# Mr. B Buys A Boat- Adventures in Boat Shopping



## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

My " Introduce Yourself" posts were morphing into boat shopping discussions, so, I thought this would be a more appropriate place to continue that thread. Biggest thing I've sailed is a Hobie 16. Now, I'm looking to get a proper dry sailing vessel with some of the comforts of home. On advice of a friend who owns a 130" scooner, I am looking at 1980's era Catalina 30's. I've decided that I will stick to older boats whose bulders are still in business (I contacted Catalina about hull numbers and their engineering dept. responded immediately.) so far I have looked at two, a settee model and not sure of the other, I didn't like one because it had an outboard and trim adjusters on the stern. The other just stank of deisel in the cabin. Today, I am looking at a 1980 C30 with a gas Atomic 4 and tomorrow a 1986 C30 with a Universal 21. The 86 is listed for less than the 1980 boat. I'm not sure of what to make of the inverse price relationship. The 1986 owner admits to a small Catalina smile and a need for bottom paint this year. The other guy is just evasive, or worse, just doesn't know, about such things as mast compression and keel separation. He is first up today, so I'll let you all know how that goes. Carry on.


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## elvishessler (Mar 20, 2011)

. On advice of a friend who owns a 130" scooner, 


That is one big schooner.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

Elvis is in the house! (cue band)


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## msmith10 (Feb 28, 2009)

Cat 30 is a fine choice for your wants. Don't let the Atomic 4 scare you if all else is equal. Take someone along who knows (not just thinks they know) what to look for. Once you've made a decision get a survey unless you're just willing to risk the money.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

Just visited the C30 in Marina Del Rey. Guy actaully said the engine runs great but it won't start. End of visit. Next stop, Ventura.


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## Familycruisers (Dec 15, 2011)

bbremer10 said:


> Just visited the C30 in Marina Del Rey. Guy actaully said the engine runs great but it won't start. End of visit. Next stop, Ventura.


Diesel atomic or gas?
First guy that looked at the boat I bought didnt buy it cuz it wouldnt start, whew!! Thank goodness. YMMV


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

bbremer10 said:


> Just visited the C30 in Marina Del Rey. Guy actaully said the engine runs great but it won't start. End of visit. Next stop, Ventura.


It could be something very minor as to why it didn't start. Don't pass on it for just that reason. Look at the whole boat and have the owner figure out the engine problem. 
I used to have a 1979, C-30 and now have a 1987, C34.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

Turns out that what this guy does is buy junkers floating in the marina and turns them on Craig's list. Explains why he could not answer any questions about the boat. He never sailed it. Only had it for six months. Rigging was shot. In fact, the pictures he posted on CL were not even his. They apparently were from the previous owner's failed attempt to sell this tub. Who knows how old those were?! This guy couldn't figure anything out because he knows nothing about the boat.


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

bbremer10 said:


> Turns out that what this guy does is buy junkers floating in the marina and turns them on Craig's list. Explains why he could not answer any questions about the boat. He never sailed it. Only had it for six months. Rigging was shot. In fact, the pictures he posted on CL were not even his. They apparently were from the previous owner's failed attempt to sell this tub. Who knows how old those were?! This guy couldn't figure anything out because he knows nothing about the boat.


In this instance, walking away was the best thing to do.
Don't give up. Thousands of Catalina 30's were built. You shouldn't have a problem finding one to suit your needs and wallet. The 4 years we had ours, we certainly enjoyed it and we really are enjoying our 34 now.


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## Familycruisers (Dec 15, 2011)

bbremer10 said:


> Turns out that what this guy does is buy junkers floating in the marina and turns them on Craig's list. Explains why he could not answer any questions about the boat. He never sailed it. Only had it for six months. Rigging was shot. In fact, the pictures he posted on CL were not even his. They apparently were from the previous owner's failed attempt to sell this tub. Who knows how old those were?! This guy couldn't figure anything out because he knows nothing about the boat.


Or you do the the survey he incapable of. To heck with how they sail, research will tell you that. Thru halls, Stuffing box tubing, stuff that will make it sink, then go from there. Reduce price accordingly. If he doesn't have the education , educate him, but only on the bad.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

bbremer10 said:


> On advice of a friend who owns a 130" scooner, I am looking at 1980's era Catalina 30's.


A 130 inch schooner sounds very cool. Is it a scale model..?

The C-30 is a good boat. In 1988 the wood core in the keel stub was eliminated. If I were to buy one again it would be post 1988. A lot of boat for the money..


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

C30 is a good choice but be aware that there there are quite a few flavors of this boat.
"During the long production run of this basic model there were a great number of variations in rig size, keel configuration , etc.. "
Check here to look up all the various configurations this boat was made with.
CATALINA 30 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
If you want the fastest configuration of C30 you want the full keel with tall mast version. I'd avoid the shoal draft version with the tall mast, in fact I'd avoid the shoal draft and wing keeled versions altogether unless that option appeals to you.


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

Check out the Catalina 30 owners website. Lots of help to be found there.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

CalebD said:


> I'd avoid the shoal draft version with the tall mast, in fact I'd avoid the shoal draft and wing keeled versions altogether unless that option appeals to you.


Caleb, sorry but I think you're a bit off base on this one. For cruising there is surprisingly little difference between the full keeled and wing keeled versions.

