# Bumfuzzle - who''s right?



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

So I''ve just read the Feb log on bumfuzzle.com re: the fiasco with their Wildcat. This whole thing looks like a mess - anybody have any comments?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Don''t like the builder''s attitude. Dodge ball at its finest. I am in the market for a cruising cat and would not give them any consideration.


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Probably the best approach when reading the entire Bumfuzzle website is to maintain some perspective on their (Pat & Ali''s) overall enterprise. One of the best things about their site is the almost total naivte'' with which they share their experiences: twenty-somethings with no sailing experience, an obviously hefty wad of cash, cutting ties and hurling themselves into a circumnaviation, choosing a small Cat to do so, and valuing one island nation after another based on how good the fast food is.

In one sense, this is a great way for bystanders to appreciate - if they have the experience to do so - the challenges of cruising when the crew (and, in some respects as a result, the boat) is unprepared...but they are young and hardy enough to carry on, anyway. E.g. I very much appreciate Pat & Ali''s diligence in reporting their monthly expenses, even if it illustrates along with their logs that their experience is truly being wasted on the young (or at least, the relatively ''clueless'' WRT culture, history and seamanship). We benefit by their ignorance and openness at the same time that we shake our heads at their incompetence.

In reading the ''chapter & verse'' email exchanges with the builder about Bumfuzzle''s structural problems, here are my conclusions FWIW:
1. You get what you pay for. (Note all the praise, in the URL''s referenced as well as Pat''s own comments) about how the Wildcat is a ''do everything'' boat but lightly built and sold at an attractive (aka: cheap) price. Whatever one''s personal view on the multi vs. monohull choice, a cautious & knowledgeable buyer would appreciate that a boat''s engineering and build quality must be especially well considered on a multi given the importance of lighter but stronger structures. Yet this boat is considered to be capable AND cheap. Right...
2. Smaller builders are going to have more variability in their manufacturing processes and are less likely to have quality processes in place to catch their build errors. For all the grousing from some folks (including me, on occasion) about the ''assembly line'' boats being churned out by Hunter, Beneteau et al, there are some substantial benefits that are derived from such standarization. Literally, there is a price to be paid when choosing a small builder of a low-priced boat.
3. Boats are built poorly, in whole or in part, far more often than we would like to believe...and the brand rep of a given boat is not necessarily going to insure better quality. When a Hunter''s rudder shaft (composite structure assembled at the factory, not metal stock cast by another party) shears off on an ocean crossing, or a Catalina''s steering fails because the undersized laminate allows the hull to deflect so much that the hull binds on the steering quadrant (this was in Charleston Harbor), we tend to shrug and chalk it up to mass production. OTOH when a 60''+ Hinkley, 3 years old and with a single Caribbean trip to her credit, has 40% of her hull fail due to core adhesion problems similar to what Bumfuzzle reports, we are aghast because the vessel cost so much. IMO boat construction is generally a more highly variable activity than most of us appreciate, which is why a good N.A. will build in some additional strength, and why boats that tout themselves as light yet strong (typically, using high cost/high strength composite structures which bring their own construction challenges) deserve some careful thought from the potential buyer.
4. None of Pat and Ali''s discoveries of their boat''s problems has been aided by their own ignorance and lack of experience; quite the opposite. They lacked the ability to sail their boat to windward, the whined about Pacific Is. natives not knowing how to splice a double-braided line (rather than seeing that skill as one of their responsibilities), and in the same vein they slowly peel away the reality of their boat''s problems and try to address them, incrementally, solely by email. After a thousand dollars spent on burgers over the past year, surely they could afford a few phone calls to supplement the necessary written corresponsdence. My guess is that, by getting a comprehensive outline of the deficiencies and then approaching the builders fully prepared, they would have got the same end result (no real satisfaction) but more quickly & with a lot less frustration.

In the end, I think they should be applauded for posting the lengthy email correspondence with the builder. First because I think it gives a fair representation of what it''s like to be a relatively ignorant buyer, trying to get satisfaction from a distant, small builder. Second, because it was likely to be their only source of satisfaction. And another reason I applaud it is that it probably gives any reader pause to consider whether buying a boat fresh from a factory, or a boat less than a year old for that matter, is as good an idea as it might at first seem. This just serves a healthy wake-up call for any prospective buyer.

