# Harness and Tether Recommendations?



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I do entirely river/bay sailing (no offshore), but may be singlehanding some this season, so I'm thinking of getting a harness during Defender's sale. I like my current PFD which has no D-rings, and I'm shocked at the prices of PFDs with D-rings (and also reluctant to buy one without trying it on). So I plan to buy a harness that I can put on under my favorite PFD when needed, and I'll wear the PFD without harness when I have crew (which will be 90% of the time).

What do you guys know about this harness (click pic for link to Defender listing):

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If you have it, are you satisfied with its comfort? It looks like the D-rings would ride pretty high on the chest, which I prefer because it would fit above my PFD's waist belt.

I have not been able to find any size info, like what measurements correspond to medium vs. large. I assume that I would wear a medium in warm weather, but would need large to go over top of any heavy foulies that I would wear in cold weather. Does that mean the I need to buy one of each size? (Would also give me a spare for crew.)

I'm also thinking of this tether, which seems to have some nice features. Comments on this?:

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I know anchors and fenders can start a huge debate here, so I can only imagine what kind of debate life-saving equipment will generate. I plan to place my order Thursday night, so please give me your input ASAP if you have something helpful to offer.

Thanks!


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

I do wear an inflatable pfd with a harness, at all times. 

I use that tether, I like a quick release. I had one fail and WM replaced it for free.

The Spinlock Deckvest is very popular, but not approved. It uses a cow hitch to attach the tether, but the vest has a built-in cutter. It has thigh straps. I have added a crotch strap to my pfd.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

I agree with TakeFive's approach. I wear a harness and/or a PFD, and I like the flexibility of being able to wear a harness without a PFD in extremely warm weather or a PFD without a harness in certain conditions, or both when necessary.

I have the cheapo Jim Buoy variety with the supplied rope tether. Here is a photo of me off Delmarva during last summer's heat wave, with my Petzl red headlight for reading charts: https://plus.google.com/photos/101935788163929897438/albums/5785879717707663537/5785879784085399138?banner=pwa&authkey=CPq64djL942rzQE

Incidentally, you can see my aqua colored beanbag to the left of the photo, for sleeping in the cockpit. High temps were in the 90s during the day with high humidity and lows in the 70s or 80s at night.

My harness clips to a dynamic (stretchy) climbing rope that I use as a jackline, to lessen the impact stress on all points. In the unfortunate event I fall overboard, I want to be able to fall clear of the boat relatively gently, slide quickly aft behind the stern, and climb aboard. Hopefully, I will never test the system in real life.


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

I used WM harness and Double tether, no pdf when in a harness. I use 1" hollow webbing for jacklines. There we be many opinions on here about whats right and whats wrong but in the end you need to go with what you ultimately feel safe with. The reality is there is no right or wrong answers. Best advice I have heard is one hand for the boat and one hand for you. One of the things that help me stay safe is to think situations through before attacking them, even in emergencies. Good luck and have a great sailing season.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

jackdale said:


> I do wear an inflatable pfd with a harness, at all times.
> 
> I use that tether, I like a quick release. I had one fail and WM replaced it for free.
> 
> The Spinlock Deckvest is very popular, but not approved. It uses a cow hitch to attach the tether, but the vest has a built-in cutter. It has thigh straps. I have added a crotch strap to my pfd.


I have the same setup. When off shore as part of a crew or alone I wear the spinlock integrated PFD, with harness with a plb attached. The crotch straps are never in the way and a great addition. To me wearing a pfd with integrated harness is the way to go and you dont even know the harness is there. I never pay retail for any of this stuff and have accumulated them over the years, At the boat show last year Annapolis performance sailing was 40% of their pfd, teathers, and harnesses.

I do a lot of single handing also, If it is to become part of your routine, I would invest in some quality stuff and accumulate it over the years as it can be expensive and you can wait till they have deep sales on them. The harness you are looking at is adequate, but could really cut into you you if you really had to use it, Also the quick releases are important that they are qualoity and will work when called upon, not just to move from jackline to jackline, but in an emergency under adverse situatuions and pressure on the clip.

Staying on the boat is the first priority of course and your safety equipment/ system should be first rate to save you, not an afterthough or just sale priced.

Here is my single harness- very lightweight and great construction
Spinlock Deckware - Deck Pro Harness: Mauri Pro Sailing

It doesnt cut into you when you wear it for long times like the webbing harnesses will.

Spinlock Deckvest 5D 170N Pro Sensor Inflatable PFD & Harness
ACR 2881 ResQLink+ PLB Personal Locator Beacon

In the bay I usually wear an integrated Mustang with harness when single handing.

Mustang MD3184 PFD Auto Hydrostatic Inflatable-MD3184 Mustang

Check out the teathers on here. I have this one
Annapolis Performance Sailing (APS) - Race Safety Line: Cow Hitch + 2 Clips

Generally I run a jackline from the cockpit to the mast and a second one to the bow.
Inflatable PFDs | Hydrostatic, Manual, Automatic | Spinlock, Mustang - Annapolis Performance Sailing (APS)


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

FWIW, ISAF now requires a crotch strap on harnesses (even though the manufacturers don't seem to have caught up yet).


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jackdale said:


> .....The Spinlock Deckvest is very popular, but not approved. It uses a cow hitch to attach the tether, but the vest has a built-in cutter. It has thigh straps. I have added a crotch strap to my pfd.


I'm a fan of the Spinlock Deckvest and its integrated spray hood, s-cutter, lights, thigh straps (very important) etc. As the OP pointed out, there is a lot of personal preference to this one and I find the Deckvest to be most comfortable rounded neoprene instead of sharp edged nylon. Personally, I see no circumstance where one thinks a harness is necessary, where a pfd wouldn't be. Maybe its just me. I can see one wanting a pfd, but not necessarily need to be tethered in, and there is no downside to the deckvest. Just don't clip in.

Not sure what you mean by needing a cow hitch. You could use any regular tether you like on the deckvest. I prefer Spinlocks, which has an ordinary opposing movement clip at the harness. II'm in the camp of not trusting a quick release and prefer to cut it away, if necessary. I would rather focus on setting up the jackline, so that being dragged in the water was an impossiblity anyway. That's fielders choice as well.

I never did really research why they are not USCG approved, but many European safety items just refuse to go through the US bureaucracy. Some moto helmet companies refuse as well, but doesn't make them poor choices.

As the Spinlock vest are not approved, you do need an approved pfd for yourself squirreled away somewhere to comply.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm a fan of the Spinlock Deckvest and its integrated spray hood, s-cutter, lights, thigh straps (very important) etc. As the OP pointed out, there is a lot of personal preference to this one and I find the Deckvest to be most comfortable rounded neoprene instead of sharp edged nylon. * Personally, I see no circumstance where one thinks a harness is necessary, where a pfd wouldn't be. Maybe its just me. * I can see one wanting a pfd, but not necessarily need to be tethered in, and there is no downside to the deckvest. Just don't clip in.
> 
> II'm in the camp of not trusting a quick release and prefer to cut it away, if necessary. I would rather focus on setting up the jackline, so that being dragged in the water was an impossiblity anyway. That's fielders choice as well.
> .


If I am in the cockpit for a long duration on a relative calm day and not moving forward I will sometimes just wear the harness as its really light, but I agree with you anytime spent foreward meeds a PFD.

I also agree with the cutting of the web, thats one of the reason I went with the spinlocks too. The quick relaease are an asset when moving up the jackline and going from one to the next one. Thats why I have the double so you are never not attached.

Placement of the jacklines is the parmount thing too, Especially the final one in the cockpitone which prevents you frrom being thrown over the stern.

I reality I dont do much sailing in conditions where this is a real necessity, but on a couple of deliveries I have done being clipped in was a great sense of securit

Dave
Dave


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

If you go with a combo unit (which we have) blow the extra bucks and get one using a hydrostatic trigger. The others use a variation of a salt tablet. Given you will be out in weather taking seas on your chest from time to time last thing you need is to have the pfd deploy at just the wrong moment. Also worth not buying on internet sight unseen. Something you should really try on with your foulie top on at least and move around and sit a spell. Also with just a tee shirt ( some chafe your neck). Needs to be comfy. 
Big fan of the double tether with elastic cover. Don't trip on it. Also make sure all three attachments can be released with one hand under load.

p.s.- have the mustangs and some small ones for kids Bought different colors so can tell the admiral's from mine.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I'll consider a combo unit, but only if the PFD is comfortable/light enough that I wear it all the time, even without the tether. I like the idea of always having the D-clips available on a moment's notice, but not if there's a large penalty in comfort. Previous comments were that combo units were heavier than non-harness auto inflate PFDs, but I suspect there are exceptions.

In my boat I will wear a PFD all the time - I'm not willing to compromise that level of safety. I just won't need a harness 95% of the time, since I have crew with me and am in a very protected area. But a PFD that's as comfortable as my current one, but has D clips, would be the best of both worlds.

I've had my eyes on the Mustang MD3184 for awhile (have had a price watch on it at Amazon, waiting for it to come down some), and I think I tried one on at a boat show awhile ago, and recall it was fairly comfortable. I went with a WM non-harness PFD because it was equally comfortable and much lower cost, and at that time 3 years ago I envisioned absolutely no need to clip in. But that WM one has gotten to the point where the bobbin needs replacement, so it might be a good time to upgrade to the Mustang, with its D-clips and superior auto-inflate technology.

Can you guys with the Mustang vouch for its comfort and light weight? If so, that would probably be my selection.

Defender has it on sale for $231, which is 10% below their normal price. I've seen it go for a bit less on ebay, but always concerned about expiration dates when buying through unauthorized sources. I have about 6 weeks before I might need this, so I can afford to wait for an attractive price. Whati s a good price for the MD3184? Should I go ahead an pull the trigger at Defender? I'll be placing an order for some other accessories, so I'd add this in with them.

Also, are there add-on leg straps available for the MD3184? Keep in mind that I will not be sailing in areas where USCG certification is required. I'll be using the harness on inland waters out of an abundance of caution when singlehanding.

FYI, I checked the exhibitors list for the Annapolis Spring sailboat show, and Annapolis Performance Sailing is not on the list.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I think each persons body shape, neck size, etc, is going to impact their personal comfort. I have an 18.5" neck, left over from my old linebacker days and find the flat nylon style dig I to me. The soft neoprene roll is comfy. YMMV, you should really go try them on.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> If I am in the cockpit for a long duration on a relative calm day and not moving forward I will sometimes just wear the harness as its really light, but I agree with you anytime spent foreward meeds a PFD.


I guess the irony that I see is having any concern at all for potentially ending up overboard and not haing a PDF on. Still, fielders choice.



> I also agree with the cutting of the web, thats one of the reason I went with the spinlocks too. The quick relaease are an asset when moving up the jackline and going from one to the next one. Thats why I have the double so you are never not attached.


The quick release that I'm referring to would be at the harness attachment, where you could pull a cord to disconnect it and keep from being dragged through the water. The tethers without a quick release, still have a clip at each end to move up the jacklnes. They just require dual opposing movements, so they can't be accidentally opened or opened when under a load.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> Can you guys with the Mustang vouch for its comfort and light weight? If so, that would probably be my selection.


I can. The new ones with the neoprene at the neck are much better than the old ones.

I wear it at all times. A pdf does no good if it is in a locker.


> Also, are there add-on leg straps available for the MD3184? Keep in mind that I will not be sailing in areas where USCG certification is required. I'll be using the harness on inland waters out of an abundance of caution when singlehanding.


I have this. It is comfortable.

Mustang Leg Strap Assembly


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> The quick release that I'm referring to would be at the harness attachment, where you could pull a cord to disconnect it and keep from being dragged through the water. The tethers without a quick release, still have a clip at each end to move up the jacklnes. They just require dual opposing movements, so they can't be accidentally opened or opened when under a load.


I like tethers all over the boat. I use the one that is more appropriate. That is why I like the quick release; I am always attached.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Placement of the jacklines is the parmount thing too, Especially the final one in the cockpitone which prevents you frrom being thrown over the stern.


I prefer U bolt attachment points in the cockpit; one at each corner.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

outbound said:


> p.s.- have the mustangs and some small ones for kids Bought different colors so can tell the admiral's from mine.


Check the regulations for inflatables and children. In Canada



> Inflatable PFDs are NOT approved for:
> 
> anyone under 16 years old;
> anyone who weighs less than 36.3 kg (80 lbs);
> ...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> I'll consider a combo unit, but only if the PFD is comfortable/light enough that I wear it all the time, even without the tether. I like the idea of always having the D-clips available on a moment's notice, but not if there's a large penalty in comfort. Previous comments were that combo units were heavier than non-harness auto inflate PFDs, but I suspect there are exceptions.
> 
> In my boat I will wear a PFD all the time - I'm not willing to compromise that level of safety. I just won't need a harness 95% of the time, since I have crew with me and am in a very protected area. But a PFD that's as comfortable as my current one, but has D clips, would be the best of both worlds.
> 
> ...


Both the Mustang and the Spinlock are comfortable and you dont know the difference that the harness is even there. Spinlock is a little more comfortable.

Annapolis Performance sailing has the leg straps for another $46
spinlock deckvest DECKWARE petzl harness Inflatable PFD life vest - Sailing Pro Shop - Professional Marine Outfitters and Sailing Gear


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

A cautionary tale

Sail-World.com : He wasn't clipped on. Another sailor washed overboard drowns


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Tragic tale. There is another lesson here - one of situational awareness. "One hand for yourself, one for the ship" at all times. No matter how engrossed you may be in the task at hand, you better know what is going on around you and have a hand on the boat. How could he not be aware of the approach of a freak wave large enough to wash him off the boat?


