# how to convert the naive and the unwilling?



## northernsquirrel

Well, Mesdames and Messeigneurs, I have a small situation. Three children, 15, 19, and 22. My oldest gets it, we have taken lessons together, racing 4:20's (heh) Lasers, etc. Keelboats together. My Admiral and I are both ex military. At one point in time she outshot me, at which point I knew she was the one. 

Mamma bear is quite protective of the cubs. so we went on an escorted sea kayak afternoon excursion. I've used solo kayaks, so the daughter small was with me. the guide didn't see fit to use ballast. So the wind piped up and my bow was effectively out of the water. Then the wind would catch it, and weee we're in a turn. The Admiral and no 2 son were not able to make progress into the waves. They had to be towed. once the nose on my kayak was stabilized with a painter from another Kayak, then we were gold. Momma is now not really that in love with the water. Of course, because this was a guided trip, the fact it went wrong became my fault. Of course. Now, if there is small probability of her getting her face wet, or being splashed, then fear taketh over. Fear in extremis. Which then causes displays of quite intense behaviour. eek! 

We are chartering a monohull in the BVI for a week. I won't be heeling the boat, I will be driving for ultimate comfort. BVI's, breakfast in bed, flowers, champagne,etc. I need her to get past initial fear and feel comfortable. Now old squirrel boy (me) can sometimes get immersed into adrenaline activities at the slightest provocation. But I'm hopeful to enlist the children three to help me keep it at an intensity level that is more appropriate for a lady of flag rank. 

ANY suggestions to help keep the admiral happy during this week long trip would be greatly appreciated. Yes, there will be shopping at the end in St. Thomas. Magpies do enjoy their bling. Sigh, at least I can drink in the stores "for free". Again, any thoughts on how to chill out the missus would be GREATLY appreciated. Cause if I don't do this one right, then a substantial amount of time over the next couple of years will be spent solo...


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## Tanski

Forget it! I'm single because it was a choice between the non sailing ex and my boat!
From experience it sucks having somebody onboard who doesn't want to be there, once they have made up their mind good luck changing it.
You simply cannot force somebody to like what you do, people are either sailors or not.


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## Bleemus

Alcohol


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## Donna_F

If she truly hates the water, the fact that she's even going on a charter means she has compromised for you. Now...your turn. Keep it flat if that's what makes her feel safer and let her creep to the edge more on her own. Maybe seeing others heeled over and not capsizing will help her comfort level. Because in the BVI she WILL see that.

Don't force her.

Sounds like you may not have your wife with you but if your oldest loves it as much as you do, you certainly aren't solo. The two of you sailing together and returning safe and sound after each trip may help, too.

There was a woman in my sail club who got a panic attack before each trip and mostly canceled, leaving her husband at loose ends. I pointed her towards some of the sailing women FaceBook groups and that seemed to help a LOT. She goes on all sails now.


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## FSMike

Mistake # 1 - kayaks in a breeze. You could have cancelled.

Mistake # 2 - a monohull instead of a catamaran. If it's not too late to change you might want to do so (if it's in the budget).


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## MarkofSeaLife

Tanski said:


> Forget it! I'm single because it was a choice between the non sailing ex and my boat!
> From experience it sucks having somebody onboard who doesn't want to be there, once they have made up their mind good luck changing it.
> You simply cannot force somebody to like what you do, people are either sailors or not.


I was going to write the same thing.

People don't change. 
You can't change someone.
Unless you separate. Move out and in a few weeks say you will move back in if she goes sailing and enjoys it. But you need to be prepared never to go back, or never to be asked back.

Most people prefer the comfort, stability and safety of home.


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## mstern

My first thought was "catamaran" too. They sail FLAT. No heeling. Lots of room.


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## FloridaBoy

Hello, Being married for a long time and well trained/learned I think, as was said before, let her do what she wants, read, sunbathe , whatever. Don't make her feel uncomfortable about NOT doing something with you. If you can make a shopping trip available, that would be very cool. I used to go scuba in the Keys with another couple and my bud's wife would sit on the boat and read for 6 hrs while we dove, no sweat. She didn't mind, she was there and happy. It's nice that your wife may have decided to go to humor you, that's cool. Feed her well and keep her happy, you can do it. I think you're gonna have a great time. Kevin


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## Faster

One thing may be in your favour... maybe. Wind, wave and heeling, for some, is far more frightening on a grey, stormy day than in bright sunshine and warmth (in fact the reduced air density does soften things up a bit). So if you pick your course, choose/reef the sails, and, as I believe is possible in the BVIs, keep the legs short with plenty of time for swimming and shore stuff it might go OK.

Don't ridicule and don't 'push'.. you can turn chronic heelophobia into a terminal condition. And yes, if you can afford a catamaran (maybe team up with some friends? The Cats can usually easily accommodate 2-4 couples to share the costs)


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## northernsquirrel

thanks to everybody. DR, totally agree. We will be taking it very very easy and I'm cautiously optimistic that the your activity/my activity thing will work for us. Thanks as well, Florida. In fact, initially it was just going to be the two of us. I met with a lot of pushback on that notion. As this is not my first rodeo, decided to bring along the kidlets as insurance in case old squirrel goes overboard. Then the tone changed a lot. Also bringing tether and harness to keep me on the boat. OF course, PFD's all around. And yes, I've had all the courses needed, and sail with friends up here quite a lot. 

Mike, I agree. First, the wind came up quite quickly in Alaska, but I didn't have my phone or access to wx. Besides, somebody else is doing it, a "pro" so what can go wrong. You go into vacation mode, turn off the brain. Somebody else is running the show. I never do that skiing in the mountains or hiking, camping etc. I have learned, it won't happen again, even in the BVI's. there will be a daily wx brief. 