Jack


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Gosh, the 2 year old boat thing may have even taken their surveyor for a spin. I think the surveyor didn''t do his job and he should be carrying the burden of this problem. I think Whoosh is being a little hard on Pat and Ali - kudos to them for doing what they are. Its easy to sit and say coulda, shoulda wouda ... at the end fo the day these guys are doing what they planned and that should be commended. I like the fact that they are a little against the grain - how refreshing.

That being said, the manufacturer does raise an interesting issue that the fellow who did the repairs acted as both surveyor and builder. Pat and Ali''s position would probably been much stronger had gotten an independant survey when the problem started.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

One other thing, if Pat and Ali subscribed to the gospel preached on this web board, they would still be sitting at home reading web pages....I have read a lot from people like Jeff_H and really respect his opinions but nothing sucks the life out of me more than him saying to forget buying the 35 footer - go buy a dingy until you get more experience.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

bigbeam,

I think you expect too much from a surveyor. A "typical" surveyor won''t see much beyond that which is apparent to anyone''s eye, expect if he/she is capable with their mosture meter, in which case they may find wet spots that you can''t see. Beyond that, most buyers are out of luck with most surveyors - the survey is fundamentally superficial. Only the best of surveyors are likely to get under the skin, or know where to get under the skin - and they cost 2 or 3 times the "typical" surveyor, and few of us typical boat buyers know to hire them, or are smart enough to pay the price.
As to a surveyor "carrying the burden.." - not a chance! Take a look at the small print in a survey document, the surveyor greatly restricts any accountability for error.

My last used boat survey, unfortunately by a "typical" surveyor (my fault, I knew better...), missed so many things which I subsequently repaired/replaced, that if the surveyor had to "carry the burden" for them, the costs could have consumed his entire year''s income.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Sailingfool,
I agree that you can''t find everything, but with Bumfuzzle, what about the hull delamination? Did the surveyor even sound the hull? Sure doesn''t sound like it to me. As for them saying that lightening caused the delam and blistering, I doubt it.


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## PA28235Pilot (Feb 13, 2005)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Please let me introduce myself. I''m a wanna-be sailor but I have a little backround in fiberglass construction methods.

It''s obvious to me that Bumfuzzle was a poorly built vessel.

I have a couple of questions.

Why attack the boat owners and their cruising style? Does it somehow change the poor build quality or make it somehow acceptable?

From my perspective, these folks bought a two year old boat after having a qualified surveyor give them a green light (after a few minor repairs).

I have to ask how an "experienced" sailor would be better equiped to judge the boat than a professional surveyor?

I''ve also been around aviation for a number of years and have seen all kinds of attitudes from the "veterans" of the sky. Most are welcoming and understanding of beginners. Some tend to drive people off before they even get to ground school. The rest just tolerate the "stupid" newbies, forgeting where they themselves came from.

Al


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## kb7176 (Jan 19, 2005)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Whoosh, that''s pretty harsh. Just what is it you dislike so much about this couple? Although I am personally way out of their age demographic I have enjoyed reading their adventures and their courage to go for it. In reading their logs and I certainly did not come away with the same impressions that you got. In fact, quite the opposite. I don''t find them to be a whining "burger eating, youth wasting" couple at all. I can appreciate their honesty in not having a huge amount of experience in starting out but I do think that where they are now probably exceeds the experience many of the "old salts" that often post on this site. It is in the doing where "true knowledge" happens. We need balance in all things and while an appreciation for experience is certainly appropriate, if vision is stiffled we would never move forward. Life is precious no matter what the age, perhaps if we had the wisedom to look at the world with youthful eyes a little more often we just might learn something. As far as their boat issues are concerned, although unfortunate, anyone that owns a boat is fair game for system failure. Quite frankly, I think Pat and Ali are handling things with a lot more maturity than many people I know. So give them a break and enjoy the adventure!


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Al, let me try to answer your question. First, let me clarify something: I don''t think I''m attacking Pat & Ali but rather criticizing their unreasonable expectations, immaturity and lack of effort to learn. If others take away a different flavor from the logs, that''s fine by me.

"I have to ask how an "experienced" sailor would be better equiped to judge the boat than a professional surveyor?"

Here''s what I posted on another BB that gets to that issue. Sorry for the length...

"Let's step away from our blame of the builder, surveyor, broker and/or owners for just a moment, and see what we can conclude about how to buy a boat for which we have extensive cruising plans. Learning from BUMFUZZLE's mistakes and misfortunes is one of the few true benefits of their story.

