# What is the best liveaboard heating method?



## HappyPappy

I'm curious, what does everyone use to heat their boat during their winter liveaboard months? I've searched this forum and I have not found a thread that specifically covers this topic, but if I'm duplicating threads, please point me in the right direction!  

We are in the final stages of purchasing a boat to be our liveaboard. The boat is 35', and we are a family of 4, and will be living in the Annapolis / Chesapeake area. I will be working each day in DC, but my wife will be a stay at home mom for our twin boys who are 11. I'm a little concerned about keeping the boat warm during the winter months, without breaking the bank by running an electric heater from shore power all the time. SO, I'm reaching out to the mass collective knowledge (aka SailNet Forums), in search of what everyone else has found to work the best.

What works best?


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## kd3pc

hydronic heat is absolutely the best...can be pricey, but is quiet, efficient, easy to use, safe, and some systems work without shorepower full time...


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## killarney_sailor

We lived onboard for two winters in the NYC area and had an Espar forced air system. This seemed to work better than boats that relied on electricity. Our boat was warmer (we never had our heater on full-blast) and drier and did not have the cold spots near the floor that they had. Downsides are that you have to jerry jug your fuel in (we used about 20 gallons every three weeks on a 45' footer - and I was on the boat most of the time) and the capital cost. Also the duct work takes up a fair bit of space in lockers - but keeps these lockers toasty and dry. A hydronic system would avoid this problem since you are running small-diameter water hose rather than much larger air ducts - but these systems are even more costly and more complex.


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## T37Chef

Eryka...where are you???


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## TQA

Eberspächer UK - Applications for Marine

The Airtronic D5 kit is about 3k [ in the UK ] runs on diesel.

Eberspachers are the most widely used diesel heaters in Europe, boats and trucks rely on them.


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## bljones

Beans. Lots of beans.


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## Capnblu

Espar D5 diesel forced air heater. I like it.


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## Maine Sail

Espar or Webasto both make excellent hydronic/FHW or FHA units. I tend to like the scorched air units as they keep the boat nice and dry. Four people on a boat with all that breathing and condensation and you may be better off with FHA. If one or two people a hydronic system will be more comfortable and can heat your hot water too..

Defender now sells Webasto kits. I love Espar units but our distributor in Norther New England I rather dislike. Have used both systems and they are both very nice..


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## pedcab

Both my present life and my boat size don't allow me to live aboard, but when I do need to heat the cabin in the winter I use a very simple yet effective solution:

A clay vase (a simple unpainted one, obviously) upside down on top of a camping-gaz stove. You'd be surprised of how much ambient heat this configuration can produce from a mini stove running on the mininimum possible setting...

Cheers


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## catamariner

Thought I should mention, when friends of ours wintered over south of Baltimore, they enclosed the cockpit with a plastic curtain hanging from the bimini -- this gave them both an "airlock" and a place to store beverages to be cooled, etc. Seemed to help their boat stay warmer.


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## sailak

We have an Espar forced air heater on Cirrus. Nice and toasty and we rarely turn it much above the lowest setting on the thermostat.

Another boat owner here has rigged a hanging locker with ducting from his forced air heat and uses it to dry clothing.


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## SVAuspicious

My boat came with Webasto forced-air that was a major maintenance issue. Lots of $$. I switched to Espar forced-air and am much much happier. Beats the heck out of electric heat; pays for itself in a year and nothing to trip over.


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## teejayevans

I use an electric heater from west marine ($60).
If you have a big boat, get two, probably the most important
area of the boat to keep warm is the head/shower.
Tom


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## TheMadDogs

For what it's worth... 

We are full time liveaboards on a 40' sloop, Mad Dog Voyager.

The winter of 2008-2009 was spent living aboard Mad Dog Voyager while in Alaska. Specifically we spent the entire winter (September 2008 - April 2009) in Glacier Bay (later we learned from the Rangers that we were the first boat to spend the entire winter living aboard in the Bay).

