# Marlow Hunter OK?



## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

Well here we go again but.... Someone close to the company, had been a dealer for many years, posted on SBO that they are apparently shuttered since 6/30/17. He is trying for more info, the website is still good but, if you call, everything goes to voice mail.

Didn't we run through all this a while back???? Who knows but this would be a bit of a blow to the customer base. Anyone wanna take up the slack?


Let the conjecture begin...... Anyone have any further info?


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

Friend called a dealer in Michigan, looks like production is shut down at this time.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

It doesn't surprise me at all. The Marlow direction doesn't work.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Shame... 

Geesh I hope its only a setback for Hunter. There just aren't the volumes involved in "production sailboats" I guess.


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Summer vacation for the workers?


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

ianjoub said:


> Summer vacation for the workers?


Well apparently "Bill in rigging" answered the phone......


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

cb32863 said:


> Well here we go again but.... Someone close to the company, had been a dealer for many years, posted on SBO that they are apparently shuttered since 6/30/17. He is trying for more info, the website is still good but, if you call, everything goes to voice mail.
> 
> Didn't we run through all this a while back???? Who knows but this would be a bit of a blow to the customer base. Anyone wanna take up the slack?
> 
> Let the conjecture begin...... Anyone have any further info?


As of a few minutes ago, a senior marketing fellow from Marlow-Hunter set the record straight on the Hunter forum.

This whole thing is fake news,

Hunter is in business and working hard.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

We'll see. Like I said above, the Marlow direction isn't working.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

Usually where there is smoke there is fire - even if the plant is still up and running -- there seems to be rumors of it closing - generally there is a financial reason behind that - the talk on the street makes it even harder to make a go of it - considering sailboat economics - good reason to be concerned - it seems the higher end builders will be OK - ones that market to the upper middle class with more affordable boats - tough sector - I don't think you can market any new 30+ foot sailboa tnew to the middle class anymore - we can't afford them - even if they are Hunters - 
Many of the younger ones doing well have moved to RV's - less upkeep.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

cdy said:


> Usually where there is smoke there is fire - even if the plant is still up and running -- there seems to be rumors of it closing - generally there is a financial reason behind that - the talk on the street makes it even harder to make a go of it - considering sailboat economics - good reason to be concerned - it seems the higher end builders will be OK - ones that market to the upper middle class with more affordable boats - tough sector - I don't think you can market any new 30+ foot sailboa tnew to the middle class anymore - we can't afford them - even if they are Hunters -
> Many of the younger ones doing well have moved to RV's - less upkeep.


"Thank god I don't live in a trailer" J Buffett


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

You guys are making me feel guilty for buying old boats.

I've been seriously considering getting something new these days too. I'm tired of being the fix-it owner.


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

Here is the post from SBO that has been verified to be legit;

"WOW...... ever heard of FAKE news.... This is a good one!!!

I can assure Marlow-Hunter LLC is not closed. I'm the Director of Purchasing and have been employed for over 25 years. We have orders and we are building and shipping boats. Production has not stopped. Many people in the industry know me personally and know how to get in touch if they have concerns.

I'm sorry there has been an issue with the phone system. I was not aware of it until an owner called and asked about the posting. My phone has been working fine all day.

Have a good and safe weekend...... try to stay away from the FNN (FAKE NEWS NETWORK).

Brett Leary"


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## 4arch (Jul 7, 2009)

cdy said:


> Usually where there is smoke there is fire - even if the plant is still up and running -- there seems to be rumors of it closing - generally there is a financial reason behind that - the talk on the street makes it even harder to make a go of it


Completely agree. These Hunter death rumors seem to pop up once or twice a year. The fact that people are so quick to buy into them without confirmation to me speaks volumes about the health and perception of the company.



cdy said:


> Many of the younger ones doing well have moved to RV's - less upkeep.


My brother is big into RVing. He has a 35 footer with every creature comfort imaginable. Bought it brand new for under $30k. Upkeep costs are virtually non-existent. Campgrounds with amenities cost about the same as a transient slip in a nicer marina.

Younger buyers are also going to powerboats. Less intimidating to the inexperienced. Roomier for a given LOA. Quicker to get places. Not much need to worry about draft/depth.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

While I wish Hunter luck , have owned a couple and thought they were good values ( used ) I think the economics must be working pretty hard against them - but I would guess they have moved upmarket also and mostly sell boats 40' and above.
Maybe they make a lot for charter fleets - a sector I know nothing about.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Wouldn't Hunter biting the dust be like a wet dream to a lot of Internet posters?


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Well not sure even Hunter haters should be happy if they had issues. They have been around a long time, and any loss in a trim market is a bad one.

I went digging through their website because of this thread... It shocks me that both Catalina and Hunter have a hole in the 22-30 range... Yep, Catalina launched the 275 to fill the hole. Hunter had the 27 for years. Looking at the 31, seems like a lot of boat for the size. I'm not keen on the cosmetics, but for cruiser room, its pretty large. For the record I'm not real fond of the Cat in the same size.

