# Common sense, sailing and the poor bastards that risk their lifes for it



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Is it just me or there seems to be an enormous lack of COMMON SENSE here amidst *some* of our dear members??

I don't know...I am really amazed how the statistics are so low...and the amount of accidents is so small...

I mean, the amount of postings I read here, that make me nod and become a harder prayer, from people that seem to just venture into the "unknown" just for the heck of it...or to get the "training", without first learning to "walk"...

Some posts here, I just think to my self..."there goes another one that's going to kill himself...."

I don't know....where I come from, no one gets on a boat without first getting to sail school, go thru the full course, get the appropriate sailing licence....then go....but when we go, we're prepared, we control everything except the weather...that one we learn to "read"...

I have nothing against suicidal people, as long as they don't drag others with them, which is normally not the case...want to kill yourself?? good luck, be quick and don't bleed too much, its disgusting...the problem is risking the lifes of those truing to stop you from bleeding....if you want to kill yourself, do it far away, where no one risks for you....and pleeeese do it alone...leave the spouses at home, they don't need to see you trembling when the blood cools down, besides they need to marry another more inteligent stronger human being, since you were a "bad horse" to bet on.....

I am amazed, maybe its just me....

Anyway, I am almost signing off, till next year, so be safe, and please, first know your limits, and learn to walk before you start runing....does't hurt so much when you fall and we don't have to stop the race to pick you up....


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## Robby Barlow (Apr 23, 2006)

It's not just you.

But you're quite lucky, most of "them" don't seem to make it as far as Portugal.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Robby Barlow said:


> It's not just you.
> 
> But you're quite lucky, most of "them" don't seem to make it as far as Portugal.


Most of them *wouldn't be allowed *to sail here anyway...you need a sailing "driving licence", and to get one...only by going to NAVY sailing school, pass all the exams, and have a minimal sailing lessons, in most conditions. And let me tell you, it's pretty hard and time consuming.

maybe that's why we're "protected".....


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## Robby Barlow (Apr 23, 2006)

Giu, I think the license requirement is only for nationals not foreigners.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

The Navy in Portugal requires visitors into the country, to declare themselves to the customs.

As far as licencing, it requires a boat inspection upon arrival by the sea police, customs and fiscal police, and the captain must hold a licence of the Country of origin, if in his country it is mandatory by law.

An American can sail here for 6 months, as long as its in his boat. If he has no licence and his caught capitaining other than his boat he gets arrested and the boat too.

meaning you can sail here, coming from a country without required licencing, but on a boat from same country, and you can not sail other boat as captain.

Insurance is mandatory.


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## petegingras (Mar 29, 2007)

Yep I’d concede that the free societies have breed myriad problems and allowed some to exploit those evils. I’d like to consider that no one purposely does harm to oneself in an effort to drain public resources.

I think Giu, your point is how deep does the public’s interest concern the regulating bodies that universal suffrage has bestowed us all. 

Where I write from minority voices can be heard to banish the regulators, and let those that need regulation regulate themselves.

But I truly believe that sailing is the only true adventure left for some time to come. 

So yes, good luck to those seeking to harm themselves. Oh ya, the USGC sometimes requires the rest of us to lend assistance to those harming themselves.

p.s. nice video work, make the site they're posted on known to the subject of this thread


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

*Hey Giu, maybe it's my arrogance, but I can't help but*

think that you might be referring to me - at least partially.

I want to say that I do not think of myself as suicidal. I do not want to harm others. I think I have (and use) common sense.

I do not want my wife to marry a better horse.

While I agree that, for some, lessons and licensing is not a bad idea. You just have to look at the number of automobile accidents that happen around the world to see that just having a government issued license does not make you good at something.

I teach. I would like to think that the only way to be successful in the trade in which I teach is to be taught by me or someone like me. But it has been proven time and again that the most successful people in my trade do not have any formal training.

I strongly believe that a certificate or license only indicates that you were able to satisfy the requirements of the licensing body on the day you earned the certificate. (Most University grads cannot even remember the names of their professors 4 years after they graduate).

For me to learn I have to do. Ideally I would be 'doing' under the guidance of somebody with more experience. And when I have that luxury I definitely take advantage of it. Unfortunately there is not always somebody around to teach me, so I take my tiller in hand and teach myself. The alternative is to keep my boat tied to the dock.

I have taken a course on boating and learned a lot about plotting cruises, navigation etc. I intend to take more courses. I would also like to crew for some of the local races.

I believe that, for me, this is the best way for me to learn. I know that taking a formal sailing course would be an exercise in frustration for me and would probably be counter-productive.



Giulietta said:


> Is it just me or there seems to be an enormous lack of COMMON SENSE here amidst *some* of our dear members??
> 
> I don't know...I am really amazed how the statistics are so low...and the amount of accidents is so small...
> 
> ...


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Whether some of this thread was intended for me is not the point of my response. Common sense is something you're born with. It's not acquired. Detailed, purposeful methodology used to increase one's skills is developed from lessons hard won and life's experience. Not suicidal tendency. Telling the tales of adventure is a character flaw, or not, depending on your perspective. Sometimes it's simple sharing and hoping someone out there has been, seen, felt the same. Regardless, enjoy your Holidays Alex and don't let frustration with some crazy Americans run ya off. Some of us really are a bit off ya know, it's what makes us who we are. No apologies there.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Starting this thread didn't show much common sense. Common sense should tell us when to back away from the keyboard.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Siamese, if ya hang around and read enough of Alex's posts, you'll find him to be a passionate, outspoken person who says what he feels, sometimes whether it's a good idea or not. The one constant is honesty. The man will tell ya what he thinks, feels and I for one, appreciate that.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

G- By far, most of our sailors in this country sail little daysailers and racing dinghies on small, inland lakes and reservoirs on weekends, and many of them are self-taught, and, in that environment, they get along just fine. I think it would be a shame if they were required to get licensed or even formally trained. I think it would discourage people from learning to sail. On the other hand, people who sail keelboats on big bays or coastal waters can be a hazard, and it looks like some states are gradually moving in the direction of requiring training and licensing.


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## GySgt (Jun 11, 2007)

Hey Alex, I can't relate, I am taking all the ASA classes, along with my wife and daughter. I crew with sailors that have more or the same sailing experience, usually more. Most of the members here have done a good job educating me and displayed a lot of long suffering.

Although I agree there are morons out there, they usually sort themselves out. As some of the member push their limits, they become good stories in which to learn from. 

All in all, I like this board and love sailing.

P.S. Have a great new year to all.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

It is *all* about common sense.
When I sail, its almost like second nature to me.
I am always thinking ahead and planning my next moves which are dictated by my surroundings. When something happens I react. Often times I react with out hardly having to think, like I said second nature.
Yes, we do put ourselves in conditions that would be considered dangerous, sailing in and of itself can be dangerous. When conditions detiroirate we use all of the knowledge we have gained over the years to combat such situations. I am to the point now that I feel there is very little that can happen aboard in which I could not save my crew, myself and my vessel.
Everything from Blown engines to rig failure has been processed in my brain a thousand times over and over through out the years. Each and everythime out I think about such things. If something were to happen, I believe I have the knowledge of my boat and my waters to help me through the situation. 
There is a Black Box therory that goes something like this.
We all have on board a black box, kind of like a bank deposit box. Everytime we do something right, show some sign of seamanship, help another boater, etc., we are actually making a deposit into our boating bank account. Than when we get caught in a situation which we were not entierly prepared for, we make a withdrawl from our black box. Hopefully we have made enough deposits over the years so that when the time comes, we can make that withdrawl. You never know when you might need it. 
Am I complacent? Certainly not. I have a deep respect for the sea. I know what harm she can bring.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I think the older one gets, the more it dawns to someone that I could die if I do that. So to that sense, the older one gets the more "Common sense" they get.

I do think Alex's statements were broad in nature and not aimed at anyone in particular.

.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Yeah, the thought of dying becomes more real as ya get on in years and the reluctance to do so increases as well. When you're young, death has no felt meaning. When you realize you've probably been alive longer than the years ya have left, your perspective changes.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Well said, tjk.
In another thread, I make the point that experience is best gained in pieces and not swallowed whole. The passing squall is of far more benefit to the prudent sailor than the gale is to the bold sailor. The prudent sailor amasses knowledge with experience, but does not seek out ever greater dangers to expand that experience. As experience builds, confidence is more severe conditions is gained. But this is not the same as advancing grades is school. As I've said elsewhere, the sea and weather will come. If you sail enough, gaining experience all the while, you are going to get caught out in weather. Hopefully it will be weather you're able to handle. That is not the same as saying to one's self, "I've been out in 25-30 knots and six foot seas, now it's time to try 35 knots and 8-10 foot seas". This type of logic lends itself to the idea that storm sailing experience in breaking waves is something one should acquire, etc... I reject that, preferring the notion of the black box and the idea that one compiles one's previous experiences with research into more severe conditions, and extrapolates those two to what might be.

I've twenty years deep sea experience and have a real good idea of "what might be" out there awaiting. I see no point to going and seeking it out for an edecational experience that could well prove fatal. Keep sailing, sail often enough, and the sea will come to you. It is inevitable. Hope and trust then that your experience is sufficient to the task. You need not go out in conditions that will put the matter immediately to the test, to learn what may ultimately be needed. Far better to return pleasantly surprised that you and your boat could withstand severe conditions than to venture out to discover you cannot.

There are old sailors. There are bold sailors. There are no old, bold sailors.


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## HGSail (Jan 21, 2006)

Just because you take a sailing class DOES NOT make you a good sailor. I have been sailing sence the age of five. (I'm fifty now) My father and his best friend tought me everything I know. They took me out in great weather and also out in not so great weather, I've seen both sides of the spectrum. I also know quite a few "school tought" sailors that I would not be cought dead with out on the water. Incompetance is a human trait and it has nothing to do with schooling...............PERIOD!

Pat
E29
'73
#224
Hole Guacamole


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Damn it's nice to see these lurkers coming out and being passionate about sailing! This turned out to be a good thread!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Check out the word Forum in your local dictionary.

In my months reading a number of posts I have been able to determine those individuals "in love with the sound of thier own voice" and deaf to the words of others.

I tend to bypass thier posts and read those that help me learn/understand.

I have little patience for arrogance. 

If you are here because you want to share your hard won knowledge...share.

If you are here because you feel superior to the rest of us...we know...and I would prefer you find another part of he playground... and go play with yourself.


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

when tracy and i started out, we both took on the water training and got the ticket or license or whatever that is. in retrospect, it was pretty damned minimal considering how challenging the coast around here can be. it probably would have been more appropriate for dinghy sailing. 

having said that, we did learn the basics of how to raise and reef and how to navigate and trim. just enough info to get into trouble 
armed with that minimal knowledge we headed out in out thunderbird and made a lot of mistakes, but nothing life threatening. and i'm glad i learned first on an inexpensive, tender boat.
ultimately you can't learn except by doing. that's how we learn to drive cars, and that presents a much greater risk to the neophyte. i ride motorcycles, and i don't think there is anything more dangerous than when i was learning. it just comes with our choices.
there a gazzilion ways to kill yourself, and i am glad we don't decide on responsibility before we save someone's ass. i read in the paper the other day that 4 people have been killed in bc this last week due to snowmobiling accidents, two in an avalanche. we don't think twice if it was smart to send out the avalanche patrol after what might have been two yahoos who set off a mountain of snow on themselves, and we don't question it when we send someone out to save a foolish sailor. 

besides, i'm sure people who save lives for a living love their work.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Dunlookn said:


> Check out the word Forum in your local dictionary.
> 
> In my months reading a number of posts I have been able to determine those individuals "in love with the sound of thier own voice" and deaf to the words of others.
> 
> ...


I have lots of time to spend up here and do. I hope I'm not deaf to the words of others. If it seems that way just slap me.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

Hoffa, you had a thunderbird 26? if so +1. Keep up with info like that and I might have a positive opinion of you yet. ;P

Generally I agree with Giu's point. But hey, this is the internet, what did you expect. It's an idiot magnet. That's why I'm here.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

Dunlookn said:


> Check out the word Forum in your local dictionary.
> 
> In my months reading a number of posts I have been able to determine those individuals "in love with the sound of thier own voice" and deaf to the words of others.
> 
> ...


 Did you really mean to be so hard on yourself?


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Love it.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

tenuki said:


> Did you really mean to be so hard on yourself?


Very funny T, Nothing like having a good laugh at the expense of others.
Dunlookin, there is a vast base of knowledge in these threads. Many people on this site have many many years of open/blue water experience. Some other only have sailed inland lakes in dinghys. That is what makes this site so great. It doen't matter what or where you sail.

The individual that I believe you are refering to has more knowledge than all of us combined.

If you decide not to listen and ignore, you will be missing out on a fountain of knowledge. Hell, I even listen to what Charlie has to say.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Why would anyone listen to me other than for some entertainment? I have lots of knowledge about various things but here, I'm still a Rook. I'm a gainin' on some of ya'll though so watch out!


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Dunlookin...you hit the nail squarely on the head. This forum has great potential to be an exchange of information, which it is five percent of the time. It's a shame you have to wade through posts from the people who, as you say, are in love with the sound of their own voices.

Every time you log in, it's the same people chiming in regardless of whether they have anything to add, relying on the good manners of others to not tell them to shut up. 

And boy am I tired of you know who bragging about his boat and assuming everyone on the planet acknowledges it's the finest piece of fiberglass to ever hit saltwater. Not realizing, of course, that we're all in love with our own vessels but humble enough to keep our fingers off the keyboard until we have something to ask or something substantial to contribute. 

Dunlookin....you rock!


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Siamese said:


> Dunlookin...you hit the nail squarely on the head. This forum has great potential to be an exchange of information, which it is five percent of the time. It's a shame you have to wade through posts from the people who, as you say, are in love with the sound of their own voices.
> 
> Every time you log in, it's the same people chiming in regardless of whether they have anything to add, relying on the good manners of others to not tell them to shut up.
> 
> ...