There is an active C30 racing community and the fin will make a difference if you want to race.

Jim


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

chuck53 said:


> Check out the Catalina 30 owners website. Lots of help to be found there.


You can find them at International Catalina 30 Association


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I don't think you'll find a C30 in California for $12,000 that doesn't have some major issues to address.


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## benajah (Mar 28, 2011)

Familycruisers said:


> bbremer10 said:
> 
> 
> > Turns out that what this guy does is buy junkers floating in the marina and turns them on Craig's list. Explains why he could not answer any questions about the boat. He never sailed it. Only had it for six months. Rigging was shot. In fact, the pictures he posted on CL were not even his. They apparently were from the previous owner's failed attempt to sell this tub. Who knows how old those were?! This guy couldn't figure anything out because he knows nothing about the boat.
> ...


You can get some really good deals this way if you know how to survey a boat yourself. There are often people trying to get rid of boats they just got ahold of somehow and want to flip them for a few hundred bucks profit.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

benajah said:


> You can get some really good deals this way if you know how to survey a boat yourself. There are often people trying to get rid of boats they just got ahold of somehow and want to flip them for a few hundred bucks profit.


Knowing how to survey a boat does not qualify one as a "Marine Surveyor". All insurance companies I know of want to see a NAMS or SAMS survey report before issuing coverage. Most all marinas require insurance. No survey report, no insurance...

I just recently had a customer call me for an "insurance survey" and he was then told by his insurance company that I could not do it for him.

Despite having worked on boats for a loooong time, understanding all aspects of them better than many surveyors I know, and being an ABYC certified marine electrical & systems specialist it still did not matter to the underwriter.

They demanded a report by only a NAMS or SAMS surveyor.... So the issue of an accreditation of NAMS or SAMS matters more to most insurance companies than the actual ability to conduct a thorough survey.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

JimMcGee said:


> There is an active C30 racing community and the fin will make a difference if you want to race.
> 
> Jim


I guess that was my point Jim. We race our Tartan 27' against one C30 that I believe is the standard rig (fin keel but standard height mast) and often we beat him to the finish. There is another C30 at our club with the 'tall mast' version whose PHRF handicap is much lower then the other C30 we race against. The TM C30 has such a low PHRF it is not even in our racing division.

For cruising I'm sure it makes less of a difference. I'm just not a fan of winged keels as once I spent the night on an O'Day 272 that grounded and could not get off as the tide went out. The boat was left high and dry on the beach standing on the wing keel as the tide went out. Quite a night.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I have to agree with Caleb. The average PHRF ratings for the different versions of the Cat 30 vary from 171 to 192. The tall mast helps a lot in low wind areas, and the fin keel will result in better upwind performance. Not the the other versions are bad boats, just that the tall mast fin keel version is the best performer.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

I'm more risk averse than some.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

So, did not get up to Ventura to look at that Cat30 boat. I am realizing that for $12k I'll be looking at 30 foot boats that need some significant fixing, or at least sprucing up. The original reason for looking for a 30 footer is that that is what has been recommended as the more comfortable size to make the San Pedro channel crossing to Catalina with my family aboard. But, realistically, I'll never get my wife to make that 5-6 hour crossing on a sailboat. So, I went on a tangent and found what I thought would be a decent power boat ( am I allowed to utter that phrase here?). Wife seemed more interested in participating with a V8 attached to the hull. Looked at the boat. Seemed solid given its age. Nice marine Power V8 about 6years old (ad said, "New motor!") attached to a Volvo Penta Duoprop drive of unknown vintage. Took it for a spin around the harbor, on plane for just a couple seconds in the harbor mouth. Everything sounded good. Agreed to write up a purchase agreement with deposit and do a full-on mechanical and marine survey. The survey was going along just fine. Just the usual stuff one would expect of an older vessel, but the engine was good. But when we hauled her out it turns out only one prop was driving the boat. The other was just free wheeling on its shaft. An expensive fix. And this would prevent us from doing a sea trial as the boat would never get up to top speed with only one prop driving the boat. I told the seller I'd like to price out repairs and decide if I am willing to purchase the boat without a sea trial. I decided, no. He can fix his boat and then offer it up for sale again, but I'm not gonna buy a boat without a sea trial. Not even if it's free. Now he's trying a counter offer and not giving me back my deposit as required by the offer to purchase agreement. His counter offer involves me pitching in to replace the props so we can do a sea trial. My last message to him stated i was not interested in fixing HIS boat. I'm not too worried about getting my deposit back. I know how to collect money, but jeez, what a douche. Lesson learned. Back to looking for a sailboat.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

Realizing that a 30 footer is going to blow my budget- I can buy the boat , but not do any significant repairs/restoration- I'm scaling back the size. I looked at a 1970 Ericson 23. I thought, before I saw it, it would be way too small or a complete wreck. However, upon actually looking at it, it is in decent shape and surprisingly roomy for such a compact boat. In fact, the cockpit is much roomier that a Macgregor 26x (oops! The dreaded "M" word! Sorry...) and the below decks is actually quite comfortable, even though you cannot stand up in it. Comes with a Honda 4 stroke, 6 horse, long shaft (ten hours). The owner had just sailed it over from Catalina Harbor, so with a skilled skipper, it can make that crossing. Not that I would attempt it just yet. At $1500, it poses little risk for me and seems a good way to ease into sail baoting. And at that price, I would have more than enough funds to fix her up to my liking. Opinions, please.....( I know those are hard to come by here...)