I think the 27 foot size range is under represented these days. Beneteau has the 25(s)? then nothing until 30... Hunter 22 then 31. Cat 22-275-315.

I'm wondering how the 275 is selling. Trailerable, deck stepped, inboard, sporty-ish, with a real head and a small cabin?


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

4arch said:


> X....
> My brother is big into RVing. He has a 35 footer with every creature comfort imaginable. Bought it brand new for under $30k. Upkeep costs are virtually non-existent. Campgrounds with amenities cost about the same as a transient slip in a nicer marina.
> 
> Younger buyers are also going to powerboats. Less intimidating to the inexperienced. Roomier for a given LOA. Quicker to get places. Not much need to worry about draft/depth.


Much easier and quicker to get into, and no special knowledge needed.
Got license?....off you go.
Wife slides into it w/o life changes/hassles.
Fewer unknowns...
RVing is a bargain in the grand scheme of things.


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## 4arch (Jul 7, 2009)

SHNOOL said:


> It shocks me that both Catalina and Hunter have a hole in the 22-30 range...


It doesn't shock me. This size range really gets squeezed on both ends by the used market probably more than any other.

The Catalina 275 starts around $80k and can be optioned up to $100k+. People wanting a small boat find they can spend a mere fraction of that on a used boat in very good condition. People with $100k budgets find they can get A LOT more boat on the used market. This is also a price point where most buyers will be financing so it's easy for dealers to do the old "for a 5 year longer loan term or a hundred-something more per month, you could upgrade to the much more luxurious 31 footer" sales pitch.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

$80K for a 27 ft boat that goes 5knots - there is just not much of a market for that - plus slip rental - $300/month or more - unless the family income is $200K or above - does not fit in a budget - its not the cost of the boat that is the killer its the slip rental, insurance, upkeep. If you are selling new 40 footers - the ones who can afford them have a entirely different budget -


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

cdy said:


> ...it seems the higher end builders will be OK - ones that market to the upper middle class with more affordable boats - tough sector - I don't think you can market any new 30+ foot sailboat new to the middle class anymore - we can't afford them


I keep seeing this in forums but I know the folks at the local Catalina dealer pretty well and they're not having problems moving boats. With low interest rates sales are up.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

smackdaddy said:


> We'll see. Like I said above, the Marlow direction isn't working.


Smack, I'm not all that familiar with the new Hunters.

Just curious, why do you think the new designs aren't working?


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

Maybe its a regional thing - new sailboat sales seem to be dead in Florida - big Cats seem to be selling , higher end stuff - have not seen a new smaller sailboat 30-35 feet in years. Financing a boat long term - after what so many of us went through during the great recession - I would only finance a boat if I could pay cash for it, and just did it for tax advantages or maybe making a better return elsewhere - but if I had to finance a boat for more than 4 years because it was the only way to pay for it - too gun shy to try that.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JimMcGee said:


> Smack, I'm not all that familiar with the new Hunters.
> 
> Just curious, why do you think the new designs aren't working?


Lots of reasons, but very generally speaking the aesthetics and design elements are very far off if they want to have ANY prayer of appealing to a buying demographic of sub-70-year-olds. One issue is that they are injecting their motor yacht DNA into their sailboats - DNA that seems very outdated and out-of-place in the world of modern sailing yachts. And their boats are relatively expensive compared to other leading brands. I'll try to do a video summary of this soon if I get time because I think it's interesting - but I think this quick comparison tells the story if you're actually interested in a new monohull sailing yacht (which itself is starting to change in terms of the broader market)...

*Marlow-Hunter 47, $564K*



















Antiquated aesthetic that pulls from last century's motor-yachting vibe and an interior that feels like a floating old-folks home.

*Beneteau Oceanis 48, $375K*



















Sleek, modernist feel that pulls from today's racing boat aesthetic ("feels fast"). A bright, luxury-oriented interior that fits a younger consumer culture (think about leading interior design on upscale apartments and condos that this demographic is consuming). And it's FAR less expensive than the MH family station wagon above.

*Jeanneau SO44DS, $299K*




























Again, sleek, modern design that is in line with the high-end luxury culture that would be the real candidates for next-generation buyers.

So, Marlow-Hunter is stylistically going backward while inserting motor yacht sensibilities such as this hull/bow shape on their 40 (Boston Whaler or Mac 26 anyone?)...










...and even the 42 with this marketing gem...



> Beyond the evolutionary and striking beauty however, the SS designation is not given without basis, as it connotes the era of American Muscle Cars denoting "Super Sport" when lumbering and obese chariots had held sway previously.












..."American Muscle Cars" - are you kidding me? And their boats are getting much more expensive as it goes this direction. What's the value there? I don't see it.

And, IF the thinking is to appeal to the stinkpotter world who might want to move toward sailing - that's not going to happen at this price-point. Cats are leading the charge for this newer sailing demographic and will continue to do so because they offer SO much more than any of these boats for young cruisers who can afford new or near-new boats.

