well and they are quite experienced. I don't think you have to worry much about ever having to get along with them. Tyhe husband is a commercial builder and he lkies quality things including quality boats. They like beautiful boats and they like boats that go to weather. 4' draft would be a pain in the ass to try to drive to weather. This is fact, not theory. Unless you have VPP data that you can post here to prove otherwise. Your hyperbolic performance claims don't work for me. But you don't have VPP data. I already know that.

BTW: It's only 8' draft, not 8.5'. I fibbed.


----------



## blt2ski

Can I get 8' of draft on my 28LOD boat? that would be better than the 5.5'.....maybe, sorta kinda..............deeper is better............oh I could say more, but fuzzy down under would probably delete me.....or it would be better on SA than here.........hmmmmmmmm.......


----------



## bobperry

While I am going on about beautiful boats I think I should post this shot of my 62' double ender. Paint is now on hull and deck. I really like this angle from the stern.


----------



## JomsViking

Talking about the PRESENT (not past, not future) what can you show us then?
Based on your reply, we can conclude that you *cannot* provide any Pictures, Case documents, nor get any current owners to write on SN about their BS boats.

While probably a bit oversimplified and blunt it WAS an honest question, as you have shown us nothing to underpin any of your claims, and you're deliberately being demagogic and changing the subject.



Brent Swain said:


> The ice age? No photos ? Didn't happen?
> The French revolution ? No photos? Didn't happen?
> The battle of the Little Bighorn? No photos? Didn't happen!
> US war of independence? No photos ? Didn't happen!
> Personal stories of the holocaust? No photos? Never happened!
> Your childhood memories ? Not enough photos to document every day? 98% of them didn't happen!
> Boy, you type well for a toddler!
> Testimony in most court cases? No photos? Never happened!
> Criminals love jurors like you.
> When a Campbell River bus driver told me the natives here never owned the land, because they never paid for it ( as opposed to Columbus, who bought it off several real estate agents?), I though I was hearing the stupidest comment humanly possible!
> 
> I stand corrected!


----------



## bobperry

"demagogic"? I heard that word on TV once.


----------



## JomsViking

bobperry said:


> "demagogic"? I heard that word on TV once.


Since elitist was being used so frequently i needed to up the ante...


----------



## mark2gmtrans

bobperry said:


> While I am going on about beautiful boats I think I should post this shot of my 62' double ender. Paint is now on hull and deck. I really like this angle from the stern.


Coming or going that is a beautiful boat.


----------



## bobperry

Thank you Mark. We are after that "Wow! What is that?" effect.


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> The ice age? No photos ? Didn't happen?
> The French revolution ? No photos? Didn't happen?
> The battle of the Little Bighorn? No photos? Didn't happen!
> US war of independence? No photos ? Didn't happen!
> Personal stories of the holocaust? No photos? Never happened!
> Your childhood memories ? Not enough photos to document every day? 98% of them didn't happen!
> Boy, you type well for a toddler!
> Testimony in most court cases? No photos? Never happened!
> Criminals love jurors like you.
> When a Campbell River bus driver told me the natives here never owned the land, because they never paid for it ( as opposed to Columbus, who bought it off several real estate agents?), I though I was hearing the stupidest comment humanly possible!
> 
> I stand corrected!


Brent I have listened to some lunatics rant and dribble during my time on Sailnet, but some of your posts are starting to take the cake.

When you start quoting the ice age and the holocaust in a thread about yacht design is right about the time you need to look in the mirror and realise that maybe your boats do just suck.


----------



## JomsViking

chall03 said:


> Brent I have listened to some lunatics rant and dribble during my time on Sailnet, but some of your posts are starting to take the cake.
> 
> When you start quoting the ice age and the holocaust in a thread about yacht design is right about the time you need to look in the mirror and realise that maybe your boats do just suck.


Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## bobperry

I am verfy lucky to have a trusted family member to send out to supervise the building of my boats.



Thanks to my buddy Rapser for this editing.


----------



## Brent Swain

chall03 said:


> Brent I have listened to some lunatics rant and dribble during my time on Sailnet, but some of your posts are starting to take the cake.
> 
> When you start quoting the ice age and the holocaust in a thread about yacht design is right about the time you need to look in the mirror and realise that maybe your boats do just suck.


The suggestion that anything which was never photographed "didn't happen" was the looniest thing I have ever seen posted. It deserved my entirely appropriate challenge .


----------



## bobperry

Well,,,,maybe not quite a "loonie" as why your boats end up on the rocks so frequently. That was a true classic of "stupid speak".


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Well,,,,maybe not quite a "loonie" as why your boats end up on the rocks so frequently. That was a true classic of "stupid speak".


Mine survive , yours break up , or get lost at sea without a trace. Your suggestion that if you build a boat which wont survive a grounding, or collision , it will never happen, is super loonie. Shows an abysmal lack of hands on cruising experience.


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
There you go with BS stupid speak once again. Give me one documented case of one of my boats "lost at sea without a trace". Well documented. Just because you say it doesn't mean anything. You make stuff up. You invent "facts". Many of us here know that all too well.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Brent:
> There you go with BS stupid speak once again. Give me one documented case of one of my boats "lost at sea without a trace". Well documented. Just because you say it doesn't mean anything. You make stuff up. You invent "facts". Many of us here know that all too well.


"I once had a friend in Raratonga tell me that he and his fragile, yachtie, Bob Perry boat were lost at sea without a trace. I believed him." - Brent Swain


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Jon:
> Simple, lighter weight. The builder, James Betts, had built several boats in this method before.


Bob.
You mentioned guy elsewhere on this site, who spent a fortune on a carbon fibre mast. After extensive cruising, he said the improvement was minimal, almost unnoticeable . What was the cost differential between the composite decks and the aluminiumn one? What was the price tag on the composite one?
Aluminum has the advantage of letting you weld most of your deck hardware down, eliminating any chance of deck leaks. A USanian in a plastic boat, a week or so ago, told me he has to re-bed most of his deck hardware every few years, to stop them from leaking . He said the strictest adherence to the directions hasn't solved the recurring problem. Given that substantial weight savings high up in a mast has given minimal improvement , how would such savings much lower down, at deck level, be enough to justify the expense, and deck leaks ?
This is the kind of blind worshipping of so called "High tech", which keeps so many boats in a marina for most of their lives, while the more practical, realistic and enlightened enjoy far emptier anchorages than would other wise be the case.
I guess I should be thanking the pedlars of high tech, for keeping my favorite anchorages free from over crowding, by the gullible deciples of the "Consumerism " religion.


----------



## bobperry

You also had a buddy that outsailed a custom 28' alu Bob Perry boat. Another made up story. That boat never existed. "You are enititled to your own opinions. Not your own facts."


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
We never costed out an alu deck. It just was never in the picture. We were after light weight and a beautful deck structure and composite was the way to get it and a method this builder was very familiar with. It wasn't cheap so it's not for you Brent. The result is very handsome.

Still waiting for the documented "lost at sea" story. Or are you trying to change the subject?


----------



## Classic30

In a vain and possibly quite pointless attempt to get this thread back on topic.. 



outbound said:


> Wonder if any one has experience with explosive bonding. Believed used to get leak free bond between steel hull and aluminum deck. Never understood why that wouldn't set up a battery with the aluminum disappearing. Believe they make strips- steel one side aluminum the other then weld them in at transition from hull to deck.


Also called metal-metal bonding.

There are a few different ways to do it (including using rather dangerous explosive strips), but the result is the same: mixing of the two metals at a molecular level and the join is seamless and seriously permanent.

You need an electrolyte between two surfaces to form a battery but because the two metals are in "intimate contact", a battery can't be set up - hence none of the electrolytic action you might expect in a typical bonding situation.

It is widely used in everything from aircraft and spacecraft manufacture to high-tech ship-building but even after decades of development it is still a pretty expensive way to join metals.


----------



## bobperry

I have held that material in my hand and marvelled at it. I think they used it on Navy ships where they wanted a light weight super structure. I forget the name of the specific material I saw. Ther was almost a saw toothed layer where the two metals joined. I'm surprised that Brent doesn't know something about this.


----------



## bobperry

"Bimetalic transition inserts" I Googled it. Took three Google tries.
That is not the name I recall.


----------



## Brent Swain

This type of bonding was discussed on the origami boats site a while back. One guy said they tried it for a few days, threw away the strips, and bolted the aluminum cabin on a stainless strip, welded to the steel decks. I have heard the Canadian coast guard built several steel hulls and decks with aluminium cabins, which were successful. On a sail boat, with such small and light cabinsides, switching from steel to aluminum at the cabin top cabin side joint would make far more sense.
While a good explosive contact between the two may eliminate corrosion there, they are still two dissimilar metals, right next to one another, in electrical contact. However, I have heard this has not been a problem. Maybe an overlapping layer of epoxy on both sandblasted surfaces solves the problem. I have heard that putting the transition point well above the deck splash zone minimizes corrosion on the aluminium.

Bob. Do you record every radio and TV documentary and news item, and save every newspaper clipping you ever come across, in case someone asks you, decades in the future, for a reference? Do you try keep them all on a 31 footer ,while trying to live aboard?
Didn't think so!
Neither do I!
Time you got back to reality!


----------



## aeventyr60

I got lost at sea on one of Bob's boats. Best 14 years of my life.


----------



## outbound

BS- My mom only raised gentlemen so I'll try to do this politely. I cruise. I go offshore. I think coastal is actually more dangerous than offshore as more things to hit. I think we get very reliable weather for 3-5d but questionable after that.I have no expectation of high latitude sailing. I look at the gribs every day offshore. I think I'm safer in a boat with a collusion bulkhead that sails well,comfortably and fast than one that does not. My time at sea is likely to be shorter and more pleasant. I have never had a hard grounding and maybe one or two soft touches in 3+ decades of sailing. I trust but verify. I have one life. I pay attention to my senses, the GPS, DR, my instruments. Your inability to post sailing polars or basic statistics about your boats means you only have your word to back you up. I know the performance of my boat and Bob's boats. Your repetitive diatribe does not move the discussion forward. The original post asked for the pluses and minuses of steel boat. We have heard you believe they are more puncture proof. I believe running into the corner of a semi submersed container will hole them. You believe they will survive a hard grounding. I believe hard groundings should be avoided and unless the sacrifice made for day to day sailing is minor that is not a major concern. You believe they require no more maintenance than a glass boat. I believe that may be true but requires skills I do not currently have and minor neglect may place the boat at risk. Bob has repetitively asked for any OBJECTIVE evidence of your claims. Your stories were of interest the first time you told them. At this point they are old. I believe you have a store of knowledge I don't have and wish you would share that instead of involving yourself in an seemingly endless and fruitless defense of your boats.
What can be done to decrease maintenance concerns on steel boats?
What can be done to mitigate the poor performance related to hull weight?
What can be done to improve hull shape?
What are the upsides and downsides of integrated tanks?
Are hybrid boats (steel hull, Al or cored decks) worth the effort?
Are there particular concerns about wiring, electronics, compass etc. and how are they circumvented?
What are particular concerns in designing interiors and building them in steel hulls?
What things should not be done by neophytes like me when building in steel i.e. what's better left to professionals?
Is it easier to build upside down and roll or right side up?
Sharing your knowledge and experience may lead more people to embarking into steel than the endless argument you seem hopelessly trapped in.


----------



## bobperry

No Brent, obviously not. Let's keep this adult.
But I don't shoot my mouth off with made up stories and "facts" whenever I need them to bolster another BS argument. That's the difference. You want to say someting to attack me you had better be ready to back it up. Problem is that you make stuff up. You have yet been able to back up any of your attacks. Your credibility here is pretty low.

Are you going to be angry all night? Again? Do you spit when you talk?
What a pita that must be. I think I'll go put a new Buzz Bomb on my pole and see if I can hook another salmon today.

Thanks Aeventyr: That was nice of you to say. I'm amazed you are still alive.


----------



## tdw

tdw said:


> It surprised me that none of Calahan's books have been "Gutenberged". Well out of copyright and no longer in print they certainly qualify. I know I know I know ... turning pages is it own reward but its a damn sight easier to read a back lit tablet when snugged up in the cockpit at 0200 than a book.
> 
> Anyone interested should search Abe or Alibris. I ordered a copy yesterday for a couple of bucks. Postage to Oz was twice the cost of the book. Grrrr.


Off off topic but Calahan arriived yesterday. What a lovely book. Definitely going into the recommended reading section.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> BS- My mom only raised gentlemen so I'll try to do this politely. I cruise. I go offshore. I think coastal is actually more dangerous than offshore as more things to hit. I think we get very reliable weather for 3-5d but questionable after that.I have no expectation of high latitude sailing. I look at the gribs every day offshore. I think I'm safer in a boat with a collusion bulkhead that sails well,comfortably and fast than one that does not. My time at sea is likely to be shorter and more pleasant. I have never had a hard grounding and maybe one or two soft touches in 3+ decades of sailing. I trust but verify. I have one life. I pay attention to my senses, the GPS, DR, my instruments. Your inability to post sailing polars or basic statistics about your boats means you only have your word to back you up. I know the performance of my boat and Bob's boats. Your repetitive diatribe does not move the discussion forward. The original post asked for the pluses and minuses of steel boat. We have heard you believe they are more puncture proof. I believe running into the corner of a semi submersed container will hole them. You believe they will survive a hard grounding. I believe hard groundings should be avoided and unless the sacrifice made for day to day sailing is minor that is not a major concern. You believe they require no more maintenance than a glass boat. I believe that may be true but requires skills I do not currently have and minor neglect may place the boat at risk. Bob has repetitively asked for any OBJECTIVE evidence of your claims. Your stories were of interest the first time you told them. At this point they are old. I believe you have a store of knowledge I don't have and wish you would share that instead of involving yourself in an seemingly endless and fruitless defense of your boats.
> What can be done to decrease maintenance concerns on steel boats?
> What can be done to mitigate the poor performance related to hull weight?
> What can be done to improve hull shape?
> What are the upsides and downsides of integrated tanks?
> Are hybrid boats (steel hull, Al or cored decks) worth the effort?
> Are there particular concerns about wiring, electronics, compass etc. and how are they circumvented?
> What are particular concerns in designing interiors and building them in steel hulls?
> What things should not be done by neophytes like me when building in steel i.e. what's better left to professionals?
> Is it easier to build upside down and roll or right side up?
> Sharing your knowledge and experience may lead more people to embarking into steel than the endless argument you seem hopelessly trapped in.


To reduced maintenance ,start with clean steel . I get all my plate wheelabraded and primed with cold galvanizing primer, 87% zinc dry film by the steel supplier. My current boat was done that way and still has the 29 year old paint job, no problems. I gave mine 30 gallons of epoxy tar on a 31 ft boat, plus a coat of enamel every few years. Moitessier said the French navy puts ten coats of paint on before launching. The thicker the better. Most steel boat maintenance problems come from too thin a paint job, or painting over rust or mil scale. For many commercially built boats in BC, it comes from zero paint inside. Spat foam is not adequate protection for the inside of a steel boat. Three or more coats of epoxy tar inside before spray foaming is needed.
Wasser makes a urethane tar which is just as good as epoxy tar, the same price, and much more forgiving in recoat times. They also make some good zinc primers.
Flat well painted surfaces rarely chip. Corners are the main source of paint chipping. Trimming all outside corners with stainless reduces maintenance by roughly 80%. That is why I put stainless cabinside handrails on the edge of the cabinside, instead of inboard. It also makes things a bit safer 
To minimize maintenance, designers should simplify things as much as possible, eliminating corners and nooks and crannies, or do them in stainless where possible. I met a guy with a Waterline boat with a sharply reversed transom. He had trouble keeping paint on the sharp bottom corner of the transom. It was constantly being chipped. I suggested he replace the bottom tip with a stainless copy, or put a small vertical bit of stainless transom there. It would look good.

When working with a heavy material, the trick is to minimize overhang, to maximize the WL length to weight ratio. A large sail plan also helps a lot. 
Origami eliminates the chines in the bow and stern, eliminating the flow of water across hard points there. Midships chines are more parallel to water flow , altho one can always radius the chines there. Other wise you can make any hard chine hulk shape using origami methods. Mine sail well and have been well proven over decades.
I put a plexi window in the top of my built in tanks, so you can see the inside of the tank which is the hull skin , any time you lift a floor board. With removable tanks, you don't get to see the hull plate under them , until you have a problem and are forced to remove them, a problem you don't have with built in tanks. I make the inspection plate large enough to let me stick my head in, and see every inch of the inside of the tank and to reach every inch of the tank inside.
If I were rich I would consider aluminiumn cabin tops. I would never make the transition at the hull deck joint, which takes the entire twisting loads of a hull and is wet and a bad place for corrosion and deck leaks . As cabinsides on a sailboat are small and light especially with ports cut out I would make the transition to aluminiumn at the cabinside-cabin top point. I wouldn't consider cored fibreglass, as you would have to bolt your gear onto it , instead of welding.
There are no particular concerns about wiring. I suggest a plastic conduit along the hull- deck joint before foaming. Then you can pull whatever wiring you need thru any time.
I use big tabs, welded to the hull to bolt the bulkheads on. On the last boat I built, I tightened a piece of rigging wire, parallel to the centreline and waterline with a come along. Then I measured the spacing of bulkheads along this ,put a laser pointer on a square and used that along the wire to position the tabs for my bulkheads. It was extremely quick and simple.
I hang my interior off the bulkheads, on 2x3s fore and aft, nailed to the bulkheads.
More to come . The smoke from the leper colony ( Smoking section) is starting to blow into this pub .


----------



## Classic30

Brent Swain said:


> To reduced maintenance ,start with clean steel . I get all my plate wheelabraded and primed with cold galvanizing primer, 87% zinc dry film by the steel supplier. My current boat was done that way and still has the 29 year old paint job, no problems. I gave mine 30 gallons of epoxy tar on a 31 ft boat, plus a coat of enamel every few years. *Moitessier said the French navy puts ten coats of paint on before launching. The thicker the better.* Most steel boat maintenance problems come from too thin a paint job, or painting over rust or mil scale. For many commercially built boats in BC, it comes from zero paint inside. Spat foam is not adequate protection for the inside of a steel boat. Three or more coats of epoxy tar inside before spray foaming is needed.


Out of interest, the paint coating on the hull of a certain 80-something-year old ship I was associated with a while back was almost half-an-inch thick at the end of her ocean-going life. All nice thin layers like the rings of a tree spelling out the various paint colours and undercoats over the decades.. It was fascinating to see.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

bobperry said:


> Thank you Mark. We are after that "Wow! What is that?" effect.


Well Bob, you did that. I can't wait to see the final product, preferably under full sail.


----------



## bobperry

Thanks Mark. I can't wait to sail the boat.

Andrew:
That book is like a time capsule to a day when things were simple and fun.

Brent:
Sorry you live near a leper colony.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

Brent Swain said:


> To reduced maintenance ,start with clean steel . I get all my plate wheelabraded and primed with cold galvanizing primer, 87% zinc dry film by the steel supplier. My current boat was done that way and still has the 29 year old paint job, no problems. *I gave mine 30 gallons of epoxy tar on a 31 ft boat, plus a coat of enamel every few years.* Moitessier said the French navy puts ten coats of paint on before launching. The thicker the better. Most steel boat maintenance problems come from too thin a paint job, or painting over rust or mil scale. For many commercially built boats in BC, it comes from zero paint inside. Spat foam is not adequate protection for the inside of a steel boat. Three or more coats of epoxy tar inside before spray foaming is needed.
> Wasser makes a urethane tar which is just as good as epoxy tar, the same price, and much more forgiving in recoat times. They also make some good zinc primers.
> Flat well painted surfaces rarely chip. Corners are the main source of paint chipping. Trimming all outside corners with stainless reduces maintenance by roughly 80%. That is why I put stainless cabinside handrails on the edge of the cabinside, instead of inboard. It also makes things a bit safer
> To minimize maintenance, designers should simplify things as much as possible, eliminating corners and nooks and crannies, or do them in stainless where possible. I met a guy with a Waterline boat with a sharply reversed transom. He had trouble keeping paint on the sharp bottom corner of the transom. It was constantly being chipped. I suggested he replace the bottom tip with a stainless copy, or put a small vertical bit of stainless transom there. It would look good.
> 
> When working with a heavy material, the trick is to minimize overhang, to maximize the WL length to weight ratio. A large sail plan also helps a lot.
> Origami eliminates the chines in the bow and stern, eliminating the flow of water across hard points there. Midships chines are more parallel to water flow , altho one can always radius the chines there. Other wise you can make any hard chine hulk shape using origami methods. Mine sail well and have been well proven over decades.
> I put a plexi window in the top of my built in tanks, so you can see the inside of the tank which is the hull skin , any time you lift a floor board. With removable tanks, you don't get to see the hull plate under them , until you have a problem and are forced to remove them, a problem you don't have with built in tanks. I make the inspection plate large enough to let me stick my head in, and see every inch of the inside of the tank and to reach every inch of the tank inside.
> If I were rich I would consider aluminiumn cabin tops. I would never make the transition at the hull deck joint, which takes the entire twisting loads of a hull and is wet and a bad place for corrosion and deck leaks . As cabinsides on a sailboat are small and light especially with ports cut out I would make the transition to aluminiumn at the cabinside-cabin top point. I wouldn't consider cored fibreglass, as you would have to bolt your gear onto it , instead of welding.
> There are no particular concerns about wiring. I suggest a plastic conduit along the hull- deck joint before foaming. Then you can pull whatever wiring you need thru any time.
> I use big tabs, welded to the hull to bolt the bulkheads on. On the last boat I built, I tightened a piece of rigging wire, parallel to the centreline and waterline with a come along. Then I measured the spacing of bulkheads along this ,put a laser pointer on a square and used that along the wire to position the tabs for my bulkheads. It was extremely quick and simple.
> I hang my interior off the bulkheads, on 2x3s fore and aft, nailed to the bulkheads.
> More to come . The smoke from the leper colony ( Smoking section) is starting to blow into this pub .


Brent, my man you are not sailing a steel boat, you are sailing a paint boat. Almost one gallon per linear foot? How thick is it?


----------



## outbound

Thank you Brent. That was informative. What do you do welding? Do you grind edges to45 degrees to pull a good puddle? What do you think about flame zincing? Is there advantages to using closed cell sheets or do you foam in place? What about fire and toxic fume threats? Do you use heat sinks welding? Do you tack and wander to decrease distortion?


----------



## SloopJonB

aeventyr60 said:


> I got lost at sea on one of Bob's boats. Best 14 years of my life.


That was damned irresponsible of you.


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> The suggestion that anything which was never photographed "didn't happen" was the looniest thing I have ever seen posted. It deserved my entirely appropriate challenge .


No it wasn't and No it didn't.

Clearly it is rather difficult to now go and photograph and document the French Revolution.

*IT IS NOT DIFFICULT* for you however to produce some figures, some fact, some substance here to support your case. Dude even if you faked them it would of taken less energy than the hyperbole and conjecture that you continue to litter this thread with.

I like steel boats, I actually didn't mind your boats, obviously there are those that have built them, and cruise them, that's great. I actually enjoyed your initial contributions on here, but I am now seriously having the urge to ram BS designed boats on sight.

Take a hint Brent.


----------



## bobperry

"Yours break up , or get lost at sea without a trace"

I ask for documented proof of this statement and BS dissapears or tries to change the subject. He can dish it out but he can't back it up. He lies.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

Brent is probably just not able to understand that it is clearly obvious that he is, and has been, lying about the whole boat grinding on a reef, being in a hull speed collision with a cargo vessel, never needing maintenance thing. I kind of feel sorry for him, because the guy has some skills, is funny as all get out to have a conversation with on here, but he just does not get it. Some of us tried to explain the whole thing to him about how his hulls, or anyone else's would suffer severe damage in the situations he described, but he was not having it. Personally I think he can probably do a pretty good job at building one of HIS boats, I think he would have extreme issues with building a Bob Perry, Roger Long, Bruce Roberts or any other designer's boat because in all honesty, I do not think he follows a set of drawn plans very closely. The math would hurt his head, the complicated hull design drawings would make him dizzy, and the labor with anything other than steel might be a bit of a challenge as well. 

In truth he is like a lot of us, set in his ways, accustomed to the way he has been doing things, and not too eager to change. I know that I sometimes have issues with changing the way I do things, especially when the way I have been doing it has worked well for ME, but in my particular profession that government regulates changes almost daily, and those who do not study, and change their way of doing things get left behind. I think that Brent really could benefit from some time in Bob's offices studying with Bob and his group. He could learn the math and theory behind the designs, learn some aesthetics and interior layout techniques, learn how to look at a boat and actually see it, or develop his "eye" for the design, as some might put it. However, I think that after about ten minutes Bob might pound him over the head with a rubber mallet and toss him out the door, because Brent does not want to learn. Stubbornness is not an endearing trait when practiced to extremes, and Brent is an expert practitioner of stubbornness, and might also have a degree in prevarication as well.

So, as Brent trades shots with Bob, we get to learn about yacht design, and best of all it is free. The debate is often funny, the characters sometimes larger than life, and the claims on one side are just about comical, but in between the lines we get to learn from one who is a true master of design in all forms, and one who is actually a master in his own designs, though he makes us just about hate them with some of his claims. Brent, I would like to challenge you to become a better representative of your methods, not by more loudly proclaiming them to be just about indestructible, because they are not, but by actually giving some thought to the things you say, and not saying things that are fabrications, prevarications, or just plain outright lies, instead talk with us clearly and concisely about how you design and build the boats you build. You already know I think that your designs are slow, and not attractive, but I wonder why you do not attempt to design some that are more sleek, more attractive, and a bit faster. Please do not tell me that your boats will outrun racing boats, I know how to do the math, and your hull would have to have a sail that would sink it in order to make that kind of speed, so accept some help, and some constructive, although probably rough, criticism and improve your designs. You might find that being open to improve the design would net you more money, and you might also find that having more money is not as bad as you might think.


----------



## chall03

mark2gmtrans said:


> So, as Brent trades shots with Bob, we get to learn about yacht design, and best of all it is free. The debate is often funny, the characters sometimes larger than life, and the claims on one side are just about comical, but in between the lines we get to learn from one who is a true master of design in all forms, and one who is actually a master in his own designs, though he makes us just about hate them with some of his claims. Brent, I would like to challenge you to become a better representative of your methods, not by more loudly proclaiming them to be just about indestructible, because they are not, but by actually giving some thought to the things you say


+1

Yup.


----------



## bobperry

Glad I can contribute to the entertainment and education around here. We all muck in. I learn here too. I'm also entertained here. It's really a pretty good place to hang out.


----------



## JomsViking

Brent Swain said:


> The suggestion that anything which was never photographed "didn't happen" was the looniest thing I have ever seen posted. It deserved my entirely appropriate challenge .


To anyone that interpreted the post like that, please seek help, you have serious brain damage and need immediate help.


----------



## bobperry

Oopps! I had to edit my last post. Not sure how I did that but it was 4:30 am and before coffee.


----------



## smackdaddy

chall03 said:


> No it wasn't and No it didn't.
> 
> Clearly it is rather difficult to now go and photograph and document the French Revolution.
> 
> *IT IS NOT DIFFICULT* for you however to produce some figures, some fact, some substance here to support your case. Dude even if you faked them it would of taken less energy than the hyperbole and conjecture that you continue to litter this thread with.
> 
> I like steel boats, I actually didn't mind your boats, obviously there are those that have built them, and cruise them, that's great. I actually enjoyed your initial contributions on here, but I am now seriously having the urge to ram BS designed boats on sight.
> 
> Take a hint Brent.


Personally, I'd be somewhat satisfied seeing some current pics of Brent's own Steel Perfection. What does a boat that gets $50 and 2 hours of maintenance per year, for 30 years, look like - as it really is...now? Pics of the perfect steel under the foam - pics of the perfect paint job - pics of the perfectly good old line and sails - pics of the salvaged parts - pics of the $2 blocks that have held up perfectly for years - that kind of stuff.

Whaddaya say, Brent? It's not like this stuff is the Ice Age or anything.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Personally, I'd be somewhat satisfied seeing some current pics of Brent's own Steel Perfection. What does a boat that gets $50 and 2 hours of maintenance per year, for 30 years, look like - as it really is...now? Pics of the perfect steel under the foam - pics of the perfect paint job - pics of the perfectly good old line and sails - pics of the salvaged parts - pics of the $2 blocks that have held up perfectly for years - that kind of stuff.
> 
> Whaddaya say, Brent? It's not like this stuff is the Ice Age or anything.


You can see the pics of my boat etc on the origamiboats site. Posted pics of my blocks on anythingsailing.com before I gave up on that site. Dont have the means of posting pics out here on the cruising grounds.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Thank you Brent. That was informative. What do you do welding? Do you grind edges to45 degrees to pull a good puddle? What do you think about flame zincing? Is there advantages to using closed cell sheets or do you foam in place? What about fire and toxic fume threats? Do you use heat sinks welding? Do you tack and wander to decrease distortion?


I use mostly 6011 for uphand and overhead and 7024 for horizontal downhand
I use 316 stainless sticks for stainless and stainless to steel welding
I grind edges to 45 for full penetration, where needed. The chine and centreline etc are already open. 
Flame spraying is an excellent way of eliminating paint job maintenance. I wrote extensively on this subject a few posts back.
Tried sheet foam, and no matter how hard I tried to get a sealed vapour barrier in front of it, it kept things soaking wet behind them with condensation
Sprayfoams is the only realistic long term solution I have found. Friends tried sheet foam and found it cost as much as spray foam by the time they were done, and a huge amount of work.
A friend priced the foaming kits now available in Home Hardware. They look like a couple of propane bottles that you hook up to a mixing nozzle .He said they cost about half the cost of having a foamer come in, and are easy to use.
One of my 36 footers caught fire in Frisco Bay .Dispite intense heat, the fire went only as far as where he had painted it with cheap latex paint. The fire would go no further. Couldnt get enough oxygen.
I try to keep my welds short, to minimize distortion, more in some places than others.
Any reasonably skilled amateur shouldn't have to hire anyone to build his boat. Used sails are far cheaper than the cost of materials, let alone time, so there are exceptions, but few.
With my book and plans, and Alex's video many have been building their own boats, with no problems. The book is pretty dog eared by the time they are done, but they found the answers they needed there.
I find my boats are easy to build right side up, and building one upside down would be a waste of time. Overhead welding is not that hard to learn, and I minimize it with my building methods. Integral tanks add a huge amount of structural strength to my boats, the tank top being a large horizontal, fully welded steel bulkhead, structurally. While that is irrelevant in my single keeler, it makes a good, very strong attachment point for my transverse keel webs, on my twin keelers. Without the tank top there, one would have to run the transverse supports to the centreline, making the centreline useless as as tankage. This would leave the only option for tankage, much higher up, raising the centre of gravity and reducing stability.

Thanks for finally asking real questions on this thread, to finally break the stream of adolescent drivel.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Glad I can contribute to the entertainment and education around here. We all muck in. I learn here too. I'm also entertained here. It's really not a pretty good place to hang out.


Few things are more satisfying than solving someones seemingly difficult problems, with a simple and effective solution..


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## bobperry

The Sliver Project FRANCIS LEE has ben taken out of the shed to have the CF mast dry fitted. The boat is now back in the shed but we did get some very nice photos of the boat while it was outside. Nice to be able to stand back a bit and admire the proportions.
Thought you guys might like a little simple and effective eye candy.

Now it's time to get the cove and bootstripes on and dress the boat up. I have very detailed drawings that show the exact locations of all the stripes and the layout of the contrasting non skid panels. Details are very important to me. If I am going to work hard to make sure the boat performs as designed I sure as hell want to control the way it looks. Of course, this has to be done working closely with the client.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> You can see the pics of my boat etc on the origamiboats site. Posted pics of my blocks on anythingsailing.com before I gave up on that site. Dont have the means of posting pics out here on the cruising grounds.


Naa. Those origamiboats pics will be ancient and, as usual, very misleading in regards to what you're claiming about how perfect your boat is...today. And I know you don't want to ever mislead people, Brent. Heh-heh.

That's cool. I didn't think you'd cough up any proof. It's always easier to just make stuff up from the "cruising grounds".

Oh look, Bob's presented yet more photos of actual boats he's designed for actual people! Ones that are actually being built - and actually sailed! I'm not sure you're qualified to carry his evidentiary jock-strap, Brent!


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Oopps! I had to edit my last post. Not sure how I did that but it was 4:30 am and before coffee.


I think it still needs work Bob. 



bobperry said:


> "It's really not a pretty good place to hang out."


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## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> Naa. Those origamiboats pics will be old and, as usual, very misleading in redards to what you're claiming about how perfect your boat is...today. And I know you don't want to ever mislead people, Brent. Heh-heh.


That site with the pics of the blocks is dead as well - I'd like to see some of the "accessories" as well as the boats, including the welded on cleats, solid fuel stoves and so forth.


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## bobperry

Got it Jon. I love this pub.
What do you mean BS uses "stoves"?
I thought you just built a campfire on deck.
Ballpark Franks anyone?

Smackers:
That is a very disturbing image.


----------



## blt2ski

Granted NOT the best picture. Here is a boat in Port Townsend I keep seeing weekly. Not too bad of a looking boat. But can not imagine it being able to go to forward with out drifting as much sideways as forward! Maybe with a CB, or a bit more draft via the full keel, or a modified fin, add some depth to the rudder........

A bit more sail area would probably help too. I would swag one needs at least 20 if not 30 knots of wind.........any way, my contraband.........oooops, contribution for the day!

Marty


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## bobperry

Marty:
Interesting boat.
Nice looking boat sitting to the right of it though.
Golf clap


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## blt2ski

That one might still be there. Shilo the name of the green one, has been there a few months. I'm recalling the white one being for sale. Will look at it again friday if I am up that way. I'm typically delivering stuff to this yard wed/friday. 

I did not see Davids boat at the main marina, nor did it look like it was still moored to the west/south of the main marina, or to the east. From pics, it should be easy to spot due to it having permanent steps on the mast to climb it. 

Need to go load/unload my boat for the weekend.

Marty


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## Oregonian

Over the years I have encountered at least 2 Brent Swain boats. Probably more but I do not always know the designer of the boat I am looking at. I do not recall the names of the boats, the names of the owners, and I did not take pictures. The boats were well made, purposefully built boats. I liked them. They had all the hallmarks of a metal boat. Welded on mooring cleats, stanchions, pulpits and everything else. Everything was painted and looked good and the boats were a very long ways from home.
These boats were built for a purpose. Just as an AC72 is. They could have been built or modified for a different purpose. Would I want one myself for the kind of sailing I do? If my choices were a Valiant 32, Tashiba 31, Brent Swain 31, Baba 30, or Islander 28, I would choose the Brent Swain 31. And I have no doubt that I could sail it - in all directions - equal to or faster than all the other boats mentioned. I have sailed on all of the other boats mentioned. I have sailed past all the other boats mentioned - and I know the math.


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## bobperry

"I have sailed on all of the other boats mentioned. I have sailed past all the other boats mentioned - and I know the math."

Of course you have and of course you do. Why would we not believe you?

Well Oregon tonight is your lucky night because you get the award:
The famous Crock Award for such a BS post.


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## mark2gmtrans

Oregonian said:


> Over the years I have encountered at least 2 Brent Swain boats. Probably more but I do not always know the designer of the boat I am looking at. I do not recall the names of the boats, the names of the owners, and I did not take pictures. The boats were well made, purposefully built boats. I liked them. They had all the hallmarks of a metal boat. Welded on mooring cleats, stanchions, pulpits and everything else. Everything was painted and looked good and the boats were a very long ways from home.
> These boats were built for a purpose. Just as an AC72 is. They could have been built or modified for a different purpose. Would I want one myself for the kind of sailing I do? If my choices were a Valiant 32, Tashiba 31, Brent Swain 31, Baba 30, or Islander 28, I would choose the Brent Swain 31. And I have no doubt that I could sail it - in all directions - equal to or faster than all the other boats mentioned. I have sailed on all of the other boats mentioned. I have sailed past all the other boats mentioned - and I know the math.


You named the Valiant 32, the Tashiba 31, the Baba 30, and the islander 28 in the same sentence with a BS 31? Now you say you can sail faster than or equal to all of them on the BS boat? Were these boats on the hard in the marina when you sailed past them? Had the masts been removed or something equally as drastic? Somehow I think maybe this is a "paid spokesperson" for BS. I know it is a BS statement. You name four of the best blue water cruising boats in the world and state that a Brent Swain 31 would out perform them? Not even if it were towed.

This appears to be the normal position of a BS boat at sea, mounting some random obstruction like a dog....

FYI this is purported to be the BS 36 MOM, however I am not 100% sure. I do believe it is a BS boat, as it seems to be following its natural instincts to hump a reef or rock for several hours.


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## smackdaddy

mark2gmtrans said:


> You named the Valiant 32, the Tashiba 31, the Baba 30, and the islander 28 in the same sentence with a BS 31? Now you say you can sail faster than or equal to all of them on the BS boat? Were these boats on the hard in the marina when you sailed past them? Had the masts been removed or something equally as drastic? Somehow I think maybe this is a "paid spokesperson" for BS. I know it is a BS statement. You name four of the best blue water cruising boats in the world and state that a Brent Swain 31 would out perform them? Not even if it were towed.
> 
> This appears to be the normal position of a BS boat at sea, mounting some random obstruction like a dog....
> 
> FYI this is purported to be the BS 36 MOM, however I am not 100% sure. I do believe it is a BS boat, as it seems to be following its natural instincts to hump a reef or rock for several hours.


Thank goodness they have those awkwardly tall lifelines to keep them on the stranded boat.

Oh, and Brent doesn't pay his spokespeople. He salvages them.


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## bobperry

Unfortunate image but not a bad looking boat. The hull shape is kind of funky going forward. It appears to be a nicely built boat.

Those are not "lifelines" Smacks. That is a fence.


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## outbound

The Sliver hull is way sweet. Please post pics of finished boat fully rigged.


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## bobperry

Out:
You be sure I will when we get her done. I'll post more pics when the paint job is complete. There is an entire thread on CA devoted to the build with many photos of various stages of the build. It is very well documented.


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## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> Thank goodness they have those awkwardly tall lifelines to keep them on the stranded boat.
> 
> Oh, and Brent doesn't pay his spokespeople. He salvages them.


Note the apparently fresh bottom paint.

"I meant to do that".


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## Jeff_H

I am sure that Oregonian does not need me speaking for him, but in other threads, if I remember correctly I believe he had explained that he has raced his Westsail 32 in a number of Pacific Distance races and had not only won on corrected time, but won boat for boat against some pretty potent competition. If he is whom I am thinking of, at some point, I was directed to an interview article about one of those races in which he describes sail changes and tactics which suggest that his boat is optimized for racing in terms of sail inventory and so on, and he understands how to make her sail to and above her rating. 

FWIW; While there is much that I may quibble with him about in my prior discussions with him, I would suggest from prior exchanges, that I have no doubts in his sailing ability and veracity. 

Jeff


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## smackdaddy

Oregonian said:


> I have sailed past all the other boats mentioned - and I know the math.


I guess this is the problem with the statement. If Ore's sailing past the other boats mentioned in a race-configured Westsail 32 - that's understandable, but that's not sailing past them in a BS 31.


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## bobperry

I know it's hard to fathom but often times the boat you are passing is not aware that they are in a race or even want to be in a race. I'm always racing but that's the way some of us sail. Not everyone.


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## outbound

This past year as been a huge learning curve for me. Find often need to depower the boat to keep the comfort level for my Admiral. We plan to be live aboards and cruise extensively so can't lose her. Thank you we're coming along nicely. Also commonly will experiment with trim just to learn what it does to vmg, comfort.leeway etc. Suspect when you pass boats you shouldn't often they are doing the same or just kicking back when the tunes have them distracted.. However, when myself or with experienced crew there is nothing as satisfying as sailing your boat well even if there is no other boat on the horizon. Think in life you compete with yourself not others.


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## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> a race-configured Westsail 32.


 There must be a term for a statement like that. Oxymoron? It definitely falls into the same general category as "Military Intelligence" and other such contradictions.

What exactly would constitute a "race configured" Westie? Carbon sails on a bendy rig? Removing the doors, drawers & cushions?


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## bobperry

You can start with a state of the art sail plan for one thing. The boat I am thinking of has a very well thought out rig and sail plan. You might think of it as a "turbo Westsail".


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## GBurton

SloopJonB said:


> There must be a term for a statement like that. Oxymoron? It definitely falls into the same general category as "Military Intelligence" and other such contradictions.
> 
> What exactly would constitute a "race configured" Westie? Carbon sails on a bendy rig? Removing the doors, drawers & cushions?


See the full keel thread for what a race configured Westsail 32 is.


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## bobperry

Or, you can check out today's pic of FRANCIS LEE.
Today the bootstripe was laid out. It's just two parallel lines. There is not enough sheer spring to the boat to have any spring in the bootstripe. But if you look carefully at the closeup shots we found a wee bit of an optical illusion. The stripes were laid out with a laser so we know they are dead straight but right in the ends they appear to kink up a tad bit, ONLY at one narrow angle range and distance to the hull. The shots taked from the loft level, looking down on the boat do not show this. The painters at the yard are not concerned. But I must admit it has ne thinking. I may need to run down to Seattle in the morning to put my mind to rest.


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## outbound

Probably a reflection of the curvature of the hull. Looks great to me. Places accent on the finest of the hull. Don't worry - be happy.


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## bobperry

Out:
I'm sure you are correct. The stern, while extremely narrow is very full in section and that may be driving this effect. I just like to be comfortable with what I see and understand why I am seeing it.


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## blt2ski

Hull curvature, along with at the ends, the lines will literally be farther apart due to the hull shape. Hence why the ends in the photos look like they are curved. My boat, while not a double ender, much less a BP boat design, has some similar feelings at the ends on the boot stripes. IT is even more apparent with a flat transom vs a double ended boat!

Marty


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## bobperry

Marty:
It's me, Bob. I know that stuff. But look at the shape in the ends of FRANCIS LEE, especially aft. It is very, very different aft than your boat. There is no flat counter that can really stretch out the bootstripe in order to maintain a vertical height. It's almost vertical anyway. I'm not concerned. I just got a bit spooked looking at that photo. The client went to the boat this afternoon and he's happy. When the client is happy I am happy.

Go Seahawks!
Nitey night. Got to get up early and meet some salmon up close and personal.


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## blt2ski

Bob,

Its a combo of the lines, and hull curvature, along with the lens angle in the camera at the point it was taken. Yeah a good camera and lens will do wonders to get close to the real thing.....but in the end, probably not in reality. Lots going on. Enjoy the night, catch some salmon n the AM, heading to ludlow for the weekend. If I can get packed in time.

Need to get back to csr and see how the project is developing.


Marty


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## Oregonian

As I said, “I have sailed all the other boats mentioned” (not the Brent Swain). That is why I chose to list them. I am a delivery skipper and brokerage “on call” skipper. I sail a lot of boats. 
When you are confronted by a person with more experience than yourself and that person’s experiences contradicts your theories, do you automatically call him a liar? Is that the Sailnet way?
The first 10 pages of this thread answered the OP’s questions. A sticking point early on concerned the “speed” of a steel boat. The answer is that hull material of a heavy displacement boat is inconsequential to the sailing performance of that boat. It matters little if the hull is carbon composite or plate steel. The proper shape for that displacement is what is important.
The 4 other boats mentioned by me fall into the general category of “average”. They are NOT “4 of the best blue water boats in the world” as stated by Mark2gmstrans. The Brent Swain design, as frequently shown, is just an adaptation of a purpose built boat. It is steel and can easily be adapted to a different purpose. I would choose a slightly different adaptation, but still with a full keel, and have a boat that, YES, will sail equal to or better than all the other boats mentioned.
If any of you are having trouble understanding this, as Mark2gmstrans is, I suggest that you force Mr. Perry to give you the straight scoop for once, as the source of your ignorance rests squarely on his shoulders.


----------



## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> Personally, I'd be somewhat satisfied seeing some current pics of Brent's own Steel Perfection. What does a boat that gets $50 and 2 hours of maintenance per year, for 30 years, look like - as it really is...now? Pics of the perfect steel under the foam - pics of the perfect paint job - pics of the perfectly good old line and sails - pics of the salvaged parts - pics of the $2 blocks that have held up perfectly for years - that kind of stuff.
> 
> Whaddaya say, Brent? It's not like this stuff is the Ice Age or anything.


Come on Smack, the guy is sailing and it is easy to find pictures of his boats and its building on Internet. You have to put Brent Swain on Google and look for images. How difficult is that?

You can see some drawings here:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/metal-boat-building/brent-swain-origami-boat-drawings-24418.html

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

" I suggest that you force Mr. Perry to give you the straight scoop for once, as the source of your ignorance rests squarely on his shoulders."

Brilliant piece of vague. non substantive BS.

Of course the choice of hull matterial of a heavy displacement boat has nothing to do with the boat's performance. Nobody here said that. But your statement is not totally true. If you would like to get technical and accurate, a lightweight hull material on a heavy displ boat would result in more ballast and a lower VCG and many full keel boats coud benefit by more stability. This would result in better all round performance. That's the "straight scoop".

I appreciate the fact that you give me so much power here, I'm flatterred. But I think most of the posters can think for themselves just fine. They are adults. I can't see how anyone here could or would want to "force" me to do anything. That's kind of an angry point of view. Silly too. I think you have some "issues" with me personally. That's your personal problem, not mine. I've never met you and you do not know me. But carry on with your rant. It's fun to keep things stirred up. Your opinions are just that, i.e. your opinions and we all have our opinions.


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
Many thanks for posting the link to BS's drawings. They are what I expected.
They show little ctaftmanship in design.
My sail plans are abit more detailed. You can judge the difference for yourself.


----------



## smackdaddy

PCP said:


> Come on Smack, the guy is sailing and it is easy to find pictures of his boats and its building on Internet. You have to put Brent Swain on Google and look for images. How difficult is that?
> 
> You can see some drawings here:
> 
> Brent Swain Origami boat drawings - Boat Design Forums
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo, I've Googled plenty of BS. My point on asking for current photos is that I'm wanting to see if the _current_ state of his boat matches his claims of how it's holding up with so little maintenance over 30 years. This should actually be something to be very proud of if he's right. Why on earth would you NOT want to illustrate something like that?


----------



## smackdaddy

Oregonian said:


> I suggest that you force Mr. Perry to give you the straight scoop for once, as the source of your ignorance rests squarely on his shoulders.


So that's why I did so poorly on my GRE??? Damn you Perry!!!!


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## bobperry

Moses, you must lead your people out of Egypt!


----------



## smackdaddy

Oregonian said:


> When you are confronted by a person with more experience than yourself and that person's experiences contradicts your theories, do you automatically call him a liar? Is that the Sailnet way?


Personally, I never call anyone a liar unless they are lying.


----------



## smackdaddy

Hey Oregoni - is this quote from BS true?



> *Steel boats are usually a lot lighter than Wetsnails*, and many more traditional fibreglass boats. Few fully loaded offshore cruising boats are anywhere near their waterlines, anyway.
> I have built about three dozen of them, and wouldn't consider going to sea in anything but a metal boat. One of the things which as made metal boats so expensive is the grossly outdated , imitation wooden boat building methods used to build most of them.
> I have reduced the time it takes to build a 36 foot hull and deck, from Colvin's estimated 1,000 hours to under 100 hours, using origami boat building methods ( and I've written a book on the subject).
> I have pulled together a 36 foot hull in two days.
> My own 31 footer was launched a month after the steel arrived.
> I once built a 36 in Winnipeg . In the three weeks I was there, I built the hull, decks, cabin, cockpit, wheelhouse, keels, rudder, skeg, engine mounts, tanks , handrails, hatches ,mooring bits , cleats, bow roller , mast fully detailed, solid lifelines, in effect all the steel work . The owner had hired a welder to weld on my time off , so by the time I had left, most of the metalwork was done.
> When the metal work is done, you are much further along than you would ever be with a fibreglass hull and decks.
> A friend, who has owned many fibreglass boats, tells me that there is far more work chasing down deck leaks on a fibreglass boat, than in maintaining a steel boat, which has most of the deck hardware welded down.
> Welded down stainless deck hardware never moves or works loose. They don't leak.
> Having single handed across the Pacific 9 times , given the things I have collided with in the middle of the night , I don't think I would still be here, had I been in a fibreglass boat.
> In Jimmy Cornell's book "Modern Ocean Cruising" he interviews ten circumnavigators , 8 of whom said they would prefer a metal boat next time, and several who had already started their metal boats .
> There is a huge mass of debris floating across the Pacific from the Japanese earthquake and tsunami. I wouldn't want to be out there in a non metal boat.
> My current steel boat , built in 1984, was painted with 30 gallons of epoxy tar. My annual maintenance is around 1 or 2 hours a year, and costs under $50 a year. She has never been sandblasted, and has only been hauled out twice, in Tonga in 2000 and 2003.
> As it is mainly outside corners which have problems with paint chipping, I have found that trimming all outside corners with stainless can reduce maintenance by up to 80%
> Some complain about the cost of fitting out. I have dealt with this in my book. I give instructions to build a 540 GPD watermaker for under $1,000. Some say headsail furlers are expensive, so I have designed one which can be easily built for under $200. The sheet blocks in my book cost around $2 each and take about 20 minutes or less to build. The composting head , costing about $1200 to buy, can be built for under $50 . Ditto the Lavac type head. The engine driven welder costs under $50 to build. The windvane self steering, under $25. Anchor winch , under $50, bilge pump, under $20, etc etc.
> 
> I new Zealand a designer named Birsell designs a simple hard chine steel boat based on the " Deerfoot "concept. Most of their owners are enthusiastic about their boats .
> Aluminium is a great material for cabins and wheelhouses, above the waterline, but corrosion problems, and problems getting a non corrosive antifouling would make me leery about aluminium hulls. They are also far more expensive, and aluminium welds are nowhere near as reliable as steel welds.
> Alex Christie has made a DVD on the origami building process. He can be reached at [email protected]
> Last edited by Brent Swain; 06-03-2011 at 02:09 PM.


I don't think he likes your current boat. Now I can see why you want to get out of it and into a BS Design. Much lighter and faster.


----------



## smackdaddy

Finally! I found those pics of the $2 blocks Brent was talking about:



> Make your own block and test it. It only takes 20 minutes and $2 worth of materials.
> 
> The cheeks of a sheet block can be easily jig sawed out of 3/16th aluminium scrap. Some use spacers which can be made out of pipe , on the becket end, to space them the same as the width of the sheave. I prefer to leave the two cheeks attached by a strip of 3/4 inch wide aluminium, then bend it 180 degrees to make the becket. These cheeks should be sanded very smooth and well rounded to eliminate chafe.
> Then it' s simply a matter of running a 3/8th ss bolt thru the sheave to make up the block.
> You can make up sheaves by running a hole saw thru a sheet of plastic , such as a cutting board. Micarta, salvaged from electrical panels makes even better sheaves which will last several lifetimes. Black plastic is far more UV resistance , if you can find it.
> After hole sawing it out, you put a carriage bolt thru it and put it in a drill chuck. Then you use a vise and machine the groove in it , using the drill like a lathe.
> You can use a spacer to make a double block, or put different sized sheaves in line, like the yachtie blocks.
> While I think bearings are a gimmick , if you insist , you can make the hole in the sheave a half inch wider than the bolt, then stack bits of 1/4 inch rod , made out of any material you like, around the pin and viola, roller bearings.
> I have made a single block this way, using only hand tools in 20 minutes, a far stronger and more reliable block than most of the super expensive "Yachtie " blocks people get conned out of large sums of money for. A billionaire can't buy a better block for any amount of money. It takes less time to build one than it takes to travel to the ship swindler and buy a block .
> Yet another of many examples of how building your own produces a far better product than the cheque book delivers.
> Last edited by Brent Swain; 10-17-2011 at 04:35 PM.





















I assume these are from his own boat - which starts to give some small indication of its condition. I guess we all have different measures of "perfection".


----------



## mark2gmtrans

Oregonian said:


> As I said, "I have sailed all the other boats mentioned" (not the Brent Swain). That is why I chose to list them. I am a delivery skipper and brokerage "on call" skipper. I sail a lot of boats.
> When you are confronted by a person with more experience than yourself and that person's experiences contradicts your theories, do you automatically call him a liar? Is that the Sailnet way?
> The first 10 pages of this thread answered the OP's questions. A sticking point early on concerned the "speed" of a steel boat. The answer is that hull material of a heavy displacement boat is inconsequential to the sailing performance of that boat. It matters little if the hull is carbon composite or plate steel. The proper shape for that displacement is what is important.
> The 4 other boats mentioned by me fall into the general category of "average". They are NOT "4 of the best blue water boats in the world" as stated by Mark2gmstrans. The Brent Swain design, as frequently shown, is just an adaptation of a purpose built boat. It is steel and can easily be adapted to a different purpose. I would choose a slightly different adaptation, but still with a full keel, and have a boat that, YES, will sail equal to or better than all the other boats mentioned.
> If any of you are having trouble understanding this, as Mark2gmstrans is, I suggest that you force Mr. Perry to give you the straight scoop for once, as the source of your ignorance rests squarely on his shoulders.


Oregonian,

First Bob is not my daddy, and I am not his, so we do not force one another to do anything at all. If I have any ignorance on anything the weight of it rest squarely on MY OWN shoulders, not Bob's, your's, or anyone else's. When I read your post I understood it to mean that you were saying you were sailing a BS 31 and outperforming all of the other boats there in your list, which by the way are far better designs in every aspect and, in my opinion, would and should perform better as blue water cruisers than the BS 31, for many reasons. The first being that those are full keel or modified fin keel boats, and the BS 31 as I have seen the designs, is a twin keel boat, seems to have the hull of an Easter egg with fairy wings, and is not going to be as good a sailor as the others. None of those boats are racers, and that is not the issue here, the issue is going to be just how sea kindly are they going to be? How well will they point, and how easily will they handle rough weather. The Westsail has been mentioned here, we know those are boats that really have a proven track record of handling storms, very well, and you and I both know they also are not racers. I would be willing to bet that the Westsail would be faster than a BS boat with twin keels of the same length, partly because the BS is going to be fatter, heavier, and have other handicaps. It has been said many times here, by sooooo many people, that wetted area makes a big difference, yet the proponents of BS are ALL seeming to want to ignore it.

You seem to be a knowledgeable skipper, a good sailor (from what I hear) and for some reason you want us to ignore the fact that the BS boats are heavier and slower by design. I won't even go into the structural issues with his so called frameless design, I know that there have been MANY far more qualified people than myself tell him that the lack of frames is not a good thing structurally. Using the top of a fuel tank as a critical structural member is also not good design and safety practice. So while you believe that I am somehow a puppet of Bob's, I am not. I have seen a lot of steel boats that looked great, had some improvements done on the designs, and were originally sort of BS designs but the finished product was most definitely not a BS design at all, once someone takes the original BS design and gets rid of the problems they can become a good design. You still are not going to build it in three weeks unless you have a large shop, an experienced team, and a lot of skill. Brent can blow smoke up people's butts all he wants, but whilst doing it he might want to think about where his lips are...

I would not work with Brent to build a boat because sooner or later I would get tired of his incessant condemnation of everything else. I think you might be able to work with him, you guys might be able to get along, because I think he would be preaching to the choir with you. I know that there are a lot of designers and builders out there, and I doubt any of them, other than Brent, will spend that much time putting down every other single method of construction, every single other designer, and everyone who does not love their designs. Brent does this and a lot more, and all over the internets, and so I like to tweak him once in awhile, and it entertains me, and I imagine one or two others, to read his replies. I can just see the poor guy, spittle flying out of his mouth as he shouts at the monitor, typing furiously, all the while his voice is getting higher in pitch as he begins yet another tale of how a "friend of mine" got into woe and almost certain death due to his boat made of inferior non-BS design methods and materials, and now has been converted to the faithful following of BS boats. He will once again tell us the tale of the boat which was humping the reef, for an ever increasing number of hours and days, I think we are up to 16 days and 10 foot swells, and being dragged 200 yards in and 200 out, and how it came through without a scratch. My first question would be "how freaking much draft did that boat have if ten foot swells would not allow it to sail free from the Fantasy Island Reef?".

So, while you may not like it, I still would like to know, just what kind of boat was it you said you were sailing past all of those others on?


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## SloopJonB

As has become obvious, he is happy with a workboat level of finish.

Those blocks COULD be spiffed up a lot - use S/S instead of Al. Nice fasteners, acorn nuts & so forth. Sanding the cheeks smooth and then polishing them up bright - they wouldn't look bad at all.

Definitely be stronger than the stamped tinfoil most of the stock stuff is comprised of.


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## mark2gmtrans

smackdaddy said:


> Finally! I found those pics of the $2 blocks Brent was talking about:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I assume these are from his own boat - which starts to give some small indication of its condition. I guess we all have different measures of "perfection".


Nah, Smackers, that cannot be Brent's boat, there is not nearly 30 coats of pain on it...

I think there are only maybe 15 or 20, but it is the deck, I think, who can tell from the angles. It sure does look like $50.00 bucks a year does not go far in the maintenance world even on a BS boat.

One thing I would have to say, the blocks look heavy duty enough to haul the boat up with.


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## Oregonian

Quote from Mark2gmtrans: "So, while you may not like it, I still would like to know, just what kind of boat was it you said you were sailing past all of those others on"

I was on a Westsail 32 and had no trouble passing the Valiant 32, Tashiba 31, baba 30, or Islander 28. I could have added the Valiant 40 to that list, but did not out of respect for Mr. Perry. The Westsail is a much better sea boat than any of those other 4 boats . The Tashiba is the closest to it's stern.

This thread is not about Westsails and they never needed to be mentioned. It is also not about all the BS that proliferates here. Bob's Sliver, that is.


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## mark2gmtrans

Oregonian said:


> Quote from Mark2gmtrans: "So, while you may not like it, I still would like to know, just what kind of boat was it you said you were sailing past all of those others on"
> 
> I was on a Westsail 32 and had no trouble passing the Valiant 32, Tashiba 31, baba 30, or Islander 28. I could have added the Valiant 40 to that list, but did not out of respect for Mr. Perry. The Westsail is a much better sea boat than any of those other 4 boats . The Tashiba is the closest to it's stern.
> 
> This thread is not about Westsails and they never needed to be mentioned. It is also not about all the BS that proliferates here. Bob's Sliver, that is.


Then why is it that it seemed to be that you were saying you were sailing a BS 31 when all of that passing went on?

That is what I got from the post, and when it was written that is what it looked like to some others as well. I personally like the westsail, it may not be a racer, but it certainly is a proven vessel in severe weather. I think you may have posted meaning that you were on a westsail, but it read as if you were saying you were on a BS 31.

I also know that you have a reputation as being very capable in handling your boat, and that makes a huge difference, no matter what the boat may be. If I am sailing against someone who is on the same type of boat I am on, but the other person is just better at handling the boat than I am, I should not be surprised when that person is better in a "race" than I am, same thing goes the other way. When I am driving a semi, and someone who has not been driving nearly as long as I have does something with less skill than I do it, I do not blame the truck, I know the fault lies with the driver. I have been sailing for a long time if you want to count the years since I first started, but if you want to count the actual hours per year on a sailboat then I am still not inexperienced, but I am certainly not in the same class as someone who delivers boats for a living. I would not race against someone in that class expecting to win, unless that person just messed up.

You probably should go back and look at the original post which I was quoting, and see how it looks to you.


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## bobperry

Oregon:
Here you go again:
Don't thank me. You deserve it.

So, you are going to tell me you can outsail a well sailed Valiant 40 in a well sailed Westsail 32. Read slowly: "well sailed".
I think your credibility just took a dip.

And for the record, you do not owe me any respect so drop the BS and talk like a man. I have no need or desire for your respect. If what I do has an effect on your life then that's your problem. What you do has no effect at all on my life. Zero.

Since you, Oregon, brought it up and I know it bothers you to know end to see someone enjoy doing what you can only dream of doing, I went down to the Sliver Project this morning to check the bootstripe. Scott, one of the owners of CSR, was the one who first spotted the kinks in the boot. Everyone else said the stripe was fine, even the owner of the SLIVER. But, I had my doubts, Scott should know. So I thought I'd check it out myself. Scott was correct. There was some weird ****e going on in both ends. We re-taped the ends of the stripe by eye, ignoring the dimensions. Now it looks very good.

We had three lines:
top of the bottom paint
bottom of the bootstripe
top of the boot stripe

Clearly while the top of the bottom paint was a straight line the other two lines were not. Not sure why. Don't care now it's fixed. I know it's odd to get focused on such a small detail but this boat is so close to perfect at this stage that I want every detail to be right. Besides while I was in Seattle I went to Central Market and bought a leg of lamb. An all round good trip.

Love the photos of BS's details.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> Many thanks for posting the link to BS's drawings. They are what I expected.
> They show little ctaftmanship in design.
> My sail plans are abit more detailed. You can judge the difference for yourself.


Bob. Ones ability to draw pretty pictures of boats has nothing to do with his experience, or total lack of hands on boat building experience ,or knowledge ,or hands on cruising experience. There are plenty of people who know absolutely nothing about boats, who can draw pretty pictures, and people who don't have an innovative, nor practical , experience based bone in their body, who can still draw pretty pictures of boats.
My clients prefer practical building and cruising experience over picture drawing ctaftmanship, as you so eloquently put it.
You say you have ctaftmanship?

Don't drink while posting.


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Naa. Those origamiboats pics will be ancient and, as usual, very misleading in regards to what you're claiming about how perfect your boat is...today. And I know you don't want to ever mislead people, Brent. Heh-heh.
> 
> That's cool. I didn't think you'd cough up any proof. It's always easier to just make stuff up from the "cruising grounds".
> 
> Oh look, Bob's presented yet more photos of actual boats he's designed for actual people! Ones that are actually being built - and actually sailed! I'm not sure you're qualified to carry his evidentiary jock-strap, Brent!


What do you find so difficult about looking up the photos section of the origamiboats site. If you have a computer problem, get a ten year old to show you how. Their brains are wired for computers, from a very early age. 
My boat looks the same as it did in the photos there. They all do.


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## bobperry

Brent:
sorry about the typo. Truth is I can't type worth a damn, especially first thing, pre-coffee in the morning. But I wanted to get a post in before I went fishing. No, I do not admire your drawings.

No question that you can build boats. They are not boats that appeal to me but as I have said over and over and over, they do appeal to some people and you should be very happy that they do. I'm glad you have a niche with home builders.

My designs are well accepted by a broad range of sailors and for that I am happy. I pride myself on a well crafted design just like you pride yourself on your craftsmanship with steel. like the details I see on the pics of your boat. Nice. You can work at diminishing what I do all you like but you can't change the reality of what I have done. and am doing everyday. All your snivelling won't undo what I have accomplished.


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## Brent Swain

With a heavy material like steel, it is important to not duplicate parts making some irrelevant dead weight. I have seen some put a large number of gussets along the hull deck joint on a boat with a trunk cabin, to keep the side decks up; needless weight, time and money . The cabinside is an immensely strong longitudinal girder on edge; structurally. Support it at any two points, and the middle is not going to sag down. Some designs, such as the Spray, and a steel version of a Tahiti ketch, have massive amounts of heavy , redundant framing and longitudinals, supporting thin hull plate. You are far more likely to hole a boat with thin plate over heavy framing than you are to hole thick hull plate over far less framing. When Sea Scene hit a huge log in Johnston Strait , the hull simply sprang back, leaving only scuffed paint as the only damage. Had she been lighter plate over rigid frames, she would have had a severe dent in her hull at that point. I have seen many boats with 1/8th hull plate which were write offs, due to internal corrosion ( due to zero paint inside) which could have been saved, had the plate been 3/16th plate. Saw two Foulkes boats with that problem in the last couple of weeks. 

Likewise, one must pay attention to what existing parts do, structurally. The decks are an immensely strong longitudinal, fully welded steel bulkhead, structurally, as is the water tank top on the centreline. The chines and centreline are the structural equivalent of longitudinal, fully welded bulkheads. I have seen people fret about the distance between frames, when the distance between immensely strong, longitudinal structural members, such as chines ,centreline , decks, etc., are very short, something some appear blind to. An inability of some designers to see stresses in three dimensions makes them a poor choice to design a steel boat. 
The longitudinal curves of a sailboats hull plates, supported by chines , decks, centerline ,longitudinals etc., constitute structural strength far greater than any given by transverse frames. Curves and longitudinals have the added advantage of not being point loads, far less likely to cause a tear in the hull plate, in the event of a frontal impact with a sharp object


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## bobperry

Thanks Brent. That was interesting and makes sense.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Brent:
> sorry about the typo. Truth is I can't type worth a damn, especially first thing, pre-coffee in the morning. But I wanted to get a post in before I went fishing. No, I do not admire your drawings.
> 
> No question that you can build boats. They are not boats that appeal to me but as I have said over and over and over, they do appeal to some people and you should be very happy that they do. I'm glad you have a niche with home builders.
> 
> My designs are well accepted by a broad range of sailors and for that I am happy. I pride myself on a well crafted design just like you pride yourself on your craftsmanship with steel. like the details I see on the pics of your boat. Nice. You can work at diminishing what I do all you like but you can't change the reality of what I have done. and am doing everyday. All your snivelling won't undo what I have accomplished.


Nor will your sniveling undo what I have accomplished.
Why are we only dyslexic when typing?
Dyslexics of the world, untie!


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## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> With a heavy material like steel, it is important to not duplicate parts making some irrelevant dead weight. I have seen some put a large number of gussets along the hull deck joint on a boat with a trunk cabin, to keep the side decks up; needless weight, time and money . The cabinside is an immensely strong longitudinal girder on edge; structurally. Support it at any two points, and the middle is not going to sag down. Some designs, such as the Spray, and a steel version of a Tahiti ketch, have massive amounts of heavy , redundant framing and longitudinals, supporting thin hull plate. You are far more likely to hole a boat with thin plate over heavy framing than you are to hole thick hull plate over far less framing. When Sea Scene hit a huge log in Johnston Strait , the hull simply sprang back, leaving only scuffed paint as the only damage. Had she been lighter plate over rigid frames, she would have had a severe dent in her hull at that point. I have seen many boats with 1/8th hull plate which were write offs, due to internal corrosion ( due to zero paint inside) which could have been saved, had the plate been 3/16th plate. Saw two Foulkes boats with that problem in the last couple of weeks.
> 
> Likewise, one must pay attention to what existing parts do, structurally. The decks are an immensely strong longitudinal, fully welded steel bulkhead, structurally, as is the water tank top on the centreline. The chines and centreline are the structural equivalent of longitudinal, fully welded bulkheads. I have seen people fret about the distance between frames, when the distance between immensely strong, longitudinal structural members, such as chines ,centreline , decks, etc., are very short, something some appear blind to. An inability of some designers to see stresses in three dimensions makes them a poor choice to design a steel boat.
> The longitudinal curves of a sailboats hull plates, supported by chines , decks, centerline ,longitudinals etc., constitute structural strength far greater than any given by transverse frames. Curves and longitudinals have the added advantage of not being point loads, far less likely to cause a tear in the hull plate, in the event of a frontal impact with a sharp object


One word covers all that - Monocoque.

The Gougeons did the same thing with thick skinned, unframed laminated wood.


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## outbound

Would seem this line of thinking would also apply to other materials not just steel. Even a glass boat when hit in a manner that the force was oblique to the plane of the hull would be stronger. It would be weakest if struck perpendicular to the hull. Increased curvature would also decrease likelihood of "oilcanning". Would think this improvement would be more likely to occur in a fully developed hull with compound curves than a chined hull or hull with simple curves. Would think having a fine bow would likely also increase strength in context of impact . Speaks well for the Sliver.
Still remember earlier post about hitting the corner of a container at hull speed. That remains my nightmare so think having a forward collusion bulkhead makes sense.


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## bobperry

Out:
I think we just did the same thing on the ever lovely FRANCIS LEE, aka The Sliver. Red cedar strip planking over a few bulkheads. We used interior joinery panels for longitudinal stiffening.

Now I need a catchy name for the method.
How about, "Building with Wood".


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## outbound

Woo Hoo Bob- you may be on to something. Maybe you could show your technique to the folks at Cape George on your side or the B+ G folks near me. (GRIN). 
They just recently towed the Mayflower back to America's Home Town. (Plimouth). Amazing how that wood stuff holds up and how they can rebuilt it when it gets old.


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## SloopJonB

You can rebuild anything when it gets old - it just depends how much you're willing to spend.

I watched a couple of guys "rebuild" a late 60's Bronco from nothing but the cowl, literally - EVERYTHING else, every scrap of sheetmetal, the frame etc. etc. was replaced.

Much the same as some of those "rebuilds" of dead wood boats.


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## bobperry

When I first started going to Taiwan I would see "body shops" where cars were reduced down to just a frame and a raw metal body sitting on the side. They would rebuild the entire car. Ran into a Vietnamese mechanic at a Volvo shop should who could make a car key by hand with just a key blank and a file.


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Would seem this line of thinking would also apply to other materials not just steel. Even a glass boat when hit in a manner that the force was oblique to the plane of the hull would be stronger. It would be weakest if struck perpendicular to the hull. Increased curvature would also decrease likelihood of "oilcanning". Would think this improvement would be more likely to occur in a fully developed hull with compound curves than a chined hull or hull with simple curves. Would think having a fine bow would likely also increase strength in context of impact . Speaks well for the Sliver.
> Still remember earlier post about hitting the corner of a container at hull speed. That remains my nightmare so think having a forward collusion bulkhead makes sense.


If your impact was at the point where the collision bulkhead met the hull, the bulkhead would increase the odds of holing. If you can survive a hull speed collision with the sharp corner of a sunken barge with zero damage then the collision bulkhead would be redundant


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## bobperry

I know what you are saying there Brent but there sure are a lot of variables. And your last statement includes a very big "IF".


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## bobperry

Here is a cute photo of the Sliver keel.


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## outbound

Who is the lady?


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## kimbottles

outbound said:


> Who is the lady?


Kerry, wife of Blackjenner, they are friends of Sliver's owner.


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## bobperry

They are my friends too. They own the FD35 ph that I raced in the Race Your House race.


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Would seem this line of thinking would also apply to other materials not just steel. Even a glass boat when hit in a manner that the force was oblique to the plane of the hull would be stronger. It would be weakest if struck perpendicular to the hull. Increased curvature would also decrease likelihood of "oilcanning". Would think this improvement would be more likely to occur in a fully developed hull with compound curves than a chined hull or hull with simple curves. Would think having a fine bow would likely also increase strength in context of impact . Speaks well for the Sliver.
> Still remember earlier post about hitting the corner of a container at hull speed. That remains my nightmare so think having a forward collusion bulkhead makes sense.


Yes, more compound curves definitely make any hull stronger, but hard chine steel hulks are so overstrength that it would not be worth the huge increase in time and expense for something so irrelevant. Most round bilged steel hulls use a lot of filler , eliminating one of the advantages of a steel hull in the first place , care free cruising. You don't want to chip the bondo.
Yes, fibreglass hulls benefit greatly by their compound curves, and flat surfaces on fibreglass hulls, without additional stiffening, should be viewed with suspicion.
Any designer working in a heavy material should, before adding unnecessary parts, look for some other part or feature which will be serving the same function.
Few designers have anything to offer, to deal with biggest hurdles most wanna be cruises face , time and money.
In fact, all too often, their response to such issues is often ridicule and obstructionist disinformation. Unless one has unlimited funds, they would be wise to steer clear of such designers, and their "advice".


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## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Few designers have anything to offer, to deal with biggest hurdles most wanna be cruises face , time and money.


I would suggest the same applies to builders. If a person wants to go cruising but has limited time & money, their best course of action by far is to buy an existing boat and prep it to suit.

No-one can build a boat remotely as cheaply as something similar can be bought used.

I speak from experience.


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Finally! I found those pics of the $2 blocks Brent was talking about:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I assume these are from his own boat - which starts to give some small indication of its condition. I guess we all have different measures of "perfection".


As you can see, they are in perfect condition, with zero wear or corrosion after 29 years , and many Pacific crossings. If you want "shiny" you can do it in minutes with a brillo pad on a grinder. That has never been a priority for me. I prefer to concentrate on structurally and functionally sound. I have no interest in impressing anyone but the practical.

Thanks for posting these Smack. They make my point.


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## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Here is a cute photo of the Sliver keel.


Holy crap! That's huge!

Or is she 18" tall?


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> As you can see, they are in perfect condition, with zero wear or corrosion after 29 years , and many Pacific crossings. If you want "shiny" you can do it in minutes with a brillo pad on a grinder. That has never been a priority for me. I prefer to concentrate on structurally and functionally sound. I have no interest in impressing anyone but the practical.
> 
> Thanks for posting these Smack. They make my point.


No worries, Swaindaddy. Actually, I think what this shows more than anything is your definition of "perfection". It's much, much narrower than the typical interpretation of what most would even remotely consider "perfect". So this was a very good exercise. Now the 99%-er can have a clear illustration of what you mean by "the perfect yacht": a floating tractor.

How about some more photos of your boat so we can see more perfection?



Brent Swain said:


> In fact, all too often, their response to such issues is often ridicule and obstructionist disinformation. Unless one has unlimited funds, they would be wise to steer clear of such designers, and their "advice".


Just to be clear, I only ridicule and obstruct disingenuous knuckleheads. And I have unlimited funds to do so.


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## kimbottles

smackdaddy said:


> Holy crap! That's huge!
> 
> Or is she 18" tall?


Kerry is 5'5", the keel is about 9' (The boat draws 10')

(I am working on my required 10 posts, only 8 to go, then I will go back to lurking.)


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## tdw

Welcome Kim B. Nice to see your name pop up.


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## smackdaddy

kimbottles said:


> Kerry is 5'5", the keel is about 9' (The boat draws 10')
> 
> (I am working on my required 10 posts, only 8 to go, then I will go back to lurking.)


I CAN'T WAIT to see thing thing sailing!


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## bobperry

Excuse me but Kerry is 3" tall.


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## blt2ski

Me thinks I am glad I am on the wrong side of the pond, relaxing on my eetsy bitsy boat, with mr winston and spouse, homefully sailing back tomorrow. 

Marty


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## bobperry

Smacks:
Thanks for posting the pics of Brent's boat. I think the photos clearly show why I will never compete for that market. It's just not the kind of boat I have any interest in at all.
Brent seems to have a really good handle on this market.

Do they make deck shoes with steel toes?


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> No worries, Swaindaddy. Actually, I think what this shows more than anything is your definition of "perfection". It's much, much narrower than the typical interpretation of what most would even remotely consider "perfect". So this was a very good exercise. Now the 99%-er can have a clear illustration of what you mean by "the perfect yacht": a floating tractor.
> 
> How about some more photos of your boat so we can see more perfection?
> 
> Just to be clear, I only ridicule and obstruct disingenuous knuckleheads. And I have unlimited funds to do so.


A friend sailed to New Zealand and back, with stock "yachty" style blocks. They had black anodized aluminium cheeks with stainless straps over them. The corrosion between the SS and the aluminium swelled the cheeks tight against the sheaves, causing them to freeze solid, in such a brief, one year trip. That is the kind of perfectionism Smack advocates. As long as it has a brand name on it, it must be perfect. My blocks have had no problems in decades . That is my definition of perfection, not decorative priorities over reliability. I still see those failed blocks for sale in yachty stores ,for high prices, for those "knuckleheads "gullible enough to judge marine hardware by the price tag and it's decorativeness. I see some lewmar blocks with 1/4 inch stainless shackles with 1/4 inch pins, and flimsy plastic cheeks , for $40 each.
How does the high price tag and brand name make plastic and tiny shackles stronger than the amount of metal holding my blocks together? How dose the tiny amount of stainless around the shackle pin get strengthened to more than the amount of aluminium in the beckets on my blocks, by adding a brand name and high price tag? They give the safe working load at 900 lbs, a fraction the strength of the half inch line going over it. I believe all blocks, cleats and mooring bitts should be stronger than the biggest line that will be used on them. That is simply good seamanship ( unlike what Smack advocates|)
You can easily make a strength comparision between my blocks and commercially made blocks . Just tie a loop of rope around a tree and the other end to the becket of one. Then tie another loop of half inch Dacron around the two blocks and tie the other becket to the back bumper of a car, with lots of slack . Then get in the car and put the pedal to the metal, and see which one breaks first. If your theory holds, then you believe that mine will break first, and you will be out 20 minutes and $2. So why don't you try it? Because you know full well that your commercially made block wont stand a hope in hell!
What is your theory on that? Or do you simply believe that mother nature is kinder, and more gentle, to materials which look like something out of a blister pack from a yachty store?
Didn't know mother nature was that consumer biased .


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## bobperry

Yeah, that's the ticket. I'll spec a few of Swain Blocks on Kim's boat. I'll surprise him. He's going to be soooooo happy when he sees them.

Brent: I'm not sure why you take so much trouble to tell us your blocks are strong. I don't think any of us doubt they are strong. They look strong. But they don't look like they would belong on one of my designs. For all their stregth they look a bit crude to my eye. But that's probably just me. I'm sure they look fine on your boat.

"those knuckleheads gullible enough "
See, there you go again, You insist on calling people insulting names if they don't do things your way. Can't you be a bit tolerant of the fact that not everyone shares the same aesthetic benchmarks as you do? You'd better get used to it or you'll just keep getting angrier and angrier and your hair will fall out and your dog will bite you.


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## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> I would suggest the same applies to builders. If a person wants to go cruising but has limited time & money, their best course of action by far is to buy an existing boat and prep it to suit.
> 
> No-one can build a boat remotely as cheaply as something similar can be bought used.
> 
> I speak from experience.


You are absolutely right, plastic boats are much cheaper, if you are content to have nothing but apiece of plastic between you and any dangerous floating debris out there, nothing but a piece of plastic between you and sudden death for you and your crew( bad seamanship) Or if you are content with the leaky dampness of living under a plastic deck , and having to rebed your deck gear and chase down leaks frequently. Most of my clients have done that, and consider it worth the time, money and effort to solve the problem permanently, with a steel boat. Before Silas Crosby, Steve had a Spencer 35, which he sailed to New Zealand and back to BC. He flew home and began Silas Crosby when he reached Hawaii in his plastic boat.
Any steel boat designer can do a lot to reduce the time and money required , for anyone who doesn't want to risk his life, and that of his crew, in fragile plastic , and wishes to enjoy the hugely enhanced comfort and safety of a steel boat, by simply using my methods. I don't exactly keep them a dark trade secret. There is very little choice around here in used boats, for anyone wanting a good, affordable steel boat. Mine are usually the only show in town


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Yeah, that's the ticket. I'll spec a few of Swain Blocks on Kim's boat. I'll surprise him. He's going to be soooooo happy when he sees them.
> 
> Brent: I'm not sure why you take so much trouble to tell us your blocks are strong. I don't think any of us doubt they are strong. They look strong. But they don't look like they would belong on one of my designs. For all their stregth they look a bit crude to my eye. But that's probably just me. I'm sure they look fine on your boat.
> 
> "those knuckleheads gullible enough "
> See, there you go again, You insist on calling people insulting names if they don't do things your way. Can't you be a bit tolerant of the fact that not everyone shares the same aesthetic benchmarks as you do? You'd better get used to it or you'll just keep getting angrier and angrier and your hair will fall out and your dog will bite you.


Saw very similar blocks to mine on the Americas cup contender "Dame Pattie"
The only difference was they were bigger and had holes in the cheeks. 
One could make exact copies in minutes for less than $10.
I bet they didn't cost that little . It takes a bigger price tag to convince people of their value. In the consumer religion, that takes priority over logic.
Numbers, over logic, sells!

Sorry for the typo. I went back and put quotation marks around" Knuckelheads" to show it was a quotation of Smack's rebuttal of my logic.


----------



## bobperry

Gloom and doom Swain. Like an angry guy on a soap box in the park.
"Repent you sinners!"

"The only difference was they were bigger and had holes in the cheeks. "
You are so funny Brent. It scares me that you actually believe your own BS.


The VOR is starting again. Probably has already started. Those are amazing "fragile plasic" boats.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> A friend sailed to New Zealand and back, with stock "yachty" style blocks. They had black anodized aluminium cheeks with stainless straps over them. The corrosion between the SS and the aluminium swelled the cheeks tight against the sheaves, causing them to freeze solid, in such a brief, one year trip. *That is the kind of perfectionism Smack advocates. As long as it has a brand name on it, it must be perfect.* My blocks have had no problems in decades . *That is my definition of perfection, not decorative priorities over reliability.* I still see those failed blocks for sale in yachty stores ,for high prices, for those knuckleheads gullible enough to judge marine hardware by the price tag and it's decorativeness. I see some lewmar blocks with 1/4 inch stainless shackles with 1/4 inch pins, and flimsy plastic cheeks , for $40 each.
> *How does the high price tag and brand name make plastic and tiny shackles stronger than the amount of metal holding my blocks together? How dose the tiny amount of stainless around the shackle pin get strengthened to more than the amount of aluminium in the beckets on my blocks, by adding a brand name and high price tag?* They give the safe working load at 900 lbs, a fraction the strength of the half inch line going over it. I believe all blocks, cleats and mooring bitts should be stronger than the biggest line that will be used on them. That is simply good seamanship ( unlike what Smack advocates|)
> You can easily make a strength comparision between my blocks and commercially made blocks . Just tie a loop of rope around a tree and the other end to the becket of one. Then tie another loop of half inch Dacron around the two blocks and tie the other becket to the back bumper of a car, with lots of slack . Then get in the car and put the pedal to the metal, and see which one breaks first. *If your theory holds, then you believe that mine will break first, and you will be out 20 minutes and $2. So why don't you try it? Because you know full well that your commercially made block wont stand a hope in hell!*
> What is your theory on that? Or do you simply believe that mother nature is kinder, and more gentle, to materials which look like something out of a blister pack from a yachty store?
> Didn't know mother nature was that consumer biased .


You sure do like putting words in people's mouth bro. I didn't say a brand name was necessary. I didn't say your block would break first. And I didn't say that aesthetics should trump functionality. But I will say this, the "$2/20-minute" mantra is complete crap for anyone in the real world (e.g. - not on the BrentBoat).

At the end of the day, your blocks are metal and plastic...just like the ones you think are "yachtie". Are they "stronger and more durable"? Probably...just in the same way these are stronger and more durable than yours:










Same tree, same car, yours definitely break before these. Every single time. So why not use these on your boat? At some point...strength and durability are not the main point.

I do agree with you that much of this hardware is way overpriced. And I really like the ingenuity that has gone into your blocks above. But yours ARE NOT "better" _all-round_ than those from the major manufacturers...which can also last decades if taken care of (I have many such pieces of gear on my boats).

Compared to these main-stream products, your blocks are definitely cheaper, similarly functional, but way more bulky, way heavier, and far uglier. Again, nothing wrong with that if the tractoresque motif is what you're after. That's not what most sailors are after however.

Homemade blocks could be done a lot better than the ones you've shown if you ask me...if one cared about "perfection"...and still be reasonably cheap and nice looking. Do you think you could make one that looks as nice this 3/4" Garhauer that's about 8" long, weighs almost 2 pounds, runs $98, has a SWL of 5K?










What would that cost to build for the typical homemaker?


----------



## Brent Swain

Bob 
I spend as much time as I please, in a place where the consumer religious rich work all year to spend three weeks in. Then they all go home, to earn the money needed, to make payments on the kind of boats and gear you advocate, while I continue to cruise, enjoying all the now empty anchorages they have abandoned, to follow your advice. Been doing this since my mid 20's. Just spent the summer swimming, sailing in some good winds, fishing , eating ice cream and chicken burgers venison steak, wild plums and blackberries etc. etc., and sailing with some beautiful charming and intelligent young ladies, who keep coming back, year after year. Have nothing else on the agenda for the foreseeable future. Never had a bank debt . Never paid a penny of bank interest directly, in my life. I travel first class on space ship earth, in the best place on the planet, in the best time in human history. So don't get too concerned for my happiness. I wouldn't change places with anyone else on the planet; I envy no one!
I do like to steer others toward the lifestyle I enjoy, and warn them about scammers trying to convince them that the pretentious "Yachty" ways, which keeps so many in debt, and tied to the dock , are their only option. I just have a low ," Just throw money at it " Bull****t threshold.
This is not grumpy, just a form of chess.
Checkmate!


----------



## bobperry

Now that Garhauer is a very nice lookig block. I'd like to see it on one of my boats.

Those wooden blocks look very strong. I saw some exactly like that on the ORACLE AC cat except they had holes in the cheeks.


----------



## bobperry

Brent I have zero concern for your happiness. Couldn't care a less. I just can't understand how someone so "happy" can be so angry and defensive on this site. You own your own words. You are in the perpetual attack mode.

I take a live and let live attitude. My world has room for all sorts of boats. I just like boats. Your attitude seems to be "sail my way or you are an idiot". I can't count the times you have said things to that effect here.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> You sure do like putting words in people's mouth bro. I didn't say a brand name was necessary. I didn't say your block would break first. And I didn't say that aesthetics should trump functionality. But I will say this, the "$2/20-minute" mantra is complete crap for anyone in the real world (e.g. - not on the BrentBoat).
> 
> At the end of the day, your blocks are metal and plastic...just like the ones you think are "yachtie". Are they "stronger and more durable"? Probably...just in the same way these are stronger and more durable than yours:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same tree, same car, yours definitely break before these. Every single time. So why not use these on your boat? At some point...strength and durability are not the main point.
> 
> I do agree with you that much of this hardware is way overpriced. And I really like the ingenuity that has gone into your blocks above. But yours ARE NOT "better" _all-round_ than those from the major manufacturers...which can also last decades if taken care of (I have many such pieces of gear on my boats).
> 
> Compared to these main-stream products, your blocks are definitely cheaper, similarly functional, but way more bulky, way heavier, and far uglier. Again, nothing wrong with that if the tractoresque motif is what you're after. That's not what most sailors are after however.
> 
> Homemade blocks could be done a lot better than the ones you've shown if you ask me...if one cared about "perfection"...and still be reasonably cheap and nice looking. Do you think you could make one that looks as nice this 3/4" Garhauer that's about 8" long, weighs almost 2 pounds, runs $98, has a SWL of 5K?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What would that cost to build for the typical homemaker?


Yes the big ones you show are stronger ,uglier , and useless on a 36. The difference between mine and the yachty kind is ounces, about the weight of a couple of loonies in your pocket, or the big mac some have for breakfast; insignificant, and irrelevant. Lose a pound, and you would save more weight on deck.
Anyone who has done more than day sailing, knows that the shiny one doesn't stay that shiny for long , just long enough to get a sucker to pay for it. As I pointed out ,anyone could make one of mine just as shiny as the one you show, for a couple of bucks. They could even make mine out of stainless, and expect it to shine just as long, and functionally, be the same, for a lot less than $98.
My blocks, shown in the pictures, are 29 years old. How would the steel ones you show, look after 29 years of mostly full time cruising, and many Pacific crossings? Even the stainless one you show wouldn't be so shiny anymore.
Time to go for an ice cream cone.


----------



## bobperry

Make it a double Brent and don't hurry back.

I've got some Umpqua Rocky Road in the reefer. Sounds good to me too.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> ...stronger ,uglier , and useless...


Exactly.



Brent Swain said:


> The difference between mine and the yachty kind is ounces, about the weight of a couple of loonies in your pocket, or the big mac some have for breakfast; insignificant, and irrelevant. Lose a pound, and you would save more weight on deck.
> Anyone who has done more than day sailing, knows that the shiny one doesn't stay that shiny for long , just long enough to get a sucker to pay for it. As I pointed out ,anyone could make one of mine just as shiny as the one you show, for a couple of bucks. *They could even make mine out of stainless, and expect it to shine just as long, and functionally, be the same, for a lot less than $98.*
> My blocks, shown in the pictures, are 29 years old. How would the steel ones you show, look after 29 years of mostly full time cruising, and many Pacific crossings? Even the stainless one you show wouldn't be so shiny anymore.


Okay, let's see you do it. Surely you've got $2 and 20 minutes to spare in your busy schedule between ice creams.

Here's the deal: I'll personally pay you $11 (plus shipping) for one of your home-made jobbies IF it's anywhere near the same look, strength, and specs as the following Garhauer model (just post the pic when you've got it ready):



> Single Blocks with Adjustable Shackle
> 25-13 US - Stainless Steel Blocks
> length:	4-1/4	width:	2
> weight:	5 oz	shackle:	3/16
> sheave diameter: 1-3/4
> 
> Comes with set screw to make it fixed shackle. Safe working load is 1150 lbs.
> 
> $21.42


That's a HUGE profit over your $2 cost, gives you roughly a $33/hr wage (a big help to your ice cream kitty), and I'm STILL saving good money. Win/Win. Then I'll order the Gerhauer as well, tie them both to a tree and see what happens when I crank on them with my Jeep.

Whaddayasay Brent? Let's do this!


----------



## bobperry

Smackenheimer:
I can't see this happening. It'll be like me waiting for the BS documentation showing my boats have "vanished at sea without a trace" or the BS weight study. It ain't gonna hoppen. BS makes stuff up. Next move is that BS will conveniently change ths subject.

How about those Seahawks, unbeaten in pre-season. Yahoooooo!

I hope he takes you up on this. It will be fun to watch. But do you, in your wildest dreams, think BS can build a block with the same look as the Garhauer?


----------



## aeventyr60

If he can make some pretty blocks I'm in. Have had several of those shiny ones blow up on me over the years. Seems the old plastic girl is stronger then the blocks. I had to go back to the original teak blocks one time when I didn't have a new shiny spare. 

Maybe we could have an Ice Cream Social at Bob's place and compare blocks? I'll bring the Hokey Pokey.

PS: I need a new triple block that fits 1/2 to 5/8 line for the main sheet. The TINY pin connecting the block to the shackle has lost it's head...Thanks Schaeffer....


----------



## bobperry

THE GREAT BLOCK BLOWOUT

"If he can make some pretty blocks"
This will be the kicker. I haven't seen anything BS made that I would call pretty.


----------



## aeventyr60

I thought a small challenge would be in order. Somthing we could enjoy while having an ice cream. Reminds me of an old ice cream ad " Are you a Licker or a Biter?


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Smackenheimer:
> I can't see this happening. It'll be like me waiting for the BS documentation showing my boats have "vanished at sea without a trace" or the BS weight study. It ain't gonna hoppen. BS makes stuff up. Next move is that BS will conveniently change ths subject.
> 
> How about those Seahawks, unbeaten in pre-season. Yahoooooo!
> 
> I hope he takes you up on this. It will be fun to watch. But do you, in your wildest dreams, think BS can build a block with the same look as the Garhauer?


Of course he can. For cheap! He said so. And I believe he's a man of integrity. He'll do it. You'll see.


----------



## bobperry

I think he's out by the pig pen doing it now.


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## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> The VOR is starting again. Probably has already started. Those are amazing "fragile plasic" boats.


Probably not the best examples Bob. The last time I followed the VOR there were numerous failures of rigs, keels, hulls and gear. Boats had to limp into out of the way ports for repairs, sometimes even missing whole legs of the race IIRC.

IMHO those boats should be restricted to inshore racing - they are quite simply WAY too close to the edge for deep water. They ARE "fragile plastic boats" in spades.

Remember the first Whitbread when Sayula, a stock Swan 65, got rolled 360 in the Southern Ocean and came up with her rig intact? She also went on to win the race. That's how they should be built for that environment.

Of course I doubt anyone could water ski behind her.


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## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> What would that cost to build for the typical homemaker?


I've never met a "homemaker" who could build stainless boat blocks.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
Those boats are pushed to limits that the typical cruiser doesn't know exist. We need guys out there, young guys, to push the boats so we can learn and find out out to design better boats. They don't call it the "cutting edge" for nothing.

As my old boss Dick Carter used to say about race boats, "If it doesn't break it was over built."

It's not fair to hold Brent to the Garhauer aesthetic. He should just come close. But he has left the building. When things get real BS is hard to find.


----------



## Brent Swain

Many morbidly obese skippers, buy expensive blocks, to reduce the weight on deck by a few ounces. ( Yacht club logic?) They could far more easily find the source of weight on deck, by taking a look in the mirror.
Bob, your quote of Carter explains exactly why cruisers should not get their gear and advice from the racing folks, and those who cater to them, and their priorities.
Anyone who can build a boat, can build a block ( Furler , anchor winch, anchors , etc etc) 
Where do I send the Brent block ( as soon as the money arrives) How do I know $11 will cover the shipping?
I have a life beyond the internet( unlike some) I am cruising ( you know, the stuff this site talks about, but few actually do most of the time, while telling those who do, that we have it all wrong)
As I point out in my book, you can judge the value of advice from what it has done fort he person offering it. If you wan to spend your entire day, telling people, who actively cruise most of the time, that they have it all wrong, while rarely cruising yourself , them Bob and Smack are your best source . If you want to be able to cruise 11 months a year from your mid 20's, then it would not be wise to get your advice from anyone who has never accomplished that. Cruising dreams suffer the death of a thousand cuts. While buying small things like blocks new, wont kill the dream, carrying that thinking thruout the project will add up to costs that definitely will, and too often has. Best nip such thinking in the bud, and treat any suggestion that the "Yotty" way is your only option, with the scepticism and distain it deserves, given how many cruising dreams it has killed.

Found an internet café, far better than the pub, where the smoke from the leper colony (Smoking section ) doesn't blow in.


----------



## bobperry

"Many morbidly obese skippers, buy expensive blocks, to reduce the weight on deck by a few ounces. ( Yacht club logic?)"

There you go again with that BS judgementalist ethic. I think you are projecting again Brent.

The Carter quote is made half jokingly as anyone with a sense of humor could guess.

I spent a very nice and very busy morning with my new client Dave working on his new 42'er. It will be composite. I showed him the pics of the BS blocks. That is certainly NOT what he wants regardless of how long they last. He chuckled at the thought.

I'm not ready to post drawings yet. Mind you, the preliminary drawings are very nice but the boat is not ready to meet the public yet. I still have some fine tuning to do. the client is a builder of homes but not a "homebuilder". This is the third design I have done for him. We will have the boat built at a major yacht building yard. It will be a very beautiful boat.


----------



## Faster

bobperry said:


> ....
> I'm not ready to post drawings yet. Mind you, the preliminary drawings are very nice but the boat is not ready to meet the public yet. I still have some fine tuning to do. the client is a builder of homes but not a "homebuilder". This is the third design I have done for him. We will have the boat built at a major yacht building yard. It will be a very beautiful boat.


Looking forward to the day it is ready to meet the public..

btw, sadly saw 'Wild Horses' sitting on her rudder, bow down at Jedidiah Island in early August. Hopefully no serious damage was done. There was not much wind or wave action.

one more btw, (slightly off topic, I know) do you know, Bob, how many Reliance 37s were built?


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> "Many morbidly obese skippers, buy expensive blocks, to reduce the weight on deck by a few ounces. ( Yacht club logic?)"
> 
> There you go again with that BS judgementalist ethic. I think you are projecting again Brent.
> 
> The Carter quote is made half jokingly as anyone with a sense of humor could guess.
> 
> I spent a very nice and very busy morning with my new client Dave working on his new 42'er. It will be composite. I showed him the pics of the BS blocks. That is certainly NOT what he wants regardless of how long they last. He chuckled at the thought.
> 
> I'm not ready to post drawings yet. Mind you, the preliminary drawings are very nice but the boat is not ready to meet the public yet. I still have some fine tuning to do. the client is a builder of homes but not a "homebuilder". This is the third design I have done for him. We will have the boat built at a major yacht building yard. It will be a very beautiful boat.


What will be the price tag? What I object to is the suggestion that one has to be rich, or should wait until they are rich before cruising. I enjoy giving the not so rich the option of enjoying just as good a boats, from a practical point, as the rich, and enjoying cruising as much or more, without going to all the trouble of getting rich ( and thus increasing their environmental foot print exponentially) .


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> You can rebuild anything when it gets old - it just depends how much you're willing to spend.
> 
> I watched a couple of guys "rebuild" a late 60's Bronco from nothing but the cowl, literally - EVERYTHING else, every scrap of sheetmetal, the frame etc. etc. was replaced.
> 
> Much the same as some of those "rebuilds" of dead wood boats.


A cruiser friend compared older wooden boats to that old quote;
"This is exactly the same axe my great great grandfather used. Since then it has had 3 new heads and six new handles."
There eventually remains not much original in" rebuilt" older boats. It soon becomes easier , quicker and cheaper to build from scratch


----------



## bobperry

Brent, this guy isn't waiting. He's doing it. Cost of the boat will be above $500,00 and under $600,000. I know that just pisses you off but too bad. That's your personal problem. Some people have the money and enjoy spending it things that make them happy. I'm glad they come to me. I can give them the boat they dream of. That's why this client came back.

Faster: WH has a big strong all alu spade rudder. I hope they get off without damage.
I guess they pulled a Swain. Probably saw one of BS's boats on the rocks and said to themselves, "Hey, that looks like fun. Let's try it."

I have no idea how many Reliance 37's were built. That was a long time ago and they were a dicey bunch. I suspect maybe 6 hulls were built. The project was owned by two partners that didn't stay partners very long. I have only known one owner, a German fellow who used to come to the Rendezvous. His boat was yellow. He was heading off cruising the last time I spoke to him. As I recall he was a ski designer with one of the major companies. He brought me a beautful pair of new skis one year. I still have them.


----------



## outbound

Last few days it's been raining with T storms, or fog and no wind. Not much fun to sail in that stuff. So the bride and I have been cleaning the boat and organizing (? re organizing) stuff. Had the AC on for awhile to kill the humidity and the webasto at night when it got cold . Watched the movie about Bob Dylan on the flat screen and listened to tunes from the Ipad while reading. Cooked some wonderful food and had a grand time although stuck in one place. Even had our slip neighbors over for drinks and some chuckles. Were pigs with fresh water. You would have loved it Brent. We broke every rule you have so you would have felt free. (Still have a couple of good cigars -they go well with single malt)Totally agree the stars are no brighter if you have money in your pocket or none. Still, being a fat old man why can't I have some fun? Why do you project such hate toward folks who have worked hard all their lives and are now trying to enjoy the fruit of their labor. ?Are you jealous or just a misanthrope.


----------



## bobperry

Out:
I celebrate your success and your happiness. You should feel pretty damn good.

Don't let BS and his hair shirt crowd,,,,Hey! I just had a brilliant flash......build a BS boat and call it HAIR SHIRT.

I slay myself sometimes.


----------



## outbound

Thanks Bob-I've never understood why some folks don't feel the joy of watching other folks having fun. I smile to see a kid playing in the sand, or the new owner who was by the travel lift last week watching his custom yacht getting wet for the first time ( something I could never afford). It doesn't matter. There's so much sadness in the world. Enjoying someone else's joy is a blessing. In the 1700's a common greeting was "I give you joy of the day" even Maturin said it. It makes me smile.


----------



## bobperry

I've had all kinds of clients. It would be really silly and shallow of me to try to lump them into generalized behavioral categories.

No, it would be ignorrant of me.


----------



## Capt Len

As the proud owner of an archaic wooden gaffer with home made teak blocks (and all her other parts too) I've followed the thread with reluctant fascination.Regardless of hull materiel, I often see more modern designs dragging their rudders while the center of effort and center of lateral resistance go off in different directions ,sort of like a one handled wheel barrow.(hard to steer)As for the general trend of this thread, reminds me of a rendezvous at a bar in Venezuela.back in '68. Big mamma had made her availability known . The boys at the table couldn't decide who was first. They just laid their goods on the table and Momma took her pick.Seems like that method could go a long ways to settle the pros and cons here..


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Where do I send the Brent block ( as soon as the money arrives) How do I know $11 will cover the shipping?
> I have a life beyond the internet( unlike some) I am cruising ( you know, the stuff this site talks about, but few actually do most of the time, while telling those who do, that we have it all wrong)


Sweet! So we're on!

First, though - you really do need work on your math. I said $11 _plus shipping_. That means that the shipping is _in addition_ to the the $11 that is for the block. See? No.

Ahm, how about this...

Block: $11
Shipping: X
Total: $11 + X
X is the variable that you will provide when you have it. Then we can complete the equation.

Now do you see? No.

Man, this is hard. Screw it...

Just give me your mailing address and I'll immediately send you USD $11 (cash money) to pre-pay your BrentBlock that will be equivalent to/better than the Garhauer, then whatever else you need for shipping said BrentBlock (you can just post the cost of the shipping here when you get it - just make sure it's the cheap option) I'll send that to you as well. Then you can send me the block (I will obviously assume all the risk in the transaction).

We'll document the whole thing here so it's on the up-and-up. So make sure to ask one of your many friends to video you while you make this block to confirm the "$2/20-minute" promise. That will be awesome. AND you can use it for marketing your blocks!

Let's do it, bro!


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> What will be the price tag? What I object to is the suggestion that one has to be rich, or should wait until they are rich before cruising. I enjoy giving the not so rich the option of enjoying just as good a boats, from a practical point, as the rich, and enjoying cruising as much or more, without going to all the trouble of getting rich ( and thus increasing their environmental foot print exponentially) .


If they're going to build your boat in order to achieve that dream, they need to be fairly rich...and they'll have to wait several years while they build it. This favorite argument of yours is never going to fly...ever. Try a different angle.


----------



## smackdaddy

Holy Cow! I just found a BrentBoat - perfect and rust-free, of course - actually under sail in the conditions Brent most prefers for his boats:






Ah, cruising.

Here are the lyrics to the soundtrack:



> Come and listen to a story 'bout a man named Brent
> A poor yacht designer who a penny never spent
> Then one day hooked his rusty to a truck
> And sailed across the prairie yelling "Perry's Yachts Suck!"
> 
> Steel that is. China prime. Environmental Bigfoot.
> 
> Now the first thing you know ol' Brents a hundredaire.
> Floatin' in perfection with rocky road and pickled bear
> DVDs said "Cruise the world for next to free"
> So they loaded up a welder and moved to Poverty,
> 
> Hills that is. Rusting hulks, tow trucks&#8230;


----------



## bobperry

Agricolae in agro est.


----------



## davidpm

I've been trying to keep up with this thread and have read as much of it as I could bring myself to.
I bought and read the BS book and had a good time reading it. While it is unlikely I will ever build or own a BS boat, unless I got divorced, I found it a great read. 

I will probably scan in the whole book and add it to my Kindle for when we go cruising.
Will I ever build a BS Block or a BS windless etc. Probably not. It is kind of fun to imagine doing so however. It reminds me of a simpler time when with a few tools a guy could make anything.

It makes me feel more confident that if someday I get stuck on some outback island and break something I have a guide to encourage me to find a local fellow with a welder and have him fabricate what I need to perhaps make a weather window.

I can see anyone of a half dozen of Bret's gear designs coming in handy in a pinch.

It doesn't matter to me if it takes someone 20 minutes or a couple of hours to build a block. What matters is that it is possible and that it will do the job.

I'm more than willing to give Bret a little leeway on hyperbola in reference to how long it takes to make things and how long they last.

I just enjoy seeing the creativity of using simple cheap material to make something that works.

The value in his designs in my opinion is in re-opening our eyes to the possibilities of making functional stuff ourselves.

That is valuable information.

His passion for what he does is just an added bonus.


----------



## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> Holy Cow! I just found a BrentBoat - perfect and rust-free, of course - actually under sail in the conditions Brent most prefers for his boats:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, cruising.
> 
> Here are the lyrics to the soundtrack:


:laugher I wonder how old the YOUNGEST person is here who knows the music to those lyrics? 

Watching that video I can't help thinking - if it slides across a grassy field that easily, it *must* slip through the water pretty easily.


----------



## outbound

Too funny- Smack you missed your calling. 

Still think I'll carry a few extra snatch blocks and a couple of no stretch lines twice as long as the longest line on my boat. Also have one extra of the main blocks for major working lines ( only spec'd two sizes to make that easier to do). Also have a couple of those new fangled low friction eyes to lash anywhere. I spec'd all the working lines on my boat to be extra long and will reverse the way they are lead yearly. They're long enough so if I see wear I can eliminate that section and replace when available. Carry fids.Time is precious. It's something you can't buy or replace. Have no interest in spending time on something I can avoid spending time on. Rather be sailing.


----------



## bobperry

Very clever Smack. Well done.


----------



## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> Holy Cow! I just found a BrentBoat - perfect and rust-free, of course - actually under sail in the conditions Brent most prefers for his boats:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, cruising.
> 
> Here are the lyrics to the soundtrack:


Well, I have to say that it is a very strong boat. How many boats you could tow like that? LOL

After looking at the video I would say that grounding at slow speeds should not be a problem even with rocks.

I have found some more videos:











I don't like Brent attitude regarding all other type sailboats but obviously he does sailboats that satisfy a small segment of the market. There are some very experienced members on this forum that dream having a Brent's boat. They are strong, cheap (for a steel boat) and with a big voyage potential. If speed and sailing fun is not very important, they seem pretty safe to me and able to go anywhere with a minimum of maintenance. In my opinion they could be nicer without losing any of their attributes, including low price, but it seems that to some beauty is not very important.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Here's some of the "cons".

Went down to Seattle this morning to finalize the bootstripe on FRANCIS LEE. With the boat being so narrow you can see almost the entire bootstripe from any angle so it extremely important that the lines defining the boot stripe be absolutely fair. If it were a fat boat you couldn't see one end from the other so it would really mean there was a far greater tolerance of overall fainess for any stripe. But we have a lovely, skinny boat so these details are critical, at least to my eye and the owner's eye.

Mission accomplished. No droops or kinks or "weirdnesses" in the stripe anymore. It took about 30 minutes working with the very patient painter who also has a great eye. He has done a marvelous job painting this boat.
Check out the reflections in the topsides.


----------



## bobperry

Faster:
You were mistaken. I spoke to the owner of WILD HORSES last night and she said they have been in the slip for two weeks. You must have seen another spectacularily good looking boat on the rocks.

Please look more carefully the next time. You scared me. I don't like that.


----------



## chall03

Smack, that is going into the Smack-Classic folder along with suck gems as the LFS and what was that lass at stuffers?? Choirlady???

Speaking of which i'm going to go bump the LFS thread just for kicks.


----------



## chall03

I know this has been touched on before in this thread, but the great irony here is still that the cost conscious, go small go now, cruiser that Brent appears to be the self appointed poster child for is far likelier to be sailing the oceans in a Perry designed Valiant 40, Tayana 37 or Passport 40 than in a Brentboat. 

Yacht design is Bob Perry's profession, he has no obligation or duty to help me, you or anyone else go cruising, he is not compelled at this stage of his career to donate his services to the needy cruisers of the world. He is a designer of yachts who wishes to excel in his craft. No one would criticise an experienced doctor at the pointy end of his profession from working in a leading facility because he wished to be at the forefront of medicine, likewise any criticism of Bob's work is just 'tall poppy syndrome' base level envy and nothing more. 

I find nothing wrong with Brent's boats, I have no issue with his approach to life and cruising, I however find everything wrong with the crap he has spun in this thread.


----------



## smackdaddy

chall03 said:


> Smack, that is going into the Smack-Classic folder along with suck gems as the LFS and what was that lass at stuffers?? Choirlady???
> 
> Speaking of which i'm going to go bump the LFS thread just for kicks.


Suck gems? C'mon, dude, they were better than that.

Churchlady.


----------



## bobperry

Gosh Chall, I think I'm gonna cry.

Where can I find the "LFS" thread? I don't think I know it.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Faster:
> You were mistaken. I spoke to the owner of WILD HORSES last night and she said they have been in the slip for two weeks. You must have seen another spectacularily good looking boat on the rocks.
> 
> Please look more carefully the next time. You scared me. I don't like that.


Are you sure Brent didn't take WH out for a spin? Sounds like his float plan.


----------



## bobperry

No Smacks. I spoke to the owner of WH last night and they have no idea what Faster is talking about. They were at the Rendezvous after their trip to Canada and the boat was fine. He must have seen another stunningly beautiful yacht. He did not see WH on the rocks.

Here is a pic of WH leaving the Rendezvous. Hardly a damaged boat limping home.


----------



## Faster

bobperry said:


> Faster:
> You were mistaken. I spoke to the owner of WILD HORSES last night and she said they have been in the slip for two weeks. You must have seen another spectacularily good looking boat on the rocks.
> 
> Please look more carefully the next time. You scared me. I don't like that.


OOPs... my bad then, apologies to both. We saw the boat at a bit of a distance, a person in the anchorage later told us it was Wild Horses. It was a very similar vessel, similar length, hard dodger, etc. and by the time we walked across the island they'd refloated and moved on.

Anyway happy to hear I was wrong about WH... so the question now is who was it?? Shore tied in Deep Bay, Jedidiah, (too close, obviously) and this would have been on or about August 6th or 7th, not in the last two weeks. And I wouldn't have expected any significant damage, it would have been a gentle landing on the skeg/rudder on a ledge as the tide ran out, the bow was down about a foot with a rising tide at the time we saw whoever it was.


----------



## bobperry

Can't help you there Faster. Can't imagine there are too many boats 63' long that look like WH. WH was in the area at the time so that's probably where the confusion came from.


----------



## bobperry

Bootstripe finalized and now the scaffodling is in place to begin the deck painting. We have a contrasting non skid colors with artfully placed "waterways". I hope thay are artfully placed. More details to obsess over. I like that,


----------



## kimbottles

bobperry said:


> No Smacks. I spoke to the owner of WH last night and they have no idea what Faster is talking about. They were at the Rendezvous after their trip to Canada and the boat was fine. He must have seen another stunningly beautiful yacht. He did not see WH on the rocks.
> 
> Here is a pic of WH leaving the Rendezvous. Hardly a damaged boat limping home.


She then spent time anchored in front of my house and I was aboard, they are very experienced cruisers and they were not aground in Canada. (There, 3 down and 7 to go...)


----------



## smackdaddy

Bob - I really can't wait to see that sliver sailing. I bet it's gonna freakin' MOVE!


----------



## kimbottles

smackdaddy said:


> Bob - I really can't wait to see that sliver sailing. I bet it's gonna freakin' MOVE!


Smack,

Bob & I are hoping you and the boys will come out and visit and go for a sail on her sometime.

Kim

(4 down and 6 to go until I can have full access. I don't want to just make 6 silly posts, I am looking for actual opportunities to make the posts.)


----------



## smackdaddy

kimbottles said:


> Smack,
> 
> Bob & I are hoping you and the boys will come out and visit and go for a sail on her sometime.
> 
> Kim
> 
> (4 down and 6 to go until I can have full access. I don't want to just make 6 silly posts, I am looking for actual opportunities to make the posts.)


Kim,

We would absolutely love that. Thank you.

Steve


----------



## kimbottles

smackdaddy said:


> Kim,
> 
> We would absolutely love that. Thank you.
> 
> Steve


Your welcome.

(5/5)


----------



## smackdaddy

kimbottles said:


> Your welcome.
> 
> (5/5)


Really? (just helping you out on the post count...heh-heh)


----------



## kimbottles

smackdaddy said:


> Really?


Yes!
(6/4)


----------



## smackdaddy

Alright! Jeez!

What do you think of steel?


----------



## kimbottles

smackdaddy said:


> Really? (just helping you out on the post count...heh-heh)


So I figured.
(7/3)


----------



## smackdaddy

kimbottles said:


> So I figured.
> (7/3)


I thought you'd see what I did there. You're smart.

I just have to be careful since I have a long line of irony-challenged forum dudes in my wake whose feelings are very hurt. The "Trolls Anonymous" program I'm in wants me to be more sensitive. So, just workin' the steps. You know how it is.

Even so, I CANNOT bring myself to use the smileys. I hate those damn things!

How many now?


----------



## kimbottles

smackdaddy said:


> Alright! Jeez!
> 
> What do you think of steel?


Well I have owned boats of all materials (except ferro-cement ). There is a place in this world for all boat building materials (even ferro). Each person needs to decide what is important to them and which material meets their needs/wants the best. (I have sailed on vessels of every material including ferro. They all work.)

I have also spent quite a bit of time on both sail and power boats (as skipper and crew and passenger). I never did understand why there has to be any competition between them. I own both power and sail boats and plan to continue to do so.

The one thing I really don't understand about Mr. Swain is why he needs to belittle and slam boats different than his. He apparently builds a vessel that meets a need. Good for him. They will appeal to some people and not to others. (Just like sail boats and power boats will.)

We all make our own choices about boats and as long as WE are happy with our choices then why would anyone else care?

Cheers!

Kim Bottles
Blakely Harbor, WA
(8/2)


----------



## kimbottles

smackdaddy said:


> I thought you'd see what I did there. You're smart.
> 
> I just have to be careful since I have a long line of irony-challenged forum dudes in my wake whose feelings are very hurt. The "Trolls Anonymous" program I'm in wants me to be more sensitive. So, just workin' the steps. You know how it is.
> 
> Even so, I CANNOT bring myself to use the smileys. I hate those damn things!
> 
> How many now?


Well I posted 2/8 on my last post but then had to correct it via "edit" to 8/2, so this looks like 9/1, one more and I can return to the lurking program I much prefer. As you well know I have plenty of opportunity to post on the Sliver Thread over on CA.

I am not fond of smileys either.

(9/1)


----------



## smackdaddy

kimbottles said:


> The one thing I really don't understand about Mr. Swain is why he needs to belittle and slam boats different than his. He apparently builds a vessel that meets a need. Good for him. They will appeal to some people and not to others. (Just like sail boats and power boats will.)
> (8/2)


That superior attitude is EXACTLY why I keep at the guy...that and his casting his means-and-ends in a light that makes very little financial or time-requirement sense to anyone but him - especially the customer base he's preaching to. I honestly don't get it.

It's like "Swaintology" or something. Everyone else can see it's really whacky...except Brent...and maybe Tom Cruise.


----------



## kimbottles

Well he and all of the rest of the posters do make this thread entertaining to read.

There it is 10/0

Full access!!


----------



## smackdaddy

Agreed!

Welcome to SN KB. See you at CA.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Many morbidly obese skippers, buy expensive blocks, to reduce the weight on deck by a few ounces. ( Yacht club logic?) They could far more easily find the source of weight on deck, by taking a look in the mirror.
> Bob, your quote of Carter explains exactly why cruisers should not get their gear and advice from the racing folks, and those who cater to them, and their priorities.
> Anyone who can build a boat, can build a block ( Furler , anchor winch, anchors , etc etc)
> Where do I send the Brent block ( as soon as the money arrives) How do I know $11 will cover the shipping?
> I have a life beyond the internet( unlike some) I am cruising ( you know, the stuff this site talks about, but few actually do most of the time, while telling those who do, that we have it all wrong)
> As I point out in my book, you can judge the value of advice from what it has done fort he person offering it. If you wan to spend your entire day, telling people, who actively cruise most of the time, that they have it all wrong, while rarely cruising yourself , them Bob and Smack are your best source . If you want to be able to cruise 11 months a year from your mid 20's, then it would not be wise to get your advice from anyone who has never accomplished that. Cruising dreams suffer the death of a thousand cuts. While buying small things like blocks new, wont kill the dream, carrying that thinking thruout the project will add up to costs that definitely will, and too often has. Best nip such thinking in the bud, and treat any suggestion that the "Yotty" way is your only option, with the scepticism and distain it deserves, given how many cruising dreams it has killed.
> 
> Found an internet café, far better than the pub, where the smoke from the leper colony (Smoking section ) doesn't blow in.


Hey Brent...where do I send the $11 and my return address? I'm really excited to get this going. If you can calculate the shipping now go ahead and let me know on that as well and I'll send all of it. I assume it wouldn't weigh much more than one of your books? So maybe $5?


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Holy Cow! I just found a BrentBoat - perfect and rust-free, of course - actually under sail in the conditions Brent most prefers for his boats:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, cruising.
> 
> Here are the lyrics to the soundtrack:


Try that with a plastic boat and see how it makes out. You have made my point absolutely, when it comes to strength. Alex had no other options, when boat movers refused to move it out from under a high tension power line. While he got plenty of criticism for moving her this way, not a single critic had any alternative to offer. So Smack, tell us how you would move her, when not a single boat mover or crane operator would touch her where she sat?
And what would be the price of your suggested option?
Rent for the building site was $20 a month!


----------



## PCP

kimbottles said:


> ...
> I have also spent quite a bit of time on both sail and power boats (as skipper and crew and passenger).* I never did understand why there has to be any competition between them.* I own both power and sail boats and plan to continue to do so.
> 
> ..
> Kim Bottles
> Blakely Harbor, WA
> (8/2)


Yes, that is strange because I swear that most of the sailboats I saw in Greece are used like motorboats. In weak wind probably because the boat will not make 7K, in strong wind (15K)...because the wind is too strong.

Believe me I am being ironic but at least here, that's what happens. That is more usual with charters (most of the boats around) and even more with charter cats.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Brent Swain

chall03 said:


> I know this has been touched on before in this thread, but the great irony here is still that the cost conscious, go small go now, cruiser that Brent appears to be the self appointed poster child for is far likelier to be sailing the oceans in a Perry designed Valiant 40, Tayana 37 or Passport 40 than in a Brentboat.
> 
> Yacht design is Bob Perry's profession, he has no obligation or duty to help me, you or anyone else go cruising, he is not compelled at this stage of his career to donate his services to the needy cruisers of the world. He is a designer of yachts who wishes to excel in his craft. No one would criticise an experienced doctor at the pointy end of his profession from working in a leading facility because he wished to be at the forefront of medicine, likewise any criticism of Bob's work is just 'tall poppy syndrome' base level envy and nothing more.
> 
> I find nothing wrong with Brent's boats, I have no issue with his approach to life and cruising, I however find everything wrong with the crap he has spun in this thread.


For stock plastic boats, there is no doubt that Bob is one of the best plastic boat designers on the planet. If you are looking for a plastic boat, then a Perry design would be one if the better choices. You would only have to put proper lifelines on, a proper wheelhouse and inside steering, and proper aluminium hatches, and you would have one of the best plastic boats anywhere ( and a far better looking boat than most new designs )
But you would still have a plastic boat, with a fraction the odds of surviving a collision with a container, a fire aboard , thieves, etc . For a new boat, you would have to give up decades of cruising to pay for her. and end up with a boat so marginally faster, you would never sail far enough to make up for the time you spent paying for her. 
This discussion is about pros and cons of steel. Plastic has it's pros and cons, as does steel. For the use most plastic boats are mainly built for ,marina queens, which are rarely used for anything but weekend cruising, and three weeks in summer, plastic boats are ideal .For full time cruising , boats get the same rough treatment as commercial boats, and should be built as tough and maintenance free. Boats which look very Yachty leaving this side of the Pacific , look rough as hell after crossing it. Boats which were plain Jane and easy to maintain, with commercial boat priorities leaving here, look unchanged , and quite immaculate ,by the time they have crossed the Pacific. Its just that much easier to keep them that way . Cleats don't pull out , no varnish to fall off, furlers don't break, anchor winches don't freeze up, blocks don't break or pull out, decks don't leak, etc. etc.


----------



## Rhys05

Brent- Been lurking on this thread for a while, its been...entertaining. Anyway, serious question: have any of your boats been rated for PHRF? I'm just curious as to how their ratings compare to similar boats in other materials. Not a perfect system, but I find the numbers useful when looking at different boats. I know that your boats are not built to be racers, but neither are Westsail 32's, Cape Dory Typhoons, or Flickas. Just curious! Thanks!


----------



## PCP

Brent Swain said:


> ...
> But you would still have a plastic boat, with a fraction the odds of surviving a collision with a container, a fire aboard , thieves, etc . For a new boat, you would have to give up decades of cruising to pay for her. and end up with a boat so marginally faster, you would never sail far enough to make up for the time you spent paying for her.
> 
> *This discussion is about pros and cons of steel. Plastic has it's pros and cons, as does steel.*
> 
> For the use most plastic boats are mainly built for ,marina queens, which are rarely used for anything but weekend cruising, and three weeks in summer, plastic boats are ideal .For full time cruising , boats get the same rough treatment as commercial boats, and should be built as tough and maintenance free. Boats which look very Yachty leaving this side of the Pacific , look rough as hell after crossing it....


True, this thread is about Pros and cons of steel boats but even if the original poster refereed a voyage boat the scope of this thread is much more broad and refers to all types of sailboats.

As you have refereed with disdain (and I don't know why) most cruisers use the boats at week ends and on one month of vacations. I agree when you say that probably the best option is fiberglass or epoxy (even if there are more options). That's why most of the sailboats are fiberglass.

Some others beside cruising on their month of vacations use the boat for club or even top racing. Again fiberglass, epoxy and carbon come as the main choices.

The ones that have the time (retired or rich) and want to voyage extensively are a very small minority and even among these most of them only want to voyage in warm climates in the summer were a wheel house serves no real purpose.

You seem to consider that the ones that want a boat for hard sailing capable of sailing in high latitudes and with low maintenance have a kind of superiority over other sailors that prefer to enjoy sailing in a different way and that reflects in the depreciate tone that you use regarding the boats more fit for other kinds of sailing.

Even in what regards voyaging, and considering cars, it is like if you saw as the only appropriated vehicle a very simple slow and inexpensive 4x4, easy to maintain and able to go everywhere (for instance a Lada Niva). I don't want to go everywhere but I like to have fun driving and I like to voyage fast and a lot. I want a Porsche or a Maserati not a very strong low maintenance slow kind of vehicle. I will need more maintenance, I will burn more fuel but if I want the money for it, what is the problem? That's what I like, that is what I want.

It seems to me that you are so focused in your way that you are not able to understand the needs and desires of other sailors.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
Thanks for that. Coming from you I appreciate it.

If I ever have a client interested in home building a steel boat your name will be the first one I mention. You have proven you can make it work. I defer to your experience in that area.


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> For stock plastic boats, there is no doubt that Bob is one of the best plastic boat designers on the planet. If you are looking for a plastic boat, then a Perry design would be one if the better choices. You would only have to put proper lifelines on, a proper wheelhouse and inside steering, and proper aluminium hatches, and you would have one of the best plastic boats anywhere ( and a far better looking boat than most new designs )
> But you would still have a plastic boat, with a fraction the odds of surviving a collision with a container, a fire aboard , thieves, etc . For a new boat, you would have to give up decades of cruising to pay for her. and end up with a boat so marginally faster, you would never sail far enough to make up for the time you spent paying for her.
> This discussion is about pros and cons of steel. Plastic has it's pros and cons, as does steel. For the use most plastic boats are mainly built for ,marina queens, which are rarely used for anything but weekend cruising, and three weeks in summer, plastic boats are ideal .For full time cruising , boats get the same rough treatment as commercial boats, and should be built as tough and maintenance free. Boats which look very Yachty leaving this side of the Pacific , look rough as hell after crossing it. Boats which were plain Jane and easy to maintain, with commercial boat priorities leaving here, look unchanged , and quite immaculate ,by the time they have crossed the Pacific. Its just that much easier to keep them that way . Cleats don't pull out , no varnish to fall off, furlers don't break, anchor winches don't freeze up, blocks don't break or pull out, decks don't leak, etc. etc.


I don't disagree with a lot of that. I have only disagreed with some of the more ridiculous assertions you have previously made.

This thread stopped being about the pros and cons of steel along time ago. Steel as a material clearly has some advantages, yet to suggest anyone crossing the Pacific in a plastic boat is doomed is taking things a bit far.

I like steel boats, I may of bought a steel cruising yacht if there was one suitable in my price range at the time. The good ones were too expensive, the cheap ones too badly built.


----------



## bobperry

Challo:
I don't think Brent knows any better. I have lots of owners of my boats that have taken their boats all over the world and many have done circumnavigations. They have lived/survived to tell the stories. Brent just doesn't know. He is not well informed. Maybe he doesn't get out much. That's probably one reason he calls fiberglass boats "plastic" boats. He likes pergorative labels. They are easier than actually thinking.

Saturday night is my debut in a new local band. Larry the guitar player is a friend of mine. He cruised his Paasport 40 for the last three years. He took it from the PNW through the Pacific and through the canal up to Chesapeake Bay. He'll probably sell the boat now and settle down again near me in the PNW. That's good news for me. I now get to play in Larry's band. Brent has no idea that there are a lot of people doing this in my boats. As George O'Day once said after his big cruise, "There are more people doing offshore cruising in Tayana 37's than any other boat." Brent doesn't know. He chooses not to know. I call it "selective ignorance".

Brent lives in the gloom and doom world of "if you don't do it my way you will die". That has to be a really fun place to live. He is a very narrow minded person who sees what he wants to see and judges others if they don;t see it the same way, note his contant name calling of people with alternative perspectives. But you have to hand it to him, he at least pretends he likes what he sees.

For my money he works way too hard to convince people how happy he is and how content with his life he is while projecting a very angry and malcontent persona here. I would like Brent to understand that there are lots of different ways to go cruising. His way is one way and it is certainly not for everyone. But it is for some and that should be good enough. But I don't think he'll ever get it. We just have to get used to him the way he is. I can do it. I think. It would help if he'd stop telling whoppers to prove his point. But even there, we are pretty used to that. We can handle it. He's fun to have around.

Go figure.


----------



## bobperry

"Boats which look very Yachty leaving this side of the Pacific , look rough as hell after "crossing it. " Brent Swain.

This is another BS classic line. Fact is that my boats look better after crossing an ocean than Brent's do at launch. There must be acceptions but generally speaking and I assure you that this thread is chock a block full of "generally speaking", my boats do not look like Brent's at launch or after crossing an ocean. They never look that bad. Clearly BS and I share very divergent views on aesthetics.

Here are a few of my cruising beauties looking just lovely. I have more. Maybe Brent can match these four pics with four boats from his drawing board.


----------



## WildHorses

Hi - Wild Horses here. We were indeed at Jedediah at about that time, and anchored/stern tied in Deep Bay for lunch and a swim before heading out. We'd been in White Rock Bay the previous couple of nights. No grounding, no touching, no bumping. No nothing but fun. Sorry to cause such a stir!


----------



## bobperry

But, but, but,,,,,I read it on the internet!

Oh, yeah, I forgot:
Welcome WILD HORSES to SN. What a beautiful boat you have.


----------



## smackdaddy

Heh-heh. I love this place.


----------



## outbound

Brent- I hope to be voyaging soon. Seriously looked at wood/epoxy,Fe,Al,grp,and exotics. Took years of research before making final decision. Listened to others experiences and chatted up as many people as I could. Knew I wasn't going to do high latitude sailing (would choose Al in that case). Issue you face is until you accept the performance penalty your designs impose and speak honestly about this you will continue to have a limited audience. Please post PHRF or sailing polars or attested ships logs or something so folks can make informed decisions. I believe below approximately 50ft. the penalty is too high for steel. above that very reasonable performance can be achieved. Paulo has stated he thinks I pay too high a penalty given I opted for a solid glass hull. I'm very happy with my decision. Some folks may be very happy in steel below 50 ft. but please generate some facts so they can make an informed decision.


----------



## outbound

P.s. ? Do your boats have stand pipes? Sea chests ? Is the infill all non flammable? Brent a fire on a boat is everyone's worse nightmare. Even those in steel. Marelon melts.


----------



## Faster

WildHorses said:


> Hi - Wild Horses here. We were indeed at Jedediah at about that time, and anchored/stern tied in Deep Bay for lunch and a swim before heading out. We'd been in White Rock Bay the previous couple of nights. No grounding, no touching, no bumping. No nothing but fun. Sorry to cause such a stir!


Very glad to hear it.. the apologies are mine...

And welcome to SN.


----------



## bobperry

Faster:
I'm glad I have someone up in BC checking on my boats. You are now officially on the payroll.

Pay is low. Dinner and fine drinks at my shack will be your reward when you get down here. I hope to see you soon.


----------



## NCC320

Brent,

Just curious about the Origami method. What exactly is the advantage of that method over first building a "frame" with ribs and stringers, and then applying the outer metal plating on that frame? I ask that question because I watched a series of videos of a couple building a large Origami style boat. It definitely wasn't easy and they struggled to get large plates (i.e. each side of boat) bent and twisted into the correct shape. Working with such large plates is hard and really dangerous without special rigging and know how. Basically, you are trying to force two plates (each side) to take the same shape (opposite hand of course) by applying pushing/pulling forces at various points. To my inexperienced (never done it, don't ever intend to do it) eye, this is a lot more difficult than working first with building a frame to dictate the hull shape and curves, and then applying/welding smaller pieces of plating to get the final hull. Those smaller pieces would seem to be easier to work with for a novice or person with limited tools/facilities, as opposed to welding up two large plates (sides) and then trying to bend and twist them into place.


----------



## bobperry

320:

I have been wondering the same thing for some time. I don't like the idea that I have minimal control of the shape in the ends of the boat. I would be concerned that the boat was symetyrical. I like working with frames so I can be certain the shape achieved is the shape I want and not a product of a geometric method.

Another question for Brent:
Is there a size where the origami method becomes impractical?


----------



## tommays

While this origami thing may be unique in sailboats ?

Anybody who forms sheet-metal or even REALLY THICK METAL knows how to layout most any complex shape in a lay-flat so it can be cut and formed efficiently


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Brent- I hope to be voyaging soon. Seriously looked at wood/epoxy,Fe,Al,grp,and exotics. Took years of research before making final decision. Listened to others experiences and chatted up as many people as I could. Knew I wasn't going to do high latitude sailing (would choose Al in that case). Issue you face is until you accept the performance penalty your designs impose and speak honestly about this you will continue to have a limited audience. Please post PHRF or sailing polars or attested ships logs or something so folks can make informed decisions. I believe below approximately 50ft. the penalty is too high for steel. above that very reasonable performance can be achieved. Paulo has stated he thinks I pay too high a penalty given I opted for a solid glass hull. I'm very happy with my decision. Some folks may be very happy in steel below 50 ft. but please generate some facts so they can make an informed decision.


Do a search under Silas Crosby the first brentboat to round Cape Horn, now cruising SE Alaska. He gives his passage times, which are about average for most plastic cruising boats in the 36 ft size range. Paul Wilson gives his brentboat speeds on the origamiboats site. There he mentions a Bruce Bingham designed Fantasia leaving Fanning four days before him. Paul said he quickly caught up with and passed the Fantasia. Read Moitessier's book "The Long Way " which blows the myth that a 40 ft steel boat is slow. There are many small steel cruisers out cruising, down to 30 feet or less, which make the same passage times as most plastic boats in that size range. You will mete a lot of them when you head out cruising. Ask them about their passage times. Most wouldn't want to be in anything but steel . Few would change to plastic. The huge weight of gear and personal effects most cruisers take, makes the hull material weight irrelevant. There are plenty of plastic boats in the same weight range, or much heavier than my boats. ( Westsails ,Aleuelas, Ingrids, Hereshcoffs, Cape George cutters, etc., etc.) 
The myth that steel is impractical for boats under 50 feet is entirely made up by those trying to sell you plastic. Everyone doing a good passage time in a steel boat under 50 feet, puts a lie to this myth, every time they do.
You may eventually want a steel boat. According to Jimmy Cornell's book "Modern Ocean Cruising" most do, once they get a bit more long term ocean cruising experience.


----------



## Brent Swain

tommays said:


> While this origami thing may be unique in sailboats ?
> 
> Anybody who forms sheet-metal or even REALLY THICK METAL knows how to layout most any complex shape in a lay-flat so it can be cut and formed efficiently


Origami has been standard sheet metal technique for as long as sheet material has been around. Women say 'Exactly like dress making. ' Absolutely!
The problem was, when they started making boats out of steel, they didn't ask the sheet metal workers , who understood the material, they asked the wooden boat builders, who were only used to a material which only had strength in one direction, along the grain ! So, instead of design which took advantage of the omnidirectional strength of steel, and the sizes and shapes available, we got imitation wooden boat building, designed for a material which was only available in planks. This mistake was cast in the dogma of traditionalism for far too long. Origami boat building is one of the first breaks out of this traditionalist dogma, along with Van de Stadts methods.


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## Brent Swain

Another advantage of steel is, it lets you use the best ,strongest, cheapest , and most reliable thru hulls possible, stainless type 316 pipe nipples, welded in . This gives you the added advantage of , they don't have to be at 90 degrees to the hull , saving considerable space inside. I have been using such thru hulls for 37 years, with no problems of any kind.
Another advantage of steel is it's fire resistance. If you get a fire inside, and seal the boat airtight , there is not enough oxygen to enable the fire to last long enough to do significant damage.


----------



## bobperry

Tom:
You take me back to mechanical drawing classes. I can't tell you how many of those devoped surfaces I drafted. I was damn good at it too. The geometry determines that shape. I get it.

Brent: Do you know what "plastic" is?
Brent: Do you know what fiberglass is?
Brent do you know what "composite" is?

You are obsessed with called grp boats "plastic". Go ahead and be a name caller if that's the best you can do. And I am convinced that it is. Everytime I mention Brent Swain and this thread to a sailor I know that say, "Who? Never heard of him."

Why keep saying "plastic" when it is not an accurate term. It's just a way you have of putting down anything that is not yours. You are so pathetically transparent. My clients wouldn't be caught dead in one of your boats. They are boats they are not "yachts" by any standard.

As for performance. We have your word that your 34'ers past the racing fleet in San Diego. What more proof could we want. Here you go. It's Friday night and I think this will be the very first awards you get tonight.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> 320:
> 
> I have been wondering the same thing for some time. I don't like the idea that I have minimal control of the shape in the ends of the boat. I would be concerned that the boat was symetyrical. I like working with frames so I can be certain the shape achieved is the shape I want and not a product of a geometric method.
> 
> Another question for Brent:
> Is there a size where the origami method becomes impractical?


The shape is controlled completely by the shape of the edges. If they are identical ,it is geometrically impossible for them to be anything but identical. The edges are your control. Just as, if you join six plates together ,and they are all square, joined at the corners, it is geometrically impossible for the result to be anything but square. The same rule applies to more complex shapes. 
A friend built a 60 footer using origami methods. That is what I would consider the upper limit. if you want more stiffeners in, you can always add them afterwards, a much simpler job.


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## smackdaddy

Bob,

I'm sorry but obviously you have some facts wrong. From another forum...



Brent Swain said:


> With the number of big logs around , BC plastic boat cruisers are afraid to sail at night. That is why steel boats are so popular around here, especially mine.


Surely you and your sailing friends are nowhere near the treacherous northwestern coast of our fair continent. Otherwise, you would have ALL heard of him and been frantically building your own BrentYachts to survive the deadhead onslaught.


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> P.s. ? Do your boats have stand pipes? Sea chests ? Is the infill all non flammable? Brent a fire on a boat is everyone's worse nightmare. Even those in steel. Marelon melts.


I don't use plastic thru hulls, because they have no advantage over welded in stainless, are flimsy , and yes they do melt. I love standpipes, along with stainless ball valves. The only open thru hull I have on my boat, below the waterline, is the sink drain, just below the waterline, where it can be plugged from outside any time. A friend with a Colvin Saugeen witch had an oil stove overflow ,when he was not aboard . It burned a 2 ft square over the stove, then went out, due to lack of oxygen, despite there being plenty of diesel , wood and foam around . There was not even enough to burn thru the wooden hatches and plastic vents. My brother ,a lifetime Campbell River firefighter, said he has seen the same happen in big department stores. It takes a lot of oxygen , usually an outside source, to keep a fire going.


----------



## NCC320

NCC320 said:


> Brent,
> 
> Just curious about the Origami method. What exactly is the advantage of that method over first building a "frame" with ribs and stringers, and then applying the outer metal plating on that frame? I ask that question because I watched a series of videos of a couple building a large Origami style boat. It definitely wasn't easy and they struggled to get large plates (i.e. each side of boat) bent and twisted into the correct shape. Working with such large plates is hard and really dangerous without special rigging and know how. Basically, you are trying to force two plates (each side) to take the same shape (opposite hand of course) by applying pushing/pulling forces at various points. To my inexperienced (never done it, don't ever intend to do it) eye, this is a lot more difficult than working first with building a frame to dictate the hull shape and curves, and then applying/welding smaller pieces of plating to get the final hull. Those smaller pieces would seem to be easier to work with for a novice or person with limited tools/facilities, as opposed to welding up two large plates (sides) and then trying to bend and twist them into place.


Brent,

You didn't exactly answer the question regarding Origami vs. rib and stringer frame with over plating. You say it's "new way" vs. "old way". There are many things that a proper metal fabricating shop can do with bending and shaping plate. But most of your boats seem to be one off's by "Do it yourself" builders with limited skills, equipment, etc. So still, why isn't the frame method still better than Origami? What are the disadvantages of frame method vs. Origami, or conversely, what does Origami offer over frame method? Once you weld up the material, the steel is more of less continuous plate by either method.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Tom:
> You take me back to mechanical drawing classes. I can't tell you how many of those devoped surfaces I drafted. I was damn good at it too. The geometry determines that shape. I get it.
> 
> Brent: Do you know what "plastic" is?
> Brent: Do you know what fiberglass is?
> Brent do you know what "composite" is?
> 
> You are obsessed with called grp boats "plastic". Go ahead and be a name caller if that's the best you can do. And I am convinced that it is. Everytime I mention Brent Swain and this thread to a sailor I know that say, "Who? Never heard of him."
> 
> Why keep saying "plastic" when it is not an accurate term. It's just a way you have of putting down anything that is not yours. You are so pathetically transparent. My clients wouldn't be caught dead in one of your boats. They are boats they are not "yachts" by any standard.
> 
> As for performance. We have your word that your 34'ers past the racing fleet in San Diego. What more proof could we want. Here you go. It's Friday night and I think this will be the very first awards you get tonight.


I have been told that Websters dictionary defines "plastic "as that which can be easily molded. 
No Bob, I don't have a 34 foot design.
I have no interest in impressing those who seek "decorative flimsiness" as the definition of a boat's quality. My clients have more experience than that ,and , or , are more practical.


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## bobperry

"BC plastic boat cruisers are afraid to sail at night. "

Brent, do you really believe this?
You do need to get out more.

Poor fragile little Westsail, can't sail at night?

Ok 32'er. Who cares, it was totally BS statement. I can dig up your comments if I have to. But they were really silly and a clear case of your perspective on reality.

Hey, lets have some fun:
Brent how about posting one of your hull lines drawings.
I'll show you mine if you shw me yours.
I'd love to see how you actually control the design of those shapes.
Make it quick though. I think I'll go fishing soon. Coho are running.


----------



## Brent Swain

NCC320 said:


> Brent,
> 
> You didn't exactly answer the question regarding Origami vs. rib and stringer frame with over plating. You say it's "new way" vs. "old way". There are many things that a proper metal fabricating shop can do with bending and shaping plate. But most of your boats seem to be one off's by "Do it yourself" builders with limited skills, equipment, etc. So still, why isn't the frame method still better than Origami? What are the disadvantages of frame method vs. Origami, or conversely, what does Origami offer over frame method? Once you weld up the material, the steel is more of less continuous plate by either method.


Origami drastically reduces the number of meters of seams you have it cut, fit , grind and weld. You would have to look at my book, Alex's video, or the step by step building photos on the origamiboats site, to see how we eliminated the need for lifting , making large plates much easier and quicker to use than a lot of small plates, or eliminated the need for bending equipment, or a well equipped shop. 
I pulled Dale Deforest's hull," Exit" together in two days . The steel arrived Thursday afternoon, and by 11 pm Friday, the hull was together, the transom in, and the stringers and all the bulwark caps on. You couldn't get out of the starting gate ,using a fully framed method, in that time. Sure a first timer would take longer ,but a lot less time than using the fully framed method.
When a sheet of steel comes form the supplier, it is fair. The less you have to do to it, the fairer it will remain.
Sometimes we can only get 20 ft sheets, which adds to the time, and takes careful techniques to get the seam fair . It would be a huge amount of work to do that over many seams, with far less fair results, and a lot of filler required.


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## bobperry

Brent:
Are you sure you want to talk about yacht quality "fair"?
This is fair. I have never seen anything from you that looks remotely fair by this standard.

Maybe you don't have the eye to judge "fair".
Kind of fair is not fair.


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## bobperry

Here's a couple to get you started Brent.


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## Bob142

I am presently sailing a " Tupperware Boat" ...Although the number of dead heads and low floaters has been reduced by bundle booms and self dumping barges they are probably more common then submergered containers...A steel boat or a good lookout is required in the PNW...


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## blt2ski

Bob142 said:


> ......... a good lookout is required in the PNW...


THat is ALL one needs in the salish sea. "A good look out" If not, then if you hit a log at something over planing speeds, or say 15-20 knots in a power boat, or one of them Icon thing a ma bobs, then maybe a log will hole you! Then again, maybe not depending upon how you hit said log.........

Hitting a log is not something I worry about in my "plastic" boat! Heck, not too many folks are worried about hitting logs in there hypalon/grp bottom boats! so I need a steelie because why?

Marty


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## bobperry

I've hit a few logs over the years. Hard enough to get your attention. I have hit rocks even harder, much harder. I have pretty much always been sailing grp boats. I have never had a log put a hole in the boat or stop the day's fun. Just a bump in the night and then on with the fun.

Brent seems to live in a dangerous world where the elements are all conspiring to to attack his boats. Cosmic karma?


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Here's a couple to get you started Brent.


Nice lines! You definitely have a good set of eyes for shape, the best in the business.The first one looks like better hull balance than the second one. Don't have much faith in fig leaf rudders tho. Raking them aft reduces their efficiency , style over substance.
No, I don't give my designs away for free. I haven't been charging the exorbitant rates you charge, to enable me to afford to do that, at this point in time.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Brent:
> Are you sure you want to talk about yacht quality "fair"?
> This is fair. I have never seen anything from you that looks remotely fair by this standard.
> 
> Maybe you don't have the eye to judge "fair".
> Kind of fair is not fair.


Amazing what a drum of bondo will do! I knew of a very fair round bilged Brewer design which used two 45 gallon drums of filler
You can read any British magazine and they refer to all fibreglass boats as GRP, which means "Glass Reinforced "PLASTIC". What part of "Plastic" do you not understand?
When the strength of my boats was questioned, I mentioned what some have survived, such as 16 days pounding on a west coast Baja lee shore in 8 to 12 ft surf for 16 days , pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef, in big surf, then being dragged back over it by a tug, undamaged, a collision with a freighter, again undamaged,( as documented in "around the World on Viski") then a single season trip thru the NW passage ( as documented in "The NW Passage on Ten Dollars a Day " By George Hone and" Arctic Odysey",by Len Sherman) again undamaged. Bob's response? Did he give us similar trials which his boats have survived? No way , he implied that boats should not be made so strong, because if they were not that strong ,those trials would never have happened! Now that is an indication of someone with zero cruising experience. Changing the subject is an admission you have no relevant argument to make!
So no Perry design has ever gone aground, or been lost or damaged by accident ? Accidents simply don't happen to your designs, as fate would never DARE damage any boat with YOUR name on it? No one need ever worry about anything ever DARING TO damage one of YOUR designs? Do you put that guarantee in writing for all your clients, as an excuse for why they should rest assured that nothing will ever damage or sink any of your designs, so survivability is irrelevant, as long as they are sailing one of YOUR designs?
So give us a rundown Bob, of all the weeks of pounding on lee shores in big surf that your boats have survived, undamaged ,coral reefs they have pounded over, and collisions they have survived, relatively undamaged. Or are you again going to weasel out, by claiming that strength is irrelevant in cruising boats, because if they are flimsy enough, that wont ever happen?

My boats survive by well proven design, with decades of track record of surviving extreme challenges, and the toughest material for boatbuilding available. Bob's depend on "COSMIC KARMA." Which would you prefer to risk colliding with Fukashima debris in? Which would YOU choose to risk your crew and family in?


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## Brent Swain

blt2ski said:


> THat is ALL one needs in the salish sea. "A good look out" If not, then if you hit a log at something over planing speeds, or say 15-20 knots in a power boat, or one of them Icon thing a ma bobs, then maybe a log will hole you! Then again, maybe not depending upon how you hit said log.........
> 
> Hitting a log is not something I worry about in my "plastic" boat! Heck, not too many folks are worried about hitting logs in there hypalon/grp bottom boats! so I need a steelie because why?
> 
> Marty


A good lookout, on a foggy, moonless night, when you can barely see past your bow, is all you need to keep you safe? Logs never damage plastic boats?
Ya sure!


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## Brent Swain

Another huge advantage of steel boats is they eliminate the need for keel bolts, and all the worries about hidden corrosion they cause. Sure, some plastic boats have inside ballast, but that has its liabilities as well. I remember in 74, seeing a plastic boat hauled out in Auckland, which once had inside ballast . There was a clean break where the top of the ballast had been glassed over. The ballast was on St Hellier's reef, which it had hit.
Neither that , nor keel bolt failure is possible in a well built steel boat.


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## bobperry

Brent you are such an angry little guy.

You have no idea what you are talking about re rudder post rake and no experience with designing spade rudders to back up any of your BS theories.

Fairness:
Look at your boats. There is not a fair spot on the entire hull of any of them that I have seen. They are lumpy, bumpy and very crude looking. Agricultural in qualty at best.

Lines:
Waiting to see some of your lines Brent . But if past performance is any gauge you won't post any but instead you will endeavor to change the subject by launching other random attacks. We have seen this time and time again. It's the BS way.

I'm still waiting for some photos of beautiful BS designs. Surely you have some to post. I have lots more.

" he implied that boats should not be made so strong, because if they were not that strong ,those trials would never have happened!"
Where do you get this BS, BS? You continue to make things up when it pleases you. That's called not being honest. You are getting desperate.


Playing in the new band with Larry tonight in Everett. Larry has been cruising his Passport 40 for three years. The boat is now in Annapolis and Larry is back home. It's amazing that Larry actually survived cruising for three years in one of my boats. But he did and he enjoyed it.

So save your angry, "the sky is falling" gloom and doom BS, BS. I have a lot of people sailing my boats who are doing just fine.

If you doubt my boats can do it Brent I suggest younstudy this. Memorize it. It might do you good. When you are done I can give you lots more like it. Mark Sxchaeder even did it again in one of my other designs. He likes them. Do you really think I got to be where I am by making stuff up like you do? Silly Brent.

In the words of John Kretschmer, noted yachting author:
This boat made its debut on the sailing scene in the mid '70s and subsequently altered the attitudes of performance cruisers everywhere. Can you identify it? 

"OK, dear readers, I hope you didn't stop by Sailnet looking for fun, or even some modest enlightenment about how to do something on or with your boat. Nope, today it's time to test your sailboat IQ. We are going back in history a bit, but not too far, about 30 years ago, to the birth of an American classic. Ready or not, here we go.

What boat launched the storied career of naval architect Bob Perry? What boat is usually considered the first performance cruiser? What boat did Mark Schrader sail on his 1983 epic circumnavigation south of the five great capes? What boat was named “cruiser of the decade,” by Sail Magazine in 1980 and inducted into the Sailboat Hall of Fame in 1997? What boat did Francis Stokes sail in the 1976 and 1980 OSTARs? What boat epitomized the dreaded “pox,” that came to haunt the fiberglass boatbuilding industry in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s? What boat—and this one needs an asterisk—has been in continuous production longer than other? What boat is built today on an inland lake, a long way from the ocean? What boat represents one of the best buys on the used boat market for blue water cruising? By now you've either quit reading and clicked over to something more interesting or likely figured out that this is a trick quiz and there is only one answer. If your answer is the legendary Valiant 40, you're right and that means you really know you boats. Or, like me, you're just getting older."

Thanks John.


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## blt2ski

A foggy moonless night?!?! well, Doubt I would be going fast enough to worry about a log frankly! Probably 2-3 knots. I've hit a few logs or equal at that speed, so far so good! Then again, only a matter of time?!?!?!?!?

Have to admit, you do seem a bit angry or something as Bob says. Here I thought my Ex was an angry beetch!

ANY boat being used on the water that time, is a good boat! some are made for one purpose, other another, still yet, others for another reason! I have felt there is NO BEST boats since I was a mid single digit aged punk if you will, unlimited hydro's were king in seattle at the time. Oh those pistons sounded good. Have to admit, once you get used to the whine of a turbine, those sound KEWL too! Then again, sailing with only water sounds and air noise around you, assuming you can hear those sounds.....that is nice too. Be it a dinghy, mid teen daysailer in sloop form, maybe one of them highspeed formula 40 cats, ala DragonFly! or ______________<fill in the blank>!!!

So I am here at home playing on sailnet, when it is sunny, mid 70''s, nice north wind instead of being on my unsafe plastic boat because why? or in my 14' plastic canoe paddling!...........

Marty


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## bobperry

Come on Marty, drive down to the the winery tonight and watch me rock the house.

We start at 7pm. Got to run.


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## blt2ski

Which winery?!?!?!?


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## blt2ski

lets see, which winery.....I know of at least 2 dozen in woodinville along, from st michelle, to columbia to multitudes of smaller ones. Know of two here in Edmonds, there is olympic near pa.....oh boy! this hurts the brain electron a LOT! remembering all them places to drink wine at.......oh boy ohboy ohboy.........


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Which would you prefer to risk colliding with Fukashima debris in? Which would YOU choose to risk your crew and family in?


Gozirra!


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## NCC320

Brent,

This guy seems to have combined both the Origami method (with the fewer welds) with wood frames (not permanent to boat as would be welded rib and stringer frame) to assure shape and computer program to define the shape.






I noticed that the boat he is building is a modern design. All of the pictures of your boats that I have seen seem to be older designs. Lots of people have described your boats as not being pretty, but part of that is probably that your designs look dated (at least to my eye). Dated or modern, either way, people can cruise them.

Using your exact method, could you build a modern looking boat....like that one in the video? Just thinking, if you can, and you were to update your designs, you'd have a bigger market. Maybe some collaboration with the computer expert that was mentioned in the video might be a quick way to do it.

Sorry if my comments above are out of line....in such case, please disregard.


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## smackdaddy

Great video. Thanks NC. Those are actually some nice looking boats.

Seems they went out of business pretty quickly though. Bummer.


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## smackdaddy

Okay - I'm mystified. It seems Brent is weaseling out of The Great Block Test of 2013:

+++++++++

From another forum...



Brent Swain said:


> Nice looking block. Not your average $30 Lewmar. More like $95 each. Carry that kind of thinking thru a whole boat building and outfitting process, and you will never leave home, deleting the reason for building a boat in the first place , like Smack has always done ,or advocated.
> *A friend has some Schafer yachty type blocks, he will trade me for one of mine. I will do the test, and have him video it, then post it here and elsewhere. He will be better off with one of mine. He knows that !*


Brent, you're backing out now? Schaefers aren't Garhauers. So you're lowering the bar bro. You still haven't told me where to send the money for the block. Why is that? I'm starting to wonder if you're a little worried.

Oh, and you need to read more carefully. The Garhauer I spec'd above is less than $22.



> Single Blocks with Adjustable Shackle
> 25-13 US - Stainless Steel Blocks
> length:	4-1/4	width:	2
> weight:	5 oz	shackle:	3/16
> sheave diameter: 1-3/4
> 
> Comes with set screw to make it fixed shackle. Safe working load is 1150 lbs.
> 
> *$21.42*


That's why I offered you $11 for one of yours...1/2 the price of the Garhauer. It's a tremendous profit for you. And I'm ready to send you the money. So? Are you going to pony up? Or weasel out?

++++++++++++++++

Surely Brent's not this scared. He seemed so confident in his product. Hmm.


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## bobperry

Back from my gig. Music was good.

Bent seems to fade away when you ask for any reality.

He does far better when he can make up is own facts.

I'm still waiting for four nice looking BS boats. That is really sad that BS can't proviide four nice looking boats I can provide countless. Countless.


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## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Back from my gig. Music was good.
> 
> Bent seems to fade away when you ask for any reality.
> 
> He does far better when he can make up is own facts.
> 
> I'm still waiting for four nice looking BS boats. That is really sad that BS can't proviide four nice looking boats I can provide countless. Countless.


Don't worry Bob. Brent will do the block thing. He makes an insanely good profit and the block he sends me crushes the Garhauer, once again proving him right. There's just absolutely no reason not to do it. Well, okay, there's the fact that _not_ doing it would prove _you_ right. But that won't be an issue. He's very confident in his work - it's been proven again and again over decades. Absolutely no downside.

Here's another thing I love about Brent:



Brent Swain said:


> Nice lines! You definitely have a good set of eyes for shape, the best in the business.The first one looks like better hull balance than the second one. Don't have much faith in fig leaf rudders tho. Raking them aft reduces their efficiency , style over substance.


"You're the best in the business. Now let me tell you what's wrong with your work."


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## JomsViking

smackdaddy said:


> Don't worry Bob. Brent will do the block thing. He makes an insanely good profit and the block he sends me crushes the Garhauer, once again proving him right. There's just absolutely no reason not to do it. Well, okay, there's the fact that not doing it would prove you right. But that won't be an issue. He's very confident in his work - it's been proven again and again over decades. Absolutely no downside.
> 
> Here's another thing I love about Brent:
> 
> "You're the best in the business. Now let me tell you what's wrong with your work."


+ Tactics, such as using the term "fig leaf" instead of providing real proven data on spade rudders is another often employed tactic of psychopats/fanatics that has nothing but belief that their way is the only way, but can't support it with facts.


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## bobperry

"fig leaf" rudder? I kind of like that. I might use that in a review.

Hope you get your block Smacker. I hope t's strong. I know it's going to be ugly. I hope you don't damage your car.


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## bobperry

Told you.
The moments things get real BS goes "cruising".


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## outbound

Brent- just got into Newport r.i. Myboat's in the show. Coming down hit something at 8.4 kts. About 4' square white thingy about one foot below the surface. In the chop didn't see it until it passed under the stern.
Amazing thing no damage to hull or rudder. Although it made a big thunk. Didn't sink or be swallowed by a whale either.


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## smackdaddy

Not possible.

Definitely not Fukushima Debris. Maybe something from Mattresses R Us?


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## outbound

Smack- amazing thing.now tied to a pier so able to check most of hull. Can't even see any impact point. Gee and I thought grp was as tough as w et bread.


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## kimbottles

FWIW I have done a lot of boating in the last 60+ years and I have hit floating and semi-floating objects VERY HARD in traditional wood boats, contemporary composite wood boats (cold molded West System), solid glassfiber boats, balsa cored glassfiber boats and an aluminum boat. Never took a drop of water in any of the incidents.

Speeds involved were:
Aluminum 35 knots (powerboat)
West System 20 knots (powerboat)
Solid Glass 8 knots (sailboat)
Cored Glass 8 knots (sailboat)
Wood 7 knots (sailboat)

From what I have read composite construction can be stronger than steel pound for pound. Of all of the incidents I have experienced the West System boat felt the strongest.

I am sure steel is strong, but given all of the other issues with steel it would not be my first choice for a boat building material. I think when taking all aspects of boat building material into account I would always chose some sort of epoxy composite material (as we have done on the Francis Lee project.)

People vote with their dollars on boats, having owned and/or operated vessels built of just about every boat building material there is, I vote for epoxy composite construction.

You are of course free to vote however you so chose.

(The only time I ever hit something and took on water was when I ripped an outdrive off hitting an unseen submerged object. That was the only insurance claim I have ever had in 60+ years of boating.)

Kim


----------



## bobperry

I ran my Mercedes into a ditch one night and did a lot ot damage.

Out: Beware the delayed reaction. You could have festering wounds to your laminate that you can't see.

Honestly I'm glad your alive to tell the tale. Going to sea in that flimsy boat? You should be ashamed of yourself.


----------



## smackdaddy

kimbottles said:


> (The only time I ever hit something and took on water was when I ripped an outdrive off hitting an unseen submerged object. That was the only insurance claim I have ever had in 60+ years of boating.)


It was probably a BrentBoat you hit. According to a friend, one was sitting just beneath the water on a rock (submarine-mode) in that area waiting for low tide about the time you mention. Dry as bone inside of course. The owner was having ice cream. You probably mistook the mast for a channel marker pylon or old tree and cut it too close.

Just goes to show how strong BrentBoats are. Ripped your flimsy outdrive right out. The BrentBoat didn't have a scratch once it surfaced and moved to another rock the next day when the towtruck driver came and hitched it back up.

60+ years is impressive, but with all due respect, I notice you don't have steel on your list of past boat materials. So you can't possibly understand the merits of Swaintology.


----------



## outbound

Will tap the hull next haul out but doubt injury. Think most impacts are oblique to the hull making forces less and effective thickness of the hul more.


----------



## bobperry

Out:
I was kidding. I'm sure your solid lam is as good as the day it was new.

The Church of Swaintology? I like it.


----------



## outbound

Once hit a car- yes a car- floating half submersed in a Tayana 37 coming back from Hamilton. Things that go bump in the night. No damage. Kinda takes some of the wind out of BS sails. Agree rubbing on a reef the mohls number (? Do I have the right scale) for Fe is better but in the real world is this a significant issue.


----------



## bobperry

****ski OUT:
You were probably on the wrong side of the road.


----------



## outbound

It still had the white PLASTIC stuck to the roof. That must be what saved me.all praises to the church of swainology.


----------



## Faster

:laugher:... OK, now you guys are having too much fun


----------



## bobperry

Yeah, I had some fun. And now I am paying for it.


----------



## SloopJonB

outbound said:


> Once hit a car- yes a car- floating half submersed in a Tayana 37 coming back from Hamilton. Things that go bump in the night. No damage. Kinda takes some of the wind out of BS sails. Agree rubbing on a reef the mohls number (? Do I have the right scale) for Fe is better but in the real world is this a significant issue.


Sorry, but I just can't resist - how did a car get half submerged in a Tayana 37?


----------



## chall03

smackdaddy said:


> It was probably a BrentBoat you hit. According to a friend, one was sitting just beneath the water on a rock (submarine-mode) in that area waiting for low tide about the time you mention. Dry as bone inside of course. The owner was having ice cream. You probably mistook the mast for a channel marker pylon or old tree and cut it too close.
> 
> Just goes to show how strong BrentBoats are. Ripped your flimsy outdrive right out. The BrentBoat didn't have a scratch once it surfaced and moved to another rock the next day when the towtruck driver came and hitched it back up.
> 
> 60+ years is impressive, but with all due respect, I notice you don't have steel on your list of past boat materials. So you can't possibly understand the merits of Swaintology.


How's your Brentblock??

I once hit a fire hydrant. However it wasn't hidden, or submerged. It was in fact attached to a marina, well it _was_ attached to the Marina until I hit it with my bow roller, which is luckily made out of stainless steel. Hey why don't more people make boats out of 318?

Either way I guess the story is kind of irrelevant, other than that incident (and my wife repeatedly) did remind me that the best cruising philosophy is to NOT hit things.


----------



## smackdaddy

chall03 said:


> How's your Brentblock??


I'm getting a little worried. It seems he might be backing out. I don't get it. How could someone turn down over 500% in profit and a chance to prove the naysayers wrong?


----------



## bljones




----------



## smackdaddy

Dude, have you not yet learned that on the interwebs - it's never dead?


----------



## bobperry

You tried Smack. I think in many cases we have been fair with our requests for Brent. But he likes to duck out when the reality sets in. I never got a weight study. I never got a set of lines. I proudly publish my own examples of that stuff because I think they show the care that I put into new designs.

Here is some reality from my camp. The Sliver Prject FRANCIS LEE gets some paint on the deck. A lot of it will get sanded off as we strive for a very fair deck.


----------



## bljones

smackdaddy said:


> Dude, have you not yet learned that on the interwebs - it's never dead?


----------



## bobperry

I really miss that guy.

Voyage of the Raging Queen was my favorite SNL skit series.


----------



## jak3b

Video: The Luck Of The Irish, According To John Belushi. ~ Frequency


----------



## JomsViking

Glad they're steel:






Oooh no, they're GRP (or plastic to use a Swainism)


----------



## Faster

JomsViking said:


> Glad they're steel:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oooh no, they're GRP (or plastic to use a Swainism)


Was that a manned mission??


----------



## Brent Swain

For anyone wanting feedback on my designs , a client ( Andy Deering) had his letter published in the June issue of Latitude 38. 
Latitude 38 Letters - June 2013

He gives some interesting conclusions after 60,000 miles cruising the Pacific , from the Southern Ocean to the Aleutians. I think with that kind of experience, he knows a lot more about my boats that any armchair expert with near zero cruising experience, siting in a chair , juggling numbers. I think he nails the source of the problem.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> I'm getting a little worried. It seems he might be backing out. I don't get it. How could someone turn down over 500% in profit and a chance to prove the naysayers wrong?


I'm currently cruising beautiful islands, deserted by the summer crowds, where the swimming is still excellent, the hunting and fishing great, and to do what Smack demands would mean going back to the city early. So why would I give up a minute in paradise, because some envious armchair expert , who thinks I am having to much fun( which I am!) demands I drop everything and cater to his demands?
Ask me again in the late fall, when I have nothing better to do.
Not a lot of internet access in these islands. None on Read island , nor northern Cortes, nor the Bretons, nor the Redondas, nor Unwin Lake, etc. So when I go off line , just assume I am in a distant corner of paradise, enjoying the swimming , fishing, hunting etc. away from the childish demands of armchair experts, and I am again having way too much fun.( Which according to some Puritans, is "doing it all wrong.")
I have seen this kind of warm weather last till late October. After last summer, looking for firewood to keep warm in late July, this summer has been the exact opposite. I wont feel cheated this year, whenever winter comes.


----------



## djodenda

bobperry said:


> I really miss that guy.
> 
> Voyage of the Raging Queen was my favorite SNL skit series.


My uncle did Belushi's autopsy..

(too off topic ?)


----------



## Brent Swain

kimbottles said:


> FWIW I have done a lot of boating in the last 60+ years and I have hit floating and semi-floating objects VERY HARD in traditional wood boats, contemporary composite wood boats (cold molded West System), solid glassfiber boats, balsa cored glassfiber boats and an aluminum boat. Never took a drop of water in any of the incidents.
> 
> Speeds involved were:
> Aluminum 35 knots (powerboat)
> West System 20 knots (powerboat)
> Solid Glass 8 knots (sailboat)
> Cored Glass 8 knots (sailboat)
> Wood 7 knots (sailboat)
> 
> From what I have read composite construction can be stronger than steel pound for pound. Of all of the incidents I have experienced the West System boat felt the strongest.
> 
> I am sure steel is strong, but given all of the other issues with steel it would not be my first choice for a boat building material. I think when taking all aspects of boat building material into account I would always chose some sort of epoxy composite material (as we have done on the Francis Lee project.)
> 
> People vote with their dollars on boats, having owned and/or operated vessels built of just about every boat building material there is, I vote for epoxy composite construction.
> 
> You are of course free to vote however you so chose.
> 
> (The only time I ever hit something and took on water was when I ripped an outdrive off hitting an unseen submerged object. That was the only insurance claim I have ever had in 60+ years of boating.)
> 
> Kim


You are still left with the inevitable deck leaks, which require you to re-bed things down from time to time. Welded down stainless never leaks.
Wooden boats are impossible to insulate adequately , without inviting dry rot. They also are far more flammable, and thru hulls in them are far less trouble free, than welded in stainless pipe nipples. It doesn't let you use a part of your hull as a keel cooler, leaving you with salt water intake, salt water pump and heat exchanger problems.
I once hit a sunken bulldozer at hull speed, in Christmas Island lagoon . Zero damage .


----------



## djodenda

I keep a roll of thick plastic on my boat with the hopes that I could reduce the leakage if I have a hull breach.

Useless?
Paranoid?
Smart?


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Come on Marty, drive down to the the winery tonight and watch me rock the house.
> 
> We start at 7pm. Got to run.


Does your affection for the winery explain your posts? Sure looks that way! 
Be careful, that is dangerous stuff. Screwed up a lot of lives!


----------



## bobperry

Brent: 
Nice letter from one happy customer. Good for you.
But you still sound very defensive and angry. You work so hard at trying to describe the perfection of your life. You seem to enjoy attacking and name calling if people don't agree with your philosphy. You do a lot of name calling. Name calling is a very weak way of trying to make a point. It hasn't worked for you here after all your tries.

Live and let live Brent. Enjoy your success and let other enjoy theirs. Just in case you missed it, I know you would hate that, here is FRANCIS LEE getting the deck painted or actually faired at this point. It makes me very happy to watch this project as I'm sure it makes you happy to watch your projects come to life. End of October we should see a launch.


----------



## djodenda

While racing in the Northern Century Race last month with my daughter (The first father-daughter team to ever compete (yes, I'm bragging))..

I had finally broken free of Haro Strait, and was making over 9 knots OTG on the way to Hein Bank..

It was the middle of the night, and I was about 30 hours into the race.. I was very tired.. 

All of the sudden I saw what looked like a telephone pole pass by my lee.. maybe 6 feet away.. freaked me out

then another...

and another..

Realized that it was shadows from the moonlight on the waves..

Freaky.


----------



## bobperry

Brent: I got this nice email today from a fellow who has been cruising his Baba 30 in the So Pac for the past five years.


"I would also like to thank you personally for giving the boating industry what I think of as the best cruzing vessels available.

Mahalo,
Ryan Sluss"


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
You were out in Haro? at night? in a grp boat? with your daughter? And you lived to tell this story?
Brave man.


----------



## Brent Swain

Bob , you are the poster boy for what Andy describes as attacking any suggestion that people don't need a huge amount of money to cruise.
Sure, prostitution to the corporate world pays, $150 an hour I am told, but I am not about to screw anyone out of their cruising dreams ,by spreading disinformation designed to screw them out of their dreams, further padding the over padded nest of the rich. I don't do that kind of "Designing."
Should anyone be ashamed that such elitist "Designing " pisses him off? I'm not!
I enjoy seeing one of my boats launched ,especially by someone who couldn't have afforded it without my help. Far more satisfying.


----------



## djodenda

bobperry said:


> Denda:
> You were out in Haro? at night? in a grp boat? with your daughter? And you lived to tell this story?
> Brave man.


Yes, Bob 

I'm a pretty careful sailor.. We stayed clipped in, and off the foredeck at night.

No flying sails at night either, which hurt us.

I feel very safe in my GRP boat.

I also build GRP airplanes.

I'll still feel safe when I finally get a chance to fly on one.

Different materials and constructions have different failure modes.

It's clear to me that well-built GRP boats are plenty strong enough.

Even if the "telephone poles" were real, I expect I would have ridden right over them.


----------



## Brent Swain

djodenda said:


> While racing in the Northern Century Race last month with my daughter (The first father-daughter team to ever compete (yes, I'm bragging))..
> 
> I had finally broken free of Haro Strait, and was making over 9 knots OTG on the way to Hein Bank..
> 
> It was the middle of the night, and I was about 30 hours into the race.. I was very tired..
> 
> All of the sudden I saw what looked like a telephone pole pass by my leeward.. maybe 6 feet away.. freaked me out
> 
> then another...
> 
> and another..
> 
> Realized that it was shadows from the moonlight on the waves..
> 
> Freaky.


A handy trick for entering a harbour at night, is to find a light beam shining on the water, from the direction you want to go. Follow the light beam and if there were anything between you and it ,it would show up clearly.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Brent:
> Nice letter from one happy customer. Good for you.
> But you still sound very defensive and angry. You work so hard at trying to describe the perfection of your life. You seem to enjoy attacking and name calling if people don't agree with your philosphy. You do a lot of name calling. Name calling is a very weak way of trying to make a point. It hasn't worked for you here after all your tries.
> 
> Live and let live Brent. Enjoy your success and let other enjoy theirs. Just in case you missed it, I know you would hate that, here is FRANCIS LEE getting the deck painted or actually faired at this point. It makes me very happy to watch this project as I'm sure it makes you happy to watch your projects come to life. End of October we should see a launch.


 I don't have my winery to keep me happy! I don't drink, so I have to deal with reality.
Angry? Me? No way! I just believe in stating the facts, against all the disinformation the ship swindlers and their gigilos are spreading.


----------



## djodenda

Brent Swain said:


> A handy trick for entering a harbour at night, is to find a light beam shining on the water, from the direction you want to go. Follow the light beam and if there were anything between you and it ,it would show up clearly.


Makes sense..

My brother just returned from a cruise on his 25' Ranger Tug to Alaska from Everett.

He said that he saw a lot more logs in the water in the BC waters than in U.S. waters.

Different regulations, I guess


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
Get this straight, if you can:
I just design boats. I do not look into the finances of my clients. If they can pay my design fees than they are fine with me. I am not judgmental about how my clients make their money. I do not question their motivation and I am not judgmental about how they plan to enjoy their yachts. I just design yachts. Isn't that enough?

In order to own the yachts they want my client have to be well heeled. It's just part of the yachting program. Nobody ever said yachting was cheap.

My custom boat clients all have a lot more money than I have. But I am friends with all of them. One of them just called me today to check in. They are good people. Being wealthy does not make you evil.

You have your customers and I have my clientèle. Isn't that good enough.

"Bob , you are the poster boy "
There you go with your angry name calling again.
I suppose I could be angry. The dogs would hate it. Hell, I'd hate it. I'll leave being angry to you. You seem to like it.

I'm relaxing this afternoon. I designed a tiller head fitting for FRANCIS LEE this morning. It will be a bit expensive but it will look good on the boat. I enjoyed doing the drawing. I like designing details.

"ship swindlers and their gigilos are spreading. "
Gosh, we are going to get a lot of BS name calling tonight. You seem quite angry.

Me? a winery? Not quite but I'd do like wine but not cheap wine.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I once hit a sunken bulldozer at hull speed, in Christmas Island lagoon . Zero damage .


Hey this is a new one.

Hull speed? It's pretty hard to do any damage to anything at 1 knot. How did you know it was a bulldozer? You leave one hell of a trashy wake, dude.

As for the block, take your time. I definitely don't want to impinge on your cruising. Just tell me where to send the money and we'll get that part out of the way - then I'll trust you to make it in the next 2-3 months. No demands at all.


----------



## Brent Swain

Bob
Most of my steel hulls are as fair as any of yours, without the need for a drop of filler. Zero humps or bumps, Show me a fairer steel boat with zero filler. There are none.
And you call me a liar? Where does that leave your credibility?


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
What kind of planes do you build.
One of my clients had two GlassAirs (sp). One had fixed gear and the other retractable. He also flew his own Citation jet. I did a nice 69'er for him. BS would have hated this guy. Lived on a golf course and didn't play golf! But he was a good guy and he treated me very well. 

He crash landed his Citation into the water just off the beach on Whidby Island. He swam away from that landing.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Hey this is a new one.
> 
> Hull speed? It's pretty hard to do any damage to anything at 1 knot. How did you know it was a bulldozer? You leave one hell of a trashy wake, dude.
> 
> As for the block, take your time. I definitely don't want to impinge on your cruising. Just tell me where to send the money and we'll get that part out of the way - then I'll trust you to make it in the next 2-3 months. No demands at all.


Ever been to Christmas Island? After the nuclear tests of the 50s, they left the lagoon full of all kinds of garbage , jeeps, bulldozers, scrap metal , etc. etc. Its a real junk pile. So are the beaches in the lagoon.


----------



## djodenda

bobperry said:


> Denda:
> What kind of planes do you build.


The really big passenger planes that test fly over your house some times.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> For anyone wanting feedback on my designs , a client ( Andy Deering) had his letter published in the June issue of Latitude 38.
> Latitude 38 Letters - June 2013
> 
> He gives some interesting conclusions after 60,000 miles cruising the Pacific , from the Southern Ocean to the Aleutians. I think with that kind of experience, he knows a lot more about my boats that any armchair expert with near zero cruising experience, siting in a chair , juggling numbers. I think he nails the source of the problem.


I would welcome the input of Andy on this or any other forum. I would definitely challenge this statement though, Andy:



> I guess it's no surprise that he has been banned from several boatbuilding sites. Why? Because he challenges the status quo.
> 
> Most of these so called 'experts' are armchair designers who've never built anything - let alone built and lived on their designs, cruised the oceans with them, and maintained them for decades on a budget. Folks like Brent are a threat to their businesses, and banning his input is their answer to that threat.


I've been around for a few of Brent's bannings, and have come across a few more - and I can absolutely say those bannings had very little to do with him simply "challenging the status quo" - and more with things like insulting the family of those he disagreed with (like happened here).

So, Andy, though your letter is written like an exact copy of Brent's posts, I'll assume he didn't ghost write it for you and would love to hear about your real experiences in terms of cost, time requirements, etc. involved in building and maintaining a BrentBoat.

Oh, and how many containers and rocks have you hit?


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Ever been to Christmas Island? After the nuclear tests of the 50s, they left the lagoon full of all kinds of garbage , jeeps, bulldozers, scrap metal , etc. etc. Its a real junk pile. So are the beaches in the lagoon.


Nice. Sounds like the kind of paradise only a steel boat could get you to.


----------



## bobperry

"Most of my steel hulls are as fair as any of yours, without the need for a drop of filler."

If you really believe that Brent you are blind. In fact I'm not even going to think you DO believe that. It is preposterous.

"these so called 'experts' are armchair designers "
I have to admit Andy has the BS name calling thing down pretty good.

What I think is happening here, from my perspective is that while I have zero trouble with the home builders of the BS boats who cruise on a shoe string, BS has a problem with the lifestyle and cruising style of my clients. I don't know why. There has to be room for both.

I can hear a lawn mower. It's Chris my lawn guy mowing my lawn. I like to have my lawn mowed and edged. It looks all manicured and nice.

I had a client once, I'll call him Daryl, because that is his name. He had a fabulous yard very beautifully landscaped with many fancy bushes and trees, He would have a couple gardeners come in every Saturday morning early and they would spend the morning working on Daryl's yard. I was over at his house one Saturday morning and Daryl said, "I love to wake up and hear the servants at work." I thought that was really funny. Daryl enjoyed paying for the best help he could get and he was generous. He would come to my office on Wednesdays and sit by my side while I worked on his design. I considered myself one of Daryl's "servants" and I didn't mind that at all. I was a very good servant. It was a bit of a problem with the sequence of my work but Daryl always brought his checkbook. He was having fun.

When I finished the design for Daryl he said, "OK, now I see how this works. Let's start from scratch but we'll make it bigger this time. If I built this first design it would be like marrying my first girlfriend."

Then Daryl spent about a million dollars at Jespersens getting a very beautiful alu boat. Brian Ryley did the alu work. It was superb. Everyone was happy and no one called any one any names. It was pleasant, adult experience.

I just realized that I don't even have an "armchair" so why does BS keep calling me an "armchair designer"? (OK, I have two but I almost never sit in them.) He does make things up. He likes to fib. For the record, I design sitting on my FENDER guitar seat and it's not very comfortable. I sort of perch on it. But when I relax I sit in a rocking chair, have for years. So to be accurate I am a "rocking chair designer" or a "Fender seat designer".


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
I don't mind it at all when they fly over. I like it. When the Dreamliner had its first flight it circled around, went out of site behind my hill and then poked out really low right above me. That was a thrill. I hear the Navy jets from Oak Harbor once and a while but we are not in their flight pattern, damnit.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Sure, prostitution to the corporate world pays, $150 an hour I am told,


Where can I get one of those gigs? I spent 36 years in the corporate world and never got anywhere near triple digit hourly rates.

In fact I was probably usually closer to 150 Hrs a dollar.


----------



## SloopJonB

djodenda said:


> Makes sense..
> 
> My brother just returned from a cruise on his 25' Ranger Tug to Alaska from Everett.
> 
> He said that he saw a lot more logs in the water in the BC waters than in U.S. waters.
> 
> Different regulations, I guess


Just a lot more coastal logging in B.C. I think. From what I've seen in Washington, I'd say our regs are a lot more restrictive. Are logs towed in booms in Washington? I can't recall ever seeing one there?


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Ever been to Christmas Island? After the nuclear tests of the 50s, they left the lagoon full of all kinds of garbage , jeeps, bulldozers, scrap metal , etc. etc. Its a real junk pile. So are the beaches in the lagoon.


Nukes on Christmas island? When exactly was that? AFAIK all the SoPac nuke tests were a couple of thousand miles east of there.


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> For anyone wanting feedback on my designs , a client ( Andy Deering) had his letter published in the June issue of Latitude 38.
> Latitude 38 Letters - June 2013
> 
> He gives some interesting conclusions after 60,000 miles cruising the Pacific , from the Southern Ocean to the Aleutians. I think with that kind of experience, he knows a lot more about my boats that any armchair expert with near zero cruising experience, siting in a chair , juggling numbers. I think he nails the source of the problem.


Yeah sure Brent, 'Cause no cruiser has every written a favourable word on a Bob Perry cruising boat.


----------



## jak3b

Brent Swain said:


> A handy trick for entering a harbour at night, is to find a light beam shining on the water, from the direction you want to go. Follow the light beam and if there were anything between you and it ,it would show up clearly.


Ya forget about your chart or compass jus follow the twinkling lights.No wonder your people are always on ledges, reefs, beaches,bulldozers,barges.I am sure some one will run into a light house soon, ah but if shes steel she'll survive without a blemish.


----------



## jak3b

SloopJonB said:


> Nukes on Christmas island? When exactly was that? AFAIK all the SoPac nuke tests were a couple of thousand miles east of there.


Oh dont let a few factoids get in the way.


----------



## bobperry

Jak:
Don't confuse BS with facts. He doesn't.
He fibs. He makes things up like a little kid if he thinks it buys him time.

Once again, when the discussion gets real BS is long gone but he'll return with some non sequitur argument based on name calling.

Jon:
"$150 an hour "
You should have been a yacht designer. We are positively rolling in money.
My wife thought she was marrying someone with a job.
Boy did she have something to learn.

But, when Spike was about 7 years old, he said to me, "When I grow up I want a job like yours." I said, "Oh, you want to be a yacht designer?" He said, "No, I want a job I like."

Spike loved his job as a metal fabricator. He would have loved working with Brent. He could have taught BS a thing or two about design. But he would have had a very hard time with Brent's BS. Spike was very unjudgmental. Spike was a master draftsman. I taught him that skill.


----------



## jak3b

Yup,Brents rant is getting old.He sounds more and more like a life insurance salesman who never made it home one night and has been riding the subways for years talking about doom and gloom and if they would just listen to him all would be well.When I was a young kid I thought that going away on a small boat like Slocum and Moitessier would be the escape I needed from the things I couldnt deal with as a 12 year old with a learning disabilty.As time went on I realised that basicly I like people,I like good company,friends,lovers,even work,.....well sort of, because of the interaction with others.I realised we are all on the same boat anyway and the destination is the same for everyone.In my travels I met a few 'expats' in various places I was at who had the same negativity and dim view.They had the inside scoop but it was always riddeled with warnings and complaints about 'the locals',"watch out they'll rip you off, dont stay at that place someone got killed there in 1992" blah blah.A long time single hander I met was similer. I fed him,lent him some tools,helped him out on his wreck and he sailed off with my stuff,Thanks.The lesson I learned was this person was a miserable S.O.B. What goes around comes around.


----------



## jak3b

SloopJonB said:


> Nukes on Christmas island? When exactly was that? AFAIK all the SoPac nuke tests were a couple of thousand miles east of there.


And dont forget the underground bases where the black ops are working with aliens.There craft take off from the ocean so you better have a steel boat in case a space ship runs into you.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I am not about to screw anyone out of their cruising dreams ,by spreading disinformation designed to screw them out of their dreams...


Really? There sure seems to be a fair amount of rusty, blocked-up evidence to the contrary out there.

I guess those are just the drunk/junkie clients you mentioned?


----------



## bobperry

Jak:
I always avoided the ex-pats hang-outs in my travels. They are generally not happy places. The locals this, the locals that. While they live off the locals. The "yacht club" in American Samoa was just such a place. But I have to admit that from time to time you do want the company of other Americans. For bad or worse. It's nice to speak English. It's just not what they say.

Church was fun.


----------



## bobperry

Whoa,,,,Smackers is on a roll!


----------



## jak3b

bobperry said:


> Jak:
> I always avoided the ex-pats hang-outs in my travels. They are generally not happy places. The locals this, the locals that. While they live off the locals. The "yacht club" in American Samoa was just such a place. But I have to admit that from time to time you do want the company of other Americans. For bad or worse. It's nice to speak English. It's just not what they say.
> 
> Church was fun.


Yup, exactly.I can speak Thai and Lao fairly well but still about every 4 or 5 days my brain just needs a rest and refuses to work.Someone will say something simple and I just blank out and look befuddled.At those time it was good to speak English


----------



## bobperry

Jak:
I know exactly what yoy are saying.
I have worked hard to learn Mandarin and I can cope but there are times I need to speak English even when the people I have to speak it with are not my idea of noble people.

But they probably look at me as "not noble". So there.

I think we would get along just fine.
Sa wah dee ka ( sp)


----------



## jak3b

Ya I hear that Bob.Just one thing say Sawadee Kap. Sawadee Ka is what a woman would say.Kap for males Ka for female.;-).Learning the language definately opens alot of doors.Even if you learn the most basic phrases people really appreciate it.And its fun.


----------



## bobperry

Oh yeah, I knew that.

It's a bit like:
"An you kay so oh" when you are the one leaving and "An yo ka say oh" when you are the one being left. In Korean.

I'll get it straight. Evenetually. You are right. People repsect the effort and everyone becomes a teacher.


----------



## jak3b

Yup, The best experiences in my life.I learned by winging it and then people would help me with the correct way.I made lots of life long friends that way.


----------



## jak3b

Brent Swain said:


> You are still left with the inevitable deck leaks, which require you to re-bed things down from time to time. Welded down stainless never leaks.
> Wooden boats are impossible to insulate adequately , without inviting dry rot. They also are far more flammable, and thru hulls in them are far less trouble free, than welded in stainless pipe nipples. It doesn't let you use a part of your hull as a keel cooler, leaving you with salt water intake, salt water pump and heat exchanger problems.
> I once hit a sunken bulldozer at hull speed, in Christmas Island lagoon . Zero damage .


Wow I better save my Uncle then.He lives on a grand banks 36 in Portalnd ME year round,Poor guy must be freezing his nadz off!.And Ill have to go tell my Salmon fisherman friend that he is crazy to have been fishing for 35+ years in a WOOD boat built in 1946 and that its impossible to use his keel cooling system on his wood boat.Poor fool doasnt know what hes doing!.


----------



## smackdaddy

Here's another BrentBoat that took a bit longer than a couple of months to go from steel sheet to sail:

Good Old Boat - Reader Photos



> BRENT SWAIN 36
> Brent Swain 36
> My boat is a 36-foot steel Brent Swain design built by Evan Shaler in Nanaimo, BC. It was discovered in a storage yard and at the time *was 18 years old and had never been in the water*. The original professional builder was located and asked to complete the welding and stainless detailing. A temporary interior was installed out of 2 x 4 lumber and CDX plywood and, after rigging by YachtTech Spars and sails by Port Townsend sails were installed, we sailed the boat back home to Alaska. The mast was unstepped and the boat trailered home to my house where *I spent 2 years completing the interior*. Her name is Sherpa and she was finally launched for real in heavy rain the day after Memorial Day, 2012. This picture was taken in Thumb Cove this last fall. . -- Joseph Earsley


18 YEARS as a shattered dream in a storage yard??? Then 2 YEARS just to finish out the interior??? THAT'S 20 YEARS!!!

Are these some of the ones you say were hitting the sauce Brent?

Oh well, one man's nightmare is another man's dream I guess. It did turn out pretty nicely.


----------



## GBurton

Sorry to actually post something on topic, but this is an interesting obsrvation on steel hulls taken from here: 4. Aground Once Again



> Tough Boat Story
> 
> My all-time favorite boat grounding story was one I witnessed in Suva, Fiji, during my around-the-world sail. One night a very tired French sailor approached the Suva harbor breakwater in the wee hours. Apparently fatigue got the best of him and he fell asleep before making it into the harbor. Because he was asleep, his boat was free to sail wherever it pleased, so it crashed into the breakwater's rocks.
> 
> During the night the boat got firmly stuck on the rocks, pounded by the open ocean swells breaking against the rocks and the boat. But this wasn't an ordinary boat - it had a steel hull. The boat withstood the pounding surf until daylight and the next high tide, at which point the boat could be floated off the rocks.
> 
> The sailor brought his boat into the harbor, dropped anchor, grabbed a ball peen hammer, went down into the bilge, and pounded out the dents. An hour's work, boat repaired. Steel hull. They have to be painted constantly to avoid rust, but they're very strong.


----------



## outbound

Think no one can reasonably argue the benefits of steel as regards impact resistance. Issue for me is after spending 35+ years putting money aside to be able to "live the dream" is that the kind of boat I want to live on. I'm in the fairly common group who due to responsibilities to career/family/ others could not feel good about myself until I knew others dependent on me were settled. Hearing about Bob clients I think I don't have their resources. I'm I envious? No, I delight in seeing what works of art they are able tohelp create. After being knocked around I don't think I could deal with this discomforts BrentBoats imply and I know my wife would not. We like running the Webasto at night and the air during the day. We like being able to handle the boat effortlessly in any weather. The power winches are a dream as are the reefing systems. I enjoy a long hot shower coming off watch. I enjoy gourmet food self cooked and eating it while listening to Pachelbel. None of us are forced to live on a boat. To be able to do it with grace and beauty is a joy. There is a French couple in my marina. They have three children. One was borne on the boat. They are a delight. They live a minimalist lifestyle. They are fun to be with and I think they enjoy our company as well. We treat each others as equals although they clearly are much more experienced sailors whereas we have the various initials after our name some mistake for wisdom. If Brent realized by being less judgmental his life would improve and his wisdom would be shared to a greater extent this forum would be more helpful to us all.
Remain interested in seeing any performance data Brent make wish to share e.g. polars, basic statistics etc.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Think no one can reasonably argue the benefits of steel as regards impact resistance. Issue for me is after spending 35+ years putting money aside to be able to "live the dream" is that the kind of boat I want to live on. I'm in the fairly common group who due to responsibilities to career/family/ others could not feel good about myself until I knew others dependent on me were settled. Hearing about Bob clients I think I don't have their resources. I'm I envious? No, I delight in seeing what works of art they are able tohelp create. After being knocked around I don't think I could deal with this discomforts BrentBoats imply and I know my wife would not. We like running the Webasto at night and the air during the day. We like being able to handle the boat effortlessly in any weather. The power winches are a dream as are the reefing systems. I enjoy a long hot shower coming off watch. I enjoy gourmet food self cooked and eating it while listening to Pachelbel. None of us are forced to live on a boat. To be able to do it with grace and beauty is a joy. There is a French couple in my marina. They have three children. One was borne on the boat. They are a delight. They live a minimalist lifestyle. They are fun to be with and I think they enjoy our company as well. We treat each others as equals although they clearly are much more experienced sailors whereas we have the various initials after our name some mistake for wisdom. If Brent realized by being less judgmental his life would improve and his wisdom would be shared to a greater extent this forum would be more helpful to us all.
> Remain interested in seeing any performance data Brent make wish to share e.g. polars, basic statistics etc.


My life is absolutely wonderful, as good as it can get.. I only offer what decades of cruising, building steel cruising boats, and living aboard full time has taught me. If some one would rather get their advice from someone with no liveaboard, boatbuilding or long term cruising experience ,who advocates relying on "Cosmic Karma" , rather than personal building and cruising experience, then let them go ahead. I'd rather not deal with that kind of thinking.
One thing my clients have consistently told me is that their well insulated ,leak proof steel boat is the most comfortable dwelling they have ever lived in.

The topic "pros and cons of steel sailboats" cant be discussed well, without making comparisons with the alternative to steel, which is mainly plastic. This includes listing all the advantages of steel over plastic . Cant do that, without sounding negative on plastic.


----------



## bljones




----------



## Brent Swain

A good demolition derby between steel and plastic happened in 82, when Bernard Moitessier's steel " Joshua" went aground in Cabo San Lucas. A larger fibreglass boat landed on top of her and disintegrated quickly . The Joshua is still sailing after minor repairs.
In 1975, 35 boats, mostly fibreglass, were wrecked in the Tuamotus. Most disintegrated in an hour or two. Trismus, a sister ship to Joshua, was abandoned after she filled with water thru a vent. Ten years later, the locals refloated her, and began using her for shipping coconuts around the lagoon. The skipper of Trismus, Patrick , was later lost without trace, while doing a transatlantic race in a plastic boat.


----------



## tommays

I am going to have to tell MS tommays are boat is both ugly and much to dangerous to keep using 

She will most likely be upset that after 43 years it may fall apart at any second while we are sailing


----------



## bobperry

Hang on Tom and wear that PFD. And for the record your boat is a fine looking boat. Cal 29? One of my all time favorite boats.

Brent:
you sound like a tired old broken record. Whinging and whining with nothing new to bring to the table. Zero. I'll bring some new stuff soon when my PSC 62' ketch is a bit further along and my timber 28' "ED" design is "framed up" for planking.

"If some one would rather get their advice from someone with no liveaboard, boatbuilding or long term cruising experience ,who advocates relying on "Cosmic Karma" , rather than personal building and cruising experience, then let them go ahead. I'd rather not deal with that kind of thinking."

What do you mean "if" Brent? "IF"? Holy cow, look at the numbers. It's obvious that a lot of sailors do prefer my designs. You can count can't you? I realize you have problems with numbers. But stay on the defensive. We like you there. I'll stay working on my designs and on the offensive. I can be offensive. You keep fabricating facts and I'll be sure to stay offensive.

How about some photos of your fair hulls? Remember, your call, they have to be more fair than mine. I have a few photos I can post too. I have lots. Come on respond to one challenge with some reality for a change.

I'll go out and flog the water with my brand new Coho lure.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> A good demolition derby between steel and plastic happened in 82, when Bernard Moitessier's steel " Joshua" went aground in Cabo San Lucas. A larger fibreglass boat landed on top of her and disintegrated quickly . The Joshua is still sailing after minor repairs.
> In 1975, 35 boats, mostly fibreglass, were wrecked in the Tuamotus. Most disintegrated in an hour or two. Trismus, a sister ship to Joshua, was abandoned after she filled with water thru a vent. Ten years later, the locals refloated her, and began using her for shipping coconuts around the lagoon. The skipper of Trismus, Patrick , was later lost without trace, while doing a transatlantic race in a plastic boat.


Your numbers might be compelling if it weren't for the fact that for every one steel boat, there are 100K or more fiberglass boats plying the waters of the world...the vast majority never being smashed to bits at all.

You should stop swimming. It's possible to get that brain eating amoeba in your nose. Or ice cream, what about salmonella? You're living dangerously my friend.


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## jak3b

The indestructability of Steel!. Note in this video the top secret articulating hull in action.
F/V Chevelle hard aground on Newport?s North Jetty ? breaking up in heavy swells » News Lincoln County


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## JomsViking

Brent,

You need to stick to the truth: Joshua was a basically an empty Shell full of sand and Water after that, and Bernard gave the remains to a Swiss guy WHO needed several years to get her back on the Water Again.

At the same time several 'plastic' and wooden boats survived, but a lot also got beaten to pulp.

Your call.



Brent Swain said:


> A good demolition derby between steel and plastic happened in 82, when Bernard Moitessier's steel " Joshua" went aground in Cabo San Lucas. A larger fibreglass boat landed on top of her and disintegrated quickly . The Joshua is still sailing after minor repairs.
> In 1975, 35 boats, mostly fibreglass, were wrecked in the Tuamotus. Most disintegrated in an hour or two. Trismus, a sister ship to Joshua, was abandoned after she filled with water thru a vent. Ten years later, the locals refloated her, and began using her for shipping coconuts around the lagoon. The skipper of Trismus, Patrick , was later lost without trace, while doing a transatlantic race in a plastic boat.


----------



## smackdaddy

JomsViking said:


> Brent,
> 
> You need to stick to the truth...


_Stick_ to?



JomsViking said:


> Bernard gave the remains to a Swiss guy WHO needed several years to get her back on the Water Again...


One thing we've learned from Brent is that, in the mysterious and wonderful world of Swaintology, "several years of work" equates to "minor repairs". It's all about adjusting your perspective.


----------



## JomsViking

Typo, should have read "once, just once, try the truth"

Thanks for noticing


smackdaddy said:


> _Stick_ to?


----------



## bobperry

"while doing a transatlantic race in a plastic boat."
Another example of Brent's addiction to name calling. Apparently if an objective answer and facts are not available BS likes to fall back on name calling.


----------



## smackdaddy

Hey Brent, what's the story on this?



Brent Swain said:


> By the time I lost my first boat in Fiji...


----------



## smackdaddy

Since it's Friday and I'm just jackin' around office while my employees work, I'm documenting many of Brent's claims for a crowd-sourced True/False exercise. Then I came across this:



Brent Swain said:


> Yes, I guess I am a comedian, in the Bill Maher tradition. What else do comedian Bill Maher and comedian Brent Swain have in common?
> Both have double the intelligence of their critics. Both have made a good living pointing out the foolishness of their critics. Both have been provided a good living by the generous foolishness of their critics, who are too smugly dense to realize that the joke is them. Both make a good living questioning religion , one christianity the other, blind faith in unquestioning "consumerism" the most prevalent religion in our society.


Now it all makes sense! Brent wants to be the Bill Maher of sailing! He wants his own cable show - "Swain's World".

The only hitch in the plan is that Bill is funny on purpose.


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## kimbottles

No way in hell does BS have double the intelligence of Bob Perry.


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## smackdaddy

How about sailing a BrentBoat through a lightning-filled squall? Any takers?


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## jak3b

The lightening wouldnt dare to test the mettle of origami construction.If it did strike the lighting would blast off in all directions setting fire to silly wooden craft and distintegrating plastic tubs for miles around.Or something like that.


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## bljones

bobperry said:


> "while doing a transatlantic race in a plastic boat."
> Another example of Brent's addiction to name calling. Apparently if an objective answer and facts are not available BS likes to fall back on name calling.


He's not entirely wrong. Fiberglass may be plastic. Whether one views that as pejorative depends entirely upon how one views the user of the word.

I believe it was Francis Herreshoff who referred to fiberglass as "frozen snot." now that right there is, indeed, unabashed name calling.

Name calling is subjective- addressing someone as "Maestro" is also name calling... but no one objects. Address someone as Idiot, and it's a problem, apparently.


----------



## bobperry

BLJ:
I think that some thought is required here. And of course how the word is used is critical.

"Maestro" is more a title than it is "name calling".

If I call Dr. Jones "Doctor Jones" I do not consider that name calling. That is an odd way to look at it.


----------



## outbound

Metal is safer in lightning storms. Electricity will travel only on the outside of the hull. Personally would rather be in Fe/Al in that setting. Looking into lightning ground plate from Ward's Marine Electric given I'm in grp.

Personally prefer to be called by my first name outside professional setting. When called Mr. think they're talking about my father. He passed some years ago so I get confused.


----------



## bobperry

Being a devout classical music fan I like being called "Maestro". It reminds me of all the great musical masters who worked hard to achieve greatness. I admire that. In my case it's usually said, with tongue formly in cheek and that's fine with me. I still like it. It's a compliment and if you can'r discern the difference between that and name calling I can't help you.

My friends call me Bob and Robert. Some of my old friends call me "Hoidard" because on one of my driver's licenses years ago that's how my middle name, Howard, was spelled.
Some of my friends call me Caesar because I am very good at making a Caesar salad from scratch. I don't consider any of these terms of affection "name calling".


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## jak3b

How about Maestro Hoidard Caesar?


----------



## smackdaddy

outbound said:


> Metal is safer in lightning storms. Electricity will travel only on the outside of the hull. Personally would rather be in Fe/Al in that setting. Looking into lightning ground plate from Ward's Marine Electric given I'm in grp.
> 
> Personally prefer to be called by my first name outside professional setting. When called Mr. think they're talking about my father. He passed some years ago so I get confused.


The Faraday Cage phenomenon? Makes sense. But I assume that if any storm gets anywhere close that has any possibility of lightning, you wouldn't want to be on-deck sailing the boat?

That sounds pretty fragile.


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## bobperry

I knew Faraday Cage and you're no Faraday Cage.

Great name for a high tech rock band.


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## Don L

what page does this smack down start as reading it backwards is confusing, but reading 30+ pages doesn't agree with my lifespan


----------



## smackdaddy

Don0190 said:


> what page does this smack down start as reading it backwards is confusing, but reading 30+ pages doesn't agree with my lifespan


Sorry bro. Gotta do your homework. However, hold tight for a bit. I'm creating an awesome index of The Best of BS.


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## chall03

Brent's whole deal, his 'design philosophy' is that his steel boats are super strong when you hit a reef. That's it.

Thereby if you spend your time on your boat doing anything other than hitting reef's his boats are essentially unsuitable.

I would prefer a sailboat that sails, and to then try very hard to not hit reefs, than a reef-proof boat that doesn't sail.

Smack I believe there is a bit of a story to Brent's first Pacific crossing and hitting that reef, I recall snipets. I do give Brent credit for getting out there so young and living the adventure. That takes balls of steel. I wish he would post more about those adventures on here rather than just spouting Brentboat propaganda.


----------



## bobperry

"Thereby if you spend your time on your boat doing anything other than hitting reef's his boats are essentially unsuitable."

I'll challenge that just for the fun of it.

Brent's boats are totally suitable if someone wants the security or imagined security of having a steel boat around them. As I said when I first got into this food fight and most others posting on this agree, steel is the "toughest" material. But it's also heavy and has some very serious cosmetic challenges. rent has yet to show us one of his boats that would qualify as a "yacht" by most standards. They are "boats" and for Brent's customers that's all they want. Good enough. I have no problem with that. I design yachts. I have no problem with that either.

Here's my buddy Guy's boat that I designed. It's beautiful and it's very fast. He lives in BC so I suspect it will go flying by Brent one of these days. Guy loves it.


----------



## JomsViking

Lucky Guy 


bobperry said:


> "Thereby if you spend your time on your boat doing anything other than hitting reef's his boats are essentially unsuitable."
> 
> I'll challenge that just for the fun of it.
> 
> Brent's boats are totally suitable if someone wants the security or imagined security of having a steel boat around them. As I said when I first got into this food fight and most others posting on this agree, steel is the "toughest" material. But it's also heavy and has some very serious cosmetic challenges. rent has yet to show us one of his boats that would qualify as a "yacht" by most standards. They are "boats" and for Brent's customers that's all they want. Good enough. I have no problem with that. I design yachts. I have no problem with that either.
> 
> Here's my buddy Guy's boat that I designed. It's beautiful and it's very fast. He lives in BC so I suspect it will go flying by Brent one of these days. Guy loves it.


----------



## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> The only hitch in the plan is that Bill is funny.


Fixed it.


----------



## SloopJonB

bljones said:


> He's not entirely wrong. Fiberglass may be plastic. Whether one views that as pejorative depends entirely upon how one views the user of the word.
> 
> I believe it was Francis Herreshoff who referred to fiberglass as "frozen snot." now that right there is, indeed, unabashed name calling.
> 
> Name calling is subjective- addressing someone as "Maestro" is also name calling... but no one objects. Address someone as Idiot, and it's a problem, apparently.


I think it is generally understood that the expression "name calling" is exclusive to insults, not compliments or titles - or proper nouns for that matter.


----------



## bobperry

Thanks Jon. Funny story but I met Guy when he was looking for a boat He hired me as a consultant while he looked. He had a partner and they were after a mid 40', comfy, cc Taswell, Hylas type of boat. We looked at several. Then the owner of this boat bought one of my bigger, 70', custom boats (must like Perry designs) and put his Saga 48 up for sale. Guy went and looked at it and fell in love, The partner was far from convinced and wanted a cc boat for sure. So Guy dumped the partner and bought it himself.


----------



## smackdaddy

chall03 said:


> BSmack I believe there is a bit of a story to Brent's first Pacific crossing and hitting that reef, I recall snipets. I do give Brent credit for getting out there so young and living the adventure. That takes balls of steel. I wish he would post more about those adventures on here rather than just spouting Brentboat propaganda.


+1 to that. But remember, his boats are steel, his balls are plastic.


----------



## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> I think it is generally understood that the expression "name calling" is exclusive to insults, not compliments or titles - or proper nouns for that matter.


Dick.


----------



## bobperry

Ha!


----------



## chall03

bobperry said:


> "Thereby if you spend your time on your boat doing anything other than hitting reef's his boats are essentially unsuitable."
> 
> I'll challenge that just for the fun of it.
> 
> Brent's boats are totally suitable if someone wants the security or imagined security of having a steel boat around them.


If that was my criteria I would then be personally sailing something like a Van de Stadt Samoa, or building a Radford design.

I said unsuitable if you want to do *anything but * hit a reef. Probably very suitable for reef hitting, but I want to sail.


----------



## bobperry

I should do Brents marketing; REEF BUSTERS


----------



## bljones

bobperry said:


> If I call Dr. Jones "Doctor Jones" I do not consider that name calling.


That is absolutely correct. It is an earned, official, got- the- paper title.
Call ME Dr. Jones, OTOH and it is name calling, as I am not a physician, a dentist or a man of letters. It might be flattering, it might be sarcastic, but it is calling someone a name.. 
As I have said before, I am all good with namecalling. Recognizing genius has no value if one pointedly ignores idiocy.

The downside of playing the "oooh, namecalling!" penalty card, is that, sooner or later, one is going to slip and do that of which they have accused others.

Sorry for dragging this particular thread off topic. Carry on with the necrotic equine abuse.


----------



## bobperry

Yes mother.


----------



## bljones

Namecalling!!


----------



## bobperry

I meant "mother" as a term of endearment.


----------



## bljones

Hey, it is what it is, man,  As I said before, I'm good with it. I kind of like to know , for example, when I am being an idiot and who thinks so, just as I, less often, happily discover I am thought a genius by my peers.


----------



## smackdaddy

bljones said:


> Hey, it is what it is, man,  As I said before, I'm good with it. I kind of like to know , for example, when I am being an idiot and who thinks so, just as I, less often, happily discover I am thought a genius by my peers.


I have no idea what you just said.


----------



## bljones

I know- proper punctuation often befuddles Texans.


----------



## bobperry

Hmmmm:
BLJ:
That was a really weird rant and I'm just going to chalk it up to Friday night and I hope you are not driving.

But if you are, swing by here. I'm not doing anything.


----------



## smackdaddy

bljones said:


> I know- proper punctuation often befuddles Texans.


Yeah, that must be it.


----------



## smackdaddy

*BS Yachts Marketing Program*

Okay - the moment you've been waiting for. If one wants to discuss the con(s) of steel sailboats, one need look no further than this post.

What follows is the BS Yachts Marketing Program. It is the pitch from the Head of BS Yachts' Sales Department: BS himself.

Feel free to substantiate, defend, dissect, question, mock, or chortle at any of the following claims about BrentBoats by Brent himself. This is the condensed version of Swaintology.

If you are his target market...that is someone who doesn't know a whole lot about boats or steelwork, doesn't have a huge budget (i.e. - more than $50K cash), and just wants to go cruising - this is for you. Feel free to click the blue arrows -







- by Brent's name to see his post in context and see the responses to it.

The bottom line is this...you, the "99%-er cruising wannabe" (Brent's words), have three choices:

1. Build your BrentBoat THEN go cruising with what you have left. 
2. Buy a relatively expensive (compared to similar fiberglass boats) used BrentBoat that someone is trying to unload and go cruising immediately. 
3. Buy a well-equipped, cruise-ready fiberglass boat for far less and go cruising immediately with more money in your pocket _(but, according to Brent, living with the daily panic of being struck down by aggressive Fukushima Debris, logs, reefs or rocks - or the annoyance of having to pay attention to where you're going)_.

Brent often conflates the idea of "design" with the idea of "building" (hence, the numbers vs. experience angle) - so watch out for that. BUT, if you DO want to build your own BrentBoat, here's what you can expect (from Brent's own customers):

1. You'll likely spend a good deal more than $35K for a fully equipped BrentBoat. This is after you've already spent several hundred more for his plans, books and DVDs. (Oh and that's just for the boat - you'll need to factor in the costs of the build area, the expensive tools you'll need, the electronics you'll want to add, the utilities, etc.). So, let's up that figure to somewhere a good bit beyond $50K (the cruising budget we mentioned above).
2. You'll likely spend 3 years or more building this boat...before you can ever sail a single mile.
3. When Brent talks about how "perfect" his boat is after 30 years (i.e. - low maintenance requirements, dirt cheap equipment, etc.)...here's what he means by "perfect":



















Notice the chipped paint, the rust, etc. And keep this in mind when you read through his maintenance claims below.

Now, an important sidenote as you review the BS Marketing Claims - this "Bob" character with whom Brent goes 'round is the rather legendary yacht designer, Robert Perry. Word is he's been kind of successful over the years and is somewhat respected by most sane people. Here's a hardcover book that outlines his 30+ year career:

Yacht Design According to Perry: My Boats and What Shaped Them: Robert Perry: 9780071465571: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51VN1eW-PXL


> A great designer offers you a virtuoso tour through the world of sailboats
> 
> Bob Perry initiated the trend toward fast voyaging sailboats with his world-famous Valiant 40, which has been in production longer than any other cruising sailboat in history. But Perry is not only a leading yacht designer--he is also an accomplished wordsmith whose blunt, insightful, irreverent, and always entertaining boat reviews have captivated readers of Sailing magazine for 24 years. This book is vintage Perry, a no-holds-barred tour of the world of yacht design through the benchmark boats of his 30-year career.


So, without further adieu...I give you The BS Yachts Marketing Programme, designed to convince you, good 99%er-Cruiser-Wannabe, to buy or build a BrentBoat. Make up your own mind about integrity, veracity, and credibility. Where will you put your money?



Brent Swain said:


> Wide shallow sterned boats with super lean bows are very badly balanced hulls, hard to control downwind in a rough sea. They have no directional stability.


What about Vendee and VOR boats that have done a pretty good job of doing just this around the entire earth?



Brent Swain said:


> Catalina 27 is a very poor choice, a grossly unbalanced rudder which you can't leave for a second without her broaching off course. Very poorly built. There are far better choices, for cheap.


I had one of these C27s. We always had too much sail up - and she did indeed give us a heavy tiller. But that was when we had too much sail up.



Brent Swain said:


> Saw one with 50 fragile plastic thru hulls, mostly below the waterline, which could be easily broken with a slight kick, or a shifting of gear. A very fragile, minimumly built, "style over substance", type of boat.


If I recall he's talking about a large Beneteau here. Slight kick or shifting gear? Seems there would be a lot more sinkings than we've heard of if this were case.



Brent Swain said:


> Things simply dont break in a small steel boat, and they dont leak.


This indeed is a miracle for any boat anywhere in the world. Impressive.



Brent Swain said:


> Amazing how long it took the 'Experts" , with all their qualifications and decades of experience, to figure out what I did, with almost zero sailing experience. That shows the power of dogma.


Keep reading.



Brent Swain said:


> The Malo has negative stability either side of 180 dergees . Roll either side of 180 and you are in negative stability country. Many of the traditional boats Bob mentioned have positive stability to over 170 degees.





Brent Swain said:


> 165 to 183 degrees sounds about par for those older , deep, narrow boats.


You really should click the blue arrow by his name above and follow this argument he's having with Bob. It's quite entertaining. In a sailboat, if you roll past 180 degrees aren't you coming back up?

Then this...

*


Brent Swain said:



As any accountant will tell you, start doing the math, and get one factor wrong, and everything from that point on is wrong.

Click to expand...

*In light of all the numbers vs. experience arguments, and the above roll ratios, this is one of my all time favorites.

To Bob:


Brent Swain said:


> Many years ago you told a friend of mine that asymetrical waterlines give better directional stability. The boat you designed for him ,based on that assumption, had none. He was very disappointed with it. He went back to building Spencers, which he had much experience with, boats with much finer sterns, and resulting good directional stability.


False.



Brent Swain said:


> I think the real "Comedian" is the super dense and gullible guy who tells you that commercially made "style over substance" type blocks at $30 each are your only option, or that such flimsy contraptions are actually stronger than 3/16th aluminium ones with solid sheaves, and 3/8th inch solid stainless pins. Or maybe he is the guy tryying to sell commercially made $30 flimsy blocks and can't compete with practicality, so doesnt want anyone to know of affordable alternatives.
> 
> My hand craked sewing machine has paid for itself many times over, one of the handiest machines one can have aboard. It lets you reinforce things well before they tear, adding many years to a sail. I wouldn't be without it.


Pay attention to these gear numbers and claims as it plays out below.



Brent Swain said:


> 1/8th inch plate would work for a boat that size, as would 1/4 inch pins. For a boat that size, 12 guage or even 14 guage would work.The difference between that and the weight of the coins in your pocket would be negligible. You could save far more weight by skipping breakfast and sailing bare assed.
> Yes, there is a reason people use fancy pulleys. Promotion, advertising , glossy brochures, and hype.
> A rich freind sailed from BC to New Zealand and back. He had expensive, comercially made blocks, with aluminium cheeks, with stainless straps over them . The corrosion betwen the two froze the expensive , "comercially made "blocks up solid in less than a year . All aluminium blocks ( the $2 kind ) are open, and any corrosion falls out.
> Without the stainless straps to react with, there is little corrosion. Mine are 29 years old, and after 6 Pacific Crossings, and 11 months a year cruising, are as good and functional as the day I made them( for under $2 each).
> In racing circles "Overbuilt" means something which doesnt break regularly, reducing profits for those who make and promote them.


As you can see in this thread, I've offered to pay Brent $11+shipping for one of his $2 blocks so I can test it against a Garhauer (the test being exactly like he lays out below). He hasn't come through. But i'll keep trying.



Brent Swain said:


> My 1/4 inch galv wire halyard, which I put on in Tonga in 2003 is due for replacement after ten years of mostly full time cruising. I dont think I would have got that out of any other material





Brent Swain said:


> Beginers need oto be cautious about not being conned ninto buying a lot of useless stuff they dont need, and may better of without. Keep it simple. go sailing simply , then slowy decide, based on your ever increasing experince, what you really need.


I totally agree with this statement - which is why I don't think steel boats are the way to go for someone who wants to "go sailing simply". Just my opinion.



Brent Swain said:


> Oops my screwup. Didnt read the second number carefully.
> A 12 meter hull has positive stability to within a couple of degrees of 180, if you put a proper deck and cockpit on her.


Brent acknowledging his skewed math on the 183 debate after Bob kindly points out the flaws.



Brent Swain said:


> This hatch can be made out of scrap aluminium for under $25 and is a far better hatch than commercialy made ones costing hundreds of dollars





Brent Swain said:


> When numbers defy logic , it is probably the numbers which are wrong.


See above.



Brent Swain said:


> Beneteuas and Catalinas are flimsy crap. Older designs are far better put together, and more seaworthy.


This was his post in a thread by someone who was proudly showing off their recently purchased Beneteau. Classy.



Brent Swain said:


> They weigh about the same as framed boats but the true saving is in time and thus money, faireness greatly enhanced , zero filler needed. I find that if it looks dainty fragile and flimsy, it probably is. I refuse to design a boat dainty fragile and flimsy, the stakes are too high on ocean cruisers. Full time cruisers get the same rough treatment as workboats , and should thus be built more to workboat, funtional priorities. Experienced ocean cruisers are a lot more impressed by workboat priorities, than the dainty, flimsy, fragile "Yacht" look.





Brent Swain said:


> A friend had Bob design him the Reliance 37 based on his asymetric waterlines. He was very disappointed by the total lack of directional stability, and went back to the more balanced Spencer designs.
> A freind racing on a Beneteau said he couldn't leave the helm for a second withour the boat broaching, even in moderate conditions. Mine gives me enough time to go to the rail and take a leak, then walk back ,before it wanders noticably off course.


Bob's familiar with this boat and knows the owner who attended his world-renown Rendezvous. The guy seemed to like his boat. Brent can offer no evidence to the contrary, other than his word.



Brent Swain said:


> Now, when I get a new mainsail, the first thing I do is remove the roach and battens, which are responsible for over 80% of sail repairs, which is why sailmakers come up with so many flimsy excuses for roaches and battens. It is a source of much income in the repair buisiness for them. Battens drastrically reduce the life expectancy of a cruising sail, and a good cruising boat should be designed to balance well without a roach on the main. Roaches and battens are a racing gimmick which should be left on racing boats. They have no place on a good offshore cruising boat.


Many of the BrentBoats you'll see in photographs have battens. Do his own customers listen to him?



Brent Swain said:


> My only costs, other than fuel, is a gallon of paint every couple of years.


Put this in your maintenance spreadsheet - then look at the other maintenance claims below, coupled with the photos of what to expect with this level of maintenance.



Brent Swain said:


> I dont demand anything, I just warn people of the pitfalls of following trendiness over logic, warnings I wish someone had given me in my youth. Beneteau's production is a testimony to the effect of mass advertising to the gullible masses, and to the gullibility of those masses, not to quality.


Nobody wants to be a gullible mass. But seriously?



Brent Swain said:


> A friend with one of my 36 footers raced on a Beneteau. He said going forward on the decks was like runing an obstackle course, it was small and cluttered. He said if you left the helm for a second, it would instanly go off course. My 36 tracks like she is on rails.


I've been on lots of Beneteaus. His friend is wrong.



Brent Swain said:


> Last time I left Tonga at the same time as a 28 ft aluminiun Bob Perry design. I took 57 days to BC, he took 99 days. You wouldn't do much better in any heavily loaded 31 footer, with all that the owner owns aboard.


Bob has no record of this boat. Brent can provide no evidence. See a trend?



Brent Swain said:


> I saw a Beneteau hauled out, with 38 flimsy plastic thru hulls, which you could easily break out with a light kick, leaving an inch and a half hole in the boat, mostly below the waterline.


Same as the above claim, but now with 12 fewer thru-hulls.



Brent Swain said:


> My boats dont rust out, as long as they follow the directions I give them. If they dont, then that is not my fault.





Brent Swain said:


> Most don't tie to docks, one is enroute from Cape horn to the Aleutians, several are finishing circumnavigations and several are leisurely cruising Mexico and the South Pacific, while others are cruising full time in BC waters, unlike the expensive plastic boats ,which leave their owners so broke that they have to tie the boat to a dock and spend years earning the money to pay for them. Do they sail faster? Not if you include the time peope spend working to pay for them, then pay the moorage, insurance, repairs, sails maintenance etc. while the guy in the more affordable Brentboat is out cruising and making miles. The guy in the so called "fast boat" will never sail enough miles to make up for the time he has wasted at the dock..


Most of the BrentBoats I've come across are for sale.



Brent Swain said:


> One 36, cruising in company with a 35 ft Beneteau, leaving port at the same time, was always arriving at his destination way ahead of the Benny, despite being heavily loaded.





Brent Swain said:


> I'm not saying mine is the right design for someone who wants to throw away a lot of money for an inferior product. In fact is is definitely the wrong boat for someone who wants to do that.


*This is a very important point. And this is why it's so critical to understand where every penny of your cruising budget will go if you get into a BrentBoat. Yet, this is virtually impossible as there are no real numbers out there - and he won't provide any.*



Brent Swain said:


> The aluminim 28 footer was a boat called Carmela which I was told was a Perry design.It is somewhere in Victoria, I dont know exactly were.
> When one of my 36 footers, the first one I built, pounded for 16 days in 8 to 12 ft surf on the west coast of the Baja for 16 days and was pulled off thru 8 to 12 ft surf,with no significant dammage, I know it is stronger than a fibreglass boat ,which would have broken up in the first few hours. When she T-boned a CBC barge in front of gramas pub in Gibsons at hull speed, with zero damage, I know she is strong.
> When one did a single season passage thru the NW passage, with zero damage, I know it is strong. When one pounded across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf ,then was puled back across the same reef with zero damage, then later collided with a freighter in Gibralter with no significant damage, I know it is strong. Try those tricks in a Benny. See how significant your numbers jugling is.





Brent Swain said:


> I only help the owner get the shell and steel work done. The kind of finish they do from that point on is up to them Those who have gone yachty have always regreted such a waste of time and money, which should have been spent on cruising, and things that matter.


So I suppose what he's saying here is that he'll help you through the easy stuff for the first few days - then you're on your own when it gets hard?



Brent Swain said:


> The paint job on mmy current boat is 29 years old and the only maintenance I've done on it is touch up the chipoed parts, the rest is as good as the day I put it on. I do an houror two a year maintenace on my paint job. Any time tyo se rusting in th e middle iof aflat surface the paint was n ever thich k enouhg or th esateel not clean enough. I initially put 30 gallons of epoxy on my boat. The thicker the better. Too thin a paint job is the main cause of maintenace problems on steel boats, a problem which is easily avoided. To thin a paint job is often motivated by seeking the yachty look. Thick paint works better ,but usually does look rougher. Thats a matter of priorities.


See photos above.



Brent Swain said:


> There is no way you can get a spade rudder as strong without a skeg, as you can with one. A rudder behind a skeg has a much higher stall angle. Even a partial skeg with a balanced bottom is much stronger. Puts the bending load on the rudder blade, rather than on a shaft with very highly loaded bearings.


Disregard all modern rudder design and engineering.



Brent Swain said:


> My boats sometimes go aground because they are not used as marina queens, and do a lot of cruising, sometimes in uncharted waters. Yes, some of their skippers are piss poor navigators. I dont choose my clients on that basis , neither do you.The first owner of a 36 was my demolition test pilot. Any other boat wouldn't have survived as long in his hands. Nothing proves a boat strength like a piss poor navigator- demolition test pilot. How they sail is out of my hands.


At the same time, he says safe navigation is not all that important below. So which is it?



Brent Swain said:


> People choose my designs for the freedom from worry about hitting anything, over going marginally faster, at the price of constant worry about hitting anything. With my first boat, I had to worry about such things .When I switched to steel, and drasticaly reduced such worries my enjoyment of cruising went up drastically, far more than any enjoyment which going marginally faster would have given me.
> That is why my boats cruise so much, and dont cling to marinas, waiting for fair weather sailer days, or seasons.


Hmm.



Brent Swain said:


> In 38 years with steel rudders, I havent had a rust problem. As long as your zinc is on and in good contact, it has to go first, before the rudder can start corroding. Outboard rudders can be easily removed, hung in a tree and painted , with no need or an expensive haulout.





Brent Swain said:


> Readers should know they have an alternative to super expensive boats , which you have to constantly worry about hitting anything with, deck leaks and gear pulling out of the decks, and have the option of a marginally slower boat, which is extremely worry free, on which nothing breaks . The choice is theirs. My clients choose the latter.


I guess you need to decide what's more important to you...cruising or body armor.



Brent Swain said:


> I live on the BC coast, cruising year round, while those with more fragile, trendy, and expensive boats go to work to pay the moorage, and loans needed to own and maintain them. I consider their lives "living in a cave" far more than mine.They are far more likely to be your clients than mine. I love to wake up in a secluded anchorage, turn on the traffic report, and listen to what they are doung to pay for that fragile plastic boat they bought to impress us with . I cut a fart in their honour and go back to sleep for an extra hour or two, thoroughly "impressed."


Thanks for the fart, Brent.



Brent Swain said:


> I have black poly pipe on my shrouds which has been in the sun for 37 years and is as good as the day I put it on.


See photos above to see what "good as the day I put it in" can mean.



Brent Swain said:


> You dont want any kind of battens on a cruising sail. Your jib doesnt need one , neither does your main.





Brent Swain said:


> Having an outboard rudder has enabled me to build my self steering, far more effective than most horendously expensive models; mandatory on boat with inboard rudders, and my inside steering, for around $25.


This is a very, very good price for windvane steering. The question is, can YOU do it?



Brent Swain said:


> Owning a sailboat has been the most sound financial decision I have made in my entire life.
> Expenses of owning my boat?
> Moorage, zero. I stay anchored
> Heating bills, zero. Woodstove eats for free.
> Maintenance, less than $100 a year.
> Diesel , under $200 a year.


We're now at $300/year for total cost of ownership. How does that match up with the other claims?



Brent Swain said:


> Many clients have eliminated a heavy weather helm by eliminating the roach. Kinda completely blows your theory. Theory and reality can be a long way apart.





Brent Swain said:


> I place a high value on aesthetics, as do you, and many people tell me my boats are beautiful, as are yours.


This is to that guy Bob. The one in the book.



Brent Swain said:


> Such yachty absurdities such as a teak deck , flimsy teak hatches and skylights, and flimsy yachtie hardware, look pretty ugly after a bitt of rough use. I have seen such " decorative priority" boats leaving BC , looking immaculate, but by the time they get to New Zealand they look rough as hell, while the more practical, easier to maintain boats with workboat priorities can do the same trip, and still look immaculate at the end of the voyage. Your boats often contain such yachtie absurdities, mine, rarely .I dont recommend them, you dont discourage them.


See photos for the meaning of "immaculate".



Brent Swain said:


> Two doctors I worked for said my $2 sheet blocks are something of which a multi millionaire couldn't buy a better one. My $100 roller furling is far more reliable than commercially made ones costing thousands of dollars, as is my windvane , anchor winch hatches , etc etc. The thinking and expereince which go into a boat do far more to determine how good a boat is, than the amount of money one throws at a boat.


I'm still waiting on the block.



Brent Swain said:


> They have zero weather helm with a roachless main, the way I designed her.
> One sailed from Cortes Island downwind to Comox, with no one at the helm, and no self steering of any kind. Many people, who have only sailed poorly balanced stock boats, were blown away by the directional stability of my boats.
> If they change the sail plan from what I designed, that is their doing , not mine. If all else fails, follow the insructions.


Do you really want a boat with "zero weather helm"? Follow this post for Bob's questions about this.



Brent Swain said:


> Replaced my jib sheets a couple of years ago after 27 yers and 6 Pacific crossings and the rest cruising 11 months a year in BC . Last painted my bottom in Tonga 10 years ago, having a 5,000 mile sail ahead of me back to BC, mostly to windward. That was also my last haulout. It takes me 15 minutes to scrap the bottom of my twin keeler when aground on most low tides. No need for new bottom paint. I use the free zincs others throw away, so new you can still read the writing on them. Just picked up three more today.
> Topside paint ,home hardware "Fishboat" paint costs $28 a gallon. I repaint it every couple of years. I was given 5 gallons of epoxy, but it only costs around $40 a gallon, and a gallon lasts many years doing touchups.
> Welding rods are for new projects, mostly for other people , not maintenance ,except for one or two rods a year for welding zincs on.
> On a well built steel boat, nothing breaks ,leaks or pulls away.


27 years for sheets. Conflicts with his halyard claims. And again, nothing breaks on his boat...a miracle in the boating world.



Brent Swain said:


> Aesthetically pleasing is different for those who buy whatever consumerism is trying to sell them , from those who do their own thinking. I get much satisfaction in helping low income cruisers get cruising in boats they could never afford otherwise, better boats than the rich are sailing around in, boats which drastically reduce the risk to them and their children from colliding with Fukashima debris in the night.


He gets his satisfaction out of helping the low income cruiser. Yet he won't tell you what it will really cost for you to get cruising in one of his boats - even a hypothetical worst-case high-end that you could find ways to back off of? Why?



Brent Swain said:


> My furler is covered by the sail so whats to see. They have fewer moving parts than a set of sail hanks. They dont fail either. My hatch design is far easier to get in any out of than the complex abortion which is the sliding hatch, and it is as waterproof as the lid on a pressure cooker.





Brent Swain said:


> You are right when you say that there is no way you could build any kind of boat for what they are charging for older fibreglass boats. I hear the Greeks are giving them away to avoid the taxes. However, I have several friends who bought fibreglass boats, who are upgrading to my boats, to boats which are built right from the outset, when they find that nothing on the market is what they want. They prefer boats which let them hit the odd rock, log or shipping container in the night, without a care in the world. One T-boned a rock in the Straits of Magellan . Shrug and carry on, no problem. You can read the story by doing a search under Silas Crosby. Many of my clients have thoroughly searched the used boat market, and concluded that the only way to get exactly what you want is to build it yourself..


At least we start to get some vague idea of cost. Fiberglass boats are undoubtedly the cheapest, fastest way to get out there and cruise. If, however, you ARE one who likes to hit the odd rock, log or shipping container at night - you really should try to get some accurate time and cost estimates to see what you're getting into.



Brent Swain said:


> That is because they are the only boats which can take a head on, full throttle impact with ice, with zero dammage. Winston Bushnell did that in Dove 111 with no damage whatever. You can read about it in Geoge Hone's book "The NW Passage on ten dollars a day" or Len Shermans book "Arctic Oddysy', both available from Harbour Chandlery in Nanaimo BC.
> In November 85 I was frozen in on Mansons Lagoon on Cortes Island in 5 inches of ice . I broke out by ramming it at full throttle for three days. The only damage was chipped paint on the stem and on the leading edges of the keels. Try that with a non metal boat.
> In winter, I find the easiest way to clean my hull is to motor thru a quarter mile of ice.
> In winter ,there is nothing warmer and drier than a metal hull with a good 1 1/2 inches of sprayfoam over everything.


It sounds like these boats are only meant for cold water sailing. I like flip-flops, but you might prefer ugs.



Brent Swain said:


> Actually, except for the odd paint chip, the steel and paint job are as good as it was 29 years ago, inside and out, with an hour a year maintenance.


See photos.



Brent Swain said:


> The steel for the basic shell of my 36 is around
> $9k. Try buy the resin and fibreglass materials to build a hull, decks, cabin, wheelhouse, cockpit , keel, rudder, and skeg for a 36 ft fibreglas shell for that much! The left over scraps, around 4%, make up your anchors, woodstove etc. Your cleats, instead of costing $40 each from a ship swindlers cost $1.80 a pound from the scrapyard, and once welded down with a dollars worth of rod, will never work loose or leak. Ditto your self steering, anchor winch, fittings, etc etc


Make sure your build site is near a scrapyard with boat stuff.



Brent Swain said:


> When I was able to get a 36 ft shell together for around $8K, the cheapest commercial builders were doing it for was $25,000. Colvin estimated 1,000 hours to put a hull and decks together, using his outdated methods, something I do in 100 hours. One has to question the math skills of anyone claiming that 100 hours is the same, and costs the same as 1,000 hours!


Starting to get some general idea of cost. But very little.



Brent Swain said:


> How many fibreglass boats in the same weigh range as mine have survived 16 days pounding on a Baja leeshore in up to 12 ft surf? Mine has. How many have survived pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef and been dragged back across it with no damage? Mine has. If your calculations say otherwise ,then your calculations are obviously wrong, and clearly missing a factor..
> The logic in owning a steel boat is in not having to worry about hitting Fukashima debris in the night and losing your life and that of your crew and kids in the night . Had the Sleavin family been in a steel boat ,none would have died . Discouraging people from the wisdom of choosing the greatly enhanced safety of a steel hull for offshore cruising, is life threateningly irresponsible.


The boat on the Fijian reef that he is claiming as "Mine" is Nothin' Wong - yet he reverses himself below and says it's NOT his when talking about Clive, the owner. Maybe part of this is the design vs. construction argument (if he helps build it it's "his" - when it's convenient - even if he didn't design it). But you wouldn't know it unless you were paying close attention to what he says.

The Sleavin family remark is completely outrageous on every level. Here are photos of the freighter than ran down the Sleavin's boat:



















Brent, if you actually believe that "Had the Sleavin family been in a steel boat ,none would have died.", you should be willing to put this claim to the test in your own boat...with you aboard...with a freighter this size running you down at cruising speed. We'll wait for the video and report.

More on the Sleavins. 
Tragedy Ends Family's Sailing Adventure : Accident: Their yacht is hit off New Zealand. The Santa Clarita woman is saved but husband, children are lost at sea. - Los Angeles Times



Brent Swain said:


> I built ULLR in Comox BC in the early 80s. The owners worked part time on her, evenings and weekends. The steel cost $3800 back then and scrap stainless was $1 a pound. I have no records of what else they spent on her .
> 
> One is the wine coloured 36 in the photos you posted, built for $35,000, 5 years ago, Winston Bushnells boat, beautifully finished inside and out.


Though these figures weren't quite accurate - it does at least give us a number to work off of.



Brent Swain said:


> Many, including myself, pay far less attention to the odd rock ,than we would in a fragile plastic or wooden boat, which couldn't survive a collision with a rock, without serious hull dammage. We dont sail in rockpiles and uncharted waters, in stark fear. If we hit a rock we shrug and carry on, no wories.. Some have hit rocks at three knots some at 6 or more and everything in between, with no real damage except a tiny paint chip.


This is the BS version of seamanship. It's a rare discipline.



Brent Swain said:


> Roughly 200 of my boats have been built without frames. None has ever failed at sea. They have survived everything from 16 days pounding in 8 to 12 ft seas on the west coast of Baja and being pulled off thru such surf ,lifted and dropped 12 feet onto hard sand every wave for 1/4 mile with no damage, pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf and pulled off thru it in big surf, again with no visible dammage except the paint job gone, a single season passage thru the NW passage, again with zero damage.


200 might have been started but there seem that there are very, very few of them out there actually cruising.



Brent Swain said:


> I was just given another SSB- Ham radio for free, my second freebe ham radio . I sailed many years without radar, never had a fab all, my wood stove cost me $50 for stainless .I have never had a chartplotter, th efirst diesel for my current boat cost me $1,000. I have never suggested that anyone can buy one of my boats cheap and get al the work and resourcefuillness the owner put in for free. One can build and equip their own brentboat for a fraction the cost of having one built. Do you work for free? No? Then dont expect others to.


This is important when you're figuring costs. If you want to be below that $50K-plus total, you'll need to hit the dumpsters, scrap yards, and surplus shops, and try to score lots of free stuff. This, of course, will affect the time side of your plan (adding a few additional years before you can sail), but you WILL save money. You'll just be really old when you finish.



Brent Swain said:


> When you ask for a price breakdown on building my boats, you are asuming that my clients are incredibly stupid enough to buy everything new, at retail prices. They are definitely not that stupid. Most are far more practical and resourceful that that ,unlike those who foolishly assume that they are as dense as the average urban consumer, an extreme insult to their intelligence and resourcefulness. A friend was given an old boat, rotten, with a good mast, rig sails, winches , anchors anchor rodes, runing rigging ,etc etc. a freebe. How many more price zeros can a resouceful home builder put on your proposed list? There is no predicting what kind of deals a resourcful home builder will come up with, so such a list is only valid for the super dense, urban consumerism disciple. Those kind of halfwits are not amoung my clients.


I guess he's telling you, interested customer, that budgets don't matter? You'll be fine as long as you're not stupid enough to pay retail? What do you think? And before you answer, remember he doesn't want you to be a gullible mass and just believe what the yacht designers and builders of today simply tell you.



Brent Swain said:


> When I started my current 31 in 84 , I had $4,000 to my name ,total. When I launched her 30 day later ,I had $40. People at Newcastle marina at the time including Gerald, Evan and Winston can afirm the build to launching time. From there to sailing and living aboard, minus my cost of living, was $2,000 left for the boat.Mainsail Sig Jantzen sold me for $100 the awning I made my jib out of cost me $80 , interior panneling freebe, dito the 3/4 and 3/8th plywood.


You need to decide if you can do this on your boat.



Brent Swain said:


> These are actual experiences, not abstract calculations, which have far less relevance, unless you are ready to tell NASA that they are wasting their time on testing gear to destruction, as you can give them far more accurate calculations than reality, on your computer. Perhaps you can save Ralph Nader a lot of product testing expenses, by telling him that he need only read the price tag on any item to find how good it is, or simply double the price on anything, to double the quality automatically.


I'm still waiting for one of his blocks so I can go all NASA on it.



Brent Swain said:


> I dont need calculations to know that a 4 inch sch 40 stailnless pipe welded in to the deck, and a plate ten inches below it ,welded to the hull is stronger than a bolted down pot metal cleat.I dont need any calculations to know that a half inch stainless rod chock, fully welded into the steel bulwark is stronger than a bolted down "yachtie" chock on a teak rail. I donty need calculations to know that a 34 inch high, solid stainless sch 40 pipe rail is safer than knee high ""yachtie" plastic coated rails, the stanchions made out of something slightly thicker than stainless tinfoil. I don't need calculations to realise that an on epiece aluminium hatch is more waterproof, easier to use, and and tougher than a decorative teak sliding hatch and dropboards, a hairbrained arrangement. I dont need calculations to know that hands on building and cruising experience over 40 years produces a far better and more practical boat than calculatuions made by the best comnpruter whiz with minimal if any low budget ocean cruising expereince, off the beaten path. I dont need calculations to look at a 2x4 alongside a 4x4 and figure out which is the strongest.I dont need calculations to se that 3/16th aluminium block cheeks are stronger than plastic ones.I dont need calculations to see that the parts which make up a $30 block can be easily made in minutes ,out of less than $2 worth of material.


Yes...the blocks.



Brent Swain said:


> Check for the books 'Around the World on Viski" by Don Shore, " Arctic Oddysy " by Len Sherman. "Northwest Passage on Ten Dollars a Day " by George Hone, and "No Fixed Address"by Clive Hamman for substantiation, unless you consider all these people and their crews liars, as determined by armchair experts who were not there, but can tell by their telepathic powers what really did or did not happen.


Nothing on the Don Shore book. $20 for the Len Sherman book (10 times more than a BrentBlock). And as for "No Fixed Address"by Clive Hamman, $10 - and this is the guy Brent called a drunk? I'd rather have the block and save some coin for cruising.



Brent Swain said:


> My boat is an hour or two maintenance a year.


Compare with above and below. See photos.



Brent Swain said:


> Bob
> It was in this thread where you said you consider it bad seamanship to not try to get the last quarter knot out of a boat, at all costs. Dont have time to hunt it down.


False.



Brent Swain said:


> A 303 british will shoot thru 23 inches of douglas fir, weight 69 lbs per sq ft, dry, much heavier wet.. You can see that stump in Von Donop inlet, just west of the lagoon. It will barely shoot thru 3/8th inch mild steel plate, and only if solidly supported, weight 15 lbs per sq foot. Or, if you have a freind with a 303 or 308, same energy, you can try it yourself. And you say the wood is stronger? Now thats making stuff up! That takes a bit of self delusion to believe.
> Haven't tried ballistics on Fibreglass .


A yacht designer doing extensive, real life testing.



Brent Swain said:


> One can call oneself a designer without ever having set foot on a boat, some do. So tell us of your extensive experience in cruising for long terms, and crossing oceans, before you first began calling yourself a designer ;Bob, Jeff?


It appears that Clive Hamman has more cruising experience than Brent - and disagrees with Brent's maintenance claims. According to Brent, go with the experience.



Brent Swain said:


> The biggest hurdles most wanabe cruisers face are time and money, which most designers ignore competely.


Still trying to figure out the actual time and money requirements (worst-case) for one of Brent's boats. So far he's ignoring the question completely.



Brent Swain said:


> The first 36 I built pounded on a Baja lee shore in 8 to12 ft surf for 16 days, and was pulled off thru 12 ft surf ,lifted and dropped on every wave for 1/4 mile. A wood or fibreglass boat would have broken up in minutes, but you say they are stronger than steel? Now thats making stuff up. THe sistership to Moitessiers Joshua ," Trismus" was blown ashore on Rangiroa and abandoned in 1975. Ten years later she was pulled off intact and used for shipping coconuts around. Would a wood or fibreglas boat have survived that long? And you say wood and fibreglass are stronger? Now thats making stuff up. Better hang onto your crock Bob. You are gonna need it, more than anyone else here.
> You claim that cruisers dodging Fukashima debris would be better of on a boat which would have broken up quickly in those conditions? Now thats making stuff up! Wood is the weakest, most problem prone material ever used for a boat.
> Someone on the origamiboats site mentioned someone who was bragging about taking 6 weeks to get a 35 ft Roberts pre cut shell together, something I have done in a week. Could the comparatively horrendously complicated building methods used in the Roberts have something to do with it? I have even had people claim that the 180 feet of chine weld on them takes no longer to cut, grind, fit, and weld than the 28 feet of chine on my 36. Now thats making stuff up!
> Jeff claims that if he makes a big fibreglass hammer it can pound thru 3/16th plate more easily than a steel hammer of the same weight? Now thats making stuff up!
> Yes fibreglass boats are cheap. I have encouraged people getting into cruising, to buy one to get some expeerince on one, knowing full well that they wil eventually want one of my steel boats . One just built a 36 and his fibreglass boat will soon be up for sale. Others are dreaming of owning one of my boats .One plans to upgrade form a Roberts to one of mine this fall. All the fibreglass boats have deck leaks. They are giving them away for good reason. Their designers have fallen on hard times lately. I have been turning down a lot of work lately, more than I could ever do.
> Yes, when you know that you can hit most rocks without any serious damage, or ,in most cases zero damage, you tend to get a bit careless, but why would you worry about it anyway? Do you consider it good seamanship, and thus "Wise" to choose a boat which would sink in those circumstances? Seamanship begins with the choice of boat.
> And you claim that a boat which can survive such incidents undamaged, is a poor choice, or not as strong as a boat which would suffer severe damage in the same incident? Now thats making stuff up! Go get your crock,Bob!
> The last two trips I made home from Tonga to BC took 23 days from Hawaii, beating into strong trade winds for the first half , not exactly poor windward performance for a heavily loaded 31 footer, with all I own on board.
> 
> PS. Have you tried wooden rigging wire? Why not ,if you believe it is stronger?


Sounds like you should buy a fiberglass boat first, go cruising and have fun. Then if you get scared of Fukushima Debris and want to hit some reefs, rocks, and logs, you should sell the plastic boat and build one of Brent's. I think that's reasonable.



Brent Swain said:


> Jeff , when your criteria are low cost, speed of construction, and impact resistance, could you put together your wood and kevlar hull and decks for a 36 for $9K worth of materials, in less that a week with only one skilled worker and one unskilled, working in a backyard, which I have done for a 36? How far could you get in that time with $9K worth of materials? Would it survive a sledge hammer for as long as you cared to pound, as one of my boats will?


Hull and decks should cost $9K and take a week to get done. Can _you_ do it for that?



Brent Swain said:


> Smackdaddys credibility?
> ZERO!


Now THIS one is COMPLETELY bogus!



Brent Swain said:


> When I guy discovers a way to reduce the time to get a steel shell together by 90% doesnt try to monopolize the knowledge, but trains others how to do his job, then sends enough work for one of his students to build himself two boats and build a house , forgoing all that income to go cruising&#8230;
> 
> When he writes a book telling others how to do it ( His trade secrets) and charges the lowest price for any marine book for it&#8230;
> 
> When he charges $350 for a set of plans for a 36&#8230;
> 
> When he spends many years on chatlines ,offering far more affordable solutions to their problems, free of charge, at no benefit to himself , and trying to convince cruisers that using their heads instead of their pocket books to solve problems in order to maximize their cruisng play time&#8230;
> 
> When he offers to give his book revenues to a shelter for abused women, donates much to such shelters, out of a minimal income, gets a cop fired for advocating an abuser try a ballistic solution on his victim, at some risk and no benefit for himself,
> and beats up the odd wife abuser, and helps his victims out, again at no benefit to himself&#8230;
> 
> When he posts on several sites how to build a beter sheet block for $2 than most are paying $30 or more for&#8230;
> 
> What doies Smack call him?
> Selfish.
> 
> What is his approach to those without a lot of money trying to get off the treadmill?
> Discouragement, cynicism and obstructionism, along with a lot of elitist guilt tripping.


$350 for plans, $54 for DVDs, $20 for the book, and the odd wife-beater beating for free. Is that $424 well spent in getting you toward your cruising goal? If not, at least some cops were fired and wife-beaters beat.



Brent Swain said:


> I have had zero credible, affordable competition in this area for a while now, in well built steel boats.


It is true that the market for steel boats seems incredibly small.



Brent Swain said:


> I'd consider a nit Whit someone who would pay a designer who has zero hands on experience in building in steel, who has never got his hands dirty building a steel boat, nor crossing an ocean in a steel boat, nor maintained one for any length of time , but goes by hearsay and old wives tales about steel boats, mostly propagated by those who are trying to sell them something else.


More conversation with highly respected designer.



Brent Swain said:


> Nothing saves your bacon no matter what. Steel just exponentially improves the odds, the definition of good seamanship improving the odds. How many Sleavin family type disasters could be avoided had they not been discouraged by disinformation, from choosing a steel boat? It would have saved theirs.


The Sleavin family remark is completely outrageous on every level. Here are photos of the freighter than ran down the Sleavin's boat:



















Brent, if you actually believe that "Had the Sleavin family been in a steel boat ,none would have died.", you should be willing to put this claim to the test in your own boat...with you aboard...with a freighter this size running you down at cruising speed. We'll wait for the video and report.

More on the Sleavins. 
Tragedy Ends Family's Sailing Adventure : Accident: Their yacht is hit off New Zealand. The Santa Clarita woman is saved but husband, children are lost at sea. - Los Angeles Times

+++++++++++++Brent claims Jeff_H said something idiotic, when it was actually Brent that said it.++++++++++



Brent Swain said:


> I just measured the hole in 3/8th plate made by a 30 calibre bullet. It measured 48 calibre, not exactly exploding the bullet, and not making a significantly bigger hole, when I have seen them expand at least as much, or more in wood.
> I wouldn't put much faith in the math skills or judgement of anyone who believes that the energy needed to push a 180 grain projectile hard enough to go thru 23 inches of fir, can be contained in a wooden barrel. I saw a 3 inch shell hole in a sunken tug at Fanning Island thru the iron prop. Anyone there can dive on it, just off the village. *You couldn't get that kind of energy from a wooden barrel.
> It just shows how ludicrous the comments about the strength of wood made here really are.*


Now THAT I agree with, Brent. Who on earth would even conceive the preposterous idea of using wood for a gun barrel? Ludicrous!



Brent Swain said:


> Then you could also do wooden gun barrels .


Oh, yeah, it was you.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



Brent Swain said:


> In this debate I am reminded of the time I went to a steel boat gathering at the Bluewater Cruising Association. I showed up in bluejeans . That was in the early 80s. A guy selling very expensive steel boats bondoed to look like fibreglass boats showed up in a pin striped suit with gold cuff links. People thought "Gee, if he has on a pin striped suit with gold cuff links, he surely must know a lot more about steel boatbuilding than the guy in blue jeans. A friend went to have a look at one of his imitation fibreglass boats which the guy in the suit said was about to be spray foamed. It was welded one side only and you could see nearly the thickness of the metal into the grove where the inside weld should have been The outside weld had been ground flush, leaving only the thickness of a beer can holding it together. She had only a thin coating of primer inside no proper epoxy which is one coat of primer more than Foulkes of Fehr boars, other "BC Professionally" Built boats . I met a KIWI who told me his friend had bought one of these imitation fibreglas boats , he contract specified 2 inches of weld on the stringers every 6 inches. He found his had a half inch of weld every 3 ft holding his stringers in.He went after the guy in the suit ,with lawsuit and when he finally caught him the guy in the suit declared bankruptcy and closed his shop.
> No one I have built a boat for in the last 37 years has had any such complaints, even if I do wear blue jeans, and not a pin striped suit with gold cufflinks





Brent Swain said:


> Bob
> When you talk about charging $34,000 for a set of plans , you are talking about screwing a wannabe cruiser out of decades of cruising funds, for what, a boat that may go a quarter knot faster? Naive decorative priorities from someone who has never done any of the kind of cruising his clients hope to do, who has zero hands on boatbuilding experience ? You learn a lot getting your hands dirty about the best way of doing things which you would never learn from drawing pictures.How useful will that quarter of a knot be compared to an extra $34,000 in the kitty?
> I would never consider screwing a client out of money which I don't need, and in the process, screwing them out of their cruising dreams.


See above numbers (derived by customer accounts found on the interwebs, not from the actual designer/builder who won't provide them) then re-read this post. $34K for designs from a world-renown designer, or $424-plus-~$35+K and several years. Either way, you're still not in the water.



Brent Swain said:


> I would never consider screwing a client out of money which I don't need, and in the process, screwing them out of their cruising dreams .I charge $30 an hour, which is all the money I ever need out of a job. People tell me I could charge a lot more, but why would I when I don't need the money. I get more satisfaction out of seeing them living their dream, and having made it possible, than I ever could by screwing them out of it.
> I plan to train 4 more people how to build my boats this winter; youth , so I can send all my work to them.


See above about screwing. Also, I've offered him $33/hr for the blocks ( 10% raise). No luck yet.



Brent Swain said:


> I quit being a Karate sucker many decades ago.


How you make a few extra bucks around the dojo is no business of ours.



Brent Swain said:


> The propaganda against steel boats, spread by those who are trying to sell something else, have sent many families to sea in boats which are far less able to survive a collision with anything . The Sleavins may have been one such example , among how many more, we will never know.
> The best seamanship in the world wont prevent you from hitting Fukashima debris on a foggy night. ( Like that huge concrete dock which floated up on an Oregon beach) A steel hull will drastically improve your odds of surviving. I once built a 36 for a doctor who had sailed his Spencer 35 to New Zealand and back to BC. He said the peace of mind sailing at night in a steel hull, with his family aboard , was exponentially greater than in his fibreglass hull.
> You can find his latest adventures by doing a search under Silas Crosby.


The Sleavins again. Along with the Fukushima Debris, are you seeing the marketing angle here? What is the main reason to buy/build a BrentBoat? It ain't the "dream" of cruising. It's the nightmare of cruising.



Brent Swain said:


> Basically Bob , I am trying to prove that those without mega bucks can build and go to sea in boats which don't cost a fortune ,with gear that doesn't cost a fortune, but which are much better boats and gear for their purposes, than the commercial builders and ship swindlers are selling.





Brent Swain said:


> Macolm was anything but happy about your Reliance 37 or the disinformation you gave him about directional stability. You had it 180 degrees bass ackwards.
> I dont keep track of all the books and plans I send out.


False.



Brent Swain said:


> Chuck Norris wouldn't stand a chance against a good amateur boxer.


Definitely one of BS's most outlandish claims.



Brent Swain said:


> I have never claimed that fibrglass boats are useless. They are extremely cheap the older ones far better built than the newer, far more expensive ones. They are often far cheaper than any steel boat you could build . All my clients know that. I tell them that. They just dont want a plastic boat in which you have to worry about running into things in the night .


I think the answer to the 99%-er cruiser wannabe should be pretty clear by now.



Brent Swain said:


> You did say you start by screwing them out of several decades worth of cruising funds, right off the bat.


See numbers above and below. Who's getting screwed?



Brent Swain said:


> A freind many years ago, priced the cost of fibreglassing materials for a Bristol chanel cutter, Ater being given a quote of $12,000 for hull and decks, he watched me pull a 31ft hull, decks, cabin, wheelhouse, keels, rudder and skeg together in a couple of weeks,for $3500. Then, considering the cost of deck hardware for a fibreglass boat vs $1 a pound for the stainless to do it on a steel boat, he walked away from that project, and has been building steel boats ever since.


Is it $9K or $3,500? We keep going back and forth.



Brent Swain said:


> My boats are fast, go to windward well, and make good passage times. They have often outsailed fibreglass boats they were not supposed to outsail, including Beneteaus. Their strength has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt, over the last 32 years. There is no point in waterproof bulkheads, as there is little if any chance of punching a hole in 3/16th plate on a 36 footer. They have also proven that, with good initial preparation, planning and painting ,maintenance can be reduced to less that of a fibreglass boat undergoing hard , heavy full time use. Nothing breaks, pulls loose, or leaks in welded down gear, unlike with bolted down gear on fibreglass.


Yet you have "air-tight" hatches and ports? I will grant Brent that bolted down stuff on fiberglass does typically require work every 5-10 years...maybe less if it's being sailed full time. But I don't know many people who lose sleep over this. It's not that big of a deal.



Brent Swain said:


> If my clients wanted a fibreglass boat, they would have bought a fibreglas boat . Many have, then decided to upgrade to steel. It is no secret to anyone sniffing around boats, that they are available for a fraction the cost of materials, in any size shape and a huge variety of designs. Relatively good plastic boats are a dime a dozen.


Again, this is great advice as far as I'm concerned.



Brent Swain said:


> Good steel boats are rare around here. For anyone wanting one which doesn't take forever to build , one which uses the most modern methods, I have no competition. Most of my boats are 3/16th hull plate 1/8th decks, cabin, cockpit, and wheelhouse, 1/4 inch keel sides, half inch leading edges, and half inch bottomplate, welded both sides, cold galvanized wheelabraded and primed, 5 coats of epoxy tar on the outside, three coats of epoxy tar inside, sprayfoamed , and all outside corners trimed with stainless, reducing maintenance by over 80%
> You just wont find a commercially built boat around here built to those standards. If anyone did , it would be priced far beyond the means of most cruisers. For a home builder it means a bit of extra time and expense, their own time. For a commercial builder, fully welded, a good paint job inside and out, stainless trim, extra steel thickness in important areas, etc, would mean bankrupcy, and no credit given to him by customers, who have no comprehension of the importance of such matters.


If these boats are rare, how does that square with the 200 boats built claim above? I guess you can see why Brent has no competition as he claimed earlier.



Brent Swain said:


> When I was a beginner I used to drool at all the good stuff in the marine supplies. After crossing the Pacific etc, I laughed at all the useless ways they have to sucker beginers into spending their money on such flimsy useless crap.





Brent Swain said:


> Pauls boat is taking him forever because it is a 57 footer, not a 36 footer, far more complex multi chine, not my single chine, and definitely not a shape I would ever design.
> 
> *(Abuse deleted)*
> 
> I leave the lying to those who tell people it is worth their expense to pay them decades worth of cruising funds to draw pictures for them.
> 
> I only helped Clive get the shell of Nuthin Wong together,from an old Chinese design he gave me, not my design, for a trade, the rest was his department, not mine. Nuthin Wong just spent 4 1/2 months on a reef in Panama, pounded by ocean swells, zero hull damage. How long would one of to your dainty little plastic things have lasted in those conditions.


Note that Brent now says Clive's boat ISN'T his - yet this is one of the main examples he uses for how strong "his boats" are. 
Which is it?



Brent Swain said:


> I gave my 31 footer,30 gallons of epoxy at the outset, inside and out, along with a lot of marine enamel. All outside corners are trimed with stainless. My 29 year od paint job is as good as the day I put it on, except for the odd paint chip, where I do my 2 hours year on touch up. When a boat gets to that stage , sandblasting and at least 5 coats of epoxy tar on the outside three inside and a UV resistant coat over that wil eliminate most of the maintenace for decades.





Brent Swain said:


> Clives Time on a med reef is documented in his last book "No Fixed Address" A good read ,hard to put down. His time on the Panama reef in Boca de Toros will be covered in his next book. Or if you know anyone in Bocan de Toros, they can confirm it. A "Friend" who he left to look after her, towed it on the reef so his friends could strip her. He had to stay in Canada to get his pension in order. They only recently got her off.
> I'l ask him to post the videos here when I get in contact with him again.





Brent Swain said:


> Bob you are a liar when you claim that a carbon fibre rudder at huge expense is a good idea for the average cruiser, when you claim that style over substance is a good priority fir the average cruiser,or you claim that you actually earn the $34000 for drawing pictures of boats , when some can buy a whole boat and go cruising for a year for less money,and you give this advice with little or no offshore cruising experience and zero hands on boatbuilding expereince. You lie when you imply that with zero experience owning and maintaining a steel boat, you know more about the costs of doing so, than someone who has owned, designed, built and maintained steel boats for 37 years. Then you follow it up with the childish, adolecent jeering of a 13 year old .


Bob Perry: $34,000. Brent Swain: $30,424 (see site, tools, equipment, utilities, etc. below). NOW you're ready to start building the boat you chose.



Brent Swain said:


> Clive has hit two reefs in 21 years of full time cruising around the world, one in the Balerics when he was aboard and one when he was thousands of miles away, and thief towed her onto a reef.
> My clients have had no complaints about maintenance, in fact they all say they have very little to do. I met a guy in New Zealand ( Nelson) who had a steel Matangi motorsailer he had built in Australia. He said that, after years of owning wood and fibreglass boats, he was amazed at how little mainenance his steel boat took.
> Those who tell you they have tons of maintenance on their steel boats simply havent figured it out yet, and are thus a poor source of information on the subject. You'd be better off to get your advice from someone who has little maintenace on his steel boat.


Clive mentions on his website that maintaining a steel boat is time consuming and very expensive. And his boat is a craphole.



Brent Swain said:


> Bear in mind that this is advice from someone who has never built a boat never cruised offshore...


Remember, Clive has as much or more cruising experience in a steel boat than Brent does. Who are you going to believe?



Brent Swain said:


> There is no way I worked 500 hours on that boat . Did most of it in the month of June 1992, then went sailing for the rest of the summer. Steve worked part time on her, while working as a doctor in Courtenay. Being a doctor who had just sold a Spencer 35 he had sailed to New Zealand and back ,he could afford to buy new what most would have time to find used.
> The steel for the keels is a 8 ft by 12 ft 1/4 inch plate and the half inch bottoms , 6 inches wide by 6 ft long , about 1,000 lbs in total for the steel. It would take more of your AIG , Enron style, creative calculating to make it 2,000 lbs. The plans don't call for the extra 500 lbs of ballast and Steve is the only one who has put that much in.


Brent implies a customer is lying on his blog.



Brent Swain said:


> I launched my 31 a month after the steel arrived in 84. The folks at Newcastle marina can confirm that. Winston Bushnell can confirm that.
> I had $4,000 to my name, total when I ordered the steel, then $40 when I launched her. Then I made another $2,000 to detail rig and get her liveable, by october the same year after having puled Uller and Moon Raven together in June of that year. The folks on Cortes Island can confirm that.


These figures are ~30 years old. They have absolutely no relevance to today...unless you think you can do this too.



Brent Swain said:


> I spent three weeks in Winnipeg building Ron Rietsma's boat which sails on lake Winnipeg. In those three weeks I got most of the steel work done including the mast, self steering , all deck details, tankage , lifelines handrails hatches , etc etc in effect all the steel detailing as well. I was only there for three weeks.


Can you meet this schedule for your own BrentBoat? If not, why?



Brent Swain said:


> Sure, some, who don't have a lot of money, will be stupid enough to to buy everything new , salvage nothing, despite our being awash in perfectly good used gear with absolutely nothing wrong with it, then complain about the cost of everything. Some will spend their working time smoking dope and drinking, or taking trips to Asia the west Indies, etc, do. doing nothing on the boat for years on end, then complain about how long it is taking,Some have. I have only claimed that one CAN get a boat together quickly without it costing a fortune.


If you didn't finish your BrentBoat on schedule - are you stupid, a dope smoker, or a drunk?



Brent Swain said:


> I let people who want to build a steel boat, find a site buy the materials acquoire the tools then hire me for an hourly wage plus expenses, and I help them get the basic shell to apoint where they can handle the rest.


Your first 3 steps: find a build site, spends thousands on materials, and "acquire tools"...cost: tens of thousands...plus $350 for the plans, $54 for the DVS, and $20 for the book. I'd say the total to this point is easily nearing the $34K you'd pay Bob Perry for a set of plans...and you STILL haven't even STARTED your BrentBoat. (See "screwing the cruiser" above.)



Brent Swain said:


> I can give some proices for the last 36 I built.
> Mast and all standing rigging- zero
> Sails - zero.
> Sheet and halyard winches - zero
> Running rigging and blocks- zero
> Two anchors with plenty of almost new rode- zero
> He was given an old boat with all the gear listed above, in good shape, for free.
> With so many cheap or freebe boats out there, it shows how useless, and needlessly discouraging cost estimates can be.


How many BrentBoaters have finished their boat with this budget? Did any of you care about a budget beforehand? (See above.)

Another run at the cost and schedule you can expect when you build your BrentBoat:


Brent Swain said:


> Two anchors with long rodes, in good condition, almost unused - free. They came with the freebe boat.
> Stainless galley sink- free from the dumpster. Force ten three burner propane galley stove with oven - free, donated by a guy who came into an inheritance, who bought himself a new one.
> That boat, started last mid october, and worked on two or three days a week most of the winter, will be launching this coming wedneday.
> Here are some costs for my boat.
> Stainless woodstove - $25 worth of scrap stainless and ten dollars worth of welding rod. Gally cook stove -$50 from harbor freight.
> Interior - 50 dollars , plywood either given to me or scrounged off the beaches, and tropical hardwood from motorcycle crates, mostly gumwood.
> Stainles galley sink - free from a dumpster. Bilge pumps- $10 worth of scrap stainless and $5 worth of welding rods. 2 diaphragms for $5 each.
> Composting head - $25 worth of materials. Roller furler- $80 worth of materials. Anchors - free materials from scrap piles and $3 worth of welding rod. Anchor winch - $35 worth of scrap stainless and $10 worth of welding rod. Mast - free, a gift of spruce. Turnbuckles $22 each, new, galvanized 5/8th inch. 5/16th galv rigging wire , $24 from a scrapyard. Blocks- $2 each made from scrap aluminium and poly sheet.
> A kid, whom I'm training to do my job , found enough plywood in a dump, to build his interior several times over, in a single trip..


That's $346 if you're counting. Maybe you can start your budget spreadsheet with these figures?



Brent Swain said:


> Right, another 1,000 or 2,000 lbs in the keel structure .Right on, closer to 1,000 lbs,exactly as Steve said,. After ther passage of 21 years the memory of how many hours I spent on her fades, especialy someone elses hours.


Now he's backtracking on calling his customer a liar. That's good.



Brent Swain said:


> You guys keep forgeting I am retired and if someone would rather buy a plastic boat and risk his life among the debris, I dont give a rat's ass if he doesnt buy my book or plans.
> I make my book available to those who know better than to blow their cruising funds on commercialy made crap, when they can make far better boats and gear for a fraction the cost , themselves, the only ones I am interested in dealing with. Yes I enjoy shooting ducks off a fence especially the feather brained ducks who make such ridiculous comments that a wooden boat is stronger than a steel one. Such crap must be challenged, lest someone die from believing it.


Yes. Such crap must be challenged.



Brent Swain said:


> When Robin Knox johnston finished his circumnavigation in Suhaili, she was drooling rust everywhere, far more so than Moitessiers Joshua. Joshua was built of steel, Suhaili was built of some snobby pretentious material called "TEAK' ( a type of dead vegitation) a far inferior boat building material than steel.
> 
> Smackdaddy, how did you lose your last boat?


RKJ won the race. Moitissier went crazy. Clear lesson: Steel boats drive people insane and make them losers?



Brent Swain said:


> I checked Steve's blog again, and see no mention of the boat being dead empty, while crossing an ocean. Can you cross an ocean in a completely empty boat, or predict exactly what amount of weight any owner will put aboard, as you imply I should be doing?


This is the way Brent refuses to post a weight study for his design. It's Steve's writing that's the problem.



Brent Swain said:


> I have only dealt with two people who loved their pot and booze too much to finish their boat. One, after pulling the hull together, did nothinjg for several years onher. I volenteered 8 hours and in that time , including diigging the steel out of the grass grown over it. If one is short of money, and lack of money will shorten ones cruising time, only then is buying new foolish.


Make sure to weigh how much you like your pot and booze before becoming one of Brent's object lessons. And if you're short on money and want more cruising time, see "cheap fiberglass boats" above.



Brent Swain said:


> My steel came wheelabraded and primed with carboweld cold galvanizing zinc rich primer, 85% zinc dry weight. I touched up the welds with a similar product, washed all the welding smoke off, with first TSP then vinegar then water, let her dry, then gave her 5 coats of bar rust 235 brown on the hull, three coats inside, and four on the decks. The thicker the epoxy the better. This I covered ,for colour and UV protection with marine enamel. Epoxy gets continuously thiner under UV. I give her another coat of cheap marine enamel every few years. To get anything to stick to epoxy, you have to put your first coat of enamel or urethane on the last coat of epoxy, wet on wet. Otherwise it will fall off in sheets.If you are using epoxy tar, it will bleed thru and look like hell. Give it another coat in 24 hours, then leave it alone for several weeks, to harden up well. Then you can put any colour you want over it , including white, and it will not bleed thru .





Brent Swain said:


> Do the whole inside of the hull this way, wherever there are hollows. Dont worry about what it looks like inside, that will be covered with many coats of epoxy tar and sprayfoam, and never seen again. It's the outside, and minimizing filler which counts.


Then why is Brent checking his interior hull under the foam?



Brent Swain said:


> Bob. You have some of the best looking boats out there, second only to mine.





Brent Swain said:


> Anyone can check the origamiboats site ( yahoo groups) or my book, or Alex's video and see origami methods being used to build decks, cabins, keels, rudders, skegs, cockpit and wheelhouses which we have done since the first origami boats I built in 1980, something Kasten says cant be done. Origami methods mean welding deck beams and stringers on, on a workbench working at a comfortable level ,eliminating overhead welding in awkward positions for that job. As I pointed out, I have put the decks on a 36 in 8 hours, not so easy working overhead in the traditional way. My time and money saving methods go far beyond the construction of a hull, including saving a lot of money on detailing and fitting out.. You can get more factual information from the origamiboats site, yahoo groups, from people who have actual hands on experience with the method, rather than uninformed speculation, misleadingly offered as fact .


Can you meet this timeline and budget? Is that really what it will take for you to do it?

*Brent is temporarily banned for insulting Bob Perry's wife...*



Brent Swain said:


> Have you guys seen this guys wife? Aesthetics?
> No argueing with the weight given by a government highway scale.
> Bedtime. Getin dark, too dark to see.


This definitely doesn't square with A.D.'s letter on Latitude 38 when he claims this:



> I guess it's no surprise that he has been banned from several boatbuilding sites. Why? Because he challenges the status quo. And because he advocates a simple, inexpensive approach to boating while eschewing the "just throw money at it and pay experts" approach advocated by the advertising sponsors of the boating media.


This had nothing to do with status quo or greed. Sailors don't insult other sailors' family. Ever. Yet Brent does, and is banned for it - and you defend him by blaming the forum? Classy.



Brent Swain said:


> I sincerely apologise to Bobs wife, for involving someone who is not involved in any way. After Bobs very personal insults to me and my work, I guess I didn't see the part where he and others are allowed to insult anyone they please with impunity, and their targets are nor allowed to respond in kind. I had no business involving an inocent third party. If you go back you will find my responses are just that, responses to personal insults, first hurled at me.


"I apologize for insulting a sailor's wife by calling her fat and ugly. But it's his fault for making me do it."



Brent Swain said:


> The interesting thing about my 36 was ,when I first drew her up, while it can take many days to get things right, erasing and redrawing lines to get the numbers right , for the 36 they seemed to just drop into place. On the first drawing the LBC was right where I wanted it, 5.4 stations, as was the prismatic coefficient, .54 ,and the displacement. I rechecked it several times and it was right on. Ditto the hull balance, when heeled 25 degrees.
> 
> I then, carefully made a very accurate model, to take the plate shapes off. The model also gives you the option of double checking the LCB, by ballasting it till it floats on her lines, then balancing the model on a pencil. The balance point is your LCB. Weighing it, then multiplying the model's weight by the cube of the scale, gives you the weigh of the full sized boat ,floating on the same waterline. For a 1/12th scale,


This is the engineering method used on BrentBoats. I think he also used a grocery store scale for the weight study.



Brent Swain said:


> When Allan Farrel who has built many very successful boats by eye, over many decades, never calculating anything mathematically, made a model of his traditional junk 'China Cloud" again with no calculations, I took his model to a digital grocery store scale, and had it weighed. Mutiplying this weight by the cube of the scale, gave me 13,000 lbs which is what she weighed floating on her lines.


Calculators are redundant.



Brent Swain said:


> The calculations for the pipe Dream Sloop, a 36 is in the back of the book "Skenes Elements of Yacht Design, given at around 710 lbs. Interiors for most 36 footers needn't vary much from that , and if they go radically different , there is no predicting what it will be.


Another method of calcluating your costs when building a BrentBoat...and not smoking dope.



Brent Swain said:


> Reducing the number of feet of chine weld from 400 feet to 28 feet definitely reduces welding time. Alex paid $20 a month for the farm yard he built in. My methods don't require a shop. Very few of my boats have been built inside.


And more budget numbers...if you only had the phone number for that farmer. Otherwise, it will be quite a bit more expensive for you in the real world.



Brent Swain said:


> Being a twin keeler ,with much of my time drying out , paint doesn't last long on my keel bottoms, and they have been bare 99% of the last 29 years. Not much sign of any corrosion or pitting. Zincs keep her in good shape, welded on for guaranteed contact. I use stainless bolts for temporary contact, with stainless weld around the bolt holes, to guarantee stainless to stainless contact, til I can get a tack on. Otherwise, a bit of rust on the strap can insulate the zinc from the hull, making it useless. I used epoxy tar when I launched in 84. On m first haulout, in 2,000, I gave her a coat of Wasser tar with copper ablative paint over it. Since then I have tried epoxy with epoxy cop antifouling paint, wet on wet, which seems to work much better than ablative paint, and you can scrub it any time. I hope to do the whole hull underwater that way, when full pension rolls in.


You only need a bottom job every 40-50 years?



Brent Swain said:


> I started my steel boat April 12th 84, launched her May 12th 84, had her sailing by mid October 84,. and moved aboard.The second 36 I build was started February 4th 82 launched april 15th 82 , went for her first sail, May
> 24th 82 then headed for Mexico November the same year.
> Takes a lot of focus , but can be done, and has been many times.





Brent Swain said:


> Said by someone with zero hands on steel boat building experience,and zero experience in cruising in and maintaining a steel boat for any length of time. Not a reliable source of any info on steel boats


Just remember, Brent doesn't have the experience Clive has. And Clive disagrees with Brent. Who are you going to believe? More experienced customer or less experienced salesman?



Brent Swain said:


> Bob, a friend just bought one of your boats . Nice looking boat. Could you explain the logic in stanchions so short, that all they can hope to accomplish is to make sure you hit the water head first instead if feet first? If "yachtiness" prevails , they will have on high visibility yellow boots, to maker sure you can see their feet, when they are up to their necks in murky water.
> How very yotty!


Brent's stanchions are only 34" tall. That's still 2" below what's considered a safe handrail height around the world. So be careful on a BrentBoat.



Brent Swain said:


> Mild steel is 60,000 PSI tensile and compression strength . That is 11250 per linear inch for 3/16th plate. Multiply that by the 96 inches in the side of one of my twin keels. That is 1.08 million pounds per side, times four keels sides.
> How are you going to break that with a boat under 20,000 lbs?


So at the specific point of puncture (a hole in the hull which will kill you), you're saying that there is 4M pounds of protection? That's pretty damn safe.



Brent Swain said:


> My hulls are all single thickness, 1/8th for the decks cabin, etc, 3/16th for the hull ,1/4 for the keel sides, and half inch for the keel bottom ( with 4500 lbs of lead ballast poured on top)





Brent Swain said:


> The green, first time boatbuilder will get sailing a lot faster using my methods, than he ever will using any other methods, for a fraction the cost. That has been well proven, time and time again.
> I have never built a boat for anyone in the top 1% of income earners, but have built most for people in the bottom end of the income scale, people who could never have afforded a good steel boat any other way.


Does this mean don't build a BrentBoat unless he's willing to help you? And unless you're willing to stop drinking beer and getting baked?



Brent Swain said:


> He assumed he had pants to crap in, or he would not have been surprised when he could finally see he didn't have any. Believing he had pants to crap in, he crapped anyway, without trying to take them down, or he would have realized then, that he had none on.


I really don't know what to say on this one.



Brent Swain said:


> With origami boats you can whack her with a sledge hammer, as hard as you want, away from chines, without denting or damaging her in any way. The plate simply springs back with nothing hard to bend the plate against. It only dents if your whack her near a hard point, such as a chine . That is why my 36 footers have survived pounding on lee shores and coral, in big surf, with no hull dents. Had they been framed, they would have been severely dented between the frames.


Aren't we supposed to be _sailing_ our sailboats?



Brent Swain said:


> Long after the money has been spent , the satisfaction of having helped someone fulfill their dreams remains. Making money less relevant in one's life, enables one to do that far more often, without regard for money. Concentrate on helping people realize their dreams, and the money will take care of itself.


Whose money are we talking about here? Your $350? Or the BrentBoat builder's $50K plus?

More BS strength calculations:


Brent Swain said:


> Steel origami boat T- bones steel barge at hull speed . Zero damage. Steel origami boat pounds for 16 days in 8 to 12 ft surf with zero damage . Steel origami boat pounds across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef and is pulled off thru similar surf . Zero damage . Steel origami boat goes thru NW passage in one summer .Zero damage . Steel origami boat pounds thru a quarter mile of five inch ice . Zero damage.
> Fiberglass boat pounds in surf . Demolished in minutes. Results conclusive. No mathematical exhibitionism ( or fantasy) necessary!


No math necessary.



Brent Swain said:


> Another huge advantage of steel is you get to eliminate the heat exchanger, the salt water pump ,the thru hulls for cooling water, and the related plumbing. You get to eliminate the raw water strainer and any chance of your engines cooling system being plugged by sea weeds and marine growth. You simply turn a portion of your hull into a cooling tank. Aluminium works even better ,as it transfers heat as quickly as anything. One diesel mechanic, who works on yachts, was quoted as saying "If everyone went for keel cooling and dry exhaust, we mechanics would all be out of work."





Brent Swain said:


> Over 60% of marine diesel engine failures com Friends, who went thru two engines since 98, caused by condensation from a wet exhaust corroding the valves, have gone for a dry exhaust, as have many others I know, after serious engine damage caused by wet exhausts.
> I have been using a dry exhaust for nearly 40 years , no problems. Commercial boat operators laugh at the foolishness of yachties pumping sea water into their exhausts.





Brent Swain said:


> After years of sitting out in an open cockpit in the driving rain, I think a cruising boat without a pilot house is "masochistic insanity." It's also bad seamanship. Being exposed to the elements over time can cloud ones judgement. We call our boats "Pleasure Boats" and there is little pleasure in an open cockpit in bad weather.


Will you have to go through "years of sitting out in an open cockpit in the driving rain" before you understand the value of some kind of shelter (pilot house, bimini, foulies, umbrella, etc.)? I know experience trumps numbers - but really? Wouldn't it be easier to rely on those who actually know there are better ways to do things, like a second grader with an umbrella?



Brent Swain said:


> Any cruising boat designer strives to make his own designs the perfect boat based on his own experience ( or lack of it)and that of his clients, and their feedback over may years . That is what I have tried to do . So obviously, my 36 would be my first choice for a couple.


Wait - don't you singlehand?



Brent Swain said:


> "Around the World on Viski" by Don Shore is a hard book to put down, as is " No Fixed Address " By Clive Hammil. Altho older , "The Long Way " and "Cape Horn, the Logical Route" by Bernard Moitessier are also hard books to put down


They're expensive (if available at all) books to buy if you're trying to build a cruising kitty. I think you'd be much better off putting that money into your plastic boat.



Brent Swain said:


> You are not going to fall off a wave faster than hitting a steel barge at 6 knots, which my boats have done with impunity. My boat is 29 years old with her original paint job , in excellent shape.
> It takes a tiny amount of steel to make a rust streak, or a huge amount of rust. Seconds with muriatic acid eliminates them quickly.





Brent Swain said:


> Personal Attack removed per forum rules. Jeff_H SailNet moderator


Personal attack? Wait - didn't you read the letter on Latitude38? Isn't it fact that Brent is only banned by elitist forums who are trying to protect the yachting industry when he merely goes against the "status quo"? Seeing a pattern A.D.?



Brent Swain said:


> GRP Is not cheaper for a new boat. You couldnt build a GRP hull for anwhere near as cheaply as a steel boat. The last quote we got for the steel for a 36 this past winter was $9K. How much fibreglassing materials can you get for that much money? Not enough to build a 36 ft hull and deck, by any stretch of the imagination. The odds of dying in a GRP boat aground in surf are far greater than in a steel boat and exponentially greater in a mid ocean collision in GRP compared to steel.
> My boats have no problem pointing higher and sailing faster than many GRP cruising boats.
> The Pardys told me they have weeks of hard work getting their wooden boats back together after every ocean crossing , while mine take only an hour or less.


So cruiser, do you want to cruise or do you want to build?



Brent Swain said:


> All boats are unfinished at some point in their construction.


Okay.



Brent Swain said:


> I once had a dirty bottom and a windward bash a head of me, in a very small tide zone . Dragged a poly tarp under my boat ,let it float up against my hull, then poured a gallon of bleach down into it. By next morning all the weeds had fallen off. Fresh water ( including rain water) can do the same , over a longer time span.
> A Japanese friend said he had a friend who swore by ground wasabi in his antifouling.


Epoxy tar with wasabi. Got it.



Brent Swain said:


> Sure Bob. And what was the price tag on those boats and sails? Anything the average cruiser could afford? Anything under $35K? What was the draft? Anything practical for cruising? How big a crew do they require? Could they be handled by a couple? What were their annual maintenance costs? Did they have those bad seamanship, 24 inch high, extruded tinfoil stanchions?
> I have yet to hear of a single innovation by Bob,to deal with the biggest hurdle cruisers face, time and money. His approach seems to be elitism, discouragement and obstructionism..


Brent, you really should read Bob's book. I think you'll "hear of" many such innovations.



Brent Swain said:


> I do. Got my hand shaken and more compliments and invitations this summer than I can count. Anyone interested in steel boats, or simple cruising solutions in general , wants to pick my brain. Fortunately, living on a steel boat lets me sail away any time I choose.


More invitations than you can count? See the math skills above. As for potential customers interested in steel boats - check out the BS Yachts customer service commitment.



Brent Swain said:


> On my last trip from BC to Tonga and back ,I never took water from ashore, catching all I needed from my decks, and drinking water from my mainsail via lazy bag held up by lazy jacks. A plastic bucket under the front end with a 3/4 plastic thru hull and hose, leading to a plastic valve below decks, lets you fill your tanks without going on deck in the night. Washed my clothes and bod in sea water with dishwashing soap, no problem. Rinsed beans in sea water, no problem. Even soaked them in sea water, no problem . Added three cups of fresh for cooking, which left just the right amount of salt in them. Washed dishes in salt water , with only a brief rinse required afterwards, using very little fresh water.
> Didn't have my watermaker then. Now I have one, but no urge to go anywhere at the moment. Lots of the best water in the world here , free for the taking.





Brent Swain said:


> That was in the 80s. I wasn't around when he sandblasted, or foamed. If you didn't get a picture of your self taking a crap, it has never happened?
> Now that's analy retentive!
> How about every day of your sailing experience? Those you don't have pictures of ,have never happened ?
> Ya sure!





Brent Swain said:


> After 4 1/2 months of pounbing on an open ocean coral reef "Nuthin Wong" is off and floating with no leaks . Most of her gear has been returned or replaced. She has been cleaned up and repainted. Clive would sell her for $30K , then spend the money on a smaller origami boat.
> I have never claimed that an origami boat could survive any grounding, just that many have ( read 'Around the world on Viski" by Don Shore) making your odds of surviving such a grounding exponentially greater.


Will _your_ BS boat hold its value? Or will you have to sell it for scrap?



Brent Swain said:


> Mine survive , yours break up , or get lost at sea without a trace. Your suggestion that if you build a boat which wont survive a grounding, or collision , it will never happen, is super loonie. Shows an abysmal lack of hands on cruising experience.


Since we've only found evidence of maybe 10-12 BrentBoats out of the 200 you claim - I suppose we can conclude that the other 188 rusted through and were lost at sea without a trace?



Brent Swain said:


> Bob.
> You mentioned guy elsewhere on this site, who spent a fortune on a carbon fibre mast. After extensive cruising, he said the improvement was minimal, almost unnoticeable . What was the cost differential between the composite decks and the aluminiumn one? What was the price tag on the composite one?
> Aluminum has the advantage of letting you weld most of your deck hardware down, eliminating any chance of deck leaks. A USanian in a plastic boat, a week or so ago, told me he has to re-bed most of his deck hardware every few years, to stop them from leaking . He said the strictest adherence to the directions hasn't solved the recurring problem. Given that substantial weight savings high up in a mast has given minimal improvement , how would such savings much lower down, at deck level, be enough to justify the expense, and deck leaks ?
> This is the kind of blind worshipping of so called "High tech", which keeps so many boats in a marina for most of their lives, while the more practical, realistic and enlightened enjoy far emptier anchorages than would other wise be the case.
> I guess I should be thanking the pedlars of high tech, for keeping my favorite anchorages free from over crowding, by the gullible deciples of the "Consumerism " religion.


Gullible Disciples? Don't forget the dope smokers. Pot's expensive when you're paying retail!



Brent Swain said:


> To reduced maintenance ,start with clean steel . I get all my plate wheelabraded and primed with cold galvanizing primer, 87% zinc dry film by the steel supplier. My current boat was done that way and still has the 29 year old paint job, no problems. I gave mine 30 gallons of epoxy tar on a 31 ft boat, plus a coat of enamel every few years. Moitessier said the French navy puts ten coats of paint on before launching. The thicker the better. Most steel boat maintenance problems come from too thin a paint job, or painting over rust or mil scale. Spat foam is not adequate protection for the inside of a steel boat. Three or more coats of epoxy tar inside before spray foaming is needed.
> Flat well painted surfaces rarely chip. Corners are the main source of paint chipping. Trimming all outside corners with stainless reduces maintenance by roughly 80%. That is why I put stainless cabinside handrails on the edge of the cabinside, instead of inboard. It also makes things a bit safer .


See photos.



Brent Swain said:


> Bob. Ones ability to draw pretty pictures of boats has nothing to do with his experience, or total lack of hands on boat building experience ,or knowledge ,or hands on cruising experience. There are plenty of people who know absolutely nothing about boats, who can draw pretty pictures, and people who don't have an innovative, nor practical , experience based bone in their body, who can still draw pretty pictures of boats.
> My clients prefer practical building and cruising experience over picture drawing ctaftmanship, as you so eloquently put it.
> You say you have ctaftmanship?
> 
> Don't drink while posting.


See numbers above.



Brent Swain said:


> With a heavy material like steel, it is important to not duplicate parts making some irrelevant dead weight. I have seen some put a large number of gussets along the hull deck joint


See weight discussions above for this amusing turnabout.



Brent Swain said:


> Nor will your sniveling undo what I have accomplished.
> Why are we only dyslexic when typing?
> Dyslexics of the world, untie!


More mere "challenging of the status quo"?



Brent Swain said:


> If your impact was at the point where the collision bulkhead met the hull, the bulkhead would increase the odds of holing. If you can survive a hull speed collision with the sharp corner of a sunken barge with zero damage then the collision bulkhead would be redundant


Does this go back to the 4M pound strength of steel?

+++++++++Here is my first post on the blocks after I finally found the photos.++++++++++++++

Finally! I found those pics of the $2 blocks Brent was talking about:



> Make your own block and test it. It only takes 20 minutes and $2 worth of materials.
> 
> The cheeks of a sheet block can be easily jig sawed out of 3/16th aluminium scrap. Some use spacers which can be made out of pipe , on the becket end, to space them the same as the width of the sheave. I prefer to leave the two cheeks attached by a strip of 3/4 inch wide aluminium, then bend it 180 degrees to make the becket. These cheeks should be sanded very smooth and well rounded to eliminate chafe.
> Then it' s simply a matter of running a 3/8th ss bolt thru the sheave to make up the block.
> You can make up sheaves by running a hole saw thru a sheet of plastic , such as a cutting board. Micarta, salvaged from electrical panels makes even better sheaves which will last several lifetimes. Black plastic is far more UV resistance , if you can find it.
> After hole sawing it out, you put a carriage bolt thru it and put it in a drill chuck. Then you use a vise and machine the groove in it , using the drill like a lathe.
> You can use a spacer to make a double block, or put different sized sheaves in line, like the yachtie blocks.
> While I think bearings are a gimmick , if you insist , you can make the hole in the sheave a half inch wider than the bolt, then stack bits of 1/4 inch rod , made out of any material you like, around the pin and viola, roller bearings.
> I have made a single block this way, using only hand tools in 20 minutes, a far stronger and more reliable block than most of the super expensive "Yachtie " blocks people get conned out of large sums of money for. A billionaire can't buy a better block for any amount of money. It takes less time to build one than it takes to travel to the ship swindler and buy a block .
> Yet another of many examples of how building your own produces a far better product than the cheque book delivers.
> Last edited by Brent Swain; 10-17-2011 at 04:35 PM.





















I assume these are from his own boat - which starts to give some small indication of its condition. I guess we all have different measures of "perfection".

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



Brent Swain said:


> As you can see, they are in perfect condition, with zero wear or corrosion after 29 years , and many Pacific crossings. If you want "shiny" you can do it in minutes with a brillo pad on a grinder. That has never been a priority for me. I prefer to concentrate on structurally and functionally sound. I have no interest in impressing anyone but the practical.
> 
> Thanks for posting these Smack. They make my point.


I then offered to buy one of his blocks for $11 (half the price of the $22 Garhauer, and 500% more than his cost to make it) and test them both to destruction as he's laid out below in the next post. Still no luck.



Brent Swain said:


> A friend sailed to New Zealand and back, with stock "yachty" style blocks. They had black anodized aluminium cheeks with stainless straps over them. The corrosion between the SS and the aluminium swelled the cheeks tight against the sheaves, causing them to freeze solid, in such a brief, one year trip. That is the kind of perfectionism Smack advocates. As long as it has a brand name on it, it must be perfect. My blocks have had no problems in decades . That is my definition of perfection, not decorative priorities over reliability. I still see those failed blocks for sale in yachty stores ,for high prices, for those "knuckleheads "gullible enough to judge marine hardware by the price tag and it's decorativeness. I see some lewmar blocks with 1/4 inch stainless shackles with 1/4 inch pins, and flimsy plastic cheeks , for $40 each.
> How does the high price tag and brand name make plastic and tiny shackles stronger than the amount of metal holding my blocks together? How dose the tiny amount of stainless around the shackle pin get strengthened to more than the amount of aluminium in the beckets on my blocks, by adding a brand name and high price tag? They give the safe working load at 900 lbs, a fraction the strength of the half inch line going over it. I believe all blocks, cleats and mooring bitts should be stronger than the biggest line that will be used on them. That is simply good seamanship ( unlike what Smack advocates|)
> You can easily make a strength comparision between my blocks and commercially made blocks . Just tie a loop of rope around a tree and the other end to the becket of one. Then tie another loop of half inch Dacron around the two blocks and tie the other becket to the back bumper of a car, with lots of slack . Then get in the car and put the pedal to the metal, and see which one breaks first. If your theory holds, then you believe that mine will break first, and you will be out 20 minutes and $2. So why don't you try it? Because you know full well that your commercially made block wont stand a hope in hell!
> What is your theory on that? Or do you simply believe that mother nature is kinder, and more gentle, to materials which look like something out of a blister pack from a yachty store?
> Didn't know mother nature was that consumer biased .


I'm still waiting for my BrentBlock so I can do the test he lays out above. So far - he hasn't delivered.



Brent Swain said:


> You are absolutely right, plastic boats are much cheaper, if you are content to have nothing but apiece of plastic between you and any dangerous floating debris out there, nothing but a piece of plastic between you and sudden death for you and your crew( bad seamanship) Or if you are content with the leaky dampness of living Any steel boat designer can do a lot to reduce the time and money required , for anyone who doesn't want to risk his life, and that of his crew, in fragile plastic , and wishes to enjoy the hugely enhanced comfort and safety of a steel boat, by simply using my methods. I don't exactly keep them a dark trade secret. There is very little choice around here in used boats, for anyone wanting a good, affordable steel boat. Mine are usually the only show in town


I wonder why there's not more competition? Maybe there's no market?



Brent Swain said:


> Bob
> I spend as much time as I please, in a place where the consumer religious rich work all year to spend three weeks in. Then they all go home, to earn the money needed, to make payments on the kind of boats and gear you advocate, while I continue to cruise, enjoying all the now empty anchorages they have abandoned, to follow your advice. Been doing this since my mid 20's. Just spent the summer swimming, sailing in some good winds, fishing , eating ice cream and chicken burgers venison steak, wild plums and blackberries etc. etc., and sailing with some beautiful charming and intelligent young ladies, who keep coming back, year after year. Have nothing else on the agenda for the foreseeable future. Never had a bank debt . Never paid a penny of bank interest directly, in my life. I travel first class on space ship earth, in the best place on the planet, in the best time in human history. So don't get too concerned for my happiness. I wouldn't change places with anyone else on the planet; I envy no one!
> I do like to steer others toward the lifestyle I enjoy, and warn them about scammers trying to convince them that the pretentious "Yachty" ways, which keeps so many in debt, and tied to the dock , are their only option. I just have a low ," Just throw money at it " Bull****t threshold.
> This is not grumpy, just a form of chess.
> Checkmate!





Brent Swain said:


> Yes the big ones you show are stronger ,uglier , and useless on a 36. The difference between mine and the yachty kind is ounces, about the weight of a couple of loonies in your pocket, or the big mac some have for breakfast; insignificant, and irrelevant.


Wait - I thought stronger and heavier were better?



Brent Swain said:


> What will be the price tag? What I object to is the suggestion that one has to be rich, or should wait until they are rich before cruising. I enjoy giving the not so rich the option of enjoying just as good a boats, from a practical point, as the rich, and enjoying cruising as much or more, without going to all the trouble of getting rich ( and thus increasing their environmental foot print exponentially) .


See the price tag and time requirements above.



Brent Swain said:


> Do a search under Silas Crosby the first brentboat to round Cape Horn, now cruising SE Alaska. He gives his


A plastic Hunter 49, _Sequitur_, also rounded Cape Horn just fine. She didn't sink. No one perished.



Brent Swain said:


> I pulled Dale Deforest's hull," Exit" together in two days . The steel arrived Thursday afternoon, and by 11 pm Friday, the hull was together, the transom in, and the stringers and all the bulwark caps on. You couldn't get out of the starting gate ,using a fully framed method, in that time. Sure a first timer would take longer ,but a lot less time than using the fully framed method.


How _much_ longer will it take _you_? Isn't that something you'd like to know before investing in the BrentBoat dream?



Brent Swain said:


> There is no way you could get a boat like that to stay head to the wind. But I wouldn't be cruising in a boat with that kind of transom anyway.


Notice in the photo that the guy is beating to windward. Maybe just a staged shot?



Brent Swain said:


> A handy trick for entering a harbour at night, is to find a light beam shining on the water, from the direction you want to go. Follow the light beam and if there were anything between you and it ,it would show up clearly.


Should you take navigation tips from the guy whose boats always end up on rocks and reefs?



Brent Swain said:


> Bob
> Most of my steel hulls are as fair as any of yours, without the need for a drop of filler. Zero humps or bumps, Show me a fairer steel boat with zero filler. There are none.
> And you call me a liar? Where does that leave your credibility?


Photo evidence to the contrary coming soon (see ad below).



Brent Swain said:


> Ever been to Christmas Island? After the nuclear tests of the 50s, they left the lagoon full of all kinds of garbage , jeeps, bulldozers, scrap metal , etc. etc. Its a real junk pile. So are the beaches in the lagoon.


Is this part of the BS South Pacific Tour?



Brent Swain said:


> I use mostly 6011 for uphand and overhead and 7024 for horizontal downhand
> I use 316 stainless sticks for stainless and stainless to steel welding
> I grind edges to 45 for full penetration, where needed. The chine and centreline etc are already open.
> Flame spraying is an excellent way of eliminating paint job maintenance. I wrote extensively on this subject a few posts back.
> Tried sheet foam, and no matter how hard I tried to get a sealed vapour barrier in front of it, it kept things soaking wet behind them with condensation
> Sprayfoams is the only realistic long term solution I have found. Friends tried sheet foam and found it cost as much as spray foam by the time they were done, and a huge amount of work.
> A friend priced the foaming kits now available in Home Hardware. They look like a couple of propane bottles that you hook up to a mixing nozzle .He said they cost about half the cost of having a foamer come in, and are easy to use.
> One of my 36 footers caught fire in Frisco Bay .Dispite intense heat, the fire went only as far as where he had painted it with cheap latex paint. The fire would go no further. Couldnt get enough oxygen.
> I try to keep my welds short, to minimize distortion, more in some places than others.
> Any reasonably skilled amateur shouldn't have to hire anyone to build his boat. Used sails are far cheaper than the cost of materials, let alone time, so there are exceptions, but few.
> With my book and plans, and Alex's video many have been building their own boats, with no problems. The book is pretty dog eared by the time they are done, but they found the answers they needed there.
> I find my boats are easy to build right side up, and building one upside down would be a waste of time. Overhead welding is not that hard to learn, and I minimize it with my building methods. Integral tanks add a huge amount of structural strength to my boats, the tank top being a large horizontal, fully welded steel bulkhead, structurally. While that is irrelevant in my single keeler, it makes a good, very strong attachment point for my transverse keel webs, on my twin keelers. Without the tank top there, one would have to run the transverse supports to the centreline, making the centreline useless as as tankage. This would leave the only option for tankage, much higher up, raising the centre of gravity and reducing stability.
> 
> Thanks for finally asking real questions on this thread, to finally break the stream of adolescent drivel.


So who wants to build a BrentBoat?


----------



## bljones

bobperry said:


> Hmmmm:
> BLJ:
> That was a really weird rant and I'm just going to chalk it up to Friday night and I hope you are not driving.
> 
> But if you are, swing by here. I'm not doing anything.


Can I bring Brent?


----------



## smackdaddy

bljones said:


> Can I bring Brent?


Angry, old, and doesn't drink. Hmm. The DDT of chick repellant.

Good luck.


----------



## bobperry

Amazing Smackers.


----------



## smackdaddy

I consider it a public service announcement.


----------



## aeventyr60

Smack you betta get out on the water dude....too much ruminating on these things is bad for yer soul.


----------



## SloopJonB

Smack - did you put your life on hold or something? How many hours did that take you?


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Okay - the moment you've been waiting for. If one wants to discuss the con(s) of steel sailboats, one need look no further than this post.
> 
> What follows is the *BS Yachts Marketing Programme*. It is the pitch from the Head of BS Yachts' Sales Department: BS himself.
> 
> Feel free to substantiate, defend, dissect, question, mock, or chortle at any of the following claims about BrentBoats by Brent himself. This is the condensed version of Swaintology.
> 
> If you are his target market...that is someone who doesn't know a whole lot about boats or steelwork, doesn't have a huge budget (i.e. - more than $50K cash), and just wants to go cruising - this is for you. Feel free to click the blue arrows by Brent's name to see his post in context and see the responses to it.
> 
> The bottom line is this...you, the "99%-er cruising wannabe" (Brent's words), have three choices:
> 
> 1. Build your BrentBoat THEN go cruising with what you have left.
> 2. Buy a relatively expensive (compared to similar fiberglass boats) used BrentBoat that someone is trying to unload and go cruising immediately.
> 3. Buy a well-equipped, cruise-ready fiberglass boat for far less and go cruising immediately with more money in your pocket _(but, according to Brent, living with the daily panic of being struck down by aggressive Fukushima Debris, logs, reefs or rocks - or the annoyance of having to pay attention to where you're going)_.
> 
> Brent often conflates the idea of "design" with the idea of "building" (hence, the numbers vs. experience angle) - so watch out for that. BUT, if you DO want to build your own BrentBoat, here's what you can expect (from Brent's own customers):
> 
> 1. You'll likely spend a good deal more than $35K for a fully equipped BrentBoat. This is after you've already spent several hundred more for his plans, books and DVDs. (Oh and that's just for the boat - you'll need to factor in the costs of the build area, the expensive tools you'll need, the electronics you'll want to add, the utilities, etc.). So, let's up that figure to somewhere a good bit beyond $50K (the cruising budget we mentioned above).
> 2. You'll likely spend 3 years or more building this boat...before you can ever sail a single mile.
> 3. When Brent talks about how "perfect" his boat is after 30 years (i.e. - low maintenance requirements, dirt cheap equipment, etc.)...here's what he means by "perfect":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice the chipped paint, the rust, etc. And keep this in mind when you read through his maintenance claims below.
> 
> Now, an important sidenote as you review the BS Marketing Claims - this "Bob" character with whom Brent goes 'round is the rather legendary yacht designer, Robert Perry. Word is he's been kind of successful over the years and is somewhat respected by most sane people. Here's a hardcover book that outlines his 30+ year career:
> 
> Yacht Design According to Perry: My Boats and What Shaped Them: Robert Perry: 9780071465571: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51VN1eW-PXL
> 
> So, without further adieu...I give you The BS Yachts Marketing Programme, designed to convince you, good 99%er-Cruiser-Wannabe, to buy or build a BrentBoat. Make up your own mind about integrity, veracity, and credibility. Where will you put your money?
> 
> What about Vendee and VOR boats that have done a pretty good job of doing just this around the entire earth?
> 
> I had one of these C27s. We always had too much sail up - and she did indeed give us a heavy tiller. But that was when we had too much sail up.
> 
> If I recall he's talking about a large Beneteau here. Slight kick or shifting gear? Seems there would be a lot more sinkings than we've hear of it this were case.
> 
> This indeed is a miracle for any boat anywhere in the world. Impressive.
> 
> Keep reading.
> 
> You really should click the blue arrow by his name above and follow this argument he's having with Bob. It's quite entertaining. In a sailboat, if you roll past 180 degrees aren't you coming back up?
> 
> 
> In light of all the numbers vs. experience arguments, this is one of my all time favorites.
> 
> To Bob:
> 
> False.
> 
> Pay attention to these gear numbers and claims as it plays out below.
> 
> As you can see in this thread, I've offered to pay Brent $11+shipping for one of his $2 blocks so I can test it against a Garhauer (the test being exactly like he lays out below). He hasn't come through. But i'll keep trying.
> 
> I totally agree with this statement - which is why I don't think steel boats are the way to go for someone who "go sailing simply". Just my opinion.
> 
> Brent acknowledging his skewed math on the 183 debate after Bob kindly points out the flaws.
> 
> See above.
> 
> This was his post in a thread by someone who was proudly showing off their new Beneteau.
> 
> Bob's not familiar with this boat he supposedly designed. Brent can offer no evidence.
> 
> Many of the BrentBoats you'll see in photographs have battens. Do his own customers listen to him?
> 
> Put this in your maintenance spreadsheet - then look at the other maintenance claims below, coupled with the photos of what to expect with this level of maintenance.
> 
> Nobody wants to be a gullible mass. But seriously?
> 
> I've been on lots of Beneteaus. His friend is wrong.
> 
> Bob has no record of this boat. Brent can provide no evidence. See a trend?
> 
> Same as the above claim, but now with 12 fewer thru-hulls.
> 
> Most of the BS boats I've come across are for sale.
> 
> *This is a very important point. And this is why it's so critical to understand where every penny of your cruising budget will go if you get into a BrentBoat. Yet, this is virtually impossible as there are no real numbers.*
> 
> So I suppose what he's saying here is that he'll help you through the easy stuff for the first few days - then you're on your own when it gets hard?
> 
> See photos above.
> 
> Disregard all modern rudder design and engineering.
> 
> At the same time, he says safe navigation is not all that important below. So which is it?
> 
> Hmm.
> 
> I guess you need to decide what's more important to you...cruising or body armor.
> 
> Thanks for the fart, Brent.
> 
> See photos above to see what "good as the day I put it in" can mean.
> 
> This is a very, very good price for windvane steering. The question is, can YOU do it?
> 
> We're now at $300/year for total cost of ownership. How does that match up with the other claims?
> 
> This is to that guy Bob.
> 
> See photos for the meaning of "immaculate".
> 
> I'm still waiting on the block.
> 
> Do you really want a boat with "zero weather helm"? Follow this post for Bob's questions about this.
> 
> 27 years for sheets. Conflicts with his halyard claims. And again, nothing breaks on his boat...a miracle in the boating world.
> 
> He gets his satisfaction out of helping the low income cruiser. Yet he won't tell you what it will really cost (even a hypothetical high-end that you could find ways to back off of) for you to get cruising? Why?
> 
> At least we start to get some vague idea of cost. Fiberglass boats are undoubtedly the cheapest, fastest way to get out there and cruise. If, however, you ARE one who likes to hit the odd rock, log or shipping container at night - you really should try to get some accurate time a cost estimates to see what you're getting into.
> 
> It sounds like these boats are only meant for cold water sailing. I like flip-flops, but you might prefer ugs.
> 
> See photos.
> 
> Make sure your build site is near a scrapyard with boat stuff.
> 
> Starting to get some general idea of cost. But very little.
> 
> The boat on the Fijian reef that he is claiming as "Mine" - Nothin' Wong - he reverses himself and says is NOT his below when talking about Clive, the owner. Maybe part of this is the design vs. construction argument. But you wouldn't know it unless you were paying close attention to what he says. The Sleavin family remark, is, well, unfortunate.
> 
> Though these figures weren't quite accurate - it does at least give us a number to work off of.
> 
> This is the BS version of seamanship. It's a rare discipline.
> 
> 200 might have been started - but there seem that there are very, very few of them out there actually cruising.
> 
> This is important when you're figuring costs. If you want to be below that $50K-plus total, you'll need to hit the dumpsters, and surplus shops, and try to score lots of free stuff. This, of course, will affect the time side of your plan (adding perhaps a few additional years before you can sail), but you WILL save money.
> 
> I guess he's telling you, interested customer, that budgets don't matter? You'll be fine as long as you're not stupid enough to pay retail? What do you think? And before you answer, remember he doesn't want you to be a gullible mass and just believe what the yacht designers and builders of today simply tell you.
> 
> You need to decide if you can do this on your boat.
> 
> I'm still waiting for one of his block so I can go all NASA on it.
> 
> Yes...the blocks.
> 
> Nothing on the Don Shore book. $20 for the Len Sherman book (10 times more than a BrentBlock). Ans as for "No Fixed Address"by Clive Hamman, $10 - and this is the guy Brent called a drunk? I'd rather have the block and save for cruising.
> 
> Compare with above and below. See photos.
> 
> False.
> 
> A yacht designer doing extensive, real life testing.
> 
> It appears that Clive Hamman has more cruising experience than Brent - and disagrees with Brent's maintenance claims.
> 
> Still trying to figure out the actual time and money requirements (worst-case) for one of Brent's boats. So far he's ignoring the question.
> 
> Sounds like you should buy a fiberglass boat first, go cruising and have fun. Then if you get scared of Fukushima Debris and want to hit some reefs, rocks, and logs, you should sell the plastic boat and build one of Brent's. I think that's reasonable.
> 
> Hull and decks should cost $9K and take a week to get done. Can you do it for that?
> 
> Now THIS one is COMPLETELY bogus!
> 
> $350 for plans, $54 for DVDs, $20 for the book, and the odd wife-beater beating for free. Is that $424 well spent in getting you toward your cruising goal? If not, at least some cops were fired and wife-beaters beat.
> 
> It is true that the market for steel boats seems incredibly small.
> 
> More conversation with highly respected designer.
> 
> More on the Sleavins.
> Tragedy Ends Family's Sailing Adventure : Accident: Their yacht is hit off New Zealand. The Santa Clarita woman is saved but husband, children are lost at sea. - Los Angeles Times
> I think it's pretty poor taste to claim something like this.
> 
> +++++++++++++Brent claims Jeff_H said something idiotic, when it was actually Brent that said it.++++++++++
> 
> Now THAT I agree with, Brent. Who on earth would even conceive the preposterous idea of using wood for a gun barrel? Ludicrous!
> 
> Oh, yeah, it was you.
> 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> See above numbers (only derived by customer accounts, not from the actual designer/builder) then re-read this post. $34K for designs from a world-renown designer, or $424-plus-~$35K and several years. Either way, you're still not in the water.
> 
> See above about screwing. Also, I've offered him $33/hr for the blocks. No luck yet.
> 
> How you make a few extra bucks around the dojo is no business of ours.
> 
> The Sleavins again. Along with the Fukushima Debris, are you seeing the marketing angle here? What is the main reason to buy/build a BrentBoat?
> 
> False.
> 
> Definitely one of BS's most outlandish claims.
> 
> I think the answer to the 99%-er cruiser wannabe should be pretty clear by now.
> 
> See numbers above and below. Who getting screwed?
> 
> Is it $9K or $3500? We keep going back and forth.
> 
> Yet you have "air-tight" hatches and ports? I will grant Brent that bolted down stuff on fiberglass does typically require work every 5-10 years...maybe less if it's being sailed full time. But I don't know many people who lose sleep over this. It's not that big of a deal.
> 
> Again, this is great advice as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> If these boats are rare, how does that square with the 200 boats built claim above? I guess you can see why Brent has no competition as he claimed earlier.
> 
> Note that Brent now says he didn't design Clive's boat - yet this is one of the main examples he uses for how strong "his boats" are.
> Which is it?
> 
> Bob Perry: $34,000. Brent Swain: $30,424 (see site, tools, equipment, utilities, etc. below). NOW you're ready to start building the boat you chose.
> 
> Clive mentions on his website that maintaining a steel boat is time consuming and very expensive. And his boat is a craphole.
> 
> Remember, Clive has as much or more cruising experience in a steel boat than Brent does. Who are you going to believe?
> 
> Brent implies a customer is lying on his blog.
> 
> These figures are 30 years old or so. They have absolutely no relevance to today...unless you think you can do this too.
> 
> Can you meet this schedule for your own BrentBoat? If not, why?
> 
> If you didn't finish your BrentBoat - are you stupid, a dope smoker, or a drunk?
> 
> Your first 3 steps: find a build site, spends thousands on materials, and "acquire tools"...cost: tens of thousands...plus $350 for the plans, $54 for the DVS, and $20 for the book. I'd say the total to this point is easily nearing the $34K you'd pay Bob Perry for a set of plans...and you STILL haven't even STARTED your BrentBoat yet. (See "screwing the cruiser" above.)
> 
> How many BrentBoaters have finished their boat with this budget? Did any of you care about a budget beforehand? (See above.)
> 
> Another run at the cost and schedule you can expect when you build your BrentBoat:
> 
> That $346 if you're counting. Maybe you can start your budget spreadsheet with these figures?
> 
> Now he's backtracking on calling his customer a liar. That's good.
> 
> Yes. Such crap must be challenged.
> 
> RKJ won the race. Moitissier went crazy. Clear lesson: Steel boats drive people insane and make them losers?
> 
> This is the way Brent refuses to post a weight study for his design. It's Steve's writing that's the problem.
> 
> Make sure to weigh how much you like your pot and booze before becoming one of Brent's object lessons. And if you're short on money and want more cruising time (see "cheap fiberglass boats" above).
> 
> Then why is Brent checking his interior hull under the foam?
> 
> Can you meet this timeline and budget? Is that really what it will take you to do it?
> 
> Brent is temporarily banned for insulting Bob Perry's wife...'
> 
> This definitely doesn't square with A.D.'s letter on Latitude 38 when he claims:
> 
> This had nothing to do with status quo or greed. Sailors don't insult other sailors' family. Ever. Yet Brent does , and is banned for it - and you defend him by blaming the forum?
> 
> I apologize for insulting a sailor's wife by calling her fat and ugly. But it's his fault for making me do it.
> 
> This is the engineering method used on BrentBoats.
> 
> Calculators are redundant.
> 
> Another method of calcluating your costs when building a BrentBoat...and not smoking dope.
> 
> And more budget numbers...if you only had the number for that farmer. Otherwise, it will be quite a bit more expensive for you in the real world.
> 
> You only need a bottom job every 40-50 years?
> 
> Just remember, Brent doesn't have the experience Clive has. And Clive disagrees with Brent. What are you going to believe? Customer or salesman?
> 
> Brent's stanchions are only 34" tall. That's 2" below what's considered a safe handrail height around the world. So be careful on a BrentBoat.
> 
> So at the specific point of puncture (a hole in the hull which will kill you), you're saying that there is 4M pounds of protection? That's pretty damn safe.
> 
> Does this mean don't build a BrentBoat unless he's willing to help you? And unless you're willing to stop drinking beer and getting baked?
> 
> I really don't know what to say on this one.
> 
> Aren't we supposed to be _sailing_ our sailboats?
> 
> Whose money are we talking about here? Your $350? Or the BrentBoat builder's $50K plus?
> 
> More BS strength calculations:
> 
> No math necessary.
> 
> Will you have to go through "years of sitting out in an open cockpit in the driving rain" before you understand the value of some kind of shelter (pilot house, bimini, etc.)? I know experience trumps numbers - but really? Wouldn't it be easier to rely on those who actually know there are better ways to do things?
> 
> Wait - don't you singlehand?
> 
> They're expensive (if available at all) books to buy if you're trying to build a cruising kitty. I think you'd be much better off putting that money into your boat.
> 
> Personal attack? Wait - didn't you read Lat38? Isn't it fact that Brent is only banned by elitist forums who are trying to protect the yachting industry when he merely goes against the "status quo"? Seeing a pattern A.D.?
> 
> So cruiser, do you want to cruise or do you want to build?
> 
> Okay.
> 
> Epoxy tar with wasabi. Got it.
> 
> Brent, you really should read Bob's book. I think you'll "hear of" many such innovations.
> 
> More invitations than you can count? See the math skills above. As for potential customers interested in steel boats - check out the BS Yachts customer service commitment.
> 
> Will _your_ BS boat hold its value? Or will you have to sell it for scrap?
> 
> Since we've only found evidence of maybe 10-12 BrentBoats out of the 200 you claim - I suppose we can conclude that the other 188 rusted through and were lost at sea without a trace?
> 
> Gullible Disciples? Don't forget the dope smokers. Pot's expensive!
> 
> See photos.
> 
> See numbers above.
> 
> See weight discussions above for this amusing turnabout.
> 
> More mere "challenging of the status quo"?
> 
> Does this go back to the 4M pound strength of steel?
> 
> +++++++++Here is my first post on the blocks after I finally found the photos.++++++++++++++
> Finally! I found those pics of the $2 blocks Brent was talking about:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I assume these are from his own boat - which starts to give some small indication of its condition. I guess we all have different measures of "perfection".
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> I then offered to buy one of his blocks for $11 (half the price of the $22 Garhauer, and 500% more than his cost to make it) and test them both to destruction as he's laid out (tying them to a tree and cranking on them with truck). Still no luck.
> 
> I'm still waiting for my BrentBlock so I can do the test he lays out above. So far - he hasn't delivered.
> 
> I wonder why there's not more competition? Maybe there's no market?
> 
> Wait - I thought stronger and heavier were better?
> 
> See the price tag and time requirements above.
> 
> A plastic Hunter 49, Sequitur, also rounded Cape Horn just fine. She didn't sink. No one perished.
> 
> How _much_ longer will it take you? Is that something you'd like to know before investing in the BrentBoat dream?
> 
> Notice in the photo that the guy is beating to windward. Maybe just a staged shot?
> 
> Should you take navigation tips from the guy whose boats always end up on rocks and reefs?
> 
> Photo evidence to the contrary coming soon.
> 
> Is this part of the BS South Pacific Tour?
> 
> Wow. That's a ton of hands on, experience based information from me, and only adolescent smart ass sarcasm from you, with absolutely noting useful or constructive from you. I don't see any rust in those photos,. So where does that leave your credibility. You asked for photos of my 29 year old paint job. You posted them, showing zero rust or corrosion.
> Sure a paint job would look far better if my boat were a marina queen like most of Bobs rarely leaving the dock except for a two week summer vacation and the odd weekend cruise. Then back to work to pay for it all.
> Those guys have all headed back to work from here leaving paradise free and empty for those of us who live more resourcefully .
> I am a demonstration of how freely one can cruise, semi retired since my mid 20s, by following my own advice.
> So if you DON'T want to have the same degree of freedom, then you definitely DON'T want to follow my way of doing things.
> So tell us smack . How much full time cruising have you done since your mid 20s?
> 
> You say your way can accomplish more? Your life disproves it!.
> I stand by the posts I have made above
> The Bob Perry design my friend bought has 24 inch high stanchions


----------



## bobperry

"The Bob Perry design my friend bought has 24 inch high stanchions "

Well hell, that will never do. Too heavy. I recommend they be cut down to 23.5".

Are you talking about the Passport 47?

Brent, your facts are always dubious at best. Again you fabricate your facts. I understand that it must piss you off to no end that your buddy bought a Perry design. There it is, a beautiful, fine sailing boat, rubbed in your face. But never mind. Are you trying to tell me that every detail on every one of your boats is exactly how you "designed" it? That is absurd. On some of my boats details like stanchion height are the call of the builder and despite what I may draw and what I may spec, the builder will use his in stock stanchions. Welcome to the real world of yacht design. But you will never work with a production builder so you would never know. You are far too good for the world of production boats. You have told us such many times. Of course no production builder would think of hiring you as a designer so I guess it all falls together in the end.

Of course I suppose I could have spec'd the solid pipe 30" "fence" around the entire boat. That is a lovely detail, very yacht like.


----------



## jak3b

My sheep hop right over a 24 inch lifelines.


----------



## smackdaddy

aeventyr60 said:


> Smack you betta get out on the water dude....too much ruminating on these things is bad for yer soul.


You're right. We'll be on Dawn Treader next weekend.

When I get motivated by something - I do it up right. Brent really motivated me.

I think my above post takes care of what's been so elusive about the BS claims for so long - seeing them all together as one storyline. If a person interested in steel boats takes the time to read through his posts in my post above, it's very, very clear that there are some _serious_ questions regarding his claims. From there, they can decide what they want to do with their money and time.

So, I'll likely keep thumping Brent every once in a while for the fun of it. But I've more than proven my point.

Now where is that Fukushima Debris?


----------



## blt2ski

smackdaddy said:


> ................
> 
> So, I'll likely keep thumping Brent every once in a while for the fun of it. But I've more than proven my point.
> 
> Now where is that Fukushima Debris?


At out front door on the left coast of NA. Been a few things showing up. Fiberglass boats, concrete pontoons, a BIG steel hulk that was ready to be cut up. A upper teen foot fiberglass bayliner out board style........glass floats, other debris.......

Marty


----------



## bobperry

I keep waiting for a sushi restaurant to wash up.
Sushi is hard to find up here on the Res.


----------



## jak3b

Homesick Sushi,on the high seas wrecking plastic boats since 2011


----------



## smackdaddy

blt2ski said:


> At out front door on the left coast of NA. Been a few things showing up. Fiberglass boats, concrete pontoons, a BIG steel hulk that was ready to be cut up. A upper teen foot fiberglass bayliner out board style........glass floats, other debris.......
> 
> Marty


How has it not destroyed your fragile plastic boat yet? You must not leave the dock.


----------



## blt2ski

I've been using that bayliner I rescued from Japan as a sailboat! Helped it abit with a steel keel, steel mast, a few steel ribs...........

Great little boat from over yonder! now if I could make it ALL steel..........yep....yasiree......

oh, 21 days smack. You coming up for FWB?!?!?!?!?


----------



## bljones

Brent Swain said:


> Wow. That's a ton of hands on, experience based information from me, and only adolescent smart ass sarcasm from you, with absolutely noting useful or constructive from you. I don't see any rust in those photos,. So where does that leave your credibility. You asked for photos of my 29 year old paint job. You posted them, showing zero rust or corrosion.
> Sure a paint job would look far better if my boat were a marina queen like most of Bobs rarely leaving the dock except for a two week summer vacation and the odd weekend cruise. Then back to work to pay for it all.
> Those guys have all headed back to work from here leaving paradise free and empty for those of us who live more resourcefully .
> I am a demonstration of how freely one can cruise, semi retired since my mid 20s, by following my own advice.
> So if you DON'T want to have the same degree of freedom, then you definitely DON'T want to follow my way of doing things.
> So tell us smack . How much full time cruising have you done since your mid 20s?
> 
> You say your way can accomplish more? Your life disproves it!.
> I stand by the posts I have made above
> The Bob Perry design my friend bought has 24 inch high stanchions










Okay dude, from this point, you're on your own. Quit $hitting on the low-buck carpet, mmmkay?


----------



## NCC320

Brent,

You made the following statement:

"a marina queen like most of Bobs rarely leaving the dock except for a two week summer vacation and the odd weekend cruise. Then back to work to pay for it all.
Those guys have all headed back to work from here leaving paradise free and empty for those of us who live more resourcefully .
I am a demonstration of how freely one can cruise, semi retired since my mid 20s, by following my own advice".................

Just suppose, all those guys owning marina queens, with occasional crusing vacation, and then back to work, chose for themselves the life style that they have, just as you have yours. I'm just guessing that most of them wouldn't give up their life style for one like yours. And, it could be that their chosen life style gives them lots of rewards that yours can't provide.

There is more than one way to live a successful, rewarding life. Most people select a route different than you have chosen. Yours may be fine for you, but it's not, nor should it be everyone's choice.


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> Sure a paint job would look far better if my boat were a marina queen like most of Bobs rarely leaving the dock except for a two week summer vacation and the odd weekend cruise.


Marina Queens??

Brent your not getting it. *There are more people cruising the world on Bob's boats than your boats. * That is indisputable fact. *Bob's boat's have been voted/reviewed and agreed to be the best in the world*. This is indisputable fact. Yet you continue to spout dog ****e on here that is just wrong.



Brent Swain said:


> I am a demonstration of how freely one can cruise, semi retired since my mid 20s, by following my own advice.
> So if you DON'T want to have the same degree of freedom, then you definitely DON'T want to follow my way of doing things.
> So tell us smack . How much full time cruising have you done since your mid 20s?


Brent your a demonstation of how one can hit alot of reefs in ugly boats that is all. You paint yourself as the cruiser's crusader. *Your not.*

I am also a cruiser mate, I semiretired a couple of years ago at 31, I haven't done as many nautical miles as you but I haven't hit any reefs yet either, I cruise on a budget as well, this does mean everything isn't shiny and new, yet I still don't feel the need to attack or preach to others who are doing things differently to us.

I think that is what cruising is kinda about, meeting people from different walks, different means, different cultures and it not mattering at all.


----------



## bobperry

320:
Nicely put but I feel it falls on deaf ears and a very closed mind.
Not to worry. I understood.

Chall:
You sound like my kind of guy. You meet a guy cruising in his boat and you don't judge. You just admire that both of you enjoy doing the same thing and facing the same challenges.

Not sure why this is hard to grasp for some. Life is not that complicated.


----------



## bljones

Y'know, having said all of this, it ain't all a Bob or Brent kinda world.
Get out there. Make like Nike, and "Just do it." If that means you call up Bob and commission a new design and cut a big-ass cheque, cool- more power to you. if that means that you clear a corner of your drive shed and order up some sheet and a crapload of rod for your welder and go to town- more power to you.

Or if that means you find a boat that suits you, does what you need when you need it and fits your refit fitness, then... more power to you.

But do something. 
Life ain't waiting.


----------



## AlaskaMC

bljones said:


> Y'know, having said all of this, it ain't all a Bob or Brent kinda world.
> Get out there. Make like Nike, and "Just do it." If that means you call up Bob and commission a new design and cut a big-ass cheque, cool- more power to you. if that means that you clear a corner of your drive shed and order up some sheet and a crapload of rod for your welder and go to town- more power to you.
> 
> Or if that means you find a boat that suits you, does what you need when you need it and fits your refit fitness, then... more power to you.
> 
> But do something.
> Life ain't waiting.


Great point. The OP (remember way back?) was one of those that had already been out there doing it and was curious for practical reasons about steel which he had no experience. Brent Swain was a great proponent for its advantages but has been killing his own argument by attacking literally all that do not agree completely with his opinion. Getting into it with Bob just takes it into the land of ridiculous.  It seems like someone going after Les Paul for not having enough experience with guitars.

It is starting to look like a certain anchor thread from way back that involved another individual that drew fire on themselves by having a similar attitude about their products vs everyone else. Sadly it really is a great subject.

Smack, that post has to be one of the best quote collections I have ever seen. Incredible. Be careful or you will end up the sailnet historian.


----------



## chall03

bljones said:


> Y'know, having said all of this, it ain't all a Bob or Brent kinda world.
> Get out there. Make like Nike, and "Just do it." If that means you call up Bob and commission a new design and cut a big-ass cheque, cool- more power to you. if that means that you clear a corner of your drive shed and order up some sheet and a crapload of rod for your welder and go to town- more power to you.
> 
> Or if that means you find a boat that suits you, does what you need when you need it and fits your refit fitness, then... more power to you.
> 
> But do something.
> Life ain't waiting.


Well said.

In reality I actually probably cruise more like Brent. In philosophy though it appears we are quite different.

There is truth in what Brent says, if you want to go cruising around the Pacific in your 20's then you probably will not be commissioning Bob Perry to design you a custom boat.

The difference is that I doubt Bob would care. I am fairly sure he would not expect that you MUST do it in one of his boats. Brent does demand this, Swainology states that if you do not build one of his boats you face certain peril.

I object only to the narrow minded, fanatical lengths he takes his approach. I also object( like you alluded BJ ) to him self appointing himself as the poster child for cost conscious cruising.


----------



## JomsViking

Why this ever became a comparison/dogfight between cost conscious cruising and new custom designs from Bob Perry is beyond me. It was about the advantages of steel, and then BS claimed that his was the cheapest way to go cruising - although he later admitted that GRP was cheaper.

So to summarize.

If you want to be a cost conscious cruiser now, go in a proven GRP boat (and if You're in North America you'd do well to pick a Perry design, however You'd be hard pressed to find one in Europe).
If you have the Money get a custom designed boat (Again Bob would probably be a great choice)
If you're in between the two scenarios, and have the time. money, and inclination to build yourself, go for a BS design that by the very nature of the material/build/design will be less of a sailing machine than the above.

Another Family that barely survived their World cruise: The Yacht » Gunvør XL
They did the World ARC (which I wouldn't have), they had the Money to do it in an expensive boat (which I don't), and in a fast boat (which I think is a great choice) so horses for courses.


----------



## bobperry

Exactly!
I don't give a rat's patootey what you sail. I am glad as hell that it isn't a "Bob or Brent" world. That would be very boring. I am good friends with lots of other designers. We all have our niche and we respect each other's work. When we get together we give each other a hard time for the fun of it but there is that layer of respect that joins us as a group. Can't see BS fitting into that group with his exclusionary and narrow attitudes.


----------



## chall03

JomsViking said:


> Why this ever became a comparison/dogfight between cost conscious cruising and new custom designs from Bob Perry is beyond me. It was about the advantages of steel, and then BS claimed that his was the cheapest way to go cruising - although he later admitted that GRP was cheaper.
> 
> So to summarize.
> 
> If you want to be a cost conscious cruiser now, go in a proven GRP boat (and if You're in North America you'd do well to pick a Perry design, however You'd be hard pressed to find one in Europe).
> If you have the Money get a custom designed boat (Again Bob would probably be a great choice)
> If you're in between the two scenarios, and have the time. money, and inclination to build yourself, go for a BS design that by the very nature of the material/build/design will be less of a sailing machine than the above.
> 
> Another Family that barely survived their World cruise: The Yacht » Gunvør XL
> They did the World ARC (which I wouldn't have), they had the Money to do it in an expensive boat (which I don't), and in a fast boat (which I think is a great choice) so horses for courses.


Good summary!

I would add the following...

- If your in the in between, and you like the idea of steel, have looked at aluminium and dismissed it for reasons probably to do with cost, and you want to build yourself, then Brent Swain is one of several options, I would suggest that there are designs in steel that offer the advantages of the material with better performance.

I would look at

Van De Stadt Yacht Designs

Graham Radford designs

Grahame Shannon

Dudley Dix Designs

Bruce Roberts


----------



## bobperry

Joms:
I wasn't going to sit here and just let BS trash the world of boats that I love and have provided me with a good living for almost 40 years. I chose to counter the BS and total fabrication of facts from Brent and represent the other side. Maybe that's why it becamse a "dog fight".


----------



## JomsViking

Bob you contributed positively and provided a lot of great info, but we all got in a fight with Brent, even those of us that know and respects steel.
So don't take my ramblings as anything else 

My problem is that Brent most likely could be a great contributor IF he changed his ways.

/Joms



bobperry said:


> Joms:
> I wasn't going to sit here and just let BS trash the world of boats that I love and have provided me with a good living for almost 40 years. I chose to counter the BS and total fabrication of facts from Brent and represent the other side. Maybe that's why it becamse a "dog fight".


----------



## chall03

JomsViking said:


> Bob you contributed positively and provided a lot of great info, but we all got in a fight with Brent, even those of us that know and respects steel.
> So don't take my ramblings as anything else
> 
> My problem is that Brent most likely could be a great contributor IF he changed his ways.
> 
> /Joms


+1

Basically having Bob refute Brent's crap with facts and truth blew his little world to pieces and the best he could do was to start insulting Bob's wife.

There are plenty of us that understand steel, like steel, have modest boats that we do sail on a budget (so are NOT armchair sailors despite Brent's insults to the contrary) yet we strongly disagree with Brent's stand on this.

You would think that would give Brent a hint.

I would personally love to hear more about his first adventure out into the Pacific in his twenties.

I would love to even here about his boats if he could do so without attacking...

- Fibreglass
- Any and all other steel boat designers
- Any and all all other Aluminium boat designers & builders
- Bob Perry
- Bob Perry's wife
- Beneteau/Hunter/Catalina
- Block manufacturers
- West Marine ( actually anyone who sells any marine related product)
- People who paint their boats
- Smack( actually ok it's fine to swipe Smack occasionally) 
- Sailnet Mods
- Any and all other sailing forums he has participated on
- His own clients
- Bob's clients
- People who use Marinas rather than paddocks
- People who like to snorkel reefs rather than hit them
- Anyone who didn't decide to go cruising in their 20's


----------



## bobperry

Oh yeah, I forgot about the attack on my wife. That was a really low point Brent's "argument".

I'm not sure why there is an "argument".

I have been fortunate to have been the technical editor for SAILING magazine for the past 35 years. It's a funny story how I got the job but I have enjoyed it a lot. Each month I get to study three or four new designs from other designers. This has been a tremendous help to me in my own design work. I am constantly exposed to what's new and different in the world of yacht design. It's fun and eye opening at times.

My point being, I have no problem at all with the work of others if I think it is quality work regardless of the genre or the material. But when presented with shoddy design work I tell my editor, rather than review and trash the design, "No thanks, I won't review that design."

So, I say to anyone who thinks I have a narrow view of the world of yacht design , " You have not been paying attention." If you still doubt what I am saying you can buy volumes one through five of my reviews from SAILING magazine. There you can find many years of me having fun looking at the work of other designers.

I am not exclusionary. I am not an elitist. I'm just a guy who loves boats of all kinds.

Here is a link to a ferro cement boat I designed when I was 26 years old. My second design that was built. It's still going strong today and to my eye looking pretty darn handsome. Not bad work for a kid.

Taken from CA:
Is it true. "Custom Ferro-Cement Ketch (Robert Perry design),"

http://www.yachtworl...da#.UjSwMmTF1vY


----------



## kimbottles

I joined this thread just a couple weeks ago, so I was not aware that Brent attacked Bob's wife. That pretty much says it all for me about Brent.

I personally know Bob's wife very well, she is a lovely wonderful person. My wife and I are very very fond of her. 

I can not imagine any rational reason to attack her.


----------



## blt2ski

kimbottles said:


> I joined this thread just a couple weeks ago, so I was not aware that Brent attacked Bob's wife. That pretty much says it all for me about Brent.
> 
> I personally know Bob's wife very well, she is a lovely wonderful person. My wife and I are very very fond of her.
> 
> I can not imagine any rational reason to attack her.


Then again, most husbands choose the correct spouse, not sure why the wives choose us?!?! that includes mr bp's spouse! or mine, or td's or..............


----------



## bobperry

Kim:
Brent has never met my wife. I don't post photos of her so he can't know what she looks like. But he was and remains desperate and that was the best he could do.

I was inclined to come back with my own Witty and erudite, "Your mother wears combat boots" but I though better of it.

Thunder! I like it.


----------



## PCP

chall03 said:


> Good summary!
> 
> I would add the following...
> 
> - If your in the in between, and you like the idea of steel, have looked at aluminium and dismissed it for reasons probably to do with cost, and you want to build yourself, then Brent Swain is one of several options, I would suggest that there are designs in steel that offer the advantages of the material with better performance.
> 
> I would look at
> 
> Van De Stadt Yacht Designs
> 
> Graham Radford designs
> 
> Grahame Shannon
> 
> Dudley Dix Designs
> 
> Bruce Roberts


You could join to the list a lot of designers with many steel boats designs, Holland has several as well as France but to be fair I don't know any that has boats as simple to build (and therefore cheaper) than the ones from Bruce Swain.

Of course if we talk of performanmce....that is another story but if the performance is important I think aluminum is a better material. It is not by accident that in Europe you cannot find a single steel production boat builder (some decades ago there were several) and many production aluminum boats.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

"It is not by accident that in Europe you cannot find a single steel production boat builder (some decades ago there were several) and many production aluminum boats."

Very good point Paulo.

For the list of steel boat designers I'd add Yves-Marie Tanton. He is very good and really understands performance and has designed for all materials. On top of that he is a decent fellow.


----------



## smackdaddy

AlaskaMC said:


> Smack, that post has to be one of the best quote collections I have ever seen. Incredible. Be careful or you will end up the sailnet historian.


Heh-heh. No freakin' way.

After reading Brent's posts on several forums now (and actually supporting him in the past), I just wanted to make sure there was _one single place_ one could link to to show Brent's true colors to a wannabe cruiser who might have an interest in a steel boat. That's exactly what that post is. You can know pretty much everything you need to know by reading it through (at least enough to know you should know A LOT more before jumping into a build).

Now I don't have to argue with him anymore (unless I want to). It's all right there. And I didn't even have to drive home any conclusions or try to sway anyone's opinion - again, it's all right there.

So, I actually feel pretty good about that. People can decide for themselves.

(PS - I also think it just might be the longest post ever on the interwebs.)


----------



## chall03

smackdaddy said:


> (PS - I also think it just might be the longest post ever on the interwebs.)


Well since Sway left anyway


----------



## tdw

Proof positive that those damn plastic tubs are utterly useless ....

Funnelweb | High Performance Sailing?. where fast just ain't fast enough!

Funny coincidence ... I was visiting some mates in Newcastle early in the year just as these guys were getting ready to head out for the start of the Melbourne to Osaka then last evening same place as FunnelWeb came home around midnight.

Surprisingly (insert sarcasm warning) the boat looks in pretty good shape.


----------



## outbound

Andrew- get "this video does not exist". Is it in the same place ashard performance data on BS boats ?


----------



## Brent Swain

I finally got to a place where internet access is unlimited. So in the next couple of days I will respond, point by point, to Smack's naïve , amateur , inexperienced disinformation comments. Right now, the suns going down, and its getting colder. Still warm enough for a swim in the lake today, but not much longer.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Andrew- get "this video does not exist". Is it in the same place ashard performance data on BS boats ?


For a copy of the origamiboats video , contact Alex at [email protected]


----------



## Brent Swain

Interesting that the strongest opponents of steel are the ones who have never sailed one, and have never built owned or maintained one, but simply parrot the disinformation propagated by plastic boat salesmen. This was supposed to be a pros and cons of steel sailboats discussion. The fact that the only pros were from the only person on this debate ( a pro) who has built, designed and sailed for decades on steel sailboats, the only one with any first hand experience on the subject, and the only cons were from those who have no experience on the subject ,and who imply that only cons should be allowed (Cons in more ways than one).
As for performance , Silas Crosby's times were in the same range as most heavily loaded offshore cruisers , better than many, regardless of material. Paul Wilsons comments on the origamiboats site are similar experiences, faster than many stock fibreglass boats.
Moitessier ( who's steel boat I had nothing to do with) made similar fast passage times, in the roaring 40s, with none of the failures one would expect as normal on similar voyage in a plastic boat.


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> So in the next couple of days I will respond, point by point, to Smack's naïve , amateur , inexperienced disinformation comments.


But Brent, Smack didn't actually say anything. He collated everything you said.

The naive amateurish misinformation was all YOU. Feel free to address your quoted comments however, several times you have been invited to substantiate your claims, I look forward to you finally doing so.

How's Smack's Brentblock??


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> Interesting that the strongest opponents of steel are the ones who have never sailed one, and have never built owned or maintained one


Strong opponents of steel??

Would you like to identify these ghastly beasts and which posts you refer to? Then we can discuss their specific qualifications to speak on this subject.

I personally just don't see it. People discussed the design considerations and also expressed personal preferences against steel for varying reasons, while conceding that it has advantages.

I only see 'strong opponents' to some of your more outrageous claims.



Brent Swain said:


> ...simply parrot the disinformation propagated by plastic boat salesmen.


This is typical paranoid, patronising BS crap. We are capable of disagreeing with you all on our own without parroting anyone thanks. This disinformation you speak of, would you care to produce some data that proves it to be disinformation??



Brent Swain said:


> As for performance , Silas Crosby's times were in the same range as most heavily loaded offshore cruisers , better than many, regardless of material. Paul Wilsons comments on the origamiboats site are similar experiences, faster than many stock fibreglass boats.
> Moitessier ( who's steel boat I had nothing to do with) made similar fast passage times, in the roaring 40s


Anecdotal but interesting information. What is your point?? Is it that ALL Brent boats are faster than ALL 'plastic' boats? Give me a break. That some steel boats can go faster than some 'plastic' boats?? Well of course.

In general though the point stands that _generally_ steel boats because of their weight are going to perform more poorly than a similar 'plastic' or 'aluminum' boat, particularly in a smaller yacht. This is actually based on scientific fact and figures. You can't counter physics and Newton's Law by saying I know a guy on a steel boat that once in The Pacific went faster than a plastic boat.


----------



## Don L

seems you could change a few words here and there and this thread could be about production boats or anchors


----------



## bobperry

Talked to an owner of a Baba 40 ketch yesterday. He was at the Perry Rendezvous. He was telling me about another Baba 40 ketch owner who single handed his boat around Cape Horn this year.

It's a very good looking boat that gets the job done. Apparently it was tough enough to go around the Horn.


----------



## smackdaddy

It would be interesting to know the ratio of plastic-to-steel for the sailboats that have rounded the Horn. I've read about quite a few plastics having successful roundings (your Baba, Jean Socrates, Michael's Hunter "Sequitur", the Vendee boats, the VOR boats, and on and on). Very few steel.


----------



## bobperry

There was a Nordic 44 in S. America. The owner left his wife off and continued with plans nto opick her up at some arranged point. He didn't show up and this got tense. He showed up in the Falklands after rounding the Horn solo. His explanation as I recall was something like, "I just felt like going on."

Great looking boat, fast and a delight to sail. Tough enough apparently.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent - to sweeten the pot on the block deal, I'll also throw in this snazzy ad for your yacht design firm...FOR FREE!










That's a $1,200 value! It would be $2,500 but I stole the creative from Dos Equis.

(PS - Between you and me, that starboard bow hull surface looks a tiny bit wavy. Some filler ought to fix that right up.)


----------



## outbound

Seems to recall the OP was pro and con of steel boats. It's a shame that BS doesn't share his view of cons just the pros. Would believe as a builder and given his cruising experience he would be very familiar with the cons. Think most of use know the cons of GRP and other constructions. Would be very educational if he would share his thoughts given the performance data appears to be not forthcoming.


----------



## JomsViking

Bob,

We're all delusional. Think the Matrix, this has only ever happened in our minds, and not in reality (whatever that is).






So there....

/Joms



bobperry said:


> Talked to an owner of a Baba 40 ketch yesterday. He was at the Perry Rendezvous. He was telling me about another Baba 40 ketch owner who single handed his boat around Cape Horn this year.
> 
> It's a very good looking boat that gets the job done. Apparently it was tough enough to go around the Horn.


----------



## bljones

Yacths?


----------



## bobperry

Well, they are close.


----------



## smackdaddy

bljones said:


> Yacths?


Thanks for the heads-up dude. Last time I use that Sri-Lankan pre school for QA. They are cheap though!

Fixed.

(Brent, I'll knock another $50 off for the typo. Fair's fair. So only a $1,150 value. But that'll still buy a lot of ice cream!)


----------



## tdw

outbound said:


> Andrew- get "this video does not exist". Is it in the same place ashard performance data on BS boats ?


Sorry, can't help you there. I'm getting the same message.


----------



## Brent Swain

chall03 said:


> Strong opponents of steel??
> 
> Would you like to identify these ghastly beasts and which posts you refer to? Then we can discuss their specific qualifications to speak on this subject.
> 
> I personally just don't see it. People discussed the design considerations and also expressed personal preferences against steel for varying reasons, while conceding that it has advantages.
> 
> I only see 'strong opponents' to some of your more outrageous claims.
> 
> This is typical paranoid, patronising BS crap. We are capable of disagreeing with you all on our own without parroting anyone thanks. This disinformation you speak of, would you care to produce some data that proves it to be disinformation??
> 
> Anecdotal but interesting information. What is your point?? Is it that ALL Brent boats are faster than ALL 'plastic' boats? Give me a break. That some steel boats can go faster than some 'plastic' boats?? Well of course.
> 
> In general though the point stands that _generally_ steel boats because of their weight are going to perform more poorly than a similar 'plastic' or 'aluminum' boat, particularly in a smaller yacht. This is actually based on scientific fact and figures. You can't counter physics and Newton's Law by saying I know a guy on a steel boat that once in The Pacific went faster than a plastic boat.


 The point I am making is they are in the middle of the fleet, not as fast as some plastic boats and faster than others. There is no such thing as a light plastic boat which has been lived aboard full time for many years, and the heavier the design, the less off her empty lines loading her up will make her.
No two people will put the same weight of possessions aboard.
I tried responding to Smacks disinformation rant , but when I pressed submit, it was blocked. I will keep trying, later.
Maybe sneak it in when nobody is watching, going back and forth between submit and edit.


----------



## Brent Swain

NCC320 said:


> Brent,
> 
> You made the following statement:
> 
> "a marina queen like most of Bobs rarely leaving the dock except for a two week summer vacation and the odd weekend cruise. Then back to work to pay for it all.
> Those guys have all headed back to work from here leaving paradise free and empty for those of us who live more resourcefully .
> I am a demonstration of how freely one can cruise, semi retired since my mid 20s, by following my own advice".................
> 
> Just suppose, all those guys owning marina queens, with occasional crusing vacation, and then back to work, chose for themselves the life style that they have, just as you have yours. I'm just guessing that most of them wouldn't give up their life style for one like yours. And, it could be that their chosen life style gives them lots of rewards that yours can't provide.
> 
> There is more than one way to live a successful, rewarding life. Most people select a route different than you have chosen. Yours may be fine for you, but it's not, nor should it be everyone's choice.


For such use, Bob's boats are ideally suited, which I have pointed out in the past. Mine are far better for full time cruising, and full time living aboard.


----------



## tdw

Brent Swain said:


> For such use, Bob's boats are ideally suited, which I have pointed out in the past. Mine are far better for full time cruising, and full time living aboard.


Really and truly Brent .... this is the sort of nonsense that gets you into such trouble. Your boats may well make very good full time cruisers and/or full time live aboards. Many steelers do. Certainly our old steel VDS34 was a bloody good boat. Now some of Bob's may be totally unsuitable for such uses but to suggest that yours are simply better overall is just so much codswallop.

BP designs boats for many applications but I doubt even he would consider the Flying Tiger to be much of a liveaboard.


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> The point I am making is they are in the middle of the fleet, not as fast as some plastic boats and faster than others. There is no such thing as a light plastic boat which has been lived aboard full time for many years, and the heavier the design, the less off her empty lines loading her up will make her.
> No two people will put the same weight of possessions aboard.


Sure. Like you said, it depends though doesn't it??
On how you sail and how you load the boat.



Brent Swain said:


> For such use, Bob's boats are ideally suited, which I have pointed out in the past. Mine are far better for full time cruising, and full time living aboard.


Brent some of Bob's boats were designed to be full time cruising boats like your boats, and many are doing just that.

That they are doing it, suggests that their owners believe them to be ideally suited to this, alot of owners actually. Alot of Bob happiness. Your owners find your boats ideally suited. That is also good.

I got stuck in the Port of Bundaberg for several weeks end of 2011, the beginning of cyclone season with boats coming in several a day from New Caledonia, Vanuatu, Fiji.

There sure were steel boats a plenty(if a recall lots of Adams, a couple of Roberts, and a Van de Stadt), also plenty of aluminum OVNI's packed with tanned fit and happy French/Italians who had crossed half the world in their boats. A guy was on his 3rd circumnavigation on a Swan 65. I did also see a Bob Perry designed Saga 43, that had boasted of racking 200nm days again and again coming across the Pacific. All of them seemed to love their boats, all of these boats actually interested me and appealed to me in different ways for different reasons.


----------



## Brent Swain

Smack got completely laughed of the cruising.stuffiminto.com site with his distortions, and lying manipulations.


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> Smack got completely laughed of the cruising.stuffiminto.com site with his distortions, and lying manipulations.


Cruising sutffiminto got completely laughed off the interwebs for being the most distorted, lying, manipulative sailing forum on the planet. It has 6 active members now doesn't it??


----------



## tdw

chall03 said:


> Cruising sutffiminto got completely laughed off the interwebs for being the most distorted, lying, manipulative sailing forum on the planet. It has 6 active members now doesn't it??


That many ?


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Smack got completely laughed of the cruising.stuffiminto.com site with his distortions, and lying manipulations.


I actually like Stuff. I've posted there quite a bit. RTB hangs out there. He's a forum friend whom I've had the pleasure to meet (and who hangs out here too). Great dude.

Also, I just posted a link to the BS Marketing Programme over there too. Your words Brent. I don't have to distort or lie or manipulate anything. Your words.

They can laugh or cry. Doesn't matter to me.


----------



## smackdaddy

chall03 said:


> Cruising sutffiminto got completely laughed off the interwebs for being the most distorted, lying, manipulative sailing forum on the planet. It has 6 active members now doesn't it??


3 more than another very similar forum I shall not mention.


----------



## bobperry

Brent: you are getting weird again. Back away from the pipe and chill.

No you boats are not "in the middle" of the performance range. Your boats are close to the middle of the bottom and you cannot provide a shred of credible evidence that would prove otherwise. Your shapes are derived from geometry. That's fine but it's not the way to design performance into a boat. And don't think us really dumb enough to believe that ridiculous twadlle about "passsing the racing fleet off San Diego". Right.

There is so much I'd like to say here. But it would be unkind. I'll just shut up and let Brent continue with his desperate rant.

Fuzzy One:
Are you saying the Ft10m is not a live aboard?

Fact is that I can design boats like ther Ft10m that can smoke past any BS boat on any day just goes to show that I have a broad range of skills. In his wildest dreams BS could not design a boat lioke this. To me it's just another boat for a different purpose.


----------



## tdw

smackdaddy said:


> I actually like Stuff. I've posted there quite a bit. RTB hangs out there. He's a forum friend whom I've had the pleasure to meet (and who hangs out here too). Great dude.
> 
> Also, I just posted a link to the BS Marketing Programme over there too. Your words Brent. I don't have to distort or lie or manipulate anything. Your words.
> 
> They can laugh or cry. Doesn't matter to me.


What I cannot comprehend is how sweet gentle Fuzzball got a lifetime ban by the the Stuffer yet you survived ? Now that is crazy.


----------



## chall03

Second you on RTB Smack, exchanged but a couple of messages with him over the years yet I know him to be a heck of a guy.

Stuffers is what it is. Enough said.


----------



## smackdaddy

tdw said:


> What I cannot comprehend is how sweet gentle Fuzzball got a lifetime ban by the the Stuffer yet you survived ? Now that is crazy.


It is a bit odd I'll grant you. I changed my Sully-edited sig from "Part of Coordinated Attack on Board" to "Best Part of Coordinated Attack on Board". Heh-heh.

Sully's not so bad. He came out of all that hubbub kind of smelling like a rose actually...compared to some others who were a little over the top on the taunting there at the end. His forum's doing fine - and those tables kind of turned on the taunters. Funny how things always work out.

-Yeah, Chall, RTB is the guy who hooked me into ocean racing. I got to meet him and his wife before heading out on that first race. They've been cruising the Carib now for the last year or two. They're having some seriously good times. I hope to see them again when they head back this way.


----------



## tdw

bobperry said:


> Fuzzy One:
> Are you saying the Ft10m is not a live aboard?
> 
> .


Last time I was having a squizz at Balmain Tiger (FT10 out of Balmain Sailing Club) she was a wee bit tight down below.


----------



## Capt Len

Keeping this thread to topic ie pros and cons,. I'd like to point out that the production of so many plastic hulls, which are actually modified oil , is surely a factor in global warming and climate change.This partial responsibility for the thinning of the Arctic ice has so angered the northern angels as they lose their ancestral dancing territory that they have caused an increase in stormy weather in temperate latitudes in the hope of destroying as many GRP boats as possible. You may well ask 'How many angels are involved?' Hows that for thread adherence?


----------



## jak3b

Capt Len said:


> Keeping this thread to topic ie pros and cons,. I'd like to point out that the production of so many plastic hulls, which are actually modified oil , is surely a factor in global warming and climate change.This partial responsibility for the thinning of the Arctic ice has so angered the northern angels as they lose their ancestral dancing territory that they have caused an increase in stormy weather in temperate latitudes in the hope of destroying as many GRP boats as possible. You may well ask 'How many angels are involved?' Hows that for thread adherence?


Are you F'ing kidding me? all those plastic hulls,how about the millions of tons of plastic disposable diapers,styrofoam cups, the billions of tons of plastic household crap that is produced and buried everyday.The entire history of fiberglass boat production world wide wouldnt compare to a single week of that. I tell what would though and thats a Chinese coal fired steel mill, just one has caused more enviromental damage that all the plastic and wood boatbuilding in the last 50 years.


----------



## bobperry

Fuzzer:
I can't believe you tried to whizz below on the Ft10m.
It's not that kind of live aboard.

Of course Brent is going to say, "Oh yeah just see what happens to an FT10m when it goes on the rocks."

To begin with, the Ft10m, that could sail circles around your 34'er, is just a race boat and not a cruiser. But since you were probably going to bring up the subject I'll say that an Ft10m in Sydney Harbor broke its mooring in a storm and pounded on the rocks for two days There was damage to the lifting keel trunk but the rest of the boat came through the ordeal very well. The boat is still racing.


----------



## tdw

Oh Pshaw Perry, pshaw. are you honestly suggesting a 20 year old VDS with all our gear could not keep up with an FT ?

sigh.

OK I concede you this one point but if the sucker didn't give me right of way then I'd nail him. As for the FT still racing ... sounds like us. everyone else back at the bar and we'd still be racing. 

cheers


----------



## blt2ski

I can not believe I keep coming back here to see what BS is going on...........

Marty


----------



## RTB

chall03 said:


> Stuffers is what it is. Enough said.


Miss you guys, but I can still come here for a visit now and then. Too bad it didn't work out at stuffers for everybody. Where is Sailingdog anyway? :laugher

My wife and I met smack back in Texas. It was cool to actually meet the legend in person!

Keep it up here. You guys are a class act.

Ralph
Sea turtle visitor | sailing away with R & B


----------



## RTB

Brent Swain said:


> Smack got completely laughed of the cruising.stuffiminto.com site with his distortions, and lying manipulations.


You're on your own here, and it's not looking so good for you.

Ralph
Sea turtle visitor | sailing away with R & B


----------



## RTB

tdw said:


> What I cannot comprehend is how sweet gentle Fuzzball got a lifetime ban by the the Stuffer yet you survived ? Now that is crazy.


Your profile doesn't say Banned. I'm sure you can sleep better now. Heh-heh. 41 posts. Pretty good ones, too.


----------



## chall03

RTB said:


> Your profile doesn't say Banned. I'm sure you can sleep better now. Heh-heh. 41 posts. Pretty good ones, too.


I think after the fallout had settled some, Sully went through and unbanned a bunch of us from what I recall...I was unbanned after 6 months or so.

I pop in at stuffers occasionally, I might be giving it a bit of a slap on here but life is too short to hold grudges against people on the internet. I check in at CF and that _other_ favourite site of Smack's as well, too little time though to spend on several forums at once, i'm just not that smart.

If everyone is truly having a Brentboat love-in over there them maybe I will give it a miss for a month and go check in on the Portagee.


----------



## smackdaddy

chall03 said:


> I think after the fallout had settled some, Sully went through and unbanned a bunch of us from what I recall...I was unbanned after 6 months or so.
> 
> I pop in at stuffers occasionally, I might be giving it a bit of a slap on here but life is too short to hold grudges against people on the internet. I check in at CF and that _other_ favourite site of Smack's as well, too little time though to spend on several forums at once, i'm just not that smart.
> 
> If everyone is truly having a Brentboat love-in over there them maybe I will give it a miss for a month and go check in on the Portagee.


Send him my love - and subpoena. Heh-heh.


----------



## bljones

I've got enough crazy in my life without voluntarily enduring Sully.


----------



## smackdaddy

Now that's funny.


----------



## Brent Swain

Smack quoted a line beginning "He assumed he had pants to crap in," etc. without giving the context . I suppose he could take a quote out of the joke section and imply the writer was being literal, by leaving the context out.
Actually that was taken from a discussion about religion, having nothing to do with boats. When a holy roller tried to imply the infallibility of the bible I mentioned the story of Adam and Eve.
According to the Bible , Adam praised the garden of Eden, praised the beauty of all the plants and fruit in it, including the forbidden fruit, and named al the animals. 
Only then did he eat the forbidden fruit, and only then could he see that he was naked. So while he was praising the beauty of the garden of Eden, praising the beauty of all the fruit in it and naming all the animals , he was blind as a bat.
Being naked up to the time he ate the forbidden fruit, he assumed he had pants on , because if he had tried to take his pants off to take dump, he would have realized he was naked. 
So this guy , blind as a bat, dumb as a stump, filthy enough to be willing to take a dump in his pants ,and lies like a mountie in a courtroom, is made in the image of a god we are all supposed to swoon over, worship and emulate?
Apologies for seemingly going off topic, but there was no other way to reveal what Smack was doing. This is typical of many of his manipulations thruout his posts. This is the message smack took a line out of context from , without giving the context? 
If that kind of practice is fair game here, then I'm sure I can come up with similar tricks with such quotes from smacks posts, and Bobs, given that he endorsed such manipulation and deception. Boy, wait till you see some of the quotes I can manipulate from what Smack and Bob have posted!
If I leave out "Brent said " part, could I quote Bob as saying "My wife is a *****etc. etc . or quote Smack saying similar things?
You get the idea.
I never once insulted Bob's wife , just asked if anyone had seen her. I could easily arrange for Bob or Smack to do so, using Smacks strategy.
Or does using this type of misrepresentation mean Smack is overdue for a" long time out".


----------



## bobperry

Boy Brent you are one angry guy for someone who lives the "perfect life".
Seems to me you have some personal issues.

One race to go for the Kiwi's. Watching the AC listening to my lawn guy manicure my lawn, not the perfect life but not too bad.


----------



## Brent Swain

Smack said one doesn't need a wheelhouse, a dodger works just as well. Most dodgers I have seen protect the person in the cockpit on one point of sail, going to windward. On all other points of sail, the only way one can get protection from a dodger is to curl up in fetal position under them. Smack is comparing a dodger to a fully insulated wheel house with inside steering, 5 feet from a roaring wood stove; like comparing a lean to ( without the campfire) to a hotel suite . People in expensive boats, use their dodger, in full foul weather gear and heavy clothing. In the dead of winter, I cruise BC in snowstorms in a T shirt.
Or as Smack would say "Silly Brent , he prefers a hotel suite's comfort over a lean to ( without the campfire)"
A cruising boat without a wheelhouse is as logical as a pickup truck which can only be steered from an open box. What's that smack, if you huddle behind the cab, a truck doesn't need an inside steering position?
Ya sure!
If Smack had any experience, besides that which he made up , he would not be making such foolish, naïve comments.


----------



## Brent Swain

Bobs comments , implying that anyone who disagrees with him and Smack ,is unhappy, and that if a man is truly happy, he would agree with everything he and Smack says, seriously undermines his credibility. 
Where, in Smacks imaginary world, did you ever get that theory?


----------



## bobperry

I don't imply that at all Brent. I am simply saying, here, I'll say it slowly for you, That you try way too hard to convince everyone of your "perfect life". My experience is that people with "perfect lives" do not go around proclaiming it daily. But you do and at the same time you attack my wife like a 4th grader and rant on here with desperate attempts to try and prove anyone who has a different approach to cruising is an idiot. It just doesn't fit with your "perfect life" facade. Way too much anger leaks through.

I'm a live and let live kind of person. If someone wants to do it differently then good for him. It may not be my way but if it works for him then fine. It sure as hell doesn't make me angry. I need to go watch the second race.


----------



## Brent Swain

The picture of the ship which killed the Sleavin family is interesting. Smack claims that if that bow were to hit a sealed tin can, it would punch a hole in the can, and sink it. 
So try this Smack . Try to punch a hole in a tin can by whacking it with the side of a three inch steel pipe, while it is floating in water, with a singe blow. You cant do it. You can try it with the can on a workbench if you want to, but that wasn't the situation in the Sleavin case. You can whack it flat without making a hole in it. The same effort would definitely hole a fibreglass container.
So how would such a blunt bow as that of the freighter in the picture, manage to hole a 36 ft steel boat. The ****** pictures and that of the sister ship to Joshua clearly show that there is just not enough inertia in a boat that small for that to happen. Sure it would make a hell of a big dent , it did in the boats I mentioned, but there is not enough inertia for such a blunt bow to hole a steel boat of the size the Sleavins were in.
That would take sharp point and there is no such sharp point in the picture you posted. It would be the equivalent of your trying to punch a hole in the can, floating in water, with your three inch steel pipe. Had the Sleavins been in a much larger boat with far more inertia, then it would probably sink it, but not in such a small steel boat. The ****** proved that.


----------



## Brent Swain

Bob
Letting lies go unchallenged, causes people all kinds of grief and needless expense. The only way to prevent it is to challenge all such lies, which I do, enjoy doing, and intend to keep on doing . No not allowing lies to go unchallenged, does not make me unhappy. Passively watching people hurt by them, when I could do something to save them the expense and frustration, would make me unhappy .
Rather than give up the long hours Smack spent trying to tie me up, countering his crap , I will spend the coming fall and winter taking them apart, one by one, at my leisure, when it's to rainy to do much else.


----------



## Brent Swain

I was going to send Smack one of my blocks, until someone on another site pointed out how he could easily manipulate the results, to say whatever he wanted them to say. Given I his track record of misrepresentation, manipulation, deception and lying, it would inevitably be the case. 
I did a search under Garhaur. I saw a single block for $21. Was that the $25 block Smack wanted to test mine against? I asked him to post a picture of the block he has in mind , but he wouldn't . It is rated at safe working load of 1150 lbs, a fraction the strength of a loop of half inch line over it. The becket on my block, at 45,000 psi for aluminium, is over 16,000 lbs breaking strength. How would that compare to the 3/16th shackle on the block that Smack proposes as stronger, or the tiny amount of stainless around the threaded end of the shackle pin? I am willing to do the test myself in front of witnesses , and post the video of it this winter , without Smack's manipulations and deceptions .. No problem.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I was going to send Smack one of my blocks, until someone on another site pointed out how he could easily manipulate the results, to say whatever he wanted them to say. Given I his track record of misrepresentation, manipulation, deception and lying, it would inevitably be the case.
> I did a search under Garhaur. I saw a single block for $21. Was that the $25 block Smack wanted to test mine against? I asked him to post a picture of the block he has in mind , but he wouldn't . It is rated at safe working load of 1150 lbs, a fraction the strength of a loop of half inch line over it. The becket on my block, at 45,000 psi for aluminium, is over 16,000 lbs breaking strength. How would that compare to the 3/16th shackle on the block that Smack proposes as stronger, or the tiny amount of stainless around the threaded end of the shackle pin? I am willing to do the test myself in front of witnesses , and post the video of it this winter , without Smack's manipulations and deceptions .. No problem.


Nah, Sully over at Stuff has already agreed to officiate.

http://cruising.stuffiminto.com/boat-building-design/2333-fukashima-debris-24.html#post44187

So make your block that will be "just as good" as the Garhauer (not just stronger - a crane block is stronger than your block after all, and still useless on a boat as you said)



Brent Swain said:


> ...stronger ,uglier , and useless...


Provide Sully a video that proves you made it in 20 minutes and for $2 (actually, let's up that to $4 since it's stainless and I'm a very fair guy) along with your block. He'll weight it, look at the difference it construction quality, look at the difference in functionality - then go all NASA on both of them with a truck and a tree.

Here was the original challenge and specs:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here's the deal: I'll personally pay you $11 (plus shipping) for one of your home-made jobbies IF it's anywhere near the same look, strength, and specs as the following Garhauer model (just post the pic when you've got it ready):



> Single Blocks with Adjustable Shackle
> 25-13 US - Stainless Steel Blocks
> length:	4-1/4	width:	2
> weight:	5 oz	shackle:	3/16
> sheave diameter: 1-3/4
> 
> Comes with set screw to make it fixed shackle. Safe working load is 1150 lbs.
> 
> $21.42












Note the nice smooth bearings. Don't forget those in your version.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> *Smack quoted a line beginning "He assumed he had pants to crap in," etc. without giving the context . I suppose he could take a quote out of the joke section and imply the writer was being literal, by leaving the context out.
> Actually that was taken from a discussion about religion, having nothing to do with boats. When a holy roller tried to imply the infallibility of the bible I mentioned the story of Adam and Eve.*
> According to the Bible , Adam praised the garden of Eden, praised the beauty of all the plants and fruit in it, including the forbidden fruit, and named al the animals.
> Only then did he eat the forbidden fruit, and only then could he see that he was naked. So while he was praising the beauty of the garden of Eden, praising the beauty of all the fruit in it and naming all the animals , he was blind as a bat.
> Being naked up to the time he ate the forbidden fruit, he assumed he had pants on , because if he had tried to take his pants off to take dump, he would have realized he was naked.
> So this guy , blind as a bat, dumb as a stump, filthy enough to be willing to take a dump in his pants ,and lies like a mountie in a courtroom, is made in the image of a god we are all supposed to swoon over, worship and emulate?
> Apologies for seemingly going off topic, but there was no other way to reveal what Smack was doing. This is typical of many of his manipulations thruout his posts. This is the message smack took a line out of context from , without giving the context?
> If that kind of practice is fair game here, then I'm sure I can come up with similar tricks with such quotes from smacks posts, and Bobs, given that he endorsed such manipulation and deception. Boy, wait till you see some of the quotes I can manipulate from what Smack and Bob have posted!
> If I leave out "Brent said " part, could I quote Bob as saying "My wife is a *****etc. etc . or quote Smack saying similar things?
> You get the idea.
> I never once insulted Bob's wife , just asked if anyone had seen her. I could easily arrange for Bob or Smack to do so, using Smacks strategy.
> *Or does using this type of misrepresentation mean Smack is overdue for a" long time out".*


Ah Brent - you just keep stepping in it. Here's your quote from the "Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat" thread - a thread that had everything to do with boats (notice the red parts):



Brent Swain said:


> Aesthetically pleasing is different for those who buy whatever consumerism is trying to sell them , from those who do their own thinking. Have you ever seen any of my boats, or are you like the biblical "Adam", who named all the animals and praised the beauty of the Garden of Eden, while he was blind?





Brent Swain said:


> After praising the garden of Eden for it's beauty, including the beauty of the forbidden fruit, and naming all the animals , while blind , he only gained his eyesight after eating the forbidden fruit, and only then did he realize he was naked.(After having taken many a leak and dump, assuming he had pants on , never bothering to take them down, for if he had, he would have noticed that he had no pants on) As soon as he gained his eysight he was kicked out, no time left to praise or name anything.
> 
> Now there's a credibility problem! Funny nobody noticed!


Now where am I taking things out of context again? Where am I using "misrepresentation"? Keep trying.


----------



## smackdaddy

See - here's where the beauty of quoting comes in - and why I put the time into doing it. Just grab my quotes that have me saying the following - exactly as you've said it:



Brent Swain said:


> Smack said one doesn't need a wheelhouse, a dodger works just as well.





Brent Swain said:


> The picture of the ship which killed the Sleavin family is interesting. Smack claims that if that bow were to hit a sealed tin can, it would punch a hole in the can, and sink it.


I'll wait.

If you can't find those quotes, just as you've said I said them, then you might have a credibility problem, Brent.

Every quote I pulled of yours consists of _your words_...verbatim:

*THE BS YACHTS MARKETING PROGRAM*


----------



## bobperry

Way to weasel on the block Brent.
I knew there was no way you would make good on this. I knew.
There you had it in front of you, compliments of Smack, and you weaseled.

Now, in typical Brent style you blame someone else for why you will not build the block.
Choice! 
"I was going to send Smack one of my blocks, until someone on another site pointed out how he could easily manipulate the results, "

Can't you think for yourself? Weaseled.

I'm not name calling. I'm using "weasel" as a verb.

Oh yeah, Adam was blind. I forgot all about that bit of nonsense from someone who likes to rant against religion. Might want to read up a bit on it before commenting Brent.

Brent I will patiently sit here waiting for you to take apart Smack's lies one by one. I have some time here at the beach so I can wait. But I fear I am going to have a long wait. I'll see that mythical block before I see you putting away Smack's "lies". His lies are your words. That's going to be hard for you. "Perfect life"? Give me a break. You are hard on the defensive 24/7. That can't be perfect. 

Got to feed the dogs and get off to the dojo.


----------



## chall03

Brent - Just because your angry with God for always putting reefs in front of your slow ugly boats, don't take it out on him here.


----------



## Classic30

It seems to me that what was once a good thread is fast moving towards off-topic..


----------



## bobperry

There is no off topic.
I learned that in the 60's.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Bob
> Letting lies go unchallenged, causes people all kinds of grief and needless expense. The only way to prevent it is to challenge all such lies, which I do, enjoy doing, and intend to keep on doing . No not allowing lies to go unchallenged, does not make me unhappy. Passively watching people hurt by them, when I could do something to save them the expense and frustration, would make me unhappy.


Dude. I know just how you feel.


----------



## tdw

RTB said:


> Your profile doesn't say Banned. I'm sure you can sleep better now. Heh-heh. 41 posts. Pretty good ones, too.


I was on fire .... 

Dead right mate, I have been unbanned. Interesting but like Jonesy, Chall and probably a few others I simply do not have the time and energy to spend my life forum surfing. I'll go and have a read occasionally but that is about all. Must say that despite my vehement objections to the way Smack was treated at A-S I still like to think of Alex as a friend and if I do miss CA.

Maybe though if we ever find a foolproof method of keeping BBQ under lock and key I might have some free time.


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
But you lie all the time. You make things up. You invent facts.
For instance, the time your boats passed the racing fleet in San Diego? What's with that? Do you seriolusly believe we think that is reality?

But, not to worry I am here to call you on each and every lie you tell. I have fun doing it.
If I miss one of your lies, i.e. the 28' custom Perry alu boat for instance, I'm sure Smackers will catch it.


----------



## smackdaddy

tdw said:


> I was on fire ....
> 
> Dead right mate, I have been unbanned. Interesting but like Jonesy, Chall and probably a few others I simply do not have the time and energy to spend my life forum surfing. I'll go and have a read occasionally but that is about all. Must say that despite my vehement objections to the way Smack was treated at A-S I still like to think of Alex as a friend and if I do miss CA.
> 
> Maybe though if we ever find a foolproof method of keeping BBQ under lock and key I might have some free time.


I'll be honest, you guys are much better at throwing off grudges than I've been. And I don't say that proudly. I really hope he just got caught up in the heat of the moment back then. But that was some serious defamation that went down after I'd been booted. Not just forum fighting - but _really_ low blows.

Even so, I would love to bury the Rocna. I know it's not worth it. I considered him a friend too. I'll try to get over it.

That said - CA is the bomb. SA may very well crater due to the lawsuit - but CA has some of the best sailors there are on the interwebs. Those guys are gold.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> I'm sure Smackers will catch it.


What can I say?


----------



## bobperry

Yahoo!
We be gold!


----------



## RTB

tdw said:


> I was on fire ....
> 
> Dead right mate, I have been unbanned. Interesting but like Jonesy, Chall and probably a few others I simply do not have the time and energy to spend my life forum surfing.


Happy I was right. Drop by any time.

Ralph


----------



## bljones

Sully has likely seen traffic climb 100 000% thanks to this thread.


