# Do roller-furling cruisers need a storm jib?



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Saw this mentioned on another thread and thought it worth asking about. And yes I see how crappy the shape is on a partially furled headsail, so maybe I know the answer already. My second question (below) stays relevant though....

1) We have a roller furled headsail (130%). One day I'd like to sail our boat to Bermuda. Is a storm jib necessary?

2) If so, how do you deploy it? Unless everyone is using the ATN storm jib that fastens over the rolled-up jib, I suppose everyone could be sliding their jib down the foil and putting it below. Is that the case? That seems like a challenge in any significant wind and seas.

Regards,
Brad


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## DulceSuerna (May 19, 2010)

Good question I've wondered this myself, The experienced sailors that I have asked say you can use your furled headsail but it does put tremendous strain on your furling lines, and tackle etc. Just be sure its in good shape. We have a spare hank on style storm jib just as an emergency. Hope we never need half the stuff we "have in case" of an emergency.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Its a requirement on any of the races or cruising rally

We have only luff tape sails down to a #4(about 85%) and the storm jib is MUCH better 

A separate track for storm trysail in place of a deep reef main is also much better as a strong enough reef point tends to make a poor race sail and you really beat the crap out of the main


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## f182 (Jul 18, 2010)

We have a storm jib on Gallivant on our crossing of the Australian Bight last month, most of the crossing was under a Storm Jib and 3rd reef in the main (25 -35knts). 
This combination allowed us to quickly change gears when the wind came up 45knt. 
We also hove-to under storm jib.







Gallivant is easily driven and we still maintain a good speed averaging 5.8knt for the 800Nm travelled, straight line 650Nm.
Gallivants furler is a Number 3 Blade with batterns and furls well but in adverse conditions a storm jib is the way to go.







Sail shape is the important thing a furling jib just has not got the shape, offshore a storm jib or trisail is a must in my book.

That my 2 cents worth.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

As a luxury I've yet to use, we have a releasable inner forestay. For an ocean passage, I would use that for a storm jib. We don't bother for coastal cruising, as tacking the genoa around it is a real pain. That virtually requires that the genoa be furled in most of the way before the tack. A tack or jibe is much less frequent on an ocean passage, sometimes days apart.

For one, in conditions where reefing is as necessary as those that call for a storm jib, I would not want my butt riding on the bet that the furling line or furler itself doesnt' let go.


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

I just got to the BVI's from Virginia. Our furling line DID let go, with wind at 30-35 knots at 3 in the morning (of course). Was sort of exciting for a while. Sure did wish I had used the ATN gale sail that night - will do it much sooner next time.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

sck5 said:


> .. Our furling line DID let go, with wind at 30-35 knots at 3 in the morning (of course). Was sort of exciting for a while. ...


I had in my boat a 150% genoa and a storm bag that I never used. I could go with 35/40K winds with a little bit of genoa and the main on a really small 3rd reef. the boat could not get closer than 55º of the wind and the sail shape was really bad, but what scared me most was the huge tension on the furling line. With a big genoa I was afraid of losing the mast if the line snapped.

Next boat I will have a releasable inner forestay and a smaller jib with an option to mount a storm sail. If you do only coastal sailing you probably don't need it, but for any passage that takes more than 24h, that's a really safety item.

Regards

Paulo


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

sck5 said:


> I just got to the BVI's from Virginia. Our furling line DID let go, with wind at 30-35 knots at 3 in the morning (of course). Was sort of exciting for a while. Sure did wish I had used the ATN gale sail that night - will do it much sooner next time.


Sck5, Where you part of the Carib1500 Rally? Could you share some of your experience?

I missed an opportunity to crew on a boat doing the rally, but still have been watching the fleet closely (I'm still watching Nancy Ellen).

I was thinking for my boat, I would have wanted a heavy Yankee Cut 100-110 on the furler, with my 135 and a Gale Sail in the locker.

I also think if I am ever able to do that trip, I'd also rig the boat for a storm trysail.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Another issue with using a partially furled genoa, other than poor shape and stress on the furling gear, is that the sail cloth may not be heavy enough for the task. Storm jibs and the ATN Gale Sail are made of heavier cloth and stitching to withstand high winds.

If I was going offshore I'd be sure to have at least a Gale Sail (or equivolent) and preferrably a removable inner forestay or a cutter rig that could take a hank on storm jib.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

I'm all for the decision of having a storm jib for offshore passages, but it is important to note that there are headsails marketed as roller furling and others as roller reefing. Take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A GaleSail is a good option if you don't want to go through the work that installing a proper inner forestay or solent stay for a storm jib and don't want to have to remove the genoa from the roller furling unit.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

A gale sail would be good. I actually had one but it was too small and didn't fit over the furled headsail. Ought to get another (bigger) on I suppose.

I was thinking that in a pinch I could use my anchor/riding sail. It is made with very heavy material. It would be very flat, but would allow me to pull the main in and sail upwind (I think) without losing rudder authority.

I figure I could tie it to several places up front, either the cleat on top of the windlass, the same attachment point as the roller furler, or the top of the anchor roller. The windlass is farthest back so that would be my first priority.

Any thoughts on this?

