# Re-Powering Advice



## kptmorgan04 (Apr 10, 2007)

My old Volvo Penta MD21B 60 HP diesel just bit the dust while we were heading into Jacksonville. Currently my boat (36ft 1981 ketch rig) is at Palm Cove Marina in Jax. I have had a mechanic by the name of Dan Parker of Pinpoint Captains Services, Mobile Yacht Repair. He tried to fix the old engine, whch was smoking, later to find we had to replace the head gasket and that we had one cylinder not in good shape. After the head gasket was replaced, the engine died for good. 
After reading through some stuff on here and the internet, it looks like I am leaning toward the Yanmar 4JH4E 54 HP. I am not on the boat, but my "co-captain" who knows as much about the boat and its systems as I do will be fore the next few weeks. 
So as for the questions:
Does anyone know anything about Pinpoint Captains Services or have any other recomendations for mechanics in the Jax general area? He seemed good and to know his stuff, but I am no mechanic, so just figured I would ask. He was arranging with a Yanmar dealer for them to put a bid for the job, I believe the engine goes for about 9k. Typically what type of ballpark price range am I looking for in labor and other equipment fees?

Any suggestions or reccomendations as per engine replacement and things that can be done to prep the job?

One issue I think will be the transmission conversion, which I really know nothing about. A call was put into Volvo for their recommendations, but am waiting for a call back. 

So basically, I am at square one and trying to gather as much info as possible, so I would appreciate anything and everything. 

Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

While I don't know the HP of the Yanmar, I was quoted much more for a 23 to 29 hp motor. Check the price of the engine.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

If the yard does everything, figure labor at about equal to the cost of the engine. Thus for a $9000 engine, total installed is about $18,000. If you can do some of the work yourself (like removing the old engine and/or installing some of the new engine systems) you can save a lot on the labor. A friend recently had a new Yanmar put in his 39 foot Irwin and total cost was over $20,000.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Those installation costs are outrageous.... $9000 to fit a motor???? Haul the boat and fit it yourself. Call in someone to do your alignment if you must, but ft it yourself.

Be careful that the Yanmar may turn the prop the other way. You may need a new prop if it does. 

Would a 40 hp motor not move a 36 ft ship ok? Certainly my 35 hp moves my36 ft 23,000 lb cutter ok.

A 54 hp motor is big, and heavy, and will use more fuel, and is more costly to maintain. Does it really need to be that big? It is an auxiliary after all.

Check out the 40 hp Beta Marine. The motor is a Kubota, and used in construction plant, so the spare parts prices are not too bad.

Don't put another Volvo in there. I have one, and I would not fit another. Not because the motor is bad, but because Volvo have lost the plot on spare part prices.

I have no connection to Beta.

Rockter.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Beta's are typically cheaper, and are well set up for maintaince. They also come with a transmission (don't know if the Yanmar does). When I have the bucks, I'm planning on swapping out my 13hp Yanmar for a 25hp Beta.

For $9,000, that sounds like it must be a rebuilt. If possible, pulling and refitting the new engine would save you a ton of money. Even if you had someone else hook up the wiring. There's also a good chance you'll need a new control panel, new engine mounts, etc. Good luck with getting her going again.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd third the recommendation for the Beta's. I've worked on one recently, and it was much simpler to access much of what was needed than other engines I've seen. Unfortunately, going with a different engine is going to require new engine mounts, and some serious work setting up and aligning the new engine and propshaft. 

If you can haul the boat and do most of the engine installation yourself, it would save you considerable money.