----------



## blt2ski

So HOW bad is SA doing? have not gone over there and peaked in awhile.....but do know of something along a lawsuit line........

I do read pressure drop upon occasion also, but pretty weak at times.....

Marty


----------



## tdw

smackdaddy said:


> I'll be honest, you guys are much better at throwing off grudges than I've been. And I don't say that proudly. I really hope he just got caught up in the heat of the moment back then. But that was some serious defamation that went down after I'd been booted. Not just forum fighting - but _really_ low blows.
> 
> Even so, I would love to bury the Rocna. I know it's not worth it. I considered him a friend too. I'll try to get over it.
> 
> That said - CA is the bomb. SA may very well crater due to the lawsuit - but CA has some of the best sailors there are on the interwebs. Those guys are gold.


For another thread probably and just as probably needlessly scratching at old sores. I shouldn't have brought it up but it niggles. I liked/like Alex but that business was without redeeming feature. Nuff said.

Been so long since I Anarchyed (sic) but what lawsuit ?


----------



## tdw

Aha .... so its that fat truck eh ? I thought the Meyers thing was dead and buried years ago. What a piece of work.


Given the look of the cat funt all SA need to do is hang on until his ticker gives out.


----------



## bobperry

His ticker may give out before his money does.


----------



## djodenda

I like learning Australian slang from Fuzzy.


----------



## bljones

djodenda said:


> I like learning Australian slang from Fuzzy.


I think fuzzy makes a lot of it up.


----------



## bobperry

The fuzzy one is a fair dinkum bloke.


----------



## smackdaddy

tdw said:


> Aha ....cat funt...


I think we have a new term for the AC34!


----------



## djodenda

bljones said:


> I think fuzzy makes a lot of it up.


I've wondered about that...


----------



## blt2ski

hmmmmmm

there seems to be a "dejodenda" person speaking up out of the wood work..........might have heard of him before.......but then again............

There is more than one ozzie with some funky slang! unlke them folks from warshinton!


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Rather than give up the long hours Smack spent trying to tie me up, countering his crap , I will spend the coming fall and winter taking them apart, one by one, at my leisure, when it's to rainy to do much else.


It only took me 4 or 5 hours to pull all that together. Kind of like you and your hulls and decks.

You should easily be able to do the same. If you can't don't blame me.


----------



## bobperry

There is an old book called "THEY'RE A WEIRD MOB.
It's about, as I recall, an Italian immigrant to Australia who lands speaking perfect Queeen's English. Of course this helps him little in Australia. I read the book when I was a kid living there and I thought it was hilarious.


----------



## RTB

chall03 said:


> If everyone is truly having a Brentboat love-in over there


Not everyone. We've had our fun with Brent - Kai vs Brent Epic Smack Down (Thread may contain immature content) - Boating, Sailing and Cruising Forum: For Cruisers - BY Cruisers

Ralph


----------



## smackdaddy

RTB said:


> Not everyone. We've had our fun with Brent - Kai vs Brent Epic Smack Down (Thread may contain immature content) - Boating, Sailing and Cruising Forum: For Cruisers - BY Cruisers
> 
> Ralph


Oh yeah! I forgot about that thread. As you can see, that's when I started really wondering about Brent's claims...even after creding the dude. His environmental footprint tirade was one of my favorites (that his boats far better for the environment than wood or GRP).



Brent Swain said:


> When I build someone a steel boat , it is done for a very long time, far longer than a wooden boat, with the resulting minimizing of its evironmental impact, and theirs as well. You say the alternative of spending a life time on the treadlmill, going thru 350 gallons a day of fresh water, burning hundreds of dollars worth of gas and oil a month, building a new car every few years , using a million times the electrical energy of a boat, eating food which on average travels 1500 miles before getting eaten, is less environmentally harmful, per capita, than building a steel boat and living aboard?
> ********! Looks like you just got your ass kicked in this debate.
> No, letting perfectly good gear end up in the landfill, while paying the exploiters of third world slave children to build more, and ship it halfway around the world, is NOT environmentally friendlier.


Too many years of "consumerism" to remember how and where the steel for his boats comes from?














































Thanks for the tiny footprints China.


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## bobperry

Is that guy with the ciggy Brent?


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## copacabana

bobperry said:


> Is that guy with the ciggy Brent?


I don't know why, but that line really cracked me up Bob!


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## Classic30

bobperry said:


> There is an old book called "THEY'RE A WEIRD MOB.
> It's about, as I recall, an Italian immigrant to Australia who lands speaking perfect Queeen's English. Of course this helps him little in Australia. I read the book when I was a kid living there and I thought it was hilarious.


Written by John O'Grady (pen-name: Nino Cullotta). Yes, an excellent read but sooo different to the country as it is now it's almost a historical novel! 

Even so, to quote from Wikipedia: _"In less than six months, the book had been reprinted eight times and sold 74,000 copies. In the first year of publication, over 130,000 copies were sold." _Impressive!

FWIW, his book "Gone Troppo" was equally as hilarious and rather accurately describes the part of the world where I grew up ...and my word hasn't that area changed! Anyone reading the book now might think he was writing about some parallel universe...


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## bobperry

Classic:
I read that book in the mid 50's. I left Australia in 1957. I imagine it is a very different place now.


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## tdw

bobperry said:


> There is an old book called "THEY'RE A WEIRD MOB.
> It's about, as I recall, an Italian immigrant to Australia who lands speaking perfect Queeen's English. Of course this helps him little in Australia. I read the book when I was a kid living there and I thought it was hilarious.


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## bobperry

Makes me cry. Thanks.


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## Brent Swain

RTB said:


> Not everyone. We've had our fun with Brent - Kai vs Brent Epic Smack Down (Thread may contain immature content) - Boating, Sailing and Cruising Forum: For Cruisers - BY Cruisers
> 
> Ralph


Was that the time Kai Nui (Polynesian for "Big Food") tried to tell me that leaving the treadmill and going cruising was "immoral." and everyone should feel morally obliged to live a lifestyle which would take several , more planets to sustain ? Telling cruisers that their aspirations are morally wrong, is not way to make friends in the cruising crowd ,(except for the not too bright among them.)


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Joms:
> I sit here and let BS trash the boat that I been living on for almost 40 years. I choose the facts from Brent, and represent the rich side.


There you go Bob, your own, personal," Smack" style quote. More to come. You endorsed the tactic!


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## RTB

_Was that the time Kai Nui (Polynesian for "Big Food") tried to tell me that leaving the treadmill and going cruising was "immoral." and everyone should feel morally obliged to live a lifestyle which would take several , more planets to sustain ? Telling cruisers that their aspirations are morally wrong, is not way to make friends in the cruising crowd ,(except for the not too bright among them.) _

Those are you words, Brent. Not his. You certainly don't know him very well.

Ralph


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## Brent Swain

Smack doesn't like my welded down stainless handrails. He prefers the bolted down teak of his Catalina 27; thinks they are stronger and less likely to leak. I vang my mainsail to my hand rails . Try that with the teak ones on a Catalina.
He claims that 36 inches are the minimum height for lifelines. How many stock Catalina 27s have 36 inch lifelines ? How many Perry designs have 36inch lifelines? Not many. The only one I measured was 24 inches ,super thin walled stainless, cantilevered off 3 or 4 tiny bolts on the deck. Smack claims my sch 40 stainless type 316 pipe stanchions, 34 inches of the deck, supported by welding on the bottom and welded to a solid sch 40 pipe on top , supported top and bottom, are not adequate, not as adequate as his 24 inch extruded tinfoil stanchions, supported bottom only by 3 or 4 tiny bolts and plastic coated ( Crevice corrosion factory) stainless top life line! 
He doesn't like my 3/8th inch pad eye on my boom bale , but prefers a block with a 3/16th shackle. He thinks the 3/16th shackle is stronger, because it has a trendy brand name on it.
And some want to rely on his judgement !

When the first issues of Sail Magazine came out, they had all kinds of tank test results, including info on rudders. A spade rudder with nothing ahead of it, had a much shallower stall angle than one with a skeg in front of it. They found that, with the bottom raked slightly forward , it was far les inclined to draw air down it, and more likely to draw water slightly up it . Extreme rake drastically reduced a rudder's effectiveness, but a slight forward rake was beneficial. Even the slightest rake aft quickly reduced the rudders effectiveness, pulling air down and causing cavitation. Donald Street wrote extensively about this . He asked many designers why they raked their rudders aft and the only answer they would give him was "It looks fast and sells boats."
Smack wants you to believe that water has changed its ways since then, in order to be "Trendy." 
Smack wants you to believe that a rudder supported both ends, off a strong skeg is not stronger than a fig leaf rudder supported by the top end only!
Structural strength and hydrodynamics are not the only criteria for rudders. I have run thru some pretty heavy kelp beds in the north, which would leave Bob's fig leaf rudders carrying a huge ball of kelp, in seconds . I have ran over heavy lines, which would have left a boat with fig leaf rudder fouled and dead in the water. Try that off a lee shore on a dark night, not something anyone like Smack or Bob, with minimal cruising experience, would comprehend. A cruising boat skeg should be designed to slip over lines and kelp, with out fouling either.
A single keel gives some protection from floating debris, but with twin keels there is nothing in front of the rudder, except, hopefully, a strong skeg. Without a skeg, any hard object would wipe out a fig leaf rudder instantly.


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## bobperry

Brent:
You might want to read that quote once again, slowly this time.
It's not complimentary to you.


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## tdw

bobperry said:


> Makes me cry. Thanks.


Bob, if you meant the Wierd Mob clip the entire movie is on You Tube in two parts.


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## Brent Swain

RTB said:


> _Was that the time Kai Nui (Polynesian for "Big Food") tried to tell me that leaving the treadmill and going cruising was "immoral." and everyone should feel morally obliged to live a lifestyle which would take several , more planets to sustain ? Telling cruisers that their aspirations are morally wrong, is not way to make friends in the cruising crowd ,(except for the not too bright among them.) _
> 
> Those are you words, Brent. Not his. You certainly don't know him very well.
> 
> Ralph


That was the drift of his attacks on my lifestyle, along with his suggestion that we should get our moral guidance from biker gangs. He considers riding a motorbike "Rebellion", while living the designated, cookie cutter, urban lifestyle.


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Oh yeah! I forgot about that thread. As you can see, that's when I started really wondering about Brent's claims...even after creding the dude. His environmental footprint tirade was one of my favorites (that his boats far better for the environment than wood or GRP).
> 
> Too many years of "consumerism" to remember how and where the steel for his boats comes from?
> 
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> 
> Thanks for the tiny footprints China.


On small ,short drop in the bucket of environmental impact, eliminates the need for many a car, a house and all the other environmental foot prints over a life time , resulting in a much tinier overall environmental foot print over a lifetime.
All in those photos was not done for the building of one 36 footer, nor all the 38 I have done. Check out the tar sands to see where fibrglass comes from.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Smack doesn't like my welded down stainless handrails. He prefers the bolted down teak of his Catalina 27; thinks they are stronger and less likely to leak. I vang my mainsail to my hand rails . Try that with the teak ones on a Catalina.
> He claims that 36 inches are the minimum height for lifelines. How many stock Catalina 27s have 36 inch lifelines ? How many Perry designs have 36inch lifelines? Not many. The only one I measured was 24 inches ,super thin walled stainless, cantilevered off 3 or 4 tiny bolts on the deck. Smack claims my sch 40 stainless type 316 pipe stanchions, 34 inches of the deck, supported by welding on the bottom and welded to a solid sch 40 pipe on top , supported top and bottom, are not adequate, not as adequate as his 24 inch extruded tinfoil stanchions, supported bottom only by 3 or 4 tiny bolts and plastic coated ( Crevice corrosion factory) stainless top life line!
> He doesn't like my 3/8th inch pad eye on my boom bale , but prefers a block with a 3/16th shackle. He thinks the 3/16th shackle is stronger, because it has a trendy brand name on it.
> And some want to rely on his judgement !
> 
> When the first issues of Sail Magazine came out, they had all kinds of tank test results, including info on rudders. A spade rudder with nothing ahead of it, had a much shallower stall angle than one with a skeg in front of it. They found that, with the bottom raked slightly forward , it was far les inclined to draw air down it, and more likely to draw water slightly up it . Extreme rake drastically reduced a rudder's effectiveness, but a slight forward rake was beneficial. Even the slightest rake aft quickly reduced the rudders effectiveness, pulling air down and causing cavitation. Donald Street wrote extensively about this . He asked many designers why they raked their rudders aft and the only answer they would give him was "It looks fast and sells boats."
> Smack wants you to believe that water has changed its ways since then, in order to be "Trendy."
> Smack wants you to believe that a rudder supported both ends, off a strong skeg is not stronger than a fig leaf rudder supported by the top end only!
> Structural strength and hydrodynamics are not the only criteria for rudders. I have run thru some pretty heavy kelp beds in the north, which would leave Bob's fig leaf rudders carrying a huge ball of kelp, in seconds . I have ran over heavy lines, which would have left a boat with fig leaf rudder fouled and dead in the water. Try that off a lee shore on a dark night, not something anyone like Smack or Bob, with minimal cruising experience, would comprehend. A cruising boat skeg should be designed to slip over lines and kelp, with out fouling either.
> A single keel gives some protection from floating debris, but with twin keels there is nothing in front of the rudder, except, hopefully, a strong skeg. Without a skeg, any hard object would wipe out a fig leaf rudder instantly.


I want you to believe whatever you think is right. So never take _*anything*_ Brent says I say as gospel.

Here's the place to start figuring it all out for yourself - with Brent's own words (you can even check each quote to see that I didn't change a word he said...just clipped out his point and presented it):

*BS Yachts Marketing Program*

Keep trying Brent. It is fun to watch you trying to get out from under your own words.


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## smackdaddy

No kidding. I think this Marketing Program post really has him rattled. He's kind of freakin' out. I guess no one's ever really nailed him down like this before.

According to his bastardized quote of yours above, he thinks people will believe that I changed his words. That's the beauty of it though, I couldn't make that crap up if I tried!


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## Capt Len

This thread has become such a pathetic juvenile personal attack that it has lost any real value of the pros and cons of steel or any thing relating to intelligent comparison. Better the participants just put their peckers on the table and let some passing whore decide the measure of your maleness. At least it would be just as educational and perhaps oddly entertaining. As sailors we should at least be able to recognize shallow.


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## Don L

Capt Len said:


> This thread has become such a pathetic juvenile personal attack that it has lost any real value of the pros and cons of steel or any thing relating to intelligent comparison. Better the participants just put their peckers on the table and let some passing whore decide the measure of your maleness. At least it would be just as educational and perhaps oddly entertaining. As sailors we should at least be able to recognize shallow.


Have to agree. I actually started reading the thread to read about steel boats, how foolish. Then I started reading the pissing battle. Now I read it because it is like looking at a car crash.


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## outbound

Been off this thread for a few days (taking my life in my hands sailing my plastic boat with a spade rudder). A few pages back BS discussed wheelhouses and disparaged dodgers. Would wish to return to pros and cons. This time concerning dodgers and wheelhouses as BS made statements I feel cannot be justified.
My hard dodger with two layers of safety glass and a film between gives great visibility. With divinylcell core and significant layup on either side is extremely strong. In spite of that it is light with little impact on righting moment.
The dodger has two opening hatches above for good ventilation when necessary and detachable fabric to cover the glass which one can see thro but not in which decreases thermal heating from the sun when needed. 
The dodger extends into the cockpit for several feet giving COMPLETE protection at all angles of sail except DDW when of course apparent wind is less. In combination with my hard bimini ( also cored construction) even DDW protection is quite good. Have an insert between the two for rain etc.
I may not have BS's extensive experience but have some and abstract the following.
Wheelhouses take you out of the environment. Under a hard dodger you are comfortable but still ready to tend your boat in a moments notice without constantly donning and disrobing your foulies. You are more likely to keep your sails in trim. You are more likely to be alert to changes in the sea state or your vessel.
I commonly sleep under my hard dodger while the bride stands watch. We take most of our meals there as well. 

There is a 4" SS post in the center of my spade rudder. It bears on several sets of main bearings several feet apart. Some have been built with carbon fibre. The supporting structure extends above the waterline. Properly designed a spade rudder can be as strong as a skeg rudder. Carl clearly did this in my boat and I'm sure Bob's boats are the same. One sistership was built with a skeg. It was a failure and I believe refitted with a spade. BS's statements about performance of spade v. skeg rudders is simple wrong and more bs as evidenced by simple physics and the fact no current race boat have skeg rudders.

I like wheelhouses such as done on the Hiltenholter boats and the dutch aluminium boats but Brents blanket condemnation of hard dodgers is misplaced as for individuals interested in actively sailing their boats to get best vmg a hard dodger may make better sense.


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## copacabana

Out, I couldn't agree more on the pros of a hard dodger. Are you ever going to be happy with your setup when you get to the tropics! I also have a hard dodger (divinycell sandwich construction) and it's a godsend- keeping me dry, out of the sun and protected from wind and spray when underway. I think it's as good as a wheelhouse, in the tropics at least. When you're on autopilot/wind vane (most of the time) you can curl up under the dodger and just keep an eye on things. Have you got an opening hatch in the windscreen as well? It's great for ventilation.


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## bobperry

I came here to contribute and not to defend my life's work from ridiculous personal attacks. And yes, it has become pathetic. So I'll leave you to BS.


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## Faster

In many cases the hard vs soft dodger is a moot point... I think very few people ever fold/take down their 'soft' dodger anyhow, and as mentioned with good technique the weight is a non issue. Beyond that, as long as the dodger complements the boats' lines and doesn't become an unsightly block, the hard version will never fade, sag, leak or lose its stitching to UV....

The bigger questions may be why aren't there more of them. I do see more and more hybrids, hard top and canvas sides on a standard SS frame.


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## copacabana

Ron, the advantage of a full hard dodger, as I see it, is that it's part of the deck/cabin structure as can't leak and, as you mention, it's as durable as the boat itself. There are other advantages like being able to stand on the dodger to tie down a sail cover and to mount solar panels, antennas, radar domes and lights. The trick, as you point out, is getting it to look right, especially when it's an add-on after the boat was built. I believe that Perry fellow might know a thing or two about that....


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## smackdaddy

Capt Len said:


> Better the participants just put their peckers on the table and let some passing whore decide the measure of your maleness. At least it would be just as educational and perhaps oddly entertaining.


Quite an imagination there Len.


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## outbound

Unfortunately would have had to redesign traveler placement/mainsheet so windows do not open. Find with hatches opening forward and having the two ways to secure ( secure and opened a crack or fully closed) I can leave them open even with green water on deck and keep the interior of dodger dry. Of course in pleasant air they open fully. Saw this product from Sunbrella on some big sport fish. It's a fabric that comes in several densities. All block sun/heat from coming in but allow you to see out. Hoping it works in tropics/sub tropics but hear good things about it. Will see. Like the idea of clear not tinted glass to allow good night vision and ability to dodge debris/lobster traps when needed. So fabric will be taken off while underway especially coastal.


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## copacabana

Out, if your dodger is painted white, I wouldn't worry about heat in the cockpit. You'll be much cooler with the hard dodger than without it. The opening hatch in the windscreen is nice because with the boat pointing into the wind at anchor you get a nice breeze into the cockpit. Nice, but not essential.


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## GBurton

Don0190 said:


> Have to agree. I actually started reading the thread to read about steel boats, how foolish. Then I started reading the pissing battle. Now I read it because it is like looking at a car crash.


+ 100. The funniest part of it is how the word credibility has been thrown around. Do any of the major thread participants really believe that this thread has enhanced their credibility? It has revealed many to be shallow and willing to stoop to any level. I will not buy a Bob Perry boat purely on the basis of this thread.


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## smackdaddy

Hey - I never had any credibility to begin with! THAT is the funniest part.

There is one basic difference at the bottom of this whole "tinkling sesh"...Bob Perry doesn't "force" his views down people's throats...insulting them simply for thinking something different.

Just follow this thing back to the beginning in the Wolfenzee thread and you'll see where Brent started in on Bob...and never let up. To expect Bob not to respond to insults like that is ridiculous.

Let me just put it this way...Brent has been banished from virtually every web forum he's ever been on for exactly the same behavior you've seen here. Bob hasn't.

Do the math.


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## JomsViking

While a few harsh Words probably came from Bob's keyboard as well, why would you not buy a boat from a proven designer that defended himself against some pretty strong comments and far out "stories". Would you still consider a Brent Boat?
Heck Bob even said nice Things about Westsails while Brent did the opposite.





GBurton said:


> + 100. The funniest part of it is how the word credibility has been thrown around. Do any of the major thread participants really believe that this thread has enhanced their credibility? It has revealed many to be shallow and willing to stoop to any level. I will not buy a Bob Perry boat purely on the basis of this thread.


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## outbound

Bob is a class act. Comment is uncalled for in my opinion. His designs speak for themselves. Wish other N.A.s had the courage to go on sites such as these to share their wisdom. I for one greatly appreciate his presence. 

disclosure statement - my current boat was designed by Schumacher and one before by Crealock. Have owned Perry boats in past.


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## Jaramaz

Well, I would never by a Brent boat. - They are far too ugly.

Reading this thread, it is clear mr Swain is using very strange arguments, attacing everyone in sight.

/J


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## tdw

Ref the Dodger question, I'm pretty much with Copa. Our girl has a fixed screen with folding canvas top and fold down, roll up full cockpit enclosure.

Year or so back we went up the NSW coast in plus 35knots close hauled. Lots of spray and a very wet deck but no wet weather gear needed, didn't even wear shoes and my socks stayed warm and dry. 

In hot weather open the screen but cover keeps us shaded.


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## bobperry

"but no wet weather gear needed, didn't even wear pants and my balls stayed warm and dry."

Bragger


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## tdw

bobperry said:


> "but no wet weather gear needed, didn't even wear pants and my balls stayed warm and dry."
> 
> Bragger


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## blt2ski

BP,

Nice Fix to the poor wombats quote!

Got a CLOSE up of sliver today. Actually got inside the paint tent, and up the ladder on the stern.....oh, bow......oh.....STERN end. One hell of a BIG diam post for the rudder! 

Marty


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## blt2ski

Bob,

I wil not get into the how big, too big or small etc. I would assume you have that figured out for toughness etc. I think my boat is in the 1-2" range! So would assume that a 60' boat would be bigger by some portion etc.

Marty


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## outbound

Gonna hijack the thread given we're talking about dodgers and wheel houses. Love the looks of the PSC ketch Bob did. But wonder at what size do you think a wheel house,hard dodger or center cockpit be done with out it looking like a wedding cake motorboat. Took a real long look at the H.R.s before choosing the outbound. Thought until you got to size beyond my price range boat didn't flow. Its a great boat though. Similarly had opportunity to get a Shannon Aegean 50 but it needed too much work. Thought that was size where you could pull off hardtop dodger and center cockpit.


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## bobperry

Out:
Not sure size matters here so long as the designer has a good eye.
This little cartoon (I've posted before) has been turned into a real 28'er and in my opinion has turned out surpsingly good looking. Construction is now underway. I'll post some jpegs of it when I get some.


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## Faster

bobperry said:


> Out:
> Not sure size matters here so long as the designer has a good eye.
> This little cartoon (I've posted before) has been turned into a real 28'er and in my opinion has turned out surpsingly good looking. Construction is now underway. I'll post some jpegs of it when I get some.


Can I say 'cute'??  Did you retain the dodger shape/roofline on the real thing? To my eye that looks like a wee homage to Bill Garden.


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## bobperry

Faster:
Sure you can. My cartoons are designed to be cute.
my email adress is [email protected]

If someone wants to see some pdf's of the 28' "cartoon" just email me and I'd be happy to send them I'm just not very good at going from acad to pdf to jpeg. I can do it but I have trouble controlling thre size of the jpeg image. I'm very proud of my work and I hate to present it in a less than perfect manner. I'm odd that weay.


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## kimbottles

bobperry said:


> Faster:
> Sure you can. My cartoons are designed to be cute.
> my email adress is [email protected]
> 
> If someone wants to see some pdf's of the 28' "cartoon" just email me and I'd be happy to send them I'm just not very good at going from acad to pdf to jpeg. I can do it but I have trouble controlling thre size of the jpeg image. I'm very proud of my work and I hate to present it in a less than perfect manner. I'm odd that weay.


This is way worth doing, Bob sent them to me and I often look at that file because they are CUTE!


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## Dean101

This thread has been an ..... interesting ..... read, but not for the reasons I had hoped for. (Smack, that was quite possibly the longest and most entertaining "marketing" post I've ever seen!) I was hoping to learn something about steel boats and their qualities but that dream died many pages ago. I DO NOT believe for one second that steel is infallible. Brent's claims about shrugging off reefs and rocks with only scratched paint are ridiculous. I was on board the USS Carl Vinson back in '90 going through a seriously major storm when the ship slammed into a wave. After the damage control crews cleaned up the mess, we all got to see the damage caused to the foc'sle. The main beam in the stem was buckled and plate metal bulkheads much thicker than the skin of a Brentboat were dented from the where the caps to the hawse pipes blew into the space and ricocheted around, all from slamming into a wave. So Brent, I don't believe your claims one bit. 

I think steel has it's place as a material of choice but I don't believe it is the ONLY choice. I've seen much advice given and several books mention that steel hulls are a good choice for high latitude sailing but what about the more temperate areas? I'm not ready to discard a steel boat just yet but from everything I've heard, read, and experienced, it seems to require much more attention to corrosion than other materials. I've also read that condensation can be a problem unless it is insulated. Are they typically insulated only from the waterline up or are they also insulated below the waterline? It seems to me that sprayed insulation would make inspection and repairs problematic, especially while underway.


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## harmonic

I have been watching this thread with interest it seems people think any steely under 40 feet wont sail.When I was a kid my parents bought a 37 foot steel yacht round bilge fin keeler we sailed 10 000 miles in it and it sailed really well reaching at 8 knots on a good day.A lovely yacht only problem was the wooden decks wet beds on passage every time.last year my father bought a 32 foot steel kuiper a dutch yacht with a big rig and bowsprit,I have an old quarter tonne racing yacht and if I dont keep my hull clean and boat light I cant catch him.I think possibly some are really overbuilt and that gives the rest of them a bad name.They arent all slow by a long shot.


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## Faster

This thread did go off track for a while when things got personal, of course it's true that steel is just one of the choices for boat building, with it's advantages and disadvantages like any other.

Not wanting to perpetuate the Brent bash, his boats are what they are and they suit some.. as a counterpoint, even in Brent's backyard, look at Amazon and Waterline Yachts to see how good a steel boat can look.

World Cruiser Waterline 50 >> Designers and builder's of fine metal boats >> Waterline Yachts

1985 Amazon 37 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Europe, and Holland in particular, has a good rep/history for steel building, but as previously mentioned it's becoming a lost art in face of modern technology, materials, and methods.


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## Dean101

Those are both nice looking vessels. It does seem that the majority of boats that I see on sites like yachtworld are built of fiberglass.


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## Brent Swain

Dean101 said:


> This thread has been an ..... interesting ..... read, but not for the reasons I had hoped for. (Smack, that was quite possibly the longest and most entertaining "marketing" post I've ever seen!) I was hoping to learn something about steel boats and their qualities but that dream died many pages ago. I DO NOT believe for one second that steel is infallible. Brent's claims about shrugging off reefs and rocks with only scratched paint are ridiculous. I was on board the USS Carl Vinson back in '90 going through a seriously major storm when the ship slammed into a wave. After the damage control crews cleaned up the mess, we all got to see the damage caused to the foc'sle. The main beam in the stem was buckled and plate metal bulkheads much thicker than the skin of a Brentboat were dented from the where the caps to the hawse pipes blew into the space and ricocheted around, all from slamming into a wave. So Brent, I don't believe your claims one bit.
> 
> I think steel has it's place as a material of choice but I don't believe it is the ONLY choice. I've seen much advice given and several books mention that steel hulls are a good choice for high latitude sailing but what about the more temperate areas? I'm not ready to discard a steel boat just yet but from everything I've heard, read, and experienced, it seems to require much more attention to corrosion than other materials. I've also read that condensation can be a problem unless it is insulated. Are they typically insulated only from the waterline up or are they also insulated below the waterline? It seems to me that sprayed insulation would make inspection and repairs problematic, especially while underway.


Check out the law of mechanical similitude for a comparison between large boats and small ones in terms of the relative strengths .The bigger the boat the more marginal the strength becomes. Small steel boats are grossly over strength, super tankers marginal. An example would be the test I suggested to Smack. Take a tin can, sealed ( a condensed milk can with the holes soldered shut would work) Stand waist deep in water and try making a hole in it with an aluminium baseball bat . Now imagine a similar sized bat to can ratio on a super tanker. You wont make a hole in the can, no matter how hard you try, but the super tanker hit with a much larger bat that itself, would break up quickly. A small steel sailboat can pound on a lee shore for weeks without serious damage , but a super tanker in dry dock will break in half if the supports are not perfect. Shipyard workers can confirm this.
That is how the law of mechanical similitude works.
I have zero condensation inside my hull, despite living aboard her full time for 29 years. Spray foam eliminates it completely. It is however very important o heavily epoxy the inside, before spray foaming. Foam does not protect it reliably. Many commercially made boats ( Foulkes Fehr, Amazon ) have zero epoxy under the y foam, and rust from the inside out , sometimes rather quickly. Anywhere I have dug out sprayfoam, in my heavily epoxied interior , to install thru hulls, deck conduits, etc., the steel under it has been in perfect condition.
Spray foam should be carried to the floor boards. Some fish boats were foamed right down into the bilges and the foam acted like wicks, drawing bilge water high up, causing serious corrosion. Hulls and keels made out of only 1/8th plate doen't help any. You need a place for the water to drain out of the foam. Leave the foam out a foot either side of the centreline, and in any engine compartment .
On deck, the biggest maintenance problems are paint chipping of outside corners, Flat surfaces are far less problematic. If you have corrosion problems on flat surfaces, the paint is not thick enough or the steel under it was not clean enough ,before painting. Trimming al outside corners On a steel boat with stainless, can reduce maintenance by 80%
For marina queens, and "occasional use" boats , fibreglass is far less maintenance, than a steel boat. For full time, hard use, where a plastic boat would have cleats worked loose, things breaking , and deck leaks to constantly re-seal , workboat priorities prevail , and a steel boat becomes far less maintenance. 
Bob Perry, an indisputable expert on fibreglass, knows next to nothing about steel boats. Nor does Smack. Neither has any hands on experience building, , cruising in, or maintaining a steel boat over many decades .
Best get your steel boat info from those who have built or cruised in one successfully, over decades. Otherwise you are getting only misinformation spread by plastic boat salesmen.
To see what a small boat can take , check out the" ****** "photos on cruisers forum. That kind of impact would have cut a much larger boat in half.


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## outbound

Above post makes sense but seems to speak more for building in aluminum. In large commercial vessels the weight of the hull built in steel has less of an impact on performance. As size decreases this becomes a greater concern and the strength may be viewed as overkill. In short one is incurring unnecessary weight with need for greater sail area and larger engines. With aluminum strength,puncture resistance,weight are more in keeping with size and actual use. Although galvanic concerns exist issues with coating do not. Hence, one reads of the extensive use of aluminum but not not steel by Alaskans for their skiffs and high latitudes sailors for their hulls. Unpainted aluminum still allows a very aesethically pleasing hull.


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## outbound

Bob the cartoons are a hoot. Put a bunch in a kids book and that locomotive and his friends won't be smiling so much.


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Above post makes sense but seems to speak more for building in aluminum. In large commercial vessels the weight of the hull built in steel has less of an impact on performance. As size decreases this becomes a greater concern and the strength may be viewed as overkill. In short one is incurring unnecessary weight with need for greater sail area and larger engines. With aluminum strength,puncture resistance,weight are more in keeping with size and actual use. Although galvanic concerns exist issues with coating do not. Hence, one reads of the extensive use of aluminum but not not steel by Alaskans for their skiffs and high latitudes sailors for their hulls. Unpainted aluminum still allows a very aesethically pleasing hull.


 Unpainted aluminium in the tropics gets hot enough to fry eggs on. I had to paint the back of my aluminium dinghy white inside, so it wouldn't burn my feet. A couple I met in Tonga, in an unpainted aluminium boat, said it took them til2 AM to get to sleep because of the heat buildup during the day. It's extremely difficult to find effective antifouling paint which wont have electrolysis problems with aluminium. Aluminium welding is only 60% the strength of the surrounding metal while steel is 100%. Its far easier to screws up an aluminium weld , steel is far more forgiving and far less expensive. When the steel for my 36 was $3800 the aluminium was $20,000.
Most 36 ft steel boats are lighter than many plastic hulls, such as Westsails, Cape George cutters, Herreschoff Nerias, Ingrids, etc.
Steel is more corrosion prone above the waterline , where you can see it. and easily deal with it. Aluminium is more corrosion prone below the waterline , and happens more quickly, where it can go along way before you notice it. 
Some boats have been built in steel with aluminium cabin tops, which while being trickier, can save weight up high. I just replaced a plywood cabin top with aluminium, on a steel boat this spring . Worked out well.
Steel is far more abrasion resistant on coral or rocks should you go aground and is far more floating container resistant. You can build an engine driven portable welder for steel for under $50. Aluminium welding is far more complex . 
Check out the origamiboats site ( yahoo groups ) for more info.


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Gonna hijack the thread given we're talking about dodgers and wheel houses. Love the looks of the PSC ketch Bob did. But wonder at what size do you think a wheel house,hard dodger or center cockpit be done with out it looking like a wedding cake motorboat. Took a real long look at the H.R.s before choosing the outbound. Thought until you got to size beyond my price range boat didn't flow. Its a great boat though. Similarly had opportunity to get a Shannon Aegean 50 but it needed too much work. Thought that was size where you could pull off hardtop dodger and center cockpit.


Nothing like making a mockup of your wheelhouse on a boat or model, before building the final version. What looks good in a drawing can look a lot worse in 3D.


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## bobperry

It's an automatic in my office. I'm happy to provide examples.
I look forward to other examples from any other designer out there.

I work hard to provide to provide these design tools to my clients.


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## Brent Swain

harmonic said:


> I have been watching this thread with interest it seems people think any steely under 40 feet wont sail.When I was a kid my parents bought a 37 foot steel yacht round bilge fin keeler we sailed 10 000 miles in it and it sailed really well reaching at 8 knots on a good day.A lovely yacht only problem was the wooden decks wet beds on passage every time.last year my father bought a 32 foot steel kuiper a dutch yacht with a big rig and bowsprit,I have an old quarter tonne racing yacht and if I dont keep my hull clean and boat light I cant catch him.I think possibly some are really overbuilt and that gives the rest of them a bad name.They arent all slow by a long shot.


What makes some overweight is misplaced priorities, and redundant structural steel, such as transverse framing , etc. The steel would be far more useful in plate thickness than in transverse framing with thinner plate to compensate. I have seen a Tahiti ketch with 3,000 lbs of framing , and 1/8th inch hull plate . Without the framing , 3/8th plate would weigh the same and be a lot tougher ,and more corrosion resistant. With only 1/8th plate against such hard points , the framing increases the odds of holing.
Before putting in more steel, one should look for something which is structurally doing the same thing.


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## bobperry

Out:
You have no idea how many people have suggested that.
But I am a wee bit busy these days with new designs. I have a brand new custom design job. Husband and wife, skipper and cook off a very big, UK steel yacht. They cringe when I mention steel. So we will do alu and call it good. I had them up here at my crab shack all day today. I wanted to watch the SA but business is business. I wanted to watch the Seahawks. But busienss is business.

The cartoons I do for fun, as Christmas gifts for my friends. Sometimes I am contracted to do a cartoon for someone. MISS ALISON is a cartoon I did on commission. I charge $2,500 for a cartoon. It is very hard to make something look so easy. The cartoons are surprisingly time consuming. Besides,,,,it's art.


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Hey - I never had any credibility to begin with! THAT is the funniest part.
> 
> There is one basic difference at the bottom of this whole "tinkling sesh"...Bob Perry doesn't "force" his views down people's throats...insulting them simply for thinking something different.
> 
> Just follow this thing back to the beginning in the Wolfenzee thread and you'll see where Brent started in on Bob...and never let up. To expect Bob not to respond to insults like that is ridiculous.
> 
> Let me just put it this way...Brent has been banished from virtually every web forum he's ever been on for exactly the same behavior you've seen here. Bob hasn't.
> 
> Do the math.


The first disagreement I had with Bob was when he stated that any sailboat with a wheelhouse was a motor sailer even those without a motor of any kind.
The first one on this site was when he attacked Jeff for suggesting an outboard rudder , and proposed something inboard, far less structurally sound and simple , complicating the hell out of self steering.
One of the reasons I was banned from cruisers forums was for telling people that they are under no legal obligation in Canada to open the hatch for any water cop coming alongside . On that site, advocating sucking up to those who violate your civil rights is permitted , telling people what their right are is considered too political . Right wing posts are encouraged and not considered political . It's a cop and cop wanabe site. When a moderator, who doesn't cruise the BC coast, and doesn't even live here, started giving false information about cruising the BC coast in winter , something I have been doing for over 40 years, I corrected his disinformation ,which didn't make me popular. The contempt of A-holes is the sincerest form of flattery. I wasn't going to let any cruiser suffer the cost of disinformation , in winter. 
Bob, to his credit, was also banned from that site. Smack lies again( and again and again, etc. etc.)
Cruisers are being screwed up all too often by disinformation (much from inexperienced arm chair experts like Smack)
No, I don't feel guilty about correcting it, and defending the interests of cruisers. 
Bob said my boats are ugly and lumpy. Anyone can check out the origamiboats site, and the photos section, and see some of the best looking steel cruising boats anywhere, fair as any, from bare steel to finished, no filler necessary, quickly proving Bob's comments a deliberate lie .
So from that point on, why would anyone believe anything else he has to say?
The 50 thru hulls on a Beneteau was typo on my part. Bob is no stranger to typos . Anyone can cheaply buy one of the white plastic thru hulls, hit it with a hammer, to check out the point I make. The only other two I have been banned from, by the same person, in the same day , was a moderator advocating such flimsy plastic thru hulls or complex mild steel ones impossible to maintain, , when I pointed out that stainless 
pipe nipples welded in have given me no problems for decades and dozens of boats . I was told the reason for me being banned was for disagreeing with people. No one was banned for disagreeing with me. Friends who checked out that site said, they saw absolutely nothing which would remotely justify me being banned on either of those sites. Subsequently I was invited by Sully to participate in his site, due to my posts( cruising.stuffiminto.com)
Banned from three, by ego maniac moderators is not banned from all. I have participated on many others, I just got invited, by the owner, to participate on Sealegacy.com ,an interesting site, which has gone viral.
On Cruising.stuffiminto.com, Smack lies again ( and again and again and again) So why would anyone keep believing him on any issue? He even admitted he has no credibility!
Bob, with Smack's invitation followed me to cruising.stuffiminto.com. to continue their childish harrassment campaign against me, and they were quickly called on it.

I don't have the time for all the sites I'm signed up on.


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## bobperry

Sorry but you invent things I never did say. You have a problem with that. I wish you would stop doing it.

Yes, your boats are ugly and lumpy. I did say that. They stand as mute testiment.

But I want to go watch this TV show on Captain Cook. I have no wish to trade strupid personal attacks with you. You will have to attack yourself tonight.


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## bobperry

"The first disagreement I had with Bob was when he stated that any sailboat with a wheelhouse was a motor sailer even those without a motor of any kind."


Uhhh, right there Brent. Why invent such silly things?


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> The first disagreement I had with Bob was when he stated that any sailboat with a wheelhouse was a motor sailer even those without a motor of any kind.
> The first one on this site was when he attacked Jeff for suggesting an outboard rudder , and proposed something inboard, far less structurally sound and simple , complicating the hell out of self steering.
> One of the reasons I was banned from cruisers forums was for telling people that they are under no legal obligation in Canada to open the hatch for any water cop coming alongside . On that site, advocating sucking up to those who violate your civil rights is permitted , telling people what their right are is considered too political . Right wing posts are encouraged and not considered political . It's a cop and cop wanabe site. When a moderator, who doesn't cruise the BC coast, and doesn't even live here, started giving false information about cruising the BC coast in winter , something I have been doing for over 40 years, I corrected his disinformation ,which didn't make me popular. The contempt of A-holes is the sincerest form of flattery. I wasn't going to let any cruiser suffer the cost of disinformation , in winter.
> Bob, to his credit, was also banned from that site. Smack lies again( and again and again, etc. etc.)
> Cruisers are being screwed up all too often by disinformation (much from inexperienced arm chair experts like Smack)
> No, I don't feel guilty about correcting it, and defending the interests of cruisers.
> Bob said my boats are ugly and lumpy. Anyone can check out the origamiboats site, and the photos section, and see some of the best looking steel cruising boats anywhere, fair as any, from bare steel to finished, no filler necessary, quickly proving Bob's comments a deliberate lie .
> So from that point on, why would anyone believe anything else he has to say?
> The 50 thru hulls on a Beneteau was typo on my part. Bob is no stranger to typos . Anyone can cheaply buy one of the white plastic thru hulls, hit it with a hammer, to check out the point I make. The only other two I have been banned from, by the same person, in the same day , was a moderator advocating such flimsy plastic thru hulls or complex mild steel ones impossible to maintain, , when I pointed out that stainless
> pipe nipples welded in have given me no problems for decades and dozens of boats . I was told the reason for me being banned was for disagreeing with people. No one was banned for disagreeing with me. Friends who checked out that site said, they saw absolutely nothing which would remotely justify me being banned on either of those sites. Subsequently I was invited by Sully to participate in his site, due to my posts( cruising.stuffiminto.com)
> Banned from three, by ego maniac moderators is not banned from all. I have participated on many others, I just got invited, by the owner, to participate on Sealegacy.com ,an interesting site, which has gone viral.
> On Cruising.stuffiminto.com, Smack lies again ( and again and again and again) So why would anyone keep believing him on any issue? He even admitted he has no credibility!
> Bob, with Smack's invitation followed me to cruising.stuffiminto.com. to continue their childish harrassment campaign against me, and they were quickly called on it.
> 
> I don't have the time for all the sites I'm signed up on.


You're funny.

I never knew Cruiser's Forum meant this kind of cruiser:










You get banned more than me! And that's saying something!



Brent Swain said:


> On Cruising.stuffiminto.com, Smack lies again ( and again and again and again) So why would anyone keep believing him on any issue? He even admitted he has no credibility!


Brent, it's simple. Just because you say I'm lying about something doesn't mean, _by any stretch of the imagination_, that I'm lying. As a matter of fact, when _you_ say it, most people question it right off the bat. It's that credibility thing.

Why?

Look at your marketing compilation I put together, dude. That says it all. Of course, now it's all about "typos", or "hacked quotes", etc. None of it is what you "meant to say". Sorry dude. They're your words. You have to live by them. And that's a hard life.

Feel free to put a compilation together for all my "lies". I'm happy to take a look at what you come up with.

BTW - I'd like a video of you banging on your through-hulls with a hammer. I'd like to see just how strong they really are. I'm pretty comfortable in saying that no through-hull in the world was designed to be beaten on with a hammer.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Unpainted aluminium in the tropics gets hot enough to fry eggs on. I had to paint the back of my aluminium dinghy white inside, so it wouldn't burn my feet. A couple I met in Tonga, in an unpainted aluminium boat, said it took them til2 AM to get to sleep because of the heat buildup during the day. It's extremely difficult to find effective antifouling paint which wont have electrolysis problems with aluminium. Aluminium welding is only 60% the strength of the surrounding metal while steel is 100%. Its far easier to screws up an aluminium weld , steel is far more forgiving and far less expensive. When the steel for my 36 was $3800 the aluminium was $20,000.
> Most 36 ft steel boats are lighter than many plastic hulls, such as Westsails, Cape George cutters, Herreschoff Nerias, Ingrids, etc.
> Steel is more corrosion prone above the waterline , where you can see it. and easily deal with it. Aluminium is more corrosion prone below the waterline , and happens more quickly, where it can go along way before you notice it.
> Some boats have been built in steel with aluminium cabin tops, which while being trickier, can save weight up high. I just replaced a plywood cabin top with aluminium, on a steel boat this spring . Worked out well.
> Steel is far more abrasion resistant on coral or rocks should you go aground and is far more floating container resistant. You can build an engine driven portable welder for steel for under $50. Aluminium welding is far more complex .
> Check out the origamiboats site ( yahoo groups ) for more info.


BS Yachts Marketing Program


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## mark2gmtrans

Well, I had to actually do some work the last few weeks, an inconvenience to be sure, and I was away, but it seems not much is changed. BS has been up to his usual crazy claims, and Bob and Smack have been keeping up the challenges for him to at least attempt to be truthful, I see it has not worked, but it has been entertaining.

I will not be on as much, work has its drawbacks LOL. I wish you all well, and enjoy reading the discussions as often as I can, fair winds.

Mark


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## bobperry

See you soon Mark. It's good to be busy.


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> BS Yachts Marketing Program


I haven't seen a single post from Smack which provides a fraction the information in that post. He provides only disinformation.

The original question was pros and cons of steel sailboats . You interpreted that to mean cons only, no pros allowed( pun intended).
I mentioned the toughness of ****** , Trismus, Joshua , Pygmalion, etc etc.
No I didn't design or have anything to do with those boats, as you imply. You claim me giving any pros of steel boat amounts to self promotion , as if I were the only person on the planet building or designing steel boats. So would the reverse be true , any criticism of steel boats would amount to self promotion by Bob ( as if he were the only person on the planet designing plastic boats?)
Plastic is the best choice of material for "occasional use "boats , as I have stated many times, but among full time, experienced cruisers ,the percentage of steel boats rises considerably , and many in plastic boats would rather be in steel boats, as was so clearly pointed out in Jimmy Cornell's interviews with circumnavigators in his book "Modern Ocean Cruising." 
For long term cruising, I would put more faith in circumnavigators, than in armchair experts, with little or no long term cruising experience, especially those with zero such experience in steel boats .
Almost all advocates of steel boat pros not being allowed in this debate, have one thing in common. Zero steel boat building or long term cruising experience in steel boats.

Hammering on a plastic thru hull, then on a welded in stainless one, is a clear, undeniable demonstration of the relative strengths of each . Those who advocate against testing a plastic one, don't want to know how fragile they are. 
Mark would imply that any such test which told us which was strongest, would be "Untruthful" if it didn't say what he wanted it to say.
Ostriches don't burry their heads in the sand to avoid the obvious. People do!


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I haven't seen a single post from Smack which provides a fraction the information in that post. He provides only disinformation.


When you say I provide "disinformation", you have to remember that that post consists of your words, not mine. And that really seems to bother you. I'm glad you're finally admitting that there are some issues. It's an important step.

If you WANT to provide information that is useful, provide a worst-case, full budget for building and fitting out one of your 36' boats (worst-case meaning the builder is not spending years scrounging the dump for free stuff, but buying what is needed as thriftily as possible). We've already seen the figure of $35K...prior to being fitted out with equipment, instruments etc. So the $50K budget seems roughly accurate (though I honestly think an average builder would spend more than that all-in). A detailed spreadsheet with these numbers from you would certainly help a wannabe cruiser weigh the pros vs. cons of building a steel boat.

So...are you going to help that wannabe cruiser? Or just leave him hanging?


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## bobperry

Brent's on the warpath again. I think I'll take the cut off at the pass before his arrows catch up to me.

Quit being silly Brent. Relax, chill enjoy your success. You don't need this knee jerk defensiveness to prove your point. Most of us are not going to go out and beat on our hulls with hammers. But don't let me stop you. Whatever turns you on.


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## cruisingdream

smackdaddy said:


> You're funny.
> 
> I never knew Cruiser's Forum meant this kind of cruiser:


Wow ! My first car was a 1963 Galaxie 500 (2door) Thanks for jogging the memory smack.


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## outbound

Think I'm never getting another boat but if I do Monel is looking better and better ( tongue in cheek)


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## bobperry

Yeah ORACLE!!!!!!!!
Congrats ORACLE design team. You made a faster boat.

I just got new pics of the Sliver Project. I'll post them later. That is my way of presenting the "cons" to steel boats. You will not believe how fair the deck it.

Here is one shot. They are polishing the deck to get it ready for the contrasting non skid paint. The non skid will be laid out in "panels" to give it a more intersting look than just smearing nonskid over the entire deck.


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## Brent Swain

My clients are resourceful enough to avoid the extreme foolishness of buying the most expensive items they can find for everything on the boat. So your question is not only irrelevant, but insulting to them. Most buy a used main sail and hang it without doing anything to it, battens and all, then go sailing , getting around to a battenless mainsail later
All in mast furling mains have no roach and very few have battens, including your beloved Beneteaus .
Just met two more people wanting to build brentboats, in the last three days, both experienced, one very experienced in offshore voyaging. Just got a supper invite from one, after his viewing of this forum. Said we have a lot in common. Beautiful westerly is blowing that way. Sold a lot of books in the last few days .
What do all my critics in this debate have in common? Absolutely zero hands on experience in building, long term cruising in and maintaining a steel boat.
Steel boaters who read these posts, and don t oppose the disinformation of the critics, are passively allowing the resale value of their boats to be undermined by plastic boat salesmen ; again.
No problem for me, I'm retired ,and bought my gold in 1999 at under $300 an ounce.


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## bobperry

Cheer up Brent. It's not all that bad.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Yeah ORACLE!!!!!!!!
> Congrats ORACLE design team. You made a faster boat.
> 
> I just got new pics of the Sliver Project. I'll post them later. That is my way of presenting the "cons" to steel boats. You will not believe how fair the deck it.
> 
> Here is one shot. They are polishing the deck to get it ready for the contrasting non skid paint. The non skid will be laid out in "panels" to give it a more intersting look than just smearing nonskid over the entire deck.


Stuff no stronger than bondo on a steel deck. Some get artsy fartsy with their first deck job, but abandon it after some serious cruising, when having fun becomes greater priority, that giving a hoot what amateurs and gullible "style over substance" consumers think.
Land living is borrowing money to buy what you don't need to impress people you don't like. Some take that kind of thinking to the sea, sadly.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> My clients are resourceful enough to avoid the extreme foolishness of buying the most expensive items they can find for everything on the boat. So your question is not only irrelevant, but insulting to them. Most buy a used main sail and hang it without doing anything to it, battens and all, then go sailing , getting around to a battenless mainsail later


Then price everything used. It's really not that hard, Brent.

It's a shame that you, the most experienced authority on building and maintaining steel boats, refuse to help out the wannabe cruisers who are interested in a steel boat. The fact that you promote your boats without giving ANY kind of real numbers on what it takes to build it from start to finish is insulting to them.

Real costs may be irrelevant to you. But not to most sane people.

BS Yachts Marketing Program


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Steel boaters who read these posts, and don t oppose the disinformation of the critics, are passively allowing the resale value of their boats to be undermined by plastic boat salesmen ; again.
> No problem for me, I'm retired ,and bought my gold in 1999 at under $300 an ounce.


Ah, chum in the water. This ought to be good.

Prepare for the onslaught of outraged steel boaters....

(Keep in mind, Brent just told you to "eat cake".)

PS - Brent, what kind of royalties do Bob and I get for helping you sell more books?


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## bobperry

Some people like an "artsy" deck. Look at that shot looking aft from the cockpit. Note how fair the deck is. It's almost a shame to have to paint the non skid panels on but in a contrasting color they will add some interest.

This deck came out of a CNC female mold so it was very fair to begin with and did not need bondo.


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## outbound

Brent- over the last few weeks have had opportunity to socialize with owners of sisterships built in the last 2-3 yrs.
Couple of men leaving RI. to go through the Panama Canal to cruise the South Pacific.
Young man taking delivery in California then returning to oz with his bride and two infant children.
Mature couple of docs leaving R.I. to do the Salty Dog.
Young couple leaving R.I. to do Great Lakes for a couple of yrs. then caribe cruising
Us doing eastern us coast,caribe and then parts unknown.
This is just one small production builder. Believe if you got valiant owners or Tayana owners or PSC owners or bcc owners etc. the stories would be equally or more expansive. Statements about " plastic boat salesmen " are belayed by folks common knowledge.
Please accept glass,plank on frame,wood strip,cold molded, Al, carbon/foam, and steel all have undeniable merits. 
You mentioned using ss at corners. That was interesting. Please drop the blanket indictment of "plastic". You have knowledge of pros/cons of your material. Speak to that.
? How do you handle wiring?electronic?compass?bottom paint? Engine mounting?shaft?electrolysis prevention

Bob-that owner gonna smile every time he looks back from the dinghy. Priceless


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## bobperry

Out:
I think you are wasting your time with Brent. He's like a broken record and I don't believe you can change that. He seems pretty unhappy with his position in the world of boat building and that's too bad. His attacks on everything and person not in the BS style has become tiresome. But I suspect he's stick with that reaction having run out of anything more cogent.

I know these pics are not very exciting to most people but the FRANCIS LEE is fully "tented" in the yard right now to keep it clean while painting proceeds. So, I can't get any good photos right now. But these two shots of the bootstripe show just how fair the hull is. Look at the reflections of the scaffolding in the topsides.

I think you nailed it Out. The row away factor is going to be sky high on this boat. But Kim's very lucky. Much of the time the FRANCIS LEE will sit at the end of Kim's dock in front of his house or on his mooring in front of the house. I look forward to seeing the boat on my own mooing for a day or two.


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## SloopJonB

Not many cars have reflections that perfect, let alone boats.

Very high quality work.

How many hours were spent fairing up the hull? Just the paint prep hours, not including the "construction" fairing.


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## bobperry

Jon:
I can't tell you and I'm not sure Kim knows yet. Quite a few. Not sure if Kim even wants to know. But he is used to managing the money on big construction jobs so he is pretty fastideous when it comes to the money side of things. Maybe he'll chime in here. SDeems to me that aroiund four guys workjed for a wweek oin the hull fairing. The deck didn't need any fairing as it came out of a female mold and the mold was faired.


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## kimbottles

Many many hours. This is my pet project and I am not cutting any corners on it, but BS can relax, there is no debt involved in this project (except I am in Bob's debt for doing such an outstanding design.)


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## bobperry

That is sweet music to my ears.

See if you can spot the thru hull fittings.


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## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Jon:
> I can't tell you and I'm not sure Kim knows yet. Quite a few. Not sure if Kim even wants to know. But he is used to managing the money on big construction jobs so he is pretty fastideous when it comes to the money side of things. Maybe he'll chime in here. SDeems to me that aroiund four guys workjed for a wweek oin the hull fairing. The deck didn't need any fairing as it came out of a female mold and the mold was faired.


A man-month on the hull is not bad at all - I've seen way more than that go into a car body.


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## AlaskaMC

Brent Swain said:


> Land living is borrowing money to buy what you don't need to impress people you don't like. Some take that kind of thinking to the sea, sadly.


Geesh! You really just don't like anyone do you? Everyone that has a different opinion from you is WRONG. Anyone that thinks exactly like you is ENLIGHTENED.

How do you have any customers with an attitude like that? I would think it just a matter of time before even your biggest supporters didn't live up to your purity.

PS: I am a person that lived in a subsistence village for years in a VERY small cabin with kids, dogs etc. So understand that your generalizations just offend even those that may agree with you on some topics of the failings of society.

And one thing you simply do not calculate. I have skills that are marketable. Large sailboat building is not one of them. It makes more sense for some people to do what they are good at, make money, then purchase a boat from someone that is good at that. Financially it often makes no sense to build your own, or even get into a major fixer uper, when you can work in your chosen field and come out ahead. Exceptions;

A. You drop out of society in your 20s and never really develop high value skills. Sorry Brent, but the way your data in this discussion is layed out it seems very much amateurish. You are repeatedly asked for hard numbers and you deliver anecdotal evidence. This is not the sign of a true professional. Don't get me wrong, I don't fault someone that makes your choices, but it is hard for them to join a conversation with someone like Bob and have credibility while tossing around the kinda attacks you are posting.

B. You just enjoy the work for the sake of it (For example I build small boats as I find it fun and relaxing. Financially it makes no sense when you add up the man hours compared to what I would have made working in my field more. In fact I could buy lots of kayaks if I converted that time spent into money.

There are many people on this site that were supporting you at the beginning of this thread but you have stepped on everyone's opinions in the process of supporting your own. The easiest way in business to loose is to talk endlessly about what is wrong with the competition instead of touting the advantages of your own products. This thread will damage your business more than help, and that is sad because it could have been a big boost for you. Most (if not all) people get exhausted from endless negativity and just move on to someone less depressing.


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## unimacs

Interesting thread for me because my other hobby is cycling. Actually, it's more than a hobby, it's how I get to work. Anyway, in a cycling forum I belong to the merits of frame materials are debated constantly. Whether it's steel, aluminum, titanium, carbon fiber, or even bamboo.

Usually the discussion doesn't devolve into this level of mud-slinging though. Can't say I'm impressed, not that anyone should particularly care what I think.

The more level headed in the cycling forums seem to be in agreement that though various materials have their pros and cons, it comes down to matching the appropriate bike with the needs of the cyclist and that it's good to have choices. 

Even more important than what the bike is made out of is how it is designed, built and maintained. 

And even more important than that, is person who's riding it. Ultimately it's the rider that plays the biggest role in how the bike performs. It seems to me that this is also true of sailing. Ultimately having a good sailing experience comes down to what's between your ears. The best boat in the world can not compensate for a skipper that doesn't know what they're doing.

I'm thoroughly convinced that there are wood, steel, aluminum, and glass boats in the world that I would be more than happy to call my own.


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## AlaskaMC

bobperry said:


> I know these pics are not very exciting to most people but the FRANCIS LEE is fully "tented" in the yard right now to keep it clean while painting proceeds. So, I can't get any good photos right now. But these two shots of the bootstripe show just how fair the hull is. Look at the reflections of the scaffolding in the topsides.
> .


That is a very interesting pic. The reflection really does give you a great view of any faults (which of course there are none ) Makes me consider creating a grid to reflect off of jobs when fairing kayaks to use the straight lines as a way to see problems. Cool pic!


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## bobperry

Uni:
I would totally agree with you.
You'd get along well with Kim. He's a big time bike racer.

MC:
thanks for chiming in. I enjoyed your posts. Kids and dogs?
My kind of guy.


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## kimbottles

unimacs said:


> Interesting thread for me because my other hobby is cycling. Actually, it's more than a hobby, it's how I get to work. Anyway, in a cycling forum I belong to the merits of frame materials are debated constantly. Whether it's steel, aluminum, titanium, carbon fiber, or even bamboo......
> 
> ...........And even more important than that, is person who's riding it. Ultimately it's the rider that plays the biggest role in how the bike performs............


Same here, cycling is my other activity.......former serious racer.....I have steel, titanium and carbon bikes, never cared for aluminum bikes, but don't have a problem with others who ride them. To each his own.

Here I am climbing Alpe d'Huez


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## unimacs

kimbottles said:


> Same here, cycling is my other activity.......former serious racer.....I have steel, titanium and carbon bikes, never cared for aluminum bikes, but don't have a problem with others who ride them. To each his own.
> 
> Here I am climbing Alpe d'Huez


Sweet picture! I am not nearly so accomplished, - my competitions being limited to a few triathlons but I love the simplicity and the grace of a bike. I'm sure there's some connection there between that and my love of sailing. Both activities can be both relaxing and exhilarating.


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## kimbottles

Cycling and sailing: two great activities......


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## chall03

outbound said:


> You mentioned using ss at corners. That was interesting. Please drop the blanket indictment of "plastic". You have knowledge of pros/cons of your material. Speak to that.


+1

Problem with always dismissing Brent's posts as lunatical ramblings(which I now tend to do as a rule) is that every now and then he does actually say something worthwhile.


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## AlaskaMC

bobperry said:


> Kids and dogs?


How can you go wrong with that combination! 


Here is one of my girls and my dog. There is a choc lab running around in there somewhere too.

This is our old living room, dining room, brewing room etc. Lived there for years. But, I guess we were just trying to keep up with people we didn't like. 

The Portuguese Water Dog is really a neat breed. Are they into water as much as the name would suggest?


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## bobperry

MC:
Yes. Ruby, our PWD, is out on the beach many times during the day. She is usually wet by 7:30am. I go fishing almost every morning and she aways goes in the water. She chases seals and seagull, herons, pretty much anything. She is pertpetually wet. But she is a lot of fun. Demanding but fun. She does not shed so tomorrow she goes into the groomers. She hates that.

I have a mixed breed dog too. Freda. We found her on the beach, starving 12years ago. She is a German Shepard type mix and a wonderful dog. Quite protective of my wife.

Ruby took to Freda quickly when she was a pup. Freda puts up with Ruby. Ruby is my second PWD. They are the ultimate boat dog.

Where do you live in Alaska?


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## AlaskaMC

Great dogs! Love the pics. Our Shepherd and Lab were raised in the water as both my wife and I have been WW guides in the past. I have pics of Brodie (the white one) asleep in a class 4 rapid at my feet with customers in the boat. They are both up there in years now so even walks are getting tough on them at 12 years. Hardest part of having dogs for sure.

We used to be up by Denali National Park in a town called Cantwell. Still have our cabin there in fact. But, we recently moved north of Anchorage into what folks call "the valley" up here. Palin country as it were. Beautiful place and it has been nice to get a break from the EXTREME cold and be down by the coast.


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## bobperry

MC:
Thanks. That's me modelling my new eye glass frames for my buddy who sent them to me. He sells them and he is very picky about what frames I wear. Me? Not so picky.

I'd love to visit Denali. I like to fish. Sounds like you have had an exciting time.

Freda is getting stiff now too. It hurts me when she chooses not to go for a walk. We have had a load of wealks over the years. She has gone to work with me pretty much every day since we found her. Now I work at home so it's easier. You must visit some time.


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## AlaskaMC

Bob;

Anytime you want to see Denali you have hosts and a place. 100+ fish days on fly or light gear is pretty insane. We have had a great time up here. Alaska has been good to us. 

Lots of steel boats up here too as you might imagine. Bring a hammer. (weak gesture at keeping thread on its wobbly course )


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## outbound

Still have a question for Brent or anyone knowledgeable about steel. When I was taught MIG/TIG welding my teacher told me one of the great features of steel frame/plate construction was the ease of repair given the plate "floats" on the frames. Hence, with either radius or hard chine construction one can cut out portions or whole frames/plates and replace with restoration to original fairness and strength. Given even with radius chine "simple" curves are employed.One can buy or fabricate these curves. Therefore, using tabs with a come along suffice to place new material properly. What I don't understand is how this can be done in frameless construction such as origami given plate is formed to shape in basically the same way as "tortured" wood construction.

P.S.- a dog, a baby and a motorcycle helmet. What's not to love. Only thing missing is they should all be in the cockpit of a sail boat.


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## bobperry

Out:
What are you saying here:
"origami given plate is formed to shape in basically the same way as "tortured" wood construction."

What are you calling "tortured wood construction"?

I imagine that in a Bret boat you would have to do some shaping to the plate to make a fair repair. If not you would have another flat spot. That could be similar to repairing a hole in a cold molded or strip planked wooden boat. Is that what you mean by "tortured"?


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## SloopJonB

AlaskaMC said:


> Bob;
> 
> Anytime you want to see Denali you have hosts and a place. 100+ fish days on fly or light gear is pretty insane. We have had a great time up here. Alaska has been good to us.
> 
> Lots of steel boats up here too as you might imagine. Bring a hammer. (weak gesture at keeping thread on its wobbly course )


One of my all time favourites about Alaska was an interview with a barmaid. She was asked about the reputed 12-1 ratio of men to women there and replied "Yes, the odds are good but the goods are odd".


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## outbound

Sorry for the poor expression. Think in forming the hull the way origami is done complex curves are produced. Think with other construction techniques reproducing the simple or complex curvatures would be more easily done. Would think one could mold off the mirror image from the opposite undamaged side but is still left with the problem of shaping. Wondering how repairs to plate are done to origami or other frameless construction. Steel stretches when dented. For a segment big enough to want to fix or an area where plate thickness has been thinned due to rust you seem to have problem. How is this dealt with ?


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## bobperry

"Sorry for the poor expression."

You are forgiven. I know how this is done in a timber boat but I rely on Brent to advise us on how he would do it in one of his boats. You can't exactly plane down the edges in a steel boat.


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## AlaskaMC

SloopJonB said:


> One of my all time favourites about Alaska was an interview with a barmaid. She was asked about the reputed 12-1 ratio of men to women there and replied "Yes, the odds are good but the goods are odd".


That is a commonly used phrase up here believe it or not. During the first few months up here my wife and I were at a bar near our house and we were all laughing that she was the ONLY one in the bar without a full on long white beard. And believe me, the goods in that bar were very odd (including myself so no fingers pointed).


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## AlaskaMC

outbound said:


> . What I don't understand is how this can be done in frameless construction such as origami given plate is formed to shape in basically the same way as "tortured" wood construction.
> 
> P.S.- a dog, a baby and a motorcycle helmet. What's not to love. Only thing missing is they should all be in the cockpit of a sail boat.


I have done some "tortured" wood kayak building, or at least I have heard that phrase applied to getting multiple complex bends and shapes out of a single piece of ply. You can see how the deck gets twisted in multiple ways. Is this how Origami steel building works? I always assumed it was more "folds" without those complex convex curves. A bunch of flat surfaces.



My girl in that pic is ready for some AC72 racing in that helmet! Really though we were about to go out for a mountain ride on the snow machine with dogs a chasing. Fun times for sure. Now she is 5 and is already my jib trimmer.


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## Jeff_H

The term that I know is 'tortured plywood'. As we know, plywood (and plate steel a use in origami construction) is really only able to produce 'conic sections'. While steel can be formed into compound curves, plywood normally cannot be twisted into compound curves. 

Tortured plywood uses thin layers of plywood, and some framing to force the plywood into mildly compound curves. It was pioneered by the folks doing plywood multihulls, but you see it in other narrow hull forms such as kayaks and in boats with minimal rocker such as high performance skiffs. 

Jeff


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## bobperry

Nice kayak MC. Too bad you don't have a nice place to paddle it.
Bears and bugs.
I'd like to fish that lake.


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Sorry for the poor expression. Think in forming the hull the way origami is done complex curves are produced. Think with other construction techniques reproducing the simple or complex curvatures would be more easily done. Would think one could mold off the mirror image from the opposite undamaged side but is still left with the problem of shaping. Wondering how repairs to plate are done to origami or other frameless construction. Steel stretches when dented. For a segment big enough to want to fix or an area where plate thickness has been thinned due to rust you seem to have problem. How is this dealt with ?


Lots of longitudinals across the affected area and well beyond, will keep it fair while doing repairs. You can even use temporary longiitudinals on the outside , removing them after final welding is done.


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## bobperry

"Fair" can be very subjective.

This shot of the stern of my FRANCIS LEE is what I consider fair.


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## outbound

Brent please exbound. Give us a step by step. Don't understand.


Bob that's truly fair.


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## bobperry

Out:
I have a well tuned eye and "fair" to me as an "absolute", objective description. Not subjective. I always try to be fair.

I understood what Brent said and it made perfect sense. I won't try to explain it. That's Brent's job. But I can see how it would work.


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## tommays

No fairing on my fillet brazing just PAINT

I look at masterpieces of welding every day and so does the rest of the world they just don't realize it

I am fairly sure from my pharmaceutical work the boat would cost way to much money to build it fair


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## bobperry

Nice work Tom. Wait till Kim sees this. He's a bike nut.


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## kimbottles

bobperry said:


> Nice work Tom. Wait till Kim sees this. He's a bike nut.


Very Nice!! I love a good steel frame!

Here's my favorite.


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## blt2ski

While at CSR today, it appeared from outside the shed sliver is still in a paint tent? Did not get a chance to look and see what was new etc.

Marty


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## kimbottles

blt2ski said:


> While at CSR today, it appeared from outside the shed sliver is still in a paint tent? Did not get a chance to look and see what was new etc.
> 
> Marty


Still need to paint the nonskid......


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## outbound

Wonder will you guys weld up a boat?


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## Dean101

Brent Swain said:


> Check out the law of mechanical similitude for a comparison between large boats and small ones in terms of the relative strengths .The bigger the boat the more marginal the strength becomes. Small steel boats are grossly over strength, super tankers marginal. An example would be the test I suggested to Smack. Take a tin can, sealed ( a condensed milk can with the holes soldered shut would work) Stand waist deep in water and try making a hole in it with an aluminium baseball bat . Now imagine a similar sized bat to can ratio on a super tanker. You wont make a hole in the can, no matter how hard you try, but the super tanker hit with a much larger bat that itself, would break up quickly. A small steel sailboat can pound on a lee shore for weeks without serious damage , but a super tanker in dry dock will break in half if the supports are not perfect. Shipyard workers can confirm this.
> That is how the law of mechanical similitude works.
> I have zero condensation inside my hull, despite living aboard her full time for 29 years. Spray foam eliminates it completely. It is however very important o heavily epoxy the inside, before spray foaming. Foam does not protect it reliably. Many commercially made boats ( Foulkes Fehr, Amazon ) have zero epoxy under the y foam, and rust from the inside out , sometimes rather quickly. Anywhere I have dug out sprayfoam, in my heavily epoxied interior , to install thru hulls, deck conduits, etc., the steel under it has been in perfect condition.
> Spray foam should be carried to the floor boards. Some fish boats were foamed right down into the bilges and the foam acted like wicks, drawing bilge water high up, causing serious corrosion. Hulls and keels made out of only 1/8th plate doen't help any. You need a place for the water to drain out of the foam. Leave the foam out a foot either side of the centreline, and in any engine compartment .
> On deck, the biggest maintenance problems are paint chipping of outside corners, Flat surfaces are far less problematic. If you have corrosion problems on flat surfaces, the paint is not thick enough or the steel under it was not clean enough ,before painting. Trimming al outside corners On a steel boat with stainless, can reduce maintenance by 80%
> For marina queens, and "occasional use" boats , fibreglass is far less maintenance, than a steel boat. For full time, hard use, where a plastic boat would have cleats worked loose, things breaking , and deck leaks to constantly re-seal , workboat priorities prevail , and a steel boat becomes far less maintenance.
> Bob Perry, an indisputable expert on fibreglass, knows next to nothing about steel boats. Nor does Smack. Neither has any hands on experience building, , cruising in, or maintaining a steel boat over many decades .
> Best get your steel boat info from those who have built or cruised in one successfully, over decades. Otherwise you are getting only misinformation spread by plastic boat salesmen.
> To see what a small boat can take , check out the" ****** "photos on cruisers forum. That kind of impact would have cut a much larger boat in half.


Brent, I work in the construction industry. The construction industry uses all different kinds of materials to get the job done. The one thing that is indisputable is that each material has it's strengths and weaknesses. There is no such thing as a material that works best in every single application. I've read enough of your posts to see that you are no different than a "plastic boat salesman". You tout the near mythical greatness of your own work while cramming your impressive experience with steel down everyone's throat and at the same time you feel the need to dismiss the opinions or material preferences of others. Are you an expert in "plastic boats"? You state in effect that the likes of Bob Perry, whom I would consider an expert in the "plastic" field, or Smackdaddy, an apparent leader in the art of research, have no right to comment about the con's of steel because they don't have your experience with it and yet you seem to have the right to continuously dismiss "plastic" when I seriously doubt that you can approach the experience level of Mr. Perry or have even a minute idea of the research Smack has put in on the subject.

I've read your posts in order to pick out the occasional gold nugget of experience, like your suggestion of trimming in stainless or the importance of thoroughly cleaning steel prior to applying epoxy but all the other negative rhetoric you include does not make me want to go out of my way to find them. You're an expert in steel. You're one of the supreme few that has designed, built, maintained, sailed, cruised, lived on, rammed a reef, and wrote a book about steel boats. I think we all get it by now. Good for you. I won't speak for anyone else but I know I'm sick of reading about it. It would be nice if you would self edit your posts to remove the attitude and the "steel boat salesman" crap prior to hitting "reply". I would be just as happy if you didn't respond to any of my posts at all.


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## kimbottles

The sad thing is that Brent apparently does have good valuable information to share, however his positive nuggets of information get lost when instead of simply sharing his knowledge with us in a positive way he feels the need to slam and put down everyone else and every other boat building material. 

The irony is that if he would stop the attacks and simply share his knowledge in a positive way he might gain the respect he apparently craves.


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## Dean101

kimbottles said:


> The sad thing is that Brent apparently does have good valuable information to share, however his positive nuggets of information get lost when instead of simply sharing his knowledge with us in a positive way he feels the need to slam and put down everyone else and every other boat building material.
> 
> The irony is that if he would stop the attacks and simply share his knowledge in a positive way he might gain the respect he apparently craves.


I totally agree with you. He does seem to have a lot of experience working with steel. He's just way to aggressive in advocating it.


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## blt2ski

Dean,

I would agree that many types of material have ways of making a proper item, having also worked in construction. Solid concrete walls in some places are better than block walls, other places, blocks are better. Concrete pavers can be better than solid poured concrete vs asphalt. All products I have worked with in landscapes. 

Can say the same for different types of wood for decks, fences etc. At the end of the day...which is best.....yeah right! 

I also have not been told how much a steel 8' pram would wiegh either. I asked that a while back. I doubt it would be less than 50 lbs as one can buld an El Toro 0r equal. I could probably use kevlar or carbon and epoxy and build it to less than 25-35 lbs. ALL building materils have plus and minus's to them.

Marty


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## bobperry

Yeah but Marty, if you build a steel El Toro you could shoot it.
Shoot the bull.

It does sound like a fun project.


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## Dean101

blt2ski said:


> Dean,
> 
> I would agree that many types of material have ways of making a proper item, having also worked in construction. Solid concrete walls in some places are better than block walls, other places, blocks are better. Concrete pavers can be better than solid poured concrete vs asphalt. All products I have worked with in landscapes.
> 
> Can say the same for different types of wood for decks, fences etc. At the end of the day...which is best.....yeah right!
> 
> I also have not been told how much a steel 8' pram would wiegh either. I asked that a while back. I doubt it would be less than 50 lbs as one can buld an El Toro 0r equal. I could probably use kevlar or carbon and epoxy and build it to less than 25-35 lbs. ALL building materils have plus and minus's to them.
> 
> Marty


Agreed.

Almost every book I've read on sailing and cruising states that boats are compromises. Brent seems to think that if you want to cruise or circumnavigate, steel is the way to go while fiberglass is great for the "marina queens". Quite frankly, I think almost all sailors fall in the middle with occasional leanings in each direction. I would think that even circumnavigators spend some well deserved rest at dockside or tucked away in a cove. Looking at posts from new sailors they almost invariably have dreams of long excursions or blue water sailing. And has there ever been a sailor that has remained in colder climes without visiting a tropical destination or vice versa? As long as the owner of the boat is doing with it as they wish and it makes them happy, the boat is serving it's purpose.

I think the material the boat is built out of is one of those compromises that each individual sailor must make depending on their unique needs and requirements.


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## AlaskaMC

bobperry said:


> Yeah but Marty, if you build a steel El Toro you could shoot it.
> Shoot the bull.
> 
> It does sound like a fun project.


Think of the great names you could give a steel boat!

Hammer Time
Reef Eater
Target Practice

Ok now I feel bad for making fun.


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## bobperry

Iron Maiden

Steel Away

Bunker

Crusty the Ketch

Steel Crazy


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## blt2ski

Steel a bum

Ice breaker


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## smackdaddy

I still like "Anvil Of The Sea".










Is it just me or is that a pretty crappy-looking curve on that forward starboard side? That's gonna take a lot of filler.


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## Lou452

Steel might be nice. Time and money not so much. I would love a well built steel boat. Better yet aluminum, maybe SS. ? The $ factor rules ! Wood is nice also but look at the upkeep. Plastic is the bang for the buck despite its drawbacks it has the lead.
Would I sleep ok with most average welders that can run a bead not a chance.
The skill set needed to finish a steel boat is likely to be beyond the reach of the average Joe. Even if you can learn to be a proficient welder before you start the project who is going to qc and who is going to x-ray One more skill to hire out. Even if I weld it a few of the joints will need to have a few x-ray shots in critical areas No one is perfect no material is perfect I say this with over 300+ x-ray pipe welds on just this last job site. Will my next one be good? I pray it will. I can not tell you 100%
Plastic also rules in pipe. It is less expensive. Skill level to install is much lower. Is better? I think you need to look at the end use. 
If the average Joe just started to install Steel I beams and then put pipe in his rack and run electric, in the cable trays it would scare me to be near it.
I am enjoying this thread. Lets be nice skip the insults.
I would like to see some kind of cost spread sheet I will give way and say you need a range. Even plastic has a range depending on who makes this 36 foot boat. Raw material should have a cost range and grade. This is true for plastic wood or metal Grade it Price it for us please. I could get a idea just by the tonnage ?
Kind Regards, Lou


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## bobperry

I have quite a collection of bids Lou for my custom boats but I don't think they are broken down exactly the way you would like. They generally are broken down in progress payments rather than materials specific costs. I think I know what you are after and I'm sure it's avaiable for the Sliver Project. Kim is a CPA. I am also certain that Kim has no intention of posting the costs on a public forum. Brent may have this info available as it must be necessary when selling plans to a home builder on a tight budget.


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## Lou452

Just ball park some figures ? a 32 foot steel 32 foot glass of comparable hull use type. I and everyone else knows steel will cost more, Lets ball park a price.
steel must be good for end use or they would make the large ships of it.
What tonnage, length dose one need to make steel worth it.


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## blt2ski

Lou,

The ball park where steel may make sense in a $$ standpoint, seem to be somewhere in the 40-60' range. Along with if one is going to go "POLAR" sailing if you will. IE the more north or south you go, steel makes sense to a degree from a sailing thru ice standpoint. We should also remember the Titanic when we say this too.....but would swag they were going in the mid teen speed wise, when most ice breakers etc are probably less than 2-5 knots of boat speed, so the ice will not tear up the hull as bad!

At the end, there is really no right or wrong from a which material you use. 

Marty


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## outbound

Another variable not fully explored in this thread is where you sail and expect to service your boat. As Brent said "plastic" is a dime a dozen. Virtually all yards have much experience with it as do most sailors. Wood in it's various techniques is most unfortunately be coming a lost art although IMHO cold molded wood/epoxy or strip plank with appropriate skins maybe the best material for the sailing most of us do. Similarly, skilled workers in Al are limited and you run the risk of someone not familiar with the material doing a modification that may degrade the integrity of the vessel. But it is probably the best material for long term cruising off the grid, especially high latitude.
Large vessels are built to the economic reality of a "service life". Many never come out of the water or undergo the extensive refits that we subject our "true loves" to. 
We all have many 50+ year old wood boats and "plastic" boats in our harbors being actively used and enjoyed. Don't see that many metal boats of that kind of age being sailed unless they are of extraordinary pedigree.


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## blt2ski

Out,

You or maybe we all forgot that concrete stuff for boat hulls too! I heard that is pretty cheap to work with..............

Not many of them around either.

Marty


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## blt2ski

Oh, should not BS like them concrete ones since they have steel mesh or some such thing int hem?


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## outbound

Seems like that was the major issue and the cause of many finely constructed ferrocement boats being uninsurable. From what I recall most home builders could get the proper set up of the concrete but when construction was done incorrectly the steel would degrade inside the hull. This was undetectable without major interrogation so after multiple claims insurance became basically unobtainable. Don't think it's even used for barges now. Hear it's becoming increasingly difficult to get insurance or slip dockage for old plank on frame as well. Think that just stupid as if well maintained and refastened when needed those are solid sea boats.


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## blt2ski

Not sure I would want a barge out of concrete, much less a boat. Altho I cross three different bridges that are made of concrete and float! They seem to do ok. But I am sure the build process is one heck of a lot more looked at, speced etc too!

Then not being ablt to more a plank on frame! Again, not sure how many local fishing boats have that style of build still. Altho steel is the new thing for new ones in the 60-100+ ft range. Probably cheaper vs frame and double planked bottoms, alogn with at times stronger etc when built properly!

Marty


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## outbound

fish boats around here are pretty much all steel if trawlers of 50+ feet and about 80% grp if smaller. Starting to see aluminum more and more in all sizes given low maintenance. none are frameless to my knowledge.


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## bobperry

Delta Marine of Seattle built some very big all grp fishing boats in the 70's and recently have started building more in grp. They are magnificent vessels and beautfully designed.
They have also built some all grp mega yachts. Large grp boats was their speciality. Jose over on CA is part of their very skilled design team. He was once a student of mine at Evergreen State College.


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## blt2ski

Bob,

I agree, that Delta builds some LARGE boats. I saw one a few months back getting launched. Now I can not remember the name, altho I posted about it a few months back too. Greek name IIRC. BIG WHITE thing.... beautiful boat.

Then they have the all steel thing that has been sitting there for a few yrs, due to incorrect steel from the assembler in SAfrica. Not sure what is going to happen to that hulk.....

any way, need to go off to work, as some say, I owe I owe, off to work we go! or some such thing.

Marty


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## outbound

Seems the megayachts are also flipping to synthetics. Maybe that way the limpet mines won't stick to them.(LOL). If I ever get old and rich enough could see a grp Norhaven in my future. Fishing fleet here has been decimated by catch and days at sea restrictions. My sense not too much new construction going on unfortunately. On this subject you guys are on the "right" coast.


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## SloopJonB

outbound said:


> Fishing fleet here has been decimated by catch and days at sea restrictions.


The fishing fleets both there and here have been decimated by overfishing, pure & simple. The incredible incompetence and stupidity of our federal fisheries department that allowed the Grand Banks cod fishery to be wiped out beggars belief.

The situation here on the Wet coast is not quite that bad but it's close. They still haven't been able to grasp the connection between the herring fishery and the decline of the salmon fishery. For that matter they can't seem to connect the huge factory type ships and the resultant overfishing either.

The only people in the entire fishing world that seem to have any brains at all are the sport fishers - it seems everyone else is in it for what they can get, politically or financially, with no thought of the future.


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## Brent Swain

blt2ski said:


> Oh, should not BS like them concrete ones since they have steel mesh or some such thing int hem?


My first boat was concrete. She broke up on a Fijian coral reef in conditions which would not have damaged a steel boat in any way.
No need to work in concrete any more. You get given one ,use it until you are able to get a steel hull together, then transfer all the goodies over to the steel one.
The reason there are so few older steel boats is the builders never felt the need to paint the inside properly, resulting in them rusting out from the inside. A simple inside epoxy job wold have eliminated that problem. Another reason is the labourious, outdated building methods used, couldn't compete with fibreglass, when resin was cheap( a long, long time ago.) Newer building methods and the high cost of fibreglass materials have reversed this, for new boats. Hands on long distance cruising experience increases the demand for steel boats, in proportion to the skipper's offshore cruising experience. ( See Jimmy Cornel's book "Modern Offshore Cruising)
Mass marketing flooded the market with FG boats . So many they sometimes can't give them away.


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Seems like that was the major issue and the cause of many finely constructed ferrocement boats being uninsurable. From what I recall most home builders could get the proper set up of the concrete but when construction was done incorrectly the steel would degrade inside the hull. This was undetectable without major interrogation so after multiple claims insurance became basically unobtainable. Don't think it's even used for barges now. Hear it's becoming increasingly difficult to get insurance or slip dockage for old plank on frame as well. Think that just stupid as if well maintained and refastened when needed those are solid sea boats.


Any concrete boat which has lasted this long, since they were last building them, has no problem with steel corrosion inside the concrete. If they did, it would have broken up long ago.
If they are cheap enough ,they are disposable. So who needs insurance on a freebe?


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> I still like "Anvil Of The Sea".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it just me or is that a pretty crappy-looking curve on that forward starboard side? That's gonna take a lot of filler.


As one famous artist said "Fools and children should never be allowed to se a work of art incomplete. 
Before pulling the bow together, we carefully measure the point, equidistant from the point of the stem, on both sides, where we match the two halves when pulling them together. Some times when we tack the two halves together at that point, you would swear there is no way they will match. As they come together they end up matching up perfectly, as perfect as your measurements.
Smack has just been banned from another site, when it became obvious to the moderator that his only reason for being there was to attack every word I posted , and any suggestion of innovation , of any kind. 
CBC radio , this morning , reported that Popular Science has eliminated its "comments " post. They said that it had been taken over by "mouth breathing , knuckle dragging morons, who's favorite pastime was to attack everything posted, regardless of content, undermining science, their reason for publishing in the first place. 
They said the internet, once with huge potential for advancement in any field , was being wrecked , and rendered useless as a discussion of potential advancements, by a gang of trolls, who attack every thing said, regardless of content.
Sound familiar?

I once saw a steel boat called "Irony"
A client had one called " Rumplesteelskin" which he sold in Fiji to build one of mine . No rumples in the new one.
Other names I have seen, good for any kind of sailboat.
"Between The Sheets"
"Blew By You"

This could be an entertaining subject


----------



## bobperry

Smack is no longer banned. His ban lasted 24 hours. He was banned for posting direct quotes from Brent Swain. How crazy is that?

Perhaps you need to read today's post by the moderator on that site before blaming Smack. You do not come out of looking very good Brent. But attack away. Its seems to be your only style.

As my friend said today, "What the hell is a Brent Swain?"


----------



## Brent Swain

kimbottles said:


> The sad thing is that Brent apparently does have good valuable information to share, however his positive nuggets of information get lost when instead of simply sharing his knowledge with us in a positive way he feels the need to slam and put down everyone else and every other boat building material.
> 
> The irony is that if he would stop the attacks and simply share his knowledge in a positive way he might gain the respect he apparently craves.


I only respond to attacks on the information I give , from those who have no experience in my field. Such attacks, left unchallenged, would be accepted as fact ,were they left unchallenged.
This discussion is about pros and cons of steel boats. Compared to which alternatives? Some interpret that as "only cons allowed."
I am the only person posting responses to attacks on steel as a material, who has any long distance, long term cruising , building, maintaining and designing experience, on steel boats , on this thread. Without my postings , only cons, from people with almost zero experience in the subject at hand, would be posted here. This kind of one sided disinformation would be a disservice to anyone seeking reliable information on the subject, or a credible answer to the original question here.
There is no denying Bobs expertise in FG boats ,in which he is one of the foremost experts in the world. That doesn't automatically make him an expert in all matters nautical, including a material he has almost zero experience in building, maintaining and cruising in. You wouldn't allow someone's qualifications as a rocket scientist pass as qualifications for him to do open heart surgery on you.
Suggestions that a fibreglass boat is as strong as a steel boat, with welded down lifelines, mooring bits, hatch hinges and coamings etc etc , must be challenged, regardless of how self evident the lie is. Such disinformation costs lives .
Stainless is around 95,000 psi tensile strength. According to Kasten ,marine aluminium is 45,000 psi tensile strength. To be the same strength the cross section of stainless, aluminium must be slightly greater than twice the cross section of stainless.
Smack's claim that the cross section of the 3/16th stainless shackle on a Garhaur block is more than half the cross section of the 3/16th by 1 1/4 inch becket X2 on my blocks, or that the cross section of the thin stainless becket on a garhaur is more than half that of the 1 1/4 by 3/16th becket on my blocks , is bull, which must be challenged , lest it mislead anyone into blowing their cruising funds needlessly on over priced gear, with no functional advantage whatsoever.


----------



## bobperry

No Brent I AM an expert on ALL THINGS NAUTICAL. No question about that. All things.

What a foolish thing this is to say. But you can't help yourself. You have to attack. I'm sure a lot of the people here will greatly appreciating you pointing that out to them.

I just design boats and I'm happy that people keep asking me to design more. I like my job. I'm pretty darn good at it so it seems.

Let's have some fun. I'll make a list of all the famous designers who neverv went world cruising. Maybe you guys can add to the list because I think I'llm stop when my typing finger gets tired.

Designers who never went world cruising:
Olin Stephens
Bruce Farr
Laurie Davidson
K. AAge Nielsen
Bill Atkin
Bill Garden
Charles Withotz
Charley Gilmer
Bill Lapworth
Doug Peterson
Bruce King
Ron Holland
Mark Mills
Gary Mull
Carl Schumacher
Bill Tripp
Skip Calkins
Carl Alberg
Bill Shaw
Chuck Paine
Ted Brewer
Dick Carter
Jim Taylor
German Frers
Ted Hood
L. Francis Herreshoff
Dieter Empacher
Uffa Fox

I'll add my own name to the list because its a list I am very proud to be on. Although I suppose Brent has no respect for any of those named. If you like go ahead and add to the list.

Lets see:
Bob Perry
Ben Seaborn.
Ed Monk
George Cuthbertson
George Cassian
Bill Dixon
Britt Chance
Dave Pedrick
Alan Payne
Ed Dubois
Charley Morgan
Yves-Marie Tanton
Peter Norlin
Knud Riemers
Phil Rhodes
John Reichel
Jim Puigh
Tony Castro
Rob Humphrteys
Bruce Nelson
Bruce Marek
George Stadel III
Winthrop Warner
Ralph E, Winslow
John Alden,
Howard Chappelle
Albert Strange
Aurthur Robb


etc.


----------



## Brent Swain

Bob
Did you have anything to do with the design of the CT41?


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
No. Sorry. That project in all it's iterations was begun well before I first went to Taiwan. It's common knowledge.


----------



## Brent Swain

The only one on that list with hands on experience in building in steel was Withotz. The result ? He designed some very good, good looking hard chine, and practical steel boats. 
I asked you what your long term cruising in a steel boat was , and your experience in building and maintaining a steel boat over the long term were, and you had no answer.


----------



## bobperry

Brent I have never claimed to be an expert in steel boat building. Ever. In have never built a steel boat. I have never wanted to build a steel boat. I never wanted to own a steel boat. I don;t like steel boats.You just go right along and make up your facts while I wait patiently for the quote where I say I am an "expert in steel boat building" or "I have built many (or one) steel boats." You claim I said it. You must be able to provide truth to back up your claim.

I've seen some beautifully built European built steel boats. Yours? They don't work for my eye. But they work for some people so you should be happy.

The true fact is that all those guys on my list are famous yacht designers. They all arrived at their fame in their own way. Some through college. Some finished. Many did not finish college. Oloin didn't. Some came through apprenticeship programs, some pretty much were self taught.

It just doesn't matter how they arrived at their success. They arrived. They are all successful and well known in the world of yachting. I sure as hell am not going to call up Chuck Paine and endeavor to tell him he did it "wrong". That's just silly. He's Chuck Paine. He did it.

" Hey, L. Francis." 
"Can I call you "L."?
" Uh,, L,,,,,you did it wrong working away in this silly wooden tower in Marblehead."

As my buddy said, "What the hell is a Brent Swain?"


----------



## djodenda

Brent Swain said:


> . A simple inside epoxy job wold have eliminated that problem.


Isn't epoxy a kind of plastic?


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Smack has just been banned from another site, when it became obvious to the moderator that his only reason for being there was to attack every word I posted , and any suggestion of innovation , of any kind.
> 
> They said the internet, once with huge potential for advancement in any field , was being wrecked , and rendered useless as a discussion of potential advancements, by a gang of trolls, who attack every thing said, regardless of content.
> Sound familiar?


Brent - "attacked every word you posted"? Dude, all I did was post your own words from this compilation:

*BS Yachts Marketing Program*

What's interesting is how you see that - _posting the truth_ - as some kind of attack.

I don't have to attack a thing. I just have to remind people what you yourself have said. It _is_ very effective.


----------



## steve77

AlaskaMC said:


> How can you go wrong with that combination!
> 
> 
> Here is one of my girls and my dog. There is a choc lab running around in there somewhere too.
> 
> This is our old living room, dining room, brewing room etc. Lived there for years. But, I guess we were just trying to keep up with people we didn't like.
> 
> The Portuguese Water Dog is really a neat breed. Are they into water as much as the name would suggest?


That's quite a handsome dog you have there...


----------



## Jeff_H

Brent Swain said:


> The only one on that list with hands on experience in building in steel was Withotz. The result ? He designed some very good, good looking hard chine, and practical steel boats.
> I asked you what your long term cruising in a steel boat was , and your experience in building and maintaining a steel boat over the long term were, and you had no answer.


I worked in Charlie Wittholz's office. Charlie knew steel and wood really well. He actually preferred wood. Most of the boats he owned were wood. That said his last boat was steel. Bought her cheaply when they could not find a buyer for her.

Jeff


----------



## smackdaddy

Jeff_H said:


> I worked in Charlie Wittholz's office. Charlie knew steel and wood really well. He actually preferred wood. Most of the boats he owned were wood. That said his last boat was steel. Bought her cheaply when they could not find a buyer for her.
> 
> Jeff


Ooooohhh...


----------



## bobperry

Yeah, I don't recall Charlie ever building a steel boat himself. He probably didn't know what he was doing. But somehow he did manage some very beautiful steel designs. Charlie had "the eye" big time. I got to sit next to him at dinner in Annapolis one night. That was an honor.

Steve:
Is that your dog? It's a beaut.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> No Brent I AM an expert on ALL THINGS NAUTICAL. No question about that. All things.
> 
> What a foolish this to say. But you can't help yourself. You have to attack. I'm sure a lot of the people here will greatly appreciating you pointing that out to them.
> 
> I just design boats and I'm happy that people keep asking me to design more. I like my job. I'm pretty darn good at it so it seems.
> 
> Let's have some fun. I'll make a list of all the famous designers who neverv went world cruising. Maybe you guys can add to the list because I think I'llm stop when my typing finger gets tired.
> 
> Designers who never went world cruising:
> Olin Stephens
> Bruce Farr
> Laurie Davidson
> K. AAge Nielsen
> Bill Atkin
> Bill Garden
> Charles Withotz
> Charley Gilmer
> Bill Lapworth
> Doug Peterson
> Bruce King
> Ron Holland
> Mark Mills
> Gary Mull
> Carl Schumacher
> Bill Tripp
> Skip Calkins
> Carl Alberg
> Bill Shaw
> Chuck Paine
> Ted Brewer
> Dick Carter
> Jim Taylor
> German Frers
> Ted Hood
> L. Francis Herreshoff
> Dieter Empacher
> Uffa Fox
> 
> I'll add my own name to the list because its a list I am very proud to be on. Although I suppose Brent has no respect for any of those named. If you like go ahead and add to the list.
> 
> Lets see:
> Bob Perry
> Ben Seaborn.
> Ed Monk
> George Cuthbertson
> George Cassian
> Bill Dixon
> Britt Chance
> Dave Pedrick
> Alan Payne
> Ed Dubois
> Charley Morgan
> Yves-Marie Tanton
> Peter Norlin
> Knud Riemers
> 
> etc.


I'll assume that none of them went all the way around but I know of a LOT of offshore experience in that bunch - O.S. won the Transatlantic race in his self designed Dorade when he was in his twenties. Holland and Peterson sailed to Tahiti on Improbable etc. etc.

Hardly lacking in experience.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent, no-one here is attacking steel in any way other than to say it's slow for small boats, which it is. The only thing they are "attacking" is your messianic single-mindedness towards it as being the ONLY material safe for offshore sailing.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
I was after designers who had done offshore cruising. Of course Olin did the Trans-At in DORADE. I know that. I'm sure several of them had offshore experience. I have offshore experience. What I was looking for was designers who had spent years cruising and not working at the design trade. I think I have done it and I now have even more names to add. I did not include Crealock because as I recall he did spend some time cruising. I'm not sure a delivery ride qualifies.

But none of that is the point I was trying to make. The point was, that there are many ways to make your name as a designer. One of them may be going off cruising for a couple of years. But fact is that few if any of the designers I listed actually did that. Most of them worked in design offices and raced a lot. They, most of them, learned the yacht design trade by working for other designers.

You'd have to be a fool to think that any of us lacked "experience". The proof is in the product.

Got to go add a few more names to my list.


----------



## Jeff_H

Bob,

I think you point is correct that many of the most venerable designers of offshore cruising boats never built a boat with their own hands and were not distance cruisers themselves, and yet many of their designs have proven to be wonderful offshore cruisers which done significant long distance voyages. Off the top of my head I would add to the list of venerable cruising boat designers who never built a boat with their own hands or went distance cruising: (I don't consider offshore races and deliveries to be distance cruising) 
John Alden
Howard Chappelle
Ralph Wiley
John G. Hanna
Phillip Rhodes
Albert Strange
Arthur Robb
Ralph E. Winslow 
Starling Burgess
George Stadel III
Winthrop Warner

As I suspect you would agree, for the most part, the yacht designers who have become venerable, chose to design boats because they love to design yachts and have a talent for it. They may enjoy sailing, and they may learn from sailing their own boats and talking with people who have sailed their designs, but in reality, thier prime motavation in life is that they enjoy designing boats and so they have chosen to make yacht design their full time careers. Reaching the pinnacle in any profession requires focus and an internal drive to become proficient at that field of study. With caring designers, each new design benefits from the lessons learned from prior efforts. They become dilligent students and critics of their own work and in doing so advance thier art. By and large, it is only human nature amoungst creative people to do so. In the discussions Brent mentions making changes to his designs over time based experiences with his earlier designs. This trial and correction process only serves to improve one's work over time. 

My sense is in the case of the majority of vernerables above, their idea of a great life was to spend their time designing and sailing casually, rather than divert their efforts and squander their limited time on earth by going walkabout or building a boat with their own hands. This was their choice and so for them this was the right decision. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with being a shore-based designer if that is what you chose any more than there is any thing wrong with spending much of your life sailing long distances and dabbling in yacht design along the way. But I am uncomfortable with the idea of criticizing these greats because they chose to focus in their profession and hone their skills rather than go off and spend years of their life cruising or building boats. 

Jeff


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> Smack has just been banned from another site, when it became obvious to the moderator that his only reason for being there was to attack every word I posted , and any suggestion of innovation , of any kind.


Bad Smacky. Place nice in Sully's sandbox or he will send you home. Remember that place is all about HIM not sailing.

Brent, let's be clear about this. Smack was banned from Stuffers cause Sully is a dick. He is NOT just the Mod at Stuffers, he is the megalomaniac owner.



Sully said:


> That's the beauty of a private,little social club like this. What you guys think is all that matters.


If that is your intended audience Brent then hang over there and leave us the hell alone.
How long did you last at stuffers??


----------



## bobperry

I made the additions to the list suggested by Jeff. Thanks Jeff. Wink Warner was right on the tip of my tongue yesterday.

I know I am to blame for this but I think the point of my list may be easily lost. Maybe a better way to approach this is to look at the list and tell me one thing, one thing that all those designers have in common in establishing their deisgn offices.

I'm on the tall side and I work at a drawing board sitting on a stool. I suppose I could sit at a desk but I've been working at a drawing board for 52 years. In order to get my main monitor at the height I need it I have it sitting on THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF YACHT DESIGNERS. A nice, big, thick book. This is an amazing book and took a team of writers to compile. It is extremely comprehensive and covers obscure and famous yacht designers from all over the world. Today it is a very expensive book. I feel honored to be in that book. I was tempted to open the book when I was making my list but it was more fun trying to compile the list from memory. I appreciate additions suggested by Kim and Jeff, both astute students of he field.


----------



## jorgenl

so, Yacht Design works like any other profession...

A great architect does not have to build the buildings himself...
Not all aircraft designers are ex fighter pilots...
A designer at Ferrari's F1 Team is not necessarily an ex race driver...

etc
etc

In an industry which I am familiar with, commecial trucks, the design engineers know a fair bit about trucks but are not professional truck drivers. They do however solicit input from fleet operators, mechanics, drivers etc in order to take advantage of their experience and design a product that will work in the intended environment and fulfill the needs of the customer. They also verify and validate the designs before they are manufactured and offered to the market.

So my (obvious) conclusion is that you do not have to be a fulltime liveaboard cruiser with welding skills and a couple of RTW's under your belt to be a great yacht designer.

Maybe the opposite applies, that is better to have the relevant theoretical education coupled with on the job training in a design office? 

I know how to drive a truck but that does not make me a professional truck driver and , with all due respect, I do not think many truck drivers would make great design engineers, FEA or CFD analysts in our office. 

Probably best that both groups stick to what they are good at....


----------



## bobperry

Thanks Jorgen. I guess it's OK if I keep working now.
Phew!


----------



## jorgenl

bobperry said:


> Thanks Jorgen. I guess it's OK if I keep working now.
> Phew!


You seem to be doing OK ;-)


----------



## bobperry

Robert Schumann could not play his own piano pieces. His wife Clara could.


----------



## djodenda

I once completely rewired a large pipe organ. But I don't know how to play it.


----------



## bobperry

"I once completely rewired a large pipe organ. But I don't know how to play it. "

That's a shame. Think of the fun.
You could play some Buxtehude. Buxtehude agreed to teach J.S. Bach but only if Bach would marry his daughter. Buxtehude's daughter was notoriously ugly and Bach passed on the offer.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Robert Schumann could not play his own piano pieces. His wife Clara could.


Now THAT is kind of weird.  I've never before heard of a composer who couldn't play.

Looking at your list of designers made me think - that covers well over a century and I think you've listed pretty well all the majors.

Pretty rarefied company you keep.  I think the profession fits the term "arcane" quite well. (or vice versa).


----------



## Capt Len

Jeez, with a choice like that,you'd want to play your own tune on your own organ.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:

Lots of composers composed for instruments they could not play. Mozart wrote a lot of horn concertos but he did not play the French horn. His buddy did.

Little Bobby Schumann could play the piano just fine. But there is a theory that he wrecked his hands using a contraption designed to stretch his finger reach. It is known that he did use this odd device. It's not clear if that's what lead to him stopping playing. But, he was a very weird guy. Ended up committing himself to an asylum where he eventually died. Some think he starved himself to death. Others think he died of syphilis.

Bobby's wife, Clara, was a very famous virtuoso in an age where it was very unusual for a woman to be a professional musician. She was also an accomplished composer when very few women were composers. Brahms lived with Bobby and Clara. Think of that.


----------



## jorgenl

Maybe Mr. Schumann was attempting to build a steel yacht in his backyard?


----------



## outbound

At the risk of being mundane ( above posts where delightful and reminds me Beethoven continued to compose after he lost his hearing and the Wizard of Bristol kept drawing after he was too old to sail) wish to return to frameless construction. Seems practical way to increase plate thickness while eliminating frames so total hull weight remains in "acceptable" limits. What I wonder is:
Is there a upper and lower limit to LOA where it just doesn't make sense?
Why don't we hear about this technique more in Aluminum construction? Being easier to bend and of significantly lighter weight seems LOA limitations are less likely to apply. Forget where but seem to remember a new sailboat manufacturer using a modification of this technique. Also wonder if a female mold could be constructed and with a hydraulic press using Al ( or possibly steel but more force involved) a production line of sailboats could be constructed at very reasonable cost.
Just wondering


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Jon:
> 
> Lots of composers composed for instruments they could not play. Mozart wrote a lot of horn concertos but he did not play the French horn. His buddy did.
> 
> Little Bobby Schumann could play the piano just fine. But there is a theory that he wrecked his hands using a contraption designed to stretch his finger reach. It is known that he did use this odd device. It's not clear if that's what lead to him stopping playing. But, he was a very weird guy. Ended up committing himself to an asylum where he eventually died. Some think he starved himself to death. Others think he died of syphilis.
> 
> Bobby's wife, Clara, was a very famous virtuoso in an age where it was very unusual for a woman to be a professional musician. She was also an accomplished composer when very few women were composers. Brahms lived with Bobby and Clara. Think of that.


Thanks Bob - I read your post as he couldn't PLAY, not just the piano. I doubt any of the composers of symphony music could play every instrument.


----------



## bobperry

Out:
I think some of the French builders have tried way of making alu into a production material. They have done some very nice boats but there doesn't seem to be much of a market for them. I think today's sailor is wary of metal boats. GRP is pretty stable in a salt water environment.

I leave it to Brent to tell us what the lower limit LOA is for steel. I would guess that it would depend on the desgn and using Brent's method you could build a nice 11,000 lb. 
30'er in steel, maybe less, if that was your material of choice. Brent's method opens the door to lighter steel building. I look forward to Brent's opinion on this.


----------



## PCP

There are several French boat builders with a considerable production, I mean production boats. Aluminium is probably the material more used on French voyage boats and most of the French that want to voyage and do that on other type of boat do that mostly because aluminium boats are more expensive.

Of course, voyage boats are just a very small part of the global market and they are therefore a small minority even in France, but not in what regards boats designed with voyage in mind.


----------



## Capt Len

One of the gadgets we got from Germany after the war (krupp?) was a huge hydraulic press I heard it was the worlds largest.They had used it to stamp out hulls of U boats. Victoria Machinery Depot used it for years making stuff for pulp and paper mills but never heard of more boat building by that method. Probably due to a resistance to try anything new. Back when I was in my explosives phase, I planed on pressing aluminum into a female concrete mold using overhead Amex charges.Fortunately for the fiber glass canoe and kayak industry I went on to ferro cement. The molds were just too heavy.


----------



## outbound

From my limited understanding cost of Alu is tied to cost of electricity. Maybe as electricity cost fall in the future Alu construction in production runs will be more viable. Interesting post Len. Nothing new under the sun.


----------



## bobperry

PCP:
Could you post some examples please. You are very good at that. Thanks.


----------



## outbound

Steve just built a Boreal 44. It's a boat I looked at before the Outbound. Very sound vessel beautifully executed. Admiral didn't like the feel of interior lay out so dropped off the list. I would have been pleased as punch. Hear what you say about Americans and metal. Knowing that and knowing the cost of the d-mn things when you think some sad day you won't be able to sail any longer metal boats become less attractive. Just easier to sell a boat in your home country when you have swallowed the anchor.


----------



## bobperry

I think I saw a video of their launch posted here. If o, it was a very sweet looking boat.


----------



## Jeff_H

outbound said:


> At the risk of being mundane ( above posts where delightful and reminds me Beethoven continued to compose after he lost his hearing and the Wizard of Bristol kept drawing after he was too old to sail) wish to return to frameless construction. Seems practical way to increase plate thickness while eliminating frames so total hull weight remains in "acceptable" limits. What I wonder is:
> Is there a upper and lower limit to LOA where it just doesn't make sense?
> Why don't we hear about this technique more in Aluminum construction? Being easier to bend and of significantly lighter weight seems LOA limitations are less likely to apply. Forget where but seem to remember a new sailboat manufacturer using a modification of this technique. Also wonder if a female mold could be constructed and with a hydraulic press using Al ( or possibly steel but more force involved) a production line of sailboats could be constructed at very reasonable cost.
> Just wondering


I am not sure that the limit on going frameless is length as much as it is displacement.

As a boat gets heavier, it needs more sail area if it is going to sail well. If the boat is going to stand up that bigger sail plan then it needs more stability. The combination results in the keel connection loads and rigging loads increasing. And as these loads increase, it gets harder to disburse them into the skin without distorting the skin, and so load patches need to be added. (Think of it this way, a sail is a single membrane monocoque structure, and so as the sail gets larger bigger stress patches need to be added at the tack, head, clew and reef points.)

Like the sail analogy, on a small boat you might be able to simply use heavier hull plating (sailcloth) rather than add stress patches but as the boat gets heavier the concentrated loads increase more extensively than the skin loads.

At some point, merely adding stress patches aren't enough and so knees and a minimum amount of frames get added at the highest stress locations rather than end up with a hull that is absurdly thick. Eventually as the boat gets heavier still these added frames end up concentrating loads in narrow bands and so additional structure is added to move the loads more effectively around the skin.

A good example of this phenomina is early fiberglass boats. When they first started building fiberglass boats, they wanted them to be frameless. The US government had done a lot of research on FG during WW II and the early designers knew that fiberglass was very string in bending, but not very stiff. Unlike the mythology, the early FG boats had thick hulls to deal with flexure. (Unfortunately to get that thickness early boats generally used a number of methods to bulk up the laminate which undermined the strength of the laminate especially over time. but that's another story..)

When you look at these earliest FG boats, even though they were very heavily built, it was not unusual to see dimples in the topsides where rigging loads distorted the hulls. Pretty quickly designers and builders started adding knews and structural bulkheads. By the mid to late1970's fully framed FG boats became the norm.

It is a similar problem with steel, as the boat gets longer and heavier, at some point the choice becomes to add frames, end up with an absurdly heavy hull, design a way to distribute the loads with the geometry of the hull and/or deck, or live with distortions.

There actually have been production aluminum power craft. Probably a decade or so ago, I attended a lecture on new aluminum Coast Guard boats. The aluminum sheets were precisely cut by a computer driven cutter. The electronically developed plate drawings allowed the yard to develop very efficient 'nesting plans' which allowed the carefull layout of the individual parts on the plate so there was very little waste. The cut plans included small tabs which allowed the precise aligment of the parts as the boat was assembled. Bulkheads served as part of the structure and also helped precisely control the final plate shapes. Very impressive to see.

I think that aluminum lends itself to the newer hull forms and so is more popular in Europe where they have embrassed the Open Class style boats more than we have here.

Jeff


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> I am not sure that the limit on going frameless is length as much as it is displacement.
> 
> As a boat gets heavier, it needs more sail area if it is going to sail well. If the boat is going to stand up that bigger sail plan then it needs more stability. The combination results in the keel connection loads and rigging loads increasing. And as these loads increase, it gets harder to disburse them into the skin without distorting the skin, and so load patches need to be added. (Think of it this way, a sail is a single membrane monocoque structure, and so as the sail gets larger bigger stress patches need to be added at the tack, head, clew and reef points.)
> 
> Like the sail analogy, on a small boat you might be able to simply use heavier hull plating (sailcloth) rather than add stress patches but as the boat gets heavier the concentrated loads increase more extensively than the skin loads.
> 
> At some point, merely adding stress patches aren't enough and so knees and a minimum amount of frames get added at the highest stress locations rather than end up with a hull that is absurdly thick. Eventually as the boat gets heavier still these added frames end up concentrating loads in narrow bands and so additional structure is added to move the loads more effectively around the skin.
> 
> A good example of this phenomina is early fiberglass boats. When they first started building fiberglass boats, they wanted them to be frameless. The US government had done a lot of research on FG during WW II and the early designers knew that fiberglass was very string in bending, but not very stiff. Unlike the mythology, the early FG boats had thick hulls to deal with flexure. (Unfortunately to get that thickness early boats generally used a number of methods to bulk up the laminate which undermined the strength of the laminate especially over time. but that's another story..)
> 
> When you look at these earliest FG boats, even though they were very heavily built, it was not unusual to see dimples in the topsides where rigging loads distorted the hulls. Pretty quickly designers and builders started adding knews and structural bulkheads. By the mid to late1970's fully framed FG boats became the norm.
> 
> It is a similar problem with steel, as the boat gets longer and heavier, at some point the choice becomes to add frames, end up with an absurdly heavy hull, design a way to distribute the loads with the geometry of the hull and/or deck, or live with distortions.
> 
> There actually have been production aluminum power craft. Probably a decade or so ago, I attended a lecture on new aluminum Coast Guard boats. The aluminum sheets were precisely cut by a computer driven cutter. The electronically developed plate drawings allowed the yard to develop very efficient 'nesting plans' which allowed the carefull layout of the individual parts on the plate so there was very little waste. The cut plans included small tabs which allowed the precise aligment of the parts as the boat was assembled. Bulkheads served as part of the structure and also helped precisely control the final plate shapes. Very impressive to see.
> 
> I think that aluminum lends itself to the newer hull forms and so is more popular in Europe where they have embrassed the Open Class style boats more than we have here.
> 
> Jeff


A couple of very successful origami aluminium 55 footers have been built here. I saw one at Christmas Islands the last time I was down there. She sailed back home to northern BC in November, a severe test in itself. The owner, Jean Marc loves to sail his homeland , Hecate Strait, year round, and the rougher the better for him .He has done enough miles of fulltime cruising up there to go around the world . You can often find him in Old Bella Bella, where he bought the place.
The French have been building heavily plated aluminium origami boats for a long time now, called "Strongall boats." A google search will find them.
I always use some transverse floors on my boats to help stiffen the keel attachment . On the single keel there is the aft end of the ballast and centreline tank , nearly 4 feet wide, and going to the bottom of the keel. Then there is a baffle 4 feet forward of that, again 4 feet wide and going almost a foot into the keel . Then there is the forward end of the tank and the top, most of a 4x8 ft sheet of steel .making a super strong and rigid structure . Twin keelers have 4- 3x3x1/2inch angles, on each side, from the chine to the tank edge, supporting the twin keels. 
The topsides are a 3 ft wide, 3/16th steel plate on end, giving a chain plate attachment far stronger than any rigging wire you could ever put on them. 
A good comparison of stiffness is to consider the way some GRP boats have cheated the rating rules ,by putting a big hydraulic backstay adjuster on, and cranking it until the boat sags and the waterline shortens considerably, for measuring. If you try that on a steel or aluminium origami boat , you wont change the waterline length a sixteenth of an inch. You will break the backstay long before that happens. I once broke the handle off a 3 ton come along trying to take a 1/16th inch twist out of a hull, after the decks were on. The hull never budged.
I put a half inch plate web under the mast support, then connect ( triangulate) the ends of that to the chine with pipes. The chines, structurally, constitute a longitudinal angle, 3 ft by 5 ft by 3/16th, far stronger than any combination of rigging wire which will ever load them
60 ft seems to be the upper limit, but one can use origami methods on larger hulls, and put stiffeners in after the hull is together, saving a huge amount of time over traditional methods.
A mold wouldn't give you any advantage over the external frames Van De Stadt uses. That kind of framing type mold would not be worth the trouble for a one off ,but would be well worthwhile for mass production. The weight of the steel would push it down into the frames, little more pressure is needed. A similar mold for decks would also work. Putting the plate shapes on a disk, for computer cutting, would save a lot of time for mass production. Interiors could also be done that way.


----------



## bobperry

"A good comparison of stiffness is to consider the way some GRP boats have cheated the rating rules ,by putting a big hydraulic backstay adjuster on, and cranking it until the boat sags and the waterline shortens considerably, for measuring."

Interesting. Can you tell us Brent what rating rules in place since the popular advent of hydraulic backstay adjusters actually measure the waterline?

Cute story but not based on any fact. One of my hobbies is the study of rating rules and their evolution. Better bring your A game to that question.

I was interested in how small a boat you think you could build in your origami method. What's currently the smallest boat you have done?


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Jon:
> 
> Lots of composers composed for instruments they could not play. Mozart wrote a lot of horn concertos but he did not play the French horn. His buddy did.
> 
> Little Bobby Schumann could play the piano just fine. But there is a theory that he wrecked his hands using a contraption designed to stretch his finger reach. It is known that he did use this odd device. It's not clear if that's what lead to him stopping playing. But, he was a very weird guy. Ended up committing himself to an asylum where he eventually died. Some think he starved himself to death. Others think he died of syphilis.
> 
> Bobby's wife, Clara, was a very famous virtuoso in an age where it was very unusual for a woman to be a professional musician. She was also an accomplished composer when very few women were composers. Brahms lived with Bobby and Clara. Think of that.


What does this have to do with pros and cons of steel sailboats?


----------



## Brent Swain

chall03 said:


> Bad Smacky. Place nice in Sully's sandbox or he will send you home. Remember that place is all about HIM not sailing.
> 
> Brent, let's be clear about this. Smack was banned from Stuffers cause Sully is a dick. He is NOT just the Mod at Stuffers, he is the megalomaniac owner.
> 
> If that is your intended audience Brent then hang over there and leave us the hell alone.
> How long did you last at stuffers??


Sully runs a great site, where innovation is encouraged . He's a good moderator. He was not the first one to point out that Smack and Bob were only there to follow, misrepresent and attack my posts.
Your hero, Smack, attacks all forms of innovation, and hides behind an alias.
Doesn't use his real name.
Google Smackdaddy


----------



## desert rat

Come on Brent. I'm a technician and this sounds like i could pick up a lot of useful information following this train of thought.


----------



## Brent Swain

Bob
Is it true that Boeing Surplus in Seattle is no more? It was a great source of tools and titanium. 
That would be sad.


----------



## Brent Swain

desert rat said:


> Come on Brent. I'm a technician and this sounds like i could pick up a lot of useful information following this train of thought.


You are welcome to anything I have learned on the subject, over 38 boats and over 40 years of boatbuilding and cruising . Pick away and ask away. That is what these discussions are for.


----------



## djodenda

Brent:

The Boeing Surplus Store is now online:

https://surplus.boeing.com/Index.cfm

I've not been looking much lately, and haven't noticed any titanium (The 787 has more Ti than any other previous model.. works better with composites)..

It might be a place where you can see expired rolls of carbon fiber pre-preg, which is probably still good, but you'd need to heat it up to cure it.

I see they are auctioning off 81,000 lbs of Invar.. maybe that could be a new thread regarding the pros and cons of building boats with Invar.

Pro #1: Less of a problem with thermal expansion..

(somebody go next)


----------



## Brent Swain

The smallest origami boat I have done was my 7 ft6 inch aluminium dingy.
Many small aluminium workboats have been done for decades using origami methods.
Bruce Cope ( of Cope aluminium boats in Parksville) said Hyline Aluminium in Steveston BC , built hundreds in the 70s.


----------



## Brent Swain

djodenda said:


> Brent:
> 
> The Boeing Surplus Store is now online:
> 
> https://surplus.boeing.com/Index.cfm
> 
> I've not been looking much lately, and haven't noticed any titanium (The 787 has more Ti than any other previous model.. works better with composites)..
> 
> It might be a place where you can see expired rolls of carbon fiber pre-preg, which is probably still good, but you'd need to heat it up to cure it.


Thanks


----------



## bobperry

Brent: I didn't know that but I'm not surprised. It was there for a long time. I sedf to buy my drawing boards there, $6.00 a piece. They were great boards. I even found spline weights there marked with "747" on them. We got the rudder stove for HEATHER, the two tonner there.

Ok, give?
I'll answer the question for you Brent.
Your story is a silly myth.
Navtec backstay adjusters were the first ones available to the racing fleet other than rare custom made units. These hydraulic backstay adjusters were introduced in the very early '70's, maybe '72. I'd have to check. Doesn't matter because the universal rating rule after 1968 was the IOR. The IOR DOES NOT measure DWL. All the hull measurements for the IOR are taken with the boat OUT OF THE WATER. DWL is not one of these measurements. PHRF does not take ANY in the water measurments. 

Cute story but not true.

What I was interested in is how small a steel boat do you think is practical using your method?


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> What does this have to do with pros and cons of steel sailboats?


Absolutely nothing. It's called thread drift. If you've been reading everything posted to this thread you may have noticed there has been a fair bit of it.


----------



## bobperry

That's kind of a shame that Boeing Surply went online. Most of the fun of shopping there was just rambling about the place looking for odd items. That's how I found my 747 spline weights. They were in a bucket full of odds and ends. I remember seeing a huge pile of tangled drafting machines.


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## bubb2

Brent Swain said:


> Sully runs a great site, where innovation is encouraged . He's a good moderator. He was not the first one to point out that Smack and Bob were only there to follow, misrepresent and attack my posts.


Yeah Sully's site was where YOU ran to after being banned here for insulting Bob's wife. Then over there you said Bob was lying and you never said anything about his wife. It must be very complicated trying to keep all your stories straight between all the sites you visit.


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## djodenda

A reliable source says that there are still drafting tables in use at Boeing, but not to many... Along with some spline weights..

The same reliable source once got an old table allocated to him, and it has some late-1960s early 1970s space shuttle drawings. 



Pretty cool.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Out:
> I think some of the French builders have tried way of making alu into a production material. They have done some very nice boats but there doesn't seem to be much of a market for them. I think today's sailor is wary of metal boats. GRP is pretty stable in a salt water environment.
> 
> I leave it to Brent to tell us what the lower limit LOA is for steel. I would guess that it would depend on the desgn and using Brent's method you could build a nice 11,000 lb.
> 30'er in steel, maybe less, if that was your material of choice. Brent's method opens the door to lighter steel building. I look forward to Brent's opinion on this.


The first and smallest origami boat I have built and designed was a 26 footer. She sailed well, and the owner was very happy with her. One sailed from BC to Australia, where she was sold to her latest owners, who are very happy Aussies, whom I met in Comox once. They sent a picture of her to Pacific yachting, which they published. She cruises around Brisbane, last report ,with the name "Misty Blue". Winston sailed a 27 ft version of this boat thru the NW passage, documented in his crew's books "Arctic Odyssey " By Len Sherman and "The NW Passage on Ten Dollars a Day" , by George Hone, who recently retired from West Marine in Nanaimo. The story is also in back issues of Pacific Yachting. Winston's daughter also has one, in which she has just left for Mexico. She also worked at West Marine in Nanaimo.
I think 26 feet is around the minimum for steel, but smaller origami boats in aluminium are definitely practical.


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## bobperry

Denda:
I think you mean the old red barn at the museum.


----------



## Brent Swain

bubb2 said:


> Yeah Sully's site was where YOU ran to after being banned here for insulting Bob's wife. Then over there you said Bob was lying and you never said anything about his wife. It must be very complicated trying to keep all your stories straight between all the sites you visit.


I was on Sully's site ( by invitation from Sully) long before becoming very active here. Check the dates of my posts.
I said absolutely nothing directly insulting about Bobs wife


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> That's kind of a shame that Boeing Surply went online. Most of the fun of shopping there was just rambling about the place looking for odd items. That's how I found my 747 spline weights. They were in a bucket full of odds and ends. I remember seeing a huge pile of tangled drafting machines.


When I take first time clients to the scrapyard , at first they tip toe daintily thru the piles. An hour later I have to practically drag them away. They don't want to leave .
I have never charged for scrapyard time. That's sport, not work!


----------



## bobperry

"I said absolutely nothing directly insulting about Bobs wife "

I'm very sorry Brent but that is a lie.

I think Jeff can provide the evidence to that.
But I'd prefer you accepted the fact that you acted like a horses ass and we moved on to boat talk.


----------



## djodenda

bobperry said:


> Denda:
> I think you mean the old red barn at the museum.


Nope.. I am quite close to the source. Some of that stuff is still around. I am presently in possession of the documents. Perhaps I will drop by some time and show them to you and have you autograph my book.

(I'll also show you around my boat, of which I am quite fond of (sorry.. Tony Castro design)


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> Brent, no-one here is attacking steel in any way other than to say it's slow for small boats, which it is. The only thing they are "attacking" is your messianic single-mindedness towards it as being the ONLY material safe for offshore sailing.


I have never claimed steel was the ONLY material for offshore boats, just the safest, driest, toughest, most comfortable and trouble free, in heavy duty, full time use, and the easiest to build.


----------



## Brent Swain

Racing crew from the Royal Vancouver Yacht Club told me about shortening the waterline with a hydraulic backstay adjuster, for a lower rating, in the early 70's, under racing rules then in effect.


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## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> I said absolutely nothing directly insulting about Bobs wife


Brent - that is an out and out lie - I was on this thread before & after you DID.


----------



## bobperry

Ok, let's get back on topic here.

Brent I'm anxious to see some pics of your 26'er.

When I asked how small can you go with your method I was thinking below 30' but I didn't know. It's not like I am going to start drawing steel boats. But I am interested in all kinds of boats. and you have 36 boats built over 40 years. Wow. That's almost one a year. That is quite a few steel boats. I have,,,,let's see,,,,,four over 39 years. ****ski.
You win.

The idea of a small steel boat is very intriguing.


----------



## smackdaddy

outbound said:


> At the risk of being mundane ( above posts where delightful and reminds me Beethoven continued to compose after he lost his hearing and the Wizard of Bristol kept drawing after he was too old to sail) wish to return to frameless construction. Seems practical way to increase plate thickness while eliminating frames so total hull weight remains in "acceptable" limits. What I wonder is:
> Is there a upper and lower limit to LOA where it just doesn't make sense?
> Why don't we hear about this technique more in Aluminum construction? Being easier to bend and of significantly lighter weight seems LOA limitations are less likely to apply. Forget where but seem to remember a new sailboat manufacturer using a modification of this technique. Also wonder if a female mold could be constructed and with a hydraulic press using Al ( or possibly steel but more force involved) a production line of sailboats could be constructed at very reasonable cost.
> Just wondering


Somewhere in this thread I posted a marketing video of a company that was doing just that (origami with aluminum). They went under after taking lots of orders (i.e. - money up front), but not being able to deliver the final products. Maybe it was the fact that hulls went together pretty quickly - but then there's the rest of the yacht to build...the hard part.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Sully runs a great site, where innovation is encouraged . He's a good moderator. He was not the first one to point out that Smack and Bob were only there to follow, misrepresent and attack my posts.
> Your hero, Smack, attacks all forms of innovation, and hides behind an alias.
> Doesn't use his real name.
> Google Smackdaddy


Follow? Dude, I joined that site in 2009. And it certainly wasn't to "follow" you. I'd never heard of you until a couple of years ago when I saw your posts on another forum.

I love innovation (even yours). I only attack hypocrisy and dishonesty (especially yours).


----------



## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> Brent - that is an out and out lie - I was on this thread before & after you DID.


Seems to be a pattern, eh?

Here is what he said:



Brent Swain said:


> Have you guys seen this guys wife? Aesthetics?
> No argueing with the weight given by a government highway scale.
> Bedtime. Getin dark, too dark to see.


After we called him out on it, he then edited it to say this (prior to very rightly being banned):



Brent Swain said:


> Bob. This contradicts your earlier posts.. You have some of the best looking boats out there, second only to mine. If I emulated your hull shapes in steel, they would be horrendously expensive, time consuming,"Miss Bondo's." Different materials call for different shapes.
> No argueing with the weight given by a government highway scale.
> Bedtime. Getin dark, too dark to see.


Brent - truth really is a lot easier. You just don't have the intellectual capacity to keep this many fabricated storylines straight.

Think about truth like you think about steel. It's strong and can withstand hitting reality. Deception and dishonesty are like plastic...they break really easily when they hit reality. And you sink. Every time.

Go with truth Brent. Truth=Steel. That's a Pro.


----------



## blt2ski

I like my castro boat better than davids......then again, we WERE across from ea other.......guess he did not like my sons drinking his beer.........smart boyz, drink other peoples beer.

So which of us can get BP to come down saturday for the foulweather bluff race and crew on our castro boats..............

I remember going to boeing surplus back in the 70's, was my step-dads favorite place to shop.......unfortunately from my mom's perspective, having BS next to his office was NOT a good thing.....along with he liked to build boats........oh well. 

Marty


----------



## desert rat

Brent I want an aluminum dingey. I don't have a boat yet so design it with a variable length and a flattened nose, not a biro, so it will fit on the foredeck. I don't know if it would be economically feasible but it would make a lot of sailors happy. Maybe even a long boat (whaling stile)? Someone might buy the plans. Me.


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> Sully runs a great site, where innovation is encouraged . He's a good moderator. He was not the first one to point out that Smack and Bob were only there to follow, misrepresent and attack my posts.
> Your hero, Smack, attacks all forms of innovation, and hides behind an alias.
> Doesn't use his real name.
> Google Smackdaddy


Sigh.

Brent, if you genuinely believe that Sully runs a great site and that he is a great moderator then that explains to me alot about your perspective.

I assume in you saying he is a great moderator you are aware of past allegations of him threatening physical violence on SN members, as well as his mud slinging campaign where at one time he accused a SN member of child porn.

If you do believe him to be a beacon of balanced opinion and free speech I would again encourage you to go frequent his playbox.

Smack my hero??? Nah.

If I cared what you thought that much I would post links to several different threads where I have actively disagreed with him. He is a good guy though, and funny. You are neither.

I'm not going to debate you on boat design anymore. There are those here far more qualified than I to so, and from where I sit they sir have wiped the floor with you.

Brent, you have done more to harm your name and your business in this thread than the 'plastic salesman' could of in a lifetime.


----------



## bobperry

Desert's post got me thinking. I laid awake all night thinking.

An alu 15' by 3.5' double ended row boat in Brent's origami method. I'd need help from Brent as I don't know how much shape or even what shape I can get in the ends. I have end shapes in mind. I just don't know if they will wrk in the origami method.

I need e new boat for my rocky beach and this could be the boat. I need to sketch a bit and do a quick weight estimate. I'd figure 1/8" plate for durability. I was thinking a .25" thick centerline backbone plate.

I'm going to come up with a drawing in the next few days. I'll post it here and see if I can get Brent to comment on the details. If this is workable I'll make the plans available free. The key will be being able to control the shapes in the ends so I can get the numbers and look that I want.


----------



## smackdaddy

Now we're talking! Sliver Jr?


----------



## bobperry

I'm thinking of the coolest pulling boat you ever saw. Nott sure about beam yet. I was thinking around 40" but that may be too much. Bare alu, artfully scupted but very simple structure pieces. Built in retracting beach dolly, ultra simple. I have it all in my head. Not sure how long the cut ("dart") has to be to get the end shapes I want. I can live with the chine amidships. No problem with that. Just need to convince Brent to play along and give me some practical advice. It can be a team effort.

If not I'll get some cardboard from the art store and some duct tape and see what I can cobble together by myself. Spike could have done this. He coud weld and he was the King of the glue gun.


----------



## smackdaddy

Just make sure it's strong enough that you can row it right into Fukushima Debris without sinking.


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## copacabana

Would it be possible to make a nesting version with a mating bulkhead in the middle? This way you could store the stern section in the bow section and it would take up little room on deck (or on the pier or the roof of a car). I'd love an aluminium dinghy!



bobperry said:


> Desert's post got me thinking. I laid awake all night thinking.
> 
> An alu 15' by 3.5' double ended row boat in Brent's origami method. I'd need help from Brent as I don't know how much shape or even what shape I can get in the ends. I have end shapes in mind. I just don't know if they will wrk in the origami method.
> 
> I need e new boat for my rocky beach and this could be the boat. I need to sketch a bit and do a quick weight estimate. I'd figure 1/8" plate for durability. I was thinking a .25" thick centerline backbone plate.
> 
> I'm going to come up with a drawing in the next few days. I'll post it here and see if I can get Brent to comment on the details. If this is workable I'll make the plans available free. The key will be being able to control the shapes in the ends so I can get the numbers and look that I want.


----------



## bobperry

Cops:
Yes, I don't know why not.

I'm going to call y 3D guy right now and see if he can do the geometry with the flat plates and get the shape I'm am after. But I need Brent's expertise with metal. I have already been drawing and I like what I have just sure it can be bent.


----------



## bobperry

My 3D guy Jody says he can do it. So I'll get my sketch off to him and see what he says. We'll just have to wait and see if Brent is interested in being part of this creative process.
I hope he is. Time to change "destructive" into "productive".


----------



## outbound

Be great if you could include a nesting design.+1 on that. Love to put it on foredeck. Scared to fly fish in my RIB. Don't have my backcasts perfect all the time and scared to put a gaff in her. Hate engines. Rowboats are too cool. If you do a cad/cam I would buy a disc.


----------



## Capt Len

I think a bottom plate (a bit of wedge and rocker) and two origami sides to a pramish bow could give the beam needed for a stable tender.Then cut in half for nesting Voila!


----------



## copacabana

I'm sure Brent will chime in shortly with some good advice. His book has the plans for an origami aluminium dinghy that can perhaps be tinkered with to get Bob's shapes. I'd love to see this go forward- the world needs a decent aluminium nesting dinghy!


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## kimbottles

It would be rather cool to have Brent and Bob cooperate together on a project.

Bravo to Bob for suggesting it.


----------



## AlaskaMC

This would be a great outcome to this thread. A alu dingy would be a hit up here as well in AK. A nesting one even better!

Bob and Brent working together. Hmmm, reminds me of Ghostbusters...






EDIT: All kidding aside though. I sure hope Brent takes this in the right spirit. It could really change the tone of this discussion to being very positive and constructive. It would be great to see a aluminum dink turn this steel ship around.


----------



## Jeff_H

Aluminum dinghies from a famous designer is following in a long (forgotten) tradition. The first boat that I ever sailed in was a Phillip Rhodes designed aluminum dinghy called the Grumman Gull.

Jeff


----------



## bobperry

Len:
I can tell you now the bow will not be "pramish". I want this to be a beautiful boat.


----------



## kimbottles

Is that a gunter rig? love the long gaff and short mast!


----------



## Jeff_H

kimbottles said:


> Is that a gunter rig? love the long gaff and short mast!


Yes, it was a sliding gunther rig. The intent was that the spars could stow in the boat, but I don't recall them actually fitting in the dinghy.

I recall the boat sailing reasonably well but of course what did I know since this was the first time that I ever went sailing.

Jeff


----------



## Capt Len

OK Bob no pramish it is. Looking forward to your collaborative design.Origami may prove to be a great shape former..


----------



## bobperry

Len:
Yep, it could be fun and enlightening I hope.


----------



## Jeff_H

While there has been a lot of interesting give and take in this tread, I must admit that it concernrs me a little that this thread has gone so far off the rails. This seems like a very worthwhile topic which could be a simple and linear dialogue on a moderately complex set of discussion points. 

Instead, it has become the proverbial equivalent of the ********, clinging to whatever relevant or irrelevant issue it touches and dragging that issue along for often many semi-vitriolic pages at a time. 

If SailNet was not the online equivalent of a waterside bar, it seems like it all should have been a lot simpler than this. And while it can be seen as inevitable that life style and economics figure into almost any conversation exploring alternative ways of going cruising, this thread has picked up more than its fair share of effluvia. 

I do think that within the off-topic aspects of this discussion there are useful insights into how various sailors view the sport, and more specifically cruising. I think that it is useful to see these contrasting views of sailing and cruising and understand the seemingly broad range of viewpoints from distance cruising is the sole appropriate end unto itself, to views of sailing and cruising as a merely an adjunct part of a life well lived. 

Within this thread there are similar debates about performance, survivability and aesthetics, with individuals claiming theirs is the one universally right position. (At least from my point of view, there is no such thing as one universally right way to enjoy sailing and cruising and that each individual gets to define their goals, tastes, fears, pleasures, priorities, budgets, and so on. And the only wrong answer is when that individual makes a decision that is at odds with their own defined preferences. But that’s another topic for the next thread.) 

But that aside, I thought it would be useful to gather the points which address the basic subject of the Pros and Cons of steel construction as well as some of the related subjects. And drawing on the old political saw that every one gets to have their own opinion but no gets to have make up their own facts, I also think that there are a lot of ‘facts’ within this thread and a bunch of opinion being presented as fact. 

If you weigh through the ebb and flow of these 1,400 or so posts, there are actually quite a few really good points about the pros and cons of steel construction. And while not everyone will agree on all of these points, I thought it might be useful to try to summarize the main ones (at least the ones that I agree with anyway). I also apologize that this is absurdly long and that I cut and pasted much of this from earlier discussions. 

Pros: 
Steel Construction in general:
	Steel offers a lot of strength in a very small volumetric area. This allows a comparatively low volume for skin and framing, and so more useable living space and storage space within the shell. 
	Steel offers a tremendous amount of abrasion resistance.
	The materials for a steel hull can be purchased relatively inexpensively. 
	(Assuming that the boat builder can deal with inclement weather) A steel hull can be constructed out in the weather saving the costs of leasing a large space to building. 
	If a ‘work boat’ style finish is acceptable then finishes can be relatively inexpensive and should be fully within the range of skills of an amateur. 
	Steel construction permits the fabrication of robust integral fittings which in turn minimizes the opportunity for hull and deck leaks. This is especially true if a steel deck is used since the welded hull to deck joint results in an effectively monolithic connection. 
	An amateur with good welding skills and access to a decent quality welding and steel handling equipment can fabricate his own boat. 
	Repairs to steel hulls can almost always be made in a manner that restores complete structural integrity. 
	Steel boats are nearly infinitely re-buildable. 
	Steel does not have an inherent structural load path orientation and so can disburse and absorb loading equally well in all directions. This is especially useful in impact loads which tend to occur in random directions relative to the normal service load paths. 
	Steel has an inherent ductility which allows it to deform rather than puncture in an impact. 
	Small steel vessels (perhaps under 40 or so feet) can be constructed essentially monocoque, with a minimum of framing, doublers and/or other forms of reinforcing. This is a bit of a trade off since omitting framing requires addition skin thickness and potentially results in greater overall weight. As boats get larger, the concentrated loadings from the keel, rudder, and sail plan loads become exponentially larger relative to the skin loadings, and so at some point knees, bulkheads, and stringers become critical to distributing these loads into the skin. 
	The ability to weld together various boat components, and steel’s ability to deal with a pretty wide range of temperatures offer construction options such as pouring lead ballast right in the keel cavity, or having integral engine cooling water heat exchangers that are integral with the keel or hull. 

Neither Pro or Con;
	Steel durability requires proper protection of the steel from corrosion. This is especially important on the interior of the boat and in high wear areas. Brent outlines his methods for prepping and painting the interior of the steel and describes a very long life span for that approach. But Brent also notes that almost no steel builders besides him do it his way and so based on Brent’s experience, corrosion problems in steel boats from other builders are much more likely to be problematic. 
(My experience with older steel boats is that they have a comparatively short life. When I worked for Charlie Wittholz, I worked on drawings for a steel power boat. Charlie’s standard spec’s called for the interior of the boat to be sandblasted ‘white’, coated with a zinc rich epoxy, and then coated with several coats of coal tar epoxy. The interior of boats to within a foot vertically of the bottom of the turn of the bilge were then sprayed with closed cell foam. 20 years later that boat showed up in Annapolis. By then, the owners had replaced much of the bottom plating since it had rusted to a point where it had failed survey and there were still areas that were rusted (from memory) to less than approximately 1/8” of material remaining. There were several differences between the construction of this boat and the Origami boats in this boat was hard-chined and had transverse and longitudinal framing. The corrosion occurred in a variety of areas of the bottom, but quite a bit of it was near the framing.) 
	The introduction of sacrificial or non-corroding wear surfaces at edges and other high wear points can reduce the amount of touch up which needs to be performed to protect the exterior surfaces. 
	It is harder to get steel yacht with a ‘fine yacht finish’. For some people and some sailing preferences, simple utilitarian, ‘tool’ like finishes are appealing and make complete sense. But many people consider the visual aspects of a finely shaped and finely finished boat an important part of the sailing experience and for them, it becomes very expensive and labor intensive to achieve and maintain that level of finish. 
(I personally do not see either approach as being inherently superior. Frankly, since the recession, Synergy is far closer in finish to a utilitarian chic’ than she is to a fine yacht. She has her fair share of ‘Franken-hardware’ in which old discarded hardware was brought back to life and/or adapted for a specific use for which it never was intended, of new hardware fabricated from scrap. Her decks sorely need to be painted. Her lack of pristine aesthetic maintenance does not alter the quality of the sailing experience for me, but does bother my wife. By the same token, I do admire a well kept boat.) 
	It is much harder to achieve high performance capabilities in a steel hull, especially in a smaller boat. That said, as Brent rightly points out, for many, if not most, serious cruisers, ultimate speed is not an end all- be all and a properly designed steel boat can achieve relatively decent performance on a par with many heavy displacement cruising boats constructed in other materials. 

Origami Construction:
	Since framing and additional reinforcement areas can be mostly eliminated it potentially reduces fabrication time, and corrosion problems. 
	Done properly Origami Construction reduces the construction time for the hull by eliminating the fabrication time for framing, and reducing the length of cuts and welds. If the cut pattern is accurate and cut with precision, Origami Construction should produce a comparatively fair hull form requiring a minimum, if any, fairing. 
	Origami Construction lends itself to a broader range of materials than steel. There is a lot of discussion of the plus and minuses of using aluminum for Origami Construction. The major plus is a reduction in hull weight. The negatives of aluminum are an incrementally greater material cost, the need for more specialized welding skills and equipment, the need to build in a controlled environment, trickier finishing choices, higher electrolysis risks, and less abrasion resistance. To a great extent stitch and glue plywood construction is a form of Origami Construction as well but I see that as off-topic. 
	Structurally non-framed steel construction is a mixed bag. It can be argued that adding frames can increase the likelihood that the plating will sheer on impact should the impact occur on the skin near a frame. In the absence of a frame, the skin is more likely to absorb the impact by deflecting out of shape and in the case of a minor impact be able to be pressured back into shape. The flip side of that is that framing is very effective in distributing loads to a much larger area. Where frameless construction can be more resistant to very concentrated point loads like hitting a corner of a shipping container, framed construction is more effective in distributing large area impact such as might be the case a vessel dropping on its side on reef in big waves or getting pressed up against a dock. 
	There is a surprising range of hull forms that can be achieved using Origami construction from the loosely 1970’s era cruising hull forms on Brent’s boats, to more modern higher performance shapes. 
	Using Origami Construction is hard to create a hull form that does not have chines on some portion of the hull. To one degree or another, chines add drag, the amount of which is dependent on the shape, placement on the hull, and the angle of heel of the boat. It can be argued that this drag is of minimal significance in a heavy displacement for their length cruising hull forms whose owners are usually people who are not concerned with achieving high levels of performance. There are high performance hull forms which have chines, but these depend on comparatively light displacements for their lengths which is hard to achieve in small steel, distance-cruising boats. 

Owner Builder-Amateur builder- Custom Builder
	While not strictly a steel construction issue, a lot of the discussion has focused on Owner, amateur, and custom boat builders. In that regard, steel readily lends itself to one off construction and to amateur boat builders. So do a lot of other materials, but not all materials are equally suited to one off construction.
	While many, if not most people can learn to weld and cut steel, like any manual skill, some people are likely to have an aptitude for metal fabrication, while others can eventually be taught, and still others will never be able to safely build a steel boat. This is not a knock on steel construction per se, because there are people who have no manual skills and lack the aptitude to learn these skills. 
(In my case for example, I first learned to weld by attending a night course at a community college. I took the course with a friend of mine. From the first class on, no matter what type of weld we were learning that night my friend was able to lay down a good weld. It was much more of a struggle for me. With practice my welds became better, but they never were as clean and crisp as my friends. Its not that I never learned to weld at all. I built motorcycle frames using light gauge steel and chrome-molly tubing, and have made a variety of odds and ends, but I have a tough time thinking that I would ever get proficient enough to build a steel boat. By the same token, I am a pretty skilled woodworker and I have worked in boat yards doing glass work, and so if I wanted to build another boat I would probably be more comfortable working in wood or glass composites. I do not mean to suggest that either steel or wood, or glass are better materials for amateur boat building. My point here is that we all have our own skill sets and aptitudes and these are likely to shape a decision regarding ‘the right material’ for any particular person to chose if they were to build a boat.) 
	The comparatively stiff nature of steel means that a minimum of temporary frames or supporting jigs are required. This saves material and fabrication time. This also means that almost any part that is fabricated, will remain as a part of the boat. That is a very efficient way to build a boat. By the same token, this is not unique to steel construction. This is also generally true of other panelized ways of constructing a boat.
	The panelized nature of steel construction allows a comparatively simply layout of the individual hull skin panels, and that saves lofting and fabrication time. In the case of a computer drafted design, it is possible to have very precise, full size, computer generated cutting patterns. These also save time, and helps assure a more precise rendition of the intended design. While Brent advocates purchasing full length plate as a time saver, in the situation where this is not available or practical, the use of computer generated patterns, allows efficient ‘nesting patterns’ to be developed in order to minimize waste. 
	Computer aided design also permits designers to produce full scale cutting patterns for interior components and again that saves time and material. This is actually more useful for other boat building materials than with steel. 
	Brent advocates a method for constructing steel boat interiors, which greatly reduces the need for precision cutting and fitting. Basically, steel tabs are welded to the hull wherever a wood bulkhead or flat comes up against the hull. Because these are comparatively short and discontinuous, it is easier to place then precisely and to avoid distortion of the skin. The bulkheads and flats are then screw fastened into place. There is a lot to be said for this approach. It allows for an interior which can be readily disassembled to provide access to the skin, or other components of the boat. With modern self-drilling, self-tapping fastenings this should be a comparatively fast and easy way to achieve a serviceable interior. This works uniquely well on a steel boat because steel boats do not rely as heavily on their interior components for their strength and because it is comparatively easy to weld a structurally robust tab almost anywhere it would be desired. 
(There are similar techniques employed in ‘stitch and glue’ construction, but it is harder to get a fair hull if too many liberties are taken with the major interior components, and it is less prudent to screw fasten the bulkheads and flats into place, since they conventionally serve as a part of the boat’s structural.

Cons: 
	Pound for pound, steel is one of the least efficient materials when viewed from a strength to weight standpoint. And in and of itself, adding hull and deck weight does nothing good for a boat. 
(I make this statement predicated solely from the standpoint of traditional yacht engineering principles, but I also know that there are people who will find this counterintuitive and others who will disagree with this entirely. I tend to believe in tried and true structural science, but I also know that there are folks, who are skeptical about science in any form. If you are one of those, there will be no practical manner to have a meaningful discussion on this. 

I also know that there are a lot of reasons that this may seem counterintuitive. For example if you pick up a piece of structural steel, it looks and feels nearly indestructible. Pick up a similar thickness piece of wood or fiberglass, there is not that same tactile sense of pure strength. 

But steel is a very dense material. If we had equal volume blocks of steel, fiberglass, and a fir/cedar/ fiberglass composite, the steel would weigh four times as much as the fiberglass and approximately 17 times the weight of the wood/fiberglass composite. So if were comparing equal weight hull samples, a 5/16” thick steel plate would weigh as much as 1.25” thick fiberglass, and nearly 5 ½” thick wood/fiberglass composite. And if you believe the structural science, comparing panels of the same weight fiberglass will have over 4 ½ times the bending strength and over 6 ½ times the stiffness of the same weight steel hull. The wood/fiberglass composite will have over 11 times the bending strength and over 200 times the stiffness of the same weight steel hull.

But of course, normally people do not build wooden or fiberglass hulls this thick on the size boat that might be plated with 5/16” steel. Which comes to the another reason why this seems counterintuitive. There is a tendency to compare production fiberglass boats to one off or limited production steel boats. For the most part, the vast majority of production boats are designed to be affordable coastal cruisers and with that as their mission they care comparatively lightly constructed. 

Often in these discussions we visualize a purpose constructed steel distance cruiser and compare it in our minds to some production coastal cruiser, and so it is easy to visualize steel as stronger. But if the mental comparison was between a composite hull of an equal weight to the steel, and think about the relative thicknesses of these materials, the intuitive strength advantage of steel would seem less obvious. 

And I must admit that this is not all that cut and dry. While there may be strength differences between the various steel types, and the strength of a steel boat may be compromised by bad welding, the general strength of a steel boat, is less variable than the potential mix of structural capabilities, which can be found in glass composite or wooden construction. 

Think for a moment of the strength differences between chopped glass set in a highly catalyzed polyester resin vs. a vacuum bagged Kevlar set in carefully calibrated vinylester resin. Or more dramatically, visualize a juniper edge-nailed, frameless, hull versus a cold molded cedar/fir laminate hull sheathed with Kevlar outer skins. 

So to be fair and accurate it is probably more appropriate to say, that pound for pound glass composite or wooden construction can be stronger than steel. But to do so requires the proper choices of glass or wood composite construction and frankly more sophisticated engineering. If one of the goals is to minimize design costs, then Brent is right that up to a point, steel Origami Construction can reduce design time and still result in large safety margins.)

	Speed of getting out there: 
There has been a lot of conversation suggesting that building an origami hull might be the fastest way to build a hull and deck. It may be, although ignoring the properties of the materials, I would suggest that stitch and glue plywood may be an equally quick way to build hull and deck. 

But the hull and deck represents a pretty small portion of the labor (time) and material costs to build a boat. My recollection is that a hull and deck is roughly 20-25% of the overall cost of the finished boat. In fairness, that percentage will vary from material to material, boat design to boat design, level of fit and finish, and derives from a time that long ago when my Mom was having boats built in Asia and importing them to the States, and so should not be seen as gospel. But the point remains that even saving a 1/3 or more on the hull and deck is a pretty small savings overall, and that for any given owner-builder, the level of fit-out, fit and finish would be pretty much the same no matter what the boat is built of. 

And if the goal is to build your own and get out there quickly, the fastest and cheapest answer may be to buy a really tired, f.g. boat, with a suitable cruising design (i.e. not some coastal cruiser, or cruiser racer) gut it and build it back using the same level of fit and finish that you planned to use on the steel boat, but save the time building and coating the hull. Of course, that only works if you do not have your mind set on owning a steel boat. 

	Noise:
I have always been amazed at how noisy steel boats are. As Brent points out, you can use sprayed in foam, which is great stuff in terms of sound-deading and thermal insulation. But it’s just another step and another cost. And while the foam can be removed, it does make it harder to access the hull should you need to. Also many if not most foams will support fire. So will wood and fiberglass, but it somewhat reduces the theoretical non-combustible advantage of steel. 

	Electrolysis:
In my life I have seen a steel hull come out of the water with the bottom peppered with small pin holes due to stray current and bad wiring. I have heard numerous stories of serious electrolysis problems on steel boats when I worked in boat yards. Electrolysis can happen to any boat with metal parts in the water, but it becomes a critical concern with a steel hull, especially in high salinity, warm water, or crowded harbors. 

	Resale:
Whatever else you can say about steel, at least in the States there is a prejudice against steel as a boat building material. And that suppresses the resale value and number of willing buyers of a steel boat perhaps more than it should, at least relative to more widely accepted materials like fiberglass. 

	Corrosion:
All boat building materials deteriorate eventually. Brent makes a case that properly built and properly maintained, steel boats should require a minimum of low skilled maintenance. It could be argued that it’s not much more labor intensive to paint an entire steel hull than it is to wax the topsides of a fiberglass boat. I actually buy that argument. But unlike fiberglass, if you do not recoat bare steel, corrosion will start and spread quickly. Whether it ever reaches a level of corrosion that undermines the structural capabilities of the boat depends on the nature of the design, build and maintenance. 

Assuming for the moment that corrosion may not be a problem on the specific boats that Brent built, but in the context of a general discussion of the pros and cons of steel boats, the issue corrosion is a serious one, one that would discourage many potential boat buyers. It ultimately was one of the deal killers when I considered a steel hull.


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## smackdaddy

You ought to submit that to a cruising mag Jeff. That's quality stuff.


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## kimbottles

As a reader who came to this discussion late that was a very helpful summary Jeff, thank you!!


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## bobperry

Man I wish I had your typing skills and patience Jeff.

Should we start a new thread for the alu skiff?


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## Jeff_H

smackdaddy said:


> You ought to submit that to a cruising mag Jeff. That's quality stuff.


Thank you. Years ago I had written a series of 'technology of sailing' articles for Cruising World but it was just when the magazine was sold, so the series was never published.


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## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> While there has been a lot of interesting give and take in this tread, I must admit that it concernrs me a little that this thread has gone so far off the rails. This seems like a very worthwhile topic which could be a simple and linear dialogue on a moderately complex set of discussion points.
> 
> Instead, it has become the proverbial equivalent of the ********, clinging to whatever relevant or irrelevant issue it touches and dragging that issue along for often many semi-vitriolic pages at a time.
> 
> If SailNet was not the online equivalent of a waterside bar, it seems like it all should have been a lot simpler than this. And while it can be seen as inevitable that life style and economics figure into almost any conversation exploring alternative ways of going cruising, this thread has picked up more than its fair share of effluvia.
> 
> I do think that within the off-topic aspects of this discussion there are useful insights into how various sailors view the sport, and more specifically cruising. I think that it is useful to see these contrasting views of sailing and cruising and understand the seemingly broad range of viewpoints from distance cruising is the sole appropriate end unto itself, to views of sailing and cruising as a merely an adjunct part of a life well lived.
> 
> Within this thread there are similar debates about performance, survivability and aesthetics, with individuals claiming theirs is the one universally right position. (At least from my point of view, there is no such thing as one universally right way to enjoy sailing and cruising and that each individual gets to define their goals, tastes, fears, pleasures, priorities, budgets, and so on. And the only wrong answer is when that individual makes a decision that is at odds with their own defined preferences. But that's another topic for the next thread.)
> 
> But that aside, I thought it would be useful to gather the points which address the basic subject of the Pros and Cons of steel construction as well as some of the related subjects. And drawing on the old political saw that every one gets to have their own opinion but no gets to have make up their own facts, I also think that there are a lot of 'facts' within this thread and a bunch of opinion being presented as fact.
> 
> If you weigh through the ebb and flow of these 1,400 or so posts, there are actually quite a few really good points about the pros and cons of steel construction. And while not everyone will agree on all of these points, I thought it might be useful to try to summarize the main ones (at least the ones that I agree with anyway). I also apologize that this is absurdly long and that I cut and pasted much of this from earlier discussions.
> 
> Pros:
> Steel Construction in general:
> 	Steel offers a lot of strength in a very small volumetric area. This allows a comparatively low volume for skin and framing, and so more useable living space and storage space within the shell.
> 	Steel offers a tremendous amount of abrasion resistance.
> 	The materials for a steel hull can be purchased relatively inexpensively.
> 	(Assuming that the boat builder can deal with inclement weather) A steel hull can be constructed out in the weather saving the costs of leasing a large space to building.
> 	If a 'work boat' style finish is acceptable then finishes can be relatively inexpensive and should be fully within the range of skills of an amateur.
> 	Steel construction permits the fabrication of robust integral fittings which in turn minimizes the opportunity for hull and deck leaks. This is especially true if a steel deck is used since the welded hull to deck joint results in an effectively monolithic connection.
> 	An amateur with good welding skills and access to a decent quality welding and steel handling equipment can fabricate his own boat.
> 	Repairs to steel hulls can almost always be made in a manner that restores complete structural integrity.
> 	Steel boats are nearly infinitely re-buildable.
> 	Steel does not have an inherent structural load path orientation and so can disburse and absorb loading equally well in all directions. This is especially useful in impact loads which tend to occur in random directions relative to the normal service load paths.
> 	Steel has an inherent ductility which allows it to deform rather than puncture in an impact.
> 	Small steel vessels (perhaps under 40 or so feet) can be constructed essentially monocoque, with a minimum of framing, doublers and/or other forms of reinforcing. This is a bit of a trade off since omitting framing requires addition skin thickness and potentially results in greater overall weight. As boats get larger, the concentrated loadings from the keel, rudder, and sail plan loads become exponentially larger relative to the skin loadings, and so at some point knees, bulkheads, and stringers become critical to distributing these loads into the skin.
> 	The ability to weld together various boat components, and steel's ability to deal with a pretty wide range of temperatures offer construction options such as pouring lead ballast right in the keel cavity, or having integral engine cooling water heat exchangers that are integral with the keel or hull.
> 
> Neither Pro or Con;
> 	Steel durability requires proper protection of the steel from corrosion. This is especially important on the interior of the boat and in high wear areas. Brent outlines his methods for prepping and painting the interior of the steel and describes a very long life span for that approach. But Brent also notes that almost no steel builders besides him do it his way and so based on Brent's experience, corrosion problems in steel boats from other builders are much more likely to be problematic.
> (My experience with older steel boats is that they have a comparatively short life. When I worked for Charlie Wittholz, I worked on drawings for a steel power boat. Charlie's standard spec's called for the interior of the boat to be sandblasted 'white', coated with a zinc rich epoxy, and then coated with several coats of coal tar epoxy. The interior of boats to within a foot vertically of the bottom of the turn of the bilge were then sprayed with closed cell foam. 20 years later that boat showed up in Annapolis. By then, the owners had replaced much of the bottom plating since it had rusted to a point where it had failed survey and there were still areas that were rusted (from memory) to less than approximately 1/8" of material remaining. There were several differences between the construction of this boat and the Origami boats in this boat was hard-chined and had transverse and longitudinal framing. The corrosion occurred in a variety of areas of the bottom, but quite a bit of it was near the framing.)
> 	The introduction of sacrificial or non-corroding wear surfaces at edges and other high wear points can reduce the amount of touch up which needs to be performed to protect the exterior surfaces.
> 	It is harder to get steel yacht with a 'fine yacht finish'. For some people and some sailing preferences, simple utilitarian, 'tool' like finishes are appealing and make complete sense. But many people consider the visual aspects of a finely shaped and finely finished boat an important part of the sailing experience and for them, it becomes very expensive and labor intensive to achieve and maintain that level of finish.
> (I personally do not see either approach as being inherently superior. Frankly, since the recession, Synergy is far closer in finish to a utilitarian chic' than she is to a fine yacht. She has her fair share of 'Franken-hardware' in which old discarded hardware was brought back to life and/or adapted for a specific use for which it never was intended, of new hardware fabricated from scrap. Her decks sorely need to be painted. Her lack of pristine aesthetic maintenance does not alter the quality of the sailing experience for me, but does bother my wife. By the same token, I do admire a well kept boat.)
> 	It is much harder to achieve high performance capabilities in a steel hull, especially in a smaller boat. That said, as Brent rightly points out, for many, if not most, serious cruisers, ultimate speed is not an end all- be all and a properly designed steel boat can achieve relatively decent performance on a par with many heavy displacement cruising boats constructed in other materials.
> 
> Origami Construction:
> 	Since framing and additional reinforcement areas can be mostly eliminated it potentially reduces fabrication time, and corrosion problems.
> 	Done properly Origami Construction reduces the construction time for the hull by eliminating the fabrication time for framing, and reducing the length of cuts and welds. If the cut pattern is accurate and cut with precision, Origami Construction should produce a comparatively fair hull form requiring a minimum, if any, fairing.
> 	Origami Construction lends itself to a broader range of materials than steel. There is a lot of discussion of the plus and minuses of using aluminum for Origami Construction. The major plus is a reduction in hull weight. The negatives of aluminum are an incrementally greater material cost, the need for more specialized welding skills and equipment, the need to build in a controlled environment, trickier finishing choices, higher electrolysis risks, and less abrasion resistance. To a great extent stitch and glue plywood construction is a form of Origami Construction as well but I see that as off-topic.
> 	Structurally non-framed steel construction is a mixed bag. It can be argued that adding frames can increase the likelihood that the plating will sheer on impact should the impact occur on the skin near a frame. In the absence of a frame, the skin is more likely to absorb the impact by deflecting out of shape and in the case of a minor impact be able to be pressured back into shape. The flip side of that is that framing is very effective in distributing loads to a much larger area. Where frameless construction can be more resistant to very concentrated point loads like hitting a corner of a shipping container, framed construction is more effective in distributing large area impact such as might be the case a vessel dropping on its side on reef in big waves or getting pressed up against a dock.
> 	There is a surprising range of hull forms that can be achieved using Origami construction from the loosely 1970's era cruising hull forms on Brent's boats, to more modern higher performance shapes.
> 	Using Origami Construction is hard to create a hull form that does not have chines on some portion of the hull. To one degree or another, chines add drag, the amount of which is dependent on the shape, placement on the hull, and the angle of heel of the boat. It can be argued that this drag is of minimal significance in a heavy displacement for their length cruising hull forms whose owners are usually people who are not concerned with achieving high levels of performance. There are high performance hull forms which have chines, but these depend on comparatively light displacements for their lengths which is hard to achieve in small steel, distance-cruising boats.
> 
> Owner Builder-Amateur builder- Custom Builder
> 	While not strictly a steel construction issue, a lot of the discussion has focused on Owner, amateur, and custom boat builders. In that regard, steel readily lends itself to one off construction and to amateur boat builders. So do a lot of other materials, but not all materials are equally suited to one off construction.
> 	While many, if not most people can learn to weld and cut steel, like any manual skill, some people are likely to have an aptitude for metal fabrication, while others can eventually be taught, and still others will never be able to safely build a steel boat. This is not a knock on steel construction per se, because there are people who have no manual skills and lack the aptitude to learn these skills.
> (In my case for example, I first learned to weld by attending a night course at a community college. I took the course with a friend of mine. From the first class on, no matter what type of weld we were learning that night my friend was able to lay down a good weld. It was much more of a struggle for me. With practice my welds became better, but they never were as clean and crisp as my friends. Its not that I never learned to weld at all. I built motorcycle frames using light gauge steel and chrome-molly tubing, and have made a variety of odds and ends, but I have a tough time thinking that I would ever get proficient enough to build a steel boat. By the same token, I am a pretty skilled woodworker and I have worked in boat yards doing glass work, and so if I wanted to build another boat I would probably be more comfortable working in wood or glass composites. I do not mean to suggest that either steel or wood, or glass are better materials for amateur boat building. My point here is that we all have our own skill sets and aptitudes and these are likely to shape a decision regarding 'the right material' for any particular person to chose if they were to build a boat.)
> 	The comparatively stiff nature of steel means that a minimum of temporary frames or supporting jigs are required. This saves material and fabrication time. This also means that almost any part that is fabricated, will remain as a part of the boat. That is a very efficient way to build a boat. By the same token, this is not unique to steel construction. This is also generally true of other panelized ways of constructing a boat.
> 	The panelized nature of steel construction allows a comparatively simply layout of the individual hull skin panels, and that saves lofting and fabrication time. In the case of a computer drafted design, it is possible to have very precise, full size, computer generated cutting patterns. These also save time, and helps assure a more precise rendition of the intended design. While Brent advocates purchasing full length plate as a time saver, in the situation where this is not available or practical, the use of computer generated patterns, allows efficient 'nesting patterns' to be developed in order to minimize waste.
> 	Computer aided design also permits designers to produce full scale cutting patterns for interior components and again that saves time and material. This is actually more useful for other boat building materials than with steel.
> 	Brent advocates a method for constructing steel boat interiors, which greatly reduces the need for precision cutting and fitting. Basically, steel tabs are welded to the hull wherever a wood bulkhead or flat comes up against the hull. Because these are comparatively short and discontinuous, it is easier to place then precisely and to avoid distortion of the skin. The bulkheads and flats are then screw fastened into place. There is a lot to be said for this approach. It allows for an interior which can be readily disassembled to provide access to the skin, or other components of the boat. With modern self-drilling, self-tapping fastenings this should be a comparatively fast and easy way to achieve a serviceable interior. This works uniquely well on a steel boat because steel boats do not rely as heavily on their interior components for their strength and because it is comparatively easy to weld a structurally robust tab almost anywhere it would be desired.
> (There are similar techniques employed in 'stitch and glue' construction, but it is harder to get a fair hull if too many liberties are taken with the major interior components, and it is less prudent to screw fasten the bulkheads and flats into place, since they conventionally serve as a part of the boat's structural.
> 
> Cons:
> 	Pound for pound, steel is one of the least efficient materials when viewed from a strength to weight standpoint. And in and of itself, adding hull and deck weight does nothing good for a boat.
> (I make this statement predicated solely from the standpoint of traditional yacht engineering principles, but I also know that there are people who will find this counterintuitive and others who will disagree with this entirely. I tend to believe in tried and true structural science, but I also know that there are folks, who are skeptical about science in any form. If you are one of those, there will be no practical manner to have a meaningful discussion on this.
> 
> I also know that there are a lot of reasons that this may seem counterintuitive. For example if you pick up a piece of structural steel, it looks and feels nearly indestructible. Pick up a similar thickness piece of wood or fiberglass, there is not that same tactile sense of pure strength.
> 
> But steel is a very dense material. If we had equal volume blocks of steel, fiberglass, and a fir/cedar/ fiberglass composite, the steel would weigh four times as much as the fiberglass and approximately 17 times the weight of the wood/fiberglass composite. So if were comparing equal weight hull samples, a 5/16" thick steel plate would weigh as much as 1.25" thick fiberglass, and nearly 5 ½" thick wood/fiberglass composite. And if you believe the structural science, comparing panels of the same weight fiberglass will have over 4 ½ times the bending strength and over 6 ½ times the stiffness of the same weight steel hull. The wood/fiberglass composite will have over 11 times the bending strength and over 200 times the stiffness of the same weight steel hull.
> 
> But of course, normally people do not build wooden or fiberglass hulls this thick on the size boat that might be plated with 5/16" steel. Which comes to the another reason why this seems counterintuitive. There is a tendency to compare production fiberglass boats to one off or limited production steel boats. For the most part, the vast majority of production boats are designed to be affordable coastal cruisers and with that as their mission they care comparatively lightly constructed.
> 
> Often in these discussions we visualize a purpose constructed steel distance cruiser and compare it in our minds to some production coastal cruiser, and so it is easy to visualize steel as stronger. But if the mental comparison was between a composite hull of an equal weight to the steel, and think about the relative thicknesses of these materials, the intuitive strength advantage of steel would seem less obvious.
> 
> And I must admit that this is not all that cut and dry. While there may be strength differences between the various steel types, and the strength of a steel boat may be compromised by bad welding, the general strength of a steel boat, is less variable than the potential mix of structural capabilities, which can be found in glass composite or wooden construction.
> 
> Think for a moment of the strength differences between chopped glass set in a highly catalyzed polyester resin vs. a vacuum bagged Kevlar set in carefully calibrated vinylester resin. Or more dramatically, visualize a juniper edge-nailed, frameless, hull versus a cold molded cedar/fir laminate hull sheathed with Kevlar outer skins.
> 
> So to be fair and accurate it is probably more appropriate to say, that pound for pound glass composite or wooden construction can be stronger than steel. But to do so requires the proper choices of glass or wood composite construction and frankly more sophisticated engineering. If one of the goals is to minimize design costs, then Brent is right that up to a point, steel Origami Construction can reduce design time and still result in large safety margins.)
> 
> 	Speed of getting out there:
> There has been a lot of conversation suggesting that building an origami hull might be the fastest way to build a hull and deck. It may be, although ignoring the properties of the materials, I would suggest that stitch and glue plywood may be an equally quick way to build hull and deck.
> 
> But the hull and deck represents a pretty small portion of the labor (time) and material costs to build a boat. My recollection is that a hull and deck is roughly 20-25% of the overall cost of the finished boat. In fairness, that percentage will vary from material to material, boat design to boat design, level of fit and finish, and derives from a time that long ago when my Mom was having boats built in Asia and importing them to the States, and so should not be seen as gospel. But the point remains that even saving a 1/3 or more on the hull and deck is a pretty small savings overall, and that for any given owner-builder, the level of fit-out, fit and finish would be pretty much the same no matter what the boat is built of.
> 
> And if the goal is to build your own and get out there quickly, the fastest and cheapest answer may be to buy a really tired, f.g. boat, with a suitable cruising design (i.e. not some coastal cruiser, or cruiser racer) gut it and build it back using the same level of fit and finish that you planned to use on the steel boat, but save the time building and coating the hull. Of course, that only works if you do not have your mind set on owning a steel boat.
> 
> 	Noise:
> I have always been amazed at how noisy steel boats are. As Brent points out, you can use sprayed in foam, which is great stuff in terms of sound-deading and thermal insulation. But it's just another step and another cost. And while the foam can be removed, it does make it harder to access the hull should you need to. Also many if not most foams will support fire. So will wood and fiberglass, but it somewhat reduces the theoretical non-combustible advantage of steel.
> 
> 	Electrolysis:
> In my life I have seen a steel hull come out of the water with the bottom peppered with small pin holes due to stray current and bad wiring. I have heard numerous stories of serious electrolysis problems on steel boats when I worked in boat yards. Electrolysis can happen to any boat with metal parts in the water, but it becomes a critical concern with a steel hull, especially in high salinity, warm water, or crowded harbors.
> 
> 	Resale:
> Whatever else you can say about steel, at least in the States there is a prejudice against steel as a boat building material. And that suppresses the resale value and number of willing buyers of a steel boat perhaps more than it should, at least relative to more widely accepted materials like fiberglass.
> 
> 	Corrosion:
> All boat building materials deteriorate eventually. Brent makes a case that properly built and properly maintained, steel boats should require a minimum of low skilled maintenance. It could be argued that it's not much more labor intensive to paint an entire steel hull than it is to wax the topsides of a fiberglass boat. I actually buy that argument. But unlike fiberglass, if you do not recoat bare steel, corrosion will start and spread quickly. Whether it ever reaches a level of corrosion that undermines the structural capabilities of the boat depends on the nature of the design, build and maintenance.
> 
> Assuming for the moment that corrosion may not be a problem on the specific boats that Brent built, but in the context of a general discussion of the pros and cons of steel boats, the issue corrosion is a serious one, one that would discourage many potential boat buyers. It ultimately was one of the deal killers when I considered a steel hull.


Excellent summation! While I disagree with some of the cons, which I will deal with later, you have summed up more than 98 % of it very well, and have largely answered the initial question.


----------



## Brent Swain

copacabana said:


> I'm sure Brent will chime in shortly with some good advice. His book has the plans for an origami aluminium dinghy that can perhaps be tinkered with to get Bob's shapes. I'd love to see this go forward- the world needs a decent aluminium nesting dinghy!


You can experiment with a cereal box and scissors to get an idea of what shapes you can get with origami. Designing an origami dinghy should go back and forth from drawings and calculations to a model, and back again.
Many friends have made aluminium dinghies, and cut them in half for nesting dinghies. All have been extremely happy with the results.


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
So you are saying I have to see what I can get with the model before pinning the drawing down? I kind of figured that. But I'm hoping with some 3D modelling we can short cut the process a bit.

I'd sure like you opinion on scantlings for a 15' skiff.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Desert's post got me thinking. I laid awake all night thinking.
> 
> An alu 15' by 3.5' double ended row boat in Brent's origami method. I'd need help from Brent as I don't know how much shape or even what shape I can get in the ends. I have end shapes in mind. I just don't know if they will wrk in the origami method.
> 
> I need e new boat for my rocky beach and this could be the boat. I need to sketch a bit and do a quick weight estimate. I'd figure 1/8" plate for durability. I was thinking a .25" thick centerline backbone plate.
> 
> I'm going to come up with a drawing in the next few days. I'll post it here and see if I can get Brent to comment on the details. If this is workable I'll make the plans available free. The key will be being able to control the shapes in the ends so I can get the numbers and look that I want.


It shouldn't be too hard. Origami is as simple as it looks. I'll be happy to give you all the help you need, but my internet access can be sporadic, and sometimes brief, as I cruise full time.


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## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Man I wish I had your typing skills and patience Jeff.
> 
> Should we start a new thread for the alu skiff?


The "Fukushima Skiff"?
The "Ballpeen Dinghy"?
The "Origami Punt"?
The "Cut and Paste Tjotter"?
The "Swaintology Shallop"?
The "PerrySwain Shikara"?

The marketing department is on it.


----------



## Brent Swain

chall03 said:


> Sigh.
> 
> Brent, if you genuinely believe that Sully runs a great site and that he is a great moderator then that explains to me alot about your perspective.
> 
> I assume in you saying he is a great moderator you are aware of past allegations of him threatening physical violence on SN members, as well as his mud slinging campaign where at one time he accused a SN member of child porn.
> 
> If you do believe him to be a beacon of balanced opinion and free speech I would again encourage you to go frequent his playbox.
> 
> Smack my hero??? Nah.
> 
> If I cared what you thought that much I would post links to several different threads where I have actively disagreed with him. He is a good guy though, and funny. You are neither.
> 
> I'm not going to debate you on boat design anymore. There are those here far more qualified than I to so, and from where I sit they sir have wiped the floor with you.
> 
> Brent, you have done more to harm your name and your business in this thread than the 'plastic salesman' could of in a lifetime.


I haven't seen any of the posts by Sully which you claim. Given the irrational, childishness of those who dedicate themselves to obsessive attacks, which he must have to deal with, all for providing an exchange of information to help cruisers, I can understand him losing his cool.

Sporadic and limited internet access here has limited my ability to respond to all the negative disinformation others have given , putting me at a disadvantage in these debates, but while my critics have been siting at their computers for hours on end , which I don't have the option nor the inclination to do, saying I'm doing it all wrong, I have been cruising for months on end , in one if the best cruising grounds in the world ( which I thought was the whole point) while the guys who do it the other way, spend a year working ,in order to spend three weeks here. 
So who is wiping the floor with who?
Almost all of those you say are wiping the floor with me, have almost zero experience in the subject at hand , long term cruising in, maintaining and and building, steel sailboats . Its easy to be considered "Right ", by someone with no experience in the subject at hand . Is your interpretation based on the same lack of experience in the subject at hand? If so, then your conclusions are meaningless.
My comments are not necessarily aimed at my relatively tiny percentage of critics on this site, but those many other silent readers on this site who get it. Those who don't, I don't give a rats ass about, and am happy to drive them away, and not have to deal with their consumer gullibility.


----------



## outbound

Great job Jeff- Thank you. 
Like you I seriously contemplated doing a steel boat but for me cons outweighed the pros. Your points about cold molded wood epoxy with appropriate skins or strip plank are well taken but again in the U.S. at least you are faced with resale issues. From a purely economic perspective I think for cruisers and the lofty few who get to be voyagers some form of grp will continue to lead the pack in numbers of new hulls and of course in refits. The issue of being able to leave the boat to deal with "home" issues or defer maintenance to continue cruising without putting the basic structure at risk ( as long as zincs are changed) was a huge consideration for me.


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## bobperry

Brent:
I want a durable skiff I can drag up on my rocky beach.
I was thinking 1/8" pl skins.
With bow and stern seat and rowing thwart I can conveniently put in frames so my biggest unsupported panel is 36". I was thinking .25" frames to support the seats and the shell.

I like the idea of a backbone that I can sculpt at stem and "sternpost" and get some skeg below the shell for tracking. I was thinking .375" pl for the backbone.

Do you think these thicknesses are overkill? I was hoping a nice thick skin would stay fair.
I need to do a weight study. I'd love to keep it around 100 lbs.

What do you think? Am I in the ballpark?


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## bobperry

I like the Ballpeen Fifteen.

That's exactly what I am going to call it.


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## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> I like the Ballpeen Fifteen.
> 
> That's exactly what I am going to call it.


Row the hammer beeches!


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## bobperry

When I look around at the people around me I do not make the assumption that everyone desires to live the way I do. We all have our own personal lifestyles. That doesn't bother me at all. My preferred lifestyle is mine. I don't want to cruise all the time. I have my shack on the beach. Well, it's not exactly a "shack" but I like to call it a shack. I did a custom 70'er for a client who always referred to the boat as his "tub". I have a big, spacious office where I can display my guitar collection and indulge myself in my hobby of hi end hi-fi gear surounded by all the tools I need to comfortably do my designing. I pretty much live in my office. The rest of the shack is comfy and cabin like except for my 62' long indoor swimming pool. It's certainly modest by many standards but it is the house I always dreamed of and I had a large hand in its design. So, no. I don't want to cruise in a small boat all the time. I really don't want to go anywhere at all. I like it right here. If I could choose to spend three weeks somewhere. I think I'd choose to spend it here with my wife, my dogs and my cat. Some of you probably think I'm nuts. Well, maybe I am. I have some Ravel on now. He was a bit nuts too.

What I think I just might want, maybe, right now is an alu skiff.


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## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> Man I wish I had your typing skills and patience Jeff.
> 
> Should we start a new thread for the alu skiff?


Starting a new thread for the aluminum skiff might actually make sense. I had wanted to comment that I thought that it was very cool that your '3D' software guy was able to generate 'developable' curve designs. I have always had concerns about being able to accurately predict (without computer modeling) the shape of a panel that is formed into a developable curve.

Back in the late 1970's, I designed a little 11'-0" one-design young person training boat that looked like a minature hard-chine Laser or a Force 5. The idea behind this boat was that it could be a parent and child project that could be built pretty easily over a couple weekends with a couple sheets of plywood, some pine shelving, some 1x2's and some ring nails.

I was concerned about how much I could twist the bow panels and about the their precise final shape once twisted into place. I ended up buying some door skins and building a reasonably precise jig that allowed me to clamp the door skin in place at the precise shape and angle of the bottom, and then bend it 90 degrees to form the stem angle. The jig was set up with ledgers that let me precisely measure offsets and diagonals to the inside of the skin and I used those offsets to create my bow drawings and precisely shape the forward bulkhead and produce bevels for the edges.

I always worried about that one aspect of the design. As it turned out, the club decided to buy the same (more expensive) one-design class that was in use at other local clubs, which was probably the right move even though it meant fewer boats. I was very disappointed those boats were never built but on the other hand, it did reduce my stress over wondering whether I had the bow right. I had planned to loft and help build the first boat, and had planned to carefully measure the bevels and the shape of that bulkhead once it was faired and the bottom planking trial fit.

Anyway, I must say that it's much easier to have software do that kind of thing.

Jeff


----------



## AlaskaMC

bobperry said:


> If I could choose to spend three weeks somewhere. I think I'd choose to spend it here with my wife, my dogs and my cat.


You don't hear this enough in the world. I hear too many men (and the ladies too) talk about getting time away from each other. Good on ya.

Not to mention your a music appreciator too. Used to be an opera major way back when I was young. Good to hear that some folks still listen to the masters and yet like other music as well.


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> I haven't seen any of the posts by Sully which you claim. Given the irrational, childishness of those who dedicate themselves to obsessive attacks, which he must have to deal with, all for providing an exchange of information to help cruisers, I can understand him losing his cool.
> 
> Sporadic and limited internet access here has limited my ability to respond to all the negative disinformation others have given , putting me at a disadvantage in these debates, but while my critics have been siting at their computers for hours on end , which I don't have the option nor the inclination to do, saying I'm doing it all wrong, I have been cruising for months on end , in one if the best cruising grounds in the world ( which I thought was the whole point) while the guys who do it the other way, spend a year working ,in order to spend three weeks here.
> So who is wiping the floor with who?
> Almost all of those you say are wiping the floor with me, have almost zero experience in the subject at hand , long term cruising in, maintaining and and building, steel sailboats . Its easy to be considered "Right ", by someone with no experience in the subject at hand . Is your interpretation based on the same lack of experience in the subject at hand? If so, then your conclusions are meaningless.
> My comments are not necessarily aimed at my relatively tiny percentage of critics on this site, but those many other silent readers on this site who get it. Those who don't, I don't give a rats ass about, and am happy to drive them away, and not have to deal with their consumer gullibility.


I am looking forward to you helping Bob design the Ballpeen Fifteen.


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## AlaskaMC

I am curious if the design would also work stitch and glue if it works for origami construction. While a aluminum skiff would be great up here, I am more of a woodworker than welder and I have no ability to weld aluminum.


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## Capt Len

Pulling a compound curve into alum plate should be easier than trying to get the same shape in stitch and glue which lends itself to multi chines I've seen some amazing shapes in tortured ply kayaks so it's all about the design. Know any good designers around?


----------



## blt2ski

Capt Len said:


> Pulling a compound curve into alum plate should be easier than trying to get the same shape in stitch and glue which lends itself to multi chines I've seen some amazing shapes in tortured ply kayaks so it's all about the design. *Know any good designers around*?


No good ones, we seem to have an excellent one, and one I am not sure about around tho! so which would you like, unknown, excellent or good?:laugher

Marty


----------



## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> Jeff, Man I wish I had your typing skills and patience.
> 
> 
> 
> Bob,
> 
> I actually don't type all that fast. I never would have gotten that done if I hadn't been stuck in Airports for several hours. This weekend I flew out to Michigan for a ground breaking on a Cadillac-LaSalle Museum that I designed. The flights were delayed on the way out so I had time in the airport to start that. I finished it while waiting for the return flight.
> 
> The Cadillac LaSalle Museum has been a fun project. We won the commission in a design competition and then ended up being asked to replicate a 1949 building that was designed by a commercial artist at GM and which was never actually constructed as it was originally sketched, and probably could not have been constructed using 1949 technology. It has been a real structural challenge.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, my initial reaction is that 1/8" plating seems a little thick if you are trying to stay under a 100 lbs., but a calculation will tell you that for sure. My recollection of production aluminum boats is that the skins are less than 1/16", but then again, I assume that is also why they are riveted and not welded.
> 
> Thinking about stitch and glue construction (Alaska MC's question), I would think that a plywood hull planking would need to be thicker than the aluminum in order to have adequate bending strength. If that is the case, the plywood would be substantially stiffer than the aluminum and so less likely to conform to as tight a radius as the aluminum.
> 
> That said, if Bob's design did not include a tight radius, then the design should be readily adaptable to stitch and glue, in which case if I personally were choosing between aluminum and stitch and glue, I would pick stitch and glue, and then vacuum bag a kevlar sheathing on the bottom to address impact and abrasion. I suspect it would be lighter and would also be cheaper than trying to pay a welder who is skilled enough to weld thin aluminum plate.
> 
> Jeff
Click to expand...


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## bobperry

Nice, retro looking building Jeff. Well done.


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## bobperry

This is starting to come together.
I'm thinking of .08" alu plate for the skin. Weight of hull 78 lbs.

Could be plywood. Could be nesting. Mine will be alu and will not nest.


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## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> Nice, retro looking building Jeff. Well done.


Thank you for the kind words...


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## bobperry

Perry Peener Peapod:
Will have to go .09 plate to get the 5052 ally. 5086 would be better but it's more dough and I don't think necessary for a boat that will live in my yard most of the time.


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## AlaskaMC

That isnt really a big difference in weight from what a wood version would be in 6-9 mm Okoume. How much weight do you think would be added with the full outfit in aluminum?

Looking great. Just what I need, another boat to build and another boat! 

(On the note of too many boats, I was at WM the other day and they wanted me to sign up for their frequent flyer (or whatever they call it) club. They asked how many boats I had, and while counting to myself the girl heard me hit 10 and she interrupted and said, that there was only and option for 5 or more. )


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## Bob142

I would like to thank Smack for reposting all of Brent's post...I always look for the positives and liked the idea of his blocks with aluminum and cutting boards...So I made one out of stainless that cost $1.80 a pound ... Since I wanted 3/4 pulleys I could only find 1/2 inch cutting boards so I will have to wait till I can get commercial hi-density...Will post pictures when complete...


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## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> This is starting to come together.
> I'm thinking of .08" alu plate for the skin. Weight of hull 78 lbs.
> 
> Could be plywood. Could be nesting. Mine will be alu and will not nest.


Very cool! 78 lbs is a nice light weight for a 16 foot hull.

Its hard to tell from the perspective, but you might have enough stability to be able to add a rudder, daggerboard, and a sliding gunter rig that could stow in the boat. You could also build a pretty simple set of outriggers out if small dia. aluminum tubing and a simple sliding seat rowing rig using aluminum channel and roller blade wheels.

I see it all now....

Yeah, that's the ticket....

Jeff


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## bobperry

If we go with the heavier plate and that's all we can get in 5052, then the hull will be closer to 100 lbs. and I estimate another 35 lbs. for the seats and seat frames, side deck, outrigger for the oars, breast hook and fanny hook. I have not estimated the weight of the backbone yet. But I have already used some ideas to reduce seat and seat framing weight and I did not include those weight savings tricks in my weights here. I was trying to be conservative.

Then there is the weight of the oars and rowlocks. Me, 225 lbs., Violet 25 lbs., Ruby 50 lbs.. I am looking right now at designing to a dwl load displ of 500 lb..

I am not figuring on a sailing rig but it could be done. It would probably almost double the cost. I'm talking to Jim Betts about building it and he should have a cost in a few days.

That hull image is a rough cut,i.e. a first try at working within the confines of the geometric process for the origami method. Changes will certainly come. It can only get better.


----------



## Jeff_H

AlaskaMC said:


> That isnt really a big difference in weight from what a wood version would be in 6-9 mm Okoume


You might get by with 4mm okoume. That would weigh less than half of the weight of the aluminum per square foot, but would need a couple frames, some taped joints, and sheathing on the bottom, which should still be lighter than the aluminum but not by much.

Jeff


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## bobperry

Jeff:
As now drawn I have made allowances for frames at each of the three seats with two frames at the rowing thwart amidships. This leaves the biggest unsupported span at only 36". For nesting the skiff would break right at the forward side of the rowing thwart. It looks like plenty of framing to me.


----------



## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> "That hull image is a rough cut,i.e. a first try at working within the confines of the geometric process for the origami method. Changes will certainly come. It can only get better."
> 
> "Jeff:
> As now drawn I have made allowances for frames at each of the three seats with two frames at the rowing thwart amidships. This leaves the biggest unsupported span at only 36". For nesting the skiff would break right at the forward side of the rowing thwart. It looks like plenty of framing to me."


Your first rough cuts sure look a whole lot better than mine. Humm..I can't imagine why. I'll be interested in seeing the lines drawings as she develops. Rowing craft are always such a balancing act between wetted surface and stability.

My sense is that if you had the framing you mention along with a keelson, breasthooks, and some kind of shelf at the gunnel, that should be all the framing that you need. The nice thing is that if you built her and found her springy you could always add a few transverse floor frames.

Jeff


----------



## bobperry

Right now I have 4" wide "side decks". They could be 3". I thought 4" looked better but it's more weight.

Before we start I'll sit down with Jim Betts and go over everyway we can reduce weight. I may need to go on a diet.

I'm not going to post many images until it's all stiched up. No point in defending preliminary design work. I have to let drawings sit and "mature" a bit before I am ready to send them out in public. Sometimes I get up in the morning, look at what I drew the previous afternoon and I think, "Did I really draw that?"


----------



## bobperry

Oh yeah, I guess I should warn you:
This is not a simple Brent style one seam cut origami hull. This is "advanced origami" with three longitudinal cuts per side and two vertical cuts per side. The longl. cuts are quite a bit longer than Brent's. They go to just short of the ends. I just can't get enough control of the shape with one cut. It's more welding work but more control. I am determined not to let the method dictate the shape. But I have it "smashed out", i.e. unfolded so it can all be cut from one flat sheet per side. It looks really strange flattened out.

I could post the smashed version but I'm not sure I want to give away all my treasure yet. I'd hate to have someone run off and start cutting while we are still playng with the basic design.


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> While there has been a lot of interesting give and take in this tread, I must admit that it concernrs me a little that this thread has gone so far off the rails. This seems like a very worthwhile topic which could be a simple and linear dialogue on a moderately complex set of discussion points.
> 
> Instead, it has become the proverbial equivalent of the ********, clinging to whatever relevant or irrelevant issue it touches and dragging that issue along for often many semi-vitriolic pages at a time.
> 
> If SailNet was not the online equivalent of a waterside bar, it seems like it all should have been a lot simpler than this. And while it can be seen as inevitable that life style and economics figure into almost any conversation exploring alternative ways of going cruising, this thread has picked up more than its fair share of effluvia.
> 
> I do think that within the off-topic aspects of this discussion there are useful insights into how various sailors view the sport, and more specifically cruising. I think that it is useful to see these contrasting views of sailing and cruising and understand the seemingly broad range of viewpoints from distance cruising is the sole appropriate end unto itself, to views of sailing and cruising as a merely an adjunct part of a life well lived.
> 
> Within this thread there are similar debates about performance, survivability and aesthetics, with individuals claiming theirs is the one universally right position. (At least from my point of view, there is no such thing as one universally right way to enjoy sailing and cruising and that each individual gets to define their goals, tastes, fears, pleasures, priorities, budgets, and so on. And the only wrong answer is when that individual makes a decision that is at odds with their own defined preferences. But that's another topic for the next thread.)
> 
> But that aside, I thought it would be useful to gather the points which address the basic subject of the Pros and Cons of steel construction as well as some of the related subjects. And drawing on the old political saw that every one gets to have their own opinion but no gets to have make up their own facts, I also think that there are a lot of 'facts' within this thread and a bunch of opinion being presented as fact.
> 
> If you weigh through the ebb and flow of these 1,400 or so posts, there are actually quite a few really good points about the pros and cons of steel construction. And while not everyone will agree on all of these points, I thought it might be useful to try to summarize the main ones (at least the ones that I agree with anyway). I also apologize that this is absurdly long and that I cut and pasted much of this from earlier discussions.
> 
> Pros:
> Steel Construction in general:
> 	Steel offers a lot of strength in a very small volumetric area. This allows a comparatively low volume for skin and framing, and so more useable living space and storage space within the shell.
> 	Steel offers a tremendous amount of abrasion resistance.
> 	The materials for a steel hull can be purchased relatively inexpensively.
> 	(Assuming that the boat builder can deal with inclement weather) A steel hull can be constructed out in the weather saving the costs of leasing a large space to building.
> 	If a 'work boat' style finish is acceptable then finishes can be relatively inexpensive and should be fully within the range of skills of an amateur.
> 	Steel construction permits the fabrication of robust integral fittings which in turn minimizes the opportunity for hull and deck leaks. This is especially true if a steel deck is used since the welded hull to deck joint results in an effectively monolithic connection.
> 	An amateur with good welding skills and access to a decent quality welding and steel handling equipment can fabricate his own boat.
> 	Repairs to steel hulls can almost always be made in a manner that restores complete structural integrity.
> 	Steel boats are nearly infinitely re-buildable.
> 	Steel does not have an inherent structural load path orientation and so can disburse and absorb loading equally well in all directions. This is especially useful in impact loads which tend to occur in random directions relative to the normal service load paths.
> 	Steel has an inherent ductility which allows it to deform rather than puncture in an impact.
> 	Small steel vessels (perhaps under 40 or so feet) can be constructed essentially monocoque, with a minimum of framing, doublers and/or other forms of reinforcing. This is a bit of a trade off since omitting framing requires addition skin thickness and potentially results in greater overall weight. As boats get larger, the concentrated loadings from the keel, rudder, and sail plan loads become exponentially larger relative to the skin loadings, and so at some point knees, bulkheads, and stringers become critical to distributing these loads into the skin.
> 	The ability to weld together various boat components, and steel's ability to deal with a pretty wide range of temperatures offer construction options such as pouring lead ballast right in the keel cavity, or having integral engine cooling water heat exchangers that are integral with the keel or hull.
> 
> Neither Pro or Con;
> 	Steel durability requires proper protection of the steel from corrosion. This is especially important on the interior of the boat and in high wear areas. Brent outlines his methods for prepping and painting the interior of the steel and describes a very long life span for that approach. But Brent also notes that almost no steel builders besides him do it his way and so based on Brent's experience, corrosion problems in steel boats from other builders are much more likely to be problematic.
> (My experience with older steel boats is that they have a comparatively short life. When I worked for Charlie Wittholz, I worked on drawings for a steel power boat. Charlie's standard spec's called for the interior of the boat to be sandblasted 'white', coated with a zinc rich epoxy, and then coated with several coats of coal tar epoxy. The interior of boats to within a foot vertically of the bottom of the turn of the bilge were then sprayed with closed cell foam. 20 years later that boat showed up in Annapolis. By then, the owners had replaced much of the bottom plating since it had rusted to a point where it had failed survey and there were still areas that were rusted (from memory) to less than approximately 1/8" of material remaining. There were several differences between the construction of this boat and the Origami boats in this boat was hard-chined and had transverse and longitudinal framing. The corrosion occurred in a variety of areas of the bottom, but quite a bit of it was near the framing.)
> 	The introduction of sacrificial or non-corroding wear surfaces at edges and other high wear points can reduce the amount of touch up which needs to be performed to protect the exterior surfaces.
> 	It is harder to get steel yacht with a 'fine yacht finish'. For some people and some sailing preferences, simple utilitarian, 'tool' like finishes are appealing and make complete sense. But many people consider the visual aspects of a finely shaped and finely finished boat an important part of the sailing experience and for them, it becomes very expensive and labor intensive to achieve and maintain that level of finish.
> (I personally do not see either approach as being inherently superior. Frankly, since the recession, Synergy is far closer in finish to a utilitarian chic' than she is to a fine yacht. She has her fair share of 'Franken-hardware' in which old discarded hardware was brought back to life and/or adapted for a specific use for which it never was intended, of new hardware fabricated from scrap. Her decks sorely need to be painted. Her lack of pristine aesthetic maintenance does not alter the quality of the sailing experience for me, but does bother my wife. By the same token, I do admire a well kept boat.)
> 	It is much harder to achieve high performance capabilities in a steel hull, especially in a smaller boat. That said, as Brent rightly points out, for many, if not most, serious cruisers, ultimate speed is not an end all- be all and a properly designed steel boat can achieve relatively decent performance on a par with many heavy displacement cruising boats constructed in other materials.
> 
> Origami Construction:
> 	Since framing and additional reinforcement areas can be mostly eliminated it potentially reduces fabrication time, and corrosion problems.
> 	Done properly Origami Construction reduces the construction time for the hull by eliminating the fabrication time for framing, and reducing the length of cuts and welds. If the cut pattern is accurate and cut with precision, Origami Construction should produce a comparatively fair hull form requiring a minimum, if any, fairing.
> 	Origami Construction lends itself to a broader range of materials than steel. There is a lot of discussion of the plus and minuses of using aluminum for Origami Construction. The major plus is a reduction in hull weight. The negatives of aluminum are an incrementally greater material cost, the need for more specialized welding skills and equipment, the need to build in a controlled environment, trickier finishing choices, higher electrolysis risks, and less abrasion resistance. To a great extent stitch and glue plywood construction is a form of Origami Construction as well but I see that as off-topic.
> 	Structurally non-framed steel construction is a mixed bag. It can be argued that adding frames can increase the likelihood that the plating will sheer on impact should the impact occur on the skin near a frame. In the absence of a frame, the skin is more likely to absorb the impact by deflecting out of shape and in the case of a minor impact be able to be pressured back into shape. The flip side of that is that framing is very effective in distributing loads to a much larger area. Where frameless construction can be more resistant to very concentrated point loads like hitting a corner of a shipping container, framed construction is more effective in distributing large area impact such as might be the case a vessel dropping on its side on reef in big waves or getting pressed up against a dock.
> 	There is a surprising range of hull forms that can be achieved using Origami construction from the loosely 1970's era cruising hull forms on Brent's boats, to more modern higher performance shapes.
> 	Using Origami Construction is hard to create a hull form that does not have chines on some portion of the hull. To one degree or another, chines add drag, the amount of which is dependent on the shape, placement on the hull, and the angle of heel of the boat. It can be argued that this drag is of minimal significance in a heavy displacement for their length cruising hull forms whose owners are usually people who are not concerned with achieving high levels of performance. There are high performance hull forms which have chines, but these depend on comparatively light displacements for their lengths which is hard to achieve in small steel, distance-cruising boats.
> 
> Owner Builder-Amateur builder- Custom Builder
> 	While not strictly a steel construction issue, a lot of the discussion has focused on Owner, amateur, and custom boat builders. In that regard, steel readily lends itself to one off construction and to amateur boat builders. So do a lot of other materials, but not all materials are equally suited to one off construction.
> 	While many, if not most people can learn to weld and cut steel, like any manual skill, some people are likely to have an aptitude for metal fabrication, while others can eventually be taught, and still others will never be able to safely build a steel boat. This is not a knock on steel construction per se, because there are people who have no manual skills and lack the aptitude to learn these skills.
> (In my case for example, I first learned to weld by attending a night course at a community college. I took the course with a friend of mine. From the first class on, no matter what type of weld we were learning that night my friend was able to lay down a good weld. It was much more of a struggle for me. With practice my welds became better, but they never were as clean and crisp as my friends. Its not that I never learned to weld at all. I built motorcycle frames using light gauge steel and chrome-molly tubing, and have made a variety of odds and ends, but I have a tough time thinking that I would ever get proficient enough to build a steel boat. By the same token, I am a pretty skilled woodworker and I have worked in boat yards doing glass work, and so if I wanted to build another boat I would probably be more comfortable working in wood or glass composites. I do not mean to suggest that either steel or wood, or glass are better materials for amateur boat building. My point here is that we all have our own skill sets and aptitudes and these are likely to shape a decision regarding 'the right material' for any particular person to chose if they were to build a boat.)
> 	The comparatively stiff nature of steel means that a minimum of temporary frames or supporting jigs are required. This saves material and fabrication time. This also means that almost any part that is fabricated, will remain as a part of the boat. That is a very efficient way to build a boat. By the same token, this is not unique to steel construction. This is also generally true of other panelized ways of constructing a boat.
> 	The panelized nature of steel construction allows a comparatively simply layout of the individual hull skin panels, and that saves lofting and fabrication time. In the case of a computer drafted design, it is possible to have very precise, full size, computer generated cutting patterns. These also save time, and helps assure a more precise rendition of the intended design. While Brent advocates purchasing full length plate as a time saver, in the situation where this is not available or practical, the use of computer generated patterns, allows efficient 'nesting patterns' to be developed in order to minimize waste.
> 	Computer aided design also permits designers to produce full scale cutting patterns for interior components and again that saves time and material. This is actually more useful for other boat building materials than with steel.
> 	Brent advocates a method for constructing steel boat interiors, which greatly reduces the need for precision cutting and fitting. Basically, steel tabs are welded to the hull wherever a wood bulkhead or flat comes up against the hull. Because these are comparatively short and discontinuous, it is easier to place then precisely and to avoid distortion of the skin. The bulkheads and flats are then screw fastened into place. There is a lot to be said for this approach. It allows for an interior which can be readily disassembled to provide access to the skin, or other components of the boat. With modern self-drilling, self-tapping fastenings this should be a comparatively fast and easy way to achieve a serviceable interior. This works uniquely well on a steel boat because steel boats do not rely as heavily on their interior components for their strength and because it is comparatively easy to weld a structurally robust tab almost anywhere it would be desired.
> (There are similar techniques employed in 'stitch and glue' construction, but it is harder to get a fair hull if too many liberties are taken with the major interior components, and it is less prudent to screw fasten the bulkheads and flats into place, since they conventionally serve as a part of the boat's structural.
> 
> Cons:
> 	Pound for pound, steel is one of the least efficient materials when viewed from a strength to weight standpoint. And in and of itself, adding hull and deck weight does nothing good for a boat.
> (I make this statement predicated solely from the standpoint of traditional yacht engineering principles, but I also know that there are people who will find this counterintuitive and others who will disagree with this entirely. I tend to believe in tried and true structural science, but I also know that there are folks, who are skeptical about science in any form. If you are one of those, there will be no practical manner to have a meaningful discussion on this.
> 
> I also know that there are a lot of reasons that this may seem counterintuitive. For example if you pick up a piece of structural steel, it looks and feels nearly indestructible. Pick up a similar thickness piece of wood or fiberglass, there is not that same tactile sense of pure strength.
> 
> But steel is a very dense material. If we had equal volume blocks of steel, fiberglass, and a fir/cedar/ fiberglass composite, the steel would weigh four times as much as the fiberglass and approximately 17 times the weight of the wood/fiberglass composite. So if were comparing equal weight hull samples, a 5/16" thick steel plate would weigh as much as 1.25" thick fiberglass, and nearly 5 ½" thick wood/fiberglass composite. And if you believe the structural science, comparing panels of the same weight fiberglass will have over 4 ½ times the bending strength and over 6 ½ times the stiffness of the same weight steel hull. The wood/fiberglass composite will have over 11 times the bending strength and over 200 times the stiffness of the same weight steel hull.
> 
> But of course, normally people do not build wooden or fiberglass hulls this thick on the size boat that might be plated with 5/16" steel. Which comes to the another reason why this seems counterintuitive. There is a tendency to compare production fiberglass boats to one off or limited production steel boats. For the most part, the vast majority of production boats are designed to be affordable coastal cruisers and with that as their mission they care comparatively lightly constructed.
> 
> Often in these discussions we visualize a purpose constructed steel distance cruiser and compare it in our minds to some production coastal cruiser, and so it is easy to visualize steel as stronger. But if the mental comparison was between a composite hull of an equal weight to the steel, and think about the relative thicknesses of these materials, the intuitive strength advantage of steel would seem less obvious.
> 
> And I must admit that this is not all that cut and dry. While there may be strength differences between the various steel types, and the strength of a steel boat may be compromised by bad welding, the general strength of a steel boat, is less variable than the potential mix of structural capabilities, which can be found in glass composite or wooden construction.
> 
> Think for a moment of the strength differences between chopped glass set in a highly catalyzed polyester resin vs. a vacuum bagged Kevlar set in carefully calibrated vinylester resin. Or more dramatically, visualize a juniper edge-nailed, frameless, hull versus a cold molded cedar/fir laminate hull sheathed with Kevlar outer skins.
> 
> So to be fair and accurate it is probably more appropriate to say, that pound for pound glass composite or wooden construction can be stronger than steel. But to do so requires the proper choices of glass or wood composite construction and frankly more sophisticated engineering. If one of the goals is to minimize design costs, then Brent is right that up to a point, steel Origami Construction can reduce design time and still result in large safety margins.)
> 
> 	Speed of getting out there:
> There has been a lot of conversation suggesting that building an origami hull might be the fastest way to build a hull and deck. It may be, although ignoring the properties of the materials, I would suggest that stitch and glue plywood may be an equally quick way to build hull and deck.
> 
> But the hull and deck represents a pretty small portion of the labor (time) and material costs to build a boat. My recollection is that a hull and deck is roughly 20-25% of the overall cost of the finished boat. In fairness, that percentage will vary from material to material, boat design to boat design, level of fit and finish, and derives from a time that long ago when my Mom was having boats built in Asia and importing them to the States, and so should not be seen as gospel. But the point remains that even saving a 1/3 or more on the hull and deck is a pretty small savings overall, and that for any given owner-builder, the level of fit-out, fit and finish would be pretty much the same no matter what the boat is built of.
> 
> And if the goal is to build your own and get out there quickly, the fastest and cheapest answer may be to buy a really tired, f.g. boat, with a suitable cruising design (i.e. not some coastal cruiser, or cruiser racer) gut it and build it back using the same level of fit and finish that you planned to use on the steel boat, but save the time building and coating the hull. Of course, that only works if you do not have your mind set on owning a steel boat.
> 
> 	Noise:
> I have always been amazed at how noisy steel boats are. As Brent points out, you can use sprayed in foam, which is great stuff in terms of sound-deading and thermal insulation. But it's just another step and another cost. And while the foam can be removed, it does make it harder to access the hull should you need to. Also many if not most foams will support fire. So will wood and fiberglass, but it somewhat reduces the theoretical non-combustible advantage of steel.
> 
> 	Electrolysis:
> In my life I have seen a steel hull come out of the water with the bottom peppered with small pin holes due to stray current and bad wiring. I have heard numerous stories of serious electrolysis problems on steel boats when I worked in boat yards. Electrolysis can happen to any boat with metal parts in the water, but it becomes a critical concern with a steel hull, especially in high salinity, warm water, or crowded harbors.
> 
> 	Resale:
> Whatever else you can say about steel, at least in the States there is a prejudice against steel as a boat building material. And that suppresses the resale value and number of willing buyers of a steel boat perhaps more than it should, at least relative to more widely accepted materials like fiberglass.
> 
> 	Corrosion:
> All boat building materials deteriorate eventually. Brent makes a case that properly built and properly maintained, steel boats should require a minimum of low skilled maintenance. It could be argued that it's not much more labor intensive to paint an entire steel hull than it is to wax the topsides of a fiberglass boat. I actually buy that argument. But unlike fiberglass, if you do not recoat bare steel, corrosion will start and spread quickly. Whether it ever reaches a level of corrosion that undermines the structural capabilities of the boat depends on the nature of the design, build and maintenance.
> 
> Assuming for the moment that corrosion may not be a problem on the specific boats that Brent built, but in the context of a general discussion of the pros and cons of steel boats, the issue corrosion is a serious one, one that would discourage many potential boat buyers. It ultimately was one of the deal killers when I considered a steel hull.


 Steel weighs around 495 pounds per cubic ft, Douglas fir around 35 lbs per cubic foot
Steel has a tensile and compression strength of 60,000 PSI , fir around 1500.
The 3/16th steel plate I use on my boats has 2.5 times the weight of 1 inch fir and 7.5 times the tensile strength, giving steel a tensile and compression strength to weight ratio three times that of douglas fir. That is why big ships are no longer made of wood . However, where steel really comes out ahead is toughness, the ability absorb impacts by stretching , instead of shattering on the first impact. That is why a 30 calibre bullet which can go thru 23 inches of douglas fir , can barely make it thru 3/8th inch mild steel plate. That is a test of impact resistance. That is why you can tie a knot in steel wire or steel rod without breaking it. Doesn't work so well with wood or fibreglass.That is what would have saved the Sleavins, had they been in a steel boat. That was a single hit impact, as was the impact on the ******.
Steel simply stretches and deforms, without leaking, where other materials would shatter.

Water flowing across a chine, does so at a very shallow angle. We have had this debate on the 6 inch diameter of the leading edge of my single keel. Some thought it a bit too blunt. However, with the slope it has, if you draw a horizontal line thru it, the cross section ,at that angle , is an ellipse, roughly the same radius as a three inch pipe run vertical, 90 degrees to the water flow. As water across a chine runs at a very shallow angle to the chine, it doesn't take much of a radius to eliminate any resulting turbulence there .
Several of my boats have put in radiused chines, including my own, only an extra weeks work ,max. It's not a lot of extra work ,far less than building a radiused chine boat using traditional methods. For one thing, you only have 14 feet per side of radius to put in on a 36, far less than a full length radius on traditionally built boats. I have suggested that owners finish the rest of the steel work first, then decide if they consider it worth the effort. Few have . Most want to get out sailing.
Waterline yachts, back in the 80s ,was using my plating strategies, with a single plate from bow to stern on the topsides continuing down from sheer to centreline in the bow and stern, as a singe plate, eliminating all seams, and distortion at these points. They looked a lot better, eliminating the flat parts above the radius parts. Don't know why they went back to full length radius . That certainly didn't look as good , and was clearly a lot more cutting ,fitting and welding, and potential distortion.
When you have corrosion problems on a steel boat you are doing something wrong. Usually it is steel which was not clean enough in the first place or paint too thin. 
My steel came wheel abraded ( shot blasted) and primed with cold galvanizing primer right from the supplier. It had zero mill scale. After finishing the steel work, I washed the primer, first with TSP to get rid of any grease, then with vinegar to get rid of any oxide on the zinc, then with water. I let it dry for an hour or so in the hot of August sun, then gave her three coats of epoxy tar inside, and five outside, followed by marine enamel outside. That was 29 years ago. a couple of years ago I ground some of the few rust spots in the bilge, and gave her a couple of more coats of epoxy. Outside, I give her decks a coat of enamel every couple of years and her hull a coat of enamel every few years. After 29 years of mostly full time cruising, the steel is 99% as good as the day I built her.
Unlike boats made of other materials, cleats don't work lose, and welded down deck gear and fittings never leak. In any kind of weather , she is as dry inside as a boat can be.
When you build a fibreglass or wooden hull and deck, you still have to go out and acquire cleats , mooring bitts , chain plates, hatches , hatch hinges, lifelines, bow roller, install engine mounts, tankage, anchor winch , heater, self steering, inside steering, etc., etc. , all of which is done, at a much lower cost, when you have finished all the metal work on a steel boat, making finished steel work a much bigger part of the total cost of the boat , compared to boat building in other materials


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Oh yeah, I guess I should warn you:
> This is not a simple Brent style one seam cut origami hull. This is "advanced origami" with three longitudinal cuts per side and two vertical cuts per side. The longl. cuts are quite a bit longer than Brent's. They go to just short of the ends. I just can't get enough control of the shape with one cut. It's more welding work but more control. I am determined not to let the method dictate the shape. But I have it "smashed out", i.e. unfolded so it can all be cut from one flat sheet per side. It looks really strange flattened out.
> 
> I could post the smashed version but I'm not sure I want to give away all my treasure yet. I'd hate to have someone run off and start cutting while we are still playng with the basic design.


Nice shape! Looks a bit tippy, but when I dropped the seat 3 1/2 inches in mine, the stability increased greatly. You only need it high enough to kepo your butt out of the bilge water.


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## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> Oh yeah, I guess I should warn you:
> This is not a simple Brent style one seam cut origami hull. This is "advanced origami" with three longitudinal cuts per side and two vertical cuts per side. The longl. cuts are quite a bit longer than Brent's. They go to just short of the ends. I just can't get enough control of the shape with one cut. It's more welding work but more control. I am determined not to let the method dictate the shape.


I had seen that you were using more gores in the sheets. I see the decision to add a bit more welding as one of those client driven parameters. You could build a flat bottom dory style hull with less cutting and welding, but given the client's need for an elegant design, I doubt that the client would be happy. My sense is that there just in not all that much welding time on a boat like this so doubling it is not the end of the world.

In my mind, the cutting and welding is probably but a couple days extra, but an elegant boat is forever.



bobperry said:


> But I have it "smashed out", i.e. unfolded so it can all be cut from one flat sheet per side. It looks really strange flattened out.
> 
> I could post the smashed version but I'm not sure I want to give away all my treasure yet. I'd hate to have someone run off and start cutting while we are still playng with the basic design.


I don't see any point in posting the 'smashed version' but I would get a kick out of seeing a lines drawings at some point. After seeing the strange shapes which emerged after spiling planking for a lapstrake boat, I can only imagine what the 'smashed flat' shapes must look like.



bobperry said:


> .Right now I have 4" wide "side decks". They could be 3". I thought 4" looked better but it's more weight.
> 
> I'm not going to post many images until it's all stitched up. No point in defending preliminary design work. I have to let drawings sit and "mature" a bit before I am ready to send them out in public. Sometimes I get up in the morning, look at what I drew the previous afternoon and I think, "Did I really draw that?"


You are probably ahead of me on this but it could look nice (but more labor intensive) if the side decks had a little spring in plan so they were perhaps 4" at the breastplates and tapered amidships down to something narrower. I know that is backward structurally and in terms of weight distribution, but it sure looks more elegant.

I understand entirely about not releasing preliminary drawings before thier time. It why I always had a tack board and a worrying chair. Since I was an amateur, as I wrested with differences in hull forms I used to build used to build small models with each hull form and carry them in my pocket over a period of time, pulling them out and mulling whenever I had an idle moment.

Jeff


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> That is why a 30 calibre bullet which can go thru 23 inches of douglas fir , can barely make it thru 3/8th inch mild steel plate. That is a test of impact resistance. That is why you can tie a knot in steel wire or steel rod without breaking it. Doesn't work so well with wood or fibreglass.That is what would have saved the Sleavins, had they been in a steel boat. That was a single hit impact, as was the impact on the ******.
> Steel simply stretches and deforms, without leaking, where other materials would shatter.
> 
> Several of my boats have put in radiused chines, including my own, only an extra weeks work ,max. It's not a lot of extra work ,far less than building a radiused chine boat using traditional methods. For one thing, you only have 14 feet per side of radius to put in on a 36, far less than a full length radius on traditionally built boats. I have suggested that owners finish the rest of the steel work first, then decide if they consider it worth the effort. Few have . Most want to get out sailing.
> 
> When you have corrosion problems on a steel boat you are doing something wrong. Usually it is steel which was not clean enough in the first place or paint too thin. My steel came wheel abraded ( shot blasted) and primed with cold galvanizing primer right from the supplier. It had zero mill scale. After finishing the steel work, I washed the primer, first with TSP to get rid of any grease, then with vinegar to get rid of any oxide on the zinc, then with water. I let it dry for an hour or so in the hot of August sun, then gave her three coats of epoxy tar inside, and five outside, followed by marine enamel outside. That was 29 years ago. a couple of years ago I ground some of the few rust spots in the bilge, and gave her a couple of more coats of epoxy. Outside, I give her decks a coat of enamel every couple of years and her hull a coat of enamel every few years. After 29 years of mostly full time cruising, the steel is 99% as good as the day I built her.
> Unlike boats made of other materials, cleats don't work lose, and welded down deck gear and fittings never leak. In any kind of weather , she is as dry inside as a boat can be.


Brent, instead of cross-checking the above against your other posts in the BSMP - how about we just focus on the Ballpeen Fifteen? I'm thinking you could get a lot out of being part of it.


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## bobperry

Brent:
Yep, I think it will be a bit tippy but I have rowed shells and wherries and I know tippy. I think there may be more flare to the topsides than it appears in that view.
I have been struggling with the seat height. But considering your experience I'll keep it low. Right now it's 10" high off the bottom of the skiff. What do you think? Too high?

Jeff:
It's odd but when you develop a hull like this you don't really have what you and I call a lines drawing. But I can make one. Give me some time to sort out the actual shape then I'll chop it up into the conventiional views.

I'll think about your side deck suggestion. I'm loathe to make changes that would add weight.

Smackenheimer:
I changed the name to the PERRY PEENER PEAPOD.


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## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Oh yeah, I guess I should warn you:
> This is not a simple Brent style one seam cut origami hull. This is "advanced origami" with three longitudinal cuts per side and two vertical cuts per side. The longl. cuts are quite a bit longer than Brent's. They go to just short of the ends. I just can't get enough control of the shape with one cut. It's more welding work but more control. I am determined not to let the method dictate the shape. But I have it "smashed out", i.e. unfolded so it can all be cut from one flat sheet per side. It looks really strange flattened out.
> 
> I could post the smashed version but I'm not sure I want to give away all my treasure yet. I'd hate to have someone run off and start cutting while we are still playng with the basic design.


I keep picturing it 61' long with a deep bulb keel and cast off racers carbon rig.


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## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Smackenheimer:
> I changed the name to the PERRY PEENER PEAPOD.


How about the Perry Peenpod?


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## SloopJonB

When you have it developed to your satisfaction, please post the flat pattern - I'd find it interesting to see what a shape like that would look like before folding it up.


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## desert rat

After thinking about what a beautiful dinghy others were describing I realized that mine were as sophisticated as a 4x8 john boat made out of two sheets of plywood.
Aluminum angle in a square around the transom, channel up the center to the bow, and more angle down both sides from the bow back to the top corners of the transom. aluminum plates cut and welded in to complete the hull. I am sure that Brent could greatly improve on my simplicity.


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## Jeff_H

Let's see if we can work though some of your points one at a time and come to some kind of agreement:



Brent Swain said:


> Steel weighs around 495 pounds per cubic ft, Douglas fir around 35 lbs per cubic foot. Steel has a tensile and compression strength of 60,000 PSI , fir around 1500
> 
> The 3/16th steel plate I use on my boats has 2.5 times the weight of 1 inch fir and 7.5 times the tensile strength, giving steel a tensile and compression strength to weight ratio three times that of douglas fir. That is why big ships are no longer made of wood .


When engineers talk about the strength or stiffness of a hull skin material, tensile strength and compression strength are only a small part of the equation. From an engineering standpoint, there are a couple formulas that quantify the strength or stiffness of a hull skin material. For bending the formula is Fb (allowable stress in bending) times S (section modulus) and for stiffness it is E (modulus of elasticity) times I (moment of inertia). The formula for 'S' for a rectangular shape like plating is [B (width of the section) times D squared] divided by 6. The formula for 'I' for a rectangular shape like plating is [B (width of the section) times D (depth of the section) cubed] divided by 12. (I will be showing formulas and results below. Please feel free to check my calculations and assumptions)

So, for comparison 3/16" plating weighs 7.73 lbs per square feet. The same weight per square foot fir would be 2.65" thick. But to produce a fir hull skin with optimized performance in bending, sheer, and impact, the hull would be laminated and would ideally have a kevlar/vinylester sheathing material. Allowing for adhesives and the sheathing, fir hull that weighed the same as 3/16" steel plate would be closer to 2 1/4" thick in thickness.

The section modulus for a 1 foot wide piece of 3/16" steel plate is 0.0703125
inches cubed. The section modulus for a 1 foot wide piece of 2 1/4" thick Fir (ignoring the structural properties of the sheathing) is 10.125 inches cubed. The moment of inertia for a one foot wide piece of 3/16" steel plate is 0.0066 inches to the fourth. The moment of inertia for a 1 foot wide piece of 2 1/4" thick Fir (ignoring the structural properties of the sheathing) is 11.3906 inches cubed.

The allowable bending stress for A-65 steel is 39 KSI (KSI means 1,000 lbs per square inch and 39 KSI is a very big number). Fb for douglas fir is only in the 1.35 KSI range. Similarly, the E (modulus of elasticity) for steel is 30,000 KSI, while the E for Douglas fir is only 1,400 KSI. Looking at these Fb and E numbers it is easy to think that steel has to be stronger.

But when you multiply out S x Fb the two materials, the S x Fb for the 3/16" steel plate comes out to 2,742 Lb.in. while the S x Fb for the 2 1/4" thick Fir comes out to 13,669 Lb.in., which means that the same weight Douglas Fir panel is actually 5 times stronger in bending.

Similarly, when you multiply out E x I for the two materials, the E x I for the 3/16" steel plate comes out to 198 K.sq.in., while the E x I for the 2 1/4" thick Fir comes out to 15,947 K. sq.in., which means that the same weight Douglas Fir panel is actually 80 times stiffer.



Brent Swain said:


> However, where steel really comes out ahead is toughness, the ability absorb impacts by stretching , instead of shattering on the first impact. That is why a 30 calibre bullet which can go thru 23 inches of douglas fir , can barely make it thru 3/8th inch mild steel plate. That is a test of impact resistance.


There is no doubt that steel is a tough material. You are also right that 2 1/4" douglas fir, in and of itself, will not do much to stop a bullet or offer much abrasion resistance.

But if for some reason, you really want your boat to stop a bullet, then the vinylester/kevlar sheathing on the fir hull will result in a much greater stopping power than a steel hull, which is why the military has switched almost exclusively to using kevlar for helmets, armor and skid pads on thier vehicles and aircraft, and is the reason that Kevlar/vinylester is considered the safest material for motorcycle helmets.

Kevlar used to be wildly expensive and hard to use, but it has come down in price enormously and between prepregging, and vaccuum bagging is actually a pretty easy material to use in this kind of application.

Now then, if the guiding criteria is being able to abraid against coral or a rock for long periods of time, then steel probably is the right choice. But if the goal is to produce a lighter and stronger boat which can withstand an impact with a shipping container, or other sharp immovable object, and to survive a hard grounding on a rocky shore for a reasonable period of time, then I suggest that the laminated fir with vinylester/kevlar sheathing may be a better way to go.



Brent Swain said:


> Water flowing across a chine, does so at a very shallow angle. As water across a chine runs at a very shallow angle to the chine, it doesn't take much of a radius to eliminate any resulting turbulence there.


That basically agrees with my point on the comparatively flat angle chines seen on some origami designs. Where we may need to agree to disagree is on the statement, _"it doesn't take much of a radius to eliminate any resulting turbulence there." _

If I had to rephrase that to be something that I could agree with, I would say something like, "it is unlikely to eliminate turbulence at the chines without fairing the hull transversely, but turbulance at the chine can be reduced to a point where it is effectively inconsequential on a heavy displacement cruising boat."



Brent Swain said:


> Unlike boats made of other materials, cleats don't work lose, and welded down deck gear and fittings never leak. In any kind of weather , she is as dry inside as a boat can be.


Here is where you and I do not agree. Properly installed hardware on fiberglass or properly built wooden boats does not 'work itself loose'. Its easy to reach that conclusion looking a production coastal cruisers, where there rarely are backing plates, potted fastening holes and lock bolts. And yes those steps require extra labor, but done properly fittings do not loosen up on their own.

On the other hand, I think you are right that no matter how good a job one does bedding fittings on these other materials, sooner or later they will leak and sooner or later they will need rebedding.



Brent Swain said:


> When you build a fibreglass or wooden hull and deck, you still have to go out and acquire cleats, mooring bitts, chain plates, hatches, hatch hinges, lifelines, bow roller, install engine mounts, tankage, anchor winch , heater, self steering, inside steering, etc., etc. , all of which is done, at a much lower cost, when you have finished all the metal work on a steel boat, making finished steel work a much bigger part of the total cost of the boat , compared to boat building in other materials


To me, this one seems just plain bogus. If an owner is considering whether to build a steel boat or a fir/composite boat, there is no reason that owner cannot chose to make his hardware in virtually the same manner on each. If that owner was going to fabricate his cleats, mooring bitts, chain plates, hatches, hatch hinges, lifelines, bow roller, engine mounts, tankage, anchor winches, heaters, self steering, etc from scrap steel or scrap stainless, there is no reason that same owner cannot fabricate everyone of those parts for his fir/composite boat, for virtually the same price.

Respectfully,
Jeff


----------



## SloopJonB

Jeff_H said:


> To me, this one seems just plain bogus. If an owner is considering whether to build a steel boat or a fir/composite boat, there is no reason that owner cannot chose to make his hardware in virtually the same manner on each. If that owner was going to fabricate his cleats, mooring bitts, chain plates, hatches, hatch hinges, lifelines, bow roller, engine mounts, tankage, anchor winches, heaters, self steering, etc from scrap steel or scrap stainless, there is no reason that same owner cannot fabricate everyone of those parts for his fir/composite boat, for virtually the same price.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jeff


Totally - that was (is?) one of Bruce Roberts biggies. He provided sheets of drawings of that stuff for construction by the builder - I remember he offered some designs for making a wheel steering system out of a truck differential.


----------



## bobperry

OK, I'll give you a peak at the preliminary work.
Desert Rat was the inspiration for this. Good thinking Rat.

So:
This is not the boat.
This is almost close.
This is MY INTELLECTUAL property.
But since you have been involved all the way since the dream of this boat started with the Rat's post I will show you.

This is preliminary and obsolete as per my talk with my 3D guy tonight. We will make this perfect. Just give me a few days.

Enjoy.


----------



## bobperry

I show you guys some real stuff and you are silent.

I understand. It is amazing and you can't think of anything to say.

It is the creative process.

Enjoy it. Have fun with it. Just oogle and ahhh with it. That's enough.


----------



## SloopJonB

I've been trying to grasp how that would fold up without having virtually full length chines. I wasn't expecting the darts to be anywhere near that long.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> OK, I'll give you a peak at the preliminary work.
> Desert Rat was the inspiration for this. Good thinking Rat.
> 
> So:
> This is not the boat.
> This is almost close.
> This is MY INTELLECTUAL property.
> But since you have been involved all the way since the dream of this boat started with the Rat's post I will show you.
> 
> This is preliminary and obsolete as per my talk with my 3D guy tonight. We will make this perfect. Just give me a few days.
> 
> Enjoy.


Somebody has been bit by the origami bug.

Why isn't Brent helping out? I don't get it. He's the expert.


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## tommays

My stuff is not near as pretty BUT I do get to make a lot of stuff that never existed


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## bobperry

This is coming along.
Bow shot, stern shot.


----------



## Jeff_H

Bob,

She is really taking shape very nicely. 

Looking at the smashed view, I was surprised that there wasn't more 'broadseaming' on the topsides gore. The smashed image is very small on my monitor so I may be misreading this, but it looks like the two sides of this cut remain in contact with each other for the entire length of the stakes. I wonder whether you need this gore and what shape would emerge if this gore was eliminated or reduced. 

Jeff


----------



## bobperry

The computer needs it Jeff. You may not need it. We now have a rough cardboard model.

I'm not zackly sure what you are saying. Of course the sides of the cut remain in contact. If they didn't there would be a hole in the boat. What am I missing?


----------



## tommays

After the sheets are tacked up The learning curve on not twisting up that many feet of seam is going to be interesting


----------



## bobperry

Tom:
I am talking to Jim Betts in Anacortes about building the skiff. Jim built a 63'er of my design and he is a true artist with alu. We will go over the model in detail and I am confident that when we begin we will have a design that can be built without problems. That's what a good designer does automatically.


I like to keep a good, positive attitude when I start a new project:
When we started the FT10m project in China I was attacked from every angle for trying to do a high tech sport boat in China. We sold 122 FT10m's and just made a fleet sale of 13 more FT7.5m's to the Chinese Navy. They bought 20 7.5's last year. Despite the naysayers the Flying Tiger project has been very profitable for me.


----------



## tommays

Bob

Will you be looking for pretty but exposed welds or a polished inside and out look ?

Would they anodize the hull after its finished as it should not be near as hard to find a tank that size ?


----------



## bobperry

Tom:
What I have in mind is a workboat level of finish. So I think that would mean leaving the welds exposed. This process is new to me so I will be learning what I really want as I go along. Like life.

No anodizing. No nuttin. I live on a beach where there is a combo of sand and rocks depending on the tide level. I need to have a boat that I can drag over the rocks, within reason. The rocks are big, round like pebbles. I have a design for a dolly wheel that will fit on the stern. Just not keen on having the look of the wheel. I'll see.


----------



## tommays

I personally like the exposed look of a great welders work and it also much stronger when you do not go for the one piece look with polishing


----------



## bobperry

Toim:
OK, that sounds good to me. I'll go that route.
Do you think they would weld both sides of the seam?


----------



## tommays

It is really going to be two questions 

1. time as it would be twice as much welding 

2. It really does depend on how well the welder feels he can keep the hulls shape as is the welds do have a lot of ability to bend the sheet


----------



## bobperry

Ok Tom. Then if it is one weld to save dough is the weld on the outside or the inside of the shell?

Many thanks for the help.
I asked Brent some direct questions re; scantlings but I got no answer. Maybe he's not comfy with alu. I can do it without his help. Could have been fun. Hope he'll stay in the loop and chime in from time to time.


----------



## tommays

I would keep it on the outside from my POV on looks 

I would really feel out the welder as SS is my main material and we are going for sanitation as the #1 priority 

Can you get 16' ? material as we have to work around 144" lengths


----------



## bobperry

Tom:
My 3D guy, Jody Culbertson, looked into sheet lengths and he is pretty certain we can get the length. I'll find out from Jim Betts. He does a lot of alu work including work on commercial boats.

Sanitation is not my top priority but I do shower on Mondays.


----------



## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> The computer needs it Jeff. You may not need it. We now have a rough cardboard model.
> 
> I'm not zackly sure what you are saying. Of course the sides of the cut remain in contact. If they didn't there would be a hole in the boat. What am I missing?


Bob,

I must apologize. I am not sure what I was looking at. I had been looking at the first squashed flat plan on my phone and the image was so small that I must not have picked up the actual plate edges. Now that I see the larger version, its a lot clearer what is happening and my question becomes a dumb one.

Jeff


----------



## bobperry

Jeff:
Not sure it was a "dumb question" but you did have me scratching my head.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> The computer needs it Jeff. You may not need it. We now have a rough cardboard model.
> 
> I'm not zackly sure what you are saying. Of course the sides of the cut remain in contact. If they didn't there would be a hole in the boat. What am I missing?


I think he means they remain in contact while still flattened out - it's a slot rather than a gore so to speak.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Tom: What I have in mind is a workboat level of finish.


 Is Brent getting contagious?


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
I live in an area where we have a lot of bare alu work boats. I love work boats. They have integrity. I can go with that look. I prefer that look. It suits my mood.


----------



## SloopJonB

For what you want - a "beach dragger" - you'd be crazy to go any other way.


----------



## bobperry

Looks like I can get up to 20' long sheets 96" wide. Don't need that width.

Betts has the drawings now. We'll see what he says and if sounds god I'll drive up next week and have a chat. He's only a bit over an hour from me.


----------



## blt2ski

A clean aluminum boat does look good. Saw many this morning at my marina, along with some pretty white 24' skinny azzed sailboat......altho it did have a pretty wood transom with an 8hp motor attached..........

Marty


----------



## SloopJonB

I'll have mine engine turned please.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Jon:
> I live in an area where we have a lot of bare alu work boats. I love work boats. They have integrity. I can go with that look. I prefer that look. It suits my mood.


That's exactly the point I have been making all along!

I have only done one multi chine hull, definitely a lot trickier than a single chine. A singe chine hull is far simpler to build and far more forgiving of minor mistakes. Its very easy on a multi chine hull to get chine angles far different than that which you intended, not a problem with a single chine hull. Bob's computer skills should eliminate that possibility, but others could get into difficulty that way. Multi chine hulls are also a lot more needless cutting, fitting and welding, with it is increased distortion potential , especially when you have a lot less of the ends conic.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Ok Tom. Then if it is one weld to save dough is the weld on the outside or the inside of the shell?
> 
> Many thanks for the help.
> I asked Brent some direct questions re; scantlings but I got no answer. Maybe he's not comfy with alu. I can do it without his help. Could have been fun. Hope he'll stay in the loop and chime in from time to time.


I don't sit at my computer full time. I have a life away from it, cruising, etc.
Ill look for your question, when I get the time, on my own time.


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
Right. The builder is already talking about using a "wood plug" inside the skin to keep it fair while welding it.

"That's exactly the point I have been making all along!"

Yes, but while I want this look for the peapod it's not a look I want for my yachts. But I am capable of drawing something that would suit that look, something on the rugged side. It would take the right client. Like me.

"Ill look for your question, when I get the time, on my own time. "
Don't bother Brent. I think I have it far along now that I can fumble my way through the rest of the process with the builder. He has a good handling on scantlings and is looking for inventory now. Thanks anyway.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> This is coming along.
> Bow shot, stern shot.


That twist in the bottom plate at the bow can be extremely hard to control distortion in. The edges want to be longer than the middle in such a shape, just like a clipper bow. Conic ends eliminate that problem.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Brent:
> Yep, I think it will be a bit tippy but I have rowed shells and wherries and I know tippy. I think there may be more flare to the topsides than it appears in that view.
> I have been struggling with the seat height. But considering your experience I'll keep it low. Right now it's 10" high off the bottom of the skiff. What do you think? Too high?
> 
> Jeff:
> It's odd but when you develop a hull like this you don't really have what you and I call a lines drawing. But I can make one. Give me some time to sort out the actual shape then I'll chop it up into the conventiional views.
> 
> I'll think about your side deck suggestion. I'm loathe to make changes that would add weight.
> 
> Smackenheimer:
> I changed the name to the PERRY PEENER PEAPOD.


10 inches is way too high for a seat. No reason for it to be that high.
You can expand the edges of the twisted bow plate by peening the edges with a ball peen hammer on a heavy piece of plate. Using a nibbler for cutting also does it, to some extent.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Brent, instead of cross-checking the above against your other posts in the BSMP - how about we just focus on the Ballpeen Fifteen? I'm thinking you could get a lot out of being part of it.


These questions couldn't be left unanswered.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> I've been trying to grasp how that would fold up without having virtually full length chines. I wasn't expecting the darts to be anywhere near that long.


Nor was I. No need for the chines to be that long.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> If we go with the heavier plate and that's all we can get in 5052, then the hull will be closer to 100 lbs. and I estimate another 35 lbs. for the seats and seat frames, side deck, outrigger for the oars, breast hook and fanny hook. I have not estimated the weight of the backbone yet. But I have already used some ideas to reduce seat and seat framing weight and I did not include those weight savings tricks in my weights here. I was trying to be conservative.
> 
> Then there is the weight of the oars and rowlocks. Me, 225 lbs., Violet 25 lbs., Ruby 50 lbs.. I am looking right now at designing to a dwl load displ of 500 lb..
> 
> I am not figuring on a sailing rig but it could be done. It would probably almost double the cost. I'm talking to Jim Betts about building it and he should have a cost in a few days.
> 
> That hull image is a rough cut,i.e. a first try at working within the confines of the geometric process for the origami method. Changes will certainly come. It can only get better.


Seats, decks, breast hooks, etc. can all be made out of 16 gauge ,very light. Most 16 foot runabouts are entirely made out of 16 gauge.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> These questions couldn't be left unanswered.


Okay - then answer them. You're just doing the same old thing.


----------



## desert rat

Brent
How about 8 gauge and minimal internal bracing?


----------



## Jeff_H

Brent:

Can you weld 16 ga.? Most of those light gauge boats seem to be riveted.


----------



## desert rat

Bob, I am in lust. The bow and the flare on the gunnels. I cant get the hull out of my mind. It is beautiful. I can't imagine anyone not wanting to the point of trading off thier wife for the finished boat.


----------



## tommays

You can weld most anything with the right person and equipment as the new machines have so MANY features to control the arc 

The Bicycle steel i work with has .027 wall on the ends for welding and and is .015 in the middle for light weight

The question becomes is that the best way


----------



## bobperry

Desert:
Me too. The builder wants one too.

I will work out the details with the builder. He is very good. He built WHITE EAGLE, my 63'er and he is a true artist in alu. His concern now is that the ends might "banana up" and he does not want to wreck my lovely sheer.

I have no intention of reducing chine length only to lose control over the shape I want. I may have to step back after we build a boat and rethink some things but for now I like what I have and I'll leave it to a skilled builder to make my idea work. Or not.

No worries Brent. You just go back to cruising, You sound a bit stressed out as usual. Maybe more cruising will help. Maybe a nice long walk on the beach.


----------



## bfloyd4445

CaptainQuiet said:


> Thanks for all the feedback.
> I'm not sure we're in the market for a newly built vessel - our budget is more aligned with 10- 20 year old boats.
> I'm a novice welder and would like to find something that needs major TLC and new systems so I could put it together before heading out.
> Weight and therefore slowness is something I thought might be an issue. We are shopping for something in the 40 to 45 foot range, so maybe the advice PCP gives about aluminium deserves a closer look - where could we find info about the French boats? I always thought aluminum was too expensive.
> Center cockpit and aft cabin are also something that appeals to us. Cutter or Ketch both could work. The design of the Stevens 47 or the 44 Kelley Peterson, or even Ted Brewer's Whitby 42 are ones that I've liked. Any of those in steel out there?
> Thanks again for all the feedback.


aluminum has its problems and is harder to repair than steel. There is always scrap steel laying around but not often marine grade aluminum. Aluminum is only one point less noble than zinc so electrolysis can be a real issue. I like glass steel over Al for a saltwater boat


----------



## bobperry

My new boat will be alu.
Read it and weep.


----------



## AlaskaMC

bfloyd4445 said:


> aluminum has its problems and is harder to repair than steel. There is always scrap steel laying around but not often marine grade aluminum. Aluminum is only one point less noble than zinc so electrolysis can be a real issue. I like glass steel over Al for a saltwater boat


I better go warn all those Alaskan commercial and sport fishing boats that they are in grave danger! If you eliminate FG recreational boats, aluminum is by far the most common material for midsize boats up here in the most extreme conditions. Lots of large steel ships of course, but aluminum is EVERYWHERE.


----------



## bobperry

Floyd needs a trip to Bristol Bay.


----------



## AlaskaMC

Love the gill netter!


----------



## SloopJonB

You should contact a toymaker to produce bathtub versions of your cartoon boats.

I'd buy a few for my granddaughter. (At least that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.)


----------



## bobperry

I drew the LADY ALISON for my wife's best friend's daughter Alison. Her Dad, Doug is a Bristol Bay fisherman with an all alu fish killing machine. It's not really the colors I made it. It's bare alu. But my deal is when I take on a commission for a cartoon that you get the colors I choose. I have known Alison since she was two days old and so it was another labor of love for me.


----------



## bfloyd4445

AlaskaMC said:


> I better go warn all those Alaskan commercial and sport fishing boats that they are in grave danger! If you eliminate FG recreational boats, aluminum is by far the most common material for midsize boats up here in the most extreme conditions. Lots of large steel ships of course, but aluminum is EVERYWHERE.


I am aware of that and currently own two al boats but I can't help but feel steel may be better in most ways and definitely is for larger boats. I also see a few ancient old woody's still out there working. I've hit stuff with wood fiberglass and aluminum and found the al less likely to be holed but much harder and expensive to repair. Glass and wood will flex nicely takeing up much of the impact while aluminum just crushes. 
The bottom line is the boat design and quality of manufacture that is most important. If that wasn't so vessels like the wetsnail 32 would not have achieved such a world wide reputation for getting there crew home while other similar vessel have the opposite reputaqtion


----------



## bobperry

A lot of yachts are built in alu. Very few are built in steel. Wonder why? I don't.

Steel is a hard material to work with if you are after yacht quality aesthetic results. Most sailors do not want a boat that looks like it was built by a farmer regardless of how strong it is. There have been yards in Europe who have built beautiful steel boats so it can be done but it sure as hell is not being done over here now. Aluminum is much easier to work with and can produce some very handsome yachts.


----------



## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> A lot of yachts are built in alu. Very few are built in steel. Wonder why? I don't.
> 
> Steel is a hard material to work with if you are after yacht quality aesthetic results. Most sailors do not want a boat that looks like it was built by a farmer regardless of how strong it is. There have been yards in Europe who have built beautiful steel boats so it can be done but it sure as hell is not being done over here now. Aluminum is much easier to work with and can produce some very handsome yachts.


definitely has its drawbacks just like all the others


----------



## bobperry

"definitely has its drawbacks just like all the others "
You see what you want to see.


----------



## Capt Len

Back when I built kayaks I was a tad more nimble and could stand in my 16 footer My dingy on davits for years has been a 9ft Minto Let me tell you it got tippery aand tippary. Now I have a 10 ft davidson and I'm becoming concerned with its stability. Dog paddling while looking at my really pretty tender drifting away leaves me cold.As an old fart,I like the concept of big beam wrapped around a pramish bow. Just sayin.


----------



## bfloyd4445

Capt Len said:


> Back when I built kayaks I was a tad more nimble and could stand in my 16 footer My dingy on davits for years has been a 9ft Minto Let me tell you it got tippery aand tippary. Now I have a 10 ft davidson and I'm becoming concerned with its stability. Dog paddling while looking at my really pretty tender drifting away leaves me cold.As an old fart,I like the concept of big beam wrapped around a pramish bow. Just sayin.


I relate to that


----------



## Brent Swain

Capt Len said:


> Back when I built kayaks I was a tad more nimble and could stand in my 16 footer My dingy on davits for years has been a 9ft Minto Let me tell you it got tippery aand tippary. Now I have a 10 ft davidson and I'm becoming concerned with its stability. Dog paddling while looking at my really pretty tender drifting away leaves me cold.As an old fart,I like the concept of big beam wrapped around a pramish bow. Just sayin.


Whether tippy dinghy or kayak , tying a tight midship line to the dock or boat, lets you put all the weight you want to on that side with no chance of capsizing ,making it much easier and safer to get in and out. If the dock has the same freeboard as your dingy or kayak, that makes it impossible to tip either way.


----------



## Brent Swain

bfloyd4445 said:


> I am aware of that and currently own two al boats but I can't help but feel steel may be better in most ways and definitely is for larger boats. I also see a few ancient old woody's still out there working. I've hit stuff with wood fiberglass and aluminum and found the al less likely to be holed but much harder and expensive to repair. Glass and wood will flex nicely takeing up much of the impact while aluminum just crushes.
> The bottom line is the boat design and quality of manufacture that is most important. If that wasn't so vessels like the wetsnail 32 would not have achieved such a world wide reputation for getting there crew home while other similar vessel have the opposite reputaqtion


Steel is even harder to hole and much easier to repair, especially a long way from civilization. I can do it with a 100 amp alternator run off my engine.

This reminds me of a cartoon a fisherman told me about , a picture of a guy in a dinghy in a Honolulu shirt asking a native on the beach in a grass skirt, with a spear in his hand, and a bone thru his nose:
"Any body here weldum aluminum?"


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Okay - then answer them. You're just doing the same old thing.


Exactly , answering questions accurately ,with experience based answers, something you seem to have a problem with, having no such experience of your own. Perhaps it is the accuracy of my answers which bothers you.
For that, I'm flattered!


----------



## Brent Swain

desert rat said:


> Brent
> How about 8 gauge and minimal internal bracing?


Way to heavy for a dinghy. As with most 16 gauge aluminium runabouts , most internal bracing is unnecessary. The seats and floatation compartments should be all the bracing you need.


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> Brent:
> 
> Can you weld 16 ga.? Most of those light gauge boats seem to be riveted.


A skilled guy with a tig can. Too thin for mig. Rivets would be a good way to put seats and floatation compartments in.


----------



## bobperry

I'd like to stay away from rivets if I can. They don't look good to me and I can't see them fitting the look I am after in my peen pod. I am not pretending this is a boat for anyone but me, although we have four "orders" so far including my own. No price yet so you know how firm those orders are.

I really wanted a PT 11 Russell Brown boat. But they are works of art, like fine furniture. And a wee bit short on LOA for my tall frame. My boat will be such that I can chuck a couple crab pots in it without worrying about scuffing it up.


----------



## Brent Swain

Take a thin piece of metal and twist it. The edges want to be longer than the middle. The middle buckles. When the weld shrinks the edges, it makes things worse. Topside plates , having a longitudinal curve in them, and minimum twist ,benefit from this shrinkage , resulting in a slight compound curve. On my 36 footers ,after final welding you can see about 1 1/4 inch of curve between the sheer and the chine from this effect.
With twisted plates, common on the bow of many hard chine designs ( like Colvins), the distortion of these plates can be difficult to deal with in heavier plate . Far more so in thinner plate. No, a wooden mold wont stop it. Best to minimize the twist in the design stage. Bringing the centreline up closer to the seam is one way to do it.
For seats and floatation, my current dingy uses longitudinal floatation chambers. This not only stiffens things up a lot , but lets me put removable seats anywhere I want them, balancing any other cargo or passengers I may have aboard. It is the best arrangement I have seen in over 40 years of cruising. For aluminium, it takes a bit more fitting , but adds a lot of stiffness, and can be done in 16 gauge, riveted to the top sides, and mostly left open on the bottom, with foam under .
On my aluminium dinghy, I had a midships seat, 16 gauge , 2-90 degree bends a foot apart on top, and 2-90s with 1 inch flanges on the bottom with foam inside, resting on a couple of tabs on the top sides. There is a photo of it on the origamiboats site. 
It was nowhere as handy as the longitudinal floatation chambers, with the removable seats.

A man without a project is a man without a life. 

This post is aimed at others seeking such info, not at people like Bob, who criticise me for not responding, then criticize me for doing so, when I do .


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> I'd like to stay away from rivets if I can. They don't look good to me and I can't see them fitting the look I am after in my peen pod. I am not pretending this is a boat for anyone but me, although we have four "orders" so far including my own. No price yet so you know how firm those orders are.
> 
> I really wanted a PT 11 Russell Brown boat. But they are works of art, like fine furniture. And a wee bit short on LOA for my tall frame. My boat will be such that I can chuck a couple crab pots in it without worrying about scuffing it up.


You will be amazed at how little maintenance it will have. Nothing to do to it but use it.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Desert:
> 
> No worries Brent. You just go back to cruising, You sound a bit stressed out as usual. Maybe more cruising will help. Maybe a nice long walk on the beach.


Another childish comment from Bob? Such gratitude!


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
Chill.
Lighten up.
For someone who cruises "full time" you sure seem way too up tight.

I didn't follow all your explanation of the welding and the twist but I suspect without hands on I would not. I trust that you are correct on this. I'll just have to learn by myself. Then stand back and say, "Oh yeah, now I know what Brent was saying."

We have considered longitudinal flotation tanks as part of our amidships seat arrangement. This would give us some latitude in moving the seat for different loads. For instance, I was with the lovely Violet today and I found out she now weighs a whopping 28 lbs. not the 25 lbs. I used in my weight estimate. And she will be growing. Dad is 6'5" and Mom is 5'10".

But in terms of scantlings Brent as you must well know, it often comes down to:
What can I get?
What sheet size is that?
What alloy is that?
When can I get it?
What does it cost?

In my case the cost is not so important due to the small size of the project (not the small size of my wallet). For instance: 5086 would cost me $1 per sq. ft. 5052. For my little project this amounts to about $100. I can handle that. But these little overages can add up so ion the end you stand there looking at an $11,000 dink.

Brent, I don't care what you do. This project will waltz on by you effortlessly. You can play with it too and have some fun. Or you can continue to be irritated, defensive, annoyed and way too stressed out for someone who professes the "perfect life".


----------



## Brent Swain

Opposing hippocracy and lies doesn't make me any less happy. In fact I enjoy it, like shooting ducks of a fence. You guys sure make it easy.I'd be less happy if I just let them go unchallenged, allowing others to suffer the consequences of such disinformation.
5052 would work fine for your project, and being slightly softer, may reduce distortion problems.
My 7 ft 6 inch aluminium dinghy cost me $65 for the materials, in a scrapyard.


----------



## bobperry

":Opposing hippocracy and lies doesn't make me any less happy. "

Ouch!
You sound like one very uptight and confused guy.

I tried to bring this thread back to where we could all have some fun with a metal boat. But you want to infect it with your own personal problems. That is dissapointing.


----------



## desert rat

Bob
A thought for your aluminum welder, perhaps before or after bending use a rosebud
to stress relieve the aluminum? I am no master welder just a wierd thinker.


----------



## bobperry

Rat:
A "rosebud"?
I'm just a guy with a computer and an imagination. In have no idea what a "rosebud" is.

If I knew, I sure as hell would not know what to do with it.
My sister's doll was called "Rosebud".
But that was a year or two ago.

My builder, Jim, Betts, you can google him. is a master with alu hulls. He has "the eye".

I'll meet with him next week and see what he has in mind. He wants a boat so now he is emotionally connected to the project. That good.


----------



## desert rat

A rosebud is like a small shower nozzel. It is for oxy acetiline and produces an ungodly 
amount of heat, like unto the fires of hell.


----------



## bobperry

Oh,,,good,,,I know the fires of hell.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Exactly , answering questions accurately ,with experience based answers, something you seem to have a problem with, having no such experience of your own.


Cool. So when does that start?


----------



## Jeff_H

I think that Brent is raising a very valid point in his comments about distortion of the plates. From my own experiences with welding I am very aware that distortion can be a serious problem especially for the inexperienced welder. From my limited experience I found steel reasonably forgiving. Other metals not so much....In my case about the time that I thought I was a pretty good welder I decided to weld a small SS fitting. A friend let me use his shop during lunch. After carefully shaping the parts, I spent an hour welding them together ending up with a useless pretzel. I made the parts again and went back to my friend who 10-15 min later had made a flawless weldment that just needed to be polished out. 

In this case, the good news is that Bob is using a welder who understands aluminum. But it highlights the issue of amateur construction. An amateur with an aptitude for welding might be able to weld up a steel boat with reasonably thick plating, but I seriously think it is far less likely that an amateur can weld up an aluminum boat without a lot more practice and experience than would be easy to acquire as a dilettante. 

Jeff


----------



## Faster

Jeff_H said:


> I think that Brent is raising a very valid point in his comments about distortion of the plates. From my own experiences with welding I am very aware that distortion can be a serious problem especially for the inexperienced welder. From my limited experience I found steel reasonably forgiving. Other metals not so much....In my case about the time that I thought I was a pretty good welder I decided to weld a small SS fitting. A friend let me use his shop during lunch. After carefully shaping the parts, I spent an hour welding them together ending up with a useless pretzel. I made the parts again and went back to my friend who 10-15 min later had made a flawless weldment that just needed to be polished out.
> 
> In this case, the good news is that Bob is using a welder who understands aluminum. But it highlights the issue of amateur construction. An amateur with an aptitude for welding might be able to weld up a steel boat with reasonably thick plating, but I seriously think it is far less likely that an amateur can weld up an aluminum boat without a lot more practice and experience than would be easy to acquire as a dilettante.
> 
> Jeff


All true, Jeff. But Bob may have pictures somewhere of an aluminum version of the Norseman 447 that was impeccably homebuilt by someone that, AFAIK did not start out as a professional. At a distance one could not tell it wasn't a standard Norseman.. even down to the recessed ports (think how much extra work that must have been...)

Granted on that project you'd be working with heavier material than this beach boat...

Bob, this is a fun project.. and it sounds like you may already have a mini production run!


----------



## bobperry

Exactly Jeff.
I have no concerns about the build Betts has built a lot of alu boats. He voiced his concerns so I know he is aware of the difficulties involved and I think he will devise a way to deal with them. I can't see me standing there asking him to "Let me try". I have never welded anything and I choose not to start now. Maybe I'll take my guitar and sit and playt while Jim welds. I can sing wqelding songs. That's it.

"I've been working on the railroad,,,,,,,,,,,,,"


----------



## bobperry

Faster:
That was an unsual case. The builder of the alu N447 first built a small boat. I think it was 25' LOA. He did this to try his hand. But he was a farmer and very experienced wih welding. He was a very successful farmer and he once told me that the only way you could make money as a farnmer was to do everything yourself. He was very skilled in a wide range of disciplines.


----------



## kimbottles

Jeff_H said:


> I think that Brent is raising a very valid point in his comments about distortion of the plates. From my own experiences with welding I am very aware that distortion can be a serious problem especially for the inexperienced welder. From my limited experience I found steel reasonably forgiving. Other metals not so much....In my case about the time that I thought I was a pretty good welder I decided to weld a small SS fitting. A friend let me use his shop during lunch. After carefully shaping the parts, I spent an hour welding them together ending up with a useless pretzel. I made the parts again and went back to my friend who 10-15 min later had made a flawless weldment that just needed to be polished out.
> 
> In this case, the good news is that Bob is using a welder who understands aluminum. But it highlights the issue of amateur construction. An amateur with an aptitude for welding might be able to weld up a steel boat with reasonably thick plating, but I seriously think it is far less likely that an amateur can weld up an aluminum boat without a lot more practice and experience than would be easy to acquire as a dilettante.
> 
> Jeff


The engineers who detailed the steel fin for my Perry designed keel were very worried about welding distortion. Fortunately we had the fin fabricated at Pacific Fishermen and Dave the welder who did the work was a master craftsman with 46 years experience.

It came out PERFECT.

If you want it done with no worry go straight to the pros. Jim Betts is a pro.


----------



## bobperry

I must say that I have been quite obsessed with this project since the Rat suggested an alu whaleboat. I now have five interested buyers. Just have to have one for myself first that I can show and prove how good it is.

Looking at just under 120 lbs. since we added the alu trim pieces. That could change as the scantlings may change after I talk with the builder.

Jody Culbertson is the man doing the hard work here. He does all my 3D work and he's as good as it gets. He knows geometry. He knows computers. He is a sailor. He did all the 3-D modelling and pattern program work for the 62'er at PSC.

Not sure how we will hadle the rowlocks yet (thats what I call them). Jody found some really Gucci oarlocks at a really Gucci price. I was hoping for more of a Popeye look. But Jody may be right. We may end up with the Gucci ones.

But these images show my rowlock brackets designed to gtake a variety of tholepin locations for the simple reason that I was not sure where they would be placed. Jody, smart ass, came up with this classic 7-11 rule for placing them relative to the seat. It sounds good to me. For now that detail is floating.

There is no other boat like this one. It's a work boat designed to satisfy the discerning rower who wants a sea worthy pulling boat.

I think I'll name mine POPEYE.


----------



## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> Oh,,,good,,,I know the fires of hell.


your married then


----------



## bobperry

Floyd.
Yes, how did you know?


----------



## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> Floyd.
> Yes, how did you know?


fires of hell dead giveaway.


----------



## bobperry

Floyd:
My fires of hell have nothing to do with my wonderful wife. She is a saint.


----------



## blt2ski

I see you posted this at SA! LOL

Any way, some little 24' white boat with a wood transom walked away from me in light winds yesterday. When they picked up, I dang near caught her, then hit a hole and light winds. dang currents......an hour later I finished after being with in 1-200 yds of finish line.........how does that song go B-I-N-G-O.............cute little small azzed boat, great in light winds...........

Marty


----------



## bobperry

Marty:
Many thanks for that. BINGO was designed for light air.


----------



## blt2ski

She has been a pita from my standpoint with the light winds for foulweather bluff we've had the last few years. As have the t-birds and a few others. Get winds above 10-15, I leave them behind. My 6500 lb wt seems to help here. I have the SA, but boat was built for 10-15 in Europe. i guess I need the lake rig. Which would be 5' taller! I still like my little boat!

I think I have driven by betts in Anacortes on my way to a place next door, along with MSC, and a rigger a few blocks north. There should be a marina repair or two near there two that I have been too.

Marty


----------



## tommays

I like the look with the deck sections and keel


----------



## Bob142

Jeff did an amazing job of sorting out the pros and cons of this thread…I’d like to make an attempt to sort out the thread drift part…Sort the philosophy from the school yard stuff…I see this forum composed of three groups… the 7 figure people don’t seem to be present so that leaves the 6 figure people, the 4 and 5 figure people and probably the largest group would be the dreamers who are silently lurking and trying to learn what they can before jumping in to sailing and owning…
There is a lot of comment and advice given about the high cost of sailing and a lot of fear spreading about the dangers…there are a few voices with practical help…
I don’t see Brent as a ( Eco-warrior ) save the planet type…He is well aware that the planet looks after itself …it covered the Egyptians with sand and the Mayans and Incas with jungle…What he is doing is telling the dreamers that it is possible to enjoy the world while they can and to cause the least possible damage …
He says and has proven it by living it that a lot of money isn’t needed to become a sailor but that you have to strike a balance between Form and Function with most of the weight on the Function … If your priority is Form you become a ( Marina Queen) (his term ) and yes it is expensive…His main objective seems to be to offer a practical alternative to the dreamers and not to convince the established sailors that his is the right way or the only way…From his experience he advises that there are dangers and that some of them can be minimized …one way is a steel boat… that if you go up on a reef or lee shore, and none of us are immune to this, a wood boat or a Tupperware one will last less then an hour…He doesn’t say that his boats are better but that the frameless method gives advantages…similar to the strength that an eggshell has…He sells his plans cheap and lives simply…
I have a lot of respect for Bob… He fills a need … there are a lot of people that wouldn’t be sailing if he didn’t make pretty boats…and I personally enjoy looking at any form of art work…I like that he isn’t stuck in the Form mode… he changes and adapts…this latest project the emphasis is on Function, the ability to be drug over the rocks and the weight factor…He is balancing this with the Form it is better if it looks good and he is using the origami method…

That’s the best that I got…


----------



## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> Floyd:
> My fires of hell have nothing to do with my wonderful wife. She is a saint.


chuckle....Good for you, then she is a bit different than mine.


----------



## Brent Swain

desert rat said:


> Bob
> A thought for your aluminum welder, perhaps before or after bending use a rosebud
> to stress relieve the aluminum? I am no master welder just a wierd thinker.


I'd keep the heat away from aluminium . Too unpredictable . With steel it can be used , carefully.


----------



## bfloyd4445

Brent Swain said:


> I'd keep the heat away from aluminium . Too unpredictable . With steel it can be used , carefully.


yep, aluminum once annealed gets pretty soft steel is much better in this respect


----------



## bobperry

Heat? That's why I will go with Betts for the build. He's built a lot of alu race boats. He is truly a sculpter with alu. Take a look at the bowsprit on WILD HORSES if you ever get close.
We also have another alu work boat builder now interested in a "license". I was trying to do this for fun but damn it someone is going to turn it into biddness. I smell royalties.


----------



## desert rat

Far out, I see Peapods everywhere! Almost nothing would make me happier than to see a whaleboat in every slip.
Now all i need to do is to find a fiberglass boat that pretty that I can afford (27-34 ft,).


----------



## bobperry

Boy Desert, you are sure easily entertained.
My kind of guy.


----------



## smackdaddy

Bob142 said:


> Jeff did an amazing job of sorting out the pros and cons of this thread&#8230;I'd like to make an attempt to sort out the thread drift part&#8230;Sort the philosophy from the school yard stuff&#8230;I see this forum composed of three groups&#8230; the 7 figure people don't seem to be present so that leaves the 6 figure people, the 4 and 5 figure people and probably the largest group would be the dreamers who are silently lurking and trying to learn what they can before jumping in to sailing and owning&#8230;
> There is a lot of comment and advice given about the high cost of sailing and a lot of fear spreading about the dangers&#8230;there are a few voices with practical help&#8230;
> I don't see Brent as a ( Eco-warrior ) save the planet type&#8230;He is well aware that the planet looks after itself &#8230;it covered the Egyptians with sand and the Mayans and Incas with jungle&#8230;What he is doing is telling the dreamers that it is possible to enjoy the world while they can and to cause the least possible damage &#8230;
> He says and has proven it by living it that a lot of money isn't needed to become a sailor but that you have to strike a balance between Form and Function with most of the weight on the Function &#8230; If your priority is Form you become a ( Marina Queen) (his term ) and yes it is expensive&#8230;His main objective seems to be to offer a practical alternative to the dreamers and not to convince the established sailors that his is the right way or the only way&#8230;From his experience he advises that there are dangers and that some of them can be minimized &#8230;one way is a steel boat&#8230; that if you go up on a reef or lee shore, and none of us are immune to this, a wood boat or a Tupperware one will last less then an hour&#8230;He doesn't say that his boats are better but that the frameless method gives advantages&#8230;similar to the strength that an eggshell has&#8230;He sells his plans cheap and lives simply&#8230;
> I have a lot of respect for Bob&#8230; He fills a need &#8230; there are a lot of people that wouldn't be sailing if he didn't make pretty boats&#8230;and I personally enjoy looking at any form of art work&#8230;I like that he isn't stuck in the Form mode&#8230; he changes and adapts&#8230;this latest project the emphasis is on Function, the ability to be drug over the rocks and the weight factor&#8230;He is balancing this with the Form it is better if it looks good and he is using the origami method&#8230;
> 
> That's the best that I got&#8230;


Bob - if he said it the way you said it above, there would be absolutely no problem at all.

The problem is - what you _say_ he says, and what he _actually types_ are two _completely_ different things.

That said, if you want to interpret what he types the way you have - that's fine. It's just that most people don't see it the way you do - regardless of the number of figures in their bank account.

I see he liked your clarification, so maybe everything you said is what he _means_ to say, but just doesn't have the communication skills to do so. That would explain a lot of things.


----------



## bobperry

Oh,,,,that Bob.
Nevermind.


----------



## desert rat

As long as there is new information avaliable I am entranced. My father worked 
for Sandia labs for 37 years. One afternoon in about an hour our neighbor explained to me the entire process of epitaxial deposition used in the manufacture of semiconductors I still remember. That little whaleboat has touched a joy that I have not felt in years. For that I can never thank you enough. I should have gone down to the ocean when I was 18. I might have drowned (adrenalin junkie) , but to have that feeling it would be a small price. I have been looking at Valiant, Tyana, Baba, even some steel double enders. I am hooked.


----------



## bobperry

Well Desert, it was your idea. You should like it.


----------



## jabe

Steel sailboats are better for offshore - more displacement.


----------



## SloopJonB

jabe said:


> Steel sailboats are better for offshore - more displacement.


Oh Oh!


----------



## bfloyd4445

smackdaddy said:


> Bob - if he said it the way you said it above, there would be absolutely no problem at all.
> 
> The problem is - what you _say_ he says, and what he _actually types_ are two _completely_ different things.
> 
> That said, if you want to interpret what he types the way you have - that's fine. It's just that most people don't see it the way you do - regardless of the number of figures in their bank account.
> 
> I see he liked your clarification, so maybe everything you said is what he _means_ to say, but just doesn't have the communication skills to do so. That would explain a lot of things.


whew, Bob speaks well for steel but he is forgetting that one could make a car with four inch Armour plate then drive letting others just bounce off but the price paid in energy expended to move all that extra weight is more than most of us wish to bear no matter what our income. Not a matter of what one can afford as what's best for the world and future generations. When I don't fly, boat, I drive a vw Golf TDI, the prius eater, only because I have little desire to squander non renewable resources. The fact is for small craft steel requires just too much energy to move from point a to b. Basic engineering. 
I'm sure you engineering types can grasp the concept<smile>
That said I love steel boats, they are realistically just not cost effective under 50 feet


----------



## Jeff_H

jabe said:


> Steel sailboats are better for offshore - more displacement.


In and of itself simply adding displacement does nothing good for a boat, especially offshore. Weight does not automatically add to stability, weight does not inherently add to motion comfort, it does not inherently increase strength, nor does it automatically add to carrying capacity. Excess weight, especially in the wrong places hurts all of these things, plus it makes a boat harder to handly and hurts performance. But that's a topic for another thread.

Respectfully,
Jeff


----------



## bfloyd4445

Jeff_H said:


> In and of itself simply adding displacement does nothing good for a boat, especially offshore. Weight does not automatically add to stability, weight does not inherently add to motion comfort, it does not inherently increase strength, nor does it automatically add to carrying capacity. Excess weight, especially in the wrong places hurts all of these things, plus it makes a boat harder to handly and hurts performance. But that's a topic for another thread.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jeff


Jrff, one mistake, weigh decreases carrying capacity. A vessel of a given volume will displace x amount of water. any weight added will decrease its carrying capacity or payload. A Tupperware wood AL boat being lighter will have a greater payload than a steel boat of the same size.That's why I stated that under 50 feet steel was more of a liability than asset unless you are a habitual reef banger.
that sai8d I still like steel vessels of any size


----------



## bobperry

Jabe:
Welcome to the debate.
"Steel sailboats are better for offshore - more displacement.

I'd like to know exactly how you figure that.


----------



## Jeff_H

bfloyd4445 said:


> Jrff, one mistake, weigh decreases carrying capacity. A vessel of a given volume will displace x amount of water. any weight added will decrease its carrying capacity or payload. A Tupperware wood AL boat being lighter will have a greater payload than a steel boat of the same size.That's why I stated that under 50 feet steel was more of a liability than asset unless you are a habitual reef banger.
> that sai8d I still like steel vessels of any size


I think that you and I are trying to say roughly the same thing. I was saying it in the negative by pointing out that in and of itself, increasing the displacement of a boat does it automatically add to carrying capacity.

You are pointing out in the positive, a heavier boat does not have greater carrying capacity if that added weight is in the form of a heavy hull and deck structure.

Jeff


----------



## bobperry

"any weight added will decrease its carrying capacity or payload. A Tupperware wood AL boat being lighter will have a greater payload than a steel boat of the same size."

I can't figure out what you are trying to say here. Not sure what displ has to do with "payload" carrying ability. Unless you are talking exclusivley about volume. I consider carrying capacity to be primarily a function of waterplane area and the lbs. per inch immers. This has zero to do with displ. The caveat of course being volume to stow this payload and that can be a problem with lighter displ.


----------



## bobperry

This stock Nordic 40 just completed a single handed circumnavigation.
So much for "plastic marina queens".
And it did it while looking very good. A capable, handsome yacht.
Generalizations are so easy and so innacurate.


----------



## Jaramaz

Jeff_H said:


> In and of itself simply adding displacement does nothing good for a boat, especially offshore. Weight does not automatically add to stability, weight does not inherently add to motion comfort, it does not inherently increase strength, nor does it automatically add to carrying capacity. Excess weight, especially in the wrong places hurts all of these things, plus it makes a boat harder to handly and hurts performance. But that's a topic for another thread.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jeff


Jeff, here you are saying just adding displacement doesn't improve. In the sense that this is not always improves. 
But on the other hand, (mass) moment of inertia is 








or








The mass moment of inertia is a factor in the efforts to change a body (here boat) movement (around an axis). The higher MoI the more energy is required. Thus a boat with higher MoI will not be so easy to excite in movements as rollings etc - and then percieved as more stable (downside is then when the boat actually has been exited, then it take longer time to dampen the movements).

As the MoI is increasing with mass and size, both correlated to displacement, then one would generally expect higher displacement - higher stability (within limits).

Marchaj reasoned along these lines in his book "Seaworthiness -the forgotten factor". However, some of the conclusions in his book seems exaggerated. As said above, increased MoI has its drawbacks.

Comments?

/J


----------



## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> Jabe:
> Welcome to the debate.
> "Steel sailboats are better for offshore - more displacement.
> 
> I'd like to know exactly how you figure that.


you forgot to add" and less payload".


----------



## Jeff_H

Jaramaz said:


> Jeff, here you are saying just adding displacement doesn't improve. In the sense that this is not always improves.
> But on the other hand, (mass) moment of inertia is
> View attachment 15894
> 
> 
> or
> View attachment 15895
> 
> 
> The mass moment of inertia is a factor in the efforts to change a body (here boat) movement (around an axis). The higher MoI the more energy is required. Thus a boat with higher MoI will not be so easy to excite in movements as rollings etc - and then percieved as more stable (downside is then when the boat actually has been exited, then it take longer time to dampen the movements).
> 
> As the MoI is increasing with mass and size, both correlated to displacement, then one would generally expect higher displacement - higher stability (within limits).
> 
> Marchaj reasoned along these lines in his book "Seaworthiness -the forgotten factor". However, some of the conclusions in his book seems exaggerated. As said above, increased MoI has its drawbacks.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> /J


I think this is converging two separate ideas. You are correct that larger roll and pitch moments of inertia will slow roll and pitch acceleration rates. That comes at the price of larger roll and pitch angles. You are also correct that adding mass can add to the boat's roll and pitch moment of inertia. This is where the discussion gets more complex. The roll and pitch moment of inertia results from the collective moments of inertia of each mass based on its mass and that mass's distance (r) to the instantaneous roll and pitch axis.

By and large, since r is squared (or cubed depending on the calculation) it is changes in the distance to the instantaneous roll and pitch axis that has a greater impact on the the roll and pitch moment of inertia rather than the simple weight itself.

In other words, if we looked at two boats of equal mass, one which had all of its mass concentrated near the rotational axis and the other spread out into a bulb at the keel and a heavier mast, obviously the boat with the bulb and heavy mast would accellerate more slowly. In reality, even if we greatly added more weight near the rotational axis of the boat with concentrated weight, the accelleration rate would not be slowed to the point of matching the boat with the disbursed masses.

Going back to my earlier point, from the standpoint of optimizing motion comfort, the main factors are weight and buoyancy distribution and dampening, with overall displacement only playing a comparatively small role.

In terms of stability, "As the MoI is increasing with mass and size, both correlated to displacement, then one would generally expect higher displacement = higher stability."

I respectfully suggest that this is just plain wrong. Its true that if greater mass were added in a manner which did not change the center of gravity, or changed the center of gravity in a manner which is beneficial, such as added to a keel bulb, then adding weight would add stability. 
But if that weight were added in the form of a heavy deck structure or mast, then that weight would decrease stability.

Which is why I said, "In and of itself simply adding displacement does nothing good for a boat, .... Weight does not automatically add to stability, weight does not inherently add to motion comfort.... Excess weight, especially in the wrong places hurts all of these things...."

As to Marchaj's book, "Seaworthiness -the Forgotten Factor", from everything that I know, Marchaj's basic science still remains correct and consistent with what we know today. If there is a shortcoming to the book, it is that much of the research was based on the boats that were available over 30 years ago when it was first written. In those thirty years, there has been a lot more research. And to one degree or another the lessons pioneered by Marchaj and later theorcists have been applied to improve the seaworthiness and motion comfort of the better sea going designs. So while the science is right, and the conclusions are correct for the type forms that existed at the time, some of his conclusions were too broadly applied and did not consider the subsequent design solutions intended to address the concerns that he raises in his book.

Respectfully,
Jeff


----------



## Capt Len

Disregarding factors of material, design. moments etc, advantage of steel over wood is obvious when you consider inside volume.My planking is 2 inches, frames 4 inches, deck beams 6 inches, carlins 6x6 shearclamp 10 by 10 all in a hull that could be better used if the same shape were steel or even FG.This volume wouldn't have to be full of stuff but would make it easier to swing a cat.Since captains aren't allowed to do that any more, I wouldn't change a thing.


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## kimbottles

Capt Len said:


> Disregarding factors of material, design. moments etc, advantage of steel over wood is obvious when you consider inside volume.My planking is 2 inches, frames 4 inches, deck beams 6 inches, carlins 6x6 shearclamp 10 by 10 all in a hull that could be better used if the same shape were steel or even FG.This volume wouldn't have to be full of stuff but would make it easier to swing a cat.Since captains aren't allowed to do that any more, I wouldn't change a thing.


As contrast, the western red cedar strip planking of my new Perry 62'er is one inch thick and the West System sheathing (set in tri-axial 24 ounce Vectorply) adds only a fraction of an inch, so no more than 1-1/16 total. She has basically no other protruding structural elements as the deck and entire interior (bulkheads, berth-flats, etc) are foam core composite and designed to be structural. Therefore she is very open down below.

Granted steel would be thinner, but then you would have insulation, etc to add to the steel and a steel vessel would not be near as light.

I have read that various lab tests show that wood/composite can be stiffer and stronger than steel. (And I believe that wood/composite is a better insulator for temperature and noise.)

I have nothing against steel as a vessel material (or any other material for that matter), each material has a valid place in boat building. (I have 316SS keel floors to distribute the keel loads via some G-10 girders throughout the hull.)

This argument of one material being better than another makes no sense to me, each material has pros and cons, the best vessels use many different materials in different applications to accomplish the desired mission. As all missions are different, each might take a different approach and use different materials.

My vessel is built of wood (western red cedar, fir, cherry, ash), West System Epoxy, carbon fiber, solid G-10, titanium, several brands of dense and light weight foam core, VectorPly in several different weights, 316 SS, Aqua-mat 22, anodized aluminum, sheathed mild steel, lead, Dacron, Spectra, and I am sure I have forgotten to list other items used in her build.

All boat building materials have their place IMHO, even ferro-cement.

Cheers!


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## bfloyd4445

kimbottles said:


> As contrast, the western red cedar strip planking of my new Perry 62'er is one inch thick and the West System sheathing (set in tri-axial 24 ounce Vectorply) adds only a fraction of an inch, so no more than 1-1/16 total. She has basically no other protruding structural elements as the deck and entire interior (bulkheads, berth-flats, etc) are foam core composite and designed to be structural. Therefore she is very open down below.
> 
> Granted steel would be thinner, but then you would have insulation, etc to add to the steel and a steel vessel would not be near as light.
> 
> I have read that various lab tests show that wood/composite can be stiffer and stronger than steel. (And I believe that wood/composite is a better insulator for temperature and noise.)
> 
> I have nothing against steel as a vessel material (or any other material for that matter), each material has a valid place in boat building. (I have 316SS keel floors to distribute the keel loads via some G-10 girders throughout the hull.)
> 
> This argument of one material being better than another makes no sense to me, each material has pros and cons, the best vessels use many different materials in different applications to accomplish the desired mission. As all missions are different, each might take a different approach and use different materials.
> 
> My vessel is built of wood (western red cedar, fir, cherry, ash), West System Epoxy, carbon fiber, solid G-10, titanium, several brands of dense and light weight foam core, VectorPly in several different weights, 316 SS, Aqua-mat 22, anodized aluminum, sheathed mild steel, lead, Dacron, Spectra, and I am sure I have forgotten to list other items used in her build.
> 
> All boat building materials have their place IMHO, even ferro-cement.
> 
> Cheers!


you cant take a cutting torch to wood, cut out a piece then weld in another like you can with steel. Aluminum can be handled this way but it takes more skill and annealing is a problem. fibreglass is pretty easy to repair and properly laid up very very strong. I prefer wood for many reason but no longer own any wood boats because of the upkeep


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## kimbottles

bfloyd4445 said:


> you cant take a cutting torch to wood, cut out a piece then weld in another like you can with steel. Aluminum can be handled this way but it takes more skill and annealing is a problem. fibreglass is pretty easy to repair and properly laid up very very strong. I prefer wood for many reason but no longer own any wood boats because of the upkeep


Wood/composite is easy to repair if you have the necessary skill. There are several schools in the USA and elsewhere that teach these skill.

One example: Northwest School of Wooden Boat Building | Port Hadlock, Washington


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## bobperry

Golly, you guys make yacht design so complicated.
I put on some nice music and I draw a boat. Over and over it seems to work. But I don't work in a vacuum.

You have to take a wholistic approach. See the boat. Be the boat In a Chevy Chase voice). Kim's got it. Jeff takes the surgical approach. "I could remove the spleen but then I'd have to,,,,," No if you remove the spleen you are spleenless.

Len:
6" deck beams? 6" by what? Molded? Sided? On what centers? This is some mammoth vessel you are describing.


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## Classic30

bfloyd4445 said:


> you cant take a cutting torch to wood, cut out a piece then weld in another like you can with steel.


Thankfully.. All you need is a Fein, boat nails and another piece of wood.

I can't think of anything in boat-repair much more difficult than patching a hole with plate steel. It looks simple enough to an onlooker, but I've seen even professional welders (cheap ones, I might add) stuff it up totally by not allowing for weld stress and heating.

EDIT: Thinking about this, in theory you* might* be able to cut wood with a plasma cutter. Dunno.. I'm not silly enough to try it. It's always easier to use the right tools for the job at hand.


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## Capt Len

Bob ,Thane is a modified Spray, 40 lodeck 22ton .all yellow cedar, frames 4x4 laminated on 18 inch centers and deck beams 6x6 on 24", planking is 2x2 strip yellow cedar. Fairly stout and CSI for 18 passengers. See her on you tube Thane sail past. I've taught welding at tech school so building in steel (origami) wouldn't be a problem but there is something about a woodie that brings in 6 figures a summer so I don't have to exert myself.


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## bobperry

"but there is something about a woodie that brings in 6 figures a summer so I don't have to exert myself. "

So, let me get this correct, you are saying you run a whorehouse out of your boat?
Cool.


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## Capt Len

Actually, I've done that as we followed the herring fleet. Interesting charter. but now I'm the (commercial link). Legit and easier.and more satisfied customers.


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## Capt Len

Back to steel construction... I can think of at least two incidences where poor welding caused the sinking of the vessel. One was the Newfoundland ferry from Cape Breton. Dead of winter and the access plate cut during refit for the removal of an engine room generator in the hull was only tacked. Popped out ( or in) and that was that.Another case was the 90 ft?? charter sail built behind Capital Iron .Name escapes me but I distinctly remember the owner hired welders off the street. They fitted hull plating out of bits and cuttings to fill the gaps. Welded on the outside only, no bevel and ground down to look good Of course a piece gave in and she sank in the inside passage. All this to say a constructee is only as good as the constructor. regardless of medium.


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## smackdaddy

Capt Len said:


> ...All this to say a constructee is only as good as the constructor. regardless of medium.


This is exactly right. Which is why typical cruising wannabes without significant welding/fabrication experience should stay away from building their own steel boat. It just makes no sense. They should put their money and time into sailing instead.


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## bobperry

We now have four builders very interested in building the peen pod. This will put me in a position I am not comfortable in. I just produce designs. I don't arrange the build of multiple boats. There has to be some balance point between quality and price. But the latest builder to contact me is very, very good and also close by.


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## smackdaddy

Design a cool, beautiful boat - everything else just falls into place.

As for Brent, I think his issue with you is that you're just having too much fun.


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## djodenda

It's a nice-looking boat, Bob..

It is kind of you to share the process with us.


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## bobperry

Denda:
Thanks. Right now I'm like a guy running around showing his hot new girlfriend off.

As of half an hour ago we now have six boats spoken for.
POPEYE
BLUTO
OLIVE OIL
SWEET PEA
are names already taken.
WIMPY is still available.


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## Faster

bobperry said:


> BLIMPY is still available.


....wasn't that "Wimpy"????


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## Capt Len

Blimpy should be reserved for the extreme girth wrapped around the pramish bow.A gentleman should be able to stand while pulling a prawn trap.be glad to pay you on Tuesday.


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## bobperry

Yeah, fixed that. It was WIMPY and it's also OLIVE OYL.


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## Brent Swain

Classic30 said:


> Thankfully.. All you need is a Fein, boat nails and another piece of wood.
> 
> I can't think of anything in boat-repair much more difficult than patching a hole with plate steel. It looks simple enough to an onlooker, but I've seen even professional welders (cheap ones, I might add) stuff it up totally by not allowing for weld stress and heating.
> 
> EDIT: Thinking about this, in theory you* might* be able to cut wood with a plasma cutter. Dunno.. I'm not silly enough to try it. It's always easier to use the right tools for the job at hand.


 Use rounded corners on any patches. Weld the rounded corners last . The rest, weld an inch, let it cool, then weld another inch , etc. This lets the welds cool, and shrink as far as they are going to, before closing the circle.


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## Brent Swain

When comparing metal with other materials, one should bear in mind that only metal has the same tensile strength in all directions. Douglas fir has a tensile strength along the grain only. Across the grain it is very weak. With planked boats ,that means the planking has strength longitudinally only. The frames give the transverse strength, usually much weaker. That is what transverse frames were invented for, a material which has strength in one direction only. It has very little diagonal strength, which is why Herreschoff used diagonal bronze strapping, to prevent diagonal movement, called hogging and sagging.

Cold molded?
At best, a tripe laminated cold molded hull only has about a third of its planking in any one direction. Whichever direction you load it, only a third of the wood in it has any tensile strength in that direction, the rest of the load is across the grain of the other laminations. So for a tensile strength of 1500 PSI for fir, a cold molded fir hull will have a third of that strength in any one direction. 
Fibreglass?
Roving has half its fibres in one direction and half in the other. So the best you can hope for is roughly half the maximum tensile strength of a fibreglass hull, in any one direction.
Diagonal strength? Matt?
In a random jumble of logs, there is very little wood and mostly air space. Similarly, in the random jumble of fibres which is fibreglass matt the thickness of the matt is only a tiny percentage glass fibres ( strength )and a huge percentage resin, which has very little strength. As roving is very rarely run diagonally, there is very little diagonal strength in most fibreglass hulls, which is why it is so easy to sag them with a hydraulic backstay adjuster. You will never get the ultimate tensile strength of fibreglass in any hull layup, for these reasons.
You can see this in old fibreglass SSB antenas. Unidirectional layup makes them strong, longitudinally, but weak transversely ,where you can twist them apart by hand, if you cut the metal end off one. 

Steel however, has 60,000 psi tensile strength in all directions, period.


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## Classic30

Brent Swain said:


> Use rounded corners on any patches. Weld the rounded corners last . The rest, weld an inch, let it cool, then weld another inch , etc. This lets the welds cool, and shrink as far as they are going to, before closing the circle.


Quite true, Brent. .. and bevel the edges of the patch first also.

I guess my point is that it's hardly a trivial exercise.


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## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> I think that you and I are trying to say roughly the same thing. I was saying it in the negative by pointing out that in and of itself, increasing the displacement of a boat does it automatically add to carrying capacity.
> 
> You are pointing out in the positive, a heavier boat does not have greater carrying capacity if that added weight is in the form of a heavy hull and deck structure.
> 
> Jeff


In a heavier boat, the percentage of increase in her displacement, by adding a given weight of personal effects and stores, will be less than it would be in a lighter boat, and the heavier designed boat will be floating much closer to her original weight. The percentage of change will be far less in a heavier design.


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## bobperry

GRP boats in all their iterations are here to stay until something better comes along. It won't be steel.

Just a reminder, again, this Nordic 40 just completed a solo circumnavigation. Remarkably it is still in one piece. The owner is very happy with the boat. It's a great looking boat.

Brent's constant whining that our GRP boats are not up to the job can be proven wrong over and over just with my own designs. Lighten up Brent. You like steel boats and some people don't. What's wrong with that?


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## Brent Swain

bfloyd4445 said:


> whew, Bob speaks well for steel but he is forgetting that one could make a car with four inch Armour plate then drive letting others just bounce off but the price paid in energy expended to move all that extra weight is more than most of us wish to bear no matter what our income. Not a matter of what one can afford as what's best for the world and future generations. When I don't fly, boat, I drive a vw Golf TDI, the prius eater, only because I have little desire to squander non renewable resources. The fact is for small craft steel requires just too much energy to move from point a to b. Basic engineering.
> I'm sure you engineering types can grasp the concept<smile>
> That said I love steel boats, they are realistically just not cost effective under 50 feet


When the wind is free and environmentally sustainable, what is the problem?
With my tiny income, a months wages a year on average, for the last 37 years in my 29 ft and 31 ft steel sailboats , including building the latter, what is not cost effective about that?


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## bobperry

"In a heavier boat, the percentage of increase in her displacement, by adding a given weight of personal effects and stores, will be less than it would be in a lighter boat, and The percentage of change will be far less in a heavier design. " Brent Swain

THIS IS TOTALLY WRONG! It shows what little grasp BS has of design elements.

Let me explain:
Say we have two 40' boats. One weighs 30,000 lbs. The other boat weighs 15,000 lbs. Half the weight of the other. Both boats have similar DWL's, say 33'. Both boats have similar beam, say 12'8". The heavier boat will have much greater hull epth and that's where the extra displ comes from.

But displacement has nothing to do with where a boat floats as it is loaded or unloaded. ZERO! The number we are looking for here is "pounds per inch immersion" or PPI. It's very easy to calculate. You take the square footage of your waterplane, the boat's footprint in the water, and multiply that by 64 and then divide by 12. For our example boats we will end up with a PPI around 1,300 lbs.

So, you put 1,300 lbs. of gear on either boat and it will sink an inch. Due to the flare of the hulls the waterplane will increase as the boat sinks and the PPI will go up gradually. But how a boat responds in flotation to loads being added has nothing to do with
displacement. This is often misunderstood by beginners or people not skilled in yacht design.

Two boats with generally similar DWLs and beam will have a similar waterplane area, give or take.
I could even easiyt draw examples where the heavier boat had less waterplane than the light boat. If this were the case then the heavy boat would sink more than the light boat for every pound loaded on. Consider this: You are only sinking the waterplane, not the boat that is already sunk. That volume is already "displaced".

"the heavier designed boat will be floating much closer to her original lines." Brent Swain

This is just nonsense. I'm sorry but anyone who claims to be a yacht designer should have a handle on PPI. I didn't make it up. Look on page 285 in Skene's. We might be falling back into that world where Brent thinks a boat can have a positive Rm of 182 degrees again. That still makes me chuckle.

If anyone has a problem understanding this let me know. I'll happily try to explain it in more clear terms if I need to.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Exactly Jeff.
> I have no concerns about the build Betts has built a lot of alu boats. He voiced his concerns so I know he is aware of the difficulties involved and I think he will devise a way to deal with them. I can't see me standing there asking him to "Let me try". I have never welded anything and I choose not to start now. Maybe I'll take my guitar and sit and playt while Jim welds. I can sing wqelding songs. That's it.
> 
> "I've been working on the railroad,,,,,,,,,,,,,"


Bob. Welding is simply hand eye co-ordination , which your skill at drawing shows you have in huge supply. Try it ,you may like it.
The first 36 I built was for a top notch artist. Hand eye co-ordination a was a given. I lit the cutting torch and ,for the first time ever, he gave it try, a perfect cut the first try. He handed it to his girlfriend, also an artist, and again ,a perfect cut. The skipper did a lot of steel sculptures after that ,having picked up welding almost as quickly.
You could enjoy metal working so much you could get addicted . There are worse addictions . So go ahead, have a go at it. You may enjoy it immensely.


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## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> "In a heavier boat, the percentage of increase in her displacement, by adding a given weight of personal effects and stores, will be less than it would be in a lighter boat, and The percentage of change will be far less in a heavier design. " Brent Swain
> 
> This is often misunderstood by beginners or people not skilled in yacht design.
> 
> If anyone has a problem understanding this let me know. I'll happily try to explain it in more clear terms if I need to.


Can you draw some simple pictures for me and Brent? It's a little complicated for guys like us.


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## bfloyd4445

Classic30 said:


> Thankfully.. All you need is a Fein, boat nails and another piece of wood.
> 
> I can't think of anything in boat-repair much more difficult than patching a hole with plate steel. It looks simple enough to an onlooker, but I've seen even professional welders (cheap ones, I might add) stuff it up totally by not allowing for weld stress and heating.
> 
> EDIT: Thinking about this, in theory you* might* be able to cut wood with a plasma cutter. Dunno.. I'm not silly enough to try it. It's always easier to use the right tools for the job at hand.


interesting thought, plasma cutter for plastic. Lasers work well so why not one of those engineered for boat plastic


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## bobperry

I think BS stepped in it with that post. Don't imagine we'll see much of him tonight. I would hope he is reading a book on yacht design.

Yeah Smacks, I can draw a picture for you but not tonight.

If you have Douglas Phillips-Birt's book SAILING YACHT DESIGN it's on page 221.
If you have Steve Killing's book YACHT DESIGN EXPLAINED there is a discussion of waterplane on page 42.


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## desert rat

I ordered a couple. They wont get here for a week of so. One by Brewer and one by some guy named Perry.


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## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Yeah Smacks, I can draw a picture for you but not tonight.


[[Psst - I actually understand your explanation. I just thought the pictures would help _you know who_ - and I can take the heat as the "ignorant one". I don't mind taking a bullet for Team Steel as long as it helps you know who.]]


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## bobperry

I figured that Smackers.
I'm a bit torn. If there were others here who needed the drawing I would do it. But if there aren't I'm not keen on educating Brent.


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## smackdaddy

Actually, I think you're right Bob. Just keep moving with the peenpod instead of drawing pictures (even though they're obviously needed in this case). 

Showing how it's actually done with a final product is always the best way to teach.


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## Jeff_H

On other occasions and on other sites, I have had the discussion about relationship of design displacement to carrying capacity with Brent and others. As Bob has already pointed out, I too have tried to explain that the main factor in carrying capacity is the water plane of the boat, and then talked at length about some of the other factors that come into play as well. Its never an easy sell.

I completely agree with Bob that the key determinant in how much surplus carrying capacity (I am using this term to mean the difference between a boat with just enough gear to be sailed, and same boat fully loaded with as much as weight as it can reasonably carry and still sail reasonably well) a boat has is the amount of weight required to submerge the boat a given amount. And because that is determined by the water plane, its entirely possible that a lighter boat will have an equal surplus carrying capacity as a heavier boat in terms of the weight it can carry before it submerses to a point where performance and safety is unreasonably compromised.

The fact that a longer waterline boat will generally have a larger water plane relative to its displacement is one of the main reasons that I argue that in comparing two boats of equal displacement, the boat with the longer waterline of the two, will generally have a higher carrying capacity.

But, with all due respect, there are other factors in this discussion, some of which are especially relevant as they purtain to steel construction. I normally prefer to discuss this from the stand point of length to displacement, and to do so by comparing two equal displacement boats of different lengths. This is in contract to the normal way of discussing this issue is to refer to 'heavy' and 'light' boats, which in effect assumes that we have two equal length boats of differing displacement.

The reason I say that the conventional 'light vs heavy' terminology makes little sense is that when it comes to selecting an ocean crossing cruiser, it seems more appropriate to make a determination of the amount of surplus carrying capacity that is needed for the voyages being contemplated and to pick a boat with that carrying capacity. In that case, you are making a decision between a shorter boat with that capacity vs a longer boat with that capacity. And if that is the comparason, within reason, and most other factors being similar, the longer boat will be more seaworthy, offer better motion comfort, be more fuel efficient, have better greater performance, and should be easier to handle. Initial and maintenance costs should be similar since most opperating costs are proportionate to displacement (dockage perhaps being the exception).

But if this is being discussed using the conventional 'light vs heavy' terminology, the most significant of these secondary influences is sail area and the ability to stand up that sail area relative to displacement and this point is much more complex. Generally speaking, relative to a 'heavy' boat, a 'light' boat will have more stability relative to its drag and displacement and so will also be able to stand up to more sail area relative to its drag and displacement. But, on an absolute scale, the heavy boat will have more sail area. Even if we assume that the these two boats have the same carrying capacity since they have the same water plane, and a similar SA/D, the 'light' boat would experience a larger decrease in its SA/D when fully loaded than the 'heavy' boat, and that would in theory mean that the 'heavy' boat would experience less loss of performance, especially in lighter conditions. I use the term 'in theory' because the lighter boat would generally have more stability relative to its displacement and drag, and so may actually be able to physically carry more sail area than its SA/D would predict, and may not suffer as badly as the number might seem to predict.

But all that aside, coming back to the agrument that someone presented a while back that (paraphrased) "a steel boat is heavier, and a heavier boat is better for ocean cruising, therefore a steel boat is better for ocean cruising", I respectfully suggest that is a mistaken argument in many ways.

I can perhaps explain why I think this is a bogus argument by comparing the example of two boats with the exact same displacement, hull and rig design, only one is constructed in steel and one with a substantially lighter hull and deck.

Whatever that difference in the hull and deck weight, that weight savings can be better used in mix of ways. Some of that weight can be used to add more ballast weight, increasing stability and slowing roll rates, some of that weight can be used to increase the surplus carrying carrying capacity of the boat, and some of that weight can use to strategically beef up the structure. And so collectively, it would be easy to argue that that the boat with the lighter hull and deck weight would actually make the better offshore cruiser than the steel boat.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## bobperry

Good post Jeff.

Keep in mind that the lighter boat most probably started with a higher SA/D to begin with. Then 30,000 lb. boat would probably have a SA/D in the 16.5 to 17.00 range. While the light boat could reasonably have a SA/D around 20 to 21, maybe even higher.. Not necessarily but most probably. So when loaded the lighter boat may still have the higher SA/D.


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## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> Good post Jeff.
> 
> Keep in mind that the lighter boat most probably started with a higher SA/D to begin with. Not necessarily but most probably. So when loaded the lighter boat may still have the higher SA/D.


That is an important point. One of my lessons from the design process for Wolf's boat, was that there came a point where I could not realistically get enough sail area onto the heavier boat (shorter for its displacement) to maintain close to the SA/D of the longer boat. I suppose that it may have been possible to add bowsprits and boomkins and stretch the sail plan horizontally, but that added sail area would have been pretty inefficient compared to that on the longer boat.

Jeff


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## bobperry

Jeff:
Exactly.

Ther comes a point with a heavy boat where you can't just keep rainign "I" to get a higher SA/D. The result of this is too big a rig over too small a deck platform and too high a center of pressure over what is typically a relatively high VCG.

A good eaxmple of this is Ted Hood's Little Harbor series. These boats were noted for good performance depsite their heavy displ but they had SA/D's down below 16.00 in many cases.


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## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> Jeff:
> Exactly.
> 
> There comes a point with a heavy boat where you can't just keep adding "I" to get a higher SA/D. The result of this is too big a rig over too small a deck platform and too high a center of pressure over what is typically a relatively high VCG.
> 
> A good eaxmple of this is Ted Hood's Little Harbor series. These boats were noted for good performance depsite their heavy displ but they had SA/D's down below 16.00 in many cases.


The Little Harbors were very interesting boats. To me they are a study in minimizing drag while carrying a deceptively large amount of sail area.

If you see one out of the water they are a study in how to reduce wetted surface. While they have a fair amount of deadrise (which is needed since they effectively have internal ballast), they are otherwise almost cylindrical sections. It really is a very strange hull form but it works in terms of minimal drag. It comes at the price of being a little tender and quite rolly.

But the sail plans are the really deceptive part. These boats had huge foretriangles and moderately small mainsails. While their SA/D (with the 100% foretriangle) was nothing to write home about, put a 155% genoa or a spinnaker on these boats and they carried a very large amount of sail area. That works great for beating a racing rule, but dragging those huge headsails around the rig is miserable to short-hand or cruise with.

Jeff


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## bobperry

Jeff:'
I think it was those large fore triangles on the Little Harbors and the large LP gennys that let them get away with low base SA/D's. Right, not fun to cruise with. But they sure were popular.


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## bfloyd4445

Jeff, seems to me your saying boat weigh closer to the center of the earth is better than to the deck for vessels of the same displacement. 

best wishes
Britt


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## Jeff_H

bfloyd4445 said:


> Jeff, seems to me your saying boat with its weight closer to the center of the earth is better than having its weight on the deck for vessels of the same displacement. (editted by Jeff H)
> 
> best wishes
> Britt


Something more like that....


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## bobperry

Ok, I can;t stand it, but the thread is called "the pros and cons". So here is some more cons.

The keel went on the FRANCIS LEE today. The boat was weighed in a travel lift. Extensive effort and care was taken to isnure the keel was bolted on in line fore and aft and in line vertically. This is far from a "good enough" or as the Chinese would say it, "chubadoa" effort.

We weighed the boayt in the travel lift. I am always suspect of travel lifts. I believe accurate displacements can only be taken from freeboards of the boat. But with admitted hypocracy this weight came in perfect so I am inclined to think it is correct. We have a rudder, a rig, some fuel, some water and some misc items to add along with a crew and we should be spot on my weight calculation.

This is a beauitiful boat. It's not a lumpy, bumpy unfair thing that happens to float. This is a boat designed for a very specific purpose for a very specific client.

In my last email from the client it was clear he is very happy.

Forgive me if I gloat but I have worked hard, a lot of people have worked hard, to produce an end like this. I'm not sure "gloating" is the right word. But it's that feeling you get when everything is coming together just the way you planned it.


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## bfloyd4445

chuckle....Bob, I know that feeling you describe. One always wonders if things will come out like you wish and better than what the customer expects but when it does it gives one a warm glow and feeling of euphoric relief at a job well done


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## smackdaddy

Holy crap that's a cool boat! Kimbo - you are gonna be pimpin'.

I've got an observation here. I think what I've learned from this thread more than anything is that building boats (especially steel boats) is really pretty easy. It's the design that's hard. There's a hell of a lot involved and you have to actually know what you're doing. You can't just bluster your way through it and hope those that don't know any better don't catch on.

It's not the material. It's the mind. And I'm sure Brent would agree with that. It's a whole different league.


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## bobperry

Euphoric relief?
Yeah, I think that describes it perfectly.


----------



## PCP

Brent Swain said:


> In a heavier boat, the percentage of increase in her displacement, by adding a given weight of personal effects and stores, will be less than it would be in a lighter boat, and the heavier designed boat will be floating much closer to her original lines. The percentage of change will be far less in a heavier design.


I guess I understand what you are trying to say but you are saying it the wrong way. Has Bob pointed out on boats with a similar water-plane a given load will have the same effect in what regards inches of immersion and that has nothing to do with the weight of the boats... but if a boat weights twice the weight of another those inches are a much smaller proportion regarding the total immersed area, close to 50%, and that will translate in a bigger tolerance in what regards that load. I mean the boat will be less affected by that load.

For instance imagine a very light carbon racer that has the same waterplane of an heavy steel voyage boat that weights 7 times more (and has a hugely bigger immersed area).

Both boats will be immersed the same number of inches by the same big load, let's say half the weight of the racing boat but half of the weight of the racing boat is just 1/14 times of the weight of the steel boat and while the racer will be very sluggish carrying a load that corresponds to half of its weight (and represent a big perceptual amount of his immersed surface) the heavy still boat will have perceptually a small increase in his total immersed area, one that will corresponds to 1/14 of its own weight.

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

Paulo:
I agree with you. But I have a caveat:
" half the weight of the racing boat"? For a reasonable load?

I'd prefer to try to keep the examples and comparison closer to reality.

I don't think that is a realistic load Paulo. You expect a 15,000 lb. 40'er to take on a 7.500 lb. load? Can't see that happening. I don't think trying to compare extreme examples of types ever works. The heavy boat in your example was probably a pig to begin with and will still be a pig when it's loaded.

I know you know that. I was simply asking for a cogent explanation of Brent's post. To my understanding of yacht design principles it was clearly wrong. That is beyond argument.

That's all.


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## blt2ski

Bob,

are those pics at CSR? have a long day driving on the other side of the pond, wish I could get there and see how she looks. Maybe next week...........

Marty


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## bobperry

Marty:
Yes those pics are from CSR. Go buy. Take a look.
Then drive north and spend some time at the shack.


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## blt2ski

I go south a lot mroe than north. Altho may try to get to anacortes wed for an off shore sail use seminar. Not sure I will ever use the info, but what the hay, it may inspire me to try the vic/maui which is the target user group........At the Ullman loft.

Should be able to get by CSR sooner than later........if Kathy lets me in........lolol


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## PCP

Bob, I think we are saying the same thing but you misunderstood me:

"I agree with you. But I have a caveat:
" half the weight of the racing boat"? For a reasonable load?"

Yes that is the point half the weight as a reasonable load on a sail boat is ridiculous but, if another (stell) boat is many times heavier and has the same water-plane it will go down as much inches in the waterline if we charge it with half the weight of the racing boat, but if that boat is 7 times heavier that load will only correspond to 1/14 of its weight and will be probably an acceptable load. 

I did not have mentioned any size for the boats and 7 times the weight is an exaggeration but what is true for that proportion is still true (in a lesser way) for a smaller proportion.

Let's come to the reality:

A modern top racing sailboat with 46ft weights about 5000kg and a steel passage-maker with the same lenght can weight about 21000kg (for example the Ted Brewer Kanter Atlantic 46). That means that the steel boat is 4.2 times heavier. let's imagine that they have the same water-plane and what I am saying is that even if they will go down at the waterline the same number of inches with a load of 2500kg, that would clearly be an impossible load to the 5T boat while it would be possible on the 21T boat, I mean at least with the boats sailing the way they were designed to sail.

I think that was what Brent was trying to say even if he said that the wrong way.

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

This is not a debate.
Brent said exactly what he was trying to say. What he actually did say was factually wrong, incorrect, at odds with the elements of yacht design. I don't care to guess what he was trying to say.

I understand perfectly what you are trying to illustrate with your examples.
I'd prefer to use more typical boat examples. In my example I used two boats I know. And in an effort to keep it real, the owner of the light boat wouldn't even dream of loading his boat the way his heavier neighbor does.

I agree with you that there is more stowage space for the extra gear on the heavy boat. But changes in performance involve a lot more variables than introduced here so I not going to speculate on that. For the sake of argument I would say generally the overloaded light boat is still the better performer. It had a far higher SA/D to begin with and probably has a higher SA/D loaded. It is also, generally speaking, the better overall , more modern design. But again, too many variables with this to speculate.


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## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> This is not a debate.
> Brent said exactly what he was trying to say. What he actually did say was factually wrong, incorrect, at odds with the elements of yacht design. I don't care to guess what he was trying to say.
> 
> I understand perfectly what you are trying to illustrate with your examples.
> I'd prefer to use more typical boat examples. In my example I used two boats I know. And in an effort to keep it real, the owner of the light boat wouldn't even dream of loading his boat the way his heavier neighbor does.
> 
> I agree with you that there is more stowage space for the extra gear on the heavy boat. But changes in performance involve a lot more variables than introduced here so I not going to speculate on that. For the sake of argument I would say generally the overloaded light boat is still the better performer. It had a far higher SA/D to begin with and probably has a higher SA/D loaded. It is also, generally speaking, the better overall , more modern design. But again, too many variables with this to speculate.


If modern designs are so much superior to the older ones how come its the older ones like the west sail 32, after forty years, that are still considered the best blue water boats by so many? To be honest Bob, I love the interiors of the new boats but am still very much attracted to the solid strength of vessels like the west sail 32. You just don't hear stories of the new bill Johnson special taking on the perfect storm and winning. You would think if the new boats were so much better the news media would be full of accounts of amazing survival stories preformed by these craft. But when one hits the news it always seemed to be one of the older designs.


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## jak3b

Survival stories are the result of bad planning.


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## kimbottles

Modern materials and methods are proven stronger. But it does not mean they are always used.

Well designed modern vessels are generally faster, more weatherly and often can avoid bad weather.

But good voyage planning and prudence are still the best way to avoid becoming a news story.


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## bfloyd4445

jak3b said:


> Survival stories are the result of bad planning.


chuckle....not sure that its possible to consider everything when making plans cause there are such things as rouge waves, tsunami's, etc. forces beyond our control that can only be dealt with when they happen not planned for.


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## bfloyd4445

kimbottles said:


> Modern materials and methods are proven stronger. But it does not mean they are always used.
> 
> Well designed modern vessels are generally faster, more weatherly and often can avoid bad weather.
> 
> But good voyage planning and prudence are still the best way to avoid becoming a news story.


I understand that. But you use words like generally, often in regards to modern designs but we can safely use words like, they have proven they can, they survived, they will Words that leave no doubt as to their proven capabilities when describing craft like the ws32.


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## bobperry

Who is Bill Johnson?

Floyd:
You are confusing two separate elements, design and build. They can be connect but oiften in regards to modern mass produced boats they are not. While the design may be first rate the build quality may be third rate as a fucntion of the builder making choices to save money. In the same was a very poor design can be beautifully built.

There is nothing stopping a builder from taking an older, traditional design and doing very poor job building it. If you are looking for "magic" in the old design keep, looking. I take each boat in individually and judge them that way. Please explain to me in detail what you mean by "these craft"? If you will. I have no idea what "these craft" means.

I kind of think the premise of your question needs to be rethought.


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## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> Who is Bill Johnson?
> 
> Floyd:
> You are confusing two separate elements, design and build. They can be connect but oiften in regards to modern mass produced boats they are not. While the design may be first rate the build quality may be third rate as a fucntion of the builder making choices to save money. In the same was a very poor design can be beautifully built.
> 
> There is nothing stopping a builder from taking an older, traditional design and doing very poor job building it. If you are looking for "magic" in the old design keep, looking. I take each boat in individually and judge them that way. Please explain to me in detail what you mean by "these craft"? If you will. I have no idea what "these craft" means.
> 
> I kind of think the premise of your question needs to be rethought.


Well you may be correct but the fact is that its boats like the old westsail that are used as examples of the best of the blue water cruisers made, not any of the modern designs. New designs of current manufacture may claim to be superior but where's the proof?
bill Johnson was a ficticious character that builds the latest and greatest blue water sailing vessels. I believe I used," those craft", in reference to these modern superior designs that that have yet to survive the perfect storm or gain a reputation for getting their crews home safe.
Just seems to me if these new designs are so very good then I would see news clips once in awhile about the miraculous survival of a bill Johnson yacht, but I don't. Does that mean they just disappear or that sailors just don't have enough confidence in them to venture out except in the most favorable conditions.

Please understand my knowledge and experience with sail is almost zero and I aplojize for my poor wording of my posts. I'm learning a lot from reading these forums and wish to thank you all.
Best wishes

Britt


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## tommays

Having seen way to much of my Cal 29 during the refit and seeing the WIDE RANGE of glass thickness in the hull i fell like Cal/Jenson had a pretty good handle on material strength

The boat has certainly passed the test of time and most of my work was necessary due to poor upkeep and collisions and the 40 something years of continues service

Kim

I think you would certainly agree that in bicycles for example the advances in low weight have come at a massive trade-off in price and are much more fragile in any kind of crash



My 2012 Cyclocross bike only has a Carbon fork BUT the next models up are from 200% to 400% ++ more money with 1000 something dollars per pound for weight reduction


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## PCP

bfloyd4445 said:


> Well you may be correct but the fact is that its boats like the old westsail that are used as examples of the best of the blue water cruisers made, not any of the modern designs. ...


Used as examples of the best bluewater cruisers by whom? By Naval Architects? By top sailors? or by sailors that sail in old boats and many times talk more than do buewater or offshore sailing?

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

" its boats like the old westsail that are used as examples of the best of the blue water cruisers made,"

I'm not buying this. I need you to be specific. I consider the Valiant 40 to be one of the best cruising boats ever built and I sure as hell wouldn't lump it in with the Westsail. I do consider the Westsail one of the very best production offshore boats of all time. But I don't think that this just spreads by contact or association to every old traditional designs. Some were great boats in their time and some were not, in any time. I don't generalize.

"Just seems to me if these new designs are so very good then I would see news clips once in awhile about the miraculous survival of a bill Johnson yacht, but I don't."

Ok, allow me to be a smart ass for a moment. Maybe that's because the owners of the modern better performing boats are smarter and don't get caught out in survival situations.

Or, (less smart ass) the modern better performing boat is able to sail it's way out of those situations and not require survival tactics. The ability to go to weather well can be a life saver.

I still find this argument rife with generalities that make it irrelevant.

Oh, that Bill Johnson.


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## Jeff_H

bfloyd4445 said:


> Well you may be correct but the fact is that its boats like the old westsail that are used as examples of the best of the blue water cruisers made, not any of the modern designs. New designs of current manufacture may claim to be superior but where's the proof?
> 
> Please understand my knowledge and experience with sail is almost zero and I aplojize for my poor wording of my posts. I'm learning a lot from reading these forums and wish to thank you all.
> Best wishes
> 
> Britt


Britt, with all due respect, for the most part amongst knowledgeable sailors and cruisers, few would still say that the old Westsail 32's are still the best of the blue water cruisers made. They were good boats in their day, and if your goal is to go small and simple, they still may be a good choice for some folks. But there has been a century of design and seaworthiness research since the basic design was penned by Atkins.

If you take a long view of yacht design history, there has been a progressive understanding of what makes a seaworthy boat, a boat with a comfortable motion, an easily handled boat, and so on. In each generation, there have been better and worse type forms. In Atkin's day, the 'Eric', from which the Westsail derived, was a super design given the state of art materials and methods. The reason that boats like the Westsails and Ingrids are still revered is that they were spectacularly good distance cruisers as compared to the boats that people like Adlard Coles was sailing and writing about.

And there is no doubt that there were periods in yacht design history where the run of the mill boat was a pretty lousy design to take offshore. But in almost all periods there have been cruising designs which have advanced the collective understanding of what makes a good offshore cruiser.

You say, "Please understand my knowledge and experience with sail is almost zero." There is nothing wrong with that, we all started somewhere. But whether you know it or not, you are debating with Bob Perry, who is the designer whose Valiant design progressed cruising yacht thinking a giant leap past the thinking which generated the Eric and Ingrid. Bob's Tayana 37, out Ingrid-ed the Ingrid, meaning it started from the same basic 19th century Colin Archer design concepts as the Ingrid but tweaked tweaked the design for the better as only a designer who lived 70 years later could.

But as good as Bob's Valiant 40 and Tayana 37 were in their day, it has been roughly 40 years since those designs first made waves. And I doubt that Bob would disagree that there has been a lot learned even in those 40 years and that if given a similar brief today, those designs would not look as they did. And the new designs would be more seaworthy, faster, easier to handle, have a better motion, but equally as sturdy, capable of carrying supplies, and bringing its crew back home.

These 40 years have been amazing in terms of what yacht designers and theorsists have learned about motion and seaworthiness, structural loading and the behavior of small boats underway. There has been a giant leap forward in terms of the design tools which exist. There have been huge advances in the materials and methods which are readily available. And collectively these have allowed inventive advances in the ways to make boats work better than they ever have in the past.

And so while not all new boats take advanage of these lessons, and its easy to point at some modern coastal cruiser and to try to make a case that a modern coastal cruiser is not as good a boat as some purpose built offshore cruiser from the past, as someone who has sailed for over 50 years on boat designs that date from the late 1880's through comparatively modern boats, I can tell you that comparing designs purposefully developed for the same specific purposes but from each period of time, the newer designs are truly safer, faster, more easily handled boats to sail in all conditions.

And that is the point being made.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## bobperry

I have learned a lot in 40 years Jeff. When I started out I thought we, my fellow sailors and I, were all, going to go on this adventure of learning together. Then one day I realized that there were a lot of people not keeping up. I guess it was a stupid assumption of mine that made me think we'd all progress together. But if you look around at some of the marvelous,well rounded boats being produced today (just look at Paulo's thread on interesting boats) it's obvious that some people have kept up with me and quite a few have passed me.

Wait for me guys!


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> I have learned a lot in 40 years Jeff. When I started out I thought we, my fellow sailors and I, were all, going to go on this adventure of learning together. Then one day I realized that there were a lot of people not keeping up. I guess it was a stupid assumption of mine that made me think we'd all progress together. But if you look around at some of the marvelous,well rounded boats being produced today (just look at Paulo's thread on interesting boats) it's obvious that some people have kept up with me and quite a few have passed me.
> 
> Wait for me guys!


Some cling with a white fisted grip, to the past, and attack anyone suggesting anything could ever be done in a better way, or for that matter, in any way, which is any different from the way it has always been done. Those are the people we left behind. Had humanity let them call the shots, we would have never made it out of the stone age


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## Brent Swain

PCP said:


> I guess I understand what you are trying to say but you are saying it the wrong way. Has Bob pointed out on boats with a similar water-plane a given load will have the same effect in what regards inches of immersion and that has nothing to do with the weight of the boats... but if a boat weights twice the weight of another those inches are a much smaller proportion regarding the total immersed area, close to 50%, and that will translate in a bigger tolerance in what regards that load. I mean the boat will be less affected by that load.
> 
> For instance imagine a very light carbon racer that has the same waterplane of an heavy steel voyage boat that weights 7 times more (and has a hugely bigger immersed area).
> 
> Both boats will be immersed the same number of inches by the same big load, let's say half the weight of the racing boat but half of the weight of the racing boat is just 1/14 times of the weight of the steel boat and while the racer will be very sluggish carrying a load that corresponds to half of its weight (and represent a big perceptual amount of his immersed surface) the heavy still boat will have perceptually a small increase in his total immersed area, one that will corresponds to 1/14 of its own weight.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


In a heavier boat, the extra load will mean far less change in the sail area to displacement ratio.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> GRP boats in all their iterations are here to stay until something better comes along. It won't be steel.
> 
> Just a reminder, again, this Nordic 40 just completed a solo circumnavigation. Remarkably it is still in one piece. The owner is very happy with the boat. It's a great looking boat.
> 
> Brent's constant whining that our GRP boats are not up to the job can be proven wrong over and over just with my own designs. Lighten up Brent. You like steel boats and some people don't. What's wrong with that?


The Kon Tiki did the job she was built for. Doesn't make her the best choice for ocean cruising.


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## PCP

Bob you are one of the designers that will remain as a major influence in the XX century yacht design. You know that and I know that too. 

Unfortunately sailing has taken a set back in the states that did not happen in Europe. For evolution it is needed work a lot of work and not only by a few designers but it comes from a global everynoment where the creativity of many talents creates a fast development of the art (and new materials) that is fueled not only by many new commands of cruising boats but also for a very fertile offshore racing panorama that creates a lot of healthy competition not only between sailors but also between designers.

While in Europe the shipyards that produce cruising boats command the designs of their boats to the best NA, many times the same that are involved in the racing scene, in the USA I saw the bigger producers like Hunter or Catalina doing in the house the designs. How can they compete in design quality and evolution with NA that are involved in that creativity bath and that are competing hard in what regards the quality and innovation of their work, assisted by high computerized technology and material knowledge developed on the racing scene? 

There are talented boat designers in the states (you included) and I really cannot understand why the major US brands do not use their talent and try instead to copy with some delay what is being made in Europe, bad copies many times, I would say.

I like your designs and the obvious perfectionism you put in your work and I love the attitude you just expressed in your last post. I do really want to see the new designs inspired by it.

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

"In a heavier boat, the percentage of increase in her displacement, by adding a given weight of personal effects and stores, will be less than it would be in a lighter boat, and The percentage of change will be far less in a heavier design. " Brent Swain

THIS IS TOTALLY WRONG! It shows what little grasp BS has of design elements.

Let me explain:
Say we have two 40' boats. One weighs 30,000 lbs. The other boat weighs 15,000 lbs. Half the weight of the other. Both boats have similar DWL's, say 33'. Both boats have similar beam, say 12'8". The heavier boat will have much greater hull epth and that's where the extra displ comes from.

But displacement has nothing to do with where a boat floats as it is loaded or unloaded. ZERO! The number we are looking for here is "pounds per inch immersion" or PPI. It's very easy to calculate. You take the square footage of your waterplane, the boat's footprint in the water, and multiply that by 64 and then divide by 12. For our example boats we will end up with a PPI around 1,300 lbs.

So, you put 1,300 lbs. of gear on either boat and it will sink an inch. Due to the flare of the hulls the waterplane will increase as the boat sinks and the PPI will go up gradually. But how a boat responds in flotation to loads being added has nothing to do with
displacement. This is often misunderstood by beginners or people not skilled in yacht design.

Two boats with generally similar DWLs and beam will have a similar waterplane area, give or take.
I could even easiyt draw examples where the heavier boat had less waterplane than the light boat. If this were the case then the heavy boat would sink more than the light boat for every pound loaded on. Consider this: You are only sinking the waterplane, not the boat that is already sunk. That volume is already "displaced".

"the heavier designed boat will be floating much closer to her original lines." Brent Swain

This is just nonsense. I'm sorry but anyone who claims to be a yacht designer should have a handle on PPI. I didn't make it up. Look on page 285 in Skene's. We might be falling back into that world where Brent thinks a boat can have a positive Rm of 182 degrees again. That still makes me chuckle.

If anyone has a problem understanding this let me know. I'll happily try to explain it in more clear terms if I need to.


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## bobperry

"In a heavier boat, the extra load will mean far less change in the sail area to displacement ratio. "

Yes Brent but that's IS NOT what you said. You said what you said and I'm still waiting for an explanation. (see above post) Maybe you can't answer it due to a meeting with the Flat Earth Society tonight. Please explain your math on this and quit weaseling out of the question.

How can I discuss yacht design with someone who still can't fathom Archimedes Principle?. 

Now let's address the SA/D issue. Excuse me here but I will have to generalize a bit. Chances are that the lighter boat started life with a much higher SA/D than did the heavy boat. The light boat could have had a SA/D of 22.5 even higher. While the heavy boat could have had a SA/D of 15.2 even lower.

Do the math. Come on Brent. You are obviously a whiz at math. Show me how the SA/D's change.

But it doesn't matter. We'll let Brent lick his pencil and go figuring. I think it is entirely reasonable to think the lighter design was probably the superior design to begin with. It's a newer boat I would assume. So even loaded down to where it shares the same SA/D with the heavy boat it is still the better boat.

But Brent has a point. He just has no clue how to make it:

The problem is, and I have gone over this before, on the light boat you will be challenged to find room for all that extra weight. If you want to carry 5,000 lbs. of gear on your trip the heavy boat can stash it away in its deep, cavernous hull somewhere. The light boat doesn't' have that option. But let's restore some reality here. The owner of the light boat would not have dreamed of carrying the same extra load as the heavy boat owner stowed. The light boat owner would be very careful what he took aboard and how that weight effected his boat. 

So, in the end it's a bit of a silly argument. You want a heavy boat? Go for it. You want a light boat? Go for it. But you can't carry the extra weight the heavy boat can. And it's not about ratios Brent. You don't understand them anyway (read previous post). It's not even about performance. It's about VOLUME.

And Brent:
"we would have never made it out of the stone age "
Sorry but your boats are the stone age. Look at Paulo's thread, Interesting sailboats. This is today.


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## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> " its boats like the old westsail that are used as examples of the best of the blue water cruisers made,"
> 
> I'm not buying this. I need you to be specific. I consider the Valiant 40 to be one of the best cruising boats ever built and I sure as hell wouldn't lump it in with the Westsail. I do consider the Westsail one of the very best production offshore boats of all time. But I don't think that this just spreads by contact or association to every old traditional designs. Some were great boats in their time and some were not, in any time. I don't generalize.


But you are Bob, your saying that modern designs are better and that is a generalization of the first order.

Valiant 40? never heard of it but I am going to look it up. What I know comes from rags like latitude 38, the yachtsman, and the forums



> Just seems to me if these new designs are so very good then I would see news clips once in awhile about the miraculous survival of a bill Johnson yacht, but I don't.





bobperry said:


> Ok, allow me to be a smart ass for a moment. Maybe that's because the owners of the modern better performing boats are smarter and don't get caught out in survival situations.Or, (less smart ass) the modern better performing boat is able to sail it's way out of those situations and not require survival tactics. The ability to go to weather well can be a life saver.


Sir, your exactly right. These are the same people that bought new westsails back in the days of old and made them famous. 
In your defense one of the reasons new models have failed to achieve the status of some older designs: I generalize here to keep from pointing fingers and offending someone. Is because of more advanced electronics that allows them current weather sea data instantly anyplace on the globe. That technology wasn't born back then so mariners were bound to get caught off guard.



bobperry said:


> Or, the modern better performing boat is able to sail it's way out of those situations and not require survival tactics. The ability to go to weather well can be a life saver.


I'll give you that one, good point. Couple that with better performance, modern materials the new instrumentation available now I'll bet even a dunce like me could make it safely across the bath tub.



bobperry said:


> I still find this argument rife with generalities that make it irrelevant...


Bob, have you ever sold used cars?......chuckle

Oh, that Bill Johnson.

You'd like him

Best wishes
Britt


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## bobperry

"Bob, have you ever sold used cars?......chuckle"
That is an insult.

I find you post incomprehensible.

Do me a favor. Go sailing. Learn something about sailing. You admit you know nothing about sailing. I truly believe you. Time to shut up and sail.

Go sailing. Then after you have sailed for three or four years you might know something about sailing and you can come back here and carry on a cogent conversation about boats.

Just start studying on your own. You have a lot to learn and it's fun.


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## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> "Bob, have you ever sold used cars?......chuckle"
> That is an insult.
> 
> I find you post incomprehensible.
> 
> Do me a favor. Go sailing. Learn something about sailing. You admit you know nothing about sailing. I truly believe you. Time to shut up and sail.
> 
> Go sailing. Then after you have sailed for three or four years you might know something about sailing and you can come back here and carry on a cogent conversation about boats.
> 
> Just start studying on your own. You have a lot to learn and it's fun.


thank you sir, good advice and will go tomorrow
I've learned much from you and others but need more hands on.


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## smackdaddy

bfloyd4445 said:


> Well you may be correct but the fact is that its boats like the old westsail that are used as examples of the best of the blue water cruisers made, not any of the modern designs. New designs of current manufacture may claim to be superior but where's the proof?


Check back on those new designs in 40 years. They will be out there and many of them will have done incredible things. Like the Hunter 49, Sequitur, that handled an F10/11 off Cape Horn without a problem.

I think your basic problem is putting stock in 40 years of old opinion. The "best blue water" opinions are there because those old boats have been around so long and are cheap enough for a wide audience to buy and, therefore, discuss. The new stuff is proving itself just fine. So stay tuned.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Had humanity let them call the shots, we would have never made it out of the stone age


True. At least you got as far as the bronze age before you started cruising.


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## Oregonian

Concerning the discussion of the modern design as contributed by JeffH, Perry, and PCP: I have delivered 3 different Tayana 37’s off shore. I’ve also delivered and day sailed an Alajuela 38, an 80+ year old Atkin, Ingrid design. The Alajuela 38 is, without question, the faster, more comfortable sea boat. Yes, the Tayana 37 has all the better numbers; D/L ratio, SA/D, prismatic coefficient, wetted surface, etc. Everything is better, except it is slower. Perry got the shape wrong. As he has done on other designs. Simply designing to the formulas doesn’t do it.
A few months ago, PCP stated some performance data for his New Bavaria 38. The data showed it to be on par with an Atkin 36. 
In many of the discussions by JeffH, “motion comfort” of the modern design is touted. In my experience, I have to say “No Way”. The lighter, flatter bottomed boat pounds FAR more than the older, heavier, good designs. This, to the point where many human beings simply can’t take it. What is acceptable for a day sail, during a weather window, is not acceptable for 2000 miles. I believe if Perry and JeffH actually did a little long distance voyaging, they might word their praise of the modern designs a little differently.
For what it is worth, I like the Tayana 37. It is a fine long distance cruising boat. A very viable option. But it is slower than the 80 year old Alajuela 38 design.


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## smackdaddy

Oregonian said:


> Concerning the discussion of the modern design as contributed by JeffH, Perry, and PCP: I have delivered 3 different Tayana 37's off shore. I've also delivered and day sailed an Alajuela 38, an 80+ year old Atkin, Ingrid design. The Alajuela 38 is, without question, the faster, more comfortable sea boat. Yes, the Tayana 37 has all the better numbers; D/L ratio, SA/D, prismatic coefficient, wetted surface, etc. Everything is better, except it is slower. Perry got the shape wrong. As he has done on other designs. Simply designing to the formulas doesn't do it.
> A few months ago, PCP stated some performance data for his New Bavaria 38. The data showed it to be on par with an Atkin 36.
> In many of the discussions by JeffH, "motion comfort" of the modern design is touted. In my experience, I have to say "No Way". The lighter, flatter bottomed boat pounds FAR more than the older, heavier, good designs. This, to the point where many human beings simply can't take it. What is acceptable for a day sail, during a weather window, is not acceptable for 2000 miles. I believe if Perry and JeffH actually did a little long distance voyaging, they might word their praise of the modern designs a little differently.
> For what it is worth, I like the Tayana 37. It is a fine long distance cruising boat. A very viable option. But it is slower than the 80 year old Alajuela 38 design.


PHRF Ratings:

ALAJUELA 38, 216
TAYANA 37, 174

Sorry dude. But it's probably more the case that you're kinda doing it wrong.


----------



## bobperry

OK Britt. You are going to have a lot of fun so long as you don't mind looking stupid
from time to time. But I took up golf at 40 so I know well about looking stupid.

It's all fun.

I'll help when I can


----------



## bobperry

Oregonian:
You have some personal issue that has nothing to do with boats. Sorry I have upset you.
You always seem to come around whining about something. Chill. Lighten up. It's SAILNG. Maybe you should get together with Brent. You guys can sit around and have an angry fest. The two of you always seem to turn sailig into an angry thing. WTF is that?

I think Smack has it correct. If you can't sail to the PHRF numbers you are doing it wrong. I could tell some Alajuela owner stories but I'll save them. They are choice. They are not my stories they are the stories the owners came to me with. I'll save them.


----------



## bobperry

Go to bed jeff.


----------



## smackdaddy

I noticed Brent didn't bother to address his earlier "indiscretion" on displacement math.

I really don't understand why he won't just set you guys straight. Obviously, he's holding back - not wanting to embarrass you guys. He's a good man. And he can stick to talking points like Chuck Norris can kick.

Just wait. At some point my man BS will feel you and Jeff are finally worthy of some straightening out on the whole calculus thing. I sure wanna be here when that happens...you pompous gits who work for The Man.


----------



## bobperry

Smackenheimer:
Brent will never address his stupid remarks about flotation. There is just no rebuttal. I kind of resent having to debate the elements of yacht design with someone who is still struggling with Archimedes Principle.

I struggled with it when I was 14 years old. But I eventually got it. Now I have it nailed.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Smackenheimer:
> Brent will never address his stupid remarks about flotation. There is just no rebuttal. I kind of resent having to debate the elements of yacht design with someone who is still struggling with Archimedes Principle.
> 
> I struggled with it when I was 14 years old. But I eventually got it. Now I have it nailed.


I think Brent and I had Archimedes' Principle in elementary school. That guy was a total dick (though the Assistant Principle was hot). You HAVE to struggle with dudes like that in order to cruise on $20 per year. We obviously won that struggle, baby.

Just wait Bob. When Brent finishes his ice cream - he'll school you like Socrates' Substitute.


----------



## bobperry

I have to go to bed. There are salmon out there and they will be swimming past my house at 6am and I need to be out there so I can kill them. That's my hope. It doesn't work that way. Today I bought the magic lure. But I don't have much hope for it. Not to worry. I am not the angry, uptight type. F,,,, ack the fish.

The good news is I will stand at the shoreline, watching my dogs eat the **** on the beach, smoking my corncob, thinking about my son and life in general and that will be a good morning, The best I can have anyway. Good enough for me.


----------



## bobperry

Smacks:
All we are is like dust in the wind.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Smacks:
> All we are is like dust in the wind.


Woah.










(I'm Keanu Reeves. Brent is that other guy.)


----------



## bobperry

That is perfect.
I'll laugh myself to sleep.

We just bonded.
But don't touch my leg.


----------



## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> OK Britt. You are going to have a lot of fun so long as you don't mind looking stupid
> from time to time. But I took up golf at 40 so I know well about looking stupid.
> 
> It's all fun.
> 
> I'll help when I can


thanks
all in fun. i gave up golf at 16, girls began to take up what little time I had left after school and work. My years of volunteering with autistic children taught me that stupid relates to ones subjectivity. The only dumb question is the one not asked. where would we be today in Sir Issac Newton hadn't of questioned why the apple fell?


----------



## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> True. At least you got as far as the bronze age before you started cruising.


Come now Smack - he made it to the IRON age of course.


----------



## bobperry

Origami steel yacht construction - Page 51 - Boat Design Forums

Here is a link to some intertesting views on Brent's work. It's best to scroll back though the thread to cartch the flavor of the discussion. But I can sum it up,,,ouch!


----------



## PCP

Oregonian said:


> Concerning the discussion of the modern design as contributed by JeffH, Perry, and PCP: I have delivered 3 different Tayana 37's off shore. I've also delivered and day sailed an Alajuela 38, an 80+ year old Atkin, Ingrid design. The Alajuela 38 is, without question, the faster, more comfortable sea boat. Yes, the Tayana 37 has all the better numbers; D/L ratio, SA/D, prismatic coefficient, wetted surface, etc. Everything is better, except it is slower. Perry got the shape wrong. As he has done on other designs. Simply designing to the formulas doesn't do it.
> *A few months ago, PCP stated some performance data for his New Bavaria 38. The data showed it to be on par with an Atkin 36. *
> In many of the discussions by JeffH, "motion comfort" of the modern design is touted. In my experience, I have to say "No Way". The lighter, flatter bottomed boat pounds FAR more than the older, heavier, good designs. This, to the point where many human beings simply can't take it. What is acceptable for a day sail, during a weather window, is not acceptable for 2000 miles. I believe if Perry and JeffH actually did a little long distance voyaging, they might word their praise of the modern designs a little differently.
> For what it is worth, I like the Tayana 37. It is a fine long distance cruising boat. A very viable option. But it is slower than the 80 year old Alajuela 38 design.


Well, I never had a Bavaria 38. My actual boat is faster than anything you are talking about by a huge margin.

The rest seems to me as confused as the confusions about my boat and the data I had posted about it.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
Don't let real facts get in the way of a good debate. 

A Bavaria 38 on a performance par with an Atkin 36? Don't know what Atkin 36 he refers to and I don't care. How do you back up that claim? Ridiculous. I love most of the old Atkin designs. But I appreciate them for what they are and not what they aren't.

Help yourself to more CoolAid Oregon.


----------



## PCP

bfloyd4445 said:


> ...
> Valiant 40? never heard of it but I am going to look it up. What I know comes from rags like latitude 38, the yachtsman, and the forums
> 
> ....
> 
> Britt


A word of advise: not to look ridiculous when someone that is a known and reputable boat designer says that a boat is one of the best cruisers ever built, before saying that you don't know the boat, just have a quick look at internet. The wikipedia is a good place for general information. How hard can that be? Then you will know of what is talking about:

"The Valiant 40 was the first boat designed by naval architect Robert Perry, it was introduced in 1973....

The boat's design was considered revolutionary at that time by bringing aspects of racing design into open ocean cruising yachts which up to then meant heavy and slow traditional boats.

The Valiant 40 is credited with birthing the category of the "performance cruiser".

It was the first open-ocean going cruising monohull to have a modified keel designed to reduce weight and wetted surface while increasing speed and ease of propulsion of the hull shape by the wind. ...

The success of several Valiant 40s competing in long ocean races during the early 1980s brought this boat to the notice of the world sailing community. Of special importance was a solo "wrong way" race completed in the Southern Ocean on a Westabout course, sailing into the prevailing winds, using a factory-stock V-40. Many cruising couples have made successful transoceanic voyages and Valiant 40s are reported to turn 160-mile (256 km) days regularly on a passage.

....

The Valiant 40 was elected to the American Sailboat Hall of Fame in 1997 and was named Cruising Sailboat of the Decade."






Regards

Paulo


----------



## bfloyd4445

PCP said:


> A word of advise: not to look ridiculous when someone that is a known and reputable boat designer says that a boat is one of the best cruisers ever built, before saying that you don't know the boat, just have a quick look at internet. The wikipedia is a good place for general information. How hard can that be? Then you will know of what is talking about:


Excuse me. I never claimed to be an all knowing reputable boat designer.

But I fully understand what your saying; to admit not being familiar with something makes one look ridiculous. Then you are implying that you and others would never be in that position because you are all knowing, or that you just wouldn't admit that you didn't know something because to do so may damage an inflated ego?...chuckle....
one demeaning remark deserves another

By the way, I've learned much from these discussions and I thank you all very much for that


----------



## GBurton

PCP said:


> Well, I never had a Bavaria 38. My actual boat is faster than anything you are talking about by a huge margin.
> 
> The rest seems to me as confused as the confusions about my boat and the data I had posted about it.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


What boat do you have Paulo?


----------



## bobperry

Floyd:
I am not "all knowing".
I think I can speak for most of us here: WE ARE NOT ALL KNOWING.
You are being an insulting person again. Is this a habit with you? If not I think you may have a problem with words. You do come off kind of smarmy. Yeah, smarmy is the correct word.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/metal-boat-building/origami-steel-yacht-construction-248-51.html


----------



## PCP

GBurton said:


> What boat do you have Paulo?


One of these:

Yachts and Yachting Magazine ? Expert Sailing Techniques for Dinghies, Keelboats and Cruiser Racers, Bob Fisher's America's Cup Blog - Comet 41s Review

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

bfloyd4445 said:


> Excuse me. I never claimed to be an all knowing reputable boat designer.
> 
> ...


I am not saying you are a reputable boat designer. I am saying that Bob, the one that is replying to you, is. He is the one that designed the Valiant.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
You can't possibly have any fun at all in that boat. What about the pounding? What about the reefs? What about the tankers with their frabjious bulbous bows?

You are most certainly living on the edge with that boat.

Looks like my kind of boat.

I wish I were all knowing. I want to know what the Oregon/Washington football score is right now.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/metal-boat-building/origami-steel-yacht-construction-248-51.html


----------



## GBurton

bobperry said:


> Floyd:
> I am not "all knowing".
> I think I can speak for most of us here: WE ARE NOT ALL KNOWING.
> You are being an insulting person again. Is this a habit with you? If not I think you may have a problem with words. You do come off kind of smarmy. Yeah, smarmy is the correct word.
> 
> Origami steel yacht construction - Page 51 - Boat Design Forums


Bob, did you ever think that maybe its you who is the angry one?


----------



## GBurton

PCP said:


> One of these:
> 
> Yachts and Yachting Magazine ? Expert Sailing Techniques for Dinghies, Keelboats and Cruiser Racers, Bob Fisher's America's Cup Blog - Comet 41s Review
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


That is more conservative looking than what I envisioned you owning. How much standing room is there in the salon?


----------



## bobperry

Fun and games with the "con" side of the thread today while we fit the tiller to the FRANCIS LEE cockpit. Our hands are tied until we have the tiller head, which I designed, securely in our hands. But the tiller will be a piece of art.

I always wanted to sail a 62' LOA boat with a tiller. I'll get my chance very soon.


----------



## PCP

GBurton said:


> That is more conservative looking than what I envisioned you owning. How much standing room is there in the salon?


Burton, I like many types of boats even if I would not have one that is no fun to sail or slow. Yes I like and do a lot of upwind sailing and that makes me prefer these type of boats instead of boats maximized for downwind sailing. That boat in perfect conditions with a 135% genoa can make 26º off the app wind and at a good speed. You cannot imagine how that boat goes away (beating) from the typical modern cruiser.

The boat has a great interior, I mean very good quality and nice but does not have a decent sea berth (stupid thing I agree). I don't know the standing room but it is much bigger than what it appears (probably 2.0m or more. I am big (1.87m) and I don't have any problem.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Fun and games with the "con" side of the thread today while we fit the tiller to the FRANCIS LEE cockpit. Our hands are tied until we have the tiller head, which I designed, securely in our hands. But the tiller will be a piece of art.
> 
> I always wanted to sail a 62' LOA boat with a tiller. I'll get my chance very soon.


Talking about upwind sailing that one should be a really incredible boat on that particular even if with a considerable heel, out of light winds. But who says heeling is not fun

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Burt:
Me? Angry? Are you a shrink? I think not.

No, I'm not angry. I'm not an angry kind of guy. I am energized and passionate about the work l I have spent my life doing. I have strong opinions. 

I do not suffer fools. You probably noticed that already.

My work?
The results speak for themselves. Can't alter that. It's history. I'd apologize but I like the way it worked out.

I designed the Tayana 37 when I was 27 yeats old. To me it is is an antique with antique performance. Not a bad boat considering it was designed by a kid. Not sure why you insist on using it as a benchmark. I sure as hell do not.


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
If you pm me I'd be happy to send you the entire polar plot with table for the FRANCIS LEE. I think you would be very surprised. You seem to be interested in these technical elements.


----------



## GBurton

bobperry said:


> Burt:
> Me? Angry? Are you a shrink? I think not.
> 
> No, I'm not angry. I'm not an angry kind of guy. I am energized and passionate about the work l I have spent my life doing. I have strong opinions.
> 
> I do not suffer fools. You probably noticed that already.
> 
> My work?
> The results speak for themselves. Can't alter that. It's history. I'd apologize but I like the way it worked out.
> 
> I designed the Tayana 37 when I was 27 yeats old. To me it is is an antique with antique performance. Not a bad boat considering it was designed by a kid. Not sure why you insist on using it as a benchmark. I sure as hell do not.


Must be a bit of alzheimer's creeping in there Bob. I have not mentioned the Tayana 37


----------



## bobperry

No, just got you confused with Oregon. Hard to tell you two apart sometimes.

Dos this look like alzehiemers?


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Origami steel yacht construction - Page 51 - Boat Design Forums
> 
> Here is a link to some intertesting views on Brent's work. It's best to scroll back though the thread to cartch the flavor of the discussion. But I can sum it up,,,ouch!


My critics there were an interesting collection .,only one of whom had ever built or cruised in a steel boat, and only very limited coastal cruising at that. One was a cowboy ( "Never built a steel boat , but I welded up a lot of steel fencepost so I know a lot about steel boat building"). Another was building his first steel boat, an abortion, so he became an instant expert, claiming to know more about steel boat building than some one who had built dozens. He will discover the true skill of his designer when he first sits down on his setee and the side deck whacks him in the back of the head( on a 38 footer!) Many of my clients have upgraded form that design which all have considered a huge improvement. 
Anyone backing me up on that site, including Coast Guard, were all attacked and accused of being me under an alias. Some instantly began receiving threatening emails. Dudly Dix was briefly on that site. He sent me an email saying he was attacked and threatened for having something nice to say about Ganley designs.
The attacks on me became racist, and one white South African stated he was " A racist and proud of it." He also posted on that site a that all torch cuts must be thoroughly ground, then posted on another site that "A good cut needs no grinding." 
Another claiming to be a naval architect stated that shape has no effect on stiffness. ( A square submarine pressure hull, or a square propane bottle is just as strong as a round one? Ya sure) He also claimed that 13 inches of 3/16th plate is not as strong as three 5/16th inch shrouds, and that which has worked for decades without failure , just may fail in its first 4 hours.
Another ,very childish individual claimed that the 1.08 million pounds of tensile strength hi holding the inside of each of my twin keels on was irrelevant. He tried to take his arguments to the origamiboats site, and was quickly laughed off the stage.


----------



## bobperry

Can't say they thought highly of you either Brent. They were brutal. Your rebutals are very predictable by now. Same old theme.

175 degrees pos Rm? That was funny. Confusing VCB and VCG, that was even funnier.

Read it here:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/metal-boat-building/origami-steel-yacht-construction-248-51.html


----------



## smackdaddy

Look Bob, let's be clear. Brent's a builder. Plain and simple. Sure, he's drawn some basic pictures of the tops and sides of a couple of his boats - and he sells those drawings so people can hang them on their walls - but he's no designer. I'm pretty sure he's never claimed to be.

Holding him to that high standard is supremely unfair.


----------



## bobperry

Yeah, I saw some of his drawings on that designer's site. Some guy there dug them up and posted them when he wouldn't. I'll just stay quiet on the quality of his design work. Can't be attacked for what I don't say.


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
I don't know how to do that private chat thing. I'm stupid.

Yes, I will be at CSR at 9:15 am tomorrow. Would you like to meet up there? Kim will be there. There could be some big excitement going on but I'll say no more.

Say no more.

Could be some big time boat fun. Real boat stuff. Not talk boat stuff.


----------



## AlaskaMC

smackdaddy said:


> I'm pretty sure he's never claimed to be.
> 
> Holding him to that high standard is supremely unfair.


Ok, sometimes sarcasm doesn't work online. Are you being ironic here Smack? I mean this is Brent's signature after all. I think he thinks he represents himself as a designer.



> __________________
> Brent Swain, Yacht designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
I meant I would be at CSR on Monday morning. Sorry for that confusion.


----------



## blt2ski

bobperry said:


> Denda:
> I meant I would be at CSR on Monday morning. Sorry for that confusion.


I could pull that off.......hmmmmmm........so what exiting things are going on then?launch, inveiling paint.....hmmmmmm......


----------



## bobperry

Dave:
You never quite can tell. But rumor has it......
I don't want to promise then not deliver.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> If you pm me I'd be happy to send you the entire polar plot with table for the FRANCIS LEE. I think you would be very surprised. You seem to be interested in these technical elements.


Sure, I would be interested...but I don't know if i would be surprised. A boat like that, light, narrow, with a big waterline a considerable draft and an adequate ballast on a bulb has to be very fast, except downwind in what regards going over hull speed.

Please send me that by a PM.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
OK I'll try but I'm not sure how to send an attachment with a PM. I'll take a look.

It will be fun for you to compare this VPP with the one's you already have for more normal designs.


----------



## smackdaddy

AlaskaMC said:


> Ok, sometimes sarcasm doesn't work online. Are you being ironic here Smack? I mean this is Brent's signature after all. I think he thinks he represents himself as a designer.


Oh. I see. Nevermind then.

Brent, dude, what are you thinking?


----------



## djodenda

blt2ski said:


> I could pull that off.......hmmmmmm........so what exiting things are going on then?launch, inveiling paint.....hmmmmmm......


Marty.. I can't ... but you need to go and represent E Dock (and Tony Castro )


----------



## blt2ski

Ok David, 

I'll see what I can do after mowing my first yard about 8 am or there abouts. then head down that way to the east side............

Altho it does look like ol BP is getting Alzheimer's, as he is referring to more than one of us and another person place or thing..........lolol


----------



## blt2ski

ps david,

You should sign up for nfs for the sloop tavern fall regatta saturday, last I looked out of three boats, two Jeanneau's, mine and a sunshine 38, which is a 38' version of mine, also a Castro design. Could be a fun time eh! eheheheheheheh


----------



## bobperry

I need faces.
I am a visual guy.
Never remembered a name.
Never forgot a face.


----------



## blt2ski

David is fuglier than I am, but one will still need blinders if I show up!

That is the truth per this rug rat!

oh, or maybe the cute boat dog Mr Winston!


----------



## Oregonian

Ahoy PCP: I made an error in a statement and I must apologize. In a post on 3-13-13 on the “Full or Fin Keel” thread you referenced the Bavaria brand a number of times and I misinterpreted that as you owning one. Obviously you own a Comet 41. At any rate you gave the following data: 6.5k in apparent winds of 18k @ 28 degrees, in difficult conditions. I stated that those numbers are on a par with an Atkin 36, an 80 year old design. Your latest claim is that your boat outperforms the old design by a “huge margin”. My latest claim: “once again you are guilty of a huge exaggeration”. 
Perry, You say “How do you back up that claim? Ridiculous”. look at the numbers Perry, as claimed by PCP. Are those numbers really that much better than a well sailed Cape George 36 or perhaps the old African Star? Well, I don’t think so.
Also, I only referenced the Tayana 37 because it had been previously referenced on page 162 by JeffH. Like yourself, I do not consider it a “benchmark” design. 
“I can appreciate the modern designs for what they are and, not for what they are not.
For what it is worth, I am not angry but am chilled.
Help yourself to more coolAid Perry.


----------



## SloopJonB

Oregonian said:


> Ahoy PCP: I made an error in a statement and I must apologize. In a post on 3-13-13 on the "Full or Fin Keel" thread you referenced the Bavaria brand a number of times and I misinterpreted that as you owning one. Obviously you own a Comet 41. At any rate you gave the following data: 6.5k in apparent winds of 18k @ 28 degrees, in difficult conditions. I stated that those numbers are on a par with an Atkin 36, an 80 year old design. Your latest claim is that your boat outperforms the old design by a "huge margin". My latest claim: "once again you are guilty of a huge exaggeration".
> Perry, You say "How do you back up that claim? Ridiculous". look at the numbers Perry, as claimed by PCP. Are those numbers really that much better than a well sailed Cape George 36 or perhaps the old African Star? Well, I don't think so.
> Also, I only referenced the Tayana 37 because it had been previously referenced on page 162 by JeffH. Like yourself, I do not consider it a "benchmark" design.
> "I can appreciate the modern designs for what they are and, not for what they are not.
> For what it is worth, I am not angry but am chilled.
> Help yourself to more coolAid Perry.


So noobie, you consider yourself to be more knowledgeable about sailboat performance than RP - one of the worlds preeminent yacht designers with hundreds of designs and thousands of boats to his credit over the past 40 odd years?

How many boats have YOU designed? Lets see some of them.

Oh, none is it?

Maybe it's time for a little introspection on your part.


----------



## PCP

Oregonian said:


> ..Obviously you own a Comet 41. At any rate you gave the following data: 6.5k in apparent winds of 18k @ 28 degrees, in difficult conditions. I stated that those numbers are on a par with an Atkin 36, an 80 year old design. Your latest claim is that your boat outperforms the old design by a "huge margin". My latest claim: "once again you are guilty of a huge exaggeration".
> ....


I don't like to make claims about the sailing performance about my boat and I have done so because you clearly were messing up but the performance and even the boat I own. My boat is not very different in performance from any modern fast performance cruiser with a good upwind potential, we could be talking about a First 40 or a Salona 41 that would have a very similar performance.





Your claim that a 36ft full keel 40 year sailboat could be similar or even close to the one of a modern 41ft cruiser/racer is just ridiculous.

I don't know if a Atkins 36 can make in perfect conditions 6.5K very close to the wind, but with 2m short period waves and 13k of trw that boat would not make 6.5K on those conditions even at a much bigger wind angle.

Is an Atkins 36 able to do 28º off the apparent wind even in perfect conditions? I doubt it. I have not many experience with full keel boats, maybe Bob can tell us if that is possible.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Please que up some background music for this post.
I'd like SOMEWHERE OVER THE RAINBOW please.
Maybe we should go with Izzy's version. That's my fav.

Paulo:

You and I and most of the posters here know this is beyond possible.

No, it's not possible and to even think the two boats would even be close in performance shows a true lack of experience with the range of boats. It's really silly. It's beyond silly.
I can't imagine how Oregon could think that. Has he ever sailed a modern boat?

" 6.5k in apparent winds of 18k @ 28 degrees, in difficult conditions. I stated that those numbers are on a par with an Atkin 36, an 80 year old design."

So if I can read English, Oregon is saying an 80 year old Atkin design can go to weather with an AWA of 28 degrees.

No, not possible. But kind of funny.
AWA 38 degrees might be possible.

Don't like CooAid thanks.


----------



## smackdaddy

Oregonian said:


> For what it is worth, I am not angry but am chilled...


...and wrong.


----------



## Rhys05

Look what came up on Yachtworld today:

2002 Brent Swain 36 ft custom built Sail Boat For Sale -

Someone should go check it out!


----------



## smackdaddy

Rhys05 said:


> Look what came up on Yachtworld today:
> 
> 2002 Brent Swain 36 ft custom built Sail Boat For Sale -
> 
> Someone should go check it out!


Bushnell's Dove IV is actually one of the nicest BS Boats I've ever seen. The interior is very well done (which is rarely the case) and she appears to be immaculately maintained. She's also very well equipped with the expensive "yachty absurdities" Brent likes to continually decry.

What's sad is that this is actually the PERFECT specimen of a BS Yacht. A lot of time and money has gone into it. And yet it can only command an asking price of $56,000 (+$63 for Brent's royalty). Definitely a value problem with these boats.


----------



## Rhys05

smackdaddy said:


> Bushnell's Dove IV is actually one of the nicest BS Boats I've ever seen. The interior is very well done (which is rarely the case) and she appears to be immaculately maintained. She's also very well equipped with the expensive "yachty absurdities" Brent likes to continually decry.
> 
> What's sad is that this is actually the PERFECT specimen of a BS Yacht. A lot of time and money has gone into it. And yet it can only command an asking price of $56,000 (+$63 for Brent's royalty). Definitely a value problem with these boats.


Yep, not a bad looking boat. A disappointing lack of numbers though (weight, sail area, etc.) I definitely agree with the terrible resale value, I would imagine that some of that is due to being from steel and some from having the "home-built" stigma attached to it. Not a boat I would personally be interested in, but could be a very good deal for someone that wants that type of boat.


----------



## blt2ski

Whomever did the interior did an absolute fabulous job on that BS boat. Outside is ok, good boat for around here in the drizzly weather we can get etc.

Marty


----------



## Rhys05

blt2ski said:


> Whomever did the interior did an absolute fabulous job on that BS boat. Outside is ok, good boat for around here in the drizzly weather we can get etc.
> 
> Marty


Agreed. The interior is beautiful, the exterior...well...it certainly has a certain "tugboat-chic." I like my boat to look fast even when at the dock or at anchor...as well as be fast (relatively speaking, we are talking about sailboats here) when under sail.


----------



## GBurton

Paulo, this is a 80 year old 32 foot Atkin design. The AWA is 32 or so in 8k true wind. This particular Atkin design is not able to point as high as the boat Oregonian is talking about, so I have no doubt he is speaking the truth.
It is shocking that people who claim to be so knowledgeable about boats don't know that an 80 year old design can do this.

Have some more koolAid smacky, PCP and the biggest drinker of all, Bob


----------



## smackdaddy

GBurton said:


> Paulo, this is a 80 year old 32 foot Atkin design. The AWA is 32 or so in 8k true wind. This particular Atkin design is not able to point as high as the boat Oregonian is talking about, so I have no doubt he is speaking the truth.
> It is shocking that people who claim to be so knowledgeable about boats don't know that an 80 year old design can do this.
> 
> Have some more koolAid smacky, PCP and the biggest drinker of all, Bob


That's great. But my contention is that when you're talking overall performance, an 80 year old full keel boat is not going to perform like a modern racer/cruiser. PHRF tends to agree.

So take all the photos you want. I'm still not convinced until you're taking every race you're in against Beneteau Firsts, etc. Show me those pickle dishes then we'll talk koolaid.


----------



## blt2ski

I do feel a WELL sailed boat of ANY design, with a great crew will always win the race per say. BUT, depending upon conditions etc. an equal size fin keel will usually beat out the full keel boat for boat! 

One boat mentioned, a cape george 36, raced against on 7 or 8 times, I've only been beaten one time with a boat that is 8' smaller. Even the builder that I know, admits my boat would beat HIS boat! 

This is not to say that there are not some well design full keelers out there, along with duds too. One can say that for fins too!

Marty


----------



## smackdaddy

Rhys05 said:


> Yep, not a bad looking boat. A disappointing lack of numbers though (weight, sail area, etc.) I definitely agree with the terrible resale value, I would imagine that some of that is due to being from steel and some from having the "home-built" stigma attached to it. Not a boat I would personally be interested in, but could be a very good deal for someone that wants that type of boat.


Yeah, for the cruiser wannabe that really wants a steel boat - this would be the way to go. It would be a lot cheaper (with a lot less misery over many years) than actually buying BS' plans and trying to build it yourself.

I'm pretty sure it was this boat that Brent said Bushnell built for $35K all-in (after building several other previously - hence gaining all that experience). So, you're gonna spend AT MINIMUM $35K and several years just getting the thing to float. Why not lowball Dove IV at $45K and save the hassle. Bushnell gets a $10K profit (thanks for the info Brent) - and the cruising wannabe gets one of the best BS Boats on the market for cheap AND in much better shape than even Brent's own boat.


----------



## desert rat

I am going to catch flak for this. How about a two masted junk rig on a slightly larger boat like that?


----------



## smackdaddy

desert rat said:


> I am going to catch flak for this. How about a two masted junk rig on a slightly larger boat like that?


Do a search for "Nothin' Wong". It's a steeler that sometimes Brent claims is his. It has this kind of rig.


----------



## desert rat

would unsupported masts be easier on a steel boat, and with that free board and squarish cabin I think the look of a junk rig would look great. The first unsinkable junk.


----------



## Faster

desert rat said:


> I am going to catch flak for this. How about a two masted junk rig on a slightly larger boat like that?


Allen Farrell, a fairly well known BC artist and boat builder, (but in wood, not steel) was known for his junk rigs among others..

a snippet:

Sailing Back In Time: Allen Farrell, dedicated to Millie Illin


----------



## PCP

GBurton said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paulo, this is a 80 year old 32 foot Atkin design. The AWA is 32 or so in 8k true wind. This particular Atkin design is not able to point as high as the boat Oregonian is talking about, so I have no doubt he is speaking the truth.
> It is shocking that people who claim to be so knowledgeable about boats don't know that an 80 year old design can do this.


For 13k app wind with that angle and speed the true wind speed is about 8.5k. At that wind angle and conditions my boat (and 40 ft performance boats in general) would be doing 7.0K or maybe a bit over. I make the speed and angle that you are talking about with approximately 5K of true wind.

You forget that I was talking about sailing against 2.0m short period waves and with 8.5K of wind you are talking about flat or almost flat sea. Do you know the importance that has on a boat speed going against waves due to wave drag? For managing that I had full sails out (jib and main) on a boat that has a very big SA/D. That means a very hard motion and a huge sail power involved. Those old boats simply don't have the power to do this, at least with 13K of TRW.

Anyway even so the values you show in what regards TRW (without waves) are more than 10º worse than the values I was talking about even sailing against a very nasty sea. I was doing 41.9º to the true wind and you 54.4º. That is a HUGE difference considering that even so I was going faster. Both things put together, the much better angle and the much superior speed will mean that in very little time you will be a very small point on the horizon, I mean beating directly against the wind.



GBurton said:


> ...
> Have some more koolAid smacky, PCP and the biggest drinker of all, Bob


Can you explain what you mean with this:"KoolAid"? "the biggest drinker of all, Bob"? What drinking has to do with this? or you mean that we are all drunk?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Faster

PCP said:


> Can you explain what you mean with this:"KoolAid"? "the biggest drinker of all, Bob"? What drinking has to do with this? or you mean that we are all drunk?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo.. sent you a PM


----------



## Jaramaz

Oh, haven't I seen this before: photo of some displays, indicting some extra performance. The same old stories - we did xx knots, you must believe it. 

Either you have abslute calibrated instruments (which a normal boat owner only can dream of) and full knowledge and documenation of the environment (which nobody really does), or you test your boat in a race towards others. 

Of course also a xx year old boat can move! In my area we have full knowledge, some of the old ones are fast (but then they are looong as well). 
Usually I beat a 16++ meter 75 sqm (standard class here) with my 40 ft. Not difficult. 

It would be very strange if a modern boat wouldn't be better than an old one. Competition leads to selection, simple.

/J


----------



## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> That's great. But my contention is that when you're talking overall performance, an 80 year old full keel boat is not going to perform like a modern racer/cruiser. PHRF tends to agree.
> 
> So take all the photos you want. I'm still not convinced until you're taking every race you're in against Beneteau Firsts, etc. Show me those pickle dishes then we'll talk koolaid.


I suspect that someone has never heard the term "calibration" in reference to instruments.

My friends current version Hunter 38 can't get closer than 60 degrees - according to the wind instrument - yet it manages a PHRF around 105.


----------



## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> Yeah, for the cruiser wannabe that really wants a steel boat - this would be the way to go. It would be a lot cheaper (with a lot less misery over many years) than actually buying BS' plans and trying to build it yourself.
> 
> I'm pretty sure it was this boat that Brent said Bushnell built for $35K all-in (after building several other previously - hence gaining all that experience). So, you're gonna spend AT MINIMUM $35K and several years just getting the thing to float. Why not lowball Dove IV at $45K and save the hassle. Bushnell gets a $10K profit (thanks for the info Brent) - and the cruising wannabe gets one of the best BS Boats on the market for cheap AND in much better shape than even Brent's own boat.


Having spent many months deep in the local boat market recently I have very serious doubts that boat will fetch anything remotely like those numbers.

Maybe 1/2, because that boat has some history. For example there are currently several Endurance 35's for sale starting in the $20's asking.


----------



## JomsViking

PCP said:


> For 13k app wind with that angle and speed the true wind speed is about 8.5k. At that wind angle and conditions my boat (and 40 ft performance boats in general) would be doing 7.0K or maybe a bit over. I make the speed and angle that you are talking about with approximately 5K of true wind.
> 
> You forget that I was talking about sailing against 2.0m short period waves and with 8.5K of wind you are talking about flat or almost flat sea. Do you know the importance that has on a boat speed going against waves due to wave drag? For managing that I had full sails out (jib and main) on a boat that has a very big SA/D. That means a very hard motion and a huge sail power involved. Those old boats simply don't have the power to do this, at least with 13K of TRW.
> 
> Anyway even so the values you show in what regards TRW (without waves) are more than 10º worse than the values I was talking about even sailing against a very nasty sea. I was doing 41.9º to the true wind and you 54.4º. That is a HUGE difference considering that even so I was going faster. Both things put together, the much better angle and the much superior speed will mean that in very little time you will be a very small point on the horizon, I mean beating directly against the wind.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Thanks, although we've seen many times in this (and other threads) that facts and numbers doesn't matter for some 
Another example I like to use is the die-hard folkboat owners here (we have many) they constantly claim that their boat is superior, but still they come in hours later tired and wet. I love the folkboat but even in the H-boat we're able to sail figure eights around it most of the time.
So enjoy your boat (mine is from the seventies and are slower than the newer desings, but way faster than any long keeler from the same period.

/Joms


----------



## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> Floyd:
> I am not "all knowing".
> I think I can speak for most of us here: WE ARE NOT ALL KNOWING.
> You are being an insulting person again. Is this a habit with you? If not I think you may have a problem with words. You do come off kind of smarmy. Yeah, smarmy is the correct word.
> 
> Origami steel yacht construction - Page 51 - Boat Design Forums


Bob, that comment was in an old post and was in response to your demeaning attitude toward me. No offense was taken and I hope non given.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Burt:
> Me? Angry? Are you a shrink? I think not.
> 
> No, I'm not angry. I'm not an angry kind of guy. I am energized and passionate about the work l I have spent my life doing. I have strong opinions.
> 
> I do not suffer fools. You probably noticed that already.
> 
> My work?
> The results speak for themselves. Can't alter that. It's history. I'd apologize but I like the way it worked out.
> 
> I designed the Tayana 37 when I was 27 yeats old. To me it is is an antique with antique performance. Not a bad boat considering it was designed by a kid. Not sure why you insist on using it as a benchmark. I sure as hell do not.


 Maybe he designed the aluminum boat I mentioned when he was even younger, which is why he denies having designed it. That's an easy way out for any budding designer who designs a lemon.
If you see the tendency in his posts you will conclude that 
Bob, the self certified shrink ,defines "angry" as anyone who disagrees with him. According to him, if you were not angry, you would agree with everything he says. You will see that he has applied that diagnosis to every thing I have posted, which didn't agree with his opinion


----------



## Brent Swain

PCP said:


> I guess I understand what you are trying to say but you are saying it the wrong way. Has Bob pointed out on boats with a similar water-plane a given load will have the same effect in what regards inches of immersion and that has nothing to do with the weight of the boats... but if a boat weights twice the weight of another those inches are a much smaller proportion regarding the total immersed area, close to 50%, and that will translate in a bigger tolerance in what regards that load. I mean the boat will be less affected by that load.
> 
> For instance imagine a very light carbon racer that has the same waterplane of an heavy steel voyage boat that weights 7 times more (and has a hugely bigger immersed area).
> 
> Both boats will be immersed the same number of inches by the same big load, let's say half the weight of the racing boat but half of the weight of the racing boat is just 1/14 times of the weight of the steel boat and while the racer will be very sluggish carrying a load that corresponds to half of its weight (and represent a big perceptual amount of his immersed surface) the heavy still boat will have perceptually a small increase in his total immersed area, one that will corresponds to 1/14 of its own weight.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


You are right, that was a typo or bad choice of words. Bob never makes typos? The pounds per inch immersion rate is exactly the same for a given waterline beam and length, regardless of displacement. I use the chart out of Skenes elements of yacht design. However, the percentage of increase in total displacement 1,000- lbs gives you us much higher in a light displacement hull than in a heavy displacement hull, as is the change in performance.


----------



## bobperry

"You are right, that was a typo or bad choice of words."
Bad choice of words? Try JUST PLAIN WRONG! Nice weaseling effort though.

"I use the chart out of Skenes elements of yacht design. However, the percentage of increase in total displacement 1,000- lbs gives you us much higher in a light displacement hull than in a heavy displacement hull, as is the change in performance. "

What is this? English as a second language?
You use the nomograph in Skene's? Why not calculate it yourself and get some 
accuracy? That's what I do. The nomograph is a very general estimate and far out of date.


No Brent I just plain never did design this imaginary alu 28'er you keep bringing up. You lie over and over. I do not dis-own my designs. I have no need to. I like my old work. I am proud of it.

As for your "shrink" post, I can't make heads or tails as to what you are trying to say. It's unintelligible.

Just got back from giving a talk to the PNW CCA meeting. The PNW Chapter is the biggest in the US. I was expecting 20 people but we must have had at least 60. I had Kim and Doug Fryer (NIGHT RUNNER) with me. I prefer to let them talk while I stand to the side smile, and nod knowingly.

Of course I was feeling pretty darn good. It's nice to have two very appreciative owners at your side when giving a presentation like this.

And,,,, here's the big one:
Kim and I had just come from a quick splash of the FRANCIS LEE. Kim will probably post some pics later. The yard wanted to stick it in the water " just to check". I wasn't worried but you are always concerned when a new boat is launched. The FRANCIS LEE is dead on it's lines and at this stage sans rig, batteries and liquids a bit over a 1,200 lbs. LIGHT! We are going to be very close to our designed weight. Trim is a non issue. It spot on.

So I had a very good morning today.


----------



## Brent Swain

Brent Swain said:


> My critics there were an interesting collection .,only one of whom had ever built or cruised in a steel boat, and only very limited coastal cruising at that. One was a cowboy ( "Never built a steel boat , but I welded up a lot of steel fencepost so I know a lot about steel boat building"). Another was building his first steel boat, an abortion, so he became an instant expert, claiming to know more about steel boat building than some one who had built dozens. When he put a plywood cabin on a steel boat I resisted the urge to suggest he use something lighter and less prone rot, or that he use a stainless flange to bolt it down on. (Something I have recently done, with excellent results). When he had anchor locker problems I resisted the urge to offer a very simple solution. As he has attacked every suggestion I made ,let him learn the hard way ( at great expense). He will discover the true skill of his designer when he first sits down on his setee and the side deck whacks him in the back of the head( on a 38 footer!) Many of my clients have upgraded to my boats from that design, an upgrade which all have considered a huge improvement.
> Anyone backing me up on that site, including Coast Guard, were all attacked and accused of being me under an alias. Some instantly began receiving threatening emails. Dudly Dix was briefly on that site. He sent me an email saying he was attacked and threatened for having something nice to say about Ganley designs. I wonder how many others, with actual hands on experience, have been driven away by their adolescent jeering. There are not many there who have any significant experience in small steel boat building or design .
> The attacks on me became racist, and one white South African stated he was " A racist and proud of it." He also posted on that site a that all torch cuts must be thoroughly ground, then posted on another site that "A good cut needs no grinding."
> Another , claiming to be a naval architect, stated that shape has no effect on stiffness. ( A square submarine pressure hull, or a square propane bottle is just as strong as a round one? Ya sure) He also claimed that 13 inches of 3/16th plate is not as strong as three 5/16th inch shrouds, and that which has worked for decades without failure , just may fail in its first 4 hours.
> Another ,very childish individual claimed that the 1.08 million pounds of tensile strength hi holding the inside of each of my twin keels on was irrelevant. He tried to take his arguments to the origamiboats site, and was quickly laughed off the stage.


I was attacked for suggesting that a simple stainless sch 40 pipe nipple welded in, for thru hulls has given me and anyone else I know, zero problems in over 40 years. They stated that a plastic thru hull is stronger and safer. Then they suggested a complex arrangement of mild steel flanges and bolts with, zero access behind the flanges and bolts for maintenance.

People going to that site with a simple question, have instantly been jeered at and attacked, for not already having all the answers ( such as they claim to have)

Thus a gang of jeering ,very inexperienced luddites with nearly zero experience on the subject at hand, have wrecked that site, in order to give themselves the last word on any subject which comes up.
It had huge potential as a source of information, but has been sabotaged into uselessness.
Some claim that this is being done to an increasing number of sites.


----------



## desert rat

From previous posts the splash is what i was expecting. Waiting impatiently for the pictures. Now I will; have to buy a digital camera to take pictures of our rivers and lakes here in New Mexico. Where is the water?


----------



## Brent Swain

Bob. There is no such thing as a boat which has been cruised in and lived aboard for decades being 'Right on its lines" or that exactly where any given owners boat is going to float once he has lived aboard for a while can be predicted. That's as naïve as Skenes suggesting that the weight of a galley pump and is distance from LCB is in any way relevant on a cruising boat ,or suggesting a that a person's total weight of personal effects is around 200lbs. When you talk about calculating such foolishness for "Accuracy" you live in a fantasy world.
Bob, I notice that whenever I get the chance to get online, your response to my post is almost instant, suggesting you have nothing better to do than sit in front of a computer all day. As I am doing much of the time what you are giving advice on but rarely doing, cruising, I often go days without the chance to respond . That is what happened on that other site. There is no way someone who is too busy cruising and living life can respond to everything that a half dozen people without a life beyond the internet with nothing better to do than attack , any and every post someone makes. Politicians have discovered that a lie ,if repeated enough, eventually gets accepted as truth, no matter how obviously false it is. Some are using that tactic on the internet , quickly reducing its usefulness.
I have received a lot of thanks for my posts, in personal emails, by people who know if they make it on a chatline, they will be attacked and possibly threatened . Many of them have ended up buying books and plans from me.
You say you use the chatlines as a type of social life. Given the amount of free time you obviously have, it doesn't look like clients are beating a well worn pathway to your door. No big surprise, given that the market is flooded to overflowing with what you offer.
For easily built small steel sailboats, I don't have much competition, and have been as busy as ever ,thru all the critical debates of my methods, with a spike in interest and orders for books and plans during the boat design debates. Those I have handed my job over to, have had to go into hiding, to get a break from all the work that is being offered to them.