1. As you begin shopping, you will know what you are about. This means you have a good understanding of what your plans will demand of the boat and you also understand the issues you will face for the kind of boat you will be selecting. Information of this kind is abundantly available these days.
2. You will expect little of brokers beyond them doing the legwork to find you a boat that meets your needs as you (not they) understand them. ''Expecting little'' goes double if the broker has minimal experience doing what you intend to do. You will note that the broker offers no warranty on the boat s/he brokers.
3. As you narrow the field, you will do appropriate due diligence, just as when buying a business, a house or a car. You will identify the issues you must face for the type of boat you seek (e.g. small/light/less expensive Cat, to be used for a circumnavigation), and you will research the builder(s) who's boats are of interest.
4. Especially if a boat of interest is almost new, you will seek clarity from the builder on what warranty remains under your ownership and what you must do to cement that. (Ex: a warranty against hull blistering is often transferable). You will also inquire of the boat's suitability, in the builder's opinion, for your voyaging plans. Again, you'll do this not only because you may get additional information (e.g. certain modifications may be recommended), but also because you may incur some additional felt obligation from the builder if the answer is positive. When the boat is not designed in-house, you will definitely talk with the designer (at some small expense for his/her time). His/her interests are not the same as the builder's, and the information you gain may be especially useful.
5. You will present several specific questions on any boat of interest to the broker, requesting s/he obtain the answer(s) directly from the seller. (Ex: "What repairs has the boat needed to its structures, engines and rig while under your ownership?" "What known defects currently exist?") Brokers are in touch with sellers because money has to eventually change hands. If the answers are not provided in a written form, you will summarize them and share a copy with the broker. You will ask these questions for three reasons: 1) You may learn more than the broker knows; 2) You could incur some subsequent legal benefit if relevant info is withheld; and 3) Even absent legal benefit, you may gain some psychological sense of obligation on the part of the broker and/or seller for how the boat was represented.
6. Once an offer is made, you will use a knowledgeable surveyor to put the odds as much in your favor as possible, but you will understand s/he will not necessarily find all of the boat's problems (which is just what the language on every written survey says). You will regrettably remember that this especially applies to new and almost-new boats.
7. Finally, as your ownership period begins you will accept that your knowledge of the boat, and how to handle her, remains limited. After commissioning and while outfitting, you will perform a thorough, thoughtful shakedown that builds your own skills and knowledge of the boat while looking for undiscovered issues. While doing so, you will stay near an area where emerging issues can be addressed (legally & logistically, not just mechanically).

Most of these are pretty obvious; some spring to mind given the unique BUMFUZZLE circumstances. None of these are 'peripheral' or unimportant IMO and, regrettably, none of them guarantee a problem free boat after purchase, most especially so when the boat is then taken across an ocean or two by owners who didn''t buy from the builder."

Al, I''m not sure how you''d label me from an aviation standpoint, as I came to flying and aircraft ownership later in my life. (Am I ''old'' because I''m...err, old? Or young because of my fresh perspective?) Frankly, I don''t think my comments have anything to do with age. And I''ll just bet that if you came across a couple at your local field who owned a nifty GA plane but who didn''t concern themselves with how to care for it or how to fly it, you would stay at arm''s length, no matter what your age. I wouldn''t label you ''stuffy'' or your opinion unreasonable.

Jack


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Charter Cats just made a huge mistake in regards to Public Relations. I don''t care how young or un-experienced Pat and Ali are that is beside the point. It doesn''t take an ole'' salt to know that much delamination is due to poor workmanship not a lighting strike. The company should of attempted to make things right from the begining rather than ignoring them hoping they go away. If you advertise that you build a go anywhere bluewater cruiser - as a company you better be prepared to help your owners regardless of where they are in the world, not just in the marina near an american shore- as grumpy whoosh would of - who in my opinion is just a jelous old man that is upset these two are living a dream he couldn''t. Youth is never wasted on the young - it takes a lifetime to get where you are- nobody is born all knowlingly so please whoosh quit saying it. Many thanks go out to Pat and Ali for the site - it truely takes guts and courage to do what they are doing and posting about it. And thanks to them I have a good nugget for my back pocket about Charter Cats SA - won''t buy one now for sure- I wouldn''t even stop by there booth this weekend - well maybe just to laugh at them. $15K check to them would of been like advertising during the superbowl - it would of went a very long way.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

What the hell are you taking about. Do you know anything at all about Jack (Whoosh)? Jack is in Europe continuing to live the dream in a way that few of us can even dream of. Jeeeeezzzzzzzzz


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## PA28235Pilot (Feb 13, 2005)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Jack,

I never included comments about age. I used the term "veteran". Some people think they are veteran aviators as soon as they get their private tickets (some young, some old). Just ask them and they''ll tell you.