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

The 4JH series are good engines. The latest one is even better because the impeller is accessible from the front. 54 hp seems a lot for your boat but it doesn't hurt. You'll need a new prop, RH and new waterlift muffler and larger exhaust . Installation including mounts and all this stuff should run around $5000.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/beneteau393/
beneteau393 : Beneteau393 Group


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

All of the engine quotes that I got around 3 months ago included, the transmission and the wiring harness and panel. The Beta marine price I received was $6000.00 higher then my lowest quote which was for a lombardini LBW 1003 which is a 30 hp motor. That price was $7200.00. I looked at them because they are based out of NJ.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Most diesels are very rebuidable. You may want to check having yours rebuilt
as I'm sure it would be alot cheaper. I did a quick check here:
http://www.marinepartsexpress.com:8080/empress2/servlet/Impart?level=four&ID=337
and parts prices aren't too bad.
Also one site said it was 55 hp @ 4500 RPM. http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-dops_fishing_engine-details?model_id=52&make=AB+VOLVO+PENTA


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## TSteele65 (Oct 19, 2006)

Freesail99 said:


> All of the engine quotes that I got around 3 months ago included, the transmission and the wiring harness and panel. The Beta marine price I received was $6000.00 higher then my lowest quote which was for a lombardini LBW 1003 which is a 30 hp motor. That price was $7200.00. I looked at them because they are based out of NJ.


Interesting - I've never heard of Lombardini. Having restored Italian motorcycles and scooters, though, the fact that it's Italian gives me the chills.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

TSteele65 said:


> Interesting - I've never heard of Lombardini. Having restored Italian motorcycles and scooters, though, the fact that it's Italian gives me the chills.


I understand that many boat builders in Europe use there engines. Here is the web site. 
http://www.prp-inc.com


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

I did own an Italian car for about 10 years, a FIAT. 
Though the body rusted away slowly, the motor was strong, and made it to 128,000 miles, and was still going fine. 
They can build a good motor.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Rockter said:


> I did own an Italian car for about 10 years, a FIAT.
> Though the body rusted away slowly, the motor was strong, and made it to 128,000 miles, and was still going fine.
> They can build a good motor.


My brother had a Fiat 850 spider. I seem to recall it ran like a clock. Cool, little sports car.

BTW, doesn't Fiat make Ferrari ?


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## kptmorgan04 (Apr 10, 2007)

Curious as to why some reccomendations have been to go with a smaller engine when my current engine is 60HP? 
I have started some research on the Betas, thanks for the suggestions. 

with the larger exhaust for the Yanmar engine... what does that entail? would the exhaust have to be modified for any new engine? 

At this point I have pretty much ruled out rebuilding the current engine. I think it has seen her day and I have already dumped enough into it over the past year that I wish I had just had a new engine put in from the get go.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

kptmorgan04 said:


> Curious as to why some reccomendations have been to go with a smaller engine when my current engine is 60HP?
> I have started some research on the Betas, thanks for the suggestions.
> 
> with the larger exhaust for the Yanmar engine... what does that entail? would the exhaust have to be modified for any new engine?
> ...


What does your boat displace?

Do you feel the 60 gave you enough power?

I like the 4jh4e. It is a lot quieter than some of the earlier ones. It runs smooth. You may even find your gas mileage improves. I get about .9gph at 2600 rpm. That is a very rough ballpark.

The exhaust should be 3inches, as I recall... but there are a lot of variables in that including the number of turns, riser, length to discharge, etc. You can get by with smaller, but I think 3" is the min Yanmar reccomends. Check your back pressure when you are done. I think it should stay around 2ish at WOT. The larger (3"+) exhaust should help with your diesel useage also - with larger being more efficient. At least that has been reported back to me.

I cannot help with the cost of repowering or yards, just wanted to comment on the engine. I hope that helps some. Take care,

- CD


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## kptmorgan04 (Apr 10, 2007)

My boat displaces 10 tons. the shaft is 1 3/8 and the current prop is 19x13.

any thoughts about the transmission conversion/fitting with either the yanmar or beta?


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

At 20k lbs, the 54 should be fine. My boat weighs more than that and the 4e pushes is along VERY well.

No comments on the tranny.