So, unless there is some secret sauce in these Marlow-Hunter boats that is not immediately clear, it's not going to work for them against these leading brands. No way. They lose out on almost all counts...except for maybe the elderly traditionalists who love motoring.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I think it silly to think that Marlow-Hunter doesn't have a marketing plan and making boats to match it. Just because someone with a 30 year old Hunter, or me with a 16 year old one, doesn't like the plan doesn't matter.

Far as new a having 22-30 foot boat the reason is easy, there's not enough money it doing it.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

JimMcGee said:


> I keep seeing this in forums but I know the folks at the local Catalina dealer pretty well and they're not having problems moving boats. With low interest rates sales are up.


I was at the boat show last fall, and there was no comparison between the Catalina and the H/M. The H/M's are just plain ugly, and horribly built. Catalinas really shine next to them, and also next to the current crop of Beneteaus.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

I think the new designs are very nice. This brings me back to the "clorox bottle" comparisons of years back.

Ahhh the circle of life...'real men' banned the Charger Daytona from NASCAR...damned ugly newfangled thingamabobs that grandma can drive to get groceries and Jr can take pink slips on Sat night...give me a flat head Ford any day. Seatbelts? I wanna be thrown clear from my T bucket!

Of course there are some things that could be done differently but I'd be quite happy with a Jeanneau SO in the upper 30 ft range, I just can't deplete my life savings to pay cash, nor am I willing to make the payments.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

It's a shame they haven't made them prettier. The 31 has some great features for it's size.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Lazerbrains said:


> I was at the boat show last fall, and there was no comparison between the Catalina and the H/M. The H/M's are just plain ugly, and horribly built. Catalinas really shine next to them, and also next to the current crop of Beneteaus.


The one thing I'll give M-H over Catalina is that M-H is actually "innovating". Yes, it's very poorly thought out and executed - but they are at least setting a clear direction and building to it.

Catalina is essentially stuck in 1990 with their larger boat line-up. I do like the look of their boats and have always appreciated their build/sailing quality, but they are getting left WAY behind on the innovation front. Of course, if M-H keeps this current direction, Catalina may end up the only North American brand left anyway.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

cdy said:


> Maybe its a regional thing - new sailboat sales seem to be dead in Florida - big Cats seem to be selling , higher end stuff - have not seen a new smaller sailboat 30-35 feet in years. Financing a boat long term - after what so many of us went through during the great recession - I would only finance a boat if I could pay cash for it, and just did it for tax advantages or maybe making a better return elsewhere - but if I had to finance a boat for more than 4 years because it was the only way to pay for it - too gun shy to try that.


Everybody's situation is different.

A couple near us purchased a new Catalina 315 last year. It's a beautiful boat and they're thrilled with it.

For me, at this stage in my life I want to put my money where it will get a good return on investment for our retirement. So a new sailboat is pretty far down my list of priorities. If I was 20 years younger and not thinking about retirement I might look at things differently...


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

smackdaddy said:


> The one thing I'll give M-H over Catalina is that M-H is actually "innovating". Yes, it's very poorly thought out and executed - but they are at least setting a clear direction and building to it.
> 
> Catalina is essentially stuck in 1990 with their larger boat line-up. I do like the look of their boats and have always appreciated their build/sailing quality, but they are getting left WAY behind on the innovation front. Of course, if M-H keeps this current direction, Catalina may end up the only North American brand left anyway.


I have to disagree on this. I was a harsh critic of Catalina stagnancy until they began revamping their models roughly 9-10 years ago. In the interim, they have produced boats with more up to date hull forms and rigs, and modernized their production methods. While Catalina's aesthetic is more conservatively North American than the other mass market producers, these are certainly much more modern designs than Catalina had been doing. They have also adopted more modern materials and engineering practices as well.

My sense with M-H is that they have taken on 'Euro-styling' as a styling effort rather than designing truly modern boats and building them in an innovative manner. I think that Warren Luhrs was an innovative guy, and at one time, the Hunter factory had some wold class folks associated with it, But this current line just lacks the kind of common sense and grasp of the basics that Warren Luhrs and company historically delivered. I don't know whether M-H can get the Hunter Mojo back, but it would be nice if they could.

The issue to me, is that the European mass market builders, generally rely upon world class yacht designers to design their boats. These designers have access to the latest thinking in hull, keel, and rig design. They are working with the most current structural design concepts as well. The quality of the structural build quality of these boats has consistently gotten better over time. Because of the sheer numbers, they have enormous buying power relative to either Hunter or Catalina. If there is a short-coming to the European boats it is about their choice of aesthetics which frankly is not universally appealing, at least over here in the States.

At this point I think its a very steep hill for M-H to climb.

