# How much is fair to undercut on offer?



## Shortnsalty (Jun 8, 2010)

Hello all, we sold our Catalina 22 and after about two years we are looking for our second sailboat. I was wondering what everyone thinks is fair when it comes to making an offer. We all know you can offer anything you wish however I was looking for some realistic input from people that maybe know brokers or have bought and sold more than a few boats. Would you go 5k under for example? More? The boats we are looking at boats that are old either from the 60,s to 80,s. It seems to me sellers are always dreaming that their boats which are not even half restored are always worth 10-15k more than NADA guidelines.
Heres one example. Cape Dory 28 for sale ( "The engine will start only after prolonged grinding. I have had 2 independent mechanics assess it and both have indicated that they would start with an injection pump. However, at this point, I am not going to invest any more money in the boat, which is the reason the price is heavily discounted from what it would normally be.")
This to me sounds like "Needs new engine" which translates to 5k+ out of the gate and they are asking almost 14K for the boat.
Thanks in advance for any input.
P.S. As far as what we are looking for or to do with our 2nd boat it will be spending a year just day and weekend sailing out of our local inlet while fixing her up and plan only on trips to the Bahamas out of Florida after a year of refitting and learning to sail her. So yes the engine matters immensely.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Try again, I priced for curiosity (mine is fine) a replacement for my 18 HP in a 30 footer and the Motor alone is better than 9K then you have to Install or pay someone to do so. Another 2-4K budget for that. The reality is there are a lot of negative value boats out there. Im not saying this one is but consider that for a while when considering a fixer upper. There's a give away thread for a P-30 in this forum right now and a good friend was given a P34 a couple of years ago, new sails and hes racing it every week. Its an interesting and sometimes troubling market for used Boats out there.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

There is no fixed % or amount. You MUST ignore the asking price.

Look at what the boat is WORTH on the market. Subtract any repairs required and that is your starting point. I accept that working out the value of older boats is tough.

My current boat was advertised at what the owners had bought it for plus all the work they put in. They hoped to get their investment back but that was wildly optimistic. My first offer at 40% of the asking price was rejected outright. 3 months later they came back and we negotiated a deal at just above 40%.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Shortnsalty said:


> It seems to me sellers are always dreaming that their boats which are not even half restored are always worth 10-15k more than NADA guidelines y.


NADA has less than zero credibility when it comes to boat value. The only truly reputable guide (emphasis on guide) is Soldboats.com which is a division of Yachtworld.com and a paid subscription. Ask your broker to print comps..

A few years ago I collected some sold boat prices from our club members, my own boats and from a number of my customers, and compared BUC, NADA and Soldboats. NADA was obscenely off in outer space compared to _actual sale prices_. BUC was also pretty far off, often in excess of 25%, and Soldboats.com was actually correct on 58 out of the 61 sales I used. This to me means the vast majority of sales on Soldboats in my sample (North East USA) were reported correctly into the Soldboats.com database... Soldboats.com uses the actual selling price reported by the selling broker..


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

As a general rule, most boats that have a broker involved seemed to be priced 10 to 20% above the price that they sell for. I have been involved in deals where the boat sold for approximately half it's asking price and just heard about a deal where a very nice boat sold for around a quarter of the already discounted asking price. 

From your description there is no reason to assume that this boat needs a new engine since there are all kinds of reasons why an engine is hard to start that do not require a new engine. Frankly in most cases a hard starting diesel is the result of comparatively minor things. It's different if it won't start at all.

I do think you will be very disappointed with the Sailing ability of a Cape Dory after owning a Catalina 22.

Good luck with your search,
Jeff


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

So will anyone look up the selling price on soldboats.com for me? We can do it via PM.


