# Pros and Cons of In-Mast Furling



## wingman10 (Sep 12, 2017)

Those of you with experience sailing with in-mast furling systems, what are the pros and cons?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Pros:
1 In theory, mainsail can be reefed to any size.
2. If you have a dodger and Bimini, it makes putting the sail away much easier. 

Cons: 
1) costs more than a conventional mast and sail.
2) shortens life of the mainsail even if the boat is most sailed without being reefed, and greatly shortens the life of the sail if the sail is reefed very often.
3) Reduces performance due to less sail area and poorer sail shape.
4) Reefed there is no way to control sail draft so typically sail is too full when reefed increasing heeling and weather helm and too flat for normal sailing.
5) More line to deal with since the outhaul typically ends up being as long as the halyard, and the halyard should be tensioned and slacked every time you deploy and store the sail. 
6) While newer in mast furlers have gotten more reliable than the earlier ones, and if used with care, they can be reliable. They still can and do jamb at the most unfortunate times. The worst part of that is that the jamb is likely to be a hiho (half in half out). 
7) They are one more piece of equipment to maintain.
8) Add weight aloft and more windage for greater heeling,
9) some make loud noises when anchored in a breeze.

For me, in mast furlers are a deal breaker, but there are a lot of people who like theirs.

Jeff


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Jeff any thoughts on structural stays v mandrills for in mast/in boom systems?


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

IMHO, the tradeoff is worth it on a bigger boat. Sail handling is so much easier.

We had one for 10 years, when we were sailing a 52' boat. We never jammed it, but came close. Tension on the outhaul is key when winding it up to keep it tightly wound. Sure was nice to arrive at an anchorage and roll up the window shade in seconds. Also nice not to mess with sail covers, flaking sails, etc. All of Jeff's negatives are accurate from our experience, but again, tradeoff in making things easy? What's that worth to you? 

On our current boat (38') we opted for lazy jacks and a single power winch for the halyard. Simple and easy, and hard to mess up.

So, bottom line, big boat, I'd do it again. Smaller boat, not worth it. Break point around 45-50'.

YMMV.


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## wingman10 (Sep 12, 2017)

capecodda said:


> IMHO, the tradeoff is worth it on a bigger boat. Sail handling is so much easier.
> 
> We had one for 10 years, when we were sailing a 52' boat. We never jammed it, but came close. Tension on the outhaul is key when winding it up to keep it tightly wound. Sure was nice to arrive at an anchorage and roll up the window shade in seconds. Also nice not to mess with sail covers, flaking sails, etc. All of Jeff's negatives are accurate from our experience, but again, tradeoff in making things easy? What's that worth to you?
> 
> ...


Thanks Capecodda,

We're considering a newer Catalina 320 for a lot of other reasons, but they are mostly equipped with in-mast furling. I have never sailed with an in-mast furler, but my sense is that aside from performance issues, rolling it in properly may be a technique/training issue.

However, we all know that when the s hits the f, technique and training may fly out the window. My sailing mates are trying to convince me that jamming one of those things always happens at precisely the wrong moment and that the only thing you can do is cut her loose. Any experience in un-jamming?


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## wingman10 (Sep 12, 2017)

Jeff_H said:


> Pros:
> 1 In theory, mainsail can be reefed to any size.
> 2. If you have a dodger and Bimini, it makes putting the sail away much easier.
> 
> ...


Jeff, good list, thanks.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Only had one bad experience and it was with the old Hood system. Coming home from Bermuda on a 59’ Hinckley center cockpit ketch was called up from my berth. Was told another crew was trying to reef the main while broad reaching. Didn’t head up before starting. System was on hydraulics and had vertical battens. He had jammed it with one double fold of sail on either side of the batten. So two layers of sail, then the batten, then two layers of sail. He tried to free it by rotating the mandrill and outhaul in and out but succeeded only to bend the mandrill. Both wind and wave continued to build. It was unsafe to go up the mast although we briefly tried. It was unsafe to leave the sail alone and go jig and jigger and let the main beat itself to death. The noise was amazing. The owner need to be restrained as a knife was taken to it. It ripped up parallel to the mast. The out haul was cut away. Gone. 
Met the owner weeks after as we were having drinks and dinner in the same restaurant. He told me the whole system was toast and the mast extrusion was bent where the jam was. He replaced it with a conventional mast and slab reefing. Also had to replace deck hardware and parts of deck where those fittings were placed. 
People I know who have in mast commonly won’t let anyone but themselves touch it. Even if offwatch they come up to deal with it. Say the lost sleep is worth the inconvenience.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

What's not to like about infinite reefing? What's not to like about having no sail cover, lazy jacks or reefing lines hanging off the mainsail?
Unless one is a full-on racer, where every bit of sail area and sail shape are the most important things to them.
I've been sailing this boat for 9 years now with an RF main, and we sail a great deal as a term charter boat, so I believe I speak from experience. I agree with most of what Jeff said, except the point that "They still can and do jamb at the most unfortunate times". "They" do not jamb, the operators jamb them. And most of the time they jamb because the main has lost its shape and is baggy in the center. Well, that isn't something one doesn't know has happened, so one would take extra care when furling or unfurling a baggy main and there would be no problems. IMO, they are about as likely to jamb as your genoa sheet winches are to over-ride under load; both require a lack of attention and proper operation.
I love the infinite reefing, just in or out an inch or two can make all the difference in keeping the boat footing along on her lines. But one of the most valuable things about RF mains is the fact that one need not come up into the wind to drop (furl) or set the sail. This I believe compensates for Jeff's thought on the RF main's wearing out faster, as the sail rarely if ever flogs! Anyway, I can set or reef/furl our main on any point of sail, including DDW, if the wind is light enough. Boy, is that nice!
If you are the sort that takes care when operating equipment and doesn't force things if there is a problem, then there is no good reason why you shouldn't have an RF main. But if you are the 'bull in a china shop' sort of sailor, then stay far, far away from RF of any kind.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Hey wing, as I said I'd probably not want one on a 32ft boat, but I don't think it's a disaster either.

