# Westerly Warwick 22 ft Sloop



## madman960 (Nov 30, 2009)

Thinking about purchasing a Westerly Warwick 22 ft Sloop. However, it needs a full assortment of sails. It also needs rub rails, and non-skid for the deck. It also needs reassembled. The purchase price for the vessel is negligible. The current owner says I should be able to finish the boat for $2,500 if I am frugal enough. I was planning for $5,000 over 2 years. Most of the work has been done to the boat.

The owner states " I have stripped the hull and interior and began the restoration. The hull has never been damaged. The really hard work has been done. I stripped off 4 coats of paint. I glassed in un necessary holes in the deck, fixed a few bilsters, applied 5 coats of West Systems Barier Coat, 4 Coats of Urethane Primer, and have applied 4 coats of Linear Poly Urethane Paint. The fall weather turned cold before I could finish the last sanding and coat of paint. I have the LPU paint to finish the job. The deck is in great physical condition and awaits a coat of non skid. I have most of the original teak wood. I planned to restore her with using white oak wood and I have purchased material for the companion way and side rails. 
I have purchased sheet of 5/16" dark plexiglass for the windows and companion way. I have the mast and boom and all of the wire rigging and turn buckles. I carefully removed all of the hardware and interior pieces and it awaits installation. I have most of the hardware to go back onto her, a few common pieces stilll need to be purchased."


I have allotted 2 years and a budget of $5,000-$7,000 to buy and fix up a boat. 

Thank you for your time,

Bill Sobers USMC


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Buy it if you like boatbuilding however if you like sailing RUN RUN RUN.

Buy someting that you can sail NOW!


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## madman960 (Nov 30, 2009)

I see it like this,

I am an active duty Marine with 2 years left on my current contract. I plan to use this time to get a boat and make it the way I want. I have zero boating knowledge. I figure if I finish putting this one back together, I will know a little more about maintaining a boat.


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## sailguy40 (Feb 6, 2010)

If you have $5000 to $7000 for your budget, you can definitely find something bigger, nicer and ready to sail. Plus you can save the 2 years you planning to spend working on it and do a lot of sailing. I would say you are correct about putting it back together, you can learn a lot about it by working on it. In fact I ran into the problem of doing too much sailing and not getting the things I wanted to get done on my boat. So I had to get a little strict on myself this last week and doing some work on it. I actually have been having a great time working on it and found I have yet another hobby that has been born from sailing. In the end, if you really want that particular model sailboat then maybe you can have a surveyor check it out for you before you buy it.


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## madman960 (Nov 30, 2009)

I have roughly $2,000 cash to purchase a boat. The other $3-$5,000 will come from working over the next 2 years as well as a chunk from the sale of my 1973 Monte Carlo. I figure since I have 2 years of active service left, I may as well build the boat as I won't have much time to sail it anyhow. My biggest concern is finding sails for it. I am not sure how many sails I will need. The owners manual lists 1 main, 3 jibs, 1 genoa, and 1 spinnaker. The owner suggested going to a roller furling system. If I do that, would I need different sails? The main reason I like this particular boat is not everyone has one. I believe a 28-35 ft boat is closer to my actual needs or wants. But I think the 22 ft boat would be a better beginners boat. I could be wrong.

Bill USMC


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## madman960 (Nov 30, 2009)

What are the advantages/ disadvantages to a double keeled boat? I would think stability but can't really think of anything else.

Bill USMC


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## sailguy40 (Feb 6, 2010)

Are you wanting used sails? If you want new I have found a number of sites online which make sails. I came across them when I was looking for sails for my Cal 25 early last year. Maybe try fxsails.com or one of the others like thesailwarehouse.com Oh those links with pics of the boat don't come up for me.


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## madman960 (Nov 30, 2009)

Not sure if I want new or used sails. I have found a few sailmakers online. I will see if I can fix the links. 

