# Heat Help



## WadeNooy (Jan 18, 2013)

Hello Sailnet Community

I am purchasing a 42' boat to live aboard in the Pacific Northwest. She's a beautiful boat and I absolutely adore her, but there are two glitches:

Heat and Heat

1) Heating the air: She has no heater on her because she was used for cruising in warmer climes... so here is my first question:

I am debating space heaters versus installing a more 'substantial' system. I have heard that the drip heaters and propane heaters are not necessarily designed to be used heavily... but I have a hard time trusting a space heater (especially when I am away.)

Wondering what others do? And if you just use space heaters, it seems like all 1500 W heaters are essentially the same... (assuming similar safety features) despite differences between things like infrared or ceramic... Thoughts?

Which brings us to concern number 2: 
Heating the Water
She has ONLY an engine heater on an 11 gallon system. So no electric. Do I install just an electric? The reviews of the ones at West Marine seem horrible. Which ones are people using and loving?

All thoughts and advice are appreciated. (it is a semi-moderate climate, but still damp and chilly here)


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

I have an electric heater going all winter in our boat to keep it dry and for freeze protection. I replace it every couple of years (West Marine brand) so I don't lose sleep about it, although I know people say to never leave one running if you are not aboard (what is the option?). I would also advise you to consider some form of heat while you are sailing/cruising. Even during the summer cruising months we end up using our heater some times, and use it full time during the rest of the year. We installed a forced air diesel heater and love it (Wallas), many people recommend the Dickinson propane bulkhead heater, and the engine coolant (bus) heaters are great for when the engine is running.
Can't tell you much about hot water heaters, we have one that uses engine coolant or shorepower and I've never had to mess with it (probably just jinxed myself for saying that).
Oh, welcome to SN!


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

If you're living aboard you might want to invest in the more substantial system. A good local reference book on the subject has been "The warm dry boat" and you can usually get copies at the Boat Show and at Captians. I lived in a HR 41 with electric plug in heaters and it worked well that but was a warmer clime. A key is that not using a heater that generates water. Anything that burns makes water and you need to deal with the venting. Keeping the humidity down is what makes the boat comfortable. A forced air system will do it but at a cost and complexity that may be necessary if your primary use is alongside where your have shore power As for showers, I generally ambled down the dock to the marina shower rather than run the engine to heat up water. Running the engine unloaded is reeeely bad for it. Going down the dock in the winter can be a pain. Most more modern engine boat hot water heaters have built-in AC electric heaters. Might want to check yours. I think that would be the most effective way to go.


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## Familycruisers (Dec 15, 2011)

Your water heater might have a plug where you can insert an element. Worth a look. If it doesnt have one then you might have to get one that does.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

We have an electric water heater that also recycles through the motor to grab heat when its running. We never leave it on when away, but can have hot water for a shower in about 20 mins. Even at anchor, by popping on the generator. I honestly don't know its exact capacity, but I would bet its only 5 or, at most, 10 gallons.

I've only used reversed cycle heat pumps around here for cabin warming in the shoulder seasons. Won't work in serious cold. I think if I were to need year round cold weather heat, I would do diesel. Either a bulkhead unit with chimney or I believe they make units that will integrate with the duct system for the air conditioning.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

Does the boat have air conditioning? If so you may want to switch to a cool/electric heat unit or a cool/reverse cycle heat type unit.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Reverse cycle A/C doesn't work well below 60 deg water temps and virtually not at all below 50.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

Will you be living aboard? Do you want to just heat at the dock or will you need it cruising? The answers will help narrow down your choices.

Our boat came with 2 reverse cycle AC heaters(Mermaid). we use the AC at the dock in the summer because we cannot always be facing into the wind. We use the heating component in the shoulder season at the dock.

For winter and heat at anchor we installed a 12v Hurricane H2 diesel furnace. It is a hydronic system and it actually helps keep the boat drier. The furnace is in the cockpit lazerette with exhaust out the transom so so worries about a flame adding moisture to the boat. It has a water jacket with a glycol mixture that gets pumped throughout the boat to small fan/radiator units. We have 3 zones with programmable thermostats. Aft cabin, Salon/galley and forward cabin. It was 9° last night and we were toasty warm. This extends our season in Maine from April to December now that we can comfortably anchor out and stay warm below.