You maybe should try it and see how it works on this setup. I assume it's not some sort of power furl at that size, some sort of line wraps around the mandril in the mast. Also, I assume you're thinking coastal sailing with this boat. 

I've had the nightmare that Out describes, but luckily so far only in my mind. But I know it can happen.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

capecodda said:


> I've had the nightmare that Out describes, but luckily so far only in my mind. But I know it can happen.


Exactly my point. The system didn't fail, the operator made the error. I surely wouldn't let just anybody operate the RF main, especially offshore, any more than I would our electric Lewmar 65ST's.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Capta fully agree-operator error. Would note until I develop trust in crew I leave the power winches off. Still, think until you’re talking about real big sails +/- isn’t in in masts favor. But note many love them. Seems there’s a variance between systems. Hear the Amel system maybe easy to work with. Any opinions on which systems are best?


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## Eder (Sep 21, 2009)

My main jammed for the first time in 6 years during a Pacific crossing. I had reefed from single to double numerous times overnite during a particularly squally area south of the equator and by morning had wrapped a batten around at an angle.
Pointing upwind and manually tugging the outhaul/furling unjammed the sail but I did tear it a bit.
I felt sorry for others with slab reefing that went thru the same crap with only a single reef in for the nite....
My sail is over 9 years old...new one otw but I will leave out the battens on this one till I'm not in the blue water anymore....no need with the trades.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

outbound said:


> Capta fully agree-operator error. Would note until I develop trust in crew I leave the power winches off. Still, think until you're talking about real big sails +/- isn't in in masts favor. But note many love them. Seems there's a variance between systems. Hear the Amel system maybe easy to work with. Any opinions on which systems are best?


The Amel systems bother me because they have two motors that must sinc up for the operation to go smoothly, but I have only used the Hood Stoway system since I first used it (do not know which) on a sailing school boat way back when. I have friends with the manual ones where the line wraps around a grooved mandrel below the boom.
Ours has a manual back up on the front of the mast that uses a standard winch handle, which I think is a necessity. Some I've seen use some sort of crank mechanism at the mast, which kind of defeats much of the value of the system, IMO.
I would like to switch from electric to hydraulic when I win the lotto, but I'm still waiting for that windfall.
Two things I've learned;
1) A RF main should be flatter than a hoisted main in the center, as the sail seems to have a bit too much belly when only reefed a bit or not at all. The foil does belly out toward the groove when sailing.
2) It is very important that the sail not be of too heavy a material. It should not bind in its housing when completely furled.
I don't think many of the sailmakers have sailed much with the RF main system, so they don't take some things like these into account when building the sails. It definitely needs to be specifically designed for the RF system, not just be a standard cut sail with a luff line intead of cars or slugs on the hoist.
I also regret not getting a tri-radial sail. I think it is a much better design for RF mains, even if a bit more expensive.
I think it goes without saying that battens are not a good idea on RF boomed sails. As we sail reefed much more often than not, I can't see how the area of the roach is of any real help. Just put up more headsail!


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

wingman10 said:


> . Any experience in un-jamming?


Yep. That's me unjamming one. Fun times rolling downwind.


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## MarcOneSailing (Jun 29, 2018)

If you never Sailed with an in-mast furling system someone should show you how it’s done correctly and what not to do! Our first time chartering a Boat we got an in-mast furling system. With all its pros it is still fairly easy to jam it if you play with the Hight of the boom etc. That’s what happened we lost two days of our vacation that way... Therefor I’m not a fan but if you know what you’re doing, or better, what not to do it is of course very convenient on bigger boats!


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

We sailed with an in-mast furler on a Newport-Bermuda race. It was miserable as far as being able to properly trim the sail for any performance. I think we may have been happy with how it was setting for about 15 minutes out of the four days we spent racing with a full crew trying to get it trimmed right. If it fouls, (ours didnt') you have to go up the mast to fix it. In-boom or slab reefing makes much more sense.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I have empirical proof that in mast furling is the best option for cruisibg boats: when I see a boat with just 1 sail up its the furling sail.

If you're just going few miles down the coast for a swim, lunch, next anchorage folks just do what's easy. Roll out the jib and let's just run with that. 
But the boats with in mast furling can run that out too. Easy-peasy, in a jiffy. 

I will never, ever, eva, never buy another boat without in mast furling.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

MarcOneSailing said:


> If you never Sailed with an in-mast furling system someone should show you how it's done correctly and what not to do! Our first time chartering a Boat we got an in-mast furling system. With all its pros it is still fairly easy to jam it if you play with the Hight of the boom etc. That's what happened we lost two days of our vacation that way... Therefor I'm not a fan but if you know what you're doing, or better, what not to do it is of course very convenient on bigger boats!


There is a learning curve. Sometimes it can take a couple of months if you don't sail a lot. A week on a bareboat is enough time to learn what not to do pretty successfully in those conditions, but the secret is to pay super careful attention, and if things start to go bad, *stop*, go back a bit and try again. You'll never win by forcing things.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

I remember when cruising multihulls became more common - lots of people were sure they were unsafe/unusable etc. Turned out that they are another option. Remember when jib furlers came out? Yep, many people had the opinion that they were unsafe/unusable. They are just another option, and a very popular one at that. Now, look at what people say about in mast furlers, I posit that people's comments reflect thier own preferences. It is just another option. The pros and cons can be stated in wildly different terms depending oun the positions of the people commenting. I do have a few things to add:

People comment on the complexity of the systems. All our boat systems. are built with technological advances. Any system can break down. Most don't.
In regards to operator knowledge, you bet that I will operate any system on my boat if I'm not sure the crew dosen't know how.
The list of "pros" should include not working on deck for most evolutions.
There is a lot of sail shape adjustments available to mast furler rigged boats. Probably not 1st choice for racers, but very efficient for cruisers.

