# sculling....wow



## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

well, i have been considering building a chinese sculling oar, a yuloh, for my cal 27; either in addition to a motor or instead of one. i have never actually sculled, before. like every dinghy sailor i have semi-sculled with my rudder, from time to time. but, i've never sculled with an oar. while ssailing the 9' dinghy, troday, i had about 15 minutes of dead calm, between the morning's 5mph winds and the afternoon's 12 to 15 mph winds. so, i decided to try sculing. i left my oar in it's regular oar lock, rather than trying to put it over the transom. i used the falling leaf type of horizontal sculling....and i was amazed. it wasn't hard to keep the boat going straight, even though the oar was very offset, by simply changing the angle of attack between 'strokes'. and, although i had 5'2" of oar on one side of the lock and only 10" of oar at my hand ( very bad leverage problem ), i used far less effort to scull the boat at a good pace than i would be to row.

and i was able to scull backwards, too. it was simple, although because my of leverage problem, it was harder than sculling forwards. i had problems keeping the oar in the water ( forwards the water holds the oar down. backwards it pushes it up ) and keeping tye proper angle of attack to scull straight. so, what i did was scull backwards with both oars. using a real sculling oar, closer to the center of the transom would be much easier. also, a yuloh would be much more efficient than my oars, to use for sculling. 

everyone should try to scull and learn it. it's almost magical, how it works. kind of like sailing up wind.

so, a yuloh is in my future and, depending on costs, maybe a motor is not...at least for now.

i am going to build my yuloh and then practice sculling the cal backwards and forwards, in the slip, until i get good at it. then, i will practice sculling out of and into the slip. if i get good at that, straight sculling will be easy. that way, when i get the cal ready to sail, i will be good at sculling, too.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Sounds great would keep the engine though there are times when you may need power and both hands at the same time for different tasks. (moofie will strike). What are you considering for the lock on the transom?


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

I have sculled many miles chasing ducks. Sculling a larger boat may work if you have lots of time to get out of the way of that ship bearing down on you. A motor may/can save your life. 

Paul T


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I've sculled quite a bit, on dinks and the like. It is the most effective way to move an inflatable in strong winds, especially from the front.
But I wouldn't want it as my only propulsion method, on any boat, unless I wanted to all my boating at the whim of mother nature.
I can just imagine sailing back to the marina after the wind has unexpectedly piped up to 25 to 30 knots and having to anchor outside for a couple of hours/days before it calms enough for me to scull into my slip. Not at all near the top of my list of "must do's".


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I say go for it. I have been using a Yuloh for a year and a half and love it. It will make you a far better sailor. I still haven't perfected the mount but I'm close. Be very careful when entering the through way, I have come head to head with more than one guy leaving the slip under full throttle, it get very interesting.
http://logofthe.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/img_0418.jpg


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

"Our present yacht, Easy Go, is a 34' Junk Rigged Dory Schooner of Jay Benford design. She has no motor and relies entirely on wind, yuloh and kedge anchor for propulsion. We have found, through experimentation, that it is indeed possible to abandon the Internal Combustion Engine for an environmentally superior form of auxiliary propulsion."

Duckworks - The Easy Go Yuloh - Part One


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

newhaul said:


> Sounds great would keep the engine though there are times when you may need power and both hands at the same time for different tasks. (moofie will strike). What are you considering for the lock on the transom?


there is no motor, at present.

either i will machine out a pin or i will use a bicycle trailer hitch. i have read that works well.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Mine has 3 forward speeds, as far as reverse we just shove it out of the slip same as we did when we were engine-less. Here is a mount I really like.
http://logofthe.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/img_1781.jpg


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

dabnis said:


> I have sculled many miles chasing ducks. Sculling a larger boat may work if you have lots of time to get out of the way of that ship bearing down on you. A motor may/can save your life.
> 
> Paul T


little chinese women scull large, heavy boats at a decent clip with a yuloh. i should be able to match the physical endurance....i hope!:laugher

i don't know about evading a big ship. i sail around the inner harbor, in my dinghy. there are some big ships and tugs, there. i keep my distance. the only way i see that being a real problem would be in poor visibility. no wind. can't see very far. yeah. a big boat might sneak up on me, then.

everyone says about a motor being a life saving device, yet there are a good number of folks that sail without them. i always have. i have been looking into a motor but a part of me really hates to go that route, after all of these years as a 'sailing purist'. but, then all the warnings people give me make me doubt my thoughts on that. it just seems to me that, during the age of sail, the waters were teaming with sailing vessels and other non motorized vessels and everyone got along without a motor. it makes me wonder if motors are really such a necessity or are humans just so used to our machines that we think we can't live without them.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

capta said:


> But I wouldn't want it as my only propulsion method, on any boat, unless I wanted to all my boating at the whim of mother nature.


it won't be the only propulsion method. it's got sails, too.



capta said:


> I've sculled quite a bit, on dinks and the like. It is the most effective way to move an inflatable in strong winds, especially from the front.
> 
> I can just imagine sailing back to the marina after the wind has unexpectedly piped up to 25 to 30 knots and having to anchor outside for a couple of hours/days before it calms enough for me to scull into my slip. Not at all near the top of my list of "must do's".


but didn't you just contradict yourself? you said it's the most effective way to move an inflatable in strong winds, yet you wouldn't be able to use it to move a sailboat in strong winds? i would think the inflatable would give you more trouble, in strong winds, than a heavier sailboat. but, i could be wrong. it does happen once in a while. why, i remember this time i was wrong....when was that? ummm....1984 i believe.....:laugher

ahhhh i am in a happy mood. great day of sailing. rum at dinner. sometimes, life can be very good.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

barefootnavigator said:


> I say go for it. I have been using a Yuloh for a year and a half and love it. It will make you a far better sailor. I still haven't perfected the mount but I'm close. Be very careful when entering the through way, I have come head to head with more than one guy leaving the slip under full throttle, it get very interesting.
> http://logofthe.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/img_0418.jpg


see? it's not sailing without a motor that's dangerous. it's the people with motors.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

barefootnavigator said:


> Mine has 3 forward speeds, as far as reverse we just shove it out of the slip same as we did when we were engine-less. Here is a mount I really like.
> http://logofthe.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/img_1781.jpg


you don't scull it backwards?

that looks pretty heavy duty.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I didn't even know you could scull in reverse. She displaces about 8k so not too heavy but handles like a dream in tight spots. I have a stern anchor on a roller ready to launch as brakes but have yet to need it for that pupose.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

i don't know. i am torn. i have always sailed without a motor. when i bought my holiday 20, it came with an outboard. i bartered that motor for something i felt was more useful. never felt sorry for that decision. when i got this boat, i had the intention to keep sailing without a motor. but you read so many posts predicting dire desasters awaiting anyone who has no motor and so many well meaning people advise me to have a motor because they don't want somethi ng bad to happen to me. 

it makes me think that i am, wrong about a motor. that maybe i'm just not being responsible. then, i think, heck, i've been sailing all these years without a motor. why is now different? and people sailed without motors for a looooooong time before the internal combustion engine was even a gleam in anyone's eye....and they didn't crash and die like flies. and i think, why is now different? why am i?

i don't know. i'm torn about the whole thing. if i have an engine, i'd much rather quiet, clean electricity. at least i could avoid te things i hate the most about power boats ( besides their rude owners  ). but do i actually NEED one? am i really risking my vessel without one, any more than i would be risking it with one? i want to be responsible....at least to a degree  but, a huge part of me says that a motor is a betrayal of....well...of sailing, or maybe the spirit of it.

what to do? that's the question? really. that's the question. who would actually ask "to be or not to be?"


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I eventually put a small kicker on my boat not for safety but for convenience. The slip I was in back when I was in a slip was buried deep in a tricky harbor and while it was always easy getting in I was missing too many great days getting out. Last year I used two gallons of fuel and still regularly sail on and off the hook. Hell i even accidentally sailed through a crowded anchorage tiller less one time but that's a whole different story.

