# Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28



## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Well I took the plunge today. My offer on a 1966 HH 28 was accepted and I am a new owner. I am excited to get going fitting her out to go back in the water. The only potentially serious problem to be addressed is a frozen rudder. Using the wheel above and putting pressure on rudder below because she is on the hard, the rudder refuses to move at all. Even after dousing the shaft from above with WD40 overnight. Any ideas on how to approach a repair? The boat has been stored for a number of years so no doubt something has seized up over time. The seller says he had previously exercised the rudder regularly. He appeared as surprised as I that my third visit to see the boat revealed the frozen rudder. See pic but I am looking for ways to approach a fix. The rudder neither turns nor can it be dropped. Thanks.


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## Lake Superior Sailor (Aug 23, 2011)

I would check the linkage Between the wheel and the rudder, as depending what's there might be a real simple fix! You may be working on the wrong end, check the wheel..Dale


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

I can double check that but we started at the top. All pieces between wheel and rudder appear to be freely moving.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

HINTERHOELLER 28 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Wow! Congrats! You really like classic plastic boats, don't you?

Regarding the immobile rudder: are you sure that the quadrant and associated pulleys are cleanly rigged and working? I'd check the steering mechanism first as it may be holding the shaft stuck in one position.

If the rudder shaft/tube is the culprit you could try pouring a little vinegar down the tube and see if leaks out the bottom. If that is truly crudded up you may need to employ a coat hangar (or similar) to poke into the tube to try to break up an obstruction.

Some rudder shafts have a stuffing box fitting. I'd check for this as well. The packing in the stuffing box could also be responsible for immobilizing the shaft.

In any event, I hope it is an easy fix, for your sake.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

The top end appears to be working properly. But it does have a stuffing box. Vinegar eh? Can try that. ill work on it a bit this weekend. Probably just a matter of being persistent. I was considering getting two 2x4x8s and bolt them together sandwiching the rudder. That would give me 8' of leverage to see if I could break it loose. What do you think?


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Why vinegar?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I expect vinegar (a mild acid) is hoped to dissolve any corrosion that might be seizing the rudder.. I'd be cautious about applying too much leverage to the blade.. Is it truly, rigidly stuck or does it have some wiggle?

Try easing off the stuffing box and see what you find.. Did the WD40 run through? Repeated soakings of a better penetrant like PB blaster is worth a shot before you get too physical.

There may well be an upper AND/OR a lower bushing that could be the culprit...


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Since it has a stuffing box, I'd belay the vinegar for now.

Try loosening the stuffing box packing nut first.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

We did not see the wd40 come through. This may end up being one for a boatyard. Purchase price left plenty of room to let the pros have at it.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

I would not use brute force, you will most likely make matters worse.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

take some photos first! I'd think about a pipe wrench on the rudder shaft to give you leverage.. you don't want to use the wheel and cable for that. and you really don't want to be twisting on the rudder because the foam inside will loosen from the inside. "Kroil" is a really good penetrating product.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

PorFin said:


> Since it has a stuffing box, I'd belay the vinegar for now.
> 
> Try loosening the stuffing box packing nut first.


I tend to agree with you about belaying the use of vinegar, however mild its effect might be.

Since it is a mild acid it can help remove scale and rust that may have built up, but it certainly does not have to be the first course of action.

Belay the forcing the rudder for now and work on the stuffing box. For that you should use PB Blaster to soak the nuts (WD 40 not so much) and get a pair of wrenches you can use to exert force in the space provided.

Using brute force on most things boat related (except plumbing and engine related wrench work) can cause unintended consequences (eg., more to fix later).


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

This is a job for Kroil. Don't waste your time with WD40 or the like. Let it soak for days and keep adding more. Use some heat lamps. Maybe even order a gallon of Kroil and heat some up in a sauce pan before pouring it in (it is flammable so be careful).

Google Deal


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

deniseO30 said:


> *take some photos first! * I'd think about a pipe wrench on the rudder shaft to give you leverage.. you don't want to use the wheel and cable for that. and you really don't want to be twisting on the rudder because the foam inside will loosen from the inside. "Kroil" is a really good penetrating product.


I don't know the "Kroil" stuff - worth a try.

If you take more photos from the inside we can se what you see


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Let me add my voice to the "Kroil Chorus".

This stuff is incredible. Better, far better than WD-40, Liquid Wrench, or PBlaster. It may not work immediately, but it WILL work.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Thanks for folks. Will try the kroil. Being a noob I have to ask where to buy? Is that a Walmart item? Hoping to get some pix up today of new to me boat.


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## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

rbyham said:


> The only potentially serious problem to be addressed is a frozen rudder. Using the wheel above and putting pressure on rudder below because she is on the hard, the rudder refuses to move at all. ...The rudder neither turns nor can it be dropped. Thanks.


Well, this brings back nightmares! I had a similar experience with my 1983 Nonsuch 26, also built by Hinterhoeller. I have no idea whether your boat is constructed the same way mine was, but I'll give you the short version of my experience.

Wheel was getting harder and harder to turn. One day I came back to the boat (in the water) and the wheel was completely frozen. I figured the rudder shaft needed more grease, so I used the emergency tiller to "break free" the rudder and added grease. Seemed to work ok after that and I sailed the rest of the season. It was only I pulled the boat for the season I found out what the real problem was.

The rudder shaft goes throught a fiberglass tube called the rudder log. The log is held upright by three plywood struts and surrounded by fiberglass tabbing. Where the tube meets the hull there is caulk.

In my case, the log had completely seized on the rudder shaft. When I "broke free" the rudder what actually happened is that I broke the connections between the log and the plywood and fiberglass supports. Rather than the rudder shaft spinning freely inside the log, the shaft and log were spinning as a unit inside of the fiberglass tabbing. When I added grease, it only went between the log and the tabbing.

The fix: Contractor had to drop the rudder, rudder shaft, and log as a single unit out of the boat. They had to use a press to get the shaft out of the log. Because of grease contamination, they had to tear down and rebuild the plywood supports and tabbing.

It's now better than it was when it was new. But it wasn't an easy or cheap fix.

I hope that your problem is different and can be resolved with much less effort.
Jim


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

Another vote for let it soak...I wouldn't force it from below, you could cause some real damage.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

rbyham said:


> Thanks for folks. Will try the kroil. Being a noob I have to ask where to buy? Is that a Walmart item? Hoping to get some pix up today of new to me boat.


Unfortunately, you can only buy Kroil online.

Penetrating-Lubricating Oils

The good news is, they sell it in aerosol form and other good products as well. Go to the site, look over the products, and find the one that you think best applies to your situation.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

I found PB Buster available locally today so I have soaked her down real good. Still frozen but I also got pictures. See attached. I had a mobile marine tech on board as well to get his opinion. He could not see anything obvious but is willing to tackle it step by step. He did not think the gland thing could create enough grip to freeze the rudder. I think he suspects it is bent but I think that unlikely. My reasoning is that the seller has owned and sailed it extensively since 2000 and never had any grounding mishaps. The seller was as surprised as I to discover it frozen the day before we struck a deal. Anyway, see the pics. 

Jiminri that is a sad story and one I hope does not come to pass here. Looking at the photos I see no plywood struts nor tabbing so I am guessing this is a different setup. I guess only time will tell. Thanks all... Please note that the large run at the base of the orange "gland" is a ring clamp loosened already. There were 4 ring clamps on that gland piece but have been removed over the past several days as the seller who is quite handy made some last ditch attempts to rectify before we sealed the deal. I am still feeling good about the deal and confident we will see this one through but any and all feedback/guidance will be much appreciated. Please note that brute force which is normally my forte has been avoided. But it was fun stuffing my 6'2" 225lb frame into the port lazarette upside down to assess the situation and take the photos. Not sure I was build to go below ground on boats. The admiral thought it hilarious that she had to pull me out by my belt.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

My friend with a Nonsuch 26 had the same problem - stiff to turn, plywood webbing and tabbing letting go. Turns out it was extremely over greased (had a hose run to threaded fitting on tube and pumped with grease gun, not the way it was designed, builder-installed grease cup had been removed to make it 'convenient'). Had yard remove rudder, totally degrease tube, break out webbing and tabbing, realign stock in tube, then laminate in new plywood webbing - problem solved. It was so bad the grease was penetrating between the hull and the tabbing.

Same builder, different era, BUT maybe the same problem?


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## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

rbyham said:


> I found PB Buster available locally today so I have soaked her down real good.


Rbyham--I received the information that follows below in an email. I cannot vouch for the article, but at least one of the members of our Nonsuch group used the home brew mixture with good success. I had not heard of your boat before, but I googled it and it looks great. I've been really impressed with the build quality on my Hinterhoeller Nonsuch(es). I'm sure you'll be pleased and have fun.

"Machinist's Workshop" recently published information on various penetrating
oils. The magazine reports they tested these products for "break out
"torque" on rusted nuts and bolts. A subjective test was made of popular
penetrating oils, with the unit of merit being the torque required to
remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted" bolt.
Average torque load to loosen nut:
No Oil used ........................516 foot pounds
WD-40 ..................... ........238 foot pounds
PB Blaster .........................214 foot pounds
Liquid Wrench ......................127 foot pounds
Kano Kroil .........................106 foot pounds
ATF/Acetone mix...................... 53 foot pounds

The ATF/Acetone mix is a "home brew" mix of 50/50 automatic transmission
fluid and acetone. Note this "home brew" released bolts better than any
commercial product in this one particular test.
Our local machinist group mixed up a batch, and we all now use it with
equally good results. Note also that Liquid Wrench is almost as good as
Kroil for 20% of the price.
ATF/Acetone mix is best, but you can also use ATF and lacquer thinner in a
50/50 mix. ATF = Any type of Automatic Transmission Fluid


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

The Kroil is on order and Blaster is on it now. I will go over to the boat today and give her a good shot of the Acetone/ATF home brew mentioned above. Thanks all. If the treatments don't get it, I am turning this one over to the pros. As a beginner I want critical parts like rudder, mast, rigging to be set by pros in the hope that builds in an added safety level. But if anyone has other ideas I am all ears. Thanks!


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## algee (Feb 28, 2010)

Is there a shaft lock on the pedestal?


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

There is a knob on the Edson to lock the wheel. is that what you mean? That is loose and the wheel turns freely until the rudder seems to resist. Looking below while bumping the wheel, all cables and pulleys appear to be live as they move until hitting rudder resistance.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

RBY, , What do you think the pros are going to do? Same things you are trying! It's going to be VERY expensive for sure...You searched and searched for a nearly free boat because of cost.. It really is time for you to know about your boat and how it all works. Not much can't be learned if you take the time to self educate.

Has anyone suggested heating the rudder tube? NOT with open flame.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Thanks Denise... I hear you on needing to learn the boat. I do want to do that. My background is fairly strong in RVs so understanding most of the systems is something I already have. But the specifically nautical pieces (rigging, mast, steering/rudder) are all new. But I see the logic in your thoughts. I will see how it goes... Heating has been suggested from the standpoint of heating the Kroil (which I know is flammable). Are you thinking like hair dryer or heat gun? Not a bad idea. Unfortunately the yard I am in has no elec or water.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Heat gun and portable generator? Is there any give at all in the rudder shaft up down even? Photos would help us help you for sure on this. 
If it has a fiberglass tube between the deck and hull. or from the hull up to the packing gland.. maybe you could spilt the tube with a small right angle saw wheel then spread the slot with something like a wedge, would be easier then ripping out the tube. 
A Dremel tool may be too light for the task. Assuming.. this is the problem.. you need to crawl in there! I have in my boat to drop the rudder.. LOL


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Can you access the top end of the rudder shaft? I'm thinking loosen everything on the shaft - quadrant etc. then hold a piece of pipe of the same diameter as the shaft on the top end and some "firm" taps with a big dead blow hammer.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

I did get a little deeper into the rudder shaft issue today. I have all kinds of penetrating fluids working for me. I believe the top “bushing” is free as fluids pretty much drip right through onto the quadrant. But the bottom/hull seal appears to be a different story. You can see in the pictures that the bottom seal was originally a packing gland wrapped by the orange colored hose. Above that is the bottom side of a flange in which I believe packing rope got sandwiched by a second flange that slid down from above and bolted to the lower still visible flange. This made the watertight seal. Unfortunately the upper flange snapped into three pieces upon removal. 