Regards,
Brad


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Brad--

Unless your riding sail has a wire luff, I don't think you should use it as a storm jib. It would be very difficult to tension it properly and get it to sheet in as flat as you'd want.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

A Gale Sail is one of those ideas that look good on paper but is truly grim in real life. Until you (wet) have dragged the Gale Sail (wet) forward and hooked the Gale Sail (wet) over the furled foresail (wet) and tried to communicate with the person (wet) at the mast hauling on the spare (you do have a spare?) jib halyard to pull the Gail Sail luff (wet) over the furled jib (did I mention wet?) you will have no idea how bad an idea it really is.

I've been there and done that, and had to wash the t-shirt twice to get all the salt out. *grin*

We all have to make our own choices. Here are mine:

When heading offshore I pull my light #2 (135) off the furler and replace it with a heavy #3 (100). I give up a little speed in light air in exchange for more flexibility as winds build. I also have a hank-on staysail that runs on a removable inner forestay. Offshore I hank on the bagged staysail and run the sheets to the cockpit. On my boat, I can carry the 100 jib through three reefs in the main. Beyond that (35 knots and rising) I'll roll in the 100 to about 80 before rolling it all the way in and switching to the staysail -- with everything rigged I only have to pull the bag (separately lashed to the deck) and trip the sail holddown to raise the staysail. It's a one person job, and no humping sail over the decks in poor conditions.

Not everyone has or wants a removable inner forestay. In that circumstance I personally would rather drop the furling sail off the foil and tie it down to replace it with a storm jib. Generally that would take two or three people with an autopilot or three to four without an a/p. I'd put money on being able to do it faster and more safely than a Gail Sail.

You pays your money and you makes your choice. *grin*


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

SVAuspicious said:


> A Gale Sail is one of those ideas that look good on paper but is truly grim in real life. Until you (wet) have dragged the Gale Sail (wet) forward and hooked the Gale Sail (wet) over the furled foresail (wet) and tried to communicate with the person (wet) at the mast hauling on the spare (you do have a spare?) jib halyard to pull the Gail Sail luff (wet) over the furled jib (did I mention wet?) you will have no idea how bad an idea it really is.
> 
> ...*


I did not know what the "Gale sail" was before looking at the web. In Europe we use the Storm-Bag and after looking at both videos, it's clear that the Storm-Bag is a lot easier to deploy. Almost all is made from the cockpit.

I had one and even if I never need it I have tried (for practice) to deploy the sail (alone) with winds over 30K. No problem at all, except getting wet form the water in the bow, but I only needed to be there for about 1 minute. The rest is made from the cockpit.

You guys should take a look at it. It seems a better system to me.

YouTube - Storm Bag

YouTube - ATN Gale Sail - Storm Jib

Regards

Paulo


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

SVAuspicious said:


> A Gale Sail is one of those ideas that look good on paper but is truly grim in real life. Until you (wet) have dragged the Gale Sail (wet) forward and hooked the Gale Sail (wet) over the furled foresail (wet) and tried to communicate with the person (wet) at the mast hauling on the spare (you do have a spare?) jib halyard to pull the Gail Sail luff (wet) over the furled jib (did I mention wet?) you will have no idea how bad an idea it really is.
> 
> I've been there and done that, and had to wash the t-shirt twice to get all the salt out. *grin*
> 
> ...


I have always been suspicious of the gale sail. I admit I have no personal knowledge of it. It just seemed to be etremely difficult to raise over another sail. I will tupe it again. The cutter rig is a great rig for cruising........*i2f*


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

I posted something like this a long while ago so apologies for the repeat.

I have a storm jib folded in a bag and ready to spill. The bag has a velcro opening and is lashed to the rail at the bow. If it is needed, the genny is furled and the storm jib halyard is used. The sail , in its bag is ready with its halyard and oversized sheets and a downhaul. It has an inner braid inside its luff, instead of a wire luff.

Its foot is just behind the genoa so is set quite well forward.


This works by far and is much safer than that gale sail idea. What I dont like about what I saw in the video is that is disables the use of the genny, requires someone to set halyards and sheets from scratch in lumpy conditions and is a bit of a gimmick. It could be a problem to remove.

I have had my storm jib out in a breeze much stronger than the gale sail youtube guys, but not used as of yet in necessity.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

SVAuspicious said:


> A Gale Sail is one of those ideas that look good on paper but is truly grim in real life. Until you (wet) have dragged the Gale Sail (wet) forward and hooked the Gale Sail (wet) over the furled foresail (wet) and tried to communicate with the person (wet) at the mast hauling on the spare (you do have a spare?) jib halyard to pull the Gail Sail luff (wet) over the furled jib (did I mention wet?) you will have no idea how bad an idea it really is.
> 
> I've been there and done that, and had to wash the t-shirt twice to get all the salt out. *grin*
> 
> ...


I too have used a Gale Sail and I too dislike it. Good in theory not in the real world. Sail shape is tough and on/off when you really need it, c'mon who puts one on before they need it when miles off shore, it is also tedious to trim.

Dropping a furled head sail in rough conditions is worse and wetter but a true storm jib results in a sail that will actually perform better and if you have miles to put under you then this is a better performing option.

I find most vessels do not have the jib tracks located properly to use a strom jib (less than 100%) and tune it well. No big surprise there though as builders don't generally build for the less than 2% of the time when you might need it. I rig a barber and forward jib snatch blocks for the storm jib before setting off when rough weather might be predicted. My storm jib is pretty small, perhaps a 35-40% or so, but when it gets nasty it works well and the boat balances great. I can also take a few turns of the furler without losing much shape making it even smaller if needed. Beyond that bare poles and a few sq feet of the clew end will sail the boat ok off the wind...