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

I find all this interesting as I climb for living. My main niche as a stage electrician is the "climb and focus" as in I climb up onto the truss overhanging the state and point the lights where they are supposed to go.

As such I am not unfamilier with harnesses and lanyards. The double hooked lanyards are common, it allows you to clip out of a safety line and onto another without unhooking completely.. a very good idea in any book. I just wonder how much "give" that elasticized one has. I would not want to get knocked off of my feet and find myself partially over the side wedged against the hull and the rushing water going by.

The main trick with harnesses is to find one that is comfortible and does not impede your movement. If something is a pain to wear, you won't use it


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

mad_machine said:


> I just wonder how much "give" that elasticized one has.


The elastic really does not absorb any shock. It just keeps the unused end out of the way, sort of. I have an old tether in which the elastic is shot. I use it in non-critical locations.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

I kind of gathered that. A shock tether would have an "absorber" built of several folded over layers sewed together with a weak thread that is designed to break and allow the layers to unfold and slow your descent.

I was more wondering what the ultimate length of that elasticized tether is. As I will be mostly single handing (at least at first) This is very much on my list of things to buy before going out on the water


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

jackdale said:


> A cautionary tale
> 
> Sail-World.com : He wasn't clipped on. Another sailor washed overboard drowns


The article claims "he just wasn't clipped on." But it's unclear whether it should also say "he just wasn't wearing a PFD." That's a critical omission, since flotation is even more important than a tether, IMO.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

mad_machine said:


> I was more wondering what the ultimate length of that elasticized tether is. As I will be mostly single handing (at least at first) This is very much on my list of things to buy before going out on the water


3 feet and 6 feet for the doubles. 6 feet for the singles.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

up here and when offshore the harness is much more important in MHO. You will die of hypothermia before you drown. If single with the vane or Autopilot set ( which it will be when you go on deck) may be preferable to go to sleep from hypothermia after the boat sail's away. Harness is more important for sailor's. 
Can get groin set up for virtually all combo units from what I've seen.

Have four folding D rigs in cockpit. Have webbing between them. can hook in before leaving companionway. everyone hooks in at night regardless of weather and going forward except in light air.
safety first


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

outbound said:


> You will die of hypothermia before you drown.


Anyone interested in hypothermia should check out Cold Water Boot Camp


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

cool site (grin) good post. Tx.
conclusion- get combo device and wear it.


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

I got a WM harness and single tether from the clearance isle at West marine a few years ago. On my 20ft boat a single truck bed anchor at the companionway allows me to reach the outboard and the mast on the single tether. 

I may add a second anchor point near the mast to go forward of the mast but that will require another tether, a jack line does not make a lot of sense on a 20ft boat but I am willing to be proved wrong.

I would rather have a PFD with "D" ring than the harness, just because I tend to forget to but the harness on and have to go below to find it.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

For hot weather and where one prefers not to wear the combination inflatable PFD/harness, another possibility is to use a harness in combination with a belt pack inflatable PFD. The belt pack inflatable requires a slight deflation once you are in the water to finish putting it on....over your head, tighten straps, re-inflate fully. So, it's definitely not as safe/fool proof as the combined PFD/harness, but in sheltered waters and hot days, it can be cooler.

Of course, the idea of a harness is not to allow you to go overboard in the first place, so the PFD part is really a back-up in case the harness/tether/jackline don't do their job.

I always wear a belt pack inflatable when on the boat, whether I am using a harness or not. However, if it is getting a bit rough, then I switch to combination PFD/harness.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

A cautionary tale for u-bolt anchors.
Sydney To Hobart Yacht Race Coroner's Inquest - 07/03/2001 - QWN - NSW Parliament. Yachting: Charles died after safety harness failed - Telegraph.

It seems that a good fall against a u-bolt without a shock-absorbing tether has caused failure. They simply cannot handle the impact and neither can the human body. The "impact flags" are a rather stupid adaptation when real impact absorption could be provided.

Sail Delmarva: The Case for Softer Tethers


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

pdqaltair

Thanks - food for thought.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

It seems that a good fall against a u-bolt without a shock-absorbing tether has caused failure. They simply cannot handle the impact and neither can the human body. The "impact flags" are a rather stupid adaptation when real impact absorption could be provided.

Agree with Delmarva
As stated earlier have four d rings in cockpit with jackline between them. Jackline absorbs force. Also allows you to wander forward in cockpit on the 3' and be attached at all times when leaving cockpit to go forward on jackline. Only place I tether to a hard point is at mast pulpit on rare occasion you have to climb up the mast a bit to mess with mainsail. Very good post- Tx.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Good reading material, and it seems to really question the wisdom of clipping onto a fixed point.



outbound said:


> ...As stated earlier have four d rings in cockpit with jackline between them. Jackline absorbs force...


Not sure this is a full or appropriate solution to the problem. You need a certain length of jackline to get enough stretch for shock absorption. They seemed to suggest that a 30' length was optimal. Maybe if you ran a single jackline around all four D-rings. Otherwise, you need to take care to get a stretchy material. That's how I read it, but others have far more experience than I do with this.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

OK, one more quick question for your owners of the Mustang MD3184.

When I look at the pictures, it seems to me like the D-rings are awfully low on your abdomen. From trying on harnesses, I always thought that the best place for the D-rings would be right under your rib cage, roughly equal height with your armpits. If I try to imagine myself getting dragged along by the boat (something that I hope stays in my imagination!) I would think this attachment point would be much better than the lower point where the Mustang's D-rings appear to be.

Are the pictures just an optical illusion, and the rings are actually higher? Or is there some reason why it is better for the D-rings to be lower.

Pardon the noob question, but this is the kind of stuff that has to be asked for a first harness purchase, and something that I don't trust a store clerk to answer for me.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

I'm 5'9" and my MD3184 D-rings are at the bottom of my rib cage. Overall, this harness is as comfortable as I could expect: not restrictive of arm motion and it does not crowd teh back of my neck.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

I only use one all the time when sailing at night or with demanding weather.

I rarely use a PFD, normally when I think conditions demands it I use an harness.

I would point out that if you go out of the boat and stay clipped to it, the PDF is not going to help you (it has been cases where it is the opposite) and unless you have luck and a very strong crew you are done (or at least it is what has been happening).

Regarding the options, the right one is to have the jack line well inside the boat (and not normally were they are used, between cleats) and having a short double tether. On the last years, after several accidents with people dying going overboard connected to tethers, their length diminished drastically on the European market. From 1.5m average they have now about 1m, maybe just a little bit more. More difficult to use but certainly safer.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

If some one goes overboard when tethered. Stop the boat: heave-to (if they go off to leeward), go into irons, luff the sails.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Jack lines at base of house inside the shrouds. Top of pulpits/safety lines 30" up from deck .Combining up and down safety lines and distant from jacklines more then the 3' of short arm of tender even with stretch of jackline. . If go over head and shoulders would be well above toe rail. Try to always go forward on windward side. If go over in front of shrouds use spin halyard to lift crew back on board. If go over behind shrouds climb back on through sugar scoop or use outboard hoist on starboard or topping lift/secondary main halyard on port side. Also carry a spare block and tackle as well as a Life Sling . Admiral only weighs 100lbs. so we both have thought about this drill. For her - fear is a wonderful thing. Figure I'll just bend down and pick her up. It's me that's the problem as usual.
Use nylon for jackline in cockpit.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

PCP said:


> ...Regarding the options, the right one is to have the jack line well inside the boat (and not normally were they are used, between cleats) and having a short double tether. On the last years, after several accidents with people dying going overboard connected to tethers, their length diminished drastically on the European market. From 1.5m average they have now about 1m, maybe just a little bit more. More difficult to use but certainly safer.


Let's talk about my specific boat for a few seconds:






There are a few challenges:

The beam of the whole boat is only 8.5'. Your argument about 6' tether being too long almost certainly applies to my boat, and I raised this issue on the Catalina 250 website.
There are no side decks.
The anchor locker is easily obstructed by jacklines at the bow.
It's a small boat, so not a lot of good spaces to put D-rings. And based on the Sail Delmarva links, I don't want to clamp directly to D-rings - I just want places to attach jacklines.
The contour of the front cabin is not a gradual slope - more of a "windshield" type front window - so a jackline will not lie flat and will be a trip hazard.
Because of the fact that I will not take this boat offshore, and will singlehand maybe 5% of the time, I am not going to install permanent jacklines. If I did, item #5 above would make them hazardous. You must realize that everything is a compromise, and on this boat jacklines can create more hazards than they solve if you are sailing in a situation where you don't need them. So I will install temporary jacklines only if I am singlehanding.

Per the advice of people on the Catalina website, I will install the temporary jacklines from the bow cleats to the stern cleats (which you can see in the above pic). I will do one on each side. I briefly thought about wrapping each one around the mast to keep them near the centerline on the bow (and gradually sloping to the corner stern cleats), so I'd invite your suggestions about that, but that would definitely interfere with the anchor locker and the companionway. It may be better to run one down each side, where they will avoid the anchor locker and stay above the coamings in the cockpit.

I am very concerned about a 6' tether being too long, so I am faced with the dilemma of making a custom tether or buying a double 3'-6' one and using the short end wherever possible. I could also hedge my bets by clamping onto the windward jackline whenever possible, under the hypothesis that the most likely scenario of me going overboard is a wave carrying me over the leeward edge. That way I will probably be clamped to the most distant jackline before I go over. If I'm lucky I get stopped on the leeward side of the deck before I even make it over the side. In a strange way, this actually makes my boat's narrow beam and lack of side decks into an advantage, since it enables me to clamp onto the far side with an ordinary 6' jackline. I can even try clamping both the 3' and 6' ends on the high side of the boat, and only release the short one if I need the full 6' length to reach something further away.

As for the actual jackline, someone at the Catalina site suggested the below webbing (click the pic for a link), that matches the specs of West Marine's $75 jacklines. It does not have a sewn loop on one end like the WM lines, but I really don't understand the benefit of having one loop. If you need to tie the other end (which causes some loss of strength), you might as well tie both ends. And since I will cleat both off, the strength loss will only be about 15% (according to one of the Sail Delmarva links posted above). I'll also have 300' of webbing, so I can avoid UV damage by replacing it every time I sail if I want to. :laugher

​
By the way, if I go for this webbing, I will be selling off the excess to anyone who wants it. I really don't need to replace it every time I go sailing.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

jackdale said:


> If some one goes overboard when tethered. Stop the boat: heave-to (if they go off to leeward), go into irons, luff the sails.


Sure, that seems easy. But the fact is that several people have died that way, with the PFD inflating and preventing them to bread and some in boats with large race crews with lots of experienced guys on board.

At the light of the information of what has been happening, besides stooping the boat (and that is not easy going downwind with some wind), I will cut the tether off and send the guy away attached to a long line. Later I will recover him on the transom by the stair. Everybody is informed that this will be the procedure for not panic trying to old on to the boat.

Regards

Paulo


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

It is an interesting case he makes for softer tethers.

As a professional climber, I am all about safety and have taken more than a few classes in it. I know on a man or scissors lift, the idea of the tether is not to stop your fall, but to stop you from falling in the first place. It seems to me this would be the same aboard a boat. It is not that you want to slow your fall, but that you do not want to get washed overboard in the first place.

I can tell you that in theatre, we use rope as our jack lines. He mentions that using rope can confuse it with running rigging. I think the short sightedness in that thinking is that you can get rope in many different colours. If all your lines are natural or white.. choose a red or a blue as your jack line. You want something that stands out so you can't miss it.

By all means, install a screamer, I would use a tether that lets you have the jackline along the center of the boat and lets you reach the toerail, but no further and use locking beeners. I prefer the ones where you have to squeeze a trigger before you can pull back the clip. Easier to use than twist and safer


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

think you got it pegged. webbing looks great. like the seats in the stern pulpit maybe just loop the 6' one around jackline and attach back on yourself if youre worried about length. hope you never fall off your boat so this is just a precaution.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

What I would do on that C25 is run a single jack line from the edge of the companionway slider (near the winch) and tie it off around the master (using a water knot). Then run a second line from a padeye on the vertical edge of the bridge deck (near the bottom) and out to a padeye on the transom. We did this on a 36 foot ULDB to good effect (a boat not much beamier than your Catalina). Your six foot tether will then get you to the bow if needed and you would give you the freedom to move around the cockpit. This mobility becomes more important once you add a second or third crewmember into the mix.

I personally been partially overboard twice in the past 30 years. Both times on race boats, once from the bow and the other from the helm. On the bow, lost my balance while doing a headsail peel and using both hands to take in sail (the “one hand for the ship” is a really important rule). I slid through the life lines and caught a “cheese cutter” line in the crotch which arrested my slide. Our bow man pulled me back on board. From the helm, let’s just say, the open class boats are wide open back there (funny story). Others that I’ve known who have gone over were due to balance issues and not getting flushed by a wave. The big problem with boarding waves is they will set off the pill activated auto inflators. Either switch to manual fire or carry extra re-arming kits in your bag. It has happened twice to me also.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Overstock.com has an inflatable harness/PFD combo with a comfy looking neck for $143. You'd have to buy it sight unseen but it's another idea to consider.
Overstock PFD








*EDIT Oops, I forgot the link. Link is now added here in this edit:*Overstock.com PFD-harness

MedSailor


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> Let's talk about my specific boat for a few seconds:


I'd suggest simply going with a tether fixed to the base of the mast, long enough to reach back to the cockpit... Clip into it when going forward, it will give you full mobility on deck, can be shortened up when working at the mast... I've gone to such a setup on my 30-footer, I find it FAR better than anything to do with jacklines on boats of that size... Add another tether dedicated for cockpit use, of course...