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

CalebD said:


> I guess that was my point Jim. We race our Tartan 27' against one C30 that I believe is the standard rig (fin keel but standard height mast) and often we beat him to the finish. There is another C30 at our club with the 'tall mast' version whose PHRF handicap is much lower then the other C30 we race against. The TM C30 has such a low PHRF it is not even in our racing division.
> 
> For cruising I'm sure it makes less of a difference. I'm just not a fan of winged keels as once I spent the night on an O'Day 272 that grounded and could not get off as the tide went out. The boat was left high and dry on the beach standing on the wing keel as the tide went out. Quite a night.


Racing is so far off my radar as to not even be a concern. I'll leave that to the skilled sailers here.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

Maine Sail said:


> Knowing how to survey a boat does not qualify one as a "Marine Surveyor". All insurance companies I know of want to see a NAMS or SAMS survey report before issuing coverage. Most all marinas require insurance. No survey report, no insurance...
> 
> I just recently had a customer call me for an "insurance survey" and he was then told by his insurance company that I could not do it for him.
> 
> ...


The marinas want a recent survey- within the last 24 months- for older boats. The insurance company will let me do a self survey.


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## Mobnets (Apr 24, 2011)

bbremer10:
That's sounds like a very good way to get started. 

I started with a 23 foot sailboat in that price range with basic overnight amenities that had no issues other than cosmetics. "Dinkin" around for a couple summers in that boat honed my sailing, boat handling, and maintainance skills and got my wife absolutely hooked not only on sailing, but on a bigger boat that would comfortably overnight more than two adults and be a better refuge for hours or days at the slip when the weather was bad. It's nice when your other half is already on board when you broach the subject of a bigger boat.

The only problems I had were outboard motor-related and the only thing I would have done differently would have been to junk the old motor that came with the boat immediately and buy a new or at least reliable outboard right from the start.

Again, this sounds like a logical, low-risk way to get started. Motor sounds like a good deal as well. I would have found a 30-35 foot boat extremely intimidating if I'd started out with that. After a couple of years on the 23 footer, moving up was easy . . . for both of us.

Mobnets
1973 Paceship Chance 32/28 "Westwind"


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

Mobnets said:


> bbremer10:
> That's sounds like a very good way to get started.
> 
> I started with a 23 foot sailboat in that price range with basic overnight amenities that had no issues other than cosmetics. "Dinkin" around for a couple summers in that boat honed my sailing, boat handling, and maintainance skills and got my wife absolutely hooked not only on sailing, but on a bigger boat that would comfortably overnight more than two adults and be a better refuge for hours or days at the slip when the weather was bad. It's nice when your other half is already on board when you broach the subject of a bigger boat.
> ...


Thanks for that feedback. Plus, in this case, I know the pedigree on the outboard. The dive shop at Two Harbors sells their little outboards every two years just a matter of policy, regardless of hours used. This one was sold off after 10 hours.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

Friday, supposed to go down to the marina to buy the old 23 foot Ericson. She's in what they call a "temporary" slip. Good for six months. Turns out the city owned and operated marina is being rebuilt and in the future, they do not want any boats smaller than 27 feet. WTF? They currently have over 500 empty berths and they are turning away business. Anyone have a four foot long bow pulpit?


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

Ah, when the economy was better maybe the marinas decided to replace small slips with bigger ones so they could soak the rich yachties. 

If the 23 footer doesn't pan out, have you considered looking at Catalina 27s? I think of them as the "littlest big boats".


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Oh, bbremer, so close, yet so far.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

bljones said:


> Oh, bbremer, so close, yet so far.


So true...in a very Zen like way. A wee small voice keeps whispering, "Motor boat, motor boat...". MAKE IT STOP!!!!!


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

bbrem, what is your absolute, not a penny more, topped out, this is all I've got budget for a purchase?


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

bbremer10 said:


> Realizing that a 30 footer is going to blow my budget- I can buy the boat , but not do any significant repairs/restoration- I'm scaling back the size. I looked at a 1970 Ericson 23. I thought, before I saw it, it would be way too small or a complete wreck. However, upon actually looking at it, it is in decent shape and surprisingly roomy for such a compact boat. In fact, the cockpit is much roomier that a Macgregor 26x (oops! The dreaded "M" word! Sorry...) and the below decks is actually quite comfortable, even though you cannot stand up in it. Comes with a Honda 4 stroke, 6 horse, long shaft (ten hours). The owner had just sailed it over from Catalina Harbor, so with a skilled skipper, it can make that crossing. Not that I would attempt it just yet. At $1500, it poses little risk for me and seems a good way to ease into sail baoting. And at that price, I would have more than enough funds to fix her up to my liking. Opinions, please.....( I know those are hard to come by here...)


By a coincidence I was at the yard last Friday to pick up our boat (bottom painting) and there was a restored E-23 Mk2 on a trailer there! Owner had brought it in for some thru hull work, they said. As the smallest Bruce King-designed boat from Ericson Yachts, it looks as nice as ever...
There are enthusiastic owners of this model over at EricsonYachts.org: The Starting Point on Ericson Yachts!, and there's at least one other E-23 web site as well.