Condolences for the death of your relevance.


----------



## bobperry

"Thus a gang of jeering ,very inexperienced luddites "

Really, I thought several of them showed an understanding of yacht design considerably more advanced than what you show. When it came to the technical side of yacht design they ate your lunch. They really made you look silly I'm afraid.

There is no need for this. Just quit attacking everyone who has a different opinion of what makes a good boat. Being honest would help too. People will, leave you the room to enjoy your own steel boats. I sure don't have any problem with that. I applaud you for filling that niche. But your constant defensive mode of attack when someone mentions a good grp boat is tiresome and foolish.

FRANCIS LEE is a marvelous, unusual and unique yacht. It is not for everyone. But if you don't like it you are not WRONG. You just have a different opinion of what makes a good boat for you. That attitude has kept me in business for over 35 years. Bring on the diversity and let me have a whack at all those different designs. I love working along the edges of all the available types.


----------



## bobperry

"Condolences for the death of your relevance. "

You're getting desperate again Brent. 
Hate? What's with it?
How about this Brent? Just post a few pics of your boats and people here can draw their own conclusions. I see no purpose in ad nauseum propogating personal attacks that have nothing to do with boats.

"Condolences for the death of your relevance. "
Really Brent. That is sad and nothing to do with boats.
The come back is so obvious I won't say it.

On a far brighter note:
Blt2ski was there this morning along with a couple Kiwi pals of kim's and mine and the infamnous Aarne the Hammer. The boat is attracting some attention.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Bob, I notice that whenever I get the chance to get online, your response to my post is almost instant, suggesting you have nothing better to do than sit in front of a computer all day.


I have found this to be a fairly common form of attack on the Net. It has been directed at me on occasion.

Have these people never head of multiple windows or multitasking?


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Politicians have discovered that a lie ,if repeated enough, eventually gets accepted as truth, no matter how obviously false it is. Some are using that tactic on the internet , quickly reducing its usefulness.


Yeah, I'd say you've got that tactic down cold.

BS Yachts Marketing Program



Brent Swain said:


> Condolences for the death of your relevance.


This has to be the funniest most ironic set of words on the entire internet. Brent Swain - you have now reached the end of the tiny bit of credibility you had left.

Congratulations. Now have some ice cream and go cruising.


----------



## blt2ski

I had a good time for the 5 or 10 min I was down there this morning. I had not met Bob before. A very quite talker. Not good for those of us that need HA's and do not bring them! any way, Me thinks his pooch and Mr Winston would have a very playful time if they ever meet!

I also can not help but think I have run into Kim before. just need to remember where, with out pulling a brain electron! 

Marty


----------



## kimbottles

blt2ski said:


> I had a good time for the 5 or 10 min I was down there this morning. I had not met Bob before. A very quite talker. Not good for those of us that need HA's and do not bring them! any way, Me thinks his pooch and Mr Winston would have a very playful time if they ever meet!
> 
> I also can not help but think I have run into Kim before. just need to remember where, with out pulling a brain electron!
> 
> Marty


Ham Radio?? de K7IM


----------



## blt2ski

No, do not do ham radio. May have been at an after race party.....or a YC event somewhere...........


----------



## kimbottles

blt2ski said:


> No, do not do ham radio. May have been at an after race party.....or a YC event somewhere...........


I pretty much do not do parties much....we are pretty boring people here.

(But lots of bicycle racing in the past.)


----------



## blt2ski

WHo knows, could have been on a dock after a race or equal too. Or one of them you have twin somewhere, or at a store did not know it..............

no bicycle racing for me. Lots of snow skiing........


----------



## desert rat

in my youth downhill or giant slolm, not competition Sandia.


----------



## tommays

We are now pretty much in

*I know you are but what am I*

Mode


----------



## bobperry

Here are some iphone shots taken of the splash yesterday.


----------



## tommays

Looks very nice Bob 

The narrow beam does make it hard to see what a large boat it is


----------



## PCP

Brent Swain said:


> ... Given the amount of free time you obviously have, it doesn't look like clients are beating a well worn pathway to your door. No big surprise, given that the market is flooded to overflowing with what you offer.
> For easily built small steel sailboats, I don't have much competition, and have been as busy as ever ,thru all the critical debates of my methods, with a spike in interest and orders for books and plans during the boat design debates. Those I have handed my job over to, have had to go into hiding, *to get a break from all the work that is being offered to them*.
> 
> Condolences for the death of your relevance.


We know what is Bob doing presently, he is following the construction of his last design and he has posted plenty of photos of it.

For what you say even if you are cruising now (by the way where are you cruising?) you have certainly lots of work waiting for you and some new projects to start. If you want to be credible please talk to us about those projects and when you come back (when do you restart working again?) please post some information about those projects. We, or at least some here, would be interested in having a look.

Best regards and fair winds.

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Tom:
Exactly. When you get either bow or stern on with the boat it is kind of odd because the boat has less beam than many modern 30'ers. But even yesterday, out of the shed, the boat is still in slings and you cannot get a clear view of the uninterupted hull. We will have to be patient and wait about two more weeks I suspect.

Kim and I joke about being overtaken by FANCIS LEE. It's going to look like a really fast 30'er coming up on yout stern.

I'm also anxious to see the cove stripe on the boat. We are bringing in a specialist Dr. of stripology for this job.

Paulo:
Technical files sent vie email this morning. Enjoy.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> ...
> 
> Paulo:
> Technical files sent vie email this morning. Enjoy.


Disregard the last PM. I have received the files. Thanks!

Regards

Paulo


----------



## djodenda

Congratulations to Bob and Kim. Glad you got to meet Mr. Winston. Everybody likes Mr. Winston.


----------



## bobperry

Dave:
Mr. Winston was not there. Had he been I think he and Ruby would have gone nuts together. Ruby is very playful.


----------



## blt2ski

bobperry said:


> Dave:
> Mr. Winston was not there. Had he been I think he and Ruby would have gone nuts together. Ruby is very playful.


I am sure Mr Winston would have LUVED to play with Ruby! I could see them having a ball somewhere!

I do apologize for not bringing the eye blinders!

David, are you signed up for the styc fall regatta this weekend? two castro boats in nfs! you could make it 3 of 6! If not, I may have to sick mr winston on your. You know that would be a LONG slow painful death by licking!


----------



## bfloyd4445

desert rat said:


> From previous posts the splash is what i was expecting. Waiting impatiently for the pictures. Now I will; have to buy a digital camera to take pictures of our rivers and lakes here in New Mexico. Where is the water?


stolen and then sold by water contractors likely like in california


----------



## bobperry

Ratster:
Are you asking where we splashed the FRANCIS LEE?
That would be Salmon Bay, fresh water, just east of the Hiram Chittendon Locks in Seattle. Actually it's Ballard.

Thanks for asking that Rat. It reminded me that we splashed the boat in fresh water. All my calculations (yes I do calculate) are done for salt water. So if I adjust for the density of fresh water it means that had we floated the boat in salt water we would have floated .246205" higher!
We are 449.9 lbs. lighter than I thought. Lighter is always good.

Back in the old days under the IOR, displacement was taken as a function of hull depths at various points and of course a length factor. Freeboards were taken at the hull depth stations in order to work out the immersed depth. Boats were often taken into fresh water for these measurements to be taken so the boat would float "heavier".


----------



## tdw

Brent Swain said:


> Condolences for the death of your relevance.


Brent,
Please heed my warning. I know the last time you were sent packing your absence was bemoaned, primarily by a few who found you a convenient whipping post but even so your usefulness is limited. Enough with the outright abuse. 
Andrew B


----------



## bobperry

Your Fuzzness:
I wasn't bothered by a comment like that coming from Brent. Like I said, the comeback was so obvious that I didn't feel the need to say it.

The converstion about yacht design is over.


----------



## PCP

Brent Swain said:


> You are right, that was a typo or bad choice of words. Bob never makes typos? The pounds per inch immersion rate is exactly the same for a given waterline beam and length, regardless of displacement. I use the chart out of Skenes elements of yacht design. However, the percentage of increase in total displacement 1,000- lbs gives you us much higher in a light displacement hull than in a heavy displacement hull, as is the change in performance.


Yes, I had understood what you mean notwithstanding you talking in absolute terms while you should be talking in perceptual terms regarding boat displacement.

What pisses most is your fanatical views about steel to be the most appropriate material to build almost all types of sailboats while it seems to me and to the market that it is not the case and I don't buy that talk about sailors not knowing what they want. They know and the market is a response to that and not opposite way.

On the market the ones that want a steel boat are so few that with an American exception you have no production boats made of steel and even in what regards the American one (I don't remember the name) I guess that call it production boat makes not much sense given the number of boats build each year.

That does not mean that some sailors would not value so much the advantages of steel has that want their boats made of steel, there is even one small segment of the market were almost all boats are made of steel. It is so small that it does not justifies a production boat. I am talking about expedition boats, specially the ones designed for high latitudes.

Here you have some examples:





















But even if the superior strength and facility in what regards repairs makes the steel the best choice when it regards extreme conditions, specially with ice, danger of grounding or material abuse involved, even "normal" voyage boats today chose as choice material aluminium and the demand is so significant that there are several shipyards making production aluminium sailboats. They are the most common choice even when high latitudes are involved if they are not the main sailing grounds of those boats. There are also many production fiberglass and other material sailboats designed with voyage in mind, voyage that does not involve or extreme latitudes or ice travelling.

That does not mean that a steel boat is not the ideal boat to someone, even if he does not voyage, just happens that perceptually the ones that prefer that choice (and their advantages over the disadvantages) , even for voyaging, are very few.

On this thread the last (many) pages have been out of subject and I don't think some more useful information can come out of it. Steel boats on other hand, even if marginal to the market are an interesting topic so why you don't open a thread about steel boats where we could talk about different designs and designers that work, design and make today steel sailboats? I think that would be an interesting information to this forum and to the naval community. I will post there regarding the knowledge I have (not much) regarding designers that work in steel.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bfloyd4445

thanks for posting the videos and information. I have learned lots from this thread

Britt


----------



## bobperry

Speaking of metal boats. Here is a Dorade vent with an unusual feature that I designed for the 50'er YONI. This is one of the last hand drawn details I did. I look back at my old drawings and I have to admite, I was pretty darn good at it. Thgis drawing is pencil and ink on mylar.

I know for a lot of people obsessing over nice drawings is seen to be silly. But I worked hard to hone my craft and the best way to sell a good idea is to present it with a great drawing. This is a simple little drawing, actually 6" =12" scale, but it shows some vitality and understanding.


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## tdw

Give me some feedback here. 

Do we close this thread (it will still be visible but read only) and start a couple of new ones, one to cover steel boats and another on general ... or does Paulo's Interesting thread already cover general boat design ? 

I think there are plenty of us here that are well interested in seeing how BP's projects are progressing. 

Thoughts ?


----------



## djodenda

There's lots of useful information here, surrounded by friendly banter, and some less than friendly interactions.

I would encourage those who are providing the useful information to start new threads, and let this one continue rollicking along, until it dies on its own.

I have been guilty of some of the thread hijacking, but it was long gone before I did.

I should have taken Monday off and watched Kim's boat launch. That would have been beyond cool.


----------



## Faster

Well it has long since departed from the original OP topic, hasn't it?

I'd think a Sliver thread would be well received, and it would seem the steel debate has run its course. As entertaining as the BrentBash has been, it too has perhaps run its time (jmo)


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## bobperry

The thread is called "pros and cons". Considering the "pros" included attacking any grp boat, their owner, their designer and in a new SN low, eventually one designer's wife, it seemed fitting to me to represent the "cons" side. Somebody had to.

I did not start the attack. I simply chose to defend grp boats and their owners. I owe my livelyhood to those people. Then the attacks got very personal. That was bizarre and had zero to do with yachts and yacht building or design. I came here to talk about boats. Simple as that.

Do what you like with the thread. On other threads the quality of posts is high and the mood congenial. I like that. I can do that.

But if there is more BS attacks posted count on it. I will go on the counter attack.

I do not see the "argument". Almost all of us just like all kinds of boats. Isn't that good enough?


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## bobperry

If you want I can start a Sliver thread on it's own.


----------



## Martinjf

As was has been famously said:

“Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.” 
― Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows 

I would love to see how BP projects go. What is happening to the PerryPeaPod? Any update on that wonderfull looking 61 foot that PS is building?


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## djodenda

I think it would be great if Bob would start a Sliver thread.
I also agree with Bob that Brent's attacks were out of line, and that it was appropriate of Bob to answer them. 

It's unfortunate that Brent has tarnished his reputation in that manner on this and other forums. I think he has useful information to share.

I hope Bob starts other threads. I also hope that Brent contributes in a helpful manner when it is appropriate.


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## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Almost all of us just like all kinds of boats. Isn't that good enough?


^^^This.

What almost all of us DON'T like is some pompously deluded dude who bashes everything but HIS OWN type of boat and HIS WAYS of thinking. That kind of stupidity always deserves a good smacking.


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## PCP

tdw said:


> Give me some feedback here.
> 
> Do we close this thread (it will still be visible but read only) and start a couple of new ones, one to cover steel boats and another on general ... or does Paulo's Interesting thread already cover general boat design ?
> 
> I think there are plenty of us here that are well interested in seeing how BP's projects are progressing.
> 
> Thoughts ?


No, I do not cover steel boats on my thread. There are a small market for them and some designers that are specialized on them. I think it would be interesting to have a thread only about steel boats. I will be glad to contribute.

Regards

Paulo


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## tdw

Bob ... please yes start a Sliver thread and if you like a PS thread as well. 

Hey has Paul's (Nessun Dorma) boat been named yet ?


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## smackdaddy

Don't close it. There's no reason to.

It's a very valuable conversation and has generated a tremendous amount of interest. Some might view the squabbles herein as pure personality issues - but they're not. Not by any means. The conversation really has been about the material of steel and the extending mindset of that approach (origami, fear, self-sufficiency, etc.) from the beginning. So I don't even see this thread as drifting off its original topic for the most part (spousal abuse notwithstanding).

As for the pros and cons of steel, I feel pretty comfortable that most of Brent's ludicrous claims have been countered very well in this thread. He can't hide anymore - because his own words have done him in.

Apart from that BS, steel as a boat material choice (whether building or buying) has been shown to be just another option with its pros and cons by some very capable yacht designers such as Bob, Jeff, and others. This is very, very productive.

Now that the crap is cleaned up, it's up to interested parties to join the conversation and bring new questions and perspectives. Closing the thread would kill this for no good reason.


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## bobperry

Let it go We fought this hard to have it "cleaned up"?. Thread hijacking is fun. It is the way people talk. Why can't we talk about a lot of boats here?

We could change the thread name to "boat talk". That covers it.
I don't need no specific thread.
Jeezuz, damn political correctness.


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## tdw

PCP said:


> No, I do not cover steel boats on my thread. There are a small market for them and some designers that are specialized on them. I think it would be interesting to have a thread only about steel boats. I will be glad to contribute.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Misunderstanding Paulo .... I was not asking you to cover steel boats.

Hell, I'd be quite happy for there to be a steel boat thread, a timber boat thread, an Interesting Sailboat thread and a Bob Perry thread. All in all how good would it be if we could convince other designers to post about their own work in the same generous manner that BP does ?

Damn it all Brent could prattle on all he wants about Origami, maybe we could even convince other steel boat designers to contribute. How good would that be ?


----------



## smackdaddy

tdw said:


> Damn it all Brent could prattle on all he wants about Origami, maybe we could even convince other steel boat designers to contribute. How good would that be ?


THAT would be AWESOME! I would LOVE to hear about steel boat design from designers that don't suffer from such a huge inferiority complex. Just, as Bob said, guys that love boats - whatever form they take.


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## bobperry

Hard reality is that other steel boat designers like Yves- Marie Tanton. my friend, do not want to be associated with Brent.

You do not want to hear that. But it is true.


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## blt2ski

bobperry said:


> Hard reality is that other steel boat designers like Yves- Marie Tanton. my friend, do not want to be associated with Brent.
> 
> You do not want to hear that. But it is true.


Like ALL things big and small, all industries have a person some do not want to be associated with, others try like hell to be associated with someone. Look at the dingalings on the supposed right coast! The idiots that are trying to shut us down, have brought the others down to there level!

Just my 02 of whatever monetary funds need to be used today!

Marty


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## bobperry

Relax Marty. It's Friday.


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## PCP

tdw said:


> Misunderstanding Paulo .... I was not asking you to cover steel boats.
> 
> Hell, I'd be quite happy for there to be a steel boat thread,...
> 
> Damn it all Brent could prattle on all he wants about Origami, maybe we could even convince other steel boat designers to contribute. How good would that be ?


Neither I was saying so at least on the interesting boat thread. I said I was happy to contribute as a poster on a steel boat thread. I find it interesting. Contrary to wood it seems that there are several members that are interested in having steel boats.

That seems to me a great idea.

Regards

Paulo


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## djodenda

bobperry said:


> Relax Marty. It's Friday.


And we are going sailing TOMORROW, (Saturday) on my buddy's 1D35 on Saturday, out of Everett.

It's a real hoot to sail.

Anybody else want to come?

David


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## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> Hard reality is that other steel boat designers like Yves- Marie Tanton. my friend, do not want to be associated with Brent.
> 
> You do not want to hear that. But it is true.


Years ago, Yves-Marie Tanton used to be a contributer here. Probably 10 or so years ago, he and I discussed his 'Steelstar' design, which was a pretty interesting design in a whole lot of ways. The design intent was to produce a high-performance steel design, and in that regard, conceptually it shows one approach. I suspect that the design would be somewhat different if done today.

(I hope that Mr. Tanton does not object to me showing the thumbnail of his work below.)



Jeff


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## Martinjf

Okay I am mostly a lurker who sailed a lot growing up in many different kinds of boats who hopes to get back to sailing in a year or so. A lot has changed since I last owned a big boat (in 1994) and since then I have only chartered a few big boats.

I will probably never own a BP boat, however one of the reasons I started cruising and gave up dingy racing (besides the wife and kids!) was reading about the adventures folks were having in boats like the Valiant 40 (another boat I lusted after, in addition to a PS37), reading about BPs work as it happens with his clients is a privilege. Many people on this thread (e.g., Paulo, Jeff H, Steve...) contribute their knowledge and experience making this thread very enjoyable; please keep it up either here or on other threads. There are two reads I have been reading for months now this and Interesting Sailboats and that seems good enough.

Regarding Brent, he adds a lot of color to these threads with his views and the responses that he solicits from the truly knowledgeable have certainly increased my understanding and have been equally useful to other folks. So Brent, just calm down and we can all learn and have fun.


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## bfloyd4445

well spoken Bob


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## bobperry

Damn it!
It's Friday night and I miss Brent.


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## blt2ski

bobperry said:


> Damn it!
> It's Friday night and I miss Brent.


yeah,. I come home from a long day driving.........edmonds to seattle, into a van, to tacoma, bremerton PT, PA,, poulsbo and Bainbridge to seattle, Home to edmonds. Spouse is no where to be found, nor is mr winston to sit on my lap! cats are here. uke

Yes, a race tomorrow, but david is going out on a 1d tomorrow, probably will not be a lot o winds, but enough.........

oh yeah, I'm a blinken year older at 1358 today!

So what wa/is good about today?!?!?!?! oh yeah....as the kool aid man come bashing out of a wall.......I woke up! hopefully I wake up tomorrow too eh!!

Bob, are you doing the race your house race tomorrow? could be a sloow one, altho not as slow as foulweather bluff a couple of weeks ago.

Marty


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## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> My critics there were an interesting collection .,only one of whom had ever built or cruised in a steel boat, and only very limited coastal cruising at that. One was a cowboy ( "Never built a steel boat , but I welded up a lot of steel fencepost so I know a lot about steel boat building"). Another was building his first steel boat, an abortion, so he became an instant expert, claiming to know more about steel boat building than some one who had built dozens. He will discover the true skill of his designer when he first sits down on his setee and the side deck whacks him in the back of the head( on a 38 footer!) Many of my clients have upgraded form that design which all have considered a huge improvement.
> Anyone backing me up on that site, including Coast Guard, were all attacked and accused of being me under an alias. Some instantly began receiving threatening emails. Dudly Dix was briefly on that site. He sent me an email saying he was attacked and threatened for having something nice to say about Ganley designs.
> The attacks on me became racist, and one white South African stated he was " A racist and proud of it." He also posted on that site a that all torch cuts must be thoroughly ground, then posted on another site that "A good cut needs no grinding."
> Another claiming to be a naval architect stated that shape has no effect on stiffness. ( A square submarine pressure hull, or a square propane bottle is just as strong as a round one? Ya sure) He also claimed that 13 inches of 3/16th plate is not as strong as three 5/16th inch shrouds, and that which has worked for decades without failure , just may fail in its first 4 hours.
> Another ,very childish individual claimed that the 1.08 million pounds of tensile strength hi holding the inside of each of my twin keels on was irrelevant. He tried to take his arguments to the origamiboats site, and was quickly laughed off the stage.


Sad to see so much downright dishonesty. Hard to imagine that someone could expect that it would go unnoticed. And all about info that's on public record which is a bit dumb.

I'm the one Brent refers to as "claiming to be a Naval Architect" 
I'm a PEng who works as a prof marine engineer. The anecdote above attributed to me is typical of Brent. It's also a complete distortion. I didn't make the claim about a square pressure hull. Nor anything about "13 inches of steel plate......." In fact what usually happens is that Brent makes it up something silly, attributes it someone, posts several times that they said it, then goes on to quote it on another forum.

Wynand the boilermaker and professional steel boatbuilder, who built such great examples of Dudly Dix's designs, didn't say he was a racist and proud of it. That's a bit of a sick statement. Nor were there any racist attacks on Brent. Everyone on BDnet treated him fairly, he just made a complete fool of himself. Again and Again. I like the one about the coastguard backing you (Brent) on that site, and then being attacked, that's getting creative beyond even a hint of distorted truth.

Nothing Brent posts can be taken as reality without checking the facts first but I guess everyone knows that by now. I think this spiel of Brent's will make a few people angry since it's quite objectionable.

PS, Sorry my first post is a bit of a rant


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## PDW

MikeJohns said:


> Nothing Brent posts can be taken as reality without checking the facts first but I guess everyone knows that by now. I think this spiel of Brent's will make a few people angry since it's quite objectionable.


As one of the other participants on bd.net, I'd have to say I'm more amused than anything else.

One of the things I've had a wonderful laugh about at Brent's expense is his utterly ludicrous claim that his steel 31' sailboat can break through 5" thick ice.

Only if dropped from a substantial height....

Brent is a fantasist who actually seems to believe his own BS. He stopped posting on bd.net because nobody was accepting his stories for fact. It's all on record over there. The tissue of outright lies & distortions Mike quotes above is just a small example of the crap Brent has posted in the past, got shot down in flames and then re-posted somewhere else. He's incapable of learning anything new or accepting that he may not always be right.

PDW


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## chall03

Welcome to Sailnet gentlemen.

Just when I thought this thread had given all it had to give.

Brent is a real cruiser. A cruiser's cruiser, very very busy cruising. While we wait for him to float his boat off a reef, find some wifi and come and again dazzle us here I have gone to effort of whipping up some refreshments.


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## bobperry

"In fact what usually happens is that Brent makes it up something silly, attributes it someone, posts several times that they said it, then goes on to quote it on another forum. "

Yes, Mike. I noticed that. When the real facts don't work Brent likes to make some up.

But with all of that he is passionate about his boats and he can be entertaining. When he isn't being insulting.


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## bobperry

Marty:
Not doing Race Your House this year. Wasn't invited back. I think Trickpig and I scared them a bit last year. But we had some serious fun.

Just got a new custom boat job that will be announced soon on Crusing Anerchy by the client. He's a regular there with a very, very nice current boat but he has an desire to do a custom boat. So today I'll listen to the opera on CBC2, The PEARL FISHERS, sit at my computer and stare at the spider in the corner of my window and see if it does any better than I did fishing this morning. I'll be thinking hard about the new design.

Can't say it will be a very exciting day. But I'll endeavour to make it a good day.


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## djodenda

OK, Bob.. So I design stuff too. I design factory automation systems, both hardware and software, from initial concept, right through to installation and debug.

(I'm not saying it's the same as designing boats, but these projects can run on for a year or more, so they do get pretty complex)

Personally, I find it the most enjoyable after I have gotten an initial concept sketched out, and start doing the design of actual components and system.

I find the development of initial concepts less enjoyable than subsequent stages. I'm not so happy until I have something down that I am pretty sure will work. Once I do, though, it's usually a lot of fun.

What stage of the design process do you enjoy the most?

(I know it's pretty early for essay questions, but I'd be real interested... Besides, I'm stuck in the fog right now anyway. It's either this or go back to work)

David


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## bobperry

Dave:
I think I am the opposite of you. I like flying through the initial preliminary design phase where all options are investigated and the design slowly begins to take shape.

However, like right now, today, the thought of having to put down the first lines of a new design is daunting because I know they will be wrong. This client has very high aesthetic goals for the boat. He has told me that the primary goal is in his words "row away factor". I can do it but I am very hard on myself in this stage of the design. I always want perfect and I never get perfect. But being very familiar with the client's current boat will help me get started.

I love working on the hull design. It gets all parts of my brain working at once.


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## djodenda

Thanks, Bob..

I really like my present boat, but for me, it has a low "row-away factor". Maybe the next boat. It would be nice...

I'm headed to work, it looks like, where I am going to do some grunt work.

Good luck. Looks like we will sail tomorrow. You are welcome to come.


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## djodenda

OK.. for the rest of you out there.. How much is "row away factor" important to you?

Is there a steel boat out there that you personally feel has a great one?

For me, most of them don't really, although there are some that look OK to me.


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## bobperry

Dave:
Thanks for the offer. Maybe some other time.
Still thick fog here at the beach.

I think row away factor is huge but it's so subjective. Maybe just "I like my boat" is good enough.


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## djodenda

I like my boat and it is way more than good enough.

I am a fortunate person.


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## bobperry

Nice name too Dave.


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## djodenda

bobperry said:


> Nice name too Dave.


Thanks, Bob. Not many people "get it", but when they do, it's pretty special.


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## outbound

Think the Puffin series of steel boats have a great "row away" factor. Very specialized thin water boats but pretty. Got to crawl around one in N.H. when I was doing the due diligence before building the Outbound. Inside was gorgeous as well. Just got back from sailing back and forth from the Annapolis show. More I use the vessel the prettier she is in my eyes. I think that's the real "row away" factor. Not how you feel when she first launches but how you feel rowing away after you have put some miles on her and understand the genius of all the little things that make her work for you. Things like how you can move about down below in a sea. How she handles the waves. How she sails. The quality of the workmanship. How things are placed just so allowing you to work the boat easily. How she sleeps. What it takes to make a meal and take care of yourself on passage. The whole Bauhaus thing- form follows function and still get something beautiful not industrial in appearance.


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## djodenda

Pictures, please?


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## outbound

Also think the Atlantic 45 by Kanter was a classy looking craft.


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## smackdaddy

outbound said:


> The whole Bauhaus thing- form follows function and still get something beautiful not industrial in appearance.


Uh-oh. I remember Bob using the term Gestalt at some point around here - now we have Bauhaus. Throw in some De Stijl - and things are about to REAL up in here!

Seriously, it's cool to see some new design-heads joining the fray. Welcome.


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## outbound

Puffin® Sailing Yachts | Olivier van Meer Design Naval Architect - 18k


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## SloopJonB

Row away factor is #1 to me, then performance, then build quality - you can always improve on a given boats build but not its basic design.

Row away factor is totally subjective though - I like a number of boats that many consider ugly - my last Columbia 43 for example.

Not many good looking steel boats out there IMHO. I like the Reve D'Antilles, mostly because it has a flush deck and looks rather racer/brutal.

Waterline built some nice ones locally but they generally weren't of a style I cared for.


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## bobperry

Smack:
Yes I think I used "gestalt" in reference to my doppelanger.


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## blt2ski

Had a great day today.......got two, yes TWO sloopers out of the deal today! Overall win in NFS division 1, with 2 bullets and a 2nd corrected to 1st. and 1st OVERALL nfs.....wish I could say there was more than one division.....but, what the hey! anytime one wins TWO sloopers. gotta be a good day! will post pics when brain is not drunk on two sloopers!

I like my boat too. I could row this one to the end of the earth too! but like ALL things great and small, one can find a better one I am sure. just do not let amoretto know! Now MR WInston on the other hand......that will be a really tough one to replace, best doggie I have had!

Marty


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## bobperry

Conga rats Marty.
Sounds like you had great day. Stayed foggy here all day until late afternoon.


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## blt2ski

Thought we had two bullets. First race we finished in first, first OA in 3 hrs 5 min, only to find out there is/was a blinken 3 hr time limit! only 9 of 36 boat finished in the time limit, with 3 of 5 divisions having NO ONE that finished in the allotted time. Talk about a let down. oh well, they did appear to gun us in the way in!

Marty


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## Jeff_H

To me, as an architect of buildings, the design process is iterative with multiple loops before I get to a final design. It starts at a very functional level, creating a written understanding of the project goals and constraints. Checking out views, privacy issues, solar and prevailing breezes, as well as other site constraints. That first step always feels cold and mathematical. It feels like being forced to eat the vegetables before you can have desert. But then starts the conceptual stage, rolling the pieces and parts around in my mind- a sense of joyful play with a mental rubek cube organizing the pieces and parts to solve the functional puzzle and in the process, beginning to mentally develop the aesthetics of the design. Often I have the design clear in my head before putting pencil to paper in earnest. That said, like many architects and designers of my generation, I visualize in three dimensional sketches and I will produce small sketches as a way of organizing my thinking and retaining parts of an idea. Even my earliest thought process tries to consider the technical aspects of how a design can be constructed to a relatively high level of detail. By the time the design gets drafted as a schematic design, I usually understand how such practicalities as structure, materials, heating and cooling, etc. will work. 

This conceptual stage of the project is the most joyful for me, but a also the most stressful. I see this stage as being drought with traps. The most creative part of me, sees a wide array of potential directions but the realistic side knows I can only pursue one of these. There is always this leap of faith that I will have chosen the right one. 

Any designer worth their salt understands the tightrope walking without a net that is involved in being creative for a living, and having to be creative on demand. It is the challenge, tension and ecstasy of what we do. But it is this moment that is my favorite part of what I do. But I also truly enjoy getting to know most of my clients. I also really enjoy solving and inventing technical solutions to make the project's aesthetic objectives technically sound. 

As to the row away factor, I love beautiful boats. I love seeing them. They bring joy to my day. But oddly enough, my view of my own boat's are closer to Brent's even though our tastes are clearly different than Brent's. But to me a boat is simply a tool, a very sophisticated tool, but a tool none the less. It's reason for being is to function well in the ways it was designed to be used. 

But like any well designed tool, there is an appealing aesthetic that derives from the simple visual expression of the purposeful sinew and muscle that makes that tool work well. I know this to result in a very different row away aesthetic sense than you might find in the sailing community at large. And that is okay with me since I also appreciate the more normally accepted sense of aesthetics as long as it's not my boat. 

Respectfully 
Jeff


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## bobperry

Jeff:
I think you and I are on the same page. There can be a lot of beauty in a well designed work boat. We have fleets of beautiful fishing boats all around the PNW. We have some butt ugly onse too. Bill Garden did some fiosh boats that are works of art.

Marty:
Sounds like I picked the right day NOT to try racing a Baba 35 ph. That could have been very painful.


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## Jeff_H

On the question of attractive steel designs, when I worked with Charlie Wittholz we would discuss the issues of designing hard chine boats. To me, I have a hard time justifying the cost to produce a design with full compound curves in steel so to me the best use of steel involves addressing chine construction. Charlie's Chines followed patterns which evolved from traditional wooden boat types. They were essentially vee bottom boats with conic sections. The shape of the chines as the crossed the topside became a defining character setting part of the design. These sweeps were purposely massaged until they were attractive from all angles since boats are rarely perceived solely in profile or head on as they were drafted back then. 

Today there is a performance boat aesthetic emerging from race boats that is very different from designs from the past. Visually I have not yet learned to like it, but I understand from a performance standpoint. I think this new aesthetic lends itself nicely to metal, and I would think that steel would be a viable material for larger versions of that aesthetic. 
Jeff


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## bobperry

I agree Jeff. The well placed chine can really enhance the lines of a boat. Chines certainly do not have to be ugly.


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## bob77903

I ran across this site http://www.sv-restless.com/ a few years back, and was very impressed by the look, workmanship, and dedication Bob put into building Restless. One beautiful steel boat...worth a look....


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## djodenda

One of the things that we struggle with in producing large composite aerospace structures is maximizing the width of the composite tape that we can use to build up the structures efficiently. Some of the flat-patterning issues Bob has been discussing regarding his peapod dinghy is relevant, I think. I expect we have something to learn from the people that have been doing this for boats for so long.

No chines on airplanes.


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## bobperry

That is a beautiful steel boat. I'm not wild about the design but the execution is flawless.
Kind of raises the bar for steel.


----------



## djodenda

Another issue we are dealing with is the "black aluminum" problem... 

We tend to follow what we know, and that can result in designing using structural concepts that were designed for aluminum, instead of inventing/finding new ones more appropriate to the very different characteristics of composites.

The result is an airplane design in carbon composites that is very similar to the structure of an aluminum airplane..

Hence: the "black aluminum" problem...

Different aerospace companies have this problem to different degrees.

It would also be fair to say that proceeding with innovation slowly has its benefits.


----------



## bob77903

bobperry said:


> That is a beautiful steel boat. I'm not wild about the design but the execution is flawless.
> Kind of raises the bar for steel.


It's a long site http://www.sv-restless.com/, but in the build he said he wanted a steel boat with no chines or corners. He accomplished it quite well in my opinion....


----------



## PCP

In what regards steel boats I like some of Ed Rutherford designs. Expensive boats but certainly very strong ones and not that slow, specially the big ones.



Project Gallery >> Designers and builder's of fine metal boats >> Waterline Yachts

http://www.waterline-yachts.com/downloads/Press_BlueWaterSailingJul2004.pdf


----------



## SloopJonB

djodenda said:


> No chines on airplanes.


Actually, there are - the "edge" down the middle of the fuselage on the SR71 was called a chine. The F117 is nothing BUT chines and the new fighters are much like the SR71 in being "split" above & below a fuselage chine.


----------



## djodenda

SloopJonB said:


> Actually, there are - the "edge" down the middle of the fuselage on the SR71 was called a chine. The F117 is nothing BUT chines and the new fighters are much like the SR71 in being "split" above & below a fuselage chine.


Excellent point. You are correct. I will tell a short story to avert attention from my error.

Back in the 1980s I did some contract work at the Lockheed Skunk Works in Burbank. I had never seen such high security. I thought it was all pretty ridiculous, since the parts I saw being machined didn't look all that special. I they didn't look "curvy" enough to be aerodynamic surfaces. I remember one that looked a lot like the oil pan for a 350 Chevy engine.

It wasn't until much later, that I realized the reason for the strange angular parts.

They were for the F-117!


----------



## bobperry

For those of us not of the aerospace pursuasion I wish you guys would post pics of the planes you talk about. I am very interested I just don't know the planes by their technical names. Blackbird?

Dave's comment on learning how to use CF hit home. When we first starting using it to "reinforce" areas built in oridinary grp we soon learned that CF did not always "load share" well with other materials. In the yacht design business we typically do not have the engineering budget to do extensive engineering studies with new materials. Back in the old Ballard days when I had my hands on a new material I would take it out onto the stair landing and pound on it with a hammer. No, I'm not kidding.


----------



## SloopJonB

Tripp senior drove his Jag roadster over early fiberglass laminates so you were following in an honoured tradition. 

I remember back in the 80's a guy brought some surplus/scrap Boeing carbon/aluminium honeycomb pieces to the local boatyard. I was absolutely stunned and fascinated by them - a piece around 12" X 8" X 3/4" (IIRC) was so weightless I couldn't believe it - noticeably lighter than plain balsa. We "curbed" it - put on an angle between a support and the ground - and were unable to deflect it ANY visible amount - that's 220 Lbs stomping on it. It was amazing - and that was about 30 years ago. What they make at a place like Lockheed now must be pure science fiction.

Bob - here are the planes with chines


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
Thanks muchly for that tid bit on info that I had been looking for for years. I always had an inkling that Tripp drove a Jag. Seems sillly to even care but, I'm weird. I do.

Yep, when the comment was made that planes have no chines I thought , now wait just a cotton pickin' minute. What about the stealth fighter ad the blackbird? Hell, on the stealth even the chines have chines.


----------



## smackdaddy

PCP said:


> In what regards steel boats I like some of Ed Rutherford designs. Expensive boats but certainly very strong ones and not that slow, specially the big ones.
> 
> 
> 
> Project Gallery >> Designers and builder's of fine metal boats >> Waterline Yachts
> 
> http://www.waterline-yachts.com/downloads/Press_BlueWaterSailingJul2004.pdf


Now that's a beautiful steel boat. So it can be done.


----------



## tdw

Can't say I am all that fond of the look of hard chine boats but having owned one I've come round to multi chines. The slab sideness of the hard chiner does not please my eye, somewhat wonky though it may be. Otoh, I always felt that our steel VDS34 was a better looker than a mate's cold moulded version of the same design. That is said even though I'd have preferred the timber boat to the steel and the timber would blow us out of the water except in a big blow.


----------



## Faster

PCP said:


> In what regards steel boats I like some of Ed Rutherford designs. Expensive boats but certainly very strong ones and not that slow, specially the big ones.
> 
> 
> 
> Project Gallery >> Designers and builder's of fine metal boats >> Waterline Yachts
> 
> http://www.waterline-yachts.com/downloads/Press_BlueWaterSailingJul2004.pdf


We met up with that boat in the Broughton Islands/Northern Vancouver Island this past summer.. she's as impressive in the 'flesh'... er.. 'steel'- as in this very good shot. Owner was very pleasant too, we had a nice chat.


----------



## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> Now that's a beautiful steel boat. So it can be done.


There is plenty of nice steel boats. That is not the issue but if they are the better option for the type of sailing or cruising one does.

Just to remain with American designers look at this design by Ted Brewer:



I don't find it ugly with its traditional looks.

Ted Brewer has a nice article about steel and Aluminium relative advantages and disadvantages:

Sail Far Live Free - Sailboats, Sailing News, and Gear: The Metal Yacht - Aluminum & Steel Sailboat Perspectives

and from an European designer (Andre Hoek ) this one does not look bad either



http://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/jong...ng-super-yachts-custom-made-22388-323838.html

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

One can make a beautiful boat, house, car etc out of ANY material. BUT, one needs a good design and a good builder/people that also have a knack for how to build with said material.

Otherwise as noted by some of the pics, along with the recent on smacky posted. some are fugly, other fantastic. The smackers steelie is beautiful! That BS boat on the outside was very rough, inside, wow! for the one in BC that was/is for sale recently posted.

marty


----------



## bobperry

Yeah, I think we have reached a concensus here. An important one in the the scope of his discussion. I don't think there is an anti steel guy among us. As a group it appears we have a problem with bad design and not the material.

Steel does not mean hard to look at. It can. But there are a lot of grp boats that are hard to look at too. It's all in the design and the execution. But from my perspective it starts with good, techically competant, aesthetically sensitive design.

I'll hoist a cup of Taiwan Oolong tea to that.


----------



## tdw

bobperry said:


> Yeah, I think we have reached a concensus here. An important one in the the scope of his discussion. I don't think there is an anti steel guy among us. As a group it appears we have a problem with bad design and not the material.
> 
> Steel does not mean hard to look at. It can. But there are a lot of grp boats that are hard to look at too. It's all in the design and the execution. But from my perspective it starts with good, techically competant, aesthetically sensitive design.
> 
> I'll hoist a cup of Taiwan Oolong tea to that.


and so will I.

One of my favorites from a book of unattainable dreams ....

Arthur Beiser's Alden ketch "Minots Light".


----------



## smackdaddy

PCP said:


>


Wow. That's freakin' gorgeous.

So the problem seems to be "settling" for the "workboat aesthetic" in smaller steel boats simply because they don't know how to do anything better?


----------



## steve77

tdw said:


> and so will I.
> 
> One of my favorites from a book of unattainable dreams ....
> 
> Arthur Beiser's Alden ketch "Minots Light".


I read Beiser's "The Sailor's World" a long time ago and it probably and it was probably the book that got me really interested in sailing. And Minots Light was the boat of my dreams.


----------



## chall03

PCP said:


>




Well hello there......

Brent - Knock me up one of these puppies and there WILL be a Brentblock hanging from my christmas tree, an 'I heart reefs' bumper sticker slapped on my transom and I will happily tell Perry and his plastic boat salesmen where to stick their toy boats


----------



## bobperry

Is the Hoek boat steel?
If it is then consider the bar raised.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Is the Hoek boat steel?
> If it is then consider the bar raised.


From the page PCP linked to under the photo:



> Wellenreiter is the largest Jongert yacht ever launched. She was designed by Andre Hoek and built in 2003. This 46 m steel sloop with aluminium superstructure and keel/centreboard configuration has a very high sail area to displacement ratio for a keel boat. Other technical elements include her furling boom, captive winches and storage for two tenders in the stern (under deck) and bow (integrated in the superstructure).
> 
> Below decks luxury prevails. The full beam owner's stateroom is located astern and includes an office, sitting room and vast walk-through bathroom, a spectacular feature normally found on large motor yachts.
> The Custom Line has become synonymous with personal comfort and perfection down to the finest detail.


----------



## bobperry

Must take one hell of a big sheet to do the origami fold up thing on a boat that size.


----------



## PCP

There is no reason for a steel yacht to be less beautiful than an aluminium yacht and there are plenty of beautiful relatively small aluminium yachts. It can be done, but it is not done, I mean the designers specialized in aluminum and steel boats are for many years doing almost exclusively aluminum boats. I don't say that they will not consider steel a good option it is just that there is not a significant market for them.

The Dutch (Hoek is Dutch) are one of the European countries where metal (steel and aluminium) boats are truly appreciated and they always had NA specialized in steel and aluminium boats.

Let's take for example Dick Zall, he says about steel boats:

*"Steel has many advantages for boat building, among the foremost of which are its strength and resistance to abrasion and impact. "A small boat built of steel is as close to truly indestructible as it's possible to get," writes naval architect Dave Gerr in The Nature of Boats. Another advantage of steel is that it's easily worked on by welders anywhere in the world, making repairs inexpensive for cruising boats.

It is also ductile, or stretchable, which means that if you hit a rock or a half-submerged shipping container, you're not likely to sink. The hull may be dented and deformed, but it probably won't be holed, as a wooden or fibreglass hull might be. On the other hand, steel vessels are heavy because to keep the skin plating from wrapping during welding, a plate thickness of 3 mm is minimum, and often 4 mm is used for this reason.

So it takes boats longer than 15.00 metres to become more or less equal with some other building materials, although it remains a lot heavier than composite for instance.

However the performances of a proper designed heavy displacement yacht are just what is ideal for the long distance cruiser, taking a lot of stores and gear along.

She will more easily float on her designed lines, while a light displacement yacht taking the same load will become dangerous as well as misbehaving."*

He says something I have heard other NA saying: It does not make sense to make a very small (less than 40ft) steel boat. The sail performance would be bad, while a bigger boat (45/50ft) would have comparatively a much better performance. This is because the weight of a steel boat is not proportional to its size and it is possible to make a bigger boat proportionally lighter.

Regarding what I was saying about the almost non existence of new designs in steel even in the designers that used to work with the material, just look at the page of Dick Zall regarding the boats he had done in steel and the ones he is doing in aluminium. It is easy to see that steel designs are all old designs while we can find several contemporary designs regarding aluminium boats:

Designs Overview : steel | Dick Zaal Yacht Design

Designs Overview : aluminium | Dick Zaal Yacht Design

If we do the same with other famous Dutch Na specialized in steel and Aluminium (Koopmans, father and son) we will see the same. New designs are in Aluminium.

http://www.dickkoopmans.nl/news/

For what I understand many aluminium designs could be built in steel with some structural alterations and vice-versa. Koopmans offers many of his designs in steel or aluminium. The reason steel is not utilized has not to do with any difficulty in doing nice boats and nice designs but due to the market, meaning sailors want faster boats even if at the cost of less resistance to impact and a bigger price (regarding aluminium).

Fact is that the standard of sailing boat speed have been increasing rapidly. Today a main mass market boat like the Jeanneau 409 is faster than a 30 year old cruiser racer, new materials and the use of infusion cored boats made fiberglass boats much lighter increasing a lot the difference of weigh between a steel boat and a fiberglass boat and to that difference corresponds an increase in the difference in performance.

Steel boats made no sense today? Off course not, they are still the strongest boats but only few (except for some extreme sailing) would chose them over other material options. That is not an opinion, it is a fact that as a direct reflex on the market.


----------



## mstern

tdw said:


> and so will I.
> 
> One of my favorites from a book of unattainable dreams ....
> 
> Arthur Beiser's Alden ketch "Minots Light".


What a great book. I bought my copy at a flea market about 10 years ago and paid about $3 for it. He did a follow up book (I've forgotten the title, but it was something like "The Proper Yacht, Vol. 2") that I also have (forgot how I obtained that one). I didn't find the second book as much fun as the first; probably because it focussed on fiberglass boats of a vintage that did not excite me that much. As I recall, the first book profiled only one fiberglass boat, the Allied Seabreeze (a boat I find particularly fetching).


----------



## Martinjf

I always liked Kanter aluminum boats myself.

http://www.kanteryachts.com/kanter.html

Their mission statement says it all!


----------



## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> Wow. That's freakin' gorgeous.
> 
> So the problem seems to be "settling" for the "workboat aesthetic" in smaller steel boats simply because they don't know how to do anything better?


Forget about the Noordkaper and company:





The Noordkaper is the only European small production steel boat I know off.

The boats can be built in Aluminium or steel but given the type of boat in my opinion steel makes more sense and fact is that most boats they make are steel boats.

The boats are made along traditional lines and make great living aboard boats with an incredible amount of space. I like them.

Gebr. van Enkhuizen. Yachtbuilders .Noordkaper. Sossego, Enk-Yacthts en Noorderkotter.

http://www.noordkaper.com/noordkape...kaper Sailing Yachts NK 40 borchure ENG .pdf

http://www.noordkaper.com/noordkapers/noordkaper40/Cruising world Noordkaper 40.pdf

http://www.noordkaper.com/yachtbuilding01.htm

The Noordkaper are very well buit have a great finish but even in steel they are very expensive boats

Some movies:


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## bobperry

I like those Paulo. I'd like them better if I had drawn the sheerline. But still they are beautifully executed.


----------



## PCP

The Designer is Martin Bekebrede another Dutch NA specialized in steel and aluminium with very conservative but many times beautiful drawings. Most of them have a traditional look and a also "traditional" hulls.

MBYD - Martin Bekebrede Yacht Design

But I like more the work of another conservative Dutch Na, also with many steel and aluminium designs, particularly his Zaca series. Have a look at the bigger one (steel).

http://www.oliviervanmeer.com/fleet/sail.html


----------



## MikeJohns

I’ve worked with a lot with and steel vessels of all sizes and flavors. New designs, re designs and project management of maintenance and rebuilding. One thing you learn with steel commercial boats is to keep the steelwork simple well finished, visible and maintainable. Direct any possible water ingress quickly and cleanly to the bilge and allow inspection of the hull interior below surrounding any insert in the hull deck and cabinsides. 

But too often a fitout that suits a GRP hull is fitted in a steel boat to it’s detriment. The trend to installing seamless glued fitouts in steel leisure production boats from yards such as Jongert and Trintella wasn’t a great trend. It gave steel a bad name because interior maintenece, even basic inspection was impossible without ripping out, and then rebuilding parts of the interior. Charter sailboats were milked till they needed substantial replating then sold. 

Steel screams it’s demise to corrosion. Only a third of rusts mass is from iron, (there are 2 moles of Oxygen to one mole of iron) and the corrosion product puffs up 4 to 6 times the plate thickness prior to actually holing it and it’s ugly and highly visible. As a result even neglected boats tend to have external rust issues fixed while still a minor pitting problem. As a result most steel hull problems are internal not external. Althoug there is one real killer and that’s putting timber over a steel deck. This was a big problem with European steel production boats. Little streams of rust stain flowing out from under teak decking is a common sight.

There are a lot of large initially very expensive steel sailboats for example sold for a pittance 25 years down the track with hulls that need substantial patching. That is nearly always because the interior was inaccessible for inspection. Particularly in the typical problem areas. 

In my anchorage on moorings ( near Hobart) are a 65 foot steel ketch built in Germany in circa 1910 called ‘Mahe’ and a 1935 steel ketch of 50 feet built in Holland called ‘Scaldis’ both have had some replating over the years mainly in the bilges and anchor locker, but both are very capable ocean going craft of immense strength and have been (and still are) sailed offshore extensively. There’s really no reason I can see that they won’t see another hundred years of use, and probably another after that. But they were built heavily to scaled down ship scantlings by shipbuilding yards and are immensely strong full keel designs. Scaldis goes like a scalded cat with the wind over 20 knots. 

I think hot zinc ( or aluminium) spray of the interior of a steel hull is a worthwhile effort for a newbuild. But it pays dividends lond after the first owners have moved it on so it’s never been popular with production boat builders unfortunately. They ( production metal boat builders) have moved to a man to Aluminium alloy now.


----------



## bfloyd4445

PCP said:


> In what regards steel boats I like some of Ed Rutherford designs. Expensive boats but certainly very strong ones and not that slow, specially the big ones.
> 
> 
> 
> Project Gallery >> Designers and builder's of fine metal boats >> Waterline Yachts
> 
> http://www.waterline-yachts.com/downloads/Press_BlueWaterSailingJul2004.pdf


what a beautiful picture. Is that your boat?


----------



## MikeJohns

Here's a picture Of scaldis Built 1935 50' on deck around 43 LWL 25 tons displacement lightship around 28 tons departure. Sailing up to her mooring with one adult and and 2 children as they do in all weathers. A very handy boat.

Build is flush riveted steel by De Vries Lentsch. She just had her first cut and patch since 1935 and had around 10 One ft square patches replaced along the bilge concrete ballast line in the wet bilge, a few pinholes had been weeping for a while.


----------



## PCP

bfloyd4445 said:


> what a beautiful picture. Is that your boat?


no, mine is much smaller and less expensive. It is a fiberglass boat. This one:



It is also the boat on my avatar.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bfloyd4445

PCP said:


> no, mine is much smaller and less expensive. It is a fiberglass boat. This one:
> 
> 
> 
> It is also the boat on my avatar.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


geez.. she looks like a rocket not a sailboat...geez.. i would kill myself if I owned one of those bouncing off of shoals and container ships... Yahoo!!<smile>. But you know, she has beautiful lines. How fast will she go?

Your waterline pix put me in love. I looked at a few on the net and if I was more affluent I would consider one in a heartbeat. There not designed by that Perry guy are they?<smile> I saw a nice one for 350,000 but my beer account only has 250,000 in it. Besides, if I spend all my beer money on a boat what do I use for grog?


----------



## PCP

bfloyd4445 said:


> geez.. she looks like a rocket not a sailboat...geez.. i would kill myself if I owned one of those bouncing off of shoals and container ships... Yahoo!!<smile>. But you know, she has beautiful lines. How fast will she go?
> 
> Your waterline pix put me in love. I looked at a few on the net and if I was more affluent I would consider one in a heartbeat. There not designed by that Perry guy are they?<smile> I saw a nice one for 350,000 but my beer account only has 250,000 in it. Besides, if I spend all my beer money on a boat what do I use for grog?


Last post about this. I don't like to be off topic: You can find one of those 7 year's old in Italy (where the used sailboats are cheap now due to the bad economic situation) for around 150 000 euros. They still make this model and you can buy a brand new one with the same hull but a faster keel, two wheel setup and a nicer more integrated geenaker pole by about 300 000 euros. No, it is not a Bob Perry design but he has designed boats as fast as this one and even faster (racers).

I don't know how fast she can go. I know that on the first sailing test with a full crew and strong wind they went to 18K. There is one racing (duo crew) right now on the Middle of the sea sail race and at one of the control points they were faster than several 40class racers. My boat is no racer and has a great (and heavy) cruising interior.

I sail solo (with my wife that likes to cook) and I am happy with the boat reaching easily 8K, even with weak winds and go occasionally at 11/12K downwind (without spinnaker).

Well, just to be on topic: You cannot do that with a 41ft steel boat

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

" How fast will she go?"

Floyd:
Sailors don't ask that question.


----------



## Don L

PCP said:


> Last post about this. I don't like to be off topic:


What is the topic as I keep clicking on the thread based on the title?


----------



## smackdaddy

It's pretty simple really...The Pros and Cons of Steel Sailboats.

One of the primary cons is that most of the examples have been less than pretty. PCP's examples show that this needn't be the case. There are some really beautiful steel yachts out there.

One question now is - can origami steel boats be beautiful? That would be a "pro".


----------



## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> It's pretty simple really...The Pros and Cons of Steel Sailboats.
> 
> One of the primary cons is that most of the examples have been less than pretty. PCP's examples show that this needn't be the case. There are some really beautiful steel yachts out there.
> 
> One question now is - can origami steel boats be beautiful? That would be a "pro".


I'd like to see pics of YMT's origami boats - the little drawings I've seen so far indicate yes but pics would be the clincher.

I suspect the answer is yes.


----------



## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> I'd like to see pics of YMT's origami boats - the little drawings I've seen so far indicate yes but pics would be the clincher.
> 
> I suspect the answer is yes.


There are lots of renderings and pics on his website:

Tanton Yachts

For example, here's an origami steeler that looks pretty damn sweet to me:










It would be awesome if M. Tanton would come around.


----------



## rgp

Faster said:


> We met up with that boat in the Broughton Islands/Northern Vancouver Island this past summer.. she's as impressive in the 'flesh'... er.. 'steel'- as in this very good shot. Owner was very pleasant too, we had a nice chat.


The boat in the picture is Ed's boat, Metal.
I think you meet my wife, Tracy, and I in the Broughtons this summer, our boat is Delphina


----------



## Faster

rgp said:


> The boat in the picture is Ed's boat, Metal.
> I think you meet my wife, Tracy, and I in the Broughtons this summer, our boat is Delphina


Right you are!... nice to 'meet' you again. It was in Pt McNeill, we were part of the 'fish'n'chips on the rocks' group..


----------



## bobperry

OK, Yves-Marie Tanton and I go waaaaaaay back. He used to be my boss. I'll give him a phone call tomorrow and coax him over here. He knows his stuff.

See, I am useful.


----------



## blt2ski

bobperry said:


> OK, Yves-Marie Tanton and I go waaaaaaay back. He used to be my boss. I'll give him a phone call tomorrow and coax him over here. He knows his stuff.
> 
> See, I am useful.


BP is usefull?!?!?!?!?! this I gotta see......:laugher:laugher


----------



## outbound

Bought my boat through anchor yachts.he also is dealer for waterline in New England . The waterlines are drop dead gorgeous but unfortunately too dear for my wallet. There is no reason a metal boat need be ugly.look forward to M.Tautons input.always loved his inventiveness .


----------



## bobperry

Just got off the phone with Yves-Marie. He will be here later.

We had a good chat. He has lots of experience with the origami method and he has been doing a lot of alu and steel boats lately. Keep in mind that Yves-Marie has designed just about every kind of boat imaginable, from state of the art racing machines to large power yachts. He has a ton of design experience and a good eye.

He talks funny though.


----------



## mstern

bobperry said:


> He talks funny though.


Like Steve Martin once said: "Its like those French have a different word for everything!"


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Just got off the phone with Yves-Marie. He will be here later.
> 
> We had a good chat. He has lots of experience with the origami method and he has been doing a lot of alu and steel boats lately. Keep in mind that Yves-Marie has designed just about every kind of boat imaginable, from state of the art racing machines to large power yachts. He has a ton of design experience and a good eye.
> 
> He talks funny though.


Damn! You ARE useful!

This thread is getting better and better!


----------



## Faster

Poor guy's gotta read through this entire thread first!... could be a while


----------



## bobperry

Told you.
Neener neener.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Just got off the phone with Yves-Marie. He will be here later.
> 
> We had a good chat. He has lots of experience with the origami method and he has been doing a lot of alu and steel boats lately. Keep in mind that Yves-Marie has designed just about every kind of boat imaginable, from state of the art racing machines to large power yachts. He has a ton of design experience and a good eye.
> 
> He talks funny though.


Very cool. I've admired his designs for nearly 40 years now.


----------



## smackdaddy

Faster said:


> Poor guy's gotta read through this entire thread first!... could be a while


Oh crap. My BS Yachts Marketing Program post alone will take him 2-1/2 weeks.


----------



## bobperry

Yves-Marie knows BS's work. I'll let him speak on that himself. But Yves-Marie is pretty low key and I can't see him responding to any of the typcial BS stuff.


----------



## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> Just got off the phone with Yves-Marie. He will be here later.
> 
> We had a good chat. He has lots of experience with the origami method and he has been doing a lot of alu and steel boats lately. Keep in mind that Yves-Marie has designed just about every kind of boat imaginable, from state of the art racing machines to large power yachts. He has a ton of design experience and a good eye.
> 
> He talks funny though.


That is very cool! (I hope he isn't upset that I posted his Steelstar drawing without permission.)

Thank you for doing that,
Jeff


----------



## bobperry

Jeff:
I can't imagine that Yves-Marie would be anything but pleased that you did that. I would be.


----------



## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> Jeff:
> I can't imagine that Yves-Marie would be anything but pleased that you did that. I would be.


That's good to hear. I always worry about copying other people's copyrighted work. Yves-Marie is a very interesting designer. He tends to be very creative. I came close to buying an old 3/4 tonner that was his design. It was a cool boat in a lot of ways. They showed me the drawings for that boat. It was amazing how efficiently he conveyed information. There was very few sheets of drawings, but my recollection was that there was an extensive amount of information in simple form in an almost diagrammatic style contained on them.

By contrast, I was amazed when I saw a full set of drawings for my boat. There were a comparatively large number of sheets, and there were a surprising amount detail on each, showing almost any detail you could think of including keel bolt backing plate diagrams and rudder post stuffing box details.

The odd thing is that when I look at pictures of sister ships to my boat there are big deviations in how they are actually constructed. The thing I can't get over is how extreme the things are which are left out, especially consideing the careful detailing. Fo rexample Farr used a series of glassed in transverse bulkheads and stringers for his framing, and that quite a few of the boats are missing several of the bulkheads. Who thought that was a good idea? These boats were designed with cored decks, but mine has no coring, using thicker glass and a series of small frames.

Jeff


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> That's good to hear. I always worry about copying other people's copyrighted work. Yves-Marie is a very interesting designer. He tends to be very creative. I came close to buying an old 3/4 tonner that was his design. It was a cool boat in a lot of ways. They showed me the drawings for that boat. It was amazing how efficiently he conveyed information. There was very few sheets of drawings, but my recollection was that there was an extensive amount of information in simple form in an almost diagrammatic style contained on them.
> 
> By contrast, I was amazed when I saw a full set of drawings for my boat. There were a comparatively large number of sheets, and there were a surprising amount detail on each, showing almost any detail you could think of including keel bolt backing plate diagrams and rudder post stuffing box details.
> 
> The odd thing is that when I look at pictures of sister ships to my boat there are big deviations in how they are actually constructed. The thing I can't get over is how extreme the things are which are left out, especially consideing the careful detailing. Fo rexample Farr used a series of glassed in transverse bulkheads and stringers for his framing, and that quite a few of the boats are missing several of the bulkheads. Who thought that was a good idea? These boats were designed with cored decks, but mine has no coring, using thicker glass and a series of small frames.
> 
> Jeff


That shows the beauty of origami construction. It is so simple that it doesn't take a whole pile of drawings. A huge pile of drawings is a warning of a boat which is needlessly complex, from a designer who lacks the genius of keeping things simple. 
As Einstien said 
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex.
It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction."
Many have built my designs with a zero further questions. They found all they needed in the plans , my book and Alex's video. Gerd Meuller said the book didn't have a huge amount of content on origami construction, but then I he realized the process was so simple that it contained all there was to be said about it. Some tell me they find new stuff on their sixth reading of it.
Bob, after you get your skiff done , maybe its time you started designing larger aluminium boats for origami construction ( with radiused chines if you please). Cruisers need alternatives to the expensive, complexity of traditionally constructed designs. I'll be happy to help you out with the learning process, as I'm sure other origami boat designers like Tanton and Graham Shannon would .


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> It's pretty simple really...The Pros and Cons of Steel Sailboats.
> 
> One of the primary cons is that most of the examples have been less than pretty. PCP's examples show that this needn't be the case. There are some really beautiful steel yachts out there.
> 
> One question now is - can origami steel boats be beautiful? That would be a "pro".


Unlike other types of steel construction , origami boats can be beautiful without the filler and 40,000 dollar paint jobs. They are naturally fair, being made from full sized sheets, eliminating the many seams and welds, which are the source of distortion in other building methods.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Must take one hell of a big sheet to do the origami fold up thing on a boat that size.


The biggest sheet of steel I ever worked with was a 12 ft by 60 ft sheet of half inch plate, while working for Canron in the 70's . I used two 25 ton cranes on it. It was laid out to be cut into small pieces. 
Steel is shipped in coils, up to 150 feet long, like huge rolls of toilet paper , to be flattened and cut to whatever length the supplier wants to deal with, at the destination.


----------



## Brent Swain

mstern said:


> What a great book. I bought my copy at a flea market about 10 years ago and paid about $3 for it. He did a follow up book (I've forgotten the title, but it was something like "The Proper Yacht, Vol. 2") that I also have (forgot how I obtained that one). I didn't find the second book as much fun as the first; probably because it focussed on fiberglass boats of a vintage that did not excite me that much. As I recall, the first book profiled only one fiberglass boat, the Allied Seabreeze (a boat I find particularly fetching).


That book shows up in flea markets for good reason. Its a total bucket of crap. When I was a beginner, I'm embarrassed to admit that I was conned into buying a copy. Ended up using it for fire starter in my wood stove, to eliminate the chance of some sucker believing it. It is entirely a preaching of "Style over substance" priorities . 
No, a storm at sea is NOT a "Fashion show". Nor is the chance of colliding with floating debris. Nor are the consequences of hitting a container on a foggy night , nor a grounding on a lee shore. Seamanship is about safety , not a "fashion show". Seamanship is NOT following Bobs advice to go light and flimsy for that extra quarter knot, and just hope "Cosmic Karma " will save you, and if your boat is pretty , karma wouldn't dare sink you.
Bieser was the victim of his own foolishness when he sailed his very pretty and super complex yacht to mid Atlantic , where she started taking on water . He ran around closing the huge number of thru hulls but couldn't get them all closed in time to stop her from sinking. No, the beautiful teak decks and beautiful bright work didn't discourage reality form sinking her. So much for that theory!
Someone who has been thus proven so foolish, is not a good source of advice on cruising boat priorities!


----------



## bfloyd4445

PCP said:


> Last post about this. I don't like to be off topic: You can find one of those 7 year's old in Italy (where the used sailboats are cheap now due to the bad economic situation) for around 150 000 euros. They still make this model and you can buy a brand new one with the same hull but a faster keel, two wheel setup and a nicer more integrated geenaker pole by about 300 000 euros. No, it is not a Bob Perry design but he has designed boats as fast as this one and even faster (racers).
> 
> I don't know how fast she can go. I know that on the first sailing test with a full crew and strong wind they went to 18K. There is one racing (duo crew) right now on the Middle of the sea sail race and at one of the control points they were faster than several 40class racers. My boat is no racer and has a great (and heavy) cruising interior.
> 
> I sail solo (with my wife that likes to cook) and I am happy with the boat reaching easily 8K, even with weak winds and go occasionally at 11/12K downwind (without spinnaker).
> 
> Well, just to be on topic: You cannot do that with a 41ft steel boat
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Sounds like the way I would have to sail. Thanks fir the info, Looked at an old westsail 32 original owner yesterday that is building his own steel 53 footer. I didn't think the boat was gonna be worth anything and does need a complete refit but the hull looks like a ten year old well maintainedl all original gellcoat never painted. Really nice hull but the rest of the boat was in need of replaceing, at least that's what it looked like to me. Can you imaging an old guy late sixtires building a 53 foot...I think he said ketch.


----------



## bobperry

I'm chock a block with grp boats now. I just started a new 46'er yesterday for an East Coast client. This will be an amazing boat (he said modestly). I'll leave the origami boats you other guys. You have your niche Brent and I have mine. I'll stay with mine. I'm content with my little slice of the pie.

I like to provide as many drawings as I can. My clients don't expect to be making build decisions. I really don't think Einstein had you in mind when he said that Brent. I've seen your drawings.

I like to provide a nice crisp detailed drawing. I take pride in it and I am good at it. But I am a designer and I like to design.


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> Sad to see so much downright dishonesty. Hard to imagine that someone could expect that it would go unnoticed. And all about info that's on public record which is a bit dumb.
> 
> I'm the one Brent refers to as "claiming to be a Naval Architect"
> I'm a PEng who works as a prof marine engineer. The anecdote above attributed to me is typical of Brent. It's also a complete distortion. I didn't make the claim about a square pressure hull. Nor anything about "13 inches of steel plate......." In fact what usually happens is that Brent makes it up something silly, attributes it someone, posts several times that they said it, then goes on to quote it on another forum.
> 
> Wynand the boilermaker and professional steel boatbuilder, who built such great examples of Dudly Dix's designs, didn't say he was a racist and proud of it. That's a bit of a sick statement. Nor were there any racist attacks on Brent. Everyone on BDnet treated him fairly, he just made a complete fool of himself. Again and Again. I like the one about the coastguard backing you up on that site, that's getting creative beyond even a hint of distorted truth.
> 
> Nothing Brent posts can be taken as reality without checking the facts first but I guess everyone knows that by now. I think this spiel of Brent's will make a few people angry since it's quite objectionable.
> 
> PS, Sorry my first post is a bit of a rant


Your comments were that shape has no effect on stiffness, which is the equivalent of stating that a square propane tank is the same strength as a round one. You pressed a spline in the middle, then claimed that a longitudinal would also bulge out near the ends while welded, and thus contained inside a steel hull, the same way your spline out in the open did. Wynand definitely declared himself a racist and proud of it. He also joined the attack on framlessness ,and only later admitted he had built a framless 38 ft Dix design, posted on the origami boats site. You also supported the notion that the steel under my mast support pipes, 13 inches of 3/16th plate, would break before the 3 -5/16th windward shrouds would, and that could happen in the first 4 hours ,. something which hasn't happened in over 40 years. 
I stand by all my comments on that site.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Unlike other types of steel construction , origami boats can be beautiful without the filler and 40,000 dollar paint jobs. They are naturally fair, being made from full sized sheets, eliminating the many seams and welds, which are the source of distortion in other building methods.


I guess this is where we just disagree. Beauty to you is a hull that's not wavy. Beauty to me is a hull that has a beautiful shape, an elegant form, artful proportions. That kind of hull doesn't need paint or filler or anything else to make it beautiful. It just IS beautiful.

Your boats are, without doubt, tough. And they're typically not that wavy. I just think there are far more beautiful steel boats out there. That's all I'm saying. (Many examples above.)


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Your comments were that shape has no effect on stiffness, which is the equivalent of stating that a square propane tank is the same strength as a round one. You pressed a spline in the middle, then claimed that a longitudinal would also bulge out near the ends while welded, and thus contained inside a steel hull, the same way your spline out in the open did. *Wynand definitely declared himself a racist and proud of it.* He also joined the attack on framlessness ,and only later admitted he had built a framless 38 ft Dix design, posted on the origami boats site. You also supported the notion that the steel under my mast support pipes, 13 inches of 3/16th plate, would break before the 3 -5/16th windward shrouds would, and that could happen in the first 4 hours ,. something which hasn't happened in over 40 years.
> I stand by all my comments on that site.


Actual quotes or it didn't happen (like most of the other things you claim people said).

If I can use your actual quotes in my BS Yachts Marketing Program post, you should be able to figure it out.


----------



## tdw

PCP said:


> Forget about the Noordkaper and company:


Paulo, I confess I love that style of European (Dutch ?) boats. To paraphrase the song lyric ... they move me.

Aren't there another couple of examples or has the GFC taken them down ? i remember when I was doing the YachtWorld circuit before we bought our girl that I spent some considerable time drooling over a couple of Euro boats that were of that semi classic style but very modern underwater.

I'll try and find them Beautiful boats, either steel or aluminium.

edit .... Bestewind was one of them .... the other boat in this pic is a Van de Stadt built by the same yard.



and this is the other ..... very similar to the previous boat Paulo posted or is it the same ? Not sure.



edit ... she's a Puffin 42


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Oh crap. My BS Yachts Marketing Program post alone will take him 2-1/2 weeks.


Been cruising, you know, that activity which boats are supposed to be about. Unlike some , I haven't spent the last couple of weeks siting in front of a computer, giving advice on something I rarely experience.
Internet access is shrinking in these islands.


----------



## bobperry

But Brent, you come back from cruising the same angry little man. I don't think cruising is good for you. It seems to make you very uptight. Chill, relax in front of a computer for a few days. Learn to make a nice drawing. You will feel better.

Things have been going well here for a few days. I don't think we need your constant attacks on everything not BS. You are a bore.


----------



## bobperry

Fuzzy:
Paulo is amazing. If it floats he can find it and post it. It's really an asset to have him posting those examples of great looking Euro metal boats. We need some class around here.


----------



## bobperry

"ternet access is shrinking in these islands. "

Great. That's good news.


----------



## tdw

MikeJohns said:


> Here's a picture Of scaldis Built 1935 50' on deck around 43 LWL 25 tons displacement lightship around 28 tons departure. Sailing up to her mooring with one adult and and 2 children as they do in all weathers. A very handy boat.Build is flush riveted steel by De Vries Lentsch. She just had her first cut and patch since 1935 and had around 10 One ft square patches replaced along the bilge concrete ballast line in the wet bilge, a few pinholes had been weeping for a while.


Another old steeler.

This from I think the first edition of the Proper Yacht. From memory posted in an Anarchy thread on double enders. I have no idea if she still lives.


----------



## bobperry

Fuzz:
That is a beautiful yacht. I remember it from years ago.


----------



## PCP

tdw said:


> Paulo, I confess I love that style of European (Dutch ?) boats. To paraphrase the song lyric ... they move me.
> 
> Aren't there another couple of examples or has the GFC taken them down ? i remember when I was doing the YachtWorld circuit before we bought our girl that I spent some considerable time drooling over a couple of Euro boats that were of that semi classic style but very modern underwater.
> 
> I'll try and find them Beautiful boats, either steel or aluminium.
> 
> edit .... Bestewind was one of them .... the other boat in this pic is a Van de Stadt built by the same yard.
> 
> 
> 
> and this is the other ..... very similar to the previous boat Paulo posted or is it the same ? Not sure.
> 
> 
> 
> edit ... she's a Puffin 42


Yes, very nice boats, great steel and aluminium designers (with a long tradition) and some of the best metal and steel shipyards.

Also Dutch, I like this one it can be made in aluminium or steel but the one that is being built is in steel. I like the simplicity, the modern underbody and the classical looks:



Regards

Paulo


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Been cruising, you know, that activity which boats are supposed to be about. Unlike some , I haven't spent the last couple of weeks siting in front of a computer, giving advice on something I rarely experience.
> Internet access is shrinking in these islands.


"Cruising"? Never heard of it.

The boys and I will be doing a 150 mile off-shore delivery this weekend on a sailboat. But we'll be sailing.


----------



## bobperry

Great looking boats Paulo. I wish I could get a design commission like that.

Here is a nice alu boat I did with a Dutch builder.

I think you could make my pics look better. This boat is currently owned by a German family who is cuising full time. They love the boat.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Great looking boats Paulo. I wish I could get a design commission like that.
> 
> Here is a nice alu boat I did with a Dutch builder.
> 
> I think you could make my pics look better. This boat is currently owned by a German family who is cuising full time. They love the boat.


Wow - why have you been hiding this baby?????

Brent - take a look. This is a beautiful boat:


----------



## bobperry

Yeah Smackers, it's a honey. What can I say? I'm pretty good at this. I have worked very hard to get good at this. I'm proud of my work.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Great looking boats Paulo. I wish I could get a design commission like that.
> 
> Here is a nice alu boat I did with a Dutch builder.
> 
> I think you could make my pics look better. This boat is currently owned by a German family who is cuising full time. They love the boat.


Yes I can but you have to learn how to do it

Go here (or to a similar site):

Photobucket.com

Open an account (free), post there the photos and then post the link on the thread. You will get big photos.







Very nice boat. Only the keel does not make my style. But the design looks sharp. How many years has that design?

That was the type of boat that more than 10 years ago I thought I want. In fact I have modified an existent design and contacted the boat designer to see if it could be made. That's before the crisis and I had more money Anyway I quickly discover that was not really the boat I wanted and on the same type of boat (aluminium passage maker) I went for another design.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
On a blue water cruiser like this the boat has to be able to be set on it's keel at haul out. It is a low aspect ratio keel buit when you haul it out it cacn rest on the keel.

Plus,,,when you have restricted draft you need an effective low aspect ratio fin. I think I have that here.


----------



## tdw

Stepalah ..... drooling ..... very nice indeed BP.

btw ... Angantyr .... yes she still lives ... and quite perky with it.


----------



## jak3b

Nice sheer line Bob.I bet they love her.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> On a blue water cruiser like this the boat has to be able to be set on it's keel at haul out. It is a low aspect ratio keel buit when you haul it out it cacn rest on the keel.
> 
> Plus,,,when you have restricted draft you need an effective low aspect ratio fin. I think I have that here.


Yes, that is an option it has its advantages and disadvantages. I have seen other steel or aluminium bluewater boats with other keel options, even in what regards low draft. That option is not the one I prefer but as I said it has its advantages as you have pointed out.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Yeah Smackers, it's a honey. What can I say? I'm pretty good at this. I have worked very hard to get good at this. I'm proud of my work.


Yeah - but how much filler did you have to use?


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> Been cruising, you know, that activity which boats are supposed to be about. Unlike some , I haven't spent the last couple of weeks siting in front of a computer, giving advice on something I rarely experience.
> Internet access is shrinking in these islands.


Ok I will play.

Must be the only spot on the face of the world with shrinking Internet access? I cruise as well(ok not right now, broken boat) and interestingly there is only a couple of spots on the east coast of Australia where I haven't had coverage if I so desired.

As for sitting in front of the computer for weeks, I note that you post here far more frequently than I, and I actually try to come here as often as I can, because I like the place, the people and find the discussion complements my sailing rather than detracting from it.

Interestingly here and at CF( oh sorry they banned you didn't they) the most prolific posters are often(but not always) the F\T long term cruisers. This is all by and by and off topic, other than to suggest again that you stop spinning crap and insulting us every time you post.


----------



## SloopJonB

tdw said:


> Another old steeler.
> 
> This from I think the first edition of the Proper Yacht. From memory posted in an Anarchy thread on double enders. I have no idea if she still lives.


I saw some stuff on Angantyr on the web not all that long ago - she had been heavily or totally restored.

A real ship that one.


----------



## SloopJonB

chall03 said:


> Ok I will play.
> 
> Must be the only spot on the face of the world with shrinking Internet access? I cruise as well(ok not right now, broken boat) and interestingly there is only a couple of spots on the east coast of Australia where I haven't had coverage if I so desired.


My daughter just spent a year in Oz and we were shocked by how poor the Net access and telephone service was - very expensive and poor service/availability for both.

We all assumed that Oz would have facilities like all the other advanced countries but not so.

Apparently telecom services there are a government operation so......

She was on the east coast as well - Melbourne, Sydney etc.


----------



## bobperry

Wow, from the look of the hand on thwe wheel the boat looks nicely balanced. They ae cooking right along. Is that a McCleer and Harris design?

Stepalah has a new name now and has been repainted bright,,,,,,,,,red!


----------



## PCP

Andrews had already posted some of Dykstra designed aluminium classic looking passagemakers. Some more pictures, showing also their modern underbody.


----------



## chucklesR

chall03 said:


> Interestingly here and at CF( oh sorry they banned you didn't they) the most prolific posters are often(but not always) the F\T long term cruisers. This is all by and by and off topic, other than to suggest again that you stop spinning crap and insulting us every time you post.


Relax Chall, the more he insults the quicker to his next banning.

It's like pulling off a bandaid, better a *short* sharp pain to get over it.


----------



## chucklesR

> Only the keel does not make my style. But the design looks sharp. How many years has that design?


I mostly ignore this thread - but this one got me.
For a cruising boat - and let's be honest that's what these steel boats are - the longer, fuller hull is more optimal I would think. 
I'd rather a boat that tended to keep her head where I put here than one that turned on a dime.


----------



## bobperry

Chuckles:
But you are laboring under a false assumption. You are equating directional stability with having a long keel. That's just not so. The boats I know with the best directional stability have small-ish keels and nice, big spade rudders well aft. They turn on a dime and they hold a straight course. I've done dozens of boats like this. Look at the Valiant 40. It has a relatively small keel like STEPALAH's but it is renowned for its directional stability.


----------



## Tanton

Well I have joined the Steel Pros and Cons Sailnet Forum. I could not refuse after Bob Perry called me to contribute. I do not know though, how long it will take to simply review 189 pages and still have something to say. Ah! Ah!


----------



## PCP

Welcome to sailnet.... again and to this thread in particular.

I hope you will not stick only around the "Pros and cons of steel sailboats" thread. All threads will benefit from your participation.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

chucklesR said:


> ....
> I mostly ignore this thread - but this one got me.
> 
> *PCP : But the design looks sharp. How many years has that design?*
> ....


Just to be clear what I meant with that is saying that 10 years old design (I have searched) looks "sharp", meaning contemporary.







Regards

Paulo


----------



## Jeff_H

Tanton said:


> Well I have joined the Steel Pros and Cons Sailnet Forum. I could not refuse after Bob Perry called me to contribute. I do not know though, how long it will take to simply review 189 pages and still have something to say. Ah! Ah!


I too am delighted to see you here. Welcome and thank you.

Jeff


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
Where did you find those photos? That design is 10 years old now. You are the King of Research.

Bon soire Yves-Marie good to see you here.

Jeff:
"Mad thank you"? You're telling me you are already mad at Yves-Marie? We haven't even started fighting yet.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> Where did you find those photos?


Do you want me to revel my sources?

I have told you that 10 years ago I was thinking in building an aluminium passagemaker, that included a research about the best shipyards to build an aluminium boat

http://www.jachtbouwfolmer.com/

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
Hell no. Don't reveal your sources. I am just amazed at the esoteric information you are able to find.

I love looking at alu construction pics. Alu looks beautiful in the build stage.

Carry on.


----------



## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> Where did you find those photos? That design is 10 years old now. You are the King of Research.
> 
> Bon soire Yves-Marie good to see you here.
> 
> Jeff:
> "Mad thank you"? You're telling me you are already mad at Yves-Marie? We haven't even started fighting yet.


That's the problem of mistyping on an IPad. It is guaranteed to auto-correct to somethi silly.

It's corrected now.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> Hell no. Don't reveal your sources....


I was just kidding, I did post the source, the Folmer shipyard portfolio:

Jachtbouw Folmer, custom designed aluminum yachts.

Jachtbouw Folmer, custom designed aluminum yachts.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## xymotic

I started a thread in general Mainenace, but I guess maybe I should ask here too.

I had plans to build a 5-10HP DIY water cooled Diesel machine to do 12v power generation, and maybe compressed air and possibly even make water.

What complicates that is that I also want to be able to weld.

SO the "easy" solution would be a regular AC genset, and electrically power the other stuff.

But I'm also thinking something like a premier power welder would give me stick and at least DC TIG. Might be good enough though I'd like to do AC for Aluminum.

Are any of you guys with Metal boats doing something cool creative to carry welding gear relatively compactly?


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Chuckles:
> But you are laboring under a false assumption. You are equating directional stability with having a long keel. That's just not so. The boats I know with the best directional stability have small-ish keels and nice, big spade rudders well aft. They turn on a dime and they hold a straight course. I've done dozens of boats like this. Look at the Valiant 40. It has a relatively small keel like STEPALAH's but it is renowned for its directional stability.


Well said Bob! Right on!
If a boat sails 5 keel lengths in the time it takes to broach, and wanders only 5 degees per keel length, that is still 50 degrees off course ! For a 30 ft long keel, that's only a sailing distance of 150 feet! Dont expect the relativey short comparative length of a full length keel to make any significant difference in that distance. Hull shape and hull balance makes a huge diference, keel length ; minimal difference, if any. A full length keel will do nothing to compensate for poor hull balance. 
What it will give you is around 350 pounds of useless weight in the stern of a steel boat, an area which is almost impossible to access for maintenance, and which is too far aft to use for tankage , without putting excessive weight in the stern, where you need it least . In a steel boat, it is also a lot more work to build a full length keel


----------



## Brent Swain

xymotic said:


> I started a thread in general Mainenace, but I guess maybe I should ask here too.
> 
> I had plans to build a 5-10HP DIY water cooled Diesel machine to do 12v power generation, and maybe compressed air and possibly even make water.
> 
> What complicates that is that I also want to be able to weld.
> 
> SO the "easy" solution would be a regular AC genset, and electrically power the other stuff.
> 
> But I'm also thinking something like a premier power welder would give me stick and at least DC TIG. Might be good enough though I'd like to do AC for Aluminum.
> 
> Are any of you guys with Metal boats doing something cool creative to carry welding gear relatively compactly?


I just posted a solution, on another thread on this site. A freind put a water cooled welder on his boat. Doesnt work when the boat is out of the water, so it's useless for welding on zincs, or any other welding below the waterline, a huge inconvenience.


----------



## Brent Swain

Tanton said:


> Well I have joined the Steel Pros and Cons Sailnet Forum. I could not refuse after Bob Perry called me to contribute. I do not know though, how long it will take to simply review 189 pages and still have something to say. Ah! Ah!


Wecome aboard ! Great to have someone else here with origami steel boat experience! It gets kinda lonely here , discussing steel boats, as the only guy posting here with extensive experience with building, maintaining and cruising in steel boats, amid the jeering catcalls from those who know little about the subject.
Pardon us for "taking funny."


----------



## Brent Swain

The October issue of Ocean Navigator has a geat article on the re-building of the classic 141 ft schooner " Columbia" in steel, along with some great photos. They used the gray , cold galvanizing primer , on wheelabraded steel ,the same stuff I used on mine 29 years ago, 99% of which is as good as the day I got it from the steel suppliers. 
She is 5/16th hull plate and 1/4 inch deck plate , A-36 steel, common mild steel.
The hull looks like she doesnt have a lot of compound curve in her, only a bit in the topsides, so should be easy to plate, enabling them to use long plates and fewer seams .
The lack of longitudinals will make distortion much harder to control. When they talk about "Fairing " it is not clear whether they mean fairing the steel ,or filler.T-shaping the frames makes them far stronger. 
Sadly ,they talk about covering the decks with teak, a huge mistake. Any wood on the outside of a steel boat is a huge mistake, with more maintenace and corrosion along the edges of the wood ,than on the rest of the boat combined. 1/4 inch deck plate gives them more forgivenes than on smaller boats , but only for a while.
At any rate, it looks like an interesting project.


----------



## Brent Swain

tdw said:


> Another old steeler.
> 
> This from I think the first edition of the Proper Yacht. From memory posted in an Anarchy thread on double enders. I have no idea if she still lives.


There is a sistership of Angantyre for sale in Comox BC, possibly by Wills Marine. She is extremely well done, and recently given a mirror finish at Ocean Pacific in Campbell River. A very thorough , and practical welder fitter named Chuck Birchill bought the partly finished hull from a school teacher in Ladysmith BC and finished her extremely well .


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> But Brent, you come back from cruising the same angry little man. I don't think cruising is good for you. It seems to make you very uptight. Chill, relax in front of a computer for a few days. Learn to make a nice drawing. You will feel better.
> 
> Things have been going well here for a few days. I don't think we need your constant attacks on everything not BS. You are a bore.


"Anyone who dissagrees with me is angry,or they would simply agree with everything."
Bob the shrink.


----------



## Brent Swain

bfloyd4445 said:


> Sounds like the way I would have to sail. Thanks fir the info, Looked at an old westsail 32 original owner yesterday that is building his own steel 53 footer. I didn't think the boat was gonna be worth anything and does need a complete refit but the hull looks like a ten year old well maintainedl all original gellcoat never painted. Really nice hull but the rest of the boat was in need of replaceing, at least that's what it looked like to me. Can you imaging an old guy late sixtires building a 53 foot...I think he said ketch.


I cant imagine it . I sure dont want to build any more boats. Just turned down a couple of boats . I'll stick to jobs I can do in a couple of days, max.
Sale of books and plans , plus full pension soon, is all the money than I need.
Cant imagine why he would want a boat that big!


----------



## desert rat

I know nothing. I have wanted to mention this for several days. On page 153 of sailboats and auxiliaries you can build - Coot - a 27 foot skipjack schooner, a build it yourself plan by William Atkin. Would this look beautiful at 32 or 34 foot in modern materials? Forgive my foot in mouth, but everyone else is doing it. The more beautiful ideas I see (like silver) the happier I am. Feel free to throw rocks.


----------



## Jeff_H

desert rat said:


> I know nothing. I have wanted to mention this for several days. On page 153 of sailboats and auxiliaries you can build - Coot - a 27 foot skipjack schooner, a build it yourself plan by William Atkin. Would this look beautiful at 32 or 34 foot in modern materials? Forgive my foot in mouth, but everyone else is doing it. The more beautiful ideas I see (like silver) the happier I am. Feel free to throw rocks.


One of the virtues of the skipjack hull form is that they are very easy to construct using conventional wood construction with a cross planked bottom. This made the type fast and cheap to build. While they can be adapted to sheet materials (plywood, steel, aluminum) it is very difficult to achieve the subtle shapes at the bow which were literally carved out of a big block of wood.

It would not make sense to build a skipjack in anything more exotic than simple sheet materials because the skipjack hull form just is not that well rounded or suitable for a cruiser a shape for a boat. It's important to understand that the skipjack is a highly evolved type that was developed for a very specific purpose that required a lot of initial stability, shallow draft, the ability to beam reach very powerfully with minimal heel, and an ability to deal with a short chop.

It is a hull form that has limited applicability, and which really is not so great when exposed to big waves, or the kinds of condition that are likely to be encountered on a cruising boat. Smaller skipjack types tend to have an uncomfortable motion, limited angles of positive stability, and very limited seakeeping capabilities. They do not tolerate a lot of freeboard and have shallow hulls making it very hard to get headroom and tankage.

Over time as skip jack hull forms were adapted to cruising yachts they became narrower and better ballasted. A good example of that type would be something like the Seabird Yawl or Wittholz's Destination.

While the schooner rig is beautiful to look at, it's very hard to get well rounded performance out of one, and they are comparatively expensive to build and maintain.

There have been a lot of attempts to evolve oyster boats to cruisers but some of the more effective attempts have been based on the sharpies. You might look up 'Badger'.

Jeff


----------



## desert rat

TY Jeff
That helps me understand why there are not thousands of these boats on the4 water.
I will spend many days researching the evolution of the skipjack hull form, and I am 
going to practice (at least try) calculateing center of effort, and center of resistance on different rigs. TY again.
WEW


----------



## bobperry

"I am going to practice (at least try) calculateing center of effort, and center of resistance on different rigs"

Desert: I understand what you are trying to do but consider this as you proceed:

How are you going to do that? A sail is not a 2 dimensional shape laying flat on the boat's centerline. A sail is three dimensional and never laying flat on the boat's centerline. You can play with geometry and find the centroid of the different plans forms but I don't think this gives you an understanding of the center of pressure. It's the center of pressure that is at work. Not the center of the 2D area. I'm not sure what you mean by "center of resistance".


----------



## desert rat

I will start with simple calculations and compare them with what really happens, 
above (center of effort), and below(center of resistance), the waterline. As i add more and more variables it will quickly get beyond the reasonable effort for a learning exercise. Calculus with 2 or 3 variables begins to hurt my head. Jeff pointed me at oyster boats (skipjack) I will go through all the sailing designs i can find of skipjack hulls. I fear4 I may end up looking at drawings of some of those lovely racing boats PCP keeps posting videos of.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> "I am going to practice (at least try) calculateing center of effort, and center of resistance on different rigs"
> 
> Desert: I understand what you are trying to do but consider this as you proceed:
> 
> How are you going to do that? A sail is not a 2 dimensional shape laying flat on the boat's centerline. A sail is three dimensional and never laying flat on the boat's centerline. You can play with geometry and find the centroid of the different plans forms but I don't think this gives you an understanding of the center of pressure. It's the center of pressure that is at work. Not the center of the 2D area. I'm not sure what you mean by "center of resistance".


Right on!
The 2D profile has nothing to do with the centre of pressure. We consider the centre of lift on an airplane wing ,a point 20% back from the leading edge of a wing, not the centre of area. The well rounded forefoot of a boat has almost zero lateral resistance , but shows up on a 2D profile cutout. A balanced rudder has the axis around 24% back from the leading edge, not in the middle.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> There is a sistership of Angantyre for sale in Comox BC, possibly by Wills Marine. She is extremely well done, and recently given a mirror finish at Ocean Pacific in Campbell River. A very thorough , and practical welder fitter named Chuck Birchill bought the partly finished hull from a school teacher in Ladysmith BC and finished her extremely well .


I took a look at the Wills site - she looks nicely done but is hardly more than a "wet kit" - for nearly 1/2 $mil.


----------



## bobperry

Desert:
I think if you establish a method of measurement and stay with that method and slowly accumulate enough results from a wide variety of boats you may have something useful for comparisons.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Chuckles:
> But you are laboring under a false assumption. You are equating directional stability with having a long keel. That's just not so. The boats I know with the best directional stability have small-ish keels and nice, big spade rudders well aft. They turn on a dime and they hold a straight course. I've done dozens of boats like this. Look at the Valiant 40. It has a relatively small keel like STEPALAH's but it is renowned for its directional stability.





Brent Swain said:


> Well said Bob! Right on!
> If a boat sails 5 keel lengths in the time it takes to broach, and wanders only 5 degees per keel length, that is still 50 degrees off course ! For a 30 ft long keel, that's only a sailing distance of 150 feet! Dont expect the relativey short comparative length of a full length keel to make any significant difference in that distance. Hull shape and hull balance makes a huge diference, keel length ; minimal difference, if any. A full length keel will do nothing to compensate for poor hull balance.
> What it will give you is around 350 pounds of useless weight in the stern of a steel boat, an area which is almost impossible to access for maintenance, and which is too far aft to use for tankage , without putting excessive weight in the stern, where you need it least . In a steel boat, it is also a lot more work to build a full length keel


It seems that you two finally agree on something and it is a thing that many, I would say less informed, members, would tend not to agree, I mean that a long keel boat is not necessarily more stable than a fin keel boat. Me and Jeff are also saying that for a long time.

I hope this settles the question, unless it is needed Tanton to say the same for you all to be convinced and put an end to that unsubstantiated dogma.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

I think if I owned an old fashioned full keel boat I would name it:
UNSUBSTANTIATED DOGMA

Great boat name.


----------



## bfloyd4445

Brent Swain said:


> I cant imagine it . I sure dont want to build any more boats. Just turned down a couple of boats . I'll stick to jobs I can do in a couple of days, max.
> Sale of books and plans , plus full pension soon, is all the money than I need.
> Cant imagine why he would want a boat that big!


off topic, sorry.
I asked myself the same questions but was polite enough not to ask. His 32 didn't have any electronics but he had sailed it to NZ and other places in the pacific.

sounds like you have a great plan. Since I retired I just play with my toys and wander here and there doing what ever strikes my fancy at the moment. Don't live high on the hog but I eat the best parts.....


----------



## bfloyd4445

PCP said:


> It seems that you two finally agree on something and it is a thing that many, I would say less informed, members, would tend not to agree, I mean that a long keel boat is not necessarily more stable than a fin keel boat. Me and Jeff are also saying that for a long time.
> 
> I hope this settles the question, unless it is needed Tanton to say the same for you all to be convinced and put an end to that unsubstantiated dogma.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


.....laughing so hard.....thanks Paulo...Please, I'm an uninformed member not less informed < Bob will most certainly agree with this>and trying to correct this handicap. However, I do understand how much Bob and Brent love each other.....chuckle....


----------



## bfloyd4445

off topic
This thread is one of the best ever. I hardly read any posts in this thread that don't force my lazy brain to think.....well almost all of them.....
Just wanted to thank you all for forcing me to use me pea brain....and maybe actually learn sumtin....


----------



## SloopJonB

bfloyd4445 said:


> Since I retired I just play with my toys and wander here and there doing what ever strikes my fancy at the moment. Don't live high on the hog but I eat the best parts.....


Ditto.


----------



## Lou452

This is a huge thread ! since the cold is coming to my area I now have more time to read. One little Article I just finished had a steal sail boat exploring around Greenland. 
Would it be a proper assumption that steal boats are better suited for cold water adventure ? 
Good day, Lou


----------



## bobperry

"Would it be a proper assumption that steal boats are better suited for cold water adventure ? "

No, not at all. It is always better if you pay for your boat.


----------



## PCP

Lou452 said:


> ... One little Article I just finished had a steal sail boat exploring around Greenland.
> Would it be a proper assumption that steal boats are better suited for cold water adventure ?
> Good day, Lou


Bob is joking again

You mean obviously steel sailboats.

Yes, normally sailboats for Antarctic or Arctic expeditions are made of Aluminium or Steel. Steel is by far the most used material for that.

It is also the material used on boats that make "charter" on the Antarctic or Arctic. If the boat is not professionally used, meaning heavy duty for a long time, I mean for pleasure boats whose owners want to sail one or two times on high latitudes, the more common choice is aluminium. An aluminium boat is much faster than a steel boat, not as strong but stronger than a wood or fiberglass boat, namely in what regards ice contact.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Me?
Joke?


----------



## blt2ski

bobperry said:


> Me?
> Joke?


Yeah YOU!

Of course you would not try to steal a steel boat! But I would bet you would try to steal a FRP/GRP or equal boat! But then we would not be talking about a steal or steel boat now would we?!?!?!?!

With that, how is the aruminum boat coming along?


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Yeah YOU!
> 
> Of course you would not try to steal a steel boat! But I would bet you would try to steal a FRP/GRP or equal boat! But then we would not be talking about a steal or steel boat now would we?!?!?!?!
> 
> With that, how is the aruminum boat coming along?


I bet Lou speaks more languages than you or Bob

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Quinn99

Wow - epic thread!


----------



## blt2ski

PCP said:


> I bet Lou speaks more languages than you or Bob
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


You mean there are more than one language out there!?!?!?!? nooooooooooo!!!!!

Could be, I did manage to flunk a french class in high school, along with an english class or two or three.....not sure how I did that, something about improper grammer or some such thing.......

I guess my Welsh born Grandma did not teach me english well enough.......Now come to think of it, Welsh would be celtek or some kind of spelling like that.......Nor am I an orator like a great x6 family member, John Philpot Curran (24 July 1750 - 14 October 1817.

Marty


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Bought my boat through anchor yachts.he also is dealer for waterline in New England . The waterlines are drop dead gorgeous but unfortunately too dear for my wallet. There is no reason a metal boat need be ugly.look forward to M.Tautons input.always loved his inventiveness .


Apart from mine, Waterlines are the only well built steel boats in BC, apart from home built boats . They are extremely well built, and fair ,before the paint goes on. Its been decades since I have seen any smaller waterlines built. Most newer ones are huge.They have progressed a lot, eliminating wood for stainless trim, a huge improvement.
However ,for a boat the size of my 36 ,I understand they want over a quarter million dollars .All of mine get built for a fraction that amount. Steve on Silas Crosby talked to Waterline first , got a quote ,then gave me a call, and we got started .Steve, after cruising the BC coast for many years , then to Mexico , Hawaii and back to BC, then to Cape Horn then the Aleutians and back to BC , is extremely happy with his choice.
Used Waterlines , much lower priced than new ones, can be a good deal.
Waterline side decks on 35 footers can be a bit narrow ,but I'm sure they would build them wider, on request.


----------



## skygazer

*Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats ??QUESTION??*

??QUESTION??

SLIPPERY!! This morning at 27° F. there is glaze ice on the side decks of my boat, everywhere actually. FRP is slippery!!! Only carefully keeping the edge of my foot planted against the toe rail kept me from falling overboard. A little pitch is necessary to drain the water, but it wants to pitch me off the boat this AM. Zippo traction.

While it is obvious that steel is stronger than FRP or wood for hitting ice floes, and preferred for high latitudes, it seems it would also ice up quicker and hold it longer.

??How is this handled on a small steel boat?? Not a big ship, but a personal cruising type sailboat. Wearing cleats won't help much on steel.

I've never been on a small steel boat, so I have no idea.

By the way, I never expect to own a steel boat, but this thread is quite interesting.


----------



## smackdaddy

Crampons don't hurt steel.


----------



## Brent Swain

*Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats ??QUESTION??*



skygazer said:


> ??QUESTION??
> 
> SLIPPERY!! This morning at 27° F. there is glaze ice on the side decks of my boat, everywhere actually. FRP is slippery!!! Only carefully keeping the edge of my foot planted against the toe rail kept me from falling overboard. A little pitch is necessary to drain the water, but it wants to pitch me off the boat this AM. Zippo traction.
> 
> While it is obvious that steel is stronger than FRP or wood for hitting ice floes, and preferred for high latitudes, it seems it would also ice up quicker and hold it longer.
> 
> ??How is this handled on a small steel boat?? Not a big ship, but a personal cruising type sailboat. Wearing cleats won't help much on steel.
> 
> I've never been on a small steel boat, so I have no idea.
> 
> By the way, I never expect to own a steel boat, but this thread is quite interesting.


 On any boat, 34 inch high solid lifelines, help a lot, giving you something solid, at waist height , to hold onto, as do 24 inch wide side decks ,which enable you to remain upright, giving you better balance. 
Springy, knee high trip wires you see on most stock boats, with side decks so narrow you have to do gymnastics to go forward, don't help much


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> I took a look at the Wills site - she looks nicely done but is hardly more than a "wet kit" - for nearly 1/2 $mil.


She is anything but a wet kit, has been finished for years . A fortune was spent on her at Ocean Pacific in the last year or two, including that super mirror finish paint job.


----------



## Brent Swain

PCP said:


> It seems that you two finally agree on something and it is a thing that many, I would say less informed, members, would tend not to agree, I mean that a long keel boat is not necessarily more stable than a fin keel boat. Me and Jeff are also saying that for a long time.
> 
> I hope this settles the question, unless it is needed Tanton to say the same for you all to be convinced and put an end to that unsubstantiated dogma.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I will always agree with Bob, or anyone else, when they get it right, and disagree when they get it wrong. I always have and always will.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I will always agree with Bob, or anyone else, when they get it right, and disagree when they get it wrong. I always have and always will.


I think that's very fair. That's what we all do...disagree when someone gets it wrong. The key is to do it with as much fact as possible - not just opinion. This thread is a great example of that.

I'm psyched that M. Tanton is here. I'm really looking forward to hearing his thoughts on all this. It's turned into a fantastic thread.


----------



## Brent Swain

It's kinda hard for someone with zero steel boat experience and almost zero long term cruising or steel boat maintenance experience, to have much to offer in the way of "facts". It's also hard to believe any "Facts " presented by someone who makes up a random number for how many boats a builder has built , then claims its a more accurate number than the builder gives, or who takes a comment from a discussion of religion, and posts it as a comment about steel boats. One would be extremely unwise to consider ANYTHING from such a source as "Facts."


----------



## bobperry

There you go off getting angry again Brent. Calm down. Everything will be fine.

Would you please post some photos of your 34" high solid life "lines"? I'd like to see how they look. I know you have problems posting pics but give it a shot it's not that hard. I can almost do it.

I'm working hard on my new 46'er. It will not have solid pipe lifelines 34" high. But I'd like to see how Brent does it and achieves a yacht quaility aesthetic.


----------



## bfloyd4445

smackdaddy said:


> Crampons don't hurt steel.


But they may scratch it. How would you remove the scratches?


----------



## bobperry

Hey Smackers:
Do those come in a size 15? I got some nasty big feet.

Floyd:
Don't think of it as scratches. Just think of it as more fairing.


----------



## tommays

I have seen pictures of a Brent boat railing system and while it does NOT meet classic looks

It is a completely practical and SAFE system 





My Cal with the 2" X 4 " stanchion bases and most other good looking boats leave the factory with lifeline systems that fail all the time because of tiny stanchion bases

In general most owners have a fit if someone even touches the stanchion while there docking because there afraid there going to break


----------



## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> Crampons don't hurt steel.


A guy invented a kind of those shoes to go up the mast. No they don't hurt the mast and they seem a good idea to me. Maybe is this time I get something that allows to pull up my 93kg to the top of my big mast. I have tried other systems but end up being tired at the middle. Well, my 18 years old soon tried it and had done no better

Maybe he shows that in Dusseldorf, I would like to try them.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

I think these solid pipe lifelines may be a part of the gross tonnage rule. If 34" is good. Why isn't 44" even better?

Mine goes to 11.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> She is anything but a wet kit, has been finished for years . A fortune was spent on her at Ocean Pacific in the last year or two, including that super mirror finish paint job.


She may be "finished" to your standards Brent but I doubt many of the people here would regard anything but the outside as being finished. That interior barely qualifies as roughed in (to the rest of us).


----------



## bobperry

Kind of makes you wonder what the definition of "yacht" is. I will grant you that it is a boat. I think Brent designs boats certainly not yachts.. 

Not a bad looking cabin trunk though. The cockpit is a bit wanky with no well and everyone exposed. Maybe that's the way BS likes them. This type of outcome is just what I would expect when you sell inadequate plans very cheaply to people with no comprehension of what it will cost to actually finish their "boat". You can't sail "the philosophy". You can't go anywhere on a dream. I don't give a rats' ass how high your life lines are. And when you are done and the dream disintegrates you are left with a boat you can't sell. Nobody wants it at any price. It's a child that only the mother can love. It's pretty damn sad.


----------



## desert rat

Just a coat of white paint would make the interior look a world better. Do you design the cabinets to fit between the ribs or just fill it out with insulation and go from there?


----------



## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> Hey Smackers:
> Do those come in a size 15? I got some nasty big feet.
> 
> Floyd:
> Don't think of it as scratches. Just think of it as more fairing.


I can see the attraction for yacht builders. Those things are a cost cutting tool to get the customer to texture their own decks saving build money for the grog fund


----------



## bobperry

"I can see the attraction for yacht builders. Those things are a cost cutting tool to get the customer to texture their own decks saving build money for the grog fund "

I don't get it. Are you talking about my huge feet. I was a very good swimmer.


----------



## Jeff_H

Is it just me, or has anyone else noted that the original poster started this thread in November of last year and hasn't been back since January? He hasn't even logged on SailNet since February. Talk about a thread taking on a life of its own.


----------



## bobperry

"Bring out your dead!"


----------



## smackdaddy

Jeff_H said:


> Is it just me, or has anyone else noted that the original poster started this thread in November of last year and hasn't been back since January? He hasn't even logged on SailNet since February. Talk about a thread taking on a life of its own.


With the likes of Perry and Tanton...it's a very rich life.

The OP is missing out.


----------



## chall03

Jeff_H said:


> Is it just me, or has anyone else noted that the original poster started this thread in November of last year and hasn't been back since January? He hasn't even logged on SailNet since February. Talk about a thread taking on a life of its own.


His username was Captainquiet


----------



## blt2ski

That BP boat looks less nice than a shack down on the Bayou! With a gator below as bait! or some such thing.........Me recalls my Glen-L 8 ball I built about 6th grade had a nicer interior than that boat, or the slightly larger Glen-L 12 had a bit more room, still nicer interior............

Marty


----------



## PCP

chall03 said:


> His username was Captainquiet


The truth is that regarding the original question, after not many pages this thread become pretty useless and sometimes nasty, so why should he continue to follow his thread?

Probably went away pissed with the out of topic big slide.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

"That BP boat looks '

Hang on there Marty. That is not a BP boat.


----------



## Jabberwock

bobperry said:


> "Bring out your dead!"


Who's that there?.....I dunno, must be a king......Why?.....He hasn't got s#*t all over him.


----------



## djodenda

Help, Help, I'm being repressed!


----------



## smackdaddy

PCP said:


> The truth is that regarding the original question, after not many pages this thread become pretty useless and sometimes nasty, so why should he continue to follow his thread?
> 
> Probably went away pissed with the out of topic big slide.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I don't know where you see it going off the rails. But I actually resurrected this thread at post 71 (5 months after it sunk beneath the waves). I did so primarily because of the over-the-top slagging going on in this thread:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailb...38-bob-perrys-take-wolfenzees-dream-boat.html

But, I also wanted to really work through the Pros and Cons of steel sailboats by finding real examples from real people building and/or sailing them. I'd say that was about as on-topic as you can get. I think it's been very informative.


----------



## Faster

SloopJonB said:


> She may be "finished" to your standards Brent but I doubt many of the people here would regard anything but the outside as being finished. That interior barely qualifies as roughed in (to the rest of us).


I've been looking at that boat in Comox every August wondering what it's story was.. From the listing it's not a BS boat.

Custom 58 ft. off shore - 1984 Used Boats For Sale | Comox, British Columbia

Indeed a very fine finish and lots of good gear, though the entire rig looks cobbled together from aluminum pipe, certainly not any kind of usual mast section. As Sloop's and the listing pics indicate she's barely roughed in below. She's been there for at least 3 years now..


----------



## bobperry

Faster:
At that price it will be there at least another three years. The design credit is confusing. They list an Italian designer then say it's a sister ship to the McCleer and Harris boat.


----------



## PCP

Faster said:


> I've been looking at that boat in Comox every August wondering what it's story was.. From the listing it's not a BS boat.
> 
> Custom 58 ft. off shore - 1984 Used Boats For Sale | Comox, British Columbia
> 
> Indeed a very fine finish and lots of good gear, though the entire rig looks cobbled together from aluminum pipe, certainly not any kind of usual mast section. As Sloop's and the listing pics indicate she's barely roughed in below. She's been there for at least 3 years now..


That is a very expensive boat for the kind of boat that is (steel and not made by a known and reputable shipyard, old). Don't think that it will sell for half that price.

Look at some others and the price:

Steel Schooner Blue water cruiser Boats for Sale

Steel Looe Lugger Boats for Sale

Steel Motor Sailer 38 Boats for Sale

Steel Sloop Boats for Sale

Steel Schooner Colvin-designed Pinky Schooner Boats for Sale

and even some relatively nice ones

Used Dutch Round Bilge Steel Ketch for Sale | Yachts For Sale | Yachthub

NOORDKAPER 40 sailing yacht for sale | De Valk Yacht broker - Jachtmakelaar

KOOPMANS 45 sailing yacht for sale | De Valk Yacht broker - Jachtmakelaar

CUMULANT 45M sailing yacht for sale | De Valk Yacht broker - Jachtmakelaar

CARENA 44 PILOTHOUSE sailing yacht for sale | De Valk Yacht broker - Jachtmakelaar

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

I agree with you Paulo. It's a shame.


----------



## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> "I can see the attraction for yacht builders. Those things are a cost cutting tool to get the customer to texture their own decks saving build money for the grog fund "
> 
> I don't get it. Are you talking about my huge feet. I was a very good swimmer.


I wouldn't bet on that. If your such a good swimmer why would you ever need a sailboat?.....or was it cause you found yourself spending lots of time in the water so had to be a good swimmer ............hummm.....


----------



## smackdaddy

bfloyd4445 said:


> I wouldn't bet on that. If your such a good swimmer why would you ever need a sailboat?.....or was it cause you found yourself spending lots of time in the water so had to be a good swimmer ............hummm.....


Sometimes you don't make a lot of sense bfly.


----------



## Brent Swain

tommays said:


> I have seen pictures of a Brent boat railing system and while it does NOT meet classic looks
> 
> It is a completely practical and SAFE system
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My Cal with the 2" X 4 " stanchion bases and most other good looking boats leave the factory with lifeline systems that fail all the time because of tiny stanchion bases
> 
> In general most owners have a fit if someone even touches the stanchion while there docking because there afraid there going to break


"Classic looks" and "Good Seamanship" are often polar opposites. Even with classically flimsy "Classic Look" bases , putting on a solid top rail supports the stanchion from both ends, drastically reducing loads and movement on the bases, reducing the odds of them leaking or breaking. 
I have never wanted to see my boat sailing away from me in mid ocean, for the sake of her looking "Classic " in the process. Advocating such priorities is advocating bad seamanship. 
I wouldn't want to work for anyone that dense.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> There you go off getting angry again Brent. Calm down. Everything will be fine.
> 
> Would you please post some photos of your 34" high solid life "lines"? I'd like to see how they look. I know you have problems posting pics but give it a shot it's not that hard. I can almost do it.
> 
> I'm working hard on my new 46'er. It will not have solid pipe lifelines 34" high. But I'd like to see how Brent does it and achieves a yacht quaility aesthetic.


Remind me in a couple of weeks when I get back to town. Or you can see them on the origamiboats site, in the photos section. They are not all that visible or obtrusive. You barely notice them from even a very short distance.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> She may be "finished" to your standards Brent but I doubt many of the people here would regard anything but the outside as being finished. That interior barely qualifies as roughed in (to the rest of us).


I never had a look inside since the refit. Doesn't look spray foamed . Too bad.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> I think these solid pipe lifelines may be a part of the gross tonnage rule. If 34" is good. Why isn't 44" even better?
> 
> Mine goes to 11.


34 inches is easy to climb over, but close enough to your centre of gravity to give you a huge and realistic sense of security. 44 inches is extremely hard to climb over. At deep sea, I run a high rope lifeline, about chest height, from my aft canopy to the shrouds then down to the bow pulpit. There, it is never in the way. I take it down in port.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Kind of makes you wonder what the definition of "yacht" is. I will grant you that it is a boat. I think Brent designs boats certainly not yachts..
> 
> Not a bad looking cabin trunk though. The cockpit is a bit wanky with no well and everyone exposed. Maybe that's the way BS likes them. This type of outcome is just what I would expect when you sell inadequate plans very cheaply to people with no comprehension of what it will cost to actually finish their "boat". You can't sail "the philosophy". You can't go anywhere on a dream. I don't give a rats' ass how high your life lines are. And when you are done and the dream disintegrates you are left with a boat you can't sell. Nobody wants it at any price. It's a child that only the mother can love. It's pretty damn sad.


I had nothing to do with this design.It was a Maclear and Harris design.


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
I was being facetious.


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
I never thought that McCleer and Harris boat was yours. It didn't have your,,,,,oh,,,,how you say,,,,,,,,,,,well, you know what I mean.

But I'm still confused with the Italian designer credit.


----------



## bfloyd4445

smackdaddy said:


> Sometimes you don't make a lot of sense bfly.


off topic

Thanks Bob, for recognizing I make a little sense. A little sense is better than nonsense

B


----------



## bobperry

"Thanks Bob, for recognizing I make a little sense. A little sense is better than nonsense "

Floyd, I didn't say that Smack did. But I agree with Smack, sometimes you make some sense.

Or to quote my very favorite Steve Martin quote:
"Some people have a way with words. Other people not have way."


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I have never wanted to see my boat sailing away from me in mid ocean, for the sake of her looking "Classic " in the process. *Advocating such priorities is advocating bad seamanship.*


Making stanchions/lifelines taller so one "won't fall over while standing up" is actually a dangerous design IMUSO. One's center-of-gravity should be as low as possible while going forward. And, in challenging conditions, one should be clipped in. This is good seamanship - because this is physics. Most sailors (especially bowmen) know this. Typical stanchions/lifelines are designed for this low-center-of-gravity standard of good seamanship. That's why you see it virtually everywhere.

One might say that "Advocating other priorities is advocating bad seamanship."


----------



## outbound

Got up yesterday morning early in order to have little/no wind taking the genny down (boat to be out of water for further fittings etc). Deck was a skating rink. 
On GFP boats have diamond pattern in tooling which gives some traction but on metal boats I've seen depend on treadmaster or the like or "poisoning" the paint with walnut shells or microballons. 
Love to lie on the for deck and read or nap underway. Find all the deck treatments except molded in patterns too abrasive. Wonder if you steel construction buffs are aware of any new treatments which are more user friendly?


----------



## Tim Newman

bobperry said:


> Kind of makes you wonder what the definition of "yacht" is. I will grant you that it is a boat. I think Brent designs boats certainly not yachts..


Quite. I'm somewhat of a lurker on here, not much of a sailor, but I've read most of this thread...

And yes, it is possible to build a tank of a boat and supplement it with parts scrounged from a scrapheap which can just about be called a "yacht". However, most people don't want to take this approach to boating, and aesthetics on yachts are considered by most to be hugely important. Certainly, it is the aesthetics of yachts which first attracted me to them.

By way of analogy, I used to be a Land Rover enthusiast, and bought an old 1973 Series III ex-military Lightweight. It was a beast of a machine, huge girders welded into a ladder for a chassis, leaf springs off a bus, bull-bars from the set of Mad Max II, it was indestructible. I had heaps of fun fixing it up myself and hanging out with the other Land Rover enthusiasts, and although it looked rough and handled even worse, there was a certain beauty in its simplicity and ruggedness.

That said, I didn't spend half my time trying to explain to Porsche owners that although their cars may look much better, they would come off second best in an argument with a breeze-block wall...something which (I proved this) would not be the case with my Land Rover. Different people like different cars for different reasons, aesthetics are very important to some people, ruggedness and simplicity for others, and you make compromises on different qualities to find something suitable for the discerning individual.

It's why I find Brent's protestations on here odd: it's like a Land Rover owner trying to persuade Ducati riders of the virtues of four wheels and a chassis left over from a Victorian railway bridge. I'm actually quite impressed by the ingenuity of the home-made steel boats, and the reusing of scrap metal to make all the various bits, it is an interesting and innovative way to get yourself out to sea and requires no small amount of skill (I'm an engineer myself). But the vast majority of people don't want a boat which looks as though it was constructed during an episode of Scrapheap Challenge, even if it means that they could potentially come off second best against a stubbornly unsympathetic shipping container idling in the bay. Each to their own, and all that.


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## bobperry

I want a 1955 Oldsmobile like I had in high school. That's a far better car than a stinky Porsche. Huge back seat.


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## PCP

bobperry said:


> I want a 1955 Oldsmobile like I had in high school. That's a far better car than a stinky Porsche. Huge back seat.


Of course but you forget the essential, it is also as faster, more comfortable on a bumpy road and more beautiful

Regards

Paulo


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## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> I want a 1955 Oldsmobile like I had in high school. That's a far better car than a stinky Porsche. Huge back seat.


And an even bigger trunk for sneaking friends into drive-in movies.

Oh, wait - drive-ins don't exist anymore.

Nevermind.


----------



## Capt Len

Haa, you don't know comfort AND class until you find your daughter looking for the golden rivet in the back of my '46 Buick Roadmaster convert. Now there's some pros and cons of real steel.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
I have one of those drive in stories. I have another one where we were pulled over by a cop who insisted on seeing in the trunk. Mouse was in the trunk. His real name was Clarence but we all called him Mouse. He looked like a mouse and he was in the trunk.

I opened the trunk lid. Mouse looked up at the cop, Tex was the cop's name. We all knew him and he knew all of us. It was a small town. Mouse looked up at Tex and said, "Hello ossifer."

True story. This was in the days when the cop would give you a stern lecture and then send you home. And you know what? We respected Tex.

I'd just like to smell my old Olds again.

Now I am remembering Mouse stories. There was this time,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## bfloyd4445

SloopJonB said:


> And an even bigger trunk for sneaking friends into drive-in movies.
> 
> Oh, wait - drive-ins don't exist anymore.
> 
> Nevermind.


oh yes they do. In Sacramento California there is still one left.

and this is were Bobs huge backseat may come in handy

https://www.facebook.com/WestWindSacramento6DriveIn


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## bobperry

Sure Floyd. I could climb back there by myself and loft a boat.
That's all I'm good for these days.

" Hey baby, want to see my buttocks?"


----------



## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> Sure Floyd. I could climb back there by myself and loft a boat.
> That's all I'm good for these days.
> 
> " Hey baby, want to see my buttocks?"


Naw, don't buy that. lofting a boat, except maybe in your head, would require a very large back seat, unless it was toy sized. With your imagination and engineering skills I think you could find other back seat activities to enjoy like maybe, watching the movie........hummm....off topic question: I wonder if anyone has ever watched a movie from the back seat after puberty in a drive in.?
....been years, is vellum still used for drawings?


----------



## bobperry

I have 1000H vellum ready in rolls.


----------



## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> I have 1000H vellum ready in rolls.


chuckle...I should have known


----------



## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> I have 1000H vellum ready in rolls.


Me too! 15 years ago I bought what should have been a years worth of 1000H Vellum, Mylar, blueline paper, ammonia, leads and plastic lead for a three man office. Then I bought a computer drafting program and so I still have most of that Mylar and lead aging in the store room.

Oh well time goes on.


----------



## Faster

Jeff_H said:


> Me too! 15 years ago I bought what should have been a years worth of 1000H Vellum, Mylar, blueline paper, ammonia, leads and plastic lead for a three man office. Then I bought a computer drafting program and so I still have most of that Mylar and lead aging in the store room.
> 
> Oh well time goes on.


.. Still got the spline and weights too??


----------



## Classic30

Jeff_H said:


> Me too! 15 years ago I bought what should have been a years worth of 1000H Vellum, Mylar, blueline paper, ammonia, leads and plastic lead for a three man office. Then I bought a computer drafting program and so I still have most of that Mylar and lead aging in the store room.
> 
> Oh well time goes on.


It was a VERY happy day the day our ammonia copier went out the door, never to be smelt again. Still have some UV-sensitive paper around here somewhere.. but I don't think I'll ever forget that experience.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Jon:
> I have one of those drive in stories. I have another one where we were pulled over by a cop who insisted on seeing in the trunk. Mouse was in the trunk. His real name was Clarence but we all called him Mouse. He looked like a mouse and he was in the trunk.
> 
> I opened the trunk lid. Mouse looked up at the cop, Tex was the cop's name. We all knew him and he knew all of us. It was a small town. Mouse looked up at Tex and said, "Hello ossifer."
> 
> True story. This was in the days when the cop would give you a stern lecture and then send you home. And you know what? We respected Tex.
> 
> I'd just like to smell my old Olds again.
> 
> Now I am remembering Mouse stories. There was this time,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


A couple of years ago I saw a '48 Chrysler Business Coupe in a collection. It was a huge gangster looking thing and being a Business Coupe it had the single most enormous trunk I have ever seen.

You could have stacked up bodies like cordwood in that thing - it would REALLY have lived up to its image.


----------



## bobperry

I'll make a half hearted attempt at getting this thread back on track .

I went to the BS web site and looked at the pipe 34" life"lines". I have two major problems with them.

One is the awkward agricultural appearance.

Two is far more serious. The ISAF Offshore Special Regulations for lifelines require a gap between lifelines of no more than 15". So 28" high works as does 30" but 34" does not. You would need a third lifeline if you wanted to be in compliance. And you would need to be in compliance if you ever entered an offshore "rally" or race. These regs are extensive and they are not arbitrary. I design to them as they represent a lot of effort aimed at producing rules for a safe boat. You can find them on line under ISAF.


----------



## tommays

Bob

In my time on foredeck a GOOD TOERAIL has been of far more value for staying onboard as my hands are both generally busy and there is nothing like a good foot brace to keep a secure position


----------



## PCP

I had a go at the origami boat building site and find some Brent boat's that are not that ugly. I would say that even if the design is very conservative, the general aspect is nice, for a home built boat, including the interior:









But I confess this stability curve (36ft) leaves me confused:



Most of the stability curves of steel boats that I have saw take into consideration the big weight of the boat (that contributes to the RM) and normally have not a big AVS neither a very low CG. Normally those boat have a lesser B/D ratio than on a much lighter fiberglass boat. Their weight gives them much of the stability they need. They do it that way for not increasing substantially the weight of a boat that is already very heavy.

On your stability curve, considering that is a low draft boat without a bulbed keel, you have a AVS and a GZ curve that needs a huge B/D ratio. Certainly over 40% and probably near 50%.

Since your 36ft weights 17,280 lbs and the ballast is 5700 lbs, that gives a B/D ratio of 32%. That looks fine to me but one that would make that curve impossible to get, considering the Draft 5'10" and a non bulbed keel. I would say that not even with a bulbed keel and that draft you would come close.

Also a bit confused with the value of max GZ for a your relatively narrow 36ft. If I understand well you are using meters as unit and that gives a GZ well over a 1m? That is a measure for a 40ft racing beamy boat

Brent can you explain me how do you manage that GZ curve?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## smackdaddy

PCP said:


> I had a go at the origami boat building site and find some Brent boat's that are not that ugly. I would say that even if the design is very conservative, the general aspect is nice, for a home built boat, including the interior:


Those "life rails" don't look to be 34". They look much closer to the standard height you see on most boats. Even so - without the 15" intermediate line as Bob mentioned above, very easy to fall right through that space. Sure seems like a dangerous design to me (and ISAF apparently).


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## bobperry

Not a bad looking hull though. Lovely interior.

I agree with Paulo. There is something very odd with that stability curve. I don't believe it for a second. Steel hull and deck, very moderate beam and draft, low ballast to displ ratio. You can't get the VCG down low enough to get a LPS more than 130 degrees with those numbers. I have never seen a stability curve that looked like that and I have looked at a lot of them. It is a BS curve. I'd like to know where Brent put the VCG. I don't think he calculates weights well enough to have an accurate VCG. Without an accurate VCG the curve is worthless. Maybe he'll publish his weight study here for us. If he does I'll post the weight study for FRANCIS LEE for comparison.

For comparison, when I designed the 50' YONI the client wanted a LPS of 135 degrees. I had to work hard to get that much. I gave the boat a displ of 50,000 lbs and 20,000 lbs. of lead ballast deep in a big alu fin. I used a high deadrise hull form and moderate beam. I got 135 degrees but it was not easy.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> ... I have never seen a stability curve that looked like that and I have looked at a lot of them. ..


That type of stability curve is typical of some narrow fast old designed performance cruisers with a big B/D ratio.

Have a look at the Contessa 32 GZ curve. The boat as a B/D ratio of 44%. The one from Brent has a considerably bigger AVS and a bigger stability at big heel angles.



The Max GZ of the Contessa 32 is only 0.7m, very far away from the 1.2m that is shown on the Brent's curve even considering that one is a 32ft and the other a 36ft.


----------



## desert rat

I never realized how contagious two foot itus is. Anything form 27 to 32, then
32 to 34 DE schooner, now I am looking at the Brent boat 36 foot DE could i put a schooner rig on that. I am suprised that I am not running a fever (2ft-itus).


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
I'll buy the Contessa's curve, it's a narrow boat with a lot of ballast low. But that is a far cry from a LPS of 175 degrees that BS claims. I would estimate Brent's VCG at right at the DWL or maybe a hair above.


----------



## outbound

I'm confused. I thought having a heavier hull did not necessarily contribute to more favorable GZ nor to smaller area under the curve when inverted. I thought major factors were hull shape, B/P ratio and righting arm. Thought those issues plus shape of topsides and weight under water when inverted were the added issues when inverted. Spinning a steel barrow or a wood barrow floating in the water is just as easy. Thought weight of the skin of the boat has little to do with stability. Would think with heavier hull ( steel) it would actually be more difficult to achieve good curves c/w a light hull and greater portion of total weight in keel especially if contained in bulb lower down then seen in Brent's boats. Would agree good curve for when boat is inverted may be easier to achieve for narrow heavy boat less dependent on form stability.


----------



## PCP

outbound said:


> I'm confused. I thought having a heavier hull did not necessarily contribute to more favorable GZ nor to smaller area under the curve. I thought major factors were hull shape, B/P ratio and righting arm. Thought those issues plus shape of topsides and weight under water when inverted were the added issues when inverted. Spinning a steel barrow or a wood barrow floating in the water is just as easy. Thought weight of the skin of the boat has little to do with stability.


Not sure I understand everything you say but a beamier hull will give you a bigger max GZ (all other things being equal). It will give you more positive stability and also more negative stability (when the boat is inverted).

The RM is the GZ value multiplied by the weight. The GZ is actually an arm and it is as if you put the weight of the boat there to obtain a righting moment. With the same weight, the bigger the arm, the bigger the RM. For the same size of arm, the bigger the weight, the bigger the RM.

http://www.rya.org.uk/sitecollectiondocuments/technical/Web Documents/Stability Intro.pdf

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Out:
Paulo beat me to it. He's correct.

Simplify the picture. Forget GZ. Think in terms of more tangeable components. Think Righting Moment, the force acting to right the boat.

Righting Moment is Righting Arm ( G-Z) times Displacement. So if the righting arm stays the same and the displacement increases the Righting Moment will increase. Simple as that.

Certainly having a heavy hull and deck will raise the boats overall VCG and in doing so reduce the Righting Arm.


----------



## outbound

Thanks guys- my prior understanding of this was correct for a change. What I was confused about was any implication that using steel or any heavy skin ( concrete/wire) had any advantage in giving a stable hull or improving comfort motion measures. Believe that remains dependent on the skills/genius of the N.A. and the many factors not fully disclosed by a simple GZ curve. Still happy my boat has a good point of vanishing stability. Maybe BS boats hit so many reefs as they are hard to steer upside down.


----------



## bobperry

Out:
You are partially right.

If you have a heavier skin you will have less ballast and your VCG will go up. Generally this will reduce Rm and give you a more gentle motion. But given the scoipe of boats we are looking at here I don't think the motion change would be very much. And I do know for certain that everyone likes a stiff boat.

What is the LPS of your boat? I would guess 128 degs. Maybe 126 degs.


----------



## djodenda

I was reading about just this subject in a book from some yacht designer just last night. I think I understood it pretty well, although the actual data was interspersed with stories from his youth.

That being said.. The first righting curve makes no sense to me at all.. The author said that the righting moments are significantly affected by how the boat is loaded, and there will be some variations between the theoretical and real-world values, but nothing like that.

And the ZCoG is .88 meters? Huh?

(Yes, I know that you have said as much in the posts above.. but I was just showing off to Bob that I am paying attention to his book.. I dreamed about this stuff all night.. seriously...)


----------



## djodenda

Oh.. and I do like the green boat, too.. Hopefully they plan to put one or two lifelines between the top rail and the deck.

Not to mention people, it'd be pretty easy to lose sails over the side with those high rails...


----------



## bobperry

"The author said that the righting moments are significantly affected by how the boat is loaded, and there will be some variations between the theoretical and real-world values,"

Dave:
Hopefully the "theoretical values" will reflect the "real-world" values. That's why it is imperative to have an accurate VCG. The stability program is not that smart. You have to enter a VCG. You can put in anything. The computer takes it on faith. The only way to have an accurate VCG in the design stage is to do a weight study. If the boat is in the water you can do an inclining experiment, the way they did it to all boats back in the IOR days and derive a VCG from that.

If you have an accurate VCG and an accurate hull shape you should get reliable stability data.

Does anyone have a photo or drawing of the boat that stability curve came from?


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Out:
> You are partially right.
> 
> If you have a heavier skin you will have less ballast and your VCG will go up. Generally this will reduce Rm and give you a more gentle motion. But given the scoipe of boats we are looking at here I don't think the motion change would be very much. And I do know for certain that everyone likes a stiff boat.
> 
> What is the LPS of your boat? I would guess 128 degs. Maybe 126 degs.


Bob can you give me your opinion on this:

It is clear that a steel boat will have a better mass moment of inertia than any other type of sailboat and there are a lot of people that sees that as primordial to dynamic stability an in what regards the capacity to resist capsizing by a breaking wave. That seems right to me if we are talking about a motor boat or a sailboat not sailing.

I think that with medium or strong winds (like the ones you find in stormy weather), a powerful sailboat while sailing has its big RM balanced by the strong wind and that factor is more important to dynamic stability than any other. The boat is so strongly tied to a side by the wind that the power of that tie is far more important than mass moment of inertia to the boat dynamic stability. That tie will provide the boat with a steady fast motion and will resist to the lateral force that side waves can provide and to some extent to breaking waves.

This makes stiffness of a sailboat of a sailboat a very important factor in dynamic stability (stiffness meaning the RM on the first 30º). The "old school" sees stiffness as prejudicial factor in dynamic stability.

These movies "explain" what I mean:


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
Fabulous movies!

And then he puts up the chute! Big balls and no brains!

I have my own indvidual thoughts on stability and stability calculations. I use every technical tool I have at my disposal and I consider the results. But I am a very firm believer that static calculations for stability cannot simulate the conditions found at sea in a taiphoon. I spent three days in a north Pacific taiphoon and I have yet to see a program that can replicate those waves.

The old salts actually raised weights to the masthead to reduce their stability in big waves. But that was many years ago and the boats today are not the same. I know when the university in Sydney, Australia did the stability study after the Queen's Birthday Storm, the only thing they could say with certainty was that bigger boats are less prone to rolling over/capsize. That's it. They looked at the effect of pilot houses and concluded that deck house volume did not help. This was an exhaustive study.

My thought is that you start with a healthy design with a good Rm and I look hard at the Rm up to 30 degrees. That's where we live. Beyond that, so long as the boat on paper has an LPS of over 110 degrees I think you are good to go . I would much rather sail a boat with good initial stability in any conditions than a tender boat.

I do not think having a postive Rm at 125 degrees will make you "safe" at 122 degrees.
I'll take the stifffer boat. The fact is that most cruisers are never going to sail their boats hard enough to ever even put the spreaders in the water. Yet they obsess over this LPS like it was an absolute, cast in stone. Most of them have only a rudimentary understanding of stability to begin with. They think a number will make them safe. It will not.

I'll take the stiff boat thanks. Nobosy has ever called me and said, "My boat's too stiff."


----------



## skygazer

bobperry said:


> The old salts actually raised weights to the masthead to reduce their stability in big waves.


That is scary interesting. Was the purpose to slow the roll or something else?



bobperry said:


> ...Nobody has ever called me and said, "My boat's too stiff."


 .... .........


----------



## PCP

I agree with you and I think also that the RM at 90º is important. For having a big value all you need is a boat with a big Max GZ and a boat with a 120º degree AVS. Most of the cruisers today have an AVS around 120 and very rarely you see a AVS superior to 130º (normally performance cruisers and race boats have the higher ones).

But that was not what I was asking, I was asking about that discussion about capsizing that goes on and on. Well, the best Na don't talk about that but many others have a lot of talk about that and the importance of the mass moment of inertia to the dynamic stability. I think that in what sailboats are concern the dynamics of sailing are more important, among them stiffness and the ability to carry sail even on bad weather and have that way the boat firmly "tied" is probably the more important. That was what I wanted to show with that movies. Even the Smaller and lighter Figaro II was sailing among waves, taking waves on the side without rolling or altering its trajectory. That's because the boat is stiff and its "tied" to a side by the wind. Sorry If I cannot explain better what I mean. It is more easy to see it in the movies, or do it in the sea.

You know I am talking about this type of thinking:

"Many years ago during the Fastnet Race, rigorous analyses done after the loss of many vessels revealed that the boats which had concentrated ballast, light structure, and very light rigging suffered excessively due to their harsh rolling motions which caused many dismastings, consequent capsizes, and widespread seasickness.

By comparison, boats with heavier structure, lesser "ballast ratios" and heavier rigs resisted being "thrown" into severe rolling, had a much more seakindly roll motion, were easier on their rigs, did not lose their rigs, did not capsize, and did not experience nearly the degree of sea sickness among their crews. This is counter-intuitive because undoubtedly the heavier vessels had a higher center of gravity and therefore less "static" stability. However due to their distributed masses they had much greater "dynamic" stability, which enhanced both seakindliness and seakeeping ability.

With regard to structure, as compared to a fiberglass vessel a steel vessel will inherently have its mass distributed farther from its roll center, therefore a steel vessel will have a higher roll or mass moment of inertia and will be less active 'dynamically' in terms of roll, pitch, and yaw."

Beam vs. Ballast

You are right, that is not important. Top professional sailors know which are the more seaworthy boats and the designers that design them too.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## skygazer

skygazer said:


> That is scary interesting. Was the purpose to slow the roll or something else?


Upon reflection, I often launch with the mast down, and raise it at anchor or on the mooring with gin pole, double block and tackle, and stabilizers.

Particularly if I spend the night on the mooring with the mast unstepped, and raise the mast the next morning, I'm struck by how much more comfortably my boat suddenly rides at the mooring.

The old square riggers were constantly dropping and raising those top masts, so they must have noticed the difference.

This is deep thinking for me, why I read this stuff. Even if I'm lost, as least I'm thinking.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> I'll take the stiff boat thanks. Nobosy has ever called me and said, "My boat's too stiff."


Me too. Out of curiosity, have any of your clients ever called and said "My boat has too much sail area"?


----------



## bobperry

Sky:
Yes, I think the idea was to INCREASE the early LACK of stability. Sounds weird. But these old ships didnt heel more them 20 degrees or they were in deep feces. By decreasing initial stability they were trying or maybe insurring the ship stayed more upright (vertical) rather than trying to conform to the face of the wave, i.e.; perpendicular to the face of the wave. I'm sure it worked for them but it is an entirley different situation ( I'm not going to say scenario) then what we face in a modern yacht. We are all good past 90 degrees.

Don't feel bad. Stabilty is hard. I have been working to understand it since I was 15 years old. That was 52 years ago. I think I am getting a handle on it. When you have 52 years of stability study behind you, give me a call. We can discuss it.

It's raining. I like the sound of it. We have had a dry spell here in the PNW.

My dog took one of my shoes and dropped it out in the front yard. It is one of my lawn mowing shoes. I had better go collect it. I really don't need it. I can hear Nick, my lawn mower guy out there right now mowing his heart out. You never know. I may decide to mow my own lawn again some day. I will need that shoe.


----------



## bobperry

"too much sail area"?
No, but sometimes they tell me about the handling issues they are having and I tell them, "You boat has too much sail area." (For you)

Kind of like telling them, "You need training wheels."


----------



## skygazer

bobperry said:


> Sky:
> ...Don't feel bad. Stabilty is hard. I have been working to understand it since I was 15 years old. That was 52 years ago. I think I am getting a handle on it. When you have 52 years of stability study behind you, give me a call. We can discuss it.


Batman, 
OK, then watch for my call ...........when I'm 115 years old. Of course, I might not study as hard as you, so maybe a bit later than that.


----------



## Jeff_H

Faster said:


> .. Still got the spline and weights too??


Yes I still have my splines, duck weights and Copenhagen ships curves. I pulled some of my old equipment out when I was working on the design for the late Wolfenzee. I was having trouble getting the shape that I wanted on screen so I hand drafted it over a print of the drawing then took offsets and used the offsets to get fair curves on the computer. There was something nice about hand drafting again.


----------



## blt2ski

One does not need a pencil, paper and straight and curves to draw plans up?!?!?!?!?! wow.......I must still be in the dark ages.....or is that REALLY dark ages......a puter? what the H is that?

Has Mr BP had his new project announced yet?

Marty


----------



## Jabberwock

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> The old salts actually raised weights to the masthead to reduce their stability in big waves.


That's very interesting! I read something years ago like that. It's interesting to me now because I'm currently having a boat designed with a lifting keel and I was wondering if would ever be a good Idea to the partially lift the keel up in a storm. I could see it putting less stress on the boat but the question is would it actually be a strategy to reduce the chance of roll over? If it is, it's kind of counter intuitive.

Edit: Mehhh, I guess I should have read down a bit. But it's still a question in my mind.


----------



## SloopJonB

I've heard the opinion that it's better to have it up at least somewhat because it reduces the chance of the boat "tripping" if it gets shoved sideways by a big breaking sea - the thinking being that with the reduced lateral plane, the boat can slide sideways instead of rolling.

I dunno - there is a certain intuitive logic to it but I've never been anywhere near that sort of extreme situation.


----------



## bobperry

Jabber:
I would think that is a good question for your designer and not the internet.

Marty:
The design team, me, Tim O'Connell and Jody Culbertson is hot on the new project now. We ared we3ll into the 3D modelling and working on deck structure details now. But I'm going to let the client decide when to let the project loose. There is no sense and a hell of a lot of frustration being asked to explain and defend details when the boat is still in a preliminary form. Just be ready to see something a bit different.


----------



## blt2ski

Bob,

That is all I need, I was looking for the thread on SA the other day, did not see anything. I knew the owner would let it out of the bag. Was wondering if I had missed it. 

Anyway, have a happy halloween, and off to work with me.......may try to check out sliver if I get over there today.

Marty


----------



## PCP

Jabberwock said:


> That's very interesting! I read something years ago like that. It's interesting to me now because I'm currently having a boat designed with a lifting keel and I was wondering if would ever be a good Idea to the partially lift the keel up in a storm. I could see it putting less stress on the boat but the question is would it actually be a strategy to reduce the chance of roll over? If it is, it's kind of counter intuitive.
> 
> Edit: Mehhh, I guess I should have read down a bit. But it's still a question in my mind.


It depends on the type of hull and if the keel is ballasted or is just a centerboard without any considerable weight. If it is a beamy hull I would say yes, assuming you are talking of a centerboard and the ballast is not on the keel.

That is the recommendation that the manufacturesrs of French aluminium center boarders make to their clients.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Jabberwock

PCP said:


> It depends on the type of hull and if the keel is ballasted or is just a centerboard without any considerable weight. If it is a beamy hull I would say yes, assuming you are talking of a centerboard and the ballast is not on the keel.
> 
> That is the recommendation that the manufacturesrs of French aluminium center boarders make to their clients.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hmmmm? Well in my case she's a narrow boat and the ballast is on a bulb down low, so maybe that's a "no". However hauling weight up the mast is not exactly what you would expect either so who knows. Hopefully I won't get the chance to find out.


----------



## tommays

The worst boating experience in my life was motoring the J24 with the mast OFF THE BOAT from Greenport to Riverhead 

Who would think not having a 70 pound stick would make a boat that much MORE unstable


----------



## outbound

Bob- At work but recall LPS is 128 degrees. Remember an interesting article ( think it was in Ocean Navigator) discussing small boat (below 100') behavior in severe storms. The point about broaching and tripping on the keel was stressed. The impacts on behavior of boats floating on the water versus in the water was discussed. Still know I prefer having some of the boat in the water. Was in a moderate storm on a tri and have been in much more severe stuff in various monohulls. Behavior of the tri was pukeogenic and every one was bruised on the outsides surfaces of arms and legs whereas in a good monohull you can just weather on. My unscientific impression is on boats more dependent on form stability the ride is worse when things pipe up as well.


----------



## Jeff_H

My understanding of the weight up the mast was that it was allowed to swing through a reasonably wide angle. The concept was that it acted like a counter balancing pendulum, similar to the counterbalance weights on radio towers and tall street light poles. 

Like most things the right amount of roll moment of inertia is a matter of doing things in a reasonable manner. The current thinking seems to be that if you end up with too much roll moment of inertia that will take the boat out of phase with the waves and so the kenetic rolling loads will be larger resulting in an over swing (continuing to roll past the point that the same boat with a lower roll moment of intertia might roll to), similar to excitation roll. 

The problem of overswing is further exacerbated when the weight is up high, raising the vertical center of gravity and reducing the boat's tendancy to right itself. 

I am always amazed at the sheer amount of attention paid to the likelihood of a capasize. There is a huge pile of factors at work such that its hard to have a one size fits all general rule. Take the debate about deep keels in big waves. In theory the surface of the wave is moving faster than its core. This creates a sheer which wants to rotate the boat, and the deeper the keel, the more sheer it is likely to experience. But most deep keels are also short chord and so stall easily, and that since the sheer forces are at a steep angle, the deep keel is also likely to stall and produce less side force. But even the reduced force is likely to heel the boat, but as the boat heels, it reaches a point where the keel has less penetration in the wave and so the force is further reduced, that is unless the boat starts to slide sidewards on the wave face in which case the velocity of the boat will add to the force the boat experiences and since a shallower keel is more likely to slide, its velocity is greater, and therefore the unit force is likely to be greater, and since a longer chord length keel does not stall as easily it is also more likely to produce a greater rotational force. 

In other words, the specifics of the boat's shape and its loading, the wave height and ist shape matter more than theoretical advantages and disadvantages. 

Jeff


----------



## skygazer

outbound said:


> ...Behavior of the tri was pukeogenic and every one was bruised on the outsides surfaces of arms and legs whereas in a good monohull you can just weather on. My unscientific impression is on boats more dependent on form stability the ride is worse when things pipe up as well.


"pukeogenic"


----------



## PCP

Jabberwock said:


> Hmmmm? Well in my case she's a narrow boat and the ballast is on a bulb down low, so maybe that's a "no". However hauling weight up the mast is not exactly what you would expect either so who knows. Hopefully I won't get the chance to find out.


I don't think that in your boat would be a good thing to raise the boat CG and diminish righting moment in bad weather but as Bob had said: Talk with the boat designer.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

"What is the LPS of your boat? I would guess 128 degs. Maybe 126 degs. "

That is me quoting me.

So what you are saying Out is my guess of 128 degrees was spot on. Got it. Allow me to be a pompous, egocentric, know it all, ass for a change here. I knew I was very close. I am very good at guessing stability numbers. I have been looking at them for 50 years and I have slowly honed and refined my ability to look at a boat and make a very good seat of the pants guess. It's a tool of my trade. I think Paulo looks at a lot of these numbers also and he can smell BS when he sees it when it comes to stability. After all, there is reality and there is non reality, fairy land.

This is just to preface the argument that is sure to erupt when Brent finds out we are calling BS on his G-Z curve. It's bound to come but he has shown over and over that his grasp of naval architecture is rudimentary at it's best.

I am ready.

Out:
Your pukeogenic observations are spot on. Funny too.


----------



## PCP

The funny thing about it is that Brent's 36ft seems to me to have an adequate stability with the ballast/keel/weight he has on his boat. If he wanted to have that St curve on his boat he had to put so much ballast on the boat that it would be ridiculously heavy and that would make it even slower.


----------



## Jeff_H

outbound said:


> Still know I prefer having some of the boat in the water. Was in a moderate storm on a tri and have been in much more severe stuff in various monohulls. Behavior of the tri was pukeogenic and every one was bruised on the outsides surfaces of arms and legs whereas in a good monohull you can just weather on. My unscientific impression is on boats more dependent on form stability the ride is worse when things pipe up as well.


The problem with the motion on a Tri's is that they are typically designed so that both outer hulls can barely penetrate the surface when the boat is dead level. The idea is to reduce wetted surface by lifting the weather hull out of the water at very small heel angles. The hulls are also shaped to quickly develop buoyancy as they submerge to quickly start generating stability. What then happens in closely spaced waves is that you rock from outer hull to outer hull, and fetch up quickly against that rapidly building stability. The result can be pukeogenic and everyone bruised.


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
I agree. It's the real world. Even over here in the great Pacific Northwest. Physics works the same. Just wetter.


----------



## outbound

Go for it


----------



## Faster

" ..pukeogenic"... adding that to my dictionary!


----------



## PCP

Yes, there are pukeogenic boats and puke people that cannot sail in pukeogenic boats. Pukeogenic boats are strictly for no puke people. At some speed in some conditions all really fast sailboats are pukeogenic boats. Conclusion: If you really want to sail or race fast in a sailboat better not be a pukeogenic guy, otherwise you puke and will never understand why all the other guys have a big grin while you are puking


----------



## Faster

Clearly "Pukeogenic" has a Portuguese etymology


----------



## tommays

^^^ What happens when you ignore the fact that a change like changing a plastic enclosure to glass above deck does to stability even if it was a powerboat

I use to spend a LOT of time camping on Lake George with the young ones and we had walked past the Ethan Allen many times and always felt uneasy as it listed at the dock


----------



## skygazer

tommays said:


> Ethan Allen boating accident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ^^^ What happens when you ignore the fact that a change like changing a plastic enclosure to glass above deck does to stability even if it was a powerboat
> 
> I use to spend a LOT of time camping on Lake George with the young ones and we had walked past the Ethan Allen many times and always felt uneasy as it listed at the dock


Because I've always liked exploring lakes, I canoed on Lake George a few times, camping on islands, many years ago. I'm happy to say I sailed my canoe downwind there a few times, you could sail a long ways with the wind up or down the lake. Lots of history, I saw remains of boats from the early wars there, and thick old wavy wine bottles with round bottoms.

It's a beautiful clear lake, long and deep in many areas. It's so long that at times waves can build to a good size, and quickly. It's hard to believe they used a boat that seems more suitable for a duckpond. According to the Wiki article, the bench seats were not fastened down. A couple pages back Bob Perry mentioned that old time ships couldn't heel safely past around 20°. I'm guessing part of that was the loose internal ballast that could shift. Having a too large load of passengers, in effect loose ballast very high up, on loose benches, means that boat wasn't suitable for the squalls and wind and waves I've experienced on that lake. It wasn't rough when they sank according to the reports, just a hard turn that shifted the weight.

I know I've read somewhere about a fishing vessel that also did a lot of improvements, adding more and more weight up high, then sinking. I guess it's hard for people to realize the cumulative effect of what they do, beyond the original design of the boat.


----------



## skygazer

PCP said:


> Yes, there are pukeogenic boats and puke people that cannot sail in pukeogenic boats. Pukeogenic boats are strictly for no puke people. At some speed in some conditions all really fast sailboats are pukeogenic boats. Conclusion: If you really want to sail or race fast in a sailboat better not be a pukeogenic guy, otherwise you puke and will never understand why all the other guys have a big grin while you are puking


 PCP!!

It's not just speed that causes pukeogenesis. The only time in my life I had an inkling of what people must feel when seasick was from slow motion. I was on a small *steel* (remember this thread is about steel boats) freighter, maybe a hundred feet long. We headed out from Portland for Yarmouth Nova Scotia, back in the late 70's. It was February, arctic cold, during that year when Boston and the northeast were buried in snow, and it was blowing hard out of the NNE.

When we hit the open water and turned for Yarmouth, the ship heeled way over onto its starboard side, and stayed that way. Then it went up up up up up up, and down...down...down...down, up up up up up up, down...down...down...down..., while staying laid over hard on the starboard side. Each time we went down you could feel your stomach and guts float up into your ribcage.

I got used to it after a bit, but for the first time I could see how people get very seasick.


----------



## PCP

skygazer said:


> ..... Then it went up up up up up up, and down...down...down...down, up up up up up up, down...down...down...down..., while staying laid over hard on the starboard side. Each time we went down you could feel your stomach and guts float up into your ribcage.
> 
> I got used to it after a bit, but for the first time I could see how people get very seasick.


I was just kidding.That's not a bad description of a movement of an heavy sailboat in big waves. On a fast sailboat you will go a lot less up an down but will bang bang bang a lot more with much sharper movements with much less amplitude. There are guys that prefer the big up and down slow motion movement others that prefer the sharper smaller one. Normally what is called a sea kindly motion is traditionally associated with the first.

Probably I would prefer mid term: Not the very sharp motion of a top very light racer neither the big amplitude of movements of an heavy boat. If for racing I don't care, just give me the fastest one and a crew for sailing it cause I surely can't but I know that I would love the ride

Note that by racer I don't mean a performance cruiser but a racer. Owners of old slower boats tend to call racers to everything that is faster than their boats. I am not talking also of other era racers but about contemporary ones.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## outbound

Paulo- have to agree with Sky. Once nearly got sick working in and dark, smelling bilge and diesel while trying to find a throughhull leak during a storm. Sails had already blown out so weren't moving that fast.
I love racing multihulls to point I giggle when the rudder(s) start to cavitate and the rig sings. Still the ride is harsh. When folks are scared and have trouble moving about without injury they are more likely to puke. Recent article in one of the national sailing rags here in the States points out the marked benefit of relaxation techniques in decreasing mal de mare.


----------



## bobperry

"Owners of old slower boats tend to call racers to everything that is faster than their boats."

Pretty funny Paulo.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> "Owners of old slower boats tend to call racers to everything that is faster than their boats."
> 
> Pretty funny Paulo.


Funny but true Bob. I have seen refereed several times the interesting boat thread as the thread where I post racing boat. There are boats of all types there and the racing boats are a small minority, I mean regarding boats posted, at least in what market concerns.

We can call a racing boat to anything that sails and is used or can be used in some sail race and that includes pretty much everything that sails including a Westsail 32. After all that boat had already won a major race. It is just a matter of opinion... and boat ratting

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bfloyd4445

tommays said:


> Ethan Allen boating accident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ^^^ What happens when you ignore the fact that a change like changing a plastic enclosure to glass above deck does to stability even if it was a powerboat
> 
> I use to spend a LOT of time camping on Lake George with the young ones and we had walked past the Ethan Allen many times and always felt uneasy as it listed at the dock


thanks for the posting. That boat was an accident waiting to happen. I can visualize that boat and I will never get on a cruise ship because they appear ro me to also be accidents waiting to happen


----------



## AlaskaMC

Here is a steel sailboat we saw in Seward (say that five times fast) and I had to take a picture. It reminded me of the conversations on here regarding the security of steel.

First one of the boat, pretty interesting looking to my eye. I liked the flush decks and nice clean looks myself.


And check out this hatch!!!!


I don't think anyone is coming in without permission. 

I wonder if this is one of Brent's. It looks owner finished but at a pretty nice level.


----------



## PCP

That is a hell of a "door". It is an ugly thing on a nice boat. certainly that could have been made nicer.


----------



## Faster

AlaskaMC said:


> .....I wonder if this is one of Brent's....


It has that look.. could be.


----------



## smackdaddy

Is that a boat or a pressure cooker?


----------



## AlaskaMC

Faster said:


> It has that look.. could be.


I am thinking yes even more after looking at the pic again. Those steel "lifelines" look to be about 30+'' tall and fit his description.

Paulo, I agree that that door, although humorous, is an really odd finish to an otherwise neat looking boat. I mean, how much would such a hatch/door weigh?


----------



## AlaskaMC

smackdaddy said:


> Is that a boat or a pressure cooker?


Now that you mention it, I think there is a pressure gauge on the door!!!


----------



## bfloyd4445

she looks like she has a bullet proof door and windows. They also look like a recent addition and not finished yet. Wonder what business the owner is in?


----------



## bobperry

That boat has BS all over it. But I like the color selection and the PH is not as awkward looking as most of Brent's. At least the builder had an eye.

Nice door. Makes me wonder who is being held captive below.

Those lifelines would not meet ISAF standards.


----------



## Jabberwock

bobperry said:


> Nice door. Makes me wonder who is being held captive below.


Maybe it used to belong to Rick James.


----------



## Tanton

Those lifelines would not meet ISAF standards.[/QUOTE]

If you have a 4" bulwark and a 30" stanchion above it, the standard is met. The green boat does not show the middle lifeline, while the white boat does.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> ...
> 
> Those lifelines would not meet ISAF standards.


And besides that they look odd on that size of boat contributing to make it less nicer.

Even regarding safety, ISAF rules apart, they don't seem a good idea to me:

When someone goes to the front of the boat with bad weather, one goes not walking like on a boardwalk, but moving low near the deck holding short a line to a jack line. On that position the bigger risk is a big wave to push someone not over the lifelines but below the lifelines. The bigger space that boat has between the second lifeline and the deck does not contribute to safety and I don't think it compensates in safety the superior height of the first one.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Rick Hames?
Help me out I'm an old feller.

Rick James the bass player? I vaguely remember him.


----------



## smackdaddy

PCP said:


> When someone goes to the front of the boat with bad weather, one goes not walking like on a boardwalk, but moving low near the deck holding short a line to a jack line. On that position the bigger risk is a big wave to push someone not over the lifelines but below the lifelines. The bigger space that boat has between the second lifeline and the deck does not contribute to safety and I don't think it compensates in safety the superior height of the first one.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


This is exactly where I think Brent's notions of seamanship are misinformed. He seems to assume that you simply walk to the bow in rough conditions standing fully upright and designs his super tall stanchions to this notion. Well, maybe you'll do that once - and if you're still onboard afterward, you'll wish you had the same stanchion design the rest of the world has. ISAF ain't stupid.

Bob:










Superfreak.


----------



## Jabberwock

bobperry said:


> Rick Hames?
> Help me out I'm an old feller.
> 
> Rick James the bass player? I vaguely remember him.


Apparently Rick James and his girl friend kidnapped some woman and held her captive as a sex slave for a few days.


----------



## bobperry

Yep, that's the Rick James I had in mind.
Didn't know about the sex slave thing.
Kids these days.


----------



## xymotic

Jabberwock said:


> Apparently Rick James and his girl friend kidnapped some woman and held her captive as a sex slave for a few days.


So, do you think Rick has brought his girlfriend home to meet his mom?


----------



## bobperry

From steel boats to sex slaves. And done so effortlessly.


----------



## xymotic

Say what you want, but Steel Boats have way better dungeons than fiberglass.


----------



## Capt Len

Slaves or not, imagine your hand on that open door frame as the boat rolls on a large lump. Door swings closed. Forgot to do the clasp and now your fingers are inside and you're in the cockpit


----------



## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> From steel boats to sex slaves. And done so effortlessly.


not sure there is any difference for some of us.....synonyms maybe


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> From steel boats to sex slaves. And done so effortlessly.


That's what keeps me coming back for more.


----------



## bfloyd4445

Capt Len said:


> Slaves or not, imagine your hand on that open door frame as the boat rolls on a large lump. Door swings closed. Forgot to do the clasp and now your fingers are inside and you're in the cockpit


hummm..change a couple of words in what you wrote and I can understand the sex slave connection........or maybe its just plain sex..


----------



## AlaskaMC

Watch out or we may end up under password protection!


----------



## Capt Len

Feel free to change any words you want. After all ,unless you are into some kind of bondage, it's a free world.


----------



## bobperry

You guys are very weird.
I am very normal. I love sail ties.


----------



## Faster

In a (probably vain) attempt to get this thread on topic... here's a nicely done Colvin ketch.. In '86 I sailed to California on a schooner rigged version of this hull. Not a great trip, but not the boat's fault necessarily....


----------



## PCP

I like some Koopman's designs. This one is not bad for a boat from the early 80's. The draft is 1.95m so probably it is a fin keel boat, but the weight seems impossibly low for a 37ft steel boat : 7T.











Koopmans 37, sailing boat, Sailing Yacht, CHF 79,800 (Used boat) | boat24.com/uk


----------



## desert rat

I have schooneritus, but that ketch is beautiful. Colvin a name to research TY.


----------



## SloopJonB

PCP said:


> I like some Koopman's designs. This one is not bad for a boat from the early 80's. The draft is 1.95m so probably it is a fin keel boat, but the weight seems impossibly low for a 37ft steel boat : 7T.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Koopmans 37, sailing boat, Sailing Yacht, CHF 79,800 (Used boat) | boat24.com/uk


Maybe - if it hasn't been ballasted yet. 

Anyway, it's freakin' gorgeous.


----------



## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> Maybe - if it hasn't been ballasted yet.
> 
> Anyway, it's freakin' gorgeous.


+1. That's a helluva boat.


----------



## Classic30

smackdaddy said:


> +1. That's a helluva boat.


For a steel boat, that's a hellava lot of *wood*... just sayin'


----------



## Jaramaz

Have met a number of Koopman boats when sailing. Agree that they are nice, like the looks. But fast they are not, probably not even designed to be.

/J


----------



## chall03

smackdaddy said:


> This is exactly where I think Brent's notions of seamanship are misinformed. He seems to assume that you simply walk to the bow in rough conditions standing fully upright and designs his super tall stanchions to this notion. Well, maybe you'll do that once - and if you're still onboard afterward, you'll wish you had the same stanchion design the rest of the world has. ISAF ain't stupid.


The thing is that Brent is not misinformed, while on boat design he is outmatched here, when it comes to cruising cred he has some runs on the board.

This is a conversation I would like to be able to have with him. Perhaps he does walk upright to the bow in rough conditions?? I don't know. Rather than just veiled insults about 'plastic salesmen's lifelines' though I would love to have a sensical conversation about what he finds works for him and why.


----------



## Tanton

Koopman's Design. The toe rail seems to indicate that the boat might be aluminum built and not steel.


----------



## mstern

Tanton said:


> Koopman's Design. The toe rail seems to indicate that the boat might be aluminum built and not steel.


If the toe rail is bolted on top of the teak deck, wouldn't that sufficiently isolate it from the steel hull (assuming the bolts themselves are electrically isolated)?


----------



## PCP

Tanton said:


> Koopman's Design. The toe rail seems to indicate that the boat might be aluminum built and not steel.


The weight too (7T) so maybe you are right but the boat is advertised for steel boat. Also the tankage is typical of a fast and light boat, not of an heavier steel cruiser.

If it is the case and the add is wrong then they are pretty dumb because a 30 year old aluminum boat has a market value bigger than a steel one.

Koopmans 37 YEAR 1984, MATERIAL Steel. In German is also advertised as a steel boat:

"Robuste Stahlyacht mit Teakdeck und hervorragenden Segeleigenschaften.
Für sicheres und komfortables Reisen auf See."

http://www.boat24.com/uk/Sail+Boats/Koopmans+37/detail/42934/

Here you have what looks like the same design (also steel) but without teak. Here they give some more details:

"Sailingyacht Koopmans 37 "Vita Nova", built in 1979/1980 by Huizer Marina - Holland, dim.: 11,45 (lwl 9.50) x 3.37 x 2.00 m, headway approx. 18 m, designed by Dick Koopmans sr, steel hull, wood epoxy superstructure and deck, teak cockpit, Moonlight hardened glass windows in aluminium framing (2000), round bilged blue hull with white striping, fin keel, displacement approx. 10 tonnes, ballast approx. 3,3 tonnes (lead), fuel tank approx. 120 litres (steel), fresh water tank approx. 2x 150 litres in GRP tanks, tiller steering, emergency tiller."

http://www.devalk.nl/en/yachtbrokerage/250186/KOOPMANS-37.html#tab2

So it seems that on the first boat they have the weight wrong or the material wrong. 10T is good for a steel boat and a lot more credible than 7T. However it seems that this one has the same type of toe rail, if not the same. Maybe because the deck is not steel?

Anyway Koopmans used to make the same design in steel and aluminium (with the needed structural alterations) so it is possible that the weight is right and that the first one is an aluminium version.

I think the boat is this one:



That later evolved to this nicer and more modern hull;


Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Ok, here's the deal on ISAF lifeline spacing. I know it doesn't make a lot of sense but don' blame me I didn' write the rules. But I have been studying them for application on the PSC 62' ketch.

Then lifeline spacing is measured from the "working deck". It has nothing to do with the bulwark or the toe rail. So, if you have the lower lifeline 20" above the deck and you have a 4" bulwark or tow rail the ISAF regs still only see the 20". They do not count the
4" height of the bulwark.

It's annoying but it's the way the rule is written.


----------



## PCP

And then, there is this little cute one:





With the hull not far from the ones from Brent (offered in single or twin keels) but with an overall nicer look.





The designer is Tanton, the more recent poster on this thread.


----------



## PCP

chall03 said:


> The thing is that Brent is not misinformed, while on boat design he is outmatched here, when it comes to cruising cred he has some runs on the board......


Regarding Brent's boats I do not see anything wrong with them. The real problem is that for him any boat that don't follow is design criteria does not make sense...and most of the boast don' follow is design criteria.

Sure he does not know much about theory and his drawings are not nice but Bob Perry confessed that when he designed some of his best designs (long time ago) he did not made stability curves for them. He knew intuitively that they would work, as Brent knows. Brent has already a big experience with that type of boats and I have no doubt that he knows what works, or at least some of the things that work.

The problem is that Brent had showed some crazy stability curves that makes no sense to prove his boats are perfect. He makes no sense statements about boats that are very different from the ones that he builds and that he don't fully understand. He makes absurd statements about impossible performances and speed comparison with lighter and bigger boats. He is not the only one but he is a designer and should know better. It seems that his type of boats are the only ones he know thoroughly and he should only talk about what he knows best.

All this does nothing good to his credibility and pisses everybody.

Regarding drawings, most if not all of Brent's boats are built by amateurs and it is obviously that they manage to build them by Brent's designs. He is even quite popular among steel amateur boat builders, so I think he can say that even if his designs are not nice they are at least functional.

Regarding the look of his boats I don't think any has been built by a reputable shipyard, not because they cannot be built there but because the type of sailors that want his boats want an inexpensive boat and want to make the boat themselves. The look will never be as good as if the boat was made by a top professional shipyard and some are just plain ugly in the details. It is also true that Brent personally does not care much about how a boat looks providing it works and his boats works and they are used for extensive voyaging.

Even so looking at the net I could find some relativelly nice boats, not bad at all if we consider they were built by amateurs on a shoe string and that Brent personally gives not a sh*t how the boat looks or at least is what he says.



























Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
I agree with you. Brent doesn't much care how the boats look. If he did he would provide design drawings that enabled the builder to replicate his design ideas. Most of Brents boats could be greatly improved aesthetically with just better choice of paint schemes and colors.

But I see one boat in that group that is very good looking. In the second photo there is a pilot house boat off to the right, on the next dock. Now that is a good looking boat. And, they built 600 of them!


----------



## Faster

PCP said:


>


Nicely done, this one..


----------



## bobperry

That's nice but it's missing the BS touches like a hard dodger and the refigerator door companionway. It also has dangerous normal stanchions and lifelines.


----------



## Faster

bobperry said:


> That's nice but it's missing the BS touches like a hard dodger and the refigerator door companionway. It also has dangerous normal stanchions and lifelines.


Yes.... all true. So.. either it's not a Brent boat... or possibly Brent would not approve???


----------



## bobperry

Either way it looks good. If it's the BS 34' hull I have always thought that was a decent looking hull. It's the agricultural deck structures that my eyes stub on. It's inevitable that some builder with a bit of an eye and some taste could do at least a passable cabin trunk.


----------



## blt2ski

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> I agree with you. Brent doesn't much care how the boats look. If he did he would provide design drawings that enabled the builder to replicate his design ideas. Most of Brents boats could be greatly improved aesthetically with just better choice of paint schemes and colors.
> 
> But I see one boat in that group that is very good looking. In the second photo there is a pilot house boat off to the right, on the next dock. Now that is a good looking boat. And, they built 600 of them!


So is Mr BP going to say that that Bob Perry guy whom probably designed that boat to the right in the 2nd photo is the best designer..............again......
:laugher:laugher

Any way, while out doing my rounds today, found a qtly rag put out by West systems folks. Had a neat article on the sliver project. Have you seen it?

Marty


----------



## bobperry

marty:
No, I have not seen that mag.


----------



## blt2ski

How often are you are csr checking out sliver? every monday with Kim, or just some. I could leave it there. Kim may not have seen it either for that matter.............

Marty


----------



## bobperry

Marty:
I have no regular schedule for visiting FL. You could leave it at the boat for Kim and I'd get to see it eventually. Thanks.


----------



## blt2ski

BP,
I'll see if I can get it dropped off later today. Tried last night out of the blue, but they were closed by 15 min or so. Forgot to take it with me when I was there in the AM. 

Marty


----------



## bobperry

Thanks Marty.


----------



## blt2ski

It will be monday before I get it there. Down at t-line hoping to get some ear to ear arcs in this weekend. Did not have time before I left to get it there. Is Kim down there most mondays about 9am?

Marty


----------



## bobperry

Marty:
I have no idea of Kim's schedule. He's been tied up with some other things lately.


----------



## copacabana

Thought this might be of interest to the followers of this thread. It seems the Swain 36 "Silas Crosby" is for sale. It certainly looks like a nice boat:

For Sale: 36' steel sailboat, Cape Horn vet - Cruisers & Sailing Forums


----------



## kimbottles

bobperry said:


> marty:
> No, I have not seen that mag.


Bob,

West sent me a couple, I can mail you one.......assuming I remember to do it......


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> I agree with you. Brent doesn't much care how the boats look. If he did he would provide design drawings that enabled the builder to replicate his design ideas. Most of Brents boats could be greatly improved aesthetically with just better choice of paint schemes and colors.
> 
> But I see one boat in that group that is very good looking. In the second photo there is a pilot house boat off to the right, on the next dock. Now that is a good looking boat. And, they built 600 of them!


I know which one I would prefer to do the maintenance on, or be in on a dark, foggy, moonless night with Fukashima debris, or broken up log booms around, and it certainly wouldn't be the plastic one with all the dead vegetation bolted to it . It definitely wouldn't be the one with fragile, trip wire lifelines.
My boats rarely come up for sale. Owners tend to hang on to them. So for most people, simply buying one is a rare option, and the number of people who would build their own is much smaller than the number of people who would simply buy a boat. There is simply not a big enough market for mass produced, stock production steel boats . Never has been . It appears that market for mass produced stock plastic boats is rapidly declining as well. 
As Bob mentioned in his earlier post, there is something attractive about the rugged beauty of a work boat. The more experience a cruiser has, the greater the attraction of a work boat look, and the less interest they have in the flimsy, dainty , fragile, boat show look. Mine are aimed at those who appreciate toughness and reliability , more than a good bondo job. my clients don't go to a lot of trouble to make their boats or gear look dainty and fragile, in a way that the naïve, production boat market demands.


----------



## Brent Swain

copacabana said:


> Thought this might be of interest to the followers of this thread. It seems the Swain 36 "Silas Crosby" is for sale. It certainly looks like a nice boat:
> 
> For Sale: 36' steel sailboat, Cape Horn vet - Cruisers & Sailing Forums


Hell of a deal. She has been thoroughly flame sprayed with hot zinc, meaning minimal maintenance . She certainly doesn't loo0kj like a boat which just came back from such a voyage. In fact she looks like she has barely cruised at all.
He said price is negotiable.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Ok, here's the deal on ISAF lifeline spacing. I know it doesn't make a lot of sense but don' blame me I didn' write the rules. But I have been studying them for application on the PSC 62' ketch.
> 
> Then lifeline spacing is measured from the "working deck". It has nothing to do with the bulwark or the toe rail. So, if you have the lower lifeline 20" above the deck and you have a 4" bulwark or tow rail the ISAF regs still only see the 20". They do not count the
> 4" height of the bulwark.
> 
> It's annoying but it's the way the rule is written.


Yet another example of the many, many ways of how irrational rules can be. Boats should be based on logic , and common sense, not on the whims of those so dense.


----------



## Brent Swain

PCP said:


> And then, there is this little cute one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With the hull not far from the ones from Brent (offered in single or twin keels) but with an overall nicer look.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The designer is Tanton, the more recent poster on this thread.


This ones a beauty, based on logic. She is very similar to my own boat. She even has the rudder in the right place.
Windows in the front of that pilot house would make a lot of sense, allowing inside steering, via the trim tab.\
Mine has such inside steering, via trim tab. Works well. Finger light load on the auto helm, below decks, where it belongs


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> Hell of a deal. She has been thoroughly flame sprayed with hot zinc, meaning minimal maintenance . She certainly doesn't loo0kj like a boat which just came back from such a voyage. In fact she looks like she has barely cruised at all.


She looks like a very capable boat.


----------



## bobperry

" in a way that the naïve, production boat market demands. "

Speaking of "dense", what does that have to do with 175 degrees of positive righting moment?

Still waiting for an in depth explanation of that BS.

I don't like ugly, crude boats. When I say "beauty in a workboat" I am talking about a well designed workboat where the elements of the aesthetics are controlled. The PNW is full of great examples.

I like beautiful boats that sail very well and make their owners happy.


----------



## bobperry

I don't care what the material is. The only excuse for an ugly boat is poor design.

FRANCIS LEE gets her bottom painted.




When FRANCIS LEE goes slding by I think you will say, "That is a very beautiful boat."


----------



## casioqv

I think Brent's boats look great, in an expedition ready sort of way... the same as a well setup Mercedes G-wagen or Land Rover expedition vehicle looks good. It looks like something that will survive a serious adventure!

"Our young yachtsmen, pleasuring in the 'lilies of the sea,' very naturally will not think favorably of my craft. They have a right to their opinion, while I stick to mine."
-Joshua Slocum


----------



## chall03

bobperry said:


> I like beautiful boats that sail very well and make their owners happy.


That is a beautiful design. I will take two thanks.

Are you certain those lifelines are high enough???


----------



## bobperry

Cas:
I am lucky to live in the PNW where we are surrounded by beautiful purpose designed work boats. These include car ferries, tugboats, logging boats, a wide variety of fishing boats and fabulous tug boats. I love work boats. Some can be works of art. The workboat designs of Bill Garden are amazing, purpose driven, art. The tugs of Nickum and Spaulding, the fishing boats of H.C.Hansen are again very beautiful boats. But there are a lot of work boats, purpose built boats, that are butt ugly. Maybe it's just me but I see a big difference in many of the boats in terms of design quality. I like a boat that can get the job done while looking good. Being a robust, stalwart, rugged work boat does not mean you can't be beautiful. I find the Mercedes G-wagon a very handsome car.


----------



## Classic30

chall03 said:


> That is a beautiful design. I will take two thanks.
> 
> Are you certain those lifelines are high enough???


It's just the angle you're looking from, Chall.. 

I'd be more concerned by the lack of a mainsheet. Unrestrained, that boom could make a mighty dent in your skull!


----------



## Faster

Classic30 said:


> I'd be more concerned by the lack of a mainsheet. Unrestrained, that boom could make a mighty dent in your skull!


Cameron, Cameron... everything's going wireless these days, don'tchaknow???


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> " in a way that the naïve, production boat market demands. "
> 
> Speaking of "dense", what does that have to do with 175 degrees of positive righting moment?
> 
> Still waiting for an in depth explanation of that BS.
> 
> I don't like ugly, crude boats. When I say "beauty in a workboat" I am talking about a well designed workboat where the elements of the aesthetics are controlled. The PNW is full of great examples.
> 
> I like beautiful boats that sail very well and make their owners happy.


Compare the dainty fragile look of this boat with the obvious toughness of Silas Crosby. No decorative dead vegetation on Silas Crosby.
That dead vegetation aft platform, with its tinfoil ladder looks mighty flimsy compared to the stainless, welded schedule 40 1inch pipe I use, attached to pad eyes welded to the hull.
Jim did the 175 degrees stability curves on his computer. Ballast one side of a beach ball, with a small ballast ration, and see if you can even get it to stay inverted in water. Tanton's 30 footer has a midship section much closer to that of a beach ball than a super beamy flush decker . The high cabintop camber drastically improves it's ultimate stability, if it has the proper airtight aluminium door I use, instead of the leaky ,outdated, sliding teak contraptions on Bob's designs.

On any other point of sailing but going to windward, that dodger is totally useless to anyone in the cockpit . It only protects the back of the cabin, and looks super flimsy compared to a wheelhouse. I'd feel like a pretentious fool, huddling behind that decorative contraption in bad BC weather, when I could be in a warm, dry, heated wheelhouse. 
It's typical of what arm chair experts, with little winter cruising experience, mistakenly value, while sitting in their armchairs in their warm living rooms.
I don't know of any owners of my boats who would rather cruise in something more wet, fragile and pretentious, sacrificing comfort and safety for " style over substance."
The bow roller looks like a very poor design. It is the type which wont keep the rode in when side loaded as a boat tacks around her anchor, the kind which put so many boats on the beach in the Cabo 82 disaster . I saw many like that ripped out in Puerto Vallarta, after trying to raise their anchors at Isabella, when they were stuck under a sandstone slab in a swell. 
Far better to slope the leading edge of a bow roller forward, so they will keep the rode in during a side load. Far better to make the roller far stronger than the biggest line that will run over it, especially in a vertical direction, from which it will be loaded when the anchor is fouled under a rock in a swell. Rather than run it long way forward, to keep the anchor clear of the topsides, I prefer a 1/8th inch stainless wear plate on the bow , behind the roller. 
I see more cruise ships doing this now, after decades of having to paint the area every time they pulled into port. ( slow learners?)


----------



## Brent Swain

One more advantage of solid top lifelines is it makes the intermediate life line far less springy, with both top and bottom of stanchions supported.
For solid top lifelines. one can pre bend them before installing them. If you spring them in, then weld them, the heat from the weld can cause them to kink at each stanchion. Putting down a quarter inch tack at each stanchion, and letting each such tack cool completely, before putting another next to it, solves the problem to some degree. I have welded all the stanchions to the top rail before putting it on the boat, then putting it over short uprights amidships to let it swivel to take a fair curve. When you do that, you must make sure that each stanchion is welded to the top rail at the right angle, to match the sheer at that point. Other wise, with a great sheer, the stanchions in the ends will be anything but vertical.
Weld shrinkage kinks the top rail slightly down at each stanchion. Cutting a 2x4 an inch less than the height of the stanchion, and using it as a fulcrum off the decks, and using another 2x4 over it to pry the top lifeline straight, works to straighten it out, after welding.

1/4 inch 1x19 stainless rigging wire is best for intermediate lifelines. Used boaters exchanges are awash in the stuff, for cheap. It sure beats the plastic coated crap usually used on stock boats.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Compare the dainty fragile look of this boat with the obvious toughness of Silas Crosby. No decorative dead vegetation on Silas Crosby.
> That dead vegetation aft platform, with its tinfoil ladder looks mighty flimsy compared to the stainless, welded schedule 40 1inch pipe I use, attached to pad eyes welded to the hull.
> Jim did the 175 degrees stability curves on his computer. Ballast one side of a beach ball, with a small ballast ration, and see if you can even get it to stay inverted in water. Tanton's 30 footer has a midship section much closer to that of a beach ball than a super beamy flush decker . The high cabintop camber drastically improves it's ultimate stability, if it has the proper airtight aluminium door I use, instead of the leaky ,outdated, sliding teak contraptions on Bob's designs.
> 
> On any other point of sailing but going to windward, that dodger is totally useless to anyone in the cockpit . It only protects the back of the cabin, and looks super flimsy compared to a wheelhouse. I'd feel like a pretentious fool, huddling behind that decorative contraption in bad BC weather, when I could be in a warm, dry, heated wheelhouse.
> It's typical of what arm chair experts, with little winter cruising experience, mistakenly value, while sitting in their armchairs in their warm living rooms.
> I don't know of any owners of my boats who would rather cruise in something more wet, fragile and pretentious, sacrificing comfort and safety for " style over substance."


One thing I have to give you Brent. You are pretty funny.



Brent Swain said:


> I'd feel like a pretentious fool...


You can go ahead and take off the 'd.


----------



## Faster

Brent.. You have your tiny utilitarian niche, and good on you.. But denigrating this heartbreakingly pretty design does you no credit whatsoever. I seriously doubt there's going to be anything 'dainty' about this boat when it's done.. And equally sure there won't be anything 'coarse' about it either.

But Smacks right.. In the end we can only laugh..


----------



## capttb

> On any other point of sailing but going to windward, that dodger is totally useless to anyone in the cockpit . It only protects the back of the cabin, and looks super flimsy compared to a wheelhouse. I'd feel like a pretentious fool, huddling behind that decorative contraption in bad BC weather, when I could be in a warm, dry, heated wheelhouse


Looks much better here in San Diego where pilothouses and plastic greenhouses on sailboats are pretty non-sensical. As for dainty and fragile, I personally prefer boats that swim well over those capable of amphibious maneuvers.


----------



## bobperry

I wouldn't let the "dainty" look of this design fool you. For starters it's not designed for "bad BC weather" It's a custpm boat for an East Coaster. Can't you read? This will be a very strong boat. See Brent you can't let outward appearences fool you. It's so superficial. You have zero idea of ths boat's scantlings. Yes, it will take quite a bit of upkeep to keep it looking good but my client is well heeled and keeps his current boat Bristol. I suspect he will do the same with this boat. If you are worried about the cost of upkeep I don't think this boat is for you. You could build two BS boats for the cost of the design fee on this one. A lot of time went into the transom corner chocks. It's details like this that I obsess over on custom project where I can control almost everything.


I can draw rugged boats. I'll paste a few if you like. I can do rugged with my eyes closed. But Brent you can't design beautiful if your life depended on it. This level of naval architecture combined with art is beyond your efforts. So quit being jealous. Just enjoy looking at my work and be happy that none of my clients will ever be interested in your work. I am not a threat to you. Chill. Relax. Enjoy.


----------



## bobperry

It's such a great design I can't resist posting more images.





Just don't look if it bothers you Brent. I bet it bothers you a lot. HTFU.
By the way we changed the toe rail over the transom yesterday. We made it solid as you can see in the pic in the previous post. I didn't like the look of the elevated rail. I'm a nit picker when it comes to my work.


----------



## Brent Swain

PDW said:


> As one of the other participants on bd.net, I'd have to say I'm more amused than anything else.
> 
> One of the things I've had a wonderful laugh about at Brent's expense is his utterly ludicrous claim that his steel 31' sailboat can break through 5" thick ice.
> 
> Only if dropped from a substantial height....
> 
> Brent is a fantasist who actually seems to believe his own BS. He stopped posting on bd.net because nobody was accepting his stories for fact. It's all on record over there. The tissue of outright lies & distortions Mike quotes above is just a small example of the crap Brent has posted in the past, got shot down in flames and then re-posted somewhere else. He's incapable of learning anything new or accepting that he may not always be right.
> 
> PDW


If we get some 5 inch ice this winter I will show you, after you put a couple of hundred down on a bet.
On bd.net they claimed my boats, with the photos of one surviving 16 days in huge surf on the west coast of Baja, posted by the guy who sailed her home from that trip, were not strong enough. One such critic then went out and bought his" much stronger" plastic cal. He still hasn't accepted my challenge of a demolition derby against my "far too weak" origami boat. So he obviously doesn't believe his on bull! Does Smackdaddy want a demolition derby in his "Much Stronger" Hunter? Another who doesn't really believe his own bull.They claimed that Don Shore, who pounded across 300 yards of Fijian Coral reef then was pulled back across it by a tug , was lying, despite his having many witness around , all of whom they called liars, and covering the story in his book "Around the World on Viski " ( a great read )
Anyone backing me up, including Canadian Coast Guard staff, were accused of being me. They claim to know more about the incident that those who were actually there! So who are the real liars? 
They claim calculations based on false rules, which ignore many very relevant factors, are reality, while decades of actual experience are simply anecdotes, implying that calculations are more accurate than actual experience. That is as credible as suggesting that tomorrows weather forecasts can be more accurate than yesterdays weather records! So who are the real liars?
They claimed that fragile plastic thru hulls were better than welded in stainless pipe nipples, which have given me zero trouble in over 30 years, nor anyone else who has used them for far longer. 
Wynand was the only one there with any actual, significant amount of boat building experience. When I asked about their cruising experience, he was the only one who answered. He admitted his experience was only limited coastal cruising experience. The rest obviously had none, or they would have certainly crowed about it. Wynand, after criticizing my designs for lack of transverse frames , admitted to having built Dix designs frameless, and posted one on the origamiboats site. He also stated that 3 windward shrouds( 12,000 lbs tensile strength each ) were capable of crushing a steel side deck inwards, (tensile strength 60,000 psi)
Pete Wiley , starting is first ever steel boat project , a design several of my clients have upgraded from, immediately claimed to know more about boatbuilding than someone who had built dozens of them over decades.
One thing all of my critics there had in common. Almost zero steel boat building and long term cruising experience, and a complete inability to understand the effect of shape on structural strength, and a complete inability to comprehend stresses in three dimensional shapes. Thus, they are completely incapable of comprehending anything new in steel boat design, or the use of shape to acquire stiffness. 
That site has been completely sabotaged into uselessness, by about a half dozen inexperienced, dense , armchair attack mob, who understand very little about steel boats, and who are incapable of understanding anything new or innovative, so only respond by attacking any suggestion of anything new or innovative . 
Some spoke of the need for :"good engineering" . I think "engineering" can be defined as " The judicious application of logic". I gave pages of engineering logic in all these debates. If you want good engineering, you depend on the guy offering a lot of logic, not on someone who automatically , and impulsively attacks logic, without replying to the points of logic made; attacks with childish jeering, without bothering to read the logic offered. I am beginning to see more of that here.
Logic is not valued, nor even allowed in the long run, on that site, rendering it quite useless as a source of good, reliable information.

Breaking thru 5 inch ice takes me a run of many yards, to about 4 .5 knots on impact. The boat rides up over it, then crushes down thru about three feet of it per run. Almost vertical topsides doesn't work, as it meets the ice almost at 90 degrees, which impacts it on end, stopping the boat with far thinner ice.. My current boat has more of an ice breaker bow shape enabling it to climb on top. My last boat didn't and a half inch of ice would stop her.

What do you call someone, who claims to be an engineer , yet who claims that shape has little or no effect on stiffness and strength ( kinda like claiming that pipe, I beam , or square tubing has exactly the same strength and stiffness as a flat bar with the same an mount of material in it)

You call him a LIAR!


----------



## PCP

Brent Swain said:


> Compare the dainty fragile look of this boat with the obvious toughness of Silas Crosby..... I'd feel like a pretentious fool, huddling behind that decorative contraption in bad BC weather, when I could be in a warm, dry, heated wheelhouse.
> It's typical of what arm chair experts, with little winter cruising experience, mistakenly value, while sitting in their armchairs in their warm living rooms.
> ...( slow learners?)


Brent at his worst. That is true that Bob has been provocative regards your designs even if he had admitted that some hulls looked good and the boats were strong and functional. That is a lot more than you are able to do regarding any other type of design that not the only type you design.

It seems that you don't understand that 95% of the recreational sailors have not any interest in sailing in the winter, in stormy weather or really cold climates. Most of us prefer to sit at the fireplace when the winter blows hard and cold. That make us armchair sailors? No, just sailors that don't like to sail in very disagreeable conditions. Professionals cannot chose, we can.

Most sailors also like to sail fast in responsive boats that can deliver a lot of sailing pleasure and offer beauty to the eyes, a boat that they can love.

There is nothing wrong with your boats and I am sure they are suited for what they are designed for.... but your incapacity to understand that, regarding the sailing community, the ones that are interested in what your boats can offer (by opposition of what offer other types of boats) are a very tiny minority, is quite distressing.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
I'm beyond being "provocative". I am tired of the "Evereyone has to do it my way in a crude looking steel boat" attitude. Brent is incapable of understanding that the word is full of diverse and valid opinions. He is a luddite through and through.

I have dinner on
I have a fire in the firplace.
I have some nice music on the hi-fi.
I can argue all night long and actually I'd kind of like that.
Paulo: pour me a glass of good local wine please. I like meaty Riojas.
I'll pour you a glass of hearty, tannic, Pacific Northwest, Yakima Valley Cabernet


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> He still hasn't accepted my challenge of a demolition derby against my "far too weak" origami boat. So he obviously doesn't believe his on bull! Does Smackdaddy want a demolition derby in his "Much Stronger" Hunter? Another who doesn't really believe his own bull.


You still haven't accepted my challenge to allow a freighter to t-bone your boat at cruising speed in rough seas, showing how your boat "would have saved the Sleavin family" (*your idiotic words here*). So who's the chump that doesn't believe his own bull?

I'd be happy to give you a demolition derby shot at my Hunter. The problem is...you couldn't catch me...because your boat is so, ahm, "strong".


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent doesn't design sailboats. He designs last resort steel bunkers to live out one's waning days, alone, trapped below in cold, nasty weather, scared to death of the world outside, and growing more and more bitter, and smelly, while eating bad oatmeal for the 182nd day in a row....content in the thought that at least sinking won't be what does you in.

I think I'd rather sail - or sink. Prison has never appealed to me.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> ...
> I have some nice music on the hi-fi.
> I can argue all night long and actually I'd kind of like that.
> Paulo: pour me a glass of good local wine please. I like meaty Riojas.
> I'll pour you a glass of hearty, tannic, Pacific Northwest, Yakima Valley Cabernet


Your are trying to insult me? Local wine and you talk about a Spanish wine? 

If you are not too low on finances and want to try a lifetime experience just try one of those two, if you can find it (we try to drink it all):

Pêra Manca | Salt of Portugal

Barca Velha: the precious red from the Douro | Portugal Daily View

if you are not so well in $$$$ try this one:

+++ TAPADA do CHAVES +++ Vinhos e Espumantes

or this one:

Quinta do Côtto :: Home

I am listen music too, not cold enough for the fireplace.

This music:






Regards

Paulo


----------



## smackdaddy

Hey Bob, my 9 year old boy just designed a boat - no kidding. He gave me the drawing about 30 minutes ago. I was wondering what he was working on over there at the kitchen table.

I'll put it up later and let you give him some direction. He'd like that I think.


----------



## blt2ski

Wines are much like boats........Many are good, many are not so good. Some, well, lets just say not worth drinking! Kinda like coffee in my book! All wine area's make some excellent down to basic table wines. A couple bucks a bottle, if it tastes bad, rancid, you toss it, open the next one. OThers, you pay a bunch more, expect it to be purrrrrrrrfect! better hope it is.

I do agree, Portuguese wines and ports are hard to find around here. But the Columbia river valley in E wash does brew up some really good stuff!

Not that this should remind me, but need to get the rag to CSr for Kim on his boat........

marty


----------



## djodenda

I am really impressed with the fittings.. Remind me of the old-school bronze fittings..

Will they be stainless?

Machined?


----------



## djodenda

Brent.. please stop.. it's just becoming sad...


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Wines are much like boats........Many are good, many are not so good. .....
> ....
> marty


Marty, one of the wines I had talked about is someway related with boats:
*

"Pedro Álvares Cabral took bottles of Pêra Manca in the voyage that resulted in the discovery of Brazil, in 1500."*

and the one called "Barca Velha" even more: The name means "old boat"

A wine brand that lasts for over 500 years cannot be that bad

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,
Very true, a brand that can last 500 years, stay in one family per say for that long too.....you know it is in the blood of the family! But here were BP and I are, along with Djodenda.......Kyrie is floating just fine in her slip on E dock david!..........500 yrs ago, not sure there was a European person around here! Altho I am sure the local natives were making some kind of brewed grog, wine, beer or what ever........just a different flavor than a wine from Europe!

I am wondering what that vodka?!?!?! found in Antartica would taste like that has been down there buried for 100+ yrs...........

marty


----------



## djodenda

Glad Kyrie is well, Marty.. I worry about my boat when I'm away....

And, slightly more on topic, I am using neurons thinking about whether my boat's flat bottom is worth the extra speed..

I can never get all the water out of her flat bilge, and it sure is noisy from wave slap when I am at anchor and the wind is opposing the current.

I never thought of stuff like this until I started reading about it here and in Bob's book.


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
Those s.s. fittings will be cast 316. Client demands 316.

Smackers:
I have been coaching the son of B. J.Porter, Will, from Crusing Anarchy for several months now. His design efforts have come a long way.

You already know I would be honored to work with your son. Any time.


----------



## blt2ski

David,

I try not to think too much, as it hurts my brain electron! you must be in europe? any way, she was floating fine earlier today, altho this brown and white creature left a present on the deck.........








I preferred kyrie out at slip 50, she is better looking than the westsnail 28 that is there now!


----------



## copacabana

PCP said:


> Marty, one of the wines I had talked about is someway related with boats:
> *
> 
> "Pedro Álvares Cabral took bottles of Pêra Manca in the voyage that resulted in the discovery of Brazil, in 1500."*
> 
> and the one called "Barca Velha" even more: The name means "old boat"
> 
> A wine brand that lasts for over 500 years cannot be that bad
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo, I recently had a bottle of Pêra-Manca and I must say it was exceptional.


----------



## bobperry

I'll go on line today and see if I can Google up a US distributor of those wines. I'll call my local wine shop but I'm skeptical he would have it.


----------



## chall03

I am in love. I am head over heels in love.

I have had my 2 glasses of wine( AUSTRALIAN Shiraz of course) and now I just can't stop looking at her.



bobperry said:


> It's such a great design I can't resist posting more images.


So Umm I'm sorry did Brent say something????


----------



## djodenda

I can't avoid thinking of this whenever the subject of Australian wine comes up:


----------



## bobperry

I bought a bottle in New Zealand called Purple Death.

It said on the label that it was a "Christian wine, because after one sip you'll say Jesus Christ!"


----------



## outbound

Brent we re having folks over for brunch. Expresso,cappochinos, mimosa s, bloody marys and more food from around the world than you know of. Finish with port and a Cuban for the boys. Serve on the stone patio by the fire pit. Chat about moving aboard the boat this summer and how these folks will meet up with us so they can enjoy the sun and glories of g-d creations. 
Brent in just one year my boat has stood up to storms and the fury of the sea but she's a joy to sail,live on and look at.
P.s. Just transferred my Scarlatti , Mozart and willie to iPad to put in the boats sound system.
Brent some live others exist.it s not about money it's about attitude and wanting to embracing beauty

Bob that's a very beautiful boat.


----------



## bobperry

Thanks Out. I try hard and I have a great team to help me.
Why don't you throw in some Hank Williams III on the Ipod. It'll get the companies attention after Mozart. He sounds just like his Grampy.

Speaking of embracing beauty I think I'll go hug my wife.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> I'll go on line today and see if I can Google up a US distributor of those wines. I'll call my local wine shop but I'm skeptical he would have it.


I could only find it here:

Prices in all countries for Cartuxa Pera Manca Tinto, Alentejo, Portugal (all vintages)

http://www.wine-searcher.com/find/cartuxa+pera+manca+tinto+alentejo+portugal/1/usa/-/x

As I said we try to drink it all

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Jaramaz

PCP said:


> I could only find it here:
> 
> Prices in all countries for Cartuxa Pera Manca Tinto, Alentejo, Portugal (all vintages)
> 
> Cartuxa Pera Manca Tinto, Alentejo, Portugal (all vintages). Price these wines in USA for
> 
> As I said we try to drink it all
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Not distributed where I live, have to use the local wine









/J


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> I'll go on line today and see if I can Google up a US distributor of those wines. I'll call my local wine shop but I'm skeptical he would have it.


Does your love of wine explain some of your posts?
Be careful Bob. That stuff can be dangerous. It has screwed up a lot of lives.


----------



## Brent Swain

capttb said:


> Looks much better here in San Diego where pilothouses and plastic greenhouses on sailboats are pretty non-sensical. As for dainty and fragile, I personally prefer boats that swim well over those capable of amphibious maneuvers.


I have sailed past San Diego many times, about 300 miles off shore is the closest I have ever come to it, and the closest I would ever want to get, in a boat. Friends who have stopped there told me they wish they had done the same. Police states with a total lack of hassle free anchorages are no fun at all.
What some call cold and rain we consider "Tourist repellant" here in BC. Its what stops BC from being like San Diego.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> You still haven't accepted my challenge to allow a freighter to t-bone your boat at cruising speed in rough seas, showing how your boat "would have saved the Sleavin family" (*your idiotic words here*). So who's the chump that doesn't believe his own bull?
> 
> I'd be happy to give you a demolition derby shot at my Hunter. The problem is...you couldn't catch me...because your boat is so, ahm, "strong".


Steve
Are you referring to the way the Sleavin's boat outran that freighter?
Duuhhhh!!!


----------



## PCP

Brent Swain said:


> Does your love of wine explain some of your posts?
> Be careful Bob. That stuff can be dangerous. It has screwed up a lot of lives.


I assume you only drink milk and water?

As that anything to do with you being....like that?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> I wouldn't let the "dainty" look of this design fool you. For starters it's not designed for "bad BC weather" It's a custpm boat for an East Coaster. Can't you read? This will be a very strong boat. See Brent you can't let outward appearences fool you. It's so superficial. You have zero idea of ths boat's scantlings. Yes, it will take quite a bit of upkeep to keep it looking good but my client is well heeled and keeps his current boat Bristol. I suspect he will do the same with this boat. If you are worried about the cost of upkeep I don't think this boat is for you. You could build two BS boats for the cost of the design fee on this one. A lot of time went into the transom corner chocks. It's details like this that I obsess over on custom project where I can control almost everything.
> 
> 
> I can draw rugged boats. I'll paste a few if you like. I can do rugged with my eyes closed. But Brent you can't design beautiful if your life depended on it. This level of naval architecture combined with art is beyond your efforts. So quit being jealous. Just enjoy looking at my work and be happy that none of my clients will ever be interested in your work. I am not a threat to you. Chill. Relax. Enjoy.


Nice corner chocks. If they are thru bolted they could possibly be stronger than the line which goes thru them. Now all you have to do is go stainless sq tubing the rest of the way around the boat, such as waterline yachts ended up doing( a huge improvement) 
When I was building my first boat, back in my early 20s I was thoroughly impressed by brightwork , back when I was extremely naive , before doing any cruising. Once I started actively cruising and gaining some experience , it dissipated quickly. I have seen the same change in may cruisers, most of them in fact.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Steve
> Are you referring to the way the Sleavin's boat outran that freighter?
> Duuhhhh!!!


No, Brent. I'm referring to your claim that your boat could have taken the same impact that the Sleavins suffered without significant damage...that "your boat would have saved their lives".

That's what I'm talking about. Do you believe your bull enough to demonstrate this with your boat? If not - then it's just bull...as you say.

(As for the outrunning part of the equation - I'm saying my plastic Hunter will outrun your boat. You won't be able to hit it because you can't catch it.)


----------



## Brent Swain

Faster said:


> Brent.. You have your tiny utilitarian niche, and good on you.. But denigrating this heartbreakingly pretty design does you no credit whatsoever. I seriously doubt there's going to be anything 'dainty' about this boat when it's done.. And equally sure there won't be anything 'coarse' about it either.
> 
> But Smacks right.. In the end we can only laugh..


Yes , how totally silly to suggest that an open backed dodger is not more comfortable that a totally enclosed, heated wheelhouse, with an inside steering position and a comfortable steering seat facing forward. Everyone knows that sitting outside, exposed to all kinds of weather is far more comfortable, than sailing from inside a heated insulated wheelhouse? How silly and laughable for me to suggest otherwise!
When I am sitting inside my wheelhouse on a snowy day with the stove blasting out the heat , and see a Perry design going by , with the entire crew in an open cockpit , dressed like Eskimos, and freezing their asses off any way , who is being silly and laughable? 
If you are the ones in the open cockpit , go ahead and laugh. I will be laughing just as hard at you, probably harder, in my T shirt , as comfortable as any sailor can get.
Oops forgot. We are not supposed to post any useful suggestions, or information here. Only discussions on wine ( and display the mental consequences of indulging in it to excess) and post pictures of pretentious 'Style over substance" for purposes of self embellishment, and justification for exorbitant design fees, and other needless expenses , which sucker many cruisers into such debt, that they can rarely leave the dock anyway.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> It's such a great design I can't resist posting more images.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just don't look if it bothers you Brent. I bet it bothers you a lot. HTFU.
> By the way we changed the toe rail over the transom yesterday. We made it solid as you can see in the pic in the previous post. I didn't like the look of the elevated rail. I'm a nit picker when it comes to my work.


No bow roller of any kind on this one. How dense is that? How big an anchor do you plan to use? How do you plan tom get it aboard, without dinging the fancy, pretentious stuff?


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> No bow roller of any kind on this one. How dense is that? How big an anchor do you plan to use? How do you plan tom get it aboard, without dinging the fancy, pretentious stuff?


Brent, at one time I found your method of boatbuilding intriguing but you really are getting tiresome. You aren't convincing anyone here of the "rightness" of your cause, you are only irritating everyone with your "Jehovah's Witness" zeal.

Time once again for you to anchor out away from Internet access I think.


----------



## Brent Swain

I just checked out some Garhauer blocks. The becket has a total of an inch of 14 gauge stainless, at 95,000 psi, tensile strength 7500 pounds. My blocks , if given an inch wide 3/16th aluminium becket at 45,000 psi, have a tensile strength of 8437 lbs. The 3/16th inch shackles on a Garhauer block has a tensile strength of 1655 per side, for a total of 3311 lbs, the weakest point . While the bearing is super strong, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. One can easily go wider on the becket on my blocks, which I usually do, something you can't do on a commercially made block. What they sell is what you get.
Checked out some Harken, Lewmar and Schafer blocks. Only tiny bits of metal holding them together, especially the beckets. Nowhere near as strong as mine , not even near s strong as a Garhaur
I don't anticipate any similar calculations from Steve ( Smackdaddy ) . Just more adolescent jeering .


----------



## bobperry

I have seen your drawings Brent. I'd ask you to post some more but I don't think I want to look at them. They are crude at best and display very effectively your lack of design talent. But if you have some drawings you are proud of please, by all means post them.

I saw one of your boats posted here and I really liked it. But I give all credit to the builder, the client and not you. They managed a nice boat depsite your lack of design help. Interestingly it was missing a lot of the BS "special touches".

" Shafhauer blocks?" I have never heard of those. Could you direct me to a web site so I can see some. You didn't mean Garhauer did you?

"back when I was extremely naive " Classic BS.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> Brent, at one time I found your method of boatbuilding intriguing but you really are getting tiresome. You aren't convincing anyone here of the "rightness" of your cause, you are only irritating everyone with your "Jehovah's Witness" zeal.
> 
> Time once again for you to anchor out away from Internet access I think.


Are you suggesting that not having a bow roller on a boat should never be questioned? Is this what they get from you for $150 an hour? How many other inadequacies do you suggest ,should be hidden, to avoid being accused of being "Tiresome?" You suggest that none of your screw ups should ever be questioned? Wouldn't it be better for you to not make them, or to correct them in the first place?
Seeing people trying to cruise in grossly inadequate boats is very tiresome, a problem created by the "tiresome" who design , build and sell such boats, while trying to hide their inadequacies from buyers.. Warning people of their inadequacies is no doubt 'Tiresome " to those trying to hide such inadequacies from potential buyers of what they are selling, and pull a fast one on them. 
I'm sure the auto industry found Ralph Nader's warnings about the inadequacies of what they were selling "Tiresome."
Would you suggest that he should have not bothered to warn the public, and just let their victims die , to avoid being accused of being "Tiresome?"

Nice to know where you are coming from.


----------



## T34C

Geee Brent it's hard to imagine why you've been kicked out of every other forum you've ever joined...


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
you are being silly again. The boat has had a bow roller from day one. It's all there on the drawings. I do produce drawings. It's part of our ultra expensive cast 316 s.s.s stem fitting. Pretty much a clone of the system Hinckley has used for years, effective and attractive. It's been there for anyone to see who has followed the thread. We are going to 3D print it and cast it from the 3D part. That's new and exciting for me.






I understand if you can't produce a drawing you probably can't read one either but these renderings should be plain even to you.

I think Brent has run off. He's trying to find Schafhauer blocks. He did check them out. They must exist.

I think he is confused with Professor Schaffhausen from the movie DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS, one of my favs.

I'm sure you are amazed at the beauty of this design Brent but don't tell me. Flattery will get you nowhere.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I just checked out some Shafhauer blocks. The becket has a total of an inch of 14 gauge stainless, at 95,000 psi, tensile strength 7500 pounds. My blocks , if given an inch wide 3/16th aluminium becket at 45,000 psi, have a tensile strength of 8437 lbs. The 3/16th inch shackle s on a Shafhauer block has a tensile strength of 1655 per side, for a total of 3311 lbs, the weakest point . While the bearing is super strong, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. One can easily go wider on the becket on my blocks, which I usually do, something you can't do on a commercially made block. What they sell is what you get.
> Checked out some Harken, Lewmar and Schafer blocks. Only tiny bits of metal holding them together, especially the beckets.
> I don't anticipate any similar calculations from Steve ( Smackdaddy ) . Just more adolescent jeering .


Sigh. It doesn't take adolescent jeering, Brent. Just facts.

From your enlightening treatise:

BS Yachts Marketing Program

+++++++++Here is my first post on the blocks after I finally found the photos.++++++++++++++

Finally! I found those pics of the $2 blocks Brent was talking about:



> Make your own block and test it. It only takes 20 minutes and $2 worth of materials.
> 
> The cheeks of a sheet block can be easily jig sawed out of 3/16th aluminium scrap. Some use spacers which can be made out of pipe , on the becket end, to space them the same as the width of the sheave. I prefer to leave the two cheeks attached by a strip of 3/4 inch wide aluminium, then bend it 180 degrees to make the becket. These cheeks should be sanded very smooth and well rounded to eliminate chafe.
> Then it' s simply a matter of running a 3/8th ss bolt thru the sheave to make up the block.
> You can make up sheaves by running a hole saw thru a sheet of plastic , such as a cutting board. Micarta, salvaged from electrical panels makes even better sheaves which will last several lifetimes. Black plastic is far more UV resistance , if you can find it.
> After hole sawing it out, you put a carriage bolt thru it and put it in a drill chuck. Then you use a vise and machine the groove in it , using the drill like a lathe.
> You can use a spacer to make a double block, or put different sized sheaves in line, like the yachtie blocks.
> While I think bearings are a gimmick , if you insist , you can make the hole in the sheave a half inch wider than the bolt, then stack bits of 1/4 inch rod , made out of any material you like, around the pin and viola, roller bearings.
> I have made a single block this way, using only hand tools in 20 minutes, a far stronger and more reliable block than most of the super expensive "Yachtie " blocks people get conned out of large sums of money for. A billionaire can't buy a better block for any amount of money. It takes less time to build one than it takes to travel to the ship swindler and buy a block .
> Yet another of many examples of how building your own produces a far better product than the cheque book delivers.
> Last edited by Brent Swain; 10-17-2011 at 04:35 PM.





















I assume these are from his own boat - which starts to give some small indication of its condition. I guess we all have different measures of "perfection".

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



Brent Swain said:


> As you can see, they are in perfect condition, with zero wear or corrosion after 29 years , and many Pacific crossings. If you want "shiny" you can do it in minutes with a brillo pad on a grinder. That has never been a priority for me. I prefer to concentrate on structurally and functionally sound. I have no interest in impressing anyone but the practical.
> 
> Thanks for posting these Smack. They make my point.


I then offered to buy one of his blocks for $11 (half the price of the $22 Garhauer, and 500% more than his cost to make it) and test them both to destruction as he's laid out below in the next post. Still no luck.



Brent Swain said:


> A friend sailed to New Zealand and back, with stock "yachty" style blocks. They had black anodized aluminium cheeks with stainless straps over them. The corrosion between the SS and the aluminium swelled the cheeks tight against the sheaves, causing them to freeze solid, in such a brief, one year trip. That is the kind of perfectionism Smack advocates. As long as it has a brand name on it, it must be perfect. My blocks have had no problems in decades . That is my definition of perfection, not decorative priorities over reliability. I still see those failed blocks for sale in yachty stores ,for high prices, for those "knuckleheads "gullible enough to judge marine hardware by the price tag and it's decorativeness. I see some lewmar blocks with 1/4 inch stainless shackles with 1/4 inch pins, and flimsy plastic cheeks , for $40 each.
> How does the high price tag and brand name make plastic and tiny shackles stronger than the amount of metal holding my blocks together? How dose the tiny amount of stainless around the shackle pin get strengthened to more than the amount of aluminium in the beckets on my blocks, by adding a brand name and high price tag? They give the safe working load at 900 lbs, a fraction the strength of the half inch line going over it. I believe all blocks, cleats and mooring bitts should be stronger than the biggest line that will be used on them. That is simply good seamanship ( unlike what Smack advocates|)
> You can easily make a strength comparision between my blocks and commercially made blocks . Just tie a loop of rope around a tree and the other end to the becket of one. Then tie another loop of half inch Dacron around the two blocks and tie the other becket to the back bumper of a car, with lots of slack . Then get in the car and put the pedal to the metal, and see which one breaks first. If your theory holds, then you believe that mine will break first, and you will be out 20 minutes and $2. So why don't you try it? Because you know full well that your commercially made block wont stand a hope in hell!
> What is your theory on that? Or do you simply believe that mother nature is kinder, and more gentle, to materials which look like something out of a blister pack from a yachty store?
> Didn't know mother nature was that consumer biased .


I'm still waiting for my BrentBlock so I can do the test he lays out above. So far - he hasn't delivered.


----------



## PCP

Brent Swain said:


> No bow roller of any kind on this one. How dense is that? How big an anchor do you plan to use? How do you plan tom get it aboard, without dinging the fancy, pretentious stuff?


Look, another one without a bow roller and these guys were stupid enough to build the boat and forget the dam thing



Regards

Paulo


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Are you suggesting that not having a bow roller on a boat should never be questioned? Is this what they get from you for $150 an hour? How many other inadequacies do you suggest ,should be hidden, to avoid being accused of being "Tiresome?" You suggest that none of your screw ups should ever be questioned? Wouldn't it be better for you to not make them, or to correct them in the first place?
> Seeing people trying to cruise in grossly inadequate boats is very tiresome, a problem created by the "tiresome" who design , build and sell such boats, while trying to hide their inadequacies from buyers.. Warning people of their inadequacies is no doubt 'Tiresome " to those trying to hide such inadequacies from potential buyers of what they are selling, and pull a fast one on them.
> I'm sure the auto industry found Ralph Nader's warnings about the inadequacies of what they were selling "Tiresome."
> Would you suggest that he should have not bothered to warn the public, and just let their victims die , to avoid being accused of being "Tiresome?"
> 
> Nice to know where you are coming from.


I am able to recognize a preliminary rendering for what it is - preliminary. Do you also assume the boat will have no mainsheet?

Your comparison to Nader is very apropos - he was a one track messiah who was mostly full of $hit as well. The difference is he had a huge audience of ignoramuses to buy into his [email protected] whereas you are preaching to a knowledgeable and experienced audience


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Brent:
> you are being silly again. The boat has had a bow roller from day one. It's all there on the drawings. I do produce drawings. It's part of our ultra expensive cast 316 s.s.s stem fitting. Pretty much a clone of the system Hinckley has used for years, effective and attractive. It's been there for anyone to see who has followed the thread. We are going to 3D print it and cast it from the 3D part. That's new and exciting for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....


Bob, I find that ugly. That boat deserves a fold in system. The black boat I posted some posts back is a big Hanse and has the system.

Some years ago when Hanse was young they provided the system as option on smaller boats and I had tried it. It works like a charm. It is balanced in a way that you can rotate it with the anchor included with no force at all and it goes slow and smoothly to its position.

I guess they stop using it on smaller boats because it is expensive and gives work to mount properly.

I don't believe they make the system. It is on the market for sure.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

The client wants an anchoring system like the one he has now. It works well for him.
The retracting sprit is still up in the air. I want it and I want it offset as is shown here. I seem to be losing this battle though. We will just have to wait and see how that one shakes out.

Paulom could you please post a good pic or two of a "fold in" system. I'll run it by the client. I'm not sure he has ever seen one.


----------



## djodenda

bobperry said:


> We are going to 3D print it and cast it from the 3D part. That's new and exciting for me.


I had a conversation about your fittings at work with an NC programmer. In our business, we wouldn't cast that, we'd CNC machine it...

But the idea of 3D printing it and using it as a mold is quite interesting.. Changes radically the cost trade we were considering for Mill vs. Cast discussion..

Be real curious how that all works out.


----------



## bobperry

David:
If you machined it it might get really heavy. I'd like to try to reduce the weight of it if I can.

I'm as curious as you.


----------



## chucklesR

My eldest is a steroliographer or however you spell it - means 3d printer on steroids for all I understand it. 
I bet he'd have a blast working that up. 

Maybe I can get him to do me so $2 dollar blocks up. 

I just need to find the magical 3/8 bolts that Brent uses, I can't find any with a tensile strength he says a common one found in a junk yard will have. 

Smacky, how, if he ever delivers that block, do you propose to test it? 
I had a thought you could use a fish scale to measure the pounds and have one of your sons pull on it until it falls apart. That should do it.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> I think he is confused with Professor Schaffhausen from the movie DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS, one of my favs.


"Can I go to the bathroom?" :laugher


----------



## casioqv

bobperry said:


> Cas:
> I am lucky to live in the PNW where we are surrounded by beautiful purpose designed work boats.


I also grew up in the PNW&#8230; my dad is a marine biologist and I grew up outfitting and working on types of PNW fisheries research vessels. I'd say the older ones (like my dads 1930s cedar salmon trawler) are pretty, but the newer ones are mostly pure function.

Munsons are the epitome of a modern functional and well built PNW workboat, but they're ugly as sin:









There's nothing wrong with Brent's boats- they look and act the part for which they're designed: frugal high latitude self sufficient cruising. If I were doing that, they're exactly the boat I'd want.

If you honestly think Brent's boats don't suit the needs of his customer base, or that he's just a con artist you're way out of touch. I've read many of his customers blogs and they do some incredible adventures and the boats function flawlessly. You guys are all just jerking each other around because you don't get along at a personal level, but the attacks on each others designs make you all look unreasonable.


----------



## bobperry

Cas:
I find that 40-8 rather handsome. It appears to be very well built. Pity to see it on the rocks.

Brent and I inhabit two very different worlds. I think that is fine and I'm glad he has his niche. But his constant attacks on the intelligence of my clients and on anything that doesn't fit his own vision is very silly. We all have our own way of doing things and I like the diversity.


----------



## darksails

Would a steel boat be good for a beginner??


----------



## PCP

darksails said:


> Woild a steel boat be good for a beginner??


I don't think so. For learning you would want a light boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Jeff_H

darksails said:


> Woild a steel boat be good for a beginner??


Probably not, but it depends on how good a sailor you want to become, and there is no one right answer on that. I am not saying that you cannot develop rudimentary skills on a steel boat or eventually learn to sail reasonably well on a steel boat. But if you are trying to learn to sail skillfully and quickly, the best platform to learn on, if you are agile, is a small, centerboard dinghy. The feedback loop is short and you quickly learn boat handling and sail trim skills. Then you can graduate to a more complex boat to develop a broader range fo skillsets.

If you are not all that agile, then the best platform is a responsive, used, production 23-26 foot, fin keel, spade rudder sloop. Again the feedback loop is small so you quickly learn what works and what doesn't, and the boat is cheap to buy so you won't lose much if anything once you out grow it.

In the mean time, try to sail on as many boats as you can so that you will learn for yourself what kind of boat will appeal to you for the long run.

Jeff


----------



## Brent Swain

darksails said:


> Woild a steel boat be good for a beginner??


Absolutely! It is far more forgiving of mistakes.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> I have seen your drawings Brent. I'd ask you to post some more but I don't think I want to look at them. They are crude at best and display very effectively your lack of design talent. But if you have some drawings you are proud of please, by all means post them.
> 
> I saw one of your boats posted here and I really liked it. But I give all credit to the builder, the client and not you. They managed a nice boat depsite your lack of design help. Interestingly it was missing a lot of the BS "special touches".
> 
> " Shafhauer blocks?" I have never heard of those. Could you direct me to a web site so I can see some. You didn't mean Garhauer did you?
> 
> "back when I was extremely naive " Classic BS.


Yes I meant Garhaur. Sorry for the typo. Great blocks, far better than any other commercially made blocks, but certainly no advantage over building your own, and far more costly.


----------



## outbound

Earlier Brent talked about the vurtues of pilothouses. I seriously thought about a pilothouse but went with a hard dodger boat for several reasons.
1. Find if you are on deck to are more likely to pay attention to things like the
seastate
the horizon
the wind
the sounds of your boat
the set of your sails
2.found I'm more likely to watch my sails and adjust if I'm on deck.
3.With the AP remote around my neck but under the dodger I'm comfy and out of the weather but still fully dressed/harnessed to make any adjustments or attend to any urgencies. Whereas in a nice warm pilothouse I have to get fully dressed and rigged up before going out to deal with whatever.
Seems unusual Brent would be a pilothouse fan as it takes you out of the joy of the environs. Kind of like going through a forest on a motorbike smelling and seeing everything versus traveling in a motorhome looking through a window.
Wonder what others think. Guess the full enclosures you see are about the same thing and folks seem to like those. Maybe it's a PNW thing.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Brent:
> you are being silly again. The boat has had a bow roller from day one. It's all there on the drawings. I do produce drawings. It's part of our ultra expensive cast 316 s.s.s stem fitting. Pretty much a clone of the system Hinckley has used for years, effective and attractive. It's been there for anyone to see who has followed the thread. We are going to 3D print it and cast it from the 3D part. That's new and exciting for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand if you can't produce a drawing you probably can't read one either but these renderings should be plain even to you.
> 
> I think Brent has run off. He's trying to find Schafhauer blocks. He did check them out. They must exist.
> 
> I think he is confused with Professor Schaffhausen from the movie DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS, one of my favs.
> 
> I'm sure you are amazed at the beauty of this design Brent but don't tell me. Flattery will get you nowhere.


That looks much better. Can't see the slope of the front too well in the picture, but if you give the forward edge of the roller frame a good forward slope ,it stops the rode from jumping out when side loaded.
Yes, your drawings are the best in the business by a wide margin, but my clients prefer designs based on hands on experience, not theoretical speculation. They believe it is the thought and experience which decides on how good a boat you end up with, not the artsyness of the drawings, especially hands on experience on how steel goes together . That can drastically reduce the difficulty of building a steel boat. No one has had any problem building good boats from my drawings .
Next time I go offshore I am going to experiment with a short bowsprit thru one of my double bow rollers , for light airs . Looks easy to do, and the roller is already there.


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## Brent Swain

Great to see those wide side decks.
The walk thru transom has its pros and cons. Great access but eliminates the chance of a windvane on the stern. I once sailed a very unbalanced 36 footer across the Pacific with a QME style vane. Wandered a lot , but got me there. I hear they work really well on a Columbia 36 with a balanced rudder. While this boat is a bit big for such a rig , if it is very well balanced it could work, if the vane is big enough. It could be offset to one side of the transom .


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## PCP

Brent Swain said:


> Absolutely! It is far more forgiving of mistakes.


Yes I agree. So forgiving that he will never learn how to sail properly

Regards

paulo


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Earlier Brent talked about the vurtues of pilothouses. I seriously thought about a pilothouse but went with a hard dodger boat for several reasons.
> 1. Find if you are on deck to are more likely to pay attention to things like the
> seastate
> the horizon
> the wind
> the sounds of your boat
> the set of your sails
> 2.found I'm more likely to watch my sails and adjust if I'm on deck.
> 3.With the AP remote around my neck but under the dodger I'm comfy and out of the weather but still fully dressed/harnessed to make any adjustments or attend to any urgencies. Whereas in a nice warm pilothouse I have to get fully dressed and rigged up before going out to deal with whatever.
> Seems unusual Brent would be a pilothouse fan as it takes you out of the joy of the environs. Kind of like going through a forest on a motorbike smelling and seeing everything versus traveling in a motorhome looking through a window.
> Wonder what others think. Guess the full enclosures you see are about the same thing and folks seem to like those. Maybe it's a PNW thing.


Minus temperatures forecast here in the next couple of days, not the kind of wind I want to feel. Feeling icy doesn't bring a lot of joy. Hypothermia in an open cockpit clouds ones judgement, as does handling wet charts in an exposed cockpit. I prefer my dry chart drawer , in front of my inside steering seat. When I am in my warm wheelhouse, I can get on deck and handle any urgencies quickly, and get back below quickly enough to not get very wet , certainly not long enough to justify putting on a lot of extra clothes. With the wood stove roaring I dry off any rain drops I've accumulated, and recover any lost body heat quickly .
One can drive for hours in bad weather in a car, and feel only moderately tired, whereas sailing in an open cockpit in rough weather for a relatively short time can leave one feeling exhausted , with ones judgement severely clouded. There is no reason sailing should not be as comfortable as driving.
Try selling a pickup truck which can only be steered from the open box. That is equivalent logic to a sail boat which can only be steered from an open cockpit, or huddled behind a dodger in a following wind. With my wheelhouse, I still have the option of steering from the cockpit , which I often do, in fine weather.. I just like to have the inside option as well.
Being able to raise the floor in a wheelhouse lets you have a lot more floor space aft , wasting a lot less space on cockpit.


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## Brent Swain

PCP said:


> Yes I agree. So forgiving that he will never learn how to sail properly
> 
> Regards
> 
> paulo


Not having the same level of worry means he will sail a lot more , gathering experience far more quickly. He will be much more impulsive in dropping the lines and heading out, any time the urge hits him which it will do far more often, without a lot of worry about making a mistake or hitting something. Lack of such a boat is why so many rarely leave the marina. Its an underestimated factor in owning a boat.
"Rolleyes" is an admission you have no valid points to make, conceding the argument.


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## bobperry

For learning you do not want a forgiving boat. You want a boat that will smack you upside the head and say, "No, stupid, not like that." You want a boat that will quickly respond to your efforts and let you know when you are doing it wrong and when you are doing it right.. I suggest a Laser and be prepared to get wet. Maybe start in a more sedate dinghy than a Laser and work your way up to a Laser. But you will quickly learn the rudiments when swimming is the option. For years this is how we did it. You started in a dinghy and you worked your way up. Is that crazy? It worked very well for me. I have sailed so many racing dinghies I can't recall them all and they made me a more than competant sailor.

I am amazed at the sailors today who think they are experts when they would be brought to their knees in a good, fast dinghy. A good sailor can sail anything. It just takes time.

Re:
the 40-8 work boat
Look at that beautiful powder horn sheer. Some one thought about that. Someone had an eye. Someone designed that. Someone controlled that line. Sure it's a barge but it is a beautiful barge I find the whole craft very nicely designed. There is nothing that says "utilitarian" has to mean ugly. Ugly is just an artifact of lack of design skills.


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## Brent Swain

Bruce Cope, of Cope aluminium boats in Parksville BC, said Oregon, Washington, BC and Alaska are the world capitals of small aluminium work boat development. 
I believe him!


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## bobperry

Good designers love to display their work. Yves-Mare posts a lot of good images of his design work. I'm very proud (probably too proud) of my own design work. How come BS never posts any of his design work?



What we are doing here is just mucking around with cockpit ergonomics, looking to see how the wheel diameter will work and where you have to stand to do what. Basically we are just having fun and designing specifically to our clinet's 5'9" height. You can do this type of in depth design work whe you have a good design budget. We have in this project a generous and appreciative client. He is having a lot of fun wth this, as I am.

Yes, there are other ways to get a boat, obviously. 
This is my way.


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## djodenda

I think the work boat looks fine. 

I learned to sail on small dinghies. I would agree with Bob and Jeff who say that is the fastest way to learn. I learned a lot on them. (My last time on a dinghy was last summer when I was crewing for my daughter on a FJ during a WWU college alumni race... She said I move kind of slow. She is right.)

I would say, that in my later years, I have learned different things on larger boats. In particular, I have learned a lot about sail trim, since the larger boats tend to give you more control of your rig/sails, and time to wander around a bit, scratching your head, and seeing what effect your adjustments are having.

Also, I would say that with a larger boat, and the challenging waters in the PNW, I have learned quite a bit about seamanship, that I wouldn't learn on a small lake.


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## bobperry

In Offenbach's TALES OF HOFFMAN doesn't the puppet maker fall in love with the puppet he makes?


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## djodenda

I'm 5'9" too, Bob.. Real pain to furl the main. It's up pretty high, but I cope.

Looks like a Leisure Furl boom, though.. that will correct that problem.

My dad was a big fan of them. I asked him about in-mast furling.. He said:

"Where would you rather have a problem: 5 feet off the deck or 40?"


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## bobperry

You can learn a lot about sail trim on a wind surfer. But I agree with you Denda. There are a whole world of lessons that you can only learn on a ballasted boat. I prefer a ballasted boat that sail well and responds to my efforts.


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## bobperry

Denda:
Your pappy was a smart man. I prefer my problems at chest height. That's why I have never gone for in mast furling. I've sailed with it a bunch of times and I have never warmed up to it.


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## jak3b

I learned to sail in a succesion of dingys.Not being a particularly strong swimmer or enjoying it all that much I learned where the 'edge' is.I won a fair amount of races to.Im glad I learned that way and also when I learned.We didnt have GPS or loran.The most sophistacated equipment we had was the depth sounder, one of those old ones with the round dial and the little red flasher.I still like sailing that way. Im not interested in to many gadgets. I like to feel the boat.I dont need a electronic device to tell me where the wind is coming from or how strong it is blowing.I like tell tales on the headsails and a bit of yarn on the shrouds.It works for me.GPS is nice though;-).


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## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Denda:
> Your pappy was a smart man. I prefer my problems at chest height. That's why I have never gone for in mast furling. I've sailed with it a bunch of times and I have never warmed up to it.


Ditto. A friends Hunter got a fold in the main about 6' down from the top. Two of us had to winch him up with an assortment of paint sticks and so forth to get it unjammed. It wasn't going in or out or up or down until we got it done.

Luckily, we were at the dock. I'd hate to think what would have happened if we had been out and needed to reef it (roll it in).

I'll take lazyjacks and slab reefing thank you very much. Cheaper, simpler, never jams and you get a better sail.


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## bobperry

Brent:
"Yes, your drawings are the best in the business by a wide margin,"
It's very nice of you to say that. I appreciate it. But there is always someone better. And I'm gunning for them. I'll never get there but it does keep the fire in my belly going. One day I'll be really good at this.


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## smackdaddy

casioqv said:


> There's nothing wrong with Brent's boats- they look and act the part for which they're designed: frugal high latitude self sufficient cruising. If I were doing that, they're exactly the boat I'd want.
> 
> If you honestly think Brent's boats don't suit the needs of his customer base, or that he's just a con artist you're way out of touch. I've read many of his customers blogs and they do some incredible adventures and the boats function flawlessly. You guys are all just jerking each other around because you don't get along at a personal level, but the attacks on each others designs make you all look unreasonable.


There's a very important distinction that you're missing casio. Brent insists that his designs are the superior designs, the _only_ designs that "make any sense". Everything else is expensive crap that is part of some "conspiracy" to rip off the good people of the world. Further, and worse, he berates other designers and their clients - calling them fools and suckers for not seeing the world his way.

Bob doesn't do that.

So, though he'd love people to think it, Brent is ABSOLUTELY NOT "picked on" here or anywhere else. He's merely responded to.

If he could be satisfied with his niche and not feel the need to condemn the other 99.999999999999% of the sailing world - there would be absolutely no problems with Brent Swain. The poor dude just can't seem to do that.

Here's a great example casio (from just a couple of posts ago):



Brent Swain said:


> Yes, your drawings are the best in the business by a wide margin, but my clients prefer designs based on hands on experience, not theoretical speculation. They believe it is the thought and experience which decides on how good a boat you end up with, not the artsyness of the drawings...


Now keep in mind that Brent is addressing this to a dude that has several decades of experience sailing and designing boats - boats that have been very widely praised by people that sail them all around the world.

Would you like to defend these insults now or later?


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## bobperry

Apparently later.

Brent can't open his eyes wide enough to see the thousands of my boats being enjoyed all over the world. He lives in a cave. He is a true luddite. He can't respond to my work without including an insult. He appears to be incapable of it. But that's Brent's personal problem. I keep wondering if he's jealous. He does not seem to be comfortable with his lot in life. But attacking me won't change that.


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## SloopJonB

Just out of curiosity Bob, how many people have been lost at sea in boats of your design? 



That's what I thought.


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## bobperry

Nobody that I am aware of and I would usually hear about something like that. You'd think.

I like it that cas has me as "unreasonable". Seems I'm moving up.


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## darksails

Im thinking of starting on a call 33! Steel is still nice though


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## Classic30

bobperry said:


> Good designers love to display their work. Yves-Mare posts a lot of good images of his design work. I'm very proud (probably too proud) of my own design work. How come BS never posts any of his design work?
> 
> 
> 
> What we are doing here is just mucking around with cockpit ergonomics, looking to see how the wheel diameter will work and where you have to stand to do what.


Hey Bob, don't you reckon she'd look better with an Australian flag on the stern?  

..and I'm curious to see where you plan to put the nav lights..


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## blt2ski

I like pics that the french designers do, Usually there is a very curvy lovely sitting in the cockpit......................

All he has is a HIM, fortunately fully clothed!LOLOL

marty


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## blt2ski

ANy body know why when ever I look at this thread, I need my bobcat with rubber tracks to stay on top of the goo, and the 1 yd sheet bucket to attempt at clearing the goo? 5 yd dumptruck is not big enough to haul all the sheet away either.......sigh.......oh maybe I can get a BIGGER one, maybe with an aruminum bed instead of the wood/steel one.......might be lighter, stronger.......hmmmmmmmmmmm............


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## Classic30

blt2ski said:


> I like pics that the french designers do, Usually there is a very curvy lovely sitting in the cockpit......................
> 
> All he has is a HIM, fortunately fully clothed!LOLOL
> 
> marty


Good point, Marty! Perhaps it's because Bob is trying to work out real-world engineering details.. as opposed to a sales brochure


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## blt2ski

One has to get them curves around things you know.........so why shouldn't one of them curvy's be in HIS photo's too!............


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## darksails

Thanks for the replies guys this will help my decision!


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## Classic30

blt2ski said:


> One has to get them curves around things you know.........so why shouldn't one of them curvy's be in HIS photo's too!............


I reckon it'd detract too much from the boat.

C'mon, you've got to agree that this particular design would sell itself.. and the addition of a curved lovely would only hide the curves beneath.


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## blt2ski

naaaah, a curvy lovely would make the curves below look lovelier!.........that is my story, and I am sticken to it!
well, maybe not quite as I was describing......but a curvy lovely driving me boat! as I drive me dinghy!


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## blt2ski

I can not believe it....I found the quinsential BS boat, in a post here in sailnet! wow....unbelievable.....I must be on a role tonight!......just amazing...........



Bilgewater said:


> I photo-shopped the registration number to protect the innocent.
> 
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> Work in progress...Wait for it!
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> Introducing "Shingle Boat"
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> If you can reno a house, you ran reno a boat!
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> THE END...uke uke uke


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## Bob142

I saw this boat yesterday and he is still SAILING...


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## casioqv

The shingle boat is pretty scary!



bobperry said:


> Cas:
> I find that 40-8 rather handsome. It appears to be very well built. Pity to see it on the rocks.


I like the pointed bow hammerhead Munsons but those 'tailgate bow' ones just look weird to me. I wouldn't worry too much about it on the rocks though&#8230; it's what it's designed for. Munsons are beyond tough and have replaceable wear plates on the hull.

My dads research Munson sank twice on the Columbia River due to defective bolts on the jet drive, and both times he scuba dived to the bottom, hooked on a cable, and winched it all the way back up onto land without any damage to speak of.



outbound said:


> Whereas in a nice warm pilothouse I have to get fully dressed and rigged up before going out to deal with whatever.


A pilothouse makes a lot of sense if you're in latitudes/weather where it's physically impossible to survive a long watch without a survival suit. Brent's boats aren't designed around serving martinis on a tropical yacht club dock.



smackdaddy said:


> So, though he'd love people to think it, Brent is ABSOLUTELY NOT "picked on" here or anywhere else.


I think you should re-read your posts in this thread if you really think that.



Brent Swain said:


> certainly no advantage over building your own, and far more costly.


Minney's Yacht Surplus in SoCal sells used blocks for really cheap&#8230; I'd have a hard time justifying the time of building one. Your blocks look tough as nails, but I doubt they can get to the low friction levels that a mass produced ball or roller bearing block achieves. A well made used block lasts nearly forever, I am mostly using ugly looking 1970s Schaefer blocks I salvaged for free off a derelict I found adrift.


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## blt2ski

When I was doing some work on Crane Island, I noticed A LOT of the folks that lived on the islands that did not have ferry service, had a boat that could do as the Munson 40-8. All were aluminum for the most part. A steel one or two here and there. but aluminum was the main one. There is another style or two of ALum boat used too, along with a few fiberglass ones. But would suspect aluminum is used as that is how you had to get things to the land, ie land the boat on the rock, unload,quickly and head back out, or if the tide was going out, you were stuck on the shore, or only land during flood tides! 

I do agree the fronts on boats like the 40-8 were ugly if you will, but from a practical use standpoint, VERY functional and useful!

Marty


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## casioqv

I think this is a good looking Munson... it'll do 40 knots and is built for offloading supplies while pounding onto a rocky shore. My dads research Munson when I was a kid was very similar to this. Sorry for the lack of sailboat content!


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## PCP

casioqv said:


> ...
> There's nothing wrong with Brent's boats- they look and act the part for which they're designed: frugal high latitude self sufficient cruising. If I were doing that, they're exactly the boat I'd want.
> 
> If you honestly think Brent's boats don't suit the needs of his customer base, or that he's just a con artist you're way out of touch. I've read many of his customers blogs and they do some incredible adventures and the boats function flawlessly. You guys are all just jerking each other around because you don't get along at a personal level, but the attacks on each others designs make you all look unreasonable.


What makes a boat good is not the drawings you make of it but the level of satisfaction that they provide to the users and clients. That has normally a reflex in the number of boats built.

Regarding those two points I have only heard good comments regarding the owners and users of BS boats and it seems to me that there are a large number of his boats around, specially if we consider the tiny market they are pointing too.

Regarding boat designs, it is normally not an Architect that makes beautiful 3d renderings but an artist (or technician) specialized on that type of work to promote the boat. An Na does not have need of beautiful 3d renderings to design a boat. Of course the drawings will only look good if the boat is well designed but you can have a nice boat without all those nice 3d renderings and they are not the essence of the work of a NA.

What makes BS annoying is not his work but the very limited vision he has about yachts, yacht designs and their different uses and markets. His position regarding sailboats would be similar to the one that wanted to convince that a traditional Jeep is the right and only type of car to everybody and to all functions different types of cars are designed to provide. A ridiculous view and because he maintains this absurd posture and attacks all others that think rightly otherwise ( including BP) his boats end up to be denigrated too.

As you say there is nothing wrong with his boats but there is something very wrong with Brent position regarding sailboat design.

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

I only put people in my drawings when I need to illustrate and ergonomic point.


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## bobperry

Classic:
I haven't given any thought to running lights. I imagine we'll put the on the pulpits as usual.

A note on 3D renderings:
Paulo is correct. Most designers have someone working with them who takes care of the 3D work. The 3D work takes shape from my 2D drawings that I produce in the normal design sequence. 3D renderings are very useful to help the client get a feel for the new boat. They also allow us to explore in depth different aesthetic options. I woud not be giving my clients "full design services" if I did not offer 3D modelling as part of the package. But it is not cheap. A design from me is going to cost the client betwee 8.5% and 10% of the build cost. I tell my clients up front that I was the design budget that gives me the freedom to do my very best work. I am not interested at all in producing a cheap design.

But 3D work is not about just producing pretty pictures. We can take our 3D files an send the to a CNC shop where they can carve molds or plugs out of foam full sixe. These 
tools" will be used to produce the hull, keel, rudder and deck for the boat down to the last detail. This puts a huge burden on the design today to produce design documents that take the place of many hours of hand lofting on the shop floor in order to produce full size patterns and templates for the boat. But it also unsures that a good designer today can exersize far more control over the finished product.

I'm proud of what I do. I know I do it well. I am happy to show off my design work.
Here are some pics showing howthe pilot house/hard dodger came together for the 62' build at PSC right now. The last pic shows the foam mold after being CNC cut from the 3D file. This will be a 2.5 million dollar boat. No room for BS here.

If you look carefully at the 3D models you will see the drip groove running accross the back end of the pilot house. This is there to prevent water from dripping down into the cockpit. I can't think of everything but I can try.


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## bobperry

Here is the finished pilot house on the deck.


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## blt2ski

I have found when one does some of the 3d work, or when an architect does a bit more on the plans than a basic line drawing or two or three, one is able to many times see the project better up front. Some folks have no way to picture things like this in their brains from a 2d paper plan. 

Then one can also from a 3d rendering, figure out empty places with in the plan that can be better utilized etc too.

Granted I am coming at this from a landscape plan as I have been a contractor for 30 some years, and do have a design degree. BUT, one can see more from a Architect that does 20-30 pages of plans views etc vs a 1-3 page simple plan as I typically did. Probably because I prefered to be getting my hands dirty in the soil, cutting the concrete wall blocks or pavers, etc to spending my day at a desk drwaing the plans. 

Marty


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## blt2ski

Cas,

Your dads research boat is more of the look "most" folks that live int he islands have for a commuter boat, but usually in the 18-25' range.

Marty


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## smackdaddy

casioqv said:


> I think you should re-read your posts in this thread if you really think that.


Casio - I was actually an early supporter of Brent's...here and elsewhere. My increasingly biting posts were in direct response to his increasingly insulting posts - toward me and others - as well as the blatant inaccuracies in those posts. It always starts somewhere, dude.

I've never been one to just be diplomatic while some dude goes off the rails. Brent goes off the rails...very aggressively.


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## Faster

I think many boats have an 'awkward' angle of view.. ie some aspect that looks off, an angle or a line that doesn't please the eye, but move up/down/over a few feet and it's gone. (with our boat it's from dead astern) 

The ability to render in 3D before the finalized build plans must make it possible to recognize and perhaps address such an issue before its too late.


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## aeventyr60

SloopJonB said:


> Just out of curiosity Bob, how many people have been lost at sea in boats of your design?
> 
> That's what I thought.


I've been lost at sea on one of Bob's boats for years....


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## bobperry

Aev:
Glad to see you are surviving the ordeal of owning one of my boats.


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## aeventyr60

I guess you didn't train em to come home.


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## PCP

bobperry said:


> Classic:
> I haven't given any thought to running lights. I imagine we'll put the on the pulpits as usual.
> 
> A note on 3D renderings:
> Paulo is correct. Most designers have someone working with them who takes care of the 3D work. The 3D work takes shape from my 2D drawings that I produce in the normal design sequence....
> 
> But 3D work is not about just producing pretty pictures. We can take our 3D files an send the to a CNC shop where they can carve molds or plugs out of foam full sixe. These
> tools" will be used to produce the hull, keel, rudder and deck for the boat down to the last detail. This puts a huge burden on the design today to produce design documents that take the place of many hours of hand lofting on the shop floor in order to produce full size patterns and templates for the boat. But it also unsures that a good designer today can exersize far more control over the finished product.
> ....


Bob, I did not said that NA or Architects, for that matter don't work in 3D programs and that those are not useful even if it is possible to get very good work working only in 2D if the one doing that has a capacity to see in the brain those designs in 3D, a kind of a lost science for new Architects that have been trained working directly in 3D. I think you call that : having a good eye

I was talking about nice renderings and for the ones that don't know much about CAD, it is the designs with the water, colors, land, kind of photorealistic images.

Architects that work in 3D use that kind of wire frames you are talking about and if needed, just to get a better feeling they use a very simple rendering to give a better idea of the shapes. Of course you know this, I am just trying to make it clear to all.

What I was saying is that those nice photo-realistic effects (with a landscape) are normally not made by architects but by specialists and serve mainly to have a feedback from the client or to promote the work, not for design purposes.

Regards

Paulo


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## Stumble

Bob,

Those are some beautiful designs, but may I make a suggestion?

You were talking about casting some of the fittings on the boat by printing 3d molds. I would really recommend against this. Casting is great where strength and porosity aren't concerns, but in structural applications it is a little questionable. 

When I was working for a titanium fabrication company we did a lot of custom work with 3d printed molds, but instead of casting we used a process called sintering. It is similar to casting in that a mold is made then material is poured in, but unlike casting it uses powdered metal which is then heated and held under high pressure. The heat/pressure causes the powder to fuse into a solid mass, but without the voids typical of a cast part. 

Basically you get the formability of a cast part with the strength of a machined part. Once you make the decision to make custom parts, the cost between the two is pretty minimal. Sintered parts are more expensive, but not terribly so.


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## bobperry

Stmble:
Many thanks for the tips. I will pass that along when the time comes.
Thanks for the compliment.

Paulo:
Personally I don't like those added background scene effects. I think they detract from the pure design. But my client likes them.


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## Stumble

Bob,

I looked it up, and there is now a new sintering technique that has come along since I left. It's called laser sintering, and actually doesn't require a mold to be made. Instead of using the CAD drawing to make molds, they use a 3d printer to directly make the part from titanium, which reduces the cost even more, and makes prototyping even faster.

I know in titanium it can match the strength of a machined part (+\- 2%) versus a cast part, and I assume the same would be true for stainless.

See Benefits of laser sintered titanium - AMD ? Aerospace Manufacturing and Design for a brief primer on the process.


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## bobperry

Stumbler:
My 3D guy Jody Culbertson III is very up to date on these processes. I will pass your info along to Jody. Thanks for the help. That's exactly why I hang out hear.


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## mark2gmtrans

Okay, after a very long absence, ( I think I had withdrawals and everything LOL) I got a chance to get on here and check in you guys...

Beautiful boats from Bob, good comments from many others, pointed sarcasm and some great wise cracks from Smackers, and of course BS from BS...

I have been out in the wild world of work trying to stack up a little cash to be able to meet my own goals on purchasing a nice boat, and I have done fairly well, so hopefully sometime next year. The K43 Kettenburg I want is still available, and I think it will still be by the time I get all my money together and can take a few months off to get her and move her up further into the PNW to ado a little more work on her.

I was actually up in Astoria, Oregon the other day and man, I really miss the ocean. It was cool, and rainy, and just awesome. Unfortunately I was incredibly ill and I just could not go out and do anything, seems the flu or possibly a mild ( if that was mild I would hate to have seen harsh) case of food poisoning. I wanted to go do some stuff but all I could do was get a room at the hotel and hibernate in between trips to the head.

You guys have fun, and enjoy your discussions, I am up in New Jersey today and hopefully on the way back to Texas tonight, so I won't have time to do much here either. It is too bad that my work is a lot like work, not like Bob's work which is a lot like a love affair...

Mark


----------



## kimbottles

Mark,

I have sailed on a K-43 and they are very nice vessels. IMHO they are the best of Kettenburg's (much better looking than the K-50). Hope you get her!

Kim


----------



## mark2gmtrans

kimbottles said:


> Mark,
> 
> I have sailed on a K-43 and they are very nice vessels. IMHO they are the best of Kettenburg's (much better looking than the K-50). Hope you get her!
> 
> Kim


I was on board a K43 for the first time a few years ago, and it was just truly a classic sailing vessel.

I know of several that are for sale and all are within my price range, of course the purchase is only the beginning on these boats because of the age a full update on electrical and other systems is prudent. I have factored this cost in and still will have the money to do it, and since I will live on this boat until I die it is not a hard decision. I am just working for this one last little bit before I get on the boat to be able to do it right. Lord willing I will be able to make the move sometime mid year 2014 and that will be fine.

I am NOT posting photos because that is a sure fire way to see the one I want go to someone else LOL.

Mark


----------



## kimbottles

Smart man!


----------



## smackdaddy

Mark - make sure to touch base with CharlieCobra around here. He is a master of wood boat renovation and has done some phenomenal work on a couple of Kets (and others).

Baggett and Sons Marine Restoration


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## bobperry

I was talking to Charlie yesterday. He's just finishing up a big project, Fisher 46.


----------



## AlaskaMC

Where is Charlie these days? I miss his posts on here. It was great to see what was going on at Baggett and Sons.


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## bobperry

Alaska:
Charlie is in Bellingham working his fanny off.


----------



## Brent Swain

mark2gmtrans said:


> Okay, after a very long absence, ( I think I had withdrawals and everything LOL) I got a chance to get on here and check in you guys...
> 
> Beautiful boats from Bob, good comments from many others, pointed sarcasm and some great wise cracks from Smackers, and of course BS from BS...
> 
> I have been out in the wild world of work trying to stack up a little cash to be able to meet my own goals on purchasing a nice boat, and I have done fairly well, so hopefully sometime next year. The K43 Kettenburg I want is still available, and I think it will still be by the time I get all my money together and can take a few months off to get her and move her up further into the PNW to ado a little more work on her.
> 
> I was actually up in Astoria, Oregon the other day and man, I really miss the ocean. It was cool, and rainy, and just awesome. Unfortunately I was incredibly ill and I just could not go out and do anything, seems the flu or possibly a mild ( if that was mild I would hate to have seen harsh) case of food poisoning. I wanted to go do some stuff but all I could do was get a room at the hotel and hibernate in between trips to the head.
> 
> You guys have fun, and enjoy your discussions, I am up in New Jersey today and hopefully on the way back to Texas tonight, so I won't have time to do much here either. It is too bad that my work is a lot like work, not like Bob's work which is a lot like a love affair...
> 
> Mark


I've heard some have greatly improved those Kettenburgs by pulling the keel hung rudder off and replacing it with a separate rudder much further aft, hung on a skeg. I did that on my first boat and the improvement was huge. The hull was still unbalanced , but at least I could control her her downwind.


----------



## Brent Swain

Faster said:


> I think many boats have an 'awkward' angle of view.. ie some aspect that looks off, an angle or a line that doesn't please the eye, but move up/down/over a few feet and it's gone. (with our boat it's from dead astern)
> 
> The ability to render in 3D before the finalized build plans must make it possible to recognize and perhaps address such an issue before its too late.


Looking at a boat with as sheer form the stern quarter makes the sheer look shortened and ugly sometimes.


----------



## Faster

Brent Swain said:


> Looking at a boat with as sheer form the stern quarter makes the sheer look shortened and ugly sometimes.


Yes.. Another example of this was the "salmon snout" bows we saw on the last AC monos from certain angles...


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Casio - I was actually an early supporter of Brent's...here and elsewhere. My increasingly biting posts were in direct response to his increasingly insulting posts - toward me and others - as well as the blatant inaccuracies in those posts. It always starts somewhere, dude.
> 
> I've never been one to just be diplomatic while some dude goes off the rails. Brent goes off the rails...very aggressively.


I have made no inaccuracies in my posts, only ideas which contradict your cast in stone ideas ,which no amount of logic can dislodge. I doubt you ever supported the logic I gave, "throw money at a ship swindlers"being the one approach you support


----------



## Brent Swain

I just marked out the plates for another 36, for a young couple who are as keen as anyone can get ,to get started . After owning several boats they concluded that the only way to get what they want is to build their own, from scratch.By the time that boat is together, there will be three more people who can build my designs,
So turning people down wont mean refusing their right to own a good steel boat. 
More play time for me.


----------



## AlaskaMC

bobperry said:


> Alaska:
> Charlie is in Bellingham working his fanny off.


Next time I am down that way I would love to visit that shop.


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## bobperry

"Looking at a boat with as sheer form the stern quarter makes the sheer look shortened and ugly sometimes. "

Really? Well I guess you would be very familiar with that problem.

I work those problems out beforehand with some good drawings and for the last few years 3D modelling work as a double check. I don't have to guess.

Not an ugly line or "surprise" in sight.


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## bobperry

Alaska:
George is a great and generous guy. I'm sure he'd like a vistor.


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## bobperry

Hey! Outbound:
I'm am starting on the design work for Phil next week. This sould be fun.


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## outbound

He is a great guy. Are you doing the aft cockpit 52.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I have made no inaccuracies in my posts...


Actually, "inaccuracies" is a very diplomatic term for the whoppers in this compilation:

BS Yachts Marketing Program

They're your words, Brent. Own 'em.


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## bobperry

"Whoppers" ? With cheese?
Not my favorite burger but any burger in a storm.

Why does BS disappear when you invite him into a discussion involving reality?
If you are a "designer" then show us your "designs". That seems so rudimentary. You must have one or two. Show us. Just one set of hull lines drawn by you,,,,,,

It is not going to happen.


----------



## SloopJonB

I was reading an article today about old time boatbuilders working at the waters edge building good size workboats strictly by eye and experience - no plans, no 1/2 models, no nuthin except tradition and experience.

It struck me that BS is more or less the modern rendition of that craft.


----------



## aeventyr60

Brent Swain said:


> I just marked out the plates for another 36, for a young couple who are as keen as anyone can get ,to get started . After owning several boats they concluded that the only way to get what they want is to build their own, from scratch.By the time that boat is together, there will be three more people who can build my designs,
> So turning people down wont mean refusing their right to own a good steel boat.
> More play time for me.


Brett, if you can break yourself away from your warm fire in that snug pilot house we'd appreciate some pictures of the build in process. Show us your stuff man.


----------



## casioqv

aeventyr60 said:


> Brett, if you can break yourself away from your warm fire in that snug pilot house we'd appreciate some pictures of the build in process. Show us your stuff man.


Here's some good photos of a swain 26 being built:
Kim's Boat - TheBoat's Photos

And a 36: http://www.sv-mom.com/construction.html

I don't know anything about building boats (steel or otherwise), but I find Brent's boats and philosophy interesting.


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## bobperry

Cas:
I checked your links out. I find the hulls quite nice in their basic shape. I'm not keen on twin keels for obvious performence reasons but I recognize their benefits. But I do think the method is responsible for the shapes produced and certainly not Brents "drawings". But credit where credit is due the hulls look nice in an old fashioned way and they do look pretty fair. I have never seen Brent post a set of lines. I doubt I ever will.

But the deck structures are straight from hunger. The boy just has no eye as shown in his crude drawings. Deck shapes are grim and where they are less than grim I would have to credit the builder and certainly not Brent. It's kind of a shame because with some desig skill the boats could look quite good and making the deck shapes better would not add a nikckel to the cost.


----------



## Faster

bobperry said:


> .....
> But the deck structures are straight from hunger. ...... It's kind of a shame because with some design skill the boats could look quite good and making the deck shapes better would not add a nickel to the cost.


This sort of thing happens with a lot of fishboat conversions too.. some are gorgeous... the added cabin extensions 'flow' with the original and the sheer lines, windows are raked appropriately, etc.. In other cases the house was taken off and some gawd-awful square squat plywood box erected in it's place.. shudder.. and you end up with zero 'row away factor'...


----------



## bobperry

Faster:
I agree.
When I was a kid I was struck by the beauty of Bill Garden's Bristol Bay boat conversions.
There was one in particular, GULL. Most of these conversions had their freeboard raised and in doing that they often lost the grace of the original sheer. But GULL retained the original freeboard and it was a beauty. As I have said here repeatedly there is no reason stalwart workboats can't be a thing of beauty in the hands of a skilled and sensitive designer.


----------



## seascene

I live on a Brent Boat 36' past 7 yrs now since retirement. My first sailboat after a lifetime in Ontario canoe country and a move to BC was a 30' Alberg similie Pacific 30. One winter in that misery was enough for me. One day soon afterward I saw a steel boat seated on its twin keels sheltered from the wind far into the cove away from the storm water tossing all the other anchored boats about. I investigated...was invited in for tea. The interior was dry and beautifully warmed by the wood stove. Hull was tight looking, smooth and beautifully painted. Steel rails, stout sampson posts, no nonsense windlass and firm under the foot feel overall. I had found my retirement. I have followed this thread a bit with some surprise. Giving credit where it is due to both arguments re Bob and Brent is my take on this. Both guys impress me for their respective long experiences and knowledge. Respectfully to all... a steel boat guy.


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## bobperry

I like any well dsigned boat. I have zero against a nice steel boat. I have designed several. I have no "argument" unless it's my aversion to poor design work and the BS claim that if you don't do it my way you are ignorrant. The clients who commission custom designs from me are far from ignorrant. I also like to pass along what I have learned. Here I am on Thursday teaching a class of 5th graders how to draw square rigged ships. I have done this every year for about 25 years. It's a lot of fun.


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## SloopJonB

Faster said:


> This sort of thing happens with a lot of fishboat conversions too.. some are gorgeous... the added cabin extensions 'flow' with the original and the sheer lines, windows are raked appropriately, etc.. In other cases the house was taken off and some gawd-awful square squat plywood box erected in it's place.. shudder.. and you end up with zero 'row away factor'...


I've seen a few that are the equal or better of purpose designed trawler yachts.

http://bellingham.craigslist.org/bod/4145271566.html

They are a small minority though - most are the plywood box style unfortunately.


----------



## blt2ski

I have a firend in Everett that lives on an old fishing boat, left it as is for the most part. IT is a cool boat!

Bob, glad you are doing what you are doing, will allow them kids to see other things people can do than "JUST GO INTO" say Boeing, Microsoft, google etc for a couple three or four BIG employers here in Puget sound. Could be yacht design, cartooning, art work of somesort. Or another design field such as home/building architecture. Great for kids to get this kind of exposure.

I do agree on the bad design. always PO'd me when I see a new home, initial great looking landscape, only to see that the in house designer or the spec of the builder to the landscaper put a blinking Doug Fir 7' off a corner of a house! For you on the east coast, this is like putting an OAK, or Maple 7' off the corner of a house. What happens to that tree in 10 yrs? overgrown, needs to be moved, usually cut down.......what a waste of what should be a great looking tree if put in a BIG enough yard, in the correct place, a tree worth some money down the road per say.

Marty


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Actually, "inaccuracies" is a very diplomatic term for the whoppers in this compilation:
> 
> BS Yachts Marketing Program
> 
> They're your words, Brent. Own 'em.


You mean like the Whopper ; A guy with your zero steel boat experience knows more about what is inaccurate in steel boat discussions, than someone who has built ,designed, maintained, cruised in and lived aboard steel boats for decades and built 38 of them?
Or the whopper " To build a steel sailboat , which has almost zero straight lines,one has to have a brake press, which can only bend straight lines.?
Steve ,you wouldn't know an inaccuracy in steel boat discussions if it bit you in the ass. You now almost nothing about the subject of this discussion, having zero hands on experience with it, as do most of the other critics in this discussion.


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## bobperry

Relax Brent, chill. You protest too much. No need to be so angry.


----------



## Brent Swain

aeventyr60 said:


> Brett, if you can break yourself away from your warm fire in that snug pilot house we'd appreciate some pictures of the build in process. Show us your stuff man.


There are lots of them on the origamiboats site ( yahoo groups)


----------



## aeventyr60

Brent Swain said:


> There are lots of them on the origamiboats site ( yahoo groups)


I had a look at the sites a previous poster noted. Interesting, but displaced the notion that it was going to be a quick build or any cheaper then buying a well found GRP boat.

I could see making one as an expedition style vessel for high latitude sailing. More of a work boat style sailing machine. Rugged, tough, not having to worry about brightwork or shiny paint jobs. Easy to pull up to an old piling pier. Won't attract a lot of attention either.


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## bobperry

Probably hurt the old piling pier.
There should be a law.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Cas:
> I checked your links out. I find the hulls quite nice in their basic shape. I'm not keen on twin keels for obvious performence reasons but I recognize their benefits. But I do think the method is responsible for the shapes produced and certainly not Brents "drawings". But credit where credit is due the hulls look nice in an old fashioned way and they do look pretty fair. I have never seen Brent post a set of lines. I doubt I ever will.
> 
> But the deck structures are straight from hunger. The boy just has no eye as shown in his crude drawings. Deck shapes are grim and where they are less than grim I would have to credit the builder and certainly not Brent. It's kind of a shame because with some desig skill the boats could look quite good and making the deck shapes better would not add a nikckel to the cost.


Bob, those are broad and vague generalizations. What do you man by Straight from hunger?" What do you mean by Grim? What specifically don't you like about my decks? Can you be more specific. I cant respond to vague generalizations, made with meaningless, home made phrases.
My computer appears to have been blocked from this site, and the library computer has been deleting whole paragraphs, randomly, without warning. Others here have been having the same problem. That is why I haven't been able to get on this site lately. It seems to be working tonite . I have also been helping a friend move from his freezing, dripping, leaky stock fibreglass boat, onto his new, warm, dry well insulated Brentboat. Nothing but one bunk and a woodstove for interior in his Brentboat so far, but light years more comfortable.


----------



## Brent Swain

aeventyr60 said:


> I had a look at the sites a previous poster noted. Interesting, but displaced the notion that it was going to be a quick build or any cheaper then buying a well found GRP boat.
> 
> I could see making one as an expedition style vessel for high latitude sailing. More of a work boat style sailing machine. Rugged, tough, not having to worry about brightwork or shiny paint jobs. Easy to pull up to an old piling pier. Won't attract a lot of attention either.


Do you mean GRP boat or GRP hull? When the metal work has been done, you have your lifelines tankage, cleats windvane, anchor winch, hatches, cleats and so much more that you have to go out and buy for a GRP boat. You can build a lot of gear from the scraps including anchors How much GRP can you buy for that amount? Enough to build a36 ft shell?


----------



## aeventyr60

Don't get yer panties into an uproar there Brent. Of course GRP is the hull. Still don't see any big cost savings. Yep, sure lots of bits and pieces can be fabricated from the scraps, found it interesting when the guy had to cut some 125+ tabs for the interior, weld another 100 or so SS nuts to the deck and all the other detail work you conveniently forget to mention. Wiping down the interior hull with vinegar, finding a guy to spray foam the interior, galvanizing the stringers, etc, etc, etc. Sounds like folks had to run all over creation to cob together a boat.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> You mean like the Whopper ; A guy with your zero steel boat experience knows more about what is inaccurate in steel boat discussions, than someone who has built ,designed, maintained, cruised in and lived aboard steel boats for decades and built 38 of them?
> Or the whopper " To build a steel sailboat , which has almost zero straight lines,one has to have a brake press, which can only bend straight lines.?
> Steve ,you wouldn't know an inaccuracy in steel boat discussions if it bit you in the ass. You now almost nothing about the subject of this discussion, having zero hands on experience with it, as do most of the other critics in this discussion.


Brent, baby, it takes ZERO "steel boat experience" to compare your conflicting claims in one post with those in another. It takes ZERO "steel boat experience" to research your untrue claims on the interwebs.

So actually, yes, I (and others who care to take the time to check them out) can easily spot your frequent "inaccuracies" when you post. You're just not that smart...despite your YEARS of "steel boat experience". Such experience simply makes the whoppers that much more inexcusable. So I'm just trying to make sure your inaccuracies/whoppers don't bite anyone else in the ass.

BTW - I'm sitting on my Hunter, toasty warm with a 2 degree C north wind blowing 25 knots, I'm drinking a fine scotch, listening to great music, and glad I'm not stuck with a steel boat and the bitterness that seems to come with it.


----------



## bobperry

Holy cow Smack:
Can I have a glass of that fine scotch?

I've got the Tv on waiting for U of W Huskies game, my wife and my son are graduates. I had a nice dinner and I'm not willing to put up with any BS tonight.

I think I got a new client today. We'll see. He is a spin off from the QUAIL pioject He will have to pay for the very best design work, I tell my clinets that I have to have the budget to do my very best work. It's what I do. I am good at it. That's the way I like to work.


----------



## aeventyr60

Tough life on these GRP boats. 28c here in Thailand. Mango and papaya for brekkie. A stroll down the beach for a 2 buck lunch, maybe a massage later. I'll think about a scotch later. Or a G & T when the sun gets a little lower


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Holy cow Smack:
> Can I have a glass of that fine scotch?


Here - to show that I actually tell the truth about things when I post:






No whoppers here!


----------



## chall03

This thread is worthless without scotch.


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
I sat down and posted a long answer to yur last questions to me. Then I deleted it. I don't think you are interested in what I think of your work so why bother. I think what I posted would just stir up more animosity. Except for right here on this web site our worlds will never collide. Oh, there is the problem of your friend buying my Passport but I suspect you can get over that. I trust none of my sailing friends will buy a BS boat. I think it's better if you just go your way and I'll go mine. We both have very different styles that share nothing whatsoever in common. I can't see that changing.

"Straight from hunger" is a common expression, maybe you could Google it. I did.

"Grim" is a common word, surprised you have never heard it before. It's not "home made" you can Google a definition.


----------



## bobperry




----------



## Faster

bobperry said:


>


That was one CLASSIC comic strip!

Hope none of my students see that.... I'm going to have to reword some of my test questions!!


----------



## SloopJonB

aeventyr60 said:


> Don't get yer panties into an uproar there Brent.


I'm afraid they're permanently in a 3-strand twist.


----------



## Brent Swain

aeventyr60 said:


> Don't get yer panties into an uproar there Brent. Of course GRP is the hull. Still don't see any big cost savings. Yep, sure lots of bits and pieces can be fabricated from the scraps, found it interesting when the guy had to cut some 125+ tabs for the interior, weld another 100 or so SS nuts to the deck and all the other detail work you conveniently forget to mention. Wiping down the interior hull with vinegar, finding a guy to spray foam the interior, galvanizing the stringers, etc, etc, etc. Sounds like folks had to run all over creation to cob together a boat.


I have 35 tabs holding my interior in. Took under an hour, a lot less time than glassing bulkheads in. Using a laser pointer off a centreline wire made them very easy to do ,and accurate.I have never had to weld 125 nuts or any ss nuts on deck. I dont know why anyone would.To be liveable in BC, any boat, including GRP needs to be well insulated . Finding a sprayfoamer takes a few minutes checking the yellow pages, not too physical. Wiping the interior with vinegar taks a few minutes, again not terribly physical labour.
As you can weld all the deck hardware down, it takes far less time than bolting and bedding stuff to fibreglass, and unlike a fibreglass hull, it will never leak or work loose. 
So how about posting a quote for the fibreglassing materials to build a 36 foot hull and deck , so we can compare it to the $9 K for the plate for a 36 ft steel hull and deck etc? Then post the costy of all the gear we build out of $1.50 a pound scrap stainless, plus the anchors we build out of hull' scraps.


----------



## bobperry

Another bad day Brent?

Smackers:
Thanks for the scotch.
Love the video. Like the Miles in the background.
Maybe think of changing your boats's name to FUKASHIMA DEBRIS.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Brent, baby, it takes ZERO "steel boat experience" to compare your conflicting claims in one post with those in another. It takes ZERO "steel boat experience" to research your untrue claims on the interwebs.
> 
> So actually, yes, I (and others who care to take the time to check them out) can easily spot your frequent "inaccuracies" when you post. You're just not that smart...despite your YEARS of "steel boat experience". Such experience simply makes the whoppers that much more inexcusable. So I'm just trying to make sure your inaccuracies/whoppers don't bite anyone else in the ass.
> 
> BTW - I'm sitting on my Hunter, toasty warm with a 2 degree C north wind blowing 25 knots, I'm drinking a fine scotch, listening to great music, and glad I'm not stuck with a steel boat and the bitterness that seems to come with it.


Take it easy on that scotch .It explains why you believe you can pick numbers out of the air, and belive they are more accurate than hands on experience. Is drunkeness directing your posts? It appears to be.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Brent:
> I sat down and posted a long answer to yur last questions to me. Then I deleted it. I don't think you are interested in what I think of your work so why bother. I think what I posted would just stir up more animosity. Except for right here on this web site our worlds will never collide. Oh, there is the problem of your friend buying my Passport but I suspect you can get over that. I trust none of my sailing friends will buy a BS boat. I think it's better if you just go your way and I'll go mine. We both have very different styles that share nothing whatsoever in common. I can't see that changing.
> 
> "Straight from hunger" is a common expression, maybe you could Google it. I did.
> 
> "Grim" is a common word, surprised you have never heard it before. It's not "home made" you can Google a definition.


I take that to mean you have no answers, confirming my comments.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Take it easy on that scotch .It explains why you believe you can pick numbers out of the air, and belive they are more accurate than hands on experience. Is drunkeness directing your posts? It appears to be.


Nah. I don't really like getting drunk. I just like having a tumbler of the good stuff at dusk.

What numbers have I "picked out of the air"? Those numbers are yours dude! If they're wrong (which they typically are) that's your fault - not mine.

Remember, when one continually spews BS, hands-on experience ends up meaning absolutely nothing.

Prost!


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> For learning you do not want a forgiving boat. You want a boat that will smack you upside the head and say, "No, stupid, not like that." You want a boat that will quickly respond to your efforts and let you know when you are doing it wrong and when you are doing it right.. I suggest a Laser and be prepared to get wet. Maybe start in a more sedate dinghy than a Laser and work your way up to a Laser. But you will quickly learn the rudiments when swimming is the option. For years this is how we did it. You started in a dinghy and you worked your way up. Is that crazy? It worked very well for me. I have sailed so many racing dinghies I can't recall them all and they made me a more than competant sailor.
> 
> I am amazed at the sailors today who think they are experts when they would be brought to their knees in a good, fast dinghy. A good sailor can sail anything. It just takes time.
> 
> Re:
> the 40-8 work boat
> Look at that beautiful powder horn sheer. Some one thought about that. Someone had an eye. Someone designed that. Someone controlled that line. Sure it's a barge but it is a beautiful barge I find the whole craft very nicely designed. There is nothing that says "utilitarian" has to mean ugly. Ugly is just an artifact of lack of design skills.


Yes, the best dinghy sailors are the best racing crews. Its the ideal way for beginersto learn. However, for someone just wanting to get off the treadmill, and into the cruising lifestyle, on doesnt have to be able to get the last tenth of a knot out of her. That's throwback to the puritan "Be reasonable and do it the hard way "school of thought.
Definition
Puritanism
The terrible, nagging fear that someone, somewhere, just might be having a good time


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Another bad day Brent?
> 
> Smackers:
> Thanks for the scotch.
> Love the video. Like the Miles in the background.
> Maybe think of changing your boats's name to FUKASHIMA DEBRIS.


Yeah, and the best part was that because the boat _isn't_ BS Steel, I was able to keep the whole thing nice and toasty with a tiny electric ceramic heater (1500 watts). I wasn't continuously belching pollution into the atmosphere - like the Chinese and Brent Swain - with a "roaring" wood stove. Why, I didn't even have to chop any wood! I just plugged the damn thing in!

I wish Brent cared more about our fragile environment. Every man needs to do his part to reduce his carbon footprint a bit.


----------



## Brent Swain

chucklesR said:


> My eldest is a steroliographer or however you spell it - means 3d printer on steroids for all I understand it.
> I bet he'd have a blast working that up.
> 
> Maybe I can get him to do me so $2 dollar blocks up.
> 
> I just need to find the magical 3/8 bolts that Brent uses, I can't find any with a tensile strength he says a common one found in a junk yard will have.
> 
> Smacky, how, if he ever delivers that block, do you propose to test it?
> I had a thought you could use a fish scale to measure the pounds and have one of your sons pull on it until it falls apart. That should do it.


I'd love to find a 3D printer here, who could take the parts of a cheap set of reading glasses, and copy them in nylon or polypropylene ,to make some which would never break.

How do you find the magical 3/16th shackles and pins on a $25 Garhaur block, or the 14 gauge beckets, to match a 3/8th ss bolt? How do you find a half inch jib sheet which is stronger than the sheer strenth of a 3/8th inch ss bolt? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Most riggers match things up for equal strength. So check the boats in your marina, and see what size of rigging wire is held up by 3/8th inch bolts or clevis pins. Then check the tensile strength of that size rigging wire.
I'd like to see this son who can break an inch and a quarter of 3/16th aluminium, times two, with a tensile strength of 45,000 PSI, or sheer a 3/8th inch stainless bolt off, by hand.

Sounds like Steve is not the only one into the scotch today


----------



## bobperry

Brent likes to attack people if he thinks they may be drinking. He thinks he's really clever.
Kind of reminds me of that old Winston Churchill quote. I'll take some liberty:

Brent, "You, sir are drunk!"

Me, Smack, anyone, "Yes, I may be drunk now. But tomorrow when I wake up I will be sober. But you will still be Brent Swain."

I have all the answers I need Brent not sure I want to waste my time explaining them to you. No. Correct that. I am certain I do not want to waste my time explaining them to you. You would just twist everything through your anger colored glasses.

"I'd love to find a 3D printer here, who could take the parts of a cheap set of reading glasses, and copy them in nylon or polypropylene ,to make some which would never break. "

Well that does explain a few things.


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## bobperry

Brent:
I have a pair of glasses with titainium, frames. They are very light, flexible and very strong. I got them from a Canadian friend of mine who owns Passport 48. They are expensive frames but they may be just what you need if you are hard on frames. I can get you contact info for the Canadian guy who sells the frames if you like.


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## AlaskaMC

For the record, between this thread and others Brent has attacked children, marriage, drinking, all boats other than his own etc. I would almost believe that the Brent Swain seen on sailing forums is actually someone else that actually HATES Brent and is using these threads to destroy his otherwise good name. As the real BS hates all things technical he never gets online and sees that a doppleganger is doing all he (or she) can to ruin him. 

It is really hard to believe one person could make the conflicting statements made and really believe them. Reads much more like a caricature. 

Brent, others are criticizing your ideas on sailing, design etc. You turn around and attack their honor. As someone that lives and sails among glaciers and poorly mapped areas, a steel boat would actually be ideal. But after reading your posts, I would simply go find another design. Again, steel isn't the problem here.

This thread started as a "pros and cons of steel sailboats" but has become the pros and cons of BS sailboats vs the greedy criminals that would dare sell you something else. Gee, can't imagine how this went off the rails.


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Yeah, and the best part was that because the boat _isn't_ BS Steel, I was able to keep the whole thing nice and toasty with a tiny electric ceramic heater (1500 watts). I wasn't continuously belching pollution into the atmosphere - like the Chinese and Brent Swain - with a "roaring" wood stove. Why, I didn't even have to chop any wood! I just plugged the damn thing in!
> 
> I wish Brent cared more about our fragile environment. Every man needs to do his part to reduce his carbon footprint a bit.


 Burning wood has the same environmental foot print as the methane which would be produced by letting it rot. So a wood stove is environmentaly neutral. Where does the power for your electric heater come from? Coal powered generating plants? Burning stuff which would otherwise remain burried, is the problem. Friends, who use oil stoves have used up to $290 dollars a month to heat their GRP boats , roughly my entire cost of living. They have been working since their 20s, I have been semi retired.
That is the difference in results, between the two choices. So how soon did your choices ( the ones you advocate) enable you to semi retire?
I find picking firewood off a beach far more enjoyable than going to work 5 days a week to pay Exon and other oil companies, or the coal industry ( and far more environmentaly responsible).
Check out Sea Scene's post. What he failed to mention is that he built one of my 36 footers, then moved off his wet, leaky and cold GRP boat, and said his Brentboat is the most warm, dry and comfortable home he has ever lived in.
Another friend moved off his GRP boat and onto his new Brentboat last night, and said for the first time in a long time, he spent the night warm and dry.
Steve . Would you be just as comfortable underway, if you chose to leave the dock and go cruising in your plastic boat? Not many places to plug a heater in while at anchor, or underway.


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## outbound

Brent- It's a shame those folks had lousy GRP boats. There are so many good ones out there. Just came back from my boat ( have to work tomorrow). Have several sources of heat but just turned on the webasco. Wife likes it cooler then me. She was in the forward master stateroom while I had the thermostat set higher in the saloon. We have a solid glass hull but a layer of insulation was glassed in during construction and the deck is divinycell cored so it has a real high R factor from the get go. It's been freezing rain the last few days up here and today was dry but with 25F and very strong winds. The boat was warm snug and dry. Quiet as a mouse down below. GRP boats, Al boats, wood boats and even Fe boats can all be warm, snug and dry. Realize only wood of the materials mentioned is naturally a good insulator. All the others including yours depend on added materials. Wonder if given steel is a very good thermal conductor if you run into issues with condensation. Especially around the port lights. Also wonder if your weather is as variable as it is up here in New England do you have issues with thermal expansion/contraction working the boat and its fittings? Are there any special techniques in construction required to allow for this issue? Glass, even cored glass doesn't have this concern from what I understand in my limited knowledge.


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## Brent Swain

AlaskaMC said:


> For the record, between this thread and others Brent has attacked children, marriage, drinking, all boats other than his own etc. I would almost believe that the Brent Swain seen on sailing forums is actually someone else that actually HATES Brent and is using these threads to destroy his otherwise good name. As the real BS hates all things technical he never gets online and sees that a doppleganger is doing all he (or she) can to ruin him.
> 
> It is really hard to believe one person could make the conflicting statements made and really believe them. Reads much more like a caricature.
> 
> Brent, others are criticizing your ideas on sailing, design etc. You turn around and attack their honor. As someone that lives and sails among glaciers and poorly mapped areas, a steel boat would actually be ideal. But after reading your posts, I would simply go find another design. Again, steel isn't the problem here.
> 
> This thread started as a "pros and cons of steel sailboats" but has become the pros and cons of BS sailboats vs the greedy criminals that would dare sell you something else. Gee, can't imagine how this went off the rails.


I got attacked by plastic boat advocates any time I gave any of the pros of any steel boats, mostly by those who have a financial stake in listing only cons, people who have no experience in steel boats, cruising long term, maintaining or building in steel. They simply dont want cruisers know the pros. The question was pros and cons of steel boats ,not just cons. Without my contributions, the only ones based on actual extensive steel boat experience, only the cons would have been listed.

However the percentage of steel boats cruising the South Pacifc has steadly increased ,to the point where, in some anchorages, over 60 % of the long term cruisers are in steel boats, while many of the rest wish they were.
Meanwhile, their critics are going to work daily ,telling them that they are doing it all wrong.
In Tahiti, in the late 70's, I read an article by Ted Brewer . Even then he said requests for steel designs in three years had grown from a handful to a huge number. Back then, a large percentage of the cruising boats in Tahiti were steel, especially European boats. 
So the disinformation campaign is not working, on those with actual experience in long term voyaging, and those with the wisdom to listen to them, rather than to armchair experts...

Go ahead ,build who ever's design you want. I don't give a rat's ass whether you buy my plans or not. I have no interest in doing anything for anyone who wants to tell me what opinions I may or may not express, not for any amount of money. My plans are a design service for those who seek a more practical way of building, not a baby sitting service for those who refuse to figure things out, or who get their advice from those who have zero steel boat experience, and who would rather sell you plastic. I'd rater not deal with you; there are enough practical, intelligent people to keep me as busy as I want to be (or more than I want to be). Just tell me where you are building ,so I can sit in the shade and watch you do months of needless extra work , all because my defense of practical steel boats bugs you.

I have never attacked children, just the making of too many of them, at the expense of those who are already here. Children who grew up cruising with me can confirm that.

Marriage? Who hasn't made a derogatory comment about that? What percentage of the human population? Only liars can make that claim.

Drinking? Yes drinking is dense, period! I stand by that. Glorification of drinking has cost far too many lives already, and caused far too much misery, especially for children.


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## bobperry

Seems you are just an all round hater Brent.

Me? I'd like to sit down and chat with anyone who loves boats. I'm a boat lover. Workboats, yachts, powerboats, dinghies, I just like boats. I try hard not to be judgemental towards the owners. I work at taking each person for who they are and not what they sail. You seem to have distilled judgmentalism down to a way of life. You make sweeping generalizations on the character of peolpe by the boats they sail, by what material their boats are made of, by who built the boat, by who designed their boat. Amazing. Meaning, if it's not a BS boat (I love it) then the boat is no good and the owners are no good. They are fools. You have said it time and again. The myopic world of BS. (I know you are etymogically challenged Brent but you can Google it.)

That is what I call ignorance. You do it superbly, over and over.
I have nothing against your boats.
I think little of you.


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Brent- It's a shame those folks had lousy GRP boats. There are so many good ones out there. Just came back from my boat ( have to work tomorrow). Have several sources of heat but just turned on the webasco. Wife likes it cooler then me. She was in the forward master stateroom while I had the thermostat set higher in the saloon. We have a solid glass hull but a layer of insulation was glassed in during construction and the deck is divinycell cored so it has a real high R factor from the get go. It's been freezing rain the last few days up here and today was dry but with 25F and very strong winds. The boat was warm snug and dry. Quiet as a mouse down below. GRP boats, Al boats, wood boats and even Fe boats can all be warm, snug and dry. Realize only wood of the materials mentioned is naturally a good insulator. All the others including yours depend on added materials. Wonder if given steel is a very good thermal conductor if you run into issues with condensation. Especially around the port lights. Also wonder if your weather is as variable as it is up here in New England do you have issues with thermal expansion/contraction working the boat and its fittings? Are there any special techniques in construction required to allow for this issue? Glass, even cored glass doesn't have this concern from what I understand in my limited knowledge.


Yes, a GRP boat can be well insulated and thus warm and dry .Unfortunately few are. A friend used a sprayfoam kit, looked like a couple of propane bottles you hook together, to sprayfoam his GRP boat. He said it was easy to use ,and made a huge difference. He also hired me to build him a wood stove, to eliminate his $200 a month fuel budget. Deck leaks are far more common on GRP boats. Having lived under a plywood deck on my first boat, which was sometimes coated with ice ,inside, I can asure you that wood is no match for foam, when it comes to insulating properties.Then there's the inevitable leaks.
BC weather is probably a lot like your weather. 
A week or two of arctic outflow, below freezing at night , some times thru the day, then a big low comes in and its pinapple express, wind directly from Hawaii for a couple of weeks, about 40 degrees F and tons of rain.
I haven't had any problems with condensation . When I cook, can or heat up a cold boat ,condensation forms on my ports. As soon as I stop cooking ,the wood stove heats and dries the boat out ,and the condensation disappears. Having lots of insulation and a wood stove makes all the difference. I haven't had any problems with differences in expansion. When I asked my father ,a lifetime steam engineer, how much expansion a hot exhaust pipe would have, he said " At 1100 degrees, about a quarter inch in 15 feet". So I don't think we have to worry about it in the temperatures we are dealing with.
For ports, if you push white styrofoam or ethafoam in, in a tight fit ,you get about the same amount of light thru them, with excellent insulation. Works for skylights too.
Time to go do the laundry (a day at the soap opera)


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## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Puritanism
> The terrible, nagging fear that someone, somewhere, just might be having a good time




Like anyone with a non-ferrous boat? Especially one with a glass of scotch?

Think about it Brent.


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## bobperry

I am always concerned about not being able to see the inside of the hull. I have a pal who is a Bristol Bay fisherman with a beautiful alu fish boat. He says he has to rip out his foam every three years and replace it because it gets soaked. Not sure if "soaked" is the word he used. But he says it is an awful job and must be done. I know steel boats can rust from the inside out. Had a friend with a beautiful Dutch built steel boat. He had rust problems from the inside out. I'd like to be able to see what the inside of my hull skin was doing.

Care to educate me when you are done with the laundry Brent. I would would be sincerely interested in your view on this.

I like my laundry room. I can cook, clean, watch footy on the telly and all the while be doing my laundry. I do separate the whites. I'm a whizz at laundry. I don't even let my wife do it. I'm a laundry Nazi.

A classic case of "projecting":
"The terrible, nagging fear that someone, somewhere, just might be having a good time"

I hope that everyone is having a good time.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Burning wood has the same environmental foot print as the methane which would be produced by letting it rot. So a wood stove is environmentaly neutral. Where does the power for your electric heater come from? Coal powered generating plants? Burning stuff which would otherwise remain burried, is the problem.


Ah, yes, more BS/inaccuracies/whoppers.

Here, let me help you out:

http://des.nh.gov/organization/commissioner/pip/factsheets/ard/documents/ard-36.pdf



> The Problem: Smoke from Wood Stoves is a Public Health Risk
> 
> The smoke produced from woodstoves and fireplaces contains over 100 different chemical compounds, many of which are harmful and potentially carcinogenic. Wood smoke pollutants include fine particulates, nitrogen oxides, sulfur oxides, carbon monoxide, volatile organic compounds, dioxins, and furans. Breathing air containing wood smoke can cause a number of serious respiratory and cardiovascular health problems. Those at greatest health risk from wood smoke include infants, children, pregnant women, the elderly, and those suffering from allergies, asthma, bronchitis, emphysema, pneumonia, or any other heart or lung disease.


Or this...

Smoke from wood fireplaces, stoves raises new health concerns ? Environmental Health News



> "We found that wood smoke PM has similar toxicity and effects on DNA as that of vehicle exhaust particles," said University of Copenhagen researcher Steffen Loft, who led a new study of air pollution from wood stoves.


I mean, believe what you want, Brent - but you can't just keep making stuff up and presenting it as fact. That's what we call BS, or environmental denial, or as Buddy tells the fake Santa...






As for where my electricity comes from...I pay about $4/month for what we use. And, building on what you try to claim about how the steel in your boat(s) is only a _minuscule part_ of the incredibly environmentally-destructive process of mining, processing, treating, shipping, welding, etc. steel (you know, messing with stuff that would otherwise remain buried) - whatever way that electricity gets to my little 1500 watt heater will ALWAYS be cleaner than ANY of your methods. I care about the environment. I just wish you would too.



Brent Swain said:


> Friends, who use oil stoves have used up to $290 dollars a month to heat their GRP boats , roughly my entire cost of living. They have been working since their 20s, I have been semi retired.
> That is the difference in results, between the two choices. So how soon did your choices ( the ones you advocate) enable you to semi retire?
> I find picking firewood off a beach far more enjoyable than going to work 5 days a week to pay Exon and other oil companies, or the coal industry ( and far more environmentaly responsible).


I'm semi-retired. I have a very nice balance of work and fun. I love my work and have fun doing it, but I'm doing less of it because I love having more and more fun elsewhere. So, I have absolutely no complaints.

Have fun with your deadly firewood.



Brent Swain said:


> Steve . Would you be just as comfortable underway, if you chose to leave the dock and go cruising in your plastic boat? Not many places to plug a heater in while at anchor, or underway.


Well, two things...first, I have a generator so I can plug in anything I want. I think you're mixing up my very well-equipped boat with your obviously very ill-equipped boat.

But at the end of the day, I have absolutely no desire to be cold and miserable in any circumstance. That's why I live in and sail to warm places.

But, hey, if cold misery makes you as happy as you seem to be, stay right where you are.


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## jak3b

When I was a wee lad my pappy sat me down and said; "Plastics, son that is the future.We must eradicate the steel boat from the earth.It is an abomination and a threat to our way of life. Any time you hear your friends talking about steel boats, dissuade from there foolish ways.We cant have every tom dick and harry out there on our pristine ocean having fun.That would be terrible".Thus was born the massive dis-information campaign against steel boats and Joe sixpack enjoying his early retirement.


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## bobperry

Picking up wet firewood from the beach is more fun than you might think.
Or not. Wet firewood?

I live on the beach. The beach is covered in wood. It gets wet. Really wet.
BS would need a shed built on the back of his boat for his firewood. This I know. This is where I live. Picking up wood off the beach for the eveneing's fire is a myth. Pure BS.

I have two nice Jotul Norwegian fireplaces, one in the living room and one in the master bedroom. I do not burn beach wood in them. Too much salt. Too much corrosion. I have one fireplace going now. It is nice.

.


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## smackdaddy

jak3b said:


> When I was a wee lad my pappy sat me down and said; "Plastics, son that is the future.We must eradicate the steel boat from the earth.It is an abomination and a threat to our way of life. Any time you hear your friends talking about steel boats, dissuade from there foolish ways.We cant have every tom dick and harry out there on our pristine ocean having fun.That would be terrible".Thus was born the massive dis-information campaign against steel boats and Joe sixpack enjoying his early retirement.


So THAT'S where this all started!

I simply received a "Steel Boat Dis-Information Conspiracy" flyer in the mail one day from Exxon and signed right up. Did you get the cool burgee made out of baby seal fur?


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## bobperry

Jak:
Your Grandpappy was a very wise man.

Somewhere, BS is sitting with a PEOPLE magazine watching his laundry spin.


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## jak3b

smackdaddy said:


> So THAT'S where this all started!
> 
> I simply received a "Steel Boat Dis-Information Conspiracy" flyer in the mail one day from Exxon and signed right up. Did you get the cool burgee made out of baby seal fur?


Yup, That and the special cans of tuna with bits of baby dolphins in it.


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## Capt Len

I spent some 30 years wandering on the BC coast and heating with beach and bush wood so have an opinion on whether it can be done. My Dickenson can cost up to 10 bucks a day to do the same and doesn't offer the same satisfaction. So, does my having an opinion about something I know a bit about illicit an automatic negative knee jerk response from other opinionated S N 'ers who may or may not know scat. I can only hope that other redeeming features show to prove that we are not all facetious, stupid or hopelessly biased .Built a wooden gaffer so I"m off thread with the pro/con.


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## smackdaddy

Capt Len said:


> I spent some 30 years wandering on the BC coast and heating with beach and bush wood so have an opinion on whether it can be done. My Dickenson can cost up to 10 bucks a day to do the same and doesn't offer the same satisfaction. So, does my having an opinion about something I know a bit about illicit an automatic negative knee jerk response from other opinionated S N 'ers who may or may not know scat. I can only hope that other redeeming features show to prove that we are not all facetious, stupid or hopelessly biased .Built a wooden gaffer so I"m off thread with the pro/con.


I don't think anyone has said that a woodstove can't heat cheaply. I think one issue above was about being able to gather beach wood each day in your area that would be dry enough to make a fire every night (or figuring out how and where to dry and store wood on a sailboat in sufficient quantities to fuel a stove 24/7 through the winter). I'll let you PNW guys duke it out over how dry the beach wood is around there - but I do absolutely know (even without steel boat experience) that wet wood doesn't like to burn.

Another issue above was that of the woodstove being "environmentally neutral". To try to justify his use of the woodstove as somehow environmentally superior to anything or anyone else out there (his usual MO), Brent threw that whopper on the fire - as it were. Is it a "negative knee jerk response" to refute this hair-brained proclamation with actual facts? Or should we just let it stand because Brent needs some self-esteem?



Brent Swain said:


> I got attacked by plastic boat advocates any time I gave any of the pros of any steel boats, mostly by those who have a financial stake in listing only cons, people who have no experience in steel boats, cruising long term, maintaining or building in steel. *They simply dont want cruisers know the pros.* The question was pros and cons of steel boats ,not just cons. Without my contributions, the only ones based on actual extensive steel boat experience, only the cons would have been listed.


You guys have to remember, even the "plastic boat advocates" in this thread have prpovided plenty of pros about steel boats. The conflict has come when the claimed pros become so over the top that they're simply false. I, for one, absolutely DO want cruisers to know the pros of steel sailboats - even BS boats. I think it's critical that those cruisers have accurate, correct information with which to decide - not just crazed propaganda. You can easily see by the BS Marketing thread that it's more the latter that comes out of BS' posts, not the former. So, the biggest _con_ thus far on steel boats in general is what's laid out in that thread. And they're Brent's own words.


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## blt2ski

"SOMETIMES" the wood on the beach is pretty dry. or it can dry semi quickly when you have a hot fire going. So beach fires can be fun on a dry evening, be it 30F as it is now, or 80F in the summer! Today it would have to be a bit bigger than the summer to stay somewhat warm!

With that, I can see where a propane or diesel heater would be better if on the hook. My new to me ceramic is pretty nice...........what ever suits your fancy!

Time for bed on my side of the coast, have a semi long day tomorrow!

Marty


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## outbound

In prior post asked Brent a few questions and still interested in getting answers. Wonder +/- of sheet vrs sprayed foam. Wonder if using coal tar derivatives and than allowing airspace with limber holes preferred. Wonder +/- of each technique. Was on a Puffin 46 done in steel. Owner was a retired ships captain for VLCC. His boat had coal tar with each section draining to bilge. He had a drop dead gorgeous wood interior. We visited him on a cold day while boat was on the hard. It was nice inside.
I still take exception to Brent's statement about leaky GRP. I've had multiple GRP boats. Production boats, semi production boats and one offs. None leaked. All where very comfy inside with minimal heating requirements. Perhaps cheap boats with just a liner inside are cold but for any quality GRP boat his statements are just not true.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> I am always concerned about not being able to see the inside of the hull. I have a pal who is a Bristol Bay fisherman with a beautiful alu fish boat. He says he has to rip out his foam every three years and replace it because it gets soaked. Not sure if "soaked" is the word he used. But he says it is an awful job and must be done. I know steel boats can rust from the inside out. Had a friend with a beautiful Dutch built steel boat. He had rust problems from the inside out. I'd like to be able to see what the inside of my hull skin was doing.
> 
> Care to educate me when you are done with the laundry Brent. I would would be sincerely interested in your view on this.
> 
> I like my laundry room. I can cook, clean, watch footy on the telly and all the while be doing my laundry. I do separate the whites. I'm a whizz at laundry. I don't even let my wife do it. I'm a laundry Nazi.
> 
> A classic case of "projecting":
> "The terrible, nagging fear that someone, somewhere, just might be having a good time"
> 
> I hope that everyone is having a good time.


Most of the Foulkes and Fehr boats built here had zero paint inside, and were foamed over mill scale. ( "Professionally built boats")
They have had major rust problems under the foam, and many have had plate replaced . I have even seen bare steel on them on the inside,where there a was no foam, flaking thick rust.
I recently worked on a boat for a Coast Guard guy, which was built in the 80's . She was sandblasted inside, and given a coat of cold galvanizing inside ( Interzinc)
She was in remarkably good condition under the zinc. So even that little protection made a huge difference. If you put several coats of epoxy tar on sandblasted or wheelabraded and zinc primed steel ,you wont have a problem in a lifetime. Sprayfoam is no protection. 
My boat is 29 yeas o,and anywhere I have cut a hole thru it for a vent ,thru hull or radio coax , the steel and epoxy under it has been in perfect condition.
Foam will only soak up water if it is foamed right down into the bilge, where it will suck up water like a wick. Fish boats commonly make this mistake . Other wise it is quite watertight. It has to sit in water for a long time to absorb it. Tell your friend to stop the foam above the bilge ,so water can drain out of it , instead of wick up into it. Foam doesn't like to stick to bare aluminium or its oxide coating. Bruce Cope ( of Cope aluminum boats ) told me the best way to get anything to stick to aluminium is a light sandblasting. Next time he scrapes the foam out he should lightly sandblast the bare aluminium , put a primer on it then several coats of epoxy , before foaming . Keep the foam out of the bilge. For insulation down there, insulate the bottom of the floor boards.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> In prior post asked Brent a few questions and still interested in getting answers. Wonder +/- of sheet vrs sprayed foam. Wonder if using coal tar derivatives and than allowing airspace with limber holes preferred. Wonder +/- of each technique. Was on a Puffin 46 done in steel. Owner was a retired ships captain for VLCC. His boat had coal tar with each section draining to bilge. He had a drop dead gorgeous wood interior. We visited him on a cold day while boat was on the hard. It was nice inside.
> I still take exception to Brent's statement about leaky GRP. I've had multiple GRP boats. Production boats, semi production boats and one offs. None leaked. All where very comfy inside with minimal heating requirements. Perhaps cheap boats with just a liner inside are cold but for any quality GRP boat his statements are just not true.


Tried sheet foam on my last boat. No matter how hard I tried to make a vapor barrier it was permanently soaking wet with condensation behind the sheet foam. I ended up sprayfoaming it at the first opportunity. Friends started sheet foaming their waterline hull. It was a lot of work and expense so they sprayfoamed the rest and found the spray foam cost about he same, at a fraction the work. Airspace with limber holes still makes any surface with a 2 degree of temperature difference, a virtual watermaker. You would still have a very damp boat, and a bilge full of water. Full contact spray foam eliminates condensation, giving you a very dry interior.

You are the first GRP boat owner I have met, who lived aboard full time who didn't have deck leaks and cold and condensation problems


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## bobperry

Thanks Brent. I'm going to pass that info along to my buddy with the alu fish boat.

I have something for you for Christmas. I know you will love it. It will save you many gallons of fresh water while you are cruising. I have used it for about ten years. If you PM me your mailing address I can send it to you. You will be amazed.


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## outbound

Bob help me here. Have you heard a litany of complaints about leaks from owners of your designs? 

I do get condensation on the glass of my port lights but it clears if I put the heat on.Think that's not a function of hull material but rather cold glass as it happens in my steel trucks windows as well.But deck leaks haven't been an issue. Brent maybe you been hanging with folks who own unusual boats. Think condensation and deck leak issues are pretty unusual now and usually easily fixed with rebedding.


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## aeventyr60

I spent several years as a liveaboard in Seattle on one of Bob's GRP boats and condensation was of little concern. Good ventilation has always been the key for me. The Dickenson Antarctic diesel fired heater puts out a tremendous of heat, so was always toasty. Didn't seem to be a problem on the South Island in New Zealand either. Guess some boats are better built/maintained then others....


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## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> I have something for you for Christmas. I know you will love it. It will save you many gallons of fresh water while you are cruising.


Sounds like scotch. Heh-heh.


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## bobperry

Out:
No, not to the extent that myopic Brent would have you believe. There are boats with the odd leak. My Valiant 40 had a leak in the foredeck hatch, right over the V berth. I kept my dink stowed over the hatch. That cured it. Chainplates can leak a bit if not sealed properly. I've never had a chainplate leak and I've only ever owned grp boats. My Esprit didn't leak. The mighty PERRYWINKLE did not leak as long as I dogged the foredeck hatch down correctly. But this had zero to do with grp construction. It was just an odd Scandinavian alu hatch.

I have found that most leaks are due to improper bedding. Remove the piece of hardware portlight, etc, re-bed it and there you go, good as gold. Spike removed the handrails on the house top so he could varnish them. When he reinstalled them he did not bed one leg down well. It leaked. Not much but a bit. He took the rail off and re-bed it and it was fixed. It was an easy to locate leak.

I have known some poorly built boats to have hull to deck joint leaks and these can be a real problem. When get a leak like this it doesn't drop down where it comes in usually. You may have a leak up in the forward quarter of your rail but the water will run aft to the low point of the sheer before dripping. This can make finding the leak problematic. But this is a poorly built boat. Think of the problems you could have with a poorly built steel boat and we have all seen those.

Brent gets desperate (oh really?) and gropes for anything he can grasp to attack any boat that is not welded steel. We might as well get used to it. He has very little experience with good grp boats. I would imagine he has never spent any time on a quality grp boat. He will say he has but we know he fibs. His converts come from cheap, crummy grp boats I suspect. They just don't know any better. Brent gives them a cheap boat that doesn't leak and has a companionway door that looks like it came off a Fridgidaire.


----------



## bobperry

Smackers:
If you think I'd waste my time and my scotch sending a bottle to BS then you have not been paying attention.

Send me your mailing address and I'll send you one too. No foollin'.


----------



## bobperry

I went to bed shortly after posting that post on leaks on boats.

I had a dream. I dreamed there was one "perfect boat" in the world and one "almost perfect boat". The perfect boat was really and truly perfect in every way. The problem was that if you bought the boat you died shortly after taking posession. You'd be OK with the almost perfect boat.

I don't much care for dreaming about my work. I do that better with my eyes open.


----------



## outbound

Bob- I'm blessed. Have a nearly perfect boat and a perfect wife. Hope all SNer's have or find the same blessings. Much to be thankful for beyond the turkey and fixings.
Sleep tight


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Thanks Brent. I'm going to pass that info along to my buddy with the alu fish boat.
> 
> I have something for you for Christmas. I know you will love it. It will save you many gallons of fresh water while you are cruising. I have used it for about ten years. If you PM me your mailing address I can send it to you. You will be amazed.


Not all urethane foams are created equal. Spay foam is the most watertight. You can submerge it for days without absorbing a lot of water. Eventually, if it is constantly submerged it will absorb it , like in a bilge full of water. Pour in place foam is a lot less water tight. Canned spray foam is the least watertight, and can absorb water like a sponge, altho a friend told me some brands are far better than others.
Epoxy over primer is probably an over kill, but you do need some primer which will get a good bite on aluminium before spray foaming. I have wiped spray foam overspray off aluminium with my hand. It practically fell off.

If he has large windows which shed condensation, sealing the foam below the windows with epoxy may be a good idea.

Brent Swain
C/O 3798 Laurel Dr
Royston BC 
Canada 
V0R2V0

Mailing address
Actual location. Out cruising. Probably Quadra and Cortes Islands.

Thanks


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Out:
> No, not to the extent that myopic Brent would have you believe. There are boats with the odd leak. My Valiant 40 had a leak in the foredeck hatch, right over the V berth. I kept my dink stowed over the hatch. That cured it. Chainplates can leak a bit if not sealed properly. I've never had a chainplate leak and I've only ever owned grp boats. My Esprit didn't leak. The mighty PERRYWINKLE did not leak as long as I dogged the foredeck hatch down correctly. But this had zero to do with grp construction. It was just an odd Scandinavian alu hatch.
> 
> I have found that most leaks are due to improper bedding. Remove the piece of hardware portlight, etc, re-bed it and there you go, good as gold. Spike removed the handrails on the house top so he could varnish them. When he reinstalled them he did not bed one leg down well. It leaked. Not much but a bit. He took the rail off and re-bed it and it was fixed. It was an easy to locate leak.
> 
> I have known some poorly built boats to have hull to deck joint leaks and these can be a real problem. When get a leak like this it doesn't drop down where it comes in usually. You may have a leak up in the forward quarter of your rail but the water will run aft to the low point of the sheer before dripping. This can make finding the leak problematic. But this is a poorly built boat. Think of the problems you could have with a poorly built steel boat and we have all seen those.
> 
> Brent gets desperate (oh really?) and gropes for anything he can grasp to attack any boat that is not welded steel. We might as well get used to it. He has very little experience with good grp boats. I would imagine he has never spent any time on a quality grp boat. He will say he has but we know he fibs. His converts come from cheap, crummy grp boats I suspect. They just don't know any better. Brent gives them a cheap boat that doesn't leak and has a companionway door that looks like it came off a Fridgidaire.


A friends Crown 28 didn't leak last year but sure does this year. fortunately he has ben able to move aboard a BS 36. Another friends Hughs 31 leaks a lot. Removing the entire toe rail to find the leak then rebedding it, is no small job.
Another friend spends $280 a month on oil to keep his Ericson 37 warm. Sure you can make a GRP boat watertight, and comfortable ,but don't assume it will be when you buy it.
One should read about Hal Roth's experience with a decorative wooden toe rail ( attached by dozens of holes thru the decks)while crossing the North Pacific, before getting too impressed by such an arrangement. The difference between what he did to rectify the problem, and those who advocate such style over substance, is cruising experience.

Several years ago the single handed transpac was won by a guy from Seattle, who lived aboard his boat. Guys from sunny California were soaked by deck leaks the whole way across. The guy from Seattle was warm and dry the whole way. The reason was, that by living aboard in rainy Seattle, he had found and dealt with all the deck leaks over the years , as they appeared. The guys from California had not seen any such rain, and not having lived aboard, the automatic bilge pumps had kept them naïve.
A GRP boat can be made watertight, and insulated, but don't expect that from a boat which has not been lived aboard for a while in rainy climes. Bolt down hardware can be watertight, for a while, but it has no comparison to welded down hardware or welded metal bulwarks, which will never leak . The best, most reliable bedding compound ever invented is welding. It never needs rebedding.
Hull deck joint leaks are from underestimating the loads on such joints; they take almost the entire twisting loads on a boat.
Putting a dinghy over leak is not a solution at sea, in rough weather. Perhaps that is what the guys from California did, to avoid having to deal with it in port, only to find out later it doesn't work so well underway . 
My one piece aluminium hatch has become standard on round the world racers, which don't use teak sliding hatches and drop boards, for good reason . It is water proof and airtight in all conditions( Good seamanship)
I've read of people inside, in front of drop boards and sliding hatches in a gale ,taking a shower of spray thru them every time wave hit, like someone turning the shower on and off every few seconds. Accepting that, for decorative reasons, is simply bad seamanship ( and not all that bright either.)


----------



## bobperry

Got it Brent.

Did you mean "Spray foam". You wrote "spay foam". I take it that was a typo.

My buddy has foam in his fish tanks I presume so he may not have the luxury of keeping the water out of the foam. I'll chat with him. He says removing the old foam is the job from hell.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Picking up wet firewood from the beach is more fun than you might think.
> Or not. Wet firewood?
> 
> I live on the beach. The beach is covered in wood. It gets wet. Really wet.
> BS would need a shed built on the back of his boat for his firewood. This I know. This is where I live. Picking up wood off the beach for the eveneing's fire is a myth. Pure BS.
> 
> I have two nice Jotul Norwegian fireplaces, one in the living room and one in the master bedroom. I do not burn beach wood in them. Too much salt. Too much corrosion. I have one fireplace going now. It is nice.
> 
> .


Chain saw a foot off the end of a log, and inside it is as dry as summertime. A friend in Scotty bay used a heater made from an old propane bottle , burning nothing but beach wood. It lasted 13 years . The mild steel baffle in my last stove lasted decades, burning nothing but beach wood. The guys selling the firewood perpetrate the myth that beach wood will corrode out your stove, then sell you a cord of their beach wood. Don't believe them.
I build my stoves out of scrap stainless type 316 , which shows no sign of corrosion in decades. My last stove had a bit of 400 series stainless, which eventually corroded out, after 29 years! 
Piling wood behind the stove to dry it out, before putting it in the stove, works well. Wet wood in an already roaring stove burns ok, but creosotes up the pipe sooner.
Fir bark burns well, and the water drains out of it over a few days. Store it in a sail bag. Many of my friends have been using nothing but beach wood, for decades in many cases.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Seems you are just an all round hater Brent.
> 
> Me? I'd like to sit down and chat with anyone who loves boats. I'm a boat lover. Workboats, yachts, powerboats, dinghies, I just like boats. I try hard not to be judgemental towards the owners. I work at taking each person for who they are and not what they sail. You seem to have distilled judgmentalism down to a way of life. You make sweeping generalizations on the character of peolpe by the boats they sail, by what material their boats are made of, by who built the boat, by who designed their boat. Amazing. Meaning, if it's not a BS boat (I love it) then the boat is no good and the owners are no good. They are fools. You have said it time and again. The myopic world of BS. (I know you are etymogically challenged Brent but you can Google it.)
> 
> That is what I call ignorance. You do it superbly, over and over.
> I have nothing against your boats.
> I think little of you.


Me too. Love boat people, especially practical boat people , who build their own gear, enjoy doing it, and who don't swallow hook line and sinker whatever the industry is selling, but openly question it, before buying. I especially like those who ask the question "Can I build it better?" I have always advocated learning everything your current boat has to teach you, whatever it is, before changing boats.
I remember in my youth, seeing a boat going downwind in a fine fair sailing breeze, motoring, with the sails down and the sail covers on. It used to bother me ,someone wasting such a fine breeze.
Now I see him doing exactly what he should be doing, using HIS boat exactly the way He feels like using her, at the moment , regardless of how anyone else thinks he should be using her .
I strongly believe in what I make, and reject any suggestion that anyone should seek out a builder or designer who doesn't particularly believe in what he is doing.


----------



## bobperry

We have burned beach wood for years up here and we have heard the corrosion stories but we have never seen them. But when I built the new house with the fancy stoves I thought I should be conservative and it's sooooo much easier to buy a couple chords of wood. But I have neighbors who burn nothing but beach wood.


----------



## bobperry

My problem with the fireplaces now is that I have hot water heated foors. These retain the heat for about three days. So if I keep my thermostats downstairs on 68 degs starting a fire in the fireplace bumps the temp up to at least 7o degrees in the house and that's too much for me. Fires now are strictly for ambience. Still I make one everynight anyway. I like ambience. Between heating the floors and heating the swimming pool I am on a first name basis with my propane delivery guy.


----------



## Jeff_H

Bob, 
With radiant heat in your floors, you need some roof mounted, solar glycol-water heaters that are piped into perhaps a 1500- 2500 gal storage tank with a heat exchanger to preheat the water going into your floors A water coil in your wood stove could provide further assistance. Even if that combo did not fully heat the water, it would reduce run times on your boiler by preheating the water going in. You would hardly see your propane guy after that.

I used to burn beach wood when I was camping. The trick is basically what Brent suggested, banking the damp logs so that they absorb heat from the fire and dry out before you burn the stuff. Splitting the logs help some and you need to rotate the logs periodically so all sides dry. By experimentation it seemed that it took roughly twice as many logs drying as you had in the fire to make sure that there were enough to burn continuously. The drying logs absorbed heat and would stay warm for a while after the fire burned down, and were useful to prewarm your sleeping bag before climbing in. 

BTW, how is your aluminum origami Peapod coming?

Jeff


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Ah, yes, more BS/inaccuracies/whoppers.
> 
> Here, let me help you out:
> 
> http://des.nh.gov/organization/commissioner/pip/factsheets/ard/documents/ard-36.pdf
> 
> Or this...
> 
> Smoke from wood fireplaces, stoves raises new health concerns ? Environmental Health News
> 
> I mean, believe what you want, Brent - but you can't just keep making stuff up and presenting it as fact. That's what we call BS, or environmental denial, or as Buddy tells the fake Santa...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for where my electricity comes from...I pay about $4/month for what we use. And, building on what you try to claim about how the steel in your boat(s) is only a _minuscule part_ of the incredibly environmentally-destructive process of mining, processing, treating, shipping, welding, etc. steel (you know, messing with stuff that would otherwise remain buried) - whatever way that electricity gets to my little 1500 watt heater will ALWAYS be cleaner than ANY of your methods. I care about the environment. I just wish you would too.
> 
> I'm semi-retired. I have a very nice balance of work and fun. I love my work and have fun doing it, but I'm doing less of it because I love having more and more fun elsewhere. So, I have absolutely no complaints.
> 
> Have fun with your deadly firewood.
> 
> Well, two things...first, I have a generator so I can plug in anything I want. I think you're mixing up my very well-equipped boat with your obviously very ill-equipped boat.
> 
> But at the end of the day, I have absolutely no desire to be cold and miserable in any circumstance. That's why I live in and sail to warm places.
> 
> But, hey, if cold misery makes you as happy as you seem to be, stay right where you are.


When I sail past Vancouver I see a huge cloud of brown vehicle smoke. We laugh at the Romans for using lead salts to sweeten their wine and storing it in lead containers, or running their water thru lead pipes. In the future I can see people laughing at us for believing we can live in a huge cloud of vehicle emissions with out any harmful effects on our health. They are just beginning to question building schools alongside 4 lane highways. Slow learners?
When I went to Vancouver, I started to cough in the first ten miles and didn't stop coughing until I had been out of town for a week ( in my boat with my wood stove going)
I used to have an oil heater, which burned super clean, with a blue flame. It made me cough. I got rid of it and switched to wood, and the cough went away in a week .
$4a month for your electric heat? Does that include your moorage? Can you buy your electric heat without paying moorage, probably more than my total cost of living, and cruising anywhere I want to, any time? Does having to pay moorage to get your electric heat, mean being given a long list of rules as to what you may or may not do in your own floating home? Does that involve being surrounded by that floating soap opera called "Marina?" 
Not having all those expenses enabled me to semi retire in my mid 20's. How long did it take you? At what age? Do you really believe I wish I had spent all that time working instead of cruising?
Do you really think I will lay on my death bed wishing I had worked more and played less?
We have been living around wood fires for tens of thousands of years. Our bodies have adapted. How long have we lived around oil stoves? How does driving thru smog, the exhausts of many cars in front of us, to earn the money to buy oil, affect our health? Sure affects mine , in a bad way. Having never owned a car I don't put out much of that poison. General motors would call me downright "EVIL. You would believe anything they tell you. I would take that as a compliment . As one USanian politico said "What is right for general motors is right for America."
Once my boat has been built ,my environmental foot print drops to a tiny fraction of what it would be, living the Consumer , squanderism lifestyle , a lifestyle which would take three more planets to sustain indefinitely . Ditto the people I build for, who live aboard, and get rid of their cars. The reduction in our lifetime environmental foot print is far greater than any brief damage from building our boats ( which enable us to live such a low impact lifestyle)
If you live on the East Coast of the US, your power is coming from coal fired generators, coal obtained by blowing the tops off mountains. How self delusional would one have to be to believe that the electric cord it comes out of is the original ,only source of such power.
Reminds me about the story of a kid in silicone valley who walked into work and announced "Wow I just found out where milk comes from. It comes from cows!"
Sounds like Steve's( Smacks ) way of urban thinking. So tell us where meat comes from Steve.
Cows? No way !It comes from Styrofoam trays in super markets? Cows have nothing to do with it?
How about eggs? The also come from Styrofoam containers in super markets? Chickens have nothing to do with it?
Ya, sure Steve!

Met my great grandfather when he was 100. Lived to 103. His dad lived to 104 .Never saw a doctor in that time. They used exclusively wood heat, in minus 40 degree winters. Sure didn't kill them off early.
I have cruised all the South Pacific Islands which interested me. I could be there right now, if I wanted to, but have no interest. Friends cruising the West Indies, said they were harassed daily by the US coast guard. Some have been given orders while the US Cost Guard held a cocked and loaded machine gun at the head of their 8 year old daughter. That doesn't happen here. In over40 years of cruising the BC coast I have been asked only once to show a Mountie my lifejacket. That was the only time I have been stopped by big brother here. When a Mountie suggested a wife beater try a ballistic solution on his victim, I was able to get him fired, and to kiss his pension goodby. Good luck with that issue in a foreign country. 
A friend with one of my 36 footers was in Houston when hurricane Ike hit. Luckily his boat was in a marina which survived, but his pick up truck and other possessions were under 6 feet of water. Part of the cost of living in tropical places. So much easier to throw another log on the fire, than deal with that.
Here, I don't need a visa, don't need a passport, they cant kick me out, I don't have a deadline as to when I must leave by ,can come and go anytime, with no ones permission, can work anytime the urge hits me, can hunt, have no problem finding what I need to do projects , have full health care for free, no lack of medical services, the government pays me for existing, I get my mail reliably, the list goes on.
I can sail a few miles and be in wilderness, far from anyone, not anchored in some one's back yard, such as is the case in most tropical places. 
No coral to eat my anchors or anchor rodes, or fill tiny anchorages into uselessness, no malaria, no denghe fever, no amoebas. Paradise is a place called home.
In the South Pacific ,it seems Californians, and east coast Usanians, are horrified at the thought of going home. People from BC and Washington are a bit keen to get home, Alaskans cant wait to get home. That says a lot about home!
I always come home, homesick. The West Indies is the last place on the planet I want to be. It's all yours, Steve, yours and millions of others .


----------



## bobperry

Jeff:
Do you think we get enough sun up here to really help with roof mounted heaters?

But we do heat the pool in the summer also. We like it at 85 degs. Cozy and I don't want my darling granddauighter to get chilled when she swims. She loves the pool.

We need to discuss this.

( which enable us to live such a low impact lifestyle)"
Yeah, but look how cranky and judgemental it makes you. Maybe the impact is psychological.

I'll get your Christmas gift in UPS this week. I'll include instructions.

Got to go now and make lamb stew on my big propane Wolfe range.
I expect a huge gift from my propane supplier at Christmas. Right.


----------



## outbound

Brent-testicular cancer was the leading cause of cancer death in London chimney sweeps. Coal and wood release carcinogens upon combustion. Wood fired energy plants are under increasing regulatory restrictions in my area.


----------



## outbound

Bob- Live in New England but still get my electricity from panels on the roof and hot water from two surprisingly small panels. The water in those panels gives us domestic hot water and pre heats the forced hot water heating system. Get a check from the power companies every 3m. Did it when there were all sorts of tax incentives but even now as prices have come down and efficiency up the pay back is a very short time.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> When I sail past Vancouver I see a huge cloud of brown vehicle smoke. We laugh at the Romans for using lead salts to sweeten their wine and storing it in lead containers, or running their water thru lead pipes. In the future I can see people laughing at us for believing we can live in a huge cloud of vehicle emissions with out any harmful effects on our health. They are just beginning to question building schools alongside 4 lane highways. Slow learners?
> When I went to Vancouver, I started to cough in the first ten miles and didn't stop coughing until I had been out of town for a week ( in my boat with my wood stove going)
> I used to have an oil heater, which burned super clean, with a blue flame. It made me cough. I got rid of it and switched to wood, and the cough went away in a week .
> We have been living around wood fires for tens of thousands of years. Our bodies have adapted. How long have we lived around oil stoves? How does driving thru smog, the exhausts of many cars in front of us, to earn the money to buy oil, affect our health? Sure affects mine , in a bad way. Having never owned a car I don't put out much of that poison. General motors would call me downright "EVIL. You would believe anything they tell you. I would take that as a compliment . As one USanian politico said "What is right for general motors is right for America."
> Once my boat has been built ,my environmental foot print drops to a tiny fraction of what it would be, living the Consumer , squanderism lifestyle , a lifestyle which would take three more planets to sustain indefinitely . Ditto the people I build for, who live aboard, and get rid of their cars. The reduction in our lifetime environmental foot print is far greater than any damage from building our boats ( which enable us to live such a low impact lifestyle)
> If you live on the East Coast of the US, your power is coming from coal fired generators, coal obtained by blowing the tops off mountains. How self delusional would one have to be to believe that the electric cord it come out of is the original ,only source of such power.
> Reminds me about the story of a kid in silicone valley who walked into work and announced "Wow I just found out where milk comes from. It comes from cows!"
> 
> Met my great grandfather when he was 100. Lived to 103. His dad lived to 104 .Never saw a doctor in that time. They used exclusively wood heat, in minus 40 degree winters. Sure didn't kill them off early.
> I have cruised all the South Pacific Island which interested me. I could be there right now, if I wanted to, but have no interest. Friends cruising the West Indies said they were harassed daily by the US coast guard. Some have been given orders while the US Cost Guard held a cocked and loaded machine gun at the head of their 8 year old daughter. That doesn't happen here. In over40 years of cruising the BC coast I have ben asked only once to show a Mountie my lifejacket. That was the only time I have ben stopped by big brother. When a Mountie suggested a wife beater try a ballistic solution on his victim, I was able to get him fired and to kiss his pension goodby. Good luck with that issue in a foreign country.
> A friend with one of my 36 footers was in Houston when hurricane Ike hit. Luckily his boat was in a marina which survived, but his pick up truck and other possessions were under 6 feet of water. Part of the cost of living in tropical places. So much easier to throw another log on the fire than deal with that.
> Here I don't need a visa, don't need a passport, they cant kick me out, I don't have a deadline as to when I must leave by , can work anytime the urge hits me, can hunt, have no problem finding what I need to do projects , have full health care for free, no lack of medical services, the government pays me for existing, get my mail reliably, the list goes on.
> I can sail a few miles and be in wilderness, far from anyone, not anchored in some ones back yard, such as is the case in most tropical places.
> No coral to eat my anchors or anchor rodes, or fill tiny anchorages into uselessness, no malaria, no denghe fever, no amoebas. Paradise is a place called home.
> In the South Pacific ,it seems Californians, and east coast Usanians, are horrified at the thought of going home. People from BC and Washington are a bit keen to get home, Alaskans cant wait to get home. That says a lot about home!
> I always come home, homesick. The West Indies is the last place on the planet I want to be. It's all yours, Steve, yours and millions of others .


Despite the long-winded diatribe - the problem is, when it comes to environmentalism, you just don't practice what you preach.



Brent Swain said:


> Once my boat has been built ,my environmental foot print drops to a tiny fraction of what it would be, living the Consumer , squanderism lifestyle , a lifestyle which would take three more planets to sustain indefinitely . Ditto the people I build for, who live aboard, and get rid of their cars. The reduction in our lifetime environmental foot print is far greater than any damage from building our boats ( which enable us to live such a low impact lifestyle)


See, it's okay for _you_ to destroy the planet with _your steel_ - because it "eventually" makes your "footprint smaller". But you're still being very destructive.

If you want to take the holy-roller environmentalist, anti-consumerism stance - you need to be all about 100% recycling. That is, recycle the many, many wood or plastic boats that are already out there. Then use all your techniques and innovative gear ideas to keep that boat completely off the grid - always. If you did this, I'd give you huge kudos. That would be admirable - remarkable even.

But you don't do this. You're just another advocate of unnecessary consumerism: "What's right for Baosteel, Angang Steel Company, Wuhan Iron and Steel, Anshan, Tangshan, Shagang Group and Hebei Iron and Steel - is right for the environment."

By encouraging people to buy your DVDs, your plans, tons of steel, tons of lead, gallons of epoxy, a combustion engine, a polluting woodstove, a barnful of tools, blow off manganese fumes for years, etc. - you're simply promoting very destructive consumerism.

You really shouldn't do that...regardless of what the other "bad guys" are doing.


----------



## Tim Newman

Brent Swain said:


> The best, most reliable bedding compound ever invented is welding. It never needs rebedding.


That's a good argument for living in a shipping container instead of a house.


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> Bob,
> With radiant heat in your floors, you need some roof mounted, solar glycol-water heaters that are piped into perhaps a 1500- 2500 gal storage tank with a heat exchanger to preheat the water going into your floors A water coil in your wood stove could provide further assistance. Even if that combo did not fully heat the water, it would reduce run times on your boiler by preheating the water going in. You would hardly see your propane guy after that.
> 
> I used to burn beach wood when I was camping. The trick is basically what Brent suggested, banking the damp logs so that they absorb heat from the fire and dry out before you burn the stuff. Splitting the logs help some and you need to rotate the logs periodically so all sides dry. By experimentation it seemed that it took roughly twice as many logs drying as you had in the fire to make sure that there were enough to burn continuously. The drying logs absorbed heat and would stay warm for a while after the fire burned down, and were useful to prewarm your sleeping bag before climbing in.
> 
> BTW, how is your aluminum origami Peapod coming?
> 
> Jeff


My brother and his neighbours were discussing solar heaters ,at horrendous prices, for their swimming pool in their condos. I asked "Why so pricy?" He said "It's all the fittings on the ends, where the pipes go back and forth."
I said "You don't need any fittings. Black poly pipe comes in a roll. Just lay it out in a spiral on top of the building, till it fills the roof." They did that, for a tiny fraction the cost of a commercially made solar heater, and for many years the propane heater never came on. One hot weekend, they forgot to turn the pump off, and when they got back the pool was too hot to put your toe in. Put a piece of clear plastic over it for greenhouse effect and it gets even more efficient. If you have a south facing roof , you can pipe it from there into a heat storage tank, and you may have plenty of heat for overnight.
At any rate, it doesn't cost much to try it. Black poly pipe is cheap.


----------



## smackdaddy

Tim Newman said:


> That's a good argument for living in a shipping container instead of a house.


Actually, I think you're onto something Tim! THIS IS BRILLIANT!

BRENT, if you could convert a shipping container into a steel sailboat - you'd be a hero - for generations. It's everything you could possibly want in a boat...it's steel, you can weld all kinds of crazy crap to it, you don't have to worry about hitting shipping containers (because it IS a shipping container) - AND IT'S 100% RECYCLING!!!

Get on those drawings dude. Let's see you finally make the world a better place with your origami.

If Bob can do it for a canoe, surely you can do it for a shipping container.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Got it Brent.
> 
> Did you mean "Spray foam". You wrote "spay foam". I take it that was a typo.
> 
> My buddy has foam in his fish tanks I presume so he may not have the luxury of keeping the water out of the foam. I'll chat with him. He says removing the old foam is the job from hell.


If the foam goes into the bilge , removing it from the bilge , or under the fish tanks, to let it drain, will let the rest dry out.

Yes, spay foam was typo. That describes spermicidal gell.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Despite the long-winded diatribe - the problem is, when it comes to environmentalism, you just don't practice what you preach.
> 
> See, it's okay for _you_ to destroy the planet with _your steel_ - because it "eventually" makes your "footprint smaller". But you're still being very destructive.
> 
> If you want to take the holy-roller environmentalist, anti-consumerism stance - you need to be all about 100% recycling. That is, recycle the many, many wood or plastic boats that are already out there. Then use all your techniques and innovative gear ideas to keep that boat completely off the grid - always. If you did this, I'd give you huge kudos. That would be admirable - remarkable even.
> 
> But you don't do this. You're just another advocate of unnecessary consumerism: "What's right for Baosteel, Angang Steel Company, Wuhan Iron and Steel, Anshan, Tangshan, Shagang Group and Hebei Iron and Steel - is right for the environment."
> 
> By encouraging people to buy your DVDs, your plans, tons of steel, tons of lead, gallons of epoxy, a combustion engine, a polluting woodstove, a barnful of tools, blow off manganese fumes for years, etc. - you're simply promoting very destructive consumerism.
> 
> You really shouldn't do that...regardless of what the other "bad guys" are doing.


On Radio KGO San Francisco they had a neurologist, who described this 'Either -or, all or nothing, " thinking as a brain problem. Instead of a rheostat between the two, they had a toggle switch, which made them mentally incapable of comprehending the concept of anything lying between two extremes. They could only see any two points as being either-or, which describes radicals and extremists. I later saw this same factor described in a science magazine, as a brain injury, showing the part of the brain, which acts as a rheostat between two ideas, acting more like the toggle switch of an injured brain.
Sounds a lot like your suggestion ( and problem), that if we cant eliminate environmental problems completely, we should do nothing to try to reduce them.

Oh ya Steve! Try take it a bit easier on the scotch . It shows in your posts!


----------



## bobperry

Got it Brent. I may have my buddy read this thread because I am not going to be able to remember all of this but thanks.

I appreciate the plumbing tips. This is another area where I am lacking. I may get back to you on that.

Question:
You said you were going to do your laundry. Do you launder a hair shirt on "normal cycle" or "delicate"?

Smackers:
That last post was brilliant!

" you don't have to worry about hitting shipping containers (because it IS a shipping container) - AND IT'S 100% RECYCLING!!!"

I bet you a US dollar that even No Fun Brent laughed on that one.

Lamb stew in pot and astewing.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Actually, I think you're onto something Tim! THIS IS BRILLIANT!
> 
> BRENT, if you could convert a shipping container into a steel sailboat - you'd be a hero - for generations. It's everything you could possibly want in a boat...it's steel, you can weld all kinds of crazy crap to it, you don't have to worry about hitting shipping containers (because it IS a shipping container) - AND IT'S 100% RECYCLING!!!
> 
> Get on those drawings dude. Let's see you finally make the world a better place with your origami.
> 
> If Bob can do it for a canoe, surely you can do it for a shipping container.


I sure wouldn't want to hit that in a plastic boat on a dark moonless night.
Only a steel boat would survive it.
Again, thanks for making my point !


----------



## bobperry

I thought that was one of your boats Brent.

This is my idea of recycling.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> On Radio KGO San Francisco they had a neurologist, who described this 'Either -or, all or nothing, " thinking as a brain problem. Instead of a rheostat between the two, they had a toggle switch, which made them mentally incapable of comprehending the concept of anything lying between two extremes. They could only see any two points as being either-or, which describes radicals and extremists. I later saw this same factor described in a science magazine, as a brain injury, showing the part of the brain, which acts as a rheostat between two ideas, acting more like the toggle switch of an injured brain.





Brent Swain said:


> I sure wouldn't want to hit that in a plastic boat on a dark moonless night.
> Only a steel boat would survive it.
> Again, thanks for making my point !


You can't _pay_ for stuff this good*. Keep it coming brotha!

So are you going to tackle that orgami approach to the shipping container boat or not?

(*Brent, you _can_ see the incredible irony in the above two quotes of yours, right?)


----------



## bobperry

I ask for a simple laundry tip and what do I get?


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> On Radio KGO San Francisco they had a neurologist, who described this 'Either -or, all or nothing, " thinking as a brain problem. Instead of a rheostat between the two, they had a toggle switch, which made them mentally incapable of comprehending the concept of anything lying between two extremes. They could only see any two points as being either-or, which describes radicals and extremists. I later saw this same factor described in a science magazine, as a brain injury, showing the part of the brain, which acts as a rheostat between two ideas, acting more like the toggle switch of an injured brain.
> Sounds a lot like your suggestion ( and problem), that if we cant eliminate environmental problems completely, we should do nothing to try to reduce them.
> 
> Oh ya Steve! Try take it a bit easier on the scotch . It shows in your posts!


This post sets a new standard for irony.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
When Brent can't come up with a good, honest reply he resorts to the "you must be drinking too much" ploy. More projecting as far as I can tell. 

Or, when he can't defend his boats on an objective level he tries the "My carbon footprint is smaller than yours". Not sure carbon footprints even have a place on this thread. Of course it is Brent. I wear a size 15 shoe. My footprint will always be bigger than yours. That's just reality.


----------



## casioqv

bobperry said:


> I don't even let my wife do it. I'm a laundry Nazi.


Same here... I'm as opinionated about fabrics as some people are about hull materials and if someone's gonna ruin my wool it better be me.


----------



## bobperry

Casio:
I've got your back. When we first moved to the beach shack I started to notice bleach "stains" on my flannel shirts. ****ski! In time I realized they were all on the right sleeve. Then I noticed that I had bought "Soft Scrub with Bleach" and I was using it in the sinks and on the fireplace glass. Doh! The stains were on my scrubbing arm.

I keep a jug of real bleach around. I dump it in the heads from time to time. I may wash some of our white towels in it. But it remains scary stuff.

I now use that Oxyclean stuff. It seems to work really well. I want a white handkerchief to be a white handerchief.

I always carry a white handerkerchief. I always asked my boys for white Irish linen handkerchieves for Christmas. Until I found out what they cost!

Holy cow Dad, these hankies were $40!


----------



## smackdaddy

You know, this could totally work!










"The BS Container"! Just a couple of cuts here and there - then fold her right up!

Brent, you really need to bring your years of steel, origami, and cruising experience to this project. It's the perfect legacy!


----------



## blt2ski

I had a container for a bit, could a used it as a demo.......dang, now why did I sell it again?!?!?!?!?!?

Marty


----------



## casioqv

bobperry said:


> I keep a jug of real bleach around. I dump it in the heads from time to time. I may wash some of our white towels in it. But it remains scary stuff.


If you're willing to wear all white or all black for everything you can avoid these color issues. I'm a weirdo and wear all black all the time, but I can change my oil in my nicest shirt and it still looks good.



smackdaddy said:


> "The BS Container"! Just a couple of cuts here and there - then fold her right up!


Haha, that could almost work if you could find some way to fill the corrugations below the waterline.. Maybe fill them with molten lead and that can be the ballast. Or just call them new vertical faux lapstrake technology which makes the hull tougher and the cockpit drier. Also add some chine runners so it can point to windward tacking through 179 degrees while maintaining shoal draft and beachability.


----------



## casioqv




----------



## aeventyr60

Maybe Jeff could do a new thread, designing the optimal shipping container sailboat. PCP could add some hi tech features for the Euro crowd. Bob could add the canoe stern and Smack could narrate over a few Scotch's. The rest of us will have a good laugh. I wonder what the righting moment would be?


----------



## jak3b

At least 213 degrees.........


----------



## desert rat

Smack 2326
Now to show my colors. If only it had two masts. I still have schooneritus.


----------



## jak3b

desert rat said:


> Smack 2326
> Now to show my colors. If only it had two masts. I still have schooneritus.


Get some anti-biotics;-)


----------



## smackdaddy

aeventyr60 said:


> I wonder what the righting moment would be?


220, 221, whatever it takes.


----------



## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> Your comments were that shape has no effect on stiffness, which is the equivalent of stating that a square propane tank is the same strength as a round one. You pressed a spline in the middle, then claimed that a longitudinal would also bulge out near the ends while welded, and thus contained inside a steel hull, the same way your spline out in the open did. Wynand definitely declared himself a racist and proud of it. He also joined the attack on framlessness ,and only later admitted he had built a framless 38 ft Dix design, posted on the origami boats site. You also supported the notion that the steel under my mast support pipes, 13 inches of 3/16th plate, would break before the 3 -5/16th windward shrouds would, and that could happen in the first 4 hours ,. something which hasn't happened in over 40 years.
> I stand by all my comments on that site.


Brent, you are brazen
I thought you'd be hanging your head in shame. "Standing in" might be a better term than "standing by" your comments. Deception spin and downright lies are the hallmarks your posts all over the internet. Your prior post that I commented on initially is very deceitful as is this one.

Lets take some examples in this post you made; that supposed comment on shape and stiffness and the other on a failure time of 4 hrs. Link my comment on either of these (since you claim I made them). 
I'm contending that you simply made them up, as usual along with just about everything you post. Prove me wrong rather than the usual diatribe you resort to. Should be easy since you say I posted those comments.

Why try and paint the very professional steel boatbuilder and designer Wynand Nortje racist. Is it because of his comments on your version of origami on his site ? He also never 'attacked' frameless boats, just your claims about your version of frameless boats.


----------



## chall03

aeventyr60 said:


> Maybe Jeff could do a new thread, designing the optimal shipping container sailboat. PCP could add some hi tech features for the Euro crowd. Bob could add the canoe stern and Smack could narrate over a few Scotch's. The rest of us will have a good laugh. I wonder what the righting moment would be?


We would of course add ISAF regulation lifelines so we can enter it in a rally or two


----------



## bobperry

I'm sitting here at 4:25 am trying hard to figure out what "racism" has to do with yacht design and building. Why bring that claim up? Has reasonable and cogent argument failed?

I'd better make some coffee.


----------



## djodenda

blt2ski said:


> I had a container for a bit, could a used it as a demo.......dang, now why did I sell it again?!?!?!?!?!?
> 
> Marty


The yacht club that Marty and I belong to exists in a shipping container.


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
Quit your bragging.


----------



## smackdaddy

MikeJohns said:


> Lets take some examples in this post you made; that supposed comment on shape and stiffness and the other on a failure time of 4 hrs. Link my comment on either of these (since you claim I made them).
> I'm contending that you simply made them up, as usual along with just about everything you post. Prove me wrong rather than the usual diatribe you resort to. Should be easy since you say I posted those comments.


Aah, don't worry about it MJ - as you say, he does this all the time. If it's like every other time he's pulled this, there won't be a link because you never said what he said you said.

No one out there really believes Brent Swain anyway. But when you get past that, he is really fun to have around.


----------



## SloopJonB

blt2ski said:


> I had a container for a bit, could a used it as a demo.......dang, now why did I sell it again?!?!?!?!?!?
> 
> Marty


I've seen containers turned into ultra cheap housing and office accommodations. Imaginative people can come up with some really neat ways of utilizing them. I think Bob's concept of a minimum house (posted somewhere a while back) could be adapted to containers.

As a boat? Not so much. Linear chines are one thing but vertical corrugations?

Maybe if you double skinned it so the corrugations acted like ribs.


----------



## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> I've seen containers turned into ultra cheap housing and office accommodations. Imaginative people can come up with some really neat ways of utilizing them. I think Bob's concept of a minimum house (posted somewhere a while back) could be adapted to containers.
> 
> As a boat? Not so much. Linear chines are one thing but vertical corrugations?
> 
> Maybe if you double skinned it so the corrugations acted like ribs.


You Anti-Origami Consumerist.

Obviously all you have to do is make horizontal cuts in the corrugated steel every 10.33" to create the bends - then you just weld the corrugated strips left over from the initial cut into those spaces on the interior and squirt some filler into the exterior void. Then you epoxy the hell out of it. Done.

The corrugation is critical as it will act to reduce the friction in the water flowing past the hull while under sail or motor (kind of like shark skin) - allowing far more speed than a typical shipping container bobbing around out there. You'll be flying.

Brent will show you. Just wait.


----------



## bobperry

I have no doubt that Brent could whip a container into something that looked kinda, sorta like a boat in no time. Think of it as BS lapstrake.


----------



## smackdaddy

The "Swainstrake 40"?

I like it, but I'm still partial to the "BS Container".


----------



## jak3b

The BS Lapstrake fukishima debri killing world cruiser for Xenophobic sailors who really dont want to go anywhere.


----------



## djodenda

Fish and Chips place in Faster's marina...

Red Fish Blue Fish | Vancouver Island Resilient and Green Opportunities


----------



## djodenda

Whoops.. wrong one.. This one is by Faster
One Fish Two Fish Restaurant « Properfare Vancouver


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> Brent, you are brazen
> I thought you'd be hanging your head in shame. "Standing in" might be a better term than "standing by" your comments. Deception spin and downright lies are the hallmarks your posts all over the internet. Your prior post that I commented on initially is very deceitful as is this one.
> 
> Lets take some examples in this post you made; that supposed comment on shape and stiffness and the other on a failure time of 4 hrs. Link my comment on either of these (since you claim I made them).
> I'm contending that you simply made them up, as usual along with just about everything you post. Prove me wrong rather than the usual diatribe you resort to. Should be easy since you say I posted those comments.
> 
> Why try and paint the very professional steel boatbuilder and designer Wynand Nortje racist. Is it because of his comments on your version of origami on his site ? He also never 'attacked' frameless boats, just your claims about your version of frameless boats.


You mentioned that the mast support pipes- hull plate joint may suffer from metal fatigue where they meet the chine after 1,000 cycles. With the average wave period at sea, that would take about 4 hours .
When Fitter welder pointed out that I have aboriginal background , while I was being attacked on every post I made, for obviously racist reasons, Dutch South African Nortje said he was a racist ,and proud of it.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> You mentioned that the mast support pipes- hull plate joint may suffer from metal fatigue where they meet the chine after 1,000 cycles. With the average wave period at sea, that would take about 4 hours .
> When Fitter welder pointed out that I have aboriginal background , while I was being attacked on every post I made, for obviously racist reasons, Dutch South African Nortje said he was a racist ,and proud of it.


Links or it didn't happen dude. You've done this complete misquoting thing way too many times to be at all credible.


----------



## Brent Swain

Brent Swain said:


> My brother and his neighbours were discussing solar heaters ,at horrendous prices, for their swimming pool in their condos. I asked "Why so pricy?" He said "It's all the fittings on the ends, where the pipes go back and forth."
> I said "You don't need any fittings. Black poly pipe comes in a roll. Just lay it out in a spiral on top of the building, till it fills the roof." They did that, for a tiny fraction the cost of a commercially made solar heater, and for many years the propane heater never came on. One hot weekend, they forgot to turn the pump off, and when they got back the pool was too hot to put your toe in. Put a piece of clear plastic over it for greenhouse effect and it gets even more efficient. If you have a south facing roof , you can pipe it from there into a heat storage tank, and you may have plenty of heat for overnight.
> At any rate, it doesn't cost much to try it. Black poly pipe is cheap.


Putting foam insulation under the pipe would prevent it from losing too much heat before it got to where it is needed, upping the efficiency. Insulating other sections of the pipe would also help.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> I have no doubt that Brent could whip a container into something that looked kinda, sorta like a boat in no time. Think of it as BS lapstrake.


No thanks. That would look too much like a Bob Perry design.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> I'm sitting here at 4:25 am trying hard to figure out what "racism" has to do with yacht design and building. Why bring that claim up? Has reasonable and cogent argument failed?
> 
> I'd better make some coffee.


It's a reflection of the kind of people and the kind of attacks made on me on that site and the kind of people and attacks Mike Johns likes.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> You know, this could totally work!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The BS Container"! Just a couple of cuts here and there - then fold her right up!
> 
> Brent, you really need to bring your years of steel, origami, and cruising experience to this project. It's the perfect legacy!


Seeing any comparison between the two shapes, takes a lot of scotch.

Why would they put all those kinks in if ,as "engineer" Mike Johns implies, shape has little or no effect on stiffness?


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Despite the long-winded diatribe - the problem is, when it comes to environmentalism, you just don't practice what you preach.
> 
> See, it's okay for _you_ to destroy the planet with _your steel_ - because it "eventually" makes your "footprint smaller". But you're still being very destructive.
> 
> If you want to take the holy-roller environmentalist, anti-consumerism stance - you need to be all about 100% recycling. That is, recycle the many, many wood or plastic boats that are already out there. Then use all your techniques and innovative gear ideas to keep that boat completely off the grid - always. If you did this, I'd give you huge kudos. That would be admirable - remarkable even.
> 
> But you don't do this. You're just another advocate of unnecessary consumerism: "What's right for Baosteel, Angang Steel Company, Wuhan Iron and Steel, Anshan, Tangshan, Shagang Group and Hebei Iron and Steel - is right for the environment."
> 
> By encouraging people to buy your DVDs, your plans, tons of steel, tons of lead, gallons of epoxy, a combustion engine, a polluting woodstove, a barnful of tools, blow off manganese fumes for years, etc. - you're simply promoting very destructive consumerism.
> 
> You really shouldn't do that...regardless of what the other "bad guys" are doing.


Your suggestion that a fibreglass boat is built with zero environmental foot print assumes that resin is not a petroleum product. that the metal in the engine is never mined nor smelted, it originates at the factory , by "Magic" as does the material in the DVD's and books he uses.. Resin doesn't come from oil nor the tar sands? Where does it come from? The marine store? Ya sure Steve, the same way meat doesn't come from cows, but from the super market?
And you don't have an environmental foot print? Do you power your car with methane from your posts? Your electricity is "produced" at the outlet by "Magic?"
I have never claimed that my boats don't have an environmental foot print. Just that when one moves aboard, his environmental foot print is drastically reduced from that of people living the "Designated " consumer lifestyle. 
Yes this is off topic , but when Steve spouts his foolish disinformation, it must be challenged . Such crap, unchallenged, is naively accepted as truth , by some.


----------



## Classic30

Brent Swain said:


> Your suggestion that a fibreglass boat is built with zero environmental foot print assumes that resin is not a petroleum product. that the metal in the engine is never mined nor smelted, it originates at the factory , by "Magic" as does the material in the DVD's and books he uses.. Resin doesn't come from oil nor the tar sands? Where does it come from? The marine store? Ya sure Steve, the same way meat doesn't come from cows, but from the super market?
> And you don't have an environmental foot print? Do you power your car with methane from your posts? Your electricity is "produced" at the outlet by "Magic?"
> I have never claimed that my boats don't have an environmental foot print. Just that when one moves aboard, his environmental foot print is drastically reduced from that of people living the "Designated " consumer lifestyle.
> Yes this is off topic , but when Steve spouts his foolish disinformation, it must be challenged . Such crap, unchallenged, is naively accepted as truth , by some.


Heh. FWIW, I agree with you, Brent.

I guess I'll stick with the boat I have - made from the trees once standing on the hill from which the iron ore was mined to make your steel boats.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Your suggestion that a fibreglass boat is built with zero environmental foot print assumes that resin is not a petroleum product. that the metal in the engine is never mined nor smelted, it originates at the factory , by "Magic" as does the material in the DVD's and books he uses.. Resin doesn't come from oil nor the tar sands? Where does it come from? The marine store? Ya sure Steve, the same way meat doesn't come from cows, but from the super market?
> And you don't have an environmental foot print? Do you power your car with methane from your posts? Your electricity is "produced" at the outlet by "Magic?"
> I have never claimed that my boats don't have an environmental foot print. Just that when one moves aboard, his environmental foot print is drastically reduced from that of people living the "Designated " consumer lifestyle.
> Yes this is off topic , but when Steve spouts his foolish disinformation, it must be challenged . Such crap, unchallenged, is naively accepted as truth , by some.


He was suggesting (and I agree) that utilizing an EXISTING glass boat has a smaller footprint than making NEW steel for a new steel boat.

Tough to have a smaller footprint than using already existing stuff.

P.S. where is the quote or link about "shape not affecting strength"? Hard to believe that anyone who ever cracked an egg could be that obtuse.


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
I just read the above posts. To begin with, on your very best day you could not dream of designing a boat as good as one of mine. If you can then show the drawings to prove you are a "designer". I have never seen them. You cannot do this. It is impossible for you to post anything that displays design talent. If you can put "yacht designer " after your name I can put "brain surgeon" after mine. 

And,,, stop this holier than thou, smaller carbon footprint BS. Nobody cares. Of course you have a smaller footprint. You are a little guy. And please give me the washing instructions for the hair shirt. Starch? No starch? I'm sure you get extra starch. You are way to judgmental for my group. We leave room for personal differences.

Why not talk about boats for a change?


BTW: Christmas present went out today.


----------



## blt2ski

David,

make that We both belong to said club thru about dec 31, then I may be telling them bastedo's sianara! Did I speel sianara correct?!?!?! probably not since I see a red wavy line under it! Bunch of idjiots that club is at times......... You should join the group across the street, much more fun! altho they do not have racing.....with 20 sailboat members, should be able to get a race or two off, considering the one is down below 50, they get 30 off! and are losing money to boot! unlike the other.......WHich has lost all its sponsors for the big race........dingle snorts at the party's fault! I should shut up while ahead me thinks.......OUCH.......note to self, quit thinking, hurts brain electron!


Marty


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Your suggestion that a fibreglass boat is built with zero environmental foot print assumes that resin is not a petroleum product. that the metal in the engine is never mined nor smelted, it originates at the factory , by "Magic" as does the material in the DVD's and books he uses.. Resin doesn't come from oil nor the tar sands? Where does it come from? The marine store? Ya sure Steve, the same way meat doesn't come from cows, but from the super market?
> And you don't have an environmental foot print? Do you power your car with methane from your posts? Your electricity is "produced" at the outlet by "Magic?"
> I have never claimed that my boats don't have an environmental foot print. Just that when one moves aboard, his environmental foot print is drastically reduced from that of people living the "Designated " consumer lifestyle.
> Yes this is off topic , but when Steve spouts his foolish disinformation, it must be challenged . Such crap, unchallenged, is naively accepted as truth , by some.


Wow - for a dude who piously shuns scotch, you sure do confuse easily.

What is typed and what you understand from those words are just two completely different things. You have a real hard time following a point. See - this is why no one believes you when claim someone said something or other. You just never get it right. So the links to the actual quotes are very important for you if you ever want people to believe you.

Here - let Sloop's summation help you out. He understood the point perfectly:



SloopJonB said:


> He was suggesting (and I agree) that utilizing an EXISTING glass boat has a smaller footprint than making NEW steel for a new steel boat.
> 
> Tough to have a smaller footprint than using already existing stuff.


When it comes to boats, I advocate (and practice) recycling by buying existing boats. You advocate (and practice) building new ones out of steel - which is blatant consumerism that destroys the environment more than it already is.

So in this case, your planet-killing carbon footprint is WAY bigger. Just sayin'.


----------



## outbound

Think the argument about steel v. Glass footprint is just silly. Grp requires oil for supplies. Steel requires huge electricity for steel manufactor and when I run even my small millermatic the Ah just flow. Both have significant footprints. But how you live with the boat also impacts. My heating system is extremely efficient . I make my own electricity. I'm not running chainsaws or other 2 cycle engines. I don't weld,sandblast,flame zinc, and use power tools to a limited degree. I sail not power if there is any wind to speak of. In short one can be an energy pig in either a grp or steel boat.
New v. Old is also problematic. Any boat has a service life. This can be prolonged by proper maintenance . That maintenance has a "footprint" . I would suggest that "footprint" is smaller for a new or recent boat.
Returning to th O.P. Steel has great benefits
Strength
Possibility for amateur construction.
Abrasion resistance
It also has deficits
Labor in construction and need for meticulous construction to prevent rust/ electrolysis 
Maintenance requirements
Weight
Inability to develope complex curves limiting design.
Poor resale value.
When looking at building my last boat it came down to realization that if one wanted to sail a boat with decent performance, have the comforts of home, have people available to maintain or fix what I could not grp won out. 
Below 50' steel loses out to aluminum on performance. Above 50' I can't afford operating costs.
Think once I get the bucket list issue of sailing tropics/ subtropics out of way I might think of a metal boat. If so with current technologies aluminum beats out steel even for high latitude sailing in every way. You see production runs of aluminum from France and the Netherlands . Other than waterline and puffin I don't know of anyone still producing in steel.


----------



## smackdaddy

Thanksgiving in the old US...

I'm thankful for all the colorful characters of this crazy world of sailing. Life just wouldn't be as fun without ALL you guys.


----------



## casioqv

Bob, before you mentioned how some old trawler conversions look terrible, but others look really good. Do you have any advice on how to make one look good? My dad is converting a 1930s cedar salmon trawler and has it stripped to the bare hull, and hasn't yet decided how to build a cabin.



bobperry said:


> If you can then show the drawings to prove you are a "designer". I have never seen them.


I'm no yacht designer, but why would drawings be necessary to make one a yacht designer?

It sounds to me like Brent's boats were designed by hand constructing and testing models. I don't see how it matters if someone is using a mainstream method, as long as the method used delivers results.


----------



## casioqv

Brent, do you have any tips for a low cost way of re-rustproofing currently painted steel that is starting to rust and flake the paint off?

I have an 'expedition vehicle' that I want to use to trailer my pocketcruiser through Baja salt marshes in order to beach launch and go sailing. It's an 80s diesel Isuzu Trooper (same engine as the Acrohc Australis has) and I want to rip it apart and rustproof it so it can survive a while with salt... but on a limited budget. I don't care how it looks, as long as it survives.

Should I take it to bare metal and then coat with coal tar epoxy? What would be a good prep process for this?


----------



## outbound

Bob how is the voyager coming along. Seen some drawings which look real sweet. Hear it will be ready for the fall shows.
Back to turkey time y,all


----------



## Lou452

Happy Thanksgiving I also like Smackdaddy happy and thankful for the Opinions that are not the same. Brent and Bob both of you have a great turkey day. I have had more than a few good moments reading both of your comments. 
I have a Question for each of you. Brent,Bob Since Insulation is needed if you wish to have a dry boat that is comfortable. How difficult would it be to make the boat (unsinkable) style Ranger bass boats ?? Titanic, a trident sub. My point anything can go to the bottom. 
Next since the condensation is making water could a water maker/ filter take advantage of this. Would this water contain far less salt to start with ? Is the cost and amount that could be generated just not worth exploring. 
Good Day, Lou


----------



## outbound

Lou take a look at the etap line. A Belgian builder that just went under last year I believe. Still see a lot of their boats around.especially a 39' ' version. They developed a 46 but I never saw one.maybe Paulo knows more about them.


----------



## bobperry

Cas:
Yes, I would have lots of advice on how to do a handsome fishboat conversion but the advice would come in the form of drawings that could be evaluated and revised as necessary until everyone was happy. Then we would proceed with some mock up work maybe, based upon the drawings. Then off to the build drawings in hand. Drawings would be present at every step of the way. This process has served me very well, obviously.

I'm not going to get in a silly parsing of words pissing match with you. I know a lot of yacht designers. I am friends with a lot of yacht designers. We all work from drawings. I think you can design standing on the beach and sawing up wood and screwing it together. I think you can design working from a small scale model or set of models. I think there are a lot of ways you can "design". Maybe if Brent was a more proficient "designer" or employed more tried and proven methods for preparing a "design" his deck structures would not look so consistantly awkward. And "awkward" is the nicest thing I can say. From time to time a see a decent deck on one of Brent's hull but I'm certain that reflects the builder's skill and eye and certainly not anything I would call "design help" from Brent.

I think if you do a quick survey of the history of design going back to Leonardo da Vinci and Michael Angelo up through the more modern great architects, Capability Brown, Chrostopher Wren, Frank Lloyd Wright and Frank Gehry you will find that drawings have always been involved. I'm sure you would like to imagine I invented drawings as a part of the design process but you'd be very wrong.


----------



## bobperry

Out:
Work ( drawings) is coming along nicely. I have to take Phil's sketches and convert them into working drawings ( there are those pesky drawings again) but we are still working in the preliminary drawing ( damn! again with the drawings) phase and have a few important elements to iron out. Phil is good to work with and receptive to my deas.


----------



## bobperry

I see a problem on my drawing. Damned acad. See if you can pick it up.

There, I fixed it. You see I am proud of my design drawings. All of the great designers I mentioned were master draftsmen.


----------



## bobperry

Happy Thanksgiving all of you guys.


----------



## outbound

Happy thanksgiving all ( except the turkey')


----------



## blt2ski

Happy T-day all!

Except the turkey, pig, other type o bird/creature folks have etc........

Then again, if we was in an ocean, somewhere in a polar region, there would be a great white something or other after us.......hmmmmmm......glad I am here, not there!

Marty


----------



## Lou452

Etap was bought by a famous German Co. Could this have been the plastic boat vs the steel tub killed before it was able to grow ? Was it just an overpriced dog that did not do anything well ? just a jack of all trades and a master at none ? Could it be a rising star bought at a good time in market by a sharp forward thinking European co? 
Good Day, Lou


----------



## casioqv

bobperry said:


> I'm sure you would like to imagine I invented drawings as a part of the design process but you'd be very wrong.


Not at all, I am a biomedical engineer by trade and also do my design starting with drawings and diagrams... I'm just objecting to the idea that it's the only way. In the end, having a product that meets the design objectives is what's important... even if the design process is unorthodox.

It seems to me that both you and Brent design well to your design objectives, you just both despise each others philosophy towards what those objectives should be in a sailing boat. I admire both of your designs, because they both ruthlessly adhere to, and successfully achieve the intended goal.


----------



## bobperry

Cas:
I think you will have a very hard time documenting where I said it was "the only way". Maybe you can provide the quote for that. I don't think I would never say that.

The Beatles didn't write their music in the traditional way but they made masterful music.
Have you ever seen the design drawings, often paintings, done as design concepts by Dale Chihuly?

Perhaps you can give me a quick list of the great yacht designers who did not provide drawings. I need to keep an eye on my turkey but I'll check back in half an hour. It's going to be a very short list.


----------



## Classic30

bobperry said:


> Perhaps you can give me a quick list of the great yacht designers who did not provide drawings. I need to keep an eye on my turkey but I'll check back in half an hour. It's going to be a very short list.


I can help here.. pick me! pick me!! 

Given that almost every yacht built prior to 1900 (and not a few afterward) were lofted directly from hand-carved hull models with the rig drawn up on the back on an envelope, the list could be actually rather large. Let's start with Wm Fife, Logan..

(Bob, I think you meant to say "modern" yacht designers..  )


----------



## Faster

bobperry said:


> Happy Thanksgiving all of you guys.


Back at you, Bob, but you're several weeks late!


----------



## PCP

Lou452 said:


> Etap was bought by a famous German Co. Could this have been the plastic boat vs the steel tub killed before it was able to grow ? Was it just an overpriced dog that did not do anything well ? just a jack of all trades and a master at none ? Could it be a rising star bought at a good time in market by a sharp forward thinking European co?
> Good Day, Lou


Hi Lou,

That are news to me. What company are you talking about?

The last news I knew about Elan were sad ones:

Sail-World.com : Whatever happened to the award-winning ETAP?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## casioqv

bobperry said:


> Perhaps you can give me a quick list of the great yacht designers who did not provide drawings. I need to keep an eye on my turkey but I'll check back in half an hour. It's going to be a very short list.


I was defending unorthodox methods which work. It's not exactly unorthodox if you have a long list of famous people already doing it!


----------



## Faster

bobperry said:


> I see a problem on my drawing. Damned acad. See if you can pick it up.


Looks good now! (Centerlines on the first three station sections....)


----------



## bobperry

Classic:
Cute but a gross exageration and missunderstanding of the process. Do you think for a moment that rig on one of those giant Fife sloop came of the back of a napkin? While N.G.Herreshoff may have worked from a carved half model initially he had a machine of his own devising built to transfer the model lines to paper.

I'll say it once again for the slow readers. I never said there was "only one way".


----------



## MikeJohns

tdw said:


> Another old steeler.
> 
> This from I think the first edition of the Proper Yacht. From memory posted in an Anarchy thread on double enders. I have no idea if she still lives.
> 
> ..........


The boat is alive and well, was a Mclear Harris design, sold a few years ago in Texas and underwent a refit. She had several solo crossings of the Atlantic and is apparently a very easy boat to sail and very forgiving. I binned a comprehensive survey on her in an office clean up recently. I looked at her for a client. She has a sister vessel in Australia based in Adelaide.


----------



## Classic30

bobperry said:


> Classic:
> Cute but a gross exageration and missunderstanding of the process. Do you think for a moment that rig on one of those giant Fife sloop came of the back of a napkin? While N.G.Herreshoff may have worked from a carved half model initially he had a machine of his own devising built to transfer the model lines to paper.
> 
> I'll say it once again for the slow readers. I never said there was "only one way".


Gross exaggeration? Yep, you bet.  Misunderstanding? Knowing only too well how they did it, not so much.. I'm just having a dig at you, Bob 

FWIW, maybe not always napkins for rig design (they might not last very long), but designers of yesteryear have been known to use whatever came to hand when working things out, eg:










..but this is getting too far off-topic, so back to the conversation at hand..


----------



## casioqv

smackdaddy said:


> When it comes to boats, I advocate (and practice) recycling by buying existing boats


I also appreciate recycling but it's almost a shame that fiberglass boats last so long... in the old days low budget cruisers *had* to design and build their own boats and this challenge prepared them for the challenges they'd later face at sea.

Nowadays you can't build a boat for less than 10 times the cost of a well built fiberglass boat that will likely outlive it's owner two times over. This takes something away from the cruising experience because you don't have the same technical knowledge or emotional connection with a boat you didn't build yourself.

I've read just about every old cruising epic from Slocum to the Pardeys and I really see a difference between people who built their own boat vs people who just have a production boat. People who built their own boats have categorically better seamanship, better "luck," and a better time at sea. These are the people that are prepared for the worst, and when it happens take it in stride.

Perhaps a good compromise is to just get the most neglected, derelict heap you can find for nearly free. A total restoration, learning and doing every task yourself costs more than a good condition boat but is still cheaper than building your own from scratch. At least that's what I told my wife when I recently travelled 1,000 miles to purchase the worst condition example I've ever seen of my 'dream' craft.


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## SloopJonB

I don't think it's so much the building of a boat that makes them better seamen, although knowing every inch of your boat certainly contributes.

Rather, I think it's that the type of person who wants to/is capable of building their own boat also becomes a better seaman, for the same reason - they are more committed to it.


----------



## Lou452

Etap I think was purchased by Dehler You might find this if you google it. They may just have bought the rights so they can gain some type of patent with out any intention of building the boats Hope this is good info for you Paulo
Good day, Lou


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## Lou452

Oh looking into this more it was in the year 2008 five years ago? Lots of time to shut down a company for profit.
The concept of a boat that floats and will not sink is golden. 
Lou452


----------



## bobperry

Cas:
I'm with you 100%. It's damn shame that grp boat last so long. It is not good for my business.

"People who built their own boats have categorically better seamanship, better "luck," and a better time at sea. These are the people that are prepared for the worst, and when it happens take it in stride."

What an odd thing to say. It assumes a lot of intimate knowldge into these various seafarers. To me it is just subjective hyperbole. I can see where you are coming from and I am not going there.

Classic:
Sorry about that. My Australian sense of humor is still there. But I have to drag it up kicking and screaming some times. I am dead certian that the original Fife drawings were amazing works of art.


----------



## jak3b

If someone is a master builder or craftsman it is going to have a spillover in other areas.Slocum was a Master Mariner of a level that went out with the age of sail.He had to wear many hats and have alot of knowledge about all aspects of shipping, sailing, trading,fishing ,building and maintenance,paymaster,enforcer, long before he rebuilt The Spray.He was at the end of his career and had a life time of experience already.
Larry Pardey is a master craftsman, He is a discipined guy.His boat is always in tip-top shape an absolute jewell box.He is not in ports drinking and hanging out at brothels or trying to make a quick buck smuggling.Hes taking care of his boat.That could be fun though, The negative version of lynn and larry out there in a BS 36,raising hell in exotic places, burning and looting, drinking and carrying on,having demotlition derbys with the ARC rally plastic boats................


----------



## bobperry

Huh?


----------



## Lou452

bobperry said:


> Huh?


Now it is my turn ? are you asking about my post and etap / Delher or about Slocum and such in the post just above. 
From the little I know about J. Slocum he had some great adventure but also some dark times if you read carefully between the lines. I am not sure how one should look at that post. 
Good day, Lou


----------



## PCP

Lou452 said:


> Etap I think was purchased by Dehler You might find this if you google it. They may just have bought the rights so they can gain some type of patent with out any intention of building the boats Hope this is good info for you Paulo
> Good day, Lou


Hi Lou,

You are right, Etap was bought by Dehler back in 2009 and then Dehler bankrupted and was bought by Hanse. I doubt Etap was part of the package and belongs to Hanse. I do not see Hanse allowing the kind of nonsense that goes on ETAP site about doomsday:

*ETAP news
Anyone with internet must have accessed: "How to survive 2012", based on the theory from Patrick Geryl, where he predicts how to survive the cataclysm of 2012. ....

How to survive 2012 ?
Special attention will be given to surviving the tidal wave with the help of unsinkable boats.
If we are able to convince some of the present and future owners to co-operate, thousands of people will certainly survive. Count for yourself: 6,000 boats in total were built in 2002. In 2012 there will be about 10,000. If we are allowed to use a quarter of them, i.e. 2,500, with an average of 4 persons aboard, then about 10,000 people would be able to escape from the tidal wave. That is more than enough to start a new civilization.

Much will depend on the co-operation of ETAP in order to get the addresses of the boat owners. Furthermore, boat owners will have to be convinced to participate. Most of them will possibly make an effort to survive and will be in their boats on the ocean on that particular date. In case they are not interested, we could possibly borrow their boats. I am counting on some captains who will motivate their colleagues to be a part of this plan. Without any doubt, this is the most likely way to survive.

visit the website on : How to survive 2012
*

How to survive 2012 ? | Etap Yachting

So, if you want to survive buy an Etap Doomsday was not on 2012, maybe in 2013 or 2014?

I believe the name belongs now to M.I.C. industries and strangely his manager Toni De Pape , *"sees nothing unusual about featuring all ETAP endorsements on its website, even if they happen to be from survivalists. He says it was not MIC's intention to make Geryl the new unofficial spokesperson for ETAP, but concedes that 'whatever helps our brand is OK with us.' "* (2012 statements).

Sail-World.com : Whatever happened to the award-winning ETAP?

ETAP Yachts Rebranded as Armageddon Life Rafts - Businessweek

Regards

Paulo


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## smackdaddy

When I look at their product claims and their logo...










...I can't help but think it came out of this committee meeting...


----------



## bobperry

Lou:
No, my "huh?" comment was directed at Jak. I was having a bit of a time deciphering exactly what he was trying to say in his last post. Maybe it was an artifact of a long day oif celebrating Thanksgiving on his part. Or maybe my inability to understand it was a reflection of my own fatiugue. Fact is I did all the cooking yesterday so I could not drink a drop. I cook with precision.


----------



## Lou452

Figures a boat that has a concept I would value hard to sink put under by bad management and crazy folks ! How ironic ? The goose looks like it is doing some dirty work behind. 
Good day, Lou


----------



## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> When I look at their product claims and their logo...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...I can't help but think it came out of this committee meeting...


Yes that's sad to see what has become of a brand that once made some of the best sailboats in the market (they were better than the Hunters Smack).

















Their only big defect was not being made of steel.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Very nice interior finish.
Interesting galley sink orientation. I'll have to think about that.


----------



## PCP

The Etap 46Ds, the one with the original galley, was European boat of the year in 2006 in the category of special award for innovation.

The 48DS also had a great interior taking apart those plastics imitating aluminium (You have to click on the square to see the full image). It was their last big boat.

ETAP 48Ds: 360° - Viewer | Etap Yachting


----------



## jak3b

bobperry said:


> Lou:
> No, my "huh?" comment was directed at Jak. I was having a bit of a time deciphering exactly what he was trying to say in his last post. Maybe it was an artifact of a long day oif celebrating Thanksgiving on his part. Or maybe my inability to understand it was a reflection of my own fatiugue. Fact is I did all the cooking yesterday so I could not drink a drop. I cook with precision.


Yup, Sorry about that.I was volunteering at a Thanksgiving feed for about 150 people, Not sure what I was trying to say either.But I like the idea of the alternate Lynn and Larry pardey story.'Larry P. builds a BS 36 out of scrap metal on the beach.....


----------



## smackdaddy

jak3b said:


> I was volunteering at a Thanksgiving feed for about 150 people....


Code for: "I was hammering scotch like a mofo!"


----------



## jak3b

smackdaddy said:


> Code for: "I was hammering scotch like a mofo!"


Haha, no, sorry to say,I was working my ass off.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> When I look at their product claims and their logo...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...I can't help but think it came out of this committee meeting...


That looks like a committee of Smackdaddy deciples.


----------



## Brent Swain

casioqv said:


> I also appreciate recycling but it's almost a shame that fiberglass boats last so long... in the old days low budget cruisers *had* to design and build their own boats and this challenge prepared them for the challenges they'd later face at sea.
> 
> Nowadays you can't build a boat for less than 10 times the cost of a well built fiberglass boat that will likely outlive it's owner two times over. This takes something away from the cruising experience because you don't have the same technical knowledge or emotional connection with a boat you didn't build yourself.
> 
> I've read just about every old cruising epic from Slocum to the Pardeys and I really see a difference between people who built their own boat vs people who just have a production boat. People who built their own boats have categorically better seamanship, better "luck," and a better time at sea. These are the people that are prepared for the worst, and when it happens take it in stride.
> 
> Perhaps a good compromise is to just get the most neglected, derelict heap you can find for nearly free. A total restoration, learning and doing every task yourself costs more than a good condition boat but is still cheaper than building your own from scratch. At least that's what I told my wife when I recently travelled 1,000 miles to purchase the worst condition example I've ever seen of my 'dream' craft.


It's scary to think of the trouble I would have got myself into, had I been able to simply buy my first boat and head out to sea. I learned a lot in the time I spent building and acquiring the money to finally head out. While a lot of it was disinformation, from armchair experts, which cost me far more money and time than I needed to spend, which I try to disabuse beginners of on sites like this, I did learn a lot of valuable information during the economically forced delay, and heading out at 23 was not a huge span of life time wasted


----------



## Brent Swain

casioqv said:


> Bob, before you mentioned how some old trawler conversions look terrible, but others look really good. Do you have any advice on how to make one look good? My dad is converting a 1930s cedar salmon trawler and has it stripped to the bare hull, and hasn't yet decided how to build a cabin.
> 
> I'm no yacht designer, but why would drawings be necessary to make one a yacht designer?
> 
> It sounds to me like Brent's boats were designed by hand constructing and testing models. I don't see how it matters if someone is using a mainstream method, as long as the method used delivers results.


Models give you an excellent opportunity to see how a boat looks from all angles. Another option is to hire a marine artist with a good set of eyes for aesthetics , for an hour or two.


----------



## Brent Swain

casioqv said:


> Brent, do you have any tips for a low cost way of re-rustproofing currently painted steel that is starting to rust and flake the paint off?
> 
> I have an 'expedition vehicle' that I want to use to trailer my pocketcruiser through Baja salt marshes in order to beach launch and go sailing. It's an 80s diesel Isuzu Trooper (same engine as the Acrohc Australis has) and I want to rip it apart and rustproof it so it can survive a while with salt... but on a limited budget. I don't care how it looks, as long as it survives.
> 
> Should I take it to bare metal and then coat with coal tar epoxy? What would be a good prep process for this?


I bought a cheapo sandblaster for $20. You hook one end up to a compressor and stick the tube in a bucket of dry screened sand ( Thru a window screen works) You can rent the compressor from a rentals shop. Slow bu tOK for small jobs .Nothing works for steel like sandblasting. Any dry sand will work. Epoxy tar gives excellent protection on a boat. You have to paint the subsequent coats on within 48 hours, before any dew can fall on it. Dew will give it a brown amine blush, which will stop anything from sticking to it well.
Colour coats should be put on wet epoxy tar. That is the only way to get them to stick well . It will bleed thru and look like hell. Give it another coat within 24 hours , then let it harden for a couple of weeks . Then you can put any colour you want on, with no bleed thru. 
This is what I do on steel boats, probably an over kill for what you want to do, but it works.


----------



## bobperry

There is no way I would trust an artist to duplicate what I have drawn. I can draw 3D sketches of my boats all day long. I need 3D work that can be used for true evaluatiuon of the details in the design. I want a model that will reflect a ,5" change in cabin top camber or a 1" change in cabin top crown profile. I want accuracy so I can fine tune. With the 3D model completed we turn it back into a 2D drawings that can be overlaid over the starting drawings to make sure we have not strayed from the initial design targets. I don't want a pretty cabin trunk to find out I have lost 2" of headroom. When the fine tuning is done the 3D model is used for CNC tooling and that way I can be assurred that the tooling built is exactlly conforming to what I have drawn. This is all way beyond the capability of even the best artists. It's a nice idea but you can't drop a painting off at the CNC shop and say "Call when when the tooling is done."

Of course a beautiful painting can look very nice. But our 3D work isn't too shabby. If an owner wants some art I'll get Scott Chambers to carve him a half model.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> He was suggesting (and I agree) that utilizing an EXISTING glass boat has a smaller footprint than making NEW steel for a new steel boat.
> 
> Tough to have a smaller footprint than using already existing stuff.
> 
> P.S. where is the quote or link about "shape not affecting strength"? Hard to believe that anyone who ever cracked an egg could be that obtuse.