In one nasty storm we bagged the 135% and cross lashed it to the cockpit floor rather than forcing a sopping wet sail down the hatch into a pristine clean and dry masters cabin (delivery). This had a slight added benefit that I have never heard discussed. It reduced the cockpit volume slightly so that when we got pooped for the second or third time it seemed to drain faster. It also provided for a softer landing when the boat pitched and we lost footing in the cockpit. I have not repeated this because most vessels don't have pad eyes on the cockpit floor like that boat did but it was a nice feature whether we used it properly or not. Our own boat has a cavernous sail locker so the wet sails just go in there.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

St Anna said:


> ..
> I have a storm jib folded in a bag and ready to spill. The bag has a velcro opening and is lashed to the rail at the bow. ....
> 
> This works by far and is much safer than that gale sail idea. What I dont like about what I saw in the video is that is disables the use of the genny, requires someone to set halyards and sheets from scratch in lumpy conditions and is a bit of a gimmick. It could be a problem to remove.
> ...


Yes, it is much easier. The Storm Bag is mounted over the genoa and it is a double sail that stands over and on each side of the Genoa. About the halyard you just have to open the block on the cockpint, at the mast you pick the Geenaker or Spinnaker halyard and clip it to the right spot in the bag (the bag stays attached to the genoa bottom clip). Then you have only to bring the sheets back, passing them inside the right spot. You can do this quite easily and in two or three minutes. Then you deploy the sail from the cockpit (halyard up and sheet in).

You only have to remove it when the weather settles, and that is quite easy, since it is a small sail. you just have to pass a sheet around the genoa, unclip it (on the bottom and on the Halyard) and pull it from the cockpit. To mount and fold correctly the sail in the bag it is another story, but you can do that in better weather

It is much easier than to set a removable inner stay and rig the sail, but you will not have a not so good sail shape.

"When the Storm-Bag was tested it was found quite easy to put into position and to hoist, and the double sail system sets well, so will be efficient in extreme conditions."

Peter Bruce
Adlard Coles' Heavy Weather Sailing

Storm Bag

Regards

Paulo


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> ...I rig a barber and forward jib snatch blocks for the storm jib before setting off when rough weather might be predicted.


Maine,

Do you have any pictures of your setup?

Regards,
Brad


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

PCP said:


> It is much easier than to set a removable inner stay and rig the sail, but you will not have a not so good sail shape.


It's quite easy to set the removable inner forestay, hank on the staysail, and run the sheets at the dock before heading offshore. *grin* The staysail just sits in its bag forward, ready when I need it.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

SVAuspicious said:


> It's quite easy to set the removable inner forestay, hank on the staysail, and run the sheets at the dock before heading offshore. *grin* The staysail just sits in its bag forward, ready when I need it.


That's not the point. If you have it in place when you don't need it is not a removable staysail. For the ones that like big genoas (like me) a fixed inner forestay is a drag, specially if you sail solo.

I will not make a passage if I know that I will need a storm sail, so I would sail out with a decent weather report and with the storm sail on the bag, the big genoa free from the inner stay. If on passage things turn out wrong and I get really bad weather, I will have to mount the inner forestay and hank the staysail in the sea, with 35k of wind or more. What I am saying is that it in those conditions it is easier to deploy the storm bag than to mount the inner frontstay and rig the storm sail, especially if you are alone.

But I don't like easy things and I would prefer to sail better with a storm sail than to sail with a less suitable stormbag sail, even if the difference is not that much. But I guess that many would trade the superior performance for an easier job on the front deck, way from the sheltered cockpit

Regards

Paulo


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## bavaria36 (Mar 19, 2011)

*Storm Bag Exprience*

Hi, I'd like to share my little experience with a Storm Bag sail.
I bougth a 6 square meter storm bag as a storm sail and after a few trials on how to deploy and best place to run sheet lines (in between lower shoruds for my Bavaria 36) I have kept it on board.
There are two good things about storm bag 1) Easy to deploy with limited activity at the bow 2) Performs very well at all angles, difficult to believe as it wraps around a furled genoa.
I used it twice. One time on a sailing afternoon for a few hours with 40 to 50 knots, not forecasted and deploing the storm bag made things very easy to deal with (instead of no sails or useless and dangerous partially rolled genoa). Second time on a passage Sardinia to Menorca with 25 knots true Northerly when during the night wind raised to 30 knots - deploing the storm bag was a bit early but not so as a safety action. It was not easy to go and be at the bow for the limited time and actions required to set the storm bag in place, big waves were not just due to the wind at location but 35+ knots were blowing above our route. With that experience I would not consider a good option any storm sail which could be more difficult to deploy than a storm bag. In am quite happy to know that the storm bag pack is there for when I need it. I think for a cruiser and max 250 miles passages a storm bag is OK, I am also considering to add a third reef for the main, as a necessary item, and believe that is how far I will go for my needs.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

bavaria36 said:


> ... With that experience I would not consider a good option any storm sail which could be more difficult to deploy than a storm bag. In am quite happy to know that the storm bag pack is there for when I need it. I think for a cruiser and max 250 miles passages a storm bag is OK, I am also considering to add a third reef for the main, as a necessary item, and believe that is how far I will go for my needs.