TakeFive said:


> I'm also thinking of this tether, which seems to have some nice features. Comments on this?:
> 
> ​


I used the double tether for a few years, and found I preferred the single... KISS, one often never knows what to do with the unused portion, and the tendency is often to loop it around one's neck... BAD idea, of course...

And I'm probably in the minority on this, but I would NEVER use a tether with a snap shackle at the harness attachment point while singlehanding, instead of the double-action style hooks at the outboard end... I understand the arguments in favor of them, but they are far outweighed by the risk of an accidental/inadvertent release, IMHO...


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Take Five

There is nothing that says your jackline has to follow the deck. I have been on a boat that was rigged with a a jackline that was attached to the shrouds about 5 feet off the deck at a mid point. I cannot remember what the attachment mechanism looked like. But it was a good idea. Just mount it so that the jackline does not interfere with your boom as you come off the wind.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> And I'm probably in the minority on this, but I would NEVER use a tether with a snap shackle at the harness attachment point while singlehanding, instead of the double-action style hooks at the outboard end... I understand the arguments in favor of them, but they are far outweighed by the risk of an accidental/inadvertent release, IMHO...


I have a buddy who cuts the loop on the quick release to avoid the inadvertent release. I have never has one accidentally release.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I'd also like to order a strobe that clips on the PFD bladder, but not sure which of the many ones to order. What strobe do you have? I see from Mustang's photos that there is a little strap on the inflatable bladder to hold a strobe on the left shoulder. Which model strobe fits there the best?


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## Joel H. (Sep 9, 2012)

This is just random input. 
I use 1" tubular webbing, (like many!). My starboard and port jacklines run from the stem fitting back, inboard of the shrouds, to the top-front of the cockpit-combing on each side (As it would happen, the P.O. had mounted T-tracks there, for racing). Using track sliders, they make great termination points. Also you can really tension the jacklines by adjusting the sliders back.
On my size boat (C27), using a 4'-5' tether ,I can clip into ether jackline and have full run from stem to rudder post.
All that works great!
But, because I have read that a lone sailor, (that's me, most of the time) being dragged along beside or behind the boat, can have a real problem (read: imposable) reboarding, I still feel less than secure! Any thoughts here would be appreciated. 
Thanks in advance,
Joel H.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

A few thoughts, responding to several posts:

* I do use rope jacklines as I find them easier to work with and last longer in the sun. I do not run them on the deck, so they are not an underfoot hazard. The type of rope (stretch) must be matched to the boat; there is no one-size-fits-all.
* I prefer webbing for tethers. That is where I got visual confusion (just me perhaps) and webbing is lighter.
* I can't imagine cutting a tether loose and then fetching the swimmer. Very likely fatal at night. Simpler (and tested at speed in MOB drills) is to tie a second line to the harness before you cut the tether; then they drift behind the boat and are easily retrieved. A lift can also be used at that point.
* 3' can be too long for some smaller boats, particularly on the side decks. Who said you needed to be able to stand? Either custom or tie a loop to shorten.
* Some clip the 2nd leg to their harness d-rings, deactivating the quick release function. Oops.
* Some harness/PFD combinations have made the quick-release IMPOSSIBLE to reach once inflated (Practical Sailor Testing).
* Test hang from the harness to check the fit. Is it on the lower ribs (can't breath)? Will it slide off over the foulies? How's the crotch strap? Maybe this is the time to shorten the tether!


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> I'd also like to order a strobe that clips on the PFD bladder, but not sure which of the many ones to order. What strobe do you have? I see from Mustang's photos that there is a little strap on the inflatable bladder to hold a strobe on the left shoulder. Which model strobe fits there the best?


That is actually a manual inflation tube. ACR makes a strobe that fits over it.










The clip on the bottom attaches to the bottom of the pfd. When the pfd inflates it pulls out a tab and starts the strobe.

That is what I have.

While wearing a tether, also have a knife on a lanyard that can sever the tether if need be. There are lots of discussions about which one is best. I use a Wichard rigging knife. I keep it and a small Mag light with a red lens in a case on the belt of the pfd.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

If you are going to use a maglight.. do yourself a favour and get one of the new LED ones. They are smaller, lighter, brighter, and last longer on their batteries


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

JonEisberg said:


> I used the double tether for a few years, and found I preferred the single... KISS, one often never knows what to do with the unused portion, and the tendency is often to loop it around one's neck... BAD idea, of course...


you can leave both tethers attached to the jackline. It is what we do when climbing truss. You only ever detach one when hooking onto another


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

pdqaltair said:


> A few thoughts, responding to several posts:
> 
> * I do use rope jacklines as I find them easier to work with and last longer in the sun. I do not run them on the deck, so they are not an underfoot hazard. The type of rope (stretch) must be matched to the boat; there is no one-size-fits-all.
> * I prefer webbing for tethers. That is where I got visual confusion (just me perhaps) and webbing is lighter.
> ...


This is all very helpful to me, since I have zero experience with offshore, harnesses, or tethers. But reading these comments helps me "think through" the experience of falling overboard on a tether - something that I hope I never have to actually do.

I had not thought about attaching a messenger line to an overboard passenger before cutting loose from the tether. That practice needs to be permanently etched in my mind for future reference. I also need to make sure to have such a line available in the cockpit in rough weather, and maybe at all times.

In rough conditions I would crawl to the foredeck on my boat, especially since I need to go to the cabin roof with no sidedecks. So a shorter tether is likely more appropriate. Shortening the tether also reduces the fall distance, might prevent the PFD bladder from inflating (a good thing, since it will interfere with reboarding or cutting loose), and could eliminate the need for elastic to take up the slack. Now I need to decide whether to just make something up custom and save my money on the fancy Kong tether.

Clipping the 2nd loop to the harness does not completely eliminate the release-under-load benefit of the hinged shackle, as long as you remember to first release the 2nd loop first (while it's not under load), then release the hinged shackle last. But remembering to do that "in the heat of the moment" is questionable. And since those large clips require some strength and dexterity, it might not be easy to do while hanging from a boat, and while obstructed by an inflated bladder (if you're dangling in the water).

I'm starting to see some potential benefit to a short course that might take me though these scenarios.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

jackdale said:


> That is actually a manual inflation tube. ACR makes a strobe that fits over it.


I was not referring to the black manual inflation tube. I was referring to the yellow plastic band in the shoulder area. If you look closely at the picture, you will see it.

That yellow band looks like it has a hole through which your strobe light would poke out. Is that where your light is mounted?


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## paperbird (Sep 1, 2011)

Hmm - tried to find the Overstock.com offering to evaluate it but no luck. Anyone find it or is it already gone?

thanks


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

It's why I would suggest you take you jack line down the center of the boat. The three foot tether will not allow me to go over the side, except near the bow where it narrows. I don't however have the jack line all the way forward. It stops before the anchor locker.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Joel H. said:


> But, because I have read that a lone sailor, (that's me, most of the time) being dragged along beside or behind the boat, can have a real problem (read: imposable) reboarding, I still feel less than secure! Any thoughts here would be appreciated.
> Thanks in advance,
> Joel H.


If single handing, I avoid using the auto pilot and I always trim the boat for a little weather helm. If you take you hands off the helm (or go overboard) the boat will head up and go into irons, It might also heave-to. Either way the boat is stopped.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

FYI, I have postponed my Defender order because I may need more bottom paint. (It took more to coat my boat today than I expected. Need to wait and see how the second coat goes on tommorrow.)

So I have some more time to mull over harness/tether decisions. I've gotten some great advice here on what to get and how to deploy it, so keep the suggestions coming. Obviously some of the suggestions contradict others, so I can't follow all of them. But I can combine suggestions into a hybrid approach that fits my boat. For example, right now I think I'm going to get a dual tether and run dual jacklines down the sides of the boat. If I have to work near the mast, I'll clip the 6' end onto the jackline to windward while I go forward, and the 3' tether to the base of the mast once I get there. If I need to work near the bow, I'll clip the 3' end to the windward jackline, and the 6' tether to the mast, unless I need to go all the way to the pulpit which is 9' from the mast, so there I'd need to use just jacklines.

In addition to buying a top-quality tether, I may build my own that's shoter than 3' for specialized needs.

I also tried to call about the MTAM safety course, but it conflicts with my planned launch date and with a commitment my wife has (I want us to be trained as a team), so I may have to wait until next year.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

jackdale said:


> Take Five
> 
> There is nothing that says your jackline has to follow the deck. I have been on a boat that was rigged with a a jackline that was attached to the shrouds about 5 feet off the deck at a mid point. I cannot remember what the attachment mechanism looked like. But it was a good idea. Just mount it so that the jackline does not interfere with your boom as you come off the wind.


 I agree and I think that it makes sense to have them away from the lifelines. I am installing permanent jacklines on my boat, they run over the cabin to be as faraway from the lifelines as possible. Because I sail with the dinghy forward to the mast, I run a central jackline from the mast, over the dinghy to a strong fixing in the bow. The dingy is strongly connected to the boat by multiple attachments. The idea is to have enough space to move (without a very short tether) and eliminating all possibility to fall overboard.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Joel H. said:


> ...
> But, because I have read that a lone sailor, (that's me, most of the time) being dragged along beside or behind the boat, can have a real problem (read: imposable) reboarding, I still feel less than secure! Any thoughts here would be appreciated.
> Thanks in advance,
> Joel H.


There is a French gadget that effectively can put you on the boat even sailing solo. There is on the net somewhere a movie showing it at work.

I think that the main objective is eliminating the possibility to fall overboard.

Regards

Paulo


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

PCP said:


> I agree and I think that it makes sense to have them away from the lifelines. I am installing permanent jacklines on my boat, they run over the cabin to be as faraway from the lifelines as possible. Because I sail with the dinghy forward to the mast, I run a central jackline from the mast, over the dinghy to a strong fixing in the bow. The dingy is strongly connected to the boat by multiple attachments. The idea is to have enough space to move (without a very short tether) and eliminating all possibility to fall overboard.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Agree 100%


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> FYI, I have postponed my Defender order because I may need more bottom paint. (It took more to coat my boat today than I expected. Need to wait and see how the second coat goes on tommorrow.)
> 
> So I have some more time to mull over harness/tether decisions. I've gotten some great advice here on what to get and how to deploy it, so keep the suggestions coming. Obviously some of the suggestions contradict others, so I can't follow all of them. But I can combine suggestions into a hybrid approach that fits my boat.* For example, right now I think I'm going to get a dual tether and run dual jacklines down the sides of the boat*. If I have to work near the mast, I'll clip the 6' end onto the jackline to windward while I go forward, and the 3' tether to the base of the mast once I get there. If I need to work near the bow, I'll clip the 3' end to the windward jackline, and the 6' tether to the mast, unless I need to go all the way to the pulpit which is 9' from the mast, so there I'd need to use just jacklines.
> 
> ...


So if you get hit by a wave or the boom and your jackline is along either side of the boat and the teather is either 6 ft or 3 ft what prevents you from going through the lifelines and into the water or hanging off the boat close to the water. Clipping to windward when a boat is pitching side to side doesnt insure anythiing as the windward may not be the direction the motion throwing you off the boat is from, it may be a wall of water moving you toward windward. It may also be incredibly awkward clipping to windward if you have to work on the lee side of the boat.

Even if placed along the side it should be within the rigging and along the coach roof. Thought also must be given for clipping in once up the companionway and around the dodger if one is present without being totally unclipped.

Most people walk up the gunwhales so this will be under your feet

I prefer my Jackline to be fairly taught. Thats easy to do in a straight line.

Before you rig this way I strongly suggest you take the safety course and observe others so as not to waste money.I would also rig some temporarily both down the sides and also centerline once you have the teather and practice.

IMHO there is no windward/ leeward when there is something which needs to be fixed. Its usually better to go the indward side because its higher, but in rough pitching seas, that may not make a difference


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

jackdale said:


> I do wear an inflatable pfd with a harness, at all times. I use that tether, I like a quick release. I had one fail and WM replaced it for free.


I'm hoping the quick release failed, not the tether?!


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

The suggestions here are very helpful for general use. But some of them cannot be implemented on my current boat (but I'll remember them for my next boat). For instance, putting anchor points on the centerline behind the anchor locker will be impossible since the V-berth hatch is directly behind with no solid deck in between (refer to my pic above to see for yourself). Similarly, directly behind the mast is a hinged pop-top (could never endure the stress of a D-ring) and a sliding companionway hatch directly behind that. Even placing D-rings at the centerline in the cockpit is fraught with problems. For instance, the fuel locker in the stern, where I might be tempted to put a D-ring just above the cockpit sole, is made of pretty thin fiberglass, so not sure it would withstand the stress. And I forgot about the steering pedestal, which would interfere too.

Elevating the jacklines above the cabin top is probably not feasible for this boat. The boom is a little over 5' above the cockpit sole, and cockpit lifelines are about 4' above cockpit sole, rising to about 5' at the cabin top (refer to pic above and other Catalina 250 pics to see why). Yes, the boom barely passes above the lifeline when mainsheet is let out for running.

One thing that does help me is the narrow beam of this relatively small boat, and the fact that there are no side decks. I need to go do final measurements, but if I run a jackline on each side from front cleats to stern, inside the rigging and on the cabin top, they will be about 5-6' apart amidships. This means that I could clip onto the jacklines on both sides and be assured of not going overboard. The jacklines would be more like 7' apart in the cockpit, so in certain parts of the cockpit I could clip both sides as well. Obviously clipping on both sides complicates moving forward past the mainsheet, vang, mast, etc., but it is possible and with a double tether I would always be clipped with one momentarily while moving the second one.

I will have a lot of time to experiment before I consider singlehanding, and do remember that I sail in well protected waters, so this is truly worst case scenario planning. Right now I'm focused on painting my bottom, but as soon as I am able to step my mast and clear the deck I will be able to start running some temporary jacklines as a test and doing some measurements. I am confident that I will come up with an arrangement that minimizes the risk of ever going overboard.