Our fuel tankage is 210 gallons which usually gets us through the winter.

This heater also has the capability for on demand hot water and engine pre-heat. Having the heater in the engine area also keeps it from freezing so I never have to winterize. I do run the engine at least monthly to keep her well oiled.

See my projects link below for more info.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Reverse cycle A/C doesn't work well below 60 deg water temps and virtually not at all below 50.


Then it would be the A/C with electric heat option. But do we know if the boat has an air conditioning system installed?


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Those of you that live up there - could you also talk condensation and insulation issues?

I don't, but would like to hear about how it works out as I "may" get to cruising northward sometime.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

The key to moisture control is ventilation and heat. Most upper cabinets are cracked to allow air flow.

The hoses that supply the glycol help keep the cabinets dry. If you opt for one of these type of systems, I would highly recommend extra hose to run the perimeter of the boat for this purpose and also allow for future fan units if needed.

We have added extra insulation to our hanging lockers where we store our clothing. We open those at least twice daily which lets in the moisture. We use Damprid in the less used cabinets. We also run a dehumidifier during the day at the slip. We also put insulation in the hatches which helps. The worst area for moisture is the hull side of our bunk. We keep a rolled up blanket against it and ventilate the mattress every weekend. We also have some fabric under the mattress that promotes air circulation.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

May wish to look at Webasto as well. Good dry heat,hot water on demand, very low electric draw, efficient. Can do separate zones (living/sleeping areas) as well if you want.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Flagship Marine reverse cycle air conditioning and the heat side is 120volt electric furnace. Living aboard with this system in Toronto for six years. great product, great customer service


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

When I lived in British Columbia, we had a diesel stove for heat. Worked great, but I wouldn't recommend using it unless someone is on the boat.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Those reverse cycle systems cost $2K and up. Dockside, at your home marina, a space heater from the local hardware store is $50. Which would you rather put the wear and tear on (and ultimately have to replace?) We use one of those oil-filled guys that looks like an old-fashioned radiator - develops lower temp than a regular space heater, and therefore less problematic to leave. We also have a Webasto AirTop 2000 for when we're away from the dock.


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## Mobnets (Apr 24, 2011)

I tried an oil-filled instead of a ceramic for the first time during my last weekend on the boat in mid-October. That, plus the 2, 12 Volt cabin fans on low speed to keep the air moving around gently is the best portable heat solution I've tried so far when the boat is in the slip and shorepower is available.

Mobnets
1973 Paceship Chance 32/28 "Westwind"


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Reverse cycle A/C doesn't work well below 60 deg water temps and virtually not at all below 50.


Not saying you are wrong, but why do my home heat pumps work well in the low 30's. Is there really a difference between water cooled vs. air cooled compressors? I mean 30 degrees is 30 degrees, air or water.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Chuck - the reverse cycle "sucks heat out of" the water that runs through it. Suppose it subtracts 10 degrees from the input water and then pumps the cooled water out. If the input water is 40 degrees, its going try to exhaust water at 30 degrees? It would freeze up and pump out ice cubes. Air doesn't go through that phase change; that's the difference. Although, our reverse cycle works down to somewhere in the low 40s, at decreasing efficiencies.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

chuck53 said:


> Not saying you are wrong, but why do my home heat pumps work well in the low 30's. Is there really a difference between water cooled vs. air cooled compressors? I mean 30 degrees is 30 degrees, air or water.


We call that an ice maker


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

Wing, your explanation makes sense. I just had a real problem with the statement that they virtually won't work under 50 degrees. 
While I've never checked water temp, I've been on my boat in late fall in some cold weather and my reverse cycle unit worked just fine putting out warmer air than my home heat pumps.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

I'm using a cheap 1500 watt heater I leave on all day... I have the usual condensation on the hull walls not covered in insulation... but nothing that a paper towel and rag won't soak up... the bilge is completely dry and I try to keep it clean and dry... not a single drop is allowed there... other than that keep the heat and ventilation going. The biggest condensation maker is cooking in the boat... so I limit the amount I cook.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

chuck53 said:


> Wing, your explanation makes sense. I just had a real problem with the statement that they virtually won't work under 50 degrees.
> While I've never checked water temp, I've been on my boat in late fall in some cold weather and my reverse cycle unit worked just fine putting out warmer air than my home heat pumps.