Engines rarely make you any safer, seamanship does. I always have a plan A B and C. Last year on one day alone I witnessed 5 collisions in my marina all with engines. People can get them selfs pretty worked up imagining all the things that can happen to you when engine-less but I have to say I sail in a pretty heavy traffic area with lots of current, tankers, ferry's and rocks and day in and day out its the guys with engines sinking their boats. Nothing wrong with having an engine nothing wrong going without.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

i'd love to hear that story!


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

captain jack said:


> it won't be the only propulsion method. it's got sails, too.
> 
> but didn't you just contradict yourself? you said it's the most effective way to move an inflatable in strong winds, yet you wouldn't be able to use it to move a sailboat in strong winds? i would think the inflatable would give you more trouble, in strong winds, than a heavier sailboat. but, i could be wrong. it does happen once in a while. why, i remember this time i ewas wrong....when was that? ummm....1984 i believe.....:laugher


"but didn't you just contradict yourself? Gee, I don't know, an inflatable may weigh a couple of hundred pounds. A sailboat weighs a tiny bit more, don't you think?
"it's got sails, too" Yeah, and you're going to sail into a marina in 25 to 30 knots of wind? Seems you're a much better sailor than I. I'd probably wait it out, if I didn't have an engine.
How do all of you "sailing purists" up in the PNW some how manage to avoid all those high current areas while sculling your boats on windless days. Amazing seamanship, I guess!


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Its actually pretty easy


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

capta said:


> "but didn't you just contradict yourself? Gee, I don't know, an inflatable may weigh a couple of hundred pounds. A sailboat weighs a tiny bit more, don't you think?
> "it's got sails, too" Yeah, and you're going to sail into a marina in 25 to 30 knots of wind? Seems you're a much better sailor than I. I'd probably wait it out, if I didn't have an engine.
> How do all of you "sailing purists" up in the PNW some how manage to avoid all those high current areas while sculling your boats on windless days. Amazing seamanship, I guess!


i was actually thinking that the lighter inflatable would be more prone to being blown by the wind. once the heavier fixed keel sailboat is moving, i'd expect it to keep it's course better.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Here is a quick example of why learning to sail engine-less is so important. My first experience with the San Jaun's was also my first day of being a yacht broker in Wa, they were also a charter company and one of their boats had lost its transmission and had been towed to Friday Harbor. It was the last day of the charter and our company offered to have them towed out so they could sail home but they were not comfortable with it. I volunteered to sail it back and was taken to the airport and flown to Friday Harbor.

Flying over the San Juans was amazing. It was a 44' Beneteau if I remember correctly. I was towed about 300 yards out and left. I sailed it Solo back to its slip about 27 miles away. When I reached the harbor it was blowing over 20 knots I sailed into the harbor and into the slip with no problems. What a beautiful day 

There are a hundred reasons an engine can fail, even on new boats. Having the skills and confidence to go on is very important and a real safety issue.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

barefootnavigator said:


> I didn't even know you could scull in reverse. She displaces about 8k so not too heavy but handles like a dream in tight spots. I have a stern anchor on a roller ready to launch as brakes but have yet to need it for that pupose.
> 
> boat brakes | Art Of Hookie


yeah. if you are sculling forwards, your leading edge is angled down. if you wish to reverse, you angle the leading edge up. instead of holding the oar blade down, the water will try to force it up. you need to resist that, but it's no harder than that. and it works.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

I prefer to sail everywhere however the marina I'm in says I have to motor in and out of the breakwater and yes that's all the motoring I do but I have it in the event of total failure of everything else and oars for when the engine fails ( happened a long time ago took 14 hrs to row from the outer bouy from lake union to Bainbridge island totally windless day)


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

There's more than just sticking an oar over the transom. A yuluo has a very definite curve which takes care of angle of blade to the water The rope takes care of the stroke length and depth of stroke. On the big junks maybe 6 men are on the handle and one bouwses on the rope at the right timing to give the twist curl thrust at the end of each stroke (like in rowing)


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

newhaul said:


> I prefer to sail everywhere however the marina I'm in says I have to motor in and out of the breakwater and yes that's all the motoring I do but I have it in the event of total failure of everything else and oars for when the engine fails ( happened a long time ago took 14 hrs to row from the outer bouy from lake union to Bainbridge island totally windless day)


yeah. some marinas are like that. thankfully, mine is not. at least you had the presence of mind to carry back up oars. it's surprising how many people have no back up. last summer, i was sailing my 9' dinghy on a fairly windy day. i saw this old guy sailing a 15 or 16 foot sloop with his 3 grand kids. they were a way from me. i saw the main drop on them. i kept an eye on them. they were trying to sail in under jib alone but their boat wasn't able to reach that way and they kept getting blown towards the lee shore.

i sailed over to them and he said his sail blew out. turned out it hadn't. the halyard shackle broke. if i had known that, i'd have told him to just rig his jib halyard up to hoist the main. however, i was going to try to tow him in. i did a close sail by and they tossed me their bow line. i asked if it was pretty long. they said it was. by long, i meant long. long enough to clear their bow, clear my stern, and leave me some good slack to build speed before i caught the load. it wasn't. i had maybe 8' of slack.

anyhow, i sailed by and i started to pull their boat. then they statted pulling me! i was being caught and redirected towards the shore. he hadn't doused his jib as i sailed by! well, i couldn't pull him around against his sail pulling him down wind. so, i had to drop his line and do a quick turn to avoid the shore. i wheeled around, luffed up, and unfastened one of my oars. then i sailed by, again, and handed it to one of the kids. he still hadn't doused his jib! it had blown him into the briars on the shore. i yelled to him to get his jib down. why he hadn't i will never know. so, he did and managed to get away from the shore and paddle them back in. i trailed them back to the dock, sailing in circles to keep with them.

here, he took his grand kids, all children, sailing and didn't even have a paddle in case of emergency. the crazy part? his wife told me they used to own a 40' cruising sailboat on the bay. go figure. i never sail without a back up paddle or oar(s).


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Capt Len said:


> There's more than just sticking an oar over the transom. A yuluo has a very definite curve which takes care of angle of blade to the water The rope takes care of the stroke length and depth of stroke. On the big junks maybe 6 men are on the handle and one bouwses on the rope at the right timing to give the twist curl thrust at the end of each stroke (like in rowing)


quite right. i've done quite a bit of research into it, already. of course, some sculling oars are just long oars wthout curves. it's the unique set up of the yuloh which makes it so good. it won't take a team of men to scull my 27 foot sailboat.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

I even carry backup paddles in case the oars fail I also have multiple manual bildge pumps I was a hull tech in the navy and I believe in moofie if it can fail it will do so at the worst time and I'm wanting all the info I can get on this yuloh it would be one more means of moving my little boat out of the way of big ones. 
I can't complain I only pay 220 a month and good security


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Single man stands on one leg and tweaks the rope with other foot. Probably takes some practice,but made easier with restrictive diet of a bit of fish on cupful of rice. Gotta be careful what you give up in the name of simplicity.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

capta said:


> "it's got sails, too" *Yeah, and you're going to sail into a marina in 25 to 30 knots of wind?* Seems you're a much better sailor than I. I'd probably wait it out, if I didn't have an engine.
> How do all of you "sailing purists" up in the PNW some how manage to avoid all those high current areas while sculling your boats on windless days. Amazing seamanship, I guess!


i have to address this.

last spring i was sailing my 9' sprit sail dinghy up at lake Marburg, in Pa. it's a pretty big lake. you get some serious wind and waves, sometimes. it's especially rough in the winter. i know. i sail all winter.

anyhow, it was a tricky day. i had this gut feeling that something was amiss. it wasn't just because the wind was there then gone. high then low. and shifty as all get out. i have sailed on a lot of days like that and thought nothing of it. if a gust gets too high, i ease my sail til the luff loses it's shape and the leech is drawing. you can keep headway while reducing heel that way, or even sit still on the water, head to wind.

it was something else that had my 'spider sense' tingling. so i was very cautious and twice as vigilant. also, rather than sail out to the dam, at the far end of the lake where it's widest, i stayed within eyeshot of the sailor's cove. i just didn't trust it.

