# So, who has the right of way here?



## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

NO FREAKIN' WAY!!! A tanker versus a pink-kited-racer at Cowes week? Who wins this one?






Oh snap!


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## PaulfromNWOnt (Aug 20, 2010)

Tanker under tow.... Still the kid with the biggest toy I guess. Looks like the sailboat saw it coming but had trouble vacating the area.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

The tanker was restricted in it's ability to maneuver, therefore it was the stand on vessel (there is no "right of way" in the rules). The tanker was not being towed, it had a tug being towed from the stern to assist turning, slowing, etc.
Basically, the guy in the sailboat was playing a dangerous game, and he lost.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

jrd22 said:


> The tanker was restricted in it's ability to maneuver, therefore it was the stand on vessel (there is no "right of way" in the rules). The tanker was not being towed, it had a tug being towed from the stern to assist turning, slowing, etc.
> Basically, the guy in the sailboat was playing a dangerous game, and he lost.


The tanker is not showing a ball - diamond - ball; therefore not RAM. This may be a TSZ or a narrow channel.

You should see Juan de Fuca during the Swiftsure.

Actually there is one ROW in the Inland rules.



> RULE 9: NARROW CHANNELS
> 
> (a) (i) [Inld] A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable.
> (ii) Notwithstanding paragraph (a)(i) and Rule 14(a), a power-driven vessel operating in narrow channels or fairways on the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or waters specified by the Secretary, and proceeding downbound with a following current shall have *the right-of-way* over an upbound vessel, shall propose the manner and place of passage, and shall initiate the maneuvering signals prescribed by Rule 34(a)(i), as appropriate. The vessel proceeding upbound against the current shall hold as necessary to permit safe passing. [Inld]


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

I do race my old shoe and all I can say is that racing captains are crazy.
I'm more the cruising captain in my partnership of owning our boat but I like racing too.
We race in the Hudson River where there is current going both north and/or south depending on the tides and we get commercial traffic from time to time. Avoiding barges and other shipping is our foremost goal other then winning the race. 
That boat left their spinnaker up too long and could not manouver away from the ship; they flocked up and could clearly see the boat coming in, yet they hit them and doused their spinnaker the easy way, by having the ship tear it away.
Racing mentality can bring out the dipstick in all of us.


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## sailguy40 (Feb 6, 2010)

That was one huge ship and it dwafted that racing yacht. Seems like too many sailboats were crowding that ship instead of clearing a path. Bascially tankers are the 18 wheelers of the seas... big, super heavy and can't stop.


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## lapworth (Dec 19, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Who wins this one?


 Big boat wins. That sailor might want to give up sailing.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

COLREGS (Convention on the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea - 1972), Rule 18 (b) ii



> ...A sailing vessel under way shall keep out of the way of...a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver...


and Rule 3,


> ...The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" shall include but not be limited to...
> (g) The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel...
> (h) The term "vessel constrained by her draft" means a power-driven vessel which because of her draft in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following...


Considering the cardinal mark in the video (I can't access it from here, but remember seeing it) I would assume the (h) is the rule in effect, but (g) would also be true in this case.


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## HPLou (Feb 25, 2002)

The operator (does not deserve the title of captain) of the sailboat should not be allowed at the helm of another boat for putting the boat, his crews' lives as well as his life in danger like that.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Basic physics trump (or support, depending on your interpretation of which was the stand on vessel) the COLREGs on this one -- mass ALWAYS has right of way...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

More:

Yacht Collides With Tanker at Cowes Week Isle of Wight News: Island Pulse:

I blame the tactician. "Skip, we can pick up 5 more knots surfing that bow wave if we time it just right. C'mon! What do we have to lose? With the prize money we can finally get a new spinnaker!"

That's when the bowman jumps at :24.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

PorFin said:


> Basic physics trump (or support, depending on your interpretation of which was the stand on vessel) the COLREGs on this one -- mass ALWAYS has right of way...