My take on the bumfuzzle''s crew is that they are trying to do their best but could use some guidance. Simply posting their mistakes on the internet implies that they recognize most of them. Hopefully they are learning. I know I am, thanks to them and the interpretation from knowledgable people like yourself.

I think I know where your frustration comes from, I have problems with unprepared aviators. Too often they make headlines that make us all look bad.

Maybe the term "v-tail doctor killer" is familiar to you. It describes a complex single engine airplane which was purchased by many affluent pilots with minimal flying experience.

A good number of accidents resulted from pilots attempting flights which were WAY beyond their skill level, especially in a complex airplane like that one. I don''t have much sympathy for those people.

I hope Bumfuzzle''s crew doesn''t end up making a big mistake like those pilots did.

On the other hand, I don''t understand how my or your concerns relate to Bumfuzzle''s build problems or the owners response to them. I can''t see where they are whining about the situation. They are just reporting the problem with getting any help from the boat builder. Remember this is a fairly new boat. Yes they aren''t the original owner but why should that matter? The builder got paid regardless of who paid him.

Isn''t this the type of information potential buyers would need to make an informed decision? I have become better educated based on their misfortune and would never buy a boat from that manufacturer.

In fact, I''m seriously questioning my decision to get involved in this hobby/lifestyle if I have to build my own boat from scratch to ensure getting a seaworthy craft.

Al


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## ughmo2000 (Feb 12, 2003)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

It doesn''t really matter how much experience Pat and Ali have unless they grossly mishandled their boat. The fact is, the boat has problems which the builders haven''t addressed except to dodge any and all responsibility.

I''m sure anyone here, having a two year old boat, would be screaming bloody murder were we in their shoes. I don''t think I could be as patient or nice as Pat and Ali have been.

The ugly part is, for lack of spending a "little" money and standing behind their product, Charter Cats SA will undoubtedly loose a lot of business. I praise Pat and Ali for documenting their story on their website.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Jack''s not being harsh on these folks, he''s being realistic. A lot of you are reading his comments more severely than they''re intended. I doubt highly that Pat and Ali would disagree that they were naive in buying that boat, and in preparing it, and themselves for their journey. I would expect that if you asked them, they''d have a pretty long list of things they''d do differently in the way of acquiring skills and equipment. But that being said, they *are* out there doing it. While Pat''s narrative style and topical choice are less than smooth or typical, they do seem to be having fun. I''ve come to the conclusion that they probably come off as a lot more friendly in person as there doesn''t seem to be much evidence that they''ve run afoul of the "Ugly American" treatment any more than usual expectations would warrant.

Crossing an Ocean isn''t like a week bareboating in the BVI''s. For the most part, you can''t call someone to come and bail you out when you get in trouble. Your resources are limited to the skills and materials you bring with you, and failure to recognize this and prepare against it can only be placed on the captain and crew of the vessel, no matter how cute, friendly and innocent they are.

I too, applaud them for being so forthcoming on their webpage. I''m also impressed with their patience and tact in handling the issues so far with their boat. They''re learning some pretty hard lessons, which have ranged in magnitude from "Duh!" to "Wow!!! I wouldn''t have expected that". However, the way Charter Cats SA have mishandled the situation is tragic, both for their future sales and for Pat & Ali.


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## Silmaril (Feb 22, 2003)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

I was amazed at the tanacity of the couple after reading the posts on their blog. I was also stunned at their cavaleer attitude in attempting a circumnavigation with an utter lack of experience.

Their choice of vessel was absurd, at best. They did zero due diligence, and have relied on others to do their thinking for them. While I applaude their spirit, I am dumbfounded in their attempt to do the equivalent to climbing Mt. Everest in sneakers and shorts. Sure you could try it, but no veteran climber would even think of it!

