# Help- New owner of 40ft old sailboat, can't get insurance



## mndieck (Jun 15, 2012)

Need help. New owner of a 1974 41ft blue water sailboat. This is the first boat I, myself, have owned. Right now, no insurance company will even give me liability insurance so I can dock at the local marina. I have tried:
SkiboatUS
State Farm
United Marine
Progressive
Global Marine

Their excuse is the same, too big of a boat for a new owner and it is near the ocean. 

Any ideas? 

To make matters worse, this boat is more of a project boat than normal. I bought the boat after it was washed ashore from a storm at a discounted price, got it back into water, and have been doing the necessary repairs. Very long story. While the boat is in great shape all things considered, the likelihood of getting a good survey is low at the moment as well. Currently I have to anchor it out due to insurance woes. The motor runs well, and the boat is worthy of a diesel powered journey, but the rigging and sails need lots of work.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

oh dear...


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## Allen-deckard (Jul 26, 2011)

Just currious but whats the magic number in length or have they given you one or have you asked? Or does anyone else know? And what do they consider inexperienced?

I ask because me and my wife are considering something in the 36ft range own a catalina 22 for a couple of years now and dont plan on buying for another couple years. Havent gotten to the point of checking on insurance yet on a new boat so this story makes me a bit nervious.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

my guess is the PO's insurance already paid out the loss and it's listed as sunk. I've no idea what you should do really.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

It is more than 30 years old, so many insurers won't take it on as a new policy.
It is more than ~30' long, so many insurers who deal primarily in cars and homes won't take it on. 
You're a new owner with limited credentials and no past ownership of a similar vessel, so again many insurers won't take it on.
And the boat may not pass a survey--so MOST insurers won't take it on in any case.

It may not be feasible but in some states you can post a bond in lieu of liability insurance on a motor vehicle, you might ask your state insurance department. Meanwhile, you need to make it a priority that the boat can and will pass a survey 100% and as soon as possible.

If there is a local USCG Aux or Power Squadron, you might ask them about membership and insurance, members often get a discount. Getting credentials (ASA tests, etc.) may help you. Or try IMIS, IMIS Home Page ~ International Marine Insurance Services they're professionals and can probably put you with some legitimate carrier, or tell you what has to be done to qualify for one.


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## b40Ibis (Apr 27, 2011)

They will not insure the boat b/c it is not worth anything. You will have to moor the boat or go on the hard to make repairs.


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## sevseasail (Jan 15, 2007)

It's common knowledge that Lloyds of London will insure anything for almost anybody; it's all about the premiums....

Lloyd's


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## sevseasail (Jan 15, 2007)

b40Ibis said:


> They will not insure the boat b/c it is not worth anything. You will have to moor the boat or go on the hard to make repairs.


You can still insure for an "agreed hull value"; again, it's all about the premium.


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## Allen-deckard (Jul 26, 2011)

But if he's only asking for liability whats it matter what the boat worth is? There not gonna pay out on the boat no matter what there only gonna pay out on damages to other boats you hit or damage. While that still takes into account experience and boat size the worth shouldnt matter I wouln't think.


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## nauticalrich (Aug 31, 2001)

Boat US through West Marine?


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

What are YOUR sailing credentials? USPS? CG Aux? ASA? US Sailing?

I suspect that may have something to do with the trouble in your getting insured as well.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

To make matters worse, this boat is more of a project boat than normal. I bought the boat after it was washed ashore from a storm at a discounted price, got it back into water, and have been doing the necessary repairs. Very long story. While the boat is in great shape all things considered, the likelihood of getting a good survey is low at the moment as well. Currently I have to anchor it out due to insurance woes. The motor runs well, and the boat is worthy of a diesel powered journey, but the rigging and sails need lots of work. 


The survey is THE issue and my 1970 boat is insured with Boat-US NO problem with them or anybody else and had the PO not been willing to keep the boat and existing insurance in his name until it was on jack-stands at home the deal would NOT have happened 


Been there done that would nobody would touch it until AFTER it would survey NOT even port insurance while it was in my driveway 



WHY IN GODS NAME would anybody insure a storm salvaged boat that will NOT even remotely pass a survey


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

tommays said:


> .......
> 
> WHY IN GODS NAME would anybody insure a storm salvaged boat that will NOT even remotely pass a survey




He is looking for liability, not insurance to cover HIS boat.

