# Daysailer - fast family dinghy?



## TheFrog (Oct 25, 2007)

Starting off on the 10 year plan to cruising. First step is to get my own boat for the local lakes to improve my skills (and the wife's).

We live in the Atlanta, GA area. Two boys (4 and 2). Sailing would be primarily on Lake Lanier and Allatoona Lake. Want a boat that is easy to tow behind the minivan. Needs to fit in a long garage stall. Due to the two young kids it needs to be fairly stable when sailed conservatively. Due to my need for exhilaration I want something that can sail fast (easy planing). 

For the eventual move up I would like a boat that can fly a spinnaker and a furling headsail is a nice bonus (both are typically on my current top choice - see below)>

If possible I would like a boat with at least some one-design racing, I would probably never be hypercompetitive but like the idea of others sailing the same boat available to give advice. I have sailed on FJ, Laser, Capri 14.2, O'Day Sprite, Harpoon 5.2.

Currently I am considering the following boats:
Buccaneer 18 - top of my list, fast, roomy, light, active fleets. Is it too tender for the family?
Flying Scot - seems like a nice stable boat, very active fleets, a little big and heavy? How big of an issue is the balsa cored hull?
Harpoon 5.2 - nice sailing boat, stable, lacks active class

Are there any other designs I am missing out there? Ideally the boat is sized to fit up to 4 adults (the kids will grow and guests do come visit). I am budget limited to less than $5000 (with trailer, sails, repairs, etc.). Obviously I want to keep it as cheap as possible but do not want to end up with a project boat.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Greg


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## Robby Barlow (Apr 23, 2006)

Seems like a pretty good plan, and I'm sure you'll find the right boat...but I'm just trying to think of the distance to and from the lake to your garage, as well as the height of the latter. "Dropping & popping" the mast each time could be a problem you may want to consider...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I sailed a Bucc a couple of times last year before I got my boat and one time it was loaned to me to take my kids out. I grew up in Atlanta and know Lanier well; there are some large coves that stay a lot calmer than the big pool. Taking those experiences and thinking about them together, I would say a Bucc is a reasonable choice if you watch the weather carefully and if a rare capsize could be tolerated if it occurred. You would want a furling jib so you could make it disappear in a hurry without going up there (they get really tippy when you go on the foredeck). They are somewhat wet; water through the trunk seems to be common. You can open scuppers to make it go away, but you will have a wet floor. But they have a nice roomy cockpit laid out much like a cruiser cockpit; nicer than a lot of racing dinghies.


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## jrutledge33 (Jan 13, 2008)

for a family of 4 and OD racing, have you considered a small keelboat like a Catalina 22. especially a swingkeel with current lake levels. 

there are tons of them on Lake Lanier and therefore always good ones on the market in your budget. 
Fleet 58 out of LLSC is very active C22 one design racing group of friendly folks with current and former national champs. 

whatever the boat... rather than tow from home, consider getting a dry berth at one of the marinas (eg Aqualand). you keep the boat on the trailer at the marina and the rig up (a big plus if you value your time and fuel costs). drive to marina, splash the boat, go sailing.

hope this helps


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## Iflyka200s (Oct 3, 2007)

What Jeff said!

C-22's are great boats!

#9648


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

If you're searching for a fine quality, stiff and stable daysailer, check out Marshall Sanderling - an 18 ft. gaff-rigged trailerable catboat, that certainly isn't as fast as many much lighter, more tippy dayboats, but lots of fun for the family. They've been produced since 1962, so a few are always available in the used market. But, you'd have to look very hard for an older one matching your budget.

I particularly like the folding mast feature and considered one as an interim daysailer to keep on a mooring off our backyard beach - winter stored on a trailer . . . at least 'till we decide on another, larger boat to replace our NC33. Our sights are currently set on the diesel powered Marshall 22, Sanderling's slightly bigger sister. The Sanderlings come in both open and cuddy cabin versions.


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## TheFrog (Oct 25, 2007)

Thanks for all your comments!

Robby, yes I am thinking about the hassle of rigging/derigging and mileage to/from the lake, dry storage may be attractive if the price is right but I would still like to be able to pop the boat into the garage at home. In addition there is a trade off on wear and tear if the boat is outside all the time.

Andy, tolerance for capsizing is high for me, low for the wife, kids would probably think it is a blast. I capsized a Hobie on our honeymoon and the marriage survived...

Jeff and Ifly - interesting thought on the Catalina 22. Will still consider but seems a bit more boat than what I want.