And finally, I do have to agree with the very accurate observation about "you can't change people". Having said that, it's 29 years and a lot of water under the bridge. Besides, she outshot me on the FN, which is not a lady's rifle. The catamarans were quite a jump in price, but if one's available, we may just do that. My first plan was two reefs and eased sheets in 5 kt winds. If I have to motorsail, I will do it. So I have to try just a little bit (understatement). Failing that, a retirement house on tropical land and one hell of a single handed daysailer boat.


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## Dancin' Bare

I kept the dog and the boat. Haven't had time to miss her :~)


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## Tanski

Dancin' Bare said:


> I kept the dog and the boat. Haven't had time to miss her :~)


 2 dogs and MY boat.
FN! I'm impressed, fired one of those. A buddy of mine here in Canada has one, lol bayonet and everthing.
Came from the Singapore Police Dept!


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## miatapaul

Well it really depends on if she is just not sure about it, or already has her mind set. Also for some it is the water that is the cause of the fear. If she is truly scared of water then you may be in trouble. If she is OK around water, and say a strong swimmer just not sure about the sailboat portion then you my be alright.


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## MarkofSeaLife

5 knots wind? In the BVIs? You won't even get that gentle wind in a subteranian bomb shelter.

FN is great old one. But see if you can get a go on a FNFAL (The fully auto version). Seriously cool.


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## danvon

Totally agree with your plan to reef. And inflatable PFDs are a lot more comfortable & increase the chance they'll be worn. I've found that good planning so you are not ought later than intended helps (nothing makes people more nervous than getting caught out in rough weather after dark). Your wife might also be happier if she does some of the driving.


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## sailingfool

If you are not throughly experienced with the size and type of boat and the likely sailing conditions and are committed to a positive result I suggest you consider chartering a boat with a captain. No offense intended, you can decide whether this advice is useful.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Did anyone mention alcohol?

We have a rule in entertainment: get the audience drunk before you get on stage.  I've got great reviews that way


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## Tanski

MarkofSeaLife said:


> 5 knots wind? In the BVIs? You won't even get that gentle wind in a subteranian bomb shelter.
> 
> FN is great old one. But see if you can get a go on a FNFAL (The fully auto version). Seriously cool.


We will not speak of that! People are not supposed to have fully auto weapons in Canada.:gunner


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## Bleemus

If you are inexperienced then don't take your wife sailing. Your incompetence will lead to mistakes and generate fear in your spouse. Go for a week long schooner cruise in Maine. Big boats that don't heel much. I suggest the Timberwind. Great boat and great crew. Stick to crewed trips till she falls in love with it. 


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## jwing

Upgrade to a catamaran. Try to get a friend or two of hers to share the charter. If she doesn't like sailing a cat in the BVI, give it up. Nothing wrong with a retirement house on a tropical island with a daysailor.

Whatever boat you get, go easy on all the technical stuff related to safety, like: tether, harness, PFDs. You don't need them in the BVI, and they will make your wife's trepidation worse. Don't sail on days when you would want to use a tether or even wear a PFD. 

If you don't follow any of that advice, at least follow this: don't make her do all the cooking, dishwashing, and cleaning. In fact, do let her do any of it.


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## northernsquirrel

Thanks to everybody, I have really enjoyed the diversity of the comments. Thanks Faster! I was thinking exactly the same thing- short and sweet sails, hence the destination. No beating. really mellow sailing. Tanski, Bare- for the record we have six dogs, all rescue. Thank goodness that no dogs are on this mission. 

Mark, I like the idea of a pre sail mimosa for momma. But not too many! None for me, just a post-game dark n stormy. Paul, I will watch for that, too. Danvon, I hadn't thought about the pfd/tether being anxiety provoking; I will watch for that and play it by ear.

Any group consensus on most sedating antinauseant?

A couple of years after the kayak incident, we and another family chartered an evening cruise aboard a trimaran in Mazatlan. The "pro" crew had us on a heading into the chop that was producing a wallowing motion (pitch AND roll). Everybody was turning green. After about 10-15 minutes of this nonsense I asked (politely, Canadian, eh) for a turn at the wheel. Two seconds later I'd changed to the right heading and the motion smoothed right out. Then the party started. I drove the rest of the evening. 

SailingFool, Bleemus, thank you for the concern. I do believe that I can drive the boat successfully. However, if Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. If that means hiring a skipper, so be it. It's only money, not my ego. We will be having that conversation soon. 

It's funny, but in a previous life, I would do some potentially "exciting" things. Doing this mission right, with the family is important to me. Your suggestions are helping my planning and situational awareness. Thank you very much. Cheers.


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## MarkofSeaLife

If you want to keep it flat plan your route carefully.
I would go: Roadtown, Trellis Bay, Cane Garden, Jost van Duke, Sopers, then the southern islands up to V Gorda and back to Roadtown.
That way the roughest passages are later in the week. 

Others who cruise BVIs more often may have a better plan.


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## Shockwave

Sometime during the trip your going to have to go East through the Drake Passage. It can be a heavy beat and the sea state (Caribbean two step) can be vomit inducing. If you have a light air day, try to make all your Easting that day, after that it's all easy down hill sailing.


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## blowinstink

Mark makes good points about planning. Your charter company will give you a good intro and what you'll find is pretty much everyone who does the BVI charter thing does the same counter-clockwise loop. Big keys for reducing stress are sail early and get in early -- the wind will be lower and you will have more luck grabbing open and choice moorings at your destination. The alchohol advice is funny and has some merit depending on the situation. But, in general, I would go the other way . . . booze tends to have a cumulative effect and leads to more stressful situations and less ability to cope with them. So, I wouldn't turn down wine with dinner or a few beers, I'd be aware that booze can set that schedule off track and make things harder not easier.


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## mstern

Asking about the best seasickness strategy is like asking about the best way to cure a cold: everybody has a different opinion. The most effective medication seems to be the scopaline patch, but that's only by scrip, and that can have some pretty serious side effects. I personally have found Bonine the most effective OTC med. It's the same stuff as the non-drowsy Dramamine but in a chewable tablet. Regular Dramamine is also effective, but it knocks me out. There have been a number of studies on how to minimize/avoid it in the first place, but I think they mostly boil down to: stop drinking alcohol before leaving, avoid greasy, heavy food, and don't spend a lot of time below. Any Google search will bring up more specifics than you want to know.

