# How to secure a baby



## Buchido

Hi Everyone,

We recently welcomed our son into the World and we have done a few day sails but one of us always needed to be holding him which makes some tasks difficult and impossible in foul weather. So now the missus has tasked me with devising a method to keep him safe and secure when we are sailing (and hopefully I figure it out before this sailing season ends!). I've read a number of posts and articles about people sailing with kids and young kids but not babies. The difference being we can't just put up a lee cloth in the V-berth as he can't even sit up yet and would be thrown around as we tack back and forth.

My original thought was lashing his car seat to the dinnette table but thought the heel angle might be uncomfortable for him and I'm not sure how sturdy the table is (since it comes off to form a bed). Then I thought I could fashion some sort of hanging swing but I would be worried he would bump into things in the cabin. So my current idea is to somehow secure a basinet on the floor in the centre of the cabin where the motion is the least but this would restrict movement of traffic. So before I proceeded any further I thought it best to ask the sailing community what has been done before and worked well for them. I don't want to be re-inventing the rudder.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Steve

BTW we have a Catalina 27 Dinnette series in case that helps.


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## Faster

Two words:

Baby Bjorn

Baby carriers developed together with Medical Experts

Our Daughter-in-law did foredeck with our granddaughter in a carrier from them.. snug, secure, with you at all times. Early on (weeks old) she had something simpler.. a cloth carrier whose name I can't recall.. will add when it comes to me. EDIT: Baby Buddha http://www.babybuddha.ca/

We did use the car seat idea a few times, but heeling was a bit problematic. Otherwise for our son, who fortuitously always seemed happy to sleep when we needed to run the boat, we made a small secure berth with a lee cloth and lots of blankets/padding to keep him put.


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## kwaltersmi

We use the car seat with handle in the upright position to act as roll bar in the unlikely event that the seat tips over. Luckily, both our quarter berth and salon floor offer a spot where the car seat can be "wedged" in place with a rolled up towel or pillow on either side to keep it steady and stable. 

If I were you, I'd keep looking for a safe spot to set your car seat. The handle/roll bar, harness seat belt and padding are all good safety features and the seat itself is presumably comfortable and familiar to baby.


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## MITBeta

I second the car seat idea. We had my son out last year starting at 4 months old in a Rhodes 19 in his car seat. Most of the time he was still held, but it was nice to be able to have a place to put him down. 

My second thought is a Pack 'n Play in the salon. Room to move around, high sides, place to put lots of pillows, blankets, etc. for cushioning if needed.


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## T37Chef

Car seat and a pack and play. I don't like the idea of the baby bijon thing, what if you slip and slam your body weight into a bulkhead or something?


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## Cruisingdad

Car seat and pack and play. I wrote a long blog about this somewhere. Also, devise a board to go across the V berth to keep him from coming out. We made a 2 foot high board that securely lashed in. Pad the side with pillows. Keep him/her in the cockpit with you if you can in the car seat.

Believe it or not, this is the easy time. When they can walk (ie around 3ish), that is when it really gets "fun". Had our oldest on board at 5 days old. You can do it.

Brian


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## T37Chef

Hey Brian


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## Cruisingdad

T37Chef said:


> Hey Brian


Hello T - How are you? Still LOVE my knives!!!

Brian


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## Buchido

Thanks everyone for their suggestions. We have since decided to go with a chair we got that has a nice wide base with rubber non-slip feet. It will be more comfortable then his car seat, he can still be strapped in and should stay put even when heeling. We also have a pack and play that should fit down in the cabin where we can wedge it in place with some cushion for his naps. We don't want to install any hooks or the like as this phase won't last long.

As for the baby carrier/bjorn idea we're always concerned about accidentally slipping and I don't think we could wear one when we have our PFD on (not that we are likely to fall over board but you never know)

Thanks again.


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## LinekinBayCD

It's been a while as my three sones are all bigger than me now, we always used a car seat for the infants. We would lash it down as best we could in the cockpit or under the dodger at times. If it was peacefully we'd let them sleep there or at other times just put them in the v-berth surrounded by pillows.


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## Brigala

I am about ready to have a heart attack at all these suggestions of using a car seat on a boat. You might as well tie your baby to the boat anchor.

The baby MUST be wearing a PFD on board. There is no way a baby can sit in a car seat with a PFD, and even if they did, the PFD wouldn't keep the car seat from sinking to the bottom of the water.