- CD


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

I just changed an MD21A for a 4JH4E. Over here the new beast cost nearly 12000 euro, so $9000 is a good price by comparison. I ended up doing a lot of the work myself, but still got a final bill around 18000 euro. 

A lot of things have to change. Luckily not the propeller, Yanmar have a wide range of gearboxes so you can probably match one to your boat and prop. I ended with a ZF 25. Although the Yanmar rotates in the opposite direction to the Volvo, this gearbox is symmetric, it doesn't care which way is forward or aft.

Yes the engine mounts have to be changed. Yes the shaft output is lower on the ZF than it was on the BW gearbox it replaced, so I went for a CV drive, it let me lower the engine and provided a quieter drive, but it did need extra mounting. ... and a new prop-shaft.

You asked about the exhaust, yes the Yanmar uses a larger diameter pipe that the old Volvo did, so I had to cut out the old pipe and fit the new one with a new water lift. That was quite a long job and a struggle. Funny how difficult it was to get a suitable tailpipe to exit the hull. Then fitting it was a job for three elbows. 

Also the Yanmar manifold is on the opposite side to the Volvo, heading straight for the battery bank, so I am now down by one battery and have a new battery box.

Guess what, the exhaust run and the new engine bearers and the CV drive mounting all ganged up on my raw water inlet seacock and filter, so they had to get moved.

Mounting the new control panel and wiring took me longer than I thought it would. I wanted to do a neat job. Odd things like the old diode bridge was too small for the new alternator, which in any case needed wiring differently, that led me to a new 4 stage charger.

The gear-shift needed a bit of work to get it working in the right direction, but I managed to use the old one. 

Then there was all those other jobs that suddenly became both desirable and possible, like cleaning and painting the bilges, fitting custom made water tanks to maximise capacity, which would only go in with the engine out. Refurbishing the Whetlock drive all the way to the rudder, fitting a rope cutter, .... and so it went on.

The result is good though.


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## FishSticks (Nov 16, 2007)

Man, the prospect of repowering in a distant boat yard would scare the heck out of me. Good time to call in a pro unless your co-captain in FL is highly qualified to act as your port engineer, so-to-speak. 

The Propeller Handbook by Dave Gerr will clarify the HP requirement issue.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

The problem with the larger motor is that you need a bigger prop to absorb the power, typically a big three blade.
Then you have to drag the blade around when you are sailing.
I have a twin blade prop, such that it can be aligned with the keel to minimise drag.
My ship is probably very similar in displacement to the boat in question... 23,000 lbf.... or so.... and the twin blade prop, and a 35 hp motor, moves her well. Not so good into a strong breeze with fetch right on the nose, but you cannot have everything.

Rockter.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Mine is 26000lbs and I have a Yanmar 4JH4E, three blade prop and have no problems maintaining 6 to 7 knots at 2400rpm. More often than not I try to run slower, about 1800 rpm we get around 5kn and it does wonders for fuel consumption.

I don't know what I sacrifice dragging the prop.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

There is an artical in the October 07 issue of Ocean Navagator called Improving low speed fuel efficiency. In the artical they give the same boat as a base and then show the speed with different engine sizes. They also show that speed in smooth water and in rough water. Might be worth picking up an issue. If you can't find it maybe I can photocopy the artical for you.
Paul


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## kptmorgan04 (Apr 10, 2007)

so after talking to a guy with Beta Marine at Marine Diesel Specialists in Jacksonville, I was basically told that what many on here have said about going with a smaller engine. He recommended (without seeing my boat yet) the 40HP range based on displacement. He also said that I would most likely need a new prop and possibly shaft since I would be going from a prop designed for a 60 hp engine to one designed for whatever engine I will end up going with. 
The Kubotas/Beta Marine are suprisingly a little more expensive than I would have thought. Basically it seems that they are about the same as the Yanmars. I do need to get a price quote for a smaller HP Yanmar as well as I only got one for the 54hp. 