Jeff


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

smackdaddy said:


> The one thing I'll give M-H over Catalina is that M-H is actually "innovating". Yes, it's very poorly thought out and executed - but they are at least setting a clear direction and building to it.
> 
> Catalina is essentially stuck in 1990 with their larger boat line-up. I do like the look of their boats and have always appreciated their build/sailing quality, but they are getting left WAY behind on the innovation front. Of course, if M-H keeps this current direction, Catalina may end up the only North American brand left anyway.


Aesthetics are a very personal thing. I love the exterior styling on the French boats. But when I look at the Beneteau and Jenneau interiors I don't think "fast and modern" I think IKEA and painful. By painful I mean lots of sharp edges and not a lot of hand holds. And they don't look great for lounging around or curling up with a book for three or four hours at a time. Though I have to say my wife would kill for the aft cabin in that Jenneau.

The Marlowe Hunter interior looks like something from Mainship or Back Cove and does seem out of place on a sailboat. But then there are a LOT more powerboaters than sailors. Maybe their market research tells them they can tease buyers out of the power boat market. Their pockets are certainly deep enough for the experiment

As for Catalina take a look at the 425 to get an idea of where they're headed. It's more evolutionary than revolutionary, but that boat has a LOT of features that are great ideas for day to day life on board. The exterior styling is more European than previous models and it's well put together. The interior is designed to be more comfortable-cozy than stylish (my personal preference).

At the end of the day it's whatever blows your skirt up. We're probably not the target market for these boats anyway.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Jeff_H said:


> I have to disagree on this. I was a harsh critic of Catalina stagnancy until they began revamping their models roughly 9-10 years ago. In the interim, they have produced boats with more up to date hull forms and rigs, and modernized their production methods. While Catalina's aesthetic is more conservatively North American than the other mass market producers, these are certainly much more modern designs than Catalina had been doing. They have also adopted more modern materials and engineering practices as well...
> 
> The issue to me, is that the European mass market builders, generally rely upon world class yacht designers to design their boats. These designers have access to the latest thinking in hull, keel, and rig design. They are working with the most current structural design concepts as well. The quality of the structural build quality of these boats has consistently gotten better over time. Because of the sheer numbers, they have enormous buying power relative to either Hunter or Catalina. If there is a short-coming to the European boats it is about their choice of aesthetics which frankly is not universally appealing, at least over here in the States.
> 
> ...


Jeff, I think customer focus has been a key element in Catalina's success. They listen closely to customers when designing new models and their customer support is just amazing -- there are numerous threads about it here -- not to mention they make a good solid boat designed for how their customers really sail.

It's possible for Marlowe Hunter to carve out a similar niche by offering something a little different. As you said it's very hard for them to compete if they try to be just another Euro design. Whether a downeast-powerboat aesthetic is the right answer only time will tell.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I don't mean to bash Catalina - I'm just saying they haven't done anything truly exciting for a very, very long time. Yes, I might have been pushing it putting the timeline into the '90s, but let's take a look at the 42 model from 14 years ago...










...and today's 425 as you mention...










Yes, there are changes. A much more exaggerated sheer like with the Hunter boats above - and a much more plumb bow like the European boats (though not quite) - and the forward cabin top is much more severe than before as well. But this is 14 years!

Note: if you're a traditionalist who doesn't like "sharp, IKEA" furniture, you definitely won't like the new Euro-style in-hull portlights of the new 425.

As for the interiors, this from 14 years ago...










...and this today...










Note: the traditionalists will also likely be upset that they got rid of the handrail on the ceiling for expanded "glass" overhead.

You'll also notice the starboard seating config of the 425 looks a lot like the C36 from the '90s...










Irrespective of aesthetics or features, however, you certainly can't say that Catalinas don't hold their value well. I've always been impressed by that.

So, if this 425 really is the new direction, it appears that both Catalina and M-H are tying into this weird exaggeration of shape and detail (back to the "Muscle Car" thing?) to make their statement. If this is the new American aesthetic, I don't see it resonating with the next generation of sailboat buyer. The tastes at that end of the scale are too sophisticated for that. Again, most buyers at that level want affordable luxury - or a cat.

That leaves price being the determining factor. If price of the American boats were going down to entice that powerboater market - okay, I suppose. But at $263K for this 42' boat (and the high tag of the M-H boats above), the Euro brands seem to be killing the American brands there too.

So, again, Catalina may be evolving, but I don't see them innovating in ways that separate them in positive ways from the pack.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I'd take a 425 in a heartbeat.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

For less money than a 425 I'd buy a lightly used, well equipped Catalina 470 or a Bene 473.

Actually for $300K (which I guess the 425 will be when all i said and done) I'd buy an Amel 53 and be done ;-)


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

smackdaddy said:


> Note: the traditionalists will also likely be upset that they got rid of the handrail on the ceiling for expanded "glass" overhead.
> 
> You'll also notice the starboard seating config of the 425 looks a lot like the C36 from the '90s...


Ever been on a C36 - it's got to be one of the best interior layouts ever designed for a 36 boat. A good interior layout remains that, regardless of the times; no need to change it for change sake.

