# "Open the pod bay doors, Hal..."



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Yeah, those Dock & Go joystick docking systems _ROCK_, alright... 

A Beneteau Sense 50 was lost today after going on the jetty in Ft. Pierce Inlet... Details still sketchy, but what the delivery crew is telling the owner is that the Dock & Go system went haywire, and pretty much froze all control of the boat...

But, yeah - the great thing about these sort of systems is that they allow more people who otherwise might be intimidated by handling their 40-footer get started in sailing, right? 

Un-freakin'-believable...

Damn, 'French Kiss', our friends boat, lost at Fort Pierce Inlet.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave.


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## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

That's not sailing.
That's an expensive toy for woosey wanna be sailors.
Dick


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## Delezynski (Sep 27, 2013)

Yep,

As was in another post, no need for those messy paper charts and old fashioned compass. The electronics will take care of it all. 

Greg

*Recommend viewing.....
Colossus - The Forbin Project
Demon Seed
Westworld *


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Naughty, naughty -- BAD ROBOT!


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## Mechsmith (Jun 7, 2009)

This is similar to the automatic brake system in automobiles. When they work they are wonderful. When they don't they may solve all your problems permanently. There are enough hazards out there or on the road. I wouldn't compound the potential problems voluntarily.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Can't you turn off the engine and thrusters? You're not going to be going THAT fast in a marina, are you? It makes me hope the OP is exaggerating to say the "boat was lost". Steer to avoid as much as you can, and fend off. Once you've stopped, hold on to a piling and call the dock office - on the cellphone if you have to. People need to do things that make sense.


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

Docking a 50 footer is no small task. The way i see it if you have the money for a Sense 50 and the insurance to go with it the more power to ya. iIt's a shame the dock and go isn't more reliable. Watching it in action is trully impressive. It definitely takes some of the fear out of some bad situations. 
If they were going out the inlet, why would they use the dock and go anyway? Playing?? 

20 Years from now it will be as normal as a fin keel with a spade rudder is today. Advances in sailing have to start somewhere. 

I heard full keels with barn door rudders coming back in fashion.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

What a shame I wasted so much time honing my boat handling skills. I could have just waited till this little innovation and never had to learn a damn thing. But the real question is; will it make me a cup of coffee??


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

She passed me (real close) two seasons ago on the way to Long Island, Bahamas. Didn't realize what danger I was in.


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## algee (Feb 28, 2010)

What did they do with the kid that was on the boat???


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

algee said:


> What did they do with the kid that was on the boat???


I think they were shy a fender or two. Its a good use for kids.

Wait, I have to put a smiley face here.


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

Washington State ferries had several very expensive accidents secondary to failure of electronic controls. Most of them involved approaching the dock, sending comands to reverse the motors, and nothing happened. A 400 plus foot long 3,200 ton boat can do a lot of damage even at low velocity. A 50 foot sailboat has a lot less energy, but is much more fragile, and still to big to stop without a lot of help.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I wasn't convinced till the end when I saw that it also tied the dock lines for them. I'm giving up my engine-less sailing ways and getting one of these things. My favorite part was the demographic.


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

Reminds me of Captain Ron when they come in sliding sideways into the dock and just as they make contact, a fender deflates.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> Yeah, those Dock & Go joystick docking systems _ROCK_, alright...
> 
> A Beneteau Sense 50 was lost today after going on the jetty in Ft. Pierce Inlet...[/url]


TODAY?

I heard this story over a month ago. Then I read the last post in the link given and a poster said it happened in November. Or did it happen a second time???


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

There don't seem to be any web hits on any recent sailboat "wrecks" at Fort Pierce. Unless someone can confirm this incident it is just bilge talk making the rounds.