Thanks for all of your help.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Guess I see this differently.
1. When single or with crew 95+% of the time boat is balanced and trimmed(goes faster- less work steering) and is on autopilot (or vane on prior boats) . Steer only getting in and out of harbors and in traffic
2. Therefore issue is to
A.not to fall off the boat or 
B. be able to self rescue.

Boat is 13 1/2 feet accross. go up wind ward side if going to bow. Use second arm of tether to go under bow pulpit and then over,then back down to jack line.or use bow cleat. leave short arm attached to windward. Realize can go over to wind which is why use short arm. Measurements show if go over lifelines allows self rescue easily under will be a bit of work but do-able with adrenaline running.
If going to leeward - one arm to mast pulpit or housetop handholds other to jackline. Try to have tethers tight pulling on me while working. Little or no distance to fall. stable can use both hands.

In big seas not above crawling with one hand on handrails on house other on lower lifeline or the jackline.

Have had to time my breathing when working at bow as seas go over and I float off the deck. Have leaned on tension of tethers while working to leeward. Tethers keep me on the boat.

Everone should rig the jacklines and go through the senerio at all places on the deck as to what would happen on their boat if they fell to the right or left- forward or backward. Adjust as necessary for YOUR BOAT.

Have knives but think they are usually not going to be much help. Can't image swimming after a boat going 8-10Kts. or even 3-4Kts. is going to be much help. Strobe is worthless offshore by yourself. Staying on the boat seems a better and better idea. Getting dragged behind the boat by any kind of line seems like just a faster way to drown.

Would NEVER get a pdf wth a pill. Risk of accidental inflation too high.

Just my thoughts. Bow to superior intelligence and experience. 

P.S. think the stress marker a good idea. Have had it pulled out and only noticed after the cruise was over.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

paperbird said:


> Hmm - tried to find the Overstock.com offering to evaluate it but no luck. Anyone find it or is it already gone?
> 
> thanks


OOPS! Photo without a link. It wasn't my intention to tease.

Link to Overstock.com PFD-Harness

MedSailor


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

*PDQaltair's comments on the shock absorption issue must not be dismissed. *

As a climber myself, I am shocked that the basic physics of a fall on a static line are not appropriately addressed with current tethers. My current home-made tether includes a screamer, but there is an alternative to the screamer...

In europe there is a climbing style called 



 that involves climbing a mix of rope, and re-bar rungs that resemble a ladder. The climber ascends the ladder/rock mix using what looks exactly like a double yacht tether. An important difference between this style and conventional rock climbing is that there is NO ROPE. The climber climbs hundreds of feet using only a double yacht tether tied to his harness. If he falls the tether and harness catch him, and of course, all the tethers have shock absorbers built in. Many use screamers, but KONG makes a reusable shock absorber. The shock absorber uses friction going through a plate. Sailors may recognize the plate as a familiar concept similar to the Wichard Gybe'n'easy.

Kong KISA:KONG - Carabiners, Climbing Gear & Safety Equipment (.Doc.408)

















Via Ferata Tether: (This would work GREAT as a yacht tether)









MedSailor


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

what a great idea Med Sailor thank you so much. Would probably loop up the spare line and run a little electrical tape or rubber band around it. Only problem is device would effectively lengthen the tether so will need to re think how to run jacklines and clip on when moving about. 

What a beautiful place. Thanks for sharing.


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

What is a "screamer" in the context of tethers?

Great thread, w/ lots of good ideas about critical life-saving equipment (tethers, jacklines) that those who do not (yet) go offshore seldom consider. Or at least, this noob hasn't before. Thanks to all.


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## Joel H. (Sep 9, 2012)

PCP said:


> There is a French gadget that effectively can put you on the boat even sailing solo. There is on the net somewhere a movie showing it at work.
> 
> I think that the main objective is eliminating the possibility to fall overboard.
> 
> ...


Any name of _le gadgette_ , or title to search? I agree, I should adjust my system to keep me on the boat. But now I'm curious. _Viva la difference_


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

joebeach said:


> What is a "screamer" in the context of tethers?


Yates SCREAMERS

I have zero experience, so not qualified to comment. But hey, it's the Internet, so since when has that stopped anyone? :laugher So here goes:

Everything is a compromise. The screamer damps your fall when you reach the end of your tether in a free fall. That's great for mountain climbing, where you could really fall a distance. But it looks to me like the screamer lengthens your tether a bit (a foot or more?). That extra length could be the difference between holding you on the deck or dangling in the water. Also, if your tether is sized and attached at the right place, it should keep you from ever experiencing a free fall, so the screamer should not be needed. So I suspect the minuses may outweigh the pluses for using a screamer in a marine application.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

It is difficult to work with a short tether. There are accounts of solo sailors who have been seriously injured by their fall on a static line and even though they did not hit the water they were injured by contact with the rail/hull of the boat and suspended in a position from they could not extricate themselves. It would seem to increase the chances of suffering a serious head or back injury. Of course, there are also accounts of sailors who have drowned while dragging on a tether, or who are unable to get back onboard the boat after falling in the water.

My best chances of not falling and injuring myself are to have a sufficiently long tether to allow me to work unhindered and to allow me to use my natural balance to prevent myself from falling in the first place. A longer tether also allows one to use one's hands to break a fall, instead of slamming one's side or back against an immovable object. A dynamic jackline that allows one to run freely to the stern of the boat seems to be the method least likely to result in an injury from the fall. I have pulled myself back on a boat from that position. Everyone who uses this method should practice being dragged behind the boat and re-boarding. I suspect a healthy, fit, flexible, uninjured sailor (not overweight or out of shape), pumped full of adrenalin from a fall will be back on the boat in no time. If you are not fit and/or are overweight, or can not do a pull-up, then, yes, under no circumstances should you ever plan on reboarding the boat once you hit the water on a tether.

I was involved in sport climbing, also, and I would not want to fall any distance on a static line, no matter how good the harness is. If you are wearing a harness with crotch straps, you might want to say goodbye to the family jewels and not plan on ever having any more kids. If the family jewels survive, you are likely to dislocate your back or shoulders and suffer a concusion when you head slams into the rail. Remember, if you fall on a static line, the rope will pull you short and be directing your body position in the fall, so you will not be breaking your fall with your hands and knees.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

TakeFive said:


> Yates SCREAMERS
> 
> I have zero experience, so not qualified to comment. But hey, it's the Internet, so since when has that stopped anyone? :laugher So here goes:
> 
> Everything is a compromise. The screamer damps your fall when you reach the end of your tether in a free fall. That's great for mountain climbing, where you could really fall a distance. But it looks to me like the screamer lengthens your tether a bit (a foot or more?). That extra length could be the difference between holding you on the deck or dangling in the water. Also, if your tether is sized and attached at the right place, it should keep you from ever experiencing a free fall, so the screamer should not be needed. So I suspect the minuses may outweigh the pluses for using a screamer in a marine application.


Yes and I no. I use Screamers on a daily basis working. They have about 6 feet of webbing in them, believe or not, but are designed to break away in a controlled manner. Put X amount of breaking force into them, then only Y amount of webbing will come undone. Generally they are designed for vertical fall arrest work where they come apart in a smooth and Linier manner that can slow a 200 pound guy from an uncontrolled fall into a controlled and near painless descent that will not damage internal organs or fracture vertibre.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> Yates SCREAMERS
> 
> I have zero experience, so not qualified to comment. But hey, it's the Internet, so since when has that stopped anyone? :laugher So here goes:
> 
> Everything is a compromise. The screamer damps your fall when you reach the end of your tether in a free fall. That's great for mountain climbing, where you could really fall a distance. But it looks to me like the screamer lengthens your tether a bit (a foot or more?). That extra length could be the difference between holding you on the deck or dangling in the water. Also, if your tether is sized and attached at the right place, it should keep you from ever experiencing a free fall, so the screamer should not be needed. So I suspect the minuses may outweigh the pluses for using a screamer in a marine application.


In the original post on the subject I gave several links that contained the fall/wave calculations. Be thrown horizontally across the deck by a wave imparts the same fall speed that a 6' fall does (about 8 knots). That is why the sailors broke their tethers and ribs. It is not hard to imagine being thrown at 8 knots. Thus, it is a mistake to equate impact only with falls. any situation with more than 3 feet of slack is potentially dangerous.

Sail Delmarva: The Case for Softer Tethers

Yes, there is extension length. However, the rip only triggers when the impact is over 500 pounds. I have been using one on my boat for a year, regularly allow it to take my weight, and nothing has ripped. Additionally, it only rips far enough to prevent injury; it will not rip the full length unless needed. I have also used them rock climbing for decades and never had one extend; yes, I fell on them, but never hard enough to trigger. You see, climbers use an elastic rope.

I think it is not that they don't make sense in a marine environment (climbers, OSHA and the military make universal use), it is that marine tethers have always been behind the times. Note that they just added warning flags to tethers, something OSHA has required for 2 decades.

Because the impact potential (less energy absorption) is a bit less in the marine environment I would argue for a shorter length. They are made in several energy capacities.

Might save a back injury. That's my reason.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I started writing blog posts on jacklines when I realized there were systems on boats that were understrength, and that they were common. Folks underestimated the tight-rope effect when using either steel cable or high mod line. I pulled a 5000-pound cable apart on a neighbor's deck with my hands; he had tight steel cable and no stretch.

I then looked at my own boat. The jackline set-up was good, but the tethers needed improvement. Eventually it occurred to me that there was one activity for which there was no commercial design that worked; fishing off the sugar scoops.

I love to fish for striped bass and blues, most often solo. This involves clipping to hard points (no jackline stretch) on the hard-top with a 6-foot tether and working around an open rail landing big fish, often more focused on the fish than my actions. A fall down the sugar scoop against a harness would easily break ribs. Reboarding, of course, is not a great hazard since the tether will hold you right at the ladder and the tether will not reach beyond the sugar scoop. But that is specifically why I use screamers and where I use them. I suspect many boats have one or 2 bad spots where a long stumble is possible.










5,000 pound bolt hanger


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Thanks, guys, for obliterating my skepticism on this topic. I am convinced that a Screamer is beneficial, especially if you're tethered to a fixed point that has no give.

How about if you're tethered to a synthetic (polyester or nylon) jackline? Does the guitar-string effect provide sufficient flex to avoid it? Or is this a situation where you do both for greater certainty that the harness won't break your ribs?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

OK, another question about integrated PFD/harnesses. It's pretty clear that if your PFD inflates, it can severely interfere with reboarding and/or releasing the shackle. I hear some people saying that the pill type devices are prone to accidental inflation (though I have not experienced this with my 3 pill-type PFDs). Mustang markets their HIT-type PFDs as not inflating until it is 4' underwater. In your experience, can you confirm that the HIT mechanism is measurably less prone to inadvertent inflation in a wet environment (like green water coming over the deck)?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

The first priority has to be keeping yourself *ON* the boat. Even with good jacklines, if you go over the side attached with a tether, your chances of getting back on are questionable. My jacklines run down both sides, full length which is very handy BUT I am going to change to just one center jackline from just forward of the dodger to the bow cleat. The aft padeye will have a tether permanently attached to allow getting past the dodger. This set up will prevent going over the side. With the 3' tether attached, there will not be enough length to be pitched over except maybe all the way forward.

I use either an inflatable with harness or a harness with a std. PFD or just a harness as in first image. It depends on the situation. If I am far offshore, the outcome of going over with a PFD, especially in cold water, is the same as going over without a PFD...so what's the point of being uncomfortable? The priority, as above, is STAY ON BOARD. If there is traffic that might see me bobbing around, I'll put a PFD on but will still adhere to the STAY ON THE BOAT policy.

I also have an emergency telescoping ladder on the transom with a pull ring. I have tried it in calm conditions and it would work if I fall in the water with a beer in my hand at anchor  but have no idea if it would be useful with the boat see-sawing in heavy water.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Not sure how to confirm it with experience, other than strictly anecdotally. I doubt anyone has experienced multiple failures in a variety of conditions to know. But one requires a pill to dissolve and the other requires pressure, so it stands to,reason that the pill would be more prone to failure from swamping.

Ironically, the more likely failure, which I have seen first hand, is it fails to inflate at all, even when activated.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> Thanks, guys, for obliterating my skepticism on this topic. I am convinced that a Screamer is beneficial, especially if you're tethered to a fixed point that has no give.
> 
> How about if you're tethered to a synthetic (polyester or nylon) jackline? Does the guitar-string effect provide sufficient flex to avoid it? Or is this a situation where you do both for greater certainty that the harness won't break your ribs?


A jackline provides plenty of shock absorption assuming it is polyester. Even with steel cable, the risk is system failure more than impact.
Sail Delmarva: Sample Calculations for Jackline Stress and Energy Absorption


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Not sure how to confirm it with experience, other than strictly anecdotally...


The more direct way to ask the question is, has anyone here actually had a pill-type PFD inflate when it should not have (aside from accidentally pulling the cord) due to rain or other transient water?

I'm still debating whether to get a separate harness for with my pill-type PFD (which is very comfortable) or upgrading to a Mustang HIT-type with D-rings. If the HIT provides a confirmed benefit (vs. theoretical speculation) it might seal the deal.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Don't the materials that come with the pill type actually say they are subject to accidental inflation?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Directly fom Mustang's AirForce FAQs.



> Will an automatic device inflate in the rain?
> 
> Not all automatic models use the same automatic inflator. AirForce ® by Mustang automatic inflation PFDs are designed so that they have to be immersed in water before the inflation mechanism can be set off. The device is, however, susceptible to accidental inflation if repeatedly exposed to a humid or damp environment


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Directly fom Mustang's AirForce FAQs.