i suppose that's why i saw it coming. i was looking out over the water, towards the wind. then, out near the dam, i saw a line of high waves come rocking in my direction. they were a good distance off but moving fast. i knew it was a big blow, so i headed off and made tracks towards the dock.

the wind and waves hit me at the same time. i was on a broad reach. the waves were easily 3 feet high with white caps and curled over like little surfer's waves. my boat has, at the most, 10" of freeboard. only 4" at the transom. a steep 3 foot wave is nothing to sneeze at, especialy coming broadside. i threw my weight out across the weather rail, partially to keep the waves from flipping me, which they were trying mightily to do, and partially to resist the violent heeling force of the wind.

i started the sheet to let the first violent edge of the wind pass me by, then i pulled it back in to where only the last two feet of the leech were drawing. even at that, it was like holding back a team of horses.

whole trees were wipping like grass in a storm. the guy on the ramp, getting his trailered boat ready to go, had to brace himself against his boat because the first violence of the wind almost knocked him over. it was at least 30kts. maybe a little more.

when stuff like that happens, there is nothing for it but to be calm and sail. and, i don't swim so if i didn't keep her upright and sailing, it wouldn't be a minor thing.

by this time, i'd come abreast of the dock, although a dozen yards to the wrong side of it. i pointed up to a beam reach. the wind was blowing right to the dock. i couldn't just go to shore. it would have severely damaged my boat had my rudder hit with that kind of force. it's not a kick up rudder. the ramp was on the side of the dock were i was and i wouldn't have had room to turn up and spill the wind, as i came up to the dock. it's a short dock.

i had to sail past the dock, tack back the way i came, then turn up as i came to the dock. and i did so successfully. i tied up the bow line and the stern line, brailed up the sail, and walked to my truck to wait out the wind. it blew like that for another 15 minutes before calming back down to 15 kts or so. my boat and the dock were bobbing around so violently, on the waves, it looked like something from a movie. the whole thing lasted for around 35 to 40 minutes, i'd say.

light winds, sudden violent squall, and done as quickly as it started. never seen anything like it, up there.

my sprit sail doesn't have reef points, like most cruiser's sails do. i have to use a sort of fisherman's reef to deal with a blow.

i think that, if i can manage to sail my 9' dighy through that kind of wind and sail right back to the dock, properly spilling the wind, someone who knows their boat, in a much larger cruiser with sails you can reef, could possibly sail back to his slip, or at least a slip, in those conditions. you can always occupy 
a different slip and move your boat after you are safely ashore.

i'm not trying to say i'm some great sailor. but i am trying to say your derogatory tone is a little misplaced. you practice diligently and get to know your boat, when the wind is decent, so you can handle her when it's not.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

newhaul said:


> I even carry backup paddles in case the oars fail I also have multiple manual bildge pumps I was a hull tech in the navy and I believe in moofie if it can fail it will do so at the worst time and I'm wanting all the info I can get on this yuloh it would be one more means of moving my little boat out of the way of big ones.
> I can't complain I only pay 220 a month and good security


google. there is a lot of info. there are some good videos on youtube of them being used. i will see if i can link one for you.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Capt Len said:


> Single man stands on one leg and tweaks the rope with other foot. Probably takes some practice,but made easier with restrictive diet of a bit of fish on cupful of rice. Gotta be careful what you give up in the name of simplicity.


hmmm. the way i have seen it done is one hand is on the yuloh, the other is on the line. the hand holding the line leads the stroke. you use body weight to power your strokes. the yuloh, done this way, takes care of angling the blade so you don't have to add the twist like with most sculling oars. it saves effort.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)




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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)




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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Single Oar propulsion - Yuloh, Ro, Scull...

WOODENBOAT NZ Sculling and Yuloh Page Three

TriloBoat Talk: YULOH: The Chinese Sculling Oar

here is some info on yulohs and sculling. it's a good start.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

captain jack said:


> i have to address this.
> 
> last spring i was sailing my 9' sprit sail dinghy up at lake Marburg, in Pa. it's a pretty big lake. you get some serious wind and waves, sometimes. it's especially rough in the winter. i know. i sail all winter.
> 
> ...


I doubt that I'd even think twice about sailing a 9' dink into a marina in 30 odd knots of wind. But when you're talking about 77,000+ pounds of boat, even if I were the world's best sailor, I believe it would be just plain stupid to try. Never mind MY boat, but taking a chance like that and damaging (read quite possibly destroying) several other people's boats, is just not something I would do. I'll anchor and wait it out.
It's not that it can't be done; it's just not very prudent and good seamanship is also prudent seamanship.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Capta your boat displaces 77,000 lbs??? that's not a sailboat its a ship. do share what she is.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

barefootnavigator said:


> Capta your boat displaces 77,000 lbs??? that's not a sailboat its a ship. do share what she is.


Seems he sails a Pearson 530 at 43 k displacement so possible if he has 34 k in equip and gear on board.  :laugher


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Maybe he has a really good wine cellar, i CAN ONLY CARRY 10 CASES ON MY BOAT WHICH IS NEVER ENOUGH  lETS WAIT AND SEE IF HE INVITES US OVER FOR GROG


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Personally I prefer mead


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

barefootnavigator said:


> Capta your boat displaces 77,000 lbs??? that's not a sailboat its a ship. do share what she is.


It's a Pearson 530, a 53' ketch (38 grt, but estimates are 77k actual weight; research for autopilot specs). And yes, we do have an engine, which in the last year we have put less than 20 hours on, in nearly 2500 miles of inter-island (no ocean crossings) sailing. Having doesn't necessarily mean using. We've been to the dock 5 times, 4 for fuel (99% of our fuel use is for the generator) and a haul out.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Does it have to be refrigerated? I'm developing a 5 gallon wine bladder and tap so you don't have to waste glass you just send it to the winery have if filled and sundowners are only a pull away.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

capta said:


> I doubt that I'd even think twice about sailing a 9' dink into a marina in 30 odd knots of wind. But when you're talking about 77,000+ pounds of boat, even if I were the world's best sailor, I believe it would be just plain stupid to try. Never mind MY boat, but taking a chance like that and damaging (read quite possibly destroying) several other people's boats, is just not something I would do. I'll anchor and wait it out.
> It's not that it can't be done; it's just not very prudent and good seamanship is also prudent seamanship.


well, that would explain your feelings on the matter. however, no one is talking about anything that big. heck, my Cal 27 displaces a meager 5400#. i think there is probably a reasonable cut off size where you can't expect to scull a sailboat. i don't know what it is. my boat is definately not past that point but i'm certain yours is. i can, easily, move my boat around with my hands while i'm standing on a rickety finger pier. don't think i could do that with yours.

but that doesn't mean that everyone sailing without a motor is irresponsible or foolish. it's a very viable option within a certain range size. i wouldn't try to scull the (late ) HMS Bounty, either. just too big.

you don't choose to sail a dinghy in 30kts wind ( at least, i don't ). but, stuff happens. you just deal with it when it does.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

If you want something fun to read try Seasteading by Jay Fitzgerald. He sailed his 30k lb 50 loa full keel cutter using a sculling oar for 11 years. never hit anything and he used his boat more than anyone else in the 1200 boat harbor.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

capta said:


> It's a Pearson 530, a 53' ketch (38 grt, but estimates are 77k actual weight; research for autopilot specs). And yes, we do have an engine, which in the last year we have put less than 20 hours on, in nearly 2500 miles of inter-island (no ocean crossings) sailing. Having doesn't necessarily mean using. We've been to the dock 5 times, 4 for fuel (99% of our fuel use is for the generator) and a haul out.


i'm glad you chimed in to this discussion. you bring up an issue that seems to plague threads of the motorless variety.

you don't have to defend how much or how little you use your motor. and no one is insulting your seamanship. motor or no motor is a personal choice. sailing is about enjoying life and the world we live in. there are no rules about how you have to enjoy those things. sailing is also about freedom.