This reminds me of threads from a year or so ago, where folks were discussing the merits of taking some of the "CE Ocean Rated", or other such rating systems for mass production boats, off shore. Relying on a chart and numbers to make them feel comfy that their boat would make it. Those ratings are for the manufacturers, not the buying public, so their legal department will have a leg to stand on when your shiny new BeneHunteLina breaks apart in a big sustained blow.

I cicumnavigation is an adventure of the highest degree. While I have a number of ocean crossings to my credit, I long for the day when I too will be able to cast off for doing "A Lap" of the globe. Maybe I will never do it. But if I do, I can assure you that it will not be taken lightly.


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## SailinJay (Dec 6, 2002)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

How about giving the "BeneHunteLina" line a rest? It''s an elitest codeword on this BB and has grown tiresome. Thanks.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Would you prefer, ''BeneHunteLinaVaria''? Seriously, these are the big four out there, whose basic model lines produce value oriented coastal cruisers. There is nothing inherently pajurative about producing value oriented coastal cruisers since these boats work reasonably for a very large portion of the sailing population. I don''t think that the term ''BeneHunteLinaVaria''is being elitist as much as it simply using a short-hand for ''large production quantity, value oriented, coastal cruisers''.

Jeff


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

If the term "BeneHunteLinaVaria" is simply a short-hand term for "large production quantity value oriented coastal cruisers," it is inaccurate, because these boats are not all just coastal cruisers. Knowledgeable people have expressed their view that some of the boats built by these companies are good racers and that some are bluewater capable. These companies build boats that are suitable for the gamut of uses, not just for coastal cruising.

Moreover, the term is ambiguous. It can be read as being either complimentary or insulting. It is a compliment to say that a company offers the consumer a good value, and that its product is in such demand as to require the company to produce large numbers of their product. Whether you intend to use the term in that manner raises a question of your intent. Although I haven't taken a poll on the term, I would bet that more people would think that the use of the term is insensitive at the least, and rude, insulting and elitist at the worst. Thus, whether you intend, in the private recesses of your mind, to use the term in an insulting manner, you will cause many people to believe you to be an insulting, insensitive elitist. The question I have to ask is, why would you continue to use the term, knowing that it causes many people to form an unfavorable opinion of you? Would you make a joke about a hijacking in an airport, knowing that it would probably be alarming to many people, and that it might cause an adverse reaction towards you personally? If not, then why would you use that term, knowing that it reflects poorly on you in the eyes of many people? It's just good manners to avoid insulting others, whether intentionally or inadvertantly, and it''s just good sense to avoid saying things that don''t reflect well on you.


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## GordMay (Dec 19, 2002)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

I suppose you'd also object to the use of "Ford" or Chevy" to denote an affordably priced "standard quality" item, as opposed to a "Rolles" denoting a premium priced "luxury" item? 
A little insecure, for some reason, are we ...
All of these manufacturers engage in "branding", which is INTENDED to create an instantaneous "immage" in the consumers'' mind. I don''t see why anyone should object to our shorthand use of this branding image.
I suppose I''m just insensitive.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

I didn't say the term bothers ME. For months, I've seen a lot of nice people who frequent this forum who have taken offense to the use of the term. Even though the term doesn't bother me, I think their objections are understandable, but their objections keep falling on deaf ears. People who are unresponsive to the moods and feelings of others are, by definition, insensitive. I'm just asking the question out loud, "Why would anyone persist in saying something that they know to be offensive to a lot of nice people?"


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

ok back to bumfuzzle ..lol

I aplaud their "balls" to go out and "do it" instead of me dreaming it. They seem to be nice folks and certainly have written nice emails back and forth to the wildcat crew ...

3 years back I was with my wife in Annapolis at the show. Lookin at Cats for our "dream" It just might be that I have been in that exaclty wildcat they have now. Neiter me nor my wife was very happy with the construction quality we could see " walking" through the boat. But the stories we heard let us believe that the wildcat is excellent for long term cruising, very safe and overbuilt.. If the folks got the same story, than nobody can say that they didnt do their homework....