In other words, "maybe." 

Is the Airforce a pill or HIT? IIRC, I've seen similar hedging for both types.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> In other words, "maybe."
> 
> Is the Airforce a pill or HIT? IIRC, I've seen similar hedging for both types.


I believe it's the pill type, I just grabbed a random one. I have an old pill tyoe WM branded pair that never get used and thought I recalled that in the literature.

They are all "maybe". Their literature just says less likely on the pressure type.

The maybe you should really worry about is whether any of them inflate at all. Be obsessive with maintenance.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Minnewaska said:


> I believe it's the pill type, I just grabbed a random one. ...
> They are all "maybe". Their literature just says less likely on the pressure type.
> 
> The maybe you should really worry about is whether any of them inflate at all. Be obsessive with maintenance.


The pill type is much less safer in what regards accidental deployment but also much cheaper in what regards maintenance. Look at this guy (039):






Regards

Paulo


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

I have no personal experience with activation of automatic inflatable PFDs because I wouldn't have one aboard my boat. I know I'm in the minority here, but I'll try and explain why I thing auto-inflation is a useless feature and potentially dangerous.

1: Is there any benefit to auto-inflation? The main stated benefit of the auto-inflation feature is that it will inflate if you go overboard unconscious. True, it will inflate if you're unconscious, *but you are still dead.* Most of the inflatable PFDs put the unconscious victim's mouth/nose FOUR INCHES above the water. Since you're unconscious you can't protect your airway. If a couple of >4" waves come along (like during your rescue) you drown. Mustang survival has created a $400 exotic inflatable vest that they brag will keep your mouth "up to" 9" above the water. Still not much. For me, the "benefit" of helping an unconscious victim survive is a myth. Therefore, they have no benefit over manual inflation that I can see.

2: Is there any downside to auto-inflation? I would say yes in both safety and expense/convenience. I feel comfortable as a swimmer in the water, and I might like to be able to swim as part of affecting my own rescue. I can imagine (rare) scenarios like an upturned dinghy, or being caught in lines underwater, where the inflation could lead to your drowning. More likely, I imagine scenarios like falling overboard and wanting to be able to swim over to the MOB pole, cushion, or line/lifesling that was thrown to you before activating your flotation. Swimming with an inflatable PFD is not like swimming with a type III. They turn you on your back and make it nearly impossible to swim. Not being able to swim immediately to help your own rescue make the auto-inflate vests more dangerous in my book.

Then there is the downside of maintenance and accidental inflation. Accidental inflation happens, often. I worked at a West Marine for a summer to pillage their discount during a refit (highly recommended) and on the days I worked we sold a dozen re-arming kits over a the summer. I asked EVERY PERSON I sold one to how it inflated. All were accidental/unintended, though more than half were from wet gear in a bag (often destroying the bag). Buying and replacing the re-arm kits, keeping a supply of them aboard (and keeping them dry!) during a tropical cruise, sounds like a pain, and an expensive one. Having one go off on you while you're working (like a fellow racer in the Round the County 2011) on deck doesn't sound good either.

Long live manual inflation! If I had to pay more for manual inflation as a feature, I would.

MedSailor


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> [...]


Very well put. I have a couple of manual lifevests, and I figured that although they won't save me if unconscious, they won't accidently go off. However, I hadn't thought of it to such detail as you put it in your posts.

I guess wearing a skater helmet if really tossing about might actually be better (getting bashed into a pulpit or coaming) than an auto-inflate lifevest. Not that you'll catch me wearing a helmet under normal circumstances.

In any case, I'll stick with my manual ones.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

A British sailing magazine did tests on harnesses, by traveling at 4 knots and having the person in them jump overboard. The shock from the tug, when the tether came tight, was minimal. ,With the tether attached to the chest, the person being towed had such a huge bow wave build up in front of him, that it was impossible for him to breath and it threatened to drown him quickly. That happened in a recent Farallons race, and the person drowned before his crew could slow the boat down enough for him to breath, or get his head above his own bow wave. That should have resulted in a law suit against the manufacturer of the harness. They would be building them very differently today, had that happened. It's just a matter of time before such an incident results in a huge law suit. 
Next they tried attaching the tether to the back of the harness. That kept the occupant alive , but made it impossible for him to pull himself back in.
Then they tried attaching the tether to the shoulder. That not only allowed the occupant to breath , but it also allowed him to pull himself back in. That was the best option, the one I use.
Manufacturers of safety harnesses don't do any such testing, they just copy what everyone else does.
I have eliminated the D rings, for a lashing, as they are far more comfortable in your bunk. Attaching the tether to the top of the shoulder also stops it from digging into you when you are single handed, and in your bunk on a squally night.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

the jacklines i have been seeing out here have been poorly planned as they are continuing to be placed along sides, not in centerline....is gonna do no good. over--gone. you will not be coming back up unless you have very very good folks--plural--on board to get you out of water. go into water is death. make sure your jacklines do not allow you to go over the side.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

zeehag said:


> the jacklines i have been seeing out here have been poorly planned as they are continuing to be placed along sides, not in centerline....is gonna do no good. over--gone. you will not be coming back up unless you have very very good folks--plural--on board to get you out of water. go into water is death. make sure your jacklines do not allow you to go over the side.


How do you get your jacklines on your centreline to go around or thru your mast , wheelhouse, dingy on deck , dodger, etc? A tether short enough to stop you from going under the lifelines, especially on the lee deck of a well heeled boat would be so short, you would have to go forward with your chest within 6 inches of the deck. You couldn't stand up to do anything. 
Great armchair theory, but impossible in the real world ( Like so many armchair theories)


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

as i have 2 masts, that is no problem. my beam is 12 ft at centerpoint on hull,and lines are 6 ft length. my boat also has no problem in seas or winds. decks are wide and flat and handrails along the coach house roof -- i do not rely on lifelines as they are nisnamed.

ps..cruising formosas heel only 5 percent in a 60 kt wind under jib and jigger. very sea worthy.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

By the way, I was down at the boat to paint the bottom today. I went up top and measured the distance between the chainplates. It is exactly 5'. So if I run jacklines down each side, just inside the chainplates, I'll be able to do most anything on the cabin top, either sitting or on my knees, by clipping a 6'x3 'dual tether onto both jacklines. I just need to decide which side of the boat I need to be, and clip the 3' end to the nearest tether and the 6' on to the furthest tether. Sounds like whichever way I fall, I would be restrained on board or about a foot off the side. If I need to stand up, I could find an elevated point to clip the 3 footer, like somewhere around the gooseneck.

Obviously I need to do some tests at the dock to see if this is workable. But the boat is so narrow that even if I could run a center jackline (and I prevously described some reasons it would not be feasible along the cabin top), it would take an awful short tether to keep me aboard - probably too short to be able to work.

I can see how a center jackline would be beneficial in the cockpit, and I'm going to have to figure out that one.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Zeehag
5% in 60 knot winds? I'll believe that when I see it. Or you are grossly under canvased.
Having to take your tether off every 6 feet is extremely dangerous in rough conditions.l


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

i will purposefully under-canvas when sailing in areas affected by chubascos and papagayos and other lovely opportunities for a formosa ketch to actually SAIL.
yes, 5 degrees. 8.4 kts. measured 60 kt chubasco.


i do not run full canvas on my west coast sailing adventures. no reason to.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

5 degrees on a broad reach is believable , but not to windward. Not a chance!


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

i avoid sailing to weather. i appreciate and like my boat--i dont try to kill her by doing or trying to do that which only airplanes are able to achieve.


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

So, basically, you don't foresee having to beat to windward at any time under any circumstances?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Brent Swain said:


> How do you get your jacklines on your centreline to go around or thru your mast , wheelhouse, dingy on deck , dodger, etc? A tether short enough to stop you from going under the lifelines, especially on the lee deck of a well heeled boat would be so short, you would have to go forward with your chest within 6 inches of the deck. You couldn't stand up to do anything.
> Great armchair theory, but impossible in the real world ( Like so many armchair theories)


I hear what you're saying Brent, but all you need to do is to stop your torso from going over the gunwale. On a very short end of a double tether when moving fore and aft, I think this can be done. Once you're at the mast, tying in is no problem because you can loop the tether up high. Up at the bow, it may be possible to triangulate with a third line attached to the windward side. You may well be right but I'm definitely going to experiment around with the best way to minimize the possibility of going overboard. I don't care if I have to crawl on hands and knees close to a jackline while moving to where I need to go when the boat is bouncing around at night.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

One said:


> So, basically, you don't foresee having to beat to windward at any time under any circumstances?


only if land is 50 ft from me to leeward..lol--then i use my engine.

in real time cruising, in over 10,000 miles(which doesnt count pre 2008--i been sailing since age 7, in the 50s), i have yet to HAVE to beat to windward. the guy i sailed with in gom LIKED to do that, but i have found no realistic reason to bash either my boat nor my body into weather. is a futile and useless thing to do . yes i have done it, and no, there is no reason to have to do that penance.
good sailing is knowing how not to have to do the bash for no reason on this earth is it necessary.


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

zeehag said:


> only if land is 50 ft from me to leeward..lol--then i use my engine.
> 
> in real time cruising, i nover 10,000 miles, i have yet to HAVE to beat to windward. the guy i sailed with in gom LIKED to do that, but i have found no realistic reason to bash either my boat nor my body into weather. is a futile and useless thing to do . yes i have done it, and no, there is no reason to have to do that penance.
> good sailing is knowing how not to have to do the bash for no reason on this earth is it necessary.


Seems awfully limiting. I take it you then change course if local weather makes the wind come from a different corner too.

In my mind, boats are made to beat to windward, some do it better than others. 
But, seriously, if you're only doing broad reaches, almost any boat will not heel any more than 5 degrees. Hell, I can do that in my sailing dinghy, hands free.

I seriously think that makes you special, so special in fact, that it seems the discussion of life lines and jackstays are completely irrelevant to you.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Twice I was in Tonga wanting to get back to BC, 5,000 miles, the first 4,000 to windward. Anything which wouldn't mean going to windward was a tripling of the distance. I sailed non stop last time. Good cruising boats get you where you want to go, they don't dictate where you may go.
Any tether on a side deck lifeline on a well heeled, rail down boat, wont stop you from going over the rail under the lifelines. Having to take it off to do anything is far more dangerous than a longer tether. 
At my mast, I have lifeline with a snap on the end, which will stop me from reaching the deck or anything hard ,should I slip. I snap it on my harness when reefing, etc.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Back on the topic of harnesses and PFDs:

I would like to put in a pitch for the humble foam type III pfd combined with a traditional webbing harness.









*+*










*=*










In hot climates, the foam PFDs may not be the best, but many of us sail in less than tropical conditions and I believe they offer the following advantages:

*1:* The foam PFD adds a lot of insulation and can easily be layered over, or under follies for added warmth.

*2:* The type III can not (realistically) malfunction with its primary purpose. Flotation. No triggering device to corrode, no bladder to puncture.

*3:* You can swim effectively in one of these, allowing you to participate in your own rescue.

*4:* They can be easily integrated with a traditional webbing harness at little expense. It doesn't take much imagination to figure out how to thread the harness though some of the Type III buckle loops and make your own combo PFD/harness at low cost.

*5:* The foam protects your ribs and vital organs from your harness. If you do take a huge fall onto your harness, the foam will help spread the load and prevent you from cracking ribs, or worse. Speaking of which, how well do those "one size fits all" inflatable harnesses fit you? If they're below the ribs you risk a ruptured spleen or lacerated liver.

*6:* The foam protects your ribs and vital organs from other falls. Tether falls notwithstanding you can easily fall on a pitching, wet deck and your torso may contact the deckhouse, cockpit seat, or even a winch. Again the foam padding may protect you.

*7:* Comfort. Sometimes I end up wedged in some uncomfortable part of the boat, especially when racing. I'm often curled up on my side on the rail, with a piece of deck hardware poking into my ribs, or leaning against stainless lifelines. The foam PFD makes these uncomfortable positions much more bearable.

As cool and space age as the sub $500 Spinlock harnesses look, give the good old type III and webbing harness a second look.

MedSailor

PS One makes an excellent point about wearing a helmet. Many sailors talk about (and spend extra money and maintenance time) trying to mitigate for the possibility of going overboard unconscious. Automatic inflation is the wrong approach, as I have outlined before.

Obviously not going overboard first is the most important step (tether) but since it may happen, instead of spending the money so that the unconscious (and likely drowned) victim floats, why not spend the money and effort on a helmet, so that he's not unconscious in the first place? If we really do fear this scenario (I don't), it seems like a much better mitigation strategy.

A dock-mate of mine (a neurosurgeon I believe)used to race his J-boat single handed. He always wore a helmet. The America's Cup cat racers are also wearing helmets now too.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

brent--one does not have to unhook to go from stern to bow and back to stern on my boat even when going all the way around the boat in a full circle. i sail a ketch. i do not sail out and back daysails. there is no back--only out.

where i am, which is not pnw by any stretch, is paradise. we talking no weather problems until furycame season. then there is a problem. until then--no problema. no headwinds and no bashing . in gom, there was always a choice--bash or sail in comfort to a destination. i do not foresee me taking the bash path if there is a respectable choice. i will not be going to pnw nor will i be sailing in coldville, anywhere on this earth. 

there is no need to beat to windward here.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

For those who would like to get the jackline off the deck, C.S. Johnson makes a Jackline Fairlead that attaches to shrouds (and possibly a backstay) to get your jackline off the deck, thus possibly negating the issue of length of tethers vs. distance to edge of deck. It is item 49-100.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

A question for inshore/near shore sailors....when do you deploy the jackline and when do you take it in? Same question of off-shore sailors.

