# Cruising on Multihulls



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

We are starting to look at multihulls for cruising. Neither one of us has much experience sailing one and so far have been impressed by the living space. I have read about people doing crossings and cruising on them. Looking for more information and feedback. Thanks.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Great another multihull sailor. Not many on this site. What type of sailing do you do, coastal, blue water, etc.? What is your Budget? Are you looking at new or used boats? Is performance more important than comfort to you? Multihulls are a different breed than your normal monomaran but choices are just as varied so if you could supply more info it would be appreciated.
Capedory


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

We do coastal cruising now, but intend to be blue water sailing in the next year or so. We have an opportunity to consider a Catana 431 and are chartering a 48 in the Windward Islands in June. Performance, endurance and comfort are about equal concerns. The Catana we are looking at is about 1 year old. What do you sail?


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## Leslie2 (Apr 30, 2001)

Multihulls are far more comfortable than monohulls for long voyages. My father owns a 44ft St Francis catamaran which he has crossed the Atlantic on and it was a smooth sail. A few years back he crossed in a smaller monohull, not as comfortable if you have family on board. He is presently selling his St Francis, so if anyone is interested please reply!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

saw your reply to another cat novice. i am bidding on a 1982 prout quest 31'' which i plan to dock at my home in ft myers, fl.
i plan to eventually sail to the keys & bahamas, etc. do you know anything about these cats? owner did interior, looks like a sturdy nice craft.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have a little different take from the above. I really hate sailing cruising cats. Unlike their lightweight cousins, they are not as fast as modern mono-hulls in the conditions that most of us actually sail in. They are really at their worst in light air where their high wetted surface really makes them ''sticky''. They also don''t point worth a darn which in the Intercoastal world of west Florida means a whole lot of motoring.

While they sail relatively flat, small cruising cats have a comparatively quick snappy motion. There are two factors that cause motion sickness; the angle of movement(amount of roll) and the rate of movement(the frequency and accellerations of the motion). Individuals have varying degrees of susceptibility to motion sickness and some people can tollerate a lot of movement but not quick motion and others cannot tollerate much movement but speed does not affect them. 

A lot of people have problems with seasickness on cruising cats because of their snappy motion. This could be a serious probelm in the short chop of a Gulf Stream crossing or the ''Flats'' of the Bahamas.

While a lot of sea miles are being covered by crusing cats, I really think that small ones, under about 35 or so feet have not been fairing all that well in terms of seaworthiness. 

The other issue with small cruising cats is the ability to carry enough weight to go really go cruising. As you load weight on a cruising cat a number of things happen. First, with weight they loose speed very quickly. Second of all, to some extent, cats absorb gusts by accellerating rather than heeling. When there is too much weight in board they can''t accellerate and so become more dangerous. Lastly, the greater drag and inertia of a over-loaded cat, really increases the stresses on the comparatively light construction of a cat and really shortens thier overall lifespan. 

In particular the small Prouts have been a personal dis-favorite of mine. They are not especially good sailors in either light air or heavy.

On the other hand the shoal draft of a cruising Cat is a nice thing to have in your neck of the woods.

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Geez, Jeff_H. Lighten up. Motoring in the intracoastal? Whoever heard of such a thing? Everyone motors in the intracoastal even monomorans. Sailing is much better once out in the Gulf. But hey, lots of cats and tris do have the option of sailing out of the channel, do you? They do sail flat that is true. I can put a drink down in some pretty bad weather and when I come back it''s still there, in the same place. And the quick snappy motion, is that worse than the slow rolling motion of a monomoran? To you maybe, but not necessairly to all. Motion sickness is an individual thing, not everyone is affected by the same motions. As for the small cats not faring well, check out smaller Prouts, Wharrams, Iriquiois and the F series from Farrier. These are pretty sucessful boats that have a lot of ocean crossings and circumnavigations under their shallow draft dagger boards. Dangerous? Most anything can be dangerous if used incorrectly, even your boat Jeff_H, not to mention cars, airplanes, even pencils, pens ladders whatever. The user just has to be aware of the designed use of whatever it is one is trying to use and use it accordingly. I presentlly have a "small" (under 35 ft.) 34ft Solaris cruising catamaran and fell perfectly safe whether motoring in the intracoastal with monomorans or out in the Gulf of Mexico sailing. So, all in all I''d have to say to all looking at a multihull you are in for a very different experience than what you may find on the usual run of the mill monomoran. And if you are motoring in the intracoastal and see a catamaran anchored over near some island in two or three feet of water with no monomorans around stop by and say hi.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

on the subject of cruising multihulls, would one consider a 1992 32'' Gemini catamran capable of serious cruising or an ocean crossing? I am presently a mono owner who drools across the dock at the comfort ond room on my neighbour''s prout. Thanks in advance.


