# First Family Boat for the Chesapeake?



## TSOJOURNER

I just posted on "Introduce Yourself" but am looking for advice on purchasing a boat to sail on the Chesapeake. I have three teenagers and a very wonderful wife. We would like to sail several daysails/overnighters each month and work up to extended jaunts of several days.

We can afford a 20 year old meticulously kept Catalina 30. Are there other options that might be more accomodating? I have seen several Hunter 34s listed in the same price range. I'm enamored with a Beneteau 350 but don't think I can afford it, the Marina dock fees, insurance, etc.

Any and all advice would be much appreciated. If anyone is willing to part with a great Chesapeake sailboat for a reasonable price, please contact me with details. Does anyone know of a trustworthy surveyor in the MD/VA area?


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## TQA

Catalina 30 is an excellent choice as long as the kids dont mind the aft cabin berths under the cockpit. You might find one for 15k ready to go.


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## JohnRPollard

dakine,

You can have a lot of fun in a Catalina 30. They are great boats for family coastal sailing -- sort of the Honda Accord/Toyota Camry of sailboats.

The C30 would be fine for day trips and some overnighting. But I wonder if it will be big enough for multi-day overnighting with your family with three teenagers? Our three kids are a bit younger than yours (but not much), and we are beginning to really stretch our 31' boat at the seams. 

Initially it might be fine, but the novelty will wear off after a bit and the need to always convert the main salon from sleeping quarters to salon does get a bit wearisome after a while.

You didn't mention what your budget is -- which would help us to offer other suggestions. But the reality is there are not too many options for 3-cabin boats in the low-mid-thirty foot range. The Beneteau 350 would certainly give you a lot more volume, but I'm not sure how it's configured (I've spent time aboard the 351, which is spacious but still has only two sleeping cabins.)


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## TSOJOURNER

I would like to keep our total cost including 1st year slip rental at <$30,000. The Catalina 30 appears to offer the best bang for the buck. Two of my kids are busy with college and part-time jobs, but may venture forth occasionally. We want to keep our boating expenses low until we get all three of our kids through college. We would like to entertain at least 5-7 folks during day cruises.


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## BarryL

Hello,

As mentioned, the C30 is a great boat. However there are many other comparable boats. IMHO, you should look at a number of boats, find a few that meet your needs, and then buy the best example you can find.

Other boats that are similar to the Catalina 30 in price, performance, and size are:
Newport 30
O'day 30 or 31
C&C 30
S2 9.2A
Hunter 30 (although I am not a fan of Hunter)
Islander 30
Beneteau 30
Ericcson 30
Pearson 30
Cal 31

etc.

It would be helpful to you to find and work with a good broker. A good broker will be able to show you good (and bad) features of various boats. 

Look at some more boats and ask more questions.

good luck,
Barry


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## TSOJOURNER

BarryL,

Thank you for your thoughts. So far we have looked at:

1. 1978-J/24 for daysailing. No go with wife.
2. 1989-O'Day 302.
3. 1988-Pearson 31.
4. 1982-Cherubini Raider 33.
5. 1982-Pearson 35.
6. 1984-Hunter 31.
7. 1987-Hunter 28.5.
8. 1981-O'Day 30.
9. 1982-Cal 31.
10. 1989-Catalina 30.
11. 1977-Columbia 29. Very clean boat.

Talked to a dealer in NC on a 1996 Beneteau 281 and viewed a private owner's Aloha 28. Anything under 30' seems cramped for more than three adults to move around on. The Raider was beautiful but could only accomodate 2 adults comfortably in the cockpit.

We finally viewed a Catalina 30 last weekend and were amazed that a 30 foot boat could have so much space above and below deck. I read an article describing the Catalina 30 as a "MiniVan" of sailboats. Put a bit of sting into my practical streak. 

As mentioned in my intro, I was a USN sailor for six years. Made it to Machinist Mate Second Class (MM-2). Went on three WestPacs on my 4.5 years of sea duty. 18 months of school. Not afraid to turn a wrench, make fiberglass repairs, re-rig, refit and rebuild. I understand how dangerous the sea can get. What quality gear means. I also have a clear understanding of time management, manhour estimates, labor costs, and return on investment.