As for the surveyor... I think 500 dlrs is a lot of money, therefore I would suspect that the surveyor would have found delamination , especially THAT MUCH of it. Besides the water in the keels should have given a huge reading while checkin for osmosis.... Than the surveyor says: I dont like those cats,..... If he really dont like them, why doesnt he check them more dilligent than the ones he likes ??? ( Obviously he does know something about them in order to dislike the builder ) After all he signed the survey and found the boat in good order ...???? Cant blame the bummfuzzzles for not doing the right thing .
......
Of course its disheartening that these guys have a ball and living the dream, while at the same time they dont know how to tie a bowline...lol ...

Back to Wildcat. I didnt like the boat on the show, because of lacking quality ( I hope I dont get a letter from them now ) ANd I sure dont like it after I read all the ANSWERS from them in regards of their sloppy work.

You go guys and keep the itinery coming its refreshing ... and if you need somebody to make a bowline I am ready just email me ...

Thorsten

p.s. It doesnt seem that the two are too strapped for money , it would have been SOOO easy to come to a fair agreement between them and the builder .... Wildcat screwed them and in the process themselves .


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

ok back to bumfuzzle ..lol

I aplaud their "balls" to go out and "do it" instead of me dreaming it. They seem to be nice folks and certainly have written nice emails back and forth to the wildcat crew ...

3 years back I was with my wife in Annapolis at the show. Lookin at Cats for our "dream" It just might be that I have been in that exaclty wildcat they have now. Neiter me nor my wife was very happy with the construction quality we could see " walking" through the boat. But the stories we heard let us believe that the wildcat is excellent for long term cruising, very safe and overbuilt.. If the folks got the same story, than nobody can say that they didnt do their homework....

As for the surveyor... I think 500 dlrs is a lot of money, therefore I would suspect that the surveyor would have found delamination , especially THAT MUCH of it. Besides the water in the keels should have given a huge reading while checkin for osmosis.... Than the surveyor says: I dont like those cats,..... If he really dont like them, why doesnt he check them more dilligent than the ones he likes ??? ( Obviously he does know something about them in order to dislike the builder ) After all he signed the survey and found the boat in good order ...???? Cant blame the bummfuzzzles for not doing the right thing .
......
Of course its disheartening that these guys have a ball and living the dream, while at the same time they dont know how to tie a bowline...lol ...

Back to Wildcat. I didnt like the boat on the show, because of lacking quality ( I hope I dont get a letter from them now ) ANd I sure dont like it after I read all the ANSWERS from them in regards of their sloppy work.

You go guys and keep the itinery coming its refreshing ... and if you need somebody to make a bowline I am ready just email me ...

Thorsten

p.s. It doesnt seem that the two are too strapped for money , it would have been SOOO easy to come to a fair agreement between them and the builder .... Wildcat screwed them and in the process themselves .


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## Silmaril (Feb 22, 2003)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

OK, I am insensitive, opinionated and a number of other things I''d care not to mention. That is the way I am. I don''t suffer fools lightly, either.

I am also horrified by our litigous society here in the states, always looking for other people to blame for our shortsightedness. Yes there are people who were wronged in this world, and those few should be compensated for it. Hundreds of thousands of dollars for hot coffee spilled in your lap? Awe, come on...

If people spent less time worrying about being politically correct, and more time worrying about things that matter, maybe we could get somewhere.

I don''t give a damn who''s feelings I hurt. I just don''t want to have to pay for it when some fool pushes the envelope way beyond practicality. How do I pay? By the higher insurance premiums I have to pay.

I have not had a car accedent in over 30 years, I have not had a "boating incedent" in all my years of ownership. Not ONE!!!! I am a cautious person by nature, but I am by no means a wimp. Funny thing is, when I raced cars, I never had a costly wreck, either, yet placed highly in all events I participated in. I always knew the limits of my equipment, always competed with everything in top condition.

I suppose all the hurt BHLB owners are looking to sue me for their potential shame the wrongly feel. No shame in the boat you own. You are on the water, sailing, and capturing those fleeting moments of oneness with nature and the ocean. Bravo! But PLEASE know the limits of your knowledge and don''t expect others to pay for your ignorance.

In boating, there is the phrase "More money than brains". As I said earlier, I admire the moxie of the Bumfuzzle crew. But geeze, how about starting out with more modest goals, building a good base of knowledge, building on that, and THEN taking it to the next level.