But for my money, the very best solution is this:

NEUROWAVE MEDICAL Relief Band? | West Marine

These wrist bands were originally developed for chemo patients. Unlike those elastic wristbands they sell at your local drugstore, the electric models are FDA-approved. That bears repeating: because their claims have been supported by scientific studies and clinical evidence, they can say in advertising and literature that this product is a safe and effective treatment for nausea. I've seen these bands stop seasickness that has already hit; none of the medications can say that. Once, my wife woke up in the middle of the night with terrible nausea. I put the band on her wrist, turned it on, and boom. Within 10 seconds her nausea was almost all gone. Just so cool.


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## SloopJonB

Getting back to the beginning of the thread, introducing a nervous person to the water on a kayak is the second worst way to do it - a canoe being the worst.

A better way to do it is to take them out first on a loud, hard riding powerboat. Then take them sailing on a light air day - under 12 knots.

If they don't prefer and enjoy the sailboat then they're not right for you anyway.


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## krisscross

Perhaps there is more to it than suddenly developing a 'fear of water'. Perhaps she has doubts about your ability to make good decisions regarding the safety of your children and your family in general. You may want to ask for her input a lot more often if that is the case and keep things going at her level of comfort.


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## Ded reckoner

You mention sailing with a long term view. I think there might be several things you could try to encourage your wife. If you encourage her to engage in lap swimming on a regular schedule, then she likely will be more comfortable around water, getting water in her face, and getting wet. Also, if you and your wife joined a gym together, then you and she can be each other's gym buddy providing encouragement to stick with it. The point of the gym would be to improve physical fitness. I think your wife's confidence will increase with her fitness. Have you considered taking sailing lessons together (e.g. ASA classes)? If her sailing competence and capability increases, so might her interest. Are you around a sailing club you both could join? This presents not only opportunities for sailing but will open up the social aspects of sailing. If your wife has a lot of friends who are around water and like sailing, this might color her disposition. You asked about anti-nausea medication. I would recommend you talk to your doctor about Zofran (available by prescription only; it's a cancer anti-nausea medication that is taken only after symptoms are expressed, is fast acting, and doesn't cause drowsiness) and Stugeron (google "stugeron tablets"). If your wife is already disinclined to sailing, nausea will seal her negative attitude. Finally, I would recommend you give her the Lin Pardey books. Lin presents her experiences with Larry in an encouraging and winsome way to which her wife might respond positively.


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## northernsquirrel

Thank you to everyone. Mark, Ishmael, Shock; excellent ideas about the route. I was just going to do the regular CCW route, and will do that if the first day is smooth. Otherwise, looks like 7 nm to Trellis (like 2-4 hours depending on speed), then 3 days of "sheltered" sailing assuming E or NE winds. I like the logic of that. There's also bail-out spots on the way if needed. And if the wind is more northerly, we might just go downwind around Tortola first. Soper's straight line looks like 5.5 nm? Any thoughts on this plan?

Jon, Kriss, ironically she used to do lifeguarding as a youth/young adult. And funnier still, we did canoeing together when we were younger. I'm not worried about the rest of the crew. My oldest has done CYA4 and ISPA day skipper. The middle son has done CYA3. I'm not worried about the youngest. She's done tons of reef snorkeling with me, even with currents. Loves the water and has done sea kayaking since. The Mrs. has let me take the kids on numerous ski trips, canoeing trips, backpacking, etc. Brought them back each and every time. Nope, I think it's the fear of water that's the key. I think that managing her stress level over the first couple of days is going to be critical. For the record, I am the chef in the kitchen. And masseur and bottle washer. So she will be pampered. 

I'm hoping with a couple of days of really really low-key, low stress sailing that the nerves come down. And believe me, I wouldn't even be trying this if the Mazatlan experience had been a total gong show. And Ded, yes that is totally my longer-term plan. And she will be taking the wheel on this trip. Everybody gets a turn.

Mstern, thanks for the link to the bands. And like you said, everybody has a favourite remedy. I'll look into that info.

Again, thanks to everyone.


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## chuck5499

northernsquirrel said:


> We are chartering a monohull in the BVI for a week. I won't be heeling the boat, I will be driving for ultimate comfort. BVI's, breakfast in bed, flowers, champagne,etc. I need her to get past initial fear and feel comfortable. Now old squirrel boy (me) can sometimes get immersed into adrenaline activities at the slightest provocation. But I'm hopeful to enlist the children three to help me keep it at an intensity level that is more appropriate for a lady of flag rank.


I have been known to be blunt so I will be blunt. You did say their was any previous water experience so I assume none until you put everyone in a kayak in tough water and had a really bad experience. I would not want to go again either. That was really not very wise and I am being nice here.

Now saying that - can you sail? And I mean lesson ect? Can the Misses or kids sail? Have they ever sailed? 
If the answer is no climb out of the man cave and suggest a family learning experience and take a teaching captain where the captain will teach the family to work as a unit, like in the military, and not as this is what I want to do. When the youngest gets their turn at the helm and playing capt for a while it changes perception a lot. When the misses gets to the helm and runs the boat and you do what she wants as she is running the boat it may make all the difference in the world. 
AND it will make the whole family work as a team which it should have in the first place. Good luck as if it works look out for where it may take you 
and get off the ego thing and build confidence gradually.


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## chuck5499

missed the sea sickness thing I guess -- neither of us have that problem but we have had upset tummies at times while underway and we keep a couple of bags of ginger cookies and eat them all day and they calm the nervous tummy. My daughter in law got a really bad bug when I was back in the states last year and I got her ginger cookies and she was reluctant to eat them but did and was amazed how much better she felt.