I don't get it either.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

cupper3 said:


> He is looking for liability, not insurance to cover HIS boat.
> 
> I don't get it either.


liability would be the one that has them BIG TIME on the hook if the boat should sink as it cost a LARGE fortune to salvage a 41' boat with diesel leaking to the surface


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

tommays said:


> liability would be the one that has them BIG TIME on the hook if the boat should sink as it cost a LARGE fortune to salvage a 41' boat with diesel leaking to the surface


Fair point. I suppose a viable hull survey doesn't exist? In other words, through hulls, seacocks etc. are solid.

I do feel for the owner though.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Try Boat US too.

If they say no you may have to go with out insurance on a mooring or put the boat up in someone's yard (not a boatyard). Boatyards and marinas wont let you in without insurance. Staying on anchor is not a safe alternative, some night you'll come home find your home nowhere in sight.

Then you can work on a plan to get insurance:
1. Have the boat surveyed. The surveyor will have some strong recommendations as to safey items needing to be addressed. You need to fix those items.
2. It may take a few months to fix the safety issues. At the end of that period visit one of the local ASA schools and challenge the 101 and 103 exams. If you don't pass the challenges, take the classes.

Then you can go back to the insurance companies with the survey and list of resolved issues, some sailing certificates, a few months of experience running the boat, and that should be enough. The company may require you have the surveyor back to certify the suitability of your resolutions.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

My survey guy was very nice and gave me a free list and said forget about getting it insured 

When he came back 20 months later he had no problem putting his name on the dotted line 

General Summary/Risk Assessment/Values: This boat was found to be well constructed originally, and it has not suffered any major damage or repairs. The basic structure of the boat – the hull, deck, and interior, is sound. The foredeck has been largely rebuilt to correct a delamination condition. The work has been well done. The standing rigging is all new., and the mast and sails are in good condition. The engine, fuel and exhaust systems have all been rebuilt or replaced. The hull has been repainted. There are still some cosmetic upgrades to be made to the interior. In general, the boat has benefited from a knowledgeable and conscientious owner.

If the recommendation is followed I would consider it to be an acceptable risk.

I would place its current market value, as surveyed, based on book values as well as selling prices of similar boats, at about XXXXX


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

Just purchased our second boat. Not wanting to do a survey I called our insurance company and can get liability that will make the marinas happy. 
Douglas K Smith Marine Services in San Diego (insurers anywhere in the USA) 6192222560
By the by Boat US suck the big one.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Create a LLC, put the boat under the LLC and put it on a mooring or anchor. Its worth nothing, and the LLC will protect you from the (remote) chance that your boat causes someone else damages beyond the value of the boat. 

Some may find this distasteful...but the fact that you cant get insurance and now marinas require it is a bit crazy in todays litigious world.


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

night0wl said:


> Create a LLC, put the boat under the LLC and put it on a mooring or anchor. Its worth nothing, and the LLC will protect you from the (remote) chance that your boat causes someone else damages beyond the value of the boat.
> 
> Some may find this distasteful...but the fact that you cant get insurance and now marinas require it is a bit crazy in todays litigious world.


Agreed, at least it protects your other assets. Call it self-insurance if you want.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

I would talk to a marine insurance broker even if he can't help he will be able to tell you why or what you will need to be insured. the real issue with a not so good survey and liability is not so much what you might hurt but who you might hurt. insuring a boat that does not survey well is not one that they want to insure because that is one way new owner get into trouble .


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## CaptMikey (Dec 11, 2011)

try BoatUS.com for insurance.
contact the american saing association and find a sailing school near you and get a couple of ASA certifications. start with basic keelboat 101 which most schools also include a boating safety certificate. then do basic coastal cruising 103 and coastal navigation 105. this will get you over the hump. then get plenty of pratice on the water.
smooth sailing.