Siamese, the truth is, on a very good day, maybe the very best day, my boat can go 1/2 as fast as HIS boat. So I'll listen to what HE says. This isn't church ........ ligthen up.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

Siamese said:


> This forum has great potential to be an exchange of information, which it is five percent of the time. It's a shame you have to wade through posts from the people who, as you say, are in love with the sound of their own voices.


Sailing information can be had in condensed, carefully edited, chatty/joke free form. They are called books, and can be bought here. This is a _community_ not a book. Find the definition of community here...

I'm pretty certain your wish to control everyone's behavior is not going to be granted. May I suggest books as a more compatible source of information.

Thanks.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Great. If I can squeeze a little more speed out my boat I get a free pass to be boorish.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Siamese, while it's unfortunate ya feel that way, you could always go over to cruisers and sailors for a drier discourse and maybe cruisinglogs for nothing but factual based posts. Sailnet is more of a community for some of us. There's nothing stopping you from joining in or leaving. Your choice.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Calm down Siamese,
It's alot like the library; there's stuff not worth the paper to either side of Shakespeare. If you edited out everything not authoritative or pleasing, you'd end up with only one editor's opinion. Your arguments for substantive posts is well received, but the flesh is weak. Sup upon what provides the best digestion and leave the scraps for the dog. Happy New Year to you!


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Siamese said:


> Great. If I can squeeze a little more speed out my boat I get a free pass to be boorish.


I'll bet ya just LOVED the Fight Club thread.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

After reading a number of posts I am sure that this site contains many accomplished individuals who want to learn more about a subject they love (sailing).

I am confidant that I lose nothing by ignoring posts that are more aggressive, than friendly, more exclusive than inclusive.

No one I know is the sole repository of the sum total of all the worlds knowledge. If someone's position is that knowledge gives them power, or makes them better than the rest of us...A prudent sailor needs to be skeptical about anything they might say.

...Happy New Year!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Siamese, its carbon fiber, and you can blow me.....


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Happy New Year to you all.

I read a topic if it interest me. I post in a thread if I think I have something to say. I'm always looking to learn more in everything I do, not just sailing. Sometimes ya have to dig through mud to find Diamonds.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Dunlookn said:


> . If someone's position is that knowledge gives them power, or makes them better than the rest of us...A prudent sailor needs to be skeptical about anything they might say.!


I'm not sure your perception applies here but you're welcome to it.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Do you really think I care about what Siamese or Dunlookn or any other person says here with the offensive tone?? Do you really think I lose my sleep?? I don't. 

These guys come and go...they'te the Knotalouds of the forums...sitting in their humid basements, clicking the bad rep button, from the bravery of being out of range...

Tell me guys what have you done recentely to help here?? other than your pittifull sarcasm filled posts??

There is the ignore button, its free...use it, I have...used it for you and many others that send me mail daily with same type of remarks....



I tell you...

Zero...


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

That's what we're talking about. Arrogant and unable to back away from the keyboard.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Siamese,
Please feel free to go elsewhere, we'd probably all appreciate it. Merry Christmas and happy New year.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Siamese, I don't think you get it. Alex has graced the board with lots of knowledge and content. He also has visited or been visited and sailed with forum members both here and in Europe. He has made many friends and a few enemies here and treats this place like a local Pub, as we all do at times. Are you feeling left out perchance?


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

You have to Try to get to know people before judging.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Siamese said:


> That's what we're talking about. Arrogant and unable to back away from the keyboard.


And whom, may I be allowed to ask, are you to call me arrogant?

Are you the forum "moral ethics police"??

Do you know me?? Did you go sailing with me? Have we met in person?

Not as far as I recall, but I have met many people in my life....

I don't think we have sailed together...

Did I attack you personally? Did I stir your nerves?? are you upset?


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## Sasha_V (Feb 28, 2004)

Hi. I just bought an old plywood Thunderbird. It was really cheap! There is some rot in the lower hull around the keel, you can tell by the weeping rust stains from the keel join and bolts, and one of the chines is delaminating a bit, well, okay, badly. The rudder is mostly okay, though it flops around a bit as the bolt holes have all become stretched. I think this is agood thing as it acts like shock absorber when the waves hit it, so I do nto think I need to fix that. Mostly I think it just needs a good thick coat of paint. Good paint keeps the water out, doesn't it?

The deck hardware is not great, and is pretty old. I think most of the clutches have blown as there are cleats nailed behind each one to actually tie halyards to....I think this is old timey and romantic!

The motor is a 12 year old 4hp johnston 2 stroke that was last serviced only six years ago...Bargain!

Anyway. I got the boat really cheap and since I once rented a canoe to paddle around the lake at the local park I feel I have good qualifications for skippering and navigating the Thunderbird.

My plan is to pick it up form the sellers marina on Sunday and just load it up with canned soup, salt crackers (very old timey sailing!) and coca coala and sail straight towards the heads and out of the harbour. I hope the sails are okay, I forgot to look at them when I was checking out the boat!

Anyway, I figure head straight out and across Bass straight (this seems a good time of the year for it, since all the yacht races across are happening around now). Stop in Hobart to re-stock food and buy anything I might need like some electrical tape or other tools I might need and then set off south again and live my dream of circumnavigating Antarctica!!!! I fgure if I just sail dead south from Tassie and then turn right when I see land and always keep it off my left side until I have gone all the way around I should be fine!

I don't have a radio on board, and I guess my cell phone will not work all the time, so I might be out of touch for a while....But I will be sure to post here when I get back. See you guys soon!


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Nice joke. If not, where do I send the flowers?


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Sasha, Defender has a bit of sailing hardware on clearance, such as 4 inch cleats for $1.00. Give it a look.

www.defender.com


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## Sasha_V (Feb 28, 2004)

Siamese said:


> Great. If I can squeeze a little more speed out my boat I get a free pass to be boorish.


Alex's pass to be boorish was not free...he has earned it at least twice over. Having a faster boat then you had nothing to do with it.

However, if you do manage to squeeze some more speed out fo your boat. and you document how you achieved it, and write some useful and helpful articles on HOW and post them here, and be ready to answer reams of ineveitable questions about your methods and how others might achieve them with their boat, even though they are different brands that you may never have heard of let alone sailed aboard, and keep at it for a long time with generaly good spirit....THEN you may just about start paying off the creditdebt of sour attitude that you have brought with you while making zero contribution so far.

Just an opinion.

Sasha


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## Sasha_V (Feb 28, 2004)

It is a joke...sort of..

Someoen that asked me to help them buy his first boat just bought the boat that I specifically advised him not to buy, with problems not at all dis-similar to the one described.

Better yet, he rang and asked me to please skipper the delivery of it from the marina it is in now.

I am not going to sail it around the antarctic...but I have factored about 6-8hours for the delivery and there is a rough change forecast for the late evening that day....I just kind of get the feeling it is going to FEEL like the antarctic circumnavigation by the time we are done!


Sasha


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

The last time I did a delivery with a forecast like that, it turned into Force 11 nastiness. Watch your six.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

yes sasha, I got the joke, why I pointed out the $1.00 cleat.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

I had a couple look at one of my tubs as a first boat. 
this is a direct quote...

_"so, how big of an anchor does it have, i mean, will it stop it in time?"_

"Excuse me, what are you asking me"

"_Well, don't you drop the anchor over the side with a really big rope on it to stop it before it hits the dock?_"

you can't make this ****e up.

I don't know a heck of a lot, but I DO know what I DON'T know.

and If I was in some serious ****e, hard weather, rough conditions, boat going tits up, or I NEEDED someone, I want sailingdog, sasha, dad, cam, trueblue, christy, JeffH, Charlie, Val, and Giu (ok, those I left out, i didn't mean to, alright?) either on my frickin speed dial, or standing at the helm telling me to sit my dumb ass down so they can get me home safe and sound. Thats what I *know*.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Well, you left _me_ out, CP, but that's a good thing, cuz I'm in the same boat as you (if not worse). It'd be like the blind leading the blind 

Jim


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

I'm told that God looks out for the blind, crippled and crazy. 
Between us, we got it covered, wanna try to rent a plane for a day? 
What could go wrong, eh?


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Having crashed a small plane due to engine failure in vertical terrain once, let me tell ya, it's painful. Ya might pick something else.


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## I33 (Mar 5, 2007)

*How does the "ignore" work?*

Hey guys, not to hijack the thread, but if I put Dunlookin and Siamese on my "ignore" list, will this whole thread disappear?


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## swadiver (Jan 17, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> Siamese, its carbon fiber, and you can blow me.....


Sweet. Nice one, Gui....


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I33 said:


> Hey guys, not to hijack the thread, but if I put Dunlookin and Siamese on my "ignore" list, will this whole thread disappear?


No, only threads they start.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Actually, IIRC the threads they start won't disappear, but their initial post won't be readable... 

Siamese-

If you're so offended by this community, maybe it would be best if you left. Giulietta is a strange, but well respected and liked member here....and he has proven his worth to most of the people here. You have yet to do so... so if you can't contribute, please leave. 

Dunlookin-

Welcome to sailnet...and I hope you find some posts and advice of use here.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Common sense, an adventurous spirit and a will to do something different is all that is needed, Just look at www.bumfuzzle.com . I would not advise doing it that way but it shows it can and is being done.
I like a lot of people have had no formal training in sailing, having sailed on friends and family boats, I still don't know the correct names for systems and equipment. But I do have experience with over 30K miles under the keel and a lot single handed.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Just quickly jumping in here and reading things over...I am not going to do any moderating at the moment but let's cool the incivility...particularly SIAMESE. 

I also think some of you took Dunlookin's post as personal...but I did not read it that way. I'd cut him some slack unless he tells me I read him wrong.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Siamese said:


> And boy am I tired of you know who bragging about his boat and assuming everyone on the planet acknowledges it's the finest piece of fiberglass to ever hit saltwater. Not realizing, of course, that we're all in love with our own vessels but humble enough to keep our fingers off the keyboard until we have something to ask or something substantial to contribute.


Your bitterness is unbecoming.

You mistake passion for arrogance, and as for contributing, Alex has created several "beginner" level short videos...in a language not his own...for general instruction. I don't think he did this for self-aggrandizement, but because he wants people to enjoy sailing in the way in which he enjoys sailing, which is from a position of deep experience and an engineer's eye for the dynamic forces that affect a moving object in a salty fluid.

The man has sailed since childhood, and while I have sailed with him and never heard him say he was the best sailor in the world, he is certainly a very _good _sailor, and he is proud of his boat in the same way he would be proud of a clever child: he had a hand in its creation, and having stepped on it, and seen it in action, I would say he has every right to be proud of it. He's a good sailor, and his boat is an excellent sailing machine. If you don't want to hear about that as the price of learning from a person who actively races a 12 metre boat in the real, live ocean, then that is your choice, and, I might add, your loss.

"Common sense" is paradoxically not common. I have sailed with otherwise accomplished sailors who had, due to the absence of formal instruction, I suspect, appalling holes in their seamanship that manifested at awkward and occasionally dangerous times. I have seen the captain of S/V _Aquastar_, the first yacht to cross Hudson's Bay since Hudson, and the first Western yacht to visit the former Leningrad, hesitate like a novice approaching a dock with seven feet of depth, because he was afraid of running aground in sandy mud in an 18 tonne cutter!

We all have strengths and weaknesses, and by sharing them, we gain experience and I daresay, common sense. Alex and his family may visit me next summer, but he'll be crew on my boat, although I will certainly heed his advice...he can work the cunningham!

Are you objecting to style or content? Alex brings both, and if you ignore one because you object to the other, you only hurt yourself. The same could be said of many here: very few are broadly experienced, and those few are worth heeding if you wish to obtain anything of value from visiting this website.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

I agree with Siamese. Alex has contributed NOTHING to this forum. Except for the instructional videos. Otherwise he has contributed NOTHING to this forum. The bit on how to tame a rogue jib on a roller furler that has been disabled was very nice, but that was some time ago. Otherwise, I would like to remind everyone that Alex has contributed NOTHING to this forum. He emphatically pointed out to me the importance of tying in while single-handing in heavy airs -- and quite rudely, I might add; although he did follow up with a nice private message that more delicately drove home his point -- but I chose to take his emphasis for rudeness. Why? Because he's obviously a horrible person who, when you really think about it, doesn't love what we all love, which is the sea and sailing upon it. I guess what I mean to say is this: what has that rude Portugese bastard done for me lately? The answer is: very little. Is it too much to ask him to kiss my sweet, suculent white ass every time we converse online? I think not.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

the smug baby.


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## proflyer (Aug 13, 2007)

As a newer member I have sat back and read a lot of posts. I would very much like to be able to meet Alex and learn from him. I appreciate his efforts in making videos to help others. I am booked for a month in Malaga and it's a pity that it is so far from Estoril as I would love to see that boat as well.

John


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Valiente,
Well put! Thanks for that.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Anyway, I am almost signing off, till next year, so be safe, and please, first know your limits, and learn to walk before you start runing....does't hurt so much when you fall and we don't have to stop the race to pick you up....[/QUOTE]

What the hell? You don't like how someone sails his boat or when he sails so you take your toys and go home?

And really if you want to air something out with this drama you should point out exactly who your referring to. Sounds like your just pissing other people off that your probalbly not referring to, but they think you are.

Thanks for the vids anyway and fair winds to ya.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Time to weigh in again, here's the world as I see it. I've been on this site for a year and a half and have learned an awful lot from many posters, thanks all. But I have learned the most from two posters, Giu and SD. I can only imagine the time and effort they invest to share their knowledge with us less knowledgeable sailors. Many many thanks. And when they are not sharing that knowledge they really make me laugh. That's one of the great things I like about this site.
I can't remember a thing I've learned from Siamese or Dunlookn other than they express the same arrogance they are comlaining about. For a newbie to come onto this site and tell others to leave because they don't like thier posts is beyond me. If they read the responses to their posts I would encourage them to both take their own advice.