I am very satisfied with the mast-furler system on my 40 ft boat. I would also like it on a Catalina 320. It's a viable option, depending on your personal preferences.


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## dorymate1 (Dec 6, 2011)

I sail RFs from 33-85 ft boats the ones that get stuck the most are caused by halyard tension. As the one in the picture Bleemus has sent. Notice the sag in the luff below him. Any time I had to clear a FR it has been by pulling up with the halyard or straight down. Blown out sails are another issue all together. 
I love full battens and an electric winch. with an integrated sail cover many of the cats have these. the main issue I see is closing up when done sailing. Many of the zippers fail or it's just to hard to get to them. Then the sun and rain shorten sail life dramatically.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Bleemus said:


> Yep. That's me unjamming one. Fun times rolling downwind.


Yikes - doesn't look fun.

I have limited experience with in-mast furlers, but the boat I sailed on that had it was difficult to get good sail shape because of the lack of horizontal battens of any kind. Is this a typical tradeoff, or are there better and worse furling mains?


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Lazerbrains said:


> Yikes - doesn't look fun.
> 
> I have limited experience with in-mast furlers, but the boat I sailed on that had it was difficult to get good sail shape because of the lack of horizontal battens of any kind. Is this a typical tradeoff, or are there better and worse furling mains?


It was kinda fun for an hour. The chef decided to "help" on a night watch and completely released the outhaul and pushed the button for the hydraulic furler. Oops. I awoke and they had sheepish grins on their faces and confessed. Had a cup of coffee and got it done. The spin halyard is eased because I was going to add more chafe protection after fixing the main.

The mains I have had better luck with tend to be cut real flat. Coming from a big boat racing background it is hard looking at them but the convenience of a furler can't be beat for cruising.


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## wingman10 (Sep 12, 2017)

Scotty C-M said:


> I remember when cruising multihulls became more common - lots of people were sure they were unsafe/unusable etc. Turned out that they are another option. Remember when jib furlers came out? Yep, many people had the opinion that they were unsafe/unusable. They are just another option, and a very popular one at that. Now, look at what people say about in mast furlers, I posit that people's comments reflect thier own preferences. It is just another option. The pros and cons can be stated in wildly different terms depending oun the positions of the people commenting. I do have a few things to add:
> 
> People comment on the complexity of the systems. All our boat systems. are built with technological advances. Any system can break down. Most don't.
> In regards to operator knowledge, you bet that I will operate any system on my boat if I'm not sure the crew dosen't know how.
> ...


Scotty, thanks for your broader perspective.

I am developing a good list of pros and cons.

For my particular situation, it seems to be coming down to a training issue. I sail with an inexperienced crew about half the time, so I may end of rolling the main in and out myself a lot until I get the crew trained properly. As always on a boat, have to understand best way to deploy systems and crew in any particular circumstance.

Thanks for all who have weighed in. Keep the comments coming.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

We sail a 46’ boat with electric winches, and a Dutchman. It’s a PIA to take the main on and off due to the Dutchman but you rarely do that. However helped a friend do that with a in mast system and it was just as much a PIA. If you go that way make sure there’s good access and you have good tools to get to the bits inside. Sail Cote is helpful. 
Personally I find single line reefing takes just as much time to train crew as inboom or inmast. But double line is just as convenient as inmast if things are powered and you get good sail shape. Still think KISS. To the point I put horns,and cringles on my main although they are never used. I want my boat to be safe and sailable regardless of what breaks. At the end of the day for an offshore boat that’s the goal.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Why is no one here discussing in-boom roller furling? Bob always recommends it over in-mast.

I have an older "around the boom type" which I'm very happy with in terms of ease of use and sail shape, slightly annoying not to be able to use the vang when reefed (apparently in the old days they had a contraption for that). Bigger annoyance for me is requiring absolute-end-of-the-boom sheeting, which won't let me do a trav on my bridge deck which would allow me more bimini options at the aft end of the cockpit.

Of course the newer in-boom designs solve all that.

Can't stand how the typical stack-packs look on the boom. Ugh.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

zedboy said:


> Why is no one here discussing in-boom roller furling? Bob always recommends it over in-mast.
> 
> I have an older "around the boom type" which I'm very happy with in terms of ease of use and sail shape, slightly annoying not to be able to use the vang when reefed (apparently in the old days they had a contraption for that). Bigger annoyance for me is requiring absolute-end-of-the-boom sheeting, which won't let me do a trav on my bridge deck which would allow me more bimini options at the aft end of the cockpit.
> 
> ...


Wow, we may have found the only person on the planet that likes an old fashioned roller boom. My hat is off to you sir!


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

In-boom sighting!

A friend of mine uses a in-boom furler. He is in his 60s and single-hands a well appointed Island Packet 31. I watched them install the boom a couple of years ago and happily give him crap about what it cost him, but he absolutely loves it and wouldn't go back.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Modern in-boom furlers and old style roller booms are two different animals. One has gone the way of the dinosaur 🦕 for good reason.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

when some hunter owner brags on their in mast main...i watch em return with shreds and without them seeing, i laugh my tail off. sorry folks., they donot work.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

zeehag said:


> when some hunter owner brags on their in mast main...i watch em return with shreds and without them seeing, i laugh my tail off. sorry folks., they donot work.


when some formosa owner brags on their bruce anchor...i watch em drag n drag across the anchorages and without them seeing, i laugh my tail off. sorry folks., they donot work.
It's not the gear, it's the operator.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Love our in-mast furler, but our mainsail is bagging out and it's getting finicky. A new sail will do the trick. I can reef, but don't think it's the greatest sail shape, especially now. Still, when I reef, there is enough wind to make anything go. 