Beneteau's pdf on the system does say it will lock out the helm, which leaves big questions about safety, override, operator training, reliability....and a good career for lawyers.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

benesailor said:


> 20 Years from now it will be as normal as a fin keel with a spade rudder is today. Advances in sailing have to start somewhere.


they can have my heavy, long, and full keel when they unclench my cold dead hands from the tiller 

That said.. I would like to play with that system at least once


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Can't you also end up on a jetty with a broken steering cable? Or a dead diesel? Or a drunk skipper?

Not exactly Hal-level technologies.

I'm really starting to think you have some serious Luddite tendencies, Jon.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

yes you can.. but generally those systems give you warning before they lock up and need to be "rebooted"


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

How do you reboot a drunk skipper?


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

boot up their ass? Lots of Coffee? sleep? There are lots of ways.. and a drunk skipper gives off a lot of hints that he is about to lock up and put a boat on the rocks


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

barefootnavigator said:


> I wasn't convinced till the end when I saw that it also tied the dock lines for them. I'm giving up my engine-less sailing ways and getting one of these things. My favorite part was the demographic.


I don't think this system is really ready for prime time until - as shown in the final shot - it will also bring your fenders back inboard, prior to leaving the harbor...

My favorite part is the fact they used a boat without a single sail bent on, that's the 'demographic' they're really shooting for, after all...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

xort said:


> TODAY?
> 
> I heard this story over a month ago. Then I read the last post in the link given and a poster said it happened in November. Or did it happen a second time???


Indeed, you are correct, this happened back around Thanksgiving...

The OP over on CSBB is a friend of the owner of FRENCH KISS. The reason for the confusion, is that the owner had just learned yesterday that the insurance company had written the boat off as a total loss... That was when she called her friends in CA, obviously very upset and distraught, and they misunderstood this to be an accident that happened yesterday...

The owner, Alex Kilmon, is quite an experienced yachtswoman. She's based in the Chesapeake, but the boat goes to the Caribbean in the winter. She has raced it in Les Voiles de St. Barths, as mentioned in this article in SAIL:

Why Les Voiles de St.Barths is a Rising Star | Sail Magazine

Here's a pic of the boat at her dock. The other boat in the background, was that of the OP of the story over on CSBB...










FRENCH KISS was equipped with every conceivable option, probably the most tricked-out Sense 50 afloat... Here's a broker's listing for the boat:

50' 0" BENETEAU 2011 | Luxury Super and Mega Yachts For Sale | Denison Super Yachts

I don't know the delivery skipper personally, but I've certainly heard his name over the years. I've seen his resume, and the guy is HUGELY experienced, on both large sailing and motor yachts, obviously as capable as they come... He has been running this boat for the owner right from the start, down and back to the Islands, and up and down the east coast... So, he's not some guy who just jumped on the boat, and might not have been familiar with her complex systems - one would have to presume he knew the boat inside/out... The fact that the apparent computer failure turned out to be something that was even beyond his ability to deal with, I would think should give anyone pause...

Here are the links to the 2 further clarifications of the story posted on CSBB:

Right, it wasn't yesterday as I thought.

Into the rocks story . .

Obviously, there is still much that is not understood about the cause of this incident... But it seems pretty apparent, that both the skipper and the owner are convinced it was due to a major computer failure that rendered many critical systems inoperable, and the inability to re-boot the thing in time..

Obviously, this is not the first time something like this has happened, this skipper just happened to be supremely unlucky that it occurred to him where it did...

Beneteau Dock N Go Problems - BeneteauOwners.com


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Can't you also end up on a jetty with a broken steering cable? Or a dead diesel? Or a drunk skipper?
> 
> Not exactly Hal-level technologies.
> 
> *I'm really starting to think you have some serious Luddite tendencies, Jon.*


Yeah, well... If you'd experienced the sorts of failures with some of the Latest & Greatest High-Tech Gizmos that I have over the years, you might exhibit a healthier respect for such "tendencies", as well 

So, what do you suppose the likelihood that delivery captain will be eager to jump on one of these things again? Do you suppose Alex Kilmon will be dropping another $700K on a 50-footer controlled by a computer and joystick?