I believe it can be put quite succinctly: *MIGHT IS RIGHT*


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Zanshin said:


> COLREGS (Convention on the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea - 1972), Rule 18 (b) ii
> 
> and Rule 3,
> 
> Considering the cardinal mark in the video (I can't access it from here, but remember seeing it) I would assume the (h) is the rule in effect, but (g) would also be true in this case.


RAMs must show the appropriate shapes or lights.



> (b) A vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver, except a vessel engaged in mineclearance operations,* shall* exhibit:
> 
> three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light shall be white;
> three shapes in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these shapes shall be balls and the middle one a diamond.
> ...


Those constrained by draught have more leeway.



> A vessel constrained by her draft *may*, in addition to the lights prescribed for power-driven vessels in Rule 23, exhibit where they can best be seen three all-round red lights in a vertical line, or a cylinder.


Constrained by draught vessels must show lights or shapes under rule 18



> Any vessel other than a vessel not under command or a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid impeding the safe passage of a vessel constrained by her draft,* exhibiting the signals in Rule 28*.
> A vessel constrained by her draft shall navigate with particular caution having full regard to her special condition.


Unless they do so they are a power-driven vessel.

I am assuming the regatta organizers had dealt with the appropriate authorities.

Not so clear cut. But a stupid move.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

treilley said:


> Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!


In this case the BUG! SPLAT!

No matter how you look at this, very dumb!

I get these coming thru puget sound often while racing. they have a shipping lane, CG is not happy if we racers get in the way of these rigs, or the Ferry;s that cross the sound......

In fact, July 1, heading to the SJ's, looked in the horizon, saw a BIG ship coming into the sound. Thought nothing of it at first, then it headed towards me, A BIG flat top with a tiny what appeared to be a bridge on one side.....Can we say OH SHEET! No to figure out where home base is, Everett, or bremerton.........I was all of a 1/4 mile directly in front of it, heading towards me in about 15-20 min, passed to its port about 1/4 mile, had one of the CG escort boats coming towards me at one time........after a clean pair of shorts, I was on my way!

marty


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## SailKing1 (Feb 20, 2002)

What surprises me is a vessel that size permitted to pass through the middle of a planned regatta of the size of Cowes. It would seem to be that planning and organization should be able to prevent this type of occurrence. 

I remember a few years back crossing through the channel over the Hampton Roads Tunnel during the Parade of Sail. There must of been hundreds of boats power and sail along with the tall ships trying to squeeze through and coming from the other direction at the height of the parade, a navy sub being led by a military police boat. Boats where scattering like crazy and it was amazing no one was injured. 

These things are planned and timed months in advance. It just seems to me this could be totally avoided.


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## CapitainMike (Apr 10, 2011)

I hope it was his boat and did noy belong to somebody else I don't think he had very strong reasons for an insurance.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

jackdale said:


> RAMs must show the appropriate shapes or lights.
> 
> Those constrained by draught have more leeway.
> 
> ...


This isn't the way in works locally. All pleasure craft must stay clear of any commercial vessel operating in designated vessel traffic lanes 24/7, lights or not. It's that simple and that clear. Certainly the UK has it's own rules/security arrangements for similarly tight waters just as Canada's differs from the US. There's a thread about this incident over on Sailing Anarchy. Some of the posters with local knowledge have piped in and say that they're required to keep 1km clear of the PATH of a commercial vessel. Yes, the skipper was an utter idiot that endangered the lives of his crew. Maybe attempted manslaughter? That's for the barristers in the UK system to sort out. Doubt if anyone will be insuring that particular owner in the future though.

Regarding the other boats, we have to remember that telephoto lenses compress depth. What you're seeing is not necessarily what you get.


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## lapworth (Dec 19, 2008)

SailKing1 said:


> It just seems to me this could be totally avoided.


I agree you would think most people would see a 300' boat. Also avoid naval ships, they might open fire before you get that close.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

CapitainMike said:


> I hope it was his boat and did noy belong to somebody else I don't think he had very strong reasons for an insurance.


