# Dufour 4800''s



## ughmo2000 (Feb 12, 2003)

*Dufour 4800''''s*

Anyone care to comment on the mid 80''s Dufour 4800 as far as sailing characteristics, build quality, common problems, liveability, etc?

Thanks! Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Cliff


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## Dufour34 (May 3, 2008)

*Dufour4800*

I have a Dufour 4800 1981. As with most boats of that vintage,
the old Volvo MD11C was replace with a 27 HP Yanmar. There are
so few of these around that I don't have much to compare it to.
When I bough it, I thought the deep keel would enable me to point
upwind higher but I have not found that to be true.


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## Aaln1 (Jul 1, 2010)

*Another guy looking at a 4800*

Hi guys
I'm looking at purchasing a Dufour 4800. I wondered just the same as _Ughmo_ if there is any advice out there regarding obvious problems.
I am also considering an Elan 33 which is younger and cheaper. So if anyone has information that could help me resolve the problem of "which boat" , I'd appreciate it.
 
Thanks
Allan


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## Aaln1 (Jul 1, 2010)

Well Just to update you folks out there. I bought the Dufour. Still cant find any info about them but the build quality and the performance seem to be OK for the money I am paying. Would like to hear from anyone who owns one. 
Cheers


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## samwind (Feb 27, 2011)

Hi 

i am looking to buy a dufour 4800 too, any recommendations?


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## Aaln1 (Jul 1, 2010)

I have had my 4800 for a year or so now. I love my boat. I agree that she does not point well into the wind. If you keep her on the the tail of the windvane she is losing speed, so I keep the indicator on the outside of the arrow. The ease of use of the sails and the sail layout is great. I'd almost go as far to say that it is the best layout I have come across, with a reasonably untrammelled deck. In gusty winds she leans over easily so can be quite exciting. Any real problems the quick release mechanism on the main is a lifesaver. At 18 knots wind a precautionary reef in the mainsail is wise. The Volvo engine has also been replaced by a Nanni 36 at some time in the past. Solid piece of kit. This boat needs an autopilot if you are soloing! but is easy to handle solo - she is quite skittish about holding a course (so making tea can be an issue). Manoeuvrability in marina is excellent. They are well made boats - mine is on original gelcoat with no signs of problems. For my budget, I think she is a great all rounder in racing or in cruising. A whole lot of boat for the cash. There is a Dehler 36 parked next to me in the marina and looking at her, the 4800 is a better layout, especially in the cockpit. 
There are 2 versions; cruising with mid engine; and ocean with he engine to the rear of the companionway(mine is the ocean). Anyway Hope this helps. Anything specific come back to me. Cheers


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## samwind (Feb 27, 2011)

Very helpfull information thank you, on the other hand i learnt that the keel is "attached" to the boat and needs to be looked at as part of the survey??
Any info?


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## Aaln1 (Jul 1, 2010)

Hi Sam, The keel is an attached iron keel as far as I know, so I would employ an experienced surveyor and have the boat taken out of the water. When mine was surveyed it was standing on its keel against the dockside when the tide went out! So they are pretty strong. If there are problems they must be associated with particular boats. I have not heard of a keel problem elsewhere on this model. I took nearly 2 years to buy a boat and had several looked at. This one felt right to me. So there are always plenty other chances out there. IMHO the surveyor is most important piece of kit you have - a good one will always discuss the boat with you ahead of time and will probably agree to a "look over" prior to full survey. So ask around or phone up and see how you get on with the guy. Ask him to take loads of photographs etc. Incidentally once the deal is done ask the owner if he knows of any problems that have not been picked up - my seller quite happily identified one that was taken care of ASAP and the other is "one to watch". Since purchase there are a number of things I have also identified which are waiting for budget to catch up. Like tidying up the wiring in an old boat....... Again hope this helps
Cheers


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## samwind (Feb 27, 2011)

Great help indeed thank you, should the joint between the keel and the hull have any treatment? waterproofing?...


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## Aaln1 (Jul 1, 2010)

Hi Sam, Someone has put the bee in your bonnet over the connection between the hull and keel! Most modern hulls are precast and then bolted on.








I'd advise waiting for the survey, you can instruct the surveyor to satisfy himself as to the stability of the joint and carry on from there. If there are obvious problems then use them for price reduction. Yous surveyor will also have a knowledge of keel construction so should be able to give you a rundown on how your keel fits the hull. As an aside, if the boat has been in a local marina for a few years, then a local surveyor already knows her - cos they are nosy that way! So ask around. If you are friendly with marina staff its amazing how much you can find out unsolicited. Otherwise don't fix what aint broke - unless it is going to sink you!