You will find many such quotes, given and supported by "engineer" Mike Johns, on BD.net, the site Smack quotes as factual.


----------



## bobperry

Breat:
What is "epoxy tar"?


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> You will find many such quotes, given and supported by "engineer" Mike Johns, on BD.net, the site Smack quotes as factual.


So if he's an "engineer", I guess you're a "designer".


----------



## bobperry

Here is another example of why I can't use an artist to get the tolerances I need in designing harmonious shapes.

I think what we see here is a fundamental difference in my approach to "design" as opposed to Brent's approach. I'm certainly NOT saying one is right and one is wrong. I'm just suggesting you let your own eyes be the judge. If I am not quite sure I have a stern shaped the way I want it the accurate 3D model can put my mind at ease. This is our Swedish project in it's early stages.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Wow - for a dude who piously shuns scotch, you sure do confuse easily.
> 
> What is typed and what you understand from those words are just two completely different things. You have a real hard time following a point. See - this is why no one believes you when claim someone said something or other. You just never get it right. So the links to the actual quotes are very important for you if you ever want people to believe you.
> 
> Here - let Sloop's summation help you out. He understood the point perfectly:
> 
> When it comes to boats, I advocate (and practice) recycling by buying existing boats. You advocate (and practice) building new ones out of steel - which is blatant consumerism that destroys the environment more than it already is.
> 
> So in this case, your planet-killing carbon footprint is WAY bigger. Just sayin'.


Do you own a car? How many cars do you go thru in your lifetime? How much steel in all combined ? Less than the 8.000 lbs it takes to build a boat out of?
How much fuel does it burn ? Less than the $35 worth a month my boat uses?
I have never owned a car, and many of my clients don't intend on owning one, once they have a boat to live in.
Have you ever owned a house? How much electricity and water did it take? More than the milliamps per day or the 17 gallons every couple of weeks I use? How much of it did you generate yourself? Does your house use less than I and my live aboard clients use? 
How many houses have you owned ? How many trees in a house? Fewer than it takes to put an interior in a 36 footer?
What was the environmental foot print of heating it? Less than it takes to heat a well insulated 36 footer?
How long have you lived aboard? Longer than the 40 years I have? What was your comparative environmental foot print, for the years you lived ashore?
Dirt dwellers use environmentalism as an excuse for forcing people to adopt their environmentally destructive lifestyles, largely out of envy, by lobbying for legal restrictions on our lifestyle. Live aboards have the right to have the facts, with which to defend our way of life. 
So dirt dwellers, like Bob, don't have a right to veto the dispersion of such facts, and yes, they are very relevant to those liveaboards, who choose not to be dirt dwellers.
Environmental facts are very relevant to those who seek the live aboard lifestyle, even if some dirt dwellers like Bob don't give a rats ass about our future, or their children's future.


----------



## PCP

casioqv said:


> ..... in the old days low budget cruisers *had* to design and build their own boats and this challenge prepared them for the challenges they'd later face at sea.


Build a boat is not more challenging than to have a full job and at the same time to take a degree at night or having two jobs for support the family or have money to buy a boat. It is not hardship that prepare you for the challenges of the sea but seamanship that you get with sea experience and adequate training.



casioqv said:


> Nowadays you can't build a boat for less than 10 times the cost of a well built fiberglass boat that will likely outlive it's owner two times over. ...


That is certainly not true. Marc Lombard and other designers provide very good plans for plywood epoxy boats that if you have the time to build them will be a lot lesser expensive than a similar fiberglass boat, I mean a new boat.



casioqv said:


> I've read just about every old cruising epic from Slocum to the Pardeys and I really see a difference between people who built their own boat vs people who just have a production boat. People who built their own boats have categorically better seamanship, better "luck," and a better time at sea. These are the people that are prepared for the worst, and when it happens take it in stride.


It seems to me an empty generalization. I know of guys that build their boat, to sail it for 2 months just to sell it again and start building another. See, they like more building boats than sailing

I know of others that practically never sailed and don't have time for it because they are building a boat. When the boat it is finished they go away in the boat without any kind or very little sea experience.

I know of several very experienced sailors that built their boats (when they were not yet experienced) because that's the only way they could afford having a boat and many years later when they where experienced and had the money for a production boat they bought one that they have considered vastly superior to the boat they had built themselves.

What makes a good sailor is not the time they pass building a boat, or doing something else, but the experience they have at sea, in time and quality, in one word seamanship. The ones that built the boats are builders the ones that sail them are sailors and if a builder can be a good sailor most of the best sailors in the world have never built a boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Do you own a car? How many cars do you go thru in your lifetime? How much steel in all combined ? Less than the 8.000 lbs it takes to build a boat out of?
> How much fuel does it burn ? Less than the $35 worth a month my boat uses?
> I have never owned a car, and many of my clients don't intend on owning one, once they have a boat to live in.
> Have you ever owned a house? How much electricity and water did it take? More than the milliamps per day or the 17 gallons every couple of weeks I use? How much of it did you generate yourself? Does your house use less than I and my live aboard clients use?
> How many houses have you owned ? How many trees in a house? Fewer than it takes to put an interior in a 36 footer?
> What was the environmental foot print of heating it? Less than it takes to heat a well insulated 36 footer?
> How long have you lived aboard? Longer than the 40 years I have? What was your comparative environmental foot print, for the years you lived ashore?
> Dirt dwellers use environmentalism as an excuse for forcing people to adopt their environmentally destructive lifestyles, largely out of envy, by lobbying for legal restrictions on our lifestyle. Live aboards have the right to have the facts, with which to defend our way of life.
> So dirt dwellers, like Bob, don't have a right to veto the dispersion of such facts, and yes, they are very relevant to those liveaboards, who choose not to be dirt dwellers.
> Environmental facts are very relevant to those who seek the live aboard lifestyle, even if some dirt dwellers like Bob don't give a rats ass about our future, or their children's future.


And at the end of all this, you still advocate building a new boat out of steel. That's bad. That's an environmental fact.

Recycling Brent. It's for the children.


----------



## AlaskaMC

Happy Belated Thanksgiving everyone. I was outta town this week. Actually traveling to remote communities in Bristol Bay. For the record, didn't see a single steel boat out there. Size limit for fishermen is 32 feet in that fishery and the choice of all is aluminum. Seems they think that in that size range that steel isn't an appropriate choice.

And Brent, why is it that whenever anyone asks you a direct question that you don't have an answer too you just seem to change the subject? Like your response above, first it was new steel vs reused fg hull, so you changed the argument to steel vs new fg. Then when you were called on that, you changed it to new steel vs cars and life at sea vs life on land. I would continue with what I am beginning to think of your idea of being a productive member of society but then I am just being a hater too. If living by yourself at sea and hating everyone else's choices makes you feel happy, then I am happy for you. Enjoy. Give Thanks that you live in a society that lets you make that choice.


----------



## AlaskaMC

Brent Swain said:


> Environmental facts are very relevant to those who seek the live aboard lifestyle, even if some dirt dwellers like Bob don't give a rats ass about our future, or their children's future.


You mean the Bob that volunteers to teach elementary students about boats? How often do you volunteer your time to teach children?


----------



## Brent Swain

Tim Newman said:


> That's a good argument for living in a shipping container instead of a house.


Shipping containers make excellent houses. Decades ago, I read on the back of a pilot chart, how they kept going missing ,being stolen for housing in third world countries. I heard that in Guam, there are companies specializing in shipping container housing. They drive big rebars into the ground to hold them down during hurricanes, then weld the rebars to the containers. Its interesting to speculate how much better off Haiti, etc., would have been, had they been using containers for housing during the earth quakes, along with government buildings and schools . Ditto any place with earthquakes or hurricanes 
A lady once told me of a hurricane in Pago Pago, in which containers were blowing down the harbour like tumbleweeds. You definitely have to weld them down. She also mentioned someone who obtained a refer container; air conditioning.
I have heard that the cost benefit if shipping them back to China is very marginal, compared to building new ones in China. So why don't rich countries, as their disaster relief, pay China the difference, and have them shipped to disaster zones as replacement housing? They are highly hurricane proof, earthquake proof , burglar proof , fireproof , etc., etc., cheap, and ready made, already being moved all over the planet.
Like a steel boat in a hurricane, they would be far more resistant to the flying debris, which can be so deadly.


----------



## Brent Swain

AlaskaMC said:


> You mean the Bob that volunteers to teach elementary students about boats? How often do you volunteer your time to teach children?


Good work Bob!
I have taken some cruising from the age of 3 and 5, to the age of 28 and 30 and am now taking their next generation cruising.
Without taking care of the environment, they have no future.


----------



## Brent Swain

AlaskaMC said:


> Happy Belated Thanksgiving everyone. I was outta town this week. Actually traveling to remote communities in Bristol Bay. For the record, didn't see a single steel boat out there. Size limit for fishermen is 32 feet in that fishery and the choice of all is aluminum. Seems they think that in that size range that steel isn't an appropriate choice.
> 
> And Brent, why is it that whenever anyone asks you a direct question that you don't have an answer too you just seem to change the subject? Like your response above, first it was new steel vs reused fg hull, so you changed the argument to steel vs new fg. Then when you were called on that, you changed it to new steel vs cars and life at sea vs life on land. I would continue with what I am beginning to think of your idea of being a productive member of society but then I am just being a hater too. If living by yourself at sea and hating everyone else's choices makes you feel happy, then I am happy for you. Enjoy. Give Thanks that you live in a society that lets you make that choice.


One can never afford to take for granted our freedom to make choices . They must be defended at any challenge, environmental excuses being one of the most common .Anti liveaboard rules are flourishing and posting the facts helps to keep the liveaboard lifestyle an option.
The question was originally about the comparison between building a NEW FG boat and a new steel boat.

So you quit changing the subject!


----------



## bobperry

"even if some dirt dwellers like Bob don't give a rats ass about our future, or their children's future. "

Your anger and desperation are showing again It is not very pleasant.

You know zero about my concerns for the environment. Zero. I do not think they are relevant to this thread. I do not discuss them here. The fact that yopu applaud me for volunteering at the school for the past 25 years means nothing to me BS. It's all BS when it comes out of you.

So you can carry on being ignorant and bitter while lieing or we can get back on track.

Why don't we get back on track and discuss excellance in design?
I'll tell you why. Because Brent has no place in that discussion. So he will beat the "footprint" argument to death in an effort not to have to discuss design.
Pathetic.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Happy thanksgiving all ( except the turkey')


In Canada, we celebrate thanksgiving in October, because in these latitudes, there is less to feel thankful about by late November.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> The question was originally about the comparison between building a NEW FG boat and a new steel boat.
> 
> So you quit changing the subject!


Really, Brent?



CaptainQuiet said:


> I'm thinking about making the leap from fiberglass to steel for our next sailboat. We want to do some far flung cruising - maybe even circumnavigate. Our present boat is a 1977 Tartan 37 and while we love it - since we've had a child and possibly will have another one on the way it might get a bit small for a liveaboard situation.
> This summer I drove a big, old steel tour boat around the finger lakes and started thinking that steel might be a good way to get my family around the big marble.
> I've spent a week in the Caribbean on a glorious aluminium boat but have never sailed a steel one, so I have lots of questions about their performance as cruising boats?
> What are some of the better designers to keep and eye out for?
> How good are they in the hot climates?
> Are there any extra dangers in lightning?
> Thanks for any and all advice you can give.





CaptainQuiet said:


> Thanks for all the feedback.
> I'm not sure we're in the market for a newly built vessel - our budget is more aligned with 10- 20 year old boats.
> I'm a novice welder and would like to find something that needs major TLC and new systems so I could put it together before heading out.
> Weight and therefore slowness is something I thought might be an issue. We are shopping for something in the 40 to 45 foot range, so maybe the advice PCP gives about aluminium deserves a closer look - where could we find info about the French boats? I always thought aluminum was too expensive.
> Center cockpit and aft cabin are also something that appeals to us. Cutter or Ketch both could work. The design of the Stevens 47 or the 44 Kelley Peterson, or even Ted Brewer's Whitby 42 are ones that I've liked. Any of those in steel out there?
> Thanks again for all the feedback.


Yet again, not exactly "accurate" with your claims. And you wonder why people don't believe anything you say?


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Smackers:
> If you think I'd waste my time and my scotch sending a bottle to BS then you have not been paying attention.
> 
> Send me your mailing address and I'll send you one too. No foollin'.


I have absolutely no use for a bottle of Scotch. I need a bottle of scotch the way a chicken needs Colonel Saunders!


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I have absolutely no use for a bottle of Scotch. I need a bottle of scotch the way a chicken needs Colonel Saunders!


Now that's funny. Who the hell is this "Colonel Saunders"?


----------



## bobperry

Colonel Saunders?

He's deperately trying to change the subject again.

You miss my point (again) BS. I wouldn't send you scotch if you drank scotch.


----------



## outbound

Brent some of us cruise our boats. We liberate hydro carbons going in and out of harbors. Our sails are made of synthetics and need periodic replacement requiring consumption of more energy and hydrocarbon liberation. The boats and boat bits wear out and need replacing. My lines are low stretch dyneema not hemp. My sails aren't Egyptian cotton. When sailing hell even my clothes are all synthetics( like a dry bottom). My " footprint" in my house is probably less than in my boat. Miles driven depends on how you make your living not if you live in a boat or house. Yes I think and act to decrease my footprint but this is totally independent of the decision to sail in Fe or grp .
By the way I've lived in 150 year old house. Have you lived in 150 year old steel boat.
Going back to the o.p. Increasingly it seems Al is better choice than Fe for those wanting a metal boat.
I apologize to all for raising the issue of etap. 
Brent if you actually sail your boat you go through more hydrocarbons than the average city dweller in the world. Maybe you should stop wearing out your sails, running your engine, burning wood and move to Mumbai or NYC.
And for g-ds sake stop welding


----------



## blt2ski

This Scott's guy will take the Scotch!

I'm also a bit Irish and Welsh, does that help any either? or explain my problems?!?!?!?

Marty


----------



## bobperry

Any time Marty. You know were I live.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Here is another example of why I can't use an artist to get the tolerances I need in designing harmonious shapes.
> 
> I think what we see here is a fundamental difference in my approach to "design" as opposed to Brent's approach. I'm certainly NOT saying one is right and one is wrong. I'm just suggesting you let your own eyes be the judge. If I am not quite sure I have a stern shaped the way I want it the accurate 3D model can put my mind at ease. This is our Swedish project in it's early stages.


 Nice shape; for fibreglass! Nasty shape , for steel ! Trying to get that radius on the cabin top- cabinside in steel would be a huge waste of time. I know one guy who tried it, and he got a lot of distortion. Most of the classics have no such huge radius there, and look just fine.
Hollow cockpit coamings are easy in GRP, but a huge mistake in steel. I know one guy who tired it on a Simpson design. Inaccessible corrosion inside. He cut them off, and replaced them with something simpler, and with full access for maintenance.
Nice a canoe stern; for fibreglass. A huge waste of time and money in steel . I know a guy who built a Brewer designed steel boat with that shape. Took him 2 years to build just the hull. $8K to have the stern plates rolled. It took several 45 gallon drums of filler to make it fair. This is what you get when you employ a designer who works mainly in GRP but who has no hands on experience in steel. What your computer can draw a pretty picture of, and what goes together easily in steel, without a huge infusion of time , money and filler, are radically different things. Only hands on experience in working with steel can give you an understanding of what works and what is a huge and very expensive waste of cruising time. Don't make the mistake of believing anyone's expertise or track record with fibreglass qualifies him equally to design in steel, or even comment on something he knows so little about.
Not everyone can afford to pay someone with the equipment $150 an hour. An artist can do it for far less.
When looking at an ugly boat one can learn a lot by nit just saying "Man that's ugly", but by asking "What makes it so ugly?" Sometimes just changing the shape of ports, or a line, etc., can make a huge difference. When you do that, you learn some basic rules about aesthetics, which can be applied elsewhere.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Breat:
> What is "epoxy tar"?


Its coal tar based two part epoxy, sold by most paint manufacturers( Pittsburg , General, Cloverdale, International, etc). Some are 4 to 1 hardener to resin, some are 1 to1 .
1to1 is handier, but has a shorter shelf life than the 4 to1 brands.
A single coat of epoxy tar gives more protection than 5 of many other epoxy paints. Its a hard finish which I have used inside diesel tanks with no problems. It is often much cheaper than other, less effective epoxies.


----------



## Brent Swain

PCP said:


> Yes that's sad to see what has become of a brand that once made some of the best sailboats in the market (they were better than the Hunters Smack).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Their only big defect was not being made of steel.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I wouldn't want to try get that kind of keel thru the kelp on the north coast. You would have a hell of time trying to get into Larsen Harbour or Burnaby Narrows (or many other places) with that contraption hanging off the bottom. Reality would over rule designers fantasies quickly, up there. Is that a real teak deck or a phoney one? Teak over fibreglass is a disaster waiting to happen.
How many seconds would that flimsy bow roller last, when the anchor was jammed under a rock in a swell, while you were trying to raise it quickly, on a lee shore at night?
Notice the huge weather helm.


----------



## bobperry

This is my son Max, my daughter in law Stacy and my lovely granddaughter Violet. In April they will be joined by my new grandson, no name yet. If you think for one moment that they are not reason enough for me to care about the environment and the future of the planet then you are a fool. A true fool. It is now their world. I'll do what I can to help leave it in good shape.

Max actually does have a neck despite the photo. But he's 6'5" and I think he feels the need to scrunch down all the time to fit in the picture. Violet is starting to look a lot like Stacy. Look at the eyes.



Brent:
I really don't think you have the design qualifications to comment on my design work. I'd have to see some of yours that I felt was on a par with mine to give you that degree of credibility. For now and until I see better you remain a design hack.

"Don't make the mistake of believing anyone's expertise or track record with steel qualifies him equally to design in fibergalss, or even comment on something he knows so little about."
I think that applies perfectly to you BS. Your words with some editing.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> This is what you get when you employ a designer who works mainly in GRP but who has no hands on experience in steel. What your computer can draw a pretty picture of, and what goes together easily in steel, without a huge infusion of time , money and filler, are radically different things. Only hands on experience in working with steel can give you an understanding of what works and what is a huge and very expensive waste of cruising time. Don't make the mistake of believing anyone's expertise or track record with fibreglass qualifies him equally to design in steel, or even comment on something he knows so little about.


It's funny how you keep forgetting about the steel boats Bob has mentioned...the ones he designed. He seems to have experience in steel.

How many GRP boats have you "designed" again, Brent?

If you could simply show your work as Bob has asked many, many times - instead of just incessantly insulting designers who can actually demonstrate what they claim - you might get some respect. As it is, you have none. Zero. Not even in steel.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> And,,, stop this holier than thou, smaller carbon footprint BS. Nobody cares.
> 
> Here's the Bob Quote!
> He clearly said he doesn't give a rats ass about the environment!


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> It's funny how you keep forgetting about the steel boats Bob has mentioned...the ones he designed. He seems to have experience in steel.
> 
> How many GRP boats have you "designed" again?
> 
> If you could simply show your work as Bob has asked many, many times - instead of just incessantly insulting designers who can actually demonstrate what they claim - you might get some respect. As it is, you have none. Zero. Not even in steel.


You can see all my designs on the origamiboats site(Yahoo groups) as I have mentioned many times here( to some slow learners?)
The designers of the boats with the screwups I mentioned, all have steel boat experience, designing the screw-ups.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> And,,, stop this holier than thou, smaller carbon footprint BS. Nobody cares.





Brent Swain said:


> Here's the Bob Quote!
> He clearly said he doesn't give a rats ass about the environment!


No. He clearly said nobody cares about your holier than thou insistence that you have a smaller carbon footprint than everyone else. And he's right.

You're not a very good reader.


----------



## bobperry

I have designed four steel boats. I just don't like working in steel. The material is far too much in charge of the outcome. Perfect example is the BS method wher geometry is calling the shots. It works for BS and that's great but I am a designer and I like to control shapes so it doesn't work for me. But, looking back my four steel boats are head and shoulders better than anything BS produced. My steel NIGHT RUNNER is a honey as is my steel Tayana 37. Sorry I don't have any pics. It was pre-digital era.

I did the steel Tayan 37 for a guy I met at a party. He was an ex pro football player, big. We got to talking and he mentioned he was going to build a steel boat. He said he had the plans in the car. I asked to see them. He produced a set of plans that were so bad I said, " I'll design you a boat for free just to prevent you from building that boat." I think those were my exact words. He said, "Fine, let's do it." I designed the boat. Gratis.He built an amazing boat with hydraulic drive and a dry exhaust, a nice pilot house and a big cutter rig. He loved the boat. He was probably 35 years old when he fell over dead on the way to the grocery store.

He sent me an amazing gift, He went to one of the premier custom pipe makers in the US and had a pipe carved for me with my name inscribed in the bottom. It;s a giant straight grain pipe. Briar or really White Heath, the wood used for pipes, comes as a root burl. The grain is usually anything but straight. But once in a great while you get a burl with some straight grain. These pipes are very prescious. and rare. I have about a dozen of them. It's my hobby. What can I say. But I digress.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> You can see all my designs on the origamiboats site(Yahoo groups) as I have mentioned many times here( to some slow learners?)
> The designers of the boats with the screwups I mentioned, all have steel boat experience, designing the screw-ups.


I've looked at that site - and I've not seen anything that shows you are an actual yacht designer, as the term is commonly understood. There are some profile/plan drawings of your various boats (done, I think, by you), photos of you enriching the Chinese welding together new plant-raping steel hulls, some okay steel boats that have been built by a couple of others, and many that will likely never be finished, but nothing more than that (e.g - the kinds of detailed drawings and shape studies real designers like Bob Perry regularly puts up for each of his boats).

What am I missing?


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## bobperry

Brent: Smacks is right. You are not a good reader. I meant in this thread environmental concerns do not seem appropos.


----------



## mitiempo

As far as I can tell Brent's boats, while appreciated by a few, all really look very similar except for length.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - I'm taking another look - trying to find ANYTHING that gives Brent the credibility to insult someone like Bob. So far - nothing.

There is this:

Yahoo Groups

This is one of the nicest examples of a BS boat I've seen in terms of quality construction (though it's aluminum, not steel apparently). Ironically, it's this quality construction that shows EXACTLY what Bob is talking about in terms of how the geometry method limits the shape, and how Brent's claims of a perfectly fair hull is not quite what it seems:









See the deformities in the hull shape?









See the waviness in the deckhouse edging?

Don't get me wrong. This is a very, very nice example of a BS boat. And I'm taking absolutely nothing away from the guy building it because he's clearly doing an incredible job. The problem is, he's limited by the "design". It's just not what Brent promises.


----------



## blt2ski

Bob, I'll pop up that way sometime, now if I could remember which road on the reservation I did some work on........lower shoemaker, 47 ave, Hermosa beach road are the ones that seem to ring a bell. Could have been Mission Beach road, but that area does not look right on Google.......I'm thinking it was north of the bay.......but many years ago......

Marty


----------



## blt2ski

Brent,

That keel would not be that bad of a design around here, dispite all the kelp beds, crab pots etc. I can think of a few more options that would be WAY the heck worst that that one! Try some of the ones with torpedo bulbs!

Marty


----------



## smackdaddy

From the origami boats site.

Topic: "Construction Time"



> Alex Bar: I think there are quite a lot of people here on this group owning a BS yacht.
> Does anybody know the average time spent in building the ruogh hull?
> 
> I know it depend's on many items (tools,place,weather,ability...) but just to have an idea.
> 
> It would be interesting to know the time splited in this way:
> 
> 1. cutting the sheets (hull,deck,cabin top,)
> 
> 2. fixing longitudinals, pulling the two half, joining the two half plus transom
> 
> 3. deck fixing plus cabin top
> 
> 4. keel plus rudder
> 
> NOT the time for detailing


Who would you believe?



> Brentswain38: 100 hours is tacking together the basic shell, hull decks cabin, wheelhouse, cockpit keel and skeg . Trim means finishing details like handrails, lifelines, hatches , chocks and cleats, mast step and support , vents, engine mounts, tankage, stern tube , rudder fittings, self steering, etc etc . all of which can be done for a fraction the cost of buying all that gear at retail prices from the ship swindlers. Welding it down takes a fraction the time of bolting down yachtie gear, and is far tougher , more reliable and with zero chance of it ever leaking .





> cnc sales (hanermo): I think it was about that-300 hours a basic brent boat in the 10 m range.
> but this assumes fast and furious, skills and tools.
> And not going for a yachty look, fit and finish.
> And no or minimal systems.
> 
> Most people seem to spend a lot longer.
> 
> You can spend that, and more, on "systems" if you want to.
> Plumbing, waste tanks (these are legally mandatory, in the EU and more and more elsewhere), cabling and wiring, electronics etc.
> 
> I am of the opinion somewhere in-between.
> Hot and cold pressure water if I will spend long times in the boat.
> Creature comforts and hotel loads.
> But workboat ie industrial systems.
> 
> Its about 30x cheaper per results gained to use industrial stuff than "yachty" stuff.
> Things like industrial/farm pumps etc.
> They also last in offshore use, unlike anything you find in the overpriced yacht store.
> 
> For me, I would also add large PV systems and batteries and inverters.
> These are really cheap these days at wholesale prices.
> And they are by no means necessary, but will add a huge comfort level.
> For relatively minimal cost.
> About 3000 for large batteries, PV, inverters and controllers, all-in.
> Add a small watermaker and you have unlimited showers, drinking water, electronics, lights, pc, etc.
> Radar if you want it.
> 
> And it very much depends on wheather you will go cruising for real or just spend some time off in the boat, imo.
> And if you have family.
> And if you want to or need to work. And what work you do.


----------



## smackdaddy

And this...



> Kim: Brent or anyone ...
> 
> It could be that I will set a record for taking the longest time to build a 26-footer! It has now been 3 years since I bought the steel and started construction. But that's OK. Rest assured I will eventually finish and launch my boat!


What's the problem Brent? Wait...let's let your followers explain (they're much more credible)...



> Paul: 3 years? I have heard of much worse. That is the way it goes....just
> keep at it, enjoy the building and one day you will be sailing.





> Tom: Hello Kim
> Mine went a couple years before sandblasting and had just minor surface
> rust, as long as the water doesn't stand anywhere and just runs off it wont
> get to bad for quite a while. If it is going to be a few more years maybe
> just shoot some cheap primer on it preferably a white


I thought it was 100 hours! What's going on here?


----------



## bobperry

Marty:
I'm a hell of a cook. If you could give me 24 hours notice I could feed you, Mrs. Marty and other Marties in fine fashion.
If you bring kids they can swim in my pool. I just need 24 hours notice.

I am not the AH that some would like to paint me. But I can be.

Smackers:
I think we need to be planning a week next summer. The boys would be in heaven here. I'd really like to meet them. I'd try to cook their favorite dishes. Let's start planning this.


----------



## aeventyr60

*"I thought it was 100 hours! What's going on here?"
*

Maybe just another pipe dream? I read some of the BS builders blogs and nobody was doing it 100 hours. Likely 100 months would be a closer figure?


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Marty:
> I'm a hell of a cook. If you could give me 24 hours notice I could feed you, Mrs. Marty and other Marties in fine fashion.
> If you bring kids they can swim in my pool. I just need 24 hours notice.
> 
> I am not the AH that some would like to paint me. But I can be.
> 
> Smackers:
> I think we need to be planning a week next summer. The boys would be in heaven here. I'd really like to meet them. I'd try to cook their favorite dishes. Let's start planning this.


You got it, Bob. I'm taking the boys to Europe in March (England and Scotland), then will be doing our first offshore sometime that summer. But we do need to get up to your neck of the woods too. I'll look at our summer sched and we'll make it happen.


----------



## smackdaddy

aeventyr60 said:


> *"I thought it was 100 hours! What's going on here?"
> *
> 
> Maybe just another pipe dream? I read some of the BS builders blogs and nobody was doing it 100 hours. Likely 100 months would be a closer figure?


I know, aev. It's almost like Brent's not telling the truth.

Weird.


----------



## bobperry

Europe?
Europe?

When you could be bringing them to the Tulalip Tribes Resvervation?

Can I come with you?


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Europe?
> Europe?
> 
> When you could be bringing them to the Tulalip Tribes Resvervation?
> 
> Can I come with you?


Yeah, Exxon is sending us. Seems our carbon footprint won some award.

Heh-heh.


----------



## smackdaddy

This is probably the most damning thing I've come across on BS' site:



> easysoftware99...: Only a small, elite group of people have the thousands of dollars and spare time available to build.


Yahoo Groups

I think that pretty much sums up how BS boats are not at all for the 99% as Brent claims. They are, according to his own customers, only for the small elite...the 1%.

I had such high hopes.


----------



## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> ...........Why would they put all those kinks in if ,as "engineer" Mike Johns implies, shape has little or no effect on stiffness?





Brent Swain said:


> You will find many such quotes, given and supported by "engineer" Mike Johns, on BD.net, the site Smack quotes as factual.


You were caught out with dishonesty repeatedly on BD net and driven off by (un)popular appeal, dishonesty seems to be your hallmark these days too and it's getting worse.

Do you really believe all your posts or are you aware that you are getting a name throughout the world as a spin artist never to be trusted?

No body ever attacked you ever for being part aboriginal. BD net is strictly moderated and nothing racist is tolerated. You are simply lying.

The coast guard were never attacked on BD net for supporting you. In fact you tried to imply that a safety check once by the coastguard amounted to vindication of your design. It was simply pointed out that a safety gear check is just that.

Lets come back to shape and stiffness since you have been trying to mock me with that.

It was your contention that shape adds stiffness and therefore no framing was/is necessary on your metal foldup boats. You suggested up to variously 50, 60 and even once 65 feet.

Now read this slowly &#8230;&#8230;I and others spent some time and effort trying to show you the different between tensile, shear and buckling strength. How a framed thin panel is in tension under load, and is much stronger than a shaped unframed thin panel and why, and how a sheet of steel or stiffener that's bent and fixed under a lot of stress buckles very easily from external loads. The last is a little harder to understand and it appears the whole lot went completely over your head.
The corollary you took from this is that because I said you were misinformed I am therefore saying shape doesn't add stiffness ! That's fairly typical of your level of understanding of engineering.

As an illustration; why did your initial designs buckle and rotate their keels up into the boat on relatively gentle grounding for example? 
The answer is that the imagined strength from shape didn't exist and a pre stressed shaped panel has two stable states and the transition is known as 'snap through'.

The solution to this initial design flaw was to add 'framing' by using an inbuilt tank end to strengthen that area. Other parts of your boat designs still apparently damage easily from grounding. So what passes for a 36 footer will not pass for a 60 footer. I also offered to help you ( and consequently your future clients) to alter the design and put a small amount of material in a few strategic places to improve the design considerably. Your response was complete disinterest and a spate of very ignorant attacks on the process of load based design.

I think a lot of this bluster is because you are completely compromised by your past, misinformed advice, posts and publications. Now you are too entrenched in a stinking mire. So you throw lots of mud. But seems everyone is on to you here too.

But lets come back to the fact that if you can't link to anything it's just a complete fabrication. As I gave examples above.


----------



## bobperry

Oh.

" So you throw lots of mud"
It keeps BS from having to discuss real design issues. Personal attacks are his only defence.

We should deserve better here.


----------



## AlaskaMC

Ouch


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> I did the steel Tayan 37 for a guy I met at a party. He was an ex pro football player, big. We got to talking and he mentioned he was going to build a steel boat. He said he had the plans in the car. I asked to see them. He produced a set of plans that were so bad I said, " I'll design you a boat for free just to prevent you from building that boat." I think those were my exact words. He said, "Fine, let's do it." I designed the boat.


If I round up some ugly plans, show them to you and threaten to build it, will you design ME a boat for free too?


----------



## jak3b

I had a correspondence with Dick Newick about amature building.He said there is absolutley no reason to build an ugly boat,It take takes just as much effort and time to build a boxy ugly boat than one that is well designed from the start, maybe longer because of having to fix all the bad designers crap.


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## bobperry

Jak:
That has been my point all along. With the exact same materials and same amount of time cutting and welding, armed witha decent set of plans the home builder can build a good looking boat. But if the plans are lacking in detail and care you will have no idea what shapes will arise. If the designer wants to control the design elelemnts of the boat he MUST design!


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## blt2ski

Smack,

showup during August if you can, 2nd or 3rd weekend is the Perry roundezvous at Port Ludlow! I've heard it is a PHun time. I was doing a Pink Boat Regatta so could not make it. Sorry Bob, boobs won out over you! Did raise 1800 or so for breast cancer research!

any way, off to take mrs to breakfast, then meet one of my sons to put a star on the top of the mast, and decorate the boat for the coming best decorated boat contest at the club. Have won 3 yrs in a row! Hopefully someone or two or three will step up and try to out do me. That would be good for ALL the folks that come to the marina to look at the lit up boats in the guest moorage area. 

Marty


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## blt2ski

100 hrs to build a brent boat?!?!?!?! I find that hard to believe. I've heard 40 hrs for a typical 8' pram depending upon how detailed you go with paint etc on one of them. 3 yrs start to finish, thats nothing. took my step dad 30 some years to get a B Garden boat finished! Probably because when building a boat, you can not spend 8-10 hrs a day 5-7 days a week working on it. You do 2-3 hrs here, and there and anywhere, and sooner or later you get finished. Took me a year in 6th grade to build an 8' pram.........

Marty


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## Faster

A former colleague is building a Brentboat... he used the metalworking/welding shop in the college where we worked to 'pull' the hull together... 15-20 years ago. It's still in his shed. I suppose he may well have pulled the hull and had it welded it up in 100 hours - but not 100 manhours...


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## jak3b

bobperry said:


> Jak:
> That has been my point all along. With the exact same materials and same amount of time cutting and welding, armed witha decent set of plans the home builder can build a good looking boat. But if the plans are lacking in detail and care you will have no idea what shapes will arise. If the designer wants to control the design elelemnts of the boat he MUST design!


And all that detailing is more work, ergo, more expensive BUT it is money well spent because it saves you money in the end.You are not standing around scratching yer bum thinking ,'what the hell is he trying say here' you know what you need from the git go and can schedual your work.A fully detailed set of well drawn plans will give you an education in construction.Well, I am going sailing today on a plastic I36,I know I am taking my life in my hands,we might hit some drift wood,get dive bombed by gulls or attacked by sea lions or run down by a frieghter full of chinese steal.Pray for me;-)


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## blt2ski

Jak,

sounds as good as me, only my sons will be pulling me up the mast!!!!! hmmmmmm.......I wonder if that is safe. they have the same wacked out sense o humour I do. I could get left up there. dropped for my life insurance......hmmmmmmmmmmm.........

Marty


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## smackdaddy

About that carbon footprint for BS'ers...

From BS's site:








_Melting sheet led for the keel._

If you simply buy a used FG boat, not only will you save years and years of work, and be sailing instead of smelting, you will absolutely do FAR less damage to the planet than if you do what Brent tells you you should do. Period. End of story.










Please recycle. For the children.

(Which of the above would you rather hang out with?)


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## casioqv

PCP said:


> The ones that built the boats are builders the ones that sail them are sailors and if a builder can be a good sailor most of the best sailors in the world have never built a boat.


I was talking about a different set of of skills than you learn just sailing a boat: intimate technical knowledge about how the boat is constructed, and in general how boats are constructed. For example hours at sea won't teach you about how different materials corrode and how to prevent this, or how to calculate the stresses on standing rigging and choose proper angles. This helps you to prepare the boat to be reliable, and to jury rig a solution when something fails at sea.

This isn't knowledge you get from sailing boats, but from building and repairing them. When the **** hits the fan, you need to be an engineer, a craftsman, *and* a sailor. Only the latter comes from sea experience.


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## smackdaddy

casioqv said:


> I was talking about a different set of of skills than you learn just sailing a boat: intimate technical knowledge about how the boat is constructed, and in general how boats are constructed. For example hours at sea won't teach you about how different materials corrode and how to prevent this, or how to calculate the stresses on standing rigging and choose proper angles. This helps you to prepare the boat to be reliable, and to jury rig a solution when something fails at sea.
> 
> This isn't knowledge you get from sailing boats, but from building and repairing them. When the **** hits the fan, you need to be an engineer, a craftsman, *and* a sailor. Only the latter comes from sea experience.


For the type of sailing 98% of us will ever do (e.g. - coastal, island hops, 3-5 day runs, etc.) - this approach is WAY overkill.

Calculate stresses on standing rigging? Seriously?

I agree that ingenuity and handiness with tools is essential for longer runs, but I think you're a bit too worried about poop-spewing-fans.


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## bobperry

Not to mention Fukashima debris.

I'm going to call my next band Fukashima Debris.


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## smackdaddy

Oh - this has got to hurt, Brent. One of your biggest sailing stars is going back to plastic after sailing your steeler for years?????



> silascrosby: Paul , don't laugh, but the plan is to get an F-27 folding tri once Silas Crosby is sold.
> 
> In the winter it can go in the garden on a trailer, or we can zip down to Baja by road and cruise the Sea of Cortez, or by trailer to Homer,Ak and explore the Alaska Peninsula some more. Actually what I'm really excited about is trying to go to Haida Gwaii, N coast of BC, and the West Coast of V.I. on such a craft. I can see that a smaller Jordan drogue used carefully could really extend the abilities of such a marginal sea-going vessel. Plus, what a gas to sail.
> I'll have to consult with Brent about a REALLY compact wood heater
> 
> Of course I still would get the shallow water and beaching abilities, with a little more care and consideration than on my present boat.
> 
> However ,yes, it means saying good-bye for the time being to big open ocean scenarios. No regrets so far.
> 
> Gotta have a plan,right?


I guess he finally saw the light. He's obviously a very smart man who cares about the planet.

Thanks for encouraging me to look into your forum a bit more. It is indeed very helpful in proving my points.


----------



## Faster

smackdaddy said:


> Oh - this has got to hurt, Brent. One of your biggest sailing stars is going back to plastic after sailing your steeler for years?????
> 
> I guess he finally saw the light. He's obviously a very smart man who cares about the planet.
> 
> Thanks for encouraging me to look into your forum a bit more. It is indeed very helpful in proving my points.


But... But.... you mean he's prepared to risk hitting all that Fukishima debris at 17 knots in a flimsy GRP craft???


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## smackdaddy

Faster said:


> But... But.... you mean he's prepared to risk hitting all that Fukishima debris at 17 knots in a flimsy GRP craft???


It'll be interesting to see how much he gets for this boat. He started out at $73K and has come down to $63K from what I've seen. The resale value of this boat (the star in the BS lineup) will be very telling. I'm betting sub $50K (bummer for the owner Steve if that holds).

Even so, if someone really, really wants a BS boat - it makes MUCH more sense on EVERY level to buy a used one like the Silas than build a new one.


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## SloopJonB

I'm betting VERY sub-$50K. In the current local market I think he'd be doing very well to get $30K. Currently there are lots of good quality "fragile" glass boats over 40' - Frasers, Philbrooks etc. ASKING $40K or less. I know of a Reliance 44 that has been around, eastabout, that needs little more than stores to go again. This is a big, solid, fully outfitted offshore boat and they can't get $90K for it. There is a Seamaid 45 that has done the Pacific circuit, ASKING $85k.

These boats have all been on the market for quite a long time - years in some cases so I sure can't see a price in that range for a Brentboat, even the best known one.

P.S. Haida Gwaii on an F27? I don't think so! Maybe if they ferried it to the islands and day sailed up there. Even that though.... VERY wet & cold & stormy up there.


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## mitiempo

SloopJonB said:


> Haida Gwaii on an F27? I don't think so! Maybe if they ferried it to the islands and day sailed up there. Even that though.... VERY wet & cold & stormy up there.


Hecate Strait is not very wide - 30 miles at the northern end and 87 miles at the southern end. With a good weather window the crossing in an F-27 should be pretty quick. Hardly the boat I would choose though. The run from Van Island north is pretty protected for the most part with Queen Charlotte Sound being the biggest gap, Millebank Sound another. I would expect to power a lot unless offshore the whole way - a trip better suited to Silas Crosby.

But with Cape Horn experience maybe some think the rest is easy.


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## bobperry

Yeah, if he can get $38,500 for it he should be jubilent. This is not going to be an easy boat to sell.


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## casioqv

smackdaddy said:


> For the type of sailing 98% of us will ever do (e.g. - coastal, island hops, 3-5 day runs, etc.) - this approach is WAY overkill.
> 
> Calculate stresses on standing rigging? Seriously?


Well we have a difference of opinion, but certainly yours is more common. I tend to think things can go wrong anywhere, and any boat leaving the dock should be prepared for almost anything.

I'm the same with my cars as well- I inspect and maintain them on a schedule like an aircraft, and carry a full set of tools, factory repair documentation, and spare fluids as well as emergency food and water. This is always there, even if I'm just heading a few miles to get groceries.

I'm not paranoid or stressed about emergencies or disasters. In fact I'm an optimist, and don't expect to ever need to use this stuff. I just find it prudent and responsible to be prepared for the worst, while expecting and hoping for the best.

In general, I like to keep myself in a situation where I can enjoy and benefit from good times, while being harmed very little by unexpected negative events. This is very relaxing and enjoyable, and even when the worst does happen it causes little to no stress: instead I tend to think myself a bit lucky for finally getting to test out the skills I've learned and preparations I had made.


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## Stumble

Casioqv,

So at what point can you go to sea?

It takes a lifetime of working in any related field to really become an expert. And even building a boat from scratch doesn't begin to teach you everything there is to know about the marine environment. I know a guy with two PhDs in corrosion, one in galvanic corrosion, the other in acidic corrosion. Do I need to know as much as him to be a safe sailor?

Do I need to know as much as a machinist about working in metal, and a glass specialist, and a master rigger, and a master mechanic, and a plumber, and electrician, and a NA, and a marine engineer, and a marine biologist, and a MD, and a lawyer?

I certainly hope not, otherwise no one would ever go anywhere. You build reasonable experience for where you are and where you want to go, then act with reasonable prudence as you expand into new areas. Carrying emergency water may be a good idea if you live in rural Arizona, but it's a little silly when you live in down town New Orleans and I can walk to a resturant from anywhere along the route to the grocery store in about three minutes.


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## bobperry

That boat will be lucky to get $38,500. That's a child only a mother can love.

Stumble: You nailed. it. At what point do you get up off your couch and say, "I am now fully prepared!" It's a nice idea but I'm not sure it really exists.


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## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> That boat will be lucky to get $38,500. That's a child only a mother can love.
> 
> Stumble: You nailed. it. At what point do you get up off your couch and say, "I am now fully prepared!" It's a nice idea but I'm not sure it really exists.


I think it's sort of like having kids. No-one is ever really prepared for it nor can they afford it - you just have to say "let's do it" and do the best you can.

It nearly always works out.


----------



## casioqv

Stumble said:


> So at what point can you go to sea?


I'm not trying to preach about what anybody should be doing, just making an observation.

That's a pretty personal decision, and you're right- nobody could realistically know everything that they might need for some unforseen event. My point was in the context of talking about how people who build their own boats are likely to fare better than those who just buy a production boat, in a difficult situation (such as an offshore dismasting).

Ultimately, fear isn't a good reason to learn new skills. You'd have to be the sort of person interested in these skills anyway, who learns them for fun and/or as a career. Still, this is the sort of person I would prefer to have aboard when things go wrong offshore.



Stumble said:


> Carrying emergency water may be a good idea if you live in rural Arizona


Yea, I was talking about how I prepare for driving/living in the Southern California desert.


----------



## Brent Swain

mitiempo said:


> Hecate Strait is not very wide - 30 miles at the northern end and 87 miles at the southern end. With a good weather window the crossing in an F-27 should be pretty quick. Hardly the boat I would choose though. The run from Van Island north is pretty protected for the most part with Queen Charlotte Sound being the biggest gap, Millebank Sound another. I would expect to power a lot unless offshore the whole way - a trip better suited to Silas Crosby.
> 
> But with Cape Horn experience maybe some think the rest is easy.


I have sailed there many times, sometimes in glassy seas. Pick settled summer weather and you will have no problem. From Larsen Harbour it is only 50 miles. I have left Larsen Harbour at noon and still got into Haida Gwai in daylight.


----------



## casioqv

Brent Swain said:


> This is what I do on steel boats, probably an over kill for what you want to do, but it works.


Thanks Brent. Have you ever looked into moisture cured urethane as opposed to epoxy tar? I'm really confused about the relative merits of the two, but I've had good luck with urethane before on a cast iron keel.


----------



## Brent Swain

casioqv said:


> I'm not trying to preach about what anybody should be doing, just making an observation.
> 
> That's a pretty personal decision, and you're right- nobody could realistically know everything that they might need for some unforseen event. My point was in the context of talking about how people who build their own boats are likely to fare better than those who just buy a production boat, in a difficult situation (such as an offshore dismasting).
> 
> Ultimately, fear isn't a good reason to learn new skills. You'd have to be the sort of person interested in these skills anyway, who learns them for fun and/or as a career. Still, this is the sort of person I would prefer to have aboard when things go wrong offshore.
> 
> Yea, I was talking about how I prepare for driving/living in the Southern California desert.


Those who buy everything often get babysat by those who know how to do things. A guy I met on his third circumnavigation who told me "Ya they are sarcastic about my funky old boat , but when they need something, do they go to the fancy stock plastic boats? No way, they make a beeline to my funky old boat , because they know I probably have what they want, and I know how to do things." 
A friend said he met a family who had spent 70 days at sea, running out of food wand water, because they had a rigging failure. When he asked why they didn't even try to jury rig, the answer he got was "I'm not a rigger. I didn't have the fittings or know how to use them".
Yes there actually are people that dense and useless out there cruising!
Such stupidity almost killed his family. This is not something anyone who has built his own boat would have any problem with. By the time I have helped a client build a boat, he knows how to build almost every steel and wooden part in the boat, except the engine and electronics. Many have got a trade out of the project.


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## bobperry

Casio:
I think you are making a broad generalization. I have had clients of my production boats who have done circumnavigations (more than I can count) and tackled the problems as they came if they came. The fact they did not build the boat from scratch had no bearing at all. They knew their boat.


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## bobperry

Here we go again with moire BS making huge judgemental leaps about other people.
What a crock. What's next? The personal attacks. Why don;t you want to talk about design BS? "Oh no Bob, anything but talk about design."

Oh come on BS. Can't we discuss 175 degree LPS? or the mythical 182 degree LPS?

I think not. So here is your trophy for the evening.


----------



## Brent Swain

casioqv said:


> Thanks Brent. Have you ever looked into moisture cured urethane as opposed to epoxy tar? I'm really confused about the relative merits of the two, but I've had good luck with urethane before on a cast iron keel.


Wasser make excellent moisture cured Urethane, especially tar based Wasser Tar. A friend took a piece of steel, swished it in water, dipped it in Wasser Tar, then threw it in a bucket of water for a month. When he took it out after a month, it was extremely hard to scrape it off. Wasser needs no mixing, but will go off in the can if it has been exposed to air. You have to buy a lot of thinner, and thin it constantly while applying it. Most of my clients have switched to Wasser tar from epoxy tar, as it seems just as effective, and recoating it can be done any time, unlike epoxies. They also have some other excellent products, including a good cold galvanizing primer.


----------



## Brent Swain

Stumble said:


> Casioqv,
> 
> So at what point can you go to sea?
> 
> It takes a lifetime of working in any related field to really become an expert. And even building a boat from scratch doesn't begin to teach you everything there is to know about the marine environment. I know a guy with two PhDs in corrosion, one in galvanic corrosion, the other in acidic corrosion. Do I need to know as much as him to be a safe sailor?
> 
> Do I need to know as much as a machinist about working in metal, and a glass specialist, and a master rigger, and a master mechanic, and a plumber, and electrician, and a NA, and a marine engineer, and a marine biologist, and a MD, and a lawyer?
> 
> I certainly hope not, otherwise no one would ever go anywhere. You build reasonable experience for where you are and where you want to go, then act with reasonable prudence as you expand into new areas. Carrying emergency water may be a good idea if you live in rural Arizona, but it's a little silly when you live in down town New Orleans and I can walk to a resturant from anywhere along the route to the grocery store in about three minutes.


You only have to know what works and base your decisions on what has been proven over many years to have worked well, not on promotion. Some basic skills with tolls and problem solving as well as an ability to innovate and think out side the box, will do the trick.


----------



## casioqv

bobperry said:


> Casio:
> I think you are making a broad generalization.


Yes, I was intentionally making a broad generalization.

While there are many individual exceptions, the point is that this would be one method to make sure that you know your boat before heading offshore.


----------



## casioqv

Brent Swain said:


> Wasser make excellent moisture cured Urethane, especially tar based Wasser Tar


I'll look into the Wasser Tar... that sounds like exactly what I need! It looks like they also have a cold galvanizing pre-coat designed to work with the Wasser Tar (aka Wasser Zinc).


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> You were caught out with dishonesty repeatedly on BD net and driven off by (un)popular appeal, dishonesty seems to be your hallmark these days too and it's getting worse.
> 
> Do you really believe all your posts or are you aware that you are getting a name throughout the world as a spin artist never to be trusted?
> 
> No body ever attacked you ever for being part aboriginal. BD net is strictly moderated and nothing racist is tolerated. You are simply lying.
> 
> The coast guard were never attacked on BD net for supporting you. In fact you tried to imply that a safety check once by the coastguard amounted to vindication of your design. It was simply pointed out that a safety gear check is just that.
> 
> Lets come back to shape and stiffness since you have been trying to mock me with that.
> 
> It was your contention that shape adds stiffness and therefore no framing was/is necessary on your metal foldup boats. You suggested up to variously 50, 60 and even once 65 feet.
> 
> Now read this slowly &#8230;&#8230;I and others spent some time and effort trying to show you the different between tensile, shear and buckling strength. How a framed thin panel is in tension under load, and is much stronger than a shaped unframed thin panel and why, and how a sheet of steel or stiffener that's bent and fixed under a lot of stress buckles very easily from external loads. The last is a little harder to understand and it appears the whole lot went completely over your head.
> The corollary you took from this is that because I said you were misinformed I am therefore saying shape doesn't add stiffness ! That's fairly typical of your level of understanding of engineering.
> 
> As an illustration; why did your initial designs buckle and rotate their keels up into the boat on relatively gentle grounding for example?
> The answer is that the imagined strength from shape didn't exist and a pre stressed shaped panel has two stable states and the transition is known as 'snap through'.
> 
> The solution to this initial design flaw was to add 'framing' by using an inbuilt tank end to strengthen that area. Other parts of your boat designs still apparently damage easily from grounding. So what passes for a 36 footer will not pass for a 60 footer. I also offered to help you ( and consequently your future clients) to alter the design and put a small amount of material in a few strategic places to improve the design considerably. Your response was complete disinterest and a spate of very ignorant attacks on the process of load based design.
> 
> I think a lot of this bluster is because you are completely compromised by your past, misinformed advice, posts and publications. Now you are too entrenched in a stinking mire. So you throw lots of mud. But seems everyone is on to you here too.
> 
> But lets come back to the fact that if you can't link to anything it's just a complete fabrication. As I gave examples above.


More disinformation from Mike! A boat hitting a rock in Boat Passage at 12 knots is not a gentle grounding. Nor is the 16 days of pounding on a Baja lee shore in big surf, by he first 36 I built,, which a friend posted pictures of on that site, which she survived with minimal damage. Mike (the "Engineer") still claims that boat was not strong enough.The boat he mentions was a 40 footer, in a grounding which would have torn the bottom out of any plastic boat. The owner was grateful of the boat he was in, and still loves her.The boat was built far under strength of what the design specified. They used 4x1/2 inch flat bar instead of 3x3x1/2 inch angles I specified , across the bilge keels . They omitted the water tank across the centreline, which adds a huge amount of strength to the keel support. 1 inch by 1 inch by 1/4 inch angles don't buckle easily. They never have on any of my designs, including in severe torture tests, on coral reefs in big seas, which no plastic boat could ever survive for more than a few minutes.
I have never advocated frameless origami 65 footers.

In the heat of the debate, fitter welder Mike pointed out that I am of aboriginal decent. For what other purpose was that pointed out and allowed to stand uncensored, other than to incur racism. At that point, Wynand Nortje ,an apartheid era South African of Dutch descent declared himself to be a racist, and proud of it .Mikes purpose in pointing out my race was fulfilled . When I mentioned the strength of longitudinals inside a steel hull you pressed on a spline and declared that a longitudinal contained in a steel shell would behave exactly the same as a spline in the open.


----------



## PCP

casioqv said:


> Well we have a difference of opinion, but certainly yours is more common. I tend to think things can go wrong anywhere, and any boat leaving the dock should be prepared for almost anything.
> 
> ....


The best you can do about that is to sail a recent boat or a having a new car. Statistically they have less breakage than an older one. You cannot be prepared for everything or have spars for all things so in the end what it counts is your resourcefulness and creativity. Portuguese are quite good at that, that is so common around here that we even have a word for it that you cannot translate in any other language: "deserascar"

Seriously, if you think that a home made boat made by an amateur that never had made a boat before is more reliable than a production boat that has been made in hundreds of copies (whose eventual defects have been erased after the first dozens) and count with the accumulated experienced of a shipyard that has produced thousands of boats with similar characteristics and materials for many years, you are wrong.

I have a friend that has a steel boat made by himself. It looks like a true voyage boat , with windvane, solar panels, wind generator, two anchors on a double bow rudder, an adapted Mercedes engine and all the good and expensive materials. The boat costed him a fortune and he says very nasty things about plastic production boats.

We are both retired and eventually planned in sailing together next year. My boat is in Italy his was in Portugal and the plan was for him to sail his boat this summer to Italy, and eventually to cruise in Sardinia, for next year to sail with me in Greece.

He did not manage to go further than Valencia on the coast of Spain.

While I arrived at Rome, rigged my boat in a week and sail away to cruise more than 2000nm without any problem he took more than a month "preparing" his boat and then while cruising he had a problem with the refrigeration of the engine and had to call for help. Later he had a problem with the water tanks and had the boat flooded....he had more problems but I do cannot remember all. Anyway that is the main reason why he does not have made further than Valencia (where he leaved the boat for the winter)and that in two months of sailing. That and the boat being heavy and slow.

When I had my previous 36ft mass production boat I had done several times, in one and a half months, all the way to the Balearic Islands and back to Portugal and still had time to cruise slowly for three weeks on the Islands. Never had a problem that I could not desenrascar and always have done what I had planned.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> In the heat of the debate, fitter welder Mike pointed out that I am of aboriginal decent. For what other purpose was that pointed out and allowed to stand uncensored, other than to incur racism. At that point, Wynand Nortje ,an apartheid era South African of Dutch descent declared himself to be a racist, and proud of it .Mikes purpose in pointing out my race was fulfilled .


Well, after having gone through BS' origami site - and finding nothing to lend the man any real credibility, I took a look for this "racist" dustup Brent keeps on tooting about over at BDnet. Though it's a very long thread, it is absolutely worth looking at. It shows precisely who Brent Swain is (just as we've seen him here). Here's where that dustup seems to start:

Origami steel yacht construction - Page 45 - Boat Design Forums

...and as it ramps up, here are a couple of Brent's shots across the bow of Wynand:



> Originally Posted by Brent Swain:
> Wynand, how much of your clients money have you wasted having calculations done by someone with such a mental disorder? You say calculations made by someone with a mental disorder are valuable. I and most of my clients would disagree.


...then this pretty vile insinuation...



> Originally Posted by Brent Swain:
> I pointed out how if you take away the cost of steel welding rods cutting materials paint , etc *you have the aparthied wages Wynand paid his crew*.
> I also pointed out that the Van de Stadt 34 is an origami boat.


Brent is clearly implying that Wynand is a racist - or at least pays his employees a race-based wage. Then Wynand explodes with this post:

Origami steel yacht construction - Page 56 - Boat Design Forums

Whole page here:

Origami steel yacht construction - Page 56 - Boat Design Forums

Now, you can read Wynan's post yourself. I did, and what I see is sarcasm directed at Brent's racist accusation (complete with emoticons). It's not a very PC post, that I'll grant. But I certainly don't see where Wynand is saying what Brent is now throwing around. I just don't think Brent really understands what he reads.

Then I found the "aboriginal" quote as well:



> Originally Posted by welder/fitter:
> Lol
> Yeah, Troy, but you're forgetting or don't know that Brent is First Nations(aboriginal), therefore fully aware of Canada's past. He's just taking a cheap shot at Wynand because he knows he can't build boats as well as him. A sad display of envy on Brent's behalf. I, on the other hand, am calling you out; pistols at dawn!
> Mike


Yet again, Brent doesn't do a very good job of reading and comprehending (it is sarcasm after all). He seems to only know how to insult and inflame.



> Wynand Nortje ,an apartheid era South African of Dutch descent declared himself to be a racist, and proud of it .Mikes purpose in pointing out my race was fulfilled .


Only in your mind Brent.

I would highly recommend ANYONE considering a BS boat take the time to read through that thread. It is absolutely revealing - with nuggets like this:

Origami steel yacht construction - Page 27 - Boat Design Forums

The bottom line is that Brent is Brent. He just can't be anything else. Which is sad.

Bob, you shouldn't waste your time with him. If you look through that thread you'll see exactly what I mean. It's not worth the effort. His only means of promotion is to relentlessly attack people who are talented, knowledgable, and skilled craftsmen.

A pitiful piece of work that guy.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent - after the research I've now done on you and your claims, I'm not going to go 'round with you anymore. At one point I felt that "cruising wannabes" like this thread's OP needed to know "the truth" about you and your claims. However, if that "cruising wannabe" makes even a modest effort to do some research on you within this thread and the one on *BDnet* - they'll see all they need to see. And it is my firm belief that they'll have no desire whatsoever to build one of your boats.

I wish you the best Brent. I hope you find some kind of happiness and peace some day.


----------



## casioqv

PCP said:


> The best you can do about that is to sail a recent boat or a having a new car. Statistically they have less breakage than an older one.


This is only a consequence of a philosophy of disposability... people don't maintain their stuff and it deteriorates until they replace it. If a machine is inspected and maintained rigorously, it will be least reliable during an initial testing phase when assembly mistakes show up, and then have a steady higher level of reliability after that.

Commercial aircraft are a good example of this: they maintain nearly 100% reliability for a very long service life, and go through extensive testing at the beginning to uncover any flaws. Cars and boats also work this way when maintained in the same manner... most people never get to experience this because they have never owned something maintained properly. Vehicle statistics in the general population definitely won't reflect this!

I drive a 1984 Volvo 760 diesel with almost 400k miles and regularly take it on long road trips in remote places. I absolutely never have an unexpected mechanical failure on this vehicle: it's very simple, I know it like the back of my hand, and I inspect and replace every part long before it fails. There isn't a single moving part in the car I haven't torn apart and inspected multiple times. I know how fast each part wears, and where in the wear cycle they currently are.

There isn't a single system that doesn't work at least as well as when it came off the dealer lot. It continues to get even more reliable with age as I've engineered upgrades to preemptively prevent design flaw related failures others have had in the same model car. For example the front crossmember, oil cooler, and engine wiring harness were all of defective design when the vehicle was new and have been upgraded preemptively. This can't be done with a new vehicle, because this knowledge wouldn't exist yet.


----------



## casioqv

PCP said:


> While I arrived at Rome, rigged my boat in a week and sail away to cruise more than 2000nm without any problem he took more than a month "preparing" his boat


It sounds like your friend needs to learn about the value of simplicity. IF he had built a simple boat without so many unnecessary systems, he wouldn't have so much to repair and maintain. Refrigeration is a joke on a boat. Tell him to read the Pardey's book "The Care and Feeding of the Offshore Crew" which shows how to provision for long cruises without refrigeration while eating very well.


----------



## Stumble

casioqv said:


> It sounds like your friend needs to learn about the value of simplicity. IF he had built a simple boat without so many unnecessary systems, he wouldn't have so much to repair and maintain. Refrigeration is a joke on a boat. Tell him to read the Pardey's book "The Care and Feeding of the Offshore Crew" which shows how to provision for long cruises without refrigeration while eating very well.


We spent ten years in the islands with a refrigerator and a freezer and an ice maker. How in gods name would we have been better off without them?

Is it possible? Sure, but so is becoming celibate but I am not planning on that either.

Frankly this idea of 'unnecessary systems' is an aberration to me. I like cold drinks, I like cold milk, I like ice cream, and modern systems make all this possible anywhere in the world at an affordable price. What possible reason is there to not have them, other than some weird purist notion of cruising.

Do you have a refrigerator at home? If so why wouldn't you have one one your boat. In both cases they are luxuries that could have been done without.


----------



## aeventyr60

bobperry said:


> Casio:
> I think you are making a broad generalization. I have had clients of my production boats who have done circumnavigations (more than I can count) and tackled the problems as they came if they came. The fact they did not build the boat from scratch had no bearing at all. They knew their boat.


I let Bob Perry worry about the stress's, engineering and design features. I just get to enjoy the result. Didn't need to be an expert in any arcane science either. Problem solving skills developed by being out on the water. Mostly small stuff anyway.

Maybe that Fukushima Band could use some steel drums?


----------



## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> More disinformation from Mike! A boat hitting a rock in Boat Passage at 15 knots is not a gentle grounding. It was a 40 footer, in a grounding which would have torn the bottom out of any plastic boat. The owner was grateful of the boat he was in, and still loves her.The boat was built far under strength of what the design specified. They used 4x1/2 inch flat bar instead of 3x3x1/2 inch angles I specified , across the bilge keels . They omitted the water tank across the centreline, which adds a huge amount of strength to the keel support. 1 inch by 1 inch by 1/4 inch angles don't buckle easily. They never have on any of my designs, including in severe torture tests, on coral reefs in big seas, which no plastic boat could ever survive for more than a few minutes.
> I have never advocated frameless origami 65 footers.........


Well it was from your own words so I'm not sure where the charge of disinformation comes from.

by Brent Swain: "_Given the tendency for the trailing edges of the twin keels to be driven up into the boat when they collide with a rock, and the fact that they are far enough back to be under the pilothouse floor in the 36, putting a 3/16th plate web across them would reinforce them without being in the way of anything. The top of this web could be T'd with a piece of ½ inch by 4 inch flatbar, making it extremely strong._"

You admitted that was your older design and that it needed improving which you did. I was using that to illustrate that your intuitive grasp of shaped based strength was wrong , that stiffness and buckling strength are not the same thing at all.

Here's your own post talking of scaling your frameless foldup:

by Brent Swain "_My 26 is ten gauge hull plate, my 31, 36 and 40 are all 3/16th. I only suggested 3/8th for a 60 footer_. "

You talked of another 65 footer once that you had some involvement with. But whether 60 or 65 the point is that the effort was made to show you that you cannot scale your frameless design to even close to 50 feet, the total length doesn't matter.


----------



## casioqv

Stumble said:


> Frankly this idea of 'unnecessary systems' is an aberration to me.


I'm glad refrigeration works for you, and I certainly wouldn't turn down a cold beer in the anchorage if you offered me one.

If you're really interested here's why I don't _personally_ want a fridge on my boat: In a remote place I don't want to go without food if the fridge breaks. So that means *if* I bring a fridge, I need to also need to bring enough backup food that doesn't need a fridge.

It just seems like less hassle to learn how to provision without refrigeration, and be done with it. It's been kinda fun, my wife and I have enjoyed learning to provision for voyages and camping trips without using refrigeration. We do have a fridge at home, but some of the stuff we've learned has let us rely on it less. For example, we now know how to store eggs and vegetables long term without using a fridge so we have more space in the fridge at home and can go shopping less often.

I'll also admit to reading a bit of Seneca the Younger, Thoreau, and even Jay Fitzgerald. There's some interesting ideas in those books, and it's pretty pleasurable to get a chance to put them into practice (even if ironically, some of those authors may not have).


----------



## mitiempo

casioqv said:


> I drive a 1984 Volvo 760 diesel with almost 400k miles and regularly take it on long road trips in remote places. I absolutely never have an unexpected mechanical failure on this vehicle: it's very simple, I know it like the back of my hand, and I inspect and replace every part long before it fails. There isn't a single moving part in the car I haven't torn apart and inspected multiple times. I know how fast each part wears, and where in the wear cycle they currently are.


Refrigeration on a boat is much easier to maintain (and carry spare parts for) than an old Volvo!


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## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> .........fitter welder Mike pointed out that I am of aboriginal decent. For what other purpose was that pointed out and allowed to stand uncensored, other than to incur racism. At that point, Wynand Nortje ,an apartheid era South African of Dutch descent declared himself to be a racist, and proud of it .Mikes purpose in pointing out my race was fulfilled . When I mentioned the strength of longitudinals inside a steel hull you pressed on a spline and declared that a longitudinal contained in a steel shell would behave exactly the same as a spline in the open.


You are way off on both of these claims.

Wynand as a very professional boilermaker/welder and steel boat builder summarized quite correctly that you were something akin to a backyard butcher when it came to designing and building boats. So in response you resorted to a hatchet job on him. Your usual technique of making something up. In this case racism. As I said before it's so dumb to lie on record about events on record.So now you are exposed again, this time on this forum as a very creative liar.

The longitudinals you talk of; I'd be very surprised if you don't really remember what that was about!
It was your claim of incredible unusual strength not shown by structural analysis since they were always in compression ! So I showed you how stress reversal occurs under load and how readily it occurs in pre stressed components ie the longitudinals. Are you now saying that went over your head too in which case you are a poor learner. Or is it more a case of it disagrees with your book and therefore has to be denied and warped into something you can disregard? Do you want me to go through it again?

Anyway you didn't leave BD net due to racist attacks or attacks on frameless boats or the coastguard or any other such nonsense. Rather because of the direct result of your own dishonesty, vitriol and the backlash from your own creative personal attacks. You were also exposed clearly as a fraud there.

No one is ever going to believe anything you say without checking it very well first. You are so stupid to continually and unnecessarily lie. If you lie so brazenly about things which can be easily checked then what about the events that are more obscure and already second hand like your marketing hype ?


----------



## PCP

casioqv said:


> This is only a consequence of a philosophy of disposability... people don't maintain their stuff and it deteriorates until they replace it. If a machine is inspected and maintained rigorously, it will be least reliable during an initial testing phase when assembly mistakes show up, and then have a steady higher level of reliability after that.
> 
> Commercial aircraft are a good example of this: they maintain nearly 100% reliability for a very long service life, and go through extensive testing at the beginning to uncover any flaws. Cars and boats also work this way when maintained in the same manner... most people never get to experience this because they have never owned something maintained properly. Vehicle statistics in the general population definitely won't reflect this!
> 
> I drive a 1984 Volvo 760 diesel with almost 400k miles and regularly take it on long road trips in remote places. I absolutely never have an unexpected mechanical failure on this vehicle: it's very simple, I know it like the back of my hand, and I inspect and replace every part long before it fails. There isn't a single moving part in the car I haven't torn apart and inspected multiple times. I know how fast each part wears, and where in the wear cycle they currently are.
> 
> There isn't a single system that doesn't work at least as well as when it came off the dealer lot. It continues to get even more reliable with age ...


That's not what statistics say and they are highly reliable. For most of my live I had cars with less than 5 years I don't remember of any having a serious problem and maintenance was just a minimum (I had some old cars too that had give me a lot of problems and cost me a lot of money in repairs). The same regarding boats, but with less than 10 years old and the same thing. Never had any significant problem or costly maintenance. The biggest issue ever was a refrigerator thermostat Made more than 20 000 nm on the last one.

Regarding maintenance of cars and boats, I like to sail and drive, not doing boat or car maintenance. If you pay to someone to do that the way you purpose it will be very expensive, so expensive that for most is just easier and less expensive to have a new car or boat.

Most use old cars and boats not with the kind of maintenance you talk about at a cost of a much lesser reliability waiting for something to broke before replacing it and there is always a lot of thing breaking. That's why *"Vehicle statistics in the general population definitely won't reflect this!" you seem to be an exception*

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

Why are we talking about racism and carbon footprints here? What idiot would introduce those subjects into a discussion on yacht design and building?


----------



## PCP

casioqv said:


> It sounds like your friend needs to learn about the value of simplicity. IF he had built a simple boat without so many unnecessary systems, he wouldn't have so much to repair and maintain. Refrigeration is a joke on a boat. Tell him to read the Pardey's book "The Care and Feeding of the Offshore Crew" which shows how to provision for long cruises without refrigeration while eating very well.


Really? I guess you have misunderstood me, I said "*refrigeration of the engine*", it had nothing to do with the refrigerator bit with the boat engine. The replacing of the tubing was done by a reputable shipyard (the engine needed to be opened and repaired) that even so seems not to be as good in the job as a boat manufacturer. Some of the tubes they had installed could not take the temperature and one melted away.

Or are you suggesting that he should have simplified his boat to the point of not having an engine?

Regarding a refrigerator I agree that it is not necessary as any other system in a boat, except sails. In fact I cruised the coast of Portugal with a sailboat with a bare hull and not always with an engine. You can also live in a house without water, electricity or WC. Maybe that's the case. It is all a matter of comfort.

Regarding the refrigerator on a boat I like my beer, white wine and water cool. My wife likes to have butter in other form than liquid and puts in the freezer a lot of things from Yogurt to cheese and all kind of delicatessen. I like all that stuff and life would not be so good without a refrigerator and that's why we have one. In fact we have two but only use one for not wasting much energy.



casioqv said:


> ...
> If you're really interested here's why I don't _personally_ want a fridge on my boat: In a remote place I don't want to go without food if the fridge breaks. So that means *if* I bring a fridge, I need to also need to bring enough backup food that doesn't need a fridge.
> ...


Do you really sail on remote places with your boat all the time? An even if you do that once or twice do you sail on remote places most of the time? If you do that, like in what regards car maintenance you are really an exception.

If you sail on remote places just one or two times with your sailing boat you can use the fridge most of the time and just not use it the few times you sail on remote places.

Even so the ones I knew that sail on remote places use a freezer and like on my boat they have more than one. It will be really a very unusual thing to have two refrigerators malfunctioning, specially if they are new.

By the way, in what remote places you sail in your boat?

Paulo


----------



## Stumble

casioqv said:


> I'm glad refrigeration works for you, and I certainly wouldn't turn down a cold beer in the anchorage if you offered me one.
> 
> If you're really interested here's why I don't _personally_ want a fridge on my boat: In a remote place I don't want to go without food if the fridge breaks. So that means *if* I bring a fridge, I need to also need to bring enough backup food that doesn't need a fridge.
> 
> It just seems like less hassle to learn how to provision without refrigeration, and be done with it. It's been kinda fun, my wife and I have enjoyed learning to provision for voyages and camping trips without using refrigeration. We do have a fridge at home, but some of the stuff we've learned has let us rely on it less. For example, we now know how to store eggs and vegetables long term without using a fridge so we have more space in the fridge at home and can go shopping less often.
> 
> I'll also admit to reading a bit of Seneca the Younger, Thoreau, and even Jay Fitzgerald. There's some interesting ideas in those books, and it's pretty pleasurable to get a chance to put them into practice (even if ironically, some of those authors may not have).


We provisioned both ways. We had all the frozen/refrigerated stuff plus all the stores to do without. But that doesn't mean we didn't enjoy cold beer as available.

At the time people also laughed at our water maker as a unnecessary luxury, but I remember trading 50 gallons of fresh water for 10lbs of fresh caught grouper while we were anchored out in Las Aves. We were able to stay anchored off, without seeing civilization for four months, and really only had to come back because we ran out of beer. While a string of more 'traditional' boats kept rotating back to land. Usually they would run out of water, some fresh food, others time.

We had all the modern luxuries that people like you laugh at, but they all worked fine and we stayed until we ran out of diesel...

Onboard systems...

1) generator
2) 3 * AC - run every night
3) dive compressor
4) refrig & seperate freezer
5) water maker
6) sat tv
7) Nintendo (nothing like playing video games in the middle of nowhere)
8) ice cream maker

But we also carried 500 gallons of diesel and 450 of water. So we could run the generator every night to cool off the boat, and take real showers.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> More disinformation from Mike! A boat hitting a rock in Boat Passage at 15 knots is not a gentle grounding. It was a 40 footer


A 40' steel boat doing 15 knots? Where can I get one of those?


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## bobperry

Come on Jon. That's 5 knots with a 10 knot tidal current. Do the math!

Stumbles:
You must be talking about a very big boat.


----------



## Faster

Stumble said:


> We provisioned both ways. We had all the frozen/refrigerated stuff plus all the stores to do without. But that doesn't mean we didn't enjoy cold beer as available.
> 
> At the time people also laughed at our water maker as a unnecessary luxury, but I remember trading 50 gallons of fresh water for 10lbs of fresh caught grouper while we were anchored out in Las Aves. We were able to stay anchored off, without seeing civilization for four months, and really only had to come back because we ran out of beer. While a string of more 'traditional' boats kept rotating back to land. Usually they would run out of water, some fresh food, others time.
> 
> We had all the modern luxuries that people like you laugh at, but they all worked fine and we stayed until we ran out of diesel...
> 
> Onboard systems...
> 
> 1) generator
> 2) 3 * AC - run every night
> 3) dive compressor
> 4) refrig & seperate freezer
> 5) water maker
> 6) sat tv
> 7) Nintendo (nothing like playing video games in the middle of nowhere)
> 8) ice cream maker
> 
> But we also carried 500 gallons of diesel and 450 of water. So we could run the generator every night to cool off the boat, and take real showers.


Utter, shameful decadance!


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## SloopJonB

I thought of that but I checked - Boat passage peaks at less than 6 so that's still a hell of a fast steel 40'.

Full throttle, with a max flow, onto the rocks? Maybe.

Actually, now that I think back on this thread, that seems to be the Karma, or even the purpose of Brentboats.


----------



## PCP

SloopJonB said:


> A 40' steel boat doing 15 knots? Where can I get one of those?


Don't be like that You can easily have a steel sailing boat doing 15k and even more. You can order one of these to several boat designers, Hoeck for instance.

http://www.hoekdesign.com/home/boten/tc/ship-popup.asp?ID_Image=957&Control=2

Regards

Paulo


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## Stumble

bobperry said:


> Come on Jon. That's 5 knots with a 10 knot tidal current. Do the math!
> 
> Stumbles:
> You must be talking about a very big boat.


An Irwin 54' with an additional fuel tank installed. Certainly big, but not a monster. Not fast, or high performance, but wonderful to live on. I learned a lot growing up on her.


----------



## Brent Swain

PCP said:


> The best you can do about that is to sail a recent boat or a having a new car. Statistically they have less breakage than an older one. You cannot be prepared for everything or have spars for all things so in the end what it counts is your resourcefulness and creativity. Portuguese are quite good at that, that is so common around here that we even have a word for it that you cannot translate in any other language: "deserascar"
> 
> Seriously, if you think that a home made boat made by an amateur that never had made a boat before is more reliable than a production boat that has been made in hundreds of copies (whose eventual defects have been erased after the first dozens) and count with the accumulated experienced of a shipyard that has produced thousands of boats with similar characteristics and materials for many years, you are wrong.
> 
> I have a friend that has a steel boat made by himself. It looks like a true voyage boat , with windvane, solar panels, wind generator, two anchors on a double bow rudder, an adapted Mercedes engine and all the good and expensive materials. The boat costed him a fortune and he says very nasty things about plastic production boats.
> 
> We are both retired and eventually planned in sailing together next year. My boat is in Italy his was in Portugal and the plan was for him to sail his boat this summer to Italy, and eventually to cruise in Sardinia, for next year to sail with me in Greece.
> 
> He did not manage to go further than Valencia on the coast of Spain.
> 
> While I arrived at Rome, rigged my boat in a week and sail away to cruise more than 2000nm without any problem he took more than a month "preparing" his boat and then while cruising he had a problem with the refrigeration of the engine and had to call for help. Later he had a problem with the water tanks and had the boat flooded....he had more problems but I do cannot remember all. Anyway that is the main reason why he does not have made further than Valencia (where he leaved the boat for the winter)and that in two months of sailing. That and the boat being heavy and slow.
> 
> When I had my previous 36ft mass production boat I had done several times, in one and a half months, all the way to the Balearic Islands and back to Portugal and still had time to cruise slowly for three weeks on the Islands. Never had a problem that I could not desenrascar and always have done what I had planned.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


A friend has a Sparkman and Stephens designed Hughs 31 which was mass produced . The tumble home on one side of the cabin is roughly 2 1/2 inches more that on the other side. Find one and check it out. That is typical of mass produced boats. 
I met an old couple in Hilo who had crossed for mexico intheir brand new CT 41.They said itr saield fast but leaked like a sieve. What they had assumed was fibrglass was plywood and putty. Bob, did you design that one?
Anothe guy I met in San Quentin Mexico, who had draged in a hurricane there and was repairing the dammage said his mass produced boat was advertied as having 900 galons of fuel capacity. Instead she had about35 gallons of fuel capacity.
Mass produced means having a huge stake in saving a few ounces or an hour or two of labour anywhere, mutiplied by many boats, so they can to stay in business, something which is of little concern to a home builder. 
Most home built boats are far better put together , even by first time builders, than most mass produced boats, for this reason. Anyone with a stock, mass produced boat who wants to test this out can tie their mooring gear to a home made one of my designs , built by a farmer wiht zero previous boat buildig experince , give her full throttle, with a large amount of slack in the mooring lines and see who's mooring bits pull out first, when the line snaps tight.

I believe the reason your friend's boat took so long and cost so much is because he didn't follow the directions in my book and plans , but got his advice from those trying to sell him expensive gear and materials. I wrote the book to help people avoid those pitfalls.
I rember back in the 80's building a boat for a couple who workred in an office doing gfovernment computer work. When I walked in in my work clothes the couple's boss took one look a me and took them into his office, and asked them "Is that your boat desgnber and builder?" they said "Yes." He said "I think you should shop around a bit more. " I built them a shell for a 31. He bought a new stock plastic boat. The sailed to California then down to Mexico and points south, thru the caribean to Halifax, back to the caribean for the winter, then over to England. After sevral years of this, they went back to Vancouver for a vist to find their boss stil working to pay for his boat ( and for having followed his own advice)


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Casio:
> I think you are making a broad generalization. I have had clients of my production boats who have done circumnavigations (more than I can count) and tackled the problems as they came if they came. The fact they did not build the boat from scratch had no bearing at all. They knew their boat.


Thos with a background in working with tools and building stuff, will have no problem. Those who have never worked with tools and who have only shuffled papes for a living and bought everything they ever owned can get in a lot of trouble at sea.


----------



## casioqv

PCP said:


> Really? I guess you have misunderstood me, I said "*refrigeration of the engine*",


Just a miscommunication, I've never heard of the word "refrigeration" used to refer to the engine cooling system, but only systems for keeping food or crew cold.

I do personally prefer to not have an engine on my boat as well. For me, simplicity is how I avoid wasting much of my time fixing stuff. The old Volvo for example doesn't require a lot of work to keep going because it's so simple. I like to joke that the entire car has half the parts of the HVAC system on a modern luxury car.

Statistics are only reliable when applied correctly, in the correct context. For example if you don't have statistics specifically on people maintaining 80s european cars as if they were commercial aircraft, you don't have any information on how reliable this would be.



PCP said:


> If you sail on remote places just one or two times with your sailing boat you can use the fridge most of the time and just not use it the few times you sail on remote places.


Yea, I agree that the value of simplicity is more pronounced if you rely on your systems for survival vs just comfort. A boat going to more remote places needs to be more reliable, and therefore should be simpler.

Same thing with camping- a person staying in public campgrounds near civilization can have a big luxurious RV. A person crossing thousands of miles of wilderness would be better to go on foot, and bring mostly knowledge and just a few pounds of gear. Ultralight minimalist backpacking in a campground would be just as ridiculous as trying to cross thousands of miles of road free wilderness in a motorhome.


----------



## Brent Swain

casioqv said:


> This is only a consequence of a philosophy of disposability... people don't maintain their stuff and it deteriorates until they replace it. If a machine is inspected and maintained rigorously, it will be least reliable during an initial testing phase when assembly mistakes show up, and then have a steady higher level of reliability after that.
> 
> Commercial aircraft are a good example of this: they maintain nearly 100% reliability for a very long service life, and go through extensive testing at the beginning to uncover any flaws. Cars and boats also work this way when maintained in the same manner... most people never get to experience this because they have never owned something maintained properly. Vehicle statistics in the general population definitely won't reflect this!
> 
> I drive a 1984 Volvo 760 diesel with almost 400k miles and regularly take it on long road trips in remote places. I absolutely never have an unexpected mechanical failure on this vehicle: it's very simple, I know it like the back of my hand, and I inspect and replace every part long before it fails. There isn't a single moving part in the car I haven't torn apart and inspected multiple times. I know how fast each part wears, and where in the wear cycle they currently are.
> 
> There isn't a single system that doesn't work at least as well as when it came off the dealer lot. It continues to get even more reliable with age as I've engineered upgrades to preemptively prevent design flaw related failures others have had in the same model car. For example the front crossmember, oil cooler, and engine wiring harness were all of defective design when the vehicle was new and have been upgraded preemptively. This can't be done with a new vehicle, because this knowledge wouldn't exist yet.


My brother, once one of th etop high performanc race car mechanics told me that most of what wears out in a car engine is replaceable, so theoretically the engine couldbe run for a very long time, far longer than is normally done.


----------



## Brent Swain

casioqv said:


> It sounds like your friend needs to learn about the value of simplicity. IF he had built a simple boat without so many unnecessary systems, he wouldn't have so much to repair and maintain. Refrigeration is a joke on a boat. Tell him to read the Pardey's book "The Care and Feeding of the Offshore Crew" which shows how to provision for long cruises without refrigeration while eating very well.


When I started cruising in my boat, she had no electrical system . That was only added years later. I have heard of some spending two years and thousands of dollars on an electrical system. I advise peopel to put in some conduit, running the length of the boat at the hull deck joint ,put in some kerosene lamps and get the hell out cruising
Then they can add whatever they find they need, in some quiet, peaceful anchorage.
What kind of electrical system did Slocum or Hiscock have? Surely they couldnt have gone anywhere without one , could they?


----------



## casioqv

Brent Swain said:


> My brother, once one of th etop high performanc race car mechanics told me that most of what wears out in a car engine is replaceable, so theoretically the engine couldbe run for a very long time, far longer than is normally done.


Absolutely, look at Irv Gordon- his 1966 Volvo has 3 million miles and is still in like new condition.

Statistics from Consumer Reports show that the average life span of a new vehicle is 150,000 miles, so Irv is already at 20 times that and yet his vehicle isn't just chugging along, but is still literally like new. Like many old sailing ships, this could be maintained indefinitely but eventually there would be no original parts left.

Is Irv's car unreliable because it's no longer new? Heck no, he'll probably not have a single breakdown between now and when 70% of the new cars coming off the lot today are recycled as scrap metal. This is in part because his vehicle is so simple- it may not be possible to get this sort of reliability out of a newer more complex car, at any price.


----------



## Brent Swain

Stumble said:


> We spent ten years in the islands with a refrigerator and a freezer and an ice maker. How in gods name would we have been better off without them?
> 
> Is it possible? Sure, but so is becoming celibate but I am not planning on that either.
> 
> Frankly this idea of 'unnecessary systems' is an aberration to me. I like cold drinks, I like cold milk, I like ice cream, and modern systems make all this possible anywhere in the world at an affordable price. What possible reason is there to not have them, other than some weird purist notion of cruising.
> 
> Do you have a refrigerator at home? If so why wouldn't you have one one your boat. In both cases they are luxuries that could have been done without.


I once lived in a housekeeping room which had a fridge. Used it once in many years . Had an ice box in my last boat. Used it once in 10 years . A guy named Gray who wrote for Pacific yachting wrote an article about a guy in Mexico trying to get his fridge fixed. The last line in the article was ';All told he spent enough to buy 30 tons of ice."
Firdge is just the tip of the iceberg in that kind of thinking. Given the choice between toys and cruising timeI prefer cruising time and fredom .That is why I spend so much time cruising and toy worshippers spend so much time working while tied to the dock, or boatyard.
Toy worshipers usually dont make the connection between toys and lack of cruising time freedom.


----------



## AlaskaMC

Brent Swain said:


> I have heard of some spending two years and thousands of dollars on an electrical system


I had a whole response to this typed out when I realized that I am just turning into Don Quixote fighting windmills. Boats take forever to build and then just a few hours, it just isn't worth the time.


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> Well it was from your own words so I'm not sure where the charge of disinformation comes from.
> 
> by Brent Swain: "_Given the tendency for the trailing edges of the twin keels to be driven up into the boat when they collide with a rock, and the fact that they are far enough back to be under the pilothouse floor in the 36, putting a 3/16th plate web across them would reinforce them without being in the way of anything. The top of this web could be T'd with a piece of ½ inch by 4 inch flatbar, making it extremely strong._"
> 
> You admitted that was your older design and that it needed improving which you did. I was using that to illustrate that your intuitive grasp of shaped based strength was wrong , that stiffness and buckling strength are not the same thing at all.
> 
> Here's your own post talking of scaling your frameless foldup:
> 
> by Brent Swain "_My 26 is ten gauge hull plate, my 31, 36 and 40 are all 3/16th. I only suggested 3/8th for a 60 footer_. "
> 
> You talked of another 65 footer once that you had some involvement with. But whether 60 or 65 the point is that the effort was made to show you that you cannot scale your frameless design to even close to 50 feet, the total length doesn't matter.


I had drawn the tank and specified the angle iron webs in that design by that time in the plans I sold them, which they ignored. The tops of the low aspect ratio keels on my 36 are 8 ft long. I have since seen them on that site , swooning over twin keelers which have about a foot of attachement to the hull, with a far higher aspect ratio.
How do you get a foot of attachement to a plastic hull ,with a far higher aspect ratio keel, to be stronger than 8 ft of attachement to a steel hull with a far lower aspect ratio keel?
You dont!( Mike the "Engineer?")
No Mike, with a track record like that ,I wouldn't want you "Engineering" any of my boats, any more that I would let a civil "engineer " do laser surgery on my eyes.

A friend posted several pictures of a couple of very successful origami 55 footers in aluminium on that site. One I last saw at Christmas Island after which he sailed back to BC in November. Jean Marc, the owner, has cruised enough miles in the Hecate straight area, year round to have done a circumnavigation, wiht zero structural problems .He loves sailing in full storms. Harvey , on the other origami 55 footer, cruises the west coast of Vancouver Island year round .
Completely demolishes your theory about them not being strong enough.
Here are some quotes from a letter Steve on Silas Crosby sent me from the Straits of Magellan 
"I thought you should know that Silas Crosby is amoung the smaller boats sailing around , but it seems to cause us less worry that most boats down here .
The ability to get in very shallow and even dry out , or just touch at low tide, is a quality that most people, even here , do not have a clue about.
While avoiding ice chunks near the Pia Glacier, I hit a rock dead on at 3 knots . A shrug and carried on. Thanks for your helping me get here . Good boat, good design."
This completely demolishes Mikes theory about my boats not being strong enough. So who would you believe, someone who has sailed one of my boats from BC around Cape Horn, then home again via the western Aleutians , or some one who has never sailed on one , an armchair expert?
When the later claims to know more about a boat than the former, what is his credibility?

Take any Mike Johns design ( which I have never seen) and run thru Boat pass at full flood tide, at full throttle, and hit the big rock in the middle, and see how it makes out .As Mike implies, it will suffer no damage. I am sure he will fully warantee it against such dammage, so it wont cost you anything.


----------



## PCP

Brent Swain said:


> ...
> Most home built boats are far better put together , even by first time builders, than most mass produced boats, for this reason. Anyone with a stock, mass produced boat who wants to test this out can tie their mooring gear to a home made one of my designs , built by a farmer wiht zero previous boat buildig experince , give her full throttle, with a large amount of slack in the mooring lines and see who's mooring bits pull out first, when the line snaps tight.






Brent Swain said:


> I believe the reason your friend's boat took so long and cost so much is because he didn't follow the directions in my book and plans , but got his advice from those trying to sell him expensive gear and materials....




As you know the hull of a boat represents probably only about 1/4 of the cost of a cruiser with a nice interior. His boat was expensive because he used for all other material, from tanks to heater, refrigerator, winches, rigging and mast the same high quality products that are used on mass produced boats but as the big shipyards buy those items directly to the factory and by hundreds of units, the ones he bought to a dealer costed probably 2 times more than what they cost to a big shipyard. of course to have a comfortable interior he had to pay to a carpenter to make it and custom work is not cheap.

Actually he said to me that he had invested about 200 000 euros on his boat (36ft) that eventually he liked to sell to have a bigger boat...but the market price of his boat is between 30 and 35 000 euros so he as no courage to sell and in between periods of lucidity comes to the same old story : My boat is better than any plastic boat...even if he knows that the boat had given him only hardships in what regards costs and maintenance, not to mention sailing performance.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> You are way off on both of these claims.
> 
> Wynand as a very professional boilermaker/welder and steel boat builder summarized quite correctly that you were something akin to a backyard butcher when it came to designing and building boats. So in response you resorted to a hatchet job on him. Your usual technique of making something up. In this case racism. As I said before it's so dumb to lie on record about events on record.So now you are exposed again, this time on this forum as a very creative liar.
> 
> The longitudinals you talk of; I'd be very surprised if you don't really remember what that was about!
> It was your claim of incredible unusual strength not shown by structural analysis since they were always in compression ! So I showed you how stress reversal occurs under load and how readily it occurs in pre stressed components ie the longitudinals. Are you now saying that went over your head too in which case you are a poor learner. Or is it more a case of it disagrees with your book and therefore has to be denied and warped into something you can disregard? Do you want me to go through it again?
> 
> Anyway you didn't leave BD net due to racist attacks or attacks on frameless boats or the coastguard or any other such nonsense. Rather because of the direct result of your own dishonesty, vitriol and the backlash from your own creative personal attacks. You were also exposed clearly as a fraud there.
> 
> No one is ever going to believe anything you say without checking it very well first. You are so stupid to continually and unnecessarily lie. If you lie so brazenly about things which can be easily checked then what about the events that are more obscure and already second hand like your marketing hype ?


I distinctly remeber metioning that lonbgitudinals weld to t he inside of the hull are under compresion pushing outwards with a great amount of force which you claimed lessened their resistance to inward pressure.I distinctly remember you taking a spline and pushing inwards on the middle, them seeingtghe ends bulge outwards, then claiming that is what would happen to a 1 inch by 1 inch by 1/4 inch angle longitudinal welded to the inside of a hull. Do do that you, would have to stretch 3/16th plate over a huge area ( tensile strength 60,000 lbs) by puishing on it with apiece of 1 inch by 1 inch by 1/4 inch angle 
I have seen flat bar longitudinals buckle from weld shrinkage on a Ron Pearson design, but angle is an entirely different matter. Its never hapened on any of my designs in 37 years and tens of thousands of miles of cruising and sever toture tests in extreme conditions. Never will.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Why are we talking about racism and carbon footprints here? What idiot would introduce those subjects into a discussion on yacht design and building?


Its about the credibility of the site mentioned. You have introduced posts about wine and kids etc in a discussion of boat design. So stop being the kettle calling the pot black.


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## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> A 40' steel boat doing 15 knots? Where can I get one of those?


Sail it in the big flood tides we have around here. We have up to 15 knots of tide in Seymore narows. So if you do 8 knots under power you could do 23 knots thru there. Watch out for the 100 ft whirlpools. Okisollo channel does 9 knots, with much smaller whirlpools ,if you would settle for 17 knots.


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## blt2ski

Ok Brent! ANY ONE can do 15 knots thru that channel! I can do that in my fiberglass 4ksb! 15 knots of current and 4 knots of boat sp under power.....19 knots! in a glass boat no less. 

If you are going to come up with these kinds of stories, make sure it works across the board! ANY boat, steel, aluminum, wood, carbon, glass, cement etc, will be doing the same speed as your shown steel boat in the same conditions!

Altho I have to admit, your stretched lies are easy to spot! you could at least make them a bit harder to find!

marty


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## Stumble

Brent Swain said:


> Sail it in the big flood tides we have around here. We have up to 15 knots of tide in Seymore narows. So if you do 8 knots under power you could do 23 knots thru there. Watch out for the 100 ft whirlpools. Okisollo channel does 9 knots, with much smaller whirlpools ,if you would settle for 17 knots.


Why would anyone with a brain try to navigate Seymore Narrows in the middle of a tide?

That makes as much sense as building a boat without framing.


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## bobperry

Those were fun "diversions" BS that had zero to do the subject matter.

You are trying to use racism and environment issues to color the true subject matter of the thread. Read slower. Think faster.

"Why would anyone with a brain try to navigate Seymore Narrows in the middle of a tide? "
Very good question Stumble. But you must remember we are talking BS here with reality bent as required to fit the argument.


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## smackdaddy

Hey Mike,

I saw over at BDnet that Wynand built a Van De Stadt or two. I honestly didn't know those were "non-production" boats (i.e. - built from plans by other builders). Is that common for the VDS line? And were/are they typically steel?

I have to say I liked the aluminum origami boats I came across on BS' site much better than the steel ones. They looked much cleaner and more "professional" even though they had the same hull distortions as the steelers. 

I can't remember the name of the company, but somewhere many pages ago in this thread, I posted a video of a company that was building some very nice looking origami aluminum yachts a few years back. They went belly up (couldn't meet demand). But to my eye, they were at least turning out a nice looking boat.


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## bobperry

"I saw over at BDnet that Wynand built a Van De Stadt or two."

I'm not sure those really count because the builder probably had some plans drawn by a very capable design office. I have see their drawings. They are precise.


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## mitiempo

Van De Stadt is a design house, one of theoldest. They do custom work and have stock designs, some of which can be built in different materials - wood, glass, steel, aluminum. Van de Stadt Design - Yacht Designers and Naval Architects

Here is one of their popular designs, the 34:





Here are the numbers. Notice the ballast weights and displacement for each material, showing steel as the worst choice based on sailing ability and the ability to stand up to her sail area.



Almost one ton heavier in steel with less ballast.


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## smackdaddy

Interesting. It is a good looking boat.


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## Faster

smackdaddy said:


> Interesting. It is a good looking boat.


Fuzzy's "Raven" is one of these in steel.. still available AFAIK...


----------



## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> Hey Mike,
> 
> I saw over at BDnet that Wynand built a Van De Stadt or two. I honestly didn't know those were "non-production" boats (i.e. - built from plans by other builders). Is that common for the VDS line? And were/are they typically steel?


Vand de Stadt (the firm, the Na deceased long ago) has in his story several production boats but the one that was built by Wynand is not a production boat but a boat build from plans that can be bought by anybody. That gives to that person the right to build a boat according to those plans.

A production boat is a boat made by a shipyard that buys in exclusivity to the NA the rights to build a given design that normally is a command. The owner of the rights over that design passes from the NA to the shipyard.

That situation is different than the one regarding a one off. On that case a client buys exclusively the rights over a given design to a NA. The boat is going to be a unique one and that's why it is called a one off.

During many years the main source of income from Vand de Stadt was selling plans to build boats. They have a catalog and anyone could chose a model from there but not in exclusivity.

Yes, they have several designs for steel sailboats. On the past steel were more frequent now they design more for aluminium even if they still have steel boats.

Van de Stadt Design - Info

Regards

Paulo


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## smackdaddy

Faster said:


> Fuzzy's "Raven" is one of these in steel.. still available AFAIK...


That's right. I'd forgotten about Fuzzy's VDS.


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## PCP

smackdaddy said:


> Interesting. It is a good looking boat.


It is an old design, like almost all on that catalog.

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

Hold on just a cotton pickin' minute,,,,,,,,,
You mean to tell me that Van de Stadt actually produced drawings?
Well, I'll be.
Are you trying to tell me that they assumed you would need detailed drawings to produce one of their "designs"?

Well I'll be a ****'s cousin (I made that one up, but it sounds right).

Dag nabbit. Who'd a thought you would need actual drawings to build a boat. Fer crimeny (sp) sakes.

Boy, I'd sure like to see more of them drawings.

I think, but what would I know, that someone calling themselves a designer could produce and show something kind of like this. If not they should bugger off and quit pretending they are a designer.


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## bobperry

Sorry Paulo.
I am speaking in "authentic frontier gibberish".
Did you see the movie BLAZING SADDLES?
Maybe it did not translate well.


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## smackdaddy

Remember, anyone can _claim_ to be a "designer". But only _designers _can _prove it_ with BOTH anecdotal evidence AND documentation.

The others are just hacks.

(I light my cigars like Mongo.)


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## bobperry

Yeah, that's all I am asking.

If you want to write "yacht designer" after your name then show your designs. ****ski, is that complicated?
I don't write "bassoon player" after my name.
I don't write "NFL wide receiver" after my name.

Put up or shut the phuque up.


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## bobperry

ooooh, it worked.


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## casioqv

I never knew it was the drawings rather than the yachts that makes one a yacht designer. When I was a kid I was always drawing boats in class... I guess that makes me a yacht designer?


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## smackdaddy

casioqv said:


> I never knew it was the drawings rather than the yachts that makes one a yacht designer. When I was a kid I was always drawing boats in class... I guess that makes me a yacht designer?


Not unless you've also got your boats out there doing it. Again, it takes BOTH.

You can be a sketcher. You can be a builder. You can be a sketcher AND a builder - with a few boats out there doing it. And all that's fine and good.

But being a true yacht designer is just a higher standard. It's that simple.


----------



## AlaskaMC

Up here in AK almost everyone in my old neighborhood planned, built and finished their homes. Contractor's and architects were not exactly common. BUT NONE OF THEM claimed to be home designers or architects. Some of them built MANY cabins, homes, businesses etc and still made no such claim. They would have accepted the title of carpenter or builder without argument.

I can tear down and rebuild an engine, but I am not a mechanic.
I can run a raft, tie flies, and fly fish quite well, but I am not a fishing guide
etc and so on.

Does Brett "design" boats. Yes, to an extent. Is he obviously a man with a great deal of welding and building experience? Absolutely! That is not the same as being a recognized designer. I am in the computer hardware and software engineering field myself and have been for a rather long time. I understand Bob's frustration in this conversation.


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## mitiempo

A few pages back Brent stated that the Van De Stadt 34 was an origami boat. Not really. But it is a fast way to build an aluminum or steel boat. It requires plates cut to millimeter accuracy from computer files. Here is a link to this method.
Van de Stadt Design - Info


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## Faster

Hey... 25 years ago I drew (sketches, drawings, and all), then built molds, then built 3 (THREE - production run!!) of these little gems for our kids...



Does that make me a designer??


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## bobperry

No casio you are mistaken.
But you can see whatever you want to see. You seem entrenched.

When I was a young aspiring designer I would write "boat designer" after my name. " Robert H. Perry boat designer".

I didn't think I deserved the accolade "yacht designer". I had not earned it. But I knew I designed "boats".

Then I got a job with a big time, East Coast design firm, Carter Offshore. There was me, Yves- Marie Tanton, Chuck Paine and Mark Lyndsey. I made $157 a week. So I got a job moonlighting for Ted Brewer. Ted liked my work. Then one day Ted invited me up to his house in Maine for the weekend. We sat around and during that time Ted said something like. "You are a pretty good yacht designer". I thought, "Holly ****ski, Ted thinks I am a yacht designer. Maybe I am." If Ted thinks I am then,,,,,I must be.

Ted offerred me a job as a partner. I thought that maybe life in a town of 26 people was not really the life I wanted so I turned him down. Ted and I have remained fast friends. I think the world of him.

In our little yacht designer world we have our standards. They are not written down. We need to show each other that we can do it. And we do. Show me what you can do.

You have no idea what you are talking about. It's just nonsense to me. You can defend BS till you last breath but you cannot change the fact that BS cannot provide design documents. In my workd he is a hack.

In my world BS may be a lot of other things that are noteworthy. He shows skills that are wonderful. But he is not a yacht designer.

In my world this is reality.

I respect BS for what he can do. I don't respect him for what he cannot do. And, if he could do it he would show us. Would you like me to post more examples of the yacht designer's art? I can do it till the cows come home. It's what I do. And other real yacht designers will look at it and say, "****ski, Bob Is good at this."


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## PCP

off course. But you have to post the drawings. No drawings posted, no boat designer

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

Faster:
Nice, can I have one? The look on your son's face says it all. Congrats!

Alaska:
You nailed it. A laymen can build an amazing cabin. Does that make him an architect ?No. Is his cabin any less amazing" No. Some very amazing structures have been built by guys with a pile of logs and a need. Are they "desgners"? Well, kind of, sort of. Maybe by accident and necessity.

I can work in my yard, order some big boulders, arrange them, order some river pebbles, arrange them into paths. Am I a landscape architect? Hardly. But my garden works nicely for me.

My pal Ozzie and my pal Marty (he's on here) are landscape architects. I bet they don't think I am a landscape architect.


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## Classic30

So, Bob.. what are your thoughts on membership of R.I.N.A. (or similar) then? Does that make someone a Naval Architect??


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## jak3b

Classic30 said:


> So, Bob.. what are your thoughts on membership of R.I.N.A. (or similar) then? Does that make someone a Naval Architect??


They can design commodes for admirals?.....JK;-)


----------



## bobperry

Classic:
I don't have an easy answer for that.
My experience has been that those who need initials after their name to say what they can do cannot prove it any other way. I don't need to see initials afer a name. I need to see design work. I have been surrounded by this my entire professional carreer.

Does Bruce Farr put any initials after his name? Does Ron Holland?. Does Doug Peterson? Does Chuck Paine? Does Yves -Martie Tanton? Does Bruce King? Does Peter Melvin? Does Juan K? Does Mark Miills? Give me a phouquing break.


----------



## bobperry

About four years ago I received a letter from the Washington Sate bureau of licenses, or something like that. They said they they had heard I was operating as a naval archtitect without the required state documents. (I have never called myself a naval architect.
L. Francis Herrshoff once said that a naval architect is a step below a yacht designer.)

I wrote them a brief letter explaining what I had accomplished in my field for the last 35 years. I got a nice letter back saying, "Never mind, carry on. Let us know if we can ever do anything for you." I keep the letter right here.


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## jak3b

Jake B. hack extrordinaire dds.p.s.hd.qr. and a whole lotta other shyte you never heard of.


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## bobperry

Jak:
I'm might impressed.
You can work on my teeth any time.


----------



## jak3b

bobperry said:


> Jak:
> I'm might impressed.
> You can work on my teeth any time.


I'll weld you up some super strong steel teeth


----------



## Classic30

bobperry said:


> Classic:
> I don't have an easy answer for that.
> My experience has been that those who need initials after their name to say what they can do cannot prove it any other way. I don't need to see initials afer a name. I need to see design work. I have been surrounded by this my entire professional carreer.
> 
> Does Bruce Farr put any initials after his name? Does Ron Holland?. Does Doug Peterson? Does Chuck Paine? Does Yves -Martie Tanton? Does Bruce King? Does Peter Melvin? Does Juan K? Does Mark Miills? Give me a phouquing break.


 I wasn't necessarily thinking about the initials after your name - more the concept of membership of said official institution meaning something in the first place. I dunno, cheap swap meets or sumthing. 

In your case, maybe it doesn't... But then, I guess, that puts Mr Swain in exactly the same category = 'yacht designer', don't it? 

That leads in to the wider question of how Joe Public is supposed to know a good 'yacht designer' from a bad one?? Popular designs? Nope - you don't have to have vast numbers of designs out there to be good, although I'm sure it helps. Highest cost? Nope - obviously. Referral from a friend? Nope - it's not good just because some else says so. Race-winning designs? Nope - might not be into racing.. So how then?


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## AlaskaMC

Classic,

In my field and many others it is your body of work. You do anything you can without initials, membership whatever to begin to build it. In my field there are more certifications and such than you can wave a stick at. I have almost none of them, but my resume stands on its own. Getting basic membership in a society is usually an easier way to ENTER a profession, but it doesn't last without a body of work. In other words, if you are my age, and your body of work includes a degree (membership, cert, classification, etc) from 20 years ago and no real meat since, then you don't have much. I think this is what Bob is saying, at least it was my point.


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## mitiempo

Portfolio of work, reputation mean much more that initials after the name.

If I had to list my favorite 3 designers they would be (in no particular order) Chuck Paine, Steve Dashew, and Bob Perry. I do not think any have letters after their names. But they do each have a great body of work and have shown over decades continual improvement of the designs they have created. 

I respect many more designers including Finot, Lovranos, Dix, Rodger Martin and Bill Lee.
Again no letters as far as I know.


----------



## bobperry

Classic:

You are so confused. I don't really think I'm qualified to help you. I'm just a yacht designer. I'll give it a shot:
You need to open your eyes. I can't tell you how to think. 
Do you not trust your own observations? That's a shame.
You need to learn the art of evaluation, subjective and objective. It's not easy.
You seem to be struggling with it. Decide these things for yourself. If you are comfortable with your answers then great. I cannot provide your answers. I think for myself. You should try it.

It's fine.
Relax.
It's OK.
We don't have to agree.
It's even good if we don't agree.
It's not my job to educate you.

Jak:
My teeth are fine. Right now. Just had two new crowns. Expensive.
Do you do ferro cement crowns?


----------



## jak3b

bobperry said:


> Classic:
> 
> You are so confused. I don't really think I'm qualified to help you. I'm just a yacht designer. I'll give it a shot:
> You need to open your eyes. I can't tell you how to think.
> Do you not trust your own observations? That's a shame.
> You need to learn the art of evaluation, subjective and objective. It's not easy.
> You seem to be struggling with it. Decide these things for yourself. If you are comfortable with your answers then great. I cannot provide your answers. I think for myself. You should try it.
> 
> It's fine.
> Relax.
> It's OK.
> We don't have to agree.
> It's even good if we don't agree.
> It's not my job to educate you.
> 
> Jak:
> My teeth are fine. Right now. Just had two new crowns. Expensive.
> Do you do ferro cement crowns?


Nah to weak, Ill go to the scrap yard and pull an axel spring out of a pre 1975 ford 150, great tensile strength and you'll have tons of spares.Dentists have it all wrong, they work in the stone age
Lots of disinformation about what your mouth needs.All my clients have mouths like Jaws from the James Bond movie,They could eat there own cars if they chose to.


----------



## Classic30

mitiempo said:


> Portfolio of work, reputation mean much more that initials after the name.
> 
> If I had to list my favorite 3 designers they would be (in no particular order) Chuck Paine, Steve Dashew, and Bob Perry. I do not think any have letters after their names.


Since, as I said, I wasn't referring to letters after your name, I can only assume that means more to you guys over there than it does over here. But no matter..



mitiempo said:


> But they do each have a great body of work and *have shown over decades continual improvement of the designs they have created*.


Thanks, Brian. I guess that's the answer I was looking for right there and it would appear that, in yacht design anyway, maybe that happens naturally without the assistance of any professional institute or other such organisation.

With no membership of a professional institute or other such organisation to share ideas around and fast-track the learning of newbies to the art, it would seem that perhaps improvements in yacht design happen by 'trial and error' with little or no learning from the mistakes of others. If that's true, I would pity any up-n'-coming designer because they would need to display a portfolio showing "a great body of work" (somehow funded by people willing to risk big$$ having a yacht designed by a complete rookie) before anyone would even look sideways at them.

Is that what you mean, Bob? Is that how it works? Your new designs are all progressively better than the old ones??

Just curious.


----------



## blt2ski

Bob,

I for one will NOT call myself an architect! as I am NOT one by any shape or form in ANY color you want to choose. I do have a 2 yr design degree tho. Even then, not sure I would use the term Designer after my name either. As I frankly have not as you say, put the time and energy into feeling I have ALL the person reflections to design on a high level. Yes I have the knowledge from classes, working with some EXCELLENT LA's etc. Even some excellent designers that AI have worked with do better than I. I can build a nifty wall, patio, lawn and plantings, and can decipher a set of plans to see if something is amiss and not right as I go. 

I would ALSO need a 4 yr degree from a school, or enough work behind me, to pass the state exam and get a number like some engineers, drs, attorneys etc get passing those state exams. I have none of the above. 

Any way, got AMoretto some what lit up today. Then a BIG 30 knot northerly with some rain came in, daughter and I decided tomorrow might be a better day to finish.......I also think I may not be voted the best lit/dressed boat in my club this year........one came in REALLY dressed up.

marty


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## mitiempo

In the early 70's a young sailor from California working in Skip Calkins office had a better idea for a racing boat for the One Ton class and he named it Ganbare. It won selection and was shipped to Europe. It didn't win the long race because of a tactical mistake but placed first in the other 5 races, placing second overall. His last name is Doug Peterson and he came home to 5 design commissions. He has designed many other boats in the years since including cruising boats and America's Cup boats for the Kiwis.

Ganbare is for sale now actually. ?Ganbare? ? 1972 Doug Peterson Sloop ? EUR 55000 | David Jones Yacht Brokerage

Ron Holland did about the same with a 1/4 tonner as I recall. Now he designs Superyachts.

Both have full portfolios of successful designs in the years since.

I think most designers start either this way or go out on their own after working for a major firm - Carter, S&S, etc.

Who cares what assn they belong to? Their work speaks for itself.


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## Stumble

I have so many letters after my name my wife likes to play word jumble with them (not really but she could). Frankly the only thing I feel I am a true expert on is the areas of law I practice, and other than a JD, there really isn't any other certification I could get for that. 

Frankly I see licenses and degrees as basic competency levels. They are just the minimums needed to work in that field. But they don't speak to the quality of the job they can/will do. Conversely not having them doesn't concern me, but I would need to see a body of work of sufficient size to feel comfortable they know what the heck they are doing.


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## mitiempo

Here is a short video about education. Worth watching to the end.


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## Classic30

mitiempo said:


> Who cares what assn they belong to? Their work speaks for itself.


So.. does that mean R.I.N.A and similar naval architecture associations are irrelevant - and always have been?

It's a fair question.


----------



## mitiempo

Classic30 said:


> So.. does that mean R.I.N.A and similar naval architecture associations are irrelevant - and always have been?
> 
> It's a fair question.


Not irrelevant but not important in and of itself. I just googled R.I.N.A. and couldn't find a list of working designers that belong. But I know what boats I like and who I would approach if I had the money.


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## mitiempo

Since my last post I have been trying to find a designer that even puts assn letters after his name or belongs to the R.I.N.A. or any other design association - I can't find any.

Olin apprenticed under Phil Rhodes when he and Rod partnered with Drake Sparkman to form S&S. They were both sailors and Rod had worked at Nevins. Olin was 21 at the time. Dorade was his first design and won the Trans-Atlantic race in 1931. They were both self taught sailors.

Bruce Kirby, who has designed boats from International 14 to America's Cup contenders Canada 1 and II had no design education at all. One of his earliest designs was the Laser.

Having followed Steve Dashew's designs of cruising boats from the beginning as well as reading his books I don't think he has any formal training in design. 

No, I don't think it makes any difference at all. It may have been important in the distant past but not now.


----------



## MikeJohns

smackdaddy said:


> Hey Mike,
> 
> I saw over at BDnet that Wynand built a Van De Stadt or two. I honestly didn't know those were "non-production" boats (i.e. - built from plans by other builders). Is that common for the VDS line? And were/are they typically steel?
> 
> I have to say I liked the aluminum origami boats I came across on BS' site much better than the steel ones. They looked much cleaner and more "professional" even though they had the same hull distortions as the steelers.
> 
> I can't remember the name of the company, but somewhere many pages ago in this thread, I posted a video of a company that was building some very nice looking origami aluminum yachts a few years back. They went belly up (couldn't meet demand). But to my eye, they were at least turning out a nice looking boat.


Hi Smack

Yes VDS sold plans to pro yards and home builders alike. They are very common designs in some parts of the world. Easy to build and some chine based frameless designs that go together quickly. And well engineered.

Alloy origami, look here:
Origami Magic Not Brent's designs but origami boats. Nothing about them being frameless and that boat would be pretty floppy without significant frames, girders transverses or bulkheads of some sort.

JeanMarc 50 
The above 50 footer is the 55 footer that BS just rambled on about as vindication of his claim that his boats would scale to 60 feet without frames.

Much nicer looking hull than a BS boat.


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## bobperry

Classic:
I can't answer for "the industry" even as small as it is. I can answer for me from my own experience.

Up until the last 15 years there has been no way to get a college degree in yacht design. You could get a degree in naval architecture but that has very little to do with yacht design. With the field being so small it didn't pay for any university to pump out graduates in yacht design. There was the Westlawn correspondence course. Ted Brewer had the Yacht Design Institute briefly, another correspondence course. Then along came The Landing School and they offered a one year program in yacht design. They have now been joined by the university at Southampton with a 4 year program. The only one I am aware of.

So the typical way for any student to get into the yacht design field has been to get a college degree in some related field say like mechanical engineering and then through an apprenticeship style arrangement begin to get into the world of yacht design. After serving in an entry level position the student can move onto other design offices where he can begin to hone his skills. If you want to know exactly how I did it you can buy my book. I lay it out in detail there. After a few years of working in other recognized offices I began to think that I could do it on my own. History shows I was right. It took balls to make that move.

I had as many as four people working for me in my office at one time. I preferred college graduates but I didn't look for any yacht design degrees. They weren't available at the time. I thought that a degree in something showed me the applicant could focus on a goal and achieve it. Primarily I wanted to see drawings. Show me you can design. Over the years I had some very talented help. Tim Kernan and Mark Mills have gone on to both be quite successful on their own. Tim came from The Landing School an d Mark from the university at Southampton. It is a very good school. Juan K. Came from there too.

While I have no formal credentials myself I have taken in interns from all over the world who need to serve an internship in order to graduate from their school. I have had several from Southampton and several from The Landing School. Many times these interns lived in my home while they did their internships. Kind of ironic that students gain credit by working for me while I have no formal credentials. 

There is no one way to become a yacht designer. For me it's a "show me what you can do" situation. Show me your designs. When I was hiring I valued professional quality drafting at a very high level. I have found consistently that those who value the initials after their name usually have nothing else to show. I had one job applicant with a degree as a NA from U of Michigan, great school. He gave up after 2.5 days working in my office. Poor kid didn't have a creative bone in his body. Couldn't draw worth a damn. He already had business cards printed with NA after his name.He went on to be quite successfully selling plastic piping. While there were no formal standards to establish who could call themselves a "yacht designer" I had my own rigid set of standards and I still do. I'm certain there are many ways you can measure design skill. I know my way works.

I could have joined SNAME, the Society for naval architects and marine engineers. I could have written SNAME after my name. Whoop dee doo! But I have only ever known one yacht designer who joined and used the initials. I seem to recall that Bruce Farr received the O.B.E.. I'd sure as hell put that after my name but I have never seen Bruce use it.

So, very sorry Classic. I can't provide you a short cut so you can identify a good designer. You'll just have to think on your own and look at the body of work. If there is no existing body of work you will have to have a long talk with the designer and ask to see drawings and sketches. You should ask enough questions to determine the designer has a solid grasp of the elements of naval architecture. 

That's about it.


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## SloopJonB

casioqv said:


> Statistics from Consumer Reports show that the average life span of a new vehicle is 150,000 miles


More meaningless info from Consumer Reports. I do not understand how that organization stays in existence - EVERYTHING they have reported on that I have personally experienced has been complete bull$hit.

Cars lasted 150K back in the 60's. Today if you change the oil once in a while they will easily last 250K and more. A well kept and maintained car will look virtually new at 100K these days.

CR is probably factoring in all the cars that are scrapped for ANY reason in that stat, not just the ones that are worn out.


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## Stumble

One of the things Bob discussed but I think may be a bit of a generalization is that we are talking about a NA in the private market. I have a lot of friends in the NA field here in New Orleans that do use letters after their names, BUT they work primarily in the oil and gas industry where certifications mean everything.

When every design change has to be signed off by someone with the proper credentials then either you have them or not. In the private market things are not as ridged, and for good reason. Could you imagine the additional cost of having a corrosion engineer check off the plans for every boat? Or a fire safety engineer sign them off? It just would not be reasonable, so for the private market designers do things like use 'best practice' or 'time tested' methods, and we accept them because they are exactly that time tested and proven. 

Otherwise simple things we take for granted would become hopelessly complicated, and very expensive. To gain nothing in the value of the product.


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## PCP

Some talk back on the thread about well designed work boats to be beautiful. Everything well designed can be beautiful. I saw these videos and I remember that conversation. It's about tugs and I found the two types beautiful, the mother one with some references to the past and the traditional type.


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## Faster

Here's a pretty typical 'workboat' style yacht found in Europe.. I think this boat has a lot of charm.. Steel, if not iron!?!

The name roughly translates (I think) to 'never would have believed it'...


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## bobperry

I'm always partial to tugs. I like to do tug cartoons. There can be a nobility to a good tug. These boats are perfect examples of how steel workboats can be beautiful. All it takes is a designer with an eye.


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## bobperry

Spike worked for a Volvo "recycler" when he was in high school. I bought him a nice Volvo station wagon. He bought himself a 1957 Volvo panel wagon. He got it for $1,000 and put a lot of work into to to get it running again. The body was pristine but needed paint and the interior was a wreck. It was a brute of a car. When he moved out he had no place to keep it so he sold it to a Volvo mechanic in Ballard for $4,000. He eventually bought a new Scion "Box". He never really bonded to the Scion. Spike preferred cars that needed constant attention. He bought a VW bus and that took care of the constant attention need. He seldom drove the Scion after he got the bus.


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> Hi Smack
> 
> Yes VDS sold plans to pro yards and home builders alike. They are very common designs in some parts of the world. Easy to build and some chine based frameless designs that go together quickly. And well engineered.
> 
> Alloy origami, look here:
> Origami Magic Not Brent's designs but origami boats. Nothing about them being frameless and that boat would be pretty floppy without significant frames, girders transverses or bulkheads of some sort.
> 
> JeanMarc 50
> The above 50 footer is the 55 footer that BS just rambled on about as vindication of his claim that his boats would scale to 60 feet without frames.
> 
> Much nicer looking hull than a BS boat.


I suggest you experiment with sheet metal models, to further your comprehension of how shape eliminates the "Floppiness" you fantasize about.
You can learn a lot that way. What supports what, quickly becomes self evident with such models .


----------



## Brent Swain

mitiempo said:


> A few pages back Brent stated that the Van De Stadt 34 was an origami boat. Not really. But it is a fast way to build an aluminum or steel boat. It requires plates cut to millimeter accuracy from computer files. Here is a link to this method.
> Van de Stadt Design - Info


In the ends, beyond the external frame work , what defines the shape ? The plate edges; origami principles. Van De Stadt was one of very few designers to take full advantage of the properties of steel, and not stick to wooden boat building methods for steel boats .


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## Brent Swain

Bob
How's your new dinghy coming? When can we see the pattern layout?


----------



## Brent Swain

Stumble said:


> Why would anyone with a brain try to navigate Seymore Narrows in the middle of a tide?
> 
> That makes as much sense as building a boat without framing.


Someone asked how a boat can do so far over hull speed so I answered him. That is how the 40 footer went so fast thru boat passage. No one with a brain would do Seymore in a full flood. I only went thru there once in over 40 years of cruising the BC coast( without an engine, in a strong westerly at slack water)
Okisollo makes far more sense, far less dangerous and a fraction the traffic , no big ships. Lots of places to stop and wait for the next slack tide. I have run Surge narrows many times on a 9 knot tide, no problem. Start in the middle and you stay in the middle. By the time you hit the whirlpools you are in deep water, not much chance of hitting anything .

Van de Stadt , myself, Roberts, Dix , Shannon ,etc have designed many boats without transverse frames, all of them successful. You say we are all doing it all wrong? How many successful steel boats of your design are out here? More than the total of the above mentioned designers?


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
Rowboat is sidelined while I work on two newer projects. I have plenty of time to do the rowboat and I like to take care of my clients before I take care of me. I like my work.

When the time comes I don't think I'll publish the final pattern layout. I'll publish pics of the finished boat instead.


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## MikeJohns

Well this is important because you may dupe someone into building something dangerous.



Brent Swain said:


> I had drawn the tank and specified the angle iron webs in that design by that time in the plans I sold them, which they ignored. .


But that's not the only boat it happened to is it ! It was an illustration of your approach to designing by mistakes. I'm just illustrating that your intuition was incorrect. You initially thought it would be strong enough because of the curvature, although any designer worth his salt could have foreseen the weakness and the consequent buckling of the supporting plate. Something you didn't grasp until it happened. I think it's a good example of where some sensible engineering would have helped you from the start.

So you modified the plans after it had happened to other boats. 
Now you are pretending it only happened to one boat in extreme circumstances after you altered the plans and wrote this .

"Given the tendency for the trailing edges of the twin keels to be driven up into the boat when they collide with a rock, and the fact that they are far enough back to be under the pilothouse floor in the 36, putting a 3/16th plate web across them would reinforce them without being in the way of anything. The top of this web could be T'd with a piece of ½ inch by 4 inch flatbar, making it extremely strong."



Brent Swain said:


> The tops of the low aspect ratio keels on my 36 are 8 ft long. I have since seen them on that site , swooning over twin keelers which have about a foot of attachement to the hull, with a far higher aspect ratio.
> How do you get a foot of attachement to a plastic hull ,with a far higher aspect ratio keel, to be stronger than 8 ft of attachement to a steel hull with a far lower aspect ratio keel?
> You dont!( Mike the "Engineer?")
> No Mike, with a track record like that ,I wouldn't want you "Engineering" any of my boats, any more that I would let a civil "engineer " do laser surgery on my eyes.


What exactly does this have to do with your earlier designs rotating their keels up into the boat ?



Brent Swain said:


> A friend posted several pictures of a couple of very successful origami 55 footers in aluminium on that site. One I last saw at Christmas Island after which he sailed back to BC in November. Jean Marc, the owner, has cruised enough miles in the Hecate straight area, year round to have done a circumnavigation, wiht zero structural problems .He loves sailing in full storms. Harvey , on the other origami 55 footer, cruises the west coast of Vancouver Island year round .
> Completely demolishes your theory about them not being strong enough.


But you had nothing to do with these designs, and you can't say what framing was used, you are just borrowing them because they started life as origami, not frameless. They have exactly nothing to do with scaling your frameless designs.



Brent Swain said:


> Here are some quotes from a letter Steve on Silas Crosby sent me from the Straits of Magellan
> "I thought you should know that Silas Crosby is amoung the smaller boats sailing around , but it seems to cause us less worry that most boats down here .
> The ability to get in very shallow and even dry out , or just touch at low tide, is a quality that most people, even here , do not have a clue about.
> While avoiding ice chunks near the Pia Glacier, I hit a rock dead on at 3 knots . A shrug and carried on. Thanks for your helping me get here . Good boat, good design."
> This completely demolishes Mikes theory about my boats not being strong enough.


No you are being deceptive again I'm not saying your boats under 36' are not strong enough. I said a scaled up design sans frames wouldn't be strong enough.

I have shown that pre welding the longitudinals flat and then pulling them into a curve along with the plating is weaker than post welding after foldup and I showed you why. So your method is weaker than you could achieve with the same material, its why your designs will dent easily.

If you pre stress something its already under load, when you push in the middle of that member it deforms more easily and again I showed you and explained why. You had no comprehension about stress reversal nor about buckling. You still don't. The internal longs cannot stay in compression under load, if you push on the hull they can only work to resist the load by going into tension because they are not in enough of a curve to be self supporting like the arch. So by pre bending them along with the plate you make them weaker, they want to straighten which assists the load in deflecting the side of the hull rather than resisting it.

That the longitudinals are arches always in compression is the whole basis of your strength argument which is simply wrong.

This in important because it's easy to show that you cannot scale your boats to 60 feet as you claim. Simply because your structural arguments are completely flawed and based on intuition. I offered to model a hull and give the imploding depth in a bow dive, you didn't want to know.

Any frameless design scaled much over 36 feet will start to get quite weak without some transverse framing. I'm still happy to model it if it saves someones bacon.

So save your 3 knot collisions in sub 36' frameless origami boats, that's where it works, I don't have a problem with that. Even if you design weak boats for the material used they may well be strong enough becaue the material is so tough anyway.

Anyone who understands structures can explain to you why shell buckling renders thin shell monocoque unsafe if it's simply scaled . You can ask any naval arch mechanical or marine engineer. You'll get the same information. Try it we are all approachable.



Brent Swain said:


> So who would you believe, someone who has sailed one of my boats from BC around Cape Horn, then home again via the western Aleutians , or some one who has never sailed on one , an armchair expert?........


Again what does this have to do with scaling your design or your misunderstanding of how structures work exactly ?


----------



## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> .........
> Van de Stadt , myself, Roberts, Dix , Shannon ,etc have designed many boats without transverse frames, all of them successful. You say we are all doing it all wrong? ............


Again this is misinformation. It's your mistakes that are pertinent not other peoples successes.

Just because someone else designs a frameless boat with carefully placed inbuilt tanks acting as stiffeners or bulkheads acting as transverses and chines acting as longitudinals doesn't vindicate your design paradigms at all.


----------



## smackdaddy

MikeJohns said:


> Even if you design weak boats for the material used they may well be strong enough because the material is so tough anyway.


Honestly, I think this is the primary issue in a nutshell in terms of the "Cons" of the BS boats: a flawed design and construction method, saved only by the fact that the skin material is steel (serious overkill).

I would be very interested to know how those aluminum BS boats fare in heavy seas. I don't think they'll be sailing away from serious impacts with rock or "Fukushima Debris" (see video below). Though intuitively it seems like a good idea, the aluminum BS approach seems to me to be the "worst of both worlds" (i.e. - frameless construction but a weaker skin - weaker than GRP?). Is this correct from a materials standpoint?

Here's a couple of interior shots of two different aluminum BS boats:



















And here's an interesting high-impact puncture test of GRP vs. aluminum skin (at about 1:07):


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## SloopJonB

There's no place like home.


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## jak3b

Come on Smack, you know that video was altered by Usanian dis-information agents bent on discrediting any option Joe Six pack has to get out and live the dream.You know the one....Ice on the decks stuck in your pilot house smelling your laundry eating bad oatmeal?


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## bobperry

That's an awful image Jak. I'll probably dream about that now.


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## jak3b

bobperry said:


> That's an awful image Jak. I'll probably dream about that now.


Sorry Bob;-)


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## mitiempo

Brent Swain said:


> In the ends, beyond the external frame work , what defines the shape ? The plate edges; origami principles. Van De Stadt was one of very few designers to take full advantage of the properties of steel, and not stick to wooden boat building methods for steel boats .


Brent

To me and according to Alex Christie's site origami is a folded method of construction. As everybody on this thread knows this is limiting in hull shapes possible. The Van De Stadt 34 is a steel multi chine boat built in a jig with framing added later. I see no "origami principles" involved here, no folded construction. It is clever but it is also very similar to many steel and aluminum hard chine boats built around the world as well as many single and multi chine boats built out of plywood. It also can create many different hull forms than can be built with a folded design.

Origami means folding. I don't see any folding on Van De Stadt's site or very many other builder's sites for that matter.


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## PCP

...[/QUOTE]

Is this Strongal (aluminium)?


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## smackdaddy

I'll wait to hear Mike's and/or Bob's assessment of the aluminum/origami approach, but it certainly looks sketchy to me.

The strange thing is that apparently Brent has nothing to say about this on his website. In other words, here he advocates steel at every turn for its strength. Yet he says nothing about the issues with a much weaker skin material to those building with it. It seems that if he were responsible to his customers he'd be all over this aluminum approach, warning them away from it due to its obvious weaknesses.

Oh well, there is the $20 book on the table in that one shot. Revenue is very nice.


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## mitiempo

Smack

Aluminum is weaker than steel in the same thickness. Aluminum boats have thicker skins that essentially equal steel's strength but end up a great deal lighter.


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## smackdaddy

mitiempo said:


> Smack
> 
> Aluminum is weaker than steel in the same thickness. Aluminum boats have thicker skins that essentially equal steel's strength but end up a great deal lighter.


I understand what you're saying in general. But are you sure that's the case in the above boats? What is the thickness of the skin in those? That's my concern.

Again, the guys building these may know exactly what they're doing (one of them especially is very well detailed). But where are those aluminum thickness specs laid out in Brent's books, DVDs, or drawings? Maybe they're there - I just haven't seen any evidence of it.


----------



## mitiempo

smackdaddy said:


> I understand what you're saying in general. But are you sure that's the case in the above boats? What is the thickness of the skin in those? That's my concern.
> 
> Again, the guys building these may know exactly what they're doing (one of them especially is very well detailed). But where are those aluminum thickness specs laid out in Brent's books, DVDs, or drawings? Maybe they're there - I just haven't seen any evidence of it.


Specs in Brent's book, dvd's, drawings? You have to be kidding.

Usually aluminum hull skin is 1 1/2 times the thickness of the same structure in steel. This gives about the same strength with aluminum being ahead a bit in both overall yield strength and in ultimate failure. The aluminum hull will be 35% to 45% lighter than the same boat in steel.

Good article here comparing the 2 materials.

Aluminum Strength vs Steel Strength


----------



## bobperry

Brent?
Drawings?
Surely you jest.

If you can do it (origami) in steel you can do it in alu. It just takes thicker plate.
Brent is correct in that the shape of the bent plate in the bow and stern does provide "stiffness". Even ABS allowed for this.

But he is totally guessing. It appears that he guesses pretty good. I'm not sure he is up to guessing in alu yet. He does have a real feel for working in steel. You cant teach that.

As for his hull shapes, they are ok. I sort of like most of his bows and I don't like his sterns. But I don't hate them. They are fine. He has no control with his method. Ok, he has minimal control. He is a slave to the method but he is a dutiful slave and he makes it work. He manages to cobble together a shape that looks like a boat and in some cases not too bad a boat. He gets credit for that. Unfortnately that's where his skill ends and any aesthetic elements are left to the builders and God knows most of them don't have a clue as to what shapes work well together. So in most cases you get the dog's breakfast as an end product. All the pieces are there to make it work but there is no sense of design behind it.

I had a good friend. He was a very tall and handsome young man. He had beautiful hair, a great personality and a great smile. He liked ugly women. I never quite understood it. Brent's boats will always find admirers.


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## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> I had a good friend. He was a very tall and handsome young man. He had beautiful hair, a great personality and a great smile. He liked ugly women. I never quite understood it. Brent's boats will always find admirers.


That story sort of reminds me of the old, not at all PC, Abbott and Costello joke:

C: I'd rather marry a homely woman than a beautiful one.
A: Why's that? 
C: A beautiful woman might run off and leave me. 
A: But a homely woman also might run off and leave you.
C: Yes, but who would care?

That not withstanding, in many ways it saddens me that so much of the posts in this thread has focused on percieved flaws with Brent or his methods rather than a more substantive discussion on metal boats. Anyone who has read many of my posts knows that there is much that Brent and I would disagree on, but within all of the back and forths of this thread, there is much that Brent says that represents a respectable view point, which I might summarize this way:

1. If you are going to sail into remote regions of the world, the toughness and strength of steel makes steel a reasonable option. 
2. Trying to produce a 'yacht quality' boat in steel can be expensive, so for some people with a more utilitarian aesthetic, using a simple folded construction may be an economical alternative to other options. 
3. If you are mechanically adept, and have the patience, discipline and resourcefulness, it may make more sense to build your own boat than pay the cost to have one built or try to restore and adapt some older production boat. 
4. In that regard, Brent's boats go together quickly and can be floating sooner than most other construction media.

[I must admit that it took me a while to grasp what Brent was saying when he talks about a 100 hours to 'pull together and tack' a boat. As I understand that, it means that it takes a 100 hours of labor for one person, plus a laborer (whether that means a 100 additional hours or 100 hours combined is not clear) to cut the steel, add whatever stiffeners are needed to the interior, pull the plates together and tack weld them in place. The hundred hours does not include welding the full length of seams between the plates, installing ballast, protecting the steel, installing enough of the interior tankage and framing to produce a rigid hull form, or installing an engine, all of which requires more time. But because the seams are self aligning longitudinally and shorter on an 'origami design' than most other techniques, the hull should be water tight and floatable sooner than most other techniques. Brent then advocates moving aboard and finishing the boat while afloat. Needless to say there is a lot more time involved between the 100 hour pull together and tack, and the actual splash, but arguably it is less time than many other techiques.]

5. Whatever compromises there may be to Brent's designs, his boats do have a proven track record and for many serious cruisers that track record represents an acceptable performance.

6. For those so inclined, and with access to scrap metal and plastic, much of the hardware on Brent's boats can be fabricated by a handy owner, again trading the owner's surplus time for the owner's potential outlay of money. Frankly, I find some of Brent's hardware is quite ingenious.

7. Whether Brent performs calculations or drafts his designs is not something I will venture a comment on. But there is a long history of boats which have evolved from known types and which have been constructed based on the experience of the builder with that type. This is especially true in working watercraft where almost no drawings existed and the builders worked from rules of thumb, and by eye often producing highly sophisticated designs for their intended purpose and available technologies. In my mind Brent's work falls in the category of designs which have evolved through his experience. I personally see that as a legitimate way to produce a design.

[On the other hand when someone sells a design to an amatuer builder, there is a huge difference between a design which has been carefully worked out and documented vs. one that is left for the builder to develop. While I will not venture to put Brent in one camp or the other, I strongly believe that so-called 'stock plans' should include very complete information rather than rely on the ad libbed 'design skills' of the amateur boat builder which may be okay, but which are more likely to be under-developed at best.

I give this supporting example of why I believe this from my own recent experience. I am in the process of replumbing my 30 year old boat. While its not been a walk in the park, I have been very aware that there are chases running throughout my boat that were designed to allow plumbing and wiring to move the length and breadth of the boat and get from one point to another, passing watertanks and framing in a manner that allows future replacement of all systems as the boat ages.

My boat was designed as a stock plan to be built in wood or glass, and with the glass boats sold as a kit or fully finished. I have seen the construction drawings for my boat and these chases and passages are all drafted on the drawings with great precision. I have always been deeply indebted to the 28 year old Bruce Farr for thinking of these things before the builder slapped something together that was virtually impossible to maintain over the long haul. Farr had grown up sailing and designing boats, and clearly understood the importance of these things in a cruising boat. The same understanding can rarely be found within the mind of most amatuer builders, who without strong guidance, should never be counted on to think of such things.]

[In a separate note, and as other have noted, while Brent's individual designs may represent a tried and true design in their size and evolved form, I am somewhat skeptical about how well they scale up and down, or translate to other hull forms.]

8. At least in the general size range that Brent advocates, the skin of the hull can be made thick enough that the requirement for framing is minimized to the point that the majority of the internal framing can be used to create portions of tanks and other build in components.

9. When used in northern climates, a water tight Pilothouse greatly improves comfort and safety.

10. If you are a person who can build most of your boat with your own two hands, and you have access to the tools, and have the spare time on your hands, then when you are done with your boat, you at least save the costs of labor and perhaps save some of the costs of materials, and if you eschew fine woods and glossy finishes, further money and time can be saved there as well, making a more affordable boat for those for whom the initial description applies.

I suggest that those are all reasonable conclusions. If the Brent's position stopped there, I suspect we would all agree with Brent. Where I, like many of you, have difficulties, is the extention beyond those points, and more specifically the seeming assumption that all of the above universally applies to everyone and every boat buying decision, and also the general denial of the science behind yacht design and engineering, and the unwillingness to understand that there really are a variety of valid lifestyles that a person can elect to pursue which may differ from his own chosen path through life.

But at that point in these conversations, these discussions devolve into a debate with positions equally unsupportable as arguing whether vanilla ice cream is universally inherently better than Strawberry, or, even worse, less supportable than Monty Python's Black Knight's claim, "tis only a flesh wound"

Jeff


----------



## smackdaddy

I think that is a very, very fair post, Jeff. As usual.


----------



## Capt Len

Well said Jeff. Having messed with boats all my life, I can recognize that most of the pros and cons here are based on more than mere flesh wounds. Hence the constant psychological waving of sword.


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## SloopJonB

Over the years there have been a number of people who promoted self sufficient construction & adaptation techniques to building a boat for cheap.

Bruce Roberts provided sheets of drawings for making cleats, a dinghy etc. etc. He even had a design for turning a truck differential into a wheel steering setup.

Locally there was a guy - Phil something - who wrote a building column for Pacific Yachting back in the day. He advocated using street light poles for masts among other cost saving measures.

It's nothing exclusive to BS, he's just the latest and most messianic about it.

40 years ago it had an appeal - building your own boat was very big, production boats were expensive, there was no huge pool of cheap/neglected used boats and so forth.

Nowadays I can't see building your own boat for any other reason than the satisfaction of building it - it's going to take a *long* time, cost more than buying one and will probably cost you your marriage/family.


----------



## Faster

SloopJonB said:


> Nowadays I can't see building your own boat for any other reason than the satisfaction of building it - it's going to take a *long* time, cost more than buying one and will probably cost you your marriage/family.


Pessimist!!!


----------



## outbound

Have tried repetitively to move this thread back to what I perceived it's original intent and will try again.
I looked at steel construction some time ago. Multiple designers offered plans at that time which included CDs with cutting files allowing nesting of plate/frame components maximizing usage of material and minimizing costs/labor. At that time there were multiple yards constructing in steel. I seem to recall Kanter ( since moved to all Al)in Canada, yards near Biloxi and up in the Bath Maine area. I recall you could approach a yard doing fish boats or work boats such as those around New Bedford and they would fabricate a hull and deck for you. I believe you could get a boat in "sail away" state allowing you to do the labor intensive in fill on your own but saving you innumerable hours and ensuring a fair, safe hull. Given the downsizing of the sailboat and fish boat construction industry in this country I have several questions:
1. Are these resources still available to Americans? If so where?
2.If so have the advances in CAD/CAM and other technologies expanded into this sphere?
3.Brent speaks to the durability of "old school" coating systems. Have there been advances in coating systems for steel boats that allow increased beauty with decreased maintenance?
4.Is demand sufficient that further understanding and advances in hull shape and design in recent years has been expanded into the genre of steel sail boats.?
5. What recent designs ( 15y to present) in steel are there or is this a material where limitations due the material and economics have not allowed any changes in paradigm?


----------



## outbound

Many of the contributors to this thread has alluded Al. There are active yards and designers in AL. I further wonder given the limitations of steel why anyone would currently build in steel The Al boat would be
faster
actually have reasonable resale value
just as safe
could incorporate modern design
not require external paint beyond bottom paint
Admittedly unless the home builder was skilled in TIG welding ( which I found just as easy as long as you moved the puddle and thought about heat distortion) and had access to a wind free environment construction in Al is problematic. Still given hull/deck usually compromise ~10-15% of total cost even if these are professionally constructed the "home builder" ends up with a better boat for 20-30% more money. I wish Brent and others would speak to this. Finally, most of us make more money doing what our "day job" is than we would save by home building. In Al you can still buy a "production boat" with appropriate certification ( CE, ABYC, Norske Veritas, German Lloyds etc) that would allow easily obtained insurance and financing.


----------



## mitiempo

A day or so ago we were discussing membership in various design associations. 
Earlier today I posted a link comparing steel and aluminum. It was to Michael Kasten's site. I have just spent some time looking at the rest of his site and was surprised to find he belongs to everything he probably can! 

Royal Institute of Naval architects

Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers

Society of Boat and Yacht Designers (didn't know that existed)

Metal Boat Society

ABYC

Doesn't mean much to me, except possibly for ABYC, but I don't think I have seen such a list under one name before. Look at all those annual dues!


----------



## mitiempo

outbound said:


> Many of the contributors to this thread has alluded Al. There are active yards and designers in AL. I further wonder given the limitations of steel why anyone would currently build in steel The Al boat would be
> faster
> actually have reasonable resale value
> just as safe
> could incorporate modern design
> not require external paint beyond bottom paint
> Admittedly unless the home builder was skilled in TIG welding ( which I found just as easy as long as you moved the puddle and thought about heat distortion) and had access to a wind free environment construction in Al is problematic. Still given hull/deck usually compromise ~10-15% of total cost even if these are professionally constructed the "home builder" ends up with a better boat for 20-30% more money. I wish Brent and others would speak to this. Finally, most of us make more money doing what our "day job" is than we would save by home building. In Al you can still buy a "production boat" with appropriate certification ( CE, ABYC, Norske Veritas, German Lloyds etc) that would allow easily obtained insurance and financing.


I agree aluminum can make much more sense. Higher resale, better stability as it allows the weight to be ballast not hull weight, especially in boats under 50', not as expensive as Brent and others would have you believe as it does not require paint above the waterline, less maintenance - you don't have to re-paint what you didn't paint to start with, and equal strength and durability if the correct scantlings are used.

Aluminum would be my first material choice for a one-off custom boat and probably for a production boat (Ovni, Boreal), followed by wood/epoxy composite as a second choice if custom.

Steel wouldn't be on the list at all.


----------



## PCP

outbound said:


> Many of the contributors to this thread has alluded Al. There are active yards and designers in AL. I further wonder given the limitations of steel why anyone would currently build in steel The Al boat would be
> faster
> actually have reasonable resale value
> just as safe
> could incorporate modern design
> not require external paint beyond bottom paint
> Admittedly unless the home builder was skilled in TIG welding ( which I found just as easy as long as you moved the puddle and thought about heat distortion) and had access to a wind free environment construction in Al is problematic. Still given hull/deck usually compromise ~10-15% of total cost even if these are professionally constructed the "home builder" ends up with a better boat for 20-30% more money. I wish Brent and others would speak to this. Finally, most of us make more money doing what our "day job" is than we would save by home building. In Al you can still buy a "production boat" with appropriate certification ( CE, ABYC, Norske Veritas, German Lloyds etc) that would allow easily obtained insurance and financing.


I would say that very few top NA are designing steel boats, not even big steel yachts. Big steel yachts used to be made of steel and brands like Perini or Jongert used to build in steel but not anymore. The turning point happened for the more conservative brands, like these two, around 2000.






You can look at this list and you can see clearly the abandon of steel has a building material for hulls at around 2000. After that almost all big hulls are aluminium.

The last famous one in steel was this one:



But that's because they used reused an old 1989 steel hull.

Older boats from Jongert or Perini have steel hulls, like these yachts:






Now these two shipyards, even on classic boats, use aluminium:



and obviously on the modern ones too:









Regarding small sailingboat's hulls advantages in steel or aluminium, Berckemeyer gives a good explanation:

*CONSTRUCTION:

YACHT TYPES, ROUND BILGE / HARD CHINE:
Generally, we prefer round bilge yachts for their better looks and performance (no sharp corners to create turbulence). Metal hard chine hulls may be 15-25% cheaper than round bilge ones of the same material, however, since with a custom built yacht the hull represents only about 30% of the value of the complete boat, the hard chine saving is only approx. 5-8% of the overall value, but the resale value of the whole yacht may be reduced by 25 % or more, compared to the round bilge counterpart.

BOAT BUILDING MATERIALS: 
Metal boats are the safest for serious long distance cruising, since unfortunately there is a lot of debris floating around, even lost containers. When you hit one of them with a GRP boat, you are in trouble. ...

ALUMINIUM YACHTS: 
Aluminium nowadays is the most popular building material with custom built long distance cruisers. You can leave it unpainted. Claims about electrolysis problems with Aluminium hulls are mostly exaggerated, however, this aspect should be observed and proper protection installed.

The following comparison will show the pros and cons of Aluminium versus steel:

Weight: Aluminium is lighter than steel for the same strength. Hence the available displacement can be utilized for carrying water, equipment and provisions, rather than a heavy steel structure.

More stable and faster: Due to their lighter weight, Aluminium boats have a lower centre of gravity and are therefore more stable and faster.

Appearance: In order to keep the weight of steel hulls down, plating is thinner than with Aluminium yachts. Therefore, over the years, steel hulls will often acquire a buckled appearance, with reduced resale value.

Labour saving: Light weight means labour saving during the construction of the hull. Also, Aluminium can be cut abt. 3x as fast as steel and it can be cut with normal woodworking equipment. Aluminium welds approc. 2x as fast as steel, even considering the thicker plating to be welded in the case of Aluminium construction.

Safety: Aluminium deforms or stretches beyond its elastic limit more than steel before rupturing. This is of particular importance when hitting floating objects ( it is estimated that approximately 10 00 containers are going overboard annually ).

Safety: Aluminium is non-sparking and non-magnetic.

Price of material: Aluminium is more expensive than steel, however, it does not require a very elaborate paint system for corrosion protection and the resale value of Aluminium yachts is the highest of all boatbuilding materials.
....
STEEL YACHTS: 
Steel is the traditional material for metal boatbuilding. However, in spite of all claims that steel can be 100% corrosion protected, it still needs care and when you see a rusty spot on an exposed surface, you will have uneasy feelings about the hidden parts which will rust away undetected. Moreover, steel adds approx. 20% to the displacement as compared to Aluminium hulls, which could be better utilized by way of supplies. The resale value of steel boats is low

O. Berckemeyer*

Today Nas that still design sailboats in steel do that almost exclusively for amateur boat builders. Steel is harder to cut but much more easier to weld than the aluminium and for the low budget boat builder, that are not going to spend a lot on a good interior, good mast, good winches and good sails the difference in price will be important. Not to a shipyard where the cost of the hull only represents 30% of the cost of the boat and the difference in price between using aluminium of steel only a small fraction of that.

The designs that are made for amateur boat builders have not as main objective pure efficiency in what regards hull design but easiness of building and generally the designs offered on the market are old and have one or two dozens of years or more. Not properly the top of the crop in what regards hull design

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

When all this is written down my name will be there. I know that. No societies. not nothin'.
Just Bob Perry.

Maybe I could have BFD after my name. Bob Perry BFD. I like that.

I just saw all those huge boats Paulo posted.
Oooooooo.
I think I'll just slink off to my corner now.


----------



## SloopJonB

mitiempo said:


> A day or so ago we were discussing membership in various design associations.
> Earlier today I posted a link comparing steel and aluminum. It was to Michael Kasten's site. I have just spent some time looking at the rest of his site and was surprised to find he belongs to everything he probably can!
> 
> Royal Institute of Naval architects
> 
> Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers
> 
> Society of Boat and Yacht Designers (didn't know that existed)
> 
> Metal Boat Society
> 
> ABYC
> 
> Doesn't mean much to me, except possibly for ABYC, but I don't think I have seen such a list under one name before. Look at all those annual dues!


And yet I've never heard of him.


----------



## bobperry

I have heard of him. He has done noihing that would get my attention.


----------



## MikeJohns

smackdaddy said:


> Honestly, I think this is the primary issue in a nutshell in terms of the "Cons" of the BS boats: a flawed design and construction method, saved only by the fact that the skin material is steel (serious overkill).
> 
> I would be very interested to know how those aluminum BS boats fare in heavy seas. I don't think they'll be sailing away from serious impacts with rock or "Fukushima Debris" (see video below). Though intuitively it seems like a good idea, the aluminum BS approach seems to me to be the "worst of both worlds" (i.e. - frameless construction but a weaker skin - weaker than GRP?). Is this correct from a materials standpoint?.................


If the builder converts 3/16 steel plate to 1/4 alloy that's only an increase of 1.3 times which will be a little weaker than steel but not alarmingly so.

Talking common boatbuilding materials. Alloy needs to be 1.4 times thicker that steel to have the same resistance to buckling. Stiffness scales linearly to Youngs modulus and by the cube of the material thickness. Young modulus or stiffness (desigated E in GPa) of most boat building alloys is around 70 and steel is 200. so for the same thickness alloy is only 35% as stiff (for 30% of the weight). If we take the cube root of (1 / 0.35) we get 1.42 as the required thickness increase. Or one half the weight of the equivalent structural material for the hull for 1.4 times the volume of material.

Alloy makes sense for lightweight boats and can be further lightened and made stronger by adding framing since deflection also goes by the cube of the span. So halving the span reduces deflection by a factor of 8. That's why with alloy you juggle the skin and framing to find a good balance of strength and weight.

But novel alloy structures also need a careful analysis to ensure that not only material stress is within fatigue and buckling limits, but weld stresses are below the fatigue stress allowances. Alloy should also be professionally welded. It's the worst material for the home builder to attempt to build in and it's very easy to produce nice looking welds which have no penetration and can fail easily.

But I think you'd be daft to build an alloy Brent boat, you'd never recoup the material costs in resale. You'd buy a used Brentboat for less than the alloy cost.

It would be much more sensible to opt for a better designer and build compliant to ISO or some class scantlings. At least they catch the design pitfalls which can be numerous. With alloy the devil really is in the detail. You would also have a much better cost to strength ratio.

You find that most common materials have quite similar stiffness to density figures or what's called 'Specific Modulus' Lighter materials have the benefit of being able to increase stiffness with thickness at a much greater rate than they increase total mass. But lot of boats don't benefit much from a lighter hull construction particularly if they are a heavier type of vessel by design. Alloy does corrode less but a hot zinc or aluminium sprayed steel hull (internal deck and even topsides) comes close in durability if you can afford it.


----------



## mitiempo

MikeJohns said:


> But a lot of boats don't benefit much from a lighter hull construction particularly if they are a heavier type of vessel by design. Alloy does corrode less but a hot zinc or aluminium sprayed steel hull (internal deck and even topsides) comes close in durability if you can afford it.


Mike
I agree with most of your post except for the part quoted. I can't think of any sailboat that cannot benefit from a lighter hull, given adequate strength. Whether a light or heavy design ballast/disp ratio is important. If not ballast, load carrying ability as most cruisers end up overloaded. In a smaller boat, under 45' to 50' it is even more important.

I also agree with Jeff's post that Brent's boats have a market and a lot going for them, beauty be damned. But an overbuilt steel 36' boat with, as many have, steel masts?

In a powerboat it translates to fuel economy, also a good thing.


----------



## MikeJohns

PCP said:


> I would say that very few top NA are designing steel boats, not even big steel yachts. Big steel yachts used to be made of steel and brands like Perini or Jongert used to build in steel but not anymore............


Hi Paulo

Alloy is a much better material for these sorts of boats, and particularly production metal boats. 
These were often not built with any though to longevity. Fitouts are often glued together and seamless, they look pretty but have to be destroyed to inspect or repair the hull. Hull repair costs are usually eclipsed by the necessity to remove and rebuild the interior. Neither is much thought given to ingress of water from the inevitable leaking ports and hatches that plague steel boats over time unless they are well designed.

Their are still some issues with production alloy boats. but generally it's limited to more localized areas. Steel boats need good design to be low maintenance, but it is possible. As I said earlier in this thread their are many venerable sailboats of great vintage in common use with steel hulls.

If I had the money and was having a custom sailboat boat built I'd use alloy, it's a gift currently given the energy it takes to produce it.


----------



## mitiempo

bobperry said:


> When all this is written down my name will be there. I know that. No societies. not nothin'.
> Just Bob Perry.
> 
> Maybe I could have BFD after my name. Bob Perry BFD. I like that.
> 
> I just saw all those huge boats Paulo posted.
> Oooooooo.
> I think I'll just slink off to my corner now.


Your name is there now Bob. Just because Kasten belongs to everything but the PTA doesn't mean much to most. I doubt any except his customers could name one of his designs. Maybe even some of his customers couldn't name one.

As far as Paulo's post of beautiful boats, notice he posted it twice to try and get more thanks possibly.


----------



## smackdaddy

Thanks guys. Very educational stuff.


----------



## MikeJohns

mitiempo said:


> Mike
> I agree with most of your post except for the part quoted. I can't think of any sailboat that cannot benefit from a lighter hull, given adequate strength. Whether a light or heavy design ballast/disp ratio is important. If not ballast, load carrying ability as most cruisers end up overloaded. In a smaller boat, under 45' to 50' it is even more important. .........................


You design a boat based on a list of requirements, target performance is one. Most cruisers for example want reasonable performance and seldom really push their boats on a passage because it's hard on gear and often uncomfortable.

Anyway from a design perspective.... Lets say you have a target waterplane area, displacement range, roll inertia righting moment and utlimate AVS, then you sketch a midship section with the required draft and beam then pick a desirable prismatic coeff and wrap your lines around the above. So the hullform and mass are dictated, then the hull material , fitout, machinery, rig ,stores..... then you go round a few times till it all falls into place....eventually.

Within your weights study one component is the hull material. With a heavier displacement boat the difference in hull material between alloy and steel as a % of the total Displacement can be insignificant, especially as the boat gets bigger.


----------



## PCP

MikeJohns said:


> Y...
> Within your weights study one component is the hull material. With a heavier displacement boat the difference in hull material between alloy and steel as a % of the total Displacement can be insignificant, especially as the boat gets bigger.


Yes but heavy displacement boats are quickly becoming a thing of the past. Even the type of boats that once used to be high displacement boats are today medium to light boats by 30 years ago parameters.

regards

Paulo


----------



## mitiempo

MikeJohns said:


> You design a boat based on a list of requirements, target performance is one. Most cruisers for example want reasonable performance and seldom really push their boats on a passage because it's hard on gear and often uncomfortable.
> 
> Anyway from a design perspective.... Lets say you have a target waterplane area, displacement range, roll inertia righting moment and utlimate AVS, then you sketch a midship section with the required draft and beam then pick a desirable prismatic coeff and wrap your lines around the above. So the hullform and mass are dictated, then the hull material , fitout, machinery, rig ,stores..... then you go round a few times till it all falls into place....eventually.
> 
> Within your weights study one component is the hull material. With a heavier displacement boat the difference in hull material between alloy and steel as a % of the total Displacement can be insignificant, especially as the boat gets bigger.


I can see the hull weight means less on a Colin Archer or Westsail type design but it still takes away from ballast weight even on those designs. If it doesn't then you need more sail area as the weight has increased and with more sail area you need more stability (ballast) to stand up to it.....

I don't think any reputable designer would say that hull weight is not important. And as Paulo states above the heavy boats are really not built today in any number.


----------



## MikeJohns

PCP said:


> Yes but heavy displacement boats are quickly becoming a thing of the past. Even the type of boats that once used to be high displacement boats are today medium to light boats by 30 years ago parameters.
> 
> regards
> 
> Paulo


There are always trends, and heavy boats are expensive so there's a sweet spot for manufacturers where scantlings are not onerous and generous sail area to Displacement is achieved at lower cost. And they are the certainly boats of choice for a lot of people and they suit some sailing lifestyles admirably.

The heavier the boat the greater the loads the the more costly the material and the larger the required sail area for the same performance. But the flip side is greater comfort both at sea and at anchor. Also a greater internal volume and an increased 'homeliness' feel of the boat, and alos the greater it's stores carrying ability. 
But not a good cash cow for production boat builders because most of the target market cross bays not oceans .

They are certainly not becoming a thing of the past, just they suit a different lifestyle to the raft of production boats that fill marinas in the clement sailing areas of the world.

Look at the sailboats in my area where any passage offshore ( and often coastal) is 'boisterous', probably close to 70% of cruising sailboats are medium heavy to heavy displacment and nearly all the offshore cruising boats that cruise into the Pacific from here are. Popular designs from NZ and Australian designers abound here. Multihulls are almost non existant here, rough water strong variable winds and good deep anchorages and few marinas, conditions that are often the hallmark of higher latitude sailing around the globe.

In other areas with more benign conditions you'll hear the multitude of multihull owners declaring that monohulls are a thing of the past. Monohulls carry ballast and weight is bad..............


----------



## outbound

Thanks Guys- Enjoyed the discussion of Al my last post precipitated which encourages me to try again.
I truly, truly love my boat so please don't take this the wrong way. If I had no financial restrictions I would build a one off utilizing modern wood epoxy techniques. With advancement in fabric technologies and available of woods from around the world I would have hull construction derived from an outline offered around 10 years ago in Wooden Boat.
The inner core would be edge nailed strip plank using plastic or bronze nails and a low density wood. This would be coated with double diagonals of appropriate fabric. Then a layer of hard wood laminates appropriate to vector analysis of forces applied. Then on the outside lay up of puncture and abrasion resistant fabric. The design would incorporate integral epoxy coated tanks centrally and water tight bulk heads fore and aft( just forward of rudder(s) posts). Through hulls would all be stand pipes or in sea chests. 
At present the military have utilized fabrics as armor. Wood for weight remains an excellent construction material both in terms of strength, acoustic/thermal properties and lack of restriction in developing complex shapes.
Given there are so many sailors with much, much greater resources than I can anyone offer an explanation why we don't get a chance to drool over such boats.


----------



## MikeJohns

mitiempo said:


> .............
> I don't think any reputable designer would say that hull weight is not important. ..............


I said

" _With a heavier displacement boat the difference in hull material between alloy and steel as a % of the total Displacement can be insignificant, especially as the boat gets bigger._ "

All weight is important and is accounted for in a design but a design starts with displacement as one of the inputs ( underwater shape and volume) so all your weights add up to that displacement, there is an optimal range of position for the center of mass (called center of gravity) . It can be too low as well as too high. It's never a case of getting as much ballast as possible but only of getting a desirable range of righting moments.

If you achieve your target sail carrying ability ( well described as Delenbaugh angle) and get your desired AVS and roll period for the laden craft then you achieve your goal in the weight and stability criteria of the design.

A designer can easily make a sailboat miserably uncomfortable in a seaway by giving it too high a righting moment. Just as a lightweight boat with a relatively large waterplane area can give a very wild ride in a seaway. One reason a lot of would be offshore cruises go belly up after the first offshore leg if they encounter a blow. It can be darn miserable offshore in a light boat in a boisterous sea.

So where you 'come from' with arguments about weight depends on what you want out of a design. The best advice for anyone and especially designers is to sail offshore on different types of boats and see the difference.

Ted Brewer termed a ratio he called the comfort ratio which is worth looking at if you want a rough comprehension of comfort factors.
But naval architecture now has a raft of good software tools to predict boat motion and generate what are called RAO's. It's often an eye opener for people to run a few different designs through something like Formsys Seakeeper and simply show them the difference.


----------



## PCP

MikeJohns said:


> I said
> 
> " _With a heavier displacement boat the difference in hull material between alloy and steel as a % of the total Displacement can be insignificant, especially as the boat gets bigger._ "
> 
> All weight is important and is accounted for in a design but a design starts with displacement as one of the inputs ( underwater shape and volume) so all your weights add up to that displacement, there is an optimal range of position for the center of mass (called center of gravity) . It can be too low as well as too high. It's never a case of getting as much ballast as possible but only of getting a desirable range of righting moments.
> 
> If you achieve your target sail carrying ability ( well described as Delenbaugh angle) and get your desired AVS and roll period for the laden craft then you achieve your goal in the weight and stability criteria of the design.
> 
> A designer can easily make a sailboat miserably uncomfortable in a seaway by giving it too high a righting moment. Just as a lightweight boat with a relatively large waterplane area can give a very wild ride in a seaway. One reason a lot of would be offshore cruises go belly up after the first offshore leg if they encounter a blow. It can be darn miserable offshore in a light boat in a boisterous sea.
> 
> So where you 'come from' with arguments about weight depends on what you want out of a design. The best advice for anyone and especially designers is to sail offshore on different types of boats and see the difference.
> 
> Ted Brewer termed a ratio he called the comfort ratio which is worth looking at if you want a rough comprehension of comfort factors.
> But naval architecture now has a raft of good software tools to predict boat motion and generate what are called RAO's. It's often an eye opener for people to run a few different designs through something like Formsys Seakeeper and simply show them the difference.


I don't want to start an argument but that is a pretty conservative talk specially in what regards that story about Ted Brewer comfort ratio and also about *"The best advice for anyone and especially designers is to sail offshore on different types of boats and see the difference"*.

You know, many of the best French designers had an offshore racing past with lots of transats over their bellies and certainly they have also sailed old designed heavy boats and what they design as passagemakers and voyage boats certainly would not meat that criteria of yours regarding Ted Brewer comfort ratio.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Gosh, so many experts here it's intimidating.


----------



## skygazer

bobperry said:


> Gosh, so many experts here it's intimidating.


 

But thought provoking!


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Gosh, so many experts here it's intimidating.


Yes, you say a lot of things like that and they don't mean nothing. What about saying what you thing about the subject?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

MikeJohns said:


> There are always trends, and heavy boats are expensive so there's a sweet spot for manufacturers where scantlings are not onerous and generous sail area to Displacement is achieved at lower cost.


A top performance bluewater cruiser made of carbon is certainly not less expensive than an old designed heavy cruiser.



MikeJohns said:


> And they are the certainly boats of choice for a lot of people and they suit some sailing lifestyles admirably. The heavier the boat the greater the loads the the more costly the material and the larger the required sail area for the same performance. But the flip side is greater comfort both at sea and at anchor. Also a greater internal volume and an increased 'homeliness' feel of the boat, and alos the greater it's stores carrying ability.
> But not a good cash cow for production boat builders because most of the target market cross bays not oceans .
> 
> They are certainly not becoming a thing of the past, just they suit a different lifestyle to the raft of production boats that fill marinas in the clement sailing areas of the world.


 You know, there are a market for voyage production boats, much smaller than the main market because has you said the ones that voyage extensively are a small percentage of sailors, but the market exists and several brands work on it. Also several top NA offer different types of voyage boats. I don't know a single one that can be considered heavy, the kind of boat that would not matter having a hull built in steel instead of aluminium.

Perhaps you don't mind to tell of what modern designs you are talking about, those heavy boats that suit many and who is designing them?



MikeJohns said:


> Look at the sailboats in my area where any passage offshore ( and often coastal) is 'boisterous', probably close to 70% of cruising sailboats are medium heavy to heavy displacment and nearly all the offshore cruising boats that cruise into the Pacific from here are. Popular designs from NZ and Australian designers abound here. Multihulls are almost non existant here, rough water strong variable winds and good deep anchorages and few marinas, conditions that are often the hallmark of higher latitude sailing around the globe.
> 
> In other areas with more benign conditions you'll hear the multitude of multihull owners declaring that monohulls are a thing of the past. Monohulls carry ballast and weight is bad..............


I don't agree that a big offshore well designed multihull is less seaworthy than a monohull. 
Many cruise extensively and circumnavigate and are the boat of choice for many that voyage extensively.

You mean that in all those boats you see on that area of yours you don't see a single modern boat, I mean contemporary designs? They are all old designed heavy boats?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## aeventyr60

PCP said:


> Yes, you say a lot of things like that and they don't mean nothing. What about saying what you thing about the subject?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


BFD probably sums it up quite well.


----------



## PCP

aeventyr60 said:


> BFD probably sums it up quite well.


BFD? What do you mean?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Gosh, so many experts here it's intimidating.


I just _seem_ like an expert. I actually know absolutely nothing.

Oh, you mean the other guys.


----------



## MikeJohns

PCP said:


> I don't want to start an argument but that is a pretty conservative talk specially in what regards that story about Ted Brewer comfort ratio and also about *"The best advice for anyone and especially designers is to sail offshore on different types of boats and see the difference"*.
> 
> You know, many of the best French designers had an offshore racing past with lots of transats over their bellies and certainly they have also sailed old designed heavy boats and what they design as passagemakers and voyage boats certainly would not meat that criteria of yours regarding Ted Brewer comfort ratio.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Like the racing ULDB master French sailor Eric Taberly , 
Who spent all his other sailing time (when not on a mad dash) on heavy displacement designs that he loved with a passion 

There's often a sneering contempt from one type of boat owner for another persons choice. But I find that people who have actually wracked up a lot of sea time are never judgmental. All sailing is fun all boats have their pluses and minuses that's the nature of optimising a design for a particular use.


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## mitiempo

I would certainly appreciate Bob Perry's opinion on this subject of weight.


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## MikeJohns

PCP said:


> ..........
> I don't agree that a big offshore well designed multihull is less seaworthy than a monohull.


Nor I providing it's well sailed....



PCP said:


> ..........You mean that in all those boats you see on that area of yours you don't see a single modern boat, I mean contemporary designs? They are all old designed heavy boats?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I said 70% were heavier designs. That leaves 30% as lighter boats, of those boats few sail across the Tasman but are used more for coastal cruising and racing.

My wife and I have two sailboats, a 45 foot performance cruiser ( Adams 45) that's great for coastal sailing, does 8 knots without being pushed too hard, has a fin keel, skeg rudder and is a real joy to sail. But she exceeds my limits for motion sickness in heavy weather offshore and renders many of the crew I've had pretty miserable if it blows a bit. 
My wife isn't keen to go offshore on her anymore as the motion sends her to her bunk for days of rough weather as it did another female friend the entire trip from Auckland to Fiji. So we decided to get a heavier boat and a bigger boat with more comforts for an ageing lady aboard a sailboat 

Our other boat acquired two years ago later is a much heavier both by weight and by ratios, steel ketch, it's a bit longer at 52' LWL ( a more recent Pugh design) that performs about the same, that's significant, it's a dog relatively but it's no slower than the other boat and it is a real home to be aboard long term, it's also surprisingly easy to sail and so much more comfortable in heavy weather I'm happy with it but my wife is ecstatic.

I still prefer to sail the lighter boat. Its exciting 

Where do you base your boat? Portugal has an exposed west coast and I experienced a westerly gale off Lisbon a few years ago. Nice hassle free anchorage at Faro but Lisbon is a bit busy.


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## bobperry

Paulo:
Chill.
You know I am a smart ass.
I am enjoying reading what other people have to say. If I feel the need to chime in and contribute I most certainly will. Always have. Have you not been paying attention? So far I think the information being spread around is good and I have nothing of value to add.

I'll just sit back here on the Group W bench and read and learn. Mike is doing a fine job.

(Paulo is not going to have a clue what the "group W bench" is. He can Google it.)


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## blt2ski

Group W bench.....hmmmmmmmm.........is that like the back of the bus seat area?!?!?!?!? or some other equal where the SA's go to kaitz about what is going on the front?!?!?!?

I'd probably like that place.....lololol

saw sliver from out side the bldg yesterday, looking like she is getting ready to get a rig on her, splash then out to BI!

Marty


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## PCP

MikeJohns said:


> ...
> There's often a sneering contempt from one type of boat owner for another persons choice. But I find that people who have actually wracked up a lot of sea time are never judgmental. All sailing is fun all boats have their pluses and minuses that's the nature of optimising a design for a particular use.


Yes, I agree about that but that has nothing about the point in discussion that is: Modern designed passage makers and voyage boats are not heavy boats, considering heavy the type of boats that would make no difference in having a hull made of steel or aluminium.

That kind of heavy boats, in what concerns sailboat design, are a thing of the past. That does not mean that they are not still used or even that they can be suited for what they do, only that in what regards today's design options and knowledge it is possible to design an overall better voyage boat than those types of boats and that's why there is not any top NA still designing them, even as a on off.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

bobperry said:


> ...
> You know I am a smart ass.
> ...


No, I did not know that

But I have to say that I find you a pain in the ass sometimes. Imagine that all here would have your attitude with sarcastic comments. We would not go far as a forum

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP

MikeJohns said:


> ...
> 
> I said 70% were heavier designs. That leaves 30% as lighter boats, of those boats few sail across the Tasman but are used more for coastal cruising and racing.


Mike that was not the point neither what I have asked. It is normal that most of the boats cruising out there are older boats and therefore heavy.

What I have asked was about among those that are very recent designs say, the last 10 years, what are the ones you know that are heavy and by heavy I mean heavy, like they were 30 or 40 years ago, not medium weight boat. What I was saying is that nobody relevant is designing heavy boats anymore as voyage boats.



MikeJohns said:


> My wife and I have two sailboats, a 45 foot performance cruiser ( Adams 45) that's great for coastal sailing, does 8 knots without being pushed too hard, has a fin keel, skeg rudder and is a real joy to sail. But she exceeds my limits for motion sickness in heavy weather offshore and renders many of the crew I've had pretty miserable if it blows a bit.
> My wife isn't keen to go offshore on her anymore as the motion sends her to her bunk for days of rough weather as it did another female friend the entire trip from Auckland to Fiji. So we decided to get a heavier boat and a bigger boat with more comforts for an ageing lady aboard a sailboat
> 
> Our other boat acquired two years ago later is a much heavier both by weight and by ratios, steel ketch, it's a bit longer at 52' LWL ( a more recent Pugh design) that performs about the same, that's significant, it's a dog relatively but it's no slower than the other boat and it is a real home to be aboard long term, it's also surprisingly easy to sail and so much more comfortable in heavy weather I'm happy with it but my wife is ecstatic.


Yes, I know that for some the motion of an heavy boat is better in what regards seasickness but not for all. For some the motion of a lighter boat is less stressful. Jeff has a very good thread about it. Some are more prone to get seasick with the bigger but slower movements of an heavy boat, some with the sharper but less pronounced movements of a lighter boat. . Jeff mentioned medical studies that confirm that fact.

I fully agree with you that one should find the type of boat that suits him better and that are not a single type of boat suited for all even in what regards a voyage boat.



MikeJohns said:


> Where do you base your boat? Portugal has an exposed west coast and I experienced a westerly gale off Lisbon a few years ago. Nice hassle free anchorage at Faro but Lisbon is a bit busy.


I have my boat in Fumicino near Rome, Italy because I am cruising Greece and probably Turkey and because I found there the best shipyard, but that is a temporary thing. I had my boat in several locations in Portugal : Lagos (very good but expensive), Figueira da Foz and Nazaré, all nice places and the two last not expensive.

Yes the Portuguese west coast is exposed and I had to sail out of here to find out that 20 to 30ft waves were not that common but in fact I found the short disorganized med seas are harder to sail in a f7/8 than than the seas of my homeland.

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

I'll post some drawings of a 50' LOA, 50,000 lb. ,boat I did a few years back, later today Paulo. It was my last heavy boat. It is an alu boat.

Marty:
Think Arlo Guthrie.


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## bobperry




----------



## bobperry




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## bobperry

YONI was built in alu by Jespersens in Canada. She is a beautiful, very comforable, stable and strong boat designed to cross oceans. She is heavy, 50,000 lbs. with 20,000 lbs, of lead ballast. This is exactly the boat the cient asked for. He loved it. But it is not a boat Paulo would enjoy. And as Paulo has been pointing out, this was a very expensive build, well over one million USD.


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## bobperry

YONI was one of the last designs I drew by hand. I used pencil and ink on 4 mil mylar. I drew on both sides of the mylar to get different effects and line qualities. It was fun but changes to the design were a PITA compared to acad. There is about 30 sheets of drawings, including schematics for all systems to this design.


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## outbound

Bob it's a very beautiful boat. What's been her history since launch? Would you care to speak to mike's point? My limited experience has been similar to his. I choose to go with moderate displacement in the hopes of getting the best of both worlds and have yet to be disappointed. The generic terms " light" " moderate" and heavy seem to vary greatly depending on who is talking. What do you mean when using these terms?


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## bobperry

Out:
Thanks for the compliment on YONI. The original client sold her. He enbjoyed creating the boat but in the end had no interest in sailing it. It was bought by a Canadian pilot.

I've been staying out of this discussion because much of the time I hae hard time understanding what the "argument" is. It seems to me, and I don't mean to insult anyone, that you guys tend to disect a boat into independant elements and discuss the design as a reflection of trying to tie those elements together. I don't aproach design work that way. I have a client who knows what he wants and I give him that boat as I see it. Whether to go light or heavy is never a question. We know that when we begin. Then I do my best to match the scantlings with the displ and intended use of the boat. I wuld almost always choose weight sensitive construction. Every pound taken out of the structure can go into the ballast. But I am conservative with structure. Some light boats are only possible with light scantlings. Look at the SLIVER project. That boat would not work with a heavy hull structure. I can work in heavy boats or light boats. It depends what the client wants. Both types have their distinct advantages. If you are going offshore and want lots of tankage you are not going to get it in a light boat. PERIOD.
For me displacement will be a fucntion of the intended use of the boat coupled with the owner's preferences and sailing style.


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## outbound

Thoughtful answer.thank you. I think of boats kind of like living creatures. They evolve to fit a ecological niche. To say an elephant is designed better than a tiger is foolish.


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## djodenda

Bob:

As I am just beginning to try and understand hull design, I tentatively ask this question about Yoni..... Seems like a lot of deadrise to me.. How come?

But I can confidently say that I got the Alice's Restaurant reference without resorting to any electronic media. Saw Arlo live once. He puts on a great show


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## bobperry

Denda:
You got it.

The deadrise to YONI is identical to the deadrise on a Little Harbor Hood design that happened top be hauled out at the yard a half block from my office in Ballard. The clent walked me down to the yard with a bevel gauge and we measured the deadrise on the Hood boat. The client said, "That's what I want." I drew several sets of lines. We had several full model cut by CNC out of foam to insure the client was reading the lines correctly. In the end we setlkled on a hull when I tild the client, "Even I can't tell the difference anymore so I doubt the water will either." I had worked with hi deadrise before, Valiant 40 for one, so I was comfortable with it and it suited to a T the type of boat we were after.

You see, I don't figure out a new design as I go along. I have it "figured out" before I start. I have an image of the finished boat in my head when I start drawing. I have to. I have to know where I am going before deciding which direction to start out on. The boat will undergo changes during the design process. That is inevitable. But I do not start with a D/L of 250 and part way through say, "Jumpin' Jehosaphat that's heavy. I'd better reduce it to 150." It's very hard to explain the design process but it must be wholistic.

I remember a famous quote from a sculpture when asked how he managed such a likeness of Lincoln in marble. His reply was something like, "It's easy you just cut away all the parts that don't look like Lincoln."
Creativity is difficult to explain. It has a lot to do with maintaining my lifestyle.


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## outbound

Makes you think something is lost when the current crop of boats are designed in accordance to computer generated predictions of performance. Heard it said you, Carl, Ted, + Francis among others could see where each drop of water would flow past a hull at each degree of tilt and each pound of load. Now the fluid dynamics are generated by the super computer which then dictates hull and appendages. The extreme example being the glorious U.S. win in the A.C. where it seemed clear the geeks not the sailors won the races.


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## bobperry

Here is another 50+'er. It is also a passagemaker and took the owner to New Zealand and back without incident. This is a much lighter boat than YONI with a very different hull shape,. There is still some sdeadrise but not very much. In most conditions this would be a faster boat than YONI. although not in heavy air upwind where the bulk of YOIN would provide a stable and comfortable ride.

Different boats for different folks. There are some that cling to one type with white knuckles and will resort to personal attacks in order to defend their choice. That's just ignorant. These people need to realize that there have been changes and improvements in yacht design and it's not a "one size fits all world." But they take it all personally and resist being open to changes. I like all kinds of boats, light, heavy, power, sail, workboats, dinghies. I just like boats and all the varieties of types they come in.


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## bobperry

Out:
Sorry to dissapoint you but I have no direct link to knowing what the water is doing. Wish I did. I try my best. But I don't ignore geeky advantages when they are available. I'll use every toool I can find. I'll figure it out one day.

I'll have to keep practicing.


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## outbound

I have spent a good part of my life trying to understand how brains work. There may be a lot going on in yours below your conscious perception given the nature of your output over the years. This may be why in this thread and others you repetitively say how difficult it is for you to describe the creative process. Your parietal associative cortex may be working overtime when you are sleeping or playing with your grandkids so when you sit down to the board to draw the work has mainly been done before hand. As they say enjoy gods gifts- go with the flow. 
Agree with you as in any human endeavor improvements are both evolutionary and through paradigm shifts. It's foolish to not recognize this. Still, Newtonian physics is more appropriate in most worldly applications then general theory. My argument with Paulo has been my perception many boats currently place less emphasis on biomechanics and intended use when addressing the small segment of long term cruisers. I'm sure Steve is happier in his Boreal then he was in his Mason. This is not to say both are great boats. However, I think neither he nor I would be happy in a Open 40 derived boat. Watching Paulo's videos makes me appreciate the genus of those boats but I have no desire to own one.
Still wonder why your clients and others don't build incorporating wood epoxy or wood hybrid technologies? To my knowledge in my surrounds only the folks in Nova Scotia have any significant output.


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## bobperry

"Your parietal associative cortex "
I'm pretty sure I don't have one of those. Is it like Gortex?

I don't really see any "argument" with you and Paulo. I think much of the time you are both saying the same thing just in different ways. I respect both of your opinions.


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## djodenda

I do my best design "thinking" when I am just waking up in the morning.. 

Second best time is in the shower. When I first moved to Seattle in the winter of 2005, I lived on my Catalina 22 in the Edmonds marina. Showers cost $.25 for 3 minutes. I kept a jar on my desk. If people wanted me to figure things out for them, I would suggest that they deposit a quarter in the jar, and I would spend an extra 3 minutes in the shower thinking about a solution.

It worked.

Seriously.


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## PCP

bobperry said:


> YONI was built in alu by Jespersens in Canada. She is a beautiful, very comforable, stable and strong boat designed to cross oceans. She is heavy, 50,000 lbs. with 20,000 lbs, of lead ballast. This is exactly the boat the cient asked for. He loved it. But it is not a boat Paulo would enjoy. And as Paulo has been pointing out, this was a very expensive build, well over one million USD.


Bob, I guess that is some kind of an answer, a twisted one, but an answer

Your last heavy boat was designed 20 years ago (because the owner wanted that way) and the boat cannot even be considered heavy by the old patterns I have been talking about.

The boat has a Displacement/ Length Ratio of 273.9 and what is considered heavy by those standards are boats 300

Regarding not being the type of boat I would enjoy now, that is not fair to that design, a 20 year old one. In fact I am quite sure I would not want now any 20 year's old design.

The right question is if I would have enjoyed that design 20 years ago. I guess that being so twisted as you I can say that 12 years ago this was my dream boat. I guess you can find some similitude even if this is designed 8 years later and therefore a bit less conservative:







Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

Paulo:
You are lucky in that you are open to the new and you know very well what works best to give you the utmost enjoyment under sail. Performance is always a moving target. It was only 39 years ago (wow!) that some people thought the Valiant 40 with a D/L of 250 was "too light" to be a serious cruising boat. A well known designer at the time wrote that in YACHTING magazine. But he's not well known today and I doubt you have even heard of him. That tells me something.

I'm afraid any answers I may have will continue to be "twisted". I want to leave plenty of room for personal preferences. God forbid I fall into the BS approach that "It's my way or you are stupid" trap.

When people frequently ask me what boat I would choose for myself I am hard pressed to answer. I think it would depend on the day, the conditions, what I wanted to do with the boat and my mood.

Today it is 28 degrees F here at the shack. There is no wind. There are no waves. I think if I were going to head off for a few days today I would pick a pilot house BaBa 40. I could motor along at 7.5 knots snug inside at the inside steering station nursing a rum toddy with some nice Schubert on the hi-fi, some beef short ribs braising on the stove and my dog curled up on the settee. I'd pick a quiet harbor, maybe Matts Matts, anchor and relax comfortably depressed.


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## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> Chill.
> You know I am a smart ass.
> I am enjoying reading what other people have to say. If I feel the need to chime in and contribute I most certainly will. Always have. Have you not been paying attention? So far I think the information being spread around is good and I have nothing of value to add.
> 
> I'll just sit back here on the Group W bench and read and learn. Mike is doing a fine job.
> 
> (Paulo is not going to have a clue what the "group W bench" is. He can Google it.)


*I* had to look it up, only to discover that it's where I've been sitting all these years.


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## bobperry

Very funny Jon.
Me too.
Not sure how Alice's Restaurant would play in Portugal. It was a time specific piece.


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## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo:
> You are lucky in that you are open to the new and you know very well what works best to give you the utmost enjoyment under sail. Performance is always a moving target. It was only 39 years ago (wow!) that some people thought the Valiant 40 with a D/L of 250 was "too light" to be a serious cruising boat. A well known designer at the time wrote that in YACHTING magazine. But he's not well known today and I doubt you have even heard of him. That tells me something.
> 
> I'm afraid any answers I may have will continue to be "twisted". I want to leave plenty of room for personal preferences. God forbid I fall into the BS approach that "It's my way or you are stupid" trap.
> 
> When people frequently ask me what boat I would choose for myself I am hard pressed to answer. I think it would depend on the day, the conditions, what I wanted to do with the boat and my mood.
> 
> Today it is 28 degrees F here at the shack. There is no wind. There are no waves. I think if I were going to head off for a few days today I would pick a pilot house BaBa 40. I could motor along at 7.5 knots snug inside at the inside steering station nursing a rum toddy with some nice Schubert on the hi-fi, some beef short ribs braising on the stove and my dog curled up on the settee. I'd pick a quiet harbor, maybe Matts Matts, anchor and relax comfortably depressed.


Bob, I don't buy that. Yes performance is a moving target and yes I too like all types of boats for all types of sailing and cruising and I understand that today you would wanted to pick a boat with the characteristics of a Pilot house but if you today designed a boat to fulfill the same criteria of the Baba 40, you would be designing a different boat, one that would be an all around better performer and you know that too.

So yes, there is boats designed to perform better in many different situations, from daysailors to voayage boats but the ones that are made today for fulfill the same functions are all around better boats than the ones designed 20 years ago, not to mention 30, 50 or 100 years ago and the reason is the same. Yacht design is in constant evolution and more knowledge and more modern materials allows for better sailingboats.

Regarding heavy boats, boats with a Displacement/ Length Ratio over 300, they are not used anymore in boat design. Even the ones that today are considered heavy, like the Najad, Halberg-Rassy, Oyster or Amel are in fact medium height boats and they are used and designed to perform the same type of sailing old heavy boats were designed to perform, including comfort, only they do it better, faster and more comfortably.

Regarding having a boat, we all would like to have a boat for each situation and type of weather we sail but as that is not possible choices and compromises have to be made regarding the boat that better fulfill the conditions and the pleasures we want to have while sailing and there are many possible choices even in what regards the market.

Regarding the boat that I posted, it was a passage maker. My ideal boat 4 years later was still a passage maker but a better boat, one faster and more polyvalent but some more years later it was not a passage maker anymore. I found out that my wife would not sail with me if I crossed oceans, I find out also that I do no wanted to be faraway from my kids and family for years and that I would prefer to cruise in the spring and summer but to be with the family in the winter. That translated in a new type of boat as my ideal boat. Even the same sailor, if he is not dumb, can have, according to his changing desires and situations different types of ideal boats along his live but rarely are the ones that can have 3 or 4 boats, one for each particular occasion

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

"Regarding heavy boats, boats with a Displacement/ Length Ratio over 300, they are not used anymore."

Paulo:
That is just not at all true. You are living in a vacuum. I have several designs that have full keels and D/L's around or even over 300. There are about 100 Baba 40's and they are all over. We must have half a dozen here in the PNW. We get at least three every year at the Perry Rendezvous. My pal raced his to Hawaii a few years back. They are very much used.

George Day of BLUE WATER SAILING said a few years back that there are more Tayana 37's world cruising than any other boat. They are getting used. They built 600 Tayana 37's!!!

I have Baba 30's, Tashiba 31's, Tashiba 36's, CT 54's, CT56's all heavy boats with full keels and all seeing a lot of use today.

So when you say, "they are not used anymore" you could not be more wrong.

Maybe they go by you so fast that you don't even see them. They are all rockets.


----------



## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> Out:
> I can work in heavy boats or light boats. It depends what the client wants. Both types have their distinct advantages. If you are going offshore and want lots of tankage you are not going to get it in a light boat. PERIOD.
> For me displacement will be a fucntion of the intended use of the boat coupled with the owner's preferences and sailing style.


Bob,

As I read this, (and some of MikeJohns comments) there is a piece of this quote that I would like to comment on and hear both your's and Mike's thoughts. I know that I have stated my viewpoint on this on any number of occasions around here and its a position that Paulo perhaps would agree with as well.

I think that the terms " heavy boats" or "light boats" are somewhat misapplied in common usage. In my mind, these terms get applied in a manner that is shorthand for "heavy boats for their length" or "light boats for their length". My sense is that that partricular 'shorthand' sends the wrong message.

When I think about how 'big' a boat needs to be for any given owner, it starts with its stated purpose in terms of where and how the owner's plan to sail the boat, how many people are involved. That somewhat dictates the carrying capacity and the need for more or less robustness.

Once you get to a needed carrying capacity, and bearing in mind the need for more or less robustness, from there I would think its pretty easy to back into an approximate target displacement for that vessel fully loaded and from there its capacity empty.

At that point it becomes a question of picking the "just right" length. I know that there are folks who prefer a short boat for its weight. But disregarding those folk's personal preference for a moment, I suggest that the science would say that, within reason, a longer boat of the same displacement and robustness is likely to offer better accommodations, better motion comfort, more seaworthiness, and better performance than a shorter boat of the same displacement. The longer for its weight boat should also be easier to sail to sail since it would be easier to design the boat with more stability, and a more efficient keel, rudder, and sail plan.

So, if I were going distance cruising I would inherently choose the longer boat for its displacement, specifically to improve seakindliness, with the improvement in performance being a secondary consideration. That would of course fly in the face of the US court of public opinion, which says, using the usual shorthand, "a heavy boat (for its length) is more comfortable" when in fact the reality is a longer boat for its equal weight is more comfortable.

In reality, when you look at the trends in what we normally might think of as modern distance cruisers, they are tending towards being longer boats for their weight, and seem to deliver a more comfortable motion than shorter equal weight boats. That trend has been going on nearly as long as the 50 plus years that I have been sailing.

But the other oddities of perception which does not seem to make sense is the way that D/L's are bandied about. Obviously, there is a good reason for L/D being based on waterline length. But over the period that I have been sailing, waterline length has gotten progressively longer relative to length on deck. I keep hearing people talk about the motion comfort of the good old boats with L/D's in the high 200's but in reality, modern boats are not all that much lighter for their lengths on deck. They just have longer water lines which make these boats appear to be much lighter when comparing L/D's. The real gotcha in that, is that if we compare two equal length on deck with equal displacements, all other things being approximately equal the boat with the longer waterline is likely to have the more comfortable motion. That of course also flies in the face of the beliefs rendered by the court of public opinion.

Any thoughts?

Jeff


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> "Regarding heavy boats, boats with a Displacement/ Length Ratio over 300, they are not used anymore."
> 
> Paulo:
> That is just not at all true. You are living in a vacuum. I have several designs that have full keels and D/L's around or even over 300. There are about 100 Baba 40's and they are all over. We must have half a dozen here in the PNW. We get at least three every year at the Perry Rendezvous. My pal raced his to Hawaii a few years back. They are very much used.
> 
> ...
> So when you say, "they are not used anymore" you could not be more wrong.
> 
> Maybe they go by you so fast that you don't even see them. They are all rockets.
> 
> ...


That's my time to say: chill out Bob

My poor English has some responsibility but you have completely misunderstood what I wanted to say. I was talking about a Displacement/ Length Ratio over 300 not being used anymore in boat design. I was talking about boat design but I edited the post anyway to be more clear. Any other way would not make any sense.

Sure, all those boats are rockets but less rockets then modern designed boats for the same funtion

We can say that in what regards contemporary yacht design we can say that any cruising boat with 10 years is not at the state of the art and a racing boat in less time, about 5 years. What I said regards this.

I don't now of any relevant designer that had designed for any type of sailing in the last 10 years a boat with a Displacement/ Length Ratio over 300.

Do you have designed any of those on the last 10 years?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## mitiempo

I think that the Displacement/Length ratio has nothing to do with the weight of a boat. It is an effective tool to compare 2 boats of the same type. But the boat with the lower D/L ratio is not necessarily lighter. There are cruising boats with D/L ratios under 100 that are very conservative and not super light racers, in fact not racers at all.


----------



## PCP

Jeff_H said:


> Bob,
> 
> As I read this, (and some of MikeJohns comments) there is a piece of this quote that I would like to comment on and hear both your's and Mike's thoughts. I know that I have stated my viewpoint on this on any number of occasions around here and its a position that Paulo perhaps would agree with as well.
> 
> I think that the terms " heavy boats" or "light boats" are somewhat misapplied in common usage. In my mind, these terms get applied in a manner that is shorthand for "heavy boats for their length" or "light boats for their length". My sense is that that partricular 'shorthand' sends the wrong message.
> 
> When I think about how 'big' a boat needs to be for any given owner, it starts with its stated purpose in terms of where and how the owner's plan to sail the boat, how many people are involved. That somewhat dictates the carrying capacity and the need for more or less robustness.
> 
> Once you get to a needed carrying capacity, and bearing in mind the need for more or less robustness, from there I would think its pretty easy to back into an approximate target displacement for that vessel fully loaded and from there its capacity empty.
> 
> At that point it becomes a question of picking the "just right" length. I know that there are folks who prefer a short boat for its weight. But disregarding those folk's personal preference for a moment, I suggest that the science would say that, within reason, a longer boat of the same displacement and robustness is likely to offer better accommodations, better motion comfort, more seaworthiness, and better performance than a shorter boat of the same displacement. The longer for its weight boat should also be easier to sail to sail since it would be easier to design the boat with more stability, and a more efficient keel, rudder, and sail plan.
> 
> So, if I were going distance cruising I would inherently choose the longer boat for its displacement, specifically to improve seakindliness, with the improvement in performance being a secondary consideration. That would of course fly in the face of the US court of public opinion, which says, using the usual shorthand, "a heavy boat (for its length) is more comfortable" when in fact the reality is a longer boat for its equal weight is more comfortable.
> 
> In reality, when you look at the trends in what we normally might think of as modern distance cruisers, they are tending towards being longer boats for their weight, and seem to deliver a more comfortable motion than shorter equal weight boats. That trend has been going on nearly as long as the 50 plus years that I have been sailing.
> 
> But the other oddities of perception which does not seem to make sense is the way that D/L's are bandied about. Obviously, there is a good reason for L/D being based on waterline length. But over the period that I have been sailing, waterline length has gotten progressively longer relative to length on deck. I keep hearing people talk about the motion comfort of the good old boats with L/D's in the high 200's but in reality, modern boats are not all that much lighter for their lengths on deck. They just have longer water lines which make these boats appear to be much lighter when comparing L/D's. The real gotcha in that, is that if we compare two equal length on deck with equal displacements, all other things being approximately equal the boat with the longer waterline is likely to have the more comfortable motion. That of course also flies in the face of the beliefs rendered by the court of public opinion.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Jeff


Yes, I would say that is obvious...even if not for all

Nice post Jeff.

You talk about public opinion and I would say that's all that very clear to an European sailor and that's why you see bigger boats here.

I would say that my 41 ft boat is under average in the med, and much under average if we consider only recent boats.

Average if not yet, is going faster to around 45ft and it is not by accident that you see a range like Sense from Benetau, one that does not point to charter but to the ones that buy boats after retirement to live a considerable time in them, start at 46ft.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Jeff_H

mitiempo said:


> I think that the Displacement/Length ratio has nothing to do with the weight of a boat..........There are cruising boats with D/L ratios under 100 that are very conservative and not super light racers, in fact not racers at all.


With all due respect, I am not sure that you precisely meant either of those things. While D/L is intended to be a non-scalar way of comparing the relative displacement of boats, obviously, the D in the D/L is weight, so weight does something to do with D/L. 

But I think that the second sentence above is probably a typo. I suspect that probably (and would agree with you if) you meant to say, there are cruising boats with D/L ratios under 200 that are very conservative and not super light racers, in fact not racers at all.


----------



## mitiempo

Jeff_H said:


> With all due respect, I am not sure that you precisely meant either of those things. While D/L is intended to be a non-scalar way of comparing the relative displacement of boats, obviously, the D in the D/L is weight, so weight does something to do with D/L.
> 
> But I think that the second sentence above is probably a typo. I suspect that probably (and would agree with you if) you meant to say, there are cruising boats with D/L ratios under 200 that are very conservative and not super light racers, in fact not racers at all.


Lets take a boat like the Alberg 37, D/L of 403 on a 26.5' waterline. If the waterline is drawn out to say 32' it would be heavier with the added material weight, not lighter. But it would have a lower D/L ratio.


----------



## mitiempo

Jeff_H said:


> But I think that the second sentence above is probably a typo. I suspect that probably (and would agree with you if) you meant to say, there are cruising boats with D/L ratios under 200 that are very conservative and not super light racers, in fact not racers at all.


Sundeer 60 has a D/L of 82 and cruising weights were part of the design from the beginning. Pretty conservative I think.



If you compare the Sundeer to the Morris 51 (Paine) the numbers are interesting.

Length Sundeer 60' Morris 51'
W/L 59' 45'
Beam 13.75' 14.25'
Disp 37,800 35,000
Sail Area 1240 1134
Hull speed 10.29 8.99
Sail area/disp 17.61 16.96
D/L ratio 82 171

The Sundeer is not lighter as its D/L ratio suggests.


----------



## bobperry

"Originally Posted by mitiempo 
I" think that the Displacement/Length ratio has nothing to do with the weight of a boat 

Wrong!
D/L has everything to do with the weigtht of the boat, weight relative to DWL. That's the point.
Don't kid yourself. That Sundeer is way overweight. Look at how it's dragging its transom. Do you think it was designed to ride like that?

Paulo:
"but you have completely misunderstood what I wanted to say."
( I say that to my wife all the time.)
I only know what you say. If you say it incorrectly I can understand. But I am not a mind reader. There is no way I can know what you "wanted to say". I did think it was a very odd thing for you to say. But no problem. Your English is far better than my Portuguese or Spanish or French (you probably speak Italian too). So I applaud you for being able to communicate in English at the level you do. You contribute a lot here. Technical subjects are very difficult in a 2nd language. I struggle with Mandarin Chinese but I wouldn't attempt a technical discussion. We are very lucky as a group to understand each other as well as we do.

I think I'll go design a boat. But I'll make dinner first.


----------



## Jeff_H

mitiempo said:


> Lets take a boat like the Alberg 37, D/L of 403 on a 26.5' waterline. If the waterline is drawn out to say 32' it would be heavier with the added material weight, not lighter. But it would have a lower D/L ratio.


Maybe I can explain it like this. First of all, if we are comparing boats which were designed to have equal displacements but one was designed to have a longer waterline the boat with the longer waterline would have a lower D/L but by definition, if the boats has equal displacements, the weigh the same thing. So if we compare the Alberg 37 in your example with a waterline of 25.5feet, a 16,800 lb displacement and an L/d around 400, to something like the shoal draft version of a Hanse 370, with a waterline length of 33.63 feet and close to the same displacement, (we will assume for the moment equal displacement) that same 16,800 lb displacement would result in a L/D around 186.

That is a big drop and most folks might assume that the Hanse is a much lighter boat and therefore have a less comfortable motion. But the science would suggest that the Hanse with its longer waterline should have a better motion going upwind and down, and with its better dampening, higher roll moment of inertia, and lower vertical center of gravity should have a gentler roll motion through a narrower roll angle.

That was my point,
Jeff


----------



## mitiempo

bobperry said:


> Wrong!
> D/L has everything to do with the weight of the boat.
> Don't kid yourself. That Sundeer is way overweight. Look at how it's dragging its transom. Do you think it was designed to ride like that?


From Steve Dashew's "Cruising Encyclopedia"

"Because of our low D/L ratios,stern waves are quite small in magnitude and quickly move aft of the hull itself once the vessel in question has attained a relatively modest forward velocity. 
As a result, we design some of our hulls to have a small amount of immersed transom at rest and at low speeds (typically below S/L ratios of one).
Practical experience has shown that this immersion costs us between 4% of speed at S/L ratios of .4 to .6 andhalf of this between an S/L ratio of .6 and .8.
While this is a huge number in racing terms, it seems nearly meaningless in a cruising context.
If we are talking about 4% or 4 knots , it is less than 4 miles in a 24 hour passage.
And when you look at the advantages (better performance at top speed, more efficient powering, much better prop characteristics when powering into head seas, higher longitudinal stability) this seems like a small price to pay, especially in light of the fact that with an efficient powering set-up, you are going to be motorsailing on passages during light airs anyway - regardless of how fast the boat sails in these conditions."

The book also has a series of pictures showing the stern wave still attached to the transom at S/L ratios under 1 and astern of the transom at S/L ratios of 1.125 while heavily loaded in a true wind speed of 10 knots.

So according to Steve it is designed to immerse the transom at rest and at slower speeds for gains at higher speeds of 25 to 40 miles per day.

His designs have been focused on one thing - offshore cruising with couples in mind. They have done this quite well I think. On his blog there is a chart showing his designs and their mileage. 32 boats, 21 circumnavigations (including the one I pictured) and an average mileage per boat of over 55,000 miles. They seem to do well what they are designed for. 
SetSail» Blog Archive » Deerfoot and Sundeer History


----------



## mitiempo

Jeff_H said:


> Maybe I can explain it like this. First of all, if we are comparing boats which were designed to have equal displacements but one was designed to have a longer waterline the boat with the longer waterline would have a lower D/L but by definition, if the boats has equal displacements, the weigh the same thing. So if we compare the Alberg 37 in your example with a waterline of 25.5feet, a 16,800 lb displacement and an L/d around 400, to something like the shoal draft version of a Hanse 370, with a waterline length of 33.63 feet and close to the same displacement, (we will assume for the moment equal displacement) that same 16,800 lb displacement would result in a L/D around 186.
> 
> That is a big drop and most folks might assume that the Hanse is a much lighter boat and therefore have a less comfortable motion. But the science would suggest that the Hanse with its longer waterline should have a better motion going upwind and down, and with its better dampening, higher roll moment of inertia, and lower vertical center of gravity should have a gentler roll motion through a narrower roll angle.
> 
> That was my point,
> Jeff


Thanks, I always appreciate your posts as well as Bob's.

That is my point as well. A smaller D/L ratio is assumed to be a lighter boat but as your example shows it isn't necessarily so. My favorite type of boat is long, lean, with a max waterline for its length. I do not think in terms of any racing rule and think a boat without overhangs is sensible for both ultimate speed and longitudinal stability.


----------



## bobperry

I really don't care what Dashew says. That boat is overweight. Displacement figures are highly suspect especially when they are published by a promoter like Dashew.
And yeah, the perfect cruising boat for everyone is a 60' to 80' custom yacht. Right.

I was getting dinner ready and thinking about Paulo's "what I wanted to say" and I was reminded of a funny story: I can relate.

Years ago in Taiwan I had just returned to my hotel from a nice lunch and the girls behind the front deck asked me what I had eaten for lunch. I always try hard to reply in Mandarin so I told them, "Woa cher shiatze". They all got a very surprised look on their faces. I knew I had screwed up and asked, "She mo she?" What's the matter? The head girl said in English, "You say you eat blind person for lunch!"

Oh, No, I told them , in English this time, I had shrimp for lunch. Turns out "blind person" and "shrimp" are only a tonal distance apart and I had used the wrong tone.


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## mitiempo

The point I am making is that a boat with a lower D/L for its displacement will gain in speed and comfort as well probably. Certainly be more fun to sail. And it doesn't have to be 60 feet long either. I think to be able to carry the load a cruising boat needs really low D/L ratios only work with larger boats. If you look at smaller boats with almost equal displacements two in a smaller size range are the Saga 43 (D/L 160) and the Westsail 32 (D/L 429). Extreme examples but I picked the Westsail because it is almost the same displacement as the Saga, a boat I have always liked. The Saga is a few hundred pounds heavier but its D/L would suggest to many that it is a light boat. The Saga will carry 1 1/2 times as much before immersing an inch so a cruising load is less of an issue as well.


----------



## SloopJonB

Uh oh.


----------



## mitiempo

VFerreira said:


> BS


BS or not it certainly worked for all the Sundeer owners many of whom have circumnavigated.


----------



## PCP

VFerreira said:


> BS


You mean Brent S. or the other kind of BS and in that case you are referring to what the Dashew says or to what Bob says or to what both say?.

It seems that you have somebody else that likes to make cryptic comments. One was enough 

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

VF:
Thank you.
I'll see you a dinner tomorrow night.
Thank God there is a brain left. There is hope.

Miti:
Time you made the trip down here to the shack. I'll take care of you. 
But with Sailing Anarchy people from all over the world and my usuals from North America
I am getting booked up for Christmas.

December 16th guests arrive from Australia. Fair dinkum. I have never met these people but they are welcome at the shack


----------



## aeventyr60

VFerreira said:


> Bob is BS.


No, No He is the BFD!


----------



## PCP

VFerreira said:


> Sundeer is dead. Long live Beowulf.




Humm, he is too ugly you can have it all for yourself!!!


----------



## smackdaddy

VFerreira said:


> Gajo, I have wet dreams about it.


Well then, just have Brent build you one. Easy-peasy.


----------



## mitiempo

I've never seen Beowulf except in pics. I met the Dashews in 1991 in Victoria when they were returning from Alaska in the original 67' Sundeer. There is a lot to be said for bare aluminum and its utilitarian looks and minimal upkeep.

While everything they have done is big dollar the trend of long, lean, and minimal overhangs is common to many designs, including Bob's Saga 35 and 43 and Chuck Paine's Bougainvillea series. An easily driven boat that has very balanced lines at an angle of heel makes sense and overhangs, other that for rating rules and beauty in the eyes of some, really don't make sense in terms of speed and longitudinal stability. Workboats the world over would have them if they were of any practical use - very few do.

I think many agree that boats should be compared by displacement rather than length. This makes sense both on a dollar to build basis as well as handling ability. After all the Sundeer 60, while thought of as a large boat is only slightly heavier than a Valiant 50 and 12,000 lbs lighter than Yoni.

I think my ideal boat (for now) would be an aluminum boat of about 50' like a Saga 43 but with not much more beam if any, no overhangs, and a hard dodger. Rigged as a double headsail sloop, like the Saga.


----------



## Stumble

One of the things that I have found is that the 'perfect' boat is a moving target. 

When I was a kid the 'perfect' boat was a SouthCoast 21 simple because I could afford to own it from what I made cleaning boat hulls. 

When the family was cruising I happen to think the Irwin 54' was pretty close to perfect, it was big slow, and sailed like a pig. But it was great for a family of five to live on.

When I was racing OD the J-22 was perfect because it was the big fleet around here. 

For now the Beneteau is perfect for weekending with the wife.

Soon I am thinking a VX OD may be the perfect boat, because the fleet is growing and the price is right....


----------



## MikeJohns

PCP said:


> ...............
> We can say that in what regards contemporary yacht design we can say that any cruising boat with 10 years is not at the state of the art and a racing boat in less time, about 5 years. What I said regards this.............Paulo


Paulo

Outside of production boats many new boats are built in small yards from designs that came out decades ago and are just the pick of the proven offerings that would be very hard to improve on. They come from a variety of popular design offices. I can't see that changing much for that type of boat which is still popular in many places. Like here.

The turning point to 'more modern' was a more modern underbody which started what maybe 50 years ago. like the gains to larger boats changing from a full to a 3/4 keel and skeg rudder. It's still hard to better that underbody shape for a larger boat with a limited draft and low aspect vortex lift keel. Except for minor gains such as maybe adding some balance to the rudder to reduce steering gear loads. But apart from that what would you change given a fixed displacement and a target Cp for what you call a modern design ?

I have redesigned heavier full keel boats from well known designers like Charles Wittholz to good effect with a fin keel and a balanced rudder and they have certainly made better boats than the original. But there are many good tried older designs that are extant already. People are still having them built or building them themselves.


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## PCP

MikeJohns said:


> Paulo
> 
> Outside of production boats many new boats are built in small yards from designs that came out decades ago and are just the pick of the proven offerings that would be very hard to improve on. They come from a variety of popular design offices. I can't see that changing much for that type of boat which is still popular in many places. Like here.
> 
> The turning point to 'more modern' was a more modern underbody which started what maybe 50 years ago. like the gains to larger boats changing from a full to a 3/4 keel and skeg rudder. It's still hard to better that underbody shape for a larger boat with a limited draft and low aspect vortex lift keel. Except for minor gains such as maybe adding some balance to the rudder to reduce steering gear loads. But apart from that what would you change given a fixed displacement and a target Cp for what you call a modern design ?
> 
> I have redesigned heavier full keel boats from well known designers like Charles Wittholz to good effect with a fin keel and a balanced rudder and they have certainly made better boats than the original. But there are many good tried older designs that are extant already. People are still having them built or building them themselves.


I know that. Amateurs and low budget builders are still using old designs but that designs do not represent the state of the art and they are just building from old plans because they are cheap and cannot afford a brand new plan from a major NA. I have been there, I mean planning to have my one boat building and I was doing just that, trying to improve over an existent affordable design with already some years. Not the top of the crop, I am afraid but the best I could afford.

Mass production shipyards or even smaller shipyards that produce boats have the money to command true contemporary designs of all types from the best NA, designs that represent the state of the art.

I agree with you that the gains from the last generation (10 years ago) from the next generation is not big but still meaningful. But each generation shows improvements over the last and the difference from a contemporary design (of any type) with a 30 year's old design is huge, not only in performance but in interior comfort,available space and the living quality of the space.

We can notice better that evolution on mass produced boats because the competition there is huge and they are forced to make always better boats to keep up with the competition and for that they command work from the best NA, even if that is expensive. They have not a choice except to have the better designed boat they can get.

They normally change the hull of a given model each 7 years or so and in between they make a MKII with the same hull. They change the cabin design and the interior, improving the rigging layout. I don't know of any European brand whose actual model was worst than the previous one, in comfort, performance or easiness of sail. They have to do so or they go out of business.

There is not this kind of pressure on the amateur or semi amateur boat building sector and there the priorities are others like having a boat easy to build, affordable but not too old plans and an overall not bad sailing.

Regards

Paulo


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## outbound

Paulo- Still think there is great merit in what Mike says. Undoubtedly with each passing year design and material advances are made. No one is arguing that point. However, you continue to see very long runs of semi production boats or small production runs sometimes extending over decades. Examples include Hinckley, Morris, Valliant, Kanter, Rustler and my beloved Outbound. None of these boats are cheap and I would be very surprised if any are built as a first boat or for owners who have not done their due diligence. They do evolve and incorporate some of the latest and greatest in their systems but the basic structure remains unchanged. Mike points out they simply work and fill the needs of their owners. I sail a design first done in 2001. I knew that when I built it taking delivery in 2013. If I had to do over again I would do the same.


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## PCP

outbound said:


> Paulo- Still think there is great merit in what Mike says. Undoubtedly with each passing year design and material advances are made. No one is arguing that point. However, you continue to see very long runs of semi production boats or small production runs sometimes extending over decades. Examples include Hinckley, Morris, Valliant, Kanter, Rustler and my beloved Outbound. None of these boats are cheap and I would be very surprised if any are built as a first boat or for owners who have not done their due diligence. They do evolve and incorporate some of the latest and greatest in their systems but the basic structure remains unchanged. Mike points out they simply work and fill the needs of their owners. I sail a design first done in 2001. I knew that when I built it taking delivery in 2013. If I had to do over again I would do the same.


You did not mention any European boat and for a good reason: The US market is much less competitive than the European market, with a much lower output and that means the development is slower and the boats remain competitive for more years even if the design is not at the state of the art no more.

Also some of the boats that you mention are not produced anymore and 10 or 20 years ago the developments were slower and the boats remained on the market for more time, even the European ones.

Finally two more factors, the conservatism of American sailors regarding anything that is new and the very low production of all those brands. Probably Halberg Rassy, a single high end brand produces more boats on a year that all those American Brands put together and even in what regards boats sold only to the US I bet the difference should not be that big.

There are also In Europe some small familiar firms that keep producing models, most of them traditional, that don't change models so frequently. Many times those models are not designed by top NA but by the builder himself. Europe has also his number of conservative sailors but in much less number than the American ones.

Anyway neither those sailors nor those brands pretend they are producing top of the art boats in what refers design, building techniques or materials. They are satisfied with high quality traditional workmanship and with boats that are beautiful and sail relatively well.

Regards

Paulo


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## outbound

Paulo- guess England (Rustler) is not part of Europe. Guess neither is Scandinavia where the HR 46 mark 2 is still getting new orders. Nor the fine aluminum boats from K+M using a nearly 20y.o design for the Bestever. You know this market better than me I'm sure you can up with others if you think on it.
regards


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## outbound

Also think about the new boats Oyster, Amel, HR and others have put out this year and last. They are still 180 d/l or higher. Still don't have the ultra wide stern quarters with twin rudders. But are still being newly designed and produced by European house. Surely given these boats are 1m and up and tooling/design costs are very significant there remains another school of thought than yours concerning the European market.


----------



## PCP

outbound said:


> Paulo- guess England (Rustler) is not part of Europe. Guess neither is Scandinavia where the HR 46 mark 2 is still getting new orders. Nor the fine aluminum boats from K+M using a nearly 20y.o design for the Bestever. You know this market better than me I'm sure you can up with others if you think on it.
> regards


Regarding the Rustler, yes the British are a conservative lot and the Ruster still has in its line some old designs. But one thing is to have it on catalog other is having someone buying them and unfortunately for Rustler that's the case. They are trying to make a last effort to survive and will present 3 new boats next year, modern boats, the Rustler 53, the 63 and the 37. I hope it is not too late for them.

Regarding the HR 46 I don't know od what you are talking about. The boat is not in production anymore, was built in 132 units and the last one was built almost 10 years ago.

Regarding the Bestevaer I don't understand also what you are talking about regarding a 20 year old design. There are not only a model but several deigned at different times. The First one was designed by Gerard Dijkstra as his personal boat in 2003 if I am not mistaken, it was a 53ft boat. Here you have all models built:

Yachts / K&M Yachtbuilders

Bestevaer 45ST was recently nominated for European boat of the year and is a 2011 design.

Anyway this is not what I call a production boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

outbound said:


> Also think about the new boats Oyster, Amel, HR and others have put out this year and last. They are still 180 d/l or higher. Still don't have the ultra wide stern quarters with twin rudders. But are still being newly designed and produced by European house. Surely given these boats are 1m and up and tooling/design costs are very significant there remains another school of thought than yours concerning the European market.


All the boats you have mentioned are very recent designs and designed by some of the best NA. Do you think that all contemporary designed sailboats have twin rudders or ultra wide sterns? Mine has not

There are several lines of development in what regards contemporary modern design and even if twin rudders and boats based on Open boats hulls are a strong tendency there are more tendencies and the boats are not necessarily very light, depending of the type of boat, even if lighter than the same type of boats 10 years ago. The only that are light are the performance cruiser. You don't have performance sailing with heavy boats.

By the way, you are wrong about the Oyster, I mean some of them have twin rudders.






Regards

Paulo


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## outbound

sorry Paulo I'm at work so got sizes wrong. but it seems we agree more than I first thought. Still if you look at these hulls it supports Mike's point. They are not significantly different than prior boats in d/l or basic architecture. Wolfie was the extreme of this argument and seemed to have trouble accepting significant advances have been made. I tend to agree more with Mike and Bob. I like all boats when done well. New, cutting edge, or old. But for the sailing I hope to do the 2001 design fits just fine and there are not other boats currently being made that have the features I wanted. I think this type of hull continues to be refined but it is an evolutionary change with relatively minor changes. I think in coastal, performance and high latitude a paradigm shift has occurred and that will now subside to evolutionary changes over years.
?I thought the 2011 boat for K+M was a glass version of the prior aluminum boat of that size. I further thought the others in that range varied in size and appendages but very little in basic hull configuration. Was berthed next to the new Amel at the Annapolis show. It looks very different than their prior boats but from what I can gather the hull shape is not at all radical. Some of their systems and accommodations are quite striking in new design elements. Think what Mike and I are saying is for long term/range cruising boats there is a type of boat the public still wants which has not changed much in the last 10-15years. The moderate displacement hull with little overhang, bulbed keel and balance spade seems to have been the paradigm shift and that occurred some time ago. I fully accept the high latitude and performance cruising folks are looking at very different boats and that paradigm shift is more recent.
P.S.- after my boat 3 more have been built and more are on the way. I believe Bob is in the process of a redesign to generate another version but the hull remains the same. This would suggest ,at least on this side of the pond, the demand for this type of boat to a select group of sailors still exists. I still think the new HR etc. also fit this mold. and apologize not being able to quote the correct size.


----------



## PCP

outbound said:


> ... Think what Mike and I are saying is for long term/range cruising boats there is a type of boat the public still wants which has not changed much in the last 10-15years. ....


Nothing to apologize. I don't think Mike was talking about hulls with 10 or 15 years. Most designs that amateur boat builders buy for building their boats and are cheap on the market are much more older than that. The other option is asking for a new design to a good NA but that is not an option due to the price. If they would have that kind of money they would have their boat built by a shipyard.

Regarding sailors being satisfied or wanting old designed boats, if they wanted that, brands like Rustler would be selling a lot of boats and there would be on the mass market a big offer of that kind of boats. The fact that Rustler is not selling boats and is trying to survive changing the paradigm of its boats, turning to contemporary, designs shows that it is not that what sailors want.

Of course this does not mean that the ones that sail older boats and older designs are not perfectly satisfied with their boats that offer good service and cost (used) only a fraction of a new boat.

Means that the ones that have the money for buying new boats want nothing but the best in what regards quality of design, performance, quality of interior design. They want something that represents the state of the Art.

Regarding performance in the last 20 years curiously the bigger difference in performance regards main market cruising boats that today have a performance similar to the one of cruiser racers of that era. But even in what regards performance boats every new model is faster than the previous one (you can see that clearly on the boat rating) and 20 years is already a lot in what regards performance if those boats are used for cruising and an enormity if they are used also for club racing.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Yes, I am working on raised salon version of the Outbound and they have two buyers lined up. It is a popular boat.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Yes, I am working on raised salon version of the Outbound and they have two buyers lined up. It is a popular boat.


It will be very different from this version?





If the Outbound was a European brand they would take the opportunity to make a MkII, maintaining the hull, modernizing the cabin design and giving you more creative liberty to re-design the new version. They could take the opportunity to redesign the basic version cabin too and modernize that keel. The one from the 52 has already a better and more modern design:



But I guess you would not get that luck and that's a pity for Outbound. I am sure you could make that boat look better.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Yeah Paulo. Relax, Chill. Take a Euro break. Eat a sardine. I'll eat a salmon. No,,, not that stinlky farm raised salmon you guys get. I eat my salmon fresh out of the cold waters of the great PNW. I don't even feed my dogs farm raised salon. Yuk!

But I digress.

I am working on the drawings and I will do my best to make the boat look good. Those are not my drawings you posted. Don't let your fingers get ahead of your brain.

But it won't be another boooooriiing Euro styled boat that you can't tell one from the other. Does anybody over there have any original thought?

And performance:
" I can can do 6.8 knots to weather in my Euro boat."
" Golly gosh, I can only do 6.2 knots to weather in my US styled boat."
" Oh wo is me. How can I possibly have any fun when I am giving up .6 knots.?"
" All my friends will laugh at me."
"There goes Bob at 6.2 knots. He's going to die that's for sure. Poor sod. Think what he could have done with another .6 knots." "Damn!"


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Yeah Paulo. Relax, Chill. Take a Euro break. Eat a sardine. I'll eat a salmon.
> 
> I am working on the drawings and I will do my best to make the boat look good. Those are not my drawings you posted. Don't let your fingers get ahead of your brain.
> 
> But it won't be another boooooriiing Euro styled boat that you can't tell one from the other. Does anybody over there have any original thought?
> 
> And performance:
> " I can can do 6.8 knots to weather in my Euro boat."
> " Golly gosh, I can only do 6.2 knots to weather in my US styled boat."
> " Oh wo is me. How can I possibly have any fun when I am giving up .6 knots.?"
> " All my friends will laugh at me."
> "There goes Bob at 6.2 knots. He's going to die that's for sure. Poor sod. Think what he could have done with another .6 knots." "Damn!"


They cab be pretty misleading on Outbound, sorry it seems that you had nothing to do with that drawing but as you can see it is them that have the wrong information on their site :



Regarding the difference between 6,2 and 6.8K on the same boat it is a huge one. Maybe we don't see things the same way. I like perfection on the aesthetically quality of the design and perfection on performance. If the boat can do 6.8K instead of 6.2K with the same hull, it is really a shame not to do the needed alterations.

O.6k in 6 hours are 3.6K and that's enough to disappear on the horizon. I like to leave boats behind, not letting them disappear on the horizon. On an Atlantic crossing on 17 days, that means 244 miles, almost 2 days. Yes you are right all my friends would laugh at me and more than that I would hate to be that slow.

Regarding the euro boats looking all the same and suffering from lack of creativity, I don't share your opinion but that's just a point of view. Most American boats, like the Outbound, look to me aesthetically just old designed boats in need of a design upgrade, even if on the case of the Oubound it is a shame since it seems to have a nice hull.

Do you think they look all alike and lack creativity?:





























Regards

Paulo


----------



## jak3b

We gave a cat some farm salmon, it wouldnt touch it.This being a cat will devour a whole fish in minutes.On the subject of the thread,Steel is betterer because a BS 36 would make rubble and flotsam out of all those high tech French boats in a good old fashioned demolition derby.All fear the power of origami.


----------



## PCP

jak3b said:


> ..On the subject of the thread,Steel is betterer because a BS 36 would make rubble and flotsam out of all those high tech French boats in a good old fashioned demolition derby.All fear the power of origami.


For sure, happily they cab run away easily from it.

By the way, there is not a single French boat among those

regards

Paulo


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## jak3b

Good, I am glad no French boats were harmed in the making of this.Anyhow for some reason I cant post any pictures of whats going on right here in my backyard.True, we dont have the big production yards here anymore simply because there is no market for them.For instance My fathers Cal 33 was $27,500 in 1971.It was an affordable Family cruiser racer at the time.it would be $158,643.91 today.Wages have not kept up anywhere near inflation.An up to date,state of the art, Cal 33 equivelent,would more likely be 250 to 350k now.Its out of range for most people now.Our home at the time cost less than 100k.Today it is worth over 1 million dollars.There is a huge glut of good used boats on the market now.Yes they are old and out of date but they are affordable.I like sailing, I love being on the water, I dont really give damm if its an old boat or a state of the art high tech multi hull, If Im there Im happy.Ive done both and all points in between including commercial fishing boats and the odd barge;-).


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## Jaramaz

If you are enough far away, all those distant things looks the same. From US, European boats are all look-a-like, and from Europe all the US boats looks similar. With some exceptions ... namely those we see more of, like the Jxxx (and then we can have yet another endless discussion if they are Eu or US).

Paolo looks for estetics and performance. Both qualities relevant in the context of "pro and cons of steel boats". In both cases ... steel boats doesn't cut it. 

There are many other qualities in life, and in sailing. In some steel boats are on top. No doubt. 

Now salmon and cats - what do they do in this?

/J


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## outbound

Paulo- I've great respect for you and have a few minutes as I'm waiting on the server to do it's thing. So will have at it. We are at a variance. I think it's because how we approach life in general differently - so different strokes for different folks.
I agree because my keel is part of the initial layup with internal ballast it is an inch or two thicker than the very thin keels on the boats you post. Maybe I give up a small fraction of a knot because of this. However I will never worry about it falling off or need to maintain non existent keelbolts.
Maybe because the bulb is through bolted then glassed into the keel it also has a couple of inches of added width. But again no maintenance and brutally strong. Sisterships have had hard grounding with minimal damage easily repaired.
Again with a solid glass lay up of the entire hull - the hull has a few extra pounds. I seen multiple sisterships going back to hull #2 and they look like new in spite of the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. My tanks are integral glass with epoxy. Built for the duration and add strength and rigidity. Again this type of construction is slightly heavier.
Even with just a half year of sailing we have had many 200+ days. After all even with these design elements we come in at 191 D/L. This boat is a brick out house in construction. To date no one has prayed to Neptune on her in spite of being in the snot on several occasions. The ride is outstanding. When we sea trialed this boat my wife on the drive back said "this is the one". This hull with weight centralized and it's heft rides like a Rolls.
I fully accept there is a minor penalty paid for this type of construction aimed at having a boat that will endure decades the type of cruising old farts like me do and still include all the creature comforts with the attendant weight this imposes. Still, on both sides of the pond and world at large there is a market for these boats. The one currently under construction will be delivered in China and sailed home to Oz as it's maiden voyage. The HRs, Oysters etc have similar D/Ls and allowing for lwl the same performance. Bob alludes to two of his new deck/infill design boats being under contract and mine with the new hard dodger has an audience. Paulo why are experienced sailors ( yes we get on those new fangled aeroplanes from time to time and go to the EU) are still building and buying this 2001 designed hull? Can it be you believe only those on the cutting edge are spending these massive amounts of money ( at least for me) correctly?


----------



## bobperry

No Paulo, they are lovely. I really like the dark grey one. But to my eye, and that's the only eye I care about, there is a sameness to them. Hulls are almost all identical in general form. Stems are all plumb anbd we know that for cruising boats even fast cruising boats that some rake on the stem costs you very little in boat speed. If you doubt this do your own exhaustive VPP studies and report back. I have. Read my book and the chapter on bows. The boat you post all have chopped off sterns. I know why and it makes perfect sense. Look at my own AMATI. But this doesn't change the fact that they are all (of course there is the odd exception) doing it. Cabin trunks are similar and cockpits and deck layouts are treated pretty much the same way.

So there is definetely a sameness to these boats. But I suspect you don't see it. Of course there are minor differences in styling, one boat has a traditional rake to the transom. But, it's still chopped off. I find the boats you post almost all very good looking but I am getting a bit bored by the similarities. On the positive side I could say it this way, "They are all equally exciting and all equally good looking."

I like variety, change, exploring the edges of design possibilities. I have an ultra heavy Baba 30, a very successful boat. It sails very well and has done several circumnavigations, one solo.


I have the ultra light Flying Tiger 10m that won a major race in Florida (Wirth-Monroe) on Thursday against good competition. We have sold 120 of these. They are a blast to sail.


So these two boats show the opposing extremes of my work and I just about anything in between too. I like variety and individual expressions of design. Sameness is very boring to me.

I don't see any "argument" here. You have your preferences and I have mine. Your preferences are right for you but they are not right for me. Outbound looks at yachting through his own life experinecs and he has his own preferences. They work well for him. They won't work for you. They are not right and they are not wrong they are just his. It's all good and heaven forbid we ever live in a one size fits all world.

I think I can best sum up my design philosophy this way.


----------



## outbound

Bob- close fishing buddy came back from flying fishing salmon in Alaska. Got to see some of your bear buddies. Was told "never get between the fish you lay out on the shore and the bear.....you can catch more fish".


----------



## Faster

Well said, both of you..

I really appreciate Paulo's 'interesting sailboats' thread for the eye-opening differences between NA and Euro markets, buyers' desires, builders outlooks and practices. It is a shame that there isn't more diversity in the NA market, but it is what it is.

I too find a 'sameness' in those rather spectacular examples posted by Paulo, much like today it's hard to look at a vehicle and 'know' who made it without seeing the badging.

Still, at the gut level I much prefer, (and would probably buy, had I the resources) boats with interiors more like the Passports than the recent Euro crop.. fully understanding that that's at odds with a lightweight, performance boat that I'd appreciate on other levels. I'd love to be the first to import a Salona, for example (but even then, likely a slightly older one with a closer-to-traditional finish below). 

As Bob said.. it's up to each individual, we all have our opinions and preferences, it's all good. I think 'arguments' is too strong... how about 'lively discussions'?


----------



## blt2ski

Back to this disCUSSion with a few moments to type.....

I was at a ski instructor initial season meeting a couple of weeks ago. The fellow in the front had done a survey a few years ago with what are supposed to be some of the top instructors in the US. "What is the most important thing to teach clients?" got a variety of answers regarding movements of the body, how the ski should interact with the snow etc. Similar to the things outbound and paulo are sorta kinda arguing about. Then he hits "Joe" his reply" what that person wants to learn that day!"........hmmmmmmmmm........why is this a good answer? as is BP's? Because if we all taught, designed, did the same thing, life would be boring. THe other reason, I recall my dad doing this for a couple that he had been working with, I do the same on certain runs with students. Is you only show/teach them how to deal with certain parts of the run! they have no experience trying to get down a narrow gulch, or narrow entry etc. So one has to hope they have the body ability, so body mechanics go out the door. Only tactics come into play.

If I asked for a dinghy to learn to sail be designed, an the designer came up with a wally 100 equal using the latest greatest materials etc. think I would be happy with said designer? oh, he painted everything browns and tans like an Italian building from 500 bc! I hate browns and tans. would prefer bright red! and I have a 100' boat designed, not a 10' lapstake style V nosed boat with a centerboard and folding up rudder in as best as one can get wherry look! hmmmmmmmmYou should have listened to me better than you did BP!!!!!!!!! blinken idjiot he is!:laugher:laugher

so anyway, off to get breakfast with the leading lady, get some more lights on my boat, and put up a banner advertising my YC and our Holiday on the dock setup.

Bob, come down to Edmonds, I'm front and center with a couple of really suspect folks sailing my boat 24/7 at the dock!

















marty


----------



## PCP

outbound said:


> Paulo- I've great respect for you and have a few minutes as I'm waiting on the server to do it's thing. So will have at it. We are at a variance. I think it's because how we approach life in general differently - so different strokes for different folks.
> I agree because my keel is part of the initial layup with internal ballast it is an inch or two thicker than the very thin keels on the boats you post. Maybe I give up a small fraction of a knot because of this. However I will never worry about it falling off or need to maintain non existent keelbolts.
> Maybe because the bulb is through bolted then glassed into the keel it also has a couple of inches of added width. But again no maintenance and brutally strong. Sisterships have had hard grounding with minimal damage easily repaired.
> Again with a solid glass lay up of the entire hull - the hull has a few extra pounds. I seen multiple sisterships going back to hull #2 and they look like new in spite of the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. My tanks are integral glass with epoxy. Built for the duration and add strength and rigidity. Again this type of construction is slightly heavier.
> Even with just a half year of sailing we have had many 200+ days. After all even with these design elements we come in at 191 D/L. This boat is a brick out house in construction. To date no one has prayed to Neptune on her in spite of being in the snot on several occasions. The ride is outstanding. When we sea trialed this boat my wife on the drive back said "this is the one". This hull with weight centralized and it's heft rides like a Rolls.
> I fully accept there is a minor penalty paid for this type of construction aimed at having a boat that will endure decades the type of cruising old farts like me do and still include all the creature comforts with the attendant weight this imposes. Still, on both sides of the pond and world at large there is a market for these boats. The one currently under construction will be delivered in China and sailed home to Oz as it's maiden voyage. The HRs, Oysters etc have similar D/Ls and allowing for lwl the same performance. Bob alludes to two of his new deck/infill design boats being under contract and mine with the new hard dodger has an audience. Paulo why are experienced sailors ( yes we get on those new fangled aeroplanes from time to time and go to the EU) are still building and buying this 2001 designed hull? Can it be you believe only those on the cutting edge are spending these massive amounts of money ( at least for me) correctly?


Otbound, let me be clear. I know that you have a great boat and a very well built one. There are boats of all types and there is nothing wrong with the dimensions of your boat including weight. Those pictures had nothing to do with your boat but with this Bob statement:

*" But it won't be another boooooriiing Euro styled boat that you can't tell one from the other. Does anybody over there have any original thought?"*

This is not personal but about design. Your boat is great but could be better if it was upgraded in the keel design that its old. The hull is remarkably well designed for the time it was designed and I think it is not too much outdated. The boat would benefict of a MKII version and that hull justifies it. I think also the overall design could also be improved on that MKII version. I think the boat deserves it.

My own boat, a 2006 model had been replaced by a MKII version: Same hull, same ruder but better and faster torpedo keel (less drag) needing less weight in ballast (lighter boat), two wheel set up, an integrated cockpit table that goes down and disappears under the cockpit floor and a better integrated geenaker pole. In my opinion they took too long to make this MKII, that is obviously better than my boat (MKI). This version should have been made already 2 or 3 years ago. I also find that they should have gone further with the modifications in what regards the cabin itself and the winch positions, that are perfect for crewed racing but could be improved for solo sailing.

To remain at the top of the crop (and there are many types of crops) today any model has a limited time live and needs a reformulation at the middle otherwise sailors will buy other models more evolved. The average time a hull can stand without needed to be substituted is about 10 years, with a reformulation that normally changes everything but the hull at about half time.

The evolution has been so fast on the last years that this times tend to become shorter. Off course I am talking about main market (with many types of boats) where the competition is more severe and stimulates evolution. There will always be some margins to the ones that prefer more conservative boats and those boat don't need to have a so fast evolution: The owners are less demanding in what regards boat performance and design and more focused on workmanship and detail quality.

regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

"To remain at the top of the crop (and there are many crops)"

It very well could be Paulo that there are some sailors with no interest at all in staying at the "top of the crop". Perthaps they are perfectly happy with exactly what they have as it suits their style of sailing very well. 

Grasshopper:
The continual search for something "better" can lead to unhappiness.

From my book THE ZEN BUDDHIST APPROACH TO YACHTING.


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## PCP

bobperry said:


> ... But to my eye, and that's the only eye I care about, there is a sameness to them. Hulls are almost all identical in general form. ...there is definetely a sameness to these boats. But I suspect you don't see it. ...I find the boats you post almost all very good looking but I am getting a bit bored by the similarities. On the positive side I could say it this way, "They are all equally exciting and all equally good looking."
> ....
> I don't see any "argument" here. You have your preferences and I have mine. Your preferences are right for you but they are not right for me. Outbound looks at yachting through his own life experinecs and he has his own preferences. They work well for him. They won't work for you. They are not right and they are not wrong they are just his. It's all good and heaven forbid we ever live in a one size fits all world....


These are not about mine or your preferences but about what sailors that have the money to buy new boats want. There is a reason for American boats with the exception of J boats (that is a very European type of boat) not selling almost any boat in Europe and European boats to sell considerable more than American boats in the US.

This is the preference that matter, the one of the sailors.

I find really odd you cannot find differences on those hulls, there are there beamy hulls and relatively moderate hulls, planning hulls and semi-planning hulls and very different types of boats with different aesthetics. Really the one thing they have in common is that they are modern, meaning not sharing any similitude with classic or traditional boats. Maybe you consider all modern boats to be very similar

Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

Well Paulo, I'm new to all this. What would I know?


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## PCP

Faster said:


> Well said, both of you..
> 
> I really appreciate Paulo's 'interesting sailboats' thread for the eye-opening differences between NA and Euro markets, buyers' desires, builders outlooks and practices. It is a shame that there isn't more diversity in the NA market, but it is what it is.
> 
> I too find a 'sameness' in those rather spectacular examples posted by Paulo, much like today it's hard to look at a vehicle and 'know' who made it without seeing the badging.
> 
> Still, at the gut level I much prefer, (and would probably buy, had I the resources) boats with interiors more like the Passports than the recent Euro crop.. fully understanding that that's at odds with a lightweight, performance boat that I'd appreciate on other levels. I'd love to be the first to import a Salona, for example (but even then, likely a slightly older one with a closer-to-traditional finish below).
> 
> ...


Faster in what regards European offer there is for all tastes. Maybe I had just posted what I find the better design in what regards an "avantgarde" but you can find less "modern" designs even if only in what regards the looks because the performance is not compromised. I bet this one will make your style:









I would not mind to have one either.

Regards

Paulo


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## djodenda

PCP said:


>


Nice boat. He's sitting at the wrong wheel, though....

I bet it gets noisy at the dock sometimes...
Still... what is it, Paulo?


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Well Paulo, I'm new to all this. What would I know?


Bob you are a great designer and I am quite sure you can design any kind of boat but on the last years you have been designing one offs. Those regards what a particular sailor want and normally a sailor with very particular taste, otherwise he could find what he wanted, in a less expensive way, on the big market offer of production boats.

If you were hired by any major brand to design a production boat to be sold in great numbers you would have to design a boat that would appeal to the greater number of sailors. You would have to maximize performance, interior space and design a type of boat that would not be too expensive to build.

If your design was a successful one (in sales) it would not be that different regarding the many offers the production market has. The competition is huge and the production shipyards hire many of the best and more creative world's Na and there is a reason why the designs seem to you a lot alike: They follow the desires and tastes of the majority of sailors that have the money to buy those boats, otherwise they don't sell and the shipyard will go bankrupt. That has happened frequently on the last years and a lot more regarding conservative shipyards.

Regards

Paulo


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## Faster

PCP said:


> Faster in what regards European offer there is for all tastes. Maybe I had just posted what I find the better design in what regards an "avantgarde" but you can find less "modern" designs even if only in what regards the looks because the performance is not compromised. I bet this one will make your style:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would not mind to have one either.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Yes... that'll do just fine!


----------



## SloopJonB

You are correct of course Paulo - the marketplace is pretty harsh about weeding out anything that doesn't have wide appeal.

The comment Faster made about cars is apropos though - even enthusiasts have to read the badges now in most cases to tell them apart. The same is happening to boats. Bill Garden once referred to "The vast fleets of white, triangular me-too's". And that was when there was still some variety in boats.

It isn't a change for the better IMO. It wouldn't have been quite so bad if it had happened when boats were still good looking but it's a shame that design (or styling at least) has become fixed at a point when performance boats are generally so ugly and soulless.


----------



## PCP

djodenda said:


> Nice boat. He's sitting at the wrong wheel, though....
> 
> I bet it gets noisy at the dock sometimes...
> Still... what is it, Paulo?


You are right Now they are seated on the right side



It's an Arcona 410. Looks almost classical on the design, but look at the hull: No compromise here. This boat will be able to cruise fast and comfortably but for the ones that will race it at club racing they will get a top performance.


----------



## PCP

SloopJonB said:


> ...
> It isn't a change for the better IMO. It wouldn't have been quite so bad if it had happened when boats were still good looking but it's a shame that design (or styling at least) has become fixed at a point when performance boats are generally so ugly and soulless.


Fact is that what most sailors find more beautiful is the shape of a racing boat. I read some time ago a major NA article about the shapes of cruising boats being heavily influenced by the ones of the racing boats (not only now) and not only for a question of performance but because most sailors associate beauty with the shapes that give speed in a sailboat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Brent Swain

That super wide stern and lean bows looks like a very poorly balanced hull shape. Is hydraulic steering a way to hide the weather helm on her. Until you sailed her with a tiller, you would never know, except for having to pay full attention full time to avoid a broach.
That is a new interior. Don't expect one which has been lived in for decades, to look like that.
Bob could do a far better job on aesthetics than that piece of pretentiousness.
They should hire him to set it right.

When a sloped stem hits a log , dock, container, ice , etc., it rides up on it, making it a glancing blow , drastically reducing the potential for damage. When a plumb stem hits anything ,it takes the full impact immediately, a shocking blow, maximizing the potential for damage , not a good idea on a cruising boat.


----------



## PCP

Brent Swain said:


> That super wide stern and lean bows looks like a very poorly balanced hull shape. Is hydraulic steering a way to hide the weather helm on her. Until you sailed her with a tiller, you would never know, except for having to pay full attention full time to avoid a broach...


Brent, performance boats of that size and much bigger don't use hydraulic steering and are normally so well balanced that you steer them with two fingers. It seems you never sailed one

Here you have two boat tests on that boat made by two very experienced boat testers. Listen what they say about the steering and boat balance:











Regards

Paulo


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## bobperry

" Until you sailed her with a tiller you would never know""
I think a good quadrant wheel set up also would give you plenty enough feel to determine helm balance. I think choosing hydraulics is a pragmatic decision for installation and has nothing to do with balance. But I don't see anything in those pics to indicate hydraulic steering and in a boat like that hydraulkic steering would be very unusual.

Thanks for the compliment Brent but that's just not my style of boat. I suppose I could do it if a client asked for it but I prefer not to have to follow a style set down by fashion and trendyness. I like a more classic approach. I need to be excited about what I am doing.

I agree with Paulo that a good cruising boat designer is always studying the race boats to see how he can improve his cruising boat's performance. Performance remains a moving target. The Valiant 40 was born out of the early days of the IOR. My curiosity is enough to keep me interested in racing boat hull shapes. I find generally the fastest boats have beautiful, looking hulls. But today most of the really fast boats are so light that its hard to take away very much that will improve even a medium displ cruising boat. But you can try. You have to try.

For instance:
On kdh's 46'er we ended up looking at two final hulls, one with deadrise and one that was tangent on centerline (flat bottomed). The tangent hull looked to be the quicker hull and gave a little more span to the keel fin. But the reduction is displacement was 1,000 lbs. almost exactly and with the tangent bottom I lost a natural bilge sump. I didn't like the idea of lsing 1,000 lbs of ballast because that's where the weight reduction would have to have come from. And, I didn't like the loss of the bilge sump. I've lived with flat bottomed boats before and they can be a PITA in terms of bilge pick up. I also lost 3" of structural floor height in the keel area. So in the end I stuck with the deadrise hull form that you see in the renderings. But we did look hard at the alternative.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Yeah Paulo. Relax, Chill. Take a Euro break. Eat a sardine. I'll eat a salmon. No,,, not that stinlky farm raised salmon you guys get. I eat my salmon fresh out of the cold waters of the great PNW. I don't even feed my dogs farm raised salon. Yuk!
> 
> But I digress.
> 
> I am working on the drawings and I will do my best to make the boat look good. Those are not my drawings you posted. Don't let your fingers get ahead of your brain.
> 
> But it won't be another boooooriiing Euro styled boat that you can't tell one from the other. Does anybody over there have any original thought?
> 
> And performance:
> " I can can do 6.8 knots to weather in my Euro boat."
> " Golly gosh, I can only do 6.2 knots to weather in my US styled boat."
> " Oh wo is me. How can I possibly have any fun when I am giving up .6 knots.?"
> " All my friends will laugh at me."
> "There goes Bob at 6.2 knots. He's going to die that's for sure. Poor sod. Think what he could have done with another .6 knots." "Damn!"


You still have the ruder axis sloping the wrong way.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Well then, just have Brent build you one. Easy-peasy.


I once met a USanian who used smoked plexi for his wheelhouse windows. Couldn't see a damned thing after sundown. He had to change it to clear.
Bare aluminium in the tropics gets hot enough to burn the soles off your f.eet


----------



## Brent Swain

PCP said:


> I know that. Amateurs and low budget builders are still using old designs but that designs do not represent the state of the art and they are just building from old plans because they are cheap and cannot afford a brand new plan from a major NA. I have been there, I mean planning to have my one boat building and I was doing just that, trying to improve over an existent affordable design with already some years. Not the top of the crop, I am afraid but the best I could afford.
> 
> Mass production shipyards or even smaller shipyards that produce boats have the money to command true contemporary designs of all types from the best NA, designs that represent the state of the art.
> 
> I agree with you that the gains from the last generation (10 years ago) from the next generation is not big but still meaningful. But each generation shows improvements over the last and the difference from a contemporary design (of any type) with a 30 year's old design is huge, not only in performance but in interior comfort,available space and the living quality of the space.
> 
> We can notice better that evolution on mass produced boats because the competition there is huge and they are forced to make always better boats to keep up with the competition and for that they command work from the best NA, even if that is expensive. They have not a choice except to have the better designed boat they can get.
> 
> They normally change the hull of a given model each 7 years or so and in between they make a MKII with the same hull. They change the cabin design and the interior, improving the rigging layout. I don't know of any European brand whose actual model was worst than the previous one, in comfort, performance or easiness of sail. They have to do so or they go out of business.
> 
> There is not this kind of pressure on the amateur or semi amateur boat building sector and there the priorities are others like having a boat easy to build, affordable but not too old plans and an overall not bad sailing.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


What amore competitive market has given them is a powerful incentive to cut costs ,then make up bogus technical arguments to justify under building things.


----------



## Brent Swain

mitiempo said:


> From Steve Dashew's "Cruising Encyclopedia"
> 
> "Because of our low D/L ratios,stern waves are quite small in magnitude and quickly move aft of the hull itself once the vessel in question has attained a relatively modest forward velocity.
> As a result, we design some of our hulls to have a small amount of immersed transom at rest and at low speeds (typically below S/L ratios of one).
> Practical experience has shown that this immersion costs us between 4% of speed at S/L ratios of .4 to .6 andhalf of this between an S/L ratio of .6 and .8.
> While this is a huge number in racing terms, it seems nearly meaningless in a cruising context.
> If we are talking about 4% or 4 knots , it is less than 4 miles in a 24 hour passage.
> And when you look at the advantages (better performance at top speed, more efficient powering, much better prop characteristics when powering into head seas, higher longitudinal stability) this seems like a small price to pay, especially in light of the fact that with an efficient powering set-up, you are going to be motorsailing on passages during light airs anyway - regardless of how fast the boat sails in these conditions."
> 
> The book also has a series of pictures showing the stern wave still attached to the transom at S/L ratios under 1 and astern of the transom at S/L ratios of 1.125 while heavily loaded in a true wind speed of 10 knots.
> 
> So according to Steve it is designed to immerse the transom at rest and at slower speeds for gains at higher speeds of 25 to 40 miles per day.
> 
> His designs have been focused on one thing - offshore cruising with couples in mind. They have done this quite well I think. On his blog there is a chart showing his designs and their mileage. 32 boats, 21 circumnavigations (including the one I pictured) and an average mileage per boat of over 55,000 miles. They seem to do well what they are designed for.
> SetSail» Blog Archive » Deerfoot and Sundeer History


Greater directional stability means not having to reef to self steer, which would greatly outweigh any effect from transom drag.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> YONI was one of the last designs I drew by hand. I used pencil and ink on 4 mil mylar. I drew on both sides of the mylar to get different effects and line qualities. It was fun but changes to the design were a PITA compared to acad. There is about 30 sheets of drawings, including schematics for all systems to this design.


Nice keel rudder and skeg design.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> I just _seem_ like an expert. I actually know absolutely nothing.
> 
> Man you sure got that right!


----------



## blt2ski

Brent Swain said:


> smackdaddy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just _seem_ like an expert. I actually know absolutely nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Man you sure got that right!
Click to expand...

At least the smackers admits it! as do others..........not sure about some tho...............


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Thanks Guys- Enjoyed the discussion of Al my last post precipitated which encourages me to try again.
> I truly, truly love my boat so please don't take this the wrong way. If I had no financial restrictions I would build a one off utilizing modern wood epoxy techniques. With advancement in fabric technologies and available of woods from around the world I would have hull construction derived from an outline offered around 10 years ago in Wooden Boat.
> The inner core would be edge nailed strip plank using plastic or bronze nails and a low density wood. This would be coated with double diagonals of appropriate fabric. Then a layer of hard wood laminates appropriate to vector analysis of forces applied. Then on the outside lay up of puncture and abrasion resistant fabric. The design would incorporate integral epoxy coated tanks centrally and water tight bulk heads fore and aft( just forward of rudder(s) posts). Through hulls would all be stand pipes or in sea chests.
> At present the military have utilized fabrics as armor. Wood for weight remains an excellent construction material both in terms of strength, acoustic/thermal properties and lack of restriction in developing complex shapes.
> Given there are so many sailors with much, much greater resources than I can anyone offer an explanation why we don't get a chance to drool over such boats.


Wood is the most complex, weakest, and least forgiving boat building material
ever used, with the greatest number of liabilities. As Frank Freddette, an old sealing schooner designer, once told me "It doesn't make much sense to build a boat out of wood anymore. There are so much better materials available today."


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> If the builder converts 3/16 steel plate to 1/4 alloy that's only an increase of 1.3 times which will be a little weaker than steel but not alarmingly so.
> 
> Talking common boatbuilding materials. Alloy needs to be 1.4 times thicker that steel to have the same resistance to buckling. Stiffness scales linearly to Youngs modulus and by the cube of the material thickness. Young modulus or stiffness (desigated E in GPa) of most boat building alloys is around 70 and steel is 200. so for the same thickness alloy is only 35% as stiff (for 30% of the weight). If we take the cube root of (1 / 0.35) we get 1.42 as the required thickness increase. Or one half the weight of the equivalent structural material for the hull for 1.4 times the volume of material.
> 
> Alloy makes sense for lightweight boats and can be further lightened and made stronger by adding framing since deflection also goes by the cube of the span. So halving the span reduces deflection by a factor of 8. That's why with alloy you juggle the skin and framing to find a good balance of strength and weight.
> 
> But novel alloy structures also need a careful analysis to ensure that not only material stress is within fatigue and buckling limits, but weld stresses are below the fatigue stress allowances. Alloy should also be professionally welded. It's the worst material for the home builder to attempt to build in and it's very easy to produce nice looking welds which have no penetration and can fail easily.
> 
> But I think you'd be daft to build an alloy Brent boat, you'd never recoup the material costs in resale. You'd buy a used Brentboat for less than the alloy cost.
> 
> It would be much more sensible to opt for a better designer and build compliant to ISO or some class scantlings. At least they catch the design pitfalls which can be numerous. With alloy the devil really is in the detail. You would also have a much better cost to strength ratio.
> 
> You find that most common materials have quite similar stiffness to density figures or what's called 'Specific Modulus' Lighter materials have the benefit of being able to increase stiffness with thickness at a much greater rate than they increase total mass. But lot of boats don't benefit much from a lighter hull construction particularly if they are a heavier type of vessel by design. Alloy does corrode less but a hot zinc or aluminium sprayed steel hull (internal deck and even topsides) comes close in durability if you can afford it.


By span do you mean span between all supports, such as the distance between chines and decks, lonigitudinals , etc , which have far more rigidity than frames ?
How much credit do you give to the huge increases in stiffness given by shape, which adds far more stiffness than mere transverse frames?
Miss any one of these factors in your calculations, and all they become irrelevant


----------



## bobperry

Frank the cannibal?
He was an awful designer. His sterns were really weird.
I never met him. I just heard the cannibal stories. He was probably a real nice guy.

I have to go along with Paulo on the helm balance issue. I've done three very light, wide stern boats, the two FlyTiger models and the one off ICON. All are very well balanced. As Paulo says two fingers, lightly on the wheel is all it takes to drive ICON. ( Don't forget the FT10 won its class in the the Wirth-Monroe race in Florida on Thursday. Yahooo!)

Take any one of those wide ( L/B's below 3.4), lght (D/L's below 130) flat bottomed boats and heel it over 20 degrees. They roll bow down but the keel gets a nice angle of attack and the water sees a long, sliver of a boat. It's a very easy shape to balance. If these boats all had bad helms they would have corrected it by now. Similar hulls and similar frac rigs with similar keels and similar rudders they have to be able to figure it out and I'm certain they have. You can't win races in a poorly balanced boat. These boats didn't pop up over night as an experiment. They have evolved.


----------



## Capt Len

Frank Freddetts designs like Pathfinder and Longfin reflect the west coast troller stern.Form tends to follow function (Sullivan) This is an example of design evolving to fill a need. Some sailors think their needs evolve as designers pull up pretty or faster as the only criteria for excellence. Others may be impressed with a sturdy counter to shuck oysters. Those probably balance affordability and practical comfort with NEW and modern. If you are just a dreamer, dream on. (Frank used to sit on my cap rail and talk about the old days)


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Frank the cannibal?
> 
> I never met him. I just heard the cannibal stories. He was probably a real nice guy.


WELL? You can't just leave it at that. The rest of us haven't heard the stories.


----------



## outbound

Surprised by Brent 's comment about wood. Maybe he was talking about plank on frame.seem to recall boats up to 100' being done in cold molded. Went up to Covey island and saw some of the gorgeous designs they were putting out in strip plank. Brent may want to investigate modern wood construction. Like Paulo points out real advances in construction techniques have occurred. Don't see much resorcinol now a days.
Paulo you make a very good point. Production yards must built for the masses,must create buzz their boats is the new and improved version or go out of business. Bene is the largest yard in the world. They make a fine product and enjoy the cost effiencies that come with large production runs. They and Hanse, Catalina, or even Hunter have this advantage. The issue of keeping costs down, of designing to keep construction time down, of designs to create a boat that will look good in the shows also apply. But I think it's a wonderful thing Bob is still able to design and sell his designs. That two French seat of their pants sailors can design and actual build the Boreal. In short there remains and hopefully will always remain a non "for the masses" market. 
For myself ( and now >55 others) I know I 'd rather be on my boat when off the shelf than any of the "off the shelf" production boats. As I said before " different strokes for different folks". There is no right or wrong on this.


----------



## bobperry

Given the wide variety of construction techniques the modern "wooden" boat builder uses it seems rather naive to condemn all wood boats as if they are all equal. There are some really beautiful wooden boats being built today in Maine and in the UK. These are true works of art and wonderful boats. I don't think anyone involved with these efforts sees any of these boats as inferior in any way.


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## Jeff_H

I am not surprised by Brent's comments on wood seeing that they came from Brent. 

But as Bob noted above there is a very wide range of species and construction methods that employ wood. Any boat is only as good as it's design, engineering, and build quality. In a broad sense, choosing the right species and construction methods, wood can be one of the strongest for its weight, lowest maintenance, least expensive, and most durable materials that is out there. In my mind , wood would probably be my first choice for a "one off" design. Depending on your environmental ethics, it is also a material that is a bio-renewable resource, which personally appeals to me.

But not all wooden boats are the same, and given a poor design , wood species and building details then wood could be one of the heaviest, least durable, high maintenance materials that are out there. 

Given the wider range of good to bad construction that is possible, Brent is not 100% wrong. 
But obviously, he and I would disagree on his blanket statement decrying wood. 

Jeff


----------



## SloopJonB

Epoxy cold mould would be my choice for a custom boat.

Varnished of course.


----------



## PCP

Brent Swain said:


> What amore competitive market has given them is a powerful incentive to cut costs ,then make up bogus technical arguments to justify under building things.


For the more common type of cruisers, I mean plyvalent cruisers the offer can come from 20 boat builders or more. Sailors do not chose the least expensive:

What people look is the best deal for the money. That includes price, boat quality and finish, interior space, boat performance and a suitability to their sailing and life style that includes cruising style.

Brands like Arcona, X yachts or Halberg-Rassy would have bankrupted long ago and nobody would be buying the Beneteau Sense that is way more expensive than the Beneteau Oceanis series. That would be good for Varianta that would be by far the most sold boat. That's not the case by far, very far

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> ....
> I have to go along with Paulo on the helm balance issue. I've done three very light, wide stern boats, the two FlyTiger models and the one off ICON. All are very well balanced. As Paulo says two fingers, lightly on the wheel is all it takes to drive ICON. ...
> Take any one of those wide ( L/B's below 3.4), lght (D/L's below 130) flat bottomed boats and heel it over 20 degrees. They roll bow down but the keel gets a nice angle of attack and the water sees a long, sliver of a boat. It's a very easy shape to balance. If these boats all had bad helms they would have corrected it by now. Similar hulls and similar frac rigs with similar keels and similar rudders they have to be able to figure it out and I'm certain they have. You can't win races in a poorly balanced boat. These boats didn't pop up over night as an experiment. They have evolved.


Any very light boat will have a more or less flat bottom but the ones with more flat bottoms are the ones (as you say) with large beam and big transom.

The boat I posted and the one was talking about has not by modern standards a big bottom neither a large beam, I would call that beam a moderated one. A boat like the one you seem to be describing is the Pogo 12.50 that has a beam of 4.50m with all the beam brought back which gives a large transom. The Arcona 410 has a beam of 3.90 and the beam is not brought all back, giving a moderated transom (by average modern standards).

The shape of both hulls in a superior view:





But of course this as to do with what you call a big beam or a big transom, anyone can have his own standards in what regards that.

Brent, the Pogo, the one with the big beam and transom does not have hydraulic steering, neither a wheel. It has a tiller, in fact two.

Regarding the boat sailing performance on the ARC, that is crossing the Atlantic right now, the only Pogo 12.50 is by far the fastest 40ft and has been battling and winning over a bigger racing boat, a very fast one, a TP 52.

This is a racing TP 52:






The Pogo is a performance cruiser not a racer and is making a Transat at the same speed as the fastest 55/60ft cruising boats.

I bet they have no problems with the steering

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Capt Len

A tad unfair to focus on Brents 'blanket statement' We all know of his bias but his statement was a quote from a well known and respected figure of west coast history. Frank was sailing the Bering Sea 50 years before ANY of you opinionated modern sailors were born. He lamented the demise of fine lumber and the talent needed to create a wooden vessel when all about were turning to plastic. If epoxy and laminates had evolved 30 years earlier ,he would have gladly sung its praise but in his heart he felt you can't beat a well caulked hull whether it made sense or not..


----------



## bobperry

"Frank was sailing the Bering Sea 50 years before ANY of you opinionated modern sailors were born."

What does that have to do with the discussion?

You can still get a very fine wooden boat built. The materials may be more difficult to find but the craftsmen are there to do it and they are doing it everyday. Have you not been paying attention? Len?


----------



## Brent Swain

PCP said:


> As you know the hull of a boat represents probably only about 1/4 of the cost of a cruiser with a nice interior. His boat was expensive because he used for all other material, from tanks to heater, refrigerator, winches, rigging and mast the same high quality products that are used on mass produced boats but as the big shipyards buy those items directly to the factory and by hundreds of units, the ones he bought to a dealer costed probably 2 times more than what they cost to a big shipyard. of course to have a comfortable interior he had to pay to a carpenter to make it and custom work is not cheap.
> 
> Actually he said to me that he had invested about 200 000 euros on his boat (36ft) that eventually he liked to sell to have a bigger boat...but the market price of his boat is between 30 and 35 000 euros so he as no courage to sell and in between periods of lucidity comes to the same old story : My boat is better than any plastic boat...even if he knows that the boat had given him only hardships in what regards costs and maintenance, not to mention sailing performance.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


How much you pay for stuff often has no relation to how good it is, in functional terms. Other wise you could double quality by simply doubling the price tag. My interior cost me around $50 for materials . That is certainly not 3/4 the cost of the boat.


----------



## Brent Swain

One old salt lamented "In my grandfathers time it was iron men in wooden ships . In my time it was wooden men in iron ships. Now it's plastic boats and kids."


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> "Frank was sailing the Bering Sea 50 years before ANY of you opinionated modern sailors were born."
> 
> What does that have to do with the discussion?
> 
> You can still get a very fine wooden boat built. The materials may be more difficult to find but the craftsmen are there to do it and they are doing it everyday. Have you not been paying attention? Len?


How long did Pachena last on Estevan point? Not my idea of a fine boat! She was kindling in minutes! Did you design that one Bob? A steel boat would have pounded right over it, intact.
What do your baby pictures, wine discussions, and car discussions have to do with the subject, Bob?


----------



## Classic30

Brent Swain said:


> One old salt lamented "In my grandfathers time it was iron men in wooden ships . In my time it was wooden men in iron ships. Now it's plastic boats and kids."


Well, since you put it that way, I, for one, would like to think I'm continuing the fine tradition of "iron men"..


----------



## PCP

Capt Len said:


> Frank Freddetts designs like Pathfinder and Longfin reflect the west coast troller stern.Form tends to follow function (Sullivan) This is an example of design evolving to fill a need. Some sailors think their needs evolve as designers pull up pretty or faster as the only criteria for excellence. Others may be impressed with a sturdy counter to shuck oysters. Those probably balance affordability and practical comfort with NEW and modern. If you are just a dreamer, dream on. (Frank used to sit on my cap rail and talk about the old days)


Never heard about him and I got curious: That's an old one and had quite an interesting life. I like some of the designs.

"Francis E. Fredette was born in 1893 and first went to sea as cabin boy on a sealing schooner, the Eva Marie, out of Victoria. The six month winter voyage to the Bering Sea and Pribiloff Islands provided young Frank with the experience of a lifetime, and the basis of a life in boats. Pelagic sealing ended in 1911, too soon for Frank, but he went on to work in boatyards, build his own boats, and eventually create design drawings from carved half models."

Sealing Schooners

Frank Fredette

Some of his boats and drawings:













Edited: Ok, native girl out.


----------



## jak3b

Native Girl was designed and built by Allen Farrel.Frank Freddette had nothing to do with her.
http://www.woodenboat.org/boats/Boat_Detail.aspx?processID=316


----------



## Faster

jak3b said:


> Native Girl was designed and built by Allen Farrel.Frank Freddette had nothing to do with her.
> Native Girl


That was my first thought too, when I saw the picture.


----------



## Capt Len

Sorry Bob , Naybe I wasn't paying attention . Probably too busy working in local ship yards ,hanging with boat builders like Alan Farrel John Anderson,Brian Walker Mark Wallace to name a few and building my own wooden Spray. After 90 years Frank was entitled to his opinions and mocking them doesn't devalue them. Others,my self included, may have opinions you disagree with and it's your right to set us straight. Some may pay attention.


----------



## Classic30

Capt Len said:


> Sorry Bob , Naybe I wasn't paying attention . Probably too busy working in local ship yards ,hanging with boat builders like Alan Farrel John Anderson,Brian Walker Mark Wallace to name a few and *building my own wooden Spray*. After 90 years Frank was entitled to his opinions and mocking them doesn't devalue them. Others,my self included, may have opinions you disagree with and it's your right to set us straight. Some may pay attention.


I'm not sure if it's Bob or Brent you're after, but no matter.. As Brent posted, building in wood certainly is "complex" and requires a craftsman to do it properly.

... So, got any pictures Len??


----------



## outbound

A lot of the steel sprays have gone places. Slocum is one of my heroes. Especially as he was a local boy with streets and all kind of stuff named after him here abouts.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> How much you pay for stuff often has no relation to how good it is, in functional terms. Other wise you could double quality by simply doubling the price tag. My interior cost me around $50 for materials . That is certainly not 3/4 the cost of the boat.












These homes cost about the same as your interior. I assume your interior is just as nice.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Wood is the most complex, weakest, and least forgiving boat building material
> ever used, with the greatest number of liabilities. As Frank Freddette, an old sealing schooner designer, once told me "It doesn't make much sense to build a boat out of wood anymore. There are so much better materials available today."


As all the world's best yacht designers and nautical/materials engineers once told me "It doesn't make much sense to build a boat out of steel anymore. There are so much better materials available today."


----------



## bobperry

The colder it gets the weirder the posts get.
By February things should be truly strange around here.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> The colder it gets the weirder the posts get.
> By February things should be truly strange around here.


At least I'm warm and snug in my modern office with a gorgeous view of downtown making obscene amounts of money. I'll probably even go sailing next weekend.


----------



## jak3b

smackdaddy said:


> These homes cost about the same as your interior. I assume your interior is just as nice.


I like the second one from the left.Theres nothing like the sounds of rain on the roof,chickens in the yard,gangs and cops shaking the neighbors down....Ah paradise;-)


----------



## jppp

I have chickens in my yard.


----------



## smackdaddy

jppp said:


> I have chickens in my yard.


We all do. The real question is - do you have a half-finished steel sailboat in your yard?


----------



## Faster

smackdaddy said:


> We all do. The real question is - do you have a half-finished steel sailboat in your yard?


Or a cement one??  - may as well get them all in here!


----------



## Stumble

bobperry said:


> The colder it gets the weirder the posts get.
> By February things should be truly strange around here.


No kidding! All this 60 degree weather we are having makes it difficult to want to go sailing in shorts! I even had to hang up my boat flip flops for deck shoes last week, it was horrible!

Btw I love living in the south sometimes.


----------



## Brent Swain

mitiempo said:


> Brent
> 
> To me and according to Alex Christie's site origami is a folded method of construction. As everybody on this thread knows this is limiting in hull shapes possible. The Van De Stadt 34 is a steel multi chine boat built in a jig with framing added later. I see no "origami principles" involved here, no folded construction. It is clever but it is also very similar to many steel and aluminum hard chine boats built around the world as well as many single and multi chine boats built out of plywood. It also can create many different hull forms than can be built with a folded design.
> 
> Origami means folding. I don't see any folding on Van De Stadt's site or very many other builder's sites for that matter.


The jig only controls the midship section. The ends are controlled by the shape of the edges of the plate, which is the principle of origami construction. You could easily take the plate shapes and pull them together origami style, and end up with exactly the same hull shape. Or you could leave the seams attached in the ends, eliminating chines there, and end up with beautiful, well rounded ends, eliminating a huge amount of welding cutting and potential distortion.
The Van de Stadt in the picture could use a proper bulwark and proper lifelines. She looks precarious to sail on; one can easily slide under the trip wire style lifelines . 
The corners of the reverse transom are a maintenance night mare, as it is almost impossible to keep paint on them. One would be wise to do the corners in stainless. One client ran series of stainless downhand welds on his corners, then ground them fair, to give him stainless where the paint is inclined to chip. That reverse transom is hard to rig a simple self steering on , but it looks like that boat may work well with a large QME style vane .


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> I understand what you're saying in general. But are you sure that's the case in the above boats? What is the thickness of the skin in those? That's my concern.
> 
> Again, the guys building these may know exactly what they're doing (one of them especially is very well detailed). But where are those aluminum thickness specs laid out in Brent's books, DVDs, or drawings? Maybe they're there - I just haven't seen any evidence of it.


Looks like Jean Marc or Harvey's 55 footers. 3/8th inch 5086 was used on them. They passed coast guard certification for charter boats .Jean Marc who loves stormy weather, has cruised year round in Hecate strait area , enough miles to complete a circumnavigation. No problems . Far more accurate and reliable than your armchair calculations.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Have tried repetitively to move this thread back to what I perceived it's original intent and will try again.
> I looked at steel construction some time ago. Multiple designers offered plans at that time which included CDs with cutting files allowing nesting of plate/frame components maximizing usage of material and minimizing costs/labor. At that time there were multiple yards constructing in steel. I seem to recall Kanter ( since moved to all Al)in Canada, yards near Biloxi and up in the Bath Maine area. I recall you could approach a yard doing fish boats or work boats such as those around New Bedford and they would fabricate a hull and deck for you. I believe you could get a boat in "sail away" state allowing you to do the labor intensive in fill on your own but saving you innumerable hours and ensuring a fair, safe hull. Given the downsizing of the sailboat and fish boat construction industry in this country I have several questions:
> 1. Are these resources still available to Americans? If so where?
> 2.If so have the advances in CAD/CAM and other technologies expanded into this sphere?
> 3.Brent speaks to the durability of "old school" coating systems. Have there been advances in coating systems for steel boats that allow increased beauty with decreased maintenance?
> 4.Is demand sufficient that further understanding and advances in hull shape and design in recent years has been expanded into the genre of steel sail boats.?
> 5. What recent designs ( 15y to present) in steel are there or is this a material where limitations due the material and economics have not allowed any changes in paradigm?


Cad is slowly working its way into boat building. However it takes a lot of time to do for a one off, 
The flame spraying which Silas Crosby has, is the best way of eliminating corrosion and maintenance. A friend, who did a lot of research on the subject ,concluded that a mixture of aluminium and zinc was the most effective. As I mentioned earlier, frequent cleaning of the gun when using acetylene is critical to getting a good bond. Probably not a problem in the newer, electric arc types of guns.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Many of the contributors to this thread has alluded Al. There are active yards and designers in AL. I further wonder given the limitations of steel why anyone would currently build in steel The Al boat would be
> faster
> actually have reasonable resale value
> just as safe
> could incorporate modern design
> not require external paint beyond bottom paint
> Admittedly unless the home builder was skilled in TIG welding ( which I found just as easy as long as you moved the puddle and thought about heat distortion) and had access to a wind free environment construction in Al is problematic. Still given hull/deck usually compromise ~10-15% of total cost even if these are professionally constructed the "home builder" ends up with a better boat for 20-30% more money. I wish Brent and others would speak to this. Finally, most of us make more money doing what our "day job" is than we would save by home building. In Al you can still buy a "production boat" with appropriate certification ( CE, ABYC, Norske Veritas, German Lloyds etc) that would allow easily obtained insurance and financing.


The materials for an aluminium 36 was over triple the cost of steel, and the welding was also far more expensive, complex, weaker and far less forgiving. Aluminium boat owners are constantly struggling to find an antifouling which is effective and wont react with aluminium, disolving it. No conclusive solutions yet! Aluminium above the waterline is far more corrosion resistant than steel . Below the waterline it is far less so, and when it goes it goes far more rapidly, especially in electrically hot marinas. 
Unpainted aluminium in the tropics can burn the soles off your feet, in the sun. Painting it is the only solution.


----------



## Brent Swain

PCP said:


> I would say that very few top NA are designing steel boats, not even big steel yachts. Big steel yachts used to be made of steel and brands like Perini or Jongert used to build in steel but not anymore. The turning point happened for the more conservative brands, like these two, around 2000.
> 
> List of large sailing yachts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> You can look at this list and you can see clearly the abandon of steel has a building material for hulls at around 2000. After that almost all big hulls are aluminium.
> 
> The last famous one in steel was this one:
> 
> 
> 
> But that's because they used reused an old 1989 steel hull.
> 
> Older boats from Jongert or Perini have steel hulls, like these yachts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now these two shipyards, even on classic boats, use aluminium:
> 
> 
> 
> and obviously on the modern ones too:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding small sailingboat's hulls advantages in steel or aluminium, Berckemeyer gives a good explanation:
> 
> *CONSTRUCTION:
> 
> YACHT TYPES, ROUND BILGE / HARD CHINE:
> Generally, we prefer round bilge yachts for their better looks and performance (no sharp corners to create turbulence). Metal hard chine hulls may be 15-25% cheaper than round bilge ones of the same material, however, since with a custom built yacht the hull represents only about 30% of the value of the complete boat, the hard chine saving is only approx. 5-8% of the overall value, but the resale value of the whole yacht may be reduced by 25 % or more, compared to the round bilge counterpart.
> 
> BOAT BUILDING MATERIALS:
> Metal boats are the safest for serious long distance cruising, since unfortunately there is a lot of debris floating around, even lost containers. When you hit one of them with a GRP boat, you are in trouble. ...
> 
> ALUMINIUM YACHTS:
> Aluminium nowadays is the most popular building material with custom built long distance cruisers. You can leave it unpainted. Claims about electrolysis problems with Aluminium hulls are mostly exaggerated, however, this aspect should be observed and proper protection installed.
> 
> The following comparison will show the pros and cons of Aluminium versus steel:
> 
> Weight: Aluminium is lighter than steel for the same strength. Hence the available displacement can be utilized for carrying water, equipment and provisions, rather than a heavy steel structure.
> 
> More stable and faster: Due to their lighter weight, Aluminium boats have a lower centre of gravity and are therefore more stable and faster.
> 
> Appearance: In order to keep the weight of steel hulls down, plating is thinner than with Aluminium yachts. Therefore, over the years, steel hulls will often acquire a buckled appearance, with reduced resale value.
> 
> Labour saving: Light weight means labour saving during the construction of the hull. Also, Aluminium can be cut abt. 3x as fast as steel and it can be cut with normal woodworking equipment. Aluminium welds approc. 2x as fast as steel, even considering the thicker plating to be welded in the case of Aluminium construction.
> 
> Safety: Aluminium deforms or stretches beyond its elastic limit more than steel before rupturing. This is of particular importance when hitting floating objects ( it is estimated that approximately 10 00 containers are going overboard annually ).
> 
> Safety: Aluminium is non-sparking and non-magnetic.
> 
> Price of material: Aluminium is more expensive than steel, however, it does not require a very elaborate paint system for corrosion protection and the resale value of Aluminium yachts is the highest of all boatbuilding materials.
> ....
> STEEL YACHTS:
> Steel is the traditional material for metal boatbuilding. However, in spite of all claims that steel can be 100% corrosion protected, it still needs care and when you see a rusty spot on an exposed surface, you will have uneasy feelings about the hidden parts which will rust away undetected. Moreover, steel adds approx. 20% to the displacement as compared to Aluminium hulls, which could be better utilized by way of supplies. The resale value of steel boats is low
> 
> O. Berckemeyer*
> 
> Today Nas that still design sailboats in steel do that almost exclusively for amateur boat builders. Steel is harder to cut but much more easier to weld than the aluminium and for the low budget boat builder, that are not going to spend a lot on a good interior, good mast, good winches and good sails the difference in price will be important. Not to a shipyard where the cost of the hull only represents 30% of the cost of the boat and the difference in price between using aluminium of steel only a small fraction of that.
> 
> The designs that are made for amateur boat builders have not as main objective pure efficiency in what regards hull design but easiness of building and generally the designs offered on the market are old and have one or two dozens of years or more. Not properly the top of the crop in what regards hull design
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I cant think of any cruisers I know who would have any use for such huge "penis extenders." I certainly have no use for one.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> The materials for an aluminium 36 was over triple the cost of steel, and the welding was also far more expensive, complex, weaker and far less forgiving. Aluminium boat owners are constantly struggling to find an antifouling which is effective and wont react with aluminium, disolving it. No conclusive solutions yet! Aluminium above the waterline is far more corrosion resistant than steel . Below the waterline it is far less so, and when it goes it goes far more rapidly, especially in electrically hot marinas.
> Unpainted aluminium in the tropics can burn the soles off your feet, in the sun. Painting it is the only solution.


Wow, what a recipe for disaster! 3X-plus more expensive to build, weaker and less forgiving, slowly dissolving into the sea...in addition to equating to ZERO resale value, I'd say there are some charter customers in grave danger:



Brent Swain said:


> Looks like Jean Marc or Harvey's 55 footers. 3/8th inch 5086 was used on them. They passed coast guard certification for charter boats.


You really should warn the CG about these guys. Those "boats" are ticking time bombs!


----------



## Brent Swain

mitiempo said:


> A day or so ago we were discussing membership in various design associations.
> Earlier today I posted a link comparing steel and aluminum. It was to Michael Kasten's site. I have just spent some time looking at the rest of his site and was surprised to find he belongs to everything he probably can!
> 
> Royal Institute of Naval architects
> 
> Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers
> 
> Society of Boat and Yacht Designers (didn't know that existed)
> 
> Metal Boat Society
> 
> ABYC
> 
> Doesn't mean much to me, except possibly for ABYC, but I don't think I have seen such a list under one name before. Look at all those annual dues!


And his clients get the bill!
Such names and numbers and his comments are still as dumb as a stump.
He is definitely not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Think I will go to Tijuana and buy me some qualifications as a rocket scientist.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> He is definitely not the sharpest tool in the shed.


Said the ball of twine.


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> Hi Paulo
> 
> Alloy is a much better material for these sorts of boats, and particularly production metal boats.
> These were often not built with any though to longevity. Fitouts are often glued together and seamless, they look pretty but have to be destroyed to inspect or repair the hull. Hull repair costs are usually eclipsed by the necessity to remove and rebuild the interior. Neither is much thought given to ingress of water from the inevitable leaking ports and hatches that plague steel boats over time unless they are well designed.
> 
> Their are still some issues with production alloy boats. but generally it's limited to more localized areas. Steel boats need good design to be low maintenance, but it is possible. As I said earlier in this thread their are many venerable sailboats of great vintage in common use with steel hulls.
> 
> If I had the money and was having a custom sailboat boat built I'd use alloy, it's a gift currently given the energy it takes to produce it.


Design to minimize maintenance on steel boats requires a few decades of maintaining your own.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> " Until you sailed her with a tiller you would never know""
> I think a good quadrant wheel set up also would give you plenty enough feel to determine helm balance. I think choosing hydraulics is a pragmatic decision for installation and has nothing to do with balance. But I don't see anything in those pics to indicate hydraulic steering and in a boat like that hydraulkic steering would be very unusual.
> 
> Thanks for the compliment Brent but that's just not my style of boat. I suppose I could do it if a client asked for it but I prefer not to have to follow a style set down by fashion and trendyness. I like a more classic approach. I need to be excited about what I am doing.
> 
> I agree with Paulo that a good cruising boat designer is always studying the race boats to see how he can improve his cruising boat's performance. Performance remains a moving target. The Valiant 40 was born out of the early days of the IOR. My curiosity is enough to keep me interested in racing boat hull shapes. I find generally the fastest boats have beautiful, looking hulls. But today most of the really fast boats are so light that its hard to take away very much that will improve even a medium displ cruising boat. But you can try. You have to try.
> 
> For instance:
> On kdh's 46'er we ended up looking at two final hulls, one with deadrise and one that was tangent on centerline (flat bottomed). The tangent hull looked to be the quicker hull and gave a little more span to the keel fin. But the reduction is displacement was 1,000 lbs. almost exactly and with the tangent bottom I lost a natural bilge sump. I didn't like the idea of lsing 1,000 lbs of ballast because that's where the weight reduction would have to have come from. And, I didn't like the loss of the bilge sump. I've lived with flat bottomed boats before and they can be a PITA in terms of bilge pick up. I also lost 3" of structural floor height in the keel area. So in the end I stuck with the deadrise hull form that you see in the renderings. But we did look hard at the alternative.


Bill Tripp, a guy who had a good eye for shape, got screwed over royally by Columbia, when they conned him into a contract which let them put his name on some horrible looking monstrosities.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Surprised by Brent 's comment about wood. Maybe he was talking about plank on frame.seem to recall boats up to 100' being done in cold molded. Went up to Covey island and saw some of the gorgeous designs they were putting out in strip plank. Brent may want to investigate modern wood construction. Like Paulo points out real advances in construction techniques have occurred. Don't see much resorcinol now a days.
> Paulo you make a very good point. Production yards must built for the masses,must create buzz their boats is the new and improved version or go out of business. Bene is the largest yard in the world. They make a fine product and enjoy the cost effiencies that come with large production runs. They and Hanse, Catalina, or even Hunter have this advantage. The issue of keeping costs down, of designing to keep construction time down, of designs to create a boat that will look good in the shows also apply. But I think it's a wonderful thing Bob is still able to design and sell his designs. That two French seat of their pants sailors can design and actual build the Boreal. In short there remains and hopefully will always remain a non "for the masses" market.
> For myself ( and now >55 others) I know I 'd rather be on my boat when off the shelf than any of the "off the shelf" production boats. As I said before " different strokes for different folks". There is no right or wrong on this.


With any wood construction, the load in any one direction is always across the grain of most of its thickness. In triple laminated cold molded, only 1/3rd the load can be along the grain. In some directions, loads are all across the grain..


----------



## Brent Swain

PCP said:


> Never heard about him and I got curious: That's an old one and had quite an interesting life. I like some of the designs.
> 
> "Francis E. Fredette was born in 1893 and first went to sea as cabin boy on a sealing schooner, the Eva Marie, out of Victoria. The six month winter voyage to the Bering Sea and Pribiloff Islands provided young Frank with the experience of a lifetime, and the basis of a life in boats. Pelagic sealing ended in 1911, too soon for Frank, but he went on to work in boatyards, build his own boats, and eventually create design drawings from carved half models."
> 
> Sealing Schooners
> 
> Frank Fredette
> 
> Some of his boats and drawings:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edited: Ok, native girl out.


I once worked on that last one ( Night Wind ) in my youth. Didn't know Frank designed her.


----------



## PCP

Brent Swain said:


> With any wood construction, the load in any one direction is always across the grain of most of its thickness. In triple laminated cold molded, only 1/3rd the load can be along the grain. In some directions, loads are all across the grain..


Brent, put it on my bad English. I read this three times and don't understand what you mean. Can you explain it a bit better?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> These homes cost about the same as your interior. I assume your interior is just as nice.


If these folks could see the almost new materials we throw out regularly, it would give them wet dreams for weeks. 
Unlike in the US, all plywood made in BC uses the same waterproof glue as marine plywood. Even better if it has been used, as it has thus been tested over time. Put a filler, laminate, or veneer over it and its price tag becomes irrelevant.
I found some absolutely beautiful tropical hardwoods in motorcycle crates from Asia. Cost, zero!


----------



## Brent Swain

PCP said:


> Brent, put it on my bad English. I read this three times and don't understand what you mean. Can you explain it a bit better?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


If you put a load along the grain of one veneer, in a triple laminated hull, it is automatically across the grain of the other two laminations. Loads in some directions are across the grain of all three laminations. This is unavoidable in a material which has strength in one direction only.


----------



## PCP

Brent Swain said:


> I once worked on that last one. Didn't know Frank designed her.


It is a relatively recent design....for Franck that was born on the XIX century.

*Night Wind I is a Frank Fredette classic ketch built in 1964 in Victoria, British Columbia by Derek Verhey. She is heavily built of 1 1/8" Western red cedar planking of 1" x 2" bent oak frames, galvanized fasteners, and a cedar deck, very much like the fish boats of her time. She has galvanized standing rigging and spruce mast and spars.*

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Brent Swain

Time for me to head out cruising for a few days , from inside my wheelhouse , with my wood stove roaring.


----------



## outbound

Brent are you aware of any structural failures of any professionally built cold molded boats? Your argument is specious in the extreme. Even back during world war two using resorcinol mine sweepers made of wood were seeing hard service in the north sea during winter storms.


----------



## Faster

outbound said:


> Brent are you aware of any structural failures of any professionally built cold molded boats? Your argument is specious in the extreme. Even back during world war two using resorcinol mine sweepers made of wood were seeing hard service in the north sea during winter storms.


.. not to mention Mosquito fighter/bombers...


----------



## bobperry

"If these folks could see the almost new materials we throw out regularly,"

I think I saw Brent's feet sticking up out of a dumpster behind the supermarket the other night. His shoes didn't match.


----------



## Classic30

outbound said:


> Brent are you aware of any structural failures of any professionally built cold molded boats? Your argument is specious in the extreme. Even back during world war two using resorcinol mine sweepers made of wood were seeing hard service in the north sea during winter storms.


..and don't forget that, like the Mosquito's fuselage, those hulls were both extremely thin and extremely light to save cost and weight.

Going up a size, there are numerous racing yachts in New Zealand from the drawing boards of both Bailey and the Logan brothers cold-moulded in NZ Kauri that are as good as the day they were launched - over 100 years ago.


----------



## SloopJonB

What did they use as adhesive back then? 

Or are you referring to double diagonal planking?


----------



## jak3b

I dont think the Logan or Bailey boats were glued,I could be wrong, but they were definately double and triple diagonaly planked.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> "If these folks could see the almost new materials we throw out regularly,"
> 
> I think I saw Brent's feet sticking up out of a dumpster behind the supermarket the other night. His shoes didn't match.


That wasn't a dumpster silly. It was an origami boat.


----------



## bobperry

No smacks you're wrong. It was too good looking to be an origami boat.


----------



## Classic30

SloopJonB said:


> What did they use as adhesive back then?


Nails, pitch, Stockholm tar.. 



jak3b said:


> I dont think the Logan or Bailey boats were glued,I could be wrong, but they were definately double and triple diagonaly planked.


No, they weren't glued.. glues weren't good enough until 50 or so years later (WWII). But the discussion was regarding wood construction methods and I tend to think of triple-diagonal as being cold-moulding without the glue.


----------



## PCP

Brent after all I was understanding what you wanted to say but I just didn't believe you were saying that traditional wood boat building is stronger than a cold molded wood hull. I don't now anything about wood grain but I know that weight for weight a cold molded wood epoxy hull is much stronger. Have a look at this 157' yacht with the hull made of multiple layers of wood strips bonded with epoxy resin:



The boat was designed by Bruce King and built by Hodgdon.


----------



## bobperry

Wow!
Count the Dorade vents! That deck is like an obstacle course.


----------



## 34crealock

The deck looks like a cemetery. They seem to have those stainless protector things around each dorade to help snag your feet. What's up with that. Aren't they made of rubber and easily replaceable for a reason?


----------



## bobperry

I would expect those cowl vents to all be s.s. maybe alu and very expensive.


----------



## 34crealock

Why would anyone want a mine field on deck? I am a Mainiac so I might be a little numb.


----------



## PCP

34crealock said:


> The deck looks like a cemetery. They seem to have those stainless protector things around each dorade to help snag your feet. What's up with that. Aren't they made of rubber and easily replaceable for a reason?


Yes, very nice boat with that "little" problem. That's why modern boats use now other ventilation systems and not dorades

But I was posting about the hull being a wood- epoxy cold molded one

Regards

Paulo


----------



## outbound

Had a PSC 34 and she's a sweet boat and gorgeous but think that boat is not something I would turn down at Xmas as long as it came with a check book to allow for operating costs. Think in that huge scale you would have no need to walk down the center of the fore deck. Rather think you would walk along the high side gunnel. Plenty of room to walk side by side holding your honey's hand. Would love to see that thing with a bone in her teeth pass me by.


----------



## mstern

34crealock said:


> Why would anyone want a mine field on deck? I am a Mainiac so I might be a little numb.


Perhaps the owner is less concerned than you or I might be because its only the paid help that goes forward on a boat like that.


----------



## 34crealock

Outbound, if I could afford that beauty I could certainly afford the crew to run around on deck while I sipped rum drinks. She does look fast. 
Back to the thread, I saw a 20 something foot Channel cutter recently that had been T boned in the bow by a 60 foot sailboat. It only smashed in a couple of inches on deck and would have been fixable ,at sea.The old cutter is cold molded,diagonal decked and all. One of the many talented local wood boat builders had it looking perfect in no time.


----------



## SloopJonB

I was thinking that for the cost of all those cowl vents, one could buy a pretty nice boat of a sane size.

There are literally 10's of $thousands, just in the cowls - the dorades and guards are extra.


----------



## Faster

SloopJonB said:


> I was thinking that for the cost of all those cowl vents, one could buy a pretty nice boat of a sane size.
> 
> There are literally 10's of $thousands, just in the cowls - the dorades and guards are extra.


One of the overwhelming things you run into in ports like Antigua, St Maarten, and other 'destination' ports is the sheer numbers of megayachts you see... they are all 150' or larger and lined up like Sewells' rental boats..

Different world, for sure....


----------



## bobperry

I sent Brent a small but nice gift for Christmas. Its something he can use.
He must have received it by now.
Not a "I got it."
or a "Thanks AH."
No " Pretty cool, thanks."
Nuttin.
They must not have taught him any manners as a kid.
Weird.


----------



## outbound

Now the surprise is over will you share what you got him?


----------



## aeventyr60

It must have been a copy of the most important book out there: "How to make friends and Influence people"..


----------



## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> I sent Brent a small but nice gift for Christmas. Its something he can use.
> He must have received it by now.
> Not a "I got it."
> or a "Thanks AH."
> No " Pretty cool, thanks."
> Nuttin.
> They must not have taught him any manners as a kid.
> Weird.


While I understand your core point, maybe Brent is waiting until Christmas Morning to open his present and thank you. That does not preclude a 'got it'.


----------



## outbound

Jeff I have even more respect for you and am so sorry i missed you this fall. Always the gentleman .god bless you sir


----------



## Jeff_H

outbound said:


> Jeff I have even more respect for you and am so sorry i missed you this fall. Always the gentleman .god bless you sir


Thank you for your kind words. With a little luck there will be lots more falls and a lot more chances to meet. I'll look forward to meeting you as well.


----------



## PCP

Acubens 656 , a pretty light boat for an all steel boat...and it seems that it is also surprisingly fast. Designed by a Spanish naval engineer:

:::Construcción Comoloco:::


----------



## blt2ski

Actually, I believe Brent said a day or three ago, he was heading back out cruising in his warm pilot house boat. So while he may have received it! he may not have been to the mail pickup to "receive it!"

I also noticed the sliver is "OUTSIDE" the building, and has a mast on it! neat black bottom paint job.......that is about all I saw at 25 mph going by CSR! it is getting there!

Marty


----------



## mitiempo

I think Brent would like this sailor and his steel boat - and his budget! He spends a lot less than Brent and his boat looks pretty good as well.

Prinses Mia | The Shipping News | TownDock.net, Oriental NC

Interesting article with pics.


----------



## bobperry

I think you are right. Perhaps Brent is saving the package for Christmas morning.
I don't need a thanks I would just like to know he received it.

So for now we'll leave it as a surprise.

Marty:
Yes, They stuck the mast in FRANCIS LEE yesterday for the first time. Some more rigging details to be taken care of and then the cove stripe has to be applied in exact accordance with my drawing and dimensions.


----------



## SloopJonB

mitiempo said:


> I think Brent would like this sailor and his steel boat - and his budget! He spends a lot less than Brent and his boat looks pretty good as well.
> 
> Prinses Mia | The Shipping News | TownDock.net, Oriental NC
> 
> Interesting article with pics.


Definite soul brothers! The owners of that red boat sure are head of the class scumbags aren't they?


----------



## Classic30

bobperry said:


> Marty:
> Yes, They stuck the mast in FRANCIS LEE yesterday for the first time. Some more rigging details to be taken care of and then the cove stripe has to be applied in exact accordance with my drawing and dimensions.


She's looking good Bob (even if she ain't quite my cup of tea) - though I, for one, would be very interested to know how she performs on sea trial.

Perhaps you could post a video?


----------



## SloopJonB

My money is on zero pitching and zero wake. Speed goes without saying I think.

I doubt we'll ever know but I'd be interested in her fuel burn.


----------



## Classic30

My guess is she'll be quite a wet ride, but fast in any sort of chop.. hence the video request. ..and I do hope they aren't planning to mess up her sleek lines by fitting stanchions and life-rails.

She's kinda 'plank on edge'... without looking like a plank.


----------



## bobperry

No life lines, no stanchions.
Wet? Not sure. The cockpit is a loooonnggg way aft.
Not pitchy but will slam from time to time uphill in a chop.
No wake is the idea. We'll see how my stern shape works.
We will get a video.
Rudder went in this morning. Fitting for the tiller this afternoon.
Still needs the cove stripe.


----------



## outbound

you guys are killing me. 11 degrees outside and I have to go to work tomorrow. and you are talking about splashing a beautiful boat.


----------



## bobperry

Out:
It's 40 degrees here but with the rain chill factor it feels like 30 degrees.
You can sail in this weather but I prefer to work, inside, warm. dry.


----------



## Classic30

Ok. I won't tell you what the temperature is here at the moment (you can look it up yourself should you so choose), but I WILL say it isn't cold and there's lot of sailing happening really soon!

You're in the wrong country - that's all.


----------



## blt2ski

Bob,

the pic with the mast is about how I recall her looking as I went by in my maybe 1 sec glance yesterday about 1-2pm or there abouts. Did not see here out side today. 

Nice to know she is getting close to finished to some degree.

Marty


----------



## bobperry

Classic:
I have no doubt whatsoever that I am exactly where I want to be. I like the changing seasons. I like having a nice fire at night. I like wearing woolly clothing. It suits my sunny disposition.


----------



## chall03

bobperry said:


> Classic:
> I have no doubt whatsoever that I am exactly where I want to be. I like the changing seasons. I like having a nice fire at night. I like wearing woolly clothing. It suits my sunny disposition.


Winter for me is that one week in July when I probably shouldn't wear shorts 

I actually do know what you mean Bob, lately we actually have really enjoyed visiting 'cold' places in winter( generally New Zealand).

Having that experience of cosying up with a nice glass of red, in front of a fire with something yummy roasting in a oven is real nice.

Then again being able to sail all year round (ok actually there is no wind in Sydney in winter, so unless you are sailing a Bob Perry designed boat you drift more than sail), swim in the ocean for 10 1/2 months of the year and leave the house without your jacket and not die ( I spent 2 weeks in Winnipeg earlier this year ) is also kinda nice.


----------



## Faster

Chall... 2 weeks in Winnipeg????? Nasty - in the cold or fighting off mosquitoes the size of bats???


----------



## djodenda

bobperry said:


>


Didn't realize she was a yawl.. Rig seems unbalanced....


----------



## bobperry

The light blue hull with the wood stick behind FL is HELENE. HELENE is a late 1950's vintage Ben Seaborn design and a near sistership to the famous Seaborn SEA FEVER.
With fin keel and skeg hung rudder Seaborn was ahead of his time. He really knew what made boats go. 

I tried unsuccessfuly several times to find out what the relationship between Seaborn and Garden was like. Seaborn's boats were dominant on the race course. But despite the fact that both designers lived in Seattle I don't think they ever had much contact. Hard to imagine.


----------



## copacabana

Faster said:


> Chall... 2 weeks in Winnipeg????? Nasty - in the cold or fighting off mosquitoes the size of bats???


"But it's a dry cold!" ... as they love to say there.


----------



## chall03

copacabana said:


> "But it's a dry cold!" ... as they love to say there.


It was a very cold, cold. I had been warned about the Mosquitos as well but did alright in that regard.


----------



## SloopJonB

copacabana said:


> "But it's a dry cold!" ... as they love to say there.


It's also a dry 35 MPH wind. 

As the old saying goes - "There's nothing between them and the North Pole but a few barbed wire fences".

Or how about the seasons there? - "9 months of snow and 3 months of bad sledding".


----------



## djodenda

Bob.. where did your boat go? I stopped by yesterday and couldn't find her...


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
It's there. Probably in the shed. A SA buddy from Australia is here and he went to see it yesterday. He is pretty sure he saw it. Hard to mistake it. Too bad you didn't stop. You possibly could have met the client and got the tour.


----------



## djodenda

Awww..that's disappointing...

Must have been in the shed... Door to the shed was locked...

I walked around for a while and looked pretty hard. I was there around 2:00.. It was a last-minute trip, since the aircraft I was to fly to Charleston on never left the gate due to a maintenance problem..

(Not a locally made aircraft)

Oh well, maybe some other time..

CSR in Ballard, right?


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
Right. In Bllard.

Next time let me know and I'll make sure you have access to the boat.


----------



## djodenda

bobperry said:


> Denda:
> Right. In Bllard.
> 
> Next time let me know and I'll make sure you have access to the boat.


Thanks, Bob.. I'd be grateful. I rescheduled my trip for tomorrow. Hopefully we won't have airplane problems again. But if it happens again, I will call first.

(A locally built plane this time)


----------



## blt2ski

David,

Too bad it was locked up. It is a beautiful boat. Not sure it would work for how you and I sail....but that does not mean one can not admire it for what it is!

Marty


----------



## djodenda

Part of what makes this interesting to me is to think about what I would want if I could commission a boat "just for me"...

I hereby volunteer to help get the boat through the locks for the first time. I offer basic skills, patience, extra fenders, and line.


----------



## outbound

That's a great question. Paulo tells us what's available. Bob shows us what's possible. But there hasn't been a discussion of what we really what. I mean not on the zillion dollar one off sphere but if we were designing a production or small run production boat. Of course would need to divide the discussion into
day sailor
coastal
blue water
high latitude
or like divisions

Still, would be a interesting discussion.
what material
what hull shape
what appendages
what size
what sail plan
what interior features

?anybody want to join in?


----------



## SloopJonB

outbound said:


> That's a great question. Paulo tells us what's available. Bob shows us what's possible. But there hasn't been a discussion of what we really what. I mean not on the zillion dollar one off sphere but if we were designing a production or small run production boat. Of course would need to divide the discussion into
> day sailor
> coastal
> blue water
> high latitude
> or like divisions
> 
> Still, would be a interesting discussion.
> what material *Cold moulded wood*
> what hull shape *Clipper bowed - old looking*
> what appendages *Deep fin & bulb*
> what size *45-ish'*
> what sail plan *Staysail Schooner*
> what interior features *Pullman double and aft head, very woody & brassy.*
> 
> ?anybody want to join in?


My choices are the highlights.


----------



## blt2ski

outbound said:


> That's a great question. Paulo tells us what's available. Bob shows us what's possible. But there hasn't been a discussion of what we really what. I mean not on the zillion dollar one off sphere but if we were designing a production or small run production boat. Of course would need to divide the discussion into
> day sailor
> coastal
> blue water
> high latitude
> or like divisions
> 
> Still, would be a interesting discussion.
> what material
> what hull shape
> what appendages
> what size
> what sail plan
> what interior features
> 
> ?anybody want to join in?


This is really no different of a question than the multitude of "what boat would you buy?" threads. Some have attempted at what you can afford, some from the sky is the limit........

I know the style of boat and where I would start at to help said designer get started.....where it finishes is another story. I've always like Jeanneaus sun fast 35. I would start with that, do a few tweaks and changes, it would probably end up around 38-40' OA. Real similar to the new SO 349 just introduced. I would actually find that hull a better start, but I know I would end up with at least a foot more draft, and another 100# of SA..........someday maybe.

best to be a different thread frankly imho not that it counts for more than .01.

Marty


----------



## outbound

Jon- Why staysail schooner? I know they are more weatherly and used to see an sweet Cherubini 48 sail by frequently when I sailed out of Marion but now with current options for boomed sails a true schooner is as easy to sail even single. Love your choices but would go with jib being 7/8 of fore mast and fore mast 7/8 of main mast. Somehow I think that's the prettiest rig and a "man and a boy" can handle it in anything Neptune throws your way. I think it's a same the various split rigs are gone from the production ranks as for cruising they make so much sense.


----------



## outbound

Marty was not thinking "what boat you would buy". Think we end up with boat is available that's closest to what boat we would want. Like you and the SO 349. Wanted input on what we want. Think to some extent production builders are tone deaf to what we would want. For instance Jon's thoughts are interesting to me as I respect his experience and at present to my knowledge there is only one builder of schooners in this country. They are narrow full keeled boats. Beautiful but a reputation for being wet. Seeing a schooner with a modern hull and bulbed fin would be wonderful.


----------



## SloopJonB

outbound said:


> Jon- Why staysail schooner? I know they are more weatherly and used to see an sweet Cherubini 48 sail by frequently when I sailed out of Marion but now with current options for boomed sails a true schooner is as easy to sail even single. Love your choices but would go with jib being 7/8 of fore mast and fore mast 7/8 of main mast. Somehow I think that's the prettiest rig and a "man and a boy" can handle it in anything Neptune throws your way. I think it's a same the various split rigs are gone from the production ranks as for cruising they make so much sense.


Because they're the most beautiful rig and I'm only dreaming.  I'd buy a Cherubini in a heartbeat if I had a spare $750K lying around.

I'm sure the maestro could draw up a big staysail rig that would work to windward pretty well.

Also, I'd be able to say things like "Hoist the gollywobbler". 

P.S. My thoughts are well along the "Nightrunner" kind of thing but looking more like a Cherubini.

And I'd have the big diesel stove.


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## blt2ski

Out,

That is probably true in that we would buy what is available.......BUT, with that in mind many of us find what is available to work just fine, but would like some things tweaked. 

I would probably extend said boat a foot or two, along with a 2-3' prod to handle a fixed assymetric setup. Along with putting the anchor at the end, so that I could have a straight flush front. But in reality, all I have done is add the nose part with the fixed prod to a more std bow section, so I am not hitting the anchor on the bow when puling it up. Is this a good bad thing?!?!? who knows. just a different way of approaching an issue that is well known in my eye. Might even be better than a typical bow overhand, in that even this design could catch the sharp end of an anchor if it is swinging a bit. Possibly a better answer.

I would also have the forestay off the bow some, so one could have a below deck jib furler. This way I keep the SA low to the deck, with less farther above and off the deck so hopefully less heeling etc. I would also do a fractional rig with the biggest jib in the 120-130 range, and an option when it is spouse and I with a self tending 95% fore triangle jib. Total sail area would be around 23 to 25-1 for upwind work. Being as it is rather light winded here in the salish sea. 

Down wind I want a hull that will allow 2x the hull speed with a crew on board in winds say over 20 knots. might need 25......that is another story for the designer to figure out. 

Keel could be at least 7 if not 8' for where I sail here. This will also keep the boat lighter overall so speed specs could be met. 

The SO349 and even the SF35 do not quite have the SA to meet the speed specs, but with some tweaking may be able to do so. The SF35 is around 24-1, the SO349 21-1 IIRC for both. 

I'm pretty much doing week night around teh can racing, some on weekends, daysailing to weekending, with maybe one or two week longs in the summer. so my useage is different than others too. SO the how one uses a boat as you pointed out,needs to be kept in mind.

THere are some things like single vs dual rudders......not sure personally, that would probably have to be decided be how fat the ass end is to a degree. or do a really deep single rudder if the boat will heel some in certain conditions. I also prefer tillers over wheels from a steering standpoint. If the boat is fat in the rear, a tiller may not allow me the abiltity to see things to the side, so dual wheels may need to be done. 

Sail lines etc would all be led to cockpit so a single person can get to ALL the lines. Line control cars would also be the norm for jibs and mainsail. So much easier to adjust the jib cars with lines from the cockpit vs pins and having to go forward and kick them......I mentioned this to the owner of Cape George boats a few weeks back. He had at the time the same opinion of some racing gimicks like this, but once I mentioned I can adjust the cars from the cockpit.....a lot nicer than going forward. He began to see the light on that item. 

Marty


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> That's a great question. Paulo tells us what's available. Bob shows us what's possible. But there hasn't been a discussion of what we really what. I mean not on the zillion dollar one off sphere but if we were designing a production or small run production boat. Of course would need to divide the discussion into
> day sailor
> coastal
> blue water
> high latitude
> or like divisions
> 
> Still, would be a interesting discussion.
> what material
> what hull shape
> what appendages
> what size
> what sail plan
> what interior features
> 
> ?anybody want to join in?


By the time my first boat hit the water , I had along list of things I wish I had done differently . For my second it took tan years to get to that stage . In my current boat, after 29 years of mostly full time cruising in her, there is very little I would do differently.

Definitely blue water and high latitude capable . I believe in designing and building all sail boats over 265 feet with that capability. If I don't use her that way, some future owner may .

Definitely steel. The fact that it is increasingly popular with experienced offshore cruisers ( unlike the marina queen crowd, who believe everything the industry tells them to believe ) reflects the reality of long term offshore cruising. ( read Jimmy Cornell's book on offshore cruising)
Single chine does everything a cruising boat is required to do with out the huge expense, and fillers of rounding steel .

Twin keels and outboard rudder, hung on a very strong skeg, which is also the engine cooler.

30 to 36 feet . Larger boats tend to hang out in main ports, while smaller boats , being so much easier to handle, get away a lot more, and see a lot more places.
Cutter with removable staysail is so well proven that it is almost universal among offshore cruisers. Variations from this have not proven advantageous in any substantial way. It also increases the availability of used sails, often in almost new condition, at less than the cost of materials.

Interior? Bunks which can be used in offshore conditions, and an interior which works when the boat is well heeled for weeks on end . Enough insulation and a good heat source and inside steering, to make the boat useable in both tropical and high latitude conditions , year round.


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## bobperry

"after 29 years of mostly full time cruising in her, there is very little I would do differently."

Ahhh, the active, creative mind at work.

More like in irons.

Brent: did you ever get your package?


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## outbound

Great answer Brent. Too the point and speaks to your needs.
For me, I have no interest in high latitude sailing been cold and scared often enough to fill my life time needs. Neither do I want inside steering as I've spent enough time inside and don't want to harness and dress every time I need to tend the boat.. I do want to be able to get out of the weather. So a hard dodger suffices. I like to sit at anchor under the dodger with my morning coffee even when it rains.I love the look and ease of a split rig.

material- solid fiber but lay up to include modern materials to increase impact resistance. Still like a solid layup as easier to fix should need arise. solid copper laid in as fish scale pattern. ( SSB ground and no bottom painting.)Synthetic core in decks is fine. NO exterior wood. Interior wood all solid. NO veneers. Blond teak is pretty forever.

watertight bulkheads forward to allow safety and storage of sails, fenders and other light stuff. watertight bulkhead aft in front of rudder posts
high aspect ,balance spade rudder as design and materials have moved along to the point they are as safe and strong as prior skeg hung. The gain in feel and efficiency is worth the expense. But would want top bearing/rudder tube above waterline.
Split rig- either double headed true schooner or ketch. Ability to run all sail controls from cockpit.
high aspect lifting keel. Might go with twin rudders to allow drying out on tripod of keel and rudders. 
true sea berths- at least one either side in saloon, small double in quaterberth and island queen forward ( to have fun and snuggles with wife when at anchor)
c shaped galley to allow cooking without getting burnt or using straps. Deep, deep sinks. Two heads. separate shower room. work room.
hybrid propulsion on z drive placed just aft of keel. No need for thrusters. Prop can "free" spin and charge batteries Solar panels on top of hard dodger and Bimini with two wind generators deployed just below mainmast spreaders with ability to bring down to the deck in very high winds. Aft deck set up for integral life raft locker, strong points for JSD and storage of drogue and Hydrovane. Integral ladder to deck or sugar scoop with walk through. Accomendation for dinghy when passaging ( ?recess in fore deck or incorporated into stern).
Forced hot water heat. dehumidifier +/or AC with zones
"keeling cooling" for all engines incorporated into hull design to decrease parasitic drag but with excellent mufflers no open dry stacks
Number of hull piercing decreased by using manifolds and those present in sea chests or being standpipes. 
As much natural light and ventilation as possible but no hull portlights ( still think they are ugly and dangerous)
Interior thought out so a place for everything and everything in its place becomes easy.
cockpit drains straight off stern, side decks/ house drain in to funnels in cockpit. Diversion of this to tank to allow fresh water collection.
Under 50' LOA to allow passage through Panama without additional assistance or fees.
my .02 cents


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## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> If the builder converts 3/16 steel plate to 1/4 alloy that's only an increase of 1.3 times which will be a little weaker than steel but not alarmingly so.
> 
> Talking common boatbuilding materials. Alloy needs to be 1.4 times thicker that steel to have the same resistance to buckling. Stiffness scales linearly to Youngs modulus and by the cube of the material thickness. Young modulus or stiffness (desigated E in GPa) of most boat building alloys is around 70 and steel is 200. so for the same thickness alloy is only 35% as stiff (for 30% of the weight). If we take the cube root of (1 / 0.35) we get 1.42 as the required thickness increase. Or one half the weight of the equivalent structural material for the hull for 1.4 times the volume of material.
> 
> Alloy makes sense for lightweight boats and can be further lightened and made stronger by adding framing since deflection also goes by the cube of the span. So halving the span reduces deflection by a factor of 8. That's why with alloy you juggle the skin and framing to find a good balance of strength and weight.
> 
> But novel alloy structures also need a careful analysis to ensure that not only material stress is within fatigue and buckling limits, but weld stresses are below the fatigue stress allowances. Alloy should also be professionally welded. It's the worst material for the home builder to attempt to build in and it's very easy to produce nice looking welds which have no penetration and can fail easily.
> 
> But I think you'd be daft to build an alloy Brent boat, you'd never recoup the material costs in resale. You'd buy a used Brentboat for less than the alloy cost.
> 
> It would be much more sensible to opt for a better designer and build compliant to ISO or some class scantlings. At least they catch the design pitfalls which can be numerous. With alloy the devil really is in the detail. You would also have a much better cost to strength ratio.
> 
> You find that most common materials have quite similar stiffness to density figures or what's called 'Specific Modulus' Lighter materials have the benefit of being able to increase stiffness with thickness at a much greater rate than they increase total mass. But lot of boats don't benefit much from a lighter hull construction particularly if they are a heavier type of vessel by design. Alloy does corrode less but a hot zinc or aluminium sprayed steel hull (internal deck and even topsides) comes close in durability if you can afford it.


Span has nothing to do with what direction the framing runs in . Otherwise ,one would have to believe, as it appears Mike does, that if you take a flat plate with stiffeners running vertically, and turn it 90 degrees, so they run horizontally, the plate immediately loses all strength, and you have two options to regain that strength . Either turn it back upright, when it will immediately regain it's lost strength ,or cut the stiffeners off and re weld them back on, running vertically.
Sea captain and cruise ship designer Emanuel ( at sealegacy.com) said they have calculations for running stiffeners either way.
With the Van de Stadt 34 , frames are structurally irrelevant, as the chines, far stronger than frames, are close enough together to give far more strength than any transverse frames could ever give. They are merely there to appease those who are incapable of thinking of structural strength in three dimensions. Span in that case, is the distance between chines. Longitudinal curve takes the place of transverse framing, when it comes to strength and stiffness, doing a far better job of it, without the hard spot, point loading, and increased suceptibility to holing of transverse framing and thinner plate. Ditto longitudinal stringers. The plate support of transverse framing only goes a couple of inches either side of them. Chines are far stronger, in that they maintain the curve of the topsides , adding far more strength that the merely local stiffening a couple of inches either side of transverse frames . 
Thinner plate with more framing has far greater chance of being holed on a shipping container, or a sharp rock, than thicker plate with less framing. It is also far more expensive and labour intensive to build, and far less forgiving when it comes to corrosion. .It is also much harder to eliminate distortion in.

Many make the common mistake of confusing resale price with resale value. Resale price is what you can get for a boat. Resale value is the difference between what you can get for a boat, and what she cost you in the first place . The higher the cost of building the boat, the narrower the gap between the cost of building and the resale price. My first steel boat sold for over 4 times what she cost me to build. The first 31 I built, the owner sold for three times what she cost him to build. Both buyers felt they got a great deal . It is not uncommon for some to spend an extra $40 K to increase the resale price by $20K, a net loss of $20K.( negative resale value)
The gap between building cost and resale price of an aluminium boat and a steel one would usually put the aluminium one at a distinct disadvantage. While the resale price of aluminium would be greater, the gap between price and cost ( resale value) would be far narrower than with steel. Aluminium could well work out to a net loss ( negative resale value.)


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## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> Well this is important because you may dupe someone into building something dangerous.
> 
> But that's not the only boat it happened to is it ! It was an illustration of your approach to designing by mistakes. I'm just illustrating that your intuition was incorrect. You initially thought it would be strong enough because of the curvature, although any designer worth his salt could have foreseen the weakness and the consequent buckling of the supporting plate. Something you didn't grasp until it happened. I think it's a good example of where some sensible engineering would have helped you from the start.
> 
> So you modified the plans after it had happened to other boats.
> Now you are pretending it only happened to one boat in extreme circumstances after you altered the plans and wrote this .
> 
> "Given the tendency for the trailing edges of the twin keels to be driven up into the boat when they collide with a rock, and the fact that they are far enough back to be under the pilothouse floor in the 36, putting a 3/16th plate web across them would reinforce them without being in the way of anything. The top of this web could be T'd with a piece of ½ inch by 4 inch flatbar, making it extremely strong."
> 
> What exactly does this have to do with your earlier designs rotating their keels up into the boat ?
> 
> But you had nothing to do with these designs, and you can't say what framing was used, you are just borrowing them because they started life as origami, not frameless. They have exactly nothing to do with scaling your frameless designs.
> 
> No you are being deceptive again I'm not saying your boats under 36' are not strong enough. I said a scaled up design sans frames wouldn't be strong enough.
> 
> I have shown that pre welding the longitudinals flat and then pulling them into a curve along with the plating is weaker than post welding after foldup and I showed you why. So your method is weaker than you could achieve with the same material, its why your designs will dent easily.
> 
> If you pre stress something its already under load, when you push in the middle of that member it deforms more easily and again I showed you and explained why. You had no comprehension about stress reversal nor about buckling. You still don't. The internal longs cannot stay in compression under load, if you push on the hull they can only work to resist the load by going into tension because they are not in enough of a curve to be self supporting like the arch. So by pre bending them along with the plate you make them weaker, they want to straighten which assists the load in deflecting the side of the hull rather than resisting it.
> 
> That the longitudinals are arches always in compression is the whole basis of your strength argument which is simply wrong.
> 
> This in important because it's easy to show that you cannot scale your boats to 60 feet as you claim. Simply because your structural arguments are completely flawed and based on intuition. I offered to model a hull and give the imploding depth in a bow dive, you didn't want to know.
> 
> Any frameless design scaled much over 36 feet will start to get quite weak without some transverse framing. I'm still happy to model it if it saves someones bacon.
> 
> So save your 3 knot collisions in sub 36' frameless origami boats, that's where it works, I don't have a problem with that. Even if you design weak boats for the material used they may well be strong enough becaue the material is so tough anyway.
> 
> Anyone who understands structures can explain to you why shell buckling renders thin shell monocoque unsafe if it's simply scaled . You can ask any naval arch mechanical or marine engineer. You'll get the same information. Try it we are all approachable.
> 
> Again what does this have to do with scaling your design or your misunderstanding of how structures work exactly ?


 Thinner plate with a lot of transverse faming is less likely to be holed than thicker plate with less framing?
Presser of longitudinals outwards, reduces its ability to resist inward pressure?
Only one of my boats, who's builders ignored my plans, has ever been holed behind the keels, and that at far above hull speed on a solid rock, yet you claim, from Australia, without having ever seen any of my boats, to know of many more that I am not aware of ,and you claim I am being deceptive?
You claim that logitudinals, arcs, under longitudinal compression, are not under compression when faced with inward pressure?
Man what a crock.

Someone without the ability to comprehend such simple basics, is definitely not a reliable source of any info on the structural factors in a metal hull.


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## blt2ski

Out,

WHile I like the comments about your dream boat, I can not come up with a picture in my mind as to how the boat should look! You've rattled off all the what you want, but nothing to give a designer a picture other than a fixed dodger. You could end up with all that you want, but nothing as far as hull looks go! Maybe I am missing something.....

At least with Johns and my start, one has an idea on the general look of the hull, speed potential etc. 

Marty


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## Lou452

What would I like ? I would like a few of you all to look at my thread in learning to sail ( FJ open stern or transom ) Maybe Bob or PCP Brent.. Wish I saw that Wolf en ease from the full keel vs fin keel thread.
I like that you all do not agree. Worst thing is a bunch of yes men in a group you always know the answer

1st I would like a boat that floats regardless of how much water gets in . Etap had this going for them. The boat should be the life raft.
2nd I want a boat that is stable with in reason to be able to sail to the wind and have a little speed.
3nd I want a boat that you can get dry You can hand bail or pump it out. It will not be scuttled full of water. So many boats if they were on their side and the tide came in went down the companion way the boat is on the bottom. pooped or breached with an open companion way The boat is on the bottom.
A boat should float and be able to dry out.
4th what about all the leaks? thru hulls, chain plates, hatches , Deck to hull
5th my comfort if you have the first four this is going to be easy for the next 5 I am not going to sink I can be dry and get dry I am learning how to sail. Swimming is not sailing. Dry boats are the best boats. 
Good Day, Lou


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Span has nothing to do with what direction the framing runs in . Otherwise ,one would have to believe, as it appears Mike does, that if you take a flat plate with stiffeners running vertically, and turn it 90 degrees, so they run horizontally, the plate immediately loses all strength, and you have two options to regain that strength . Either turn it back upright, when it will immediately regain it's lost strength ,or cut the stiffeners off and re weld them back on, running vertically.


I have no words. This statement is a true exhalation of ignorance.

Beautiful.



Brent Swain said:


> Many make the common mistake of confusing resale price with resale value. Resale price is what you can get for a boat. Resale value is the difference between what you can get for a boat, and what she cost you in the first place . The higher the cost of building the boat, the narrower the gap between the cost of building and the resale price. My first steel boat sold for over 4 times what she cost me to build. The first 31 I built, the owner sold for three times what she cost him to build. Both buyers felt they got a great deal . It is not uncommon for some to spend an extra $40 K to increase the resale price by $20K, a net loss of $20K.( negative resale value)


And this one...stupendous. Why, Warren Buffet would KILL for a 400% return! Maybe I should fill him in on the incredible investment opportunity in steel boats.

Brent...your shoes are calling...


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## bobperry

I just asked Brent if he had received my package. Can't bother to reply.
Somebody should have taught him simple manners.


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## outbound

Always liked the look of the Murray Peterson schooners. Realize design of hull shapes has moved forward but would like to achieve that look. Would have a single house not split as in many of his designs. But retain dual companionways. Would have bow sprit easily retractable to decrease LOA when necessary. Would use variant of Bergstrum rig with carbon masts so no backstay on main mast. Sail design would appear close to gaff rig without dual halyards necessary. 
Bob- maybe he does not have a "package" and that's why he could not reply. Woo, don't often hit below the belt but it was too good to let by.


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## PCP

outbound said:


> That's a great question. Paulo tells us what's available. Bob shows us what's possible. But there hasn't been a discussion of *what we really what*. I mean not on the zillion dollar one off sphere but if we were designing a production or small run production boat. Of course would need to divide the discussion into
> day sailor
> coastal
> blue water
> high latitude
> or like divisions
> 
> Still, would be a interesting discussion.
> what material
> what hull shape
> what appendages
> what size
> what sail plan
> what interior features
> 
> ?anybody want to join in?


Out, I don't know exactly about what you would see as the perfect cruiser (I suspect it has much to do with what the Outbound offers) but I know for sure that it would not be what I would want neither what Brent would want.

When you talk about "WE" I think you are talking about sailors in general and in what regards that, generally, what they want is what is being offered by the market in its different offers.

The ones that have less financial constraints and can have a broader choice regarding what they want are the ones buying new boats or commanding them to NA. Boat manufacturers work a lot to offer what sailors want, they explore almost all types of desires and needs doing an incredibly number of different types of boats suited to very different types of sailing and sailor's tastes. when they fail to do that they don't sell boats and go bankrupt.

The ones that don't find the right type of boat on the market and have the need of having a special type of boat designed expressly to satisfy their needs are very few, as few as the percentage of one off's regarding the number of produced boats.

Then the "WE" does not apply as referring to the boats generally sailors want but regarding the boat some very particular sailor wants and has no statistic relevancy.

Your idea could be fun but only if you found a significant number of sailors that shared precisely the same types of needs and tastes you have, otherwise you would have sailors with very different tastes and needs suggesting completely different types of boats even for doing exactly the same kind of cruising you do.

Brent's post is relevant about that: He talks about what is a perfect boat to him, one that he developed for decades and that now he feels that pretty much has all the requirements he sees on a perfect cruising boat. Very little to improve.

Off course, we have already saw that he is completely unable to understand that what is perfect for him and his sailing program would not be perfect for others. I hope you don't turn out like him and understand that talking about the perfect sailing boat, even if it is about the perfect bluewater cruiser for all, makes no sense. There are just too many variables, too many different tastes, too many ways of designing a good bluewater boat and once again the market shows you that and what are the different options bluewater sailors are choosing. If you want to know the one that is the more common choice in what regards type of boat and brand, you have just to see who is having more success in what regards clients, meaning *who is selling more* bluewater voyage cruisers.

There are many types and brands working for the sailors that want that kind of boat, sailors with a common objective (voyage) but very different sailing tastes and a different opinions about what should be the perfect bluewater voyage boat. Your opinion is not better or worse than any of the ones that are choosing those boats and voyaging in them, in what regards what is a perfect bluewater cruising boat. Some of the Brands:

Gozzard, Island Packet, Outbound, Passport, Sabre, Halberg Rassy, Najad, Wauquiez, OVNI, Outremer, Pogo, Amel, RM, Xyachts, Oyster, Allures, Nautitech, Nordship, Southerly, Catana, Regina, Cigale, Boreal, Malo, Solaris, Ruster, Contest, Gunfleet, Garcia, Discovery are just some of the brands that have in their line boats designed with extensive cruising and voyaging in mind. There are certainly much more left, some that are just smaller firms, others I cannot remember at the moment but just among these there are hugely different types of boats that are the perfect bluewater boat but certainly not the perfect bluewater boat for the same sailor

Regards

Paulo


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## outbound

Paulo- think you missed the point of the question. Their are very intelligent and experienced sailors on this thread. I've enjoyed their input greatly. You view things from what the market offers. I was curious as to what this select group of fellows sailors would want. For instance when I surveyed the offerings I choose Outbound. I'm happy with my choice and think of available offerings came closest to my heart's desires. If a practical schooner or ketch was offered with similar features depending on price and build quality I may have built that. I realize I'm one small insignificant person in this market so view your post as besides the point whereas Brent's spoke directly too the point.


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## Jeff_H

I like the question that was posed by Outbound. It gets to the heart of something that often crosses my mind when I see or worse yet write, the word 'ideal' in the context of boats. Its seems like the term 'ideal' should almost always be accompanied by the questions, 'for whom?' and 'for what use?'. Outbound's query seems to go to the heart of that, and the responses have shown a very bright light on the how the 'for whom?' impacts the 'ideal' in ways that really surprised me after years of reading posts by some of the respondents.

Anyone who has read more than a handful of my my posts would probably admit that I am somewhat predictable on these questions, but here are my responses.
Day sailor: Yes
Coastal: Yes
Blue water: Probably
High latitude: Not a chance in hell

Still, would be a interesting discussion.
What material: Cold molded wood/ composite or higher tech FRP
What hull shape: See drawings
what appendages: See drawings
what size: 16000 lbs
what sail plan: Fractional sloop
what features: 
In my opinion a coastal cruiser which is optimized to permit offshore passage making and so should offer the following traits:

Should be seakindly which means an easy motion. Seakindliness coming from long waterline relative to overall length, fine entry, minimal weight in the ends of the boat, moderate beam, Vee'd hull sections forward and elliptical hull sections (not too round and not too hard a bilge) from amidships aft, a low vertical center of gravity, a tall enough but light enough rig to slow roll without increasing roll angle dramatically.

Ideally should be robust and simple. Weight should not be expended on fancy interiors or excess weight in areas that are solely for show. The hull and deck should have small panel areas with reasonably close framing and bulkheads. Details should be simple and solid.

Should have an easily driven hull so that it can get by with smaller sails and a smaller sail inventory making it easier to handle across the wide range of wind and sea conditions that will be encountered. Sail plans and under water foils should be robust and efficient. I don't think that a skeg hung, or keel hung rudder is necessary, and in many ways I think that an outboard rudder makes more sense in terms being able to check and maintain it, and use a simplified self-steering.

I personally would want a fractional rigged sloop rig for its ease in adapting to changeable conditions. I would want a permanently affixed track for the storm trysail. I am of two minds on a removable stay for a storm sail, vs. one that goes up the foil with safety ties incorporated.

Sailing systems need to be robust, easily operated, suitable to short-handing and easy to maintain offshore. Here there needs to be a balance between having the tools to do the job efficiently vs. being overly complex and maintenance prone.

Electronics and the electrical system also need to be simple, and no more than necessary to get by. Here again there need to balance between having enough to do the job efficiently vs. being overly complex and maintenance prone. In my opinion, the boat needs to be operable without an electrical system should the worst happen.

The boat needs to be adequately burdensome to carry all of the consumables and spares that are required for distance voyaging. There needs to be solid, secure and low in the boat food storage lockers. Water tankage needs to be adequately large, with multiple and maintainable tanks. Other types of tankage and storage are less critical.

Ideally there should be complete access to the skind of hull everywhere in the boat.

Deck houses should be low and there should be solid foot and hand holds along the deck. There needs to be good ventilation, which can be secured from leakage when offshore; large portlights and hatches are a no-no.

There needs to be a way to secure ground tackle off the deck and to secure hawse pipes when offshore. There needs to be really great ground tackle and ground tackle handling gear.

There should be narrow passage ways in the cabin, with good foot holds and hand holds, so you are not thrown about. Galleys and heads should be small so you can brace yourself when in them. Refrigeration is less important than good dry storage. I want a dedicated shower.

I would want water tight compartments in the bow and stern, with the propshaft and rudder post within the aft compartment.

I would want about 15,000 to 17,000 Lbs of displacement.

A protected on deck 'watch station' would be important. I would not want a pilot house. A liferaft compartment should be an integral part of the design, as should a solid solution to store a dinghy.

I drafted the images below during the late Wolfenzee's ideal boat discussion as 'My version' if I had Wolf's displacement to work with. In reality, my ideal boat would be a foot or two longer and there would be a dedicated shower/ wet locker aft of the head. But this gives the general idea.


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## outbound

Jeff- It's a beautiful craft. Just like none of the builders Paulo mentioned build a schooner, to my knowledge none have rudders in this size with rudders on gudgeons and pindles with a lifting keel. Looks like a sturdy craft that would be maintainable anywhere


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## Jeff_H

outbound said:


> Jeff- It's a beautiful craft. Just like none of the builders Paulo mentioned build a schooner, to my knowledge none have rudders in this size with rudders on gudgeons and pindles with a lifting keel. Looks like a sturdy craft that would be maintainable anywhere


Thank you very much for the kind comments.

Jeff


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## beiland

*Steel Hull, Composite Superstructure. Motorsailers*



CaptainQuiet said:


> I'm thinking about making the leap from fiberglass to steel for our next sailboat. We want to do some far flung cruising - maybe even circumnavigate. Our present boat is a 1977 Tartan 37 and while we love it - since we've had a child and possibly will have another one on the way it might get a bit small for a liveaboard situation.
> This summer I drove a big, old steel tour boat around the finger lakes and started thinking that steel might be a good way to get my family around the big marble.
> I've spent a week in the Caribbean on a glorious aluminium boat but have never sailed a steel one, so I have lots of questions about their performance as cruising boats?
> 
> Thanks for any and all advice you can give.


I can see this resulted in a very long subject thread. Did you ever find a vessel CaptainQuiet?

Here are two motorsailer designs, one an Alden one a Rhodes, that I believe would make excellent round-the-world vessels.

...sorry, had to post web-links as forum sever wouldn't let me post images (would not let me post links either so I may not be back for awhile)?
Link
LINK

And I would love to explore building them with the newer 'frameless' steel hull methods, and poly honeycomb superstructure. You will find a bit more discussion of this building method in these 2 forum discussions:

Link
Link

I've also played a little bit with a couple of alternate rigs for these two.

Brian Eiland
RunningTideYachts


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## PCP

outbound said:


> Paulo- think you missed the point of the question. Their are very intelligent and experienced sailors on this thread. I've enjoyed their input greatly. You view things from what the market offers. I was curious as to what this select group of fellows sailors would want. For instance when I surveyed the offerings I choose Outbound. I'm happy with my choice and think of available offerings came closest to my heart's desires. If a practical schooner or ketch was offered with similar features depending on price and build quality I may have built that. I realize I'm one small insignificant person in this market so view your post as besides the point whereas Brent's spoke directly too the point.


 Nobody said you were insignificant just that if you want to talk about WE, as meaning generic public, the success of the several brands that make that type of boat on the market is a better indicator, since they talk for dozens and sometimes hundreds of satisfied costumers.

Here you have a brand that have opted for a ketch configuration:










Probably bigger or more expensive than what you wanted but almost all if not all abandoned the Ketch configuration for boats smaller than 50ft, given today improvements in rigging easiness, smaller sails (due to lighter boats) and electric and hydraulic helps.

The Ketch configuration in most cases demands leaving the safety of the cockpit to take care of the sails while those on modern one mast configurations can be done entirely from the cockpit. For blue water cruising the most usual configuration is a cutter rig with a relatively small main and sometimes as much as three head-sails on furlers.

Regards

Paulo


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## outbound

Oh I don't know Paulo
Was on the new amel. big boat split rig everything done from cockpit.
Live in N.E. in my old harbor ( Plymouth) there were a few schooners down to thirty five feet.
Have also seen Pinky schooners that size and even one in steel. Seen yawls down to 20 feet and the original production PSC was a yawl with a tiller.
I think you've made my point again. Production builders build a boat. If enough are sold they build more like it. 
Sailors over time with different boats decide on features they would want if available. It's rare all those features are present in ANY production boat. They end up picking the one that comes closest or if they have the money give Bob a call.
Still think you are looking down at the surface of the water and I wanted to hear from folks looking up from the depths.


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## bobperry

You could be right Out. But still I went to the effort and expense to send it and I'd like to know if it arrived. "I got it" would be sufficient.


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## outbound

Bob- How about as a Xmas present to all the SNer's on the 25th you tell us know what you sent. Think for many our curiosity is peeked.


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## SloopJonB

Jeff, from what I can tell, other than the styling, those drawings indicate a boat much like your Farr.

That big Amel looks a lot like it could have come from Bob's pen.


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## bobperry

Don't make me have to come down there Jon!

Out:
OK.
I sent Brent a bar of J.T. Liggett's hand made, non detergent shampoo. It is the only shampoo I have used for the last 7 years. It is made in Vermont by a client of mine who is a retired ad agenecy art director. He has made soap as a hobby since he was a kid. Now his soap products, J.T. Liggetts, are sold all over the world. 

The key is that there is no detergent in this soap. This means that when you rinse your hair you can rinse it in less that a minute. This means that it does not strip your hair of its natural oils. This means that your hair will stay cleaner much longer, much longer.

For a live aboard this can mean a signifigant reduction in water needed to shower or shampoo. It smells good and one bar will last a long time. It is not cheap but it is a product that really works.

I figured Brent probably smells bad most of the time and because he spends so much time on the hook he could use a soap that helped him preserve his water. It really was not intended as a joke.

J.T. Liggetts has a web site. The thought of having to use another commercial shampoo terrifies me after using this soap for so long. You'd be doing yourself a big favor by trying it.


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## Jeff_H

SloopJonB said:


> Jeff, from what I can tell, other than the styling, those drawings indicate a boat much like your Farr.
> :


You are right, the boat that I drew (which I will call 'MV') has a lot in common with my Farr. After 12 years owning the Farr, I have tried to keep most of the things that I like about my Farr. But in comparing the two designs there are also significant differences. While they are roughly the same length on deck, the MV has 2 feet more waterline length, weights 3,500 lbs more, has less wetted surface, a finer entry, much more stability, 100 s.f. more sail area measured with its 100% foretriangle resulting in a slightly larger L/D, and it carries a larger assym chute. The Farr has its head forward and MV's is aft. MV has a nicer galley, and a more comfortable settee. MV has a large sail locker aft and carries nearly 3 times as much fuel and around the same amount of water. The MV has a place for one more battery, a hot water heater and a bigger holding tank, and the next size engine. Also unlike the Farr, MV has a lifting keel with a bulb, more draft when down, and an outboard rudder. MV would be cold-molded with a kevlar laminate sheathing.

In reality, I would probably like a boat 2-3 feet longer than either, somewhere around 40-41 feet, which had a slightly larger galley, a better nav station than on MV (Synergy actually has a better nav station than MV) and a dedicated shower.

But within my budget, and for my needs, 'Synergy' is about as good as I could find.

Jeff


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## outbound

Brian- went to your web page. Fascinating concept and speaks to why the new Chris White and the old staysail schooners were so effective. ?Have you had much success in propagating this concept? Would think it would be equally effective on a monohull.
Bob- will get some. thanks for the heads up.


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## PCP

SloopJonB said:


> Jeff, from what I can tell, other than the styling, those drawings indicate a boat much like your Farr.
> 
> ...


I don't think so. Have a look at the Farr 38 hull:



Jeff's hull



and Salona 38 hull:



Finnflyer 34



The Farr 38 was a very advanced design for his time but the hull is dated now. You can see that Jeff's hull is a modern one, from the same family as Salona, Finnflyer or Solaris type of hulls, even if slightly narrow than the Salona or Solaris, considering the difference in length. It has a bit more ballast and in what regards that case it is closer to the J122, as well as in beam. I like the hull and also the increased ballast ratio.

Regards

Paulo


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## Lou452

I know I am still new to sailnet and sailing That is why some of my thoughts my seem like they come from Mars. It is nice when I get someone to explain. I also love this Sailnet Community because It presents real sailors with up to date conversation and knowledge. I reed a few sailing mags and always have a book going but sailnet has multiple views at all times.
I like the idea of a single mast. K.I.S.S I think 32- 36 foot is about the biggest I could ever feel In control. If you get a rig much bigger would you start to need more high tech machinery. Winches that are electric. The Anchor on a boat bigger than this could not be man handled ? I see they single hand 60 foot of boat solo around the world These men and women very exceptional rare talented individuals ? Those boats are top of the line. 
I am still on the idea a boat should not sink. In some ways it took a lot for me to understand how a wood boat sinks. I thought that a wood boat just broke up but now I know they go to the bottom like they are made of steel. The HMS Bounty underlines this.
Has any boat used the cockpit to nest the dingy ? I am not a fan of a dingy on davits. A big inflatable rib or a hard dingy on top the deck is not sleek. The wind pulls on them. They look like 5 gallon water jugs tied to the life lines Safety at sea could come up if the come lose. If it somehow was nested over the cabin roof and looked like part of the boat. I think I did see one large cruiser with a dingy garage. It might have been a Hans ?
I would also like the boom to be able to bring heavy items on to the boat. Maybe a way to use the spinnaker pole with a weight as a counter balance. Could The spinnaker pole or the boom be a mast for the dingy ? 
Next thought I have seen some huge air filled fender/ bumpers so the whole side of a boat is keep away from the dock. I have also seen water ballast bags that look like these fenders. How big is the largest R.I.B ? Could these fender ballast bags be around your boat incorporated into the design to look like it belongs . We have life jackets that inflate. Sort of like a scuba BCD for a boat. This could make a boat that will not sink. You cold also tie a lot of 5 gal water jugs to life lines and get the same benefits . The current stuff is not much better looking than the jugs and old tires . Why should a boat with limited space need to consume space with stuff like dock fenders. Build better boats ?
Good day, Lou


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## beiland

outbound said:


> Brian- went to your web page. Fascinating concept and speaks to why the new Chris White and the old staysail schooners were so effective. ?Have you had much success in propagating this concept? Would think it would be equally effective on a monohull.


Are you addressing me, ....and my unusual rig? If so I have made quite of an attempt to promote the idea over the years with only a few similar rigs being built. When I get enough postings I'll be able to add some links and photos

I'm new to this forum and somehow did not get any notification that additional postings had been made to this subject thread??
(ah ha, I just found the 'notification' button)

Brian
RunningTideYachts


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## outbound

Brian- Wish you the best of luck. Seems quite innovative


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## smackdaddy

beiland said:


> Are you addressing me, ....


Welcome Brian. And here's what I think you meant to say...


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## outbound

Lou- I think you've asked the important and thoughtful questions and will try to give answer to the best of my limited ability.
unsinkable- if you talk with yards/insurance people most common reason place of sinking are at moorings and slips. Most common reasons are hull piercings ( through hulls, packing glands etc).If properly maintained usually avoidable. Failed anti siphon valves are also common cause and lastly lightening strikes. Even partial sinkings usually result in destruction of interior and electronics/mechanical systems so question of restoration/salvage is often questionable economically. Offshore cause of sinking often unknown unless souls aboard are saved. It seems common causes are vessel being overwhelmed ( pitchpoled or rolled) or suffering structural failure. So called "blue water" boats are usually much more expensive then coastal vessels the same size. Reason being primarily the labor involved in creating a vessel that will maintain structural integrity. Labor involved in securing all of both sides structural bulkheads and like practices are an example. That's why you see boats being constructed in both Chinas, Poland, the old Yugoslavia etc. In short places where skilled labor is cheaper. Earlier in this thread ETAP was mentioned. It was a Belgian company that made unsinkable sail boats using closed cell foam much like Boston Whaler. They went bankrupt. Long term cruisers find they need and want every inch they can find to squirrel away supplies and things. For instance the wife bought 3 porcelain Chinese gentlemen she found in a second hand shop in Annapolis. Wrap in bubble wrap and wedged in the space between the batteries and bulkhead they survived the trip home. Etaps because of the nature of construction can't have those "wasted spaces" where we snuggle stuff in to. In the past there was offered inflatable bags that attached to settees and bulkheads. They had the typical salt pills or halyards to allow C02 inflation. Once again troubles with concerns about expense, injury from inadvertent inflation and aesthetics cause them to never catch on. In short due to liveability, access to the inside of the hull, expense and need for interior volume. ETAP ( which made a great boat didn't sell. I looked at their 46 before building my current boat and thought highly of them but went with a well constructed vessel with forward watertight bulkhead.
Dinghies- I and many others simple use the spinnaker halyard to lift the inflatable on to the fore neck. Just need a hand to push it out so it doesn't hang up on the lifelines. No need to make it more complicated. The big reason Walker Bay inflatables are popular are they are offered with a transom that folds forward when deflated. The whole thing is flipped upside down while on the spin halyard. Then deflated and secured to grab rails of fore deck. Takes less than 10m and I can do it by myself in a pinch. Having dinghy on davits when coastal is a blessing. You sail faster and it takes just a few minute to deploy.
Fenders are made in a long rectangular shape that inflate/deflate easily. I forget the brand but you can google it. Never know when a fender may come in handy so use the Taylormade for now.


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## PCP

outbound said:


> ... That's why you see boats being constructed in both Chinas, Poland, the old Yugoslavia etc. In short places where skilled labor is cheaper. Earlier in this thread ETAP was mentioned. It was a Belgian company that made unsinkable sail boats using closed cell foam much like Boston Whaler. They went bankrupt. Long term cruisers find they need and want every inch they can find to squirrel away supplies and things. ...


I don't think that being unthinkable had to do with Etap bankruptcy. The space lost was not so much and that was a very interesting feature appreciated by sailors. They went bankrupt because their boats were considerable more expensive than the French and German ones, with very similar characteristics and the bonus of being unsinkable was not enough to justify that price difference. There are more unsinkable boats on the market, the Pogo for instance, among others (many cats).

But I agree with you that even if convenient it would not be a deal breaker for me but having waterproof bulkheads on the forward bow section and on the aft rudder section, seems very important to me. Rudder failure (or breakage on a collision) and the ingress of water by the rudder hole has been the cause of several lost boats.

Regards

Paulo


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## Jeff_H

Lou452 said:


> I know I am still new to sailnet and sailing That is why some of my thoughts my seem like they come from Mars. It is nice when I get someone to explain. I also love this Sailnet Community because It presents real sailors with up to date conversation and knowledge. I reed a few sailing mags and always have a book going but sailnet has multiple views at all times.
> I like the idea of a single mast. K.I.S.S I think 32- 36 foot is about the biggest I could ever feel In control. If you get a rig much bigger would you start to need more high tech machinery. Winches that are electric. The Anchor on a boat bigger than this could not be man handled ? I see they single hand 60 foot of boat solo around the world These men and women very exceptional rare talented individuals ? Those boats are top of the line.
> I am still on the idea a boat should not sink. In some ways it took a lot for me to understand how a wood boat sinks. I thought that a wood boat just broke up but now I know they go to the bottom like they are made of steel. The HMS Bounty underlines this.
> Has any boat used the cockpit to nest the dingy ? I am not a fan of a dingy on davits. A big inflatable rib or a hard dingy on top the deck is not sleek. The wind pulls on them. They look like 5 gallon water jugs tied to the life lines Safety at sea could come up if the come lose. If it somehow was nested over the cabin roof and looked like part of the boat. I think I did see one large cruiser with a dingy garage. It might have been a Hans ?
> I would also like the boom to be able to bring heavy items on to the boat. Maybe a way to use the spinnaker pole with a weight as a counter balance. Could The spinnaker pole or the boom be a mast for the dingy ?
> Next thought I have seen some huge air filled fender/ bumpers so the whole side of a boat is keep away from the dock. I have also seen water ballast bags that look like these fenders. How big is the largest R.I.B ? Could these fender ballast bags be around your boat incorporated into the design to look like it belongs . We have life jackets that inflate. Sort of like a scuba BCD for a boat. This could make a boat that will not sink. You cold also tie a lot of 5 gal water jugs to life lines and get the same benefits . The current stuff is not much better looking than the jugs and old tires . Why should a boat with limited space need to consume space with stuff like dock fenders. Build better boats ?
> Good day, Lou


Lou,

You are asking some interesting questions. I have been thinking of creating a thread which is intended to provide a place to discuss, "What about this idea?"'s I hope that you don't mind I would like to copy your post and post it as a start for that thread rather than add yet another topic to this thread.

Jeff


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## outbound

Jeff - That's a great idea. Seems to be a consensus that there are a host of interesting ideas from various folks. Be nice to have a thread where they are collected. Be even most pleasant if the major producers read that thread and it served as nidus for incorporation into new designs.


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## bobperry

Great idea, kind of "the boat bozo's idea gam".


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## Lou452

I can understand economics drive the market. Cost and the ability to sell the boat makes or breaks it. 
The skipper and the crew are the most decisive factor in safety and success. 
So far I have by the numbers followed the crowd and picked what others have considered good boats. 
I have to offer my thanks and gratitude to the folks that are posting. I am not in large crowd of sailors where I live. The sailors are just a few souls. It will be a bitter sweet day when my long term plans leave us separated by so much land.. The internet is making it possible to reach out and gain knowledge and benefits that would take years to accumulate by other means. 
Good day, Lou


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## PCP

Lou452 said:


> ...
> So far I have by the numbers followed the crowd and picked what others have considered good boats.
> ... Lou


Lou, there are certainly bad boats even if it is harder to find them among the more recent ones, but there is not certainly one good boat for all.

I mean as you can see there are many different types of boasts, even in what regards cruising, and on each type there is the perfect boat for a given cruiser, except that we are talking about different types and styles of cruising and therefore very different boats.

The important thing is to understand the differences between the several types of boats, first in theory and then for real, sailing different types of boats. It is also fundamental to know what type of cruising you are interesting in making for being able to chose the more appropriated type of boat.

Certainly this forum can give you a lot of information and help but with that information you have to try yourself different types of boats to see what is really the one you are interested in, for the type of cruising you want to do and your lifestyle.

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski

Lou,

I would agree with Paulo, There is really not a best boat for anyone, unless you have someone like BP design it, and custom build it! Even then! your design will be pigeon holed into how you intend to use it. Look back a page or two, and see what Outbound, Sloop, Jeff and myself want in boats. NONE of them are the same. We each have a how we will use a boat, so want it to work for that reason. I'm mostly a daysailor/racer, with an occasional weekend, and maybe one week a year on the boat. I do not need nor want, 100+ gals of fuel and water on the boat. Frankly a 12 hr plus 10-20% reserve is plenty of fuel for how I use the boat. Even the current one with a 6-7 hr literally 7 gal tank is very usable for how I use the boat. when I need to motor 8-10 hrs, I take a 5 gal jerry can and fill half way to the destination. 20 gals of water lasts me the whole season! A single size 24 house battery has never been drained sailing, or on the hook etc! 

So hence why builders have different styles types of boats etc. You need to figure out the how you may or will use the boat, get storage etc to meet those goals, and you then have a boat that is probably 90% perfect............

Marty


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## outbound

It's the flaws that make them perfectly yours


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## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> ..........
> Only one of my boats, who's builders ignored my plans, has ever been holed behind the keels, and that at far above hull speed on a solid rock, yet you claim, from Australia, without having ever seen any of my boats, to know of many more that I am not aware of ,and you claim I am being deceptive?
> You claim that logitudinals, arcs, under longitudinal compression, are not under compression when faced with inward pressure?
> Man what a crock.
> 
> Someone without the ability to comprehend such simple basics, is definitely not a reliable source of any info on the structural factors in a metal hull.


How many times has this been explained to you by how many people?
if you have a compression member it's either column or an arch, you presumed your shallow curve was an arch and have written so numerous times, trouble is you don't understand buckling. It's not an arch.

Your structural arguments are 'religious' arguments that have nothing to do with reality. You have a very ignorant and even deluded view of structures which is dangerous for a boat designer.

You still don't understand span either but you do understand spin 

All you baloney about holed boats..... The whole idea is that the whole grillage yields under severe impact with no hard spots. You just don't understand how strong that makes the boat, how much energy a metal boat can take in severe impact and remain integrally intact and floating.

Look at a pic of '******' again after being T boned by a bulbous bow. ****** is extensively transverse framed. See how the transverses kept the hull in shape and stopped a large global collapse. And no holes Brent, despite all that transverse framing.

Had ****** been a frameless BS design it's likely that the damage would have been catastrophic. No different to a light foam GRP in such a collision.


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## PCP

Ok Out, I will play your game:

Ten years ago I was still thinking that the right boat for me was one with about the same program that you see as the ideal for yourself, meaning a passagemaker for all kinds of weather, including cold climates and adapted to make a lot of sailing in the night and rain, during long passages.

Things had changed and I understood that if I wanted to keep my wife I would not be able to do that kind of sailing so the ideal boat had changed too, not to mention that I had more money then... but I still have the drawings that I never finished.

Anyway, after a very classical offshore boat (that I had already posted on this thread) I turned to a much faster and more polyvalent boat that had only in common with the last one to be an aluminium one. The drawings are 10 years and today the hull design would be different and maybe the overall design too but the principles would be about the same:

1- Aluminium very fast boat
2-A boat with two saloons, one smaller including a pilot house, where I and my wife could enjoy the scenery in cold days, another one bigger inside, down below adjacent to the galley also with a port view.
3- On the pilot house the settee would turn in a a good sea berth. Also there a good recliner seat with a big chart table with all instruments annexed and a joystick to be able to steer the boat from inside with a good all around view.
3- A big galley, and a good sea one. 
4- Two good cabins and a big head with separated shower
5- a big interior storage space next to the galley.
6- Garage for the dinghy, dedicated space for the liferaft, 4 cockpit lockers, one big one, another smaller and to vertical to Stowe the fenders.
7- At least 600L of water and 400L of fuel
8- Variable draft with a lifting keel
9- Winches at easy reach to the wheel man and rigging adapted to solo sailing.
10-Retractable bowsprit.

Dimensions:

Hull lenght - 13.99m
Beam - 4.31m
Draft-1.20m/2.80m
Ballast - 4200kg
Displacement- 11 000 kg
SA upwind with jib - 115m2
SA downwind - 254m2

Some drawings:


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## Lou452

Someday I might build a dingy out of fiberglass or aluminum. A blue water surf board, a 30knt dingy.  That is as far as I anticipate building a boat. I have looked at all the Glen L boats and they are nice but do not make me feel the crave. I have not found a production dingy that Is what I want. 
You see I need two boats all the time. one small one bigger. I have a member in my club that kind of laughed because he was thinking I just need one boat. He however is also boat-aholic :laugher Found out he has Three in his yard and one in a slip in FL.
I think my final boat will be between 32-36 feet I already own ten foot smaller and this is my comfort zone right now. It is also to me as large as Cave run Lake can handle 22-24 feet. Some folks have larger boats on Cave Run Lake. It just seems to much for that lake, The main pool is just a mile and a half across. I hope to visit some other lakes by trailering my Catalina -22. Next I may charter, rent bigger ? Then move to an area that I can sail The boat that grow into. 
Good day , Lou


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## blt2ski

Lou,

The Glen-l boats have some very good well written and pictured directions and plans. I may still have the plans to the 8-ball I built in about 6th/7th grade. Great little boat to sail!

Later I built the G-L 12' sailing sloop. Fun fast boat. Step dad built the 21-cb sail boat. ALso a fun boat for on lk washington. 

THey do take some time to do. Not sure what kind of dinghy style you want. In the salish sea there are a few that look pretty nice....
Bigger than 20', well that is another ball game!

Marty


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## Lou452

Wow you have talent to build that young ! Some of my glue together plastic models needed help. Extra parts leftovers failure to follow the step by step plans is not the way to go.
Glen L has some nice looking boats. It is more telling that I do not know what I want yet. They look like they support the builder. I might need to see and feel the boat. I do not have the vision to look at a blue print a make a call so right now they do not have (what I want ). I have never seen a steel dingy or an Aluminum I could do steel Aluminum wood or fiberglass. The metal is where I would do the best craftsmanship. It is just my humble opinion the most labor intensive to work in metal. 
I think a Laser is close to what I want in a dingy. I do not like the sail sock idea. I want to have a main Halyard and maybe even a reef. I like my FJ but it swamps and becomes scuttled in small 2 foot waves if I capsize and do not get back up fast, I want to surf in a dingy. I want to sit and not be on a trapeze. I like how a laser is low to the water If you capsize you are not up high like in a beach cat. I like that a Laser will still go in light air. My FJ will also. I think I might need to stop because I am so far off topic.
Good day. Lou


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## Faster

Lou452 said:


> I think I might need to stop because I am so far off topic.
> Good day. Lou


Off Topic??? In this thread??? How dare you, Lou!! :laugher:laugher


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## Brent Swain

Brent Swain said:


> MikeJohns said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many times has this been explained to you by how many people?
> if you have a compression member it's either column or an arch, you presumed your shallow curve was an arch and have written so numerous times, trouble is you don't understand buckling. It's not an arch.
> 
> Your structural arguments are 'religious' arguments that have nothing to do with reality. You have a very ignorant and even deluded view of structures which is dangerous for a boat designer.
> 
> You still don't understand span either but you do understand spin
> 
> All you baloney about holed boats..... The whole idea is that the whole grillage yields under severe impact with no hard spots. You just don't understand how strong that makes the boat, how much energy a metal boat can take in severe impact and remain integrally intact and floating.
> 
> Look at a pic of '******' again after being T boned by a bulbous bow. ****** is extensively transverse framed. See how the transverses kept the hull in shape and stopped a large global collapse. And no holes Brent, despite all that transverse framing.
> 
> The impact on ****** was a vertical crease, , parallel to any transverse frames. Whether it landed on a transverse frame or parallel to one, the transverse frame had nothing to do with supporting the plate there. It was the deck edge, a fully welded longitudinal bulkhead equivalent , and the bottom plate, which resisted the impact. Transverse frames there either were pushed in or, if it hit next to the frame , parallel to it , did nothing , except give the plate something to stretch against, maximizing the damage, and maximizing the cost and complexity of repairing it . A blunt bulbous bow would have done absolutely no more damage to a frameless hull, and possibly would have done less damage. Like ******, the decks and bottom plate would have been buckled , no more than ******, but the topsides plate would have sprung back to some extent, and wouldn't have to be replaced, just straightened .
> 
> 
> 
> Apologies for the misplacement of the text. Didn't feel like retyping it.
> I heard a neurologist describing "either or" thinking as a mental deficiency . I also saw it described as a consequence of sports injuries, in a science magazine. In balancing "either or ", they have a toggle switch instead of a rheostat equivalent between the two, and are thus incapable of comprehending the concept of there being varying shades of gray, on any issue.
> No Mike, it doesn't go instantly, from an arc to a non arc. Any curve adds a huge amount of stiffness, increasing gradually as the curve increases. It doesn't remain as floppy as a flat plate, right up to a sudden point , until a certain degree of curve is reached, then go instantly from the floppiness of a flat plate to the rigidity of an arc, and stay the same strength from that point on .
> No Mike , it doesn't work that way.
> No Mike, a sharp impact on one point is not resisted by the whole grillage. A sharp point impact at one point is not resisted by frames several feet away. Making a higher percentage of your total weight in frames, forcing you to go for thinner plate, reduces the plates resistance to a sharp point impact, and increases the likelihood of being holed, especially if the impact is right next to a rigid frame.
> The blunt impact on ****** is one situation, but not all, and nothing at all like a sharp impact on one point, a completely different ball of wax.
> 
> If span is not the distance between supports, then how would you define span?
> 
> On BD.net . Mike (and Troy, and the rest of the hecklers sqaud) supported the idea that those many reknown designers Bob mentioned, including Bob Perry himself , who don't have paper qualifications, should be barred from designing boats, enforced by an army of government bureaucrats, with reams of rules and regulations, drafted by the similarly myopic. .
> To get some qualifications on paper doesn't require the ability to think, in fact that may disqualify some. It only requires the ability to memorize the answers to questions on the test. It punishes and denounces those who ask questions, based on thinking outside the box. Leaving yacht design to such people would threaten to bring progress to a grinding halt, and give guys like Mike and Kasten a monopoly, which is why they advocate such nonsense. (an admission they cant survive a level playing field, or a meritocracy)
> Would yacht design be better off if the designers Bob mentioned were replaced by guys like Mike and Kasten, who have probably never come up with a single, useful innovation in their lives, while heckling anyone who does?
> I think not!
> 
> When a doctor in the 1840s suggested that maybe doctors should wash their hands after handling corpses, before aiding delivery of babies, he was attacked, sarcastically ridiculed, heckled and condemned for the rest of his life . At that time babies born in hospitals had over 20 times the death rate of those born out in the country side. Had Mike and Smack been living in that time , they would have been among the hecklers .
> Early scientists were condemned and threatened with death when they suggested that the earth was not the centre of the universe. Columbus was sarcastically heckled and ridiculed when he suggested the earth was round and not flat. Mike and Smack would have been among the sarcastic hecklers, had they been alive in that time.
> The list goes on ( Guttenburg we hate your type, Ben Franklin go fly a kite, etc.)
> Had humanity listened to such luddite morons, we would still be in the stone age. All human progress in any field required ignoring such throwbacks. Thank god many did!
Click to expand...


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Don't make me have to come down there Jon!
> 
> Out:
> OK.
> I sent Brent a bar of J.T. Liggett's hand made, non detergent shampoo. It is the only shampoo I have used for the last 7 years. It is made in Vermont by a client of mine who is a retired ad agenecy art director. He has made soap as a hobby since he was a kid. Now his soap products, J.T. Liggetts, are sold all over the world.
> 
> The key is that there is no detergent in this soap. This means that when you rinse your hair you can rinse it in less that a minute. This means that it does not strip your hair of its natural oils. This means that your hair will stay cleaner much longer, much longer.
> 
> For a live aboard this can mean a signifigant reduction in water needed to shower or shampoo. It smells good and one bar will last a long time. It is not cheap but it is a product that really works.
> 
> I figured Brent probably smells bad most of the time and because he spends so much time on the hook he could use a soap that helped him preserve his water. It really was not intended as a joke.
> 
> J.T. Liggetts has a web site. The thought of having to use another commercial shampoo terrifies me after using this soap for so long. You'd be doing yourself a big favor by trying it.


They have recently been finding some major health problems with anti bacterial soaps with no net benefit in reducing bacteria.
Thanks Bob.
I told a lady here on Quadra, who makes soaps in may shapes, that if she made them in the shape of some politicians, people would buy more, just to be able to rub such faces in unmentionable places.


----------



## Brent Swain

PCP said:


> I don't think so. Have a look at the Farr 38 hull:
> 
> 
> 
> Jeff's hull
> 
> 
> 
> and Salona 38 hull:
> 
> 
> 
> Finnflyer 34
> 
> 
> 
> The Farr 38 was a very advanced design for his time but the hull is dated now. You can see that Jeff's hull is a modern one, from the same family as Salona, Finnflyer or Solaris type of hulls, even if slightly narrow than the Salona or Solaris, considering the difference in length. It has a bit more ballast and in what regards that case it is closer to the J122, as well as in beam. I like the hull and also the increased ballast ratio.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Nice deck layout. A head facing fore and aft is much easier to use when well heeled. Athwartships , you are either on your back or sliding forward off it.


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> I like the question that was posed by Outbound. It gets to the heart of something that often crosses my mind when I see or worse yet write, the word 'ideal' in the context of boats. Its seems like the term 'ideal' should almost always be accompanied by the questions, 'for whom?' and 'for what use?'. Outbound's query seems to go to the heart of that, and the responses have shown a very bright light on the how the 'for whom?' impacts the 'ideal' in ways that really surprised me after years of reading posts by some of the respondents.
> 
> Anyone who has read more than a handful of my my posts would probably admit that I am somewhat predictable on these questions, but here are my responses.
> Day sailor: Yes
> Coastal: Yes
> Blue water: Probably
> High latitude: Not a chance in hell
> 
> Still, would be a interesting discussion.
> What material: Cold molded wood/ composite or higher tech FRP
> What hull shape: See drawings
> what appendages: See drawings
> what size: 16000 lbs
> what sail plan: Fractional sloop
> what features:
> In my opinion a coastal cruiser which is optimized to permit offshore passage making and so should offer the following traits:
> 
> Should be seakindly which means an easy motion. Seakindliness coming from long waterline relative to overall length, fine entry, minimal weight in the ends of the boat, moderate beam, Vee'd hull sections forward and elliptical hull sections (not too round and not too hard a bilge) from amidships aft, a low vertical center of gravity, a tall enough but light enough rig to slow roll without increasing roll angle dramatically.
> 
> Ideally should be robust and simple. Weight should not be expended on fancy interiors or excess weight in areas that are solely for show. The hull and deck should have small panel areas with reasonably close framing and bulkheads. Details should be simple and solid.
> 
> Should have an easily driven hull so that it can get by with smaller sails and a smaller sail inventory making it easier to handle across the wide range of wind and sea conditions that will be encountered. Sail plans and under water foils should be robust and efficient. I don't think that a skeg hung, or keel hung rudder is necessary, and in many ways I think that an outboard rudder makes more sense in terms being able to check and maintain it, and use a simplified self-steering.
> 
> I personally would want a fractional rigged sloop rig for its ease in adapting to changeable conditions. I would want a permanently affixed track for the storm trysail. I am of two minds on a removable stay for a storm sail, vs. one that goes up the foil with safety ties incorporated.
> 
> Sailing systems need to be robust, easily operated, suitable to short-handing and easy to maintain offshore. Here there needs to be a balance between having the tools to do the job efficiently vs. being overly complex and maintenance prone.
> 
> Electronics and the electrical system also need to be simple, and no more than necessary to get by. Here again there need to balance between having enough to do the job efficiently vs. being overly complex and maintenance prone. In my opinion, the boat needs to be operable without an electrical system should the worst happen.
> 
> The boat needs to be adequately burdensome to carry all of the consumables and spares that are required for distance voyaging. There needs to be solid, secure and low in the boat food storage lockers. Water tankage needs to be adequately large, with multiple and maintainable tanks. Other types of tankage and storage are less critical.
> 
> Ideally there should be complete access to the skind of hull everywhere in the boat.
> 
> Deck houses should be low and there should be solid foot and hand holds along the deck. There needs to be good ventilation, which can be secured from leakage when offshore; large portlights and hatches are a no-no.
> 
> There needs to be a way to secure ground tackle off the deck and to secure hawse pipes when offshore. There needs to be really great ground tackle and ground tackle handling gear.
> 
> There should be narrow passage ways in the cabin, with good foot holds and hand holds, so you are not thrown about. Galleys and heads should be small so you can brace yourself when in them. Refrigeration is less important than good dry storage. I want a dedicated shower.
> 
> I would want water tight compartments in the bow and stern, with the propshaft and rudder post within the aft compartment.
> 
> I would want about 15,000 to 17,000 Lbs of displacement.
> 
> A protected on deck 'watch station' would be important. I would not want a pilot house. A liferaft compartment should be an integral part of the design, as should a solid solution to store a dinghy.
> 
> I drafted the images below during the late Wolfenzee's ideal boat discussion as 'My version' if I had Wolf's displacement to work with. In reality, my ideal boat would be a foot or two longer and there would be a dedicated shower/ wet locker aft of the head. But this gives the general idea.


 A fractional rig makes no sense for a cruiser. Overly asymmetrical looks like poor directional stability. A couple of dagger boards aft, at an outward angle may help.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> "after 29 years of mostly full time cruising in her, there is very little I would do differently."
> 
> Ahhh, the active, creative mind at work.
> 
> More like in irons.
> 
> Brent: did you ever get your package?


Yes, I'm told it is there. Sailing down that way in a couple of days.


----------



## Brent Swain

chall03 said:


> It was a very cold, cold. I had been warned about the Mosquitos as well but did alright in that regard.


I once built a 36 in Winnipeg. Sept was not bad there.
She cruises lake Winnipeg. Hauled out for winter. Far enough offshore may solve the mosquitoes problem; for a while.


----------



## Brent Swain

I just supervised another 36 being pulled together. Great to watch youngsters doing all the climbing and lifting, and not getting my hands dirty. All three have a natural knack for steel working, and all three will be qualified to build my designs, etc, so I can sluff all my work off on them, and go cruising on my pension instead.


----------



## Lou452

Why are we calling the late Wolfenzee did he pass on ? Did he just stop posting.
Good Day, Lou


----------



## bobperry

Lou:
Wolf died suddenly about 6 mos ago.

Brent:
No problem. It's a very effective product.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> There is no way I would trust an artist to duplicate what I have drawn. I can draw 3D sketches of my boats all day long. I need 3D work that can be used for true evaluatiuon of the details in the design. I want a model that will reflect a ,5" change in cabin top camber or a 1" change in cabin top crown profile. I want accuracy so I can fine tune. With the 3D model completed we turn it back into a 2D drawings that can be overlaid over the starting drawings to make sure we have not strayed from the initial design targets. I don't want a pretty cabin trunk to find out I have lost 2" of headroom. When the fine tuning is done the 3D model is used for CNC tooling and that way I can be assurred that the tooling built is exactlly conforming to what I have drawn. This is all way beyond the capability of even the best artists. It's a nice idea but you can't drop a painting off at the CNC shop and say "Call when when the tooling is done."
> 
> Of course a beautiful painting can look very nice. But our 3D work isn't too shabby. If an owner wants some art I'll get Scott Chambers to carve him a half model.


My first boat had a toe rail which looked exactly like that one. What a huge pain in the ass, and waste of time. Never did that again.


----------



## Jeff_H

Lou452 said:


> Why are we calling the late Wolfenzee did he pass on ? Did he just stop posting.
> Good Day, Lou


Wolf was an interesting character. He lived on an old wooden boat that he cherished madly and was fixing up with the hopes of sailing her from Port Townsend to Califonia and finding work. He had a number of medical issues and he was found DOA due to one of them at his pretty young age. http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/102419-r-i-p-wolfenzee-dammit.html

He was at the center of a long dialogue on traditional boat design that led to an expercise where that started with the design and displacement of his boat. With Bob Perry's guidance and sage advice, and my fingers doing the drafting, the exercise showed how small tweaks could be done to improve the sailing ability of his boat without changing the hull much but modernizing the rig, rudder, and keel.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailb...38-bob-perrys-take-wolfenzees-dream-boat.html

Then the same displacement was used to create a similar sized but more modern cruiser.

Lastly, we took the same displacement and drew up a boat that would be reasonably modern and would be a boat that I personally would like to own.

May David (Wolfenzee) rest in peace, or at least sail through a heavenly place where old luggers are faster than anything else they encounter,

Jeff


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Classic:
> I don't have an easy answer for that.
> My experience has been that those who need initials after their name to say what they can do cannot prove it any other way. I don't need to see initials afer a name. I need to see design work. I have been surrounded by this my entire professional carreer.
> 
> Does Bruce Farr put any initials after his name? Does Ron Holland?. Does Doug Peterson? Does Chuck Paine? Does Yves -Martie Tanton? Does Bruce King? Does Peter Melvin? Does Juan K? Does Mark Miills? Give me a phouquing break.


What a contrast with this discussion on BD.net On that site, Mike Johns ,Troy and the rest of the heckler pack, supported the claim that no one without letters after his name should be allowed to design boats, law enforced by an army of government bureaucrats armed with piles of law books. That would exclude most of the best designers of our time, and far back in history.
I was told that if I didn't put the qualifiers at the end of my posts, I wouldn't be allowed to post here, the same way Bob got the grumpy old man title. It was not my idea. Someone else came up with it.


----------



## Lou452

Just saw the post about Wolf . He was nice to me, welcomed me to sailnet spent a lot of time on the full keel vs fin keel , A true sailor.
Peaceful wishes, Lou


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> What a contrast with this discussion on BD.net On that site, Mike Johns ,Troy and the rest of the heckler pack, supported the claim that no one without letters after his name should be allowed to design boats, law enforced by an army of government bureaucrats armed with piles of law books. That would exclude most of the best designers of our time, and far back in history.
> I was told that if I didn't put the qualifiers at the end of my posts, I wouldn't be allowed to post here, the same way Bob got the grumpy old man title. It was not my idea. Someone else came up with it.


What a joke. Olin Stephens would not be allowed to design boats. 

Can anyone name a SINGLE top yacht designer who has or had a degree in NA or engineering?


----------



## bobperry

Nelson of Nelson/Marek has a degree.
Gary Mull had a degree.
Alan Andrews has a degree, I think.

Bob Perry G.O.M.

Brent:
Got the same memo. As a person in the business I was told I had to identify myself as such.
Apparently G.O.M just wasn't enough.

"My first boat had a toe rail which looked exactly like that one. What a huge pain in the ass, and waste of time. Never did that again. "'
Brent, you still don't get it. Read slowly this time:
This is not a boat for you.
This is a boat for my client.
My client has lots of money he does not do his own maintenence. His current Hinckley is immaculate.
My client could care a less what you like. He lives in a very different world than the one you live in.
My client likes beautiful yachts.
You do not do beautiful yachts. You build aesthetically challenged steel boats for people who don't care about beautiful yachts.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> When a doctor in the 1840s suggested that maybe doctors should wash their hands after handling corpses, before aiding delivery of babies, he was attacked, sarcastically ridiculed, heckled and condemned for the rest of his life . At that time babies born in hospitals had over 20 times the death rate of those born out in the country side. Had Mike and Smack been living in that time , they would have been among the hecklers .
> Early scientists were condemned and threatened with death when they suggested that the earth was not the centre of the universe. Columbus was sarcastically heckled and ridiculed when he suggested the earth was round and not flat. Mike and Smack would have been among the sarcastic hecklers, had they been alive in that time.
> The list goes on ( Guttenburg we hate your type, Ben Franklin go fly a kite, etc.)
> Had humanity listened to such luddite morons, we would still be in the stone age. All human progress in any field required ignoring such throwbacks. Thank god many did!


Brent, I would never heckle guys like Ignaz Semmelweis, Eratosthenes (not Columbus - you're confusing him with Magellan - but even that's not correct in your example), Gutenberg (not Guttenburg), Franklin, or even Dr. Roger Bacon. Those guys were all enlightened geniuses.