but, every time anyone starts any kind of thread that even brings up the idea of sailing without a motor, you get sailors who use motors getting very upset about the whole idea; often to the point of being insulting to people who choose to sail without motors. i never understood why. and, of course, the motorless people get riled up because no one likes to be told they are irresponsible, foolish, or stupid. it usually ends up a big argument instead of a rational discussion.

i understand, now. if you hadn't posted, i'd still not understand the reason such threads deteriorate in such a feeling of hostility.

the thing is, when i make a thread or post discussing my feelings, thoughts, or plans about sailing with a motor, i'm only talking about what i like, what i want, and what i need. i'm not making any statements about anyone else; whether they use a motor or not.

if you have a motor, it doesn't make you less of a sailor.

admittedly, if you do not possess the skills to sail a sailboat to and from a regular dock ( as compared to a tight slip ), in normal conditions, you need to learn those skills....for your own safety. and, you would not believe how many people i have seen thay come, careening down wind, towards a dock with their girlfriend or wife standing on the bow, waiting to stop the boat with their feet. but, no one is implying that you are like that, just because you choose to have a motor.

having a motor says absolutely nothing abot your sailing skills anymore than having a fulring jib does. it's a piece of equipment. it's like a coffee maker. some people have one in their house and some people don't. personal choice.

personally, it's this animousity that makes me torn about my choice with this boat. i have lot's of rational points about the pluses and the cons of each choice. i have assessed my skill levels and have decided that my previous experience gives me the confidence to come to a rational decision. i make that decision and then.....

i read some impassioned plea from some guy who swears that not having a motor is the road to certain doom. usually, it's a plea that doesn't stand up under logical review, but the emotion, certainty, and passion of the plea....the fact that he's usually way more than willing to insult the intelligence or morality of anyone that doesn't heed his warning....well....it makes you doubt yourself.

it would be really awesome if, at least once, there could be a balanced, rational didscussion about the issue. a discission without anyone attacking anyone else or feeling they need to defend themselves from attack. a discussion that put all of the issies relating to that choice in a logical, ratonal
discussion that a person could use as an aid to making the best choice for themselves.

in your case, for instance, i wouldn't expect you to be sculling a boat that size. and i certainly wouldn't think any worse of you if you have a motor. but, from your first post, you have defended your choice as if i'd said you weren't a real sailor if you have a motor. i didn't see that, when i read your first post. it was the subsiquent discussion that made me realize it. i don't think i said that sailing with a motor for back up made you less of a sailor. if i implied it, somehow, i apologize. i didn't mean to.

everyone has different concerns and different desires. for instance, when discussing a 9' dinghy in 30 kt wind, you and i have different concerns. you base your thoughts on the fact that a 9' dinghy, if it gets away from you, won't cause property damage. mine are based on the thought that i am not overly crazy about the idea of drowning. i don't swim. my dinghy has no reef points. it can easly capsize, if i mess up, and that would put me in an alien, hostile environment where i most definately do not have the skills required for survival. to me, if i am in a bigger boat ( one of a medium range, let's say ), i can reef sail, which adds safety while still allowing you to sail. and, to me, a keel boat, like my Cal, has far less chance of drowning me than my 100# unbalasted dinghy. i have never even been in a situation where i was really concerned about capsize in my holiday 20. it's a centerboard boat that handles like a cruiser. i would think that this Cal, with it's fixed keel and heavy ballast ( i know. that's a matter of perspective  ), will be even more safe than my holiday. that's my perspective. and it's a valid one...at least it is, to me.

does that make your perspective less valid? no. it's just my perspective. heck, you probably know how to swim!:laugher plus, maybe you wouldn't be on a 9' dinghy in freezing temps. yesterday, while i was sailing, i was crunching through floating patches of very thin ice. i have sailed my dinghy past heavy ice flows, before. i don't have special gear to keep me warm, in the advent of a capsize, and hypothermia doesn't care if you can swim. so, i am more concerned with dying and less concerned with property damage. if i was on a boat your size, i'd probably be much more concerned with property damage and far less concerned with capsize. even if i hit something with this 'little' Cal 27, i'm not going to cause that much damage. your boat is another story.

that's the thing. we all have a different set of circumstances and a different perspective( the word for today, kids, is 'perspective'...) . there is no right answer or wrong one. there is just personal choice. the right answer for me might be a totally wrong answer for you.

i think all motorless threads need to come with a disclaimer stating that.


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

I have had to sail back to my slip three times. Once, I simply ran out of gas and had no choice. What would have normally taken twenty minutes took more than two hours. But, at the end, I gain considerable confidence in knowing that I could, indeed, SAIL MY BOAT BACK HOME. The second time, I mixed my fuel too rich and didn't want to foul the engine, so I sailed back again. The third time the engine just gave up the ghost. I was drinking with friends at the Turtle Club in Seabrook, TX anbd we had a nice, slow, leisurely, evening sail back to my slip. All three were at the height of summer sailing season and I did not manage to kill anyone or damage any property.
I think for most people it simply comes down to time. My slip now is a good 45 minute motor to open ocean. Under sail it's more like 2.5 - 3.0 hours BOTH WAYS. So, it's simply not practical to go engineless. Although I applaud thos that choose to go that route.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

captain jack
I agree almost entirely with what you've posted here. My one concern with those who sail engine-less by choice, is the damage/injury factor. Perhaps, I do not consider the size of many of the posters' boats and for that I'm sorry. I have sailed to a dock (not necessarily my dock, but a convenient dock) when absolutely necessary, but only when there was no other possibility. If a commercial tow is available, it would always be my first choice, in anything but ideal conditions, in anything larger than about 18 feet. Over the past 50+ years I have witnessed many, many injuries and damaged boats from folks trying to get their boat to an inappropriate dock under sail, and not all these boats were 30+ feet. Broken fingers, hands, arms, legs, feet, etc. all totally unnecessary injuries.
It takes an amazing amount of skill and even more luck, IMO, to successfully dock a boat under sail or by sculling, consistently, in anything other than ideal conditions. I do not understand why anyone would want to take that risk continuously, not to mention that if they can't afford an engine, then quite possibly they don't have insurance, for the other boat(s), at least.
When we sail to anchor, which we do almost every time we anchor, we do not sail through the anchorage, but anchor outside the pack. It's not that we can't, but why would we want to? I don't think it would make any difference if we were sailing a 30 footer, either. If one sails enough, there are plenty of difficult situations from which one must extricate oneself, without creating them, needlessly.
I think my opposition to many of the engineless/sculling posts is that they might give others, who do not have the talent, experience or luck, the idea that anyone can do it, or should try it. I've seen numerous posts asking when should they, or could they, sail to their dock. Of course the answer might be that if you are asking the question, you aren't ready, I think.
So, for my part, I would ask that anyone sailing engineless, please don't do it around our boat. Even if you have insurance, I'd rather not take the time out from sailing, to repair any damage you might do to our boat.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Ill put some simple thoughts here and they aren't directed at anyone but posted for everyone. First and foremost don't ever tell me or any other sailor that you have more of a right to any given body of water than the next guy. The number one most ignorant and rude statement on this forum is if you don't use your boat the way I want you to then don't sail by me.

Lets talk about sailing first off I would bet that 90% of the readers here have never been in 30 knots of wind let alone tried to dock in them. I for one have docked many times in 30 knots and its unsafe period. I get the idea that lots of people here think we are trying to dock in a down wind slip flying a chute in 30 knots its ridicules. It takes great skill to dock and sail in general in tight situations under sail power, in my 27 years of sailing most of it working on the waterfront I have never once seen an engine-less crash or accident. By contrast I have seen hundreds of guys with engines doing some of the most unbelievably stupid crap imaginable. It takes a special person to sail sans engine and most have earned that ability with literally thousands of hours at sea. There is no right or wrong but Id like to see you contact every sailing club in america and tell them to cancel their youths sailing programs because the boats don't have engines. If you go back to the beginning we were all taught engine-less. I know my skill level and speaking only for myself I can tell you that I can sail in and out of the slip better that most people in my old marina could with an engine. Lets for once on here try and focus on the thread and stop bashing people for having skills and using them.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

capta said:


> It takes an amazing amount of skill and even more luck, IMO, to successfully dock a boat under sail or by sculling, consistently, in anything other than ideal conditions.