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## Finnster (Aug 13, 2011)

Hello

This is my first post to this brilliant and very useful forum, so here goes.

Thanks Aaln1 for sharing your experiences with the Dufour 4800. Very informative indeed. I also have my eye on a Dufour 4800. It is year 1981, deep keel, engine in the midship version, and appears to be a very well maintained specimen. I am concidering biting the bullet and placing an offer (of course with a survey clause etc.) but would like to know more about the keel construction. Haven't seen the boat on the dry yet, but the broker and the seller both told me, that the keel is covered in grp. This came out, when asking about possible previous damage and repair. The owner told me he had an encounter with a rock, and had to have the grp repaired at the bottom front corner of the keel.

With this in mind, I would like to know, whether the 4800 keel is an encapsulated type without keel bolts, or just a grp sheathed one with keel bolts? There are no keel bolts visible in the bilge, so they must be glassed over if they exist. Also, does anybody have any definite info of the ballast material used in 4800 keels?

Another thing I noticed was some delamination on one of the grp-made "boxes" on the sides of the bilge, the ones that support the floor boards. Delamination can be easily heard when tapping on the box. Are those boxes integral supporting structures, or just there to provide a platform for the floorboards?

Any relevant input would be greatly appreciated.
Finnster


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## Aaln1 (Jul 1, 2010)

Hi Finnster. Apologies I dont know exact details of keel construction, but I do know that it is a bolt - on cast iron fin keel. So as far as I can glean it is covered in GRP and gelcoat. Now as to your question - was the repair done under insurance? If it was who carried out the repair and go and talk to them. There is a huge difference between having a bump while bumbling along or having a good going crash under full sail in a force 5 or above, the kinetic energy involved is enormous in the latter case. In my imagination I would assume that a repair would include stripping back the GRP coating to inspect the bolts and checking dimension. On the way through the GRP coat they would have seen enough to come to a conclusion on the general state of the GRP/gelcoat layers. So points your surveyor has to satisfy himself on: Is the repair commensurate with the damage and is the keel correct in its dimension and plane. A simple set of measurements should decide that quickly. If the keel is offset by a couple of degrees then perhaps problems and perhaps she is just slower on one tack than the other (incidentally she is quite likely to be anyway!). If she is actually twisted then no-go IMHO. Other possibilities to look for are strain patterns in the hull. Your surveyor will have seen these before and once seen never forgotten. Again this may be just your boat asking for a slightly thicker layup due to age.
The 4800 has a lot of double skinning which is good in some ways for hiding cables etc but poor for inspecting the outer hull from the inside. 
I think I have to say rely on your surveyor, but instruct him on what you have found out and what you want by way of reassurance from him. The price of these older boats has to be realistic and owners know this. 
The delamination - does it make a sound like a packet of crisps? or just a dull thud? Again a question for your surveyor - anything I said could only be opinion!
On the plus side, the Dufour 4800 is a boat quite capable of excitement and as a first boat purchase will always be remembered with fondness. Mine has already taught me many things which I look out for on others boats - and so far I am satisfied as to who has the better boat! I am also reassured that the Dufour specsheet for mine reads "This boat has been approved by the French Merchant Navy Commission of Safety No. 1801, 1st category"


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## Finnster (Aug 13, 2011)

Hello Aaln1,

And thanks for a kind and thorough reply! It's very good to know, that the keel is bolted on, and it is just sheathed with grp. I thought it might be the case, but wasn't sure.

When it comes to checking for the possible damages caused by the grounding, I'm not quite so worried anymore, either. My main worry was, that the keel would have been encapsulated w/o keel bolts, and the grp structure around the ballast would have gotten wet. That would have been a nigh impossible problem to repair, and also a difficult thing to spot in its early stages even for an experienced surveyor. It's quite a bit easier to inspect a bolted keel construction - even with hidden bolts - and I now trust the surveyor to spot the most obvious problems, should there be any. 

And thanks, it's a very good tip to go and try to talk to the seller's insurance company, providing indeed that the damage repair was taken care of by them. The seller says the impact was not hard at all, but that too can probably be verified by talking to the insurance people.