With the construction and engineering of the larger Ericsons, it's quite a classic pocket cruiser.

As far as hull size... we spent five years cruising and class racing a Ranger 20. Loved every minute of it. Then came a decade in a fast 26 footer performance cruiser. Since '94 we've been cruising our 34 footer.

Unsolicited Advice from up here in the third balcony: Buy a smaller high quality boat and keep it a while and sail the heck out of it. There are a LOT of unhappy owners out there with large cheapie-build boats that are neither any fun to sail not inexpensive to maintain as their poorly-engineered hulls, rigs, and internal parts fail in a premature old age. 
Try to buy all the quality you can afford in the smallest boat that will meet your real needs.

Regards,
LB


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

bljones said:


> bbrem, what is your absolute, not a penny more, topped out, this is all I've got budget for a purchase?


$8100.00...8700 when I collect the deposit from the jackass with the motor boat with the spun props who thinks that an offer to purchase is a contract to buy. But that's another story....Why? Whataya got in mind?


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

olson34 said:


> By a coincidence I was at the yard last Friday to pick up our boat (bottom painting) and there was a restored E-23 Mk2 on a trailer there! Owner had brought it in for some thru hull work, they said...
> Unsolicited Advice from up here in the third balcony: Buy a smaller high <snip>
> Regards,
> LB


If you were there in the afternoon, you'd have seen a 22 foot Fiberform on the 35 ton sling. That's when we found the spun props and I withdrew my offer to purchase. The owner of that boat spent all morning complaining about losing business because he wasn't at his office and then he was really upset when I pulled the plug on the offer to purchase. But, tough ****. Not gonna buy a boat I can't sea trail. He actually expected me to replace the props on my dime because he was absolutly sure it would pass sea trial with new props. I told him that's not how it works. It's his boat. If he wants to repair HIS boat and offer it up for sale again, have at it. Still hasn't refunded my depsit (Not too worried about that. I know how to collect money.). Do sellers not understand that selling a vessel requires some effort on their part?

If I'm posting, I'm soliciting advice. Bring it on y'all!


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I admit to being unaware of the realities of the California boat-buying market, but can you really not find a decent Catalina 27 for $8500?

Jesus, I know you're all sick of hearing about it but I bought an excellent Pearson 30 for $4,000! Are the markets of Annapolis and California really so different?


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

olson34 said:


> By a coincidence I was at the yard last Friday to pick up our boat (bottom painting) and there was a restored E-23 Mk2 on a trailer there! Owner had brought it in for some thru hull work, they said. As the smallest Bruce King-designed boat from Ericson Yachts, it looks as nice as ever...
> There are enthusiastic owners of this model over at EricsonYachts.org: The Starting Point on Ericson Yachts!, and there's at least one other E-23 web site as well.
> 
> With the construction and engineering of the larger Ericsons, it's quite a classic pocket cruiser.
> ...





BubbleheadMd said:


> I admit to being unaware of the realities of the California boat-buying market, but can you really not find a decent Catalina 27 for $8500?
> 
> Jesus, I know you're all sick of hearing about it but I bought an excellent Pearson 30 for $4,000! Are the markets of Annapolis and California really so different?


Trouble is having to sort through all the ads that make false, or at least, uninformed claims. I am shocked that so many owners know so little about their boats. I believe that in So. Cal. we have a very large population of floating condos- boats that NEVER get sailed. I've resorted to a paper screening process. I ask a lot of questions via e-mail (so I can have a record of written responses) before I decide if I want to go see the boat. And I am also dismayed my the prevailing attitude of, stop-asking-so-many-questions- just-buy-my-boat! Craig's List boat ads are really entertaining, though.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

If you insist on a stinkpotter, avoid volvo and OMC outdrives.
Go see this one:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...&access=Public&listing_id=1887&url=&imc=pg-fs


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm sure you have done this search, right?

California sailboats for sale by owner.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

bljones said:


> If you insist on a stinkpotter, avoid volvo and OMC outdrives.
> Go see this one:
> 
> http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...&access=Public&listing_id=1887&url=&imc=pg-fs


Can't think of of anything stinkier than a diesel. I looked at a diesel powered CAT30 and could not tolerate the smell below decks. I've looked at CAT30's with dead Atomics in the engine bay and a small outboard on the transom. No thanks. I have done the search on this sight, but not for a week or so. Going there now to see what's popped up recently. Thanks for the reminder. I just remembered. I've seen this boat listed before. There was something not right about it....


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Diesel smell can be fixed- a good cleaning is all it needs, and with the cost of gas getting stupid, you gotta like the Yanmar 1/4 gallon/hr efficiency.... and the higher resale down the road over a gas engine.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

bljones said:


> Diesel smell can be fixed- a good cleaning is all it needs, and with the cost of gas getting stupid, you gotta like the Yanmar 1/4 gallon/hr efficiency.... and the higher resale down the road over a gas engine.


 That's good to know. I figured the smell was likely due to poor housekeeping. How much horsepower should I look for in a 27-30 foot boat?


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

rgscpat said:


> Ah, when the economy was better maybe the marinas decided to replace small slips with bigger ones so they could soak the rich yachties.
> 
> If the 23 footer doesn't pan out, have you considered looking at Catalina 27s? I think of them as the "littlest big boats".