TB - wouldn't expect much different from a man who sold his Nauticat. That is one salty looking boat, would probably help the wife feel secure. Doesn't match my tastes and doesn't get me a modern rig like I would like to have to start honing my skills for moving up to a bigger boat.

Keep the suggestions coming, I am loving it.


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## primerate84 (Jun 14, 2006)

My first boat was a Flying Scot and it is definitely a great family boat. Very stable, beamy boat that was designed to sail on the Great Lakes. Huge cockpit, fractional rig with spinnaker. Not as fast as a Highlander or Lightning but still can get up on plane is certain conditions. Never had a problem with the hull or deck. Easy to raise the mast and rig. Good luck with whatever you decide; it looks like you are taking the right approach.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Frog,
After posting that suggestion, I realized your tastes were honed to Bermudian rigs. Sorry if this is off-topic. But for me, the sight of catboats sailing against a New England backdrop is inspiring.

Edward Hopper's wartime era Ground Swell has always been a favorite painting, depicting a simpler life of catboat summers, but mindful of ominous threats - symbolized by the dark buoy.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

TheFrog said:


> Andy, tolerance for capsizing is high for me, low for the wife, kids would probably think it is a blast. I capsized a Hobie on our honeymoon and the marriage survived...


I think you are probably well aware that you can't get it to zero chance in any boat and the lighter and faster you want the boat, the higher the capsize risk will be. I should have also mentioned heeling though. Someone with more Bucc experience may correct me, but I felt like it had decent secondary stability but little primary. In other words it heels over a little bit in just a slight breeze but then hits a point where it holds pretty well. Talking to a Bucc racer, seeing them go over in spring time races was not unusual. However, this racer is who loaned me a Bucc - his "recreational" one which wasn't set up for racing and he told me the recreational one had not capsized since he had owned it. But he or people he loaned it to had come in under main alone on days the boat could have stayed out with a crew that had a higher risk of capsize tolerance. So be prepared to come in with the family on some days that are near perfect from another viewpoint.

I ended up going to the bottom end of cruisers, partly because I wanted something I could do an overnight in and prtly because of stability. Buccs will pass right by me, but I have had my kids out in 15 knot winds with no worries.


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## TheFrog (Oct 25, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> Frog,
> After posting that suggestion, I realized your tastes were honed to Bermudian rigs. Sorry if this is off-topic. But for me, the sight of catboats sailing against a New England backdrop is inspiring.


Certainly inspiring images, deep down inside it is things like that picture that get the sailing juices flowing in my mind. Just not the boat for me.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

TB, I love the painting! But catboats in general are rare enough that the Frog will probably not find similar boats in a class racing group. 
Friend Frog, even though I have never owned one, the Catalina 22 would be my choice, especially if there is a class racing group in the area. If the boat is on a trailer in the garage, it will often stay there too much. If you can get dry trailer storage in a marina, it will keep your costs down but still make it convenient to go sailing because it is there, rigged, ready. A BBQ grill 22 (I meant to say Catalina 22) is stable enough to be good for the family for several years, and a class racing group will force you to improve your skills, and commit to a schedule. If the boat is too small for your boys to bring a buddy, they will not be as enthused about it, and your wife will stay home with the boys. My kids lost interest, and the only reason I sail now is that I luckily got my wife to start again after the kids were gone!


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## TheFrog (Oct 25, 2007)

RAGTIMEDON said:


> A BBQ grill 22 (I meant to say Catalina 22) is stable enough to be good for the family for several years, and a class racing group will force you to improve your skills, and commit to a schedule.


I am not sure that my budget has the space for an appropriate grill (or two). Plus what would this due to my weight distribution, would I be hobby-horsing around the lake? Did Catalina plan for this weight on the 22 like they did on the 400?








[Time to sit back and wait for CD to come along]


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You got it---time to wait for CD! 
Seriously, though, you need to think "Class racing" because if you join a racing group, you will sail, and you will learn. Goals! Goals! Goals! That's what keeps the dream alive. And the competition will stand a better chance of keeping the kids interested, and keeping the boys interested is what will keep Mom interested! If there is an active Flying Scot racing group, that may be the way to go. But DO find the right group and join, the competition and camaderie will keep you on track! Races for the kids, pot lucks for the Mom, learning skills for Dad. And pass those skills to the First Mate, (She calls herself the Admiral) because when you get as old as I you may fall on your face and need her to sail home.