Please don't ever ever ever ever ever put your baby in a car seat on a boat. I don't know much about sailing, but I know that much. If you can't find a way to safely transport the baby with a PFD and _not_ strapped to a boat anchor, don't take the baby on board.

I've only taken my babies on boats a couple of times (never sailing, once in a canoe and once on some kind of motorboat thing in Hawaii), both times they wore their own PFDs and sat on my lap. That's not practical of course for being out all day long or overnight, but it works for a couple of hours.

You might try hanging something like this in your boat: http://us.kanoe.com/ - if you can find a place to hang it where it won't bang against stuff as the boat moves.


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## hellosailor

Steve-
Consider some strips of wide adhesive velcro, and using them to add padding (yoga mat, camping pad, exercise mat) in the area where you'll be stowing the baby "just in case".
Vecro, btw, is often underappreciated. A couple of large patches, allowed to bond overnight before being used, can help secure a LOT of weight.

Brigala-
"The baby MUST be wearing a PFD on board. There is no way a baby can sit in a car seat with a PFD," I'd suggest you haven't spent much time in the water with PFDs. Very few of them will keep anyone's face or mouth out of the water, and those that will are so bulky (typically Type1) that they are shunned. I have doubts that any "baby PFD" would do anything except, sadly, make body recovery faster. (Which is all _any _PFD will do for _anyone _in icy waters.) A car seat might indeed work BETTER since the seat will probably orient the baby's head and face above the water, and the seat itself may have net bouyancy, especially if it is rotomolded plastic and hollow, or uses closed cell foam. You can't begin to guess without putting the specific seat in the water.

To abuse a phrase, there's no need to go overboard with safety.


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## T37Chef

of course there is a risk in taking the baby on a boat, or anyone who cannot swim for that matter. I believe the risk of keeping the baby in the car seat far outweighs the risk of not. 

I'm not advocating you keep the baby in the cockpit, in the car seat, under severe weather conditions...they should be down below with supervision, that's where something like a pack and play or another secure area can be used. On our boat, we used the pilot berth, perfect area as it was easily secured with a mesh Lee cloth and padded with pillows or the pack and play in the salon which kept it low and centered which gave a comfortable motion if the seas were rough.


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## svHyLyte

When my daughter was just an infant we slung a hammock with foot and head end spreaders from an adjustable pole made from a cut-down swimming pool cleaning pole that extended between the mast and the aft salon bulkhead just above the table. The pole fit into chocks and could be locked in place. I did this to minimize the length of the suspenders to keep pendulum action to a minimum. Later, when she got a bit older, we hung a "Baby Bouncer" seat from the overhead with a length of shock cord to an eye-pad fastened to the deck below to limit swing. On deck, we had her in a car-seat lashed to the front bulk-head in the cockpit and she was quite happy with the arrangement.

When she was tired, or when the two of us were needed to maneuver that yacht, we put her in the V-Berth with a mesh screening across the head of the berth to disallow her to escape and pillows against the sides for padding when we tacked. With "colors" and toys she was alway quite happy with that arrangement. As she got older we'd always announce "tacking" in a loud voice and she'd scoot across the berth to the High--soon to become low-side of the berth. (Once I had to "crash tack" to avoid some moron on a jet ski and there was an audible thump from the V-berth followed by loud wailing. My wife blew below and soon emerged with a very unhappy little girl who crossly declared "You didn't say tacking Daddy. You're a very bad Daddy!")

Later she'd help "Otto" and me "drive the boat".

We do miss those daze...


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## Cruisingdad

Brigala said:


> I am about ready to have a heart attack at all these suggestions of using a car seat on a boat. You might as well tie your baby to the boat anchor.
> 
> The baby MUST be wearing a PFD on board. There is no way a baby can sit in a car seat with a PFD, and even if they did, the PFD wouldn't keep the car seat from sinking to the bottom of the water.
> 
> Please don't ever ever ever ever ever put your baby in a car seat on a boat. I don't know much about sailing, but I know that much. If you can't find a way to safely transport the baby with a PFD and _not_ strapped to a boat anchor, don't take the baby on board.
> 
> I've only taken my babies on boats a couple of times (never sailing, once in a canoe and once on some kind of motorboat thing in Hawaii), both times they wore their own PFDs and sat on my lap. That's not practical of course for being out all day long or overnight, but it works for a couple of hours.
> 
> You might try hanging something like this in your boat: http://us.kanoe.com/ - if you can find a place to hang it where it won't bang against stuff as the boat moves.