We have an Espar D4 and it did a fantastic job. Everything was dry, toasty and we had very little condensation problems. However if you look closely at the warranty for the Espar it is covered for 2 yrs or 2000 hrs; the Webasto is 3000 (or might be 3500) hrs.

Doesn't matter if the heater is run at min or max, the hours chalk up nonetheless. To replace the Espar blower motor is between $250 - $400 (depending where you buy it).

Espar is quite specific about their warranty and normally you either need to have a dealer check the hours on the unit or send it in to have the hours read before they'll do any warranty replacements.

Running it for an entire winter will very quickly clock in the hours.

However, having said all of that forced-air is definitely the ONLY way to go in wet environments.

Enjoy!

Dean


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## eryka

T37Chef said:


> Eryka...where are you???


Chef - Spent most of July in Canada. Couldn't really post about it in my blog (for obvious reasons, who's going to write in the local paper that they'll be away from home for several weeks  ) But do want to write about it now that we're back; great cruising. And cooler and dryer than we heard it was here!

Hard to think about winter and heating yet, but here goes. I don't know that we have the "best" method, but I do know that we have a method that works in the Chesapeake, refined after 8 years of living aboard in Annapolis. Actually I think the "best" method of heating is to take your boat to Florida, the Bahamas, or the Caribbean for the winter, but I don't think that's what the OP is asking.

Our marina, like several others in the area, doesn't bill individually for electricity, so that is a factor in our cost decisions. We use an oil-filled electric space heater (the kind that looks like an old-fashioned radiator) in the main cabin, and a pair of small ceramic heaters one in the head and one at the toe of the V-berth. Our mast is keel-stepped, which means its a giant heat conductor - or cold conductor in this case. We wrap the below-decks portion with insulating material to minimize heat loss. Reflectix (the silver bubble-wrap looking stuff from Home Depot) is effective, efficient and easy to work. We also have a Webasto diesel heater that can heat the entire boat on the 1/2 setting - for if we're at anchor, or if there's a power outage. As others have mentioned, condensation is an issue in winter here, and the drying effect of these heaters is an advantage.

We tried tarping over and shrink-wrapping the boat; didn't seem to help the heating all that much, and we don't have a headliner, but the cover needed maintenance after every wind/snow storm, and it kept ALL the moisture in, making the condensation issue truly horrible. We settled for just fully enclosing the cockpit, giving us an airlock and cool storage room.

Pappy, feel free to PM me or email me (my email is just my screen name @att.net) if you want to chat about living aboard here - we really do love it!


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## thorrad

So here are my .02. I have lived in the PNW (Seattle area) for the last two years onboard a Catalina 36. We have a two stage heating system that goes like this. 

In the fall and early winter we can get away with the oil filled electric heaters that others here have talked about. The local marina will not allow the use of ANY unattended electric fan heaters. They have had trouble with fan type heaters burning down boats and marinas around here. If the fan stops working while the heat is on the coil burns up and if there is dust in the system it can catch fire. Oil filled heaters never get over around 160 degrees so they are safe at all times. They also do double duty drying off clothing that gets wet when you walk down the dock. Look for a short height version that can fit under chart tables and into smaller spaces. Kenwood makes one as does DeLonghi. They are perfect for sail boats. Our wiring doesnt let us run them both at full power but even so we get a lot of heat out of these little units.

After we get to the point that the heat from the oil filled electrics is not enough, we add the Webasto air heater that came with the boat. It is a very pleasing heat that keeps everything dry. The webasto runs off the main diesel tank and we do have to be very careful not to run out of fuel, but it doesn't burn too much and we get a good month of heat from around 10 gallons. 

We found that also keeping our overhead hatches cracked open to allow air to move is essential. The heat creates a temperature gradient at the hull and deck that creates lots of condensation. Allowing the moisture to filter out through the hatches and dorades keeps it from building up inside the boat. Our first year was very cold and we never opened the hatches even once. We clamped down the dorades and hunkered down. It was a wet mess. This year, while warmer, we opened the hatches and vents and were completely dry. Everywhere. Sure, some of our heat went out the vents, but so did most of the moisture. I am expecting a very cold winter this year so I will try this out again and see if it still works as the temperature drops.