How about Stanley Paris? Do you suppose when he finally has his $3 million KIWI SPIRIT _shipped_ back home as deck cargo on some merchant ship, he's gonna ask the guys at Lyman-Morse whether they can make the boat just a bit _MORE_ complex, and fit her out with even _NEWER_ cutting-edge gizmos?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

But you have to remember - these kinds of technologies (though certainly imperfect) make sailing much more possible for a wider swatch of people. For example, look at this snippet from the article you linked above:



> "Even though you're just a cruising boat, it allows you to experience the ambiance of racing in the big circuit," says Alex Kilmon, a Virginian who raced her new Beneteau Sense 50 French Kiss. Her boat was the most contemporary cruiser in the fleet, with twin rudders, hard chines and a modern, hard-edged aesthetic.
> 
> *Kilmon and her crew also held a unique distinction at the event: the average age aboard was 68. "A lot of my girlfriends younger than me are sitting in a nursing home complaining about this and that," says Marie Listander, one of Kilmon's 74-year-old crewmates, "and here we are in the middle of the ocean racing a sailboat. It's wonderful."*
> 
> ...


So, you'll have to ask her what she'll do on the next boat (as well what Stan will do on his) - but I say whatever it takes to get a boat full of 68-plus-year-old chicks out into a freakin' ocean race...I say do it. And I'm pretty certain that (relatively) isolated incidents like this don't indicated a whole-scale failure of this technology...or technology in general like you seemingly keep trying to establish.

That said - if the discussions are true of a "quick override" not being available with a 4 minute re-boot sequence before any steerage or propulsion is provided - there is definitely a problem with the design.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Obviously, there is still much that is not understood about the cause of this incident... But it seems pretty apparent, that both the skipper and the owner are convinced it was due to a major computer failure that rendered many critical systems inoperable, and the inability to re-boot the thing in time..


I'm following this on the CSBB, Jon, and maybe you're right but the accident report says they lost engine power and that caused a loss of steering.

"The investigation revealed that the engine system lost power causing positive steering to fail and the vessel drifted into the jetty. The case is currently closed and no charges are pending."


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> How about Stanley Paris? Do you suppose when he finally has his $3 million KIWI SPIRIT _shipped_ back home as deck cargo on some merchant ship, he's gonna ask the guys at Lyman-Morse whether they can make the boat just a bit _MORE_ complex, and fit her out with even _NEWER_ cutting-edge gizmos?


Looks like new plans; KIWI SPIRIT will come home to Maine on her own bottom. Not sure if Stanley will be sailing her, but I wouldn't be surprised. I'm hoping to meet Mr. Paris on the water this summer to see Phase 111 He's a well liked guy and has helped our local economy. 

Circumnavigation Abandoned, but Kiwi Spirit Endures | Maine


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## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

more crap to break


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

MikeGuyver said:


> more crap to break


That's exactly what my kids always say at Christmas.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> But you have to remember - these kinds of technologies (though certainly imperfect) make sailing much more possible for a wider swatch of people. For example, look at this snippet from the article you linked above:
> 
> 
> > "Even though you're just a cruising boat, it allows you to experience the ambiance of racing in the big circuit," says Alex Kilmon, a Virginian who raced her new Beneteau Sense 50 French Kiss. Her boat was the most contemporary cruiser in the fleet, with twin rudders, hard chines and a modern, hard-edged aesthetic.
> ...


Well, you are ignoring the fact that they didn't need Dock & Go to be out sailing... Her friend over on the CSBB makes it clear that she never liked the system from the beginning...