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## Dos Equis (Nov 25, 2011)

Depends on condition, motivation and if a broker is involved comps on sold boats of that type. If all checks out good I would say hit them at 10% below asking price.
I find a lot of sellers are emotionally attached to their boat and can make bargaining insulting to them.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Maine Sail said:


> NADA has less than zero credibility when it comes to boat value. The only truly reputable guide (emphasis on guide) is Soldboats.com which is a division of Yachtworld.com and a paid subscription. Ask your broker to print comps..
> 
> A few years ago I collected some sold boat prices from our club members, my own boats and from a number of my customers, and compared BUC, NADA and Soldboats. NADA was obscenely off in outer space compared to _actual sale prices_. BUC was also pretty far off, often in excess of 25%, and Soldboats.com was actually correct on 58 out of the 61 sales I used. This to me means the vast majority of sales on Soldboats in my sample (North East USA) were reported correctly into the Soldboats.com database... Soldboats.com uses the actual selling price reported by the selling broker..


Not arguing that NADA is a good way to value a boat. There is a great big however.... NADA is used by the banks to value your boat, so, IF you have a boat that the average buyer would decide to mortgage then you are stuck with that figure.

Then you have the insurance companies to deal with. They like to sell you insurance for what the boat is worth...what's it worth? Well what did you pay for it? ...and so on...


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## Dos Equis (Nov 25, 2011)

Soldboats is the standard for brokers. I never list or show a boat without current comps from Soldboats.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> NADA has less than zero credibility when it comes to boat value. The only truly reputable guide (emphasis on guide) is Soldboats.com which is a division of Yachtworld.com and a paid subscription. Ask your broker to print comps..
> 
> A few years ago I collected some sold boat prices from our club members, my own boats and from a number of my customers, and compared BUC, NADA and Soldboats. NADA was obscenely off in outer space compared to _actual sale prices_. BUC was also pretty far off, often in excess of 25%, and Soldboats.com was actually correct on 58 out of the 61 sales I used. This to me means the vast majority of sales on Soldboats in my sample (North East USA) were reported correctly into the Soldboats.com database... Soldboats.com uses the actual selling price reported by the selling broker..


I have found the same. I did check out some discrepancies in Soldboats in some deals I had been involved with and found they had been slightly distorted by trade-ins or side deals for significant "extra" equipment (i.e. expensive dinghies) .... so while not completely accurate but not intentional, just variation in how the deal had been structured.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

PM me with year and model and an email address as I can't load pdf's to this site


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

RobGallagher said:


> Not arguing that NADA is a good way to value a boat. There is a great big however.... NADA is used by the banks to value your boat, so, IF you have a boat that the average buyer would decide to mortgage then you are stuck with that figure.
> 
> Then you have the insurance companies to deal with. They like to sell you insurance for what the boat is worth...what's it worth? Well what did you pay for it? ...and so on...


It may be different in Canada but .......
banks here do not generally make loans on any but newer and higher end boats and I have seen them use the lower NADA value as maximum loan value not boat value. They also sometimes use the survey valuation.

Insurance companies use the survey value unless they think it is BS. I have never had a valuation questioned by a bank or insurance companies in 5,573 surveys


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

In the US it's fairly common for banks that offer boat mortgages to accept vessels up to 25 yes Old. There are specialized lenders, of course, that will go older.

NADA and insurance values effect the market as much as Yachtworld sales reports. Not saying I like it or agree with it, but NADA and the survey is all the finance and insurance people seem to care about here in the US


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Take the word/personal feeling 'fair' out of your vocabulary and mind.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Reduce by 95%


You can always come up.


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## OldEagle (Nov 16, 2013)

> Take the word/personal feeling 'fair' out of your vocabulary and mind.


^This^
Anything you want to buy has 2 prices--the price you're willing to pay, and the price the seller is willing to accept. When they match, the deal occurs.

I'd figure out what you are willing to pay, and offer 10-20% less--irrespective of the asking price unless the asking price is already lower already what you're willing to pay.

If the asking price is already lower already what you're willing to pay, the only question is--are you misunderstanding what is being offered, or do you need to move fast to get a great deal?


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I did once had an owner say he would shoot a hole in it and sink it first. Even though his wife was begging him to take my offer. He thought his boat was gold. 

Best thing that ever happened to me as I got a much better deal just down the road.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

OldEagle said:


> ...
> If the asking price is already lower already what you're willing to pay, the only question is--are you misunderstanding what is being offered, or do you need to move fast to get a great deal?


Good post.