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## poltergeist (Oct 26, 2006)

I second the recommendation on the Catalina 22, and since you've already identified the Flying Scot (and I own one), I'd encourage you to look at that, too. There are scads of both around, they're within your budget, and both are fun and stable enough to keep a family happy.

The balsa core on the Scot is a concern only if the boat has been neglected. My Scot is 25+ years old and solid as a rock. Visit the Scot web site and you'll find tips on evaluating used boats.

Don't know about the Catalina, but my Scot on its trailer spends the winter in my conventional two-car garage ... diagonally, but it fits. And the mast fits up against the ceiling with the aid of a couple of pulleys I rigged.

Have fun.

Kurt


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Cat22 and the other boats you name are completely different animals. Don't get talked into too much boat too soon. I like your plan of starting with the open boat, then considering a move up. And your preference for sloops is valid -- I can appreciate the simplicity and stability of catboats, but I like my headsails, sorry.

So: Flying Scot is the conservative choice, Thistle is the performance benchmark. Not so many Thistles in the US, however. I own a Bucc18 and can endorse Andy's opinion -- exceedingly tender and overpowered, but it does harden up around 30-35 degrees. This is too much heel for family outings, and you'll never squeeze more than three bods on the uphill rail. Pity anyone stuck on the leeward side.

I haven't capsized the Bucc since my first day out, but it's a helluva lot of work keeping that record intact. I'd never take little kids out in it -- maybe my niece, an adventurous eleven and swims like a fish. PFDs for all crew, all the time. The boom is low and dangerous, the vang and mid-boom mainsheet make getting across a real scramble, and scramble you must if you don't want to dump it. We bought ours for your stated reasons, lively, but big cockpit for social/family sailing and stowage for camping. Turned out too wet for camping and too overpowered for group outings. It's a beefy two-man sprinter, that's all it's good for. The boat can be singlehanded, but it's a monster in high winds. Tall, roachy mainsail.

The Buccaneer has been built by a half-dozen companies, to varying levels of quality. The Chryslers are fairly solid but aging fast; the new Nickles are hot but overpriced. If you can get one for $1200 with decent sails (incl. spi), it's the most fun you can have per dollar. If you find one in your area, feel free to ping me and we can assess that boat for known problems.

If family daysailing is your primary goal, the Scot is a better choice. The Capri 15 isn't bad, or a Vanguard Nomad as a weird but interesting dark horse. The Harpoon is reliable but a little cramped. Keep us updated!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I'm selling a dinghy that sounds as if it meets all of your needs. The PHRF is 98 and it has a spinnaker. The ad is in the classifieds here on SailNet:

http://www.sailnet.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=1739&cat=6&page=1

I'm not sure on shipping, (meeting 1/2 way, shipping container, LTL, private carrier) but would be glad to research if you're interested. It only cost me a few hundred dollars to ship a car to North Carolina a year ago...


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## TheFrog (Oct 25, 2007)

Bobmcgov,

Thanks for the feedback on the Bucc, guess it is the boat for me but not the family. Really need to keep the wife and kids happy - the happier they are in the boat the more time I will spend on the water.

The Nomad has come up in some of my other conversations, unfortunately as a newer boat the price on used models is still quite high.

Robert,

Interesting idea on the FJ. I had put them out of my thoughts I my memory of the FJ I sailed a few times years ago was tight for 2 people and seems really small for a family - but maybe you can correct my opinion.

Kurt, 

I think I am leaning more and more towards a Flying Scot - roomy and fairly stable, a bit heavier than I would like but maybe the appropriate compromise. How easy is it to singlehand? 

Thanks for all the input!
Greg


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

If it helps - I put my two young ones, 4 and 6 in the bow area sitting facing back so they can use the spinnaker sock like a backrest. My wife takes the mainsheet and I run helm next to her. Turning is not a problem.

I would not race with children in the boat because you could heel to over 30 degrees in a strong breeze in a dinghy and that can get hairy when the rail gets wet.

The good thing about the boat I suggested is that you can be rigged and sailing in under ten minutes (20 probably your first time). It now takes me longer to go park the truck than it does to step the mast, bend on the sails and attach the rudder and centerboard.

To me, daysailing should be a passionate hobby, you should be able to get as much pleasure out of it with the least work. Having to handle bigger boats make things stressful, and most you can't beach just anywhere. Double hulls or flat hulls make GREAT pleasureboats and are so much easier than a keel hull when it comes right down to just going out to adventure.