Bill USMC


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

Twin keels will let the boat sit upright on land when the tide goes out (as in England or Florida ) Jack Hornor, a boat surveyor has a boat review of another Westerly sailboat, the Centaur with twin keels.
I would try my darndest to get a sailboat that I can STAND UP INSIDE.
(not saying you will do this, but, there are hundreds of boats sitting for 5-10 yrs in boat yards across the USA that people were going to fix up). I have heard about Divorces, reposessions,etc. because of project boats. But, also project boats that are finished beautifully.
..Used Sails by the thousands at Baconsails.com for $hundreds of dollars.
New Sails can be $thousands. --Twin Keels are known to be slow, I know, I had a Westerly Centaur 26. Generally, the longer the sailboat, the faster is goes.
A marine survey(appraisal) for a cheap boat can cost more than the boat. If a survey comes out -bad then the money is just gone,but, of course you learn not to buy the boat.


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## madman960 (Nov 30, 2009)

Sidney777,

According to the users manual, the 22' has 5' 10" headroom in the main cabin. I am not worried about speed until I can operate the boat properly. After I get the hang of sailing, I may get a larger boat. I have seen a few other boats in sailing condition that start around $3,000. I was just thinking about doing this to learn about maintaining boats. 

Bill USMC


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

Well, sounds like you have made up your mind to buy it. Keep us informed of your progress,if you like.


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## madman960 (Nov 30, 2009)

Pics again. Hopefully the links work this time.



















Bill USMC


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## madman960 (Nov 30, 2009)

Sidney777,

I have quite decided yet, but am leaning towards it. What did you like and dislike about the Centaur 26? Other than being slow. As it was designed to be a cruiser not a racer cruiser I figured it would be a bit slower for comfort. Could speed be improved by changing sail material? As I would need to purchase sails anyway, it would not be a big deal to change the material. How was the ride quality compared to a single/ full keeled boat? 

Bill USMC


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## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

Usually a boat's speed has more to do with the hull shape and what kind of keel it has. I am don't know anything about this boat but from what I gather anything you do to it will just make it marginally faster. It's going to be slow no matter what you do. Unless this boat is a cult boat that a special appeal to this boat throwing $5000 at it will be a waste of money. 

Since it is currently someone's incomplete project it will be hard to sell anyway. If you really want the boat I would wait the guy out for six months to a year and offer him $500. And probably in that years time you will find a Cape Dory or some other slow cruiser that is worth the money (if a slow cruiser is what you really want.) In this market there are a lot of boats out there that are in sailable condition, yet will have all the maintenance you could possible want in your price range.

I think you also asked if you should want a slow boat to learn on. You probably don't. Heavy slow boats are very forgiving so you don't know when you mess up. A more performance orientated boat will let you know a lot quicker that you are doing something wrong.


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## madman960 (Nov 30, 2009)

MarkCK,

What can I do to make it marginally faster? The boat is about $500. The current owner says I can finish it for less than $3,000 if I buy used sails. So I would have $3,000 or less in my first boat. The boat weighs 3695 pounds and has a ballast weight of 1680 pounds. I am not sure what this means to the sailor. I am more concerned with ride comfort than speed. Wouldn't a twin keeled boat heel less than a single keeled boat? 

Bill USMC


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## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

I don't know a lot about twin keeled boats so I really don't know if it will heel less. Not very many manufacturers build this style of boat so that probably is an indication of how desirable two keels are. 3700 pounds is definitely on the heavy side for a boat that is only 22 foot in length. 

A more seaworthy boat will actually heel more than a less seaworthy boat. I am just generalizing here but...Boats with a flatter bottom sail less heeled over than a boat with a more V shaped bottom. But once you are out on the ocean in heavy weather a boat with a flat bottom will pound more so you want more of a V shape to the hull. Most cheaper production boats are made with a flatter bottom for better storage/living space and better initial stability. Once it really starts to blow the boat with the V bottom will heel more initially but will ultimately provide more stability. 