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

Clare, I''d encourage you to reread all of Jeff''s reply as you''ll find a host of valuable insights there. We''ve recently cruised in company with a Lagoon 40 and they''ve mentioned every one of his cautions.

I disagree about cats being ''more'' or ''less'' comfortable: they''re just different in motion, which some owners find to be better for them.

To Max, here are two notes about Geminis you might want to consider. First, one fellow was trying to reach Key West from the Dry Totugas in his Gemini when the mast went thru the cabin top. The conditions didn''t seem to warrant this failure & the surveyor felt it was a product failure. Based on the owner''s description as I heard it, I think the offset mast support was the problem. Second, the MIKI G recently left California and completed an uneventful voyage thru the Canal and up to the Florida Keys. But they were careful to minimize their offshore legs and have commented they don''t think the boat is capable of true offshore cruising. Tony Smith is a great guy who''s succeeded against some amazingly challenging obstacles, but his Gemini isn''t an offshore boat, IMO.

Jack


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks, Jack. Since I started asking around, I''ve heard pretty much the same. Aparrently the new ones are better. Now I have to figure out how to keep my 8 week old safe and sound on our boat. Many have suggested a hammock, but I worry if he rolls inside of it it may create a suffocation hazard. Any ideas?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

And I know of a 30'' Nonsuch that lost it''s mast just off Key Largo. Guess they aren''t bluewater boats either! IMO the thing that makes Geminis not good bluewater boats is displacement. They displace about 7000 lb., half of what a 32'' mono weighs. They cannot be loaded up the same. 1500 lbs of cruising stuff makes a much bigger difference in both safety and speed to the cat than to the monohull. There are heavier, slower cats in the 30 foot range that are bluewater cruisers, 3000 & 3200 Geminis just aren''t. As for the motion, that''s a function of weight as well. Geminis only draw 18" so they do bob around on top of the water rather than plow through it. Definately a different, quicker motion. 
I''ve said enough, Tom


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

i am considering a 1986 prout quest cs 33'' for use as an offshore cruiser going from florida down the thornless path as far as 
costa rica. any comments on this craft?
displacement is 9520 lbs.
have never owned a multihull.


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## henryvand (May 2, 2000)

A couple from Canada did a round the world trip on a cat and wrote a book called Sailing Promise - the author is Elaine Mayne - not sure about the spelling - if you can find the book it is a good read.


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## tlyons (Oct 14, 2000)

Try going here: http://www.geminigems.hispeed.com/
and getting on the listserver. Better yet, subscribe to the newsletter and get access to the back issues online. It''ll give you real input from people actually cruising on Gemini''s.

I just bought an almost new Gemini 105 after years of sailing monohulls and am *very* pleased with the performance. Its quicker, smoother, much roomier, is way more protected in bad weather and my regular guests all comment on how much less tiring the non-heeling ride is. Downsides? docking it is like parking a Winnebago, and its loud underway at speeds greater than 8kts(centerboards bumping, waves slapping the shallow hulls, turbulence.) Of course, remember thats for speeds over 8kts I''m talking about.


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

To gto2 about your trip down the Thorny (not Thornless) Path, it''s a voyage apparently all production cat boats can make because I think we''ve seen at least one of every kind along the way. (You mention your destination as Costa Rica, but that''s in the other direction; guess you''re also planning a westward leg). BUT reread Jeff''s comments about cruising multi''s in this thread. EVERY one of his notes about their pitfalls has been repeated to us by multi owners making that passage.

Also, the single biggest self-admitted mistake Cat sailors described to us was overloading their boats. One Dr. thought he should have 1 or 2 of everything on his Gemini - just to go to Georgetown in the Bahamas, mind you - and the boat performed so badly they were forced to take routes they didn''t intend simply because of the boat''s inability to do what it should have been capable of. They''re now uninstalling gear. A Lagoon 40 I mentioned above started for Trinidad 1.5 years ago and couldn''t get past the Bahamas because they''d loaded the boat up too much for adequate performance. (And this is a BIG cat...). They returned to Florida, changed their approach to gear & stores, and have now made a successful passage down there - but while still grumbling about the boat''s inability to go into seas, even carefully loaded.