Hi Brigala,

Welcome to Sailnet.

I understand your concerns. From a non-sailing point of view, what you are talking about makes sense. However, it is important to remember that on most of these boats where this advice is to be used, the danger is not flipping over. Our keel on our boat probably weighs more than your car... just our keel. My boat weighs in circa 26-28000 lbs. In anything but very severe conditions, you are not flipping it over. THose conditions are offshore conditions in what would likely be hurricane+ strength winds. That is teh same for most sail boaters. No way I would EVER put a kid in a childseat in a canoe, kayak, or small motor boat. But the only thing those have in comon with larger sailing vessels is that they all float (most of the time). Comparrison ends there.

When a storm rolls up, the kiddo is down below. We constructed a V-berth set up that is more padded than most cribs. We also put him on the compression post lashed into his car seat. My danger and concern is not the baby going ino the water. THe issue is them hurtin themselves in a rolling and tossing boat. Also, when bad weather comes up, they are in a lifejacket.

Since you are new, I would suggest investing in a top of the line jacket for you child. I have many times reccomended Mustang with crotch strap and head floatation. These jackets will right the child, without effort, face up in the water. Many jackets do not properly do this. They also haver a strap on top to jerk them out of the water when they go in. Notice I said when. Here is an example of the jacket I am referring to:










Falling overboard underway is not the big issue for infants and toddlers. THey will be under extreme adult supervision at that time and sailboats are, in general, pretty child proof. It is at the dock that both of our kids have gone over (generally when running down it). That is where you chief danger will lie. I ALWAYS keep a jacket on them at the dock until they were very avid swimmers. As far as the sailboat, no one will sail out into foul weather with a kid on board. Not fun for the parent or the child.

Be very thoughtful about your water temps up there. Last I was on Puget SOound (about two weeks ago I think), temps were 49-51 degrees. That is cold enough to kill an adult in minutes. Assuming no stroke when you hit the water, I have been told 3-5 minutes. I cannot verify this, but that is the "dock-talk". I think we lose what, 6 people/year (adults) who jump into the COlumbia on a bright warm day and hit that cold water and go into total shock and don't come back up.

When sailing, we would often take our kids out of the car seat and let them play around down below or sometimes in the cockpit. Our rules are that down below, they do not have to wear a jacket. Top side, always. If weather turns questionsable, everyone is sporting a jacket.

Here is a Pic of our V-berth. When they were younger, we constructed a crib side that latched into the opening from the V-Berth. The only issue with this is that wne the seas climb, that berth becomes un-useable because the bow jumps off the waves and anyone forward of the mast will likely become airborne. The fix for this is to put them close to the compression post or in the aft berth.










Feel free to ask questions. Glad to have you around. BTW, a car seat does not sink like a anchor. Drop your in the water and you will see. We did (no baby inside). It floated suprsingly well, but would be terrible situation for the child as I would assume their head would go under water. THat is why when transiting between boat and dock, they should have a jacket on (the appropriate jacket).

All the best,

Brian


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## anthemj24




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## Brigala

Ok, When I said "always" in a PFD I wasn't really thinking about down in the cabin. The law around here (and I suppose most places) exempts children in the cabin from wearing PFDs and I have to assume there's a reason (I suppose if a child is in the cabin when the boat goes down, the PFD will do very little to protect them). I was envisioning the cockpit when I was saying that.

And yes, my child always wears a PFD on the docks. We have one similar to the ones that are pictured, although now that she's 30 lbs I need to find a new one.

I disagree that the main point of a PFD, especially for a small child, is to make body recovery easier. If a child falls overboard, whether that's off the deck of the boat or off a dock, a PFD will keep the child from sinking and make it easier to quickly retrieve the child out of the water. Hopefully within seconds. I have lived in (and swam in and boated in - though not sailed in) the pacific northwest my entire life and I am painfully aware of how quickly hypothermia sets in. A typical PFD will do nothing for that except hopefully make it easier for someone to pull you out of the water before it happens. 