Hi! and welcome to Sailnet

I agree with you. I had, like you, a 36 Bavaria for 7 years and I had also a storm bag. I agree with what you say and as I had in mine a small 3th reef on the main I can tell you that it is a big improvement in heavy weather. Probably because I had it I never needed the storm bag. I used the third reef a lot, practically always I had more than 30K of apparent wind. The boat is much more balanced (than only with a front sail) and much faster.

Mount it with two extra blocks, one in each side of the cockpit and you can have full control of it from the cockpit

Regards

Paulo


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Re: Storm Bag Sail: 

The video showed deploying the sail. However, it does not show restowing it in the two part bag, so that it will be ready to redeploy. After you've used it and then pulled it down, how difficult is it to repack it on board the boat in high wind/wave conditions?


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Our 35' sloop came with an extra set of removable stays. It consisted of Navtec rod attached at the second set of spreaders using T-ball fittings. The removable inner forestay lined up with the spinnaker pole lift halyard (to double as a story staysail halyard). This inner forestay connected to a padeye on deck that was property backed up by a short guy belowdeck that transferred loads to a bulkhead. 

There were also 2 running backstays that we temporarily taped to the permanent side stays--which kept them out of the way, but ready to go, without needing to go aloft when we were offshore.

One of our concerns is about removing or securing the 140 genoa if things get nasty. At least the storm jib can go up quickly on the inner forestay. Rigging the trysail is another matter, since our main has full length battens and it would be time-consuming and awkward to take the main off altogether. Thankfully, we never got to that point.

All that said, I'm more comfortable with deep reefing the main than deep reefing a genoa for all the known reasons. If you can at least get a storm jib up, you would have more control. 

My suggestion is to look at rigging an inner forestay if you can accommodate it and buying a storm jib. If you are only going 600 nm or so, you ought to be able to manage your schedule to avoid the really nasty conditions.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

This is an old thread so not an answer for Brad as I guess he has worked out the way he wants to go.



Bene505 said:


> 1) . Is a storm jib necessary?


No. You can't be on the fordeck stuffing around with sails in 40+ knots with a shorthanded crew of retired folks. So roll the damn thing up to a lil bit and ride out the blow. 



Bene505 said:


> 2) If so, how do you deploy it? Unless everyone is using the ATN storm jib that fastens over the rolled-up jib,
> Regards,
> Brad


As I said above the fordeck is a place I don't need to be 
Sailing in the right season storms will be more like squalls and short lived.
Out of season of the Southern Ocean etc is different. And I'm not doing neither


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

NCC320 said:


> Re: Storm Bag Sail:
> 
> The video showed deploying the sail. However, it does not show restowing it in the two part bag, so that it will be ready to redeploy. After you've used it and then pulled it down, how difficult is it to repack it on board the boat in high wind/wave conditions?


A Storm Bag is easy to deploy but it is a lot more difficult to restow it in the bag. But that should not be a problem since you are going only to take it down and store it when the conditions are not bad anymore. Besides you have to go to the bow, even if for a short time, to deploy it but for restowing you can make it on the cockpit (it is not a big sail).

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> ...
> 
> No. You can't be on the fordeck stuffing around with sails in 40+ knots with a shorthanded crew of retired folks. So roll the damn thing up to a lil bit and ride out the blow.
> ....
> ...


Then, if something goes wrong (several things can) the full genoa is deployed and you are lucky if the mast stays in one piece.

Even if all things go right it is dangerous and you are ruining your genoa that is not made to take that strain and will lose shape.

Regards

Paulo


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I've used my 100% jib furled down to a tab in combination with a single reefed main on several occasions when the winds kicked at 25 to 30K in Chesapeake Bay. I was aboard my Catalina 27, and at the time I worried about the overall pressure being applied to the standing rigging--even when fairly tight on the wind. When the winds hit 40 I lowered the main, left that tiny tab of jib out and sailed for the protection of the nearest cove, dropped the hook and spent the next two days waiting for the weather to improve. I often wonder what I would have done if I had been halfway to Bermuda when those conditions arise. I suspect nothing different would have been done in reference to the sail configuration, but the trip to Bermuda may have been long and arduous at best.

For the folks that lost their roller furling lines, especially in the middle of the night, I inspect my furling line every time it is deployed. I look for chaffing and wear, and every two years it is replaced. Additionally, the Alado roller furling drum, which is the one I use, is constructed in such a way to prevent chaffing of the furling control line. Therefore, even though I replace the line to be on the safe side, from all outward appearances the line is still in perfect condition. Just something to consider.

Great topic,

Gary


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## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

28 years ago I had a Hunter 27 that I converted to a roller reefing 150% genoa. I had the old 110 jib cut into a staysail, and installed a padeye and removable stay in the deck. It was reinforced with a turnbuckle below deck tied into the hull. I took the boat out in the ocean on a day when it was blowing maybe 15 to 18 knots. Using the roller furling genoa I could couldn't find any combination that would allow me to sail upwind! We tacked back and forth for 1/2 hour and gained but a few feet. I then furled the genoa and set the staysail, and we took off for our destination 20 miles away. I was very surprised that it made so much difference!