We want to find a clean, well maintained boat for a good price that we can sail immediately. Not much fun spending all your time and money working on a boat and not sailing it.


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## soulfinger

For your purposes, you'll do fine with a well-maintained Catalina 30, all the better if you're not afraid to get your hands dirty. It may get a little tight with all 5 aboard, but it's certainly doable. It's gonna get tight with 5 aboard on just about any size boat that normal people can afford!


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## PalmettoSailor

A couple more points for the C30. Its among the most popular boats in its size and there is likely always going to be a buyer for a well maintained example. That might be important if you decide to move up later. 

Also you mentioned you plan to do your own work. Catalina has a history of building boats with owner maintenance in mind. Things are always cramped on a sailboat but from what I've seen, the systems on Catalina's are generally fairly accessable compared to some others which makes DYI projects less of a headache.

As for Surveyors, search here on Sailnet and you'll find several well regarded surveyors.


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## JohnRPollard

soulfinger said:


> ... It's gonna get tight with 5 aboard on just about any size boat that normal people can afford!


Ain't that the truth!!!


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## mccary

As a happy Catalina 27 owner who has had passing thoughts of a Cat 30 I might offer some points to consider.

First, don't base your boat size on teenage kids sailing with you; most teenagers have different priorities than adults. Plan on a boat you and the wife can manage yourself and then if the kids choose to join you everyone have 1981 as will be happy. 

The Catalina 30s I have looked at fall in to 2 categories; Atomic 4 motors and diesels. My preference would be for the later and that means a later model. For some reason I figure a 1981 or later is best with the Mark III being the best possible (also the more expensive). 

My 27 is a perfect boat for the Bay for day sailing and the occasional weekend. But I sail mostly with just my wife. The 27 is too small for more than 2 for a night (sure it has bunks for 5, but not with me on the boat), so don't judge the boat size based on the number of bunks. 

What area of the Bay will you be sailing on? I am just south of Naptown on West River.


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## TSOJOURNER

We will sailing out of the Deltaville area. I have a deposit on a Catalina 30 at the moment. Besides negotiating a fair price, I have a concern about a crack on the deck that runs-under the mast foot that is visible both fore and aft for an inch or two. Hairline would best describe it.


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## JohnRPollard

dakine929 said:


> We will sailing out of the Deltaville area. I have a deposit on a Catalina 30 at the moment. Besides negotiating a fair price, I have a concern about a crack on the deck that runs-under the mast foot that is visible both fore and aft for an inch or two. Hairline would best describe it.


Make sure you have the boat surveyed, and call that crack to the attention of the surveyor. More than likely it's not a major issue, though.

What year is this Cat 30? There are some well known issues with the keel stub of this boat for certain earlier model years. I think the problem is often called the "Catalina smile" and refers to brown ooze emanating from the joint between the keel ballast and the keel stub.

It was caused by the use of plywood in the keel stub, a practice which Catalina later abandoned. I don't know the exact year when they abandoned the practice, but you can find it by sleuthing around here on Sailnet. A good surveyor will know, too.

Good luck!


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## jorgenl

Dakine,

I know an extremely nice Cat 30 for sale in the Norfolk area. My buddy owns it and I race on it. New sails and good condition.

/Jorgen


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## TSOJOURNER

'91 Catalina 30 didn't work out. To many small things about this particular boat. We did find a '94 Hunter 30 that appears to be in meticulous shape. Will be checking it out this weekend.


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## Loaf1967

Dakine,
if you are willing to work on it there is a Catalina 30 in Deltaville called Fahgawee II. I looked at it about a month ago, but I am new to sailing and it looked like it might be something over my head, (has wood spreaders, covers and dodger have rips and growth on the bottom) It looks like it has just been sitting unused for a long period of time. Just type the name into google and the ad for the boat will come up.


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## TSOJOURNER

I have just placed a deposit on a 1994 Hunter 30T. Survey should be completed Monday, and we close NLT Friday of next week. Very excited!! Any suggestions on an inexpensive chartplotter?