In any case the accident was not recent, and the seller has other, completely plausible reasons to sell the boat. So it's unlikely anybody's trying to dump a damaged boat here. But that said, in any case it is better to be safe than sorry, absolutely.

Anyhow, it's really good to hear you have been happy with your Dufour 4800! I also think it has tremendous bang for the buck -factor. The sailing characteristics seem to be very good with no oddities, the deck layout is very functional, and the large after cabin makes the interior layout exceptionally nice, even when compared with modern wide aft designs. The only downside I've found, being 6'3" myself, is a slight lack of standing room. But then again it might be my design fault and not the boat's...

Also the hull lines are in my opinion very pretty in a classic way, with no extreme design features. And I've always liked low coach roof lines such as in 4800, albeit with the small expense of a bit less standing room inside.

By the way, I remember you mentioning something about not being that impressed with the Dufour's ability to point in the wind. Have you found any remedy for it, like via the rig setup etc? I've come across a couple of comments on the net by the French owners, and they say that the 4800's pointing ability is exceptionally dependable on the quality of sails. I'm sure one can't expect miracles, the genova sheeting rails being so wide and far back, but a new, well-cut sail might offer some (though a bit dear) relief?

Finnster


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## Aaln1 (Jul 1, 2010)

Hi Finnster, Sounds like you are shaping up for a relationship! - Falling for some really lovely curves - again. I prefer her looks to the later Classic 36 with the higher coachroof - and I come in at just over 6 ft so I mostly fit!
On your last point, I am not unimpressed - she just dont do what modern boats do. Cant see how sailchange would make a huge difference - could you point me at those French comments? The 4800 will point into the wind but I find she loses significant performance and tightening the sails right up or letting them go a little does not alter that. Let her off a couple of points and suddenly we are at the races. Same if she is leaning over too far, there is a drop in speed and she's better with a bit less sail and more upright. I have 2 sets of sails from reputable manufacturers and they can be tuned pretty well. I think it is more to do with 30 year old hull/keel profiling myself but I'd love to hear I'm wrong! Totally agree that a new set of sails would be an expensive way of finding out! The rest of her I am hugely impressed with - a real nice boat


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## Finnster (Aug 13, 2011)

Hi Aaln1,

Well, we'll have to see about the new relationship, but there's definitely something in the air! I'm currently away for two weeks, though, and can't really proceed with the courtship. And who knows, maybe she'll seduce someone else while I'm gone, you know how them French ladies can be 

Anyways, talking about sails and performance, my personal experience is, that new rags can really have a big impact on the boat's abilities. I had a sail plan similar to 4800 in my old boat, with a big genoa and smaller main (the boat was a lot smaller, though). I used to do some club races and even participated in regional rankings, but had difficulties pointing as high as comparable boats. The boat also seemed to heel more than most. I then changed the oldish but ok dacron genoa with a mylar coveted one, and updated also the dacron main with a new one, better cut and with a free foot etc. The impact was drastic. I gained almost half a knot pretty much throughout the speed range, and even more in light winds. I was also able to point several degrees higher, and the boat was not heeling as much as before either. And as a concrete proof, I also started to score some points, being able to sail close to my handicap much more easily. In your case the effects wouldn't probably be so profound - if any - since you already have decent sails, but nevertheless, it probably wouldn't hurt either. But as you say, that's a very expensive way to try and improve the performance, especially in a boat the size of 4800.

Also the rig configuration might come to play. I don't know if all Dufour 4800's have checkstays, but at least the one I'm looking at has them. I've no experience of checkstays personally (yet), but I've heard, that they can have a considerable impact on how the boat performs upwind. In my understanding the checkstays able you to keep the mast from bending, when you increase tension in your backstay, thus having more tension also in your forestay. If that's the case, then at least my old boat would have benefitted from backstays, because I had real difficulties keeping the forestay from flexing too much, when pointing in medium winds. Do you have checkstays in your boat, and if so, have you noticed any benefits?

That's an interesting point about the design of the 4800 hull. It might well be that the era in which she was designed, is a factor in her ability to point. However, I would still expect her to be able to point at least as high as the modernish pure cruisers, say 32-34 foot Bavarias and Jeanneau Sun Odysseys from nineties and early 2000's. Do you think she can match them? In any case the overall performance of Dufour 4800 seems indeed not to be half bad, at least judging from her handicap. For example the German Kreutzer-Abteilung yardstick seems to give her a general handicap of 102, which translates to a decently quick ship, only a bit behind the older Dehler 106/34.