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## Tanski

I could never get a straight answer about why my ex hated sailing, wasn't fear of water or anything, she competed in long distance swimming races and had her scuba ticket, swam at the Y 3 days a week. I'm the one who doesn't like swimming/water very much!
Funny thing is right fom the first date she knew I was a sailor and what my long term plans were.
I can only guess she expected me to give up something I've been doing since I was a kid. Kind of like those women who love your motorcycle until you get married.......
She had no use for powerboats either.
Best of luck!
P.S. I am a very good swimmer, as I've gotten older I just don't enjoy it. I will swim if I need to do something boat related.


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## Cande

There's a fun and interesting book I've just finished reading: "Dragged Aboard, A Cruising Guide for the Reluctant Mate," by Don Casey, that I found at my library. It's excellent! Published in 1998. Amazon has a copy available for $35. But it has so many great ideas and it's sensitively written. And fun! Good luck!


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## fallard

Suggested BVI stops for northern squirrel:

Day one: afternoon departure from charter base (Road Town?). Sail 5nm to Cooper Island and pick up mooring (inner is better if available). Make a reservation at the Cooper Island Beach Club restaurant.

Day one alternative:If Cooper Island moorings are not available, motor an additional 5nm to Virgin Gorda Yacht Harbour and take a slip. (An alternative is to anchor at Colison point.). The slip fees are reasonable and you have showers for the girls, a pub, convenience store, taxis.

Day two: snorkel at Cooper Island before motoring to Virgin Gorda Yacht Harbour. Take a slip and then take an open air taxi to the Baths (bring snorkel stuff: backpacks would be useful for towels, cameras, water, etc.) it is not too late in the day. Showers at the Yacht Harbour. Taxi back to Top of the Baths for a nice dinner ($$).

Day three: Consider staying over at the Yacht Harbour for a second night. Spend more time at the Baths or take a taxi tour of Virgin Gorda. Top off water tank before leaving.

Day four: Sail to Marina Cay and pick up mooring. Check out Marina Cay gift shop and restaurant. Also, you can snorkel off their beach.

Day five: Sail to Peter Island, with optional stops at Salt Island to snorkel over RMS Rhone wreck from day moorings. Continue past Dead Chest to Great Harbour for moorings or beyond to Little Harbour to anchor. Be aware of back winding and possible need to run a line from the stern to the shore to stabilize boat heading and avoid conflicts with other boats. Watch where you step to avoid sea urchins when going ashore. Snorkel off the boat.

Day six: Sail to Norman Island and take mooring close to shore in the Bight. Restaurant on shore (dinghy in to make reservations.). Hike the island, snorkel off the boat (why you want a mooring near shore), dinghy over to the treasure caves for more snorkeling.

Day seven: motor or motor sail back to base.

This itinerary will avoid making commitments to longer sails upwind, particularly if the winds are up. The hops are short enough to minimize the potential for mal de mer. Having sailed all over the Virgin Islands over many years, I've always found it a real slog to beat in an easterly direction. The constant east-to-west current doesn't help, either. For that reason, I have always motored in that direction.

The stops and sequencing above are suggestions, of course. You will make your decisions based on conditions and crew attitude, of course.

P.S. Agree with others about your PDF, tethers, etc., concerns being a sign of anxiety rather than need. The ultra conservative sailors may wear their PDFs all the time, but you won't see many--if any--being worn in the BVI. You are not in the open ocean, so there are not huge waves to worry about--just the wind-driven chop. There are PDFs aboard all of the charter boats, but they aren't comfortable. If someone goes overboard, you and your crew need to be prepared for the man overboard exercise, but that applies wherever you sail.


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## SloopJonB

Tanski said:


> Funny thing is right fom the first date she knew I was a sailor and what my long term plans were.
> I can only guess she expected me to give up something I've been doing since I was a kid. Kind of like those women who love your motorcycle until you get married.......


Read an account recently (on SA?) about a racer guy whose new wife told him after a race "we won't be doing this anymore". When he pointed out that he had been doing it a long time and she had enjoyed it while they were dating, she looked at him like he was a dummy and said "We're married now".

A lot of people just have bad taste in the opposite sex - you *have* to be able to see that sort of thing coming.


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## Donna_F

Cande said:


> There's a fun and interesting book I've just finished reading: "Dragged Aboard, A Cruising Guide for the Reluctant Mate," by Don Casey, that I found at my library. ...


In my head I read "Dragged Aboard, A Cruising Guide for the Reluctant MaLe" and thought GREAT since I'm the one making all the plans and researching the boats and signing up for workshops and training.

Then I re-read it correctly.


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## Donna_F

SloopJonB said:


> Read an account recently (on SA?) about a racer guy who's new wife told him after a race "we won't be doing this anymore". When he pointed out that he had been doing it a long time and she had enjoyed it while they were dating, she looked at him like he was a dummy and said "We're married now".
> 
> A lot of people just have bad taste in the opposite sex - you *have* to be able to see that sort of thing coming.


I hear that too often. Maybe it's just not how I'm wired but it makes zero sense to me no matter how I struggle to rationalize it from the woman's perspective.


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## Ajax_MD

I was once told by a wise person: "Women love a man who is passionate. They absolutely hate the thing he is passionate about."


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## SloopJonB

DRFerron said:


> I hear that too often. Maybe it's just not how I'm wired but it makes zero sense to me no matter how I struggle to rationalize it from the woman's perspective.


From what I know of you from your writing, you are a pretty atypical woman.

I particularly enjoyed the dumpster diving incident. :wink


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## Uricanejack

Don't scare her. not right away anyways. 
Don't make her do anything she doesn't want to. until she wants to.

People are most afraid of what they don't know. The unknown. 
People are often almost as afraid to ask. A fear of appearing stupid.
Before you leave the dock, take the time to show her round the boat, where and what things are, 
Understanding things helps alleviate fears. 
Particularly things like lifejackets, how to get out, fire extinguishers, the radio, how to call for help, (red button if DSC) flares. 
How to turn the gas on and off. 
Sometimes simple things like how the heads work.