If they are renting out the whole slip, why do they care what size boat is in it? There's a slip near me, 32ft, with a dinghy in it.


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## Chadfunk48 (Jun 8, 2006)

The length of the boat isn't so important as weight when you're considering how many horsies to put in it. Some people say about 3 or 4 HP per ton.


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

Horsepower - 20-25 for a Catalina or equiv.


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## Chadfunk48 (Jun 8, 2006)

I just found that Yanmar says 1hp for 500 on their website.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

MarkSF said:


> If they are renting out the whole slip, why do they care what size boat is in it? There's a slip near me, 32ft, with a dinghy in it.


 It's a city owned and operated marina. Nothing they do makes sense.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I admit to being unaware of the realities of the California boat-buying market, but can you really not find a decent Catalina 27 for $8500?
> 
> Jesus, I know you're all sick of hearing about it but I bought an excellent Pearson 30 for $4,000! Are the markets of Annapolis and California really so different?


I've seen Catalina 27s for sale and that would be the top of the range. Usually they go for 6-7K.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

jsaronson said:


> Horsepower - 20-25 for a Catalina or equiv.


Are you trying to make a Catalina 27 plane?
Often skippers end up with more engine than they need, based on the bigger is better philosophy or a failure to understand that torque is a better measure of an engine's ability than hp. Personally, I blame the Atomic 4 for this trend- because that lump put out 30 hp, owners though they NEED 30 hp on their next boat, never realizing that the peak hp of an atomic is at 3500 rpm, while usually cruiseat hull speed is at 2000-2400 rpm, where the engine is developing only 16-18 hp... if that, since the hp specs given are factory specs from a fresh engine.

I've got a 4400 lb boat, which often cruises with 1000 lbs of crew, dogs, fuel, and stores powered by a yanmar 1GM which has no problem cruising all day long at hull speed at 2400 rpm.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

bljones said:


> Are you trying to make a Catalina 27 plane?
> Often skippers end up with more engine than they need, based on the bigger is better philosophy or a failure to understand that torque is a better measure of an engine's ability than hp. Personally, I blame the Atomic 4 for this trend- because that lump put out 30 hp, owners though they NEED 30 hp on their next boat, never realizing that the peak hp of an atomic is at 3500 rpm, while usually cruiseat hull speed is at 2000-2400 rpm, where the engine is developing only 16-18 hp... if that, since the hp specs given are factory specs from a fresh engine.
> 
> I've got a 4400 lb boat, which often cruises with 1000 lbs of crew, dogs, fuel, and stores powered by a yanmar 1GM which has no problem cruising all day long at hull speed at 2400 rpm.


You are correct, sir! It is my understanding that in order to produce the higher horsepower these engines have to run relatively high RPM's. Is it true that the 30 horse and the 12 or so horse is the same engine with the lower HP rated engine being governed?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

bbremer10 said:


> Is it true that the 30 horse and the 12 or so horse is the same engine with the lower HP rated engine being governed?


Often that is the case, although "detuned" might be a better term than "governed"


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

Now I've been presented for my consideration a 1973 Ranger 29 with Atomic 4 that runs (gas) for $5000. Quick Google search tells me the keels were molded into the hull and the ballast poured in. So no keel separation concerns? Or maybe that's worse as a keel separation would actually be a big hole in the hull?


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

Have you looked at Schock Santana's? They made 2 30 foot varieties...I have the Santana 30, and there is a Santana 30/30. They are still in business making boats and they sail very well...the 30/30 is a pretty fast boat. The 30 is not as fast...BUT is a very sturdy boat. I bought one for under $7K...NEW Yanmar in it, and I just did the catalina trip in 15-20 foot waves and 25+ MPH winds...stable as a rock and wa making 7 knots in the old girl. My buddy I bought it from only sold it to get a Schock 35, as he wants to do some racing and the extra room works for his family. He used to get from San Pedro to Avalon in like 3 hours in the Santana 30. I have seen many in the $6-10k range that I wished I had jumped on just to flip...great boats.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

NewportNewbie said:


> Have you looked at Schock Santana's? They made 2 30 foot varieties...I have the Santana 30, and there is a Santana 30/30. They are still in business making boats and they sail very well...the 30/30 is a pretty fast boat. The 30 is not as fast...BUT is a very sturdy boat. I bought one for under $7K...NEW Yanmar in it, and I just did the catalina trip in 15-20 foot waves and 25+ MPH winds...stable as a rock and wa making 7 knots in the old girl. My buddy I bought it from only sold it to get a Schock 35, as he wants to do some racing and the extra room works for his family. He used to get from San Pedro to Avalon in like 3 hours in the Santana 30. I have seen many in the $6-10k range that I wished I had jumped on just to flip...great boats.


Haven't seen any for sale around here.


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

Here are 2.....
A Santana 30 asking $11.9k
1978 Schock Santana Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

and a Santana 30/30 asking $13.5k
1983 Schock Santana 30 30GP Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I'd say that both are probably $9k boats at first glance..The S30, maybe $8k.

Keep an eye out, they sell quick. I see them frequently on craigslist. There was one is Seattle for $3k!