We used ours right up to New Years with the water at 45 and nights in the 20s. 65 inside but it did cycle quite a bit.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The operating limit for incoming water temperature on my unit in heating mode is 40 -77 degs F. Outside air temp makes no difference to the unit itself.

I'm not saying it won't work at all below 50, but it does just run and run and run and puts out very weak heat. In 60+ water temps, it will cycle for a minute maybe.

The difference is most notable between early Spring and late Fall, where air temps are similarly low, but water temps are dramatically different.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

Outside temp makes a difference because the colder it is outside, the faster your boat loses heat and increases the cycling. On a warm day back in December and with water temps in the 40s the heat cycled very little. A few days later it was colder outside and the cycling increased.


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## WadeNooy (Jan 18, 2013)

Wow- this thread is really warming up! Thanks for all the comments so far, y'all. I'm thinking I will be starting with a space heater- that buys me some time to figure it out... I like the thought of a diesel heater, I think.

As for the 'plug' on the hot water tank, that will be the first thing I'll check! Cause that would solve all the problems- at a far lower cost. 

On the space heater: oil? Ceramic? Infrared? Does it really matter?


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## Mobnets (Apr 24, 2011)

WadeNooy said:


> On the space heater: oil? Ceramic? Infrared? Does it really matter?


I think it matters as they each have advantages and disadvantages. In the end it comes down to personal preference and how you want to use it.

The upper limit allowed for portable electric household space heaters is 1500 Watts. Most have this as their high setting and then one or two lower wattage settings as well as thermostatic control. I believe they all are now required to have a safety switch that turns them off if they are knocked over.

Space requirements:
The oil-filled units and the infrared tower units have a reasonably small footprint but are fairly tall, which unfortunately kept me from trying one for years. In the end I have found this design to be a good thing on the boat. My oil-filled has wheels and easily moves to the least obtrusive area in the limited sole space of a 32 foot boat's cabin. We have a relatively large head compartment where the unit can reside without obstructing access to the toilet when not in use (we don't have AC in the head). If I'm not cooking, I just roll it into the U of the small galley area and it can run without limiting travel fore and aft through the cabin.

Safety: 
Although you have to be careful with all of them, I think the oil-filled units provide the least combustion risk to surrounding materials and virtually no combustion risk with flammable vapors.

Noise: 
The Quartz and other fan-forced units are *NOISY* in the small confines of the cabin. The oil-filled units have no fan and are quiet.

Heating Characteristics: 
The quartz and other fan forced units heat up a space very quickly, but I've found that once you reach that point, they are hard to regulate the temperature . . . they end up cycling on and off constantly and you end up too hot or too cold a good part of the time.

The oil-filled units heat up an area more slowly but are easier to regulate the temperature with once they have the area heated. They hold heat when either turned off manually or cycled off by the thermostat. I use one or two of my permanently installed cabin fans on low speed to circulate the heated air more evenly throughout the cabin. They are much quieter than the integral fan units on the quartz heaters.

Mobnets
1973 Paceship Chance 32/28 "Westwind"


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Mobnets said:


> The upper limit allowed for portable electric household space heaters is 1500 Watts. Most have this as their high setting and then one or two lower wattage settings as well as thermostatic control. I believe they all are now required to have a safety switch that turns them off if they are knocked over.


Agreed... and 1500 watts is 1500 watts no matter what unit you buy... efficiency is what you want to go with... I have this heater... and it works extra efficient! I have these in the home in each room and is more efficient than the central heating in the house! Trust me when I say this heater is the best I've bought... it's ceramic and retains the heat for a long time... oscillates and has many features... and most of all it's 1500 watts!