The fundamental illogic of the embrace of this sort of stuff - the argument that it "helps get more people out on the water" - completely baffles me... Here we have an instance of a highly experienced professional captain being unable to deal with a major malfunction likely related to such a system, and yet if said systems can get even _more_ people incapable of handling their new 50-footers without a joystick out on the water, it's all good...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

TomMaine said:


> I'm following this on the CSBB, Jon, and maybe you're right but the accident report says they lost engine power and that caused a loss of steering.
> 
> "The investigation revealed that the engine system lost power causing positive steering to fail and the vessel drifted into the jetty. The case is currently closed and no charges are pending."


Hmmm... So, then - does that imply that the engine has to be running to steer the freakin' thing _UNDER SAIL ???_

)


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

JonEisberg said:


> But, yeah - the great thing about these sort of systems is that they allow more people who otherwise might be intimidated by handling their 40-footer get started in sailing, right?
> 
> 360 DOCKING BY JEANNEAU - YouTube


People who are intimidated by handling a 40-footer shouldn't be handling a 40-footer. Right? 

As for the video....with the right technique and some practice you can almost do that with a single screw and no bow thruster. Right?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"How do you reboot a drunk skipper? "
OH, MINNIE!
You know what they say in the service academies?
CADET, ARE YOU A VIRGIN, CADET?
SIR, YESSIR, IN MY LEFT EAR, SIR!

A drunken skipper, a drunken sailor, makes no difference to me.
Courtesy of the Wiki. Note, there will be quiz on Monday morning.

Weigh heigh and up she rises 
(/Hoo-ray and up she rises)
Weigh heigh and up she rises 
(/Patent blocks of different sizes)[
2]Weigh heigh and up she rises
Early in the morning
Traditional verses:
What shall we do with a drunken sailor,
What shall we do with a drunken sailor,
What shall we do with a drunken sailor,
Early in the morning?
Put/chuck him in the long boat till he's sober.[7]
Put him in the long-boat and make him bail her.[8]
What shall we do with a drunken soldier?[2]
Put/lock him in the guard room 'til he gets sober.[7]
[2]Put him in the scuppers with a hose-pipe on him.[12]
Pull out the plug and wet him all over[12]
Tie him to the taffrail when she's yardarm under[12]
Heave him by the leg in a runnin' bowline.[12]
Scrape the hair off his chest with a hoop-iron razor.[2]
Give 'im a dose of salt and water.[2]
Stick on his back a mustard plaster.[2]
Keep him there and make 'im bail 'er.[2]
Give 'im a taste of the bosun's rope-end.[2]
What'll we do with a Limejuice skipper?[2]
Soak him in oil till he sprouts a flipper.[2]
What shall we do with the Queen o' Sheba?[2]
What shall we do with the Virgin Mary?[2]
Additional verses:
Shave his chin with a rusty razor.[21]
Shave his belly with a rusty razor.[22]
Give 'im a hair of the dog that bit him.[23]
Put him in the bilge and make him drink it.[24]
Put him in bed with the captain's daughter.[25]

Y'all gotta come up on the importance of traditions, Minne!


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

hellosailor said:


> "How do you reboot a drunk skipper? "
> OH, MINNIE!
> 
> .
> ...


Hah!

I remember learning to play that on the trumpet in elementary school. I don't recall them teaching us all those verses though....


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

I realize that there are a lot of variables to take in to consideration. But, I was always taught, and practice to this day, to have a sail uncovered and ready to hoist in the event that you, for whatever reason, lose power. Not saying that this would have saved this boat, but it may have kept them off the rocks.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Argh, but ye'll never be knowing about that lass from Nantucket if you only learn music in schools. Not even in Band Camp.

A _thousand _verses, they say. Ply enough old salts with enough rum, and you might remember to write down half of 'em. (G)


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, you are ignoring the fact that they didn't need Dock & Go to be out sailing... Her friend over on the CSBB makes it clear that she never liked the system from the beginning...


Yeah, I read that. But I've also read several people who talk about how much they like theirs.

At the same time, as you noted, that boat was packed with every technology and feature you could imagine (D&G being just one of many...see below) - features that obviously made sailing it "easier"...to the point that it could be _raced_ by a crew of older women. And, again, I say that's a good thing.