I think this ''loading'' issue can seem counter-intuitive since cats have so much volume and therefore offer so much stowage space. It also explains why the Brits built some cats that were so heavy and performed like monohulls; they were intended to be cruised without the sparkling performance that later multis - light displacement, racing types - began achieving.

To Max, I remember we had the exact same worry about our young son rolling around and ending up under a pillow...and this was on a little 27'' Vega. But the reality was different. Babies can be ''chocked in place'' enough that this can''t happen - especially on a cat. When they''re old enough to overcome the ''chocks'', they''re old enoug to get themselves out from underneath a pillow/bag/etc. IME.

Jack


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hello Cape,
I too am considering buying a multi. I have totally narrowed my selection to a Prout..probably a 37'', 38'' or 39''. I have studied everything possible for over a year now and everything taken into consideration these models appear to be the best approach to every pro & con discussed in this thread.
I am starting a new business ( I build own & operated wireless communication towers) so I should be making the jump on about a year. It will take me that long to accumulate the cash & tell the IRS so long (after they raped me of about $8mm.
See you soon out there.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hey clareg,
I think that you are going down the right track in respect to Multi''s. We ahve been mono sailors for over 40 years & made the transition to a multi last year.

We purchased a Dufour Nautitech 475, but after 12 months we are looking at modifying her to enable her to properly carry the weight she was loaded with when we bought her ie Generators, watermakers, 1200 ah of batteries, landlubber water & fuel.

We are now adding 1.5m to the stern & .75m to the bows & extending the rig by 2m, adding a panel to the main & adding a lager overlapping genoa. Currently she has a "self tacker". Currently we can carry all sail in 30 kts apparent without even looking like having to reef !

At this point in time, the boat holds its own with most monos of a larger size, and other cruising cats - where they do come into their own is on longer cruises where the hulls are not bound to "hull speed" like monos of a cruising / racing design. We club race regularly.

Cats with centreboards certainly perform better than those with fixed keels (as ours is) - but it is a trade off in both instances. We are happy with the ease of fixed keels & performance and pointing ability really depends on the individual owning the boat.

The prior owners of our boat test sailed each boat available in our size range, and while the Catana was slightly faster, the overall value for money with the Dufour won the day.

Our boat was sailed from Tahiti to Australia, and as a rule, most French manufactured boats are delivered across the Atlantic on their own bottoms.

The other aspect to the French manufactured boats, is that they are all built to DNV survey & are certified by this agency - check with other manufacturers.

Upside to cats :
Livability - most cruising proponents statistically say that only 10% of your cruising time is spent at sea. This is borne out by many cruisers who end up in our area.

Sea Kindly - despite what other people have to say - we have now done 2,000nm of open ocean cruising on our boat and as opposed to monos - the motion is no problem. Most of our sailing is conducted in 20 knots +, and so far have recorded a max of 16 knots.

Fuel efficient - generally smaller diesels (even with 2) than is required to push a similiar sized mono. We have twin 50''s and get 8 knots at 1/2 rpm using 1.5 ltr per engine per hour

Stability - have never had to worry about gimbals (fiddles yes), but generally all sailing is done on an even keel with very little sudden lurching - even surfing down swells.

Downside
Modern Cats don''t seem to have any corners ie all of our furnishings are rounded - which makes it impossible to prop into a corner & relax at sea or in harbour. Not even in our cockpit. We are rectifying this during our Mods.

Other than than - we are yet to experience a downside. And docking is no problem at all - in fact it is just as easy as a mono with a single diesel. The boat will spin in its own length. BUT windage can be a problem - just have to allow for it.

Let us know if you want any further info.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

after reading the current feedback on cat cruising i am forming the opinion that if i cannot afford at least a 37-42'' cat for offshore passage, perhaps i should look at monohulls in the 36-42'' range which i can afford.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Guys,

Just as an update on our Nautitech 475 - we have now craned her out of the water to begin extensions to enable her to carry the loads installed by her previous owner.

Just for your information, the boat is supposed to weigh 10.5 tonne according to her manual.

When lifted out she weighed 15 tonne with 1/2 fuel & 1/2 water. No wonder we could keep full sail in 30 knots apparent !!

So, it appears that if we want to retain the cruising comforts she has - (& this entends to a Fisher Panda 6 generator, watermaker, washing machine (small)- then the extensions are more than necessary if we want to sail - as opposed to "motorsail"

The increased rig has now been re-engineered - however, given the weight of the boat - we will be reefing down to save the rig - not save the boat from capsizing !!