The insurance policies I know of specifically exclude races from coverage. I believe the skipper is S.O.L. in this case.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

puddinlegs said:


> This isn't the way in works locally. All pleasure craft must stay clear of any commercial vessel operating in designated vessel traffic lanes 24/7, lights or not. It's that simple and that clear.


I mentioned the possibility of a TSZ in an earlier post. As I often go down Juan de Fuca, I am well aware of Rule 10.



> (j) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall
> not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following
> a traffic lane.


It says nothing about recreational or commercial vessels.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Zanshin,

Many policies at least here in the states, do have a non- race clause per say, as does mine, BUT, being as I am racing a local sailboat, or if doing a predicted log race, I am covered. If an offshore or a highspeed race of some sort in a powerboat, I am not covered.

Needless to say, this could go both ways.....

marty


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

SailKing1 said:


> What surprises me is a vessel that size permitted to pass through the middle of a planned regatta of the size of Cowes. It would seem to be that planning and organization should be able to prevent this type of occurrence.
> 
> ...
> 
> These things are planned and timed months in advance. It just seems to me this could be totally avoided.


He could have been on an alternate strategy. We often setup our race courses so there are multiple courses around island and other obstructions. Makes it more interesting and gives folks a chance to roll the dice on an alternate strategy.

I wonder if we will see tankers going thru the next AC course?


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

From The Cowes Week Sailing Instructions



> B17 coMMeRcial shipping
> B17 .1 southampton harbour Byelaws (changing RRS 60)
> (a) Boats shall observe the Associated British Ports (ABP)
> Southampton Harbour Byelaws 2003 (see page 12) at all
> ...


http://www.aamcowesweek.co.uk/web/download/2011/AAMCW11-BGSailingInstructions.pdf

That would suggest the skipper was in the wrong.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

No way to apply the colregs from just that video. You do not know what is happening around these vessels to apply any rule with any certainty.

The best rule is to avoid collision.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

This chart does show the position two West Cardinal buoys

http://www.aamcowesweek.co.uk/web/download/2011/AAMCW11-WGRaceChart.pdf

suggesting the skipper violated the Sailing Instructions.


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

I agree with Sailmike1. Why is the regatta running a course with a ship coming thru and why did the harbour masters allow this to happen? There were a number of sailboats far too close to this tanker. I blame the harbour people and the race organizers but ultimately the skipper of the boat

The big blame for the mess has to be with the organizers though...

My $0.02 . Here the regattas are organized with shipping. Is cooperative

Mike


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

mikehoyt said:


> I agree with Sailmike1. Why is the regatta running a course with a ship coming thru and why did the harbour masters allow this to happen? There were a number of sailboats far too close to this tanker. I blame the harbour people and the race organizers but ultimately the skipper of the boat
> 
> The big blame for the mess has to be with the organizers though...
> 
> ...


Read the SI's and check the chart I posted.

The skipper violated the SIs.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I'm thinking it was the skipper that bailed at :24.

In any case, no one (that knows anything) will ever sail with that chump again.


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

*rule 1*

All this rule quoting leaves out the general rule: don't hit them; don't let them hit you. In the final analysis that is the ultimate rule. Avoid collisions at all cost, break other rules if necessary to obey this one.
Not under anybody's wildest imagination could that tanker have stopped or turned to miss that moron.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

junkrig said:


> All this rule quoting leaves out the general rule: don't hit them; don't let them hit you. In the final analysis that is the ultimate rule. Avoid collisions at all cost, break other rules if necessary to obey this one.
> Not under anybody's wildest imagination could that tanker have stopped or turned to miss that moron.


 Actually it is Rule 2 



> RULE 2
> Responsibility
> (a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner,
> master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to
> ...


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

jackdale said:


> Actually it is Rule 2


Thanks. Thats the one. I was too lazy to go dig out my book but that's exactly what I was driving at. There's no rule in the book that could possibly justify doing something so un-seamanlike.