As for the ceiling handrail - looks like the hatch coves provide a good handhold, and there are good holds along the cabin. The boat I saw at the show that suprisingly had poor/no handholds was the Island Packet (55?).

I agree with Jeff and I really like the direction Catalina is taking their boats, especially the 445. They actually seem to be concentrating more on sailing qualities than interior room these days. The quality is apparent too, especially next to the new HM's with lifelines colliding with shrouds , exposed wiring from mast to deck, and flimsy boarding ramp - and Benne's, whose cheap Ikea interiors I would be embarrassed to own.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Lazerbrains said:


> Ever been on a C36...


Yes. That's how I recognized the layout.

As for Catalina reducing beam, I'm not sure I follow. The 425 is still 13'8" like the 42/42MK2 was, and that's _7" more_ than the Jeanneau SO419 (13'1"), and only 1" less than the Beneteau 411 (13'9"). The 425 actually just carried the beam farther aft like the Euro boats from what I see.


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

Personally, I don't like any of the new designs by pretty much all of the manufacturers. Painting with a broad brush here, but I detest things like wide open saloons that you can't cross safely in a seaway because there aren't enough handholds. High "ceilings" below that no avg. sized woman could reach a handhold, Hull shapes that have huge amounts of windage but require a bow and maybe a stern thruster to easily dock to say nothing of the fact that it will POUND you to death in chop. And since we're beating up on Hunter I never understood the point of a B/R rig that does away with the backstay... and then puts a furling main on that has no roach. Oh yeah, because nobody's really interested in SAILING, they just want the amenities.
Don't even get me started on access to systems, engine, etc.
But then my first criteria when I bought my boat (larger than 20') was that it had to SAIL well. And it does. Just put over 2000 miles on it in 5 weeks. Probably over 8500 miles since May of '12


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> My sense with M-H is that they have taken on 'Euro-styling' as a styling effort rather than designing truly modern boats and building them in an innovative manner.
> 
> The issue to me, is that the European mass market builders, generally rely upon world class yacht designers to design their boats. These designers have access to the latest thinking in hull, keel, and rig design. They are working with the most current structural design concepts as well. The quality of the structural build quality of these boats has consistently gotten better over time.
> 
> Jeff


Jeff, all the other well-worn arguments aside...this is the most interesting aspect of this debate to me. I don't agree that M-H has taken on "Euro-Styling" - in fact *even they* discount this with their "American Muscle Car" marketing angle. There's something else afoot.

So, what IS this new "American" style that M-H and Catalina seem to be pushing. I certainly don't see it as Eurocentric at all. Just compare the exterior/interior aesthetics of the boats in my posts above.

These American brands are pushing something else - and I'm very intrigued by it. You can see it with the C425 and with the M-H 47 (and their other new boats like the 40). As I said, M-H is definitely injecting a lot more of the powerboat DNA into their sailing yachts - but Catalina is doing some of the same more "extreme" shaping and featuring on its boats as well...and that featuring definitely is NOT reminiscent of leading Euro designers like JuanK - or even top American houses like Farr.

To me it comes back to M-H's strange marketing angle about "American Muscle Cars". I can understand this language coming from M-H due to its heritage...but if that's what we're seeing here, what does that really mean in terms of sailing yachts...and why is Catalina picking up on some of the same aesthetic trends...trends that are decidedly NON-Euro? And how does this direction _*really*_ improve *sailing performance* (which JuanK/Farr are obviously all about).

Is this muscle car direction _really_ what the American new sailing yacht market wants? I mean I loved the fins on the old Caddies - but is that where we're going here? Only time will tell I guess. But, back to your point above...when it comes to market capitalization as related to yacht design, you have to remember one thing...

Ethan Allen had annual sales of $794M last year.
IKEA had annual sales of $37.6B last year.

Where is the smart money? Or are M-H and Catalina just focusing on the aging-out Ethan Allen market? If so, that certainly doesn't seem to be a productive hand to bet the farm on.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Sorry, but the ugly Marlow Hunters look nothing like the Catalinas.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

smackdaddy said:


> I don't mean to bash Catalina - I'm just saying they haven't done anything truly exciting for a very, very long time. Yes, I might have been pushing it putting the timeline into the '90s, but let's take a look at the 42 model from 14 years ago...
> 
> Yes, there are changes. A much more exaggerated sheer like with the Hunter boats above - and a much more plumb bow like the European boats (though not quite) - and the forward cabin top is much more severe than before as well. But this is 14 years!


I didn't take what you said as Catalina bashing, your tastes just run to a different style. And there is definitely a "Catalina look" and the new boats share that common DNA. I'd disagree with some of your conclusions though.

As for not doing anything exciting, well Gerry Douglas has always talked about the evolutionary nature of their designs and the fact that their designs are long lived. His opinion is that since the designs don't change every other year it helps older boats hold their value. And if old boats hold their value that helps new boat sales since a VERY large percentage of Catalina buyers are Catalina owners.