I do not like electric furling systems, as they are dependent on a motor and having power. Ours has a screw-like drum, with a line back to the cockpit. Yes, we might put it on a powered winch, but it works just fine with a winch handle. Lately, since our sail is not as easy to furl, I've found the furling line to jump a track on the screw occasionally, which isn't good. But, it's clearly the sail, not the furling system. 

I would love to have a modern in-boom furler. I've never used one, but I like the idea that I could more easily deal with a jam, by just dropping the halyard. I'm told they are even more expensive. Not sure that's true. They are massive.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

zeehag said:


> when some hunter owner brags on their in mast main...i watch em return with shreds and without them seeing, i laugh my tail off. sorry folks., they donot work.


Ridiculous. I have sailed across the Pacific four times with in mast furlers. Twice upwind. They work if operated correctly just like any other piece of gear. The Hunters you are seeing from your Mexican anchorage that you never seem to leave are obviously not using them correctly.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

Bleemus said:


> Ridiculous. I have sailed across the Pacific four times with in mast furlers. Twice upwind. They work if operated correctly just like any other piece of gear. The Hunters you are seeing from your Mexican anchorage that you never seem to leave are obviously not using them correctly.


your time will come as it does with all in mast furlers. enjoy your fun while your sails still work. most of the folks i have encountered with in mast furling converted to other systems. defend it all you want, but, as i stated prior, your time will come. the ones i watched re enter harbors and marinas with shreds only went sailing in pacific in calm weather, shredded sail in 10 kts light air. funny but the owners owned boat for a few years and are allegedly cruisers. hunter passage, 45 ft enjoyed the most entertaining return to harbor. got award for best shredded sail. 
smooth sailing.

love how when these fails occur it is allegedly operator error when more fail than not. 
however, it is ones own choice what equipment to purchase and use. the owner of the passage 45 said he was most surprised when his failed. his boat and furling were only 3 yrs old. sail was only stuck 1/3 out. nice shredding.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Lots of mast furlers that work just fine.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

zeehag said:


> your time will come as it does with all in mast furlers. enjoy your fun while your sails still work. most of the folks i have encountered with in mast furling converted to other systems. defend it all you want, but, as i stated prior, your time will come. the ones i watched re enter harbors and marinas with shreds only went sailing in pacific in calm weather, shredded sail in 10 kts light air. funny but the owners owned boat for a few years and are allegedly cruisers. hunter passage, 45 ft enjoyed the most entertaining return to harbor. got award for best shredded sail.
> smooth sailing.
> 
> love how when these fails occur it is allegedly operator error when more fail than not.
> however, it is ones own choice what equipment to purchase and use. the owner of the passage 45 said he was most surprised when his failed. his boat and furling were only 3 yrs old. sail was only stuck 1/3 out. nice shredding.


It seems you are basing your statements on *ONE* boat and *one* owner who had owned the boat for a whole 3 years (but how many times had they actually been *sailing* that boat in windless Mexico?) versus someone who has *FOUR* Pacific crossings! 
Come on, I know you are not all that closed minded as to think that one boat/operator is a basis for such statements. My 9 years of actual almost daily experience (during the charter/cruising season) with an RF main aside, there are many more non-anecdotal positive statements than negative ones on this thread. And most of those are speaking from experience, not voicing opinions on something they have never used.
This is *not* unproven, new to the market technology. Ours is OEM, 1981. If it was even slightly as poor a system as you seem to imply, it would have died out, as so many 'innovations' have, over the last 30 plus years.
You may not want one on any boat you sail, and that is certainly your right, but to make a blanket statement, "your time will come as it does with all in mast furlers" really is beneath you.


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## Eder (Sep 21, 2009)

Of the 165 boats crossing the Pacific this Spring my guess is at least 1/2 had in mast furling including some buddies that did it in a 30 foot Hunter and are presently otw to Tonga.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

as i am constantly seeking improvements for my boat, i told you of one i saw. i have heard the horror stories of folks coming into port with their complaints about their equipment. you like this kind of insecurity at sea in open ocean with unpredictable issues? go for it. i prefer to know my sails will be reefed when i want them reefed, not when equipment allows for it. i willnot be caught at sea with issues due to inferior but oh so easy to use..UNTIL IT QUITS items. i ruled out "in boom furling" in 1989, i ruled out in mast furling when i watched the hunter, brand new and used only a few times return with shreds not sails in 2011. 
was enlightening to me. is sad itis not enlightening to others. i feel it is the loss of those insistent upon using these items with their feeling of oh it is so easy....until it quits. 
i have lost friends to knockdowns. i have lost friends to sunk boats and reefs. i RESPECT the ocean and potentials, probably more than many on these forums think they do. 
remember, only ignorant fools base their knowledge on 1-4 results. i prefer to see 100 before i choose something. i have only seen 25, so far. but you would not know that as you are so fast to diss anyone whose results are different than yours. enjoy your day.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I think traditional hanked on, slab reefed, mainsails have the edge on reliability, but they are far from bullet proof. Reefing lines fail, halyards get lost up the stick and sails still shred. 

I’ve had jams on both furling mains and jibs, but not enough to make me lack trust. You deal with it, just like anything else. For the foresail jam, I had to drop the 135 Genoa to the deck. The mainsail would retract, but it was jamming about half way out. It stayed in until the next port and I sorted it out.