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## JohnRPollard

dakine929 said:


> I have just placed a deposit on a 1994 Hunter 30T. Survey should be completed Monday, and we close NLT Friday of next week. Very excited!! Any suggestions on an inexpensive chartplotter?


Congrats! Very exciting.

My best suggestion on the chartplotter is to start a new thread in "electronics" and get suggestions there. Try to be as detailed as possible (price range, where mounted, size, etc) about your requirements.


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## PalmettoSailor

dakine929 said:


> I have just placed a deposit on a 1994 Hunter 30T. Survey should be completed Monday, and we close NLT Friday of next week. Very excited!! Any suggestions on an inexpensive chartplotter?


Congratulations. Are you buying the boat in D'ville? We bought our first boat there, moved our second there and haven't been been able to leave because we love the sailing around Deltaville so much.

We're at Stingray Point by the pool. Stop in in say hello sometime!

Bill


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## TSOJOURNER

We discovered the boat in Gloucester through Norton Yachts. We were planning on keeping the boat at Powell's on Jackson Creek. Stingray is a nice marina.

Took the boat out on a "sea trial" today. I'm hooked! The owner has made several sound modifications to the boat and has kept the boat spotless. 

Hunter impressed me with some of the features that come standard with their '94 30T. The Roller furling is in the anchor well. There are teaks seats in the handrails on the bow, stern port/starboard. Great storage throughout. Yanmar runs like a swiss watch. Running rigging layed out well.

The balance of the boat was amazing. Since we had some steady winds 10-15 knots we used the Jib only. I would think this to be awkward but still handled with precision. 5.5 knots. 

Will post on survey coming up Monday.


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## PalmettoSailor

dakine929 said:


> We discovered the boat in Gloucester through Norton Yachts. We were planning on keeping the boat at Powell's on Jackson Creek. Stingray is a nice marina.
> 
> Took the boat out on a "sea trial" today. I'm hooked! The owner has made several sound modifications to the boat and has kept the boat spotless.
> 
> Hunter impressed me with some of the features that come standard with their '94 30T. The Roller furling is in the anchor well. There are teaks seats in the handrails on the bow, stern port/starboard. Great storage throughout. Yanmar runs like a swiss watch. Running rigging layed out well.
> 
> The balance of the boat was amazing. Since we had some steady winds 10-15 knots we used the Jib only. I would think this to be awkward but still handled with precision. 5.5 knots.
> 
> Will post on survey coming up Monday.


I hear nothing but good things about Norton's. Stingray Point is full of folks that have bought more than one boat from them and they owner of the Tartan 40 I sometimes crew on recommends them also. The owners are also instrumental in organizing the Leukemia Cup Regatta also, so they really do a lot for the Deltaville Sailing community. I don't think you could have done better finding a broker.

I'm not familiar with Powell's, but know Jackson Creek pretty well from FBYC and we hauled out at Deltaville boatyard on Jackson Creek last year.

Fingers crossed for your survey.


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## TSOJOURNER

Ray Walden completed a thorough survey of the Hunter 30. We completed a short-haul at Yacht Haven in Glouchester, VA. Had the few barnacles scraped and hull power-washed for inspection. The hull is well maintained along with the rest of the boat. The owner replaced the driveshaft zinc even though it had a few months left on it. The keel is a bulb/wing configuration. We learned a lot about the boat in the six hours we spent with Ray. A few items to consider:

1. Battery terminal covers are important if you like your face. 
2. Any through valve should be capped if not connected. 
3. House batteries circuit should have a disconnect switch. 
4. Don't use ammonia based cleaning products on a boat.
5. Strategically place fire extinguishers at accesible locations.
6. Use CO/smoke detectors and fume detectors.
7. Carefully choose type of stainless steel fittings, hardware and clamps. All hardware not created equally. i.e. Automotive Parts Store hose clamps different than marine hose clamps. Tightening bolt on automotive clamp isn't SS.

I can say we searched the entire length of the Chesapeake, and after several months this is the nicest boat I could find for the money. Still looking for a marina. Powell's would dock us next to a commercial tour boat. Jackson creek is quiet but after talking with locals and looking at the charts, navigation is somewhat more daunting than Stingray. Is there a quicker way of contacting the Stingray Marina owners? We really like the marina and would be interested in a slip in E dock. I will also look at Billy Norton's marina.