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## theartfuldodger (Sep 4, 2006)

myself I must say that on the contrary, I see that it is much more experinced sailors making the majority of dump moves, just check out all the last years rescues, where as I've talked to a lot of boats stopping here in Newfoundland on their way some where far and am impressed with there gear and their readiness, but mind you these persons are mostly all from Europe, and Eastern Canada


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## Robby Barlow (Apr 23, 2006)

Well spoken T.

Not much more can be added, but although I don't personally know Giu, I don't think he wanted, in this case at least, to insult anybody in particular. Normally he's quite precise and names that person when he wants to do that.  
So if anybody does feel he was insulted it's probably because it was he who made a fool of himself at the docks/anchorage/maneuver or on this forum last time out. And in mho they should either laugh and learn or shut up & duck off.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

If there is one thing certain in this world, it is that there will always be someone to complain .... about anything.

Being, in many respects, the type of sailor Alex was writing about, I still did not take his words personally. Whether it is from knowing him or my temperment, or both, I can't say. What I can say, is that I have yet to read a post of his that is deliberately belittling of a fellow sailor, unless that person has given him cause to reply in that manner. And his efforts to not only provide instructions, but drawings and other visual aids in helping to answer a question, speak not to arrogance, but to helpfulness.

Life, like sailing, is an ongoing learning experience and you have to be prepared to accept the bad with the good, or you learn nothing of value. And though I'd just as soon those with nothing positive to contribute would stay silent, it's all part of the foundation on which to evaluate what they say.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

And one other thing you may want to keep in mind.

The reputation you establish by your postings goes a long way in determining how much help you recieve when you need it. For myself, when I see a thread by "JoeWhiner", I quite often don't even bother to read it, much less respond. You get out of life, what you put in to it.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

While there have been a lot of rescues, I wouldn't say that it is the experienced sailors making the majority of them. Just because you've been sailing for 30 years doesn't necessarily make you an experienced sailor, if all 30 years are of basic lake sailing, with no real experience in bluewater passages, weather forecasting, voyage planning...

One of the other posters wrote in another thread, 20 years of experience is great as long as it isn't the first year repeated 20 times over... or something to that effect.

For instance, one of the most notable recent rescues, from last year, not this... was Ken Barnes... The man did not know how to set his autopilot instinctively, and didn't appear, at least from what I've read, to have taken any "warm up" cruises on his boat before venturing to attempt rounding Cape Horn. He had his mainsail jam in the sail track IIRC, which is a problem he should have found during a shakedown cruise, rather than in the southern Pacific.

IMHO, his boat was over-equipped with electronics and under-equipped with proper preparation. He had 14 batteries in his house bank, and they apparently weren't really properly stowed-since the hatches on his boat were bashed out during a the knockdown-most likely from the batteries bouncing around the interior of the boat. I could invert my boat, and the batteries wouldn't move-not an inch.

The French rower who was twice rescued earlier this year, from not too far from where i normally sail, was another example of poor preparation. The poor bastage designed his own boat, and it leaked like a sieve on his first attempt... On his second attempt, he ended up in the teeth of the remains of a hurricane IIRC. Poor planning and preparation both times... ended up costing the coasties a good chunk of time and money.

Compare those to Donna Lange or Maude Fontenoy... both of whom completed solo circumnavigations.

Donna Lange was in a Southern Cross 28....and had done many sails to prepare herself for the much more difficult circumnavigation she made. In fact, she was caught by the same storm system that knocked down Ken Barnes, and IIRC her boat was one of the ones that responded to his distress calls, if only via radio.

Maude Fontenoy, a French rower, completed her circumnavigation after being dismasted 200 nm from her final landfall. Did she call for help...no, she contacted her land crew and basically said, "I'm gonna be late, got to jury rig a replacement mast." and then sailed the 200 nm under jury-rig.

IMHO, experience isn't best counted in years or distances...but in actual varied experiences. A good friend of mine is quite possibly one of the best sailors I know...and has delivered many sailboats as well as sailed his own boat under varied conditions and distances. In the first seven months he owned his new to him boat, he has put well over 1500 nm under the keel of it...and that was while he was still working a day job.



theartfuldodger said:


> myself I must say that on the contrary, I see that it is much more experinced sailors making the majority of dump moves, just check out all the last years rescues, where as I've talked to a lot of boats stopping here in Newfoundland on their way some where far and am impressed with there gear and their readiness, but mind you these persons are mostly all from Europe, and Eastern Canada


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

* What the hell? You don't like how someone sails his boat or when he sails so you take your toys and go home? *

* Dihydro*..."next year" is in a few days and Giulietta is going on vacation till then and will be out of touch. Suggest you spend a bit more time here understanding what is really going on and being said before jumping on someone.

*Dawg/ArtfulDodger*...I DO think that the vast majority of rescues are of people with quite a number of years of sailing experience...there are not too many KenBarnes out there...but to Dawg's point, many of the "experienced" have limited offshore miles OR have used exceedingly poor judgment in preparation and planning. I don't know if it is arrogance, or lack of funds to properly prepare, or just a mis-evaluation of the risks involved but it seems to me that most of the rescues I've seen over the last couple of years could have been easily prevented by actions taken well before the onset of disaster.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

You forgot to include the "sarcasm" tags. 


sailhog said:


> I agree with Siamese. Alex has contributed NOTHING to this forum. Except for the instructional videos. Otherwise he has contributed NOTHING to this forum. The bit on how to tame a rogue jib on a roller furler that has been disabled was very nice, but that was some time ago. Otherwise, I would like to remind everyone that Alex has contributed NOTHING to this forum. He emphatically pointed out to me the importance of tying in while single-handing in heavy airs -- and quite rudely, I might add; although he did follow up with a nice private message that more delicately drove home his point -- but I chose to take his emphasis for rudeness. Why? Because he's obviously a horrible person who, when you really think about it, doesn't love what we all love, which is the sea and sailing upon it. I guess what I mean to say is this: what has that rude Portugese bastard done for me lately? The answer is: very little. Is it too much to ask him to kiss my sweet, suculent white ass every time we converse online? I think not.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Dihydro77 said:


> [Alex had written, in part]
> 
> 
> > Anyway, I am almost signing off, till next year, so be safe, and please, first know your limits, and learn to walk before you start runing....does't hurt so much when you fall and we don't have to stop the race to pick you up....
> ...


Um, "next year" was a whoppin' three (3) days away when Alex wrote that. And, hope you're sitting down for this, some people have a life outside Sailnet! Yes, really!

Jim


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> You forgot to include the "sarcasm" tags.


Oh, I suspect all but about two or three here figured it out pretty quickly 

Jim


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Siamese and one or two others might have needed the tags though... 


SEMIJim said:


> Oh, I suspect all but about two or three here figured it out pretty quickly
> 
> Jim


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

This thread cracks me up. I have been lurking here for quite a while - because i have developed a total fascination for everything about sailing. I think I can learn something from almost anybody, even the a-holes - they too can be very educational. I live on a big lake (Cayuga in NY) and have owned a motorboat and a laser and a hobie for years. Last year I got the bug to go on bigger boats in bigger water so I went and took all the ASA classes down on the Chesapeake. Maybe I will get to the islands someday but Lake Ontario is pretty close by if I want something bigger. Now that it is not sailing weather I am feeding my new obsession with sailnet. You know what? I learn something useful from ALL of it. I am no expert by any means but probably the best teacher I have had was a dinghy on the lake - instant response to whatever I do and serious mistakes are rewarded with a swim. But the ASA lessons on keel boats helped a lot too - the instructors all knew one hell of a lot about sailboats and were willing to answer any question I could imagine. Sailnet is good too - Youcan get at least 5 answers to any question including people who seem not to have any idea what they are talking about (Yes even a relative novice like me can tell sometimes) It is fun watching people get all excited about something ridiculous somebody said. Makes me laugh and I try to picture them in the middle of my lake when the wind goes dead and the only motor on the boat is a paddle. THAT teaches patience better than anything. And the times when the wind suddenly goes from zero to 40 in 5 minutes? (it does that sometimes in the summer). That is also a learning experience but of another kind. Both kinds of learning are good to be a happy camper on the water. And that is my goal - to achieve a sort of zen attitude out there becoming one with the wind and water gods. And to me it is very important to know when to just shut up and listen to them. They speak in all kinds of ways you wouldnt expect.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

camaraderie said:


> * What the hell? You don't like how someone sails his boat or when he sails so you take your toys and go home? *
> 
> Dihydro..."next year" is in a few days and Giulietta is going on vacation till then and will be out of touch. Suggest you spend a bit more time here understanding what is really going on and being said before jumping on someone.


I get your point regarding next year. It just seems he is flaming about some people on here without indicating who he is directing it to. Just some extra winter drama imo.

I get the message now that pretty much everyone is going to be like "this guy is the best" and whatnot so the rest of you guys can go F*&^ yourself.

"seems to be an enormous lack of COMMON SENSE here amidst some of our dear members??"

"besides they need to marry another more inteligent stronger human being, since you were a "bad horse" to bet on....."

These statements, although not directed to anyone but to "some of the members here" appears to be an attack and it seems the mods here dont really care about other members here, just a few. If someone is directing comments like these to members how helpful or useful is this? Your answer has already been mentioned by some. Go elsewhere if you dont like it. Nice.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I sailed with a coast guard licenced captain recently. Licencing does not make the sailor.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

sck5 said:


> *This thread cracks me up. I have been lurking here for quite a while.*


Nice post SCK, time for you to break out of the lurking and into participating.

*I think I can learn something from almost anybody, even the a-holes -*

How true.

*probably the best teacher I have had was a dinghy on the lake - instant response to whatever I do and serious mistakes are rewarded with a swim.*

I agree 100%, I learned on a Sunfish at the age of 12.

*Now that it is not sailing weather I am feeding my new obsession*

Me persoanally, I have sought professional help for my obsession, yes, I am one sick puppy.

*to achieve a sort of zen attitude out there becoming one with the wind and water gods.*

Wow, that is really deep, but for me that is what it is all about, using the wind to power your vessel from poin A to point B. What could be better.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Dihydro77 said:


> I get the message now that pretty much everyone is going to be like "this guy is the best" and whatnot..


Well, you know what? He _is_ "the best."

Not long ago I was trying to figure out the best way to upgrade our mainsheet blocks. I received a lot of input from a lot of people, but more from Alex than any other one individual. As luck would have it: Just as I was reaching a final decision, he went on vacation. Was going to be away from an Internet connection for a month. Oh noes!

Three days later he PM'd me and gave me his email address so he could help me finish-up. That's right: He hunted-down a 'net connection so he could PM me from Sailnet so I could email him so he could continue helping me out.

I don't know what _you'd_ call that, but _I_ call that "the best."



Dihydro77 said:


> so the rest of you guys can go F*&^ yourself.


No, not so much. More a case of Alex being well-known, liked and respected, and the people bashing him not known at all and bashing someone who's well-known, liked and respected.



Dihydro77 said:


> Your answer has already been mentioned by some. Go elsewhere if you dont like it. Nice.


A web forum is a sort of community. There are regulars. Some of those regulars are going to be very much liked and respected. When people the community doesn't know attack such regulars, it's _bound_ to go badly for the unknowns. This is true _even if the regular was in the wrong_. (Which I'm not suggesting was the case here.) Even if the regular being attacked is the local curmudgeon, perhaps not even particularly well-liked, the community members are likely to side with him. *This is normal human behaviour.*

Your on-line experience will be much enhanced, or at least not nearly so bumpy, if you understand this, and conduct yourself accordingly.

Alternatively, you can start your own web forums and try to fight human nature. Good luck with that .

Jim


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

*These statements, although not directed to anyone but to "some of the members here" appears to be an attack and it seems the mods here dont really care about other members here, just a few. If someone is directing comments like these to members how helpful or useful is this? Your answer has already been mentioned by some. Go elsewhere if you dont like it. Nice.

*First...the statements ARE an attack on idiots who take their boats out in conditions they are not prepared for without the proper safety equipment and risk the lives of others on board. It was a general attack not a personal one but I can think of several member over the last year or two that have done such things. Attacking stupid actions is NOT a personal attack. I just told someone that hanking a 700 pd. dinghy on the back of his 38' boat was stupid...along with abot 10 other members. That is caring about safety and good seamanship...not personal attack. 
Second...Alex uses hyperbole to make his points. Anyone who has followed this form knows that and knows exactly what to take seriously and what to ignore. His initial post here was both serious and full of hyperbole and we've had good discussion as a result. 
Finally...If you think I moderate unfairly...tough noogies. It's my unpaid job and I do the best I can but I'll be damned if I have to take any crap from you about my "unfairnness". Should you choose to leave of your own volition...unlike Giuletta...you won't be missed.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Dih,
Someday when you contribute as much as Giu has you'll be defended the way he has been. He's earned it! Until then I suggest you suck it up and start enjoying and learning from Sailnet and stop attacking the moderator.


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Hear hear Cam.


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## Jim H (Feb 18, 2006)

Hmmm. A point of clarification here. Are most of the responses here defending Giu personally, or his ideas or beliefs about mandatory licensing for sailors? I guess I see the two things as different. (I understand there was hyperbole in his first post, but his follow-ups seemed pretty clear on this issue.)

For the record, I have a ASA 104 cert and am working through the RYA certifications. I also lived in a state (Oregon) were there was a manadatory boating education card (but it wasn't much of a challenge). So, it's not that I'm against education and experience and common sense at all. 

However, it has also been my experience that not all great achievers (in sailing or in other endeavors) necessarily ran off to classrooms as the first steps in their learning curves. A month or two ago, it was amusing to read an account in a British sailing mag of a circumnavigator who had do to crash-course Yachtmaster certification before he could do his second circumnavigation (due to the desire to share the experience with kids during some legs of the new journey). Thus, maybe it was a good idea if he was going to be trusted with kids, but it's not like he wasn't a fine and accomplished sailor before he had the certification. 