Regardless, with the upper part of the seal now broken it would appear I am either looking at finding the original flange (where does one order these things?) or upgrading the whole thing with an updated rudder seal. Hopefully I could find a replacement seal that fit the bolt pattern on the hull thus avoiding having to rework the hull too. Either way I am looking at dropping the rudder in order to get the flange or new seal in place. So I still have to deal with whatever is frozen in order to drop the shaft. 

I am not discouraged. I was prepared for this kind of job and had already adjusted the purchase price. Plus there is nothing like hanging upside down in a lazarette for 4 hours to help one learn one’s new boat.

I am still attracted to the idea of heat. That might loosen things. Also I can access the top of the rudder post yes. However, I think there is a pin in the top of the shaft somewhere holding it all up. I am having trouble locating the pin. Once located and removed I may give her a few gentle taps. 

See photos for details.

Rick


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Looks like yours is Edson stuff Rudder Post Stuffing Box/Bearing : Edson Marine Store


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Yep I think ya nailed it. So now how to dig what is left of the old stuffing box out of the tubing? I think digging that out of the tubing will free the shaft as well. Probably the stuffing box/bearing is what is seized. Maybe some heat?  Feels like lots of corrosion in there. But identifying parts is a big help. Thanks. 

Looks like the lower part of the stuffing box on mine was held to the tubing using some sort of adhesive inside the rubber wrap/hose (orange thing). On the Edson site it appears they are now recommending that be glassed instead of the hose setup. Is that the way you see/read it? 

Thanks D...


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

rbyham said:


> I did get a little deeper into the rudder shaft issue today. I have all kinds of penetrating fluids working for me. I believe the top "bushing" is free as fluids pretty much drip right through onto the quadrant. But the bottom/hull seal appears to be a different story. You can see in the pictures that the bottom seal was originally a packing gland wrapped by the orange colored hose. Above that is the bottom side of a flange in which I believe packing rope got sandwiched by a second flange that slid down from above and bolted to the lower still visible flange. This made the watertight seal. Unfortunately the upper flange snapped into three pieces upon removal.


Are you able to dig out the "packing rope" it would make it easiser for the oil's you are using to go further down.



rbyham said:


> Regardless, with the upper part of the seal now broken it would appear I am either looking at finding the original flange (where does one order these things?) or upgrading the whole thing with an updated rudder seal. Hopefully I could find a replacement seal that fit the bolt pattern on the hull thus avoiding having to rework the hull too. Either way I am looking at dropping the rudder in order to get the flange or new seal in place. So I still have to deal with whatever is frozen in order to drop the shaft.
> 
> I am not discouraged. I was prepared for this kind of job and had already adjusted the purchase price. Plus there is nothing like hanging upside down in a lazarette for 4 hours to help one learn one's new boat.
> 
> ...


You must drop the ruder so you can inspect the rudder shaft.
I would start by dismantling the parts you can get access to.
The rudder quadrant must be taken off, seems to be made of aluminium.
Gentle heating with a torch can help release the SS bolts.

The ring in your picture between the stuffing box and the quadrant - do you know what purpose it have?

If you have to replace the stuffing box and bearings I would look at alternative solutions. 
New solutions have been found since the boat was new 

Here is a company with info on different solutions.
Jefa rudder and steering systems
direct link to an upgrade 
Converting from plain bearings to roller bearings
Here is alternative solutions to get a seal
Sealing systems


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

My next move, maybe today is to dig out the packing rope so the Blaster stuff can get down in. Hopefully that and locating whatever holding pins are at the top of the shaft will release the rudder to drop. I assume there is something holding the shaft somewhere along the way. I suspect some sort of pinon the top end. I agree that quadrant has to come out. I will look at that today to see what is the easiest way. I have never disassembled steering gear like this before. Once I get the shaft out, my next move would be to determine how best to rebuild. I would be open to alternative/newer solutions. I assumed that improvements had been made since 1966.  But I would prefer to use the tube bolted to the hull as I dont want to mess with anything thru hull unless I must. I also agree that a little heat might be my option to get the old stuffing box freed up. I am trying to screw up my courage to go below with a butane torch. There is plenty of room below and fire extinguishers on hand if I could find something fireproof to lay down there for more protection I would feel better. Any ideas?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Here's a link to the types of tools typically used to remove packing from gland seals.. these will help immensely if you can find a couple of each...

Packing Extractor and Packing Extractor Tools & Hooks by C.S. OSBORNE & CO.

If you're successful removing the packing material that might be all it will take to free things up.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

rbyham said:


> My next move, maybe today is to dig out the packing rope so the Blaster stuff can get down in. Hopefully that and locating whatever holding pins are at the top of the shaft will release the rudder to drop. I assume there is something holding the shaft somewhere along the way. I suspect some sort of pinon the top end. I agree that quadrant has to come out. I will look at that today to see what is the easiest way. I have never disassembled steering gear like this before. Once I get the shaft out, my next move would be to determine how best to rebuild. I would be open to alternative/newer solutions. I assumed that improvements had been made since 1966.  But I would prefer to use the tube bolted to the hull as I dont want to mess with anything thru hull unless I must. I also agree that a little heat might be my option to get the old stuffing box freed up. I am trying to screw up my courage to go below with a butane torch. There is plenty of room below and fire extinguishers on hand if I could find something fireproof to lay down there for more protection I would feel better. Any ideas?


Denise earlier suggested a portable generator and a heat gun. If you don't have either, you can buy a cheap 1000W generator for less than $100.- and a heat gun for less than 20.- (if there is no better place, use Harborfreight). This seems a much better solution than an open flame. And of course both will likely be of use in the future for other projects.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

lower tube is through bolted.. looks like he can dig it out.. start new.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

I was wondering about the lower tube. But wouldn't a new tube be required to match old bolt pattern? Otherwise I am modifying the hull which sounds like a lot more work to me. But if I tear up the tube getting the stuffing box out a new tube is the only way to go.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

rbyham said:


> I was wondering about the lower tube. But wouldn't a new tube be required to match old bolt pattern? Otherwise I am modifying the hull which sounds like a lot more work to me. But if I tear up the tube getting the stuffing box out a new tube is the only way to go.


Today rudder tubes are fixed to the hull using fiberglass and polyester or epoxy.

If you need a new rudder tube and decide to keep the bolts you get the holes in the new flange drilled to fit or you can patch up the old holes and drill new.

It's difficult to see on the picture, the flange is on the outside of the hull?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Not to belabour the obvious but you DO have some sort of blocking under the rudder for when you get it loose, right?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Silly question.. the boat is out of the water? guess the lower tube is imbedded just like cutless struts are on many boats. suggestion; save the rudder and shaft, the rest can be made re-made better.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

After reading all the suggestions... why not use two people to get it loose?... One can be turning the pulley inside the boat while the other person turns the rudder in the same direction applying the same loads and in the process loosen the stuck rudder... what you don't want to do is apply loads in area of a joint/bearing... the use of the lubricant will help some but I think either way you'll be applying some loads to loosen it at some point... worth a try... do it in both directions back and forth but in concert with both applying the same loads and direction....


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Well I did not have a lot of timeo n the project today but there is a new and I think very significant development. I purchased 2 2x4s at Home Depot along with two threaded bolts. Drilling the 2x4s and bolting them in sandwich form around the rudder, I was able to take advantage of the additional leverage to slowly try to turn the rudder back and forth. At first there was no movement. After about 10 tugs, We felt a pop and suddenly could move the rudder about 3 inches each side of center/straight. Unfortunately as we checked down inside to insure we were not doing damage, we learned that what was turning was not the shaft but rather the whole stuffing box/bearing unit was turning inside the tube. Though initially discouraged I came away thinking that at minimum, we now know what the problem is - the stuffing box/bearing is seized on the shaft. 

But solutions that present sound complicated. In fact the only one that comes to my mind is to cut the bearing off the shaft with something like a dremel tool. That might let the rudder drop out enough to install a new stuffing/gear box and bolt things back up.


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

The packing removal tools described above are the right tools to get out the packing. You should use two hooks simultaneously -- on opposite sides of the shaft. Old packing can really be a bear to get out. If dry it's stiff; it wet it's swollen. In a pinch I've gotten out packing using drywall screws. Keep in mind that the packing was square when it was installed, that is, the depth of each ring = .5 x (ID of the tube - OD of the shaft). You want to remove one ring at a time.

Since there is a grease cup, there probably is a lantern ring where the the grease was fed into the stuffing box. Given the age of the boat the lantern ring, it is probably made of bronze. The surfaces of the lantern rings that abut the packing typically have holes in them. You need to hook in those holes to pull out the lantern ring as with the packing you should use two hooks simultaneously -- on opposite sides of the shaft. Otherwise the lantern ring will be cocked. After you get out the lantern ring there will probably be two or three more rings of packing to be removed.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

get a right angle grinder with cut off wheel, they cut metal like cheese. Do make allot of sparks so you want NO gasoline about.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Hudson I am not following you. Are you saying there is more packing in that stuffing box and it is under something called a lantern ring? Hmmm. I have no idea what the grease cup is either. Can you point out location of grease cup and lantern ring in the pics? I would be happy to go digging deeper into the stuffing box but the surface that shows in my photos was below some packing and is very hard. I assume it was the bottom of the box. If this is not so maybe there is still hope to unfreeze it. Let me know. Denise... I hear you on the grinder and if I go that route would be very careful. One of my big challenges is that we are in a rental here in Charleston and my tools are all deeply buried in storage awaiting purchase of a home. So the grinder, the dremel, and the sawzall cannot be located. That is another reason I am thinking to hire this done. I ave bought a few tools needed along the way but dont want to keep doing that and ending up with duplicates. Thanks folks.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Someone sent me this link: Upgrading the autopilot with a new linear drive A similar situation with what appears to me to be a unique solution. I have never heard of a "gaiter". Any thoughts? It would seem to me that if I go to all the trouble of cutting off the old stuffing box the rudder would drop easily making it quite simple to get and install a new Edson stuffing box.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I don't know that it's good on wheel steering boats.. the actuator would have to be rather beefy to move all the hardware. But I don't actually know. others here may. 
I like wheel pilot. my boat has an old raymarine 3000. works well..


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

rbyham said:


> Someone sent me this link: Upgrading the autopilot with a new linear drive A similar situation with what appears to me to be a unique solution.


That is my project 
Here is another rudder related project Dropped the rudder for inspection



rbyham said:


> I have never heard of a "gaiter". Any thoughts? It would seem to me that if I go to all the trouble of cutting off the old stuffing box the rudder would drop easily making it quite simple to get and install a new Edson stuffing box.


You really don't know until the old stuffing box is off, if the rudder shaft is damaged on the bearing surface, a new stuffing box bearing will be damaged.

