# Traveller to windward downwind?



## dv7834 (Aug 30, 2020)

I crew on a C&C 27. It's a great boat and skipper; we win more than our share of races (nothing serious, just Wednesday nights 'round the cans). However, when we sail downwind, the skipper insists on the main traveller being set as far to windward as possible. I do as I'm told, but I'm curious: everything I've read indicates that the traveller isn't even in play going downwind; main twist once the boom is outboard of the traveller should be adjusted by the vang, etc.

I plan on asking him why he sets the traveller this way, but was hoping maybe someone on here would know or have ideas.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

You are right on most boats, when sailing downwind, twist is controlled with the vang. I normally center the traveler down wind so that the boom can't hit the shrouds during a quick or accidental jibe.

So, I can't think of a sail trim reason to bring the traveler to windward. But there are sometimes rig geometry (for example, interference between the spin sheet and mainsheet, or access to a particular winch)reasons that lead to specific traveler settings off the wind.
I will be interested in hearing the explanation.
Jeff


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Betting on superstition. A skipper wins a race, accidentally doing something weird, and swears they need to do it every time. 🙂


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

In fact, he may do this to make the next jibe faster. When he sheets in he can get the boom across the eye of the wind faster and smoother. I pull the traveler up as part of jibe prep. How far depends on the boat and the weather.

Obviously, this can be done later, when preping for the jibe. It's a little unconventional to sail that way, but he may have a reason or two that he likes.Ask him.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

which model 27and where is the trailer on your boat. on some of the early C&C 27's had end boom sheeting. the traveler is at the transom behind the tiller and very short and a very narrow stern . even when centered the main sheet will go up over the stern rail and lifelines to the boom. keeping the traveler to windward allows the a straighter line to the end of the boom and less chafe on the lifelines. latter models had mid boom sheeting not sure why you would on those models


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## dv7834 (Aug 30, 2020)

Minnewaska said:


> Betting on superstition. A skipper wins a race, accidentally doing something weird, and swears they need to do it every time. ?


Yes, I suspect that it may be superstition



overbored said:


> which model 27and where is the trailer on your boat. on some of the early C&C 27's had end boom sheeting. the traveler is at the transom behind the tiller and very short and a very narrow stern . even when centered the main sheet will go up over the stern rail and lifelines to the boom. keeping the traveler to windward allows the a straighter line to the end of the boom and less chafe on the lifelines. latter models had mid boom sheeting not sure why you would on those models


Mark IV, so its mid-boom sheeting.

I haven't been able to come up with a logical reason for setting the traveller that way when we fly the kite, but I'll ask him next time we race. I have a feeling the answer may be, "Because we win!"


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

Typically, when racing downwind, the traveler will be all the way down. You want the sail out as far as possible. On boats I race on, the sail will usually be plastered against the stays and shrouds. We will use the vang to keep the boom down. Generally, in a windward / leeward race, when we round the upper mark and head down, once the spinnaker goes up we will
Ease the backstay to let the mast mast move forward and help the spinnaker project more sail area
Ease the outhaul to put more draft into the main sail
Ease the main halyard to put more draft into the main sail
Ease the main sheet and lower the traveler all the way to get the main as far out as possible
Put the van on to keep the boom from rising
If the wind is light one crew will push the boom out.

Before a gibe we will center the traveler. If it's breezy we will pull the main sheet in as we gibe and ease it after the gibe. If the wind is light we will just push the broom across and then lower traveler. 

This is on a 1988 C&C 35 mark III. We fly asymmetric spinnakers with a removable bowsprit.

Barry


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

A short cabin top traveler becomes useless as soon as you are eased off past a close reach and which time the vang takes over twist control.

I can't think of a good reason why you would want the traveller all the way to weather. (Other than in really light air perhaps) On the other hand I can think of good reasons why you do NOT want to do that. If you are on a run, you will have the boom eased all the way out so it is just off the shrouds. If the traveller is on the leeward side or even on centerline, that ensures that in the event of an accidental gybe the boom will also stop short of the shrouds on the other side.If the traveller is all the way to the high side, the boom will go farther, and potentially hit the shrouds. Also, having the traveler centerline or below allows the main trimmer to control the gybe with the sheet, cushioning the gybe. With the traveler on the high side that is more difficult to do.

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## dv7834 (Aug 30, 2020)

So I asked him. He said that having the traveller to weather opens the slot more between the main and spinnaker. I'm not really convinced, but I can't argue with his racing results. He said I'm free to move it to leeward during a race if we're well ahead and to watch the knot meter.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Is he using the vang? is the sheet at the end of its travel and the pulling in the traveler is the same as pulling in the sheet. looks like it worked in the past so he just does the same thing as before because it worked.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

dv7834 said:


> He said that having the traveller to weather opens the slot more between the main and spinnaker.


Downwind?


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

dv7834 said:


> So I asked him. He said that having the traveller to weather opens the slot more between the main and spinnaker. I'm not really convinced, but I can't argue with his racing results. He said I'm free to move it to leeward during a race if we're well ahead and to watch the knot meter.


Are you reaching or running? Sailing deep the "slot" isn't really a thing since there is no attached flow coming off the leech of the spinnaker or the mainsail. At this point, there is no aerodynamic benefit from the slot. You simply need to expose as much sail area as possible to the wind. Sometimes referred to as "Barn Door mode".

On the other hand if you are reaching, above 140° or so, there is potentially laminar flow over the whole spinnaker, if it is trimmed correctly of course. In that case there is benefit to the slot effect between the main and the spinnaker.