I'd be interested in knowing whether the "group wisdom" on this site is now that mandatory education and licensing and testing for sailing is the way to go? 

Thanks!

Jim H


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

It would be nice if we could get a 1-800 number to call when someone on this forum hurts our feelings. Or better yet... Just think of how wonderful it would be if all 140,000 members could contact Cam and CD day or night and talk about how we're feeling deep down inside. It would great! I could curl up with my blanket, maybe have a cup of hot tea and just talk and talk and talk whenever I felt like it, and they would sit on the other end of the line, listening attentively, asking sensitive questions. But... I bet it won't happen. Unfortunately our moderators are two extremely lazy, self-absorbed bastards. It's people like me who have to suffer for their laziness.


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## Robby Barlow (Apr 23, 2006)

Sailhog have you tried Dial-a-Shrink yet ?


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

Oh lawdy!!! Who let the clowns out of the little car? Giu... don't sweat that guy. He obviously wears the big shoes... you know, the oversized red ones???

ok... back to non sailnet stuff. I've got a newyears day race to prep for!!!!! See you guys later.


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## Gryzio (Dec 13, 2007)

*Interesting Thread*

I not been here long. I may get a little wordy, sorry. 

First, I been sailing for many years. In that time I have learned; "there always something we can learn".

I keep reading over what Gui originally posted. I really not see why it a problem, unless I missed another thread somewhere, that he may be referring too.

I remember years ago, my nephew and myself where camping at a lake. There were two power boats off shore, "Two", no other boats in sight and they managed to run into each other! 

I told my nephew that was totally stupid, maybe I was wrong for judging harshly.  Luckily no one was hurt bad, one boat began to sink and one guy busted his nose.

I feel education is important in anything we do. True, a paper may not necessarily prove we are educated, but, it shows me a concern to try and continuing learning more.

Many U.S.A. States now have a mandatory "Boating Safety Course" for people born after a certain date (1980's?). I was not required to take this. Many of the Teenagers would "grump" about it. So, I took the course to show them I did not die learning something. True, it was a Basic and really not teach me anything I not already know (it did act as a refresher). But, I enjoyed the experience and hoped it would set an example for those who were required to take the course. 

I know a guy that teach sailing, when he first started teaching, he just take people out and teach. He knew what he was doing, but, in time felt being Certified by ASA to teach made for a better well rounded instruction that followed a certain formal approach (I could learn from him and go somewhere else and learn a consistent form of instruction from an ASA instructor).

In, other words, it was not like I go somewhere else and be saying; "John Doe, said this was best" or "This how I was showed and it different"! Hope people see what I try to say. 

I respect the individual views of others and take it as a learning experience. One thing I have learned, when a person make a profound statement as Gui did, those who feel it is directed at them, may need to learn from that statement. We can feel offended when we know a statement is true of ourselves. Like the old saying; "The truth hurts". 

Myself, I did not feel Gui directed his statement at me as an individual, "But" I took it as "food for thought". I questioned my abilities and how others may view my sailing habits.

Do I represent to a younger generation a "know-it-all" or a person who is willing to continue learning?

When an unlearned person steps onto my boat to begin a new adventure. I gain their confidence first by teaching "Safety" and not how I know everything. I show them I have a willingness to continue learning. 

Like the two boats I mentioned above. They were not required to take a boating safety course. After their show, I did question would it have helped them. Maybe, maybe not. 

I hope this helps, as the thread seemed to become very defensive and not productive. It may have been best to approach from the Pro and Con of what was said (made into a productive discussion). Maybe I best said nothing. But, I love sailing and people. I do my best to have a respect and concern for both.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailhog said:


> It would be nice if we could get a 1-800 number to call when someone on this forum hurts our feelings. Or better yet... Just think of how wonderful it would be if all 140,000 members could contact Cam and CD day or night and talk about how we're feeling deep down inside. It would great! I could curl up with my blanket, maybe have a cup of hot tea and just talk and talk and talk whenever I felt like it, and they would sit on the other end of the line, listening attentively, asking sensitive questions. But... I bet it won't happen. Unfortunately our moderators are two extremely lazy, self-absorbed bastards. It's people like me who have to suffer for their laziness.


**********************
LMAO


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## HGSail (Jan 21, 2006)

OH MY GOD!!!

Can you people hear yourselfs? Just remember this, And this goes for everybody including myself.......... Opinions are like A**holes, Everybody has one and they all STINK.
I once had a woodshop teacher that told me the way that I was working on the Lathe was wrong and proceeded too tell me how to do it correctly. When I tried to do it his way I ruined my project. What he could not understand was that I had developed my own style. My style is that I will take little bits and pieces of what I like about the way other people do things and incorperate them into my own. He thought that I should be doing it his way because in his mind it was the only way.
Sailing is about improvising, Being able to look outside the book (box) and being able to deal with the situation at hand. The book is fixed in writing, But the world (water) around us is in constant change. 
Although there is a certain arogant sound to Gui's writing, I won't judge him on it because I can't hear the tone of his voice or look into his face while he is speaking. As for this is a huge part of comunication.
As for the people who just "chime in once in a while and are not active all the time on this site" This does not mean that our opinions are not valid or we do not know what we are doing. And being a newbee to the site does not mean we do not know as much about a certain subject or about sailing in general.

For me I am eather working or at the boat, So that leaves little time for socializing on the net and sharing my overabundant wealth of opinions.

P.S. Knowlage comes in all forms Good and Bad.
Listen, Learn, Move on


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I may be way off base. But this thread and what was said, causing me first to say what I said, isn't about sailing at all. It is really about a personal attack.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

The original post, raised a valid question. One that has gone basically undiscussed becomes some members, for whatever reason, find it more enjoyable to diss the messenger, rather than discuss his message.

That this benefits no one, but those individuals sense of empowerment, as arbitrators of what is fit for discussion, seems to have totally escaped their notice, as they hurl cries of arrogance, to those who know where the true arrogance lies.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If you read Giu's original post... *it is not an attack on anybody in particular, but an observation that some of the people who have posted here as well as on other sailing forums are good candidates for a Darwin Award. *

While I am not in favor of licensing boating here in the United States, I am fully in favor of getting clueless idiots off the water... and it doesn't much matter to me if the clueless idiots are in power boats, row boats or sailboats. *There are quite a few posts here on sailnet that really make me question whether the person posting has even the tiniest bit of common sense, intelligence or anything resembling a brain. *

One recent thread is asking about whether a 700 lb. rigid inflatable dinghy with a console steering setup is too heavy to hang off the stern dinghy davits of a 38' boat. Anyone with any common sense would be probably understand that hanging 1000 lbs. or more of the davits, dinghy and associated gear off the very stern of a boat is probably not a wise idea. Not only does it make the boat exceptionally stern heavy, since it is all the way as far aft...in fact probably hanging over the stern of the boat aft... as you can get.

Then, they want to add 350-400' of chain to the bow and add batteries under the v-berth to "balance" the boat out. Last I checked, adding 2000 lbs. of crap to a boat wasn't all that great an idea.... and adding it to the bow and stern is going to cause the boat to hobbyhorse in any kind of seas...making the boat very difficult to handle safely. Then, even though almost every post responding to them says that this is basically a horrible idea...they say... _"Well, I think I'll do it anyways... because I only sail on a lake, how dangerous can it be... "_ My guess is that any lake that you can take a 38' sailboat on a week long cruise for is large enough to have some seriously nasty weather.

It ain't rocket science... but the people Giu is talking about have to stop using their stomach windows and stop breathing through their belly buttons.


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## MoonSailer (Jun 1, 2007)

Freedom is a horrible thing!!!! Being able to live your own life without government supervision scares the hell out of some people. But sailing is one of the safest activities that a human can do. Much safer than taking a walk. Incredibly safer than riding a bicycle. IMHO free people usually act in their own best interest. Sure people make mistakes but most aren't life threatening. Freedom is a great thing being able to live my life without excessive government supervision. Wow freedom breeds a sense of being responsible for my own actions a sense of independence...kind of like being an adult instead of a perpetual child. Yep I like freedom.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

MoonSailer said:


> Freedom is a horrible thing!!!! Being able to live your own life without government supervision scares the hell out of some people. But sailing is one of the safest activities that a human can do. Much safer than taking a walk. Incredibly safer than riding a bicycle. IMHO free people usually act in their own best interest. Sure people make mistakes but most aren't life threatening. Freedom is a great thing being able to live my life without excessive government supervision. Wow freedom breeds a sense of being responsible for my own actions a sense of independence...kind of like being an adult instead of a perpetual child. Yep I like freedom.


Moonsailor, you starting New years celebrating a little early ? Sailing is safer then walking, riding a bike ? Please, please show me those statistics. Freedom is a perceived notion and we are less free then we were 10 years ago


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Jim H said:


> I'd be interested in knowing whether the "group wisdom" on this site is now that mandatory education and licensing and testing for sailing is the way to go?


Even a 30 foot cruiser is more massive than any car, and we require licences to drive cars whether we drive then at boat speeds or highway speeds. Licensing is NOT a guarantee of skills, but it does provide at least a rudimentary baseline against which to judge the competence of individual sailors (who are legally in charge of boats in a manner that far exceeds the driver of a car, for instance...when was the last time you had to retrieve a passenger who fell out of your car back INTO your car, without completely stopping? ), but it is also an opportunity for experienced sailors to mend holes in their skill set.

I have attended comprehensive sail training courses in which I've seen some pretty old sailors, but they weren't too old to learn, and some of them mentioned that while there was little they didn't know, they were able to "consolidate and refresh" that knowledge through the licensing process.

I support licensing, because it establishes a start line (if not a particularly ambitious one) for safer boating, and it also informs boaters of their rights, their responsibilities and their knowledge of the laws in place when they go out boating.

Police here have started to do spot checks on boaters for drinking while sailing or (particularly) power boating. I support this for exactly the same reasons I wouldn't want to meet a truck driven by a drunk on the highway.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

In regards to the issue of experience vs training. I've always believed that:

*Practice makes habit, only perfect practice makes perfect.*

If you practice the same bad habits over and over you will just ingrain them. I tied my shoes in granny knots the first 40 years of my life till one day I noticed it and tried a square knot. OMG, shoes don't come untied if you do it that way!! My son ties square knots because he was taught the right way, unlike me. I looked at my dad's shoes the other day, sure enough granny knots. So my Dad's 70+ years of experience is worse than my son's 6 months worth.

Practice is overrated. Proper *instruction* is underrated. _(notice I didn't say proper licensing)_


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A very good point... practicing the wrong way to do something over and over again is probably not a very good idea, yet this is what many people do.


tenuki said:


> In regards to the issue of experience vs training. I've always believed that:
> 
> *Practice makes habit, only perfect practice makes perfect.*
> 
> If you practice the same bad habits over and over you will just ingrain them. I tied my shoes in granny knots the first 40 years of my life till one day I noticed it and tried a square knot. OMG, shoes don't come untied if you do it that way!! My son ties square knots because he was taught the right way, unlike me. I looked at my dad's shoes the other day, sure enough granny knots. Practice is overrated. Proper instruction is underrated.


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## tonic (Jan 22, 2007)

tenuki said:


> In regards to the issue of experience vs training. I've always believed that:
> 
> *Practice makes habit, only perfect practice makes perfect.*
> 
> ...


You are good.


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## MoonSailer (Jun 1, 2007)

A lot of new regulations will stop a lot of people from getting into boating. Who wants to invest a lot of time and money into an activity that you don't even know if you like??? Also learning by doing is something of an adventure. Being taught is like going to school. Some people like to be told what to do and others like to experiment and explore a new activity. I don't think that I would have ever got into sailing if I had to go to school first and then find out if I liked sailing. Too many rules and regulations in everyday life why would anyone want to learn more rules and regulations???? After I taught myself how to sail my sunfish I bought some books. But the pure fun of sailing is what inspired me to read and study. If I had to read and study before I knew the pleasure of sailing I doubt that I would have ever bought the sunfish. Too many people want to take away our freedoms. You should have a right to choose to go to school or not. Most free people act in their own best interests. Any rational person will want to learn the laws and how to safely operate their boat. But putting up hurdles to boat ownership will hurt the sport. BTW you can go out and buy a 40' motor home and drive it down the interstate at 70 mph without any special license or certifications.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

*BTW you can go out and buy a 40' motor home and drive it down the interstate at 70 mph without any special license or certifications.

*I'm counting on that! (g)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I figure having water 20' deep all around me will keep me safe from Cam's lack of driving ability. 


camaraderie said:


> *BTW you can go out and buy a 40' motor home and drive it down the interstate at 70 mph without any special license or certifications.
> 
> *I'm counting on that! (g)


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

MoonSailer said:


> A lot of new regulations will stop a lot of people from getting into boating.


Excellent! Especially since it will be the people who can't be bothered by learning pesky little things like right of way rules, etc.



MoonSailer said:


> After I taught myself how to sail my sunfish I bought some books. But the pure fun of sailing is what inspired me to read and study. If I had to read and study before I knew the pleasure of sailing I doubt that I would have ever bought the sunfish.


I really doubt owning or sailing a sunfish will ever require a license. Try making a more reasoned argument.



MoonSailer said:


> BTW you can go out and buy a 40' motor home and drive it down the interstate at 70 mph without any special license or certifications.


Yes, another really bad idea. Not sure how this proves whatever point you were trying to make besides 'don't regulate me I don't like it.'



MoonSailer said:


> Most free people act in their own best interests. Any rational person will want to learn the laws and how to safely operate their boat.


This is key. Not everyone is rational, in fact, most people aren't. Hence things like traffic laws, automobile licensing, etc. How many old blind people do you think there would be on the road without the eyesight test requirement for licensing? How many 12 year olds?

Your right to freedom stops when it starts impacting other people's rights and safety. If you don't agree with that you don't belong in society. But of course you already know that....


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> I figure having water 20' deep all around me will keep me safe from Cam's lack of driving ability.


You're absolutely confident 20 feet (9-1/2 meters) is sufficient? 