Finally, you asked where I read about people emphasising the importance of good sails to 4800's performance. I've been to a myriad of websites trying to find info about Dufour, but I'm pretty sure it was on the francophone site called hisse-et-oh where somebody mentioned it. I tried to find the exact thread but failed, though. I think another mention was by someone doing some globe trotting with a 4800, but I failed to relocate that site, too. Sorry I couldn't be more exact, but I'll post it here, if I bump into that info again.


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## Finnster (Aug 13, 2011)

Ok, it's crunch time. I've viewed the boat twice now, and in general I like what I see. Also the seller and the broker seem like decent people, so no trouble there either.

I'm pondering making an offer, but I have one major concern. There are really noticeable dimples on the hull where the shrouds are attached. The dents are vertically aligned, about one foot/30 cm from the waterline, a bit further from the toerail, and about a little bit less than a foot in length. The deck seems to be ok, though, or at least I didn't notice any elevation or cracks around the shroud attachments. I'm pretty sure these dimples are caused by shroud tension to chainplate attachments, and the hull panels not being able to withstand it properly. I've also heard, that they are quite common in Dufour 4800's, and some owners also seem to think, that they are really not a cause for major concern. That's also what the seller and broker think (now they would, wouldn't they).

Be that as it may, the dimples still worry me, almost up to the extent of not going through with the offer and the survey etc. Any insight anyone? And would someone be able to give me a ballpark figure as to how much professional repairs might cost, if it comes down to that? I know I could get the info from the surveyor too, but I'd rather skip the whole excercise, if it turns out to be a major no-no anyways.


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## Aaln1 (Jul 1, 2010)

Hi 
I am in the Canigou in the Pyrenees, so I will keep it short. I hope you mean sizerable dimples and not blisters. If it is blisters then the usual caveat applies. If the dimple is about a foot wide and maybe a little more vertically, then I think I have the identical "blemish". The previous owner pointed them out and said that he believed that he had the rigging tuned too tightly and the rigger agreed when he had it looked at. It passed muster with my surveyor. Far as I can tell there are no stress cracks inside. So that is all I can tell you. Does not seem to make a blind bit of difference to preformance. All the best with it Finnster!!
If you wait till next week then I can send you a pic of mine to see if its identical with your "problem"
cheers


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## Finnster (Aug 13, 2011)

Hi Aaln1

And thanks a lot for taking the time to reply. Pyrenees, huh? It's a beautiful range. I hope you're there for a holiday, not work, and having a good time!

About dimples, yep, we're talking about the same thing all right. It's encouraging to know, that you haven't had any major problems due to them, thanks.

However, in my boat prospect there are sharpish, longish "dents" in the middle of the depressed/bent areas. They're not deep or profound, but definitely there. It could indicate, that the internal structure of the grp has given in and weakened permanently. Or not. Oh well, I just have to contact a certified surveyor, and ask as a consultation, what he thinks about it. If he says it's probably just cosmetic, or it does not cost an arm & leg to put right, then most likely no need for me to worry extensively either.

Back in the day when I was starting sailing, the sailing magazines always gave praise, if the boats were sturdy enough not to be affected by the shroud tension. I guess my fobia stems from that period


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## Finnster (Aug 13, 2011)

Just to inform,

I talked to a surveyor, and decided not to make an offer on the Dufour after all. The surveyor confirmed my initial thoughts, that in general the dimples under shrouds mean some sort of structural issues, and it is not exactly cheap to put them right either. 

That being said, it's probably not really a big problem - if at all - with Dufour 4800's, since so many of them have the condition, and nobody has reported any consequences from it. Nor seems the condition get any worse over time, which is another indication, that it might rather be a trait than a fault.

So, backing out was not so much due to a technical failure from the boat's part, but just my personal preferences. I don't think I could have lived with the phenomenon comfortably, and it would have kept troubling me.

That being said, I still keep Dufour 4800 on my shortlist, just in case I might bump into one without dimples. I still think it's a fine boat, and would suit my needs very well. 

Thanks a lot Aaln1 for your help and valuable consultation, and I wish you many happy miles with your Dufour 4800.