This whole instant gratification thing is getting out of hand. It actually takes work to achieve things in life, not just an endless bankroll. The "V Tailed Dr. Killer" comes to mind. (But DAMN those Mooney''s look sweet)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Silmaril, right on!!!
I also admire their moxie and the fact that they are out sailing while I''m still earning and learning to go but...
There are already places where insurance or a guaranteed sum is required just to go legally. The main reason is ill-prepared sailors entering these areas then hitting the panic button to have their asses saved.
This will only get worse as systems improve allowing larger boats to sail w/ smaller crews. Fine when things go well but bigger problems when things go wrong. Thats o.k. Improved comunications means help is a call away. Fleeting are the days when a good captain was reserved to drown like a gentleman if this fickle mistress deemed his efforts and equiptment unworthy. I''m not saying a vessel in distress should not call out but I have read so many stories of gps failures or lumpy seas resulting in a call to the Coast Guard. Mandatory auto insurance. How long before we see this happen w/ boats? Don''t think it can happen? You better wake up and see the real world.
If a section of the population imposes too heavily on another there will be repercusions. Throwing caution to the wind is cool if you are ready to take resposibility for what the wind blows back, and it will. I wish the crew of Bumfuzzle the best of luck as that seems to be mostly what they are sailing on.
fair winds to all


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

I dont get it folks ..

They are NOT suing anybody ( I would sue the manufacturer of the boat, after all he is selling a 5 year warranty with it )

They are NOT in distress and do not need help from any of those "correct" cruisers, although they are thankful of all advice given ... so whats the problem

I can see a little bitterness here, from all the armchair circumnavigators who of course know everything and would go well prepared and knowledgeable of all anchorages and so forth ... Point is with a very few exceptions ( I think Whoooosh is actually on a boat in europe ) we are sitting here at work and are jealous ...

while bumfuzzle has a great time...

I dont have that kind of dough to make it, even if I would live the "regular" cruissing lifestyle, but that doesnt mean i have to diss the folks ...

Thorsten


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## IttyKitty (Feb 18, 2005)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Maybe just my connection but http://www.bumfuzzle.com seems to be no longer.

Time to dawns tinfoil hat and duck for cover.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Seems to me their whole adventure speaks volumes about how safe and seaworthy a catamaran can be.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Ittykitty I can''t get www.bumfuzzle any longer either, can someone else block anothers webs site? is the tinfoil hat meaning dashit may have hit the fan for what they were posting aout the manufactorer?


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## IttyKitty (Feb 18, 2005)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Yeah that''s what my inner Oliver Stone was suggesting.

I did some further digging and their entire DNS record has been wiped out. Again not sure what the deal is. I''ve emailed Pat and Ali and will let you know if I hear something.


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## IttyKitty (Feb 18, 2005)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Bumfuzzle is back online. Not sure what happened but happy it is back.


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Just a short observation that hasn''t already been made: The easy part of Pat & Ali''s intended Circle is just about finished. Given their limited effort & success in mastering sailing and the complexities of their boat, I''m hopeful that by the time they reach the Coral Coast, they will begin to hear enough about what lies ahead to wonder about the rest of the passage. The Coconut Milk Run is almost over, and there seems good reason to suspect that neither they nor their boat would be suitable for a run around a great southern cape or the Red Sea. They seem like nice kids and not deserving of that kind of ''adventure''.

Jack


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## haggis01 (Apr 8, 2005)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

I tend to side with the owner on this one.

Firstly, Charter Cats was, to put it very politely, extremely lethargic and sloppy about addressing some serious problems with a very new boat which they had manufactured.

As posted, the chronology of the Charter Cat email responses spans months, it is rife with lack of follow-up, poor internal communication and a seemingly wilful inablility to address the problems in a concise, logical and professional manner. They also seek to excuse their tardiness with bizarre explanations (he hasn''t seen it / our email is down / they''re at a boat show abroad / the exchange rate sucks) - apparently the only one they missed was the dog eating their email server. Though the dog excuse may be their ace in the hole.

Even I, by casually parsing the correspondence, have a pretty good grasp of what the owners are trying to convey:

1. It is a 2 1/2 year old boat which they''ve owned for about a year and a half.

2. It was surveyed in Florida, without defects being discovered at the time of survey which was about 1 year after the manufacture date.

3. Problems became apparent in Panama, and critical in NZ some few months later. So critical that it required repairs in order for them to feel comfortable to continue their voyage.

4. CC apparently has a warranty programme which shouldn''t preclude a second (or third) owner of a fairly new boat from follow-up service. Warranties usually accrue to the product not the owner.