This depends heavily on the size of the boat. It would be difficult to do so on your 77k ketch. I teach sailing on ~1000lb keel boats and those boats have no motor, so we teach how to sail back to the dock. Most students dock their first time (with a lot of guidance) after having less than 2 hours of sailing instruction. Hundreds of students pass that class every year, and impact incidents are quite minor. Empirically those boats can be docked under sail quite safely.

There are a number of boats in my marina in the 5000-10000lb size category which are motorless. I haven't heard of any docking accidents related to these boats. Most have a yuloh.

My boat does have a motor, but I sail into my slip motorless once in a while for practice. It is important to practice in good conditions so that I can use it if necessary in poor conditions. One of my good friends also has a motorless Yankee 30 (that is a roughly 10,000lb boat) that I sail on from time to time. We've docked it in high winds and in a ghosting wind. I'm pretty sure he hasn't hit anything while docking.

Since he docks this way every time he is probably better at docking under sail than he would be under motor.

The major downside of having a motor-less sailboat is that you need to be prepared to move slowly when the winds are light. A yuloh will get a 10k lb boat moving at 1-2 knots pretty well, but you won't get the boat home at 6 knots. Likewise if the conditions won't allow sailing into the slip you need to be prepared to anchor out and wait for conditions to improve.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

I do it all the time and I resent the notion that people that do it engineless don't have insurance I have both but I just like to know I can make landfall without the engine if needed and I for one like to practice all the time I think every sailor should be able to do it. Not necessarily to their slip but at least to the breakwater or outer dock In case of engine failure.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Really, we're all just one start button push, and one "oh, ****" from being engineless.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

newhaul said:


> I do it all the time and I resent the notion that people that do it engineless don't have insurance


Our marine requires insurance, but does not require an engine. I assume that this is true at many others (I know some do require an engine).


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

if we can pare the hysteria and hyperbole away from both sides of the argument, a case can be made for sculling.
and a case can be made for the limits of sculling. 
Just as a case can be made for the limits of an auxiliary engine. 


But the logic is irrefutable. Having an engine does not preclude sculling. One can scull a boat with an engine. As has been noted, using an engine is a choice.
But, not having an engine removes that option. Not having an engine precludes anything BUT sculling as auxiliary propulsion. Personally, I like having as many options as possible. IMO it can open up more cruising grounds, more harbours, more destinations.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

capta said:


> captain jack
> I agree almost entirely with what you've posted here. My one concern with those who sail engine-less by choice, is the damage/injury factor. Perhaps, I do not consider the size of many of the posters' boats and for that I'm sorry. I have sailed to a dock (not necessarily my dock, but a convenient dock) when absolutely necessary, but only when there was no other possibility. If a commercial tow is available, it would always be my first choice, in anything but ideal conditions, in anything larger than about 18 feet. Over the past 50+ years I have witnessed many, many injuries and damaged boats from folks trying to get their boat to an inappropriate dock under sail, and not all these boats were 30+ feet. Broken fingers, hands, arms, legs, feet, etc. all totally unnecessary injuries.
> It takes an amazing amount of skill and even more luck, IMO, to successfully dock a boat under sail or by sculling, consistently, in anything other than ideal conditions. I do not understand why anyone would want to take that risk continuously, not to mention that if they can't afford an engine, then quite possibly they don't have insurance, for the other boat(s), at least.
> When we sail to anchor, which we do almost every time we anchor, we do not sail through the anchorage, but anchor outside the pack. It's not that we can't, but why would we want to? I don't think it would make any difference if we were sailing a 30 footer, either. If one sails enough, there are plenty of difficult situations from which one must extricate oneself, without creating them, needlessly.
> I think my opposition to many of the engineless/sculling posts is that they might give others, who do not have the talent, experience or luck, the idea that anyone can do it, or should try it. I've seen numerous posts asking when should they, or could they, sail to their dock. Of course the answer might be that if you are asking the question, you aren't ready, I think.


i think you hit on some really good points, here. not about your choices. obviously, any points you make about your choices will be good. you make your choices. so, who better to explain them?  seriously, though, i think you make some good points about skill levels. i always have sailed my 20' sloop to and from the dock. never had a problem, and that dock is really too small. it can't be more than 15 feet long and 8 feet wide.

but, before i ever bought that boat, i sailed my 9' dinghy every day. i always did everything i could to test and advance my skills, and still do. i also read everything i can, regarding sailing skills. i watch any youtube videos that have to do with sailing skills. there is a lot of repetition of info, but you discover jems, sometimes. on my own, a decade ago, i discovered a way to help my dinghy get through a tack, in really light airs. last year, i was watching videos on youtube and discovered Laser sailors doing a similar thing and calling it roll tacking. ypu have to constantly work to learn and become, in this life, or you fade away.

anyhow, before i bought my holiday20, i already knew how to sail to and from a dock and had done it in all kinds of conditions. so, i was ready ( and confident ) to do it with a boat twice as big. and, i hope to put all my cumulative knowledge to use with this Cal 27 and, gain even more knowledge as i sail it.

i have seen all kinds of people, that i know have been sailing for years, who approach the dock, on a run, with their girlfriend or wife poised on the bow to stop the boat, with their feet, before it hits the dock. i have even tried to give such people tips on how to do it the rifght way but, most don't want to hear it. they get offended by the implication that they aren't doing it right. i think that those kinds of people shouldn't sail. if you are too childish to want to learn to do something that you don't know how to do, but do, you shouldn't do that thing.

i think you are, perhaps, right. maybe, when pro no motor posts are made, there should be the admonition that it takes skill and that such skill needs to be developed before it can be undertaken safely.

i can't tell you how msany approaches i made to various docks, with that 9' dinghy, while i was teaching myself how to sail. but i wanted to get it right. it's worth the work and the time to learn the skills. but, as you point out, if a person isn't willing to learbn those skillsa, or can't learn them, he shouldn't put himself in a situation to need them.

then again, isn't all sailing like that, really?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

bljones said:


> if we can pare the hysteria and hyperbole away from both sides of the argument, a case can be made for sculling.
> and a case can be made for the limits of sculling.
> Just as a case can be made for the limits of an auxiliary engine.
> 
> ...


good post.

you know, you always have that disdainful look on your face....oh....wait. that's not your picture. it's one of those little guys from that animated movie. sorry. my mistake


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

No, that is the look on my face.


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

Alex W said:


> Our marine requires insurance, but does not require an engine. I assume that this is true at many others (I know some do require an engine).


Long Beach City Harbors do not allow sailing in to your slip. But, I'm convinced that this has more to do with trying to keep the riff-raff out than any actual concern for safety.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

barefootnavigator said:


> It takes a special person to sail sans engine and most have earned that ability with literally thousands of hours at sea.


i think this is an astute observation. i don't think there are any green sailors, who haven't mastered some decent sailing skills, that look at a 30 foot keelboat ands say," that's a piece of cake. i can sail that into a tight slip. no problem."

even after 18 years of sailing, with all my obsessive desire to bathe in every bit of sailing knowledge i can find and push my skills, i look at my new boat, which really isn't that much bigger thsn my hiloday, and i consider my skills and realize the new callenges it will provide me. i have scoured the net for any additional wisdom, i msy find, to help me deal with those challenges. and, despite my confidence in my ability, all the doom and gloom you find, in motorless sailing threads, gives me momentary doubts. so, i really can't see someone, who doesn't have the necessary basic sailing skills ( and i do consider those skills to be necessary and basic for sailing any boat ), reading those threads and not realizing it will take skill and knowledge to sail a boat motorless.

actually, although i joke around about any idiot being able to use a boat with a motor ( and the camoflaged rdednecks in their johnboats do support that thoughgt ), it takes real skill, learning, and practice to use a motor, in a bigger sailboat ( anything 20' and over ), to maneuver that boat into and out of a tight slip...skills i will have to learn if i do decide to put a motor on my Cal.