Still boatless,
Finnster


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## Aaln1 (Jul 1, 2010)

Hi Finnster
Sorry to hear that you have pulled out of the sale, but glad to hear you have kept her on the short list. I agree with you that you have to have complete confidence in your boat in your mind! Still, she is a whole lot of boat for the money. There is a nice one for sale in Brooklyn for major cheap$$ - if you fancy sailing her back across the pond 1982 Dufour 4800 sailboat for sale in New York When I get a bit more experience I'll give it a go! Cheers and all the best Finnster - stay in touch


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Aaln1 said:


> Hi Finnster
> Sorry to hear that you have pulled out of the sale, but glad to hear you have kept her on the short list. I agree with you that you have to have complete confidence in your boat in your mind! Still, she is a whole lot of boat for the money. There is a nice one for sale in Brooklyn for major cheap$$ - if you fancy sailing her back across the pond 1982 Dufour 4800 sailboat for sale in New York When I get a bit more experience I'll give it a go! Cheers and all the best Finnster - stay in touch


So do you know anything about that boat? I have seen the ad and am intrigued, though I don't think it is "major cheap$$" as it actually seems a bit high for a standard production boat. As far as I know they are comparable to a Beneteau and the interior looks like it needs work. The only other one I see listed in the US is stored inside and are asking 26,000. Boats in this size, quality and age are not too uncommon, and don't seem to be moving at anywhere near the "asking price."


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## Aaln1 (Jul 1, 2010)

Hi Miatapaul
Sorry, I know nothing about that boat except she is very pretty. I dont know where you are located but these boats sell for more in the Uk and more again in mainland Europe. Almost universally, they have had replacement engines. Not sure what the problems were but it seems the original Volvo was not a satisfactory unit. And as we all know the offer price is rarely the price we bid. But she is a well laid out boat for anyone looking for solid construction from that era. She fitted my budget, had new sails, new rigging, new liferaft a reasonably recent engine and everything about her deckgear was good so that is why I bought her....... And she has a good handicap. And now I like floating about in her! Guess that's what it's about for me


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## Finnster (Aug 13, 2011)

When it comes to pricing, I gotta agree with Aaln1 here. It all depends. I for example am trying to find a long-term boat, and I have a pretty specific list for what I want the boat to be equipped with. Therefore I don't just look at the purchase price, but add to the total cost all the systems which are needed. If those are already in the boat and in good condition, and the boat seems otherwise like it's good enough to be a keeper, I'll be prepared to pay more - even quite a bit over the market price low-mark.

Then again, if you are not that picky about the level of equipment, and are just going to keep the boat for a few years, the purchase price plays a lot bigger role. Horses for courses and so on.

About the pricing in Europe, there are currently a couple of good to very good condition Dufour 4800s for sale in Holland with price tags over 35000 eur, or over 45000 usd. Granted, the boats are in general more expensive here, but Dufour 4800 herself is probably more known and appreciated here, too.

Ps. Aaln1, the trip across the Atlantic to bring a boat is too much for me. I need to find my sea legs in the safety of the Dutch estuaries first


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## Dufour34 (May 3, 2008)

*Keel ... stability*

The keel bolts on my 4800 glassed over so there is not much to see at all.
I suppose that you could have them x-rayed .. but I would think that would
be very expensive. I had a direct hit on a rock in the center of the channel
going into Red Brook Harbor on Cape Cod going at about 4 knots. The bow
rose up and one of the crew nearly flew overboard but no structural
problems were encountered. I've been a bit concerned about it but honestly
there is little you can do about the keel bolts without spending thousands.
You could replace them as part of preventive maintenance but that's a lot
of money for something you don't really know is necessary or not.


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## Finnster (Aug 13, 2011)

Hello,

And sorry to hear about the grounding, never a pleasant experience. If I were you, I wouldn't worry so much about damaging keel bolts or their attachments, but rather the stresses caused to the hull. And more specifically to the hull around the rear portion of the keel, since that's what usually gives first, when grounding as you described. The good thing is, that's an easier area to examine than keel bolts in Dufour, not necessarily requiring any major invasive work. Take a look if you can see any stress cracks anywhere, or if in slightest doubt of your own abilities, let a pro do it for you. Or maybe you already did, since you said no structural damage was encountered?

Dufours are in my understanding pretty sturdily built, so the odds are nothing will be found, especially if the boat did not come to an abrupt halt. Nevertheless, it's better to be safe than sorry, and checking the hull is definitely worth while doing.

Finnster

Ps. I was under the impression (could be wrong, too) that 4800s have a thin glass layer covering the keel. Do you know as an owner, if there's such a layer? If there is, I would imagine that might need some looking into, too.


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