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## primerate84 (Jun 14, 2006)

As I mentioned previously, my first boat was a Scot and it was easy to single hand. (Fractional rig and if you don't want to use the spinnaker you could use a whisker pole on the jib. My boat had all the sheets run right back to the center of the cockpit. Docking is relatively easy also. In fact, if you didn't want to try to sail into the slip, you could easily drop the sails and paddle in. Very easy boat to move through the water with a paddle even though its 19' long. Easy to launch and winch back up on the trailer, too. Oh, and I bought mine used for $2,300 in 1990 with all sails and trailer included. (1974 model.) There are plenty of Scots (even older ones) still in great condition at very reasonable prices.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

I noticed that you never mentioned the 19' Lightning as a possibility. This boat has a huge following: International Lightning Class
with many active racing chapters. The Lightning can be sailed leisurely with 4 adults in the cockpit or it can be pushed to the max with a spinnaker. Pretty easy to keep upright too.
Check the link above under the 'Buy/Sell' tab at the top to price some of the older Lightnings (serial #'s 10,000 - 12,000) for prices and location. I have hull #11416 which I got for $1K w/2 sets of sails including spinnakers and trailer.
Good luck with your decision.


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## hriehl1 (Aug 8, 2007)

Another great starter boat for family (daysailing) use is the O'Day Daysailer at just under 17 feet and 650 lbs...
- easily trailered, launched & retrieved
- good room for 4 and dry
- excellent parts availability
- readily available in sail-away condition for ~ $1500 w/ sails & trailer
- Boom travels above head-height

Others mentioned may be a tad faster (Bucc18, Thistle, Highlander, Scot) but they'll all be a bit more of a handful while your family is learning. And the DS is no slug... our's planes at about 12 knots of wind with 4 people in it.

When you're ready to move up in a couple years, sell it for what you paid (I just sold one of mine for $50 less than I paid 3 years ago).


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## fullkeel7 (Apr 16, 2008)

Graig,

As others, I think you would be better off with the Catalina 22. At 2500lbs, the mini van should handle the load and with a large number of them at LL there should be some great support. Plus your boys are probably a little young for a tippy daysailor and if you dump 'em into the drink chances are your family sailing days will be over. There's something about sailing along, warmed by the sunshine one moment and then drenched in cold water fully clothed the next that women and young children do not understand the fun in it. 

Nap time is another consideration for the Cat and can extend your sailing day.
So can the dinette...lunch in the cabin without the sun beating on everyone. The Cat can even turn a daysail into an over nighter with the pop top and canvas. There's enough room for kiddie stuff and a porti-pottie for the bladder challenged....just try that in a open dinghy!

The suggestion on leaving the boat rigged at one of the marinas on Lanier is one for serious consideration...with the prices of gasoline and the rigging twice at every outing, would more than offset marina costs for dry storage. IMHO, your family would use the boat more often and during the off season, you could still derig and take it home. I used to drag a bass boat to Lanier while living in Riverdale when gas was fairly cheap and it still would cost me an arm and a leg. It gets old! 

BTW, Altoona is too narrow and tree protected for good steady wind IMO and even though I had a HP bass boat, I had trouble staying away from the high speed throttle jockeys...DANGEROUS!! I would imagine a sailboat would keep one's muscles (where the sun don't shine) wound tight! Besides, Lake Lanier is one of the prettiest lakes I've ever been on and it has many coves to overnight in or duck into during snotty weather. Sailing is such a great family activity, I regret not thingking of it when my kids were young. Just pick your days at first so you don't scare the bejez out of the wife and kids!Good luck with the search.

Oh yeah, I think there are some clubs at Lanier where you can satisfy your need for dinghy racing without the "kid/wife dunking trauma" 

Bob


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Glad someone beat me to it, but my first thought was a Lightning too. They used to sail in Lk Washington, fast boats for there size etc. If you want slightly bigger, ala along the lines of the C22, wold be a San Juan 21 as another option.

If you want new, altho not much 1 d racing on this side of the atlantic would be the new Laser SB3. Or for that matter, a melges 24, but again, now we are upping the size of the boat.

Personally, a lightning would fit the parameters pretty well IMHO!

Marty


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

*nods* Lightning would be a great choice. Fully turboed, it's exactly as fast as the Bucc18 or 470. Shorten sail, and its weight and hull form settle it right down into something like the Flying Scot. They have been around forever, made by many manufacturers and even home-built (IIRC), so it's worth shopping for a good one. And since Nickels also holds rights to the Lightning and has started building new ones, you can get parts and sails easily. Good one-design fleets worldwide. Lots of strings to pull if that's your bag.