Don't worry much about what things are called. Head ,can, galley, kitchen, front, back, left, right. 

Take the time to explain what you are doing and why, little things like standing on when the big power boat is coming. or just getting away from the dock without anyone falling in.

Why you are going this way, or that way and where the rocks are.

Let her get happy with the boat just cruising along under power. let her steer, 

Don't make a big deal about keeping boat upright.

Explain about the big lump of lead underneath, and why it wont tip over.

when you are in open water put the main up. tell her what you are doing and why. shut the motor off
show her how it works. try a few different points of sail. tell her about the reefs.
do a few tacks. 
try a gybe.
Let her get comfortable with just the main tell her you can start the motor any time.

when she is happy add the jib.

Do the same again.

Reef early, or even stow all the sails and motor.

By this time she may have already realised a sail boat is steadier and more comfortable with a sail up. even if you didn't tell her.

Take it slowly. let her comfort and confidence dictate how long this takes, one afternoon or a whole week.

By the sounds of it you and your kids are already confident and competent. If she is coming she must be willing.

The above may all sound strangely like a sailing lesson. It is. just don't push any of it. If she wants to sit in the cockpit drinking wine enjoying the sun and paying no attention leaving it all to you and the kids, let her. 

You might be surprised just how much she takes in.

Once something is understood its much less scary, knowing you have some control over it makes it even less scary.

My wife has no interest in learning how to sail. Worries about everything. Will steer so long as we are out in the open and nowhere near a dock, doesn't do halliards. or anything else to do with sails, except the jib sheets.( provided I do not complain, offer to help, or give any advice) will not do any navigating, goes bellow if it gets windy and the boat heels, doesn't like the boat healing. does not leave the cockpit unless, she is going ashore, 

we figured all this out the first time we went sailing.

What surprised me the second time.
How much she explained to our friends who came sailing for the first time.

She only like's sailing on calm sunny days. She doesn't like motoring because its noisy and smells bad. Usually she insists on coming with me if the winds strong, Just to make sure I am ok. 

What the heck it works


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## fallard

One more thing about The Baths: You can pick up a day mooring for the mother ship and dinghy into the dinghy tie line, but you'll have to swim ashore from there. (Strictly speaking, you are not supposed to land your dinghy on the beaches at either end.)

I mentioned the Virgin Gorda Yacht Harbour stop by Spanish Town, which I have done several times, because it is allows a much more civilized way to approach The Baths: by taxi. More than that, it is the most protected stop you'll have during the week and will help everyone decompress at the beginning of the charter. You need to mind the buoys to guide you around the reef and into the harbor. You will want to call ahead (VHF) to arrange for a slip and find out what side to pre rig your fenders. You may be approaching the slip with a cross wind, but with an adult-size crew to manage lines and help fend off, you should be OK.

One more thing: you need to be prepared for "backwinding". In most places we sail your boat will be pointing into the prevailing wind at anchor, but that rarely seems to happen in the Virgin Islands. When you are approaching shallow, near shore water in a harbor, such as Little Harbour on Peter Island, you will typically have been heading into the prevailing wind as you prepare to drop your anchor. However, the steep terrain of the volcanic islands results in the wind forming an eddy. This is where the wind curls behind the steep hills and actually reverses direction in the immediate vicinity of the shore. Once the hook is down, your boat will likely point in a VERY different direction than you expected. Neighboring boats could be swinging differently than you, so to keep the anchorage organized, folks will run a stern line to shore and tie off to a hard spot, like a boulder or a solid tree trunk. That way you and your neighboring boats will stay out of each others' way and everybody can relax and enjoy the scenery.


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## cshrimpt

mstern said:


> My first thought was "catamaran" too. They sail FLAT. No heeling. Lots of room.


Cat would be good. Normal sized appliances, big berths, walk around without hanging on for dear life. Plus there's less chance of seasickness for most people due the the jerky motion of a cat vs the rolly motion of a mono.

Craig


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## northernsquirrel

Thanks again, everyone. Chuck, totally appreciate bluntness. My O groups (orders) were always very very open and bluntness was encouraged. I'm the same way with the family. Yup, have some courses, kids have some training too. I think the crew is ready, I'm just doing due diligence and mission planning to keep Momma on board. Bubblehead, SloopJon, Tanski and DrFerron, you are all presenting very very appropriate outlooks on this issue. The whole point of my asking these questions is to try to keep the wife interested. I am confident I can do the boat thing, it's keeping one particular person reassured and comfortable. Conde, I will find that book. Relationships, eh? A source of endless fascination and bewilderment and patterns....

Fallard- thank you for the route planning tips. I will be taking those considerations into account. First day- depends on conditions, go E or sail to the lee side of Tortola? I also like the tips on the yacht clubs. Thank you for the backwinding tip. Most people tie to shore as opposed to a Bahamian anchoring set up? Failing that, mooring ball time. 

Uricanejack, you read my mind. I was totally planning on doing that, in small bits, not all at once. I am hoping to accomplish what you have done to encourage your loved one. Thank you again, everybody.