The recommendation from Jefa is that you can use the gaitor if the rudder tube goes at least 100 mm above waterline.

You can read more about it here Sealing systems
The whole point of this design is that you need a top and a bottom bearing The gaitor is there only to keep water out
On my boat they look like this:

Top bearing assembly 









The top bearing 









Locking ring









The bottom bearing
http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/knuterikt/rudde_with_lower_bearing.jpg


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

deniseO30 said:


> I don't know that it's good on wheel steering boats.. the actuator would have to be rather beefy to move all the hardware.


There is not much friction in the steering system, I can grab hold of the rudder an turn it from full starboard to full port with my hands.

The drive unit (actuator) has an electrically operated clutch that is operated by the course computer, as soon as as the AP go into standby or is turned of the clutch disengages. The clutch engages when the AP is in pilot mode.



deniseO30 said:


> But I don't actually know. others here may.
> I like wheel pilot. my boat has an old raymarine 3000. works well..


It's what is used on most larger sailboats today, the actuator is rather beefy

The linear drive that I'm installing is sized for boats 20' to 45'.
The output force is 400 kg (881 lb) giving me a rudder torque of 100 KgM with a 25cm tiller arm.

I guess your old raymarine is something similar to the SPX-5

Raymarine give these figures
SPX-5 wheel pilot	7,500kg (16,500 lbs) Maximum boat displacement
Type 1 linear drive 11,000 kg (24,000 lb)Maximum boat displacement, Peak thrust 295 kg (650 lb)
Type 2 Short linear drive 15,000 kg (33,000 lb) Maximum boat displacement, Peak thrust 480 kg (1,050 lb)
Type 2 Long linear drive 20,000 kg (44,000 lb) Maximum boat displacement, Peak thrust 480 kg (1,050 lb)


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Impressive stuff!


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

I still face removing old stuffing box just above rudder tube. Will likely angle grinder it off. Then I can see Shaft condition and go from there. Not sure if I have lower bearing. Time will tell.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

rbyham said:


> I still face removing old stuffing box just above rudder tube. Will likely angle grinder it off. Then I can see Shaft condition and go from there. Not sure if I have lower bearing. Time will tell.


Should go without saying, but...

Be very, very careful as you get close to completing your cut through the broken part -- you really want to avoid nicking your rudder post with the angle grinder (or whatever tool you choose to employ.)

Good luck and let us know how it goes.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Thanks for that warning. I was thinking to start with angle grinder and finish with dremel. I just wish i was 5'7" instead of my 6'2" for getting down in the port lazarette. The PO demonstrated how he could go down there feet first easily. Me has to go in head first and hang upside down. Oh well. I will take my time and tie rudder up first. I plan to attack it all this coming weekend.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

I am now thinking to attempt full packing extraction as a step prior to cutting the stuffing box off the shaft. Studying the photos I have come to believe that there are a few layers of rope still in there. If I can get them out I may be able to free the stuffing box and bearing. So for now Iwill belay the angle grinder. My question is what are some secrets I might employ to remove what has become a very hardened packing rope? I am thinking things like drilling, heating, chiseling with sharpened small screwdriver, etc. Ae there other efforts I can employ? Anything chemical? Thanks..


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

Usta be a tool for pulling rear main seals like a skinny screwdriver iwith a threaded end..like a long shafted wood screw. Mebbe use a 3" drywall screw? or a dental pick...or a walnut meat picker? Tools abound...just ta find the right one!


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

Look at the catalogue cuts from C.S. Osborne (Faster posted a link above). These are the standard tools for pulling packing. 

The packing is probably a square flax braid. The flax (linen) is saturated with bee's wax. Over the years this can become quite stiff. It is easier to remove one ring at a time. Generally the flexible packing is cut to length, shaped around the shaft, and tamped to the bottom of the stuffing box. Each ring is put on top of the last in exactly the same way except that the joints are staggered. If there are three rings the joints are offset 120 degrees.

If you are lucky you'll hook into the packing near the cut. Try hooking the packing with two hooks, picks, or screws on opposite sides and working up one side and then the other.

As I said previously, if there's a grease cup on the stuffing box there will be a lantern ring. The lantern ring will be two piece and have holes in the upward face. You should hook into those holes to remove the lantern ring so you can get at the packing beneath it. Additionally, if the packing was greased the grease is porbably caked up. Use kerosene or some other solvent to remove the smutz.

Boiling water will make the bee's wax more pliable. Be patient. Be persistent. You'll get it.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

deltaten said:


> *Usta be a tool for pulling rear main seals like a skinny screwdriver iwith a threaded end.*.like a long shafted wood screw. Mebbe use a 3" drywall screw? or a dental pick...or a walnut meat picker? Tools abound...just ta find the right one!


It's called a Gimlet - like a fine corkscrew.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

deltaten said:


> Usta be a tool for pulling rear main seals like a skinny screwdriver iwith a threaded end..like a long shafted wood screw. Mebbe use a 3" drywall screw? or a dental pick...or a walnut meat picker? Tools abound...just ta find the right one!


From my link previous:










These come in various sizes, and even in threaded-end versions for launder rings.. use two at a time helps, but you need to match the tool to the packing size.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Thanks for the help on tools. Where does one buy these?


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

McMaster-Carr, Grainger, or a local pump supply house.

This information Pump Packing Installation is for replacing the packing on a pump. The principles are the same. Just imagine a pump with a shaft as big as your rudder stock. Don't use graphite packing, however.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

So today was first day of outright boat ownership. So all the tools are out. After about 6 hours of Blaster, Kroil that has been on frozen stuffing box for a week, torch/heat, grinder to ease the two sides of the stuffing box, some close to shaft dremel work, with lastly some sledge hammer on screwdriver applied to side of box, it it still frozen. No movement at all. Zero.. The stuffing box will now turn I side the lower tie but that is it. Not sure what to try next. I also removed all quadrant bolts including the thru-shaft and tried applying sledge to top of shaft. Same result. So what next? I am not frustrated. This will resolve. And the hours spent today have taught much about the boat from companion way to stern. So all is well. Just need a few ideas and
maybe more time for kroil to work. Is it ever a good idea to think about cutting off and removing the lower tube and start from hull up? For those new to this thread see photos above. Thanks all. I won't do much til next weekend.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Are you still trying to free the stock rotation? or trying to remove the rudder outright? or both?? Just to be clear.. all the cables/etc are disconnected and the bare blade/stock in the tube is what's 'stuck'. Given that the stuffing box is still in place do you have any confidence that the penetrants and solvents have actually made it down inside the lower tube section? Anything dripped out below the boat?


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Yes I am till trying to free the rudder shaft rotation. I assume that to be precursor to dropping the rudder Shaft. Assuming the stuffing box will need to be cut off, I anticipate having to drop the rudder in order tonjnsert new stuffing box. In terms of pennants, it does NOT appear they are getting down through box and rudder tube. Whatever stuffing is still there is hard as concrete. Very hard to penetrate. I can move the rudder from below by sandwiching it with 8' 2x4s for leverage. With leverage I can move rudder about 3" either side of straight ahead. The problem is that the shaft is still frozen to the box and the box is spinning inside the rudder tube. I am beginning to wonder what all is inside the rudder tube and how far iinto the tube the box extends. I also wonder about the top of the rudder Shaft. I have not found one but would not be surprised to find it keyed.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Unless the quadrant actually rested on the gland there will be some sort of key/washer/retainer to prevent the rudder from dropping. Usually access to the top of the stock is retained to enable use of an emergency tiller.. Got anything like that?

Btw I'd be willing to bet the boat was originally tiller steered.. Any indication of that? In the 60s wheels were kinda rare under 30 feet or so.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

The quadrant was not on the bladder. It had a key but obviously was not the key holding the rudder shaft up. So yes there must be something else. See the pic of the rudder topside in the cockpit. Yes it was originally tiller steered. The small whole visible on the shaft head does not appears to be a key. I ran wire all the way through and found nothing. See pics.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

rbyham said:


> The quadrant was not on the bladder. It had a key but obviously was not the key holding the rudder shaft up. So yes there must be something else. See the pic of the rudder topside in the cockpit. Yes it was originally tiller steered. The small whole visible on the shaft head does not appears to be a key. I ran wire all the way through and found nothing. See pics.


That sure looks like a woodruff key on the front side of the shaft. Also, the top of the shaft appears a bit beaten up (pounding on it?) I'd recommend grinding a small chamfer on the top edge of the shaft as well as ensuring that is either not a key or removing it if it is.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I think i can see a set screw hole in the side of the collar below the keypiece.. (don't think that's a woodruff, looks a straight keypiece to me but either way it's gotta come out.) Probably an allen key hex sunk into the collar, and there should be one on each side at least. I don't think that old fibre top 'bushing' will need to come out (with the one loose bolt).

EDIT:



> small whole visible on the shaft head does not appears to be a key. I ran wire all the way through and found nothing. See pics.


Is the hole you're referring to the one I think I'm seeing? in the shinier collar piece against the deck? There could be a spring pin in there then, if you're getting a wire through it. A spring pin would look like this in the hole: Get a dentists mirror and have a look....


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

You could be right - it appears to me that the bottom of it (near the collar) sits "in" more than at the top end - the way woodruffs "rock" sometimes. Either way, it sure looks like a key that has to come out.

You're probably right about the roll pin - that needs a drift of the right size to tap it out. I've never seen a roll pin used on a rudder shaft before.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

I think you are both correct on the Woodruff. But my guess is the purpose is to serve as connector for emergency tiller which I do have onboard. As far as a spring pin that could be accurate as well. I will explore further on that one. Finding right sized drift may be a challenge but I agree something of a pin sort must be holding the rudder up in addition to the frozen box below. The only other thought I have is that below on the shaft just above stuffing box was a collar type thing held in place by two Allen wrench screws. Still not sure what that is for. You can see it in orig photos.


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## Sea Dawg (Jun 26, 2012)

You're going to have to cut out the stuffing box from the hull... Tearing it out is what appears inevitable, and there may be collateral damage not intended. Further, from the top side appears there is serious interferences that will hinder extricating the stuffing box. Also, if you successfully remove the top half stuffing box I believe you'll still have to remove the bottom. Whereas removing the bottom MAY get you access to split the upper box from your access. A small hole in the hull or from above would be my first attempt so you are no longer working in the blind. I'd use a hole saw to make an access perhaps above and below. A core hole can easily be patched without compromising the strength. Again, just need care to select that first hole for a look see.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Thanks Dawg you may ultimately be right but opening new holes especially through the hull will be a last resort for me. I am still optimistic that I can figure out how to use my grinder to clamshell the stuffing box (there is only one just above the rudder tube) off of the rudder shaft. Once the stuffing box is released and all keys removed with quadrant loosened as it is now, the rudder should drop. I have it tied up for now just in case I get really lucky and the thing slides out while I am on a business trip this week.  But thanks for the ideas. I will keep that in mind as we move along. I actually have decent access to below decks as I found yesterday my 6'2" 220lbs fits completely into the port lazarette. Mind you it is an advance seated yoga position but once there can work/grind/drill/saw/whatever quite comfortably.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Faster is on it - these boats were almost entirely tiller boats, wheel was not likely even an option from Hinterhoeller back in the 60's unless someone insisted, so it could be after market. If George was still alive I'd drive over and ask him.

View it as a tiller boat. Rudder inserted from below into the tube, through the stuffing box/packing gland, through the cockpit sole and through the cast aluminum bearing plate that is fastened to the cockpit with 4 screws. Hole in the top of the stock would be for the original tiller to connect. It was a simple design, so keep it simple.