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Keep in mind that electric heaters all put out he same amount of heat 1500 watts is 1500 watts, whether it comes from an quartz, ceramic or other heating element. None are going to be significantly more efficient than any other. The ones marketed as "Amish made" (that it turns out were apparently made by the Chinese Amish) Eden pure or life smart are all just expensive hype. I think a good solution is to use a combination of heaters, a force air to heat the space quickly and dry it out (as it moves the air around to pick up condensation) then switch over to an oil radiator as they seem to be able to maintain a more even temperature. The Vornado heaters seem to get generally good ratings and move a lot of air, good both summer and winter. On any space heater I would avoid any that have electronic controls as they tend to default to off if the power drops (common on shore power!) so I would stick to basic ones with physical knobs as controls. 

Another good solution is a propane/diesel/wood bulkhead heaters. These will give more heat than electric and each have there advantages and disadvantages. These will need some fans to move the warm air around the boat.

The best solution is to go with a diesel fired furnace/boiler as they will put out more heat than you can get from the shore power line. If you go water or air is going to depend on the boat layout and how you want to heat the space. Hot air will take care of a lot more moisture, while the hot water will give you kitchen and bath hot water as well from 12 volts and can give you hot showers when out cruising.

I have been thinking about a radiant heater solution using an electric water heater with a pump to move water around pex tubing under the sole and in the cabinets to keep them warm and dry. Not sure if it would work or not. 

The only thing I would leave on when away from the boat is the furnace/boiler as they have sophisticated safety systems. Perhaps an oil filled radiator on low as well, to keep things from freezing but only when really necessary. The vornado will heat the boat quickly. 

As you can tell I have put a lot of thought into this as I plan to live aboard year round in the North East. You will have a lot more moisture but it will be a lot warmer than the North East.

Of course a very good solution is to start around August or September and just sail south! Once everyone starts speaking Spanish you are likely far enough south to stay warm for the whole winter! That is my plan, but I will be listening for the steel drums on my coast the Caribbean sounds good about now! then you can go back up in the summer, or just keep going!:laugher:laugher


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

miatapaul said:


> Of course a very good solution is to start around August or September and just sail south! Once everyone starts speaking Spanish you are likely far enough south to stay warm for the whole winter!


Not so sure about that....New York City gets awfully cold in the winter.


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## mikehirko (Jul 15, 2004)

What make and model of 42' boat?

If you are going to be a live-aboard in the NW your boat needs a marine furnace to be comfortable. I have a 42' and just priced a Webasto DBW 2010Hydronic heater at the 2013 Seattle Boat Show. The Sure Marine brochure has a price for all the hardware: $7,292.87 + tax. They gave me an estimated quote of $9,000 to install it...that's right ~$9,000 for labor.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ Mike


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## Waterdawg43 (Oct 13, 2012)

Tim R. said:


> Will you be living aboard? Do you want to just heat at the dock or will you need it cruising? The answers will help narrow down your choices.
> 
> Our boat came with 2 reverse cycle AC heaters(Mermaid). we use the AC at the dock in the summer because we cannot always be facing into the wind. We use the heating component in the shoulder season at the dock.
> 
> ...


I can't begin to tell you how helpful this post was to me. To know you successfully kept your boat livable at 9* was a big concern as I watch the temps drop to negative numbers this winter knowing next winter I will be on a boat in CT.


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## Waterdawg43 (Oct 13, 2012)

WadeNooy said:


> Wow- this thread is really warming up! Thanks for all the comments so far, y'all. I'm thinking I will be starting with a space heater- that buys me some time to figure it out... I like the thought of a diesel heater, I think.
> 
> As for the 'plug' on the hot water tank, that will be the first thing I'll check! Cause that would solve all the problems- at a far lower cost.
> 
> On the space heater: oil? Ceramic? Infrared? Does it really matter?


Oil is great but takes up a lot of room. Infrared is more of a spot heater where Ceramic does not take up a lot of room and circulates the air. You can easily mount them permanently in a cabinet for an OEM look.

Infrared Heaters versus Quartz or Ceramic Heaters | eHow.com


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