see, i have never used a motor on a boat, before. ever. for me, to motor my boat in tight spots is as daunting as sailing to Japan, from Maryland.

i agree with the sentiment that boaters with motors do really stupid things. that's the nature of people with their machines. machines make us feel invincable. i remember the other year, when all those yuppie women were into buying 4WD SUVs. then we had that blizzard. there were yuppies, in SUVs, stranded all over the raods. they thought their machines made them invincable. that they could go anywhere with ease. never a thought that it might take skill to drive an SUV in a blizzard or that 4WDs aren't any better on ice than 2WDs. machines make humans get stupid.

if you sail without a motor to save your bacon, you think more about what you are doing, before you do it. it's like helmets and seatbelts. they go around telling people that they will save your life. then they force them on us, by law. then the accident rate goes up because people THINK they are safe and don't bother thinking about what they are doing.

i think it's bad to give new sailors the idea that a motor is a safety device that will save you in a pinch. not that they can't, sometimes. but, if a new guy goes out thinking he is safe because he has a motor, he is more likely to do things that will put him at risk, without consideration, and then find out that the motor can't save him or that it chose that very minute to break down.

it's about as silly as programming a drone, with weapons, to decide who is the enemy and who is not. have they never used a computer before? man. computers have more errors and failures than any other type of machine. it'll be interesting to see what happens when a drone, patrolling America, has a malfunction and kills some innocent civilians.

never trust a machine without some sort of back up or safety plan, in place.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm sure you have heard of the engine-less delivery's all over the Salish Sea. They are popping up in San Fran also. People will pay more to have their goods delivered without the use of fossil fuels, well other that everything it took to make the boat and... For me I can sail anything into the slip in a pinch but my comfort level is about the size I sail. When I say comfort level I should admit that I'm on Defcon 5 at all times in the inner harbor under sail.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

barefootnavigator said:


> I'm sure you have heard of the engine-less delivery's all over the Salish Sea. They are popping up in San Fran also. People will pay more to have their goods delivered without the use of fossil fuels, well other that everything it took to make the boat and... For me I can sail anything into the slip in a pinch but my comfort level is about the size I sail. When I say comfort level I should admit that I'm on Defcon 5 at all times in the inner harbor under sail.


it makes sense to be at Defcon 5 *at all times*. disaster can happen anytime and it usually happens when we are least expecting it and are, thus, unprepared.

of course, tight places with lots of morons, and other people, are the obvious places where disaster may happen. it's natural to be more careful when it seems more risky. i think that explains why most car accidents happen when people are close to home. they think there is less risk, close to home, and aren't prepared when fit hits the shan.

not that i'm saying that is what you do. i sincerely doubt you do. and i understand what you were getting at, in your post, but i thought this was a good point to make and a good opportunity to make it.

oh. one other thing. are you saying i might be able to earn money with my boat?


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I don't remember the link but I'm sure you can Google search it, Geeves could have definitely found it


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

i was sort of joking, but if i can earn a few extra bucks while sailing....that's not a bad deal.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

ericb760 said:


> Long Beach City Harbors do not allow sailing in to your slip. But, I'm convinced that this has more to do with trying to keep the riff-raff out than any actual concern for safety.


One of the coolest things I remember from living in Annapolis, was being downtown, and watching the racing boats, some of them quite big, sailing down to the end of Ego Alley, turning around, and sailing back out.

I was sitting at Phillips one day with a large power yacht owner, who got mad when we watched one doing it, saying, "They are just showing off."

I said, "Yeah. And, well."


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

I'm with barefoot. Read my post #945 in "low buck projects". It might help. It was gold for me when building my yuloh. Read Slieve's article. You won't regret making a yuloh and don't worry about the nay sayers,when they see you coming, they'll get out of your way.


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

Capt Len said:


> There's more than just sticking an oar over the transom. A yuluo has a very definite curve which takes care of angle of blade to the water The rope takes care of the stroke length and depth of stroke. On the big junks maybe 6 men are on the handle and one bouwses on the rope at the right timing to give the twist curl thrust at the end of each stroke (like in rowing)


If you can get a copy of G.W.G Worcester's book "The junks and sampans of the yangtze", you can read a lot more about what you wrote. It's a remarkable study.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

A Jeanneau Tonic 23. Sculling thole pin mounted to transom from the factory. It is a French boat. Insert "in case the motor surrenders?" joke here


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Andrew65 said:


> I'm with barefoot. Read my post #945 in "low buck projects". It might help. It was gold for me when building my yuloh. Read Slieve's article. You won't regret making a yuloh and don't worry about the nay sayers,when they see you coming, they'll get out of your way.


that's funny. i posted the 'yuloh, zhajiajoa, china' video on here, too.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

bljones said:


> A Jeanneau Tonic 23. Sculling thole pin mounted to transom from the factory. It is a French boat. Insert "in case the motor surrenders?" joke here


that's pretty cool. obviously they think sculling is pretty effective.

good joke, too


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Andrew65 said:


> I'm with barefoot. Read my post #945 in "low buck projects". It might help. It was gold for me when building my yuloh. Read Slieve's article. You won't regret making a yuloh and don't worry about the nay sayers,when they see you coming, they'll get out of your way.


How's this for 'low bucks'?

 $10 Yuloh


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> How's this for 'low bucks'?
> 
> $10 Yuloh


yeah. i saw that while i was doing research about sculling. low bucks for sure.


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

captain jack said:


> that's funny. i posted the 'yuloh, zhajiajoa, china' video on here, too.


I must of watched that one a thousand times for details. The old guy at 15 seconds into the video got to be a local because of his posture. I can't find it, but there are videos 
Of woman singing while yulohing. Scarey women you don't want as a wife.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Andrew65 said:


> I must of watched that one a thousand times for details. The old guy at 15 seconds into the video got to be a local because of his posture. I can't find it, but there are videos
> Of woman singing while yulohing. Scarey women you don't want as a wife.


:laugher that's funny. it's good that you make that distinction because i *really* like Asian women. wouldn't want to get some sort of shock if i see one of those videos. i'd be expecting Zhang Ziyi and as the video begins and i see the person at the oar.......it might be too much for the brain to handle. years of therapy


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

captain jack said:


> :laugher that's funny. it's good that you make that distinction because i *really* like Asian women. wouldn't want to get some sort of shock if i see one of those videos. i'd be expecting Zhang Ziyi and as the video begins and i see the person at the oar.......it might be too much for the brain to handle. years of therapy


Lol, let me define that a bit better. I like asian women too. The one in the video seems nice enough, but also looks and sounds like she could verbally rip you a new one if she got mad at you. That's what l meant as scary. For the yuloh value, it is a good video too. Good detail.


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

manatee said:


> How's this for 'low bucks'?
> 
> $10 Yuloh


Good find,he points out something important. The pivot point and how important it is to get right. It's....uh...pivotal. When the snow melts, I'll put mine on and take some pictures to post.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Andrew65 said:


> Lol, let me define that a bit better. I like asian women too. The one in the video seems nice enough, but also looks and sounds like she could verbally rip you a new one if she got mad at you. That's what l meant as scary. For the yuloh value, it is a good video too. Good detail.


i thought you might also like asian women, or else i doubt you'd have inserted the part about not being the type you'd want for a wife. when you said scary, i thought you meant scary looking.


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

Zhou Zhuang china visit video 1/2 , 2/2 on youtube

There you captain jack, take her home to mom. She's a keeper. The interesting part in both parts is the lanyard just above the pivot. Watch for it. Her boat is the only one I've seen this on. Maybe barefoot can answer it. ls it for retaining? I'm puzzled.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Andrew65 said:


> Zhou Zhuang china visit video 1/2 , 2/2 on youtube
> 
> There you captain jack, take her home to mom. She's a keeper. The interesting part in both parts is the lanyard just above the pivot. Watch for it. Her boat is the only one I've seen this on. Maybe barefoot can answer it. ls it for retaining? I'm puzzled.