I can recommend the SJ21 if you really do decide on a keelboat. Got one of those, too. It's nearly the most dinghy-like of the ballasted overnighters, only 1500 lbs or so; interior's not much for comfort and the balsa deck inevitably has soft spots, but a cheap boat to buy and own. You can learn in one from scratch. Very clean cockpit, so you can get across w/out panic and really pack people on the bench.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Got a San Juan for sale in my area for the usual $2-3000 but haven't met up with either her or her owner to settle this Cal vs SJ debate bobmcgov and I have going! I think either fits your category quite well and even allow for changing tastes.

For some reason also my mind turns to a Snipe. Not really a family boat but meets your other requirements and the numbers of kids who've learned to sail in one is legion. Fast, affordable, trailerable, easily worked on and maintained, and a blast to sail for young and old.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

An SJ is a bit faster, at least PHRF wise ranging from 245-260 around the states, a catilina is in the 260-280 range. The C22 from what I have seen, has a big more room on the inside etc, as far as cruising goes. Both have 1D folks racing around. I believe there have been more C22's built thru the yrs. Reality is, if one is going to choose between these two, not sure personally that it is really worth worrying about! Both have a good following etc. 

personally, it is a bit smaller and speedier, vs a bit more interior etc and a tad slower speed wise. Otherwise, similar rigs etc.

From what I can see of OP's needs, a Lightning would be my first choice, the SJ then the C22 if going bigger.

marty


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Hey Froggie,
Getting enough rain down there to help fill up Lake Lanier? 
I mentioned the 19' Lightning as I own one and find that it fills most of the criteria you asked about for me. It can be sailed balls to the wall or it can be handled much more delicately. The flat bottom and relatively light weight allow it to cruise faster than many larger boats. 
Last Sunday we had ours out and outran a 30' Pearson in 10 kt winds (gusts to 15+) in Huntington Bay on LI. As some of the stronger gusts and cat paws came up my helmsman decided to just let the main out a foot or so and we were still making good time but less likely to get rounded up in the gusts with my wife on board. 
Our boat is rigged for racing (all control lines to the cockpit) which makes for some clutter but it is still a pretty spacious cockpit. It is by no means an overnighter as in you will not want to sleep on it but it should satisfy many of your initial requirements and I think it is probably more sporty (read faster) than some of the models you stated you are looking at. 
There are a ton of Lightning fleets around the country AND the world that you could race with/against in 1 Class racing if or when you need your testosterone fix.
I own 2 other boats which are much more dowdy: Tartan 27' (cruiser) and a 14' Viking day sailor circa 1965 (like an O'Day day sailor but slower and much more tender and beamy). When I first got the Lightning 2 years ago (because the price was right) I intended to try and teach my nephew some sailing skills and was a bit put off by all the rigging lines that complicate the cockpit area. I have learned to appreciate the way this boat is rigged and have even taken a buddy out fishing and trawling on it at night under a partial moon. We hooked a few fish but could not get them into the boat thankfully. I have also flown the spinnaker a few times and there is just nothing like it. 
I have sailed a Snipe and a few smaller boats and others will recommend a small keel boat like a Catalina 22. I have nothing against any of the boats on your list (Flying Scot etc) but I love the feeling that I do not need a motor to get back into my harbor against an outgoing tide when 25' sailboats start to fire p their engines to get over the current. We just glide over it and if we don't we carry oars in case the wind dies (and hope we are close to home and the flies are not too hungry).
As for rigging, a Sunfish is easy to rig but once you get into boats with stays and shrouds it gets more difficult. You get better with it over time and learn some tricks and short cuts if you are paying attention. I have used a fishing pole to send a messenger line over a tree limb which eventually pulls up a line with a block (pulley) at the end to help raise and lower the mast. It is almost easier if you have the manpower (people) to just push it up and set it in the foot the trying to do it gracefully.
The Lightning is a great boat for sailing or just day sailing. Your mileage will vary.


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## TheFrog (Oct 25, 2007)

*Great feedback*

I am really digging the feedback I am getting here. I also appreciate the rain that Fay is dumping on us this morning. Lanier is up 3" in 24hours. Sorry the Florida folks had to get dumped on to give us this.

The message is getting through my thick head. I am struggling to put my list together in an orderly fashion but here is a try.