You have the quadrant disconnected, there is nothing clamping the stock above deck. In theory it should just drop out. I'm understanding the gland is fastened to the rudder tube similar to a driveshaft packing gland - rubber hose, hose clamp(s), other end of hose clamped to the bronze gland (Perko, Buck-Algonquin), shaft comes out the top end headed north. Gland screws together like a lid on a jar, should have a locknut on it too. If that is all loose/removed there should be travel. I'm thinking environmental corrosion, disimilar metals bonding, maintenance neglect over the years, likely near the bearing plate cause that is the primary entry area for salt water, dirt, etc.

When you force it, does the shaft rotate in the bearing plate on deck? Have you removed the screws from the bearing plate? Does it rotate freely now? It could be frozen there.

You might want to contact Bob Reese (he could be in FL for the winter) at Beneteau, Back Cove Yachts, Sabre Yachts, Used Boats, J Boats, Dealer for Sailboats and Power Boats, Parts, Services, Financing - They were volume dealers for Hinterheoller and Bob or someone in his shop might have your answer, a drawing, or some other advise.

This is a simple boat with a vexingly simple problem.


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## pvanv1 (Nov 16, 2007)

Rick, 

The square key (it is not a woodruff) at the top of the bronze shaft was for the original rudder head. That was bolted to the original tiller head. Immediately below that was a 1/4" ss pin with cotters that rode against a large fiber thrust washer. That was all changed when the boat was converted to wheel. None of that gear holds the shaft up today; that's now accomplished at the lower bearing/gaiter/flange/tube assembly. As a long-time HR-28 owner, and having dropped my own rudder before, I am 100% sure of how the original tiller setup worked. The top aluminum ring (with the 4 bolts -- probably 3/16 ss -- is merely a trim plate -- nothing functional at all. Mine is teak (with bronze wood screws), and I still have the original tiller setup.

Bob Reese is definitely in Fla., and may well not remember conversions, but certainly well worth asking. Likewise, Don Finkle of RCR may remember some conversions. You can contact him via the RCR yachts website.

If you are unable to free the gland assembly while still on the shaft, you will need to cut it off the shaft -- being careful not to nick the shaft, of course. A small grinder, possibly a dremel, or ultimately a cold chisel may split it into 2 or more pieces. Later, you will want a new bearing/seal/gland that fits the rudder tube... or just replace the tube. The hull is solid laminate, and is easily machined as needed to accommodate a new flange is necessary.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

The expert opinions weighing in here are very helpful. I am led to believe that I am on the right track. It is unfortunate I suppose but the gland/box has failed to release on the shaft. So I will be cutting it off. The challenge is doing that without cutting into the rudder tube. So both are probably toast. Once off I can probably get a new tube fabricated locally and order a new 2" box/bearing. Edson appears to have just what I need. I am a little nervous about nicking the shaft but will be careful. I am also nervous about releasing the rudder tube from the hull. The four bolts will come up but it appears bedded in some sort of white adhesive. But it is good to know that once the box/gland is cut away it should drop. Thanks folks. I am on the road til the weekend but will update then with progress


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

rbyham said:


> I will be cutting it off. The challenge is doing that without cutting into the rudder tube. So both are probably toast.


I wouldn't try to cut completely through it with a cutoff wheel - very difficult to avoid cutting into the shaft unless you are a real artiste with a grinder.

I'd notch it deeply but also well clear of the shaft with a cutoff wheel and then finish up with a sharp cold chisel. Any dings you make in the shaft that way can be buffed or sanded off - or at least reduced to the point they are of no concern.

You're going to want to fine wet sand & polish the shaft anyway, no matter what.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

My thought on cutting off is a sawzall with new metal blade. It seems to me I could almost lay the bad right alongside and at same angle as rudder and follow it down. There might be some minor nicking but sanding should care for that. Grinding largely turns the disk into the rudder where it seems there is greater risk of developing deeper scars.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

With a small angle grinder and a zip blade cutter with a firm hand you should be able to cut 90% of the way through and then somehow open the rest up another way. Remember you only need to cut into the packing, peel the shells off to expose the packing and then deal with that. If you nick the lower tube you can easily reglass that.

I tried using a sawzall for a recent project and was kind of amazed at how little control you have over that bucking beast....

Your stock is bronze, not SS so it's going to get marred pretty easily.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Ye God, using a sawzall for this would be like using a machete to perform brain surgery.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Haha! I will make a video for you


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Ye God, using a sawzall for this would be like using a machete to perform brain surgery.


Totally agree - a Sawzall is a demolition tool, not a precision one. It should only be used along with sledgehammers, crowbars and the like.

You want to be thinking more along the lines of a Dremel in this case.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

OK I am backing away from the sawzall and picking up the angle grinder and dremel... so I can get it loose and whack it with a sledge hammer (just kidding)  Thanks.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Here's something I posted about my own experience with a spade rudder - you may need it later.

*Rudder installation*
I learned a VERY hard lesson over the past two days. I was re-installing my rudder - long tubed spade. The hull had to be 9' up to gain the necessary clearance to start the shaft in the tube. The shaft is thick wall stainless pipe with a web and foam/glass over and it is VERY heavy - a heavy two man job to move it.

The tube is angled back at about 20 degrees and the bottom of the blade is a continuous curve so very difficult to block or position a jack.

Beforehand I figured - no problem - set up blocking right at hand, two guys pick it up and get the shaft started in the tube and block it. Once that's done, slide it in and block it again while connecting the quadrant - easy right?

NOT.

Due to the angled tube and the curved bottom on the rudder, the shaft had a tendency to c0ck in the tube and jam when trying to get the shaft to engage the top bearing - there's a gap between the top of the tube and the top bearing where the quadrant fits over the shaft. Lining that up was a ***** due to the fact that the top of the shaft was simply squarely cut off pipe. Even when it was partially engaged in the bearing it had a tendency to dig in and jam due to the unavoidable side forces caused by the angled tube.

Here's the hard learned tip: If you have to reinstall this type of rudder, before you do anything else, grind a tapered bevel on the top 1/4" or so of the shaft, round it over and sand it smooth. This will make a huge difference in how easily it engages and slides - it will eliminate the tendency for the leading edge to dig into the bearing from the side forces as you slide it up.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Another hard learned tip - if you DO have to end up beating on it to get it out, get a big dead-blow hammer. They are plastic encased and contain a big slug of loose shot inside the head - this "surges" to the contact face when it strikes and cuts way down on the rebound of the hammer, transferring more force into the struck object. The plastic cover obviously helps to eliminate marring the struck surface.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

would hate to see you blow the bottom out around the lower flange that looks to be in the glass.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

deniseO30 said:


> would hate to see you blow the bottom out around the lower flange that looks to be in the glass.


Well... maybe not THAT big a hammer.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Thanks all. Good ideas, lessons, and warnings. I will take it a step at a time. I can imagine installing the shaft back will be challenging as it has to slide through quadrant and top bearing basically at same time. For lift I was planning to rope under the rudder and up to both topside winches. That should allow for slow winching up of shaft. But keeping her pointed in right direction will be challenging. For now it is one challenge at a time with the cutting of the box/bearing being the immediate future (this weekend).


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## pvanv1 (Nov 16, 2007)

Yes, definitely cut 90% or so through, and then use a cold chisel powered by a small hand sledge to pop the rest off. Very low risk of nicking the shaft. A nice tool is the RotoZip, equipped with the right-angle drive and a small, approximately 3" diamond blade. Great control, narrow kerf, and diminutive tool size. The rudder stock was SS from the factory; the bronze visible at the top was a "slug" inserted in it, machined to match the diameter of the tiller/rudder head assembly. And... that bronze slug is a little smaller diameter than the rudder stock. When I reinserted mine, I did it single-handedly, then blocked the rudder up and had a helper "scooch" it up the last 1/4 inch so I could reinsert that pin at the top (which yours no longer uses -- yours may be in that bearing/gland hub, or it may not be a pin at all... just a clamp mechanism). FWIW, that's my HR-28, hull 53, in my avatar. I have some experience with the HR-28.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Well I had about 2 hours on the boat this afternoon. Poured on some of the newly arrived Kroil. I got a pipe wrench on the box/bearing but no luck. It is still frozen. I was going to just let the Kroils sit overnight but as I was about to depart I took another look at the top of the box/bearing and my sawzall sitting there.  With careful aim I decided the sawzall would work well to trim off the three ears of the box/bearing. I was right. Like butter it cut down and through the ears. But with ears off all I got in the way of progress was greater ease of getting a pipe wrench on. Still frozen. So then I took the blade of the sawzall and laid it exactly alongside and at same angle as the rudder shaft. Again it cut like butter with no marring of shaft. I did this for about one half the circumference of the shaft. So she is half way peeled back like a banana down to the rudder tube. I dosed her good with Kroils and will go back in the morning. The challenge I fear will be peeling the box/bearing down to the tube but then the part inside the tube still being frozen. I do not want to injure the tube or the shaft. Both will be used back. So hopefully tomorrow as the Kroils works and I peel the rest of the way around the shaft, she will come loose. Otherwise I will have to figure out how to get the remaining section still down in the tube... but for now, one step at a time...


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Give the Kroil time and maybe some passive heat to expand things. Can you get some heat lamps in there?


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

RobGallagher said:


> Give the Kroil time and maybe some passive heat to expand things. Can you get some heat lamps in there?


This is good advice: let the Kroil have a few days to work. Passive heat too.

Have patience and it will come apart peacefully. If you have no patience you can take it off in pieces, with a Sawzall!


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

A quick progress report. No video but here is apicture of current status. As you can see one side of the shaft is now exposed down to top of rudder tube. I am tryign to preserve shaft (obviously) and tube. My hope is to see the stuffing box loosen as I dround it in Kroils. Will try heat tomorrow as well. So far no movement. Have used large pipe wrench on it but will not budge. The rudder is lashed form below in case it suddenly frees up. Any other ideas??? Thanks.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Now that you have it exposed, is there any likelihood of being able to dig out the old packing material? Is it truly solidified or a fibrous mush?


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

All indications are that there is no more packing in her. I cut one of the ears off whole giving me a cLear picture of the side of the box and I am down to aluminum. Now the kroil and heat need to work. I don't want to cut off more of box lest I have nothing left to get a wrench on. If I cut her flush to top of box and she does not free up my only option be to open the rudder which would necessitate fabrication of a new one. Something I want to avoid.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Kroil, Kroil, Kroil and heat. I might not be apposed to two weeks of heat and daily Kroil re-application.

The key here is giving it time to penetrate. If it's locked up that tight it will take T I M E. There are many virtues in life, time and lubrication are at the top of most people list


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I'd start using that dead blow hammer and twisting the rudder back & forth like you described earlier.

Nothing too extreme - just firmly & steadily, alternating from one to the other.

If you can't get anywhere with that and the penetrant, a more serious attack would be to slit the rudder tube lengthwise and wedge it open. Then the rudder would HAVE to drop out (I think ). You could repair the tube simply by wrapping it with some layers of epoxy & glass fabric.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

rbyham said:


> All indications are that there is no more packing in her. I cut one of the ears off whole giving me a cLear picture of the side of the box and I am down to aluminum. Now the kroil and heat need to work. I don't want to cut off more of box lest I have nothing left to get a wrench on. If I cut her flush to top of box and she does not free up my only option be to open the rudder which would necessitate fabrication of a new one. Something I want to avoid.