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## Heller Gregory (Jun 3, 2016)

I love mine, I sail in the SF Bay & have to reef all summer with non-sailors as crew. When I first got it, it was the original 15 year old sail and it wouldn't work at all without someone yanking it out at the mast. Once I got a new sail on it, I can put the boat in auto and pull it out myself. One thing I do is cleat off the furler before I bring the outhaul all the way out so the base (foot?) doesn't come out. The other thing I do is hold onto the outhaul while furling it back in. I try to keep the boom @ 90 degree's.

I've been on boats where they jammed (including mine). All in all, for the purposes of my passengers, I love it.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have been thinking about this discussion and thought that Capta raised a good point about people who are not familiar with in-mast furlers being more prone to jamb one. That rang true with me. But I have been our cruising the past few weekends and have noticed a vast number of big (45 to 50 foot) Beneteau charter boats out there and they all had in-mast furling mainsails. 

I thought if ever there was a perfect case where jambs would occur with great frequency that would seem to be the case. And as if on cue, a fellow came into West Marine who works commissioning and maintaining charter boats here on the Bay. So I asked him whether they had a lot of problems with in-mast furlers. His answer was interesting. 

He said that they rarely have problems on the bigger boats but had a lot of problems with the 40 and less footers and so have gone to 'stackpack' style permanent lazy jacks and sail covers on the few smaller boats in their fleet. They had a lot of problems with in-mast furlers that had mainsails with battens and don't allow the owners to have vertical battens on the boats with in-mast furling. Even with that he said they do get calls for help but not all that often. 

He said that delivery skippers seem to have the worst problems with them. I asked if it was unfamiliarity, but he said it was because they can be in heavy weather with a partially furled sail for days at a time and that can result in a half-in/half-out jamb. 

I thought that was an interesting take that was different than I expected. 

Jeff


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## Seaman_3rdClass (Jul 3, 2014)

I am with you on this. Sailed a 40' Hunter for a couple of years with in-mast furling, which worked great until it didn't. Jammed halfway-in in a sudden heavy blow. Perhaps we didn't balance the tension on the furling line and the outhaul perfectly, who knows. But when it's blowing hard and you have get the sail in, that's when errors can happen. 
We have a conventional fully battened main on the current boat, which is a bit of a pain to hoist, but I know it will always drop when I release the halyard. Convenience vs. reliability/simplicity/sail shape. 
I noticed that every charter that we rented in the Caribbean had a conventional main with a sailpack/lazyjacks.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Jeff_H said:


> He said that delivery skippers seem to have the worst problems with them. I asked if it was unfamiliarity, but he said it was because they can be in heavy weather with a partially furled sail for days at a time and that can result in a half-in/half-out jamb. I thought that was an interesting take that was different than I expected. Jeff


I also find this very interesting. We often sail in 30+ knots of wind, not for days, but hours and have never had a jam. On the trip south, the main was well reefed for 8 or 9 days, but other than the dark and stormy night, winds were only around 20 and we were reaching.
I can see how someone might think this, with the center of the sail pulling the foil aft more than the top or bottom, but unless the original roll was way too loose, I can't see that this would really create a problem. 
But it still comes back to the original point; if you encounter *any* resistance or problem, *STOP* what you are doing immediately and reverse. You will never force your way past a problem, but a bit of in and out has always worked for us, even with our old, very, very baggy main.
No system is completely trouble free, especially if those operating it aren't paying attention. I have seen conventional mains where the slides have hung up and someone had to go aloft to free them. I couldn't furl our Yankee jib when I didn't keep enough tension on the furling line when letting it out and had to drop the sail in 70 knots of wind in the dark, at sea! Was I going to chuck the jib furler, or pay better attention in the future? 
There is a horror story for everything on a boat, from fin keels falling off to masts tumbling down. From spade rudders folding or breaking to seacocks crumbling in someone's hand. Cats tip over, monohulls sink. I could go on and on, but the point is that with good maintenance and good situational awareness, problems can be minimized, if not completely avoided. 
If you are afraid of an RF main, then you certainly don't want one on your boat, any more than you'd want a gasoline engine or a dripless shaft seal if those scare you.
From my experience, the infinite reefing and convenience that an RF main gives me are worth the risk that one day I may jam my main.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I find that 5-10 degrees of wind over the starboard bow, helps our main furler work optimally. Dead to wind flails all over and introduces creases and slapping stress. Given the direction our furler winds, having the sail/boom slightly off to port, allows for a smooth entry and exit. Just our setup perhaps.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> ....the halyard should be tensioned and slacked every time you deploy and store the sail. .....


I've never known anyone to do this, Jeff. Do you mean store slacked and tension when deployed? Is it to relieve wear and tear on the luff? It would seem, if you were to slack the halyard too much, it would cause a poor furling.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Took me 30 minutes to put my boom cover on, yesterday. Including pushing back my bimini, forward my dodger.

Hope I don't have to use my mainsail for the rest of summer. 

:crying


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## wingman10 (Sep 12, 2017)

Seaman_3rdClass said:


> I am with you on this. Sailed a 40' Hunter for a couple of years with in-mast furling, which worked great until it didn't. Jammed halfway-in in a sudden heavy blow. Perhaps we didn't balance the tension on the furling line and the outhaul perfectly, who knows. But when it's blowing hard and you have get the sail in, that's when errors can happen.
> We have a conventional fully battened main on the current boat, which is a bit of a pain to hoist, but I know it will always drop when I release the halyard. Convenience vs. reliability/simplicity/sail shape.
> I noticed that every charter that we rented in the Caribbean had a conventional main with a sailpack/lazyjacks.


Seaman, in the situation you described, what was the solution to the jammed mainsail?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Minnewaska said:


> I've never known anyone to do this, Jeff. Do you mean store slacked and tension when deployed? Is it to relieve wear and tear on the luff? It would seem, if you were to slack the halyard too much, it would cause a poor furling.