Most people seem to use webbing or tubular webbing for jacklines, but leaving these out for extended time (unless you replace them frequently) could give a surprise in use after UV degregation sets in. I read where one experienced sailor used 1/2" nylon double braid (typically ~8400 lbs. breakstrength) as his jacklines. Nylon to give some stretch to absorb shock and make it easier on the body, and double braid so that he could leave the jacklines always in place...the idea being that the outer cover would take the UV degregration, and the inter line would retain the strength to serve as a jackline. His thought was that while round lines will roll under foot, it was better to have the jackline always deployed. Depending on your boat deck layout, it might be possible to lay the jackline close to the deck house out of the way so that it doesn't get stepped on along most of the deck (and only the foredeck would be an "underfoot" concern). If one waited until conditions begin to get bad before putting out jacklines, there was an element of danger in deploying the jacklines, and also a tendency to say that we might just try to get by without deploying them. 

For those who want a long jackline to reaches from bow to stern, consider the stretch that the jackline is going to give when you go overboard.....it compounds the length of tether to edge of the boat issue. You can reduce the stretch distance that the jackline will give towards the deck edge if you make it so that it is several short lengths vs. one long length. Run the test with a small nylon or polyester line. On my boat, the jackline is in two sections by winding it through the shrouds. It allows going from cockpit to mast in one section, then from mast to bow by reclipping in around the shrouds (not a problem with double tether)....my shrouds are inboard, so this might or might not work for everyone.


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

Brent Swain said:


> A British sailing magazine did tests on harnesses, by traveling at 4 knots and having the person in them jump overboard....
> Then they tried attaching the tether to the shoulder. That not only allowed the occupant to breath , but it also allowed him to pull himself back in. That was the best option, the one I use.
> Manufacturers of safety harnesses don't do any such testing, they just copy what everyone else does.
> I have eliminated the D rings, for a lashing, as they are far more comfortable in your bunk. Attaching the tether to the top of the shoulder also stops it from digging into you when you are single handed, and in your bunk on a squally night.


Brent -
Where can one find a safety harness where the tether attaches to the shoulder, as you recommend?

Also, what is a "lashing" in the context of attaching a tether to a harness? (Newbie here; sorry if this is a simplistic question.) Thx!


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

Medsailor -

What kind of helmet does your friend use? Does the helmet have a brim, and if not, how does he integrate a helmet with a brimmed hat? Thx - again, sorry if these seem simplistic questions, but this thread certainly has my attention....


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

I have seen skater helmets with a brim (edit: brand=Bern for examples), but for water specific helmets take a look at Gecko Headgear helmets and Garth helmets. Some come without brim, some with detachable brims, some even with an adjustable coloured visor you could use as a brim. There are loads of options out there if you want a helmet for sailing. 

I mentioned helmets first because I thought it would be worth considering, but I actually thought I'd be laughed at outright. I'm glad that more people than me is giving this some real consideration


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I don't understand why jacklines are such an after thought. If proper lighting, seatbelts, GFIs, air bags and lifelines are important, why are jackline always an after thought? Really, they are not an item that should be left to public engineering.

I don't understand deploying jacklines "when they are needed." We generally seem to agree that is...
* at night
* when on deck alone
* when the water is cold
* when it's rough
... which is basically every day when cruising. Do we scramble to set them if night is approaching? A thunderstorm? If your crew become ill or decides to take a nap? If the wind comes up more than we thought (great time to be at the bow without a tether, huh)?

I don't understand why we don't design them into boats such that they are always there and not in the way, just a part of the standing rigging. Mine are. Otherwise I would never use them.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

I would like to bring another aspect to the discussion. What happens when you do fall overboard but (thankfully) are still attached to your tether?

Answer? You get keelhauled by your harness.

I suspect that many of the stories where the crew found the overboard sailor at the end of the harness to be dead, was because he was drowned by being dragged by his harness. Many died this way in the 1998 Sydney to Hobart. This was apparently the finding of the Coast Guard with at least one crew-member in the Faralons race tragedy.

Enter the debate about quick release fittings for the crew end of the tether. There was a move towards these after 1998 with the thinking that you must have a way to release yourself from the boat if you are being dragged or you will drown. Some have resisted this advice because of fears of the snap-shackles opening under load, or accidentally, or just plain failing. Those who are in the anti-snap-shackle camp, usually carry a knife.

It is now accepted wisdom that detaching yourself from the boat is better than being attached and drowning. Once detached though, you are now a MOB at sea. Hopefully your last will and testament is up to date. Better than being drowned by keelhauling, I would agree with that, if these were the only two options, but I think there is a third option.

Brent Swain alluded to what I have in mind when he mentioned a test whereby victims were dragged by their harnesses either forward, backward, or by the shoulder. Dragged facing forward (like all sailing harnesses are currently made) they were at immediate risk of drowning. By the back, they could be dragged for hours but couldn't help their rescue (presumably until the boat stopped). The shoulder was apparently the best. Personally I can't see an easy way to modify harnesses to drag by the shoulder, and I'd want to see more testing before adoption that method.

I do think that the attachment at the back method has promise and part of why is because it is used in many industries and rescue applications. It is, after all, how ALL swiftwater rescue harnesses are set up. These rescuers need to be able to self-rescue AND rescue someone else, and get pulled in by their harness against many knots of current (the equivalent of being dragged by a sailboat). Their harnesses attach the tether at the back, or front, but ALL have a have quick releases on them to switch to the back attachment only in case of being caught in a current. See the red ball on a string on the buckle in the black strap on the front? Pull that, and you switch from being attached at the front, to being attached (towed) at the back ring.










Our common inflatable PFD/harnesses can be easily set up to allow for a quick release to switch from front, to back attachment, much like the swiftwater rescue PFDs. I'll try and explain in the next post....

MedSailor


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

Sweet! We're getting somewhere!


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

In the photo below, you have a fairly standard tether setup (made from what I had around the house). The green webbing is your tether and it is attached to your jackline. The snap shackle attaches to your harness/PFD. 









With this setup you remove the possibility of snap-shackle failure, but you need a knife to detach yourself from the boat so that you are not drowned by being dragged. 









With this standard snap-shackle setup, you can quickly detach yourself from the boat, even under load. With the carabiner setup, you can detach yourself if you have a knife handy. This might save you from drowning, but now you are a MOB instead of a tethered victim. A death sentence in blue water, at night, or in foul weather. 









Now what if you ran another piece of webbing, that is girth-hitched at the BACK of your harness, around one side of your torso, and attached it above the snap shackle? 

















With the same nightmare scenario, where you have fallen over the side, but are still attached, and before the crew can stop the boat, you are being dragged and drowned. You must release the snap-shackle or drown immediately, but what happens with this setup? Do you drift away as a MOB never to be recovered? Lets see...

Remember, the green line is your tether, and is attached to the jackline and the boat, the red line goes around, and to your back. Now RELEASE!









The green and red lines now combine to make a longer tether, and you are now being towed (safely) by your back. 









Being towed in this position, you can breathe as the water will cascade beside and over your head your mouth will still be free to inhale air. Once the boat stops, you can swim to the boat, and pull yourself in by the tether.

This modification can be made to most any tether, (without stitching, or modification of the tether, or harness itself) using a standard rock climbing spec webbing "runner" and 2 girth hitches. Use a runner of 24" if your're skinny, or a longer one if your rib cage is larger. The climbing runners are quite high tech and are rated to 5000lb breaking strength and come in widths as narrow as a shoelace (so no bulk is added).










Thoughts? Comments? Insults? 

MedSailor


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

Freaking awesome thinking there! I just saved this page as a pdf. I'm going to do this for sure. Easy, simple.

The only caveat I can think of is to keep the round-the-ribs webbing short so it won't catch something while you slide across the deck or cabin top.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

How would you disconnecting it from your back to move to another tether or go down below, without removing your pfd?


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

One said:


> I seriously think that makes you special, so special in fact, that it seems the discussion of life lines and jackstays are completely irrelevant to you.


Congratulations, you have quickly realized an important point:

There are real sailors on this listserv, who are actually sailing their boats and know what they are doing, and, know what is important.

Then there are picnic sailors, who think sailing is really about buying more gear and equipment from our sponsors. The picnic sailors buy expensive stuff for their expensive boatshow boats, but rarely actually sail their boats in conditions in which they would need them. What keeps them from sailing? Could it be the idea that they just need that particular liferaft, that particular EPIRB, all the equipment and gear to run all lines aft to the cockpit, the harness so they will be perfectly safe, and not to mention some more ASA courses from the "expert" instructors...and on and on and on.

Robin Knox Johnston is a greater sailor than anyone on this listserv, and he circumnavigated solo without a harness, through the Southern Ocean, the most treacherous ocean in the world. How do you explain that?

There are people on this listserv who have 10 times more gear and equipment than he did, and they never leave the marina, except to motorsail their expensive boatshow boat to the next raft-up. To these "sailors", the enjoyment of sailing is mostly imaginery, not actual.

zeehag actually sails more than the "sailors" who think the solution to every issue is to buy more stuff.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

The back-pull approach certainly has merit and I hope we see some progress in the next few years.

This company has commercialized the idea. They have a patent, but I'm certain the patent can only cover certain design points, not the idea of nape-of-the-neck attachment, which has been common in many harness applications for decades.

Sail-World.com : TeamO Marine Safety Products launches Back Pull Harness/Jifejacket

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My only comment (and this is not a criticism as the thinking was very clean) is that the harness must be designed to take the load from the rear with the snap shackle off. Perhaps a locking biner is needed between the d-rings (but not to the tether), or perhaps I missed something.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I get the point in smacking down the dock queens, but having safety equipment does not make you less of a sailor. 

Crossing the Southern Ocean without a harness does not insure you will burst into flames. It isn't smart either.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> I get the point in smacking down the dock queens, but having safety equipment does not make you less of a sailor.
> 
> Crossing the Southern Ocean without a harness does not insure you will burst into flames. It isn't smart either.


Also, spending a few dollars for equipment that you hope you will never need doesn't make you a wimp. It makes you a prudent sailor.

I am sure that there are some boats and sailors out there who fit James' description of wretched excess, but I think it's a very small percentage. And to them, I say more power to you, because I may buy your boat someday after the bells and whistles have depreciated to nothing.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Very thoughful thread causing me to rethink this issue. Others are young and fit.I'm a fat, old man who is still happiest out of sight of land. Don't want anyone on my boat who I don't love or get along with extremely well so having bluff deck apes to pull me back aboard seems unlikely. Besides>95% of the time just me or me and her.
Believe there has been only one fatality in the marion to bermuda race. I was on that race. Was told boat gybed. preventor failed captain ( fellow physician) was decapitated. Helmets make sense but can't imagine wearing one. Wear full face helmet when on my MC but on boat think it would be too uncomfortable.Want all my senses to tell me what's going on with my boat.
?Wonder if a tether could be rolled around a spring loaded device attached on your shoulder?
Spring would absorb shock of fall and with rachet release act as power assist in reboarding. Kind of like the the spring in a old clock. Also could customize length of tether to need of that moment. Being clumsy have tripped on the thing moving about cockpit.
Was at the Defender warehouse sale yesterday.Didn't see the set up Med sailor showed.
?Where would get those? Seem to incorporate many of the features other posters deem desirable.
This thread feeds into another thread currently running about bringing everthing into the cockpit. Suggests for goofs like me who are still going to do what they going to do avoiding leaving the cockpit is a good idea.


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

jameswilson29 said:


> Congratulations, you have quickly realized an important point:
> 
> There are real sailors on this listserv, who are actually sailing their boats and know what they are doing, and, know what is important.
> 
> ...


Bla, bla, blah, from what she has said, "sailing" for her could be done on a raft with two poles at each front corner and a bed sheet tied between them for propulsion. I don't call that sailing if that is all she (or he, in other cases) does. Regardless of how long she has been doing the "I only sail with the wind on my back". I don't see any difference between that and people who only go out in their power boat in dead calms. That doesn't make for a particularly experienced or good boater, regardless of the years.

As for Robin Knox-Johnson and his lack of lifeline: People did fine without riding helmets for thousands of years, people did fine driving cars without seatbelts and no crumble zones. Except of course, many perished because of those deficiencies.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

OK- I'm a picnic sailor who goes to weather, has been off the shelf more than once,buys a ton of boat stuff,isn't fit and eats quiche. So WHAT. Yours maybe bigger than mine but I have a bunch of kids. This is a great thread gentlemen. Please stay on topic. I might learn something that will save my life or someone I love.


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

outbound said:


> Helmets make sense but can't imagine wearing one. Wear full face helmet when on my MC but on boat think it would be too uncomfortable.Want all my senses to tell me what's going on with my boat.


Most skater helmets are open around the ears, and you can get different "waterhelmets" from Garth and the other one I mentioned, some of which has open ears, some not, and some have interchangeable ear pieces so your hearing isn't impeded.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I'm not a believer in taking every safety precaution all of the time. I ice climb and have soloed vertical rock many hundreds of feet off the deck. Safety has always been about knowing the exact risks and my personal skill level.

Most of the injuries and deaths I have seen (2) were the result not of soloing but of not understanding and training with the equipment. Not understanding how it behaves in all circumstances.

Thus, I have introduced a few topics about impact, so that it might be better understood. And I ALWAYS encourage MOB drills with real people in the water and hoisting them back aboard; that makes each challenge real and boat-specific.

My personal safety rant:
Sail Delmarva: Are You "Captain Safety?"


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Seems to me that ropeless climbers eventually hurt or kill themselves.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Bless you, pdqaltair, my thoughts exactly!