The other thing that I love on our boat, and that will be a part of any future vessel, is a fully enclosed cockpit. It is one of the most important items of winter living we have. The canvas was recently updated when we had our dodger replaced. The effect of having both an "airlock" and a "mud room" on deck makes heating the boat easier and much more effective. We store our winter coats in a Rubbermaid bin that holds lots of stuff we use in winter. That way we can keep the clutter out of the living areas. The companionway becomes the second point of entry to the boat and keeps us from losing lots of heat every time we open the boat to take on provisions or move things around. Fully enclosed cockpits are not possible on all boats so look closely to see if yours can be modified for this. If you can do it, get one! In a colder winter location there is no better way to keep yourself comfortable than this. You can take it all off in the summer so there is no down side. We store our steel on the dock and put the canvas in our dock box. Nothing to it.


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## kranchroy

I am using diesel hot water system. The main advantage of this system is lowered maintenance cruise and longevity of use. It allows great flexibility in what areas you warm. You can turn on without some piece you want to heat.


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## w1651

I like the sail your boat to the Bahamas idea posted earlier.


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## joeleitz

[edit]

An electric heater or a small propane heater works well. Be careful with a propane heater though and make sure you have adequate ventilation. Also, don't run any propane heaters for an extended period of time in a small enclosed space. They're good for just warming up the boat a bit in the winter.


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## michaelmrc

our winters here in bc can get a little cold and a lot wet. i run 2 small caframo marine style electric heaters and when it gets really cold i fire up my dickinson propane heater. this unit has a dual chamber chimney so no issues of using up O2 from the cabin. this heater works really well for my boat.


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## CaptainForce

We've spent 39 winters living aboard and I would agree with eryka that the absolute best strategy is to decrease your latitude! Take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## Tim R.

I have a liveaboard boat under contract right now that has Marine Air reverse cycle heat/AC. The ductwork is already there and I have an 11gal water heater with 110v element. We will be at a slip for the winter. The boat will be shrink wrapped with clear shrinkwrap down to just above the toerail to provide some air circulation on deck.

- I want to keep the cabin dry
- have 3 different zones with programmable thermostats
- Run on existing 210gal diesel tanks

What will work best on my boat? FHW or FHA.


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## rmeador

I have no experience yet, but my research has suggested that a forced-air solution is the best for warming and, more importantly (or so I'm told), drying the boat. I'm going to get an Espar when I get my boat. Should be around $6k installed.

Mostly I just replied to say this: Tim, what kind of boat do you have? I've never heard of a sailboat smaller than a megayacht with 210gal of diesel! But then, I'm a newbie.


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## sailingdog

If you already have the ductwork, and you have 210 gallons of diesel, you need to get one of the diesel forced hot air systems. Nothing else really would make any sense. As for Espar or Webasto-that's basically personal preference IMHO. I've used both, and don't really see either as having a big advantage over the other. Capacity, zone control, etc, should be the deciding factors.

I'd imagine it's a pretty big boat with 210 gallons of diesel and THREE Zones. BTW, unless the A/C system has three zones, you may not be able to re-use the ductwork for the heat, since setting up the three zones with the existing ductwork might be a problem. .



treilley said:


> I have a liveaboard boat under contract right now that has Marine Air reverse cycle heat/AC. The ductwork is already there and I have an 11gal water heater with 110v element. We will be at a slip for the winter. The boat will be shrink wrapped with clear shrinkwrap down to just above the toerail to provide some air circulation on deck.
> 
> - I want to keep the cabin dry
> - have 3 different zones with programmable thermostats
> - Run on existing 210gal diesel tanks
> 
> What will work best on my boat? FHW or FHA.