I do mean if a sail is on a furler, slightly slack the halyard when the boat is stored and then next time out tension the halyard for the conditions. When putting the boat to bed, I typically ease my jib halyard a couple inches. (The literature that they give you with new sails say to do that so you don't stretch out the luff.)

Easing the halyard when the boat is put away probably does not matter on a light air day when there isn't much strain on the halyard anyway, but it makes a big difference after a heavy air day when the halyards were seriously tensioned with the backstay cranked down. This is especially true when the boat is back at the dock or on the anchor the backstay is eased, further tensioning the halyards.

Jeff


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## Wompfish (Jan 18, 2018)

I operated a Gulfstar 50 doing day charters here in Hawaii for a while with roller furling. 

I had it jam 7/8s of the way out after a sudden wind switch, 35 gusting 40+. Sail wouldn't furl in or out. Guests on board. Had them go down below for safety. Every time I took tension off the outhaul the outhaul block would slam violently into the boom. Guests kids are now crying in the cabin. Trying to hold the bow to weather and control the outhaul at the same time while my crewmember worked the furling line. About 4000 lbs tension on the furling line and 15 minutes of working it got it furled about 80%.

Came back in to the dock with 30 knots off the dock. About 150 sq feet of mainsail still hanging out. 5 attempts at docking, now nighttime. Last attempt came in perpendicular to the dock at 8 knots. 30 feet away hard over and 3000 RPM in reverse, lassoed a cleat and winched ourselves in. Guests not impressed.

If I was singlehanding I would have had very poor options. Maybe try to cut the outhaul with thousands of pounds of pressure on it or flogging? Anchor and climb the mast by myself with a knife? Wait for the sail the beat itself to death?

I think having the ability to lower your sail in an emergency is worth any amount of inconvenience. I no longer operate that boat and the furling system was a major factor.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Wompfish said:


> I operated a Gulfstar 50.....


Those were made in the 70s. I completely acknowledge that any furler can jam, but I believe they've improved by multiples since then. Hanked on are not bullet proof either. I've seen slides jam, halyards lost, clews/tacks part, etc.

I didn't follow why the outhaul couldn't be eased. Could you have disconnected it, attached a new line and wrapped the mast with the sail? Far from perfect, but better than having 150 of sail up, while docking.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> I do mean if a sail is on a furler, slightly slack the halyard when the boat is stored and then next time out tension the halyard for the conditions. When putting the boat to bed, I typically ease my jib halyard a couple inches. (The literature that they give you with new sails say to do that so you don't stretch out the luff.)......


Interesting. I've never seen such literature, although, admittedly don't read all the fine print. I trust it's been there. New sails for me, after this season. I'll keep an eye out.

Ironically, I don't find myself putting as much tension on the halyard of a furling system anywhere near as much as a hanked system. I surmise the bolt rope in the continuous slot does a better job of flattening the luff.

Again, I've never known anyone to actually ease prior to furling. Hasn't been suggested on any bareboat either. The logic for it makes sense, but I wonder how necessary it really is.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

> Guests not impressed.
> 
> .


They should have been impressed.

. It sounds like you did a good job. Took care of their safety.


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## Wompfish (Jan 18, 2018)

Minnewaska said:


> Those were made in the 70s. I completely acknowledge that any furler can jam, but I believe they've improved by multiples since then. Hanked on are not bullet proof either. I've seen slides jam, halyards lost, clews/tacks part, etc.
> 
> I didn't follow why the outhaul couldn't be eased. Could you have disconnected it, attached a new line and wrapped the mast with the sail? Far from perfect, but better than having 150 of sail up, while docking.


Very true this one was about as early as the come. I think the possibility of the same thing happening is still there though and thing on boats tend to fail when you really need them not to. I've never seen another system besides in mast furling fail in a way where the sail isn't able to be taken down. I've worked probably 4-5 thousand sailing charters on 5 boats.

The outhal could be eased, it just made a lot of noise when it was. The bowline going to the outhaul car would have impossible to untie with the amount of flogging/ tension that was going on.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Wompfish said:


> Very true this one was about as early as the come.* I think the possibility of the same thing happening is still there though* and thing on boats tend to fail when you really need them not to.


"Possibility"... its possible that the universe is a computer program operated by Elon Musk a la Matrix.
Theres every possibility anything can happen on any boat anytime. 
So lets have a better word please, and associate it with this:



Wompfish said:


> I've never seen another system besides in mast furling fail in a way where the sail isn't able to be taken down. I've worked probably 4-5 thousand sailing charters on 5 boats.


In your experience how many times has it happened where the sail "isn't able to be taken down" or the problem resolved at sea?

If once per 4,000 charters I think thats fine as a risk.
If you think thats an unacceptable risk please say so.

If its once per 100 charters that to me would be an unacceptable risk.

As Moorings/Sunsail do not have in-mast furling for most of their Monohulls. Is this due to bad design of the furlers or the chance of operator error?

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Wompfish said:


> ......The outhal could be eased, it just made a lot of noise when it was. The bowline going to the outhaul car would have impossible to untie with the amount of flogging/ tension that was going on.


I think I would have cut it at the knot. Easier to think at a keyboard and arm chair quarterback, I know. In the moment, with frightened crew and high levels of stress, it's much harder.

In any event, given the pros and cons of in-mast furling, the real point is that we have more options for furling failures than most seem to teach or admit. I once sat in a lecture, about 10 years ago, given by some racing stud, who once crewed an America's Cup boat. The topic of in mast furlers came up and his input was that there were zero options for a jam. I recall him saying you would have to cut the sail down. My buddy and I looked at each other and kidded that we better install zippers.  Well, I've had at least two jams, since then, that come to mind and neither required anything destructive at all.