1. Flying Scot
2. Lightning (more strings to pull than a Scot)
3. Vanguard Nomad (not sure it is in my price range)
4. Harpoon 5.2 (this is the only boat on my list I have sailed)

Then comes a group of boats that I would still consider but not as attractive to me.
Capri 16.5
FJ
O'Day Daysailer
Hunter 170

Boats that I unsure about
Thistle
Y-Flyer
American 18
Precision 16

Yeah, I think the Bucc18 is off my list, if one popped up on my radar I would look at it but I am going to have to aim more for stability. (But the 2 year old would love getting dunked)

For the C22 and SJ21 fans out there - sorry, I am not really interested in that class of boat. I am sure in a couple of years I will get 10 foot-itis in any case!

Greg


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## XTR (Feb 28, 2007)

CL 16 is a fun stable (for a dinghy) boat to sail and will teach how to sail pretty quickly, and you will get to learn how to right it after you get blown over too. At 350 lbs you can tow it with pretty much anything with 4 wheels.

The CL 16 is the same boat that has been sold for over 30 yrs as the Wayfarer 16 and the Mistral 16. 

Brand new they are $10K with every imaginable option, used you can find old ones for $1500

My wife and I have one and we've been having good fun with it.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

This year I stepped up and bought a used Catalina 27, which is serving me well. Last year I had a boating accident with a 17 ft Nomad and wanted something stable with good reputation/history. I live in New England was was able to purchase the boat close to your budget. My friends in the boating community say I have a great boat and my concerns of going over are limited as (I am told) the boat will self right if too things get too close. 
Just my experience and I am happy with the all aspects of the boat.
Bette


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## my1972ih (Apr 2, 2000)

our lightning was a great family boat for years. Back then, at 6'3" and 250lbs, plus or minus, with her board down, I could stand on the rails without tipping her over. One daysail we had 13 adults and children aboard. slow day. Mostly it was my family of four. sometimes we would load up the tent and camping supplies under the foredeck and sail off across the lake to a secluded spot for the weekend. my son also stepped the mast alone when a teenager. don't forget to add trailer tongue, etc. to boat length for garaging.<OST p boat to etc. tongue, trailer of length add forget don?t garaging, for it. stepped he then and teenage a was son my until myself by mast the I weekend. lake part secluded off sailed deck aft thsmaller under firewood extra somw foredeck supplies camoing tent our put times many We children. two wife, me, it days lenght.<>Reggie


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## norseman554 (Apr 9, 2004)

Couple of things from my experience:

I sailed FJ's in collegiate competition back in the '60s, and I loved them. I'm just finishing restoring a '73 Advance FJ for my son and his wife - but I'd never recommend them for a family of four - I used to sail with four, sometimes five, in the boat when I was teaching sailing for the Stanford Sailing Association in the old days - it works, but tacking is a zoo and you definitely don't want to have too many people in an FJ in the kind of wind that it would plane in, because it's highly-powered enough that you really can't dither around tacking or you'll end up on your side. FJ is a great single-handed boat up to a certain level of wind (and singlehanding them used to be my specialty), a great 2-person boat in most all conditions, and sketchy with three unless you don't care about having things go smoothly.

The Y-Flyer. I sailed nbr 810 for several years here in MN - there weren't any other Y-Flyers around, so I sailed against the inland scows. The Y is roughly comparable to the C-scow (20', catboat) in terms of speed. It can be serious fun to sail in a big wind - it planes well, it sails well with just the main if you get overpowered. Because it's designed to be dry if it tips over, the cockpit is narrow - this is true of all the Inland Scows as well - so theyi don't have the room in the cockpit that you'd think they have from their length. The Y-Flyer is a 2-3 person boat, I'd say, to sail in any vaguely fast way. 

I've also sailed a friend's Flying Scot a couple times - there were 5 of us in the boat, and no problem moving around when tacking, or when someone was setting the spinnaker. We were racing, but without really trying tobe competitive. I liked the boat a lot, and if I were making a recommendation, I'd say go with the Flying Scot or the Lightning - I've sailed in them a couple of times many years ago, and have always liked them. That also was usually with like 6 people in the boat - but it was still fun to sail, and there was room for people to move when they needed to.