What you're trying to do - which has also been alluded to over on CSBB - is your typical Sky Is Falling routine on technology based on this incident. I'm just saying, the sky is okay.



JonEisberg said:


> The fundamental illogic of the embrace of this sort of stuff - the argument that it "helps get more people out on the water" - completely baffles me... Here we have an instance of a highly experienced professional captain being unable to deal with a major malfunction likely related to such a system, and yet if said systems can get even _more_ people incapable of handling their new 50-footers without a joystick out on the water, it's all good...


Well, maybe it was as you joked over on CSBB:



> Hate to even suggest this, but my first thought was if I was delivering a Sense 50, and somehow royally screwed up and put it onto the rocks, that would be my story, and I'd be sticking to it... (grin)


Who knows?

My point is that the joystick has helped a lot of people park their ride much more easily (and completely forget their grandson on the boat as they race off to get drunk). That's a good thing....the technology, not the wanton senility.

And, as I said earlier, if what is being claimed about having a completely dead boat in the water for 4 minutes while you have to reboot a locked system is true...there's definitely a design problem. Do you have any details on that?

PS - Are you going to hammer on Alex for the flatscreen, icemaker, wireless Seatalk remote, electric throttle control, electric winches, electric companionway, electric roller furling, electric windlass, electric heads, as well as scold her for your much dereided equipage choices shown here?










I'll stand by...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Meanwhile has anyone found any confirmation (Nooze reports, etc.) that THIS incident happened THIS year in Fort Pierce?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> Meanwhile has anyone found any confirmation (Nooze reports, etc.) that THIS incident happened THIS year in Fort Pierce?


No, it happened about 6 weeks ago... See Post #24...



> I saw French Kiss being towed...
> 
> ...into Ft. Pierce harbor this past November. It was taken off the rock jetty at Ft. Pierce inlet by the USCG. I saw it as we passed by after leaving Vero in the morning. I knew the boat from seeing it in the Bahamas in 2011. The Coast Guard had huge pumps keeping it afloat at that time. This is a picture of that event.
> 
> ...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Here Jon, I'll let you narrate:


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> My point is that the joystick has helped a lot of people park their ride much more easily. *That's a good thing.*


We'll agree to disagree, as usual  I would simply say, _"Not always"..._



smackdaddy said:


> PS - Are you going to hammer on Alex for the flatscreen, icemaker, wireless Seatalk remote, electric throttle control, electric winches, electric companionway, electric roller furling, electric windlass, electric heads, as well as scold her for your much dereided equipage choices shown here?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry to disappoint you, but no, I won't  It was her money, her boat, her choices...

I'll simply say I would never want to own a boat that large, or that complex... I sometimes get paid to sail boats like that, but I wouldn't want to have to deal with the associated headaches on my own time, sailing for pleasure... Nothing necessarily or inherently wrong with some of those choices, I just think some of them are not worth the potential hassle. An icemaker, or electric heads, for example, on a cruising boat? If she wants to run a generator to make icecubes, fine, but I'll pass... And, when the time comes I can no longer pump my Lavac by hand, I'll know it's definitely time for me to pack it in...


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I read the other day that there are now new boats coming with sails that are made with some type of fake man-made material. That's just crazy, if cotton isn't good enough stay home!


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

The issue here, is not whether such a system should be on sailboats or whether owners should equip their boats thusly.

The issue, is that THIS system is not ready for prime-time. Any automated system that LOCKS HUMANS OUT during failure mode FOR ANY AMOUNT OF TIME, is massively flawed.

Smack, even many years ago, we had autopilot systems and automated depth-keeping systems on some of the nuclear submarines that I served on. In any kind of a failure, those systems immediately released the controls and sounded an alarm. The most human intervention required in the event of a failure, was the movement of a toggle switch.

That is merely a function of intelligent design and engineering, not a function of technology or budget.