The guy on the dock next to me with a Hunter 25 had something I've never seen before, reefable hank on jib. It had a second clew ring above the standard one, and ties to hold the extra cloth. I sailed with him one day when it was blowing a a steady 25 mph and it worked really well.

Gary H. Lucas


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## bavaria36 (Mar 19, 2011)

PCP said:


> Hi! and welcome to Sailnet
> 
> I agree with you. I had, like you, a 36 Bavaria for 7 years and I had also a storm bag. I agree with what you say and as I had in mine a small 3th reef on the main I can tell you that it is a big improvement in heavy weather. Probably because I had it I never needed the storm bag. I used the third reef a lot, practically always I had more than 30K of apparent wind. The boat is much more balanced (than only with a front sail) and much faster.
> 
> ...


Hi, this is good to know, and from a bav 36 owner perspective. By the way my boat has just entered its 8th year and doing well.

I was going to enquiry with sailmaker and rigger for a 3rd single line reef, similarly to reef 1 and 2. From what you say about the two extra blocks you did something different than a single line reef, any more details?

Regards,

Alberto


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## bavaria36 (Mar 19, 2011)

NCC320 said:


> Re: Storm Bag Sail:
> 
> The video showed deploying the sail. However, it does not show restowing it in the two part bag, so that it will be ready to redeploy. After you've used it and then pulled it down, how difficult is it to repack it on board the boat in high wind/wave conditions?


Repacking the storm bag is pretty easy on a quay. I have never tried to repack on board. I think it would be not practical (speaking for myself not possible) to repack on board in high wind/wave conditions but it would be possible in fair conditions. In the two occasions I used the storm bag I did not need to repack on board as I approached shelter. The storm bag sail is small, easy to lower, I have not tried yet but I think it is possible, instead of repacking it, to fasten it at the bow pulpit and lines in such a way to allow using the genoa and if needed to re-deploy. In the picture the storm bag after usage fastened down, before removing and repacking.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Brad, I don't think anyone mentioned this, but even if your furling sail and gear were strong enough to be used as a storm sail, you'd probably damage the sail (blow out the shape) from using it that way.

A furler may be one size fits all, but that still ignores the question that really, you may need a light 150 in light winds, a heavier 110 to boom along in 20 knots and hold shape, and by the time you get to 30+ knots...you need storm cloth and the storm sail anyway, the cloth that was good for a 130 is just going to be all stretched out in heavy winds.

So getting the storm sail also will prolong the life of your roller sail.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

bavaria36 said:


> Hi, this is good to know, and from a bav 36 owner perspective. By the way my boat has just entered its 8th year and doing well.
> 
> I was going to enquiry with sailmaker and rigger for a 3rd single line reef, similarly to reef 1 and 2. From what you say about the two extra blocks you did something different than a single line reef, any more details?
> 
> ...


Hi Alberto,

I was sailing those waters two years ago. I have also made that passage between Minorca and Sardinia where strong winds are expected,. Actually it was for doing that I bought the sail-bag

Yes I have catched strong winds (25/30K) but I didn't need the storm bag instead had a fantastic downwind ride averaging about 7.5K and staying many hours over 9K with surfs on two digit speeds. Great sailing 24 hours (a bit less) that I shared with my 15 year old son

That boat looks like my old one A good looking boat in my opinion, but I am hardly impartial about that .

Curiously my boat was sold to an Italian. It is on a marina near Piombino and if you are nearer you can have a look how it was done.

You cannot have another single reef on that set up. The boom mechanism does not allow that. That's why all new boats come only with two reefs. That's why you have to have two blocks and two lines.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

GaryHLucas said:


> ....
> 
> The guy on the dock next to me with a Hunter 25 had something I've never seen before, reefable hank on jib. It had a second clew ring above the standard one, and ties to hold the extra cloth. I sailed with him one day when it was blowing a a steady 25 mph and it worked really well.
> 
> Gary H. Lucas


Gary,
That set up is an old one I had it on my first boat, a 80 year's old traditional boat

Funny thing is that now some racing boats are using it again, so I guess sailmakers will know again how to make them properly. They even do that to gennakers and they use a zip to put in a kind of bag all the sail that was taken out with the reef.

They are using it on the 40 class racing boats. They have a restricted number of sails to carry on a Transat so they use reefs on the front sails to provide more flexibility and versatility 

Regards

Paulo


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

PCP said:


> Then, if something goes wrong (several things can) the full genoa is deployed and you are lucky if the mast stays in one piece.
> 
> Paulo


Hi Paulo,

I don't think its too likely in the real world. If it does unfurl then you can drop it. It its a catestrophic failure you can slice it from the foot and let nature do its work. That will take 10 seconds to cut and nautre about 10 seconds to complete 

Re: Sardinia/Legurian Sea/Tyrrhenian Seas: That area is a bit nutso! Capri to Sainta Margareta saw the lot from water spouts forming to immense thunderstorms with 60 knots wind, and every night lightening from every quarter.

Wanna reef fast there.

I thought it was meant to be some nice docile area with Itanlians driving speedboats with more chain (gold) around their necks than on the anchor.

Mark


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## glennangel (Apr 28, 2009)

Ive been sailing for most of my life, mostly coastal, and some short offshore hauls. My rule of thumb is detachable forestay and storm jim are the minimum. Sea anchors should be in the inventory also. Getting caught without the right equipment can mean more than just broken gear. Lives are often lost because of not thinking worst case scenarios before heading offshore.
My friends who went on my adventures used to rib me about all the equipment I carried, saying what are you planning for, a sinking? And I'd say exactly....