Some points that he said that I am not sure if it was just him or him being a Kubota dealer telling me were:
The power curves on the Kubota engines were better than the Yanmar... saying that if I had a lighter displacement boat ie catalina or hunter that the Yanmar would be better suited for me. 
That the Yanmar is a good engine (obvioulsy) but built a little bit inside out where depending on engine room access, (which luckily mine is pretty good) servicing the engine can be very difficult. 
Any agreements or dissagrements? 


So far I am leaning toward the Kubota over the Yanmar slightly, as it seems there will need to be less modifications with the Kubota especially with the exhaust system.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*I've owned...*

I've owned Yanmar, Kubota based (Universal) and Mitsubishi based (Westerbeke) engines. They are all quite good and all very reliable. Kubota engine parts, however, via a tractor store, are much cheaper than Yanmar or Mitsubushi parts.

I currently have a 2003 (Mitsubishi) Westerbeke 44B Four with 2700+ hours and NOTHING has gone wrong with it. She still runs smooth as silk, uses no oil and purrs like new..... Don't rule out the 44B Four!


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

I had the 40 hp verses 54 hp decision to make. I'm sure 40 is enough for normal use. The extra hp helps when working against wind waves and tide. Having been driven backwards by 45 odd knots on the nose in a nasty chop, I decided for the little extra.


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

i'm not sure what you mean by the engine going. you are looking at a very big project and tons of money to replace your powerplant. very rare that an engine can't be rebuilt and made reliable at a much lower hassle and cost. aside from the prop shaft and prop, you are talking modifying engine mounts, engine bed, exhaust, instruments, controls, raw water input, and electrical connections, and so the cost will be soaring well above the simple cost of the engine. i hear that volvo parts are expensive, but has anyone tried to source engine parts that weren't marine? ten to one they use the same block in their construction equipment, trucks and buses.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Hoffa I have a md11c volvo, I would love to know the source of a non marine block or parts.


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

kptmorgan04,

You're on the right track. At least you're not considering Volvos!!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/beneteau393/
beneteau393 : Beneteau393 Group


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

Freesail99 said:


> Hoffa I have a md11c volvo, I would love to know the source of a non marine block or parts.


volvo makes diesel construction equipment, commercial trucks and buses, so you know that they don't manufacture a separate line of diesels just for their marine division. what some bright spark has to do is compare hp and displacement and find out what different models of equipment that block was dropped into. unfortunately engine model numbers won't tell you anything.

i'll bet some digging online will turn up an alternate source - say a truck engine, and then you can find jobber non-volvo equivalents. go for it; i love it when big multis are undercut by the little guy.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

The MD11 is an early motor, like my MD17C, and they share a lot of common stuff.... heads, barrels, valves.
I think that the marine diesels were a dedicated line, but I may be wrong.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

HoffaLives said:


> i'm not sure what you mean by the engine going.


In my case, with the MD21A, (4 cylinder) Volvo took it off their spare parts list. For some things, the MD32 (6 cylinder) had common parts, but its days on Volvo's list are numbered. I was down to getting second hand parts off scrapped engines for other things. At 4000+ hrs the old Volvo was going strong, but refurbishment was not remaining an easy option.


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## haffiman37 (Jun 4, 2004)

To ease some confusion or make it worse:
The Volvo MD 19/21/32 are all Renault/Peugot (Indinor) engines. Old Peugot 404 Diesel. Only marine parts are Volvo.
The 21's were sold as 61Hp, but were never above 58 on the cranck shaft.
The MD11/17 only excists as marine engines and not as 'industrial' engines.


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## kptmorgan04 (Apr 10, 2007)

ok so it looks like I am going with the Yanmar 4JH4 Series 54 HP engine through Marine Consulting & Servicing. I am going to be getting hauled at St. Johns Boat Company to do the job. I will have the existing engine all ready to get pulled before getting hauled out and hopefully there wont be too many mounting/modification issues. one concern is that my existing shaft is not going to be long enough because of how big my current Vovlo is and the length of the transmission/gear box. 
The Beta was about 2K more when it was all said and done and the dealer/yard that sold them couldnt fit me in till after the new year. 