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## mndieck (Jun 15, 2012)

UPDATE

Owner of thread here:

So I called BoatUS on the recommendations of SailNet community. At this time they will not touch it. Bryan, one of the underwriters, was very helpful though, and I have learned much to share. He said if I had 12 months of ownership of this boat, and a few ASA classes under my belt, then getting insurance through BoatUS shouldn't be a problem. New boat Owner/limited experience (2 years of using other peoples boats...)/Big boat is the biggest headache. 

It doesn't help that this boat was once on land, though a decent survey may help that. I expect the hull and engine to survey well, but a few soft spots on the deck and some old rigging/sails will cause issues. Not terrible for a 38 year old boat, but I have issues I want to address before survey. 

Now, according to the underwriter, over the past year or so the entire marine insurance industry has tightened up considerably. If this had been 2 years ago, insurance would not have been a problem. Case in point I have also learned from my friend at the marina that he got cheap liability insurance through State Farm 2 years ago, with zero experience on a 30ft sailboat. Calling State Farm, they had changed their policies and/or underwriter one year ago and no longer insure boats in the salt- he is grandfathered in, for now. Essentially, if you have a good insurance policy DON'T LET IT LAPSE!

At this point, a lot of the marinas are not even aware of the difficulties for new boat owners to acquire insurance. Asking around it was one of those "Oh, just get $300,000 liability insurance to protect our docks and the other boats and it won't be a problem..." 

Bryan, the BoatUS underwriter, has given me three smaller insurance companies that may be able to help. Unfortunately they are only open M-F. Current plan is to get the boat fully seaworthy, take a few ASA classes, and try these other companies- not necessarily in that order.

Will post the outcome.


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

mndieck said:


> UPDATE
> 
> Owner of thread here:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update, as this may directly affect me.

With what you describe, it would appear that 30 year and older boats may well have an even further devaluation, unless marina's change their practices, and I'll bet dollars to donuts that the marina's insurance will require them to get copies of boat owner's insurance policies.

Reality bites in this very risk averse universe we are in now.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I sail on my 42 year old Cal 29 and a 42 Year old C&C 35 and its the survey which both have insurance without issue and pretty darn high Actual Cash Values 

EVEN on a much NEWER boat they want one every 10 years and even my orginal owner friend of a PERFECT Tartan 372 had to have and OUT of water survey this season to KEEP his insurance


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

OP, pm me and I'll send you my broker's contact info. I was in the same boat, almost (sorry, couldn't resist): trying to find coverage for a home-built wood boat that had been under the PO's homeowner's policy. I found out like you did that companies don't want to cover older boats without a survey. I was prepping to spring for a survey on a 25'er I was getting for about what the survey would've cost me. In the end I got an agreed-value policy and liability based on my experience crewing (no certs) and detailed pics that showed she was shipshape.

But either way I could believe a good broker could get you liability coverage with a hull/engine survey.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

I hadn't thought about this problem but I guess it makes sense. I got liability with a few clicks online and $125 for my 26. No survey, no questions, nothing.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Liability for inshore sailing shouldn't be problem for any boat. I had a number of companies offering to write a policy. The problem is in going>75-125 miles offshore. It seems that companies are reluctant to insure boats that venture very far from American waters, even when sailing where there are essentially no other boats to run into. I guess the uncertainty of foreign regulations has something to do with it but it would seem, in reality, that the farther one gets away from America the Land of Litigation, the less actual liability.


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## mndieck (Jun 15, 2012)

Owner of thread here, with final update.

I am not going to get insurance on my boat, for now at least. 

After spending time working on it to make it pretty and seaworthy, I have found a private dock that I can use. I am forced to take the risk this year till I can accumulate the year(s) of ownership necessary to get insurance. To mitigate risk I had it pulled out of the water and placed on hard stands to get through hurricane season and to conduct repairs. 