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## rmeador

Oh, thanks SD for reminding me I actually have something constructive to contribute after all. In my research for heating on my future boat, I spent quite a bit of time talking to Ed Hamilton at Ocean Options in RI. They're the only local Espar dealer (and AFAIK there is no local Webasto dealer). Ed has repeatedly told me that you cannot use the same ducts for the Espar and an air conditioner. He says that the heat from the Espar is just too much and will melt the AC ducts. He also says that because the heat vents should be located near the floor and AC vents near the ceiling, that's another reason you can't do it. He didn't seem to have a good explanation for how reverse cycle systems manage to pull it off... yet I don't think he is trying to screw me. I think he knows what he's talking about and perhaps doesn't know how to articulate it.


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## sailingdog

The air temperature generated by a reverse cycle heating system is probably the reason they can get away with it... the warm air is much cooler than what you'd get from a diesel fired heating system.



rmeador said:


> Oh, thanks SD for reminding me I actually have something constructive to contribute after all. In my research for heating on my future boat, I spent quite a bit of time talking to Ed Hamilton at Ocean Options in RI. They're the only local Espar dealer (and AFAIK there is no local Webasto dealer). Ed has repeatedly told me that you cannot use the same ducts for the Espar and an air conditioner. He says that the heat from the Espar is just too much and will melt the AC ducts. He also says that because the heat vents should be located near the floor and AC vents near the ceiling, that's another reason you can't do it. He didn't seem to have a good explanation for how reverse cycle systems manage to pull it off... yet I don't think he is trying to screw me. I think he knows what he's talking about and perhaps doesn't know how to articulate it.


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## Tim R.

First of all the boat is not that big. It is a Caliber 40lrc. I want zones for the aft cabin, salon and forward cabin.

As for zones I could run ducting for an additional zone. I could also upgrade the existing ducting to better handle the increased temps of the diesel fired heater. 

The AC has returns down low. Could I not just reverse the flow similar to a residential system? Does the reverse cycle AC/heater not already do that?

But it sounds like a hydronic system might work best. The hoses dont take up much space but I would have to lose some storage to accomodate the radiator/fan combos.


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## xxuxx

*For the Berry Best Heat......*

Coal, its cheap and lasts a good quality heat ....supports coal miners and their daughters.
Once you go coal......you made your 1st Goal!!! (go rangers)


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## QuickMick

i just use two ceramic heaters (as mentioned above), and actually find i have to turn them down .... then again im in north texas so it usually doesnt get too bad. and i tend to run on the warm side anyway.... i have found though that with guests (call me crazy, but women seem to tend to be colder) in uhhhh..say, situations where layering up wasnt an option i have gotten a few remarks.... lol.


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## sailingdog

Not a useful solution for a boat that will be cruised... since you don't have unlimited 110 VAC at anchor.



QuickMick said:


> i just use two ceramic heaters (as mentioned above), and actually find i have to turn them down .... then again im in north texas so it usually doesnt get too bad. and i tend to run on the warm side anyway.... i have found though that with guests (call me crazy, but women seem to tend to be colder) in uhhhh..say, situations where layering up wasnt an option i have gotten a few remarks.... lol.


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## QuickMick

guess it just depends on how much heat you need and how often you need it.


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## SVArgo

*Forced Air Heater Vent Efficiency*

For all those that have the forced air furnace (and I'm specifically looking at an Espar DL5), how many vent outlets do you have and how well do they work at heating the entire boat evenly.

I'm on a 37 Pacific Seacraft, and due to the tightness of the routing, will probably only be able to get a single outlet in the salon. I'm curious to see if anyone else has this type of setup and if the convection and mixing from the single outlet is adequate.

Regards, 
Ryan


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## oceanscapt

I've read a couple articles on folks doing this but can't find them or any links. 

I'd think a diesel fired heater and a few fans would help ward off the chill. If you mounted it near the center of the boat then you could probably heat the entire boat with a largish one. And I'd go for the next size up in heat output.