They've been very open about that being part of their long term marketing strategy. And it seems to have worked. They've weathered the economic downturns that have sunk a lot of their competitors.



smackdaddy said:


> Note: if you're a traditionalist who doesn't like "sharp, IKEA" furniture, you definitely won't like the new Euro-style in-hull portlights of the new 425.


I don't think of myself as a traditionalist. To me that's the guy sailing a restored Bermuda 40. I just want an interior that's cozy for living aboard a couple of days at a time.

It's the same with our house, it's more "Coastal Living" then modern. It's all personal taste.



smackdaddy said:


> You'll also notice the starboard seating config of the 425 looks a lot like the C36 from the '90s...


Some ideas just work. It's been a popular feature in Catalinas for years. As long as owners keep telling Catalina they like it, you'll see it new boats.

That's not a bad thing. I don't buy into change for change sake. BTW, I really like the C36 interior, it's a slightly scaled up version of our interior and it works well.



smackdaddy said:


> Irrespective of aesthetics or features, however, you certainly can't say that Catalinas don't hold their value well. I've always been impressed by that.
> 
> That leaves price being the determining factor. If price of the American boats were going down to entice that powerboater market - okay, I suppose. But at $263K for this 42' boat (and the high tag of the M-H boats above), the Euro brands seem to be killing the American brands there too.


I think their long term design strategy and attention to customer service play a big part in Catalinas holding their value. I occasionally stop by the Catalina after party at Annapolis. We're only on our second Catalina; and you meet a lot of folks who are on their fourth or fifth Catalina. It's not unusual.

For those people price is a factor, but seldom the determining factor. Catalina listens closely to their owners so the boats they build tend to hit the sweet spot for their market. Also there have been several threads from people buying new boats. The French boats seem less expensive, but when you option out new boats of a similar size the prices end up being pretty close.

Can Marlowe Hunter carve out a similar sweet spot with a trawler/downeast aesthetic?

I hope they can. The more healthy American builders the better.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Like some others here, I hate the IKEA aesthetic. After walking on dozens of Euro boats, and chartering a few, my opinion has not changed.

Every time I pull up my anchor, I am glad that I do not have a plumb bow for it to knock into. I know that a plumb bow lengthens the waterline for greater theoretical hull speed, but the standard 1.34x√LWL applies for a generic hull form, and in choppy seas the plumb bow might be less effective at bouncing off the chop, resulting in a lower effective hull speed that negates the greater LWL. I'm sure someone has studied this effect, but never seen any reports on it.

I know people rave over the Catalina 36, and I chartered a really nice one. When I went to buy, I wanted a boat with a fixed dinette table, so went with the 34 instead. Also, many marinas in my area charge by the length of the slip (30', 35', 40',....), not the exact length of the boat. My 34' boat is less expensive to dock than a 36' boat that would need a 40' slip. No offense meant to C36 owners - it's a great boat.

I'm a second-time Catalina owner, so I'm biased and brand loyal. But I didn't start out that way, so my bias was developed over many years of attending boat shows and chartering different brands. I know what I like, and Catalina hits the right place for price, comfort, quality, and performance for the way I sail.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

> I don't mean to bash Catalina - I'm just saying they haven't done anything truly exciting for a very, very long time.


I don't mean to bash Hunter, but do you mean "truly exciting" things like those fiberglass arches with the traveler up top and the boom out of reach ? Unstayed masts the size and weight of a telephone pole ? No backstays but some kind of little jumper struts on the mast ? And how do you tune that rig, do you adjust the turnbuckles up high from a bosun's chair first or last ? These are some of the thoughts of a Catalina sailor while looking at Hunters.
Some peoples exciting is other peoples odd.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

LOL. Don't forget the swept back spreaders. Sail downwind and poke a hole in your main at the same time. 
Definitely an "innovation" I could do without.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Lazerbrains said:


> LOL. Don't forget the swept back spreaders. Sail downwind and poke a hole in your main at the same time.
> Definitely an "innovation" I could do without.


...except that every Bene and Jenne that I've chartered also has swept back spreaders. So the "competitive innovators" are doing it too. Their sweep angle is less, and they do have a backstay. But it still affects downwind sail trim.

Note that one benefit of swept back spreaders is that eliminating the forward lowers does make for easy tacking if you have a large genoa -- one less thing for it to get hung up on. Especially nice if you are a river sailor who tacks frequently.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Yes, and as I posted above, this is the new 2017 Beneteau...










There's no question Hunter has been a true innovator for decades - innovation that other brands obviously emulate, even today. So I won't get into re-litigating all the same old crap you typically see on Hunter threads in forums. That debate's already settled.

My point in this particular thread is that Marlow-Hunter is indeed "innovating" again. I'm just saying it's a direction that might finally be jumping the shark. We'll see. Maybe Hanse will come out with an "American Muscle Car" line and prove me wrong.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

smackdaddy said:


> Yes, and as I posted above, this is the new 2017 Beneteau...
> 
> There's no question Hunter has been a true innovator for decades -


LOL - I almost spit out my coffee at that one.