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## speciald (Mar 27, 2007)

Tonnage rules apply here.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Smack – After seeing this video, I guess you can add the “anchor drop” to your repertoire of spinnaker take downs. This might be one of the rare instances when a samurai drop is called for.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Let's think for a moment about the choices the ship's skipper/pilot had. He/she could have tried to stop....yeah, right. He/she could have tried to change course, and wound up in potential conflicts with a half-dozen other sailboats who WEREN'T in the way in the first place. Or, she/he could just do the only really sensible thing: sound the five-blast "you're about to become flotsam" warning, hoping the little boat skipper comes to his/her senses in time to get out of the way. 

I really don't see any other options.

BTW, on SF Bay I've seen tugs running "interference" for the big boys; using their bow wakes to "push" sailboats out of the channel, and/or keep them from getting into the channel, ahead of a whole lot of unstoppable steel.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> Smack - After seeing this video, I guess you can add the "anchor drop" to your repertoire of spinnaker take downs. This might be one of the rare instances when a samurai drop is called for.


Or you can just chunk it over the side:






I bet the chunky Colonel Sanders dude bought the beer that night. Useless.


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## CapitainMike (Apr 10, 2011)

Unintentionally made a good drogue


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## centaursailor (Nov 7, 2010)

Fecking mad place on a race day ,sailed there a few years ago.
UK sailing courses tend to steer clear of the term *Right of Way *as a principle of sailing.
This old chestnut is often used to warn of the danger
_*Here lies the body of Michael O'Day
Who died maintaining his Right of Way.
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along,
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.*_
The preferred terms are stand on and give way vessel.
The golden rule is that collision avoidance is everyones responsibility and those likely to come off worse best keep clear.
Safe sailing.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Right of way is not found in the International Colregs. There is one reference in the Inland Rules.

Both Give way and stand on vessels have obligations.


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## mgmhead (Jan 14, 2007)

Looks like the tanker rammed a harmless sailboat. Then, just as the sailboat was able to get away, the tanker dismasted it with a grappling device affixed to it's bow. The tanker was Norwegian, they are known to have a temper. (I think it's the fish paste that does it)


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## simpsoned (Jun 6, 2006)

This goes back to the 900 pound gorilla rule...and I guess we know who the 900 pound gorilla is in this case...


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

mgmhead said:


> Looks like the tanker rammed a harmless sailboat. Then, just as the sailboat was able to get away, the tanker dismasted it with a grappling device affixed to it's bow. The tanker was Norwegian, they are known to have a temper. (I think it's the fish paste that does it)


Seeing that this thread is still going, I might as well post this here since it sums the entire sad situation up nicely I think:










'nuff said..


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Hartley18 said:


> Seeing that this thread is still going, I might as well post this here since it sums the entire sad situation up nicely I think:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Except in this case, the big un took the bait and hooked the little un....then threw it back.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Except in this case, the big un took the bait and hooked the little un....then threw it back.


I can understand that.. not liking the taste of fiberglass meself much.


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## mdbee (May 2, 2007)

*Another rule to consider*

Not sure if anyone posted this bit of information:

Notice "Caution One." Someone from another site found this. It was said that the ship was in that area. This notice was also posted with the race rules. I think this would take precedent over the standard maritime rules.


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## brpyrate (Jul 24, 2011)

*Too Easy*

If the "Captain" of the Sailing Vessel were an Aircraft Pilot,
Would He/She still have an Airman's license?

(ANSWER is, NO!)

The Captain, is always the Captain...
Until He/She ENDANGERS Crew/Supercargo/Vessel.
(Unfortunately, the "Until" portion is invariably determined by a Marine Board of Inquiry, After the Facts!)
AND there's no MBI that CAN relieve this Captain of Repeating this Idiocy, Tomorrow.


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## CapitainMike (Apr 10, 2011)

jackdale said:


> Right of way is not found in the International Colregs. There is one reference in the Inland Rules.
> 
> Both Give way and stand on vessels have obligations.


If you think you *might!!* get away with it you more than likely won't. Then don't.

Always safety first!!!


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