If you're mentioning the Y-Flyer, I should add that there's a lot of virtues to the inland scows if you want to go fast and have excitement. The C used to be the standard entry boat - 20' catboat with bilgeboards that will plane easily. (There's also the D, which is the same hull, but a sloop) (and then the E, 28' feet long, 3-man minimum, seriously fast, and the ultimate, the A-boat - a 38' long bilgeboard scow - for a long time, and maybe again, the holder of the monohull speed record.)

(Thing to note: the bilgeboards on the inland scows mean that there is no centerboard trunk taking up cockpit space and getting in the way in the cockpit - the bilgeboard trunks are outside the cockpit, and the boards come up through the side decks - so even though the cockpit is narrow, it is unobstructed.)


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## ByrSac (Aug 8, 2001)

Owned an early '60s Flying Scot --- very solid boat. I was surprised to find on a windy day she was easy to keep upright even singlehanding. She had no sailing vices but my wife found the seats extremely uncomfortable.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have a Vanguard Volant which was bought with the same reasoning as yours. Nice family boat for active physical bunch. Kids loved going out on the trap. Roller jib, spinaker chute, trailerable, 18ft. and very fast. Up on a plane with the slightest gust.
Very few made but a jewel if you find one. Have seen some old ones for pretty cheap. Good luck.


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## TheFrog (Oct 25, 2007)

Thanks for the continued feedback. I keep narrowing the list as I see more boats and hear more from all of you.

Based on what I know right now I am focused on 2 boats with a third on the list as a possibility.
1. Flying Scot (lucky for me my garage is ~35' deep so the length is fine including trailer tongue and mast)
2. Harpoon 5.2 - not the fastest boat but certainly stable and acceptable to the wife
3. Lightning (I need to get out at see one)

Vanguard Volant looks interesting but not as stable as the Scot, probably a better boat for when the kids are older.

CL-15 and Precision 15 also need to be investigated more.

Norseman - funny you taught on the FJs at Stanford, that happens to be where I sailed the FJ, it was fun but we were always double handed.


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## rjohnson (Jul 13, 2000)

*O'day Day Sailer*

My vote would be for a Day Sailer, 16'9" long, 525# and room for 6 very intimate adults. OK, 4 adults would be about the max I'd want on a DS, but 2 adults and 2 kids will be plenty of room.
The O'DAY Day Sailer is a fast yet stable design, introduced back in 1959 by George O'Day to promote family sailing without having to keep the boat at a marina. Easily trailerable (although you will want to look for one with a hinged mast, optional until 1982, standard after) with even smaller cars, the boat with trailer and gear should be under 1000#, and the centerboard means she only draws 7" or so with the board retracted.
There is a small cuddy for storage and the kids could probably curl up and nap in there as well. I have owned my DS II for 12 years now and have really enjoyed sailing her on Buzzards Bay (near Cape Cod, and known for being windy). I won't lie and tell you that a Day Sailer can't capsize, but I've never really come close. You will need to sail her like the centerboard boat she is, that is always keep the mainsheet in your hand (a camcleat is provided to hold the tension, but keeping the sheet i nhand allows easily popping it out of the cleat when hit by a gust), reduce sail early (I have reefpoints in my main, and the boat sails quite well without the jib), use a tiller extension so that you can sit on the side deck when the wind pipes up. I sailed solo for the first 10-11 years, but now tend to invite my 70 year old Dad with me and we find the boat very comfortable. One downside to small boats like the Day Sailer, there is no place for a port-a-potty, but I used to sail with my Dad when I was younger than 5 on his 16' sailboat (a Beetle Falcon) and I survived by using a jug.
The DS was built in 4 different versions; The DS I is mostly open with a cuddy, this is the deepest cockpit version, so perhaps most secure with kids, however will not self-bail if any water gets in the bilge. In 1971 O'DAY introduced the DS II with a shallower, self-bailing cockpit and a lockable cuddy. I have this version (a 1979 model). The DS II has a nice flat sole in the cuddy, some were equiped with cushions in there but you wouldn't want to plan on sleeping in there if you are over 5'6" tall, and even then only if you are a backpack camper! However, it does make a great place to put gear and a couple of thin pads would allow the kids to nap. In 1986 O'DAY came out with the DS III, a modified version of the DS II, adding a bit more freeboard near the stern. This version is not "class-legal" but is actually slightly batter for those of us who might want to daysail with family due to the more comfortable cockpit. The present version of the DS is the DS IV and from 1991-95 they were actually built by SUNFISH-LASER, since 1995 they have been built by Cape Cod Shipbuilding. This version of the Day Sailer is sort-of a cross between the DS I and the DS II (and I think it is what the DS II should have been?) Anyway, the deep, non-self-bailing cockpit of the DS I was brought back, but sealed like the DS II so that a flooded cockpit does not flood the whole boat. The cuddy has a much smaller opening than the DS II and III, this turns the cuddy into a flotation airtank, but makes it more of a stowage locker instead of a good spot for kids to nap. The DS II, III, and IV will all be self-rescuing, that is you should be able to right them after a capsize without outside help, although the best way to recover from a capsize is still to avoid going over in the first place.
Price wise, a used DS I will range from $500 to $5,000+ with trailer, a DS II will be about he same, but often is easier to find due to not being as popular with racers (I paid $1400.00 for mine in 1996 with trailer), a DS III will run anywhare from $1000 to 6,000 depending on condition, but most are in the $2-3,000 range. The DS IV will run from about $2,500 to 12,000 since they are newer and many are used for racing. The Day Sailer has a very active racing class and is claimed to be family oriented for racing, well in a way....but the Class Association is geared toward pretty competitive racing....although many crews are multi-generation families!