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## PalmettoSailor

dakine929 said:


> Ray Walden completed a thorough survey of the Hunter 30. We completed a short-haul at Yacht Haven in Glouchester, VA. Had the few barnacles scraped and hull power-washed for inspection. The hull is well maintained along with the rest of the boat. The owner replaced the driveshaft zinc even though it had a few months left on it. The keel is a bulb/wing configuration. We learned a lot about the boat in the six hours we spent with Ray. A few items to consider:
> 
> 1. Battery terminal covers are important if you like your face.
> 2. Any through valve should be capped if not connected.
> 3. House batteries circuit should have a disconnect switch.
> 4. Don't use ammonia based cleaning products on a boat.
> 5. Strategically place fire extinguishers at accesible locations.
> 6. Use CO/smoke detectors and fume detectors.
> 7. Carefully choose type of stainless steel fittings, hardware and clamps. All hardware not created equally. i.e. Automotive Parts Store hose clamps different than marine hose clamps. Tightening bolt on automotive clamp isn't SS.
> 
> I can say we searched the entire length of the Chesapeake, and after several months this is the nicest boat I could find for the money. Still looking for a marina. Powell's would dock us next to a commercial tour boat. Jackson creek is quiet but after talking with locals and looking at the charts, navigation is somewhat more daunting than Stingray. Is there a quicker way of contacting the Stingray Marina owners? We really like the marina and would be interested in a slip in E dock. I will also look at Billy Norton's marina.


Call Brent Halsey at 804-775-1807. Any time I've needed to call, I've gotten a prompt response.

There are currently slips open on almost every dock. We were on E dock a while back and the downside is you have a long walk to the pool or you have to drive. Other than that, E dock is fine and we have several friends on E. If you like your quiet, then don't get a slip on E directly across from Bubba's. You can idenify Bubba's because it appears to be a lively neon lit Bar, but is in fact a private residence. (Actually Bubba only throws a couple of big partys a year and is very good about shutting them down at a reasonable hour.) Our first slip was directly across from him and we never lost any sleep (I admit I have crashed a couple of his parties rather than try to sleep through the racket though).

In my opnion Stingray is about the nicest marina in D'ville other than FBYC, and I'm not rooted enough to invest in a Yacht Club membership at this point.

As far as navigation, you can have a straight, narrow, shallow entrance on Broad Creek or you can have a curving, narrow, shallow entrance on Jackson Creek. Each offers its own perils, though neither should be intimidating after you've done them once or twice. I will say Jackson creek will get the attention of your passengers, since you look like your gonna run right up on the beach before you turn.


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## chuck53

midlifesailor said:


> I hear nothing but good things about Norton's.


I went to Norton's a few weeks ago to look at a couple of their boats....met the most worthless boat broker I've ever met.
Met 3 other boat brokers in the area the same day and all 3 of them could outsell the Norton's guy in their sleep.
Met another broker in Norfolk the next day and just mentioned having a bad experience with a broker. He looked at me and asked, "was it Norton's"? When I confirmed that it was, he said they have really developed a bad reputation.

My comments are only about the broker, not the marina itself. Don't know enough about the marina to comment.


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## TSOJOURNER

I'm not that well versed in what a broker should do, but our transaction was smooth and took less than 10 days from deposit to close. Our broker was at Annapolis Yacht Show a good portion of that time. The seller and I were both motivated. I'm sure the broker is a bit more involved when they are selling a $400k boat vs. a $40k boat. I got that impression from a few Brokers in Annapolis. 

Norton's did well by us. We took a hard look at slips in Deltaville and decided to use Billy Norton's marina, Timber Neck. No swimming pool, but nice, large, well maintained slips and a very clean head. I backed out of three marinas because the docks were in mediocre repair, and the boats were taking a lot of abuse. I didn't want a place that required you to use bumpers to protect your hull. Saw a lot of hull abrasion, and pilings sanded to fresh (raw) wood by the boats. Slip fees ranged from $1600/yr to whatever your pocket could bear. We are paying $1800/yr. Probably an important think to keep in mind is slip size > boat size.


