# new/newish under 30' bluewater cruiser



## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

It seems like a typical posting on sailnet goes something to effect "i want a cheap, well built boat under 30 foot to do some bluewater cruising." What boat should I buy? The typical response is your Cape Dory's, Albin Vega's etc. (then the posts that follow usually explain why you shouldnt try to do this) Anyway most of these boats have been out of production for quite some time. My question is, does anyone still build an under 30' bluewater boat. I know the trend is bigger is better and the margins on small boats really dont make it worthwhile to build one. 

If no one is building one has anyone tried recently. This could include restarting production on an old model or starting from scratch. 

I am not looking to buy one, or get into the business of building such a craft. I am just curious if anyone is still in this market.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Yes.

There are several still in production.

Off the top of my head, I'd mention the Bristol Channel Cutter (28'), the Falmouth Channel Cutter (22'), both offered by Cape George MArine.

Before Pacific Seacraft went bankrupt, they sold off their Dana 24 model to Seacraft Yachts, who are building it in Washington State. So a Dana 24 can still be bought new.

Slightly over your length stipulation: Pacific Seacraft (which is in business again) builds a Crealock 31 (30.5' LOD) and Cape George offers a 31' Atkin design (the CG 31).

I'm sure there are others... but you're right, they've become much less commonplace, as they were in 70's and 80's. That is partly due to the economics of selling relatively small but comparatively expensive boats, as well as changing consumer expectations, not to mention the recognition that -- all else equal -- one of the very easiest ways to improve seaworthiness is to simply make the boat larger.


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## SecondWindNC (Dec 29, 2008)

Interesting question, hopefully someone will have some good input about what boats of this type are still/currently in production.

Pacific Seacraft is still building its 31, which is certainly bluewater built but doesn't quite slot into that under-30 size range.

Edit: John beat me to it on the PSC. Cool that Seacraft is building the Dana. I think Pacific Seacraft has the molds for the Orion 27 and maybe even the Flicka, but from what I understand the molds need some work, plus it's just simply difficult to build a boat profitably in that segment of the market.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

There are probably a handful of under 30' offshore boats still available. One of the first to come to mind is the Norsea 27. Nor'Sea Yachts builders of the Nor'sea27, 37 and Montgomery 15 and 17 Many have cruised offshore and at least one has circumnavigated. Of course the downside is price - their web site quotes 148,000 + for a complete boat and you'd want to add a bunch to that before heading offshore.
Brian


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## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

I noticed that the prices on the boats mentioned were exceptionally high. On a per foot basis i can see why this isnt a very big market. The only used bristol that I could find that is fairly new was for arounnd a 150,000 and that boat had sailed to Australia and back. I would assume at best it would be in a well used conditions. Makes me wonder how much they cost new.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Bristol Yachts closed in 1997 due to bankruptcy, so newer ones do not exist.
Brian


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Or do you mean the Bristol Channel Cutter which was built by Sam Morse?
They are available new I believe as the molds were purchased by Cape George Yachts in Washington State. Yachtworld lists 3, one unfinished (1997) at 59,000, one 1998 at 175,000, and one 1995 at 209,000.
Brian


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## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

Sorry i was refering to the Cape George yachts that JohnPollard mentioned. I should have said Bristol Channel Cutter 28 instead of just Bristol.


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## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

mitiempo said:


> Or do you mean the Bristol Channel Cutter which was built by Sam Morse?
> They are available new I believe as the molds were purchased by Cape George Yachts in Washington State. Yachtworld lists 3, one unfinished (1997) at 59,000, one 1998 at 175,000, and one 1995 at 209,000.
> Brian