Educate yourself so that you're hitting the 'knowledge/reality' lobe in your brain rather than letting the 'emotional' lobe become too involved.
The selling and buying process/decision is very interesting.

Your strength will come from really knowing what will work for you. Think marriage proposal, but she floats...


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> Anything you want to buy has 2 prices--the price you're willing to pay, and the price the seller is willing to accept. When they match, the deal occurs.


So true. However, there is a confusing dynamic is boat sales. A lot of sellers, will take a while to realize they are not going to sell the boat for what they thought they were going to. So, if you offer an amount that is a lot below the asking price, and the seller has gotten a few similar offers, he/she may realize that is what the boat should be going for, and start dealing.


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## OldEagle (Nov 16, 2013)

> Think marriage proposal, but she floats...


Unlike a marriage proposal, placing an offer on a boat has the advantage that... the "hot/crazy matrix" is all internal to you, and, in theory, controllable...


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Offer what the boat is worth TO YOU. Unless it's a truly mass-market boat within a mass market the markets are generally too small to have a rational price. 

So look around, yes. Compare to comparable boats in your market. But in the end the price is not rational. It's what it is worth to you vs what it's worth to the seller. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

How long is a piece of string?
Your question depends on SO many things.
I offered very close to asking for my boat, it was one owner, had all the documentaion for EVERYTHING right down to the original bill of sale. The asking rice reflected the amount of brand new never installed gear like the tiller pilot and still in box gps and the nearly new stuff like a 2 year old Yamaha 9.9 HT electric start outboard.
Bottom had been stripped the fall beofre I bought it, Interprotected and new anti fouling AND the hull had just been repainted.
I didn't screw around, it was fairly priced and I wanted it given the condition, equipment and fair price.
The day I made an offer on my boat I looked at the same make and model that had rotten deck core in many areas and no new gear for almost the same price.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> Offer what the boat is worth TO YOU. k


I'd offer well under that and negotiate up to that. Certainly not the starting price.

Without sounding like a dork, the principles of a book that's very good are splattered over the Internet. Read them. If you don't buy a boat at the right price you may just end up a billionaire. "The Art of the Deal"

Mark


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Author of Art of the Deal Tony Schwartz. Donald Trump?s Ghostwriter Tells All | The New Yorker


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Author of Art of the Deal Tony Schwartz. Donald Trump?s Ghostwriter Tells All | The New Yorker


Thanks for the pointer. Fascinating reading!

And amazingly prophetic, this was published a year ago, July 2016.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Thanks for the pointer. Fascinating reading!
> 
> And amazingly prophetic, this was published a year ago, July 2016.


Although I agree with Schwartz in all his assertions, I fail to see how this perspective helps in negotiating to buy anything.

If the book itself was referenced then I might feel different.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Shortnsalty said:


> Hello all, we sold our Catalina 22 and after about two years we are looking for our second sailboat. I was wondering what everyone thinks is fair when it comes to making an offer. ....


What is fair is getting what you pay for, its all about value and nothing about asking price.

To sensibly buy a boat (or car or house...) you need to determine the value of the boat, and then that is your purchase price point. Early in the season, maybe pay a little over value, end of the season, definitely a little under. But the cornerstone of the offer is your determination of the boat's value. That value's relationship to the asking price is incidental at best, depending on the wisdom and intentions of the sellers which can vary widely.

Not all sellers consider the selling process a game that they want to pay. I for one don't care for the hassle that some buyers enjoy. When I list a car or boat for sale, I ask what I believe the car or boat is worth. Usually the first person who looks at the car or boat buys it, and at the asking price. They are getting a good deal, by getting what they are paying for. Often a tire-kicking buyer makes a low bid offer over the phone or by email, I say no, and tell them not to contact me again. And they find out that I actually mean it...Who needs the hassle?


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

albrazzi said:


> Although I agree with Schwartz in all his assertions, I fail to see how this perspective helps in negotiating to buy anything.
> 
> If the book itself was referenced then I might feel different.