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

Excellent! Throughout the videos, you see the landyard, but in the second at 1:38, her yuloh hops off her pivot, l think the lanyard is there to assist to put it back on when needed. Any other ideas?

Thanks for uploading it captain jack!


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Andrew65 said:


> Excellent! Throughout the videos, you see the landyard, but in the second at 1:38, her yuloh hops off her pivot, l think the lanyard is there to assist to put it back on when needed. Any other ideas?
> 
> Thanks for uploading it captain jack!


no problem. i think Barefoot has a strap set up to keep that from happening. i think that, perhaps, her lanyard is to keep that from happening, when moving in reverse. but i could be wrong.


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

After cahogitating a bit, I think it is to not let the yuloh slip off the stern when it falls off the ball. She simply lifts it up and then back on like she did in the video. I know that it is a bear when that happens to me. I think I`ll attached a lanyard in the spring to check that out. Either that or take a trip to have a chat with her. 

I hope that those tourists tipped her well. She worked hard for her money. That certainly doesn`t look like her first rodeo on that yuloh. That`s one impressive tough old bird.


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

...either that to take up most of the weight imposed on the main lanyard so it isn`t so heavy for her to manhandle...or maybe a little bit of both.


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

Ureka! Now I fully understand her rig! It all happens between 1:33 and 1:40 in the second video. Her yuloh twists off to the left, it falls off the ball and then you see her lift it up, put it back on and then jam it down with a thunk. It happens quick, but it`s revealing. It`s sitting in some type of slotted shoe instead of a drilled out hole to take a ball or pin. That also explains why she, and others, can lay it so far over to the side when they swing on it. Of course the top of her pin has to have some kind of head on it because that`s how it`s retained. Guessing they don`t have a West Marine in the neighborhood for exact parts, I`ll guess that they have a heavy duty woodscrew with a rounded head or a ball welded on a pin somehow.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Andrew65 said:


> Ureka! Now I fully understand her rig! It all happens between 1:33 and 1:40 in the second video. Her yuloh twists off to the left, it falls off the ball and then you see her lift it up, put it back on and then jam it down with a thunk. It happens quick, but it`s revealing. It`s sitting in some type of slotted shoe instead of a drilled out hole to take a ball or pin. That also explains why she, and others, can lay it so far over to the side when they swing on it. Of course the top of her pin has to have some kind of head on it because that`s how it`s retained. Guessing they don`t have a West Marine in the neighborhood for exact parts, I`ll guess that they have a heavy duty woodscrew with a rounded head or a ball welded on a pin somehow.


i don't know about the slot thing. i can't get that much detail out of it. i tried watching that moment a dozen times. all i can get is that it fell to the deck with a thud and she picked it up and set it down on the pin.

the pin would have to have a head, most likely a ball. otherwise you wouldn't be able to lean it very much at all. i don't quite understand what you mean by a 'shoe' though. i am guessing you mean a slot rather than a hole. i don't think that is viable, however, because it would have slop and the pin would slide from one end of the slot to the other, as you 'rowed' with it. a pivot point needs to be centered or it causes the object resting on it to be oddly balanced.

i'm still thinking the lanyard is to hold the shaft down, when you scull backwards. there would have to be something to hold it down because, while the water pushes the blade down when sculling forwards, it pushes up on it when you scull backwards. this requires upwards resistance, at your hands, to keep the blade in the water. if you have nothing to hold the oar down, at the pivot point, you wouldn't be able to keep the blade in the water.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

at around 5:35, in the first video, you get a really good view of the pin. two things i think are important about the set up. first, other than that lanyard, there is no strap of any sort to hold the oar down. Barefoot, for instance, has a strap that passes over the oar ( even though he apparently doesn't use it in reverse ).

the second thing is the pin, itself. for one thing, it is not a crude bolt, of some sort. it is a very well made piece. quite polished, too. and, as the oar reaches the end of each pass, the ball at the top is *completely exposed*. now, either the hole that it fits in is very shallow, indeed, or there is more to that pin than just an upright with a ball at the end.

perhaps it's some sort of swivel joint, as in a swivel socket. however, i don't think so because you'd think a part of the joint would be visible to reaveal it's 'mechanical' nature. if it's not 'mechanical', i'd say that the hole, the pin fits in, is shallow, allowing the oar to rotate to extreme angles without the sides of the hole hitting the shaft and dislodging the oar. if that is so, the yuloh is using the resistance of the water, and her pull on the left hand lanyard, to hold it to the pin. this would require skill and dligence to work because, if you didn't have the right motion, the oar would slide off of the pin. if you look at the second vdeo, when the oar falls off of the pin, it is right after she was chatting and stopped for a drink. she wasn't maintaining the right stroke to keep the oar from falling off.

anyhow, that's the theory i am suggesting. i could be totally off base. anyone have her phone number and speak mandarin?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

if you watch the zhujiajoa video, you wll notice that guy does not have the extra lanyard. instead, he has a strap, like Barefoot does.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

there is an article on bahaman style sculling that applies, here. i will have to find it. anyhow, bahaman sculling has the oar sitting in a very shallow notch or no notch at all. the writer of the aricle was amazed at the sculler's abitiy to scull with no notch at all and, yet, keep the shaft of the oar fixed in the same exact place on the transom as if it was tied. the arthor was an experienced sculler from luisiana but, he couldn't do it. it's all in the stroke. i am sure it's the same with these chinese sculler's. i think the hole, the pin fits in, is fairly shallow. it would have to be, to allow the ball at the tip of the pin to be exposed like it is in that video. and, i am sure that these skilled people, like their bahamian counterparts, keep the oar in place by the skill of their sculling.

anyhow, the writer says that, in order to scull the boat in reverse, you have to lash the oar, somehow, at the pivot point. i will see if i can get you a link.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Sculling

this is just a good article about sculling. it's not the one i was looking for. still looking.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

How to Scull

this is it!

right from the beginning of the article:

""Notch" snorted Robbie Weatherford as he swept up an oar from the float. "Ye don't need a notch if ye do it right!" With that he thrust the Oar over the side of the float we were standing and began a vigorous twiddling with it that sent wavelets breaking into the mangrove roots ,just beyond. I could feel the float depress under the force of' his oar. As he yanked it back and forth while demonstrating how a sculling oar should be handled, the loom of that oar stayed right where he'd placed it on the edge of the float, There was no notch or crack or anything there to keep it put."


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

I agree and disagree, but watch it again. Just before it falls with a thud, it leaned far over to port hoping it off its pin (or ball), when she puts it back on, she lifts it up and sets it down (that action would indicate a ball and hole rig she puts the yuloh on, yes), now look for her giving it the setting motion of jamming it aft for 1 second (1:39). The jamming is only for an inch or so, but it`s a vital clue for how she keeps it on. There is no way she (or others) can lay her yuloh over so far from side to side and not have it slip off any other way. That indicates she is setting it in place in some sort of slot. Yes, slot is a better word, but the slot is in line with the yuloh and not perpendiclular which would give you the slop you wrote about, I agree. If the slot is in line, there would be no slop because it is always on its pivot point. Maybe just a little though because there will always be friction and shearing there that could eventually eat through the pinhead which is a weak point. The in line slot I mean would look like an old fashion keyhole with a larger opening to take the pinhead and then a straight thinner section for the yuloh to slide over and then down onto as seen in the video at that time, but not let the pinhead come out. I agree, you do see the exposed ball in the video. Maybe she is using a combination of what we are talking about. A shallow indenture for the ball, but with a raised retaining slot (keyway) to keep the ball attached to the yuloh. It`s baffling to see how much play she gets with so much ball exposed for me too. We see the ball, but since the resolution on my computer isn`t good enough, I can`t see clear detail. Check out 3:40 in the second video. There is a good shot too. If you made a sacrificial block lashed to the yuloh, you could experiment with the idea and not chew up your yuloh. If you didn`t like it, chuck the block and start over again with something else.