If you are down to aluminum and no more packing... I think you might be galling metal to metal and no amount of Kroil or heat is going to loosen that rudder... your alternative is brute force or cutting the tube to loosen it... it's unfortunate you put all this effort to finally have to resort to drastic measures.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

guitarguy56 said:


> If you are down to aluminum and no more packing... I think you might be galling metal to metal and no amount of Kroil or heat is going to loosen that rudder... your alternative is brute force or cutting the tube to loosen it... it's unfortunate you put all this effort to finally have to resort to drastic measures.


You could be correct, but since there is no rush I would allow some heat for expansion, time, lubrication and penetration. If it does not work then at least we know all options have been expended.

I dated my first girl in high school for more than two weeks until time, heat, lubrication and penetration finally worked itself out. I think this boat owner can outlast my virginity :laugher


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

RobGallagher said:


> You could be correct, but since there is no rush I would allow some heat for expansion, time, lubrication and penetration. If it does not work then at least we know all options have been expended.
> 
> I dated my first girl in high school for more than two weeks until time, heat, lubrication and penetration finally worked itself out. I think this boat owner can outlast my virginity :laugher


A little KY jelly never hurts (oops)... :laugher

Seriously... that would have to be a lot of heat... that's a large piece of metal to heat up and the heat sink is too much to warm anything up to expand... of course a torch might do the trick with some brute force...


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Got a torch. I do think I am down to aluminum and stainless shaft. What is galling? I can give it til about Tuesday at which point I getup against preferred splash date.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

SloopJonB said:


> I'd start using that dead blow hammer and twisting the rudder back & forth like you described earlier.
> 
> Nothing too extreme - just firmly & steadily, alternating from one to the other.
> 
> If you can't get anywhere with that and the penetrant, a more serious attack would be to slit the rudder tube lengthwise and wedge it open. Then the rudder would HAVE to drop out (I think ). You could repair the tube simply by wrapping it with some layers of epoxy & glass fabric.


Can you elaborate on wrapping the split tube? I would be concerned about getting the tube back to orig strength. In the event splitting the tube becomes my only option I would like to know more.


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## pvanv1 (Nov 16, 2007)

rbyham said:


> A quick progress report. No video but here is apicture of current status. As you can see one side of the shaft is now exposed down to top of rudder tube. I am tryign to preserve shaft (obviously) and tube. My hope is to see the stuffing box loosen as I dround it in Kroils. Will try heat tomorrow as well. So far no movement. Have used large pipe wrench on it but will not budge. The rudder is lashed form below in case it suddenly frees up. Any other ideas??? Thanks.


Time, patience, heat, and penetrating oil are on your side.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

I think if you had been paying a yard to do this work by now you would be rapidly approaching the boat value tiping point. A good shop would focus on keeping it simple and keeping the cost to a minimum. They would recommend cutting the tube out of the boat, remove tube/rudder to workshop environment to salvage the rudder and installing a new fiberglass tube. Filament wound tubing is available off the shelf.

Not to offend, but you are tackling a problem that has been festering for over 40 years, and in the big picture this is a small repair, in a difficult location, by an owner with limited experience that must be thinking 'there has to be a better way'. You've given it a huge effort. Your love of sailing shouldn't be challenged by this project.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

From a lifetime around piping and pipe fitters I know this; It's almost always easier to split cast or malleable if a long slot is cut in the fitting.(omg, my dad used to split cast iron fittings with one shot from a sledge!) The hard part; is spreading that slot apart with a tool I've never seen.  Sort of a reverse leverage bolt cutter with super strong blades, like we see on sheet metal vise grip pliers. Cast fittings split.. malleable... "tear" if the slot cut is deep enough. .. scoring the rudder post is not the worse thing you can do. I'm sure a talented welder could fix that. 

Changing to a FG tube seems inevitable too.. Maybe it is time to cut the metal one out! Wonders can be worked with FG and epoxy that Joe average could never attempt without them. 

On my boat the tube is pretty high and the quadrant hub is right on the top of the FG tube. (should have a thrust bearing but it's easy to turn without one) The water line is well below the top of the tube also. There are glassed in plywood gussets holding the tube, but I don't think lateral movement is a big problem since the tube continues up to the transom deck. 

Cutting/drilling holes in our boats is a terrifying thing... in reality it's not all that terrible. Again, with epoxy and glass.. not much can't be fixed. The only real negative with epoxy, is sunlight damage..... 

jus sayin.....


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

As I let Dr. Kroil do his thing I am cleaning up fuel line replacement and electrical connection projects. Both are done so I am encouraged today. Currently replacing coolant hose that dumps into exhaust system just aft of the A4. Learning much about the boat and confident a way will be found with the rudder. As they say, the hardest part of any job is figuring out the easiest way. I am committed to not permanently disabling a vessel that daily I grow more appreciative of.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

rbyham said:


> As I let Dr. Kroil do his thing I am cleaning up fuel line replacement and electrical connection projects. Both are done so I am encouraged today. Currently replacing coolant hose that dumps into exhaust system just aft of the A4. Learning much about the boat and confident a way will be found with the rudder. As they say, the hardest part of any job is figuring out the easiest way. I am committed to not permanently disabling a vessel that daily I grow more appreciative of.


That's the spirit... don't give up... those that do have vessels rotting away on the hard or derelict in the slips... seen too many! :thewave:

Galling is when metal contacts metal and starts to scour/shred with no lubricity between them... if left long and continues to gall they almost will bond together from friction and no amount of force other than tearing these parts apart... let's hope that is not the case with the rudder/tube assembly... it would take a lot of heat to get the different metals to expand enough to let them slip and move... 

Good luck and hope you find a method to solve your situation. 

Nick


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

rbyham said:


> Can you elaborate on wrapping the split tube? I would be concerned about getting the tube back to orig strength. In the event splitting the tube becomes my only option I would like to know more.


Simply cutting pieces of glass fabric long enough to wrap around the tube, wetting them with epoxy and then wrapping the tube with it, piece by piece with the seams staggered.

Since your tube is metal and after reading Denise's post, I'm beginning to think cutting the whole mess out and replacing with a pre-made fiberglass tube might be the easiest way to go. That's if you simply cannot get it out without cutting something seriously.

I once made a stern tube by very thoroughly waxing the shaft and then wrapping pre-wetted glass cloth round & round until I got the thickness I wanted. Sliding it off the shaft took a bit of effort but it came off. I then put some valve lapping compound in it, slid it back on and rotated it until I had a very nice precise fit - just enough to prevent "hydro lock" or whatever the proper term is for the lockup you can get when water enters a too perfectly tight mating surface.

If you cut out your entire rudder setup and cut it apart on a bench, as suggested earlier, you could create your own, perfectly mated rudder tube the same way and then simply glass/epoxy it in place with some added gussets for strength.

That would be a fairly big job, and certainly nasty in such a confined space though, so I'd continue as is for now.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> Simply cutting pieces of glass fabric long enough to wrap around the tube, wetting them with epoxy and then wrapping the tube with it, piece by piece with the seams staggered.
> 
> Since your tube is metal and after reading Denise's post, I'm beginning to think cutting the whole mess out and replacing with a pre-made fiberglass tube might be the easiest way to go. That's if you simply cannot get it out without cutting something seriously.
> 
> ...


Or use an over-sized ready made fiberglass tube and insert a plain bearing at the bottom end.

You could even mold a bearing in place epoxy mixed with grapithe powder and colloidal silica.
Look at page 61-62 in this pdf http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/HowTo-Publications/Fiberglass-Boat-Repair-and-Maintenance.pdf
Would give a better bearing surface.

If the rudder stock has a bearing at the top end the only reason to have a long tube is to keep the water out.

Depending on the height above water line, You can probably replace the packing box with a gaiter.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

SloopJonB said:


> . . . If you cut out your entire rudder setup and cut it apart on a bench, as suggested earlier, you could create your own, perfectly mated rudder tube the same way and then simply glass/epoxy it in place with some added gussets for strength.


As much as the tube needs to be mated, it MUST have clearance, just as the drive shaft tube has clearance, it should not be glove tight, otherwise you will develop similar problems in the future.

A sawzall will make quick work of cutting out existing tube. It is simple surgery, and attaching the new tube, although in tight quarters, should be simple.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

rugosa said:


> As much as the tube needs to be mated, it MUST have clearance, just as the drive shaft tube has clearance, it should not be glove tight, otherwise you will develop similar problems in the future.


Rugs - that was why I included the comment about lapping. They are glove tight after laminating the waxed tube - too tight to put in the water or it would seize from the surface tension or whatever the physics are of that situation. If you lap them a bit it loosens up enough to prevent that but you get a full length bearing surface.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Wow lots of good input here. You all are making me think this one through. I am thinking to give it a few more days of Kroil, heat, and gentle muscle. If that does not work I am thinking split the tube, cut out the stuffing box, drop and clean up shaft, order the right box/bearing (probably from Edson) and put it all back together with some big hose clamps to hold tube and then glass over the whole thing. Thanks all.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Well some real progress today... sort of. The day started great. Got to the boat and began wiggling the rudder from below. Suddenly I noticed it was walking down out of the boat a bit. So some more wiggling eventually brought the whole rudder out of the boat. So that part is done. However, as I looked down in the hull at the now rudder tube, the box/bearing was still stuck on the top of the tube (see picture). And it is stuck fast. I suspect the aluminum box/bearing and SS shaft have galled big time. So what now? I heated it, Kroiled it, and wrenched it but no luck. I think I am at the point where the rudder tube needs to come out. So I worked on the 4 bolts holding the rube to the hull. They came apart easy enough but two of them the bolt spun with the nut. Looking outside (see picture) I noticed indication on outside of the hull of all four bolts. Anyway two came off form inside and two are spinning. I am wondering do I now knock those bolts out through the hull to release the tube? 

The tube from below appears to be SS with some sort of fiber inner bearing. That inner bearing appears to be either fiberglass or some sort of plastic. Should that all just come out so I can get back to bear hull with 4 bolt holes and one large rudder tube hole that will let me start all over with some other sort of fix? Anyone thinking this is becoming a job for a boatyard to do? My skills are somewhat limited (as is my money) and I do not want to do anything that could endanger later. So far I am fine with the level of skill required but this next step which could end up leaving holes in the hull feels like a different animal. Whatcha think??? Thanks all. See photos for better understanding.


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## Sea Dawg (Jun 26, 2012)

Step 1 for me would be mfr a template to where the current hole is so any cutting and replacement will put the rudder right back true to it's current location and angle. A piece of pipe mounted to a thin plywood form would allow you to mark the outline of the plywood form. This jig would allow you to test the new tube alignment. If you make the jig also have a removable sleeve/tube you'll be able to put it into the new tube to represent the rudder shaft when mounting the new tube.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I'd get rid of the metal tube and replace it with a glass tube thoroughly glassed and gusseted to the hull on the inside. If the quadrant height is far enough above the waterline you wouldn't even have to have a stuffing box - my Columbia 43 didn't - the quadrant bolted to the underside of the cockpit and the tube came right up to the bottom of the quadrant. There was a top bearing and emergency tiller attachment flush with the cockpit sole. A very simple installation. If the tube is kept as tight as possible without interference to the shaft, even in the worst possible conditions, only a very minor amount of water could squeeze its way into the boat. Essentially the entire tube becomes a bushing surface for the shaft instead of it being supported merely at the ends.