"No question".... ok, whatever you say....

:laugh


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Lazerbrains said:


> LOL. Don't forget the swept back spreaders. Sail downwind and poke a hole in your main at the same time.
> Definitely an "innovation" I could do without.


Funny, pretty much all catamarans are rigged this way and I have not seen any poking holes in their mains. I know we never have. I've also never heard of anyone with these mono rigs who have poked holes in their mains.

Perhaps you can back up your statement with examples?

Mark


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

colemj said:


> Funny, pretty much all catamarans are rigged this way and I have not seen any poking holes in their mains. I know we never have. I've also never heard of anyone with these mono rigs who have poked holes in their mains.
> 
> Mark


I dunno - maybe you don't sail deeper than 150? Maybe you pad your spreaders or have big wear patches on your main?

There really is no practical way to keep your main off your swept back spreaders downwind that I am aware of - feel free to enlighten me how you do it.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Don't sail Dead down wind. most of the new designs are designed to sail above 150 degrees which gives best VMG . I have seen may mainsails worn through from rubbing on straight spreaders. good sailors don't sail with the sail rubbing on the rig no matter what rig you have. Vang hard on and main sheet will keep it off the spreaders. when the wind is light we reach down wind and with the wind up we can sail lower but the main is flat and just off the spreaders. newer designs sail faster and make better use of the higher apparent wind speeds


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Lazerbrains said:


> feel free to enlighten me how you do it.


Sure, no problem. Right after you back up your assertion with examples, as I asked first. Even a single example. There are a heck of a lot of these rigs out there not poking holes in their main and sailing fine downwind.

These rigs might even out number straight spreader rigs now.

It's OK not to like these rigs, but it isn't OK to make things up, and state them as fact, to validate your preference.

Mark


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

To be frank, I also have pretty aggressively swept back spreaders on my current boat. The mainsail definitely touches the spreaders more than parallel spreaders. I do have stickiback chafe patches. I double up on the ones on the tips, and I have small patches where the full length battens cross the shrouds. I sail my boat a lot and in some moderately heavy air (up to the high 20 knot range) and the patches do seem to last about 5-6 years or so before I need to put another set on.

Here is a picture of my boat on a deep reach. (The apparent wind is pretty far forward, but the true wind is probably at around 165 degrees) 







[/URL][/IMG]

You can see the chafe patches at my spreaders. Here is a picture of 'Old Blue' a Pearson 30 taken at almost the same time and course. The Pearson has athwartships spreaders and you can see the mainsail is also touching his spreaders, just not as much.








[/URL][/IMG][/URL]

The other thing that you can see in these pictures (at least when you look at them blown up) is that the lower section of my mainsail near the spreaders is touching my shrouds, and they are also up against the aft lowers on the Old Blue. Similarly the heads of both sails are up against the upper shrouds.

Jeff


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Holy crap...I just read through the copy on the M-H 42SS. This is freakin' hilarious!

"Monkey fur"?

"..Stark ode to whimsical and soon obsolete 'statement' to be lost in the faddish backscatter of yesterday's fad"?

Wow. I do admire their SmackTalk - even though it sounds like the copywriter was hammered!



> Excitement in Fluid Dynamics
> 
> The all new 42SS from Marlow-Hunter advances the acclaimed styling and features introduced by the 40 in 2013, the 37 in 2014 and the 31 in 2015 with its clean profile, enhanced deck access and deck operations centers.
> 
> ...


Classic. I think we can safely conclude that Marlow-Hunter is NOT okay.


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## oysterman23 (Jul 22, 2011)

obviously their senior editor died of heart failure prior to finding his red spray can....!!!!!!!!!!! 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I see the thread is going down the same old


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

colemj said:


> Sure, no problem. Right after you back up your assertion with examples, as I asked first. Even a single example. There are a heck of a lot of these rigs out there not poking holes in their main and sailing fine downwind.
> 
> These rigs might even out number straight spreader rigs now.
> 
> ...


You seem to take this *way* too personally.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Lazerbrains said:


> You seem to take this *way* too personally.


that seems reasonable when responding to people who just make stuff up


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

smackdaddy said:


> Holy crap...I just read through the copy on the M-H 42SS. This is freakin' hilarious!
> 
> "Monkey fur"?
> 
> ...


Damn I thought you were making that up. Then I looked at their Web site.

I think we've identified their ad agency


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## Skyeterrier (Feb 11, 2016)

I just helped my friend deliver his brand new M-H 32 footer. I'm kind of "eh" on the aesthetics.

One thing I noticed is that the freeboard seems way higher than other boats of this size. Felt like I needed to be a rock climber to get on board.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Skyeterrier said:


> I just helped my friend deliver his brand new M-H 32 footer. I'm kind of "eh" on the aesthetics.
> 
> One thing I noticed is that the freeboard seems way higher than other boats of this size. Felt like I needed to be a rock climber to get on board.