Oh, I don't think the article about Schwartz helps in buying a boat, or anything else. I just wanted to thank Waterrat for pointing out an article that I did not know about and that I enjoyed reading.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I'd offer well under that and negotiate up to that. Certainly not the starting price.
> 
> Without sounding like a dork, the principles of a book that's very good are splattered over the Internet. Read them. If you don't buy a boat at the right price you may just end up a billionaire. "The Art of the Deal"
> 
> Mark


Well yes, that's just negotiating 101... The point is the offer is up to the buyer. Know what YOUR bottom line is. Start somewhat below this to give some negotiating room. But work from what the boat is worth to you, not some book price or 'rule' about offering less (or more).

If you think the boat needs a lot of upgrades, or already has a lot of bonuses, then factor that into your offer. Doesn't matter what other people think. It's what the boat is worth to you.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

My boat was listed at $89,000

My offer of $25,000 was accepted.

Of course I've put another $60,000 into it


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Oh, I don't think the article about Schwartz helps in buying a boat, or anything else. I just wanted to thank Waterrat for pointing out an article that I did not know about and that I enjoyed reading.


Thanks, and for helping me keep this thread from going political, you bought me some time:wink


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

albrazzi said:


> Thanks, and for helping me keep this thread from going political, you bought me some time:wink


:grin


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

You definitely can low ball if a boats been sitting on the market, but for a good well priced boat, it might not always work.

I've had 3 boat transactions this year, 2 purchases and a sale. All 3 boats started with an offer of exactly the asking price. 

The first boat I bought was a project boat. It was the cheapest of it's kind in the local market. The seller was very accommodating. The price was super fare. I just offered him what he was asking, no conditions. The project is turning out very nicely, mostly just labour, bolt on parts, paint and varnish.

The second boat was when I sold my boat. Bigger 35 footer. Rare ish, in high ish demand. I listed it at a price to sell, but wasn't going to let met myself get robbed either. First day I showed it, 3 folks made offers- all at asking price. I picked the offer that had the most reasonable conditions. The guy did the survey, survey found a few items he was dissatisfied with, so the guy counter offered at a discounted (but still reasonable)price. I happily accepted. If he had started with a low ball offer and a survey off the bat, I would have told him to take a hike. However, if he had started with a lowball offer and no survey, I would have accepted provided it was within a reasonable range.

The third boat was a bit over priced, compared to others on the market, but was local and I loved it. Plus it was over $10 000 less than I had budgeted for the purchase. I offered the guy full asking price, no conditions, so nobody else could scoop it up on me. I have no regrets, very happy with the boat.

You can definitely low ball on older less desirable boats, or expensive mass production boats but low balling on a nice, well priced boat you really want, might not have the desired effect. And I don't know why any one would bother making an offer on a boat they didn't really want.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Entertaining and Interesting discussion here. When I last bought I know I didn't spend the time to see what was Marina or Bank owned in my area before reaching out a bit. There's a nice Columbia 8.7 chained to the dock one pier over from where I am now, could probably be had for back slip rent. Food for thought.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I've had people make offers more than 15% below list on boats that I've sold. In each case I responded with a polite "no thank you" and no counter offer. Both boats sold at 90-95% of listed price. I also believe that means I priced them properly.

If the boat is of legitimate value, a lowball offer will simply be ignored. If you are not actually interested, good; you just saved both parties the trouble of a dance that would lead no where. If the boat is an older AWB in poor condition and of no particular interest, perhaps the asking price is nonsense.

Basically, the OP's question needed qualified. Good, properly priced boats generally sell at 100-85% of list price. Project boats, there's just no telling, and you may regret the cheap price. Finally, the boat you can get cheap will probably also resell even cheaper, if at all. If no body wanted it, make sure you understand why.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

How Much is She Worth ..... the toughest part of my job, thought you might like to hear this question from another angle.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

boatpoker said:


> My boat was listed at $89,000
> 
> My offer of $25,000 was accepted.
> 
> Of course I've put another $60,000 into it


BoatPoker makes a VERY good point. There are a limited number of sales per year of any given model and there can be tremendous variation in value and condition from boat to boat.

Once you settle on a boat see what other examples are going for (asking price), if possible find out what some have sold for and then be realistic about both the condition of the boat you're looking at and the likely condition of those other boats. Finally what is the seller's motivation (how long on the market, how popular is this model, about to pay winter storage, etc.).