Your search was more successful than mine. I must have mistyped something in the yachtworld search.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Most 30' and under sailboats currently produced are not that suitable for other than occasional short offshore runs in good weather - with some exceptions as mentioned above. As you can see from the prices of the few new boats that are suitable it can make a lot of sense to purchase a boat 20, 30, or more years old for under say 20,000 and fix what needs it, add equipment needed for offshore and save a thousands over anything new, whether it is suitable or not. Just because a company is gone doesn't mean that their boats were not a good choice. As well an older fibreglass sailboat can still last decades with good maintenance. In most cases it's the engine, deck equipment, electronics, sails and wiring that have deteriorated and need replacement. I'm not going to begin a debate over which one to buy as that has been done many times before (as recently as yesterday on this site I believe), but there is a wide choice of suitable choices available at reasonable prices. 
Here's a link to James Baldwin's site listing what he suggests as good choices for offshore sailing. His entire site is well worth a good look.
Atom Voyages | Voyages Aboard the Sailboat Atom - Good Old Boats List - choosing a small voyaging sailboat
Brian


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I just saw your post regarding my search. I find that if you narrow down the search too much you get less results. I was searching for "bristol" under 30' long. Quite often if a company name or boat has several words in the name 
(as in "bristol channel cutter"), they are not all listed with the complete name. 
Brian


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*30 Foot Sailboats*

I Can Attest To The Fact That Pacific Seacraft Is Alive And Well .
I Am Building A 2010 Psc 31 . Will Be Delivered To Houston Area Around The 3rd Week In September . They Are Currently Building 31,34, 37, 40 ,44 .....they No Longer Own The Rights To The Flicka And Dana . They Are Also Working On A 60 Plan .


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

Slightly over your size limit, but Hallberg-Rassy still makes a 31 footer.


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## Curm (Sep 3, 2009)

If you have the money, Devlin Designing Boatbuilders will build you a very nice 28.5 ft. cutter designed for shorthanded offshore sailing. Or you can buy the plans and have someone else build it.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Do you mean Means Of Grace? Beautiful boat - traditional long keel design in wood. 
Brian


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## Curm (Sep 3, 2009)

mitiempo said:


> Do you mean Means Of Grace? Beautiful boat - traditional long keel design in wood.
> Brian


Yes, it's a Lyle Hess knockoff. BTW Devlin's stitich and glue boats are composite: layers of marine grade plywood coated with epoxy. Decks are awlgrip. There is no exposed wood except for the brightwork, so maintenance is equivalent to a fiberglass boat.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I agree his boats are as maintenance free as fibreglass with the warmth of wood. If I was going to build under 30' or so I would use wood/epoxy as well. The price would be high though for a boat like this - I doubt you would get away for less that 150k to 200k.
Brian


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## vadimgo (Feb 23, 2007)

well,

do you limit the scope of the search to US? And how exactly is the offshore capability defined? 
'cause if it is "heavy, fullkeel, lots of wood..." there are not many. If just the size,
2005 Vancouver 28 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
there are some like that.


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## vadimgo (Feb 23, 2007)

I would say,
not only the economics of boat building are changed. 
Not that I want to open that can of worms,
But there should be boats that are capable of crossing the oceans (and maybe a bit faster...) that are build in a more recent years, but they would be finkeel, balanced rudders (maybe no skegs) etc. And not impossible, under 30 ft size?
Maybe less tankage, but definitely, more interior space?...


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## Curm (Sep 3, 2009)

mitiempo said:


> I agree his boats are as maintenance free as fibreglass with the warmth of wood. If I was going to build under 30' or so I would use wood/epoxy as well. The price would be high though for a boat like this - I doubt you would get away for less that 150k to 200k.
> Brian


More like 350K.

Another nice small blue water boat is the Shannon 28, but you won't find one for 20K.

Does Island Packet still make the 31 footer?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

According to Island Packet's web site they only go as small as 36'. I did look at the older 31 and don't think it's in the same category (design) as the Shannon or Devlin boat - quite beamy for waterline length and blunt entry. Here's a link to a very good description of the characteristics of the Island Packet boats by Jeff on the cruiser forum Island Packet 31 for Liveaboard / Offshore? - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
I thought I was low in price after I posted the price guess but I knew I wasn't high. Of course it does depend who builds it and where you have it built as well as equipment.
Brian


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## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

Do you think in today economy people will try to return to simpler times and start making smaller bluewater boats. Or has it pretty much been ruled out as completely impracticle? If someone has $150,000 to spend on a new boat they might as well spend $300,000?