Jim


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Since the nearest road capable of handling an RV that big is over three miles away... yes... or at least until Cam finds an amphibious RV to buy.


SEMIJim said:


> You're absolutely confident 20 feet (9-1/2 meters) is sufficient?
> 
> Jim


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## MoonSailer (Jun 1, 2007)

Tenuki do you own a sailing school?? Are you a sailing instructor???? 

I don't understand the push for more laws and less freedom. Sailing is not particularly dangerous actually it is realtively safe. Boating in genral is safe and fatalities are going down. Most accidents involve power boaters. IMHO ignorance is not the problem. Attitude is the problem. Just like on the highways most people know the rules but don't follow the rules. Almost daily I see rear end accidents on my commute to work. People tailgate and speed both against the law and all motorists know not to tailgate or speed. 
The example of the motor home is from me seeing all of the snowbirds migrating to and from Florida on I-65. I have actually seen a large motor home towing a SUV with a motoboat on the SUV'strailer hitch. Driven by a man who looked very old from Michigan. Oh he was doing almost 80 mph. I can't imagine anyone doing anything on a sailboat with as much potential danger!!! More laws don't make people act responsible. Freedom tends to make people act responsiblly. Once someone buys a boat and goes sailing they will very quickly learn the ropes IMHO forcing a license will do little to improve safety. BTW Alabama has a boat license requirement. Me my wife and two of our kids took a power squadron boating safety course soon after we married. No law made us!!!!! I have a copy of Chapman's piloting..no law made me buy and more importantly read the book. Most people act responsibly most of the time. The marine police will arrest andor fine someone who acts too irresponsibly. But there will always be idiots....no law will change that.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I'm coming for that pram with training wheels dawg!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

ROFLMAO.... I'm pretty sure that I can go faster than that monstrosity...


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> I'm coming for that pram with training wheels dawg!


Ruh rohhh! Looks like no water depth is safe now, dawg 

Hey, Cam, there's a guy over in G&M that could use your input, I think . D'ya s'pose ya could hang a 300 lb. dinghy off the back of it? 

Jim


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I have magnetic limpet mines for just such an occasion.


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

i'm glad that simmered down. i know i'm naive about this stuff, but i'm still amazed at how some folks talk online to each other in a way that they wouldn't face to face. most times people try to dissipate conflict rather than throwing insults at each other. 

alex's post was pretty intense, but i think he was still angry that he lost some rep points when he told me to smarten up on another post. still, when you troll the message from the bombast what he was saying is that he thinks too many people (including me) are taking inordinate risks with themselves, their loved ones and their boats.
while he may be right, tracy just took the power squadron course, and learned that 70% of boating accidents involve power boats, young people and alcohol. no surprise there.

i have never experienced a nerve-wracking interaction with a sailboat, but many with power boats. the skill required to sail tends to weed out the worst of the fools (alex's assertion aside), and most sailors i've seen sailing tend to be cautious and reasonably careful, at least compared to the powerboat crowd. not many of us have illusions about powering our way through anything.

but it is a continuum, an not all of us have the best and latest safety gear, nor does everyone practice MOB drills as they should. and maybe some of us go out when we should stay at home and dream. 
ultimately, right or wrong, we have to make our own choices and accept the consequences for those choices. and those watching from the sidelines need to have some respect for those doing things the best they know how.
i will make mistakes and so will everyone else on this forum, and i don't know of any member who has died trying. 
having said that i believe there is great value in reminding people to learn (and learn from the best, which seems to be the general opinion here, and why i'm taking alex's words very seriously), train. read, and practice, remembering that safety has to always be the first and last rule, even when testing ourselves.


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## tonic (Jan 22, 2007)

Moonsailer you obviously have common sense, have taken the right steps. Live and learn within your boundries and ventured out to expand them in a safe and knowledgable way. Unfortunatly in my opinion most people don't seem to have it, common sense. We do, I'm sure most of the locals here do, but in general no. Sad extremly, reality yes. I don't know if it's lack of common sense or lack of respect for other's in general. They should go hand and hand saddly they don't. PEACE


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

MoonSailer said:


> Tenuki do you own a sailing school?? Are you a sailing instructor????


No and No. What is your point? If I did would it make my point any less valid? There are good and better ways to do things. Learning from other people's experience has great value. I'm suggesting you get good _instruction_, not a certificate or schooling.



MoonSailer said:


> The marine police will arrest andor fine someone who acts too irresponsibly. But there will always be idiots....no law will change that.


Police can't arrest anyone unless there are _laws_. You do understand how the rule of law works, right? Your primary point seems to be that people don't follow laws so why make them. What a moronic argument, really.

I remember reading a post you made about how annoyed you were that fishermen didn't follow the rules about dive flags. Hmnnn, what a mixed point of view you seem to have.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> I'm coming for that pram with training wheels dawg!


ROFLMAO. I just might need to get radar, that is just scary.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

flyingwelshman said:


> think that you might be referring to me - at least partially.
> 
> I want to say that I do not think of myself as suicidal. I do not want to harm others. I think I have (and use) common sense.
> 
> ...


I think it is a very good post, and some of the rest of you who spoke of "common sense" those comments are right on also. A lot of time the best way to go through life is with your eyes and ears open and your mouth closed (except for questions of course) Alex, keep up your fine work with your _special_ brand of humor. Remember, a professional pilot (soldier,sailor etc) is always training. And for the rest of you (2)....

Jerry


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

HoffaLives said:


> ultimately, right or wrong, we have to make our own choices and accept the consequences for those choices. and those watching from the sidelines need to have some respect for those doing things the best they know how.


Uh, dude, you posted your experience on an internet sailing forum. If you didn't want our comments, what did you want? A virtual cookie?


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

flyingwelshman said:


> think that you might be referring to me - at least partially.
> 
> I want to say that I do not think of myself as suicidal. I do not want to harm others. I think I have (and use) common sense.
> 
> ...


The problem with this argument is that it assumes you either learn by 'doing' or learn by some mysterious 'not doing' sailing instruction. This is a common logical fallacy called the 'false dilemma'. ie, you can only choose one thing or the other. Trust me, if you take a good sailing course you are 'doing' the whole darn time as the 'instruction'.

I think it boils down to the idea that you get out of life exactly how you approach it. If you don't think anyone can teach you anything, they can't.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

tenuki, I think you two are in heated agreement. I do agree with what you said however I think he meant that when there is no instructor present, go forth and experiment, have fun and push your envelope. Instruction is a wonderful thing and having your 1st student solowhile watching behind the corner of the hanger can be a bit nerve wracking (I have soloed several) you have to kick them out of the nest to learn on their own. Great avatar by the way.

Jerry


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I'm naming the RV "Jaws" and painting it like Alex's keel. Dah-dun, Dah-dun,Dah-dun,Dah-dun,Dah-dun,Dah-dun,Dah-dun,Dah-dun....I may not catch the Dawg...but CD is meat!! (g)


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## bakerha51 (Nov 22, 2007)

Who would have ever guessed that a statement like - 'All you idiots - go slowly bleed to death somewhere' - would create this much attention - and wasted time - Man you guys need another hobby! 
What ASA rating was Columbus anyway?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Baker,
We're just temporarily off our meds.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

ROFLMAO... Sounds good to me...


camaraderie said:


> I'm naming the RV "Jaws" and painting it like Alex's keel. Dah-dun, Dah-dun,Dah-dun,Dah-dun,Dah-dun,Dah-dun,Dah-dun,Dah-dun....I may not catch the Dawg...but CD is meat!! (g)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

SD, 
That's a new one on me. Translate please.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Rolling On Floor Laughing My Ass Off.


teshannon said:


> SD,
> That's a new one on me. Translate please.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

bakerha51 said:


> Who would have ever guessed that a statement like - 'All you idiots - go slowly bleed to death somewhere' - would create this much attention - and wasted time - Man you guys need another hobby!


Ha! I'm in south-east Michigan. Our boat's been on the hard for two months. Ain't much else to do but hang out here and victimize the careless with the results of a form of cabin fever particular to sailors deprived of, well, sailing 

I s'pose I could be studying knots (the rope kind) and splicing and the like (that was the plan), but that requires rope and tools and such, and, well, I'm kinda financially embarrassed atm. Maybe next month...

Jim


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

MoonSailer said:


> Too many rules and regulations in everyday life why would anyone want to learn more rules and regulations???? Too many people want to take away our freedoms. Any rational person will want to learn the laws and how to safely operate their boat.


I would like to see some kind of license that would just test the rules of the road. Some people have no knowledge of them and think they are free to do as they please.
Just something, you could pick up a flyer and read it and then take the test.
Or as Captain Ron said "Don't worry boss, They'll get out of our way."


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> *BTW you can go out and buy a 40' motor home and drive it down the interstate at 70 mph without any special license or certifications.
> 
> *I'm counting on that! (g)


I shall start an instuctional thread for CAM and his ship of the black top, please feel free to add photos and advice.


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## MoonSailer (Jun 1, 2007)

I really do think that people should learn how to sail and boat safely. I just don't like the heavy hand of government intruding into every aspect of american life. Another problem is that sailing instruction is not always available and affordable. I bought my sunfish and trailer for $400 while I was an airman in the USAF. I could barely afford the boat much less afford to pay for instruction. I am glad that I had the freedom to teach myself how to sail. Really sailing a sunfish is so easy that it is almost idiot proof. By the time I moved up to a 22' swing keel I knew all of the basics and except for some groundings was uneventful. Even the groundings were uneventful with the swing keel hitting bottom and then having to crank it up a bit. All of these groundings occured when we knew we were in shallow water but were trying to get into a gunkhole for the night. 
Attitude is the most important aspect of boating. Some people go around knowing all of the rules and have the attitude that I am doing the right thing everyone watch out. MANY TIMES I HAVE GIVEN WAY WHEN I WAS THE STAND ON VESSEL. My attitude is usually that I want to have a good time with no incidents. I have been surprised by the overall niceness of boaters even powerboaters. I have met a few a$$holes on the water but very few and they were all powerboaters.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

How about the heavy hand of insurers? I have saved 15% on my boat insurance premiums every year since I submitted documentation that I had passed Power Squadron courses and possessed the "bare minimum" Pleasure Craft Operators' Card.

Private operators administer the PCOC test here, but I chose to take it in conjuction with my Power Squadron training. Not being American, xxx edit Cam, I don't mind if the government administers safe boating standards and licencing, particularly if they do it through the Canadian Coast Guard (a civilian agency here, by the way, not para-military) who have a pretty good record, as does the USCG, of having a clue.

You need licences that demonstrate a minimum level of operational competence for cars, airplanes, trucks, motorcycles and even ******* 100 kilo mopeds. The fact that I can buy a 50 foot yacht, pay some guy to drop it in the water, jump in, turn the key and head out into a crowded harbour singing "hi-fiddly-dee, a pirate's life for meeeee" is not an argument for freedom, in my view. It's a case for anarchy.


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## Robby Barlow (Apr 23, 2006)

Sorry MoonSailor but your logic eludes me. Maybe a Sunfish is different where you come from then the one I know. So far I've never heard of anywhere that requires a license for dinghies. But who knows, maybe a pram pushing or bicycle license will also be required in 08.


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

tenuki said:


> Uh, dude, you posted your experience on an internet sailing forum. If you didn't want our comments, what did you want? A virtual cookie?


the discussion raised is an important one and i'm glad for it. i just don't see the need for rancour, that's all.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Valiente said:


> ....You need licences that demonstrate a minimum level of operational competence for cars, airplanes, trucks, motorcycles and even ******* 100 kilo mopeds. The fact that I can buy a 50 foot yacht, pay some guy to drop it in the water, jump in, turn the key and head out into a crowded harbour singing "hi-fiddly-dee, a pirate's life for meeeee" is not an argument for freedom, in my view. It's a case for anarchy.


Ironically, while, at least for another year, you don't need your "licence" (PCOC) for that hypothetical 50 wave maker, you DO need it to run your 9 foot tender with a 2.5hp motor! In 2009 all operators of all vessels will require the PCOC minimum.

For the last couple of years of graduated introduction, in their efforts to lasso the PWC users (high speed annoyances at least) their wording also included any powered craft below a minimum length, initially for young operators and now for all.

Personally I have no problem with a licencing program as long as its basis is education and safety, not a cash grab. It's not realistic to expect the administration of all this to be free, but fees should be based on a cost recovery basis only.


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

This thread is not about Giu and his particular personality and style. He is knowledgeable but hardly has, and would not claim, more than everyone else combined as one claimed.

His main point was that some display a lack of commonsense, and that acquiring competence is desirable. Some things are best learned by experience, eg by starting in a small boat, while others are learned faster by theory or taking advantage of the knowledge of others.

Neither ten thousand miles as a crew member nor a certificate ensure a full range of knowledge.

However, practical experience and a range of knowledge appropriate to the circumstances, plus commonsense and prudence provide a sound base.

That said most of us have made gaffes, particularly early on, and these can be learning experiences for ourselves and others - one is unlikely to leave the bungs out twice.

Most people are supportive of and helpful to those at an early stage in their learning. Equally more experienced people know they can also learn from others. If they encourage competence and prudence it is for a reason.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

HoffaLives said:


> tracy just took the power squadron course, and learned that 70% of boating accidents involve power boats, young people and alcohol.


Here's the annual US Coast Guard report for 2006.

http://www.uscgboating.org/statistics/Boating_Statistics_2006.pdf

20% of accidents are determined to be caused by alcohol.

71.5% are people who have no training.

of the drowning deaths 90% were not wearing life jackets.

Majority of deaths are in the 20 to 60 range.

Sailboats are pretty darn good statistic wise, although houseboats are safer.

Real statistics, real source... Draw your own conclusions, but at least there are the real facts to decide from.