You should end up with a range of what is reasonable to offer.

Remember good boats in good condition won't stay around long and there are likely to be multiple offers. If the boat has been sitting on the market for a long time there's probably a good reason.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

When looking for a boat I saw a lot of crap boats that the owners thought were "bristol." I eventually learned that if my assessment of the value of the boat was less than 80 percent of the seller's asking price, I would simply thank the broker and move on. A number of brokers probably felt that I was wasting their time, as I felt that most brokers (and several owners) were wasting mine.

After I made an offer on my boat, it went to survey. Several items that I had assumed in good faith were not problems turned out to be issues. Some of these items were addressed by the owner (like replacing all of the keel bolts), and for some items (like the inoperable VHF) price concessions were made. I ended up paying 80% of the PO's asking price.


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## Ho Rison (Oct 25, 2011)

Interested to read the answers you received to your question, Shortnsalty. 

I don't think there is a simple answer because owners have different expectations, as some respondents wrote. As I have never bought a mass produced boat, I have always asked myself what the boat is worth to me, assuming its condition is as stated, subject to survey. If/when my offer is accepted I have the boat surveyed ashore at my expense and valued by an independent broker. I then pass on any new information that suggests the accepted offer is too high to the vendor or broker and request a reduction in the purchase price to compensate me for the unforeseen expense involved.

There may be some value in this two stage approach for older used production boats that may need more work than is evident at first sight. Most owners won't know how much needs to be done to the boat to meet your particular requirements but this way you can start a conversation with them that may help them be more realistic as time progresses and new information become available. 

Ho Rison


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

One thing to keep in mind in regards to boats for sale in Florida - many owners are getting squeezed by high slip rental prices - every month they pay $300-400 per month - they get a little more desperate about selling


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## Cincy020 (Mar 19, 2013)

I asked the same question when buying a Catalina 25 on the association forum and got pretty much the same answer (Association Forum - Value (purchase price) of Catalina 25). The price isn't what they are asking, but what a willing buyer and willing seller are able to make a deal at.

When I sold my Catalina 22 and made the deal on my Catalina 25, I both bought and sold at 87% of the asking price. Even with mass produced boats, I found no exact comps and few comps that were close. I originally offered 75% of asking and worked my way up. For me, the big intangible was that the boat was located on my lake and two slips over from where my old boat was. So to me, buying from a fellow club member and buying a boat that was already in the water and could be sailed today was a huge plus (don't have to take my time/energy to tow a boat to the lake, rig, launch, etc.). So for me, coming up 10% (about $800 in my case) had nothing to do with the boat itself, but the convenience of being able to sail sooner.


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## msopkiw1 (Oct 9, 2012)

When dealing with a broker, ask for the "Boat Sold List." The all have them. This will tell you of how many of that boat were actually sold and the asking price and sold price. I like to ask for the last five years. This will give you a solid idea of what other boats have been listed at and really sold for. You may be surprised what you find out and brokers hate giving up this information. Tens of thousands of dollars in the difference. Best !


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I always say, offer exactly what you'd *like* to pay for the boat. Don't worry about what anyone else thinks that boat or an equivalent boat is worth. You can always go up, but in this buyer's market, any owner wishing to sell must understand that the purchaser (you) has no emotional involvement in the boat, like they do. Hey, we all think we have the bestest boat don't we? Whatever the seller thinks, the boat is only worth whatever someone will pay for it. Summer's coming to an end and few boats up north sell in the winter, which is another point in your favor. If the owner wants to hold out for more money, chances are it will be eaten up with the winter expenses.
Though it's always nice to make new friends, this is a business deal, first and foremost. Do not let your emotions get into this deal.


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## Shortnsalty (Jun 8, 2010)

Thank you all for the comments. Great info here. The problem we are having besides not knowing how these boats will sail in our "type" of sailing situation (local ocean) is the motors. The boats we are looking at are old boats from 5k to 20,000 k with ancient motors that let's be honest might run, however, are they going to carry us across to the Bahamas when we have a window which a lot of time means no wind?