You can forget sculling backwards with a yuloh. It can`t be done and ain`t gonna happen. It`s too big and not built for it. Slieve in his websight The Junk Rig Association - HOME gives quiet an accurate description for the theory of the yuloh even though he admits never building one himself. Take a look at it. The blade is shaped to always want to dig down in the water with each stroke, thus giving it forward propulsion. It holds itself down when underway by design and proper swinging technique. The technique isn`t difficult to master. 20 minutes of instruction and you are good to go. You just have to know when to limit each stroke and that is learned by feel and experience.

I`ve chatted with Ben Fuller on woodenboatforum.com and read his articles too. He understands the theory, but it is slightly different than sculling. He admits it. His point is that a yuloh is like very low gear in a 4X4 for straight driving over a long distance while a sculling oar is for small boats needing maneuverability. He`s right. I also have Worcester`s book on yulohs. It`s a good read and worth getting your hands on if you can. In it you get all kinds of tips, tricks, and insight.

The lower extra lanyard I really do believe is to simply stop it from the sliding off the stern when it jumps off the ball. I don`t think it is to hold it down, maybe a little though so I`ll give you that, because of its attachment point is so far forward on the boat to where the upper lanyard is located. It is an optional device. She looks tough, but she`s no spring chicken and maybe not strong enough to manhandle it onboard again if it slides off into the drink being its only attached to the boat by the swinging line. It has happened to me and is a pain in the butt to put back on in one motion without some sort of retaining device. Her`s is a lanyard, Barefoot`s is a strap. Many have neither. Very few yulohs in these videos have retaining straps or lanyards. Why not is a good question.

To me, it all makes sense now because of her one little momentary mishap. That pivot point connection has baffled me for quite some time as well as being able to hold it in place. I`ve tried retaining straps, no straps, and pins on the side of the main pin to limit the layover. All work to some degree, but I still don`t get the action they get in the videos. I`m close though.

Now I really can wait until the weather breaks to get busy experimenting again!


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

check this out. this guy leans his yuloh over as far as that chinese womwn and he has no strap or lanyard. he doesn't have the same bend in his yuloh, though.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

i have a few questions. normal sculling oars can be used in reverse to move a vessel backwards. any idea why the yuloh will not work this way? i suppose a person would need two sculling oars. a yuloh for distance and a bahaman for maneuvering. one other question. everything you read about the yuloh seems to be experimental. they think it works like this. they think it's built like this. they still use yulohs in china and other asian countries. how come no one actually knows about them? why all the guesswork?


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

Good video and good questions.

With using a sculling, you can reverse the blade angle and swing it the same to get the action. You can`t With a yuloh, it`s fixed.

Isn`t everything experimental? No two yulohs are alike and always under improvement, just like sailors, but then what do I know, I`m just a guy With a boat swinging on his yuloh.

I`d be interested too to read or see about how someone went to these water towns JUST to study their yulohs. What a great thesis for someone! There is basic theory out there. It then comes Down to personal design and adaptability to the boat in question. Manatee has some good ideas too. Pick his brain also. 

Worcester`s book is a good read, try to get a hold of it.

So captain Jack, when are you going build Yours? You have a lot of good working ideas from several of Your contributors to Your thread.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

going to start the design process this weekend. figure out the dimensions i need and stuff. it will give me something to work on while the weather is too bad to actually do much on the boat. 

went down to the boat, today, to make sure the new hatch, i am constructing, is going to fit ok. it is bitter out on the water, today. blustry and cold. funny that i will be sailing monday. but they are calling for perfect winds and it won't be too cold. a high of 49. 

i want to get the yuloh ( and the bahaman sculling oar, too ) done before the boat is done. that way i have practice before i need to do it, if you know what i mean.

going to try to keep the yuloh as close to the chinese ones, as possible. no reason to mess with a good design or reinvent the wheel.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

i think the guy in the last video i posted had a good idea. it appears he used a wheelbarrow handle to construct his yuloh. that's a good idea because they are strong and not prone to warpage. i don't like where he put the bend in it, though. according to what i have read, for a larger boat the bend should be closer to the hands, rather than at the pivot or lower than the pivot. notice he has to turn the oar, himself. he also doesn't use the lanyard. i would. it's necessary to get the full benefit of the yuloh design.


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

Ah grasshopper...you are on your chosen path. When you can walk on the rice paper without leaving a trace, then you will be ready to leave the temple of sailnet.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Andrew65 said:


> Ah grasshopper...you are on your chosen path. When you can walk on the rice paper without leaving a trace, then you will be ready to leave the temple of sailnet.


:laugher:laugher:laugher


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

Hehehe...Thought you might like that. Keep us posted on how you make out with it and what you discover along the way about the connection with yuloh and pin.


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## Aneblanc (Nov 14, 2012)

captain jack said:


> [How to Scull[/url]


Thank you very much for the article. I had seen it already but lost it.

I scull my boat with a slightly bent 16' long oar made up from a 2x4x16 with a 2x4x12 glued on top and shaped so that the bottom of the sweep is straight while the top is curved. The blade has 2 strips of wood glued on the edges to make it 5½" wide. 
The oarlock is made from a piece of 1x3/16 steel bent in a loop and welded to a ½"bolt. The oarlock sits about 4' up from the waterline. 
The boat weighs about 10t loaded and measures 35' on deck and about 47' overall. It never had an engine and I built it 13 years ago. I have sailed 15000 miles with it and a few times across the North Atlantic.
I scull the boat only in calm weather. If there are any obstacles and wind I kedge it. If there are no obstacles I sail.

Cheers


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## Aneblanc (Nov 14, 2012)

Last year I made a 14' long yuloh for my Shark 24. I have made pictures of it but I don't think I may post them here though. I need >10 posts to be able to do so.
I used the Easygo/Slieve yuloh design.

I tried it but I think I made the sockets for the ball too shallow. The ball is a 1¼" hard wood ball mounted on a 3/8" steel pin. The pin itself is mounted on a hardwood post bolted to the transom of the boat so that the ball is 11" above the transom. The sockets (3) are molded in epoxy in a hard wood block glued on the underside of the yuloh.

The yuloh seems too long for the boat and the technique is quite different from sculling. I didn't have much chance to try it as there was almost always wind and the yuloh was really an auxiliary.

The few times I tried to use it it was always jumping out and I would have needed a retainer at least until I had mastered the technique a bit more.

I think when I do it again I will make an 11' oar in a deep notch right on the transom. Maneuverability is important, for example to come alongside and turn the boat on the spot and I think a sweep is better for that.

Cheers


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Andrew65 said:


> Hehehe...Thought you might like that. Keep us posted on how you make out with it and what you discover along the way about the connection with yuloh and pin.


definately will do


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Aneblanc said:


> Last year I made a 14' long yuloh for my Shark 24. I have made pictures of it but I don't think I may post them here though. I need >10 posts to be able to do so.
> I used the Easygo/Slieve yuloh design.
> 
> I tried it but I think I made the sockets for the ball too shallow. The ball is a 1¼" hard wood ball mounted on a 3/8" steel pin. The pin itself is mounted on a hardwood post bolted to the transom of the boat so that the ball is 11" above the transom. The sockets (3) are molded in epoxy in a hard wood block glued on the underside of the yuloh.
> ...


your pin is one problem. looking at the chinese videos in this thread, you will notice the pin is a steel pin. not wood. it looks to have no greater shaft diameter than 3/8", if that. the ball, at the top of the pin is not much bigger than the average marble, that kids play with: the 'shootng' marble.

i do believe that the hole is fairly shallow but a smaller diameter hole will have steeper sides than a similarly shallow wide hole. i think that the key to keeping the yuloh on the shaft is technique; just like with the bahaman and his sculling oar.

you are an inspiration to all of us who have been motorless and are considering staying that way.


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

Welcome Aneblanc, 
With only 4 posts, but all that mileage, what are your additional experiences? A picture is worth a thousand words, so if you could post some and yur pin arrangement, I'm sure grasshopper, l, and others would like to see them.


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

Yuloh as alternative motion: 




It took a while, but here is my yuloh.


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