A car seat will not float with a baby strapped inside it. I am positive it will sink. I spend a lot of time with car seats because I'm a certified car seat tech, and although I admit I haven't thrown a lot of car seats in the water (hmm... maybe I've just found a new use for expired/crashed seats - mythbuster style!) I am quite familiar with their construction and I can't think of any except maybe one that *might* have a chance of not dragging your child into the depths immediately. The amount of foam in a car seat, if present at all, is NOT enough to keep it buoyant, I am sure. Even in a cabin I am very concerned about something that will make a child sink even faster, and make the child even harder to pull back to the surface quickly, than the child would with no floatation device at all. 

There has GOT to be some kind of solution for keeping an infant from bouncing around the cabin that doesn't involve using heavy-duty straps and buckles (which, by design are a bit difficult to unfasten) to strap the child to something heavy that will sink like a rock. And if there isn't, perhaps it's time to invent something and market it.


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## Cruisingdad

Brigala said:


> Ok, When I said "always" in a PFD I wasn't really thinking about down in the cabin. The law around here (and I suppose most places) exempts children in the cabin from wearing PFDs and I have to assume there's a reason (I suppose if a child is in the cabin when the boat goes down, the PFD will do very little to protect them). I was envisioning the cockpit when I was saying that.
> 
> And yes, my child always wears a PFD on the docks. We have one similar to the ones that are pictured, although now that she's 30 lbs I need to find a new one.
> 
> I disagree that the main point of a PFD, especially for a small child, is to make body recovery easier. If a child falls overboard, whether that's off the deck of the boat or off a dock, a PFD will keep the child from sinking and make it easier to quickly retrieve the child out of the water. Hopefully within seconds. I have lived in (and swam in and boated in - though not sailed in) the pacific northwest my entire life and I am painfully aware of how quickly hypothermia sets in. A typical PFD will do nothing for that except hopefully make it easier for someone to pull you out of the water before it happens.
> 
> A car seat will not float with a baby strapped inside it. I am positive it will sink. I spend a lot of time with car seats because I'm a certified car seat tech, and although I admit I haven't thrown a lot of car seats in the water (hmm... maybe I've just found a new use for expired/crashed seats - mythbuster style!) I am quite familiar with their construction and I can't think of any except maybe one that *might* have a chance of not dragging your child into the depths immediately. The amount of foam in a car seat, if present at all, is NOT enough to keep it buoyant, I am sure. Even in a cockpit I am very concerned about something that will make a child sink even faster, and make the child even harder to pull back to the surface quickly, than the child would with no floatation device at all.
> 
> There has GOT to be some kind of solution for keeping an infant from bouncing around the cabin that doesn't involve using heavy-duty straps and buckles (which, by design are a bit difficult to unfasten) to strap the child to something heavy that will sink like a rock. And if there isn't, perhaps it's time to invent something and market it.


I am not advocating a child seat in replacement for a life preserver. I am advocating a secure place to keep the child. Good luck getting a child seat and a good life preserver on.

The principle damage, up above or down below, is them banging their head. They do not have adult balance. There is very, very little risk of a fixed keel boat capsizing in condition most of us would venture out in.

Our car seat did not sink. It floated long enough to get it out. Our child was not in it. I would hate for that to happen, as I stated earlier. But the odds of that happening versus them banging their head or being free to wander and falling overboard are significatly greater.

We used this dome contraption down below that was netted on top. I cannot remember the name of it but did a write up on here or other forums a while back. It was awesome if placed in the Vberth.

In bad weather, down below or up above, everyone has a jacket on. I also want to impress that not all life jackets are made equal. You really need a jacket that has a crotch strap and a head flotation. The mustangs seen above will flip the child to head up and out of the water. Many regular life preservers are not great at that, if they work at all. Believe me, safety on our boat is our number one concern.

The mustangs as described above have several differnt weght levels. I think it goes up to about 80lbs flotatoin. There is an infant, young child, and older child version if memory serves. We generally give our away to other families when they are outgrown (esp if they don't have what we feel is the proper jacket for kids).

This is a good discussion. Your concerns are valid. But what I am suggesting has worked for us and most long distance sailors. I would not suggest this for other smaller boats and certainly not anything with much of a tendancy to flip.

Thank you again for adding to the discussion.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad

By the way, I never said the PFD was to make reccovery easier. I said the proper PFD was for righting a child head up. The crotch strap and handle on top allows you to grab them quickly without them slipping out of it. I suggest trying any jacket out in a pool and see how it works first. We did.

Again, great discussion.