It seems like they could take away a lot of the whistle and bells and just leave the necessities for blue water cruising that the boats could be more obtainable. Less teak, just less fancy in general.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

It's a small market and already filled with low volume and custom builders I think. Morris, Pacific Seacraft, Norsea, Cape George and some others still produce offshore capable boats in small sizes. Custom builders like Devlin and others will build to suit, many of them in under 30' sizes. It's a sad fact that many want room and electric appliances and luxury at a dock somewhere instead of a solid offshore capable boat that sails well. The majority of builders follow the trend and produce what sells to the masses. It's probably a good business decision ( look at Catalina 27' and 30' numbers), but leaves what is really a minority wanting something better.
Brian


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## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

What kind of boat is that the second picture?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Pacific Seacraft 31 Pacific Seacraft : PS 31
Brian


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## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

If I actually had the time, money, ability I think the PS31 is what I would sail off with into parts unknown. Thats still a lot of money for a 31 foot boat.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Unfortunately, any 30' or thereabouts boat designed and built for safe offshore use will be very expensive in this day and age. That is why I and many others are buying well found 20 and 30+ year old boats and refitting them for offshore. If you buy a boat for 10k,15k, or 20k and spend from 5k to 20k upgrading and outfitting for offshore it is really a bargain compared to even a new boat not designed for such use. I'm not talking about a disaster ready for the chainsaw but a boat that is in pretty good shape with older equipment and maybe a few problems but nothing terribly serious.
Brian


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## jaasun71 (May 15, 2009)

What about Eastsail yachts ? Does anyone have any info on these ?


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## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

I have never heard of Eastsail. Nice looking boats though. It definetely follows the concept of this thread. I wonder how much the Offshore 25 lists for new. The coastal version is $60,000.


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## CrazyRu (May 10, 2007)

There are about dozen old designs which could be bought cheap and after 20-40 thousands dollars influx will look and behave like new.

However, if I'd look for small modern ocean going vessel, I'd prefer mini
The Mini 
over Flicka...


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## jaasun71 (May 15, 2009)

*Eastsail*



MarkCK said:


> I have never heard of Eastsail. Nice looking boats though. It definetely follows the concept of this thread. I wonder how much the Offshore 25 lists for new. The coastal version is $60,000.


I think it says prices starting around $87,900 for the Offshore. They look nice, I wish they had better pics on the website.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

mitiempo said:


> Unfortunately, any 30' or thereabouts boat designed and built for safe offshore use will be very expensive in this day and age. That is why I and many others are buying well found 20 and 30+ year old boats and refitting them for offshore. If you buy a boat for 10k,15k, or 20k and spend from 5k to 20k upgrading and outfitting for offshore it is really a bargain compared to even a new boat not designed for such use. I'm not talking about a disaster ready for the chainsaw but a boat that is in pretty good shape with older equipment and maybe a few problems but nothing terribly serious.
> Brian


That's a really insightful point, Brian. One of the characteristics of plastic boats is that well-made hulls live basically forever. So you have a pool of potential offshore sailors that isn't getting any bigger -- may even be shrinking -- and a semi-eternal pool of offshore-capable boats changing hands as required.

The cost differential between new vs 30 yrs old is huge and should easily cover the cost of refitting, at least in boats under 35'. I can pick up an Albin for under $10k; put another $10-15k into refitting and put the $100k savings vs. a new/newer boat into the cruising kitty. The differentials are even greater if the owner is willing/able to do all needed work himself -- which, if you are serious about crossing oceans, involves skills you ought to possess anyhow.