Marginally faster is probably going to involve some high end racing sails. You definitely going to need some mylar racing sails, a spinnaker, keep the interior furnishings to a minimum. Maybe some racing guys can chime in with a few tips, but when I said marginally I meant going from 3 knots to 3.1 knots. It's kinda of like buying a knife. If its not sharp the day you buy it, it never will be.


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## madman960 (Nov 30, 2009)

Here are the sailing characteristics from the original sales brochure: "Warwick points well to windward and with her transom hung, partly balanced rudder, she is light on the helm under sail or motor. She is very responsive with good directional steadiness and, with her knuckled bow is particularly dry. Warwick heaves-to easily and, with a high ballast ratio and form stability, is a good stiff boat." What exactly does it mean? I understand what pointing is, and the transom mounted rudder, and heave-to. It's the rest that I do not understand. 

Bill USMC


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## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

Light on the helm means that she is easy to steer. Generally all small boats are easy to steer. There is just not enough mass there for it to be cumbersome. 

Directional steadiness means that it will go in a straight line without constantly adjusting the tiller. The dual keels should be a big plus in directional steadiness.

I am not sure what a knuckled bow is. I assume it means that it has a fair amount of overhang so that it will cut through the waves instead of pounding into them which would cause for a wetter ride.

High ballast ratio means that there is a lot of wieght in the keel relative to the total wieght of the boat. Usually around .30 is the ballast ratio give or take. If the boat weighs a 1000 pounds around 333 pounds will be made keel wieight. Anything higher than .3 is probably considered high, anything less is considered low. By my calculation 1680/3695 give us a ballast ratio of .45. This would indeed keep the boat from heeling. 

Form stability mean how flat the bottom of the boat is. The flatter the bottom the less it heels. With twin keels it probably has to be flat just to have enough room to mount them properly. 

Given the previous two indicators high ballast ratio, flat bottom it indeed would be a stiff boat. i.e. when the wind picks up it wont tip over very easily.


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

Knuckled bow; Take a look at the hull picture of the boat. About 1 to 2 ft down from the rail (hull to deck joint) you will see about an inch or two sticking out from the rest of the fiberglass, It runs from near the bow back for maybe 8 feet. (kinda like a kuckle on your hand). The idea is like previous post says about spraying water protection. The water comes UP from the sea along the hull and this "knuckle" sticking out is supposed to deflect the spray and make it a dryer boat for you.


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## Dirtboy (Jul 13, 2009)

I may be of some help as I owned and sailed a Westerly Padgent 23' for 15 years. These are stout, well built, seaworthy boats. These boats were built to Lloyds specs and hulls were certified by Lloyds (they usually certify large ships) to high standards. Equipment tends to be first rate. Laurent Giles designed his basic twin keel yachts in various sizes. Although small, 22' westerly’s have crossed both Atlantic and Pacific oceans with little problem.

The cabin windows look overly large, I suspect someone has enlarged them. I hope you won’t need to haul her too far on that horrible looking trailer. I think $500 is a good price for the basic hull, deck and rigging. The question is are you up for that much work? I lived next to a marina for many years, it was one of the few do-it-yourself yards around. I always joked, the boats stayed ..... owners changed.

What you’ll end up with is a boat that performs fairly well off wind, but won’t point as high as a mono-keel. She’s tender to the point that the lee keel gets horizontal, then she stiffens up and is very hard to heel much further — takes a huge gust. Because you have two “fin” keels she is rather quick to respond to helm and she can turn in a very tight arc.

The cockpit and cabin are very spacious and comfortable, especially for a 22'er. My 28' Morgan has about the same usable interior space as the 23' Padgent and the Westerly’s cockpit was more comfortable. She’s a quality boat. If you must do a project, working with quality is a plus.

DB


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## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

The more I research this boat on the net the more I like it. Or at least I like the design of it and some of its capabilities. At first I thought it was a typical boat of that era. Too heavy and too much of a throwback to boats that were designed to be built out of wood. Still as far as a fixer upper and as a first boat for a beginner I am not sure that it is the way to go.