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

It's harder if you haven't owned boats before to know what it realistically costs to bring a boat up to reasonable operating conditions for you. For me, this is the primary calculation. I do this first. Add it up, re-power, new sails, new bimini, new dodger, new plumbing, new electrical, new electronics, standing rigging issues, running rigging issues, hull issues, deck issues, keel issues, rudder/steering issues, cosmetic (wood, paint, etc), ...... almost ANY used boat will have one or more of these problems, most will have a lot of them.

Then figure out what the boat fixed up would be worth, I call this the "seaworthy price".

Market value = Seaworthy price - sum{all the fixes required to get there}.

It's amazing how many times you do this and discover Market Value < 0.

The issue is your definition of Seaworthy is likely different than mine. I'm picky, want everything to work and be safe. The seller maybe less so. Thus the gap in expectations, and why people don't see it the same way. 

New buyer, recommend you buy a well used boat that is in commission from a knowledgeable fastidious owner and pay up for it. You WILL underestimate time and effort to fix a wreck and be money in. I think most of us who have owned multiple boats have made this error at least once.

Good luck.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

capecodda said "Market value = Seaworthy price - sum{all the fixes required to get there}." I might be reading more into the equation than stated. Are you advocating subtracting the cost of new equipment from the selling price of a used boat? I go along with subtracting repair cost but not new stuff. It is a used boat. I expect the equipment to be used but functional. I wouldn't expect the seller to foot the bill for new sails. Might try to get him to adjust the price by maybe half the cost of new, or the cost of used in good condition unless the boat was presented as having poor sails. Same goes for any of the equipment.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Skipper Jer said:


> capecodda said "Market value = Seaworthy price - sum{all the fixes required to get there}." I might be reading more into the equation than stated. Are you advocating subtracting the cost of new equipment from the selling price of a used boat? I go along with subtracting repair cost but not new stuff. It is a used boat. I expect the equipment to be used but functional. I wouldn't expect the seller to foot the bill for new sails. Might try to get him to adjust the price by maybe half the cost of new, or the cost of used in good condition unless the boat was presented as having poor sails. Same goes for any of the equipment.


I hear ya Jer and you have a point. But if the sails are so shot they are not usable, you are buying new. If the motor frozen or has a bottom end problem, you are at least rebuilding. If the decks are leaking, you gotta fix it now, if the fresh water pump doesn't work, you need to rebuild or replace. Reflected in the price or not is the question, because the buyer is going to pay this money. For this reason, I like comparing seaworthy to seaworthy, cause it's to hard to compare one wreck to another. YMMV.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

My First Boat sold for what I paid for it 5 years later. If you look at this that way, all the money I put in was just spent.. All in all I was pleased on both sides, although the guy who bought it from me got a better deal than I did:crying

My current Boat I played hard to get, offered down until the seller would back away then made the deal. It was pretty informal more of a long distance discussion he didn't have another interested party and (said he) was going with a broker next and that would be a $3500 hit for him (Broker minimum) so I think I took advantage of that pretty well.

Again this will be a better Boat when I sell than when I bought. Maybe I need to be a better buyer, but each time I bought what I wanted after shopping pretty good so I think I choose well.
So to agree with many posts there is no simple math just do the best you can.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

capecodda said:


> I hear ya Jer and you have a point. But if the sails are so shot they are not usable, you are buying new. If the motor frozen or has a bottom end problem, you are at least rebuilding. If the decks are leaking, you gotta fix it now, if the fresh water pump doesn't work, you need to rebuild or replace. Reflected in the price or not is the question, because the buyer is going to pay this money. For this reason, I like comparing seaworthy to seaworthy, cause it's to hard to compare one wreck to another. YMMV.


And these are the items I worry about. We will soon be looking at sailboats much larger than we have ever owned and also more complicated. I'm at quandary about how to make an offer. I would like to verify that all the equipment functions prior to making an offer and a survey. This is my concern. If I make an offer assuming all the listed equipment functions, the offer is accepted so we then go forward with a survey, sea trial and short haul only to find out the engine is on its last leg, the radar is shot, the water maker makes sea water, the refrig barely can keep stuff cool let alone freeze, decks are soggy and on and on and on. So I ask the seller to adjust the price based on the faults. He tells me NO. Now I'm out close to a grand. How does one avoid this situation?