So the main decision I have left is for a new prop. I havent researched brands at all and really just want something reliable and simple, not something to give me that "extra xxx of a knot." Any suggestions?

Thanks to everyone who has helped out along the way!


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

When you pull your shaft, check for wear, you might need another one anyway, depending on what kind of thru'hull or cutlass you use. 

You might be able to fit a CV drive, which will require a shorter shaft. It might also help save space in the engine compartment and give a quieter ride. Sounds expensive, but not if it saves buying a new shaft.

Check that the shaft that is ordered has the right taper for the prop you buy. Over here, the shafts come with one taper, the MaxProp has another. I had to pay for the modification.

Check that your chosen gearbox will stand being driven round by a fix prop when sailing, some need either a shaft brake or a folding prop, at least to stop the noise. I went for the folding prop (MaxProp), look at the Prop thread running here.

With a ZF 25 gearbox or similar choice, you might not need a new prop. I was able to move my MaxProp to the 4JH4E, but partly because it has adjustable pitch. It was worth checking, as the MaxProp is expensive.


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## gavinandrebecca (Oct 28, 2007)

so how much for the motor?


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## kptmorgan04 (Apr 10, 2007)

so I got the Yanmar, just over 10k with shipping, optional C-Panel, longer wiring harness, and down angle transmission. 
The volvo got pulled out yesterday, my buddy said he spent 5-6 hours last night cleaning out the bilge! he said it was an absolute mess and had MANY hidden treasures down there. Also said that our bilge pump wasnt rated anywhere near where it should be, so luckily we were already planning on replacing that. I will unfortunatly most likely have to get a new shaft, because my existing one is not long enough, and a new/used prop. The new engine should be dropped in this afternoon or tomorrow morning! 
Does anyone know if a Yanmar dealer has to conduct their "certification" to get the full warrenty, or do they just want to do it for some extra cash on their end and for my supposed peace of mind?


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Many engine makers require the "certification". I have been quoted as high as $750.00 for that service.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I've only just run across this thread. We keep our boat at Palm Cove Marina. Marine Consulting and Services (MCS) used to be located there before the condo development threatened to take over. The people I've worked with there (Dori and Jim mostly) have always been helpful and knowledgeable, and I plan to have them go over my Yanmar soon. I believe you'll be happy with them.

When the new install is complete, let us know how it turned out.

Jim


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## ec_zoomer (Mar 19, 2002)

Just a heads up on Kubotas, I bought mine from Phasor, because they were down the road, BIG MISTAKE!!. I don't want this to get out of the bounds of good taste, just don't deal with them. The guys at Beta are first class. BTW, I love my 37.5 hp Kubota.
I did my installation myself, there is no substitute for hands on knowlage when you are out crusing.


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## imagstar (Dec 18, 2000)

*md21b origin*

2 years ago we rebuilt the md21b on my patents Oyster 39, (in <st1lace w:st="on">Antigua</st1lace>) not a bad job as most of the parts were available. The head was a problem and after a ridiculous time surfing the web I found that the basic engine was made by a Renault/Citroen plant and marinized by Volvo. The engine was used in a variety of vehicles, most importantly a citroen delivery van. There are still a lot of these around and in Argentina they make new cast iron cylinder heads, (+ lots of other parts) as I recall $250 and about the same again for shipping. The iron head has advantages over the alloy in a boat


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## kptmorgan04 (Apr 10, 2007)

imagstar said:


> 2 years ago we rebuilt the md21b on my patents Oyster 39, (in <st1lace w:st="on">Antigua</st1lace>) not a bad job as most of the parts were available. The head was a problem and after a ridiculous time surfing the web I found that the basic engine was made by a Renault/Citroen plant and marinized by Volvo. The engine was used in a variety of vehicles, most importantly a citroen delivery van. There are still a lot of these around and in Argentina they make new cast iron cylinder heads, (+ lots of other parts) as I recall $250 and about the same again for shipping. The iron head has advantages over the alloy in a boat


hey, if you are looking for parts for the md21b let me know. currently the entire engine is out of the boat and at my mechanics shop in Jax.