In the event of a Dock 'n Go failure, if the owner has to do anything more than operate a switch, release a mechanical interlock or open an easily accessible hydraulic valve to regain control of their vessel, then this system is complete, unsafe crap, in my not-so-humble opinion.

10 seconds or less, should be the goal to human control. 4 minutes for a computer reboot, while you're gliding towards the dock or the beach, in a 50 foot boat, is an eternity.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Here Jon, I'll let you narrate:
> 
> Beneteau Sense 55 Test 2013- By BoatTest.com - YouTube


_"Virtually ANYONE, who has spent ANY time sailing, can handle this 55-footer with ease..."_

Damn, looks like the perfect boat for the Newb who wants to sail straight from Newport, to the Caribbean, in November... 

Scares me when I see people reaching _THROUGH_ the spokes of the wheel, to make adjustments to the autopilot...










Interesting boat, no question, and I'm sure it's a pleasure to sail in the sort of conditions depicted... But simply not my style, and certainly not an interior I'd care to take offshore, apparently Beneteau believes features like overhead handrails or grab rails in general in such an open interior are just SO passe', or that a body could NEVER be tossed into any of those sharp corners lying in wait...










Engine access looks like it could be tough on that boat, you get at it from the front by removing the bottom TWO steps of that companionway... Something's wrong, when the instant access to the machinery space on a 55-footer appears to be worse than that on my little 30' tub 



















Good luck to the Authorized ZF Technician getting at that locked rotating pod drive  And, those open-sided steps may look stylish, but are a very dangerous feature on a sailing yacht, in my opinion... I could go on, but you're probably beginning to get the picture... 

And, those picture windows in the hull make me nervous...


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

BubbleheadMd said:


> The issue, is that THIS system is not ready for prime-time. Any automated system that LOCKS HUMANS OUT during failure mode FOR ANY AMOUNT OF TIME, is massively flawed.


If they were in an inlet and under power then a motor failure could lock them out too. Any diesel can die due to fuel starvation etc. and yep, you're locked out of running the engine. Having been through Ft. Pierce inlet it would be pretty hard to sail unless the wind was just right. With planning it could be done but if you were prepared to enter under power and then Yanny let you down.....

I wish we had more information as to the specifics but we really don't? Some reports say engine failure others blame it on the dock & go....????

Will we every know the true failure mode?

Old traditional technologies on _well regarded_ blue water brands can fail too, even when internet lore says otherwise....









It's a boat, and _crap_ happens.

That said, like Jon, this would not be my choice of boat even if I had the money. I spent far to many years working & fishing on _technology packed_ seven-figure off shore sport fishing boats, to do that to myself.

On 50 - 70' sport fishing boats it was literally two years, after taking delivery, that all the bugs were finally worked out. This was not from mediocre builders like Ocean Yachts but from premium quality builders like Davis & Viking, Scarborough, Gamefisherman etc.. these are like the Halberg, Hinckley, Morris etc. of sail boats. Still a two full year process before the boat was fully ready for hardcore, offshore fishing in a reliable manner.

Millions spent to get 200 miles off shore only to have trolling valve issues and ruin the day or days of fishing planned on or to have to back out of a tournament and sit at the dock and watch your competitors land the big ones.. Not to mention the 4-5 figure fuel bill that was wasted in getting there & back only to not be able to troll over a piddly failure...

I can't even venture a guess at how many _years_ to get all the bugs out of a lower build quality sport fishing boat.

Want to talk technology, you should see what Gunboat is doing these days. if we think the Sense is advanced........

Let's also not forget that it was a simple _grapefruit_ that put an old tech boat on the beach in Florida a few weeks ago....


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## Delezynski (Sep 27, 2013)

Failure modes........

FIRST, the "take home" from this should not be what some other boat owner decided to equip there boat with, but what and how we each, as the captain, decide to do with our own boats.