If you can find some manufactured glass tube with the right I/D to fit your shaft, buy a piece long enough and glass it in. If you can't find the right I/D, make your own, right on the shaft as I described earlier in this thread.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I think I'd be considering looking for an appropriate ID thick-walled fiberglass tube or pipe, remove the original altogether and fiberglass/epoxy the new tube in place with substantial gussets... something like this:










If you can't find the right tube diameter you could make your own as described by SloopJonB previously.. and do the same.

EDIT:... I see SJB and I are on the same page!!!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

It's imbedded for sure. I'd just dig it out start with new or home made tube that is longer the top of the post goes through the deck right? So lateral movement is not a big issue. 
Even as a fist time user you will do very well with epoxy and glass.. Some people use "kitty hair" which is glass strands in resin hardened with catalyst (not epoxy.) cutless bearing struts are embedded essentially the same way.

Here's a thread by someone that did the same thing your facing. 
http://www.myheap.com/1970-pearson-26/rudder-tube-and-bushings.html


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Faster said:


> I think I'd be considering looking for an appropriate ID thick-walled fiberglass tube or pipe, remove the original altogether and fiberglass/epoxy the new tube in place with substantial gussets... something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great pic Faster - that's EXACTLY what I meant. I got that gusset idea from New Orleans Marine - it was one of the details they did that other builders omitted - it adds a bunch of strength to a spade installation.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

SloopJonB said:


> Great pic Faster - that's EXACTLY what I meant. I got that gusset idea from New Orleans Marine - it was one of the details they did that other builders omitted - it adds a bunch of strength to a spade installation.


Thanks....... If I hadn't taken the time to find that shot I'd have beaten you to the punch!


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## pvanv1 (Nov 16, 2007)

A competent mechanic can extract the bushing... or just glass in a new tube... either way, you are on your way to completion of the odyssey.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

So by consensus it sounds like the old tube should come out. My guess is that means removing the four bolts that hold it to the hull which means loosening inside nuts and punching the bolts back out through the hull and patching afterwards. The tube itself is the stainless piece visible in the underneath photo. I suppose that will just somehow release from the hull. With it out I then have the options of (1) finding and fitting a new tube with gussets or (2) having the bearing removed mechanically and putting the tube back in complete with new box and packing.

To be honest, I really don't like the idea of losing the tube because it holds the bottom bearing nicely. Pulling the rudder tube will totally change where the shaft goes through the hull. Currently, everything coming through the bottom of the hull is purpose built for that shaft and still looks in very good condition. As it is if I slide the rudder shaft back up in through the quadrant and out the top, the top and bottom are held tightly by nylon bearings still in very good condition. If I could find a way to cut the old box flush with the top of the tube and create a water tight seal right there I would do that. Maybe sand the ID of the old box to clean it up real well boring it slightly in the process so the rudder turns easily and fit like a gaiter above it. Probably crazy thinking. I just wish there was a way to retain both original ends but do something with the top of the tube where the old (now beat up) box was. From what I can see, the old, now destroyed box was simply a water-tight seal, the top and bottom bearings created the firmness in the shaft. I am guessing that the top of the tube is right at water line. I mean I can see the wisdom of starting all over but the work involved sounds somewhat daunting. 

BTW, the white junk in my hand is what I pulled out of the tube once the shaft was removed. Any idea what this is? I am guessing the inside of the tube between the bottom bearing and the old box had about 3/8" of this on side walls all the way around. Could it be some old packing that had completely disintegrated? 

Thanks! You all really are helping. I need some sleep. The roller coaster of seeing the shaft slide out (yippee!) only to reveal yet another hill to climb (c'mon!) has left me tired today. But I do have time tomorrow to fight on... then Friday starts a 5 day cruise to the Bahamas. Anyone wanna come live in my house for five days and fix my boat while I am gone? 

BTW, I added what is a clearer picture of what the box/tube looks like now...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Can you get your trusty sawzall down the tube now and slit that garbage at the top without damaging the lower bushing? I'm thinking if you cut a couple of slots vertically down to the tube wall you may relieve some pressure and then be able to physically remove the two pieces.. at least you'll have some limited space for movement and it may release.

Another possibility, though, if you're ultimately unsuccessful in removing that last bit, would be to cut the existing tube below that seal, then sleeve and extend the existing tube to where you need it.

That said, I do think you're making a bit too much of the job of replacing the tube.. as far as DIY glasswork project I think that's a fairly simple, straightforward task, esp if you can find an appropriate section of pipe or tube for the job. It would be easy to slip a temporary stock up there to maintain the alignment as you install the tube. You'd also avoid any future issues with whatever seized things up in the first place. You could also incorporate a socket for a new lower bushing that might be more easily replaceable in the future..

At any rate you're many steps closer to a solution than when you started... best of luck!


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

rbyham said:


> BTW, the white junk in my hand is what I pulled out of the tube once the shaft was removed. Any idea what this is? I am guessing the inside of the tube between the bottom bearing and the old box had about 3/8" of this on side walls all the way around. Could it be some old packing that had completely disintegrated?


That mush looks like wet, thick aluminium oxide. I've never seen any type of packing that could end up looking like that. Is your rudder shaft aluminium by any chance?

I agree with Faster - I think you're making too much of what the job would be to glass in a new tube. Glass & epoxy work is quite simple albeit sticky & itchy. It is a skill you are almost certain to need during your boat ownership years. By the time you have done this you'll be fairly expert - it really is about that straightforward.

Trying to rebuild what you have looks like a LOT more work and expense to me and what you'd end up with wouldn't be as good - more complex, more expensive, not as strong and susceptible to the same failure down the road.

Your setup is unlike anything I've seen in a sailboat while what we describe is very standard practice and has been for decades.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

I would like to see what the rudder / rudder shaft looks like after taking it out.
Have any pictures to post


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Here is a shaft picture. 

Also, if I glass in a new tube how is the top sealed? Ending at the quadrant would have it open above the water line so can it be open or am I needing to plan for a new stuffing box as well? 

And with a new tube what actually holds the rudder up? The only thru-shaft would be the quadrant bolt. Originally there was a collar type piece with two allen headed screws one on each side that rode about the orig stuffing box and I assume functioned as a vertical hold on the shaft.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I think if the tube ends as high as you can get away with, the pressure on any seal there would be quite minimal - it shouldn't take too much .. Some kind of Oring might do.

As far as holding the rudder up I'd reinstall/create a pinned collar at deck level.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Well.. if it's not been said... CONGRATULATIONS ON GETTING IT FREE!


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

rbyham said:


> Here is a shaft picture.
> 
> Also, if I glass in a new tube how is the top sealed? Ending at the quadrant would have it open above the water line so can it be open or am I needing to plan for a new stuffing box as well?
> 
> And with a new tube what actually holds the rudder up? The only thru-shaft would be the quadrant bolt. Originally there was a collar type piece with two allen headed screws one on each side that rode about the orig stuffing box and I assume functioned as a vertical hold on the shaft.


If the shaft goes high enough above the waterline you don't really need to worry about a seal. My Col 43 didn't have one and there was no evidence that water had ever intruded. The quadrant bolt and the tillerhead fitting will hang it securely. Put a ring of UHMWP or Delrin on top of the tube as a thrust surface for the quadrant and just let the rudder hang.

P.S. that pic appears to confirm my suspicion that the white mush is aluminium oxide. Is the rudder shaft aluminium?


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

I have not determined the make-up of the rudder but my best guess at present is it is aluminum. So I think the guess at aluminum oxide is probably a good one. But I was surprised at how gooped up it was in there. I would say a full 4" of the tube all the way around at 3/8" deep was that junk.

In terms of height above water line, my measurements show a max of about 4" above water line for new tube. Any higher and I am running into the quadrant. My concerns are things like heeling and how that might impact.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

deniseO30 said:


> Well.. if it's not been said... CONGRATULATIONS ON GETTING IT FREE!


Thanks Denise. Yes that felt great!


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

rbyham said:


> I have not determined the make-up of the rudder but my best guess at present is it is aluminum. So I think the guess at aluminum oxide is probably a good one. But I was surprised at how gooped up it was in there. I would say a full 4" of the tube all the way around at 3/8" deep was that junk.


You must check the lower bearing surface of the shaft, if it is uneven you must find a fix - one option is to add a sleeve, read more here: Jefa stainless steel and aluminium sleeves



rbyham said:


> In terms of height above water line, my measurements show a max of about 4" above water line for new tube. Any higher and I am running into the quadrant. My concerns are things like heeling and how that might impact.


I suggest you read this about sealing Sealing systems


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

rbyham said:


> Here is a shaft picture.


Only part of it  would like to see the whole length.



rbyham said:


> Also, if I glass in a new tube how is the top sealed? Ending at the quadrant would have it open above the water line so can it be open or am I needing to plan for a new stuffing box as well?


Posted this before Sealing systems



rbyham said:


> And with a new tube what actually holds the rudder up? The only thru-shaft would be the quadrant bolt. Originally there was a collar type piece with two allen headed screws one on each side that rode about the orig stuffing box and I assume functioned as a vertical hold on the shaft.


Time to look at the whole system with new eyes - looking for improvements that can be incorporated into the existing stuff.

From the pictures in one of your early posts it looks like you have a top bearing?
It seems a little bit strange there are no trust bearing there...
Maybe you could modify it so you get a system to keep the rudder up, such a bearing only need to hold the weight of the rudder - the rudder is even lighter with the boat on the water,

Using the rudder quadrant, (made in aluminium?) riding on the brass in the stuffing box sitting on top of a SS tube seems to be a recipe for corrosion.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

rbyham said:


> I have not determined the make-up of the rudder but my best guess at present is it is aluminum. So I think the guess at aluminum oxide is probably a good one. But I was surprised at how gooped up it was in there. I would say a full 4" of the tube all the way around at 3/8" deep was that junk.
> 
> In terms of height above water line, my measurements show a max of about 4" above water line for new tube. Any higher and I am running into the quadrant. My concerns are things like heeling and how that might impact.


It's amazing how much aluminium oxide expands - it's damn near like pour in place foam. 

Your rudder tube is WAY too short to use my advice - my Col. 43 was 4 FEET above the W/L. You'll definitely have to have a stuffing box or seal of some sort.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

my Oday has a tube that is well above the water line and no bearings, just the tube is greased full length. .

some where out there the are nylon stuffing boxes.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Hmmm check this! (no affiliation ) Tides Marine


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

deniseO30 said:


> Hmmm check this! (no affiliation ) Tides Marine


Yes!!

Have a look at the "Upper Rudder Bearings - *" and "Rudder Collars", read the pdf's (It says motorboats on the Rudder Collars - but this should work equally fine on a sailboat).

They also have other rudder system components.

You should make a complete inventory of the parts in your steering system, dimensions and state, start planning from there.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Denise... I have checked the link and written to them. Their rudder seal looks like it would be both safe/strong and do-able. Thanks for the link! If I can preserve my original rudder tube and get hose connection going between the rudder tube (they refer to it as a port) and their seal it would seem to work quite well.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

The attached pic taken from their PDF looks just like my setup. My only question is rudder shaft OD. I am 1 7/8" and their closest listed size is 1 3/4". We shall see what they say.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

rbyham said:


> The attached pic taken from their PDF looks just like my setup. My only question is rudder shaft OD. I am 1 7/8" and their closest listed size is 1 3/4". We shall see what they say.


Probably easier to increase the shaft OD than reducing.
If you can find or get made a sleeve with the correct OD you can fix it to the shaft with epoxy.

The procedure is explained here Converting from plain bearings to roller bearings


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

knuterikt said:


> Probably easier to increase the shaft OD than reducing.
> If you can find or get made a sleeve with the correct OD you can fix it to the shaft with epoxy.