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## parttimesailor (Sep 18, 2006)

TheFrog said:


> CL-15 and Precision 15 also need to be investigated more.


I can offer comment on the Precision 15 - great little dinghy - available in both a CB and keel version. I sailed the former. Lots of fun - seats 4 with no problem and can seat six (I had 5 in mine).

Can be rigged by just one person - including stepping the mast.

With roller-furling jib - it's very easy to trim and single-hand.

However, it's a very light boat - CB version weighs in at 395 lbs

That means that you and the crew are the ballast. It also means that you would probably not leave it at a mooring with the mast up.

Good luck with your search.


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## davistroy (Sep 3, 2008)

*For Atlanta, the Thistle is your best choice*

Hi, I have sailed on both Lanier and Allatoona (currently belong to Atlanta Yacht Club - google it) and based on your criteria, I would recommend a Thistle - there are many used ones and a large community of sailors at both lakes. It's a great boat for racing, day sailing, family, and it has a spinnaker.

The biggest thing about the Thistle at both Atlanta lakes is the amount of help you will get from the Thistle sailors. Our club also has a very active Thistle social scene (family oriented parties at least once a month - great folks). Our club also has great Opti, Laser, and 420 programs for the kids.

Overall the Thistle is a great racing and family boat and you can get a good one for the price range you are looking at. If you want more info about Allatoona sailing, Atlanta Yacht Club, or the Thistle, email me at davist at mindspring dot com.

Troy


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

If Thistles are big in your area and you can find a good one, that boat is literally the standard by which all others in the class are judged. Portsmouth Number of 83 -- nearly as hot as a 505, not far behind the scows. It's an old-fashiony hull if you ignore the plumb bow, but golly is that mainsail huge. Has a reputation (like the Lightning) as somewhat of a pain-box, lots of sharp edges to bark your shins on, but I woulda killed for a Thistle when I wuz dinghy-hunting. Here's a short video: YouTube has a number of others.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think that this is the best all-around family daysailer out there. If you can find one I am sure that you'll enjoy it.

Mouette 20 Section

Another boat to consider would be a Soling. While it won't fit in your garage, it is an exceptional performer, light enough to trailer and launch easily and has all of the stability and safety that you are looking for. Lots of them around, and good deals can be had.

::::::::::::: ISA - INTERNATIONAL SOLING CLASS ASSOCIATION ::::::::::::::


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## SHays (Apr 24, 2007)

I love my little Bucanneer 18. I have found it a little tippy feeling when you step aboard, but once people are seated in the boat she feels nice and stable... As for fast... she is as sweet as you can get. kids love it, and the boat is so responsive. I found mine for 2000.00. oh... and the boys will love the cutlasses on the mainsail! A good thing about them... their hulls have changed very little over the years, so buying a used one will be similar to buying a late model bucanneer. you can see a picture of my buccaneer under sail on my member photo gallery: SHays


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## TheFrog (Oct 25, 2007)

*Decision made*

Once again thank you all for your help.

Using the feedback from here and other sources I quickly narrowed my search. This week I got an inside tip on a Flying Scot for sale. Price is right for the condition of the boat and everything will be set in a couple of days. Need to do some serious polishing of the hull and some maintenance on the trailer (it has been outside, unused for years).

Yippee!!!

Pictures to follow...


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Ahh.. a boat rescue...

Good for you.

Congratulations, Frog!

David


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