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

bbremer10 said:


> If you were there in the afternoon, you'd have seen a 22 foot Fiberform on the 35 ton sling. That's when we found the spun props and I withdrew my offer to purchase. The owner of that boat spent all morning complaining about losing business because he wasn't at his office and then he was really upset when I pulled the plug on the offer to purchase. But, tough ****. Not gonna buy a boat I can't sea trail. He actually expected me to replace the props on my dime because he was absolutly sure it would pass sea trial with new props. I told him that's not how it works. It's his boat. If he wants to repair HIS boat and offer it up for sale again, have at it. Still hasn't refunded my depsit (Not too worried about that. I know how to collect money.). Do sellers not understand that selling a vessel requires some effort on their part?
> 
> If I'm posting, I'm soliciting advice. Bring it on y'all!


Well, that's a coincidence!
Danish Marine, in Portland, OR??

While you're there, take a look at that clean Scampi 30, at the brokerage below the yard (Passion Yachts). Friend of mine listed it after they moved up to a 37 footer... they would like it to go to a new home...


BTW, I admit that I have always wondered about all the "monkey motion" needed to make the Duo Prop idea workable. 
As if all IO's do not have enough built-in maintenance woes as it is. 

Cheers,
LB


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

NewportNewbie said:


> Here are 2.....
> A Santana 30 asking $11.9k
> 1978 Schock Santana Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
> 
> ...


 I did see this one today while walking the docks in Alamitos! Took a few pictures of it. Looks like it once had a wheel helm that has been removed and a big fiberglass patch on the bow starting from below the waterline. Looks like it's been molested over the years. Didn't look that well cared for. But what do I know...http://www.sailnet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10518&stc=1&d=1333585467


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

olson34 said:


> Well, that's a coincidence!
> Danish Marine, in Portland, OR??
> 
> While you're there, take a look at that clean Scampi 30, at the brokerage below the yard (Passion Yachts). Friend of mine listed it after they moved up to a 37 footer... they would like it to go to a new home...
> ...


Ha! No. Around here when you mention the boatyard it's assumed you mean The Boatyard in Marina Del Rey. That's actually the name of the business.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

I love the lines on the older cabin cruisers/sport fishers. So for giggles I contact a Craig's List poster about his 1975 Skipjack. So happens it's at the marina I was at today. First thing I notice is the sagging forward deck. Typical for this age/style of boat. Message the guy back about the sagging deck and politley say I'm going to pass on the boat. Guy responds, "Not sure what you mean by sagging." Another boat flipper?http://www.sailnet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10519&stc=1&d=1333591446


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

bljones said:


> Are you trying to make a Catalina 27 plane?
> Often skippers end up with more engine than they need, based on the bigger is better philosophy or a failure to understand that torque is a better measure of an engine's ability than hp. Personally, I blame the Atomic 4 for this trend- because that lump put out 30 hp, owners though they NEED 30 hp on their next boat, never realizing that the peak hp of an atomic is at 3500 rpm, while usually cruiseat hull speed is at 2000-2400 rpm, where the engine is developing only 16-18 hp... if that, since the hp specs given are factory specs from a fresh engine.
> 
> I've got a 4400 lb boat, which often cruises with 1000 lbs of crew, dogs, fuel, and stores powered by a yanmar 1GM which has no problem cruising all day long at hull speed at 2400 rpm.


BLJ,
Blame Atomic 4 engines if you must. Yes they are rated to 30 HP, and no, they don't really like running at full throttle. 
They were also installed in boats up to about 34' in length; some still purring along. I am actually enjoying keeping my 45 year old Atomic 4 in shape; they are easier to care for then you may think.
The stink of a little gasoline does not scare me more then the bad smell of a holding tank or diesel fuel mixed together. Properly managed gasoline is not

Smells. 
Diesel?
Gasoline?
Holding tank?

They can all be remedied by proper maintenance usually.

There are probably very few a Tartan 27's for sale on the left coast.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

It's over! I bought a 1970 Ericson 23, named Lola. Gone sailing....


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

bbremer10 said:


> It's over! I bought a 1970 Ericson 23, named Lola. Gone sailing....


Congrats!


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Congrats!

Got enough left in your kitty to buy a small inflatable/big O/B go-fast to keep the speed demon spouse happy?


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

bljones said:


> Congrats!
> 
> Got enough left in your kitty to buy a small inflatable/big O/B go-fast to keep the speed demon spouse happy?


Yes, actually. That's not a bad idea.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

of course it's not a bad idea. It's mine.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

bbremer10 said:


> It's over! I bought a 1970 Ericson 23, named Lola. Gone sailing....


Always liked the looks of those little guys. King was in his glory then - the 23, 37, 39 & 46 were all very good looking boats. I always wished he had done one around 32' or so to that styling theme.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

*Adventures in Boat Shopping*



SloopJonB said:


> Always liked the looks of those little guys. King was in his glory then - the 23, 37, 39 & 46 were all very good looking boats. I always wished he had done one around 32' or so to that styling theme.


Actually, Bruce did. 70's Ericson 32-2. They build a ton of them.
Irony alert! Since many of us nowadays refer to boats like 23's (and 24 and 25) as little boats, I remember when we were moving UP to a larger "cruising" boat like our first Ranger 20.... having owned a 14 foot centerboarder before that.

Back in 1980, I recall NA Ray Richards saying that he designed all of the amenities into his R-20 after he thought about roughing it during overnighters in his boyhood Lightning... with a tarp over the boom. And how little room he had sleeping beside the centerboard trunk.
Compared to those earllier days, the R-20 was absolutely luxurious. 