For those of you who are too busy hawking the next indispensible sailing product to read the whole post (which I highly recommend), here is his own synopsis:

"Every sailing forum has a least a few posts wherein someone asks an innocent question about a PFD or lifelines or harnesses or life rafts... and gets hammered by the safety police. Invariably, the original poster explained that he was a trailer sailor or lake sailor or coastal sailor, and further explained that he wasn't sailing around the world or even to Bermuda. Nonetheless, forum sailors are quite proud to display their knowledge of government code, to show just how many ways there are to spend somebody else's money, and how willing they are to crowd another's boat with superfluous stuff. Oh, they'll scare the stuffing out of you, if you listen. "

Were you Nostradamus in a previous life?


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

So life lines and lifevests are now sarcastically "the next indispensible sailing product". 

Yes, staying on board and be able to float if not is now a bad thing. Sailing solo in the North Sea and wanting to stay alive by simple means is now over-the-top. 

Personally, I like what you broad-reach-only guys might call "bad weather", but I want to be able to do it tomorrow too. 

What's next, you're going to call for the abolishment of wearing helmets while motorcycling? Or seatbelts in cars? Or what about lifelines on your boat? Handholds? An engine? An extra shroud?

Seriously, I take enough risks as it is, without having the need to act all cowboyish about it. Some things are just what a prudent sailor with nothing to prove would do.


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

In any case, I notice you (JamesWilson) not only have lifelines, but also lifeline _netting _on your boat, and that in one of your pictures you're wearing a harness. So much for that lifelines/harness/tethers are "the next big thing". Apparently it's all about pretending to not need stuff, rather than actual needs and wants.

Now, can we get back to actually discussing solutions?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

zeehag said:


> ps..cruising formosas heel only 5 percent in a 60 kt wind under jib and jigger. very sea worthy.


What, does yours have spent Uranium for ballast?

I've had some of those designs heel more than that in 25 knots, while tied to a dock... (grin)


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

JonEisberg said:


> What, does yours have spent Uranium for ballast?
> 
> I've had some of those designs heel more than that in 25 knots, while tied to a dock... (grin)


No, he is talking about the boat on the hard, I mean on a stand out of water.

Regards

Paulo


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> How would you disconnecting it from your back to move to another tether or go down below, without removing your pfd?


Great question. In order to put this tether setup on, or take it off, you must tie a girth hitch, or untie one. Going below is easy enough as you would leave the tether connected to your PFD and you would just disconnect the non-pfd end of the tether from the jackline and take the tether down below with you.

On the boats I've been on where tethers and harnesses were used, people each had their own tether and kept it connected to their PFD for ready access. Most of us wrapped it around our waist (around our back) and clipped it back to the D-ring so that is was out of the way, but ready to use.

Using my setup, removing the tether from the PFD would require you to untie the red line at the shackle (easiest) or at the back of the pfd. Probably 15-30 seconds of added time and complexity for taking the tether off, but again, not required for going below.

MedSailor


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

You can find used harnesses on eBay, I just bought a couple. I like separate jackets and harnesses. Often I'll clip in without the jacket....


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> Congratulations, you have quickly realized an important point:
> 
> There are real sailors on this listserv, who are actually sailing their boats and know what they are doing, and, know what is important.
> 
> ...


Finally, after 120+ posts, somebody finally gets around to alluding to the most important bit of safety gear aboard any boat...

Namely, that little bit of grey matter between the sailor's ears... (grin)

A discussion such as this is certainly valuable, of course... However, the focus on "gear" and gadgets never ceases to amuse, when was the last time you saw an article in one of the glossy sailing rags about how to move safely and deftly about the deck at sea? An increasingly vestigial skill among sailors, thanks to things that eliminate the need to do so (lines led aft, for example), or features that diminish one's Situational Awareness (full cockpit enclosures, to name another)...

Grin, bigtime...

Earlier in this thread, someone cited another loss of a sailor in Oz who was "not clipped on"... No doubt, he was swept overboard due to "a Freak Wave"...

"Freak wave", my ass - there is rarely such a thing, and it is rarely the cause of someone going overboard... Whenever I hear 'freak wave', I think of this incident... Hell, a sack of potatoes would have done a better job of staying aboard than this guy...






You want to keep yourself from falling off the boat? Never, EVER make a move that places you at risk without reminding yourself that if you go over the side, you're a dead man... ALWAYS visualize that you're sailing alone, that the edge of the deck represents the edge of a 1,000 foot cliff, and that the lifelines are charged with 600 volts of alternating current... NEVER, if at all possible, go out on deck in a hurry, especially at night... Be patient, observe the wave patterns and motion of the boat, in much the same fashion you might sit outside an inlet in dicey conditions for awhile, before beginning your approach...

I know I'm a broken record about the poor deck ergonomics of many modern boats, and the necessity of keeping decks clear - but IMHO those factors represent the greatest danger in contributing to a potential MOB situation... I just have to shake my head in wonder, at the incongruence of running jacklines along side decks lined with jerry jugs of diesel fuel, and all manner of other Kroozing Krap I see boats burdened with...

But, perhaps most importantly, _Have No Fear_ of venturing out of the cockpit, embrace whatever opportunity arises to do do... In other words, _Practice_ moving about your boat in boisterous conditions... How ironic, that many seem somewhat desperate to reduce the need to ever venture forward, when we all know that at some point - usually in the most difficult of conditions - one will be compelled to do so... Seems akin to expecting someone who never, ever drives in anything but a blizzard, to be really competent at doing so... (grin)

Get over the obsession with the gear and gadgets, staying on the boat is all in your head...


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

And once again we go with the notion that being tied onto the boat is somehow cheating, and that you should be able to hold on by yourself, even if you're up front because of a problem.

With that attitude, I don't understand why one should imagine the lifelines to carry 600 volts. _Surely _you don't have lifelines around the perimeter, and definitely not a pulpit, right?

- Or perhaps that's perfectly alright to help keep you on deck, but tying yourself to something is somehow relying on "gear and gadgets".

The hypocrisy would be funny, if it wouldn't put people who followed your "advice" in danger.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Seems to me that ropeless climbers eventually hurt or kill themselves.


Do we rope-up on a step ladder? No.

Then we are discussing matters of degree rather than absolutes, and that is the point. I rope-up and harness-up rather conservatively, IMHO. But not all the time.

----

PS. The fatalities I helped clean up (and the injuries) were roped-up but did not understand the engineering.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Regarding the above video, it's not the only MOB video where crew has been swept or fallen over as they unclipped entering the cockpit; it can be a very dangerous spot because of the open space to leeward. I'm surprised at the number of racing boats where the tangle of lines makes early unclipping necessary (I don't know if that was the case here, or just a casual attitude).


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> ... However, the focus on "gear" and gadgets never ceases to amuse...


As the OP for this thread, I think getting advice on harnesses and tethers is an appropriate topic for SailNet, and does not fall into the category of focusing on "gadgets." A harness is a pretty basic requirement for offshore, and a prudent thing for singlehanding.

The other skills of moving around the boat are also beneficial, and should be discussed and practiced too.

But I don't think my question was frivolous or inappropriate. Safe practices are critically important, but they are not a substitute for clipping in.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

One said:


> And once again we go with the notion that being tied onto the boat is somehow cheating, and that you should be able to hold on by yourself, even if you're up front because of a problem.
> 
> With that attitude, I don't understand why one should imagine the lifelines to carry 600 volts. _Surely _you don't have lifelines around the perimeter, and definitely not a pulpit, right?
> 
> ...


See Post #48 for my initial "advice" to the OP, for those of us who sail smaller boats... It involves the use of a fixed tether at the base of the mast like the yellow line pictured below, one of 4 fixed tethers I employ on my boat, in addition to the Dyform jacklines encased in webbing which I might occasionally use...

Guess I didn't express myself very well, not sure where you got the idea I'd ever recommend someone's not clipping in whenever the thought occurs to them it might be prudent to do so...


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> See Post #48 for my initial "advice" to the OP, for those of us who sail smaller boats... It involves the use of a fixed tether at the base of the mast like the yellow line pictured below, one of 4 fixed tethers I employ on my boat, in addition to the Dyform jacklines encased in webbing which I might occasionally use...
> 
> *Guess I didn't express myself very well, not sure where you got the idea I'd ever recommend someone's not clipping in whenever the thought occurs to them it might be prudent to do so...*


Well, that was how it came across to me. I'm glad to see you clip in too.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Appreciate Jon's post. He's right it's your brain that keep you alive ( not strength nor gadgets). Speaks to need to tether before entering cockpit while still in companionway and staying teathered in cockpit. Still, others have made great posts as well:
benefits of short tenders
risks of direct injury from harnes/tether durng fall
risks of drowning if off the side of the boat and how to mitigate.
backwardness of marine tech c/w rockclimbing tech in dealing with falls.
Merits of attitude the commercial fisherme have in not teaching their children to swim.
Still watching that guy slide under the safety lines reminds me of running netting on the boat when I had small kids or the clothes around the stern pushpulpit. (Honestly had them to keep seas out more then me in). If I did that now porbably would clip lower part rather than lace through toe rail. That way could easily raise then when need arose.
?any thoughts?


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Finally, after 120+ posts, somebody finally gets around to alluding to the most important bit of safety gear aboard any boat...
> 
> Namely, that little bit of grey matter between the sailor's ears... (grin)
> 
> ...


*Yes Yes YES! 
Can I get an AMEN BROTHER!!!
*









The SINGLE BIGGEST CONSIDERATION we had when looking for a new boat was safetly on deck. We wanted clear side decks. If the shrounds went to the middle of the side deck that boat was off the list. We wanted high bulwarks, and not to have to climb on top of a sloped cabin top to reach the mast.

Fairhaven is missing many things from our original wish list (like a center cockpit and aft cabin) but these were sacrificed when we saw a boat with wide, clear side decks, handholds ever where you would want them, treadmaster non-skid, high bulwarks and mast winches that can be reached from the deck, not cabin top.

I used to single hand f(for years) without a tether, but I moved about the boat like I do at the edge of a cliff. I have only ONCE used my lifelines to stop me going overboard and it is still my biggest bonehead move ever. Still gives me chills.

While I enjoy engineering tether concepts on my non-sailing days, I rarely feel I need on aboard, racing or cruising. Once, in a storm (not gale, storm) in the straits of Juan de Fuca, I didn't have a tether or attachment points, but felt I needed them. I went below, got a drill and a U-bolt and drilled an attachment point into my cabin top. I then used some rope and 2 carabiners to make a tether.

For those who fear leaving their cockpit, I would say that they have poorly designed boats, or not enough skill moving about a boat. Join a racing crew that races in the off-season (winter) to build you skills moving about a boat at extreme angles of heel without a tether. It's a very VERY good skill to have.

Photo of Fairhaven's deck. Notice the bulwarks on the sides. Notice the wide, clear decks with treadmaster. Notice that the mast winches can be reached from the deck. Also notice the handles, exactly at hand height, on the cabin top for use while moving forward. Also notice the pretty girl who was my girlfriend when this photo was taken (now my wife) as we delivered the boat down from Bellingham after we bought her.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> > Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> > ... However, the focus on "gear" and gadgets never ceases to amuse...
> 
> 
> ...


My apologies, I didn't intend to imply that it was... My point was more to the fact that such focus on equipment is repeated annually in all of the respective "Safety at Sea" issues of the various sailing mags, and yet discussions of the mental and physical/athletic aspects of moving about boats at sea remain essentially ignored...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

they are trying to sell things. you are trying to stay alive.


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

Jon E -
When you clip on to one of your 4 fixed tethers, do you do so with a "screamer" to decelerate momentum at the end of the tether, as discussed earlier in this thread, or not? In either case, why?

Agreed that gray matter, honed by sailing experience, is the most useful gadget a sailor brings aboard. Just trying to glean some benefit from those saltier than I.


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

Well, soloing I tend to use every trick I can to stay on board. However, like some here, I'm not entirely sold on running everything aft to the cockpit. I will be up front when things go wrong anyway, so might as well get the practice all along. I do use my mind when I'm sailing, I have never had a tether arrest a fall of mine, yet I sail in bad weather.

Besides, this is not "the mags". This is Sailnet. In a thread asking about tethers and which spawned quite a lot of varying solutions to a specific problem. Rather than continuing to think of workable solutions, the mere thought of harnesses and tethers was belittled, and regardless of what you, JonE, (now) say, it had the result of belittling even thinking about simple safety and direct focus to how you move about instead. Not as something to complement actually being tied to the thing you want to stay on, but _removing _focus from that to that of "mind over matter".

Of course, your post wouldn't have seemed so bad in a vacuum, but after the "Pfft, safety" brigade coming out, and you using several of the same terms, it seemed like yet another comment to dissuade the OP and people in general to do what they can to keep alive.


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## One (Mar 20, 2013)

Case in point:



outbound said:


> they are trying to sell things. you are trying to stay alive.


If you're so afraid to pay anyone a little money, you can make your own tethers and harness from scraps of rope and webbing you have lying around.

---
People, we're not talking about equipment costing thousands of dollars here. We're not talking electronics of any kind. We're talking about how best to set up soft, freaking lines of one kind of another to keep you on board and preferably to keep your from breaking ribs or similar in the event of a fall.

If pieces of line and where to place them can get you guys to argue "huge marketing plot", there's something wrong.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

In the Safety at Sea seminar for the Bermuda race, you are taught to use both your head and your gear. There is thorough discussion of both. Try to criticize those instructors, which to a person have multiple pond crossings, Bermuda races, FastNet, etc on their résumé. You don't just buy the gear and stuff it in a locker, you practice with it.