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## chuck53

There's an old saying "you only have one chance to make a good first impression." Let's just say the guy at Norton's really blew his chance where his competitors stepped up to the plate and did make a very good first impression.
In the 30-40k range I'm going to be looking in, I'm not going to go to the bother of having a buyer's broker where a $3000-4000 commission will have to be split between 2 guys. However, if I see a boat on yachtworld that looks really good and happens to be listed at Norton's, I'm going to find another broker to show it to me.


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## TSOJOURNER

Chuck53,

Try Tony Tumas in Baltimore at Great Blue Yachts. Will keep and eye out for the kind of boat you are looking for. Best wishes on your journey.


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## PalmettoSailor

chuck53 said:


> There's an old saying "you only have one chance to make a good first impression." Let's just say the guy at Norton's really blew his chance where his competitors stepped up to the plate and did make a very good first impression.
> In the 30-40k range I'm going to be looking in, I'm not going to go to the bother of having a buyer's broker where a $3000-4000 commission will have to be split between 2 guys. However, if I see a boat on yachtworld that looks really good and happens to be listed at Norton's, I'm going to find another broker to show it to me.


I'm really suprised to hear that. You might consider calling the owner directly if they turn up a boat you're interested in, in light of your experience. As you say in the price range you are shopping neither broker is likely to work too hard for a split commission. There are some good experienced brokers in Dville and there are a whole bunch of retirees sitting around waiting for the phone to ring.

FWIW, Norton's is one of the (if not the) top Hunter dealerships on the bay and the broker there is among the most experienced in town, so its no suprise other brokers might try to exploit one bad experience. Again, I know dozens of people that have bought more than one boat from Norton's and would do so again. However, I don't have "a dog in the fight", I'm just sharing what I've heard from their customers.

Good Luck.


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## chuck53

Midlife,
I'm sure Norton's is a big Hunter dealer and if I walked in the door talking about a $200-300k boat, the guy would have been all over me.
That was not the case. I got the very strong impression that he considered me a total waste of time. Other brokers in the area did not give me that impression, in fact, just the opposite. They made it clear they appreciated me coming by their offices and wanted to work with me.
When I mentioned a bad broker experience with another broker 60 miles away, the guy knew immediately that I was talking about Norton's even before I said the name. He said they have really developed a reputation of giving potential customers a "waste of time - don't bother me" attitude."

dakine929 - thanks for the reference.


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## CaptKirk

Thanks to everyone on this thread. I hope to get ahold of a boat next year, although I'll be shooting a bit lower pricewise. But the information regarding the boats and the experience is invaluable.

If you have anything to add on a thread I started, you can find it here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...9179-advice-beginner-boat-chesapeake-bay.html

Dakine929 - Congrats! You had posted in my discussion and it's exciting to hear about your new boat. Best wishes to you.


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## degreeoff

hmmm that being the case you should but mine so I can afford my 30! Hey Joe where would you recomend I unload mine? its an 80 totally ready for use with new rigging (all of it)?


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## kd3pc

Chuck and the group...

i have bought two boats from Norton's in the past few years, and was always treated well, perhaps the broker just wanted to give you space and time to look at the boats...they were always willing to work with me and the first was a $50K older boat at their dock..
for sure call carolyn and let her know what you experienced...

they certainly did not get to be the top hunter dealer (this from their latest email..."We just learned that we placed 3rd in the world for New Hunter Sailboat Sales for the 2009 model year and retained our #1 Hunter Marine Customer Service Award for the 18th consecutive year! ") and have their brokers in the top tier by doing a poor job...

All the best and I am glad that Ray Walden did a good job for you guys

dave


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## chuck53

Dave,
Glad to hear you had a good experience with Nortons.
I'm not saying the company is bad, just relaying my impressions of dealing with a salesman there and I know the difference between giving a potential buyer time and space and blowing them off. I got the very distinct feeling that the guy considered me a total waste of time.
If I told you what expired there, you would completely agree with me.


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