I only heckle luddite morons who continually claim to be enlightened geniuses.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Nelson of Nelson/Marek has a degree.
> Gary Mull had a degree.
> Alan Andrews has a degree, I think.
> 
> Bob Perry G.O.M.
> 
> Brent:
> Got the same memo. As a person in the business I was told I had to identify myself as such.
> Apparently G.O.M just wasn't enough.
> 
> "My first boat had a toe rail which looked exactly like that one. What a huge pain in the ass, and waste of time. Never did that again. "'
> Brent, you still don't get it. Read slowly this time:
> This is not a boat for you.
> This is a boat for my client.
> My client has lots of money he does not do his own maintenence. His current Hinckley is immaculate.
> My client could care a less what you like. He lives in a very different world than the one you live in.
> My client likes beautiful yachts.
> You do not do beautiful yachts. You build aesthetically challenged steel boats for people who don't care about beautiful yachts.


Bob, Brent himself explained why he can't comprehend anything but his own, sad world.



Brent Swain said:


> *I heard a neurologist describing* "either or" thinking as a mental deficiency . I also saw it described as a consequence of sports injuries, in a science magazine. In balancing "either or ", they have a toggle switch instead of a rheostat equivalent between the two, and are thus incapable of comprehending the concept of there being varying shades of gray, on any issue.


This is obviously him telling us about the diagnosis he received from his neurologist. We really need to take it easier on him - be more compassionate. It has to be extremely difficult going through life with a toggle switch "mental deficiency".

Hang in there Brent. We're with you brother.

BTW - which NHL team were you on?


----------



## jak3b

smackdaddy said:


> Bob, Brent himself explained why he can't comprehend anything but his own, sad world.
> 
> This is obviously him telling us about the diagnosis he received from his neurologist. We really need to take it easier on him. It has to be extremely difficult going through life with a toggle switch "mental deficiency".
> 
> Hang in there Brent. We're with you brother.
> 
> BTW - which NHL team were you on?


I found my toggle switch.It does not have an 'off' setting, just 'on' and 'more on'.


----------



## smackdaddy

jak3b said:


> I found my toggle switch.It does not have an 'off' setting, just 'on' and 'more on'.


Heh-heh.

"Everybody knows, you never go full more on."


----------



## bobperry

Oh, is that what you guys call it, your "toggle switch"?

Cute.
Honey,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## Capt Len

If this thread is any indication it's easier to just push your buttons.


----------



## outbound

Damn- I'm a board certified boston trained neurologist and I just found out from Brent I wasted the last 35 years of my life. Didnt know it was so simple. Gee just a bunch of switches. Who would have guessed it?


----------



## Faster

outbound said:


> Damn- I'm a board certified boston trained neurologist and I just found out from Brent I wasted the last 35 years of my life. Didnt know it was so simple. *Gee just a bunch of switches.* Who would have guessed it?


Sounds like just one binary switch...


----------



## outbound

Good thing my wife knows my on/off switch but too bad she also knows just how to push my buttons.

Getting back to the O.P. Down at the yard there's a ~60' steel bulbous bow trawler. We've had a lot of wind recently and given the size of the thing and the windage she went bump into something hard. ( don't know the details). The cut water and port side of the bow were struck when she was leaving to go south. There were three significant indents. What surprised me was when talking with yard hands was:
Dented areas could not be hammered out or forced out with hydraulics. Any indent stretches the metal so original shape cannot be restored. Just like with a car skin.
Dented area should be presumed weak and should ideally be cut out.
even if not struck on frames- frames and symmetry of the hull need to be examined closely. Repair may need to involve area much larger than area of apparent damage.
Area to be refinished will also encompass area much larger than apparent damage.
Mounts and welds quite some distance from point of impact also need to be examined and may have failed.

It's true the hull skin remained intact but the repair bill looks like it will be quite significant. Surprising so given the external damage did not seem so bad to my un educated eye. 

This boat was fully framed. I can see how after repair she'll be "as good as new". I can't see in a similar circumstance how one could restore a frameless hull to it's original conformation if the dented portion of the hull was in a portion that was bent as part of the origami method?

Brent has made much of the strength and ease of building in steel. I have some limited knowledge of repairs in solid glass, cored glass/synethics, and cold molded wood. I thought metal repair was much, much easier.I thought that was one of the major advantages of metal boats. It was an eye opener to hear of the potential complexities of metal repair. Particularly if one wants to restore to original beauty and hull conformation. I think I gained understanding why with commercial boats it's not uncommon for dents to just be recoated and left alone.


----------



## Faster

outbound said:


> ........ I think I gained understanding why with commercial boats it's not uncommon for dents to just be recoated and left alone.


Look at any harbour tug/workboat/log salver.. they get pretty beatup, but it all gets painted over (every once in a while..) I guess the key to the 'steel' side is that the skin is rarely penetrated or fractured despite amount of deformation or stress - though I'm sure there are limits there too.


----------



## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> No Mike, it doesn't go instantly, from an arc to a non arc. Any curve adds a huge amount of stiffness, increasing gradually as the curve increases. It doesn't remain as floppy as a flat plate, right up to a sudden point , until a certain degree of curve is reached, then go instantly from the floppiness of a flat plate to the rigidity of an arc, and stay the same strength from that point on .
> No Mike , it doesn't work that way.
> No Mike, a sharp impact on one point is not resisted by the whole grillage. A sharp point impact at one point is not resisted by frames several feet away.


This is all obfuscation as usual. Learn some basic beam theory for starters. Materials resist loads in compression tension or shear. If you want to rely on compression you need a column or an arch, and then the failure mode is not the material strength but the resistance to buckling. Metals are as strong in compression as in tension but if the strain increases at a rate faster than the stress your structure fails. That collapse is from a completely different scenario to those which you aware of. Of real concern is that no matter how many people try to educate you, you choose to ignore basic engineering knowledge.

As for holes and punch shear, grillage will yield along with plate without damage providing the shear strength of the collision area exceeds the structural yield strength of the structure. That's very basic naval architecture and a design requirement for some vessels.

You harp on about holes but you have never given examples except a ship and one of your design that sheared it's plate rotating it's keels into the hull.



Brent Swain said:


> If span is not the distance between supports, then how would you define span?


Where are going with this ? I said the span of the small section unsupported longitudinals is too great for them to be effective structurally(other than as local plate stiffeners). What don't you get about that statement ?

You believe(d) and tell others that they have magical properties unknown to engineering and that they are arches, but I showed with a detailed analysis that if you make a structure that wants to straighten out then it will deform in buckling more easily. What can't you grasp about this? I posted a lot of diagrams for you before and you still fail to grasp it! Although I suspect you do by now but you are too compromised by your past marketing hype and publications.

Do you get it that your boat designs are weaker not stronger boats? The small boats are apparently strong enough, they dent a bit too easily in some areas, but importantly thay will not scale to 60 feet without being abysmally weak unless they have sufficient transverse framing added. That's my message, all this bluster and BS from you is simply trying to mask the simple fact and that you don't know what you are talking about.



Brent Swain said:


> On BD.net . Mike (and Troy, and the rest of the hecklers sqaud) supported the idea that those many reknown designers Bob mentioned, including Bob Perry himself , who don't have paper qualifications, should be barred from designing boats,


For a start lets just make it clear that you just made that up about Bob Perry. Why invent so many outrageous lies? Then when you are shown to be lying you have no remorse or sense of guilt, that's pretty brazen.

To address the issue of qualification: It's very clear to everyone in the industry that yacht designers don't need professional qualifications because they are covered very effectively by classification society rule and design standards which removes all their personal liability. You only need pro qualifications for areas where the class society needs specific design outside of class rules signed off by a suitably indemnified person. That's usually not required for yacht designers.

Yacht designers are better off working in a design office and getting their experience from another yacht designer, and only working with engineers where they want specific engineering design. No one ever said otherwise did they Brent !



Brent Swain said:


> To get some qualifications on paper doesn't require the ability to think,..........


Brent, there are simple engineering concepts that reading your posts I honestly doubt you could even grasp. I can set you a very simple challenge to illustrate this and challenge your myopic view certainly of physics and engineering graduate level education.


----------



## bobperry

It's good to see that everyone is really getting into the Christmas spirit.

Merry Christmas Mike.


----------



## outbound

Love Mikes posts.Interestingly it reminds of a statement I heard ten years apart. Once from an professor at Colombia school of engineering and again from a professor of neurology at Harvard.

To be truly wise it is more important to know what you don't know then the details of what you know. You can always research the later but will always fail in your endeavors if you don't accept the former.

Brent must have missed that class.

Merry Xmas to all.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Good thing my wife knows my on/off switch but too bad she also knows just how to push my buttons.
> 
> Getting back to the O.P. Down at the yard there's a ~60' steel bulbous bow trawler. We've had a lot of wind recently and given the size of the thing and the windage she went bump into something hard. ( don't know the details). The cut water and port side of the bow were struck when she was leaving to go south. There were three significant indents. What surprised me was when talking with yard hands was:
> Dented areas could not be hammered out or forced out with hydraulics. Any indent stretches the metal so original shape cannot be restored. Just like with a car skin.
> Dented area should be presumed weak and should ideally be cut out.
> even if not struck on frames- frames and symmetry of the hull need to be examined closely. Repair may need to involve area much larger than area of apparent damage.
> Area to be refinished will also encompass area much larger than apparent damage.
> Mounts and welds quite some distance from point of impact also need to be examined and may have failed.
> 
> It's true the hull skin remained intact but the repair bill looks like it will be quite significant. Surprising so given the external damage did not seem so bad to my un educated eye.
> 
> This boat was fully framed. I can see how after repair she'll be "as good as new". I can't see in a similar circumstance how one could restore a frameless hull to it's original conformation if the dented portion of the hull was in a portion that was bent as part of the origami method?
> 
> Brent has made much of the strength and ease of building in steel. I have some limited knowledge of repairs in solid glass, cored glass/synethics, and cold molded wood. I thought metal repair was much, much easier.I thought that was one of the major advantages of metal boats. It was an eye opener to hear of the potential complexities of metal repair. Particularly if one wants to restore to original beauty and hull conformation. I think I gained understanding why with commercial boats it's not uncommon for dents to just be recoated and left alone.


Sounds like your yard hands really know how to talk their way into a lot of extra work and wages. Kinda like the sand blaster who will blast to white metal perfectly good paint, with nothing wrong with it, as soon as your back is turned. He is paid by the hour, the more hours the more pay.
My reference to toggle switch vs rheostat, was an interview with a neurologist on AM radio KGO San Francisco. He was talking about religious and political fanatics having the disorder. It was a reference to Mike's suggestion that a curve adds nothing to strength, until it reaches a certain point then and only then does it become suddenly stronger. The added strength starts as soon as the metal starts to curve, increasing gradually the more curve you put in. He has stated that Lloyds makes no allowance for this, and ABYC only 15%. The difference between a square pressure bottle and a round one is a whole lot more than 15%, and undeniably more than the Zero Lloyds gives. His posts contain many "either or, black or white " toggle switch type assertions.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Brent, I would never heckle guys like Ignaz Semmelweis, Eratosthenes (not Columbus - you're confusing him with Magellan - but even that's not correct in your example), Gutenberg (not Guttenburg), Franklin, or even Dr. Roger Bacon. Those guys were all enlightened geniuses.
> 
> I only heckle luddite morons who continually claim to be enlightened geniuses.


Had you been alive in their time, you would have heckled them mercilessly, and declared them all luddite morons. You are definitely of the groupthink , whatever is in style to think at the moment, type of advocate. Only the passage of time, and history since then, gives you the benefit of hindsight, foresight not being anywhere in your makeup.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Had you been alive in their time, you would have heckled them mercilessly, and declared them all luddite morons. You are definitely of the groupthink , whatever is in style to think at the moment, type of advocate. Only the passage of time, and history since then, gives you the benefit of hindsight, foresight not being anywhere in your makeup.


I don't wear makeup.

As I said, I love innovation and new technologies - and admire those who enable them. Luddites, on the other hand, are those who fight against these things. You are absolutely one of these. And you absolutely are not anywhere near those geniuses you list. They were right -as time has proven. You are mostly wrong - also as time has proven. It's really that simple.

But keep dreaming dude...if it helps.

(Oh - and Merry Christmas you old Grinch you.)


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> I don't wear makeup.
> 
> As I said, I love innovation and new technologies - and admire those who enable them. Luddites, on the other hand, are those who fight against these things. You are absolutely one of these. And you absolutely are not anywhere near those geniuses you list. They were right -as time has proven. You are mostly wrong - also as time has proven. It's really that simple.
> 
> But keep dreaming dude...if it helps.


Origami metal boatbuilding is anew technology, which you vehemently oppose, while studiously avoid trying to comprehend. You have vehemently opposed any innovations I have suggested without ever coming up with a single one of your own.
Makes you a luddite, by your own definition.

I typed up a long reply to Mike Johns questions, which someone either signed me off the site, or deleted before I could post it.

Thanks a lot!
I will repost it in a few days ,one paragraph at a time , with lots of use of the edit button, so I cant lose to much at once.
Meanwhile, a nice Northwesterly is forecast to give me a great sail tomorrow.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Origami metal boatbuilding is anew technology, which you vehemently oppose, while studiously avoid trying to comprehend.


Actually, origami boat building has been around since at least the 17th century.










The metal is just a minor distinction.

And I don't oppose it at all. It's just not that great - especially when there are far, far better methods, materials, and designers these days.


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## outbound

Brent although I'm not a Trawler kind of guy I can appreciate the beauty of this particular vessel. I had hoped you would address the question asked not clumsily try to make a blind attack. The yard folks know it wasn't my boat. They also know I'm not writing the checks. They finally know the owner wants his/ hers boat returned to its pre damaged state. I would appreciate input on how you would do this with one of your designs. Instead of throwing stones, if you have the stones please answer.


----------



## outbound

Brent in the past I wanted to be an ee not civil or mech e. But I seem to recall complex curved materials resist deformation to a greater extent than simple curves. I also seem to recall even with simple curved trusses curvature does not produce a linear response as regards deformation. In simple terms a little curve gives a little improvement but a little more gives much,much more. Perhaps mike would know if this is correct and the equation. I also recall that thickening the skin is not nearly as effective as even modest framing.


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## Jaramaz

outbound said:


> Brent in the past I wanted to be an ee not civil or mech e. But I seem to recall complex curved materials resist deformation to a greater extent than simple curves. I also seem to recall even with simple curved trusses curvature does not produce a linear response as regards deformation. In simple terms a little curve gives a little improvement but a little more gives much,much more. Perhaps mike would know if this is correct and the equation. I also recall that thickening the skin is not nearly as effective as even modest framing.


Correct. This is basic engineering, solid mechanics. Generally, shape is much more important and effective than material properties. Shape usually goes as ~r**2 (as in Steiners theorem) or ~r**4 whereas typical material as thickness of course is linear in r (r being a typical distance).

To put it politely, not everybody has understood this ...

/J


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## bobperry

Let’s see:
Most of us here enjoy exploring the edges of yachting from canoes to ocean racing gran prix boats and everything in between. Why? Because we just like boats. We are open to new ideas and we respect the ideas of old. We do our best to investigate all new structural options. We pick and choose what we like and don’t like and we try to be broad minded. We exercise both subjective and objective criteria in making our preferences known. I can’t possibly see how the term “luddite” would apply here. Someone embracing everything from Viking longboats to my Baba 30 to the latest Euro rocket from Paulo would hardly fit the definition of “luddite”.

On the other hand, there are some who cling to a simplistic creative process in a material that is anything but user friendly and consistently produces boats, not yachts, that give no value at all to aesthetics. But still these boats are held up as the “ultimate and only answer” and if you do not agree then you area fool. The same designs are produced over and over as if they had achieved ultimate perfection already and there was no value to change or evolution.. We have seen this philosophy voiced here ad nauseum by one poster. “You do it my way or you are stupid” pretty much sums it up accurately. Given the consistency with this approach I think we have found our textbook definition of “luddite” . But I won’t use that term. I’ll try not to be a name caller. It’s really a low point in the debate when all you have left is name calling and personal attacks.
I’ll make it my New Year’s resolution not to be a name caller.


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## SloopJonB

Come on Bob - don't be a pussie.


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## bobperry

Don't worry Jon:
I'll be all sorts of vile things but I'll work hard not to be a name caller.
I do have a reputation to uphold.


----------



## Jeff_H

Brent Swain said:


> A fractional rig makes no sense for a cruiser.


Brent, From earlier posts I understand that you are not a fan of fractional rigs for cruisers, but I suggest that you are mistaken when you flatly say that a fractionally rigged sloops makes no sense for a cruiser. At least for many cruisers, especially those interested in performance and ease of handling, a modern fractional rig does make sense. These days, most new cruising designs employ a fractional rig for a range of reasons.

Generally, fractionally rigged sloops are generally closer winded and easier to handle because their smaller jibs and larger mainsail sailplan are easier to power up and down. Without a jibstay to drag the Genoa across, sloops are generally easier to tack. With less hardware fractionally rigged sloops sloops are less expensive to build.

Their smaller jibs are easier to tack and in a building breeze, they are easier to depower and then they reef down to a snug masthead rig. Because virtually all boats develop some weather helm with heel angle, reefing the mainsail, while leaving the jib, makes sense in terms of balancing the helm. But also because the jib represents a smaller portion of the overall sail area, one jib can often function across an extremely wide range of windspeeds. Fractional rigs generally place a lower stress on their hulls and often get by with lighter rigging and hardware for an equal structural safety margin.

One of the major advantages of a fractional rig is the ability, especially when combined with a flexible mast, to use the backstay to control mast bend and sail shape. Increasing backstay tension does a lot of things on a fractional rig: it tensions the forestay which in turn flattens the jib. Increasing backstay tension induces controlled mast bend, which flattens the mainsail and opens the leech of the sail. This allows quick depowering as the wind increases and so allows a fractional rig to sail in a wider wind speed range without reefing, or making a headsail change than a masthead rig, although arguably requiring a bit more sail trimming skills.

In the past fractional rigs used to require running backstays. But today better spar materials and design approaches have pretty much eliminated the need for running backstays. That said, fractional rigs intended for offshore use, will often have running backstays that are only rigged in heavy weather once the mainsail has been reefed. The geometry of these running backstays typically allows the boat to be tacked without tacking the running backstays.



Brent Swain said:


> Overly asymmetrical looks like poor directional stability. A couple of dagger boards aft, at an outward angle may help.


I am not sure whether the 'overly assymmetrical' comment was directed towards the hull or rig. In terms of the rig, the fractional rigs allow the center of effort to be moved slightly further forward in the boat, and that allows the center of resistance of the keel to be located further forward so that there is a greater separation between the keel and the strut and rudder, improving diectional stability.

In terms of the hull being assymetrical, I have not run any detailed numbers, but I ran a quick calculation at 15 degrees of heel and the center of buoyancy did not move very far foreward, and therefore the boat is not likely to noticably change trim. The waterlines remain fairly symmetrical at that angle of heel as well. There would be some jacking of the rudder at that heel angle but the rudder is reasonably deep and has good surface area so I would not expect the design to be excessively prone to wiping out or broaching.

That said, I ready acknowldge that I am an amateur, and this was not drafted on software that allowed quick calculations at various heel angles. If I thought that I was actually going to build this boat, I would want to work with a professional yacht designer and would expect the lines to be tweaked accordingly.

Jeff


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## MikeJohns

bobperry said:


> It's good to see that everyone is really getting into the Christmas spirit.
> 
> Merry Christmas Mike.


Thanks. Merry Christmas Bob. And Brent, and everyone else here. Hope you all have a relaxing time and are fortunate enough to have loved ones to share it with.

Here's raising a glass to the simple pleasure of mucking about with boats !


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## hpeer

I've been off sailnet for a few years but recently started to pop by again.

Having 2 steel boats I was delighted to see such an active thread.

I was then somewhat chagrined to read the last few pages and hear the tone, ug.

Bob, thanks for your post above re: name calling. Who wants to step into a mud slinging contest! 

I hope to have some time to catch up on the thread ove the holiday.

Merry Christmas to all.


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## Faster

hpeer said:


> I've been off sailnet for a few years but recently started to pop by again.


Welcome back!


hpeer said:


> I hope to have some time to catch up on the thread ove the holiday.


Hope you have a looooonng Christmas break! 



hpeer said:


> Merry Christmas to all.


..and to you and yours!


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## bobperry

Hpeer:L
I don't know you.
Do you have a voucher?


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## bobperry

Merry Christmas to all of you.
Here is one of this years crop of cartoon boats. I did this one for the daughter of a friend.
Cartoon boat calendars are available in a powerboat version and a sailboaty version. If you are interested PM me and I can hook you up with the guy who put them together.


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## smackdaddy

Well, it may not be the salon of a steel sailboat, but I've got this going for me...



















...along with two awesome sons and a steaming pot of seafood gumbo bubbling on the stove.

Brent - Merry Christmas! Seriously. I truly hope you have a wonderful holiday.

Everyone else - same to you!


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## hpeer

bobperry said:


> Hpeer:L
> I don't know you.
> Do you have a voucher?


I've got a Brewer Murray 33 and (better yet) my Wife has a 44' Alan Pape Steelmaid.

Does that count as a voucher?


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## aeventyr60

Better introduce your steelmaid!

Happy Holidays!


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## bobperry

Wait a minute!
Don't you live in Florida Smack?
What's with the fire in the fire place? Ambience?

hpeer:
I have this line from a movie where the guy says something like "Do you have a voucher?" I cant remember the movie and you can't Google anything with the word "voucher" in it. Maybe the movie is THE JERK with Steve Martin. I'm not sure.


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## aeventyr60

Hey Bob,

happy holidays! Will celebrate the 18th year aboard our Perry designed yacht next week!


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## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Wait a minute!
> Don't you live in Florida Smack?
> What's with the fire in the fire place? Ambience?


Texas dude! It's like 35F out there right now!


----------



## hpeer

aeventyr60 said:


> Better introduce your steelmaid!
> 
> Happy Holidays!


The design was Was modified by Pape from origional ketch to cutter at origional owners request. Built at CMC in Looes, England.


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## SloopJonB

Merry Christmas to all of you and your families. Here's hoping the new year is even better than the last for everyone.


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## blt2ski

Hey smack,

Its warmer up here in the NW! In the 50's! swimming weather around here. Great day to sail......skiing on the other hand......talke about a waste. no snow at my area as of yet. waaaaaaaaaaaaaa, and double waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. 

Will take pics of boat as to whom stole it etc........Might have it back......

Bob, francess lee looks great. saw it in the shed today........why is a bow roller on the transom? does the boat go both ways equally?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? or is that for the mantus anchor to slow it down some?

marty


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## jak3b

Its been in the 60's here for awhile now.Not a cloud in the sky either.I went sailing yesterday.Called my sister who is the Boston area she didnt want to hear it;-).


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## outbound

Hpeer you are a lucky dog. Beautiful boat. Always like Alan Pap designs. Still have the study plans for a cutter he mailed me years ago. Enjoy her and Boxing Day


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## smackdaddy

blt2ski said:


> Hey smack,
> 
> Its warmer up here in the NW! In the 50's! swimming weather around here. Great day to sail......skiing on the other hand......talke about a waste. no snow at my area as of yet. waaaaaaaaaaaaaa, and double waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
> 
> Will take pics of boat as to whom stole it etc........Might have it back......
> 
> Bob, francess lee looks great. saw it in the shed today........why is a bow roller on the transom? does the boat go both ways equally?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? or is that for the mantus anchor to slow it down some?
> 
> marty


The boys and I are going skiing/boarding 27-30. I'll post pics.


----------



## blt2ski

smackdaddy said:


> The boys and I are going skiing/boarding 27-30. I'll post pics.


 grumble grumble grumble...........

Marty

ps, the murderators of this site have deleted blutos words, as they were just a slight bit inflammatory and degrading to mr smackers sons......mr smackers on the other hand, deserved ALL he got!

sincerely
murderator squad


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## bobperry

This beautiful card is the work of my pal and valued helper Jody Culbertson III.


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## Brent Swain

Had a beautiful sail down the Strait yesterday . Sunny skies , 15 knots of NW wind, downwind sailing ,decks warm and dry for the first time in a long time. Forecast looks like more of the same. Ice storm wiping our power back east. May be out for a while. Bet they are glad they followed Smacks advice to go electric heat, and not mine to have wood stove ready at all times
Ya, sure they are , Smack.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Let's see:
> Most of us here enjoy exploring the edges of yachting from canoes to ocean racing gran prix boats and everything in between. Why? Because we just like boats. We are open to new ideas and we respect the ideas of old. We do our best to investigate all new structural options. We pick and choose what we like and don't like and we try to be broad minded. We exercise both subjective and objective criteria in making our preferences known. I can't possibly see how the term "luddite" would apply here. Someone embracing everything from Viking longboats to my Baba 30 to the latest Euro rocket from Paulo would hardly fit the definition of "luddite".
> 
> On the other hand, there are some who cling to a simplistic creative process in a material that is anything but user friendly and consistently produces boats, not yachts, that give no value at all to aesthetics. But still these boats are held up as the "ultimate and only answer" and if you do not agree then you area fool. The same designs are produced over and over as if they had achieved ultimate perfection already and there was no value to change or evolution.. We have seen this philosophy voiced here ad nauseum by one poster. "You do it my way or you are stupid" pretty much sums it up accurately. Given the consistency with this approach I think we have found our textbook definition of "luddite" . But I won't use that term. I'll try not to be a name caller. It's really a low point in the debate when all you have left is name calling and personal attacks.
> I'll make it my New Year's resolution not to be a name caller.


Some young beginners just pulled a 36 ft hull together in a few days, a beautifully fair hull. No filler necessary. One has worked on fibreglass boats, where the "Experts" sarcastically ridiculed her for wearing a mask to stop the fumes . She said they didn't have many brain cells left among the lot of them. That stuff sure didn't look user friendly to her. I have worked on fiberglass boats in the past . Anything but user friendly, if you value your health. And damned expensive, and time consuming as well. Also far more fragile and less forgiving. Many have built fair, fine steel boats, with no more help than a book, a video and a set of plans, which left them with few if any questions to ask me. This is the reason steel boats have become the dominant choice for long term offshore cruisers, especially among Europeans.
( Check out the book "Modern Offshore Cruising " by Jimmy Cornel.) 
These are practical people who wouldn't consider sacrificing strength function and seaworthiness for decorativeness. They don't give a rat's ass what naïve landlubbers think. Nor do I.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Wait a minute!
> Don't you live in Florida Smack?
> What's with the fire in the fire place? Ambience?
> 
> hpeer:
> I have this line from a movie where the guy says something like "Do you have a voucher?" I cant remember the movie and you can't Google anything with the word "voucher" in it. Maybe the movie is THE JERK with Steve Martin. I'm not sure.


When friends on one of my 31's found ice on the decks in Halifax , they headed for Bermuda, where they found the locals trying to keep warm in front of a roaring fireplace, at 75 degrees farenheit.
Warm can be relative to what you are used to.
A friend in San Diego told me it was hitting 20 degrees F there, unheard of . The pyramids have ice on them. Fortunately the Pacific is pumping warm air in here.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Brent although I'm not a Trawler kind of guy I can appreciate the beauty of this particular vessel. I had hoped you would address the question asked not clumsily try to make a blind attack. The yard folks know it wasn't my boat. They also know I'm not writing the checks. They finally know the owner wants his/ hers boat returned to its pre damaged state. I would appreciate input on how you would do this with one of your designs. Instead of throwing stones, if you have the stones please answer.


I'd take patterns of the opposite side, cut the plates out and replace any damaged ones. Temporary longitudinal stiffeners across any seams would be needed to keep things fair during welding . The more the better. Foam in the area would have to be removed to 6 inches either side of cuts and welds, to avoid a fire, and wet blankets put over the foam while welding. I'd use the steel cutting skillsaw blades for cutting out any damaged plate, to minimize fire risk.

You can add more short welds to the stringers without doing any harm. Dented plate on a 60 footer has no structural relevance. There is zero chance of it causing holing there. Workboats go for decades with such dents, and no worries. Working on a brake press, I would sometimes bend plate 90 degrees the wrong way , flatten it out and bend it back 90 degrees the other way, with no structural problems. Stainless or high tensile aluminium would have cracked end to end in that situation . Mild steel is that forgiving. However ,replacing the plate eliminates the problem of filler falling out.
The auto repair business and auto rental business have honed to a fine art doing or not doing, but billing for, unnecessary work. Should it surprise anyone that the practise has found its way into the marine industry? The work and arguments you describe sound like exactly that.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Actually, origami boat building has been around since at least the 17th century.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The metal is just a minor distinction.
> 
> And I don't oppose it at all. It's just not that great - especially when there are far, far better methods, materials, and designers these days.


Origami methods have been used as long as sheet material has been around. The problem was, when they started using metal for boats, they didn't take their advice from sheet metal workers, but took it instead from wooden boat builders, who treated it like wood, a material which only has strength in one direction, and doesn't come in huge sheets, with equal strength in all directions. That threw away the main advantages of the material. Once that mistake was accepted, it remained dogmatically cast in stone, and any suggestion that there could be better ways of taking advantage of the materials properties were sarcastically ridiculed, as is often the case with new ideas, challenging traditionalist dogma.


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> This is all obfuscation as usual. Learn some basic beam theory for starters. Materials resist loads in compression tension or shear. If you want to rely on compression you need a column or an arch, and then the failure mode is not the material strength but the resistance to buckling. Metals are as strong in compression as in tension but if the strain increases at a rate faster than the stress your structure fails. That collapse is from a completely different scenario to those which you aware of. Of real concern is that no matter how many people try to educate you, you choose to ignore basic engineering knowledge.
> 
> As for holes and punch shear, grillage will yield along with plate without damage providing the shear strength of the collision area exceeds the structural yield strength of the structure. That's very basic naval architecture and a design requirement for some vessels.
> 
> You harp on about holes but you have never given examples except a ship and one of your design that sheared it's plate rotating it's keels into the hull.
> 
> Where are going with this ? I said the span of the small section unsupported longitudinals is too great for them to be effective structurally(other than as local plate stiffeners). What don't you get about that statement ?
> 
> You believe(d) and tell others that they have magical properties unknown to engineering and that they are arches, but I showed with a detailed analysis that if you make a structure that wants to straighten out then it will deform in buckling more easily. What can't you grasp about this? I posted a lot of diagrams for you before and you still fail to grasp it! Although I suspect you do by now but you are too compromised by your past marketing hype and publications.
> 
> Do you get it that your boat designs are weaker not stronger boats? The small boats are apparently strong enough, they dent a bit too easily in some areas, but importantly thay will not scale to 60 feet without being abysmally weak unless they have sufficient transverse framing added. That's my message, all this bluster and BS from you is simply trying to mask the simple fact and that you don't know what you are talking about.
> 
> For a start lets just make it clear that you just made that up about Bob Perry. Why invent so many outrageous lies? Then when you are shown to be lying you have no remorse or sense of guilt, that's pretty brazen.
> 
> To address the issue of qualification: It's very clear to everyone in the industry that yacht designers don't need professional qualifications because they are covered very effectively by classification society rule and design standards which removes all their personal liability. You only need pro qualifications for areas where the class society needs specific design outside of class rules signed off by a suitably indemnified person. That's usually not required for yacht designers.
> 
> Yacht designers are better off working in a design office and getting their experience from another yacht designer, and only working with engineers where they want specific engineering design. No one ever said otherwise did they Brent !
> 
> Brent, there are simple engineering concepts that reading your posts I honestly doubt you could even grasp. I can set you a very simple challenge to illustrate this and challenge your myopic view certainly of physics and engineering graduate level education.


You claim that a batten out in the open ,attached to nothing behaves the same as a longitudinal welded and contained inside a steel hull, and you accuse me of failing to understand basic engineering principles ? I have explained the principles time and time again , but each time it goes right over your head. So I'll try one more time , not for Mike , ( he'll never get it) but for other readers. When you weld a longitudinal to a flat plate, then curve the plate, it puts the longitudinal under compression, the inside becoming shorter than the outside . No, increased outward pressure doesn't reduce the ability for it to resist inward pressure. When you put pressure on the hull, and longitudinal , from the outside, the only way it can give, is for the ends to move along the plate, to which it is welded. You have suggested that it bulges outwards, which would require small angle iron compressed on end, to stretch several feet of 3/16th plate at 11,250 lbs per linear inch tensile strength. The ends are fully supported by the plate they are welded to, and the curves, which they in turn maintain.. To do that, it would have to diagonally stretch 3/16h plate, with a tensile strength of 11, 250 lbs per linear inch, 3 ft of it in the topsides.
The other is for the longitudinals to buckle. With a weld every 4 inches which has more metal than the cross section of the longitudinal, you would have to bend it in 4 inch increments, in a span of 4 inches, supported by the ends, which continue to be supported by big welds a quarter way up the leg of the angle . You would also have to twist the 3/8th by 1 inch angles . So give us your estimate of what it would take to bend the inside flange of 3/8th by 1 inch angle in a 4 inch span, then the leg, 5/8th by 3/8th angle again in a 4 inch span, held to the plate by a weld halfway up the leg. Not by direct pressure, but by pressure at 90 degrees to the direction of the bend. Add to that the support of the rest of the angle, far beyond the bends.
Or perhaps you could explain how you get pressure on the end of an angle, to stretch 3/16th plate , 3 or more feet of it, at a tensile strength of 11,250 lbs per linear inch.
Span is the amount of curve it takes to support the angle ,which in turn supports the curve. It is not an angle standing alone, attached to nothing, which you imply, as I point out above.
I remember the Joshua style boats, which Moitessier, Patrick Van God, and others, proved beyond all reasonable doubt. They had only transverse frames, which looked like 2 inch by 1/4 inch flatbar frames, running continuously from deck to keel, approximately 12 feet of continuous run, with no longitudinals , nothing to support them in their entire length. So what supported them? The curve, just like longitudinals run along, and supported by the longitudinal curves of a hard chine hull. Once a stiffener runs along a relatively short curve, the curve supports it, as well as any solid object. Running it further adds considerably to its support. Unless one is slow enough to believe the direction determines strength, and that taking identical panels and turning them 90 degrees, without doing anything else to them, affects their strength.
As I pointed out before, the builders of the keel which rotated into the hull, ignored my design. Had they been built to the plans, they would have not moved at all. Are you suggesting that if someone takes one of your designs and leaves out important structural components you drew in , any resulting failures are your fault? Does what Bob calls "Cosmic Karma " take the place of structural components in your designs, and forgive their omission?
As I have pointed out , very successful origami boats in the 55 foot range have cruised some of the roughest oceans in the world for many years, with no structural problems of any kind. As I have pointed out, 60 ft is definitely the upper limit , but one can easily pull together larger boats, and put any framing one chooses, saving a huge amount of time, money and filler in the process.
I have seen you and others on BD.net swooning over pictures of plastic twin keelers with high aspect keels attached to about foot of fibreglass hull. 
How do you attach a foot of keel root to a fibreglass hull, more strongly than 8 ft of low aspect keel to a steel hull ,( tensile strength of 2.16 million pounds for the 16 feet total of 3/16th hull plate at the weld seam) with 3x3x 1/2 inch angle inside, slotted into it? You don't!
How many fibreglass hulls could withstand a 12 knot collision with a rock, including Lauren Giles designs, without holing? NONE!
How many twin keelers have keels more strongly attached to their hulls than what I have designed, ( Not what others, ignoring my drawings, do) especially your beloved plastic boats ? None!

Take a sledgehammer to one of my boats, far from any structural hard points, like frames or chines. You will never dent it. Then try it near a hard point, like a frame or chine. There it will dent far more easily. It needs something hard to stretch against. That is why framed boats, with typically lighter plating, to make up for the weight of framing, dent and hole far more easily.
Hang up a piece of plate from a rope and hit it with a pickaxe. Try dent it. You cant. Now put it down on a circle of hard points, and try dent it. It dents far more easily . That is why, if you want to break a stick, you don't hold it up in the air and try break it, you hold it against a hard point ( like a frame)to break it.
Lawyers have told me that decades of trouble free cruising, including the severe torture tests my boats have survived, which would have destroyed most boats in minutes, eliminates any liabilities I could have otherwise faced. They told me that what they have endured is definitive proof of their structural integrity, beyond any reasonable doubt .
From the outset, I have not had a positive experiences with yacht design "experts." My first boat, designed by a top, world reknown designer, and tank tested at the Davidson lab in New York, was an abortion. Zero directional stability! Ideas I had, with zero sailing and cruising experience, about changing it, eventually resulted in a huge improvement. When I designed my first steel boat , I took my drawings to another highly respected designer, who told me I should go for a plywood deck, one of the biggest mistakes you can make on a steel boat. I had lived under a plywood deck on my first boat, and clearly remember seeing it lined with a layer of ice, while my stove roared .Its a deck you cant insulate without inviting dry rot. He also suggested I shouldn't have a 4 inch bulwark, because that would hold a 4 inch layer of water over my entire deck, when the boat was going to windward, heeled 25 degrees! When I suggested that the water would not stay in an even layer over a deck heeled 25 degrees, he seemed incapable of grasping the concept.
Is that the kind of density you suggest I serve an apprenticeship under? Or maybe Colvin, who 's 34 footers don't have headroom above the settee berths, who's designs have interiors which are more like a collection of crawl spaces and closets. ( some of which I have been hired to rectify)? Or maybe the classic, "sacred cow" designers, who took nearly 100 years to realize that you get more interior space if you don't waste third of the boat length on cockpit, or that it is not a good idea to put the longest possible boat on the shortest possible waterline, or put the rudder closer to the middle of the boat, instead of at the back end ?
I need that kind if educating like a chicken needs Colonel Saunders. Ditto my clients! The inability of some to grasp the points I made above, are an indication of how it lowers the thinking ability of such "apprentices" to the lowest common denominator.


----------



## bobperry

Boy, here it is a beautiful Christmas Eve, sun shining, nice music on and Brent is just as angry and defensive as ever. Must be a lovely world you live in Brent that keeps you so constantly uptight.

"They don't give a rat's ass what naïve landlubbers think. Nor do I. "
Fine, then why do you get your knickers in a twist at every post that is in opposition to or questions your approach? You get way too upset to convince me. And once again your name calling is a sure fire sign of the weakeness to your arguments. If name calling is the best you can do you have lost the "argument". Didn't anyone bother to teach you that growing up?

"Does what Bob calls "Cosmic Karma ""
Well, there you go again Brent making things up. Inventing facts. Please show me exactly where I used that term. Just cut and paste the exact quote please. I'll wait. And don't change the subject. Please find the quote so you can back up your words.


----------



## Lou452

Merry Christmas, Peace on earth and good will to all mankind ! Each day should be like this or BETTER.  The real golden rule is to treat others like we want to be treated. It takes time to back up and think about this. The best gift we can give is of ourselves. 
I just was reading a book about what else Sailing It said that hull material is just 20% of the build cost. Going on it states this is just an economy of 2-4% . Do you all find this to be true? I gather most of my information from what I read, then I must judge it. 
I am having a great day off !
regards, Lou


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## bobperry

Lou:
If you are talking just about hull material and no labor I'd say that sounds high to me.


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## blt2ski

I'll probably agree with BO on the %. BUT, none the less, the hull is a smallish % of the whole boat. Add in sails, motor, deck gear etc, then hull is a very very very small % of the whole cost of a boat. 

While I do not want to get into a arguement with anyone over which hull material is best persay.......it shows that even steel, aluminum, FRP etc, it really will not matter which you have a boat built of, or build yourself, you still have a BIG expense in the cost of the rest of the boat. Again, assuming ALL is bought new to new'ish if you will. Not from scratch, not including a cost of some sort for your personal labor if you built it vs buying it. 

When I do landscapes for folks, many times the most expensive part is literally "me". Materials are a minor part of the deal, depending upon the what I am doing, how I am doing it. Access.....can I get that 100 yds of topsoil to your back yard with my bobcat at 20-25yd and hr, or do I have to wheel barrow at 2-3 yds and hr, or in some cases, literally in 5 gal buckets at 1/2 yd per person an hr up or down 50-75 steps!

Marty


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## Lou452

Thank both of you for the direct reply. It is nice to have a book club so to speak. This book is - How to sail around the world , Hal Roth - Next part of interest in this book is "A new steel Hull in 15 days ? " Multi chine Hull by E.G Van de Stadt of Wormerveer Holland. So it seems a steel hull can be built with some degree of speed. 
The book is not about boat construction and it does not say how many man hours or if it is 15 days multiple shifts / this could translate to be 30-90 days. Time was also saved by accuracy of cnc plasma cutters. 
The book is looking at pros and cons , The books major Pro for steal was the hull type made of steal had the best chance against coral. 
I am not advocating any one best boat hull be it wood, steal, ferro- cement, fiberglass or other material. I Just brought this up. Because of past claims of speed. I am in no way going to get on the you can walk out one day and decide to build a large vessel in the back yard as fast as a factory. They have engineers and skilled workers capital investment. You would have a back yard
Yes Slocum built the Spray. Let me also point out with humility and no malice as much success as had in his life of adventure some loss was evident.
Just a rehash of many past pages. Felt good to type it 
Good Day, Lou


----------



## outbound

I believe Slocum did not build Spray. He restored it.


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## bobperry

That is correct.

Where is Brent? He has a quote to clear up.


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## SloopJonB

I'm not searching back through 295 pages to find the post but wasn't this going for $50K or so a while back?

Attention Blue water cruisers - Brent Swain Sailboat- Dove II - Campbell River Sailboats For Sale - Kijiji Campbell River Canada.

It would appear that market realities have settled in. At that price, Brent's comments about a cheap blue water boat have some truth.


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## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> I'm not searching back through 295 pages to find the post but wasn't this going for $50K or so a while back?
> 
> Attention Blue water cruisers - Brent Swain Sailboat- Dove II - Campbell River Sailboats For Sale - Kijiji Campbell River Canada.
> 
> It would appear that market realities have settled in. At that price, Brent's comments about a cheap blue water boat have some truth.


Honestly, the only one that's surprised is Brent.


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## outbound

20k for Dove II. It's things that that which convinced me to not do steel. I was highly enthused to do an Alan Pape design awhile back. Got to the point of looking at plans and taking a welding course. Then calculated out man hours for construction and cost of interiors. I know Brent has the time to look around and do these things cheaply. Even if I had the time I would not be pleased with the result so had planned a white wood and teak interior.Cost of the interior is about the same regards of hull material. Figured with part time professional help was looking at ~7-10k man hours. Figured excluding my labor was looking at 75-100k. In glass you may assume a 20-30% loss ( higher for one offs) and about the same in Al. In real dollars if you use and maintain the boat maybe up to 50% loss over life of ownership ( looking at ~ 10y). But in steel ( even professionally constructed with perfect survey) you will have trouble selling it and then at even greater loses. If you want a metal hull at all levels ( modern design with good sailing performance, decent resale, ease of maintenance, aesthetics) Al makes better boat then Fe. 
Steve went from a Mason to a Boreal. From what I understand he is pleased as punch. Wonder if steel owners are running into the same hassles with insurance and yards that wooden boat owner are experiencing.


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## bobperry

Yeah and despite the horrible looking hard dodger that's not a bad looking boat.

Still waiting for Brent to clarify the origin of that quote he credits me with.


----------



## DJR351

outbound said:


> I believe Slocum did not build Spray. He restored it.


OT Post....

True he didn't build Spray, he rebuilt it, there was not much left of the original boat after removing the rot.....

While it may seem to be nothing but an exercise in semantics, being an avid restorer of many things from furniture to cars to houses to boats, one does learn fairly quickly that there is a huge difference between restore and rebuild......


----------



## hpeer

outbound said:


> 20k for Dove II. It's things that that which convinced me to not do steel. I was highly enthused to do an Alan Pape design awhile back. Got to the point of looking at plans and taking a welding course. Then calculated out man hours for construction and cost of interiors. I know Brent has the time to look around and do these things cheaply. Even if I had the time I would not be pleased with the result so had planned a white wood and teak interior.Cost of the interior is about the same regards of hull material. Figured with part time professional help was looking at ~7-10k man hours. Figured excluding my labor was looking at 75-100k. In glass you may assume a 20-30% loss ( higher for one offs) and about the same in Al. In real dollars if you use and maintain the boat maybe up to 50% loss over life of ownership ( looking at ~ 10y). But in steel ( even professionally constructed with perfect survey) you will have trouble selling it and then at even greater loses. If you want a metal hull at all levels ( modern design with good sailing performance, decent resale, ease of maintenance, aesthetics) Al makes better boat then Fe.
> Steve went from a Mason to a Boreal. From what I understand he is pleased as punch. Wonder if steel owners are running into the same hassles with insurance and yards that wooden boat owner are experiencing.


I see a lot of comments that seem to assume the only way to acquire a steel boat is to build one.

And I see a lot of comments indicating that steel boats loose their resale value.

Looking at it another way, I decided to buy steel in part because used steel boats can be a good value buy ( relatively inexpensive) and I got to go sailing right away.

I can't imagine the effort of doing a build, or partial build myself.

Both of our boats were professionally done (hull) and then fitted out (interior) by the owner. I would be very cautious of a homemade hull. We actually went to closing on an aluminum schooner, home made, and backed out on survey due to build issues. A very nice boat, with irregular welding. Ouch.

We ended up with the Pape and are very happy with her. Surely not everyone's boat. But she works for us, well.

The Brewer is getting some much needed attention, but we are happy with her as well.

So, why not take advantage of the market and buy used?

But then again, we have no intention of selling either boat.


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## bobperry

Peer:
Can you post a pick of your boat please? I've known Ted Brewer since 1973. He's a good pal. He was very important to me in my early days in this business. I think "respect" is the word I am looking for.


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## hpeer

Bob,

I don't have any real good photos on my Ipad. This is all I have. I'll try to remember to do better when I get to a real computer.

1985ish. Murray 33, his smallest steel design. Just blasted the hull and found a bad spot due to persistent leak around engine control cable and radar cable. Arg! It's those damn little details.

I've had her in Newfoundland for 8 years, where I could not get the time to do many things right. Now I've got her close at hand.

Ted is a great guy, I've never met him, but we have spoken and consulted with him.


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## outbound

You make a very valid point.there are many sound beautifully built steel boats going for a song given how difficult it is you convince Americans to own steel.your two are examples. Fairs winds


----------



## bobperry

Peer:
That is a very nice looking hull shape.
Do you also own a Brewer?


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## hpeer

Bob,

That is the Brewer Murray 33.

Here is the Pape Steelmaid.


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## outbound

Always liked his cutters with radius chine but the hard chine looks good in your boat. From the picture looks like she's well maintained. Perhaps you would share your real world experience in man hours and expense for your maintenance program. Got to look at a 46' Puffin before doing my last boat. That owner stressed that if properly designed and coated at time of construction his maintenance program was not much worse than grp boats. Unlike Brent seemed he preferred access to all areas of the inside of the hull and had no sprayed in place foam that I could see. He was a prior commercial ship's captain so had pre existing extensive experience with steel vessels.


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## bobperry

Peer:
That Pape boat looks great. Nice lines. I have been nagging on and on here that just because a vesel is built in steel does not mean it has to be an ugly boat. Your boats prove my point.


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Always liked his cutters with radius chine but the hard chine looks good in your boat. From the picture looks like she's well maintained. Perhaps you would share your real world experience in man hours and expense for your maintenance program. Got to look at a 46' Puffin before doing my last boat. That owner stressed that if properly designed and coated at time of construction his maintenance program was not much worse than grp boats. Unlike Brent seemed he preferred access to all areas of the inside of the hull and had no sprayed in place foam that I could see. He was a prior commercial ship's captain so had pre existing extensive experience with steel vessels.


While lack of sprayfoam is an attractive idea, it only works in warm climates, or on boats which are not lived aboard full time. In colder climates, for full time liveaboards, there is nothing more miserable than a boat which has not been sprayfoamed , nor more comfortable than one which has been properly sprayfoamed. I have seen many try alternatives to sprayfoam , none of which have worked all that well.
The trick with sprayfoamed boats is to get a thick enough epoxy buildup on the steel before sprayfoaming, putting zero reliance on the spray foam for steel protection. The steel behind mine, anywhere I have checked it, is in perfect condition, after living aboard full time for 29 years. Many "professionally built " boats here (Foulkes, and Fehrs) have zero paint under the foam and most rust out rather quickly behind the foam. Most never had the mill scale removed , beneath the foam. Some Foulkes boats , bought in the bare shell stage, and amateur finished ( properly) may still be good boats, but one should steer clear of anything "professionally" finished by Foulkes or Fehr.


----------



## Brent Swain

hpeer said:


> Bob,
> 
> I don't have any real good photos on my Ipad. This is all I have. I'll try to remember to do better when I get to a real computer.
> 
> 1985ish. Murray 33, his smallest steel design. Just blasted the hull and found a bad spot due to persistent leak around engine control cable and radar cable. Arg! It's those damn little details.
> 
> I've had her in Newfoundland for 8 years, where I could not get the time to do many things right. Now I've got her close at hand.
> 
> Ted is a great guy, I've never met him, but we have spoken and consulted with him.


There are many smallish steel boats who's happy owners enjoy cruising in them, constantly putting a lie to the claim by numbers juggling armchair experts, that steel doesn't work in boats under 40 feet.


----------



## Brent Swain

Lou452 said:


> Merry Christmas, Peace on earth and good will to all mankind ! Each day should be like this or BETTER.  The real golden rule is to treat others like we want to be treated. It takes time to back up and think about this. The best gift we can give is of ourselves.
> I just was reading a book about what else Sailing It said that hull material is just 20% of the build cost. Going on it states this is just an economy of 2-4% . Do you all find this to be true? I gather most of my information from what I read, then I must judge it.
> I am having a great day off !
> regards, Lou


In a steel boat, where you make your anchors , engine mounts, wood stove, tankage, etc out off hull material, the hull material represents a much bigger percentage of the total cost, than it does in non metal boats.
The huge amount of used gear available , for a fraction the cost of new, can even further increase the percentage of the total, represented by the cost of the hull material. We are awash in such goodies.


----------



## Brent Swain

Lou452 said:


> Thank both of you for the direct reply. It is nice to have a book club so to speak. This book is - How to sail around the world , Hal Roth - Next part of interest in this book is "A new steel Hull in 15 days ? " Multi chine Hull by E.G Van de Stadt of Wormerveer Holland. So it seems a steel hull can be built with some degree of speed.
> The book is not about boat construction and it does not say how many man hours or if it is 15 days multiple shifts / this could translate to be 30-90 days. Time was also saved by accuracy of cnc plasma cutters.
> The book is looking at pros and cons , The books major Pro for steal was the hull type made of steal had the best chance against coral.
> I am not advocating any one best boat hull be it wood, steal, ferro- cement, fiberglass or other material. I Just brought this up. Because of past claims of speed. I am in no way going to get on the you can walk out one day and decide to build a large vessel in the back yard as fast as a factory. They have engineers and skilled workers capital investment. You would have a back yard
> Yes Slocum built the Spray. Let me also point out with humility and no malice as much success as had in his life of adventure some loss was evident.
> Just a rehash of many past pages. Felt good to type it
> Good Day, Lou


I have tacked together a hull in two days. Decks take another 8 hours. Cabin and wheelhouse 10 hours. Cockpit, about 3 hours. Keels and skeg another 8 to 10 hours. Aperture and stern tube 3 hours. I once built a 36 in Winnipeg in three weeks of 8 to9 hour days. That included shell, tankage , hatches, lifelines, engine mounts , stern tube ,thru hulls ,all deck fittings, self steering, fully detailed mast , anchor winch , etc., etc., in effect all the metal work. He had a welder working on my time off, so he was almost ready for painting in three weeks. I don't have the stamina to do that any more.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> 20k for Dove II. It's things that that which convinced me to not do steel. I was highly enthused to do an Alan Pape design awhile back. Got to the point of looking at plans and taking a welding course. Then calculated out man hours for construction and cost of interiors. I know Brent has the time to look around and do these things cheaply. Even if I had the time I would not be pleased with the result so had planned a white wood and teak interior.Cost of the interior is about the same regards of hull material. Figured with part time professional help was looking at ~7-10k man hours. Figured excluding my labor was looking at 75-100k. In glass you may assume a 20-30% loss ( higher for one offs) and about the same in Al. In real dollars if you use and maintain the boat maybe up to 50% loss over life of ownership ( looking at ~ 10y). But in steel ( even professionally constructed with perfect survey) you will have trouble selling it and then at even greater loses. If you want a metal hull at all levels ( modern design with good sailing performance, decent resale, ease of maintenance, aesthetics) Al makes better boat then Fe.
> Steve went from a Mason to a Boreal. From what I understand he is pleased as punch. Wonder if steel owners are running into the same hassles with insurance and yards that wooden boat owner are experiencing.


Plastic boats are being given away. The entire boat market is down. I think the peace of mind knowing you can hit almost anything out there without sinking, puts steel far ahead of most materials . That is why many experienced offshore cruisers prefer steel.
When you are sinking in mid ocean, after colliding with something, the balance on your bank account wont keep you afloat. That doesn't mean much at that point. Numbers didn't help the Sleavins!


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## bobperry

Brent:
I'm still waiting for an explanation of that quote you invented for me. Please provide the exact source of your quote. If you can't it will be just another example of your constant BS. There is a word for people who like to make things up. I don't mind being quoted but it has to be an actual quote of mine and not something you invent for your own ends.

The word I have in mind is "liar".


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## bobperry

Appears that BS can't provide the origin of that quote. He made it up. That's a low class move but to be expected.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Boy, here it is a beautiful Christmas Eve, sun shining, nice music on and Brent is just as angry and defensive as ever. Must be a lovely world you live in Brent that keeps you so constantly uptight.
> 
> "They don't give a rat's ass what naïve landlubbers think. Nor do I. "
> Fine, then why do you get your knickers in a twist at every post that is in opposition to or questions your approach? You get way too upset to convince me. And once again your name calling is a sure fire sign of the weakeness to your arguments. If name calling is the best you can do you have lost the "argument". Didn't anyone bother to teach you that growing up?
> 
> "Does what Bob calls "Cosmic Karma ""
> Well, there you go again Brent making things up. Inventing facts. Please show me exactly where I used that term. Just cut and paste the exact quote please. I'll wait. And don't change the subject. Please find the quote so you can back up your words.


It takes two to tango Bob. Mikey started it.
According to Bobs theory, when Vladimir Klitchko is in the boxing ring, and his opponent throws a jab at him, the only reason he defends himself is because he is ANGRY! If he was not so ANGRY, he would leave his hands at his sides and let his opponent beat the crap out of him, and would do nothing to defend himself. When he counters, it is only because he is ANGRY!
If he was not so angry, he would not throw a single punch in his defence. Bob would suggest that he should not be so ANGRY, and should simply let his opponent beat the crap out of him, not defend himself nor counter in any way.
That is the type of thinking Bob advocates . I don't think I would trust that kind of logic on any decision making! I certainly wouldn't pay $150 an hour for it!
Your comment about Cosmic Karma was a while back, either in this debate, or the Wolfanzee debate. Don't have the time to find it, but as you seem to have all the time in the world, you can find it yourself, unless I find a time when I have nothing better to do.

Crappy music season is winding down, we have an extra few minutes of daylight ,almost a half hour by the tenth of January, full pension is getting nearer, life is wunnerful!


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## Brent Swain

I just did an update on post 2939, page 294, if anyone wants to further their education, on structural principles in steel boat building. Check it out.


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## hpeer

A ways back someone asked me to comment on maintenance. Here is a long winded answer.

The Pape and Brewer are two very different boats. The Brewer has more traditional design with framing. The Pape has no stringers, but has rod or pipes at the chimes. This lets any water flow down and not collect.

The Pape has hard insulation, glued in. The hull was electroplated with aluminum. I've had no issues with the Pape except a spot under the refer where there was a persistent leak not properly attended to by the PO. there is an old repair under the head sink from a sink leak, I am told by original owner. We have had a couple of spots of rust that needed attention. Also I added the radar arch and close up 24 bolt holes in the aft deck due to railing etc. the big issue with the Pape is that the sprit rusted out. I replaced it with 316. 

While we have put a lot of hours into this boat most was in upgrades. We have had her for about 4 years. 1985ish boat.

The Brewer, 1985ish, is sprayed foam. I'm having some trouble with that now. She has been in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland the whole time we've had her, 8-9 years. She was in excellent shape when bought.

I've had a niggling water leak in the aft cockpit/lazarette area I have only now found. On one side melt water would channel over the seat and the engine control panel cable would direct it into the boat. On the other side spray would get into the hull via the radar cable, radar on a mast on the stern. 

These leaks, which I have only now located, have caused me no end of grief. One year the boat filled almost to the floorboards with water. PO had coated the interior of hull with coal tar epoxy. That has, in places come off. In her aft haunches water got in under the foam. Including under the non removable fuel tank. ( it did come out, in 10 pound hunks). I'm in the process of cutting out nicely done interior work to get at the damn foam. So far only the bottom of compartments, I hope.

I will have at least some small bits of replating to do.

About four years ago I started to get wee blisters under the hull paint, tiny rust spots. I tried to sand them out but too many, and they kept coming. This year I had her blasted and am repainting myself, not without trauma. That's another story.

PO had beautiful SS water tanks in keel voids. But because water got into the keels I took them out so I could get at and maintain the insides. That is still damn tough because they are soooo deep. My current plan is to turn the keels into fuel tanks. Lids are about 80% built in basement.

It appears that the interior hull under the foam was painted with zinc chromate primer. Where it stayed dry it is ok, but not where water got to it.

...............

So, the moral of this is.....neither boat requires a whole lot of maintenance. Excepting the sprit, all of the issues I have are related to some kind of failing either a drippy sink, or a weird top side leak. To me that is not maintenance but corrective action.

When I read Brent I have very little to criticize. To restate what I hear him say ..... Do your upmost to build the boat right. Use SS on wear points, close any opportunity for water to get in, use good high quality epoxy inside and lots of it. If you do these things life will be simple. 

My woes occurred where those rules were broken. 

As to his specific hours quoted? Assuming he is talking very specifically about maintaining the original integrity of the hull coating only, then yes, maybe. I have to assume that is what he meant. Also, that he is accustomed to the "work boat patina" as I am.

I'll say this, in the little time we've had the Pape I've had two incidents where, if she were a glass boat, we would have lost her outright or incurred such extensive damage as to loose her in repair costs.


----------



## bobperry

No Brent. Just provide the truth to your post. Your quote.
That's all I ask, just the truth to your post.

You cannot do it. Your babbling does not work.
Show me the post.
I dare you. You made it up.

Doesn't really matter. You are you and I am me.
My work speaks for itself.
And your's speaks for you.

For someone who does not care what people think of his work you behave like a wounded animal.

I am comfy with that.


----------



## Lou452

I have a number of years in the welding trade, I have my own idea of what a good weld is and what is good enough. I have no boat building experience . Doing is so much different than abstract. 
I would like to ask in the hull skin is it a full penetration weld ? What is the preferred method. What is the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, In theory all methods can be successful.
Next how are the welders tested. After the welders are tested the machines checked, records I assume are made. Then what testing is done to insure finished quality ? 
We can have a good or ok hull material but the construction methods need to be up to snuff . 
I have a belief that the Ferro - Cement hulls faced doom because the skill need to build was grossly under estimated. This lead to unsafe conditions. The speed performance was also less than expected. I think people will make an allowance for slow and underperformance and live with a hull that keeps them safe. Safety is high performance. 
Good Day, Lou


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> full pension is getting nearer, life is wunnerful!


Brent, you have made a number of comments over the years indicating that you haven't held down a full time job, at least since your twenties, if ever.

Is that the case? If so, what sort of contribution to CPP/OAS have you made over the years?

You seem to be anxiously awaiting the start of benefits but it appears to this outsider that you've failed to chip in your share.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
BS invents his own reality.


----------



## blt2ski

Bob,

Farr 40 rod showing up monday afternoon assuming Fed ex gets here on time. Have about half of the product at the store.

Marty


----------



## bobperry

Marty:
That is very good news. Thanks. It won't be long now. Kim picked up the vang yesterday.
I'd say two weeks and we are good to go. Still need the cove stripe though.


----------



## NCC320

Brent,

Just curious. In all this discussion about steel vs. fiberglass, I don't recall you having posted a bit about your background. Sometime ago, Bob told us about his background and how he came to be a boat designer. 

How did Brent Swain become a designer and builder of boats? What was your background before you got into this line of work? When did you elect to go with/or when did you develop the origami technique? When did you design your first boat, how many have you designed, and when was the last boat designed (you indicate that you are more or less retired and spend most of your time cruising, so I suspect you don't actively design boats anymore, but still are involved from time to time with aiding those who elect to build one of your designs.)? Are all of your designs the origami style? Just include anything that you think the forum might like to know. I know it's none of my business, but those of us on the forum might be interested to know these things.

And a couple of comments not particularly related to the questions above. It appears to me that you are not active in boat design currently (being retired/cruising) while Bob is still quite active in the business. A couple of times, you mentioned $150/hr. and high prices that designers (Bob?) charge. Just an idle comment, but I suspect Bob gets more than that since he is at the top of the design world. And why shouldn't he get a high fee? He offers a service and his clients appear happy to pay that fee in return for what they get. Looks like a win-win situation to me.


----------



## Lou452

The skin on the hull is it a full penetration weld ? Plus I was asking a few more easy questions 
Good day , Lou


----------



## hpeer

I'm not the expert here and haven't built a boat myself, but have looked at and own a few. I'll take a stab at answers inline. ALSO, check out this web site. Lots of good videos. Guy is a first timer. 
SVSeeker

And this, really interesting and unusual.
Aluminum Lapstrake Colin Archer



Lou452 said:


> I have a number of years in the welding trade, I have my own idea of what a good weld is and what is good enough. I have no boat building experience . Doing is so much different than abstract.
> I would like to ask in the hull skin is it a full penetration weld ? SHOULD BE.
> What is the preferred method. What is the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, In theory all methods can be successful.
> Next how are the welders tested. After the welders are tested the machines checked, records I assume are made. Then what testing is done to insure finished quality ?
> 
> Many, if not most steel boats are self built. You won't find that level of cert there. I don't think that there is a single professional yard on the East US coast anymore. May be one or two.
> 
> We can have a good or ok hull material but the construction methods need to be up to snuff .
> 
> That is the crux of the matter.
> 
> I have a belief that the Ferro - Cement hulls faced doom because the skill need to build was grossly under estimated. This lead to unsafe conditions. The speed performance was also less than expected. I think people will make an allowance for slow and underperformance and live with a hull that keeps them safe. Safety is high performance.
> Good Day, Lou


Boat builds can fail in the welding, we have seen that. We have also seen good hulls that were not finished well. Then I have seen wonderful welding and finish on a completely insane design.

Finding the right mix of welding, finish and design is a trick. Not many steel boats fit that criteria. 10% would be my guess.

A few we saw were:
47' in 10 gauge
44' at 30+tons
Rusted through
Disco hall
Got caught in a drug bust


----------



## Lou452

Inrotech welding robotics is the only close up pictures I have seen so far. They are as to be expected high quality fillet welds. Made as a sales pitch for commercial production. The big boys can do it with few problems. We do have commercial yards here and in Canada. I have worked with a few x shipwelders they have all said it is a slave market and that's why ships are made in other lands. I have not been to a real ship yard since I was a kid and it was closing. I make this statement to show I am using (they said or they do) 
I have seen the Sub / sv seeker and that is just well... no comment. 
The aluminum boat I have not seen. I did notice that the post started in the year 2009 and the last I saw was 2013 they say they are close. I will look once more but I did not see a close up of the welds. 
I feel like all the hull skin should be a full penetration. You would get around this with lap joints or if your hull plates ends land on the ribs. Then you have a backing joint that can have its own set of problems. 
I brought up this welder qualification because like the Ferro- cement I think a level of skill needs to be had or you will end up with a pile of junk. 
Good day, Lou


----------



## outbound

Built my boat through anchor yachts . Josh is a good guy. He sells waterline as well. Now that's a proper steel yacht. By the way pages 9 through 12 on the outbound section is my boat(grin).


----------



## Brent Swain

For one slow typing guy, with an hour or two internet access every couple of days, to keep up with a whole gang, with nothing better to do, would take many 8 hour days to do.
I'll do what I can, when I feel like it, but there is no way your guys are worth wasting any more time than I feel like spending . People who matter get it, the rest never will, and don't matter.
Spent yesterday, visiting very grateful clients, and solving their problems with simple , affordable solutions .A day well spent, and thoroughly enjoyed. 
Going scrapyard scrounging tomorrow. May get time for the internet, then again, may not. Then I'm going goat hunting, where there is no internet .
Will I be wishing I was at a computer answering questions, by cynics trying to waste my cruising time? Not a chance!


----------



## bobperry

More BS from BS. It never ends. He shirks direct questions like identifying quotes.
When he says "hunting" he means dumpster diving.

Me? I'm making chili. I am happy to answer any and all questions about my chili. My secrets are lots of red wine, red wine vinegar and black molasses.

Then I will go swimming.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Built my boat through anchor yachts . Josh is a good guy. He sells waterline as well. Now that's a proper steel yacht. By the way pages 9 through 12 on the outbound section is my boat(grin).


Waterlines are excellent boats, very well built. Are they still building them?
A quarter million dollars is nothing to the rich , but they offer no advantage to those who are not rich, and would take away a huge chunk of any average cruiser's cruising fund, doing nothing to improve the cruising experience, which would justify giving up so much of it. 
Are they in any way ,functionally better cruising boats than the ones my clients build? Not a chance!

Good swimming just up the road here. I took a couple of USanian clients to the public pool here a while back. Full use of the pool, weight room , saunas and hot tub cost under $4 each. They said in the US you would have to be rich to enjoy such facilities. Only the rich could do it. I told them public access to such facilities is a thing called "Socialism", a swear word in their country. We pay for it out of money saved by not having a huge military budget.


----------



## bobperry

I just walk through one of the doors to my indoor pool. I heat it to 85 degs and that works fine. Everyone should have their own indoor pool. Amazing what hard work and succes will bring you.

We have Christmas lights strung up over the pool now. It's kind of pretty. We have an all glass roof to it so it's a pleasant environment. Bathing suits are optional. I think I have one, somewhere.

I really don't need the goverment to pay for any of it. I pay for it. I like it that way.

Have to go stir/ ster/stur my chili. (still can't spell)
No worries, BS will be back with more of his profundity.


----------



## Brent Swain

Lou452 said:


> I have a number of years in the welding trade, I have my own idea of what a good weld is and what is good enough. I have no boat building experience . Doing is so much different than abstract.
> I would like to ask in the hull skin is it a full penetration weld ? What is the preferred method. What is the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, In theory all methods can be successful.
> Next how are the welders tested. After the welders are tested the machines checked, records I assume are made. Then what testing is done to insure finished quality ?
> We can have a good or ok hull material but the construction methods need to be up to snuff .
> I have a belief that the Ferro - Cement hulls faced doom because the skill need to build was grossly under estimated. This lead to unsafe conditions. The speed performance was also less than expected. I think people will make an allowance for slow and underperformance and live with a hull that keeps them safe. Safety is high performance.
> Good Day, Lou


All our welds are full penetration. The chine and centreline edges come together at an angle, leaving a wide open, roughly 25 degree angle to fill. Weld the inside then gouge out the slag from the outside, to clean metal showing no cracks , before filling it. The last boat we ground a 1/16th inch 45 degree angle on the joining corners, which wont stop full penetration, but made welding, without blowing thru , much easier.

I would not want a pool at the expense of someone else's cruising dreams. Their success is mine.


----------



## outbound

Brent I think would be unlikely your clients wouldn't trade their boat a a heartbeat for a waterline if offered. I also think having all the comforts you eschew markly enhances the cruising experience. If you do not I'm afraid Bob is correct you are delusional. 
I agree the sun shines on us all the same but it's sure nice to run the A.C. and have ice in your drink when it shines too bright.


----------



## Lou452

I may want to build a dingy someday. I first need to figure out what I want. This thinking about what I want has been going on for at least a year. It is sidetracked with I already have boats to sail. Sailing is better than building. The shear number of boats that have been built and engineered is amazing ! As I learn my taste change. 
I would love to have Bob or PCP and others help and they have already. Even the late wolf will not be forgotten. I do not think I will ever go for a full keel but who can know for sure ? I can not settle on what I want, only what I know I do not. A dingy is a learning teaching craft.
Ferro-Cement :laugher It would be a one of a kind. 
Steal: I think will just be to heavy.
Aluminum : might have a chance I have not eliminated it.
Wood : has a slight chance Glen L has some good construction tips and boats
Fiberglass; It would seem to be at the top of my list.
Other; what else is a possibility ? My $ and my ability and time have limits. 
The rig and sails will be from an FJ 
Just a fun post, Lou


----------



## outbound

Friend of my father in law built a steel 55 foot trawler. Took it from n.e. to FLA lived on it a couple of years then sold it. Said he had just as much fun building it as using it. Another friend did up tooling for a38 foot pilot house cutter. Had a small production run. Just enough to defray cost of mold. Went off sailing. Came back and said developing the boat was just as much fun as sailing. In short from what I've seen unless the building is great fun for you ( and it can be) go work,save and then get a boat.
Personally I like woodworking and enjoy building furniture. When my sailing days are over can see myself building small craft. Probably cold molded kayaks,shells and such. Maybe some stitch n glue to start. But like you sailing is too much fun and time is too short.


----------



## Lou452

I would love to build. Like you said time is short. I also like to sail and some other things pull at the short time we have. It is not always how good one is... it is how much fun can be had. A pro can play a game and have a bad time and a kid can have the best time, Lets all be like kids for 2014
Best wishes, Lou


----------



## bobperry

My pool and someone else's cruising dreams have nothing in common.
What a bizarre thing to say.

The sign of a very feeble mind.


----------



## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> You claim that a batten out in the open ,attached to nothing behaves the same as a longitudinal welded and contained inside a steel hull, and you accuse me of failing to understand basic engineering principles ? I have explained the principles time and time again , but each time it goes right over your head. So I'll try one more time , not for Mike , ( he'll never get it) but for other readers. When you weld a longitudinal to a flat plate, then curve the plate, it puts the longitudinal under compression, the inside becoming shorter than the outside . No, increased outward pressure doesn't reduce the ability for it to resist inward pressure. When you put pressure on the hull, and longitudinal , from the outside, the only way it can give, is for the ends to move along the plate, to which it is welded. You have suggested that it bulges outwards, which would require small angle iron compressed on end, to stretch several feet of 3/16th plate at 11,250 lbs per linear inch tensile strength. The ends are fully supported by the plate they are welded to, and the curves, which they in turn maintain.. To do that, it would have to diagonally stretch 3/16h plate, with a tensile strength of 11, 250 lbs per linear inch, 3 ft of it in the topsides.
> The other is for the longitudinals to buckle. With a weld every 4 inches which has more metal than the cross section of the longitudinal, you would have to bend it in 4 inch increments, in a span of 4 inches, supported by the ends, which continue to be supported by big welds a quarter way up the leg of the angle . You would also have to twist the 3/8th by 1 inch angles . So give us your estimate of what it would take to bend the inside flange of 3/8th by 1 inch angle in a 4 inch span, then the leg, 5/8th by 3/8th angle again in a 4 inch span, held to the plate by a weld halfway up the leg. Not by direct pressure, but by pressure at 90 degrees to the direction of the bend. Add to that the support of the rest of the angle, far beyond the bends.
> Or perhaps you could explain how you get pressure on the end of an angle, to stretch 3/16th plate , 3 or more feet of it, at a tensile strength of 11,250 lbs per linear inch.
> Span is the amount of curve it takes to support the angle ,which in turn supports the curve. It is not an angle standing alone, attached to nothing, which you imply, as I point out above.
> I remember the Joshua style boats, which Moitessier, Patrick Van God, and others, proved beyond all reasonable doubt. They had only transverse frames, which looked like 2 inch by 1/4 inch flatbar frames, ..........................


Give a man enough rope ! 

What I indicated was that if your proposed revolutionary theory was valid then it's applicable to a simple beam too. All I did was show you a comparison between two beams, one bent within it's elastic limit as in your building method and one that was formed with no pre stress whatsoever. 
Under load the beam with the 'Brent pre stress arc' was less able to withstand a point load. All you were supposed to take away from that is that your structural argument is a fallacy. It's as valid for a beam section as it is for a hull structure when considering local panel loads. 
The other situation which is far stronger is for the inner structure to be in tension rather than either neutral or compression. That is otherwise known as a 'pre-tensioned'. That's stronger again. Your method puts the pre-tensioned bit in pre compression, what that means is that it assists the arc in straightening out rather than resisting it. Your arguments are inside out, and simply wrong. You were claiming all over the place that it was a structural arch but that was also shown to be a complete fallacy.

So again your 36 footers are apparently strong enough but they dent easily and with large dents under relatively low level impacts than they should, so they are not tough in that regard. But for everyone's sake, before you start promoting 60 foot versions of your boat, go ask anyone with a bit of real structural knowledge. Try and find anyone other than you that thinks this is a valid argument. Even load test a structure yourself.

Importantly and sounding like a broken record &#8230;.Your method doesn't make your boats stronger, it makes them weaker than they could be and more prone to large denting from point load. For real strength the plate should become a diaphragm under load so that it is in tension and that takes adequate framing. 
And again: You just don't understand buckling at all it's got nothing to do with tensile or compressive material properties nor the tripping of the stiffeners, it's about 'snap-through' instability of the hull.

As for denting 5 or 6mm plate with either a sledge or a pick next to a frame you are deluded if you think you could put a hole in a hull with either. And as I said where are these properly framed boats that holed so easily? They are just in your imagination, it's just not a valid observation. 
I also said grillage can yield before the plate ruptures which is why ****** didn't have any holes in her plate. ****** was also extensively transversely framed. And you use the ****** example for your own ends at times so she is a good example of how transverse framing keeps the plate in place so it can take stress rather than simply buckling under a far lower load which takes far less energy and is far more catastrophic.

Now lets look at rotating keels into the hull once again. This is a significant issue, you know very well there were more boats built to your own design than the tall tale with an unnamed boat, unnamed owner, and variable location.
It shows that your presumed strength from curvature didn't exist and that the supporting plate buckled easily in low speed collisions. It's a good example of intuition being wrong, no different to your intuition that your design could scale frameless to 60 feet. When in reality anything much over 40 feet would be inadequate to meet any sensible offshore design head requirements, and would be significantly prone to grounding damage.

As for Lawyers telling you your designs are safe; lets presume for a minute that is true, and the Lawyer actually said that, (which I doubt with your record). What do you think that lawyer would say if you were the designer of a 60 foot design that just killed it's crew and that expert professional witnesses were testifying that they had told you that your design was inadequate, and that your understanding of structures was abysmal ?

All the tall tales of incredible strength tend to ignore that fact that most of the boats involved were not built to your design but had more transverse framing. For example the NW passage boat you use for vindication had both thicker plate and extensive transverses not in your plans. In fact I'd suggest that most of the BS boats built have significantly more framing than shown in your plans.

Then you have the temerity to compare other designers plate first then frame construction method with your design and pretend it vindicates your design methodology. And now Joshua !

Bernard Moitessier's "Joshua" that you mention had deep floors (transverses) and closely spaced transverse frames from the floor to the deck beam which were fully 'fixed' at both ends tied into floors and deck beams ( end fixity of 1 ). So you are way off likening Joshua to your designs or saying she had minimal framing she was a very strong design.

The fact is that you made dangerous assumptions in the presumed strength of your construction method. Those assumptions are wrong. I've asked you before and I'll never get an answer becsaue you simply don't know....What head of water do you think would collapse the fore-part of your 36 footer ? How about a 60 footer ? Why is this important? Do you know?

Your stability arguments are also hype, your small steel designs are on the tender side and the best estimate of AVS is closer to 135 degrees than the 180 you initially touted. That's just a by product of using steel for small boats.


----------



## bobperry

Mike:
If you want to wade thru the Wolfenzee thread you can find Brent discussing a positive righting moment of 182 degrees. I think that's when I first realized that BS has a problem with numbers and the elements of yacht design. It was good for a chuckle though.


----------



## Watercolor

Is there any reason for not using a super tough nipple or coupler isolator between the metal standpipe and a SS or bronze ball valve on a steel or aluminum boat?


----------



## NCC320

NCC320 said:


> Brent,
> 
> Just curious. In all this discussion about steel vs. fiberglass, I don't recall you having posted a bit about your background. Sometime ago, Bob told us about his background and how he came to be a boat designer.
> 
> How did Brent Swain become a designer and builder of boats? What was your background before you got into this line of work? When did you elect to go with/or when did you develop the origami technique? When did you design your first boat, how many have you designed, and when was the last boat designed (you indicate that you are more or less retired and spend most of your time cruising, so I suspect you don't actively design boats anymore, but still are involved from time to time with aiding those who elect to build one of your designs.)? Are all of your designs the origami style? Just include anything that you think the forum might like to know. I know it's none of my business, but those of us on the forum might be interested to know these things.


Brent,

How about it? A designer who takes strong positions but won't reveal a little about his background .....well, what is one to make of that? Adds confidence in what he says?


----------



## mitiempo

Watercolor said:


> Is there any reason for not using a super tough nipple or coupler isolator between the metal standpipe and a SS or bronze ball valve on a steel or aluminum boat?


An isolator will not help as the water will be in contact with both the bronze ball valve and the hull.

A standpipe to a Marelon valve on an aluminum boat or to a stainless or Marelon valve on a steel boat is a good safe solution.


----------



## Lou452

Watercolor said:


> Is there any reason for not using a super tough nipple or coupler isolator between the metal standpipe and a SS or bronze ball valve on a steel or aluminum boat?


I will take a wild stab at this. Disclaimer I am a layman that works on the pipe. Ask A PE. A PE has gone to school and can give a real answer. 
If you have a joint full of liquid the liquid can become the conductor. Your isolation works as long as you have an air gap and no moisture. Perfect world right . :laugher Even the bolts need isolation not just the face of the flange. Any opportunity will start and spread corrosion. 
I see bronze and stainless and carbon steel mixed in many pipe systems. I think it has a lot to do with COST and how corrosive the environment is. It also has to do with how easy it is to service and what kind of mess will happen when it fails. If it happens to be a liquid /gas and corrosion can be controlled by additives and monitored it can make sense because of the COST to use valves that are more economical. Think of a boiler in a factory ( process steam ) Even the make up water needs treatment before it enters the system.
I hope some of this is good information and correct, look at my disclaimer
Good day, Lou


----------



## blt2ski

Bob,

RIgger appeared happy to see me today! Nice looking bright white mast too!

Marty


----------



## MikeJohns

bobperry said:


> Mike:
> If you want to wade thru the Wolfenzee thread you can find Brent discussing a positive righting moment of 182 degrees. I think that's when I first realized that BS has a problem with numbers and the elements of yacht design. It was good for a chuckle though.


Priceless !


----------



## MikeJohns

Lou452 said:


> I will take a wild stab at this. ........
> If you have a joint full of liquid the liquid can become the conductor. Your isolation works as long as you have an air gap and no moisture. .........


Submerged the metals must have an electrical connection outside of the electrolyte ( sea water) for galvanic corrosion to occur. You need both electron flow and ion exchange which can't happen in the electrolyte alone as they cancel out. So isolating dissimilar metals works well, but they must be completely isolated electrically.


----------



## Lou452

Ok back to the boat building, I am understanding that said boat is like a wide bowl with out any ribs ?
good day, Lou


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Spent yesterday, visiting very grateful clients...


This is really the main difference I see between BS and other designers. Most other designers' clients just need to be happy with the end result - according to those very designers.

BS' clients need to be "grateful".

Do I, as a client, want a _designer_? Or a pair of second-hand boots I need to kiss?

Hmm.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> All our welds are full penetration.


"_Our_ welds"??? Don't your clients build their own BS boats? How exactly can you claim this with "our welds" - when you have nothing to do with those welds?

And you wonder why Dove has dropped to $20K and is still not selling? Dude. Get a grip.



Brent Swain said:


> I would not want a pool at the expense of someone else's cruising dreams.


Sure - but you'll take their pension...



Brent Swain said:


> Their success is mine.


Exactly. Seems like a theme.


----------



## smackdaddy

Sloop...



smackdaddy said:


> Bushnell's Dove IV is actually one of the nicest BS Boats I've ever seen. The interior is very well done (which is rarely the case) and she appears to be immaculately maintained. She's also very well equipped with the expensive "yachty absurdities" Brent likes to continually decry.
> 
> What's sad is that this is actually the PERFECT specimen of a BS Yacht. A lot of time and money has gone into it. And yet it can only command an asking price of $56,000 (+$63 for Brent's royalty). Definitely a value problem with these boats.


^^^^^From September (Dove IV - not II...even so....)^^^^^









Dove II might not have been holed by Fukushima Debris, but it's still sinking like a hunk of steel in terms of value. Less than $20K for all the blood, sweat, and money poured into it. That's really embarrassing.

If you insist on having a steel boat (which I personally would never, ever want) - _buy this one_. _DO NOT_ build your own on the belief in BS' clearly inaccuarate claims that his boats hold their value. You will lose not only years of your life and most of your cruising kitty building one of these hulks - you will also lose your shirt when trying to sell it.

Taking into account all of the above, building a BS boat is a lose/lose proposition (Con)...unless you are a paranoid survivalist who fears Fukushima Debris like The Zombie Apocalypse (Pro).


----------



## Bob142

When a boat has a close encounter with a rocky coast which they have been known to do... A wooden boat or a pretty tupperware seem to last less then 19 minutes while a metal boat will get a dent that may be hard to buff out...Just saying...


----------



## bobperry

Bob:
You are absolutely correct. ( I think you made up the "19 minutes" part though and that hampers your credibility. 19 minutes? Really? Not 23 minutes? Could you please document where you got the 19 minutes from?) A steel boat will maintain it's watertight integrity when on the rocks longer than a grp or wooden boat. I don't think anyone had ever argued that. Speaking in very broad terms of course. But you might run into problems when you lump all steel boats together in one category. I could say the same for wood and grp boats. It's best not to generalize. Lots of variables come into play.

I still would never want a steel boat. DOVE II looks Ok but it still has all those crude details that scream "home builder" to me. That hard dodger is hideous. The single rail bow pulpit looks awkward and that brutal sharp edge on the cabin trunk has no degree of grace to it whatsoever. It appears to have no hatch over the salon. ISAF would not like that. I would not like that.

I think it's a good thing that we all like different kinds of boats. That has kept me in the design business for 46 years. I think it's also good that we all have our own reasons for our preferences. I'm not keen on other people telling me what kind of boat I should like, then calling me names because I have my own opinion.

Jejune


----------



## smackdaddy

Hey Bob...I received your very cool Christmas gift. Thank you very much! I'll take a pic of it proudly displayed on my office desk when I eventually go back to work this week-ish.

PS - I'll get you a little New Year chachke in the mail soon.


----------



## NCC320

Not sure how many people have seen this, but here is a link to the Brent Swain boat "MOM". Interesting material and presentation.

Sailing Vessel MOM

Lots of work in building this boat. Still, when it's done, it doesn't have the fine finish of a factory built boat (or if one can afford it, a one off custom boat built from fiberglass). And building quick is not a feature, at least not in this one.

No doubt when MOM and my boat collide, my fiberglass boat will be the one going to the bottom, but I still like mine better. I'll be careful not to get into such a collision. Mine looks better (in my opinion anyway). Ordered in May, delivered in Sept, fully commissioned in October, after a couple of hurricane delays.
Not a multiple year project. That counts a lot to me, and probably to lots of others.


----------



## bobperry

I have no problem with Mom. It looks fine to me. It's not what I would want but so be it.
I think they did a nice job on Mom.


----------



## outbound

Nicely executed but if I was looking at steel with need to dry out and thin water capabilities I would look at Puffins Yacht Design | Olivier van Meer Design Naval Architect. Beautiful pilot house boats. Was on a 46' on the hard in N.H. Drop dead gorgeous interior. Old boat but looked like it just came out of the shed for the first time. Very well thought out and very liveable. From what I understand Van Meer has quite a following and his boats have none of the structural issues Mike has referred to.


----------



## Faster

Spent New Year's Eve at a nearby marina, and took a dock walk looking for metal boats. Not many, but an interesting variety:



Amazon 37?




Interesting waterproofing of the deck house:



Didn't get a stern shot, but multichine aft..



And an 'ultimate' steel boat - maybe Mark's (Copacabana's) other boat?


----------



## smackdaddy

Faster said:


> Spent New Year's Eve at a nearby marina, and took a dock walk looking for metal boats. Not many, but an interesting variety:
> 
> Interesting waterproofing of the deck house:


Wait. What the hell? Steel boats don't leak Faster. That's not waterproofing. It's just to cut down on the heat from the blazing PNW sun.


----------



## MikeJohns

NCC320 said:


> .........
> 
> No doubt when MOM and my boat collide, my fiberglass boat will be the one going to the bottom, but I still like mine better. I'll be careful not to get into such a collision. ...................


If you have a heavier displacment solid GRP hull it will hold up quite well in a collision, Foam core ULDB won't.
But Mom is an interesting example, on BD net a pic was posted of her after she sat her stern down on a rock after a grounding, the resultant damage is a good example of the lack of panel support, caused simply by the boats own weight and lack of framing to distribute the load. Must have been disheartening for the owners.

Your boat would probably have survived this without damage. Steel boats can be made a lot tougher than this with a very small amount of material and a boat this size in steel should have been bomb proof. There are a lot of similar examples in Brent boats, don't let his marketing fool you into thinking they are extraordinarily tough.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Wait. What the hell? Steel boats don't leak Faster. That's not waterproofing. It's just to cut down on the heat from the blazing PNW sun.


That's a Newporter 40, a plywood boat. Some of my clients upgraded from one to a brentboat 36
That is what it takes to stop a wooden deck from leaking.


----------



## bobperry

I see Brent. In your typical intellectual, approach to the subject you are going to assume that all wooden boats have deck structures like the Newporter. And, it is Newporter, not Newport.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> I see Brent. In your typical intellectual, approach to the subject you are going to assume that all wooden boats have deck structures like the Newporter. And, it is Newporter, not Newport.


Well, customers must not mind the leaky plywood since this one is going for $80K:

Sea J II









And the far superior Dove II can't find a buyer at $20K. Oh the humanity.



Brent Swain said:


> That's a Newport 40, a plywood boat. Some of my clients upgraded from one to a brentboat 36
> That is what it takes to stop a wooden deck from leaking.


Based on the numbers, I'd call that a significant downgrade.


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> Give a man enough rope !
> 
> What I indicated was that if your proposed revolutionary theory was valid then it's applicable to a simple beam too. All I did was show you a comparison between two beams, one bent within it's elastic limit as in your building method and one that was formed with no pre stress whatsoever.
> Under load the beam with the 'Brent pre stress arc' was less able to withstand a point load. All you were supposed to take away from that is that your structural argument is a fallacy. It's as valid for a beam section as it is for a hull structure when considering local panel loads.
> The other situation which is far stronger is for the inner structure to be in tension rather than either neutral or compression. That is otherwise known as a 'pre-tensioned'. That's stronger again. Your method puts the pre-tensioned bit in pre compression, what that means is that it assists the arc in straightening out rather than resisting it. Your arguments are inside out, and simply wrong. You were claiming all over the place that it was a structural arch but that was also shown to be a complete fallacy.
> 
> So again your 36 footers are apparently strong enough but they dent easily and with large dents under relatively low level impacts than they should, so they are not tough in that regard. But for everyone's sake, before you start promoting 60 foot versions of your boat, go ask anyone with a bit of real structural knowledge. Try and find anyone other than you that thinks this is a valid argument. Even load test a structure yourself.
> 
> Importantly and sounding like a broken record &#8230;.Your method doesn't make your boats stronger, it makes them weaker than they could be and more prone to large denting from point load. For real strength the plate should become a diaphragm under load so that it is in tension and that takes adequate framing.
> And again: You just don't understand buckling at all it's got nothing to do with tensile or compressive material properties nor the tripping of the stiffeners, it's about 'snap-through' instability of the hull.
> 
> As for denting 5 or 6mm plate with either a sledge or a pick next to a frame you are deluded if you think you could put a hole in a hull with either. And as I said where are these properly framed boats that holed so easily? They are just in your imagination, it's just not a valid observation.
> I also said grillage can yield before the plate ruptures which is why ****** didn't have any holes in her plate. ****** was also extensively transversely framed. And you use the ****** example for your own ends at times so she is a good example of how transverse framing keeps the plate in place so it can take stress rather than simply buckling under a far lower load which takes far less energy and is far more catastrophic.
> 
> Now lets look at rotating keels into the hull once again. This is a significant issue, you know very well there were more boats built to your own design than the tall tale with an unnamed boat, unnamed owner, and variable location.
> It shows that your presumed strength from curvature didn't exist and that the supporting plate buckled easily in low speed collisions. It's a good example of intuition being wrong, no different to your intuition that your design could scale frameless to 60 feet. When in reality anything much over 40 feet would be inadequate to meet any sensible offshore design head requirements, and would be significantly prone to grounding damage.
> 
> As for Lawyers telling you your designs are safe; lets presume for a minute that is true, and the Lawyer actually said that, (which I doubt with your record). What do you think that lawyer would say if you were the designer of a 60 foot design that just killed it's crew and that expert professional witnesses were testifying that they had told you that your design was inadequate, and that your understanding of structures was abysmal ?
> 
> All the tall tales of incredible strength tend to ignore that fact that most of the boats involved were not built to your design but had more transverse framing. For example the NW passage boat you use for vindication had both thicker plate and extensive transverses not in your plans. In fact I'd suggest that most of the BS boats built have significantly more framing than shown in your plans.
> 
> Then you have the temerity to compare other designers plate first then frame construction method with your design and pretend it vindicates your design methodology. And now Joshua !
> 
> Bernard Moitessier's "Joshua" that you mention had deep floors (transverses) and closely spaced transverse frames from the floor to the deck beam which were fully 'fixed' at both ends tied into floors and deck beams ( end fixity of 1 ). So you are way off likening Joshua to your designs or saying she had minimal framing she was a very strong design.
> 
> The fact is that you made dangerous assumptions in the presumed strength of your construction method. Those assumptions are wrong. I've asked you before and I'll never get an answer becsaue you simply don't know....What head of water do you think would collapse the fore-part of your 36 footer ? How about a 60 footer ? Why is this important? Do you know?
> 
> Your stability arguments are also hype, your small steel designs are on the tender side and the best estimate of AVS is closer to 135 degrees than the 180 you initially touted. That's just a by product of using steel for small boats.


Initially we used to put the longitudinals in after the hull was pulled together. It took only hand pressure to push them in. Thus ""hand pressure' is something Mike considers structurally relevant in his designs. If hand pressure is relevant to the strength of his designs. then I would seek another designer, who designs with a greater safety margin. Sounds like flimsy designing to me. 
When you bend anything, the inside of the curve is under compression, the outside under tension. That is one of the most basic principles of structural engineering. Anyone who is incapable of grasping such a simple concept, is definitely no engineer, and a poor source of advice on anything pertaining to engineering. Anyone who claims that if you weld angles to the inside of a plate, then bend it in a curve, the extreme outward pressure of the angles under compression is less than "hand pressure" is definitely no engineer, and poor source of any advice on engineering. He could always weld angles to along piece of plate, leaving just enough space under them to fit his fingers in ,then have a friend crank the plate into a curve, with the angles on the inside, and his fingers under the angles ,and "feel the pressure." His fingers would be quickly amputated ! 
It would be interesting to lay an angle alongside one which has been welded inside a hull before curving it, and see if there is any difference in length.
Again, Mike compares angles welded inside a hull, with a 2 inch weld every 4 inches , before curving it to a beam out in the open, attached to nothing !
No Mike, they don't behave the same. No Mike , you cant stretch the several feet of 3/16th plate, with a tensile strength of 11250 lbs. per lineal inch , by pushing on the end of an inch by 1inch by 3/8th inch angle, welded along it.
No Mike the plate wont stretch the plates welded onto it at an angle ,at 11250 lbs per linear inch tensile strength, diagonally, which they would have to do, in order to flatten out
No Mike, a longitudinal welded to a plate is not the same as an angle laying unattached to anything, laying out in the open. The ends are as solidly supported from any longitudinal movement, as your frames ending on a keel or deck.
No Mike a longitudinal will not slide freely along a plate it is welded to with a 2 inch weld every 4 inches ,nor will it stretch the 3/16th plate diagonally.
No Mike, the first 36 I built, which pounded for 16 days on a Baja beach, just south of San Ignacio, and was pulled off thru 8 to 12 ft surf , being lifted and dropped on hard packed sand, for a quarter mile without any serious dents, did not "dent easily."
What "Head of water" does it take to match the forces of a 36 being lifted up 12 feet and dropped repeatedly on sand too hard to leave a foot print in, for a quarter mile? How does "Head of water' Equate to a sharp pint hitting a hull? It doesn't!
No Mike , Don Shores 36" Viski" which pounded across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf, while leaving Suva, and was pulled off by a tug thru similar surf, with NO serious dents did not "Dent easily." You can see this boat behind Muddy Waters pub in Nanaimo. No hull dents , just a dented bulwark, where she ran into a freighter off Gibraltar ( with no serious damage ). You can read about it in his book "Around the World on Viski" available at Harbour Chandleries in Nanaimo.
No Mike , none of my boats have extra framing, beyond what I have designed in .You know of any ?
Name one! Show us the pictures of the extra framing.

Its interesting, this ESP you claim to have, claiming you know more about what goes into a boat than the builder of 38 of them, and the designer. If you put that kind of mental telepathy to work buying your next lottery ticket, you wont have to masquerade as an engineer any more. How about giving us some winning numbers here, so we can test your claim out? We don't mind sharing that kind of winnings. 
Your drum skin theory is interesting. You could consider the support which strong points such as the chines, centreline and decks provide, far stronger than any transverse frames, as the rims of your drum. You say they don't count structurally? Then you are no engineer!
As long as there is outside curve , you have compression, not the tension in your drum skin. It t doesn't get there until it has been straightened out.
What saved ****** was she was hit with a blunt object, not a sharp point, She was also saved by those huge, fully welded steel bulkheads, called decks and bottom plate. Transverse frames parallel to the impact had zero effect . Had she been hit with a sharp point right next to the frame, the frame would have increased the odds of her holing , by giving the plate hard point to stretch against.
A transverse frame will only stop holing if the sharp point lands directly on a frame. What are the odds of that happening. If it misses the frame, it increases the odds of holing.
No, a pickaxe wont go thru 6 mm plate but will thru the 1/8th inch plate commonly used for 36 ft fully framed hulls, especially if you hit right next to a frame. Not so easily with 3/16th plate I use, with no hard point frames to stretch against.
Tad Roberts , whom I have never, met calculated the ultimate stability of my 36 at 165 degrees . Jim the Russian computer whizz, put the lines in his computer, and it gave the ultimate stability at 175 degrees, posted on the origamiboats site, which is what my model tests gave me. Two factors which gave us the ultimate stability problems , flush decks and excessive beam, my boats have neither of.
The boat with the keel problem is called "Mishar" and at last report was moored at the Airport Marina in Richmond BC. I have never met the current owner, but met the previous owner at Fanning Island, on his way to New Zealand and back to BC, a trouble free voyage. It was his second Brentboat.


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
Why do you try to discuss "engineering" when you display over and over that you have problems with numbers? I think you are free and loose with the term "engineering". Maybe "my guess is" would work better for you. You have never presented any engineering here just vague generalities.


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## smackdaddy

Brent, I've adjusted your signature:

*Brent Swain, Boat Guesser, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"*


----------



## bigdogandy

Brent Swain said:


> Initially we used to put the longitudinals in after the hull was pulled together. It took only hand pressure to push them in. Thus ""hand pressure' is something Mike considers structurally relevant in his designs. If hand pressure is relevant to the strength of his designs. then I would seek another designer, who designs with a greater safety margin. Sounds like flimsy designing to me.
> When you bend anything, the inside of the curve is under compression, the outside under tension. That is one of the most basic principles of structural engineering. Anyone who is incapable of grasping such a simple concept, is definitely no engineer, and a poor source of advice on anything pertaining to engineering. Anyone who claims that if you weld angles to the inside of a plate, then bend it in a curve, the extreme outward pressure of the angles under compression is less than "hand pressure" is definitely no engineer, and poor source of any advice on engineering. He could always weld angles to along piece of plate, leaving just enough space under them to fit his fingers in ,then have a friend crank the plate into a curve, with the angles on the inside, and his fingers under the angles ,and "feel the pressure." His fingers would be quickly amputated !
> It would be interesting to lay an angle alongside one which has been welded inside a hull before curving it, and see if there is any difference in length.
> Again, Mike compares angles welded inside a hull, with a 2 inch weld every 4 inches , before curving it to a beam out in the open, attached to nothing !
> No Mike, they don't behave the same. No Mike , you cant stretch the several feet of 3/16th plate, with a tensile strength of 11250 lbs. per lineal inch , by pushing on the end of an inch by 1inch by 3/8th inch angle, welded along it.
> No Mike, a longitudinal welded to a plate is not the same as an angle laying unattached to anything, laying out in the open. The ends are as solidly supported from any longitudinal movement, as your frames ending on a keel or deck.
> No Mike, the first 36 I built, which pounded for 16 days on a Baja beach, just south of San Ignacio, and was pulled off thru 8 to 12 ft surf , being lifted and dropped on hard packed sand, for a quarter mile without any serious dents, did not "dent easily."
> No Mike , Don Shores 36" Viski" which pounded across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf, while leaving Suva, and was pulled off by a tug thru similar surf, with NO serious dents did not "Dent easily." You can see this boat behind Muddy Waters pub in Nanaimo. No hull dents , just a dented bulwark, where she ran into a freighter off Gibraltar ( with no serious damage ). You can read about it in his book "Around the World on Viski" available at Harbour Chandleries in Nanaimo.
> No Mike , none of my boats have extra framing, beyond what I have designed in .You know of any ?
> Name one! Show us the pictures of the extra framing.
> 
> Its interesting, this ESP you claim to have, claiming you know more about what goes into a boat than the builder of 38 of them, and the designer. If you put that kind of mental telepathy to work buying your next lottery ticket, you wont have to masquerade as an engineer any more. How about giving us some winning numbers here, so we can test your claim out? We don't mind sharing that kind of winnings.
> Your drum skin theory is interesting. You could consider the support which strong points such as the chines, centreline and decks provide, far stronger than any transverse frames, as the rims of your drum. You say they don't count structurally? Then you are no engineer!












....because that makes no effin sense!


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> Give a man enough rope !
> 
> What I indicated was that if your proposed revolutionary theory was valid then it's applicable to a simple beam too. All I did was show you a comparison between two beams, one bent within it's elastic limit as in your building method and one that was formed with no pre stress whatsoever.
> Under load the beam with the 'Brent pre stress arc' was less able to withstand a point load. All you were supposed to take away from that is that your structural argument is a fallacy. It's as valid for a beam section as it is for a hull structure when considering local panel loads.
> The other situation which is far stronger is for the inner structure to be in tension rather than either neutral or compression. That is otherwise known as a 'pre-tensioned'. That's stronger again. Your method puts the pre-tensioned bit in pre compression, what that means is that it assists the arc in straightening out rather than resisting it. Your arguments are inside out, and simply wrong. You were claiming all over the place that it was a structural arch but that was also shown to be a complete fallacy.
> 
> So again your 36 footers are apparently strong enough but they dent easily and with large dents under relatively low level impacts than they should, so they are not tough in that regard. But for everyone's sake, before you start promoting 60 foot versions of your boat, go ask anyone with a bit of real structural knowledge. Try and find anyone other than you that thinks this is a valid argument. Even load test a structure yourself.
> 
> Importantly and sounding like a broken record &#8230;.Your method doesn't make your boats stronger, it makes them weaker than they could be and more prone to large denting from point load. For real strength the plate should become a diaphragm under load so that it is in tension and that takes adequate framing.
> And again: You just don't understand buckling at all it's got nothing to do with tensile or compressive material properties nor the tripping of the stiffeners, it's about 'snap-through' instability of the hull.
> 
> As for denting 5 or 6mm plate with either a sledge or a pick next to a frame you are deluded if you think you could put a hole in a hull with either. And as I said where are these properly framed boats that holed so easily? They are just in your imagination, it's just not a valid observation.
> I also said grillage can yield before the plate ruptures which is why ****** didn't have any holes in her plate. ****** was also extensively transversely framed. And you use the ****** example for your own ends at times so she is a good example of how transverse framing keeps the plate in place so it can take stress rather than simply buckling under a far lower load which takes far less energy and is far more catastrophic.
> 
> Now lets look at rotating keels into the hull once again. This is a significant issue, you know very well there were more boats built to your own design than the tall tale with an unnamed boat, unnamed owner, and variable location.
> It shows that your presumed strength from curvature didn't exist and that the supporting plate buckled easily in low speed collisions. It's a good example of intuition being wrong, no different to your intuition that your design could scale frameless to 60 feet. When in reality anything much over 40 feet would be inadequate to meet any sensible offshore design head requirements, and would be significantly prone to grounding damage.
> 
> As for Lawyers telling you your designs are safe; lets presume for a minute that is true, and the Lawyer actually said that, (which I doubt with your record). What do you think that lawyer would say if you were the designer of a 60 foot design that just killed it's crew and that expert professional witnesses were testifying that they had told you that your design was inadequate, and that your understanding of structures was abysmal ?
> 
> All the tall tales of incredible strength tend to ignore that fact that most of the boats involved were not built to your design but had more transverse framing. For example the NW passage boat you use for vindication had both thicker plate and extensive transverses not in your plans. In fact I'd suggest that most of the BS boats built have significantly more framing than shown in your plans.
> 
> Then you have the temerity to compare other designers plate first then frame construction method with your design and pretend it vindicates your design methodology. And now Joshua !
> 
> Bernard Moitessier's "Joshua" that you mention had deep floors (transverses) and closely spaced transverse frames from the floor to the deck beam which were fully 'fixed' at both ends tied into floors and deck beams ( end fixity of 1 ). So you are way off likening Joshua to your designs or saying she had minimal framing she was a very strong design.
> 
> The fact is that you made dangerous assumptions in the presumed strength of your construction method. Those assumptions are wrong. I've asked you before and I'll never get an answer becsaue you simply don't know....What head of water do you think would collapse the fore-part of your 36 footer ? How about a 60 footer ? Why is this important? Do you know?
> 
> Your stability arguments are also hype, your small steel designs are on the tender side and the best estimate of AVS is closer to 135 degrees than the 180 you initially touted. That's just a by product of using steel for small boats.


Initially we used to put the longitudinals in after the hull was pulled together. It took only hand pressure to push them in. Thus ""hand pressure' is something Mike considers structurally relevant in his designs. If hand pressure is relevant to the strength of his designs. then I would seek another designer, who designs with a greater safety margin. Sounds like flimsy designing to me. 
When you bend anything, the inside of the curve is under compression, the outside under tension. That is one of the most basic principles of structural engineering. Anyone who is incapable of grasping such a simple concept, is definitely no engineer, and a poor source of advice on anything pertaining to engineering. Anyone who claims that if you weld angles to the inside of a plate, then bend it in a curve, the extreme outward pressure of the angles under compression is less than "hand pressure" is definitely no engineer, and poor source of any advice on engineering. He could always weld angles to along piece of plate, leaving just enough space under them to fit his fingers in ,then have a friend crank the plate into a curve, with the angles on the inside, and his fingers under the angles ,and "feel the pressure." His fingers would be quickly amputated ! 
It would be interesting to lay an angle alongside one which has been welded inside a hull before curving it, and see if there is any difference in length.
Again, Mike compares angles welded inside a hull, with a 2 inch weld every 4 inches , before curving it to a beam out in the open, attached to nothing !
No Mike, they don't behave the same. No Mike , you cant stretch the several feet of 3/16th plate, with a tensile strength of 11250 lbs. per lineal inch , by pushing on the end of an inch by 1inch by 3/8th inch angle, welded along it.
No Mike, a longitudinal welded to a plate is not the same as an angle laying unattached to anything, laying out in the open. The ends are as solidly supported from any longitudinal movement, as your frames ending on a keel or deck.


----------



## Brent Swain

Just had a lot more typing deleted when I tried to post it. Frustrating! Must continually go from post to edit.


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## bobperry

Nobody is censoring you Brent. You are entertaining. We like you here. You say funny things. I think it is some kind of technical problem with the site.

That happens to me too from time to time. It's quite annoying after 10 minutes of typing. You can avoid it, you really should considering how long winded your BS posts are, by typing your post in WORD then copying it and pasting it into the thread. It's easy. Little children can do it. It beats seeing all your typing dissapear. I can help you with it if you need help. I'm a whizz at this ****e.


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## outbound

Disclaimer- although I briefly went to engineering school I have no detailed knowledge of N.A. or structural engineering and unlike some admit it.
Still seem to recall all metals have thermal expansion and contraction issues. Although of greater degree in Al still operative in Fe. This is one reason framing in metal boats allowed to " float". Also seem to recall allowance for thermal effects is incorporated into design of attached framing such as at watertight bulkheads.
Seem to recall metal around welds and welds asked to handle load cycles generated by thermal effects are more likely to fail.
Also recall t or angle framing cut and welded to allow curve is much stronger than simple framing bent to curve.
Wonder how above issues impact on Brent boats.


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Disclaimer- although I briefly went to engineering school I have no detailed knowledge of N.A. or structural engineering and unlike some admit it.
> Still seem to recall all metals have thermal expansion and contraction issues. Although of greater degree in Al still operative in Fe. This is one reason framing in metal boats allowed to " float". Also seem to recall allowance for thermal effects is incorporated into design of attached framing such as at watertight bulkheads.
> Seem to recall metal around welds and welds asked to handle load cycles generated by thermal effects are more likely to fail.
> Also recall t or angle framing cut and welded to allow curve is much stronger than simple framing bent to curve.
> Wonder how above issues impact on Brent boats.


I asked my 91 year old father, a steam engineer most of his adult life , how much a hot exhaust pipe will expand when heated . He said " At 1500 degrees , a quarter inch in 15 feet."
It is not an issue on finished boats , but weld shrinkage while building is. That is why the roughest framed boats are those in which all plating was first attached to frames before doing the long seam welding, and the fairest are those in which the longitudinals are left to float free from the frames while the long welds are done, and only attached to the frames after the welding is done. Shrinkage from chine welds will lift the plate off the frames, sometimes by over an inch, in a beautiful ,slightly compound curve, if you let it.
If the plate is first welded to the frames, it cant move ,the edges shrink anyway and you get an oil canned , hungry horse look. 
Welding the plate to longitudinals before final welding of long seams has no negative effect on distortion, but helps avoid distortion.
With frameless, the plate is free to move, and welding is far more forgiving. More shrinkage simply means more beautifully fair, compound curve. I have seen an inch and a quarter of compound curve between the chine and the sheer.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Brent:
> Why do you try to discuss "engineering" when you display over and over that you have problems with numbers? I think you are free and loose with the term "engineering". Maybe "my guess is" would work better for you. You have never presented any engineering here just vague generalities.


Engineering is the judicious application of logic, which I have given plenty of. No I don't need a computer or engineering degree to figure out if a 4X4 is stronger than a 2x4. Obviously, some do. I am frequently reminded here of the time I made a purchase in a drug store ,which came to $3.25. I gave the cashier $5.25,and she ran off to find her pocket calculator. She is what I call the " Mikey Generation." No logic allowed, just numbers juggling.
Without logic, engineering is nothing.


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## SloopJonB

Brent, if you presented your ideas minus all the anger, contemptuousness and attack mode you would probably find they get a better reception.

Just a thought.

And by the way, you never answered about the lifetime contributions to the CPP/OAS you are looking forward to collecting.


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> "_Our_ welds"??? Don't your clients build their own BS boats? How exactly can you claim this with "our welds" - when you have nothing to do with those welds?
> 
> And you wonder why Dove has dropped to $20K and is still not selling? Dude. Get a grip.
> 
> Sure - but you'll take their pension...
> 
> Exactly. Seems like a theme.


When I sold my last boat in 1987, boats were selling a lot more quickly than they are today, for a lot more money. According to an article I read in Pacific Yachting at the time, the average time it took back then to sell a sailboat was 2 years. That's roughly how long it took me to sell mine, to a guy who has since built his second brentboat ,and crossed the Pacific twice in her.
Now they are giving away plastic boats, and grinding them up to make concrete reinforcement. A friend was offered an Alberg 35 for free in Mexico.
Does that mean the standard price for an Alberg is now zero? A guy on Lasquetti Island was given a good Rawson 30 for free. Does that mean, from this point on ,the value of a Rawson 30 is now zero?
Winston l told me that there is no way he is giving his boat away. He said $47 K period .If no one will give me that, then my daughter will inherit her. I just that he has sold her, to a California couple ,for $47K.
Steve ,get a grip! You have just bought your second sailing version of an Edsel. You are definitely not a good source of boat buying advice.


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## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> Brent, if you presented your ideas minus all the anger, contemptuousness and attack mode you would probably find they get a better reception.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> And by the way, you never answered about the lifetime contributions to the CPP/OAS you are looking forward to collecting.


I only attack when I am being attacked . I have a right to respond in kind. I am definitely not a fan of Neville Chamberlain's approach. Where would we be today if we had taken his advice?
The average car in BC is subsidised to the tune of $2500 a year( cost of highways above gas taxes etc. Having never owned a car, I have not taken that subsidy. I have paid GST, HST manufacturing taxes, fuel taxes, sales taxes, etc. my entire life. No one takes my garbage from my front door, nor has delivered mail to my hatch. I am hooked to no grid and make my own energy from solar sources, and take my heating fuel from the beaches, so their oil company subsidies ( corporate charity ) don't give me full benefits. I have spent many long, unpaid , volunteer hours politically campaigning for the continuation of our social safety nets, including pensions and medicare.

The ratio of CEOs salary, to that of the average worker, has gone form 30 time to 300 times , all tax deductible as a business expense, which taxpayers have to make up for, in effect, subsidise. I have received no such subsidy. So why in hell should I feel guilty about not having had to subsidize such multi billionaires out of my pocket? My pension comes out of what Canadians call "The Mike Duffy Nutrition Fund ." Ask the nearest Canadian how that works, and if they would feel guilty about tapping in to it. 
Being aboriginal ,I think it is about time they started paying us a bit of rent, and royalties for the resources they have been stealing ( our inheritance) .They are way behind in that department. 
.


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## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> If you have a heavier displacment solid GRP hull it will hold up quite well in a collision, Foam core ULDB won't.
> But Mom is an interesting example, on BD net a pic was posted of her after she sat her stern down on a rock after a grounding, the resultant damage is a good example of the lack of panel support, caused simply by the boats own weight and lack of framing to distribute the load. Must have been disheartening for the owners.
> 
> Your boat would probably have survived this without damage. Steel boats can be made a lot tougher than this with a very small amount of material and a boat this size in steel should have been bomb proof. There are a lot of similar examples in Brent boats, don't let his marketing fool you into thinking they are extraordinarily tough.


MOM dried out next to me last summer . Zero damage!


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## SloopJonB

So that would be "I never contributed and I'm playing the "part Aboriginal entitlement" card"?"

In other words, the rest of us get to support you.

I must be prescient - I had that one figured to the last detail.

How about this - on your 65th birthday you up anchor and sail off to the South Seas - permanently.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> When I sold my last boat in 1987, boats were selling a lot more quickly than they are today, for a lot more money. According to an article I read in Pacific Yachting at the time, the average time it took back then to sell a sailboat was 2 years. That's roughly how long it took me to sell mine, to a guy who has since built his second brentboat ,and crossed the Pacific twice in her.
> Now they are giving away plastic boats, and grinding them up to make concrete reinforcement. A friend was offered an Alberg 35 for free in Mexico.
> Does that mean the standard price for an Alberg is now zero? A guy on Lasquetti Island was given a good Rawson 30 for free. Does that mean, from this point on ,the value of a Rawson 30 is now zero?
> Winston l told me that there is no way he is giving his boat away. He said $47 K period .If no one will give me that, then my daughter will inherit her. I just that he has sold her, to a California couple ,for $47K.
> Steve ,get a grip! You have just bought your second sailing version of an Edsel. You are definitely not a good source of boat buying advice.


So the "our welds" thing was just more dishonesty. Okay, I get it.

Your friends seem to tell you a lot of things that end up being untrue. The ad for Dove II said $20K. Deal with it. And if you're talking about Dove IV - the $47K is down from almost $60K he was asking a few months ago...and far less than he actually has into it money-wise (not even to mention time-wise).

So, yet again, your repeated claims that your boats hold their value is flat wrong. Building a Brent Boat is clearly just about the worst investment of time and money one could possibly make. That just the truth as shown by the market.

I'll keep enjoying my Edsel while you keep trying to find more suckers.


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Well, customers must not mind the leaky plywood since this one is going for $80K:
> 
> Sea J II
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the far superior Dove II can't find a buyer at $20K. Oh the humanity.
> 
> Based on the numbers, I'd call that a significant downgrade.


A lot of Edsels were sold too. How is yours running, Steve? Must have been a great car, according to your theory! Is that why the last two boats you have bought have been the sailing equivalent to Edsels?
A plywood boat better than a steel one? Ya sure Steve!
Try tell my clients that. Especially the offshore experienced ones.They would fall over laughing.

The number of humans who think for themselves, is clearly a small percentage of the total. Most just follow!


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> A lot of Edsels were sold too. How is yours running, Steve? Must have been a great car, according to your theory! Is that why the last two boats you have bought have been the sailing equivalent to Edsels?
> A plywood boat better than a steel one? Ya sure Steve!
> Try tell my clients that. Especially the offshore experienced ones.They would fall over laughing.
> 
> The number of humans who think for themselves, is clearly a small percentage of the total. Most just follow!


Well, let's see...I suppose I have a choice (as always):

1. Follow the advancements of the best boat designers in the world and choose my own boat from the myriad modern choices out there - and be able to immediately sail and eventually recoup a good portion of my initial investment.
2. Follow the ravings of a bitter, less-than-honest old dude in an antiquated floating steel bunker who insists you have to have a steel bunker like his to be happy - and lose years of my life breathing welding fumes from planet-raping steel then lose my shirt when I have to give the thing away because no one wants it.

Hmmm. I'll take Door Number One.


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> So the "our welds" thing was just more dishonesty. Okay, I get it.
> 
> Your friends seem to tell you a lot of things that end up being untrue. The ad for Dove II said $20K. Deal with it. And if you're talking about Dove IV - the $47K is down from almost $60K he was asking a few months ago...and far less than he actually has into it money-wise (not even to mention time-wise).
> 
> So, yet again, your repeated claims that your boats hold their value is flat wrong. Building a Brent Boat is clearly just about the worst investment of time and money one could possibly make. That just the truth as shown by the market.
> 
> I'll keep enjoying my Edsel while you keep trying to find more suckers.


Winston told me last summer he had $35 K into Dove IV. He had $17 K in Dove 2 by the time he headed for Hawaii in her. That is far more than any of my boats has ever cost me. He sold her for $65K . Jack Carson sold his brentboat 36 after doing a circumnavigation in her, around the same time, for $65K. Shinola, another 36 I built, sold for $95 K a few years ago.
I've never owned a planet raping car, never owned a planet raping house, heated with coal generated electricity, freeways were never built for my vehicles, neither the Exon Valdes nor the Gulf oil spill were subsidised by my meagre needs. 
Friends who tried living in leaky,condensation dripping plastic boats, are extremely relieved to finally get aboard the supreme comfort of their first brentboat. They tell me it is the most comfortable dwelling they have every lived in.
Don't get your information on how to get off the treadmill from someone who ha s never accomplished it, or took a lifetime to accomplish it. The rat race is designed to stop the rats from ever getting off the wheel.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Winston told me last summer he had $35 K into Dove IV. He had $17 K in Dove 2 by the time he headed for Hawaii in her. He sold her for $65K . Jack Carson sold his brentboat 36 after doing a circumnavigation in her, around the same time, for $65K. Shinola, another 36 I built, sold for $95 K a few years ago.


Judging by these numbers, I'm starting to think your friends think you're really gullible.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Well, let's see...I suppose I have a choice (as always):
> 
> 1. Follow the advancements of the best boat designers in the world and choose my own boat from the myriad modern choices out there - and be able to immediately sail and eventually recoup a good portion of my initial investment.
> 2. Follow the ravings of a bitter old dude in an antiquated floating steel bunker who insists you have to have a steel bunker like his to be happy - and lose years of my life breathing welding fumes from planet-raping steel then lose my shirt when I have to give the thing away because no one wants it.
> 
> Hmmm. I'll take Door Number One.


I'm a happy old dude who wouldn't change places with anyone else on the planet. Shooting down your naïve , inexperienced arguments, with hands on experience , decades of it, is like shooting ducks off a fence. Great sport!
Sold my last boat for over 4 times what she cost me, to a very happy owner who chose one of mine for his next boat. Haven't had any worry about money since.


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## SloopJonB

Why not, when you're getting a virtually free ride on the backs of the rest of us?

And just by the by Brent, I very much doubt you have ever paid much (or any) GST/PST/FIT/PIT or any other taxes - I'm sure you had your steel and everything else of consequence delivered to the Res so they wouldn't apply, just like every other full or part aboriginal I've ever known.

And of course none of that stuff was delivered by planet raping trucks over planet raping roads and you've never spent a day in hospital or at the Doctor (that the rest of us paid for) - have you? Apparently you DIDN'T use the school system so that's a point in your favour.

I was born here too and I've lived here as long as you (and contributed) so spare me the deep soul "Aboriginal" bit Brent. You're about as "aboriginal" as those MaKah with their .50 Cal. harpoon guns on 300 Hp. Zodiacs and their oh so spiritual whale hunt. The fact that your grandaddy or 2nd uncle was aboriginal doesn't entitle you - it simply means you're just another mooch living off the efforts of others.

Cheez, I must be physic! :laugher


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## Brent Swain

I've paid as high a percentage of my spending on sales taxes as anyone else. If you want to talk about mooches, take a look a those making the laws giving themselves up to 52% wage rises to enhance the greed factor in order to get "Good people"into politics, and the obscenely wealthy friends they force the rest of us to subsidize.
Never built a boat on a rez.
If some one stole your inheritance , what was willed to you, I'm sure you would be content if they only gave back a small portion to you, as to give you back the works would be "Unfair".
Ya, sure you would , just as sure as if the grossly overpaid and wasteful government was offering you money, you would turn it down.
Ya, sure you would .
Man, what a crock!


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I'm a happy old dude who wouldn't change places with anyone else on the planet.


Well, I really hope so Brent. That would be cool.

(PS - what exactly is your percentage of Abor? My GG-Grandmother was Cherokee.)


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## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> If some one stole your inheritance , what was willed to you, I'm sure you would be content if they only gave back a small portion to you, as to give you back the works would be "Unfair".


The difference is - MY inheritance is what my parents built and left.

I don't regard the whole freakin' COUNTRY as "my" inheritance.


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## bobperry

Hey Smacks, my wife Jill's GG grandfather was Cherokee. He was an Oklahoma Territory sheriff. I have a photo of him taken in 1901 with the other sheriffs. It's a classic photo. They are all wearing three piece suits and cowboy hats while looking very sheriffy.

"I'm a happy old dude who wouldn't change places with anyone else on the planet."
Gee whizz BS, you sound miserable and very angry most of the time, constantly whining and venting spleen about all number of things.


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## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Hey Smacks, my wife Jill's GG grandfather was Cherokee. He was an Oklahoma Territory sheriff. I have a photo of him taken in 1901 with the other sheriffs. It's a classic photo. They are all wearing three piece suits and cowboy hats while looking very sheriffy.
> 
> "I'm a happy old dude who wouldn't change places with anyone else on the planet."
> Gee whizz BS, you sound miserable and very angry most of the time, constantly whining and venting spleen about all number of things.


Wow, I wonder if they knew each other? My grandfather's family came out of the Oklahoma Territory as well. My G-Grandfather owned a trading post and pool hall there, sold some land to Jesse James (we have a letter from him), and generally whooped it up.


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## bobperry

Smacks:
From the look of Jill's GG grandfather in the photo, he does not loolk like a whooper. He is the only native American in the photo, smoking a corn cob pipe and scowling. There is one black sheriff and he is standing off to the side of the group. Jill's brother inherited the six gun. Jill inherited one of his pipes. and I have that in my collection. Jill's Mom is very avid into her ancestry, she is connected to the Stetson family of hat fame, but when she confronted some of her relatives in Oklahoma they apparently were not keen on discussing that side of the family. Jill is going to visit her Mom today and she will ask about it. Jill's mom is a cousin of Adam West aka Bill Anderson aka Batman.
So I got that going for me.


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## smackdaddy

That side of my family are the McCulloughs. This mix of Cherokee and Scot explains my general scrappiness, predilection for blue face paint, and Outacite eyes.

I wonder why Brent won't give any details on his background? From his pics he looks much more European than Abor.


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## bobperry

Smack:
I don't believe a word of what BS says. The guy has an honesty issue. He sure as hell does not look like an Abo to me. I live on a reservation. I have a pretty good idea what the PNW natives look like. But you never know. Ran into a strikingly attractive gal at the bank once and I just had to ask her what her ethnicity was. She was half Eskimo and half Irish. It worked.


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## jak3b

I took some inspiration from Brent.I am half Irish so I wrote the British government and demanded they send me 4000 pounds a month for life for the occupation, oppression, and genocide they brought upon the Irish, my people.I am half English so I wrote the Irish government and demanded 4000 euro a month for life for all the destruction of property, mayhem and stress the Irish brought upon my the English, my people.I am sure the Germans owe me something to as well as The Russions....the Chinese.........


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## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Smack:
> I don't believe a word of what BS says. The guy has an honesty issue. He sure as hell does not look like an Abo to me. I live on a reservation. I have a pretty good idea what the PNW natives look like. But you never know. Ran into a strikingly attractive gal at the bank once and I just had to ask her what her ethnicity was. She was half Eskimo and half Irish. It worked.


1/2 brown & 1/2 white usually works incredibly well. As Russell Peters said - in a few generations the whole world is going to be beige. Actually, judging by some of the kids in Vancouver, I'd say 1/2 brown, 1/2 white and 1/2 Asian is the best mix - there are some absolutely breathtakingly beautiful kids here.

Robert E. Lee is an ancestor of mine - do you think I'm entitled to some compensation for the War of Northern Aggression?


----------



## smackdaddy

jak3b said:


> I took some inspiration from Brent.I am half Irish so I wrote the British government and demanded they send me 4000 pounds a month for life for the occupation, oppression, and genocide they brought upon the Irish, my people.I am half English so I wrote the Irish government and demanded 4000 euro a month for life for all the destruction of property, mayhem and stress the Irish brought upon my the English, my people.I am sure the Germans owe me something to as well as The Russions....the Chinese.........


And don't forget the Visigoths.

Actually, you may be onto something. Brent should write a book called "How To Milk The Man". The steel boat thing is so yesterday. This could be a big hit for him and supplement that free "pension" he's about to score.


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## bobperry

The only "man" I need is me.


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## Brent Swain

I found a lot of my ancestory in a book put out by Pemmican press in Winnipeg, called "A Geneology of The First Metis Nation. It had my ancestors going back to the 1700's . I gave my dad a copy and he was up til daylight reading it. He knew a lot of the people in it including my great great grandfather born 1838 , died 1942, a buffalo hunter for 30 years. I met his son when he was 100, who grew up in Dumont's buffalo camps in the Cypress hills.
My Grandmothers mother was Cree her grandfather was Norwegian. We have geneology of the Norwegian connection going back to King Halvdan the Black year 722.
Library's closing.


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## SloopJonB

Interesting. Certainly means you're entitled to have the rest of us support you in your old age. 

By the way Brent, any supposed genealogy that predates the Domesday book in 1086 is complete bull$hit. That was the first recorded census of any kind in Europe - there are no records of anyone other than royalty prior to that, so any supposed family connections that predate that are supposition or old wives tales. Even the Domesday book was only prominent people, not common serfs.


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## bobperry

That's the BS part we have come to expect. 

But give BS a break. He admits to having a problem with numbers.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I found a lot of my ancestory in a book put out by Pemmican press in Winnipeg, called "A Geneology of The First Metis Nation. It had my ancestors going back to the 1700's . I gave my dad a copy and he was up til daylight reading it. He knew a lot of the people in it including my great great grandfather born 1838 , died 1942, a buffalo hunter for 30 years. I met his son when he was 100, who grew up in Dumont's buffalo camps in the Cypress hills.
> My Grandmothers mother was Cree her grandfather was Norwegian. We have geneology of the Norwegian connection going back to King Halvdan the Black year 722.
> Library's closing.


Ah, so you're really no more "aboriginal" than I am. Oh well, makes a good story, eh?

Let's raise a glass to all us European/Third Nation Mutts!


----------



## blt2ski

I'm feeling a little left out of all this, IRish/scotch came here in the 1850's 4 generations back, nothing aborig in that line. Dads mother was born in wales...........

His dad goes back in the states to the mid 1700's......again nothing with abo's.......then to germany......we think......altho spelling of last name is english not the german manner as in Eddie Bauer.......

Not sure about mom's dad, other than no one liked him. Altho may have been 1st generation born here from germans also.........hmmmmmmm......

So does being 2nd gneration born here in the NW count for anything?!?!?!? yeah, thought so....damg it!

Marty


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## smackdaddy

Dude - I'm related to Adam...the _TRUE_ Aboriginal.

Beat that!


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## SloopJonB

The whole aboriginal "claims" thing amuses me. Since the human race didn't arise in North America, we are ALL immigrants. Where does one draw the line re: "My ancestors were here before your ancestors so I'm entitled and you aren't"?

Are the French immigrants more entitled than other Euro immigrants? They were here first. Are the English immigrants more entitled than the Russian?

Or does it only count if it was before anyone here could write?


----------



## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> The whole aboriginal "claims" thing amuses me. Since the human race didn't arise in North America, we are ALL immigrants. Where does one draw the line re: "My ancestors were here before your ancestors so I'm entitled and you aren't"?
> 
> Are the French immigrants more entitled than other Euro immigrants? They were here first. Are the English immigrants more entitled than the Russian?
> 
> Or does it only count if it was before anyone here could write?


Simple - if you can use it to milk some cash/spiritual sympathy/advantage out of "The Man"...use it!

It's really not that hard.

For example, I claim my relation to Adam to clean out (i.e. - "get rich from") all the Brussel Sprouts in the Midwest with the US Government's blessing...thereby depriving the Cree of their favorite veg. Take that Cree!


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## blt2ski

How much of the local grog have you all been drinking tonight?!?!?!?!?!? 

Time for bed for this young punk!................

Marty


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## bobperry

"Being aboriginal ,I think it is about time they started paying us a bit of rent," BS.
Right.

Yes, this is taking a comic turn with this BS abo thing. My wife is as much abo as BS but she never talks about "her people". I think that she thinks I am "her people". She is too far out on the branch of the family tree to qualify for any Native American benefits. But I did run accross another ciopy of the Oklahoma Sherriffs of 1907 (not 1901) photo and I will get it digitized. It's a classic shot.

Some time today, when I get back from my sushi with Violet run to Ballard, I'm going to casually mention in conversation to my wife "her people" just to see what her reaction is.

I've got it.
"How about you making dinner tonight dear?"
" Fine, what would you like for dinner?"
"Oh, I dunno. How about a dish typical of what your people eat."

I can tell you now I'm going to get macaronni and cheese.


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## djodenda

bobperry said:


> "Being aboriginal ,I think it is about time they started paying us a bit of rent," BS.
> Right.
> 
> Yes, this is taking a comic turn with this BS abo thing. My wife is as much abo as BS but she never talks about "her people". I think that she thinks I am "her people". She is too far out on the branch of the family tree to qualify for any Native American benefits. But I did run accross another ciopy of the Oklahoma Sherriffs of 1907 (not 1901) photo and I will get it digitized. It's a classic shot.
> 
> Some time today, when I get back from my sushi with Violet run to Ballard, I'm going to casually mention in conversation to my wife "her people" just to see what her reaction is.
> 
> I've got it.
> "How about you making dinner tonight dear?"
> " Fine, what would you like for dinner?"
> "Oh, I dunno. How about a dish typical of what your people eat."
> 
> I can tell you now I'm going to get macaronni and cheese.


Well, you never know, Bob.. you might get Oklahoma BBQ...

I miss Oklahoma BBQ..


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## bobperry

Denda:
I should be so lucky. Not sure my "Native American" wife even knows what it is.

Maybe she'll put a can of Budweiser next to the mac and cheese just for authenticity.
Bud is big on the Res.

But I'm going to Ballard for sushi with my Grandaughter today so I am happy.


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## blt2ski

Is the mast on the francis lee yet? I know the rod is there...............saw the mast in the shed..........

Marty


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## bobperry

Marty:
The mast is getting some last minute detailing. The tiller fitting is being fitted to the cf stock. We still need a cove stripe,name and hailing port. But the list is getting shorter.
As soon as the rig is up we can take the measurements for the sails. I think this could have been done from my rawings but there is a level of perfection in this project that has each of the players working to produce his best work and I'm not going to argue sails with Frank Schattaur. I'm am certain the sails will be impeccable.


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## Brent Swain

Watercolor said:


> Is there any reason for not using a super tough nipple or coupler isolator between the metal standpipe and a SS or bronze ball valve on a steel or aluminum boat?


Welded in stainless sch 40 pipe nipples, with stainless ball valves, have given me zero problems over decades. I have never met anyone who has had any problems with them, ever. I cant understand why some want to make such a simple solution as complicated as they can possibly make it .


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## Brent Swain

I could have spent the last two days here trying to respond to Bob and others. Instead I sat in my cockpit ,welding up some projects helping a friend build his composting head and mast step, , improving the stovepipe on my wood stove ,in the warm sunshine, while listening to my radio tell me it was minus 38 in Ft St John. That cold arctic air flows right down to Texas!
Had elk for super last night and for breakfast this morning.
Time well spent.


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## bobperry

"I could have spent the last two days here trying to respond to Bob and others."
That's OK Brent. I have had enough of your BS for a while. But I can wait. I have a good boook going.


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## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Had elk for super last night and for breakfast this morning.


I'm confused Brent - are you trying to make us envious or feel sorry for you?


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## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> I'm confused Brent - are you trying to make us envious or feel sorry for you?


I always wonder the same thing when he says stuff like that. I will say I'm pretty much never envious when I read it.


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## desert rat

Elk is my favorite meat. Have a steak for me. Wild onions and mushroom sautea in red wine.
Check out new already in trouble, steel boat input needed.


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## Brent Swain

NCC320 said:


> Brent,
> 
> Just curious. In all this discussion about steel vs. fiberglass, I don't recall you having posted a bit about your background. Sometime ago, Bob told us about his background and how he came to be a boat designer.
> 
> How did Brent Swain become a designer and builder of boats? What was your background before you got into this line of work? When did you elect to go with/or when did you develop the origami technique? When did you design your first boat, how many have you designed, and when was the last boat designed (you indicate that you are more or less retired and spend most of your time cruising, so I suspect you don't actively design boats anymore, but still are involved from time to time with aiding those who elect to build one of your designs.)? Are all of your designs the origami style? Just include anything that you think the forum might like to know. I know it's none of my business, but those of us on the forum might be interested to know these things.
> 
> And a couple of comments not particularly related to the questions above. It appears to me that you are not active in boat design currently (being retired/cruising) while Bob is still quite active in the business. A couple of times, you mentioned $150/hr. and high prices that designers (Bob?) charge. Just an idle comment, but I suspect Bob gets more than that since he is at the top of the design world. And why shouldn't he get a high fee? He offers a service and his clients appear happy to pay that fee in return for what they get. Looks like a win-win situation to me.


When I graduated, I began working in steel shops, first as a labourer then as a specilalist, on the brake presss , section rolls, plate rolls, and other machinery. This gave me good, hands on experince on what works on steel and what doesnt, and how steel behaves when worked. During that time I bought a 36 ft ferro cement hul and finished her. She had a short keel with rudder attached. With my zero experinence, I thought she would be a much better boat, with the rudder 6 feet further aft. But considering my zero experience at the time, I defered to the expertise of her "world reknown designer "a huge mistake, as time and miles would prove conclusively. I spent all my spare time reading everything I could find on Yacht design. Skenes Elements of Yacht Design, became one of my best sources, altho I learned later, he didnt understand cruising priorities, like directional stability, and solid functional gear , or the amount of gear a cruiser will carry out of necessity.( something many current desingers have no idea of ) Herreshoff's book "The Common Sense of Yacht Design" was another good source, and extremely practical. Then, after a winter cruising BC, I set sail, at the ripe old age of 23, singlehanded , for New Zealand.
I arived in New Zealand with $5 and 5 lbs of rice. Luckily there was a labour shortage there ( bus scab wages)
I hired on as a labourer at a steel fabricating shop, and at much lower wages I found myself advising thenm on simple solutions to problems which were baffling them which I would quickly come up with simpe solutions to. It clearly showed me the uselessness of the qualifications they had. I decided then and there not to underestimate what I could do.
At that time Ganly's Snowbird was featured in Sea Spray magazine, a 30 footer made of 3/16th plate. One thing which had limited my interest insteel was the myth that it had to be 1/8th inch plate . My fero hul was far heavier than 3/16ht plate ,and except for her lack of directional stability and her rudder being in the wrong place, she sailed fine.
After cruising up thru the western Pacific, I lost that ferro boat in Fiji, when she broke loose from a mooring. Had she been steel, she would have suffered zero damage in the same conditions.
So I left all th egear off her at a shipping agenbty and flew home to build the steel boat I had been designing. I took my drawings to Stan Huntingford ,a highly respoected local designer. The first thing he suggested was a plywood deck ,a huge mistake , to improve stabilty.Then he suggested multi chines, which reduce stability.. Then he told me that a 4 inch bulwark would hold a 4 inch layer of water over the entire deck ,when the boat was heeled 25 degrees going to windward. With such a highly respected designer spouting such harbrained logic, I thought I couldn't do any worse alone ,than he could. A local writer and circumnavigator, who had dealings with him, confirmed my thoughts. The only other options, Colvins were similarly hairbrained interiors ,like a collection of closets and crawl spaces, with a huge amount of boat wasted on cockpit, and a huge amount of bits and pieces making a horrendously more complex and labour intensive construction than needed, or even relevant ,based on my years of steel working expereince, and only ten gauge plating with all it's problems. So I designed my own boat, sucessfuly . 
Sailed that 29 footer around BC for a winter, then non stop to the Marqueas, then on to Tahiti , Moorea, Huahine, Raiatea, Tahaa, Bora Bora, then north to Hilo and home to Bamfield BC. Then on the inside for the summer, before putting her first engine in her. 
The following fall a friend asked me to design him a 26 footer. That was my first origami boat. Almost all the steel work was done in 29 days; hull, decks cabin cockpit , keels skeg ,rudder ,lifelines, hatches, cleats , mooring bitts, chainplates, mast step, bow roller, etc etc . She sailed extremely well , outsailing some local trimarans, and balanced extremely well .Later that summer another friend asked me to design him a 36 footer, as there were few designs around here in steel which looked any god or sailed al that well, and none taking ful advantage of the material. That guy didn't follow thru on the building so I built the first 36 for another friend the following summer . Started her in mid June, 1981, and she was launched and sailing, with the owner living aboard, by November. 
After that things got real busy, and I trained others how to build them, so I wouldn't have to do them all. At that time, Waterline Yachts was selling a 33 ft bare hull and deck ,zero detailing, for $25,000, while I was able to get my 36 footers together for around $8,000. The price gap remains about the same. I modified my 31 , filling out the bow and fining down the stern for better directional stability, and added a couple of feet on the stern and squatted her down in the stern a bit. The improvement in directional stability was huge enabling her to balance and self steer with 15 knots of wind on the quarter.
After writing several articles for Pacific Yachting , the editor suggested I design a 40 footer as that would be far more popular . I did and have sole a handful of plans for it while selling hundreds of plans for the 36. Seems those seeking 36 footers included a lot more "Doers."
I made several trips to Mexico and the South Pacific since then, but have always been glad to get home again, and at the moment there is no place else on the planet I would rather be than here. I hear friends who have gone to Arizona to keep warm are freezing their asses off, while here it has been warm and sunny lately. Turned rainy and warm today with that pineapple express bringing warm air up from Hawaii , while the cold arctic air continues to flow down the east side of the rockies, all the way to Texas.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> When I graduated, I began working in steel shops, first as a labourer then as a specilalist, on the brake presss , section rolls, plate rolls, and other machinery. This gave me good, hands on experince on what works on steel and what doesnt, and how steel behaves when worked. During htta time I bought a 36 ft ferro cement hul and finished her. She had a short keel with rudder attached. With my zero expoerinence, I thought she would be a much better boat, with the rudder 6 feet furtehr aft. But considering my zero experience at the time I defered to the exertise of her "world reknown designer "a huge mistake, as time and miles would prove conclusively. I spent al spare time reading everything I couod find on Yacht design.Skenes Elements of Yacht Design, became one of my best sources, altho I learned later, he didnt understand cruising priorities, like directional stability, and solid functional gear , or the amount of gear a cruiser will carry out of necessity.( something many current desingers have no idea of ) Then, after a winter cruising BC, I set sail, at the ripe old age of 23, singlehanded , for New Zealand.
> I arived in New Zealand with $5 and 5 lbs of rice. Luckily there was a labour shortage there ( bus scab wages)
> I hired on as a labourer at a steel fabricating shop, and at much lower wages I found myself advising thenm on simple solutions to problems which were baffling them which I would quickly come up with simpe solutions to. It clearly showed me the uselessness of the qualifications they had. I decided then and there not to underestimate what I could do.
> At that time Ganly's Snowbird was featured in Sea Spray magazine, a 30 footer made of 3/16th plate. One thing which had limited my interest insteel was the myth that it had to be 1/8th inch plate . My fero hul was far heavier than 3/16ht plate ,and except for her lack of directional stability and her rudder being in the wrong place she sailed fine.
> After cruising up thru the western Pacific, I lost that ferro boat in Fiji, when she broke loose from a mooring. Had she been steel, she would have suffered zero damage in the same conditions.
> So I left all th egear off her at a shipping agenbty and flew home to build the steel boat I had been designing. I took my drawings to Stan Huntingford ,a highly respoected local designer. The first thing he suggested was a plywood deck ,a huge mistake , to improve stabilty.Then he suggested multi chines, which reduce stability.. The he told me that a 4 inch bulwark would hold a 4 inch layer of water over the entire deck ,when the boat was heeled 25 degrees going to windward. Withj such a highly respoected designer spouting such harbrained logic, I thought I couldnt do any worse alone ,than he could. A local writer and circumnavigator, who had dealings with him, confirmed my thoughts. The only other options, Covins were similarly hairbrained interiors ,like a collection of closets and crawl spaces, with a huge amount of boat wasted on cockpit, and a huge amounbtof bits and pieces making a hirendously more complex and labour intensive construction than needed or even relevant ,based on my years of steel working expereince, and only ten gauge plating with all it's problems. So I desinged my own boat, sucessfuly .
> Time to go. More editing to come


Summary:



> I don't need 'qualifications'. I'm already intellectually superior to everyone I've ever met. My Divine Providence in the cruising realm is surely 'background' enough.
> 
> You may slowly drop your jaw in amazement now....and send me $40 for my book and DVD.


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## bobperry

In the interest of accuracy it's "Colvins" not "Covins". Tom Colvin is a very well respected and successful designer, known the world over for his work in steel boats. I can't imagine dismissing his work so quickly based on his interior layouts. Almost anybody can rearrange an interior. It sounds very much to me that BS had no idea at all what Stan Huntingford was trying toi tell him. Stan was a very good designer who understood the basic elements of naval architecture. BS does not now understand the basdic elements of naval architecture i.e.182 degree positive RM? and certainly did not know them back then. I'm sure Stan was happy to see the backside of BS leaving his office.


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## smackdaddy

It must really suck as a world-renown yacht designer/architect/engineer to get to the end of your life and suddenly realize you've fallen short in the Eyes of Swain.

Your feeble, despairing sight growing dim as he sneers at the ruins of your life's work with elk juice running down his chin.


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## bobperry

Smacks:
Now that really hurts.
It's a damn good thing I have a night job.


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> When I graduated, I began working in steel shops, first as a labourer then as a specilalist, on the brake presss , section rolls, plate rolls, and other machinery. This gave me good, hands on experince on what works on steel and what doesnt, and how steel behaves when worked. During htta time I bought a 36 ft ferro cement hul and finished her. She had a short keel with rudder attached. With my zero expoerinence, I thought she would be a much better boat, with the rudder 6 feet furtehr aft. But considering my zero experience at the time I defered to the exertise of her "world reknown designer "a huge mistake, as time and miles would prove conclusively. I spent al spare time reading everything I couod find on Yacht design.Skenes Elements of Yacht Design, became one of my best sources, altho I learned later, he didnt understand cruising priorities, like directional stability, and solid functional gear , or the amount of gear a cruiser will carry out of necessity.( something many current desingers have no idea of ) Then, after a winter cruising BC, I set sail, at the ripe old age of 23, singlehanded , for New Zealand.
> I arived in New Zealand with $5 and 5 lbs of rice. Luckily there was a labour shortage there ( bus scab wages)
> I hired on as a labourer at a steel fabricating shop, and at much lower wages I found myself advising thenm on simple solutions to problems which were baffling them which I would quickly come up with simpe solutions to. It clearly showed me the uselessness of the qualifications they had. I decided then and there not to underestimate what I could do.
> At that time Ganly's Snowbird was featured in Sea Spray magazine, a 30 footer made of 3/16th plate. One thing which had limited my interest insteel was the myth that it had to be 1/8th inch plate . My fero hul was far heavier than 3/16ht plate ,and except for her lack of directional stability and her rudder being in the wrong place she sailed fine.
> After cruising up thru the western Pacific, I lost that ferro boat in Fiji, when she broke loose from a mooring. Had she been steel, she would have suffered zero damage in the same conditions.
> So I left all th egear off her at a shipping agenbty and flew home to build the steel boat I had been designing. I took my drawings to Stan Huntingford ,a highly respoected local designer. The first thing he suggested was a plywood deck ,a huge mistake , to improve stabilty.Then he suggested multi chines, which reduce stability.. The he told me that a 4 inch bulwark would hold a 4 inch layer of water over the entire deck ,when the boat was heeled 25 degrees going to windward. Withj such a highly respoected designer spouting such harbrained logic, I thought I couldnt do any worse alone ,than he could. A local writer and circumnavigator, who had dealings with him, confirmed my thoughts. The only other options, Covins were similarly hairbrained interiors ,like a collection of closets and crawl spaces, with a huge amount of boat wasted on cockpit, and a huge amounbtof bits and pieces making a hirendously more complex and labour intensive construction than needed or even relevant ,based on my years of steel working expereince, and only ten gauge plating with all it's problems. So I desinged my own boat, sucessfuly .
> Time to go. More editing to come


The annoying thing is however that Brent did indeed do all of this. Swipes at yacht designers aside, obviously his path worked for him.

It worked so well in fact that he can't possibly consider how anyone would do anything different and believes that he is the only guy that has ever designed/built a cruiser friendly boat.

This sadly places him at the top of the 'hair brained' list for me.


----------



## SloopJonB

There's nothing unique about Brent's attitude. It's the age old disdain of the tradesman for the architect or engineer who doesn't build their designs with their own hands.

Carpenters sometimes design the houses that they build - they look much like Brent's boats - all function, little or no style.

For the most part I prefer designers who design and builders who build.

Nurse shoes are eminently practical, sturdy and treat the feet well but I much prefer women in stilettos.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Smacks:
> Now that really hurts.
> It's a damn good thing I have a night job.


Geezer rock! Finest kind.


----------



## Faster

SloopJonB said:


> Geezer rock! Finest kind.


Amen to that!


----------



## outbound

I don't know my bride looks sweet in her nurses clogs. ( grin). Brent has a experiencal knowledge base that's meaningful and not to be discounted.. I would like to think most N.A. s love sailboats, sailing and designing in equal measure. Still,I'm fearful of anyone who knows the truth,the one and truth. Be it in politics,religion, or sailboats.


----------



## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> Initially we used to put the longitudinals in after the hull was pulled together. It took only hand pressure to push them in. Thus ""hand pressure' is something Mike considers structurally relevant in his designs. If hand pressure is relevant to the strength of his designs. then I would seek another designer, who designs with a greater safety margin. Sounds like flimsy designing to me. When you bend anything, the inside of the curve is under compression, the outside under tension. That is one of the most basic principles of structural engineering. Anyone who is incapable of grasping such a simple concept, is definitely no engineer, and a poor source of advice on anything pertaining to engineering.


See the stress plot links posted somewhere below. Also consider any laminated structure say (for a clear example) a grand beam for your local cultural centre. You can build it from thin straight strips of wood all bent in to place by a 4 year old using no greater weights than pebbles if you wanted, yet when you are finished and each part is affixed to the adjacent it can take immense loads.

This is the same with your example above, it's stronger if you put the internal framing in relaxed because then you can get more useful ultimate strength out of the parts that fuse to become the complete structure. 
Your concept that the very slender longitudinals add immense strength simply because they are under compression is simply flawed. And It's the claimant that need to show otherwise. You can't base the strength on feelings and beliefs only facts based on either a model test to destruction or by a proper analysis. I offered to do this for Brent, but he wouldn't have any part in it and instead spent a large amount of effort trying to make engineers look like idiots based on his view of the space shuttle disasters, the Titanic disaster and Bumble bees&#8230;..



Brent Swain said:


> Anyone who claims that if you weld angles to the inside of a plate, then bend it in a curve, the extreme outward pressure of the angles under compression is less than "hand pressure" is definitely no engineer, and poor source of any advice on engineering. He could always weld angles to along piece of plate, leaving just enough space under them to fit his fingers in ,then have a friend crank the plate into a curve, with the angles on the inside, and his fingers under the angles ,and "feel the pressure." His fingers would be quickly amputated !


So what is the compression in the longitudinals? What is this extreme outward pressure? You don't have a clue do you !

Statements like these are garbage without putting numbers to it. And then you still miss the weakness of the structure which is the slenderness of the longitudinals relative to their span.



Brent Swain said:


> It would be interesting to lay an angle alongside one which has been welded inside a hull before curving it, and see if there is any difference in length.
> Again, Mike compares angles welded inside a hull, with a 2 inch weld every 4 inches , before curving it to a beam out in the open, attached to nothing !


There won't be any noticeable difference in length.



Brent Swain said:


> No Mike, they don't behave the same. No Mike , you cant stretch the several feet of 3/16th plate, with a tensile strength of 11250 lbs. per lineal inch , by pushing on the end of an inch by 1inch by 3/8th inch angle, welded along it.
> No Mike the plate wont stretch the plates welded onto it at an angle ,at 11250 lbs per linear inch tensile strength, diagonally, which they would have to do, in order to flatten out
> No Mike, a longitudinal welded to a plate is not the same as an angle laying unattached to anything, laying out in the open. The ends are as solidly supported from any longitudinal movement, as your frames ending on a keel or deck.
> No Mike a longitudinal will not slide freely along a plate it is welded to with a 2 inch weld every 4 inches ,nor will it stretch the 3/16th plate diagonally.


Which is exactly what I said about giving you enough rope, trouble is you just don't understand what we are looking at, it's got nothing to do with ultimate strength. Again&#8230;.. it's whether strain increases faster than stress . Whether the rate of the amount it distorts increases faster than the rate of the load increment. This is a very important concept, you need to understand this, quoting numbers sounds technical but you just don't get it, none of these arguments or figures has any bearing on buckling

Most people can get the concept of pre-tensioned beams your design has local loads resisted by beams in pre-compression, the plate cannot be supported as a membrane and so can never exhibit tensile strength, all it can do is try and resist that Achilles heel of structures which is once again "Buckling". Unfortunately your pre compression assists buckling through inflection and stress transfer. The reason I modeled the beams for you was to show you how weak it really is for tertiary hull loads.

Transverse frame calculation - Page 7 - Boat Design Forums

Transverse frame calculation - Page 10 - Boat Design Forums

As I told you before (but you continually choose to ignore): In those models the slender longitudinals are fully fixed at the ends and the plate is partially elastically restrained along it's edges to simulate adjacent structure, not out in the open as you keep claiming. Look at the stress plots and the color bars, the positive numbers are tension and the negative numbers are compression.



Brent Swain said:


> the first 36 I built, which pounded for 16 days on a Baja beach, just south of San Ignacio, and was pulled off thru 8 to 12 ft surf , being lifted and dropped on hard packed sand, for a quarter mile without any serious dents, did not "dent easily."


These tales are not only 2nd or third hand by the time they are collected by you but they also grow in the telling. Also consider that sand is forgiving and doesn't induce the point loads a rocky beach would., Even foam core lightweights and even Ferro cement boats can and have been pulled off intact from a sand beach after being washed ashore in a storm.

The one thing you learn with damaged craft is that like a road vehicle crash the damage indicates the severity of the impact. Your tales read endlessly along the lines of I heard that a particular model of car was hit by a truck and there was no damage so therefore that model of car is incredibly strong !

Real strength would show significant impact damage that was limited in extent, again ****** is a good example. If there was no damage it's simply because there was no impact force which exceeded yield strength of the plating, and small steel boats are tough.



Brent Swain said:


> What "Head of water" does it take to match the forces of a 36 being lifted up 12 feet and dropped repeatedly on sand too hard to leave a foot print in, for a quarter mile?


Remembering this is all about claims your design will scale up from the proven 36' with no problems. You should be able to say what design head and factor of safety your designs exhibit, not base it on collected marketing hype for much smaller steel craft.

Loads don't scale linearly with length that's something significant you misunderstood in the past. I suspect you still do.



Brent Swain said:


> none of my boats have extra framing, beyond what I have designed in .You know of any? Name one! Show us the pictures of the extra framing.


I already said that one boat you commonly tout as vindication for your design rationale which completed the NW passage was Winstons 27 foot origami. It was built with thicker plate AND extensively transverse framed. Not to your design just to your plate pattern. You know it's common for builders to put more framing in. There are lots of pictures with your designs with extra framing that people add after reading threads like this. 
Then these 'framed' boats are used as proof by you that frames are not required. There are numerous building pics of your pattern with transverse frames not in your plans. You know that as well as anybody.



Brent Swain said:


> Its interesting, this ESP you claim to have, claiming you know more about what goes into a boat than the builder of 38 of them, and the designer. If you put that kind of mental telepathy to work buying your next lottery ticket, you wont have to masquerade as an engineer any more. How about giving us some winning numbers here, so we can test your claim out? We don't mind sharing that kind of winnings.






Brent Swain said:


> Your drum skin theory is interesting. You could consider the support which strong points such as the chines, centreline and decks provide, far stronger than any transverse frames, as the rims of your drum. You say they don't count structurally? Then you are no engineer!


Of course they count structurally as they do in every boat nobody ever said otherwise. There's absolutely nothing unique about this in your design. This is about considering the unsupported hull between these lines of support.



Brent Swain said:


> As long as there is outside curve , you have compression, not the tension in your drum skin. It doesn't get there until it has been straightened out.


That's the significant limit to damage , without the framing it just keeps collapsing once collapse starts, that was the very point.

But you can have also have tension between frame supports in the run of the curved plate and it makes it a lot stronger if you can get tension in any direction. In tension the material can be used to it's full strength even into the plastic region. That's just not possible with an unframed design which takes a lot less energy to collapse. you can also catch a buckled partial panel and let it develop tension from restraint by supporting adjacent framing which stops it collapsing any further.



Brent Swain said:


> What saved ****** was she was hit with a blunt object, not a sharp point, She was also saved by those huge, fully welded steel bulkheads, called decks and bottom plate. Transverse frames parallel to the impact had zero effect . &#8230;&#8230;.


This is wrong. The plate has stretched because it was restrained and allowed to yield plastically in tension. This absorbs the shock impact and reduces the acceleration and resultant force from the blow much more than a simple 'shape collapse'.

If the framing hadn't been there the collapse would have been much more global because as the collapsing plate starts to develop tension it simply pulls more of the adjacent structure into thecollapse zone beacasue it can't develop stress as a membrane.

This is all very well known very well established fact you can find in any structural tome for monocoque design using shells.

A good analogy would be submarine pressure hulls (just long tubes) which can take local collision impact or depth charge damage and yield plastically with controlled damage simply because they have close transverse ring frames. Uboats for example had a simple 3m dia tube of around 18mm thickness and a 180mm deep ring frame every 900mm. Without those transverse supports the whole tube collapses, the supports allow the tube wall to stretch in tension and absorb energy. They also stop the tube collapsing ( from buckling) into a long thin strip at dive depths of 300 ft.



Brent Swain said:


> A transverse frame will only stop holing if the sharp point lands directly on a frame. What are the odds of that happening. If it misses the frame, it increases the odds of holing.


I say this is clearly imagination and marketing hype. For example with numerous steel boats that have been on the rocks, hit reefs and been in collisions you don't have one example of another small steel craft that was holed because it was framed. And the framed versions of your own Brent boats are also not prone to holing on tank boundaries or additional frames which should be apparent as a good comparison.



Brent Swain said:


> No, a pickaxe wont go thru 6 mm plate but will thru the 1/8th inch plate commonly used for 36 ft fully framed hulls, especially if you hit right next to a frame. Not so easily with 3/16th plate I use, with no hard point frames to stretch against


3.2 mm plate for hull ....Commonly ?



Brent Swain said:


> Tad Roberts , whom I have never, met calculated the ultimate stability of my 36 at 165 degrees . Jim the Russian computer whizz, put the lines in his computer, and it gave the ultimate stability at 175 degrees, posted on the origamiboats site, which is what my model tests gave me. Two factors which gave us the ultimate stability problems , flush decks and excessive beam, my boats have neither of.


Here's the link to Tad Roberts final estimate which was 131 degrees.

Swain BS_36 Stability curve - Page 18 - Boat Design Forums

As he pointed out it's easy to verify with an inclining test. For a higher figure you are relying on an intact and buoyant mast, neither of which is figured into inversion calculations for any sailboat for several reasons.

So "Jim" apparently factored an intact buoyant mast to get 175 degrees. Presuming he used the same centre of gravity as Tad he must have.

But importantly you don't understand why we don't use mast volume in ultimate stability. It isn't really a real situation, that the smooth water GZ curve is just a good rule of thumb for comparison of craft in waves and their relative safety.

If you count the a buoyant mast in the GZ then we need to do that for every design you compare it with, not include a buoyant mast in BS stability curves and exclude it in other boats it's being compared with.



Brent Swain said:


> The boat with the keel problem is called "Mishar" and at last report was moored at the Airport Marina in Richmond BC. I have never met the current owner, but met the previous owner at Fanning Island, on his way to New Zealand and back to BC, a trouble free voyage. It was his second Brentboat.


You dodged the issue there; it's not the only boat to suffer rotated keels and that happened to other Brent designed and Brent Built boats as well as this Mishar. In this you are being deceptive as you are very aware.

I'm inclined to think with your very well displayed 'honesty problem' that only first hand accounts have any merit and that your engineering justification tales are too far fetched for any serious consideration.

Another good example (used to 'prove' that pre compressed slender framing actually works) is the common claim a Brent boat Tee-boned a steel barge at hull speed (and that the barge was floating high and dry) . 
When reliable witnesses came forward it transpired that the boat was maneuvering to approach the dock, and the barge was sunk and awash. The boat slid up a little on its stem and slid back without damage as you'd expect with any steel boat. In collisions like this the damage is not much about strength but about the hardness of the stem. Riding up uses up the collision energy, so instead of incredible strength you just need a hard stem that can slide. Many trad built coastal wooden fishing boats here have a significant galvanized steel or bronze stem piece bolted on for just such encounters with debri and even rocks.


----------



## NCC320

Brent Swain said:


> When I graduated, I began working in steel shops, first as a labourer then as a specilalist, on the brake presss , section rolls, plate rolls, and other machinery. This gave me good, hands on experince on what works on steel and what doesnt, and how steel behaves when worked. During htta time I bought a 36 ft ferro cement hul and finished her. She had a short keel with rudder attached. With my zero expoerinence, I thought she would be a much better boat, with the rudder 6 feet furtehr aft. But considering my zero experience at the time I defered to the exertise of her "world reknown designer "a huge mistake, as time and miles would prove conclusively. I spent al spare time reading everything I couod find on Yacht design.Skenes Elements of Yacht Design, became one of my best sources, altho I learned later, he didnt understand cruising priorities, like directional stability, and solid functional gear , or the amount of gear a cruiser will carry out of necessity.( something many current desingers have no idea of ) Then, after a winter cruising BC, I set sail, at the ripe old age of 23, singlehanded , for New Zealand.
> I arived in New Zealand with $5 and 5 lbs of rice. Luckily there was a labour shortage there ( bus scab wages)
> I hired on as a labourer at a steel fabricating shop, and at much lower wages I found myself advising thenm on simple solutions to problems which were baffling them which I would quickly come up with simpe solutions to. It clearly showed me the uselessness of the qualifications they had. I decided then and there not to underestimate what I could do.
> At that time Ganly's Snowbird was featured in Sea Spray magazine, a 30 footer made of 3/16th plate. One thing which had limited my interest insteel was the myth that it had to be 1/8th inch plate . My fero hul was far heavier than 3/16ht plate ,and except for her lack of directional stability and her rudder being in the wrong place she sailed fine.
> After cruising up thru the western Pacific, I lost that ferro boat in Fiji, when she broke loose from a mooring. Had she been steel, she would have suffered zero damage in the same conditions.
> So I left all th egear off her at a shipping agenbty and flew home to build the steel boat I had been designing. I took my drawings to Stan Huntingford ,a highly respoected local designer. The first thing he suggested was a plywood deck ,a huge mistake , to improve stabilty.Then he suggested multi chines, which reduce stability.. The he told me that a 4 inch bulwark would hold a 4 inch layer of water over the entire deck ,when the boat was heeled 25 degrees going to windward. Withj such a highly respoected designer spouting such harbrained logic, I thought I couldnt do any worse alone ,than he could. A local writer and circumnavigator, who had dealings with him, confirmed my thoughts. The only other options, Covins were similarly hairbrained interiors ,like a collection of closets and crawl spaces, with a huge amount of boat wasted on cockpit, and a huge amounbtof bits and pieces making a hirendously more complex and labour intensive construction than needed or even relevant ,based on my years of steel working expereince, and only ten gauge plating with all it's problems. So I desinged my own boat, sucessfuly .
> Time to go. More editing to come


Brent,

Thanks for the first part of your story. Was the first boat Origami style or more conventional steel construction? Hope you will continue with the remainder of the Brent Swain story. When and how did you get into designing the other boats and doing it for others? How many designs, how many boats, etc? Also, building of the designs?

Years ago, here in coastal NC, especially down on Harker's Island, there were old time boat builders who built trawlers and fishing boats of all sizes in wood. I am told that these people would build from a set of simple formulas. The first frame had a certain angle/size, the next a little different, the next still different. I have read that they would sometimes work out the frames (and consequently the design) on the back of an old envelope. The boats were rugged and would last many years (however, steel construction seems to be replacing the old wood construction). How to do the calculations was just passed down form generation to generation. These guys built successful boats, but their skill seemed to center around carpentry more than it did in understanding the forces and stresses working on the boats. I'm guessing that over time and through the generations, they knew, from trial and error in the field on their and other's boats, that a boat of a certain length/beam, needed frames and planking of a certain size. Most of those builders are now gone.


----------



## SloopJonB

I think you'll find people building boats of all sizes by that sort of rule of thumb and experience method on beaches all over the world.

I remember reading about an old beach builder in Bequia - he built fishing dinghys in the 15-20 foot range. His basic proportion rule was "A T'ird de length is de wid', plus a little more, more or less".

If basic function is all that matters it works O/K for relatively unsophisticated workboats but it won't build much of a yacht.


----------



## hpeer

I want to chime in on a couple of points here. Not an expert but I own two steel sailboats and have looked at a few more when searching for what we have.

IIRC the rule of thumb is that 10 gage or 1/8" steel is about as thin as you can weld without too much heat distortion. Again generally speaking, scantlings for 10 gage work down to about 40 feet, so below that 10 gage is "overbuilt" which is why so many small steel boats are proportionately heavy.

My small boat, 33', is 10gage. The big boat, 44', is 1/4" first 3 plates then 3/16". But I have seen much bigger boats in 10 gage. Here is a link to a relatively famous 44'er in 10 gage. (3mm)

1989 Custom cruising ketch Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com



> Hull Construction: Ten-gauge steel plating was stress-relief welded. Larger plates are used in the under body and topsides. Plates at the turn of the bilge were rolled to fit the molded radius of the round hull shape. About seven sections were installed and the ones at the stern and bow ends were multi-rolled to fit the changing radius of this conical development. The framework of the hull was floated into place while the welding of the plate was done. Afterwards it was spot welded to the hull plates.


We looked at a couple of Colvin Gazelles. On one you had to crawl through the engine room to the aft cabin.

We also looked at a big (52?') Colvin ketch, damn near a schooner. Deeply raked masts, I mean Deep. That boat was 10 gage! Talked in person to the original owner/builder and I queried him closely on that point.

Her saloon was immense with a huge curving leather setee. You could waltz in there, with no handholds. Getting to the aft cabin you squeezed past the engine room, then crouched very low, nearly on your knees. The main bunk, a double, was to one side. IIRC the foot of the bunk was behind a bulkhead sorta like a quarter berth. We couldn't figure how to get In or out.

So, yes, 10 gage boats are out there and fairly common and yes some Colvin interiors are "interesting."


----------



## hpeer

SloopJonB said:


> I think you'll find people building boats of all sizes by that sort of rule of thumb and experience method on beaches all over the world.
> 
> I remember reading about an old beach builder in Bequia - he built fishing dinghys in the 15-20 foot range. His basic proportion rule was "A T'ird de length is de wid', plus a little more, more or less".
> 
> If basic function is all that matters it works O/K for relatively unsophisticated workboats but it won't build much of a yacht.


Funny you should say that.

My thought is that Bob designs yachts and Brent builds boats. With this distinction it is easier to see and understand the differences. Their objectives are vastly different.

Both gentlemen build craft that float, and these craft convey their passengers about. Brent's boats are for the cash strapped home builder, project guy. Dirt under the fingernails, wants to know hew she works. Bobs yachts are finely crafted works of art for the well healed and lucky who are fortunate enough to have his work.

The argument baffles me. Of course they can't agree, they aren't doing the same thing. Not even remotely. It's like arguing the rules of "football" between an American and Englishman. They both have balls eek and played on a field and score. But, ones round and black and white, the other is brown and weird shaped.

In my world there is room for both, in fact it is a better world for having both and the choice.

For some reason I kinda fear I'll piss 'em both off, although that's not my intent.

Carry on.


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## outbound

That green vessel seems more of a yacht then a boat. Some finely crafted vessels have been made in steel. On another thread Steve posts on voyaging in an aluminum yacht. I'm curious if after owning two fine steel yachts if you starting now what material you you prefer.


----------



## MikeJohns

hpeer said:


> I want to chime in on a couple of points here. Not an expert but I own two steel sailboats and have looked at a few more when searching for what we have.
> 
> IIRC the rule of thumb is that 10 gage or 1/8" steel is about as thin as you can weld without too much heat distortion. Again generally speaking, scantlings for 10 gage work down to about 40 feet, so below that 10 gage is "overbuilt" which is why so many small steel boats are proportionately heavy.
> 
> My small boat, 33', is 10gage. The big boat, 44', is 1/4" first 3 plates then 3/16". But I have seen much bigger boats in 10 gage. Here is a link to a relatively famous 44'er in 10 gage. (3mm)
> 
> 1989 Custom cruising ketch Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
> 
> We looked at a couple of Colvin Gazelles. On one you had to crawl through the engine room to the aft cabin.
> 
> We also looked at a big (52?') Colvin ketch, damn near a schooner. Deeply raked masts, I mean Deep. That boat was 10 gage! Talked in person to the original owner/builder and I queried him closely on that point.
> ...............
> 
> So, yes, 10 gage boats are out there and fairly common .........."


We use metric scantlings almost universally now so it can be confusing using US plate gauge sizes, but Isn't 1/8" 11 gauge or 3.2mm ?

See Standard Gauge for Sheet and Plate Iron, Ted Pella, Inc.

10 gauge is listed as 3.6mm which is getting closer to the minimum we usually ever use which is 4mm. And 4mm plate is easier to roll for round bilge steel craft which reduces the construction cost but the welders don't like such thin plate. Neither do I.

In larger boats the bottom plate fwd is often a size up from the topside and aft bottom plate since slamming loads are greater in the forebody. There is also Corten steel which is stronger and often used in larger boats that have thinner plate. 
My own preference is for a bit less framing, thicker plate and consequently a decent corrosion allowance with steel.

The formulas juggle plate thickness, frame spacing and design pressure head. Since the plate usually counts for a significant part of the section modulus of the framing (it's outer Flange) it's not necessarily such a great weight penalty to have thicker plate and there are sweet spots in the 'design space' which are driven by juggling commonly available framing sizes spacing and plating thickness to get an optimal weight to strength.


----------



## NCC320

SloopJonB said:


> I think you'll find people building boats of all sizes by that sort of rule of thumb and experience method on beaches all over the world.
> 
> I remember reading about an old beach builder in Bequia - he built fishing dinghys in the 15-20 foot range. His basic proportion rule was "A T'ird de length is de wid', plus a little more, more or less".
> 
> If basic function is all that matters it works O/K for relatively unsophisticated workboats but it won't build much of a yacht.


As much as we'd like to think sometimes that we are very advanced technically, we still build boats, ships, planes, buildings, roads, and almost everything that way (rule of thumb and experience) today. We just don't call it rule of thumb. We will, however, talk glowingly to potential clients about our experience in the field. In every industry, there are trade standards and specifications. And government comes up with more, called building codes and standards. And even when we sit down to engineer or design something, we will use formulas that were often developed by trial and error (called experience and experimentation). Then, on most really complicated items, we will then spend much time and money, testing and confirming on prototypes, that our calculations were correct and that we didn't overlook something. Never mind, that we have already put in safety factors in our design. You calculated the forces to be "X". But then, we'll put in a safety factor of maybe 2.5X or even more, just to be sure. And even when we push the knowledge envelope with something new, we will have used the past experience and techiques to guide us.

And those boats from Harker's Island. Some were small, but many were 40-70 ocean going trawlers. And in a time before Hatteras Yachts and other such names, some of those builders built sportsfisherman boats occasionally. It is true that trawlers are not built like yachts. While pretty and finely executed, most yachts would fail miserably as trawlers or other workboats. Yachts and workboats are different animals.


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## bobperry

Peer:
You didn't "piss me off" at all. In fact the point you made is one I have been trying to make all along. BS and I are in very different businesses. I have no problem at all with his business. I do not like BS the person. I do have a problem with his general, narrow minded attitude towards boats that are not like his or sailors who choose a different style of cruising to his. I have real problem with his personal attacks on my wife who he has never met or seen.To me he is an ignorant and boorish person who has trouble with the truth. I also object to his lame efforts to talk about naval architecture. He is not qualified to discuss naval architecture and in doing so her makes some very stupid errors and misleading statements time and time again. He should stay within his area of skill. Which is considerable, i.e. steel boatbuilding. You will not find me discussing steel boatbuilding techniques here for the exact same reason. I am not a steel boat builder. But I am very happy to discuss naval architecture and the designing of yachts. In have no need to invent facts or stretch the truth. I can provide countless examples of the success of my work.


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## djodenda

bobperry said:


> Marty:
> The mast is getting some last minute detailing. The tiller fitting is being fitted to the cf stock. We still need a cove stripe,name and hailing port. But the list is getting shorter.
> As soon as the rig is up we can take the measurements for the sails. I think this could have been done from my rawings but there is a level of perfection in this project that has each of the players working to produce his best work and I'm not going to argue sails with Frank Schattaur. I'm am certain the sails will be impeccable.


I have been very happy with the work I have had done by Schattauer sails.. But as I recall, they only use Dacron.. Will Francis Lee have Dacron sails?


----------



## bobperry

David:
Yes, the first set of sails by Schattauer will be dacron.
Because the rig is right out of a Farr 40, slightly different "J", we can use some used Farr 40 sails but so far the used Farr sails that Kim has found have been surprisingly expensive. Kim is very good friends with the Schattauers and also used to own the boat the Schattauers own now, TIOGA.

I suppose in time Kim will entertain some more exotic sails but for now the push is to get the boat out of the shop and into the water.


----------



## Brent Swain

NCC320 said:


> Brent,
> 
> Thanks for the first part of your story. Was the first boat Origami style or more conventional steel construction? Hope you will continue with the remainder of the Brent Swain story. When and how did you get into designing the other boats and doing it for others? How many designs, how many boats, etc? Also, building of the designs?
> 
> Years ago, here in coastal NC, especially down on Harker's Island, there were old time boat builders who built trawlers and fishing boats of all sizes in wood. I am told that these people would build from a set of simple formulas. The first frame had a certain angle/size, the next a little different, the next still different. I have read that they would sometimes work out the frames (and consequently the design) on the back of an old envelope. The boats were rugged and would last many years (however, steel construction seems to be replacing the old wood construction). How to do the calculations was just passed down form generation to generation. These guys built successful boats, but their skill seemed to center around carpentry more than it did in understanding the forces and stresses working on the boats. I'm guessing that over time and through the generations, they knew, from trial and error in the field on their and other's boats, that a boat of a certain length/beam, needed frames and planking of a certain size. Most of those builders are now gone.


My first steel boat was a 29 footer built in 1979 using traditional construction. My second was an origami boat a 26 footer , most of the steel work done, including detail, in 21 days.
Herreschoff's book "The common Sense of Yacht Design." gives far simpler ways and logic for basic calculations.


----------



## Brent Swain

Bob
I thought of a very simple way to eliminate the inevitable leaks on your wooden toe rail as well as other plastic boat deck hardware. You could zip cut the bolts of below decks, flush with the nuts, and glass over them with a 2 inch round of matt. It would be a two man job ,one glassing and another with a heat lamp, kicking the resin off before it landed in the bilge. Having done overhead glassing, I know how easily that happens. With the nut locked in fibreglass you can use a screwdriver to undo the bolts if necessary, and the FG will hold the nut. This is a pain in the ass job , but far less of one in the building stage, rather than later and far less so than rebedding stuff every few years .


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> In the interest of accuracy it's "Colvins" not "Covins". Tom Colvin is a very well respected and successful designer, known the world over for his work in steel boats. I can't imagine dismissing his work so quickly based on his interior layouts. Almost anybody can rearrange an interior. It sounds very much to me that BS had no idea at all what Stan Huntingford was trying toi tell him. Stan was a very good designer who understood the basic elements of naval architecture. BS does not now understand the basdic elements of naval architecture i.e.182 degree positive RM? and certainly did not know them back then. I'm sure Stan was happy to see the backside of BS leaving his office.


Whatever you do with a Colvin, it is still a very cramped space, with no sitting headroom under the side decks of a 34 footer , and a huge amount of boat length wasted on cockpit. His comments about a small steel boat sagging or hogging if it doesn't have transverse frames, ( like suggesting a corrugated hose will sag or hog more if it doesn't have transverse frames ) displays an abysmal lack of understanding of basic structural principles. What Stan Huntingford was telling me was that he hasn't the foggiest idea of the problems of a wooden deck on a steel hull, in the practical world, and he didn't have the foggiest idea that a 4 inch layer of water will not stay level on a deck heeled 25 degrees.
Here's how the world top designers design a boat
Things change quickly during sailing competition. [VIDEO]
Funny thing! None of my boats has ever done that! I guess I MUST be doing it all wrong ( according to the worlds top experts, who designed this boat)
And you say I should serve an apprenticeship under these types of experts, so I can get it RIGHT, the way they do ?
No thanks!


----------



## smackdaddy




----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Bob
> I thought of a very simple way to eliminate the inevitable leaks on your wooden toe rail as well as other plastic boat deck hardware. You could zip cut the bolts of below decks, flush with the nuts, and glass over them with a 2 inch round of matt. It would be a two man job ,one glassing and another with a heat lamp, kicking the resin off before it landed in the bilge. Having done overhead glassing, I know how easily that happens. With the nut locked in fibreglass you can use a screwdriver to undo the bolts if necessary, and the FG will hold the nut. This is a pain in the ass job , but far less of one in the building stage, rather than later and far less so than rebedding stuff every few years .


Sounds good but doesn't work. It seals the joint from leaks but you can't pull the fasteners later - they just spin.

Check out Lackeysailing.com - he just experienced that exact thing.


----------



## Classic30

SloopJonB said:


> Sounds good but doesn't work. It seals the joint from leaks but you can't pull the fasteners later - they just spin.


It might seal the *joint* from leaks, but it also traps any moisture that gets in from above via normal working of the fitting around the bolt thread and deck core itself with no way of escape (no 'tell-tale leak') - and that could be a bad thing.


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## SloopJonB

Sealing metal inside glass is a pretty poor idea in all cases that I've seen.


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## bobperry

I'm with JonB on that. It works for a while but can cause big problems over time.

Good old video BS. It was interesting when it was new. But I don't see your point. Are you really comparing your crude steel boats to a cutting edge composite AC boat? If you are you are truly a myopic fool. For the record none of my boats has ever done that either but then I don't design AC racing yachts. It's not at all relevant. BS, your work speaks for itself loud and clear.

We'll have FRANCIS LEE launched and sailing soon. I'll post many pics of it sailing. It will be a very beautiful boat with planty of sitting headroom under the side decks. I'll let Francis LEE speak for itself.

We live and work in very different worlds BS. I think we have almost nothing in common. I think NIGHT RUNNER, with it's impressive record of offshore cruising and succesful racing while looking beautiful makes my point succinctly.


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## desert rat

There aught to be more than a few people willing to wax and buff NIGHT RUNNER just to be near that lovely ship.


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## Brent Swain

Cutting edge is as cutting edge does. A boat which comes even close to being able to break in half, is not as good a cruising boat as one which could sail right thru such a boat, without suffering significant damage. How close to being able to break in half are your boats, based on the same calculations?
It looks like they paid their full attention to the tension on the centreline, while ignoring the compression on the decks. Cutting a huge section of this out, by taking the cockpit to the rail, cut out a huge part of the decks ability to resist this compression. That is where she broke. 
A hex nut cast in solid fibreglass doesn't turn easily. Bronze may be better able to resist corrosion, than stainless, in such a sealed environment .Or you can simply accept a whole lot of inevitable deck leaks there. 
Or you can build a metal boat and have zero deck leaks, and sleep in a dry bunk( Novel thought for those who have only plastic and wood boat experience.)
My first boat had varnished cabin sides ,toe rails, hatches , cockpit coamings, etc. No one could convince me how dense that was on a cruising boat. Many tried . Only experience could . Another friend, Dave , had a similar set of priorities. Al had a boat which had not a speck of bright work. In Victoria , I was maintaining my bright work, while Dave was maintaining his. Al was sightseeing and golfing. When we got to Frisco bay, I was maintaining my brightwork, while Dave was maintaining his. Al was sightseeing and golfing. When we got to Auckland, I was maintaining my brightwork, and Dave was maintaining his , while Al was sightseeing and golfing. When we got to Vanuatu , I had major work to do, maintaining my brightwork, as did Dave, while Al went snorkeling, golfing and sightseeing. Lost that boat in Fiji , came home and built another, with not a stitch of brightwork anywhere.
Sailed to Maple Bay, where I found Dave . He had canvased over his teak decks and painted all his brightwork. I said 
"After watching Dave have all that playtime, while we had nothing but work to do, I guess we arrived at the same conclusion at roughly the same time. Took along time to sink in. Man was that dense!
Dave agreed."


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Cutting edge is as cutting edge does. A boat which comes even close to being able to break in half, is not as good a cruising boat as one which could sail right thru such a boat, without suffering significant damage. How close to being able to break in half are your boats, based on the same calculations?


Brent, seriously, do realize how stupid these comments sound? It really amazes me the stuff that comes out of your online mouth. How you can possibly be _so far off-point_ is incredible.

You'll literally spin _anything_ to try to maintain your backward view of things.

Brent, you really, really need to open your mind...just a bit. Because this is just getting foolish.


----------



## Brent Swain

hpeer said:


> I want to chime in on a couple of points here. Not an expert but I own two steel sailboats and have looked at a few more when searching for what we have.
> 
> IIRC the rule of thumb is that 10 gage or 1/8" steel is about as thin as you can weld without too much heat distortion. Again generally speaking, scantlings for 10 gage work down to about 40 feet, so below that 10 gage is "overbuilt" which is why so many small steel boats are proportionately heavy.
> 
> My small boat, 33', is 10gage. The big boat, 44', is 1/4" first 3 plates then 3/16". But I have seen much bigger boats in 10 gage. Here is a link to a relatively famous 44'er in 10 gage. (3mm)
> 
> 1989 Custom cruising ketch Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
> 
> We looked at a couple of Colvin Gazelles. On one you had to crawl through the engine room to the aft cabin.
> 
> We also looked at a big (52?') Colvin ketch, damn near a schooner. Deeply raked masts, I mean Deep. That boat was 10 gage! Talked in person to the original owner/builder and I queried him closely on that point.
> 
> Her saloon was immense with a huge curving leather setee. You could waltz in there, with no handholds. Getting to the aft cabin you squeezed past the engine room, then crouched very low, nearly on your knees. The main bunk, a double, was to one side. IIRC the foot of the bunk was behind a bulkhead sorta like a quarter berth. We couldn't figure how to get In or out.
> 
> So, yes, 10 gage boats are out there and fairly common and yes some Colvin interiors are "interesting."


On a couple of Gazelles I have converted that crawl space thru the engine room into a wheelhouse. What a huge difference. Lets you use the full length of the boat . Turns it from a collection of closets to a real 40 footer. On the last one the skipper phoned Colvin. He said he couldn't get more than a couple of words out of his mouth before Colvin went on a long tirade. He was never allowed to say more than a couple of words before Colvin cut him off with a continuous rant. He gave up, and hung up.


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## Brent Swain

How do they design pressure cans to take the pressure? Not Mikes drum skin, flat ,supported by the edges, shape. Check the bottom of pop cans, beer cans, aerosol spray cans, and some propane bottles. They are concave , taking the pressure in compression, on an arc , the same way origami hulls take the pressure. You don't see flat, drum skin type bottoms on such pressure containers, for good reason. Nor do you see framing.. 
I once made a muffler that way . The vibrations caused it to crack along the edges, from metal fatigue, the same way a hull depending on such an idea would tend to crack. Cut a pie shaped wedge out of it and pull it together, like a slight cone, and you will have no such problems. Again, depending on shape for strength, the same way origami hulls get their strength from shape.


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## bobperry

BS:
I agree. The point being that you posted a video of an AC boat breaking in half. Then you go on to say, "A boat which comes even close to being able to break in half, is not as good a cruising boat as one which could sail right thru such a boat,"

Why would you even, for a second, think an AC boat is a "cruising boat"? You need to think a bit more about the diversity of boats out there and the diversity of intended uses.

The limits of your perspective amaze me.


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Brent, seriously, do realize how stupid these comments sound? It really amazes me the stuff that comes out of your online mouth. How you can possibly be _so far off-point_ is incredible.
> 
> You'll literally spin _anything_ to try to maintain your backward view of things.
> 
> Brent, you really, really need to open your mind...just a bit. Because this is just getting foolish.


What you are saying, and have been saying all along, is I should bury my head in the same sand of wilfully blind conformity that you bury yours in, and question nothing, nor try to innovate anything , as you contribute nothing but throw money at it solutions. 
Now that would be really stupid .
Is that arctic air freezing your Texas brain.

Warm here lately . Love it.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> What you are saying, and have been saying all along, is I should bury my head in the same sand of wilfully blind conformity that you bury yours in, and question nothing, nor try to innovate anything , as you contribute nothing but throw money at it solutions.


Actually, no, that's not what I'm saying at all, Brent.

I'm saying _your head is buried so deeply in your own sandbox_ that you can't grasp the points of comparison of an AC racing yacht to a cruising boat - or that a boat is not always heeled at 25 degrees, thereby missing Stan Huntingford's point and accusing _him_ of being the stupid one (when he's not here to defend himself) - or that having a First Nations GG-Grandmother doesn't suddenly make you a papoos in need of sudden respect or federal remuneration - or...

...well, this...

BS Yachts Marketing Program

Don't bury. Unbury.


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## outbound

Brent- I agree with you (OMG>>>OMG>>>>OMG). I think exterior wood has no place on a cruising boat unless you are wealthy and can others maintain the epiphanies or truly enjoy pulling varnish. My "plastic" boat has no exterior wood except a 2"by 2" piece of untreated teak under the bow light and some of the companion way doors which is also untreated solid teak.
You may want to re read your recent texts. Not only do they not correlate to naval design but not even to the basic physics an amateur such as myself knows to be true.


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## Classic30

outbound said:


> Brent- I agree with you (OMG>>>OMG>>>>OMG). I think exterior wood has no place on a cruising boat unless you are wealthy and can others maintain the epiphanies or truly enjoy pulling varnish. My "plastic" boat has no exterior wood except a 2"by 2" piece of untreated teak under the bow light and some of the companion way doors which is also untreated solid teak.


Yes, well, fortunately the real world doesn't have to be quite that clear cut. Exterior wood has it's advantages and disadvantages.. as does plastic.. and steel.

Whilst it might be true that an excess of brightwork can be an expensive exercise and that some go well over the top flashing their bling around the harbour (if they wish to spend their lives varnishing, good luck to them), there are a few places on my old tub that were once painted and are now varnished simply *because* it's easier to look after them that way.

Bob's pic of NIGHT RUNNER is a great example: Undoubtably a very smartly designed and built yacht and no doubt very well sailed also - but to my eye, oh my, give the girl a proper paint job!! She looks like a squashed bee..


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## djodenda

My dad finally got fed up on his circumnavigation and painted the teak on his DownEaster 38.

Sad, but understandable

My present boat has one piece of exterior teak.. the hatchboard. Just right for me (especially since I got CharlieCobra to varnish it for me)

But I do appreciate well maintained brightwork..


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## Classic30

djodenda said:


> My dad finally got fed up on his circumnavigation and painted the teak on his DownEaster 38.
> 
> Sad, but understandable


David, give it a year or two. Once he sees how *ugly* dinged, scratched and faded paint looks, maybe he'll take it all off again. 

That reminds me of the standard turn-of-phrase we were taught on Deck : something like "If it doesn't move, paint it: If it moves, paint it 'till it doesn't!". The paint on the hull of that ship was 1/2" thick in places - and cutting through decades of paint showed clear growth-rings like you get in a tree!


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## bobperry

Classic:
Fact is I fought against the "natural" finish on NIGHT RUNNER from day one. Doug and I both ordered half models. Doug wanted his varnished I ordered mine with a black hull. I thought that if Doug saw the boat with a black painted hull he'd cave and go for the paint. But no.

My problem with natural hulls is that the grains today is not as uniform as it once was. Grain differences can raise aesthetic havoc with the lines of the hull. I want a homogenius finish that will show of the lines I have designed into the boat and the best way to get this is paint.

I was very happy when Doug finally decided to paint the sides of the cabin trunk after 30 years. Unfortunately he chose a "refrigerator" white while I favored a softer foam green.

But I have learned over the years that the paint job of my boats is most often where my advice is ignorred. But I'm not adamant about colors. The color of the boat will not change the performance and truth be told colors is not really one of my strong points.

At least I don't have to deal with the BS paint approach where his boats usually look like the builder got a deal on some off color at the hardware store and painted hull, deck, cabin trunk, railings and coamings all one color. Lovely. I do understand that it makes upkeep easier but it looks baaaaaaad.

Look to the upper right in this photo just to the left of my pipe rack and you can see the black hulled NIGHT RUNNER model.


For contrast here is my Australian buddie's boat ECLIPSE. It is very close to NR in general hull shape but painted dark flag blue. I think it is stunning. The hawse style anchor arrangement is now gone and replaced by a traditional roller off the sprit. And yes, No question, I do love posting photos of my beautiful, functional designs. " A thing of beauty is a joy forever."


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## SloopJonB

Classic30 said:


> That reminds me of the standard turn-of-phrase we were taught on Deck : something like "If it doesn't move, paint it: If it moves, paint it 'till it doesn't!".


Sounds like a variation on the old instructions to enlisted naval crew - "If it moves, salute it, if it doesn't move, paint it."

Years ago I read some good advice about brightwork on offshore cruisers. It was to give it all a good varnish finish and then paint over that. Whilst out on the ocean you get the simplicity and durability of a paint finish but once the cruising is done, it can be stripped back and returned to a bright finish without having to sand deeply to get the paint out of the wood grain.

Best of both worlds.


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## bobperry

"If it moves, salute it, if it doesn't move, paint it."

I heard a similar saying but slightly different and they won't let me post my version here.


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## djodenda

Classic30 said:


> David, give it a year or two. Once he sees how *ugly* dinged, scratched and faded paint looks, maybe he'll take it all off again.


The teak remained painted for at least 5 years. It was that way when he sold it. Don't know what the new owner did.

The new owner wasn't very experienced. He was surprised that the dinghy outboard went swimming after he leaned it up against the boat at the dock...

I never cared for that boat very much. But she did keep my Dad safe.


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## Classic30

bobperry said:


> Classic:
> Fact is I fought against the "natural" finish on NIGHT RUNNER from day one. Doug and I both ordered half models. Doug wanted his varnished I ordered mine with a black hull. I thought that if Doug saw the boat with a black painted hull he'd cave and go for the paint. But no.
> 
> My problem with natural hulls is that the grains today is not as uniform as it once was. Grain differences can raise aesthetic havoc with the lines of the hull. I want a homogenius finish that will show of the lines I have designed into the boat and the best way to get this is paint.


..plus a cove stripe. Preferably a gold cove stripe. But, yes, agreed 100%. 

..and I'm with you on the colour scheme on the half model you have for NIGHT RUNNER. Looks just fine to me. Maybe some day the owner (or a future owner) will get tired of the upkeep and give her the paint job she deserves.



bobperry said:


> For contrast here is my Australian buddie's boat ECLIPSE. It is very close to NR in general hull shape but painted dark flag blue. I think it is stunning. The hawse style anchor arrangement is now gone and replaced by a traditional roller off the sprit. And yes, No question, I do love posting photos of my beautiful, functional designs. " A thing of beauty is a joy forever."


Stunning - most certainly. But dark hull paint and timber can cause big issues in warmer climates (absorbing heat and causing the timber to dry out) and be almost as difficult to keep up as varnishing the thing.

Even wayy down south here in Melbourne, no one in their right mind has a dark-painted timber hull and the few there may be that do change their minds pretty quickly. We see topsides drying out and cracking just a little with standard white, so you can imagine what happens with black. The classic fleet in New Zealand have similar issues.

At least varnish (a soft one) flexes, I suppose.. but for those of us not fortunate enough to live in your mild climate, it seems white is the best compromise.

FWIW, I've gone for varnish above the rub-rail on my little ship simply because it's (a) easier to look after (b) doesn't get chipped and generally knocked about and (c) enhances her lines:










..and, yes, that headsail turning block set-up was a temporary arrangement.


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## outbound

Think bright work is drop dead gorgeous and on classic boats "classic" so the way to go. I had a Tayana and even the stick and boom were bright. The trim on my PSC was bright. Had interesting conversations about to prep, how to thin and how to pull. Could spend hours talking about foam v. badger. But given budget always did my own wood. Have "wooded" two boats and brought them back. Think the last time killed it for me. Now get to fix heads and sand bottoms instead. Just as much fun.


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## bobperry

My Australian buddy, from Sydney, spent two years cruising the South Pacific so I think he is aware of the heat issue. He's not new at this. I'll be curious to hear what he has to say about the blue hull in a couple of years. Boat is still in Seattle being finished.

My half model of NR does have a gold cove stripe. I don't miss much. I take great care in positionng cove stripes. I give offsets for the location and often full sized templates for the end treatments. Which are often ignorred.


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## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> "If it moves, salute it, if it doesn't move, paint it."
> 
> I heard a similar saying but slightly different and they won't let me post my version here.


Post it on SA.


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## desert rat

Pardon, I'm drunk, what two part paint (epoxy) adhears to a good varnish?


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## Classic30

desert rat said:


> Pardon, I'm drunk, what two part paint (epoxy) adhears to a good varnish?


There are plenty of two-pack varnish systems out there that would take a two-pack over the top - but if you want to be able to cut back to your varnish later, you wouldn't be using two-pack over the top.. IMO.

..unless you're drunk.

EDIT: To be honest, you don't really need varnish underneath - CPES would seal the timber just as nicely and be heaps easier to apply - but I think Jon's point was that you *could* paint over a good varnish. Heck, I find myself painting over good varnish all the time: a drop here and a smear there..


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## bobperry

Rat:
It's ok.
Drunk can be good. It sometimes makes people honest.
I'm comfortable with drunk. You just post away and we will translate it.
I have some drunk friends. I like them. It cuts through the ****ski.


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## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> How do they design pressure cans to take the pressure? Not Mikes drum skin, flat ,supported by the edges, shape. Check the bottom of pop cans, beer cans, aerosol spray cans, and some propane bottles. They are concave , taking the pressure in compression, on an arc , the same way origami hulls take the pressure. You don't see flat, drum skin type bottoms on such pressure containers, for good reason. Nor do you see framing..
> ....................... the same way origami hulls get their strength from shape.


They have absolutely nothing similar to a boat hull. Not the shape nor the loads. Forget drink cans and gas bottles we are talking boats here.

Brent you have been told before why pressure vessels are invalid comparisons to boat hulls. Engineering isn't a belief system if you come up with an idea you have to show it's valid. Just saying something repeatedly doesn't make it a fact.

Pressure vessels are a completely different scenario in scale, shape, relative plate thickness and in the level of restraint of the ends. They are also carefully designed for their purpose that includes the end cap shapes. End cap shapes resist buckling but they bear no resemblance to the shallow curves of a boats lines.

In a metal boat hull a huge amount of reserve strength is thrown away if the plate cannot ultimately form a membrane under large strain. If you have tension of one side and compression on the other there is a large amount of material contributing very little to resist collapse. But pre-compressed tension members make this even worse and that's why your designs are so weak for the material they use and why a small amount of additional material added sensibly to your design adds a large amount of strength.

This is a long way from the marketing hype claiming extra strength with less material. Just a classic case of the emperor's clothes.

Here's Bernard Moitessier's steel sailboat "Joshua". But Joshua was extensively transverse framed so Brent was misinformed again.

The damage at the turn of the bilge is from the plate stretching between the close transverse frames as the hull impacted on a rocky shore. You can see that where blows hit the transverses no damage occurred, where the blows struck the plate ( repeatedly) the plate has stretched between the transverses absorbing the impact energy, the transverses also limit the extent of the damage.

Stretching is significant because to stretch the plate past yield it must be in tension. You cannot develop tension without being able to develop a membrane stress by restraining the plate with supporting structure. Buckling collapse uses significantly less impact energy.

You can see how close the transverse frames are. ****** mentioned before was also extensively transverse framed with a similar transverse frame spacing as Joshua.

Steel is immensely tough but you have to design with it properly to get it's full strength. If you want to get full tensile strength of the plate in can only develop that in TENSION !


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## bobperry

Yeah, Mike is right. Silly comparisons. But you revel in silly BS.


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## blt2ski

Drunk might be good right now, I might know where there is some sheet to ski on, but snow!?!?!?!?! I seem to be on the wrong side of the NA continent! maybe 10" where we normally have 5-6' or about 2 meters for you metric inclined folks vs about 20 cm right now! not good, altho snowing a bit at my area, might open tomorrow, about 30 some odd days late! not good for this snow skier dude......

marty


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## bobperry

Frankie sitting outside this morning waiting for the rig to go in and the cove stripe to be applied.


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## djodenda

OK, Bob... dumb question #n...

It looked to me that the exhaust exits the boat amidships around the waterline.. I get that.. it would be a pretty long run aft to the transom..

If she's heeled over and motoring, when would it become a problem with too much back pressure as the exhaust submerges?


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## SloopJonB

Check out the "Perry Sliver" thread on SA - full discussion of the exhaust being routed to both sides..


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## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> Frankie sitting outside this morning waiting for the rig to go in and the cove stripe to be applied.


To paraphrase Elvis, that's "just a hunk, a hunk of burning bulb". 
That ought to stand up to whaterver winds may hit her.


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## SloopJonB

Bob, are you going to give us any info on the performance you expect from FL or do we have to wait for sea trials?

I'm particularly interested in the min. AWA and what sort of speed it will make on a beat.

I'm assuming well into double digits on all points of course.


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## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Frankie sitting outside this morning waiting for the rig to go in and the cove stripe to be applied.


I'm just amazed at how well you've hidden the woodstove pipe.


----------



## bobperry

Ok a couple of things:
In no order.

Yes we did full VPP analysis of the hull very early on in the design stage. We were very intersted in variations of stablity and keel designs. If you PM me I can propvide you with the VPP's.

Jon is correct. Exhaust lead to both sides.There is no such thing as "back pressure" problems when you are dealing with small marine diesel egines. It's a myth. We have a unique situation in the Sliver due to the engine being in it's own compoartment anbd noithing gloing on each side of it. The client liked the "Nor'sea" exhaust system and so we went with it. It is elegant and should work very well. I look forward to seeing exactly how it works, i.e. where does the cooling water go? Always to the low side? We'll just have to see.

Jeff:
Yep, with that little beam I had to do something toi provide stability. Thankfully in the PNW draft is not an issue.


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## djodenda

Thanks, Bob and Jeff.. Lots of conversation over there about the exhaust taking place more or less at the same time.

No need to duplicate it here.

Although SA is frequently not safe for work.


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## Faster

Hey... if I play around with the resolution of my monitor I can almost make my boat look that sleek!!


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## djodenda

I see her mizzen has now been upgraded to carbon...

Looks like it was stolen from my friend's 1D35 which is also at CSR...


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## bobperry

"Although SA is frequently not safe for work. "

Hey! watch it! I resemble that remark.

I just got an email from the owner. Too windy today to put up the rig.
****ski!


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## djodenda

Bob is *occasionally* not safe for work...


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## SloopJonB

It just struck me - Kim is of an age to remember putting "duals" (two exhaust pipes) on a car for more performance.

He's just doing the same with Sliver.


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## Jeff_H

SloopJonB said:


> It just struck me - Kim is of an age to remember putting "duals" (two exhaust pipes) on a car for more performance.
> 
> He's just doing the same with Sliver.


I am still waiting until he mounts a set of raised white letter Polyglas's and patches out for the first time.


----------



## bobperry

"I am still waiting until he mounts a set of raised white letter Polyglas's and patches out for the first time. " 

Me too Jeff.

When I was a kid I had a '48 Chev coupe. My mother bought it from her friend for $20 and gave it to me. The friend was moving and had to get rid of the car. I loved that car. Straight 6 and and engine where you could actually tell what the pieces were.

I went to show it to my friend in the next town. When I left I wanted to show off. So I backed out of his driveway, paused then floored it. Unfortnately I was still in reverse. I flew backwards up into his neighbor's yard ending up smack in the middle of his lawn after bending over several lawn sprinkler heads. It became a lesson in plumbing for me.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Ok a couple of things:
> In no order.
> 
> Yes we did full VPP analysis of the hull very early on in the design stage. We were very intersted in variations of stablity and keel designs. If you PM me I can propvide you with the VPP's.
> 
> Jon is correct. Exhaust lead to both sides.There is no such thing as "back pressure" problems when you are dealing with small marine diesel egines. It's a myth. We have a unique situation in the Sliver due to the engine being in it's own compoartment anbd noithing gloing on each side of it. The client liked the "Nor'sea" exhaust system and so we went with it. It is elegant and should work very well. I look forward to seeing exactly how it works, i.e. where does the cooling water go? Always to the low side? We'll just have to see.
> 
> Jeff:
> Yep, with that little beam I had to do something toi provide stability. Thankfully in the PNW draft is not an issue.


A diesel mechanic told me you can go down 3 ft underwater with a dry exhaust without getting too much back pressure . I hear Europeans often run their exhaust pipes well underwater for silencing . Some friends have done it for years with no problem. You can get drumming on a steel hull if you don't run it thru a hard point, like a chine , etc.


----------



## bobperry

So Brent, are you agreeing with me that back pressure is not a problem with small diesels?
I am working my way through this. But I think there is a back pressure myth.

I hope to hell that we are not going to agree on something. I couldn't handle that.

Did you try the soap?


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> "I am still waiting until he mounts a set of raised white letter Polyglas's and patches out for the first time. "
> 
> Me too Jeff.
> 
> When I was a kid I had a '48 Chev coupe. My mother bought it from her friend for $20 and gave it to me. The friend was moving and had to get rid of the car. I loved that car. Straight 6 and and engine where you could actually tell what the pieces were.
> 
> I went to show it to my friend in the next town. When I left I wanted to show off. So I backed out of his driveway, paused then floored it. Unfortnately I was still in reverse. I flew backwards up into his neighbor's yard ending up smack in the middle of his lawn after bending over several lawn sprinkler heads. It became a lesson in plumbing for me.


That is what is known nowadays as "Pedal misapplication" or "Sudden unintended acceleration" and it's the cars fault.

We used to simply call it f*#king up.


----------



## SloopJonB

Back in the days of the rumrunners they had a "smugglers exhaust". The exhaust line went through a two-way valve and could be routed to the atmosphere or underwater. They would start the unmuffled engine to the atmosphere and then switch to underwater - no sound but the bubbles.

A wet exhaust is already pushing water out - the pressure of the water 6" or 1' down won't make any difference.


----------



## Lou452

SloopJonB said:


> There's nothing unique about Brent's attitude. It's the age old disdain of the tradesman for the architect or engineer who doesn't build their designs with their own hands.
> 
> Carpenters sometimes design the houses that they build - they look much like Brent's boats - all function, little or no style.
> 
> For the most part I prefer designers who design and builders who build.
> 
> Nurse shoes are eminently practical, sturdy and treat the feet well but I much prefer women in stilettos.


This is why you need a team and respect of each other. Maybe you get her in a pair of boots that look oh so hot or lets dig this hole deeper and put her barefoot in the kitchen  
Some of the best welders I have worked are ladies and also some nice female engineers. Team, respect that's how you get form and function . 
Good day, Lou


----------



## outbound

Fish and lobster boats around here work all winter. They have keel coolers and dry stack exhausts. You can hear them miles off. Fisherman go deaf it's so LOUD .? Why do they run dry stacks? Don't understand .


----------



## mitiempo

A lot less engine maintenance with a dry stack. It's a rare workboat that has a wet exhaust with its issues. Louder though, especially on the smaller boats.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
VPP table and polars for Frankie sent vie email.


----------



## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> "I am still waiting until he mounts a set of raised white letter Polyglas's and patches out for the first time. "
> 
> Me too Jeff.
> 
> When I was a kid I had a '48 Chev coupe. My mother bought it from her friend for $20 and gave it to me. The friend was moving and had to get rid of the car. I loved that car. Straight 6 and and engine where you could actually tell what the pieces were.
> 
> I went to show it to my friend in the next town. When I left I wanted to show off. So I backed out of his driveway, paused then floored it. Unfortnately I was still in reverse. I flew backwards up into his neighbor's yard ending up smack in the middle of his lawn after bending over several lawn sprinkler heads. It became a lesson in plumbing for me.


That is a very funny story. 
Jeff


----------



## bobperry

Yeah Jeff, it was humiliating, I had to come nback the next day to fix the damage done. Actually, my friend's Dad did all the work while I sat there and watched. So I got a second dose of humiliation.


----------



## Jeff_H

We all have those humiliating stories from our man-child days. They become great grist for bar side conversations assuming we all survive them. My first car was a used Triumph. It came with an 'over ride bar' on the front bumper which was supposed to prevent American cars with their higher bumpers from backing into the sheet metal on the hood. I had other friends with a mix of odd old sports cars and we would sometime go places as a group. One of these friends usually drove his dad's bugeye Sprite or his own Morris Minor, a car as odd as it's name. 

Chris always gave me grief about the fact that I would look up and down railroad tracks as I was crossing them rather than straight ahead towards where I was driving. On one of these trips we came to a grade crossing in a large switch yard that was probably 7-8 rows of tracks wide. And as it happened Chris was in his father's sprite ahead of me. He decided to get a rise out of me and so when he saw me looking up the tracks, he stepped on his brakes. 

I turned back just in time to see his brake lights and hit my brakes but it was too late and I hit him. My car's over ride bar was just the right height that it jumped over the top of the bumperettes on his car and so the two cars were now hooked together and stopped right there on the tracks. We got out and try as we could we could we could not disconnect them. About that time some one noticed a train coming way off in the distance. 

We decided that we needed to get the cars off the track and then disconnect them.it was agreed that my date, Pam Angel (that really was her name and appearance) would stand by the cars and count to three and we would drive off the tracks together. Like a scene out of 'Rebel Without a Cause' Pam counted to 3and dropped her turquoise silk scarf and both cars started to roll. Unfortunately Chris pulled forward and I rolled back. He figured we were driving forward when this happened and I figured we were barely on the tracks and it was closer to back up. 

The net result was that one of the trapped bumperettes was pulled clear off his car, falling on the tracks with a ring sounding somewhat like a cross between a trashcan lid on concrete and a distant churchbell heard through cold morning air that I can still recall precisely even as I sit here writing this today. Dumbfounded, we stood and stared at the bumperette lying on the ground, before we remembered the train and got Chris's car and the Bumperette off the tracks.

We went back to Chris's house to try to repair the damage and remount the bumperette. Guy, Chris's 10 year old brother agreed to crawl back behind the gas tank with a dolly while we with a heavy hammer pounded flat the damaged sheet metal where the mounting bolts had pulled through the metal. We got it all back together again in a manner that you could not tell anything had happened. I have always felt guilty about the sheer amount of noise that poor Guy had to endure in the closed boot of that car. 

The poignant thing about this story is that just this week I received an email that Guy had died this week after a long illness at age 56. 

Jeff


----------



## djodenda

Jeff wins.


----------



## bobperry

Yeah, I'll give him that. Great story.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> That's the BS part we have come to expect.
> 
> But give BS a break. He admits to having a problem with numbers.


You mean BS like the BS Bob Perry gave us, when he promised to post the pattern for his origami dinghy. No sign of it yet. 
Must have been Bob Perry BS.

No shortage of that here.
King Halvdan the Black of Norway was royalty.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Smacks:
> Now that really hurts.
> It's a damn good thing I have a night job.


This reminds me of a cartoon I once saw . 
A kid said to his father " Dad, I have two tickets to see the Rolling stones . Do you want to go?"
To which his father replied "No thanks son. Hearing them makes me feel young. Seeing them makes me feel old."


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> You mean BS like the BS Bob Perry gave us, when he promised to post the pattern for his origami dinghy. No sign of it yet.
> Must have been Bob Perry BS.
> 
> No shortage of that here.
> King Halvdan the Black of Norway was royalty.


I think he's been busy.

The Domesday book didn't include any continental tribes.


----------



## bobperry

Wrong again BS. In fact I did post the pattern for one of the first row boat models. You can go back and find it if it's that important to you.

You are just an angry little man BS.

Here is some more pics of Frankie. This should make you really angry.


----------



## outbound

Beautiful - I understand the evolution of " modern" vessels has been toward the " slice of pie" shape whereas the sliver is a sliver which should fly upwind. Some how the sliver shape looks more organic and pleasing to my eye. ? Does physics allow some compromise or is it the inevitable future that the future offerings of the production builders with be those industrial shapes. The HRs,Morris 's, recently defunct najads remain appealing but am I alone in thinking the angular current boats with lights in the hull instead of just the house look like industrial design?


----------



## bobperry

Out:
Ironically I am doing my SAILING magazine reviews this weekend and I am addressing that exact issue. I have three boats to review, 35.5' LOA, 41'LOA and 51'LOA. I am trying to track the trends and ideas the three boats most asuredly have in common. You can argue as Paulo does that they don't look alike but in fact they almost, all three, look like they came from the same builder. Performance is dumbed down, and volume is maximized. Interiors are oriented around numbers of berths and lockers are dissapearing. I have been watching this happen for a few years. Don't tell me these big, fat assed sterns are fast in moderate and light air. They may provide huge cockpits and big quarter berths but they also provide a large amount of wetted surface. But unfortuinately among the current Euro builders this is the preferred type.


----------



## copacabana

bobperry said:


> Out:
> Ironically I am doing my SAILING magazine reviews this weekend and I am addressing that exact issue. I have three boats to review, 35.5' LOA, 41'LOA and 51'LOA. I am trying to track the trends and ideas the three boats most asuredly have in common. You can argue as Paulo does that they don't look alike but in fact they almost, all three, look like they came from the same builder. Performance is dumbed down, and volume is maximized. Interiors are oriented around numbers of berths and lockers are dissapearing. I have been watching this happen for a few years. Don't tell me these big, fat assed sterns are fast in moderate and light air. They may provide huge cockpits and big quarter berths but they also provide a large amount of wetted surface. But unfortuinately among the current Euro builders this is the preferred type.


Amen to that!

So it was soap you sent Brent for Christmas? Has he thanked you for it? Next year, send it to me and I'll return the favour with a nice box of Brazilian cigars!

Please keep posting pictures of Silver. She's a beauty!


----------



## djodenda

It was an interesting kind of shampoo. Seems to be ideal for liveaboards. How did you like the shampoo, Brent?

J.R. LIGGETT: Old-Fashioned Natural Bar Shampoo and Body Care Products


----------



## bobperry

Copa:
That sounds like a deal to me. No, BS has not thanked me. But he did acknowledge getting it and that's good enough for me. I don't think he was brought up taughtr to say "thanks". No problem. It takes all kinds.

It's great soap. It's the only soap I use. I also use the shaving foam. My dogs don't like the dog shampoo though.


----------



## outbound

Kind of like the two wheel thing. Seems just about all new boats have them. See the reason with wide sterns but then have two sets of linkages to screw up. Have one wheel. Try not to touch it much. When at rest take it off any way. Wife bought me a cool gift from edson. Sits attached to push pit.
Bob as always look forward to your writings.
A big fan


----------



## bobperry

Out:
All three boats this month have twin wheels.
I first sailed a twin wheel boat in 1974 when I raced the Carter 39 RABBIT. That was 40 years ago.

Thanks for the kind words.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> They may provide huge cockpits and big quarter berths but they also provide a large amount of wetted surface. But unfortuinately, *for most wives*, this is the preferred type.


I believe I fixed it for you.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> No shortage of that here.
> King Halvdan the Black of Norway was royalty.


So you're a Norwegian King now? Dude, you can either claim to be an aboriginal oppressed by the Norwegians, or Norwegian royalty who proudly oppressed the aboriginals. You really can't claim both.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> So you're a Norwegian King now? Dude, you can either claim to be an aboriginal oppressed by the Norwegians, or Norwegian royalty who proudly oppressed the aboriginals. You really can't claim both.


And you claim all your ancestors came from only one country for the last 1300 years? Ya, sure they did! What a crock!
Sounds like serious inbreeding, which explains a lot.
Widening the gene pool is the best thing which ever happened to humanity. You should try it sometime!
In the Canadian constitution, aboriginal is defined as Indian , Inuit and Metis.


----------



## Brent Swain

Thanks for the soap Bob. Works well. Think I may order more.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> So Brent, are you agreeing with me that back pressure is not a problem with small diesels?
> I am working my way through this. But I think there is a back pressure myth.
> 
> I hope to hell that we are not going to agree on something. I couldn't handle that.
> 
> Did you try the soap?


On my last boat the exhaust came out alongside the cockpit , and was led just below the waterline. When I was motor sailing and the boat heeled, it went much further below the waterline, with zero effect on RPM
Yes Bob ,you do get it right sometimes. You just don't understand steel or full time cruising priorities.
I stopped by a passport 47 yesterday and bought this wind generator. The stanchions were bolted to the bulwark instead of the decks, a wise move , reducing the odds of stanchion base leaks . They were, however only 31 inches high , 3 inches less than mine and 5 inches less than Smack considers adequate. Hope you don't lose any sleep over not having Smack's approval.
I certainly don't!
Welcome to the club. We have at least that much in common.
The soap's great! 
Thanks!


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> They have absolutely nothing similar to a boat hull. Not the shape nor the loads. Forget drink cans and gas bottles we are talking boats here.
> 
> Brent you have been told before why pressure vessels are invalid comparisons to boat hulls. Engineering isn't a belief system if you come up with an idea you have to show it's valid. Just saying something repeatedly doesn't make it a fact.
> 
> Pressure vessels are a completely different scenario in scale, shape, relative plate thickness and in the level of restraint of the ends. They are also carefully designed for their purpose that includes the end cap shapes. End cap shapes resist buckling but they bear no resemblance to the shallow curves of a boats lines.
> 
> In a metal boat hull a huge amount of reserve strength is thrown away if the plate cannot ultimately form a membrane under large strain. If you have tension of one side and compression on the other there is a large amount of material contributing very little to resist collapse. But pre-compressed tension members make this even worse and that's why your designs are so weak for the material they use and why a small amount of additional material added sensibly to your design adds a large amount of strength.
> 
> This is a long way from the marketing hype claiming extra strength with less material. Just a classic case of the emperor's clothes.
> 
> Here's Bernard Moitessier's steel sailboat "Joshua". But Joshua was extensively transverse framed so Brent was misinformed again.
> 
> The damage at the turn of the bilge is from the plate stretching between the close transverse frames as the hull impacted on a rocky shore. You can see that where blows hit the transverses no damage occurred, where the blows struck the plate ( repeatedly) the plate has stretched between the transverses absorbing the impact energy, the transverses also limit the extent of the damage.
> 
> Stretching is significant because to stretch the plate past yield it must be in tension. You cannot develop tension without being able to develop a membrane stress by restraining the plate with supporting structure. Buckling collapse uses significantly less impact energy.
> 
> You can see how close the transverse frames are. ****** mentioned before was also extensively transverse framed with a similar transverse frame spacing as Joshua.
> 
> Steel is immensely tough but you have to design with it properly to get it's full strength. If you want to get full tensile strength of the plate in can only develop that in TENSION !


Have you ever been to Cabo? I have, and have walked on the beach where Joshua went ashore. Not a rock in sight, only sand . Again you distort the facts to suit your argument, just as your claim that Winston's boat had extra framing and plate thickness, compared to what I had designed. That was another fabrication to support your argument. She had exactly the same structural and plate thickness I designed in her . She came home with zero dents . Had she transverse framing ,she would have been a mess of dents. Without framing to stretch against ,she simply springs back.
I met a guy named Welch, in Tonga who built a Spray in Victoria. In Hawaii she had blown aground and became severely dented between frames. The combination of framing and lighter plate was the main cause of the sever denting between frames . Your drum skin theory would require the plate to be fully welded to the frames and stringers. This I show military ships are done and you can se every frame and stringer in them from a quarter mile away, the distortion is that bad,.
So just tell the sea it is a pressure vessel, and the steel will decide to behave differently, and the sea will treat it more kindly?
Ya ,sure Mike!
Your problem in comprehending the principle, is you have a blind spot when it comes to the fact that the longitudinals are welded to the plate , fixed solid points. They are not floating free! Until you get that, you are mentally incapable of understanding the structural principles of the stiffness added by longitudinals. 
Any curve stiffens and strengthens a hull. The longer the span the greater the strength it gets from the ever increasing amount of curve.
How many fibreglass boats have transverse frames in their topsides. If they did where would they crack? At the frames! How do they get their strength. Shape!
A friend bough a 35 ft Endurance fibreglass bare hull from Fraser Yachts . When he asked the owner and builder of dozens, over many decades, if he could leave out some bulkheads, the owner told him "Good idea. The only place they ever crack is at the bulkheads."
As I have pointed out ( completely over your head, it seems) you get the greatest benefit from structural running along the curve, and the least running it across the curve, in open ocean. In a hard chine boat, the curve runs longitudinally, in a round bilge boat the curve runs transversely . So for a round bilged boat in open ocean , transverse framing is best, until you hit a hard, sharp object while underway, with a forward motion, at right angles to the frame. Then when the sharp object hits the frame the frame gives the plate something to stretch and tear against, drastically increasing the odds of holing.
So tell us Mike. How many steel boats to your own design have you built ?How many have been built ? What is the greatest number of decades you have been cruising in and maintaining any one of them? Why have I never encountered one of them ? How many of my boats have you seen, either cruising or being built /
No answer means NONE!


----------



## bobperry

Glad you like the soap Brent.
Still must frost you that your buddy bought the Passport.
Having your approval doesn't mean much to me. I've seen your work. I'd rather disagree with by buddy Smacker. I am not joining that club.

But now, enough talk, time for some beautiful boat reality:


The rig went in Frankie today. We solved the lifeline height question by not having any. None. Now we measure for the sails. Won't be too long till we are smoking down the Sound.

I'm a bit confused by BS's preoccupation with his ancestry. I don't care where a person comes from. I only care about what kind of person they are. If my cousin Dennis was middleweight amateur boxing champ of Sydney back in the day it sure doesn't make me a boxer.

My Grandpa was Angelo Dante Giuseppe Nanelli (Calabrese testa dura). So by BS standards I am far more Italian than he is either Norwegian or Indian. But I sure as hell don't consider myself an Italian. (I could be related to Pavarotti!) I still can't sing worth a damn. While it would be romantic to think of myself as Roberto Perri, I'm just plain Bob, a mixed breed mutt, and I'll let my work describe who and what I am and be very content with that.


----------



## outbound

Returning to exhaust. Nope don't mean from beans. Was down at the yard today puzzling out details of putting a diesel genet in before hopefully taking off cruising. Yard manager said I need to put wet muffler below genset as it's gravity feed and then suggested two through hulls using a water separator. One for water below water line and one above for exhaust air. Said doing it that way gets rid of exhaust noise. Hate putting holes below the waterline in boats. Is it worth it? From what you boys are saying I should be able to forget the water separator and just run exhaust in a loop above waterline with anti siphon then to below waterline through hull. It a dinky small genset. A lombardini 4000 AC unit. Probably made by Bobs distant cousin. Just a single cylinder putting out 33A .


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I stopped by a passport 47 yesterday and bought this wind generator. The stanchions were bolted to the bulwark instead of the decks, a wise move , reducing the odds of stanchion base leaks . They were, however only 31 inches high , 3 inches less than mine and 5 inches less than Smack considers adequate. Hope you don't lose any sleep over not having Smack's approval.
> I certainly don't!
> Welcome to the club. We have at least that much in common.


Actually, my point is that if you're gonna insist on 34" high stanchions because they are "safer" for a person walking around upright on deck, you should just up that to the NBC standard of 36" for handrails and be legit. Yours being 2" lower are obviously much more dangerous than the internationally recognized standard...yet you somehow seem to think this disregard for safety is "smart design". That's extremely irresponsible for a designer.

Of course, I think 36" stanchions on a boat are a freakin' joke...just like 34" stanchions.

Now 31" and below - that starts to make sense.


----------



## bobperry

Out:
This sounds very much like the exhust system I had on the PERRYWINKLE. My exhaust ran dry. But I did have what we call a "pisser". Thiks was a very small and steaday stream of cooling water than exited the side of my cockpit well right above the cockpit drain. As long as I saw water coming out the "pisser" I knew my cooling system was working. My buddy had the same sysetem installed when he repowered his Swan 44. I owned the PERRYWINKLE for 15 years and I never had a problem.

My engine was as quiet as you could exppect from a single cyl diesel on a 26' boat. It had a very pleasant and comforting sound. I never much thoight about it.

Does this sound like the same system your mechanic is advocating?

I think I am related to the Lamborghinnis.

Smacks:
I never thought for a moment that you were in favor of 36" high stanchions. Humor and irony often escape BS.


----------



## blt2ski

Hmmmm, using BS's links to past relatives, I must be an attny/orator because of 




Yeah right........

Bob, is Frankie out of the shed for good?

marty


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> My Grandpa was Angelo Dante Giuseppe Nanelli (Calabrese testa dura). So by BS standards I am far more Italian than he is either Norwegian or Indian. But I sure as hell don't consider myself an Italian. (I could be related to Pavarotti!) I still can't sing worth a damn. While it would be romantic to think of myself as Roberto Perri, I'm just plain Bob, a mixed breed mutt, and I'll let my work describe who and what I am and be very content with that.


None of that gives you a free ride at "******'s" expense though - just makes you one more oppressor of the downtrodden aboriginals.

That's the difference.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
You don't think the Italians were oppressed over here?
Apparently you have never watched THE GODFATHER.
Those are my people.

Marty:
FRNAKIE is out of the shed for good and waiting for final survey for insurance reasons. Then it will be splashed.


----------



## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> None of that gives you a free ride at "******'s" expense though - just makes you one more oppressor of the downtrodden aboriginals.
> 
> That's the difference.


Nah - judging by Brent's statements about what he is owed by the government (due to his "rich aboriginal heritage"), it seems to be more about doing whatever you can to shake down whatever target you can for some juice so you don't have to work. And splitting your complaints across multiple governments by claiming multiple heritages is simply "diversifying your juice portfolio".

Since I'm as "aboriginal" as Brent, I'm looking into it. It might be a nice retirement plan.


----------



## bobperry

Smacks:
Maybe my reservation is Portofino. I've been there. It's very nice. The food is great. Beats Oklahoma.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Smacks:
> Maybe my reservation is Portofino. I've been there. It's very nice. The food is great. Beats Oklahoma.


Does it have a casino?


----------



## bobperry

Smacks:
No, but Monte Carlo is not far and fun drive away.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Smacks:
> Maybe my reservation is Portofino. I've been there. It's very nice. The food is great. Beats Oklahoma.


I love the place but it is practically impossible to be there with a boat unless you are a millionaire. The last time I have been there I saw quite a funny scenario: at 8.30 AM the movement was big around the several huge motor yachts, with the butlers in full uniform pressing beautiful waitresses (full dressed, most of then with mini skirts) around to get everything ready for breakfast. They were shopping around on the small waterfront and dressing the tables on the boats.

Surrealistic thing because there was almost nobody on the waterfront, except the waitresses, and lots of them.






Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

Paulo:
I stayed at the Hotel Splendido up on the hill. It was quite nice. I don't think the 26' PERRYWINKLE would fit in there.


----------



## smackdaddy

How can this:










Possibly be better than this:



















???


----------



## mark2gmtrans

I just popped in to say "Hi" to you all, Bob, Smack, JonB, even ol BS, I read some of the posts every day on my phone, but I just have not had time to really get on and get into the discussions like in the past.... work, it really is a four letter word haha.

Good to see everyone is well, and I wish you all a very good New Year, may your 2014 be blessed and profitable in all that you aspire to do... well all that is good.

I notice the BS discussions on the impenetrable hulls of his boats.....and still get a laugh out of them, keep on trying Brent, eventually you will even convince yourself that what you are saying is true LOL.

Bob, the Frankie looks great, another beautiful Bob Perry design.

I am down in Laredo, the weather is great, so that means probably very soon I will be in Maine or somewhere LOL.

Keep up the interesting discussions, I really enjoy reading it all.

Mark


----------



## bobperry

Hey Mark:
Enjoy some Mexican food for me.

Thanks for the kind words on FRANKIE. It's coming together. I'll go down and see it on Thursday on my way to the symphony. I'll be the guy walking around the boat way overdressed.


----------



## SloopJonB

Presumably dressed like a Maestro?


----------



## Brent Swain

mark2gmtrans said:


> I just popped in to say "Hi" to you all, Bob, Smack, JonB, even ol BS, I read some of the posts every day on my phone, but I just have not had time to really get on and get into the discussions like in the past.... work, it really is a four letter word haha.
> 
> Good to see everyone is well, and I wish you all a very good New Year, may your 2014 be blessed and profitable in all that you aspire to do... well all that is good.
> 
> I notice the BS discussions on the impenetrable hulls of his boats.....and still get a laugh out of them, keep on trying Brent, eventually you will even convince yourself that what you are saying is true LOL.
> 
> Bob, the Frankie looks great, another beautiful Bob Perry design.
> 
> I am down in Laredo, the weather is great, so that means probably very soon I will be in Maine or somewhere LOL.
> 
> Keep up the interesting discussions, I really enjoy reading it all.
> 
> Mark


No one said they were impenetrable, just a lot harder to penetrate than most ( like the skull of a Texan).
You say wood and plastic are tougher than 3/16th steel?
Ya sure!

It's been a fantastic year here, a warm sunny April , a warm dry summer,and a warm, sunny, record dry fall, and only a week or two of cold, otherwise warm and dryer than normal since. All that arctic air missed us, stayed east of the Rockies, and skeddadled on down to Texas.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Nah - judging by Brent's statements about what he is owed by the government (due to his "rich aboriginal heritage"), it seems to be more about doing whatever you can to shake down whatever target you can for some juice so you don't have to work. And splitting your complaints across multiple governments by claiming multiple heritages is simply "diversifying your juice portfolio".
> 
> Since I'm as "aboriginal" as Brent, I'm looking into it. It might be a nice retirement plan.


In the South ( Smack's neck of the woods) they are known around the world for a tradition of narrowing the gene pool as much as possible, to produce a SUPERIOR RACE, so much so that I hear in some Southern states they are considering changing the divorce laws, so when a couple divorce, they can still be brother and sister.
So tell us Smack, how many times has your gene pool been thus narrowed?
That could explain a lot.

In the Manitoba act, making Manitoba a province , my great great grandfather received recognition of his Metis River lot 50 in Headingly, west of Winnipeg, as part of the Manitoba act . The Selkirk settlers had 31 total crop failures in the first 50 years. It was grampa Tom and his friends' buffalo hunting ,bringing in 60 tons of pemmican which kept them alive. While he was out hunting ,they put a white Selkirk settler on his land. When he got back, they told him he was not a reliable settler , and should have been farming instead of hunting, so they gave his land away. That land ,now extremely valuable urban land, would still be in the family, had it not been stolen from him, for the crime of doing what it took to keep people alive. 
Governments today are just as dense and myopic.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Glad you like the soap Brent.
> Still must frost you that your buddy bought the Passport.
> Having your approval doesn't mean much to me. I've seen your work. I'd rather disagree with by buddy Smacker. I am not joining that club.
> 
> But now, enough talk, time for some beautiful boat reality:
> 
> 
> The rig went in Frankie today. We solved the lifeline height question by not having any. None. Now we measure for the sails. Won't be too long till we are smoking down the Sound.
> 
> I'm a bit confused by BS's preoccupation with his ancestry. I don't care where a person comes from. I only care about what kind of person they are. If my cousin Dennis was middleweight amateur boxing champ of Sydney back in the day it sure doesn't make me a boxer.
> 
> My Grandpa was Angelo Dante Giuseppe Nanelli (Calabrese testa dura). So by BS standards I am far more Italian than he is either Norwegian or Indian. But I sure as hell don't consider myself an Italian. (I could be related to Pavarotti!) I still can't sing worth a damn. While it would be romantic to think of myself as Roberto Perri, I'm just plain Bob, a mixed breed mutt, and I'll let my work describe who and what I am and be very content with that.


No lifelines is insanity. I have lost 5 friends due to lack of lifelines on their boats.
So you are a mixed breed mutt, just like me . The wider the gene pool the better . Welcome to the superior race!
We have other things in common, like an appreciation for Randy Bachman and his Saturday night CBC radio show, Vinyltap, the best rock show ever, funded entirely by Canadian taxpayers on publicly owned CBC.
We both share an appreciation of this fine example of socialism at it's best.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> In the Manitoba act, making Manitoba a province , my great great grandfather received recognition of his Metis River lot 50 in Headingly, west of Winnipeg, as part of the Manitoba act . The Selkirk settlers had 31 total crop failures in the first 50 years. It was grampa Tom and his friends' buffalo hunting ,bringing in 60 tons of pemmican which kept them alive. While he was out hunting ,they put a white Selkirk settler on his land. When he got back, they told him he was not a reliable settler , and should have been farming instead of hunting, so they gave his land away. That land ,now extremely valuable urban land, would still be in the family, had it not been stolen from him, for the crime of doing what it took to keep people alive.
> Governments today are just as dense and myopic.


That is a legitimate grievance and claim. What is NOT legitimate is the attitude that anyone with more than a few drops of aboriginal blood is entitled to a free ride from society - no taxes, full use of everything that taxes pay for, little or no accountability for criminal behaviour, free reign to hunt & fish at will and all the other "entitlement" crap that is so ingrained in aboriginal culture.

In Chretiens autobiography he described how when he was Minister of Indian Affairs & Northern Development he met with the union of chiefs (whatever they were called at the time) and offered to settle ALL their claims and shut down the department of Indian affairs. He had the clout to have done it too.

They said no.

Much better for them to keep things as they were so they could keep squeezing more juice, just like Quebec.

Other than the LEGITIMATE grievances like your families, it all falls under the heading of "That was then and this is now".


----------



## bobperry

Yeah Brent I have to agree with you. I enjoy CBC2 everyday and I mean everyday. I get a little tired of their "content" laws. But hell it's not my football so I don't get to call the rules. I feel I am very lucky for having clear acess to to great radio station. I am sitting at the wireless every Saturday for the opera.

But here is the deal. The call it, "Live from the Met". And they call it that at 1pm my time. Unfortunately if you tune into the Seattle station Classic KING at 11am you can hear the very same opera. Someone is BS'ing me. How can it be "live" two hours after it was performed? I don't like to be lied to. They could say, Recorded live at the Met" and be honest. Showbizz? It's a silly detail. I still listen.

Randy read my letter on his program. I, of course missed it, but I heard from a couple of friends. So I got that going for me.

Last time I checked I don't think I qualify for your "superior race". Pretty darn sure you don't either.
"Somebody must owe me something!"


You lost five friends? I am very sorry to hear that. Are you absolutely positive you can blame the height or lack of the lifelines on that? Most dynamic situations require several variables. Too bad about your friends.


----------



## bobperry

I had to edit that last port. It was terribly callous.


----------



## Brent Swain

My neighbour bought the passport, long before I met him, for a song, meaning that is now the current going price of a Passport 47.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Yeah Brent I have to agree with you. I enjoy CBC2 everyday and I mean everyday. I get a little tired of their "content" laws. But hell it's not my football so I don't get to call the rules. I feel I am very lucky for having clear acess to to great radio station. I am sitting at the wireless every Saturday for the opera.
> 
> But here is the deal. The call it, "Live from the Met". And they call it that at 1pm my time. Unfortunately if you tune into the Seattle station Classic KING at 11am you can hear the very same opera. Someone is BS'ing me. How can it be "live" two hours after it was performed? I don't like to be lied to. They could say, Recorded live at the Met" and be honest. Showbizz? It's a silly detail. I still listen.
> 
> Randy read my letter on his program. I, of course missed it, but I heard from a couple of friends. So I got that going for me.
> 
> Last time I checked I don't think I qualify for your "superior race". Pretty darn sure you don't either.
> "Somebody must owe me something!"
> 
> 
> You lost five friends? I am very sorry to hear that. Are you absolutely positive you can blame the height or lack of the lifelines on that? Most dynamic situations require several variables. Too bad about your friends.


4 of the boats were found with nothing wrong with them and no one aboard.
I had offered to weld lifelines on for free, on one of them. He said "No thanks ,I hold on pretty good." On one the boat was tied to the dock with no lifelines, and the owner was found at the bottom of the harbour . It was icy, and I had warned him several times to get his lifelines on.
None had any lifelines .I am absolutely positive that all would still be alive, had they had lifelines.

Looks like a nice batch of stew in that pot, perfect, like my boats.


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
I argued and lost for lifelines on Frankie. The owner has sailed Dragons and square meter class boats all his life, without lifelines. I could draw (I can really draw) and I could specify till the cows come home but this client does not want lifelines.

I have twice been in man overboard situations. My sense of humor runs dry.

I'm sure you can only dream of the resale value of a BS boat compared to the value of a Passport. People have actually heard of a Passport.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> In the South ( Smack's neck of the woods) they are known around the world for a tradition of narrowing the gene pool as much as possible, to produce a SUPERIOR RACE, so much so that I hear in some Southern states they are considering changing the divorce laws, so when a couple divorce, they can still be brother and sister.
> So tell us Smack, how many times has your gene pool been thus narrowed?
> That could explain a lot.


So it seems that you just called me, my family, and others "in the South" inbred Nazis.

And you thought that crossing a line like that was okay how?

You're a sad, pathetic, little man, Brent Swain - who has nothing left in your life but bitterness and ignorance. And I would absolutely say that to your face.

I've more than proven your chronic dishonesty in this thread with your own words. And you've just proven your cowardice and stupidity by stooping this low...again, your own words.

I think my work here is done.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Brent:
> I argued and lost for lifelines on Frankie. The owner has sailed Dragons and square meter class boats all his life, without lifelines. I could draw (I can really draw) and I could specify till the cows come home but this client does not want lifelines.
> 
> I have twice been in man overboard situations. My sense of humor runs dry.
> 
> I'm sure you can only dream of the resale value of a BS boat compared to the value of a Passport. People have actually heard of a Passport.


As I pointed out in my book , one should always differentiate between resale value and resale price . Resale price is what you can get for a boat . Resale value is the gap between what you can get for her and what she cost you in the first place. The higher the cost in initially, the less the gap between cost and resale price, and thus the less the resale value, until you end up with a loss. I built my first steel boat for $4,500 and sold her for $23,000. The first 31 I built cost the owner $7,000 and sold for $21,000. Winston built his first 36 ft Brentboat for $17,000 and sold her for $65,000. I am sure the passport sold for much less than she was built for, I believe less than some 36 ft Brentboats were sold for.

Yes ,working for suicidal owners can be frustrating. I have had the luxury of being able to mostly work only for people who share my priorities, and refusing the rest. Sometimes I turned people down for that reason, even when I was low on cash, but in the long run, I was glad I did.


----------



## bobperry

Brenty:
That is really a very stupid generalization about people from the South.

To me you seem like the hyper defensive one. Always angry. Why do you feel so un-superior? I think you must feel very insecure to lash out in some a childish way. I could list a long trail of brilliant Anericns from the South. It would take me days, weeks.

You are so angry ytou will try any line of attack. You love the personal attack. I think that's because there is nothing to your substantive stance. "When all else fails go personal. " It never works but you can always hope.

That is wonderful.
Pathetic.


----------



## Brent Swain

Smack, you make a habit out of crossing lines, including with my ancestry, experience, fairness, integrity, etc.,etc. How much of that do you expect me to put up with? What goes around comes around. This aspect of the world and reality wont change to suit your sensitivities. Don't expect it to.


----------



## bobperry

`--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Smack, you make a habit out of crossing lines, including with my ancestry, experience, fairness, integrity, etc.,etc. How much of that do you expect me to put up with? "

So, if I understand the BS, Smackers is responsible for what you post. That is an interesting concept but it does not work. No, BS, your infantile, personal attacks are your own. You need to own them. Smackers is not responsible for what you say. You are responsible for what you say. It is going to follow you.


----------



## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> Have you ever been to Cabo? I have, and have walked on the beach where Joshua went ashore. Not a rock in sight, only sand . Again you distort the facts to suit your argument, just as your claim that Winston's boat had extra framing and plate thickness, compared to what I had designed. &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..


Brent if you were there, hadn't the hurricane stripped a lot of the sand from the beach and exposed reefs and boulders that ground up most of the boats washed ashore? 
I have a cruising friend (Robert) that knew Moitessier well, Moitessier was very cavalier with Joshua with collisions and groundings thinking it was immune from damage. When Joshua went ashore he was actually in the bar and his boat was just anchored, he wrote some BS about being aboard !

As for Winston and construction, I didn't make that up the pro marine welder who inspected Winston said on BD net that she was built so. Easy to prove if you know the boat and owner so well they will have all the details.



Brent Swain said:


> Your drum skin theory&#8230;..&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..


....isn't my drum skin theory it's the accumulated knowledge and science that makes engineering and it's the theory of plates and shells that any engineer anywhere will tell you exactly the same



Brent Swain said:


> Your problem in comprehending the principle, is you have a blind spot when it comes to the fact that the longitudinals are welded to the plate , fixed solid points. They are not floating free! Until you get that, you are mentally incapable of understanding the structural principles of the stiffness added by longitudinals. &#8230;..&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..


My problem adopting your engineering principles, that's a good one from someone who claimed his boats had an AVS of 182 degrees !

I comprehend it all intuitively, that's the problem, you don't, and I can show you that you don't, and have shown you that you don't. 
And you constantly mix up diminutive steel tanks with proposed scaled up 60 foot frameless behemoths that simply won't work. That's where you should be , addressing the silly claims that the design is intrinsically strong enough to scale to twice the size of the initial design you started with.

You also still haven't commented on the fact that other designs of yours rotated their keels because you misunderstood the structural adequacy. You lied when you said only the boat that tore holes after a high speed grounding suffered that fate didn't you !



Brent Swain said:


> ....
> So tell us Mike. How many steel boats to your own design have you built ?How many have been built ? What is the greatest number of decades you have been cruising in and maintaining any one of them? Why have I never encountered one of them ? How many of my boats have you seen, either cruising or being built No answer means NONE!


I've designed more that you, mainly one off custom designs for shipyards, nothing like the variety or number of sailboats of Bob Perry here but I also design other vessels like patrol boats, ships, floating docks if anyone want's something designed. I'm not just a yacht designer I will design yachts when pushed or starving .

I've never seen a Brent boat ever, because the 200 you claim built around the world amounted to something like under 40 if I remember rightly from Tad Roberts estimates, and the majority are in Canada, none in Tasmania or I would have done an inclining test on it by now !.


----------



## bobperry

Tom:
I've never seen a BS boat either.
Funny. I have seen a lot of boats. It's a lifertime of work for me.
But no BS boats.

Guess I'm just born lucky.

Hey! How about we start a SailNet ancestry thread. I am totally confused as to what ancestry has to do with yacht design but on it's own thread I'm game.

If we had a dedicated thread I could talk about my Scottish ancestor, Bruce the Beige. Or as he is better known today, Egg Shell Bruce.

Yeah we need a special thread.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> `--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> "Smack, you make a habit out of crossing lines, including with my ancestry, experience, fairness, integrity, etc.,etc. How much of that do you expect me to put up with? "
> 
> So, if I understand the BS, Smackers is responsible for what you post. That is an interesting concept but it does not work. No, BS, your infantile, personal attacks are your own. You need to own them. Smackers is not responsible for what you say. You are responsible for what you say. It is going to follow you.


It's alright. I'll be the first to admit that I've been pretty hard on Brent (for good reason). But the difference is I've always used his own words...comparing what he himself was claiming in various places...and simply illustrating the dishonesty in his claims about his experience, fairness, integrity, etc. _with those very words_. I've not had to make anything up...unlike him.

You'll also not find where I've insulted or attacked his family/heritage/etc. - like he has done at least twice now in this thread (my family, your wife, etc.).

The guy seriously pissed me off. True. But, when I stop and think about the kind of life he's stuck in...I'd probably be bitter too. I pity him. I really do.

It was very nice of you to send him some soap Bob. You're a good man. I'll try to follow that example.


----------



## SloopJonB

Geez Smack, if you're a Texan who can't take an insult.......

I mean really.... Texas is SUCH a sweet target of opportunity.


----------



## jak3b

bobperry said:


> Tom:
> I've never seen a BS boat either.
> Funny. I have seen a lot of boats. It's a lifertime of work for me.
> But no BS boats.
> 
> Guess I'm just born lucky.
> 
> Hey! How about we start a SailNet ancestry thread. I am totally confused as to what ancestry has to do with yacht design but on it's own thread I'm game.
> 
> If we had a dedicated thread I could talk about my Scottish ancestor, Bruce the Beige. Or as he is better known today, Egg Shell Bruce.
> 
> Yeah we need a special thread.


Well, my ancester Liam the greenish-grey,while drunk fell out of a curragh in Gallway Bay and drowned as St Brenden sailed by on his way to the west.From the astral planes he haunted Ray Hunt with visions.Am I elligable for any bennys?


----------



## MikeJohns

smackdaddy said:


> So it seems that you just called me, my family, and others "in the South" inbred Nazis.
> 
> And you thought that crossing a line like that was okay how?
> 
> You're a sad, pathetic, little man, Brent Swain - who has nothing left in your life but bitterness and ignorance. And I would absolutely say that to your face.
> 
> I've more than proven your chronic dishonesty in this thread with your own words. And you've just proven your cowardice and stupidity by stooping this low...again, your own words.
> 
> I think my work here is done.


Yes sad and this thread has been an eye opener to the amount Brent is prepared to simply lie without any compunction whatsoever, and then carries on after being caught out as though nothing happened and lies again.

A friend of mine who uses forums in her psychology classes was quite interested to read what has been posted here, she says Brent has a typical Antisocial personality disorder both from his apparent personal history and his forum posts. ( I won't say what she said about me  )

I looked it up and found Sociopath as the old definition. I liked this definition:

Profile of the Sociopath especially the malignant personality at the bottom of the page, sounds like a great disorder.

Brent fit's a very alarming number of dot points on that page. Don't let him get to you. If he has an antisocial personality disorder then you should expect vindictive personal assaults, he just can't help it.


----------



## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> Geez Smack, if you're a Texan who can't take an insult.......
> 
> I mean really.... Texas is SUCH a sweet target of opportunity.


_I_ can take an insult. But, in Texas - and with most every sailor I've ever met - a non-low-life man never insults family. At least not twice.

Maybe it's different where you are.


----------



## smackdaddy

MikeJohns said:


> Yes sad and this thread has been an eye opener to the amount Brent is prepared to simply lie without any compunction whatsoever, and then carries on after being caught out as though nothing happened and lies again.
> 
> A friend of mine who uses forums in her psychology classes was quite interested to read what has been posted here, she says Brent has a typical Antisocial personality disorder both from his apparent personal history and his forum posts. ( I won't say what she said about me  )
> 
> I looked it up and found Sociopath as the old definition. I liked this definition:
> 
> Profile of the Sociopath especially the malignant personality at the bottom of the page, sounds like a great disorder.
> 
> Brent fit's a very alarming number of dot points on that page. Don't let him get to you. If he has an antisocial personality disorder then you should expect vindictive personal assaults, he just can't help it.


"malignant personality".

That makes sense. I'm over it this morning. Like I said, I honestly pity the guy. If he's the poster boy for what "full time 'cruising'" does to a person - NO ONE is going to want to go cruising. Period.


----------



## outbound

Smack- It's a good thing you didn't grow up in NYC. When playing "dozens" family was a fair target and often the only target. Would say the nastiest stuff about each other then laugh and go chill. Better then being physical and inventive with sometimes great wit demonstrated. Have no problem Brent saying what he wants at that level it just demeans him . Have a big problem with him saying stuff that could put peoples lives or fortune at risk. That's why I very much appreciate Mike's involvement on this thread.


----------



## smackdaddy

outbound said:


> Smack- It's a good thing you didn't grow up in NYC. When playing "dozens" family was a fair target and often the only target. Would say the nastiest stuff about each other then laugh and go chill. Better then being physical and inventive with sometimes great wit demonstrated. Have no problem Brent saying what he wants at that level it just demeans him . Have a big problem with him saying stuff that could put peoples lives or fortune at risk. That's why I very much appreciate Mike's involvement on this thread.


If we're playing dozens, that's a different story. In that case, I admire a good snap.

But we weren't playing dozens (unless I missed the RSVP).

In the end, I agree with your take on the real problem. So it's all good.


----------



## bljones

Wow, this is getting ugly. I'm not sure one can complain about one's ancestry or family being insulted when one's response is to play armchair psychiatrist and parse the psyche of your opponent. And i am not sure one can complain about one's designs and claims being insulted when one is happy to hurl insults and refuses to back dubious claims.

As one who can lay claim to a few pages of the DSM-5, I find passive-aggressive mental health slaps insulting. Further, if one is going to start slinging labels around here and dissing input based on the psychological health of the participants, you can likely throw out a large percentage of the posts here on this forum.

I mean, we spend an inordinate amount of time and largish sums of money on anachronistic vehicles which at best will carry us at little more than a fast jog. Do we really want to start delving into the sanity of that?


Shall we maybe stick to the physical science side of the argument and leave the sociology and psychology and generalized genealogy aside?


----------



## smackdaddy

I'm not sure if you mean me or Mikie - but if you mean me, I don't see where I've been psychoanalyzing anyone. As I mentioned above, I did think the term "malignant personality" in Mike's post (I didn't read the linked stuff) rang true in the non-clinical sense for BS based purely on the typical responses of his fellow conversationalists.

Now, I cannot lay claim to any of the pages within the vaunted:










...but I can tell a "malignant personality" (as generally understood by the words themselves) from a mile away (most lay people can). Why, in the past, I've even been accused of having one myself on these very forums. So, that kettle is definitely black. No couch required.

*PS - I will add this though. I didn't report BS' post. And I hope he doesn't get whacked for it. I honestly think it's very important to have him on Sailnet. People, especially newer sailors, need to read his claims - and the vetting on those claims by very qualified people like Bob and MikeJ. They can then make up their minds for themselves. Sure he stepped over the line, and probably will again - but it would make no sense to make him a martyr. We're all big boys here.*


----------



## bljones

LOL, I picture Smack getting his "who, me?" face on.








Smack, my point is that the debate gets lost in the argument. Lots of good info here in this thread which risks getting lost in the white noise of insults.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - I just actually read the "malignant personality" entry in that thing Mike linked to. I take it back...BS is not what's defined there. I was just responding to the words themselves above - not their clinical meaning.

But, after further research in the DSM-5 (page 12,549), I found this term by Dr. B.L. Jones that seems more apt:

"Seriously Annoying Goofball Disorder".


----------



## Cruisingdad

Hey guys, I have just one quick question if you don't mind:

What are the pros and cons of steel boats?

Thank you ahead of time for your insight.

Brian


----------



## GBurton

A tumbleweed rolls by.... door slams...


----------



## smackdaddy

Now that's funny GB.



Cruisingdad said:


> Hey guys, I have just one quick question if you don't mind:
> 
> What are the pros and cons of steel boats?
> 
> Thank you ahead of time for your insight.
> 
> Brian


Quick summary?

Steel sailboats are okay for some things.

If you _insist_ on having one - go with a Van de Stadt. But, whatever you do, NEVER build one yourself...unless building boats over many years is all you really care about...or unless you want to be broke and old by the time you're ready to splash it.

That's what I've learned anyway. Well, that and the fact that Hunters are better than Catalinas.


----------



## bobperry

Dad:
Here is one of the cons, from my perspective. You have very little control over the small shaping details when you work with steel. There are European yards that can do it but you don't see that level of shape contgrrol in North American steel boats. If you are happy with hard corners and edges then that's fine but I like a softer look. And when I want a hard corner I want it to be my design and not a limitation of the matertial.

Notice the changing contour in the cabin top of Frankie. That would have been a challenge in steel. It is not conically developed.


----------



## djodenda

I think we also learned that while corrosion can be an issue on steel boats, some methods/processes can significantly reduce the problem, but that some actually make it worse.

And those methods, along with their pros and cons are......


----------



## outbound

Also seems apparent that in settings where steel may be appropriate aluminum may be a better choice. Larger group of modern designs, better sailing performance, easier maintenance with current methods, higher resale value/% of retained value and equal or greater strength with current designs. Only downside is less abrasion resistance.


----------



## bobperry

Out makes a good point. Steel would severely limit how I choose the displacement. I like to draw a shape and then choose a material that allows me to execute the design in that material to the weight target.


----------



## Cruisingdad

bobperry said:


> You have very little control over the small shaping details when you work with steel. There are European yards that can do it but you don't see that level of shape contgrrol in North American steel boats.


I didn't realize that. I wonder if that is because they are more popular over there? Is it a market thing?

Regarding aluminum, can it be made as strong as steel inch:inch, or do you have to make it thicker? Are repairs as easy, I wonder? If so, it would seem to be the material of choice.

Brian


----------



## bobperry

Dad:
I think two things are at work wher shaping the steel is concerned:
You need special tools and refined skills to do highly shaped steel parts.
Steel is marketed here as an inexpensive way to get a strong hull and as such building a steel boat often involved welders that are not schooled in "old world" steel working skills. The nicest steel boat I have seen have come from Germany and Holland where there is a long tradition of building steel yachts.

I think you are also right in that there has been a market in Europe more open to steel boats.
North America has not been very receptive to steel yachts and the resale value reflects this.

Aluminum is easier to work with and has some of the samne durability advantages as steel. Alu will be thicker but lighter and give some nice displacement options as well as shaping advantages.

Here is a 62'er I did in alu in Holland. It has hard edges so there goes that part of my argument. But I think the outcome is "tidier" with more control of the details. But this is not an inexpensive boat.


----------



## Cruisingdad

Beautiful girl, as usual, Bob!!!


----------



## Jeff_H

Cruisingdad said:


> I didn't realize that. I wonder if that is because they are more popular over there? Is it a market thing?
> 
> Regarding aluminum, can it be made as strong as steel inch:inch, or do you have to make it thicker? Are repairs as easy, I wonder? If so, it would seem to be the material of choice.
> 
> Brian


Brian,

Where steel comes into its own is that it is very strong and stiff for any given cross sectional area. There are few if any boat building materials that come anywhere close. But steel is also very dense. Because of that an equal weight of any other boat building material has a much thicker cross section. Since the properties of materials (sheer not withstanding) are calculated as the square, cube or fourth power of the thickness (depending on the purpose of the calculation), it turns out that if you believe in the science, when viewed solely on a pound for pound basis, steel is one of the weakest boat building materials.

Where steel comes into its own is that it is pretty cheap relative to its strength, and it has a very high abrasion resistance.

The weight issue often gets dismissed by traditional cruising sailors, but does come into play in very real ways that directly impacts cruisers. When a boat is designed, its hull lines lock in a specific displacement and rate of displacement gain with additional immersion. In other words any given hull shape can only tolerate carrying a given amount of combined weight of hull, ballast, rig, hardware, engine and consumables, and the question then becomes how do you divvy up this weight between the various parts of the boat and what it carries.

If you compare two boats of equal strength, but constructed of different materials, and the hull of one weighs 40-50% more than the other due to the material (an increase which may be as much as a 10-20% of the overall displacement of the boat) that additional hull weight has to be accomodated somehow. That 'somehow' could be a mix of decreased ballast weight, lower carrying capacity, smaller tankage, less interior appointments and the like. And these trade off's translate to a smaller range, less stability, more roll, and so on. And none of that is good for a cruiser.

But, to answer your question, the case of aluminum it does take greater thickness to achieve the same bending, stiffness and puncture strength. But, if you believe the science, even with that greater thickness, an equal strength aluminum hull will be lighter than the comparable steel boat.

Jeff


----------



## bobperry

Dad:
That girl is now sporting a bright red hull and home to a German family with two young daughters. They cruise full time. The boat is now called MARLIN.


----------



## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> "malignant personality".
> 
> That makes sense. I'm over it this morning. Like I said, I honestly pity the guy. If he's the poster boy for what "full time 'cruising'" does to a person - NO ONE is going to want to go cruising. Period.


Full time *SINGLE-HANDED* cruising. Not the best technique for socialization. 

Can you say "Hermit" children?

I knew you could.


----------



## Cruisingdad

bobperry said:


> Dad:
> That girl is now sporting a bright red hull and home to a German family with two young daughters. They cruise full time. The boat is now called MARLIN.


Another cruising family! I love it!!!

Brian


----------



## Cruisingdad

Jeff_H said:


> Brian,
> 
> Where steel comes into its own is that it is very strong and stiff for any given cross sectional area. There are few if any boat building materials that come anywhere close. But steel is also very dense. Because of that an equal weight of any other boat building material has a much thicker cross section. Since the properties of materials (sheer not withstanding) are calculated as the square, cube or fourth power of the thickness (depending on the purpose of the calculation), it turns out that if you believe in the science, when viewed solely on a pound for pound basis, steel is one of the weakest boat building materials.
> 
> Where steel comes into its own is that it is pretty cheap relative to its strength, and it has a very high abrasion resistance.
> 
> The weight issue often gets dismissed by traditional cruising sailors, but does come into play in very real ways that directly impacts cruisers. When a boat is designed, its hull lines lock in a specific displacement and rate of displacement gain with additional immersion. In other words any given hull shape can only tolerate carrying a given amount of combined weight of hull, ballast, rig, hardware, engine and consumables, and the question then becomes how do you divvy up this weight between the various parts of the boat and what it carries.
> 
> If you compare two boats of equal strength, but constructed of different materials, and the hull of one weighs 40-50% more than the other due to the material (an increase which may be as much as a 10-20% of the overall displacement of the boat) that additional hull weight has to be accomodated somehow. That 'somehow' could be a mix of decreased ballast weight, lower carrying capacity, smaller tankage, less interior appointments and the like. And these trade off's translate to a smaller range, less stability, more roll, and so on. And none of that is good for a cruiser.
> 
> But, to answer your question, the case of aluminum it does take greater thickness to achieve the same bending, stiffness and puncture strength. But, if you believe the science, even with that greater thickness, an equal strength aluminum hull will be lighter than the comparable steel boat.
> 
> Jeff


Thanks Jeff!!

Brian


----------



## MikeJohns

SloopJonB said:


> Full time *SINGLE-HANDED* cruising. Not the best technique for socialization.
> 
> Can you say "Hermit" children?
> 
> I knew you could.


According to people who know him, Brent lives with his sister in a flat. So not a hermit.


----------



## MikeJohns

Cruisingdad said:


> Hey guys, I have just one quick question if you don't mind:
> 
> What are the pros and cons of steel boats?
> 
> Thank you ahead of time for your insight.
> 
> Brian


You can get a lot of boat for your money, it's also the toughest of all materials in collision and grounding with alloy a close second which provides a lot of self insurance.

The downside is steel doesn't tolerate neglect, so not a good material for the myriad of marina boats that act as gin palaces.

Providing the interior is designed to allow access then maintenance of the hull is easy. And to replace parts of the hull it's the cheapest and quickest of all materials providing the skills are available. In some parts of the USA that can be hard and I've seen an insurance companies fly a dutch crew in to repair a steel yacht in the Carrib.

I tried to get a steel sailboat sand blasted in LA 2 years ago and was told it wasn't possible and I had to go to Mexico or Washington ! So look at facilities closely, if the boat has to be hauled away to a remote yard for steel work it's going to bankrupt you but if you can work in the yard skilled steel workers are available cheaply anywhere in the world.

A genset on a steel boat is a real boon for maintenance, and I think it's worth doing a basic welding course and learning a bit about simple easy but effective paint systems.

If you keep on top of the maintenance keep the interior bilges dry and check the interior paint of the hull every 10 years in high condensation areas it'll last indefinately.

Steel it should be for serious cruising since they will be medium heavy to heavy boats which need more sail to get them moving.

Many steel produciton boats are a nightmare of glued interior fitout, teak over ply over steel decks built for a 20 year life, avoid those.
I posted earlier that here I know of 80 and hundred year old steel boats still being extensively cruised which I have surveyed and much of those hulls are still pristine.


----------



## hpeer

We can beat the steel v alloy v plastic issue to death. It comes to personal preference and use and budget.

For us the heavy steel, hard chine boat had worked out well, so far. I've had a couple of " incidents", perhaps my fault, where the boat has had to be tough. I hit a submerged piling at speed, got caught on a pier in a bad gale, and grounded in a rock garden. The pier gave me a dent I took out with bondo, but a lesser boat would have had deck/hull attachment issues. Else wise I came out clean. The story with the 33' is different, but I'm no less pleased. She has taken care of this old fool.

For how and where we sail, given our budget, it works.

Now if I won the lottery? A Boreal 44'!


----------



## Classic30

bobperry said:


> I think you are also right in that there has been a market in Europe more open to steel boats.
> North America has not been very receptive to steel yachts and the resale value reflects this.
> 
> Aluminum is easier to work with and has some of the samne durability advantages as steel. Alu will be thicker but lighter and give some nice displacement options as well as shaping advantages.


FWIW, there are a lot of steel, aluminium and wood and plastic (horror!) down here.

A fair few decades ago living in North Queensland my parents had a local machine shop build a 50' steel cruising yawl - one my Dad designed and Joe Adams drew up. No chines.. just a nice curved hull and clipper bow. It was the biggest thing the husband-and-wife shop (the wife was a top-class welder) had ever taken on - they had to extend their shed to fit it in. As a kid it was an amazing place to explore and learn new skills.

As you'd expect the boat had a fair few complex curves, but with the right tools made right there in the shop (like a hydraulic piston-press around 20' high for shaping the plates and a monster forklift made from the chassis and engine of an old Dodge truck) she took us up and down the Queensland coast for many years.

Aside from a few home-made ones, I don't see so many yachts being made down here in steel any more - most new metal builds seem to be Aluminium. Around here I do see more new wooden boats in build than any other material.. but you could argue that I might not be looking in the right places.


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## blt2ski

Cam,

You are looking in the same places Dad is for boats being made, but he is usually in some factory named "Catalina" never heard of it meself, have heard of wood boats.....built a couple of them actually many moons ago........OH, we have a full moon out, watch out for some of our semi normal members, they.......excuse me, need to say this.......arrrrrrrrrrooooooooooooooo!.......ok, that is done for a few minutes........where was I? oh yeah, some of the semi normal folks howl a lot once a month or so, seems to fall on a full moon night........excuse me again.........arrrrrrrrrrrrooooooooooooo!

Marty


----------



## Classic30

You're nuts, Marty. ..but then I think you know that already.


----------



## MikeJohns

Classic30 said:


> FWIW, there are a lot of steel, aluminium and wood and plastic (horror!) down here.
> 
> A fair few decades ago living in North Queensland my parents had a local machine shop build a 50' steel cruising yawl - one my Dad designed and Joe Adams drew up. No chines.. just a nice curved hull and clipper bow. It was the biggest thing the husband-and-wife shop (the wife was a top-class welder) had ever taken on - they had to extend their shed to fit it in. As a kid it was an amazing place to explore and learn new skills.
> 
> As you'd expect the boat had a fair few complex curves, but with the right tools made right there in the shop (like a hydraulic piston-press around 20' high for shaping the plates and a monster forklift made from the chassis and engine of an old Dodge truck) she took us up and down the Queensland coast for many years.
> 
> Aside from a few home-made ones, I don't see so many yachts being made down here in steel any more - most new metal builds seem to be Aluminium. Around here I do see more new wooden boats in build than any other material.. but you could argue that I might not be looking in the right places.


Alloy is a gift currently given it's energy production requirement although still significantly more expensive than steel.

But it's not a great material for the non trained welder. It takes a lot of resources to train an alloy welder and that includes x-rays of beginners welds. It's very easy to lay down a really good looking bead that looks great but is all sitting on the top of the join. Later those welds inevitably crack.

Materials and construction methods come and go with prices trends and ability of local workforces. There's quite a few trained alloy welders around in Oz that people should hire to weld up their home built alloy boats.

I'd have any hull material they all have their advantages and disadvantages for high lattitude cruising and poorly charted coral areas I do like metal boats. But solidly build hulls of most materials in small craft are pretty tough if robustly built.


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> You can get a lot of boat for your money, it's also the toughest of all materials in collision and grounding with alloy a close second which provides a lot of self insurance.
> 
> The downside is steel doesn't tolerate neglect, so not a good material for the myriad of marina boats that act as gin palaces.
> 
> Providing the interior is designed to allow access then maintenance of the hull is easy. And to replace parts of the hull it's the cheapest and quickest of all materials providing the skills are available. In some parts of the USA that can be hard and I've seen an insurance companies fly a dutch crew in to repair a steel yacht in the Carrib.
> 
> I tried to get a steel sailboat sand blasted in LA 2 years ago and was told it wasn't possible and I had to go to Mexico or Washington ! So look at facilities closely, if the boat has to be hauled away to a remote yard for steel work it's going to bankrupt you but if you can work in the yard skilled steel workers are available cheaply anywhere in the world.
> 
> A genset on a steel boat is a real boon for maintenance, and I think it's worth doing a basic welding course and learning a bit about simple easy but effective paint systems.
> 
> If you keep on top of the maintenance keep the interior bilges dry and check the interior paint of the hull every 10 years in high condensation areas it'll last indefinately.
> 
> Steel it should be for serious cruising since they will be medium heavy to heavy boats which need more sail to get them moving.
> 
> Many steel produciton boats are a nightmare of glued interior fitout, teak over ply over steel decks built for a 20 year life, avoid those.
> I posted earlier that here I know of 80 and hundred year old steel boats still being extensively cruised which I have surveyed and much of those hulls are still pristine.


Good post Mike.

Last time I was in Ensenada, the boat yard there was hopping with work they were not allowed to do in the US. I hear the same is true in Tunisia, with work they are not allowed to do in the EU.
Learning to do all your own steel work is not all that hard, and is far more forgiving than with other materials. An alternator, hooked up for welding, will enable you to do steel work anywhere, while at anchor, as well as build any metal gear you may need. I have built everything from wood stoves to anchor winches, while at anchor. Great sport.


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> According to people who know him, Brent lives with his sister in a flat. So not a hermit.


I live full time on my 31 ft twin keeler, in which I cruise mainly between Quadra Island and Sidney BC, with occasional voyages to the South Pacific, and points further north. I try avoid spending more than 2 weeks in one place. Currently I am anchored among several of my 36 footers, all with full time liveaboards, all of whom have previously lived on stock plastic boats, before upgrading to something warmer, tougher, safer and much drier. 
Last time I lived on land full time was 1976.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Dad:
> Here is one of the cons, from my perspective. You have very little control over the small shaping details when you work with steel. There are European yards that can do it but you don't see that level of shape contgrrol in North American steel boats. If you are happy with hard corners and edges then that's fine but I like a softer look. And when I want a hard corner I want it to be my design and not a limitation of the matertial.
> 
> Notice the changing contour in the cabin top of Frankie. That would have been a challenge in steel. It is not conically developed.


In steel boat building, you have all the control you need, over anything which matters . The only control you don't have is over things which really don't matter .
So don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things. Building a good steel boat doesn't take as much time as some waste on things which really don't matter, and don't improve a boat in any functional, or for that matter, in any noticeable, aesthetic way.
Before you waste lot of cruising time trying to make steel do what it really doesn't want to do, ask yourself "How important is it really ? How much cruising time it this worth giving up, for this?"
The simpler ,and thus the fewer nooks and crannies a steel boat has ,the fewer the number of chips and dings in the paint, and the less the maintenance over time ,will be. So for less trouble all around on a steel boat, SIMPLIFY!

Bob, the reverse sheer on the cabin sides of your boat would be easy to do in steel . The centreline, barely noticeable, would be straight , having almost zero effect on aesthetics, as it would be barely noticeable. This is typical of the things which some needlessly waste huge amounts of time and money on,


----------



## Brent Swain

djodenda said:


> I think we also learned that while corrosion can be an issue on steel boats, some methods/processes can significantly reduce the problem, but that some actually make it worse.
> 
> And those methods, along with their pros and cons are......


The biggest and most common mistake on a steel boat is putting wood over steel on the outside. That will be more maintenance than the rest of the boat combined. That makes things much worse, and has no pros, only cons. If you like fine woodwork, keep it inside.
Or you could take picture of some bright work, take it to the paint shop and have the colour matched, then put that colour where you would like to see bright work. From 10 feet away it will look exactly the same, especially if you put a clear finish over it.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Also seems apparent that in settings where steel may be appropriate aluminum may be a better choice. Larger group of modern designs, better sailing performance, easier maintenance with current methods, higher resale value/% of retained value and equal or greater strength with current designs. Only downside is less abrasion resistance.


With much higher initial cost, much higher odds of corrosion below the waterline, no antifouling available which is as effective as copper, which wont threaten to eat it, far more prone to metal fatigue , much trickier to weld , and a far more expensive, and harder to find building site .


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> Brent if you were there, hadn't the hurricane stripped a lot of the sand from the beach and exposed reefs and boulders that ground up most of the boats washed ashore?
> I have a cruising friend (Robert) that knew Moitessier well, Moitessier was very cavalier with Joshua with collisions and groundings thinking it was immune from damage. When Joshua went ashore he was actually in the bar and his boat was just anchored, he wrote some BS about being aboard !
> 
> As for Winston and construction, I didn't make that up the pro marine welder who inspected Winston said on BD net that she was built so. Easy to prove if you know the boat and owner so well they will have all the details.
> 
> ....isn't my drum skin theory it's the accumulated knowledge and science that makes engineering and it's the theory of plates and shells that any engineer anywhere will tell you exactly the same
> 
> My problem adopting your engineering principles, that's a good one from someone who claimed his boats had an AVS of 182 degrees !
> 
> I comprehend it all intuitively, that's the problem, you don't, and I can show you that you don't, and have shown you that you don't.
> And you constantly mix up diminutive steel tanks with proposed scaled up 60 foot frameless behemoths that simply won't work. That's where you should be , addressing the silly claims that the design is intrinsically strong enough to scale to twice the size of the initial design you started with.
> 
> You also still haven't commented on the fact that other designs of yours rotated their keels because you misunderstood the structural adequacy. You lied when you said only the boat that tore holes after a high speed grounding suffered that fate didn't you !
> 
> I've designed more that you, mainly one off custom designs for shipyards, nothing like the variety or number of sailboats of Bob Perry here but I also design other vessels like patrol boats, ships, floating docks if anyone want's something designed. I'm not just a yacht designer I will design yachts when pushed or starving .
> 
> I've never seen a Brent boat ever, because the 200 you claim built around the world amounted to something like under 40 if I remember rightly from Tad Roberts estimates, and the majority are in Canada, none in Tasmania or I would have done an inclining test on it by now !.


Interesting that you have to keep repeatedly quoting a typo, to support your arguments! Shows how feeble your arguments are
Only one of my boats tore her hull at the hull- keel joint, when they ignored the structural I had designed into her, which was in the plans I sold them. The rest, you are making up!
Your argument that Tad Roberts, who hides out on an island, knows more about how many of my boats there are than I, or my clients do , shows how you are grasping at straws to support your arguments. Cruise BC, and you will see plenty of them, sometimes many in a single anchorage. There are 4 in my current anchorage . None have any interest in going to the US , fast becoming a police state. I offered them some San Juan charts . No takers! 
That is why you wont see them down there, except for those built there. None of my crew has any interest in going there to build any. 
Evan, who built Winston's 3 Brentboats, and his daughter's Brentboat has built approximately the same number as I have , 38. They know Suzie , Ken and others who have built many. Many have long ago headed out to sea, and are no longer in this area. I often get pictures of those I have sent plans to, boats sailing or being built . Now how in hell would Tad Roberts know anything about them?
I checked Tad Robert's website. Not a single useful, practical cruising sailboat there.

What dented Bernard's boat was a plastic boat coming down on top of her. The plastic boat disintegrated , Joshua is still sailing.


----------



## MikeJohns

Brent 
I was trying to give you a caution that intuiton doesn't translate into engineering fact. It's not the torn hull that's the issue and I have never said there were more than one that tore it's hull. I'm talking of the other example(s) that buckled their plate. But certainly your earlier design was prone to rotating keels into the hull, and even your very own boat which you yourself posted about on one forum ( learning as you go). Perhaps you'd forgotten, none of us is getting any younger 

It's just that you were denying that there had been any more so it gets hard to make any point without going down Alice's rabbit hole.

It's significant that you intuitively presumed that the curve of the hull would be strong enough and provide enough support for the keel. I think it's a good example of why your intuitive scaling logic is perilous.

Tad Roberts simply looked up some official figures, can't see how that relates to his designs, he's educated and knows how to look stuff up and allow for statistical adjustments. He also gave you a weights and moments study for your 36 as a gift and worked up a stability curve for you for free and offered to validate it with an inclining test. He's been very helpful to you for free. You don't appreciate his work though and never thanked him.



Brent Swain said:


> .What dented Bernard's boat was a plastic boat coming down on top of her. The plastic boat disintegrated , Joshua is still sailing.


That reminds me of the fate of a ferro cement sailboat in Queensland in a cyclone I have pics of somewhere. The steel workboat got washed on top of the yacht and ground her into small bits and a mat of mesh and twisted rod. The steel boat was pulled of afloat with a relatively undamaged hull apart from some prop and rudder damage!


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Before you waste lot of cruising time trying to make steel do what it really doesn't want to do, ask yourself "How important is it really ? How much cruising time it this worth giving up, for this?"


+10000000000000000000000000000

To every newb out there thinking about the pros and cons of building a steel boat, please pay very close attention to the above quote. He is absolutely right.

*Heed his advice!*

Buy a used fiberglass boat and go have some fun actually cruising.


----------



## bobperry

"Your argument that Tad Roberts, who hides out on an island,"

No need to keep getting nasty Brent. Why say that? You need to relax a bit.


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> Brent
> I was trying to give you a caution that intuiton doesn't translate into engineering fact. It's not the torn hull that's the issue and I have never said there were more than one that tore it's hull. I'm talking of the other example(s) that buckled their plate. But certainly your earlier design was prone to rotating keels into the hull, and even your very own boat which you yourself posted about on one forum ( learning as you go). Perhaps you'd forgotten, none of us is getting any younger
> 
> It's just that you were denying that there had been any more so it gets hard to make any point without going down Alice's rabbit hole.
> 
> It's significant that you intuitively presumed that the curve of the hull would be strong enough and provide enough support for the keel. I think it's a good example of why your intuitive scaling logic is perilous.
> 
> Tad Roberts simply looked up some official figures, can't see how that relates to his designs, he's educated and knows how to look stuff up and allow for statistical adjustments. He also gave you a weights and moments study for your 36 as a gift and worked up a stability curve for you for free and offered to validate it with an inclining test. He's been very helpful to you for free. You don't appreciate his work though and never thanked him.
> 
> That reminds me of the fate of a ferro cement sailboat in Queensland in a cyclone I have pics of somewhere. The steel workboat got washed on top of the yacht and ground her into small bits and a mat of mesh and twisted rod. The steel boat was pulled of afloat with a relatively undamaged hull apart from some prop and rudder damage!


The mistaken presumption on my boat was that 4 -1/2 inch by 4 inch flatbars on edge, across each keel, from chine to centreline, far more strength than I have ever seen on any twin keeler her size, and certainly far stronger than anything on the Laurent Giles designed Westerly, was adequate by virtue of being far stronger than anything other designers were specifying. If I was wrong, then so were they ,to a far greater degree. The only damage I got was a slightly dented hull, when the 1/2 inch by 4 inch flat bar on edge bent across its width. Unlike them, I have strengthened greatly the keel support on my designs specifications, which were not always followed. I am in no way responsible for failure of anyone to follow what I have specified.
Check out Steve's comments on Cruisers forums, when he said Silas Crosby has hit many rocks and logs at speed, with zero damage. Try that on any other designers' twin keelers, especially the plastic ones by Laurent Giles. You would tear the bottom out of any of them. 
Friends, who arrived in Cabo just after the disaster there, told me that the Joshua had dents the size of a dingy , far bigger than the space between frames .
Tad Roberts joined the jeering, adolescent heckler gang on all aspects of my boats, then made up a number, based on imagination, as to how many of my boats have been built, calling me a liar in the process. I may owe him something ,but it is anything but a thank you.
Winston told me that if is boat had transverse frames for the NW passage trip ,it would have been severely dented by ice. He said it was thanks to the lack of transverse frames that it had zero dents.
Yet you CLAIM to know someone, who CLAIMS to be a welding inspector, who CLAIMS to know more about what is in Winston's boat than Winston does , the guy who built her and sailed her thru the NW passage ? Then you CLAIM to believe him? Admitting the last point doesn't make you look like a useful source of advice on anything.
Ferro cement is fragile .I found that out when I lost my first boat, a ferro boat on a reef in Fiji, in conditions which wouldn't have damaged any of my steel boats in any way.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> +10000000000000000000000000000
> 
> To every newb out there thinking about the pros and cons of building a steel boat, please pay very close attention to the above quote. He is absolutely right.
> 
> *Heed his advice!*
> 
> Buy a used fiberglass boat and go have some fun actually cruising.


Before Steve built Silas Crosby, he arrived in Fiji on his Spencer 35, expecting to meet a family there, whom he had met earlier. They never arrived , having disappeared without a trace. They were never found . That is what convinced him he needed a steel boat. Since then, he has commented on the huge increase in peace of mind, when sailing at hull speed on a dark night, knowing he has steel, instead of plastic, between him, his family, and any floating debris out there. With some of the stuff I and my friends have hit on dark nights , many of them, and myself ,would not be here, had we been in anything other than a steel hull . We will never know how many other former cruisers, and their crews and families, are no longer here, for exactly that reason.
Smack says that would be a good thing! We disagree! Maybe it would be a good thing for Smack!


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Yet you CLAIM to know someone, who CLAIMS to be a welding inspector, who CLAIMS to know more....


Isn't that _your_ exact M.O.? You CLAIM to have a lot of "friends" telling you things that no one but you believes to be true.

You should be perfectly satisfied with this technique. It's classic BS.


----------



## Brent Swain

One part of the indoctrination process in apprenticing for a designer, is to learn to treat your clients bank account as your own personal advertising budget, at your client's expense. That is why some designers advocate aluminium over steel, with total disregard for his clients costs. What is important for the designer is the boat looking pretty and sailing slightly faster, AFTER the client has spent years paying for her. There is no doubt that an aluminium boat will be slightly faster in light airs, and will never show red rust, and aluminium corrosion is less visible. Is this important enough to justify the huge increase in costs to the client, and to justify him taking that much longer to get away ? It isn't to the designer, who has the client thus pay his advertising costs for him. It may well be to the client, who may be looking at years longer on the treadmill, mainly for the benefit of the designer.


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> Brian,
> 
> Where steel comes into its own is that it is very strong and stiff for any given cross sectional area. There are few if any boat building materials that come anywhere close. But steel is also very dense. Because of that an equal weight of any other boat building material has a much thicker cross section. Since the properties of materials (sheer not withstanding) are calculated as the square, cube or fourth power of the thickness (depending on the purpose of the calculation), it turns out that if you believe in the science, when viewed solely on a pound for pound basis, steel is one of the weakest boat building materials.
> 
> Where steel comes into its own is that it is pretty cheap relative to its strength, and it has a very high abrasion resistance.
> 
> The weight issue often gets dismissed by traditional cruising sailors, but does come into play in very real ways that directly impacts cruisers. When a boat is designed, its hull lines lock in a specific displacement and rate of displacement gain with additional immersion. In other words any given hull shape can only tolerate carrying a given amount of combined weight of hull, ballast, rig, hardware, engine and consumables, and the question then becomes how do you divvy up this weight between the various parts of the boat and what it carries.
> 
> If you compare two boats of equal strength, but constructed of different materials, and the hull of one weighs 40-50% more than the other due to the material (an increase which may be as much as a 10-20% of the overall displacement of the boat) that additional hull weight has to be accomodated somehow. That 'somehow' could be a mix of decreased ballast weight, lower carrying capacity, smaller tankage, less interior appointments and the like. And these trade off's translate to a smaller range, less stability, more roll, and so on. And none of that is good for a cruiser.
> 
> But, to answer your question, the case of aluminum it does take greater thickness to achieve the same bending, stiffness and puncture strength. But, if you believe the science, even with that greater thickness, an equal strength aluminum hull will be lighter than the comparable steel boat.
> 
> Jeff


1inch fir planking is around 3 lbs per sq ft, 3/16th plate is around 7.5 lbs per sq ft. Fir has a tensile strength of 1500 psi steel around 60,000. or 11250 psi for 3/16th plate. Thus 3/16th plate has 2.5 times the weight of 1 inch planking and 7.5 times the strength.
However wood only has tensile strength along the grain, very little across the grain, and in a cold molded fir hull only a third of the veneers has the grain going in any one direction. Steel has equal strength in all directions. Thus in a cold molded one inch thick hull, the tensile strength of wood is slightly over 1/3rd the tensile strength of wood, about 600 PSI. 3/16th steel is roughly 18.5 times the strength of 1 inch cold molded planking. However, in high stress areas, like chain plates and keel bolts, all loads are across the grain, on all three veneers.
There is nothing weaker than a wooden boat, unavoidably!


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## bobperry

Yeah, but the important thing here BS is that you never apprenticed with a designer of note. You skipped that vital part. That is why you make such silly comments about the elements of naval architecture. You just don't know. So, you make stuff up. In doing so you becaome a silly person saying silly things. You can weld steel plate together so it looks like a boat. But that is it.

For me, part of the fun of my job at Carter's was working alongside Yves-Marie Tanton and Chuck Paine. Nobody had all the answers but each of us had a few of the answers and we spent many hours discuissing the various aspects of yacht design. We talked about little else. That is vary valuable time to a young aspiring designer. I will let my own work be testimony to the value of that time.

Being angry will not get you anywhere. Being narrow minded is not helpful either.
Be accurate. Show the results of your work. Post photos of your successes. Post drawings to display your design skills.

I'm having fun tonight with my new 25" monitor. It took a few hours in hell to get it to talk with my other monitor but I seemed, with the help of my brilliant son Max, to have whooped it into submission. It looks marvelous. Glad I got that handled.


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## Dean101

Brent Swain said:


> One part of the indoctrination process in apprenticing for a designer, is to learn to treat your clients bank account as your own personal advertising budget, at your client's expense. That is why some designers advocate aluminium over steel, with total disregard for his clients costs. What is important for the designer is the boat looking pretty and sailing slightly faster, AFTER the client has spent years paying for her. There is no doubt that an aluminium boat will be slightly faster in light airs, and will never show red rust, and aluminium corrosion is less visible. Is this important enough to justify the huge increase in costs to the client, and to justify him taking that much longer to get away ? It isn't to the designer, who has the client thus pay his advertising costs for him. It may well be to the client, who may be looking at years longer on the treadmill, mainly for the benefit of the designer.


Damn those designers! Almost like non-paying "citizens" treating government pensions as their due.

It seems to me if a clients priority is to get out there fast, then get on YachtWorld, find a well-maintained boat, buy it, and go. I could be totally wrong here but it seems to me that the time it would take to find a boat in good shape, make some minor repairs/modifications, do a shakedown, fix any problems, and go would be quicker than researching a designer, drawing up a design (or even using an existing design), acquiring the materials, building the project, doing seatrials to find all the bugs that are bound to be present in a new build, fixing them, and then going.

I don't know jack compared to most of you but I can tell you this. If I decided to be a "client" and commissioned someone to design a boat for me, you can bet your a$$ I would be checking out not only your qualifications and reputation, but I would be talking to everyone from current and previous clients to your competition before I laid out the first dollar! There is no way I would trust someone that can't or won't suggest alternative construction materials. If you could not present me with a list of references or referrals, no chance of you getting my business. If you are not proud enough of your designs and love your work well enough to be able to show me pics of your work or show actual documentation proving what you say is accurate, you would not get a penny from me.

Having said that, Brent, could you work with a client that wants every assurance that the designer he is entrusting his/her hard-earned dollars to is everything he claims? Would you be able to satisfy all the criteria I mentioned above in a prompt manner? And if you would, why haven't you done that here? Plenty of people have asked you to do just that but you haven't. There are a lot of people that read these posts that haven't actually joined the forums. Think of all the potential clients that could be following this discussion that you could be helping to realize their cruising dreams.


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## Jaramaz

Brent Swain said:


> 1inch fir planking is around 3 lbs per sq ft, 3/16th plate is around 7.5 lbs per sq ft. Fir has a tensile strength of 1500 psi steel around 60,000. or 11250 psi for 3/16th plate. Thus 3/16th plate has 2.5 times the weight of 1 inch planking and 7.5 times the strength.
> However wood only has tensile strength along the grain, very little across the grain, and in a cold molded fir hull only a third of the veneers has the grain going in any one direction. Steel has equal strength in all directions. Thus in a cold molded one inch thick hull, the tensile strength of wood is slightly over 1/3rd the tensile strength of wood, about 600 PSI. 3/16th steel is roughly 18.5 times the strength of 1 inch cold molded planking. However, in high stress areas, like chain plates and keel bolts, all loads are across the grain, on all three veneers.
> *There is nothing weaker than a wooden boat, unavoidably!*


Now mr Swain, you keep repeating "tensile strength" as this is something of a mantra for you. Your reasoning demonstrates clearly that you have hardly had any engineering education, no real knowledge about engineering design.

Let's for simplicity say that wooden boats are constructed in either of two ways:
a) traditional: planking on frames.
Here the frames contribute very much to the overall strength of the hull. Frame thickness is, for a typical 32-36 sailing boat, in the order of 1"-2", planing thickness maybe 1". Frame distance ~1 ft. 
The wood in the frames are othorgonal to the planking. 
The overall hull strength is immense, much more than needed for a typical life time of such a boat.

b) cold baked vaneer. 
Here a very strong shell is created by having the veneer cross diagonal. The veneer acts as the reinforcement, the epoxy binds it together. As wellknown from wood industry, two pieces of wood glued together is stronger than one of the same size - quoting tensile strength of fir has no relevance at all in this context (fir is not much used in boat construction, by the way ...).
As with all strong materials, this has to be supported by frames, interior etc. It is possible to achieve some strenth in the "shell" (ie the hull) by introducing some curvature, but this is only sufficient for smaller hulls.

Wooden boats have proven to work very well for houndreds of years. The are many sailing boats still sailing being more than 100 years old. In the harbour where I have my boat there are now about five sailing boats older than 100 years. Still sailing. 
And BTW, in our harbour there are no (none, zil, nada, ingen) sail boat made of steel. That favourite argument of yours, mr Swain, about hitting rock ... well, as our sailing areas look we regularly hit rock. Often, for many of us usually more than once a year. Still no steel boats ....

/J


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## outbound

I think that's Brent's primary difficulty. We see steel boats comprising very small percentage of total sailboat construction . Perhaps less than1% and virtually non existent in new construction. This is even true for voyaging or high latitude boats. Given the market has spoken there are few designers developing new designs and very few yards constructing sailboats in steel. With the decline of the fishing industry few yards are able to maintain these vessels. A prospective owner is now totally dependent on building a old design and maintaining it himself. This enterprise is so daunting few will commit. In the absence of a critical mass of owners to change this steel will remain a side note of a niche industry consisting of" true believers". Although this is unfortunate as steel has much to offer it is very unlikely to change. It seems Brent views this as a conspiracy or due to ignorance. This is to be expected in a " true believer". His arguments to get folks to become " true believers" are uncut by his lack of formal education in his chosen field, his blindness to what is going on around him, basic understanding of market forces or the obligations and contingencies his prospective market faces.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Yeah, but the important thing here BS is that you never apprenticed with a designer of note. You skipped that vital part. That is why you make such silly comments about the elements of naval architecture. You just don't know. So, you make stuff up. In doing so you becaome a silly person saying silly things. You can weld steel plate together so it looks like a boat. But that is it.
> 
> For me, part of the fun of my job at Carter's was working alongside Yves-Marie Tanton and Chuck Paine. Nobody had all the answers but each of us had a few of the answers and we spent many hours discuissing the various aspects of yacht design. We talked about little else. That is vary valuable time to a young aspiring designer. I will let my own work be testimony to the value of that time.
> 
> Being angry will not get you anywhere. Being narrow minded is not helpful either.
> Be accurate. Show the results of your work. Post photos of your successes. Post drawings to display your design skills.
> 
> I'm having fun tonight with my new 25" monitor. It took a few hours in hell to get it to talk with my other monitor but I seemed, with the help of my brilliant son Max, to have whooped it into submission. It looks marvelous. Glad I got that handled.


Yes Bob, while you were talking about boat design inside the warm comfort of an office ,I was out actually cruising full time ,experiencing in the real wold how things work or don't work, something you have never done. My comments are based on decades of first hand ,hands on experience , both cruising and building, not purely on something I read somewhere.
.Your implication that theory is more reliable than experienced reality ,is like saying that future weather forecasts are more accurate and reliable than yesterdays weather record! That's laughable!


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> I think that's Brent's primary difficulty. We see steel boats comprising very small percentage of total sailboat construction . Perhaps less than1% and virtually non existent in new construction. This is even true for voyaging or high latitude boats. Given the market has spoken there are few designers developing new designs and very few yards constructing sailboats in steel. With the decline of the fishing industry few yards are able to maintain these vessels. A prospective owner is now totally dependent on building a old design and maintaining it himself. This enterprise is so daunting few will commit. In the absence of a critical mass of owners to change this steel will remain a side note of a niche industry consisting of" true believers". Although this is unfortunate as steel has much to offer it is very unlikely to change. It seems Brent views this as a conspiracy or due to ignorance. This is to be expected in a " true believer". His arguments to get folks to become " true believers" are uncut by his lack of formal education in his chosen field, his blindness to what is going on around him, basic understanding of market forces or the obligations and contingencies his prospective market faces.


That is because you are thinking in terms of plastic boats , where the hull and decks are small portion of the finished boat, and because you are thinking in terms of all new gear at retail prices. In most of my boats that is anything but the truth. My clients are simply not that dense.


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## bobperry

"My comments are based on decades of first hand ,hands on experience , both cruising and building, not purely on something I read somewhere."

Fine BS. My comments are made after looking at the boats you produce.
I think your work speaks for itself loud and clear. I think you know it is is inferior and that is why you never post your design drawings and very rarely ever have a photo of one of your boats to post. If your work is so great show us. Show us your design work.

I'm very proud of what I have designed and accomplished. I can post pics of my beautiful and succesful boats all day long. They built 120 of these. Ten of the 7.5m models were just sold to a group in Canada.


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## bobperry

And if that doesn't do anything for you,,,how about:


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## bobperry

I can do this all day:


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## bobperry

Here's today's work. I think Outbound will like this one. It's still a work in progress but it is shaping up. Check out the curved house sides.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Yes Bob, while you were talking about boat design inside the warm comfort of an office ,I was out actually cruising full time ,experiencing in the real wold how things work or don't work, something you have never done. My comments are based on decades of first hand ,hands on experience , both cruising and building, not purely on something I read somewhere.
> .Your implication that theory is more reliable than experienced reality ,is like saying that future weather forecasts are more accurate and reliable than yesterdays weather record! That's laughable!


Bob, I must admit, I'm more than a little surprised that you've never experienced "in the real wo[r]ld [sic] how things work or don't work". I'm sure that if the world knew this little secret, all of your wildly popular and award-winning boats across the entire spectrum of yacht types from cruising to racing to mono to multi to FG to steel...and on and on...would suddenly come under a cloud of great suspicion.

One good thing has finally come out of the above post. BS has finally admitted he's not a designer. Just a cruiser and builder.

I'd call that progress.


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## bobperry

I admit that if I had spent years cruising there would be many things I would know more about. Kind of like how if BS had spent time working in a recognized design office he would have learned more about design. I also think that I might have benefitted by working a few years in a yacht building facility. Of course I should have worked for a custom boat builder and a production factory so I got the full spectrum of build experiences. But I didn't. Not dure how that would have impacted my work. Siometimes I think I am a better designer because I don't think how hard a detail is to build. I just draw it and let the builder worry. These are things I have thought about a lot over the years.

But unfortunately or fortunately I made my choices and in hindsite they seem to have worked out just fine. I have had students from all over the world in my office serving interships so they could graduate from their schools. Someone out there must think I know what I am doing. My clients do. I do. I'm never ashamed to admit what I don't know. I don't have to pretend to be anything that I am not. I know a lot and what I don't know I almost always know where to find the answer. I'm never shy about picking up the phone.

I have really enjoyed my job.


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## djodenda

bobperry said:


> Here's today's work. I think Outbound will like this one. It's still a work in progress but it is shaping up. Check out the curved house sides.












My boat (CS 36 Merlin) is more angular than curved on the topsides. I find it aesthetically a bit harsh..

One thing I do like about it is that since the transitions between surfaces aren't large, it seems that I have more horizontal or near-horizontal surfaces to stand on..

My feet seem to understand: "Now I am on the flat, angled part transitioning to the foredeck... Adjust accordingly"

Does this make sense?

It just seems to me that I have better balance on my boat with the angular topsides..

On a similar note, my friend's 1D35 has a large, curved transition between the deck and hull.. There are no rails.

This is great for hiking.

This also a great way to lose things over the side..


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## bobperry

Denda:
That is exactly what we have been playing with all day. We need to strike a balance between what works and what looks best. We have been fiddling with ways to end the lower cabin trunk forward. We either have a distinct step and that gives us a squared off look to the front of the house. Or we go with a slope, a "ramp". The trouble comes when the end of the house is neither a step nor a ramp but something inbetween. We are still mucking around with it. My old Esprit had a ramp with a 14 degree slope to it. It worked perfectly. Just have to convince the client.


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## Classic30

Bob, as I see it, being a vertical surface, a step always looks, aesthetically, like it should have something in it (generally portlights of some description) whereas a ramp, even a fairly steeply-sloped ramp, doesn't have this problem.

..so the question is, do you plan to have any windows in it - or is it solid as drawn?


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## bobperry

Classic:
The treatment of the forward end of the trunk is still up in the air. My plan was a sloped ramp with a hatch cut into the camber. Windows are always hard. You have an indea how you want them, shped then you have to fit that idea with the accomodations and bulkheads. We'll do the windows when we have all the contours established.

I should say that I am envious of BS's skill with tools. I can't build anything. It's not even a matter of no training in that area. To begin with I really do not like to get my hands dirty. No, really I don't. And watching my beloved son Spike work in metal I saw a patience with materials that I don't have. I get fusterated too easily when things don't work right. Spike had a calm patience that allowed him to quietly produce the design he had made and not get mad when things didn't work out exactly as he had them planned.

"Look Dad. I made some Viking armour."

I taught Spike to draw out his designs. His drawings are pure art. His level of creativty still awes me. Tomorrow will be his birthday. If you think of it raise a glass to Spike tomorrow. He wasn't a drinker but when he drank he preferred rum.


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## outbound

It's beautiful .
To paraphrase Mikey " I like it "


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## bobperry

Thanks Out. We had to drag Phil kicking and screaming into 2014. " I don't want 3D modelling!" But in no time that turned into, "Oh,,,that's nice. Now what if we ,,,,,,,?"

I can't imagine doing any refined design work today without the benefits of 3D modelling.
It's a very powerful design tool and I happen to have working with me the very best guy, Jody Culbertson III.

I see we chased BS off. I figured he'd either put up or shut up. He shut up.


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## blt2ski

Bob, 

Is there not a thread in CA on this new boat? I thunk there was, but could not find it over the weekend.

David, I like our Castro designs! Yeah maybe a bit angular at times.....but I still like them.

Marty


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## bobperry

Marty:
Those Castro boats are good looking by any standard. And they sail well. What's not to like?


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## blt2ski

I have a pic somewhere of davids and my boat at his former slip.....can not find it at this time. They look similar, I would imagine sail similar dispite mine being 7-8' shorter. Then again, mine is french, his canadian........hmmmmmmm.......well anyway, mine is also more on the race cruise side, his cruiser. but both can sail.

This is a pic of my boyz, they seem similar to spike in how they react to some things vs me.........having a drink in memory of their grandma pat at the STYC pink poat regatta.









I'll have them ahve a drink for spike! as will I.

Marty


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## outbound

One of my favorite places in the world is sitting on deck with my back against the forward trunk. Leave the slope in.
We all have a Spike. A wonderful soul never gone. Just got call from the daughter of one of my best friends. They stopped the chemo and sent him home. We' ll never go sailing again. I'm crying. Bye.


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## SloopJonB

djodenda said:


> My boat (CS 36 Merlin) is more angular than curved on the topsides. I find it aesthetically a bit harsh..
> 
> One thing I do like about it is that since the transitions between surfaces aren't large, it seems that I have more horizontal or near-horizontal surfaces to stand on..
> 
> My feet seem to understand: "Now I am on the flat, angled part transitioning to the foredeck... Adjust accordingly"
> 
> *Does this make sense?*
> 
> It just seems to me that I have better balance on my boat with the angular topsides..
> 
> On a similar note, my friend's 1D35 has a large, curved transition between the deck and hull.. There are no rails.
> 
> This is great for hiking.
> 
> This also a great way to lose things over the side..


Re: the highlight - it absolutely makes sense. Our feet are designed to work on "flat" (relatively) surfaces, particularly in shoes. Curved surfaces are much harder to maintain footing on.

Walk across a grassy field and then climb on some big boulders if you doubt it.


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## SloopJonB

outbound said:


> One of my favorite places in the world is sitting on deck with my back against the forward trunk. Leave the slope in.
> We all have a Spike. A wonderful soul never gone. Just got call from the daughter of one of my best friends. They stopped the chemo and sent him home. We' ll never go sailing again. I'm crying. Bye.


I once read something to the effect that we are never truly gone until the last person with a memory of us dies.

I kind of like that - it's a pretty long time even for very ordinary people.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Denda:
> That is exactly what we have been playing with all day. We need to strike a balance between what works and what looks best. We have been fiddling with ways to end the lower cabin trunk forward. We either have a distinct step and that gives us a squared off look to the front of the house. Or we go with a slope, a "ramp". The trouble comes when the end of the house is neither a step nor a ramp but something inbetween. We are still mucking around with it. My old Esprit had a ramp with a 14 degree slope to it. It worked perfectly. Just have to convince the client.


A wet ramp can be a launching ramp if you slip on it with wet feet. With bit of slope, you are either on it or not.

That is another reason I like my handrails along the cabin side corner rather than inboard. It acts like a toe rail on slippery feet, as well as protecting the corner of a steel cabin side from paint chipping.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Yeah, but the important thing here BS is that you never apprenticed with a designer of note. You skipped that vital part. That is why you make such silly comments about the elements of naval architecture. You just don't know. So, you make stuff up. In doing so you becaome a silly person saying silly things. You can weld steel plate together so it looks like a boat. But that is it.
> 
> For me, part of the fun of my job at Carter's was working alongside Yves-Marie Tanton and Chuck Paine. Nobody had all the answers but each of us had a few of the answers and we spent many hours discuissing the various aspects of yacht design. We talked about little else. That is vary valuable time to a young aspiring designer. I will let my own work be testimony to the value of that time.
> 
> Being angry will not get you anywhere. Being narrow minded is not helpful either.
> Be accurate. Show the results of your work. Post photos of your successes. Post drawings to display your design skills.
> 
> I'm having fun tonight with my new 25" monitor. It took a few hours in hell to get it to talk with my other monitor but I seemed, with the help of my brilliant son Max, to have whooped it into submission. It looks marvelous. Glad I got that handled.


When I and my builders and clients get together ,we have some long talks about design and building practicalities, as well as feedback form decades of cruising in my boats .
When reading Bobs posts ,one should keep in mind that his definition of "Angry" is "Any time anyone disagrees with him."


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## Brent Swain

Dean101 said:


> Damn those designers! Almost like non-paying "citizens" treating government pensions as their due.
> 
> It seems to me if a clients priority is to get out there fast, then get on YachtWorld, find a well-maintained boat, buy it, and go. I could be totally wrong here but it seems to me that the time it would take to find a boat in good shape, make some minor repairs/modifications, do a shakedown, fix any problems, and go would be quicker than researching a designer, drawing up a design (or even using an existing design), acquiring the materials, building the project, doing seatrials to find all the bugs that are bound to be present in a new build, fixing them, and then going.
> 
> I don't know jack compared to most of you but I can tell you this. If I decided to be a "client" and commissioned someone to design a boat for me, you can bet your a$$ I would be checking out not only your qualifications and reputation, but I would be talking to everyone from current and previous clients to your competition before I laid out the first dollar! There is no way I would trust someone that can't or won't suggest alternative construction materials. If you could not present me with a list of references or referrals, no chance of you getting my business. If you are not proud enough of your designs and love your work well enough to be able to show me pics of your work or show actual documentation proving what you say is accurate, you would not get a penny from me.
> 
> Having said that, Brent, could you work with a client that wants every assurance that the designer he is entrusting his/her hard-earned dollars to is everything he claims? Would you be able to satisfy all the criteria I mentioned above in a prompt manner? And if you would, why haven't you done that here? Plenty of people have asked you to do just that but you haven't. There are a lot of people that read these posts that haven't actually joined the forums. Think of all the potential clients that could be following this discussion that you could be helping to realize their cruising dreams.


I don't do custom designing . The plans I sell are those I have already designed ,which have decades of feed back from hundreds of thousands of miles experience. If you talk to anyone with a lot of experience in my boats such as Winston , Steve, Jack Carson , Don Shore, etc. you will find the only critics of my boats are those who know nothing about them, and who have zero experience in what they are talking about .
My posts are not about attracting potential clients, they are about informing would be boat builders what their options are, and that a steel boat doesn't have to be extremely time and money consuming, nor does it need a lot of expensive equipment nor expertise to build . 
I offer a service to enable home builders to get into an inexpensive, good looking, very well proven steel boat, without taking ten years, or a kings ransom to get out cruising in. 
If that is not what you are looking for, then I am not the guy you are looking for. I have enough money and don't need the hassle of seeking more . I intend to continue make available plans designed with advantages of steel , for those who seek them . If you would rather build with outdated methods, and useless wastes of time designed into them, then go ahead. No skin off my ass.
The Energy Minister once said "Brent , why don't you set up shop and begin serious production of these boats ?"I told him "Why don't you? I am making all the money I need with my low cost lifestyle, which I love, and wouldn't trade for all the money in the world. So why would I screw it up, persuing something I neither want nor need?"
Selling books and plans will become a bit of a burden, once pension kicks in, but I will continue, to enable home builders to get the info they need, which would otherwise be unavailable to them.
I'd love to hand the works over to the womens' shelters as a source of funding for them, but they say they couldn't handle it.

Apprentice with who? The world class experts who designed the boat which broke in half in moderate conditions? None of mine has ever had any structural problems of any kind at sea, in any conditions. The world reknown designer who designed my first boat, which was an abortion? People who have never got their hands dirty building or cruising in steel, and thus know nothing about the material? People who have never cruised long term in any steel boat, nor maintained one long term, and thus know nothing about the subject they are giving advice and apprenticeships in? People who know a lot less about these subjects than I do?
I would never stoop so low, as to give them any control over what I do!
I think steel boat cruisers would be far better off had they served an apprenticeship under me.
If I had done an apprenticeship under such people , I would had all the logic indoctrinated out of me, just like so many who did.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> "Brent , why don't you set up shop and begin serious production of these boats ?"I told him "Why don't you? I am making all the money I need with my low cost lifestyle, which I love, and wouldn't trade for all the money in the world. So why would I screw it up, persuing something I neither want nor need?"
> Selling books and plans will become a bit of a burden, once pension kicks in, but I will continue, to enable home builders to get the info they need, which would otherwise be unavailable to them.
> I'd love to hand the works over to the womens' shelters as a source of funding for them, but they say they couldn't handle it.


I'm going to puke. Why let a pension you didn't earn ruin that low cost lifestyle you love? Ah, yes, you're greedy - just like all those "treadmillers" you think you're better than.

"Women's shelters" funded by BS.










Good lord you have no bounds.


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## Dean101

Brent Swain said:


> I don't do custom designing . The plans I sell are those I have already designed ,which have decades of feed back from hundreds of thousands of miles experience. If you talk to anyone with a lot of experience in my boats such as Winston , Steve, Jack Carson , Don Shore, etc. you will find the only critics of my boats are those who know nothing about them, and who have zero experience in what they are talking about .
> My posts are not about attracting potential clients, they are about informing would be boat builders what their options are, and that a steel boat doesn't have to be extremely time and money consuming, nor does it need a lot of expensive equipment nor expertise to build .
> I offer a service to enable home builders to get into an inexpensive, good looking, very well proven steel boat, without taking ten years, or a kings ransom to get out cruising in.
> If that is not what you are looking for, then I am not the guy you are looking for. I have enough money and don't need the hassle of seeking more . I intend to continue make available plans designed with advantages of steel , for those who seek them . If you would rather build with outdated methods, and useless wastes of time designed into them, then go ahead. No skin off my ass.
> The Energy Minister once said "Brent , why don't you set up shop and begin serious production of these boats ?"I told him "Why don't you? I am making all the money I need with my low cost lifestyle, which I love, and wouldn't trade for all the money in the world. So why would I screw it up, persuing something I neither want nor need?"
> Selling books and plans will become a bit of a burden, once pension kicks in, but I will continue, to enable home builders to get the info they need, which would otherwise be unavailable to them.
> I'd love to hand the works over to the womens' shelters as a source of funding for them, but they say they couldn't handle it.
> 
> Apprentice with who? The world class experts who designed the boat which broke in half in moderate conditions? The world reknown designer who designed my first boat, which was an abortion?
> If I had done that I would had all the logic indoctrinated out of me, just like so many who did.


The people I see criticizing you are including statements that can be verified. They are citing scientific theory that is widely known and accepted. They are not spouting contradictory statements and backing it up by repeating your endless experience with cruising, designing, and building steel boats. They are posting pictures of their work while you keep talking. The only option I've seen you share is origami steel done your way. Everything else is either infinitely inferior, too expensive, or seriously outdated.

Certainly your method is an option and yes, steel is a seriously tough material. I haven't seen anyone dispute that. What I have seen is people with engineering and/or design experience question your claims or ask you to back up those claims with tangible proof and all you do is tell them they don't know anything because they have zero experience with steel. I'm very interested in options and definitely interested in saving money, but quite frankly, I want a boat that looks good. What I don't want are mismatched portlights because the local salvage shop had 3 of these and 5 of those. I want a winch that works dependably and wont abrade a line rather than some old transmission gears cobbled up in a reinforced tin can.

There is nothing wrong with repurposing things but you are going to have to prove to me with more than just words that your average client can turn out a decent looking boat that's capable of withstanding the abuse you seem to feel a boat needs to be able to take at the price points you're talking about in the time frames you quote.

But honestly, after seeing how you react towards anybody that questions you on any point, I wouldn't trust my life to your designs without first getting a second and possibly third opinion elsewhere. And no, I'm not falling for your benevolent benefactor act either. It's all about Brent Swain.

Oh, and just to let you know, your decades old designs would probably be considered outdated.


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## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> ..............My posts are not about attracting potential clients, they are about informing would be boat builders what their options are, and that a steel boat doesn't have to be extremely time and money consuming, nor does it need a lot of expensive equipment nor expertise to build .
> I offer a service to enable home builders to get into an inexpensive, good looking, very well proven steel boat, without taking ten years, or a kings ransom to get out cruising in. ..................


mmmm.......I think you spend a lot of time misinforming potential clients, also a lot of time talking down any professional design approach and even more time talking up Brent Swain's approach. Trouble is that there's a lot of hype and misrepresentation. A lot of this is dangerously misleading IMO because you are nearly exclusively indoctrinating neophytes who are not very aware of the nuances of boating.

Take your stability claims for instance, your 36 foot design is not a great offshore design given it's low stability figure ( small boats should have higher ultimate stability for offshore safety), unfortunately you have misrepresented the stability figures for decades. The opportunity you were given to actually verify the mid 130 degree AVS estimate still stands. And that's a definitive test. Why aren't you organizing that inclining test ? You can even be talked through it yourself. But you will continue to misrepresent that figure and you come up with a silly statements like the NA who offered to do it hides on an island and you don't like his designs.

Enrol for a course of boat design and learn the basics. maybe macnaughtongroup.com home page yacht design marine publishing liveaboard catalog harbor gallery yacht design school yacht brokerage you've already met Tom McNaughton , a very nice chap who can explain a lot to you. That's what an apprenticeship would have done, not indoctrinate you but teach you the basics of naval architecture regarding boat design.

Most of the people you sell your design to should never build a boat first up. They should be given the advice to go buy a used boat, any boat, and cruise and find their niche. They will be much better off financially and they'll get to know boats and boating. I'd never talk a newbie into building a boat ever, that is poor advice and smacks of self interest from your part.


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## bobperry

I have a fabulous book. It was very expensive but worth every cent. It is THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF YACHT DESIGNERS by Lucia del Sol Knight and Daniel Bruce MacNaughton, published by W.W.Norton of New York. It's a big, large format, blue book with 531 pages. It contains biographies on just about every yacht designer in the world for the last 100 years, at least. I have studied yacht design since I was 14 years old. I have read just about everything. I likew to think I know all the designers. But I don't. Ever heard of Captain Bob Fish? Gerhard Gilgenast? Ferdinand Grunhagen? Harold Cornelius Hanson? John Hyslop? Katsunori Ohash? Shigeru Sawaji? Tord Sunden? I'm telling you this book is stuffed with the most obscure names in the world of yacht design. Teams of authors, including my old pal Scott Rohrer were sent out to scour the world in order to make this book complete. I managed a a mention and I'm proud of being included.

But Brent is not even a footnote. It is truly a no BS book.

I don't imagine this book is available except used today. I think you could epect to pay well over $500 for it if you could find a copy. It is chock full of fabulous old drawings and photographs. It's a treasure. If you ever stop by my beach shack be sure to ask to see it.

How about:
St. Clare J. Byrne?
Lindsay Cunnungham?
Reinhard Drewitz?
Jacob Gipon?
Heinrich Heidtmann?
Baron G. W.W. C. Van Hoevell?

This is fun.


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## smackdaddy

MikeJohns said:


> Most of the people you sell your design to should never build a boat first up. They should be given the advice to go buy a used boat, any boat, and cruise and find their niche. They will be much better off financially and they'll get to know boats and boating. I'd never talk a newbie into building a boat ever, that is poor advice and smacks of self interest from your part.


Bingo! Mike nails it.


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## jak3b

bobperry said:


> I have a fabulous book. It was very expensive but worth every cent. It is THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF YACHT DESIGNERS by Lucia del Sol Knight and Daniel Bruce MacNaughton, published by W.W.Norton of New York. It's a big, large format, blue book with 531 pages. It contains biographies on just about every yacht designer in the world for the last 100 years, at least. I have studied yacht design since I was 14 years old. I have read just about everything. I likew to think I know all the designers. But I don't. Ever heard of Captain Bob Fish? Gerhard Gilgenast? Ferdinand Grunhagen? Harold Cornelius Hanson? John Hyslop? Katsunori Ohash? Shigeru Sawaji? Tord Sunden? I'm telling you this book is stuffed with the most obscure names in the world of yacht design. Teams of authors, including my old pal Scott Rohrer were sent out to scour the world in order to make this book complete. I managed a a mention and I'm proud of being included.
> 
> But Brent is not even a footnote. It is truly a no BS book.
> 
> I don't imagine this book is available except used today. I think you could epect to pay well over $500 for it if you could find a copy. It is chock full of fabulous old drawings and photographs. It's a treasure. If you ever stop by my beach shack be sure to ask to see it.
> 
> How about:
> St. Clare J. Byrne?
> Lindsay Cunnungham?
> Reinhard Drewitz?
> Jacob Gipon?
> Heinrich Heidtmann?
> Baron G. W.W. C. Van Hoevell?
> 
> This is fun.


Its still available,$180 on Amazon,The Encyclopedia of Yacht Designers: Lucia Del Sol Knight, Daniel Bruce MacNaughton: 9780393048766: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@41P5RM6X07L
I met Dan Macnaughton about 40 years ago in Camden Maine.He was living aboard a Giles Vertue with his wife.His Brother Tom, runs Macnaughton assoc. has lived aboard and cruised for decades in Maine.


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## SloopJonB

I actually HAVE heard of Tord Sunden - somewhere in the mists of time. 

How about a bit more on him to see if my memory will clear.

Also, were either Ohashi or Sawaji the designer of the Yamaha 26 Quarter Pounder (or the one-off boat it was developed from)? I seem to recall it had a Japanese designer.


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## mstern

SloopJonB said:


> I actually HAVE heard of Tord Sunden - somewhere in the mists of time.
> 
> How about a bit more on him to see if my memory will clear.
> 
> Also, were either Ohashi or Sawaji the designer of the Yamaha 26 Quarter Pounder (or the one-off boat it was developed from)? I seem to recall it had a Japanese designer.


Yamaha 26 Quarter Pounder? Was that an attempt to bring together the worlds of one design and fast food?


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## Jaramaz

Came on guys, Tord Sundén was the actual designed of the original (Nordic) Folkboat ~1941. When plastic arrived he made the GRP version called IF (International Folkboat) at the end of the 1960-ies.

He also made a series of boats called Sunwind (27? 30? ), not so nice boats in my mind, but quite popular some 20-30 years ago. 

Most likely did design other boats as well, in the period 194x-1970: Wooden and low number of boats builts, as was the custom.

Hmm, most likely I met him when I was a child. Oh, well .... 

Now, Tord Sundén, could design sailboats. No question about that. Some very likable (most like the Folkboat, I do not, but still), some more bread-and-butter. But TS desigend different boats, they were not comming from the same basic design.

Then, he was never in the same leage as many of those that went famous. Nearly impossible comming from a small northern country, in the period 1940-1970. 

/J


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## bobperry

Mstern:
I think the Yamahas were designed by an in house design team.

Years ago two Japanese guys in suits showed up at my office. They were designers from Yamaha. They spoke very little English. I welcomed them and showed them some of my own design work.

After some awkward silence as we looked over my drawings, one of the guys said, "Problem with American boats, not designed for human body." I looked at him. He was about 5'3" tall and I said, "Your's or mine?"


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## outbound

Too funny but true. When the bride and went boat shopping we would lie on the berths, try to wedge in every corner, alternate opening lockers and drawers. We would try to find sight lines from all spots in the cockpits. Some brokers would smile with understanding others ( mostly French boat dealers) would frown and try to move us along. She's 4'10" and I'm 6'. Doesn't make a lot of sense to build or buy a boat that doesn't fit but some do.


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## NCC320

Brent Swain said:


> I don't do custom designing . The plans I sell are those I have already designed ,which have decades of feed back from hundreds of thousands of miles experience.......
> My posts are not about attracting potential clients, they are about informing would be boat builders what their options are, and that a steel boat doesn't have to be extremely time and money consuming, nor does it need a lot of expensive equipment nor expertise to build .......
> I offer a service to enable home builders to get into an inexpensive, good looking, very well proven steel boat, without taking ten years, or a kings ransom to get out cruising in.
> If that is not what you are looking for, then I am not the guy you are looking for. I have enough money and don't need the hassle of seeking more . I intend to continue make available plans designed with advantages of steel , for those who seek them ..... I am making all the money I need with my low cost lifestyle, which I love, and wouldn't trade for all the money in the world. So why would I screw it up, persuing something I neither want nor need?".......Selling books and plans will become a bit of a burden, once pension kicks in, but I will continue, to enable home builders to get the info they need, which would otherwise be unavailable to them.....


Brent,

Most of your designs seem to have been designed a long time ago, but seem to attract some people still. I can understand to a degree that you concentrate only on the Origami approach, and I can understand a low key lifestyle. In looking at various pictures of your boats, there seem to be a number of different designs, but nothing having been designed recently. Why and when did Brent stop designing boats? It seems odd there were a number of designs, then there appears to be nothing lately.


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## bobperry

Out:
Yeah but I'm afraid the Japanese guys didn't have a clue as to what I meant. Their interiors were like rabbit warrens.


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## slap

outbound said:


> Too funny but true. When the bride and went boat shopping we would lie on the berths, try to wedge in every corner, alternate opening lockers and drawers. We would try to find sight lines from all spots in the cockpits. Some brokers would smile with understanding others ( mostly French boat dealers) would frown and try to move us along. She's 4'10" and I'm 6'. Doesn't make a lot of sense to build or buy a boat that doesn't fit but some do.


A couple of years ago at the Annapolis boat show I went on the Xp-38, and immediately plopped myself down at the wheel, moving around to simulate positions as if sailing. The broker onboard said I was the first person that day to do that. I guess almost everyone heads down below first instead.......


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## bobperry

"Look at the lovely showa Bernie"


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## SloopJonB

I've had the deck to myself on every boat I've ever been on at a boat show. I'd always head for the rig and the bow - *everybody* else went directly below every time.

That fact is what makes contemporary boats what they are.


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## Classic30

outbound said:


> Too funny but true. When the bride and went boat shopping we would lie on the berths, try to wedge in every corner, alternate opening lockers and drawers. We would try to find sight lines from all spots in the cockpits. Some brokers would smile with understanding others ( mostly French boat dealers) would frown and try to move us along. She's 4'10" and I'm 6'. Doesn't make a lot of sense to build or buy a boat that doesn't fit but some do.


Sounds like the Admiral and I are similar dimensions you and yours:

Our boat has a doghouse with 6'6" headroom whilst the remainder of the cabin is only 5'6". It does peeve me somewhat that she can move about comfortably below decks anywhere she likes - but then I remember a famous NA from yesteryear quoted as saying something like "if you want to stand up, go on deck!"... and then I put on my bump-cap and think about something else.


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## mstern

bobperry said:


> Mstern:
> I think the Yamahas were designed by an in house design team.
> 
> Years ago two Japanese guys in suits showed up at my office. They were designers from Yamaha. They spoke very little English. I welcomed them and showed them some of my own design work.
> 
> After some awkward silence as we looked over my drawings, one of the guys said, "Problem with American boats, not designed for human body." I looked at him. He was about 5'3" tall and I said, "Your's or mine?"


The boat sure does look like one of the old Quarter Tonners. My (lame) joke had to do with the original comment that it was a "Yamaha 26 Quarter Pounder". Perhaps the author was hungry when making that post?


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## SloopJonB

Quarter Pounder is a long standing term of affection for the old Quarter Tonners.

The other Ton classes get similar treatment (1/2 Pounder etc.) but it works best on the Quarter Tonners.


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## mstern

Thanks Jon. I never heard that Quarter Pounder term before. I'd like to think its because I was too young during the IOR era to pay attention to that stuff! I was exclusively on Sunfish and Sailfish back then and mostly concerned about water temperature and being able to pull the capsized boat back over.


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## Brent Swain

Classic30 said:


> Sounds like the Admiral and I are similar dimensions you and yours:
> 
> Our boat has a doghouse with 6'6" headroom whilst the remainder of the cabin is only 5'6". It does peeve me somewhat that she can move about comfortably below decks anywhere she likes - but then I remember a famous NA from yesteryear quoted as saying something like "if you want to stand up, go on deck!"... and then I put on my bump-cap and think about something else.


I heart similar dense comments from famous NAs from today. Many don't know what year round sailing is, having only fair weather experience, if any.


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## Brent Swain

NCC320 said:


> Brent,
> 
> Most of your designs seem to have been designed a long time ago, but seem to attract some people still. I can understand to a degree that you concentrate only on the Origami approach, and I can understand a low key lifestyle. In looking at various pictures of your boats, there seem to be a number of different designs, but nothing having been designed recently. Why and when did Brent stop designing boats? It seems odd there were a number of designs, then there appears to be nothing lately.


The boats I have designed will fill the needs of most cruisers. People have made some variations, like Steve's centre cockpit , different wheelhouse shapes, twin or single keel, etc. I can't see any point in the micro market. I design only what I believe in, which is why I don't design anything over 40 feet. I also prefer to refine them over decades, with the input of owners who put many ocean crossings under them. Calculations for a new boat are no match for decades of cruising input and feedback, when it comes to seamanship and reliability.
A friend told me of his German friend ,who was circumnavigating in his 28 footer. People would say "Your boat's to small." To which he would reply "No your ego is too big."


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## Brent Swain

Dean101 said:


> The people I see criticizing you are including statements that can be verified. They are citing scientific theory that is widely known and accepted. They are not spouting contradictory statements and backing it up by repeating your endless experience with cruising, designing, and building steel boats. They are posting pictures of their work while you keep talking. The only option I've seen you share is origami steel done your way. Everything else is either infinitely inferior, too expensive, or seriously outdated.
> 
> Certainly your method is an option and yes, steel is a seriously tough material. I haven't seen anyone dispute that. What I have seen is people with engineering and/or design experience question your claims or ask you to back up those claims with tangible proof and all you do is tell them they don't know anything because they have zero experience with steel. I'm very interested in options and definitely interested in saving money, but quite frankly, I want a boat that looks good. What I don't want are mismatched portlights because the local salvage shop had 3 of these and 5 of those. I want a winch that works dependably and wont abrade a line rather than some old transmission gears cobbled up in a reinforced tin can.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with repurposing things but you are going to have to prove to me with more than just words that your average client can turn out a decent looking boat that's capable of withstanding the abuse you seem to feel a boat needs to be able to take at the price points you're talking about in the time frames you quote.
> 
> But honestly, after seeing how you react towards anybody that questions you on any point, I wouldn't trust my life to your designs without first getting a second and possibly third opinion elsewhere. And no, I'm not falling for your benevolent benefactor act either. It's all about Brent Swain.
> 
> Oh, and just to let you know, your decades old designs would probably be considered outdated.


Widely accepted scientific theory, until quite recently, said that bees were incapable of flying. Tell the bees that!
During my lifetime, it said that matter couldn't be destroyed. It said there a was no water on the moon, and that other stars didn't have any planets. Widely accepted "scientific theory" is constantly being disproven and revised. If it never was, we would still be stuck in the stone age.
Every bit of human progress involved going against the widely accepted ways of doing things, and thinking. Without doing so, we would still be stuck in the stone age. 
You remind me of the foreman I once worked for, who told me "Invention is dead. Everything there is to invent, has already been invented."
That was in 1968! Has nothing been invented since then?
Yet some still make that claim today , as they have made it since the stone age
I have never used old gears or tin cans to build an anchor winch, nor advocated such. My current anchor rode is decades old, with no serious chafe problems.
And you call my posts misleading? Looks like the pot calling the kettle black.
Tangible proof is Silas Crosby, just returned from Cape Horn and the Aleutians, almost looking like she has just come out of the boatyard. Tangible proof are his comments on his boat. Tangible proof is Viski, having survived pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf, then being dragged by a tug across the same 300 yards of reef, with almost zero damage . Tangible proof is the 38 boats I have built, the roughly 38 Evan has built, the half dozen Ken Splett has built ,the many who have built their own, or hired others to hep build them, the circumnavigations and long offshore voyages over decades, all with zero structural damage of any kind. Tangible proof is the photos posted on BD.net of the first of my 36 footers pounding in up to12 ft surf for 16 days, with minimal damage. Tangible proof is Winston's single season passage thru the NW passage with zero dents or damage of any kind.
No, writing down a bunch of numbers doesn't prove anything . Ask investors in Briex, Nortel, AIG ,Bernie Made-Off's scam etc. how reliable a proof numbers gives one.
The photos of my boats on the origamiboats site are proof of how good looking most of them are. Don't see any mismatched port lights there, so again your post misleads.
Sounds like you are heading for a project which will take far more time with far lesser results than it need take. Go ahead, no skin off my ass. Just don't encourage others to be so naïve
Don't believe anything this guy posts!


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## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> mmmm.......I think you spend a lot of time misinforming potential clients, also a lot of time talking down any professional design approach and even more time talking up Brent Swain's approach. Trouble is that there's a lot of hype and misrepresentation. A lot of this is dangerously misleading IMO because you are nearly exclusively indoctrinating neophytes who are not very aware of the nuances of boating.
> 
> Take your stability claims for instance, your 36 foot design is not a great offshore design given it's low stability figure ( small boats should have higher ultimate stability for offshore safety), unfortunately you have misrepresented the stability figures for decades. The opportunity you were given to actually verify the mid 130 degree AVS estimate still stands. And that's a definitive test. Why aren't you organizing that inclining test ? You can even be talked through it yourself. But you will continue to misrepresent that figure and you come up with a silly statements like the NA who offered to do it hides on an island and you don't like his designs.
> 
> Enrol for a course of boat design and learn the basics. maybe macnaughtongroup.com home page yacht design marine publishing liveaboard catalog harbor gallery yacht design school yacht brokerage you've already met Tom McNaughton , a very nice chap who can explain a lot to you. That's what an apprenticeship would have done, not indoctrinate you but teach you the basics of naval architecture regarding boat design.
> 
> Most of the people you sell your design to should never build a boat first up. They should be given the advice to go buy a used boat, any boat, and cruise and find their niche. They will be much better off financially and they'll get to know boats and boating. I'd never talk a newbie into building a boat ever, that is poor advice and smacks of self interest from your part.


Tad Roberts calculated the ultimate stability of my 36 at 165 degrees, which he posted on BD.net. Jim, the Russian computer whizz, calculated it on his computer, and came up with 175 degrees, which he posed on the origamiboats site.
An inclining test at the dock has absolutely nothing to do with ultimate stability. The buoyancy of deck structures has a major role in that , and how can that be determined by slightly inclining a boat at the dock, without getting them wet?

Which means no one should believe anything you post, from this point on!

I always advise people to buy a used boat, to gain experience, except those who have already done that, and concluded, rightly, that the only way to get a good one, is to build it themselves. The rest arrive at the same conclusion later, after freezing under the inevitable deck leaks in plastic boats, or having the crap scared out of them in boats which couldn't survive a good bump on a rock or log boom. All have said that upgrading to one of my boats has been a huge improvement. Winston, with his vast experience, is on his 3rd brentboat, and his daughter just went south in one. How does that compare to your personal, hands on experience in cruising and crossing oceans in a brentboat?
McNaughton is incapable of comprehending the effect of shape on stiffness and strength. My discussion of that with him went right over his head.
Winston built his first brentboat after completing a circumnavigation , no neophyte, probably far less of one than you. After owning two brentboats , circumnavigating the Pacific in one, and sailing thru the NW passage in his second, he chose a brentboat for his third. His daughter, who grew up circumnavigating with her father, and after sailing from BC to new Zealand and back, just headed south in a brentboat, again, no neophyte. Steve built Silas Crosby after sailing his Spencer 35 to New Zealand and back, no neophyte . Roger built his first brentboat after sailing his first boat to Tahiti and back to BC, again no neophyte. Ken built his first brentboat after sailing his first boat to Kiribati.

I don't believe modern trendiness has created any better cruising boats, from a practical standpoint .In fact, I believe they are not as good as some older designs. I have watched mains become small and jibs huge ,then go back the other way, and each time it was hailed as the most modern improvement ,anything else was outdated. Bendy masts were consider the only way to win a race, until the Kiwis kicked ass with a super stiff one.
Following trends blindly can be a suckers game!

Don't believe anything Mike posts!


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> I'm going to puke. Why let a pension you didn't earn ruin that low cost lifestyle you love? Ah, yes, you're greedy - just like all those "treadmillers" you think you're better than.
> 
> "Women's shelters" funded by BS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good lord you have no bounds.


And you would turn down a government pension? Ya ,sure you would!

I charge $30 an hour, charge $350 for a set of plans, and your hero charges $150 an hour, and $14,000 for a set of plans, and expects his clients to buy him a swimming pool, and you call me greedy? 
Ya sure , Steve!


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Mstern:
> I think the Yamahas were designed by an in house design team.
> 
> Years ago two Japanese guys in suits showed up at my office. They were designers from Yamaha. They spoke very little English. I welcomed them and showed them some of my own design work.
> 
> After some awkward silence as we looked over my drawings, one of the guys said, "Problem with American boats, not designed for human body." I looked at him. He was about 5'3" tall and I said, "Your's or mine?"


They'd love Colvin's designs. Their interiors are mostly closet like crawl spaces.
I used to fit a size 11 shoe. My feet haven't grown since then. Now I take a size 13 and it barely fits. They just can't believe anyone could have such huge feet ,so they make them smaller.
Reminds me of the handle they put in their cars, which whack you in the side of the head with every bump on a bumpy road. It goes over their heads.
Different ergonomics for different folks!


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## bobperry

"I heart similar dense comments from famous NAs from today. Many don't know what year round sailing is, having only fair weather experience, if any. "

Boy BS you are really angry tonight. You are not typing well either. Maybe put the bottle down. You are seimi coherant. I understand.

You are way too defensive about your problem with math. It's your problem, own it. You have a real problem with basic math and how it applies to yacht design. Pathetic is the word that comes to mind. Quit pretending.

You are babbling tonight. Probably better you just go to bed. You sound drunk. Sorry but you are really not making any coherant sense. You are making more desperate defensive statements.

Nighty night BS. You will have to tuck yourself in, again.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> And you would turn down a government pension? Ya ,sure you would!


Then stop all the self-righteous _"I am making all the money I need with my low cost lifestyle, which I love, and wouldn't trade for all the money in the world"_ crap.

Even according to you, that's obviously a lie. As you just said, you'll trade your lovable poverty in a heartbeat for government money you don't deserve.

It's becoming painfully obvious you just had no other options.

PS - Thanks for breaking the shoe size conspiracy wide open. I knew they were up to something.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> "I heart similar dense comments from famous NAs from today. Many don't know what year round sailing is, having only fair weather experience, if any. "
> 
> Boy BS you are really angry tonight. You are not typing well either. Maybe put the bottle down. You are seimi coherant. I understand.
> 
> You are way too defensive about your problem with math. It's your problem, own it. You have a real problem with basic math and how it applies to yacht design. Pathetic is the word that comes to mind. Quit pretending.
> 
> You are babbling tonight. Probably better you just go to bed. You sound drunk. Sorry but you are really not making any coherant sense. You are making more desperate defensive statements.
> 
> Nighty night BS. You will have to tuck yourself in, again.


Last alcohol I drank was one glass of wine at Xmas . How much have you gone thru since then?
Again , Bob defines "angry" as anyone who disagrees with him. Yes, I fit that definition, and am proud of it. I don't think you would find many people who define "angry" as "Anyone who disagrees with Bob Perry." (Or Steve, for that matter.) 
No, you guys are simply not that important , nor significant .
I see a lot of people who are whizz kids with math, who are totally useless with any other form of logic. That which they cant convert into numbers, they are completely incapable of comprehending.

I'm having a blast, shooting you sitting ducks off your fence!


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## bobperry

"I'm having a blast, shooting you sitting ducks off your fence! "

You are a very bad shot Brent.

But you are fun.


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## Brent Swain

You guys are complete flops when it come to understanding the most basic logic, which makes you fun.
Thanks for the entertainment!


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> You guys are complete flops when it come to understanding the most basic logic, which makes you fun.
> Thanks for the entertainment!


My pleasure. Really.



Brent Swain said:


> I charge $30 an hour, charge $350 for a set of plans, and your hero charges $150 an hour, and $14,000 for a set of plans, and expects his clients to buy him a swimming pool, and you call me greedy?
> Ya sure , Steve!


Yes Brent, you're greedy. You love money. You'll do anything to get as much as you can (pose as an aboriginal, pose as Nordic royalty, pose as a contributing citizen who "deserves" a pension - whatever it takes to score some juice). And I'm not making this stuff up - this is what you've said over and over in this thread.

But - see, being greedy wouldn't be all that bad if that were the end of it. You're not only greedy, you're bitter and envious. How do I know? Look at the above. Just because you make $120/hour less than Bob doesn't make you "better" than Bob. It just means your work has far less value and less demand than his. This is the simple truth.

You've just stated above that if you could earn more you would. But you can't, Brent. Not because you're valiantly "choosing not to". You just can't. Bob, however, can...and does. And he doesn't need to milk the government or anyone else to enjoy his pool. His work that people are willing to pay handsomely for bought the pool. Your work bought you some ice cream. Nothing wrong with that. And no one around here holds that against you. But you hold it against Bob.

You should be happy for Bob - and learn from him, not just attack and insult him. You should congratulate him on his success. It's not greed. It's _success_. You can't understand the difference between the two - mainly because you're clearly greedy, but not successful.


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## Capt Len

Here I am on the beach in Thailand and if it weren't for prose an cons I'd have no entertainment at all. As for my thoughts on Yamahas my only experience has been to pull them in off the salish sea as they tend to fill their engines with salt water in any bit of following sea.


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## Dean101

Brent Swain said:


> Widely accepted scientific theory, until quite recently, said that bees were incapable of flying. Tell the bees that!
> During my lifetime, it said that matter couldn't be destroyed. It said there a was no water on the moon, and that other stars didn't have any planets. Widely accepted "scientific theory" is constantly being disproven and revised. If it never was, we would still be stuck in the stone age.
> Every bit of human progress involved going against the widely accepted ways of doing things, and thinking. Without doing so, we would still be stuck in the stone age.
> You remind me of the foreman I once worked for, who told me "Invention is dead. Everything there is to invent, has already been invented."
> That was in 1968! Has nothing been invented since then?
> Yet some still make that claim today , as they have made it since the stone age
> I have never used old gears or tin cans to build an anchor winch, nor advocated such. My current anchor rode is decades old, with no serious chafe problems.
> And you call my posts misleading? Looks like the pot calling the kettle black.
> Tangible proof is Silas Crosby, just returned from Cape Horn and the Aleutians, almost looking like she has just come out of the boatyard. Tangible proof are his comments on his boat. Tangible proof is Viski, having survived pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf, then being dragged by a tug across the same 300 yards of reef, with almost zero damage . Tangible proof is the 38 boats I have built, the roughly 38 Evan has built, the half dozen Ken Splett has built ,the many who have built their own, or hired others to hep build them, the circumnavigations and long offshore voyages over decades, all with zero structural damage of any kind. Tangible proof is the photos posted on BD.net of the first of my 36 footers pounding in up to12 ft surf for 16 days, with minimal damage. Tangible proof is Winston's single season passage thru the NW passage with zero dents or damage of any kind.
> No, writing down a bunch of numbers doesn't prove anything . Ask investors in Briex, Nortel, AIG ,Bernie Made-Off's scam etc. how reliable a proof numbers gives one.
> The photos of my boats on the origamiboats site are proof of how good looking most of them are. Don't see any mismatched port lights there, so again your post misleads.
> Sounds like you are heading for a project which will take far more time with far lesser results than it need take. Go ahead, no skin off my ass. Just don't encourage others to be so naive


Wow....Just....wow. Didn't you know that there is a difference between theory and fact? And for someone who is now preaching about innovation and disproving theory, how much have you changed about your designs to improve them since you drew them decades ago? I mean, all I would have to go on is your word. Your clients on the other hand may have changed a few things but I seriously doubt you have. To hear you talk, it's a wonder that man ever crossed an ocean before you came along. All those calculations you are so fond of mocking prove to me that the guy that designed the boat understands not only what does work but why it works and has done their best to make sure that it all works together as a complete unit rather than building something that looks like a boat out of the strongest material they can find in the hopes that it will hold together through poor seamanship or just plain bad luck. And don't twist my sarcasm into a misleading comment.

And I'm not so naïve as to trust the word of anybody, much less a designer/builder/cruiser with a lifetime of experience who would trust an anchor rode that is decades old.


----------



## blt2ski

WHen I was in college, there were two kingdoms.......daughter at 16, comes home and says there are 5 kingdoms.....hmmmmmm....plant and animal, good.......now bacteria, have been added, not part of plants as I learned, Moss and fungi were another........vs in plant....... may have to look it up......reality is, things change...........I could say whom it does not change for........but I might be told BS.......so with that, time for bed.

Marty


----------



## bobperry

Damn! Now I have a busy day ahead of me. A client at 9:30am and another one late this afternoon (from Vancouver Brent). I'm not sure how I'm going to fit in feeling guilty about my indoor swimming pool.

If it makes you feel any better BS it's not a big pool. It's 60' long, 8' wide and 6' deep. It's for swimming laps. I like it most because my grandaughter, Violet, loves to go swimming when she comes to visit. I heat it to 85 degs f.


----------



## smackdaddy

Uh-oh...looks like Violet got hung up in some Fukushima Debris. That stuff is EVERYWHERE!


----------



## bobperry

Hey Mr. Watch your language around my grandaughter.

Fukashima you!


----------



## smackdaddy

Same to you pal. Like I give a fukushima. 

(I think we're onto something here.)


----------



## outbound

What the fukushima????


----------



## bobperry

Out:
Here is where we are on the new boat project. It's coming along nicely. I realize there is very little BS in it but I'm not sure that BS fits the look and market we are after.


----------



## outbound

D-mn it only has one wheel and no chines. Paulo not going to like it either but that's alright I (and my pick up truck driving brethren) love it.
Ask Phil about pick up trucks. You'll get a smile. Also you guys need to get a move on. I'm expecting a beefy brace for my hard bimini to come over with the first delivery in August. (GRIN). Once that's done I hope to be "outta here".
?Do you have mock ups of the interior. Phil has truly refined the interior of the 46' to be a very liveable boat. He truly picked out the best features that each owner suggested and incorporated them in the next boat. For instance the mast steps are named after my bride.


----------



## Brent Swain

Dean101 said:


> Wow....Just....wow. Didn't you know that there is a difference between theory and fact? And for someone who is now preaching about innovation and disproving theory, how much have you changed about your designs to improve them since you drew them decades ago? I mean, all I would have to go on is your word. Your clients on the other hand may have changed a few things but I seriously doubt you have. To hear you talk, it's a wonder that man ever crossed an ocean before you came along. All those calculations you are so fond of mocking prove to me that the guy that designed the boat understands not only what does work but why it works and has done their best to make sure that it all works together as a complete unit rather than building something that looks like a boat out of the strongest material they can find in the hopes that it will hold together through poor seamanship or just plain bad luck. And don't twist my sarcasm into a misleading comment.
> 
> And I'm not so naïve as to trust the word of anybody, much less a designer/builder/cruiser with a lifetime of experience who would trust an anchor rode that is decades old.


The first origami boat I built had a chine running full length. On the second one we eliminated the chine in the bow , by welding the bottom plate to the topside plate, before pulling it together. On the second one we eliminated the chine at both ends, by cutting the bottom plate in half and welding each half to the topside plate, before pulling it together. Then we started using 8 by 36 ft plates , eliminating this seam and 32 feet of matching and welding in the process. Then we began welding bulwark pipes and longitudinal stringers on while the plate was flat on the ground, and welding all deck beams and stringers on, on a work bench, before installing them, eliminating a lot of overhead welding. I cringe when I se people advocating still dong this welding overhead, in place, when it is so unnecessary,(unless you like that kind of hot shower) Then more clients started using stainless sch 40 pipe for bulwark caps, eliminating a lot of maintenance. We switched to using zinc rich cold galvanizing primer, to eliminate the need for sandblasting. My boat was done that way, and after 29 years 95% of the paint is as good as the day I put it on. Then we began using the centreline as tankage, most of the tankage already being there, in the form of the hull bottom. This gave us a triangulated, super strong point to attach the keel supports to, where the tank top meets the hull plate, both well curved. Then we went for 3x3x1/2 inch angles from the chine to this solid point for keel supports. 
We put a small window in the top of the tanks, so one could at any time, lift the floor boards, and see right to the bottom of the tanks.
We turned the back of the single keel into a 70 gallon diesel tank, with a similar window in top.
I started putting a small window by the forepeak bunk which allows you to see outside while laying in your bunk, and enabling you to see if you are dragging anchor or not, b y simply opening one eye.
If you have zero chafe on a nylon braid anchor line it is almost as good as the day you bought it. This business of throwing perfectly good gear away simply because of its age ,when there is nothing wrong with it is a suckers game , promoted by the ship swindlers. People who get suckered into that kind of foolishness spend a lot more of their lives working, and a lot less playing .No one ever lay on their death bed saying "I wish I had worked more." Don't believe any post from anyone who promotes such gullibility, or anyone who misleads one into believing I have ever advocated building an anchor winch out of tin cans. Compulsive liars, all too often, have cost people their cruising dreams, and too much of their freedom!

I wish that chat button was not so close to the scroll down one.
Time to go for a swim, sauna and Jacuzzi. Special today . $2.50 
Olympic sized pool. Ozone bleached ,No chlorine smell./


----------



## bobperry

"Olympic sized pool. Ozone bleached ,No chlorine smell./ "

How much of that Olympic size pool do you take up BS? Oh Ok, I imagine you are a thrasher. You may need more space.
I never use Chlorine.
Suits are optional here.


----------



## djodenda

bobperry said:


> Marty:
> Those Castro boats are good looking by any standard. And they sail well. What's not to like?


Hey.. don't get me wrong.. I feel extremely fortunate to have such a great boat. She's not perfect, but she sure is fine...

Back to the subject, sort of...

I think few people will deny (well, I can think of one) that the development of GRP boats has created a revolution in the world of sailing, with ordinary folks became able to afford to own and maintain sailboats, to a level that wasn't generally possible before.

In the mid-sixties, my father, a machinist at General Motors, was able to buy, maintain, and sail a boat (Shark 24) large enough to take my mother and us 4 kids for weekend sails in Michigan.

It was something he could afford to do, and maintain the boat without special skills!

We are all lucky to live in such a time.


----------



## bobperry

Paulo hooked me up with another article in another German magazine. Seems my clients are well known cruisers. I did not know that. I just knew they were cruisers. So here they are, risking life and limb in a Perry design blasting their way accross the ocean totally anawares that they are not having fun and they may die any moment. I'll bet you this family owns this boat for another ten years. It's a beauty. Makes me proud and arrogant. It may get worse tonight.


----------



## outbound

You certainly have a eye. Both that red boat and the new version of the outbound look to have beautiful form with I expect great function. Self love is better than self hate as long as your not self centered. Go have a nice glass of wine with your swimmies on in your heated pool.


----------



## PaulinVictoria

I couldn't be arsed to read the preceding 332 pages of this thread, I would think most of Brent's posts on the forum are probably in here somewhere. Anyway, saw this and thought of you all
Fugglebucket


----------



## bobperry

Thanks Out. I appreciate your kind comment.

When I was 15 years old I would start the day with a huge bowl of cornflakes. I would cover the top with .5" of white sugar. I would get out my files of Bill Garden and Phil Rhodes design and eat my cereal while going through the designs. I would usually eat around three bowls of cereal before I was done. Porbably a half cup of sugar. But what I was consciously trying to do was to imprint my own eye with the sense of proportion that Rhodes and Garden had. I literally thought about it like that. I wanted to learn the skill that probably Garden and Rhodes were born with. The thouht of growing up to draw butt ugly, crude boats never entered my mind.

I was 15 and on walkabout. I had walked from our home on Mercer Island, accross the floating brdge, through Seattle to Fremont where I crossed the Fremont Brdige and continued down the north side of Lake Union. Among the marinas and docks there I saw SEQUIN the steel hulled Garden designed Schooner that had, at one time, belonged to my doctor Earl Lasher. It was a magnificent vesel fallen on hard times. Someone had painted the entire boat and I mean ENTIRE boat sort of bright distress green. I was devastated. Garden had laid out a delicate and sensitive paint job for SEQUIN.

But as I looked at it I thought, under that awful, ignorant paint job are some beautiful lines. I thought, when I design my boats I want them to be able to retain their dignity of design even when have been left to rot.

Kids think weird things.


----------



## bobperry

$39,500? Might sell for $29,000. Not too bad a looking boat.


----------



## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> Tad Roberts calculated the ultimate stability of my 36 at 165 degrees, which he posted on BD.net. Jim, the Russian computer whizz, calculated it on his computer, and came up with 175 degrees, which he posed on the origamiboats site. &#8230;..


You keep saying this, you even said it to Tad himself and his reply is here: Swain BS_36 Stability curve - Page 18 - Boat Design Forums (where you are posting as Jack Hickson).

Tad says 131 degrees based on the lines you provide and his most thorough estimate of weights and moments which he gave you for free to comment on and modify if required.
That was his final figure, anything else was preliminary and was altered as the study progressed and that included a 3d computer model of the hull.

I even posted about this on this thread earlier

I'll repeat this again&#8230;..
For a higher figure you are relying on an intact and buoyant mast, neither of which is figured into inversion calculations for any sailboat for several reasons. So "Jim" apparently factored an intact buoyant mast to get 175 degrees. Presuming he used the same center of gravity as Tad he must have.

But importantly you don't understand why we don't use mast volume in ultimate stability, masts seldom stay intact in an inversion.
But significantly it isn't really a real situation, the smooth water GZ curve is just a good rule of thumb for comparison of craft in waves and their relative safety.
If you count the a buoyant mast in the GZ then we need to do that for every design you compare it with, not include a buoyant mast in your stability curves and exclude it in other boats it's being compared with.



Brent Swain said:


> The buoyancy of deck structures has a major role in that , and how can that be determined by slightly inclining a boat at the dock, without getting them wet? ........... Which means no one should believe anything you post, from this point on!.


Unfortunately this really shows how little you are prepared to learn if the result doesn't suit you. It's really concerning that a boat designer can be so willfully ignorant, this was all explained to you before several times over the last few years. Especially since stability is constantly being misrepresented and misunderstood by you.

So again this is being explained to you here and now:
The inclining test is not a test of the GZ curve to the angle of vanishing stability (AVS, ultimate stability angle, LPS etc). The inclining test establishes the location of the center of gravity (CG). The GZ curve is then generated with a numerical model and the CG using a computer.

So unless you get that inclining test, and it disproves Tad Roberts best estimate of the center of gravity from his weights and moments study, then you should only quote 131 degrees. To tell anyone anything else is misrepresentation. Especially now it's been explained to you clearly several times.
The design should not be promoted as a good offshore design for a 36 foot offshore boat that's a very poor stability figure . In severe weather these designs are likely to be rolled, and are well below the sensible offshore requirements.


----------



## smackdaddy

Why is it that the marketing photos for BS Yachts almost never show them sailing, but sitting on land somewhere? Unfinished in a backyard, unfinished on a farm, unfinished on a piece of land someone "borrowed", unfinished in a shed, or actually finished but grounded somewhere.










What does the word "cruising" mean in Canadianese anyway?


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Paulo hooked me up with another article in another German magazine. Seems my clients are well known cruisers. I did not know that. I just knew they were cruisers. So here they are, risking life and limb in a Perry design blasting their way accross the ocean totally anawares that they are not having fun and they may die any moment. I'll bet you this family owns this boat for another ten years. It's a beauty. Makes me proud and arrogant. It may get worse tonight.


here is what I posted on interesting boat thread some weeks ago:



PCP said:


> A 10 year old Bob Perry aluminium design built in Europe by Jachtbouw Folmer....
> 
> ....has found some great new owners, a German couple ( Nathalie Müller e Michael Wnuknow) with two kids, that have meet at sea and have being travelling together for the last decade, first on a steel boat, the Iron Lady and now on Marlin, a Bob Perry design, that is doing now what was designed to do in first place.
> 
> The boat has won a new live and looks better than new.
> 
> They are a quite famous in Germany with a published book and a blog that has been many times presented on the "Yacht" German magazine one of the the biggest in Europe.
> 
> Blog*|*YACHT.DE
> 
> SY Marlin
> 
> Some photos of the boat and the family:


and a movie:






Sie nannten sie Marlin from Tigersnail Film on Vimeo.

Now you are going to be even worse. I am going to bed.

Regards

paulo


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> The first origami boat I built had a chine running full length. On the second one we eliminated the chine in the bow , by welding the bottom plate to the topside plate, before pulling it together. On the second one we eliminated the chine at both ends, by cutting the bottom plate in half and welding each half to the topside plate, before pulling it together. Then we started using 8 by 36 ft plates , eliminating this seam and 32 feet of matching and welding in the process. Then we began welding bulwark pipes and longitudinal stringers on while the plate was flat on the ground, and welding all deck beams and stringers on, on a work bench, before installing them, eliminating a lot of overhead welding. I cringe when I se people advocating still dong this welding overhead, in place, when it is so unnecessary,(unless you like that kind of hot shower) Then more clients started using stainless sch 40 pipe for bulwark caps, eliminating a lot of maintenance. We switched to using zinc rich cold galvanizing primer, to eliminate the need for sandblasting. My boat was done that way, and after 29 years 95% of the paint is as good as the day I put it on. Then we began using the centreline as tankage, most of the tankage already being there, in the form of the hull bottom. This gave us a triangulated, super strong point to attach the keel supports to, where the tank top meets the hull plate, both well curved. Then we went for 3x3x1/2 inch angles from the chine to this solid point for keel supports.
> We put a small window in the top of the tanks, so one could at any time, lift the floor boards, and see right to the bottom of the tanks.
> We turned the back of the single keel into a 70 gallon diesel tank, with a similar window in top.
> I started putting a small window by the forepeak bunk which allows you to see outside while laying in your bunk, and enabling you to see if you are dragging anchor or not, b y simply opening one eye.


So basically you're saying that totally guessing at everything you're doing, seeing that you've completely screwed it up when it fails its first test, then going back and guessing again, screwing it up again, over and over and over - is better than science?



Brent Swain said:


> Widely accepted "scientific theory" is constantly being disproven and revised. If it never was, we would still be stuck in the stone age.
> Every bit of human progress involved going against the widely accepted ways of doing things, and thinking. Without doing so, we would still be stuck in the stone age.


Yes but that only works if the human involved actually gets it right eventually. Otherwise, we are still stuck in the steel age.



Brent Swain said:


> Compulsive liars, all too often, have cost people their cruising dreams, and too much of their freedom!


Have you seen this thread:

BS Yachts Marketing Program


----------



## SloopJonB

djodenda said:


> In the mid-sixties, my father, a machinist at General Motors, was able to buy, maintain, and sail a boat (Shark 24) large enough to take my mother and us 4 kids for weekend sails in Michigan.
> 
> It was something he could afford to do, and maintain the boat without special skills!
> 
> We are all lucky to live in such a time.


If a machinist doesn't have "special skills", who does?  Machinists and until recently, patternmakers, are the royalty of skilled trades. Rapid prototyping is pretty well sending pattermakers the way of draftsmen but machinists still need to do the really specialized stuff that robots can't.

Bill Garden once wrote "All our boats are toy boats, merely the glint on a lovely, brief bubble of time, a time of leisure for the masses".

I think that described it perfectly.


----------



## SloopJonB

outbound said:


> You certainly have a eye. Both that red boat and the new version of the outbound look to have beautiful form with I expect great function. Self love is better than self hate as long as your not self centered. Go have a nice glass of wine with your swimmies on in your heated pool.


Hey, none of that self loving in the pool!


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> The thought of growing up to draw butt ugly, crude boats never entered my mind.
> 
> Kids think weird things.


Not at all. That fits exactly with a psychological study I read years ago. In it they described how successful people, as children, never doubted that they would be successful - the thought of failing at life simply never entered their minds.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> $39,500? Might sell for $29,000. Not too bad a looking boat.


Except for that odd little penthouse on the cabintop.


----------



## bobperry

Nice post Paulo.
I was feeling down tonight and you raised my spirits
I thank you for that..


----------



## Dean101

MikeJohns said:


> You keep saying this, you even said it to Tad himself and his reply is here: Swain BS_36 Stability curve - Page 18 - Boat Design Forums (where you are posting as Jack Hickson).
> 
> .


Mike, I'm glad you posted this. After reading some of the posts on that forum, it looks like even Brent's peers in steel design and building have concerns about his claims. Looks like he pulled the same stunts over there as he has been doing here. He's lost nearly all credibility with me (good ideas regarding steel maintenance excluded) and comes off like a used car salesman.


----------



## MikeJohns

Dean101 said:


> Mike, I'm glad you posted this. After reading some of the posts on that forum, it looks like even Brent's peers in steel design and building have concerns about his claims. Looks like he pulled the same stunts over there as he has been doing here. He's lost nearly all credibility with me (good ideas regarding steel maintenance excluded) and comes off like a used car salesman.


The many Engineers/NA's etc on the boat design site told Brent he was out of his tree when he tried to tell them his engineering knowledge went over their heads. When he started telling them they were too dim to understand his engineering arguments he had his credularity adjusted to untrustworthy.

He came back under the alias Jack Hickson and had the same happen again.

Then he posted earlier in this thread the dishonest statements:&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..

That the folks on BD net attacked him because he identifies as Canadian Aboriginal&#8230;.. 
That the Coast Guard posted on BD net on his behalf and were attacked&#8230;&#8230; 
That Dudly Dix emailed him that he'd been attacked on BD net as well&#8230;&#8230;
That Dix's SA builder, Wynand was a self proclaimed racist &#8230;&#8230;.
That I said shape has no affect on stiffness&#8230;&#8230;. etc

Just endless BS on and on and on I could quote screeds of it.

The even sillier claims he's made are even funny. For example that his boats can break their way through 3 feet of solid ice &#8230;&#8230;. That his boats are ultimately stable to 182 degrees&#8230;&#8230;..( that's a beauty). That they can T bone a high sided barge at hull speed with no damage, that they can pound in surf for days on end without damage, Pound over reefs, get hit by ships and bounce back for more unscathed.

He says they do all this because he's discovered an unknown engineering structural method called pre-compression. Most people understand pre-tension makes things stronger but Brent doesn't hold with that. His proof that it works is the collection of tales of incredible duress....... no other proof is necessary ( like a simple test, or an FEA model ) and anyone questioning this is simply too stupid to understand. Or science of engineering is likened to silly statements about bumble bees flight models or inoculations or something equally obscure. Or the engineer has an honesty problem.

None of the hyped up tales is ever validated, they are always just 2nd hand tale from Brent that often changes significantly with each telling. Or someone else's tall tale. They have become urban myth in the origami marketing network but there is little or even no truth behind many of the claims. But they are the very validation Brent cites that his method is stronger than anyone else's method. He then proclaims that other designers are corrupt and out to rob their clients with outdated complex engineering and time consuming construction methods. So it gets into some serious misrepresentation and misinformation.

The worst is that his designs are not only apparently dangerously unstable sea boats, they are also weaker than they need to be for the addition of a very small amount of material. But no amount of offer of help ( free help) to improve his designs helps, if you try and tell him that a part is poorly designed and will probably fail Brent just attacks the person offering, calls them names and misquotes what they said.

Brent's response is to actively vilify anyone who disagrees with him, they are either too dense to understand or are simply liars. And then he makes up a few more handy facts to valid his claim that they are afflicted with a tendency for dishonesty and or stupidity. He's tried it with me in this thread. Instead of a discussion he attempts to force the exchange into the equivalent of a bar room brawl.


----------



## bobperry

Mike me too. I'm glad you posted that link to the BD site and the BS thread. I did not read it all but I read a few pages. Those guys are brutal on BS.

A few things struck me:

Some of the guys posting there really know naval architecture
The thread was from 2004. Does BS never learn?
Claiming 175 degree LPS is ridiculous. BS simply doesn't understand stability as also evidenced by his total missunderstanding of why Tad wanted to do an incline test.
So, for at least 10 years BS has been posting the same crap. I'm amazed. The poor guy is either incapable of learning or he chooses not to learn. Either way it's sad.


----------



## PCP

MikeJohns said:


> ...
> The worst is that his designs are not only apparently dangerously unstable sea boats, ....


Why do you say this? It is true that stability curve makes no sense but a value of about 130º or even superior for an AVS is pretty good, the hull design has nothing new or interesting but it seems adequate to me and the boats are heavy contributing for the overall stability. Besides they sailed extensively offshore with a good proven record regarding seaworthiness.

So, why do you find them dangerously unstable?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## outbound

Looking at the Al boat made me recall article in a trade journal in which the owner of Waterline discussed paint. He commented on how hard it is to keep paint on Al c/w Fe. I see even many top end Al hulls ( K+M, Boreal, Kanter) boats are left bare. ? Why won't Al hold paint? ?Are there new paint systems for Al?


----------



## Jeff_H

PCP said:


> Why do you say this? It is true that stability curve makes no sense but a value of about 130º or even superior for an AVS is pretty good, the hull design has nothing new or interesting but it seems adequate to me and the boats are heavy contributing for the overall stability. Besides they sailed extensively offshore with a good proven record regarding seaworthiness.
> 
> So, why do you find them dangerously unstable?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo 
I see you point, if Brent's boat's have an APS of 130 degrees, then they are reasonably stable . But I think that this APS is still to be proven. In order to accurately model the righting moments curve, you need to know the position of the vertical center of gravity. That is most easily obtained through a simple inclination test. In the absence of a known VCG the APS claimed is merely a conjecture.

In the preliminary design stage, for simple rough validation, from experience most knowledgable and experienced yacht designers can guess at the VCG's for a design type they have worked on with some frequency. I would think that the Brent boats have a number of unusual design features which would make a seat of the pants estimate difficult. For example, on the positive side Brent claims that his masts and pilot houses are air tight. And there is the boats moderate beam. That would help with stability at large heel angles. On the negative side, there are the heavy weights of a steel deck and deckhouse, a steel mast, and low density ballast.

Without modeling the buoyancy of the pilot house and mast, and without an actual VCG, it's hard to know how these contradictory factors resolve themselves, and therefore any claims regarding the APS is purely unsubstantiated speculation.

Jeff


----------



## PCP

Jeff_H said:


> Paulo
> I see you point, if Brent's boat's have an APS of 130 degrees, then they are reasonably stable . But I think that this APS is still to be proven. In order to accurately model the righting moments curve, you need to know the position of the vertical center of gravity. That is most easily obtained through a simple inclination test. In the absence of a known VCG the APS claimed is merely a conjecture.
> 
> In the preliminary design stage, for simple rough validation, from experience most knowledgable and experienced yacht designers can guess at the VCG's for a design type they have worked on with some frequency. I would think that the Brent boats have a number of unusual design features which would make a seat of the pants estimate difficult. For example, on the positive side Brent claims that his masts and pilot houses are air tight. And there is the boats moderate beam. That would help with stability at large heel angles. On the negative side, there are the heavy weights of a steel deck and deckhouse, a steel mast, and low density ballast.
> 
> Without modeling the buoyancy of the pilot house and mast, and without an actual VCG, it's hard to know how these contradictory factors resolve themselves, and therefore any claims regarding the APS is purely unsubstantiated speculation.
> 
> Jeff


Tad Roberts had a good look at it and found a number superior to 130º for the AVS:



MikeJohns said:


> ..
> Tad says 131 degrees based on the lines you provide and his most thorough estimate of weights and moments which he gave you for free to comment on and modify if required.
> That was his final figure, anything else was preliminary and was altered as the study progressed and t*hat included a 3d computer model of the hull*.
> 
> ..disproves Tad Roberts best estimate of the center of gravity from his weights and moments study, then you should only quote 131 degrees. To tell anyone anything else is misrepresentation. Especially now it's been explained to you clearly several times.
> ...


Bob Perry guessed something similar and looking at the design and numbers I would say that the boat has at least an AVS of 120º that for an heavy steel boat is already a very acceptable number that is common in many designs of this type.

As I said everything seems "normal" on the BS 36ft design even if pretty conservative and even out dated. Bob expressed already a similar opinion.

I cannot understand how someone can say that design is: *"dangerously unstable"*

He says that based in what?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Jaramaz

outbound said:


> Looking at the Al boat made me recall article in a trade journal in which the owner of Waterline discussed paint. He commented on how hard it is to keep paint on Al c/w Fe. I see even many top end Al hulls ( K+M, Boreal, Kanter) boats are left bare. ? Why won't Al hold paint? ?Are there new paint systems for Al?


Most metalls are "difficult" to paint, ie they are not like wood or GRP. Most metals should be treated with something prior to painting. This treatment is crucial as it makes the paint get a better grip. Similar, control of environmental conditions (as humidity, temp) is important prior and durng painting and while the paint dry. 
Al is in principle not different from other metals, but care has to be taken as it is easy that some moisture creeps in, resulting in some corrosion followed by paint lifting. 
Most airplanes are made of Al. Most of these are painted, parts or in full. Studying airplanes, which I have had my share of, the paints seems to stick on in spite of very high temp diffs, abrashion with dust in relative high speed and so on.

/J


----------



## Lou452

outbound said:


> Looking at the Al boat made me recall article in a trade journal in which the owner of Waterline discussed paint. He commented on how hard it is to keep paint on Al c/w Fe. I see even many top end Al hulls ( K+M, Boreal, Kanter) boats are left bare. ? Why won't Al hold paint? ?Are there new paint systems for Al?


It is clear that we can paint aluminum looking at the reference to airplanes and the harsh conditions the paint has to endure Low temperature at altitude high temperature on the tarmac and high speed dust abrasion. The temps change rapidly on takeoff and landing.
Next up Ford will have an all Aluminum F-150 for 2015 ? My guess is it will be painted. I am sure they will have some paint issues. This will bring about more research and this will slowly make its way out to the public. Then behold we will have new paint systems. 
Good day, Lou


----------



## Jeff_H

PCP said:


> Tad Roberts had a good look at it and found a number superior to 130º for the AVS
> 
> I cannot understand how someone can say that design is: *"dangerously unstable"*
> 
> He says that based in what?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I agree that an AVS OF 130 would not be considered 'dangerously unstable' but I think that the point about Tad Robert's calculation of the AVS was that Tad did not have an accurate VCG and so the number is at best an approximation, and at worst totally bogus.

Jeff


----------



## bobperry

I'm with Paulo on this. If BS boats have a LPS of 125 degs then I would not call them "dangerously unstable"". I think with their single chine, high deadrise shape coupled with modest beam they will suffer for initial stability but I'd stick with my 125 to 130 degs estimate for LPS. But there is a caveat.

I'd love to know what a steel, welded mast weighs. I suspect it is at least double that of an alu stick. That can dramatically raise the VCG.

I was working on a 56'er. I came in one Monday morning and looked at the weight study file. The VCG was abnormally high. I knew something had gone wrong so I began going over the numbers. When I got to the rig section of the weight study I noticed that I had input the weight of the mast twice by accident. It was one of those mistakes that becomes a very usefull lesson.

What I am getting at is that if a BS boat has a welded steel mast the VCG could be 6" above the DWL and that would have a huge effect on stability. I really don't know BS boats very well, only from what I see in th pics posted. BS is extremely reluctant top post his "design" work. But from what I see, if the boat has an alu mast, say the 36'er, I'd guess VCG to be 1" above the DWL maybe 2". I agree with Jeff. Hard to wax on about stability without an accurate VCG.

Obviously we can't ask BS because I know better then to believe anything he posts. I think I would trust Tad's work on this. He put some time in on it and he knows naval architecture.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> I'm with Paulo on this. If BS boats have a LPS of 125 degs then I would not call them "dangerously unstable"". I think with their single chine, high deadrise shape coupled with modest beam they will suffer for initial stability but I'd stick with my 125 to 130 degs estimate for LPS. But there is a caveat.
> 
> I'd love to know what a steel, welded mast weighs. I suspect it is at least double that of an alu stick. That can dramatically raise the VCG.
> 
> I was working on a 56'er. I came in one Monday morning and looked at the weight study file. The VCG was abnormally high. I knew something had gone wrong so I began going over the numbers. When I got to the rig section of the weight study I noticed that I had input the weight of the mast twice by accident. It was one of those mistakes that becomes a very usefull lesson.
> 
> What I am getting at is that if a BS boat has a welded steel mast the VCG could be 6" above the DWL and that would have a huge effect on stability. I really don't know BS boats very well, only from what I see in th pics posted. BS is extremely reluctant top post his "design" work. But from what I see, if the boat has an alu mast, say the 36'er, I'd guess VCG to be 1" above the DWL maybe 2". I agree with Jeff. Hard to wax on about stability without an accurate VCG.
> 
> Obviously we can't ask BS because I know better then to believe anything he posts. I think I would trust Tad's work on this. He put some time in on it and he knows naval architecture.


You know what's really scary about all this? I barely understand what you guys are saying - and I'm an ex-architect. You guys, and the guys on BDnet, are _experts_ on this stuff...and you're concerned.

Now, take a look at BS's target market. These are people that, for the most part, have no idea what VCG or AVS or even LWS means. They are, by his own description, "cruiser wannabes".

All they have is _*trust*_ that Brent is an honest expert who has fully addressed all of these factors in his calculations...when it appears he doesn't even know what many of them mean.

That is scary. When a guy tells you he's an expert yacht designer - you kind of need to believe he's telling you the truth.

If I were a cruiser wannabe, and I came across these concerns from _real experts_, I'd be wondering if the trust I'm about to place in the vague BS drawings I'm about to spend hundreds of dollars for - then the several years and many tens-of-thousandes of dollars I'm about to throw into BUILDING THAT HUNK OF STEEL MYSELF AS AN AMATEUR!!! - might be a bit misplaced.

I think potential death by Fukushima Debris is a much, much better bet.


----------



## ccriders

Lou452 said:


> Next up Ford will have an all Aluminum F-150 for 2015 ? My guess is it will be painted. I am sure they will have some paint issues. This will bring about more research and this will slowly make its way out to the public. Then behold we will have new paint systems.
> Good day, Lou


Maybe the information is already there - in the bicycle industry. About twenty five tears ago when the aluminum bicycles were making their first big splash on in the US market, paint was a major problem. Between flexing and inevitable scraping and scratching, sweat would find its way between metal and paint and soon large patches of paint would flake away exposing a fine coat of aluminum oxide. Today's paint jobs are much better and the best (for adherence) were an epoxy powder coating process. Also, for bonded frames anodization worked pretty well. I wonder what they are doing today as even cheap discount store bicycles are made from welded aluminum frames.
John


----------



## Lou452

Good point, John They have been painting bikes for years ! 
Good day , Lou


----------



## tommays

I build an paint a rather nice bicycle and have fixed enough Cannondale paint jobs

They fail because of obsessive needless weight control vs the weight of enough paint that will last more then a year

keep in mind a long lasting paint job will add 1 pound to a 57 cm frame 











Same thing with a mast almost nobody wants to pay what it cost to do the job correctly and again its freaking heavy







When i painted the Cal 29 with Alwgrip working outside after the primer was done required a 7 month delay after i lost my window in the fall after Earl the hurricane that never happened

If you do not wait for the right humidity it kills the gloss


----------



## Brent Swain

Not enough paint is the main cause of maintenance problems on steel boats as well. Some commercial builders like it thin, because it gives one a smoother finish with less work. The thicker it gets, the more inclined it is to need a lot of work to keep it smooth, the wrong priorities on a full time cruising boat. If you can still see the weld pattern thru the paint, it is definitely not thick enough.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Looking at the Al boat made me recall article in a trade journal in which the owner of Waterline discussed paint. He commented on how hard it is to keep paint on Al c/w Fe. I see even many top end Al hulls ( K+M, Boreal, Kanter) boats are left bare. ? Why won't Al hold paint? ?Are there new paint systems for Al?


Bruce Cope ( of Cope Aluminium Boats, in Parksville BC) told me that the only reliable way he could get paint to stick to aluminium was to sandblast it lightly. A light blasting with 16 grit sand gives a very rough, sharply keyed surface, a far better surface than aluminium with an etch primer on it. He tried etch primer, but said the vinyl based etch primer was softer than the epoxy which went over it, making the epoxy far more prone to chipping. Epoxy over freshly sand blasted aluminium was the best.

I've used vinegar to remove the oxide from aluminium and galvanized steel , before painting, with good results.


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> I agree that an AVS OF 130 would not be considered 'dangerously unstable' but I think that the point about Tad Robert's calculation of the AVS was that Tad did not have an accurate VCG and so the number is at best an approximation, and at worst totally bogus.
> 
> Jeff


That first calculation was based on a much lower freeboard, which we abandoned in the early 80s. Tad posted a calculation based on the current freeboard on my 36 ,5 1/2 inches higher amidships, which gave him an AVS of 165 degrees, which he posted on BD.net 
How many stock boats have that high an AVS, let alone the 175 degrees Jim calculated, and posted on the origamiboats site?
My steel mast has a buoyancy equal to its dry weight, which adds a huge amount of self righting moment , far more than that of an unsealed aluminium mast, full of water.


----------



## Brent Swain

Dean101 said:


> Mike, I'm glad you posted this. After reading some of the posts on that forum, it looks like even Brent's peers in steel design and building have concerns about his claims. Looks like he pulled the same stunts over there as he has been doing here. He's lost nearly all credibility with me (good ideas regarding steel maintenance excluded) and comes off like a used car salesman.


Scroll a little further and you will find his 165 degree stability curve, based on my current 36 footer freeboard, as we have been building since 1984. Or you could check out the files section of the origamiboats site and find Jims computer calculations showing a 175 degree stability curve.
I don't consider luddite Neanderthals, who cling to outdated building methods , as my peers.
Norm Moore posted a comment on the origamiboats site, about a couple building a Roberts design from a pre cut kit, being proud of having taken 116 days to get a 36 ft hull together, something I have done in two days.
I would much rather you build your boat their way. Let me know where, so I can sit in the shade and watch you waste months of your time, following the Neanderthalls' advice


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Scroll a little further and you will find his 165 degree stability curve, based on my current 36 footer freeboard, as we have been building since 1984. Or you could check out the files section of the origamiboats site and find Jims computer calculations showing a 175 degree stability curve.
> I don't consider luddite Neanderthals, who cling to outdated building methods , as my peers.
> Norm Moore posted a comment on the origamiboats site, about a couple building a Roberts design from a pre cut kit, being proud of having taken 116 days to get a 36 ft hull together, something I have done in two days.
> I would much rather you build your boat their way. Let me know where, so I can sit in the shade and watch you waste months of your time, following the Neanderthalls' advice


So you're saying Norm Moore, of the Western Australian Legeslative Council, is a Luddite Neanderthal?