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## chuck5499

northernsquirrel said:


> The way we do it - and we are a team - is I plan and then go over it with her - if she has reservations we talk about it -- we are planning a trip right now and I planned it and she read the cruising guide and said are you sure and I said how many times have we heard xyz on why we should not go someplace -she laughed and said a lot in fact we would have never left fla if we listened.
> 
> Saying that - when we are underway I get up and do the weather and then we go over it together - I make the decisions but if she sees a dangerous reason not to go we don't - each day I go over the ports we plan to hit - miles entrance ect.
> 
> When we anchor she has the helm -- as we approach we both look and talk and jointly select the spot and then I approach and when I go to neutral she takes the helm and I go forward and drop the hook and we use hand signals to go into reverse - speed up down neutral ect. until we get the scope I want - I also want to feet the chain as I can feel the grab when the anchor bites - we do the same on hook up as she has the helm and I pull the hook with the windlass and get it stowed and before we leave we look and decide which was out -
> on docking in a med mooring I back in and she drops the anchor but not before we look and agree on what spot we want -
> it is a team effort
> but sometimes in the end and we disagree I have to make the call but that is very rare and I have to justify it ie this is not a good anchorage as the winds may come around and yea it is bumpy out there but it will be worse in here so we got 4 hours of a bumpy ride but better protection ect
> team effort and make her part of the planning process


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## jwing

Uricanejack said:


> Before you leave the dock, take the time to show her round the boat, where and what things are,
> Understanding things helps alleviate fears.
> Particularly things like lifejackets, how to get out, fire extinguishers, the radio, how to call for help, (red button if DSC) flares.
> How to turn the gas on and off.
> Sometimes simple things like how the heads work.
> 
> Don't worry much about what things are called. Head ,can, galley, kitchen, front, back, left, right.
> 
> Take the time to explain what you are doing and why, little things like standing on when the big power boat is coming. or just getting away from the dock without anyone falling in.
> 
> Why you are going this way, or that way and where the rocks are.
> 
> Let her get happy with the boat just cruising along under power. let her steer,
> 
> Don't make a big deal about keeping boat upright.
> 
> Explain about the big lump of lead underneath, and why it wont tip over.
> 
> when you are in open water put the main up. tell her what you are doing and why. shut the motor off
> show her how it works. try a few different points of sail. tell her about the reefs.
> do a few tacks.
> try a gybe.
> Let her get comfortable with just the main tell her you can start the motor any time.
> 
> when she is happy add the jib.
> 
> Do the same again.
> 
> Reef early, or even stow all the sails and motor.
> 
> By this time she may have already realised a sail boat is steadier and more comfortable with a sail up. even if you didn't tell her.
> 
> Take it slowly. let her comfort and confidence dictate how long this takes, one afternoon or a whole week.
> 
> By the sounds of it you and your kids are already confident and competent. If she is coming she must be willing.


I'm not saying this is wrong, but it would not have worked with any of the ten women I've cruised with. They were there to relax; sailing was just a glorified beach trip to them, although they all enjoyed taking turns at driving the boat, eventually.



Uricanejack said:


> The above may all sound strangely like a sailing lesson. It is. just don't push any of it. If she wants to sit in the cockpit drinking wine enjoying the sun and paying no attention leaving it all to you and the kids, let her.
> 
> You might be surprised just how much she takes in.
> 
> Once something is understood its much less scary, knowing you have some control over it makes it even less scary.
> 
> My wife has no interest in learning how to sail. Worries about everything. Will steer so long as we are out in the open and nowhere near a dock, doesn't do halliards. or anything else to do with sails, except the jib sheets.( provided I do not complain, offer to help, or give any advice) will not do any navigating, goes bellow if it gets windy and the boat heels, doesn't like the boat healing. does not leave the cockpit unless, she is going ashore,
> 
> we figured all this out the first time we went sailing.
> 
> What surprised me the second time.
> How much she explained to our friends who came sailing for the first time.
> 
> She only like's sailing on calm sunny days. She doesn't like motoring because its noisy and smells bad. Usually she insists on coming with me if the winds strong, Just to make sure I am ok.
> 
> What the heck it works


The second half aligns with my experience. If a woman is particularly motivated to learn how to sail, she will accept all the teaching/reassuring that a man might give her. If she is not particularly motivated, she will learn whatever she wants to learn by observation or by asking questions; the rest she will ignore and get irritated if she feels overwhelmed by information that she is not interested in. This is all 'Understanding Women 101', isn't it?

Every sport that I really enjoy is male-dominated, but women can do just as well, and lots do. But everyone of those sports also has women-only instructional sessions. It seems that women learn differently than men and learn better in male-less situations. Keep your maleness in check and let your woman be a female.

By the way, this is a good reason to charter with another couple or two. The gals get to relax and participate in the actual sailing as much as they want or don't want to; the guys can putz around with the gear and help each other deal with all things boat-related.


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## fallard

northernsquirrel said:


> First day- depends on conditions, go E or sail to the lee side of Tortola? I also like the tips on the yacht clubs. Thank you for the backwinding tip. Most people tie to shore as opposed to a Bahamian anchoring set up? Failing that, mooring ball time.


Lee side of Tortola? In at least 6 charters in the BVI, the only lee side of Tortola I found was Soper's Hole/West End. You will find it very uncomfortable heading in an easterly direction under sail on either side of Tortola. Given your concern for making the admiral comfortable, I would stay on the Drake Channel side, as it gives you a number of closely-spaced off ramps (compared to the northern side of Tortola. You really want to motor when going east as I indicated in an earlier post if you want the admiral to stay onboard.

You are more likely to take a mooring ball in most harbors. Certainly you should take a mooring when one is available. The stern tie-off to shore is typical at the east end of Little Harbour on Peter Island. You are not likely to find it elsewhere in the BVI. There are other anchorages, but you will likely have enough room to swing on one anchor.

BTW, if you want to circumnavigate Tortola, my recommendation would be to do it in a CCW direction, using Marina Cay as a jumping off point to head toward Jost van Dyke. You need to mind the charts as you work around Camenoe Island. Monkey Point, with day moorings, is a nice lunch stop with snorkeling. You could continue to Sandy Cay and Green Cay for short stops and then continue on to Little Harbour (moorings preferred) or Great Harbour (moorings have popped up recently and are highly recommended over anchoring) where Foxy's is located. I do not recommend beautiful White Bay for an overnight and your charter company probably has it off limits, anyway). Unless you like the beach bar scene, you might skip Cane Garden Bay in favor of Jost van Dyke, where Foxy's will scratch your itch for a beach bar scene that is civilized enough for your family. You might continue your circumnavigation by heading to Soper's Hole and pick up a mooring overnight. There is a Pusser's restaurant there and some quaint shops for the ladies. Continuing, you need to explore by land and sea(snorkel) at Norman Island before heading back to the charter base.