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Skipper Jer said:


> And these are the items I worry about. We will soon be looking at sailboats much larger than we have ever owned and also more complicated. I'm at quandary about how to make an offer. I would like to verify that all the equipment functions prior to making an offer and a survey. This is my concern. If I make an offer assuming all the listed equipment functions, the offer is accepted so we then go forward with a survey, sea trial and short haul only to find out the engine is on its last leg, the radar is shot, the water maker makes sea water, the refrig barely can keep stuff cool let alone freeze, decks are soggy and on and on and on. So I ask the seller to adjust the price based on the faults. He tells me NO. Now I'm out close to a grand. How does one avoid this situation?


Jer, you are right, that is a risk. But the only thing that's worse is buying it and incurring all these costs which far exceed the survey cost.

It's good to try and do the pre-survey yourself or with a knowledgeable friend. Some easy tells for me are: messy/dirty bilge, messy wiring not dressed and fastened down, messy greasy engine room, avoid any boat that's been sitting for a long time, really old electronics, really old cracked hoses, etc. I also like to find out about the current owner. You can infer a LOT about a boat by interviewing the owner. Knowledgeable, heavy user, lots of experience, can tell you about fixing stuff, etc...strong buy signal. Owner lost interest, boat sat for years in or out of the water, recently purchased but decided they don't like sailing, no clew owner that neither fixes things themselves nor is willing to spend money at a good yard....run away.

That said, the working assumption on any listing through a broker, is that if the equipment is listed that it is in "serviceable condition." The price should reflect that fact. If found not serviceable, then you normally have grounds for negotiation. But if the owner is disinterested, not involved, not knowledgeable, you will loose the price/cost of repair debate out of the PO's incompetence IMHO.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

I'd try to get an idea of what budget you are comfortable with in sailaway condition, after you have done all of your personal upgrades. The total shebang, so to speak.
Some boats require more than others.
Some have serious but easily fixed problems.
Some aren't worth fixing.
Some are turnkey.

Maybe also put a suspected lifespan on the different systems and equipment. 
Ok, we're good for 20 yrs on this...prob 10 yrs on this...and probably 5 yrs on this...and I better carry fresh spares for this....

You won't get it right, but you will have an expectation and plan. 
In the end, after the crying has stopped, and everybody has gone to bed......you know that it will be a lot...


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

capecodda said:


> ....You can infer a LOT about a boat by interviewing the owner.......


Good post.

A smart salesperson and/or buyer will gather as much information as they can. Some of it may not seem pertinent...unless you know what to look for.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

Skipper Jer said:


> Now I'm out close to a grand. How does one avoid this situation?


You will find that in the grand scheme of things, this money will be the most well spent $1K you will ever pay. On anything.

You need to look at this as one of the costs of buying a boat. And if this is a major issue, then you need to rethink your ability to buy a boat. It is not unusual to drop significant more $1K's in to a new to you/new/used boat, especially in the first year. Even more, if you use the boat a lot and see things that NEED to be repaired or replaced for safety reasons or reliability.

best of luck.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Shortnsalty said:


> a window which a lot of time means no wind?


Why waste your money on a mast or two, wire to hold it up, running rigging and sails, if you are only going to travel when there is no wind?
A weather window normally refers to favorable winds, not a lack of wind, for sailors. Personally, I consider a lack of wind much worse than a good stiff breeze blowing from the right direction.


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## superslomo (Jun 16, 2015)

I can only echo the above, and note that buying a boat that is nearby, which is IN THE WATER, and which can be actively sailed to verify that the fundamentals are working, is vital.

On some older boats (mine included) the cost of repower and sails would almost immediately leave you with more invested than the boat would conceivably be worth.

All the little things can cost you more than you imagine, and a cheap boat is the most expensive thing on earth.

Also would echo the thought that a survey at $1k could save you thousands you can't even contemplate... decks that need recoring, chainplates that have water intrusion around them, these things you could easily miss could put your "investment" underwater before it even gets IN the water.


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