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## Dirtboy (Jul 13, 2009)

> The water comes UP from the sea along the hull and this "knuckle" sticking out is supposed to deflect the spray and make it a dryer boat for you.


That chine gives the bow more boyancy and does deflect spray. It's a very seaworthy design and confidence inspiring. It's a great boat for a beginer because she does respond to helm quickly and lets you know if what you did was right or wrong. I was slowing motoring past some slips in Punta Gorda when some &*(7%&*&*&* in a huge motor yacht backed out of his slip without looking. Most sailboats would have hit him, that little Westerly spun around on a dime.

DB


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

About speed on the Westerly Centaur. I have read other centaur sailors used bigger genoas and got more speed. If you look for Centaur revews you may read about speed. I liked the Centaur because it was safe in my storm experience and others. It and your -maybe- boat was made for the same North Sea. You boat and All the Westerlys(as far as I know) were given a Lloyds certificate for the excellent build of these Westerlys. ( You would have to investigate the full meaning of the Lloyds cert). Westerlys are on some of the offshore sailing sailboat lists). If you sail alot you will get caught in storms. Flicka 20 ft sailboat is one heavy,slow,very expensive sailboat that you might read about and ask yourself and others; What is the difference between my boat and the old $20,000 to $60,000+ Flicka ?


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

Does it have a rudder ?


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## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

Here is the advertisement.

Westerly Warwick, 22', 1971, Templeton, California, sailboat for sale from Sailing Texas


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## Dirtboy (Jul 13, 2009)

Man, If you do get it I'd like to keep in touch. Also, may be able to answer questions that come up down the road. My Padgent had a 10hp volvo diesel. Even though I had a dual battery set up I really enjoyed starting her with the hand crank.

Found this old picture:










Jib halyard could have been a little tighter ...........

I have very fond memories of that boat. I am somewhat competitive and do enjoy the speed and pointing abilities of my present boat but I always knew that little Westerly would get me back home.

DB


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## madman960 (Nov 30, 2009)

DB,

Just sent the owner an email confirming I will purchase the boat. Thanks for the info. It is nice to know that I am getting a quality boat that is also comfortable. I have 2 years to work on it. It appears that the entire interior is out. After I get it painted, what should I put back in or leave out? Also should I put in a wind vane auto pilot or a tiller auto pilot? Other amenities that you would recommend for long distance sailing or coastal cruising? I was thinking a desalinator, windmill for charging the batteries, and a power inverter with a solar panel. Once I get out of the military I would like to sail up the CA coast to Alaska and also down to Hawaii. 

Sidney777, it should have a rudder.

MarkCK, these boats have a larger following in Europe. It is my understanding that the US has lighter winds than in parts of Europe where these boats are most popular. 

Bill USMC


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## Dirtboy (Jul 13, 2009)

I'll have to start looking for more old photo's. Once you get pictures of the interior we'll see how close it is to the Padgent. The interior was simple but useable. I took all the wood out of my interior and put 12 coats of varnish, wet sanding between each coat ...... it gleamed! LOL Not really that much wood in there, mostly trim.

My advice is to consentrate on the basics right now and leave decisions about extra equipment after she's in the water and sailing. I've got an auto tiller in the storage compartment that's been waiting two years to get installed. I've learned to balance her out with the centerboard and a piece of bungie cord ...... 50 cents worth of bungie vs $350 un-used auto tiller. Duh.  Check out Lin and Larry Pardey, read a few of their books. They've travled extensively in small boats and they tend towards the basic equipment rather than modern ..... engine-less crusing.

Have you got the wooden rub-rail? Life lines? Winches? Once you get everything home and inventoried you'll have a better understanding of what you'll need.

I'm excited for you. If you see this project through I think you will have a very proper little yacht for a reasonable investment and lots of sweat equity.

Good luck to you and I'm looking forward to progress reports!