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## HGSail (Jan 21, 2006)

Do you think Joshua Slocum would have left the harbor if he had to deal with all of the regulations and paranoia of today. If the Queen of Spain had told Mr. Columbus I am not going to let you endanger the lives of your men by taking them out on such a dangerous trip, Who knows what's out there!!!! Would the new world had been discovered? What I'm saying is that life is full of danger if you want to stay safe then stay home. (but then the house may catch fire) If you want adventure then go out and have fun but be safe about it, or at least don't endanger others. It is not up to one individual to decide what is right or wrong for others, Because what is right for them may not be for others. Just remember: Everybody does something what others might consider stupid once in a while, Even GUI


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## bluetommy77 (Oct 5, 2007)

*the price of technology*

wow, i'm coming out from under a log to chime in here as a newby to this forum. i really like these competence type discussions. There's a lot of things to consider and I'm not sure where my own opinion really lies so far.

Epirbs, sat phones, short wave, inmarsat c... all technological advancements that allow us to get the word OUT! "HELP ME!" in this context I'm thinking about bluewater/offshore and some of the races and the discussions that the rescues have spawned. Is it responsible to go "out there" and rely on the rescuers because the gear you have is inappropriate or your abilities or knowledge isn't up to snuff?

Should the coast guard make an assessment based on your skill level and knowledge base and how well 'geared up' up are as to rescue or not? I just love reading the opinions here because this is the ongoing debate as the price we pay for higher technology. We definitely need to evolve our skills along with our tech!

On the other hand: what does adventure mean? I take people out whalewatching and (I'm not talking about sailors or even people that have seen the open high latitude ocean before) they really think it's the end of the world that they're getting seasick. But what's adventure... without the adventure? Adventure (to me) inherently implies risk. It implies being uncomfortable. It implies... stress. And then overcoming, prevailing... a sense of achievement. It's like climbing a mountain without being out of breath or uncomfortable. I guess that's why people take a gondola. All the view without the discomfort.

We all sail for different reasons, and we consider different things as adventure. But the point i'm driving at... maybe we've been trying too much to take the edge off adventure at the cost of growing soft. I see people out there in their cockpits, fully encased in plastic peering out at the sunset... i can't even say hello as i row by in my dingy because they can't hear me.

I taught ASA sailing in the BVI for three years. And I KNOW that most of the people i taught all the way to "charter skipper" certification wouldn't remember much of the specifics... so i worked on teaching style, decision making for stress reduction and responsibility. I was told by various charter companies that i really wasn't allowed to fail students. Strongly discouraged to fail. Okay, morality on Tortola is different from morality on the continent. But i was certainly a little surprised and unimpressed by the cynicism of the charter companies. They just wanted a basic level from charterers and wanted them to come back... and for the rest they insured themselves to the hilt. Any other US Sailing or ASA sailing instructors care to voice? Have you ever failed someone in a course who you felt would be a real liability on the water? Or have you passed anyone of the same ilk?

The water is visceral, i feel. Sailing is in your gut, it's the practiced reaction to the tiller when you have to turn quickly or easing a jib under load or walking the deck on a big sea. I agree with those who say it's all about practice and time in boats. I also agree with those who advocate a basic level of certification in order to provide accountability.

But what are you gonna do with someone who desperately wants to sail, is from somewhere inland and only gets 8 days a year to fulfill their dream? Not all of us make decisions to become professional or even very well practiced on the water. How much slack do we allow the unskilled? These are all pretty tough questions. I've enjoyed reading everyone's take, because we need to continue developing a basic bottom line for it...


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Bluetommy, very good post and I agree with alot of what you said.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

IMHO, the power boaters are far more of a menace than sailboats generally are. Most sailboats can't go 20 knots, or do the kind of damage that even a small power boat or PWC can do.

Also, I've found, over the years, that most of the sailors are better learned and more knowledgeable than the power boaters. This is probably due to the fact that a sailor has to pay more attention to wind, current, water depth, and such than a power boater generally does. Granted, there are exceptions to this, but this seems to be the norm.

It generally takes far more intelligence and knowledge to sail a boat from Point A to Point B, than it does to take a motor boat from Point A to Point B. Earlier this season, one of the powerboat operators at my marina said, _"If I go out of the harbor and then keep going right I can get to Newport, right???"_ His boat can do 45+ knots and has 1500 HP or so, and as far as I can tell has no charts or even a GPS Chartplotter on it.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

None of you are christopher columbus and all the waters you are sailing in have been charted long ago. You are sailing for pleasure not for all of humantiy, geese, what a weak argument. The related analogy would be a trip to mars, ie no-one has done it and we don't know for sure what is out there. Totally justified risk and everyone who signs on knows the score and is willing to take the risk. That would be what you are arguing for and I agree those risks are good to take. When some inexperienced yahoo takes his even greener family out on a wild adventure it is risk for personal reasons. Unfortunately the other people involved either have no choice in the matter (children) or perhaps no idea of the risk (spouses, who are listening to their clueless other's description of the risk). That is the thing that makes me furious, idiots who force their bad judgement on others.

I have an occasional fantasy that I'm a brain surgeon, however do I have the 'right' to fullfill this fantasy? Please, anyone concerned with freedom please, lay down on my operating table so I can have some freeeeeeeedommm!!!

Another stupid argument that is being made... No-one is saying you can't go sailing, just that you should have a license that proves you took a test and could answer who was the stand on vessel and are aware you need lifejackets for everyone onboard, etc. It isn't a freedom issue, we aren't talking about prohibiting you from sailing. Get over it, take the stupid little test, get your license or whatever and go on with your life thanking the gods you live in a country or state that cares enough to make sure its waters are safer.

Anyway, I've blown enough hot air on the subject for even my own tolerance. I know it's time to quit when I annoy myself. hahaha.

Thank goodness mandatory boating licenses ($10.00 lifetime) are already on the books for the waters I sail in. Hope all you idiots that refuse to learn who has the right of way or to carry flares, etc claiming it's a freedom issue get booted off the water soon.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Tenuki-

*Don't confuse the issue of boater education and boater licensing.. they're not the same thing. * I'm all for educating boaters... I'm not in favor of another government required license, since the government has proven that it doesn't know how to spend the money responsibly or even enforce the laws that are already on the books.

A person's right to be an ignorant idiot ends where their boat interferes with someone else's, just like your right to swing your fists around ends just before your neighbor's nose. Unfortunately, licensing isn't really all that good a solution, since there are a lot of licensed idiots behind the wheel of cars. A guy who was arrested and charged with vehicular manslaughter here in New England recently was TEXTING someone while driving. Drunk drivers are caught driving all the time without a valid license.

*Licensing does very little to prevent bad, dangerous, ignorant or drunk drivers from being out on the roads... and I seriously doubt it'll work any better on the water, where the law enforcement is even more scarce.*


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

> None of you are christopher columbus and all the waters you are sailing in have been charted long ago. You are sailing for pleasure not for all of humantiy, geese, what a weak argument.


Great line, you made my night. Fair winds


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

I think most competent sailors would go offshore expecting to be self-reliant, because largely they are. Beam me up Scotty doesn't work. 
A radio is useful, as it allows contact allaying concerns if one is overdue, allows advice to be sought if required and may help in getting or providing assistance if required. The epirb allows one's location to be fixed shortening any search, and the cost thereof. So they are not really redundant systems.
In this country for nationals to go offshore the boat must be inspected as to seaworthiness and carry the equipment needed to cope with emergencies, eg alternative steering, means of cutting the rigging free in the event of dismasting, liferaft, medical kit etc. If in fact one could get a signal off there is no assurance of rescue, and one could lose the boat so self-reliance comes first.
The skipper also has to be experienced offshore and be competent at navigation. Most will have their Ocean Yachtmaster certificate.
One reason for this is that a passage would be over a thousand miles of often difficult conditions, with rescue costly and perhaps unsuccessful.
I agree many would do it for a sense of accomplishment, and there is an element of risk. But to use the mountaineering analogy some limb hills but mountaineers try to ensure by equipment knowledge and experienced guides, they survive.
As for the would be charterer keen but with no knowledge, not on my boat thanks. To wave him off from the dock would be irresponsible.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Tenuki-
> 
> *Don't confuse the issue of boater education and boater licensing.. they're not the same thing. * I'm all for educating boaters... I'm not in favor of another government required license, since the government has proven that it doesn't know how to spend the money responsibly or even enforce the laws that are already on the books.
> 
> ...


Bah, and here I thought I was done. 

Licensing is a 'proof of education', the two are different, but not separate.

You can't prevent idiocy true, but what mechanism can you use to moderate it besides law? The license may not be effective in curbing bad behavior, but is is effective in tracking behavior and escalating punishment for bad behavior. Besides giving law enforcement a good way of identifying individuals and tracking their operating careers a license is something that can be suspended or revoked, which triggers stiffer penalties.

Let's look at drunk driving as an example of what I'm talking about since you brought it up. Sure, people still drive drunk, but there are laws against it, all revolving around the license as indication of a privilege to drive. People with the poor judgement to drink and drive provably repeat that poor judgement. The license and accompanying penalties are societies best attempt at moderating those repeat offenders. You state yourself, seemingly with no awareness of how this undermines your arguement, that 'DWIs are caught all the time without licenses.' This is exactly the point of licensing. There are very strict penalties for such cases. Get it? I know I sound condescending, but that is apparently my natural speaking voice today. 

Do you have an alternative plan that would work better? Do you think no law would improve the drunk driving situation?

That is the way rule of law works, at least in the US. You make laws, and punish people who have provably violated them. People who think laws are supposed to prevent behavior 100% are a bit naive. Unfortunately people are gonna murder each other regardless of laws - does that mean murder should be legal? huh?

btw, I agree about a separate license not being nessesary, I would far prefer to see a 'endorsement' on my current drivers license or state id similar to a motorcycle endorsement. If you don't see the benefit of the motorcycle safety and endorsement program I'm not gonna bother arguing about it. I know for a fact that program saved my life more than once.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

tenuki said:


> Bah, and here I thought I was done.
> 
> Licensing is a 'proof of education', the two are different, but not separate.


Unfortunately, unless the licensing for boating is more rigorous than that for driving in this country, the level of education it would require is laughable. Operating a boat safely, especially in bad weather, requires far more knowledge and skill than operating a car. Navigation and the "Rules of the Road" are much more complicated on the water, where there may be no visible navigation landmarks.



> You can't prevent idiocy true, but what mechanism can you use to moderate it besides law? The license may not be effective in curbing bad behavior, but is is effective in tracking behavior and escalating punishment for bad behavior. Besides giving law enforcement a good way of identifying individuals and tracking their operating careers a license is something that can be suspended or revoked, which triggers stiffer penalties.


In the case of the worst offenders, suspension and revocation do very little to discourage driving, and I don't see it improving for boating, especially given how little law enforcement is generally seen on the water. There are fewer law enforcement personnel and far more area to cover.



> Let's look at drunk driving as an example of what I'm talking about since you brought it up. Sure, people still drive drunk, but there are laws against it, all revolving around the license as indication of a privilege to drive. People with the poor judgement to drink and drive provably repeat that poor judgement. The license and accompanying penalties are societies best attempt at moderating those repeat offenders. You state yourself, seemingly with no awareness of how this undermines your arguement, that 'DWIs are caught all the time without licenses.' This is exactly the point of licensing. There are very strict penalties for such cases. Get it? I know I sound condescending, but that is apparently my natural speaking voice today.


Often, judgement has very little to do with it... drunk driving is in many cases a habitual thing, rather than a judgement call. In many cases, an drunk driver doesn't have the ability to judge that they're even drunk, much less that it isn't safe for them to be driving.

The penalties for drunk driving are laughable... From research I did a few years back, the average drunk driver is only pulled over on their 21st offense. Most get less than a wrist slap. I don't see this changing for on-the-water situations. According to MADD, in 2006 there were 17,602 alcohol-related fatalities on American roadways. That means that roughly 41% of the total number of people killed in automobile crashes in 2006 were alcohol related.

Probably unlike you, I speak about drunk driving from a much more personal perspective, as my twin was killed by a drunk driver.



> Do you have an alternative plan that would work better? Do you think no law would improve the drunk driving situation?


Personally, I think revoking their license would be fitting for the first offense... and then *if they're caught driving on a revoked license that executing drunk drivers would be a fitting way to deal with it...* make it a capital crime... _*it'd certainly cut down on repeat offenders. *_



> That is the way rule of law works, at least in the US. You make laws, and punish people who have provably violated them. People who think laws are supposed to prevent behavior 100% are a bit naive. Unfortunately people are gonna murder each other regardless of laws - does that mean murder should be legal? huh?


Unfortunately, you also need to provide law enforcement officials to back those laws up, and give them some teeth. Given how scarce law enforcement on the water is already, and the fact that most current boating laws are rarely enforced, I don't see how licensing is going to change this at all.



> btw, I agree about a separate license not being nessesary, I would far prefer to see a 'endorsement' on my current drivers license or state id similar to a motorcycle endorsement. If you don't see the benefit of the motorcycle safety and endorsement program I'm not gonna bother arguing about it. I know for a fact that program saved my life more than once.


I don't see how a boating endorsement or boating license is really all that useful, given how it would be implemented in this country. First of all, it would be implemented on a state-by-state basis. Many states would probably refuse to do it at all.

Also, some baseline of education, which would have to be far more comprehensive than the current driver's license requires, would have to be developed. Of course, this is going to be very different depending on what kind of boat you're talking about.

Would you have different marine endorsements for PWCs, power boats, sailboats, canoes, sailing dinghies? Would you have different endorsements for lakes, bays, coastal cruising and ocean voyaging???

The education requirements for a seven year-old child sailing an Optimist dinghy on an inland lake, are very different from that of a man using a 30' center console boat to take his buddies out fishing for the day.  The differences in what would be necessary for a canoeist on a river and a keelboat on ocean are also pretty vast.

Finally, how would you fund this education and licensing system? I seriously doubt that the fees from the boater licensing would come anywhere close to covering the required education and law enforcement costs.