My working life was in aerospace, from single engine aircraft to and including many spacecraft. We ALWAYS did a "failure analysis". I TRY to carry that thought on to how I add/modify/use our sail boat.

A couple of quick (from Failure Models) things I take into account are;

_There are two common forms of failure models. 
1. In the single-failure model, one individual failure causes the entire system to fail. For example, in a single-elimination play-off tournament (such as the NFL play-offs), one loss means that you are out of the tournament.

2. In the compound-failure model, every component must fail in order for the entire system to fail. For example, if the boat will operate as long as at least one engine is running, then every engine must fail in order for the boat to fail.

The single-failure and the compound-failure models are mirror images of one another. A single-failure model is the same as a compound-success model: if a single component failure causes the system to fail, then every componenet must succeed for the system to succed. A compound failure model is the same as a single-success model: if every component must fail to cause the system to fail, then only one component must succeed to cause the system to succeed. _

The next thing I take into account, in simple terms, is that in a "single-failure model" EACH added item doubles the chance of a total failure. 2 items doubles your chance of a problem, but three items in the line makes a failure MUCH more likely, add another and WOW!  

Just my nickels worth....

Greg


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Delezynski said:


> My working life was in aerospace, from single engine aircraft to and including many spacecraft. We ALWAYS did a "failure analysis". I TRY to carry that thought on to how I add/modify/use our sail boat.
> 
> A couple of quick (from Failure Models) things I take into account are;
> 
> ...


I think this is a good model to follow and one that we should try and categorize for sailboats. Certain things can't be left out of category #1..

*Category #1*

*Rig Failure/Loss
*Keel Failure/Loss
*Hull Failure (Tartan hull split etc.)
*Rudder Failure/Loss (with no vane or back up)
*Anchor Failure/Dragging (especially along a rocky coast or lee shore)
*Thru-Hull/Seacock Failure (catastrophic leak)

*Category #2*

I will let you guys go....


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> The issue here, is not whether such a system should be on sailboats or whether owners should equip their boats thusly.
> 
> The issue, is that THIS system is not ready for prime-time. Any automated system that LOCKS HUMANS OUT during failure mode FOR ANY AMOUNT OF TIME, is massively flawed.
> 
> ...


I'm not defending the D&G technology per se. As I said earlier, if what we're reading is accurate, your run-down above is spot on. That is some very bad design.

That said, the _concept_ behind the design is very good. It's a smart application of technology. And there's no reason to discount that because of malfunctions in the early iterations.

So, where John wants to cover the baby with chum and chunk her to the sharks with the bath water, I'd rather improve the execution of a technology that has real promise.

Just different viewpoints. Mine's better of course.


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## Delezynski (Sep 27, 2013)

Maine Sail said:


> I think this is a good model to follow and one that we should try and categorize for sailboats. Certain things can't be left out of category #1..
> 
> *Category #1*
> 
> ...


I think I see the rig as going into category 2 for our boat. Mostly due to all of the parts that I can inspect one at a time. And I do have a diesel with 500 +/- mile range. 

Greg


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Delezynski said:


> I think I see the rig as going into category 2 for our boat. Mostly due to all of the parts that I can inspect one at a time. And I do have a diesel with 500 +/- mile range.
> 
> Greg


I think it could be either category depending upon the boat and when or how it happens. If it happens on a lee shore, probably category #1.... It would also depend upon how the loss goes.

I was on an Ericson back in the late 80's that lost the rig just after a complete survey and rig inspection (within two weeks of it). It was there one minute then, _in slow motion_, it was gone... We got it cut away but if we had not it could have easily holed the boat (category #1). The cutting away of the rig is not always quick or easy.....

As it was we did have enough fuel but that may not always be the case so I still suspect it could be a cat 1 or 2 depending on how it goes or where you are.........