Brian


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## cupper3

This couple is sailing around the world for the second time, this time with a 2 year old and a 9 month old.

You may pick up some hints from their blog.

bumfuzzle | living, sailing, procreating


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## Brigala

Now you all have me trying to think of a way to make a protective, floating seat for use as a child restraint on a boat. LOL.

I did not mean to "step in it" with my very first post on the forum. I'm sorry about that!

I, too, have concerns about the way sailboats move and children banging around inside them. At this point my youngest child is only just under two, and won't be out on the water until _at least_ next summer (not taking her on a sailboat at ALL until we have some real sailing experience, and we haven't even bought our boat yet). Hopefully by age three she'll be able to sit in a well-padded V-berth when conditions warrant protecting her from the boat's movement. I hadn't really thought before about how to keep an infant safe on a sailboat since I've only taken infants on other types of boats where the _primary_ concern was floatation.

A hammock is the only thing I can think of for an infant but that requires you to have an appropriate place to hang it so I can see how it wouldn't be a solution for every boat. At this point I think you all have me convinced (unintentionally I'm sure) that, personally, a sailboat is no place for my infant (which is no big concern for me since I don't have an infant at the moment).

Clearly what is needed is some kind of protective bed or restraint system that is buoyant. Although some of the lighter-weight car seats probably would float without a baby in them, I am pretty sure they'd all go down like a rock once a child was strapped into them. I suspect maybe the Combi Coccoro might have enough foam in it to keep it on the surface, but it would almost definitely float with the baby's face down in the water and the back of the car seat up in the air. Which would be better than nothing I suppose if rescue was immediate but in any kind of emergency situation involving more than just "baby overboard" it would be pretty bad.

Looks like it's time to start thinking of floating baby restraint/protection systems. What would you all prefer? An inflatable system (so it could be stored easily without taking up space) or a system made out of foam which wouldn't require any set-up (ready to strap baby in at a moment's notice, no risk of getting a hole in it and making it worthless)? I already have some design ideas floating around in my head.


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## Cruisingdad

I would not put my child in anything that did not already have "foam" in it. I also do not think the auto-inflates are USCG approved for children unless they have changed the rules.

My first child was on board at 5 days old. He has more miles under him than most the people on this forum. A kid and the right boat is no big deal. Promise. I do think that learning the boat first before throwing Little Johnny aboard is a smart move. Not that it necessarily endagers the child, but it allows you and the spouse to get a better grip on how to sail and master working together without distractions.

Be aware, when sailing with kids, you are basicaly singlehanding (sailing solo). One will be pretty involved witht eh kids while the other is the primary captain. Ii am sure there are exceptions to hat rule, but I don't know them. A s such, it is important both you and spouse are proficient independently on the boat.

Also, teach your kid to swim ASAP. I'm not sure they're ever too young to start. That will relieve a lot of your concerns.

Sailing with children is all about attitude. It is not the baby's atitude, it is mom and dad's. You can make it work. Please don't sweat it. Just be cautious and safety minded, but learn to relax and have a good time. The relax and good time part is more about confidence in yourselves and your abilities on the vessel than the issues with the kiddo. And just a warning, the infant age is the EASY age. You put them, they stay. When they are two-three, that is where it really becomes interesting because they can climb over crib sides, up companionways, over combings, etc. The infant age is a piece of cake.

BTW, it is all worth it. Best decision we ever made taking our kids cruising and we leave again soon. Here's what you have to look forward to...



























































































I could keep posting these for hours....

Brian


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## T37Chef

I have never felt the V Berth area to be the best place to be in rough conditions, at least what I have experieneced here on the chesapeake, steep short chop. Rather, somewhere in the center of the boat, and as low as possible = better motion. As I said earlier, the pack and play in the salon or our pilot berth was perfect for this. I've been up in our V berth in the rough chop and it was not fun.


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## Brigala

I agree that a pack N play seems like a good solution if you can find a place to put it.  The boats we're looking at right now are small enough I'm not sure I could find a place for the pack n play.


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## bljones

Strap two fenders to the car seat, and some weight to the base to act as ballast and keep it floating upright in the rare, rare, rare event that the seat may end up overboard unattended.

If no room for a pack n play type kid pen, a hammock seems like a great idea for an infant, and would not need a large space to be hung.