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## starboardyacht (Sep 30, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> Is it just me or there seems to be an enormous lack of COMMON SENSE here amidst *some* of our dear members??
> 
> I don't know...I am really amazed how the statistics are so low...and the amount of accidents is so small...
> 
> ...


so................ if some of "them", set out with less experience, no licence, and God forbid NO INSURANCE, and survive..... are they just lucky?

if they make their landfall without a scratch has neptune given "them" a free pass?

if there is no risky rescue or bloody corpse after their first ocean crossing, would that make them qualified?

Seems to me that i hear of more "experienced" sailors lost, than ones without enough common sence to stay home.


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## tonic (Jan 22, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Tenuki-
> 
> *Don't confuse the issue of boater education and boater licensing.. they're not the same thing. * I'm all for educating boaters... I'm not in favor of another government required license, since the government has proven that it doesn't know how to spend the money responsibly or even enforce the laws that are already on the books.
> 
> ...


 What's you point, I agree, "licensing does very little" but what's the alternative. Education is key but come on it certainly is not the only answer here. It's doing wonders for under age drinking, drunk driving and drugs abuse negative. Is it helping yes. There's always going to be "license idiots" out there. No driver's licence what's your point. I'm all for lack of government believe me. PFD I wear one should I have to, no,my choice not hurting anyone but myself. There will always be licenced idiot boaters to, a licence won't stop that I agree whole heartedly, but will it help a little, a tinsy little YES. Maybe there should be to what paramitors I don't know. Unless there is another option along with education which clearly won't work alone. PEACE Got it came in after you


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## tonic (Jan 22, 2007)

starboardyacht said:


> so................ if some of "them", set out with less experience, no licence, and God forbid NO INSURANCE, and survive..... are they just lucky?
> 
> if they make their landfall without a scratch has neptune given "them" a free pass?
> 
> ...


 There it is again "common sense" you solved it CONGRATULATIONS. License it. Ha HA. I find it ironic that the people who have it fail to realize that there are more than a few who lack it or choose to use it. Wish it was that easy. We'd all be well off. PEACE


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

bluetommy77 said:


> Any other US Sailing or ASA sailing instructors care to voice? Have you ever failed someone in a course who you felt would be a real liability on the water? Or have you passed anyone of the same ilk?


Nice post.

I just wanted to put this out there - I do know of one person who failed an ASA class. When I took my beginner ASA class there were four of us and one of the guys failed. He was having a lot of trouble with some really basic things like which way to turn the tiller to get the boat to turn, which way was windward, etc, and I think he also failed the written test. The instructor did fail him, but I think the instructor was also going to work with him to try to help him get it so he could try again at a later date.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Those statistics where very informative.

So going by the stats, if you want to survive your boating you need follow these:
The boat needs to be a sailboat of 65' or larger, built in steel in the year 2005 with a 10HP or less engine, that you must not try to start, is capable of 40Mph or faster in poor visibility during the daytime. Water temp of 90 deg F or warmer, on the great lakes (not tributaries) with waves over 6' and wind over 25mph, you must have approved life jackets on board, but not accessible, you need to have a certificate from the American Red Cross, have at least 10 people on board, be 12 years old or younger and have less than 10 years experience.
If you fit all these criteria, then the stats say, you are more likely to die in some other way than boating.


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## bluetommy77 (Oct 5, 2007)

chris_gee said:


> I think most competent sailors would go offshore expecting to be self-reliant, because largely they are. Beam me up Scotty doesn't work.
> I agree many would do it for a sense of accomplishment, and there is an element of risk. But to use the mountaineering analogy some limb hills but mountaineers try to ensure by equipment knowledge and experienced guides, they survive.[/B]
> As for the would be charterer keen but with no knowledge, not on my boat thanks. To wave him off from the dock would be irresponsible.


It's pretty chilling what you sometimes see in the charter fleet... The BVI especially as they're one of the easiest in the caribbean to qualify for. Every week there would be some great stories around the bar at Nanny Cay (just one place where a few small charter companies were based on one island). The private salvage operations guy was pretty busy... not to mention the chase boats that each company had out on the water. but the business keeps on rolling. They wave them off the dock daily and in droves. just listen to VHF 16 down in the bvi, it's a total gong show.

I wouldn't argue that everyone sails or goes offshore for the sense of adventure. Those that talk of "conquering" the sea after a passage are the types that i'll give a wide, wide berth. i'm only trying to elucidate a line of thought--not making decisions on the water based on fear. another great quote in the thread "only the experienced sailors get in trouble... the other ones are too smart to go out" or something to that effect--that's the attitude right there.

is it experience that teaches you when to take the risk and when to be prudent? how can that be instilled in someone new to the sport? i really think the thrills and spills and risk taking of non-insurance obsessed countries (ie: not canada or the states) has it's place. the first time i came to new zealand and got in a car i got razed by my buddies from the boi: "oh mate, i hope you got your insurance!". (i did, they didn't--being local)

another instance is my buddy steve from auckland who tells a great tale about sailing to fiji from the bay of islands in a 25 foot plywood sloop, towing a dingy--he had so little experience. by no friggin means am i endorsing this, please don't take my thought out of context, but jeez, did steve ever learn a lot and have a great story. he eventually piled on the reef off viti levu and hung out with in a fijian village for 6 months, and to this day his little boat is the chief's doghouse. he knew it was dumb from the word go. he was 18. he went anyway.

the mentality is kinda like: "i don't have insurance (or never thought of it in the first place). it's gonna hurt when i screw up, it's my mistake to make and i'll take the fall!"

what i'm saying is undoubtedly open to lots of interpretations but i don't want to see an increase of fear and alarmism in the general climate. i do like seeing an attitude of personal responsibility regardless of insurance or certification.

i'm learning to surf right now in the winter waves off vancouver island. if i wipeout, i go into a washing machine. i know the risks, but the thrill of getting there can't be denied. of course a 10 ton boat is different than a surfboard, but let the one who's never made a mistake (especially as a newbie) cast the first stone.

now: those little jet skiis? well, the things you see when you don't have a shotgun.


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## bluetommy77 (Oct 5, 2007)

as far as failing students in the ASA goes: that's what I was told to do. recommend them more time on the water and retest, do what it takes to prevent failing the students. at least get them through their written. administering the exam with the knowledge that it was so hard to fail was pretty funny when i saw how (in a general sense) seriously people took it. maybe that in itself is a good sign, but then again they did pay thousands to take the course in the caribbean and wanted to go again next year without my ugly mug on board!


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm not against risk, only idiots spreading their risk taking to others. The examples you gave bluetommy sound totally reasonable to me as they all involve people doing interesting, challenging and personal things without endangering others.

I find it interesting that some equate caution and well preparedness with being risk adverse. They seem to think that if your not deliberately being stupid you aren't really living and scorn anyone who spends a moment in reflection. Seems to me the most satisfying part of taking a risk is surviving it. Call me silly. 

PS: I have insurance because it is the law here. That doesn't make me risk adverse, just law abiding. Do you have trouble with that too? This country's put men on the moon, is the best the rest of the world can do is drive around without insurance? ;P


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

Will Rogers put it so much better than anyone else.

There are three kinds of men: 
1) The ones that learn by reading. 
2) The few who learn by observation. 
3) The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. 

and

Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.


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## bluetommy77 (Oct 5, 2007)

How about taking a paying, passenger boat ride somewhere with an 18 year old skipper? How's this for endangering other people who have no idea what they're getting into?

I'm not talking about Mexico or Indonesia. One of the skippers in my company here in Tofino grew up here, and started this summer driving whalewatching speed boats. Actually, he was sixteen when he started. Lots of kids here are bombing around with passengers aboard, in Clayoquot Sound. Surfers. Children of the Hippies. Kids off the rez. There's some pretty sketchy things that go on and the collision avoidance... well that would chill your heart. 

In fact, if your vessel is under five tons and carries passengers... there's no law. A voluntary checklist completed by the company for Transport Canada is required. No ticket for the operator. That's right. We don't even have a "six pack". There's been bitter complaining in the fleet about a radio operator's license. I'm one of a handful of guys driving speed boats in the rock piles in the fog around a place called the "graveyard of the pacific" that even has a basic commercial captain's license. 

And I've taken flack for not being "local", had to earn my strips with time, not pieces of paper. Around here, they prize local knowledge a helluva lot more than col regs or navigation. Yet thousands of people each summer are brought out. I *think* all the companies are insured. There are some pretty fly-by-night operations around here, though. 

Wouldn't that qualify as endangering people who may have no idea?

Two examples of commercials operations (one in the BVI, the other on Vancouver Island) where the operators knowingly risk their clients on a daily basis without adequate certification or sometimes even adequate gear! 

I really think this discussion is important! 

Despite all this, the commercial guys have a tendency to point their finger squarely at us... the sailboaters (at least in the watery world here in southwestern bc). I've spent time on yachts like this forum discusses, I drive speedboats for a living, have an unlimited tonnage mate's ticket and been to maritime school and spent 5 years on tallships offshore. Yet the most crap I've been given by colleagues involved my time on sailboats... tallships or yachts. 

And quite frankly in a collision situation, often enough it's the sailing yachts that get tangled up in tugs or fish boats. similar speed. often a misguided interpretation of the col regs. Are we all aware that under sail (no engine) we STILL have to give way to vessels: fishing (i wonder: does that include sport fishing?). restricted in ability to maneuver (including tugs pushing or towing, dredge boats, vessels disabled somehow or not under command). vessels constrained by their draft, or larger vessels using the channel?

i've seen sailboats locking horns with commercial traffic and it doesn't help any of our reputation with the guys out there everyday, earning a living. at least powerboats get into trouble quick... but they get out of trouble quick. plus those said tugs and fishing boats have no friggin clue what we're doing when we have to tack across a channel! lots of times they think we're just being contrary!

happy new year


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## MoonSailer (Jun 1, 2007)

*Blue tommy what is the fatality rate???*

Blue tommy your post got me to thinking about the body count. How many people get killed or injured per year from not being properly certified??? As a cynic sometimes I think that all the paperwork and rules are just to keep people from starting a business. That keeps out the competition from some body with a boat getting paid to take people out. Sure is good for the local operators!!!! Imagine the chaos if someone with a sailboat made a few bucks by taking the tourist out for a few hours!!!!! With every rule somebody benefits and somebody pays. As for experience, equipment and certifications I think of the Exxon Valdez!!!!! I'm sure that captain had all of the paperwork showing that he was a great captain.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

MoonSailer - 0 

That is the number that die from not having _certification_ or _licensing_. Certification or Licensing never saved or killed anyone. ( Unless you count the pain of listening to you whine about it .. ;P )

You have a very strange view of law. It's very self centered and small, ie how does this law effect me personally. Laws only make sense if you think of them in the larger context of a society. Otherwise, you are right, they are restrictive.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

As to licenses:
I've been to the BVI four times, chartered bareboat 3, last one was with a qualified, certified crew. Only time we ran aground or had any problems at all was with the (UK) licensed skipper with 'local' knowledge - hit the reef off Marina Cay taking the shortcut from Monkey Point. 
Damn near ended the charter, tore huge hunks out of the keel of a 50 ft catamaran. We took on water until he could plug the hole with epoxy putty.

Common sense: see above - I've taken that cut 3 times, according to him he has taken it hundreds of times (tho he didn't work there last year). He had a nice chart plotter 2 feet from his face, I never did.

Rights of way:
My interpretation: Fishing vessels have right of way when trawling, not trolling.


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## bluetommy77 (Oct 5, 2007)

hey chucklesr:

absoulutely, many of the skippers get into trouble in the bvi! Skippers in the bvi currently do not require certification and in high season periods (christmas or easter) there's definitely not much discrimination. any warm body will do. i was only asked if i had a work permit in the low periods. ;-) there's talk, of course of bringing something in.

as to your interpretation of the rights of way... i'm not sure. i don't have the col regs in the house here beside me... but are you gonna argue with a fishing boat that you get to stand on because he's pulling lines and hooks instead of nets? try telling that to the crew in the bar later that evening! what about a long liner setting or pulling a skate on the bottom that's one mile long?

with my students in ASA courses i used to just tell them: "look... if you're on the water on your own time, for pleasure and if the boat across from you is on the water to make money... don't mess with it! don't mess with commercial traffic!" especially when a working boat is just trying to get somewhere and running on an obvious, straight course.

i'd argue that this would be common sense.

moonsailor:

there's been two separate incidents of fatal accidents in clayoquot sound (one was because a [licensed] skipper was getting to close to see sealions on a rock with a 12 foot surge and was capsized in the surf, the other was because a skipper had one of those "microsleeps" for a couple of seconds and hit a cliff at 25 knots). i have no idea of how many wrenched backs happen in zodiacs every summer but i'd guess 5 or 6--people straining or riding improperly or not getting the proper information on how to ride, that one really makes me wince. talk about a rotten momento for a tourist! throttle back if they're 6 feet or better!

but then a typical situation in the middle of a low pressure system: there's the group of 8 that absolutely insisted on going out when the office [weakly] tells them it's 40 knots and driving rain an 9 foot seas. those are just numbers to land lubbers--until they get to check them out for real!


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

The question posted was who had right of way, not what I do. 

What I do is get out of everyone's way; provided my changing course is not itself a problem or likely to cause one - keep in mind if you are the stand on vessel and alter course and a collision results you are at fault!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If it is a charter boat, then yes, a sailboat under sail has right of way over it. Lines and hooks don't interfere with the boat's ability to maneuver the way nets would. Long lining is a specific form of commercial fishing and is also protected under COLREGS, but a guy with a trolling rod and a long line out isn't quite the same thing-even though you seem to be claiming it is.



bluetommy77 said:


> as to your interpretation of the rights of way... i'm not sure. i don't have the col regs in the house here beside me... but are you gonna argue with a fishing boat that you get to stand on because he's pulling lines and hooks instead of nets? try telling that to the crew in the bar later that evening! what about a long liner setting or pulling a skate on the bottom that's one mile long?


Generally, it is a good idea to keep out of the way of commercial traffic, especially if that traffic is much larger than you and possible subject to maneuverability or draft restrictions.