That said, having the traveler way above centerline shouldn't make any difference since the vang should be controlling the mainsail twist, and the main sheet will control angle of attack. The only exception is if the wind is really light and you are trying to get more twist, but you don't have a rigid vang to support the boom and you want to minimize downward force on the boom from the mainsheet.

At the end of the day though, it's his boat, and that's the way he wants to sail it, and it seems to work for him. Just be aware of the potential hazards of that technique I mentioned above if the conditions get a bit stronger.

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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

I like this discussion. "Doesn't seem to be the right way to do it, but, it his his boat". If this were a discussion about the captain's choice of anchor, we would be throwing him overboard (with his poor choice of anchor wrapped around his ankles).


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Barquito said:


> I like this discussion. "Doesn't seem to be the right way to do it, but, it his his boat". If this were a discussion about the captain's choice of anchor, we would be throwing him overboard (with his poor choice of anchor wrapped around his ankles).


I have raced on many different boats over the years, and often encountered what seemed like odd techniques demanded by skippers. Some made some sense, and some not so much. The conclusion I came to was that I was a guest on their boat, so I would just bite my tongue and go along with it. If I really didn't like the program I just wouldn't sail with them again.

The exception to that philosophy came as I gained experience and became a bit of a foredeck "specialist" and was being invited on boats specifically for that role. I told skippers that if they wanted me to run the foredeck I would run it MY way, not theirs. If they were not OK with that then they should find someone else. Obviously I needed to adapt to idiosyncrasies specific to the boat, but there is nothing worse than a skipper sitting at the back of the boat trying to micro manage the bow! I had a T-shirt that said "Shut Up and Drive!" On the back.

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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Skipper's explanation of traveler position makes no sense, since the boom could be moved to the same position "slot-wise" by having the traveler to leeward with the sheet pulled in a bit. It's his boat, but that only makes him the captain, not necessarily right.


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## dv7834 (Aug 30, 2020)

SchockT said:


> Are you reaching or running? Sailing deep the "slot" isn't really a thing since there is no attached flow coming off the leech of the spinnaker or the mainsail. At this point, there is no aerodynamic benefit from the slot. You simply need to expose as much sail area as possible to the wind. Sometimes referred to as "Barn Door mode".
> 
> On the other hand if you are reaching, above 140° or so, there is potentially laminar flow over the whole spinnaker, if it is trimmed correctly of course. In that case there is benefit to the slot effect between the main and the spinnaker.
> 
> ...


On the lake we sail, we're often flying a spinnaker on close to a beam reach and the winds are generally light.

I agree with what most have said here; but hey, it's his boat, we win our races more often than not, and I'm just happy to be on a boat. But I did pose the question originally to see if I was missing something vis a vis main sail trim, and it seems from your answers that I wasn't, so thanks to all who contributed.


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## dv7834 (Aug 30, 2020)

Minnewaska said:


> Downwind?


Downwind, yes, reaching or running. The traveller shall go to weather, amen.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

our traveler is 10' long so at 4 to one, that would be hauling on 40 feet of line every time I go downwind. think I will pass on his method. most of the time I see this type of odd sail handling it is because he learned it that way from another skipper that learned it from another skipper ... because he owns the boat the crew does not challenge his odd way of sailing his boat.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

dv7834 said:


> So I asked him. He said that having the traveller to weather opens the slot more between the main and spinnaker. I'm not really convinced, but I can't argue with his racing results. He said I'm free to move it to leeward during a race if we're well ahead and to watch the knot meter.


OMG, what a revelation! I bet the AC guys never figured this out!

It's his boat.


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## jeremiahblatz3 (Jul 3, 2018)

Doing some gymnastics here to try to be charitable; perhaps the vang is crappy (not enough purchase? frozen blocks?), inconvenient to get to, or likely to rip out of/break the boom?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

There may be some clues into the skipper's thinking. First of all, it has been stated that:

" On the lake we sail, we're often flying a spinnaker on close to a beam reach and the winds are generally light." and " He said that having the traveller to weather opens the slot more between the main and spinnaker."

There actually is merit to that. This is probably a symmetrical spinnaker. In light air on something approaching a beam reach, on a boat with a large chute and small high aspect mainsail, it would a correct priority to keep the slot open, which is harder to do with a symmetrical chute and might require over trimming the boom slightly and having lots of twist near the head of the mainsail.

In light air there is also likely to be a bigger gradient wind induced apparent wind angle difference between the deck and the masthead than in a more moderate breeze. The skipper may therefore want a lot of twist for that reason as well.

With a cabin top mounted traveler, on a beam reach the center line of boom may be over the leeward end of the traveler, so keeping the traveler centered may produce too much vertical force and result in less twist than desired. Therefore pulling the traveler t to windward would make sense given that collection of factors.

Jeff


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## dv7834 (Aug 30, 2020)

Jeff_H said:


> There may be some clues into the skipper's thinking. First of all, it has been stated that:
> 
> " On the lake we sail, we're often flying a spinnaker on close to a beam reach and the winds are generally light." and " He said that having the traveller to weather opens the slot more between the main and spinnaker."
> 
> ...


Symmetrical spinnaker, mast head rig, traveller is at seat level at the front of the cockpit.

I've really appreciated the comments from everyone.


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## Flyrod1 (Aug 17, 2020)

Skipper made you an offer...take him up on it.

Next time you are well ahead do it your way and watch the speed difference.


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