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## gavinandrebecca (Oct 28, 2007)

So whats the up-date?
Did it all fit ? Thinking o f doing the same just not sure of going with a new yanmar or a reco perkins. I truly hope all went well. I always here that the exhaust pipe must be enlarged too, true?
Good luck
gavin


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Watch out for prop size.*

I just repowered my C&C 36 Frigate from a Atomic 4 to a 3GM Yanmar I had rebuilt. Went from a 12" prop to a 15" and was recommended at 16". My research with prop manufacturers showed that most boats are under proped and over powered. All you are doing with a bigger engine is spinning water , not pushing the boat. Of course a larger prop meant a larger aperture. All in all I had to cut the aperture out to double opening and reglass; new prop($300); new shaft($400); new seal(PPS $200); new cutlass bearing($20); minor motor rebuild($1150); new control panel($350); new engine beds and purchase used motor($1200). I did all work myself except motor repairs and a friend did that. I've got just under $4500 with materials. All I will advise is check with prop manufacturers before buying bigger engine. I was advised by two manufacturers to rebuild A4 and install larger prop. I had already purchased diesel and started rebuild. A Beta, I believe it was 23 HP, with tranny and control panel was about $7K at Annapolis boatshow. Good luck.


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## StoneAge (Sep 28, 2007)

Maybe it's too late, but have you thought about electric drive? There are a few companies that will retro fit your diesel with an electric motor run off batteries. No, it actually weighs less than your current engine with a full tank of fuel so the weight considerations are moot. As far as running, expected run time on pure electric is about 7 hours, when sailing you can re-generate via the prop shaft and when needing more, you can install a smaller diesel genset to cover battery charging in a hybrid configuration. 

I think it's a smart way to go. VERY seriously considering it myself. 

Do a search on Google for solar electric marine drive systems. You will find that you can be completely retrofitted for about the same money and have the advantage of charging your batteries whenever you go sailing. 

As most boats (don't know about yours) only use engines to enter and exit marinas, the 7 hour range is quite sufficient. And for us cruisers, a genset is a viable option that will not only make us use less fuel (less emissions and all that good stuff) when we have to, but make us sail more too. Too often we throw on the Iron Genny just because we want to get there faster. 

Sailing is about enjoying the journey as much as the destination. 

Just a thought. 

Stone Age.


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## sbarker (Jan 29, 2008)

Hello,

I just found this thread, which interests me greatly. I am currently looking for parts for a 1980 Volvo-Penta MD21B. I'm doing a rebuild. I've found that the exhaust pipe/manifold is available new but is like $2500. Anyone have cheaper sources or have one for sale?

Feel free to email me: stephen at digitalfrontiersmedia.com


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

That is the problem with Volvo's and I have one myself. Parts if they can be had are to costly. Your $2500 exhaust manifold is 40% the cost of a new Vetus engine. Have you thought about taking the part to a machine shop to have it re-made ? I have done that in the past with a few things and in many cases, it was cheaper.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Ah Sbarker... the famous Volvo exhaust manifold saga, For me it was 1997, and they wanted £1300 for it, $2600, and that was 11 years ago. The motor was an MD17c. Their excuse than was that the motor was old.... 20 years old. Apparently they are not supposed to last that long.

The maniford is cast, and I split mine, and I have never forgiven the V***o b******s for how they tried to rip me off.

I got a second-hand one for £350.

I promised never, never, never to buy another Volvo.

Avoid them you guys out there, or you will learn the same way I did.

They are not too expensive new, but you wait 'till later.

Avoid, avoid, avoid.

Rockter.


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