Boats like the Ericson 23 were a whole 'nother leap up the Yachting Scale! I remember looking at a new E-23-2 in the 70's and wishing we could afford one.... but it took a bank loan just to afford that new Ranger.

Sorry for the segue/mini hijack for a fine thread............

That is all. Carry on.

LB


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Adventures in Boat Shopping*



olson34 said:


> Actually, Bruce did. 70's Ericson 32-2. They build a ton of them.


But it had the boxy cabin top, not the sleek, almost flush deck styling of the 23 & 37 or the true flush deck of the 39 & 46.

The E32 is a very nice boat - currently high on my "next boat" list but it ain't racy looking like the others mentioned.  I'd actually prefer the 34X but they're pretty rare and a more extreme IOR hull.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

*Re: Adventures in Boat Shopping*



SloopJonB said:


> But it had the boxy cabin top, not the sleek, almost flush deck styling of the 23 & 37 or the true flush deck of the 39 & 46.
> 
> The E32 is a very nice boat - currently high on my "next boat" list but it ain't racy looking like the others mentioned.  I'd actually prefer the 34X but they're pretty rare and a more extreme IOR hull.


Ah so. You're right on all counts. FWIW, there's an nice looking E-37 for sale today on CL in Portland, OR.

L


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Adventures in Boat Shopping*



olson34 said:


> Ah so. You're right on all counts. FWIW, there's an nice looking E-37 for sale today on CL in Portland, OR.


Yeah, I saw that one - unfortunately I'm not at the "next boat" point yet - I'd be doing the dreaded "two boat" thing instead. A while back there was a 34X in Portland that was for sale for a long time - it went cheap enough that I was tempted but wiser heads prevailed.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

ruparthomes said:


> If you have a fond of set up shipping business than you have to take a some smart decision to get a qualitative as well as quantitative in terms of buying a boat. You have to use this boat as a business purpose as well as personal. It denoted as a most adventures.


Thanks for that, only 4 posts and you have already been a huge suppository of knowledge.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

Followup: Having purchased my first boat last April, a 1970 Ericson 23, the first thing I did was have her hauled out and the bottom stripped and painted. The cost was nearly twice the purchase price, but it needed to be done and I had budgeted for it. Subsequent bottom jobs will be less. I took a basic keel boat sailing course and spent last summer happily sailing Lola back and forth across the Long Beach harbor. At the end of summer, I noticed some frayed rigging. I called a local shop and prepared for an expensive service call. However, the rigger did not try to gouge me and did only what was necessary- replacing the inner shrouds and main halyard and tuning the rigging. Having gained my trust I had him replace the VHF antenna and anchor light. My neighbor told me the guy spent two days on her. Got out for less than a grand. I replaced the two year old outboard. Although it ran just fine, I had no service records and I did not like the location of the shifter on the side. Plus it had a nasty pull to port in reverse. I'm in a very narrow channel and it was a pain in the ass. So, I ordered up a brand new Tohatsu Sail Pro with and extra long shaft and a shifter on the front of the motor. Much better! And I was able to sell the "old" motor to a neighbor who was tired of her fussy old two-stroke. She's on the opposite side of the slip so the prop walk will work in her favor. I also have begun to eliminate unnecessary electronics. I've removed the stereo and two heavy speakers and the REALLY unnecessary electric water pump under the sink. I have removed the no longer functioning original cabin lights, replaced with individual battery powered LED fixtures. I replaced the main winch with a self tailing winch (the second most expensive new item after the motor). I had the cabin upholstery redone, surprisingly expensive. I had to move the fairlead that directs the main halyard back to the cockpit- its previous location had the halyard rubbing against the yard arm and hanging up on the steaming light. Sail goes up nice and easy now. The genoa needed repair as the previous owner told me before purchase. The repair was surprisingly inexpensive. Oddly, the furler was missing a very small but essential part that prevented me from rigging up the genoa. I had to do a little research to identify the furler and locate the manufacturer who sold me the needed part. Then I discoverd that the furler line was to thick and would not allow me to completely furl the genoa. Several of the lines on the boat were unnecessarily thick and I've been replacing them with lighter but more appropriate lines. Bigger is not always better. Now the debate is to paint the deck or not. If it's too much money I'll take the advice of another sailor and just sail her as is as long as she sails well. Which she does. I'm still learning, but last Sunday (I am in California, after all) I got it all just right and was able to let go of the tiller, sit back and just enjoy the 5 knots ride. It was a beautiful day on the water.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

You could paint the deck with Interlux Brightside (shiny bits) and Interdeck (nonskid) for relatively little money and a bit of elbow grease. A scuff sanding of the clear bits, and a vigours TSP scrub of the nonskid should get you to the painting point. These are not expensive paints relatively speaking, and do a decent job.

The Interdeck is a pretty decent grip, rolls out evenly and seems to stand up pretty well. We've had a two coat treatment on our cockpit sole that is going on 6 years old now. Kiwi grip is another popular product but I don't know about the pricing..

Anyhow nice to hear you're making good use of her and improving as you go!