I found a friend with an old Chris Craft wooden boat that was forced into a similar situation, just because it was old and wooden- even though it was meticulously maintained.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> my guess is the PO's insurance already paid out the loss and it's listed as sunk. I've no idea what you should do really. Denise030


Probably true. Did you research insurance for her before you got her? If not why not?
Is the only reason you are getting insurance is because the yards are requiring it? Or do you feel you should have liability insurance no matter what? Isnt what the insurance companies are saying true? Over 30 years, you have limited experience?

Do you feel those are unfair reqirements?

Isnt the insurance also for an accident where you have a polution spill or present an environemental hazzard also?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

click here on the wooden boat fourms--> Where to get old wood boat insurance?

"Default Re: Where to get old wood boat insurance?

At the Wooden Boat Show in Mystic, I stopped at the Grundy booth. They do not require a survey - but do ask for a narrative of what's been done to the boat. Grundy Insurance

Their prices absolutely blew Heritage & Hagerty out of the water - 1/4 Heritage's price, ~45% of Hagerty's. They, like Hagerty, got their start with classic cars & then the owner got into old boats.

I have no connection with them, but unless someone comes up with a big reason why I shouldn't go with them, I am going to. Saving 2-3,000 is just too big a difference to ignore.

All comments welcome!"

-----------
Hope this helps


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## birdlives (Apr 29, 2009)

Try Liberty Mutual, they insured my 79 Allied Princess at half the price of BoatUS.
I do have auto and home with them.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

night0wl said:


> Create a LLC, put the boat under the LLC and put it on a mooring or anchor. Its worth nothing, and the LLC will protect you from the (remote) chance that your boat causes someone else damages beyond the value of the boat.
> 
> Some may find this distasteful...but the fact that you cant get insurance and now marinas require it is a bit crazy in todays litigious world.


Actually this might work, if you get an umbrella liability policy for the LLC, it should cover any damage done by it's assets. Then you should be able to get it into a marina with the umbrella policy.

But the OP found another solution, a private dock, though I would not want to have a boat without at least liability insurance. Even a small accident could take all your assets, including your house if you have one.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

mndieck, we ever going to see this boat? I love wooden boats and I would love to see yours!


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Progressive was at least (2 years ago) one of the easiest places to get insurance. They did not require a survey and will insure coastal sailing. What is there reason for not insuring the boat? They insure my 34 year old boat. 

I had problems with a lot of other insurace companies like Boat US. My homeowners (state farm) was going to insure then they backed out- I think they would rather stick to houses and cars rather than off-shore boats.
Good luck


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

mndieck said:


> UPDATE
> 
> Owner of thread here:
> 
> ...


You may be able to get an umbrella personal liability policy that would cover you for anything. Might be worth asking if the marina would accept that instead of a boat policy.

Also, THANK YOU for following up on this thread! I wish more people did that


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

I was looking at a '76 Sabre 34 that listed for $12K. I wanted to find out what the boat might be worth in average condition. I went to Boat US and filled out a form and they sent me an email estimating it at around $30K but added it could be higher or lower depending on a survey.

Then I started getting emails to insure it. I even got a policy in the mail that was for Florida and the Bahamas and the surrounding area. It was about $1,200/yr, but only insured the boat for $15K. I had already figured it would cost me that in repairs alone to make her safe to sail any farther from land than I could swim.

_(I don't remember all the questions in the questionnaire but if they asked I would have said the largest boat I have ever sailed is 45' and I have about 7K-8K miles of sailing experience.) _

They continued to send me emails about the policy for several weeks, the last being on 11/29 that included a toll free number to call or a link where I could go to purchase the insurance. At no time did I get anything that told me this offer was contingent on anything other than writing the check. I didn't pursue it because I didn't buy the boat.

FWIW.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

night0wl said:


> Create a LLC, put the boat under the LLC and put it on a mooring or anchor. Its worth nothing, and *the LLC will protect you from the (remote) chance that your boat causes someone else damages beyond the value of the boat.*


Yea, I'm not so sure about that. If you're trying to limit your personal liability by placing the boat in an LLC, don't forget that boats are operated by people, and usually the operator will bear some fault when the boat damages another person. I mean, you can't put your car into an LLC, crash into someone, and tell them they're out of luck because they got damaged by an uninsured asset-less LLC.