> with my students in ASA courses i used to just tell them: "look... if you're on the water on your own time, for pleasure and if the boat across from you is on the water to make money... don't mess with it! don't mess with commercial traffic!" especially when a working boat is just trying to get somewhere and running on an obvious, straight course.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

I deal with the right of way rules the same way as when I'm driving a car. When I'm the stand-on vessel, I usually hold my course and keep an eye on the other vessel to make sure he sees me, and he's going to yield. But, sometimes, if I'm casually cruising, and I'll only have to bear off a few feet to cross his stern, I'll often wave him to cross ahead of me, even though I have the ROW. I sometimes do the same thing in my car. I don't see anything in the rules that prohibits us from extending a courtesy to other boats, as long as everyone is clear about what's happening, and nobody gets confused.


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## bluetommy77 (Oct 5, 2007)

It's a good point, sometimes giving up your right of way confuses the situation more.


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

bluetommy77 said:


> It's a good point, sometimes giving up your right of way confuses the situation more.


i've been told that if you give up your proper right of way and an accident ensues, you're considered the one at fault. of course in an imminent collision the rules no longer apply and you do what you can to just get out of it. the rules are there so that hopefully it doesn't get that far. again, it's one of those judgement things to give up the proper right of way, even though there are more risks involved when you don't follow the rules to the letter.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

*Just remember, according to the COLREGS, the ultimate responsibility of any vessel is to avoid collision if at all possible. * This is regardless of type of vessel, whether you have right of way, etc.


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## HGSail (Jan 21, 2006)

I guess that Tenuki just didn't get what my point was, But since Gui and Tenuki are so stuck on being right, I guess there is just no talking to them. NO you can't save the stupid from themselves. No you can't educated those who don't want to be. Try driving the roads of L.A. and you will see that they give a license to every Tom, Dick and MORON that wants one. When you give somebody a certificate when they take a test, It does not mean that they have common sence at what they are doing, It just means that at a minimum they are book smart Not real world smart. Everytime I hear someone argue their point to the point of not hearing others I find that when they are out on the water they do the most stupid things. The point of Columbus was Government over regulation that was it! PERIOD! But for TENUKI and GUI to sit there and refer to people as stupid and to talk to them as such just shows their level of maturity. I will now refer to what Gui said, BLOW ME!


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

HGSail said:


> I guess that Tenuki just didn't get what my point was, But since Gui and Tenuki so stuck on being right, I guess there is just no talking. NO you can't save the stupid from themselves. No you can't educated those who don't want to be. Try driving the roads of L.A. and you will see that they give a license to every Tom, Dick and MORON that wants one. When you give somebody a certificate when they take a test, It does not mean that they have common sence at what they are doing, It just means that at a minimum they are book smart Not real world smart. Everytime I hear someone argue their point to the point of not hearing others I find that when they are out on the water they do the most stupid things. The point of Columbus was Government over regulation that was it! PERIOD! But for TENUKI and GUI to sit there and refer to people as stupid and to talk to them as such just shows their level of maturity. I will now refer to what Gui said, BLOW ME!


I know you are are but what am I?


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## HGSail (Jan 21, 2006)

I make my case


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Does that mean this thread can die now?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hey S'way:


> Does that mean this thread can die now?


Give us guys who don't have frequent contact with civilization a break will ya?

I can only check in every now and then, and want to jump on some of these old threads, 'specially from Alex, the no hair on his body portagee.

The answer is simple: READ DARWIN


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

You mean will this thread die of natural causes ? No, I doubt that ... somebody will have to take this thread out back and shoot it.


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## HGSail (Jan 21, 2006)

If you could do that now I would appreciate it. I'll supply the ammo.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

There is no way I will read all 174 posts here..

I got tired of reading the first ones, obviously many people here don't know me...and assume what I writte to be attacks...I don't do that...I say and writte waht I think as it comes out...period...I don't play games...the hat fits the head?? Good for you...


This thread was "driven" in a way I would never think, or I would never want...I have better things to do..

those that know me, know I am absolutely not as I am being painted here, in fact, as I am being painted on sailnet lately..so to all of you "hidden REP man", "offensive email idiot"...get a life....if you don't know what it is...I'll show you mine.....

Its sad, that people assume things, and even more sad is that the people doing it, don't even bother to read or to talk to me, its the stobe throwr from the Monthy Python movie, the Life of Brian....

Its sad...what can I say or do? Nothing...

Do you really think I am in favour or against licencing?? I am not either or.... 

I am in favour of people learning how to do things so that people like my 5 life long friends that died 5 years ago don't have to die to save an idiot that decided to go out when it was blowing hard and the seas were rough, in a 30 foot sailboat in 15 seas!!! high moon, gusts to 45....etc...

You know what....screw all this.....I'm tired

bye


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Hey Giu...I don't think this would have happened if you hadn't left for a monastery for a week! (g) Your friends know WHO you are...faggedabout the rest!


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

camaraderie said:


> Hey Giu...I don't think this would have happened if you hadn't left for a monastery for a week! (g) Your friends know WHO you are...faggedabout the rest!


Exactly.... don't waste your time with the jerks. Life's too short.

Oh... and to HGSail: I'd like to speak on behalf of Giulietta....
*IT'S GIU DAMNIT!!!!!!!!!!*


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> I am in favour of people learning how to do things so that people like my 5 life long friends that died 5 years ago don't have to die to save an idiot that decided to go out when it was blowing hard and the seas were rough, in a 30 foot sailboat in 15 seas!!! high moon, gusts to 45....etc...
> 
> bye


although that memory must be incredibly painful for you, can you elaborate? Like bubb2's story of his family, such horrors might hopefully educate others. maybe some small good can come from a tragedy?


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

HoffaLives said:


> although that memory must be incredibly painful for you, can you elaborate? Like bubb2's story of his family, such horrors might hopefully educate others. maybe some small good can come from a tragedy?


I'm curious about this too but didn't want to ask. I lost my good friend/roomate/co-worker back in 2002 and it's still hard to think about... her brother was killed at the same time. This was not related to boating though so i'll spare you guys the details.

I can't imagine 5 at once.


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## BreakingWind2 (Jan 3, 2008)

Just a new guy here but have been lurking for a while. I don't think the original post was meant to be hurtful, more of a constructive criticism. If you took it as a personal attack, may be there is a reason.

With respect to licensing, here in Ontario they require everyone to take a pleasure craft operators test but it is a joke. You can sit down while you are shopping at the local Canadian Tire and take the test. No preparation, no experience required.

I think it is a mistake to place too much emphasis on formal education. I took a Keel Boat course this spring to refresh my rusty skills and one of the students, who ended up passing by the way, could not even remember what to do when told to either "head up" or "bear away". They received the certificate but I would not ever leave the dock with them at the helm.

Giu, I have never met you but I would sail with you any day. Some times your posts do come across as critical, but, hey, I've got big shoulders, I'll get over it. One thing you are is honest.

To the others (and you know who you are) its a friggin' sailing forum, lighten up!

(climbing off the soapbox now)


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

BreakingWind2 said:


> Just a new guy here but have been lurking for a while. I don't think the original post was meant to be hurtful, more of a constructive criticism. If you took it as a personal attack, may be there is a reason.
> 
> With respect to licensing, here in Ontario they require everyone to take a pleasure craft operators test but it is a joke. You can sit down while you are shopping at the local Canadian Tire and take the test. No preparation, no experience required.
> 
> ...


Good post Dave and welcome aboard


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

BreakingWind2 said:


> Just a new guy here but have been lurking for a while.


Hello, Dave, and welcome aboard. I haven't pulled into Newcastle for a few years...is that walled-in little entrance still in need of dredging? I remember being able to see the bottom on a cloudy day from a fair distance out.

I liked visiting there because it was so weird...there was a relatively large marina, but no visible town, at least when I was there around 2000. You could certainly hear the freight trains, however...


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## BreakingWind2 (Jan 3, 2008)

Valiente,
The entrance is the same and in the fall if you draw more than 6 feet you're gonna hit the bottom. Luckily its just muck and goose sh*t. You should take a trip up now, big housing development with condos now and the town even has a Tim Horton's! Does that qualify it now as big? (Then again I live in a town of 18,000 people and we now have 5 Timmies ) We Canadians must love our coffee


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Hey I had Tim Hortons...many days of my life in Canada.....

But again...I also drove a Volvo there...


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

BreakingWind2 said:


> Valiente,
> The entrance is the same and in the fall if you draw more than 6 feet you're gonna hit the bottom. Luckily its just muck and goose sh*t. You should take a trip up now, big housing development with condos now and the town even has a Tim Horton's! Does that qualify it now as big? (Then again I live in a town of 18,000 people and we now have 5 Timmies ) We Canadians must love our coffee


Well, I'll have to wait until May at the earliest, but I suspected as much about development in that area. It couldn't stay isolated for ever, because Newcastle is practically a suburb of Toronto now.

My new boat draws about 5' 8", which is a nice thing about a full keeler (my much smaller fin keeler drew six feet). If I run aground, I can usually power off. One place that concerns me is Presqu'ile Bay, because I found even in the marked fairway that I grounded more than once. I hope all the November rains and the current snow here brings Lake Ontario up a foot or so. We need it.

Thanks for the update.


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## BreakingWind2 (Jan 3, 2008)

A volvo? What's the matter, our big, gas guzzling Chevy's not good enough for ya?


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Hey I had Tim Hortons...many days of my life in Canada.....
> 
> But again...I also drove a Volvo there...


Alex, my sister gave me an espresso maker for Christmas, a small Krups model that looks a fair bit like yours. I think Krups made artillery for the Nazis, so espresso is probably a logical next step, at least the way I make it.










I am getting in trouble with my wife, because I am pronouncing it "expresso", like the Portuguese, whereas she is insisting it should be "espresso", like the Italians.

I tell her I've never been to Italy.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Val, tell her, that either Expresso or Espresso, is better than any Tim Hortons will ever be...


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## BreakingWind2 (Jan 3, 2008)

Valiente,
I'm planning on heading up to the Gananoque area this summer and I see what you mean about the depth, almost as bad as some areas in Lake Erie. 
Pretty fancy coffee maker. I don't care how you pronounce it, I'll take a large one thanks.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Val, mine is Krups also...good choice...good choice...in fact that one seems like a new look version of mine....

Breakingwind2..I don't think you should get a large one...you'll never sleep again...at least if I make the coffee for you....


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Hey bluebottle,
Next time don't start a thread like this and then jet off to the Portagee Riviera or Versailles, or whereever you went. Your "friends" spent the whole week battling the flames on your behalf, while you were sunbathing on the cote-du-herring or something. We tried telling everyone that you were just an ass, and full of crap, and that those are your good traits, but nobody was really buying it. Thanks alot. (g)


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Val, tell her, that either Expresso or Espresso, is better than any Tim Hortons will ever be...


I never go into Tim Horton's. You of all people should know my tastes in coffee!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I don't know Val, after all your taste in Countries is pretty weak...

Who would live in a refrigerator??


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Breakingwind2..I don't think you should get a large one...you'll never sleep again...at least if I make the coffee for you....


I had two double expressos this morning, and it finally woke me up. Maybe I should sandblast the hull and paint it today!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

ehehehehe

and while you're in "full gas", swim across the Atlantic and come here help me fix things on my boat, will you?


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> I don't know Val, after all your taste in Countries is pretty weak...
> 
> Who would live in a refrigerator??


The refrigerator is broken:

*Tuesday Jan 8* *High: 15 C*
More Details
Cloudy
Cloudy and breezy with the temperature breaking the record of 12 C; rain possible in the afternoon. Winds from the S at 38 .
Realfeel®: 10 °C
High: 15 °C

That's the day I'm hauling my engine.


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## sonofasonofasailer456 (Feb 2, 2007)

This is not directed at anyone.
While I agree with alot of what you say,most idiots will still be idiots, licence or not, sailboat or power boat, all though I have to admit that I see more a^%$#le power boat skippers that sailboat skippers. common sense goes a long way and just general intelligence, sailboats require a little more thought to operate than jumping in the boat hit the key and now I'm captain of the seas. But I hear ya!


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## HGSail (Jan 21, 2006)

Joel73 said:


> Exactly.... don't waste your time with the jerks. Life's too short.
> 
> Oh... and to HGSail: I'd like to speak on behalf of Giulietta....
> *IT'S GIU DAMNIT!!!!!!!!!!*


What ever.............. You know Joel if it bothered Alex, He woud have said something. Now it's time too get over it and let all of this die out.


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

HGSail said:


> What ever.............. You know Joel if it bothered Alex, He woud have said something. It's time to leave high School and stop being a toady.


AHAHHAHAHAHAAAAA.... that was funny. Telling me to leave highschool and then doing the name calling yourself... AND it's coming from "His Royal Dudeness!" If you knew me you wouldn't consider me a toady. I was defending a friend... i would have done the same for you if the tables were turned.


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## Joel73 (Apr 23, 2007)

HGSail said:


> What ever.............. You know Joel if it bothered Alex, He woud have said something. Now it's time too get over it and let all of this die out.


Actually... he has said something....repeatedly... just not to you yet. I saw the other thread where you made amends... glad you came around. I'm over it... and it was kinda a joke anyway. I always crack up when i see the big red letters from Alex.


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## HGSail (Jan 21, 2006)

Joel73 said:


> Actually... he has said something....repeatedly... just not to you yet. I saw the other thread where you made amends... glad you came around. I'm over it... and it was kinda a joke anyway. I always crack up when i see the big red letters from Alex.


Cool,Cool

By the way, How is the weather that we're sending out your way?

Pat


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

*IT's GIU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!​*
I missed that....


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Yeah,
You missed the Cote-du-Herring comment too. (g)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Did Gui say something???


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> Yeah,
> You missed the Cote-du-Herring comment too. (g)


Nah...just ignoring you, like everyone else here does...    

That was funny, really funny, I showed it to my wife she thought it was funny...

No go pay the kitchen will ya??


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