Upon reflection of our last posting, an additional downside to Cats is the fact that there are not many marinas (in our part of the world anyway) that can cope with the beam for lifting by travellift - so, crane was our only option at probably 3 times the cost. Also marina berthing attracts a fee of 1.5 times the cost of a berth, and in some cases 2 times because you take up the space allocated to 2 berths with the beam of a cat.

So, once again, this example typifies the weight factor on Cats - and we do not believe that the above "crusing comforts" are excessive - although it now looks like the airconditioning won''t be going in !!

Still, when all is said & done - she still sails as well as a mono - but the comfort factor - both at sea & especially in port more than compensates for the modifications we are doing.

Will keep everyone posted - but the moral here is to carefully evaluate your cruisng comfort levels - in terms of equipment - and ensure that your "stock" cat can carry the load. Our boat certainly looks ok in terms of the weight she has - ie she floats well above her waterline - but the performance was sluggish.

Jinga


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

Hi, Jinga...

I''m a monohull sailor but have enjoyed cruising this past 1+ years with cats as well as monos, and I really appreciate your balanced comments about your cat project. Keep us posted, and keep the weight off the boat & out of the ends - and good luck on that revamped rig!

Jack


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hey Jack,

Many thanks for the comments - & I guess that we will prevail - our other option was to look to selling this boat & buying / building another - but I suspect that we would just be facing the same problems albeit in a bigger boat !! 

So, better to bite the bullet & spend the money to get it right - than drop money on a sale & then have to get it right again.

The boat is really great - just sails like a dog.

Now we have done our calculations (via a Naval Architect) we believe that we will be up there with the Cruiser / Racer cats, and that rather than have 15 tonnes on 47.5 feet - we will have 15 tonne on 53 feet.Much more acceptable!! The extension weight will be negiligible (cored Kevlar).

Anyway - will keep you posted - thanks for the interest.

Rodger


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

hi Jinga:

I just bought a lagoon 410 myself and I would be interested in knowing how your boat got from 10.5 to 15 tonnes. The genset and watermaker should only amount to a few 100''s kilos...so i can see 11t...where do the other 4 t come from?
i just sailed a similar cat in the Grenadines las week, she was fully equipped ( genset, watermaker, icemaker !!!, microwave etc...) but we were only 2 adults on board and managed to get her to 12kts on several occassions with 1 reef in the main and full jib with winds at 20-25kts...not a Catana but not bad.
Also how did the cost of the modification compared to selling your existing boat and buying a 55ft with the same amenities ???

thanks

herve


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi hervel,

We''re not sure how she came to be so heavy either - the weight measurement came from the scales attached to the crane & could be upto 10% out. We believed her to be about 13.5t & that would be consistent with a 10% error.

Still heavy though.

I guess that she was ostensibly fitted out for very comfortable cruising & has the following :

Fisher Panda Generator, Watermaker, Diesel Heater, Washing Machine, 4 x Lifeline 285ah batteries (bloody big), 500 ltr water & 400 ltr fuel.

We figure that the modifications to bring her into Australian Charter standards added probably .5t (1,100 ltr/min bilge / firefighting pump & 2" Stainless Steel plumbing from this pump to each compartment).

Anyway - she is still heavy for any type of sailing in breezes under 15 kts !

In respect to the possiblity of selling her & buying / building a larger boat as opposed to the modifications - there are several reasons for our course of action :

1. We did look very closely at a Lagoon 55 - but our reseach showed that we would probably end up with a similar problem - ie a boat loaded up to cruise & marginal sailing performance.

2. The physical size daunted us a little & while I would be comfortable with something like the Lagoon 55 - the practicalities of a 55'' x 28'' boat anywhere in our area is a costly exercise in terms of mooring and slipping. We just squeeze in as we are (beam wise at 26'')

3. The boat we have is "new" - and has everything we wanted for comfortable cruising (including Satphone). While she was launched in Oct 98 - she had done very little sailing & the engines only had 100 hrs on them when we bought her. So, to sell her & look to something a little larger would mean looking to an older boat.

4. To sell the boat here in Aus means accepting payment in "Pacific Pesos" & then having to shell out $US for something else - so it meant a changeover of perhaps $US 100k by the time we paid duties, taxes etc.

5. In reality, we don''t really want a "bigger" boat - but one that sails faster. The only way to achieve this was to either take out weight or increase the waterline length. Obviously, we have chosen the later. The accommodations we have are great & I think that for 2 people, with the odd visitors - our boat is on the larger end of the scale - but is very comfortable.