Offshore boats from the 70s and 80s are so deathless, they more or less pinched the market off. The place new boats can really compete is amenities and performance. Room, accomodations, and creature comforts are better on today's wide-bodied cruisers, and better hull designs, rigs, and foils can offer higher crossing speeds -- even planing ability, if the sailors are good enuf to handle it. But in truth, most people obsessed with creature comforts prefer coastal cruising & don't need the stoutness of an offshore vessel; most people obsessed with performance gravitate to racing or build custom.

Tough for any new offshore production boat to crack the small-boat market; most would-be cruisers like myself are quite happy to buy old & refit.


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## teejayevans (Jul 10, 2005)

bobmcgov said:


> Offshore boats from the 70s and 80s are so deathless, they more or less pinched the market off. The place new boats can really compete is amenities and performance. Room, accomodations, and creature comforts are better on today's wide-bodied cruisers, and better hull designs, rigs, and foils can offer higher crossing speeds -- even planing ability, if the sailors are good enuf to handle it. But in truth, most people obsessed with creature comforts prefer coastal cruising & don't need the stoutness of an offshore vessel; most people obsessed with performance gravitate to racing or build custom.


Water tankage is not a creature comfort, for example a Bristol 27 has a 
10 gal. water tank, a PSC 31 has 65 gals. Most of the older boats have
small tankage. 
If you are really handy and can do most of the work yourself, consider old,
if not, stick to newer.
Understand an older boat may require to be repowered, new water/fuel
tanks installed, etc. Very expensive to do, even if you do it yourself.
Tom


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Tom
Pacific Seacraft 31 is a great boat. About a dozen on Yachtworld, from 84k for a 1987 to 168k for a 2004. And I doubt that the one at 84k would be a turnkey vessel for offshore. The difference between that and a 20k boat that needs 20k of refit is still a big chunk of change. And I would bet a lot of people like myself don't have the money to buy the Pacific Seacraft 31 at 84k anyway. By buying an older boat for a relatively low price the upgrades can be done on a pay as you go basis over a period of 1 - 3 years. There are currently 449 sailboats on Yachtworld between 29 and 31 feet for under 25k. I believe that this large pool of used boats (not all good of course) is a big factor in the number of new boats being built today. 
To repower a boat of this size, if you just want to write a cheque, say 7 - 8k plus 3k for the install. I bet you could replace all water and fuel tanks for 2k in new custom stainless steel tanks. Add rigging, sails, electronics etc and the high dollar route would be another 10 -15k maybe. That adds up to 28k at the high end. And that would be for new professionally done for the most part. There are many ways to lower this number, used rebuilt engine, self install which requires care but can be done by most handy people. Used sails are easy to get from Bacon's or many other places, tanks can be done on a budget, plastic being one lower dollar choice. Electronics don't have to be more than the basics, vhf, depth, gps and a spare can be had new for well under 1k. 2k for a wind vane (Norvane new), and you've saved a lot.
I think most of the people doing this are willing and able to do it themselves for the most part. The Owners' groups are full of people rebuilding interiors, systems, and recoring decks. The Plastic Classic Forum • Index page is a large group of hands on people rebuilding part or all of good inexpensive boats like the Pearson Triton 28. Atom Voyages | Voyaging Around the World on the Sailboat Atom with James and Mei is a great resource for both finding a boat with James Baldwin's list of good choices for voyaging
Atom Voyages | Voyages Aboard the Sailboat Atom - Good Old Boats List - choosing a small voyaging sailboat and modifying it for offshore use. The Tartan 27 owner's forum T27Owners : Tartan 27 Owners Yahoo Group is another and this is just scratching the surface. Boat design forum Boat Design Forums is another good link and there are many more. Any good old boat you can name has a group of owners modifying and and maintaining these older solid designs. There are blogs for every kind of boat you can name. Today's internet lets you find anything you want to fast, if you aren't sure of something the answer is a few keystrokes away. 
For every successful business owner who might retire early and sail off in his new 400k or more offshore boat there are dozens on a budget doing it a different way, proving that you don't have to be rich to sail offshore. 
Brian


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## nemier (Jul 9, 2005)

Great post Brian.
I'm thinking I'll go down this route myself.


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