In some situations, like if you're chartering out the boat to others, an LLC might be useful to limit personal liability, but not when you yourself are the operator of the boat.


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## NaviGsr (Sep 17, 2009)

I'm surprised no one would write you for liability alone with a rider stating that you will not run the boat yourself or that you would only have a captain run it etc.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I would try BoatUs as someone else mentioned. When I bought my boat there were a number of pretty serious deficiencies on the survey. I was able to get 'port restricted' insurance for the boat through Boat US. 

Once I was able to correct the problems and get a surveyor to record that the propane tank no longer vented to the engine room, and that the knife switch for the 110 volt fuse panel was no longer on board and next to the propane tank, I was able to switch to a normal policy. 

I also found BoatUS easy to talk to, and understanding about the realities of an old boat. For example I was able to negotiate a temporary process of getting the old girl off of port restriction if I removed the propane tank and did not use my 110 v system long enough for me to bring her home, where I switched to an alcohol stove and redid the 110 v system. 

As others have suggested, BoatUS may tell you tha the problem is with your experience owning a boat. I would suggest that you put a resume together showing your experience on boats, and discuss that resume with the agent. Worse comes to worse, you may need to go through a sailing safety course. 

Jeff


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

mndieck said:


> Case in point I have also learned from my friend at the marina that he got cheap liability insurance through State Farm 2 years ago, with zero experience on a 30ft sailboat. Calling State Farm, they had changed their policies and/or underwriter one year ago and no longer insure boats in the salt- he is grandfathered in, for now.


I know that this was written in June, but I wanted to say that State Farm insured us on a new boat two months ago, and it is kept in salt water. They know this too.

They did require a survey (although they asked for it months later) due to declared value. They didn't require a survey on our previous boat (worth about 1/3rd as much).


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Alex W said:


> I know that this was written in June, but I wanted to say that State Farm insured us on a new boat two months ago, and it is kept in salt water. They know this too.
> 
> They did require a survey (although they asked for it months later) due to declared value. They didn't require a survey on our previous boat (worth about 1/3rd as much).


Beware of State Farm and other homeowners companies for boat policies. I believe that they do not know how to fully insure a boat.

I used State Farm the first year I had my boat. Then I learned about a few key things that my policy lacked. They do not cover environmental fees if your boat should leak fuel in an accident. These fees can be huge. Also, they do not cover salvage costs sufficiently. The salvage costs are capped at the value of your boat. For example, if your boat is totaled in a storm and ends up wrecked on the shore of a state park, they'll pay only the value of the boat, and that's it. So if you're required to remove the boat, that comes out of the money, and you only get what's left after paying the salvage company. Since salvage can be costly, you could get $0 for your boat. But you will definitely get less than the full value of the boat.

I went to ask my State Farm agent about these things, and she had no idea. They just do no know about the issues that boat owners face.

I moved to BoatUS and got excellent coverage for all of the missing things - at a lower rate than State Farm.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

night0wl said:


> Create a LLC, put the boat under the LLC and put it on a mooring or anchor. Its worth nothing, and the LLC will protect you...


Whether it will protect you, and to what level, depends on a LOT of different variables. Trying to do this without spending a good bit of time (and money) with an attorney would be a VERY foolish thing to do. In the end, I suspect it would be cheaper and easier to just keep looking until you find someone willing to write you a liability policy.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

As some others have said the big advantage of BoatUS is that they understand boats.

A local yard with an excellent reputation told me BoatUS is the best of the insurance companies they deal with for exactly that reason.

I'm a little surprised that so many posters only carry minimum coverage. For a few dollars more I was able to add replacement coverage for my electronics and insure my boat for an agreed value -- it has a lot of additions a "typical" boat wouldn't have.

I just wish I could find an auto/homeowners company that provided this kind of service.


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

The other huge advantage of boat US is that they actually pay. I know several people who have made claims and I have personally as well and every single one was paid in a straightforward and timely manner.

I have other friends who have fought tooth and nail over every detail for YEARS with other companies.


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