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## MITBeta

We have taken a car seat on fin keel daysailors (Rhodes 19) as a place to put an infant if a 2nd set of hands was needed in a pinch. HOWEVER, we never strapped our kid into it. He could sit in the seat with his PFD on just fine. And depending on your definition of infant, the straps are for a crash, not to keep the kid from getting out of the seat. Another good option is the seat Cruisingdad shows here:



Cruisingdad said:


> Brian


Not nearly as heavy as a car seat, but a good restraint, with or without the strap on.


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## elspru

Somewhat related, in terms of securing a baby for a life boating,
by making sure they are prepared in case they do fall in the water.

Children have swiming reflexes, such as holding breath, and moving limbs in swiming from motion from birth.
With regular practice they can incrementally improve their swimming abilities, 




initial stages are conditioning, such as pouring water over the face, to trigger the breath holding reflex.
By 6-24 months children can be trained to flip themselves on their back if they fall in the water,
as well as do several seconds swiming, by 3 they can alternate to get to shore. 





I think it's best to teach the kids personally, 
so they can learn at their own pace with the loving care of their parents.

In terms of "cold-shock" as someone was mentioning about cold water, 
this is something that is also completely dependentent on practice and conditioning.

For instance since I was an adolescent my friends and I would brake holes in the ice and go for dips in the winter. 
even swiming when it's only a thin layer that can be broken easily. 
Though to be safe it's best to keep winter-swims to under a minute, 
a properly conditioned person could have fine motor function even for 10 minutes,
and swim as long as 30 minutes even in freezing water with limb movement. 
Children have been known to recover from being hypothermacally unconscious for as long as an hour.

Main thing is to have rewarming after any hypothermic experience, preferably while dry,
if it is only mild, and the person is experienced, can passively raise own temperature,
if not, then may need active external heating such as other people, or sauna.
In case of severe hyopthermia (unconsciousness) active internal heating, 
such as hot humid air like cpr could work, in combination with others.

When my friends when for dips into the salty pool,
we would run back to the sauna to heat up afterwards.
For good self-passive heating, it's important to eat fats,
especially unsaturated fats like those in nuts and seeds.
Tumo "breath of fire" a rapid breathing meditation is also effective for rewarming.

In terms of physical conditioning, can do so with cool, and then cold showers,
which are healthy, improve immune and organ function anyways,
and lower the chances of you getting cold from a breeze.

I know some parents that did cold showers with their kids,
daily since they were very young till they did it themselves, 
and managed to avoid most (possibly all) childhood diseases.
they did it based on Porphyry Ivanov's teachings, who recomends ice cold water





Also note that the mammalian diving reflex is triggered by water under 21Celsius (70f) on the face.
So if doing water birth, it may be a good idea to have relatively (to western hot baths) chilly water,
If doing water conditioning that range would also be most useful for actually triggering the reflex.

edit to add:
note that water under 26 celcius for prolonged periods of time can induce hypothermia,
so likely some kind of compromise is best, likely over 26 and bellow body temperature (36).


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## bljones

Please note that the above post is all second hand information as the poster does not have children yet. Take the info provided with a large grain of salt.


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## Brigala

Having had a water birth... I can't imagine anything more uncomfortable than giving birth in a tub of _cold_ water. Just sayin'.


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## chrisncate

Regarding how to wake baby:


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## engineer_sailor

We've had success with the car seat down below in the cabin in our new to us Catalina 27 for our infant who loves the motion of sailing and the engine noise. Our two year old wears his Mustang Lil Legends and does pretty well. My wife and I both have inflatables and make a point to wear them both for safety and to set an example for the little ones. One debate is what to do with the infant when he is nursing topside. He should have a jacket on but nursing is difficult/impossible with jacket on. Also leaning towards a tether for the toddler and likely lifeline netting.

For naps, the v-berth has worked out nicely at anchor as there is no open space with the insert in. We use a battery powered white noise machine.


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## hellosailor

"One debate is what to do with the infant when he is nursing topside. He should have a jacket on but nursing is difficult/impossible with jacket on."

Well, one might suggest that if you can't do something safely someplace, do it someplace else. Let him nurse BELOW DECK not topside.


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## SailSnail

Baby Bjorn - great suggestion. Thanks!


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## Brent Swain

Birth Control and chastity both work well.


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## jimrafford

Brent Swain said:


> Birth Control and chastity both work well.


Very nice. What a piece of dung you continue to show your self to be.
Jim


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