True.... however that would make any subsequent attempt at removal more of a challenge.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

Faster said:


> True.... however that would make any subsequent attempt at removal more of a challenge.


Why, If I understand this correct we are looking at replacing the rudder tube.

As long as the sleeved rudder shaft fits in the bearings and the tube ID is larger the the sleeved OD I cant see any problem.

Would do the sleeving with the rudder off the boat, before putting it all together.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

OK... I was envisioning adding a short sleeve after the fact just for the seal.... bushing up the whole shaft means bigger bushings top and bottom... tough to do if he wants to save the old tube....


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

Faster said:


> OK... I was envisioning adding a short sleeve after the fact just for the seal.... bushing up the whole shaft means bigger bushings top and bottom... tough to do if he wants to save the old tube....


It was a replay to this post


rbyham said:


> The attached pic taken from their PDF looks just like my setup. My only question is rudder shaft OD. I am 1 7/8" and their closest listed size is 1 3/4". We shall see what they say.


Don't think it is possible to squeeze a 1 7/8" shaft into a 1 3/4 bearing.
If he will use these bearings reducing the shaft by 1/8" is not easy (or smart)
Sleeving one size up seems a better option - would also give smooth surface.
If the purpose of the sleeving only is to smooth en the surface - the sleeve can be made thin (wall thickness of 3mm)

I have not seen the whole shaft, often he upper part has smaller OD than the lover part.

Only need sleeving the part where the bearings go.

Epoxying a new tube have already been discussed.


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## Sea Dawg (Jun 26, 2012)

Congrats, you're on the right track and near solution! Be sure the paste you showed in your hand wasn't white lead. That used to be an industrial lubricant/gasket sealant for marine service. Not so popular any more. As for sealing the rudder. Whether it's above waterline or not leaving it open to atmosphere would seem to invite seawater to come and go more freely while underway due to the motion of sailing.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

I am back form the cruise which I will say turned out much better than those poor folks being towed in the Gulf. :-( Hope they make it OK. Actually I was with carnival as well and we did have an episode. At one point something happened to the stablizer system and we heeled that monster way over first to starboard then to port. It was in slow motion so you did not know how far it was going to go. But I was on a lounger between two hot tubs and the heel was so extreme that both tubs were emptied and people all over the boat hanging on for dear life. It was truly scary.

Anyway... I am working with the guys at Tide Marine to see if we can figure out how to make one of their RPB Type I seals work. I got on the boat today and was able to take more accurate measurements. I do have approximately 8 ¾” between quadrant and top of rudder tube so I should be fine. I borrowed some calipers and got a 1.92” measurement on the rudder shaft OD. The same calipers gave me a 2.92” OD on rudder tube. I was surprised I did not get a more rounded fraction on the measurement something like 1.75” or 2.0” on shaft and 3.0” on the tube. Was it because I was using a digital caliper? What do you think? Does measurement by caliber produce slightly different results? Anyway I sent the digital results over to the TM guys to see what they think. But if their seal works it will be a fairly easy clean up of shaft and then slide everything together. 

Had some other good boat news today as well. It rained here the whole time we were cruising. So the bilge had about 5 inches of water in it. I now have a battery on board but have not tested much of the electronics yet. I was about to use manual bilge pump to remove water but instead hit the switches for the auto bilge bump and the thing threw all that water out in about 20 seconds. This led me to test cabin lights as well as sound system and all worked. Not bad for a 1966 boat that has sat on the hard for 5 years.


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## pvanv1 (Nov 16, 2007)

OK, so your shaft diameter is a Nominal 1-15/16, based on those calipers. Personally, I prefer real micrometers for measuring shafting. Still, not a big deal. the important thing is to get the appropriate dimensions for the bearing surface. Don't forget that there are other standards of measurement, including millimeters...

Drill a hole in the side of the keel sump, as close to the bottom as reasonable, as far aft as reasonable, and install a bronze garboard drain. Leave that open when on the hard. You won't need to pump during the off season. Mine is installed "backwards", so I can insert the plug from inside the bilge... without diving, should we accidentally launch with the plug out.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Thanks Paul... for now I shall ponder intentionally drilling a hole in the bottom of my new to me boat. My skills are developing but I am not sure I am ready for that just yet. But the function of such a drain makes perfect sense. We shall see.

In the meantime the search goes on for the right shaft seal. I was looking at the Tides Marine seal but my local boatyard warned me off of Tides and steered me in the direction of these: 02-200-300 | PSS Shaft Seal Looks like an easy install. I plan to shorten the length of my rudder tube by 1/2" using my trusty sawzall  clean and prep the shaft and then slide it all together compressing the seal accordingly.

I spent a couple hours today figuring out rigging. In storage the mast has simply laid lengthwise on the deck in a sort of jumbled mess. But taking my time I think I can see where everything goes. Worked on nav lights today and just need a bulb for green starboard light and all will be working. I also tested an electronic wind direction/speed indicator that came with the boat. It worked fine too. So it seems the PO stored things well which does not surprise me. I also popped in to local boat yard to discuss launch and mast step process and price. Looks like about $450 for everything including a power wash and atomic 4 test run on the hard with their water. I want to make sure she is running no problem as my slip will be about a mile away from launch and the engine my only power and river current running about 3 knots. Guess I better make sure anchor is working that day as well.  Thanks for all the help all. I think we are getting close.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

On inspection of the mast I noticed the spreader joints wrapped in some sort of white tape over top of what might be rubber boots. The tape shows wear and cracking and the rubber boots on the center connection appear torn underneath. What are these and should these be replaced before launch? My plan is to launch and do basic centering/rake of mast but to allow 4-5 days before tuning rigging. It is my understanding that having been on the hard for so long it will take the boat a few days to return to natural shape. See photos for details on spreader question.


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## pvanv1 (Nov 16, 2007)

Spreader boots are de rigeur for many. They only last a few years before the UV splits them. Likewise, a whole roll of 3M tape is not unusual. Personally, I have shroud rollers, so do not need boots or tape. Personal choice. Should not be any boots at the spreader roots, though any pins might well need to be taped. Just rig it and sail it. Have a rigger check the wire, or just replace it. After everything starts to settle in, then you can tune the rig. The cradle may or may not have allowed the hull to relax. All depends. I typically overtighten the rig a little when stepping in the spring, then tune a week later.


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## pvanv1 (Nov 16, 2007)

rbyham said:


> Thanks Paul... for now I shall ponder intentionally drilling a hole in the bottom of my new to me boat. My skills are developing but I am not sure I am ready for that just yet. But the function of such a drain makes perfect sense. We shall see.
> 
> In the meantime the search goes on for the right shaft seal. I was looking at the Tides Marine seal but my local boatyard warned me off of Tides and steered me in the direction of these: 02-200-300 | PSS Shaft Seal Looks like an easy install. I plan to shorten the length of my rudder tube by 1/2" using my trusty sawzall  clean and prep the shaft and then slide it all together compressing the seal accordingly.


The PSS unit in question has a side tube for cooling water, and is intended for a prop shaft. Different animal.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Standard stuffing box anyone?

PACKING BOX ASSEMBLY BRZ 2" SHAFT 3" HOSE *NS* 103460

Bet you could find a used one for much less.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

rbyham said:


> On inspection of the mast I noticed the spreader joints wrapped in some sort of white tape over top of what might be rubber boots. The tape shows wear and cracking and the rubber boots on the center connection appear torn underneath. What are these and should these be replaced before launch? My plan is to launch and do basic centering/rake of mast but to allow 4-5 days before tuning rigging. It is my understanding that having been on the hard for so long it will take the boat a few days to return to natural shape. See photos for details on spreader question.


Peel all that crap off and hope there's only dirt and not corrosion underneath. Those spreader boots should never be taped up at the bottom or they can't drain and crap collects inside. Great balls of rigging tape is a poor idea as well - some sort of attempt to create a baggywrinkle effect I guess.

If the boots are reusable you will see moulded in "troughs" which is where they are supposed to be wrapped with tape to retain them - a couple of turns, not a whole roll of tape on each boot!

P.S. - their purpose is chafe protection.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

The saga continues. Well I guess many here have been right in advising me to remove the original rudder tube and start from scratch. A brother in the marina business called today and advised I take the original tube out. His reasoning was that after hammering, heating, and otherwise abusing the rudder tube that it was not longer well bedded and would likely leak even after installing a new seal. So I went at the rudder tube today and it actually came out quite easily, a clear indicator that it would have leaked if left in.

So I am now at a point where the whole rudder tube assembly will be rebuilt from hull up. Here is my question. I stopped on way home tonight at a local marine supply and they suggested the Buck Algonquin catalog which I checked upon getting home. It looks like they have what I need. This would seem to be it: Item # 00rp200a, Bronze Rudder Ports - Outside Mount - Square Flange on Buck Algonquin

The only question I have relates to the BA port being an outside mount but my original was inside. I would need to use the matching backing plates on the outside of the hull and possibly drill new holes for 1/2" stainless thru bolts but I would think setting this all in a good bed of Boat Life should work. What is the prevailing opinion here?

Lastly is anyone else surprised to see my hull thickness at about 3/8"? I had been told that these 60's era boats would have an inch or more of glass in the hull.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Hull gets thick down lower in the boat or should be. Don't fret.. How high is the water line in reference to the quadrant?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

how's bout this with you building a glass tube and epoxy in place. I think I've see that set up in a hunter 33. not sure. 
Item # 00pb200, Bronze Packing Boxes - Self Aligning - Spud Type - Right Hand Thread on Buck Algonquin


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Make it easy on yourself and simply glass & epoxy in a fiberglass tube and then get one of those bellows type seals you talked about earlier. It'll be cheaper and easier and more secure and more leakproof and more conventional practice etc. etc.

That external mount fitting looks like it's intended for fishboats or something. I wouldn't want my rudder tube depending on caulking to keep the sea out - way too much repetitive lateral force on it.

As to your hull thickness - you have now officially learned the facts of old fiberglass boats.  The "inch thick" small boats of that era are fish stories and old wives tales. They DID know what they were doing back then and all the stories about them using wooden boat scantlings and so forth because "they didn't know the material" are all a bunch of hooey. The hull of my 1970 Columbia 43 was two 1/4" skins of glass with 1/2" balsa between. It was 2" thick in the very bottom where the keel attached but not elsewhere.

If you don't believe me, read "Heart of Glass" by Daniel Spurr.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

rbyham said:


> The saga continues.......


The linked tubes you posted include a stuffing box seal, so that works as long as your 'slightly under' 2" shaft won't have excessive clearance, and that the seal will contact/seal as designed ( I expect the seal will work OK)

By the look of them, too, no reason why you couldn't mount it 'inside' just like your old one was.. they look like essentially the same setup.

Building your own tube and going with Denise's hose coupling stuffing box units may/may not work out less expensive, you'll have to do some checking on prices. Is the 5" height right for you for getting above the waterline and leaving room for the quadrant?


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## On The Road Again (Feb 16, 2013)

Any further idea's on repairing a frozen Rudder post, I have the exact same problem and the DW40 trick does not seem to be working after a weeks soaking. It's a stainless steel shaft and does move under pressure, however I am unable to see how I can remove the rudder and shaft ??? any further idea's
Thanks,
"On The Road Again


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

OTR... I am far from an expert but my recent experience left me thinking that Kroils is the best way to go for penetrating oil. General opinion among folks here is not real high on WD40. Kroils only available online and it ain't cheap. But it did break my seriously frozen rudder up. That and I used sandwiched 8' 2x4s sandwiched on each side of the rudder to give me leverage in manipulating it.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Before (or while) waiting for a mail order of Kroil, try a 50/50 mix of ATF & acetone.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Hows about this? I clean up the original tube/port and rebed it in Boat Life, lock it down mechanically with the 4 ss 1/2" bolts and then glass it in from inside. Then I could add any number of spud type seals to the top of the rudder tube to create the seal. The original tube/port would clean up fine and that original bronze bearing is as good as new.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

rbyham said:


> Hows about this? ......