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## northernsquirrel

A big thank you to everybody who has contributed. I'm feeling a lot more at ease with the upcoming trip, and the breadth of ideas on how to smooth out the first day is awesome. Thanks again.


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## northernsquirrel

Howdy again to everyone who has contributed to the discussion. Just thought I'd give you an update on how the trip went. Overall, very very well. Momma is still talking to me, which is a good sign. She has even agreed to go to the sail show in Annapolis this October. She has also agreed to take at least one sailing course! She agrees that she would prefer to be not taught by me, which really reduces my stress level. 

The islands were beautiful, the people were friendly the snorkeling was amazing and the sailing ran the full gamut from glassy water to one lovely day of reaching, seas 3-4, 20 kts wind. Dolphins escorting the boat. Magic. My daughter helming the boat. Head didn't get plugged. So far a perfect week. Anegada, which is our personal favourite. Sounds good so far, right? 

My first inkling that things were not going to go according to plan was the three squall lines that came through Anegada at dawn. Horizontal and vertical rain, and lots of it. Wind in the anchorage 35-40 kts from E. So listened to weather radio on my handheld, as the charter boat had european kit that wouldn't receive wx channels. Small Craft Advisory, very strong westerly flow aloft, with possibility of isolated to scattered thunderstorms, possibility of water spouts. So, phoned the charter company and asked- Jost possible today or head back to North Sound on Virgin Gorda? They thought that Jost would be do-able in two hours, and advised to go for it.

So we headed out in between squalls , I like to be able to see all the channel markers. The Gribs had said sea state 4-5, swells, wind E or NE 20kts. Initially, that is what we experienced. Intermittent showers, which decreased visibility. My oldest son was sick, so no first mate. Couldn't see the edge of the squall that hit us because of the rain. Sails come down, engine goes on, and the seas start building really quickly. Gusts are howling now in the rigging. Dinghy is swamped, but that works to our advantage as a bit of a sea anchor and slows down the boat. I can't safely stand by the wheel so on goes the autopilot. I'm looking for a tether, but there are none to be found. Running downwind, and trying to come up more southerly in order to make it to Jost. Tried going up wind, seas too steep, made a whole 200 meter progress in 15 minutes, so came back to running. Boat motion was better, too. Nine hours of sailing later, we made it to great harbour, because I wanted something quite distinctive visually for landfall. Yes, the Virgin Islands get quite dark at night. Made it, daughter helped pick up the mooring on the first pass. Talk about trial by fire. But like I said, momma is still intrigued about sailing.


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## DefianceNYC

just tell the kids they will have some awesome instagram and snapchats to share from the boat. that should do it!


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## outbound

Have done the loop multiple times through the BVIs. For non sailors think best move is to sail down wind or reach for a short sail first. Then sit and do a non sailing activity until they get use to boat life.

Example- sail to st.john. Anchor/moor in caneel bay. Dinghy to Cruz to clear, shop and do dinner.

Go to national park like maho bay. Just snorkel off back of boat, hang out and chill. In a day or three go to Sopers hole to clear in again. There is an awesome Italian restaurant there. Once again a easy short day sail.

Then Norman and see the wreck. Still a short near reach. No heavy lifting. 

Finally see how your honey is doing with the sailing. If ok go up to either north sound or by the dogs to anagada. If not show her how the other half lives and go to coopers.

In short don't make the sailing the activity du jour. Rather stress the other stuff. Throw in a few good restaurants like the one at caneel the first night. You can get in the sailing on your next trip and there is more likihood of a next trip.

Basic point is- sure educate yourself about the places and make a general plan. But don't be bound by it. Maybe she doesn't want to see the fish at Maho but is up to hike through the sugar plantation and see the donkeys. Go with it. Let her choose what to do and where to go. Make it her vacation.

Would note I've never chartered but have observed them to my endless amusement. Schedules kill when passaging but schedules seem to ruin more charters from what I've seen. Realize you can get from anywhere to anywhere in a day. You won't miss your flight home. If you miss a few islands so what. Just have too much fun.

Still can't get my wife to do a passage. She will do 5 day jumps with no land falls near coastal. But she loves the virgins and we are 50/50 on all sailing duties down there. She agreed to sell the house so converts do happen. It just has to be done in their way on their schedule respectfully with more joy than tears.

Realize this post is a day late and a dollar short. So glad things worked out. Hope this post helps others.


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## cshrimpt

FSMike said:


> Mistake # 2 - a monohull instead of a catamaran. If it's not too late to change you might want to do so (if it's in the budget).


Absolutely switch to a cat. Sails flat, less likely to experience seasickness, a deck you can walk on without worrying about falling overboard and normal sized appliances for the Admiral.

A much more pleasant sailing adventure for the uninitiated.

Shrimp


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## mrichmon

Went out as crew yesterday on a boat with a bunch of non-sailers (11 onboard, 4 of us had sailing experience). It was a day sail around San Francisco bay. 10 -14 kts wind, and the usual strong currents.

A few people who were nervous seemed to relax a little after some time on the helm. We set up on a long close reach and helped the nervous folks to comfortable steering a course based on keeping the sails filled. It seemed like the exercise helped on two ways: they had the steering to focus on, and in the process of steering got some feeling for how the boat moves.

I've read in a few places that sometimes it is better for couples to take sailing lessons separately. This helps avoid creating situations in class where one spouse gets less instruction/confidence building because the other spouse already has the skill. Different people learn things at different rates. If there is already some discomfort around sailing it might help to create an environment where your wife can build up her skills on her own terms.