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

Faster said:


> You could paint the deck with Interlux Brightside (shiny bits) and Interdeck (nonskid) for relatively little money and a bit of elbow grease. A scuff sanding of the clear bits, and a vigours TSP scrub of the nonskid should get you to the painting point. These are not expensive paints relatively speaking, and do a decent job.
> 
> The Interdeck is a pretty decent grip, rolls out evenly and seems to stand up pretty well. We've had a two coat treatment on our cockpit sole that is going on 6 years old now. Kiwi grip is another popular product but I don't know about the pricing..
> 
> Anyhow nice to hear you're making good use of her and improving as you go!


Thanks! I am supposed to get back a quote for deck painting today. Almost all of the deck is molded in non-skid. 
As far as DIY-wouldn't I have to remove all of the rigging and hardware or would it be OK to paint around it all?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

It's definitely best to remove as much hardware as you can, esp if this is you're 'forever' boat. But careful masking and caution with the brush can result in an acceptable job and will likely raise the resale value - or at least the resale-ability of the boat quite a lot if it's not your 'forever' boat...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

bbremer10 said:


> Thanks! I am supposed to get back a quote for deck painting today.


Hope you are well braced.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

bbremer10 said:


> Thanks! I am supposed to get back a quote for deck painting today. Almost all of the deck is molded in non-skid.
> As far as DIY-wouldn't I have to remove all of the rigging and hardware or would it be OK to paint around it all?


Remove what can be easily removed, and mask off the rest. It's not a hard chocre to sand and paint the deck on your boat, and faster has the right idea. we are going into our third season on opur decks repainted with brightsides and intergrip, and it has held up well with little wear, enduring two dogs and numerous hapless guests.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

Rolling and tipping- this is laying on a heavy coat with a roller and lightly brushing it out, at least on the smooth areas? Whats the technique on the non skid areas...just roller, no brush?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

bbremer10 said:


> Rolling and tipping- this is laying on a heavy coat with a roller and lightly brushing it out, at least on the smooth areas? Whats the technique on the non skid areas...just roller, no brush?


If you're doing nonskid with inter deck a roller will do nicely-I think kiwi grip is applied with roller as well. "Roll and tip" is a non-spray technique to get as high gloss a finish as possible. Tipping takes out the typical stipple most rollers leave behind. Yes it would only be used on the smooth areas.

Btw a heavy rolled on coat would likely still sag after tipping.. Multiple thin coats is a better bet.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

when rolling on non-skid, roll first in this direction / over the surface, then roll acorss the surface in this direction \ to even it all out and eliminate marks.

It really is easy.

The rolling part is self explanatory, the "tipping" is just LIGHTLY dragging a brush across the work to remove bubbles, lay down the stippling of the roller, and help the paint flow out. You not really painting with the brush, in fact it might best be described as UNpainting.
tip like you are doing a "touch and go" in an airplane. Gently and smoothly land the brush on the wet surface on the move, move it across the work and gently and smoothly lift off.

I recommend buying a cheap piece of 4x8 good -one -side plywood and paint it, practicing your technique. Then cut it into 2 2x8 lengths, lay on top of some 4x4s resting on sawhorses, and now you have some scaffolding to walk on when painting the side decks.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

Thanks for the painting tips. That's very helpful.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

I heard back from the painter. His quote was $7,400. So, I will be attempting to spruce up the deck myself. It's not my "forever" boat so the 7G paint job on a $1300 boat doesn't make any sense. I just need to keep the thing in a state of arrested decay until I move up to a bigger family boat.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

bbremer10 said:


> Thanks! I am supposed to get back a quote for deck painting today.





SloopJonB said:


> Hope you are well braced.





bbremer10 said:


> I heard back from the painter. His quote was $7,400.


Prophetic words, SJB!!!

Pretty outrageous quote for something so easily done DIY... you'll manage fine, I'm sure.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Faster said:


> Prophetic words, SJB!!!
> 
> Pretty outrageous quote for something so easily done DIY... you'll manage fine, I'm sure.


If it was just to do the non-skid it is indeed outrageous. If it's to do a quality job on the whole deck - shiny bits & all, I'd want that much - it can be a monster job getting all the hardware off, the nooks & crannies prepped etc.


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## bbremer10 (Mar 19, 2012)

I have seen this guy's work and it is spectacular. But, off I go to read up on the subject. The adventure continues...


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## NJBoatDad (Apr 2, 2013)

bbremer10 said:


> My " Introduce Yourself" posts were morphing into boat shopping discussions, so, I thought this would be a more appropriate place to continue that thread. Biggest thing I've sailed is a Hobie 16. Now, I'm looking to get a proper dry sailing vessel with some of the comforts of home. On advice of a friend who owns a 130" scooner, I am looking at 1980's era Catalina 30's. I've decided that I will stick to older boats whose bulders are still in business (I contacted Catalina about hull numbers and their engineering dept. responded immediately.) so far I have looked at two, a settee model and not sure of the other, I didn't like one because it had an outboard and trim adjusters on the stern. The other just stank of deisel in the cabin. Today, I am looking at a 1980 C30 with a gas Atomic 4 and tomorrow a 1986 C30 with a Universal 21. The 86 is listed for less than the 1980 boat. I'm not sure of what to make of the inverse price relationship. The 1986 owner admits to a small Catalina smile and a need for bottom paint this year. The other guy is just evasive, or worse, just doesn't know, about such things as mast compression and keel separation. He is first up today, so I'll let you all know how that goes. Carry on.


A 130' scooner! That is some friend!!!!


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