Does he know that?


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> So basically you're saying that totally guessing at everything you're doing, seeing that you've completely screwed it up when it fails its first test, then going back and guessing again, screwing it up again, over and over and over - is better than science?
> 
> Yes but that only works if the human involved actually gets it right eventually. Otherwise, we are still stuck in the steel age.
> 
> Have you seen this thread:
> 
> BS Yachts Marketing Program


The BS marketing program would be great post, if you ignore or delete the white parts. I stand by all my comments . 
If you run a felt pen thru the naïve ramblings of the yappy little Texas Chihuahua, trying to write between the lines, and get attention he doesn't deserve , and keep only the blue part ,you will have a GOLD MINE of information. It would be a great post, without the yappy little chihauhua trying to make himself feel important, by yapping at the heels of the St Bernard.
However, such is the way of the yappy little dogs, and their "small dog complex", who feel so insignificant (Which they are) .
Funny thing . I don't see the words fat or ugly in any of my posts. Seems the yappy little dog is dyslexic, and his comments are obviously those of a dyslexic . They should be taken as such!

(Dyslexics of the world UNTIE)

Apologies for the typos . Don't have infinite time to correct them.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> The BS marketing program would be great post, if you ignore or delete the white parts. I stand by all my comments .
> If you run a felt pen thru the naïve ramblings of the yappy little Texas Chihuahua, trying to write between the lines, and get attention he doesn't deserve , and keep only the blue part ,you will have a GOLD MINE of information. It would be a great post, without the yappy little chihauhua trying to make himself feel important, by yapping at the heels of the St Bernard.
> However, such is the way of the yappy little dogs, and their "small dog complex", who feel so insignificant (Which they are) .
> Funny thing . I don't see the words fat or ugly in any of my posts. Seems the yappy little dog is dyslexic, and his comments are obviously those of a dyslexic . They should be taken as such!
> 
> (Dyslexics of the world UNTIE)
> 
> Apologies for the typos . Don't have infinite time to correct them.


Hey, I AM important. And I deserve lots of attention. Because I'm right.

I agree with Bob, you have to be hitting the sauce from that barrel around your neck. Sober people just don't talk like you do...St. Bernard Swain.


----------



## SloopJonB

Re: painting aluminium bikes - why aren't they simply anodized? Lots of really cool colours available and it would weigh next to nothing since it's merely a type of dye.


----------



## Dean101

Brent Swain said:


> Scroll a little further and you will find his 165 degree stability curve, based on my current 36 footer freeboard, as we have been building since 1984. Or you could check out the files section of the origamiboats site and find Jims computer calculations showing a 175 degree stability curve.
> I don't consider luddite Neanderthals, who cling to outdated building methods , as my peers.
> Norm Moore posted a comment on the origamiboats site, about a couple building a Roberts design from a pre cut kit, being proud of having taken 116 days to get a 36 ft hull together, something I have done in two days.
> I would much rather you build your boat their way. Let me know where, so I can sit in the shade and watch you waste months of your time, following the Neanderthalls' advice


Sorry Brent, I assumed you would understand what a hypothetical scenario was. My bad. No, I'm not going to believe you, I'm not going to hunt for the information, and no, I'm not going to build a boat. If you want to actually back up anything you have to say, then you post it since you have been quoting it so much. Hoorah for you! You can weld faster than the Moore's. That's saying a lot. But until you quit blowing hot air and actually start posting some things that put substance in your gas, I'll just keep laughing at the funny smell.


----------



## MikeJohns

PCP said:


> Why do you say this? It is true that stability curve makes no sense but a value of about 130º or even superior for an AVS is pretty good, the hull design has nothing new or interesting but it seems adequate to me and the boats are heavy contributing for the overall stability. Besides they sailed extensively offshore with a good proven record regarding seaworthiness.
> 
> So, why do you find them dangerously unstable?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Good to see some feedback  I guess I should have said could be dangerously unstable. 
Tad's estimate for 130 degrees was without the cruising load and added equipment that tends to accumulate on a boat and that reduces stability considerably more than the half tanked minimal hull consideration, he had mentioned that to Brent before. It could reduce the limit of positive stability easily by 30 degrees. An inclining test on a cruising boat with all gear extant and in position is the real test. It's one you'd expect Brent would really want to know about having mislead so many of his clients for so many years telling them the design is stable to almost the full 180 degrees.

I've done a lot of stability studies on sailboats and the inclining test is often a real eye opener for the owner. The published stability curve from production boats is an ideal and they may not even make allowance for the gear the boat is actually sold with, let alone the owners additional cruising gear. Some designers work up all sorts of extras in their weights study some just treat it like a bare boned racing boat.

ISO STIX labelling is becoming something of a standard requirement but what you think of STIX is another matter and many designers aren't happy that it accurately reflects the seaworthiness of a sailboat.

The longer a boat the bigger the sea it can cope with, with a lower risk of being inverted, and the stability can be reduced accordingly. Considering Brent has common designs for 27 to 36 feet and more recently a 40 footer and he promotes them for high latitude offshore sailing then stability is the real key to safety.

Here's a good illustration of the 98 Hobart fleets inversions and their length relative to limit of positive stability superimposed on the UK requirements for sailing boats carrying public.


----------



## PCP

MikeJohns said:


> Good to see some feedback  I guess I should have said could be dangerously unstable.
> Tad's estimate for 130 degrees was without the cruising load and added equipment that tends to accumulate on a boat and that reduces stability considerably more than the half tanked minimal hull consideration, he had mentioned that to Brent before. It could reduce the limit of positive stability easily by 30 degrees. An inclining test on a cruising boat with all gear extant and in position is the real test. It's one you'd expect Brent would really want to know about having mislead so many of his clients for so many years telling them the design is stable to almost the full 180 degrees.
> 
> I've done a lot of stability studies on sailboats and the inclining test is often a real eye opener for the owner. The published stability curve from production boats is an ideal and they may not even make allowance for the gear the boat is actually sold with, let alone the owners additional cruising gear. Some designers work up all sorts of extras in their weights study some just treat it like a bare boned racing boat.
> 
> ISO STIX labelling is becoming something of a standard requirement but what you think of STIX is another matter and many designers aren't happy that it accurately reflects the seaworthiness of a sailboat.
> 
> The longer a boat the bigger the sea it can cope with, with a lower risk of being inverted, and the stability can be reduced accordingly. Considering Brent has common designs for 27 to 36 feet and more recently a 40 footer and he promotes them for high latitude offshore sailing then stability is the real key to safety.
> 
> Here's a good illustration of the 98 Hobart fleets inversions and their length relative to limit of positive stability superimposed on the UK requirements for sailing boats carrying public.


Yes I agree that any 36 ft boat is a bad idea for high latitude and I agree that misleading information is plain wrong but then regarding 36ft boats the ones from Brent seem better to me regarding stability then the common mass market offers, they have at least a similar AVS and the superior mass of Brent's boat will give it a superior stability. what you say regarding storage and equipment is as true to Brent's boats as to any other boat.

Yes I agree that STIX as a measure of a boat seaworthiness makes no sense mostly because it gives a big negative importance to a boats sail area, as if a sail could not be easily reefed or taken out. I really don't understand that criteria that is responsible to a lot of distortions regarding STIX.

A performance boat with a huge stability running in stormy conditions with storm sails is a lot safer than a typical cruising boat with a considerable smaller stability sailing on the same conditions. In most cases the cruising boat because it can carry much less sail (because it has less stability), on account of that smaller sail area has a better STIX (assuming identical AVS).

Regards

Paulo


----------



## bobperry

I am amazed. After mire than ten years and being ridiculed on the BD forum to the point that he changed his name to "Jack Hickson"? in order to defend himself only to get even more ridicule as Jack Hickson he still clings to the idea that his 36'er has a LPS of 165 degrees?

Keep in mind this claim comes from a guy who doesn't understand the use of an inclining test in a stability study. Very curious for someone claiming to be a yacht designer. I'll let this photo do my claiming for me.


Also this is a guy who in a discussion over Wolfenzee's boat claimed the LPS for Wolf's boat could be as high as 182 degrees! I literally chuckled for days after that.

In claiming a LPS of 165 degs for his 36'er BS just proves he knows nothing about stability. As usual he had picked up little fragments of naval architecture and then tried to glue them into a picture he likes. But the way he glues the pieces reminds me of that scene in GOONIES when the kids break the mother's statue of David and glue it back together with David's dick upside down. As reconstructed by BS/Jack Hickson the finished picture makes no sense. Having been involved with sailing vessels as long as he has I can't understand how BS can be so confused over the math and mechanics of stability. This is a subject I tackled when I was a kid. I knew it would be critical to my work. Just a quick look at stability studies of other, similar proportioned boats should be enough to teach BS that his whole approach must be fundamentally flawed.

On the other hand, it's been flawed for over ten years so I now must think that Brent is incapable of learning the basics of stability. He still doesn't get it. Buying a set of plans from a guy who doesn't understand stability must be comforting. No?

Yow!
I just went back and read more of the posts from that 2008 BD forum. Those guys are pretty hard on old Jack Hickson aka BS aka Brent.

"Your boats are extremely ugly and an insult to steel boats in general - geez, that ugly slit and corner at the bottom:eek"

I don't think I have been quite that direct.


----------



## outbound

Still its too bad in a way the concept of bilge keels hasn't been more aggressively pursued in recent years. To my simple understanding if you had twin bulbed keels you might get very reasonable stability without major draft and ability to careen while being upright in a large tidal zone much like the British do.


----------



## bobperry

Out:
We need Paulo on this. He has posted several new European models that have modern fin and bulb tandem keels. They look quite good. But there is little to gain from having two crude, low aspect ratio BS keels other than the ability to have the boat stand on it's "feet" when the tide goes out.


----------



## PCP

bobperry said:


> Out:
> We need Paulo on this. He has posted several new European models that have modern fin and bulb tandem keels. They look quite good. But there is little to gain from having two crude, low aspect ratio BS keels other than the ability to have the boat stand on it's "feet" when the tide goes out.


Nice of you to say that even if I believe you know more than enough about it.

Some interesting information even if not necessarily not biased:

http://andycunninghammarine.co.uk/documents/ObservationsandthoughtsonTwinKeels.pdf

Bray Yacht Design and Research Ltd. - The Advantages of Twin Keels

Of course you know quite well that in what regards efficiency nothing beats draft and an elongated torpedo keel but in what regards the need of low draft a twin keel can be an overall better solution than a wing keel. Sure it can be designed a very efficient wing keel but an efficient one will be fragile due to needed small profile of the wings that are on the lower part of the keel.

A twin keel is not fragile and can take the weight of the boat allowing it to stand for drying up and that has many advantages, not only in remote places for repairs but also in tidal waters or even to have the boat stored in land.

Like the wing keels, a good performance twin keel has to be profiled and hydro-dynamically studied for having a low drag but contrary to the wings of a wing keel that means not necessarily a weak one since in most cases those keels are a single steel structure.

They also have advantages in what regards roll and sea motion comfort. I believe that on those two links are covered most of the advantages.

I posted also about them on interesting sailboat thread namely a comparison performance on the same boat with each type of keel by Marc Lombard.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/990492-post3585.html

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1022791-post4006.html

Regards

Paulo


----------



## outbound

Thank you Paulo- Very interesting reads. Particularly like the concept of having asymmetrically chords to the keels. I have no experience of twin keeled boat let alone those with modern appendages. Just wonder if with the narrow chord of the fin and the greater lateral plane of the bulb is there a difficulty when these boats are subjected to unintentional groundings. Do they act as anchors if the bulb extends forward of the fin?Is that why the bulbs only extend aft? Too wit, are you forced to free the boat by going directly backwards with no other choices and then in trouble if the bulb digs in? I would think there is no issue if you can wait out the tide and float off ( presuming there is a sufficient tide). I would think twin keels would make it difficult to pivot off and be subject to damage to the high aspect portion of the fin being placed in torsion if of modern design. Is this thinking wrong?


----------



## Faster

I think for a cruiser the T keels are more problematic than the bulbs 'aft only' mainly in that a T keel will never shed kelp or other flotsam that might get snagged by accident.

I can see a big advantage in general with the modern twin keels that are built to be able to dry out.. paint/repair anywhere with a tide, if you're not on a schedule you'd have access to coves no one else is likely to get to.. The RMs tick quite a few boxes for me..


----------



## bobperry

Out:
Are you sure about asym foils? It's not like you can retract one keel. I'd think the fins would need to be symetrical.

Keeping the bulb aft of the leading edge just means less trouble catching kelp. On the Sliver project I preferred a T keel but the client did not want a kelp cutter so we went with the L config form the bulb.

I think you make a good point about ground and getting off by pivoting. Around here as soon as you ground the first thing to do is to heel the boat over to reduce draft. That would be a problem with tandem keels.


----------



## outbound

Same here. Either back wind the sails or put a kedge off the spin halyard with line going straight abeam. Given Weight Watchers hasn't taken hold yet sometimes my fat butt out on the pole will work. Don't see how you would do that with bilge keels. So far only hit sand and still counting times on one hand after 30+ years. Still, hate that when it happens. Makes you humble.
Maybe I miss understood Andy's article.


----------



## blt2ski

Not sure if a stability index is the same as AVS, but these are the newest numbers needed for racing fr US Sailing. The 110 is for off shore, 103 for near shore, nothing for daytime races per say.

IF AVS is this number, then Brents boats, like it or not, do meet this requirement for off shore racing. The 130 AVS seems reasonably stiff to me. Not that I would want one of his designs mind you, unless I wanted a coral bouncer.........

Hull and 
Structure: 
Stability
2.2.1
The boat must have a stability index greater than or equal to 110, or meet the 
requirements of ISO 12217
-*‐
1A

Hull and 
Structure: 
Stability
2.2.2
The boat must have a stability index greater than or equal to 103 or meet the 
requirements of ISO 12217
-*‐
2B


----------



## Jeff_H

Marty:

The ISO Stability Index is not at all the same thing as AVS. There really is no relevant relationship between the two numbers.

Jeff



blt2ski said:


> Not sure if a stability index is the same as AVS, but these are the newest numbers needed for racing fr US Sailing. The 110 is for off shore, 103 for near shore, nothing for daytime races per say.
> 
> IF AVS is this number, then Brents boats, like it or not, do meet this requirement for off shore racing. The 130 AVS seems reasonably stiff to me. Not that I would want one of his designs mind you, unless I wanted a coral bouncer.........
> 
> Hull and
> Structure:
> Stability
> 2.2.1
> The boat must have a stability index greater than or equal to 110, or meet the
> requirements of ISO 12217
> -*‐
> 1A
> 
> Hull and
> Structure:
> Stability
> 2.2.2
> The boat must have a stability index greater than or equal to 103 or meet the
> requirements of ISO 12217
> -*‐
> 2B


----------



## blt2ski

Thanks Jeff,

I thought they were different numbers, but..........sometimes ones brain electron can not remember EVERYTHING!

Marty


----------



## Jeff_H

The discussion with Brent last week about the impact of having a sealed steel mast vs a flooded aluminum spar left me a bit curious. I do not know what size tubing Brent uses for masts, so I made an assumption and out of curiousity, I looked up the weight of a 6" diameter standard weight steel tube and the volume of air that would be trapped within it. A 6" diameter standard weight steel round tube weights 18.97 lbs per foot. The trapped air in it would provide 11.4 lbs of flotation. That amounts to an after floatation mast weight of 7.57 lbs per foot. In other words, even with the floatation from the trapped air, inverted, the submerged mast will still weigh 7.57 lbs more than its floatation. 

I compared that to an aluminum mast section with a similar E*I and Fb*S. That mast weighs 5.9 lbs per foot. In other words, lighter than the weight of the steel mast even with the buoyancy from the trapped air.

On the other hand, I am not clear in my own mind on how to treat the water within the mast. The aluminum mast would hold approximately 12.3 lbs of water per foot. That would take the combined weight to 18.2 lbs clearly heavier than the buoyed steel mast. But arguably as the mast surfaces, that water can excape as quickly as it comes in. 

What is clear is that with a mast that weighs 18.97 lbs vs a 5.9 lb mast, you will end up either a lot more prone to capsize or with a whole lot more ballast. 

Jeff


----------



## smackdaddy

Jeff_H said:


> In other words, even with the floatation from the trapped air, inverted, the submerged mast will still weigh 7.57 lbs more than its floatation.


Jeff, you obviously need to check your math. St. Bernard Swain kindly provided the following detailed calculation:



Brent Swain said:


> How many stock boats have that high an AVS, let alone the 175 degrees Jim calculated, and posted on the origamiboats site?
> My steel mast has a buoyancy equal to its dry weight, which adds a huge amount of self righting moment , far more than that of an unsealed aluminium mast, full of water.


Now, how can your "negative buoyancy" of 7.57 lbs per foot of mast (maybe 400+ total lbs pulling BS' boat down to the bottom) ADD "a huge amount of self righting moment" - up to 182 degrees? As you say, that would mean an aluminum mast full of water would be better than St. Swain's steel mast! Ha! No way.

Back to the calculator old chum.


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Not sure if a stability index is the same as AVS, but these are the newest numbers needed for racing fr US Sailing. The 110 is for off shore, 103 for near shore, nothing for daytime races per say.
> 
> IF AVS is this number, then Brents boats, like it or not, do meet this requirement for off shore racing. The 130 AVS seems reasonably stiff to me. Not that I would want one of his designs mind you, unless I wanted a coral bouncer.........
> 
> Hull and
> Structure:
> Stability
> 2.2.1
> The boat must have a stability index greater than or equal to 110, or meet the
> requirements of ISO 12217
> -*‐
> 1A
> 
> Hull and
> Structure:
> Stability
> 2.2.2
> The boat must have a stability index greater than or equal to 103 or meet the
> requirements of ISO 12217
> -*‐
> 2B


Yes, that number regards the AVS.

The ISAF rules for category 0 demand more if the boat is not certified by ISO 12217-2 (RCD):

Either AVS in ORC Rating System of not less than 120 or a minimum STIX value of 32 and AVS not less than 130 - 0.002*m (Where "m" 
is the mass of the boat in the minimum operating condition as defined by ISO 
12217-2.)

But this are minimum standards and the AVS is only a part of the story. Weight and size of the boat has a huge influence on the overall boat stability. If the weight of Brent's boats are a positive factor in their overall stability, the size (that also relates with weight) is on a kind of limit zone when you call it a boat for sailing in high latitudes.

Let's say that for a 36ft Brent's boat (if not overcharged) has a better stability than most 36ft, specially considering mass production ones (due to his bigger weight).

Brent has the idea that his boat has a big loading capacity and if someone takes that to the letter and overcharge the boat, the stability can be compromised (on his boat or in any boat). In fact, as Bob had already explained, a good well designed modern light boat with the same weight of Brent's boat (a bigger boat) will not only have a bigger overall stability as it can carry a bigger load.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## blt2ski

Paulo,

You make more sense than Jeff, but it does appear to be in the vane I was thinking it was. Granted I do not know ALL the fine portions of the rules, facts etc. Yes, these two lines items are only "part" of the total what one needs for offshore vs inshore vs dinghy racing if one wants to go this route. There are MANY more parts to this rule etc.

Marty


----------



## SloopJonB

Blt - AVS is *A*ngle of *V*anishing *S*tability. That is the angle of heel at which the boat will cease righting itself and will continue to roll into full capsize.

It is an extremely important component of a boats overall stability but only a component.


----------



## PCP

blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> You make more sense than Jeff, but it does appear to be in the vane I was thinking it was. Granted I do not know ALL the fine portions of the rules, facts etc. Yes, these two lines items are only "part" of the total what one needs for offshore vs inshore vs dinghy racing if one wants to go this route. There are MANY more parts to this rule etc.
> 
> Marty


Jeff is right too when he says that there is no relevant relationship between the two numbers (AVS and STIX).

On the formula to calculate STIX enters the AVS but it is just a factor among others.

http://www.blur.se/images/irc-stix-2008.pdf

http://ebookily.net/pdf/iso-12217-2-sailing-boats-of-length-greater-than-or-equal-to-96940149.html#

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Dean101

PCP said:


> Yes, that number regards the AVS.
> 
> The ISAF rules for category 0 demand more if the boat is not certified by ISO 12217-2 (RCD):
> 
> Either AVS in ORC Rating System of not less than 120 or a minimum STIX value of 32 and AVS not less than 130 - 0.002*m (Where "m"
> is the mass of the boat in the minimum operating condition as defined by ISO
> 12217-2.)
> 
> But this are minimum standards and the AVS is only a part of the story. Weight and size of the boat has a huge influence on the overall boat stability. If the weight of Brent's boats are a positive factor in their overall stability, the size (that also relates with weight) is on a kind of limit zone when you call it a boat for sailing in high latitudes.
> 
> Let's say that for a 36ft Brent's boat (if not overcharged) has a better stability than most 36ft, specially considering mass production ones (due to his bigger weight).
> 
> Brent has the idea that his boat has a big loading capacity and if someone takes that to the letter and overcharge the boat, the stability can be compromised (on his boat or in any boat). *In fact, as Bob had already explained, a good well designed modern light boat with the same weight of Brent's boat (a bigger boat) will not only have a bigger overall stability as it can carry a bigger load.*
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I'm not sure if I completely understand this concept. This is how I'm visualizing it;

Up to a point and depending on the location, weight (displacement) increases stability. At a certain point it starts to negatively affect stability. If I load an already heavy displacement boat (such as Brent's) with the additional weight of cruising gear and equipment and assuming I try to keep heavy items low and light items high wherever possible, I may raise the displacement to a point that it negatively affects stability. If I load a light displacement boat of similar hull dimensions with the same weight and load distribution, I am in essence only increasing displacement and therefore stability. It takes more weight to reach the point of negative impact.

In other words; Assuming two hulls built with the same shape, length, bean, etc, one heavy because it is built from steel and one light and built from cored fiberglass or whatever. The heavier hull has less tolerance to weight because its own weight is closer to the point where the entire boat will just sink, like piling rocks on a flat board until it sinks in a pond. The light boat can accept more weight before reaching that point.

Is that basically what Bob was talking about?


----------



## PCP

Dean101 said:


> I'm not sure if I completely understand this concept. This is how I'm visualizing it;
> 
> Up to a point and depending on the location, weight (displacement) increases stability. At a certain point it starts to negatively affect stability. If I load an already heavy displacement boat (such as Brent's) with the additional weight of cruising gear and equipment and assuming I try to keep heavy items low and light items high wherever possible, I may raise the displacement to a point that it negatively affects stability. If I load a light displacement boat of similar hull dimensions with the same weight and load distribution, I am in essence only increasing displacement and therefore stability. It takes more weight to reach the point of negative impact.
> 
> In other words; Assuming two hulls built with the same shape, length, bean, etc, one heavy because it is built from steel and one light and built from cored fiberglass or whatever. The heavier hull has less tolerance to weight because its own weight is closer to the point where the entire boat will just sink, like piling rocks on a flat board until it sinks in a pond. The light boat can accept more weight before reaching that point.
> 
> Is that basically what Bob was talking about?


No. He certainly can explain better but he was talking about two boats with the same displacement, an heavy one and a light one and that means that the light one to have the same displacement has to be considerably bigger.

Regarding two boats of the same length and beam, one heavy and other lighter, assuming that both are well designed it does not work the same way.

The heavier one will have a lot more ballast (assuming that both have similar keels and the same ballast ratio) and if you are correct in saying that the lighter boat can take more weight without sinking it is also true that the same weight will have a bigger influence in raising the boat CG making it more unstable at considerable angles of heel diminishing in much the AVS.

In short, the load will represent a much bigger proportion regarding the ballast of the lighter boat than to the ballast of the heavier one. If the load is excessive, even if properly stored it will only increase stability at smaller angles of heel making the boat dangerous if by any reason it heels considerably.

That's why each NA gives for each boat a max load one that will allow it to have a non dangerous AVS.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> The discussion with Brent last week about the impact of having a sealed steel mast vs a flooded aluminum spar left me a bit curious. I do not know what size tubing Brent uses for masts, so I made an assumption and out of curiousity, I looked up the weight of a 6" diameter standard weight steel tube and the volume of air that would be trapped within it. A 6" diameter standard weight steel round tube weights 18.97 lbs per foot. The trapped air in it would provide 11.4 lbs of flotation. That amounts to an after floatation mast weight of 7.57 lbs per foot. In other words, even with the floatation from the trapped air, inverted, the submerged mast will still weigh 7.57 lbs more than its floatation.
> 
> I compared that to an aluminum mast section with a similar E*I and Fb*S. That mast weighs 5.9 lbs per foot. In other words, lighter than the weight of the steel mast even with the buoyancy from the trapped air.
> 
> On the other hand, I am not clear in my own mind on how to treat the water within the mast. The aluminum mast would hold approximately 12.3 lbs of water per foot. That would take the combined weight to 18.2 lbs clearly heavier than the buoyed steel mast. But arguably as the mast surfaces, that water can excape as quickly as it comes in.
> 
> What is clear is that with a mast that weighs 18.97 lbs vs a 5.9 lb mast, you will end up either a lot more prone to capsize or with a whole lot more ballast.
> 
> Jeff


We use a 6 inch tube with a wall thickness of 11 gauge, roughly a third the weight of the pipe your calculations are based on. 
Shows how jumping to confusions can give a grossly distorted picture


----------



## Brent Swain

PCP said:


> Yes, that number regards the AVS.
> 
> The ISAF rules for category 0 demand more if the boat is not certified by ISO 12217-2 (RCD):
> 
> Either AVS in ORC Rating System of not less than 120 or a minimum STIX value of 32 and AVS not less than 130 - 0.002*m (Where "m"
> is the mass of the boat in the minimum operating condition as defined by ISO
> 12217-2.)
> 
> But this are minimum standards and the AVS is only a part of the story. Weight and size of the boat has a huge influence on the overall boat stability. If the weight of Brent's boats are a positive factor in their overall stability, the size (that also relates with weight) is on a kind of limit zone when you call it a boat for sailing in high latitudes.
> 
> Let's say that for a 36ft Brent's boat (if not overcharged) has a better stability than most 36ft, specially considering mass production ones (due to his bigger weight).
> 
> Brent has the idea that his boat has a big loading capacity and if someone takes that to the letter and overcharge the boat, the stability can be compromised (on his boat or in any boat). In fact, as Bob had already explained, a good well designed modern light boat with the same weight of Brent's boat (a bigger boat) will not only have a bigger overall stability as it can carry a bigger load.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I see very little storage space above the waterline on most cruising boats. All weight stored below the centre of buoyancy is ballast albeit, less effective than ballast at the bottom of the keel, but never the less, adding to self righting ability in the event of a rollover, as long as it stays in its lockers. All my storage can be locked in, in ways that it wouldn't come out in a rollover . When my boats have been cruising for decades, from Cape Horn to the Aleutians, and several circumnavigations, with zero stability problems, its a bit of a stretch to claim that they will suddenly start to have stability problems, by decree, from those who have absolutely zero experience on any of my boats , and minimal cruising experience, or steel boat cruising experience of any kind.
Silas Crosby has come up about 6 inches since Steve emptied her out , at 1150 lbs per inch immersion! He said the storm he encountered off the Aleutians was far more sever than anything he experienced in the Southern Ocean. Had he had any serious stability problems, he would have definitely experienced them there, if not far sooner.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Still its too bad in a way the concept of bilge keels hasn't been more aggressively pursued in recent years. To my simple understanding if you had twin bulbed keels you might get very reasonable stability without major draft and ability to careen while being upright in a large tidal zone much like the British do.


With twin keels, your stability is roughly the same as with a single keel with same draft, the depth of the ballast being the same. With the keel being the centre around which a boat rolls, having two such centres in a twin keeler drastically reduces rolling. The ability to dry out for maintenance, while drastically increasing the odds of having a cleaner bottom for more of the time, is not the only advantage of twin keels. Many places where I have been anchoring for decades are not useable by boats which cant dry out ,and the deep water alternatives are not all that attractive. That is one of the reasons I have benable to avoid moorage fees. My uncle, who cruises Queensland, said that entire coast is mostly open ocean with only really protected water being river mouths ,available only to boats which can dry out, and have less than 5 ft draft. If you cant dry out and have over 5 ft draft there, you are rolling in an ocean swell. A couple who did a circumnavigation on one of my 36 footers ( Island Breeze) said that is the case not only there, but in many cruising areas w around the world. 
Steve said being able to dry out on Silas Crosby was a huge advantage in the Straits of Magellan enabling him to sleep soundly, while the ingle keeler skippers were awake all night, worrying about dragging anchor. No way two keels hard aground are going to drag .

Such practical considerations , simply don't show up in mathematical calculations and those who only understand that which can be expressed in numbers, don't have a hope in heel of comprehending such practical considerations, especially if, like Bob and Smack, they have no hands on experience ( which makes them a poor source of advice on any practical considerations of yacht design. 
On BD.net anyone supporting my arguments, including several Coast Guard members were automatically accused of being me.
Naturally ,anyone bringing attention to practical maters are automatically, defensively attacked by those who are weak in comprehending practical matters due to lack of experience in actually trying to use what they advocate .Fortunately, they are not the only ones reading my posts, just the loudest , trying maintain their illusion of relevance. I often get private emails asking for info which they didn't want to ask on the forums , for fear of getting ridiculed for not buying the "Just throw money at me and I will solve it." type of response.
I am happy to give them low cost, simple solutions , which would get shouted down, by jeering adolescence, on the forums.


----------



## outbound

Ballast,even depleted uranium, takes up volume. One would think for the same draft and weight of ballast by utilizing twin keels you could get that weight lower improving righting arm. Would someone other than BS confirm this thinking please . Apparently BS missed out on HS physics as well as NA school but this seems apparent to me. Only way single keel could get same CG would be to employ a bulb or increase chord or use winglets.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Out:
> We need Paulo on this. He has posted several new European models that have modern fin and bulb tandem keels. They look quite good. But there is little to gain from having two crude, low aspect ratio BS keels other than the ability to have the boat stand on it's "feet" when the tide goes out.


Picture your anchor rode getting hooked up on the back of those fancy fin and bulb keels . Then imagine the wind coming up in the night, leaving you on a lee shore, beam to wind and sea, with no chance of getting your anchor rode free from the windward keel. That is what happens when your twin keels are designed by numbers crunchers, with no hands on experience . Such practical considerations simply don't show up in the numbers game, and people who don't have hands on experience simply cant grasp the concept of anything not being a mathematical question. It can take a model to design twin keels which wont foul their anchor rodes in such a way. Most "High Tech "twin keels are a disaster waiting to happen in this regard. Warning people of the screwup advice from people like Bob and Smack, who have no steel, or twin keels, or long term cruising experience, is what keeps me posting.


----------



## bobperry

That's a crock!
" I see very little storage space above the centre of buoyancy on most cruising boats"
What a ridiculous statement!

The center of bouyancy of any "normal" sailboat is below the DWL It has to be.
I checked quickly two of my moderate designs. One had a VCB of -.92' and the other a VCB of -.94'. So, let's round it off and say for a 40' to 50' boat the VCB will be about 1' below the DWL. Think about that. There is really not much boat left below that. It's a wedge. How the hell can most of your stowage be below the VCB? Essentially we are talking about the bilge. You can get some tankage in the bilge and that's a good way to lower the VCG. But given the VCG of a "normal" cruising boat is usually around the DWL or slightly above and this bilge weight is not very effective at lowering the VCG. There is just not enough arm to the moment. Fifty gallons of fuel weighs 362 lbs.. Sure it helps lower the VCG but by very much. Generally gear will, propbably not have the weight of fuel so even if you do pack your bilge with stowage material you will still not lower the VCG appreciably.

Brent talks about "lockers". Are these bilge lockers? Again he is wrong. In a normal cruising boat almost all the good stowage volume is above the DWL. That's where the available volume is. Once you get below the DWL there is simply not enough boat left for it to be where you stow the bulk of your gear.

I never suggested BS boats had a stability problem. Don't put me in that camp. Given their weight and general shape I think they would have reasonable LPS. Certainly not the 175 degs that BS claims. That is just plain silly. But I can see a LPS for the BS 36 around 130 degs maybe as high as 135 degs, maybe. (I prefer LPS, limit of positive stability.)

I don't have a problem with the reality of the stability of BS boats. I have a problem with BS's efforts to discuss stability at all. The boats are ok. He's very confused and ignorant on the subject.

If I was going to pick on the stability of a BS 36'er I'd estimate that their initial stability, that is their Rm's through the first 20 degrees is very low. Without lead ballast and steel construction the VCG of the boat will be high to begin with and given their high deadrise shape and moderate beam you have a recipe for an initially tender boat. This is not theory or opinion. This is just physics and naval architecture. This does two things: It makes the boats very tender initially. This makes for a boat that is not much fun to sail as you have to reduce sail quickly when you get some breeze. The boat is always on it's ear. But the good news is that with low initial stability you get a nice comfy ride. You'll roll but you'll roll slowly. This is a good trait foir an offshore boat so long as you don't mind a tender boat. For most of us who are not intendind any long offshore passages the initially stiff boaty will certainly be a faster boat that can carry it's sail well and not require reefing until you have more than 20 TWS. Face it, people like stiff boats.



This photo must rip your heart out Brent or should I call you "Jack"?


----------



## Brent Swain

When Patrick Bray had one of his earlier twin keelers featured in Pacfic Yachtring, one which would have a major problem with anchor rodes fouling them, I phoned him up, and described the problem of anchor rodes fouling one, which resulted in the shape of the keels he now designs. It also allows a much stronger attachement to the hull, via much longer chord
I started out with asymmetrical keels. They didn't sail any better than symetrical ones. 
Deridders on Magic dragon found a huge performance improvement ,when they went from asymmetrical to symmetrical. There is a Ted Brewer design in the harbour here, with asymmetrical twin keels. I'm told she is as slow as a bureaucrat's brain.


----------



## SloopJonB

Dean101 said:


> I'm not sure if I completely understand this concept. This is how I'm visualizing it;
> 
> Up to a point and depending on the location, weight (displacement) increases stability. At a certain point it starts to negatively affect stability. If I load an already heavy displacement boat (such as Brent's) with the additional weight of cruising gear and equipment and assuming I try to keep heavy items low and light items high wherever possible, I may raise the displacement to a point that it negatively affects stability. If I load a light displacement boat of similar hull dimensions with the same weight and load distribution, I am in essence only increasing displacement and therefore stability. It takes more weight to reach the point of negative impact.
> 
> In other words; Assuming two hulls built with the same shape, length, bean, etc, one heavy because it is built from steel and one light and built from cored fiberglass or whatever. The heavier hull has less tolerance to weight because its own weight is closer to the point where the entire boat will just sink, like piling rocks on a flat board until it sinks in a pond. The light boat can accept more weight before reaching that point.
> 
> Is that basically what Bob was talking about?


The only factor which affects how a boat will sink from adding weight (stores, gear etc.) is the Pounds Per Inch Immersion. It is dependent on the waterplane area, not the displacement of the boat. A heavy steel boat and a lightweight cored boat, each with 1500 Lbs per inch immersion will both sink at the same rate from additional weight being added.


----------



## bobperry

Well I had a very nice morning. We launched the Sliver project boat FRANCIS LEE. There are still some odds and ends to take care of including getting our new sails but we are almost ready to go. The cove stripe will go on now. I can't wait to see that.

As you can see we are still floating high and on the designed lines. That's always good. Boats gain weight over time so you like to be light at launch.

My client is very happy. I am happy.


----------



## bobperry

Brent or should I say "Jack" you are a hoot a minute.

Of course asymetrical tandem keels are slow. One keel is always wrong!

"I started out with asymmetrical keels."
You actually built a boat with asym tandem keels? Amazing.


----------



## PCP

Brent Swain said:


> I see very little storage space above the centre of buoyancy on most cruising boats. All weight stored below the centre of buoyancy is ballast albeit, less effective than ballast at the bottom of the keel, but never the less, adding to self righting ability in the event of a rollover, as long as it stays in its lockers. All my storage can be locked in, in ways that it wouldn't come out in a rollover . When my boats have been cruising for decades, from Cape Horn to the Aleutians, and several circumnavigations, with zero stability problems, its a bit of a stretch to claim that they will suddenly start to have stability problems, by decree, from those who have absolutely zero experience on any of my boats , and minimal cruising experience, or steel boat cruising experience of any kind.
> ....


I did not have said that your 36ft had stability problems however you make odd statements regarding the location of the center of buoyancy on modern cruising boats. How can most of the load be above the center of buoyancy?

That happened on old sailing ships, like this XVI century one (for the ones that don't know B is the Center of Buoyancy):



Lots of storage space under the CB. The load was used as ballast.

On a modern one, with the ballast outside the hull the CB is pretty low and the storage space below almost nonexistent:



Do you really think that on modern sailboats *"there is very little storage space above the centre of buoyancy"*?

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> That's a crock!
> " I see very little storage space above the centre of buoyancy on most cruising boats"
> What a ridiculous statement!
> 
> The center of bouyancy of any "normal" sailboat is below the DWL It has to be.
> I checked quickly two of my moderate designs. One had a VCB of -.92' and the other a VCB of -.94'. So, let's round it off and say for a 40' to 50' boat the VCB will be about 1' below the DWL. Think about that. There is really not much boat left below that. It's a wedge. How the hell can most of your stowage be below the VCB? Essentially we are talking about the bilge. You can get some tankage in the bilge and that's a good way to lower the VCG. But given the VCG of a "normal" cruising boat is usually around the DWL or slightly above and this bilge weight is not very effective at lowering the VCG. There is just not enough arm to the moment. Fifty gallons of fuel weighs 362 lbs.. Sure it helps lower the VCG but by very much. Generally gear will, propbably not have the weight of fuel so even if you do pack your bilge with stowage material you will still not lower the VCG appreciably.
> 
> Brent talks about "lockers". Are these bilge lockers? Again he is wrong. In a normal cruising boat almost all the good stowage volume is above the DWL. That's where the available volume is. Once you get below the DWL there is simply not enough boat left for it to be where you stow the bulk of your gear.
> 
> I never suggested BS boats had a stability problem. Don't put me in that camp. Given their weight and general shape I think they would have reasonable LPS. Certainly not the 175 degs that BS claims. That is just plain silly. But I can see a LPS for the BS 36 around 130 degs maybe as high as 135 degs, maybe. (I prefer LPS, limit of positive stability.)
> 
> I don't have a problem with the reality of the stability of BS boats. I have a problem with BS's efforts to discuss stability at all. The boats are ok. He's very confused and ignorant on the subject.
> 
> If I was going to pick on the stability of a BS 36'er I'd estimate that their initial stability, that is their Rm's through the first 20 degrees is very low. Without lead ballast and steel construction the VCG of the boat will be high to begin with and given their high deadrise shape and moderate beam you have a recipe for an initially tender boat. This is not theory or opinion. This is just physics and naval architecture. This does two things: It makes the boats very tender initially. This makes for a boat that is not much fun to sail as you have to reduce sail quickly when you get some breeze. The boat is always on it's ear. But the good news is that with low initial stability you get a nice comfy ride. You'll roll but you'll roll slowly. This is a good trait foir an offshore boat so long as you don't mind a tender boat. For most of us who are not intendind any long offshore passages the initially stiff boaty will certainly be a faster boat that can carry it's sail well and not require reefing until you have more than 20 TWS. Face it, people like stiff boats.
> 
> 
> 
> This photo must rip your heart out Brent or should I call you "Jack"?


 Below the centre of buoyancy where ? Upright, or inverted 180 degrees? Two radically different centres of buoyancy . When we are talking about ultimate stability, it is the inverted 180 degrees one which counts.
Sailing along side plastic boats of similar size, their angle of heel is about the same.
All my boats use lead ballast.
All my boats are designed to be offshore capable. I don't design or build fragile, sheltered water only, nautical fluff.They are designed to fill the needs of 95% of the cruisers I have met, in nearly 40 years of cruising. As for the other 5%, I'm not interested in the micro market. Any old boat will fill their needs
Bob (Jethro) you are welcome to that market.
Most of my storage is below the waterline. Lots of room there ( on heavier boats with deadrise, not on shallow, peanut shell bedpans) Above the waterline, she is wide open space.

My favorite photo is of a whole fleet of my boats in Cabo, belonging to people who couldn't afford to be there in such good steel boats, without my help. Your photo couldn't hold a candle to that one .
Nice looking boat, if you ignore the need for such a huge crew to sail her. That looks downright ugly! I imagine the costs are even uglier!


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> So you're saying Norm Moore, of the Western Australian Legeslative Council, is a Luddite Neanderthal?
> 
> Does he know that?


I'm sure there are many Norm Moores in the world . Typically, Smack takes things out of context any time he can, which deletes his credibility in any of his posts, such as taking a quote from me out of a discussion on religion, and posting it as a comment on steel boats, or leaving out the context in many of his "Quotes."
Don't believe anything he posts.


----------



## bobperry

My reference to "jack" was pertaining to your sock puppet identity on the BD forum. I haved no idea whio "jethro" is.

Ok I get it. You were talking inverted? Right. You talk nonsense.
"Two radically different centres of buoyancy "?
There is one VCB. There can only be one on a monohull. It changes as the boat heels and that's what creates the righting arm. It is always moving if the boat is moving.

" Such a huge crew tio sail it"? 
You mean a husband, a wife, a 12 year old and a 14 year old? You talk nonsense.


----------



## Brent Swain

Dean101 said:


> Sorry Brent, I assumed you would understand what a hypothetical scenario was. My bad. No, I'm not going to believe you, I'm not going to hunt for the information, and no, I'm not going to build a boat. If you want to actually back up anything you have to say, then you post it since you have been quoting it so much. Hoorah for you! You can weld faster than the Moore's. That's saying a lot. But until you quit blowing hot air and actually start posting some things that put substance in your gas, I'll just keep laughing at the funny smell.


Do a search under origamiboats and pick the first one ( Yahoo groups ) .Its all there.
Too lazy to do that? Your problem! So much for your credibility! 
Moore posted the information and the site . He didn't build the boat. Go back and read the post again, as any times as it takes to sink in.( that could take a while)
Another dyslexic , just like Smack. No wonder you guys get along so well!


----------



## bobperry

Brent given your posts and your consistant BS here you are not exactly the King of Credibility.
After being humiliated for years on the BD forum you still have learned the basics of design. 
My favorite quote from the Boat Design forum:
"Your boats are extremely ugly and an insult to steel boats in general - geez, that ugly slit and corner at the bottom:eek"

I have yet to see you post one of your own drawings.


On it's lines, looking good and making the owner happy. Asymeytrical daggerboards. My only cruising cat.


----------



## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> I see very little storage space above the centre of buoyancy on most cruising boats. All weight stored below the centre of buoyancy is ballast .........


where do you think the CB is ? This is why you should learn some basic boat design. It's down in the volumetric center of the immersed part of the vessel.

There's only the lower half of your bilge to store stuff in according to you !

Items that lower the CG (that is well fixed below the CG) increase the righting moment sure but most storage is above the CG.

This is what a weights and moments study shows you clearly. And we juggle that study carefully to get both a decent Dellenbaugh angle and an acceptable Static limit of Postive Stability. it's also useful for calculating the natural roll period using radius of gyration. Amazing what math can give you

Also as I explained earlier you should not include the mast bouyancy, the stats show that masts are lost in a violent inversion, water is so much more viscous than air.
If you want to include mast buoyancy you need to show that the mast is so over engineered it would survive. That's improbable.

Monohull inversion is usually a violent process which has much more to do with the energy in a water jet from a breaking wave than any other factor. Most boats will never experience this even in severe storms if they are well handled. This is why anecdotes don't cut any mustard. 
To say a boat weathered a storm and had no problem is not very sensible design assesment, it's part sea state and wave characteristics and a lottery of what wave is encountered when, and part skill in avoiding or reducing those encounters. Most people will have a storm and never encounter a dangerous breaking wave. But as the boat size goes down the risk increases considerably.

But even if it's uncommon, offshore boats should be designed to lessen the risk since inversion is a very dangerous occurrence. All the deck load, solar panels wind generators, radars, anchoring gear and even often raised sails decrease the stability from the figures given. There is also a wind heeling moment that further decreases stability. Cruisers also often dangerously overload small boats with containers of fuel on deck. And the boats are often well below their design lines.

The given stability figures are a guide to the vessels operators as to just how they handle the boat. 
For example is it safe to heave-to or should I run and have crew on the helm, or try and run under autopilot, can I fit a radome half way up the mast, should I put my anchors and chain in the keel before the storm.........and so on. It's the best most important information you can give any mariner. In the commercial world it's all spelled out in great detail with a stability book, which explains what you can put where within your draft markings ( total D).

To tell people the boat is ultimately stable with silly figures that make the boat and designer look good is criminal IMO.


----------



## Brent Swain

I just had another read thru Smack's long diatribe. Hell hath no confusion like a dyslexic on a forum!
Who gives a rats ass about a bit of paint on welded on stainless handrails ? What Smack prefers is a flimsy , leaky, bolted down teak handrail, like the ones on his Catalina; style over substance. Mine can easily be used to vang the mainsail down and tie things onto , something which would quickly rip out his teak ,decorative ones. It would take me less then 5 minutes with an angle grinder with a buffing wheel on ,to make them as shiny as any , but that is not my priority. Why would it be? I go by cruiser priorities ,not marina queen priorities. Why would a free cruiser give a rats ass about an armchair critic, who knows little about cruising boat priorities? Some one dense enough to believe the blocks in the photos are not as strong as the commercially made ,plastic decorative priority blocks he advocates , someone dense enough to believe that the 3/16tgh shackles on a commercially made blocks are stronger than the 3/8th inch shackle or the1 1/4 inch wide by 3/16th aluminium becket on the one in the photo?
As someone pointed out on another site, Smack would be able to sabotage any test he did on anything, and given his basic dishonesty, (quotes constantly being taken out of context, words added ,left out, etc) it would be inevitable! 
Vendi globe boats have twin rudders huge difference.
The weakness and distortion of Smacks arguments is demonstrated by the way he has to keep harping on about a typo.
He claims that lifelines must be 36 inches high , but his hero, Bob's Passport 47 has 31 inch lifelines. Some of Bob's boats have 24 inch lifelines. No solid top rails like mine , only trip wires. 
Bob claims not to have designed the Reliance 37? That's was the name on Malcolm's drawings . I guess denial is one way to avoid responsibility. It worked, for some people, on the aluminium boat too. Appears to be a pattern forming!

Smack is implying that plastic thru hulls are stronger , unlike the fully welded in sch 40 stainless pipe nipples I use!
Without ever having seen one of my boats, Smack claims that most of the ones he has seen are for sale. Dyslexia again?
I can count on one hand the boats of my design which have come up for sale in the last ten years . Some are constantly being harassed by people wanting to by their brentboats which are not for sale . 
You still haven't explained how you get a ball of kelp or a fishnet off a spade rudder in rough water at sea at night. Mine slide right over them without fouling anything .That is a far safer and thus stronger arrangement for a cruising boat.
Smack claims that a white poly pipe would not be in any worse shape after 36 years in the sun? So much for his credibility!
Scrap stainless for a wind vane would not cost anyone else any more than it did me.
Smack confuses the life expectancy of halyards with that of sheets . Sheets are not halyards. Ask someone who has a clue about sailing, to explain the difference to you ,Smack.
I first hit a Fijian Reef in my cement boat and lost her in conditions which would not have even damaged a steel boat. Viski hit while leaving Suva on her circumnavigation, with minimal damage, mostly lost paint .Wong never hit a Fijian reef . Your dyslexia is acting up again. Smack. 
Wong hit in the Balerics and in Panama .

Wong is a far bigger boat than mine, or a36. I have no idea how he painted her initially . I was in Mexico at the time.
I estimate that over 905% of the boats built to my designs are sailing g within a short time . A Texan from Hicksville Texas claims to know more about the subject, without ever having seen one of my boats, than I do. Who do you believe ? Check out the photos section on the origamiboats site for more info. 
Wont look because you don't want to see the answer? Your problem!
With the aging population and the aging of old boats with perfectly good gear we are awash in sailing gear, in excellent conditions, and the supply is growing daily . Boats are being ground up for concrete reinforcement . Any one can find good deals on gear.
Plans for my 36 are $350 . Smack calculates the cost of plans , book and DVD at $425. Winston did that, and got sailing for around $35,000.
For that, his hero Bob Perry, will sell you a set of plans . Then, instead of a boat in sailing condition, ready to live aboard, you have a pile of paper, advice on how to put together a steel boat ,by someone who has never done it himself , decisions on what is right for a steel cruising boat, from someone who has never cruised extensively in a steel boat, who has stated that he just draws his pictures which ever way his whims take him , not giving a rat's ass how expensive an difficult it is to build.

Smack says, then you have plans from one of the worlds most prominant designers . You forgot one important part. He is no doubt one of the worlds best "PLASTIC" boat designers, without a doubt. He knows next to nothing about steel , having almost zero hands on experience in working with the material, building with ,or maintaining it.
Having the world's best PLASTIC boat designer, with almost zero knowledge about steel, design a steel boat, is like having the worlds best hockey player do your open heart surgery, as he is recognized around the world as being one of the best!
No, Wayne Gretsky ,you are not getting your slapshot anywhere near my ticker!
The ship which hit the Sleavins boat had the bluntest bow I have ever seen on a freighter. Trying to get that to punch a hole in 3/16th steel plate would be like trying to get it to punch a hole in a floating beer can .Is anyone dense enough to believe a floating beer can would be holed by that bow? The inertia in the beer can is simply not enough. Ditto a 36 ft hull with 3/16th plate.
The comment about wooden guns was a reaction to the ludicrous claim that wood is stronger than steel. Again,
Smack left out the context to distort the quote. Another reason to not believe anything he posts . 

Early on in this debate Bob started spiting out Karate terms. Karate is a good metaphor for something being theorized into complete uselessness. I wasted a couple of years on that crap in my early 20's before I switched to boxing, which was far more connected to reality. I remember my trainer, a former world kick boxing champion giving a kid a few lessons for a Taequando tournament . 20 years later I watched a guy with only six weeks boxing training , kick his ass easily.

Wile 30 year old prices are not the same , the gap between steel and fibreglass prices are even wider.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Typically, Smack takes things out of context any time he can, which deletes his credibility in any of his posts, such as taking a quote from me out of a discussion on religion, and posting it as a comment on steel boats, or leaving out the context in many of his "Quotes."
> Don't believe anything he posts.


Now Brent, baby, we've been through this. Every bit of the context is there in the BSYMP thread...

*CHECK IT!*

You just have to click on the little blue arrow by each post, just as I state in the thread. As you say...



Brent Swain said:


> *Its all there.
> Too lazy to do that? Your problem! So much for your credibility! Go back and read the post again, as any times as it takes to sink in.( that could take a while)*


And this..



Brent Swain said:


> We use a 6 inch tube with a wall thickness of 11 gauge, roughly a third the weight of the pipe your calculations are based on.
> Shows how jumping to confusions can give a grossly distorted picture


So your mast will break much more easily in a roll, thereby proving MikeJohns correct. Cool.

Yes, you do show true commitment.



bobperry said:


> "I started out with asymmetrical keels."
> You actually built a boat with asym tandem keels? Amazing.


This is what BS means by years of hands-on experience being superior to actually knowing what you're doing. It's better than science!

St. Bernard Swain, you're dogged determination to continually make a fool of yourself is truly admirable.


----------



## bobperry

Well Brent, there you go making things up again. You have a very short memory. Yes, I did desdign the Reliance. I met one owner several times at the Perry Rendezvous but he took off to go cruising and I have not seen him back. He loved his boat.

We have been through all this before. Brent, put down the bottle! It's killing your memory.

So once again you have your facts all wrong. (What a surprise)
But keep on calling people names. You are very good at that. In fact you can hardly post without calling someone a name.

I'm proud of my work and I post proof that my boats are doing the job and looking good while doing it. You on the other hand are all talk and most of that is just plain wrong. I really don't care about your "solid rail" lifelines. My clients do not want them. And to try to generalize the intellect of my clients is really assinine. But you are good at that too.

By the way, you are going to run out of "rat's asses" soon.
If picking on life line height is the best you can do you are running out of arguments.

You can't do this. You don't have the skills. Never will.

I can post pics of my boats all night but I have to run to the dojo and get beat up tonight. Paul and Lorrie love their boat.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I just had another read thru Smack's long diatribe. Hell hath no confusion like a dyslexic on a forum!
> Who gives a rats ass about a bit of paint on welded on stainless handrails ? Why would a free cruiser give a rats ass about an armchair critic, who knows little about cruising boat priorities? Some one dense enough to believe the blocks in the photos are not as strong as the commercially made ,plastic decorative priority blocks he advocates , someone dense enough to believe that the 3/16tgh shackles on a commercially made blocks are stronger than the 3/8th inch shackle or the1 1/4 inch wide by 3/16th aluminium becket on the one in the photo?
> As someone pointed out on another site, Smack would be able to sabotage any test he did on anything, and given his basic dishonesty, (quotes constantly being taken out of context, words added ,left out, etc) it would be inevitable!
> Vendi globe boats have twin rudders huge difference.
> The weakness and distortion of Smacks arguments is demonstrated by the way he has to keep harping on about a typo.
> He claims that lifelines must be 36 inches high , but his hero, Bob's Passport 47 has 31 inch lifelines. Some of Bob's boats have 24 inch lifelines. No solid top rails like mine , only trip wires.
> Bob claims not to have designed the Reliance 37? That's was the name on Malcolm's drawings . I guess denial is one way to avoid responsibility. It worked, for some people, on the aluminium boat too. Appears to be a pattern forming!
> 
> Smack is implying that plastic thru hulls are stronger , unlike the fully welded in sch 40 stainless pipe nipples I use!
> Without ever having seen one of my boats, Smack claims that most of the ones he has seen are for sale. Dyslexia again?
> I can count on one hand the boats of my design which have come up for sale in the last ten years . Some are constantly being harassed by people wanting to by their brentboats which are not for sale .
> You still haven't explained how you get a ball of kelp or a fishnet off a spade rudder in rough water at sea at night. Mine slide right over them without fouling anything .That is a far safer and thus stronger arrangement for a cruising boat.
> Smack claims that a white poly pipe would not be in any worse shape after 36 years in the sun? So much for his credibility!
> Scrap stainless for a wind vane would not cost anyone else any more than it did me.
> Smack confuses the life expectancy of halyards with that of sheets . Sheets are not halyards. Ask someone who has a clue about sailing, to explain the difference to you ,Smack.
> I first hit a Fijian Reef in my cement boat and lost her in conditions which would not have even damaged a steel boat. Viski hit while leaving Suva on her circumnavigation, with minimal damage, mostly lost paint .Wong never hit a Fijian reef . Your dyslexia is acting up again. Smack.
> Wong hit in the Balerics and in Panama .
> 
> Wong is a far bigger boat than mine, or a36. I have no idea how he painted her initially . I was in Mexico at the time.
> I estimate that over 905% of the boats built to my designs are sailing g within a short time . A Texan from Hicksville Texas claims to know more about the subject, without ever having seen one of my boats, than I do. Who do you believe ? Check out the photos section on the origamiboats site for more info.
> Wont look because you don't want to see the answer? Your problem!
> With the aging population and the aging of old boats with perfectly good gear we are awash in sailing gear, in excellent conditions, and the supply is growing daily . Boats are being ground up for concrete reinforcement . Any one can find good deals on gear


This post of yours is getting longer and longer.

Remember dude - they are all your words. Not mine.

And longer...



Brent Swain said:


> I just had another read thru Smack's long diatribe. Hell hath no confusion like a dyslexic on a forum!
> Who gives a rats ass about a bit of paint on welded on stainless handrails ? Why would a free cruiser give a rats ass about an armchair critic, who knows little about cruising boat priorities? Some one dense enough to believe the blocks in the photos are not as strong as the commercially made ,plastic decorative priority blocks he advocates , someone dense enough to believe that the 3/16tgh shackles on a commercially made blocks are stronger than the 3/8th inch shackle or the1 1/4 inch wide by 3/16th aluminium becket on the one in the photo?
> As someone pointed out on another site, Smack would be able to sabotage any test he did on anything, and given his basic dishonesty, (quotes constantly being taken out of context, words added ,left out, etc) it would be inevitable!
> Vendi globe boats have twin rudders huge difference.
> The weakness and distortion of Smacks arguments is demonstrated by the way he has to keep harping on about a typo.
> He claims that lifelines must be 36 inches high , but his hero, Bob's Passport 47 has 31 inch lifelines. Some of Bob's boats have 24 inch lifelines. No solid top rails like mine , only trip wires.
> Bob claims not to have designed the Reliance 37? That's was the name on Malcolm's drawings . I guess denial is one way to avoid responsibility. It worked, for some people, on the aluminium boat too. Appears to be a pattern forming!
> 
> Smack is implying that plastic thru hulls are stronger , unlike the fully welded in sch 40 stainless pipe nipples I use!
> Without ever having seen one of my boats, Smack claims that most of the ones he has seen are for sale. Dyslexia again?
> I can count on one hand the boats of my design which have come up for sale in the last ten years . Some are constantly being harassed by people wanting to by their brentboats which are not for sale .
> You still haven't explained how you get a ball of kelp or a fishnet off a spade rudder in rough water at sea at night. Mine slide right over them without fouling anything .That is a far safer and thus stronger arrangement for a cruising boat.
> Smack claims that a white poly pipe would not be in any worse shape after 36 years in the sun? So much for his credibility!
> Scrap stainless for a wind vane would not cost anyone else any more than it did me.
> Smack confuses the life expectancy of halyards with that of sheets . Sheets are not halyards. Ask someone who has a clue about sailing, to explain the difference to you ,Smack.
> I first hit a Fijian Reef in my cement boat and lost her in conditions which would not have even damaged a steel boat. Viski hit while leaving Suva on her circumnavigation, with minimal damage, mostly lost paint .Wong never hit a Fijian reef . Your dyslexia is acting up again. Smack.
> Wong hit in the Balerics and in Panama .
> 
> Wong is a far bigger boat than mine, or a36. I have no idea how he painted her initially . I was in Mexico at the time.
> I estimate that over 905% of the boats built to my designs are sailing g within a short time . A Texan from Hicksville Texas claims to know more about the subject, without ever having seen one of my boats, than I do. Who do you believe ? Check out the photos section on the origamiboats site for more info.
> Wont look because you don't want to see the answer? Your problem!
> With the aging population and the aging of old boats with perfectly good gear we are awash in sailing gear, in excellent conditions, and the supply is growing daily . Boats are being ground up for concrete reinforcement . Any one can find good deals on gear.
> 
> Plans for my 36 are $350 . Smack calculates the cost of plans , book and DVD at $425. Winston did that, and got sailing for around $35,000.
> For that, his hero Bob Perry, will sell you a set of plans . Then, instead of a boat in sailing condition, ready to live aboard, you have a pile of paper, advice on how to put together a steel boat ,by someone who has never done it himself , decisions on what is right for a steel cruising boat, from someone who has never cruised extensively in a steel boat, who has stated that he just draws his pictures which ever way his whims take him , not giving a rat's ass how expensive an difficult it is to build.
> 
> Smack says, then you have plans from one of the worlds most prominant designers . You forgot one important part. He is no doubt one of the worlds best "PLASTIC" boat designers, without a doubt. He knows next to nothing about steel , having almost zero hands on experience in working with the material, building with ,or maintaining it.
> Having the world's best PLASTIC boat designer, with almost zero knowledge about steel, design a steel boat, is like having the worlds best hockey player do your open heart surgery, as he is recognized around the world as being one of the best!
> No, Wayne Gretsky ,you are not getting your slapshot anywhere near my ticker!
> The ship which hit the Sleavins boat had the bluntest bow I have ever seen on a freighter. Trying to get that to punch a hole in 3/16th steel plate would be like trying to get it to punch a hole in a floating beer can .Is anyone dense enough to believe a floating beer can would be holed by that bow? The inertia in the beer can is simply not enough. Ditto a 36 ft hull with 3/16th plate.
> The comment about wooden guns was a reaction to the ludicrous claim that wood is stronger than steel. Again,
> Smack left out the context to distort the quote. Another reason to not believe anything he posts .
> 
> Early on in this debate Bob started spiting out Karate terms. Karate is a good metaphor for something being theorized into complete uselessness. I wasted a couple of years on that crap in my early 20's before I switched to boxing, which was far more connected to reality. I remember my trainer, a former world kick boxing champion giving a kid a few lessons for a Taequando tournament . 20 years later I watched a guy with only six weeks boxing training , kick his ass easily.
> 
> Wile 30 year old prices are not the same , the gap between steel and fibreglass prices are even wider.


This quote though is freakin' awesome: *"No, Wayne Gretsky ,you are not getting your slapshot anywhere near my ticker!"*

I'm definitely gonna use that one.


----------



## bobperry

Oh, all right.
I hate to interupt BS's war of words with an actual boat but here'' one I did 20 years ago. It's 70' LOA and about 24,000 lbs. and as sweet and docile a cruising boat as you would ever find. It's also very fast. When it was new and we had her all tuned up we would go to weather at 9.3 knots. Bringing MERIDIAN up to Canada I passed trawler yachts all day.


I don't recall what the lifeline height is but no one has died yet.
I think you will have to admit that this is a very handsome yacht. The new owners love it.
Here it is just after being refitted with Leisure Furl boom system.
My wife and I took the boat out for a weekend. We sailed it just fine, runners and all but we had a hell of a time furling the main onto the boom when we were done. Good memories.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Well Brent, there you go making things up again. You have a very short memory. Yes, I did desdign the Reliance. I met one owner several times at the Perry Rendezvous but he took off to go cruising and I have not seen him back. He loved his boat.


Bob, was it a Reliance 37? If it was, this one's my fault. Brent also said you'd designed an aluminum boat here:



Brent Swain said:


> Last time I left Tonga at the same time as a 28 ft aluminiun Bob Perry design. I took 57 days to BC, he took 99 days. You wouldn't do much better in any heavily loaded 31 footer, with all that the owner owns aboard.


That was what I was thinking about in terms of the fairy boat Brent made up - I just thought the Reliance 37 was yet another as I'd listed.

So, I'll go back and correct that one entry in the BSYMP thread - clarifying that he's lying about the owner's comments - not the boat.

I have no problem making such corrections. It's important that it's accurate.


----------



## Dean101

PCP said:


> No. He certainly can explain better but he was talking about two boats with the same displacement, an heavy one and a light one and that means that the light one to have the same displacement has to be considerably bigger.
> 
> Regarding two boats of the same length and beam, one heavy and other lighter, assuming that both are well designed it does not work the same way.
> 
> The heavier one will have a lot more ballast (assuming that both have similar keels and the same ballast ratio) and if you are correct in saying that the lighter boat can take more weight without sinking it is also true that the same weight will have a bigger influence in raising the boat CG making it more unstable at considerable angles of heel diminishing in much the AVS.
> 
> In short, the load will represent a much bigger proportion regarding the ballast of the lighter boat than to the ballast of the heavier one. If the load is excessive, even if properly stored it will only increase stability at smaller angles of heel making the boat dangerous if by any reason it heels considerably.
> 
> That's why each NA gives for each boat a max load one that will allow it to have a non dangerous AVS.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo





SloopJonB said:


> The only factor which affects how a boat will sink from adding weight (stores, gear etc.) is the Pounds Per Inch Immersion. It is dependent on the waterplane area, not the displacement of the boat. A heavy steel boat and a lightweight cored boat, each with 1500 Lbs per inch immersion will both sink at the same rate from additional weight being added.


Boy, I did one hell of a job screwing that up! Ha Ha! :hammer


----------



## outbound

Still thought due to the weight of steel small (<50') all steel boats will have more difficulty maintaining good stability regardless of measuring tool. Thought that was one of the main reasons for hybrids with steel hulls and aluminum decks/ houses.
Similarly thought any device to decrease weight aloft was justified by improvement in "stiffness" justifying carbon masts and synthetics of standing rigging instead of rod or one by 19.
Can't see how BS boats could sail decently. Can't get a PHRF or other number on BS boats. Wonder how they would do against a mini. Increased wetted surface from wide,long tandem keels. Iron stick. Small sail plan not utilizing any of the sailmaking advance of recent decades. Looking at the shape would think getting to 45 true is a wish. Would love to see a certified sailing polar or any independent measure of performance other than a story. Know there are some good performers in steel. Just think BS boats are not on t.hat list.


----------



## djodenda

Francis Lee looks great, Bob.. 

Congratulations!

Will be at CSR on Saturday for a boat delivery.. Will she still be there?


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## bobperry

David:
Many thanks.

Frankie will be a CSR for at least a couple of weeks. We don't have a real tiller yet. The engine is not hooked up. I' still pissing and moaning about the lack of a cove stripe. There is plenty yet to do.

Yoiu have time.

Dean:
You made what is one of the most common mistakes regarding the physics of loading a boat. Now you can correct the next guy that tells you a heavy boat can take a load better than a light boat. It's all about waterplane. But the caveat is that a light boat will be pressed to find room for all the etra gear while the heavy boat will have more voume for it.

Out:
You are forgetting the BS post where he claims two of his 36'ers sailed through the San Diego racing fleet and left them behind.
All I can figure is that they must have been going the opposite direction. BS boats have to be dog slow. I'm sure BS will come back with some BS for days runs but he can make up any numbers he likes. It's all BS to me.


----------



## smackdaddy

outbound said:


> Can't see how BS boats could sail decently. Can't get a PHRF or other number on BS boats.


I'm sure it's a very strong number. Like in the thousands.


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## jak3b

Its not just steel anymore!! 4 out of 5 wannabe cruisers recomend it, Tastes great and less filling.


----------



## Dean101

Brent Swain said:


> Do a search under origamiboats and pick the first one ( Yahoo groups ) .Its all there.
> Too lazy to do that? Your problem! So much for your credibility!
> Moore posted the information and the site . He didn't build the boat. Go back and read the post again, as any times as it takes to sink in.( that could take a while)
> Another dyslexic , just like Smack. No wonder you guys get along so well!


Ok, Brent, I went ahead and did some of your work for you since you can't seem to grasp the concept of backing up your claims. If it's not to your liking, which I'm sure it won't be, then do your own dirty work like everybody else.

This forum https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/info is moderated by Brent Swain and Alex Christie. Since the last paragraph of the groups description details how to purchase DVD's from Christie and books from Swain, I do not consider this an unbiased resource.

This sight About Us - Origamiboats: The Art of Frameless Steel Boatbuilding is another front for your business. Again, not an unbiased resource.

I found a discussion of steel building methods on the Kaston Marine Design website. And Brent, before you go into a tirade about how they are promoting their own agenda or they are just infidels to your Godhood, the point here is that the write-up is NOT biased and fairly depicts the pro's and con's of each method. That is something you have not done here nor on any of your own websites. And that is why I do not believe in anything you have to say. 
This is copy and pasted from the website Frames First or Plating First...?

_"Within the "plate-first" approach, there are two main divisions: 
•	The "Pre-Cut-Plate" method as described above, and
•	The "Folded-Plate" or so-called Origami method.

With the "Pre-Cut-Plate" approach, the plating is all planned for developability (curvature in one direction only, i.e. not saddle shaped or dome shaped). Here, the plating is all pre-cut, pulled into place - ordinarily over a mould or temporary supports - then stitched together along the seams. This is essentially the "plate-first" method described above.

Taking this pre-cut-plate approach one step farther, we have the "Folded Plate" or Origami method, whereby as many of the hull plate weld seams as possible are eliminated via an ingenious layout of the seams and a shape that allows there to be a number of "pre-joined" areas.

The advantage of the "Folded Plate" method is that with an accurately pre-planned outline that's cut out of plate, the entire hull plating can first be laid out flat - port and starboard - welded where necessary to create the sizes and shapes required, then it's all pulled together and stitched into place. Using this method, once the plate shapes have been determined, the hull plating can be erected in a very short time - often in a matter of days.

Of course this looks impressive...! It actually is impressive! Naturally this concept has captured the imagination of the amateur metal boat building community, thus a possibly significant contingent among potential owner-builders.

With the Folded Plate / Origami method however, one must realize that the designer is unfortunately extremely limited in terms of the possible hull shapes that will actually do this trick. Try it with paper cutouts and you will be immediately convinced. You can achieve a few minor variations and still get shapes that will fold together, but regional subtleties of hull form are just not possible. If a different type of hull form is desired, then quite a lot of trial and error time must be spent - usually by making actual trial cutouts and seeing if they will fit together in an attempt to discover a totally flat plate layout that will provide the intended shape when folded together.

This is not only a severe limitation on the designer - it also restricts the builder who may as a result have only one basic model to offer. In other words, variations to the hull shape are difficult and time consuming to create, so the vessels are limited to being either larger or smaller, fatter or more slender, taller or shorter, having more or less sheer, yet essentially the same in their general shape and appearance.

Further, it must be kept in mind that just as with the "pre-cut-plate" method, the "Folded-Plate" or Origami method is generally only applicable to the hull plating itself, and not to the keel, rudder, deck, superstructure, nor to the equipment, rig, joinery, systems, etc. In other words, though it should be accomplished as efficiently as possible, erecting the plating is only a small part of building the hull, and a very small part of the whole picture.

We therefore observe the following disadvantages of the "Origami" method:
•	Only a limited portion of the total plate surface will be addressed by the Origami method; 
•	The variety of hull shapes that are possible both aesthetically and functionally are quite limited; 
•	There will be quite a lot of fussing around with trial shapes prior to achieving the desired result; 
•	There will still be internal framing... actually quite a lot of it in the form of girders, tank faces and tops, bulkheads, sole flats, deck beams, etc.

As a result of these factors, I have not been tempted to pursue the Origami approach in my design work.
Except for the initial "wow" factor, which holds a certain well deserved appeal among amateur boat builders, I don't see much advantage to it, especially in a professional boat building context. In particular, this is so due to the extreme restriction on the variety of possible hull shapes that can be offered. The result is that the hull shapes become extremely alike, therefore ordinary and uninteresting.

Ask any of the proponents of the Origami method how many truly "different" hull shapes they have been able to design or build using that approach (hulls which are not simply stretched or squished versions of the same thing), and I believe you'll immediately see what I mean.

As an extremely viable alternative, one can just as easily make use of the "pre-cut-plate" approach and have considerably more freedom with subtleties of hull form." _Frames First or Plating First...?

Here's an insightful quote from the website: Sailing Vessel MOM 
In fairness, these folks seemed completely happy with their boat. Nothing wrong with that. And if you can make folks happy with what you have to offer, that's a good thing. I just hope your lack of engineering and design skills don't one day end up costing someone their life because they believed in your sales pitch and didn't trouble to question you on the specifics of your designs.

_"We could not have built this boat without the help of the following people:
Master Boatbuilder Evan Shaler, Carolynne & Winston Bushnell, Kim Bushnell, Brent Swain and all of the folks who let us come onboard during the summer of 2006. Also a special thanks to Cheri & Travis Fogelsong. We thank you all." _Sailing Vessel MOM

I'm assuming that the amateur builder must still require the help of a master boatbuilder and the designer.

This was a very interesting website detailing an entire build of a 65' origami boat. http://www.submarineboat.com/boat_building_log.htm This sight would be a good primer if I was interested in building a boat with this technique.

Some interesting quotes that seem contrary to Brent's marketing rhetoric; 
"_Building a boat is the wrong thing to do if you want to start sailing and traveling. If that is what you want then go buy a used boat. There are lots of great deals out there. Building a boat is for people who want to build a boat that they can then use to sail and travel. For us, it's learning new skills and preparing for new careers."
"You have to pay for the boat's cost; a hull, mast, sails, rigging. but as you are the builder you have lots of negotiating room with the new owner. The new owner can easily quadruple that cost by adding all sorts of yachty crap. So decide how much crap you want. Building bigger does reduce the cost per square foot some, but not greatly. You can build a 36 foot origami boat in one year for $20,000 and you will not need two cranes. We will have 400 to 500 thousand in our boat before it touches the water and we are building a work boat, not a yacht. So you don't have 500,000 laying around? Neither do we. Kay is retied and can no longer work a regular job due to fibromyalgia; aka "lots of pain". And we have never saved money. But building a boat does not happen over night so we have time. We simply downsized everything and devoted every dime to the boat. No vacations, fancy cars, expensive restaurants, bars, cloths, watches, jewelry, green fees, or 401K's. We are focused on nothing other than the boat until I die or the boat is completed. PS: Should I die before the boat is completed, Kay is one amazingly awesome woman, but you will need to get in line as she has several fans that are waiting for me to end up under a large piece of steel. So if money means a lot to you, DO NOT BUILD A BOAT! Just take the cruise ship."_ http://www.submarineboat.com/boat_building_log.htm

It seems that not everyone building to your method, not that you actually invented said method, views it as a means to get out on the water quicker and cheaper.

Brent, if I was to ever consider building a steel origami boat, I would start here; Origami Magic At least they are not ashamed to show pictures and line drawings of their designs. All your name calling and posturing will not change the fact that you apparently cannot answer any question posed to you by others in your field. If what I read about STIX data being required for designs in Europe is true, you just better hope that Canada doesn't start requiring such things because I seriously doubt you could provide it.

And you should look up the word dyslexic. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Disclaimer: I italicized the quotes to differentiate them from my own comments.


----------



## smackdaddy

Well done Deano. It is pretty eye-opening, eh?


----------



## blt2ski

John/Sloop

I knew AVS was the rough angle that you either stop at, or go a full 360. Just did not know what those other numbers related to AVS or if they were the same, but different, or where the most righting movement occured......

Probably like asking the difference between IRC, IMS, and phrf or some such thing......I suppose we could throw IOR in there.........all are ratings, some times one can make sense of the rule, most of the time, it is a total crap shoot!

Marty


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## SloopJonB

Y.M. Tanton has done some origami designs - I wish he would weigh in () here to give some experienced top level design opinions and info on the method. Everything here is either BS BS'ing or others without direct experience in the method trashing his somewhat limited technical knowledge.


----------



## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> Y.M. Tanton has done some origami designs - I wish he would weigh in () here to give some experienced top level design opinions and info on the method. Everything here is either BS BS'ing or others without direct experience in the method trashing his somewhat limited technical knowledge.


+1. It would be awesome to get some actual steel boat design experience in this thread.

Tanton has come on a couple of times. But I certainly can't blame him for not hanging around this quagmire.


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## Dean101

It is eye opening. I think the origami technique is a realistic and viable way for someone to build a boat in their back yard, if that's what they want to do. I also believe that no matter what material and technique is used, there are certain skills that must be learned that will apply to the chosen material/technique. Brent's boats are what they are. They seem to make a few people happy and I'm glad for those folks. It's just funny in a pathetic sort of way that Brent tries to make them out to be the pinnacle of design, grace, performance, beauty, stability, ruggedness, and storm fighting sailing vessels. I feel sorry for him in a way.


----------



## bobperry

Dean:
Great post. Thanks very revealing.
I have been trying to say all along that the origami method means the hull shape is dependant on the technique and not "designed". This post backs my claim up.

I have been friends with Yves-Marie since 1973. I'll see what I can do. But he's a quiet guy and I'm pretty sure he would prefer to distance himself from BS here.


----------



## PCP

Dean101 said:


> *Originally Posted by SloopJonB
> The only factor which affects how a boat will sink from adding weight (stores, gear etc.) is the Pounds Per Inch Immersion. It is dependent on the waterplane area, not the displacement of the boat. A heavy steel boat and a lightweight cored boat, each with 1500 Lbs per inch immersion will both sink at the same rate from additional weight being added.
> *
> 
> Boy, I did one hell of a job screwing that up! Ha Ha! :hammer


Jon is right regarding immersion.

But immersion, regarding sailboats with the same waterplane (lenght and beam) is not the only thing that counts and is not even the limiting factor when a designer establishes a max load. If both boats are well designed, assuming identical keels and ballast ratio, the lighter boat will be more affected in what regards reserve stability and lowered AVS angle (by weight above the CB) becoming dangerous first. As I have said that has to do with the bigger percentage of weight of the load regarding the weight of the boat (the same way ballast needs has to do with the weight of the boat).

For the same reason the heavier boat (heavier hull, deck and mast) to have a similar CG as the lighter one will have to have more ballast (having the same B/D ratio of the lighter boat), the amount of load that it can carry affecting negatively the CG (above the center of Buoyancy) will be bigger than the one on the lighter boat.

The really advantage is nor regarding two boats with the same waterplane but regarding two boats with the same displacement, being one lighter and bigger and the other heavier and smaller. Here, as the boats have the same displacement, assuming identical keels and drafts and B/D ratio, the bigger boat will be able to take a bigger load considering the same negative effects on reserve stability and AVS. He would also comparatively sail better with that load than the heavier boat, with less immersion.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## PCP

Dean101 said:


> ... If what I read about STIX data being required for designs in Europe is true, you just better hope that Canada doesn't start requiring such things because I seriously doubt you could provide it.
> ..


Even if he could not provide it he could ask someone to do it for him. His 36ft boat would pass easily, in what regards stability, what is demanded on the RCD for a class A boat.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## outbound

So the take away is unless one is very skilled and has access to complex hydraulic shaping machinery best hull shapes will be radius chine or combinations of radius and hard chine allowing for conical development of the appropriate areas ( bow) and least parasitic drag.
For long term service life and cosmetics ( no hungry horse or easy dents) thicker plate with "floating" framing may be preferred. As there is more area of plate then framing depending on frameless construction has potential issues of ending up a heavier boat but not stronger.


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## SloopJonB

*Building a boat is for people who want to build a boat *

That is the most accurate and succinct description of it I've ever seen. It should be required reading for anyone tempted to build or even do a major restoration of a boat.


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## bobperry

My pal Boomer took a series of photos of Frankie from accross the ship canal this morning. Do I sound obsessed with my new creation? I coud be.

Look Ma! No lifelines!


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## jak3b

"My favorite photo is of a whole fleet of my boats in Cabo, belonging to people who couldn't afford to be there in such good steel boats, without my help. Your photo couldn't hold a candle to that one ."

OK, where is it?.........Ah ic I am sure there is a very good reason why you would mention it with out ACTUALLY posting it.I guess its one of those Winston heard a guys cousin tell Larry Pardey that Moitessier secretly lusted after your 36'er.Come on Brent, We all know your 'the man' around here.Let your brilliance shine and silence all these detractors and misinformation agents.We are waiting!.There will be much moaning and nashing of teeth I am sure.


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## Faster

Love that Sepia print, Bob.. pretty, pretty boat.


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## bobperry

Thanks Faster. I'm eagerly awaiting the application of the cove stripe.


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## djodenda

bobperry said:


> My pal Boomer took a series of photos of Frankie from accross the ship canal this morning. Do I sound obsessed with my new creation? I coud be.
> 
> Look Ma! No lifelines!


Not sure how we are going to get out of there on Saturday since you seem to have the Travelift blocked off.

We'll find a way, and promise to be nice


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## bobperry

A couple more from my buddy Boomer.





Denda:
Just don't bump anything!


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## kimbottles

We are well away from the travel lift, photo makes it look much closer than it is......


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## djodenda

kimbottles said:


> We are well away from the travel lift, photo makes it look much closer than it is......


Well.. OK, Kim... We won't hurt her...

Even though the work on my friend's 1D35 is probably late because they would rather work on your boat. 

They are giving us a free coffee mug.. Figure they owe you a couple


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## kimbottles

Dragons don't have lifelines, Square Metre boats don't have lifelines, 6 meters don't have lifelines, 8 meters, 12 meters, ACC, etc,etc.

If conditions are such where lifelines were needed we will be wearing our harness.


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## kimbottles

djodenda said:


> Well.. OK, Kim... We won't hurt her...
> 
> Even though the work on my friend's 1D35 is probably late because they would rather work on your boat.
> 
> They are giving us a free coffee mug.. Figure they owe you a couple


I am going to ask for my mug when I am next there!


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> A couple more from my buddy Boomer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Denda:
> Just don't bump anything!


Very decorative . Not very functional. Bob, it aint like you to waste so much boat on cockpit.


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## kimbottles

Depends on what function you are seeking. 
Of course it is not your kind of boat Mr. Swain, but do not fear, she was not designed for you. 
She was designed for me and that is the cockpit I wanted.

The world would be a boring place if all vessels were the same.


----------



## Brent Swain

Smack mentions spending tens of thousands of dollars on tools to build a steel boat. Does anyone see tens of thousands of dollars worth of tools in Alex's video, or on the origami boats site? Is Smack referring to the other Texan, who said you need a brake press, which can only bend straight lines, to build a sailboat hull, which has few if any straight lines? Do you know any more Texan jokes, Smack?
Lets see. Three comealongs at under $20 each. A 225 amp buzzbox welder, the cheapest welder available. A cutting torch. A sledgehammer. Three 3/4 inch pipe clamps . A hydraulic jack. A couple of crowbars. Several C clamps, and vise grips . A chipping hammer. A ball peen hammer . A 25 ft tape measure. An angle grinder and discs. A big square and a small adjustable one. If Smack cant buy that for under tens of thousands of dollars, who is he to be giving financial advice to boat builders?
When reading these posts, one should constantly bear in mind that neither Smack, nor Bob nor Dean have any experience in building, cruising long term in, nor maintaining long term, any steel boat, yet they claim to know more about the subject than someone who has been doing exactly that for decades. They are amateurs, in every sense of the word, on this subject. Or, you could ask anyone who has built a steel boat, how many tens of thousands of dollars they have spent on tools , and base your assessment of Smacks credibility on their answer.
Smack said Moitessier went crazy? What is his definition of crazy? Bernard chose sailing on to Tahiti, instead of returning to European suburbia, and the rat race . According to Smack, anyone who would choose Tahiti over suburbia is CRAZY! All cruisers who leave suburbia to sail to Tahiti are CRAZY according to him. Do cruisers and wannbe cruisers on this site agree with him? They can judge his credibility on the answer to that question. Is he the kind of guy they should be getting their cruising advice from?
When I hung out with Moitessier in Tahiti in 78, he was anything but crazy, and was, as usual, extremely logical and practical. The only craziness I saw was his concern about food addatives ,while sucking on a cigarette. It was the cigarettes which killed him. Was he alone in that craziness? I don't think so.


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## djodenda

Some room for improvement on the tiller, Kim... 

Maybe something that looks like the scroll of a cello...

Naw.. that's been done....


----------



## kimbottles

djodenda said:


> Some room for improvement on the tiller, Kim...
> 
> Maybe something that looks like the scroll of a cello...
> 
> Naw.. that's been done....


You don't like the 2x4's we used to get her to the dock?


----------



## djodenda

kimbottles said:


> You don't like the 2x4's we used to get her to the dock?


Yeah.. Maybe they would be OK if you painted them or something.

I think a hiking stick made out of a 2X2 would fit nicely. I'll bring one by and you can see


----------



## Brent Swain

Dean101 said:


> Ok, Brent, I went ahead and did some of your work for you since you can't seem to grasp the concept of backing up your claims. If it's not to your liking, which I'm sure it won't be, then do your own dirty work like everybody else.
> 
> This forum https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/info is moderated by Brent Swain and Alex Christie. Since the last paragraph of the groups description details how to purchase DVD's from Christie and books from Swain, I do not consider this an unbiased resource.
> 
> This sight About Us - Origamiboats: The Art of Frameless Steel Boatbuilding is another front for your business. Again, not an unbiased resource.
> 
> I found a discussion of steel building methods on the Kaston Marine Design website. And Brent, before you go into a tirade about how they are promoting their own agenda or they are just infidels to your Godhood, the point here is that the write-up is NOT biased and fairly depicts the pro's and con's of each method. That is something you have not done here nor on any of your own websites. And that is why I do not believe in anything you have to say.
> This is copy and pasted from the website Frames First or Plating First...?
> 
> _"Within the "plate-first" approach, there are two main divisions:
> •	The "Pre-Cut-Plate" method as described above, and
> •	The "Folded-Plate" or so-called Origami method.
> 
> With the "Pre-Cut-Plate" approach, the plating is all planned for developability (curvature in one direction only, i.e. not saddle shaped or dome shaped). Here, the plating is all pre-cut, pulled into place - ordinarily over a mould or temporary supports - then stitched together along the seams. This is essentially the "plate-first" method described above.
> 
> Taking this pre-cut-plate approach one step farther, we have the "Folded Plate" or Origami method, whereby as many of the hull plate weld seams as possible are eliminated via an ingenious layout of the seams and a shape that allows there to be a number of "pre-joined" areas.
> 
> The advantage of the "Folded Plate" method is that with an accurately pre-planned outline that's cut out of plate, the entire hull plating can first be laid out flat - port and starboard - welded where necessary to create the sizes and shapes required, then it's all pulled together and stitched into place. Using this method, once the plate shapes have been determined, the hull plating can be erected in a very short time - often in a matter of days.
> 
> Of course this looks impressive...! It actually is impressive! Naturally this concept has captured the imagination of the amateur metal boat building community, thus a possibly significant contingent among potential owner-builders.
> 
> With the Folded Plate / Origami method however, one must realize that the designer is unfortunately extremely limited in terms of the possible hull shapes that will actually do this trick. Try it with paper cutouts and you will be immediately convinced. You can achieve a few minor variations and still get shapes that will fold together, but regional subtleties of hull form are just not possible. If a different type of hull form is desired, then quite a lot of trial and error time must be spent - usually by making actual trial cutouts and seeing if they will fit together in an attempt to discover a totally flat plate layout that will provide the intended shape when folded together.
> 
> This is not only a severe limitation on the designer - it also restricts the builder who may as a result have only one basic model to offer. In other words, variations to the hull shape are difficult and time consuming to create, so the vessels are limited to being either larger or smaller, fatter or more slender, taller or shorter, having more or less sheer, yet essentially the same in their general shape and appearance.
> 
> Further, it must be kept in mind that just as with the "pre-cut-plate" method, the "Folded-Plate" or Origami method is generally only applicable to the hull plating itself, and not to the keel, rudder, deck, superstructure, nor to the equipment, rig, joinery, systems, etc. In other words, though it should be accomplished as efficiently as possible, erecting the plating is only a small part of building the hull, and a very small part of the whole picture.
> 
> We therefore observe the following disadvantages of the "Origami" method:
> •	Only a limited portion of the total plate surface will be addressed by the Origami method;
> •	The variety of hull shapes that are possible both aesthetically and functionally are quite limited;
> •	There will be quite a lot of fussing around with trial shapes prior to achieving the desired result;
> •	There will still be internal framing... actually quite a lot of it in the form of girders, tank faces and tops, bulkheads, sole flats, deck beams, etc.
> 
> As a result of these factors, I have not been tempted to pursue the Origami approach in my design work.
> Except for the initial "wow" factor, which holds a certain well deserved appeal among amateur boat builders, I don't see much advantage to it, especially in a professional boat building context. In particular, this is so due to the extreme restriction on the variety of possible hull shapes that can be offered. The result is that the hull shapes become extremely alike, therefore ordinary and uninteresting.
> 
> Ask any of the proponents of the Origami method how many truly "different" hull shapes they have been able to design or build using that approach (hulls which are not simply stretched or squished versions of the same thing), and I believe you'll immediately see what I mean.
> 
> As an extremely viable alternative, one can just as easily make use of the "pre-cut-plate" approach and have considerably more freedom with subtleties of hull form." _Frames First or Plating First...?
> 
> Here's an insightful quote from the website: Sailing Vessel MOM
> In fairness, these folks seemed completely happy with their boat. Nothing wrong with that. And if you can make folks happy with what you have to offer, that's a good thing. I just hope your lack of engineering and design skills don't one day end up costing someone their life because they believed in your sales pitch and didn't trouble to question you on the specifics of your designs.
> 
> _"We could not have built this boat without the help of the following people:
> Master Boatbuilder Evan Shaler, Carolynne & Winston Bushnell, Kim Bushnell, Brent Swain and all of the folks who let us come onboard during the summer of 2006. Also a special thanks to Cheri & Travis Fogelsong. We thank you all." _Sailing Vessel MOM
> 
> I'm assuming that the amateur builder must still require the help of a master boatbuilder and the designer.
> 
> This was a very interesting website detailing an entire build of a 65' origami boat. http://www.submarineboat.com/boat_building_log.htm This sight would be a good primer if I was interested in building a boat with this technique.
> 
> Some interesting quotes that seem contrary to Brent's marketing rhetoric;
> "_Building a boat is the wrong thing to do if you want to start sailing and traveling. If that is what you want then go buy a used boat. There are lots of great deals out there. Building a boat is for people who want to build a boat that they can then use to sail and travel. For us, it's learning new skills and preparing for new careers."
> "You have to pay for the boat's cost; a hull, mast, sails, rigging. but as you are the builder you have lots of negotiating room with the new owner. The new owner can easily quadruple that cost by adding all sorts of yachty crap. So decide how much crap you want. Building bigger does reduce the cost per square foot some, but not greatly. You can build a 36 foot origami boat in one year for $20,000 and you will not need two cranes. We will have 400 to 500 thousand in our boat before it touches the water and we are building a work boat, not a yacht. So you don't have 500,000 laying around? Neither do we. Kay is retied and can no longer work a regular job due to fibromyalgia; aka "lots of pain". And we have never saved money. But building a boat does not happen over night so we have time. We simply downsized everything and devoted every dime to the boat. No vacations, fancy cars, expensive restaurants, bars, cloths, watches, jewelry, green fees, or 401K's. We are focused on nothing other than the boat until I die or the boat is completed. PS: Should I die before the boat is completed, Kay is one amazingly awesome woman, but you will need to get in line as she has several fans that are waiting for me to end up under a large piece of steel. So if money means a lot to you, DO NOT BUILD A BOAT! Just take the cruise ship."_ http://www.submarineboat.com/boat_building_log.htm
> 
> It seems that not everyone building to your method, not that you actually invented said method, views it as a means to get out on the water quicker and cheaper.
> 
> Brent, if I was to ever consider building a steel origami boat, I would start here; Origami Magic At least they are not ashamed to show pictures and line drawings of their designs. All your name calling and posturing will not change the fact that you apparently cannot answer any question posed to you by others in your field. If what I read about STIX data being required for designs in Europe is true, you just better hope that Canada doesn't start requiring such things because I seriously doubt you could provide it.
> 
> And you should look up the word dyslexic. I don't think it means what you think it means.
> 
> Disclaimer: I italicized the quotes to differentiate them from my own comments.


This makes my point exactly. Kasten claims the method CANT be used for keel ,skeg, rudder, decks, cabin, etc. while I on the origami site, in my book and in Alex's video, you can see the keels, rudder, cabin, decks, wheelhouse etc. , being built using origami methods, something we have been doing since hull number one, back in 1979 . Anyone reading this site can confirm that, by checking the photos on the origami boats site. Kasten has been told this, and has full access to the origami boats site, yet continues to spread the bull, and disinformation. So how can anyone believe anything else he has to say on the subject? He stubbornly refuses to educate himself on the subject, while spreading bull, not the kind of guy one should rely on for any steel boat building information.
Sure you cant have pointless subtleties on an origami boat, but when they sail as well as any other cruising boat, who cares. Why would you spend ten times the time for subtleties which don't affect performance in any way? That is the kind of thinking which pointlessly turns a boat into a ten year project. The kind of thinking you advocate, while being critical of the predictable results!

The couple quoted are not building one of my 36 footers .Had they been, they would have gone cruising long ago. When you start the first one off, and huge, you begin the leaning process on things which were worked out decades ago on my 36 footer. There is no comparison between a 75 footer first off , and a 36 footer which has been built so many times, for over 30 years 
The weight of the 1/8th inch plate on my decks cabinsides and cabin top are exactly the same as the weight of the same thickness on a Dix design, or a Whithotz, or a Roberts, or a Tanton, or a Colvin or a Van de Stadt, etc. etc. They don't have a secret source of lighter per sq ft steel! The deadrise on my boats is similar to many of their designs . Bob, yes you can shallow the deadrise , but on a 36 footer, that would require you to raise the freeboard to get headroom, and what effect would that have on stability ?Would it reduce it more than any gains you would get by a shallower deadrise?
Probably.
Multi chine hulls are far less stable than a single chine hull, especially if they don't have a lot of topside flare.


----------



## outbound

Sure is a pretty boat- Bon Chance Kim


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> neither Smack, nor Bob nor Dean...


Sweet! Hey Deano, you made the list brotha!



Brent Swain said:


> Smack mentions spending tens of thousands of dollars on tools to build a steel boat. Does anyone see tens of thousands of dollars worth of tools in Alex's video, or on the origami boats site?
> 
> Three comealongs at under $20 each.
> A 225 amp buzzbox welder, the cheapest welder available.
> A cutting torch.
> A sledgehammer.
> Three 3/4 inch pipe clamps .
> A hydraulic jack.
> A couple of crowbars.
> Several C clamps.
> Vise grips.
> A chipping hammer.
> A ball peen hammer.
> A 25 ft tape measure.
> An angle grinder and discs.
> A big square and a small adjustable one.
> 
> If Smack cant buy that for under tens of thousands of dollars, who is he to be giving financial advice to boat builders?


Wow! So that's all you need to build a BS Yacht? I guess I was wrong.

I'm really eager to see how you do all the systems work (electrical, plumbing, propulsion), the interior finish work, the sandblasting and painting, the lead smelting, the rigging, the ports and hatches, the installation of all the deck hardware, etc. - with a ballpeen hammer and C clamps.



Brent Swain said:


> According to Smack, anyone who would choose Tahiti over suburbia is CRAZY!


Ah, no. According to me, anyone who would choose hermiting in a cold, stinky, steel boat in BC over Tahiti is CRAZY!


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Well Brent, there you go making things up again. You have a very short memory. Yes, I did desdign the Reliance. I met one owner several times at the Perry Rendezvous but he took off to go cruising and I have not seen him back. He loved his boat.
> 
> We have been through all this before. Brent, put down the bottle! It's killing your memory.
> 
> So once again you have your facts all wrong. (What a surprise)
> But keep on calling people names. You are very good at that. In fact you can hardly post without calling someone a name.
> 
> I'm proud of my work and I post proof that my boats are doing the job and looking good while doing it. You on the other hand are all talk and most of that is just plain wrong. I really don't care about your "solid rail" lifelines. My clients do not want them. And to try to generalize the intellect of my clients is really assinine. But you are good at that too.
> 
> By the way, you are going to run out of "rat's asses" soon.
> If picking on life line height is the best you can do you are running out of arguments.
> 
> You can't do this. You don't have the skills. Never will.
> 
> I can post pics of my boats all night but I have to run to the dojo and get beat up tonight. Paul and Lorrie love their boat.


According to Smack, you are lying when you claim to have designed the Reliance. So where does that leave his credibility?
Malcolm gave up on the Reliance many years ago, and started building Spencers, which he told me are far better boats, with far better directional stability. That was over 13 years ago.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Brent given your posts and your consistant BS here you are not exactly the King of Credibility.
> After being humiliated for years on the BD forum you still have learned the basics of design.
> My favorite quote from the Boat Design forum:
> "Your boats are extremely ugly and an insult to steel boats in general - geez, that ugly slit and corner at the bottom:eek"
> 
> I have yet to see you post one of your own drawings.
> 
> 
> On it's lines, looking good and making the owner happy. Asymeytrical daggerboards. My only cruising cat.


Bob you have designed some extremely beautiful boats, and some extremely ugly ones as well. The Tayana 37 looks so much like a dumpy bathtub, that I have heard that one off Nanaimo was constantly being mistaken for one of the bath tubs in the race. Her stern looks like a fat lady's ass, not the definition of attractive.


----------



## bobperry

Dendo:
I'll have you know those are marine grade 2 by 4's on the tiller.

Brent:
See, there you go again making silly comments about a boat that you know nothing about and a process you know nothing about. This is not about you. My client, Kim, is getting exactly what he wanted. Not want you want. He really doesn't care about what you want. And, if I may speak for him, if he sees what you want, believe me, he's not going to want it. Your boats would scare Kim. Kim has owned a long list of beautiful yachts including the amazing K. AAge Nielsen design TIOGA . Your boats I am confident are not what he imagines in terms of aesthetics. So you may want to reconsider the custom design process and what it is aimed at accomplishing before you offer up any more suggestions. There is nothing I see in your work, as noble as it is, that has any implications on my work.


----------



## bobperry

"Bob you have designed some extremely beautiful boats, and some extremely ugly ones as well. The Tayana 37 looks so much like a dumpy bathtub, that I have heard that one off Nanaimo was constantly being mistaken for one of the bath tubs in the race. Her stern looks like a fat lady's ass, not the definition of attractive. "

Brent, when you say stuff like this you come off as a very small man. Is this the best defence you can offer? It is meaningless drivel.

Post some drawings BS. Show us what you can do.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Bob you have designed some extremely beautiful boats, and some extremely ugly ones as well. The Tayana 37 looks so much like a dumpy bathtub, that I have heard that one off Nanaimo was constantly being mistaken for one of the bath tubs in the race. Her stern looks like a fat lady's ass, not the definition of attractive.


I really do love this guy. He is seriously funny.

http://****ishouldntsayoutloud.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/not_so_sweet_kids_09-11.jpg


----------



## jak3b

Come on Brent post that pic you are so proud of, The Fleets of your designs at Cabo,I am dying to see it, show these guys you are not just a pathetic, nasty little gobshyte.


----------



## djodenda

Hey... I just discovered a cool link:

Airloom - Home










She's a very well sailed Baba 40 that is well known in racing circles in the PNW.

A stout boat, and quite fast.. I was aboard briefly last fall.. couldn't believe how thick the shrouds were.

Nice people.

Nice boat.

One of Bob's


----------



## Dean101

I know, right!?! And I didn't even have to actually claim I know more about building steel boats than Brent! He must have great confidence that I do though, because his imagination is the only place you will find that I actually claimed that. Thanks Brent! And thanks for actually admitting there is a learning curve to this. I seriously doubt that any of your amateur clients have the skills to quickly and efficiently build a boat it's taken 30 years to perfect. 

I do actually have a suggestion for you and I'm being serious about this. The next time you build one of your boats, take pictures and keep a log of timeframes, expenditures, and the use of outside skilled labor. With that sort of data available, it will entice more people to buy your books and DVD's. It will also give you some credibility on forums such as this. More so than your lovely attitude does.


----------



## Jeff_H

Brent Swain said:


> This makes my point exactly. Kasten claims the method CANT be used for keel ,skeg, rudder, decks, cabin, etc. while I on the origami site, in my book and in Alex's video, you can see the keels, rudder, cabin, decks, wheelhouse etc. , being built using origami methods, something we have been doing since hull number one, back in 1979 . Anyone reading this site can confirm that, by checking the photos on the origami boats site. Kasten has been told this, and has full access to the origami boats site, yet continues to spread the bull, and disinformation. So how can anyone believe anything else he has to say on the subject? He stubbornly refuses to educate himself on the subject, while spreading bull, not the kind of guy one should rely on for any steel boat building information.


Brent,

I think your disagreement with Kasten is largely semantics. As I was reading Kasten's piece, Kasten seems to be defining folded plate construction differently than Origami in that he saw Origami as implying that the entire hull shape was formed from plates that were partially attached and that the hull gained its form solely from the shape of the edges of gores. Using his definitions, when I look at the photos of your boats, it appears that the keels are constructed using what he terms folded plate construction in which the plates are shaped around the keel bottom and tank bulheads rather than as would be the case in his def of Origami where the shapes are formed solely by the shape of the edges of the plate.



Brent Swain said:


> The weight of the 1/8th inch plate on my decks cabinsides and cabin top are exactly the same as the weight of the same thickness on a Dix design, or a Whithotz, or a Roberts, or a Tanton, or a Colvin or a Van de Stadt, etc. etc. They don't have a secret source of lighter per sq ft steel!


I cannot speak for the other designers, but at least the designs of Charlie Wittholz that I worked on for Charlie did not have steel decks. Charlie preferred wood decks and houses since they were lighter in weight. He would detail the stanchions so that they were hung on the bulkwarks to avoid leaks. But otherwise his boats were designed with glass over wood decks. Charlie's topsides were generally 1/8" plate on boats the size of yours but his boats had a lot more framing.

Thank you for the correction on your mast material. I did not realize that you were not using structural sections for your masts. To set the record straight from my comments yesterday, 6" diameter x 11 ga. ERW tubing varies in weight from manufacturer to manufacturer but generally weighs around 7.5 to 8.2 lbs per foot. The trapped air would provide 11.4 lbs of buoyancy per foot so if the mast did not fail there would be 3-4 lbs of buoyancy per foot. Just for comparason a 7" dia x 1/8" wall aluminum tube has similar I*E and S*F properties and would weigh around 3.25 Lbs, but would require a 1" larger diameter and thicker walls to equal the 6" dia x 11ga steel.

Jeff


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
That is indeed AIRLOOM the tall rigged Baba 40 that has done very well racing in the PNW. I also did one Vic-Maui. I did three tall rigged Baba 40's. I added 6' to "I". The boat came alive with the extra rig. It was like shaking a reef out. The Baba 40 is a beautifully balanced boat that loves a breeze. I also find it quite attractive.

Compared to this BS has zero to offer. Apparently. Maybe more angry words.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Now Brent, baby, we've been through this. Every bit of the context is there in the BSYMP thread...
> 
> *CHECK IT!*
> 
> You just have to click on the little blue arrow by each post, just as I state in the thread. As you say...
> 
> And this..
> 
> So your mast will break much more easily in a roll, thereby proving MikeJohns correct. Cool.
> 
> Yes, you do show true commitment.
> 
> This is what BS means by years of hands-on experience being superior to actually knowing what you're doing. It's better than science!
> 
> St. Bernard Swain, you're dogged determination to continually make a fool of yourself is truly admirable.


So Smack, how is your model T running .According to your theory, Mr Ford should have got it perfect with the first one off the assembly line. Any improvements since then, all qualify as mistakes and guessing on the part of the auto industry , unforgiveable!
You remind me more and more of the foreman in the late 60s who told me "Invention is dead , Everything there is to invent has already been invented." That could have been a direct quote form Smack Daddy's book of philosophy.


----------



## Brent Swain

One more benefit of a steel boat is its fireproof, and any fire can be starved of oxygen by simply sealing it airtight. Then you still have something useable ,not burned to the waterline.


----------



## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> My pal Boomer took a series of photos of Frankie from accross the ship canal this morning. Do I sound obsessed with my new creation? I coud be.
> 
> Look Ma! No lifelines!


She really is lovely. She has very interesting proportions. Very purposeful and elegant.... reminiscent of the best of the past, yet clearly modern as well.

As I look at the pictures, it is hard to get a sense of her scale until you see the boats behind her. The length of the cockpit and the proportions of the house and the portlights give a sense of of a smaller boat at first squint. Its only when you look at the apparent low freeboard and short overhangs that she looks like a boat as long as she is.

A true master piece.

Jeff


----------



## Dean101

Brent Swain said:


> So Smack, how is your model T running .According to your theory, Mr Ford should have got it perfect with the first one off the assembly line. Any improvements since then, all qualify as mistakes and guessing on the part of the auto industry , unforgiveable!
> You remind me more and more of the foreman in the late 60s who told me "Invention is dead , Everything there is to invent has already been invented." That could have been a direct quote form Smack Daddy's book of philosophy.


Hey!!! I thought you said a few posts back that I reminded you of that foreman!!!!


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Dendo:
> I'll have you know those are marine grade 2 by 4's on the tiller.
> 
> Brent:
> See, there you go again making silly comments about a boat that you know nothing about and a process you know nothing about. This is not about you. My client, Kim, is getting exactly what he wanted. Not want you want. He really doesn't care about what you want. And, if I may speak for him, if he sees what you want, believe me, he's not going to want it. Your boats would scare Kim. Kim has owned a long list of beautiful yachts including the amazing K. AAge Nielsen design TIOGA . Your boats I am confident are not what he imagines in terms of aesthetics. So you may want to reconsider the custom design process and what it is aimed at accomplishing before you offer up any more suggestions. There is nothing I see in your work, as noble as it is, that has any implications on my work.


Yes Bob we have entirely different markets . I prefer practical long term cruisers and your prefer status symbols. I have no interest in your market and you have neither the interest nor the cruising and building experience in mine 
Some steel boat builders consider me competition. My clients cant afford them, but the more steel boats there are out there, the greater he demand for them there will be, which benefits them and their customers, who simply want to buy a steel boat. 
Many going to BD .net were attacked for simply asking a simple question, such is the nature of the yahoos who dominate that site. Innovation and thinking outside the box is definitely taboo there. It has rendered itself useless for anyone seeking low cost or innovative solutions, as people who have tried it have frequently told me.
Who gives advice on steel boats there? Wiley who, building his first ever steel boat, has become an instant expert on al steel boat maters, Troy a cowboy with no steel boat experience ( I haven't built any steel boats, but I have welded up a lot of fenceposts so I know all about steel boats.) Fitter welder Mike, who's only cruising experience is trying to live aboard a plastic uninsulated boat in Horseshoe Bay in winter, and said because that was not comfortable all comfortable long term liveaboard is impossible . Not the sharpest tools in the shed. Then there was the one person who had any steel boat building experience besides me, who claimed that al boats need frames then admitted to building Dix designs frameless.
He also on that site said that all torch cuts should be ground, then on another site, said a good cut needs no grinding. 
Quite a collection of door men !


----------



## bobperry

Dean: Facts are maleable for some.

Jeff:
We'll have to talk some time. You know how it is being a designer. Even if it appears to be a masterpiece to some people there are always small details that bother me. I hate the "mother of all handgrabs" on the companionway hatch. I wish Kim had used the CF anchor rollers I designed but they were very expensive. I still wonder if I should have dug my heels in for the teal toe rail. (I think not) But I have learned to live with the fact that I will never be satisfied. But the good news is there is always the next design. That's what drives me. One day I'm gonna get this right. I was going to type, "or die trying" but I'm 67 now so I had better not be a smart ass.

We'll have a glass of wine when you come out to stay at the shack. We can discuss all sorts of deep design stuff. Or we can just drink wine and play guitars. I'm good either way.


----------



## Brent Swain

Dean101 said:


> Hey!!! I thought you said a few posts back that I reminded you of that foreman!!!!


Both of you do!

Einstien said insanity is defined as repeating the same experiment over and over again, expecting a different result. We wont deal with the cruisers problems of time and money, without doing things differently.


----------



## bobperry

Brent;
I have more "long term cruisers" in Tayana 37's than you have in your entire fleet. They built 600 of them. Talk to George Day editor of Blue Water Sailing if you want verificiation of the number of ty37's cruising the world. If you want to add in the rest of my cruising boats we can but the TY 37 covers it pretty well.

But go ahead, make up your reality. Post results of single handed offshore races won by BS boats. Post a list of circumnavigations by BS boats. (I lost track years ago). Post something real for a change.

You are all angry words BS. If you want us to take you seriously as a "yacht designer" show us your designs. That seems such a reasonable request. Just quit your drivel and post some design work. Designers design. BS'ers BS.

"uite a collection of door men ! "
There you go again Brent. You just can't stop yourself from calling people names.

If you can't say anything intelligent just start calling people names. That always works.


----------



## jak3b

Wait till he posts that pic of the fleet at Cabo!. (not holding my breath)


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Innovation and thinking outside the box is definitely taboo there.


That's actually encouraged here. You should try it.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Brent;
> I have more "long term cruisers" in Tayana 37's than you have in your entire fleet. They built 600 of them. Talk to George Day editor of Blue Water Sailing if you want verificiation of the number of ty37's cruising the world. If you want to add in the rest of my cruising boats we can but the TY 37 covers it pretty well.
> 
> But go ahead, make up your reality. Post results of single handed offshore races won by BS boats. Post a list of circumnavigations by BS boats. (I lost track years ago). Post something real for a change.
> 
> You are all angry words BS. If you want us to take you seriously as a "yacht designer" show us your designs. That seems such a reasonable request. Just quit your drivel and post some design work. Designers design. BS'ers BS.
> 
> "uite a collection of door men ! "
> There you go again Brent. You just can't stop yourself from calling people names.
> 
> If you can't say anything intelligent just start calling people names. That always works.


Its all there on the origamiboats site


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Its all there on the origamiboats site


If that's all there is. Then there's really next to nothing. I've looked. I'm actually a member.


----------



## djodenda

bobperry said:


> Jeff:
> We'll have to talk some time. You know how it is being a designer. Even if it appears to be a masterpiece to some people there are always small details that bother me. I hate the "mother of all handgrabs" on the companionway hatch. I wish Kim had used the CF anchor rollers I designed but they were very expensive. I still wonder if I should have dug my heels in for the teal toe rail. (I think not) But I have learned to live with the fact that I will never be satisfied. But the good news is there is always the next design. That's what drives me. One day I'm gonna get this right. I was going to type, "or die trying" but I'm 67 now so I had better not be a smart ass.
> 
> We'll have a glass of wine when you come out to stay at the shack. We can discuss all sorts of deep design stuff. Or we can just drink wine and play guitars. I'm good either way.


OK Bob... I "get" what you are saying... Makes me wonder... You've sold "Perrywinkle"... Other than the Peapod, do you think you will ever design a boat for yourself? I wonder if you would be too difficult of a client..

Jeff: If you come by, I'll give you a ride to Bob's place.. Likely to be a long spinnaker run, one way or another...


----------



## bobperry

There's a box? I missed the memo.

I've got a million boxes.
I've got a Baba 3o box
A Flying tigert 10m box
A Lafitte 66 box
An ICON box
A Passport 40 box
A Valiant 40 box
A Nordic 40 box
A cheoy Lee 47 box
A Valiant 47 box
A Seamster 46 box
A Perry 47 box
A Nordic 44 box
A cheoy Lee 44 box
A Norseman 447 box
A Lafitte 44 box
A Perrywinkle 8'er box

I could go on but it's almost dinner time,

I dare anyone to try to put me into a box. I haven't even drug out my powerboat designs yet.

I'm a yacht designer. I'm not limited by some geometry method. I'm not interested in that box. Read it and weep Brent. Designers design . BS'ers BS.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> A couple more from my buddy Boomer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Denda:
> Just don't bump anything!


I think everyone reading this should get used to that view of FL.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
I would hope so. Time will tell. I remain confident that this one will change things.

Sailors will look and wonder, "What was that?"

That is the powerful FRANCIS LEE.

Stir fry for dinner. Veggies and tofu. My wife's request. Yuch!
I may have to duck out for a cheeseburger afer she goes to sleep.


----------



## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> I really do love this guy. He is seriously funny.
> 
> http://****ishouldntsayoutloud.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/not_so_sweet_kids_09-11.jpg


Here Smack - you can borrow my can.


----------



## SloopJonB

Quick - choose one for your next boat.


----------



## Classic30

SloopJonB said:


> I think everyone reading this should get used to that view of FL.


What, a hazy skyline and a derelict waterfront? Is that really the best you can offer?? Surely there are better views than that.  

Maybe Bob could post some from FRANCIS LEE under sail...


----------



## kimbottles

Classic30 said:


> What, a hazy skyline and a derelict waterfront? Is that really the best you can offer?? Surely there are better views than that.
> 
> Maybe Bob could post some from FRANCIS LEE under sail...


Maybe we should get some sails made for her first......


----------



## tdw

Classic30 said:


> What, a hazy skyline and a derelict waterfront? Is that really the best you can offer?? Surely there are better views than that.
> 
> Maybe Bob could post some from FRANCIS LEE under sail...


Francis Lee Hurreshoff ?

Sorry.

BP ... she is certainly a most beautiful thing.


----------



## kimbottles

tdw said:


> Francis Lee Hurreshoff ?
> 
> Sorry.
> 
> BP ... she is certainly a most beautiful thing.


That yacht designer was named Lewis Francis Herreshoff, son of Nathanael Greene Herreshoff.

But this vessel is named after my late Father; Francis Lee McKee Bottles. That seemed a bit long so I settled on "Francis Lee".

(But I do admit as a long time admirer of LFH's designs I did notice the similarity.)


----------



## poopdeckpappy

SloopJonB said:


> Quick - choose one for your next boat.


At first it was a slam dunk but then I saw the duct tape on the bow of the one boat to the left and thought, can we upgrade to say, like, Rescue Tape ?


----------



## Dean101

smackdaddy said:


> If that's all there is. Then there's really next to nothing. I've looked. I'm actually a member.


So that's why the owner refuses to quote his own bull... And he'll probably sue you if you quote without his permission.


----------



## djodenda

Kim:

The name is another reason she's a special boat.

What was your dad like?


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
No, I would not design a boat for myself. Too expensive. There are too many good boats already out there reasonably priced. There are a bunch I'd like to own. If I am going to spend money on a hobby I have my eye on a new $10,000 cartridge for my turntable. I think I would get more enjoyment out of that year round than a boat.


----------



## outbound

Not if you lived on the boat and she had a good sound system. I was lucky. The broker I dealt with is a bit of a audiophile (not in your league though). We spec'd a nice set of speakers for the saloon and cockpit with a powerful sub woofer. Although I like analogue in the house digital is quite sufficient for these old ears these days. Sitting on the boat with Muddy or Mozart depending on mood, good coffee with a shot in it, and a pleasing sunset in a empty anchorage is as close to heaven as I'll ever get.
Given how small a cruising boat is and how acoustically neutral it's surprising how good a sound you can get inside. No anchoring speakers to floor joists or putting up tile or finding the focal point to put your chair. Outside you don't care if the birds are swooping and the surround pleasant.


----------



## kimbottles

djodenda said:


> Kim:
> 
> The name is another reason she's a special boat.
> 
> What was your dad like?


Quiet, intelligent, big reader, commercial fisherman before WWII, family man, liked sailing, taught me and my three brothers to sail. Good all around guy.


----------



## bobperry

Out:
Fact is, on the PERRYWINKLE I had a portable Sony ghetto blaster and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Boats are tough places to get good sound.

Some of you were interested in numbers and drawings for the big, red, alloy boat, MARLIN.



Again, I would ask you to recognize the difference between what I do and BS does. I have yet to see BS post any design drawings. I am very happy to post mine. But there is some weird irony here. These two drawings were done by my helper at the time, Ben Souquet, a talented French designer who began as an intern in my office many years before these drawings were done.
Initials,,,,,,BS.
****ski!


----------



## outbound

Bob- you're lucky if at 67 you have full spectrum hearing. I worked for Kip Cohen/Bill Graham and have had too much loud rock and roll as a kid. Find if there is good bass and mid range don't need great tweeters to be happy. Inside of the boat's saloon is pretty much all wood and with speakers in the corners my old ears are pretty happy.


----------



## bobperry

Out:
I played in rock bands for 10 years. I stood four feet in front of stacked Fender Dual Showman amps and later stacked SVT Ampegs, two cabinets 4 12's in each. But for some reason my hearing is still acute. Thick head?

Right now, in the office I am listening to Arabella Steinbacher play Prokofiev's Sonata for Violin Solo in D major.

Or is it,,,,a Haydn London Symphony?
My hearings just fine.


----------



## Faster

bobperry said:


> Again, I would ask you to recognize the difference between what I do and BS does.


I think it's safe to say that this goes without saying... No one could look at the two bodies of work and NOT see that.



bobperry said:


> Out:
> I played in rock bands for 10 years. I stood four feet in front of stacked Fender Dual Showman amps and later stacked SVT Ampegs, two cabinets 4 12's in each. But for some reason my hearing is still acute. Thick head?


Me too.. including a near yearlong full time stint (back when bands played 6 nights/week). We always set up the same, me to the drummer's right, who was on a riser. That put many of the cymbals to my left, and I definitely have hearing loss in that ear... Funny, religiously wore ear protection at work around turbines and steam plants, but never when playing. Funny or stupid


----------



## bobperry

Faster:
We were young and indestructable. I proved that in the '60's.
I stood to the drummer's right when I played lead and to his left when I switched to bass. Maybe my hearing loss is balanced.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Out:
> Fact is, on the PERRYWINKLE I had a portable Sony ghetto blaster and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Boats are tough places to get good sound.
> 
> Some of you were interested in numbers and drawings for the big, red, alloy boat, MARLIN.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I would ask you to recognize the difference between what I do and BS does. I have yet to see BS post any design drawings. I am very happy to post mine. But there is some weird irony here. These two drawings were done by my helper at the time, Ben Souquet, a talented French designer who began as an intern in my office many years before these drawings were done.
> Initials,,,,,,BS.
> ****ski!


Just for comparison...










Other examples here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=bre...AAw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1602&bih=766#imgdii=_


----------



## bobperry

That drawing is the one that Tad Roberts "doctored" when he was working on the BS thread over on the Boat Design forum. The scratchy crude pencil lines are Brent's. The clean computer lines are Tad's.

I used to draw by hand with a scratchy pencil. I'd also use a pen for added contrast. I can't imagine having a "designer" having a good eye for boats without the ability to accurately lay out his design ideas on paper. And if you are going to lay out your ideas in detail, at least do it with some pride.


Here is my very first grp design. I had Ted Brewer help with with the construction details. They sold 100 of these 54'ers. I can remember when the yard sent me a photo of the finished boat. It was the first time I had seen the boat. I was amazed and very happy. Looking at this old drawing now it seems a bit raw and rugged in areas. I'm a little embarrassed to post it, but hell, I was 28 years old.


----------



## smackdaddy

To give everyone a sense of the _actual_ time and effort involved for these boats, over on Brent's site a guy has posted photos of his progress on a 36' he's building. He started it in 2010. As of 12/5/13, he apparently has a bow roller, anchor winch, and rudder to show for it.

It's great looking work. He's doing a good job. But I'd sure love to hear from him how Brent's claimed timeline matches up with his reality.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> That drawing is the one that Tad Roberts "doctored" when he was working on the BS thread over on the Boat Design forum. The scratchy crude pencil lines are Brent's. The clean computer lines are Tad's.
> 
> I used to draw by hand with a scratchy pencil. I'd also use a pen for added contrast. I can't imagine having a "designer" having a good eye for boats without the ability to accurately lay out his design ideas on paper. And if you are going to lay out your ideas in detail, at least do it with some pride.
> 
> 
> Here is my very first grp design. I had Ted Brewer help with with the construction details. They sold 100 of these 54'ers. I can remember when the yard sent me a photo of the finished boat. It was the first time I had seen the boat. I was amazed and very happy. Looking at this old drawing now it seems a bit raw and rugged in areas. I'm a little embarrassed to post it, but hell, I was 28 years old.


The vast majority of people would be plenty happy to be able to draw as well as you could when you were a kid Bob.

I'd like to see a computer "enhancement" that would subtly degrade those clinically perfect computer drawings so they looked hand drawn.

The difference between art and machine made. One thing can be both but they are never the same.


----------



## bobperry

Hand of Man Jon. You can't beat it.

Kind of like how every concert piannist get a different sound out of his axe. Hand of man. Kind of like why digital drum tracks always sound,,,digital.


----------



## outbound

Be curious to see BS interiors. The interior of the red boat looks very livable with enough berths aft to be viable in a seaway, a workable galley and good hidey holes for a family while cruising. Might have done a double with a bundle board in one of the aft staterooms but otherwise I'll take it the way it is. Sure looks nice. Seems a shame so many boats interiors only work well at anchor. Folks seem to like the "open floor plan" at the boat show then realize it doesn't work when they take off. Hard to get that open feeling. Still harder to not to need to always need to move something to get to something on a small boat. Interiors are just as big an art as hull/appendage design.


----------



## bobperry

What I have found over the years is that when you present a builder with a well produced drawing, professional in it's layout, well drafted and well detailed, they are far more likely to follow the drawing. I take pride in my detail drawings.


----------



## outbound

I'd take unsmoked cigarette filters and cut them in half putting 1/2 in each ear when at a pot board or in front of a "wall of sound". Hearing is still pretty good. Thought it was very good from what I could hear hunting but then had a formal hearing test. High frequencies are planning out slightly which is pretty inevitable as we age. Really impressed by the muffs you get for shooting at the range. Amazing technology. You can whisper and hear each other but it still gets rid of the blast.


----------



## SloopJonB

At one time my hearing was so good I could literally hear one of those "ultrasonic" dog whistles - really. They sounded sort of like wind in trees.

Now the 12KHZ filter on my amp makes no difference to the sound.


----------



## Dean101

Here's a question that is probably a little more in line with the thread subject. How badly does a steel boat affect compass deviation compared to other hull materials? And does a steel hull affect autopilot systems that have those compass computers?


----------



## outbound

Might want to talk with Ritchie Compass. Years ago had that question. They told me a bunch of stuff about installation, swinging it etc. Had a pamphlet but got lost it in a move.


----------



## NCC320

smackdaddy said:


> Just for comparison...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other examples here:
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=bre...AAw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1602&bih=766#imgdii=_


Brent,

I suspect most of your design drawings were done before computer aided design was available (or in common use). Much, if not most, design work today is done on the computer. Also, while your drawings get the idea across, they are not works of art by any means. I suspect you never had any formal training in drafting and mechanical drawing. And even if you did, some people are good at it and some are not so good. You earn money by selling your designs to others to build a boat. Just something to think about. Today there are many computer aided design programs available (some expensive and complicated, but some not so expensive and complicated). If you were to take your designs and redraw them with a computer, it would give the drawings a more professional look. Still would be the same boats, good or bad, depending on one's viewpoint. But if someone is looking to buy an off the shelf stock design, good presentation and appearance of the drawings would seem to be important (to me at least). So the question is wouldn't you sell more of your designs if the associated drawings were updated to computer drawing.?

Along the same line, the hulls seem to come out a certain way on each of your designs. That is probably limited by the Origami approach. To me at least, the deck houses on your boats look a little strange vs. other boats. But that would seem to be a really easy thing to change, to give a more modern, typical deckhouse. In my eye, that would make your designs more appealing. Maybe lots of people like the original designs, so they could still be offered. i.e. give the potential buyer, a little more choice.

I understand your arguments for the high solid life lines, but somehow they seem to detract from your designs. If they were solid, but a little lower, wouldn't that improve the overall appearance of the boats, while still retaining most of the reasoning for that approach.

I know it's none of my business, but I just thought I would make the suggestions.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> What I have found over the years is that when you present a builder with a well produced drawing, professional in it's layout, well drafted and well detailed, they are far more likely to follow the drawing. I take pride in my detail drawings.


And this drawing is for a PROFESSIONAL BUILDER! Can you imagine being a complete newb to boat building and trying to figure out what you're supposed to do from BS' drawing and a DVD?


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## bobperry

I am not capable of designing for unskilled home builders. Dudley Dix is very good at that.


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## outbound

an DD has some very good designs in steel from what I remember. Your friend Mr. Tanton has some fast steel boats as well. The old steel star design was interesting.


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## tdw

kimbottles said:


> That yacht designer was named Lewis Francis Herreshoff, son of Nathanael Greene Herreshoff.
> 
> But this vessel is named after my late Father; Francis Lee McKee Bottles. That seemed a bit long so I settled on "Francis Lee".
> 
> (But I do admit as a long time admirer of LFH's designs I did notice the similarity.)


Hi Kim,
I didn't realise that about the name. I confess I'd simply presumed all along that she was named after Herreschoff. My post was meant to be something of a pun but alas that one died a sudden death. Such it is. 
Cheers to you and your absolute stunner of a boat.


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## bobperry

If I had a Sliver I'd name mine SPIKE.


----------



## MikeJohns

Dean101 said:


> Here's a question that is probably a little more in line with the thread subject. How badly does a steel boat affect compass deviation compared to other hull materials? And does a steel hull affect autopilot systems that have those compass computers?


No different to ships. To reduce deviation there are two large soft iron masses placed close to the compass (Kelvin's balls) so they dominate the compass effect and other effects are then relatively insignificant.

Electronic autopilots don't need it and most have an auto adjust procedure you follow which can be as simple as motoring around a circle.


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## bobperry

Kelvin's balls? I know that feeling.


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## Dean101

MikeJohns said:


> No different to ships. To reduce deviation there are two large soft iron masses placed close to the compass (Kelvin's balls) so they dominate the compass effect and other effects are then relatively insignificant.
> 
> Electronic autopilots don't need it and most have an auto adjust procedure you follow which can be as simple as motoring around a circle.


That makes sense. I knew that most compasses have compensators but I really didn't know how effective they actually are. I thought an all metal hull would be much more difficult to compensate for.


----------



## bobperry

I received permission from Kim to post the lines of FRANCIS LEE. I thought some of you might be interested. The lines plan is the heart and soul of the design. I would generally not publish the lines but seeing that you have seen so many photos that the hull shape is hardly secret anymore and the fact that I am not afraid of designers who want to copy me, I'm afraid of the ones who don't want to copy me. Here they are. By the way, if you cannot produce a set of finished and faired hull lines you are not a yacht designer.


A little explanation:
This is revision No.8 of a series of preliminary hull lines. There were far more iterations than eight as Kim and I bounced back and forth trying different approaches to the lines. But eight of them were close enough to get a designation. From this Rev. 8 we went to 3D lines with the help of Jim Franken. Jim spotted a flat spot in the stern and I asked him to fix that. Other than that the final 3D lines is what you see here in 2D.

The deadrise you see in this hull was not there when I started. I favored an arc type midsection going tangent at centerline. That's a fast shape. But when Kim chose to go with the red cedar strip planking I knew we would have a timber keelson, i.e. backbone and the depth of the backbone would cut into my transverse floor timbers. Not good. So I added the deadrise to give the boat more bilge depth to accomodate structure we would need.

I think you can see here how I pushed volume into the end of the boat to keep the Cp up. I did not want whimpy, anemic ends that just went along for the ride. I wanted ends that would do work. The rest is just out of my head and the product of a lifetime of sailing, studying and designing a tremendous variety of sailing boats.


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## sandy stone

Awesome. Did you calculate polars for it?


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## bobperry

Here's the scene as I see it:
It's a party. There is a string quartet playing some Haydn and Mozart pieces. Nice music and everyone is enjoying themselves. Over in the corner by himself sits Beethoven. He looks really bored. He smells funny, bad. He waits until the quartet finishes a pice then walks over, whips out four scoes from his waistcoat and throws them at the 1st violin. The 1st violin looks them over and distributes them to the other musicians. The room is filled with chatter and noise. Glasses clink. The score is Beethoven's Opus 135. The quartet starts in and plays through the first movement. The room begins to go quiet. By the time they finish the fourth movement the room is almost silent. Then they are done, exhausted and the room is truly silent. And it stays silent.

Not sure why I wrote that other than to kind of say, I post those hull lines and the room goes pretty much silent.
Except for Sandy clapping wildly of to one side.

But Beethoven was profoundly deaf by then so he didn't really notice. Not really.


----------



## bobperry

Sandy:
Yes we have polars. I won't post them. They would just bring on a flood of questions. Most people are not used to reading tabular VPP data. If you Pm me we can discuss it.


----------



## sandy stone

Not trying to pry, or cause controversy. Just looking at that hull, imagining a high-aspect sailplan, & wondering what a boat like that would do closehauled. Also tacking angles. Wow.


----------



## Brent Swain

Looks like nice hull balance . She should have a lot of directional stability, but most narrow boats do. High prismatic coefficient should give her a lot of top end speed, in strong winds.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Out:
> I played in rock bands for 10 years. I stood four feet in front of stacked Fender Dual Showman amps and later stacked SVT Ampegs, two cabinets 4 12's in each. But for some reason my hearing is still acute. Thick head?
> 
> Right now, in the office I am listening to Arabella Steinbacher play Prokofiev's Sonata for Violin Solo in D major.
> 
> Or is it,,,,a Haydn London Symphony?
> 
> My hearings just fine.


My father lead telephone lines to firing artillery in ww2 and had excellent hearing til his late 80s. Now it is not so good. The doctor said it was because of artillery damage in his early 20s, by artillery fire. He said the fine hairs in the ears get damaged. You may find the same by your late 80s .
He hasn't lost a political debate since he stopped wearing his hearing aid.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> Quick - choose one for your next boat.


Silas Crosby is obviously the best looking one ,and the soundest, toughest, and most proven seaworthy of the lot.


----------



## bobperry

Thanks Brent:
We lay our souls bare we we publish our work.

I'm curious how Frankie will respond when pushed hard in a breeze. I know helm balance will be fine. I have polars but they are just numbers and they fall down in accuracy at the top end when hullspeed is crested.

So, back to my story:
The fat lady, with way too much make up and weird hair, goes over to Ludwig, pokes him rudely in the shoulder and yells, "I didn't like that!" Beethoven reads her lips, looks her straight in her rhumy eyes and says, "I didn't write it for you."


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> My reference to "jack" was pertaining to your sock puppet identity on the BD forum. I haved no idea whio "jethro" is.
> 
> Ok I get it. You were talking inverted? Right. You talk nonsense.
> "Two radically different centres of buoyancy "?
> There is one VCB. There can only be one on a monohull. It changes as the boat heels and that's what creates the righting arm. It is always moving if the boat is moving.
> 
> " Such a huge crew tio sail it"?
> You mean a husband, a wife, a 12 year old and a 14 year old? You talk nonsense.


Notice Bob states that " it changes as the boat heels and that 's what creates the righting arm. It is always moving when the boat is moving." 
When I said the same thing on BD.net, I was called a liar. No one else claimed it to be accurate .
Yes Bob I meant inverted. Calculate the VCB when the boat is inverted, and see how far it is from all that weight under the bunks .
I rowed over to one of the 3-36 ft brentboats surrounding me. I measured the freeboard, then stepped aboard and measured it again. With my 220 lbs on the rail, it heeled 1 inch. Now try that on any of the 36 footers around you ,and see how far 220 lbs makes it heel, for a comparison . You can even try it on one of my 36 footers . Shinola is in the new marina in Campbell River , behind the super store. Autumn Wine is in Refuge Cove , desolation Sound. Silas Crosby is at the govt dock in Comox, Three more are anchored west of all the marinas in Comox, and one is anchored off the breakwater. One more is in Courtenay slough. One more in Deep Bay. One is moored behind Muddy waters pub in Nanaimo. Two more are at Newcastle Marina in Nanaimo and one more is at the Yacht club there. Three more are in Genoa Bay, and one is in Esquimault. One is in Fulford harbour, several more are in Oak Bay.
Three more are in the Caribean , two finishing circumnavigations. One is in Brazil, two or three are in Hawaii on Oahu. One is in NE Olympia. One is in Seattle . One is on the northeast coast of New Zealand.

Oh yes. I asked the owner of that immaculate Passport 47 how much he paid for her. He said $137K. How does that compare to her initial price tag? How much did he lose by owning her? Some of my 36 footers have sold for nearly that much. Shinola sold for $95 K, to an owner who is very happy with the deal he got.


----------



## outbound

Brent don't you realize your last post speaks only to your extremely parochial view of the world . Counter examples
Take the small run of outbound 46 s. In any given year there are more than one on each ocean of the world save the southern sea. There are only 53 of them.
Or just one design of Bob's the V 40 or the T 37 The same would be true. Here with hundreds of boats I suspect your boats wake to see multiples of just those two designs of Bob's in any harbor they frequent.
Or the HR 43. Or now the Boreals. 
We are not talking about a cluster of boats near you and a few outliers. But rather frail plastic boats and an aluminum high latitude boat braving shipping containers, Japanese debris ,what ever in safety and comfort.
As been said before post data not fishing stories.
BTW - these boats are husband and wife boats sailed by average folks not gung-ho racers or iron men.


----------



## bobperry

Brent:

Funny how you are always and I mean always revising your math after you have been caught speaking nonsense. "Oh yes, I meant inverted." You have no clue. Why do you even get into techical discussions? It must be very comforting to live in a world where reality plays such a minor role. I think they call it "the bliss of the ignorant". Brent you are the poster child. You celebrate your own stupidty. You even promote your own stupidity. News flash! We get it. You are stupid.


$37,000 for a Passport 47. I'm afraid you are going to have to provide proof for that ridiculous claim. You are a liar.

Once again, why be the angry little, defensive man? There is zero nobility in that. But you continue to do it like you are addicted to that role.

On the bright side I'm doing rack of lamb tonight with Brussel sprouts, Hubbard squash with butter and paprika and,,,,ok I haven't figured that out yet. I do like to cook.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Brent don't you realize your last post speaks only to your extremely parochial view of the world . Counter examples
> Take the small run of outbound 46 s. In any given year there are more than one on each ocean of the world save the southern sea. There are only 53 of them.
> Or just one design of Bob's the V 40 or the T 37 The same would be true. Here with hundreds of boats I suspect your boats wake to see multiples of just those two designs of Bob's in any harbor they frequent.
> Or the HR 43. Or now the Boreals.
> We are not talking about a cluster of boats near you and a few outliers. But rather frail plastic boats and an aluminum high latitude boat braving shipping containers, Japanese debris ,what ever in safety and comfort.
> As been said before post data not fishing stories.
> BTW - these boats are husband and wife boats sailed by average folks not gung-ho racers or iron men.


Which makes my point. I design for the needs of 95% of the cruisers I meet while cruising, not a few masochistic gung ho iron men. Bob can deal with them. I have no interest in their needs. 
Perry designs are extremely rare here in BC. I know of only three.
The data is in the heeling test I mentioned, far more accurate than speculation. I gave the location of just a sample of my boats, so people can do their own testing and comparisons ,and not take anyone else's word for it , or be milked $150 an hour for Briex , AIG , or Bernie Madeoff style accounting.


----------



## bobperry

"Perry designs are extremely rare here in BC. I know of only three."
You are not looking very hard. But if your eyesite is as good as your drafting I suspect you won't see many. And we have seen your drafting.

"not a few masochistic gung ho iron men. "
See, you can't get through a post without calling names. They should have taiuht you better when you were young. Name calling is the last resort of any argument.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Brent:
> 
> Funny how you are always and I mean always revising your math after you have been caught speaking nonsense. "Oh yes, I meant inverted." You have no clue. Why do you even get into techical discussions? It must be very comforting to live in a world where reality plays such a minor role. I think they call it "the bliss of the ignorant". Brent you are the poster child. You celebrate your own stupidty. You even promote your own stupidity. News flash! We get it. You are stupid.
> 
> $37,000 for a Passport 47. I'm afraid you are going to have to provide proof for that ridiculous claim. You are a liar.
> 
> Once again, why be the angry little, defensive man? There is zero nobility in that. But you continue to do it like you are addicted to that role.
> 
> On the bright side I'm doing rack of lamb tonight with Brussel sprouts, Hubbard squash with butter and paprika and,,,,ok I haven't figured that out yet. I do like to cook.


Most of the discussions I get into are technical .You don't consider stability, in the real world of experience, rather than speculation, a technical discussion? You don't consider explaining the structural principles of a hull and decks to be a technical discussion?
What do you consider a "technical" discussion? Your baby pictures ? Your menu? Pictures of your pool? Your self promotion, with decorative pictures which have nothing to do with the subject, metal boats?


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> "Perry designs are extremely rare here in BC. I know of only three."
> You are not looking very hard. But if your eyesite is as good as your drafting I suspect you won't see many. And we have seen your drafting.
> 
> "not a few masochistic gung ho iron men. "
> See, you can't get through a post without calling names. They should have taiuht you better when you were young. Name calling is the last resort of any argument.


Gung ho iron men was Outbound's choice of words. I have a right to respond and it takes repeating to respond.
What Bob is advocating is one set of rules for some, and a different set for others ( yacht club style elitism?)


----------



## bobperry

You are stooping low again Brent. Stick to the subject. Personal attacks just make you look like a little man. You are very ignorant in the area of stability. This has been brought to light over and over again on this and the BD sites.

I can't talk stability or naval architecture with you. You are ignorant.

Self promotion? You bet your dumb ass. I love promoting my work. My work is beautiful and very well received and has been for years. You might have a hard time inventing numbers to disprove that. I am living proof.

"What Bob is advocating is one set of rules for some, and a different set for others ( yacht club style elitism?) "
You are getting desperate again.


----------



## djodenda

bobperry said:


> Here's the scene as I see it:
> It's a party. There is a string quartet playing some Haydn and Mozart pieces. Nice music and everyone is enjoying themselves. Over in the corner by himself sits Beethoven. He looks really bored. He smells funny, bad. He waits until the quartet finishes a pice then walks over, whips out four scoes from his waistcoat and throws them at the 1st violin. The 1st violin looks them over and distributes them to the other musicians. The room is filled with chatter and noise. Glasses clink. The score is Beethoven's Opus 135. The quartet starts in and plays through the first movement. The room begins to go quiet. By the time they finish the fourth movement the room is almost silent. Then they are done, exhausted and the room is truly silent. And it stays silent.
> 
> Not sure why I wrote that other than to kind of say, I post those hull lines and the room goes pretty much silent.
> Except for Sandy clapping wildly of to one side.
> 
> But Beethoven was profoundly deaf by then so he didn't really notice. Not really.


I spent quite a bit of time at the CSR shed a few weeks ago, looking at Francis Lee... I paced back and forth... tilted my head, and just tried to observe the hull shape, and understand it based on the principals in your book..

Now I have the lines to look at as well.. Thank you. This helps me a lot


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## bobperry

No problem Denda.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Oh yes. I asked the owner of that immaculate Passport 47 how much he paid for her. He said $37K. How does that compare to her initial price tag? How much did he lose by owning her? Some of my 36 footers have sold for nearly that much. Shinola sold for $95 K, to an owner who is very happy with the deal he got.


Brent - you are so obviously full of crap it's pathetic. Here, have a look at the listings for a few Passport 47s:

Passport Yacht for Sale Brokerage - Bluenose Yacht Sales, Charter RI | Bluenose Yacht Sales

There are SEVEN of them on that one page alone. *The lowest price is $319K* with this little rejoinder:



> $40,000.00 Dramatic Reduction in Price!
> 
> The owner say "This Boat Must be Sold Now!"
> 
> Now is your opportunity to acquire this gorgeous Passport 47 at a very deep discount. This is an unbelievable situation and one that seldom happens. The realistic owner wants this boat to be sold now. You can now afford to own this lightly used vessel in beautiful condition.


Either your friend thinks you're an idiot - or you can't hear worth a damn - or he's lying to you to get you out of his hair and watch you make a fool of yourself on SN.

EVERY BS boat we've pulled up for sale is either not selling (*Silas Crosby*, *BS Cutter in Mex*) or has been dropping like a stone in price (*Xenos*, *Dove II*, *BS Pilot House in Mex*) - *because no one wants them*. Silas Crosby has the highest asking price of all these at $73K. And that ain't gonna happen. The only high sale prices we've EVER seen come from your mouth - along with all the other crap you spew.

If you can't prove it...it's BS.


----------



## SloopJonB

When I read BS's post about the $37K I initially thought it was a typo for $370K but reading further I realized he meant it.

A Passport 47 that had been UNDER would sell for more than $37K.

If anyone wants some, help yourself.


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## SloopJonB

From the ad;



> The Boat is a 36′ steel sailboat named Silas Crosby. We built her over 2 yrs and 3 months and launched in 1994, or thereabouts. We had lots of help. *Brent Swain is the designer and he worked for 500 hrs initially , with me helping, to get the hull and deck together.*


Hmmmm - 500 hours to do the hull & deck but BS can do a hull in two days - lets be generous and say 2 X 15 hour days or 30 hours.

That leaves 470 hours for the deck - WITH a helper.

Unless that helper was REALLY good at getting in the way, I'd say the numbers don't compute.

I kind of think that the 2 day figure BS keeps throwing out is for just folding the fully prepared metal up and tacking it together - MAYBE fully welding it.

A hell of a long way from building a hull & deck although even 500 hours for a fully welded hull & deck is nothing to sneeze at - I daresay a custom glass hull that size would have 500 hours just in sanding and fairing.


----------



## Dean101

SloopJonB said:


> From the ad;
> 
> Hmmmm - 500 hours to do the hull & deck but BS can do a hull in two days - lets be generous and say 2 X 15 hour days or 30 hours.
> 
> That leaves 470 hours for the deck - WITH a helper.
> 
> Unless that helper was REALLY good at getting in the way, I'd say the numbers don't compute.
> 
> I kind of think that the 2 day figure BS keeps throwing out is for just folding the fully prepared metal up and tacking it together - MAYBE fully welding it.
> 
> A hell of a long way from building a hull & deck although even 500 hours for a fully welded hull & deck is nothing to sneeze at - I daresay a custom glass hull that size would have 500 hours just in sanding and fairing.


Oh, SNAP!!!!!


----------



## bobperry

Brent must be mistaken. Or, he invented that price and thinks we are dumb enough to actually believe that price. That's a bit insulting. I'm not keen on people who lie.


----------



## mstern

Bob: back to the lines of your latest creation: I noticed the plans are dated 2010; does it generally take that long between design and construction?


----------



## Faster

Brent Swain said:


> Perry designs are extremely rare here in BC. I know of only three.


You're kidding, right?? Look around.....



> Oh yes. I asked the owner of that immaculate Passport 47 how much he paid for her. He said $37K.


You're kidding, right??

Good Grief......


----------



## bobperry

Stern:
No, generally around 8 mos to a year will be enough to to build a custom boat. But in this case the boat was built at the Northwest School of Wooden Boatbuilding so we were subject to the school's schedule with all the school breaks. Finally Kim said enough time and hired four full time professional boatbuilders.

Also, keep in mind that sometimes the design work can start a year before the build. In this case about six months as I recall before the build. I need lead time so I am not chasing the builder.

Faster:
I checked YachtWorld this morning. I found two Passport 47's one was $345,000 and the other, the older model was $275,000. BS is making up his own "facts" again.

As for only three Perry designs in all of BC BS is totally delusional. But I don't trust him where any numbers are involved. He admits to having a problem with math. He should be here any moment. I think his shift at the 7-11 ends around 3pm.

I almost forgot:
Shin nyen quy ler!
Happy Chinese New Year

Or if you prefer Cantonese:
Gong hay fat choy!


----------



## delite

There used to be a Passport 47 at the Seycove Marina in Deep Cove. I cant tell you how much time I have spent looking at her whenever down there and wishing she was mine. I have also seen 1 of Brents here in BC but I couldnt bother with a second look.


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## bobperry

Heck Delite, you should have offerred the Passport 47 owner $39,500 you might have owned the boat!


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## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Or if you prefer Cantonese:
> Gong hay fat choy!


Every time I hear that I can't help wondering who fat Choy is.


----------



## Classic30

SloopJonB said:


> Every time I hear that I can't help wondering who fat Choy is.


Sloop, 'Fat Choy' is a passing sarcastic reference to Cheoy Lee yachts. They are steel and usually look kinda tubby... ..but of course you knew that already, didn't you?!?  

:laugher :laugher


----------



## bobperry

That's funny Classic.

I don't speak Cantonese. I know a few phrases but there are somewhere between 7 and 11 tones in Canoneses and that's why when you hear a comedian trying to replicate Chinese language they are all sing song. That's roughly the sound ofCantonese. I could not begin to deal with even 7 tones. Mandarin, on the other hand, has four distinct tones. I can handle four tones and I actually do quite well for someone who is self taught. But I've been teaching myself for 30 years. I have embarrassed myself so many times I've lost count. The wrong tone at the wrong time completely changes the word.
"No sir, you can't have sex in the restaurant." (true story) But I plug along and generally get good reception to my efforts. It's quite rewarding.


----------



## SloopJonB

We hosted Asian students for a number of years and I always noticed how surprised & pleased they & their parents were by any effort we made to learn & observe any of their cultural practices.

I don't think they see much of it from Gwai Lo.


----------



## Brent Swain

Classic30 said:


> Sloop, 'Fat Choy' is a passing sarcastic reference to Cheoy Lee yachts. They are steel and usually look kinda tubby... ..but of course you knew that already, didn't you?!?
> 
> :laugher :laugher


I've never seen nor heard of a Cheoy Lee built in steel. Any I have seen were plastic with teak ( dead vegetation ) foolishly bolted all over it.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Brent - you are so obviously full of crap it's pathetic. Here, have a look at the listings for a few Passport 47s:
> 
> Passport Yacht for Sale Brokerage - Bluenose Yacht Sales, Charter RI | Bluenose Yacht Sales
> 
> There are SEVEN of them on that one page alone. *The lowest price is $319K* with this little rejoinder:
> 
> Either your friend thinks you're an idiot - or you can't hear worth a damn - or he's lying to you to get you out of his hair and watch you make a fool of yourself on SN.
> 
> EVERY BS boat we've pulled up for sale is either not selling (*Silas Crosby*, *BS Cutter in Mex*) or has been dropping like a stone in price (*Xenos*, *Dove II*, *BS Pilot House in Mex*) - *because no one wants them*. Silas Crosby has the highest asking price of all these at $73K. And that ain't gonna happen. The only high sale prices we've EVER seen come from your mouth - along with all the other crap you spew.
> 
> If you can't prove it...it's BS.


Ask the guy on the Passport 47 ( Adeso)at the gas dock in Comox how much he paid for her. He will tell you the same thing he told me. $137K


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> From the ad;
> 
> Hmmmm - 500 hours to do the hull & deck but BS can do a hull in two days - lets be generous and say 2 X 15 hour days or 30 hours.
> 
> That leaves 470 hours for the deck - WITH a helper.
> 
> Unless that helper was REALLY good at getting in the way, I'd say the numbers don't compute.
> 
> I kind of think that the 2 day figure BS keeps throwing out is for just folding the fully prepared metal up and tacking it together - MAYBE fully welding it.
> 
> A hell of a long way from building a hull & deck although even 500 hours for a fully welded hull & deck is nothing to sneeze at - I daresay a custom glass hull that size would have 500 hours just in sanding and fairing.


I worked a couple of weeks in June of that year getting the shell together. Then a couple of weeks of detail work There is no way I worked 3 months of 40 hour weeks on Silas Crosby. I went cruising most of that summer. I haven't worked that much since the mid 70s
I put the decks on a 36 on Quadra Island ,after digging the plate out of the tall grass, uncut, in 8 hours .Ask Dale Deforest of NY Olympia how long it took to get the shell together. 2 days for the hull. The steel came Thursday afternoon, and by 11 pm Friday the hull was together, the longitudinals and bulwark caps on, and the transom in .Decks took a day.
Yes, that is just tacked together , but instead of the 180 feet of chine welds you would have to do on a triple chine hull ,you have only 28 feet of chine, total, to weld and grind. A round bilged hull would be far more seams to cut weld and grind. On my hulls, there is zero fairing to do.

Then you could always ask a plastic boat builder if he could built a plastic 36 ft shell for the $9K in steel it takes to do the shell of a 36. Welding rod is an extra $350.


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## bobperry

Comox? That's where my new consultation client lives. He had some choice words to say about Brent's boats. But to each his own I guess.

"On my hulls, there is zero fairing to do. "
So what you are saying is that you get a really smooth funny looking boat.
Great.


----------



## Classic30

Brent Swain said:


> I've never seen nor heard of a Cheoy Lee built in steel. Any I have seen were plastic with teak ( dead vegetation ) foolishly bolted all over it.


Well, here you go Brent - now you have:

The 44.8m Motor Yacht MARCO POLO by Cheoy Lee Shipyards - Charter World Luxury Yacht Charters on Superyachts

I never said anything about a *sailing* yacht..


----------



## Brent Swain

Dean101 said:


> Here's a question that is probably a little more in line with the thread subject. How badly does a steel boat affect compass deviation compared to other hull materials? And does a steel hull affect autopilot systems that have those compass computers?


We had a compass adjuster named Captain Barber on one of my boats, swinging the compass. He had some interesting points to make . When asked about flux gate compasses, he said "Those make more work for me than they take away. A steel boat will swing a compass at 100 yards. People buy the flux gate at huge expense, give up trying to get them to work, then give me a call." He said the balls work upright, but heeling throws them out. What it takes to deal with heeling is a magnet dead centre, right below the compass. 
He said the dome compasses have a power factor of about 8. Card compasses ,the Seattle made Dirigo being one of the best , have a power factor of about 400 .
When asked to check out a Dirigo, he took his steel tape measure and moved it towards, and away from the compass. He said if you pull the compass of course and it goes right back to where it was, the pins are good. If it stays off a by a few degrees, the pins are worn. One way to avoid damaging the pins is to mount it on foam rubber, as vibration is what dulls the pins. However, I believe the constant motion of a sailboat at sea will nullify the effect of resistance in the pins. Flat sea in a fog bank in our protected inside waters may be a problem with a sticky compass tho.
I have found my Autohelm very forgiving in its proximity to steel . It has never locked in . I have heard other brands like Tillermaster and Navico have problems in a steel boat. One of my 36 footers had the autohelm along side the wheelhouse side, 3 inches from the steel with no problems, going from BC, to Mexico, to Hawaii, to Alaska and home again. Other brands , I have been told, would not work so close to steel.
With GPS, you can check your compass on any course, by comparing it to the GPS, and writing it down,. not an option in the past.
With an autopilot, sometimes the buttons stick, throwing the helm hard over. Usually this happens when you first turn them on. I suspect that may be what happened when pleasure boats suddenly swung 90 degrees into the path of BC ferries in recent years, resulting in several deaths.One should never use an autopilot ,unattended, in crowded waters .
Thanks for the question on the subject of steel boats. Its a breath of fresh air, after Bob's frequent name calling , baby pictures, pool pictures, food and booze postings, plastic boat postings , and constant attempts to change the subject to something which has nothing to do with the original question, all to cover his almost complete lack of knowledge of steel boats.


----------



## bobperry

Cheoy Lee has been a big shipyard in Hong Kong for many years. They have built just about anything you can imagine including a lot of commercial vessels.. But don't confuse Brent with reality. He has trouble with it.


----------



## Faster

Brent Swain said:


> Ask the guy on the Passport 47 ( Adeso)at the gas dock in Comox how much he paid for her. He will tell you the same thing he told me. $137K


Aahh.... so now we're moving from $37K to $137K...getting closer!.. another couple of hours and another $100K?


----------



## bobperry

Brent went back and edited his previous post on the price. Probably another one of his "typos". Like a LPS of 182 degrees.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Comox? That's where my new consultation client lives. He had some choice words to say about Brent's boats. But to each his own I guess.
> 
> "On my hulls, there is zero fairing to do. "
> So what you are saying is that you get a really smooth funny looking boat.
> Great.


So get him to ask the price of the Passport 47.
Will he keep his Perry Design in Comox ? Great , we can have our demolition derby! Ask him how many of my boats are here. I can think of eleven. One more in Campbell river, three on Quadra, one more in Deep bay. Then ask him how may of your designs are in the area.


----------



## Brent Swain

Faster said:


> Aahh.... so now we're moving from $37K to $137K...getting closer!.. another couple of hours and another $100K?


When I said Shinola was almost as much, at $95K, it was obviously a typo. Obvious to the awake, and booze free. Not obvious to you guys . I overestimated your awareness.

$137 K is along way from the lowest price of $319K Smack gives.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> I've never seen nor heard of a Cheoy Lee built in steel. Any I have seen were plastic with teak ( dead vegetation ) foolishly bolted all over it.


Jeezzus Brent, don't you EVER stop? 

We get it, we really, really do.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> I worked a couple of weeks in June of that year getting the shell together. Then a couple of weeks of detail work There is no way I worked 3 months of 40 hour weeks on Silas Crosby. I went cruising most of that summer. I haven't worked that much since the mid 70s
> I put the decks on a 36 on Quadra Island ,after digging the plate out of the tall grass, uncut, in 8 hours .Ask Dale Deforest of NY Olympia how long it took to get the shell together. 2 days for the hull. The steel came Thursday afternoon, and by 11 pm Friday the hull was together, the longitudinals and bulwark caps on, and the transom in .Decks took a day.
> Yes, that is just tacked together , but instead of the 180 feet of chine welds you would have to do on a triple chine hull ,you have only 28 feet of chine, total, to weld and grind. A round bilged hull would be far more seams to cut weld and grind. On my hulls, there is zero fairing to do.
> 
> Then you could always ask a plastic boat builder if he could built a plastic 36 ft shell for the $9K in steel it takes to do the shell of a 36. Welding rod is an extra $350.


So you seem to be saying that your clients statement that agree with your stories are true but if they don't agree with your stories they are lying?

*Did you or did you not spend 500 hours working with the owner of Silas to get the hull & deck welded up?*

Yes or no - we don't need a long diatribe on the wonders of your method.

Just a simple yes or no please.


----------



## Brent Swain

kimbottles said:


> That yacht designer was named Lewis Francis Herreshoff, son of Nathanael Greene Herreshoff.
> 
> But this vessel is named after my late Father; Francis Lee McKee Bottles. That seemed a bit long so I settled on "Francis Lee".
> 
> (But I do admit as a long time admirer of LFH's designs I did notice the similarity.)


Francis Herreschoff wrote a great book called "The common sense of Yacht Design" containing lot of common sense and logic , the antithesis some of the crap being posted here.


----------



## bobperry

So you have 11 ugly boats, visual blights on the environment. I wouldn't say that was an advantage. If I lived on that bay and had to look at those droopy piles of rust I'd be pissed.

"Demolition derby"? Are you kidding me? Do you think that's what this is about? You stoop lower and lower. I can tell you now that my client's ideas of yachting and cruising do not involve a "demolition derby" with one of your crusty and rusty home built monstrosities. What's there to damage?

I really, sincerely think that LFH (it is not "francois" you dimwit) would have taken offense at your boats. We'll never know of course but LFH was the master of aesthetics. He drew very beautiful yachts. I'm going to take it on myself to be insulted for LFH (He can't be here) that you would ever dream of associating yourself with his work. Preposterous! A pox on you!

But always fun to watch you twist in the wind. You are entertaining.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> So you have 11 ugly boats, visual blights on the environment. I wouldn't say that was an advantage. If I lived on that bay and had to look at those droopy piles of rust I'd be pissed.
> 
> "Demolition derby"? Are you kidding me? Do you think that's what this is about? You stoop lower and lower. I can tell you now that my client's ideas of yachting and cruising do not involve a "demolition derby" with one of your crusty and rusty home built monstrosities. What's there to damage?
> 
> I really, sincerely think that LFH (it is not "francois" you dimwit) would have taken offense at your boats. We'll never know of course but LFH was the master of aesthetics. He drew very beautiful yachts. I'm going to take it on myself to be insulted for LFH (He can't be here) that you would ever dream of associating yourself with his work. Preposterous! A pox on you!
> 
> But always fun to watch you twist in the wind. You are entertaining.


And this is the Bob who complains about others "name calling." He doesn't consider the above "Name calling"? Where does that leave his credibility? He is also the one who never does typos? Ya sure!
There is no more accurate way to determine structural strength that a demolition derby . Bob squirms away from that, an admission that he knows full well that his boats wouldn't stand a chance against the superior structural strength of my designs . He prefers Briex style numbers crunching ,to reality, knowing reality will quickly expose the fallacy of his creative accounting .
Sounds like ''Hit the bottle " time of night for Bob. Take it easy on that stuff Bob. It has screwed up enough lives already!
Bob , stop being so angry! You are foaming at the mouth!


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> So you seem to be saying that your clients statement that agree with your stories are true but if they don't agree with your stories they are lying?
> 
> *Did you or did you not spend 500 hours working with the owner of Silas to get the hull & deck welded up?*
> 
> Yes or no - we don't need a long diatribe on the wonders of your method.
> 
> Just a simple yes or no please.


NO . I did not spend 500 hours on Silas Crosby . I spent nowhere near that amount of time. He hired others to work on her, and did a lot himself.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Brent went back and edited his previous post on the price. Probably another one of his "typos". Like a LPS of 182 degrees.


Not to worry. It's still in his quote in my post. The dude is one seriously shifty bonehead.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> And this is the Bob who complains about others "name calling." He doesn't consider the above "Name calling"? Where does that leave his credibility? He is also the one who never does typos? Ya sure!
> There is no more accurate way to determine structural strength that a demolition derby . Bob squirms away from that, an admission that he knows full well that his boats wouldn't stand a chance against the superior structural strength of my designs . He prefers Briex style numbers crunching ,to reality, knowing reality will quickly expose the fallacy of his creative accounting .
> Sounds like ''Hit the bottle " time of night for Bob. Take it easy on that stuff Bob. It has screwed up enough lives already!


Bob doesn't lie. You do. Effusively. Actually, I've never seen anything like it. It's fascinating how easily and how much you lie. It really is.

You're building quite a legacy for yourself.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Not to worry. It's still in his quote in my post. The dude is one seriously shifty bonehead.


And they accuse me of name calling? Smack doesn't consider the above "Name calling?" And still; he calls me a liar?"
So where does that leave his credibility?
One should bear in mind, when reading Smacks posts, that he is someone with absolutely zero experience in owning, maintaining, building, or long term cruising in a steel boat, just like his hero Bob. Yet he speaks with assumed authority on the subject ? And after that, he calls me a liar?
Getting any of your steel boat info from either is a huge mistake. You'd be wiser to get it from someone with at least some experience in the subject matter , preferably a lot of such experience .


----------



## bobperry

Chill Brent. Relax. You are getting upset. I think I see spittle in the corners of your mouth.

Yeah, I admit it I was a bit mean in that last post but I felt the need to do it Brent style. But you go on and on about name calling. I called you a "dimwit". You are a dimwit. You demonstrate it every day. If you go back to the BD forum you have been proving your stupidity for well over ten years. It never ends. You never learn. You never "get it".

Hey Smackers:
Am I really your hero?
That's cool. Do I get a special suit?
Can I fly?

No, no way. None of my clients are interested in a "demolition derby?. I'm not "squirming away" from it. I just think it's one of the silliest ideas I have ever heard. Do you really think an owner of a nice looking boat is remotely interested in having a "demolition derby" with one of your,,,things? That is some weird world you live in where boat owners hold demolition derbies. I've never seen it.

But the sad fact is you do lie. You lie and then "edit" the lie. Or you claim it was a typo. But in the end they are just BS. You make things up like ten year old. And the really sad thing is that you expect us to buy your lies. That is insulting.
We can have a great heated debate without lies.

I have given you credit for what you do. You help the beans and rice crowd build a hulk. That's great. Why don't you just enjoy that. Why do you find it necessary to attack everyone who finds a different way of enjoying sailing. You have called us all kinds of names so don't whine about name calling now. How about this adult idea: If you don't want to be called names, then don't call people names. If you want to call names then shut up when you are called names.


----------



## Dean101

Brent Swain said:


> We had a compass adjuster named Captain Barber on one of my boats, swinging the compass. He had some interesting points to make . When asked about flux gate compasses, he said "Those make more work for me than they take away. A steel boat will swing a compass at 100 yards. People buy the flux gate at huge expense, give up trying to get them to work, then give me a call." He said the balls work upright, but heeling throws them out. What it takes to deal with heeling is a magnet dead centre, right below the compass.
> He said the dome compasses have a power factor of about 8. Card compasses ,the Seattle made Dirigo being one of the best , have a power factor of about 400 .
> When asked to check out a Dirigo, he took his steel tape measure and moved it towards, and away from the compass. He said if you pull the compass of course and it goes right back to where it was, the pins are good. If it stays off a by a few degrees, the pins are worn. One way to avoid damaging the pins is to mount it on foam rubber, as vibration is what dulls the pins. However, I believe the constant motion of a sailboat at sea will nullify the effect of resistance in the pins. Flat sea in a fog bank in our protected inside waters may be a problem with a sticky compass tho.
> I have found my Autohelm very forgiving in its proximity to steel . It has never locked in . I have heard other brands like Tillermaster and Navico have problems in a steel boat. One of my 36 footers had the autohelm along side the wheelhouse side, 3 inches from the steel with no problems, going from BC, to Mexico, to Hawaii, to Alaska and home again. Other brands , I have been told, would not work so close to steel.
> With GPS, you can check your compass on any course, by comparing it to the GPS, and writing it down,. not an option in the past.
> With an autopilot, sometimes the buttons stick, throwing the helm hard over. Usually this happens when you first turn them on. I suspect that may be what happened when pleasure boats suddenly swung 90 degrees into the path of BC ferries in recent years, resulting in several deaths.One should never use an autopilot ,unattended, in crowded waters .
> Thanks for the question on the subject of steel boats. Its a breath of fresh air, after Bob's frequent name calling , baby pictures, pool pictures, food and booze postings, plastic boat postings , and constant attempts to change the subject to something which has nothing to do with the original question, all to cover his almost complete lack of knowledge of steel boats.


You're welcome for the subject contents but you really didn't answer my questions.

How badly does a steel boat affect compass deviation compared to other hull materials? And does a steel hull affect autopilot systems that have those compass computers?

You gave some info on swinging the compass and even mentioned the balls, but can they be compensated to minimal deviation when mounted in a steel hull as well as in other materials. I know you have no love for, nor experience with "plastics" or wood so I'm not sure you can answer this.

Some fellow intimated that fluxgate compasses are worthless on a steel hull. Aren't those the type of compasses that many autohelms use? I could be mistaken in that.
You said "I have found my Autohelm very forgiving in its proximity to steel ." but you didn't mention a brand. Are there autohelms that are manufactured specifically for use in a steel hull?

Your last paragraph was useless. You placed me on Bob and Smack's team earlier if you will recall.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> And they accuse me of name calling? Smack doesn't consider the above "Name calling?" And still; he calls me a liar?"
> So where does that leave his credibility?
> One should bear in mind, when reading Smacks posts, that he is someone with absolutely zero experience in owning, maintaining, building, or long term cruising in a steel boat, just like his hero Bob. Yet he speaks with assumed authority on the subject ? And after that, he calls me a liar?
> Getting any of your steel boat info from either is a huge mistake. You'd be wiser to get it from someone with at least some experience in the subject matter , preferably a lot of such experience .


But you do lie Brent. Relentlessly. I've shown that to be true countless times in this thread - using your own contradicting claims to prove it. To you...it's always just a "typo" (when you're caught) - or the reader just not being able to grasp your brilliance and misconstruing your true meaning. But it's really just a lie. Always. Everyone...except you...can see that.

This is not at all "name calling". It's been clearly proven in this thread countless times. For example, look at the tool list you just submitted above as all one would need to buy to build a BS boat. Completely untrue. Is that a "typo"?

My heroes are usually people with talent, confidence, knowledge, humor, honesty, and kindness. Bob has shown these things in spades (as have many others on this forum).

You've got a little bit of talent in a couple of minimal areas.


----------



## bobperry

So, if I read this correctly I don't get a cape or any kind of special suit, no pointy ears and I can kiss any hope of flying out the window.

I've put up with a lot of BS here. I deserve some powers. Bolts of lightening out of my fingers or something like that. I want powers.

****ski, back to the same old same old real word.
But what about my avatar?


----------



## Dean101

Brent Swain said:


> And they accuse me of name calling? Smack doesn't consider the above "Name calling?" And still; he calls me a liar?"
> So where does that leave his credibility?
> One should bear in mind, when reading Smacks posts, that he is someone with absolutely zero experience in owning, maintaining, building, or long term cruising in a steel boat, just like his hero Bob. Yet he speaks with assumed authority on the subject ? And after that, he calls me a liar?
> Getting any of your steel boat info from either is a huge mistake. You'd be wiser to get it from someone with at least some experience in the subject matter , preferably a lot of such experience .


If I had a dollar for every time I've read that statement in this thread, I would have a good down payment on a Passport!


----------



## Dean101

bobperry said:


> So, if I read this correctly I don't get a cape or any kind of special suit, no pointy ears and I can kiss any hope of flying out the window.
> 
> I've put up with a lot of BS here. I deserve some powers. Bolts of lightening out of my fingers or something like that. I want powers.
> 
> ****ski, back to the same old same old real word.
> But what about my avatar?


You mean that's not a real picture of you?


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Francis Herreschoff wrote a great book called "The common sense of Yacht Design" containing lot of common sense and logic , the antithesis some of the crap being posted here.


I've got a copy - he wrote it about 75 years ago or did you miss that part?

Don't confuse his appreciation of simplicity with a lack of concern for yacht style. I seriously doubt LFH would be one of your supporters here - he concentrated on the beauty of his boats, not workboat like practicality.

Were he still alive I feel certain he would have embraced "frozen snot" long since.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> NO . I did not spend 500 hours on Silas Crosby . I spent nowhere near that amount of time. He hired others to work on her, and did a lot himself.


So which of your clients stories are we to believe? Just the ones you feel like quoting?


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> And this is the Bob who complains about others "name calling." He doesn't consider the above "Name calling"? Where does that leave his credibility? He is also the one who never does typos? Ya sure!
> There is no more accurate way to determine structural strength that a demolition derby . Bob squirms away from that, an admission that he knows full well that his boats wouldn't stand a chance against the superior structural strength of my designs . He prefers Briex style numbers crunching ,to reality, knowing reality will quickly expose the fallacy of his creative accounting .
> Sounds like ''Hit the bottle " time of night for Bob. Take it easy on that stuff Bob. It has screwed up enough lives already!


How about some sailboat figure 8 racing?


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> And they accuse me of name calling? Smack doesn't consider the above "Name calling?" And still; he calls me a liar?"
> So where does that leave his credibility?
> One should bear in mind, when reading Smacks posts, that he is someone with absolutely zero experience in owning, maintaining, building, or long term cruising in a steel boat, just like his hero Bob. Yet he speaks with assumed authority on the subject ? And after that, he calls me a liar?
> Getting any of your steel boat info from either is a huge mistake. You'd be wiser to get it from someone with at least some experience in the subject matter , preferably a lot of such experience .


Actually, I don't recall Smack ever stating anything about steel boats "with authority". Usually he just turns your own statements back on you by pointing out inconsistencies and contradictions in them.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Hey Smackers:
> Am I really your hero?
> That's cool. Do I get a special suit?
> Can I fly?


I think it only gets you a cookie.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> But what about my avatar?


Batman didn't have powers - he was a playboy with lots of cool gear and the greatest man cave ever.


----------



## Classic30

SloopJonB said:


> How about some sailboat figure 8 racing?


You.. must.. be.. joking..  

That wouldn't even be safe to watch from a distance!!! :laugher


----------



## Capt Len

Figure 8 racing usually includes the crash to pass technique. Could be interesting and fit the requirements of this thread.Entertaining but of little real value


----------



## mitiempo

Brent missed a chapter in his book called "Navigation."


----------



## bobperry

Who put that rock there?


----------



## smackdaddy

mitiempo said:


> Brent missed a chapter in his book called "Navigation."


If one thing has been proven in this thread, it's Brent's main selling point...

"If you have a steel boat, you don't need to know how to navigate or sail. Just bounce off of stuff until you get there.)


----------



## bobperry

And yes, for the record I am running away from a demolition derby.


----------



## Brent Swain

Bobs theory is if you would just built them fragile enough, that sort of thing just wouldn't happen. Does any experienced cruiser actually believe that? What sort of damage would that rock have done to one of Bobs plastic boats ?Unless you believe his boats never go aground perhaps Bob can tel us of extreme torture tests, such as my boats have survived, which his have survived .No answer ? Conclusion. There are none!
Smack called me a liar for saying Bob designed the Reliance. Bob said he did design the Reliance. So who is the liar?


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> So you have 11 ugly boats, visual blights on the environment. I wouldn't say that was an advantage. If I lived on that bay and had to look at those droopy piles of rust I'd be pissed.
> 
> 11 is one more than Smack gives for the total number on the planet, in a small area ,for boats which have fanned out across the planet. Where does that leave Smack's credibility?
> Your Comox friend can confirm that a picture of one of my 36 footers was put on lamp posts across Comox to beautify the town, for several years. They have also shown up on postcards here . Seems your opinion is a tiny minority one.
> I have never seen a town do that with a Perry design.


----------



## Brent Swain

Dean101 said:


> You mean that's not a real picture of you?


No, its copyright infringement, for which he will get the bill later, and pass it on to his clients.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Hey Smackers:
> Am I really your hero?
> .
> The term "Blond Groupie" comes to mind. That would be more accurate!


----------



## Martinjf

Brent Swain said:


> We had a compass adjuster named Captain Barber on one of my boats, swinging the compass. He had some interesting points to make . When asked about flux gate compasses, he said "Those make more work for me than they take away. A steel boat will swing a compass at 100 yards. People buy the flux gate at huge expense, give up trying to get them to work, then give me a call." He said the balls work upright, but heeling throws them out. What it takes to deal with heeling is a magnet dead centre, right below the compass.
> He said the dome compasses have a power factor of about 8. Card compasses ,the Seattle made Dirigo being one of the best , have a power factor of about 400 .
> When asked to check out a Dirigo, he took his steel tape measure and moved it towards, and away from the compass. He said if you pull the compass of course and it goes right back to where it was, the pins are good. If it stays off a by a few degrees, the pins are worn. One way to avoid damaging the pins is to mount it on foam rubber, as vibration is what dulls the pins. However, I believe the constant motion of a sailboat at sea will nullify the effect of resistance in the pins. Flat sea in a fog bank in our protected inside waters may be a problem with a sticky compass tho.
> I have found my Autohelm very forgiving in its proximity to steel . It has never locked in . I have heard other brands like Tillermaster and Navico have problems in a steel boat. One of my 36 footers had the autohelm along side the wheelhouse side, 3 inches from the steel with no problems, going from BC, to Mexico, to Hawaii, to Alaska and home again. Other brands , I have been told, would not work so close to steel.
> With GPS, you can check your compass on any course, by comparing it to the GPS, and writing it down,. not an option in the past.
> With an autopilot, sometimes the buttons stick, throwing the helm hard over. Usually this happens when you first turn them on. I suspect that may be what happened when pleasure boats suddenly swung 90 degrees into the path of BC ferries in recent years, resulting in several deaths.One should never use an autopilot ,unattended, in crowded waters .
> Thanks for the question on the subject of steel boats. Its a breath of fresh air, after Bob's frequent name calling , baby pictures, pool pictures, food and booze postings, plastic boat postings , and constant attempts to change the subject to something which has nothing to do with the original question, all to cover his almost complete lack of knowledge of steel boats.


Trying to follow this, forgive my lack of understanding. What is compass power factor?


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
It seems you have gone over the edge. You are really making no sense at all. Probably a result of the concussions you sufferred doing floating demoplition derbies.

If you are happy with your aesthetics that's great. You don' seem happy with much else.

BTW:
I went down the FRANCIS LEE this morning and took freeboards. We are floating 421 lbs. light with a .25 degree bow down trim with one man in the cockpit. Tanks are empty, no sails and several dodads to add yet but we will be very, very close to the designed weight.


----------



## Dean101

Martinjf said:


> Trying to follow this, forgive my lack of understanding. What is compass power factor?


I have no idea either. I'm glad I'm not the only one.


----------



## bobperry

That's a new term for me too.


----------



## Dean101

bobperry said:


> Brent:
> It seems you have gone over the edge. You are really making no sense at all. Probably a result of the concussions you sufferred doing floating demoplition derbies.
> 
> If you are happy with your aesthetics that's great. You don' seem happy with much else.
> 
> BTW:
> I went down the FRANCIS LEE this morning and took freeboards. *We are floating 421 lbs. light with a .25 degree bow down trim with one man in the cockpit. Tanks are empty, no sails and several dodads to add yet but we will be very, very close to the designed weight*.


You mean you didn't just build the boat like the picture shows, hope for the best, and plan on making changes to the next one? :laugher


----------



## Dean101

Brent Swain said:


> No, its copyright infringement, for which he will get the bill later, and pass it on to his clients.


Lucky for you that you haven't received any bills for the damage to all the reefs your boats have bounced across.


----------



## bobperry

Deano:
Due to the unusual nature of Frankie, i.e. very long and very skinny I started the weight study early on in the design process. I knew it was critical to understand just how much we could put into the ballast bulb. We sure as hell weren't going to get much stability from form. I was also concerned that we track the weights to insure that the boat did not get heavy. The red cedar strip planking had me skeptical initially. Boat and components were weighed during the build and the weight study was amended as we went along so we always had a pretty good idea of where we stood weight wise.

I prefer not to guess on something this important. It paid off. Kim is about as happy as you could imagine at this stage. He wants me to bet with him on fast the boat will go under power. I'm not the betting type. We are hoping for double digits.


----------



## Martinjf

Yup I understand it for electrical curcuits, but it is a dimensionless number between -1 and 1 and has nothing to do with compasses. I supose you could talk about the current induced in the compass needle but since a compass tends to align itself with the magnetic field rather than transitioning it at any angle (and speed on a saliboat) that would induce any measurable current I don't have the foggiest idea what BS is talking about.


----------



## Dean101

bobperry said:


> Deano:
> Due to the unusual nature of Frankie, i.e. very long and very skinny I started the weight study early on in the design process. I knew it was critical to understand just how much we could put into the ballast bulb. We sure as hell weren't going to get much stability from form. I was also concerned that we track the weights to insure that the boat did not get heavy. The red cedar strip planking had me skeptical initially. Boat and components were weighed during the build and the weight study was amended as we went along so we always had a pretty good idea of where we stood weight wise.
> 
> I prefer not to guess on something this important. It paid off. Kim is about as happy as you could imagine at this stage. He wants me to bet with him on fast the boat will go under power. I'm not the betting type. We are hoping for double digits.


I was being tongue in cheek. I've seen your name attached to a LOT of boats stretching back quite a few years. You wouldn't have your reputation without a thorough knowledge base and experience in applying that knowledge in all your different designs. I've got the impression that Brent started by building a basic hull that looks like it would work in origami and went from there. He could weld on either a single or twin keels, added a deck and superstructure, mast, rigging, and those handrails and WAHLA! A boat! It wouldn't be too difficult even for me working with known material weight to come up with some reasonable ratios. The strength of the steel combined with the strength of the welds holding on the apertures would ensure the whole thing wouldn't collapse. In the end, you have what you have. That is very different from doing all those ridiculous math calculations and modeling so you know pretty closely what you will end up with BEFORE you actually spend the money to build it. All the pictures I've seen of his boats look like they derived from the same hull. Everything else aside, that caters to only a very small crowd.


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## bobperry

Deano:
I knew you were joking. No problemo.

Here's a joke:
A little old man shuffled slowly into an ice cream parlour and pulled himself slowly, painfully, up onto a stool... After catching his breath, he ordered a banana split.
The waitress asked kindly, 'Crushed nuts?'
'No,' he replied, 'Arthritis.'


----------



## Dean101

Martinjf said:


> Yup I understand it for electrical curcuits, but it is a dimensionless number between -1 and 1 and has nothing to do with compasses. I supose you could talk about the current induced in the compass needle but since a compass tends to align itself with the magnetic field rather than transitioning it at any angle (and speed on a saliboat) that would induce any measurable current I don't have the foggiest idea what BS is talking about.


At first I thought he was referring to the magnification effect of the card the glass and liquid provide but at the numbers he mentioned they would be HUGE! Other than ensuring that wiring and electronics have sufficient separation from the compass, I can't see why calculating electrical current generated by the magnets would matter. I don't think anyone wants to use a compass as a transformer. I think they compensate for deviation by using other small magnets inside the compass casing don't they?


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## Dean101

bobperry said:


> Deano:
> I knew you were joking. No problemo.
> 
> Here's a joke:
> A little old man shuffled slowly into an ice cream parlour and pulled himself slowly, painfully, up onto a stool... After catching his breath, he ordered a banana split.
> The waitress asked kindly, 'Crushed nuts?'
> 'No,' he replied, 'Arthritis.'


:laugherGood one Bob!!:laugher I'll have to use that one!


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## SloopJonB

mitiempo said:


> Brent missed a chapter in his book called "Navigation."


That is actually from the section of Brent's book called "Sales Pitch".


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## SloopJonB

Dean101 said:


> I was being tongue in cheek. I've seen your name attached to a LOT of boats stretching back quite a few years. You wouldn't have your reputation without a thorough knowledge base and experience in applying that knowledge in all your different designs. I've got the impression that Brent started by building a basic hull that looks like it would work in origami and went from there. He could weld on either a single or twin keels, added a deck and superstructure, mast, rigging, and those handrails and WAHLA! A boat! It wouldn't be too difficult even for me working with known material weight to come up with some reasonable ratios. The strength of the steel combined with the strength of the welds holding on the apertures would ensure the whole thing wouldn't collapse. In the end, you have what you have. That is very different from doing all those ridiculous math calculations and modeling so you know pretty closely what you will end up with BEFORE you actually spend the money to build it. All the pictures I've seen of his boats look like they derived from the same hull. Everything else aside, that caters to only a very small crowd.


Your impression is pretty spot on. Brent works in a very similar fashion to the old style "beach builders" who build some very substantial work boats by eye, experience and tradition on third world beaches throughout the world.

That makes him part of an ancient and fairly effective tradition but it ain't particularly sophisticated or varied.

On the other hand, Windward Passage was built on the beach in the Bahamas. They used plans from a noted N/A though, not just their thumbs & eyes.


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## bobperry

"They used plans"
and that is the difference.


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## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> "They used plans"
> and that is the difference.


The "Noted N/A" part counts too.


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## mstern

Bob: how accurate is the weight study? When I first realized that NA's did such a thing, my first thought was "how can they account for every little do-dad that goes on board a sophisticated yacht?" I had always assumed the NA had a list with the weights of various materials, and simply applied them to the estimated quantities of material that were planned to go into construction. Based on your earlier post, I now know you keep a running tab on the actual weights of the material used. Do you do an estimate before you start, then adjust the numbers as the actual material is used? If so, how do you adjust the design if your estimate turns out to be significantly off? I've learned alot about design over the years by reading your column in Sailing, and in forums like this; it seems the more I learn, the less I know....


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## bobperry

mstern:
You pretty much nailed it:

Yes, in this case that is exactly what we did. I started a weight study and used calculations and wild ass guesses. At the time we didn't even know what material we would use for the hull. I had to guess based upon what I thought was a suitable and reasonable ghrp hull laminate. You can dig up an engine weight easily then add something for exhaust, shaft, strip, prop, fuel, tanks, paint etc. At the end I threw on 1,300 lbs. of "overage" to cover things I did not list separately. In some designs this can be as much as 10% of the total displ. and then still not be enough.

Kim and I went over and over the weight estimate in the early days, slowly pinning the various categories down. The when the build began they started physically weighing components and Kim would add them into the weight study. We used load cells to weigh the hull when it was done. Kim would stand on a scale holding a composite bulkhead to get the weight.

Weight studies are notoriously difficult to get accurate. For a big, complex boat it takes a man creative with numbers to get the weights right. There have been some famous weight study mistakes over the years. In our case we were lucky. Kim wanted a simple boat. It was not too difficult to do the accounting and get the weights accurate.


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## Faster

*Speaking of steel masts....*

.. which we were a few days back..

Came across a large, heavy, scary looking Ferro boat today at Granville Island, in front of Bridge's Pub.

Its rather spindly rig caught my attention too, and as we approached this is what we saw:





Not so pretty.. even healthy and maintained this rig looked way to small for the boat, I hope nobody plans to seriously load all this up at sea


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## SloopJonB

You'd think that with that elaborate ladder on it they could at least have kept it painted.


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## MikeJohns

There are two real disadvantages that I've found with steel masts. Corrosion is one unless it's well coated or metal-sprayed with zinc or aluminium.

The second is that it wreaks havoc with the magnetic compass that mass of steel moving out to port and then to stbd creates a lot of deviation with heel.

Structurally steel masts are sensible though, steel is much stiffer than Al alloy and mast dimensions are driven by buckling criteria which relates to stiffness. So the weight is often not much greater than the available alloy section and the steel sections can be significantly smaller and runners can usually be omitted.

All the sections I've used on smaller conventionally rigged vessels have been rectangular stock sizes. I have seen some welded up from plate that were perfectly ok.

One big advantage is that all the fittings are simply welded on , replacing the mast is also quite cheap.


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## neverknow

wow, over 360 pages on this thread. I did read the first 20 or so pages and in those the discussion was raging over fiberglass vs steel vs aluminum boats.

Much talk about the stresses and cracks on AL boats. Considering there's many more small boats being made out of AL than steel or fiberglass it makes since you can find stories of those boats having problems.

Also I too have a small 16 foot AL fishing boat I use on the river. Because I know it can take it I often run it up on shoal rocks or the beach. After 15 yrs of doing this it does have some cracks. I do this because I know it can take it. There's no way I'd ever treat a fiberglass boat this way.

I wonder if some of the stories you read are similar, if you know you have a well built boat you tend to use it more often and take more chances with it.

Kind of like a plastic cup vs a crystal wine glass. The wine glass spends 90% of the time in the cabinet.


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## bobperry

Never:
I think there is some truth in what you say.

I have a set of Lalique wine glasses. I almost never use them. They have naked cherubs wrapped around a bunch of grapes where the stem meets the bowl.

But I do use glass wine glasses. I would never drink out of a plastic cup if I had a glass option.

Nobody has argued that steel and alloy boats are not the most durable.
I like alu boats.


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## djodenda

Got to see Francis Lee on Saturday morning as well.. Sorry I missed you, Bob..

The boat looks great! I prefer the new transparent aluminum tiller to the marine-grade 2X4s..

Again, congratulations to Kim and Bob..

I noticed the electric winches... Are the power requirements low enough on the battery that they can be kept charged with just normal engine operation?


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## Brent Swain

mstern said:


> Bob: how accurate is the weight study? When I first realized that NA's did such a thing, my first thought was "how can they account for every little do-dad that goes on board a sophisticated yacht?" I had always assumed the NA had a list with the weights of various materials, and simply applied them to the estimated quantities of material that were planned to go into construction. Based on your earlier post, I now know you keep a running tab on the actual weights of the material used. Do you do an estimate before you start, then adjust the numbers as the actual material is used? If so, how do you adjust the design if your estimate turns out to be significantly off? I've learned alot about design over the years by reading your column in Sailing, and in forums like this; it seems the more I learn, the less I know....


Silas Crosby came up 6 inches at 1150 lbs per inch, when Steve emptied her out, as did Winston's first 36. Both had places ashore to store their extra junk; their boat was not their only storage place. There is no way of calculating how much weight anyone will put in a boat. The interior, or for that matter, the weight of any 36 built of the same or similar plate thickness is pretty much, about the same , unlike plastic boats , which can vary greatly in thickness. The differences in what any two owners will put aboard varies far more than any differences in the boat weight. That appears to be something plastic boat designers have problems grasping.
How relevant is the weight of a galley pump, compared to the differences in weight of what goes aboard? Worth paying someone $150 an hour, or $35K to calculate?
People building my boats from my plans and book ,and Alex's video, have had no problem building, and have said it is the easiest boat to build they have ever built.


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## bobperry

"Worth paying someone $150 an hour, or $35K to calculate?"

It wouldn't be worth paying you that much Brent because you have problems with math as you have admitted. But it's worth paying me that because I get it right as evidenced by Frankie. If you want quality design work you will have to pay for it. BS is cheap.

Case in point:
Someone put 6,900 lbs. of gear on a 36' boat? Wow! And for accuracy sake, it isn't 1,150 lbs. per inch for 6" in trim change. The lbs. per inch would change significantly in a 6" change of trim.

Relax Brent, lighten up. It's Superbowl Sunday.


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## Brent Swain

Bob, you have long done a great service to plastic boat owners, by designing some of the best plastic production boats , for those who simply want to buy a boat. You ( and Smack)do a great disservice to those preferring metal boats, by making statements based on rumours, old wives tales, and tales spread by the plastic boat industry, on a subject you know little about , and have little experience with. 
We would all be better off if you would stick to your area of expertise. Like the discussions on BD.net, I give almost all the experience based input on this subject, by anyone who has any extensive hands on experience on this subject. Like BD.net , those who know very little about the subject have tried to take over the discussion. When I asked who there had any cruising experience in a steel boat, only one (I besides me ), mentioned limited coastal cruising in a metal boat. Only one had any extensive metal boat building experience (and had built frameless metal boats ) One was starting his first ever metal boat ( and became an instant expert) and the others had zero experience in metal boats, while claiming to know more about them than someone who had built dozens of them, over decades, and who had crossed the Pacific in one many times .

You are right Bob, the lbs per inch immersion goes up as she sinks, less in a boat with short overhangs than on one with long overhangs.
Quality in design can only come from someone with experience in the material being used. You have plenty in plastic but little in steel . You'd be the best source for info on plastic ,and one of the worst for info on steel.
Super bowl? Who cares !
Suns coming out, a good westerly rising, and forecast to last. Time to go cruising!


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## bobperry

Brent:
You are befuddled again. I have never made a claim to being an expert is steel construction. You are going to have to produce that exact quote and stop making things up again.

But this thread is"pros and cons" and I think my work shows the "cons" pretty well. Especially when we are looking at your boats.

I also have published some of my aluminum boats here and I have no problem at all with alloy boats.

It seems to me that you spend way too much time attacking other peopple because there is very little postive you can say about your own boats other then they are durable and cheap. Perhaps if you spent more time on the pros of your boats and less time mounting attacks on those who disagree with you there might be more traction for your ideas here. But most of your posts are bitter blather.

Go Seahawks!
Just to rub some salt into that never healing wound, here's an alu 65'er I did:


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## Brent Swain

Bob
Your Comox friend can stroll down the dock and confirm how far Silas Crosby has risen since being emptied out , along with waterline length and beam, which should let you check the chart for lbs per inch immersion.
If you took all the gear out of a boat which has been cruised for a while, and put it on the dock, you would swear there is no way all that stuff would ever fit in that boat.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> People building my boats from my plans and book ,and Alex's video, have had no problem building, and have said it is *the easiest boat to build they have ever built.*


Finally! Some good advice for the wannabe cruiser from Brent himself!

So if you look back in the thread, and add the above, here is what Brent Swain advises the cruiser wannabe (which I totally agree with):

1. Fiberglass boats are the best value for those first-timers who just want to get out and see what cruising is all about - instead of spending years and tens of thousands trying to build a boat and missing out on all that cruising.

2. After you've cruised said fiberglass boat around for a few years - if you find yourself wanting to go sailing in ice, or growing more and more paranoid about Fukushima debris, or just want to stop worrying about running aground and hitting other boats, a steel boat like a BS Special is probably a pretty good boat for you. (Find a used one - they are insanely cheap.)

3. If you do actually decide to build a BS Yacht for yourself - _*MAKE SURE that it is not your first boat to build*_ (see above quote). Build a few other types first - THEN "Give The BS Yacht A Shot!" (the new tagline).

(Otherwise, you're screwed - and will have a rusty hulk on stands in your backyard until your grandchildren are forced to deal with it upon your sad demise.)


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> You ( and Smack)do a great disservice to those preferring metal boats, by making statements based on rumours, old wives tales, and tales spread by the plastic boat industry...


Otherwise known as "math".


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## bobperry

Brent:
I believe you on the 6". I have zero interest in having it measured. You should be easily able to provide the numbers. But I suspect you cannot. I can do it for my designs with a push of a computer button. But then I have real hull lines.

I find 6,000 lbs. hard to imagine on a boat that size. But I'm not doubting it.

Denda:
I am getting you an answer on your winch question. Fact is I just don't know. I have emailed Kim for an answer.

Funny day ha ha.
Two boats for sale, one on Youtube a Tartan 37 " A classic Bob Perry design". It's an S&S design folks!
The other boat a 39' Perry/Benford" design with my name all over the Craigslist add. I have zero to do with it.
Maybe I did do that mystery alu 28'er BS talks about. Seems my name adds "appeal".


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Time to go cruising!


Judging by your bitterness, your anger, your lack of friends, your being isolated on a small steel sailboat in the same area all year long...

*"Cruising" *


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## desert rat

smack one of your better efforts. Has a level of subtly as well as considerable 60's class.


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## jak3b

There was a time I was interested in building my own boat and doing the world cruising lifestyle thing but that time has passed. The Swainiac has cured me of all desire to build an Origami boat with his expansive attitude and salty charm.I love sailing though,I have done it all my life and will continue to do so till I physicaly can not.Of that I am sure.When I was a young un' I wanted to be Joshua Slocum or Bernard Moitessier and roam the oceans alone in my own boat that I built with my own hands.A solitary existance.I like people though.I get along with them.They are fun.City life can be fun to.I like all that his has to offer.I found that a balanced life is much more rewarding.I find long distance travel alot of fun in a jet.I can go any where in the world in about 24 hours or less.Stay in a nice hotel and eat good food I didnt have to cook.I get paid to work on boats,I like it,As far as materials I prefer to work with wood because it is a pleasent medium to work in.It smells good,Its beautiful.Not that it is 'better'.Everything has its place.Its all good in the long run.Something The Swainiac cant seem to wrap his mind around.


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## smackdaddy

^^^^This!


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## bobperry

Hey Jak:
Do you know these guys:
http://classics.robb...eubau/index.php

They do some exquisite work in wood.


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## SloopJonB

jak3b said:


> I find long distance travel a lot of fun in a jet.


Agree completely with your post except this ^ bit.

It used to be fun & exciting. I used to like it so much that I would go out to the airport periodically just to have a drink and soak in the energy of the place.

It's all been spoiled by all the fake security procedures and the cattle car interiors of the planes. It gets worse every time I fly it seems. Now it's just an endurance test.

There was a great bit on the old Dharma & Greg comedy. Greg's father was mega rich and Dharma's father was an old hippy. They were traveling on the same plane - one in first (or "ruling class") and one in economy. Greg's dad decided to go back and talk to her dad. He goes through the curtain and you hear him say;

*"My God, they pack you people in like sardines back here".* :laugher

I guess I need to travel in ruling class from now on.


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## bobperry

I make it very clear with my clients that I'm just too tall to fly "coach". For me it's painful.
But first class ain't what it used to be either. I can remember them carving tenderloin roast beef from a cart next to the seat on one flight to Paris. Now the big difference between coach and first food service is that you get s.s. knives and forks in first.

I used to enjoy flying too. But the novelty wore off.


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## jak3b

bobperry said:


> Hey Jak:
> Do you know these guys:
> http://classics.robb...eubau/index.php
> 
> They do some exquisite work in wood.


Whats that link again Bob?,I'll check it out.


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## jak3b

SloopJonB said:


> Agree completely with your post except this ^ bit.
> 
> It used to be fun & exciting. I used to like it so much that I would go out to the airport periodically just to have a drink and soak in the energy of the place.
> 
> It's all been spoiled by all the fake security procedures and the cattle car interiors of the planes. It gets worse every time I fly it seems. Now it's just an endurance test.
> 
> There was a great bit on the old Dharma & Greg comedy. Greg's father was mega rich and Dharma's father was an old hippy. They were traveling on the same plane - one in first (or "ruling class") and one in economy. Greg's dad decided to go back and talk to her dad. He goes through the curtain and you hear him say;
> 
> *"My God, they pack you people in like sardines back here".* :laugher
> 
> I guess I need to travel in ruling class from now on.


Yup this is true. I have had good experiences with Jet Blue and Virgin America flying coast to coast.Great non-stops, no frills,but great staff,on time service and very clean, new planes. When I travel to Asia I fly on Eva Air in the deluxe class, Its a business class seat and leg room with coach service.I flew to Asia on North West once and vowed I would swim there rather than fly them again.And shudder to think!, thay are using plastic in building planes!.What if some fukushima debris goes airborn???????


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## jak3b

bobperry said:


> I make it very clear with my clients that I'm just too tall to fly "coach". For me it's painful.
> But first class ain't what it used to be either. I can remember them carving tenderloin roast beef from a cart next to the seat on one flight to Paris. Now the big difference between coach and first food service is that you get s.s. knives and forks in first.
> 
> I used to enjoy flying too. But the novelty wore off.


Yup, dont really enjoy the actual flying part and the airport hassles myself but I like walking out my door and withen 24 hours I can be in Bangkok.


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## bobperry

I love climbing off a plane in a place where they speak a different language.

Jak:
Did that link work?


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## bobperry

Denda:
Kim says he can sail for a week without recharging the batteries. He had the batteries in his garage and decided he might as well use them.


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## djodenda

bobperry said:


> Denda:
> Kim says he can sail for a week without recharging the batteries. He had the batteries in his garage and decided he might as well use them.


Thanks, Kim and Bob...


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## bobperry

David:
That's 2 8d's and 2 4 d's.

Oh yeah, Go Seahawks!
It's looking very good at half time. Even my wife is watching.


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## SloopJonB

Just saw it on a restaurant TV near the end of 3rd, 36-0.

Total walkover. Why can't Colorado play in the cold?


----------



## MikeJohns

Metal boats are designed to the metals fatigue strength which is considerably lower than the metals ultimate strength. That gives a huge factor of safety for the odd encounter with the things you really don't want to encounter I think that's real insurance.

Like this whale collision with a difference off Cape Town from memory. Any of the lightweight composite would have had their hulls seriously 'compromised' by a lively whale broaching right onto the boat. It dismasted this steel sailboat but didn't effect the hull and they made it back to the marina.

Yet another sailboat hit beam on by a ship posted here: Pros and cons of steel boats

Although it's a pretty rare event it speaks volumes about the real benefit of steel (and alloy) which is the reserve strength of metal boats. 
With Aluminium alloy hulls you can have both lightweight and a large reserve strength.


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## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> Notice Bob states that " it changes as the boat heels and that 's what creates the righting arm. It is always moving when the boat is moving."
> When I said the same thing on BD.net, I was called a liar. No one else claimed it to be accurate .


No you weren't called a liar, you always liken being corrected to being called a liar. You didn't understand the nature of stability and seems fro your posts on this thread that you still don't.



Brent Swain said:


> ........With my 220 lbs on the rail, it heeled 1 inch. Now try that on any of the 36 footers around you ,and see how far 220 lbs makes it heel, for a comparison ...........


Interestingly it's a common complaint from owners of your design that they are very tender, can't stand up to much sail and have to reef early. Any performance ULDB foam core composite 36 footer will be considerably more 'powerful' ie stand up to it's sail better.

Have you performed an inclining test yet on any of your designs? Aren't you itching to know where the real centre of Gravity is so you can give your customers an accurate stability estimate? maybe even a Dellenbaugh angle ?

I like the Dellenbaugh angle, it speaks volumes.


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## blt2ski

After all these years, winning tickets from selling subscriptions for my times routes. Catching a 255 with a friend, riding it to the dome....watching the sea chickens get clobbered sometimes, altho usually entertaining..... The sea chickens finally won the BIG one! still in shock. But liking it!

Marty


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## jak3b

Nice job Seattle!. Bob that link didnt work, it looks like it got truncated.


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## outbound

The depreciation of fe boats has been commented on earlier in this thread. Given Brent reports of time and money spent have been questioned have kept an eye out for other information. In this months bws an waterline is asking mid 300s.given new they are around 1m.one wonders if the lost is so severe across the board for metal boats including aluminium.


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## bobperry

Jak:
Try this:
http://robbeberking....html?no_cache=1


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## jak3b

bobperry said:


> Jak:
> Try this:
> http://robbeberking....html?no_cache=1


Got it,.....Wow;-)


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## bobperry

Out:
I agree. There seems to be a pervading lack of confidence in metals boats. This is partly due, I think, to lack of knowledge on the buyer's part and where steel is concerned the general ( not Waterline) crude nature of the boats. If the buyer has come into sailing thru the Catalina, Beneteau type avenue he is most probably not going to be interested in a BS type boat. GRP is so stable a material . I think alu scares people.

Jak:
I thought you would like that. Somebody has a lot of money!


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## Jeff_H

MikeJohns said:


> Metal boats are designed to the metals fatigue strength which is considerably lower than the metals ultimate strength. That gives a huge factor of safety for the odd encounter with the things you really don't want to encounter I think that's real insurance.
> 
> Like this whale collision with a difference off Cape Town from memory. Any of the lightweight composite would have had their hulls seriously 'compromised' by a lively whale broaching right onto the boat. It dismasted this steel sailboat but didn't effect the hull and they made it back to the marina.
> 
> Yet another sailboat hit beam on by a ship posted here: Pros and cons of steel boats
> 
> Although it's a pretty rare event it speaks volumes about the real benefit of steel (and alloy) which is the reserve strength of metal boats.
> With Aluminium alloy hulls you can have both lightweight and a large reserve strength.


While I completely agree with your post, I would point out the implication in the phrase "lightweight composite". Often these types of discussions compare a typical steel boat, to a typical production fiberglass boat, and in that comparison the composite boat would clearly not withstand the impact in question.

But it should be pointed out, that if the primary concern is about impact resistance, in a comparison to an *equal weight*, properly engineered composite or sheathed cold molded wooden boat of the same weight, the composite or CM wood boat would have a much higher impact resistance than the steel boat.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## bobperry

Right Jeff but who in their right mind would build a composite boat to the same shell weight as a steel boat? But I see your point.


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## smackdaddy

Jeff_H said:


> But it should be pointed out, that if the primary concern is about impact resistance, in a comparison to an *equal weight*, properly engineered composite or sheathed cold molded wooden boat of the same weight, the composite or CM wood boat would have a much higher impact resistance than the steel boat.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jeff


Easy Jeff. You're going to confuse Brent again. You know he'll come back with..



> "And Jeff calls me a llama then goes on to say that composite boats have to be so thick that the weight equals steel before it can withstand Fukushima Debris! Ya sure! Or that the steel on a boat has to be so thin that it weighs the same as carbon fiber or fir to make the test fair! Ya sure! What do you think of Jeff's credibility now?
> 
> A friend from Cabo once asked me to prove how tough my boat was. So I hit it with a sledgehammer at the waterline. It dented the hell out of my hull but it didn't sink it. Then I walked over to a Robert Perry design sitting in her slip at the dock and I hit it with the sledge hammer at the waterline. There were immediately a few cracks in the gelcoat!!! So I hit it like 200 more times, then had my friend hit it for another couple of hours in exactly the same place and we finally sunk that flimsy thing. My friend was impressed with my boat - until he realized it was his boat we just sunk. What do you think of Perry's credibility now?"


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## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> Right Jeff but who in their right mind would build a composite boat to the same shell weight as a steel boat? But I see your point.


Some one whose main concern in life is about having their boat damaged by Fukashima debris? As you know better than I, if someone's main concern is about hitting something immovable, or being hit by something that is unstoppable, from an engineering point of view, properly engineered composite or sheathed cold molded hull with an equal stopping power would be lighter than an equal strength steel hull, or by the same token, if, of equal weight, the properly engineered composite or sheathed cold molded hull would be considerably stronger in impact than the steel hull.

Jeff


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## bobperry

I don't give a Fukashima. We've had some 13' tides in the last few days and my bay is litterred with logs. I have enough debris without Fukashima. Some of the logs are 50' long and over 24" in dia.


----------



## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> I don't give a Fukashima. We've had some 13' tides in the last few days and my bay is litterred with logs. I have enough debris without Fukashima. Some of the logs are 50' long and over 24" in dia.


Gosh- Logs that are 50' long and over 24" in dia. Free lumber. Its like Brent said, there is no cheaper way to build a boat than using salvaged materials. I smell a wooden boat in the offing.


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## SloopJonB

One of those floating vertically with only a few inches showing above the surface (deadhead) will give any Fukushima debris a run for its money.


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## blt2ski

Probably some doug fir, hemlock, true fir and some western red cedar to boot on that thar shore! All you need is a way to salvage, and cut the wood up. Probably already dried up per say, so should not be too much shrinkage once cut........

Marty


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## bobperry

"Probably some doug fir, hemlock, true fir and some western red cedar to boot on that thar shore! All you need is a way to salvage, and cut the wood up. Probably already dried up per say, so should not be too much shrinkage once cut........"

Then what?
Can I origami that?


----------



## blt2ski

I think you can orgami it. But you would need to pulp it first, make it into some paper, then you can orgami it! or some such thing.....or strip cut the cedar, um......epoxy coat the out and insides.......um.....then install stuff inside and out, and you have a francess leer some such sliver'ish type name! 

That is my story, and I am sticken to it!

marty


----------



## knuterikt

Making hole in GRP hull..
Look at the first 1 minute of this video 

Yachting Monthly's Crash Test Boat is holed Part 1 - YouTube


----------



## jak3b

bobperry said:


> Out:
> I agree. There seems to be a pervading lack of confidence in metals boats. This is partly due, I think, to lack of knowledge on the buyer's part and where steel is concerned the general ( not Waterline) crude nature of the boats. If the buyer has come into sailing thru the Catalina, Beneteau type avenue he is most probably not going to be interested in a BS type boat. GRP is so stable a material . I think alu scares people.
> 
> Jak:
> I thought you would like that. Somebody has a lot of money!


Amen there Bob.It probably takes as much labor to finish to that degree as does to build the initial structure.That level of perfection aint cheap;-)


----------



## bobperry

Quiet time contemplating a job well done.


----------



## Classic30

bobperry said:


> Quiet time contemplating a job well done.


Given she's still up in the air in that pic... does she float to her lines, Bob?!?


----------



## bobperry

Classic:
Yes, it floats just about perfect. We are about 600 lbs light yet. I forget the exact number. But we have no sails, no fluids and a few interior finishing touches to complete yet. I thought I posted the flotation data here alst week after the launch. We are .226 degrees bow down but tankage will correct that. But this was no surprise as we had stuck the boat in the water two months ago briefly to check. But that was sans rig.


----------



## Classic30

bobperry said:


> Classic:
> Yes, it floats just about perfect. We are about 600 lbs light yet. I forget the exact number. But we have no sails, no fluids and a few interior finishing touches to complete yet. I thought I posted the flotation data here alst week after the launch. We are .226 degrees bow down but tankage will correct that. But this was no surprise as we had stuck the boat in the water two months ago briefly to check. But that was sans rig.


Sorry, I missed the floatation data - but numbers are a little meaningless without the rig and engine in. Light is good given it isn't hard to put 600lbs on an empty boat.

Congratulations on another job well done, Bob! 

Now to see how she sails..


----------



## bobperry

No, not so Classic.
Engine was in and we had good numbers for other weights of missing gear. Kim and I were not making this up as we went along. We had been tracking weights for two years.


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## Classic30

bobperry said:


> No, not so Classic.
> Engine was in and we had good numbers for other weights of missing gear. Kim and I were not making this up as we went along. We had been tracking weights for two years.


Wow!! That's certainly the precision way to go.. 

Nobody worried about weight too much on the only builds I've been involved in - but then having to shift an engine a few inches one way or the other to get the boat onto her lines wasn't fun either.


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## kimbottles

Not much more to put in her, remember she is just a daysailor/weekender.


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## bobperry

Classic:
I always worry about weight. But we had some very good engineering help on this project and Kim was adamant about weighing everything that went into the boat. He's a CPA, I think he likes spread sheets.


----------



## Classic30

kimbottles said:


> Not much more to put in her, remember she is just a daysailor/weekender.


Let's see: I'm guessing you'll have beer.. a few passengers (live ballast) along for the ride.. several bags of ice.. more beer..


----------



## kimbottles

Bob is being modest, he is a wiz at weight studies. We weighed almost everything that went into the boat and Bob's original study was just about spot on. She is currently about a quarter degree down by the bow which will be perfect when we have crew in the cockpit and fuel in the fuel tank under the cockpit.


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## bobperry

"A quarter of a degree down in ther bow."
No, no, no!

It's .226 of a degree.


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## kimbottles

sorry; .226 of a degree.


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## SloopJonB

Recognize this?

40 ft offshore boat STEEL HULL SHELL

Another dream dies.


----------



## outbound

So - at this point in time if you wanted new construction in Fe and done in the US/Canada where would you go? Both to design and build the vessel. Assume 40-50' budget 1/2-1m. Request for proposal would be for fully found vessel truly ready to launch and sail.
Has the market spoken? and other than Waterline and possibly Kanter there are no other viable choices?


----------



## bobperry

Out:
Boy, I can't think of anyone. Maybe there is a fish boat builder somewhere but most of them work in alu now. If you want yacht quality work I think you are stumped. But if you end up in Holland could you please send me some Amphora pipe tobacco? Brown label.


----------



## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> Recognize this?
> 
> 40 ft offshore boat STEEL HULL SHELL
> 
> Another dream dies.












Ouch. Just more evidence of what we've been saying all along. Judging by this line in the advert:

"You can build your dream boat from this hull shell in short period of time."

It's gotta be a BS Yacht. Does ANYONE really believe this crap anymore?


----------



## Classic30

smackdaddy said:


> Ouch. Just more evidence of what we've been saying all along. Judging by this line in the advert:
> 
> "You can build your dream boat from this hull shell in short period of time."
> 
> It's gotta be a BS Yacht. Does ANYONE really believe this crap anymore?


What worried me was they don't seem to have worked out yet whether it was to be a sail-boat or a power-boat..

It's a steel MacGregor perhaps?!?


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## bobperry

The range of acceptable displacement is interesting.


----------



## jak3b

SloopJonB said:


> Recognize this?
> 
> 40 ft offshore boat STEEL HULL SHELL
> 
> Another dream dies.


Shes a bute'. A real reef smashing surf pounding survival machine of the highest order.It takes true genius and a strong 6th sense to envision such perfection.If used as a fish boat I bet the fish would just jump aboard of there own accord to be part of something so special. ..Or maybe not.


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## smackdaddy

Yeah - but look how fair that anvil is.


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## bobperry

ANVIL,,,,what a great name for a steel boat!

Spike at his anvil:


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## jak3b

Bob, Play any lap steel slide?,check these out;-)


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## bobperry

Jak:
No, not me. Saw Vince Gill on TV this morning with the steel player from the TIME JUMPERS. They were very, very good.

Funny axes!


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> So - at this point in time if you wanted new construction in Fe and done in the US/Canada where would you go? Both to design and build the vessel. Assume 40-50' budget 1/2-1m. Request for proposal would be for fully found vessel truly ready to launch and sail.
> Has the market spoken? and other than Waterline and possibly Kanter there are no other viable choices?


Most of my clients are people who want to build their own boats, and need a bit of help, so I work alongside them to get the boat to a stage where they feel they can handle the rest. Seascene was making enough money to hire Evan to do the works , and hire Tony to put the interior in. Evan is too bagged out to want to do that any more , but Haidan ([email protected]) could do it for you, with Tony Lyons putting the interior in.
That would cost a tiny fraction of what Waterline or Kanter would charge, and you would have a far better boat, with a fraction the bondo.


----------



## Brent Swain

When I sold my last boat in 87, the average time it took to sell a sailboat was two years, and boats were selling a lot faster then than they are now.
Winston just sold his 36 ft brentboat for $47K in two months after first advertising her. Silas Crosby just sold just as quickly. Viski ( another 36 ft brentboat) sold within days of putting her up for sale.
While plastic boats are being practically given away, those wanting something a bit tougher, in steel, don't have a lot of options.
A couple of summers ago, a young couple heading north to BC from Hawaii, in a wooden boat, disappeared without a trace. Would they have survived had they been in a steel cruising boat ? No guarantees ,but probably. The odds of them surviving would have been exponentially greater.


----------



## Brent Swain

On the last boat I built, I used a new idea for putting the bulkhead tabs in. I strung a piece of rigging wire from the waterline at the bow to the waterline at the stern tightened with a comealong . I measured the locations of the bulkheads along this wire and marked those points with masking tape. Then I taped a laser pointer to a square with masking tape , and with the laser at 90 degrees to the square, held lightly to the rigging wire at the marked points, I pointed out all the tab positions, and had a friend mark them on the hull. It was incredibly quick and simple, and extremely accurate. This could be easily used on any hull, made of any material .


----------



## outbound

Thanks for the thought Brent but I'm totally delighted with my boat . She is a treasure and I hope t sail her for many years on the oceans of the world. And as Bob has said your potential clients are a different breed. What I was trying to point out is at least in North America the yards that made steel boats have long since closed or are now constructing in Aluminum. The designs available in steel for yacht (not boat)construction below ~60' are quite limited as very few N.A.s are actively designing in steel. Even new boat designs in steel are unusual. I did a brief internet search which was negative. As you point out your designs are quite old and do not make use of design advances of the last several decades. Given new designs in aluminum still are drawn and executed in response to this shift in the market new construction both in North America and Europe in metal seems to be nearly exclusively in aluminum.
Outside your small group given the strength, ease, resale value and myriad new and traditional designs in tortured wood, cold molded, strip plank, and aluminum I am unaware of any new construction in steel even for the home builder in the size of your designs.
Could you please educate us to the total number of boats built to your designs? Could you please list the boats built to your designs in the last five years? If documented name and home port to confirm their existence?
Unfortunately unless you can do so it will be evident to all readers that what limited success you've had is now of historical interest only.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Ouch. Just more evidence of what we've been saying all along. Judging by this line in the advert:
> 
> "You can build your dream boat from this hull shell in short period of time."
> 
> It's gotta be a BS Yacht. Does ANYONE really believe this crap anymore?


Takes me 2 days to get a hull to that point. It takes 8 hours to put all the decks on. $9K for all the shell materials. Hose the dirt off, and that is one extremely fair hull. Can that be accomplished by a home builder, in that time frame, for that cost, using any other material or building method? Sure, a first time builder will take longer, but nowhere near as long as it would take him using any other method or material . What does it cost in materials to get a bare fibreglass hull together? Many times that! Ditto labour!

If you look at the mud on that hull, you will realize that that hull has been together for only a couple of days at the most. The rain hasn't had time to wash the ground mud off, which looks still damp, and the green grass suggests it is not a dry climate area. The primer looks brand new, no sign of rust anywhere. Even a first time builder would take no more than a few days to get a hull to that stage. What Smack is saying is "Five days building, and you are not painted and sailing yet?"
Does Smack ( who knows nothing about steel boat building) actually believe we are to dense to see this , or is Smack simply that dense himself? Remember, he is the guy who said it takes tens of thousands of dollars to buy the small supply of tools needed to build a hull like this. There are plenty of home built steel boats around. Ask any one of their builders how many tens of thousands of dollars worth of tools it took , and use that as a measure of Smacks credibility.
Great to see so many boats which I have not been aware of, being built. Proves my theory that the ones I am aware of is just the tip of the iceberg. Few have any further questions , my books and plans, and Alex's video, obviously giving them all the info they need.
A friends son, in Gibsons , bought a Valiant 40 for a song . I will soon have the price , as soon as get there. I'm currently storm bound, in a place where people who do things the other way, work year round in suburbia, just to spend a couple of weeks in.

" Fools and children should never be allowed to see a work of art incomplete! "

"Eliminating complexity is true genius"
Leonardo da Vinci


----------



## outbound

Please answer the above questions Brent. Surely any design if mistreated and not maintained with lose its value. Even your boats if allow to degrade from absence of zincs or maintenance of paint integrity will be bought only for their value in scrap. Don't dance- please answer the above questions- we are all waiting with great expectation. Surely you have records so doing so should not be a hardship.(pun intended)


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Thanks for the thought Brent but I'm totally delighted with my boat . She is a treasure and I hope t sail her for many years on the oceans of the world. And as Bob has said your potential clients are a different breed. What I was trying to point out is at least in North America the yards that made steel boats have long since closed or are now constructing in Aluminum. The designs available in steel for yacht (not boat)construction below ~60' are quite limited as very few N.A.s are actively designing in steel. Even new boat designs in steel are unusual. I did a brief internet search which was negative. As you point out your designs are quite old and do not make use of design advances of the last several decades. Given new designs in aluminum still are drawn and executed in response to this shift in the market new construction both in North America and Europe in metal seems to be nearly exclusively in aluminum.
> Outside your small group given the strength, ease, resale value and myriad new and traditional designs in tortured wood, cold molded, strip plank, and aluminum I am unaware of any new construction in steel even for the home builder in the size of your designs.
> Could you please educate us to the total number of boats built to your designs? Could you please list the boats built to your designs in the last five years? If documented name and home port to confirm their existence?
> Unfortunately unless you can do so it will be evident to all readers that what limited success you've had is now of historical interest only.


I have built 38, starting with my first design, a 29 footer named Simplicity, which I sailed to Tahiti and back in 77-78,then sold to Mike Ward who sailed her to Mexico, Hawaii and back to BC in 88-89. H elater built one of my 40 footers named Mishar which he sailed to New Zealand and back to BC. leaving in 99-. She is shown on the origamiboats site, along with my current 31 footer. My first steel boat was built traditionally ,over frames. My first origami boat was a 26 footer built in 1980. Then I built a 40 footer to a Brandlymeyer design ,named Fan Tan which is in False creek at the Co op marina . I built the first 36 , Mungo in 1981, then Quarante Dos , my first 31 which is in Olympia Wa. . Then Iron Butterfly, which was in the west Indies last count. Then Pearl Song , which was in Ganges harbour last I heard . Then Silver moon, currently in Alaska, then Eclectus ,last in SW England, then Ola Surerte ,in Sooke last I heard, then a 36 in Sidney then my current boat then Moon raven , in Courtenay, then Ullr, in New Zealand , then one in Campbell River, last seen in Squamish, then Shinola , last in Campbell river, Tagish in Royston, currently on a circumnavigation , probably in the west indies , then Silas Crosby, then there were the two I built in Cowichan Bay, Costa Vida and Mikes 36, which is in Fulford habour next to the govt dock, then Nordic, last seen in Guaymas, then one in Susalito, Currently in Hawaii, then one one in Frisco, then Exit, then one in Rochester Minesota, then Gords 40 in Richmond, then Victor's 36 in Combs ,then , hell I 'll have to check my list. Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Evan has done a similar number, Suzie has built several, as has Ken Splett, Peter Dirst, etc. Haidan , Sarra and Shawn have just done a 36 near Campbell River in the last couple of months, John Olson did one or more in England .
I don't think you can disinvent a way to get a steel shell together in 1/10th the time it takes using outdated "imitation wooden boatbuilding "methods, with far better results. Once the cat is out of the bag ,I don't think everyone will reject such an obviously superior way of doing things, and go back to accepting  grossly outdated and tedious boatbuilding methods. Some luddites no doubt will, but practical people are far more resourceful and intelligent than you give them credit for .
Friends cruising Mexico tell me they rarely see a cruising boat there which doesn't have a copy of my book aboard . Plans keep selling at the same rate they always have. Books ,plans, and Alex's video will be around a long time, as will my boats .
Aluminium has always been an option for my designs , but after over 3 decades ,I can still count on one hand the number which have been built in aluminium, and interest in doing so seems stuck in minimal at the moment . I see a lot of steel boats cruising , including new ones, but very few aluminium sailboats . The huge cost differential and the difficulty in finding effective antifouling which wont eat them, along with the difficulty, complexity and lack of reliability of welding aluminium, remain huge deterrents to aluminium as a practical choice for home builders, or any low cost, practical cruising boats. 
This is the first internet access I have had for a week. Should have a lot more in the next couple of weeks. Till then ,its time to go fire up the stove .


----------



## blt2ski

hmmmmmmmm

Thought I heard a voice, but alas, did not. Continue to ignore thread!

All is well in here. Run along now, nothing to see or hear!

Marty


----------



## bobperry

Had lots of fun this week.
My clinet was at the Pacific Seacraft yard last week. A change was made to the companionway ladder for the forward cockpit. Thi ladder change presented a headroom conflict. A change was needed to the hatch. The yard mocked up their idea. I toild them it stunk and I'd get them something. I have now worked on this for two days with my pal Jody. I have three more small the
3D model I want to try before finalizing it. But here is where we are now.

Very hard to do a detail this elegant in Brent's style of steel boat building.


----------



## outbound

Love the boom gallows and cute grab bars. ? How does that cockpit drain. Like what Carl did on mine . Two drains in front to tubes leading to sugar scoop above waterline and back open with a space even if weather boards put in. One of the few things I didn't like about my PSC was the time it took for the cockpit to drain a boarding sea. ? Did you put in 4 good sized drains to thru hulls?
Really like the hatches. Do some open forward and some aft so you can crack them a bit underway or on mooring with it raining?


----------



## bobperry

Out:
We have four big cockpit drains running down through the engine room, one of the things you can easily do on a center cockpit.

We have hatches opening just as I have designed them to open. Now it remains to be seen how the builder installs them. But we have so many hatches and big opening ports that even if he doesn't follow my drawing we will be fine.

As for your PSC. I was never a fan of Crealock's design work. I think you made a gigantic step moving to the Schumacher design. I'm very sure you have figured that out.

Here are a couple photos taken last week. I think they show adequately that ventilation and light will not be an issue on this boat. I am a huge advocate of as many opening ports as reasonable. Note the wine stowage under the pilot berth.



Finishing details are traditional American styles. No Euro here. I do not want the interior to look like my dentist's office.


----------



## bobperry

The hull looks quite fair.


----------



## rgp

Brent
Why did Winston sell his boat? 
Last time I ran into he and his wife they were filling Roscoe bay with the smell of fresh baked apple pie.


----------



## bobperry

I think this photo shows how fair our PSC hull is taken out of a CNC female mold.
Look at the reflection of the gang in the topsides.


----------



## Dean101

bobperry said:


> I think this photo shows how fair our PSC hull is taken out of a CNC female mold.
> Look at the reflection of the gang in the topsides.


That is SERIOUSLY impressive!!! Is that a mold in the background or another hull? I think I read somewhere that they mostly use female molds nowadays although I may have that confused. Do they put in the interiors and deck before they take the hull out of the mold?


----------



## bobperry

Dean:
Thanks.
Yes, that is one of the Pacific Seacraft molds they have in the shop.
With CNC you can cut a male plug or a female mold. The computer doesn't care. But with a female mold the finished exterior surface requires no filler or fairing. This means you save money, time and weight. For this job we did CNC female molds for hull and deck.

I forgot part of your question:
A lot of the major structure, engine etc. goes into the boat before the deck goes on. You delay putting the deck on until the last minute. But there comes a time when components have to be tied to the deck and so after some "dry fittings" the deck is attached to the hull.
This will vary from builder to builder. Take a look at a modern, low price, European boat or a Hunter and note how little of the interior actually comes in contact with the deck. This is done so virtually the entire interior can be built without the deck on. It's easier to work on the interior without a deck in place.


----------



## bobperry

Ballast!


----------



## Dean101

bobperry said:


> Dean:
> Thanks.
> Yes, that is one of the Pacific Seacraft molds they have in the shop.
> With CNC you can cut a male plug or a female mold. The computer doesn't care. But with a female mold the finished exterior surface requires no filler or fairing. This means you save money, time and weight. For this job we did CNC female molds for hull and deck.
> 
> I forgot part of your question:
> A lot of the major structure, engine etc. goes into the boat before the deck goes on. You delay putting the deck on until the last minute. But there comes a time when components have to be tied to the deck and so after some "dry fittings" the deck is attached to the hull.
> This will vary from builder to builder. *Take a look at a modern, low price, European boat or a Hunter and note how little of the interior actually comes in contact with the deck. This is done so virtually the entire interior can be built without the deck on.* It's easier to work on the interior without a deck in place.


I guess this would be a part of what people are talking about when they discuss beefing up a boat before using it for offshore sailing? Or maybe part of the reason why so many people think that the low end production boats are not good choices for long range cruising? I've read somewhere that liners are not a good thing because of lack of access to fittings, backing plates, and such. Do you think that most modern boat builders take that into consideration when using liners? I'm guessing this will also depend on the builder but I would think that most designers consider that in their efforts.


----------



## bobperry

Dean:
Not sure I can answer your question adequately. I just design boats. There are lots of experts on his site who can addresss your question is depth. Unfortunately none of them have ever designed a boat. But don't let that bother you. Jeffh is a very good resource.You can trust Jeff.

But you asked and since I am such a good mannerred guy I'll try to give you my answer.

Yes. The production boats today that are succeeding are doing so because they give you less for less. Liners make boats cheaper to build. Period. But a liner gets in the way of bonding bulkheads to the shell. With bulkheads sliding into slots in liners you can't bond the bulkhead to the shell. But they glue the liner down with smoosh so you're good to go.

Why are swept spreaders so popular on today's production boats?
Less chainplates. That's why. There are some performance advantages for sure. But performance is so far down the list of priorities for today's fashion driven fleet of production boats I'm sure cost is the driver. Hunter has been doing it for years. Well known Italian designerTommy Testa Dura has the latest Euro boat and uses swept spreaders. His newest boat will be a smash for the next three years.
I use swept spreaders. I like them.

Look at the current Euro trend for all lines coming aft to two winches on the cockpit coaming. They come through a big bank of clutches. It works sort of. All of a sudden you have a boat with only two winches. Why? Clutches are a hell of a lot cheaper than winches. Have you ever sailed short handed on a boat with a dedicated winch for each line? It's pure heaven. But it is expensive. So fashion will dictate fewer winches. But it's really cost.

Is this bad? No. Not really when you understand why it is being done. Why it's being sold as "in fashion". But in the end it is cost driven. Sure, you reduce the number of winches and you reduce weight so that's good for performance. But we are not talking about performance driven boats. Tommy Testa Dura is really not about performance. He's a fashion guy.

You want a strong hull? Look at how the best custom boats are built, IMOC boats, Volvo boats, my custom boats. Bulkheads go in the shell and are bonded to the inner skin on both sides. Floors and glassed in to support the keel loads. Longitudinals are glassed in to support the longitudinal loads. You can't do that with a liner.

I'm probably wrong. But that's what I think.

Of course I'm not serious. I'm just having fun. Sailing is about fun.
Serious fun for some of us.

I could go on but I have to vacuum.


----------



## outbound

If it's going to be your "last boat" liners will make it hard to service the boat. In steel access to the interior is also important. Brent reports he has found success with sprayed in place foam preventing the vessel from rusting from the inside out. I've seen steel boats where the inside was well coated in coal tar derivatives with design allowing ventilation and limberholes to bilges that were kept dry. They too were in excellent shape after decades of use. Advantage was the entire inside of the hull could be seen and accessed. Good design incorporates features that account for the need for work of modifications to occur in the future. My boat, Bob's Valiants and many other good boats have all furniture fully attached to the hull with bulkheads fully glassed to the hull and deck on both sides. No only does this add strength but it also makes for a very quite boat with no creaks and groans.

Looking at Brent's numbers best estimate ( had trouble following his post) is about 50 boats in about 34 years. This includes all sizes. For comparison there have been 53 Outbounds 44/46 (same hull) in about 12 years. There has been about one boat in the last five years for Brent. There have been at least 2 boats every year including one past for Outbound. Outbound is a very small semi-production builder. If one looks at one size for Valiant say the 40/42 there were over 350+ built from what sailboat data.com says. Valiant was a moderate sized production builder. 
These boats fill the needs of a specialized very small niche market. The market is similar in that the boats are built with the intention of seeing blue water. Even inside this niche new construction seems dominated by glass, aluminum and cold molded wood. At the price point comparable to Brent's boats it would seem the market has spoken suggesting a prospective owner would be better served buying an used high quality aluminum or grp yacht than a Brent boat.
Steel remains a viable choice especially for those with prior knowledge but pick up any BWS or Ocean Navigator or like rag. In spite Brent's doom and gloom the overwhelming number of vessels making huge passages and providing comfortable homes for decades are still and will continued to be in grp. 
The Valiants, mid 40s HRs, Outbounds have enjoyed very long production runs. For this use many sailors want a proven vessel, are very rarely buying their first boat and intend to hold on to the vessels for years and years. However, even in these category the boats are continuously modified as improvements in construction techniques and materials occur. Bob's one off's benefit from his years of design. Again from this he knows what works and what doesn't. Again it's the hidden construction procedures that make his boats the strong but elegant ladies they are. For both the production builders of this elk and Bob designs new technologies are continuously being incorporated. It seems Brent boats are aimed at a minimalist frame of mind and frozen in time.


----------



## bobperry

Wow, frozen in time.
I wish I could do that.
I'd go back 2.5 years and be happy for the rest of my life.


----------



## Dean101

Thanks for the response Bob! I realized you're a good mannered guy many posts back. I only asked out of curiosity because your photos brought to my mind some things I have read and how that applied to the discussions in Smack's thread about production boats. I'm glad to hear you concur with what I already thought of Jeff_H. 

I could very well be wrong in my thinking but I have always assumed that the builder built to the design drawings of the designer all the way down to minute details and that any changes would need approval from him/her. Hearing you comment occasionally on builders that changed things on you makes me think that maybe the two offices don't work as closely at times as I assumed. Or perhaps it is the owner that sometimes keeps one or the other out of the loop.

Maybe a builder will chime in to share perspectives from that angle?

Anyhow, thanks for the post.

Edit: Hey Outbound, thanks for the clarification. You posted as I was composing:


----------



## outbound

Bob- for a vessel that size are you forced to do two mirror image female molds? That keel is gorgeous. Looks totally fair. Wish I could work with you -you make dreams happen. Its wonderful PSC got this contract. Is a second hull under contract yet?


----------



## bobperry

No Out. No second hull yet. Thanks for the kind words. I'm a bear to work with.
We'd have a ball.

Dean:
I think you would be very surprised to learn just how little the "designer of record" has to do with the structure of most of these boats. I've been there many times. Once you hand over the drawings you lose control. any of these builders want hull lines, keel and rudder lines and a sail plan. They will take it from there.
I had zero to do with the structrures of all the Islander Yachts I did. They didn't even ask.

I know for a fact that Tommy Testa Dura only works that way. He has nothing at all to do with structural specifications. He's big on cushion colors and how many buttons to leave unbuttoned on your shirt.


----------



## Dean101

bobperry said:


> No Out. No second hull yet. Thanks for the kind words. I'm a bear to work with.
> We'd have a ball.
> 
> Dean:
> I think you would be very surprised to learn just how little the "designer of record" has to do with the structure of most of these boats. I've been there many times. Once you hand over the drawings you lose control. any of these builders want hull lines, keel and rudder lines and a sail plan. They will take it from there.
> I had zero to do with the structrures of all the Islander Yachts I did. They didn't even ask.
> 
> I know for a fact that Tommy Testa Dura only works that way. He has nothing at all to do with structural specifications. He's big on cushion colors and how many buttons to leave unbuttoned on your shirt.


Wow, I had no idea! I guess a lot just depends on the builder as to what the end product is. I really wouldn't have thought that.


----------



## Faster

That's it, Bob!

Out with the pool, in with the shop, build 'em right there under your supervision!


----------



## bobperry

I'll talk to you about it more tomorrow.
I am only speaking from my own experience.
But,,,I do have experience.
I am not just all talk.

I'll Skype Tommy Testa Dura in the morning. I'll get his take on this.


----------



## Brent Swain

rgp said:


> Brent
> Why did Winston sell his boat?
> Last time I ran into he and his wife they were filling Roscoe bay with the smell of fresh baked apple pie.


I was wondering that also, so I asked him. He is getting creaky and has health problems , which make sailing a bit tougher. He is planning to do something different, like drive across Canada slowly next summer.
His Daughter is cruising Mexico, and plans to leave her boat there for the coming summer, to go back and make further decisions in the fall.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Dean:
> Not sure I can answer your question adequately. I just design boats. There are lots of experts on his site who can addresss your question is depth. Unfortunately none of them have ever designed a boat. But don't let that bother you. Jeffh is a very good resource.You can trust Jeff.
> 
> But you asked and since I am such a good mannerred guy I'll try to give you my answer.
> 
> Yes. The production boats today that are succeeding are doing so because they give you less for less. Liners make boats cheaper to build. Period. But a liner gets in the way of bonding bulkheads to the shell. With bulkheads sliding into slots in liners you can't bond the bulkhead to the shell. But they glue the liner down with smoosh so you're good to go.
> 
> Why are swept spreaders so popular on today's production boats?
> Less chainplates. That's why. There are some performance advantages for sure. But performance is so far down the list of priorities for today's fashion driven fleet of production boats I'm sure cost is the driver. Hunter has been doing it for years. Well known Italian designerTommy Testa Dura has the latest Euro boat and uses swept spreaders. His newest boat will be a smash for the next three years.
> I use swept spreaders. I like them.
> 
> Look at the current Euro trend for all lines coming aft to two winches on the cockpit coaming. They come through a big bank of clutches. It works sort of. All of a sudden you have a boat with only two winches. Why? Clutches are a hell of a lot cheaper than winches. Have you ever sailed short handed on a boat with a dedicated winch for each line? It's pure heaven. But it is expensive. So fashion will dictate fewer winches. But it's really cost.
> 
> Is this bad? No. Not really when you understand why it is being done. Why it's being sold as "in fashion". But in the end it is cost driven. Sure, you reduce the number of winches and you reduce weight so that's good for performance. But we are not talking about performance driven boats. Tommy Testa Dura is really not about performance. He's a fashion guy.
> 
> You want a strong hull? Look at how the best custom boats are built, IMOC boats, Volvo boats, my custom boats. Bulkheads go in the shell and are bonded to the inner skin on both sides. Floors and glassed in to support the keel loads. Longitudinals are glassed in to support the longitudinal loads. You can't do that with a liner.
> 
> I'm probably wrong. But that's what I think.
> 
> Of course I'm not serious. I'm just having fun. Sailing is about fun.
> Serious fun for some of us.
> 
> I could go on but I have to vacuum.


There again is the advantage of the home built boat. As I have pointed out many times , additional improvements which would put a production builder out of business, are small change for a home builder. Who better to trust to build a boat ,than the guy who's life will depend on how well its put together?
When he eventually decides to sell her, you have a real gem, which no production builder could ever afford to build as well..

My Arco 40 sheet winches cost me $150 each. Absolutely nothing wrong with them, after nearly 2 decades of full time use. The last boat I built, the owner got his winches for frèe, along with mast , rig ,sheets, halyards, anchors, anchor rode, etc , etc. With those kinds of costs, one can put on as many winches as one pleases, with little added expense.
There is no way a production builder can do things that way.
With steel hulls, the bulkheads become structurally irrelevant, altho bolting them to welded in tabs is quick, easy, and super strong


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
Good to see you back. I was wondering where you had gone.

You are right. The home builder can concentrate his efforts on areas the production builder can't afford to waste time on. But the typical buyer of today's prodcution boat really doesn't know the difference. "Hey look! A shower!"


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Had lots of fun this week.
> My clinet was at the Pacific Seacraft yard last week. A change was made to the companionway ladder for the forward cockpit. Thi ladder change presented a headroom conflict. A change was needed to the hatch. The yard mocked up their idea. I toild them it stunk and I'd get them something. I have now worked on this for two days with my pal Jody. I have three more small the
> 3D model I want to try before finalizing it. But here is where we are now.
> 
> Very hard to do a detail this elegant in Brent's style of steel boat building.


You could easily do it that way, but why would you bother with such a hair brained arrangement anyway. Nothing leakier than a sliding hatch, submerged. Round the world racers gave up on them long ago, for the one piece door I use. Sliding hatches are a hair brained throwback.
I have replaced several of those decorative but impractical leaky teaky skylights, for simple, one piece aluminium hatches, lately. They are both for sale , for cheaper than building one.
I have never liked openings off the centreline where they go underwater in a surprise knockdown. Friends have taken huge amounts of water thru them that way.
Boom gallows are a great idea on any cruising boat. I wouldn't be without one.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Brent:
> Good to see you back. I was wondering where you had gone.
> 
> You are right. The home builder can concentrate his efforts on areas the production builder can't afford to waste time on. But the typical buyer of today's prodcution boat really doesn't know the difference. "Hey look! A shower!"


"I like the flowers on the table".


----------



## Brent Swain

knuterikt said:


> Making hole in GRP hull..
> Look at the first 1 minute of this video
> 
> Yachting Monthly's Crash Test Boat is holed Part 1 - YouTube


You could pound for a month on a 3/16th origami hull with those tools, without making much of an impression. Certainly without holing. It is, however, a huge improvement in strength, from wood.
I have heard of sails being dragged under a hull to stop the inflow of water ,with greater success than that shown here.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> With steel hulls, the bulkheads become structurally irrelevant...


Really. Where are your calculations on that?


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Quiet time contemplating a job well done.


Man that rudder looks sooo fragile!


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Out:
> I agree. There seems to be a pervading lack of confidence in metals boats. This is partly due, I think, to lack of knowledge on the buyer's part and where steel is concerned the general ( not Waterline) crude nature of the boats. If the buyer has come into sailing thru the Catalina, Beneteau type avenue he is most probably not going to be interested in a BS type boat. GRP is so stable a material . I think alu scares people.
> 
> Jak:
> I thought you would like that. Somebody has a lot of money!


When I was selling my last boat, a marine cop told me " Anyone who would buy a Catalina wouldn't buy your boat, and anyone who would want your boat would never buy a Catalina."
Those who have come into sailing in a good, well built steel cruising boat would never dream of buying anything as flimsy and fragile as a Catalina. Some have upgraded from Catalinas to my boats, and would never consider going back. Style over substance has lost its appeal, in their now, more experienced eyes.
As Malcolm ( who built Bobs Reliances for a while) always told his bluewater cruising classes "Don't buy a Catalina!" 
Aluminium is scary! Aluminium welds are never all that reliable, some are full of surprises, and when electrolysis happens on aluminium, it happens very rapidly, with no warning. Steel has far less problems.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Aluminium is scary! Aluminium welds are never all that reliable, some are full of surprises, and when electrolysis happens on aluminium, it happens very rapidly, with no warning.


Not nearly as scary as steel welds done by amateurs. You know, pretty much all BS Yachts?

(PS - I was happy to see that the Silas Crosby took my design advice over yours and had 36" life rails. It seems your customers regard my advice pretty highly - even when it's completely ridiculous.)


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> While I completely agree with your post, I would point out the implication in the phrase "lightweight composite". Often these types of discussions compare a typical steel boat, to a typical production fiberglass boat, and in that comparison the composite boat would clearly not withstand the impact in question.
> 
> But it should be pointed out, that if the primary concern is about impact resistance, in a comparison to an *equal weight*, properly engineered composite or sheathed cold molded wooden boat of the same weight, the composite or CM wood boat would have a much higher impact resistance than the steel boat.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jeff


Not a chance! Fir has a tensile and compression strength of 1500 PSI ,steel 60,000 PSI! A 30 calibre bullet which can shoot thru 23 inches of fir can barely make it thru 3/8th plate . 3/8th plate weighs 15.3 lbs per sq ft, 23 inch fir weighs 69 lbs per sq ft .


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> Some one whose main concern in life is about having their boat damaged by Fukashima debris? As you know better than I, if someone's main concern is about hitting something immovable, or being hit by something that is unstoppable, from an engineering point of view, properly engineered composite or sheathed cold molded hull with an equal stopping power would be lighter than an equal strength steel hull, or by the same token, if, of equal weight, the properly engineered composite or sheathed cold molded hull would be considerably stronger in impact than the steel hull.
> 
> Jeff


When you hit a wooden hull, it breaks , when you hit a steel hull, hard enough , it dents, and stretches , absorbing the impact, without breaking and letting the water in.


----------



## outbound

Brent hate to disappoint you but there are more new aluminum sailboats circumnavigating now than steel. Unreliable is clearly a bogus statement. Also try to find an used Dystra aluminum boat for sale. They are snapped up for at or near ask rapidly. Face it Brent you are living in the past. Just like your statements grp boats are leaky. Well made grp boats don't leak and poorly fitted steel boats do. You don't leak through solid decks and hull but rather fittings, ports and other piercings. Hull material is irrelevant.


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> Gosh- Logs that are 50' long and over 24" in dia. Free lumber. Its like Brent said, there is no cheaper way to build a boat than using salvaged materials. I smell a wooden boat in the offing.


USanians should follow the lead of their national symbol, the bald eagle, a super resourceful ,master scavenger, who can often be seen enjoying fine dining in garbage dumps. 
Definitely an "Opportunivore" of great skill and resourcefulness.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> The depreciation of fe boats has been commented on earlier in this thread. Given Brent reports of time and money spent have been questioned have kept an eye out for other information. In this months bws an waterline is asking mid 300s.given new they are around 1m.one wonders if the lost is so severe across the board for metal boats including aluminium.


Unlike plastic ,people who want nothing but a metal boat, have far fewer options to choose from, which makes them easier to sell, at a better price. The market for steel boats is simply not as saturated as it is for plastic boats.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Unlike plastic ,people who want nothing but a metal boat, have far fewer options to choose from, which makes them easier to sell, at a better price. The market for steel boats is simply not as saturated as it is for plastic boats.


But the prices for your boats have fallen through the floor. We've seen plenty of actual evidence of that with all the ads we linked to above. Are you simply ignoring these facts?


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Brent hate to disappoint you but there are more new aluminum sailboats circumnavigating now than steel. Unreliable is clearly a bogus statement. Also try to find an used Dystra aluminum boat for sale. They are snapped up for at or near ask rapidly. Face it Brent you are living in the past. Just like your statements grp boats are leaky. Well made grp boats don't leak and poorly fitted steel boats do. You don't leak through solid decks and hull but rather fittings, ports and other piercings. Hull material is irrelevant.


I have seen very few aluminum boats out cruising. They are rare.
GRP boats are all leaky, eventually. There is no bedding compound as reliable as simply welding gear down. Your claim that cleats , handrails, mooring bits, anchor winches, hatch hinges, stanchions , etc etc, bolted on a plastic deck can be as long term reliable and waterproof as welded down gear, is definitely bogus.
You truly live in a fantasy world of your imagination.


----------



## Brent Swain

jak3b said:


> There was a time I was interested in building my own boat and doing the world cruising lifestyle thing but that time has passed. The Swainiac has cured me of all desire to build an Origami boat with his expansive attitude and salty charm.I love sailing though,I have done it all my life and will continue to do so till I physicaly can not.Of that I am sure.When I was a young un' I wanted to be Joshua Slocum or Bernard Moitessier and roam the oceans alone in my own boat that I built with my own hands.A solitary existance.I like people though.I get along with them.They are fun.City life can be fun to.I like all that his has to offer.I found that a balanced life is much more rewarding.I find long distance travel alot of fun in a jet.I can go any where in the world in about 24 hours or less.Stay in a nice hotel and eat good food I didnt have to cook.I get paid to work on boats,I like it,As far as materials I prefer to work with wood because it is a pleasent medium to work in.It smells good,Its beautiful.Not that it is 'better'.Everything has its place.Its all good in the long run.Something The Swainiac cant seem to wrap his mind around.


I remember in the early 70s, being anchored in Robinsons Cove, Moorea. I was in my early 20s, Most other cruisers took into their 60s to get where I was in my early 20s. I figured I must have been doing something right, if 
I was where they spent an entire life to get to ( so briefly).I had a tourist brochure pinned to my bulkhead saying
"Tahiti special 7 days , $540 . I had left California months earlier with $350 , which took me to New Zealand. No way I would have been happy to work full time on the urban treadmill to spend 7 days on an island, then head back to work for the rest of the year. Bus loads of those who used the jet route cruised by. Do I believe they had more fun in 7 days than I had in 4 months ? Not a chance!
When the government pays me more money than I know what to do with, and it piles up, I will probably take jet plane trips to Cuba etc. I wont have to work the rest of the year. If I did, it still wouldn't be worth it.


----------



## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> ...........
> With steel hulls, the bulkheads become structurally irrelevant, ...


You can't generalize, it depends on the size and the design. European design practices often use smaller transverse primary frames with a secondary girder either side. The span of that girder is the run between bulkheads. Bulkheads compartmentalize a craft for flooding and fire control. over 50 feet and certainly by 60 feet it's very sensible to use bulkheads fore and aft of the engine bay, and one under the main mast and a maybe bulkhead fwd to isolate the forepeak.

With longitudinal primary stiffeners carried by secondary transverse frames the bulkhead is simply replaced with another transverse frame. But transverse frames are required to be stronger in way of the mast and that's where a bulkhead can be sensibly employed since it replaces both a compression post and a heavier more robust frame.


----------



## outbound

P.S. Brent- properly designed,flanged,bedded hull deck joints with close centers don't leak. They won't in the service life of the vessel even with our great,great,great grandchildren sailing on them. Bob's doing work for PSC now. Look at how the old California or newer n.carolina hull deck joints are put together . Never heard of a hull deck leak or with valiants or Morris or hinckley, nautor or outbound and on and on. Another bogus statement.
That's the problem. No one takes a hit on you. Steel boats have definite merits. You had a good idea thirty years ago. That was thirty years ago.Why do you make statements which are obviously untrue and depreciate others excellent work and the advances in sailboat development? Yes many old designs are still worth constructing as they meet the needs of a particular clientele. Want a small boat to cross oceans- a 28 foot Bristol Channel cutter is still a great choice and still in production. You harm yourself by stating obvious untruths. Accept Jeff is right. Strength for weight cf,fabric re inforced wood and even simple cold molded wood where plies are positioned in accordance to stresses are stronger then steel. Steel is homogeneous. These materials are not. That can be used to advantage. You only see the detriment.


----------



## Brent Swain

Yes bigger boats do need bulkheads, but not in the sizes I design, where they are structurally irrelevant. You can tell how much a boat is flexing by what it does to brittle fillers used on the interior. I have used oil based paint mixed with talc. Definitely not soft and flexible, yet after nearly 30 years of mostly full time cruising, including several Pacific crossings, it hasn't even cracked, which means almost zero movement. 
The longitudinal girders on a hard chine boat are the chines ,hull deck joint, centreline, and in the case of my boats, the tank top -hull seam, all far stronger than any other form of girders. Curves make them many times stronger that flat ,straight ones.
Structural calculations which don't take the curve into account are meaningless.

Plywoo0d is anything but homogenous. Each veneer only has significant strength in one direction. With three piles you can only have one running in any one direction. Thus only 1/3rd the thickness has any relevant strength. Any loads on it in any direction can only run along the grain of one veneer, running unavoidably ACROSS the grain of the other two.


----------



## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> Yes bigger boats do need bulkheads, but not in the sizes I design, where they are structurally irrelevant. You can tell how much a boat is flexing by what it does to brittle fillers used on the interior. I have used oil based paint mixed with talc. Definitely not soft and flexible, yet after nearly 30 years of mostly full time cruising, including several Pacific crossings, it hasn't even cracked, which means almost zero movement.
> The longitudinal girders on a hard chine boat are the chines ,hull deck joint, centreline, and in the case of my boats, the tank top -hull seam, all far stronger than any other form of girders. Curves make them many times stronger that flat ,straight ones.
> Structural calculations which don't take the curve into account are meaningless.


Many materials like your talc mixed with paint are more flexible than you think. Everything is flexible to some degree , its very likely that its more flexible that the steel which is very stiff. So probably not a great observation to use.

Deck edges and center-lines, keels and chines, coach roof sides.. whatever, are all longitudinal structures and are always considered so. Classification society rules even define how much of the chine you can count , what angle it needs to be to be considered structural and what the plate thickness should be in way of the chine if you use the chine as a longitudinal. All structural calculations take curvature into account. It's even in the class scantling calculations and has been for decades and you have had all this pointed out to you before.


----------



## SloopJonB

A family friend was famous for his hilarious malapropisms. One of his best combined _*barking up the wrong tree*_ with *flogging a dead horse* to come up with _*barking up a dead horses ass*_ to express the ultimate in futility.

Seems apropos in the case of trying to convince BS of any technical info.


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
CATARI does not have a production boat style hull to deck joint. It is bonded with glass inside and out as is FRANCIS LEE. So many of your comments about this are not applicable. Not that facts would ever bother you.

As for the new hatch detail. I understand it makes you cranky when faced with design work worlds beyond you capability. No, you can't do it at this level. You just don't have the chops. But no sense being bitter. Relax and enjoy.


As for FRANCIS LEE's rudder. No worries there. It is all carbon fibre, sleaved at the bearings. It is massively strong, will never rust, is monococque and weighs only 80 lbs..


----------



## outbound

Looked back at construction details. Believe my hull deck is glassed in as well. Only water I've ever seen in the boat is from the groove in the mast and that only when the boat is in a slip facing stern to the wind in the rain.
Unfortunately JonB is right. You just can't get Brent to face reality. It's psychotic to try. One of the definitions of psychosis is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. To get Brent to realize there are Yugos and Mercedes. Lots of 20 year old MBs on the road doing just fine.


----------



## bobperry

A glassed hull to deck joint is difficult to do and requires a lot of cosmentic work on the outside to hide the bonding layer. You could not do a production boat with this detail. But it is common on custom boats. It makes a great joint and proof again that Brent's constant lumping of all grp boats into one category is just plain ignorrant. But you have to give him credit. He does ignorrant very well.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> But you have to give him credit. He does ignorrant very well.


I totally agree. I have to admit, I'm in absolute awe of his ignorance. It's amazing.

Seriously, though, I'm _truly_ amazed that there are people out there who believe in him. I'm a member of his yahoo site and just have to shake my head. I guess it takes all kinds.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> A glassed hull to deck joint is difficult to do and requires a lot of cosmentic work on the outside to hide the bonding layer. You could not do a production boat with this detail. But it is common on custom boats. It makes a great joint and proof again that Brent's constant lumping of all grp boats into one category is just plain ignorrant. But you have to give him credit. He does ignorrant very well.


Spencers did it - it was their trademark. Generally, if not always, they were finished in a different colour than the hull & deck, a bit like a cove stripe - presumably to make the final finishing easier.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
I did not know that but now you mention it I do recall that edge look. When I was a kid I went to visit John Brandelmayer. I showed him my work. He was not impressed.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Jon:
> I did not know that but now you mention it I do recall that edge look. When I was a kid I went to visit John Brandelmayer. I showed him my work. He was not impressed.


I wouldn't worry about it Bob.  I was never much impressed with HIS design work. He built very good boats but his designs always looked to me like the carpenter designed houses I have alluded to in the past. Kind of handsome was about all one could say about the best of them.

If anyone reading this is uncertain of what I mean, compare a Norseman 447 to a Spencer 1330 - pretty similar boats in terms of basic design specs and build quality but the comparison ends there.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
I always liked the look of the big Spencer, a 52'er I think. But most of his work was far too bland for my taste.


----------



## bobperry

Playing with an idea to change the Dorade boxes from teak to white grp.


----------



## jak3b

If you did it in origami you wouldnt even think of something so silly as dead vegetation!.


----------



## Faster

Have to say, Bob, to my eye I don't think that side port in the fwd companionway hatch housing is working.. esp in this latest rendering. Maybe a clear slider and a 'skylight' in the cover would get you the light without the visual distraction?

Of course, feel free to ignore the nitpick....


----------



## bobperry

I love dead vegitation:
Carrots
peas
brocolli
Cauliflower
beans
spuds
Grapefruit
etc
etc
etc
I even like the fermented juice of dead vegitation


----------



## bobperry

Faster:
You are entitled to your opinion. In this case the client likes it. When you build yours you can delete it. I think I'm with you on that detail.

But I'm not done yet. I have an idea.


----------



## jak3b

bobperry said:


> Faster:
> You are entitled to your opinion. In this case the client likes it. When you build yours you can delete it. I think I'm with you on that detail.
> 
> But I'm not done yet. I have an idea.


I just got your book in the mail from Amazon.I dont know what you get per book but I am glad to support the cause.


----------



## bobperry

Hope you enjoy the book Jak. My royalties are small but I'm hoping to make a lot of money from selling the movie rights.


----------



## outbound

Bob what's he doing for sail handling? Don't see the spools in front of masts for leisure furlers.


----------



## Faster

bobperry said:


> Faster:
> You are entitled to your opinion.


..As are we all, whatever they may be worth...



> In this case the client likes it.


And of course, that's all that matters in the end



> When you build yours you can delete it.


And I would/will, thank you (running out to buy $50M lottomax ticket )



> I think I'm with you on that detail.


That's how I'd spell 'validation'.. Thanks!



> But I'm not done yet. I have an idea.


Waiting......


----------



## bobperry

Gee wilickers Faster. It's Saturday. I'm listening to the opera and watching women's curling. I have important things to do!

What I have in mind is exagerating the curvature to the window. It was looking too orthoginal. I'm going to look at it like this for a while. We tried an eyebrow around it but I did not care for that. Foir now I like this look. Now get your ass out the door and buy that lottery ticket. Buy two.


Out:
We are going with an Offshore Spars all carbon rig. It will be their version of Leisure Furl with all the goodies inside the boom. You won't see anything.


----------



## Faster

bobperry said:


> Gee wilickers Faster. It's Saturday. I'm listening to the opera and watching women's curling. I have important things to do!


Sorry Bob, should've typed 'waiting patiently'.. had no intention of disturbing your weekend....


----------



## bobperry

Faster:
Not sure. Maybe I have been doing the housework too long.
But there is something about an athletic woman, in tight pants, bent over, with a broom in her hands. " Here honey. Let me help you with that."

If it comes down to watching women's curling or men's figure skating I have to go with the women's curling.


----------



## Faster

bobperry said:


> If it comes down to watching women's curling or men's figure skating I have to go with the women's curling.


As a wise man once said (recently).....

I think I'm with you on that detail.


----------



## bobperry

Brent likes to bash grp boats, so I'll post this email for him. GRO to the rescue!

Hi Bob.
Thought you'd like to know that one of your boats, called SOLQUEST, in Tasmania saved the recently relaunched 1924 8 Metre called VARG from near certain demise last weekend at the Kettering Wooden Boat Regatta. I was aboard SOLQUEST with captain/owner Garth Wigston. He did a fantastic job and the boat performed well, like a boss. Hell-built-for-stout and a design that handled the short, 1.5 meter swell and up to 70 knots like a champ. I'm working on a story right now and not sure where I'll send it for publishing. Thanks to a strong boat, muscular Perkins 120, cool and courageous captain and competent crew, I was able to fly around the boat snapping photos with my iPhone. They turned out pretty good, considering.


----------



## Faster

Benesailor posted this new thread today.. with the links to the topic story (a fairly heavy displacement Brewer design done in Alu) and the subsequent links to the 'Restless' project, a large steel build it's an interesting comparison. Both back yard homebuilt over a period of time. Both varying degrees of astounding workmanship.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...elated/123177-amazing-homebuilt-sailboat.html


----------



## PCP

and what about two girls having built this steel one?:






Here the full story:


----------



## PCP

*Gilbert Caroff / Duflos*

Have also a look at this one: Not bad for amateurs:

Velero Simbad: El "Simbad"

Velero Simbad: Nueva web de Gilbert Caroff

I find the design more modern even if I don't like the hull. It is an old design from an old designer, Gilbert Caroff. He has much better than that. He is certainly among the ones that have more boats built by amateurs in steel and aluminum (also built professionally). I see lots of them cruising here, mostly home built.

GILBERT CAROFF-DUFLOS - ARCHITECTURE NAVALE

Hundreds of designed boats, sailed everywhere from the Arctic to the Antarctic. Several expedition sailboats.

A nicer one, the Chatam 43:

Chatam 43 voilier en acier a l´unite

Here the building of a Chatam 40. Amazing amateur boat building quality :

Sur la mer avec "boulal" - sortie du hangar et mise à l'eau | boulal.travelblog.fr

Sur la mer avec "boulal" - construction | boulal.travelblog.fr

Here a 37 in steel being built. Also a nice design:

Notre bateau

Another one:

Photos 1

And another one, a 33ft (alu):

Preparatifs

Some pictures:


----------



## Classic30

*Re: Gilbert Caroff / Duflos*



PCP said:


> Have also a look at this one: Not bad for amateurs:
> 
> Velero Simbad: El "Simbad"
> 
> Velero Simbad: Nueva web de Gilbert Caroff
> 
> I find the design more modern even if I don't like the hull. It is an old design from an old designer, Gilbert Caroff. He has much better than that. He is certainly among the ones that have more boats built by amateurs in steel and aluminum (also built professionally). I see lots of them cruising here, mostly home built.


Paulo, I notice your selection are all chine hulls?? ...but there is absolutely no reason a steel hull - even an amateur-built one - must have chines.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Gilbert Caroff / Duflos*



Classic30 said:


> Paulo, I notice your selection are all chine hulls?? ...but there is absolutely no reason a steel hull - even an amateur-built one - must have chines.


Not true at all. I posted several steel boats on this thread without chines but they were not home built. Fact is that chines make the building much easier for an amateur and many (relatively) modern designs for the amateur boat builder have chines because they make building easier.

The previous post is about one of the most popular European designers for steel amateur boat building Gilbert Caroff, an old and famous one. In this case chines have not to do with a better performance but regarding making building easier. Even professional boat builders like Alubat - OVNI (alu) use chines as a building technique to make the boats easier to build and therefore cheaper since they, if well designed they don't take too much performance on a sailingboat (the ones that are not used expressly to increase performance on an otherwise rounded hull).

More about Caroff in a thread in MetalBoatbuilding:

*"Gilbert Caroff (now semi-retired) has about 5000 boats of his design in the water, motor boats, canal boats and sailboats. He has made a speciality in exploratory and polar sailboats. He is well know for being the architect with the highest number of "civil" sailboat that have gone to the north pole, the antartic, and that have spend years in the ice and some even did the travel around the world through the north pole passages."*

MetalBoatbuilding.org ? View topic - Gilbert Caroff-Duflos

Here, have a good look at a nice one with a rounded steel one, a Radford design. The difference is that for doing it this way you need a much more complex steel structure before putting the plates in. I am sure Brent or Mike can explain this to you in a much better way.











The same hull in an aluminium version:

 

Regards

Paulo


----------



## outbound

I'm curious what multi chine and radius chine means for strength. Brent has made much of curved structures being stronger. While I was looking in to this in a more detailed way some years ago a local potential supplier told me if supplied with the right cad/cam computer files there would be no issue delivering plates pre primed ( if in steel or corten) ad pre cut and even with appropriate beveling for welding for either multi chine or radius chine. Similarly pre cut framing was a non issue. Therefore, I don't fully appreciate Paulo's statement about difficulty given these cutting files were being used commonly over a decade ago to guide the plasma cutter or other technique to cut the metal before delivery to the builder. Personally just think the radius chine boats are prettier.


----------



## bobperry

I had a builder of stewed boats tell me once that round bilge was easier than radiused chine. Not sure those are the same hulls Paulo posted. The alu one appears to have a chine aft. But it could just be a reflection I'm seeing. The steel boat certainly shows no chine.


----------



## PCP

No, I don't think so. Radiused chine is a method for using many small chines to make a hull that looks like a rounded hull and that is not the case with those hulls.

Article - Radius chine metal boat building



outbound said:


> ... Therefore, I don't fully appreciate Paulo's statement about difficulty given these cutting files were being used commonly over a decade ago to guide the plasma cutter or other technique to cut the metal before delivery to the builder. Personally just think the radius chine boats are prettier.


I did not state anything like that. Just said that most steel or aluminium home boat builders use chined hulls, meaning boat plans with chined hulls. I assume that it is due to being cheaper or easier because they certainly know a lot more than me about building a metal boat, costs and hardships.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## Classic30

PCP said:


> I did not state anything like that. Just said that most steel or aluminium home boat builders use chined hulls, meaning boat plans with chined hulls. I assume that it is due to being cheaper or easier because they certainly know a lot more than me about building a metal boat, costs and hardships.


Paulo, whilst I don't doubt that "most" home boat builders might choose chined hulls for exactly the same reason that someone building a plywood yacht might choose a chined hull, the 50' steel yacht my parents had made and two of the local steel yachts here whose owners I know built their own boats (perhaps "amateur-built" is a better term than "home-built" for these yachts because they were all built in steel fabrication shops, not someone's back yard) are round bilge... because it makes a better, faster, nicer-looking boat - not because it's easier or cheaper.

..but then there are many, many round-bilge aluminium cruising and racing yachts at my club including at least one Petersen 43 and the 12-metre yacht 'Kookaburra II'. Perhaps, over here, aluminium and steel are just another yacht building material - *it is not anything special*.


----------



## bobperry

I have to agree with Classic here. With a competant builder round bilge construction of steel or alu boats is just another day at the office. But home builders try to find the very easiest way to get the job done. They seldom have much experience and their choices are not always the best. You can build a nice chined boat. No problem with that. Chines are fine for some applications. If you think conic developement requires chines then go for it. But you boat will always look like an amateur effort. Some of the boats Paulo posted are far from fair.

In the end it's all about personal preference. I like them all when done well. I have no love affair with chines.


----------



## blt2ski

Classic,

Is the Peterson 43 a flat deck model? if so, many of those versions from 40-43 that Peterson designed, came in both GRP and Aluminum.

That version at your club, might also be known as a Serindipity 43 

Marty


----------



## Classic30

blt2ski said:


> Classic,
> 
> Is the Peterson 43 a flat deck model? if so, many of those versions from 40-43 that Peterson designed, came in both GRP and Aluminum.
> 
> That version at your club, might also be known as a Serindipity 43
> 
> Marty


Hi Marty, yep, it's the flat-deck model - in Aluminium - a yacht called 'Eneseay':










I crewed on her for a while before buying my current boat.

It had a hydraulic drive for the prop, which I also found interesting.


----------



## SloopJonB

Beautiful boat - I love those flush deck IOR boats.

From the days of "Hardware Wars" - more track than the Burlington Northern. It appears to only have 10 winches though - a bit skimpy for those days on anything bigger than a 1/2 Tonner.


----------



## Classic30

SloopJonB said:


> Beautiful boat - I love those flush deck IOR boats.
> 
> From the days of "Hardware Wars" - more track than the Burlington Northern. It appears to only have 10 winches though - a bit skimpy for those days on anything bigger than a 1/2 Tonner.


It was bought primarily for a Sydney-Hobart long, long ago in which it came - well, nowhere in particular. It has runners, which, in typical IOR boat fashion, are an absolute ***** to work. The dip-pole spinnaker setup was another huge PITA for a non-athlete..

..and yep, there's a track for every headsail. Sometimes we'd even switch tracks during a headsail change which made life interesting. Yep, I was happy to leave that boat. 

EDIT: Here's a MUCH, much, better IOR boat:










..none other than the amazing "Helsal II"... but that's getting way off topic.


----------



## PCP

*François Lucas*

I guess I was not clear. I was not talking about boats built in a shipyard but home built boats, literally on the backyard on a shed. But there are many that build them with chines on a shipyard and again, all OVNI line, that is hugely popular and are obviously built on a shipyard and very professionally have chines. That allows them to reduce costs and the price of the boats without a significant loss in performance.

Anyway it is more of a aesthetic preference than anything else. Some years ago I didn't like it...now I am used to them.

Since we are talking about amateur boat building and I believe that it is the main market for steel boats as well as for some aluminium ones I would like to post about some French NA that design for amateurs (and shipyards alike) mainly in Alu but also in steel. I believe it makes sense on this thread.

I will begin with François Lucas and his Hermine series, very popular among amateurs and that can also be built professionally:

naval architect nantes yacht designer racing sailing yacht cruising yacht motor boat workboat Réalisations - Designs Croisière

The Hermine 36 and the 40 are the more popular for amateur boat building:

The 36:


[







[/URL] 

The 40:






 

The 47:

  

Hermine 130

 

The Tp 44





and just for Classic 30 be satisfied let me put an Aluminium Lucas design without chines, even if most of his aluminium designs have chines. This one is not for amateur boat building but only for a professional shipyard.

The Aventurin 40





Regarding these boats the chines are more a convenience in what regards building easiness but as they are very well designed their negative influence in what regards boat performance are negligible, if any.

This was the NA that many years ago started the "fashion" of chines on open boats. When all boats have rounded hulls he designed a Plywood 40 class racer with chines, not vertical ones like the chines on the 60's but kind of modern ones, like they are used now. Everybody started to make jokes about the boat as a racing boat and about him regarding saying that the chines the way they were designed on the hull would better the performance. Well, the jokes stooped when the boat start winning races...and everybody went back to the drawing board again trying to understand why.


----------



## blt2ski

Cam,

There are at least two if not three of those here in Puget Sound. One raced seriously over the last 20 or so years. Depending upon who buys it, not sure if it will be raced still or not. 

I know of another that has been on the hard up in Port Townsend for what seems like eternity. at least a year and a half that I have been going up that way weekly. 

I am recalling another that was for sale in Anacortes.....

Had to look for lines to the first one, never did find them, but the reason for it, looks great none the less........

marty


----------



## SloopJonB

Those boats look a lot better in the photos than they do as drawings.


----------



## bobperry

Chine have been around forever. No single NA started the "fashion" of chines. Star Class has chines. I10 class has Chines, Snipes, Lightnings, OK donghjies, Gear 18', 210 class Thunderbirds, Black Soo, Skipjacks, all number of workboats all the way up to the Spencer designed RAGTIME. There is nothing new about chines. Maybe they are new to you Paulo but I sailed my first chine boat in 1962. It was Rhodes Penguin class and in 1962 it was a relatively old class.


----------



## PCP

Not again Bob. I am not talking about almost 90º chines that were used on the 60's or on the star class but regarding the *modern* use of chines that comes not from a building convenience regarding the material that was used to build the boats but from a performance perspective (on fiberglass or carbon boats). And I think that this was fully discussed already.

The Rhodes Penguin class was a wooden boat and chines were used as a convenience in the building process, one that would not have great negative influence on performance. Maybe you can tell us about your fiberglass or carbon boats with chines? On those chines don't come as a building convenience but are designed with performance in mind. That's what I was talking about regarding Lucas. His 40 class boat was a plywood one but after that chines in hulls become the norm on solo racing boats, from the mini to the Open 60's, in carbon and fiberglass boats.



PCP said:


> ....
> Regarding these boats the chines are more a convenience in what regards building easiness but as they are very well designed their negative influence in what regards boat performance are negligible, if any.
> 
> This was the NA that many years ago started the "fashion" of chines on open boats. When all boats have rounded hulls he designed a Plywood 40 class racer with chines, not vertical ones like the chines on the 60's but kind of modern ones, like they are used now. Everybody started to make jokes about the boat as a racing boat and about him regarding saying that the chines the way they were designed on the hull would better the performance. Well, the jokes stooped when the boat start winning races...and everybody went back to the drawing board again trying to understand why.


----------



## bobperry

Yes, again Paulo. No need to be snide.

I don't draw a line between chine boats. Some were designed with chines to facilitate building other boats have chines for performance reasons. I think we all understand that. As I have said all along chines can be very effective in the right application. Is that so difficult to undestand?


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## outbound

But there are some truly gorgeous pure cruising yachts in steel as well. Johnson Yachts in NZ has made quite a few- plasma cut, with rolled steel, no chines and pleasing to the eye. They build from Jay Benford or others plans. No reason you can't have a very handsome boat in steel.
Personally like the sterns on some of the Benford boats.


----------



## Brent Swain

*Re: François Lucas*



PCP said:


> I guess I was not clear. I was not talking about boats built in a shipyard but home built boats, literally on the backyard on a shed. But there are many that build them with chines on a shipyard and again, all OVNI line, that is hugely popular and are obviously built on a shipyard and very professionally have chines. That allows them to reduce costs and the price of the boats without a significant loss in performance.
> 
> Anyway it is more of a aesthetic preference than anything else. Some years ago I didn't like it...now I am used to them.
> 
> Since we are talking about amateur boat building and I believe that it is the main market for steel boats as well as for some aluminium ones I would like to post about some French NA that design for amateurs (and shipyards alike) mainly in Alu but also in steel. I believe it makes sense on this thread.
> 
> I will begin with François Lucas and his Hermine series, very popular among amateurs and that can also be built professionally:
> 
> naval architect nantes yacht designer racing sailing yacht cruising yacht motor boat workboat Réalisations - Designs Croisière
> 
> ........
> 
> Regarding these boats the chines are more a convenience in what regards building easiness but as they are very well designed their negative influence in what regards boat performance are negligible, if any.
> 
> This was the NA that many years ago started the "fashion" of chines on open boats. When all boats have rounded hulls he designed a Plywood 40 class racer with chines, not vertical ones like the chines on the 60's but kind of modern ones, like they are used now. Everybody started to make jokes about the boat as a racing boat and about him regarding saying that the chines the way they were designed on the hull would better the performance. Well, the jokes stooped when the boat start winning races...and everybody went back to the drawing board again trying to understand why.


Those wide sterns destroy directional stability, but twin rudders go a long way to making them far more controllable. Twin dagger boards in the stern, angled outwards at a similar angle, also work very well. They could be made out of squashed SS tubing ,their exits above the waterline, to minimize electrolysis.
Picture an anchor rode fouled on the aft end of one of those twin keels, with a strong beam wind, on a lee shore! There is no way you are going to get it unfouled. Cutting the anchor loose is your only option, something your mathematical calculations wont tell you about a keel shape. Only experience will tell you that, sometimes the hard way.
Excessive beam and shallow ballast mean an extremely low AVS. When those boats capsize, they stay capsized.


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## Brent Swain

With an inch and a half of sprayfoam in my boat, there is still a lot of space between the panelling and the foam. In the forepeak I filled it with canned foam , thru small holes drilled in the panelling, for more insulation. I plan to do the rest, over time . When you consider the temperature difference between the boiling hot coffee in a Styrofoam cup, and the temperature of the outside of the cup , such a thin layer of foam is a super insulator. Filling the space between panelling and foam can be a huge increase in insulation, at minimal cost. I am hoping to find an island source of "Tytan" foam , which I am told, is far more closed cell than most other brands. 
With plastic hulls with a liner , filling the space between the liner and hull with canned foam could be a huge improvement in comfort, in cold latitudes.


----------



## PCP

*Re: François Lucas*



Brent Swain said:


> ....
> Excessive beam and shallow ballast mean an extremely low AVS. When those boats capsize, they stay capsized.


Several people have told you again and again that the AVS has not to do with beam but with a lower CG and you don't know the ballast those boats have. Shallow ballast only means that it has to have more ballast to compensate. Those boats are certified as class A by the RCD and that means that they have at least a reasonable AVS, I would say between 110º and 125º.

Besides you seem to ignore everything about what the French call a "deriveur". Those boats have an outstanding dynamic stability and are know to be among the safest bluewater boats. They are the boats the French prefer as voyage boats and the French are among the ones that travel and circumnavigate more and know one or two things about the best boats to do it.

Jimmy Cornell after having circumnavigated the planet several times in different types of sailboats ended up buying one, that he considered the best bluewater boat he had ever sailed. He has another one being built for him, for another circumnavigation, this time by the Northwest passage.

This is the more famous Polar exploration and scientific research sailboat, Tara ( ex- Antarctica) , an aluminium "Deriveur" designed by Luc Bouvet and Olivier Petit 25 years ago. The boat has sailed extensively since then in many expeditions and is still in active service.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tara_(goélette)#Caract.C3.A9ristiques_techniques_de_Tara





Regards

Paulo


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## Brent Swain

Faster said:


> ..
> 
> And I would/will, thank you (running out to buy $50M lottomax ticket
> 
> ..


I enjoy enabling people to have a good boat, without having to win the lottery. Marine money grubbers call that" immoral!"


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> A glassed hull to deck joint is difficult to do and requires a lot of cosmentic work on the outside to hide the bonding layer. You could not do a production boat with this detail. But it is common on custom boats. It makes a great joint and proof again that Brent's constant lumping of all grp boats into one category is just plain ignorrant. But you have to give him credit. He does ignorrant very well.


Yes Batman , some plastic boats are much better than others. The Crealock 37 tried to do things properly in plastic, and the price tag came to over a quarter million dollars. Much greater strength and reliability in steel costs a fraction that amount.
Ignorant is trying to promote yourself and your plastic, on a subject like steel boats, which you know very little about.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Jon:
> I did not know that but now you mention it I do recall that edge look. When I was a kid I went to visit John Brandelmayer. I showed him my work. He was not impressed.


All human progress comes from challenging "The way things are always done." Without anyone having the huevos to do so, we would still be in the stone age.


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> I totally agree. I have to admit, I'm in absolute awe of his ignorance. It's amazing.
> 
> Seriously, though, I'm _truly_ amazed that there are people out there who believe in him. I'm a member of his yahoo site and just have to shake my head. I guess it takes all kinds.


"Ignorance" is someone with only Catalina and Hunter experience, trying to mislead people, by advising on steel offshore cruising boats, something he knows absolutely nothing about.

On the subject of this thread, STEEL SAILBOATS , "Ignorance" is someone who has absolutely zero experience in building , long term cruising in, maintaining long term , or designing in steel, yet who spouts misleading advice on the subject.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> I wouldn't worry about it Bob.  I was never much impressed with HIS design work. He built very good boats but his designs always looked to me like the carpenter designed houses I have alluded to in the past. Kind of handsome was about all one could say about the best of them.
> 
> If anyone reading this is uncertain of what I mean, compare a Norseman 447 to a Spencer 1330 - pretty similar boats in terms of basic design specs and build quality but the comparison ends there.


After building Bob's Reliance 37 , and being very disappointed with how they sailed, Malcolm Wilkinson bought the molds for the Spencers, and began building them, considering them far better cruising boats, after having sailed one from BC to New Zealand and back.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Playing with an idea to change the Dorade boxes from teak to white grp.


GRP is a far better material than teak. You could take a photo of a teak one, take it to the plastic guy and have him match the colour, and from 8 feet away you couldn't tell the difference.

What kind of price tag do you anticipate on that boat ?


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> I love dead vegitation:
> Carrots
> peas
> brocolli
> Cauliflower
> beans
> spuds
> Grapefruit
> etc
> etc
> etc
> I even like the fermented juice of dead vegitation


All excellent uses for dead vegetation. Just don't build your boats out of it.


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> But the prices for your boats have fallen through the floor. We've seen plenty of actual evidence of that with all the ads we linked to above. Are you simply ignoring these facts?


Prices for all boats have fallen thru the floor, far less so for my boats, than for stock plastic boats . Unlike plastic boats, no one is abandoning them in back waters, or deliberately sinking them , no one is trying to find other uses to get rid of them, such as using ground up fiberglass cruising boats for concrete reinforcement , no one is giving them away.


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## outbound

Gee Brent don't you even read and look at what Bob posts???? That PSC sure isn't a daysailor. It's clearly a beautiful, comfortable safe blue water cruiser as are myriad "plastic" boats. Instead of taking hits at people speak to the subject at hand. Convince me that going from my beautiful boat which sails circles around anything you've built, has a great ride, is wonderful to live in, is safe and strong is a poorer choice than your boats for a cruiser. I never have to worry about my hull. I can stay in just changing zincs as long as the bottom paint hold up. She has a layer true closed cell foam not needed structurally glassed in the inside of the hull and with a divinylcell cored deck your nonsense about condensation and heating/cooling is just bogus. You may realize by now I looked extensively into building in steel. After examining the pros/cons of various materials it came down to Al or grp as I could not tolerate the poor performance, maintenance requirements and poor resale value of building in steel. Yes 99.999% of shipping is in steel hulls but you need to provide some hard data beyond just your hearsay tales about these issues. I know steel boats lost to
fire- installation burned- boat basically meted inside out- not worth salvage
sinking- coating failed section of hull oil canned under stress boat sank
electrolysis- boat retired before expected service life don't worth replatng
I know of boats sold and owners going to glass or Al after finding performance so poor resulting expense of fuel s high that cruising was curtailed
More weight in the hull - less weight available for other things if one is to maintain displacement.
You talk in circles repeating how inexpensive your boats are. However you do not compare to other home methods such as modern wood. If expense is the issue buying a bare hull and outfitting it your self is better choice as you know its the huge hours doing the interior where the expense lies.
I have repetitively said steel is a great boat building material but still hold below 50-60' other materials make more sense.
P.S.- like most modern boats I have a watertight bulkhead forward and can navigate some so please don't repeat the diatribe about puncture resistance.


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Not nearly as scary as steel welds done by amateurs. You know, pretty much all BS Yachts?
> 
> (PS - I was happy to see that the Silas Crosby took my design advice over yours and had 36" life rails. It seems your customers regard my advice pretty highly - even when it's completely ridiculous.)


I put the lifelines on Silas Crosby. They are 34 inches off the decks . How high are the stock lifelines on your Catalina or your Hunter? 36 inches?
What crock!
Readers, go measure up a few, and base your judgement of Smacks credibility on that.
In over 40 years of mostly full time cruising, I have seen a lot of home built steel boats built and welded by amateurs, yet I have never seen or heard of a single steel weld ever having failed on any of them.

Smack knows absolutely nothing about steel, or steel boats, or welding them.


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Looked back at construction details. Believe my hull deck is glassed in as well. Only water I've ever seen in the boat is from the groove in the mast and that only when the boat is in a slip facing stern to the wind in the rain.
> Unfortunately JonB is right. You just can't get Brent to face reality. It's psychotic to try. One of the definitions of psychosis is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. To get Brent to realize there are Yugos and Mercedes. Lots of 20 year old MBs on the road doing just fine.


My boat, like many of my boats , is 30 years old and doing just fine , after many Pacific crossings and mostly full time cruising, while my critics keep saying it wont last . They have survived torture tests which would have demolished any plastic boat in minutes. That is reality . What my critics claim, has long been proven to be fantasy, having noting to do with reality.


----------



## outbound

Brent- there are Concordias in my area. G-d forbid older than you still sailing, gorgeous and standing up to all the north Atlantic hands out. BTW they are built in WOOD.
Point being we all agree boats in grp/wood/steel/AL can last longer than us if properly maintained. Somehow although no one is challenging this you continue to challenge this basic reality. You still have not spoken how you mitigate the basic failing of steel which is its weight. In hulls above 50-60' this is not a limiting determinate in performance or allocating of weight to stores/liquids or machinery nor is it too limiting in design. However, it is in smaller cruising boats. I am a critic of how you comport yourself in this forum but if you trouble yourself to read mine and others posts no where has limitation of service life of steel if properly constructed and maintained been impugned. Again speak to why a prospective buyer if looking for a small affordable boat would not be better served by the voyager40 project or buying a bare hull from Cape George or others and finishing it themselves. The Cape George vessels are yachts not boats with significant resale value.


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## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> I enjoy enabling people to have a good boat, without having to win the lottery. Marine money grubbers call that" immoral!"


Seems fair, since you seem to regard anyone with even a moderate level of wealth as "immoral".


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## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> What kind of price tag do you anticipate on that boat ?


I daresay more than the combined total of every boat you have ever built.


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## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> After building Bob's Reliance 37 , and being very disappointed with how they sailed, Malcolm Wilkinson bought the molds for the Spencers, and began building them, considering them far better cruising boats, after having sailed one from BC to New Zealand and back.


Which Spencer? The 1330? If so, hardly a valid comparison since it's about twice the size of the Reliance - I guess it WOULD be a nicer cruiser. Also, you seem to have overlooked my comment that the Spencers were very good boats, just lacking somewhat in the artistry department.

I also seriously doubt that a boat designed by Bob and built essentially no expense spared by Markos would disappoint anyone.

Maybe if they were looking for an entirely different type of boat, but not otherwise.

The reasons there were so few Reliance 37's built was that it was extremely expensive and there were business/partnership problems experienced by the promoters, not that it was a poor performer.


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## desert rat

This lifeline debate is annoying, to stop you from tipping overboard they should be above your center of gravity, your solar plexas. To me that seems impractical.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Ignorant is trying to promote yourself and your plastic, on a subject like steel boats, which you know very little about.


Brent, Bob "Batman" Perry has posted photos of metal boats he's designed (steel, aluminum, etc.). He obviously knows plenty about them.

Now speaking of _ignorance_ in these matters, how many plastic boats have you designed and built again? Oh, right, zero. So, by your own logic, why should anyone believe _anything_ you say about them?



Brent Swain said:


> All human progress comes from challenging "The way things are always done." Without anyone having the huevos to do so, we would still be in the stone age.


Yes - but what you're arguing is for us all to go back to the Bronze Age (because it's better than the Stone Age). Those aren't huevos. They're huevos revueltos.



Brent Swain said:


> Prices for all boats have fallen thru the floor, far less so for my boats, than for stock plastic boats . Unlike plastic boats, no one is abandoning them in back waters, or deliberately sinking them , no one is trying to find other uses to get rid of them, such as using ground up fiberglass cruising boats for concrete reinforcement , no one is giving them away.


Dude, as has been richly documented on this thread, your rusting hulls are littering so many backyards and barnyards across North America that it's plain sad. Far more of your "boats" seem to be rain catchments in the weeds than sailing vessels in the water. And as for prices falling through the floor, my flimsy plastic 1989 Hunter was (and still is) over 2X the market value of your many boats that aren't selling at all.



Brent Swain said:


> I put the lifelines on Silas Crosby. They are 34 inches off the decks .


Go to the Silas Crosby website and look at Steve's description of the boat.

http://silascrosby.com/sail/?page_id=17


> Life Railings : 36″ high,full perimeter , stainless steel - possibly the single most important safety item aboard.


You're wrong...again. He has WAY more long term cruising experience in miles/coverage in a BS Yacht than you do. And you're saying he doesn't know his own boat? Do you realize this is the second (maybe third*) time you've accused Steve of lying? This is your customer dude - who followed my "advice".

You just keep striking out bro.

(*You said he sold it for a huge pile of cash. Yet it's still being advertised for sale. Hmmm.)


----------



## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> Yes - but what you're arguing is for us all to go back to the Bronze Age (because it's better than the Stone Age).


The IRON age Smack, the IRON age - bronze is a bit "yachty" don't you think?


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## slap

outbound said:


> Brent- there are Concordias in my area. G-d forbid older than you still sailing, gorgeous and standing up to all the north Atlantic hands out. BTW they are built in WOOD.


And 102 of the 103 Concordias are still around. Not bad for boats 50+ years old.


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## slap

Brent Swain said:


> All human progress comes from challenging "The way things are always done." Without anyone having the huevos to do so, we would still be in the stone age.


Says the man with the "stone age" boat designs.


----------



## SloopJonB

slap said:


> Says the man with the "stone age" boat designs.


Damn it, they're IRON AGE - can't you people get that through your heads!


----------



## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> Damn it, they're IRON AGE - can't you people get that through your heads!


Actually, you may have a point:



> Hesiod finds himself in the Iron Age. During this age humans live an existence of toil and misery. Children dishonor their parents, brother fights with brother and the social contract between guest and host (xenia) is forgotten. During this age might makes right, and bad men use lies to be thought good. At the height of this age, humans no longer feel shame or indignation at wrongdoing; babies will be born with gray hair and the gods will have completely forsaken humanity: "there will be no help against evil."


Toil and misery. Definitely sounds like building a steel boat to me. Heh-heh.


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## SloopJonB

I thought *this *was the bit you'd use. 



> might makes right, and bad men use lies to be thought good.


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## Brent Swain

A friend compared older wooden boat to that old saying " This is EXACTLY the same axe my great grandfather used. Since then, it has had 5 new heads and 10 new handles."
Such is the case with most parts of very old wooden boats . You don't own one, they own you.


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## Brent Swain

My boats are being "BUILT' in backyards around the world . You have posted pictures of many I have been unaware of, more than you claim even exist . The last one shows not a speck of rust, being only days in construction. No boat is finished the day it is begun. Plastic boats are "Littering " the backyards and shops in which they are being built, around the world. Bob has posted many pictures of such boats "Littering "the shops in which they are being built.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> My boats are being "BUILT' in backyards around the world . You have posted pictures of many I have been unaware of, more than you claim even exist .


I've never made any claim as to how many of your boats exist. Lots of people have asked you how many - and you never have any idea. So that means one of two things..

1. You can't keep track of how many of your plans you've actually sold...which has to be pretty low judging by your continual lamenting of not having any money and looking forward to your pension so you can live large and easy.
2. People are just pirating your plans to save the hundreds of dollars for your outrageous fees - and putting that money into their boat. It's something you should be proud of. It's really just recycling.

Anyway, the real issue is how many of your boats are actually _completed and sailing_. That number's gotta be seriously low. LOTS of people start projects they never finish. For example...



Brent Swain said:


> The last one shows not a speck of rust, being only days in construction. No boat is finished the day it is begun. Plastic boats are "Littering " the backyards and shops in which they are being built, around the world. Bob has posted many pictures of such boats "Littering "the shops in which they are being built.


Actually, that ad shows how quickly one can realize they've made a huge mistake and want to cut losses as quickly as possible, get a plastic boat and go sailing. Remember, that hull should have come together in only _2-3 days_. So they apparently realized real quick that they wanted nothing more to do with a BS Yacht, and are willing to do anything to get out from under it. Sad really.

If BS Yachts are actually in such demand as you say, I'm unclear why that ad is still running...or Silas Crosby's...or...all the ones on YW...or...


----------



## outbound

Brent I actually know a fair number of the concordias you demean. You are right some have had amazing maintenance as the owners love their boats. Some are kept in bright and get the whole hull varnished yearly. But guess what Chuckles that's the original hull. Your nonsense about handles and heads is just nonsense.
Have you owned a fine wooden boat? Same crap you throw at us we can pick up and throw it back.
Btw if you want a truly forever low maintenance hull for the home builder look at wood epoxy. They will be still sailing when you are worm poo. Once again they are turning new designs each year in cold molded and they sail really well not like your heavy lumps of steel. Even the resorcinol boats from ww2 hold up with next to no maintenance .
Understand you are proud of being a Canadian . That's great. Take a run over to Covey island yachts in lunenburg. I went up there when looking at strip plank as a possibility. Once again they can make you a boat in any form of wood composite that's durable and less maintenance then one of your magic turning blocks.
Sorry guys- had a bad day so venting on the one trick pony. Like Bob says I like all boats in all materials if it's a good design and done right.


----------



## outbound

By the way Brent if you're interested in a really quick build where you don't need to stress about blasting,grinding and multiple coatings after construction take a look at the wood sheet ply boats. Multiple designers have worked with this material with construction aimed at the home builder.
If I had an in door space I would take up the tig welder and do aluminum. Then could use the wood shop tools I have. No nibblelers, chippers and grinders. Or even better vacuum bag up a cold molded one off.
If building outside and above at least 40' ( otherwise not worth the effort) would do steel but framed steel not origami.


----------



## Dean101

Brent Swain said:


> *A friend *compared older wooden boat to that old saying " This is EXACTLY the same axe my great grandfather used. Since then, it has had 5 new heads and 10 new handles."
> Such is the case with most parts of very old wooden boats . You don't own one, they own you.


You keep quoting these friends of yours that you apparently talk to quite often. Would you be willing to ask a few of them to register on sailnet and put all these crazy claims to rest? I for one would like to hear it from someone other than you that your claims are in fact..... facts.


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## jak3b

How 'bout that pic of the 'fleets' of your boats in Cabo???????


----------



## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> .............Tangible proof is Viski, having survived pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf, then being dragged by a tug across the same 300 yards of reef, with almost zero damage . Tangible proof is the .... circumnavigations and long offshore voyages over decades, all with zero structural damage of any kind. Tangible proof is the photos posted on BD.net of the first of my 36 footers pounding in up to12 ft surf for 16 days, with minimal damage. Tangible proof is Winston's single season passage thru the NW passage with zero dents or damage of any kind.........


Only one of these claims is directly verifiable, and another event you used to use (the T boned high floating barge) turned out to be a fake when witnesses came forward. So lets look at this claim of proof:



Brent Swain said:


> Tangible proof is the photos posted on BD.net of the first of my 36 footers pounding in up to12 ft surf for 16 days, with minimal damage.


This gives another benchmark for the reliability of the 'tale' .
The only photo ever posted is attached. It's a tall order to suggest that it 'proves' that the boat was pounding in 12 foot surf for 16 days.

It shows a boat well out of very benign waves (not surf) that apparently went ashore at high tide and is sitting vulnerably with mast out to sea and decks vulnerable.

The recovery of the boat ( winched off by hand using recovery anchors) caused a little damage when it bumped a few times as it finally floated going out through ( from memory of the account by more reliably witnesses) 6 foot waves. The resulting damage from being dropped on it's side a few times was a fracture in the base of the wooden mast. A fracture that hadn't occurred in your version (pounding in 12 foot surf for 16 days) happened in much more benign conditions when the boat finally thumped the bottom a few times being pulled off.

Unless rolled, boats are usually washed gently up a beach with each lifting swell and are left high and dry and almost always undamaged. As this picture shows and if there had been any surf it would have wreaked havoc with the deck since it stayed in the mast to sea attitude ( the worst scenario for deck damage and stove in hatches and ports ) .

Nearly all construction materials for a medium displacement monohull would have survived just as intact, so not a great indication of any superiority of steel. For that it would be worth looking at rocky shore beachings.

I'm very happy for the boats owner that he got his boat off the beach. What a nightmare. I believe friends flew south to Mexico with the recovery gear and the rescue was funded by the union he was a member of.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Brent I actually know a fair number of the concordias you demean. You are right some have had amazing maintenance as the owners love their boats. Some are kept in bright and get the whole hull varnished yearly. But guess what Chuckles that's the original hull. Your nonsense about handles and heads is just nonsense.
> Have you owned a fine wooden boat? Same crap you throw at us we can pick up and throw it back.
> Btw if you want a truly forever low maintenance hull for the home builder look at wood epoxy. They will be still sailing when you are worm poo. Once again they are turning new designs each year in cold molded and they sail really well not like your heavy lumps of steel. Even the resorcinol boats from ww2 hold up with next to no maintenance .
> Understand you are proud of being a Canadian . That's great. Take a run over to Covey island yachts in lunenburg. I went up there when looking at strip plank as a possibility. Once again they can make you a boat in any form of wood composite that's durable and less maintenance then one of your magic turning blocks.
> Sorry guys- had a bad day so venting on the one trick pony. Like Bob says I like all boats in all materials if it's a good design and done right.


In 88 I met a couple in Cabo who had built a new boat out of Mt St Helens fir. Beautifully built and almost brand new, saturated withe best epoxy available. A couple of months later , they found dry rot. Another friend on Cortes, a master craftsman and perfectionist, built a 36 footer out of wood. He saturated her with West systems epoxy. She now has deck leaks .

Winston took 14 days from BC to Hawaii, Andy Gray took 15 days. After leaving Vancouver Island in a good westerly, on my last trip south, I was south of Hawaii in 14 days. My last two trips north from Hawaii took me 23 days to BC , the first 1,000 miles being hard on the wind, in a strong NE trade wind, in a heavily loaded 31 ft twin keeler. How much faster could one expect to do in any heavily loaded 31 ft twin keeler with all the owners worldly posessions aboard?
Steve posted some impressive passage times on Silas Crosby , in his blog.
I remember going to windward on Shinola, in a light NW wind in Comox Harbour, Just South of Comox Spit, with a Cooper 41 ahead of us. The skipper made some derogatory remarks about us, so we sailed on past him, tied up, and were on our way to the pub by the time he passed the breakwater.
You call that slow?

Sailing home from Tahiti , about 1,000 miles north of Hawaii, I hit something so solid, and it threw me out of my bunk. Scrambling on deck, I saw a huge black shape in the light of the full moon, behind me. I quickly checked the bilge, and it remained dry. Later I found a small dent in my hull, where it had hit. If my boat had been anything but steel, I would be dead long before now. You couldn't pay me enough to go to sea in a wooden boat, or any non metal boat. Many who have are no longer with us( including the Sleavin family, the family Steve hoped to meet in Fiji,the young couple who disappeared on their way home from Hawaii, etc etc.)
My maintenance is about an hour a year ,a fraction that of any wooden boat owners I have ever known , in over 40 years of cruising. People I have met ,who switched from wood to steel, are blown away by how much less maintenance there is on a steel boat.

I just measured the height of the trip wires ( lifelines?)on a Catalina 27 ,Smacks first choice of boat. 24 inches, the same as on a Catalina 36. Does anyone know the height of such trip wires on a Hunter? None here to measure.

I stand corrected , I cut stanchions to 34 inches, and put the top rail on top of that , in Silas Crosby's case, 1 1/4 OD sch 40 pipe . Saddling the stanchions out on both ends takes about a half inch out of the height, giving one 30 3/4 inches on top of the 4 inch bulwark, for a total of 34 3/4 inches above the decks . I have been doing them that way, to that height ,since the mid 70's, including on Silas Crosby. But Smack claims that 1 1/4 inches less than 36 inches makes them far to low, while he chooses a boat with 24 inch high lifelines, having only plastic coasted wire for the top lifeline, instead of 1 inch sch 40m stainless pipe! 
Does that still leave anyone gullible enough to believe anything else he posts?


----------



## smackdaddy

MikeJohns said:


> Only one of these claims is directly verifiable, and another event you used to use (the T boned high floating barge) turned out to be a fake when witnesses came forward. So lets look at this claim of proof:
> 
> This gives another benchmark for the reliability of the 'tale' .
> The only photo ever posted is attached. It's a tall order to suggest that it 'proves' that the boat was pounding in 12 foot surf for 16 days.
> 
> It shows a boat well out of very benign waves (not surf) that apparently went ashore at high tide and is sitting vulnerably with mast out to sea and decks vulnerable.
> 
> The recovery of the boat ( winched off by hand using recovery anchors) caused a little damage when it bumped a few times as it finally floated going out through ( from memory of the account by more reliably witnesses) 6 foot waves. The resulting damage from being dropped on it's side a few times was a fracture in the base of the wooden mast. A fracture that hadn't occurred in your version (pounding in 12 foot surf for 16 days) happened in much more benign conditions when the boat finally thumped the bottom a few times being pulled off.
> 
> Unless rolled, boats are usually washed gently up a beach with each lifting swell and are left high and dry and almost always undamaged. As this picture shows and if there had been any surf it would have wreaked havoc with the deck since it stayed in the mast to sea attitude ( the worst scenario for deck damage and stove in hatches and ports ) .
> 
> Nearly all construction materials for a medium displacement monohull would have survived just as intact, so not a great indication of any superiority of steel. For that it would be worth looking at rocky shore beachings.
> 
> I'm very happy for the boats owner that he got his boat off the beach. What a nightmare. I believe friends flew south to Mexico with the recovery gear and the rescue was funded by the union he was a member of.


Wow. So is _anything_ Brent ever says true? The dude seriously seems to have a problem.


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> Only one of these claims is directly verifiable, and another event you used to use (the T boned high floating barge) turned out to be a fake when witnesses came forward. So lets look at this claim of proof:
> 
> Grammas pub was full of spectators when the first 36 I hit t-boned the barge, as several told me. Architect Cesar Caflish was aboard the boat ,and also confirmed it to me. Then he put his new wooden boat up for sale, and hired Bruce Cope ( of Cope Aluminim boats in Parksville)to build him a steel boat. Bruce can confirm that.
> 
> This gives another benchmark for the reliability of the 'tale' .
> The only photo ever posted is attached. It's a tall order to suggest that it 'proves' that the boat was pounding in 12 foot surf for 16 days.
> 
> It shows a boat well out of very benign waves (not surf) that apparently went ashore at high tide and is sitting vulnerably with mast out to sea and decks vulnerable.
> 
> The recovery of the boat ( winched off by hand using recovery anchors) caused a little damage when it bumped a few times as it finally floated going out through ( from memory of the account by more reliably witnesses) 6 foot waves. The resulting damage from being dropped on it's side a few times was a fracture in the base of the wooden mast. A fracture that hadn't occurred in your version (pounding in 12 foot surf for 16 days) happened in much more benign conditions when the boat finally thumped the bottom a few times being pulled off.
> 
> Unless rolled, boats are usually washed gently up a beach with each lifting swell and are left high and dry and almost always undamaged. As this picture shows and if there had been any surf it would have wreaked havoc with the deck since it stayed in the mast to sea attitude ( the worst scenario for deck damage and stove in hatches and ports ) .
> 
> Nearly all construction materials for a medium displacement monohull would have survived just as intact, so not a great indication of any superiority of steel. For that it would be worth looking at rocky shore beachings.
> 
> I'm very happy for the boats owner that he got his boat off the beach. What a nightmare. I believe friends flew south to Mexico with the recovery gear and the rescue was funded by the union he was a member of.


How did a boat get to smaller shore waves without going thru the bigger stuff further out? How did she get thru the smaller shore waves on her way off the beach, without going thru the bigger stuff further out? By local San Ignacio helicopter"?: Ya sure!
Nanaimo resident and some times Green Party candidate and Georgia Strait Alliance activist Norman Abby can confirm it , as he was there, as can Victoria artist Godfrey Stephens.. Rudy who was also there, said they were waist deep in water on the decks ,. The photos show him up to his neck in water, cranking on a come along. He is no longer with us. Were you there? what makes your story more credible than that of people who were there? (Mike fabricates things whenever convenient)
Want rocks ? When Viski pounded acoss 300 yards of Fijian coral reef ,it wasn't rocks, but dead coral, almost as hard. She survived with only a barely noticeable dent in her keel bottom, as the only damage, in conditions which would have broken up any boat made of any other material. The freighter he hit in Gibraltar was not made of soft sand.
Last I heard, Mike was living in Tasmania. Yet he claims to have had interviews with people who were there at the time? Where does that leave his credibility? He is obviously quite the"Maker upper!"
How do you post a picture "unattached" from before the time of digital cameras ? The same way you take "original digital" photos of Napoleon?
Ya sure!
Wanna buy the only Rembrandt ever done in ballpoint?


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I stand corrected , I cut stanchions to 34 inches, and put the top rail on top of that , in Silas Crosby's case, 1 1/4 OD sch 40 pipe . Saddling the stanchions out on both ends takes about a half inch out of the height, giving one 30 3/4 inches on top of the 4 inch bulwark, for a total of 34 3/4 inches above the decks . I have been doing them that way, to that height ,since the mid 70's, including on Silas Crosby. But Smack claims that 1 1/4 inches less than 36 inches makes them far to low, while he chooses a boat with 24 inch high lifelines, having only plastic coasted wire for the top lifeline, instead of 1 inch sch 40m stainless pipe!
> Does that still leave anyone gullible enough to believe anything else he posts?


Oh Brent. It's hard for you to understand someone being ironic - especially with multiple Steves running around your already crowded head. So let me break it down...

Steve (the Steve of Silas Crosby, not the me Steve) is the one saying you're wrong about the lifeline height. I showed you his entry on his blog. He says they're 36" period. No gymnastics required. 36". You keep saying he's lying about that. I don't believe you. I think Steve's probably pretty honest (both of them). He has some credibility. You don't. That much has been proven in this thread.

Now, this is the first place where you should, indeed, stand corrected. Now comes the irony...and the second place you should stand corrected.

I think 36" life lines or life rails are utterly stupid. In fact, they are dangerous on a cruising boat. Why? They encourage walking upright on a foredeck like a jackass - which you should never do in a seaway. You should be low and clipped in.

Now, when you are low and clipped in as you should be, the standard height lifelines are perfect. It would be very, very easy to squirt through the utterly silly span of a 36" rail with a single line at 18".

So, you're wrong about the rail height on the Silas Crosby. You stand corrected. And you're wrong about me saying that 34" is far too low. It's just as ridiculous as 36" (this is the irony part). Again, you stand corrected.

Yes, you do things different from everyone else in the boat design world. And it's still wrong.



Brent Swain said:


> How do you post a picture "unattached" from before the time of digital cameras ? The same way you take "digital" photos of Napoleon?
> Ya sure!
> Wanna buy the only Rembrandt ever done in ballpoint?


Oh lord. He didn't really just say that did he?


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Wow. So is _anything_ Brent ever says true? The dude seriously seems to have a problem.


Far more true than your claim that 34 3/4 inch, by one inch sch 40 lifelines with a solid 1 inch sch 40 stainless top life line is not high enough, but the 24 inch high plastic coated wire lifelines on your Catalina are!
Definitely far more true that the claim that a wooden boat is stronger than a steel one.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Actually, you may have a point:
> 
> Toil and misery. Definitely sounds like building a steel boat to me. Heh-heh.


Toil and misery is what people have to do to pay someone $150 an hour to draw pictures of a plastic boat, drawn with no consideration of cost, then pay to have it built ,while the more enlightened of us semi retire in our mid 20's, to cruise mostly full time for the rest of our lives.
I haven't found working a month a year, to be anything resembling the toil and misery I see people following your advice having done.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Toil and misery is what people have to do to pay someone $150 an hour to draw pictures of a plastic boat, drawn with no consideration of cost, then pay to have it built ,while the more enlightened of us semi retire in our mid 20's, to cruise mostly full time for the rest of our lives.
> I haven't found working a month a year, to be anything resembling the toil and misery I see people following your advice having done.


Yeah, but you're alone and bitter, stuck on a small boat day-in and day-out in the same stretch of water - braying for a government pension. What so "enlightened" about that? Seriously. That sounds horrible.

I'm perfectly happy doing what I do - having a pretty nice home - and sailing with my kids as much as I want to. It's a wonderful mix. Some might even call it "enlightened".


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> . People are just pirating your plans to save the hundreds of dollars for your outrageous fees - and putting that money into their boat. It's something you should be proud of. It's really just recycling.


Smack calls my design fee of $350 for a 36, or my hourly rate of $30 an hour "outrageous fees" yet advocates spending thousands of dollars and $150 an hour on plans and advice from someone with zero hands on experience in steel boat building , maintaining or long term cruising in a steel boat, in other words , someone who hasn't a clue about the realities of steel cruising boats . Such plans are drawn, as he admits , with zero consideration for the cost, time and difficulty in building what he has drawn. That designer has also, while criticizing my drawings, admitted that he provides only hull shape, leaving structural and other very important factors entirely up to the builder. 
So where does that leave Smacks credibility? Anyone still gullible enough to believe his posts ?


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Smack calls my design fee of $350 for a 36, or my hourly rate of $30 an hour "outrageous fees" yet advocates spending thousands of dollars and $150 an hour on plans and advice from someone with zero hands on experience in steel boat building , maintaining or long term cruising in a steel boat, in other words , someone who hasn't a clue about the realities of steel cruising boats . Such plans are drawn, as he admits , with zero consideration for the cost, time and difficulty in building what he has drawn. That designer has also, while criticizing my drawings, admitted that he provides only hull shape, leaving structural and other very important factors entirely up to the builder.
> So where does that leave Smacks credibility? Anyone still gullible enough to believe his posts ?


Heh-heh. I just can't help it. This really is fun.


----------



## chall03

Toil and misery?

I do really love cruising, the people you meet and the places you go. I can't wait to get back out there again. 

BUT strangely I do actually also love my job. Seriously. What I do for money is pretty friggin cool. I don't get paid a fortune, but I do ok, and it's really fun. 

It also means I can afford the boat I like, and go cruising with some sacrifice. 

Sorry Brent but add me to the camp of people who don't share your perspective on life here.


----------



## Faster

smackdaddy said:


> Heh-heh. I just can't help it. This really is fun.


.... Should I do Brent a favour and ban him???


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Smack calls my design fee of $350 for a 36, or my hourly rate of $30 an hour "outrageous fees" yet advocates spending thousands of dollars and $150 an hour on plans and advice from someone with zero hands on experience in steel boat building , maintaining or long term cruising in a steel boat, in other words , someone who hasn't a clue about the realities of steel cruising boats . Such plans are drawn, as he admits , with zero consideration for the cost, time and difficulty in building what he has drawn. That designer has also, while criticizing my drawings, admitted that he provides only hull shape, leaving structural and other very important factors entirely up to the builder.
> So where does that leave Smacks credibility? Anyone still gullible enough to believe his posts ?


It appears irony escapes him.

Repetition certainly doesn't.


----------



## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> How did a boat get to smaller shore waves without going thru the bigger stuff further out? How did she get thru the smaller shore waves on her way off the beach, without going thru the bigger stuff further out? By local San Ignacio helicopter"?: Ya sure!
> Nanaimo resident and some times Green Party candidate and Georgia Strait Alliance activist Norman Abby can confirm it , as he was there, as can Victoria artist Godfrey Stephens.. Rudy who was also there, said they were waist deep in water on the decks ,. The photos show him up to his neck in water, cranking on a come along. He is no longer with us. Were you there? what makes your story more credible than that of people who were there? (Mike fabricates things whenever convenient)


Brent, no one is saying the boat didn't go aground. When a boat is winched off by hand you will very likely stand in deep water up to you neck operating the Tirfor there's no issue with that.

And it did have a rough ride getting it off which fractured the mast. The issue is that you purport that the picture proves that the boat pounded for 16 days in 12 foot surf ! 
It doesn't, that's just your creative marketing at work again. There are no pictures proving that, so why claim there are or that they were posted on BD net. That's just dumb because I can go and check. The only claims you make are invariably hype and they are 2nd or third hand by the time you adopt them and proselytize them as 'fact'.



Brent Swain said:


> Want rocks ? When Viski pounded acoss 300 yards of Fijian coral reef ,it wasn't rocks, but dead coral, almost as hard. She survived with only a barely noticeable dent in her keel bottom, as the only damage, in conditions which would have broken up any boat made of any other material. The freighter he hit in Gibraltar was not made of soft sand.
> Last I heard, Mike was living in Tasmania. Yet he claims to have had interviews with people who were there at the time? Where does that leave his credibility? .............How do you post a picture "unattached" from before the time of digital cameras ? The same way you take "original digital" photos of Napoleon?
> Ya sure!
> Wanna buy the only Rembrandt ever done in ballpoint?


It's a brave new world of cheap instant global communication as you know since you try to use use the internet so much to your advantage on so many forums under several names.

I remember someone else calling you out on the hype of incredible toughness. This was the list of the hyped up claims you make and the proposal, totally objective testing rather than the subjective conclusions you market:

*Picked up and dropped by 12 foot surf for days on hard sand*: Try dropping one of your designs once 12 feet from a crane.

*Pounded over then dragged back over 300m of reef* : Try dragging one of your hulls just 100 feet over boulders with a bulldozer. It will be an ex-boat but it's the image you sell .

And *T boning a high floating barge at 8 knots*: Go and ram a concrete wall at 8 knots and watch the unframed unsupported front end concatenate into a pancake (and learn about buckling).

Except that last T bone was different when reliable witnesses came fwd it hadn't happened that way. You claimed that they were doing 8 knots and that they hit the barge dead on in a classic T bone and that the barge was floating high. Reliable witnesses said it hit the barge but the barge was awash tied up to the dock and the boat was approaching the dock ( not doing 8 knts) and that it simply slid up on it's stem a couple of feet.


----------



## aeventyr60

Faster said:


> .... Should I do Brent a favour and ban him???


Why deprive us of rich humor?


----------



## MikeJohns

smackdaddy said:


> Wow. So is _anything_ Brent ever says true? The dude seriously seems to have a problem.


Usually the hype is loosely based on something factual. But whenever the real story surfaces it's nothing like Brent's version.


----------



## bobperry

Amazing!
I takea few days off to go skiing and come back to find BS as angry and cranky as ever. He really souds like a broken record. I cant figure point what cogent point it is he is trying to make. It gets lost in his babble. His constant struggle with the truth is dissapointing. It has really gotten old. But not boring.

Don't ban him. Despite his constant bitter rants he is sort of funny in a pathetic way.
All his words will never provide what he needs to post a credible, professional design here. He's a very mediocre backyard boatbuilder with a bitter attitude and that's all.


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## bobperry

BrentL
I'm curious. Exactly who are you talking about here? It can't be me and I'm very happy to post one of my structural drawings. "That designer has also, while criticizing my drawings, admitted that he provides only hull shape, leaving structural and other very important factors entirely up to the builder."



Maybe you could post one of your own strructural drawings and we can compare level of detail. Of course for this design the drawing posted is only one of several structural drawings. I dont have the others digitized.

I can post more if you want more proof but they will just intimidate you even more. So, once again, be careful before putting words into other people's mouths. In the end it will just display your own ignorance.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Amazing!
> I takea few days off to go skiing and come back to find BS as angry and cranky as ever. He really souds like a broken record. I cant figure point what cogent point it is he is trying to make. It gets lost in his babble. His constant struggle with the truth is dissapointing. It has really gotten old. But not boring.
> 
> Don't ban him. Despite his constant bitter rants he is sort of funny in a pathetic way.
> All his words will never provide what he needs to post a credible, professional design here. He's a very mediocre backyard boatbuilder with a bitter attitude and that's all.


Bob. ( grumpy old man) Your posts sound so bitter. Sadly your skiing didn't mellow you out any. Is that an idication of how much booze you consume on your skiing trips. The green stuff doesnt have that effect.
Are you claiming that 24 inch high stanchions held down with a few tiny bolts are strong enough and high enough,yet sch 40 stainless pipe welded down, with a solid top rail are not? You keep sugesting that wood and plastic boats are stronger than steel. Are you claiming that to point out the error in these suggestions can only be done out of anger? Are you suggesting that a happy person will just let bull slide, and continue to cause people problems, without bothering to warn them? Are you claiming that for anyone to point out such errors, they must be angry to do so?Yet you claim that I have problems with the truth? 
You react very angrily to anyone challenging your self serving bull ,whenever anyone does. You are thus a very mediocre sample of an 
'Advisor " on anything, let alone on steel boats, a subjetc you know very little about..


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> BrentL
> I'm curious. Exactly who are you talking about here? It can't be me and I'm very happy to post one of my structural drawings. "That designer has also, while criticizing my drawings, admitted that he provides only hull shape, leaving structural and other very important factors entirely up to the builder."
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you could post one of your own strructural drawings and we can compare level of detail. Of course for this design the drawing posted is only one of several structural drawings. I dont have the others digitized.
> 
> I can post more if you want more proof but they will just intimidate you even more. So, once again, be careful before putting words into other people's mouths. In the end it will just display your own ignorance.


 That is one extremely, needlesly complex , time consuming and expensive boat to build.It is obviously designed by someone with zero hands on experince in building in steel .That is the kind of nonsense which turns a boat building project into a 20 year project while runniung the owner so deeply in debt that he cant use it for what a boat is for ,cruising time.
The benefit? Spending years of building time and paying for it time ,to only possibly save a couple of days on a passage . I see a huge amount of structuraly redundant steel in that drawing. All that centreline flat bar? The centrline of the hull plate is a huge longitudinal angle iron, structurally, and the keel and skeg sides are fully welded steel bulkheads on edge, making that flat bar structurally irrelevant .
The detail is to small to see ,but what is the cap on that bulwark? What do you use for deck longitudinals? As the deck edges shrink longitudinally, they do a lot to keep the decks from oilcanning. An extra inch in the cabintop camber makea a huge increase in stiffness and a huge decrease in the chance of disortion.

The side decks look a bit skimpy compared to what you usually do. I thought you knew better. I have always refused to do narrow side decks, which owners have always thanked me for later.
The complex compound shapes on those hull plates, easy to draw on paper ,by someone who will never have to make steel go in that shape, are a horrendous waste of time and money. They inevitably result in the use of a lot of filler, which means having to pamper your hull , eliminating a huge advantage of building in steel in the first place.

Chain plates running down the hull are another example of not being able to get out of wood and plastic boat thinking. A weld has 100% of ther strength of the metal. Once you have welded a long enough base on the chainplate to more than match the strength of the shroud, any further is a complete waste of time money and material.
One should bear in mind that in colder lattitudes ,(even on your side of the Strait of Want to Puka ,Bob) a piece of steel the size of your fingernail poking thru the spray foam will drip condensation continually, like a leaky faucett. Thus every bit of that redundant steel in this boat will have to be covered by a half inch of foam. The more steel ,the more covering you will have to do, and the more interior space gets eaten up. However, there is no need to cover foam inside of lockers. Don't let the spray foamer leave, until you have checked it several times, and have him touch up all the tiny spots he missed.
The more hard edges , and nooks and cranies in a boat ,the more maintenace it will take to keep paint on them. Simplifying drastically reduces maintenance on a steel boat.


----------



## bobperry

Boy Brent :
Your anger never ceases to maze me. You are a small man, bitter that you have never amounted to much and no one really cares.

"You keep sugesting that wood and plastic boats are stronger than steel."
Ok, Brent stop making things up. Now back up your words with the exact quote where I saisd that. But you can't because I never said that. But it's your style to invent the words of others. Brent's fantacy land. Maybe a reading comprehension issue.

Brent, when you are wrong you are really wrong.
For the record "expert":
"I see a huge amount of structuraly redundant steel in that drawing. All that centreline flat bar? The centrline of the hull plate is a huge longitudinal angle iron, structurally, and the keel and skeg sides are fully welded steel bulkheads on edge, making that flat bar structurally irrelevant "

This is an alu boat so your comments are worthless. Maybe you should actually study the drawings first next time before making your typically lame affort at rebutting.

Given what I see in the BS boats your comments have no relevance at all to what I do.

Like I say, post some of your own structural drawing. Let us judge. I'll bet now that you won't.

As for the origins of your constant anger and ranting. I don't think they have anything to do with yacht design. They are just you being you in your little way. I know lots of yacht designers We rib and kid each other all the time. We have good natured fun doing it while respecting what each designer does well. You don't fit in that group at all. We enjoy the diversity of the design products we produce. Diversity is fun. Not sure what group you fit in. I suspect none and that is part of your anger. You will never gain respect in that world only derision. Your words certainly are not going to gain you access into that world.

You are like a broken record of some very bad music.


----------



## A. Mann

Hi Bob!


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## bobperry

Hey Assman! How's it going?


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Yeah, but you're alone and bitter, stuck on a small boat day-in and day-out in the same stretch of water - braying for a government pension. What so "enlightened" about that? Seriously. That sounds horrible.
> 
> I'm perfectly happy doing what I do - having a pretty nice home - and sailing with my kids as much as I want to. It's a wonderful mix. Some might even call it "enlightened".


I cant think of anyone, especially married guys ,I would want to trade places with . ( the little head is no longer doing the thinking for the big one)I could be anywhere on the planet I wished to be ,but I am exactly where I choose to be, here in Paradise. Last time I left Tonga, a Portugese cruiser said "You are leaving paradise?" I told him " No . I am leaving Tonga , going to paradise : BC." I still had several months left on my visa, and no shortage of money.
No braying needed for pension .You get it whether you want it or not. Allen Farrel said he was getting far more than he needed. He asked if he could give it back and the govt said "No way!" I told him' "Take every penny they will give you .Then, you can decide who needs it and who to give it to, not them . They would give it to the rich, as they always have done."
Committing totally senseless random acts of kindness is the most pleasure one can get out of money.
Suns beating down, days are warmer and getting longer , summer is ahead of us, missed a beatutiful westerly to get me down the strait yesterday ,but they become more common this time of year, so I'll have another soon, and will continue to enjoy them ,while those who go the Smack route will be in urban traffic jams, trying to obtain the money needed to follow bad advice. It has been a much warmer and dryer winter than I can remember ,while the arctic vortex just keeps sending all that arctic air skedaddling on down to Texas. Does life get any better?
I can always spoil other peoples kids rotten which I have often striven to do (something my father taught me to enjoy). He and one old Swede down the road , took us kids camping ,swimming, hunting , fishing , while other parents did nothing. Their loss.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Are you claiming that 24 inch high stanchions held down with a few tiny bolts are strong enough and high enough,yet sch 40 stainless pipe welded down, with a solid top rail are not?


Strong enough for what exactly? See this is your main problem - you have no calculations to define what "strong" means. So you just guess. Always.

Are 24" bolted stanchions strong enough to keep a person or persons aboard the boat if they fall against them? Absolutely. That's why you see them everywhere.

Are they strong enough to withstand "pounding in 12' surf on a Mexican beach for 6 months with zero damage"? Hell no. But neither is your schedule 40 stainless pipe welded down with a solid top rail. Your stanchions and liferails are "way too weak and flimsy" for that. I wouldn't trust them at all for that job.

See? Your question and comparison means nothing. It's all about the intended function - and the force calculations behind that intended function. You don't know any of that stuff. So you just look silly talking about it...especially with guys like Bob or Mike.



Brent Swain said:


> You keep sugesting that wood and plastic boats are stronger than steel. Are you claiming that to point out the error in these suggestions can only be done out of anger? Are you suggesting that a happy person will just let bull slide, and continue to cause people problems, without bothering to warn them? Are you claiming that for anyone to point out such errors, they must be angry to do so?Yet you claim that I have problems with the truth?.


If a dude is wrong, he's wrong. No anger required. You're really the only person continually coming across as angry. Bob has provided evidence for EVERYTHING he's said. You are COMPLETELY unable to back up ANYTHING you say with ANY evidence whatsoever. And it's becoming clear as day to _everyone_ that you have nothing at all to back up your claims...because they are just plain wrong or false.

So, you're really going after the wrong guy here dude.



Brent Swain said:


> You react very angrily to anyone challenging your self serving bull ,whenever anyone does. You are thus a very mediocre sample of an
> 'Advisor " on anything, let alone on steel boats, a subjetc you know very little about..


Actually, at the end of the day, it appears that you know very little about boats yourself...steel or otherwise. Your advice is simply on a "trust me" basis - and we all see how that's gone.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Oh Brent. It's hard for you to understand someone being ironic - especially with multiple Steves running around your already crowded head. So let me break it down...
> 
> Steve (the Steve of Silas Crosby, not the me Steve) is the one saying you're wrong about the lifeline height. I showed you his entry on his blog. He says they're 36" period. No gymnastics required. 36". You keep saying he's lying about that. I don't believe you. I think Steve's probably pretty honest (both of them). He has some credibility. You don't. That much has been proven in this thread.
> 
> Now, this is the first place where you should, indeed, stand corrected. Now comes the irony...and the second place you should stand corrected.
> 
> I think 36" life lines or life rails are utterly stupid. In fact, they are dangerous on a cruising boat. Why? They encourage walking upright on a foredeck like a jackass - which you should never do in a seaway. You should be low and clipped in.
> 
> Now, when you are low and clipped in as you should be, the standard height lifelines are perfect. It would be very, very easy to squirt through the utterly silly span of a 36" rail with a single line at 18".
> 
> So, you're wrong about the rail height on the Silas Crosby. You stand corrected. And you're wrong about me saying that 34" is far too low. It's just as ridiculous as 36" (this is the irony part). Again, you stand corrected.
> 
> Yes, you do things different from everyone else in the boat design world. And it's still wrong.
> 
> Oh lord. He didn't really just say that did he?


Lifeline heights vary widely among stock boats ,usually low, to increase profits and reduce costs.
The lifelines on the 36, after 16 days if pounding on a Mexican beach, were totally undamaged ,as anyone can see in the photos. The crew getting her off, said they were waist deep on the foredeck ,and would have all been washed overbaord by the first wave ,had they had the dinky little yachtie lifelines which Smack advocates.
24 inch high plastic coated trip wires are more likely to keep you aboard than 35 inch high solid lifelines? Where does a hair brained theory like that leave Smacks credibility?
ZERO!


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I cant think of anyone, especially married guys ,I would want to trade places with . ( the little head is no longer doing the thinking for the big one)I could be anywhere on the planet I wished to be ,but I am exactly where I choose to be, here in Paradise. Last time I left Tonga, a Portugese cruiser said "You are leaving paradise?" I told him " No . I am leaving Tonga , going to paradise : BC." I still had several months left on my visa, and no shortage of money.
> No braying needed for pension .You get it whether you want it or not. Allen Farrel said he was getting far more than he needed. He asked if he could give it back and the govt said "No way!" I told him' "Take every penny they will give you .Then, you can decide who needs it and who to give it to, not them . They would give it to the rich, as they always have done."
> Committing totally senseless random acts of kindness is the most pleasure one can get out of money.
> Suns beating down, days are warmer and getting longer , summer is ahead of us, missed a beatutiful westerly to get me down the strait yesterday ,but they become more common this time of year, so I'll have another soon, and will continue to enjoy them ,while those who go the Smack route will be in urban traffic jams, trying to obtain the money needed to follow bad advice. It has been a much warmer and dryer winter than I can remember ,while the arctic vortex just keeps sending all that arctic air skedaddling on down to Texas. Does life get any better?
> I can always spoil other peoples kids rotten which I have often striven to do (something my father taught me to enjoy). He and one old Swede down the road , took us kids camping ,swimming, hunting , fishing , while other parents did nothing. Their loss.


I know, I know. You're perfectly happy right where you are...










More power to you bro.


----------



## bobperry

I'm in a good mood today. I just spent three days with my darling granddaughter Violet and tomorrow I am driving to Sea-Tac airport to pick up Will Porter.

Will is a high school junior. His family is currently doing a circumnavigation and they are in Costa Rica now. I have been corresponding with Will for almost a year. He has talent.
Poor kid wants to be a yacht designer. So his Dad arranged for Will to fly up and spend two weeks at my beach shack while I teach him what I can teach him.

I am looking forward to this honor. It will be nice to have a kid in the house again. I have a plan set out for him. When a student leaves my office I want his peers to say, "Wow! you did that?" Will will be a reflection of me when he leaves so I want to send him out there strong and prepared. I will be borderline brutal with him. I have already warned him of that.

So, am I angry and bitter? Yes I am. Yeah, about a few things like the death of my son. But that's to be expected in a normal person. who loses a child they love. About life in general? No, I have Violet to get me over that and I have a grandson due in April. I love having family around. Family and dogs are what makes life enjoyable for me and my work.

I admit it. I do not suffer fools. I have no time for fools. And from my own perspective Brent has proven himself a fool time and time again. Over 10 years of ridicule on the YD forum were enough to prove that. I suspect that Brent does not own a mirror.

What I would really like is for us to come together here, discuss the pros and cons of steel boats without all the personal angst. Show us the boats. Show us the design work. Then we can discuss the merits of each and make up our own minds. I have proiven that I am delighted to post my own work here. I am proud of my work. I don't understand why it has to be attack model all the time. If you want to rebut, then rebut with your work, not your words. Respect each other's contributions. Then let it go at that. If you don't respect a contribution you should be able to voice that without it becoming personal. Keep the subject yacht design and building.

I am not optimistic.


----------



## bobperry

Brent Swain said:


> I cant think of anyone, especially married guys ,I would want to trade places with . ( the little head is no longer doing the thinking for the big one)I could be anywhere on the planet I wished to be ,but I am exactly where I choose to be, here in Paradise. Last time I left Tonga, a Portugese cruiser said "You are leaving paradise?" I told him " No . I am leaving Tonga , going to paradise : BC." I still had several months left on my visa, and no shortage of money.
> No braying needed for pension .You get it whether you want it or not. Allen Farrel said he was getting far more than he needed. He asked if he could give it back and the govt said "No way!" I told him' "Take every penny they will give you .Then, you can decide who needs it and who to give it to, not them . They would give it to the rich, as they always have done."
> Committing totally senseless random acts of kindness is the most pleasure one can get out of money.
> Suns beating down, days are warmer and getting longer , summer is ahead of us, missed a beatutiful westerly to get me down the strait yesterday ,but they become more common this time of year, so I'll have another soon, and will continue to enjoy them ,while those who go the Smack route will be in urban traffic jams, trying to obtain the money needed to follow bad advice. It has been a much warmer and dryer winter than I can remember ,while the arctic vortex just keeps sending all that arctic air skedaddling on down to Texas. Does life get any better?
> I can always spoil other peoples kids rotten which I have often striven to do (something my father taught me to enjoy). He and one old Swede down the road , took us kids camping ,swimming, hunting , fishing , while other parents did nothing. Their loss.


But you seem so angry!


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> I'm in a good mood today. I just spent three days with my darling granddaughter Violet and tomorrow I am driving to Sea-Tac airport to pick up Will Porter.
> 
> Will is a high school junior. His family is currently doing a circumnavigation and they are in Costa Rica now. I have been corresponding with Will for almost a year. He has talent.
> Poor kid wants to be a yacht designer. So his Dad arranged for Will to fly up and spend two weeks at my beach shack while I teach him what I can teach him.
> 
> I am looking forward to this honor. It will be nice to have a kid in the house again. I have a plan set out for him. When a student leaves my office I want his peers to say, "Wow! you did that?" Will will be a reflection of me when he leaves so I want to send him out there strong and prepared. I will be borderline brutal with him. I have already warned him of that.
> 
> So, am I angry and bitter? Yes I am. Yeah, about a few things like the death of my son. But that's to be expected in a normal person. who loses a child they love. About life in general? No, I have Violet to get me over that and I have a grandson due in April. I love having family around. Family and dogs are what makes life enjoyable for me and my work.
> 
> I admit it. I do not suffer fools. I have no time for fools. And from my own perspective Brent has proven himself a fool time and time again. Over 10 years of ridicule on the YD forum were enough to prove that. I suspect that Brent does not own a mirror.
> 
> What I would really like is for us to come together here, discuss the pros and cons of steel boats without all the personal angst. Show us the boats. Show us the design work. Then we can discuss the merits of each and make up our own minds. I have proiven that I am delighted to post my own work here. I am proud of my work. I don't understand why it has to be attack model all the time. If you want to rebut, then rebut with your work, not your words. Respect each other's contributions. Then let it go at that. If you don't respect a contribution you should be able to voice that without it becoming personal. Keep the subject yacht design and building.
> 
> I am not optimistic.


You got it Bob. I'll back off.


----------



## Brent Swain

desert rat said:


> This lifeline debate is annoying, to stop you from tipping overboard they should be above your center of gravity, your solar plexas. To me that seems impractical.


The closer it gets to your centre of gravity ( the higher) the less the odds of your going overboard. Crotch height is a huge improvement over knee height. Try both heights, for a comparison.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> I also seriously doubt that a boat designed by Bob and built essentially no expense spared by Markos would disappoint anyone.


They continue to disapoint those who get conned into believing that those super expensive priorities are mandatory, before you can go cruising ,then later find people out cruising for decades, in simpler, more affordable boats, while they wasted decades paying for disinformation. One should never lose sight of what a cruising boat is for.
Efficiency is the ratio betwen pleasure and displeasure ( time spent doing things you would rather be doing , like cruising, instead of that you would rather not be doing , like working)


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
Put the bottle down. Your spelling is atrocious. Or you are so angry you can't see straight.

For some odd reason I'm thinking about families and Darwin right now. I won't elaborate.

I think I'll bow out now and do something fun.


----------



## jak3b

What kind of idiot stands up on deck when green water is coming on board?.I dont care if they are 10" or 10 feet high.People get washed off big ships and trawlers all the time and they have 5' bulwarks.For all your vast experience you say things that are absolutley non sensical sometimes.If your heeled way over from big seas your 'fence' is going to be angled way over anyway.Glad you think BC is Paradise, for gawds sakes stay there.


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## Brent Swain

*Re: Gilbert Caroff / Duflos*



PCP said:


> Have also a look at this one: Not bad for amateurs:
> 
> Velero Simbad: El "Simbad"
> 
> Velero Simbad: Nueva web de Gilbert Caroff
> 
> I find the design more modern even if I don't like the hull. It is an old design from an old designer, Gilbert Caroff. He has much better than that. He is certainly among the ones that have more boats built by amateurs in steel and aluminum (also built professionally). I see lots of them cruising here, mostly home built.
> 
> GILBERT CAROFF-DUFLOS - ARCHITECTURE NAVALE
> 
> Hundreds of designed boats, sailed everywhere from the Arctic to the Antarctic. Several expedition sailboats.
> 
> A nicer one, the Chatam 43:
> 
> Chatam 43 voilier en acier a l´unite
> 
> Here the building of a Chatam 40. Amazing amateur boat building quality :
> 
> Sur la mer avec "boulal" - sortie du hangar et mise à l'eau | boulal.travelblog.fr
> 
> Sur la mer avec "boulal" - construction | boulal.travelblog.fr
> 
> Here a 37 in steel being built. Also a nice design:
> 
> Notre bateau
> 
> Another one:
> 
> Photos 1
> 
> And another one, a 33ft (alu):
> 
> Preparatifs
> 
> Some pictures:


Nice paint jobs , nice interiors , but the hull shapes on the first two are the most butt ugly boats imaginable.


----------



## Don L

edgy, like the new Cadillacs


----------



## Brent Swain

*Re: Gilbert Caroff / Duflos*



PCP said:


> Not true at all. I posted several steel boats on this thread without chines but they were not home built. Fact is that chines make the building much easier for an amateur and many (relatively) modern designs for the amateur boat builder have chines because they make building easier.
> 
> The previous post is about one of the most popular European designers for steel amateur boat building Gilbert Caroff, an old and famous one. In this case chines have not to do with a better performance but regarding making building easier. Even professional boat builders like Alubat - OVNI (alu) use chines as a building technique to make the boats easier to build and therefore cheaper since they, if well designed they don't take too much performance on a sailingboat (the ones that are not used expressly to increase performance on an otherwise rounded hull).
> 
> More about Caroff in a thread in MetalBoatbuilding:
> 
> *"Gilbert Caroff (now semi-retired) has about 5000 boats of his design in the water, motor boats, canal boats and sailboats. He has made a speciality in exploratory and polar sailboats. He is well know for being the architect with the highest number of "civil" sailboat that have gone to the north pole, the antartic, and that have spend years in the ice and some even did the travel around the world through the north pole passages."*
> 
> MetalBoatbuilding.org ? View topic - Gilbert Caroff-Duflos
> 
> Here, have a good look at a nice one with a rounded steel one, a Radford design. The difference is that for doing it this way you need a much more complex steel structure before putting the plates in. I am sure Brent or Mike can explain this to you in a much better way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The same hull in an aluminium version:
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Nice to see such huge single plates used in a hull , the key to keeping a metal boat fair. Such longitudilal curves add greatly to resistance to distortion. There does look like a bit of oil caning in the stern . Is that due to lack of longitudinals there? That does look like a radiused chine aft with asmal radius. Had they gone conic like they have in the bow , distortion would have ben emiminated there.
A clipper bow is one of the hardest shapes to keep fair. Convex stems simply put more round in the topsides there, greatly improving fairness. A slight outward curve in the stem makes it far easier to keep things fair there.The one bow plate below the waterline is similar to the shape I use.

It takes someone with hands on expereince in what metal will or wont do easily, to design a boat with such simple plating , something I have been trying to point out all along.


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> .
> 
> Deck edges and center-lines, keels and chines, coach roof sides.. whatever, are all longitudinal structures and are always considered so. Classification society rules even define how much of the chine you can count , what angle it needs to be to be considered structural and what the plate thickness should be in way of the chine if you use the chine as a longitudinal. All structural calculations take curvature into account. It's even in the class scantling calculations and has been for decades and you have had all this pointed out to you before.


 On BD.net they spoke lovingly of Lloyds Rules and ABYC while stating that one doesnt even consider the strength added by curves, while the other considers curves to give a maximum increase in strength of 15%. That is like claiming that a square oxygen bottle need only be 15% thicker to have the same strength as a round one! What a crock!
On that site, all but one of the people ridiculing what I have been doing, had almost zero experience in steel boat buiding, and the one who had some, had only limited coastal cruising experience. When asked he was th eonly one who responded.The rest were silent, indicating zero. Everyone in history who has come up with a new and better way of doing things has been ridiculed . Copernicus, Galileo, Columbus, Da Vinci , etc were all ridiculed by lesser men. The guy who suggested, in the1840s, that doctors should wash their hands after handling corpses, before getting involved in childbirth, was ridiculed for the rest of his life. So I am in good company. The only way to avoid ever getting ridiculed is to never come up with anything new, nor challenge in any way how things are being done, which is ,sadly ,how many people avoid ridicule. I prefer to leave such cowardice to lesser souls.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> I cant think of anyone, especially married guys ,I would want to trade places with .


Alone on a small boat with no-one to give a $hit whether you are alive or dead - true paradise.

Sounds like you're going to end up as one of those newspaper stories where some poor bastard finds you a week dead on your boat.

Paradise - maybe for a hermit.

You'll appreciate a Bertrand Russel (IIRC) quote I read;

Bigamy is having one too many wives - the same as monogamy.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> They continue to disapoint those who get conned into believing that those super expensive priorities are mandatory, before you can go cruising ,then later find people out cruising for decades, in simpler, more affordable boats, while they wasted decades paying for disinformation. One should never lose sight of what a cruising boat is for.
> Efficiency is the ratio betwen pleasure and displeasure ( time spent doing things you would rather be doing , like cruising, instead of that you would rather not be doing , like working)


You assume that everyone who buys a sailboat wants to go cruising - most don't, myself included. 3 or 4 days is plenty for me and then I want to do some other stuff for a while. I have virtually zero desire to live on a boat.

An analogy to your attitude would be that everyone who buys a high performance car wants to go racing - not so. Many people, myself included, just appreciate and enjoy nice things. I wouldn't be satisfied driving an old pickup.

It's apparent that you don't - utility seems to be the only virtue you subscribe to.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Looked back at construction details. Believe my hull deck is glassed in as well. Only water I've ever seen in the boat is from the groove in the mast and that only when the boat is in a slip facing stern to the wind in the rain.
> Unfortunately JonB is right. You just can't get Brent to face reality. It's psychotic to try. One of the definitions of psychosis is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. To get Brent to realize there are Yugos and Mercedes. Lots of 20 year old MBs on the road doing just fine.


As Hal Roth pointed out ,its where all the holes for toe rails and tracks go thru ,which do the leaking.
I remember him doing a show in Vancouver after his Pacific circumnavigation, in which he complained about deck leaks .After the show, he said 'Any questions. " The first one , someone said "WHAT? YOU HAD DECK LEAKS? ON A FIBREGLASSS BOAT?" 
Everyone else roared with laughter !


----------



## SloopJonB

jak3b said:


> What kind of idiot stands up on deck when green water is coming on board?.I dont care if they are 10" or 10 feet high.People get washed off big ships and trawlers all the time and they have 5' bulwarks.For all your vast experience you say things that are absolutley non sensical sometimes.If your heeled way over from big seas your 'fence' is going to be angled way over anyway.*Glad you think BC is Paradise, for gawds sakes stay there.*




Hey!  What'd we ever do to you.


----------



## SloopJonB

*Re: Gilbert Caroff / Duflos*



Brent Swain said:


> Nice paint jobs , nice interiors , but the hull shapes on the first two are the most butt ugly boats imaginable.


I doubt anybody will argue you're an expert on that point.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> No Out. No second hull yet. Thanks for the kind words. I'm a bear to work with.
> We'd have a ball.
> 
> Dean:
> I think you would be very surprised to learn just how little the "designer of record" has to do with the structure of most of these boats. I've been there many times. Once you hand over the drawings you lose control. any of these builders want hull lines, keel and rudder lines and a sail plan. They will take it from there.
> I had zero to do with the structrures of all the Islander Yachts I did. They didn't even ask.


Here's the quote Bob, in which you claim to have little to do with structural, or anything more than basic shape.


----------



## slap

Brent Swain said:


> Everyone in history who has come up with a new and better way of doing things has been ridiculed . Copernicus, Galileo, Columbus, Da Vinci , etc were all ridiculed by lesser men.


"But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Brent:
> Your spelling is atrocious.


Now that's what I call harsh criticism!


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Everyone in history who has come up with a new and better way of doing things has been ridiculed .


That assumes your origami process is "better" than all other forms of boatbuilding when in fact it is only simpler. It also sacrifices almost all style for simplicity and practicality.

Many of us want more than the basics - "Give me the luxuries and I'll do without the necessities".


----------



## bobperry

"the most butt ugly boats imaginable."

Well you would be the expert there Brent.

I fidnd them less than attractive but far better looking than anything you haver done.
Care to post one of your that looks better?
I'll wait.
I'll go make some bread.
I'll go watch some paint dry.


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
That was regarding the Islander Yachts series. You seem to want to apply it to everything I have done. Do I need to post more construction drawings? They will only succeed in making you feel more inadequate. Islander always did their own engineering. This is common with almost every high production boat builder. But how would you know BS? You have never designed a grp boat so by your own definition you would know nothing about the process. You have never designed a production yacht. You design backyard boats.

For the record our "basic" set plan provided to Islander would have included: 
Hull lines
Keel lines
Ballast
Rudder lines
Deck lines
Interior layout
Interior inboard profiles
Interior joiner sections
tank layout
Prop shaft strut
Deck plan
Deck gear schedule
Deck details
Sail plan
Rigging plan.
Often a detail drawings or two or three of various areas.

Any owner of one of my design can buy a complete set of plan for their boat for around $500. On my bigger designs where there may be 20 or more sheets of drawings the cost will be around $1,000. I am selling plans to boat owners all the time.

And, once again Brent your reading comprehension fails you. I asked you to provide the quote where I said wood and grp boats wers stronger than steel boats.


----------



## jak3b

SloopJonB said:


> [/I][/B]
> 
> Hey!  What'd we ever do to you.


Sorry!, I didnt mean any offence.BC is beautiful.I have many friends in BC and in the Maritimes.Very cool people.


----------



## Faster

jak3b said:


> Sorry!, I didnt mean any offence.BC is beautiful.I have many friends in BC and in the Maritimes.Very cool people.


.... That's better.......


----------



## outbound

Hey Brent. While back I politely asked you a series of questions. You have yet to do so. Please go back and try. That's what threads are for.
By the way any ocean sailor knows jack lines and harnesses are what to count on to keep you on the boat. Life lines are to steady yourself so you don't fall.
By the way taking an outbound from bvi to Bahamas. Getting plane in am. Nicer than bcc this time of year. No leaks except off the stern at night. Bye now.


----------



## jak3b

Yeah, Im still waiting for the pic of the fleet of his boats in Cabo and all the happy builder- sailors flippin the bird to those ship swindlers and disinformation agents.


----------



## PCP

*Re: Gilbert Caroff / Duflos*



Brent Swain said:


> Nice paint jobs , nice interiors , but the hull shapes on the first two are the most butt ugly boats imaginable.




http://www.caroff-duflos-architecture-naval.com/fichier_associe/chatam_37.pdf



http://www.caroff-duflos-architecture-naval.com/fichier_associe/chatam_40.pdf

You find the Chatam 37 ad 40 ugly? Well I cannot say that I find them very beautiful but I normally don't find beautiful old hulls and these designs have many years, more than 20 if I am not wrong, but I find them remarkably modern for their time. The designer is really old and is semi-retired now but those designs continue to be built all over the world.

Certainly it is (was) a great design and those boats have navigated extensively, circumnavigated and sailed on the Arctic and Antarctic. Certainly the hulls work fine otherwise they would not have been built in so large numbers. The French are quite picky in what regards sailing performance and have a huge number of options in what regards boats and Nas.

In what regards aesthetics it is a more subjective matter but I would say that they are beautiful to many otherwise he would not have about 6000 boats of his design sailing the oceans and the Chatam series are one of the more popular series.

He seems to care a lot more regarding how his boats look than you, or at least is what seems to me.

Regards

Paulo


----------



## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> On BD.net they spoke lovingly of Lloyds Rules and ABYC while stating that one doesnt even consider the strength added by curves, while the other considers curves to give a maximum increase in strength of 15%. That is like claiming that a square oxygen bottle need only be 15% thicker to have the same strength as a round one! What a crock!
> On that site, all but one of the people ridiculing what I have been doing, had almost zero experience in steel boat buiding, and the one who had some, had only limited coastal cruising experience. When asked he was th eonly one who responded.The rest were silent, indicating zero. Everyone in history who has come up with a new and better way of doing things has been ridiculed . Copernicus, Galileo, Columbus, Da Vinci , etc were all ridiculed by lesser men. The guy who suggested, in the1840s, that doctors should wash their hands after handling corpses, before getting involved in childbirth, was ridiculed for the rest of his life. So I am in good company. The only way to avoid ever getting ridiculed is to never come up with anything new, nor challenge in any way how things are being done, which is ,sadly ,how many people avoid ridicule. I prefer to leave such cowardice to lesser souls.


There are a dozen experienced yacht designers/naval architects/engineers several pro boatbuilders experienced in steel and numerous amateurs including coded welders with more knowledge than you, who either built or are building their own steel boats. They all universally condemned your ignorance and your hubris.

All class societies allow for curvature in effective thickness. As they allow a chine , deck edge cabin side etc to be counted as a girder. You don't seem to get this. They count all these things and still require transverse structures. And that's based on thorough analysis, the problem with thin shells ( boat hulls) is that they are thin relative to curvature and buckle easily. The amount of thickness you can reduce for curvature is carefully calculated relative to buckling criteria. What external pressure will start to collapse the hull. When you build to class rules that's inherent in the scantling requirements. If you custom design you should be able to state the head of water the structure will stand.

Even your own client feedback runs counter to your made up engineering. Here Tom who made the mistake of building to your plans isn't too happy with your engineering. To quote Tom's massage to you again which you simply ignored :

*"Case and point my plans on the 26 showed no cabin beams or longs in the cabin and I questioned you on it and you stated it didn't need any because the camber of the roof gave it great strength. Why is it that after it was all welded up I could walk on the roof and rock up on the ball of my feet and bow in the roof and bulge out the cabin sides at the same time? Also what would happen if I had left it that way and took a big wave over the top?"*

Tom ditched his BS design sold it and bought proper plans from a reputable designer and has built a better designed steel boat.

So it's not only the knowledgeable designers and engineers who try to tell you have it wrong but your clients as well. And you still won't accept you have it wrong.


----------



## bobperry

I find those boats very nice looking and obviously designed to sail well.
There is no comparison to what BS has to offer. It is day and night.

But, what would I know.


----------



## blt2ski

bobperry said:


> I find those boats very nice looking and obviously designed to sail well.
> There is no comparison to what BS has to offer. It is day and night.
> 
> But, what would I know.


Can you make a good drink? Play a gee-tar? singing I know is out.........

a nice designed boat.........

Time for bed, 1400 miles of driving hte last 4 days, I'm pooped and probably not making any sense after dinner and a measly glass of vino.....

BUT I get to go skiing tomorrow! yee haw!

Marty


----------



## jak3b

"And, once again Brent your reading comprehension fails you. I asked you to provide the quote where I said wood and grp boats wers stronger than steel boats. "


Maybe it was the boxing or he banged his to many times on his indestructable, magic, stability inducing wheel house.Its amazing.George Bernard Shaw or James Joyce said of someone he didnt like " He has an unfortunate personality".


----------



## Brent Swain

jak3b said:


> "And, once again Brent your reading comprehension fails you. I asked you to provide the quote where I said wood and grp boats wers stronger than steel boats. "
> 
> Maybe it was the boxing or he banged his to many times on his indestructable, magic, stability inducing wheel house.Its amazing.George Bernard Shaw or James Joyce said of someone he didnt like " He has an unfortunate personality".


 Go back and read thru the posts, where several people, not necessarily you, have freequently claimed that wood and plastic boats were stronger than steel.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> That assumes your origami process is "better" than all other forms of boatbuilding when in fact it is only simpler. It also sacrifices almost all style for simplicity and practicality.
> 
> Many of us want more than the basics - "Give me the luxuries and I'll do without the necessities".


Mine sacrifice little in the way of aesthetics ( Nowhere near as ugly as a Beneteu or Hunter, or the yellow and gray multi chine steel boats recently posted) for simplicity , strength seaworthines and safety.

Others sacrifice safety ,strength, practicality and seaworthines for style , and flash in the pan trendyness.
The former are the priorities of experienced cruisers, who actually make it off the treadmill early ,and go cruising for more than a 3 year stint. The latter are the priorites of beginners. Luxuries can be added later ,as you feel the need. Meanwhile, get cruising.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Hey Brent. While back I politely asked you a series of questions. You have yet to do so. Please go back and try. That's what threads are for.
> By the way any ocean sailor knows jack lines and harnesses are what to count on to keep you on the boat. Life lines are to steady yourself so you don't fall.
> By the way taking an outbound from bvi to Bahamas. Getting plane in am. Nicer than bcc this time of year. No leaks except off the stern at night. Bye now.


I answered them. I guess the answers went right over your head. I aint used to shooting any lower.
Most intelligent cruisers would rather stay on deck, behind proper lifelines, than be towed by a harness on jack lines . Proper lifelines make that the case, and have for my 40 years of cruising. I've never been towed by a jackline . That doesn't sound anywhere near as much fun as staying on deck, nor as good seamanship. Prevention is better seamanship.
Offshore, I rig a chest high lifeline ,from chest high on my upper shrouds, to my canopy aft ,then down to my bow pulpit foreward. It doesnt get in the way, in any way. In port I take it down.
Smack suggested that it is easier to fall under an intemediate lifeline 17 inches above the decks, than to fall over one 24 inches above the decks. Are you gullible enough to believe that?
After he claimed that the minimum height for safe lifelines is 36 inches?
Then he claimed that his (Proper) 24 inch high lifelines require you to crawl around on your decks, like a sewer rat. Duuuhhh!!! How many cruisers do you see crawling around their decks like a sewer rat? How many would prefer a boat which requires that, instead of being able to walk safely?

I just checked the lifelines on a 35 ft Beneteau. 25 inches above the decks! Duuuhhh!!!


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> "the most butt ugly boats imaginable."
> 
> Well you would be the expert there Brent.
> 
> I fidnd them less than attractive but far better looking than anything you haver done.
> Care to post one of your that looks better?
> I'll wait.
> I'll go make some bread.
> I'll go watch some paint dry.


The photos section of the origamiboats site is full of brentboats which are far better loking than those, and far better looking than a tubby Tayana.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> Alone on a small boat with no-one to give a $hit whether you are alive or dead - true paradise.
> 
> Sounds like you're going to end up as one of those newspaper stories where some poor bastard finds you a week dead on your boat.
> 
> Paradise - maybe for a hermit.
> 
> You'll appreciate a Bertrand Russel (IIRC) quote I read;
> 
> Bigamy is having one too many wives - the same as monogamy.


I have many friends to visit in most of the ports I visit. The last one I spent any time, in I was surrounded by 9 of my boats , all gratefull for what I had done for them. Got invited aboard daily. 
I get to pick and choose how much time I spend with people. Landlubers dont always have that option. I turned over a huge amount of work people wanted me to do, to younger cruisers this past year.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> I had a builder of stewed boats tell me once that round bilge was easier than radiused chine. Not sure those are the same hulls Paulo posted. The alu one appears to have a chine aft. But it could just be a reflection I'm seeing. The steel boat certainly shows no chine.


A builder of "Stewed" boats? Sounds like some real hot boats! And Bob cricizes my typing? Bob has given us many more examples of his typing skills.
My boat has a radiused chine, as have several more of my boats. Its not all that hard to do ,after the hull has been pulled together , and braced across the cutout for the radiused parts. Its only 14 feet of chine per side, in a 36 footer.An extra week of work , altho few have considerd the advantage worth the trouble . With chines entirely below the waterline ,the aesthetic advantage would be minimal. With the water flow at that point being almost paralell with the chines, a small radius would be just as effective as a large one, for reduction of turbulance. As, if the boat were to go aground ,that would be one of only two points which would touch , in most cases, using a far heavier plate there would be a good idea. A heavier plate there would also reduce the odds of distortion.
A round bilge easier to build than a raduised chine? Bob, you are making a fool of yourself , again!


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Go back and read thru the posts, where several people, not necessarily you, have freequently claimed that wood and plastic boats were stronger than steel.


I've only seen people state that *"Pound for pound"* they are - which they are.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Mine sacrifice little in the way of aesthetics ( Nowhere near as ugly as a Beneteu or Hunter, or the yellow and gray multi chine steel boats recently posted)


Eye of the beholder I guess. Maybe we should have a poll.



> Meanwhile, get cruising.


As I said earlier, I don't want to. I can imagine little that I would find more boring than spending weeks crossing an ocean in a small boat. I guess I just don't have a Gypsy soul.

Or maybe I just don't feel the need to leave here to go somewhere else that is unlikely to be more beautiful.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> I think this photo shows how fair our PSC hull is taken out of a CNC female mold.
> Look at the reflection of the gang in the topsides.


Friends were quoted $40K (ie giving up ten years of cruising funds)to put a finish like that on one of my boats.They laughed, and opted for the ten years of cruising, instead of blowing money and playtime to impress inexperienced, naive people with landlubber priorities. Sailing is more fun.
People with little cruising experence have nothing else to judge a boat by but shinyness. They have no hands on experience with practical considerations.
Such priorities are landlubber values , defined as "spending money you dont have, to buy things you dont need, to impress people you dont like."

I'd rather be sailing!
I once had a bumper sticker which read ."Work is for people who dont know how to sail"


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> The photos section of the origamiboats site is full of brentboats which are far better loking far better looking than a tubby Tayana.


That is what is known in literature as *Hubris*


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> I am not capable of designing for unskilled home builders. Dudley Dix is very good at that.


We agree on that. You are not capable of designing for home builders. I think designing for home builders requires the designer to have been a home builder, and worked on back yard boats. Steel is far easier for unskilled home builders to deal with than plastic. Its far more forgiving, quicker , and far cheaper. 
We are definitely not in the same market.


----------



## SloopJonB

Cruising on $4K a year? I presume that all happened in the 70's. Or earlier - I remember books in the late 60's with titles like *Europe on $10 a day*. That was $3650 a year 45 years ago, with no boat to keep up and was directed at starving students backpacking and hitchhiking their way around.

Nowadays you'd have to work very hard at living cheap to last more than 3 years on $40K.


----------



## bobperry

"Go back and read thru the posts, where several people, not necessarily you, have freequently claimed that wood and plastic boats were stronger than steel. "

You see Brent, there you go again. You clearly post that I said that. Then you post that "not necessarily you" said that. You just invent quotes to suit and in doing so you make yourself out to be a liar and with no help from anyone else you destroy your credibility.

I'm sure 95% of the "facts" you post are pure BS.

"Mine sacrifice little in the way of aesthetics "
But Brent your eye for aesthetics is severely deficient. Why should anyone pay attention to what you think is good looking when our own boats are living proof that you have no eye for aesthetics. We can plainly see what you think "good looking" is.


----------



## MikeJohns

bobperry said:


> ..................
> But Brent your eye for aesthetics is severely deficient. Why should anyone pay attention to what you think is good looking when our own boats are living proof that you have no eye for aesthetics. We can plainly see what you think "good looking" is.


Care and craftsmanship and Brent are not bedfellows. For Brent to comment on aesthetics is a joke.

When you look closely at Brent's boat building you quickly see he's not at all interested in quality or longevity, only speed of construction. In the process he hacks a hull together with the poorest quality you will ever see from a boat builder. His detailing is abysmal and his welding is shocking which is why he's so fast.

A good impartial comment from an intelligent observer ( Another Tom not the same one who found Brent cabin tops deficient in my last post )) is worth reading. It's a response to viewing the promotional origami video where Brent puts Alex's boat together. This video sent what are best described as shock waves through the steel boat building community as Brent hacks the boat together with no symmetry and ill fiting parts and the worst welding you will ever witness. This puts it quite succinctly:

*What struck me the most was the incredible lack of care and craftsmanship Brent showed in building Alex's hull and the utter illogicality of it. It was stunning. I mean, he's been hired to build someone's dream boat, presumably because they don't have the knowledge and experience to do it themselves which means they're putting their faith in his abilities. He's the "professional" in this equation and his customers are hanging their hopes and dreams on him. In this case he was hired to build ON VIDEO; there's $10k worth of material sitting on the ground&#8230; and he set about butchering it in a slapdash fashion that would get him fired from any jobsite in the world. I was amazed. I wouldn't put together a barnyard gate without grinding the torch cut edges but Brent apparently builds entire hulls that way. It's incredibly bad practice and there's absolutely no reason for it. Brent, your "cost of labour" excuse doesn't fly because if money was an issue you could have simply had Alex grind the plate edges himself and call you when he was done, it would've taken a day; but of course you didn't and he didn't know any better. Your "6011 burns through slag" excuse is baloney, yeah it does but the likelihood of slag inclusions is far greater than with clean edges and since below the waterline welds are pretty damn critical what on earth is wrong with doing the safest, soundest job possible? Are you seriously going to argue that spending an extra day grinding is going to "cost someone their cruising dreams"? What a tired meme.

When you drew the plate shapes it looks like you mostly eyeballed it with with a batten which explains why the edges didn't match up when you pulled them together to create the half-hulls, and why you had to cut an oblong piece out on each side to get the edges to match up. Assuming your drawings are accurate Alex could have lofted the plate shapes himself and done a perfect job of it but he apparently didn't know any better and you're on video telling him it's totally normal, nothing to worry about. Who knows what that did to the lines of that boat compared to "as designed", again assuming your drawings are accurate.

When you joined the half-hulls you apparently didn't join them at the same relative point at the stem because once the centerline was welded up one half-hull had a noticeable overhang at the stern which you simply cut off. You also had to warp the bow over to one side with a come-a-long to get the stem to match up. In your book you write "If the plate for one side of the hull matches perfectly the plate for the other side of the hull - and they all attach to one another at the same relative points, it's geometrically impossible for the hull to be anything but symmetrical" Well, by the same principle that hull is permanently warped, for no good reason. How much effort would it have been to take a piece of string and measure down each half-hull at the stem and scribe an accurate mark for joining them? Apparently too much. I'm running out of adjectives to describe how bad your work is here but suffice it to say; if I had welded a truck body that was 2" out of square when I was working that job I'd have had to fix it. If I'd tried to argue that it didn't matter because it's "just a truck box" I would have been fired and rightly so. You only get away with this appalling standard of work because you prey on people who don't know any better.

That brings me to the worst part of this whole thing. Throughout the whole video you can feel Alex's enthusiasm about getting his boat built and thinking he's getting a good deal. I feel sorry for him because he seems like a nice guy who deserved a lot better. It's sad that he's tied his name to your "work". You're constantly going around accusing people of taking advantage of other people's ignorance to make a buck but it is you who does this very thing constantly! It's your entire business model! Your economics are provably false. What sound money saving advice you give (building your own deck hardware, used engines, etc.) is hardly exclusive to origami building. Your wacky class warfare narrative is illogical and I think it's only an excuse to feed your messiah complex. I feel bad for anyone who has fallen under your spell, I would have if I wasn't lucky enough to have some fabrication background. It was the video that gave me pause, I couldn't trust someone who did work like that, I wasn't even aware of the structural issues until I started reading these threads. Like most people who read your book I have no engineering background at all so your structural approach sounded logical. But even I can easily follow the thought experiments that the professionals on here have posted (thank you!) and see where you are in error; which makes your profound incuriosity all the more troubling. And it's all so senseless because none of the people who know are saying origami in itself is a bad idea but you're wedded to your narrative and apparently determined to stay out there on your branch; sawing away&#8230;*
reproduced from: Origami steel yacht construction - Page 24 - Boat Design Forums

I posted some stills of his fit-up and welding here:
Origami steel yacht construction - Page 18 - Boat Design Forums


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Friends were quoted $40K (ie giving up ten years of cruising funds)...


This is actually helpful - to see Brent's general calculus on the cost of building one of his boats.

So, cruising wannabe, it will take _at least _10 years of cruising funds out of your kitty and, judging by the average time for people building these boats (from their blogs, etc.), another 3-10 years of your life for the build (PLUS the money to support yourself during those years).

All this _before you ever splash the thing and actually start cruising_. It's a horrible way to go.

It makes far more sense to buy one of the many, many used fiberglass boats on the market and just get out there and do it. You'll save TONS of money and hardship.

And the chances of you hitting Fukushima Debris and sinking are about the same as stepping off the curb in front of a bus. Do you stay awake at night and worry about that? I didn't think so

If you _are_ super paranoid, there are plenty of BS Yachts on the market that you could pick up for less than $20K!! That's dirt cheap - if you can live with the roughness! Sure, the people who actually built it will be losing their shirts - but at least _you_ won't be the sucker.

I think Brent himself says it best:



Brent Swain said:


> I'd rather be sailing!
> I once had a bumper sticker which read ."Work is for people who dont know how to sail"


Building a boat is a hell of a lot of work. So listen to the man! Buy a used boat, and go sail. Never build one. That's just insane.


----------



## smackdaddy

MikeJohns said:


> Care and craftsmanship and Brent are not bedfellows. For Brent to comment on aesthetics is a joke.
> 
> When you look closely at Brent's boat building you quickly see he's not at all interested in quality or longevity, only speed of construction. In the process he hacks a hull together with the poorest quality you will ever see from a boat builder. His detailing is abysmal and his welding is shocking which is why he's so fast.
> 
> A good impartial comment from an intelligent observer ( Another Tom not the same one who found Brent cabin tops deficient in my last post )) is worth reading. It's a response to viewing the promotional origami video where Brent puts Alex's boat together. This video sent what are best described as shock waves through the steel boat building community as Brent hacks the boat together with no symmetry and ill fiting parts and the worst welding you will ever witness. This puts it quite succinctly:
> 
> *What struck me the most was the incredible lack of care and craftsmanship Brent showed in building Alex's hull and the utter illogicality of it. It was stunning. I mean, he's been hired to build someone's dream boat, presumably because they don't have the knowledge and experience to do it themselves which means they're putting their faith in his abilities. He's the "professional" in this equation and his customers are hanging their hopes and dreams on him. In this case he was hired to build ON VIDEO; there's $10k worth of material sitting on the ground&#8230; and he set about butchering it in a slapdash fashion that would get him fired from any jobsite in the world. I was amazed. I wouldn't put together a barnyard gate without grinding the torch cut edges but Brent apparently builds entire hulls that way. It's incredibly bad practice and there's absolutely no reason for it. Brent, your "cost of labour" excuse doesn't fly because if money was an issue you could have simply had Alex grind the plate edges himself and call you when he was done, it would've taken a day; but of course you didn't and he didn't know any better. Your "6011 burns through slag" excuse is baloney, yeah it does but the likelihood of slag inclusions is far greater than with clean edges and since below the waterline welds are pretty damn critical what on earth is wrong with doing the safest, soundest job possible? Are you seriously going to argue that spending an extra day grinding is going to "cost someone their cruising dreams"? What a tired meme.
> 
> When you drew the plate shapes it looks like you mostly eyeballed it with with a batten which explains why the edges didn't match up when you pulled them together to create the half-hulls, and why you had to cut an oblong piece out on each side to get the edges to match up. Assuming your drawings are accurate Alex could have lofted the plate shapes himself and done a perfect job of it but he apparently didn't know any better and you're on video telling him it's totally normal, nothing to worry about. Who knows what that did to the lines of that boat compared to "as designed", again assuming your drawings are accurate.
> 
> When you joined the half-hulls you apparently didn't join them at the same relative point at the stem because once the centerline was welded up one half-hull had a noticeable overhang at the stern which you simply cut off. You also had to warp the bow over to one side with a come-a-long to get the stem to match up. In your book you write "If the plate for one side of the hull matches perfectly the plate for the other side of the hull - and they all attach to one another at the same relative points, it's geometrically impossible for the hull to be anything but symmetrical" Well, by the same principle that hull is permanently warped, for no good reason. How much effort would it have been to take a piece of string and measure down each half-hull at the stem and scribe an accurate mark for joining them? Apparently too much. I'm running out of adjectives to describe how bad your work is here but suffice it to say; if I had welded a truck body that was 2" out of square when I was working that job I'd have had to fix it. If I'd tried to argue that it didn't matter because it's "just a truck box" I would have been fired and rightly so. You only get away with this appalling standard of work because you prey on people who don't know any better.
> 
> That brings me to the worst part of this whole thing. Throughout the whole video you can feel Alex's enthusiasm about getting his boat built and thinking he's getting a good deal. I feel sorry for him because he seems like a nice guy who deserved a lot better. It's sad that he's tied his name to your "work". You're constantly going around accusing people of taking advantage of other people's ignorance to make a buck but it is you who does this very thing constantly! It's your entire business model! Your economics are provably false. What sound money saving advice you give (building your own deck hardware, used engines, etc.) is hardly exclusive to origami building. Your wacky class warfare narrative is illogical and I think it's only an excuse to feed your messiah complex. I feel bad for anyone who has fallen under your spell, I would have if I wasn't lucky enough to have some fabrication background. It was the video that gave me pause, I couldn't trust someone who did work like that, I wasn't even aware of the structural issues until I started reading these threads. Like most people who read your book I have no engineering background at all so your structural approach sounded logical. But even I can easily follow the thought experiments that the professionals on here have posted (thank you!) and see where you are in error; which makes your profound incuriosity all the more troubling. And it's all so senseless because none of the people who know are saying origami in itself is a bad idea but you're wedded to your narrative and apparently determined to stay out there on your branch; sawing away&#8230;*
> reproduced from: Origami steel yacht construction - Page 24 - Boat Design Forums
> 
> I posted some stills of his fit-up and welding here:
> Origami steel yacht construction - Page 18 - Boat Design Forums


This is actually the best write up I've seen thus far of Brent's methods - with actual proof from the DVD and his book.

Apart from the fun back-and-forth with Brent in this thread - there is a much bigger issue. I actually think he is dangerous. Seriously. He presents himself as a professional, as is stated above, to newbs who don't know any better. Those people turn to Brent purely because of cost and "speed" - and because of his assurance he's got the answers. They seem to think they have no other choice. And, being complete amateurs, they can't see what the ACTUAL professionals see in his sub-par methods. The newbs believe him. And, after everything I've seen in this thread, I honestly think that's dangerous.









_Brent's own build quality for his customer._

That's why I just can't stay away. It's not about arguing yacht design (which I'm certainly not qualified to do) - it's about making sure people know that, as shown by the pros who know, Brent's advice and methods appear to be far from professional. No newb should have to learn that the hard way.

For me, this is the real take-away from all this BS Yachts debate:



> *You're constantly going around accusing people of taking advantage of other people's ignorance to make a buck but it is you who does this very thing constantly! It's your entire business model!*


Caveat Emptor.


----------



## bobperry

Smackers/John:
I think that is an amazing testimony to what some of us have been trying to say all along.
It's quite depressing.

On a happier note:
I picked up my "intern" at the airport this morning. His family is world cruising in their Halberg-Rassy and Will flew here from Panama to do two weeks of intensive, often abusive, work with me. I have a 16 year old kid in the house, again. How lucky can one man be? Photos to follow. I am already making him wear a Scottish bonnet. The poor kid is freezing. I gave him one of my Pendleton shirts to wear and for God's sake, some socks.


----------



## sortant

After sitting in my backyard fir over 15 years thought it time to remove and replace metal. Keel has 6000 lbs lead. Used tire weights with metal clips melted off poured in.


----------



## smackdaddy

sortant said:


> After sitting in my backyard fir over 15 years thought it time to remove and replace metal. Keel has 6000 lbs lead. Used tire weights with metal clips melted off poured in.


Hey sort - welcome to SN.

What design is that?

Did you start building her back then? If so, how much time would you say you have into her thus far?


----------



## bobperry

Hey Sort, we feel your pain and we are here to help.
So that may be your newest big problem.


----------



## smackdaddy

Well, it looks like everyone is dumping their BS Yacht:

36' Brent Swain Steel Cruising Sailboat

Does this kind of quality really justify Fukushima Fear?



















This is a "2000" model for crying out loud (11 years younger than my Hunter)...



> The boat was lanched in 2000.


Ouch.

Asking $40K ($15K less than the owner of my Hunter was asking). We'll see what he actually gets. There are other BS Yachts still on the market for right around $20K. Of course, this one has very "yachty" granite counters in the galley:


----------



## chall03

WOW.

That granite really does offset the rot.

Refitting Tip: Stolen local park benches make for affordable excellent aft deck seating.

That is I guess a great example there of living the BS dream??

No need to work in those slave factories with those poor wretched indoctrinated plastic boat fools.

_*Go now, go rusty, go slow, go alone, go bitter*._

Meanwhile I am real happy to keep working in my hard yet rewarding job, spending _my_ money outfitting the boat I have chosen because it is right for _me_, to a standard that I am proud of. I am not fooled I have consciously decided what I believe are the 'essentials' and 'nice to haves' for the cruising we intend to do and happy to spend our money on both.

By the way - My 3 year old daughter helped me change the engine impeller today. You haven't lived until you have done a boat job with a three year old. We had to stop midway to feed to ducks. We like feeding the ducks. Once we made sure stinky( the engine) was fixed we got a ice cream.

You cruise your way Brent, I am real happy cruising mine.


----------



## bobperry

That is grim. This is a perfect eample of what happens when a home build had inadequate or no design support. He will have trouble selling that boat at any price.
How do you steer the boat? With the BBQ?


----------



## JonEisberg

chall03 said:


> WOW.
> 
> That granite really does offset the rot.
> 
> Refitting Tip: Stolen local park benches make for affordable excellent aft deck seating.
> 
> That is I guess a great example there of living the BS dream??
> 
> No need to work in those slave factories with those poor wretched indoctrinated plastic boat fools.
> 
> _*Go now, go rusty, go slow, go alone, go bitter*._


Can't believe it took me this long to stumble upon this thread...

Pure Platinum, some of the most amusing stuff I've seen in quite some time. I had no idea we had such a visionary in our midst, a veritable modern day self-proclaimed Copernicus of yacht design...

Carry on, gentlemen... Great stuff...



bobperry said:


> That is grim. This is a perfect eample of what happens when a home build had inadequate or no design support. He will have trouble selling that boat at any price.
> *How do you steer the boat? With the BBQ?*


That's a good question... On closer inspection, what I thought was some sort of rudderhead on deck appears to be a winch... Looks to be some sort of outboard rudder connection, the owner is probably diving dumpsters in search of a 5-6' length of black iron pipe to use as a tiller...

Perhaps it's always steered with an AP remote? You've gotta love the convenient placement of the engine controls, no?