You might consider adding insulation to the inside of the boat, especially above the waterline and overhead.

A number of folks have put up some kind of awning to protect the boat from snow and sleet. You may have to shovel a bit.

Make sure the water tanks are as full as you can, consider wrapping insulation around the pipes, consider a diesel fired water heater. and stock up on propane.

And if there's a chance of the water freezing, you might want to consider a bubbler alongside. It aerates the water, reducing the chances of the ice damaging the hull.


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## SVAuspicious

I have an Espar D4 on my HR 40. One outlet in v-berth, two in salon, one in head, one in aft cabin. Heat is pretty even with a little adjustment of the vanes on the outlets. I keep the v-berth and aft cabin a little cooler for sleeping, and the head a little warmer to keep the seat warm. *grin* Works great.


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## killarney_sailor

I have 5 outlets (forward and aft cabins, forward and aft heads, salon) and the boat is lovely and warm even in sub-freezing weather. Unit was installed by pros and it was remarkable how they were able to route the ducts. Having so much duct work is good and bad - keeps those lockers completely dry, but takes up quite a bit of space.


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## SVArgo

Thanks guys, I'd also be curious to know how many of those outlest are "closeable". As i understand it, those don't contribute to the overall performance rating. I'm struggling with understanding the pressure drop requirements for the Espar system, the technical information is a little conflicting. 

Thanks again, 
Ryan


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## xxuxx

*Coal*

Make your life simple and go with coal!!!!!!!!!!


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## eryka

SVArgo said:


> For all those that have the forced air furnace (and I'm specifically looking at an Espar DL5), how many vent outlets do you have and how well do they work at heating the entire boat evenly.
> 
> I'm on a 37 Pacific Seacraft, and due to the tightness of the routing, will probably only be able to get a single outlet in the salon. I'm curious to see if anyone else has this type of setup and if the convection and mixing from the single outlet is adequate.
> 
> Regards,
> Ryan


Yes, and yes! We have a somewhat similar setup to what you describe, a Webasto heater with one outlet only in our CSY33. The single outlet is under the companionway stairs at the back of the salon and points directly forward toward the v-berth. No doors, straight shot to the bow. There are 2 small 12-V circulation fans at the foot of the v berth for mixing. This system alone is sufficient in Chesapeake winters, except for an auxiliary electric heater in the head. We sometimes run an oil-filled space heater near the mast just because we don't pay for electricity at our marina and do pay for kerosene/diesel, but the Webasto alone is sufficient, proven during electric power outages. Like you, we didn't want to eat up too much space with ducting, and it wasn't necessary. The v berth can get cool at night, but we like to sleep a bit chilly anyway. We don't have a headliner but tape reflectix (that silver bubble wrap stuff) to the inside of the overheads and lockers.


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## raydeeoh

Looking for real-life experience on Dickinson Propane "fireplace" heaters. We sail in the PNW - southern Georgia Strait during the cooler months. Thanks.


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## raydeeoh

michaelmrc, can you email me to discuss? Since I have only a couple of posts, the sailnet forum gods don't deem me worthy enough to PM you... my email is my nickname at yahoo.com Thanks, Robert.


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## MacGyverRI

I use a Propane 10,000 BTU Blue flame thermostat controlled, vent-less, free standing heater (can be bulkhead mounted) w/ a small fan on the floor to help circulate air. It was only $129 at Lowes.

*You need fresh air vent/s* coming into the boat and I also crack the hatch just a tad. My 27' boat is 72-74F in 0-20F outside temps. with the thermostat on 3 or 4 (10 max). I only use 2-3, 20 lb. tanks on an avg. winter month in Rhode Island (New England).

I also have a CO alarm, smoke detectors along with a "Safe-T-Alert" (tm) Gas/flammables/battery fumes etc. alarm system for added safety.


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## vintageray

My boat has a Tiny Tot, sort of a black iron wood stove. Burns charcoal or wood. Really nice.


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