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## outbound

cshrimpt said:


> Absolutely switch to a cat. Sails flat, less likely to experience seasickness.
> 
> Shrimp


I'm uncertain if this is true. My understanding is roughly speaking there are two groups of people. Those sensitive to low frequency, slow acceleration motion. Those sensitive to higher frequency, fast acceleration.
From that observation one can abstract some will be more prone to motion sickness on multis or ultra lights or very stiff boats with their quick sudden motions and others on heavy displacement monos or larger monos. 
Some will fare worse in short, steep chop. Others in ocean rollers. 
Although a 45' cat may weigh ~1/2 what a 45' mono weighs it is a much bigger boat. Although wetted surface maybe much less than the comparible mono looking down at it like a bird sitting on the mast head it covers a lot more sea. 
Again speaking roughly bigger boats are more comfortable in a seaway. Perhaps these factors lead to the impression cats are less puke-o-genic.


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## cshrimpt

outbound said:


> I'm uncertain if this is true. My understanding is roughly speaking there are two groups of people. Those sensitive to low frequency, slow acceleration motion. Those sensitive to higher frequency, fast acceleration.
> .


You could be right. I've heard of people that have no problems on a passage, but get sick as a dog in a choppy anchorage.

Shrimp


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## outbound

Opinion comes from reading medical publications and NASA/Air Force/navy research. Still would seem applicable to sailors.


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## capta

Wow, what a story. I think I could walk from Anegada to Jost in 9 hours. lol. Talk about taking your time!
Anyway, I think you are on the right path. I firmly believe that the best way to get one's significant other to enjoy the sailing is to first demote them from a know nothing admiral to a learning and participating crew member.
I want (and at this point have) a partner and my best friend to sail with. It makes it so much more fun.
Just keep in mind that no matter what mistakes she might make, you are the captain, and therefore the responsible party, so don't give her a hard time. Later, much later, you two can discuss how you can make it so she can accomplish her task (jumping ashore with the bow line, for instance) more easily. Always make it about your failure not hers. That means if you need to put the boat alongside the dock, stopped, then you have to learn to do that, for your besty. In time, she'll become more accomplished and you'll have a great crew and partner to sail with.
I've always said that wives are a dime a dozen, but a good gal crew is a a true gem and very nearly irreplaceable.
Good luck.


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## chuck5499

Good to hear it went well. and family was all involved. 
and check the wx ect was good call 
and glad the wife is going to do lessons on her own -- awesome 

NOW - a bit of a critic -- I do understand a bit of you taking the advise from the charter compay - and look what it got you - beat up -- in the Carbbean is a weather router we used when we sail the carib - Chris Parker - great guy and good wx man - he runs an ssb net each morning - we met him once and he told me that it is my responsibility to make my own weather assessment not take the advise of others and we have done that - when we came acoss the Atlantic people said there is a good window and left - but we talked to Chris and yea it was a good window for a while but if the front that was coming across the USA went south instead of across it would be ugly - I saw the same and discussed it with Chris and the odds were it would move north - but I made the decision to sit and the front moved south and 3 boats that left did not make it -- 

today we were suppose to have 10-12ne winds with 1' seas in the Sea of Marmara - I checked 3 weather models and got the same from each - we headed out and the winds were a bit higher than anticipated but we chaucked it up to winds coming down the mountain side as we were close to land so a lot of land breeze - we got away from land and got 20-25k winds and seas at 2-4' breaking and on a 2-3 second interval - we bailed and made it into a small cove with sea protection but not the wind - 

some days we hear others say let's go as it is not that bad - we look and say - nope we are sitting and do - NO IS A GOOD WORD -- people then say we are not good sailors or ect or ect but you know what most of those folks are still sitting someplace and we got over 30knm, hundreds of foreign ports over 40 countires and could care less what others think 

by the way tomorrow is suppose to be 10-12k but if it is blowing in the morning we are sitting - I am too old to get beat up 

Don't listen to others on when to go or not -- do what is right for the crew - we


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## banjoflyer

Charting in the BVI is what did it for us. My wife had never been sailing before. On our several charter trips in the BVI we invited some witty and attractive friends to join us so my lovely wife could play host and make sure that everyone else was having a great time (one of her strengths). After 6 days of sun, rum, water and relaxation we were all seriously considering calling in sane to work and re-chartering for another week. 

Fast forward 10 years... 

We have just completed the purchase of our retirement home, a Pearson 36-1. As I busy myself with mechanical upgrades, my wife is selecting curtain fabric and picking out cockpit cushions. I do believe that she may be more excited that I am.


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## chuck5499

chuck5499 said:


> Good to hear it went well. and family was all involved.
> and check the wx ect was good call
> and glad the wife is going to do lessons on her own -- awesome
> 
> by the way tomorrow is suppose to be 10-12k but if it is blowing in the morning we are sitting - I am too old to get beat up
> 
> Don't listen to others on when to go or not -- do what is right for the crew - we


The day after I wrote this we headed out and for once we could sail - well a sail a bit - we headed up between mainland and an island and winds from 3 forecasts were for NE 8-12k seas about 1' - In the channel we had anywhere from 2 to 26k so we pulled the sails and motored as we were sure once we rounded the end of the mainland and headed due east we could sail close to the wind - we got to the end - 10nm trip and we had NE 20-25k winds, seas were 2-4' on a 2-3 sec interval and breaking - we turned down wind and sea and surfed for about 4miles into and channel and around a head land and in to an anchorage where we dropped hook behind some hills so we got no seas but wind was a constant 15-20 all day - and today we can see out the cut we came in and big white dogs are running down the sea so we are sitting another day - And the admiral is appreciative of it as we see no reason to get beat up - 
Yes sometimes the weather is wrong - dead wrong and you have to deal with it but if I want to blame someone I look in the mirror

And I should have know better as when we came up the channel we saw all the fishing boats sitting - hum - think they know something I don't?


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## outbound

Banjo- you are a very smart soul. When buying the "last boat" the bride picked out the corian, the cushion ultraseude, the wood for interior, what ancillaries ( heat, AC etc.). She was given a list of three models of different brands of boats and she picked which one to buy. This gave her ownership. It's our boat not my boat. That is huge.


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