UFB...


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
Yes, there is a wealth of entertainment on this thread. You will fit in very well.

Now what I have in mind for you is this:
You buy that steel cruiser and keep it out here near me. The we can get together more often. I'll even help you remount the engine controls. But then we wouild be tampering with the design.


----------



## slap

JonEisberg said:


> Can't believe it took me this long to stumble upon this thread...
> 
> Pure Platinum, some of the most amusing stuff I've seen in quite some time. I had no idea we had such a visionary in our midst, a veritable modern day self-proclaimed Copernicus of yacht design...
> 
> Carry on, gentlemen... Great stuff...


Welcome Jon!

Now, if you have read through this thread and are looking for more, I'd suggest:

Origami steel yacht construction - Boat Design Forums

And:

Swain BS_36 Stability curve - Boat Design Forums

And:

Transverse frame calculation - Boat Design Forums

You will see that Brent has been asked the same questions over and over for years, and will not or cannot answer those questions.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> Cruising on $4K a year? I presume that all happened in the 70's. Or earlier - I remember books in the late 60's with titles like *Europe on $10 a day*. That was $3650 a year 45 years ago, with no boat to keep up and was directed at starving students backpacking and hitchhiking their way around.
> 
> Nowadays you'd have to work very hard at living cheap to last more than 3 years on $40K.


I have been living on less than $4K a year for many years , very comfortably.
No moorage bills, no car to support , no other people to support, no boat yards to support, no heating bills, no water bills, no electricity bills , no Rob Fords to feed, good hunting and fishing. What would I spend money on?


----------



## bobperry

"What would I spend money on? "

Maybe a correspondence course in yacht design.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> "Go back and read thru the posts, where several people, not necessarily you, have freequently claimed that wood and plastic boats were stronger than steel. "
> 
> You see Brent, there you go again. You clearly post that I said that. Then you post that "not necessarily you" said that. You just invent quotes to suit and in doing so you make yourself out to be a liar and with no help from anyone else you destroy your credibility.
> 
> I'm sure 95% of the "facts" you post are pure BS.
> 
> "Mine sacrifice little in the way of aesthetics "
> But Brent your eye for aesthetics is severely deficient. Why should anyone pay attention to what you think is good looking when our own boats are living proof that you have no eye for aesthetics. We can plainly see what you think "good looking" is.


Claiming those yellow and gray multi chine boats are aesthetically pleasing, demonstrates a severe bad eye for aesthetics. A good looking boat is a boat with a good sheerline and profile. That is far more important than bolting expensive dead vegitation on, which looks exactly like brown paint from a few feet away. My boats are far more attractive than the dumpy looking Tayana 37, with bits of dead vegitation bolted all over her, an dour cave like, dark and dank looking teak interiors.
Charging anyone $150 an hour for drawings based on so little hands on building or cruising experience is as deceitful as taking up a collection for someone who makes $150 an hour , who owns his own swimming pool. And they call me a liar and scammer?
Someone who has never built or cruised long term in a steel boat wouldn't know the truth about steel boats if it bit him.


----------



## bobperry

Calm down Brent. Don't be so angry. I might be angry too if I had to live on $4,000 a year. Ugh! But if that's your style it's good you are happy with it. Only you sound far from happy. If you are proud of your body of work why don't you sound happy about it? I'm very happy about my body of work. It brings me satisfaction and I have made a good living while doing it. I know you would like to think your angry words can 
"undo" what I have done but they can't. All you can do now is to continue to whine.
So, whine on. I am working with my intern today so I'll be here to enjoy watching you flail around in your never ending fruitless effort to find credibility by attacking others.


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> Care and craftsmanship and Brent are not bedfellows. For Brent to comment on aesthetics is a joke.
> 
> When you look closely at Brent's boat building you quickly see he's not at all interested in quality or longevity, only speed of construction. In the process he hacks a hull together with the poorest quality you will ever see from a boat builder. His detailing is abysmal and his welding is shocking which is why he's so fast.
> 
> A good impartial comment from an intelligent observer ( Another Tom not the same one who found Brent cabin tops deficient in my last post )) is worth reading. It's a response to viewing the promotional origami video where Brent puts Alex's boat together. This video sent what are best described as shock waves through the steel boat building community as Brent hacks the boat together with no symmetry and ill fitting parts and the worst welding you will ever witness. This puts it quite succinctly:
> 
> *What struck me the most was the incredible lack of care and craftsmanship Brent showed in building Alex's hull and the utter illogicality of it. It was stunning. I mean, he's been hired to build someone's dream boat, presumably because they don't have the knowledge and experience to do it themselves which means they're putting their faith in his abilities. He's the "professional" in this equation and his customers are hanging their hopes and dreams on him. In this case he was hired to build ON VIDEO; there's $10k worth of material sitting on the ground&#8230; and he set about butchering it in a slapdash fashion that would get him fired from any jobsite in the world. I was amazed. I wouldn't put together a barnyard gate without grinding the torch cut edges but Brent apparently builds entire hulls that way. It's incredibly bad practice and there's absolutely no reason for it. Brent, your "cost of labour" excuse doesn't fly because if money was an issue you could have simply had Alex grind the plate edges himself and call you when he was done, it would've taken a day; but of course you didn't and he didn't know any better. Your "6011 burns through slag" excuse is baloney, yeah it does but the likelihood of slag inclusions is far greater than with clean edges and since below the waterline welds are pretty damn critical what on earth is wrong with doing the safest, soundest job possible? Are you seriously going to argue that spending an extra day grinding is going to "cost someone their cruising dreams"? What a tired meme.
> 
> When you drew the plate shapes it looks like you mostly eyeballed it with with a batten which explains why the edges didn't match up when you pulled them together to create the half-hulls, and why you had to cut an oblong piece out on each side to get the edges to match up. Assuming your drawings are accurate Alex could have lofted the plate shapes himself and done a perfect job of it but he apparently didn't know any better and you're on video telling him it's totally normal, nothing to worry about. Who knows what that did to the lines of that boat compared to "as designed", again assuming your drawings are accurate.
> 
> When you joined the half-hulls you apparently didn't join them at the same relative point at the stem because once the centerline was welded up one half-hull had a noticeable overhang at the stern which you simply cut off. You also had to warp the bow over to one side with a come-a-long to get the stem to match up. In your book you write "If the plate for one side of the hull matches perfectly the plate for the other side of the hull - and they all attach to one another at the same relative points, it's geometrically impossible for the hull to be anything but symmetrical" Well, by the same principle that hull is permanently warped, for no good reason. How much effort would it have been to take a piece of string and measure down each half-hull at the stem and scribe an accurate mark for joining them? Apparently too much. I'm running out of adjectives to describe how bad your work is here but suffice it to say; if I had welded a truck body that was 2" out of square when I was working that job I'd have had to fix it. If I'd tried to argue that it didn't matter because it's "just a truck box" I would have been fired and rightly so. You only get away with this appalling standard of work because you prey on people who don't know any better.
> 
> That brings me to the worst part of this whole thing. Throughout the whole video you can feel Alex's enthusiasm about getting his boat built and thinking he's getting a good deal. I feel sorry for him because he seems like a nice guy who deserved a lot better. It's sad that he's tied his name to your "work". You're constantly going around accusing people of taking advantage of other people's ignorance to make a buck but it is you who does this very thing constantly! It's your entire business model! Your economics are provably false. What sound money saving advice you give (building your own deck hardware, used engines, etc.) is hardly exclusive to origami building. Your wacky class warfare narrative is illogical and I think it's only an excuse to feed your messiah complex. I feel bad for anyone who has fallen under your spell, I would have if I wasn't lucky enough to have some fabrication background. It was the video that gave me pause, I couldn't trust someone who did work like that, I wasn't even aware of the structural issues until I started reading these threads. Like most people who read your book I have no engineering background at all so your structural approach sounded logical. But even I can easily follow the thought experiments that the professionals on here have posted (thank you!) and see where you are in error; which makes your profound incuriosity all the more troubling. And it's all so senseless because none of the people who know are saying origami in itself is a bad idea but you're wedded to your narrative and apparently determined to stay out there on your branch; sawing away&#8230;*
> reproduced from: Origami steel yacht construction - Page 24 - Boat Design Forums
> 
> I posted some stills of his fit-up and welding here:
> Origami steel yacht construction - Page 18 - Boat Design Forums


The current owner of that boat is extremely happy with her, and will be building my boats for others from now on. He has just done another 36. You can measure that boat any way you please, and you wont find anything out of line. For joining the two halves,we measured along the stem on each side, and made a mark at the same distance along the curve , from the point of the stem on each side. Then we began pulling the two halves together by first matching up the marks. An optical illusion in the photo made them look different lengths, but double checking the distance of the marks from the stem showed them to be exactly equal. When we pulled the last of the stem together,they matched up perfectly. If one were shorter than the other, there is no way you could compress 3/16th plate on end, yet that is exactly what my half wit critics claimed I did. That they claimed that I made the edge of a 3/16th plate shorter, by forcing it, demonstrates how incredibly dense my critics and their supporters were. Take two plates if different lengths, welded together at one end. How do you make them of equal length? By forcing one to be shorter? That is what Mike is claiming I did! The comments on that site clearly demonstrate that they have absolutely zero metal working experience , nor common sense, nor understanding of sheet material
When the plates are cut out, the slag ends up on the bottom, far easier to grind after the hull has been pulled up and they are off the ground, which is exactly what we did. With the plate on the ground, the only way to grind the part under the plate is to flip it over with a crane , at great expense, to get at a part which will be easy to access once the hull has been pulled together. Squandering money on that kind of foolishness is what makes a boat super expensive and time consuming, stupidity you assume I am dense enough to waste clients time and money on, when you question my building times.
Slag can be easily scrapped off, far more easily that grinding. If you take a big piece of half inch plate with a sheered end, and slide it along the plate until it hits the slag, it neatly sheers the slag off , instantly, far quicker and easier than grinding. If when you cut a piece of steel with a cutting torch, if you slant the torch slightly away from the piece you are keeping, and towards the one which will become scrap, the slag all blows over onto the scrap. I was vehemently attacked for giving these pointers on BD.net, as they automatically attacked every word |I said there.
When I suggested that a hull can be faired from inside, by forcing hollows out with a jack on a telescoping pole with a piece of flatbar , and suggested that when anything is permanently buried in foam, it doesn't matter what it looks like, they attacked me for suggesting that the inside is not as important as avoiding the need for filler outside.
One of my harshest critics Wynand Nortje, claimed that all cuts MUST be ground , on that site ,then on metalboatbuilding.org , he stated that a clean cut needs NO grinding. On BD ,net he said longitudinals should be left free floating in the frames until the plate welding was finished ( the right way to avoid distortion). Then on Metalboatbuilding .org , and his own site, he said they should be fully welded in before plating and plate welding, a huge mistake.He was the only one there with any serious metal boat building experience. Another, Pete Wiley , was building his first metal boat ever , and became an " instant expert " claiming to know more about metal boat building than some one who has built dozens of them over decades, just like the "experts" here.
The patterns we used on Alex's boat have been used since the 80s on dozens of highly successful boats, with no problems whatever.
I once did a hull at BCIT, with the students . I looked around and saw a huge amount of equipment. Rolls , plasma cutters, plate sheers, overhead lifts etc etc. I thought "In three weeks we should be able to get all the steel work done, including detail." Not a chance! We could have, had we been able to keep all the teachers out .As it was we only go the hull toigether, something we could have easily done in two days had the instructors not been there. A student would come in at 9am and spend the entire day trying to get one longitudinal perfectly spaced , within a millimeter, which is a total waste of time. I take a couple of minutes per longitudinal. Later ,I asked the owner, an electronics instructor there, if he got any more work done there. He said "No Way, not worth the politics ,its far easier for me to do it at home, and not get it screwed up."
Showing a detail unfinished is deliberately deceitful . Fools and children must never be allowed to see a work of art incomplete. Check out some of the uphand welds on BC ferries , a chicken can **** straighter in a gale. The welders there have every qualification you can imagine. 
Amazon yachts had beautiful welds ,on one side only, and most of the welds ground off, flush. Id rather have strong weld, less pretty, but thoroughly done I see no point in pretty, permanently hidden under foam.There only strong counts. There is no clack of strength in the weld shown ,just no cruising time wasted on hidden pretty, which are the kind of things which turn a boat into a ten year project.
More to come.


----------



## bobperry

"The current owner of that boat is extremely happy with her, and will be building my boats for others from now on."

How do we know that Brent?
We know you are a fibber.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> My boats are far more attractive than the dumpy looking Tayana 37, with bits of dead vegitation bolted all over her.


Yep, you've really got the superior eye Brent.

Currently the average ask on YW for Tayana 37's is $88K while Silas is going begging at about 1/4 of that.

I guess they're all just a bunch of ignorant suckers and/or fools.


----------



## mitiempo

SloopJonB said:


> Yep, you've really got the superior eye Brent.
> 
> Currently the average ask on YW for Tayana 37's is $88K while Silas is going begging at about 1/4 of that.
> 
> I guess they're all just a bunch of ignorant suckers and/or fools.


And the Silas Crosby is one of the better looking Swain boats!


----------



## SloopJonB

Here's the full Monty - let the readers decide.

SV-MOM - Different "Brent Boats" & Other Origami Boats

"Unknown in Genoa Bay" is particularly apropos.


----------



## bobperry

I agree with Miti. SILAS looks Ok up to the sheer. The hull shape is clunky but I'm amazed at what BS can do with his fold up method. It's not a hull I would draw and I don't think BS drew it either, but it works. His sheer looks quite nice. Someone else must be reponsible for that. ( joke)

But then come the details and the deck structure. In the end the overall look is agriculrural at best.

My Tayana looks fine. Not what I would draw today. But they did build more than 600 of them so there must be a few admirers. To my eye, today, I'd say, not bad.


----------



## mitiempo

I notice that the best looking of the group are the ones where the builder has deviated from the plans the most. Panacea below is a good example. Soft dodger and wood above deck.


----------



## SloopJonB

I agree - some of them are pretty decent, if rather ordinary looking - certainly the equal of most of the Bruce Roberts boats I've seen.

You certainly can't argue with their success - around the Horn *and* through the Northwest Passage. Despite all the hashing about transverse VS longitudinal framing and so forth, those two accomplishments indicate they are plenty strong.

It's puzzling that Brent can't simply settle for his boats undeniable strengths and promote them that way. Instead he has to project all the nonsense about them being superior in every way to every other boat ever built.

I'd like to see one of them done with a "Channel Cutter" aesthetic - I think it would work, ultra heavy disp and so forth.

I guess it would require too much "dead vegitation" (sic) to make it look right.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Calm down Brent. Don't be so angry. I might be angry too if I had to live on $4,000 a year. Ugh! But if that's your style it's good you are happy with it. Only you sound far from happy. If you are proud of your body of work why don't you sound happy about it? I'm very happy about my body of work. It brings me satisfaction and I have made a good living while doing it. I know you would like to think your angry words can
> "undo" what I have done but they can't. All you can do now is to continue to whine.
> So, whine on. I am working with my intern today so I'll be here to enjoy watching you flail around in your never ending fruitless effort to find credibility by attacking others.


Bear in mind that Bobs definition of "angry"is "anyone who disagrees with him, or who refuses to challenge disinformation". I wouldn't change places with anyone else on the planet. Tried living the 40 hour work week, like the mindless masses do.I didn't have a choice, initially. I have been happy ever since I gave that up. I delivered papers to guys who lived that life , in my youth. 
It was clear than most hated their lives , were a thoroughly miserable bunch, but didn't know of any alternative, which convinced me to become a cruiser, and maximize my free time. No regrets whatever. 
So stop your whining Bob. Real cruisers know better than to believe you.


----------



## bobperry

No Brent, my definbition of "angry" is someone like you who attacks anyone with an independant point of view. I like diversity. I'm not keen on little, angry people who breath paranoia when a diverse idea appears. Your myopic approach to life is far too confining for me.

But I am having a fun day with my new intern. I am tormenting him with a 3 day crash course on using spline wieghts and splines, just like the old fellers. I'll give him 3 days before we move to the computer. I figure that in our next step here at the shack we will move to computer drawn lines ansd the lessons learned drawings lines by hand will serve him well.

Will flew in from Panama where his family is currently on their HR 53. They are a third of the way into the circumnavigation. Yes, it's a grp boat and they are not all dead. They are having a good time. I enjoy kids a lot so having Will here is a lot of fun for me. It's stimulating to be pushed to keep a kid thinking hard and learning.

The only one whining Brent is you. But that never changes. Me? I'm having fun with Will. I showed him some of your boats as examples of exactly what happens when you have no training.


----------



## SloopJonB

Geeze Bob - pens, pencils & spline weights AND a rack of pipes on the wall? Your going to send that kid back as a certified old fart.  He's a good looking kid - looks smart.

It IS good to have kids around. Our house has been empty for a couple of years but now our daughter is home to have her baby (so it will be Canadian). Her husband & MIL will be coming in a couple of weeks. It will be good to have more life in the place - and a new grandson in a few weeks.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
He's smart. He knows his way around my compooter better than I do. Darn whippersnapper. But he likes my cooking. He has requested lasagne next week. We seem to be getting along. He likes having a big bed. He igores me when I am faseechus. We are knocking off now. It';s getting too dark for the high tolerance hand work I am having him do.


----------



## bigdogandy

Brent Swain said:


> ..... Tried living the 40 hour work week, like the mindless masses do......
> It was clear than most hated their lives , were a thoroughly miserable bunch, but didn't know of any alternative.....


That's a pretty insulting comment for guys like me who work at 40 hour plus week and enjoy it. I have a challenging and rewarding occupation that allows me to do something that provides tangible benefit to society. And I know a lot of other people that enjoy their careers......not everyone who works is "mindless"!

I respect the fact that BS has carved out a niche in the marine world, although he does seem to be pretty close-minded about this whole "pros and cons" conversation. I have tremendous respect for Mr. Perry who has made a significant contribution to the advancement of naval architecture for recreational sailors.

Too bad this discussion has veered so far off the original thread intent....but, I have learned a lot about the benefits and drawbacks of steel vs. al vs. grp by following this thread.

I love my fiberglass boat, by the way


----------



## SloopJonB

I love this clip - it just seems to fit Brent's philosophy so perfectly.  I wish my boats were so easy to move around.

It tends to support his statements about his boats riding over reefs and so forth.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Well, it looks like everyone is dumping their BS Yacht:
> 
> 36' Brent Swain Steel Cruising Sailboat
> 
> Does this kind of quality really justify Fukushima Fear?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a "2000" model for crying out loud (11 years younger than my Hunter)...
> 
> Ouch.
> 
> Asking $40K ($15K less than the owner of my Hunter was asking). We'll see what he actually gets. There are other BS Yachts still on the market for right around $20K. Of course, this one has very "yachty" granite counters in the galley:


Smack claims those solid welded 35 inch high lifelines are not as safe as his 24 inch high plastic coated trip wires, held to a plastic deck by tiny bolts, because his are shinier? He has the priorities of the totally consumer gullible, inexperienced ,arm chair expert.ittakessomeonewithalotofoffshorecruisingexperncetoapreciatewhatthisboathas
Many people told me they would have bought other brentboats for sale, had they been twin keelers.This one is.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent, even you must admit that boats interior looks like a bad amateur rec room job.

It's a perfect example of what gives amateur built boats a bad name. A person who can't do better than that should not build a boat, they should buy one already done.

I do like the stainless steel bulkhead beside the stove.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> That is grim. This is a perfect eample of what happens when a home build had inadequate or no design support. He will have trouble selling that boat at any price.
> How do you steer the boat? With the BBQ?


p

Park benches were his idea, not mine. I would never build a boat that way. I like cockpits. I offered him all the design support the builder needed ,and he ignored the plans I sold him. It did give him a huge aft cabin. All designers have had that problem, like the builder of the Perry design, who refused Bob's advice to have lifelines. 
Not everyone has style over substance priorities, as you suggest they all do. Not all accept the programming ,and some actually think for themselves.There really are more practical people looking for a boat. For anyone looking for a well built twin keeler in that size range, she is the only one on the market here in long time.


----------



## MikeJohns

Brent Swain said:


> ............
> Showing a detail unfinished is deliberately deceitful . Fools and children must never be allowed to see a work of art incomplete


Nothing significantly changed to the interior detail after it was finished. All those welds needed grinding back and re-welding without stress risers, and the brackets and transverse termination needed complete re-design. For a 40 foot boat with minimal framing that detail is abysmal



Brent Swain said:


> .................... I see no point in pretty, permanently hidden under foam.There only strong counts. There is no clack of strength in the weld shown ,just no cruising time wasted on hidden pretty, which are the kind of things which turn a boat into a ten year project.


The attitude if it's hidden anything goes ? Also surveyors won't notice the defective construction either ( defective by any standard ).

Because of high residual stresses and changed metallurgy in both the weld and the heat effected zones either side, it's very important to keep welds within a basic minimal standard.

It's also important to make sure the structure design has no stress risers. Fitup of parts should be precise to minimize the gap welded. Care in detail is important in steel and critical in aluminium alloy construction. Unfortunately you show no care whatsoever and a blatant disregard for even minimum sensible guidelines. That's why you can build a bare hull faster than Evan Shaler or a DIY assembly by a pro welder like Tom.

Then Tom had to add framing because your design was too weak and you still won't respond to that.

What is interesting is your utter disinterest in learning a better way for a little more care and effort. And much stronger boats for very little extra material.

But several of your origami boats have apparently had fatigue cracks and some have propagated down into the hull. They also commonly occur in the engine mounts. That's the typical sort of failure you get from poor construction detail with metal. Fatigue is the most important and often least understood bugbear with metal construction, that's why class societies define minutae. Don't imagine that if it's buried in insulating foam and invisible that it doesn't matter.

Alex's boat is a construction nightmare by any standard, even by farm equipment temp repair standards. Even farm equipment repairers have told you that !

You are also misrepresenting your experiences on BD net. You must have forgotten the professional NA's and engineers who tried to have discourse with you.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent, I have a question about your origami process - does it necessitate the spoon bow shape they all seem to share? 

I'm curious if other bow shapes - straight, plumb, clipper are possible or if the process "forces" the spoon shape.

Similarly, the stern - can they be double ended for example?


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
I have made some of my classic pasta marinara sauce for my intern. I wish you were here to enjoy it with us. But I've seen your posts about eating meat preserved in cooking oil and I say, "Eweeeeeeeee". You would like my pasta. And after dinner we could go outside and have a real heart to heart chat. I find little guys like you wilt so quickly face to face. I have been there.

But it real would be fun to open a bottle of nice wine with you and enjoy a meal. But you don't drink. Huh? What are you scared of? My friends and I enjoy some wine. We let down. We play some music. We give each other ****ski. It's what we do. We call it "having a good time".


----------



## MikeJohns

SloopJonB said:


> I love this clip - it just seems to fit Brent's philosophy so perfectly.  I wish my boats were so easy to move around.
> 
> It tends to support his statements about his boats riding over reefs and so forth.
> 
> Boat Tow - YouTube


The keels are braced and the boat is on skids and I'm guessing it's not been ballasted since it's towing so easily. So it's bashing it's way through 100 yards of grass 

I've seen larger steel sailboats cut in half for transport ! and although keels don't unbolt like some composite craft, welded keels can be cut off and then re-attached later in the yard quite cheaply and quickly. I have a few interesting pics of getting large boats moved and creative solutions.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Park benches were his idea, not mine. *I would never build a boat that way.* I like cockpits. I offered him all the design support the builder needed ,and he ignored the plans I sold him. It did give him a huge aft cabin. All designers have had that problem, like the builder of the Perry design, who refused Bob's advice to have lifelines.
> Not everyone has style over substance priorities, as you suggest they all do. Not all accept the programming ,and some actually think for themselves.There really are more practical people looking for a boat. For anyone looking for a well built twin keeler in that size range, she is the only one on the market here in long time.


Really? That's not what you said over on your origami site about this very same boat:



> *brentswain38: She is extremely well built and well equipped, a deal at that price. I saw the aluminium mast on deck just before stepping, not all that long ago. You wont find a better steel boat at a better price.*


Are you EVER honest Brent? Seriously. Your duplicity is amazing.

Either that, or you truly do think everyone on your origami site are suckers that will believe anything you tell them.

Wow.


----------



## SloopJonB

MikeJohns said:


> I've seen larger steel sailboats cut in half for transport ! and although keels don't unbolt like some composite craft, welded keels can be cut off and then re-attached later in the yard quite cheaply and quickly. I have a few interesting pics of getting large boats moved and creative solutions.


Well? Pics or it didn't happen.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Brent:
> I have made some of my classic pasta marinara sauce for my intern. I wish you were here to enjoy it with us. But I've seen your posts about eating meat preserved in cooking oil and I say, "Eweeeeeeeee". You would like my pasta. And after dinner we could go outside and have a real heart to heart chat. I find little guys like you wilt so quickly face to face. I have been there.
> 
> But it real would be fun to open a bottle of nice wine with you and enjoy a meal. But you don't drink. Huh? What are you scared of? My friends and I enjoy some wine. We let down. We play some music. We give each other ****ski. It's what we do. We call it "having a good time".


Yeah - but your friends are real.


----------



## bobperry

Smackers;
I kind of think so.

Just finished a nice dinner with Will, my intern. From my point of view everything seems all right.

Emailed his dad. Told him that I had his kid taken care of. My skills include parenting skills. I'm pretty damn good at it. I am in my comfort zone.


----------



## SloopJonB

Be honest now Bob - how often did your wife have to yank your leash today?


----------



## mitiempo

In contrast to Brent's boats here are a few pics.


----------



## SloopJonB

Frankly, I don't see anything there that couldn't be done with one of Brent's boats. All the negative comments about his boats are essentially the fault of the finishing or lack of artistry in the deck structures - the same things that cause the bad rep of amateur completed boats in any material.

A builder with a good eye could finish one to a yacht standard I think.

Of course, I don't particularly like chines so.....


----------



## mitiempo

According to Paulo chines can make a boat faster.


----------



## bobperry

Jon;
My wife quit trying to yank my chain about 30 years ago. It never worked. Over time she learned to just ignore me. That worked for her and it worked for me. Sooner or later I got the message. But we have been married for more than 35 years so I think the method is working quite well. I still love her very much. 

As for the BS boats: you either design then or you don't. Someone is not paying 
attention to design details. OK, essentially they are OK boats. Just barely. Funky hull shapes ans zero design detail beyond the hull. Brent has nothing to show for his design effort. ZERO. If you want to call yourself a "designer" then show your design work. I have never seen it from Brent. He has nothing to show. Nothing. He is 100% snake oil.

And that's what I think. If I were to bring any of the other yacht designers I know and respect into this conversation they would think Brent's work was a cruel joke. They would laugh. This I know.


----------



## chall03

bobperry said:


> As for the BS boats: you either design then or you don't. Someone is not paying
> attention to design details. OK, essentially they are OK boats. Just barely. Funky hull shapes ans zero design detail beyond the hull. Brent has nothing to show for his design effort. ZERO. If you want to call yourself a "designer" then show your design work. I have never seen it from Brent. He has nothing to show. Nothing. He is 100% snake oil..


I don't have a problem with Brent's boats. I have an issue with Brent's attitude.

My boat is essentially a production boat version of a Bruce Roberts design and well there have been plenty of badly home built Roberts around.....

Each to their own, live and let live......BUT if Brent is going to come on here and state that Bob Perry doesn't have an eye for aesthetics then he is going to have his ugly boats laughed at all over the inter webs.


----------



## smackdaddy

chall03 said:


> I don't have a problem with Brent's boats. I have an issue with Brent's attitude.
> 
> My boat is essentially a production boat version of a Bruce Roberts design and well there have been plenty of badly home built Roberts around.....
> 
> Each to their own, live and let live......BUT if Brent is going to come on here and state that Bob Perry doesn't have an eye for aesthetics then he is going to have his ugly boats laughed at all over the inter webs.


That's really the thing, isn't it? I don't think most people would have a problem at all with Brent's boats if they were allowed to stand on their own merit. Bob has mentioned many, many times in this thread that they are fine for what they are and do.

But Brent can't let them stand on their own merit. For some reason, he feels he has to make them be "the perfect boat" - while simultaneously demeaning the rest of the entire industry along with one of its very best designers. I mean, what the hell?

Remember his ongoing "crusade" to help the unfortunate women who have been beaten by their husbands (if that's even true)? Well, he's like one of those husbands in terms of how he behaves on the forums. He's always maniacally "right" (simply by making everyone else "wrong"), always abusive, always angry, always trying to dominate, incapable of reason, deceitful, etc.

The only difference is, we ain't his wives.


----------



## bobperry

Smacks. I agree. I have no problem with the BS boats if that's what you like. They do not suit my own taste. My own taste in boats is very eclectic but it requires good design work. I am not keen on having BS insult my clients and the owners of my boats. He can say what he wants about me. That won't change anything.

I've tried to be nice. Hell I sent him a Christmas present. But he just comes back ranting and flailing about attacking anything that diverts from his extremely narrow approach to sailing. I enjoy our ongoing exploration of steel boats and the alternatives to steel boats si I'll stick around. IF BS wants to continue saying silly things I will rerspond when I think it is necessary for accuracy and balance.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent - did you miss my question in post 3901?


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Jon;
> My wife quit trying to yank my chain about 30 years ago. It never worked. Over time she learned to just ignore me. That worked for her and it worked for me. Sooner or later I got the message. But we have been married for more than 35 years so I think the method is working quite well. I still love her very much.
> 
> As for the BS boats: you either design then or you don't. Someone is not paying
> attention to design details. OK, essentially they are OK boats. Just barely. Funky hull shapes ans zero design detail beyond the hull. Brent has nothing to show for his design effort. ZERO. If you want to call yourself a "designer" then show your design work. I have never seen it from Brent. He has nothing to show. Nothing. He is 100% snake oil.
> 
> And that's what I think. If I were to bring any of the other yacht designers I know and respect into this conversation they would think Brent's work was a cruel joke. They would laugh. This I know.


Like all my critics, you finally admit that you have not seen any of my boats. My clients get their information on my boats from those who have put many miles on them, not from those who don't have the foggiest idea what they are talking about, such as you ,and your groupie, Smack.
If there was anything wrong with them, Winston, after a circumnavigation behind him, would not have chosen my 36 for his second boat , let alone his third and fourth. His daughter would have been encouraged to build something other than her brentboat, currently cruising Mexico. Steve would not have built Silas Crosby after having sailed his plastic boat from BC to New Zealand and back. Many very experienced cruisers would have not chosen my design,as so many have . If there was something wrong with them, they would not have cruised the oceans of the world for over 3 decades without a single structural failure at sea. They would not have survived the many torture tests so many have . If survival in real conditions were not more reliable than calculations, testing tanks and wind tunnels would have gone extinct. NASA wouldn't bother testing things to destruction. So don't waste your time here, give NASA, Delft and others a call, and tell them that they are doing it all wrong.
You may claim the super ugly yellow and gray boats posted here are not ugly, but for most cruisers, that would be like trying to tell women that Rob Ford is handsome.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> Brent, I have a question about your origami process - does it necessitate the spoon bow shape they all seem to share?
> 
> I'm curious if other bow shapes - straight, plumb, clipper are possible or if the process "forces" the spoon shape.
> 
> Similarly, the stern - can they be double ended for example?


One of my boats was built with a canoe stern, no problem. You do the stern the same way you do the bow. Clipper bows could be done ,but with any clipper bow in steel ,controlling distortion would be tricky . The edges have to be longer than the middle of the plate. Experimenting with cardboard models will give you an idea of what works, and the complexities. I am not a big fan of clipper bows on smaller yachts
As Herreshoff pointed out , when they hit a swell, they tend to stop dead. You can see this riding a ferry ,the spoon bows slide smoothly thru the ferry wash the clipper bows hit it and stop. My first boat, with deep V shaped bow, had that problem, as did my second. They would drop into the trough to deck level, when the buoyancy would build up very suddenly and stop them. With my current boat, with about three inches of outward curve there, the buoyancy builds up gradually as she goes thru a wave, and she glides easily thru, with little resistance.

Apologies for the late response, but I simply cant read every post with my limited internet time.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> ...those who don't have the foggiest idea what they are talking about, such as you ,and your groupie, Smack.


Oh admit it. You just wish I was _your_ groupie instead of Bob's.

As for not having the foggiest idea what I'm talking about - virtually everything I've said about your boats has come either directly from you, or directly from your disillusioned customers, etc. I simply put up these words from these various sources and point out the issues/inconsistencies/etc...assuming that you and your customers are actually experts on your own boats. Is that not the case?


----------



## Brent Swain

sortant said:


> After sitting in my backyard fir over 15 years thought it time to remove and replace metal. Keel has 6000 lbs lead. Used tire weights with metal clips melted off poured in.


I'm on the sunshine coast for a few more days . Where is she? Do you have a contact phone number? Email?
I read in Pacific Yachting that some boat yards are salvaging abandoned boats, including Shelter Island. That should mean a glut of cheap masts, rigs, winches etc ,in an increasing supply, greatly reducing your cost of getting her sailing.


----------



## bobperry

"Like all my critics, you finally admit that you have not seen any of my boats."
Brent, what are you babbling about now?
You are making things up again.

I have seen lots of photos of your boats. Many have been posted here. No thanks to you who seem unable to post any photos let aone an actual design drawing. I have been to your site. So, once again you are wrong. I have never seen one of your boats in person. There just aren't many of them. None down here that I know of. And, if I saw one I think I would look away really quickly. They are not boats that would attract my attention. If I saw one I'd be afraid the owner might see me looking at it and ask me what I thought of it.

I'd ponder a bit and then say, "Right,,,,,,,,,I really like the,,,,,,the,,,,,,winch handle."
Then I would skeedaddle.

Smackers:
You are my "groupie"
Ewwwwwwwwww


----------



## mstern

Brent Swain said:


> Like all my critics, you finally admit that you have not seen any of my boats.


What?!? Where in the name of Cap'n Nat did Bob say anything even close to "admitting" he hadn't seen any of your boats?!? Of course Bob (and everyone on this thread) has seen umpteen photos of your boats as we've been discussing their pros and cons.

Yeesh.


----------



## bobperry

Sterny:
I think we are dealing with an alternative universe here.

I couldn't begin to count the times Brent has invented quotes for people here.
He's had a few for Smackers. He either is dyslexic or has some other severe reading comprehension problem that I don't understand or he just plain enjoys fabrictating his own idea of the truth. He reminds me of some politicians. Say anything. Someone will believe it. Not me though.

I was thinking that given the number of people who hold Brent to account here it doesn't surprise me that he can't keep the quotes straight.


----------



## SloopJonB

It's likely you'll only find a mast suitable as a mizzen for a steel boat 30' and up. I saw a string of 4 boats being towed in to be scrapped last Saturday. A Riviera Star 24 and a Crown or Davidson 18, along with an engineless Zeta and a big dinghy - apparently they are clearing the abandoned junk from moorings in Snug Cove. This stuff all looked like it hadn't been touched for many years - thick slime 1/2 way up the hull sides etc.

All the stuff I've seen being scrapped is like that, nothing over 30'


----------



## Faster

SloopJonB said:


> ...... I saw a string of 4 boats being towed in to be scrapped last Saturday. A Riviera Star 24 and a Crown or Davidson 18, along with an engineless Zeta and a big dinghy - apparently they are clearing the abandoned junk from moorings in Snug Cove. .....


Good to hear. Probably not Snug Cove per se, but rather Mannion Bay/Deep Bay/Hotel Bay (pick your local name ) Moorings and derelicts have been building up there since the FC cleanout. The Squamish 'dogpatch' is a real eyesore too, and the one at Ladysmith not much better....


----------



## bobperry

Will, my intern strikes his first buttock:


He is wearing a pair of Spike's Carhartt bib oevarlls. The shirt is a Pendletion shirt that Spike gave me for last Christmas. Of course Spike can't buy gifts anymore but I buy me some things that I give to me from Spike. It sounds silly. But at Christmas time I know Spike would give me something nice. I just told Will to help himself to the warm and wooly shirt collection. He did come from Panama. He's freezing.


----------



## djodenda

Real NURBS are much more cool than the formulas

Poor guy.. I was racing yesterday in the sleet on my big boat, and my daughter was racing FJs in Victoria in the snow.

He'll toughen up just before he returns south, I expect.


----------



## mstern

Bob: you sure seem to like to have kids in the house. My youngest leaves for college in the fall. I can't imagine what its going to be like.


----------



## bobperry

Sterny:
I lived with two boys in the house for many years. Never a dull moment. Max's band got a contract with Capitol Records when he was 18 so he had the money to move out. I sat there, in his bedroom, thinking, "****ski! I'm just getting the hang of this "dad thing" and now you move out?" I really like family around. Even someone else's family I guess. Some of us are built this way.

Tonight I introduce Will to fresh Sea Scallops. He has never had them before. It will be an expensive experiment. I have some Hempler's hot dogs in the fridge just in case. We will get through the night. Oh yeah, I have chocolate rocky road ice cream and chocolate with peanut butter ice cream as a back up. I never buy ice cream. I love ice cream. I like kids.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Sterny:
> I lived with two boys in the house for many years. Never a dull moment. Max's band got a contract with Capitol Records when he was 18 so he had the money to move out. I sat there, in his bedroom, thinking, "****ski! I'm just getting the hang of this "dad thing" and now you move out?" I really like family around. Even someone else's family I guess. Some of us are built this way.
> 
> Tonight I introduce Will to fresh Sea Scallops. He has never had them before. It will be an expensive experiment. I have some Hempler's hot dogs in the fridge just in case. We will get through the night. Oh yeah, I have chocolate rocky road ice cream and chocolate with peanut butter ice cream as a back up. I never buy ice cream. I love ice cream. I like kids.


Just tell him to HTFU. He could be stuck with Brent on his boat eating cold, dry oatmeal and inhaling body odor, wood smoke, and diesel.


----------



## bobperry

Scallops and shrimp did not go over well. Ended up with a chef's salad, sort of. We had French fries on the side and ice cream for desert. He's 6'3 " and 145 lbs. I's not like he eats a lot. He does go through at least a half gallon of milk a day. But I used to do that so I can relate. There is something very satisfying about feeding a hungry kid.


----------



## blt2ski

Bob, 

You should try two sons and two daughters......oh boy! never a dull moment..... or be the only boy of 6 kids, the other 5 were GIRLZ........but they had cute friends come over......LOLOLOL

Marty


----------



## copacabana

smackdaddy said:


> Just tell him to HTFU. He could be stuck with Brent on his boat eating cold, dry oatmeal and inhaling body odor, wood smoke, and diesel.


You make it sound like a bad thing... 

Seriously though, what does HTFU stand for? I've seen it a few times now and for the life of me can't figure this one out.


----------



## bobperry

Copa:
Really?

Try this:
Google Chopper HTFU. I believe all will be revealed.
I tried that and it works. Watch the video.


----------



## mstern

As the parent of two teens, I've found this site invaluable.

HTFU - What does HTFU stand for? Acronyms and abbreviations by the Free Online Dictionary.


----------



## bobperry

That's silly.
You can't sanitize Australian slang.
I'll go with Choppper's version thank you.


----------



## copacabana

bobperry said:


> Copa:
> Really?
> 
> Try this:
> Google Chopper HTFU. I believe all will be revealed.
> I tried that and it works. Watch the video.


Ah!... Thanks.


----------



## mstern

Well Bob, I have to agree that your web explanation of HTFU provides a much better understanding of the term than mine. I did use the acronym search site a lot when my kids were younger; I had no idea what they were texting me.


----------



## SloopJonB

mstern said:


> As the parent of two teens, I've found this site invaluable.
> 
> HTFU - What does HTFU stand for? Acronyms and abbreviations by the Free Online Dictionary.


That gives you the television version, not a real definition. 

Urban dictionary is better.


----------



## mstern

SloopJonB said:


> That gives you the television version, not a real definition.
> 
> Urban dictionary is better.


I can translate.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> The current owner of that boat is extremely happy with her, and will be building my boats for others from now on. He has just done another 36. *You can measure that boat any way you please, and you wont find anything out of line.* For joining the two halves,we measured along the stem on each side, and made a mark at the same distance along the curve , from the point of the stem on each side. Then we began pulling the two halves together by first matching up the marks. An optical illusion in the photo made them look different lengths, but double checking the distance of the marks from the stem showed them to be exactly equal. *When we pulled the last of the stem together,they matched up perfectly.* If one were shorter than the other, there is no way you could compress 3/16th plate on end, yet that is exactly what my half wit critics claimed I did.


Really? Hmmm. Then you're saying the skeg is crooked?










Or is this just another "optical illusion"?


----------



## bobperry

The edge does not look symetrical. I have a very good eye.

Why is it that all of BS's critics are "half wits"?


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Really? Hmmm. Then you're saying the skeg is crooked?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or is this just another "optical illusion"?


You will notice there are no welds on that skeg at this point. First, it was wedged over onto the centreline , then cut to match the hull, before welding. You may as well show a picture of the skeg on a workbench, then claim it is in the wrong place.
This is a clear demonstration of how Smack tries to mislead anyone gullible enough to believe anything he says, or how gullible he claims us to be, and how insulting he can thus be, to readers of his posts. They played all the same games on BD.net.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> It's likely you'll only find a mast suitable as a mizzen for a steel boat 30' and up. I saw a string of 4 boats being towed in to be scrapped last Saturday. A Riviera Star 24 and a Crown or Davidson 18, along with an engineless Zeta and a big dinghy - apparently they are clearing the abandoned junk from moorings in Snug Cove. This stuff all looked like it hadn't been touched for many years - thick slime 1/2 way up the hull sides etc.
> 
> All the stuff I've seen being scrapped is like that, nothing over 30'


A friend was given a 44 ft aluminium mast off a rotten old boat, along with the rig, winches , sails, etc etc. Another friend, who just pulled together we a new 36 ft brentboat, was on his way to Vancouver to pick up an aluminium mast over 50 feet, last time I saw him, several weeks ago.
One of the sail boats shown being scrapped ,in Pacific Yachting, was a huge sailboat.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> I love this clip - it just seems to fit Brent's philosophy so perfectly.  I wish my boats were so easy to move around.
> 
> It tends to support his statements about his boats riding over reefs and so forth.
> 
> Boat Tow - YouTube


This is the boat some claim are not strong enough. What would that do to a plastic boat, or a wooden boat, which some here have claimed are stronger?She was under a high tension power line, where boat movers and crane operators refused to touch her. None of those who criticised Alex for moving her this way had any better solutions. They would have been completely lost in the same situation, but would have never considered doing the obvious. Wouldn't be trendy enough !


----------



## bobperry

I still think the transom is asymetrical. Not much but enough to bother me.

In think it is cool how they moved that boat. Can't hurt it. It's not like they were going to spoil it's lovely lines.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Smackers;
> I kind of think so.
> 
> Just finished a nice dinner with Will, my intern. From my point of view everything seems all right.
> 
> Emailed his dad. Told him that I had his kid taken care of. My skills include parenting skills. I'm pretty damn good at it. I am in my comfort zone.


What does this have to do with pros and cons of steel sailboats . Take that kind of drivel to facebook.


----------



## Brent Swain

sortant said:


> After sitting in my backyard fir over 15 years thought it time to remove and replace metal. Keel has 6000 lbs lead. Used tire weights with metal clips melted off poured in.


The steel doesn't look all that bad , the inside looks great. Your first step in working on that boat should be to get some 35 inch high, solid lifelines on , whether temporary or permanent. Its a long way to fall and you wont have water to land on. I once fell off a boat and broke my wrist and pelvis, a real pain in the ass, literally. Luckily the keel was not on yet. Had the keel been on, I would have been killed. Having good lifelines feels a whole lot more secure, when working on deck, allowing you to concentrate on what you are doing.
Stainless is far harder to find in scrapyards than it used to be. If you use stainless for the first 4 inches above the decks, and go galvanized from there, you can easily change it all for stainless later, when some shows up, without burning any paint or foam.I have used galvanized sch 40 pipe in the 80's which, well painted, looks as good as the day it went on.
I'd leave that transom off as long as possible, for easy access and less height to climb. If you have any sandblasting to do inside, it gives you a place blast the sand out. Cutting holes in the hull at low points, also helps. Other wise the sand builds up faster than you can blast. You can then blast the cutouts and weld them back in, then blast the welds.
After you have thoroughly epoxied the inside you can put the bulkheads in, far easier than putting them in after foaming. Putting the transom in takes only a few minutes. Put it in over size, and fully weld the inside, before cutting the excess off the outside, grinding it flush, then welding it.
Making the bottom sharp corner of a reverse transom, where it is impossible to keep paint on, out of stainless, will save you a lot of maintenance problems later. Ditto trimming all outside corners with stainless.
Wheel balancing steel clips are 20% of the weight They all float to the surface where they are easily skimmed off. Welding a plate over the ballast keeps oxygen out, eliminating any electrolysis between the lead and the keel plate. As an added precaution ,you can weld a stainless nut to the top, drill a hole thru it , pour a bit of oil in, then put a bolt in and weld it airtight. With a layer of oil on top, there is no chance of oxygen getting to the metal


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
Bite me!
I'll post what I want when I want and you can blow it out your discharge.
Don't even try to drag me down to your angry, little man level.
I simply don't care what you think. To me you are pure entertainment. An easy diversion.

Back to the important stuff:
So here we were this morning. My Vancouver pal Tim was down to work on the PSC 62'er deck layout (no, you wouldn't understand Brent. It's called "designing"). Tim is my right hand man when it comes to the very latest in deck gear and systems. He is also an expert navigator and very well acquainted with all the latest nav aids. Will, my intern, was hard at work hand fairing a set of lines. I have one eraser. I never make mistakes so I almost never need an eraser. I keep it around for,,,,show. But here we were working away and Tim and Will trying to share my one eraser.

I had a brilliant idea. "let's cut the eraser in half!"


You see Brent, for some of us it's all about having fun and enjoying life. No need to be uptight. No need to be angry. Gather some pals around a student or two and enjoy the world of yacht design.

Tim is also a great guitar player. I suspect we'll play some tonight.


----------



## Dean101

Once again Brent, will you please ask some of these friends of yours to join the discussion so we can hear their opinions? If they are really that satisfied with the choices they made then you should have no problem with them sharing with us. Honestly, I think much of what you claim is either the stuff of fantasy that you feed to uninformed clients in order to pawn your various media or outright crap to perpetuate your drama.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Brent:
> Bite me!
> I'll post what I want when I want and you can blow it out your discharge.
> Don't even try to drag me down to your angry, little man level.
> I simply don't care what you think. To me you are pure entertainment. An easy diversion.
> 
> Back to the important stuff:
> So here we were this morning. My Vancouver pal Tim was down to work on the PSC 62'er deck layout (no, you wouldn't understand Brent. It's called "designing"). Tim is my right hand man when it comes to the very latest in deck gear and systems. He is also an expert navigator and very well acquainted with all the latest nav aids. Will, my intern, was hard at work hand fairing a set of lines. I have one eraser. I never make mistakes so I almost never need an eraser. I keep it around for,,,,show. But here we were working away and Tim and Will trying to share my one eraser.
> 
> I had a brilliant idea. "let's cut the eraser in half!"
> 
> 
> You see Brent, for some of us it's all about having fun and enjoying life. No need to be uptight. No need to be angry. Gather some pals around a student or two and enjoy the world of yacht design.
> 
> Tim is also a great guitar player. I suspect we'll play some tonight.


Man, you sound angry! Soap opera participants tend to be that way!


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
Once again you are projecting. 

I'm in a very good mood. Beef Stroganoff tonight with sliced tenderloin steaks, mushrooms, some paprika, sour cream, shallots and some secret stuff.

I can't do angry right now. Maybe if I screw up the Stroganoff. Then step back. I'll show you angry.

Bu this is SN. What's to be angry about? I can't see it.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Really? That's not what you said over on your origami site about this very same boat:
> 
> Are you EVER honest Brent? Seriously. Your duplicity is amazing.
> 
> Either that, or you truly do think everyone on your origami site are suckers that will believe anything you tell them.
> 
> Wow.


That is not the way I would have doe it, so I let Evan do the job. I like cockpits .However, she is the best steel twin keeler in that size range currently on the market. All others I've been aware of are single keelers. 
Folks posting on origamiboats are impressed with her.


----------



## bobperry

I can relate to that. Some times you have to let your client have his way.

"I see, you want ratty looking park benches where I want a cockpit? Well, you just go for it."

Brent is two faced. He attacks me because some of the features of my designs are client driven then he says, "That is not the way I would have doe it, so I let Evan do the job. " I understand totally but you can't argue both ways. Unless you are someone who lives in dual universes.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> You will notice there are no welds on that skeg at this point. First, it was wedged over onto the centreline , then cut to match the hull, before welding. You may as well show a picture of the skeg on a workbench, then claim it is in the wrong place.
> This is a clear demonstration of how Smack tries to mislead anyone gullible enough to believe anything he says, or how gullible he claims us to be, and how insulting he can thus be, to readers of his posts. They played all the same games on BD.net.


Well of course Brent. How could it possibly be imperfect?

Disregarding the skeg, that transom is far from the perfection you claim. It's not symmetrical. Period. It's "hand drawn".

The funny thing is - it's damned good for a hand drawn curve. And I would be happy to give you props for that. Instead, you insist it's perfect - as perfect as any real boat out there. But it's not. That's very plain to see in that "Alex's Boat" sequence of photos.

It's very good amateur work. But it's far from quality boat building. There's just no way around that.

It's like when you say your own boat looks as good as it did the day you painted it. Well, one look at the pictures I've posted in this thread and it's very clear that either your paint looked like crap 30 years ago (or whatever) - or your idea of perfection is WAY below most of the world's. I'm betting on the latter. Your "perfect" is most people's "so-so". It's just a matter of translation.


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## SloopJonB

I'm surprised no-one has commented on the firewood boat stands. 

I've got a pretty decent eye but I think I'd wait until those seams are ground smooth before deciding if the lines are off - jagged edges with lumps of slag, not to mention the different sized temporary tabs, can lead to optical delusions. It makes it very difficult to determine the true line underneath.


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## bobperry

Jon:
You could be right on the jagged weld seams. Anyway, given the overall aesthetic goal of the boat it really doesn't matter. It's fine. If every detail of the build is done with a consistant level of "imperfection" it's amazing what you can get away with.

It works the other way too. For instance on the SLIVER project. Once you elevate the level of finish to near perfection, assuming "perfect" is impossible, you force all the following, surrouunding details to rise to the same level. It can get very expensive.


----------



## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> I've got a pretty decent eye but I think I'd wait until those seams are ground smooth before deciding if the lines are off - jagged edges with lumps of slag, not to mention the different sized temporary tabs, can lead to optical delusions. It makes it very difficult to determine the true line underneath.


Fair enough. I did draw a line along the port side (what appears to be the weld) and mirrored that over to the starboard. As I said, it's impressively close for eyeballing it. It's just not the perfection Brent claims.


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## bobperry

"It's just not the perfection Brent claims. "

Yeah but Brent posted on Sully's site about eating meat preserved in cooking oil.
That thread was immediately above the thread titled "Cures for diarhea".
No I am not kidding.
Not sure that I could relate to Brent's standard for perfection.

But it's all fun.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> It works the other way too. For instance on the SLIVER project. Once you elevate the level of finish to near perfection, assuming "perfect" is impossible, you force all the following, surrouunding details to rise to the same level. It can get very expensive.


The problem with going that show car finish route, on a boat that lives out in the weather, is the near impossibility of keeping it that way. Powerboats like Rivas etc. that live in sheds are one thing but just keeping the green slime off an "outdoor" boat around here is a fair bit of work.

I saw a 6 Meter (IIRC) at the PT show a few years ago. Obviously just out of the shed with butted seams and the mahogany planking stained a sort of rosewood colour under many layers of absolutely perfect varnish.

It looked like one piece of wood and the finish was far better than all but the most expensive furniture - better than most pianos.

It was breathtaking but I doubt it lasted through the following winter.

I'm a big believer in the 10 foot rule for boats.


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## bobperry

I think the 10 foot rule makes sense but not the ten mile rule.


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## djodenda

Can we see Frankie with her cove stripe?
Please?


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## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> I've only seen people state that *"Pound for pound"* they are - which they are.


I can think of several 36 ft wooden and plastic boats, in the same weight category, or heavier than mine, which would never survive 16 days on a Baja beach in huge surf ,or which would never survive pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef, a collision with a freighter, a hull speed t-boning of a steel barge , log boom, a single season passage thru the NW passage, ramming thru a quarter mile of 5 inch ice. etc. I cant think of any wooden sail boat which would survive such tests . Joshua's experience on a Baja beach, and that of Pygmalion, a sister ship, are more examples. Reality kinda blows your theory.


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
Of course you may. But right now we only have some bad photos due to the rain and bad light at the time. I'm going to go down to see Frankie on Saturday with my intern and I'll get some good photos. I'll see what I can dig up now. But I am very hard at work on the PSC 62'er tis afternoon.

Brent:
" Reality kinda blows your theory. "

Wow, here we are 24 hours later and you are still up tight. Do you ever just relax and let the anger go? I'm not sure you are the right person to be lecturing others on "reality" not with your track record of lies.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Well of course Brent. How could it possibly be imperfect?
> 
> Disregarding the skeg, that transom is far from the perfection you claim. It's not symmetrical. Period. It's "hand drawn".
> 
> The funny thing is - it's damned good for a hand drawn curve. And I would be happy to give you props for that. Instead, you insist it's perfect - as perfect as any real boat out there. But it's not. That's very plain to see in that "Alex's Boat" sequence of photos.
> 
> It's very good amateur work. But it's far from quality boat building. There's just no way around that.
> 
> It's like when you say your own boat looks as good as it did the day you painted it. Well, one look at the pictures I've posted in this thread and it's very clear that either your paint looked like crap 30 years ago (or whatever) - or your idea of perfection is WAY below most of the world's. I'm betting on the latter. Your "perfect" is most people's "so-so". It's just a matter of translation.


For the transom, we use the same pattern for both sides. So how could the pattern have changed when we flipped it over?The hull plate is not cut completely flush at that point, so you cant even clearly see the outline of the transom.
I prefer to define "Amateur "as the priorities of someone with little cruising experience . Experienced cruisers have a different set of priorities, such as function, and practicality . Those with no cruising experience judge things by cosmetics alone, nitpicking the tiniest cosmetic details, as they don't have the foggiest idea of practicality , and what becomes important while cruising, and thus have nothing but cosmetics to go by.


----------



## bobperry

Here you go Denda. This will have to hold you till the weekend.


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
Do I need to post more photos of my beautiful boats that are owned by very experienced cruisers. Not the beans and rice crowd you target but cruisers who can afford the best design and the best build. I can post nice photos all night while you just get smaller and smaller.


----------



## djodenda

Stripe looks just right to me. I especially like the font and how you positioned the name (I am not a boat designer, but meddled in graphic arts a while back)

Your idea?
Kim's?
Both? (I expect)

It's just right


----------



## Brent Swain

Brent Swain said:


> The steel doesn't look all that bad , the inside looks great. Your first step in working on that boat should be to get some 35 inch high, solid lifelines on , whether temporary or permanent. Its a long way to fall and you wont have water to land on. I once fell off a boat and broke my wrist and pelvis, a real pain in the ass, literally. Luckily the keel was not on yet. Had the keel been on, I would have been killed. Having good lifelines feels a whole lot more secure, when working on deck, allowing you to concentrate on what you are doing.
> Stainless is far harder to find in scrapyards than it used to be. If you use stainless for the first 4 inches above the decks, and go galvanized from there, you can easily change it all for stainless later, when some shows up, without burning any paint or foam.I have used galvanized sch 40 pipe in the 80's which, well painted, looks as good as the day it went on.
> I'd leave that transom off as long as possible, for easy access and less height to climb. If you have any sandblasting to do inside, it gives you a place blast the sand out. Cutting holes in the hull at low points, also helps. Other wise the sand builds up faster than you can blast. You can then blast the cutouts and weld them back in, then blast the welds.
> After you have thoroughly epoxied the inside you can put the bulkheads in, far easier than putting them in after foaming. Putting the transom in takes only a few minutes. Put it in over size, and fully weld the inside, before cutting the excess off the outside, grinding it flush, then welding it.
> Making the bottom sharp corner of a reverse transom, where it is impossible to keep paint on, out of stainless, will save you a lot of maintenance problems later. Ditto trimming all outside corners with stainless.
> Wheel balancing steel clips are 20% of the weight They all float to the surface where they are easily skimmed off. Welding a plate over the ballast keeps oxygen out, eliminating any electrolysis between the lead and the keel plate. As an added precaution ,you can weld a stainless nut to the top, drill a hole thru it , pour a bit of oil in, then put a bolt in and weld it airtight. With a layer of oil on top, there is no chance of oxygen getting to the metal


That skeg could probably use a bit of beefing up. Many high aspect skegs on steel boats are grossly under built. Extending the root further forward will give it more bearing on the hull. Then, putting a 6 inch wide fillet strip on a 45 degree angle, connecting the skeg to the hull, will spread the load athwartships over the hull. Inside, a couple of 3/16th plate webs , six inches deep amidships , going at least as far as the first chine, will spread the load across the hull. If you put longitudinal gussets, connecting the weld line , from the fillet pieces outside, to the webs ,it will give you the structural equivalent of having continued the skeg sides thru, and slotted them into the webs.
On a new boat, the strongest way to built a high aspect ratio skeg is to run the skeg right thru, and weld it to the cockpit floor.


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
That's funny. Kim went back and forth with fonts and then told the graphics guy to use the font I had used on the drawings. I don't know squat about fonts and I always a assume the owner will pick his font. I just grabbed a font off acad that looked simple and clean and used it on my drawings. I probably gave the font about 15 seconds of thought.

But thanks anyway. It does look kind of nice and crisp.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> I can relate to that. Some times you have to let your client have his way.
> 
> "I see, you want ratty looking park benches where I want a cockpit? Well, you just go for it."
> 
> Brent is two faced. He attacks me because some of the features of my designs are client driven then he says, "That is not the way I would have doe it, so I let Evan do the job. " I understand totally but you can't argue both ways. Unless you are someone who lives in dual universes.


I know several people with Colvin Gazelles, and other designs , who love their park benches . Not my cuppa tea. I like feeling like I'm IN my boat rather than ON it, especially in rough weather.


----------



## bobperry

But it's your design Brent. Surely you must be responsable for every detail.
You are a hypocrit.


----------



## djodenda

bobperry said:


> Denda:
> That's funny. Kim went back and forth with fonts and then told the graphics guy to use the font I had used on the drawings. I don't know squat about fonts and I always a assume the owner will pick his font. I just grabbed a font off acad that looked simple and clean and used it on my drawings. I probably gave the font about 15 seconds of thought.
> 
> But thanks anyway. It does look kind of nice and crisp.


It does. 
Spacing between letters and strip is just right


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Denda:
> Of course you may. But right now we only have some bad photos due to the rain and bad light at the time. I'm going to go down to see Frankie on Saturday with my intern and I'll get some good photos. I'll see what I can dig up now. But I am very hard at work on the PSC 62'er tis afternoon.
> 
> Brent:
> " Reality kinda blows your theory. "
> 
> Wow, here we are 24 hours later and you are still up tight. Do you ever just relax and let the anger go? I'm not sure you are the right person to be lecturing others on "reality" not with your track record of lies.


I am looking out the window at a beautiful indoor swimming pool, with a dry sauna and a steam room , fully equipped gym, with all the gear imaginable , a big hot tub and Olympic sized swimming pool. I just got out of there. Cost me $6.25, total . Love that socialism . I couldn't possibly be more relaxed!
It's your assumption that not putting up with bull, means I'm angry and uptight, which is dead wrong! Nothing could possibly be further from the truth. I love shooting sitting ducks like you and your groupies off a fence , not because I'm angry ,but because I enjoy it, and it relaxes me.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Brent:
> Do I need to post more photos of my beautiful boats that are owned by very experienced cruisers. Not the beans and rice crowd you target but cruisers who can afford the best design and the best build. I can post nice photos all night while you just get smaller and smaller.


Bob, you do have some beautiful and relatively functional plastic boats, with function somewhat diminished by some decorative priorities . You also have some dainty , impractical ones, with decorative function only, ones which I, or anyone with offshore, long term cruising experience, would ever dream of wanting, for long term cruising purposes , like the one you just posted .


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> SloopJonB said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've only seen people state that *"Pound for pound"* they are - which they are.
> 
> 
> 
> I can think of several 36 ft wooden and plastic boats, in the same weight category, or heavier than mine, which would never survive 16 days on a Baja beach in huge surf ,or which would never survive pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef, a collision with a freighter, a hull speed t-boning of a steel barge , log boom, a single season passage thru the NW passage, ramming thru a quarter mile of 5 inch ice. etc. I cant think of any wooden sail boat which would survive such tests . Joshua's experience on a Baja beach, and that of Pygmalion, a sister ship, are more examples. Reality kinda blows your theory.
Click to expand...

The thing is that wood and plastic boats "in your weight category" are NOT built that heavily, they carry a lot more ballast. A comparable epoxy laminated wood boat would have a hull several inches thick, which no-one does.

Years ago a Spencer 1330 T-boned an ISLAND around here - ran headfirst into a cliff at night - the island lost. Spencers were not built to an equivalent Lbs per Sq. Ft. weight to one of your steelers.

As you well know, the practical minimum dimensions for plating a steel boat are WAY in excess of what is needed for appropriate strength. Small steel boats are inherently massively overbuilt.

In other materials that is not the case and the thickness/strength ratios can be adjusted to be (choose one) suitable or sufficient or appropriate for the size of boat.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> I prefer to define "Amateur "as the priorities of someone with little cruising experience .


Brent, might I suggest a review of my beloved OED?

Amateur: A person who engages in a pursuit (e.g. an art or sport) as a pastime rather than a profession.

Don't confuse amateur with inexperience. There are lots of very experienced amateurs and inexperienced professionals out there.

I'm an amateur bottom painter but I sure as hell ain't inexperienced.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Bob, you do have some beautiful and relatively functional plastic boats, with function somewhat diminished by some decorative priorities . You also have some dainty , impractical ones, with decorative function only, ones which I, or anyone with offshore, long term cruising experience, would ever dream of wanting, for long term cruising purposes , like the one you just posted .


Brent, that boat was specifically designed as a fast daysailer with only overnight accommodations. For that specified purpose it is an amazing piece, albeit a mite extreme.

Do you use suitability for long term offshore cruising, particularly at high latitudes, as your ONLY criteria when looking at boats?


----------



## bobperry

Ok, I'm going to have some fun tonight and post some pics of some of my boats you guys will never see. The DARK SIDE!




You see Brent, I have more boats inside my imagination that you could ever dream of. I have lots just waiting to bust out. I design boats., all kinds of boats. Like this ANGUILA Class 30'er for a Doctor in Anguila. Thgis boat is designed to a traditional Anguilan Island class. Racing is very serious.


----------



## mstern

Bob: I love Concerto! What was the design brief for that boat? She looks kind of like someone wanted a power Valiant. I love the way it all comes together. What was the owner going for?


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> For the transom, we use the same pattern for both sides. So how could the pattern have changed when we flipped it over?


You're the builder and you really don't know the answer to that?



Brent Swain said:


> I can think of several 36 ft wooden and plastic boats, in the same weight category, or heavier than mine, which would never survive 16 days on a Baja beach in huge surf ,or which would never survive pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef, a collision with a freighter, a hull speed t-boning of a steel barge , log boom, a single season passage thru the NW passage, ramming thru a quarter mile of 5 inch ice. etc. I cant think of any wooden sail boat which would survive such tests . Joshua's experience on a Baja beach, and that of Pygmalion, a sister ship, are more examples. Reality kinda blows your theory.


I think Mike showed that your boats have done hardly any of this either.

And anyway, plastic boats can easily withstand a collision with a large ship as shown here:






A steel boat would have sunk for sure. Everybody knows that.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
It seems that BS is incapable of understanding that different people have different needs and wants when it comes to their boat. For BS it's either you want a crude looking semi finished accident of a geometry process or you are a fool.

Sterny:
CONCERTO was designed for my long time client Ken Sawyer. He lives in Maine and wanted a boat that would be a counterpoint to the Hinckley picnic boat. We spent about $50,000 tank testing this design in Vancouver. The boat was built at Lyman-Morse for a bit over $2,000,000. The interior is beyond belief and includes a Yamaha piano. No, Ken does not play but he still wanted a piano on his boat.

One Saturday afternoon when I well along with the design, Ken called and asked me., "Have you ever seen a Bugatti Atlantique?" I said no. Apparently Ralph Lauren owns one of the few left. It's a very rare and exotic car. Ken said Google it. I did. Ken said, "I want that window." I said, "F#$k!" But Ken never takes no for an answer so I said I'd do my best.

Did you notice the Porshe Targa bar over the back of the house? Some times it's about having fun.

I do question my client's motives. Then they answer me and I say, "Cool, let's do it."


----------



## DJR351

bobperry said:


> The interior is beyond belief and includes a Yamaha piano. No, Ken does not play but he still wanted a piano on his boat."


Well he doesn't really have to play does he....

Lionheart Concerto Party - YouTube

.


----------



## bobperry

351:
No he doesn't.
I have a piano in my office and I don't play.
A home is not a home without a piano.
I have plenty of friends that play.
My piano was once my Dad's piano.
I like it.


----------



## mstern

I thought that Concerto's cabin looked picnic-boaty! I don't know a Bugati window from a hole in the wall, but I love how the big cabin window shapes are echoed in the small coach roof windows, and how the eyebrows offset them.

And if you've ever read Bill Buckley's sailing books, you'd have been greatly entertained by his stories of his piano playing on his sailboat. Some of the pictures in Atlantic High of Bill at the keyboard are priceless.

The Concerto design is some pretty good proof that Bob Perry has fun at his job.


----------



## bobperry

Oh yes. I do have fun. When I look at beautiful design work, well crafted and well presented I think, "Now there's a guy who enjoys his job."


----------



## smackdaddy

Win.


----------



## mstern

Is that a steel submarine?


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent,

I've been trying to find pics of your personal boat. Are there any around?

The only ones (in a series) I've found thus far are of this boat:










Although the caption doesn't make it clear who it belongs to. It kind of looks like yours from this other photo:


----------



## Faster

One of the remarkable things about Concerto is how difficult it is to judge the size. I initially thought mid 30 feet, but in the video with people on the dock she looks over 40...


----------



## bobperry

CONCERTO is 42' LOA.

Yes, the sub is steel. We were hired tomdo the styling. What you see is what we did. We worked with a sub design form in Florida for the real guts of the "pressure vessel". I'll post the smaller sub that was built later.


----------



## bobperry

My young intern Will with his very first set of hand drawn lines. This represents 3.5 days of hard work.

With that under his belt we transfered that hand drawn shape into my computer lines fairing program this morning and 4 hours later we have a finished set of preliminary hull lines. tomorrow we will work to refine it a bit.
Will is 16 years old, as old as I was when I first started drawing hull lines, 51 years ago.


----------



## smackdaddy

Go The Will!!!


----------



## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


>


That Bug is one of the coolest cars ever - the riveted spine down the centerline of the body of it is totally unique.

Ralph Lauren won Pebble Beach with his black one - I believe there are only 3 in existence. It was suggested that if Lauren put his on the market the price would approach *9 figures*.


----------



## bobperry

Yeah, I mean it's a nice car and all that but what about the mileage?


----------



## SloopJonB

What about the insurance? 

P.S. the reason for the rivets is not a styling exercise, the body is magnesium.


----------



## JonEisberg

bobperry said:


> My young intern Will with his very first set of hand drawn lines. This represents 3.5 days of hard work.
> 
> With that under his belt we transfered that hand drawn shape into my computer lines fairing program this morning and 4 hours later we have a finished set of preliminary hull lines. tomorrow we will work to refine it a bit.
> Will is 16 years old, as old as I was when I first started drawing hull lines, 51 years ago.


Bob, that is just freakin' _AWESOME_... I'm raising a glass to both of you as we speak... 

Tell Will I said Hello... He won't remember me, of course, but we met once in Nantucket aboard EVENSTAR about 5-6 years ago... Even then, it was obvious at a glance he would become a fine young man, having hit the Great Parents Lottery...

Spent an evening killing a nice bottle of wine with his dad, at the height of the Doctor Electron Era...  Ahhh, those were the days, eh?

You're a good man, Maestro...


----------



## bobperry

Jon: I do what I can. I can't help but relate to a kid who wants to design sailing yachts.
We have finished dinner and are headed off to bed, 8:20pm.

My kind of kid.


----------



## Jeff_H

Bob, 

I have to congratulate you on doing this for Steve. Over the years, I have been very blessed to have people take an interest in me, providing me with gifts of thier knowledge and wisdom. These gifts have shaped who I became in life, and how my life has been led. One of the greatest gifts was the time that Myron Rapport, a designer with S&S, spent with me when I was a kid, tutoring me in yacht design. His lessons are with me still. Myron's biggest lesson was how meaningful and rewarding it can be to both the mentor and the young person to have an adult take an interest in their interest and help them learn and grow in a positive direction. 

Cudos,
Jeff


----------



## bobperry

Jeff:
The lad's name is Will Porter.

Steve is that other guy.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent,

I was glad to see that your site has stepped in to help Monsieur Tanton:



> Hello,
> Sorry to bother, I had a sudden trip out of the country to Greece to see my ill cousin, she's suffering from a Kidney disease and must undergo surgery to save her life.
> The surgery is cheap here in Greece, I traveled with little money due to the short time I had to prepare for this trip and never expected things to be the way it is right now as my credit card can't work here. I need a loan of 2,500euros from you to pay the balance before the commencement of the surgical operation and will reimburse you at my return. I'll really appreciate whatever amount you can come up with if not all, get back to me I'll advise on how to transfer it.
> Thanks,
> Yves Marie Tanton


At least the Nigerians spelled his name correctly.


----------



## bobperry

Smackers:
I got one of those the other night too. I almost suspected it was real. I've known Yves-Marie for a long time. But I slept on it and conferred with an advisor and he determined it was a scam. In fact the Nigerians left out the hyphen between Yves and Marie.


----------



## jak3b

I got an email from my friend about 2 hours after I got home from sailing with him.He was in Ukraine and needed money to get home;-).


----------



## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> Jeff:
> The lad's name is Will Porter.
> 
> Steve is that other guy.


Bob,

Sorry about the mix up on the name, but I still think its a wonderful thing that you are doing. I also think is a neat thing that Will is doing. For that matter I am still extremely appreciative of your kind guidance on Wolf's boat project. I learned a lot.

Jeff


----------



## bobperry

My pleasure Jeff. I enjoy watching a kid learn some of the old techniques. I had him use my digital planimeter two days ago. I think I may have him go through the entire hydrostatic calculations just so he can get a feel for how they are arrived as opposed to just pushing a button. Not sure yet. I don't want to waste time. I have only 13 more days with him here.


----------



## bpgoll

A little known disadvantage of having a steel boat is that in the event of a lightning strike the boat can become strongly magnetised rendering all onboard compasses useless. Ask me how I know this!


----------



## smackdaddy

bpgoll said:


> A little known disadvantage of having a steel boat is that in the event of a lightning strike the boat can become strongly magnetised rendering all onboard compasses useless. Ask me how I know this!


Ok - I smell a hell of a story. Spill it!


----------



## jak3b

Here a nice story about a steel boat:
A big, bad, breaking wave caught us sideways and rolled the boat through 360 degrees. The hatches collapsed; the heater chimney was ripped clean off; the mast snapped at deck level and water poured in everywhere. Our inflatable dinghy was torn in half. Paul was reading in his forward bunk when we were struck &#8230; He came looking for me. I was upside down, unconscious and under a metre of water, in the shower room. My scalp was split open and there was a lot of blood. &#8230; He hauled me to my feet and I came to quickly but had very little understanding of events. I kept asking Paul, 'What ocean are we in?' &#8230;[According to Paul, the boat was upside down for several minutes.]

We had trouble activating our emergency beacon. &#8230; I was deathly cold, sitting in the cockpit. My clothes were soaked and I shivered uncontrollably. It was getting dark and I knew I would not make it through the night. The boat was taking on water [probably through the sink outlet and the loo, although Pete didn't realise it at the time], the batteries were flooded and no pumps were working. We were sinking. After two hours there was no sign of rescue, nor had we any idea whether or not our signal was received by anyone. Paul found a 2-way radio and I transmitted our mayday message. No answer.
We sat in the slowly filling cockpit, sipping on a bottle of fine whisky and staring off into the wild waves and night. Boozing was the worst thing a couple of hypothermic boys can do, but there is the matter of style. I was resigned to the inevitable &#8230;

The boat was awash now and I told Paul to get ready. Two more waves and she went down. We stepped up into the ocean with no sign of a helicopter in sight but I held the strobe light beacon in one hand and tried to keep my head clear of the breaking waves. I drank a lot of sea water. Then, a lovely sight. Searchlights on the water from the low-flying helicopter coming towards us.
The pilots hovered clear of the huge waves and dropped one swimmer on a cable and then another. These brave boys hauled us to safety.

Everything was at the limit. The helicopter's range, our ability to stay afloat, our strength, our hopes. They did it and we survived.

from here:
https://petepowell.wordpress.com/2014/01/19/last-post-wherein-we-sink/


----------



## SloopJonB

Couldn't have been a Brentboat.


----------



## mitiempo

It is apparently a custom steel Passport designed by Bob, according to the blog.


----------



## smackdaddy

jak3b said:


> We sat in the slowly filling cockpit, sipping on a bottle of fine whisky and staring off into the wild waves and night. Boozing was the worst thing a couple of hypothermic boys can do, but there is the matter of style. I was resigned to the inevitable &#8230;


This is the way to do it. Cheers lads.


----------



## bobperry

That's damn depressing. That boat was almost 30 years old if memory serves and a fairly nicely built muti chine, conically developed version of a Passport 40. Maybe if it had one of Brent's steel companionway doors it would have survived. Maybe.


----------



## jak3b

I doubt it Bob, It wasnt just the companion way it was the other hatches, stove chimney and mast and port holes being ripped right out.Lots of gaping holes.What struck me about it is it was that the hull material really didnt matter the boat sank anyway.I guess if you are into playing bumper cars with ledges ,running aground alot,reef smashing,demo derbys etc steal is the way to go, I guess.Im enjoying the book Bob.


----------



## smackdaddy

Bummer. Another steel boat goes down.

Had they built it out of fiberglass it would have been fine.


----------



## sortant

Stiff up the Keel


----------



## MikeJohns

bpgoll said:


> A little known disadvantage of having a steel boat is that in the event of a lightning strike the boat can become strongly magnetised rendering all onboard compasses useless. Ask me how I know this!


It's not common, the majority of steel boats struck get no extra deviation and when they do it's temporary. But it is something you need to be aware of.

I've seen up to 35 degrees extra deviation after a strike on a steel coastal fishing boat. The effect had gone after a few days. Dangerous though if you didn't know. GPS derived headings are still accurate so it's easy to check.

I hadn't yet heard of a sailboat where this happened.

Usually lightening problems are much worse on non conductive hulls from hull fittings blown out when no lightening path installed. The bolt tries to follow a thin wire, vaporizes it and then uses the ionized gas path as the conductor. The wire leads to the transducer which gets blown out in the process.

I'd put surviving lightening strike as a big plus for metal boats. You have the same protection as being in a road vehicle.


----------



## outbound

Came back yesterday from helping a friend bring his outbound from BVI to the adult day camp at George Town. Was struck by how many steel boats where in there growing beards at the waterline. Most were hard chine but some beautifully executed. Several were fully developed hulls and gorgeous. Still when going by in the ding you could tell they were steel. Few flags on the sterns were U.S. mostly Canadian but clearly these boats can and do voyage. Huge variations in designs. The ability to execute a boat without the need for expensive tooling and molds is a significant advantage for metal boats.
It's unfortunate this thread has focused on origami as I did NOT see a SINGLE origami boat. 
Brent- The world wants to know- other then yourself who do you respect as a steel boat designer/N.A.? Particularly interested in if you respect anyone building in plate and frame construction.


----------



## Classic30

jak3b said:


> Here a nice story about a steel boat:
> A big, bad, breaking wave caught us sideways and rolled the boat through 360 degrees. The hatches collapsed; the heater chimney was ripped clean off; the mast snapped at deck level and water poured in everywhere. Our inflatable dinghy was torn in half. Paul was reading in his forward bunk when we were struck &#8230; He came looking for me. I was upside down, unconscious and under a metre of water, in the shower room. My scalp was split open and there was a lot of blood. &#8230; He hauled me to my feet and I came to quickly but had very little understanding of events. I kept asking Paul, 'What ocean are we in?' &#8230;[According to Paul, the boat was upside down for several minutes.]
> 
> We had trouble activating our emergency beacon. &#8230; I was deathly cold, sitting in the cockpit. My clothes were soaked and I shivered uncontrollably. It was getting dark and I knew I would not make it through the night. The boat was taking on water [probably through the sink outlet and the loo, although Pete didn't realise it at the time], the batteries were flooded and no pumps were working. We were sinking. After two hours there was no sign of rescue, nor had we any idea whether or not our signal was received by anyone. Paul found a 2-way radio and I transmitted our mayday message. No answer.
> We sat in the slowly filling cockpit, sipping on a bottle of fine whisky and staring off into the wild waves and night. Boozing was the worst thing a couple of hypothermic boys can do, but there is the matter of style. I was resigned to the inevitable &#8230;
> 
> The boat was awash now and I told Paul to get ready. Two more waves and she went down. We stepped up into the ocean with no sign of a helicopter in sight but I held the strobe light beacon in one hand and tried to keep my head clear of the breaking waves. I drank a lot of sea water. Then, a lovely sight. Searchlights on the water from the low-flying helicopter coming towards us.
> The pilots hovered clear of the huge waves and dropped one swimmer on a cable and then another. These brave boys hauled us to safety.
> 
> Everything was at the limit. The helicopter's range, our ability to stay afloat, our strength, our hopes. They did it and we survived.
> 
> from here:
> https://petepowell.wordpress.com/2014/01/19/last-post-wherein-we-sink/


They should have made a movie about it - if it starred Robert Redford, they might have won an Oscar. 

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/117698-one-last-all-lost-thread.html


----------



## A. Mann

bobperry said:


> 351:
> No he doesn't.
> I have a piano in my office and I don't play.
> A home is not a home without a piano.
> I have plenty of friends that play.
> My piano was once my Dad's piano.
> I like it.


I recall in the other lace you were an admirer of Thunderhead (The Rhodes Cutter). Original owner is a good friend. When his dad built it one concession to Mom was to have an organ on board as shown below. Current owners have documented her very nicely on a website.

http://www.oncearound.org/atlantic/vessel/vessel_images/ORIG_TH_7sm.jpg


----------



## bobperry

Mr. Mann:
Yes, THUNDERHEAD has been a top favorite of mine going back to when I was a teenager. I have always been a Rhodes fan. CARINA just might be my all time Fav.

Many thanks for the link.

Looks like a small Hammond organ but I can't be sure. The stops look like Hammond stops.


----------



## A. Mann

bobperry said:


> Mr. Mann:
> Yes, THUNDERHEAD has been a top favorite of mine going back to when I was a teenager. I have always been a Rhodes fan. CARINA just might be my all time Fav.
> Many thanks for the link.
> Looks like a small Hammond organ but I can't be sure. The stops look like Hammond stops.


Ahh.. Carina - unfort Ive raced against her many times and have seen her stern while owing her time. Cant say I have the same perspective.

A similar boat is Coup D'etat, a 1972 McCurdy Rhodes (48 ft) aluminum which was recently completely restored on the East Coast. Fantastic job.
Documented here. COUP D'ETAT (USA414)

McCurdy - Rhodes did fine work.

Sorry to digress

Mr. A. Mann
(Former owner of a 1976 Seafarer 31 MK I (McCurdy Rhodes)


----------



## bobperry

Very nice. We won't see many more like that built today. It has the look of a classic American yacht.


----------



## Brent Swain

Brent Swain said:


> That skeg could probably use a bit of beefing up. Many high aspect skegs on steel boats are grossly under built. Extending the root further forward will give it more bearing on the hull. Then, putting a 6 inch wide fillet strip on a 45 degree angle, connecting the skeg to the hull, will spread the load athwartships over the hull. Inside, a couple of 3/16th plate webs , six inches deep amidships , going at least as far as the first chine, will spread the load across the hull. If you put longitudinal gussets, connecting the weld line , from the fillet pieces outside, to the webs ,it will give you the structural equivalent of having continued the skeg sides thru, and slotted them into the webs.
> On a new boat, the strongest way to built a high aspect ratio skeg is to run the skeg right thru, and weld it to the cockpit floor.


In the bare steel stage is a good time to weld in a keel cooler, and benefit by one of the huge advantages of a metal hull, the elimination of the heat exchanger, seawater intake and salt water pump, and outlet , a huge source of engine problems . You can build one inside existing frames and longitudinals by fully welding them to the hull, on the inside of the cooling tank. Then you weld flatbar on edge, to make the coolant flow back and forth over as much hull distance as possible . 2 inch tacks every 6 inches is plenty of weld for that job Then you make the cover plate. You can suck that down with bolts welded to the hull and passing thru holes in the cover plate. After you have bolted it down, you weld the bolts and nuts up solidly. Using a smooth flowing rod like 6013 lets you see any holes and potential leaks easily. While I have found that it takes 1.5 sq ft per ten hp , doing a huge overkill on surface area is a good idea and wont hurt anything . Run your hot water, coming form the engine, in the top and take your colder water from the bottom. Using anti freeze helps reduce corrosion, but adding a bit of water soluable machine oil is a good idea, and eliminates corrosion.
Make several of these cooling tanks. If you don't use them all, they wont hurt anything.


----------



## Brent Swain

With a steel hull, any hot pipes running thru it (exhaust, stove pipe, etc)should have stainless plate, set in flush, for the first two or three inches around it. Even with a wet exhaust, you still see rust around the exhaust pipe, due to slightly elevated temperatures around it. Every ten degrees rise in temperature increases the corrosion rate considerably. 
With a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 exhaust running thru the transom, I like to weld a 2 1/2 inch length of 4 inch SS tube centred around where it runs thru, to make a good place to end the insulation. A similar piece of tube around the stove pipe makes a good way to finish the panelling. Sometimes you can find an SS angle flange, for an excellent finish to the panelling.


----------



## bobperry

I like Brent's posts where he lays down nuggets of practical steel boatbuilding experience. Even I can understand. I like it when I understand.


----------



## outbound

Brent how to you do instruments and thru hulls. Have seen instruments in sea chests and thru hulls as simple stand pipes. Seems this is easy to do in metal boats.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Brent how to you do instruments and thru hulls. Have seen instruments in sea chests and thru hulls as simple stand pipes. Seems this is easy to do in metal boats.


For thru hulls, I simply weld in stainless sch 40 pipe nipples. I have been doing that for over 40 years with no problems of any kind. I was once moored off a shipyard in Auckland, which had tried every kind of thru hull they could think of and, after decades of steel boat building, found that a welded in stainless pipe nipple was the best and simplest . I have had no problem whatever with them. Another advantage is you don't have to run them at 90 degrees to the hull plate. You can run them vertical, which can save a lot of space. I use stainless type 316 ball valves on them, which have given me no problems in over 40 years . Putting a stainless sch 40 standpipe in the ball valve eliminates the chance of sinking by a bad hose or hose connection. I have done that too. Or you can put the ball valve at the top of the stand pipe .
I have welded in transducer mount housings, no problem , but a couple of tabs for a transom mount fish finder also works well.


----------



## A. Mann

Brent Swain said:


> For thru hulls, I simply weld in stainless sch 40 pipe nipples. I have been doing that for over 40 years with no problems of any kind. I was once moored off a shipyard in Auckland, which had tried every kind of thru hull they could think of and, after decades of steel boat building, found that a welded in stainless pipe nipple was the best and simplest . I have had no problem whatever with them. Another advantage is you don't have to run them at 90 degrees to the hull plate. You can run them vertical, which can save a lot of space. I use stainless type 316 ball valves on them, which have given me no problems in over 40 years . Putting a stainless sch 40 standpipe in the ball valve eliminates the chance of sinking by a bad hose or hose connection. I have done that too. Or you can put the ball valve at the top of the stand pipe .
> I have welded in transducer mount housings, no problem , but a couple of tabs for a transom mount fish finder also works well.


Wow! Holy Cow!


----------



## Brent Swain

Brent Swain said:


> With a steel hull, any hot pipes running thru it (exhaust, stove pipe, etc)should have stainless plate, set in flush, for the first two or three inches around it. Even with a wet exhaust, you still see rust around the exhaust pipe, due to slightly elevated temperatures around it. Every ten degrees rise in temperature increases the corrosion rate considerably.
> With a 1 1/2 inch sch 40 exhaust running thru the transom, I like to weld a 2 1/2 inch length of 4 inch SS tube centred around where it runs thru, to make a good place to end the insulation. A similar piece of tube around the stove pipe makes a good way to finish the panelling. Sometimes you can find an SS angle flange, for an excellent finish to the panelling.


In the bare steel stage is a good place to weld 1/8th inch stainless doubler plates in the bow ,where the anchor would chip the paint, instead of the long flimsy bow rollers some use. I see cruise ships have finally clued into this, and are now covering their anchor spots with stainless, after decades of repainting over the rust stains in every port.
Such plates, bolted on, also work well on plastic and wooden boats.


----------



## outbound

Brent most modern grp boats have ss as substrate for bow rollers/sprite. Mine's 318 and not a speck of rust in spite of using only chain for rode. It's a casting I believe and quite pretty. The short sprite keeps anchor away from hull even when we run over the anchor a bit so the hull has remained pristine. Putting plate up there would be unpleasing to my eye but I see why it would be a good idea for many boats and have seen it done without detracting from appearance.


----------



## bobperry

We have a similar SS anchor knocker plate on the custom 46'er I posted here. I'll dig up a rendering when I am back on my own computer. I am working with my intern today, again.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Brent most modern grp boats have ss as substrate for bow rollers/sprite. Mine's 318 and not a speck of rust in spite of using only chain for rode. It's a casting I believe and quite pretty. The short sprite keeps anchor away from hull even when we run over the anchor a bit so the hull has remained pristine. Putting plate up there would be unpleasing to my eye but I see why it would be a good idea for many boats and have seen it done without detracting from appearance.


I once anchored at Isla Isabella , northwest of Puerto Vallarta. Next morning I couldn't get my anchor up, so had to dive for it in the murky water., in a swell. With combination of swell and the anchor jammed under a rock slab, the loads on it were huge . It caused the crown of the anchor to peel like a banana. When I got to PV, I saw a lot of yachts with bent and mangled anchors, bow rollers and bow sprits, from the same anchorage. That is why I believe a bow roller should be stronger than the biggest line which will ever go over it, both vertically and sideways, as a boat getting off a lee shore in a gale will put tremendous side loads on her bow roller. Lack of ability to take such loads was what put a lot of boats on the beach in Cabo in 82.
I believe cleats ,chocks and mooring gear should also be stronger than the breaking strength of the biggest line which will ever be used on them. Long, extended bow roller arrangements meant to keep the anchor clear of the hull, usually have no such strength, not vertically, and certainly not sideways.


----------



## Brent Swain

jak3b said:


> Here a nice story about a steel boat:
> A big, bad, breaking wave caught us sideways and rolled the boat through 360 degrees. The hatches collapsed; the heater chimney was ripped clean off; the mast snapped at deck level and water poured in everywhere. Our inflatable dinghy was torn in half. Paul was reading in his forward bunk when we were struck &#8230; He came looking for me. I was upside down, unconscious and under a metre of water, in the shower room. My scalp was split open and there was a lot of blood. &#8230; He hauled me to my feet and I came to quickly but had very little understanding of events. I kept asking Paul, 'What ocean are we in?' &#8230;[According to Paul, the boat was upside down for several minutes.]
> 
> We had trouble activating our emergency beacon. &#8230; I was deathly cold, sitting in the cockpit. My clothes were soaked and I shivered uncontrollably. It was getting dark and I knew I would not make it through the night. The boat was taking on water [probably through the sink outlet and the loo, although Pete didn't realise it at the time], the batteries were flooded and no pumps were working. We were sinking. After two hours there was no sign of rescue, nor had we any idea whether or not our signal was received by anyone. Paul found a 2-way radio and I transmitted our mayday message. No answer.
> We sat in the slowly filling cockpit, sipping on a bottle of fine whisky and staring off into the wild waves and night. Boozing was the worst thing a couple of hypothermic boys can do, but there is the matter of style. I was resigned to the inevitable &#8230;
> 
> The boat was awash now and I told Paul to get ready. Two more waves and she went down. We stepped up into the ocean with no sign of a helicopter in sight but I held the strobe light beacon in one hand and tried to keep my head clear of the breaking waves. I drank a lot of sea water. Then, a lovely sight. Searchlights on the water from the low-flying helicopter coming towards us.
> The pilots hovered clear of the huge waves and dropped one swimmer on a cable and then another. These brave boys hauled us to safety.
> 
> Everything was at the limit. The helicopter's range, our ability to stay afloat, our strength, our hopes. They did it and we survived.
> 
> from here:
> https://petepowell.wordpress.com/2014/01/19/last-post-wherein-we-sink/


I don't think you would lose the aluminium hatches on my boats, nor the one piece door on the boat Bob just posted a picture of ( no flimsy, yachtie style sliding hatches, made of fragile, dead vegetation)
I don't think you would rip the 4 inch by 1/8th inch wall stove pipe, welded into the decks of any of my boats. You could use them as mooring bits. I have only one thru hull in operation; the sink drain. I welded the handle on its ball valve at a 45 degree angle so I can use a push rod extension on it ,eliminating the need to reach past anything to turn it off. The only other one, the watermaker intake, is only open when in use. Deck stepped masts don't let water in. My half inch plexi ports are unlikely to break , unlike expensive, fragile, yachtie style, plastic opening ports. Hand pumps need no batteries.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Came back yesterday from helping a friend bring his outbound from BVI to the adult day camp at George Town. Was struck by how many steel boats where in there growing beards at the waterline. Most were hard chine but some beautifully executed. Several were fully developed hulls and gorgeous. Still when going by in the ding you could tell they were steel. Few flags on the sterns were U.S. mostly Canadian but clearly these boats can and do voyage. Huge variations in designs. The ability to execute a boat without the need for expensive tooling and molds is a significant advantage for metal boats.
> It's unfortunate this thread has focused on origami as I did NOT see a SINGLE origami boat.
> Brent- The world wants to know- other then yourself who do you respect as a steel boat designer/N.A.? Particularly interested in if you respect anyone building in plate and frame construction.


I have always admired Wittholtz, simple, functional, single chine boats, with rudders in the right place ,over the transom . Ganly also has some extremely practical, functional designs. Tanton also has some very practical, logical designs. As imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and his 31 and 36 footers are imitations of my own designs, I could hardly be critical of them. 
I went looking for Tad Roberts in Silva bay a few days ago. No sign of him or his design office . With the heydays of boat design long gone, and the market awash in used boats being given away, there is nowhere near the future in designing pleasure boats that there once was. That, and demographic changes, will probably put most out of business, unless they think outside the box, and offer something different from what most are offering .
Youth would be wise to look elsewhere for a career.


----------



## Classic30

Brent Swain said:


> I don't think you would lose the aluminium hatches on my boats, nor the one piece door on the boat Bob just posted a picture of ( no flimsy, yachtie style sliding hatches, made of fragile, dead vegetation)


Actually, Brent, I kinda like my floating patch of dead vegetation with it's dead vegetation hatches and cast-bronze ports. It's not particularly fragile, either - but then perhaps not as rugged as yours.

"Petite"... rather than "butch".


----------



## bobperry

Well, there you have it:
Different strokes for different folks.
It's worked for many years.

I really do not want to be Brent anymore than he wants to be me.

We each do it our own way and we like our own ways. I enjoy watching Brent do it his way. He has much to teach.


----------



## Lou452

With the age of the baby boomers starting to see the last sunset,  boats will become a little less expensive ? Any type of design will need to have value to survive ? A blue water boat should also be more affordable. The young of today's world have less time to travel ? They have more choice in what to spend their limited time on.
Would you view this as truthful ?
Thoughts ?
Kind Regards, Lou


----------



## SloopJonB

Lou452 said:


> With the age of the baby boomers starting to see the last sunset,


Not quite there yet but I heard it put as "We're moving into the turnstiles now" - Jane Fonda after Henry died.


----------



## smackdaddy

I really love the ebb and flow of threads like this. The water has calmed. The rhetoric is sensical. It is good.


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> . Ganly also has some extremely practical, functional designs.


Do you mean Dennis Ganley the New Zealander??

If so then yes I agree, he had penned some of the most capable blue water steel boats over this side of the world.

We considered the below 'tara' design when were looking for a cruising boat. At the time though there were no appropriate candidates.

Used Ganley Tara 39 for Sale | Yachts For Sale | Yachthub


----------



## aeventyr60

chall03 said:


> Do you mean Dennis Ganley the New Zealander??
> 
> If so then yes I agree, he had penned some of the most capable blue water steel boats over this side of the world.
> 
> We considered the below 'tara' design when were looking for a cruising boat. At the time though there were no appropriate candidates.
> 
> Used Ganley Tara 39 for Sale | Yachts For Sale | Yachthub


The Ganley "passagmaker" is a nice design. sorry I have no links. saw several in New Zealand.


----------



## aeventyr60

Brent Swain said:


> I once anchored at Isla Isabella , northwest of Puerto Vallarta. Next morning I couldn't get my anchor up, so had to dive for it in the murky water., in a swell. With combination of swell and the anchor jammed under a rock slab, the loads on it were huge . It caused the crown of the anchor to peel like a banana. When I got to PV, I saw a lot of yachts with bent and mangled anchors, bow rollers and bow sprits, from the same anchorage. That is why I believe a bow roller should be stronger than the biggest line which will ever go over it, both vertically and sideways, as a boat getting off a lee shore in a gale will put tremendous side loads on her bow roller. Lack of ability to take such loads was what put a lot of boats on the beach in Cabo in 82.
> I believe cleats ,chocks and mooring gear should also be stronger than the breaking strength of the biggest line which will ever be used on them. Long, extended bow roller arrangements meant to keep the anchor clear of the hull, usually have no such strength, not vertically, and certainly not sideways.


Probably poor deployment of a snubber. We too saw this in Mexico amongst the newbies. Most of the rollers and bow cleats are in now way capable of handling the strains of a boat bouncing around in a swell. Not surprising we don't see many boats with sampson posts or other sturdy deck hardware on the modern production boats.


----------



## outbound

Nice to rig two snubbers and not have lines to trip on in the foredeck. Bow cleats suffice. Had boat with Sampson post. It was always in the way.
Along with Charlie Witzholtz some of the old Alan Pape designs are very eye catching, strong and sail well. Many were made in the same sizes Brent works in. Actually got study plans from him and went to welding school with intention of building one of his cutters ( Yes Bob a true cutter not slutter or butter -LOL). Wimped when realized how much work it is to build an interior. Focus as been on hull material. My impression has been and still is the overwhelming majority of the man hours (and expense) are in the interior.
My current boat has integral tanks with interiors coated in epoxy. That's unusual in grp but common in metal boats. The ease of this is clearly an advantage for metal boats but more so in aluminum then Fe unless well designed and executed. Impression is in Fe Ok for fuel but more difficult for black/grey/fresh water.


----------



## bobperry

Junk rigged main sail and two jibs= cunk.


----------



## outbound

:laugher Sprit on fore mast junk rigged main with solent/genny= spunk


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## bobperry

ketch rig, one jib, junk rigged main=skunk


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## bobperry

Yawl rig with sprit rigged main=sprawl


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## outbound

There was a guy up to Maine who was building strip plank, flush deck single masted junks. Very heavy displacement full keeled boats. Boat was set up to be entirely run while sitting inside a perplex dome. Blocking his name but advantage was unlike Fe/Al don't need insulation before putting in an interior. Had a 30' ocean going design. Need to insulate is a disadvantage for metal boats where as cored grp or wood have R value from the start.


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## outbound

O stop.. you're going to make me pee and I'm still at work.


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## SloopJonB

outbound said:


> My impression has been and still is the overwhelming majority of the man hours (and expense) are in the interior.


Man hours are in the interior but the cost is in the hardware, rigging & sails.

One of the reason that racing boats started getting stripped out years ago was the cost savings more than the weight.


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## outbound

You're right of course but was thinking either you're building the interior instead of working a paying job or you are paying someone to do it. Need to build a kitty until you leave. Also now need a set of woodworking tools as well as your metal tools and some infill stuff is expensive unless you go without refrig,gimballed propane stove etc. A bunch of pipe berthes, portable stove and dehydrated or mountain expedition food does not add much to cost of boat but we are non macho snail paced cruisers ( grin)


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## Brent Swain

chall03 said:


> Do you mean Dennis Ganley the New Zealander??
> 
> If so then yes I agree, he had penned some of the most capable blue water steel boats over this side of the world.
> 
> We considered the below 'tara' design when were looking for a cruising boat. At the time though there were no appropriate candidates.
> 
> Used Ganley Tara 39 for Sale | Yachts For Sale | Yachthub


Yes that Denis Ganley. He had the benefit of hands on steel experience, and understood steel .He was not going simply by what he had read, nor what he had been told ,by people who don't understand the material.


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## Brent Swain

aeventyr60 said:


> Probably poor deployment of a snubber. We too saw this in Mexico amongst the newbies. Most of the rollers and bow cleats are in now way capable of handling the strains of a boat bouncing around in a swell. Not surprising we don't see many boats with sampson posts or other sturdy deck hardware on the modern production boats.


A snubber doesn't help you when you are trying to get your anchor back aboard in a swell, and don't know what it is snagged under. Few if any production boat bow rollers would survive that kind of strain.


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> There was a guy up to Maine who was building strip plank, flush deck single masted junks. Very heavy displacement full keeled boats. Boat was set up to be entirely run while sitting inside a perplex dome. Blocking his name but advantage was unlike Fe/Al don't need insulation before putting in an interior. Had a 30' ocean going design. Need to insulate is a disadvantage for metal boats where as cored grp or wood have R value from the start.


On my first boat I lived under a wooden deck in winter. It was covered in ice during the cold snaps. Wood is no comparison with foam, and has little insulating value. You cant properly insulate it without causing rot. Friends trying to live aboard wooden boats have that curse. They are anything but comfortable. Foam core is great , but anything including Fibreglass passing thru it can drip like a faucet. The ability to insulate steel properly is a huge advantage of a steel boat.


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## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> Man hours are in the interior but the cost is in the hardware, rigging & sails.
> 
> One of the reason that racing boats started getting stripped out years ago was the cost savings more than the weight.


My interior took three days to rough in, and cost me around $50 for materials.
Back then , most of the motorcycles coming from Asia came in beautiful tropical hardwood shipping crates, free for the taking. Back in the 80s when Bobs boats were being shipped from Asia, a guy in Vancouver found a piece of wood on the beach . He picked it up and found it was teak. He followed a trail of it back to where Taiwanese boats were being unloaded and found their cradles were solid teak ,which he was given a truckload of, for free.
Used plywood is far more reliable than new stuff, especially if it has been outside for some of its life, without delaminating. You don't get that kind of pre-testing with new plywood. Given the small sizes which are used on boats interiors, there is plenty of it around, for free.
With a steel boat , much of the hardware is built in place, for a fraction the cost of buying it, in a fraction the time it takes to go buy it. We are awash in used sails, for a fraction the cost of materials. We once bought enough rigging wire, fresh off the spool, from a scrapyard, to rig a 36, for $24. My turn buckles, $26 each when I first bought them back in 84 , now cost $17 each
A steel mast can be built for under $1,000, but with so many boats being scrapped, an aluminium one, complete with rig, could be acquired for less today. Of all the boats I have built or know to have been built, only three have converted from a steel mast to aluminium, and all have said the change in sailing performance was minimal. Switching from steel to aluminium mast would be far more common, had the hull had any kind of stability problems


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## Brent Swain

Steve just told me he had accepted an offer on Silas Crosby for very close to asking price. That sure didn't take long!


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Steve just told me he had accepted an offer on Silas Crosby for very close to asking price. That sure didn't take long!


Yeah - I guess 6 months on the market isn't too bad. But you said a month or so ago that it had already sold then:



Brent Swain said:


> Winston just sold his 36 ft brentboat for $47K in two months after first advertising her. *Silas Crosby just sold just as quickly.* Viski ( another 36 ft brentboat) sold within days of putting her up for sale.


So are you sure it's sold now? It's still listed for sale on his website.

What was the final selling price?


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## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> My interior took three days to rough in, and cost me around $50 for materials.
> Back then , most of the motorcycles coming from Asia came in beautiful tropical hardwood shipping crates, free for the taking. Back in the 80s when Bobs boats were being shipped from Asia, a guy in Vancouver found a piece of wood on the beach . He picked it up and found it was teak. He followed a trail of it back to where Taiwanese boats were being unloaded and found their cradles were solid teak ,which he was given a truckload of, for free.
> Used plywood is far more reliable than new stuff, especially if it has been outside for some of its life, without delaminating. You don't get that kind of pre-testing with new plywood. Given the small sizes which are used on boats interiors, there is plenty of it around, for free.


I was referring to a complete "yacht style" interior, not a roughed in work boat style.

I got some of those shipping cradle components back in the 70's but mine were never teak, they were gum wood. Hard as steel and about as heavy. One pass of a 20 footer dulled a carbide blade. 

You won't find that anymore.


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## MikeJohns

SloopJonB said:


> I was referring to a complete "yacht style" interior, not a roughed in work boat style.
> 
> I got some of those shipping cradle components back in the 70's but mine were never teak, they were gum wood. Hard as steel and about as heavy. One pass of a 20 footer dulled a carbide blade.
> 
> You won't find that anymore.


Yep it's hard stuff. Various dense Eucalypt species ( gum) were and still are used for boat building and marine structures here. It's heavy stuff and very dense.

Steel hulls are lighter than those built of dense hardwoods for the same size and displacement. The Eucalypt hardwoods despite being tough are prone to rotting if fresh water is trapped anywhere. But they are very stable timbers.

Barques and barquentines, brigs and brigantines, whalers, barges, coastal lighters were often framed and planked below the WL with these hard dense 
timbers. But only the steel ones survive, often after years as a breakwater or wreck.


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## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> I was referring to a complete "yacht style" interior, not a roughed in work boat style.
> 
> I got some of those shipping cradle components back in the 70's but mine were never teak, they were gum wood. Hard as steel and about as heavy. One pass of a 20 footer dulled a carbide blade.
> 
> You won't find that anymore.


The roughest wood butcher I ever knew was hired to put an interior in a boat, because he was fast. Then the owner hired a good finisher to finish it, and it looked superb, for a fraction the cost of hiring an expert for the whole job.
For interiors, gumwood is far beter than teak. It takes wear and nicks on corners far better.
I still see lots of if it around, free or super cheap.
Recycling depots are awash in perfectly useable tools, for super cheap. Enough to do an interior is not a whole lot of money


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## Brent Swain

MikeJohns said:


> Yep it's hard stuff. Various dense Eucalypt species ( gum) were and still are used for boat building and marine structures here. It's heavy stuff and very dense.
> 
> Steel hulls are lighter than those built of dense hardwoods for the same size and displacement. The Eucalypt hardwoods despite being tough are prone to rotting if fresh water is trapped anywhere. But they are very stable timbers.
> 
> Barques and barquentines, brigs and brigantines, whalers, barges, coastal lighters were often framed and planked below the WL with these hard dense
> timbers. But only the steel ones survive, often after years as a breakwater or wreck.


Some parts of iron tea clippers from the 1800s are still intact , in Royston BC. Irving Johnsons Yankee went ashore on Rarotonga, on a reef totally exposed to the open sea, in 1964. I walked around her in 1973 and she was basically intact and in one piece. How many hurricanes, at the rate of several per year on average, had she been thru in that time? Trismus , a sistership to Moitessiers Joshua, blew ashore on Rangiroa in 1975 , pounded there for ten years, before the locals got her off and, with minimum work, used her to ship coconuts around the lagoon. None of these boats had a full time crew maintaining them, as did the wooden boats mentioned.
Another sisterhip, Pygmalion blew ashore in Spain, and after days of up to 80 knot winds on an exposed lee shore , was still bone dry in the bilge with zero damage, when they lifted her of and moved her to a travel lift and relaunched her.
Any wooden boat would have broke up in 20 minutes in these conditions.


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## Classic30

Brent Swain said:


> Some parts of iron tea clippers from the 1800s are still intact , in Royston BC


..as are clippers _"Cutty Sark"_ and _"City of Adelaide"_ of the same era - both mostly made from dead vegetation.


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## Brent Swain

Steve told a friend a month ago that he had Silas crosby sold .He just confirmed that.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Steve told a friend a while back that he had Silas crosby sold .He just confirmed that.


Wait - you didn't answer my questions:

1. When exactly did he sell it? (It's still for sale on his site.)
2. Exactly how much did he get for it?


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## MikeJohns

Classic30 said:


> ..as are clippers _"Cutty Sark"_ and _"City of Adelaide"_ of the same era - both mostly made from dead vegetation.


And the only two remaining composite clippers.

The structure is all metal, the keelsons and all framing in both ships are metal and that's why they survived even as hulks. Even recent fires 

The global structure wouldn't have been feasible without the metal and the wood is just the hull shell with those ships. As iron plate became cheaper and more available shipbuilding quickly switched from timber cladding to iron and steel plate.

Many of the wooden ships were built for a short commercial (or military) life out of cheaply available timbers and cheap labor. But the clipper ships were well built and they needed composite construction which quickly gave way to the superior all metal construction, 
Many old iron hulks would have been around today relatively intact but they were broken for their iron in WW1. Probably partially lie scattered over parts of France.


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## Classic30

MikeJohns said:


> And the only two remaining composite clippers.
> 
> The structure is all metal, the keelsons and all framing in both ships are metal and that's why they survived even as hulks. Even recent fires


Meh.. A minor technicality.


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## Capt Len

Some of these old wrecks were and may still be a wonderful source of quality teak.Brian Walker lifted most of the decks of the old Lipton's tea clipper in Bowen sound ( Or perhaps it was the Sacramento) to make the Passing Cloud (68 ft schooner) All the teak on my Thane was resawn timber from the bulkhead of some unknown wreck left at VMD in Victoria. Old ships doors sometimes find their way into recycle joints When every part of your vessel has a story to tell ?? well you just can't but that!


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## outbound

With nearly 100% of shipping being built in steel there can be little argument at present it is the preferred material for ships. This site concerns boats. Here given the physics of relativity small craft ( even a 70' mega yacht with fit on the deck of a ship making it a boat) the material requirements are different. With boats weight per unit volume of the material creates unfavorable downstream implications. This is true for M/V s but even more so for S/Vs. Question remains are these constraints sufficient to build in other materials. Steel can create a reasonably fast sailing yacht ( British Steel etc.) but one still is left with the relatively poor performance in vessels less than ~50' where poor d/l difficulties achieving good RM without untoward amounts of ballast and inability of easily constructing complex curves more severely limit design. Even a solid grp hull ( although it has non structural closed cell foam inside to prevent sweating) like mine allows one to sail at hull speed in moderate wind or beat effectively to allow good vmg. 200m days are not uncommon.With virtually all modern grp boats incorporating watertight bulkheads forward Brent's concern about debris is nearly a moot point. Failures of navigation will result in devastation for any vessel ( talk with the Italian cruise ships line) Most sailors love to sail. But most sailors also like to get there before the food runs out.
Brent has been repetitively asked for documentation of the performance and characteristics of his boats. Simple gross measures such as point of vanishing stability, sailing polars, RM, D/L etc. He has failed to do so. As Smack has implied this leads one to believe although they maybe little brick out houses the performance is so poor that any sailor would go mad ( perhaps that's it) trying to effectively cruise on one of his boats. Being unable to point or get anywhere except running in a strong breeze driving these folks nuts. Other designers in steel recognize these limitations. Plate on frame results in less total material and therefore less hull weight. Plate on frame with use of rolled plate allows for more flexibility in design allowing for an more effective hull. Plate on frame allows for no upward limitation in size. Plate on frame is the method used in almost all steel construction so regardless of where you are it will be familiar to any reasonable yard.
Brent has yet to address these fundamental issues
better performance of grp or Al then Fe
better resale for grp or AL then Fe
better performance of plate on frame than origami
Better durability of neglected Al or grp then Fe.


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## krisscross

Another nice little steel boat: 1996 Schreiber Boats George Buehler 'Jack' sailboat for sale in Florida
Probably very slow, but at least quite inexpensive.


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## Brent Swain

I just meta guy on a Foukes 39, in Maple Bay haulout, who was very critical of my boats the last time I met him. Now, after a circumnavigation around both Cape Horn and the Cape of Good Hope, and extensive cruising the Aleutians, he said his greatest regret was not following advice to do it in a brentboat.


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> With nearly 100% of shipping being built in steel there can be little argument at present it is the preferred material for ships. This site concerns boats. Here given the physics of relativity small craft ( even a 70' mega yacht with fit on the deck of a ship making it a boat) the material requirements are different. With boats weight per unit volume of the material creates unfavorable downstream implications. This is true for M/V s but even more so for S/Vs. Question remains are these constraints sufficient to build in other materials. Steel can create a reasonably fast sailing yacht ( British Steel etc.) but one still is left with the relatively poor performance in vessels less than ~50' where poor d/l difficulties achieving good RM without untoward amounts of ballast and inability of easily constructing complex curves more severely limit design. Even a solid grp hull ( although it has non structural closed cell foam inside to prevent sweating) like mine allows one to sail at hull speed in moderate wind or beat effectively to allow good vmg. 200m days are not uncommon.With virtually all modern grp boats incorporating watertight bulkheads forward Brent's concern about debris is nearly a moot point. Failures of navigation will result in devastation for any vessel ( talk with the Italian cruise ships line) Most sailors love to sail. But most sailors also like to get there before the food runs out.
> Brent has been repetitively asked for documentation of the performance and characteristics of his boats. Simple gross measures such as point of vanishing stability, sailing polars, RM, D/L etc. He has failed to do so. As Smack has implied this leads one to believe although they maybe little brick out houses the performance is so poor that any sailor would go mad ( perhaps that's it) trying to effectively cruise on one of his boats. Being unable to point or get anywhere except running in a strong breeze driving these folks nuts. Other designers in steel recognize these limitations. Plate on frame results in less total material and therefore less hull weight. Plate on frame with use of rolled plate allows for more flexibility in design allowing for an more effective hull. Plate on frame allows for no upward limitation in size. Plate on frame is the method used in almost all steel construction so regardless of where you are it will be familiar to any reasonable yard.
> Brent has yet to address these fundamental issues
> better performance of grp or Al then Fe
> better resale for grp or AL then Fe
> better performance of plate on frame than origami
> Better durability of neglected Al or grp then Fe.


Very few plastic boats have watertight bulkheads. I haven't seen any. None of the Bob Perry stock boats I have seen have had any. Bob, can you give us a list of all your production designs which come stock with water tight bulkheads?
Yes, a water tight bulkhead will keep a forepeak full of water from entering the main cabin and sinking you, but so will a hull tough enough to not get holed in the first place, which seems a far more intelligent route to go, and far better seamanship.
Ask Winston how long it took him to get to Hawaii from BC. Ask Andy , skipper on the Alert Bay ferry . Both will tell you, 14 to 15 days. Ask their crews. You call that slow? How much faster will your plastic boat go than that. Plenty of small steel cruisers are making just as good a passage times as plastic boats.
Thinner plate is far less forgiving when it comes to corrosion. Framing won't stop the plate from rusting thru much earlier in thin plate. I have seen several steel boats which were write offs which would be salvageable, had they been made of 3/16th plate.
If a sharp rock, or the corner of a cargo container, hits you between frames, thicker plate will do far more to resist holing than a frame far from the impact point, holding thinner plate. If anything, the framing on thinner plate will increase the odds of holing.
The gap between cost and resale price of an aluminium boat is far greater than mine. Re selling aluminium means a far greater loss , compared to what they cost you in the first place.
Hull and deck shape have a far greater effect on ultimate stability than ballast ratio.
My wheelhouse when submerged has a buoyancy of around 3500 lbs, the equivalent effect on ultimate stability of adding thousands of lbs to the keel . The trunk cabin ; many times that number.
Any hard chine hull design can easily be built using origami methods, including designs by Witholtz, Ganley, etc. Origami has no further restrictions on shape than any hard chine design, in fact fewer restrictions, given the option of conic ends, eliminating many feet of chines.
I have listed many failures of navigation which had almost zero consequences for my boats, which would have quickly sunk , and broken up most boats made of any other material. That collision with a large object at night 1,000 miles north of Hawaii would have sunk me, had I been on anything but a steel boat. Colliding with a container, or the huge concrete dock from Japan which washed ashore in Oregon, does not constitute a failure of navigation. Sailing on a dark, foggy or moonless night, such risks are unavoidable.
Curvy, plate on frame shapes are a huge waste of money and cruising time, given that any of their claimed benefits over hard chine origami boats are extremely marginal, if any .Don't expect anyone who has never built a steel boat with his own hands, to comprehend this. You may as well be speaking Chinese to a monolingual Greek. Best not get your advice on steel from such a purveyor of old wives tales and plastic boat sales pitches.

When choosing a cruising boat, past performance is a far better indicator than predicted results, predicted by someone with zero experience in the boat of your preference.( just as yesterday's weather record is more accurate than tomorrows weather forecast)
Your suggestion that every time a boat hits something, even in a remote area , it is "documented" somewhere, is laughable!
In 9 Pacific crossings , I have never met anyone in the average cruising boat under 40 feet, who has ever made a 200 mile day.

I am reminded of someone giving a slide show for the Bluewater Cruising Association, of his trip in the Vic Maui race. He kept talking about doing ten knots, then twelve knots, then slowing down in the Pacific high to 6 knots.
Later, a lady walked up to the guy and asked "How did you get such high speeds? We cruised all over the Pacific and rarely did six knots ." I said to her "Lady , if you divide the distance from Victoria to Hawaii by the number of days he took, he averaged under 5 knots, and that with a full racing crew, and many sail changes per day. " She laughed loudly, and the guy blushed deep red.
Such is the nature of claimed 200 mile days by heavily loaded cruising boats. Is there documentation! Ya sure! In the bar, after many cold ones, bought by the skipper!
Stability curves for my boats are posted on the origami boats site. Have been for years .


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## outbound

Brent you need to get out more. Most grp voyaging boats designed in last several decades have watertight bulkheads forward and any aft as well. On one hand you say fe boats don't rust than you say thick plate is more forgiving of rust. Them you make the absurd statement ballast has little impact on stability . Perhaps try for ail tipple hull totally dependent on form stability but so for monohulls . Then you stat another absurdity that a small heavy hull is as fast as a lighter well executed design. Please present data. Don't post just your opinions or hearsay again and again as it is no longer convincing
Thank you


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## Don L

Far as steel boats, if I won the lottery I wouldn't have to pause very long before ordering a nice Waterline sailboat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## bobperry

"Then you stat another absurdity that a small heavy hull is as fast as a lighter well executed design."

I don't think Brent knows very much about the current state of yacht performance. He's been out of the loop for way too many years. I sincerely doubt he's ever sailed a high performance boat. He knows nothing about them. He uses used sails and mains with no battens. "Fast" is very easily defined. Just look around. I would guess that the FT10m or even the FT7.5m could literally sail circles around any of his boats on any day. Brent may want to define his terms a little more specifically, narrow the criteria down a bit or he'll just end up looking uninformed again.

I'd love to take him out on an Ft10m in a breeze. Maybe ICON light air day. Maybe STEALTH CHICKEN on a blast reach. I'd show him some boat speed.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I just meta guy on a Foukes 39, in Maple Bay haulout, who was very critical of my boats the last time I met him. Now, after a circumnavigation around both Cape Horn and the Cape of Good Hope, and extensive cruising the Aleutians, he said his greatest regret was not following advice to do it in a brentboat.


I too meet people all the time who tell me how awesome I am.


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## bobperry

My dogs think I am awesome. Today we went for a long walk on the beach. The dogs played while I sat and watched. When we got home Ruby, my young dog said, "You are totally awesome Dad."


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## bobperry

Kim Went out on the SLIVER FRANCIS LEE to check the prop pitch after adjusting it up two notches. We got 9.3 knots with the first pitch setting on the four blade Max Prop. PYI suggested upping the pitch one notch. I suggested two. He was hitting top rpm way too easily. I knew we could do way better than 9.3 knots. He was doing over 10 knots when he turned around and went back to the dock. He didn't max it out but soon as he saw 10 knots + he thought that was enough. We may have another half a knot in it yet. Tonight Kim is very happy. He said there is no bow wave and no stern wave. That I will have to see for myself. I wish I were there but I have to go back to the East Coast on some boat business on Sunday so I am jammed here right now. ****ski!


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## outbound

My cat thinks I'm awesome but more importably so does my wife. Thanks good because I think she's awesome too


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## outbound

Say hello to Phil Bob . He's a good guy too. Was nervous about the four blade max prop but seems a good design from what you imply. Wonder with such a easily driven hull what mpg Kim will get. 
'Nother down side to bs boats for a cruiser. Given weight in the hull less available payload.less fuel. Less range under power. A non issue for a waterline or other 50'er in steel. Big issue in a 36'er where space and load carrying is at a premium. Had a real close crawl around the bilges look at a puffin done in steel.owner was ex ship captain. Boat was immaculate . Wood work was Bristol. Center boarder. The Dutch do great boats in steel. Truly understand the material. At 46' had ample tankage. Think in larger sizes proportion of total weight due to steel hull drops and then steel makes more sense.


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## bobperry

Out:
I am going to PSC in NC to check on the 62'er, play some music with my homies and have a good time.

Kim should burn 1.5 gals per hour at 10 knots but he probably will cruise at 9.5 so a bit less than 1.5 gals per hour.

Kim loves the prop, says it's like having brakes.


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## outbound

Then have fun with steve music and corn squeezes.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> "Then you stat another absurdity that a small heavy hull is as fast as a lighter well executed design."
> 
> I don't think Brent knows very much about the current state of yacht performance. He's been out of the loop for way too many years. I sincerely doubt he's ever sailed a high performance boat. He knows nothing about them. He uses used sails and mains with no battens. "Fast" is very easily defined. Just look around. I would guess that the FT10m or even the FT7.5m could literally sail circles around any of his boats on any day. Brent may want to define his terms a little more specifically, narrow the criteria down a bit or he'll just end up looking uninformed again.
> 
> I'd love to take him out on an Ft10m in a breeze. Maybe ICON light air day. Maybe STEALTH CHICKEN on a blast reach. I'd show him some boat speed.


Or you could race a steel boat around Cape Horn in a storm, to show him how much faster your fragile cockle shell is. Or maybe cross an ocean in one, fully loaded, for a years worth of cruising off the beaten path, where you have to carry all your supplies and spares, along with tools.
Most well equipped cruisers I have met offshore, average about the same passage times.

Ask any of the long term, short handed cruisers in Hawaii, in boats under 40 feet , if they did any better than 14 days from the mainland. That is the speed I am referring to, not a fair weather, flat water sail, in a striped out, empty, fragile cockle shell, around the buoys ( most of Bobs " Cruising " experience.)


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## Brent Swain

When detailing a steel boat, it is far easier and safer to grind parts AFTER they have been welded down ( grinders can be dangerous). Thus, the only parts which have to be ground before welding them down, are parts which are inaccessible to a grinder, once they have been welded down. Thus welding parts down and grinding later is the INTELLIGENT way of doing things, while advocating the opposite is the opposite of intelligence, as is criticizing doing things the safe and intelligent way .
There is nothing more pointless than polishing that which will end up buried in foam, and never seen again. That is what turns an affordable, one year project into a ten year plus, super expensive project.
As plastic boats are made of petroleum products, showing a part of a steel boat in its early stage and criticizing it for not being polished enough ,before it has been ground and finished, is like pointing to an oil slick and saying "Man, what an ugly plastic boat!" or showing a rough cut piece of wood, or a log, and saying " Man, what poor boat building, or cabinet making."
People trying to deceive, often resort to such quite infantile grasping at straws. Such people are a useless, and expensive source of advice. They are not the ones doing your work nor paying your bills.

One should never let childish "Yachtie" snobbery cut into ones cruising time and budget.


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## Brent Swain

I just had a look at page ten of the February issue of Pacific Yachting. There is a good photo of how to make a sliding hatch into a proper door.
The one in the photo could have been made longer, the same size as the original opening , or a cupola on top could have made it even larger. It could easily be made up on a work bench, and installed in a couple of hours. Aluminium would be the ultimate material for such a door.
I just saw the same photo on page 5 of the latest copy of "Ocean Navigator."


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> That is the speed I am referring to, not a fair weather, flat water sail, in a striped out, empty, fragile cockle shell, around the buoys ( most of Bobs " Cruising " experience.)


How exactly do you know what Bob's "Cruising" experience is? You've gotten most of your other assumptions about him wrong (no experience in metal boats, etc.) so I'm not sure how you can be so certain of anything anymore.

As for this:



Brent Swain said:


> One should never let childish "Yachtie" snobbery cut into ones cruising time and budget.


I totally agree. And I would just add that one should also never let childish "steel boat" snobbery cut into one's cruising time and budget by actually building one.


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## Brent Swain

I remember reading an interview with Bob in an overnight race a while back ,in which he was asked what was the longest he had ever been out. His reply was "Dunno, how long have we been out?"


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## Dean101

It would be nice if we could get an another boat builder into this discussion that builds in steel. At this point, I probably wouldn't believe Brent if he told me the sun would rise tomorrow. I haven't really considered a steel boat but since the only "facts" that have been presented by the "ONLY person with extensive experience in designing, building, and cruising in steel boats" have been (I've heard Brent preach that till I almost uke typing it) "some friend that said" or that they are indestructible (which I laugh at every time I read it) with many negative comments about how weak every other material is, how inept every other designer is, and how greedy every other builder is. Jeez! WTH!

It would be nice to hear the actual pro's and con's of a small boat built in steel. Brent, I'm sure you will have something smart to say but I'll tell you this. ABSOLUTELY NO MATERIAL KNOWN TO MAN IS PERFECT FOR EVERY SINGLE APPLICATION!!!! Say what you want but I'm right on this and you know it, even if you wont admit it.

So here is a challenge; Since you are suppose to know more about steel than any other man alive, list me 3 con's of building a small boat in steel. I'll ask Bob Perry to do the same with fiberglass. Unless I've totally misjudged him, I'm willing to bet that Bob recognizes both the strengths AND the weaknesses of whatever material he designs for. Are you?


----------



## Brent Swain

On big con is getting all the disinformation attacks from plastic boat disciples, who know nothing about steel. 
Yes it is heavier. Wish it was lighter, but the weight difference is far less than the differences in the weigh of gear any two cruisers will put aboard. 
Yes it can corrode, and needs a a bit of paint touch up from time to time. These are far outweighed by the advantages of steel for full time cruising. Occasional weekend cruisers and marina queens don't enjoy the full benefits of steel.
Seeing how those with zero hands on experience are constantly attacking the only one here who has a lot of steel boat experience, is a serious deterrent to anyone with steel boat experience posting anything here. Many have told me that is why they don't take part . It is why some great designers gave up on BD.Net, leaving only amateurs and trolls to control the debate there, rendering the site useless for steel boat information..


----------



## Dean101

Brent Swain said:


> On big con is getting all the disinformation attacks from plastic boat disciples, who know nothing about steel.
> Yes it is heavier. Wish it was lighter, but the weight difference is far less than the differences in the weigh of gear any two cruisers will put aboard.
> Yes it can corrode, and needs a a bit of paint touch up from time to time. These are far outweighed by the advantages of steel for full time cruising. Occasional weekend cruisers and marina queens don't enjoy the full benefits of steel.
> Seeing how those with zero hands on experience are constantly attacking the only one here who has a lot of steel boat experience, is a serious deterrent to anyone with steel boat experience posting anything here. Many have told me that is why they don't take part . It is why some great designers gave up on BD.Net, leaving only amateurs and trolls to control the debate there, rendering the site useless for steel boat information..


Well, that's two. Weight and corrosion. I'm not counting the disinformation because you have been just as guilty of that. As far as people attacking you.... Have you noticed that when you give those little tidbits of experience and DONT cram your experience down everyone's throat or try to put down other peoples knowledge, experience, or preferred building material, that even the likes of Bob Perry compliments you. At least to me, that is experience talking and worth listening to. But when you make claims that even someone with my limited knowledge question, and someone asks you to back that claim up, you either can't or won't, and then proceed to toot your experience, dismiss them as amateurs, and claim you're being attacked.

So, do you have a third con?

What limitations does the extra weight put on your design?

I think you gave some good info many pages back on how to control corrosion on the inside of the hull.


----------



## goat

Wow. Just, wow. I read this entire thread. I signed up to see who was going to give me the hours of my life back. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?


----------



## smackdaddy

goat said:


> Wow. Just, wow. I read this entire thread. I signed up to see who was going to give me the hours of my life back. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?


Hours of your life back? Just be glad you didn't build a steel boat.

Now go sailing.


----------



## kimbottles

bobperry said:


> Kim Went out on the SLIVER FRANCIS LEE to check the prop pitch after adjusting it up two notches. We got 9.3 knots with the first pitch setting on the four blade Max Prop. PYI suggested upping the pitch one notch. I suggested two. He was hitting top rpm way too easily. I knew we could do way better than 9.3 knots. He was doing over 10 knots when he turned around and went back to the dock. He didn't max it out but soon as he saw 10 knots + he thought that was enough. We may have another half a knot in it yet. Tonight Kim is very happy. He said there is no bow wave and no stern wave. That I will have to see for myself. I wish I were there but I have to go back to the East Coast on some boat business on Sunday so I am jammed here right now. ****ski!


I didn't say "NO" bow and stern wave, I said very small ones. KB


----------



## Brent Swain

goat said:


> Wow. Just, wow. I read this entire thread. I signed up to see who was going to give me the hours of my life back. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?


You can get a lot more hours of your life back, by ignoring those who advocate the most time consuming, complex and expensive ways of doing things, as the only way to go. You can get more back, by taking your advice mainly from those who have had the most of their lives to do what they want, any time, and have minimized the amount of time they spend on the treadmill, doing what others want of their time . You can get more back, by judging the value of advice by what it has done for the person offering it , in terms of free time. If someone has spent most of his life in debt, and has had little free time, then following his way of doing things will get you the same results. If someone has spent most of his life doing whatever he pleases answering to no one , waking up anytime he feels like it, and going sailing whenever he pleases, then following his example will get you the same results.


----------



## Brent Swain

Dean101 said:


> Well, that's two. Weight and corrosion. I'm not counting the disinformation because you have been just as guilty of that. As far as people attacking you.... Have you noticed that when you give those little tidbits of experience and DONT cram your experience down everyone's throat or try to put down other peoples knowledge, experience, or preferred building material, that even the likes of Bob Perry compliments you. At least to me, that is experience talking and worth listening to. But when you make claims that even someone with my limited knowledge question, and someone asks you to back that claim up, you either can't or won't, and then proceed to toot your experience, dismiss them as amateurs, and claim you're being attacked.
> 
> So, do you have a third con?
> 
> What limitations does the extra weight put on your design?
> 
> I cant think of any more cons. Extra weight simply means having to have a bigger rig. No, you cant do the shallow deadrise hulls, but most of my clients don't want that shape. Its no the most comfortable shape in a rough sea, anyway, and their high freeboard makes them ugly. When you are using a heavy material you don't want the dead weight of long, useless overhangs. It is the weight to waterline length ratio which you are dealing with, and maximizing the waterline in a given overall length is the goal, without producing the super ugly, snub nosed designs many modern racing boats end up with.
> 
> I think you gave some good info many pages back on how to control corrosion on the inside of the hull.


 Lots of epoxy inside, on clean shot blasted and primed steel makes inside corrosion minimal.

Man, had a great sail up Georgia strait, in a 15 knot dry SE wind, like trade wind sailing. The self steering did it all, while the wood stove kept me warm and dry ,as I listened to CBC radio and Radio Malaspina all the way. Great to get out of the Gulf Islands . Too many people down there.


----------



## Dean101

Brent Swain said:


> Lots of epoxy inside, on clean shot blasted and primed steel makes inside corrosion minimal.
> 
> Man, had a great sail up Georgia strait, in a 15 knot dry SE wind, like trade wind sailing. The self steering did it all, while the wood stove kept me warm and dry ,as I listened to CBC radio and Radio Malaspina all the way. Great to get out of the Gulf Islands . Too many people down there.


Nice dodge!


----------



## Jeff_H

This just popped up as the Featured Sailboat of the week:

31' Custom steel Brent Swain 31 

Volvo MD2 diesel, Balmar high out alternator with ARS 4 multi-stage external regulator. Electronics: Furuno 1623 Radar, Garmin 188C Plotter, Raymarine ST-1000 autopilot, West Marine VHS 600 w/DSC, Si-Tex SSB receiver, BlueSea 13 position distribution panel, Xantrex battery monitor.Lot's of tools spare parts, list too long to list. Just had boat hauled, bottom striped to bare metal, rust treatment, pre-primer, 2 coats primer, 2 coats of anti-fouling paint. New deck painted with anti skid paint.New zinks on hull,shaft, and rudder. Total spent this week $4,000.00 Feb. 10, 2014 Asking price reduced from $25,000.00 to $23,000.00 This is a great boat for a young couple looking for a 2 to 4 year adventure in Carribean. Xenos is located in a rented slip in Marina Majax on Isla Mujeres, Cancun, Mexico The marina is in the best Hurricane hole in the Western Caribbean. The slip rent is $300.00 per month, this includes water and WiFi. Cancun airport to boat is 1 hr. & 15 min.
Located in Isla Mujeres Cancun Mexico, Outside United States.
For information, call: (404) 372-6929
View Contact Information and Full Details »

Length: 31' Year: 1995 Asking: $23,000


----------



## goat

I was looking at that one. Just the equipment on it is worth that. I wonder why he stipulates a 2 to 4 year adventure?


----------



## SloopJonB

Jeff_H said:


> This just popped up as the Featured Sailboat of the week:
> 
> 31' Custom steel Brent Swain 31
> 
> Volvo MD2 diesel, Balmar high out alternator with ARS 4 multi-stage external regulator. Electronics: Furuno 1623 Radar, Garmin 188C Plotter, Raymarine ST-1000 autopilot, West Marine VHS 600 w/DSC, Si-Tex SSB receiver, BlueSea 13 position distribution panel, Xantrex battery monitor.Lot's of tools spare parts, list too long to list. Just had boat hauled, bottom striped to bare metal, rust treatment, pre-primer, 2 coats primer, 2 coats of anti-fouling paint. New deck painted with anti skid paint.New zinks on hull,shaft, and rudder. Total spent this week $4,000.00 Feb. 10, 2014 Asking price reduced from $25,000.00 to $23,000.00 This is a great boat for a young couple looking for a 2 to 4 year adventure in Carribean. Xenos is located in a rented slip in Marina Majax on Isla Mujeres, Cancun, Mexico The marina is in the best Hurricane hole in the Western Caribbean. The slip rent is $300.00 per month, this includes water and WiFi. Cancun airport to boat is 1 hr. & 15 min.
> Located in Isla Mujeres Cancun Mexico, Outside United States.
> For information, call: (404) 372-6929
> View Contact Information and Full Details »
> 
> Length: 31' Year: 1995 Asking: $23,000


Sounds like a lot of pansy yachty stuff on that boat. 

So much for 2 hours work and $50 per year in maintenance.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Hours of your life back? Just be glad you didn't build a steel boat.
> 
> Now go sailing.


I switched to steel , in my mid 20s, and it has enabled me to cruise 11 months a year since then. Had my first boat been steel ,I could have avoided a year's work replacing her, when she broke up on a Fijian coral reef.
Steve on Silas Crosby summed it up well, when he said "Hit a rock, shrugged and carried on."


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> This just popped up as the Featured Sailboat of the week:
> 
> 31' Custom steel Brent Swain 31
> 
> Volvo MD2 diesel, Balmar high out alternator with ARS 4 multi-stage external regulator. Electronics: Furuno 1623 Radar, Garmin 188C Plotter, Raymarine ST-1000 autopilot, West Marine VHS 600 w/DSC, Si-Tex SSB receiver, BlueSea 13 position distribution panel, Xantrex battery monitor.Lot's of tools spare parts, list too long to list. Just had boat hauled, bottom striped to bare metal, rust treatment, pre-primer, 2 coats primer, 2 coats of anti-fouling paint. New deck painted with anti skid paint.New zinks on hull,shaft, and rudder. Total spent this week $4,000.00 Feb. 10, 2014 Asking price reduced from $25,000.00 to $23,000.00 This is a great boat for a young couple looking for a 2 to 4 year adventure in Carribean. Xenos is located in a rented slip in Marina Majax on Isla Mujeres, Cancun, Mexico The marina is in the best Hurricane hole in the Western Caribbean. The slip rent is $300.00 per month, this includes water and WiFi. Cancun airport to boat is 1 hr. & 15 min.
> Located in Isla Mujeres Cancun Mexico, Outside United States.
> For information, call: (404) 372-6929
> View Contact Information and Full Details »
> 
> Length: 31' Year: 1995 Asking: $23,000


Super deal for George's old boat! George( the builder) built the boat after sailing with Winston thru the NW passage. She is very well built, and properly epoxied inside and out. 
I have done most of my cruising with none of that kind of gear, but I have accumulated some while cruising ,without giving up any cruising time to acquire it.
She doesn't have a wheelhouse, but that could be easily rectified.


----------



## Brent Swain

Dean101 said:


> Nice dodge!


You mean like Bob Smack and you do when you change the subject to booze and family photos?


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> You mean like Bob Smack and you do when you change the subject to booze and family photos?


Dodge #2.

You gonna answer his question?


----------



## smackdaddy

Jeff_H said:


> This just popped up as the Featured Sailboat of the week:
> 
> 31' Custom steel Brent Swain 31
> 
> Volvo MD2 diesel, Balmar high out alternator with ARS 4 multi-stage external regulator. Electronics: Furuno 1623 Radar, Garmin 188C Plotter, Raymarine ST-1000 autopilot, West Marine VHS 600 w/DSC, Si-Tex SSB receiver, BlueSea 13 position distribution panel, Xantrex battery monitor.Lot's of tools spare parts, list too long to list. Just had boat hauled, bottom striped to bare metal, rust treatment, pre-primer, 2 coats primer, 2 coats of anti-fouling paint. New deck painted with anti skid paint.New zinks on hull,shaft, and rudder. Total spent this week $4,000.00 Feb. 10, 2014 Asking price reduced from $25,000.00 to $23,000.00 This is a great boat for a young couple looking for a 2 to 4 year adventure in Carribean. Xenos is located in a rented slip in Marina Majax on Isla Mujeres, Cancun, Mexico The marina is in the best Hurricane hole in the Western Caribbean. The slip rent is $300.00 per month, this includes water and WiFi. Cancun airport to boat is 1 hr. & 15 min.
> Located in Isla Mujeres Cancun Mexico, Outside United States.
> For information, call: (404) 372-6929
> View Contact Information and Full Details »
> 
> Length: 31' Year: 1995 Asking: $23,000


It's sad to see that boat just going down and down in price. Those people are taking a real bath. But that seems pretty typical with these BS boats. They just don't hold their value at all. He'll be lucky to get $15K - WAY less than was put into it. And they spent _another_ *$4K????* According to Bren't numbers, that *20 years worth of maintenance money!!!!* How the hell did that happen?

Once again, Brent's numbers just don't add up. They never do.

All that "yachty" equipment is worth the $15K. You could just strip that out and scrap the rest of the boat and come out okay.


----------



## Brent Swain

One way to reduce weight in a steel boat is to take a serious look at how existing components do a structural job, before duplicating them. Chines and centerelines are huge longitudinal angle irons, structurally. The hull deck joint is a huge longitudinal T section structurally, as are side decks . The centreline tank top is a huge fully welded longitudinal bulkhead, structurally. All of these components are, structurally, the equivalent of fully welded longitudinal bulkheads. The cabin sides are beams on edge , with the top welded to the cabin top , and the bottom fully welded to the decks ,not likely to go anywhere. Yet one often sees totally redundant knees and other reinforcing bits and pieces welded in these areas, displaying a total lack of comprehension of the roles played by these components in the overall structure of a shell.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> It's sad to see that boat just going down and down in price. Those people are taking a real bath. But that seems pretty typical with these BS boats. They just don't hold their value at all. He'll be lucky to get $15K - WAY less than was put into it. And they spent _another_ *$4K????* According to Bren't numbers, that *20 years worth of maintenance money!!!!* How the hell did that happen?
> 
> Once again, Brent's numbers just don't add up. They never do.
> 
> All that "yachty" equipment is worth the $15K. You could just strip that out and scrap the rest of the boat and come out okay.


Or you could go do some care free cruising in her, without the constant worry of dinging something in the night ,and sinking quickly, as would be the case in a plastic boat ( which lose their entire value ,and end up being crushed to make concrete reinforcing)
Winston just sold his boat, quickly, for more than $10K more than she cost him.
I have been sailing my boat for nearly 30 years and have put nowhere near that kind of money into her. However living aboard her , and many Pacific crossings ,have saved me so much that a months wages a year at $30 an hour or less has covered all my living expenses. She owes me nothing.


----------



## Brent Swain

For someone who simply wants a big boat to live aboard and cruise BC Waters , John Sampson's 50 ft ferro ketch is for sale super cheap in Ladysmith, BC. The masts are rotten as is the wheelhouse ,but the 6 cylinder diesel runs well, so she is mobile. Accommodations are in good shape. She is big enough to take a steel mast well.


----------



## bobperry

What would you estimate the negative impact would be on righting moment with a steel mast?
Typed at 30,000ft in 1st Class coming home from NC after spending four days visiting the 63ft ketch with my Canadian buddy Tim. We get home late tonight, decompress tomorrow and sail Kim's boat for the first time on saturday.

I am not ready for ugly boats, steel or ferro.��


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> For someone who simply wants a big boat to live aboard and cruise BC Waters , John Sampson's 50 ft ferro ketch is for sale super cheap in Ladysmith, BC. The masts are rotten as is the wheelhouse ,but the 6 cylinder diesel runs well, so she is mobile. Accommodations are in good shape. She is big enough to take a steel mast well.


I visited John on Storm Strutter a couple of decades ago and it was in VERY scruffy shape then - looked like a very hard worked workboat, which I guess was what it was after those Pacific loops with paying passengers.

I shudder to think what it must be like now. That is a HUGE boat - probably 25 tons or more. Bringing it back would be a several year project and then you'd only have a ferro boat, albeit one with some history.

It should be turned into Samson Reef somewhere in the islands.


----------



## djodenda

bobperry said:


> sail Kim's boat for the first time on saturday.


Moving my buddy's 1D35 from Everett to Edmonds on Saturday. Come north and we'll take pictures!


----------



## outbound

"Solo sailor Andrew Halcrow was airlifted by a Chilean Navy helicopter from his 32ft steel yacht on March 8th after he was dismasted in breaking seas west of Cape Horn. "

From cruising compass.

Not always the hull that matters. Read reports seems dismastings, blow out portlights, inversions/knock downs, crew fatigue and injuries/illness etc. as likely or more likely scenarios for boat abandonment. This is reason I have repetitively asked Brent for statistics on RM, point of vanishing stability, GS graph etc. In absence of same his statements of sea worthiness are simple hearsay.


----------



## JonEisberg

outbound said:


> "Solo sailor Andrew Halcrow was airlifted by a Chilean Navy helicopter from his 32ft steel yacht on March 8th after he was dismasted in breaking seas west of Cape Horn. "


Damn, sounds like he should have gone with a _STEEL_ mast, huh?


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
I'll keep an eye out for you.
Looks like we got a PHRF rating of -7 with spin.


----------



## djodenda

bobperry said:


> Denda:
> I'll keep an eye out for you.
> Looks like we got a PHRF rating of -7 with spin.


Heh Heh...

You and Kim should be very proud.

I hope he races her a bit. I'm looking forward having my butt kicked by her.

We'll have the camera ready and be watching. Shouldn't be two hard to pick her out.

SAT...LIGHT WIND. A CHANCE OF RAIN IN THE AFTERNOON.

SAT NIGHT...NE WIND 10 KT...BECOMING LIGHT. WIND WAVES 1 FT OR LESS.


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
The plan now is that we will be leaving the dock at Shilshole around 10:30 am. We'll do a short, maybe 2 hour sail, just to see what is working and what is not. It's a simple rig and deck layout so I think our problems will be minimal but there is always something that can be tweaked to work better.

The bad news is that If I had stayed in NC over the weekend I could have seen David Allen Coe appearing at a local bar. I may not get that close to seeing him again. That's a shame. He's a fav of mine.


----------



## djodenda

Skipper and I just decided we're gonna chase you down. We'll bring the good camera.


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
That would be superb! It will be so nice to have a boat to sail against that we know well.

Feel free to come on over and take a look at the boat if you like.
We should be at G 33 or something close to there.

Look forward to this even more now you will be there.


----------



## SloopJonB

outbound said:


> "Solo sailor Andrew Halcrow was airlifted by a Chilean Navy helicopter from his 32ft steel yacht on March 8th after he was dismasted in breaking seas west of Cape Horn. "
> 
> From cruising compass.
> 
> Not always the hull that matters. Read reports seems dismastings, blow out portlights, inversions/knock downs, crew fatigue and injuries/illness etc. as likely or more likely scenarios for boat abandonment. This is reason I have repetitively asked Brent for statistics on RM, point of vanishing stability, GS graph etc. In absence of same his statements of sea worthiness are simple hearsay.


Was he on a Brentboat? To be fair, I have never heard of one being lost or abandoned. Well, not after being completed anyway.


----------



## djodenda

bobperry said:


> Denda:
> That would be superb! It will be so nice to have a boat to sail against that we know well.
> 
> Feel free to come on over and take a look at the boat if you like.
> We should be at G 33 or something close to there.
> 
> Look forward to this even more now you will be there.


Me too...

Sending PM


----------



## Jeff_H

That sounds like a great rating for 'gentleman's daysailor'. That is pretty comparable with a J-160 SD which rates -9 around here. I am surprised that you have a -7 rating. On the East Coast PHRF ratings are award in 3 second increments. 

I am not sure there is any relevance in this, but originally the PHRF baseline '0' rating was based on a 12 meter of the era, which was considered to be the fastest race boat of that day. Of course you can see how times have changed when a short handed 63 footer is seven seconds a mile faster than a fully crewed, 72 foot, grand prix race boat.

I will love to see the photos, and hear how she sails. 

Jeff


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> What would you estimate the negative impact would be on righting moment with a steel mast?
> Typed at 30,000ft in 1st Class coming home from NC after spending four days visiting the 63ft ketch with my Canadian buddy Tim. We get home late tonight, decompress tomorrow and sail Kim's boat for the first time on saturday.
> 
> I am not ready for ugly boats, steel or ferro.��


The 6 inch OD by 11guage wall thickness steel tube which we use, is in the same weight ball park as the fir box section mast normally used on a boat this size, and the same weigh ball park as a solid grown mast commonly used on a boat this size. Being able to weld tangs and fittings on reduces the amount of metal in them. Submerged, the mast has a buoyancy almost equal to its dry weight, adding considerably to it's contribution to righting moment. If it breaks then it's weight is not resisting righting moment .


----------



## djodenda

Jeff_H said:


> I will love to see the photos, and hear how she sails.
> 
> Jeff


I will make them available at a reasonable price.  Also comparative stern wake videos for the 1D35 vs Francis Lee. That will be interesting....

Big fat butt vs. Perry double ender

Remember, Bob and Kim.. You will owe us 42 seconds a mile!


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> This just popped up as the Featured Sailboat of the week:
> 
> 31' Custom steel Brent Swain 31
> 
> Volvo MD2 diesel, Balmar high out alternator with ARS 4 multi-stage external regulator. Electronics: Furuno 1623 Radar, Garmin 188C Plotter, Raymarine ST-1000 autopilot, West Marine VHS 600 w/DSC, Si-Tex SSB receiver, BlueSea 13 position distribution panel, Xantrex battery monitor.Lot's of tools spare parts, list too long to list. Just had boat hauled, bottom striped to bare metal, rust treatment, pre-primer, 2 coats primer, 2 coats of anti-fouling paint. New deck painted with anti skid paint.New zinks on hull,shaft, and rudder. Total spent this week $4,000.00 Feb. 10, 2014 Asking price reduced from $25,000.00 to $23,000.00 This is a great boat for a young couple looking for a 2 to 4 year adventure in Carribean. Xenos is located in a rented slip in Marina Majax on Isla Mujeres, Cancun, Mexico The marina is in the best Hurricane hole in the Western Caribbean. The slip rent is $300.00 per month, this includes water and WiFi. Cancun airport to boat is 1 hr. & 15 min.
> Located in Isla Mujeres Cancun Mexico, Outside United States.
> For information, call: (404) 372-6929
> View Contact Information and Full Details »
> 
> Length: 31' Year: 1995 Asking: $23,000


For much of my cruising, I never had a diesel , watermaker, SSB ,autopilot, etc. I have used alternators which I got for free out of scrap piles. I have never had a chart plotter, battery monitor or distribution panel, nor 3 stage alternaor regulator. I have only paid for a haul out twice in over 40 years, costing me $200 each time . 
As George worked for West Marine while building this boat, he probably got the nicked and dinged items ,which were perfectly good, but couldn't be sold for cosmetic reasons ,super cheap or free.
Suggesting all cruisers will incur the cost of these items, is like suggesting that as one Cadilac has air conditioning and satelite TV, all car owners will incur the cost of them.
Anyone so deceptive is not a good source of any advice.


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> This just popped up as the Featured Sailboat of the week:
> 
> 31' Custom steel Brent Swain 31
> 
> Volvo MD2 diesel, Balmar high out alternator with ARS 4 multi-stage external regulator. Electronics: Furuno 1623 Radar, Garmin 188C Plotter, Raymarine ST-1000 autopilot, West Marine VHS 600 w/DSC, Si-Tex SSB receiver, BlueSea 13 position distribution panel, Xantrex battery monitor.Lot's of tools spare parts, list too long to list. Just had boat hauled, bottom striped to bare metal, rust treatment, pre-primer, 2 coats primer, 2 coats of anti-fouling paint. New deck painted with anti skid paint.New zinks on hull,shaft, and rudder. Total spent this week $4,000.00 Feb. 10, 2014 Asking price reduced from $25,000.00 to $23,000.00 This is a great boat for a young couple looking for a 2 to 4 year adventure in Carribean. Xenos is located in a rented slip in Marina Majax on Isla Mujeres, Cancun, Mexico The marina is in the best Hurricane hole in the Western Caribbean. The slip rent is $300.00 per month, this includes water and WiFi. Cancun airport to boat is 1 hr. & 15 min.
> Located in Isla Mujeres Cancun Mexico, Outside United States.
> For information, call: (404) 372-6929
> View Contact Information and Full Details »
> 
> Length: 31' Year: 1995 Asking: $23,000


For much of my cruising, I never had a diesel , watermaker, SSB ,autopilot, etc. I have used alternators which I got for free out of scrap piles. I have never had a chart plotter, battery monitor or distribution panel, nor 3 stage alternaor regulator. I have only paid for a haul out twice in over 40 years, costing me $200 each time . 
As George worked for West Marine while building this boat, he probably got the nicked and dinged items ,which were perfectly good, but couldn't be sold for cosmetic reasons ,super cheap or free.
Suggesting all cruisers will incur the cost of these items, is like suggesting that as one Cadilac has air conditioning and satelite TV, all car owners will incur the cost of them.
Anyone so deceptive is not a good source of any advice.


----------



## outbound

Brent- Have any of your boats gotten a PHRF rating? Id so please share. Please note your absence of answering basic questions by several people multiple times is also apparently viewed as deceptive by many.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> "Solo sailor Andrew Halcrow was airlifted by a Chilean Navy helicopter from his 32ft steel yacht on March 8th after he was dismasted in breaking seas west of Cape Horn. "
> 
> From cruising compass.
> 
> Not always the hull that matters. Read reports seems dismastings, blow out portlights, inversions/knock downs, crew fatigue and injuries/illness etc. as likely or more likely scenarios for boat abandonment. This is reason I have repetitively asked Brent for statistics on RM, point of vanishing stability, GS graph etc. In absence of same his statements of sea worthiness are simple hearsay.


Reminds one of the 79 Fastnet, where boats with nothing wrong with them were abandoned, out of sheer panick. The boats were found later ,in good shape ,but not the crews. There is little truth in panick ,it is the abandonement of logic.

As I have pointed out many times, the stability curves of my boats are on the origamiboats site.

Did this boat lose her rig due to the all so common metal fatigue in "Yachty" stainless rigging ? Probably!
The small half inch thick plexi port on my boats dont blow out. Dainty, expensive yachty ones do. 
Crew fatigue is not the designers or builders fault. 
A good series drogue deployed in time from the stern quarter, reduces the chance of a knockdown to minimal . Was this done in this case? Probably not!
I have minimized the odds of injury while lying in my bunk during storms, by having a canvas security blanket attached at 4 corners to 3/8th inch eye bolts. Athwartships it is comfortably loose, but the edges, longitudinaly ,are tight . So, while it causes no discomfort whatever in my bunk, it eliminates the chance of being thrown out of my bunk in a knock down .
Winston pointed out another common source of crew injury ; overhead handrails, which frequently result in wrenched shoulders. Handrails at shoulder level cause no such problems .
If your hull survives ,you can deal with other problems, if your hull doesn't ,you dont have as many options. So the suggestion that you should accept a flimsy hull, and not build your hull too strong , because other bad things can happen ,is incredibly dense!
We spend a lot of thought on making the boat safe, but often too little to keeping the crew safe inside in rough weather


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Brent- Have any of your boats gotten a PHRF rating? Id so please share. Please note your absence of answering basic questions by several people multiple times is also apparently viewed as deceptive by many.


I am unaware of any of my boats getting a PHRF rating, as they are owned by cruisers not racers. It would be interesting tho.
I remember a school teacher in the 70s designing building and racing his own boat. He rigged her with galvanized rigging made his own sails and had one sheet winch. When it came to rating they looked at his galv rigging , the fact that he designed her himself with no previous experince in the field, made his own sails etc etc, rolled their eyes and laughed sarcastically, and gave him a dead low rating. He beat the others boat for boat. So, still not believing that sommeone with so little qualifications couold get it right, and admiting that their prejudices could possibly be wroing, they raied his PHRF rating slightly . Again he beat them boat for boat. That went on for a while, while the experts could never admitt that their snobby prejudices could possibly be wrong . He basically raced against their snobby prejudices! 
That could work for a brentboat as well , especially an aluminium one, given the blindness of the snobs' prejudice against them.

As I cruise full time ,often away from the internet (you know ,cruising and sailing, the pastime that so many here give endless advice on, while rarely ever doing it?) there is no way I can possibly answer or respond to every comment or question made here, being so greatly outnumbered by people who have nothing else to do. That would require me to be on line as much as they are , and give up cruising! No way! The quick response some of them have to my posts, is an indicator that they are on line full time, all the time, leaving them little time to get any experience in the subject they claim to be such experts in.


----------



## outbound

That's too bad. My boat was built for and is owned by cruisers as well. They go ocean voyaging. Agreed miles travelled in a day is what counts to this crowd not PHRF rating. Still, it does have a PHFT rating- of 90. It also has extensive system of hand holds/grab rails at shoulder ( or lower ) height. Double safety glassed lights structurally much stronger than plexiglass which due to flexibility is much more prone to blow out. We have a JSD but unfortunately this doesn't totally prevent knockdowns or other untoward events. The rig has multiple redundancies to allow wide safety margins in storms. All these features are commonplace on any current GRP boat designed for blue water and not specific to my boat. In short the rule not the exception. Once again you fail to provide factual specific information- LPS,RM, GS curve so all your statements concerning safety at sea are viewed as deceptive.
SImple one my LPS is 127 what's your's?


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> As I have pointed out many times, the stability curves of my boats are on the origamiboats site.


Out, here are the "stability curves" from his site. As you can see by the note, they were posted from some dude who was playing with the software and a "simplified 3D model".



> New stability curve is available for SINGLE keel BS36 in file section.
> 
> AVS=180 deg, Max. Dynamic Heeling Angle ~120 deg.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Origami_hulls_and_stability/
> 
> Based on 3D model. It still not perfect, but more accurate than last one (includes clarifications from Brent for foot well, cabin, pilothouse) and LEAD ballast.
> 
> Please note: this model has STEEL mast and boom.
> 
> REPLY FROM BRENT:
> Up until 1984 , we used to cut a 5 1/2 inch sheer in the bulwark plate on the 36. Then I found out that the factory edge makes a good looking sheer , sio started using the factory edge. Some boats are still done with the cut sheer , as some prefer the more traditional sheer , even if it means giving up that much more interior space.
> The stabilty curves posted are for the boat with the cut sheer, with about 5 1/2 inches less freeboard amidships. A stability curve with the new factory edge sheer will show a much higher ultimate stability angle. Raising the buoyancy of the cabin , wheelhouse( about ten thosand pounds of buoyancy) as well as the decks, will make a huge increase in ultimate stability.


Brent never has done one himself - he just shops this info around like it's real.

IMUSO, this is about as trustworthy a source as BS himself. So, no, there don't appear to be any valid stability curves for BS boats. Though you guys can judge much better than I.



Brent Swain said:


> As George worked for West Marine while building this boat, he probably got the nicked and dinged items ,which were perfectly good, but couldn't be sold for cosmetic reasons ,super cheap or free.


Got it. Thanks for the inside info, Brent. So, any buyers out there looking at this boat need to know that all the equipment listed is damaged and was gotten for free. Therefore, apparently the value of the boat is FAR less than the asking price. It actually might be a great deal for a cruiser who wants to bump into things. $3K-4K for a boat? Not bad.


----------



## outbound

Smack- Problem is g-d forbid owner actually wants to insure the boat they spent time and money on and go ocean voyaging ( which he says is target audience). With information provided I think they will have great difficulty. I don't see any CE-A or other certification. So I got to believe an owner would be faced with great difficulty getting insurance. So as pointed out by others info on web site not compatible with reality. Know for myself I would never take any boat, even a Brent Boat, out of sight of land without some factual reassurance it could handle severe weather. It's striking when I was looking at steel boat for myself these statistics where made available and generated in a professional manner that would be accepted by a third party. When I spoke with insurance brokers I was re assured there would be no major issue procuring insurance. As you know without insurance increasingly your cruising opportunities are becoming more and more limited as well as the inability to finance the boat. Even at 25k this is real money. Especially for those still working for a living and not living off the land.


----------



## JonEisberg

Brent Swain said:


> Reminds one of the 79 Fastnet, where boats with nothing wrong with them were abandoned, out of sheer panick. The boats were found later ,in good shape ,but not the crews. There is little truth in panick ,it is the abandonement of logic.
> 
> As I have pointed out many times, the stability curves of my boats are on the origamiboats site.
> 
> Did this boat lose her rig due to the all so common metal fatigue in "Yachty" stainless rigging ? Probably!
> The small half inch thick plexi port on my boats dont blow out. Dainty, expensive yachty ones do.
> Crew fatigue is not the designers or builders fault.
> A good series drogue deployed in time from the stern quarter, reduces the chance of a knockdown to minimal . Was this done in this case? Probably not!
> I have minimized the odds of injury while lying in my bunk during storms, by having a canvas security blanket attached at 4 corners to 3/8th inch eye bolts. Athwartships it is comfortably loose, but the edges, longitudinaly ,are tight . So, while it causes no discomfort whatever in my bunk, it eliminates the chance of being thrown out of my bunk in a knock down .
> Winston pointed out another common source of crew injury ; overhead handrails, which frequently result in wrenched shoulders. Handrails at shoulder level cause no such problems .
> If your hull survives ,you can deal with other problems, if your hull doesn't ,you dont have as many options. So the suggestion that you should accept a flimsy hull, and not build your hull too strong , because other bad things can happen ,is incredibly dense!
> We spend a lot of thought on making the boat safe, but often too little to keeping the crew safe inside in rough weather


After reading Mr Halcrow's account of his abandonment, it would appear that little of your speculation is accurate... The guy is from the freakin' _Shetland Islands_, I expect he's sailed in a bit of weather before:

11 March 2014 : Elsi Arrub

Interestingly, not the first time he's had to abandon this boat:

Sail-World.com : 'Second time lucky' hopes for solo circumnavigating sailor


----------



## CatMan22

Brent Swain said:


> I have used alternators which I got for free out of scrap piles.


OK, enough is enough. I have read every freaking post on this thread since inception and have laughed at the banter and groaned at the sometime childish slander of other members, but "scrap piles" really. This thread started out about pros and cons of steel boats and now has turned into the maritime version of American Pickers. I mean I have read about park benches, recycled cabinets, steel and wood scrounged from construction sites and now scrap piles, give me a break. Do the world a favor, go off on an extended cruise with no wifi or means to communicate and give verbal dissertations to the locals on how they too can circumnavigate if they just visit the local refuse center and stock pile another mans unwanted items. But short of that, leave the I can build a boat out of your unwanted crap off this thread, because personally if i wanted to sail a garbage scow I'd just put pontoons on a dumpster and call a circus company and ask them for their trashed out tents and make sails out of them.


----------



## bobperry

Holy cow CatMan, you are making me sound really civil.


----------



## JonEisberg

CatMan22 said:


> Brent Swain said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have used alternators which I got for free out of scrap piles.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, enough is enough. I have read every freaking post on this thread since inception and have laughed at the banter and groaned at the sometime childish slander of other members, but "scrap piles" really. This thread started out about pros and cons of steel boats and now has turned into the maritime version of American Pickers. I mean I have read about park benches, recycled cabinets, steel and wood scrounged from construction sites and now scrap piles, give me a break. Do the world a favor, go off on an extended cruise with no wifi or means to communicate and give verbal dissertations to the locals on how they too can circumnavigate if they just visit the local refuse center and stock pile another mans unwanted items. But short of that, leave the I can build a boat out of your unwanted crap off this thread, because personally if i wanted to sail a garbage scow I'd just put pontoons on a dumpster and call a circus company and ask them for their trashed out tents and make sails out of them.
Click to expand...

You don't seem to understand, Brent is a Dumpster Diving God... He builds furling units that are far superior to anything made by Selden or Profurl, out of stuff he finds laying by the side of the road during the course of a morning walk...


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## blt2ski

G33.....hmmmmmm..........now if I was not packing to move or some such thing.......hmmmmmmmmmm......
maybe I need to go sailing in my slooooooooooooooooooooooow 195 rated boat........hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I was at csr twice today, not sure where frances lee is at today..........

Marty


----------



## bobperry

Marty:
Time for all the BS talk to end. FL sails tomorrow. It is on G dock at Shilshole.
Tomorrow=reality.


----------



## Capt Len

Lots of room on the ocean for different talents, techniques and imaginative skills. This thread pretty well runs the gamut even if it wanders greatly. If one has the money ,one can buy most any talent etc. If the budget or inclination requires some ingenuity then some imagination in the recycle /reconfigure department can be the ticket.Some of us(me included) take real joy in building our boats and its parts from what some scorn as the local refuse centre. For you completely unskilled and unimaginative' Sailors' who don't know pot metal from bronze or lignum vita from hemlock let me tell you that better stuff was thrown away than you can find at your fancy new stuff store. The skill and imagination to do what Brent and I have done successfully and with considerable satisfaction for 38 years is something that that others may not want to emulate but to not be able to understand, well that's just sad. Just keep your shelf stocking job so you can pay the moorage on your dunky plastic and don't lose the dream of maybe really going sailing one day.


----------



## outbound

Len- a lot of us plastic sailors go to the defender sale or Less Marine. Then to tractor supply or to commercial liquidation sales and get the same stuff for 1/2 price. We've learned if it's in a chandlery is twice the price and it's worth the time to tract down a commercial supplier whenever you can. Some of us keep on to houses so we can have have a woodworking and metal shop and a big Miller welder in the basement. It's not an either or but rather a both. We're in process of downsizing. Big discussion is I'm willing to get rid of all the furniture even the pieces I built. But I'm not willing to sell any of the tools I and my father collected. Mounting board for the commissions plaque is going on a teak board salvaged from a writing box found in dumpster outside a school being torn down. We are brothers in sailing not us and them.


----------



## outbound

Still would be delighted to see more pictures ,links, or plans of steel sailboats allowing exploration of the diversity of this type of craft. Agree with Bob the thread has become too limited only centered on Brent boats. Taunton, Pape, Puffin and Waterline have been mentioned. Are there others that appeal ?


----------



## bobperry

Not sure at all why it has to be "us and them". I appreciate BS boats for what they are. But BS seems to think we should all embrace them as the universal balm for all sailing needs and furthermore, if you don't buy into that then you are stupid. He also endows his boats with powers they simply do not have. That gets a wee bit weird sometimes and given some of his claims I feel my intelligence is insulted when he expects me to buy his drivel. His grasp of the technical side of yacht design is at best tenuous and at worst dangerous. I applaud BS's ingenuity and resourcefulness but the end product does not interest me at all. But that's just me. If you like the result then I do not see that as any kind of character flaw or failure. Different boats for different folks.


----------



## bljones

this thread does bring out the absolutes.
one thing i will say for anti-establishment, stinkfoot, broke-as-a-joke, more-time-than-money sailors is that they don't go crying to mom and dad and threaten to leave when someone disagrees with them, then announce they are leaving, then announce that they have left.... and then keep posting.

They just keep posting.


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## outbound

When the world sh-ts on you. Scrap it off and plant a garden


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## Dean101

Brent Swain said:


> You mean like Bob Smack and you do when you change the subject to booze and family photos?


I would ask you to quote a single time I've done that but you can't, because I didn't. Your first dodge was nicely done. This one, well, I've seen 5 year old kids do better.


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## bobperry

Dean:
I may be a bit guilty there. But my family is a huge part of my life, like yacht design. I really can't separate those things. Brent brags about having no family and that is fine. Works for him. Takes all types. But I'm not sure he is qualified to comment on family issues. He has zero experience there. I cherish my family and that includes my dogs and my cat. It's just who I am.


----------



## bljones

And what the hell is wrong with booze? 
Booze is what gets me through threads like this.


----------



## Dean101

Bob, there is absolutely nothing wrong with family. And BL, the first thing I did yesterday after an exceptionally rough week at work was to enjoy a VERY tasty ale, even before my shower and supper. Maybe Brent's rhetoric is just rubbing me the wrong way this morning but I can't help but comment on his amazingly blatant hypocrisy accusing me of changing subjects while answering a post in which I pointed out that he himself nicely dodged a legitimate question. 

I have no problem with Brent, and apparently Len also, finding good deals or re-using stuff from scrap piles. I've done plenty of that myself. I do have a problem with someone like Brent accusing me of doing something I haven't done and NOT being man enough to include a quote as proof. Especially when he is being a hypocrite while doing it!

I'm learning more about the characteristics of steel boats from those that Brent claims have "zero experience in steel" than I am from a self-proclaimed designer, builder, and cruiser of steel boats who can't answer legitimate questions challenging the often questionable and sometimes ridiculous claims he's making.


----------



## smackdaddy

Capt Len said:


> Lots of room on the ocean for different talents, techniques and imaginative skills. This thread pretty well runs the gamut even if it wanders greatly. If one has the money ,one can buy most any talent etc. If the budget or inclination requires some ingenuity then some imagination in the recycle /reconfigure department can be the ticket.Some of us(me included) take real joy in building our boats and its parts from what some scorn as the local refuse centre. For you completely unskilled and unimaginative' Sailors' who don't know pot metal from bronze or lignum vita from hemlock let me tell you that better stuff was thrown away than you can find at your fancy new stuff store. The skill and imagination to do what Brent and I have done successfully and with considerable satisfaction for 38 years is something that that others may not want to emulate but to not be able to understand, well that's just sad. Just keep your shelf stocking job so you can pay the moorage on your dunky plastic and don't lose the dream of maybe really going sailing one day.


Well you started out pretty well there Len. But then went completely off the rails - yet again making it an "us and them" thing.

I like my job a lot. I make great money doing it and don't have to work many hours or very hard at it. It's awesome. Oh and it's not shelf stocking.

I'm also pretty handy and love finding ways to do things as cheaply as possible where I can. Most sailors do. Look at bl's do-it-yourself thread.

What I have NO desire to do is live full time on a small boat (steel or plastic). I love being able to cruise a few months out of the year in beautiful places then go back to my beautiful home and pool.

You and Brent just don't seem to like the fact that people can be happy with that kind of balance. For you guys it has to be all or nothing. That your way of life is somehow "enlightened" - that the rest of us are "completely unskilled and unimaginative". Well I don't think that's true it all. And it certainly makes you guys sound like you're bitter simply because you have no other options.

That's not enlightened. That's simply being trapped on a different kind of treadmill. One I have absolutely no desire to join you on.

Why not live and let live dude?


----------



## Sashav

After buying a steel boat I think I would never buy any fiberglass, the benefits are so many I can't even list them


----------



## outbound

Yaaaay. A steel boat owner. What is she? Did you build her? Where are you and where have you sailed? No info on your public profile.


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## bljones

smackdaddy said:


> Look at bl's do-it-yourself thread.


For the record, I have never, and will never, think of it as MY thread. All I did was get the ball rolling and throw in the odd post.

As in *every* SN thread, the members here are the REAL contributors, the ones who do all the heavy lifting, and I for one have gotten a ton of good info out of that thread.


----------



## SloopJonB

outbound said:


> Len- a lot of us plastic sailors go to the defender sale or Less Marine. Then to tractor supply or to commercial liquidation sales and get the same stuff for 1/2 price. We've learned if it's in a chandlery is twice the price and it's worth the time to tract down a commercial supplier whenever you can. Some of us keep on to houses so we can have have a woodworking and metal shop and a big Miller welder in the basement. It's not an either or but rather a both. We're in process of downsizing. Big discussion is I'm willing to get rid of all the furniture even the pieces I built. But I'm not willing to sell any of the tools I and my father collected. Mounting board for the commissions plaque is going on a teak board salvaged from a writing box found in dumpster outside a school being torn down. We are brothers in sailing not us and them.


Sounds like you need Tim Allen's "Guys home" - a 10,000 Sq. Ft. shop with a one bedroom apartment over.


----------



## SloopJonB

bljones said:


> this thread does bring out the absolutes.
> one thing i will say for anti-establishment, stinkfoot, broke-as-a-joke, more-time-than-money sailors is that they don't go crying to mom and dad and threaten to leave when someone disagrees with them, then announce they are leaving, then announce that they have left.... and then keep posting.
> 
> They just keep posting.


They don't need to go crying to mom & dad - they just go to the government for money from funds they haven't contributed to.


----------



## CatMan22

Capt Len said:


> Lots of room on the ocean for different talents, techniques and imaginative skills. This thread pretty well runs the gamut even if it wanders greatly. If one has the money ,one can buy most any talent etc. If the budget or inclination requires some ingenuity then some imagination in the recycle /reconfigure department can be the ticket.Some of us(me included) take real joy in building our boats and its parts from what some scorn as the local refuse centre. For you completely unskilled and unimaginative' Sailors' who don't know pot metal from bronze or lignum vita from hemlock let me tell you that better stuff was thrown away than you can find at your fancy new stuff store. The skill and imagination to do what Brent and I have done successfully and with considerable satisfaction for 38 years is something that that others may not want to emulate but to not be able to understand, well that's just sad. Just keep your shelf stocking job so you can pay the moorage on your dunky plastic and don't lose the dream of maybe really going sailing one day.


Len, and I hope you don't mind me calling you Len, you completely missed my point. I can McGuyver with the best of them and do so on a regular basis, but I want to hear you guys tell me things I don't know,like how do you deal with heat dissipation from a hot metal deck to the cabin of the same type material, how about vibration dampening from a perkins or yanmar or whatever type diesel you're running on a metal frame boat, how did you formulate the sail area you needed to push a boat that heavy through the water, what about tinsel pull at the deck and mast and things like this. You're right I don't circumnavigate, probably never will, but I'm still curious about things I can't and probably won't do in life and the crazy thing is you have a captured audience waiting for to either dazzle us with brilliance or baffle us with bull crap and you refuse to take the cue. Hell dude I'm an easy sell, I sit through insurance seminars and come out going damn I didn't know that. I wasn't faulting you or Brent for reusing items I just don't need to read about diving in the dumpster behind NAPA and snagging an alternator, tell me about tack welding a hull when it's 42 degrees an what you do to make it all come together, tell me how you determined the girth and height of the mast or the length of the boom, tell me how you designed the steering apparatus, that my friend is what everyone that opened this thread is yearning for.


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## shank32095

A little advise here please. I don't know diddly about steel boats but none the less I am considering a trade for this vessel in KK Malaysia. I know the price is insane but this a trade so it actually may work out. You fellows are much more informed than I so what might you be willing to pay for this boat and what advise could you share with me.

Vessel is listed at sailboat listings dot com listing # . She is a 1999 57' Steel Ketch


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## shank32095

sorry listing #41152


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## bljones

1999 New Zealand shipyard KETCH 1770 sailboat for sale in Outside United States

That's a lot of boat.


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## shank32095

1999 New Zealand shipyard KETCH 1770 sailboat for sale in Outside United States

That's a lot of boat. 

As in Lots of money, Lots of upkeep or looks like a good trade. Where might I go wrong owning this vessel?


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## bobperry

Sailed FRANCIS LEE today for the first time. It is very fast, well mannered and a dream to sail. We were lucky enough to be able to fall in with the Three Tree Point race fleet. We stayed out of people's ways but mixed it up to get a feel from Frankie's abilities. They are profuse. One benefit of a grp boat can be performance measured in boat speed and we have it. The boat points so high it makes you chuckle.

It was an extremely satisfying day with big grins all around. I'll post pics when I get them from our chase boat photographer. The sail was very well documented in pics. I am happy and relaxed tonight.

The boat does attract a crowd at the dock.

Shank:
That is a very handsome steel boat. Who is the designer? It looks to be very well done. The price seems reasonable given the overall look of quality in the design and build. This is no home builder monstrosity.


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## shank32095

Bob,
It was built by a fellow named John Robinson in NZ. I guess you could call it homemade but it seems the guy was on his game.


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## bobperry

Yeah but that is no ordinary home builder design. Somebody knew what they were doing when they drew that boat. This thread is full of the alternatives. They stink. The boat you are looking at might be a Van de Stadt design. If you want steel I'd look very hard at this one.

The listing shows the designer as Bruce Askew. I don;t know that name. Why don't you get in touch with him. Ask about the lifting keel and rudder details. Ask about stability and stiffness. Ask if there are any VPP's available.


----------



## SloopJonB

Is everyone SURE they want to go offshore? Even in a steel boat?


----------



## Faster

shank32095 said:


> That's a lot of boat.
> 
> As in Lots of money, Lots of upkeep or looks like a good trade. Where might I go wrong owning this vessel?


What are you trading up from? That's a very handsome boat that looks well executed and well cared for - not too old either. No 'Brent boat'!

But first and foremost I think you need to have thought through all the ramifications of owning such a large vessel, hence my question. Trading up from 45-50? maybe not such a reach... from 30-35? maybe different story.


----------



## blt2ski

I was at shil shoal about 1pm or so, did not see FL. I was walking mr winston with a group of 25 other cavs, or the 25 cavs were walking there humans as it were. 

I did see a white hulled boat going back to shil shoal from the west magnolia bluff.....could have been FL. but did not have binocs. 

Talked to david on phone as he got to Edmonds in the 1d, he saw you at the end, motoring as I recall. I did see the big group heading south, sloooooooooooooooowly. Hope they manage to finish. 

Marty


----------



## Capt Len

Good to see this thread back on course. My last comment was not intended to piddle in any particular sandbox. That's why I used phrases like 'One can' and 'some of us' and 'some'.Reading and comprehension are useful skills too.It was never intended to be a us/them comment. If some individual feels that I dampened their sand, well, that's what the plastic shovel is for. As for useful boat related info integrated in the many threads 'each of us' can decide for ourselves what is pertinent or crap .Sort of like dumpster diving or reading Sci Fi. As for putting out pointers on how to tighten dead eyes/lanyards or 8 siding a 50 ft spar or setting up a fided topmast , few of my fellow sail netters would have an interest.But that is my sandbox and I'm not offended if you'd rather play in yours.


----------



## bobperry

Marty:
"Cavs"? You mean Spaniels? Ooooh.

It's hard to mistake Frankie from other boats. I suspect you saw it.


----------



## blt2ski

Bob,

From 3-4 miles high on a hill.......hard to say, but I think I did. I looked at G dock, but did not see a mast as I would suspect FL to have. Probably should have walked down the gas dock.

Walk was with King Charles Cavalier spaniels. pic of mr winston below!

back to filling out resume for a job I am applying to that will hopefully pay and be a bit better than I have!

Marty


----------



## blt2ski

Just saw some pics on SA, yes I did see FL heading back under sail.

Marty


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## bobperry

Many thanks to my pal Boomer and his daughter Katie for shooting these great photos for us.

I think this photo sums up the day's work.


----------



## outbound

Like the hats. Boats ok too ( grin)


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Dean:
> I may be a bit guilty there. But my family is a huge part of my life, like yacht design. I really can't separate those things. Brent brags about having no family and that is fine. Works for him. Takes all types. But I'm not sure he is qualified to comment on family issues. He has zero experience there. I cherish my family and that includes my dogs and my cat. It's just who I am.


Family photos, and dainty toy boat photos have nothing to do with pros and cons of steel boats, which is what most come here for info on.
Why don't you start a new thread on family photos ( called Bob's family)and toy boats, so you can bow your horn there all you want ( and see if anyone is interested)
You are certainly not particularly qualified to talk about offshore steel cruising boats, ( which is why you keep changing the subject) having had so little experience in building, owning, cruising, and maintaining them ( almost zero).


----------



## Brent Swain

Capt Len said:


> Lots of room on the ocean for different talents, techniques and imaginative skills. This thread pretty well runs the gamut even if it wanders greatly. If one has the money ,one can buy most any talent etc. If the budget or inclination requires some ingenuity then some imagination in the recycle /reconfigure department can be the ticket.Some of us(me included) take real joy in building our boats and its parts from what some scorn as the local refuse centre. For you completely unskilled and unimaginative' Sailors' who don't know pot metal from bronze or lignum vita from hemlock let me tell you that better stuff was thrown away than you can find at your fancy new stuff store. The skill and imagination to do what Brent and I have done successfully and with considerable satisfaction for 38 years is something that that others may not want to emulate but to not be able to understand, well that's just sad. Just keep your shelf stocking job so you can pay the moorage on your dunky plastic and don't lose the dream of maybe really going sailing one day.


Well said Len! You nailed it!
Speaking resourcefulness, imagination and innovation ( seamanship) to the well programed consumer, is like speaking Chinese to a unilingual Greek. They even have to make up quotes, so they will have something to disagree with! They are just incapable of ever getting it. It would be far more crowded out here in paradise if they could. Thankfully they never will.


----------



## Brent Swain

Dean101 said:


> I'm learning more about the characteristics of steel boats from those that Brent claims have "zero experience in steel" than I am from a self-proclaimed designer, builder, and cruiser of steel boats who can't answer legitimate questions challenging the often questionable and sometimes ridiculous claims he's making.


You consider information from someone with zero hands on experience in steel to be useful? More experienced steel boat people would consider that laughably gullible!


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## Brent Swain

Sashav said:


> After buying a steel boat I think I would never buy any fiberglass, the benefits are so many I can't even list them


That is exactly what most steel boat owners tell me, once they have experienced the advantages of steel. Steels main critics are almost invariably those who have never cruised extensively in a steel boat.( Like the critics on this site)


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Len- a lot of us plastic sailors go to the defender sale or Less Marine. Then to tractor supply or to commercial liquidation sales and get the same stuff for 1/2 price. We've learned if it's in a chandlery is twice the price and it's worth the time to tract down a commercial supplier whenever you can. Some of us keep on to houses so we can have have a woodworking and metal shop and a big Miller welder in the basement. It's not an either or but rather a both. We're in process of downsizing. Big discussion is I'm willing to get rid of all the furniture even the pieces I built. But I'm not willing to sell any of the tools I and my father collected. Mounting board for the commissions plaque is going on a teak board salvaged from a writing box found in dumpster outside a school being torn down. We are brothers in sailing not us and them.


Take the cover off a Miller Roughneck industrial welder, common on construction sites, and what do you see? A big alternator!
I use an alternator off my engine, for the smoothest DC welder I have ever used .It also runs all my power tools. It takes a 10 inch pulley on the engine to get it going fast enough. I feed the field from the staring battery, thru a 50 watt 12 volt bulb, and a toggle switch. RPM controls the amperage. A 60 watt 120 volt house light bulb on the output stops the surge from damaging the diode for three years. Then I go for big diodes in heat sinks. I have welded up everything from wood stoves to self steering to anchor winches, in my cockpit, while at anchor. There is no more pleasant way to spend a few hours in a remote anchorage.( A man without a project is a man without a life)
Cost me under $50.
There is no need to pack anything ashore to have it welded, and no need to keep a welder ashore. I used to do that , before I discovered alternator welders..


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Well you started out pretty well there Len. But then went completely off the rails - yet again making it an "us and them" thing.
> 
> I like my job a lot. I make great money doing it and don't have to work many hours or very hard at it. It's awesome. Oh and it's not shelf stocking.
> 
> I'm also pretty handy and love finding ways to do things as cheaply as possible where I can. Most sailors do. Look at bl's do-it-yourself thread.
> 
> What I have NO desire to do is live full time on a small boat (steel or plastic). I love being able to cruise a few months out of the year in beautiful places then go back to my beautiful home and pool.
> 
> You and Brent just don't seem to like the fact that people can be happy with that kind of balance. For you guys it has to be all or nothing. That your way of life is somehow "enlightened" - that the rest of us are "completely unskilled and unimaginative". Well I don't think that's true it all. And it certainly makes you guys sound like you're bitter simply because you have no other options.
> 
> That's not enlightened. That's simply being trapped on a different kind of treadmill. One I have absolutely no desire to join you on.
> 
> Why not live and let live dude?


So what business does someone with so little sailing experience and zero steel boat or long term cruising experience, have giving such sanctimonius advice to those of far greater experience in the subject at hand, and telling us that we have it all wrong?
Seems like how to be weekend sailing landlubber would be your field of expertise. So go open a thread on that subject ,the one you know most about!


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## bobperry

Boy Brent, your anger never ends. Relax. Enjoy life. Forgive me if I don't follow your advice. Not sure what mnakes you so uptight all the time.


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## shank32095

I just got on this site because I was interested in purchasing an upper end 57' Steel Ketch down in KK Malaysia. I am beginning to think I am wasting my time as all I have read about is a bunch fools paying way too much attention and feeding this troll Brent who's only claim to fame is building extremely unsightly vessels he puts together from stuff he finds in the junk yard so he can then sell to another unsuspecting fool. He then sails off into the sunset for a year until the dust settles before returning to start collecting junk for his next victim. Just a bit of advise fellas, ignore as if he does not exist, make him invisible and he will go away, no BS, LOL. One thing I can assure you, I spent 30 years building custom homes in St. Augustine. Most of these were on the beach, many in the Coastal Construction Zone. If my company statement included that we could throw down a house in three months and save you a bunch of money using materials we found laying around and discarded, how long could I have stayed in business? Forget him already, he's a hack and nobody is going to inflict more damage on his reputation than the self-inflicted damage that he has already done. Reply if you want Mr. Swain but my opinion stands, reading your crap is a painful to the eyes as the vessel you build, I refuse to reward your bad behavior. You are deleted.


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## bobperry

Golly! Makes me kind of sad.


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## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Family photos, and wooden toy boat photos have nothing to do with pros and cons of steel boats, which is what most come here for info on.
> Why don't you start a new thread on family photos ( called Bob's family)and toy boats, so you can bow your horn there all you want ( and see if anyone is interested)
> You are certainly not particularly qualified to talk about offshore steel cruising boats, ( which is why you keep changing the subject) having had so little experience in building, owning, cruising, and maintaining them ( almost zero).


Brent, there's a term "Thread Drift" which covers your complaint.

It's one of the things that keep these places interesting - like a conversation.

It's kind of like TV - if you don't like what's on, change the channel.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Well said Len! You nailed it!
> Speaking resourcefulness, imagination and innovation ( seamanship) to the well programed consumer, is like speaking Chinese to a unilingual Greek. They even have to make up quotes, so they will have something to disagree with! They are just incapable of ever getting it. It would be far more crowded out here in paradise if they could. Thankfully they never will.


Building boats and parts from scrap and scrounging is not seamanship - being able to handle a boat at sea IS.

They are not the same thing - most people are good at one or the other but not both.


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## shank32095

Pros and Cons

Please check out this vessel and give me a quick review of what you think and especially what you might pay for it if you had the cash sitting around. Thanks in advance for the advise.

TS

Boats for sale Malaysia, boats for sale, used boat sales, Sailing Yachts For Sale 57' Steel Pilot House Ketch - Apollo Duck


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## bobperry

Life is thread drift.


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## bobperry

Shank:
I know that boat is shoal draft with a lifting keel. I look at that photo and I don't see a single white cap. I figure it's probably blowing maybe 12 TWS. I see the main down and the boat well heeled. In the end I wonder how stiff the boat is and well it can carry sail.

I like the look of the boat I'd offer $150,000 USD below ask. But I';d do some research into the stability characteristics of the boat first. There may be a reason this nice boat is on the market.


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## shank32095

Bob, Exactly my thoughts, the boat is spotless as are the systems. 1/2014 survey showing same. Please explain the stability issues and how I could determine that.

thanks in advance


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## slap

Brent Swain said:


> You consider information from someone with zero hands on experience in steel to be useful? More experienced steel boat people would consider that laughably gullible!


You consider information from someone with zero knowledge in stability or structural design to be useful? More experienced boat design people would consider that laughably gullible!


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## bobperry

Shank:
I'd start by contacting the design and letting him know you have stability and sail carrying concerns. I would ask if there is any VPP (Velocity Prediction Program) data available. These would indicate sail carrying power but would need someone familiar with the data to interpret them. I would let the designer and the broker know that you are not interested in a tender vessel. Of course they can fib and it will fall on you to determine the actual stability feel of the boat during sea trials which are seldom conclusive.


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## JonEisberg

Brent Swain said:


> Family photos, and wooden toy boat photos have nothing to do with pros and cons of steel boats, which is what most come here for info on.
> Why don't you start a new thread on family photos ( called Bob's family)and toy boats, so you can bow your horn there all you want ( and see if anyone is interested)
> You are certainly not particularly qualified to talk about offshore steel cruising boats, ( which is why you keep changing the subject) having had so little experience in building, owning, cruising, and maintaining them ( almost zero).


I reckon Alvah Simon probably knows a thing or two about owning, cruising, and maintaining a steel boat...

My April copy of CRUISING WORLD arrived today... Alvah has an article about his recent 7 months spent in a boatyard in NZ...

The title is "Rust Never Sleeps"... Ooops...



> I still find it hard to speak of the atrocities I was forced to commit to gain access to the interior of the hull, for steel boats rot from the inside out. And I can only hope that the memories of the following months of chipping, cutting, welding, grinding, and painting will fade in time...


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## bobperry

No rust on FRANKIE yet. Can't see that ever happening.


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## Dean101

slap said:


> You consider information from someone with zero knowledge in stability or structural design to be useful? More experienced boat design people would consider that laughably gullible!


Darn! You beat me to it! I was going to add a bunch more stuff but I'm sure that Brent will never see through his rose colored portlights well enough to realize just how laughable I think his statements are. I've met his type before and they tend to live in their own brand of reality. After hearing the statements he's made, yes, I will trust a person with , say it with me Brent, chant your mantra.... someone with zero experience in steel. Yes, I'll go with the thoughts of engineers and designers that understands the principles and realities of the universe everyone else lives in. Brent, next time you're at the scrap yard see if they have a used tape recorder so you can listen to some of the ridiculous stuff you've spread. If not, let me know and I'll send you a ticket for the clue bus.


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## Dean101

JonEisberg said:


> I reckon Alvah Simon probably knows a thing or two about owning, cruising, and maintaining a steel boat...
> 
> My April copy of CRUISING WORLD arrived today... Alvah has an article about his recent 7 months spent in a boatyard in NZ...
> 
> The title is "Rust Never Sleeps"... Ooops...


Uhmmm..... I think those types of things only happen to steel boats NOT designed, built, and cruised by Brent. You need to contact that fellow and inform him that there are super steel wonder boats available way cheaper than the boat he has. It was probably designed and built by someone with zero experience with designing, building, and cruising in steel boats. I mean, really! 7 months!?! He could have built a Brent boat in 30 days with good access to scrap heaps and spent the other 6 cruising!


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## Classic30

Dean101 said:


> Uhmmm..... I think those types of things only happen to steel boats NOT designed, built, and cruised by Brent. You need to contact that fellow and inform him that there are super steel wonder boats available way cheaper than the boat he has. It was probably designed and built by someone with zero experience with designing, building, and cruising in steel boats. I mean, really! 7 months!?! He could have built a Brent boat in 30 days with good access to scrap heaps and spent the other 6 cruising!


Maybe you can build a boat from Amsteel?


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> So what business does someone with so little sailing experience and zero steel boat or long term cruising experience, have giving such sanctimonius advice to those of far greater experience in the subject at hand, and telling us that we have it all wrong?


Simple. It's because you're wrong. Pretty much always.



Brent Swain said:


> They even have to make up quotes, so they will have something to disagree with!


Well, someone in this thread certainly has years worth of experience making up quotes. You can see many of them here:

BS Yachts Marketing Program

I don't think any of us hold a candle to the vast amount of experience you have in this particular department.


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## aeventyr60

JonEisberg said:


> I reckon Alvah Simon probably knows a thing or two about owning, cruising, and maintaining a steel boat...
> 
> My April copy of CRUISING WORLD arrived today... Alvah has an article about his recent 7 months spent in a boatyard in NZ...
> 
> The title is "Rust Never Sleeps"... Ooops...


"Roger Henry" was still looking good from the outside when we last saw Alva.


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## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> Building boats and parts from scrap and scrounging is not seamanship - being able to handle a boat at sea IS.
> 
> They are not the same thing - most people are good at one or the other but not both.


Building proper solid lifelines out of sch 40 scrap stainless is far better seamanship that tig welding them out of the super thin walled extruded tinfoil which yachtieness demands. Building proper, solid mooring bits out of sch 40 pipe welded in, is far better seamanship than the dainty bolted down cleats which yachtienes demands. Seamanship begins with the building and design process.


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## Brent Swain

slap said:


> You consider information from someone with zero knowledge in stability or structural design to be useful? More experienced boat design people would consider that laughably gullible!


Surviving 16 days pounding in up to 12 ft surf on a Baja lee shore, pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef, T-boning a steel barge at hull speed, colliding with a freighter in Gibraltar, decades of ocean cruising in all conditions, without a single structural failure at sea, and a single season passage thru the NW passage, all with no structural damage whatever, is far more accurate that any calculations you could ever come up with. 
Yet those who claim that such boats are not structurally strong enough , buy and cruise in boats which would have broken up in minutes in the same conditions, proving that they are definitely not the sharpest tools in the shed!
Perhaps it is time you gave NASA a call, and informed them that they can get rid of their wind tunnels and structural testing to destruction, as your computer is more accurate.
The stability curve of my boats is posted on the origami boats site. Have someone who can read English, interpret the last sentence for you.


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## Brent Swain

JonEisberg said:


> I reckon Alvah Simon probably knows a thing or two about owning, cruising, and maintaining a steel boat...
> 
> My April copy of CRUISING WORLD arrived today... Alvah has an article about his recent 7 months spent in a boatyard in NZ...
> 
> The title is "Rust Never Sleeps"... Ooops...


Did Simon have any experience with steel boats before he bought that one? I understand he began with none. Did he build it from scratch? Did the person who built her comprehend the importance of thick epoxy inside, on clean, blasted and primed steel. Lack of adequate blasting , priming and epoxy inside is the main cause of steel corrosion inside. I have never said a steel boat wont be a corrosion headache, if you make a total screwup of the inside painting. I have just said that it will not be, only if you use blasted and primed steel, with a heavy coating of epoxy inside. Sadly too many steel boats make screwup of the inside painting I( Like Foulkes, Fehhrs or Amazons). I have never had the problems which Simon describes, despite my boat being about to turn 30 years old.
The only boats of mine which have had such problems, are those who's owners ignored my advice about adequate inside painting.
How would your plastic or wooden boats have fared in the conditions which Simon experienced?

If I remember correctly ,you could see the shape of each 4x8 ft sheet on that boat, meaning she was very roughly and poorly built , which probably continued to the inside painting job.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> No rust on FRANKIE yet. Can't see that ever happening.


Is Frankie strip planked, carvel planked or cold molded? What kind of planking on what kind of frames? What kind of fastenings?


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## Brent Swain

shank32095 said:


> I just got on this site because I was interested in purchasing an upper end 57' Steel Ketch down in KK Malaysia. I am beginning to think I am wasting my time as all I have read about is a bunch fools paying way too much attention and feeding this troll Brent who's only claim to fame is building extremely unsightly vessels he puts together from stuff he finds in the junk yard so he can then sell to another unsuspecting fool. He then sails off into the sunset for a year until the dust settles before returning to start collecting junk for his next victim. Just a bit of advise fellas, ignore as if he does not exist, make him invisible and he will go away, no BS, LOL. One thing I can assure you, I spent 30 years building custom homes in St. Augustine. Most of these were on the beach, many in the Coastal Construction Zone. If my company statement included that we could throw down a house in three months and save you a bunch of money using materials we found laying around and discarded, how long could I have stayed in business? Forget him already, he's a hack and nobody is going to inflict more damage on his reputation than the self-inflicted damage that he has already done. Reply if you want Mr. Swain but my opinion stands, reading your crap is a painful to the eyes as the vessel you build, I refuse to reward your bad behavior. You are deleted.


Then why are the strongest advertisers and proponents for my boats the people who put the most miles and years on them, and my only critics those with no such experience? .Why did Winston ,veteran of a circumnavigation choose one of my 36 footers for his pacific circle cruise, then another for his NW passage trip then a third, and his daughter choose one of mine ? Why did Steve, after having sailed from BC to New Zealand and back, choose one of mine for his Cape Horn to Aleutians and back cruise?
Sorta blows your theory!

Man, finally getting some good winds! Burned barley a sniff of diesel since Ladysmith! Great sailing lately!


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Simple. It's because you're wrong. Pretty much always.


With zero experience with steel ,you couldn't possibly have the foggiest idea of what is right or wrong ( like all of my "zero steel boat experience", critics)


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> The stability curve of my boats is posted on the origami boats site. Have someone who can read English, interpret the last sentence for you.


We've already been over this. The "stability curve" is right here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1653553-post4128.html

And it's not valid...even in English.



Brent Swain said:


> Why did Winston ,veteran of a circumnavigation choose one of my 36 footers for his pacific circle cruise, then another for his NW passage trip then a third, and his daughter choose one of mine ? Why did Steve, after having sailed from BC to New Zealand and back, choose one of mine for his Cape Horn to Aleutians and back cruise?


Apparently because they like losing a lot of money when they try to sell them.


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## shank32095

It has always been my experience in life that people that are really on their game, at the top of their field of expertise, never feel compelled to constantly state how wonderful they are. Likewise insecure individuals who fail to achieve a consensus of success to which they feel entitled overcompensate by doing just that, continually expounding how they are the best and brightest. To be humble and allow ones work to speak for itself is the greatest success anyone can achieve.


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## outbound

Shank any news about the57'er?


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## shank32095

I pulled the trigger and traded for the vessel. Anxious to spend some time down in Malaysia in the coming months. I am exploring the possibility of forming a fractional partnership with two other individuals to share use of the vessel along with the lifetime membership in one of, if not the finest, 5 star resort golf course & marinas in the South China Sea. Any experience with that sort of arrangement?


----------



## slap

Brent Swain said:


> Surviving 16 days pounding in up to 12 ft surf on a Baja lee shore, pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef, T-boning a steel barge at hull speed, colliding with a freighter in Gibraltar, decades of ocean cruising in all conditions, without a single structural failure at sea, and a single season passage thru the NW passage, all with no structural damage whatever, is far more accurate that any calculations you could ever come up with.


Yet some of the above claims have been refuted over and over in this thread - as an example the so called T-boning incident. And many of the brentboats have had framing added to give them more strength - seems their owners didn't think that they were strong enough. Looks like your guesstimates weren't good enough for them.



Brent Swain said:


> Yet those who claim that such boats are not structurally strong enough , buy and cruise in boats which would have broken up in minutes in the same conditions, proving that they are definitely not the sharpest tools in the shed!


Fiberglass boats have done the NW passage, and made thousands of ocean voyages with no incident. What I cannot figure out is why do brentboat owners run their boats into reefs, etc so often? If you compare the number of brentboats to the number of collisions, groundings, etc, it seems like there is a real problem with them.



Brent Swain said:


> Perhaps it is time you gave NASA a call, and informed them that they can get rid of their wind tunnels and structural testing to destruction, as your computer is more accurate.


Which has nothing to do with your lack of knowledge of the structural properties of materials or structural design.



Brent Swain said:


> The stability curve of my boats is posted on the origami boats site. Have someone who can read English, interpret the last sentence for you.


Just because someone did a hack job at guessing the stability of a brentboat doesn't mean that you have the ability to do a real stability calculation (and understand what you are doing).

I was going through a boatyard today, when someone I was with mentioned to me that a nearby steel sailboat had been recently surveyed - the surveyor put his finger through the hull where it had rusted through.


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## shank32095

First let me say waves are not measured in feet and inches, but in increments of fear. Mr. Swain has never paddled out in 12' surf and never will. A twelve foot wave breaking on coral typically would have a 20'-24' face. His contention that one of his little boats withstood 16 days getting pounded before being successfully dragged across the reef back out to sea through these same breaking waves is not the testimony of a sane individual.


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## bobperry

Shank:
Congrats on the new boat. Sounds like life will be good.


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## bobperry

Brent:
Frank is strip planked and glued. Fasteners were used to hold the strips in place for gluing. The everything inside and out was covered in a layer of protective GRP for abrasion. Deck is grp skins over foam core. The interior is all cored panels. Keel floor structure is welded steel. In the end I think you'd have to call it "composite" construction ranging from red cedar to carbon fibre. Of course, by your rules, you have ZERO experience in this style of construction so you cannot possibly have anything of value to say about it. So don't bother wasting our time with your comments. Play by your own rules.


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## shank32095

Thanks Bob, My wife and I are going to try.

pura vida


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## bobperry

Shank:
Did you ever get any definitive stability data on the boat?

I hope you give us a report after you sail the boat.


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## shank32095

Bob, Checked out your site and your little house design and thought you might be interested in the little house I am building on one of my favorite spots in the rainforest overlooking a waterfall on a farm I own in Costa Rica. About halfway completed and quite the challenge as you can imagine.

https://www.behance.net/gallery/Special-Mention-Primeval-Symbiosis-Single-Pole-House/10913389


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## kimbottles

shank32095 said:


> It has always been my experience in life that people that are really on their game, at the top of their field of expertise, never feel compelled to constantly state how wonderful they are. Likewise insecure individuals who fail to achieve a consensus of success to which they feel entitled overcompensate by doing just that, continually expounding how they are the best and brightest. To be humble and allow ones work to speak for itself is the greatest success anyone can achieve.


Yes, my experience too, exactly.


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## SloopJonB

shank32095 said:


> Bob, Checked out your site and your little house design and thought you might be interested in the little house I am building on one of my favorite spots in the rainforest overlooking a waterfall on a farm I own in Costa Rica. About halfway completed and quite the challenge as you can imagine.
> 
> https://www.behance.net/gallery/Special-Mention-Primeval-Symbiosis-Single-Pole-House/10913389


Very cool - be sure to show us pics of your version.


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## bobperry

Shank:
That house is amazing. Too many ladders for my old knees though. Is that your design?


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## shank32095

Bob, I only dream of being that talented. That was a project for a contest on designing houses with really small footprints ie; a dream. Now that I have built it I understand why.


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## bobperry

Well, the designer got the footprint small. I'll say that for him.


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## shank32095

Sorry about stealing the tread but it seems to have been looted many times prior to this. And since I am now the proud owner of a steel vessel can we all just start posting about how wonderful they are? Please no more BS or BB info,LOL.


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## bobperry

But first, can you please tell me where the "front door" is in that house. I can't find it.

Life is thread drift.


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## shank32095

In the bottom left of the pic. Kinda like a flying saucer with a fold up latter. Mine is a bit more forgiving.


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## bobperry

OK, I didn't notice that.
My dogs would be pissed.


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## smackdaddy

shank32095 said:


> Bob, Checked out your site and your little house design and thought you might be interested in the little house I am building on one of my favorite spots in the rainforest overlooking a waterfall on a farm I own in Costa Rica. About halfway completed and quite the challenge as you can imagine.
> 
> https://www.behance.net/gallery/Special-Mention-Primeval-Symbiosis-Single-Pole-House/10913389


This is one of the coolest examples of sustainable architecture I've seen in a long time. Systemically, it's actually _very much_ like a sailboat. Brent should actually appreciate something like this from his environmentalist bent.

I was a bit skeptical of the foundation system at first - but then saw that it was inspired by wind-turbine foundations. Very cool.

How did you execute the foundation on the one you're building shank? And what have been the biggest hurdles in building it?

One of the huge red-flags to me is the vertical order of the bio-digester and rainwater tank. That's a bad day waiting to happen.


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## shank32095

We didn't even go there. Water was in abundance next to the waterfall and we went with a typical septic system with tank and drainfield. The septic systems in Costa Rica work quite well due to all the critters that break down the waste. The real challenge was due to the fact we have like 600 earthquakes per year and dealing with the reaction issues. The central column handles all the weight of reaction and the wind shear. It might be possible to cantilever in two directions but that would be quite the balancing act. Instead we used a combination of cantilevers plus threaded rods extending down from the top of the central column along all for corners. The design was nice and all but taking it to reality was pretty special. What made this deal practical was the fact is was far more labor intensive and consumed much less materials than a typical home. Labor in Costa Rica being like a tenth of what it would be in North Florida where I was a contractor. All of the lumber was teak taken from a large teak farm I own nearby. Labor in the states along with all the associated costs would have doomed this project from the jump.


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## shank32095

Here is a pic of my next project


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## bobperry

"Bio-digerster"?
I think I have one of those already.
I came with that as standard equipment.
Thanks be to God.

Shank:
But you know that you will always be known as the "people who live in the weird house".

At my beach I'm known as the "weird guywho lives in the shack".
I like that.


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## Brent Swain

shank32095 said:


> We didn't even go there. Water was in abundance next to the waterfall and we went with a typical septic system with tank and drainfield. The septic systems in Costa Rica work quite well due to all the critters that break down the waste. The real challenge was due to the fact we have like 600 earthquakes per year and dealing with the reaction issues. The central column handles all the weight of reaction and the wind shear. It might be possible to cantilever in two directions but that would be quite the balancing act. Instead we used a combination of cantilevers plus threaded rods extending down from the top of the central column along all for corners. The design was nice and all but taking it to reality was pretty special. What made this deal practical was the fact is was far more labor intensive and consumed much less materials than a typical home. Labor in Costa Rica being like a tenth of what it would be in North Florida where I was a contractor. All of the lumber was teak taken from a large teak farm I own nearby. Labor in the states along with all the associated costs would have doomed this project from the jump.


Check out the books "Builders of the Pacific Coast" and "Tiny homes" by Lloyd Kahn.
True innovative genius!


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## Brent Swain

slap said:


> Yet some of the above claims have been refuted over and over in this thread - as an example the so called T-boning incident. And many of the brentboats have had framing added to give them more strength - seems their owners didn't think that they were strong enough. Looks like your guesstimates weren't good enough for them.
> 
> Fiberglass boats have done the NW passage, and made thousands of ocean voyages with no incident. What I cannot figure out is why do brentboat owners run their boats into reefs, etc so often? If you compare the number of brentboats to the number of collisions, groundings, etc, it seems like there is a real problem with them.
> 
> Which has nothing to do with your lack of knowledge of the structural properties of materials or structural design.
> 
> Just because someone did a hack job at guessing the stability of a brentboat doesn't mean that you have the ability to do a real stability calculation (and understand what you are doing).
> 
> I was going through a boatyard today, when someone I was with mentioned to me that a nearby steel sailboat had been recently surveyed - the surveyor put his finger through the hull where it had rusted through.[/QUOTE)
> 
> Was that boat properly painted inside, or was it bare mill scale as most Foulkes and Fehr boats are? Is it the boat's fault if you launch a bare wood hull with zero paint on it, and the teredos eat it quickly? How long would it last in sea water?
> You cant name a single brentboat which had transverse frames added, beyond the structural I specify in my plans. I know of none. That story was entirely made up. You wont find one!
> Talk to Comox valley architect Cesar Caflish, who was giving directions in the T- boning incident, or Victoria artist Godfrey Stephens, the skipper.
> None of those who refute, have any solid evidence of their claims, unlike the many in Grammas pub that day who witnessed it, and told me about it..
> Brentboats hit reefs because, unlike Smacks boats, they don't spend 95% of their lives in marinas, only sailing in ideal conditions, and actually cruise; a lot! They don't live in abject fear of a bump .Its no big deal to bump a rock or two. ( Relaxed cruising). As Steve said "Shrug and carry on!"
> If you aint been aground you aint been around!
> I know of very few people who choose a plastic boat for the NW passage. Because you may be able to survive Niagra falls in a barrel, that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
> Sure, many plastic boats do ocean passages, and some don't come back, which would have, had they been steel. The Sleavin's boat is only one of many examples. Many which don't come back, were designed by people who you would claim have more knowledge than I in structural principles.
> None of mine have had any structural problems at sea. Few plastic boat designers cant make that claim. When the "Incidents' You claim never happen, actually do happen, the evidence often sinks without a trace. So who's structural knowledge stands the true test?
> Results speak louder than critics, and have far more credibility!
> The suggestion that boats which have gone decades, and the many extreme torture tests mine have endured, without structural problems, and still be structurally "wrong", is incredibly dense!
> Duuuuhhhh!!!
> The suggestion that boats which have cruised so many miles, without any stability problems of any kind, may be unstable, is also incredibly dense!
> Duuuuhhhh!!!


----------



## Brent Swain

.

The stability curve on the origamiboats site ( 175 degrees AVS)are as accurate and valid as any ,anyone else could ever come up with.

Thanks for the inside info, Brent. So, any buyers out there looking at this boat need to know that all the equipment listed is damaged and was gotten for free. Therefore, apparently the value of the boat is FAR less than the asking price. It actually might be a great deal for a cruiser who wants to bump into things. $3K-4K for a boat? Not bad.[/QUOTE]
Steve, Winston and Don all got their asking price for their brentboats, which sold quickly, far more quickly than plastic boats do these days.

Only a guy like Smack would expect to find all" NEW" gear on a "used" boat!
Duuuuhhh!!!!!!
As soon as a boat leaves the dock, all it is gear is "Used."
When you work on a project , it is best to use only the sharpest tools, especially when it comes to decision making! Basing any of your decisions on advice from a tool as dull as a butter knife, would not be a good idea.


----------



## bobperry

"The stability curve on the origamiboats site ( 175 degrees AVS)are as accurate and valid as any ,anyone else could ever come up with."

You say some really stupid things Brent. Do you really expect people to believe that? I can't figure out how you can believe it. Are you that ignorant? How many stability studies have you done? care to post some of them. I have been doing them for close to 40 years.

It's one thing to try to BS the gullible. But when the gullible includes you, the BS'er, things get really bizarre.


----------



## Brent Swain

JonEisberg said:


> After reading Mr Halcrow's account of his abandonment, it would appear that little of your speculation is accurate... The guy is from the freakin' _Shetland Islands_, I expect he's sailed in a bit of weather before:
> 
> 11 March 2014 : Elsi Arrub
> 
> Interestingly, not the first time he's had to abandon this boat:
> 
> Sail-World.com : 'Second time lucky' hopes for solo circumnavigating sailor


Good article !
Would she have survived that long adrift had she been anything but steel? Probably not!
Could they have got her aboard a freighter ,without destroying her, had she been anything but steel? Probably not! Would she have been salvageable, had she been anything but steel? Not likely!


----------



## bobperry

Yeah but, that boat appears to be a very nicely designed boat. I wouldn't go lumping all steel boats in together any more than I'd lump all grp boats in together. That is just silly.

That's a great looking steel double ender. It's no BS boat.


----------



## Brent Swain

CatMan22 said:


> OK, enough is enough. I have read every freaking post on this thread since inception and have laughed at the banter and groaned at the sometime childish slander of other members, but "scrap piles" really. This thread started out about pros and cons of steel boats and now has turned into the maritime version of American Pickers. I mean I have read about park benches, recycled cabinets, steel and wood scrounged from construction sites and now scrap piles, give me a break. Do the world a favor, go off on an extended cruise with no wifi or means to communicate and give verbal dissertations to the locals on how they too can circumnavigate if they just visit the local refuse center and stock pile another mans unwanted items. But short of that, leave the I can build a boat out of your unwanted crap off this thread, because personally if i wanted to sail a garbage scow I'd just put pontoons on a dumpster and call a circus company and ask them for their trashed out tents and make sails out of them.


In terms of function, a Balmar alternator costing hundreds of dollars, on a diesel, has absolutely no advantage over an autowreckers alternator of the same output. Spending hundreds of dollars on gear which you can get the equivalent for next to nothing, is a total suckers game. This is what keeps them on the treadmill, working, instead of free to do whatever they want, any time they please.
The difference is the cruisers I met, who worked their entire lives to get where I was in my early 20s. Do I wish I had spent my life working, to be "stylish" and slavishly following the priorities dictated to me by the ship swindlers? Not a chance!
I'll continue sailing, while the gullible go to work to pay for your expensive bad advice. 
Great sailing lately. Been a much warmer and dryer winter here than normal, Burned barely a cup of diesel in many days sailing. Rare on the BC coast .
I entertain myself in the mornings, by listening to the traffic report on how those who follow your advice are spending their time. Then I cut a fart in their honour, and go back to sleep for another hour!


----------



## Brent Swain

bljones said:


> this thread does bring out the absolutes.
> one thing i will say for anti-establishment, stinkfoot, broke-as-a-joke, more-time-than-money sailors is that they don't go crying to mom and dad and threaten to leave when someone disagrees with them, then announce they are leaving, then announce that they have left.... and then keep posting.
> 
> They just keep posting.


You mean like Smack?
I hear ya!


----------



## bobperry

"I entertain myself in the mornings, by listening to the traffic report on how those who follow your advice are spending their time. Then I cut a fart in their honour, and go back to sleep for another hour!"

What a fascinating life you lead. The only traffic I deal with is the cat and the dogs. The last thing I would listen to in the morning is the traffic report. I'll take a bit of Mendelssohn quartet please. Then I go fishing.


----------



## bobperry

Then I do this:


----------



## bobperry

Try this one:


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Well you started out pretty well there Len. But then went completely off the rails - yet again making it an "us and them" thing.
> 
> I like my job a lot. I make great money doing it and don't have to work many hours or very hard at it. It's awesome. Oh and it's not shelf stocking.
> 
> I'm also pretty handy and love finding ways to do things as cheaply as possible where I can. Most sailors do. Look at bl's do-it-yourself thread.
> 
> What I have NO desire to do is live full time on a small boat (steel or plastic). I love being able to cruise a few months out of the year in beautiful places then go back to my beautiful home and pool.
> 
> You and Brent just don't seem to like the fact that people can be happy with that kind of balance. For you guys it has to be all or nothing. That your way of life is somehow "enlightened" - that the rest of us are "completely unskilled and unimaginative". Well I don't think that's true it all. And it certainly makes you guys sound like you're bitter simply because you have no other options.
> 
> That's not enlightened. That's simply being trapped on a different kind of treadmill. One I have absolutely no desire to join you on.
> 
> Why not live and let live dude?


Meaning that all the advice Smack posts on living aboard, and long term cruising priorities, are based on zero experience with actually doing it!
He keeps giving advice on these subjects, without actually experiencing any of it. Don't get your live aboard and long term cruising advice form a house dwelling land lubber!
So if your goal is to continue working, to throw money at a marina queen, while living anywhere but on a boat, rarely leaving the dock, and you value marina queen priorities over function, then Smack is your best source of advice.
If your goal is to get off the treadmill ,and actually spend a significant part of your life enjoying the cruising life, if your goal is to cruise safely, and affordably, without it costing you a huge portion of your life, then Smack is the last source of advice you should allow to screw up your plans. He knows nothing about the subject, having no long term experience with the matter. That kind of advice you should only take from someone who has actually accomplished what you seek.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Because you may be able to survive Niagra falls in a barrel, that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
> Sure, many plastic boats do ocean passages, and some don't come back, which would have, had they been steel. The Sleavin's boat is only one of many examples.


So instead you keep telling people that you CAN survive Niagra falls in a barrel - as long as the barrel is steel. That's just stupid.

Remember the video of the plastic boat getting t-boned by a freighter that I put in this thread. It didn't sink. So you must be wrong.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> They don't need to go crying to mom & dad - they just go to the government for money from funds they haven't contributed to.


Ya, one should feel real guilty about tapping into the Mike Duffy and Rob Ford nutrition fund! They both look half starved!
Do I feel guilty?
Not really!
Would you turn it down?
Not likely!


----------



## CatMan22

Brent Swain said:


> In terms of function, a Balmar alternator costing hundreds of dollars, on a diesel, has absolutely no advantage over an autowreckers alternator of the same output. Spending hundreds of dollars on gear which you can get the equivalent for next to nothing, is a total suckers game. This is what keeps them on the treadmill, working, instead of free to do whatever they want, any time they please.
> The difference is the cruisers I met, who worked their entire lives to get where I was in my early 20s. Do I wish I had spent my life working, to be "stylish" and slavishly following the priorities dictated to me by the ship swindlers? Not a chance!
> I'll continue sailing, while the gullible go to work to pay for your expensive bad advice.
> Great sailing lately. Been a much warmer and dryer winter here than normal, Burned barely a cup of diesel in many days sailing. Rare on the BC coast .
> I entertain myself in the mornings, by listening to the traffic report on how those who follow your advice are spending their time. Then I cut a fart in their honour, and go back to sleep for another hour!


Ya know Brent, and I hope you don't mind me calling you Brent, this is so typical, once again you resort to being a world class ***** that can only sling crap and act like a 5 year, this is not a scavenger thread, it is a pros and cons of steel sailboats, insult me all you want it makes no difference to me, but for the sake of those wishing to learn about steel sailboats leave the garage sale boat building out of it.


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## bobperry

Cat:
There is a world of wonderful steel boats out there.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> .Steve, Winston and Don all got their asking price for their brentboats, which sold quickly, far more quickly than plastic boats do these days.


No they didn't. Steve's boat is still being offered for sale on his site. He seemed to have gotten an offer after it was on the market for 3 months (CF) - but nothing definitive - and not the asking price of $73K apparently.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> The difference is the cruisers I met, who worked their entire lives to get where I was in my early 20s.


You mean destitute and lonely?


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## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Try this one:


Where is that bow wake on that thing? That's pretty impressive!


----------



## Brent Swain

CatMan22 said:


> Len, and I hope you don't mind me calling you Len, you completely missed my point. I can McGuyver with the best of them and do so on a regular basis, but I want to hear you guys tell me things I don't know,like how do you deal with heat dissipation from a hot metal deck to the cabin of the same type material, how about vibration dampening from a perkins or yanmar or whatever type diesel you're running on a metal frame boat, how did you formulate the sail area you needed to push a boat that heavy through the water, what about tinsel pull at the deck and mast and things like this. You're right I don't circumnavigate, probably never will, but I'm still curious about things I can't and probably won't do in life and the crazy thing is you have a captured audience waiting for to either dazzle us with brilliance or baffle us with bull crap and you refuse to take the cue. Hell dude I'm an easy sell, I sit through insurance seminars and come out going damn I didn't know that. I wasn't faulting you or Brent for reusing items I just don't need to read about diving in the dumpster behind NAPA and snagging an alternator, tell me about tack welding a hull when it's 42 degrees an what you do to make it all come together, tell me how you determined the girth and height of the mast or the length of the boom, tell me how you designed the steering apparatus, that my friend is what everyone that opened this thread is yearning for.


An inch and a half of urethane foam stops a lot of heat from coming thru. In my last boat the aft end was not insulated the forward half was. In Tahiti, walking from the insulated half to the uninsulated half was a noticeable difference in temperature. So since then ,I have always insulated the works. 
Last trip to the tropics, crossing the equator was hot inside. Before coming back ,I painted the decks white. It was a huge difference in temperature, like adding air conditioning. Now , south of Baja, the hull gets painted white, along with the decks. That is why aluminiumn decks cant be left bare in the tropics. They will get so hot they will burn the soles off your feet. Bare aluminium hulls in the tropics will get just as hot. In the north, my dark green hull feels warm to the touch in sunlight, at minus 12 degrees celcius, with bright sunshine, keeping the lockers dry and free of mustiness they get when I leave the hull white.
I prefer to do all my building in the cooler months. I remember an Aussie wanting me to detail his hull in summer. The primer was long gone so it would have to be sandblasted any way. I told him to go to the recyclers and get some white paint, and paint it white with any kind of paint he could get free. He did that, and the hull felt cool to the touch in direct sunlight, while a sister hull next to it was so hot you could burn your hand on it. I saw some epoxy white primer made by awl grip, which could be used over gray zinc primer, to keep it cool during detailing, before final epoxy coating.

The key to minimizing vibration in a steel boat is to make the mounts as solid as you can , capable of a much larger engine than you intend to use. The more solid the mounts, the less vibration you get, and the smoother the engine will run.
Sail area is compared to that of other well performing boats of the same displacement . Its not weight alone which determines a boats performance offshore, but ratio of weight to sail area.
The outboard rudder on my boats makes self steering a simple as one can imagine, by allowing a trim tab mounted on the trailing edge of the rudder, hooked up directly to the vertical axis vane, via a simple linkage, which gives adjustable amount of negative feedback. ( Critical to prevent over steering) I also power the trimtab via a linkage from below decks for inside steering. This, I hook an autohelm up to, getting the autohelm out of the weather( they are nowhere near as waterproof as advertised)
Steel mast dimensions are based on what has worked well over many decades. Aluminium mast sections are based on what works on similar boats of the same size and displacement, with no problems over decades.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> So if your goal is to continue working, to throw money at a marina queen, while living anywhere but on a boat, rarely leaving the dock, and you value marina queen priorities over function, then Smack is your best source of advice.


Damn right!



Brent Swain said:


> If your goal is to *(be broke, bitter, and lonely)* then Smack is the last source of advice you should allow to screw up your plans. He knows nothing about the subject, having no long term experience with the matter. That kind of advice you should only take from someone who has actually accomplished what you seek.


Damn right! Heh-heh.


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## CatMan22

Brent Swain said:


> An inch and a half of urethane foam stops a lot of heat from coming thru. In my last boat the aft end was not insulated the forward half was. In Tahiti, walking from the insulated half to the uninsulated half was a noticeable difference in temperature. So since then ,I have always insulated the works.
> Last trip to the tropics, crossing the equator was hot inside. Before coming back ,I painted the decks white. It was a huge difference in temperature, like adding air conditioning. Now , south of Baja, the hull gets painted white, along with the decks. In the north, the dark green hull feels warm to the touch in sunlight, at minus 12 degrees celcius, with bright sunshine, keeping the lockers dry and free of mustiness they get when I leave the hull white.,


Brent,

Thank you for adding a pertinent response.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Simple. It's because you're wrong. Pretty much always.
> 
> Well, someone in this thread certainly has years worth of experience making up quotes. You can see many of them here:
> 
> BS Yachts Marketing Program
> 
> I don't think any of us hold a candle to the vast amount of experience you have in this particular department.


I have responded to this post months ago, but Smack brings it up every time he loses an argument, and cant think of a response., When I get the time, I can go back and repost my response, and keep track of the date, so I can repost it every time Smack decides to repost his discredited post . That way we can occupy a large portion of this debate reposting his comments and my response ,over and over again, if that is what the moderators want this discussion to become. I feel I have as much right to respond to Smacks quoting out of context etc., games as he as to keep replaying them. Anything less would leave the reader less informed, and misinformed.
Or the moderators could simply delete such repeat posting of Smack's attacks on reality, and keep the debate flowing as it should.

When I mentioned donating a portion of my pension to the women's shelter, a safe place for spousal abuse victims to escape to, Smacks response was typical of that I get from wife beaters (Some of whom, I am told, are afraid to go out at night while I am around) His chosen Alias "Smackaddy " also points to the same conclusions.( Nice guy, or coward?)
When Steve Millar had sailed his Spencer 35 back to BC from New Zealand, he had far more cruising experience than either Smack or Bob will ever have. Being a doctor, in partnership with his brother, the BC chief medical officer at the time, he could have had any steel boat he wanted. He chose a brentboat 36 for his Cape Horn and Aleutian dreams. After many year s cruising BC, he had the confidence to sail her, with his son aboard to Mexico , Hawaii and home. 
With that experience behind him, the boat gave him the confidence to sail her around Cape Horn and the Aleutians then back to BC. A boat with stability or structural problems doesn't give that kind of confidence, especially a doctor, with vast offshore cruising experience. He chose a brent boat based on far more cruising experience than armchair experts , Bob or Smack will ever have. It certainly doesn't go that far with out problems.
How far along that route would a Hunter or a Perry, or any stock plastic boat get with zero problems. Not far! 
On BD.net, a heckler- designer , did his own stability calcultions, and said my 36 has an AVS of only 165 degrees. Another guy posted the AVS at 175 degrees on the origamiboats site. Bob said he considered 121 degrees AVS as "Good numbers."
On the origamiboats site, occupied by far more steel boat experience than Bob or Smack will ever have, his abysmal ignorance of steel became quickly obvious, and he quickly got laughed off the stage. Its only here,with only one person having any extensive experience in steel that he can aintain any sense of credibility . Even then, he has to constantly steer the conversation clear of steel, and post anything but, to avoid having his ignorance of the subject become so obvious.
People I know, who have had Bob design their boats, were very disappointed with the results .
A friend who has been cruising the South Pacific in a 36 ft brentboat, since the 90's , described a Hunter as being so bad as to make a Beneteau actually look compartively good. Some one like Smack, who would chose a Hunter or a Catalina is a piss poor judge of offshore boats .
Neither Bob nor Smack have any long term cruising experience.So if you want the kind of cruising they do, leaving your boat in a marina. visiting it occasionally to throw money at it, then going home to stock cookie cutter urban living in a house, working40 hours a week to pay for it,then they are your best source of advice. If you goal is to get off the treadmill, and spend more time cruising then they are completely ignorant of that subject, having never accomplished it.

Having more money coming in with my pension than I know how to spend, I have no need to market anything. I just enjoy helping people make their cruising dreams affordable and safer. Elitists don't want people to know what are their more affordable and safer options. Neither Bob Nor Smack have contributed a single thing to help people deal with the two biggest obstacles to realizing their cruising dreams; time and money .In fact they are dedicated to obstructing their attempts with expensive disinformation.


----------



## Brent Swain

Brent Swain said:


> Been cruising, you know, that activity which boats are supposed to be about. Unlike some , I haven't spent the last couple of weeks siting in front of a computer, giving advice on something I rarely experience.
> Internet access is shrinking in these islands.


Found it . Here's one response. More to come.


----------



## Brent Swain

Brent Swain said:


> It's kinda hard for someone with zero steel boat experience and almost zero long term cruising or steel boat maintenance experience, to have much to offer in the way of "facts". It's also hard to believe any "Facts " presented by someone who makes up a random number for how many boats a builder has built , then claims its a more accurate number than the builder gives, or who takes a comment from a discussion of religion, and posts it as a comment about steel boats. One would be extremely unwise to consider ANYTHING from such a source as "Facts."


Here's another response.


----------



## bobperry

Here's a fact:

You can't do that with steel. Composite construction gives me the freedom to design what I want and what the client wants.
There is a "bow wake" you just can't see it.


----------



## Brent Swain

Brent Swain said:


> Your comments were that shape has no effect on stiffness, which is the equivalent of stating that a square propane tank is the same strength as a round one. You pressed a spline in the middle, then claimed that a longitudinal would also bulge out near the ends while welded, and thus contained inside a steel hull, the same way your spline out in the open did. Wynand definitely declared himself a racist and proud of it. He also joined the attack on framlessness ,and only later admitted he had built a framless 38 ft Dix design, posted on the origami boats site. You also supported the notion that the steel under my mast support pipes, 13 inches of 3/16th plate, would break before the 3 -5/16th windward shrouds would, and that could happen in the first 4 hours ,. something which hasn't happened in over 40 years.
> I stand by all my comments on that site.


Here's another response to the loonieness Smack so worships on that site.
This is the kind of "Engineer", Smack and Bob believe should be making structural decisions. Did Smack believe I would type this up all over again, any time he reposted his loonie old post, quoting the nutbars at BD.net?

While Frankie may be capable of crossing oceans, so was the Kon Tiki. That doesn't make it a good choice for ocean cruising. A 60 footer with huge draft, and the interior space of a 30 footer, and no lifelines, would be a piss poor choice for long term ocean cruising. Don't expect a designer like Bob ,with almost zero long term ocean cruising experience, to understand that.


----------



## shank32095

Very nice!!


----------



## Brent Swain

CatMan22 said:


> Brent,
> 
> Thank you for adding a pertinent response.


I am more than happy to answer pertinent questions, sadly so rare in this discussion. Thanks for asking a pertinent question, to enable me to respond in kind.


----------



## shank32095

Brent, I believe you have finally given a new meaning to the word insane. I am going to call it " inswain ". Inswainity results from having to reread your reposts that any sane individual would never had posted in the first place. Please go back to passing gas and listening to traffic reports on the radio.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> You mean destitute and lonely?


I have friends in most of the ports here I hang out in, few who could stand the company of anyone like you! They are simply not that desperate! Thanks for reminding me of the kind of company I am missing! You make me feel much better! Aint missing anything I wouldn't be better off without. Nor are they!
I certainly wouldn't want any woman aboard, who is so desperate as to have to settle for the company of a guy like Smack!


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Here's a fact:
> 
> You can't do that with steel. Composite construction gives me the freedom to design what I want and what the client wants.
> There is a "bow wake" you just can't see it.


Bob
Couldn't find your response. Is she strip planked, carvel or cold molded? What with? What kind of framing?


----------



## Brent Swain

shank32095 said:


> Brent, I believe you have finally given a new meaning to the word insane. I am going to call it " inswain ". Inswainity results from having to reread your reposts that any sane individual would never had posted in the first place. Please go back to passing gas and listening to traffic reports on the radio.


Sorry for speaking so high over your head. I'm used to dealing with people who can grasp such basic concepts.


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
You live in your own world of dumpster diving and meat preserved in cooking oil. I think it's great. I do not want to do it. I like nice things and I have worked hard enough to afford them. It's called being an individual. And you know what? I have loved my job. I have loved working hard at it. I have loved the results.

So while you whine on in your angry at everyone mode, consider this: Not everyone has the same set of values that you have. That's wonderful. Not everyone has the same set of values I have either. But I don't trash people who prefer a different approach. To each his own. If you don't like what I like you are not stupid. You are just different.

For some salt in the gaping wound. Don't you wish you could produce a thing of beauty like this?

Not in your wildest dreams.


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## bobperry

"Inswain"?

That is very funny.

Brent the boat is a true composite with everything in it from red cedar strip planked hull, no framing, to a grp and foam deck to carbon details, all cored interior, no plywood, to a steel keel floor system. You name it we have it. It kind of defines "composite". This is truly not a dumpster diver's boat.

Come on down Brent. I'll take you through the boat. I'll even take you sailing. But I'm pretty certain that you do not want a face to face meeting with me.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Ya, one should feel real guilty about tapping into the Mike Duffy and Rob Ford nutrition fund! They both look half starved!
> Do I feel guilty?
> Not really!
> Would you turn it down?
> Not likely!


CPP and OAS contributions go to Duffy and Ford?

Interesting.

How does that work exactly? How do they get their hands on CPP contributions? (that *I* have actually made all my adult life, so yes, I certainly won't turn it down)


----------



## smackdaddy

shank32095 said:


> Brent, I believe you have finally given a new meaning to the word insane. I am going to call it " inswain ". Inswainity results from having to reread your reposts that any sane individual would never had posted in the first place. Please go back to passing gas and listening to traffic reports on the radio.


Okay - I'm sorry - that's funny...well, only if you're not a member of the Church of Swaintology.


----------



## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> Where is that bow wake on that thing? That's pretty impressive!


I don't think I'm as impressed as you Smack - I see at LEAST a 3' line coming off the stern.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
Smack was talking about the bow wave. Frankie leave trace of a wake and has a trace of a bow wave. When we push it up over ten knots under power you see some wake aft like any other boat, just a bit less because we do not drag the transom. Keep in mind when you look at these photos the fact that all the crew, eight big men were all in the cockpit and our trim was far from ideal. I really should have distributed the crew weight better. But we were all having fun in the back of the bus and it seemed the right thing to do at the time.


I Googled myself yesterday and was checking out the various references to my work. I found one site called "Perry yacht images". It was several pages chock full of photos of boats I have designed and many of the photos were new to me. I keep photos of my boats so this was a bit of a treasure. And smack in the middle of the bunch was a Brent boat! ****ski! But it was one of the nicest of the BS boats and it was a good photo. I'm not sure if I am even able to remove pics from that site. There were a bunch of other pics of boats that weren't mine also. Not sure how that works.


----------



## shank32095

Bob, You been hacked by the Brentster.


----------



## Jeff_H

As I contemplate this thread, I have to wonder whether the original poster, a member named, CaptainQuiet, and whose member description is "quiet is as quiet does" ever got his steel boat, or for that matter, ever got his answer. CaptainQuiet posted his original query roughly 2 1/2 years ago and last posted on SailNet something like 14 months ago.

Jus say'n........



Lovely picture of a lovely boat.


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## bobperry

Jeff:
Owner motored Frankie over to the marina this morning in 15 to 20 and a Puget Sound chop. I asked him if it pounded or slammed and he said no. He thought it was "rock steady". That surprised me a bit. I anticipated some slamming with that ultra flat rocker. Maybe it's a low frontal area thang. What do you think? He hit one big tug wake and one freighter wake and nothing. He is very happy. Our typical on the nose, "square" chop can be brutal on some boats. It can stop you dead. The old Valiant 40 with all that flair wasn't too happy in that chop and Frankie is about as opposite a shape to the V-40 as I can think of.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> Jon:
> Smack was talking about the bow wave. Frankie leave trace of a wake and has a trace of a bow wave. When we push it up over ten knots under power you see some wake aft like any other boat, just a bit less because we do not drag the transom. Keep in mind when you look at these photos the fact that all the crew, eight big men were all in the cockpit and our trim was far from ideal. I really should have distributed the crew weight better. But we were all having fun in the back of the bus and it seemed the right thing to do at the time.
> 
> 
> I Googled myself yesterday and was checking out the various references to my work. I found one site called "Perry yacht images". It was several pages chock full of photos of boats I have designed and many of the photos were new to me. I keep photos of my boats so this was a bit of a treasure. And smack in the middle of the bunch was a Brent boat! ****ski! But it was one of the nicest of the BS boats and it was a good photo. I'm not sure if I am even able to remove pics from that site. There were a bunch of other pics of boats that weren't mine also. Not sure how that works.


Bob - I was joking - that boat hardly parts the water as it passes. I've seen rowboats that leave more wake.


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## blt2ski

Now for just the hellishness of it.......Could a good skilled welder or equal build frankie to look as close as one can, in steel? I'm betting a GOOD welder probably could.......no BS talking here folks. Aluminum would probably be easier I would think....... Then again, I have never worked with these materials. SHould ask Ying and Yang......twin sons with welding degree's I suppose........


Just to get us back on track.....

did Bob ever get that aruminum beach boat built he designed for himself?

marty


----------



## bobperry

Marty:
I don't think you could hit the weight targets in steel. I think a skilled steeel builder could do the shape but it would get heavy. Aluminum? Maybe.


----------



## paulk

I seem to remember Yves Tanton stating something like you need to have about 60' to make steel work for the weight/performance ratio. With all the ice melting and the coral dying, plus being able to tell exactly where you are all the time so as to avoid rocks, does steel simply become a relatively inexpensive raw material with high maintenance costs? Starts to sound a bit like wood.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> "Inswain"?
> 
> That is very funny.
> 
> Brent the boat is a true composite with everything in it from red cedar strip planked hull, no framing, to a grp and foam deck to carbon details, all cored interior, no plywood, to a steel keel floor system. You name it we have it. It kind of defines "composite". This is truly not a dumpster diver's boat.
> 
> Come on down Brent. I'll take you through the boat. I'll even take you sailing. But I'm pretty certain that you do not want a face to face meeting with me.


A strip planked hull is held together by friction,
It's a bit of stretch to suggest that a steel hull held together with welds of 60,000 to 70,000psi tensile strength may not be strong enough ,due to lack of structural engineering, so one should instead choose a hull held together by "Friction."
Anyone implying such , clearly has a problem comprehending structural engineering, and a credibility problem on the subject.
I have copied your threats made on line Bob, so my ass is covered legally when we meet. You can find me on West Cortes Island in the summer swimming months. Bring along one of your plastic boats and we can have a demolition derby.don't go to the US anymore, the legal industry there is just too loony.


----------



## bobperry

Brent: You appear to have a reading comprehension problem. You asked me how Frankie was built ( it's been documented here several times) and I explained quickly the method. That's all. I did not make any claims. I don't have to. The boat speaks volumes for itself. It has nothing to do with whether steel is a good or bad building material. We never considered steel.

I am certainly not threatening you Brent. I can't find any threats. I'm just saying that I can't imagine you would want a face to face meeting with me. Maybe you can. I do not do "demolition derbies" in my boats. My boats are far too beautiful and their owners far too intelligent for that level of stupidity. You say the most ridiculous things sometimes Brent. I'm not sure I have ever seen someone celebrate his own ignorance to the level you do., You parade it. You live in a world where you are constantly on the defense. But that makes sense given your output. You have no offence.


----------



## Rhys05

Brent seems like some sort of caricature, of what though, I'm not sure. Maybe he is a bizarro universe Bob Perry [remember that Star Trek episode?], might explain why he has such an axe to grind and propensity to attempt to start arguments with you Bob.

Frankie is beautiful, by the way. Doesn't look like a 60' boat, I think it could be that when she is angled away from the camera she simply appears to shrink in length without becoming mis- proportioned at all.


----------



## bobperry

Rhys:
I remember the bizarro universe but I thought it was a Seinfeld episode.

I like to argue with Brent and I think he likes to argue with me. It's fun entertainment for me. I think he is a total hack of a yacht designer and a jerk. He does not qualify as a yacht designer by my standards. He thinks I'm a jerk and I may well be. But I'm a good yacht designer who also happens to be a jerk. I'm comfortable with imperfection.

I can post example after example of great boats I have designed and wonderful examples of my design craft. Brent just has angry words.

I did this CT54 ketch when I was 27 years old. They built 100 of them.


----------



## bobperry

Rhys:
Frankie does not feel like a big boat when you are sailing it either. It is light on the helm nimble and quick to respond. I'd say it feels like any normal 30'er. It's very long but it's light and skinny. It will be very easy to single hand.


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## SloopJonB

Rhys05 said:


> Brent seems like some sort of caricature, of what though, I'm not sure. Maybe he is a bizarro universe Bob Perry [remember that Star Trek episode?], might explain why he has such an axe to grind and propensity to attempt to start arguments with you Bob.


He's simply a garden variety fanatic.

The OED (THE arbiter of the English language ) defines it thusly;

*Fanatic: A person filled with excessive and often misguided enthusiasm for something.*


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## bobperry

Here's a CT54 chewing her way up to weather. These are heavy boats. You could build one in steel. But with BS build techniques the result would be a very ugly boat. In grp I can control the contours and get just the look I want. I chartered one for two weeks in the BVI's when my two boys were 9 and 11 years old. When we walked don the dock and saw the CT54 for the first time one of my boys said, "It looks just like a pirate ship Dad!" That made me feel good.

I didn't have a pot to piss in when I designed that boat. I got $1,050 for the entire design although the contracted design fee was $700. I got a royalty of $350 per boat.

I can do this all night. I'm just waiting for Brent to post one example of professional design work. It's going to be a very long wait.


----------



## outbound

Bob - what's it like to dock Frankie ? She's still a very long boat and I didn't recall a thruster on prior pictures shown. Think most folks can single big stuff away from shore. Problem comes near the hard edges.


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## Hudsonian

Rhys05 and BP are both kinda right. A Seinfeld bizarro episode referred directly to the Bizarro Superman in the DC comic of 1958. The Star Trek bizarro episode featured the first appearance of Spock in a goatee -- a likely inspiration for BP's facial adornment of the era.


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## bobperry

Out:
Kim would be a better one to answer that question. He seems to have no trouble at all. The rudder is big and a nice spade so the boat turns sharply. He also has the four blade Maxprop and he says that's like having brakes. He really likes the prop. I think also the boat is so narrow that you get a really good look at the dock as you come in. I can't see a bow thruster ever being installed on Frankie. It would muck up that nice clean bottom.

Hudson:
I don't recall the Star Trek episode. The inspiration for my facial hair was the double chin that mysteriously appeared.


----------



## shank32095

Actually BS reminds me of the R. Crump ZAP comics character from the sixties named "Whiteman". Whitemans' mantra besides being bitter about anyone different than him was 
" I must maintain this rigid position or all is lost ".


----------



## christian.hess

Bob do you take old apprentices? 

before going into the cooking industry I really wanted to become a naval architect...my granfather was an aeronautical engineer and worked for boeing and I loved learning from him and just hearing his stories...he also modified and designed a lot of stuff for his motorsailer down in ft.lauderdale...

I think this would be the perfect retirement trade for me...but Im a ways off for retirement

jajaja

ps. I think designers shooting the crap and bickering on forums is hilarious...good entertainment for sure...

of course in the end words are trumped by actions...sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


----------



## SloopJonB

As they say at the Oscars - "For your consideration".


----------



## bobperry

Christian:
I agree it's good fun as long as families and loved ones are left out of the personal attacks. I credit BS for coming on and duking it out. It would be better if Brent had a better handle on the elements of naval architecture. It would add range to our debates.

We can discuss your internship when the time comes. Maybe you can help my efforts at cooking. Lamb shanks tonight. Any tips?

A few years back I emailed Graham Kerr, the TV chef. I told him my hobby was cooking and my business was sailing while his hobby was sailing and his business cooking. I suggested we talk. He called me. He came to my house for dinner and we went out to dinner a couple times. You get good service when you show up in a joint with Graham. I went cruising with him on his Nonsuch. We ate well. He was a bit of a timid sailer. But I took care of that.


Jon:
You gotta love that guy's attitude. I hope it all turns out well for him. For me I think its too bad he is putting sop much life energy into what is a pretty awful "design". In the ends it will be a boat that only a mother could love. But I hope I am wrong.


----------



## christian.hess

ok lamb shanks:

to get a good rich sear, flour them...salt and pepper...get a good sear in a brasing pan...very dark...almost burnt...but dont go crazy

remove...then add you favourite red or white wine...I like them braised in white wine as you can taste the lamb better this way...sauce comes later...

deglaze, add whole heads of garlic chopped in half, aromatics like thyme, rosemary, bay leafs, the mirepoix rough cut a la grandma style...

have a beer or 2 while this gets going...

for stock use a well made beef stock or veal stock or if you have extra shanks simply boil them up in a pressure cooker again with aromatics and the like for 45 minutes or so...

important here is that those boxes of stock they sell at the market dont reduce well, even the less sodium ones...basically they just evaporate leaving no proteins or colagen...this is what thickens stocks naturally for sauces so no box or consomme from the store!

veal stock is great cause its light, so you can taste the lamb better

add stock...halfway up the roasting pan...re introduce shanks...dont cover them though...2/3rds the way up...

cover with aluminum foil and set in the oven...slow braise...about an hour or so then turn shanks...go another couple of hours...

*let sit overnight*

next day give it a nice stew on the stove top again(flavors meld overnight) till soft...

take out shanks...strain juice and sauces left, rectify salt and pepper if needed and simmer away with a bottle of red wine...

you can also reduce and simmer away the red wine first but youll need more of it like a tanker...simmer away with shallots and a little peppercorns...till its halfway reduced then add to the braising juice in a new deep pot...
this wil get you a very very nice sauce...

keep shanks warm and then on a platter pour sauce that has been reduced till it coats a spoon all over the shanks...so they are sticky you can mount this sauce with a quick mix of butter and flour balls but when done well this isnt needed.

serve this with your favourite creamy, cheesy buttery, polenta recipe...and bobs your uncle

no pun intended jajajaja

enjoy


----------



## christian.hess

SloopJonB said:


> As they say at the Oscars - "For your consideration".


im utterly confused

WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT??????????????????????


----------



## bobperry

Christian:
Now I'm excited. I'm pretty good at lamb shanks but I find that I am growing bored with many of my stock recipes.

I don't have veal stock but I have beef stock. I'll definately try the shank stew idea. I love stew. I've been doing a Jamie Oliver stew lately where you do not brown the meat.

I would not have thought of white wine but I'll do it. I'm looking for something other than "shanks in a Bob sauce".

How about a dash of vinegar with th shanks? I started adding a splash of vinegar to just about everything I cook lately. It works for marinara sauce and stews. I also often add some black molasses. Am I nuts?

Many thanks for the recipe and help. My wife is hot for your internship. She has to eat my cooking. I do 95% of the cooking here. I enjoy it.


----------



## christian.hess

I regularly do braised short ribs...and there a couple of good quick recipes in pressure cookers that I use at the restaurant

one is a half and half mix if white wine and balsamic vinegar and LOTS of onions(the sweet onions counter the acidity) tomatoes and aromatics...they become quite sticky, almost like asian braised short ribs...but not quite.

remember white wine is more acidic than red in most cases so that is why braising in white wine has a cleaner simpler flavor

the brits and some french love to not BRAISE some cuts...what you get is a cleaner and clearer flavor...milder if you will since its the caramelization of the meat that browns the stocks and sauces...

about stocks when small batches and home cooking nothing beats a pressure cooker...

45 minutes to an hour using bones at the market and you get a wonderfull thick stock with lots of bone marrow and protein...this is what gives flavor and round buttery feel in the mouth that you cant get with store stuff.

another braised short ribs recipe I do is the classic red wine one, very french...carrots and onions bay leafs, thyme, peppercorns etc...

this recipe works for any tough or cheap cut meats with bones...even hen!

a touch of vinegar is great, very italian...use balsamic next time and serve with polenta...


yum


----------



## christian.hess

do you like lentils? again very french

lamb shanks and de puy lentils are the bomb...you must finsih the lentils though with a splash of sherry wine vinegar...its a must in french cuisine

remember acidity and salt brings out flavours and enhances them
that is why the chinese made famous MSG...

jajajajajaja

back to boats

ps. there are a couple of provisioning and cooking threads were some of us have shared recipes...

the latest one is the paella recipe thread...some good stuff there and pics! yeah pics!

jajaja


----------



## bobperry

I'm very good at braised short ribs. I do use red wine though. It's one of my specialties, braised short ribs in a Bob sauce.

In Taiwan they would serve "squid balls" (I never really figured out what they were), chia rol is I think the Mandarin name for the dish although I new a Taiwanese woman who's name was Chia Rol and I doubt her name was "squid balls". Probably different tones.

They would serve the squid balls, about golf ball size with a little saucer of MSG. You would roll your squid ball in the MSG and pop it in your mouth. It was delicious but you had to have the MSG.

I love lentils but don't I have to soak them overnight? I'll do polenta.


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## christian.hess

some you do...but its not madatory...the little green gray ones are fine 45 minutes or so....

squid balls! yum

msg yum jajajaja


----------



## bobperry

So, how do I do the lentils?
I'm off to the grocery store and I'll buy Sherry vinegar. I have balsamic but I have been using red wine vinegar for most of my splashes. I'll switch to balsamic.


----------



## christian.hess

bobperry said:


> So, how do I do the lentils?
> I'm off to the grocery store and I'll buy Sherry vinegar. I have balsamic but I have been using red wine vinegar for most of my splashes. I'll switch to balsamic.


ok green lentils(use sherry vinegar for a splash before serving)

1 bag of lentils...rinse and pick out the bad ones

if you have chicken stock use it.

fine dice
celery
carrots
red onion

get 4 bay leaves, thyme, pepercorns
head of garlic

olive oil

get the olive oil hot...sliver in some garlic cloves, saute the veggies a bit...add bayleafs...

add lentils

add stock
add a cup of red wine and aromatics

dont salt till the end

lentils work great with pancetta or bacon, or in spain chorizo

you can saute the meats in with the veggies before adding the lentils...you can use ham hocks too or a little peace of smoked pork ribs etc...just anything to favour the broth a bit

boil away for 30-45 minutes or so and check tenderness...and stock level,...add water if needed

let them rest when a bit tender, they will continue to soak up broth...only salt when luke warm if you salt before they will soak up too much

when serving splash some EVOO on them, a splash of sherry vinegar and if you have it SMOKED PAPRIKA or pimenton...and some cracked course black pepper!

you can also eat this as is with some white rice with garlic oil

yum
very spanish


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> You get good service when you show up in a joint with Graham. I went cruising with him on his Nonsuch. We ate well. He was a bit of a timid sailer. But I took care of that.


Was that before or after he owned the Ocean 71? I can't imagine sailing one of those monsters and being timid about it.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
It was after he owned the Ocean 71. I hear you and I wondered too. But I have the advantage of actually having sailed with the man. I got the impression he had never pushed his boat the way I pushed it and at first he was a bit uneasy about it. I could be wrong.

Christian:
I'll do the lentils tomorrow night. Thanks.
I found sherry vinegar at my store.
I have smoked paprika. Now I have something to do with it.
What is Evoo?


----------



## smackdaddy

I love this thread.


----------



## jppp

We sear the shanks in duck fat. Pumps the umami factor. 
The Lentils de Puy are the small french ones. They hold their shape when cooked. We serve them with house cured and smoked Berkshire bacon with Rohan Duck Breast. 
If you love Polenta, order some from Wild Hive in Clinton Corners NY. It's milled to order(just about) from Hudson Valley Organic corn. We order 50#'s at a pop so it's milled fresh for us. Slightly courser than the imported mothball stuff. Folks who don't like polenta, will after this stuff. It doesn't need tones of cheese and cream to be yummy. 
For a twist on shanks go Indian. Lamb takes to those flavors. Fresh garlic, fresh ginger, cilantro, tomato, garam masala, some heat... braise.....


----------



## jppp

Extra Virgin Olive Oil


----------



## bobperry

Uh,,,,you guys are a bit beyond my meager cooking abilities. I'm still not sure which side of the bratwurst goes down first.

But I'm ready for tonight. I'm giving the granite counter tops the BIG RESEAL today. Or at least that's what is says on the spray bottle. I'm dubious. But I'm doing it anyway. I want pristine counters when I attack the lamb shanks. These shanks are so big I think they came off Merino rams. My old Australian mum would have laughed at them, "Americans don't know what lamb is!"

jppp:
I frequently do lamb curry. I ate a lot of lamb curry growing up. I had it for breakfast yesterday. Honestly.


----------



## jppp

If you like vinegar in cooking, Filipino Pork or chicken Adobo. Insane. I knew who my wife would be after she fed me Pork Adobo on second date. Also a Loire Valley dish called Chicken Fricandeau uses red wine vinegar where wine would be. It has tarragon, chervil, thyme, parsley. Whole unpeeled cloves of garlic, tomato and a touch of cream at the end. Best with Legs & Thighs.


----------



## jppp

Two kinds of shanks out there. Lower Hind and foreshanks. Foreshanks much wider on the cut side and make a better presentation as they can be stood up with bone in the air. Ok, i'm gunna stop.


----------



## smackdaddy

Ah - but what can you knuckleheads do with a slab of elk meat that's been soaking in cooking oil for 4 years? Make that taste good and we'll talk.


----------



## bobperry

I know a guy in Canada who will eat anything.


----------



## SloopJonB

I dunno Bob - it's never been confirmed that he'll eat Vegemite.


----------



## jak3b

"Ah - but what can you knuckleheads do with a slab of elk meat that's been soaking in cooking oil for 4 years? Make that taste good and we'll talk. "

If it 10 weight motor oil the Elk will go right on the fire.If it heavier oil,old crank case oil from semi's you need to spray it down with kerosene or mineral spirits first, then start a blazing gas fire in a 50 gallon oil drum, then shoot your guns off till its done( when the fire goes out).After engorging your self on it you'll be ready for a good ole' fasion demolition derby!


----------



## bobperry

Another hour to go on the lamb shanks. They are smelling really good.


----------



## Capt Len

Don't you know that a big dash of prik nam pla ( hot thai fish sauce) makes just about anything taste good . Even seal flipper. Never tried it on Lamb shank tho.


----------



## bobperry

Len:
I have that sauce. But I think I'll save it for flipper pie. Tonight we will go with Patsy's home made red pepper jelly. Patsy has been giving it to me for years. I trade her Chinese tea.


----------



## christian.hess

dont know elk...hmmmmmmmm always a will to learn though

jajaja


----------



## christian.hess

so lamb shanks good bad, ok?


----------



## outbound

Shank - do you remember Fatima and the Quivering Thigh ? Another R. Crumb creation. That's the boat Brent should crew on.
Bob I know you have no interest in designing in steel but you showed a heavy displacement full keeler of your design. Interested in your considered opinion about
At what size does steel start to come into its own and doesn't pay unacceptable performance price? 
What general hull shapes would work? Slack bilged? Full keel? Low aspect fin? 
What constraints does a by nature does a heavy boat place on the designer?
I very much respect your opinion. Therefore would respect your opinion of which of your peers design well in steel? I've thought Tanton, A. Pape and c. Witzholtz understood this material and drew some timeless designs.


----------



## bobperry

Christian:
The lamb shanks were marvelous.
I did polenta. Never did polenta before. I sauteed it in butter.
I took some of the sauce off the shanks and thickened it a bit with some flour and water.
I don't think I have ever had better lamb shanks, silky and tender.
Good news is I have enough for tomorrow's lamb stew.
Thanks you so much for walking me through that.
I was a hero tonight.

Tomorrow I tackle the lentils.
Bob vs beans


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Shank - do you remember Fatima and the Quivering Thigh ? Another R. Crumb creation. That's the boat Brent should crew on.
> Bob I know you have no interest in designing in steel but you showed a heavy displacement full keeler of your design. Interested in your considered opinion about
> At what size does steel start to come into its own and doesn't pay unacceptable performance price?
> What general hull shapes would work? Slack bilged? Full keel? Low aspect fin?
> What constraints does a by nature does a heavy boat place on the designer?
> I very much respect your opinion. Therefore would respect your opinion of which of your peers design well in steel? I've thought Tanton, A. Pape and c. Witzholtz understood this material and drew some timeless designs.


I think Witholtz ,Tanton and Pape understood the material ,and had some hands on experience working with it. They would be a better source of info than someone who has no understanding of the material. I was hoping Tanton would participate more in this discussion. I guess the adolescent jeering scared him away. Dont blame him!
In smaller boats, the owners pack rat tendencies have a much bigger effect on total weight than hull material.
People with my 26 footer are happy with her performance .
Deeper deadrise lets you lower the floor in a small boat, lowering the freeboard, and thus lowering the centre of gravity. A Laurent Giles designed Vertue would possibly work well in steel ,given its displacement. A single chine version wouldn't differ much from the original shape.
One main drawback of a full keel in steel is the part of the keel under the engine is inaccessible for maintenance, and to far aft to take the weight of its being used as tankage. Its also much more difficult and time consuming to build the keel on. A low aspect fin keel with separate skeg ( used as an engine cooler) is easier to build and maintain, and thus more practical, altho most of my clients are going for twin keels these days( sure glad I did)


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Rhys:
> I remember the bizarro universe but I thought it was a Seinfeld episode.
> 
> I like to argue with Brent and I think he likes to argue with me. It's fun entertainment for me. I think he is a total hack of a yacht designer and a jerk. He does not qualify as a yacht designer by my standards. He thinks I'm a jerk and I may well be. But I'm a good yacht designer who also happens to be a jerk. I'm comfortable with imperfection.
> 
> I can post example after example of great boats I have designed and wonderful examples of my design craft. Brent just has angry words.
> 
> I did this CT54 ketch when I was 27 years old. They built 100 of them.


Did you design the CT41?


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> He's simply a garden variety fanatic.
> 
> The OED (THE arbiter of the English language ) defines it thusly;
> 
> *Fanatic: A person filled with excessive and often misguided enthusiasm for something.*


Lets see. People doing it the "Normal " way, spend decades trying to get off the treadmill, and free to cruise, spending tens of thousands to get there, something I have accomplished in my early 20's , on very little money.
And you say I'm the one who's "misguided?"
While other liveaboards are constantly complaining about dampness, and mold, I have eliminated all such problems decades ago, and my clients keep saying their brentboat is the most comfortable home they have ever had , in winter , in BC, and you say I am the one who is "Misguided?"
Sure glad the number of "misguided" is still small. It would be crowded out here, otherwise.


----------



## bobperry

I believe the question was addressed to me Brent. Reading comprehenion problems again?
Or just that never ending quest for attention?

I think there are lots of nice steel designs around done by skilled designers with a good eye for lines. I would look at the entire body of a designer's work, not just his steel designs. Look for a designer who draws good boats that have handsome lines and a good performance track record. They are all just boats. I like Pape's work. Of course Whitholtz is an old favorite of mine (sat next to him at dinner one night), Yves -Marie is an old chum and I always admire his work. He knows what makes a boat go and he is a very good sailor. I don't believe he has ever built a steel boat though. But that doesn't bother me.
I was never a Colvin fan but I enjoyed looking ast his design work. It just didn't suit my taste. Find a designer with an overall good track record over a wide range of boats.

I think I'd draw the line around 35' for steel. You can always do a heavy boat that is shorter LOA but as some point the weight of the material is totally driving the design. I prefert to keep my D/L's under 300 when I can. If we are talking about boats with upper D/L's, above 260, I'd probably favor moderate deadrise and a low aspect ratio fin keel. My concern would be sufficient displ in the boat vs material weight so that I could get a good B/D and good stability.

I'll bet there are a lot of great German and Dutch designs available in steel.
I'd avoid the stock plan hacks who can't produce any examples of their design work.
Of the guys you mention I think Whitholtz would be my favorite. He never drew an ugly boat.


----------



## bobperry

No Brent. Even a cursory search of the internet would tell you that I did not design the CT41.

Ct 65, 56, 54 and 48 are mine.


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> As I contemplate this thread, I have to wonder whether the original poster, a member named, CaptainQuiet, and whose member description is "quiet is as quiet does" ever got his steel boat, or for that matter, ever got his answer. CaptainQuiet posted his original query roughly 2 1/2 years ago and last posted on SailNet something like 14 months ago.
> 
> Jus say'n........
> 
> 
> 
> Lovely picture of a lovely boat.


The original question was about pros and cons of steel sailboats. I believe that anyone asking about steel sailboats is interested in a long distance fulltime cruiser, not an around the buoys, oversized day sailor like Frankie.
What Bob has consistently offered is a Lincoln Continental or Mazaratti for use as an off road 4X4 vehicle, kinda like offering a Tour de France bike for use as a mountain bike. It reminds me when I was young and naïve, building my first offshore boat, while reflecting the priorities Bob and other armchair experts spout here.
When I talked about racing boat priorities to a tug boat skipper building next to me, he kept saying " You will be like a "greyhound in the jungle!"
2 years in the South Pacific taught me well, that he was right, and that the Kiwi racing skipper I was getting my info from was full of crap, when it comes to cruising boat priorities. 
No Bob, a Lincoln Continental does not make a good off road vehicle! 
However, you would have to get off the beaten path or to realize that.


----------



## Brent Swain

shank32095 said:


> Brent, I believe you have finally given a new meaning to the word insane. I am going to call it " inswain ". Inswainity results from having to reread your reposts that any sane individual would never had posted in the first place. Please go back to passing gas and listening to traffic reports on the radio.


A guy who semi retires in his mid 20's to cruise the South Pacific in his own yacht , spends his life cruising, when he could be working and solving the world people shortage, paying a mortgage, groveling to and kissing a boss's ass daily, spending hours daily in a smoggy traffic line up, a guy who wakes up daily in beautiful anchorages, instead of in a smog bank , a guy who eats real food, instead of intrafacial chemotherapy , food like substances from the corporate mass poisoning industry, a guy who spent most of his life without being henpecked daily/?
Man how "insane" can a guy get!


----------



## bobperry

I like the world of design I live in Brent. I don't want yours. It does not appeal to me. I do not want to be known as the designer of ugly boats. My boats are designed for a different life style than yours. There are other life styles you know. I like beautiful, fast boats.


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
You seem to work very hard at explaining how perfect your life is. I find that a bit like you are trying hard to convince yourself. You probably have little choice. We have heard how perfect everything thing is for you ad nauseum.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> CPP and OAS contributions go to Duffy and Ford?
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> How does that work exactly? How do they get their hands on CPP contributions? (that *I* have actually made all my adult life, so yes, I certainly won't turn it down)


They are paid out of the government cookie jar. The more money I take out of it, the less left for starving guys like them! I think I can find hungrier people to give it to.


----------



## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Okay - I'm sorry - that's funny...well, only if you're not a member of the Church of Swaintology.


This is the kind of guy young urban women swoon over. If that is what they admire, I am complimented by their lack of interest in me. That would truly be an insult!

I hear he has a bad case of that common form of insanity called "Religion."


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> I don't think I'm as impressed as you Smack - I see at LEAST a 3' line coming off the stern.


Not much wake, if you go slow enough!


----------



## bobperry

Working on interior finish details for Frankie and having fun at it.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Jeff:
> Owner motored Frankie over to the marina this morning in 15 to 20 and a Puget Sound chop. I asked him if it pounded or slammed and he said no. He thought it was "rock steady". That surprised me a bit. I anticipated some slamming with that ultra flat rocker. Maybe it's a low frontal area thang. What do you think? He hit one big tug wake and one freighter wake and nothing. He is very happy. Our typical on the nose, "square" chop can be brutal on some boats. It can stop you dead. The old Valiant 40 with all that flair wasn't too happy in that chop and Frankie is about as opposite a shape to the V-40 as I can think of.


My first boat, a Pipe Dream, had deep V'd bows. On a windward bash from Vanuatu to Fiji, into a 25 knot squally trade winds ,she pounded like hell, when the flat side of that V shaped bow slammed down on a wave. My second boat, with similar bows, slammed only slightly less. My current boat, with well rounded sections forward, does no such slamming, but glides smoothly thru head seas. Deep V bows drop quickly, almost up to deck level, before a wave encounters any serious buoyancy. Then buoyancy builds up suddenly, and the boat stops .Rounded sections avoid this sudden buildup of buoyancy . Herreschoff writes that this is the reason clipper bows are impractical on boats under 45 feet.


----------



## Brent Swain

blt2ski said:


> Now for just the hellishness of it.......Could a good skilled welder or equal build frankie to look as close as one can, in steel? I'm betting a GOOD welder probably could.......no BS talking here folks. Aluminum would probably be easier I would think....... Then again, I have never worked with these materials. SHould ask Ying and Yang......twin sons with welding degree's I suppose........
> 
> Just to get us back on track.....
> 
> did Bob ever get that aruminum beach boat built he designed for himself?
> 
> marty


One could ,but why would he bother. Going to all that extra trouble would have minimal if any returns, or justification.


----------



## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> My first boat a Pipe Dream had deep V'd bows. On a windward bash from Vanuatu to Fiji into a 25 knot squally trade wind ,she pounded like hell when the flat side of that V shaped bow slammed down on a wave. My second boat with similar bows slammed only slightly less. My current boat, with well rounded sections forward, does no such slamming, but glides smoothly thru head seas. Deep V bows drop quickly almost up to deck level, before a wave encounters any serious buoyancy. Then buoyancy builds up suddenly, and the boat stops .Rounded sections avoid this sudden buildup of buoyancy . Herreschoff writes that this is the reason clipper bows are impractical on boats under 45 feet.


I am sure you have said before, but what was your first boat Brent??


----------



## Brent Swain

paulk said:


> I seem to remember Yves Tanton stating something like you need to have about 60' to make steel work for the weight/performance ratio. With all the ice melting and the coral dying, plus being able to tell exactly where you are all the time so as to avoid rocks, does steel simply become a relatively inexpensive raw material with high maintenance costs? Starts to sound a bit like wood.


I met an old Kiwi in Nelson New Zealand who had owned wooden boats all his life. He had built himself a 36 ft Matangi motor sailer. He was amazed at how little maintenance his steel boat required , compared to his wooden boats.
14 to 15 days from BC to Hawaii in my 36 footers is not slow. If you ask offshore cruisers in steel boats around that size, you will find that their passage times are about the same as that of any other cruisers. Some under 30 feet also have reasonable passage times. You would be better off to ask them about their experience with reality, rather than go on armchair theory.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Brent: You appear to have a reading comprehension problem. You asked me how Frankie was built ( it's been documented here several times) and I explained quickly the method. That's all. I did not make any claims. I don't have to. The boat speaks volumes for itself. It has nothing to do with whether steel is a good or bad building material. We never considered steel.
> 
> I am certainly not threatening you Brent. I can't find any threats. I'm just saying that I can't imagine you would want a face to face meeting with me. Maybe you can. I do not do "demolition derbies" in my boats. My boats are far too beautiful and their owners far too intelligent for that level of stupidity. You say the most ridiculous things sometimes Brent. I'm not sure I have ever seen someone celebrate his own ignorance to the level you do., You parade it. You live in a world where you are constantly on the defense. But that makes sense given your output. You have no offence.
> 
> Bob, what I am suggesting is your theory about my steel boats not being strong enough, is not one you have much confidence in.
> What holds strip planked boats together? Fastenings in red cedar! What holds fastenings in red cedar? Friction between the red cedar and the fastenings.. Thus strip planked wooden boats are held together by friction.
> You imply that using a material which has a tensile strength of 60,000 PSI may not be strong enough if you don't use the best engineering, yet you advocate one of yours ,held together by friction, as a better choice.
> Instead of one which is 3/16 th plate,11,500 per linear inch tensile strength in all directions, you advocate one held together by 16 gauge fastenings every 6 inches.
> I have posted to death all the structural engineering principles in my boats. The fact that too many have not been able to grasp the simple principles involved, is not my problem. Intelligent people get it, and it is only them I have any interest in dealing with.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> My first boat, a Pipe Dream, had deep V'd bows. On a windward bash from Vanuatu to Fiji, into a 25 knot squally trade winds ,she pounded like hell, when the flat side of that V shaped bow slammed down on a wave. My second boat, with similar bows, slammed only slightly less. My current boat, with well rounded sections forward, does no such slamming, but glides smoothly thru head seas.


The story goes that Peterson came up with the U-bow he introduced on Ganbare due to that exact experience on a Tahiti race - on Improbable IIRC.


----------



## Brent Swain

chall03 said:


> I am sure you have said before, but what was your first boat Brent??


 It was a "Pipe Dream" designed by Francis S Kinney and featured in his book "Skene's Elements of Yacht Design"
Great to windward , uncontrollable downwind. In NZ I took the rudder off the keel and gave her a spade rudder 6 ft further aft ,a huge improvement.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> bobperry said:
> 
> 
> 
> What holds strip planked boats together? Fastenings in red cedar! What holds fastenings in red cedar? Friction between the red cedar and the fastenings.. Thus strip planked wooden boats are held together by friction.
> 
> You imply that using a material which has a tensile strength of 60,000 PSI may not be strong enough if you don't use the best engineering, yet you advocate one of yours ,held together by friction, as a better choice.
> Instead of one which is 3/16 th plate,11,500 per linear inch tensile strength in all directions, you advocate one held together by 16 gauge fastenings every 6 inches.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you may have overlooked a few gallons of epoxy and a few yards of glass &/or Carbon fabric there Brent.
Click to expand...


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Rhys:
> Frankie does not feel like a big boat when you are sailing it either. It is light on the helm nimble and quick to respond. I'd say it feels like any normal 30'er. It's very long but it's light and skinny. It will be very easy to single hand.


An intelligent single hander would want proper lifelines, but that's not Bob's fault. When the owner figures it out the hard way , they may be calling him "Bob." ( As long as he keeps bobbing)


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> I have posted to death all the structural engineering principles in my boats. The fact that too many have not been able to grasp the simple principles involved, is not my problem. Intelligent people get it, and it is only them I have any interest in dealing with.


Everybody gets it Brent - the fact that many disagree with your anecdotal and rule of thumb & eyeball engineering principles does not make them unintelligent.


----------



## Brent Swain

[I can do this all night. I'm just waiting for Brent to post one example of professional design work. It's going to be a very long wait.[/QUOTE]

Many pictures of my boats have already been posted on the earlier part of this discussion. You forgetting Bob? Getting that old folk's disease called Waldheimers disease? (In Germany, its when you get so old, you forget you were a NAZI when you were young.)


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> An intelligent single hander would want proper lifelines, but that's not Bob's fault. When the owner figures it out the hard way , they make be calling him "Bob." ( As long as he keeps bobbing)


You need to improve your reading comprehension before commenting Brent - it was well documented that Bob wanted them, the owner didn't.

Guess who got what they wanted.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but unless they know what they are talking about, those opinions are best kept to oneself.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> Everybody gets it Brent - the fact that many disagree with your anecdotal and rule of thumb & eyeball engineering principles does not make them unintelligent.


It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to understand that an arc is stronger than a flat surface, that an arc is under compression, while a flat surface is under only a bending load, or that a boat which can go decades, and hundreds of thousands of miles of open ocean, in all conditions and severe torture tests which would have quickly destroyed most boats, without a serious structural failure, is stronger.
Anyone who cant get that, is definitely "unintelligent."


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> You need to improve your reading comprehension before commenting Brent - it was well documented that Bob wanted them, the owner didn't.
> 
> Guess who got what they wanted.
> 
> Everyone is entitled to their opinion but unless they know what they are talking about, those opinions are best kept to oneself.


That is why I said "Its not Bob's fault." It is clearly you who have the reading difficulty. Go back and read it again.

Dyslexics of the world, untie!


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Lets see. People doing it the "Normal " way, spend decades trying to get off the treadmill, and free to cruise, spending tens of thousands to get there, something I have accomplished in my early 20's , on very little money.
> And you say I'm the one who's "misguided?"
> While other liveaboards are constantly complaining about dampness, and mold, I have eliminated all such problems decades ago, and my clients keep saying their brentboat is the most comfortable home they have ever had , in winter , in BC, and you say I am the one who is "Misguided?"
> Sure glad the number of "misguided" is still small. It would be crowded out here, otherwise.


You are fanatical about your method of producing boats - no question about that. You have repeatedly stated in every way imaginable that any other method of design and construction is "stupid".

You are fanatical about your lifestyle choices - no question about that - very few people want to spend their lives alone on small boats, no family etc.

Most people also want to make a contribution to society over their lives, not simply live minimally and then suck on the public tit in their old age.

Yes Brent, you ARE a fanatic.

"My way is the only true and right way" - Sound familiar?


----------



## bobperry

"Bob, what I am suggesting is your theory about my steel boats not being strong enough, is not one you have much confidence in."

There you go making up stuff again Brent. What theory is this? Another product of your reading comprehensions struggles? Show me the exact quote where I said that. I mean the exact quote. Or shut the Fuuk up. I get tired of your lies. I don't think any of us question that steel boats can be strong. That's pretty much a given. You need to back up your words with some facts before quoting me.

I'll just keep posting some great boats here when I respond. Because that is something you cannot do. Reality bites. I've seen some pics of your dog's breakfast boats and I would love to forget them They are aesthetic pollution. What I have never seen is evidence of your "design work".

Jon:
The U shaped bow sections came along well before Doug Peterson. Check out any of the Early, IOR boats from the mid 70's. It was pretty much standard well before GANBARE.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> You are fanatical about your method of producing boats - no question about that. You have repeatedly stated in every way imaginable that any other method of design and construction is "stupid".
> 
> You are fanatical about your lifestyle choices - no question about that - very few people want to spend their lives alone on small boats, no family etc.
> 
> Most people also want to make a contribution to society over their lives, not simply live minimally and then suck on the public tit in their old age.
> 
> Yes Brent, you ARE a fanatic.
> 
> "My way is the only true and right way" - Sound familiar?


 By enabling people to get off the consumerism( Squanderism ) treadmill early and affordably , I have enable them to cut their environmental foot print by over 90% in some matters. That is no small contribution. I have reduced my own personal environmental foot print exponentially over my lifetime, and over the indefinite lifetimes of future generations, which I never created.
That is no small contribution.
I have enabled people to build roller furlers for under $150, anchor winches for under $25, self steering for under $50,540 GPD water makers for under $800, hulls in a matter of days instead of months, taught youth how to do my job, lobbied effectively for legal changes to protect spousal abuse victims and date rape victims , defended such victims, campaigned for protection of our health care system, and kept no trade secrets. That is no small contribution. 
And you say I should feel guilty about not screwing up the futures of your own children and grandchildren, etc, or for lobbying effectively to keep their lives safer.? 
My critics often live lifestyles which would take several more planets to sustain. I don't. You say I should?
Do you?

You suck the squanderism tit of unsustainable environmental degradation, for short term trinkets and toys, killing your children's futures in the proccess.
One's personal environmental foot print is measured by how much money they go thru, period!


----------



## bobperry

Nobody gives a rip about your "lifestyle". It's a BS lifestyle. I'll choose mine and you go right ahead and choose yours. But do not try and tell me your's is better. To do that is the argument of an ignorant man.

Tonight I am doing the left over lamb shanks as lamb shank stew as coached by Christian last night. I am doing his lentil recipe too. My buddy Steve is coming over. We will dine well and not eat meat preserved in cooking oil or anything gathered from the bottom of a dumpster. That is a promise.

I see BS is gone. His second shift at the 7-11 must be starting.

Note how BS was unable to produce the quotes he credited to me. It's a recurrent theme. He lies.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> You suck the squanderism tit of unsustainable environmental degradation, for short term trinkets and toys, killing your children's futures in the proccess.
> One's personal environmental foot print is measured by how much money they go thru, period!


Pretty remarkable conclusions for someone who doesn't know the first f**kin' thing about me, other than that I like sailboats.

Is that a different example of the type of knowledge & judgement you apply to your engineering calculations?


----------



## bobperry

Jon, Jon, Jon, Jon, Jon:
BS has proven time and time over that he doesn't have to know anything about a subject or anyone to have an opinion. Classic case is his self admitted "problem with numbers". That's wonderful for a guy who makes the claim that he "designs yachts".

But he is funny.

Here is some reality:


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Getting that old folk's disease called Waldheimers disease? (In Germany, its when you get so old, you forget you were a NAZI when you were young.)


Seriously? Brent there's no need to be a douche.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I have reduced my own personal environmental foot print exponentially over my lifetime, and over the indefinite lifetimes of future generations, which I never created.
> 
> That is no small contribution.


Well there's something we can be grateful for.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> [ Getting that old folk's disease called Waldheimers disease? (In Germany, its when you get so old, you forget you were a NAZI when you were young.)


It took 4334 posts before Godwin's Law reared its ugly head.

Not bad, considering the amount of sniping that's gone on in this thread.


----------



## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> Well there's something we can be grateful for.


And yet people still doubt Darwin.


----------



## scubadoo

bobperry said:


> Jon, Jon, Jon, Jon, Jon:
> BS has proven time and time over that he doesn't have to know anything about a subject or anyone to have an opinion. Classic case is his self admitted "problem with numbers". That's wonderful for a guy who makes the claim that he "designs yachts".
> 
> But he is funny.
> 
> Not wanting to "geek out" here, but is this the Legendary Bob Perry who designed the Valiant 40?


----------



## smackdaddy

That's the one, doo.

Big deal.

What about the Legendary Brent Swain who eats oily cheese in the middle of his tiny carbon footprint? Surely you've heard of him.


----------



## scubadoo

Wow! I can't believe it....for 12 years I worked with a fellow in Minneapolis that talked my ear off about the Valiants on Lake Texoma....Beautiful boats, had the pleasure of touring one once in Saint Martin. Wish there was one in my future!


----------



## scubadoo

Sorry, I have not heard of Brent until today. I do like his small carbon footprint idea, but the Russian tank school of yacht design is a bit over the edge for me.


----------



## Classic30

scubadoo said:


> Wow! I can't believe it....for 12 years I worked with a fellow in Minneapolis that talked my ear off about the Valiants on Lake Texoma....Beautiful boats, had the pleasure of touring one once in Saint Martin. Wish there was one in my future!


Looks like Bob's found another worshipper...


----------



## chall03

You have to give to Brent and his boat's that they are if nothing else, resilient. 

We are fast approaching 5000 posts and the Brent and Bob show is going strong. 

Paulo lasted less than 10.....


----------



## bobperry

I had to Google Godwin's Law. That's very good..

Glad you like the Valiants Doo.


----------



## scubadoo

The Valiant 40 will always hold a special place in my dreams.

My boss currently owns one of your Nordic 40's (also a beautiful, meticulously maintained boat) that is docked in Maine at this time...hoping to have a shot at that one some day!

Awesome Photobucket site....Is that your Son at the drawing board?


----------



## bobperry

Doo:
No that is not my son. That is Will Porter a recent intern working in my office. Will is 16 years old and stayed with me for 16 vdays while I coached him on various aspects of design. If you go back a month in this thread you can read more about my work with Will.

My son Spike is the handsome, dark haired young man wearing armor in some pics.
Here is a pic of me with both of my sons.


----------



## Jeff_H

Brent Swain said:


> I think Witholtz ,Tanton and Pape understood the material ,and had some hands on experience working with it. They would be a better source of info than someone who has no understanding of the material.


Brent:

I worked for Charlie Wittholz. He had a wonderful eye and a strong sense of tradition. He really did seem to understand how boats behaved. Charlie worked for some of the greatest designers of all time, Alden, Rhodes, S&S and worked with and knew many of the 'household' name designers and builders.

Charlie designed the old fashion way, with very precise hand drafting, and carefully annotated hand calculations on note book paper, which were kept in a 'project notebook' and then filed at the end of the project. His weight and buoyancy calcs were complete and updated as decisions or changes were made.

His structural calculations were simple two-dimensional calculations; pretty much treating everything as simply supported beams and columns, which in itself added to the safety factor. He used standard scantling tables and recommended loadings from the usual sources. It was good conservative structural design.

His steel boats were usually (but not always) somewhat 'back engineered'. He designed most of his boats for wood, and then used the calculated loadings from the wood design to size the steel frames and skin. Because the framing and plating was heavier on the steel boats, they typically had less ballast and sail area. As compromse, at least on the smaller designs (under 40 feet), in order to keep the weight of the steel structure and plating in a reasonable range, the safety factors were reduced and so the wooden boats were usually designed a little stronger and stiffer than the steel boats.

Charlie did build a few wooden boats, but he never actually built a steel boat with his own hands. While Charlie designed a lot of steel boats, he only owned one steel boat and that was near the end of his life. He did not keep it very long.

I think if Charlie was still alive he would probably design the way that Bob does, meaning very careful calculations performed using computer software to make the calculations a lot easier and more precise.

Jeff


----------



## scubadoo

bobperry said:


> Doo:
> No that is not my son. That is Will Porter a recent intern working in my office. Will is 16 years old and stayed with me for 16 vdays while I coached him on various aspects of design. If you go back a month in this thread you can read more about my work with Will.
> 
> My son Spike is the handsome, dark haired young man wearing armor in some pics.
> Here is a pic of me with both of my sons.


Lucky bunch! Both you and your boys!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobperry

Yep, you could say that.

Here's proof that steel hulls do not have to be ugly. This is a MacClear and Harris design.


----------



## sonsunmandelin

brent swain!!!!! u rock man, i owned pearl song, and man, i loved her!


----------



## sonsunmandelin

if i had the money id own a brent swain and head to the arctic, my dream!


----------



## smackdaddy

sonsunmandelin said:


> brent swain!!!!! u rock man, i owned pearl song, and man, i loved her!


Hey son - welcome to SN dude. It's good to see Brent getting some love from an ex-owner. We were starting to wonder if there were any out there.

Tell us about Pearl Song. Any pics? What would you say the pros and cons are?


----------



## sonsunmandelin

yea, i have a few pics, there abaout 12 years or so old


----------



## sonsunmandelin

pro is lock the hatch and your bomb proof, hit something, sledge hammer it back into place, the con, you need a hurricane to move it, i live in the gulf islands, and it sucks for wind blankets, ext.. and pearl song had no engine, but a 22 foot ulow, sculling oar


----------



## smackdaddy

sonsunmandelin said:


> pro is lock the hatch and your bomb proof, hit something, sledge hammer it back into place, the con, you need a hurricane to move it, i live in the gulf islands, and it sucks for wind blankets, ext.. and pearl song had no engine, but a 22 foot ulow, sculling oar


That makes sense. How much did you have to fight corrosion?

And did you build it or buy it used?


----------



## sonsunmandelin

i am a BIG SWAIN FAN!!!!!!!


----------



## sonsunmandelin

i bought it, and as for corrosion, keep her properly painted, and watch out for electrolysis, everywhere


----------



## sonsunmandelin

robert redford would not have had that problem, in "all is lost", with a swain, i tell ya that!


----------



## smackdaddy

sonsunmandelin said:


> i bought it, and as for corrosion, keep her properly painted, and watch out for electrolysis, everywhere


Yeah - we've read quite a bit about how much epoxy you need to keep on the boat to prevent corrosion. At the end of that day, it's basically a steel-cored epoxy composite.


----------



## SloopJonB

scubadoo said:


> Sorry, I have not heard of Brent until today. I do like his small carbon footprint idea, but the Russian tank school of yacht design is a bit over the edge for me.


That is an extremely apropos comment - Brents boats are indeed the T34 or AK47 of sailboats. 

We should all keep in mind that the T34 was the most effective tank of WW II.


----------



## SloopJonB

sonsunmandelin said:


> brent swain!!!!! u rock man, i owned pearl song, and man, i loved her!


$hit - more idolatry.


----------



## SloopJonB

sonsunmandelin said:


> pro is lock the hatch and your bomb proof, hit something, sledge hammer it back into place, the con, you need a hurricane to move it, i live in the gulf islands, and it sucks for wind blankets, ext.. and pearl song had no engine, but a 22 foot ulow, sculling oar


Sculling a steeler through the islands? Now THAT is hard core.

We need to see a pic of your shoulders.


----------



## bobperry

Love the sledge hammer look.
Do you have any pics you can post mandolin?


----------



## sonsunmandelin

check my profile fer pics


----------



## sonsunmandelin

it was nice having the big sculling oar, i use to use my rudder to scull with, once for 11 and a half hours against current most of the way, i slept for days after, i usually, will just anchor when no wind, but my 8 passengers did not agree,lol


----------



## bobperry

Mandelin:
I see a pic of you but no boat pics. Nice pic BTW.
Do you have the Columbia now? Which model?

11.5 hours of constant sculling? Amazing. Almost hard to believe. Adverse current for 11.5 hours? Boy, that's some tide.


----------



## sonsunmandelin

weird, my profile album has lots of pics of most of my boats, i do have a columbia 36 1968, i got it from a divorce settlement and the x husband doesnt want to help me figure out the systems, but hey, i have already sailed the crap out of it, and its only bin 3 weeks, i took the boat on a shake down in 4o knots in juan da fuca straits, and found any week parts, my process of elimination, but i wouldn't suggest that method of doing it,lol but it held out and at 6-8 knots of movin to into windward is pretty dam good, its a good boat


----------



## sonsunmandelin

my album name is 25 years, in my profile


----------



## christian.hess

the t34 is what destroyed hitlers dreams of that massive barge of a tank I forget the name...he so wanted to rule the world

point aside

I cruised on a steel boat halfway around the world

I loved it..it was on the smallish side at 37

jouvelt-nivelt design from france but built in spain

very stout...and well built

just a little topuchup here and there

the point is to never ever let rust go past the surface phase

anywhoo


----------



## bobperry

Mandelin:
Found it.
Boy, you have owned some interesting boats. Quite a wide range of craft.
From a San Juan 24 to a BS boat is quite a stretch in light air performance.

Most people don't know it but the Columbia 36 was a Bill Crealock (Westsail 32) design. It was a fast boat in its day.


----------



## mstern

Mandelin: it looks like the forward edge of the coach house on Pearl is asymetrical; the starboard side is longer than the port side, and the front edge is angled. I thought it might be an optical illusion, but its apparent in both of the pics you posted here. How come?


----------



## SloopJonB

sonsunmandelin said:


> weird, my profile album has lots of pics of most of my boats, i do have a columbia 36 1968, i got it from a divorce settlement and the x husband doesnt want to help me figure out the systems, but hey, i have already sailed the crap out of it, and its only bin 3 weeks, i took the boat on a shake down in 4o knots in juan da fuca straits, and found any week parts, my process of elimination, but i wouldn't suggest that method of doing it,lol but it held out and at 6-8 knots of movin to into windward is pretty dam good, its a good boat


Small world - that couple with Ruffian wanted to trade for my Columbia 43 a couple of years back.

They seemed like a solid, if hippy-ish pair - wonder what killed it for them?


----------



## sonsunmandelin

well, im not use to such an efficient boat, speaking of the columbia 36, and gear that works, and a engine that starts, "atomic 4", and not to mention HOT water!, man, i mite get bored not having to constantly jury rig everything, 
and i see my reputation on... " oh, its just right there, couple hours we will be there" when 2 days later we actually get there, is being destroyed, not saying people are going to trust me, but at 6 plus knots forward< **) 

livin the dream!!!


----------



## sonsunmandelin

it is a small world sloop jon, i didnt meet him, but, its a story i have seen many times, love, sunshine, sailing, then baby!


----------



## jak3b

sonsunmandelin,How was the kismet tri?.


----------



## sonsunmandelin

i loved the tri, but it was glassed over ply, and it was heavy, and safe, i had her fo 2 years sold her for 8 then bought her back, now 2 months ago i sold her to a guy who lives across the country, and the boat is here, he hasnt even seen it, and i still am helping him run the bilge pumps, but yesterday i got a call saying she was going down, so, i had to go and save her, its stressful taking care of 2 boats, and the tri takes water thru the inboard rudder shaft, anyway, i loved that boat, kristofferson boats are scattered around here, 
my tri was the only one built with round roof, and had a very innovative rotating mast steped on a trailer hitch


----------



## sonsunmandelin

witch reminds me if the steel, goes down, it goes faster, prob even faster then ferro cement
i havnt tested that fact, thank god


----------



## outbound

Any thoughts on metals other than Fe & Al ?. Remember a boat called the corten. Wonder about Monel until I heard the price. Wondered why Fe plate couldn't be constructed with an inner flange. Flange would be untreated. Rest factory coated. Could weld together at construction site. Perhaps ceramic or other impervious material. Shape of plate be developed at factory with hydraulics so no limitations and complex curves permissible. Heard of molded Al. Why not molded steel.


----------



## Rhys05

Titanium Honeycomb would be pretty cool.


----------



## bobperry

Mnasdelin:
Tell me about that big houseboat in your pics. It looks amazing. What happened to it?


----------



## outbound

Titanium would be wicked cool- light, strong, workable, and fairly impervious in the marine environment. Could envision Ti hull with cored synthetic deck- a variation on what they do with Al. ?How would you bottom paint it?


----------



## Rhys05

Titanium wouldn't have the problems that aluminum has with copper based bottom paint. Aluminum is more reactive than copper, whereas there isn't much that is more noble than titanium. I'm thinking that normal bottom paint probably wouldn't be a problem. You'd probably still want to do an epoxy bottom coat of some sort, if only for better adhesion of your anti-fouling bottom paint. Now, price, well, if you have to ask, you can't afford it! (titanium is ~14x the price of aluminum)


----------



## bobperry

Happy birthday Violet my sweetie! See you tonight.


----------



## smackdaddy

outbound said:


> Titanium would be wicked cool- light, strong, workable, and fairly impervious in the marine environment. Could envision Ti hull with cored synthetic deck- a variation on what they do with Al. ?How would you bottom paint it?


The more important question is can you shoot it with a big rifle and not make a hole? Everyone knows that the _real_ test of a proper sailboat.


----------



## Rhys05

smackdaddy said:


> The more important question is can you shoot it with a big rifle and not make a hole. Everyone knows that the _real_ test of a proper sailboat.


Well, you CAN spin it at 120,000 rpm and it not explode, and even when it does, the rotor is still pretty much intact, so, I'm going to go with "yes." 










The Centrifuge Incident


----------



## smackdaddy

Rhys05 said:


> Well, you CAN spin it at 120,000 rpm and it not explode, and even when it does, the rotor is still pretty much intact, so, I'm going to go with "yes."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Centrifuge Incident


Wow - you _CAN_ sail fast!


----------



## bobperry

Don't forget the often heard about but seldom seen "demolition derby regatta". How's that hull going to hold up when it's T-boned by a BS boat.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Don't forget the often heard about but seldom seen "demolition derby regatta". How's that hull going to hold up when it's T-boned by a BS boat.


No one has had the heart to tell BS this, but his boats aren't fast enough to catch up to anyone else to actually hit them. Those demolition derbies of his only actually happen in mooring fields when the plastic boat owners are at home on their treadmills.


----------



## SloopJonB

outbound said:


> Titanium would be wicked cool- light, strong, workable, and fairly impervious in the marine environment. Could envision Ti hull with cored synthetic deck- a variation on what they do with Al. ?How would you bottom paint it?


I've never fully understood the fascination with Ti on boats. It's very noble but the weight issue seems to be way overstated.

Al has a specific gravity of 27, Ti of 48 and Fe of 56. It's 77% heavier than Al and only 14% lighter than Fe.

Sure it's lighter than Fe, but not THAT much - it's WAY heavier than Al. Vastly more expensive and extremely difficult & specialized to machine.

I can see it in aircraft where it's properties can make a critical difference but on a boat?

Can someone explain it to me? Is it mostly just because it's cool stuff?


----------



## Rhys05

SloopJonB said:


> I've never fully understood the fascination with Ti on boats. It's very noble but the weight issue seems to be way overstated.
> 
> Al has a specific gravity of 27, Ti of 48 and Fe of 56. It's 77% heavier than Al and only 14% lighter than Fe.
> 
> Sure it's lighter than Fe, but not THAT much - it's WAY heavier than Al. Vastly more expensive and extremely difficult & specialized to machine.
> 
> I can see it in aircraft where it's properties can make a critical difference but on a boat?
> 
> Can someone explain it to me? Is it mostly just because it's cool stuff?


I don't disagree, but it IS 42% less dense than stainless steel and has 53% more tensile strength than aluminum. That's why we use it on our ultra high speed centrifuge rotors. Only really would make sense on a "sky is the limit" super boat where you try to have as few compromises as possible between comfort, weight, and strength.


----------



## Faster

There would be some logistical issues welding Ti.. can't be welded in free air, needs to be done in an argon cloud or it will literally catch fire... It can be done, but it complicates things... The light/spark show when you're sandblasting it prior to painting would be fun, though...


----------



## outbound

Faster any guesstimates on cost foe a 45' hull? Just raw materials..


----------



## sonsunmandelin

bobperry said:


> Mnasdelin:
> Tell me about that big houseboat in your pics. It looks amazing. What happened to it?


it is a long story but, basically it put me on the map, i was paid 2k to have it, then i sold it a week later, during winter here in canada's west coast, and gales ripped thru fulford harbor, so i sold it, hard to anchor 197 tons in gales, so.. i panicked, folded my cards, sold it to ganges marina, where they fought islands trust 5 years to keep it and sunk twice, it was a soot show,lol, i sold it for 8k, so it was a stressful 10k profit,
wont be doing that again


----------



## chall03

bobperry said:


> Don't forget the often heard about but seldom seen "demolition derby regatta". How's that hull going to hold up when it's T-boned by a BS boat.












We have a great demolition derby most weeks on Sydney Harbour 
The CYCA(of Sydney to Hobart fame) summer/winter series has seen 200 boats line up to a start line.

It is is ridiculous fun.

I remember one of the new millionaire maxi toys cutting the fleet up a few years back, the skipper screaming "mother f***ing starboard" to all, but as he came up on one of the old salts on a Van de Stadt the guy looked over at him and just replied "STEEL"

The maxi beared away.


----------



## christian.hess

I just spilled my cofffee! ajajajajajajaajajajajajaja

hilarious

thanks for that


----------



## Capt Len

If you don't pine for a top o the line titanium hull .,you're just part of the bottom feeders club. Yellow cedar worked for me but everything is relative.


----------



## SloopJonB

sonsunmandelin said:


> it is a long story but, basically it put me on the map, i was paid 2k to have it, then i sold it a week later, during winter here in canada's west coast, and gales ripped thru fulford harbor, so i sold it, hard to anchor 197 tons in gales, so.. i panicked, folded my cards, sold it to ganges marina, where they fought islands trust 5 years to keep it and sunk twice, it was a soot show,lol, i sold it for 8k, so it was a stressful 10k profit,
> wont be doing that again


??? To what are you referring?


----------



## Rhys05

SloopJonB said:


> ??? To what are you referring?


The "house" "boat" that Bob asked him about, I think. It is in his photo section.


----------



## Faster

outbound said:


> Faster any guesstimates on cost foe a 45' hull? Just raw materials..


No idea.. member Stumble would know better. We used a lot of it in the Pulp & Paper industry - it's the only material that resisted the corrosion of the ClO2 we used for bleaching. As a general comparison, but no idea how valid it would be in this case... a regular SS tubing connector ran $15-20... the same fitting in Ti was $100. How that would compare to relative sheet/plate prices I'm not sure..


----------



## Rhys05

It would be my assumption that if you bought enough to do a 40' boat, you'd get at least a bit of a volume discount, but a 24" x 24" x 0.125" sheet of titanium at McMaster-Carr is $1592, while a sheet of 24" x 24" x 0.125" of high quality (corrosion resistant, high strength) aluminum is $110. Like I said, ~14x more than aluminum. I'm guessing that you'd also want to do more than 0.125" thick hulls..


----------



## outbound

So we are back to grp, composite wood, and Al as viable materials for those with visions of a boat within financial reach not requiring excessive maintenance that actually sails until one is up to mega yacht length.


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## christian.hess

as it has been for quite a long time now

jajaja


----------



## sonsunmandelin

just found a nether pic of "pearl song" my ol brent swain


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## SloopJonB

This looks like a good buy for someone wanting a steeler.

1996 Roberts Cutter Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


----------



## Classic30

chall03 said:


> I remember one of the new millionaire maxi toys cutting the fleet up a few years back, the skipper screaming "mother f***ing starboard" to all, but as he came up on one of the old salts on a Van de Stadt the guy looked over at him and just replied "STEEL"
> 
> The maxi beared away.


In the only Sydney-Hobart I've ever been in, I was one of the crew on one of those maxis heading for the start line at full speed just like you describe, with numerous "skittles" getting shoved out of the way to the left and right of us... No major damage done (that I know of) just a few scrapes off the paint job and a few damaged egos - but quite a spectacle, let me tell you!! 

(Of course, nowadays they've separated the boats into two separate start lines precisely to stop this happening.)


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> So we are back to grp, composite wood, and Al as viable materials for those with visions of a boat within financial reach not requiring excessive maintenance that actually sails until one is up to mega yacht length.


DEAD WRONG!
The many people happily cruising in small steel boats, and making just as good a passage times as most, who wouldn't dream of owning anything but steel boat, prove this dead wrong with every good passage they make .You'd be far better off getting your advice from those who have actual long term cruising experience in steel boats, rather than from those with little or no steel boat experience,trying to justify their plastic boat decisions.
A Canadian boat from Saltspring Island BC was just rolled and holed 1300 K NE of Auckland.Luckily for the skipper, a nearby freighter was able to pick him up in rough conditions. The boat was lost. What could punch a hole in a boat after being rolled? Probably a broken mast. The odds of a mast punching a hole in 3/16th steel plate?
ZERO!
I just checked a dent in a 36 anchored next to me, a dent made by hitting a rock at hull speed, about 6 inches deep by 40 inches in circumference. Tensile strength of 40 inches of 3/16th plate at 11,500 PSI per lineal inch? 460,000 lbs! It would have torn the bottom out of anything but a steel hull. This impact happened several years ago. The skipper has continued cruising since then , and hasn't got around to straightening it out. Its just not that important.
Ya Bob . I know . Its all the designer's fault when anyone hits a rock! (Jeeeezze)!
Odds of a mast floating in water, giving that kind of impact?
ZERO!
A plastic boat is only lower maintenance if you use it like Smack does, park it in a marina , throw money at it by day, then go home to a house and spout advice on all there is to know about living aboard and cruising full time, something he doesn't do.
A steel boat is more like an off road vehicle of cruising. Things simply don't work loose, pull out or leak .You don't have to keep rebedding gear, and chasing down leaks , as you do on nonmetal boats. Using a stock plastic boat for off the beaten path, full time, long term use is like using a Lincoln continental for off road or logging road use. In that kind of use, a steel boat has far less maintenance (repairs).
Without the freighter, the skipper of the returning boat NE of Auckland would be just another "lost without a trace" , skipper, like so many plastic boats cruisers. Had he had a steel hull, he could have jury rigged for the distance left to Tonga , or Rarotonga, had a new mast shipped up, and continued cruising.


----------



## sonsunmandelin

reconize this boat, i have always wanted to meet you, your boats rock brent


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## sonsunmandelin

locally i see 3 of your boats within a 30 mile radius of victoria, im a big fan! sounding like a freak, but, i have sailed pearl song and she was awsome, although no motor was a downer in the gulf islands as you would know, i talked to a father and son on the main land some years ago, on pricing a pilot house 37, but they built your boats, tried and true!


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## sonsunmandelin

lucky art! made it


----------



## sonsunmandelin

since, i am on a rampage i will note, that every swain owner i have met, witch is lots, all say the same thing "safe", i only have a columbia 36, right now, because of convenience according to my budget, or i would own the sailing submarine that will take me thru the arctic! but i could see, some people liking fb boats, for their speed in light winds, and probably will never even hit heavy winds, steel is not meant for fair weather
ok i am going to stop now


----------



## Brent Swain

Rhys05 said:


> It would be my assumption that if you bought enough to do a 40' boat, you'd get at least a bit of a volume discount, but a 24" x 24" x 0.125" sheet of titanium at McMaster-Carr is $1592, while a sheet of 24" x 24" x 0.125" of high quality (corrosion resistant, high strength) aluminum is $110. Like I said, ~14x more than aluminum. I'm guessing that you'd also want to do more than 0.125" thick hulls..


Last time I talked to the Pardys, they were talking about a copper nickle boat , zero antifouling or maintenance needed. I suggested he first ask Winston what his maintenance costs in time and money per year are, then calculate how many dollars and years it would take to make up for the tiny amount of maintenance time and cost per year going for steel would work out to. 
Several copper nickle boats were built in Britain. Expensive but doable. I once sold a set of 36 plans to a guy in Malasia who was planning to build in copper nickle. Don't know if he ever did.


----------



## Brent Swain

sonsunmandelin said:


> witch reminds me if the steel, goes down, it goes faster, prob even faster then ferro cement
> i havnt tested that fact, thank god


Wrong! Steel sinks much slower, because the same impact would create a much smaller hole, if any hole. It would probably just dent from an impact which would tear the bottom out of any non metal hull.
For this reason ,wood sinks the fastest, unless it is a raft.


----------



## bobperry

Tomorrow Kim and I are going out for a photo shoot on FRANCIS. The German magazine YACHT is doing a multiple page feature story on the boat and we need some new photos it seems. So I'm happy that I will enjoy a nice day of very fast and easy sailing on one of my beautiful creations.


I suppose I could say defensive and cranky things but I'll let my work speak for itself.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Any thoughts on metals other than Fe & Al ?. Remember a boat called the corten. Wonder about Monel until I heard the price. Wondered why Fe plate couldn't be constructed with an inner flange. Flange would be untreated. Rest factory coated. Could weld together at construction site. Perhaps ceramic or other impervious material. Shape of plate be developed at factory with hydraulics so no limitations and complex curves permissible. Heard of molded Al. Why not molded steel.


I was moored for a year off a shipyard in Auckland which built tugs ( A&G Price Limited) They said they had tried Corten . Wasn't worth the extra cost. You could only get it in plate, not in angle, rounds pipe etc, so any mild steel welded to it got ate by electrolysis, as did the welds, which couldn't be got in corten. It was far more prone to distortion,and more expensive. The foreman in that yard was building himself a 36 footer, and had no use for corten. He said common mild steel was as good as anything.

A Dutchman told me of a company in Holland who had matched dies made for a round bilged steel hull. Each half was pressed out of a single sheet and joined along the centreline. Super fair ,but super expensive.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> I suppose I could say defensive and cranky things but I'll let my work speak for itself.


Yeah, despite Brent's yelling and screaming to try to cover it up - his works speaks for itself. And it doesn't really say good things.


----------



## smackdaddy

sonsunmandelin said:


> since, i am on a rampage i will note, that every swain owner i have met, witch is lots, all say the same thing "safe", i only have a columbia 36, right now, because of convenience according to my budget, or i would own the sailing submarine that will take me thru the arctic! but i could see, some people liking fb boats, for their speed in light winds, and probably will never even hit heavy winds, steel is not meant for fair weather
> ok i am going to stop now


Actually, I think that's a good summation. If being safe in a steel submarine in the Arctic is very important to you - Brent's boats are pretty good for that.

I don't think anyone around here would argue that point.


----------



## SloopJonB

I said a similar thing about 4000 posts back - If I was possessed enough to want to sail the North West Passage, a Brentboat would be high on my list.

If one is looking for a utilitarian boat with the ultimate survival aspects as the main goal, his boats are at or near the top and I don't think anyone here has ever disputed that.

It is the messianic zeal that says any other kind of boat is basically stupid, no matter the purpose it is for, that has caused much or most of the friction on this thread.

The same logic applied to cars would be a diesel powered early Land Rover.

Neither of them suit me and my needs.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
4,000 posts back?
I read he first BS post tonight and I thought, "****ski, it's like a broken record around here. Nothing ever changes with Brent." Well, I have a couple of new things in the work that will have you chatting and arguing, in a good way, and I'll spring them on you when the time is right.

Tonight I am sitting here excited that tomorrow I will experience performance under sail that truly raises the bar. And, I'm taking my granddaughter out for a put-put around the marina before we go sailing. Dad, Max, has to stay with her and Dad has to stay close to home because my grandson is due any day. I am doing my best to insure the strength of the gene pool. The pleasure has been mine.


----------



## SloopJonB

Are you due for a decent breeze tomorrow?

Is a chute going up?

Take a laptop and keep us posted in real time - I'm going to be home with my brand new today grandson and family so I'll be able to stay on top of anything you might post. 

Or not.


----------



## bobperry

Jon;

Yes, if I have my way the chute will go up.
I always get my way.


----------



## blt2ski

Woud be a nice day to sail, but will be in tacoma at the daffodil festival putting daffodils on two boats for a parade. One is a 1929 Lake Union Dreamboat. Beautiful old woodie.......alas a power woodie....but a BEAUTIFUL woodie none the less!

Have a good day bob!

Marty


----------



## bobperry

"Have a good day bob!

Marty"

I did have a good day Marty. It started around 6 am when I found out that I had a new grandson, Drake Shaw Perry. That was pretty exciting news. The gene pool is going to be just fine.

Then I went sailing on FRANCIS. I took my neighbor, a doctor, with us. John, the doctor, is an extremely intelligent guy and has done some sailing. I had this feeling that he would be able to comprehend just how unique and perfect FRANCIS is. It worked. When I told him to take the tiller he went into shock.

We sailed at 9 knots+ consistantly without any effort at all. We began hitting 10 knots and saw as much as 11.3 knots. All of this was in about 14 knots TWS. The boat is amazing. Delicate on the helm and eels great when it accelerates. With that much boat sped you are pulling the TWA forward all the time. It takes a while to get used to that.

The bad news is that with our aramid fibre backstay we are getting a harmonic hum at about 9.5 knots. We will address this with some "funny fixes" and if they don't work we will go to a Navtec rod backstay.

It was pretty eye opening to just zoom around the bay, play with the boats racing and then zoom off again with so little effort required.

I could get used to liking this boat.
"Fast is fun".

The really great news is that Kim's wonderful wife Susan came with us today. She was very comfortable. At one point, when my neighbor Dr. John was steering we wanted to jibe. Kim said, "a gentle jibe". I said, "Hell with that. Slam it over. I want to see what happens." John tried to slam it over but with 63' LOA to jibe the boat just slid through the jibe with no fuss and we had a ton of time to handle the main. When we had completed the jib Kim's wife said, Is that all there is to it?" Or something kind of like that. Susan is not sure she wants a dodger now. She likes the boat. (designer breathes sigh of relief.)

A very good day.
Welcome to earth Drake Shaw Perry.


----------



## Brent Swain

Bob
Could you post the stability curve for Frankie?

Frankie is only perfect for the use for which she was designed; day sailing around the bay. For the far flung cruising mentioned at the beginning of this debate, she is as useless as a one legged man trying to kick ass.
A low income cruiser could easily build a proper cruising boat and have a circumnavigation or two behind him, in far less time than it would take him to even begin paying for a boat like that. Frankie could never sail enough miles to make up for the time and money she wasted. She could never win, in terms of miles per year spent on her.


----------



## bobperry

No BS. I will not post the stability curve. Because you are a jackass. Your previous comments on stability have been so stupid that I sincerely doubt you could interprit a true stability curve. You are a jerk who produces butt ugly boats and I choose not to show you my work. I am very willing to show it to anyone else.

I will happily PM the stability curve to anyone else here who wants to see it. Just ask. It is impressive. And what I find more impressive after today's sail is that the boat just feels stiff all the time. I expected more of a "soft spot" but the boat likes to sit at 15 degrees. I don't think we ever saw a heel angle in excess of 15 degrees.

I think that is clear.


----------



## Brent Swain

I think a stability curve of Frankie with her narrow beam, will clearly demonstrate the huge improvement of AVS to be gained by a narrow beam. I believe her AVS will be extremely high, compared to most super beamy, modern flush deckers, for exactly that reason.
A comparison of Frankies AVS with that of a wide beamed flush decker would be very informative.

If you don't like the stability curve of any boat, how do you improve it? Narrower beam . I've already done that on mine. She is very moderate in this respect. Or you can avoid flush decks and go higher on your cabin top camber. I have done that too ( as has Frankie). Or you can add a wheelhouse with over 3,000 lbs of buoyancy, the equivalent of adding thousands of pounds to the keel in the inverted position, along with a hatch capable of keeping water out in the inverted position. I have done that too.
So if you seek a boat with a high AVS, looking for all the above factors in a design will give you what you seek. 
As for Bobs childish insults, that is just the booze talking. He is more rational sober, but who isn't? 
Sad that stuff takes over so many lives.
Be careful with that stuff, Bob.


----------



## Brent Swain

CaptainQuiet said:


> I'm thinking about making the leap from fiberglass to steel for our next sailboat. We want to do some far flung cruising - maybe even circumnavigate. Our present boat is a 1977 Tartan 37 and while we love it - since we've had a child and possibly will have another one on the way it might get a bit small for a liveaboard situation.
> This summer I drove a big, old steel tour boat around the finger lakes and started thinking that steel might be a good way to get my family around the big marble.
> I've spent a week in the Caribbean on a glorious aluminium boat but have never sailed a steel one, so I have lots of questions about their performance as cruising boats?
> What are some of the better designers to keep and eye out for?
> How good are they in the hot climates?
> Are there any extra dangers in lightning?
> Thanks for any and all advice you can give.


Here are the original questions. Big, super expensive, and in cruising terms, totally impractical day sailors like Frankie, have nothing to do with " far flung cruising, maybe even a circumnavigation."
I think I have done a far better job of answering his original questions, than the plastic and wooden boat advocates have, especially better than the advocates of hugely over sized and over priced, day sailors.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> This looks like a good buy for someone wanting a steeler.
> 
> 1996 Roberts Cutter Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


Nice lifelines. Nice wheelhouse. Nice bow roller.
Roberts with skeg hung rudders are suspect, as he said he designs skegs to fall off if they hit anything, in his book "The Complete Guide to Metal Boats"

It can be rectified, if this boat has that problem.


----------



## bobperry

"As for Bobs childish insults, that is just the booze talking. He is more rational sober, but who isn't? 
Sad that stuff takes over so many lives.
Be careful with that stuff, Bob."

That's typical of you BS. You have zero design talent to show so you attack on a personal level. I made my first post right after I came home. No drinking involved. Even sober you are a jerk and a jackass. That's my personal attack. I suppose if you had a wife I could lower myself to your level an go after your wife like you did mine. But you are not that lucky and I am not that low.

When you have zero to show you try to deflect the argument to a personal level. That doesn't change anything. It sure doesn't produce "design work from BS" because you have none. You have angry words.

Here is what a designer does. He designs.


----------



## Brent Swain

sonsunmandelin said:


> reconize this boat, i have always wanted to meet you, your boats rock brent


Thanks
I remember building Pearl Song for Will. We built the shell on Quadra Island. Getting steel to Quadra was not all that expensive , but to Cortes, where Will and his family lived, was super expensive. So we turned the steel into a shell ( hull, decks, cabin, cockpit, keel rudder and skeg) in 12 days, and floated her over to Will's back yard on Cortes, where he finished her. Evan did his apprenticeship on her. Will and his family ( Wife and three kids, one in diapers) were picking clams for a living. He had just enough money for the shell. 5 years later they were cruising Mexico, an example of what can be done on a super low income.
I windjammed my last boat for several years on the BC coast, including the Gulf Islands and Tahiti, before putting an engine in her. One compensation for the glassy, windlessness of the Gulf |Islands, where one can spend days in an open anchorage without a breath of wind, is when the wind dies, no swell lasts for long.It quickly becomes a very comfortable glassy smooth, and you can throw light kedge out anywhere you can hit bottom. Another is it is never very far to the next fully protected anchorage. You can also go a long way in a glassy calm, by timing the currents.
When Will left Cabo , into a strong NW wind ,he covered 1066 miles in 6 days. He then broke the top 1/3rd off the box section of his wooden mast (using fittings I had warned him against) He still beat a Colvin Gazelle into Hawaii, which had left the same time as him ,by many days.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Bob
> Could you post the stability curve for Frankie?
> 
> *Frankie is only perfect for the use for which she was designed;* day sailing around the bay. For the far flung cruising mentioned at the beginning of this debate, she is as useless as a one legged man trying to kick ass.
> A low income cruiser could easily build a proper cruising boat and have a circumnavigation or two behind him, in far less time than it would take him to even begin paying for a boat like that. Frankie could never sail enough miles to make up for the time and money she wasted. She could never win, in terms of miles per year spent on her.


After the highlighted first sentence your post becomes ludicrous Brent.

A Z06 Corvette would also make a lousy world cruising sailboat but "Is perfect for the use for which it was designed".


----------



## Brent Swain

mstern said:


> Mandelin: it looks like the forward edge of the coach house on Pearl is asymetrical; the starboard side is longer than the port side, and the front edge is angled. I thought it might be an optical illusion, but its apparent in both of the pics you posted here. How come?


We used the same plastic pattern for both cabin sides, so they are identical. Looking from one side can make things look different.


----------



## bobperry

Keep in mind that Will is the guy who claimed he once sculled for 11.5 hours straight.
But why let reality interfere with the picture. But he is an interesting character. Glad he finally got a boat that sails.

"We used the same plastic pattern for both cabin sides, so they are identical. Looking from one side can make things look different"

So they both look equally ugly? Great. Let's see the detailed drawing of those deck lines. I'll bet there are none. BS can not post drawings of those deck lines.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Doo:
> No that is not my son. That is Will Porter a recent intern working in my office. Will is 16 years old and stayed with me for 16 vdays while I coached him on various aspects of design. If you go back a month in this thread you can read more about my work with Will.
> 
> My son Spike is the handsome, dark haired young man wearing armor in some pics.
> Here is a pic of me with both of my sons.


Man, you don't look anything like Batman in that photo!
Wow, look at the beer belly on that old guy, pressing against his shirt! Could that be the karate guy, who claims he spends a lot of time working out in the dojo? So much for that claim! I wonder how many other claims he makes are as obviously false. 
At any rate, despite karate being as useless as ballet dancing in self defense, it will help one defeat the one adversary most likely to kill us old guys ,health problems, due to inactivity.
So maybe that old guy should be working out as much as he claims to , in that form of "Japanese pyjama ballet dancing", called "Karate"!


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> Brent:
> 
> I worked for Charlie Wittholz. He had a wonderful eye and a strong sense of tradition. He really did seem to understand how boats behaved. Charlie worked for some of the greatest designers of all time, Alden, Rhodes, S&S and worked with and knew many of the 'household' name designers and builders.
> 
> Charlie designed the old fashion way, with very precise hand drafting, and carefully annotated hand calculations on note book paper, which were kept in a 'project notebook' and then filed at the end of the project. His weight and buoyancy calcs were complete and updated as decisions or changes were made.
> 
> His structural calculations were simple two-dimensional calculations; pretty much treating everything as simply supported beams and columns, which in itself added to the safety factor. He used standard scantling tables and recommended loadings from the usual sources. It was good conservative structural design.
> 
> His steel boats were usually (but not always) somewhat 'back engineered'. He designed most of his boats for wood, and then used the calculated loadings from the wood design to size the steel frames and skin. Because the framing and plating was heavier on the steel boats, they typically had less ballast and sail area. As compromse, at least on the smaller designs (under 40 feet), in order to keep the weight of the steel structure and plating in a reasonable range, the safety factors were reduced and so the wooden boats were usually designed a little stronger and stiffer than the steel boats.
> 
> Charlie did build a few wooden boats, but he never actually built a steel boat with his own hands. While Charlie designed a lot of steel boats, he only owned one steel boat and that was near the end of his life. He did not keep it very long.
> 
> I think if Charlie was still alive he would probably design the way that Bob does, meaning very careful calculations performed using computer software to make the calculations a lot easier and more precise.
> 
> Jeff


Charlie's boats are simple and practical single chine hulls with a midship section and deadrise very similar to mine. They have a lot in common with my boats. He doesn't draw super complex and hard to build shapes, then tell his clients "Achieving that shape is your problem." His boats are simple and practical, the way cruising boats should be. They are easy to build. 
I also did all my calculations on paper, as affordable computers were not available back then.
Time and decades of experience are far more accurate predictors than theory.


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## bobperry

I am not Batman. Batman is my mother in law's cousin. His real name is Bill Anderson and he is from Walla Walla Washington. His screen name is Adam West. I chose that avatar because I liked it. You can find pics of me in many places.

Not at all sure why you should care. But the gene pool is healthy tonight with the arrival of Drake Shaw Perry. I see big things ahead for Drake. I am a very happy grand parent.


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## outbound

Isn't it grand being a grandpa. It means you survived all your prior foolishness and now have an excuse to behave foolishly with a child as of yet unspoiled by this deprived world. Congrats


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## bobperry

Out:
I'm not sure yet. I'm going to have to figure this out.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Frankie is only perfect for the use for which she was designed; day sailing around the bay.


Just like BS Yachs are only perfect for two things: losing your mind in the squalid loneliness and anger of a cold steel tank, or losing your small nest egg on a rusting hulk and hitting stuff.

I prefer sailing.

Brent, your boats are to sailboats what these are to sports cars:










Functional? Sure. Maintenance? Minimal. And just think of all the gas you'll save and how small your footprint will be!


----------



## kimbottles

Brent Swain said:


> Bob
> Could you post the stability curve for Frankie?
> 
> Frankie is only perfect for the use for which she was designed; day sailing around the bay. For the far flung cruising mentioned at the beginning of this debate, she is as useless as a one legged man trying to kick ass.
> A low income cruiser could easily build a proper cruising boat and have a circumnavigation or two behind him, in far less time than it would take him to even begin paying for a boat like that. Frankie could never sail enough miles to make up for the time and money she wasted. She could never win, in terms of miles per year spent on her.


Actually Mr. Swain you have that one wrong. The Francis Lee was engineered by one of the best marine engineers in the business Tim Nolan with help from the excellent Jim Franken.

She is engineered to easily and safely sail offshore. She far exceeds ABS standards. Her considerable speed would just add to her safety.

As far as wasting money on her, once again you are wrong. It was very easy for me to pay for her and she will easily be worth her cost many times over.....to ME.

She would not be worth it to YOU but that's OK, she was not built for you.

Stick to what you know, your boats......

and please refrain from commenting on vessels and people of whom you know nothing. You know nothing about the Francis Lee and you know nothing about me or my resources.

Thank you.


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## outbound

Think Kim got it just right. We buy and build boats just for us. Paulo at one time hit on me fairly hard that I spent my hard earned money building a boat that was originally designed a decade ago. He implied given it did not incorporate design features such as ultra wide stern, twin rudders and hard chines it was foolish to spend so much money when the sums involved would have allowed purchase of the latest creation. What he failed to recognize is fundamentally the same thing Brent fails to consider. The boat is about the owner (for Bob the client). A successful boat meets the purpose the owner will put it to and leaves him/her smiling as they row away. I wanted something that sailed fast. Fast is different for a buoy racer, than for a passage maker. Fast is different for a full crew, or professional singlehanded racer than a mom and pop. Fast is different for someone thinking about a "days work" than a sailing polar. Similarly comfort, ease of maintenance, durability, safety and like concerns are different depending what purpose the owner has in mind. I'm sure Kim got it just right for him. He had Bob to work with. It's a beautiful craft. Would I want Kim's boat for my purpose? No. I feel I got it just right for my purpose. That may change when I see the voyager version Bob drew but I think not as I like aft cockpits and traditional looking houses.
?Always wondered why lapstrake isn't employed in metal boats? Admittedly would involve a lot more welding but would allow more complex shapes and provide rigidity so fewer or no longitudinal frames would be needed. ?Any reason besides additional labor?


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## bobperry

Out:
There is a guy in Norway with a boat building Co-op. He is building a big alu Colin Archer with lapstrake hull. It's quite stunning. There is an extensive thread on SA/CA.


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## bobperry

"Frankie is only perfect for the use for which she was designed;"

The more I read that line the stranger it becomes. BS intended it as a slam but I read it and think, "Well,,,,of course." I think I'll just take it as a compliment.

Why thank you BS. I'm glad you noticed.


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## SloopJonB

Brent and Paulo both have the same essential attitude - the boats THEY like for THEIR purposes are the only right boat - anything else is stupid or misinformed or backwards.

Must be a boring place to be.

I much prefer the attitude of a guy who just bought Mayan - David Crosby's old Alden schooner - a big schooner for taking the family out cruising and an old Moore 24 for crazy daysailing fun.

It would appear that both of those boats would be stupid or ignorant to both BS & P.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
I am very proud of the diversity of my work. From the Baba 30 to ICON to FRANCIS to the FT10m it is really hard to find a type of boat I have not designed. Anyone who tries to put my work in a box or to characterize it in two sentences is a true, ignorant fool.

Jon:
Beau who bought Crosby's schooner also own a 40', long skinny cold molded boat built in the UK. I think they are called SPIRIT. It is an amazingly beautiful boat but his wife wanted a boat that was more comfy. So he did the sensible thing. He bought another boat. Beau likes boats.


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## bobperry

Tonight I feel very proud of my work. But it was fun work.
Here is one of my top two best designs. He's holding another one of mine (well, it's really his but I had a minor role in it). We'll have to see how he turns out. I am not worried at all.


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## smackdaddy

Beautiful kids. Well done Bob.


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## blt2ski

That line of BS's something to the effect, frankie is only good for what she is designed for......well, that was SUPPOSED to be a bash......but looks like a WEL HIDDEN compliment to me. 

When I did a lot more designing of landscapes, I too never did the same design, nor the same materials EVERY time. ALL of my clients like bob, wanted something a bit different. May have been colors of the pavers, wall block, pattern of the above, types of plants, amount of lawn vs beds vs ___________.

I would consider that line by bs to be a compliment myself. 

I had a good day in Tacoma, playing with daffodils and putting on a boat......not sure BS would understand that fun either.....

Then below is a copy and paste from an FB page of what my eldest are up to. Youngest tagged along this time for some vacation........

Marty

United States Boomerang Team
Like This Page · 6 hrs · Edited


The 2014 World Boomerang Cup begins today! It's 5 a.m. Monday (Perth time), just 30 minutes away from breakfast. Today is Team Day 1, which includes Accuracy, Super Catch, 30M Relay, Trick Catch and one added event, the Endurance Relay! The events will be held on the fields at Guildford Grammar, 11 Terrace Road in Perth, Australia, and are free and open to the public. Let's cheer on both our US squads as they head into competition! Good luck, Team Rad Evolution: James Stickney, Logan Broadbent, Richard Bower, Daniel Bower, Billy Brazelton and Adam Stankiewicz; and to Legion of Boom: Betsylew Miale-Gix, Will Gix, Brian Wissner, George Essig, Steve Kavanaugh and Kenny Barr! —


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## outbound

Thanks Bob for the heads up. Remarkable a design derived from Scandinavian life boats built in wood is transformed into a modern creation built in Al. Interesting to see the evolution of that style over 200y.


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## bobperry

Marty:
Boomerang team? I'd like to see that. When I was a kid in Australian w were always trying to make our own boomerangs. They never worked. I did much better making bull roarers. You'll have to Google it. It's too weird to explain. But mine worked very well.


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## blt2ski

Bob,

I'll have to have them give you a demo some day after they are back on about may1. They have been US national champs between them IIRC 5 or 6 times out of the last 7 or 8 years. Daniel won something like 3 yrs in a row along with 2 yrs before, then Richard won 2 yrs in a row with someone else winning last year. Daniel won the JR title in 02, also setting a long distance record of 120 or so meters. That is how far out it goes, then returns with in a 5-10M set of cones coming back. If the rang returns to the out side of either cone, the throw does not count.

Still wondering how things have gone, should be on day 2 if not 3 by now, NO results..............I'm sure not as bad as the news of when and what you new grandchild is, but still nerve racking for the dad to know how they are doing in the team events, which they won in 2010. 

Not sure what a bull roarer is, But "stick" is a rang that goes out, but does not return! Used only for hunting purposes.

Marty


----------



## djodenda

Congratulations, Bob!

I like Marty's kids. They are an interesting bunch..


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## bobperry

Thanks Denda.


Life is thread drift.


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## shank32095

Bob,

First congrats on the little guy! A while back you commented on obtaining stability calculations on my new boat Crusoe. I have been unable to contact the builder but maybe you can take a quick look at this informative piece I pulled up on the web on stability curves. Crusoe is 25 tonnes draws 3 meters and the keel ballast is 4.5 tonnes. Length 17 meters and the beam somewhat narrow at 4 meters. (A couple pics below). Question is where would you place the boat between the A to D per the article below.

Understanding monohull sailboat stability curves | M.B. Marsh Marine Design



















Thanks as I am clueless to calculations such as this.

TS


----------



## bobperry

Shank:
I can't connect to that link.
If you asked me to guess at your limit of positive stability I would guess that it is 123 degrees. That's a fine number. By the way, I am really good at guessing these numbers.

I'll see if I can connect to that link again.


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## shank32095

Bob, Here it is again

Understanding monohull sailboat stability curves | M.B. Marsh Marine Design


----------



## bobperry

Shank:
That is a pretty generic article. It even refers to itself that way. Your CB boat doesn't fit any of those types. I'd stick with my guesstimate until you can get in touch with your designer. He really owes you that data. As a designer I have to provide technical backup up for my owners. I do it all the time. It's often a PITA but who else can they go to?


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## shank32095

Bob, If you are able to pull up the article what was really interesting to me was the reply from Andrew Troup because Crusoe was designed to explore in Antarctic waters. The flat bottom portion of the hull was 25 mm. steel plate and with the keel up the idea was be able to sit on ice. Not my ideal use of ice but very interesting indeed.


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## bobperry

Shank:
That's 1" steel plate!
The biggest effect that would for your use is that it would put a lot of weight low to help your VCG.

I'll go back to the link and see if I can find that reply.

Ok I read that reply. Not sure I agree with all of it. But I agree and have for some time warned people of being too confident of static stability studies. They just don't have much in common with the real world conditions in which the boat would be subject to being rolled over.

As for pulling the CB up in survival conditions I have no experience with that so I can't comment. I understand the principle though and it sounds plausible. In your case raising the CB would not have the adverse affect, talked about in the link, of raising your VCG. That's a big plus for you. I don't know who this guy is but I did not read anything there I thought was "wrong". I like his dynamic approach to stability. On the face of it your boat has the best of both worlds.


----------



## shank32095

Thanks Bob, Coming from you that means something. I am a very cautious sailor and with my wife and sons on board limiting any room for error is the deal.


----------



## bobperry

You are welcome Shank. It's only my opinion but I have been thinking about these things really hard for a long time.


----------



## Brent Swain

shank32095 said:


> Bob,
> 
> First congrats on the little guy! A while back you commented on obtaining stability calculations on my new boat Crusoe. I have been unable to contact the builder but maybe you can take a quick look at this informative piece I pulled up on the web on stability curves. Crusoe is 25 tonnes draws 3 meters and the keel ballast is 4.5 tonnes. Length 17 meters and the beam somewhat narrow at 4 meters. (A couple pics below). Question is where would you place the boat between the A to D per the article below.
> 
> Understanding monohull sailboat stability curves | M.B. Marsh Marine Design
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks as I am clueless to calculations such as this.
> 
> TS


The shape of my hulls is much closer to hull B, with a similar AVS. That is why I avoided excessive beam .


----------



## Brent Swain

kimbottles said:


> Actually Mr. Swain you have that one wrong. The Francis Lee was engineered by one of the best marine engineers in the business Tim Nolan with help from the excellent Jim Franken.
> 
> She is engineered to easily and safely sail offshore. She far exceeds ABS standards. Her considerable speed would just add to her safety.
> 
> As far as wasting money on her, once again you are wrong. It was very easy for me to pay for her and she will easily be worth her cost many times over.....to ME.
> 
> She would not be worth it to YOU but that's OK, she was not built for you.
> 
> Stick to what you know, your boats......
> 
> and please refrain from commenting on vessels and people of whom you know nothing. You know nothing about the Francis Lee and you know nothing about me or my resources.
> 
> Thank you.


If God, Buddha , Jesus, Mohammed, ABS, and Allah all decreed that a wooden boat is as strong and safe as steel one, in an open ocean collision with a container, they would all be just as wrong!
ABS approves many boats which are a fraction the strength and safety of the average home built steel boat, especially mine.
No boat engineered without lifelines is properly engineered for safety offshore. You should definitely follow Bob's advice on that point. Without proper lifelines, she is just a big harbour daysailor, and an unsafe one at that..
My reference was to the original question in this debate, which had nothing do with wooden boats, or babies. 
When some don't understand the subject, they try to change the subject.
That is an admission that they don't understand the subject.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Think Kim got it just right. We buy and build boats just for us. Paulo at one time hit on me fairly hard that I spent my hard earned money building a boat that was originally designed a decade ago. He implied given it did not incorporate design features such as ultra wide stern, twin rudders and hard chines it was foolish to spend so much money when the sums involved would have allowed purchase of the latest creation. What he failed to recognize is fundamentally the same thing Brent fails to consider. The boat is about the owner (for Bob the client). A successful boat meets the purpose the owner will put it to and leaves him/her smiling as they row away. I wanted something that sailed fast. Fast is different for a buoy racer, than for a passage maker. Fast is different for a full crew, or professional singlehanded racer than a mom and pop. Fast is different for someone thinking about a "days work" than a sailing polar. Similarly comfort, ease of maintenance, durability, safety and like concerns are different depending what purpose the owner has in mind. I'm sure Kim got it just right for him. He had Bob to work with. It's a beautiful craft. Would I want Kim's boat for my purpose? No. I feel I got it just right for my purpose. That may change when I see the voyager version Bob drew but I think not as I like aft cockpits and traditional looking houses.
> ?Always wondered why lapstrake isn't employed in metal boats? Admittedly would involve a lot more welding but would allow more complex shapes and provide rigidity so fewer or no longitudinal frames would be needed. ?Any reason besides additional labor?


The original question was not about speed in round the buoys racers, and big day sailors like Frankie.
Lapstrake would be a huge waste of time and money. You can easily get well rounded chineless bows and sterns, giving them the same strength as you would get by making them lapstrake, with a fraction the time , expense and potential welding distortion , as my boats clearly demonstrate. Radiusing the chine amidships is not all that hard .
It takes me about ten minutes per longitudinal to put them in. I use no more than ten. It wouldn't make sense to spend the huge amount of extra time and welding to go lapstrake, to save the tiny amount of time it takes to put logitudinals in.
You definitely got it right on, when you say fast is different for singlehanded ocean cruisers. Some racing boats ,which slow down when tacking around the buoys, have been said to have "Excess directional stability"!
There is no such thing as 'Excess directional stability" for a single handed ocean cruiser. The more the better. Good directional stability in a cruiser means not having to reduce sail to maintain self steering.


----------



## Brent Swain

blt2ski said:


> That line of BS's something to the effect, frankie is only good for what she is designed for......well, that was SUPPOSED to be a bash......but looks like a WEL HIDDEN compliment to me.
> 
> When I did a lot more designing of landscapes, I too never did the same design, nor the same materials EVERY time. ALL of my clients like bob, wanted something a bit different. May have been colors of the pavers, wall block, pattern of the above, types of plants, amount of lawn vs beds vs ___________.
> 
> I would consider that line by bs to be a compliment myself.
> 
> I had a good day in Tacoma, playing with daffodils and putting on a boat......not sure BS would understand that fun either.....
> 
> Then below is a copy and paste from an FB page of what my eldest are up to. Youngest tagged along this time for some vacation........
> 
> Marty


I get a kick out of that thing called "Landscapers fantasy!" Its where they make a complex, artsy fartsy, winding path, on the assumption that everyone will take a long and winding route , just to stay on the path, if that is what the landscaper decrees. Instead, they end up with a well worn path, the shortest route across the lawn, as they ignore an impractical path.

Some boat designs are done the same way. Real practical cruisers ignore the impractical parts, and do what works best, leaving the impractical ones on the beach, going to work,. stocking shelves for decades, to pay for impractical boats and their gear, trying to figure out how the practical ones got out cruising so quickly and affordably, while decreeing that they are "Doing it all wrong!".


----------



## Brent Swain

The slope of the front of my cabin is slightly less than that of the Frankie, and very similar to other Bob designs.


----------



## bobperry

"The slope of the front of my cabin is slightly less than that of the Frankie, and very similar to other Bob designs."

So what Brent. That is the only thing your decks and mine have in common. Don't fool yourself.

How about posting some deck lines? Maybe I'll post the deck lines for FRANCIS and raise the bar a bit. It's a cool drawing. Give me a few minutes. I'll be right back. Just finishing Mahler's 3rd.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> I am not Batman. Batman is my mother in law's cousin. His real name is Bill Anderson and he is from Walla Walla Washington. His screen name is Adam West. I chose that avatar because I liked it. You can find pics of me in many places.
> 
> ]


Some of your posts sound like something right out of the "Batroom!"


----------



## bobperry

Sorry. I got distracted when my wife called me. Two grey whales were swimming past the shack about 120' off the beach. It's a awesome sight. My young dog goes nuts.


Ok, this is a typical deck lines plan. This of course is FRANCIS and it is quite a simple deck. In the old days you would have to loft this on the floor full size and make your patterns from the lofting Then we graduated to full size patterns plotted from the computer on my plotter machine in 24" wide strips. This is why you don;t see a lot of dimensions on the drawing. With full size patterns, dimensions are redundant. Now we just send a file to a company who CNC cuts the templates for the plug. Or, we convert the 2D deck lines to a 3D model and have a 5 axis machine cut the exact deck, male or female model from foam and that becomes our mold. But without a drawing like this any designer is fooling themselves if they think they are designing a deck or even remotely controlling the shapes of a deck. I apologize that the resolution is not better but this drawing is 6' long. This is what a designer does. He or she designs.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> After the highlighted first sentence your post becomes ludicrous Brent.
> 
> A Z06 Corvette would also make a lousy world cruising sailboat but "Is perfect for the use for which it was designed".


The original question was a boat for a sailing version of a cruising "off road" vehicle. What he got was people advocating the use of the sailing equivalent of a Corvette, for off road (Logging road ) use!


----------



## bobperry

Life is thread drift Brent. Get used to it. Besides being "off the road" capable has zero to do with looking crude. Crude is crude on and off the road. There are lots of great looking steel boats. I'd like to see more of them here.

The Mercedes answer to the Land Rover is a beautiful car.

My blog is going wild today, over 110 hits. I made the signature thang bigger and I posted the address on Facebook.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Yep, you could say that.
> 
> Here's proof that steel hulls do not have to be ugly. This is a MacClear and Harris design.


Looks like the Angatyre design here in Comox. She has a very high gloss finish on her; which you can see your face in from a long ways off. She has a very expensive rig.( Contrary to disinformation posted here) and new Furlex furlers on main , genny and staysail. She has a well built hydraulic anchor winch ( Chuck ,the builder, did hydraulics for logging companies for decades)
She has minimal interior and no spray foam ,just a rough anti condensation coating. This lets you see the condition of the steel inside, anywhere.
Tony Lyons could put a beautiful interior in easily and quickly. I don't see the for sale sign on her any more. ( nor on Silas Crosby,which I am told, sold months ago)
I saw her listed in Will's Marine brokers at $175,000 CDN yesterday. A call to Ocean Pacific's yard in Campbell River, where she spent months, will probably confirm that they spent almost that much on her recently, and possibly more. They may have spent that much on the paint job alone.


----------



## shank32095

Brent, Enough already, why can you not just lighten up. I live in Bahia Brazil and see my fair share of dumpster diving on a daily basis. People don't do this because they want to, they do it to survive. They don't do it so they can brag about how they have a bunch of time to hang on the beach while all the successful people are at work earning an income that will allow them to live their individual perception of a good life. So be it that there are folks out there with limited funds who would like to sail but can only afford one of your boats built of refuse. You have grasp a very, very small portion of the market that don't care if their boats look like crap and have much more time than money/job so as to spend attempting to finish a boat you tack together in a weekend. Your clients are a really small percentage of sailors yet you continually rant that anyone that wishes to purchase an expensive beautiful vessel is ignorant and should adhere to the gospel of BS. Just barely below the surface of your rants there lies a thick layer of obvious envy towards those more accomplished than you and those with more resources. Fact is there are many people like myself that have worked hard and smart and we think nothing of throwing down a half million for a vessel that makes us happy. Personally I would not take one of your BS boats if you gave it to me but then again I am amazed how much money someone else might pay for such a boat, it amounts to infinitely too much ! Different strokes for different folks. I appears to me that everyone on this blog, especially you, would be served well by just sharing information and not condemnation.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Life is thread drift Brent. Get used to it. Besides being "off the road" capable has zero to do with looking crude. Crude is crude on and off the road. There are lots of great looking steel boats. I'd like to see more of them here.
> 
> The Mercedes answer to the Land Rover is a beautiful car.
> 
> My blog is going wild today, over 110 hits. I made the signature thang bigger and I posted the address on Facebook.


Bob. Check the origamiboats site. You will seesome extremely beautiful Brentboats there.


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## bobperry

Brent I have checked your origami site and I have not seen a single boat I would call beautiful. I see some I would call "almost ok" but most are cobbled together amateur efforts that do not qualify as "yachts" in my book. For the most part they are very crude boats. OK, I admit that I have seen a couple that looked pretty good. I think your 34' model. I could be mistaken. But I credit that entirely to the builder. I have never seen anything from you that would indicate you had a hand in their aesthetics.

I know there is a market for them. I admire the fact that they work for some people. You have your market and I have mine. That's fine. I will never go after your clients on a personal level as you have mine on countless occasions. But you do not produce design work and that shows in the boats. It's all left in the hands of the builder. If in fact you do produce design work for them show us, a lines plan, deck lines, finished joinery layout. All designers do it.

I believe I will go run the vacuum. I like a spotless house.


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## Brent Swain

shank32095 said:


> Brent, Enough already, why can you not just lighten up. I live in Bahia Brazil and see my fair share of dumpster diving on a daily basis. People don't do this because they want to, they do it to survive. They don't do it so they can brag about how they have a bunch of time to hang on the beach while all the successful people are at work earning an income that will allow them to live their individual perception of a good life. So be it that there are folks out there with limited funds who would like to sail but can only afford one of your boats built of refuse. You have grasp a very, very small portion of the market that don't care if their boats look like crap and have much more time than money/job so as to spend attempting to finish a boat you tack together in a weekend. Your clients are a really small percentage of sailors yet you continually rant that anyone that wishes to purchase an expensive beautiful vessel is ignorant and should adhere to the gospel of BS. Just barely below the surface of your rants there lies a thick layer of obvious envy towards those more accomplished than you and those with more resources. Fact is there are many people like myself that have worked hard and smart and we think nothing of throwing down a half million for a vessel that makes us happy. Personally I would not take one of your BS boats if you gave it to me but then again I am amazed how much money someone else might pay for such a boat, it amounts to infinitely too much ! Different strokes for different folks. I appears to me that everyone on this blog, especially you, would be served well by just sharing information and not condemnation.


Man what a crock! There is not a person on the planet I would change places with! My clients are those who use their boats for cruising full time, a way of life, not as status symbols and marina queens.Sure, I had some high paying jobs, which I could have spent a lifetime doing, making lots of money and gathering consumer baggage ( wrecking the environment and the future of Bobs kids, and grandkids, etc.). I quit as soon as I had enough for a year cruising .Took under a month. Do I wish I had continued working ? Not a chance!
I have turned down every offer of work I have been offered lately.
No one ever laid on their death bed saying "I wish I had worked more!"
I share information every time it is asked for ( far more relevant to the original question here, to which Bob and Smack have contributed little or nothing in the way of steel boat knowledge ). I don't let disinformation, which can screw people who don't have a lot of money, out of their cruising dreams, go unchallenged. I don't let elitists discourage low income people, who CAN go cruising, and enjoy the cruising life as much as any millionaire.
The resulting contempt of such territorial, rich elitists, is a sincere form of flattery, in my opinion.

I have never had a bank loan, and never paid a penny in direct bank interest. I have very rarely, since my mid 20s, had to wake up to an alarm clock, get up and go to work when I didn't feel like it. I have not had to grovel to anyone .What is being suggested here is that I am "envious" of those who spend their lives doing so, often working at jobs they hate, sucking up to bosses they hate.
I set sail, single handed in my first boat, on my first Pacific crossing, at the ripe old age of 23.
What is being suggested is that I am "envious" of those who took took much later in life to get there, and had to put up with decades of crap to get there.
When I see a morbidly obese, bossy woman, I think "If that is not one of the cuties who turned me down decades ago , most of them probably look and act like her." What is being suggested here is that I am "Envious" of the "Lucky " guys who married them.
When I wake up in some beautiful anchorage, when I please, and spend my entire day as I please, doing exactly what I feel like doing, it is being suggested that I am "envious" of those who spend most of their lives being told what to do.
Many people buy the disinformation that ones happiness is directly porportionate to the amount of junk one possesses, failing to grasp the idea that there is a limit on how much one can own before it begins to own you. When it doesn't make them any happier, they simply drown themselves in more junk. It is being suggested that I am 'Envious " of people with this form of mental illness.
Can't think of what I would buy if I won the lottery I have everythign I want already.


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## bobperry

Stand back everyone, I think we may have a personal problem here.

Brent calm down. Take a deep breath. Maybe you should consider a drink. Something.

But for you and only you I present the crock of the evening award. More and more personal attacks. Words are all you have and you don't have many. So take this here award and go home proud. You must have quite a collection of these by now.


Life is thread drift.


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## shank32095

Brent, Who ask you to be someone else? Just try to open your brain to the fact that the majority of people don't buy into your rap.


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## JonEisberg

bobperry said:


> Stand back everyone, I think we may have a personal problem here.
> 
> Brent calm down. Take a deep breath. Maybe you should consider a drink. Something.
> 
> But for you and only you I present the crock of the evening award. More and more personal attacks. Words are all you have and you don't have many. So take this here award and go home proud. You must have quite a collection of these by now.
> 
> 
> Life is thread drift.


Bob, in my 15+ years of hanging out on various sailing forums, I do believe dt/tillerman/Doctor Electron was the only other individual who came remotely close to BS in his desperation to convince the audience how absolutely wonderful his own life was...


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> When some don't understand the subject, they try to change the subject.
> That is an admission that they don't understand the subject.


Like you and math....and design....and truth...


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## outbound

Brent
Some of us like work. We help others and get satisfaction from using our skills and the blessings god gave us.
Some of us live very differently in different phases phases of our lives. We pack different lives and different personas into our time on earth.
Some us enjoy modern comforts as we live on our boats. Hydraulic heat with multiple zones,AC,unlimited fresh water,tv,internet connectivity, great sound system, freezer and frig with wind and solar so little need to liberate hydrocarbons.
Some of us like to travel in a boat that performs,is safe in weather and is beautiful inside and out.
Some of us like to haul when convenient not worrying delayed maintenance will imperil the structural integrity of our homes. Sure like you we need to keep our bottoms clean and zincs fresh but modern materials and diving makes for acceptable intervals.
I like metal boats. I nearly built one and for my " last " boat the decision was between a Boreal or a Outbound. I think for the home builder wanting steel both on a performance,financial ( resale), aesethic, maintenance and quality of life basis the prospective sailor would be well served to look at designs other than yours given your thinking and attitude are clearly frozen in one time,one space and an inflexible view of the world.Please stop degrading yourself by trying to degrade others.


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## djodenda

Drifting...

Bob:
The blog update helped.. Not much was going on there for a while, it was good to visit again..

Do the dogs see the whales first, or smell them?


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## outbound

Whales are amazing. See them up in N. E. during the summer and saw some down in caribe a couple of weeks ago on a transport for a friend. Never tire of it.
Brent haven't hit a whale yet. Only time I was scared was up to Nova Scotia. Was on a 42 foot Novi hull. Skipper put us in middle of pod of moms and babies. Must of been over a dozen. Wife and I were too overwhelmed by the beauty of the time to even get any snaps.
Brent you have any stories of your boats hitting the great white whale while gps boats were sunk by a fluke?


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I don't see the for sale sign on her any more. ( nor on Silas Crosby,which I am told, sold months ago)


Silas Crosby is still for sale. It says so on Steve's site. Poor guy - he can't _give_ that thing away.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Bob. Check the origamiboats site. You will seesome extremely beautiful Brentboats there.


Where? I've scoured your site and have only seen one boat that I thought was halfway decent looking (the aluminum one).



Brent Swain said:


> Man what a crock! There is not a person on the planet I would change places with! My clients are those who use their boats for *cruising full time*, a way of life,....


You keep using this term. But I don't think it means what you think it means. Being stuck on an old boat in the same stretch of water year after year is not "cruising full time". It's just being a hermit on a rusty old boat. Big difference.

You don't "cruise full time". You just live alone on a steel boat and eat oily cheese. There's really not much that's attractive in that...for anyone.


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## djodenda

I went to Brent's website, with the intention of picking what I thought was his best-looking boat.

But it's hard, because many of the pictures of the boats are blurry/low resolution, and really don't show the overall boat well.

I very much do like the colors of some of the hulls, though... The red and green look really good...


I'm not trying to be sarcastic or negative, Brent.. I wish you had some better pictures posted.. You would help your cause to have some nice pictures of your boats under sail.


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## bobperry

Jon:
I agree with you.

I read Brent's posts on steel build details when they are cogent and to the point as they often are. I give him a "like" when I learn something, as I often do. But the angry, personal attacks are just plain weird. There are lots of ways to enjoy sailing. Brent's way is just one small way.


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## Osprey 26

Plastic fantastic or Iron.
All good for about six knots of speed.
What was that argument 450 or plus pages about?


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## smackdaddy

Osprey 26 said:


> Plastic fantastic or Iron.
> All good for about six knots of speed.
> What was that argument 450 or plus pages about?


Fukushima Debris you knucklehead!


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## mitiempo

I agree Bob, let's see more good looking steel boats. Like this one.





























45' Waterline built in 1995. Currently listed by Swiftsure in Seattle 
Swiftsure Yachts (Seattle, WA)


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## bobperry

Miti:
That's a beauty. That's what I'm talking about.


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## bobperry

Denda:
I think usually the dogs hear the whales first, That blow sound really carries and at that low frequency there is no other sound out here that sounds like that. I think if they are upwind the dogs may smell them first. There's no smell quite like that here either. But they often cruise the beach less that 100 yards out and they swim at a fast walking pace so you can walk along with them. Then they sometimes stop in our cove and just swirl around and play often for half an hour. Sometimes they stick their head straight up out of the water about 6'. It's very amazing. They will be around for about another month then it's off to Alaska. They have been here now for about three weeks. I'll see if I can post a pic.

Here's a shot. It's not very good but you can see the whale and you can see the dogs. The whale is the black hump in the water.


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## Osprey 26

bobperry said:


> Miti:
> That's a beauty. That's what I'm talking about.


All stressed out for no reason at all.

Everyting is beautiful.
My credentials. Stressed out to the max, or was I?


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## mitiempo

Osprey 26 said:


> Everything is beautiful.


Obviously you haven't spent much time on the Origami site.


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## bobperry

I think I can hear the MOODY BLUES playing in the background at Osprey's house.

Or is that PEARLS BEFORE SWINE?


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## djodenda

bobperry said:


> Denda:
> I think usually the dogs hear the whales first, That blow sound really carries and at that low frequency there is no other sound out here that sounds like that. I think if they are upwind the dogs may smell them first. There's no smell quite like that here either. But they often cruise the beach less that 100 yards out and they swim at a fast walking pace so you can walk along with them. Then they sometimes stop in our cove and just swirl around and play often for half an hour. Sometimes they stick their head straight up out of the water about 6'. It's very amazing. They will be around for about another month then it's off to Alaska. They have been here now for about three weeks. I'll see if I can post a pic.
> 
> Here's a shot. It's not very good but you can see the whale and you can see the dogs. The whale is the black hump in the water.


Beautiful, Bob...

Been in the PNW for 9 years now, and have sighted Orcas about 10 times and Gray whales twice off Hat Island.

We are lucky.


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## bobperry

Denda:
We occasionally get Orca in our bay but not often. Wish we did. My wife tells a story about her sister being out in the canoe and being surrounded by them while the family watched from the beach.

Yep we are lucky. Not sure about the pack of coyotes that ran through the area last night around 8pm though. I was glad my cat was in.

This shot show two greys blowing a bit far off the beach for my casting. 6 lb. test is probably not going to do the job anyway.


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## SloopJonB

Ya need one of these on your deck Bob.


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## bobperry

Jon:
Nope. I'm more of a catch and release kind of guy.


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## outbound

Japanese just re affirmed they will continue to hunt whales for food. Don't understand this. Very civilized country doing something so uncivilized. 
Amazing picture Bob. Time to take out the Spey rod. We have pilot whales that live ~2m from the house. Know it's spring when they show up and the seals leave. Last year the seals didn't leave so the great whites showed up.
Seals ruin the striper fishing so don't like when they stay.


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## SloopJonB

Japan is a very POLITE society - they do many uncivilized things.

They still deny their responsibility for WW II atrocities for example.


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## outbound

Dad did logistics planning in WW2. Would not talk about it much. Best I could gather got dropped off on S. Pacific island with another grunt ( he was master sarg. at the time). Scouted, radioed and then got picked up when Allied forces liberated the island. Said he saw the Japanese do horrific things to the native islanders. Ended up hating them more then the Germans although he saw some of their horrors working for Wild Bill after the war. I got to know first generation here - much remorse, nice people - can't generalize.


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## smackdaddy

outbound said:


> Dad did logistics planning in WW2. Would not talk about it much. Best I could gather got dropped off on S. Pacific island with another grunt ( he was master sarg. at the time). Scouted, radioed and then got picked up when Allied forces liberated the island. Said he saw the Japanese do horrific things to the native islanders. Ended up hating them more then the Germans although he saw some of their horrors working for Wild Bill after the war. I got to know first generation here - much remorse, nice people - can't generalize.


I was in the Peace Corps and lived on Guadalcanal. So I know the stories firsthand (e.g. - Jacob Vouza). The interesting thing was we PC volunteers worked side-by-side with our equivalent Japanese volunteers (young people just like us).

We had a blast hanging out together. They were sweet, fun people.

I was also there for the 50th anniversary of the battle - when veterans from both sides came in for the ceremonies. Now THAT was interesting...former enemies coming together. For the most part, by-gones were by-gones. There were shared stories and tears - and just great old men letting it go.

It was pretty cool.


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## bobperry

My dear old Dad was a WWII vet from New Guinea.
He wouldn't even let me buy him a Sony TV.
I'm sure he would not ride in my Outback.

He was pissed that I was bringing him take out dinners from Uwajimaya, the big, fancy Japanese super market a mile from his house.

" Iwo Jima! Iwo Jima! I'm not going in that Iwo Jima store!"
He was a tough old bird and he never forgot and he never forgave.


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## Brent Swain

mitiempo said:


> I agree Bob, let's see more good looking steel boats. Like this one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 45' Waterline built in 1995. Currently listed by Swiftsure in Seattle
> Swiftsure Yachts (Seattle, WA)


w

Whats the price tag on that one? How any decades of cruising freedom does the average wage earner have to give up for that kind of "style over substance"? Will the joys of having that kind of interior, for a short remaining portion of one's life, be more fun than spending the same amount of money playing full time, for decades? Is posting pictures of a new, unlived in interior, as a comparison to one which has been lived in for decades ,an attempt to mislead.
Are would be cruisers who are gullible enough to buy it, likely to spend as much of their lives cruising, as someone with more practical, utilitarian priorities? Will they have more fun than those who took the "low cost, what works" route, instead of the "work most of your lives away, for the priorities of others" route?

Comparing new boats with brand new interiors and bilges, or recently completely refit and repainted, with those of boats which have been used and lived aboard for decades, and actually gone a lot of places, is deliberately misleading (ie. lying?)


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## outbound

What a beautiful boat. Be a pleasure to cruise in her.


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## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> *practical, utilitarian* priorities


Is that where "Proletarian" was derived from? 

We get it Brent, we really, really do - you don't like nice stuff.

It's good that you are satisfied with your minimalist, utilitarian lifestyle. I think we all strive to be satisfied with our lives.

Some, or most of us require more than you do in order to be satisfied - more beauty in our lives and possessions, more satisfaction and accomplishment from our life's work, more family relationships etc. etc.

Not everyone out there aspires to the life of a minimalist loner, very few do in fact.

P.S. I don't see any reason why one of your boats couldn't look about as good as that Waterline - it doesn't take any more work to make something look good as to make it look ugly or plain - all it takes is some artistry and the will.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Shank:
> I can't connect to that link.
> If you asked me to guess at your limit of positive stability I would guess that it is 123 degrees. That's a fine number. By the way, I am really good at guessing these numbers.
> 
> I'll see if I can connect to that link again.


On BD.net, Tad Roberts calculated the AVS on my 36 at 165 degrees, and Jim calculated it at 175 degrees ,posted on the origamiboats site.
Bob claims that 123 degrees is "a fine number",but 165 and 175 degrees is "unstable?"
Ya sure , Bob!


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## Brent Swain

shank32095 said:


> Brent, Enough already, why can you not just lighten up. I live in Bahia Brazil and see my fair share of dumpster diving on a daily basis. People don't do this because they want to, they do it to survive. They don't do it so they can brag about how they have a bunch of time to hang on the beach while all the successful people are at work earning an income that will allow them to live their individual perception of a good life. So be it that there are folks out there with limited funds who would like to sail but can only afford one of your boats built of refuse. You have grasp a very, very small portion of the market that don't care if their boats look like crap and have much more time than money/job so as to spend attempting to finish a boat you tack together in a weekend. Your clients are a really small percentage of sailors yet you continually rant that anyone that wishes to purchase an expensive beautiful vessel is ignorant and should adhere to the gospel of BS. Just barely below the surface of your rants there lies a thick layer of obvious envy towards those more accomplished than you and those with more resources. Fact is there are many people like myself that have worked hard and smart and we think nothing of throwing down a half million for a vessel that makes us happy. Personally I would not take one of your BS boats if you gave it to me but then again I am amazed how much money someone else might pay for such a boat, it amounts to infinitely too much ! Different strokes for different folks. I appears to me that everyone on this blog, especially you, would be served well by just sharing information and not condemnation.


I share the information that one can cruise without needing a lot of money, for which elitists, and those selling overpriced and inferior boats and equipment , are constantly attacking me.
Those who use resourcefulness and innovation instead of money are probably a tiny percentage of the marina queen crowd you meet in marinas, especially in Brazil, but they are over 95% of the people I meet here out cruising full time, who never tie up in marinas , who marina occupants are unlikely to meet all that often ,and who don't believe in giving up the cost of full time cruising for a lifestyle which involves working 11 months a year while their boats lie dormant in a marina. The marina crowd's cruising is made up of getting drunk in a yacht club bar, while spouting cruising advice for those who do what the marina queen crowd keep giving uninformed advice on , to those who are actually doing what the marina crowd keep talking about ,but only do a month or less a year.
My posts are aimed at people who cruise in Canada, where there is a large percentage of people who are neither rich nor poor, unlike some countries where there are only super rich or desperately poor, and the former never meeting the latter , convince themselves that they don't exist..
Lately I have been meeting increasing numbers of people over 70 who are cruising full time, year round, and don't stay in marinas for the winters, if ever.


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## shank32095

Brent,

você é um rei especial de idiota


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## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> Is that where "Proletarian" was derived from?
> 
> Some, or most of us require more than you do in order to be satisfied - more beauty in our lives and possessions, more satisfaction and accomplishment from our life's work, more family relationships etc. etc.
> 
> Not everyone out there aspires to the life of a minimalist loner, very few do in fact.
> 
> P.S. I don't see any reason why one of your boats couldn't look about as good as that Waterline - it doesn't take any more work to make something look good as to make it look ugly or plain - all it takes is some artistry and the will.


Most do. Sea Scene posted pictures of his boat on this discussion ,every bit as good looking as a Waterline to anyone with the experience to know what to look for.
Many of my clients have raised families and wouldn't trade their full time cruising lives for anything. Most have experienced the cookie cutter consumer lifestyle you advocate, and gave it up, with great relief. All could have stayed there. Enabling them to find and live the alternative, is one of my greatest accomplishments. I wouldn't trade that for any o f the squanderism "Accomplishments" of anyone.


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## Dean101

Brent Swain said:


> w
> 
> Whats the price tag on that one? How any decades of cruising freedom does the average wage earner have to give up for that kind of "style over substance"? Will the joys of having that kind of interior, for a short remaining portion of one's life, be more fun than spending the same amount of money playing full time, for decades? Is posting pictures of a new, unlived in interior, as a comparison to one which has been lived in for decades ,an attempt to mislead.
> Are would be cruisers who are gullible enough to buy it, likely to spend as much of their lives cruising, as someone with more practical, utilitarian priorities? Will they have more fun than those who took the "low cost, what works" route, instead of the "work most of your lives away, for the priorities of others" route?


I'm beginning to think that you got your 10 layers of slopped on interior epoxy confused with lead based paint. Do you really not get that not everybody in the world wants to live like you? I'm an average wage earner and I'm well aware that a boat such as that will most likely forever be out of my reach, but I still think it is a beautiful boat and hope that whoever has both the means and the desire to own such a gorgeous vessel never looses the love for her. The boat that I buy will most likely be an older, proven vessel. That's not to say that I wont fix her up and show her some love. And no matter what harbor we sail into, I will still love her and be proud of her no matter what anybody, especially a closed minded holier than thou hermit, thinks about it. I agree with Bob. Those Swain boats that look good have the love of their owner/builder to thank, not you nor your self proclaimed design work. I would say that the owner of that Waterline will have as much fun, if not more than the owner of one of your boats. You want to talk about utilitarian? About practical? I have a car that I drive strictly for work because I travel very far to jobsites. It get's me where I need to be, when I need to be there. I don't wash it, the rain does that. I don't care if it gets scratched, it's a work car. It's full of dust and God knows what else from piling my tools in it. Hell, the tools it carries are worth more than the car itself. And then there is my truck. It's my baby! It carries my kayak and camping gear. I keep it clean and neat. I wouldn't sell it for anything. That's the difference between your boats and the Waterline. You just can't seem to get that through your head and apparently your not even capable of respecting the choices or tastes of others. If you want respect, you better be willing to give it. Otherwise, you're just a hypocrite.


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## Osprey 26

Yes I was moody and who wouldn't be.
After doing quite bit of work on my first boat I sold it. Bought another one and yes there is lot more of work on "new" boat. It is also far away and to bring it closer to home over those nasty tidal currents one can only wish to have more power and speed.
Yes Mr Perry you are legend and shouldn't be always so jumpy. Admire also your interior designs and wish i got one of your designs. Also like clasical look of those Origami boats, one was for sale out of my range. Ah well in strange way smack was smack on explaing danger of all kind of garbage foating in oceans.
Sorry for not writting this first time.


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## shank32095

Brent, 

Thread drift aside what on God's earth does Pros and cons of steel sailboats have to do with your radical leftist rants against wealthy folks? And whats with your admiration of lazy people with no jobs or ambition that cruise around in your ugly little boats 12 months per year contributing little or nothing to society. Who exactly funds your cruiser clients? I think we all know. In any case try to stay on point about what the thread is about or maybe it might be better to start a new thread " How to cruise the seven seas in a boat built out of garbage".


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## shank32095

Here's to my beautiful Brazilian wife Scheila. Happy B-day Love you baby !


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> On BD.net, Tad Roberts calculated the AVS on my 36 at 165 degrees, and Jim calculated it at 175 degrees ,posted on the origamiboats site.
> Bob claims that 123 degrees is "a fine number",but 165 and 175 degrees is "unstable?"
> Ya sure , Bob!


Actually - you have no idea what *your own boats'* AVS is. You, the "designer" have to rely on others to come up with a number. Then you want to "improve" even that. Remember when you said it was *183 degrees*?

When you try to mock Bob in these areas you really confirm the fact that you're a clown, Brent.


----------



## JonEisberg

Brent Swain said:


> I share the information that one can cruise without needing a lot of money, for which elitists, and those selling overpriced and inferior boats and equipment , are constantly attacking me.
> 
> Those who use resourcefulness and innovation instead of money are probably a tiny percentage of the marina queen crowd you meet in marinas, especially in Brazil, but they are over 95% of the people I meet here out cruising full time, who never tie up in marinas , who marina occupants are unlikely to meet all that often ,and who don't believe in giving up the cost of full time cruising for a lifestyle which involves working 11 months a year while their boats lie dormant in a marina. The marina crowd's cruising is made up of getting drunk in a yacht club bar, while spouting cruising advice for those who do what the marina queen crowd keep giving uninformed advice on , to those who are actually doing what the marina crowd keep talking about ,but only do a month or less a year.
> 
> My posts are aimed at people who cruise in Canada, where there is a large percentage of people who are neither rich nor poor, unlike some countries where there are only super rich or desperately poor, and the former never meeting the latter , convince themselves that they don't exist..
> 
> Lately I have been meeting increasing numbers of people over 70 who are cruising full time, year round, and don't stay in marinas for the winters, if ever.


95% of whom are other bitter, resentful, dumpster-diving hermits, would be my guess...


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## mitiempo

Brent Swain said:


> w
> 
> Whats the price tag on that one? How any decades of cruising freedom does the average wage earner have to give up for that kind of "style over substance"? Will the joys of having that kind of interior, for a short remaining portion of one's life, be more fun than spending the same amount of money playing full time, for decades? Is posting pictures of a new, unlived in interior, as a comparison to one which has been lived in for decades ,an attempt to mislead.
> Are would be cruisers who are gullible enough to buy it, likely to spend as much of their lives cruising, as someone with more practical, utilitarian priorities? Will they have more fun than those who took the "low cost, what works" route, instead of the "work most of your lives away, for the priorities of others" route?


Brent - that interior is 19 years old and the boat has been cruised extensively. Some people like nice things and tend to keep them that way. There are more pics on the owner's site of the interior when they were in Alaska recently. But no, it is not a boat for a Welfare type who just got out of the dumpster with his latest find. The boat is listed for $350,000

Boats like this do get cruised extensively. There is an older couple in Victoria who spent the winter in front of the Empress in their Waterline 45 - a comparable boat in a similar condition. About this time last year they were in London England. They sailed through the Northwest Passage to Victoria. When talking to the owner I suggested it was a lot more interesting than the Panama Canal alternative. He said they wouldn't have gone through the Canal but around the Horn AGAIN as they love it down there. They are typical of Waterline customers - they use their boats.

There are other people that buy nice boats and cruise extensively in them as well - Deerfoot and Sundeer for example. 32 boats with an average of over 55,000 miles per boat, one with 3 circumnavigations, several with 2, many with 1. Their interiors look good as well. You're not likely to meet them at the dumpster though.

Not everybody is or wants to be a bottom feeder, scraping along on the dole. Many work hard and well and want to enjoy what they can easily afford.

I'm not in that category but I can certainly appreciate those who are.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Most do. Sea Scene posted pictures of his boat on this discussion ,every bit as good looking as a Waterline to anyone with the experience to know what to look for.


One doesn't need any sort of experience to recognize what looks good.

Experience teaches one to recognize quality workmanship, practical construction details and that sort of thing but beauty can be seen at a glance by anyone with eyes.

Don't forget - beauty may be only skin deep but ugly goes to the bone.


----------



## SloopJonB

> We get it Brent, we really, really do





Brent Swain said:


> Most do. Sea Scene posted pictures of his boat on this discussion ,every bit as good looking as a Waterline to anyone with the experience to know what to look for.
> Many of my clients have raised families and wouldn't trade their full time cruising lives for anything. Most have experienced the cookie cutter consumer lifestyle you advocate, and gave it up, with great relief. All could have stayed there. Enabling them to find and live the alternative, is one of my greatest accomplishments. I wouldn't trade that for any o f the squanderism "Accomplishments" of anyone.


But you, apparently, do not.


----------



## bobperry

"squanderism"?

Osprey:
I think you misjudged my attempt at humor. Sorry for that. I was referring to the old rock group, the MOODY BLUES. Not you.


----------



## outbound

The gentleman who helped me design and execute the build of my Outbound is also a Waterline dealer. They are clearly the apex of what can be achieved in a mid sized steel yacht. In years past Kanter produced similar high quality yachts in steel but more recently Al. Brent need not leave Canada to see it done right. Unlike BS boats they are yachts. Builder went with steel thinking Al held paint poorly. The prep of the steel and painting is a work of beauty. Great thought was given to maintenance of the hull and systems so seeing pics of this boat after being cruised extensively and looking so fine are not surprising. His comments about filler and durability are bogus. Dutch yards are still making yachts ( not boats) of similar quality. If Brent like to broaden his horizons a trip to Puffin Yachts might surprise him. Again I've seen extensively cruised examples looking like they just splashed.


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## SloopJonB

outbound said:


> Builder went with steel thinking Al held paint poorly.


They should know better - big jets live in a much harsher environment than boats and the paint stays on them. They keep it to a minimum due to the weight but the stripes and tails keep their paint just fine.

All it takes is bright metal and appropriate primer.


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## bobperry

Nice photo of FRANCIS LEE taken by Jan of Jan's Marine Photography last Saturday when Jan was out photographing the regatta. She couldn't resist snapping a few shots of FRANCIS as it slid by. Who could?


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## smackdaddy

That's just an insanely cool boat.


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## bobperry

Smack:
I was taking Ruby to the groomer this morning and driving along thinking about "the perfect life" and if it really exists. Most aspects of my life are quite good. But I think anyone who says their life is perfect is ether lying or a moron. Then I started musing on "Is anything in my life perfect?"

The only think I could come up with is FRANCIS LEE. So far the boat has been perfect. Well,,,that's if you don't count the humming backstay but I think we now have that fixed. You see, there is always something. My old pal Ed used to say, "Always something. Never nothing." Then there is that silly nagging detail, FRANCIS doesn't belong to me.

If you look around and there is nothing that is not perfect I suspect you are not looking very hard, myopia. For my life to be perfect I'd have to see world hunger eradicated first. Then no more kids in agony, please. I do have one other little request. But that's not going to happen. My life will never be perfect. But it's a good life.


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## SloopJonB

Absolutely right - perfection is a goal, not a destination. Right now Frankie is pretty perfect but there will inevitably come scratches and other imperfections.

All we can do is keep trying and draw the line somewhere short of full on OCD.


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## bobperry

"OCD" Help me. I'm a simple old man living on the beach. What is this "OCD"?

"Old Crumbly Dick"?


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## scubadoo

Great job on the blog Bob! Very fun (and interesting) read.


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## bobperry

Thanks Scuba. I'll try to keep it up.


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## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> "OCD" Help me. I'm a simple old man living on the beach. What is this "OCD"?
> 
> "Old Crumbly Dick"?


No smilie so I assume you are serious - Obsessive/Compulsive Disorder.

It's when the quest for perfection starts to interfere with daily life in a big way.

Wife: I'm leaving you - your fussiness is driving me nuts.

Husband: Well be sure to close the door 5 times.


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## bobperry

Oh yeah. I knew that. I'm like that with my kitchen. I have to have all my cooking tools exactly in the right place or I throw a ****ski fitski.


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## SloopJonB

Anyone who can draw a lines plan and/or accurately calculate a weight study has to have a big streak of it.

It's not true OCD until it starts to interfere with daily life. How about a person who has to count every tile in a restroom before they can leave?

Imagine their terror on finding they are in a 6 stall restroom completely tiled in one inch mosaic.


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## MedSailor

OCD. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Though I prefer the letters to be ordered alphabetically myself. CDO.

MedSailor


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## bobperry

That may be true Jon about drawing lines. I can certainly see that. But I don't count tiles in bathrooms.


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> The gentleman who helped me design and execute the build of my Outbound is also a Waterline dealer. They are clearly the apex of what can be achieved in a mid sized steel yacht. In years past Kanter produced similar high quality yachts in steel but more recently Al. Brent need not leave Canada to see it done right. Unlike BS boats they are yachts. Builder went with steel thinking Al held paint poorly. The prep of the steel and painting is a work of beauty. Great thought was given to maintenance of the hull and systems so seeing pics of this boat after being cruised extensively and looking so fine are not surprising. His comments about filler and durability are bogus. Dutch yards are still making yachts ( not boats) of similar quality. If Brent like to broaden his horizons a trip to Puffin Yachts might surprise him. Again I've seen extensively cruised examples looking like they just splashed.


Several of my clients, including Steve on Silas Crosby, went to Waterline first. One look at the price tag, thinness of the plate and the fragility of the skeg and they came to me. All are glad they did.
The first time I walked into Waterline yachts, I mentioned that I am thinking of building one of those "Brentboats."
The owner snickered, and said "I don't know about resale value." 
I replied "If I spend the cost of a new Waterline, I would be lucky to get half of what I paid, out of her. If I spend less than $10 K on a brentboat I will have no problem getting far more than that out of her."
He agreed that I have a point there.

Next time I introduced myself . He said "Great ! Give me your number ,so if they complain about my prices, I can send them to you."
I resisted the urge to say "If they complain about my prices, I will send them to you."