I'm glad we've walked through the HIHO scenario, so that I may have the presence of mind to cut the outhaul and wrap the main around the mast, if that were to ever happen to me. Come to think of it, one could cut the outhaul at the mast and pull the line through the boom to use as a pennant to help wrap. Crazy high wind makes this more difficult, for sure.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Jeff I’m curious. I have found for headsails it’s much less strain if I put on more backstay pressure via the hydraulics before roller furling. Once furled I let off the backstay then give a 1/4 of a pump to keep the seals good.
I’ve assumed having the boat sit with just a smig of backstay is like easing the halyard a bit. I pull the first few wraps of the roller furler by hand for safety to know everything is free and clutches are fully off before wrapping that line on the drum and pushing the button. So I can tell furling is easier with some backstay pressure pumped on.
My sails are vectron (Hood) and have very little stretch. There might be a bit of creep over time from manufacturers information. Have somewhere around 30k with them up shape is still good.
?Am I doing this wrong?

I should mention I’m a strong KISS believer. I object to below deck headsail furlers on cruising boats. Yes they make the boat prettier. Yes you can have end plate effect from deck sweepers. But neither are relevant to a cruiser when compared to downsides. A boarding wave over the foredeck can ruin your whole day with a deck sweeper and has no place on a cruiser.
Re running the furling line can be done without snakes or messengers on above deck. You can jury rig something and clear overwraps easier with above deck.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Oh should mention when rig was tuned by R.I. Hinckley rigger was told it was told it was tuned with this in mind by rigger. We always have some backstay on and even hard to weather with as much backstay as we ever use there’s still some significant excursion left. Mostly never go past 3000. The solent stay is a hanger and static tune is just to get as little head stay sag as possible when the sail is fully loaded. So hear I do keep that halyard quite tight.
?Does it make sense to ease that halyard when we are at anchor?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

outbound said:


> Jeff I'm curious. I have found for headsails it's much less strain if I put on more backstay pressure via the hydraulics before roller furling. Once furled I let off the backstay then give a 1/4 of a pump to keep the seals good.
> I've assumed having the boat sit with just a smig of backstay is like easing the halyard a bit. I pull the first few wraps of the roller furler by hand for safety to know everything is free and clutches are fully off before wrapping that line on the drum and pushing the button. So I can tell furling is easier with some backstay pressure pumped on.
> My sails are vectron (Hood) and have very little stretch. There might be a bit of creep over time from manufacturers information. Have somewhere around 30k with them up shape is still good.
> ?Am I doing this wrong?


I would not say that you are doing this wrong, but I am not sure I fully understand what you are saying relative to my earlier point. The point I was trying to make has to do with heavy weather sail trim and the adjustments that need to be made when the boat is no longer being sailed. In a stiff breeze, the sails should be flattened and may ultimately need to be reefed.

Depending on the boat, that means lots of halyard tension, lots of backstay tension, and lots of outhaul tension, perhaps lots of babystay tension. But there are virtually no materials out there which do not creep (elongate or compress over time when exposed to continued stress). The amount of creep that a material experiences is proportionate to the amount of stress and the length of time that the material experiences that stress.

So while these high loads are important tool to employ when underway in a strong breeze. Once the boat is done sailing in those conditions, everything should be eased so the sails, rig, and hull experience a minimal amount of continued stress.

This is not to say that everything should be allowed to simply hang loose. That is not what I am suggesting at all. Obviously there needs to be enough rig tension that the mast isn't free to move, and enough halyard tension that the sails are not bunching up as they are furled. There is also a question as to when the loads should be eased. In my experience, jib furlers seem to have a 'sweet spot', where there is enough forestay tension to avoid excessive sagging and halyard tension so that the sail furls without folds, but there is not so much tension that the rig is overly stressed or swivel binds when the sail is furled.

In that regard we may be discussing three different sets of backstay and halyard tensions: 1) Heavy Air- everything heavily loaded, 2) Furling- Everything at mid-loading, 3) Stored- everything eased.

At least on my boat, that means that the backstay is eased so that it has a very small amount of tension, (just enough to keep it from bouncing about or visually sagging) and the halyard and outhaul tensions no more than hand tight. Similarly on masthead rigged boats with adjustable babystays, it may mean that the baby stay should be tensioned in a breeze and eased at the end of the day.

It should be noted that on a boat which has a bendable mast, when the backstay is eased, the mast will straighten, and in doing so, the halyards will actually have added tension. So, on a boat like that, if the intent is putting the boat to bed with minimal tensions, the backstay should be eased first, then, with the mast straightened, the halyard should be eased to hand tight.

To some extent, as I read your above quote, it sounds like you are doing approximately the same thing that I do.

Jeff


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

We just made an offer on a new to us used boat. It doesn't have in mast furling but it wouldn't have mattered to me if it did. I like in mast furling. It's a 40 footer so I am comfortable with either. Much larger and I would have looked at in mast furling as much more important sailing double handed most of the time.


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## Wompfish (Jan 18, 2018)

Minnewaska said:


> I think I would have cut it at the knot. Easier to think at a keyboard and arm chair quarterback, I know. In the moment, with frightened crew and high levels of stress, it's much harder.
> 
> In any event, given the pros and cons of in-mast furling, the real point is that we have more options for furling failures than most seem to teach or admit. I once sat in a lecture, about 10 years ago, given by some racing stud, who once crewed an America's Cup boat. The topic of in mast furlers came up and his input was that there were zero options for a jam. I recall him saying you would have to cut the sail down. My buddy and I looked at each other and kidded that we better install zippers.  Well, I've had at least two jams, since then, that come to mind and neither required anything destructive at all.
> 
> I'm glad we've walked through the HIHO scenario, so that I may have the presence of mind to cut the outhaul and wrap the main around the mast, if that were to ever happen to me. Come to think of it, one could cut the outhaul at the mast and pull the line through the boom to use as a pennant to help wrap. Crazy high wind makes this more difficult, for sure.