Will the remaining seal material/whatever that is still stuck in the top be cleanly removed?


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Yes I would use a multi saw for a clean perpendicular cut just below where all that old stuffing box remnant it. I that would leave me with a clean new SS rudder tube but about 3/4" shorter. It is a very solid unit and everything would fit right back into the hull. With fresh bedding and glassing from inside it should be even stronger than glassing in a fiberglass tube . I would have to glass first and then drill new holes up through so bolts go in last.


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## pvanv1 (Nov 16, 2007)

Rick... There's nothing wrong with your old tube, aside from the damage done by extracting the old seal. Yes, it was wise to extract the tube and inspect the connection/seal at the hull. I would re-fit the top seal (use whatever you prefer for that), re-bed it in 3M 5200 (very permanent!) or Life Calk (polysulfide), and be done with it. No glass needed -- none was needed for over 45 years, so why re-invent the wheel? KISS.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

I tend to agree with you Paul. I think cleaning all surfaces and re bedding would do the trick. Glassing would probably be overkill. I am thinking a stuffing box like Denise shows above to fit to top of tube. Would be a fairly easy refit. Someone asked about a backing plate on outside of hull to create sandwich of hull but there was nothing of that sort originally. Just the four bolts up through the hull with washers and nuts inside.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

After a week on the road and all day rain yesterday I finally got a few hours in on the boat today. The stuffing box is in and fits well to rudder tube. I got the old stuffing box cut off the tube today as well. Then I prepped the hull inside for bedding tomorrow. The rudder shaft had a few nicks and corrosion spots but all sanded down well. So tomorrow we will bed the tube and then give it a few days to cure before putting the rudder back in. I one step at a time.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Well some good progress today. See pics. Got the refit rudder tube bedded in Life Calk today. Was cool and windy but my faithful wife assistant hung in there while we got it all gooped up and tightened down. I plan to give it until Saturday to cure and hopefully reinsert rudder hardware. The job today went well though there was some minor panic as we had to work hard to get all four bolts to line up well. Probably used too much calk.  See pics.


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## pvanv1 (Nov 16, 2007)

Looking good !


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

Nice looking job! Your progress has been really impressive, rbyham. It's been interesting to watch you go from "let the pros have at it" to becoming a bit of an expert on this situation yourself. Well done!


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Thanks for the encouragements folks. I feel good about where we are with launch plan. Ultimately splash will tell the tale.  

But honestly I doubt I would have tried this repair apart from guidance and encouragement found on this forum. The HR28 is much less a mystery to me today. 

I know you all have heard it before but a noobie is very appreciative and excited to meet more of the Charleston sailing community once I get into a slip. That and I cannot wait to get 8 years of storage grime off the boat and see what she can really look like. 

Our Colorado daughter is bringing a young man this week to meet us. I plan at this point to spend Saturday with him and my local son putting the rudder back in. Will be a good chance to hang out with our son who is very excited about the boat and get to know the new guy as he really is.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Well the stuffing box/rudder replacement job is done! Yep. I had two good helpers Saturday and with them pushing from below and me inside inserting box and quadrant on we got her all up in and buttoned down. Looks real nice. Took about 3 hours. I used 3/8" graphite rope. Testing the steering she goes lock to lock real smooth. BUT sad to say no pics yet. Hopefully this afternoon I will get back over for a final pic. Thanks for all the help here. Assuming it will be dry on launch this has been a good experience for me. I know the boat very well at this point which is a huge bonus.

NOW... this has me wondering about the box on the prop shaft. Stuffing there is vintage 2002 with boat on the hard since 2005. Should I open that box up and replace that rope? I have started the engine and run for up to 10 minutes. Feeling the shaft and box at t hat point they were mildly warm but no where near hot. And that on the hard with no water to cool. What do you think?

Again much thanks for all the guidance along the way. Man boatyards must hate you all!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I'd do the the shaft stuffing to. Or in my case I went for the PSS seal when we did the cutless bearing.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

rbyham said:


> this has been a good experience for me. I know the boat very well at this point which is a huge bonus.


That's what DIY is all about (as well as saving a few boat bucks).

As to doing your shaft stuffing, probably a good idea but be careful of the dreaded "as long as we're here we might as well...." or you'll never get launched.


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

Congratulations on your great progress. I hate to be a wet blanket but want to alert you to a concern about the potential for galvanic corrosion arising from your use of graphite packing in the stuffing box.

To avoid galvanic corrosion contact between dissimilar metals should be avoided. Further,the greater the difference between metals on the galvanic corrosion scale the greater the potential for corrosion. Graphite and alunimum are far apart. If your rudder shaft is aluminum and you use graphite packing you will likely experince coorosion of the rudder shaft. 
Galvanic Corrosion, theory documents Galvanic Bimetallic Corrosion

Flax packing is a better choice in this situation.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Hudsonian said:


> Congratulations on your great progress. I hate to be a wet blanket but want to alert you to a concern about the potential for galvanic corrosion arising from your use of graphite packing in the stuffing box.
> 
> To avoid galvanic corrosion contact between dissimilar metals should be avoided. Further,the greater the difference between metals on the galvanic corrosion scale the greater the potential for corrosion. Graphite and alunimum are far apart. If your rudder shaft is aluminum and you use graphite packing you will likely experince coorosion of the rudder shaft.
> Galvanic Corrosion, theory documents Galvanic Bimetallic Corrosion
> ...


Shaft coupling is or should be grounded through engine ground.


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## pvanv1 (Nov 16, 2007)

Your option on the prop shaft packing. New wouldn't hurt...


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Thanks for the alert on galvanic corrosion. The shaft was actually determined to be stainless. Is grounding still advised in that case? If so how does one do that? No worries about wet blanket. This is a learn as I go and I want to get things right.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Another question. If I decide to change stuffing in prop shaft box is that a right or left handed box nut and how do I tell for sure?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

rbyham said:


> Another question. If I decide to change stuffing in prop shaft box is that a right or left handed box nut and how do I tell for sure?


It will be a standard thread, I expect.. the lock nut should resist the tendency of the shaft to 'turn' the gland off if that's the rotation direction.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

I called the manufacturer today on the GTU packing. They told me no problems on the stainless rudder shaft. I am thinking about leaving it and checking on it occasionally.


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

Graphite and SS are fairly close on the galvanic corrosion scale, therefore, the potential for corrosion is less than with graphite and aluminum, which are very far apart on the scale. Further, the relatively large size of the rudder shaft helps protect it from the graphite.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Thanks Hudson... I almost pulled it all out today. Instead i called West Pacific trading who sells the stuff. Jack called me back with lots of technical info on the graphite rope. According to Jack the GTU/GFO is fast carving out a large share of the market in terms of stuffing. The US Navy uses it as do most commercial vessels. He has sold a lot of this stuff in the past 6 years and never had a comeback or report of problem. I described my application in detail and agreed to leave it in. He did ask me to get back to him if there was any problem because he does track this stuff. One technical piece of info he gave me was that when tested end to end it does not conduct an electrical charge. It has something to do with the types and way the fibers are braided. He lost me there but it sounded good that a multimeter would not reveal connectivity. Anyway for now I am going to leave it in and monitor for the first year anyway. It can quite easily come back out if needed.

Also see attached pic of finished job. Whatcha think?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

rbyham said:


> T
> 
> Also see attached pic of finished job. Whatcha think?


Looks good... this has been an interesting process to observe.. well done.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Nice! even shiny clean! woot woot!congrats! Oh.. don't forget the cockpit drain seacock is OPEN without hose on it.. could be ... disastrous!

R? is that transom wood?


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## SVTatia (May 7, 2007)

Congratulations Rbyham and all who helped.

This site truly amazes me, and you don’t see this scenario everywhere: a bunch of folks unknown to each other who takes a fellow sailor by the hand and guide the apparent difficult work right thru the end of job.
I mean, Rbyham was ready to raise his hands and surrender to the yard monkeys!
Looking back, I wonder how much $ was saved, and better yet, I bet the end result was superior! And the satisfaction – priceless.

Way to go, you guys rock!


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## Davenire (May 14, 2012)

Looks better than new. Excellent


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

rbyham said:


> Thanks Hudson... I almost pulled it all out today. Instead i called West Pacific trading who sells the stuff. Jack called me back with lots of technical info on the graphite rope. According to Jack the GTU/GFO is fast carving out a large share of the market in terms of stuffing. The US Navy uses it as do most commercial vessels. He has sold a lot of this stuff in the past 6 years and never had a comeback or report of problem. I described my application in detail and agreed to leave it in. He did ask me to get back to him if there was any problem because he does track this stuff. One technical piece of info he gave me was that when tested end to end it does not conduct an electrical charge. It has something to do with the types and way the fibers are braided. He lost me there but it sounded good that a multimeter would not reveal connectivity. Anyway for now I am going to leave it in and monitor for the first year anyway. It can quite easily come back out if needed.
> 
> Also see attached pic of finished job. Whatcha think?


Very sanitary job and good for decades of trouble free steering - great job. How much did you save over having it done for you?


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

SJ... I have no experience with boatyards on a job like this but I doubt I would get away for less than2k.my costs were about 400 of which 300 was stuffing box which I almost got free from marina owning brother if bronze pricing had not been so high  I hear Charleston is expensive. Pricing to step mast and splash it is running about 475. Ouch!


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

You did an excellent job. I'm using the GTO packing on my propeller shaft stuffing box, with an SS shaft. I have no worries about corrosion.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

deniseO30 said:


> Nice! even shiny clean! woot woot!congrats! Oh.. don't forget the cockpit drain seacock is OPEN without hose on it.. could be ... disastrous!
> 
> R? is that transom wood?


Sorry I missed your last question. Yes it doth appear to be wood. Glassed in around sides with what I guess are called tabs? is this significant?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Oh.. is it wood outside too? I have visions of a bright finished (varnished) transom on your boat now!


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Oops I misunderstood. That is wood but it is a bulkhead not the transom. Behind it sits a large lazarette and then the fiberglass transom.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

rbyham said:


> Oops I misunderstood. That is wood but it is a bulkhead not the transom. Behind it sits a large lazarette and then the fiberglass transom.


Well, there's your next project... laminating a beautiful wood veneer to your transom so you can bright finish it for Denise!!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Uh... no! lol Make one for my boat! uh.. no, on that too LOL


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

Here is a pic of what she looked like back in about 2003 when still under care of PO. Hopefully I can bring her back to this look. First everything structural to get in water then cleaning sprucing, etc. once in slip with elec and water. My plan is to sail her for a year and then haul for full painting which I plan to do myself back in storage yard. I figure it better to learn to sail and especially dock her with old rather than new paint job.


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

That little bimini came with the boat to me. Not sure what to do with it. I would prefer but not sure I can afford a dodger. Plus I will need something overhead of driving seat. My dermatology appointments are too frequent as is...


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## Mervs1 (Mar 4, 2013)

Hi There
If you plan to replace the lower bearing you might consider DELRIN.
It is a very good bearing material. Should eliminate any binding or corrosion between different materials. Find a machine shop to make one up for you.


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