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## dpex (Jul 4, 2010)

*Reefing*

Reefing down is an act undertaken explicitly by the lights of the skipper. Some will deep-reef when 25 knots arrives. Others at 40. There are no rules other than the skipper and crews physical and emotional comfort.

Having said that an averagely well designed boat can hold full-sail in 25Knots, gutsing 30/25, when a crew is available for good trimming through the gusts. Short-handed, or a skipper with an inexperienced crew would probably do well to reef earlier.

Up to around 30/35 knots gusting, if the skipper is competent and knows his boat, then roller reefing 'is' an option. But remember, your full headsail is a light-weight sail designed for modest conditions.

Further, if your boat is a bit tender then as you roller-reef you step the centre of effort higher and higher, which can increase heel angle.

In truth, if you have roller reefing on a 120/130% headsail it would be better to buy a much smaller, much heavier haedsail with a wire luff, and fit a snap ring into your foredeck and use your spinnaker halyard as the hoist.

Make sure you buy such a sail where the clew is in the same line of attack as your main headsail's. That way you can simply unclip the big one and clip on the small. Furthermore, in doing this, the cenre of effort is kept as low as possible.

Hope that hemps.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

dpex said:


> .
> 
> Having said that an averagely well designed boat can hold full-sail in 25Knots, gutsing 30/25, when a crew is available for good trimming through the gusts. Short-handed, or a skipper with an inexperienced crew would probably do well to reef earlier.


That depends a lot on the type of boat and the size of the head sail. You are probably talking about an old boat or an heavy/medium displacement boat. Modern boats, depending on the design normally will have to take the first reef sooner, between 18/22K wind and the second between 25/30K. Normally with automatic reefs boats will not have a third reef but if you mount one it will be used over 35/40K wind, this off course assuming going upwind.



dpex said:


> .
> Up to around 30/35 knots gusting, if the skipper is competent and knows his boat, then roller reefing 'is' an option. But remember, your full headsail is a light-weight sail designed for modest conditions.
> 
> Further, if your boat is a bit tender then as you roller-reef you step the centre of effort higher and higher, which can increase heel angle.


How you reef your boat, meaning the order when to roll the head sail or put a reef on the main and the balance between the two depends much on type of boat and the way it is rigged (big head sail, relatively small main or big main and smaller head sail). In some boats you can go faster having almost the full genoa with a reef on the main others will work better with a reefed genoa and full main and others, with a small head sail, can have it with a lot of wind and you just have to reef the main.



dpex said:


> .
> 
> In truth, if you have roller reefing on a 120/130% headsail it would be better to buy a much smaller, much heavier haedsail with a wire luff, and fit a snap ring into your foredeck and use your spinnaker halyard as the hoist.
> 
> Make sure you buy such a sail where the clew is in the same line of attack as your main headsail's. That way you can simply unclip the big one and clip on the small. Furthermore, in doing this, the cenre of effort is kept as low as possible.


Yes I agree but what you are talking about is practically the same thing has having a removable stay sail. But guys take care, it is not just enough to fit a snap ring on the foredeck. The forces that are going to be made there are huge. You have to reinforce all the area and have a way of transmitting those efforts to the structure of the boat. It is better if it is provided by the manufacturer or made by someone that has the experience and knoweledge to do that

Regards

Paulo


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## YeahJohn (Nov 4, 2010)

Don't they make a furling head sail with a intermediate reef point for basic reefing. Yes a storm jib is needed but in a situation where you are just trying to reduce heel reefable headsail should do the job and keep shape. Kappa makes one they claim reefs to a storm jib.


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## SailingFireFighter123 (Nov 16, 2010)

I think 'Minnewaska' says it all, in his last sentence.


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## willyd (Feb 22, 2008)

Is not having a separate storm jib less of an issue for smaller boats, where the loads would be less? My boat is 25' and 5,000 lbs and the PO installed a CVI flexible furler. I don't have an inner forestay, so this topic has me wondering. I don't see how it would be remotely possible to bring down my roller furling jib if the wind were blowing enough to warrant putting up a separate storm jib.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

willyd said:


> Is not having a separate storm jib less of an issue for smaller boats, where the loads would be less? My boat is 25' and 5,000 lbs and the PO installed a CVI flexible furler. I don't have an inner forestay, so this topic has me wondering. I don't see how it would be remotely possible to bring down my roller furling jib if the wind were blowing enough to warrant putting up a separate storm jib.


It depends on the use you give to your boat. On a 26ft probably you are not crosing the Atlatic so probably you are more than ok.

But let me point down that a removable stay for a storm jib it is not necessarily an inner-forestay. Some boats have the place for the removable forestay just a little bit aft the furling stay.

Regards

Paulo


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

We got caught for a brief time in winds that picked up to 45+kts sustained. We deep reefed the genoa and but only had a single reef in the main. Lost an 11' batten and shredded the telltales on a brand-new North sail that had the reef points improperly positioned.

This was in a short, 20 mile race, where the predicted 20-25 kts rapidly escalated. We didn't have time to go forward to hook the tack for the second reef (just my wife and I on the boat and we hadn't rigged jacklines) when it started blowing like stink. We were beating on an upwind leg to clear an island before heading into port and were getting the first set of life lines in the water on the roll.