DB


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## madman960 (Nov 30, 2009)

The current owner said it needs rub rails and sails. Other than that he says pretty much everything else is there. He also said the head was remove before he purchased it. Thanks for the advice on the extra stuff. Is the centerboard the same thing as the tiller? I won't be home til June, but I will post pics of my progress as I go.

Bill


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

Naw, tiller thing you steer with. As an example,many outboard motors have short tiller to steer with. (But, if you get an outboard you can just keep it in one position and steer with your rudder on sailboat 90% of time. A Centerboard or -swing keel- is lowered as a keel to go down deeper in the water. It can be raised and lowered as compared to a Fixed Keel. Deep keels can keep you going "straighter" than if you have no keel and give you more stability. There is more to explain, but now you know what a centerboard is.
* ** I couldn't see a Rudder in Picture.. The tiller is in the cockpit and is about 4 ft long and you steer with it. That is what a Tillerpilot automatic pilot usually connects to.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Madman

Twin keel boats are were popular in the UK in particular because marinas as we know them were rare. Most boats were moored in drying harbors. When the tide was out they sat on their twin keels. Westerly was probably the most prominent builder of fiberglass boats in the UK for several decades. They were not real fancy but were solid boats that were affordable. Many had inboard diesels, in boats as small as 21 feet. While they were not speed demons they were good sailing comfortable boats. My first production boat in 1972 was a 1967 model Westerly 25 twin keel with a Volvo MD-1 diesel. I loved the boat and spent an entire summer sailing BC's coastline. I also owned a twin keel custom 35' boat in the late 80's and early 90's. Twin keels have the same stability of a single keel boat, all else being equal. They have a bit more wetted surface than a single keel boat but the difference is marginal. No boat that size with much of a cruising interior is real fast.

Here is the link to the UK Westerly site with the specifications on the Warwick
Westerly Owners Association

And here is the Westerly Owner's group on Yahoo - I am a member, out of nostalgia I guess. Westerly-Owners : Westerly Owners Group

The boat you are buying looks like a good value if you are in for some work.

Here is a pic of a Warwick with the standard window arrangement.


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## madman960 (Nov 30, 2009)

Sidney777, Thanks for clearing that up for me. 

Mitiempo, Thanks for the info. I am already a member on yahoo groups. I will join the Owners association once I take ownership. They might sell it before I return in June. I also have a copy of the sales brochure that the owner sent me. 

Bill


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## sidney777 (Jul 14, 2001)

Does it have a title ? If it does not, it can be very difficult or maybe not in California. 
Maybe you can get a salvage title. I have asked in Illinois and it is a long 3 yr process and other states in USA it is almost impossible. I always forget to ask seller till the last thing.


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## madman960 (Nov 30, 2009)

Sidney777,

The owner has the title and current registration for CA. It was in one of his ads on CL. I did ask to confirm.


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## Trekka (Jul 16, 2006)

Glad to hear you are going for it. You will be buying a tough little hull that should have a long life left in it. It is far tougher than typical boats of this size. (Except for the Flicka, as mentioned upstream, which sells for an astronomical price!) I concur with the others who say not to get into what special modifications and accessories you want yet. You have a way to go before you'd need them. Get the boat done basically for sailing and then after you have some experience with it you will know more about what you want to do. With a boat this small going simple is a virtue! 

Really pleasant to be visiting these forums again and seeing so many past and current Westerly owners!


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## madman960 (Nov 30, 2009)

Should I go ahead and replace the standing and running rigging while it is apart? I am well under my budget or at least I should be. I plan to keep the boat at least 5-10 years. Pros and cons of changing a boats name? The current name is "Sea Puppy". Not sure what I would change it to. Just seems kinda tame to me.

DB, If you pm me your email address I can forward you the brochure. It has a nice layout diagram at the bottom. 


Bill


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## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

I would make sure the standing rigging it wore out before I changed it. Usually standing rigging has a long life span. The running rigging also has a long lifespan but given the age of the boat it will probably need upgraded if it hasnt already.


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## madman960 (Nov 30, 2009)

MarkCK,

Thanks for the advice. 

Bill


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