Skye - I'm curious, what drew your friend to M-H? Is this his first boat? And how did he settle on this boat?

Also, this boat doesn't have the SeaDek no-skid does it? I can't believe they are using that stuff.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Skyeterrier said:


> I just helped my friend deliver his brand new M-H 32 footer. I'm kind of "eh" on the aesthetics.
> 
> One thing I noticed is that the freeboard seems way higher than other boats of this size. Felt like I needed to be a rock climber to get on board.


Which 32 footer? they make the new 31 foot and the very ugly 33, two very different boats


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Skyeterrier said:


> One thing I noticed is that the freeboard seems way higher than other boats of this size. Felt like I needed to be a rock climber to get on board.





smackdaddy said:


> Also, this boat doesn't have the SeaDek no-skid does it? I can't believe they are using that stuff.


Power boat influence...


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> Holy crap...I just read through the copy on the M-H 42SS. This is freakin' hilarious!
> 
> "Monkey fur"?
> 
> "..Stark ode to whimsical and soon obsolete 'statement' to be lost in the faddish backscatter of yesterday's fad"?


What the fresh hell?!?!

Sounds like they got a Hunter S wannabe that hates his job as a copywriter.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

OK, off topic, but I have to ask... why does it look to me that on the 31 (and perhaps other models) that you cannot possibly get enough downward pull on the mainsheet (or vang) to flatten, and close the leach on the mainsail on these boats... It could just be the plethora of brochure pictures skewing my thought process, all of the boat off-wind (and not heeling)...


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

SHNOOL said:


> OK, off topic, but I have to ask... why does it look to me that on the 31 (and perhaps other models) that you cannot possibly get enough downward pull on the mainsheet (or vang) to flatten, and close the leach on the mainsail on these boats... It could just be the plethora of brochure pictures skewing my thought process, all of the boat off-wind (and not heeling)...


Because with that arch/traveler arrangement the boom is 6" above the arch - not much room to tighten it. I am not a fan of that design, for the reason you state, as well as becaue the gooseneck (and foot) of the main is so high in the air. Puts the center of effort up high, and just plain looks weird. It is obvious that this design choice is influenced by "comfort in the cockpit" over "sailing ability".


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

The 31 looks like it has a rigid vang. This will control the twist and leach tension. The sail will be cut so that pulling it down to a 6" clearance will result in a hooked leach - it will normally be greater than that when raised and set properly. Our catamaran is a similar setup and it works great. The traveller has little effect on twist and leach tension once the sail is much past centerline - but the vang takes over from there.

However, the website shows a rig with an adjustable vang and an in mast furler. This is just nuts, and this combination will be a tremendous problem.

Mark


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

for 18 years owners of Hunter B&R rigs have been able to do it, and of course the ocean racers with B&R can do it

it's only a problem if you sail on the internet!


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Sailed a very cruiser-esqe cat with a B&R rig... you are spot on, and I can verify that... It also was a rigid vang setup, it took some doing for us to get a handle on what was right for hook/twist. We were doing our best to compete upwind with a mono (and loosing considerably)... We were easily 10 degrees off them upwind, and a knot or 2 slower.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Don't all B&R rigs have rigid vangs? It seems like the benefits of losing the backstay (space for a big roach in the mainsail) would be lost if you had a topping lift.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Our Hunter 40 was raced for quite a while so it has an interesting/weird setup. We have a stock rigid vang, an "active" vang (line and blocks) that was rigged afterward, and a topping lift. The topping lift is great for keeping the boom off the bimini when needed - but we always ease it when sailing and let the rigid vang do its thing. And, if we are at all motivated, we can use the active vang to shape the sail a bit downwind.

We also have a split backstay (which is even adjustable!) - which is not always the case with the BR rig. So - it seems our particular Hunter has EVERYTHING you could possibly imagine on a rig (even stuff that makes little sense). But I also think we probably have the most stable rig on the ocean.

We don't race right now - so we don't really care about microcontrol over our main shape. But we also know our boat rates a 96. So these boats with BR rigs can obviously spank most cruising boats out there that have "proper" spreaders, oh and our sails are fine, no holes - so it's not at all the problem many try to make it out to be. They just don't understand it.

The ONLY thing I don't like about the BR rig is the cost of re-rigging. It's a bit insane.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

My bad, there isn't any problem with a in-mast furler and adjustable vang. I was thinking boom-furling when I wrote that.

In-mast furling pretty much negates all the advantages of a B&R rig, though.

Mark


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I doubt anyone gets a main sail furler without already understanding it comes with a performance loss. I wish I had a furling main!!!!


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

TakeFive said:


> Don't all B&R rigs have rigid vangs? It seems like the benefits of losing the backstay (space for a big roach in the mainsail) would be lost if you had a topping lift.


Not if you bring the topping lift forward to the mast. It is what I do with mine and have done on other boats I have raced on that had topping lifts.


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