Lessons learned: 1) have the sail loft that measured your boat verify when the sails are delivered 2) if you don't arrange for the sail loft to do so, check your reef points carefully and don't wait till you need to reef to do it. 3) a deep-reefed genoa doesn't have the best aerodynamics. 4) not being able to flatten your sail will not allow you to sail close to the wind, nor will a deep-reefed genoa.

Bottom line: If you need to go to weather in a blow, make sure your sails are appropriate. A deep-reefed genoa isn't appropriate, even if it doesn't overly stress your rig. 

P.S. We have storm sails and removable inner forestay and running backstays, but they weren't on the boat at the time. If I were to attempt Bermuda, they would be aboard.


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## redhead78 (Dec 7, 2009)

hey guys I have a small storm gib, although it has hank on hardware I thinhk the PO used 1 of 2 spinnaker haylards to a bow eye halfway between the furl genny, and the main then hoisted on said line with spinnaker halyard 2 as kind of a cutter sail rig. I would like to use as a gale sail, tryig to figure out how to attach loosely to my furled sail. Maybe small line with loops on each end and small carabiners.....any thoughts???? Red


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

I have a storm jib which appears out of the locker when on passage. It is in its own bag with a velcro opening. A dedicated halyard and downhaul are attached as are the sheets. 

If needed, the genoa would be furled and the storm jib halyard will 'pop' the jib out of its bag and it can be raised / or lowered from the cockpit.

As I dont expect to be offshore anytime in the next year or two, the storm jib will be stashed away.


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

Bene505 said:


> Saw this mentioned on another thread and thought it worth asking about. And yes I see how crappy the shape is on a partially furled headsail, so maybe I know the answer already. My second question (below) stays relevant though....
> 
> 1) We have a roller furled headsail (130%). One day I'd like to sail our boat to Bermuda. Is a storm jib necessary?
> 
> 2) If so, how do you deploy it? Unless everyone is using the ATN storm jib that fastens over the rolled-up jib, I suppose everyone could be sliding their jib down the foil and putting it below. Is that the case? That seems like a challenge in any significant wind and seas.





> Good question I've wondered this myself, The experienced sailors that I have asked say you can use your furled headsail but it does put tremendous strain on your furling lines, and tackle etc. Just be sure its in good shape. We have a spare hank on style storm jib just as an emergency. Hope we never need half the stuff we "have in case" of an emergency.


Can you say "destroyed in 60 seconds"? The world is full of cliches; "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure", or for the Boy-Girl Scout in you, "Always Prepared". Either way, a storm tri mounted on the main is a far safer approach to heavy weather sailing. Boats with "in boom or "in mast" main furling will have to add an external track to the main stick, but it's not a big deal. Putting all the load on the forestay is looking for a _whole lot_ of trouble. If you're cruising and the weather is turning bad, it doesn't take but a few minutes to slide a main tri into it's track (it can be kept bagged under the boom till needed). A main mounted tri also gives better balance if you have to heave to, or perform an MOB. A head sail storm tri can also be added, but just end up in the way. Control is the key; if you think you can control a 130% Genoa in 50-70 knot winds (furled or not), go for it; if not, be prepared.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

A storm sail will outperform a partially-furled roller-furled sail any (stormy) day of the week.

A storm sail is wired around its perimeter, and is made from a very heavy fabric (typically orange).

A storm sail is vastly stronger than any conventional sail, partially furled or otherwise, and almost impossible to blow them out. Its centre of effort is very low and so it does not heel the boat much, and there is tremendous drive in high winds. I have seen a storm trysail pull the mainsail track out of the deck, such were the forces.

Make sure that the storm trysail has a separate track. The last thing you would want is to have to take the mainsail off before mounting the storm sail.

Storm sails for me, every time folks.
.


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## redhead78 (Dec 7, 2009)

Anna, I understand what u r talking about, except if u hav a furler genny, what do u hank the storm sail to? do u have an extra stay. That was my ? I have a small storm gib, with no stay to hank it to. I am trying to find a way to fly it off my existing furled headsail. I am trying to think how I can attach it loosely and fairly timely fashion. Red


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Red,

You could have a local loft possibly put some new cloth around it so you velcro it on to the furled genoa. I believe there is an actual name brand for this type of option. 

Another option I did a few times to see how it worked......I used on of my halyards attached to the bow, tightened it as much as possible, hanked on the SJ to it. It did frankly bow a bit more than I wanted......so I had a local loft remove the hanks, and put a #6 luff tape in, and now use this way. I do ot have a furler, so to make this options wor, you would need to remove the genoa going into a storm, and put the SJ in a groove on the furler. 

I would personally talk with a local sail repair loft to get your best option. You might also be able to attach it to a mini forestay which I believe your Gin Fizz may have, as a lot of late 70 to ealry 80 Jeanneau's had i mini forestays. For the halyard, you would use the spin pole line or something out of the same place on the mast, if you are rigged like my 85 Arcadia.

marty


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

redhead78 said:


> Anna, I understand what u r talking about, except if u hav a furler genny, what do u hank the storm sail to? do u have an extra stay. That was my ? I have a small storm gib, with no stay to hank it to. I am trying to find a way to fly it off my existing furled headsail. I am trying to think how I can attach it loosely and fairly timely fashion. Red


Hi Redhead,

I have the 'modern' version of a wire luff - made of the line they say you can use for backstays etc.