I'm pretty sure most jams can be resolved by attempting to work the sail in and out especially on a newer system. For me I prefer slab reefing for the reasons that Jeff has pointed out.

I understand the appeal of roller furling on larger boats that are shorthanded. I think a stack pack with reefing lines is a better solution.

I'm not sure cutting the outhaul would be all that effective unless you only have to motor to weather to get home in which case keeping it on an slacked boom is probably only slightly worse. You wouldn't be able to wrap the sail around the mast. it would hang up on the spreaders and shrouds create a huge amount of windage and destroy itself very quickly. I think working it in and out will probably resolve 99% of jams. In a position where the safety of the vessel or passengers are in immediate danger the knife + bosun chair may be the best option.

That being said there's plenty of things on any boat that can go wrong and leave you in a bad situation with few options. If nothing went wrong there wouldn't be any good stories.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Wompfish said:


> .....You wouldn't be able to wrap the sail around the mast. it would hang up on the spreaders and shrouds create a huge amount of windage and destroy itself very quickly. I think working it in and out will probably resolve 99% of jams.....


I didn't mean to suggest this was plan A. Indeed, I cleared my jam, by working it. I was armchair quarterbacking the OP's scenario, where they could not work it out and had to land the dock with most of the main out in 30 kts of wind. While I appreciate the spreaders getting in the way, I think wrapping below them would reduce windage, compared to the scenario described in the OP. If the fix is the cost of a new outhaul, that's not all that different from the cost of some traditional mainsail failures.

Just making the point that there are options.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Been seeing “structural stays” inside masts and booms recently. Think having a 30’ to 70’ piece of metal rod bend inside your mast or boom is the ultimate screw up for in boom or in mast systems as in either case there’s no chance you can fix it at sea or furl.
Of course being able to strike sail is more important from a safety point of view than raising sail.
The idea seems quite sound. Wondering others thoughts or experiences with structural stays? Gets around the issue of weight.


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## wingman10 (Sep 12, 2017)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> "Possibility"... its possible that the universe is a computer program operated by Elon Musk a la Matrix.
> Theres every possibility anything can happen on any boat anytime.
> So lets have a better word please, and associate it with this:
> 
> ...


Yes, that is an interesting perspective. We make those risk analysis decisions all the time.

In a risk-analysis matrix, you could characterize an in-mast furling problem as a lower probability, but higher consequence event (as opposed to higher probability, higher consequence, which is what we all try to avoid).

So, what is an acceptable rate of occurrence? 1 in 500? 1,000?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

wingman10 said:


> So, what is an acceptable rate of occurrence? 1 in 500? 1,000?


For us, though I'm guessing, cause I'm not going to read through 7 years of sailing this IMF rig in the log, we are 1000's of times versus none on the IMF and 1 on the jib furler.
I think that puts things into perspective.


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## wingman10 (Sep 12, 2017)

capta said:


> For us, though I'm guessing, cause I'm not going to read through 7 years of sailing this IMF rig in the log, we are 1000's of times versus none on the IMF and 1 on the jib furler.
> I think that puts things into perspective.


So that is interesting. What specific steps have you taken to achieve that low (zero) rate of negative consequences on the IMF?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

wingman10 said:


> So that is interesting. What specific steps have you taken to achieve that low (zero) rate of negative consequences on the IMF?


Our last main was getting baggier and baggier each time we sailed, so more and more care had to be taken each time we used it. That taught us to *stop* immediately if there was the slightest problem and go back a few inches or whatever was necessary. And *pay attention*! Watch what we were doing, always.
With the new main it was a lot easier, but we still pay close attention to the furling and unfurling. We never luff up and let the sail flog when furling. We set it and furl it on any point of sail except directly into the wind, even DDW in light air; just keep the main sheeted in amidships.
We met a couple who couldn't set their IMF without her having to go aloft to unfoul it. When we met they were pricing a new, non-RF main mast and sail! I suggested taking the sail to a sailmaker and having it flattened a bit. A $300.00 fix instead of umpteen thousand. After that, they loved their IMF.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Yep. Flat is the way to go. The only time I have had trouble is when an older sails gets baggy. Restich it so it is flat and works like a dream. Want a fuller sail? Ease the outhaul a touch. Not perfect racing foil but these aren't racing sails.


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## Gregrosine (Feb 10, 2013)

We have a 35' Beneteau with in mast furling main. It works very well. It has jammed a couple of times, but was easily corrected. I think it depends on what kind of sailing one does. We are weekend sailors in our 60s, with a 2-3 week cruise every year on Lake Michigan. If I were getting a second boat, I think I would not go with in mast furling only because it doesn't point to the wind as easily, but I would make sure I had an electric winch to raise and lower the main. That said, I have seen others have problems with their lazy jacks. If it ain't one thing, its another.


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## wingman10 (Sep 12, 2017)

Gregrosine said:


> We have a 35' Beneteau with in mast furling main. It works very well. It has jammed a couple of times, but was easily corrected. I think it depends on what kind of sailing one does...


Thanks Gregrosine, I've talked with friends who have had similar learning-curve experiences with in mast furling.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I've always felt that in-mast furling was like a centerboard:
Perfectly good if that's something you NEED. Otherwise? A critical system that has moving parts which you can't readily access when something breaks.
So, I've avoided them like the plague.
Now I'm told some of the major sparmakers and sailmakers have been paying serious attention to those issues (Maybe it was Selden and North?) because they REALLY think a reliable system could be a good seller. But I think they'll need to do "demo days" to convince those of us who are from Missouri.


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## jb cruzan (May 24, 2015)

I found this thread very useful.Thank you to all those who contributed.


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