6. The modifications we are doing include the following : extending the bows by 750mm, extending the stern by 1500mm and reshaping the aft sections a little to encnce the waterflow, extending the rig by 2000m, adding a panel to the main and installing a larger (60sqm) overlapping jib on the furler. Additionally, we are re-distributing the loading - as the gen, watermaker, diesel heater, holding tank & 300 ltr watertank are all on the port side - with the watertank being located in the extremes of the bow. On the starboard side is a 200 ltr tank & the waterheater (60 ltr) !! - so we are going to shut off the 300 ltr tank & keep it for "in port" & locate a 300 ltr tank on the starboard side.

The total cost for all of this is $US 25,000.00 (quoted)- Including Naval Architect fees.

So, hopefully, with the above, we should get to an acceptable sailing ability - even with keels !! - If the truth be known - I''m not sure that I could go through the selling / buying process for quite some time !!

Just out of interest - I will post some pics when I can.

Thanks for the interest hervel & will keep you posted. Sorry about the long diatribe - but its a decision that we have agonised over for some time now.

Cheers
Rodger


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Suggest that you obtain the book by Charles Kanter "Cruising on More than One Hull" (Sailco Press, Box 2099, Key Largo FL 33037, 305-743-0626 [email protected]) After owning & sailing four monomarans over the course of 15 years, we bought a 1983 Prout 37'' Snowgoose last year. For many reasons, this was our choice for an offshore cruising adventure. All sailing boats have their nasty habits, as well as their good ones, else you wouldn''t have people out buying boats & cruising.
Speed is in the eye of the beholder- what was a white knuckle 8 knot experience on our Tartan 44 is a leasurely sail on the Snowgoose. Sailng to windward?? Our 2 C & C''s and the two Tartans that we owned could pinch to 25 apparent (our Tartan 30 was a real sleeper in the club races-she could out point every boat execpt a Dash 34) The Snowgoose can go to about 30 apparent above 7 knots true, better performance when we crack off to 35-40. A friend used to own a Morgan Out Island 41 which couldn''t even handle point to 45 apparent. Much of a boat''s windward ability also depends on seamanship, condition of sails, sheeting angle, etc. (Buddy Melges once won a race in a Westsail 32!)
We''ve found that the Snowgoose handles quite well in the light airs that we have in the Pacific NW - 3-4 knots in 5-6 knots of breeze. Trucks smartly along when the wind pipes up as well.
Downwind is where the cat shines-NO DEATH ROLL! Our Prout moves like she''s on railroad tracks when downwind. I have yet to be on any monohull of any size or displacement that doesn''t have a downwind roll (I think this is where rolling down the trades originated!)
Yes, all boats make noise & have movement-after all, we''re travelling in a very fluid, changeable environment. Multis do have a quicker motion, which usually means that objects don''t have time to develop momentum & fly around the cabin. In short steep chop, there is noise on the bridgedeck; however, in similar situations the mono will also be "noisy" as it plows into a wave & falls off of one. One of the worst & noisiest rides that we ever had was off the Oregon coast on a Tayana 37-she''d dig in a wave, free herself from it, rise above the surf, then slam down with a resounding BOOM! which went on for about 5 hours.
Payload is another consideration-the Prout is built to have a greater payload than some of her sexier French cousins, albeit not a great as a monomaran. Over the years, I''ve found that we tend to be packrats, so we prefer to travel light anyway-less hassle & less things to look after. Besides, when criusing, who wears that much anyway? Food is available all places that we may go and fresh is better. We have more than enough storage for a 3-4 week ocean passage-we tend to stay away from canned goods, opting for dried beans, lentils, rice, etc. that can be cooked on the go-also less problem with trash disposal of cans. A light weight water maker supplements the water tanks, which are located low in each mini keel and hold about 50 gal each. 
When loading the cat, sensible weight distribution is a must. It is important to keep the heavy weight low and out of the ends. This is also true for the faster monos-we had to be very weight conscious on our Tartan 44 to keep the weight out of the bow & stern-any heavy weight in these areas effected the trim & sailing performance.
We all have our personal preferences and opinions-if your dream is to cruise in a cat, then don''t compromise-go for it! With some reasearch and looking, you will be able to find the right boat to meet your cruising requirements and your budget.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have cruised the Priv 39 good boat well built and good load carring. Doesn''t point as well as a good Mono but then again you can''t have every thing. There are some good deals out there. If you are really budget minded look at some of the deals on Tri''s.


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