I just winch the luff to death , it is hanked on just aft of the furler and the halyard goes to the top of the mast [ I can put it at the 2nd spreader, but stay wise, its better going to the top]


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## willyd (Feb 22, 2008)

St Anna said:


> Hi
> 
> I have the 'modern' version of a wire luff - made of the line they say you can use for backstays etc.
> 
> I just winch the luff to death , it is hanked on just aft of the furler and the halyard goes to the top of the mast [ I can put it at the 2nd spreader, but stay wise, its better going to the top]


But doesn't this put quite a bit of load on the halyard masthead block?


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Now I'm no expert on storm sails, so I offer only advice I've heard - namely that a storm jib should not be set on the forestay, but on an inner forestay. The stated reason being that a boat will face difficult lee helm with a storm jib and trysail/reefed main, both with CEs quite forward. They also will not work together. Just what I've been told...


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I carry a storm jib, but haven't used it in my last 4 Pacific crossings. The deeply furled jib has worked fine for me.


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## redhead78 (Dec 7, 2009)

Marty, I agree I would like to get a closer look at the product called the "GAle sail" from what I can figure they have made a kind of loop with maybe velcro on the luff that after u remove the genny sheets it fits loosely around the furled sail. Taking my genny down from the track is not even close to an option, its enough of a pain in the ass job just doing it once in the spring at the dock...mybe some kind of lite line wf double ended loops to the hanks???? thank for the info Red


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

St Anna said:


> I have a storm jib which appears out of the locker when on passage. It is in its own bag with a velcro opening. A dedicated halyard and downhaul are attached as are the sheets.
> 
> If needed, the genoa would be furled and the storm jib halyard will 'pop' the jib out of its bag and it can be raised / or lowered from the cockpit.
> 
> As I dont expect to be offshore anytime in the next year or two, the storm jib will be stashed away.


I really like this idea. Have thought about doing something like it, using a sewn-in Dyneema boltrope/halyard. Do you have a separate halyard winch on the cabin top to tension it or do you run your lines back to the main headsail winches? Where did you place your upper and lower attachments? With a rig like this it would seem that there is no need for a low mast attachment point like an inner stay and that the block could be right at the mast top, eliminating the need to have removable backstays.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

St Anna said:


> Hi Redhead,
> 
> I have the 'modern' version of a wire luff - made of the line they say you can use for backstays etc.
> 
> I just winch the luff to death , it is hanked on just aft of the furler and the halyard goes to the top of the mast [ I can put it at the 2nd spreader, but stay wise, its better going to the top]


My boat has a removable stay but I have saw in others a storm sail that has integrated a wire luff. It comes like that from the shipyard, it is an option and If they use it I am sure it works.

But as you say it cannot be rigged more than about 20cm below the stay otherwise you need running backstays.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

redhead78 said:


> Marty, I agree I would like to get a closer look at the product called the "GAle sail" from what I can figure they have made a kind of loop with maybe velcro on the luff that after u remove the genny sheets it fits loosely around the furled sail. Taking my genny down from the track is not even close to an option, its enough of a pain in the ass job just doing it once in the spring at the dock...mybe some kind of lite line wf double ended loops to the hanks???? thank for the info Red


Maybe you want also to look at this one:






It is the one we use In Europe, the Storm Bag. I had one, never used it except for trying. It was not dificult to deploy but a pain in the ass to put again in the bag 

Regards

Paulo


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## willyd (Feb 22, 2008)

I ended up consulting a local rigger about this question, and he installed a padeye about 1/4 of the way down from the masthead and a d-shackle on my mooring cleat, which is about 2' aft of my bow, so now I can hoist my wire-luffed storm jib using a halyard that runs through a block at the masthead, with the line leading down the face of the mast to the padeye, then to the head of the storm jib. The only semi technical part was making sure we located the padeye so that the halyard and luff of the storm jib were parallel to the forestay (of the roller furled jib). I haven't tried it out in heavy weather yet, but it does mimic the arrangement that Val Howells had on the folkboat he sailed across the Atlantic in. I can send pictures if anyone's interested.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

willyd said:


> I ended up consulting a local rigger about this question, and he installed a padeye about 1/4 of the way down from the masthead and a d-shackle on my mooring cleat, which is about 2' aft of my bow, so now I can hoist my wire-luffed storm jib using a halyard that runs through a block at the masthead, with the line leading down the face of the mast to the padeye, then to the head of the storm jib. The only semi technical part was making sure we located the padeye so that the halyard and luff of the storm jib were parallel to the forestay (of the roller furled jib). I haven't tried it out in heavy weather yet, but it does mimic the arrangement that Val Howells had on the folkboat he sailed across the Atlantic in. I can send pictures if anyone's interested.


Don't try it with heavy weather because if the padeye is 1/4 of the way from the masthead you will need running backstays (rigged on the mast at the opposite side of the padeye) otherwise you can break your mast.

Regards

Paulo


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## willyd (Feb 22, 2008)

PCP said:


> Don't try it with heavy weather because if the padeye is 1/4 of the way from the masthead you will need running backstays (rigged on the mast at the opposite side of the padeye) otherwise you can break your mast.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Oh? Even though the halyard runs through a block at the masthead before coming down to the padeye?

- Will


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