The answer is both.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

One thing not mentioned enough is non-skid surfaces. Deck surfaces are designed for "pretty" not for best skid resistance. Almost every boat you see has rounded corners that have NO non-skid or "patches" of non-skid with plenty of slick in between to hit and slide. I Kiwi-gripped my decks completely, including the rounded corners which originally were slick and shiny. I don't need to play hopscotch trying to aim my feet at grip surfaces. Kiwi can be put on with a VERY aggressive surface that keeps footing solid. I think function has to trump appearance when it comes to deck surfaces.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

joebeach said:


> Jon E -
> When you clip on to one of your 4 fixed tethers, do you do so with a "screamer" to decelerate momentum at the end of the tether, as discussed earlier in this thread, or not? In either case, why?


No, I don't... No particular reason why, just haven't given it that much thought, I suppose (grin)... That probably comes largely from the fact that I have never, ever, come remotely close to being snatched up short on a tether...

pdqaltair and others are certainly the ones to pay attention to, regarding your question, they make a very strong case for the importance of shock limiting devices, and have got me thinking... I might be inclined to configure an attachment point at my mast that employs a mooring snubber that could be put to other uses in a pinch, as well... In addition, they would be re-usable...










The key to my setup for working at the mast is the sliding Schaefer T-track cleat affixed to my spinnaker pole track...










Usually positioned at chest height, my tether gets immediately shortened to 18-24 inches or so as soon as I arrive at the mast, allowing me good bracing, and both hands free for reefing, or whatever... This is the big drawback of conventional jacklines running on deck, they're not positioned to afford any real security at the mast, and a fall would permit one to achieve tremendous momentum by the time they came into play... Once I'm tethered at the mast, the most I can possibly fall is a matter of inches...

I think you still have to think in terms of being snatched up by a tether as a major failure on one's part equivalent to falling overboard... You can simply not allow it to happen...


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I prefer car seat belt for tethers, as it is far more comfortable in my bunk than a rope, and to enable me to attach myself from inside, before opening the hatch, I can leave one attached to the jackline and close the hatch on it , unlike rope. With a tether short enough to stop you from reaching the water, you could never attach from inside before opening the hatch.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

zeehag said:


> brent--one does not have to unhook to go from stern to bow and back to stern on my boat even when going all the way around the boat in a full circle. i sail a ketch. i do not sail out and back daysails. there is no back--only out.
> 
> where i am, which is not pnw by any stretch, is paradise. we talking no weather problems until furycame season. then there is a problem. until then--no problema. no headwinds and no bashing . in gom, there was always a choice--bash or sail in comfort to a destination. i do not foresee me taking the bash path if there is a respectable choice. i will not be going to pnw nor will i be sailing in coldville, anywhere on this earth.
> 
> there is no need to beat to windward here.


I have made many cruises to the South Pacific but have always been glad to get back to paradise ( The BC coast)
In could be anywhere in the world right now if I wanted to , but I prefer to be here in paradise.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Agree with Jon. Think the mast is a place you are likely to want both hands to work with. Therefore, even with lines brought aft I have mast pulpits and clip on to them. Leaning against them allows you to brace and use both hands. Also put a small step on them allowing my 4'10" wife the ability to get to the headboard. For me it's something to grab onto climbing on the house. After thinking about issues people have raised may re run the jacklines through them. In past boats have run tether around mast and clipped back on me.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I learned my lesson on impact simply, when rock climbing; I got up from belaying someone while forgetting I was loosely anchored. You only do that once. It was like hitting a brick wall with my hip. I have never suggested, even in jest, that a sailor take a running start against 6 feet of tether because I don't want to be responsible for the injury.

I like this thinking, the idea of the snubber. However, there is a reason neither OSHA not climbers use that design; while it would give perhaps 4-8 inches at a steadily increasing resistance, the screamer can extend several feet at a steady resistance. It simply won't absorb enough energy. But I like the line of thinking and hope someone explores it. There might be a good compromise answer. Personally, I think the compromise would be a shorter screamer-type construction, since the energy absorption requirement is perhaps 50%. This could be quite inexpensive, replaceable like a fuse, and they would VERY rarely trigger, not in most sailor's lifetime's.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Brent Swain said:


> I prefer car seat belt for tethers, as it is far more comfortable in my bunk than a rope, and to enable me to attach myself from inside, before opening the hatch, I can leave one attached to the jackline and close the hatch on it , unlike rope. With a tether short enough to stop you from reaching the water, you could never attach from inside before opening the hatch.


Great idea Brent. I've been wondering what to do with the rest of that huge roll of seat belt material I bought to make a drogue


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

I do like that commercial tethers have tell tale threads that let you know when the tether has been stressed.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> I like this thinking, the idea of the snubber. However, there is a reason neither OSHA not climbers use that design; while it would give perhaps 4-8 inches at a steadily increasing resistance, the screamer can extend several feet at a steady resistance. It simply won't absorb enough energy. But I like the line of thinking and hope someone explores it. There might be a good compromise answer. Personally, I think the compromise would be a shorter screamer-type construction, since the energy absorption requirement is perhaps 50%. This could be quite inexpensive, replaceable like a fuse, and they would VERY rarely trigger, not in most sailor's lifetime's.


Thanks for your input on this, but I hadn't realized a typical screamer would permit that much additional extension... I think I'll take my chances of getting snatched up short on a regular tether, than going with a degree of additional length that could easily make the difference between remaining on deck, and going over the side... (grin)


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Thanks for your input on this, but I hadn't realized a typical screamer would permit that much additional extension... I think I'll take my chances of getting snatched up short on a regular tether, than going with a degree of additional length that could easily make the difference between remaining on deck, and going over the side... (grin)


Remember, a screamer will NOT even begin to activate until the impact force exceeds 500lbs. Once the load goes below 500lbs it stops ripping (i.e. it can only partially extend/rip)

Now imagine this. Your harness has 2" webbing right? That means you would bear the impact over a 2" section of your ribcage and or spine. Would you sign up for having your ribs/spine whacked with the narrow side of a 2x4 to the tune of >500lbs??? That'd be about the same as standing there while Babe Ruth took his best swing at your ribcage!

If you loose your balance and get snatched up against the tether with the screamer, it's no big deal. If you fall far enough across the boat to activate the screamer, you're REALLY going to want it to activate to avoid major bone and organ damage.

MedSailor


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I understand the concept of force on impact, but wouldn't it be distributed throughout the harness, particularly to the webbing at the rear, and not solely on the attachment point?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> Remember, a screamer will NOT even begin to activate until the impact force exceeds 500lbs. Once the load goes below 500lbs it stops ripping (i.e. it can only partially extend/rip)
> 
> Now imagine this. Your harness has 2" webbing right? That means you would bear the impact over a 2" section of your ribcage and or spine. Would you sign up for having your ribs/spine whacked with the narrow side of a 2x4 to the tune of >500lbs??? That'd be about the same as standing there while Babe Ruth took his best swing at your ribcage!
> 
> ...


Again, I appreciate the input here from those far more familiar with climbing gear than myself... I'll definitely be using a screamer as a backup when going up the mast, for example, where an actual _fall_ is a definite possibility...

However, the concern about being snatched up with great force while moving about the deck is simply not that great a concern, to me personally... The way I look at it, if I am ever so dumb as to be caught out so completely unaware as that guy in the video I posted earlier, I _DESERVE_ to get a few cracked ribs out of the deal, along with a sharp reminder that perhaps it's time I think about retiring to a more sedate pursuit than sailing... (grin)


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> I understand the concept of force on impact, but wouldn't it be distributed throughout the harness, particularly to the webbing at the rear, and not solely on the attachment point?


That would depend how you fall. Were you perfectly facing your tether and attachment point when the load snatched up? If you're facing slightly away, the load will be on one side or the other of your rib cage with almost nothing on the shoulders. Ideally you go over like the guy in the video and take it on the shoulders. 

MedSailor


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## Advocate777 (Sep 28, 2010)

I am about to leave from Ft. Lauderdale down coastal cruising to Biscayne bay and the up the Gulf Stream back -- out for 6 days. have to supply my own PFD and/or tether. What should I buy? Will be shopping at West Marine and will want whatever I get to last me for years.
I want to get a PFD with a tether ---any recommendations would be appreciated for this newbie


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

Actually you want a PFD with a harness, plus you need a tether. Try on the pfds. be sure its comfortable. Mustang is one of the few with an optional crotch strap. Tether needs to have 2 clips and be easy to open with one hand. Enjoy the trip!


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I'm fix'n to sail non stop from Key West to Honduras on a 28 foot sloop, no engine, with my 72 year young Father in Law. We will be tied in at all times, with a leash too short to go over the side.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Capt.aaron said:


> I'm fix'n to sail non stop from Key West to Honduras on a 28 foot sloop, no engine, with my 72 year young Father in Law. We will be tied in at all times, with a leash too short to go over the side.


For a second there I thought this was gonna be a set up for a very morbid in-law joke.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

TakeFive said:


> For a second there I thought this was gonna be a set up for a very morbid in-law joke.


Ya, Stand By for that. Sadly it's a bucket list thing for him. He's very healthy and will no doubt be around for decades to come, like his parents and theirs. But long ( 6 day or more ) passages on my little barebone sloop are at times grueling. I just purchased a Capehorn steering vane, and all new, life raft, e-pirb, harnessess, double cliped, spot, ais, double reefing main, storm sail, drouge, all new sheet's, running rigging,on and on. we should be able to clip in and ride.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Capt.aaron said:


> Ya, Stand By for that. Sadly it's a bucket list thing for him. He's very healthy and will no doubt be around for decades to come, like his parents and theirs. But long ( 6 day or more ) passages on my little barebone sloop are at times grueling. I just purchased a Capehorn steering vane, and all new, life raft, e-pirb, harnessess, double cliped, spot, ais, double reefing main, storm sail, drouge, all new sheet's, running rigging,on and on. we should be able to clip in and ride.


Start us a thread when you get back and tell us about your BFS. Also, I really want to hear about your Cape Horn gear! Tell us all about how it worked (or didn't) when you get back.

MedSailor


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

MedSailor said:


> Start us a thread when you get back and tell us about your BFS. Also, I really want to hear about your Cape Horn gear! Tell us all about how it worked (or didn't) when you get back.
> 
> MedSailor


For $3495.00, which is probably more than I could sell the boat for, I Better be able to sail off the dock in key West and right through the little cut on the east end of Guanaja with out touch'n my tiller! It's what Yves Told me it would do. I can say I've been impressed with his company, Him, his voyage and his customer service thus far. I've paid in full, in advance to expedite delivery so it should be waiting for me when I get off the tug 2 weeks from now. Then I have 2 weeks for the final prep, back on the tug for 2 weeks and depart May 9th, weather or not, wind or not, on the nose or not, we are leaving. I have 2 weeks to get there and back to the tug. I just bought an asym genny, and several sizes of head sails from 8 oz hanky on up. For those of you who have not done so, google a sat map of the Bay Islands, immages of Cayo Cochinos, and La Ceiba Shipyard, where I'll be storing the boat for a month while my dock in Guanaja is being repaired. Don't let all the Hype of dangerous locals keep this place off your cruising radar. But I digresss, back on track, we will be tied in on short leashes, watching the boat steer us. too short to go over the rail, which is how I've alway's done it any way's.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

MedSailor said:


> Back on the topic of harnesses and PFDs:
> 
> I would like to put in a pitch for the humble foam type III pfd combined with a traditional webbing harness.
> 
> ...


Thanks for mentioning the foam PDF, it does have a place in a sailing. Some of them are ubercool looking and comfy to wear in the cooler days.

Helmet: I always want to wear one sailing in a heavy sea. We wear a helmet riding a bike, snow boarding, rock climbing, and etc. Why not in sailing.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I have a helmet when diving on my hull off shore. I've had to unfowl things and fix my center board penet.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Evans Starzinger just posted a first draft of his take on this subject over on CA...

As always from he and Beth, an excellent, informed analysis and recommendations...

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/jackline.pdf


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

Agreed - an excellent jackline primer. Thanks for posting....


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Jon- thank you and logical. Will incorporate their suggestions.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Great addition John, thanks for posting. Beth and Evans are absolutely among the best for _really well thought out_ advice that you can adapt to your own circumstance.

Quoted from their post, I love how they explain how, not only to built the gear and gadgets part of the system, but HOW to EFFECTIVELY use it.

"_*When to Use*
A command (skipper and watch captains) priority is to be clear when the crew will be clipped. There are four obvious situations when they should be. (1) when there is the possibility of solid green water on deck. That can wash off even someone with a firm grip on the boat. (2) when there is the possibility of more than say a 40 degree knock over. For instance, when you are encountering unusually shaped waves, as is typical in a current or over shallow water; or breaking waves on the beam; or in particularly squally or gusty conditions; or when pushing a chute very hard in a big breeze and waves downwind. (3) when working in a particularly unstable and vulnerable position, for instance, as is sometimes the case when working out on the pulpit with a moving spinnaker pole. And (4) when recovery of a MOB might be particularly slow or difficult - for instance at night with a minimal 'delivery' crew on board. The key skill here is to recognize the possibilities of green water or hard knock-over or unstable situation well in advance, and not just react after the fact._

If you haven't read their books you really should. Most of the "how to sail around the world" books (and I've read over 200 of them) are focused on MY WAY IS THE BEST WAY. Beth Leonard's (of Beth and Evans) book is head and shoulders above all the others because it tells you what you should be thinking about, and how to make your own decisions. In fact the first few chapters in the book are about if you are mentally, emotionally and financially prepared, not anchor types and storm tactics. They also address the issues of "will you actually like the cruising lifestyle (as we found Glenn Damato did not).

Bottom line, I love their work and their book is better than the 200 others I've read by a wide magrin. Buy it, you won't regret it and even if you do, your money went to sailors who are trying to empower other sailors. The Voyager's handbook is a SOLID five stars.
Beth and Evan's book "The Voyager's Handbook"

MedSailor


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