Since then I have seen Waterlines sold; for about half the new price. Meanwhile, many brentboats have been sold; for many times what their owners had into them. The higher the price tag, the greater the gap between original price and resale price, until they become a net loss.
Gullible, style over substance type consumers, remind me of last century Chinese women, hobbling along painfully for their entire lives on bound feet, while sarcastically ridiculing and laughing at those incredibly stupid European women, for so "Foolishly "allowing heir feet to become so large and "unstylish."

While suckers of consumerism hobble painfully along under the burden of debt, to keep up with the Joneses, persuing matters which either make absolutely no difference, or are a detriment to the function of a yacht , my more enlightened clients are sleeping in as long as they please, getting up whenever they please, and going sailing any time they please, for as long as they please ( while being snickered and laughed at by those people in the traffic lineups, going to work and groveling to a boss, to pay for their gullibility).

Definition of landlubber values:
Spending money you don't have, to buy things you don't need, to impress people you don't like!
Yes, I could put dainty knee high trip wires on, instead of proper solid lifelines. But I wont, because I would rather my boats look less trendy, than look stupid, to people with actual steel boat experience.
Yes I could put in teak sliding hatches, instead of a solid one piece door. But I won't, because I would rather my boat looked less trendy, than look stupid, to people with actual steel boat experience.
Fortunately, later Waterlines replaced teak hatches and toe rails ( dead vegetation) with stainless and aluminium. Sadly, their sliding hatches are still out of date contraptions.
I recently saw a steel boat in Maple Bay which the gullible would appreciate. It had such a high gloss finish, you couldn't tell it from a plastic boat. That would so dazzle the "style over substance" gullible, that they would probably fail to notice that it had no bow cleats whatever, nothing to tie up with which was anywhere near the bow. The nearest cleat to the bow was about 7 feet from it. They were far to fragile ( yachtie) to hold the boat in any kind of serious blow. Fine, if you only tie up in marinas! Useless for cruising beyond the land of marinas.
A cop I knew ordered an Amazon hull and decks in the 80s. He specified no primer. The builder put primer on anyway. When the cop had her sandblasted, he found out why they put primer on. To hide the bondo, til the cheque cleared.
Another found his longitudinals had a half inch tack every three feet holding them in. He tried to sue Amazon . Amazon folded.
Distortion is caused by welding. Less welding, less distortion. Origami boats have a fraction the amount of welding needed, compared to outdated methods, because they enable one to use full sized 8 ft by 36 ft sheets of steel . An origami boat would be much fairer than other boats, without their filler,even those built by first time builders..


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I replied "If I spend the cost of a new Waterline I would be lucky to get half of what I paid, out of her. If I spend less than $10 K on a brentboat I will have no problem getting far more than that out of her."
> He agreed that I have a point there.


Except for the fact that's not at all possible. More fairy rust and clown shoes Brent.



Brent Swain said:


> Meanwhile many brentboats have been sold; for many times what their owners had into them.


Complete BS. Show us the actual numbers from your actual customers or pipe down. This kind of crap just don't fly bro.


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## bobperry

"You gullible, style over substance type consumers, remind me of last century Chinese women, hobbling along painfully for their entire lives on bound feet, while sarcastically ridiculing and laughing at those incredibly stupid European women for so "Foolishly "allowing heir feet to become so large and "unstylish."

While you hobble along under the burden of debt, to keep up with the Joneses persuing matters which either make absolutely no difference or are a detriment to the function of a yacht , my more enlightened clients are sleeping in as long as they please, getting up whenever they please, and going sailing any time they please, for as long as they please."

We are watching BS spiral slowly out of control. His posts just get angrier and angrier.


----------



## Dean101

bobperry said:


> "You gullible, style over substance type consumers, remind me of last century Chinese women, hobbling along painfully for their entire lives on bound feet, while sarcastically ridiculing and laughing at those incredibly stupid European women for so "Foolishly "allowing heir feet to become so large and "unstylish."
> 
> While you hobble along under the burden of debt, to keep up with the Joneses persuing matters which either make absolutely no difference or are a detriment to the function of a yacht , my more enlightened clients are sleeping in as long as they please, getting up whenever they please, and going sailing any time they please, for as long as they please."
> 
> We are watching BS spiral slowly out of control. His posts just get angrier and angrier.


That tends to be what happens when one hears the truth and doesn't like the sound.


----------



## bobperry

I'm starting to hear "The Strange Last Voyage of Donald Crowhurst" in Brent's posts.

In about ten days we will race FRANCIS LEE for the first time. That will be very exciting. I know we will have a great time.

Many thanks to all who have visited my blog this week. Since I started blogging again this week I am getting 125 hits or more a day. I appreciate that.


----------



## Brent Swain

Having enabled so many people to get out cruising in good, safe, affordable steel boats, which they could never have afforded otherwise, just keeps making me happier and happier, not angry, as it would Bob. You got it bass ackwards again , Bob! ( as usual)
The guy I sold my last boat to, told me that after seeing Waterline's prices, thought he would never be able to afford a steel boat in his lifetime. My boats and building methods made it possible for him, and much poorer people to own the best of new steel boats.
Knowing that has made me very happy, far beyond what mere money could ever do.

Apologies for speaking so far over your head, Bob! I understand such concepts and values being culturally beyond your capability of comprehending!
Maybe it's due to the crowd you hang out with!

You should get out ( cruising) more ! Meet some real people ,who live outside your consumerism bubble!


----------



## bobperry

Then why this never ending, over and over rant about what is wrong with the rest of the sailing world. You will never convince me that you are happy. You have convinced me that you are pathetic. You try way too hard to sell your life style to people who have told you several times they are not interested.

In 14 days I'll fly to SF to give my talk at SFYC. I'll fly first class. I'll dress nicely with a tie to show respect to the club. I'l probably wear some nice, crisp Italian wool slacks, pleats, full break at the cuff, 1.25" cuff (I'm tall). I'll enjoy my trip. I am clearly not your kind of guy Brent. I would not enjoy your dumpster diving life style at all. But you go ahead and go for it. I don;t care what you do but you seem to care so much about what others do. See,,,that;s the simple difference. I'm a live and let live type. You are a complainer who goes after anyone who doesn't see the world his way. I'm for diversity not conformity. I don't want anyone telling how I should live my life.


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Brent
> Some of us like work. We help others and get satisfaction from using our skills and the blessings god gave us.
> 
> As do I, enabling people who build my boats, to afford steel boats they could never afford otherwise ( check Waterlines prices)
> 
> Some of us live very differently in different phases phases of our lives. We pack different lives and different personas into our time on earth.
> 
> Landlubber consumerism is not exactly 'Different". More like ultra conformity!
> 
> Some us enjoy modern comforts as we live on our boats. Hydraulic heat with multiple zones,AC,unlimited fresh water,tv,internet connectivity, great sound system, freezer and frig with wind and solar so little need to liberate hydrocarbons.
> 
> My electricity comes from solar and wind.
> I derive far greater comfort from not having to work a 40 hour week, to acquire all that junk and complexity in my life. I have all the comfort I need. My brentboat is as comfortable as any house I have ever lived in, and any hotel I have ever stayed in, in fact far more comfortable. My neighbours say the same about their brentboats.
> 
> Some of us like to travel in a boat that performs,is safe in weather and is beautiful inside and out.
> 
> Describes my boats perfectly, but with far greater safety!
> 
> Some of us like to haul when convenient not worrying delayed maintenance will imperil the structural integrity of our homes. Sure like you we need to keep our bottoms clean and zincs fresh but modern materials and diving makes for acceptable intervals.
> 
> It takes 15 years for unpainted 3/16th mild steel to rust thru in the tropics . Far longer in colder climes.
> 
> I like metal boats. I nearly built one and for my " last " boat the decision was between a Boreal or a Outbound. I think for the home builder wanting steel both on a performance,financial ( resale), aesethic, maintenance and quality of life basis the prospective sailor would be well served to look at designs other than yours given your thinking and attitude are clearly frozen in one time,one space and an inflexible view of the world.Please stop degrading yourself by trying to degrade others.


Mine are some of the few designs available , which are not frozen in the time of imitation wooden boat building methods.Van de Stadts are the only others I am aware of. All others I know of use grossly outdated wooden boat style , plate on frame methods, a huge waste of time and money.


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## bobperry

"All others I know of use grossly outdated wooden boat style , plate on frame methods, a huge waste of time and money."

Yes, but strong boats that in many cases look quite good. Some like the Waterline look great. I can't imagine owning an ugly boat.


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## Brent Swain

I would never own or build an ugly boat . That is why I make all mine so beautiful.
A steel boat with thicker plate and fewer frames, is far harder to hole than one with thinner plate and more weight in frames. The framing makes it much easier to punch a hole in next to a frame.


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## Brent Swain

Whats the draft on Frankie?


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## bobperry

Well Brent if your boat is so beautiful why do you never post photos of it? You are the Dulcamara of origami your boat must be a fine example of your method and design skills.
Let's see you post some nice, high res photos of your own boat. We can determine if it's beautiful. I'm sure your boat is a floating show piece.

I post my boats all over here and everywhere. I'm proud of them and I show them off. I call it marketing. And, showing off.

I'll wait for those nice photos of your boat.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I would never own or build an ugly boat . That is why I make all mine so beautiful.


Ahm...


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## shank32095

Hey Brent, 

I'm with Bob, Let's see some pics or stfu. I would really like to see the one you built that you stated was "the best of new steel boats". You know the one for 10K that you said is superior to a new Waterline listing for over $600K. That would imply you can build a better, more beautiful yacht for 1.6% of the cost of a new Waterline. Dude, you're truly awesome. You should really consider expanding your empire into aviation and automotive offering your enlightened clients $50K Citations and $1600 Porsche 911's.


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## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> I would never own or build an ugly boat . That is why I make all mine so beautiful.


:laugher Apparently you need thicker lenses Brent. Either that or some schooling in art and beauty. I know it's in the eye of the beholder, but that doesn't count if the beholder is willfully blind.

For the record, the *best* of your boats could be termed handsome, exactly NONE are truly beautiful.

Since you seem a little uncertain on this concept, I suggest a reading of *Phillip L. Rhodes and his yacht designs *by Richard Henderson. That or any of the books on S&S boats - *You Are First, All This and Sailing Too, Lines* etc. I won't suggest Bob's book for obvious reasons.

THOSE are beautiful boats.


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## SloopJonB

Here are some samples of Brent's view of beauty.


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## SloopJonB

Here's more;


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## smackdaddy

This one isn't a Brentboat. The liferails are too short. Very yachty...










This one is not nearly as ugly as the other ones...










Of course, they too ignored Brent's design on the liferails. Actually, it seems many of them ignored Brent.

Strange. I thought they were all grateful.

This one just makes me sad...










No boat should have to go through life looking like that.

This photo shows the real truth behind Brent's marketing program...










He's convinced his customers that "full time cruising" means hitting or sitting on hard stuff. Interesting approach. I really hope someone lets them know that that's not sailing.


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## bobperry

That green one looks ok. Not beautiful but not ugly. Clearly Brent had nothing to do with that deck.

I'm waiting to see Brent's own masterpiece.
Bring it on Brent.

That unfinished white boat has some very serious fairness issues aft. Looks awful. I think if I stood back and saw that shape I'd stop work too.


----------



## JonEisberg

smackdaddy said:


> This one is not nearly as ugly as the other ones...


To my eye, that one's not too bad at all. I can even picture owning something like that, at least as it appears from the pic... The ridiculous height of the boom is a bit of a mystery, however... Perhaps it needs to be that high to clear the lifeline rails originally spec'ed by Brent?

Most of us aren't shy about posting pics of our boats, I've always wondered what Brent's looked like, and figured one was simply buried too deeply in this thread for me to bother looking... Glad someone has finally issued the 'challenge', but it won't surprise me if he deems us Not Worthy of gazing upon such Exalted Beauty...


----------



## smackdaddy

JonEisberg said:


> To my eye, that one's not too bad at all. I can even picture owning something like that, at least as it appears from the pic... The ridiculous height of the boom is a bit of a mystery, however... Perhaps it needs to be that high to clear the lifeline rails originally spec'ed by Brent?
> 
> Most of us aren't shy about posting pics of our boats, I've always wondered what Brent's looked like, and figured one was simply buried too deeply in this thread for me to bother looking... Glad someone has finally issued the 'challenge', but it won't surprise me if he deems us Not Worthy of gazing upon such Exalted Beauty...


I've posted a couple of close-ups I found of his boat (in the BS Marketing post). It's definitely not quite what he claims in terms of "perfection".

The problem is that when he does actually show the world his "perfect boat" - _as it is now_ - the whole world immediately sees that his claims don't match reality. It's really that simple.


----------



## SloopJonB

I think I've found the girl for Brent. Won't work, unsocial, unconcerned with esthetics or style, likes unusual colours, even comes with some of her own steel.


----------



## Brent Swain

JonEisberg said:


> To my eye, that one's not too bad at all. I can even picture owning something like that, at least as it appears from the pic... The ridiculous height of the boom is a bit of a mystery, however... Perhaps it needs to be that high to clear the lifeline rails originally spec'ed by Brent?
> 
> Most of us aren't shy about posting pics of our boats, I've always wondered what Brent's looked like, and figured one was simply buried too deeply in this thread for me to bother looking... Glad someone has finally issued the 'challenge', but it won't surprise me if he deems us Not Worthy of gazing upon such Exalted Beauty...


I usually put the boom 30 inches off the decks, as mine are. The owner did the rig on that boat in California, when I was in Haida Gwai. I have no idea why he put it so high.
Dale was the only other guy who had wire lifelines for several years, until he went cruising on another boat I had put solid life lines on, in Mexico last winter. . He came home and immediately put solid lifelines on the green one in Olympia.Until you have sailed with solid lifelines, its hard to appreciate the peace of mind it gives. Once you have you will never go back to trip wires.


----------



## Brent Swain

SloopJonB said:


> Quick - choose one for your next boat.


Here's another pic of Silas Crosby.


----------



## Brent Swain

*Re: François Lucas*



PCP said:


> I guess I was not clear. I was not talking about boats built in a shipyard but home built boats, literally on the backyard on a shed. But there are many that build them with chines on a shipyard and again, all OVNI line, that is hugely popular and are obviously built on a shipyard and very professionally have chines. That allows them to reduce costs and the price of the boats without a significant loss in performance.
> 
> Anyway it is more of a aesthetic preference than anything else. Some years ago I didn't like it...now I am used to them.
> 
> Since we are talking about amateur boat building and I believe that it is the main market for steel boats as well as for some aluminium ones I would like to post about some French NA that design for amateurs (and shipyards alike) mainly in Alu but also in steel. I believe it makes sense on this thread.
> 
> I will begin with François Lucas and his Hermine series, very popular among amateurs and that can also be built professionally:
> 
> naval architect nantes yacht designer racing sailing yacht cruising yacht motor boat workboat Réalisations - Designs Croisière
> 
> The Hermine 36 and the 40 are the more popular for amateur boat building:
> 
> The 36:
> 
> 
> [
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL]
> 
> The 40:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 47:
> 
> 
> 
> Hermine 130
> 
> 
> 
> The Tp 44
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and just for Classic 30 be satisfied let me put an Aluminium Lucas design without chines, even if most of his aluminium designs have chines. This one is not for amateur boat building but only for a professional shipyard.
> 
> The Aventurin 40
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding these boats the chines are more a convenience in what regards building easiness but as they are very well designed their negative influence in what regards boat performance are negligible, if any.
> 
> This was the NA that many years ago started the "fashion" of chines on open boats. When all boats have rounded hulls he designed a Plywood 40 class racer with chines, not vertical ones like the chines on the 60's but kind of modern ones, like they are used now. Everybody started to make jokes about the boat as a racing boat and about him regarding saying that the chines the way they were designed on the hull would better the performance. Well, the jokes stooped when the boat start winning races...and everybody went back to the drawing board again trying to understand why.


By comparison, these are the snub nosed abortions they consider "Attractive!"
Judge for yourself!

There is zero chance of getting the same structural resistance to a head on impact with such short based twin keels, as you get with 8 ft of attachment to the hull


----------



## Brent Swain

*Re: Gilbert Caroff / Duflos*



PCP said:


> Not true at all. I posted several steel boats on this thread without chines but they were not home built. Fact is that chines make the building much easier for an amateur and many (relatively) modern designs for the amateur boat builder have chines because they make building easier.
> 
> The previous post is about one of the most popular European designers for steel amateur boat building Gilbert Caroff, an old and famous one. In this case chines have not to do with a better performance but regarding making building easier. Even professional boat builders like Alubat - OVNI (alu) use chines as a building technique to make the boats easier to build and therefore cheaper since they, if well designed they don't take too much performance on a sailingboat (the ones that are not used expressly to increase performance on an otherwise rounded hull).
> 
> More about Caroff in a thread in MetalBoatbuilding:
> 
> *"Gilbert Caroff (now semi-retired) has about 5000 boats of his design in the water, motor boats, canal boats and sailboats. He has made a speciality in exploratory and polar sailboats. He is well know for being the architect with the highest number of "civil" sailboat that have gone to the north pole, the antartic, and that have spend years in the ice and some even did the travel around the world through the north pole passages."*
> 
> MetalBoatbuilding.org ? View topic - Gilbert Caroff-Duflos
> 
> Here, have a good look at a nice one with a rounded steel one, a Radford design. The difference is that for doing it this way you need a much more complex steel structure before putting the plates in. I am sure Brent or Mike can explain this to you in a much better way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The same hull in an aluminium version:
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


These are building methods waterline uses , identical to how metal boats have been built in the 50's. Waterline has hit the peak of craftsmanship, but their methods are 50s technology .Only origami represents any real progress in building methods (and the Aussie Gelignite 35 .)


----------



## bobperry

Brent:
Yes but,,,,,where are the pics of your boat? We are all waiting.

That French design doesn't much appeal to me either, just not my style. But at least there are design drawings so I can assume it was designed.

No pics. No drawings? Come on, give us a treat.

The Waterlines hull looks very nice.


----------



## Brent Swain

*Re: Gilbert Caroff / Duflos*



PCP said:


> http://www.caroff-duflos-architecture-naval.com/fichier_associe/chatam_37.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.caroff-duflos-architecture-naval.com/fichier_associe/chatam_40.pdf
> 
> You find the Chatam 37 ad 40 ugly? Well I cannot say that I find them very beautiful but I normally don't find beautiful old hulls and these designs have many years, more than 20 if I am not wrong, but I find them remarkably modern for their time. The designer is really old and is semi-retired now but those designs continue to be built all over the world.
> 
> Certainly it is (was) a great design and those boats have navigated extensively, circumnavigated and sailed on the Arctic and Antarctic. Certainly the hulls work fine otherwise they would not have been built in so large numbers. The French are quite picky in what regards sailing performance and have a huge number of options in what regards boats and Nas.
> 
> In what regards aesthetics it is a more subjective matter but I would say that they are beautiful to many otherwise he would not have about 6000 boats of his design sailing the oceans and the Chatam series are one of the more popular series.
> 
> He seems to care a lot more regarding how his boats look than you, or at least is what seems to me.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Here's another photo of one they consider "Attractive," the way only a hagfish would consider another hagfish of the opposite sex "Attractive."
Judge for yourself!


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## bobperry

Yeah but,,,their not your's Brent. Show us your boat. Your big with showing other people's stuff but very short on showing your own. Makes me wonder.

I kind of like that one you posted. I'd have to see it finished but it looks like a decent start if that style appeals to you. We cant all be stuck in 1966. Not that it was a bad year.


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## Brent Swain

There is an interesting article in the latest issue of Pacific Yachting. It shows "Composite": (ABC approved) thru hulls broken clean off on the outside flange, leaving a huge hole in the hull. It states that such cracking and breaking of the outside flange is common. A friend had that happen on her plastic stock boat.
Thus, another advantage of steel is the ability to weld in stainless type 316 sch 40 pipe nipples, which have never given me a hint of trouble , nor anyone else I know of, who uses them, in over 40 years of use ( But, I am told, are not ABS approved, unlike the fragile plastic ones, which are frequently breaking). I'll take logic, decades of experience and common sense over ABS approval anytime, especially when they insist I use something which fails commonly, over that which has had zero problems over many decades. 
You can pound on them with a sledgehammer without breaking them off. I got kicked off several sites for suggesting that sch 40 stainless, welded in, is stronger than plastic . 
This kinda blows all credibility for finding useful info on those sites( including BD.net)


----------



## bobperry

Yeah but, where are the photos of your boat Brent. You sound like the same old tired record. I can't speak for everyone but you are the Dulcamara of origami and I would like to see some good high res photos of your boat.

Maybe you are like me. Photos of everyone else's boats but none of mine. I'm a lousy photographer so I don't take many photos. I just don't have the knack to "capture the moment". But I sure as hell have lots of nice photos of my work.


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## Brent Swain

The sheer on my boats is simply the factory edge of the plate, eliminating 72 feet of cutting and grinding on a 36. It can be modified by changing the flare slightly at any point.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Yeah but, where are the photos of your boat Brent. You sound like the same old tired record. I can't speak for everyone but you are the Dulcamara of origami and I would like to see some good high res photos of your boat.
> 
> Maybe you are like me. Photos of everyone else's boats but none of mine. I'm a lousy photographer so I don't take many photos. I just don't have the knack to "capture the moment". But I sure as hell have lots of nice photos of my work.


They are on my other computer. I will post one next week, if I get around to it.


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## bobperry

Brent:
What I like about you is that you do have an honest sense of humor.

You mean next week you could be jammed and not have the time for 10 minutes of photo posting? Email them to me and I'll post them.

I thought about you today. I met with two new clients who have whacky idea and I wondered if you and your building method might fit in. We'll see. I have no problem with your method. I even think one or two of your boats are almost handsome. I think you nailed the sheer on that 34' model. I think you are a twerp. But I can be a jerk so I can relate.


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> This one isn't a Brentboat. The liferails are too short. Very yachty...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one is not nearly as ugly as the other ones...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, they too ignored Brent's design on the liferails. Actually, it seems many of them ignored Brent.
> 
> Strange. I thought they were all grateful.
> 
> This one just makes me sad...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No boat should have to go through life looking like that.
> 
> This photo shows the real truth behind Brent's marketing program...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's convinced his customers that "full time cruising" means hitting or sitting on hard stuff. Interesting approach. I really hope someone lets them know that that's not sailing.


The dark green one is Richards boat. He is a welding instructor, and designed the decks himself. He has cruised the entire BC coast extensively, including Haida Gwai, and loves his boat. He has been impressed by the speed and balance of her.
The one in the white primer is the blue one in the anchorage. The current owner bought the bare shell , with most of the deck detail done , for what the builder had into her, $17K ,and finished it quickly.He has lived aboard since ,and will be building my boats for a living. He is young, very practical and a good metal worker , so has more work thrown at him than he can handle .
The lighter green one is from NE Olympia Wa. After cruising with a friend , in Mexico last winter, a friend who's boat I put solid lifelines on, he came home and immediately put solid lifelines on his own boat.
The steel for that one came thursday afternoon and by friday night, next day, her hull, transom ,bulwark caps and longitudinals were all together. He and his wife can confirm that.
Most stock plastic boats I see in marinas, never leaving. Does Smack consider any boats which stop for the night, to never be cruising? Does his boat keep sailing constantly, and never stop? No need for anchors or fenders or mooring lines as you keep moving non stop for ever?
Smack also says one should buy only a scrap boat, to save money then buy only new gear for it, and buy all your stainless retail ,when the scrapyards are full of it for a fraction the price. Then you should tie your boat up in a marina and throw thousands of dollars at it in moorage, then heat it with electric heat. Then buy a house to live in, but the boat itself should be from the scrapyards of used boats,to save money!
I think Smack takes first prize, for some of the densest combinations of ideas ever posted here, or anywhere.


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## bobperry

Brent:
I think that green boat is spot on. I could own that boat and be proud.
The finished white boat is rather nice also.
The unfinished white hull is too unfair aft for my taste.

I don't know what to think about the three boats in the mud. If they were my designs I think I'd be happy.

But your attacks on Smack are silly. He has his taste and you have yours. We are all entitled to our own opinions and his are not yours. So be it. I know for certain that Smack enjoys his own boat a lot. It's kind of weird to tell someone, "No,,,you are not having fun." I don't get that attitude.

My life is different from yours. But that doesn't make my life "bad" just different. I would not like to live your life with no family around me. And it's plain from your postings that you don't want a family around you. I'm not sure you know what you are missing but I respect your decisions.

Tomorrow is Easter. Big celebration at the Perry shack. Giant ham, spuds, peas, my own white sauce and some good Riesling to wash it all down. I can guarantee you that there will be no angry people here. You are welcome to join us. I'd like that.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I got kicked off several sites for suggesting that sch 40 stainless, welded in, is stronger than plastic .
> This kinda blows all credibility for finding useful info on those sites( including BD.net)


No, you get kicked off sites for being dense, dishonest, and insulting. It definitely isn't your nipples.


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## bobperry

Not nipples?


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> The current owner bought the bare shell , with most of the deck detail done , for what the builder had into her, $17K ,and finished it quickly.


Then, according to you, either that owner lied about how much he had into her or you lied about how much it takes to get a boat to that point:



Brent Swain said:


> When I was able to get a 36 ft shell together for around $8K, the cheapest commercial builders were doing it for was $25,000.


You really have trouble with the truth Mr. Swain.

Remember, dear readers, do as Mr. Swain says and completely discount anything I say. Simply pay attention to his own words. I don't have a lift a finger.


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## bobperry

Give Brent a brake Smacks. He was never very good with the truth. It's a challenge for him to remember what he said yesterday. Reality is all so,,,,nebulous.


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## Dean101

bobperry said:


> Give Brent a brake Smacks. He was never very good with the truth. It's a challenge for him to remember what he said yesterday. Reality is all so,,,,nebulous.


So true. I hope you're not holding your breath for that picture from Brent's other computer.


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## bobperry

Dean:
Don't expect I will but that's OK. I sense that maybe Brent's boat is not Bristol and he might be reluctant to post pics because he knows he will be jumped on. That's probably not fair and sort of smacks at "bullying" and I can put myself , unfortunately, in that crowd. But it's Easter and I feel good about things today so I am going to try to make an effort to be ,,,,
Oh,,,,,,say "non-offensive" today.


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## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> Then, according to you, either that owner lied about how much he had into her or you lied about how much it takes to get a boat to that point:
> 
> You really have trouble with the truth Mr. Swain.
> 
> Remember, dear readers, do as Mr. Swain says and completely discount anything I say. Simply pay attention to his own words. I don't have a lift a finger.


I think there was about a twenty odd year span between those two costs Smack.


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## bobperry

I think there was about a twenty odd year span between those two costs Smack.""

How odd? And do you have any pics?


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## SloopJonB

This boat looks like it might actually fulfill Brent's claims for someone. Appears it could be bought for under $20K.

Looks like a workmanlike build and it doesn't get much cheaper for an equipped, utilitarian offshore boat. As he pointed out in an earlier post, just the steel work would cost as much to build new.

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-sailboat/com...-ii/519611515?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true


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## bobperry

Wow, that is a very low price. Boat looks fine if you like the type. Interior looks good. I'd say it was a bargain.


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## djodenda

Happy Easter to all those on this meandering thread!


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## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> I think there was about a twenty odd year span between those two costs Smack.""
> 
> How odd? And do you have any pics?


I read his price comments as follows;

The $17K was a somewhat recent cost while the $7K was intended to show that his method cost about 1/3 of a commercial operation, albeit back in the day - not that he could do it for that price now.

I suspect that just the raw steel would cost more than that now.


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## shank32095

The deal with Brent has much more to do with how he says it than what he says. Maybe a Dale Carnegie class might be just the thing he needs. That and the fact that he thinks if he repeats himself enough times it will make whatever he is saying factual. Considering his complete lack of social skills it is quite amazing he has pulled off selling his program as often as he has. It is really a shame as he is obviously very knowledgeable but so extremely obnoxious. Not so hard to see why he plays whuppin' boy.


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## bobperry

I knew a guy who when you disagreed with him he would just repeat what he said, slower and LOUDER.

Shank:
To sign up for a "help" class you first have to admit you need help. Can you see that possibly happening with BS? I rthink not. In Brent's head, we are the ones who need help.


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## shank32095

My grandfather was a very cool dude. A millionaire several times over but when I was a teenager I would drive him and grandma grocery shopping. They would cut out coupons and we would go to like a half dozen stores buying dented canned goods. Like all kids I thought it was crazy and a waste of gas/time driving around South Florida buying a little bit here and there. Unlike Brent my grandfather was a very humble and patient person who took time to explain how important being fugal was in succeeding financially. On the other hand he owned a beautiful sportfishing boat, drove a Lincoln and had a house on the intracoastal. Didn't take long for me to put the two together because of Papys' success and easy humble way of getting his point across. He was a great mentor even though I did not realize it at the time. His lessons have been put to good use the last forty years!


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## bobperry

Shank:
Maybe some day you will get to tell him how important he is. Sounds like a treasure to me.


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## shank32095

Yes I hopefully will along with his two great grandsons who also are learning the wonderful lessons he passed along to me which I am handing down. I don't need to tell you Bob how important that hand off between generations is, one only needs to look around today to see a lot of fathers fumbling in that area.


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## SloopJonB

shank32095 said:


> My grandfather was a very cool dude. A millionaire several times over but when I was a teenager I would drive him and grandma grocery shopping. They would cut out coupons and we would go to like a half dozen stores buying dented canned goods. Like all kids I thought it was crazy and a waste of gas/time driving around South Florida buying a little bit here and there. Unlike Brent my grandfather was a very humble and patient person who took time to explain how important being fugal was in succeeding financially. On the other hand he owned a beautiful sportfishing boat, drove a Lincoln and had a house on the intracoastal. Didn't take long for me to put the two together because of Papys' success and easy humble way of getting his point across. He was a great mentor even though I did not realize it at the time. His lessons have been put to good use the last forty years!


A very good example of the fact that few people acquire wealth by being stupid about money.


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## SloopJonB

shank32095 said:


> Maybe a Dale Carnegie class might be just the thing he needs.


Just don't send him to a Norman Vincent Peale class.


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## bobperry

Good point Jon. I once had a client for a nice big boat. I sent the drawings and specs to a very well known East Coast yard and a NZ yard. The East Coast yard's bid was twice that of the NZ yard. I told them no thanks you are too high. I got a letter back from the East Coast yard saying "When you get a client not worried about the finished cost let us know." I wrote them back and said, "I've never had a client like that." We built the boat in NZ for a bit over $2,000,000 and it came out very nice.


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## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> smacks at "bullying".


Just occasionally.


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## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> This boat looks like it might actually fulfill Brent's claims for someone. Appears it could be bought for under $20K.
> 
> Looks like a workmanlike build and it doesn't get much cheaper for an equipped, utilitarian offshore boat. As he pointed out in an earlier post, just the steel work would cost as much to build new.
> 
> Attention Blue water cruisers - Brent Swain Sailboat- Dove II | sailboats | Comox / Courtenay / Cumberland | Kijiji


Less than $20K for a steel boat? If it's anywhere _near_ sound, that's a great deal.










But that's my point - _why on earth_ would you actually _build_ one of these things??? You'd lose tens of thousands of dollars AND years of your life. Totally not worth it.

If you HAVE to have a steel boat - buy this thing for $10K (far less than the cost of the raw materials) and go cruising. Let the sucker who built it take the bath. But make sure to have a thorough inspection first. It could be a nightmare.


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## DJR351

Here's one that seems to have served her owners very well.....

the boat | s/v silas crosby


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## JonEisberg

Brent Swain said:


> Dale was the only other guy who had wire lifelines for several years, until he went cruising on another boat I had put solid life lines on, in Mexico last winter. . He came home and immediately put solid lifelines on the green one in Olympia.Until you have sailed with solid lifelines, its hard to appreciate the peace of mind it gives. Once you have you will never go back to trip wires.


Well, solid rails make a for convenience in the placement and adjusting of fenders for a transit of the Erie Canal, I'll give them that...


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## bobperry

I think solid rails can look fine done in s.s.. The painted steel rails on the BS boats look heavy and crude. I certainly understand the application and benefits.

That blue BS boat looks OK except for the butt ugly dodger.


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## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> I think solid rails can look fine done in s.s.. The painted steel rails on the BS boats look heavy and crude. I certainly understand the application and benefits.
> 
> That blue BS boat looks OK except for the butt ugly dodger.


It does kinda look like a dirty toenail doesn't it.


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## bobperry

Smacks:
I was thinking more along the lines of a wart on the end of a nose.

I'm blogging again today. I'm telling the entire Baba story like it has never been told before.


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## Dirtyfloats

]

But that's my point - _why on earth_ would you actually _build_ one of these things??? You'd lose tens of thousands of dollars AND years of your life. Totally not worth it.

If you HAVE to have a steel boat - buy this thing for $10K (far less than the cost of the raw materials) and go cruising. Let the sucker who built it take the bath. But make sure to have a thorough inspection first. It could be a nightmare.[/QUOTE]

Really? Why whould someone buld one?
well, i csn tell you that i am very happy to be building my steel boat with my own two hands.
There is no commercially available sailboat out there that would suit my needs at all. Believe me, ive tried. For the most part they just arent bult well enough to handle the type of abuse i put them through. 
Looking pretty at the dock just isnt gonna cut it. Nor is sailing performance the only consideration.
For me the boat has to thrive being in remote anchorages, with little resources. For that reason im building one of brent swains designs to suit my needs. Im quite confident that its the only boat that would put up with my lifdstyle.


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## bobperry

Dirt:
Good on ya. Sounds like you know exactly what you are doing. No point in making resale value the goal of a custom, owner built boat.

Not sure what "commercially available boats" or what your idea of "abuse" is but I don't think it makes any sense to paint all "commercially available boats" with one brush. That just tells me you haven't really looked hard. There are some very tough production boats out there and a lot of flimsy ones too. But if you are a reef banger or rock basher I think you are correct, steel is the material for you. Best of luck with your build. How about posting some pics for us?


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## Dirtyfloats

Abuse, In my mind is just working. the same way tugs, and fish boats do...
pulling logs of a beach for salvage. Dropping moorings for friends, delivering well pipe to remote islands, doing the dead battery run for people who live off grid, my cockpit is my welding shop/ mechanic shop/ labratory, etc...

Same reason i dont like cars. they cant do any work, so Ill take a pickup truck.

What type of production sailboat would suit me? 
where do you mount the vice on these things?!
Where on deck to i chop my firewood?
There are plenty of tugs/work boats that would, but they wont sail!
I will post pictures when I figure out how!


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## bobperry

"Where on deck to i chop my firewood?"

Now, that there is a very good question. One I have often asked myself.

Come to think of it Dirt. You will have the perfect boat for your intended use. Those dents in the deck will have zero effect on the overall look of the boat.


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## Dirtyfloats

Half inch stainless plate welded to the back section of cockpit seats. 
Gotta be able to hammer somwhere...
Certainly wont dent that....


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## bobperry

Can't imagine you could.

It's common for me to design in vice mounts on my custom designs. Not places to chop wood though.


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## DJR351

Ahhhh......so that is what the fire axe is for......


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## goat

bobperry said:


> Can't imagine you could.
> 
> It's common for me to design in vice mounts on my custom designs. Not places to chop wood though.


I have a vice mounted in my saloon. But it's mostly for tying flies. 

goat


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## bobperry

You bethcha


----------



## Capt Len

Cinderella and her sisters had different realities too. Building your own vessel and heating it with wood on the coast is so far from others realities the twain shall never meet . And just as well too. Else we wouldn't have this inane entertainment on the SN.


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## NCC320

Maybe, just maybe, people are underestimating Brent Swain. He probably truly believes most of what he says, even when it flies in the face of more knowledgeable people. But why would he come back again and again to get beat up and put down by lots of people here? Brent, no doubt, has a following of people who buy into his ideas and designs. The Origami method is kind of neat, but the end result is not what most of us want in a boat, never mind that they are super strong. And it almost looks to me, that he sometimes goes out of his way to make the boats unattractive. The oversized, painted handrails and those odd cabin tops are examples. And if getting beat up for his ideas isn't enough, he frequently insults some of the more knowledgeable people who publish here. So why does he do it? Look to Hollywood. If you are an actor, you need publicity and name recognition. Best if you get it for your work, but if not from there, any other source will do, good or bad. So lots of those people seem to go out of their way for press, bad press or any kind of press at all. Now, most people reading this forum list tend to side with boats like Bob Perry designs, and few really have the time or inclination to build their own boat, and most kind of like their lifestyle, even with work and mortgages, much better than they like Brent's lifestyle (otherwise, they would be anchored out somewhere on a Brent boat). In any dialogue like this thread, there will always be some who go opposite from most others, and opposite to reason, as it appears to most of us. And these people are Brent's potential clients, and threads like these, with all the arguments, is how he can come into contact with these people. So, maybe, it's all about getting publicity, good or bad. It's business, you know. Do what you have to do to make the sale.


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## MedSailor

NCC320 said:


> Maybe, just maybe, people are underestimating Brent Swain. He probably truly believes most of what he says, even when it flies in the face of more knowledgeable people. But why would he come back again and again to get beat up and put down by lots of people here? Brent, no doubt, has a following of people who buy into his ideas and designs. The Origami method is kind of neat, but the end result is not what most of us want in a boat, never mind that they are super strong. And it almost looks to me, that he sometimes goes out of his way to make the boats unattractive. The oversized, painted handrails and those odd cabin tops are examples. And if getting beat up for his ideas isn't enough, he frequently insults some of the more knowledgeable people who publish here. So why does he do it? Look to Hollywood. If you are an actor, you need publicity and name recognition. Best if you get it for your work, but if not from there, any other source will do, good or bad. So lots of those people seem to go out of their way for press, bad press or any kind of press at all. Now, most people reading this forum list tend to side with boats like Bob Perry designs, and few really have the time or inclination to build their own boat, and most kind of like their lifestyle, even with work and mortgages, much better than they like Brent's lifestyle (otherwise, they would be anchored out somewhere on a Brent boat). In any dialogue like this thread, there will always be some who go opposite from most others, and opposite to reason, as it appears to most of us. And these people are Brent's potential clients, and threads like these, with all the arguments, is how he can come into contact with these people. So, maybe, it's all about getting publicity, good or bad. It's business, you know. Do what you have to do to make the sale.


People in hollywood are also, often, just plane crazy. 









I don't doubt that his designs fit some people well, and frankly I think the world needs more iconoclasts and eccentrics. My first boat was one that only a mother (and the salty traditionalist types) could love and it even had a wood stove, so I can relate to much of what he says.

My first boat also had a design flaw (stan huntingford design one-off build) that led to me cracking an 8ft long crack in the hull during a storm. The boat almost sank. So, while I can relate, I also know from experience that yacht design is serious business. Life and death stuff.

Mr. Swain is not well received on the yacht design forums either, where many designers have issues with stability and capsize potential of some of his boats. As with Bob here, he doesn't seem able or willing to prove that he knows what he's doing from a theoretical standpoint, and for me, that's enough to walk.

Some jobs and professions you can learn by experience and trial and error. Yacht design, medicine, rocket science, etc are not some of them. I'd be worrying that *I* would be the one doing the trial and error.

MedSailor


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## Dirtyfloats

Life without a woodstove where I live would be unfathomably horrible. 
Wether on land, or in a boat, The damp will get you up here without one.
Theres nothing more peacful to me than rowing ashore in a secluded anchorage, with a powersaw and an axe amd filling the dinghy with beautiful smelling cedar.
Certainly more satisfying than going to a fuel dock!


----------



## bobperry

I couldn't see living without a wood stove either here in the PNW. I have hot water heated floors in my shack and I still like a fire at night. Just feels right. And the cat likes it.


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## MedSailor

A wise livaboard once told me that "If you don't have a really good way to heat the boat, they [girls] won't take their clothes off." 

"Would you like to come down to my yacht and sit by the fireplace and have a glass of wine" worked as a really good pickup line, even on my funky ugly on the outside boat. In fact, I used that line on one particular girl I was smitten with and she is now my wife. 

MedSailor


----------



## Brent Swain

I just talked to Steve 20 minutes ago. He sold the Silas Crosby months ago, quickly , shortly after listing her, for most of what he was asking . He said he hasn't visited his blog since he got back here in October.
Smack screws up again, as usual!
He also mentioned a friend who bought a plastic boat, cheap. He said the reason that it was so cheap , and slow to sell, was because of all the good things on it , in the eye of an experienced offshore cruiser , all of which would be considered bad points, by the marina queen crowd.


----------



## Brent Swain

I just read the maintenance story about the Roger Henry,. When he mentioned water siting on stringers, it was obvious that she didn't have sprayfoam insulation. Water just runs over it . Steel behind it stays dry. Doesn't sound like he had any sprayfoam at all in her. He mentions using a woven insulation, which would be waterlogged, and sopping wet full time in colder climes . Tried that once ,then pulled it out and sprayfoamed it. Did he have insulation that absorbent all along, ( which would inevitably cause sever rusting under it)? Doesn't sound like there was much paint inside at all ,from the outset. Thick epoxy over wheelabraded and zinc primed steel , with spray foam insulation, would have no such problems .
He mentioned having to take out thru hulls to sandblast . Welded in stainless pipe nipples would have no such problems , nor any problems.
He also mentioned a wooden bulwark, which is a huge mistake on any steel boat. Just running the topsides plate a bit higher ,with a stainless pipe cap on it works much better . That is a vulnerable place for a piece of wood.
No boat building material or method is immune from such mistakes. Get it right at the outset ,and you wont have a problem,. Most of his problems could have been easily avoided in the building stage.
He did say"The difference between an amateur and professional is not in the results, but in time spent." or words to that effect.
He'd be wise to keep an eye out for good brentboat , and make the switch while that boat is still worth something.


----------



## Brent Swain

Dirtyfloats said:


> Half inch stainless plate welded to the back section of cockpit seats.
> Gotta be able to hammer somwhere...
> Certainly wont dent that....


I have a heavily built aluminium propane locker in my cockpit , which I use for chopping wood on , as well as welding on, and it is my heat sink for my negative welder diodes. altho chopping wood on the beach works best.
No matter how damp my boat may get, an hour of roaring woodstove dries it out thoroughly. Nothing else does it as quickly.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Can't imagine you could.
> 
> It's common for me to design in vice mounts on my custom designs. Not places to chop wood though.


I've been meaning to weld up a stainless vise in my cockpit.


----------



## bobperry

This must be "stream of consciousness". I don't think I can follow.

Looking forward to racing FRANCIS on Saturday. Looking forward to St. Francis Yacht Club on Wednesday. That will be a nice trip.

CATARI the PSC 63'er has a great work bench with vice. Just like I designed it.


I'm busy. Getting over 100 hits a day on my blog. For what that is worth. I do have fun writing it.


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## Brent Swain

NCC320 said:


> Maybe, just maybe, people are underestimating Brent Swain. He probably truly believes most of what he says, even when it flies in the face of more knowledgeable people. But why would he come back again and again to get beat up and put down by lots of people here? Brent, no doubt, has a following of people who buy into his ideas and designs. The Origami method is kind of neat, but the end result is not what most of us want in a boat, never mind that they are super strong. And it almost looks to me, that he sometimes goes out of his way to make the boats unattractive. The oversized, painted handrails and those odd cabin tops are examples. And if getting beat up for his ideas isn't enough, he frequently insults some of the more knowledgeable people who publish here. So why does he do it? Look to Hollywood. If you are an actor, you need publicity and name recognition. Best if you get it for your work, but if not from there, any other source will do, good or bad. So lots of those people seem to go out of their way for press, bad press or any kind of press at all. Now, most people reading this forum list tend to side with boats like Bob Perry designs, and few really have the time or inclination to build their own boat, and most kind of like their lifestyle, even with work and mortgages, much better than they like Brent's lifestyle (otherwise, they would be anchored out somewhere on a Brent boat). In any dialogue like this thread, there will always be some who go opposite from most others, and opposite to reason, as it appears to most of us. And these people are Brent's potential clients, and threads like these, with all the arguments, is how he can come into contact with these people. So, maybe, it's all about getting publicity, good or bad. It's business, you know. Do what you have to do to make the sale.


Knowledgeable in marina dwelling and mortgage paying ,and knowledgeable in full time cruising, and maximizing ones free time , are two different kinds of knowledge.
Wanting fragile, decorative trip wires for lifelines ,is certainly not full time cruising knowledge. It is more "decorative" knowledge ( which can get you killed.) People with real long term cruising knowledge, would appreciate real lifelines, etc. 
Marina queensters would not, and are not people I would consider "Knowledgeable"in practical terms.


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## bobperry

Still angry Brent?

Our worlds will never collide. I respect yours but you seem to have zero respect for mine. That's fine. You are entitled to your own small world. I like a big world where lots of opinions and approaches can be accommodated. To each his own. Works for me.

124 hits on my blog today so far. I have to go now and watch hockey. Nitey nite.


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## outbound

Going to go head to head with the Luddite.
I live in New England where if you don't like the weather wait a minute it will change. While sailing have had days where you run both the A.C. and the heat in a given day.
House has forced hot water for heat. Prior houses the same. Have a camp heated with woodstove. Forced hot water is pretty much as fool proof as a mechanical system can be. Doesn't throw dust in the air and no dirt bringing fuel in and ash out. Wood takes a while to get going and awhile to stop generating heat. Often run heat/air for brief period for instance an hour before sleep when at anchor or just before taking off.
Guess what boat has the same with same result. 
Different parts of the house heat/cool differently. Guess what so does the boat. Nice to have multiple thermostats.
Human brain only functions well in a very limited range of temperature. A basic safety issue to have the inside of the boat kept within the range where your biology allows your homeostatic mechanisms to work without much effort.
Have 3 fireplaces in the house and a fire pit on the patio. Just for looks and cuddles time. Forced hot water or hydronic heat way more practical for someone who has a life.
Have mid sized boat. Don't have the space to waste on impracticality of wood.
Oh and wood throws more particulates and pollution in the air. Have wood lot at camp. Running 2 cycle chain saws aint great for the atmosphere either. Some jurisdictions are thinking of outlawing heating by wood the way Mr BS is doing.


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## bobperry

Brent has had plenty of time to post photos of his own boat but still nothing. I think he is a bit ashamed and doesn't want to show us. Don;t know how else to read his reluctance. He has time to talk ad nauseum but he can't push some buttons to post a pic?


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## JonEisberg

Brent Swain said:


> Wanting fragile, decorative trip wires for lifelines ,is certainly not full time cruising knowledge. It is more "decorative" knowledge ( which can get you killed.) People with real long term cruising knowledge, would appreciate real lifelines, etc.


Damn, people like Evans Starzinger on HAWK, and John Neal on MAHINA TIARE, must be painfully slow learners, then... Roughly half a million offshore miles between them, and they _STILL_ haven't gleaned one of the fundamentals of "real long term cruising knowledge"...

Fortunately for them, they must possess considerably more situational awareness, and be less klutzy moving about their decks, than Brent's 4 friends "lost due to inadequate lifelines"...


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## MedSailor

JonEisberg said:


> Damn, people like Evans Starzinger on HAWK, and John Neal on MAHINA TIARE, must be painfully slow learners, then... Roughly half a million offshore miles between them, and they _STILL_ haven't gleaned one of the fundamentals of "real long term cruising knowledge"...


You forgot Morgan's Cloud. Also wire lifelines.









Now, while it's fun to pile on here with everybody else for a laugh, I can't actually get behind the argument that solid rails are bad. Sure they can be aesthetically displeasing if done poorly, but so can lifelines. Netting and zip ties anyone? Staying aboard is critical. Fall overboard and die. Sure, whatever is at the edge of the boat is only there as a last resort, but for this type of last resort insurance, rails seem superior to lifelines in every way to me.

Nauticats have them and they look quite nice I think.









MedSailor


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## bobperry

Med:
I too see the benefits of solid life lines. I like the way they are done on the Nauticat. But done in steel and painted like you see on BS boats is not an attractive look. Done is s.s. they can look quite nice on boat over 45'. On many of my custom design I extend the stern pulpit forward to about where you would climb out of the cockpit.


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## christian.hess

aaaah threads are fun...now its about lifelines...I remember posting that some boats dont even come with them and did fine for cruising(with appropriate jacklines, harnesses etc...) and got thrown to the wolves for that comment

now its about having grab rails chest height up on each side of the boat in stainless or nothing else!

jajajajaja


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## Dirtyfloats

For me, I wouldn't want anything BUT solid lifelines. 
No reason in the world that I can see to not be as safe as possible.
They also make getting in and out of a dinghy tremendously easy.
And yes, I built mine out of stainless steel pipe.

Maybe for experienced sailors trip lines are adequate, or maybe they are comfortable enough on a boat that they need nothing at all. 
That being said, I still like the idea of taking my aging mother out for sails, and wouldnt want to do it on anything without the security of solid handrails.

P.S. As far as posting pictures goes, Do they have to be hosted elsewhere on the internet? I cant seem to upload them from my computer to a post?


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## bobperry

Dirty:
I use "photobucket.com". It's very easy. If I can do it anyone can. You go to photobucket and upload your photo into their program. Then you just click and paste on your text here where you want the photo. There is really nothing to it. It gives you nice big photos.


This is my Australian friend Trickypig at my shack proud of his crab catch.


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## SloopJonB

Life rails, especially when capped with varnished "dead vegitation" look very well on motor yachts and motorsailers - better in many cases than lifelines.

IMO they NEVER look well on pure sailboats although big stern pulpits going well forward look well on "poop deck" type sterns.


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## MedSailor

Dirtyfloats said:


> P.S. As far as posting pictures goes, Do they have to be hosted elsewhere on the internet? I cant seem to upload them from my computer to a post?


I use Google Image Search. Basically, you enter your search term like "Morgan's cloud" and when google gives you a list of results, you'll see a horizontal bar across the top. Web [results] will be what is selected. You can click on images and it'll give you a few hundred pictures that it thinks match your search term.

It can be a great way to search the web as well. For example if you see a friend wearing a unique new sailing harness but don't know what it's called, you can do a google image search for "sailing harness" and when you see the funky looking picture of the Spinlock you can click on it to find out it's name and find out more.

For adding pictures to web posts, do your image search, and once you get to the website that has the picture, right click on it and select "copy image URL." Then when constructing your post, click the yellow square picture icon above the text window where you're typing your reply and paste in the copied URL. Voila! you'll have pictures in your post!

MedSailor


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## Brent Swain

I don't think I would "enjoy" spending a million dollars on a yacht, while children were starving around me. To "enjoy"that would take a life form considerably below that of a cockroach.


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## Brent Swain

JonEisberg said:


> Damn, people like Evans Starzinger on HAWK, and John Neal on MAHINA TIARE, must be painfully slow learners, then... Roughly half a million offshore miles between them, and they _STILL_ haven't gleaned one of the fundamentals of "real long term cruising knowledge"...
> 
> Fortunately for them, they must possess considerably more situational awareness, and be less klutzy moving about their decks, than Brent's 4 friends "lost due to inadequate lifelines"...


At one time the most qualified and knowledgeable people in the world though the world was flat and the sun and planets went around it!
Have any of your heroes experienced sailing with proper ,solid lifelines?


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## bobperry

" To "enjoy"that would take a life form considerably below that of a cockroach."

Bot Brent. Still angry? That statement is pathetic. You have no idea of the philanthropy of some of these people. You are very small minded.

Where are the photos of your boat? Waiting.


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Going to go head to head with the Luddite.
> I live in New England where if you don't like the weather wait a minute it will change. While sailing have had days where you run both the A.C. and the heat in a given day.
> House has forced hot water for heat. Prior houses the same. Have a camp heated with woodstove. Forced hot water is pretty much as fool proof as a mechanical system can be. Doesn't throw dust in the air and no dirt bringing fuel in and ash out. Wood takes a while to get going and awhile to stop generating heat. Often run heat/air for brief period for instance an hour before sleep when at anchor or just before taking off.
> Guess what boat has the same with same result.
> Different parts of the house heat/cool differently. Guess what so does the boat. Nice to have multiple thermostats.
> Human brain only functions well in a very limited range of temperature. A basic safety issue to have the inside of the boat kept within the range where your biology allows your homeostatic mechanisms to work without much effort.
> Have 3 fireplaces in the house and a fire pit on the patio. Just for looks and cuddles time. Forced hot water or hydronic heat way more practical for someone who has a life.
> Have mid sized boat. Don't have the space to waste on impracticality of wood.
> Oh and wood throws more particulates and pollution in the air. Have wood lot at camp. Running 2 cycle chain saws aint great for the atmosphere either. Some jurisdictions are thinking of outlawing heating by wood the way Mr BS is doing.


Only different pats of UNINSULATED boats cool and heat significantly differently. I would not try to live aboard that kind of boat.Turning my galley stove on raises the temperature quickly, till the wood stove kicks in. Not having to hurry off to work, polluting the whole way there and back to pay for expensive heating fuels , lets me stay in bed until things warm up. The oil industry is not exactly easy on the environment . Nor is providing a market for it.
The environmental impact of building my boat and the material which went into it was a one shot deal 30 years ago. Since then it has been microscopic compared to what it would have been had I not built her.
http:www.latitude38.com/lectronic/lectronicday.lasso?date=2014-05-23#

http://www.latitude38.com/features/nzstorm.htm

Is what happens to non metal boats in severe conditions, or when you hit a rock, none of which would have happened had the boats been steel.


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## bobperry

Waiting for photos BS. Are you ashamed of your boat?


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Just occasionally.


Internet bullies tend to become instant cowards, when face to face with their targets.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> I think solid rails can look fine done in s.s.. The painted steel rails on the BS boats look heavy and crude. I certainly understand the application and benefits.
> 
> That blue BS boat looks OK except for the butt ugly dodger.


Last time I put galvanized lifelines on one of my boats was 1984. All have been stainless since then.
Yes Bob, that boat would look much better with a proper wheelhouse.


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## bobperry

You see Brent, Out likes his boat and he likes the way it is heated. He doesn't want to heat it your way. But I'm sure he could care a less how you heat your boat. While you get all bent out of shape because he has his own way as you have yours. Most of us don't want to be BS guys. But we don't hold your style personally against you. It's just a different, not wrong, not right, way of doing things. I call this diversity. I like a live and let live approach. There are lots of ways to go sailing.

Tomorrow we race FRANCIS for the first time. I am excited. It doesn't matter that this boat does not suit every taste. All that matters is that it suits Kim's taste and my taste. That's why you do custom boats.

Come on Brent post one Photo of your boat.
Or, post some "design drawings" for your boat. You must have some. What do you have to hide?


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Still angry Brent?
> 
> Our worlds will never collide. I respect yours but you seem to have zero respect for mine. That's fine. You are entitled to your own small world. I like a big world where lots of opinions and approaches can be accommodated. To each his own. Works for me.
> 
> 124 hits on my blog today so far. I have to go now and watch hockey. Nitey nite.


Bob I have the greatest respect for your ability to design mass produced stock plastic boats. In that field you are one of the best. You just know nothing about long term living aboard,cruising in, designing , maintaining and building practical steel boats.( the subject of this discussion)


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Internet bullies tend to become instant cowards, when face to face with their targets.


Heh-heh. I'm sure some of them do. Even though I like to hammer on your outlandish claims and silly insults, I'd still buy you a beer. It doesn't have to be personal.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I don't think I would "enjoy" spending a million dollars on a yacht, while children were starving around me. To "enjoy"that would take a life form considerably below that of a cockroach.


But you enjoy your ice cream and won't share it with those starving children? Who's the cockroach here?



Brent Swain said:


> At one time the most qualified and knowledgeable people in the world though the world was flat and the sun and planets went around it!


Like those who self-righteously think that steel represents a small carbon footprint? Seriously?



Brent Swain said:


> The oil industry is not exactly easy on the environment . Nor is providing a market for it.


But ore mines and steel mills are squeaky clean!




























This is what Brent's boats do to our environment. It's shameful. Please don't follow his anti-aboriginal ways. Buy a production FG sailboat or have Bob design you a custom one. Love the earth. Don't BS all over it.

Little Timmy (who digs up the ore for Brent's boats with his bare little hands) thanks you. He'll finally be able to go cruising himself instead of supporting BS's opulent ice-cream-soaked lifestyle.


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## bobperry

Brent:
Because you have nothing to show you resort to ridiculous personal attacks like:

" To "enjoy"that would take a life form considerably below that of a cockroach."

Who are you talking about?
Do you know these people?
Do you know exactly where their money goes?
No, I am very certain you have no idea at all.
You might be very surprised.

But that doesn't stop you from making hyper judgmental accusations.

Get back to the subject. Post some pics of your boat and show us your design skills.
Or not.

It's the "pros and cons" Brent and I am here to represent the cons so get used to it. Time for you to show us the pros. Or not. So far you are all talk.

The irony is I have no problem with your lifestyle. I think most of your boats are crude cobbled together home built odd boat. Some of them look quite nice. They are simply not my preferred style of boat. Lots of boats could fit in there. But this condemnation of every varying approach to yachting is really small minded. You need to look around and realize that it is a big world with lots of opinions and tastes.

Pasta Putanesca tonight or "whorehouse pasta". It's one of my specialties. I hope. I had better run and get the sauce going. Have a good night Brent. Sorry you can't join us for dinner. It would be a kick in the pants.


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## MedSailor

smackdaddy said:


> Heh-heh. I'm sure some of them do. Even though I like to hammer on your outlandish claims and silly insults, I'd still buy you a beer. It doesn't have to be personal.


Me too! I think the world needs more iconoclasts (which Brent is in spades) and eccentrics. I'll buy the man a beer if I ever get the chance. (I'd also sneak a small camera so I could get a photo of his boat for Bob.) 

MedSailor


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## bobperry

I'll send you a camera Med.


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## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> Heh-heh. I'm sure some of them do. Even though I like to hammer on your outlandish claims and silly insults, I'd still buy you a beer. It doesn't have to be personal.


Here's a new avatar for you Smacker.


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## bobperry

No. I'm not going to say anything.


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## shank32095

I don't know fellas but the little bit of BS that I have heard from BS I have absolutely no inclination to buy or especially have a beer with him. You must be kidding me. He is an incredibly obnoxious, boring entitlement moron. Come spend an hour sailing on my boat with my Irish arse and lets' so who is the coward or better yet come stay a while talking smack down in Salvador-Bahia where I have a home. I guarantee you won't be lonely for long.
Let's see a pic of your boat BS or STFU.


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## christian.hess

dude people RELAX! 

where is the pro and con of steel boats in any of these posts? jajajajajajaja

I like the back and forth between designers, input from those with experience with different materials in which boats are made...and what some materials excel at etc...

but man!


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## outbound

Brent you took a shot at me so feel justified to reply. 
1. My boat is fully insulated. Deck is divinylcell cored. You may be so ignorant to not not realize cored structures have significant R value. Although hull is solid glass a non structural core is applied as well.
2. Not being a naval,architect you may not realize one of the very important features of a comfortable boat is adequate ventilation down below. That issue plus single source heating will result in a boat such as yours. It will heat and then retain heat to an uncomfortable degree or be unevenly heated hot near the heat source and cold at the ends. 
3. Any reasonable wood stove will take time to heat it's mass and considerable time to cool. No running the heat for 5minutes just to take the chill off.
4. I like the saloon warm for folks coming off watch or hanging out but the staterooms a few degrees cooler for sleeping. Must folks do. Boat was designed with 3 zones. Just like in a house.

Btw- in your whole life have you saved any lives? Have you added to the science and knowledge of the world? Have you run any free clinics? ? What have have you given to the common good?


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## bobperry

"I like the back and forth between designers,"

Ok, I'm a designer but who is the other guy you are referring to. A designer has designs to show. He shows off his design work. I have never seen anything from BS to show he is a designer. Nothing. He builds boats. Designers have designs. A DESIGNER DESIGNS, BS is a hack builder.

But I would definitely have a beer with him. But he doesn't drink.


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## christian.hess

semantics at this point, I hear ya...but I just havent read any input design wise, material wise, or basically anything related to steel boat building in the last I dunnoo 100 pages of this thread?

jajaja

peace


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## Dirtyfloats

Well, to me what really makes the deal is using a material you enjoy working with! Whether building a boat or buying one, we all know that you will have to work on it (well maybe not some of the more wealthy people) so pick a material you like working with! personally i hate fiberglass. Absolutely disgusting stuff. Putting the odd patch on my little dinghy is more than i ever want to do! i enjoy wood, but have little experience doing any kind of fine wood work.
So, for me steel is the best material. I enjoy working with it, its readily available, and going to give me the strongest and product possible.


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## christian.hess

well I can only add this

I have ALWAYS wanted to build my own steel boat...perfect for high latitde sailing but also be able to putz around in the trades and the tropics

in the end when crunching numbers, even with labor down here and cheap places to build the boat etc...by the time all was said and done it was always more expensive than a used cruising boat that are a dime a dozen in the market

so from a frugal perspective and or a budget perspective building will always be more expensive no matter how you cut it...

someday though Id love to do it, and take great pride and honor in doing so...

logistically though it would be a nightmare for me down here, with shipping masts and rigging and specialty parts and all

unless I go full out motissier with telephone poles for masts and whatnot...even then...

peace


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## Jaramaz

Well,

I am at 60 deg North, I do not want to go further in that direction. As it is, it is more than enougth. South it is! Warm and nice, wine! More, pls!

On steel or not, no I do not want to build any steel barge. Plenty to watch around, most are rusty old "possibilities". Here we see a lot of Roberts designs floating around. Some good, some disasters. That is the way it is with homebuilt. 

In fact, I would prefer not to own any steel. Plastic is good. A very forgiving material to work with. (Oh, I have done wood and steel, wood is wonderful to work with, really, but steel is ... steel. ). 

Now, after a long day polishing the plasitc I resting with a nice G&T. Summer is coming. 

/J


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## smackdaddy

Everyone knows you never go Full Moitessier.


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## christian.hess

smackdaddy said:


> Everyone knows you never go Full Moitessier.


it really should be a nautical term or sailing term...

"full motissier"

I like it but agree

hard to go full out like that


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## SloopJonB

One thing that has only been pointed out by implication on this thread was described very succinctly on another thread a while back;

Building a boat is only for people who WANT to build a boat, not for people who want to get a boat cheaply.

Even if nothing out there exactly fits your needs & desires, with the massive number of different boats already in existence there has to be something close that you can customize to meet your needs.

That will always be vastly cheaper and faster than building anything from scratch - in any material.

Last year I bought a glass 30' blue water boat that needed little more than sprucing up and provisioning before one could head out.

The raw steel to build something similar in a Brentboat would cost more than I have in it.


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## christian.hess

I sold a very nicely kept and outfitted plastic classic of 34 feet with windvane, autohelm, all sorts of heavy duty cruising gear, dodger blah blah blah that need what a few things to get going and that was that

for $8k

you cant argue with that by any means

building a boat is like a hobby, its for passion and your pride not for saving a buck for sure


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## smackdaddy

So I'm flying back from Washington DC today on American - sitting in first class, drinking a scotch, reading Sieferts "200 Passage Making Tips", and looking forward to spending the weekend on my really nice, non-rusty fiberglass boat next week with my boys...and I think...this "consumerism treadmill" I'm on is pretty damn nice.


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## SloopJonB

On an episode of Dharma & Greg, her father referred to First as "Ruling Class". 

Guess what we have called it ever since.


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## bobperry

"but I just havent read any input design wise, material wise, or basically anything related to steel boat building in the last I dunnoo 100 pages of this thread?"

Christian:
Come on. Brent has made numerous, cogent and interesting posts on steel boatbuilding technique and details recently. I enjoy them and always learn something from them. Just dig around. They are there buried in the BS.

By the way FRANCIS kicked ass today in the very first race. *First to finish by miles.* No BS.
First to finish and first on corrected time. And all this without a spinnaker! Wait till we fly our chutes.
Now we are paying for them with our rating and not carrying them. The boat is a rocket and a gem to drive.

Oh yeah, *First on corrected time too* against boats carrying chutes.


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## SloopJonB

Congrats.

Do the words "Rating adjustment" ring any bells?


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## bobperry

Damn Jon. Be quiet.


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## djodenda

Congratulations to Kim and Bob..

How about Race to the Straits next week?

We'll be there.

I will take pictures while you go by!


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## bobperry

Denda:
Not doing that race.
Booms and WHL will be down for the next race.

FRANCIS is not a race boat and was never intended to be raced. I think curiosity and some peer pressure (me) pushed Kim into racing the boat. I cant see it having a career as a race boat. But for now, racing gives us the opportunity to push the boat to the max and makes sure that everything works (pad eye?) while building Kim's confidence in the capabilities of the boat and learning how to get the most out of it.

I'm certain some here will disagree with me but I truly think you can only fully understand and appreciate a boat's performance if you race the boat. I'm totally confident in that statement.


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## djodenda

Gotcha

Was the Point Wilson Rip running? If so, how did she handle the lumpy stuff?


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## bobperry

Denda:
We went to Possession. and didn't have tide to battle. We had a nice flood the whole way home. We did hit some lumpy stuff just north of Apple Tree Cove. The boat pounded a few times, like I said it would. But I was always looking for the right groove and it seemed that as I bore off to gain some boat speed the boat pounded more. Maybe it was the speed increase, maybe it was the angle of the boat to the waves. I couldn't figure it out. I finally decide the better groove was the tight one.


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## djodenda

We had dinner at the Space Needle last night to celebrate my son Mark's 18th birthday. We were looking for you, but I guess you finished way before we got there!

I will take a moment to brag:

Mark wrote a race starting app for his project in Computer Science... It displays the flag sequence, has a countdown timer, and predicts time to the starting line...


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## christian.hess

cool!


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## bobperry

Handsome kid you have their Denda. I'd be damn proud too.
Brag on pal. I wonder if Mark has seen B.J. Porter's starting sequence app? It has been in use for some time now.


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## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> i'm certain some here will disagree with me but i truly think you can only fully understand and appreciate a boat's performance if you race the boat. I'm totally confident in that statement.


+1.


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## christian.hess

even if you think its slow as a turd! jajajaja


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## bobperry

Christian:
That's the best way to find out exactly how slow it is.


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## outbound

Back to steel
My boats been out of the water but now with 2 coats on the bottom ( oh my aching back) and new zincs she's splashes soon. While waiting for sensation to come back in my arms or paint to dry would walk over and see how the yard was doing to fixed some dents in a steel trawler. Between building a tent then cutting,welding, prepping, priming and painting they were at for quite some time. It wasn't a big dent. Boat banged into piling while in its slip I believe.
Next to me is a V 40. She took a deep 10' scrape. One guy grounded it out then laid in new glass,then gel coat. Got moved inside for paint. Painted and now waiting to splash.
Surprised me fixing the glass boat took less time and labor.


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## bobperry

Thanks Out. Some reality never hurts.


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## JonEisberg

smackdaddy said:


> So I'm flying back from Washington DC today on American - sitting in first class, drinking a scotch, reading Sieferts "200 Passage Making Tips", and looking forward to spending the weekend on my really nice, non-rusty fiberglass boat next week with my boys...and I think...this "consumerism treadmill" I'm on is pretty damn nice.


You must be some lifeform lower than a cockroach, if you can savor your First Class scotch and victuals, while children are starving 30,000 feet beneath you...


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## bobperry

Hey cockroach:

Good on ya. This is not a rehearsal. This is your life. Make of it what you can.

My Australian Grandma used to say, "Eat your bread crust. Think of the starving children in China." I'd think, "Ok grandma ( we actually called he "Muddy"" OK Muddy,those kids can have my bread crusts."

She also used to tell me, "Eat your bread crusts. It will make your hair curly." Right.


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Heh-heh. I'm sure some of them do. Even though I like to hammer on your outlandish claims and silly insults, I'd still buy you a beer. It doesn't have to be personal.


Check some of Smacks ( and Bob's) posts attacking me.They are VERY personal, to which I feel the right to respond in kind.
No Bob , reponding in kind doesnt make me 'Angy", just believing in a balanced debate.


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## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Back to steel
> My boats been out of the water but now with 2 coats on the bottom ( oh my aching back) and new zincs she's splashes soon. While waiting for sensation to come back in my arms or paint to dry would walk over and see how the yard was doing to fixed some dents in a steel trawler. Between building a tent then cutting,welding, prepping, priming and painting they were at for quite some time. It wasn't a big dent. Boat banged into piling while in its slip I believe.
> Next to me is a V 40. She took a deep 10' scrape. One guy grounded it out then laid in new glass,then gel coat. Got moved inside for paint. Painted and now waiting to splash.
> Surprised me fixing the glass boat took less time and labor.


My boat will be 30 years old on May 12th, I have hit a lot of rocks, some at hull speed ,and I have had no such repairs to do . 
Takes a flimsy steel boat to be dented by a piling. Mine have hit huge logs in the night, and when I tie up to a log boom, I find the best way is to T- bone it at hull speed. No problems resulting! Pilings are like hitting a huge pillow. They give a lot. Done that , deliberately, no problem.Your story sounds like a load of crap!
Plastic stock boats are ideal for people who live stock plastic lifestyles ( Tie it up in a marina, live in a house ,and go to work every day ,to pay the rent, moorage , insurance payments, car expenses, etc., rarely leaving the dock, then only for brief periods in perfect weather, you know, the stock , plastic lifestyles Bob and Smack live, the only ones they have any long term experience with.) The further you get from such a stock plastic existence, the less a stock plastic boat will suit your needs.

In reading Bob and Smacks posts, one should bear in mind that neither have any long term experience in steel boats, not building, nor maintaining, nor long term cruising in one. For that kind of experience , I would suggest that the reader go to the origamiboats site( yahoo groups)
where the participants have a lot of actual experience in the subject at hand, and one of the few sites which doesn't discourage innovation and thinking outside the box ( where Bob quickly got his ass kicked when he tried to pass himself off as someone who understands steel boats.) 
While Bob is, no doubt, one of the top plastic boat designers in the world ,he knows nothing about steel boats. Having him give advice on steel boats is like hiring the top dentist in the world to do heart surgery .
My friends have said that seeing his goupie Smack, grovel to Bob, and lick his boots ( along with who knows what else ) was enough to make them want to puke!


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Brent:
> 
> It would be a kick in the pants.


Another threat by the potbellied old "Karate dancing athelete" They are adding up. I'm collecting them!
The diversions I make from steel boat building are all in reponse to personal attacks against me and my methods. If the moderator were to cleanup this discussion, by deleting anything not related to the original question, it would be a very valuable thread, and improve this site considerably. I have seen that done on other sites.
It would mean deleting most of Bob and Smack's posts.
So be it!


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> Plastic stock boats are ideal for people who live stock plastic lifestyles ( Tie it up in a marina, live in a house ,and go to work every day ,to pay the rent, moorage , insurance payments, car expenses, etc., rarely leaving the dock, then only for brief periods in perfect weather, you know, the stock , plastic lifestyles Bob and Smack live, the only ones they have any long term experience with.) The further you get from such a stock plastic existence, the less a stock plastic boat will suit your needs.


I have an uninsured, semi-custom plastic boat, don't really like sailing in bad weather, like my car as much as my boat and no longer have to work - does that mean I live a semi-custom plastic lifestyle?


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Check some of Smacks ( and Bob's) posts attacking me.They are VERY personal, to which I feel the right to respond in kind.


Where have I thrown you a "VERY personal" attack? Anything I've accused you of, I've backed it up with examples from your own posts. That's not a personal attack, that's just presenting the truth.

Go ahead and pull one of these "VERY personal attacks" of mine and let's see what you mean.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Another threat by the potbellied old "Karate dancing athelete".
> 
> It would mean deleting most of Bob and Smack's posts.
> So be it!


Heh-heh. Oh Brent. You're silly.


----------



## smackdaddy

djodenda said:


> We had dinner at the Space Needle last night to celebrate my son Mark's 18th birthday. We were looking for you, but I guess you finished way before we got there!
> 
> I will take a moment to brag:
> 
> Mark wrote a race starting app for his project in Computer Science... It displays the flag sequence, has a countdown timer, and predicts time to the starting line...


Djo - freakin' awesome. That is what it's all about.


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## SloopJonB

Naaahhhh - nice weather and not a weld in sight.


----------



## JonEisberg

Brent Swain said:


> My boat will be 30 years old on May 12th, *I have hit a lot of rocks, some at hull speed *,and I have had no such repairs to do .


One of the downsides of everyone going to e-charting, I suppose... Folks apparently aren't tossing paper charts into dumpsters with the frequency they used to...

Damn, if I kept hitting rocks with my boat, I'd consider taking up a different pastime...


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## mitiempo

Brent Swain said:


> My boat will be 30 years old on May 12th, I have hit a lot of rocks, some at hull speed ,and I have had no such repairs to do .
> Takes a flimsy steel boat to be dented by a piling. Mine have hit huge logs in the night, and when I tie up to a log boom, I find the best way is to T- bone it at hull speed. No problems resulting! Pilings are like hitting a huge pillow. They give a lot. Done that , deliberately, no problem.


So that's why so many of Brent's designs end up on the rocks! Everybody who owns one follows Brent's example.


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## bobperry

Brent:
"It would be a kick in the pants" is an expression meaning "it would be fun". Nothing more than that. You are delusional. You place far too much importance on yourself. 

Photos of your boat?

"No Bob , reponding in kind doesnt make me 'Angy", just believing in a balanced debate. "
I never called you "angy".
I called you "angry".
You type like you are either drunk or stupid. I'm going to go with stupid. I offer this next BS quote to support my claim.

" when I tie up to a log boom, I find the best way is to T- bone it at hull speed." BS
I think this pretty well sums up BS's IQ in a nutshell. 

I'll stay here Brent to balance your BS.

First to finish and first on corrected time!
Bet you have never done that Brent. It feels good.


----------



## outbound

Brent I'm sorry to impose some reality into your fantasy land. Last fall we had a series of storms past through our region. 60+kts. at times. Boat reference is light ice certified to my knowledge. 60' trawler. Massively built with plate in excess of your designs. Lost mooring lines and pounded. Your boats with no framing would be a total loss. One of the advantages of metal boats is their plasticity.yes you build more plastic boats. In engineering terms ability to deform without puncture or total structural failure . In short steel has the advantage of being more plastic then grp or composite construction . But when deformed it stretches making difficulties in repair. Given your boats have no framing after deformation it is highly problematic they could ever be returned to original fairness as the deformed plate is now thinner and longer/wider than in its original,form. You would have to cut out the excess material or part stretched would be thinner and less strong. With framed boats you can cut out to nearest frame and replace with new plate returning to original strength.This is a fundamental flaw in origami designs.
Btw glass does remarkably well when hitting glancing blows by flotsam. Had a t37 which hit a telephone pole at hull speed. Scratch in the bottom paint.
Please stop burning wood and adding to climate change.given you hold me responsible for others suffering when my life's work has been to decrease suffering I hold you personally responsible for the increase in violent weather we see. Think of all the children you are killing.


----------



## outbound

Oh and Brent the other fantasy you have which I find endlessly annoying is you stability rant.
Steel is heavy. Weight above the waterline contributes negatively to stability. Unlike framed construction where you can vary hull plate thickness from what I understand in origami you cannot. In all steel construction until you get into large boats the weight steel creates tender boats unless much greater amounts of ballast or very deep keels are employed. Twin keels can mitigate this to some degree but at the expense of increased wetted surface,more drag and poorer performance.
Pull down your pants and show us a GZ curve or a certified number such as a LPS(IMS). Mines 127. That's for a real boat in true sailing condition.
Suspect any of your boats are much worse than that. So put up or shut up.


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## bobperry

Stability curve?
Holy cow Out, we can't even get a photo of his boat. We can't get a single design drawing out of him. If he has no drawings I don't see how he could have a stability curve. Besides he admits to having a math problem so anything like a stability curve coming from Brent would most likely be pure BS. Designers have stability curves BS has zero.


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## Brent Swain

smackdaddy said:


> Djo - freakin' awesome. That is what it's all about.


What does this have to do with pros and cons of steel sailboats? Its more like deliberate thread diversion or thread "sabotage" than thread drift.


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## MedSailor

Brent Swain said:


> What does this have to do with pros and cons of steel sailboats? Its more like deliberate thread diversion or thread "sabotage" than thread drift.


The world is not a conspiracy against you Brent. I know you've been on SailNet long enough to see that it is moderated with a loose leash, and most people here like it that way. Plenty of threads have wandered into recipes, racing stories etc, and back to topic. It's part of what makes SailNet fun and unique.

MedSailor


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> Stability curve?
> Holy cow Out, we can't even get a photo of his boat. We can't get a single design drawing out of him. If he has no drawings I don't see how he could have a stability curve. Besides he admits to having a math problem so anything like a stability curve coming from Brent would most likely be pure BS. Designers have stability curves BS has zero.


Tried downloading a photo from my old computer. Doesn't work. Wouldn't upload. I'll have to get Pat the computer whiz to sort it out. 
As I have mentioned many times , I give a stability curve with my plans. It has been posted on the origamiboats site. Bob refused to post the stability curve of Franky, which according to his comments, proves it doesn't exist.
Few boats designed before 1980 had ultimate stability curves. Does that mean they all sunk? 
There are several photos of my boat on the origamiboats site.
Interesting that the only pros of steel sailboats here are mainly from the only guys here with actual experience in long term building and cruising in steel, while the only cons are from those with almost zero experience in the subject, quoting old wives tales and disinformation from plastic boat salesmen.
Conclusion? Only pros posted here have any real, experience based credibility!


----------



## bobperry

Relax Brent. If you can. Life is all about thread drift, get used to it. Or not and just go on being angry. I post things that I consider the "cons" of steel boats. I intend to post things that show an alternative to steel.

You can't post a photo of your own boat so you are not really doing your cause any good with your constant bitter, rambling attacks.


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## bobperry

I can assure you Brent, as can Kim, that we have multiple VPP runs for FRANCIS and each includes a stability curve. Anybody who wants to see it can PM me and I will be happy to email it to them. But not you Brent. I'm not here to do you favors.

Shank:
Want to see a VPP for FRANCIS? PM me. I'll send you the whole thing.


----------



## Brent Swain

JonEisberg said:


> One of the downsides of everyone going to e-charting, I suppose... Folks apparently aren't tossing paper charts into dumpsters with the frequency they used to...
> 
> Damn, if I kept hitting rocks with my boat, I'd consider taking up a different pastime...


Most use the urban marina queen solution for avoiding rocks. That is, to rarely leave the marina, and only do so in perfect conditions. With steel boats, hitting the odd rock is of zero consequence, so we don't sail in fear of doing so. Naturally, letting ones guard down, below the level of paranoia, means we will have greater odds of making the odd contact. Cruising year round instead of leaving our bots in marinas 11 months a year also increase the odds of the occasional rock contact. If the consequences are zero , who cares?
Makes for far more carefree and relaxed cruising.
I remember going to a Bluewater Cruising Association meet on Gambier Island. All the plastic boaters had crews lining the rail with fenders, to prevent the log booms from contacting their fragile hulls.I sailed around the end of the boom and T- boned it at hull speed. My boat rode up over it and parked. I tied my bow line thru a ring and wandered over to visit friends. The boat eventually bumped her way back into the water and laid alongside the boom. Later, I was told that many plastic boaters seeing this, said "That's the kind of boat we need!"


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## bobperry

Very nice feature piece on FRANCIS on this German on line mag.
Braschosblog | SegelReporter
I read "Wagnerian" German so I get the gist of it. They like it a lot.

I think there is an English translation option.


----------



## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> I can assure you Brent, as can Kim, that we have multiple VPP runs for FRANCIS and each includes a stability curve. Anybody who wants to see it can PM me and I will be happy to email it to them. But not you Brent. I'm not here to do you favors.
> 
> Shank:
> Want to see a VPP for FRANCIS? PM me. I'll send you the whole thing.


Yes Bob, and likewise ,anyone who wants to see a picture of my boat and a stability curve can check out the origamiboats site.
No ,you wont post Frankie's stability curve here, because it would back up my claim that a narrow beam and trunk cabin, eliminates AVS concerns.


----------



## SloopJonB

Brent Swain said:


> All the plastic boaters had crews lining the rail with fenders, to prevent the log booms from contacting their fragile hulls.


It wasn't because of fragility Brent, it was because they took some pride in their boats appearance.

It's hard to explain, you either get it or you don't.

You don't.


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## djodenda

I know enough German to mostly understand it, but lack the guts/skills to post a translation..


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## SloopJonB

I'm afraid to ask what the "enten-popo" it comes with is.


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## bobperry

"No ,you wont post Frankie's stability curve here, because it would back up my claim that a narrow beam and trunk cabin, eliminates AVS concerns." BS

No, I won't post it here primarily to annoy you. By now you must have realized I'm not here to pander to your problems.

I don't think anyone familiar with stability studies disputes that narrow beam boats, providing they have a low VCG, have good stability numbers. That's common knowledge. I don't recall anyone disputing that. It most certainly is not a BS "revelation". Maybe you just figured it out. Catch up.



You can't provide a set of lines but you can provide a stability curve? I would be highly skeptical of a stability curve coming from a hack who proposed a reasonable AVS of "182 degrees". Your words Brent, not mine. I still laugh when I type it. Clearly Brent you have a tenuous at best grasp of stability numbers. But as you keep reminding us, you have a math problem. No ****ski.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Yes Bob, and likewise ,anyone who wants to see a picture of my boat and a stability curve can check out the origamiboats site.
> No ,you wont post Frankie's stability curve here, because it would back up my claim that a narrow beam and trunk cabin, eliminates AVS concerns.


I've checked out your site Brent - and have been through all the galleries. Where are your photos? I've looked through the galleries and don't see anything (see attachment).

I did find a couple of photos of your boat *from 13 years ago* (from a great distance -see attached) that Alex uploaded - but nothing that would show the recent pristine condition you claim your boat to currently be in.

Again, you're not being honest. It would be wonderful if you could just start there...for once.


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## bobperry

Smacker:
I don't think Brent can be honest. He doesn't have it in him. It's congenital. He's been a liar for so long it all seems real to him now. I'm pretty sure he doesn't know the difference. Just make it up and say it. Hell, he makes up things I say!


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## smackdaddy

What kind of "customer" would sink their life savings into this guy's promises PURELY on a "just trust me" basis - when it's been proven over and over again in this thread that most of his claims don't stand up to even the slightest scrutiny?


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## SloopJonB

Two of his boats pictured at Fanning says something about them.

That blue hulled one looks like one of Samson's better builds in ferro - the C-Ghost IIRC. Could be a pretty decent looking boat with a bit of properly coloured paint.

What is it with the number of Brent's clients who like to paint their boats ugly/weird colours?

Let the blind jokes begin.


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## djodenda

SloopJonB said:


> What is it with the number of Brent's clients who like to paint their boats ugly/weird colours?


I really like the dark/bold colors. They seem to "fit" with the boat style.


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## mark2gmtrans

Well guys, it has been a long time since I was able to actually do much more than scan over the postings for the day here on my emails. I have missed the conversations, in fact i missed them so much that here in the next few days when my current contract ends I am going to be working less, and I will be able to be on here a bit more often.

I am looking forward to travelling again, and getting out of Laredo, it was all good while 2/3s of you were freezing your keisters off this winter that seemed not to want to give up, but it hit 100 today and not the first time so it is time to leave.

Good to see that all my sailnet friends are having fun, Bob, Smack, JonB, and good BS. I see a few new faces, and it is good to have more folks to talk about what we all love. I am looking forward to going sailing with a couple of friends later in the summer. I hope to be able to send some of those photos that everyone loves to see.

Bob, your latest design is awesome as usual, race on if you can peer pressure Kim into it LOL. I would love to see photos of her under full sail, I know she is fast just from the few photos I have seen. I am still working my way to purchasing, and I am getting to the point where I am going to buy something to play with until I get the "right" one. I cannot do a custom Perry Design boat, but I hope to be able to get a really nice old used boat pretty soon.

Anyways, keep up the fun and post more photos...

Mark


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## bobperry

Mark, Mark, mark!

How jio pu tsien, (long time no see)

Good to see You back.


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## Brent Swain

This is my boat.


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## Brent Swain

djodenda said:


> I really like the dark/bold colors. They seem to "fit" with the boat style.


When my boat is white, it is like adding air conditioning , in the tropics. In colder climes the lockers get musty inside. Paint her dark and they dry out completely,and all mustiness disappears .I have been frozen in, in minus 12 celcius, and the hull feels warm to the touch when the sun hits it for a few minutes.
South of Baja I paint her white, north of Baja she is dark green..
Don't underestimate this factor.
Even changing the deck colour from light beige to white made a huge difference in the tropics.
Walk around a hot, sunbathed parking lot. Feel the white cars, then feel the dark coloured cars.


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## Brent Swain

bobperry said:


> "No ,you wont post Frankie's stability curve here, because it would back up my claim that a narrow beam and trunk cabin, eliminates AVS concerns." BS
> 
> No, I won't post it here primarily to annoy you. By now you must have realized I'm not here to pander to your problems.
> 
> I don't think anyone familiar with stability studies disputes that narrow beam boats, providing they have a low VCG, have good stability numbers. That's common knowledge. I don't recall anyone disputing that. It most certainly is not a BS "revelation". Maybe you just figured it out. Catch up.
> 
> You can't provide a set of lines but you can provide a stability curve? I would be highly skeptical of a stability curve coming from a hack who proposed a reasonable AVS of "182 degrees". Your words Brent, not mine. I still laugh when I type it. Clearly Brent you have a tenuous at best grasp of stability numbers. But as you keep reminding us, you have a math problem. No ****ski.


182 degrees is 178 measured form the other side. I don't think Frankie,or most narrow beamed boats would have any problem there
This is from Bob the guy who claims he never makes typos, the same guy who claims to be a karate athelete, after posting a picture of himself sporting a huge pot belly.

Hull lines come with the plans. Others, including a critic, had no problems calculating a stability curve for my 36, one critic said 165 degrees AVS.Another guy calculated 175 degrees AVS.Compare that to beamier boats which are considered adequate. Bob said 125 degrees AVS looks fine to him.
When I pointed out that it is common knowledge that narrow boats have no problems with AVS, I was called a liar.

A guy asks a question about steel boats and what does Bob post? Pictures of little boys! If he wanted that he would have searched for a "little boys "site.
I'm sure guys who are into " little boys" appreciate Bobs offering.


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## Brent Swain

There is an interesting story on CF about a Beneteau having her rudder suddenly sheer off in moderate conditions. That is why I prefer an overbuilt skeg. You can build a steel skeg far stronger than a shaft,with other benefits, and no serious penalty, except the building time.

Bob and Smack say fibreglass is stronger than steel. Try driving a fibreglass nail into a piece of steel Then try a fibreglass chisel, then fibreglass screwdriver, or wrench. Beat on a piece of steel with a fibreglas pickaxe, then try a steel pickaxe on a piece of fibreglass. Bob and Smack say the fibreglass ones would fare better. Base your assessment of their credibility on the results.

Smack started saying that 36 inches was the minimum height for lifelines. Bob didn't disagree. Then, when I pointed out that Bobs boats had only 24 inch high lifelines, as did Smack's Hunter, he began saying that 35 inches was too high, and that you are more likely to fall under them , than over them.

That is the kind of logic you would expect from someone who claims that my steel boats are not strong enough , yet buys pieces of crap like a Hunter or Catalina. 

A documentary on the Dole Corporation said they have rooms full of people, who cruise the internet, hired to attack and trash anyone who posts anything which they consider contrary to their financial interests. By offering people alternatives to super expensive ways of doing things, I am subject to the same type of attacks, from those with a huge financial stake in maintaining the belief that the expensive ways are cruisers only options.
I have yet to meet any one who has one of my boats, properly built to my plans , who would rather be cruising in anything else.


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## MedSailor

Brent, 

I have a burning question. Why hit a log boom at hull speed when you tie up to it? Also, why tie up to it at all? They are usually owned by someone and I'd hate to have to move early in the AM because the tug has arrived....

BTW, thanks for posting the picture of your boat.

MedSailor


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## SloopJonB

It's never a good idea around here - they come for them in the middle of the night sometimes - you might wake up miles away from where you thought you were.


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## ferg

Older GRP vessels are good and thick and therefor strong and do not rust.


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## bobperry

"182 degrees" is your quote Brent. Own it. It's yours.
With nothing to add to the discussion of yacht design I can why you would want to resort to more childish personal attacks. I'm waiting for another attack on my wife. 

Love to argue with you but I am getting ready for my trip tomorrow to St. Francis YC in San Francisco.

Just keep talking Brent. You attack you far better than I can.

.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> 182 degrees is 178 measured form the other side.


This, ladies and gentlemen, is "BS Math". You can bet your life on it.


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## bobperry

Hang on,,,I think I get this.

So, you could say 30 degrees of heel is the same as 330 degrees of heel " measured from the other side". Damn, now why didn't I think of that before?

Probably because it makes no sense and no one in this business measures heel angles that way.

Well, there is that.


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## MedSailor

It makes sense to me. Brent is from Australia. 










MedSailor


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## bobperry

No Med. BS would never, ever be mistaken for an Australian.
He is not fair dinkum.

In the vernacular, He's a wanker.


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## outbound

Brent LPS is not determined by beam alone.A narrow boat with inadequate RM will be initially tender but also prone to capsize. In fact more so than a beamy boat as it would lack form stability. Your boats with their massive weight above the waterline will require massive amounts of ballast to have an acceptable GZ curve. I'm not a N.A. but these simple formulas and the physics behind them are known to any reasonably knowledgeable sailor. Please post a GZ curve or LPS generated by a knowledgable believable source. Looking at the hulls unless you are putting depleted uranium in your keels and around40- 50% of displacement as ballast your stability statements seem to be more bogus nonsense. 
Look at Frankie. Yes she is narrow but she also has a deep fin with a bulb at the end. Your boats have low chord keels with the ballast not localized to the extreme bottom in a bulb. Therefore much less RM. Heavy and therefore slow. Tender so always living on a slant. Unknown LPS empty or at 1/2load or fully found for cruising.
Steel remains an excellent material for cruising boats it's unfortunate you have been the only builder engaged in this thread given the multiple deficiencies of your boats as outlined in prior posts.


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## Dirtyfloats

Cant Help but be curious.

Does anyone else here Have a steel boat?
Is anyone else here activley engaged in maintaing/sailing/building a steel boat?

OR is that part of the thread irrelevant?

For me, there is no other option for material.
For one I like working with steel.
secondly, I would (and have) destroy a plastic boat amazingly fast.

The past few days I have spent Welding on the outside of my Stainless steel bulwark cap. Gonna spend today grinding it, cleaning in up and putting on the zinc primer.
I also decided that i Wanted better ventilation for welding inside the hull, So I cut the forehatch out of the boat in about 40 seconds of work. Voila! Man i love my plasma cutter. Oh yeah, and its been raining. Not much, but enough that i wouldnt be able to work on my boat if it were made of glass. Thats another thing that appeals to me.

And yes, I could probably have bought a used boat for "cheaper" But it only would have been cheaper for a few years, before it started eating more money.
Steel cost me about 9500. delivered to my house on a small island. wheeled and primed. Scrap stainless has cost me another few thousand i would guess.
the rest is time, and I have lots of that, and find great satisfaction in building my boat.


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## outbound

Dirty- bless you for posting. I'm curious. What designs did you research before picking your boat? Do you have the basic statistics for your boat? Have you gotten insurance for your boat? Was there any difficulties? How many hours do you think it will take to completion? What's your day job? I did schooling at the local trade high school and was amazed how easy the plasma cutter cut even 1/4" plate. Have fun. 
Btw glass done right is tougher than many think. Locally a Cherubini went into the shore which was covered by huge granite blocks during Sandy. She pounded for the whole storm and was taken off days later. Went down to Delran N.J. And now good as new.


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## christian.hess

good pícs! 

someday Ill build mine! jajaja


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## smackdaddy

Dirty - thank you very much for posting pics and explanations of what you're doing and going through (costs, tools, etc.). This is what most of us have been hoping for. A real, current, first-hand account.

The biggest questions I have pertaining to this thread are these:

1. If you didn't have the steel-working experience and background you have, would building a steel boat still be feasible for you? In other words, could anyone do it?

2. If a person were starting from scratch (just buying the plans and going for it), how much do you think they would have to invest in tools and equipment to do this right? For example, how much is a plasma cutter, a welder, and any other tools that are critical to doing this right?


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## SloopJonB

LOVE the sign at the Praxair shop! :laugher


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## bobperry

Getting solar panels on the roof of my shack today. Lots of them. I'll be sending watts back to the PUD in no time and getting paid for them.

Trip to San Francisco was a huge success yesterday. Saw lots of good old friends. Got invited the the Tinsley Island Stag Cruise this summer. Whooppee, that's an even you don't want to miss.

I'd love to post three funky looking boats sitting in the mud but this fleet of CT65's racing is the best I can do for now.


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## bobperry

This will make you laugh. The calendar say 1977. The hair says 1977. I have tons of old photos that I am going to start scanning. I have so many boat photos that need to be saved on the computer so I can show them off.


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## shank32095

Quite conservative actually. I had blonde hair down to my ass in '77 attending UCSB coming to the conclusion that college was for people that don't surf. Good thing because it turned out I was a terrible student, a good surfer and a really good salesman. Funny, I got busted for underage drinking in Santa Barbara around that time and the judge threw the book at me. Sentenced me to no surfing for a month. How cruel and unusual is that. I would argue that we grew up in the best of times. What do think?


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## bobperry

But back to the cons of steel boats:
Here is something you cannot do in steel.


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## bobperry

Shank:
When I was in college there was no AIDS. I am thankful for that. I would not like to have mixed my college years with the threat of AIDS. I think it was a damn good time. The music was a wee bit wonky with the whole disco thing but hell, I'm a Bee Gee's fan still.

I was 31 years old when that pic wass taken and I thought I was the king of the world. I had a lot of fun designing boats, living the dream.


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## SloopJonB

shank32095 said:


> Quite conservative actually. I had blonde hair down to my ass in '77 attending UCSB coming to the conclusion that college was for people that don't surf. Good thing because it turned out I was a terrible student, a good surfer and a really good salesman. Funny, I got busted for underage drinking in Santa Barbara around that time and the judge threw the book at me. Sentenced me to no surfing for a month. How cruel and unusual is that. I would argue that we grew up in the best of times. What do think?


If you mean the 70's, I couldn't disagree more. Except for being a golden age of sailboats that was a real "lost decade".

Think about it - Viet Nam, Nixon, Watergate, Disco, Iran & the Ayatollah, oil embargoes, leisure suits and the cars! the cars! 150 H.P. Corvettes

It was a horrible time.


----------



## SloopJonB

bobperry said:


> But back to the cons of steel boats:
> Here is something you cannot do in steel.


Why can't you sail a steeler in a jacket & tie?


----------



## bobperry

Not sure you can build an 8' steeler that sails like that. I was dressed for work. I drove down to the lake and I was so excited I didn't change my clothes I just hopped in the Pwinkle and went sailing.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
I hear you. I was so absorbed in my work that most of the 70's just passed me by. Maybe I was lucky. We designed a lot of boats in those days and they built a lot of boats in those days. I sailed all the time and that was my world. I do remember being in Boston during the gas shortage. I remember gas going to $1 a gallon in 1979 and buying my Mercedes 5 cyl diesel for $29,500 which at the time I thought was an insane price.


----------



## bobperry

My friend Steve inherited this aluminum boat and has been doing a major rebuild on it for a couple of years. He is an amazing welder and he has a fabulous eye for detail. My only contribution to his project was a dining table design and Steve modified that. Metal, hard chine boats do not have to be ugly as this little motor sailer shows.


----------



## bobperry

Here is another shot showing some of the details. Steve is the type who builds almost everything himself and his work is amazing. I really envy his build and design skills.


----------



## Dirtyfloats

I will try to awnser all the questions...

Firstly, yes i did all kinds of research before deciding to build my boat.
Acctually i spent a few years looking at any steel boat I could, and reading all the relevant books out there. ( nigel warren, ian nicholson, giblert klingel, thomas colvin, blah, blah, blah) I have seen some great steel boats, and some aweful ones.

My last boat was a roberts offshore 38. While at first I liked it, I quickly learned to hate that boat. So much framing. 1/8th inch hull plate. centre cockpit. no space on deck, no space below ( stupid aft cabin crawlways) as brent said, a series of closets.
there were all kinds of things that I percieved as MAJOR design flaws in that boat. 
For example, an anchor locker that was foamed and doesnt drain!
deck hardware bolted to an other wise water tight deck! 
rediculous fin keel and unprotected rudder.
I could go on, but it doesnt matter. At a certain point i realized that I needed to build a boat from scratch in order to get what I wanted. I then began to write down for myself what I wanted...
Basically, thicker hull plate, bilge keels, stainless trim everywhere, aft cockpit, good sized wheelhouse, tiller steering, outboard rudder, etc...
Basically it came down to a "brent Boat"
I had met brent a few years earlier when cruising around vancouver island for a summer, and had kept in touch with him.
So, I saved my pennies, found a place to build, moved in, ordered steel and started.
Brent was/is incredibly helpful putting the hull together. He sailed up, and came by all the time to awnser questions, provide ideas, and help with drawing things out. Plus he is a great guy to work around because he is always having a laugh!

As far as how many hours it will take me? I have no idea beacuse I am not done yet!
I can tell you that, I started at the end of november last year, put the hull together in about weeks work. Working with the shortest days of the year, and having lots of delays because of snow, rain, having to go to town, etc. 
I can tell you, however, that my "plan" is to launch the boat by september of this year.
and spend the next few months building an interior, and finishing things out getting ready for the next summer of sailing.

Do I have insurance? No. I am my own insurance policy and firmly believe that people would be much more resposible if they lived without it alltogether.

Do I believe that Anyone could build a steel boat like this?
There is no short awsner....
So, If we lay aside all the obvious crap, I.E. you are not a total moron. ( there are alot of those lurking around, especially in bigger cities)
Than yes, I believe that anyone with the determination, and a basic set of skills could do this. lots of people have. Its all about knowing what you want, and knowing what you can do. of course it is intimidating at times, but what isnt?

As far as Tools go, You dont need much.

I bought my plasma cutter for 600CD before i started this project cause it was a good deal, and I love the thing. it'll cut half inch plate without any struggle. I also have a set of torches that I got off a farmer for free. I use them rarely.
I bought my welder a while back for just under 2000CD. But the 150 dollar buzz box that I have will do just as nice a job putting the boat together. I just bought the welder because I wanted a very versitile machine (mig,Tig, stick) 
I bought 2 ton comealongs on sale at princess auto. 100 bucks each. Best investment ever, i use em for everything. not just the boat. 
Thats about it for special tools. The rest is pretty much a sledge, lots of clamps, Vice grips, Like ten measuring tapes cause I break one every four days...
But then If you dont already own a set of tools, Then maybe your not the type of person that wants to build/fix/break things.

I cant remember if thats all the questions or not....

Really, ALOT OF CLAMPS,


----------



## Dirtyfloats

bobperry said:


> But back to the cons of steel boats:
> Here is something you cannot do in steel.


But you COULD build it out of aluminum, and it would be better...


----------



## bobperry

Dirty:
Maybe alu would work but they built 100 of these in grp from a mold. It's a great little dink but doesn't like to be towed to quickly. I had to design "trim tabs" that fit into the rudder gudgeons to keep the stern from squatting and swamping. We built a custom 10' version at Schooner Creek a few years back. The client just had to have one and did not care what it cost.

Please check out my latest blog entry. Thanks.


----------



## SloopJonB

Those are gorgeous dinks but I sure wouldn't want to try to hump one up on deck.


----------



## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> Those are gorgeous dinks but I sure wouldn't want to try to hump one up on deck.


Ewww.


----------



## outbound

Thanks Dirty and good luck with your project. Wonder if you have any sailing polars, LPS, CM or other statistics on your boat?
A good Millermatic is a thing of joy although a cheap buzz box is easier to lug around. What are you using? Stick ?MIG. With your skill set and a shop why did you go with Fe instead of building a tent and using TIG inside to build in Al ?


----------



## bobperry

I'd like to see what a plasma cutter looks like.


----------



## outbound

Think it would be wicked cool to have a nesting AL dink one person could put on fore deck. Or even better incorporate Fold a Boat design so it would lay flat. Get paranoid fishing off a inflatable or dragging over rocky shoreline even with rigid bottom.


----------



## bobperry

234 hits on my blog today
They kind of like me. Like my dogs.
I got a big box of dog treats today from an admirer in the dog treat business. It's funny how this yacht designer thing works. His dog treats are all made in the USA.

Buy Bark Less Wag More dog treats. That's his brand.


----------



## bobperry

My buddy Steve had his boat out yesterday in some snotty weather. He had to rescue a friend with a dead engine. Cool! He got to use his towing bit aft for that job. The hull is from Colvin plans but the rest is all Steve's design work. When he's not working on his boat he flies around in the plane he built himself.


----------



## smackdaddy

That really is a nice looking boat. Brent - take notes.


----------



## bobperry

Smack:
I think Steve's boat is proof that a robust pickup truck of a boat can be a handsome boat too.


----------



## blt2ski

Have pics to prove, now to figure out where to store and post........

Poor frankie was hit by a ferry at blake island tonight.....even survived.....not sure a BS boat can do that!!!!!!!!! oh well, now that I have internet after moving a month ago, I guess I can cause problems again........

Oh yeah, I know, post is useless with out pics. LOLOL have them on phone!

Marty


----------



## bobperry

Marty: spoke to Kim after the race. He didn't say anything about a collision. But I know Kim and if it had happened he would have.


----------



## bobperry

ICON, my 65'er crushes the Oregon Offshore Race record by 4 hours and 50 minutes averaging 12.9 knots over the 194 mile course and hitting 17 knots tops.

Not bad for a "marina queen".


----------



## outbound

What no logs or rocks to hit?

What's up with that?


----------



## bobperry

Out:
No, but if you come inshore too far you have a lot of crab pots top deal with. It is resally a tough race. The coast of Washington is not So cal. They call it the "Graveyard of the Pacific" and for good reason.

I ma happy my mighty ICON won. Makes me feel alright.

I think Brent must have been flicked. What's up with that?


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> I think Brent must have been flicked. What's up with that?


At least he's not being dishonest anymore...not around here anyway.


----------



## christian.hess

nice bob!

congrats


----------



## bobperry

In fact three boats broke the 2000 OOR records set by RAGE. Must have been quite a ride.
But there can only be one first to finish.


----------



## DJR351

Sadly another sailboat sunk, although this happened last December and thankfully both crew where rescued, you maybe interested in this one Bob.....She was made out of steel.....

| what's left of a life

peterpowell.ca - Home

.


----------



## smackdaddy

Okay - Brent Swain is pathetic. The guy is despicable. Why? Look at his words from his origami site:



> Tried to give steel boat information on sailnet, but some wierd old guy named Perry started using the steel boat discussion to post pictures of his personal obsesion, little boys , (which I am sure other old wierdos, who are into little boys appreciate) He was getting disgusting . So I gave up on that site. At least here we stick to steel boat related questions. People with steel boat questions can always can find me here


This little man is a complete coward and a liar. The above post of his proves that completely. Just look through this thread and see if you can find ANYTHING to back up Brent's clear defamation of Bob. How anyone could believe a single word that comes from his mouth is beyond me. Zero honor. Zero integrity.

If this very popular thread does nothing else for the world, let it show that Brent Swain is undoubtedly _the_ biggest con of steel sailboats out there. Hands-down.

You want a steel sailboat? Fine. Are you willing to bet _your life_ on a _lowlife_ like this? If you are, you're an idiot.


----------



## MedSailor

DJR351 said:


> Sadly another sailboat sunk, although this happened last December and thankfully both crew where rescued, you maybe interested in this one Bob.....She was made out of steel.....
> 
> | what's left of a life
> 
> peterpowell.ca - Home
> 
> .


Unfortunately steel itself (just like kevlar and anything else) is no panacea against sinking. I interviewed a doctor I worked with who's steel boat sunk 3 days Easy of Hawaii after a collision with some unknown object. He even had an engine driven bilge pump, but to no avail, and the boat went down.

Steel can break up and sink too.

MedSailor


----------



## kimbottles

blt2ski said:


> Have pics to prove, now to figure out where to store and post........
> 
> Poor frankie was hit by a ferry at blake island tonight.....even survived.....not sure a BS boat can do that!!!!!!!!! oh well, now that I have internet after moving a month ago, I guess I can cause problems again........
> 
> Oh yeah, I know, post is useless with out pics. LOLOL have them on phone!
> 
> Marty


For the record, the "Francis Lee" has not been in any collisions. I have no idea what this post is about.


----------



## MedSailor

blt2ski said:


> Have pics to prove, now to figure out where to store and post........
> 
> Poor frankie was hit by a ferry at blake island tonight.....even survived.....not sure a BS boat can do that!!!!!!!!! oh well, now that I have internet after moving a month ago, *I guess I can cause problems again*........
> 
> Oh yeah, I know, post is useless with out pics. LOLOL have them on phone!
> 
> Marty


I'm thinking this is the heart of the message right here. 

MedSailor


----------



## goat

blt2troll?


----------



## smackdaddy

Naa - bluto's not a troll. He's been around here a long time. Good dude. Just got mixed up I suppose. Of course, how in the hell can you mistake ANY boat out there for the FL?


----------



## goat

smackdaddy said:


> Naa - bluto's not a troll. He's been around here a long time. Good dude. Just got mixed up I suppose. Of course, how in the hell can you mistake ANY boat out there for the FL?


Have to wait for the pictures. Blutowski, Built To Ski. Rookie mistake on my part.


----------



## bobperry

Bluto?
He has a weird sense of humor, works long, hard hours and I think he may take a nip before posting (gasp!). But I know him and he's the real deal, a sailor's sailor.


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Bluto?
> He has a weird sense of humor, works long, hard hours and I think he may take a nip before posting (gasp!). But I know him and he's the real deal, a sailor's sailor.


I like to take a nip before posting too. And being right at 13K posts, I've now been through 1,278 gallons of scotch.

To another post!


----------



## bobperry

Frankie trucking along to another effortless win.

We were just finishing the hoist when this photo was taken. Yes, we did get the chute to the masthead.


----------



## djodenda

Congratulations, Bob and Kim..

Sorry about Marty. Sometimes he gets a bit silly. Yes, he does work very hard, but he does look out for my boat, so it's all good.

I will take another opportunity to brag about my family:




These pictures were taken during the Race to the Straits last weekend. We finished in the middle of the pack on Saturday, and bailed on the race Sunday, which had quite a bit of carnage involved.

It's a double-handed race, and my wife's second race... About 10 minutes after those pictures were taken, I was asking my wife to release the spinnaker sheet, which was underwater at the time.

A brave and forgiving woman!

P.S.... Is the second photo a good example of hull speed?


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
Great shot of hull speed. Says it all.

Marty is just fine with me. Some of his humor does take some interpriting. But I think some of mine does too.


----------



## Classic30

bobperry said:


> Marty is just fine with me. Some of his humor does take some interpriting. But I think some of mine does too.


He hasn't been around for a day or so, but methinks Marty is poking fun at Brent's implied suggestions that steel is tougher than fibreglass because it can survive running into things... without pics to prove it.

Bob, perhaps you need to be at least part-Aussie to get the joke..


----------



## bobperry

Classic:
I think you are right.


----------



## SloopJonB

I just did a Google on origami boats and discovered that even other origami builders/promoters are trashing Brent, his claims and his lack of any sort of credentials.

I does seem like his customers like him and his processes though.


----------



## bobperry

Jon: Come on, man up. Post some of those items over on origamiboats yahoo.
Don't tell me. Tell BS.
Sheesh.
We need to hang together here.


----------



## blt2ski

Yes I was having a bit of phun with the ferry crashing into FL. Pictures if I can get them posted would show it was a fun phonomonem < dang speel checker will not help me with the word I want....

Was EAST bound on BB ferry to seattle, west bound cam between FL and myself. Fl was there in the pics, then gone, and back up and alive! Yes, would be a fun set of pics...... Heck, the dang ferry took out blakely rock too! and two or three other boats, all were floating back up again a few moments later..........

Kim, are you out racing again tomorrow night? Was on a LATE ferry last week, think the 5:30 or there abouts, usually on the 4:30 or 3:50 if real lucky!

Oh, I do not drink too much or often........unless it is a Dr P! no alchohol, altho a vino, good amber beer is good. Opening day weekend they were giving my vodka shots......do not do well with 4 of them things!

Marty

now if I can get this link to work, my fun the weekend Dave and spouse were doing race to straights....


----------



## desert rat

DR pepper is the ghreatest mixer even with cheap vodka. No comercial involvement whatever.


----------



## STC

Hello everyone! I typically wouldn't use some random thread to introduce myself to a forum but I've been lurking on this site for a couple years and reading this particular thread from the beginning for the last couple of days. 

Anyway, my plans are to finish up some financial obligations, graduate my last kid from high school in June of 2017, and set sail. Been pretty hungry for it for the last 2-3 years so I'm not 100% certain I'll last 3 more years but that's the goal/plan. In all likelihood, I'll buy a boat in the next 12 months and start doing mini cruises and 3 day weekend trips. Anyway... 

I don't know exactly what's transpired on this thread lately as I finally stopped reading about 100 pages ago and just jumped to the end. It's nice to see from the last couple of pages however that this thread is at least consistent with the input, contributing members, and general tone. That's really why I chose to finally register. 

I was going to give some observation on tone, ganging up and squaring off, and the impression of general bullying but on second thought, I won't. I'll just say that the vast majority of cruisers I've met (both online and in person) seem like amazing and welcoming people. With that said, I found a lot of the posts in this thread kind of surprising. Not because I'm thin skinned (I'd like to think that with almost a decade of combat experience, I'm anything but soft/delicate) but just because a lot of it seemed kind of cheap, petty, and very personal. -In my honest opinion-

Well, with all that said... hi everyone! I look forward to many more years of lurking and learning on this site as I know I'll probably have very little practical input seeing as how I have very little hands on experience with small cruising sailboats (practically zero compared to present company!)


----------



## mark2gmtrans

I used to be in this thread a LOT because it was the most fun to watch. Bob Perry, SmackDaddy, Marty, and even BS were always here and the discussions were "lively" at times. Looks like no one is home here right now. Bob is probably out building and sailing another gorgeous boat he designed, Smack is likely out sailing with his boys and enjoying the summer. Marty is being Marty somewhere, BS, well he is preaching to his follower (s) somewhere up in Canadian waters. Me, well I am all over the place, working my butt off to be able to be out sailing soon once I find the boat I want, and can afford. I hope everyone is well, and bid you all fair winds and smooth sailing wherever you might be.


----------



## smackdaddy

STC said:


> Hello everyone! I typically wouldn't use some random thread to introduce myself to a forum but I've been lurking on this site for a couple years and reading this particular thread from the beginning for the last couple of days.
> 
> Anyway, my plans are to finish up some financial obligations, graduate my last kid from high school in June of 2017, and set sail. Been pretty hungry for it for the last 2-3 years so I'm not 100% certain I'll last 3 more years but that's the goal/plan. In all likelihood, I'll buy a boat in the next 12 months and start doing mini cruises and 3 day weekend trips. Anyway...
> 
> I don't know exactly what's transpired on this thread lately as I finally stopped reading about 100 pages ago and just jumped to the end. It's nice to see from the last couple of pages however that this thread is at least consistent with the input, contributing members, and general tone. That's really why I chose to finally register.
> 
> I was going to give some observation on tone, ganging up and squaring off, and the impression of general bullying but on second thought, I won't. I'll just say that the vast majority of cruisers I've met (both online and in person) seem like amazing and welcoming people. With that said, I found a lot of the posts in this thread kind of surprising. Not because I'm thin skinned (I'd like to think that with almost a decade of combat experience, I'm anything but soft/delicate) but just because a lot of it seemed kind of cheap, petty, and very personal. -In my honest opinion-
> 
> Well, with all that said... hi everyone! I look forward to many more years of lurking and learning on this site as I know I'll probably have very little practical input seeing as how I have very little hands on experience with small cruising sailboats (practically zero compared to present company!)


Welcome to SN STC. You'll like the place.

And remember, there's one reason and one reason only this thread went the way it did. And cheap and petty pretty much nails the guy.

And hey Mark! Good to see you back 'round.


----------



## MedSailor

STC, welcome to SailNet! Don't worry too much about this thread, its the exception, not the rule to how things usually transpire here.

Here are a few of the most epic threads ever on SailNet:
Big Freakin' Sails
Low buck Projects
What's your biggest bonehead move?

Welcome to SailNet!
MedSailor


----------



## shank32095

Welcome STC, I had your sentiments exactly when I first got on this thread. Was considering purchasing a steel vessel which I did. There was a bunch of back and forth but I soon realized there was only so much BS one man could absorb before "going off". Smack is totally correct, BS is cheap, petty and anyone who disavowed his doctrine was attacked as a rich elitist or just stupid.
Take BS out of the thread even though he actually had a few moments of sanity ( when he wasn't publishing fiction) and it would have been fairly calm. SN is a pretty cool read, just don't get drawn into the gutter with BS because he can be irritating like zancudo.:hammer


----------



## christian.hess

zancudos you say? tis the season down here! jajaja


----------



## bobperry

Mark:
Welcome back.

I've been a bit busy. We race FRANCIS LEE for the fourth time this weekend. We have been doing very well with a couple of first overall's and a DNF due to no wind. Fact is we got bored and bailed. We race again this weekend. FRANCIS came up to the shack last weekend. It was nice to see the boat on my mooring.


----------



## swanbedankt

BY FAR THE *BRENT SWAIN STEEL SAILBOAT * HAS PROVEN ITSELF> FOR COASTAL CRUSING AND OFFSHORE time and time again!!> MANY SATISFIED CRUISERS ARE CRUISING AND LIVING ABOARD A BRENT SWAIN STEEL SAILBOAT> AND HAVING A GREAT LIFESTYLE AND SUPPORT AND SAFE CRUISING> I know many myself who have built the Brent Swain and have put so many countries under the keel of thier Brent Swain Steel Boat. Having access to Brent for ideas and questions and concerns is also a plus. Many Architects walk out the door as soon as the huge price of the plans are paid for. Leaving you to wonder what to do now. Brent is generously available and easily and has many folks who back him that are so willing to share ideas, questions, and concerns. Sometimes you can buy one and make it yours and have a giant array of information because you own a Brent Swain Boat. And its a solid platform made of the genuine article. THERE ARE SOME DISBELIEVERS ON THIS SITE I have noticed< BUT THEY SAIL HUNTERS>>OR HAVE HUGE EGOS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TRUE ARTICLE OF A BRENT SWAIN BOAT> THATS A FAR CRY FROM actual EXPERIENCE> To my astonishment the disbeleivers are quite immature. Check out the Brent Swain Steel Boat from those who live, sail, build and cruise on them. They have gone everywhere around the planet with giant comfort and success. And for fractions of the dollar. They are a very Exciting and Unique Steel construction wich does not stop at just the hull.. it goes into an entire respected lifestyle . ENJOY! HAPPY SEARCHING! and most of all happy and safe crusing time.


----------



## SloopJonB

Sock Puppet or a Thorn by another name?


----------



## shank32095

Nice try Brent but your lack of proper grammar DNA is undeniable.


----------



## djodenda

Weird.


----------



## MedSailor

swanbedankt said:


> BY FAR THE *BRENT SWAIN STEEL SAILBOAT * HAS PROVEN ITSELF> FOR COASTAL CRUSING AND OFFSHORE time and time again!!> MANY SATISFIED CRUISERS ARE CRUISING AND LIVING ABOARD A BRENT SWAIN STEEL SAIL..... blah blah blah












MedSailor


----------



## christian.hess

ill give it a like in case its somebody else who trully loves his boat! ajajajaajjaajaja


----------



## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Mark:
> Welcome back.
> 
> I've been a bit busy. We race FRANCIS LEE for the fourth time this weekend. We have been doing very well with a couple of first overall's and a DNF due to no wind. Fact is we got bored and bailed. We race again this weekend. FRANCIS came up to the shack last weekend. It was nice to see the boat on my mooring.


Wow. Just wow.


----------



## smackdaddy

swanbedankt said:


> BY FAR THE *BRENT SWAIN STEEL SAILBOAT * HAS PROVEN ITSELF> FOR COASTAL CRUSING AND OFFSHORE time and time again!!> MANY SATISFIED CRUISERS ARE CRUISING AND LIVING ABOARD A BRENT SWAIN STEEL SAILBOAT> AND HAVING A GREAT LIFESTYLE AND SUPPORT AND SAFE CRUISING> I know many myself who have built the Brent Swain and have put so many countries under the keel of thier Brent Swain Steel Boat. Having access to Brent for ideas and questions and concerns is also a plus. Many Architects walk out the door as soon as the huge price of the plans are paid for. Leaving you to wonder what to do now. Brent is generously available and easily and has many folks who back him that are so willing to share ideas, questions, and concerns. Sometimes you can buy one and make it yours and have a giant array of information because you own a Brent Swain Boat. And its a solid platform made of the genuine article. THERE ARE SOME DISBELIEVERS ON THIS SITE I have noticed< BUT THEY SAIL HUNTERS>>OR HAVE HUGE EGOS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TRUE ARTICLE OF A BRENT SWAIN BOAT> THATS A FAR CRY FROM actual EXPERIENCE> To my astonishment the disbeleivers are quite immature. Check out the Brent Swain Steel Boat from those who live, sail, build and cruise on them. They have gone everywhere around the planet with giant comfort and success. And for fractions of the dollar. They are a very Exciting and Unique Steel construction wich does not stop at just the hull.. it goes into an entire respected lifestyle . ENJOY! HAPPY SEARCHING! and most of all happy and safe crusing time.


Yeah but, from what I've seen, he lies all the time. It's kinda hard to trust someone that does that. He also hides in his own yahoo-cult, lobs wildly defamatory comments at good people _on other forums_ (i.e. - behind their back), then deletes posts on said yahoo-cult that take him to task about it. It's kinda hard to respect a raging coward.

I don't know who on this earth would actually consider the above behavior a "respected lifestyle" - but they can't be quite sane - or anywhere near moral - if they do.

So, added all up, BS is kind of an epic failure in my opinion.


----------



## blt2ski

Bob,

Where is Karma in the pic. Saw something on FB with Karma there too! I know one of the owners of that boat.

Marty


----------



## blt2ski

This new guy has given out 4 likes, ALL to BS! name is similar. Oh, has BS been given the stick o deodorant!?!?!?!???

any way, where was I? oh yeah someone said "marty is being a marty!" be careful when that occurs, that can be scarry. Only thing worst, is if you have two or more Marty's around.........

still need to figure out how to post the pics of poor frankie getting run over by a ferry!......lolol


Marty


----------



## bobperry

Marty:
KARMA is the photo boat. My buddy Boomer was on KARMA and took that shot. He also took a video of FRANCIS arriving at the shack. In the video FRANCIS looks like it's doing 15 knots. But it isn't. I'll try to figure out how to post the vid here. It's good for a laugh.

I can do without liars here. I can do without guys who manufacture events and invent facts. BS is always just BS and I'm not at all into BS.


----------



## bobperry

See if this works:


----------



## outbound

Nice to see you back Marty. Have enjoyed your posts. Shame is there are some very fine steel boats out there and it remains a viable material for boat building for the target audience of a certain breed of cruisers. Unfortunately the cons of BS boats would seem to far outweigh the pros. If you are truly interested in steel please refer to the metal boat society or another source rather than blindly join the cult of Brent.
Bob sweet boat but that has been said before and will be said again. Been on the boat and moving around a bit. Wife has been learning her skill set and fortunately is doing quite well.
Offended by prior post as I don't own a Hunter and feel quite confident in my boat in any setting-coastal, near shore or blue water. Taking a shot at Smack was uncalled for Brent. He loves and enjoys his boat. What's wrong with that.


----------



## blt2ski

Video looks good Bob. 

Outbound, I would agree, steel boats have a place, as do wood, glass, or any other material a boat can be made of for that matter. Again depends upon the what you are doing with said boat. IE river rafting, dinghy, daysailor, weekender, occasional week or two, sailing the high seas, ie north or south of the 40-50th parallel, rum running, trade wind routes........america's cup boat, ALL are good, even smackies Hunter! at least it is still afloat, unlike the poor smacktanic I.....RIP!

Was looking for Frankie on the 530 ferry tonight, did not see her out and about tonight! waaaaaaaaaaaaaa. was hoping to see her survive another ferry run over. LOLOLOL

marty


----------



## bobperry

Marty:
FRANCIS will be out tonight doing the Elliot Bay beer can race.


----------



## djodenda

I see Frankie is doing the Three Buoy Fiasco. Would have been fun to race against you, but CYC Edmonds has our Mad Dash to Port Ludlow and back this weekend. Will be my third doublehand race with my wife.

Weather reports are showing interesting winds.


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
Yep, the Fiasco should be a lot of fun. I've neverr done a race like that before, i.e. rounding the buoys in any direction and any order. We will be near the last boat to start. I'm looking forward to it. Races all over this weekend.

Best of luck in your double handed race.


----------



## djodenda

Thanks, Bob.. you too.

Water gets pretty thin just north of Jeff head.. be careful around there..


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
We have two on board that live on the West side of the Sound. We'll be alert.

Besides, we only draw 10'. The new project I'm involved with draws 18'!


----------



## MedSailor

bobperry said:


> Denda:
> We have two on board that live on the West side of the Sound. We'll be alert.
> 
> Besides, we only draw 10'. The new project I'm involved with draws 18'!


With that much keel to support I sure hope she's a steel boat! :laugher

......

You know, it's a pity that the two dominant voices on this thread BOTH represent the cons of steel boats. One does it voluntarily the other involuntarily. As a recovering wooden boat owner I have a hard time seeing wood as a viable material for anything bigger than a tender, but steel I think has it's merits if well designed and constructed.

For those that missed it, I said *well designed*. If you doubt the necessity of a professional designing your boat, see also the boat in Anacortes that flipped over upon launch a couple weeks ago.

MedSailor


----------



## bobperry

Med:
We are steel where it counts. Stainless steel.


As for steel boats. I have zero against well designed steel boats. One of my very favorite boats is a steel boat. I just want to see good design talent at work.


----------



## blt2ski

David,

How many are doing the mad dash? 

EYC is doing a crazy dash back from ludlow doing the labor day cruise. Would you be interested in coming? I can sen you info. Hope to be getting that done in a bit.

Marty


----------



## outbound

Med you may want to take a peak at some cold molded or strip planked boats. With current techniques no more maintenance then glass and as Jeff pointed out when done right stronger then steel as regards weight strength ratio. Active construction of some fine very modern wood boats in Europe, lundenberg canada and elsewhere. U.S. market maybe too biased toward grp discounting merits of other materials.


----------



## christian.hess

you should post that on the fiberglassing a wood boat thread...

there are very very modern wood boats being made...

cheers

sturdy steel frame for the keel bob!

NICE!


----------



## MedSailor

outbound said:


> Med you may want to take a peak at some cold molded or strip planked boats. With current techniques no more maintenance then glass and as Jeff pointed out when done right stronger then steel as regards weight strength ratio. Active construction of some fine very modern wood boats in Europe, lundenberg canada and elsewhere. U.S. market maybe too biased toward grp discounting merits of other materials.


Yes, I know that cold molded wood can be even stronger and lighter than fibgerglass, and Night Runner (a Bob Perry design) is an amazing version of this construction method that I have sailed on and is a boat that I admire deeply.

While I understand that wood can be a great boat-building material, you have to understand where I'm coming from too. You see, I still lift up the rug in the living room of my house every hour in order to check the "bilge" for water.

(twitch) (twitch) No wooden boats for me! (twitch)

MedSailor


----------



## Capt Len

In nearly 40 year of coastal cruising the only water in Thanes bilge came in thru the stuffing box (twitch) or a failed pump seal (twitch) . Not that I ever worried about it (twitch) but the odd satisfaction of sailing a homemade woodie made up for the twitch. Not a null tech by any means but built what I knew and could afford at the time.


----------



## outbound

In a few weeks I'll be retired. One of the first projects I'll look into is building a nesting stitch and glue dinghy that with fit my davits and be able to go on the foredeck when passaging without severely obstructing vision. The Walker Bay works fine but I can't row the thing at all. Nor can you reasonably fly fish from it.

Bob- Have you ever drawn something that might work? The plans on the internet are fairly inelegant. What I would really like is something that invokes the sensibilities of a small Whitehall.


----------



## bobperry

Out:
No I have not. I think you need the PT 11 nesting dinghy by Russell Brown.
It comes in kit form and it is a fabulous rowing and sailing dink. Check it out.


----------



## Capt Len

Try Whitehall Reproductions in Victoria. Class act .


----------



## outbound

The Whitehall is drop dead gorgeous but I need to take my world with me. Will measure the foredeck for the R Brown kit. Tx. Bob


----------



## Martinjf

For small and pretty I like:

Eastport Pram -- Ultra-light 8-foot Rowing and Sailing Dinghy -- The Perfect Cruising Tender!


----------



## copacabana

have a look at the Chameleon nesting dinghy by Danny Green.


----------



## TQA

Just for a bit more thread drift there were 8 modern strip planked boats at Antigua Classic Regatta. They had their own class. 

Designed by Sean MaMillan and built by Spirit Yachts. 

The 46 is one of the prettiest modern boats around. Kind of a mini J.


----------



## Classic30

TQA said:


> Just for a bit more thread drift there were 8 modern strip planked boats at Antigua Classic Regatta. They had their own class.


Shhh... "Modern" isn't a word you say too loudly around those folks - it's "Spirit of Tradition"...


----------



## Classic30

TQA said:


> Just for a bit more thread drift there were 8 modern strip planked boats at Antigua Classic Regatta. They had their own class.
> 
> Designed by Sean MaMillan and built by Spirit Yachts.
> 
> The 46 is one of the prettiest modern boats around. Kind of a mini J.


On that subject, comes an interesting article:
Dream boats: the masters of wooden yacht building - Telegraph



> "Above a certain size wooden boats are actually lighter than composite boats, even exotic composites like carbon fibre. Our 100ft boat came in at 48 tonnes; a boat that size in carbon fibre would be closer to 70 tonnes," says McMillan.


Hmm... I'm surprised to hear that.


----------



## mstern

Classic30 said:


> On that subject, comes an interesting article:
> Dream boats: the masters of wooden yacht building - Telegraph
> 
> Hmm... I'm surprised to hear that.


Thanks for that article. Wonderful. Along the same lines, I highly recommend Michael Ruhlman's book "Wooden Boats". It showcases the value of a modern wooden boat through the story of the Benjamin and Gannon boatyard on Martha's Vineyard. For anyone who loves the art, craft and mystique of wooden boats, especially sailboats.


----------



## Brent Swain

Friends who cruised extensively with aluminium versions of Danny Green's nesting dinghy were very happy with them,


----------



## Brent Swain

MedSailor said:


> Brent,
> 
> I have a burning question. Why hit a log boom at hull speed when you tie up to it? Also, why tie up to it at all? They are usually owned by someone and I'd hate to have to move early in the AM because the tug has arrived....
> 
> BTW, thanks for posting the picture of your boat.
> 
> MedSailor


In Alberni canal, there is nothing else to tie up to ,and too deep to anchor.I have ridden a boom down Johnston Strait, pulled by a tug in pea soup fog, no problems. With no engine, T-boning the boom was the easiest way to tie up to it.


----------



## Brent Swain

DJR351 said:


> Sadly another sailboat sunk, although this happened last December and thankfully both crew where rescued, you maybe interested in this one Bob.....She was made out of steel.....
> 
> | what's left of a life
> 
> peterpowell.ca - Home
> 
> .


Wooden hatches ( dead vegetation)explain the sinking. They should have been aluminium.


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Med you may want to take a peak at some cold molded or strip planked boats. With current techniques no more maintenance then glass and as Jeff pointed out when done right stronger then steel as regards weight strength ratio. Active construction of some fine very modern wood boats in Europe, lundenberg canada and elsewhere. U.S. market maybe too biased toward grp discounting merits of other materials.


Steel has a tensile and compression strength of 60,000 lbs PSI, douglas fir 1500PSI. 3/16th steel weighs 7.65 lbs per sq ft ,one inch fir, 3 lbs per sq ft.
It takes around 7 inches of fir to match the tensile strength of 3/16th steel. That thickness of 7 inch fir weighs around 21 lbs per sq ft, compared to 7.65 for steel. Steel has 3 times the strength to weight ratio of fir. Steel can stretch several times it's length, and dent severely, before breaking. Wood is far more brittle and fragile.
The steel has the same strength in all directions , fir in one direction only, being very weak across the grain. The constant rotting out of balsa cores shows how reliable and trouble free wood cores in epoxy are not! Steel rusts from the surface, wood rots from deep within ,giving no warning before you discover it deeply rotten. A steel hull can be pulled together in a matter of days , wood seems to take forever. You don't need a shelter to build a steel boat, with wood it is mandatory. It takes far less skill to build a strong steel boat than wooden one. There is no way to make the hull deck joint on a wooden or plastic boat or hull- keel joint as strong as welded steel.There is nothing stronger, more reliable, permanent and watertight than welding cleats ,and deck hardware down ,no such option with wood or plastic.Such deck gear on wood and plastic boats have to be rebedded every few years , not needed on steel boats with welded down gear.


----------



## outbound

BS there is a major failing in your statement above. I said strength per weight not volume. Quoting psi numbers has no relevance to my statement. If you understood structural design you would know loading on a completed hull or other boat structure is not omnidirectional. Rather in a limited direction amplifying the advantages of modern wood. Even in the canoe body skin double diagonals suffice. You should build to the strength required. Of course not the working load but with sufficient safety margin. Until you get into ships steel is at a disadvantage. Plate required is much heavier than what's needed. As I said above ~45' steel makes reasonable sense but in those sizes origami does not. That's why waterlines are still very desirable and there are many examples of excellent plate on frame sailing yachts at that and greater loa. 
You may also recall weight is the enemy of speed. So if you want slow poorly handling boats with little aesethetic appeal get a BS boat. If you want a strong pretty boat in steel go elsewhere. A good design may offer quite reasonable performance for the full time cruiser as well. If you want a strong elegant fast boat grp,Al, wood and various composites have much to offer with better return on expendenture. 
Been off cruising for a week. When I left a steel trawler was being rehabbed. Due to E P A and other restrictions they had to build a huge shrink wrap and wood framed full enclosure. Had to put in ventilation system for the enclosure as well. Even without the laws doing inside means a good job. Beyond the metal work the prep,paint and sanding will take some weeks of multiple workers. 
Expense is massive and needs to be fully enclosed. Similarly have you ever tried to pull a puddle in Al outside. Gas plows away. Lousy weld. Oxidized and distorted. When doing this with my limited skills I need to be inside with no distractions or I burn through.
So you build your hulls outside. I can weld outside too. But to get a fine yacht think inside is the way to go.


----------



## shank32095

I think I smell something


----------



## bobperry

Dairy farm?


----------



## smackdaddy

Yo Brent, baby, I thought you told everyone over on your Yahoo Cult that you'd given up on SN. Hmm.


----------



## christian.hess

would you guys stop with the back and forth?

why cant this thread offer more info and intelligent discussion...?

seriously...


----------



## christian.hess

Id be interested(to get this back on thread) on other diy steel construction versions out there for cruising boats...

as well as lightweight wood and composite construction methods too...

thanks


----------



## outbound

CH I agree with you and keep trying to redirect to boatbuilding but BS is "my way or the Highway"
Before current boat did reading about various materials. Brent is right to some degree. Fe does offer advantages to the DIY home builder. Steel is forgiving, cheap and even clumsy me could learn to pull a puddle after a few classes at the local tech H.S.
In wood you need a skill set. However most of us have fooled around in wood and already have nearly all the basic tools. Stitch and glue in plywood is even easier than steel.
However once you get up to significant sizes that you would want for cruising origami is limited, plate on frame requires lift equipment and steel becomes much harder for DIY. A friend of my father in law did a 60' trawler in his backyard but he ran a business that required steel fabrication so he was very skilled and had the equipment.
At those sizes strip plank and cold molded come into their own with many boats up to ~100' done that way. But once again best left to the pros. I watched the folks a Covey I. It's amazing to watch them build.


----------



## smackdaddy

christian.hess said:


> Id be interested(to get this back on thread) on other diy steel construction versions out there for cruising boats...
> 
> as well as lightweight wood and composite construction methods too...
> 
> thanks


Done right? Here you go...

Review Of A Steel Offshore Cruising Sailboat


----------



## christian.hess

sorry that link didnt have anything...

christian


----------



## smackdaddy

christian.hess said:


> sorry that link didnt have anything...
> 
> christian


Sorry - I missed your "DIY" qualifier. For the most part, that knocks out the "doing right" factor in my opinion. I actually think the origami method is pretty ingenious - especially for DIYers. But I've never thought it was worth the money or the time for someone who just wants to get out on a boat and cruise.


----------



## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> Sorry - I missed your "DIY" qualifier. For the most part, that knocks out the "doing right" factor in my opinion.


You need to get out more Smack - some of the most exquisite boats I've ever seen have been DIY. True, there is a higher proportion of freaks, abortions and just plain uglies amongst the home brew fleet but all boats need to be taken on their own merits so a whole class of them shouldn't be excluded just on prejudice.

I've also seen lots of sexy fat and/or old women in my day.


----------



## christian.hess

no I meant the link only showed a page with a pic of the boat part 1 of a 3 series

I cruised extensively on a french designed 37 foot modern design steel boat and loved it.

however per the owner it was comissioned with a stubby short mast that greatly reduced sail area and despite the boat looking very modern(think it was a joubert-nivelt design) it was really slow

it was a centerboarder too

my question stemmed from better or well built diy design methods...

to me diy means you have complete control and are meticulous, as was the owner of the boat I sailed on who basically built everything but the hull.


----------



## bobperry

I call them "therapy boats".


----------



## outbound

Bob- Bikers say "you never see a motorcycle parked outside a shrink's office". ?What's wrong with a little therapy. As Chris Cross said "the canvas can do miracles".


----------



## christian.hess

part of the reason I have been so grumpy lately is I sold my offroad motorcycle...

result no real life therapy

that and the boat isnt ready so no sailing

ajajajaja

yikes

get me outta here


----------



## smackdaddy

christian.hess said:


> part of the reason I have been so grumpy lately is I sold my offroad motorcycle...
> 
> result no real life therapy
> 
> that and the boat isnt ready so no sailing
> 
> ajajajaja
> 
> yikes
> 
> get me outta here


Ouch. That sucks. Can you get a ride one someone's boat?

I understand the grumpiness.


----------



## bobperry

Part of the reason I'm so grumpy lately is that by nature I am just grumpy.


----------



## dpratt

I'm grumpy too. We tried hailing Francis Lee last night from our Bystedt 30 when we saw her, heading west, south of the EBM jetty. We got no family recognition.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

Good morning Bob, Smack, JonB and all. Oh and even BS, wherever he might be in his impenetrable Sherman tank with sails, bumping and grinding away at the reefs of the world.

I am down in sunny Florida today, hot, sticky, humid and sunny LOL. I much preferred being up in Port Angeles a few weeks ago, far better weather. I am not on my laptop right now, when I get a chance I will throw a few photos up.

I have been looking at a few boats, I figure I will find one that likes me ( I pretty much like them all, so better the boat chooses me by being the right boat at the right price), some time later this year. My budget keeps fluctuating so much here lately that making a good choice is hard sometimes haha.

Bob, glad to hear you are enjoying racing, I need to get up that way and watch you guys race. I have some friends up in Gig Harbour, and that area, maybe when I get up there we can watch some races from the comfort and convenience of one of their boats. I don't race, all that looks a lot lioe work. Where are you racing? If anyone wants to message me when I am not on here just email me at [email protected]

Mark


----------



## bobperry

Pratt:
I don't think anyone on board would know that the Bystedt was my design. If I see you out there I'll be sure to give you a wave.

Mark:
Come on up for a visity. Spend a night at the shack.


----------



## kimbottles

dpratt said:


> I'm grumpy too. We tried hailing Francis Lee last night from our Bystedt 30 when we saw her, heading west, south of the EBM jetty. We got no family recognition.


We generally answer every hail, so we must have not heard you. Try again next time you see us.

(We also respond to non Perry designed vessels that hail.)


----------



## bobperry

What?


----------



## Brent Swain

Brent Swain said:


> On BD.net, Tad Roberts calculated the AVS on my 36 at 165 degrees, and Jim calculated it at 175 degrees ,posted on the origamiboats site.
> Bob claims that 123 degrees is "a fine number",but 165 and 175 degrees is "unstable?"
> Ya sure , Bob!


Keep reading this, until it eventually sinks in!


----------



## bobperry

BS:
You are a liar and a phony snake oil salesman. You ARE BS.

You will have to show me the exact quote where I say "165 and 175 degrees is "unstable?" but you can't because you are making things up again .

Show me the quote or shut up. Show me the quote.

I know you are a bit slow so let me say it again:
Show me the exact quote or shut up.
I don't think you have any credibility left here. But,,,,you are slow.
Here is some reality for you.





Note that the only boat to beat FRANCIS is MERIDIAN also my design.


----------



## outbound

Maybe I'm a little slow. I can't understand how a boat with the weight of a steel deck and house and with relatively short keel(s) can generate the numbers he quotes. I'm not a N.A. Are the numbers BS quotes in the realm of reality unless he is entirely filling the keel(s) with spent uranium or just more BS? From my limited understanding enough weight to generate the obligate RM would raise the waterline resulting in no freeboard. ?Am I missing something? Is he saying a boat just about upside down at 175 degrees is still stable?


----------



## bobperry

Out:
It's a mystery to me.
Imagine being at 174 degrees and telling your wife, "Don't worry dear we have one degree of positive stability left".

The fact is that BS has no knowledge at all of the reality of stability. He relies on others to come up with silly numbers. I know Tad and I really doubt Tad did a weight study on a BS boat. Without a weight study you CANNOT HAVE a VCG. Without an accurate VCG your stability calcs are useless. It all starts with a VCG. This is just basic naval architecture 101. I was struggling with this when I was 16 years old. It was not easy. But I stuck with it and today I am very comfortable with the math.

All an intelligent person has to do is to look at the published stability numbers for any number of boats featured in today's rags. Stability is no longer a guess. BS numbers are off the chart. He would be laughed out of any gathering of bonafide yacht designers.

My wife and her friend Kristen will have Copper River Sockeye for dinner. Me,,,I think a BBQ hamburger will do just fine. I use that really cheap bright yellow mustard. It reminds me of taking my sons to baseball games. It's the taste of memories.


----------



## Jeff_H

While 175 degrees of positive stability seems beyond belief for almost any boat, there are some items in his designs which Brent has described that do contribute to a higher limit of positive stability than might otherwise be expected. In other conversations, Brent has pointed out that his masts are also steel and that they are welded closed at the ends so they contain air and add inverted righting buoyancy. He also assumes that the pilot house will be dogged shut in heavy going and the volume of pilot house will also help right the boat. 

Outbound, are you in Maryland ?

Jeff


----------



## bobperry

Jeff:
How do I say this nicely,,,,,,you are nuts!

It's a welded steel mast with external halyards.
Do you have any idea what that would weigh?
Do you have any idea what that would do to the VCG?

How about this: You make for us a list of all the successful boats with welded steel masts. Take your time. I don't want you to miss any boats. But try not to include any pig boats oi your list, just the good sailing, successful models. With steel masts.

I can't think of any so I need your help with this.


----------



## MedSailor

bobperry said:


> Out:
> It's a mystery to me.
> Imagine being at 174 degrees and telling your wife, "Don't worry dear we have one degree of positive stability left".
> 
> The fact is that BS has no knowledge at all of the reality of stability. He relies on others to come up with silly numbers. I know Tad and I really doubt Tad did a weight study on a BS boat. Without a weight study you CANNOT HAVE a VCG. Without an accurate VCG your stability calcs are useless. It all starts with a VCG. This is just basic naval architecture 101. I was struggling with this when I was 16 years old. It was not easy. But I stuck with it and today I am very comfortable with the math.
> 
> All an intelligent person has to do is to look at the published stability numbers for any number of boats featured in today's rags. Stability is no longer a guess. BS numbers are off the chart. _*He would be laughed out of any gathering of bonafide yacht designers.*_
> 
> My wife and her friend Kristen will have Copper River Sockeye for dinner. Me,,,I think a BBQ hamburger will do just fine. I use that really cheap bright yellow mustard. It reminds me of taking my sons to baseball games. It's the taste of memories.


Don't worry. *He HAS been laughed out of gatherings of bonafide yacht designers on a REGULAR basis*.

Here's a thread that was started over at boatdesign.net. The second reply to this thread is the Administrator talking about how the BS threads (there are many) all degrade into personal attacks and the real designers have concerns for other's safety. This is the first post:
Kind of missing old Brent Swain, aka Jack Hickson... - Boat Design Forums

_Wonder what happened to this once formidable adversary

Although he brought out the worst of us with his hillbilly like reasoning for most things structural, his challenges for demolition derby's, not to mention his repetitive pointless rants and sometimes insulting nature, for reasons I cannot fathom, I do miss the great man

He gave us so much fun, grey hair and near heart attacks, but that were far better than some posters we currently have and one troll comes to mind with his dubious ways, but let me not get personal as its against forum rules
Brent then came back at one stage as the noble Jack Hickson in the notorious "stability" thread and oh boy, was that fun until Jeff stepped in as were the usual results in BS threads/posts.

That said, the guy did helped a lot of people getting to built their own boats although the numbers he quotes are highly suspect. He really went out of his way with tips how to get there tubs build on a shoestring budget and for that I salute him. 
In hindsight, perhaps I should have looked at his boats and endeavors through Brent's glasses instead of bullying him in posts with "proper" boatbuilding techniques and maths. Now a bit older after the fact makes me feel a bit guilty, but then again, old Brent had a mean streak himself when for instance when he lost a showdown with me reverting to insults like calling me obese and a racist. But then again, that was Brent's nature and to be expected - I even remember a post where I and others were challenged to stepping into a boxing ring with him..

Brent made claims that he cruises for about 10 months of a year which again, quite a few of us took with some salt, but its about 18 months if memory serves me right since we last heard of the great man himself. I wonder if he is still around and well or did his own creation became his epitaph on one of his cruises? Hope not.

Brent, if you by any chance read this, why not say hello and tell us about your recent travels_


----------



## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> Jeff:
> How do I say this nicely,,,,,,you are nuts!
> 
> It's a welded steel mast with external halyards.
> Do you have any idea what that would weigh?
> Do you have any idea what that would do to the VCG?
> 
> How about this: You make for us a list of all the successful boats with welded steel masts. Take your time. I don't want you to miss any boats. But try not to include any pig boats oi your list, just the good sailing, successful models. With steel masts.
> 
> I can't think of any so I need your help with this.


Bob,

I am in 100% agreement with you. I am nuts.

As to you points, Starting from the bottom up, the only other designer that I know of using steel masts is Colvin and your exclusion of 'pigs boats' would exclude him.

As to the sealed mast thing, earlier in this thread I asked Brent about the scantlings for his steel mast and he cited a diam. and schedule. I calculated the weight OF THE SECTION and buoyancy of the trapped air and it turned out to be a net positive number I think in the 10-12 lb/ft range. Assuming a 35 foot mast and assuming it was not lost in a roll over, ( big assumptions I would agree) I would think with that long a lever arm, the mast could contribute to a larger LPS than might otherwise be expected, the extent of which I would not dare to speculate on. That said, I have no reason to believe that the claimed 175 degree LPS is anything like accurate.

I also agree with you point that until submerged that steel mast would result in significantly higher heel angles and a greater likelihood of submerging that mast in the water. Not to mention the large roll angles implicit in that much top hamper.

Jeff


----------



## outbound

Currently have the anchor down in Bristol R.I. 300' from the museum. 80 degrees and no wind so having lunch. Still having yard work on boat. Creating much stronger supports in case we knock down or get pooped bad. So stuck day sailing for next couple of weeks. Don't have 175 so have to think about these things.


----------



## christian.hess

ive seen and heard great things about sealed masts in composite construction especially in dinghies and small boat racers etc...the bouyancy is real its just not a selling point I think on a steel boat at all...especially one with a steel heavy mast...

anywhoo


----------



## outbound

Given Al and CF are more common and internal halyards are common as well- why aren't sticks built with conduit for the strings with the rest filled with closed cell foam?
If it's just money could you retrofit this?


----------



## bobperry

Yes, I can see a sealed mast in a Laser or a boat like my Escape that has an enclosed/sealed mast. But those boats dont have halyards they have sleaved mains that slip over the mast. On a boat with halyards you are better off with them internal for windage. Conduits and foam would add weight.

There is a real good reason you don't see good well designed boats with steel masts.


----------



## shank32095

"There is a real good reason you don't see good well designed boats with steel masts."

Check Mate

Next


----------



## dpratt

bobperry said:


> Pratt:
> "I don't think anyone on board would know that the Bystedt was my design. If I see you out there I'll be sure to give you a wave."


Agreed, as there aren't many examples of the Bystedt out there... but we're sure having fun on ours. Had you been aboard Francis Lee at the time, I figured we were giving you the opportunity for a double-take: "hmm, that boat sure looks familiar"!


----------



## bobperry

Pratski:
I owned hull number one Bystedt CHINOOK. I still have the half model.


----------



## dpratt

kimbottles said:


> We generally answer every hail, so we must have not heard you. Try again next time you see us.
> 
> (We also respond to non Perry designed vessels that hail.)


No worries... it wasn't a radio hail, more like a shouted "Hey, Bob", just on the chance that BP was on board and would get a kick out of recognizing one of his less frequently seen designs. We were pleased to see the Francis Lee in person, and recognized her thanks to this thread. I've been lurking for a while (who doesn't enjoy seeing BP, BS, Smack and others duking it out?). The positive thread drift about a new design plying the waters of our back yard is refreshing. Thanks for the reply.


----------



## dpratt

bobperry said:


> Pratski:
> I owned hull number one Bystedt CHINOOK. I still have the half model.


Good to know; thanks. Let me know if you're ever inclined to clean house.  
I wonder if CHINOOK is still in the area? 
TEGARRI, which was pictured on the original marketing brochures, was repainted in blue AwlGrip, and is still active and moored in Ballard. The current owner of that boat talked with the owner of another Bystedt passing by in the Ship Canal, but I haven't seen that one myself. 
We purchased ours in Everett several years ago; originally red gelcoat (still red, but repainted). It was named ROSETTA 1 when we purchased her, since renamed "SCOUT". Ours has been moored at EBM since we got her. 
There's another red Bystedt in Portland which was listed on YachtWorld a while back, but I don't know the current status. Then there's GOOD NEWS, which tore it up on the local racing circuit for many years under a previous owner (he now races a J boat, "Great White"). 
Our old girl is still going strong, and getting younger with every completed project.
Back to the spirit of the thread: I'm glad that this is not a steel boat.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

bobperry said:


> Yes, I can see a sealed mast in a Laser or a boat like my Escape that has an enclosed/sealed mast. But those boats dont have halyards they have sleaved mains that slip over the mast. On a boat with halyards you are better off with them internal for windage. Conduits and foam would add weight.
> 
> There is a real good reason you don't see good well designed boats with steel masts.


I think that reason might be because having a BS mast might look like having a stick of oilfield casing for a mast. I can just see ol Brent scrounging around and finding his perfect mast, a 47 foot piece of 7 1/2 " P110 casing, threaded on the male end with an 8 round thread and a seal ring that woukd be airtight, weld a plug in the collar on the female end and it's a mast LOL. Complete with an API number on the side rating it for pressure....

Yep, that would be about 23 pounds a foot of steel weight.


----------



## Bob142

Drill stem would be lighter ...


----------



## Jaramaz

bobperry said:


> Pratski:
> I owned hull number one Bystedt CHINOOK. I still have the half model.


Why was the design named Bystedt? Unusual name for a boat design, rings somewhat famliliar to me. Like an IKEA name ... (don't hit me, just asking).

/J


----------



## bobperry

Jaramaz:
You will have to take up the IKEA thing with the client for the boat. His name was Gary Bystedt.


----------



## MedSailor

So is the Bystead 30 a typical "furniture boat?" 

MedSailor


----------



## bobperry

The Bystedt 30 was designed to the IOR half ton limit, 21.5. It has a basic interior and I did cruise mine a bit. But at that time we had a very active half ton racing fleet in the PNW and primary use of the boat was racing. In no way is it a "furniture boat". Not sure I even know what that means. But if it means lots of furniture the answer is no.


----------



## MedSailor

bobperry said:


> The Bystedt 30 was designed to the IOR half ton limit, 21.5. It has a basic interior and I did cruise mine a bit. But at that time we had a very active half ton racing fleet in the PNW and primary use of the boat was racing. In no way is it a "furniture boat". Not sure I even know what that means. But if it means lots of furniture the answer is no.


It was a term I herd often as the owner of a Formosa 41. Yes, it means a boat with a lot of wood down below and is usually uttered by racers in a derogatory way. For example, "I can't believe we got overtaken by the furniture boat (Airloom) again!"

I thought it was a nice double entendre to follow on to the Ikea-name reference. I'm starting to wonder who I'm going to get to laugh first, you or my cat. I'll keep trying at both and see who cracks up first. 

MedSailor


----------



## bobperry

Med:
I understood exactly what ytou were doing.

Hope you are getting good info on your headsail quewstion for your new boat. I have probably designed more double headsail rigs than any other living designer. I do know the answers but you are getting so much help I have decided to stay out of it. If you feel like you need the right answers I'm available.


----------



## MedSailor

bobperry said:


> Med:
> I understood exactly what ytou were doing.
> 
> Hope you are getting good info on your headsail quewstion for your new boat. I have probably designed more double headsail rigs than any other living designer. I do know the answers but you are getting so much help I have decided to stay out of it. If you feel like you need the right answers I'm available.


You understood? But did you laugh? Smirk? Eh, I'll try harder next time. 

Thanks for the offer to help with the rig question. I know you have forgotten more about cutters (and other double headsail rigs) than most of us will ever know. I will take you up on your offer! PM Sent.

Thanks Bob,
MedSailor


----------



## bobperry

Med:
Yes, I smirked. Answer to your PM sent a couple of hours ago.


----------



## Brent Swain

Jeff_H said:


> While 175 degrees of positive stability seems beyond belief for almost any boat, there are some items in his designs which Brent has described that do contribute to a higher limit of positive stability than might otherwise be expected. In other conversations, Brent has pointed out that his masts are also steel and that they are welded closed at the ends so they contain air and add inverted righting buoyancy. He also assumes that the pilot house will be dogged shut in heavy going and the volume of pilot house will also help right the boat.
> 
> Outbound, are you in Maryland ?
> 
> Jeff


There was a great article in December 89 issue of Cruising world on the subject of capsize. It gives the stability curve of an older design as having positive stability to 180 degrees. It was common on those older, narrower, deep hulled boats . Don't know if the article was archived. It shows how a slightly heavier rig actually reduces the odds of capsize, as Bob pointed out on the origamiboats site. The article points out how, when a wave hits a boat broadside, it takes longer for the mast to be set in motion than it takes for the wave to pass. Target archers use this principle with long stabilizers on target bows.
The steel tubing we use for masts is 6 inch OD with an 11 gauge wall, 7.54 pounds per foot, only slightly heavier than a solid 6 inch fir, or the 5 1/2 inch by 8 1/2 inch by 1 1/4 inch wall box sections commonly used on boats this size. When we began using steel masts, the material for a steel mast was $300, an aluminium extrusion, $6,000. Only two boats have had their steel mast changed for aluminium. Both had much larger tubing, 6 5/8th by 10 gauge wall, 9.35 lbs per foot. Both said the difference would have not been worth it had they had the lighter 6 inch tubing. Both said the difference was minimal. People who have done Pacific crossings and circumnavigations with steel masts have not felt the need to switch to aluminium. Two are just finishing circumnavigations at the moment.
Bob confirmed this, when earlier in this thread, he mentioned a client who spent a fortune on a carbon fibre mast ,only to find the difference in sailing was barely noticeable. The numbers were impressive, the reality far less so.
Yes aluminium is better choice, if you don't have to give up a lot of cruising to pay for them. Used aluminiumn masts are becoming far more available and much cheaper, but if you don't have the money or the mast, a steel mast will get you cruising for the time it takes to find an affordable aluminium mast.
Maybe,like most, you wont feel the need to change it. Very few have.

My aluminium hatches are as watertight as the lid on a pressure cooker, making wheelhouse buoyancy a major factor in ultimate stability , not an option with sliding hatches.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> There was a great article in December 89 issue of Cruising world on the subject of capsize. It gives the stability curve of an older design as having positive stability to 180 degrees. It was common on those older, narrower, deep hulled boats .


Oh boy, here we go again.


----------



## bobperry

BS :
You still don't get it.
"It gives the stability curve of an older design as having positive stability to 180 degrees."
Probably theoretically possible but at that angle, say 179 degs. there is so little Rm left that it's not going top do you much good. For practicality at that point you are going over. You are over. I have never seen a credible stabiliity curve with positive Rm to 180m degs. I don't care where you read it. Maybe some freak plank on edge type but "normal" boats, no way.

It is impossible to have any Rm at 180 degrees just as it is to have any Rm at zero degrees. VCG and CB are lined up at those angles and the boat has no Rm at all. You simply do not understand stability BS. Any boat has to heel; before there is any Righting Moment. This is simple NA 101. This is why some beamy boats are perfectly stable at 180 degrees inverted. They have NO Rm at 180 degs and almost none at 179 degs.

Picture telling your wife as you heel to 178 degrees, "Relax honey, we still have positive Rm."


----------



## smackdaddy

I'm sure it was just a typo.

"BS Yachts - Designed by a dude who knows dangerously little, and built by dudes who know even less. Get yours today!"


----------



## Dirtyfloats

Actually smack, as i have told you before. I am very happy with the design of my boat, and also very happy to be building it myself. Even if that means that "i know very little" 

I think the fact of.the matter is that you don't know anything about these boats except for you initial biases. 
they are all quite successful go anywhere boats. 

Ohh, and where i come from "yacht" is a bad word...
We have boats.

Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


----------



## blt2ski

I seem to recall somewhere, BP can probably correct me on the actual figure......as he is alluding to, once you get to IIRC 140-150* of straight up, you are going to do a 360 whether you like it or not! So in reality, having a 180RM as BS is saying we should have, is probably not a good thing, to me that would be like saying the boat will be more stable upside down, than right side up. ALA the boat the went over during the Chi-Mac a year or two ago! Did a 180, and stayed there! or some of the SH Ocean racers, when they lose a bulb, they go to the 180 position. 

I may be off the mark here in how I am typing, but brain seems to know what I am trying to get out.

Marty


----------



## smackdaddy

Dirtyfloats said:


> Actually smack, as i have told you before. I am very happy with the design of my boat, and also very happy to be building it myself. Even if that means that "i know very little"
> 
> I think the fact of.the matter is that you don't know anything about these boats except for you initial biases.
> they are all quite successful go anywhere boats.
> 
> Ohh, and where i come from "yacht" is a bad word...
> We have boats.
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


I know dirty. I just can't help but swing at the slow pitches. You know how it is.

The little I know about steel boats I've learned in this thread. I've learned a lot from Brent. But most of it isn't all that great. I've learned a lot more from guys like Bob and Out and others who know a thing or two about the mathematics of design AND working with various materials (including steel).

I guarantee you that you know WAY more than I ever will about working with steel and understanding how put it together into something functional. I respect that. You know a lot. My comment was more about all the unfortunate people who have unfinished, rusting hulls in their backyards (many of them documented herein) - or, worse, those that actually "finished" their boat, learning as they went (i.e. - making tons of mistakes), then ended up selling it to an unsuspecting schlub. That's dangerous man!

As for me, my boat is a yacht. I like having a yacht. It's cool. And it's fast. And it will take me virtually anywhere I wanna go.

BUT, when I'm down at Cape Horn this winter, I'll probably be sailing it in a steel boat. So everything has its place. Brent just isn't able to see that. Maybe you are.


----------



## bobperry

Yachts? Boats? they are just words. I like quality design work that shows the skill of the designer. You may love your boat but you and I have far different standards. Enjoy yours.

My own standards are very high. I want to see a boat produced by a designer who knows his craft and can produce the design work to prove it. 

Fact is and it has been shown here ad nauseum that BS has no feel or understanding of numbers. He's a quack, Dulcamara.

"Yacht" is not a "bad word" where I come from. It's just a word. Why quibble about tiny nuances in semantics? I call my house on the beach my "shack". Shack is just a word. Tonight my Chinese exchange student will go for a swim in my indoor swimming pool.

Yachts are cool. 
I am a yacht designer.
Boats are cool. I love boats. So long as they are well designed.

It's a comfy shack.


----------



## outbound

Suggest any one interested should read the thread on origami in boat design.net. Convincingly puts to rest BS's BS claims. The beach ball with 2% ballast was delightful as was running up on a sunken barge. The coup de grace was critique of build quality and referencing tradition plate on frame ends up taking about the same amount of time. I'm not a boat designer or builder. I have never welded for my daily nut. But seems folks who are pros at this stuff don't hold stock in the BS. Also find it interesting it seems this BS version of a probably viable technique is limited to such a small region. All other building techniques seem to be employed the world over. Makes you wonder.


----------



## bobperry

My exchange student is swimming now. I gave him spaghetti for dinner. A first for him.
I had him make his own lunch today, one chicken sandwich and one beef sandwich. I had him do all the work. When I picked him up today I asked him how his lunch was. He said, very good. Then he said, "Mine was the best." Makes a dad feel good. Tomorrow he gets waffles. He did not want to try an eclair. I guess I'll have to eat them all. He does like chocolate milk. It will be interesting in the morning to see how he modifies his sandwich building.


----------



## smackdaddy

Have him try an Origami Hoagie.


----------



## outbound

Saw the bottom of a V42 that ran into a rock at full hull speed. Apparently the rock was just below the surface. The operator was a very experienced sailor with great local knowledge but was so enthralled by having the bone in the teeth while beating he lost situational awareness.
Repair was grinding out the glass -then rebuild - then barrier coat - then bottom paint. They hit forward end of keel. No damage to aft junction where keel meets canoe body. Boat was fully loaded with all stores for extended cruising at the time. Surveyor declared boat structurally sound to continue her ocean voyaging. 
Guess if done right those plastic boats are pretty tough. Unlike dented origami can be returned to Bristol fashion without too much grief.
Much to say for solid ( no core) grp. Glad my boat has same construction. Believe core is much stronger per weight but more problematic if you have a boo boo. Also note absence of a liner makes survey and possibly repair much easier.


----------



## christian.hess

great post outbound.

many expound on the strength per weight ratios of new composite construction but often forget that its hull thickness especially in the case of glass that will help you in grounding scenarios, direct hits, etc...

yes it might not be as strong per wieght or usefull(for example old resin rich hand laid up hulls) in most hull scenarios BUT one must not forget that HULL THICKNESS is a very very very important feature to have for cruisers...


----------



## AlaskaMC

smackdaddy said:


> Have him try an Origami Hoagie.


And just imagine how long that Origami Hoagie could stand being grounded against a pile of Ruffles without being holed.

See if your yachtie grinder could do the same with it's weak rich man's bread. I bet it was designed by a professional bread maker that spends all his time trying to rip off poor boy fans with dreams of far off sandwiches.


----------



## SloopJonB

I was looking at Boatdesign.net and found the origami section was much like this one so I did a little research in the DSM.

*Symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder
*
In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
Requires excessive admiration
Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Remind you of anyone?


----------



## christian.hess

yikes


----------



## djodenda

AlaskaMC said:


> And just imagine how long that Origami Hoagie could stand being grounded against a pile of Ruffles without being holed.
> 
> See if your yachtie grinder could do the same with it's weak rich man's bread. I bet it was designed by a professional bread maker that spends all his time trying to rip off poor boy fans with dreams of far off sandwiches.


OK.. that was pretty funny...


----------



## AlaskaMC

djodenda said:


> OK.. that was pretty funny...


Hey! Your from Kirkland. Help me find a boat over on my boat love thread. It's the cool thing to do after all. Help other sailnetters spend money :laugher

Or everyone could keep fighting over this thread that was essentially solved about a jillion pages back.

Every time I come in here it reminds me of when you leave a bar late at night in the middle of a conversation, and one thing leads to another and hours later you stumble back into the same bar to find the same people arguing the same fight still and just as emphatically as they were back when it started. Much like this one it is made of one person arguing the impossible while everyone else tries to convince them that they are wrong, even though they are a fanatic. Funny to watch, but kinda sad at the same time.

I had a friend way back in a conversation like this over if the world was going to end in 2000. The wise friend made a bet with the less grounded friend, that if the world ended, he lost, but if it didn't, the less wise friend would owe him lots of money. Believe it or not the obviously wrong friend (isn't hindsight great) made the bet no matter how stupid it was. He was willing to enter into an un-winnable bet just to show that he was right. He paid the dept.  You can't convince crazy that it is crazy.


----------



## Bob142

WOW....Complete psychiatric evaluations from a few internet postings...WOW...


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## SloopJonB

Not hardly, just some interesting info.


----------



## smackdaddy

Batshat crazy is batshat crazy. Whaddayagonnado?


----------



## desert rat

Alaska name the thread. Aluminum, steel, GRP, composit, wood, does it float, more important is it; a SCHOONER.


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## blt2ski

Deodenja THINKS he is in kirkland, but in reality, he is in Bothell IIRC........but, Kirkland is a much better place to call home! 

So is there a boat in little old Kirks Land that is interesting to you?

Oh, and watch out for folks that lived in Kirkland and went to one of the high schools there, the mascot is some funky long legged fighting marsupial from down under. Her name is Lizzy.....do not ask me how I know........

Marty


----------



## AlaskaMC

Nah, not in Kirkland per se, but hey isn't all that down there just essentially Seattle anyway? 

_Alaska runs for cover..._


----------



## blt2ski

Yeah, ye better run for cover, that is like saying everything up that away you can see the ruskies or some such thing........well maybe......

Now I am seeing where your thread is leading you too. MSC in Anacortes is about 1 to 1.5 hrs north of Seattle, Bellingham another hr or so north yet. Easier except for customs to get to bellingham from Vancouver BC vs Seattle. Too bad that broker up north is not helping you. I know of a couple out of the Seattle office that are good folks......


----------



## AlaskaMC

Yep, heading to Anacortes soon it seems. Can't do anything until July is done due to previous commitments but likely gonna head down the first week of August or so. 

And hey, I live one lake over from the famous porch that can see Russia. I wish I could. I think that dang spruce is blocking the view.


----------



## outbound

Have had to deal the DSM for last 35y. Problem is in my job I usually don't care if you are crazy I just care if your brain works. Other issue is some feel the folks writing the DSM may not be too grounded either. More a political document then true science in some folks view.
Find this thread endlessly fun not for BS but for the philosophy and wisdom other posters impart. The drift has been more fun then the thread.
Speaking of which very curious about Bob's take on cutter rigs. Have owned cutters with free footed staysails, boomed staysails (PSC,T37, various Cape Dories) and now a solent. Found with all cutters rare to fly both headsails. Found boomed staysails a PIA and defeats the purpose in heavy air or when you want to hove to. Think self tacking jibs a waste of time in general even for single handers with exception of wet boat sailing and the 12 1/2s. Think solent makes much more sense. Better design for getting effective sails. Less crap in your way when you are on the foredeck. Easier to handle now that hanked sails are a thing of the past with reliable roller furling. Allows a dedicated true storm jib on its own dedicated stay. So Bob in this day and age is there a place for a true cutter? Doesn't the current crop of big main / multiple rolling furled headsails make more sense? Gonna agree the cutter is prettier and most solents risk looking fairly industrial in comparison but I've given up on tanbark sails -shouldn't we give up on the cutter as well? ( tweak, tweak,)


----------



## Jaramaz

Well, then I say that a self tacking jib is not bad at all. It all depends on where and why, of course. 

I am mainly sailing in a archipelago with many (very) islands, it is nearly endless. Sailing areas are usually stretched in long & narrow passages / sounds. As it is with such, either the wind is with you or against. Strange thing is, mainly against.

When sailing against the wind in these passages a self-tacker is a blessing. Sometimes a tack lasts less than a minute. The possibility to just turn without involving 2-3 others in the crew is worth a lot. The alternative is actually the engine. 

In open sea a self tacker is close to worthless. Then a normal jib is superior, if not using a genua (sorry, Genoa). 

I know that many claim that the use of a self tacker is just lazyness. It is not, in the right environment. It gives the possibility to continue sailing instead of starting the puff-puff. 

/J

PS: I have had some doubts on DSM being science for some years.


----------



## outbound

J- Have to agree with everything you said. Fortunately don't often sail in the confines you commonly find. In your setting it makes perfect sense. Infinitely preferable to the noise of the engine. I still have the bumps on my shins from banging into the boom of prior boats with self tacking jibs. Could never get it into my thick skull that it was there. Hence my aversion. That plus the added difficulty in getting good sail shape. There is a major downside to the solent. When you want to tack or gybe the genny you need to roll it in, do the evolution, then roll it out. Main reason I put power on the primaries. Otherwise grinding is no issue. Still thought cutters were purpose built for boats where the sails commonly go up for more then a day. Otherwise why not just have a sloop. A lot less string to deal with and less expense. Hoping Bob would do a plus/minus on cutter (mast near or at center of effort) v. Solent (mast forward of center of effort and all head sails way forward).


----------



## SloopJonB

outbound said:


> Have had to deal the DSM for last 35y. Problem is in my job I usually don't care if you are crazy I just care if your brain works. Other issue is some feel the folks writing the DSM may not be too grounded either. More a political document then true science in some folks view.


I think everything to do with human psychology is considerably less than pure science - it seems to be at least 50% "art" or interpretation and comparison to current social norms. If I am not mistaken, homosexuality was in the DSM at one time not long ago.

I have checked myself against some of the "disturbances" in it - it's surprising how many symptoms of various things fit. 

I suspect that is the case with most people.


----------



## bobperry

Out:
I agree with you on cutter rigs. I outgrew the cutter rig many years ago. It has it's moments reaching but upwind and down it has problems. Reducing sail by dropping the yankee is too big a reduction usually and it brings the C of P aft when it needs to be forward. If you are a really lazy sailor maybe the cutter rig will work for you. I prefer a fractional sloop rig with big main and non overlapping jibs. I think I am responsible for more cutters on the water than any other living designer. I know that rig very well.


----------



## MedSailor

Any thoughts Bob on if the ketch rig still has its place? I hold this biased notion that people often give up too much in the name of "pointing" and "a weatherly boat" and then sign up for a downwind circumnavigation. Why noa a ketch that shines when she is off the wind but is weatherly enough? 

Relic in this modern era or does she still have a valid niche fron a designer's point if view? 

Medsailor


----------



## Jeff_H

MedSailor said:


> Any thoughts Bob on if the ketch rig still has its place? I hold this biased notion that people often give up too much in the name of "pointing" and "a weatherly boat" and then sign up for a downwind circumnavigation. Why noa a ketch that shines when she is off the wind but is weatherly enough?
> 
> Relic in this modern era or does she still have a valid niche fron a designer's point if view?
> 
> Medsailor


I am not Bob, and like you I am interested in seeing Bob's opinion on this, but I would like to express my point of view. I would say that, yes a ketch is a relic in this modern era, but not for the reasons that you might think. A ketch rig actually works well on a boat that has a lot of drag for its stability. The advantage in that case is that a ketch generates a lot of drive force for comparatively little heeling forces. That comes at the price that ketches are inferior rigs when running and beating, only coming into their own when all sails have relatively clear air flows on a reach.

And that gets to the reason that I see the ketch as a relic of a bygone era which is less about the rig alone, and more about a boat as a system. If the ketch rig is considered in the context with modern yacht design theory, most modern boats are designed to sail well on all points of sail. This is done by having a huge amount of stability relative their a comparatively small amount of drag. Because of their relative high stability, modern can carry a lot more sail relative to their displacements and drag, and carry it a lot more efficiently than would be possible on older style hulls.

Placing a ketch rig on a modern hull would be giving up a lot of performance on all points of sail, buit especially upwind and downwind, and conceptually produces a boat that is unnecessarily more expensive to build, and which is harder to handle since many of the modern sail shape controls would be very difficult (or complex) to do on a ketch.

And before someone jumps in and says, "Jeff just hates ketches", as Bob can attest, just last year, I was considering partnering on a Roxinante.

Jeff


----------



## outbound

So Chris White has done away with any boomed sails on his latest Atlantic. Was on the boat in Annapolis last year and other than dealing with two masts with foils seemed an imminently good rig for cruising. Can we expect to see this applied to monohulls. 
Much talk about Bene soon to market "hard" sails. See the benefits aerodynamically but would be scared to see that rig on anything but a coastal cruiser.
Jeff/Bob- where do you see rig development going? Personally well pleased with my masthead rig. Know I'm giving up some degree of main shaping as my backstay tension does little but tension the forestays but simple, redundant, hard to break and easier to jury rig when it does. Always believed it more important to get the sails down than up from a safety point of view. Foils scare me with their complexity.


----------



## christian.hess

I like bobs new frac rig...I think thats my preffered too I learned to love it sailing my folkboat.

mastheads while great and simple dont offer much in the way of tuneability once going...

just my perception...


----------



## bobperry

I don't feel like generalizing about the merits of rig types. There are good ketches and bad ketches. I like the good ones. My new 63' ketch at PSC will soon be finished. My ketches are good boats.


----------



## christian.hess

oh how unbiased of you! jajajajaja

kidding

I love ketches...miss my old h28 sometimes for sure


----------



## bobperry

Of course I am biased. If I saw something on my design I did not like I would change it until I liked it. Simple as that. I am confident that I know what I am doing. I have to be.


----------



## christian.hess

exactly...


----------



## Classic30

bobperry said:


> I don't feel like generalizing about the merits of rig types. There are good ketches and bad ketches. I like the good ones. My new 63' ketch at PSC will soon be finished. My ketches are good boats.


In my view (as a non-ketch owner), a 'good ketch' is one that stays to leeward of me and a 'bad ketch' is one that sails over the top and leaves me parked under the lee of their enormous cloud of canvas..

Floating wind-breaks I call 'em.


----------



## outbound

Huge advantage to any split rig for the cruiser is the smaller size of the individual sails. Now with just about any frac rigged sloop over 40' the size of the main precludes the old " man and a boy" concept or you are dependent on your power winches if g-d forbid you want to sail.


----------



## Jeff_H

outbound said:


> Huge advantage to any split rig for the cruiser is the smaller size of the individual sails. Now with just about any frac rigged sloop over 40' the size of the main precludes the old " man and a boy" concept or you are dependent on your power winches if g-d forbid you want to sail.


But I am not sure that is really true. I am seeing more and more boats with 2:1 main halyards. And modern sail cloth is lighter than the Dacron sail cloths it replaces. So I think that the case can be made that a ketch rig is very hard to justify on a 'modern' hull until you start to get up to a pretty big rig.

Jeff


----------



## blt2ski

Classic30 said:


> In my view (as a non-ketch owner), a 'good ketch' is one that stays to leeward of me and a 'bad ketch' is one that sails over the top and leaves me parked under the lee of their enormous cloud of canvas..
> 
> Floating wind-breaks I call 'em.


Well ye know, as I have said a day or three ago, git rid of that OOOOOOOLD woodie, ie get a ULDB instead of the UHSB, and you can figure out apparent wind! yep, that is me story, and I will stick to it!

oh, working on the plans to raid BP bluff north of marysville when ye get here next year!

marty


----------



## bobperry

I designed both cutter and ketch versions of the Tayana 37. I always preferred the ketch. It just plain sailed better and had a much nicer feel.


----------



## Jaramaz

Jeff_H said:


> But I am not sure that is really true. I am seeing more and more boats with 2:1 main halyards. And modern sail cloth is lighter than the Dacron sail cloths it replaces. So I think that the case can be made that a ketch rig is very hard to justify on a 'modern' hull until you start to get up to a pretty big rig.
> 
> Jeff


Well, I tried with a 2:1 on my main halyard, used a 8 mm Dyneema. Strength was good, easy to lift (endless of rope in the cockpit), but it was difficult to get the main down. I want the main to drop down, right down without any hassle. It doesn't with a 2:1.

I have also gone to lighter sail material, finally the difference is not that much.

Even is I do not agree with Jeffs argument on this part, I agree that a sloop rig is easier, simplier and often faster (although this latter argument is a matter of design).

/J


----------



## bobperry

Jara:
We have a two part main hal on FRANCIS and like you miles of line. But in our case it drops very easily.


----------



## outbound

Have the new fangled cars and good batten attachments. First two reefs are single line ( third traditional double) so friction was a big deal. Agree with good gear dropping main a non issue. Especially with Dutchman. Let off the clutch and down she comes. However, even with Vectran the main for my 46' boat is all I can handle. I can pull it up ~3/4 of the way without the winch. Next 1/8th with first speed. Last bit need to go to two speed. That winch is powered so just push the button. Still like to grind the last little bit. However, never want a sail so big I can't fly or strike it without dependence on power. Think this is going to be mid 40's for most of us lumps with the various versions of sloops. But ketch or schooner maybe mid 60's if well thought out . Battens weigh, sail weights, always going to be some friction.


----------



## Jaramaz

Agree that it is not a general truth that the main doesn't drop with 1:2 halyards. 

I have too much friction in my system, with full battens, not the very best cars to the luff, and the halyard make a lot of turns. 

Tried to improve, but it is difficult. 1:2 was an interesting test. 

/J


----------



## Brent Swain

Richard Till of Gibsons BC in his 36 ft Brentboat , hit a rock off Stuart Island, while doing 6 knots, When he hauled her he found a tiny dent in the leading edge of the keel, which he repaired while the boat was still in the travel lift slings, with a level teaspoon of underwater epoxy ,then re- launched her, immediately. He said a fiend of his hit a rock at the same speed on the same point of the keel in a Hunter 40. It pulled out the keel bolts of the Hunter , doing major damage, and cost $25,000 dollars to repair.

I saw a Valiant 32 in the harbour yesterday. She had a ridiculously wide bulwark, with 27 inch high plastic coated trip wires for lifelines. The stanchions were several inches inboard of the bulwark, leaving about 9 inches of side deck to get forward on, with chain plates in the side deck, to make it an even more dangerous toe buster of a deck. With the boat heeled 25 degrees, the top of the lifelines would be well inboard of the deck edge, making it a limbo contest to get forward in a hurry.
The huge ,boxy cabin crowding out any useful side deck width, looked like something designed by ten year old tree fort designers. This boat was obviously designed by someone with almost zero long term cruising experience, someone with marina queen priorities. No serious offshore long term cruiser would design such an abortion .


----------



## smackdaddy

Do any of your "friends" know how to read a chart? I think it was either Descartes or Spicoli who said, "A helmet on an idiot doesn't make for a smarter idiot."

I don't think there's any question that your boats are probably among the best out there for people who want to continually hit hard stuff at hull speed. But there's little doubt that "no serious offshore long term cruiser" wants to be that stupid. Having even a little bit of navigational knowledge would at least save these people the haul-out fees. So I'm not real sure what you're saying about your friends/customers here*.

BTW - my Hunter is fine.

(*You really should stop making your "friends" look so bad. All you ever do is focus on their embarrassing mistakes to make yourself look better. Why not celebrate _their_ accomplishments a little? That's what friends do.)


----------



## blt2ski

Smack, 

Did someone really say something in this thread? thought so, time to ignore the BS around here.......or is that BS! or some such thing.

Marty


----------



## oysterman23

Is this where we discuss the relative merits of local sailmaking for our ultralight submarines? Oh! And how to achieve neutral buoyancy while holding our neh new tech anchors with all chain rode?


----------



## SloopJonB

I still think the "Russian tank school of yacht design" is the best post in this thread.


----------



## mr_f

Brent Swain said:


> ... looked like something designed by ten year old tree fort designers.


I don't know how to interpret this. Do you mean this as a compliment or an insult?

On the one hand, I have known a number of 10 year old tree fort designers that do excellent work. They keep costs to a minimum so they can "get out there", and often can get the basic structure built in far less time than traditional construction methods.

On the other hand, most of them know very little about material strength, or structure stability, or many of the engineering aspects that are required for a good, safe, functional design. When asked about perceived shortcomings of their tree forts, they often just repeat stories about their friend's forts, and eventually just start insulting the people around them.


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## bobperry

One of the differences is that I can post examples of my design work while BS has zero to show. Have you seen his design work"? It is grim at best. And for the record, more V32's were built and sold than all BS designs combined. They are quite sought after as used boats. They are very tough little boats with an attractively proportioned cabin trunk compared to the crude, squarish shape on the BS boats.


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## christian.hess

back when I was a kid, there was a fellow cruiser at the dock at my club,on a valiant 32, I was on my measly 26 footer and anytime he saw me he would invite me onto his boat, it was so massive, so big, so salty and strong looking.

he gave me my first charts among other things, and most importantly was a yes man instead of the 99 percent naysayer crowd.

thanks to him and other yes men I went cruising while very young...

memories...jajaja

PS. that design bob has a very cal40 ish tune to it, an updated version if you will...

I love it!


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## Jaramaz

bobperry said:


> One of the differences is that I can post examples of my design work while BS has zero to show. Have you seen his design work"? It is grim at best. And for the record, more V32's were built and sold than all BS designs combined. They are quite sought after as used boats. They are very tough little boats with an attractively proportioned cabin trunk compared to the crude, squarish shape on the BS boats.


Everybody knows this, even BS. That is why he is _trying _to challenge.

All the pictures we have seen here on SN of BS boats they have been plain ugly. This is as BS is not interested in beuty. He is looking for other values, as cheap, crash-proof (not that his boats in the end fullfill even these requirements ...).

One can just feel sorry for those going for his boats.

/J


----------



## bobperry

Jaramaz:
BS may not be looking for beauty but if he is then he has not found it yet. I don't think he is capable of producing a beautiful boat. He simple does not have the design skill. I find a few of his boats to look OK just on the crude side for my taste. I don't have much problem with his boats. I have a problem with the stupid claims BS makes and his continuing problem with the basic, technical elements of yacht design. He's a defensive fool. His boats are fine. If you like that kind of boat.


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## djodenda

Happy 4th of July to you all! 

And happy birthday to my 83-year old father, who successfully circumnavigated in a plastic boat without being killed!


----------



## bobperry

Happy birthday to your father Denda, a man of steel who dared circumnavigate in a plastic boat!


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## christian.hess

djodenda said:


> Happy 4th of July to you all!
> 
> And happy birthday to my 83-year old father, who successfully circumnavigated in a plastic boat without being killed!


well congrats on that! jajaja


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## outbound

Happy 4th to all (BS you're excluded given you're not from the U.S. and you have made various unwarranted derogatory comments about the country we love).


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## SloopJonB

Happy birthday indeed to the USA - this is one of the most significant dates in human history AFAIAC. Few, if any other single days have had as much impact on the course of human society as the 4th


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## djodenda

And happy belated Canada Day to all our friends from the North (Unless you are in Detroit and you are referring to Windsor, Ontario, which is actually South)

(I guess that I now live in the PNW, I should use the similar example of Point Roberts and Victoria)

One of my very earliest memories are of us 4 kids and my parents taking the Shark down to the Detroit river to watch the fireworks..


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## blt2ski

Happy 4th

ANybody know where or how I should put the holes in the bow of the boat at slip e10 in Edmonds? will be doing that along with some work on my boat.....altho it might be E8........


Marty


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## djodenda

That's not my boat, Marty


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## blt2ski

ohhh, dang it, I thunk it were......looks way faster than yours come to think of it........

Maybe I'll do this operation in september. yeah, thats it!

up the mast I or richard goes to fix some masthead sheaves, etc...

Marty


----------



## Brent Swain

There is a great article in this month's Sail magazine ( July 2014) on Winston's daughter, Kim, cruising Mexico in her brentboat ,the 4th brentboat in the family. It points out how her decision to go by brentboat is based on a huge amount of family cruising experience, exponentially more full time cruising experience than Bob( alias Smackdaddy) has ever come even remotely close to having. Bobsmack has simply not enough practical hands on experience to be capable of designing practicality and function into a boat. So he only designs appearance as that is all he is capable of understanding with so little ( ZERO) long term cruising experince. 

There is another great article in the July 2014 issue of Pacific Yachting about a Beneteau experience , on a voyage from New Zealand to Tahiti, in which the boat starts breaking up, the hull starts separating from the deck, a common experience in plastic boats, something which never happens on small steel sailboats. All the hatches leak, as do the new ports. The boat naturally starts taking on more water than the pumps can keep up with, so he is forced to abandon her, a boat which he concludes has little value, and is not worth saving. Had he had a steel boat , with proper hatches and ports ( half inch plexi bolted on with a 1 1/2 inch overlap, doesn't leak or break) his structural and leak problems would have not happened. Having a fabricating shop weld up aluminium hatches gets you a much safer hatch than anything the ship swindlers are selling. 

Paul, on Opus , who has been cruising his 36 ft brentboat around the South Pacific since the 90's has seen a lot of boats go on the reefs. He said, on the origamiboats site, that a Hunter is so badly built, that they actually make a Benteau look good, by comparison.


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## SloopJonB

You have made your one & only point ad nauseum Brent - give it a rest.


----------



## NCC320

Brent Swain said:


> Bobsmack has simply not enough practical hands on experience to be capable of designing practicality and function into a boat. So he only designs appearance as that is all he is capable of understanding with so little ( ZERO) long term cruising experince.


Brent, why do you continually make statements like the above? You have one way of designing boats based on ideas that you think important. Bob designs boats based on ideas that he thinks important, which are quite different from your ideas. Maybe Bob doesn't have the cruising experience that you have, but while you were cruising, he was gaining experience about boats and design techniques that you don't have in other ways. So who has the better ideas on materials, design, functionality, etc.? Well, the rest of us in the boating community, who are not designers or builders, vote on this every time we purchase a boat. There are many reasons why each of us votes the way he does, but collectively, the boating community prefers boats of the type that Bob designs by a tremendous margin, and while some people do prefer Brent boats, they are a small minority. That is reality. And most of those boats are fiberglass, and a good many are objects of beauty. Maybe, if you didn't throw out insults like above, maybe, people would be a bit kinder towards you...not that they would ever agree with your idea that your ideas are superior to others.


----------



## bobperry

BS is getting even more desperate. His only comeback is personal insults. He is a silly person. This will not stop so I have become immune to it. He has nothing to add here in terms of discussing yacht design. He needs to stay in the shallow end of the pool. His one note argument is tired and useless in the face of reality.

Just spent a fun day and evening with my family and my Chinese exchange student. He had fun with the big box of fireworks I provided. "Made in China"! Max taught him how to paddleboard today. Fireworks are still going strong here at the shack but Cruz is off to bed and I'm not going to be far behind. I'm knackered. Jill and the dogs packed it in an hour ago.


----------



## Brent Swain

There are 4 brentboats in my current anchorage , Heriot Bay. Two more just headed north. One is brand new , built by a couple in Alberta with very little sailing experience. With my book and plans and Alex's video they had no problems and are very happy with their boat, which gets a steady stream of compliments, everywhere they go. They did a beautiful job on her. They said lifting her completed , out of their yard ,they used a brand new crane, which put the total weight at 18,300 lbs. They used a laser to check for any flexing movement while moving her. The movement in her hull was zero.
Another 36 I built has just finished a circumnavigation, with a 6 inch OD steel mast ,which they had no inclination to change for aluminium. Another 36 I built is in the Caribean ,finishing a circumnavigation ,again with a steel mast, again with no inclination to switch it to aluminium.

A guy on the dock yesterday pointed out that the only critics of my boats are those who know least about them ,while those who own them , love them

I think one of the things which bother Bobsmack is my pointing out his total lack of experience in long term cruising, long term boat maintenance on any one boat , long term living aboard, and zero experience in building or maintaining a steel boat, while giving advice on all the above , at $150 an hour.


----------



## smackdaddy

It's always interesting that none of these swooningly satisfied customers of yours post any of this information on your site. And you can never seem to provide a link to their blog or anything else that backs it up.

The best reviews always come only from you. Does _anyone_ out there really buy all this?


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## christian.hess

guys while arguments may be true both sides,

there are many cruisers that dont BLOG, dont write about what color poop they did, and what their boat smells like in summer and are plenty happy being that way.

so asking for proof of stuff like that is foolish...

best way is by word of mouth out there...ask fellow cruisers what they like and dislike about their boat and that way you really know whats up.

again...chilax peeeps! jajajaja


----------



## MedSailor

Gentlemen, I propose a change to the current rules of the duel.










Bob, you've been pro fiberglass and anti-steel. Brent, you've been pro-steel and anti-fiberglass.

Care to switch sides for a couple posts??

We all know there is no perfect boat, and boats are a series of compromises. Designers should know this better than the rest of us, so Brent should be familiar with the negatives of his boats and his building medium and so should Bob.

Brent, what are the CONS of steel boats, and Brentboats in particular. 
Bob, what are the CONS of fiberglass, and some particular cons for your heavier cruising boats?

MedSailor


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## christian.hess

zing!

im all ears


----------



## smackdaddy

christian.hess said:


> guys while arguments may be true both sides,
> 
> there are many cruisers that dont BLOG, dont write about what color poop they did, and what their boat smells like in summer and are plenty happy being that way.
> 
> so asking for proof of stuff like that is foolish...
> 
> best way is by word of mouth out there...ask fellow cruisers what they like and dislike about their boat and that way you really know whats up.
> 
> again...chilax peeeps! jajajaja


"Word of mouth" is handy. I'll grant you that.


----------



## SloopJonB

MedSailor said:


> Gentlemen, I propose a change to the current rules of the duel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob, you've been pro fiberglass and anti-steel. Brent, you've been pro-steel and anti-fiberglass.
> 
> Care to switch sides for a couple posts??
> 
> We all know there is no perfect boat, and boats are a series of compromises. Designers should know this better than the rest of us, so Brent should be familiar with the negatives of his boats and his building medium and so should Bob.
> 
> Brent, what are the CONS of steel boats, and Brentboats in particular.
> Bob, what are the CONS of fiberglass, and some particular cons for your heavier cruising boats?
> 
> MedSailor


The Maestro has never been "anti-steel", he has designed some steel boats.

He is anti "cheap, ugly" boats and pro "beautiful" boats.

It costs no more to build a beautiful boat than an ugly one, it just takes some taste & style. There are plenty of very good looking, inexpensive boats out there, especially working boats. This has been pointed out numerous times.


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## bobperry

JonB said it quite well.
I will say it again: I have nothing in common with BS, either personally or professionally.
Zero, Zich, Nada, Mayola.

All he has left is personal attacks so I'll let him have at it. My response will simply be to post examples of my work that show my skill. This is something that BS can never match and words won't change.
He has words and that's it.

Four of his boats in the harbor. Well, we know he's a liar. Next month I'll have around fifty of my designs in Port Ludlow for the Perry Rendezvous and I'll have lots of photos to prove it. Now that is something I think is worth noting. Four Not so much.

No matter how much lipstick you smear on it, BS is always BS.

Now for some lovely, fast and effective eye candy.



I can do this all night.


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## bobperry

I get satisfaction seeing my boats do what they were designed to do, doing it very well and doing it with style and grace. I can credit 95% of all my deck design skills to C&C. Initially I learned deck design mostly through my own mistakes but then I sat down one day and studied the design of the old C&C 39 deck. All I needed to know was right there.

Here's my steel 51'er DIVA. It cruised the Pacific for two years with a family crew and is a marvelous boat.

Here is the great AIRLOOm with a stern festooned by duck decals earned by winning the Duck Dodge. Who says double enders can,t be fast.

Of course I can't forget FRANCIS. Kim might have something to say about the value of my design work at whatever rate I choose to charge. He hasn't complained. On the contrary. In fact Kim is so happy with his race results that we are in the planning stage of adding two more sheet winches in the cockpit to make the boat work better when fully crewed. As design it was laid out for single handing. But we race with a crew of five or six and some separation between winches would be effective.


----------



## blt2ski

There are 4 of my boats designs in the salish sea. Not sure why at the moment, but 3 are for sale......two have owned there boats longer than I have, ie close to 20+ yrs. I'm at 8, the other is around 8 yrs also. 

I'll take pretty over fugly anyday of the week....

marty


----------



## kimbottles

Having engaged Mr. Perry professionally over the last four years for the Francis Lee project (formerly known as the Sliver project) I can testify that Mr. Perry is worth far more than the very reasonable rate he charges for his services.

I investigated many options before I spent my design money on the Francis Lee project, I hired Mr. Perry based on his track record for designing some of the best cruising vessels in the world and for his record of designing successful racing vessels. Mr. Perry is regarded by most knowledgeable sailors as one of the premier sailboat designers of all time. 

Having spent a year working closely with him on the design phase of my project it is very apparent to me that he is extremely well versed in all aspects of sailboat design. To suggest that he is lacking in his ability to design a beautiful wholesome seaworthy fast vessel is just laughable.

Facts and reality speak much more loudly than mere words. I have experienced the facts of Mr. Perry's design skills first hand, and for the record I have raced and cruised inshore and offshore for 50+ years in all kinds of weather on all kinds of vessels made of every kind of boat building material. 

But don't just believe me, go investigate the facts and reality for yourself. You won't find them on an Internet forum, they are out there in real life.

Cheers


----------



## christian.hess

EXACTLY!

so lets stop the back and forth...unless you are just doing it for fun...

people are different have likes and dislikes...what may seem ugly to some is practical and utilitarian to someone else...


----------



## mitiempo

There is nothing bad about Brent's boats for the small number that like them. It is Brent and his attitude that is the issue.


----------



## smackdaddy

^^^Bingo.


----------



## christian.hess

im not trying to be the devils advocate here but there is PLENTY of undue and unnecessary comments to and about brent as well...

I mean how many times can you bash a boat and its designer for not posting specs?

attitude is a huge deal breaker but I think we need to be objective here and stop the whole its only one sides fault.

I get it, but lets be more sensible.

thats all

peace


----------



## smackdaddy

Chicken and egg. Believe it or not, I used to be a pretty strong supporter of Brent on another site. I'm not anymore.


----------



## christian.hess

back to steel

anybody have experience with steel kits?

buy the plans, buy $10k steel, get boat done in 2-3 years and sail off into the sunset? jajajaja


----------



## bobperry




----------



## bobperry

Christian:
That beauty is alu and belongs to a friend of Kim and me. He is a master at welding and shaping metal and has a very good eye for design. He builds airplanes too. He is an impressive craftsman. I posted a series of shots on this boat earlier in this thread.


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## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> Chicken and egg. Believe it or not, I used to be a pretty strong supporter of Brent on another site. I'm not anymore.


I find the origami process very intriguing and I can't argue with steel for it's strength & watertightness for long term cruising.

BUT....

Brent is just too fanatical and one tracked for me - regarding Francis Lee as somehow inferior to one of his boats because it isn't a trans-oceanic cruiser 

AND....

As has been pointed out numerous times, there is no reason for a tough & economical boat to look bad or cheap - that is simply a lack of design esthetic, unrelated to the material or money spent. Simply put, there is no excuse for it.


----------



## bobperry

Jon:
If you don't think that FRANCIS could be a "trans-oceanic Cruiser" I would really like to know exactly, in detail, why you think that. Be very specific. I'll wait.

And while I am waiting I will read again about the myriad of boat types that have circumnavigated successfully.

Sometimes I wonder if we have not been brain washed into thinking only one type works for offshore cruising. Each type has it's limitations and advantages. But does that totally eliminate one type? I'm asking. I don't have the answer although I'm inclined to think that you can cruise offshore in just about any sound boat if you are a good sailor. Some very odd boats have made some successful circumnavigations, including the Baba 30.


----------



## SloopJonB

Maybe it could, but that's not the point - it was designed (so I understand) primarily to be a singlehanded daysailer, not a long term cruiser.

People have sailed all sorts of unlikely things across oceans, that's not to say that was their original design intent or that they are particularly appropriate for it.


----------



## MedSailor

Bob, what traits does FL have that would make her a good trans oceanic cruiser?


----------



## Classic30

MedSailor said:


> Bob, what traits does FL have that would make her a good trans oceanic cruiser?


Let me guess: Speed.. and speed.. wait a sec, I said that already! 

At some point in history there was a submarine named FRANCIS LEE, wasn't there?!?


----------



## mitiempo

MedSailor said:


> Bob, what traits does FL have that would make her a good trans oceanic cruiser?


Other than a lack of lifelines  what is against Francis Lee as a trans oceanic cruiser?


----------



## kimbottles

The Francis Lee could easily cross oceans, she is engineered to be very strong and stiff. You might want to wear a harness while on deck, otherwise there is no reason she can't cross any ocean.

But she was not intended for anything other than daysailing and Salish Sea cruising. (However she does seem to do quite well while racing.)


----------



## bobperry

I think Miti has it. Lifelines and pulpits would be nice but not required. Did SPRAY have lifelines? I sure as hell would want them myself. I think the biggest negative to FRANCIS being a good long range cruising boat is the 10' draft. But I could reduce this easily to 8' without giving up too much performance. I know 8' works because ICON cruise the South Pacific very nicely drawing 8.3' with the keel retracted and 13.8' with the keel down.

It's a good conversation and fun to consider. I don't have any hard answers.
The Victoria BC TILLICUM is probably the closest "offshore cruising boat" I can think of to the general proportions of FRANCIS. That worked.

The more I think about it the more I like the idea of FRANCIS the offshore cruising boat. Why not?


----------



## kimbottles

Fast, weatherly, easy to sail, nice motion, well mannered, strongly built, tons of stability, what's not to like?

(OK, the draft would restrict you from some anchorages.)


----------



## Hudsonian

Storage, tankage, and the ability to crush rocks and punch holes in shipping containers, trawlers, etc. Additionally you can't easily set up a forge on the deck or weld a vice to it.


----------



## MedSailor

Spray didn't have lifelines but you choose an interesting example Bob since captain Slocum was lost at sea as was the Spray.


----------



## bobperry

We could easily double the tankage on FRANCIS. There is lots of vacant volume in the boat. We don't need to weld a vice to the deck. There is not much need for welding on Frankie.

I chose SPRAY because when I consider what Slocum did and the I look at the boat I marvel that he made it that long.

My intent was never to propose FRANCIS as an offshore cruising boat I just didn't like seeing it having limitations imposed so cavalierly. In the right hands and with some minor mods I think FRANCIS could do just about anything on the water. But I'm dreaming again. For now we will enjoy the boat as it was intended to be used from the start. The boat is a lot of fun to sail.


----------



## kimbottles

MedSailor said:


> Spray didn't have lifelines but you choose an interesting example Bob since captain Slocum was lost at sea as was the Spray.


At the time it was speculated that he was likely run down by a steamer while asleep. Lack of lifelines likely had nothing to do with his demise.

Also he was along in age when it happened so he might have just died of old age in his sleep and the Spray simply sailed on until she was swamped or rotted away.


----------



## Classic30

bobperry said:


> We could easily double the tankage on FRANCIS. There is lots of vacant volume in the boat. We don't need to weld a vice to the deck. There is not much need for welding on Frankie.
> 
> I chose SPRAY because when I consider what Slocum did and the I look at the boat I marvel that he made it that long.
> 
> My intent was never to propose FRANCIS as an offshore cruising boat I just didn't like seeing it having limitations imposed so cavalierly. In the right hands and with some minor mods I think FRANCIS could do just about anything on the water. But I'm dreaming again. For now we will enjoy the boat as it was intended to be used from the start. The boat is a lot of fun to sail.


Bob/Kim, with not a great deal of freeboard and a long slim profile, I'm guessing FL slices through waves rather than bouncing over them.. Wouldn't she ship a lot of water over the deck out there in the Pacific??

(Hence my allusion to a submarine a few posts back... )


----------



## kimbottles

Francis Lee is about the same beam and 10' LOA and 15' LWL longer than my Swede55. She weights just a tad more at 19,000#s.

The Swede55 tended to lift over the waves much more than plunge through them and that has been my limited experience with Francis Lee on Puget Sound. And this was in the normal short chop square waves of Puget Sound.

(I suspect how fast/hard you were to sail her would also contribute to how she handled waves.)

The waves in the Pacific have tended to be of a much longer period than on the Sound (at least in my experience) so I doubt she would be much of a submarine if sailed in a seaman like manner out in the ocean.

Nothing I have seen so far in her manners would keep me from sailing her in the open ocean. She is (as I have said before) very well mannered.

My lovely wife of 46 years does not like drama while sailing and so far she is delighted with the Francis Lee's calm comfortable manners.


----------



## Classic30

Interesting... thanks, Kim


----------



## blt2ski

To my eye and mind, not that my mind is of any shape or form......

We need to look at from a design standpoint, and it may have been brought up many pages and posts back, as to the intent of the end user of a given boat. It may be strong enough, as pointed out re Frankie, my 28' on deck Jeanneau designed to a post fastnet ior half ton rating is also capable of going offshore etc. The question becomes, like my boat, is 20 gals of water, 7 gals of fuel enough to truly cross an ocean etc.

I know of a 74' motor cat that left Port Angelas after getting built here, now in or somewhere between PA and Panama where it will be a passenger ferry. THe 200 gals of fuel is fine for the intended usage, but the builder had to put another 200-400 in 50 gal drums to make it down the Wa to California coast to San Fransisco which is its first stop, filling the tank as it goes....not something I would find to fun.......but it will get to the final destination at some point in time.

I'm sure in the case of all three boats I have mentioned, ALL could cross an ocean per say just fine, with some appropriate mods. In the meantime, I am positive all the end users are happy with there boats.

marty


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## christian.hess

the way I see it is you dont mod the boat, you mod your sailing style

refitting is fine, but sail the boat you have at its best intended way, and suit your sailing skills to the boat

all too often you see boats that arent designed for a certain type of sailing completely destroyed and modded only to anger the owner after realizing his "redesign" didnt pan out like he wanted to

Im not saying a racing machine cannot be modded to cruise, what Im saying is dont make a motorsailor into a volvo ocean boat, and dont make a laser a cruiser...

when I see people complain or emphasize tankage especially fuel, and in many cases water as characteristics of an offshore or cruiser capable boat it irks me a bit...

you adapt to your boat, unless huge deficiencies or design errors are noted...

take note of design parameters, construction, strength, redundancy etc...

just sayin


----------



## djodenda

kimbottles said:


> Francis Lee is about the same beam and 10' LOA and 15' LWL longer than my Swede55. She weights just a tad more at 19,000#s.
> 
> The Swede55 tended to lift over the waves much more than plunge through them and that has been my limited experience with Francis Lee on Puget Sound. And this was in the normal short chop square waves of Puget Sound.
> 
> (I suspect how fast/hard you were to sail her would also contribute to how she handled waves.)
> 
> The waves in the Pacific have tended to be of a much longer period than on the Sound (at least in my experience) so I doubt she would be much of a submarine if sailed in a seaman like manner out in the ocean.
> 
> Nothing I have seen so far in her manners would keep me from sailing her in the open ocean. She is (as I have said before) very well mannered.
> 
> My lovely wife of 46 years does not like drama while sailing and so far she is delighted with the Francis Lee's calm comfortable manners.


I'm curious how she will perform in the large rips we get here (Pt. Hudson, Cattle Pass on a big ebb, etc)....


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## kimbottles

djodenda said:


> I'm curious how she will perform in the large rips we get here (Pt. Hudson, Cattle Pass on a big ebb, etc)....


So far the couple rips she has gone through didn't seem to bother her at all either under sail or under power.

I think the narrow beam works well for her under just about all circumstances.

I have had to power her home directly upwind in 20-25Knots after some of the Thursday races and she punches right through the short steep square shaped chop with very little loss of speed.

So far I am very, very happy with the way this vessel has turned out. She has greatly exceeded my expectations and hopes.


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## bobperry

When I designed FRANCIS I had in mind a nice, all round, good mannered vessel that would perform well in all conditions. If I had thought that in our typical tide rip/chop there would have been some behavioral anomaly I would have changed the design.

Simple as that.
If you are sitting there wringing your hands waiting for FRANCIS to show "the dark side" I'm afraid you are going to be in for a long wait.

This is far from my first design.


----------



## goat

Time for a compromise.










You're welcome.

goat


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## djodenda

bobperry said:


> If you are sitting there wringing your hands waiting for FRANCIS to show "the dark side" I'm afraid you are going to be in for a long wait.


No hand-wringing here, Bob.. I was thinking her long waterline and narrow beam would be pretty useful in that case..

I was thinking she's long enough that she'd be sitting on top of a couple of those nasty square waves at the same time...

I remember something you said a while back about the ideal waterline for the Salish Sea...


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## Jeff_H

I think that Christian Hess's post# 4991 rightly gets to the heart of a bigger matter, namely the whole nebulous issue of defining what is an ocean going vessel, distance cruiser- and/or cruiser for that matter. It seems like so many of these discussions come down to individuals very narrow definitions of cruising, and therefore the 'necessities' that a cruising boat should include. And when an individual decides that his definition of curising is the only right definition, then any boat which does not meet that definition isn't a good cruising boat.

But in reality, we all define how we intend to use our boats, where we intend to sail, what we are comfortable with, the risks we are willing to take, the budget we can spend, and the benefits we demand. And it is within that collection of factors that the definition emerges and that a boat is suitable for its owner and that owner's useage. 

And while there are a long list of boats that for any one of us would be very poor choice for our needs, tastes, and ambitions, many of these boats may be a perfect fit for some other person who ideally is the fellow who owns her. 

So when I look at Frankie, I see a design which is precisely designed around that owner's needs, tastes, and ambitions and which seems to be precisely what the doctor ordered for that owner. 

When the discussion shifted to whether FRANCIS could be a "trans-oceanic Cruiser", I would have to ask for whom. I would think that she could make a great trans-oceanic cruiser for someone whose primary interest was in the passage rather than grand accommodations once in port. Frankly, FRANCIS would be a far superior trans-oceanic Cruiser than the list of 50 year old Alberg-Tripp-Luders-Rhodes-S&S designs that seem to get dredged up everytime someone posts about going distance cruising. Certainly she should be a lot more seaworthy, seakindly, and faster, with more carrying capacity. She may actually be easier to handle in a broad range of conditions. People making long passages have chosen to eschew lifelines for all kinds of reasons. I believe that Pardeys did without lifelines for many years, as have many of the truly traditional and historic cruising boats that I have encountered in my life. 

And for every owner who thinks his boat is perfect, and for every doubting critic, there is bound to be a major chasm formed by the way they see their own one true set of requirements and the way that others see their own one true light. 

I saw this phenomina when I bought my own boat. When I bought my boat, my long term plan was to sail her for a decade or so on the Chesapeake and US east coast. Eventually I wanted to sail her to Europe and spend some years poking around the edges of the continent. I spoke to a collection of sister ship owners, quite a few had done major short-handed ocean passages and cruised long distance on sisterships. They descibed her as a bit spartan, not built for tall folks, and quite seaworthy and fast. They made a point that you have to be disciplined about not loading the boat up with a bunch of 'useless stuff', but that she had plenty of capacity to carry what was needed to feed, house and repair the boat and crew. 

At the time that I bought the old girl, there was a lot of criticism of my choice. At one point, I read through the criticism and thought that they were right that Synergy's design could not do all the things these folks thought a cruising boat needed to do, but I only needed a cruising boat, which did the things that I wanted her to do, and she appeared to do those things very well. 

It is the same for FRANCIS, she appears to do everything that Kim wanted her to do and more. If someone else chose her to make ocean passage, assuming that person was knowledgeable, they would size her up and say, she may not do everything that someone else thinks they they need, but she does precisely what I need. And if that person concluded that modifications were necessary, within reason the compromises and cost to make those modifications would make sense to that person even if they do not make sense to us, and might not have made sense to Kim or Bob when FRANCIS was conceived and constructed. 

In other words, any problem with FRANCIS as an ocean cruiser comes from the mind of the person defining that problem from thier own point of view, rather than from inherent issues with FRANCIS herself. 

Jeff


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## kimbottles

Well said Jeff.


----------



## blt2ski

Jeff said it better than my attempt a few posts back.

marty


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## tommays

Messy fugly metal work makes my head explode, i am about to use a different steam fitter at work or start doing it myself again because he does the pipe runs in a way that so lacks any feng shui it looks like hell and is confusing to use and i get  every-time i look at it


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## bobperry

One time while racing FRANCIS on the first leg in a tight group we were hit by a large freighter wake. At the time we were calmly making our way through the fleet of 35 to 40' boats. When the wake hit the adjacent boats all started dancing and hobbyhorsing while FRANCIS remained relatively steady and we shot ahead. The other boats were almost stopped dead. With the volume spread out over such a relatively long LOA with the subsequent lack of rocker FRANCIS does not want to hobbyhorse at all.

Denda:
That ideal WL for Puget Sound was an Ed Monk Sr. idea and as I recall it was either 32' or 34'. But if you consider that FRANCIS is pretty much all DWL then it is very close to double that number. Is there magic in those numbers? I don't know. I doubt it. But old Ed Monk was a smart guy and it's worth considering. I try to consider everything.


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## djodenda

If there is a magic number.... It would seem to make sense that even multiples of that number would work even better..

Be interesting to find out.

Who wants to build a bigger boat and see?


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## Brent Swain

Vancouver marine surveyor Paul Dupre,once bought a horrendously poorly built, severely warped, and abysmally welded boat called "Waskazoo ".He bought her cheap for all the great gear she had on her. Then he tried to break her up with a backhoe, to send her to the scrap yard. 8 hours of whacking her with the back hoe was unable to punch a single hole in her. She was only 1/8th inch plate, with some of the worst welding you could imagine.Had she been plastic, she would have broken up with the first few whacks.
He had to cut her up with the torch.
They found the missing Beneteu, upside down in the Atlantic, with her keel missing and her ports all broken, something which is becoming common on plastic boats, but which simply does not happen with properly built steel boats. Small , half inch plexi ports, bolted on with a 1 1/2 inch overlap simply don't break. Commercially made opening ports, using 1/16th inch hinge pins in about as much Lexan with super thin lenses, often break.
My first boat ,designed to Nevins and Hereschoffs rules called for under 4 sq inches cross section of stainless bolts to hold a 4500 lb keel on. My 36 has 40 feet of 3/16th plate holding the keel on, with a tensile strength of 5.4 million pounds, and a cross section of 90 sq inches.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Then he tried to break her up with a backhoe, to send her to the scrap yard. 8 hours of whacking her with the back hoe was unable to punch a single hole in her.


I love these friends of yours who spend 8 hours doing the same thing over and over with no results.

Next time a backhoe is coming toward me in the ocean I'll be extremely nervous.


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## Dean101

Brent Swain said:


> Vancouver marine surveyor Paul Dupre,once bought a horrendously poorly built, severely warped, and abysmally welded boat called "Waskazoo ".He bought her cheap for all the great gear she had on her. Then he tried to break her up with a backhoe, to send her to the scrap yard. 8 hours of whacking her with the back hoe was unable to punch a single hole in her. She was only 1/8th inch plate, with some of the worst welding you could imagine.Had she been plastic, she would have broken up with the first few whacks.
> He had to cut her up with the torch.
> They found the missing Beneteu, upside down in the Atlantic, with her keel missing and her ports all broken, something which is becoming common on plastic boats, but which simply does not happen with properly built steel boats. Small , half inch plexi ports, bolted on with a 1 1/2 inch overlap simply don't break. Commercially made opening ports, using 1/16th inch hinge pins in about as much Lexan with super thin lenses, often break.
> My first boat ,designed to Nevins and Hereschoffs rules called for under 4 sq inches cross section of stainless bolts to hold a 4500 lb keel on. My 36 has 40 feet of 3/16th plate holding the keel on, with a tensile strength of 5.4 million pounds, and a cross section of 90 sq inches.


Perhaps your friend should stick to surveying. A torch made for cutting steel would have been a first choice tool for cutting up a steel object rather than a backhoe, which is primarily used for digging. Using both would have completed the job pronto! And spending 8 hours on it? I find it hard to believe that ANYBODY would be so foolish. I'm assuming this guy either had one of those little Tonka toy backhoes or had no idea how to operate one. A full sized construction backhoe would have no problem piercing 1/8" plate and if the welds were as bad as you say, a good operator could have probably ripped it apart.

The main thing I want to ask you though is to specify what commercial ports use 1/16" hinge pins? The plastic Beckson ports in my old boat had factory installed 3/16" stainless bolts for hinge pins and I would certainly not consider those ports to be robust. I'm no expert but I would guess that the hinge pins were the strongest part of the entire port assembly.


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## bobperry

I like the Lewmar Atlantic portlight and it uses 3/16" dia. ( probably 4.75 mm) pins. I have never even seen a portlight with 1/16" dia. hinge pins. Somebody is making things up again. If it involves a number I'd be suspect of anything BS has to say.


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## Dean101

bobperry said:


> I like the Lewmar Atlantic portlight and it uses 3/16" dia. pins. I have never even seen a portligt with 1/16" dia. hinge pins. Somebody is making things up again.


I agree with you Bob. Flights of fancy, as they say?


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## AlaskaMC

Not sure if this has been posted but it came up in my recent searches.

1995 Brent Swain Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com









Seems we have a cost/ROI issue here. 3 years and it has lost almost 2/3 of the initial cost to build. Ouch. Something also tells me that work hours into the project isn't calculated into that 70k cost. Nice interior from the pics. Hard to tell about the the hull/rig/etc since there are not many pics. But it does look like a work boat. In fact, compared to most work boats I see it is pretty rough but the price reflects that.

Still, don't want a sub 40 steel boat. 18000/5600# is getting kinda thin on the ballast side too isn't it? Oh, and aren't those regular ole lifelines?


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## bobperry

Nice Passport 43 for sale there for $274,000.


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## christian.hess

there is NO return on investemnt on a boat made by *you *and sold 10 years later...

anybody expecting that needs a slap to the face

doesnt matter what material


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## christian.hess

AlaskaMC said:


> Not sure if this has been posted but it came up in my recent searches.
> 
> 1995 Brent Swain Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems we have a cost/ROI issue here. 3 years and it has lost almost 2/3 of the initial cost to build. Ouch. Something also tells me that work hours into the project isn't calculated into that 70k cost. Nice interior from the pics. Hard to tell about the the hull/rig/etc since there are not many pics. But it does look like a work boat. In fact, compared to most work boats I see it is pretty rough but the price reflects that.
> 
> Still, don't want a sub 40 steel boat. 18000/5600# is getting kinda thin on the ballast side too isn't it? Oh, and aren't those regular ole lifelines?


there is one down in mexico a 36 I beleive that is in decent shape and priced accordingly for what its worth


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## AlaskaMC

bobperry said:


> Nice Passport 43 for sale there for $274,000.


But Bob, what do I do when the inevitable back hoe takes a shot at my family while coming over the Gulf? Seems if I had a BS it would take 8 hours to sink me and by then I might have sailed away. I mean not too far of course, it's a slow steel boat, but the back hoe doesn't have reach and in 8 hours I would be at least 1 NM away. 

Seriously though, love the Passports. Found one getting close to our budget. We know some folks that have one in Tahiti right now. THEY LOVE IT!!!


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## Dean101

AlaskaMC said:


> But Bob, what do I do when the inevitable back hoe takes a shot at my family while coming over the Gulf? Seems if I had a BS it would take 8 hours to sink me and by then I might have sailed away. I mean not too far of course, it's a slow steel boat, but the back hoe doesn't have reach and in 8 hours I would be at least 1 NM away.
> 
> Seriously though, love the Passports. Found one getting close to our budget. We know some folks that have one in Tahiti right now. THEY LOVE IT!!!


To adapt an old saying to your situation: You don't have to sail faster than the backhoe. You just have to sail faster than a Swain.:laugher


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## AlaskaMC

christian.hess said:


> there is one down in mexico a 36 I beleive that is in decent shape and priced accordingly for what its worth


I have seen that one. La Paz I believe. We are heading down there to spend 10 days on a Cal 34 and were planning on looking at boats while there.

Hang on a sec... .... ....

Here we go.









Guaymas, not La Paz. Well we won't get to see it while there. I may go see the one in Seattle just to get an idea in person. I mean after all this thread has been going on forever and to really see one in person would be interesting.


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## christian.hess

yeah thats the one....


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## Brent Swain

Funny how the more high tech boats get, the more their keels keep falling off. That rarely happened back when they relied on past experience and common sense.
There is a discussion elsewhere on this site where a Hunter couldn't make it out f Juan de Fuca without her rudder breaking off.
A couple of clients said they had racing skippers aboard, who couldn't believe the speed their brentboats were making on their GPS units. They said such a heavy boat was just not supposed to sail that fast.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Funny how the more high tech boats get, the more their keels keep falling off. That rarely happened back when they relied on past experience and common sense.
> There is a discussion elsewhere on this site where a Hunter couldn't make it out f Juan de Fuca without her rudder breaking off.
> A couple of clients said they had racing skippers aboard, who couldn't believe the speed their brentboats were making on their GPS units. They said such a heavy boat was just not supposed to sail that fast.


Batman was sailing with me the other day. He said he couldn't believe how tough and fast 1989 Hunter 40s are. He said such a light boat is supposed to get attacked by backhoes (the new Kraken) and sink because it has tiny little hatch pins that don't really exist. I told him to stop being a moron and grab me a beer. He happened to have one in his utility belt. I was impressed.


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## JonEisberg

bobperry said:


> I like the Lewmar Atlantic portlight and it uses 3/16" dia. ( probably 4.75 mm) pins. I have never even seen a portlight with 1/16" dia. hinge pins. Somebody is making things up again. If it involves a number I'd be suspect of anything BS has to say.


Brent can definitely get pretty creative with numbers...

One of my favorites was his claim that FOUR of his close friends have been lost due to the failure of conventional lifelines...


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## goat

JonEisberg said:


> Brent can definitely get pretty creative with numbers...
> 
> One of my favorites was his claim that FOUR of his close friends have been lost due to the failure of conventional lifelines...


Maybe they had their GPS antennae attached to their lifelines?


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## Dirtyfloats

Maybe, poking fun at lives lost at sea isn't the most tasteful thing to do...

Also, i have seen ripped apart a plastic boat with a 1 ton pickup, and 30 feet of chain. We called it the truck saw, and the heavily built 1960 glass, didn't even try to put up a fight...

Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


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## smackdaddy

Dirtyfloats said:


> Also, i have seen ripped apart a plastic boat with a 1 ton pickup, and 30 feet of chain. We called it the truck saw, and the heavily built 1960 glass, didn't even try to put up a fight...


Dirty - you need to understand that no one here is claiming that "plastic boats" can withstand backhoes, trucksaws, or chainsaws.

The point here is that no sailboat out there is designed to withstand these things - or to survive continually pounding on rocks and reefs. That's _not the point_ of any sailboat on earth. The point of a sailboat is to _sail in water_ - under the guidance of a skipper with at least enough navigational skill to be able to avoid rocks and reefs.

The exception to this rule is obviously Brent. To Brent, the primary design function of a sailboat is to hit rocks, sit on reefs for weeks, and stand-up to backhoes. And, actually, they're very well suited to that. That's just not the kind of sailing very many people do. So these kinds of examples are silly.


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## christian.hess

wait a minute there *are *boats that survive reef hits for days and days on end only to be pulled off and sail off into the sunset...

in all those cases those boats were steel...(edited to say this is a stretch of the truth, jajaja)

this is in no way a total agreement with brents assertions its a testament to those particular boats, designs and builders...


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## Dirtyfloats

And trucks and cara are designed to drive on the road. However safety and.security are designed into them because no matter how good a driver someone is, accidents will always happen. Which is why people often prefer heavily built vehicles over sporty, fast , luxurious ones.

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## Jaramaz

Dirtyfloats said:


> And trucks and cara are designed to drive on the road. However safety and.security are designed into them because no matter how good a driver someone is, accidents will always happen. Which is why people often prefer heavily built vehicles over sporty, fast , luxurious ones.


Traffic on roads and on water cannot be compared, most design requirements are completely different.

Then I really challenge your statement that most prefer heavy built vehicles - in my experience most selects acrs based on capacity, safety (which has been proven is not at all the same as heavy) and so on. 
From the cars I see, most seems to prefer german cars, which all are fast, and somewhat luxurious. (not my taste, but that is another thing).

Maybe, Dirty, you should tell more about who you are?

/J


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## Dirtyfloats

I'm obviously not comparing road traffic to boat traffic. That's ridiculous. I'm just saying accidents are something to consider. 
North of the 50th parallel, the preferred vehicle seems to be larger, and more heavily built.
We have actual nature to contend with...

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## smackdaddy

Dirtyfloats said:


> I'm obviously not comparing road traffic to boat traffic. That's ridiculous. I'm just saying accidents are something to consider.
> North of the 50th parallel, the preferred vehicle seems to be larger, and more heavily built.
> We have actual nature to contend with...
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


That's the bottom line here...preferences based on conditions. And if Brent could let that stand, we wouldn't be having this debate. But he can't. According to his schpiel, Brentboats are the "best" preference for "all" conditions - and plastic boats are deathtraps. And any reasonable person can see that this is ridiculous.

I completely understand the desire to be inside an impenetrable shell if one is always afraid of hitting stuff or being hit (the examples Brent always uses). If that's the way one thinks, it makes perfect sense for that to be the major guiding factor in one's preference of boat (e.g. - "heavy is safe"). This fear of collision becomes the "conditions" one plans to sail in - which informs the choice of boat. And, rocks and reefs notwithstanding, that actually makes some sense in high latitude sailing where ice is an actual threat - or in uncharted or questionably charted waters.

BUT, if you _are not_ planning on hitting a lot of stuff and not running into backhoes with your boat, this impenetrable shell that is heavy and slow and prone to rust, is not really necessary. To put it another way, frequent collisions with rocks and reefs or even running your boat up onto a log boom at hull speed to "anchor it" - are not the "conditions" you sail your boat in. Rather, you seek out the conditions of the warmer, sexier parts of the world where bikinis for the ladies are the choice over elk skins. And you pay attention to your charts. There are hundreds/thousands of plastic boats safely circumnavigating the earth every year that prove this.

Preferences and conditions. I prefer bikinis over backhoes.


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## bobperry

Christian:
"in all those cases those boats were steel..."

That is simply not true. Hell I had one of my FT10m's pound on rocks in Sydney for two days and all the damage was to the keel fin and trunk. The boat is racing again. That is a lightly built racing boat.


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## smurphny

I can certainly see the safety advantage of steel. I've seen enough nasty floating stuff to make that obvious. The other advantage (to me) is that you're not dealing with all the problems that can be encountered and equipment needed in FRP layup, from having moulds to vacuum bagging, to getting the chemical mix and timing of layering right. For a DIY boat builder, welding steel together seems more do-able, much akin to wood boat building. A good welder and a cutting torch and you're in business. If I were going to build a sailboat from scratch, I would definitely consider steel (or aluminum). 

Is the hard chine really an issue. I would think that steel can be fit very similar to wood planking. With some good templates and the right cutting equipment for making long, exact cuts, why would a hard chine be necessary? Brent?


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## smackdaddy

smurphny said:


> If I were going to build a sailboat from scratch, I would definitely consider steel (or aluminum).


For the record, I totally agree with you here. No way would I EVER try to build a fiberglass boat myself. Aluminum would be my choice as well.


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## bobperry

I see no problem at all with well placed and well designed chines. I completely agree that with alu or steel a good welder can do just about everything required in the build process while composite grp requires a variety of skills and processes.

I have never been "anti-steel". I am just anti BS.

I did a beautful double chine steel version of the Tayana 37 for a guy in Alaska The boat was called FINVARA. Unfortunatly the client, an ex pro football player, very big guy, dropped dead while walking down the street. I don't think he was over 40 years old at the time. I lost track of the boat after that.


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## smurphny

smackdaddy said:


> For the record, I totally agree with you here. No way would I EVER try to build a fiberglass boat myself. Aluminum would be my choice as well.


Just posted some pix of the biggest FRP "boat" I ever want to build on the general discussion page


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## christian.hess

bobperry said:


> Christian:
> "in all those cases those boats were steel..."
> 
> That is simply not true. Hell I had one of my FT10m's pound on rocks in Sydney for two days and all the damage was to the keel fin and trunk. The boat is racing again. That is a lightly built racing boat.


fine...that was a stretch...


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## Capt Len

Robust is good but if you stroll thru an auto wreckers the dead Volvos are nearly all head on collisions while other types succumb to tail enders,and roll overs. Could it be that driver attitude has something to do with this.? On another note, I knew a guy who bend up his steel plated vessel by driving a fully laden water tanker back and forth over the pieces in sand to get the compound curves. A labour of love ,eh? I'd do Origami .


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## christian.hess

hard sandcasting? jajajajajajajaja

when I get to my retirement age(lets see about that) I wouldnt mind building myself a steel boat

but by that time they will probably have pop a pill magical kit boats that appear out of thin air and store just as easily

suitcase sailboat or something


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## Dirtyfloats

I would be interested in a discussion about actual boat building, not preferences from people who are not interested in building. Would anyone be into a thread like that? anyone else actively building? or have previously built? or planning to build?

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## smackdaddy

I _rebuilt_ my 17' beach catamaran - doing a lot of FG work and other stuff. That was enough to teach me that there is no way I'd want to commit my life to building _any_ sailboat. I'd much rather sail.


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## christian.hess

Dirtyfloats said:


> I would be interested in a discussion about actual boat building, not preferences from people who are not interested in building. Would anyone be into a thread like that? anyone else actively building? or have previously built? or planning to build?
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


I asked about 20 pages back or so...

not gonna find that here

fwiw I almost bought some plans from dudley dix...back when I had dreams of sailing mini 21s across oceans

he had plans for pogos in wood composite construction

he also has plans in steel

someday I will build a steel or aluminum boat...or something for that matter


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## Dirtyfloats

Maybe i will try starting another thread if anyone is actually interested. 
I know of quite a few steel/alu boats being home built, even a couple wood ones, but not a single fiberglass one. Doesn't seem to appeal to the amateur.

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## bobperry

Dirty:
Over on Sailing Anarchy there is a good cruising thread directed at people who are currently cruising. That thread is doing quite well. I read it but I don't post. I think you might be able to set up a similar thread here focused on building. Don't see why not.

Christian:
I thought maybe you were trying to be funny.

I suppose I could cruise the world but I have found the spot I like the best and so I just have the rest of the world come to me. I have done enough world travelling in my business. Here is a photo of Saturday's dinner at my beach shack.

Five, 15 year old Chinese exchange students learning to eat American sweet corn.
Learning the finer points of croquet.


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## SloopJonB

Jaramaz said:


> Traffic on roads and on water cannot be compared, most design requirements are completely different.
> 
> Then I really challenge your statement that most prefer heavy built vehicles - in my experience most selects acrs based on capacity, safety (which has been proven is not at all the same as heavy) and so on.
> From the cars I see, most seems to prefer german cars, which all are fast, and somewhat luxurious. (not my taste, but that is another thing).
> 
> Maybe, Dirty, you should tell more about who you are?/J


Ironically, the people who choose their vehicles based on their supposed "crash worthiness" nearly always end up with vehicles at the lowest end of crash performance - pickups and other truck based things, none of which meet or are required to meet car standards.

Darwin strikes again.


----------



## SloopJonB

There was an interesting article in the British "Practical Boat Owner" mag a month or so ago. It was about a couple sailing high latitudes (Falklands) who got rolled a couple of times and dismasted so they decided to put steel spars on their steel boat.

The guy had a steel shop roll up sections of two "gutters" of 2MM & 3MM steel and then welded them together with internal cross braces to stiffen it. He also had it welded tight and then pressure tested it to ensure it was sealed to increase its floatation which he claimed was better than an equivalent solid fir mast.

Two things I found interesting but can't confirm - 

He made it a smaller cross section than an equivalent alloy spar and claimed the same strength - would be good for airflow over the main & mizzen.

He claimed the weight of the complete rig, all wired & rigged, was only 15% more than an equivalent alloy rig. I seem to recall that 15% is the savings of an alloy spar over hollow box construction, which if true, would put the steel rig at the same weight as all those GOB's out there with wood spars.

It also cost him $1.5K Vs. the $30K a commercial rig was quoted at (10 years ago). (actually British Pounds, not $).

Can anyone here confirm those numbers (weight comparison & external spar dimensions)?

I always just assumed a steel spar was ludicrous in the extreme but this guy made it sound quite reasonable and practical.


----------



## Jeff_H

Dirtyfloats said:


> I would be interested in a discussion about actual boat building, not preferences from people who are not interested in building. Would anyone be into a thread like that? anyone else actively building? or have previously built? or planning to build?


I think that would be an interesting thread. That said, I am not sure that there are a whole lot of folks who have built boats on this forum.

In the past I have build several wooden boats, or boats that are wood/glass composites, worked in a yard putting a large sailboat together, helped a fellow building a Westsail 32, been part of the 'mud-team' building a ferrocement hulled Ingrid, and restored quite a few wood and glass boats.

I have often thought that I might build a small coastal cruiser with a lift keel when I have gotten too old to push my current boat around and wanted to explore the backwaters of the Chesapeake and Atlantic Coasts. I have usually figured that boat would be glass over wood hull, with a foam core and glass deck. The keel and keel cassette would probably steel with a lead bulb.

Jeff


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## christian.hess

SloopJonB said:


> There was an interesting article in the British "Practical Boat Owner" mag a month or so ago. It was about a couple sailing high latitudes (Falklands) who got rolled a couple of times and dismasted so they decided to put steel spars on their steel boat.
> 
> The guy had a steel shop roll up sections of two "gutters" of 2MM & 3MM steel and then welded them together with internal cross braces to stiffen it. He also had it welded tight and then pressure tested it to ensure it was sealed to increase its floatation which he claimed was better than an equivalent solid fir mast.
> 
> Two things I found interesting but can't confirm -
> 
> He made it a smaller cross section than an equivalent alloy spar and claimed the same strength - would be good for airflow over the main & mizzen.
> 
> He claimed the weight of the complete rig, all wired & rigged, was only 15% more than an equivalent alloy rig. I seem to recall that 15% is the savings of an alloy spar over hollow box construction, which if true, would put the steel rig at the same weight as all those GOB's out there with wood spars.
> 
> It also cost him $1.5K Vs. the $30K a commercial rig was quoted at (10 years ago). (actually British Pounds, not $).
> 
> Can anyone here confirm those numbers (weight comparison & external spar dimensions)?
> 
> I always just assumed a steel spar was ludicrous in the extreme but this guy made it sound quite reasonable and practical.


so why is it these brits can do it, but when suggested by others on here it gets bashed ad nauseum
?
from an outsiders point of view its impossible not to see the extreme unfairness lent to some members here

steel is not that damn heavy, especially when done well.

I too would love to see the details of that mast construction and boat for that matter


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## christian.hess

similar article here:
Build your own steel masts ? How to knock up a mast from a lamp post ? Yacht Mollymawk ? The cruising log of the good ship Mollymawk


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## Capt Len

One of detriments on this thread seems to be a knee jerk bias by devout believers and followers .that transcends potential usefulness of opinions and information. Not uncommon in Belfast,the near East and a certain thread in Off topic. Doesn't have to make sense, apparently just the way things is. I, for one ,would welcome some class in these threads from builders , planners,and realistic doers on the topics of all types of marine construction .Together, we,all of us, have an immense amount of talent and experience and even if you don't actively participate could make this a useful and more interesting read. My 40 very odd years of experience for example includes large and small steel, ferro, fiber glass ,carvel and strip plank wood construction I would enjoy vicariously living others adventures and maybe even interjecting occasionally with my own pertinent and valuable musings.


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## Jeff_H

christian.hess said:


> so why is it these brits can do it, but when suggested by others on here it gets bashed ad nauseum
> ?
> from an outsiders point of view its impossible not to see the extreme unfairness lent to some members here
> 
> steel is not that damn heavy, especially when done well.
> 
> I too would love to see the details of that mast construction and boat for that matter


I don't think its a matter of unfairness, but the practical realities involved. To illustrate this, I put together a quick spreadsheet to do the comparasion between a steel tube and an aluminum tube.

I initially assumed that the exterior dimensions were held constant, and that the wall thikness varied. The controlling calculation turned out to be the Moment of Inertia (I) times the Modulus of Elasticity (E)for the two materials. (When I x E was set equal, aluminum had a much higher bending (S x Fb) and compressive strength.)

With an equal diameter and equal E x I, the steel spar weighs around 13% more than the aluminum spar. (Similar to Jones number) If I remember the last time that I calculated it, on a cruising boat, the standing rigging weights roughly 40-50% of the spar weight, (Bob, please correct me if I rememberthis wrong) and if we assume that the standing rigging weight would be the same on each rig, then in theory the rig with the steel spar would weigh not quite 10% more than the rig with the aluminum spar.

The question then becomes "Is a 10% heavier rig weight an acceptable increase in weight?" That is where it gets a little subjective because some folks would accept the implied mix of reduced stability or less carrying capacity (since you would need more ballast to overcome the rig) and greater roll and pitch angles.

I personally would not accept that compromise, but that is just me and my personal expectations out of a boat.

To demonstarte my hyporcracy, it could be argued that by the same token, a carbon spar vs an aluminum spar would have a greater impact on these factors as compared to the difference between a steel spar and an aluminum spar. I cannot afford a carbon spar, and so chose to accept that compromise, but that is where the subjectivity comes into play, and at some level that is perhaps a similar basis to the case being made for the affordability of a steel spar by steel tube advocates.

But then there are other ways to look at this. If you increase the outside diameter of the aluminum tube as suggested in Jones's quote, then you quickly get to a point where the bending is equal and the stiffness is equal to the steel tube, but the weight is closer to 25% less.

But the last point would be that we tend to look at the conventional ways of doing things as compared to the alternatives. In this case the main point is that aluminum mast extrusions are pretty highly evolved so that they have a much greater stiffness in the axis where the mast needs it. If you compare a properly shaped aluminum spar section with the same stiffness (E x I) to our steel tube in the axis where it is needed, then you end up with a spar section which is roughly 20% lighter than the steel tube and which has a lower frontal area for reduced windage. 20% is significant by almost anybody's thinking.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## christian.hess

I agree completely...obviously the steel spar is going to be much flexier for the same specs or overall strength than an al spar.

my point I guess was say for example many cruisers are willing to take that hit in performance to save a few bucks here and there(those brits also gained some bouyancy like a wood mast offers)

again a compromise...bit its hard to justify a new 30k rig versus 1.5k right?

I mean you could simply cut short your new steel rig a foot or 2 and that would get you to around the same weight aloft "ballpark" and treat your new rig as a stubby heavy weather rig...

right?

go by moitissiers philosphy? jajaja

Im not trying to start anything here as I agree collectively many points can be made good and bad...

back to the original point of this thread wouldnt it be better to simply stop with the back and forth and just post INFO?

if it where me in that boats situation(losing your ketch wooden rig) I think I would of done something similar...however FIRST I would of gone aroundl looking for abandoned rigs in yards and stuff...


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## Capt Len

I'm partial to solid wood for a real gaffer. When I lost Thane's original main mast I whipped up a new one from a quarter sawn billet. Cost about 100 bucks and my labour.Maybe not realistic in Florida but we got trees here. My calculations for about 10 inches by about 45 feet included too strong doesn't break and after 25 years still works for me.


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## christian.hess

you guys are so damned lucky up there

cant you harvest wood in certain areas for free for stuff like boats?


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## Classic30

christian.hess said:


> you guys are so damned lucky up there
> 
> cant you harvest wood in certain areas for free for stuff like boats?


Not in most parts of the world..

In fact I'd be very surprised to find, in the 21st Century, that there were any large stands of mast-grade timber anywhere in the world that anyone could freely lay their hands on since most is locked up either in nature reserves or on private/government land holdings. Good timber is expensive stuff and in some parts of the world is so coveted that harvest and export is controlled by law (eg. New Zealand Kauri, Tasmanian Huon Pine and even, IIRC, Burma Teak) .


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## Capt Len

Most every one knows somebody with a wood lot on the back 40. Once I asked (successfully) for a large fir growing roadside past Sooke. Made it easy to load onto a boat trailer with the butt in the trunk of my 66 Belaire At 14 inch by 50 ft not your usual sunday drive.but not my first nor my biggest.haywire operation.


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## christian.hess

Capt Len said:


> Most every one knows somebody with a wood lot on the back 40. Once I asked (successfully) for a large fir growing roadside past Sooke. Made it easy to load onto a boat trailer with the butt in the trunk of my 66 Belaire At 14 inch by 50 ft not your usual sunday drive.but not my first nor my biggest.haywire operation.


thats what I meant! I wasnt talking globally I was specificaly reffering to you guys up in bc where my sister lives for example a nice old spruce would be easy to come by for some beer or something


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## AlaskaMC

I get an allotment of high quality timber (Sitka spruce for example) as a resident. 

How about I save money using timbers for my cabin, then use the savings for an aluminum mast.


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## blt2ski

Sailboat rescued from Arctic ice in Alaska | KING5.com Seattle

BS boat?!?!?!?

Looks like something he has designed. Probably a steel one, but looks slow for what this person was trying to pull off!

marty


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## Classic30

AlaskaMC said:


> I get an allotment of high quality timber (Sitka spruce for example) as a resident.


Oooh, you lucky b******!!!   



AlaskaMC said:


> How about I save money using timbers for my cabin, then use the savings for an aluminum mast.


..or you could fell it, sneak it out of the country and sell it on the open market for enough money to buy a whole new house!...


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## Capt Len

Silver Spray Ranch in East Sooke was planted with spruce back in the mid 30's to replace the spars on the tall ships being lost to submarines (see 'the last grain race or Irving Johnson's film going around the horn) Those tall ships were never replaced and the trees (now second and third generation was the source (free) of the spars on Thane. Booms and gaffs still sound after 30 years (soaked in zinc napthalate) Alaska milled a 5 ft dia fir for all the masts an spars on the Noth Star of Herchel Island and the masts for Blarney Pilgrim and Thane.When I needed a buck or two I'd whip up a set of trolling poles for some local troller. Wood just grows on trees around here.


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## christian.hess

bingo...thats what I was talking about!

now

lets talk teak...jajajaj come on down!


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## AlaskaMC

Classic30 said:


> Oooh, you lucky b******!!!
> 
> ..or you could fell it, sneak it out of the country and sell it on the open market for enough money to buy a whole new house!...


I can just see trying to sneak that past TSA outta the country. _"Sir, what is that in your pocket"_... You can insert your own punchline for that one. :laugher


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## Classic30

christian.hess said:


> lets talk teak...jajajaj come on down!


Happy to.. if you can define exactly which species of the wood commonly called 'Teak' you are actually referring to. 

..but then this thread is about Steel, so such discussion might be considered a little off-topic.


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## christian.hess

this thread has been about nothing for the last 90 percent of it...of absolute no help, no info, nothing but constant bashing between 2 sides or thought processes, that only like to belittle the other side

so if you think talking about teak is OFF topic or going to throw this thread out into space!

I beg to differ! jajajajajajajajaajajaja

regarding what species, "laurel" is the most popular here...similiar to the honduran and costa rican teak varietes but other woods native to here are "copinol" which is a hard and heavy as the heaviest oak you can find. we made a nice piece for our boat down here when we suffered some damage on a mooring ball.

anywhoo

back to steel wink wink


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## bobperry

Speak for yourself Christian. You do not speak for me.


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## smackdaddy

Actually, this thread is on track to becoming one of the most-read ever on SN. Before Bob came along and starting talking about the pros and cons of steel, and injecting some reality into the conversation, it was nothing. In fact, there are 35 people reading this as I type.

I think it's doing just fine as it is, Christian.


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## christian.hess

bobperry said:


> Speak for yourself Christian. You do not speak for me.


bob Im not speaking for you or anybody...I came on looking for ideas, thoughts, pros and cons...

none of that is here...at least lately

its just childish whats on here...

thats the reality...

Im not saying its you...or naming names I just dont get it.

If you feel offended by that comment well Im sorry...


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## christian.hess

smackdaddy said:


> Actually, this thread is on track to becoming one of the most-read ever on SN. Before Bob came along and starting talking about the pros and cons of steel, and injecting some reality into the conversation, it was nothing. In fact, there are 35 people reading this as I type.
> 
> I think it's doing just fine as it is, Christian.


maybe...but what does the amount of people viewing have to do with the content?

its doing plenty fine for popcorn viewers but anytime someone asks something pertinent, or really wants to learn the thread goes silent.

as soon as brent comes on and says something like my keel is a million tons strong he gets the wrath of kahn...

is this not the case?

just to be in the middle here I thought jeff hs post was great...its just unfortunate one has to weed through so much back and forth to get to that.


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## Capt Len

Shucks, I'm glad that got cleared up. The way my ears were burning I thought you were talking about me. Apologize for going off topic with talk of real wood on tall ships. I realize thats got nothing to do with the sailors of today but one's attitudes ,experiencs and beliefs can get in the way of others reality.


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## christian.hess

Im sorry too...Ill delete my posts if anyone is offended...

peace to all


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## bobperry

I'd like to know more about "copinol". I have never heard that term before.


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## christian.hess

"copinol" is a native wood down here

its deep dark red, very very very heavy wood, and very little knots or grains that affect linear stregth if you will

it wood be the perfect wood for a keelsun or garboard, stub etc...

it does however not bend easily like other planking woods like mahogany, or teak for that matter.


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## bobperry

I Googled "copinol" Christian but most hits were in Spanish and that is not one of my languages. I see copinol beads and copinol weather mostly.


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## smackdaddy

christian.hess said:


> maybe...but what does the amount of people viewing have to do with the content?
> 
> its doing plenty fine for popcorn viewers but anytime someone asks something pertinent, or really wants to learn the thread goes silent.
> 
> as soon as brent comes on and says something like my keel is a million tons strong he gets the wrath of kahn...
> 
> is this not the case?
> 
> just to be in the middle here I thought jeff hs post was great...its just unfortunate one has to weed through so much back and forth to get to that.


Generally, people are very good judges of what they feel is valuable enough to read. People read this thread because it's interesting - on many levels. It may not always stick to a specific line that _you_ think it should - but it's obviously appealing to many people. This place is like a bar. Just sit back and enjoy the ramblings.

So don't worry so much about policing the thread content. It's valuable as it is. And it's fun.

That said, it's great having someone like Dirty around who's actually doing it. I learn a lot from him. Though I might not always agree with him, I respect him.

(PS - Brent only gets the wrath of kahn when he says something goofy...which is a lot.)


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## christian.hess

sorry I just like to learn...weeding thorugh crap is not a job I would ever wish on someone...

much respect for thread mods...I come from motorcyle forums and they are even worse than sailing forums sometimes

forget I said anything


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## christian.hess

bobperry said:


> I Googled "copinol" Christian but most hits were in Spanish and that is not one of my languages. I see copinol beads and copinol weather mostly.


copinol is said to be exported to europe and the states by the name or "courbaril"

hymanea species

other names, guapinol, jatoba, algarrobo

trees can reach 40meters high...

obviously like other woods they differ from country to country in both strength, quality and uses....


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## MedSailor

Ch,

The pros and cons of steel is the title of this thread, but it's not what it's about. If you want strict adherence check out cruising forum. I, for one, commend sailnet for letting this epic thread go "off leash". 

If you don't want to wade through "crap" then pass this thread by. Unsubscribe. 

On the other hand if you want to watch Goliath squish David, stay tuned....

MedSailor


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## outbound

Earlier there was discussion of plate on frame v. frameless. My impression is for vessels over 40-45' you can escape the major portion of the weight penalty of steel even using plate thick enough to allow ice certification. Can we discuss pro/con of this?
Would point out 99.9per cent of commercial shipping is in steel.
Steel boats and ships sink. Some of the most famous get movies or books written about them.


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## Classic30

christian.hess said:


> copinol is said to be exported to europe and the states by the name or "courbaril"
> 
> hymanea species
> 
> other names, guapinol, jatoba, algarrobo
> 
> trees can reach 40meters high...
> 
> obviously like other woods they differ from country to country in both strength, quality and uses....


So.. you mean this stuff then??






A.k.a "Brazilian Cherry". A very hard hardwood - but not as hard as "Brazillian Walnut". Not a "Teak" either, but looks to me like a good boat-building timber. I'm sure Bob would know of it.


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## SloopJonB

Classic30 said:


> Happy to.. if you can define exactly which species of the wood commonly called 'Teak' you are actually referring to.


Tectona Grandis - accept no substitutes.


----------



## Classic30

SloopJonB said:


> Tectona Grandis - accept no substitutes.


Burmese Teak... right you are.  ..but is the "teak" you're buying old-growth or plantation? From Burma or Costa Rica?? 

I've seen much variation in quality recently and since Philippine Teak is now harder to come by I'm thinking of switching something else - just not sure what.


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## christian.hess

Classic30 said:


> So.. you mean this stuff then??
> 
> Hymenaea courbaril - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> A.k.a "Brazilian Cherry". A very hard hardwood - but not as hard as "Brazillian Walnut". Not a "Teak" either, but looks to me like a good boat-building timber. I'm sure Bob would know of it.


didnt say it was teak but yes thats the stuff...changes by zone a bit...

down here its used for marine construction of beach houses and stuff for big beams holding the thatch roofs...

its vey strong and heavy...


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## christian.hess

MedSailor said:


> Ch,
> 
> The pros and cons of steel is the title of this thread, but it's not what it's about. If you want strict adherence check out cruising forum. I, for one, commend sailnet for letting this epic thread go "off leash".
> 
> If you don't want to wade through "crap" then pass this thread by. Unsubscribe.
> 
> On the other hand if you want to watch Goliath squish David, stay tuned....
> 
> MedSailor


interesting...


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## SloopJonB

Classic30 said:


> Burmese Teak... right you are.  ..but is the "teak" you're buying old-growth or plantation? From Burma or Costa Rica??
> 
> I've seen much variation in quality recently and since Philippine Teak is now harder to come by I'm thinking of switching something else - just not sure what.


You can tell plantation teak at a glance - no colour. It's still better than almost anything else for the outside of a boat, especially if you plan to leave it bare where colour doesn't matter after a while.

On a boat, teak is truly the king of woods - everything else is vying for a distant second place.


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## christian.hess

well the issue with teak these days is unless you are in burma deep in the jungle good luck getting people to tell you where it really is from...


down here all good teak is exported and all national stuff is green teak that is not cured...

costa rica, honduras etc...too

we had some lovely hatches and boards made for my boat down here(double diagonal planked teak h28) and even though it was teak, and expensive it was green and bad quality...same thing happened in panama, especially if used externally.

I forget the wood we used in panama for the stuffing box which had developed rot, we had one made by an old very old panamanian boat builder and he did not use teak but something better(it was harder and heavier than teak) and did a great job

the thing with wood is the more you know and experience the better decisions you can make in real time...

for example id be hard pressed to buy "burmese teak" or honduran mahogany, or old growth fir, without seing it, same goes for any material I guess...like 316l stainless

or bronze instead of crappy brass, or laton like they call it down here...

fwiw

my experience with copinol down here or "brazillian cherry" is that it would be a fine replacement for OAK say in frames and strong beams etc...

go with whats available and is good versus reputation


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## SloopJonB

There are better woods than teak for things like stuffing boxes. Ironwood, gumwood - any of those sort of greasy, super heavy woods.


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## christian.hess

exactly...


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## Jaramaz

Dirtyfloats said:


> I'm obviously not comparing road traffic to boat traffic. That's ridiculous. I'm just saying accidents are something to consider.
> North of the 50th parallel, the preferred vehicle seems to be larger, and more heavily built.
> We have actual nature to contend with...


Well, Dirty, I am living and sailing very close to the 60 parallel, and. .... Frankly, hardly any steel sailing boats.

Nature we have as well. Nothing strange with that, guess this is rather usual.

J


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## Dirtyfloats

Sure, 
For some strange reason (well strange to me at least) steel sailboats just are not that common. Even in places where virtually every working boat is of steel or aluminum. 
Maybe it just says something about the types of people into sailboats. I dunno. 
For me, i wouldn't want any other material for my boat, or truck. For me its easy to work with, strong, and affordable. 
My only complaint really is the scrap metal industry shipping away all of our good pieces before people can get a chance to re-use them. 
On that note. Its impossible to re use fiberglass, and more difficult with wood (sorta).

Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


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## Brent Swain

Martin Forster just cruised in , in his new 36 ft brentboat, "Prairie Maid" ( Prairie made). He did a beautiful job on her, and gets constant compliments everywhere he goes. 
His past experience is chartering Hunters, which he says don't sail anywhere near as well as his brentboat. In fact he said that ,by comparison , Hunters he has chartered are abysmally poor sailers compared to his brentboat, especially upwind. 

I stepped on the rail of a valiant 32 recently. It heeled far more than my 31 ft brentboat twin keeler.

Teak is a huge waste of money , especially for interiors. Lighter woods, like maple, yellow cedar , etc are far better choices, eliminating that dark cave look of teak.

Rather than spend a quarter million on a boat , wouldn't it make more sense to spend under 60 K on a good boat, and have the rest for using her ? To many cruisers blow a huge portion of their cruising funds on the boat, and have little left for cruising. That is why most spend too much of their lives tied to a dock


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## Dean101

Brent, have your prices went up? I thought you were quoting much cheaper earlier in the thread. Did you ever recall the brand of ports that used 1/16" hinge pins? I really am curious about that.


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## Capt Len

Most of todays Burma teak has been cut in a Thai forest reserve, dragged over the bodies of dead Thai forestry officers to Myranmar and sold as legal stuff , Plantation teak from Costa Rico etc, may not look as good but how about those blood stains on your cabin sides?


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> His past experience is chartering Hunters, which he says don't sail anywhere near as well as his brentboat. In fact he said that ,by comparison , Hunters he has chartered are abysmally poor sailers compared to his brentboat, especially upwind.














Brent Swain said:


> Rather than spend a quarter million on a boat , wouldn't it make more sense to spend under 60 K on a good boat, and have the rest for using her ? To many cruisers blow a huge portion of their cruising funds on the boat, and have little left for cruising. That is why most spend too much of their lives tied to a dock


Absolutely. I totally agree, Brent. It's even better to spend less than $20K on one of the _many_ BS boats people are desperately trying to offload so they can buy a Hunter - rather than spend years building yet another BS yacht that they'll just lose _another_ $40K on.


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## chall03

Brent Swain said:


> Martin Forster just cruised in , in his new 36 ft brentboat, "Prairie Maid" ( Prairie made). He did a beautiful job on her, and gets constant compliments everywhere he goes.


Would love to see pics if Martin is willing.



Brent Swain said:


> His past experience is chartering Hunters, which he says don't sail anywhere near as well as his brentboat. In fact he said that ,by comparison , Hunters he has chartered are abysmally poor sailers compared to his brentboat, especially upwind.


Can you get a Brentboat with a spa bath or would it affect upwind performance???









Hunter 50 Centre Cockpit.


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## MedSailor

Can you put a sauna into a brentboat? If not, I don't want one.

MedSailor


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## djodenda

MedSailor said:


> Can you put a sauna into a brentboat? If not, I don't want one.
> 
> MedSailor


Don't want the sauna, or the brentboat?


----------



## christian.hess

MedSailor said:


> Can you put a sauna into a brentboat? If not, I don't want one.
> 
> MedSailor


quit rubbing it in man...

you have us all beat...be nice

wink wink


----------



## Capt Len

Local artist Godfrey Stevens installed a similar tub in his steel boat. Maybe not as spiff as your show but I'll bet it got more shared use by nubile crew than most of us can dream of. What speaks to you?


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## bobperry

When you talk about "Hunters" you are talking about a huge series of very different boats stretching back years. To lump the performance of all Hunters together like it was a static genetic type is just plain ignorant. Yes, there are poor performing Hunters and yes there are very good performing Hunters. BS is getting desperate again when he talks about Hunters as a single type of boat. He simply has no idea what he is talking about. Even a cursory look at the full range of Hunters should tell anyone with an eye that over the years there has been no such thing as a fixed Hunter hull shape. 

It's just more BS.

There is a Hunter about 35' LOA that cruises by my place regularly. I'd guess is was no older than ten years at most. I'm pretty discerning when it comes to performance but I have to say that this Hunter moves along very well. Recently Hunter has used some very good designers like Glen Henderson for their hull shapes.


----------



## Jeff_H

bobperry said:


> When you talk about "Hunters" you are talking about a huge series of very different boats stretching back years. To lump the performance of all Hunters together like it was a static genetic type is just plain ignorant. Yes, there are poor performing Hunters and yes there are very good performing Hunters. BS is getting desperate again when he talks about Hunters as a single type of boat. He simply has no idea what he is talking about. Even a cursory look at the full range of Hunters should tell anyone with an eye that over the years there has been no such thing as a fixed Hunter hull shape.
> 
> It's just more BS.
> 
> There is a Hunter about 35' LOA that cruises by my place regularly. I'd guess is was no older than ten years at most. I'm pretty discerning when it comes to performance but I have to say that this Hunter moves along very well. Recently Hunter has used some very good designers like Glen Henderson for their hull shapes.


One of the things that I have consistently heard from surveyors is that Hunter does a particularly good job at designing and installing their systems in a manner which makes them easy to inspect, and which consistently meets or exceeds ABYC and CE standards, something which they say cannot be said for most production builders or for some even much more highly regarded brands.

I have always liked the lines on the boats which are reportedly the Paul Lindenberg influenced/designed Hunters from the mid-1980's such as the Hunter 28.5, and the 35 and 37 Legends.

Jeff


----------



## smackdaddy

Ah, it's okay. There's one reason BS hammers on Hunter: It's because I have one...and it has beautiful lines, goes really fast, is super-comfortable and luxurious, keeps us safe, and isn't at all the leaking nightmare he's convinced all plastic boats are. AND it was far cheaper to purchase than building one of his anvils could ever be.

I'll leave him in his ignorant bliss and rusting hull gnawing on moose meat.


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## SloopJonB

Jeff_H said:


> One of the things that I have consistently heard from surveyors is that Hunter does a particularly good job at designing and installing their systems in a manner which makes them easy to inspect, and which consistently meets or exceeds ABYC and CE standards, something which they say cannot be said for most production builders or for some even much more highly regarded brands.
> 
> I have always liked the lines on the boats which are reportedly the Paul Lindenberg influenced/designed Hunters from the mid-1980's such as the Hunter 28.5, and the 35 and 37 Legends.
> 
> Jeff


IMO, the Legends are the best looking boats they ever built. A friend has a last gen 38 and it is just FULL of thoughtful details. I especially like the way the through hulls are clustered under the galley sole - short hose runs and everything in one, easily accessible place.

The boat has all the comforts of home but I have to say I don't really like it - maybe for that very reason?


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## Panope

Greetings Sailnet People.

First Post for me. My boat as already been introduced a couple of times in this thread with pictures. She is a Colvin, Saugeen Witch that my father and I (as a child in the 70's) fitted out from a hull that was welded up by Greenwich Yachts (defunct) of Vancouver B.C. The boat was built per Colvin plans as a poop deck, gaff schooner.

In the year 2000, I brought the boat to my home and started on a vast modification/refit. The Goal of the project was to optimize the boat for cruising the Inside Passage between Olympia WA, and Skagway AK. I have no plans to go offshore. I recently got the project wrapped up and she is sailing well.

I made thousands of change's but here is a abbreviated list of some of the noteworthy ones:

-Removed *everything* from deck and housetop upward. I am talking about grinding off *all* attatchments, stanchions, pulpits, hatch coamings, steering box, seats, sampson posts, chainplates, chimney flue, deck boxes, grab rails, etc....
-Replaced *all* systems except for the integral water tanks, ballast, and the round port holes. 
-Constructed pilot house. 
-Moved engine beds forward and lower (for more headroom in pilot house).
-Increased size of propeller aperture to accommodate larger prop.
-Constructed new gaff sloop sailing rig. Spars are made from schedule 80 aluminum pipe.
-Endless new deck treatments: Anchor handling gear, davit, handrails, tabernacle, hatches, chainplates, etc....

It tried to fabricate as much gear as possible because I *very much* like to make stuff and it is less expensive than buying new. Don't ask about how much time it takes.

Here are a few shots.

















































































































































Although Panope is constructed from aluminum, the majority of Saugeen Witches are built of steel. The biggest design difference between the two materials is in the amount of ballast used - 5,000 lbs for aluminum construction, 3,500 lbs for steel (data from memory - could be wrong).

These boats are a little tender to begin with so I would hazard a guess that a steel hulled Witch would not be a good candidate for a pilot house addition. Panope does fine with this weight increase in part because I eliminated an entire mast.

On the subject of guessing, this project was designed almost entirely by the seat of my pants. The pilot house drawing was literally just a sketch on a piece of scrap paper. I did make one scale drawing of the sail plan to submit to the sail-maker. I did not conduct any weight analysis.

The one area that did get "designed" before construction commenced was the saloon table. I bounced ideas back and forth (via images on the internet) with a very talented designer that was graciously willing to help me when I reached a stumbling block. That designer was Bob Perry.

Steve


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## bobperry

Welcome Panope! Glad to see you here. Now I don't have to toot your horn anymore. Your boat is one of my top ten favorites. It is unique and beautifully done and proof that metal boats do not have to be ugly and style anemic.


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## chall03

bobperry said:


> Welcome Panope! Glad to see you here. Now I don't have to toot your horn anymore. Your boat is one of my top ten favorites. It is unique and beautifully done and proof that metal boats do not have to be ugly and style anemic.


What he said.

Welcome Panope.


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## MedSailor

Panope,

You have blurred the line between engineering and art. I am very impressed.

MedSailor


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## Capt Len

Sill got lots of charts inside to Skagway if you are going that way,


----------



## outbound

P is proof it doesn't matter what material is used if the benefits of that material are exploited with a good design that's well executed. Good boat for that purpose well done. Love the bollard.


----------



## MedSailor

Before my next wiring project, I'm going to pull up this photo and just stare at it for a while. Hopefully it will remind me not to cut any corners.










MedSailor


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## bobperry

Panope sets the bar pretty high. There is never anything sloppy in his work. I guess when you build your own airplane you learn not to cut corners.


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## SloopJonB

MedSailor said:


> Before my next wiring project, I'm going to pull up this photo and just stare at it for a while. Hopefully it will remind me not to cut any corners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MedSailor


Assuming the usual # of feet of heavy battery cable, that pic has around 25% - 30% of the entire cost of my boat in it. 

If I stared at that pic too long while contemplating rewiring my boat I think I'd go back to oil lamps & hand starting.

I'm not worthy.


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## Panope

Thanks everyone, for the warm welcome.

Capt Len: Very generous offer. I wont be headed North for the big trip for a few years as I am in a fairly "domestic" phase of life currently. But thanks anyway.

outbound: Good point about materials. I'll mention that although I really dig aluminum as a boat building material, I would love this boat the same no matter what she was made of. Emotional attachment does not adhere to any form of logic.

MedSailor: I worked for a couple years at a high-end yacht builder. When they gave me my first electrical wiring project, they said to just make it beautiful no matter how long it takes.

Bob: I think I got whatever I have from the examples my parents set. Dad would stick through a long project no matter what. Mom was a natural born artist who was always searching for beauty.

SloopJonB: Ya, I could have shortened up some of those runs. I hate it when wires cross each other. O.C.D.

I'll post some more shots of things that are relevant to the topic.

Fore deck hatch doubles as a snug seat for two. Will remain unpainted.



















The only piece of advice that my father offered for this rebuild was: "Don't have any wood on the outside of the boat" (We love wood and love working with wood but We dislike repetitive maintenance). The goal was achieved when the teak chimney wedge was replaced by this unit that is welded to the cabin top.



















I eliminated the conventional through hulls and welded standpipes in their place.

Here is the raw water intake. Marlon Valve is above water line. With the strainer lid and valve open. Blockages can be reamed clear with a strait rod (fuel dipstick).



















Shroud chain plates. One per side. three layer of plate totaling one inch thick at eye.










Davit/Radar mast.










Davit pivot socket.



















Boom received a tapered, octagonal section aft.



















Octagon to round splice prior to welding.










Mast head. Same sort of tapered octagon.



















Fuel tank 45 gal. One port, one starboard. 90 gal total.










Fuel Sump. Bronze fittings have since been changed out to stainless steel.










Steering system components.



















The wheel needed to be placed as far outboard as possible. The clearance Blister got me a couple extra inches.



















Steve


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## bobperry

I can't even see the bar anymore.


----------



## SloopJonB

Now you're just showing off! 

You need to give BS some style lessons. You seem to sort of subscribe to his underlying philosophy of strong & simple & foolproof but there is just no comparison in the execution - you do a lot of very cool things with that boat. I'm sure any outfit like Palmer Johnson would hire you on the spot with your boat as a resume.

Your Dad gave you good advice re: no wood.

P.S. - OCD is good when it comes to wiring, especially on a metal boat.


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## smackdaddy

Panope wins.


----------



## Panope

OK, so here is an idea I have been kicking around in my head for a while:

Step 1. Hire an engineering wizz (Tim Nolan, Jim Franklin etc.) to design a fiberglass to aluminum hull/deck joint that is absolutely leak-proof and permenant.

Step 2. Pick out your favorite moulded composite boat. Go to the current owners of the hull mold and pay them to lay-up a nice solid glass and epoxy hull (for me, I would be talking to the guys over at Cape George Yachts, about 15 minutes from my house).

Step 3. Hire a sailboat designer wizz (Bob Perry) to to draw up gorgeous deck and house structures with all the tricks for perfect ergonomics and sailing function.

Step 4. Fabricate deck and house structure from welded aluminum plate. Attach deck to hull per step 1.

Step 5. Fit out interior as desired.

The above hybrid construction technique would take advantage of the strong suits of both materials while avoiding some of thier pitfalls.

Solid glass/epoxy moulded hull gives beautiful curvy shapes, no blisters, great strength, no electrolysis, no rust.

Welded aluminum deck/house structure means everything welded on with no (few) penetrations, no soggy cores, no repetive re-bedding, easy to attach super strong bollards/chain plates/anchor gear/etc., no need for much paint on the aluminum as the nice shinny hull will give the boat some pizzazz.

I have heard of some builders that have experimented with the exact opposite of what I propose (aluminum hull with glass deck/house). To my way of thinking, they got it absolutely ass-backwards.

What do you think? Have I completely lost my marbles?

Steve


----------



## Panope

SloopJonB: I guess a little showing off once in a while isn't too bad a thing.

Smackdaddy: Everyone who enjoys their boat is a winner.

Steve


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## smurphny

Very nice work. Neat stuff. Love that octagon to round splice! In trying to find the actual comparison of aluminum vs fiberglass, found this website which gives a nice chart of comparative properties: http://www.afpfiberglass.com/pdf/comp-allum-insert.pdf
Note the weight and coefficient of expansion comparison. The CoE seems to be a bit worrisome in any deck to hull joint over time.


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## smackdaddy

Panope said:


> SloopJonB: I guess a little showing off once in a while isn't too bad a thing.
> 
> Smackdaddy: Everyone who enjoys their boat is a winner.
> 
> Steve


You're obviously much more magnanimous than I.


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## SloopJonB

Panope - I'm curious about that fuel sump setup - firstly, how are bronze & alloy inferior to S/S & alloy? We all know about alloy & S/S corroding together.

Second, why did you use screw in elbows & nipples instead of simply welding on alloy elbows, maybe with flared lips on them ALA automotive fuel & brake lines to secure the hose connections?


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## Panope

SloopJonB said:


> Now you're just showing off!
> 
> You need to give BS some style lessons. You seem to sort of subscribe to his underlying philosophy of strong & simple & foolproof...............


There are many parts of Brent's boat building philosophy that I agree with wholeheartedly. It comes from the boating background provided by my dad. I am certain that if my dad had built a Brent boat, I would have given it the same love and attention that this Colvin recieved.

That said, I am equally sure that if I had grown up on go-fast racer type boats, I would be showing pictures of cool, high tech, carbon fiber parts that I had laid-up. I am I little envious when out on the water and a humdrum composite boat goes gliding by, pointing 10 degrees higher and a knot or two faster.

Steve


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## Panope

SloopJonB said:


> Panope - I'm curious about that fuel sump setup - firstly, how are bronze & alloy inferior to S/S & alloy? We all know about alloy & S/S corroding together.
> 
> Second, why did you use screw in elbows & nipples instead of simply welding on alloy elbows, maybe with flared lips on them ALA automotive fuel & brake lines to secure the hose connections?


SS and marine grade aluminum actually do fairly well together. Definitely better than Bronze given bronze's lower position on the galvonic metals chart.

I think many people have a negative view of SS and Aluminum due to the widespread use of cast aluminum (crappy aluminum) and SS in sailboat deck hardware. My experience with 5000 series aluminum plate or 6061 series aluminum extrusions fastened with SS is very favorable.

I chose to weld aluminum couplings (cut in half) as that was what was available locally on the day I was buildiing the sump. Maybe we should include A.D.D. (along with the O.C.D.) to my diagnosis?

It is actually standard tank building procedure to weld female threads. Allows one the freedom to change fittings as needs change.

Steve


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## bobperry

Panope:
"Step 1. Hire an engineering wizz (Tim Nolan, Jim Franklin etc.) to design a fiberglass to aluminum hull/deck joint that is absolutely leak-proof and permanant."

This has already been done. My 63' WILD HORSES has an alu hull and a composite deck. The boat is now over ten years old and as good as new with no hull to deck joint issues. The boat was built by Jim Betts, now in Anacortes, and Jimk is a whizz with alu details.


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## Panope

Bob, with the WILD HORSES hull/deck joint, was there a provision to let the two materials expand and contract at different rates or did you just fasten the **** out of it and force them to expand and contract in unison?

Steve


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## bobperry

Steve:
We used a wide alu "shelf" or flange off the hull and a split pipe edge detail to tuck the composite deck into so we ended up with a nice, rolled look to the deck edge. We had a lot of bonding surface. Jim Betts, the builder, came up with the detail and I added the split pipe idea. This was not the first deck Betts had built like this. When we get together some day I can draw a sketch for you. It has been flawless for over ten years. You simply can't see where composite ends and alu begins. It's a mechanical and chemical bond using the alu toe rail fastenings. You and Betts would get along very well. He's a whizz with alu, a true artist.


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## Brent Swain

The most common and biggest screwup on steel boats is too little paint on the inside. I have seen that kill far to many steel boats, far before their time, especially Foulkes and Fehr boats. Inside you get one chance at it, whereas outside, it can be corrected, if your paint is not thick enough there, and it becomes obvious. 3 coats of epoxy tar is minimal inside, under the spray foam.

Martin ran his 36 ft brentboat thru his computer, to check for comfort factor. He found her to be in the same ball park as Swans and Aldens.
No surprise. The same deadrise and beam to length ratios gets roughly the same results.
He said ,compared to the Hunters he has chartered ( Giant milk jugs ,built to condo priorities rather than sailing priorities) his brentboat sails like a dream.

To check the reliability of advice on steel boats, ask the person giving the advice, how many steel boats he has owned and maintained, over how long. Ask how many he has built. Ask how long he has cruised full time in his steel boat, and on what kind of budget.
What we have here is one person with nearly 4 decades of building maintaining , cruising in, and designing steel boats, being told by people with zero or near zero experience in steel boats, that he has it all wrong. Getting advice from such sources, is like asking your six year old to explain nuclear physics to you.


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## Caribbeachbum

_ ...make it beautiful no matter how long it takes._

A perfect quote ... I want to carve it into bronze and put it in my workshop.

Thank you.


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## mitiempo

Panope said:


> SS and marine grade aluminum actually do fairly well together. Definitely better than Bronze given bronze's lower position on the galvonic metals chart.
> 
> I think many people have a negative view of SS and Aluminum due to the widespread use of cast aluminum (crappy aluminum) and SS in sailboat deck hardware. My experience with 5000 series aluminum plate or 6061 series aluminum extrusions fastened with SS is very favorable.
> 
> I chose to weld aluminum couplings (cut in half) as that was what was available locally on the day I was buildiing the sump. Maybe we should include A.D.D. (along with the O.C.D.) to my diagnosis?
> 
> It is actually standard tank building procedure to weld female threads. Allows one the freedom to change fittings as needs change.
> 
> Steve


Why did you not use aluminum tank fittings?

Great boat and workmanship.


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## bobperry

"in the same ball park as Swans and Aldens." BS

What does this mean, exactly? I can show you Swans with high deadrise and I can show you a lot of Swans with no deadrise at all. As for "Aldens", specifically what "Aldens" are being referred to here? This is just more BS from BS. I agree that boats with similar deadrise, beam, BWL and d/l's will have similar comfort ratios, that is intuitive for most of us. But I wouldn't back up my statement with nonsensical references just to give it credibility. It's the same as saying "Hunters" to indicate one general hull form. It's not reality. It indicates ignorance of changes in design by different builders. Boats can share a L/B while having distinctly different hull forms.


But, to think that you need to run a boat through a computer to get Brewer's Comfort Factor is really silly. There are four simple variables ( displ, LOA, DWL and beam) in a very simple formula. Deadrise does not factor in at all. It's just not one of the variables. Why would anyone need a computer for this? BS continues his ongoing struggle with numbers.


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## tommays

6061 and red brass is one of natures locktites and the all of the easy to buy brass is red  

6061+SS+nickel never seize= a mistake thats nerve coming apart  

In the depths of the CG boat fuel system guide lines there is plenty of info on size and required baffles as well as fittings


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## Panope

mitiempo said:


> Why did you not use aluminum tank fittings?
> 
> Great boat and workmanship.


Thanks, Brian

Although I (and everyone else) use aluminum plumbing fittings almost exclusively in aircraft, I feel that in the marine world we can afford the weight penalty of SS and bronze fittings in exchange for strength.

The sump that I built is in an area that can easily be stepped on by a person. Aluminum nipples would be vulnerable to being broken off.

Steve


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## Panope

Long ago, when I was a young teen, I spent a very, very long weekend helping a friend sandblast his steel Saugeen Witch that he was building. His craftsmanship and metal work was superb throughout the build and the paint prep was no exception.

A large, industrial, diesel powered air compressor/sandblaster was rented. The builder was on a very tight budget so we had great incentive to get the blasting done as timely as possible. Also, one should not dally around too long before the first coat of epoxy goes on. Best to begin Blasting at the start of a LONG period of VERY dry forecast weather.

My job was to keep the air compressor going, keep the hopper full of sand, collect and screen sand for recycling and tend to any blockages. The misery that I experienced was pretty awesome. Each day ended with a vain attempt to remove sand from every bodily orifice.

As bad as my job was standing on firm level ground next to the boat, the builder of the boat's job at the nozzle was ten times worse. He spent hour after hour after hour carefully blasting EVERY single surface - frames, stringers, plate, bilges, etc.

The boat received a very thick build up of epoxy inside and out. In the 10 years or so that I was around the boat, I did not recall a single rust stain.

I am not familiar with any of the other techniques for steel hull paint prep (pre-primed metal?, flame-spraying?, tar?), but If I was building in steel I would bite the bullet and sand-blast the S.O.B. in-spite of the Post Dramatic Stress Disorder that would certainly follow. 

Steve


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## Dirtyfloats

Nice boat panope. Looks really well done.

Even the words hull to deck joint make me cringe though. 

One question though.
Why all the trouble of the octagonal mast/ boom?
Just to accommodate a taper? 

Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


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## Dirtyfloats

As far as sandblasting goes. 
I'm still not sure if i will have to do it. Depends on how long it takes me to finish the boat out. I built with pre primed plate with the intention of avoiding blasting, but i dunno if its working some days. 

If i do it, i will likely build a wet sandblaster. Much less horrendous to use, and much less finicky about sand.

Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


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## MedSailor

Hellosailor, a member here, seems to know a thing or two about sandblasting. He has talked about a dry ice blaster which works as well as sand, but the media evaporates so there is no cleanup. Sounds pretty awesome.

MedSailor


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## Dirtyfloats

Sounds pretty expensive.

Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


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## Panope

Thanks, Dirtyfloats.

Yes, I did the octagon thing for the taper. Also, I had the plate on hand so I ended up designing based on what was lying around in front of me, as is often the case.

It was a bit to much work however. Especially grinding out the welds for the entire length of the octagon.

For the Gaff extension, I happened to have the right diameter tube laying around so I used that. I then cut 4 "darts" extending from the tip to 3 feet down the length of the spar. After cutting the darts, I squeezed the remaining tube creating a very nice taper. The resulting cross-section turned out to be a very pleasing shape. Sort of an "over inflated square". I was so happy with this result I had wished I had done the same for the other spars. Oh well, next boat will be perfect - ya right.










Here is the other end of the gaff.


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## bobperry

Next boat?
We need to have a talk Steve.


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## Panope

Bob,

If you are concerned about my sanity, no worries as there will be no more "big boats" for me - Panope is more boat than I need as it is.

Now, if someone else is writing the checks for _their_ dream boat, I am all ears......

Steve


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## bobperry

Steve:
I'll keep that in mind. I've still got a few boats in my head busting to come out.


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## Dirtyfloats

Panope:

In the end, how did building the tapered aluminum mast, compare cost wise to an extrusion? even a used one?
Seems like a lot of welding time, gas, consumables, etc...

Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


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## Dirtyfloats

Im still trying to decide which route to go for a mast....

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## Panope

Dirtyfloats said:


> Panope:
> 
> In the end, how did building the tapered aluminum mast, compare cost wise to an extrusion? even a used one?
> Seems like a lot of welding time, gas, consumables, etc...
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


Dirtyfloats:

First, by "extrusion" I will assume you meant to say a "modern mast oval cross section extrusion" as my schedule 80 water pipe mast is also an extrusion.

I kinda dig the old timer look of a traditional gaff rig with a the luff laced to a round cross section mast rather than the sail tracks, spreaders, uppers, lowers and all that other jazz associated with the more performance oriented oval cross section masts.

Only the top 4 feet of my mast is tapered and this was done for aesthetics. Many people who use round cross section spars do not taper the ends. This works just fine.

I needed to lengthen all three of my spars (I reused the pipe from Panope's previous schooner rig) and took the opportunity to taper - just because it looks cool to me.

I will repeat that last statement because it is very very important:

*BECAUSE IT LOOKS COOL TO ME*.

I could try and justify thousands of the decisions that I made while rebuilding Panope with logical, practical, or economical factors. In the end, that is all just of bunch of BullS#!T because this project was a creative outlet for me - driven by emotion.

Is yours an emotionally driven project?

Steve


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## bobperry

To my eye Steve's tapers say design "finesse". They simply look right and are totally in keeping with how a timber stick would have been shaped. I did the very same thing on the carbon poles in my schooner built by Jespersens. No taper just looks clumsy and elliptical extrusions on a gaff rig do not look right. No point in being design detail oriented on the hull and cabin trunk if you are not going to follow the same standards when it comes to the rig. That's what makes this boat so remarkable in my opinion.


Just had a survey sent to me for a 1978 Valiant 32, "Bristol condition", estimated fair market value $93,030.00. This is as good a survey for a boat of this age as I have ever seen. They are very tough little boats.


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## Panope

Bob:

Your schooner is a very handsome vessel. I am guessing those beautiful carbon spars where a big help in keeping the boat stiff. Do you recall how much the main mast weighed?

I just made a rough calculation for Panope's mast assuming 42 feet from keel step to head (tabernacle is made of same pipe as mast). Looks like it weights about 225 lbs. Not certain weather I have schedule 40 or 80 as my wall thickness (.275", just measured a piece of scrap) lies somewhere between the two. ??? 

Steve


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## bobperry

Steve:
If you want the weight of the bare carbon fibre pole it is 175 lbs. and 50' stick length.
My schooner is a far bigger and stiffer boat than yours and rig loads are much higher. I don't think we can do an apples for apples comparison. Your stick weight, 5.35 lbs. per foot is about a lb. heavier per foot than I would have thought appropriate. But I am guessing. However, I'm a really good guesser.

For instance, say you are about the same size and proportions as a Valiant 32, a stiff boat. The V-32 uses an alu section weighing 4.4 lbs. per foot. The section for the Esprit 37 was a 4.3 lbs. per foot section. I know for sure that would have been overkill for your boat.


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## bobperry

On the trip here from Australia, in good weather, the Fijian crew would gather at dusk on the fantail of our old Liberty ship and the bosun would bring out his guitar. Every night they would sing this song, the Fijian song of farewell. I consider it like getting a wet willy from God.
:Fiji isa lei from Marty Melbos on Vimeo


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## outbound

Bob I'm sitting in my boat in Falmouth Foreside Maine in thunderstorms and cold rain. The speedo is busted. We blew up the harkin block for the vang. The aft head doesn't work. We destroyed a batten pocket today as well. 
You are breaking my heart. 
Sailing to p town tomorrow. Wife has to get back to work. 
You are breaking my heart. 
It was the video that got me.


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## bobperry

Out:
I think it's all good. I can appreciate that you feel a little bit of what I feel. It is a good thing to go to the depths of what our emotions hold. It makes us humans. I am sorry if I brought you down. But in being down the up is so much more visible.

Sail on pal.


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## bobperry

Out:
If it makes you feel any better, it is cold and rainy here in the beautiful PNW.

I love it.
Suits my mood.

Goo night. Tomorrow is well,,,tomorrow. It will be a new challenge. And we will prevail.


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## outbound

Thanks. High light of the day was seeing a Peterson schooner go by. Know it's not a great performing rig but when one that's well proportioned like yours is on a reach just got to move you.


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## blt2ski

Hopefully some of the record amount of rain will slow some of the fires burning here in the state. I saw a lot of short term flooding in my travel literally around the sound today, along with lots of wrecks as folks tried to drive too fast for conditions. Worst was at the turn off to go north to port townsend just west of the hood canal bridge. Altho clearing up as I came across Admiralty straight on the ferry to whidbey, rained a bit to and from Anacortes, started to dry out after heading south from a stop on camino. Pretty nice by the time I hit Everett.........

Marty


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## Jeff_H

outbound said:


> Thanks. High light of the day was seeing a Peterson schooner go by. Know it's not a great performing rig but when one that's well proportioned like yours is on a reach just got to move you.


Murray Peterson's Coaster series schooners were about as beautiful as a boat can get. When I was a kid, I carved a half model of one, painted it the color of one a Coaster named 'Herandis', which was in the yard where we kept our boat, mounted the model on a varnished mahogany plaque and gave it to the owner just on the hopes of getting an introduction and a sail onboard. The sail was worth every hour that I spent carving and finishing that model.

Jeff


----------



## Dirtyfloats

Panope said:


> Dirtyfloats:
> 
> First, by "extrusion" I will assume you meant to say a "modern mast oval cross section extrusion" as my schedule 80 water pipe mast is also an extrusion.
> 
> I kinda dig the old timer look of a traditional gaff rig with a the luff laced to a round cross section mast rather than the sail tracks, spreaders, uppers, lowers and all that other jazz associated with the more performance oriented oval cross section masts.
> 
> Only the top 4 feet of my mast is tapered and this was done for aesthetics. Many people who use round cross section spars do not taper the ends. This works just fine.
> 
> I needed to lengthen all three of my spars (I reused the pipe from Panope's previous schooner rig) and took the opportunity to taper - just because it looks cool to me.
> 
> I will repeat that last statement because it is very very important:
> 
> *BECAUSE IT LOOKS COOL TO ME*.
> 
> I could try and justify thousands of the decisions that I made while rebuilding Panope with logical, practical, or economical factors. In the end, that is all just of bunch of BullS#!T because this project was a creative outlet for me - driven by emotion.
> 
> Is yours an emotionally driven project?
> 
> Steve
> 
> Well, i suppose its as emotionally driven as anything else i do.
> 
> i definitely find alot of joy in building my boat, that's for sure.
> 
> Lots of things however, i do, because i need/have to.
> Like spending the last 5 days putting an engine in an old roberts...


----------



## MedSailor

outbound said:


> Bob I'm sitting in my boat in Falmouth Foreside Maine in thunderstorms and cold rain. *The speedo is busted. .*..


Don't you hate it when that happens? Usually happens to me when I see a hot sailor-girl in a bikini. 

MedSailor


----------



## SloopJonB

Panope said:


> logical, practical, or economical factors.


We ARE still talking about sailboats aren't we?


----------



## bobperry

Steve has to be talking about something other than sailboats Jon.


----------



## outbound

Gotten old and very married. But in the past ladies preferred no speed but unfortunately lots of dough. Still had too much fun. I'd scare them away now in a speedo. 
Wondering about Peterson schooners. Only one I ever got to sail had its engine nearly amidships. Accommodations were fore and aft. Guess power went to prop with jack shaft. ? Is that the way they were all done?


----------



## Osprey 26

You from upside down have some hidden upside down revenge.
Like oh I know that fero is better then steel.
BTW who is bat,man guy.


----------



## outbound

Friend did a beautiful job building in ferro.50' ketch. Unfortunately couldn't get boat insured at a reasonable rate. Boat sat for years. Eventually got sold for cost of materials. New owner doesn't care and sails with just liability. 
Given labor is mostly in interior and systems I agree with you Fe makes more sense than ferro. Still think Al makes more sense for most then Fe.


----------



## AlaskaMC

Osprey 26 said:


> You from upside down have some hidden upside down revenge.
> Like oh I know that fero is better then steel.
> BTW who is bat,man guy.


Batman is an incredible world famous comic artist.










Oh, an he has designed a boat or two as well.









Check out his bio.
Robert H Perry Yachts Designers Inc. - Robert H. Perry Bio

And he smokes a cool corn cob pipe and has neat dogs.


----------



## bobperry

Don't forget, amazing guitar player and the part about leaping tall buildings.


----------



## blt2ski

But do not listen to his singing, guaranteed to make you LOSE your hearing! 

At least that is my story, not that I will stick to it mind you.........

marty


----------



## bobperry

Ski:
I flattered. At least you called it "singing".


----------



## MedSailor

bobperry said:


> Don't forget, amazing guitar player and the part about leaping tall buildings.


I like how bob's shadow has a cowboy hat. Spooky!

MedSailor


----------



## Classic30

Bob has his own group of fanboi's!!...  :laugher


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## MedSailor

Classic30 said:


> Bob has his own group of fanboi's!!...  :laugher


It's cool, so does Brent. Just ask him. 

MedSailor


----------



## Dirtyfloats

Brent came over today. 
Spent the afternoon giving me ideas and guidance on the boat. Then we went for an ice cream in the harbour. I Cant imagine having a better boat designer.
He really gets what i am trying to do. Its nice to know that he treats me like a friend and not a customer.

Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


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## smackdaddy

Dirtyfloats said:


> Brent came over today.
> Spent the afternoon giving me ideas and guidance on the boat. Then we went for an ice cream in the harbour. I Cant imagine having a better boat designer.
> He really gets what i am trying to do. Its nice to know that he treats me like a friend and not a customer.
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


That is cool. Good on Brent. Actually, it's what any designer of one-offs should do for their clients.


----------



## outbound

Not only one offs but semi customs and production runs as well. We have had the usual bugs with our new boat. I didn't like supports for hard Bimini. Phil lambert redesigned it. Then had it constructed at his yard. Then shipped to my marina. Then he flew up from Florida to help install it. The broker, josh hodgson, has both spent untold hours educating us to our systems and workin out small bugs. Class acts. That's why they are still in business. 
When we had a production boat- a PSC 34- a call to steve Brody resulted in a answer or part. We bought this boat used. There wasn't a dime in it for steve. 
Yes maybe with the large production builders it's different. But I don't think so as those with out good customer support are at risk of poor referrals and moving up with repeat buyers.


----------



## Jeff_H

Actually, I have had some dealings with Beneteau's service department and it has been amazingly great on each occasion providing information and parts at very reasonable prices (even obscure proprietary parts such as a radiused cherry door from a model that was 12 years out of production). My few dealings with Hunter have been similar but not as stellar. I have not had direct dealings with Catalina so I can't comment. 

Jeff


----------



## bobperry

August 22nd till the 24th is the Perry Rendezvous. We will have up to 50 boats and 200 people there. This year we are having the formal christening ceremony for FRANCIS LEE. Of course we will have bagpipes! I will get to spend time with a lot of owners of my boats. They all seem to be friends and I like that. For certain it is a big ego stroke for me but what the hell, I've worked hard at this. There are few things I like more than being around a group of sailors who's lives are enriched by owning one of my boats. I just love to see people having fun in my boats. Kind of completes the circle.

Had a guy sail up in a Baba 30 and anchor just down the beach from my shack last weekend. His boat looked great and he appeared to be enjoying himself. He was by himself so I did not intrude.


----------



## MedSailor

Dirtyfloats said:


> Brent came over today.
> Spent the afternoon giving me ideas and guidance on the boat. Then we went for an ice cream in the harbour. I Cant imagine having a better boat designer.
> He really gets what i am trying to do. Its nice to know that he treats me like a friend and not a customer.
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


That's great news. For as much as I enjoy piling on at times and giving Brent a hard time, and as much as I am genuinely concerned about the lack of technical design theory that he is willing to show, he does seem to be really great about helping his clients out with their builds. When undertaking such a huge project by oneself I can see that as being a big plus.

How's your boat coming along?? You probably hate this question, but when do you estimate she'll be done?

MedSailor


----------



## bobperry

BTW:
You are all invited to the Perry Rendezvous. I don't care what kind of boat you have. We have one powerboat that comes every year. Maybe they just like the food or the music.

Also:
Mark is going to show up here today in his big tractor truck. I have never met him but I have assured my wife that he is a good guy. He's hopefully spend a couple of days here. I can't wait to see his truck parked in my driveway! I'll take photos.


----------



## djodenda

Thanks for the invitation, Bob, and including us non-Perry boat owners... We have company that weekend, but might try and pull it off sometime. I bet it would be fun.


----------



## djodenda

Wait! That's not right. We will be finishing up a cruise that weekend. Will there be room to drop a hook in the bay and say hello?


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## djodenda

Wait! Questions answered here!

Rendezvous information coming so


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## bobperry

Denda:
Hope to see you there. We get a few non Perry boats each year. Not sure why. Never bothered to ask. It's just a party. Nobody checks design pedigrees. Most people are very happy to show their boats so its a good chance to check other boats out.

I think the opportunity to see FRANCIS LEE up close would be worth the trip.


----------



## djodenda

Just rechecked the schedule.. Northern Century race is that weekend. I'll be sailing with my son this time. Maybe next time!


----------



## bobperry

Denda:
I'm glad to see you have your priorities straight. There will be other Rendezvous.


----------



## djodenda

bobperry said:


> Denda:
> I'm glad to see you have your priorities straight. There will be other Rendezvous.


Yeah.. I was quite confident you would approve.

Maybe I will show up someday on one of your boats. I'd be thinking either a Passport 41 or Amati....


----------



## blt2ski

djodenda said:


> Yeah.. I was quite confident you would approve.
> 
> Maybe I will show up someday on one of your boats. I'd be thinking either a Passport 41 or Amati....


You mean you are going to get rid of the 1d35 in your slip!?!?!?!?:laugher

Oh dear oh me oh my.......

Will be at ludlow the following weekend.........

Marty


----------



## krisscross

What do you guys think of that steel boat: Technical data - Nemo of Sweden


----------



## bobperry

I don't like companionway hatches like that. Of course they are vbery safe but they are also awkward. You come and o from below all the time. I like a boat that makes it easy. Very interesting boat. Odd looking. Four opening ports is not nearly enough for that boat. I can't see what it's like below the DWL. There is nothing about steel that says the boat has to look weird.


----------



## outbound

probably would meet with brent's approval given the pipe for safety lines. However, in a mores serious line seems a good offshore boat.
It's interesting this boat has a small contained cockpit. The most recent practical sailor had an interesting review of cockpits/sterns. Seemed to rip apart the use of wide open cockpits for mom/pops like me in an offshore environment.
thanks for the post - we are off drift and back on steel boats.


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## djodenda

Here's a link to "Hoptoad" which is a steel 62-foot Colvin Schooner that I used to see sailing in the Northern Puget Sound quite a bit.

She's at anchor in Kingston, and look to be in good shape from a casual observation.

She's been for sale for quite a while, and I believe the price has dropped again from the $69K price on Yachtworld..

Curious what you all think of her...

1986 Tom Colvin Pipestrelle Steel Schooner Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


----------



## AlaskaMC

In our boat shopping we have noticed that even quality build steel boats seem to be available at great prices. There is a Waterline 38 that is very new and inexpensive in Seattle right now for how new and beautiful it is.


----------



## Don L

AlaskaMC said:


> There is a Waterline 38 that is very new and inexpensive in Seattle right now for how new and beautiful it is.


That boat has been for sale for years and I've seen it be "sale pending" at least 3 times. So there is an issue.

Not to say I would pause long to get a Waterline 48 if I could afford one!


----------



## krisscross

I agree that separating the companionway from the cockpit is rather awkward but also a great safety feature. I have not been offshore in bad weather very much, but when I was, that companionway opening in the cockpit seemed like a huge liability. There is definitely a trade-off involved when it comes to just about any feature of the boat. Nemo of Sweden seems like a great boat for high latitudes but cruising it in the tropics would likely be a PITA for lack of ventilation if nothing else. And handing margaritas to the skipper at the helm would be a real chore.


----------



## Dirtyfloats

I put my solid lifelines up the other day. 
Welded stainless steel to the stainless steel bulwark pipe. 
Man, it made it so much nicer up on the boat. I worry alot less about hitting the ground now.

Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jaramaz

Dirtyfloats said:


> I put my solid lifelines up the other day.
> Welded stainless steel to the stainless steel bulwark pipe.
> Man, it made it so much nicer up on the boat. I worry alot less about hitting the ground now.
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


Some photos maybe? Interested to see how they look.

/J


----------



## mstern

Dirtyfloats said:


> I put my solid lifelines up the other day.
> Welded stainless steel to the stainless steel bulwark pipe.
> Man, it made it so much nicer up on the boat. I worry alot less about hitting the ground now.
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


Dirt: how high off the deck are your lifelines?


----------



## MedSailor

Dirt. Nice to see that you're making progress. Why stainless though? Why not painted steel to keep the metal types the same?


----------



## bobperry

I met Mark right here, on this thread. I casually invited him to stop by my beach shack if here ever out this way. Last week he had a delivery from Baltimore to Bothell, WA. Then he managed to get his big rig down the very winding hill to my beach shack. He parked the tractor right in my driveway and the trailer at the boat launch. My neighbors loved it. No, really they did. Mark spent two nights here and this morning I got to fulfill a fantasy that I have had since I was 18 years old. I got to ride in a big truck. Mark would not let me drive and nor did I want to. The truck is a wee bit intimidating in its complexity and bulk. But I had fun, fun, fun.



Now we need to plan a trip so I can actually go on the road with Mark for a few days. Mark wants to go sailing but I want to go truckin'.


----------



## AlaskaMC

That is a sweet rig. They are way fun to be sure. A friend of mine is a major adrenaline sports guy with piles of experience in all kinds of adventuring. He once told me while in his truck in the mountains of Colorado that by far the most exciting thing he had ever done was driving trucks over mountain passes in the winter for a living in Colorado. After doing a run with him in the summer I quickly could see why. 

I may be in Seattle now for the Rendezvous. Working on flights and plans now to kill many birds with a single flight so to speak.


----------



## Dirtyfloats

I will try to Post pictures when I get some time on the computer.

The stanchions are 30 inches, and they follow the shear of the boat, So basically, they are anywhere from 35" to 39" off the deck level. averaging about 36" (3feet)

They are made of stainless because I am lazy, and don't want to have to paint the damn things all the time.

The bulwark pipe is also obvioulsy stainless.
I am not in any way concerned with dissimilar metals above the water. 
Only annoying bit is the cost of welding.
That and the bulwark is the only stainless that I was forced to buy new.
Everything else I have found as scrap for cheap.


----------



## bobperry

Alaska:
If you make it to the Rendezvous come up and introduce yourself. I'm the old, grey haired guy with the big smile.


----------



## AlaskaMC

No longer in question! Flight booked and coming your way. Can't wait to get there!


----------



## bobperry

Alaska:
If you want to stay near the Rendezvous your best bet will be in Port Townsend. It's an easy 15 to 20 minutes scenic drive away The Inn at Port Ludlow gets booked up quickly this time of year.


----------



## blt2ski

I've driven a truck that big a couple of times. Really pretty easy. My dump truck is a single axel job. Really not much harder than a crew cab dually pickumup! Probably a LOT harder than a subaru! A subie is looking at the hub caps of these larger rigs! 

My then youngest who was about 3 when I bought my navistar, was listening to the older three who had all had rides in the new BIG truck and were arguing who was going to ride from our house to the yard I kept things in. While the older three were arguing, I see her run into the house, grab the 2nd car seat, start pulling it out of the house, tripping over it while yelling "me wanna a ride, me wanna ride!" guess who got to ride in the truck that time. A fellow in a cement mixer was next to us, looked down at Kara sitting in her car seat smiling had a BIG grin on his face watching her. 

7 forward gears are not much harder to row thru than 5!

Marty


----------



## bobperry

Mark's Volvo truck has ten gears but he can shift it without the clutch. Of course he made it look easy but I'm convinced it is not easy. I think more than the physical act of operating the machine, daunting enough, it is the mental acuity you need to keep all the elements in focus while dealing with "civilian drivers". Mark, "Never trust a turn signal Bob."

But I can play guitar, sing and smoke my pipe at the same time so you never know.


----------



## blt2ski

Shifting without a clutch is actually pretty easy! I do that in my navistar, and my old GM pickup.


----------



## Panope

Dirtyfloats said:


> I put my solid lifelines up the other day.
> Welded stainless steel to the stainless steel bulwark pipe.
> Man, it made it so much nicer up on the boat. I worry alot less about hitting the ground now.
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


I hear ya on the safety while the boat is on the hard. I think if I had a boat with no lifelines I would at least have a provision for temporary solid lines when hauled out.

The first years of my project were accomplished with the boat parked on my lawn. The grass at least looked nice and soft. When I moved to my current home, the boat ended up on a concrete slab so adding lifelines became a priority.

I wonder if you noticed a change in the way your boat "feels" on deck. On Panope, the addition of the tall, solid lifelines made the deck space appear larger - especially the foredeck. I am not sure what is driving this illusion but more than one person who came aboard (after the lifelines were installed) had a similar finding.

I have found the solid lines to be very useful for mounting various items like cleats, seats, liferings etc...

Here are some shots of my set up. I post the photos of my aluminum work with the assumption that most of this stuff could be executed in steel or SS just as easily.

Steve


----------



## mark2gmtrans

I am pretty sure that Bob could drive the truck, and I am fairly sure I can teach him if we have time and a big place to practice. I really enjoyed the time, and got to meet some really nice people. I love the view from Bob's place, and it was a great way to relax and enjoy some down time. I appreciate the invitation and the time you took Bob.


----------



## Dirtyfloats

Panope said:


> I hear ya on the safety while the boat is on the hard. I think if I had a boat with no lifelines I would at least have a provision for temporary solid lines when hauled out.
> 
> The first years of my project were accomplished with the boat parked on my lawn. The grass at least looked nice and soft. When I moved to my current home, the boat ended up on a concrete slab so adding lifelines became a priority.
> 
> I wonder if you noticed a change in the way your boat "feels" on deck. On Panope, the addition of the tall, solid lifelines made the deck space appear larger - especially the foredeck. I am not sure what is driving this illusion but more than one person who came aboard (after the lifelines were installed) had a similar finding.
> 
> I have found the solid lines to be very useful for mounting various items like cleats, seats, liferings etc...
> 
> Here are some shots of my set up. I post the photos of my aluminum work with the assumption that most of this stuff could be executed in steel or SS just as easily.
> 
> Steve
> 
> I tottally agree.
> boat feels way biger on deck.
> Its a great thing.
> 
> I was on a roberts the other day with those little trip lines, and heavily cambered decks, inboard rig, what a nightmare to move around on, even at anchor... Just plain silly.


----------



## krisscross

I drove 18-wheelers for a living in the 80's. Back then the transmissions were really complicated, with at least 24 gears on two or 3 levels, and you had to double clutch to change gears. And if you messed up going up or down the hill, things would get serious very fast. That is why they had so many runaway truck ramps filled with sand on all downhill roads. Today driving big rigs is much easier but it is still a very serious job.


----------



## Bob142

Brent Swain Page 167

"Anyone backing me up on that site, including Coast Guard, were all attacked and accused of being me under an alias. Some instantly began receiving threatening emails."

I have noticed that...

Me Page 301

When a boat has a close encounter with a rocky coast which they have been known to do... A wooden boat or a pretty tupperware seem to last less then 19 minutes while a metal boat will get a dent that may be hard to buff out...Just saying... 

First reply...

Bob:
You are absolutely correct. ( I think you made up the "19 minutes" part though and that hampers your credibility. 19 minutes? Really? Not 23 minutes? Could you please document where you got the 19 minutes from?)

I didn't think that my post on Page 154 put me on anyones side in this Pi$$ing Match...


----------



## smackdaddy

Bob142 said:


> Brent Swain Page 167
> 
> "Anyone backing me up on that site, including Coast Guard, were all attacked and accused of being me under an alias. Some instantly began receiving threatening emails."
> 
> I have noticed that...
> 
> Me Page 301
> 
> When a boat has a close encounter with a rocky coast which they have been known to do... A wooden boat or a pretty tupperware seem to last less then 19 minutes while a metal boat will get a dent that may be hard to buff out...Just saying...
> 
> First reply...
> 
> Bob:
> You are absolutely correct. ( I think you made up the "19 minutes" part though and that hampers your credibility. 19 minutes? Really? Not 23 minutes? Could you please document where you got the 19 minutes from?)
> 
> I didn't think that my post on Page 154 put me on anyones side in this Pi$$ing Match...


Ahm, I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean.


----------



## goat

smackdaddy said:


> Ahm, I have no idea what the above is supposed to mean.


I think it's about time travel, maybe?


----------



## shank32095

" I must maintain this rigid position or all is lost"

http://www.stat.pitt.edu/stoffer/whiteman.gif


----------



## bobperry

I could go for some serious time travel.


----------



## outbound

Hurricane sandy came through and caused a 25+ year old cheribini to leave its mooring. It ended up on a breakwater made of huge granite blocks.. It was left there to pound for the rest of the storm as it was empty. It went down to delrin n.j. and was restored. From what I was told looks fine and back sailing. 
Glass is not as delicate as some would say.


----------



## Brent Swain

I just found a way to clean up this site and make it more relevant to the original subject matter. I just put Bobsmack on my ignore list. It eliminates the childish jeering and leaves the relevant material from those who are more likely to have actual cruising experience. Eliminates the "Little Boy " pictures from the steel boat discussion. Shoulda done that a long time ago. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to weed out the armchair experts, who have no long term cruising experience and no metal boat building or metal boat cruising experience.
Wunnerful!


----------



## Brent Swain

outbound said:


> Hurricane sandy came through and caused a 25+ year old cheribini to leave its mooring. It ended up on a breakwater made of huge granite blocks.. It was left there to pound for the rest of the storm as it was empty. It went down to delrin n.j. and was restored. From what I was told looks fine and back sailing.
> Glass is not as delicate as some would say.


Was that open ocean?What kind of fetch!
Glass is definitely a lot tougher than wood ( dead vegitation|) and a far better boat building material ,but nowhere near as tough as steel.
I have seen a lot of plastic boats which could have survived, had the builder built up the turn of the bilges, where extra weigh costs nothing, in terms of performance.
That could be done in uncored older boats, undergoing a refit.


----------



## shank32095

BS, Say it isn't so. Smack talking smack and taking you out is what makes this forum special. Just tighten up, get some new material, grow a pair and go after smack. Censorship is just Un-American and might be Un-Canadian, not really sure. I got to tell you, your entertainment value way over weighs any short comings you might have as far as sailboat design. Brent, bitter is not better.


----------



## Brent Swain

Steel is by far, the easiest material for a back yard, amateur builder to build a boat out of. My methods have made it even easier. 
If you make a mistake , no other material lets you rejoin things instantly, with 100% strength. 
You don't necessarily need an elaborate cover to build under. 
Tools needed are minimal and cheap.
It is the quickest material to build a boat out of . 
Learning metal work lets you build a lot of otherwise expensive gear yourself . 
It can lead to a lucrative career.
No expensive molds are needed.


----------



## Brent Swain

shank32095 said:


> BS, Say it isn't so. Smack talking smack and taking you out is what makes this forum special. Just tighten up, get some new material, grow a pair and go after smack. Censorship is just Un-American and might be Un-Canadian, not really sure. I got to tell you, your entertainment value way over weighs any short comings you might have as far as sailboat design. Brent, bitter is not better.


I just realized that paying attention to the six year old jeering at you from the street corner only encourages him, just like the yappy little chihuahua. He has lost every argument he has tried to make against me, as my friends have assured me. With absolutely zero steel boat experience and zero long term cruising experience he has absolutely nothing worthwhile to contribute to this debate, only troll type sabotage.
I just put you on my ignore list. Enjoy your company! I'll do the same for anyone who tries to turn this or any other discussion into a childish pissing match, as anyone who prefers info, to childish "gotcha "jeering, should. I invite others to clean up their discussions in the same way.
I'm here to help people with their boat problems, not to do adult day care for infantiles!
Allowing myself to get distracted from the subject, undermines how much I can help people with their boat problems. Infantiles are not worth the time.
I have no intentions of further empowering the saboteurs to wreck the discussion.


----------



## bfloyd4445

Brent, if God had intended steel to be used for boats he would have made it so it would float! Metallic boats have no character and the ambiance of a grain silo while wooden boats have the feel of a well built log home flexing on a stormy day, with fireplace cracking, and the aluring scent of wood. No one enjoys the sent of steel. Your metal thing on the other hand reaks of machine oil, flux, pings and bongs in the wind like the clash of a mace against a steel drum

on the other hand a metal boat is well worth saving with the price of scrap in todays market<smile>


----------



## Dean101

Brent Swain said:


> I just realized that paying attention to the six year old jeering at you from the street corner only encourages him, just like the yappy little chihuahua. He has lost every argument he has tried to make against me, as my friends have assured me. With absolutely zero steel boat experience and zero long term cruising experience he has absolutely nothing worthwhile to contribute to this debate, only troll type sabotage.
> I just put you on my ignore list. Enjoy your company! I'll do the same for anyone who tries to turn this or any other discussion into a childish pissing match, as anyone who prefers info, to childish "gotcha "jeering, should. I invite others to clean up their discussions in the same way.
> I'm here to help people with their boat problems, not to do adult day care for infantiles!
> Allowing myself to get distracted from the subject, undermines how much I can help people with their boat problems. Infantiles are not worth the time.
> I have no intentions of further empowering the saboteurs to wreck the discussion.


I'm very grateful that being on the ignore list of someone like you will not prevent them from contributing to this and other discussions. Feel free to add me to your ignore list also. At least those dogs bark at your face instead of nipping at heels behind your back like you are doing. Did you ignore them before or after you made these remarks? Never mind. I'm pretty sure I already know the answer.


----------



## outbound

Agree there are advantages to solid grp has regards durability and ease of repair. That's why I choose a solid grp hull. Also easier construction. However modern cored hulls made with current high tech materials, pre preg, and baking produce incredibly strong hull for weight. Hence that technique for open water race boats. Say what you want Brent but these boats survive the southern ocean in conditions that would have you turning turtle repetitively. What Brent can't seem to accept is its a continuum. Light is fast. Heavy is slow. 
Carbon pre preg, infused cored,cold molded wood, cored glass with solid below waterline, strip plank, solid glass, then Fe. Sure there are many boats who rank higher or lower than this generalization about materials and poorly designed or executed boats in each. Still in general there is merit in this order. The one material hard to place is Al. So much depends on execution, age and measures taken to prevent electrolysis. Over all seems tougher than glass and lighter. However for the cruiser steel is problematic. In spite of Brent's claims these boats will be slower. Slower means need for more stores and a longer weather window. Shapes are limited by construction technique impending a reasonable sailing polar. Economics on residual value when you are forced to swallow the anchor are poor. Finally the Brent boats don't pass the dinghy test. My heart sings when I look back at my boat from the dinghy regardless what harbor I'm in.
Speaking to the issues Brent - still waiting for a PHRF number or sailing polar or any reliable performance measure beyond a another "story".


----------



## SloopJonB

I asked him a long way back to provide a typical average 24 hour run for one of his boats - like on the run to Hawaii.

I'm still waiting - maybe the boat hasn't made it yet so he doesn't know.


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## mr_f

Apparently most of his boats are stuck on rocks or coral reefs at the moment. As you can imagine, this can greatly reduce average speed.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I just found a way to clean up this site and make it more relevant to the original subject matter. I just put Bobsmack on my ignore list. It eliminates the childish jeering and leaves the relevant material from those who are more likely to have actual cruising experience. Eliminates the "Little Boy " pictures from the steel boat discussion. Shoulda done that a long time ago. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to weed out the armchair experts, who have no long term cruising experience and no metal boat building or metal boat cruising experience.
> Wunnerful!


I don't have one single person on ignore. Never have. I'm not that much of a pansy.

Welcome back Brent. Yahoo a little quiet?


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> Steel is by far, the easiest material for a back yard, amateur builder to build a boat out of. My methods have made it even easier.
> If you make a mistake , no other material lets you rejoin things instantly, with 100% strength.
> You don't necessarily need an elaborate cover to build under.
> Tools needed are minimal and cheap.
> It is the quickest material to build a boat out of .
> Learning metal work lets you build a lot of otherwise expensive gear yourself .
> It can lead to a lucrative career.
> No expensive molds are needed.


Actually, I TOTALLY agree with this. THIS is the biggest, most honest pro list of steel sailboats that I've seen on this thread!

Finally, absolutely the truth from Brent himself! Woohoo!

The only the problem is - this has nothing to do with cruising. This is only for the poor sap that wants to slave away for years in their backyard as an amateur boat builder.

Wouldn't it be so much better to buy a plastic boat for cheap and get out there and have some fun instead of squandering your best years in your own freakin' backyard?


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I just realized that paying attention to the six year old jeering at you from the street corner only encourages him, just like the yappy little chihuahua. He has lost every argument he has tried to make against me, as my friends have assured me. With absolutely zero steel boat experience and zero long term cruising experience he has absolutely nothing worthwhile to contribute to this debate, only troll type sabotage.
> I just put you on my ignore list. Enjoy your company! I'll do the same for anyone who tries to turn this or any other discussion into a childish pissing match, as anyone who prefers info, to childish "gotcha "jeering, should. I invite others to clean up their discussions in the same way.
> I'm here to help people with their boat problems, not to do adult day care for infantiles!
> Allowing myself to get distracted from the subject, undermines how much I can help people with their boat problems. Infantiles are not worth the time.
> I have no intentions of further empowering the saboteurs to wreck the discussion.


I have nothing to add. I just thought this was pure poetry and wanted to save it.

Applause.


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## blt2ski

Smack,

Having reread the quote from Brent, looks like he wants this thread to be an IGNORE thread........

maybe we should run along, considering there is nothing to see or hear here! yep, master Denby would be proud............


----------



## Classic30

Well. Marty.. wouldn't that make this the *largest* Ignore Thread in Sailnet history??

Or, after 5222 mostly on-topic posts, would it instead be the largest-one-with-at-least-some-useful-information-in-it (and lots of pics of BP's yachts)?!?

EDIT: Ignore that.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

Well, I got busy and come back to find BS has decided to do like a lot of politicians do, ignore the truth while loudly proclaiming that those who told the truth are irrelevant liars. Nice job the brent, you ignore the truth a lot it seems. The fact that Bob has all those pretty boats out there cruising safely all over the world means nothing to you. Perhaps you will find the need to ignore me as well, which will just mean that somehwere in the back of your mind there will be a tiny itch that you cannot scratch. That itch will grow and grow as you spend more and more time wondering what the people whom you have placed on ignore are saying.

Are they talking about you now? Haha, I won't tell, but you know it is going to bug you.


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## shank32095

bfloyd4445 said:


> Brent, if God had intended steel to be used for boats he would have made it so it would float! Metallic boats have no character and the ambiance of a grain silo while wooden boats have the feel of a well built log home flexing on a stormy day, with fireplace cracking, and the aluring scent of wood. No one enjoys the sent of steel. Your metal thing on the other hand reaks of machine oil, flux, pings and bongs in the wind like the clash of a mace against a steel drum
> 
> on the other hand a metal boat is well worth saving with the price of scrap in todays market<smile>


Actually my vessel suffers none of the objections you state about steel vessels. I believe there is a place for various materials depending on the intended use. I am sure one could list negative properties of steel, plastic, cement or wood. To each his own but lumping all vessels of a given material into one basket makes little sense. By the way, what kind of boat do you have?


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## blt2ski

SHank,

A LOT of us already have said, ALL the products used to make boats have plus and minus's. The issue is with the "ones" that say X product is the best, and only product to use. I can see some points to steel as brent points out, ie reasonably easy from a U-build standpoint. His designs on the other hand, FUGLY! If your boat in the pic is steel, it appears to be well designed and built. As BP points out, even a work boat can be pretty if properly designed. 

So the going after BS from the steel does not float is one way to attempt, to get BS to say proper issues good and bad about steel. We have ALL asked nicely at some point in time. So far, in reality, the most recent answers are the best ones.....barely.....must be out of rum, so his brain is thinking straight.

marty


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## goboatingnow

bfloyd4445 said:


> Brent, if God had intended steel to be used for boats he would have made it so it would float! Metallic boats have no character and the ambiance of a grain silo while wooden boats have the feel of a well built log home flexing on a stormy day, with fireplace cracking, and the aluring scent of wood. No one enjoys the sent of steel. Your metal thing on the other hand reaks of machine oil, flux, pings and bongs in the wind like the clash of a mace against a steel drum
> 
> on the other hand a metal boat is well worth saving with the price of scrap in todays market<smile>


Fibreglass doesn't float neither !!

If you want to take a log home out into the Atlantic in bad weather. , then let's see how that works out for you.

The building of Wood built boats was abandoned as fast as builders could master other technologies.

Dave


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## outbound

Dave- Think there remains a lot to be said for cold molded wood construction. Strong, light and as much maintenance as grp when done in epoxy with an outside fiber layer. This technique continues to be used in one offs even 100+ feet and power boats. 
Strip plank also makes sense for cruisers. Go to the Covey Island web site. It may open your eyes. This is an active yard. A couple years ago took a motorcycle trip up to Canada with the wife to do the Cabot trail. Stopped off at Lundenburg and did a yard tour as was interested in a Westerman as a possible "last boat". Ended up building the Outbound but the Westerman is a fine craft and fully blue water capable. Fell in love with a "fusion schooner" they were doing. Economics didn't work for me. That boat has since circumnavigated.


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## bobperry

The Perry Rendezvous was this weekend in Port Ludlow. We had around 35 boats and due to the christening party of Kim's FRANCIs LEE we had about 150+ people at one time on the dock! The dock came out fine. I was concerned. The bagpiper was great. Lots of champagne and lots of cake! Somehow I missed out on both. I was busy.

Steve bought his home built alu PANOPE to the Rendezvous. It's not my design but it's a great example of how a home built metal boat can be a work of art. The boat was greatly admired and Steve has some fun showing it off.

It was fun to se my old Two Tonner IRSH ROSE all cleaned up and outfitted fr serious cruising. The owner has had it all over the West Coast up[ to Alaska. Who says an old race boat can't make a great cruising boat? Tell this owner and his wife.

Rick ("Sonadora" from CA) came to the Rendezvous with his wife all the way from Wisconsin. My buddy James came fro Australia to defend his Blind Fold Dinghy Race title. But he came second this year. He really came back for a wedding but it's the week of the Rendezvous so it was convenient for him to come. Always good to see old friends.

Many thanks to all that attended. It's a fun weekend for me. I enjoy having my entire family there. I had to leave early Sunday as I had a music engagement later Sunday.

I'll post some pics after I have decompressed and downloaded some photos.


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## bobperry

Violet was very taken by the bagpiper. I had better be sure to arrange a piper for next year's Rendezvous. It sets a good mood.


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## bobperry

I just went back and read the last three pages of this thread. I've been gone a few days. I am considering putting myself on ignore.


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## smackdaddy

bobperry said:


> Violet was very taken by the bagpiper. I had better be sure to arrange a piper for next year's Rendezvous. It sets a good mood.


I do believe this is the best post in this entire thread. Well done Violet.


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## shank32095

Bob, 
That has to be awesome to get all your clients together for a good time and see the boats you designed. Unfortunately I am a residential contractor and the closest I come is a subdivision HOA meeting which is about as much fun as a Friday night in Ferguson, MO.


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## bobperry

That's very funny Shank!
The Rendezvous is a lot of exhausting fun for me. I am starting to get photos emailed to me and I'll post the ones I like.

I like this one my buddy Boomer took with a wide angle lens.

I like this photo too. I always wanted toi lead a parade but in fact it's just the camera angle. There were people in front of me. We are marching to the pipes, down to the dock for the christening ceremony.
 I think you can tell I was having a good time.


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## bobperry

Kim said he had fun sailing up to the Rendezvous in FRANCIS. He likes it when he passes powerboats. Dieter Loibner from the German YACHT magazine sailed up with Kim . He was impressed and is doing a feature article for the magazine on FRANCIS.

I am unable to delete that duplicate post. Could Jeff or maybe Jon delete that for me please.


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## SloopJonB

Boy, that shot of Frankie really gives the full 62' effect.


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## bobperry

Jon:
I think that shot is enhanced by the lens. It does look like the mother of all bows.


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## shank32095

Bob, The pic of you marching was great, would have been really special had you been wearing a skirt.


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## bobperry

You probably have in mind some floor length flowery thing in chiffon?

Fact is I had two Glengarry's in the car but it was just too hot to wear one.
I was marching. It's impossible to just dawdle along with a bagpiper 15' behind you.


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## blt2ski

You could have at least worn a Kilt! harumph!

marty


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## smackdaddy

At least he has the American Sporran going.


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## bobperry

I have a real, antique sporran hanging in my office but the one I wear is made from hemp and carries:
dog treats
Dog poop sacks
Two corn cob pipes
and when I am lucky some pipe cleaners

My real, antique sporran could not carry that much cargo.


----------



## AlaskaMC

Brent Swain said:


> I just found a way to clean up this site and make it more relevant to the original subject matter. I just put Bobsmack on my ignore list. It eliminates the childish jeering and leaves the relevant material from those who are more likely to have actual cruising experience. Eliminates the "Little Boy " pictures from the steel boat discussion. Shoulda done that a long time ago. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to weed out the armchair experts, who have no long term cruising experience and no metal boat building or metal boat cruising experience.
> Wunnerful!


Good for you Brent. Run from any feedback as a seller of boats and designs. Should make your potential customers run too. Smart man. Falls right in line with your comments on here in the past. Just a point though, you should read the title of the thread. It isn't labeled "Pros of steel sailboats". You may have missed that it was "pros and cons of steel sailboats". Wouldn't hear many of the cons from you now would we?

PS: Hey Bob, missed you at the party last weekend. Couldn't get there on Saturday but still got to meet some of your very satisfied boat owners on Sunday. They all seemed very happy to have a boat designed by you to use for long term cruising. And on that note, I had planned to give you a check so that I could take advantage of your actual experience in our upcoming boat purchase. I will give a call or pm when I am not traveling. Hanging in the Ketchikan airport now. A custom one of yours has made the final list for sure!


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## AlaskaMC

smackdaddy said:


> ]
> Wouldn't it be so much better to buy a plastic boat for cheap and get out there and have some fun instead of squandering your best years in your own freakin' backyard?


For the sake of argument Smack, this is what people say to me about wooden kayaks. Why not just buy a plastic one?

I enjoy the process and end up with a lighter, faster, and pleasing to the eye design. But, most of my friends would hate the sanding, epoxy, varnish, upkeep etc. They should get plastic because they will have more fun. I build wood because I have more fun. Different strokes as they say.

On the sailboat front, welding a whole boat in my yard, building an interior, rigging, deck etc is just making me tired typing it. Can't imaging building one. In fact, if I was to build my own it would likely be glass and wood, but the rest of the process still sounds like a nightmare. So for me, you would be absolutely right. But for a welder and cabinet maker? Maybe it would be fun for them.


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## AlaskaMC

Just caught up with the thread and saw all the pics from Saturday. I am so disappointed that we had to miss and go back out to Northbend that night. Let my hotel in Port Townsend go and missed the Rendezvous. Damn. The pics make it look like a blast and you deserve it for what your designs have done for the people that love them and sail them. 

How much happiness does one boat create in this world? I can't even imagine how much happiness all of your boats have created for so many people. 

Bravo Maestro !


----------



## Panope

As a metal boat user since 1982 (no glass experience), The Perry Rendezvous was a great opportunity to checkout some new (to me) boats. While walking the docks looking at and climbing aboard Bob's boats, some words kept popping in my head: Solid, Substantial, Fit For Purpose, Craftsmanship, Beautiful.

I flew a photographer overhead on Saturday and he snapped a few pictures. Rendezvous boats are moored on the closest dock.










Here's a shot of Panope from a couple weeks ago. I forgot if I mentioned it previously, but most of these boats (Saugeen Witch) are built in steel. Mine is Aluminum.


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## mark2gmtrans

I would have liked to have been at the rendezvous, but I have to work so I can actually afford a boat for next year's event. Beautiful photos, Violet looked like she was having a ball and that grumpy old man didn't look grumpy at all, I guess it's hard not to be happy with so many beautiful sailboats around...

On the way to Georgia now, work is going well. Bob, if you remember the photos I showed you of the blue Kenworth I have that has a blown engine, well that engine is coming out to go to the rebuilder by 15 September, so the next ride we go for will be in that one.

I wish you all a wonderful remainder of the summer sailing season, post those photos, that way at least I can enjoy your voyages haha.


----------



## bobperry

Steve:
Great shots. I'll save that pic you shot from the plane. Your boat got a lot of attention. I'm very glad you made it to the Rendezvous, a little salsa for my chips.

That photo was taken pretty early Saturday. We had boats arrive all day and as late as 7:30 pm. We filled that marina this year with only a couple boats on the hook for a change. We never did kick that powerboat off the outer dock.

MC:
Sorry to have missed you but I had another music gig for Sunday afternoon so I had to get out early. We'll connect soon.

Mark:
I can't do grumpy at the Rendezvous. Impossible. It makes me very happy to see so many people together enjoying the fruits of my design efforts. For me, that's what it's all about. I really like to see my family immersed in my world and proud of what "Buppy" has accomplished over the years. It's not easy to impress your family. I'll take you up on that truck ride when you get back here and we can discuss your new boat adventure.


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## Brent Swain

Friends have said to me " Why would you waste your time arguing with a total egomaniac who responds to a question about metal boats as if it was a question asking him to talk incessantly about himself and how he spent his day. " I am always open to feedback from my clients, which has steadily improved my boats, from the feedback from people who actually own them and do circumnavigations in them, not from those who know nothing about them, or about metal boats in general.
Yes, the question was about metal boats ,not about kiddy pictures, day sailing in an oversized toy, or a fat man playing his guitar. When someone trying to portray himself as a guru( or a politician) gets asked a question about something he knows nothing about, the standard response is to change the subject. Sounds a lot like the standard response here, by those who have no personal experience in cruising in, maintaining, or building metal boats.
Don't get your advice from someone with zero experience in the type of boat you are talking about. (Like Bobsmack.)
James Pronk posted a great post on the origami boats site recently. He said the Catalina he owned, took far more work to get things right ( as it was a stock abortion, built as poorly as one can imagine), than it would have taken to build a brentboat.The time he took to repair an older wooden boat was as much as it would take to build 2 brentboats. At the end of each project he still didn't have as good a boat as he would had he spent less time building a brentboat, his next boat.


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## bobperry

BS: You do such a good job of making yourself look like an idiot I think I'll just stand back and let you make a fool of yourself.


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## bobperry

We have been having a lot of fun with the new web site. Check it out. I added some Chinese translations with the help of my Taiwan buddy, Wayne Shen.


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## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I am always open to feedback from my clients, which has steadily improved my boats, from the feedback from people who actually own them and do circumnavigations in them, not from those who know nothing about them, or about metal boats in general.


Translation - "You have to agree with me and pay me money before I'll listen to you."

Good luck with that.



Brent Swain said:


> James Pronk posted a great post on the origami boats site recently. He said the Catalina he owned, took far more work to get things right ( as it was a stock abortion, built as poorly as one can imagine), than it would have taken to build a brentboat.The time he took to repair an older wooden boat was as much as it would take to build 2 brentboats. At the end of each project he still didn't have as good a boat as he would had he spent less time building a brentboat, his next boat.


Yeah I saw that. He also said he has a bunch of bits and pieces of his future BS yacht laying around - but instead of finishing it, he's decided to buy 5 other production boats in succession (the Catalina being #5) _*so he and his family can actually sail instead of being stuck in a field somewhere welding for years.*_

Smart man.

Next.


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## bobperry

I think BS was feeling very inadequate tonight. He should. When he goes to the personal attacks you know he has no substantive argument left. I'm feeling pretty damn good tonight. Rasputin is here from Alabama. "Rasputin" is is Sailing Anarchy name. He does all my 3D modelling for me. He looks like he could be my brother, 6'3", same goatee. But he does talk funny. He is truly amazing at 3D modelling. We go to Jim Bett's yard tomorrow to discuss a new, fabulous titanium project. This will be fun. Jody aka Rasputin, is the best.


----------



## AlaskaMC

Brent Swain said:


> Friends have said to me " Why would you waste your time arguing with a total egomaniac who responds to a question about metal boats as if it was a question asking him to talk incessantly about himself and how he spent his day. " I am always open to feedback from my clients, which has steadily improved my boats, from the feedback from people who actually own them and do circumnavigations in them, not from those who know nothing about them, or about metal boats in general.
> Yes, the question was about metal boats ,not about kiddy pictures, day sailing in an oversized toy, or a fat man playing his guitar. When someone trying to portray himself as a guru( or a politician) gets asked a question about something he knows nothing about, the standard response is to change the subject.


So now you are continuing to attack people you have on ignore? You are just a plain coward in addition to everything else that has been said. Pitiful and sad 

You are one of those people that shouldn't be allowed near a computer or the internet for your own good. I WOULD purchase a steel boat given where I live, but your attitude and behavior on this thread would send me anywhere but to you. You have been asked direct questions repeatedly that you ignore, who is it that doesn't have answers? I have never seen Bob or Smack ignore a question (or challenge for that matter). Why does this seem like an old anchor thread with someone that destroyed their business' reputation for a while by attacking others without answering direct questions with the truth. Oh never mind, because it looks exactly like that.


----------



## Don L

why hasn't the title of this thread been changed???????????


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## shank32095

Brent Swain said:


> Friends have said to me " Why would you waste your time arguing with a total egomaniac who responds to a question about metal boats as if it was a question asking him to talk incessantly about himself and how he spent his day. " I am always open to feedback from my clients, which has steadily improved my boats, from the feedback from people who actually own them and do circumnavigations in them, not from those who know nothing about them, or about metal boats in general.
> Yes, the question was about metal boats ,not about kiddy pictures, day sailing in an oversized toy, or a fat man playing his guitar. When someone trying to portray himself as a guru( or a politician) gets asked a question about something he knows nothing about, the standard response is to change the subject. Sounds a lot like the standard response here, by those who have no personal experience in cruising in, maintaining, or building metal boats.
> Don't get your advice from someone with zero experience in the type of boat you are talking about. (Like Bobsmack.)
> James Pronk posted a great post on the origami boats site recently. He said the Catalina he owned, took far more work to get things right ( as it was a stock abortion, built as poorly as one can imagine), than it would have taken to build a brentboat.The time he took to repair an older wooden boat was as much as it would take to build 2 brentboats. At the end of each project he still didn't have as good a boat as he would had he spent less time building a brentboat, his next boat.


Brent,

Were you insecure, bitter, full of BS when you were a child or did this happen to you later in life as a result of some painful personal experience? In any case it might serve you well to seek out some professional help to correct this bitterness problem. Reread the above post you wrote and really focus on all the negative energy you spout.
Should it be any surprise to you when you receive the same in return from 95% of the folks on this forum? Just lighten up dude.

Here is the first therapy session from Bob D. free of charge:

I ain't lookin' to compete with you
Beat or cheat or mistreat you
Simplify you, classify you
Deny, defy or crucify you
All I really want to do
Is, baby, be friends with you.

No, and I ain't lookin' to fight with you
Frighten you or tighten you
Drag you down or drain you down
Chain you down or bring you down
All I really want to do
Is, baby, be friends with you.

I ain't lookin' to block you up
Shock or knock or lock you up
Analyze you, categorize you
Finalize you or advertise you
All I really want to do
Is, baby, be friends with you.

I don't want to straight-face you
Race or chase you, track or trace you
Or disgrace you or displace you
Or define you or confine you
All I really want to do
Is, baby, be friends with you.

I don't want to meet your kin
Make you spin or do you in
Or select you or dissect you
Or inspect you or reject you
All I really want to do
Is, baby, be friends with you.

I don't want to fake you out
Take or shake or forsake you out
I ain't lookin' for you to feel like me
See like me or be like me
All I really want to do
Is, baby, be friends with you.


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## MedSailor

A titanium boat!!?? Where is she to be built? Russia? What metal would you "zinc" her with? 

Last question: since titanium is stronger and lighter (ie faster) than steel would you expect that, in a collision, she would cleave a Brentboat in twain while sailing on a plane? 

Medsailor


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## bobperry

Titanium boat to be built in Anacortes, Wa. by Beets Enterprises about 45 minutes from my shack and a very, very nice drive through farm fields. Jim Betts is an old friend of mine and an amazing builder of metal and composite boats. A true artist. No zincs needed. It's a big catamaran so we will just treat BS boats like stationary objects so no worries about hitting them.


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## MedSailor

Being built in my town eh? I may have to go check it out.


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## bobperry

Med:
The client's rep has now had one face to face meeting with Jim Betts. It might be a little bit early to go down to he shop expecting to see a boat under construction. Maybe wait until some money has changed hands, at least. This is not welding a boat together in a field. Projects like this are complex with lot of details to be nailed down prior to the beginning of construction. Thursday's meeting was one initial step in a series of many.


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## SloopJonB

Why Titanium? Sounds cool as hell but there must be some specific reasons for the heavy added cost and difficulty of construction.


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## bobperry

Good question Jon but the answer is that same old answer I have to give over and over here,,,,*because the client wants it!* The client has a lot of experience with these big commercial cats and he has built them out of GRP and alu. They are rigorously inspected by the Coast Guard and have to be in full structural nick at all times. Due to the fact they are sailed on and off the beach the bottoms get a lot of abrasion and hard wear. The client's hope is that Titanium will solve his problem for wear and tear while avoiding the corrosive elements of alu boats.

Does it make any sense to do my rowboat in titanium? No, I don't think so. It will be heavier and because the skins will be thinner it will be harder to build fair and keep fair. But we can use it to test some welding techniques and as a test project to make sure everyone is confident of the way ahead.

We want light, fast and durable. The cat has to be light so it will be fast. Cheap is not part of the equation at this level. If all goes according to plan the "cheap" will gradually present itself during the upkeep phases.


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## Brent Swain

I have 2 houses already!
I have all the small stainless steel parts made for a Brent Swain 36. All the decks are cut out, rudder is built, more then half of the lead is collected. I have one of the two keels cut out and ready to put together.
I also have a Catalina 27 that my family and I have spent most of the summer sailing on Georgian Bay. I know what it takes to rebuild someone else's old production boat. They are cheep for a reason, because most of them are junk. The amount of time I have put into fixing up old production boats, I could have built a Brent Boat. The amount of time I put into rebuilding a 32' wooden boat I could have built 2 Brent boats!
This Catalina is the 5th boat I have owned and the building flaws are unbelievable, I hope this boat was slapped together on a Friday and finished out on a Monday, and they didn't build all their boats like this one!
I have been looking at cheep boats now with the thought to sail it for a year then strip it out and use the parts for my Brent boat. I have an offer on a 35' 1970s floating condo that has been upgraded and upgraded. It has 6 self trailing winches, over 400' of anchor chain and a beautiful mast and sails.It also has a deck and hull that is soaking wet!
Comparing this boat to one of Brent's is like comparing a 1985 dodge caravan to a Toyota land cruiser.

This was posted on the origamiboats site by tool and die maker James Pronk ( who has a room full of trophies for his metal working skills)

Dont get your boat shoping advice from anyone who would buy a Catalina ( or a Hunter) .Such choices are solid evidence of their naivety.


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> I have 2 houses already!
> I have all the small stainless steel parts made for a Brent Swain 36. All the decks are cut out, rudder is built, more then half of the lead is collected. I have one of the two keels cut out and ready to put together.
> I also have a Catalina 27 that my family and I have spent most of the summer sailing on Georgian Bay. I know what it takes to rebuild someone else's old production boat. They are cheep for a reason, because most of them are junk. The amount of time I have put into fixing up old production boats, I could have built a Brent Boat. The amount of time I put into rebuilding a 32' wooden boat I could have built 2 Brent boats!
> This Catalina is the 5th boat I have owned and the building flaws are unbelievable, I hope this boat was slapped together on a Friday and finished out on a Monday, and they didn't build all their boats like this one!
> I have been looking at cheep boats now with the thought to sail it for a year then strip it out and use the parts for my Brent boat. I have an offer on a 35' 1970s floating condo that has been upgraded and upgraded. It has 6 self trailing winches, over 400' of anchor chain and a beautiful mast and sails.It also has a deck and hull that is soaking wet!
> Comparing this boat to one of Brent's is like comparing a 1985 dodge caravan to a Toyota land cruiser.
> 
> This was posted on the origamiboats site by tool and die maker James Pronk ( who has a room full of trophies for his metal working skills)
> 
> Dont get your boat shoping advice from anyone who would buy a Catalina ( or a Hunter) .Such choices are solid evidence of their naivety.


Heh-heh. I thought you were ignoring me Brentmeister!

Thanks for posting that. It proves the fact that I'm honest and you're not.

As I (and he) said, Pronkster has BS parts lying all over his homestead, yet has been through 5 other production boats (including a C27) in the mean time - JUST so his family can actually get out and sail a bit while his BS parts continue to rust. And this is a dude _with trophies for his metal working skills_ - and he STILL can't finish one of BS' boats!?!?!?? So you think you can Good Cruiser Wannabe?

In any case, who on earth would really want to "re-build" a C27. They are freakin' weekenders!!...that you can buy for $2K!!...a FRACTION of what you'll pay for JUST THE STEEL for a BS yacht!!

So as always it depends on what you're shopping for. If you want to be stuck on land for years and years like Pronkster, build a BS yacht....then spend even more money on production boats to sail a little in the mean time because your BS yacht is just too much of a pain in the ass to actually ever finish (as we've seen over and over in this thread with actual examples of rusting hulks for sale).

Otherwise, buy a very affordable production boat and go sailing...like Pronkster.

Next.


----------



## bobperry

Smackers:
I think the "ignore" function on the BS computer is on the fritz.
More BS from BS. It never ends.


----------



## outbound

Brent going after smack by name calling is just low. Please go after me and my boat. Or Hannah2 or Kim. I'm sure they like me would feel it would elevate their standing. If you recall the original question was the pro/con of steel boats. I explained to you that after looking at Fe, Al, composite wood, solid and cored glass or other fiber why I made my choice. Hannah2 choose Al. I think Kim choose cored glass I think. I know their boats ( like mine) are beautiful, fast and strong. What you did is like calling a baby ugly. I try to be a gentleman so won't tell you looking at the lines of your boats I would expect them to be slow and the pictures suggest they are ugly.
By the way I've been on hunters designed by cheribini, cheribinis, swans, hinckleys and other glass boats older than than the first Brent boat you ever built. No rust, no thinned plate and they are still crossing oceans.. Don't you realize the useful service life of a glass boat with decent maintenance seems infinite. This is one of the failings of steel. Hence the rapid depreciation. Sure with glass boats the METAL bits fail and need replacement but the hull remains sound. If there was no metal there would be no need for zincs.
Happy diving


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## SloopJonB

Fanaticism is a strange, depressing mindset, no matter the subject of said fanaticism.


----------



## bobperry

How right you are Jon.

Tomorrow Olaf Hart will be here. He;'s a fellow I met on SAILING ANARCHY. He's a doctor from Tasmania. He's coming by with his wife for the evening and I'll do my very best with some beef short ribs in a wine sauce. For the past two nights I have had Rasputin aka Jody here. Jody is from Alabama and I met him also on SAILING ANARCHY. Jody is responsible for all that amazing 3D modelling work I use in my design projects. I've been to N. Carolina and met Jody before but this time he came to the shack. My poor wife is used to it now. She married an Australian and we always welcome strangers at the door. I am very lucky to have such a wide range of good friends who appreciate my work. I like the way Jody out it when he said, "I have finally made the trip to Mecca." I made him salmon, pasta and asparagus on Thursday night and Swiss steak with smashed spuds, and cauliflower last night. We eat very well here in Mecca. Tomorrow night I'll do the beef short ribs in a wine sauce, corn, smashed spuds and brocolli. I suppose I could be angry, jealous and bitter like BS but I don't have that kind of vitriol or energy, not to mention the motivation. I'll save my energy for my cooking. Life is best enjoyed.


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## mark2gmtrans

Bob's cooking is worth the trip to mecca, and even better Bob's shack is not in mecca, instead it is in a beautiful and safe place. Conveniently located on the ocean, with great views, and Bob's gracious wife.

Brent never seems to have anyone post anything positive about having met him, I am kind of wondering if Brent really exists, or perhaps he is just the product of an evil AI that plagues sailnet and other places with rude comments and photos of unfinished ugly boats...

I am not a happy camper today, my co-driver and I are stuck taking some time off in Arkansas, since we are on the way to Pryor, OK in the middle of "not near the ocean land". It would have been much better to have had the weekend off near the ocean, gotten in some fishing and maybe a boat ride.

Bob, how is the fishing lately?


----------



## SloopJonB

Winston Churchill, "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject".

Few people have ever had better command of the English language.


----------



## shank32095

SloopJonB said:


> Winston Churchill, "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject".
> 
> I would guess we all suffer that from time to time but a fanatic must maintain his rigid position or all is lost.


----------



## bobperry

Mark:
It's just after 5 am here now. It's dark. The lights are on in my buddies carport. I can see him rigging up his fishing gear. He's all excited after catching the first salmon of he year off the beach yesterday, nice Silver about 5 lbs.. I got zippo yesterday but I'll be out there this morning. Problem is I still have my spring and summer 6 lb. test trout line on. If I hook a salmon I'm toast.

Thanks for the kind words on my cooking. I try hard but I don't have that natural gift for it that makes someone a really great cook.

I don't mind the "Mecca" reference. I laugh it off. I know it's meant as a sign of respect and I gracefully accept that. Besides, it's always said in a sarcastic tone and we have a good chuckle.

There have been a couple posters here who know BS and say what a good guy he is. I suspect that so long as you agree with everything he says he's a fine chap on the surface. He is not someone I would ever choose to be around. I enjoy a good, rollicking debate with people who can put up a strong, cogent argument without devolving into shallow personal attacks. He seems to be unstable.


----------



## bobperry

Here's a video that is testimony to the longevity of GRP boats. These old boats are pristine.

YACHT Modern Classics 2013 ? der Film - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin


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## blt2ski

So that is why it is so quiet here in Ludlow at the moment. Bob's band is not playing here this weekend! bummer, missed it by a weekend too late.

Only wish I could have gotten the boat here. Engine would not run more than 15-20 min then it shut down. I think I have it figured out why, it is made of steel and iron! yep, that has to be it, wood or glass or what ever would have stayed running........LOLOL

In actuality, probably bad diesel, or junk in the tank or?!?!?!?!

As long as it will run long enough, or I have a breeze to sail to shilshoal next sunday for the BOOBIE race, all is good! if any of you esteemed folks would liek to help, click the link, help me cheat my way to winning by buying a bouy! Oh, if you put a name in honor of, or memory of to someone with breast cancer, I ll put that person name on the main sail......

Marty


----------



## bubb2

Brent Swain said:


> I also have a Catalina 27 that my family and I have spent most of the summer sailing on Georgian Bay.
> 
> Dont get your boat shoping advice from anyone who would buy a Catalina ( or a Hunter) .Such choices are solid evidence of their naivety.


Good to know. I will keep that in mind when reading your posts.


----------



## shank32095

Brent Swain said:


> I have 2 houses already!
> I have all the small stainless steel parts made for a Brent Swain 36. All the decks are cut out, rudder is built, more then half of the lead is collected. I have one of the two keels cut out and ready to put together.
> I also have a Catalina 27 that my family and I have spent most of the summer sailing on Georgian Bay. I know what it takes to rebuild someone else's old production boat. They are cheep for a reason, because most of them are junk. The amount of time I have put into fixing up old production boats, I could have built a Brent Boat. The amount of time I put into rebuilding a 32' wooden boat I could have built 2 Brent boats!
> This Catalina is the 5th boat I have owned and the building flaws are unbelievable, I hope this boat was slapped together on a Friday and finished out on a Monday, and they didn't build all their boats like this one!
> I have been looking at cheep boats now with the thought to sail it for a year then strip it out and use the parts for my Brent boat. I have an offer on a 35' 1970s floating condo that has been upgraded and upgraded. It has 6 self trailing winches, over 400' of anchor chain and a beautiful mast and sails.It also has a deck and hull that is soaking wet!
> Comparing this boat to one of Brent's is like comparing a 1985 dodge caravan to a Toyota land cruiser.
> 
> This was posted on the origamiboats site by tool and die maker James Pronk ( who has a room full of trophies for his metal working skills)
> 
> Dont get your boat shoping advice from anyone who would buy a Catalina ( or a Hunter) .Such choices are solid evidence of their naivety.


Is it just me ? When I read posts and quotes from BS and his brotherhood they all seem to have in common an underlying negativity and bitterness. Doesn't seem like a real fun group to hang with. They seem to also share the same grammar and spelling errors? Might all this insecurity and instability be due to a lack of education? Not really concerned one way or another but BS is one strange cat for sure.


----------



## Bob142

Mark2gmtrans

Brent never seems to have anyone post anything positive about having met him, I am kind of wondering if Brent really exists, or perhaps he is just the product of an evil AI that plagues sailnet and other places with rude comments and photos of unfinished ugly boats...


Yes I have met the man...and no I didn't find him to be unstable,bitter,or a rum drinking alcoholic...But unless any of you good people know of a pi$$ing match that has a prize...then please leave me out of it...


----------



## Brent Swain

This was one of the best posts made on origamiboats, a while back. Pretty much sums things up, very well.

---In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote :

Regardless of what material Bob likes or dislikes. We need to dig
deeper into our emotional reasons why we do what we do. The arguments
for and against steel have been settled have been done over a million
times. Advocates of each think they have the battle won. Now back to
the emotion....

Simply put most dreamers and can do types simply dont have the money
to engage a NA to design or even purchase a hull advocated by Bob
fullstop. I cant even recall when i last saw one of these hitech
hulls in Reunion, Capetown, Chrismas Islands, or wherever your
favourite remote cruising ground is. Yet i see plenty boats with
people who only have the basic means to deliver their dreams. I
always marvel that they have been on the water for years and some are
on third and fourth circumnavigations. Hey whats all that noise, its
six in the morning, head out of the hatch, JeeeeeSUS what the hell
its a hitech aircraft carrier French hull with maybe 12 crew. MMMMMM
formalities out of they way, Oh you only staying one day "we in a
hurry because the owner has to be back in France to run his dot com
business and is only on this one leg". This is the typical routine
for these high pressure types with their hitech boats, and surely
this is not the lifestyle or cruising style that most who build boats
or scrape and save dream about. To most the boat is an means to an
end, and so long as it meets the basic survival criteria it will do.
By enlarge metal boats feature heavy in this thinking. Just like the
vast majority drive everyday automobiles, only a minority of archair
warriors dream about Porsches knowing full well they will never use
it to its full capability or can hardly afford it, and is beyond the
role of basic transportation. If you are one of these dreamers you
will never get away, because your funds will be totally exhausted,
with cost overruns, and technical developements on the fly taking
this hitech approach. When the hull cracks are you going to fly the
builder and his crew out to Del Fuego to advise whether you should
continue in your boat or charter the Antinov to fly your hull home
for repairs? With due respect to Bob, you only have to be in Aukland
one or twice to see the reality of this situation, the quotes of $30K
seem to be reasonable for insurance damage on some minor mooring
incidents. The owners dont care, they fly home while the hull dries
out. Something the designers of these laminates have not addressed
regardless of kevlar or dyneema. This kind of disaster would destroy
most peoples cruising plans, so steel under these circumstance makes
logical sense. Its wrong of coarse for Bob, this is just part of the
game of hitech, you gotta have pain for gain Bob?? Even if it is
wrong on the Silicon Graphics workstation and finite element analysis
version 23, steel users dont give a damm, something some people
refuse to acknowledge.

What I largely see is a low tech fleet of slow(relatively) heavy
plastic, steel and ferro. Simply most cant afford the "ideal" boat,
and even if they could afford it could not spare the time for long
term cruising. I see time and time again the Techno Wizard boats on
the milk run from San Diego finnishing in Aukland, and low and behold
they fly home and get the crew to deliver the boat home. Not what
most long term cruisers are thinking about, the horizon will always
be there for them. Another fact is simply that the vast majority of
yachts go nowhere, the more hitech the boat is the faster you will
sail and probably you more likely to go nowhere. Very few of these
boats are really thought out well let alone be designed by somebody
who has actually cruised. This assumes most who build metal boats
want to cruise. Most others will be stuck in the marina with the
owners on the bar stool, saying see my miracle 99 overthere its built
out of fritanium fudge and its the best thing since sliced bread, i
bought it for cruising but my wife hates boats and prefers her
friends at the country club or the Newport Yacht club. It seems only
the affluent have the money to buy these boats, so presumably they
wont have the time to cruise.
It seems the vast majority of the hitech fleet fall into this
category and simply have a arrogant diposition and laugh at people
who happily cruise for years on 32 foot boats or anything that did
not cost a million. Considering that a hitech trailer sailor will
cost more than most steel boats, one wonders how logical it can be
that small hitech uncapable boat costs more than the average steel do
anything cruiser.

My personal view is that those hitech junkies they have long lost
the will to dream or be captured by romantic ideals. Unfortunately
carbon fibre and fudgy cores dont figure in this the romantic lines
of many cruisers dreams. I think most people who have practical
common sense will look at steel or old heavy plastic, those that cant
afford the classic plastic opt for building and most times its steel.
Its totally wrong to call these people fools and shoot them down with
unproven techno babble. Because simply at the end of the day
anecdotal evidence is in their favour. Its amazing occurence if some
el cheapo Beneteau which a kid can stick a screwdrive through does a
circumnavigation, yet the numerous steel hulls from 26 and up rarely
get a mention. It always amuses me that in the usa where most boats
are plastic and the huge media bias against anything economical and
under 40 feet i see sometimes more small cruisers and steel cruisers
in most ports. Someone is certainly missing the boat. The bias
towards production plastic boats and 44 foot plus is clearly
evident. Yet outside this unreality the evidence is exactly
opposite. So one really has to wonderS who is fooling who. I am
sorry to say Bob your reasoning is not part of common cruising
folklore and dreams, you need to work on some romantic cruising story
books featuring hitech, or start the Asmovian boat group where
members can determine if its shorter too Tahiti through a black
carbon fibre hole or whether the dynamics of H2O surface tension will
get your there without fixing or finding wormholes in the laminate.

SO what i am saying is that its nice being modern and technically
aware, but the boat hull is only about 1% of the total pie, and to
simply focus on the material when 99 other elements have to be
considered is wrong. If building in steel saves you money, time and
does the job who really cares about those other things. Just like
most of us in our daily lives know the space program is good for us
long term, we dont contemplate that the space shuttle tiles will be
on our keel in the future. We roof our houses in clay and use lead in
our keels. The sad fact is that regardless of how good these
materials are, there are only probably less than 5 builders in the
world who can do the kind of boats the Bob advocates.

Since this group is about people interested in building these kind
of simple egalitarian boats, i thought i would focus on these ideals,
and strengths of the philosophy of the designers and the people who
dare to dream and dont play the consumer orientated childish snobbery
games of life.The final comments is that there more web pages on
steel boats and cruising than hitech laminates and hitech boats, that
should tell you something.

Will

One name has been changed to protect the innocent and target the guilty.


----------



## MedSailor

Brent Swain said:


> This was one of the best posts made on origamiboats, a while back. Pretty much sums things up, very well.
> 
> ---In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote :
> 
> Regardless of what material Bob likes or dislikes. We need to dig
> deeper into our emotional reasons why we do what we do. The arguments
> for and against steel have been settled have been done over a million
> times. Advocates of each think they have the battle won. Now back to
> the emotion....
> 
> Simply put most dreamers and can do types simply dont have the money
> to engage a NA to design or even purchase a hull advocated by Bob
> fullstop.* I cant even recall when i last saw one of these hitech
> hulls in Reunion, Capetown, Chrismas Islands,* or wherever your
> favourite remote cruising ground is.


Ummm.... so all the boats in Capetown and Reunion Island are steel and lowtech now??

Reunion:









Capetown:

















South Georgia? Sure, maybe they're all metal down there, but not in the 3 places he's named. Fiberglass does go there and is plenty suitable for the task if it suits the owner.

His rant about hitech [sic] boats doesn't make any sense to me either. Is a Tyana 37 a hightech boat? It's a perry boat, and they're out there making the dream happen....

MedSailor


----------



## outbound

Gentleman 2 slips down is a retired union plumber. When he was a grunt in nam he promised himself he get a new sail boat and do blue water if he survived. He saved for 30+ years and bought a perry boat- a V 42. He's been back and forth to a the bvi' s several times. He has tens of thousands of miles under his keel on a GRP Perry boat. I've meet several of the owners of my sisterships. Most are self employed or were. Most saved for decades to end up with their outbounds. Although comfortable they are not the trust baby crowd. Virtually all do blue water. Most recent one was launched in China and sailed home by a couple and their young kids. Home is Oz. Virtually all are sailed by a couple. Ones I know do most if not all their boat maintenance not hired crew. Brent believe what you want. Please don't let reality get in the way.


----------



## shank32095

Brent, 
By and large pretty much everything you know and believe is wrong. In your infinite entitlement universe wisdom, anyone who achieves wealth and enjoys the fruits of success are somehow not worthy to behold this dream of which you speak. What a bunch of BS. Just like surfing, get in the water no matter how big the surf is or how beat up a board you ride. You imply that only true cruising sailors select your ugly little boats made of recycled trash. You need to get a grip dude and depart that fantasy world where you apparently reside. There are always going to be folks who prefer and can afford top notch stuff as well as the folks that hire you and don't really care about anything but cost and have plenty of time on their hands. I am cool with it all as long as people get on the water. I guess one could debate how one of your boats might be an unwise investment in time and money. Maybe debate how exciting it is to sail a pocket rocket as opposed to a BS Boat. A good one would be trying to convince my beautiful Brazilian wife that we were going to buy and live on a Brent Boat,LOL! But seriously why do we need to go there. You have continually had your azz handed to you on this forum so why not lighten up, stop poor mouthing and break free from those demons that have you by the cojones.


----------



## bobperry

"Brent, 
By and large pretty much everything you know and believe is wrong."

Boy Shanker. You are one subtle guy. Are you Australian by any chance?


----------



## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> BS: You do such a good job of making yourself look like an idiot I think I'll just stand back and let you make a fool of yourself.


Bob why don't you cut the crap and admit the truth? You have lots of respect for his ability and only beat up on him because you feel threatened.

I am nobody in the sailing world and as such I can sit back and look at both of you objectively. While I have great respect for the pioneering innovations you have made in the industry I am also smart enough to recognize the potential in others to do the same.


----------



## shank32095

I'm Irish Bob, Maybe somewhat similar.


----------



## shank32095

bfloyd4445 said:


> Bob why don't you cut the crap and admit the truth? You have lots of respect for his ability and only beat up on him because you feel threatened.
> 
> I am nobody in the sailing world and as such I can sit back and look at both of you objectively. While I have great respect for the pioneering innovations you have made in the industry I am also smart enough to recognize the potential in others to do the same.


I am rather good with analogies but this post is so insane that it leaves my mind totally blank but I will give it a shot. B. Perry & BS maybe like Bin Laden & Mother Teresa or Ben Franklin & Guber on Andy of Mayberry.


----------



## bobperry

45:
I talk to my sailing friends all the time. If I mention BS they say, "Who, I've never heard of him." No, not threatened but I'm sure BS will appreciate your effort.

You might check out my web site. My work output is very different from the BS output. One is not "better" than the other but they are VERY different. I like all kinds of boats. I have done steel boats for home builders. I have done all carbon boats baked in an oven. Do not be so stupid as to try and fit me in one of your little boxes.

Jeezus Shank, will you please speak English?


----------



## MedSailor

Since BS mentioned putting bob and smack on ignore, I thought I'd try something for grins. If you put both bob and BS on ignore the results are kind of fun. Basically the thread reads like this:


POSTER: Hey Bob, nice boat!

POSTER: Brent, you're an idiot.

POSTER: Wow, nice boat Bob!

POSTER: Brent, you're an idiot.

POSTER: I've had good results with my brent boat, it's worked well for my niche lifestyle.

POSTER: Nice boat bob!

POSTER: Brent, you're an idiot.

POSTER: I am one of the many normal people who enjoy fiberglass boats, but see the merits of steel boats. What's the big deal?

POSTER: Brent you're an idiot. 

POSTER: I am here to tell all that the teachings of the great BS are true! Want some Kool-Aid? 

POSTER: I like bob boats and lots of other glass boats too.

POSTER: I'm building a brent boat and he's been really helpful to me, you guys are too hard on him.

POSTER: Brent, you're an idiot.

POSTER: Ummm.... That looks yummy bob, care to post the recipe?


MedSailor  

PS That was way more fun to write than it should have been.


----------



## bobperry

Med:
I tried so hard.
There were so many steps to this recipe my brain was burning.
The good news is,,,,my wife liked it.
I thought it was food.
When you work so hard n a dish you expect amazing results.
Not amazing.
Adequate.

I do try hard to make nice dinners. I bat about .687 My own standards are very high.

Like my boats. I try very hard to hit the bulls eye every time.
I think I bat around 812.7365


----------



## smackdaddy

Brent Swain said:


> This was one of the best posts made on origamiboats, a while back. Pretty much sums things up, very well.
> 
> ---In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote :
> 
> Regardless of what material Brent likes or dislikes. We need to dig
> deeper into our emotional reasons why we do what we do. The arguments
> for and against plastic have been done over a million
> times. Advocates of each think they have the battle won. Now back to
> the emotion....
> 
> Simply put most dreamers and cruising types simply dont have the money
> to engage a NA to design and much less the money AND time to build a steel hull advocated by Brent
> fullstop. I cant even recall when i last saw one of BS'
> hulls in Reunion, Capetown, Chrismas Islands, or wherever your
> favourite near OR remote cruising ground is. Yet i see plenty of plastic boats with
> people who only have the basic means to deliver their dreams. I
> always marvel that they have been on the water for years and some are
> on third and fourth circumnavigations.
> 
> To most the boat is an means to an
> end, and so long as it meets the basic survival criteria it will do.
> By enlarge plastic boats feature heavy in this thinking. Just like the
> vast majority drive everyday automobiles, only a minority of archair
> warriors dream about homemade yard sculptures with keels knowing full well they will never use it to its full capability or can hardly afford it, and is beyond the
> role of basic transportation. If you are one of these steel-build dreamers you
> will never get away, because your funds will be totally exhausted,
> with cost overruns, and untold years of your life building something the purveyor said would be easy and quick but is completely the opposite.
> 
> This kind of disaster would destroy
> most peoples cruising plans, so plastic under these circumstance makes
> logical sense. Its wrong of coarse for Brent, this is just part of the
> game of steel, you gotta have pain for gain Brent?? Even if it is
> wrong on the back of the napkin and grocery store scale
> version 23, BS dont give a damm, something he
> refuses to acknowledge because he's not good with math.
> 
> What I largely see is a low tech fleet of slow steel and ferro, then comparatively super-fast plastic. Simply most cant afford the "ideal" boat,
> and even if they could afford it could not spare the time for long
> term cruising.
> 
> This assumes most who build metal boats
> want to cruise. But, of course, they will be stuck in their backyard building said metal boat. It seems only
> the gullible unemployed have the time to build these boats, so presumably they
> wont have the time to cruise.
> It seems the vast majority of this tiny steel fleet fall into this
> category and simply have a arrogant diposition and laugh at people
> who happily cruise for years on 32 foot Beneteaus (see below) or anything that did
> not cost a million or take years to build by hand. Considering that a steel boat will
> cost more than most used plastic boats, one wonders how logical it can be
> that a steel boat is somehow more attractive than the average plastic go now cruiser.
> 
> My personal view is that those BS junkies they have long lost
> the will to think or be captured by logical ideals. I think most people who have practical
> common sense will look at plastic, those that cant
> afford to spend over $50K and years of their lives welding instead of cruising opt for buying a boat and just going and virtually every time it's plastic.
> Its totally wrong to call these people fools and shoot them down with
> unproven moronic babble. Because simply at the end of the day
> anecdotal evidence is in their favour.
> 
> Its a perfectly understandable occurence when many
> Beneteaus do a
> circumnavigation and get recognized for it, yet the el cheapo BS hulls from 26 and up rust from the inside so that a kid can stick a screwdriver through the hull and BS insists that's still preferable to plastic. It always amuses me that in the usa where most boats
> are plastic and the huge origamiboat bias against anything economical and
> under 40 feet i see sometimes more small plastic cruisers
> in most ports. Of course, that can't be because I'm wrong. So, someone is certainly missing the boat. The bias
> towards production plastic boats and 44 foot plus is clearly
> evident by the millions of them out there in every marina across the globe, compared to the small handful of rusty steel boats on rocks in the PNW and reefs in Mexico. So one really has to wonderS who is fooling who.
> 
> I am
> sorry to say Brent your reasoning is not part of common cruising
> folklore and dreams, you need to work on your facts and honesty.
> 
> SO what i am saying is that its nice being delusional, but the boat hull is only about 1% of the total pie when building a steel boat, and to
> simply focus on the material when 99 other elements have to be
> considered is wrong. If buying a plastic boat gets you out there cruising NOW who really cares about those other things. The sad fact is that regardless of how good steel is, the chances are virtually nil for an unskilled metal worker to complete the steel boat BS advocates.
> 
> Since this group is about people interested in cruising, i thought i would focus on these ideals,
> and strengths of the philosophy of the designers and the people who
> dare to dream and dont play the anti-consumer orientated childish snobbery
> games of life.
> 
> One word has been changed out to bring the stupid-factor down a notch.


Fixed it for you. And you're right. It's a great post.


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## mr_f

bobperry said:


> One is not "better" than the other


Bob,

I generally have a lot of respect for the things you post, but the above quote is just silly.


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## bobperry

Maybe look at he front page of SAILING ANARCHY today.
Yeah, it's silly but I like it.


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## bfloyd4445

shank32095 said:


> I am rather good with analogies but this post is so insane that it leaves my mind totally blank but I will give it a shot. B. Perry & BS maybe like Bin Laden & Mother Teresa or Ben Franklin & Guber on Andy of Mayberry.


:laugher..I can certainly see merit in your analogies. The fact is both of them with their bickering have taught me much about sailing and I am grateful for that


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## bobperry

Me?
Mother Teresa?
I never thought of myself in that way but I think I like it.
I know for a fact that Mother Teresa never bickered.
I'll go help the poor tonight. But in my beach neighborhood that's going to be damn hard.
"Now now dear, your old Lexus is a fine car."

How about I minister to the hard of hearing.


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## shank32095

Bob, I stated I was at a loss for analogies. I think Ben & Guber might be more appropriate. But isn't that a ****** ice cream outfit ?


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## bobperry

Sorry Shank, "Ben and Gruber" mean nothing to me. But if you say so. I must read different books than you read.


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## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> Me?
> Mother Teresa?
> I never thought of myself in that way but I think I like it.
> I know for a fact that Mother Teresa never bickered.
> I'll go help the poor tonight. But in my beach neighborhood that's going to be damn hard.
> "Now now dear, your old Lexus is a fine car."
> 
> How about I minister to the hard of hearing.


chuckle....I'll bet you would look good in a skirt. I see now the truth is coming out....So you like the idea of adhering to the vows of chastity, poverty and obedience. Obedience huh?....Bob, I never would have imagined


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## bobperry

bfloyd:
"chastity, poverty and obedience."
Chastity? I'm 68.
Poverty? I'm a yacht designer.
Obedience? Have you ever met my dog?

I have the requirements totally nailed. No skirt though.


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## shank32095

I am currently living a BS analogy actually. Currently begun an ocean front home here in Salvador, Brazil. Built homes for years in Florida, the most regulated, inspection insane place on the planet. Brazil, not so much. Anyway I had an interesting discussion with my contractor here today on the topic of QUALITY CONSTRUCTION. I stated that he needed to improve on quality of the work or he would have to be replaced. He stated that is the way he has done it for over fifteen years and it was quality. I told him his idea and my idea of quality were quite different and at the end of the day it is my opinion that holds weight. "But" he said
"It is the way I have always done it for 15 years". I replied with what was a very poor Brazilian analogy. "Ricardo, Say that I have been making love to your wife for the last fifteen years, does that make it right just because I have been doing it a long time?" After a long explanation I hope he understands the analogy and doesn't think his wife was cheating on him and I wake up dead.

The point for Brent is the same. Just because you have done it a certain way for a long time does not make it the only way or the correct way. It might suit some people but certainly not the majority.


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## shank32095

Bob, A clarification. Ben Franklin, played by you. Guber, the greasy mechanic on the old Andy Griffith Show, played by BS. Get it!


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## bfloyd4445

bobperry said:


> bfloyd:
> "chastity, poverty and obedience."
> Chastity? I'm 68.
> Poverty? I'm a yacht designer.
> Obedience? Have you ever met my dog?
> 
> I have the requirements totally nailed. No skirt though.


your the one that said you liked being compared to mother Teresa. So I assumed you being an intelligent man must be aware of what Mother Teresa stood for so you must also like her lifestyle. She founded a worldwide order based upon chastity, poverty and obedience....tehe.....Look up Mother Teresa and see what I mean

So Bob, tell us, how do you like to be disciplined when your disobedient?<smile>......naw...rolling in laughter.

Bob, no offense meant all in good fun

and God bless all you wonderful people on sailnet


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## outbound

Oh shucks I really liked Guber. He was polite,self effacing, pleasant and occasionally displayed great common sense.


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## bobperry

Shank:
I never watched shows like that. I know the show you mean. Mayberry?
I prefer uplifting documentaries like COPS.

bfloyd:
Give me a break. Of course I know exactly who Mother Teresa was. Do you think I live in a cave? I loved her first album. I have it. On vinyl.


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## bobperry

Out:
Ok, I didn't watch the show but I am not stupid.
I don't want to be Guber. BS can be Guber.
To begin with Guber (Jim Neighbors) was gay.
And he had a really silly speaking voice but sang in a deep baritone voice. How weird is that?
He dressed really silly.

No, No, No. BS can be Guber.
I'll be Ward Cleaver.


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## AlaskaMC

EDIT: BOB! NO NO NO! That is the other Pyle, i.e. Gomer Pyle the one that left Mayberry and joined the Marines. We are talking GOOBER PYLE. His much cooler brother. And don't be Ward Cleaver, he is kinda creepy in a way don't you think? He would have considered cruising in a sailboat suspicious at best.

Goober Pyle was famous for saying:
Judy, Judy, Judy! 

Loved Goober Pyle (proper spelling) ! He woulda been a sailor I am convinced. But, I am sure BS would have us believe that as a common man, and working in a garage he woulda welded up his boat himself.

My hope is that he would have invested his money quietly in IBM or some such, and had Bob design a proper yacht for him around his personality. That would have been a cool boat.

On the other hand, I thought it had been decided that Bob was a guitar playing cowboy or a truck driver at heart and he just hangs around here to drive BS deeper into crazy town.

On the subject of boat design, got your book Bob. Very enjoyable. Thanks for writing it. I need to get off my duff and do some writing myself. Good inspiration to get it done.


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## shank32095

So who plays BS, Goober , Gomer or Barney Fife. Bob has dibs as Ward Cleaver of the High Seas


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## AlaskaMC

He is definitely Barney. Agitated, somewhat angry, self doubting and very funny. 

Oh, and lets face it, he only has one bullet for his gun and he keeps it in his pocket. Definitely Barney.


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## AlaskaMC

See, I would think Bob is more the pipe smoking, bearded ghost Captain from the Ghost and Mrs Muir. 

Or maybe we are doing the wrong era here, Archie Bunker vs Meathead

Ducks for cover...


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## bobperry

Nope. BS is Fester, Dillon's side kick.

I could be confused.

I still want to be Ward Cleaver. June was hot.
Or Ozzie Nelson.
Or the dad in My Three sons.
I'm the kind, semi flustered, fatherly type who looks good in a cardigan.


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## shank32095

Not uncle Fester on the munsters, he was actually kinda cool. I wouldn't call BS cool.


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## shank32095

Who plays Smack?


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## AlaskaMC

OK Bob, I will buy the father from my three sons. He was a pipe smoker and a rational type.

Smack? Now this could be fun! Hmmmmmm.....

I think we need to go cartoon now. Speed Racer! Bob is Pops (Designeer), Smack is Speed (racer), and BS is Spridle (comic relief) with all his mystery posters combined into Chim Chim.






I LOVE THIS THREAD. It keeps me coming back to sailnet I hate to say.


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## smackdaddy

shank32095 said:


> Who plays Smack?


I play Smack. Obviously.


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## outbound

I see Bob as the old guy who supervised Ben Casey or as Connor in the rifleman. All knowing and wise. See Brent as Eddie Haskell not Bob as the beave's father.
Back to steel. Was told an eon ago that even with the coating intact plate can and will lose thickness with time.Never understood that. Is there any truth to that? Also told work hardening is more likely when plate is molded from original shape. Any truth to that? Also told even in absence of oil canning metal fatigue can occur leading to catastrophic failure which requires a large safety factor leading to a heavy boat. Always question this as well. These statements were made by fellow students when I did a welding course for change in pace at a local vo-tec. Never got to ask instructor as I used that time to learn technique.
Brent started in on the service life of grp. Any thoughts on what truly limits the service life of Fe and Al beyond the impacts Brent seems to relish and the obvious failure to maintain adequate coatings or zincs. What's a reasonable expected service life for a steel boat?


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## bobperry

No question.
Smack is to be played by Steve Buschemi.
" Why do I have to be Mr. Pink?"

Out:
Go find an old Rhodes Bounty or a Triton. I only wish GRP would not last that long. It would mean more business for me. I have a client who has a son with a Triton. It's pristine, like it was built last year. Damn GRP!

What ever happened to polyestermites?


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## outbound

I live near where they made Pearsons and Cape Dories. I think the most of the host of them floating in the local harbor are older then Brent. They probably don't show their age as much either as they are well loved.( Sorry Brent making a joke. Don't know how old you are or what you look like. I'm sure you a a fine specimen of a man.) 
Was trying to ask a serious question. I know commercial and military vessels are thought about differently but what's an expected service life for a steel sailboat?


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## goat

Ward, don't you think you were a little hard on the Beaver last night?
-June Cleaver


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## Faster

Well, it was fun for a while but it's wearing pretty thin of late.

In our opinion, this thread, which is certainly no longer representative of its title, has run its course. We have received a number of PMs over the past little while with requests to close, rename, remove, or otherwise attempt to 'fix' it - which would be an impossible task, really.

To their credit, none of these complaints came from any of the combatants despite the number of posts here that, strictly speaking, would/could/should have been considered against the site rules re: personal attacks and name-calling - which is probably the main reason it has been allowed to continue so long..

In any event, it's time to put a lock on this and move on.


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