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## Delezynski (Sep 27, 2013)

Maine Sail said:


> I think it could be either category depending upon the boat and when or how it happens. If it happens on a lee shore, probably category #1.... It would also depend upon how the loss goes.
> 
> I was on an Ericson back in the late 80's that lost the rig just after a complete survey and rig inspection (within two weeks of it). It was there one minute then, _in slow motion_, it was gone... We got it cut away but if we had not it could have easily holed the boat (category #1). The cutting away of the rig is not always quick or easy.....
> 
> As it was we did have enough fuel but that may not always be the case so I still suspect it could be a cat 1 or 2 depending on how it goes or where you are.........


Agreed. Sounds like an attention getting event! So far, we have not lost a rig, or even a parted wire in the rigging.

We have always thought of our boat more like a spacecraft than a car. When we were prepping I had a lot of help from the "rocket scientists".  They liked working on and giving advice on a craft that not only could launch and go, but also come back, to see the results!  Most of the stuff we workd on had a one way trip. :laugher And they were always surprised at how similar to a manned spacecraft a boat is to a manned spacecraft. Couse I didn't have to worry about 02...

Greg


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> We'll agree to disagree, as usual  I would simply say, _"Not always"..._
> 
> Sorry to disappoint you, but no, I won't  It was her money, her boat, her choices...
> 
> I'll simply say I would never want to own a boat that large, or that complex... I sometimes get paid to sail boats like that, but I wouldn't want to have to deal with the associated headaches on my own time, sailing for pleasure... Nothing necessarily or inherently wrong with some of those choices, I just think some of them are not worth the potential hassle. An icemaker, or electric heads, for example, on a cruising boat? If she wants to run a generator to make icecubes, fine, but I'll pass... And, when the time comes I can no longer pump my Lavac by hand, I'll know it's definitely time for me to pack it in...


I sure hope it doesn't rain with his tender up there on that tack... of does he have a drain hole in both sides?


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> _"Virtually ANYONE, who has spent ANY time sailing, can handle this 55-footer with ease..."_
> 
> Damn, looks like the perfect boat for the Newb who wants to sail straight from Newport, to the Caribbean, in November...
> 
> ...


Ok, I'll have a go with that too...

Where are the handholds (as you mentioned) going down the boat for BOTH tacks.

How about those pretty little corners on the table? What happens when someone trips off the stairs in a sea and puts their head or ribs into it? THose kind of corners should an automatic disqualifier for any ocean going vessel.

While I do congratulate Bene on their more abundant use of cabinets unlike their other models (though I wonder if they are the same pressed-board with faux wood stickers for joinery), all of those shelves are worthless!!! THere are no fiddleboards! And all of those counter tops, while pretty, are only good for flat preparation of items. You cannot permanently put anything there. Forget sailing, the first time a sport fish comes by on half plane everything on that boat not in a cabinet will be equally distributed about the floor. If it is crystal, glass, or china, it will be equally distributed in pieces.

Is there access to the port, starboard and aft section of that engine? Sure looks from the pics that the cabinets are there permanently.

I have not seent his boat in person, but those are my first impressions. For many of my complaints, you don't have to see the boat at all. It is scarily obvious.

Brian


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Cruisingdad said:


> Is there access to the port, starboard and aft section of that engine? Sure looks from the pics that the cabinets are there permanently.


But--but--but--- in the designer's and marketroids' worlds engines never break, so you don't have to fix them, so you don't need access to them.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

manatee said:


> But--but--but--- in the designer's and marketroids' worlds engines never break, so you don't have to fix them, so you don't need access to them.


Well, with the cheap price of new boats today, I guess you can just throw it away and buy another if it does break.

Brian


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Cruisingdad said:


> Well, with the cheap price of new boats today, I guess you can just throw it away and buy another if it does break.
> 
> Brian


The wonders & joys of a throwaway economy...and I hear used boats can be had at bargain prices, if you can tear yourself away from "keeping up with the Rockefellers".


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

Google AF447. This is what the aviation world thinks of fancy electronics.

Jerry


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