5. And, I don''t recall anything in the owners correspondence suggesting it had been struck by lightening. And presumably, the previous owner would have had an insurance claim if that were the case. Not to mention a bit of charred glass somewhere on the boat.

In my opinion Charter Cats actions should have been first and foremost to be prompt, attentive and timely in their response.

They failed abjectly on that count.

To my thinking, a conscientious builder would have undertaken the following actions:

1. A timely response which identifies the person in the company who will be responsible for following up. And, in this era of email, being at a boat show in Miami or wherever, doesn''t excuse not making a timely response to a customer.

2. Upon ascertaining the location of the vessel, the original surveryors comments and the owners assessment of the problem, Charter Cats should have proposed a course of action. Which, IMHO, would be to nominate a local surveyor (and other experts as required) to inspect the boat.

3. And based upon those findings, a course of remedial works and compensation should be agreed upon. Or not, in which case there''s at least ground work for a negotiated settlement.

In fact, it looks like CC simply pushed the issue to the back burner, despite the owners correspondence - over months - indicating that they needed to proceed with remedial works. When the final bill was tallied, CC seemed to conjure up a lightening strike out of thin air (is if it were ever any other way) as a straw man argument to walk away from the problem. They even "wrote off" their own product for insurance purposes without ever obtaining an independent assessment of the problem - how professional is that?

The owner was naive in not seeking an independent assessment before commencing remedial works - but - as the builder and expert in these matters, CC should have had a very quick and logical response to the owners very valid concerns. And a suggested course of action for the owner to follow.

Instead, CC let events take their course rather than steer their own ship as it were. And their subsequent "lightening strike" theory makes them look like a bunch of weasels. And not terribly clever weasels to boot.

Much has been said concerning the owners inexperience and naivete in regards sailing. But, in my opinion, that is not germain to the issue of a builder refusing to stand behind his product.

Flaws in workmanship happen, but what defines a great boat builder is how they act to rectify their mistakes.

And hands up, how many out there would ever consider buying a Charter Cat after reading this sorry saga?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Not I, If I drop up to a quarter of million dollars on a product I don''t want to hear excuses after asking the same question 10x. Unfortunately the company probably won''t suffer severe sale loss due to this. But they won''t ever see a sale from these pockets ever. To boot I wouldn''t mind stopping by the booth next boat show (maybe Annapolis in Oct) to mention to them that they build a bueatiful looking product to bad they don''t stand behind it. The one thing I couldn''t get over is they do have a waruantee and numerous times they stated well it''s almost 3yrs old? As if the waruantee is pro-rated based on close to the end it is? Unprofessional to say the least.


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## rpack (Apr 2, 2005)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

As someone new to this discussion who is also researching cats, I have a couple of observations.

One, the Bumfuzzles are certainly not risk-averse, which has some appeal for adventure, but I wouldn''t crew for them.

Two, from looking at their most recent posting (engine overheating, which was not detected due to the temp sensor not being connected, thus leading to, at the least, a cracked block if not a completely thrashed engine), it is apparent that they aren''t doing routine inspections or they don''t know what they should be inspecting. The disconnected sensor should have been caught a long time ago. While it might not have prevented the first overheating, it might have prevented it from going to the point of the loss of the engine.

Three, Charter Cats'' response to the hull problem shows us what sort of company they are. While their Jaguar 36 at least caught my eye for consideration, they are now definitely off my short list. If their response to the Bumfuzzles cost them only three sales, assuming a 10% profit on a $300K boat, their unwillingness to do the right thing (which might have cost them $20K), has cost them $90K in profit. Of course, since lots of potential buyers browse the ''net and forums like this, the true costs to the company may end up being much more.

Richard


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## PDXSailing (Apr 14, 2005)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

I''ve also read the logs, and the most recent reports that their engine may need $5,000 in repairs. I''d like to cruise, but I doubt I could plan so much financial latitude into the trip.

At the risk of sounding obvious, I''d be tempted to think the following:

1)Multiple-year cost containment plans may be critical to boat and equipment choice.

2)An older boat, most likely a monohull, with more of a "history" of cruising may be a safer bet that something one year old but untested.

3) Not being able to maintain and field-strip your engine sounds like a recipe for disaster.

4) Having simplier systems (larger, well- maintained tanks instead of a water maker) seems a safer bet in terms of cost containment.

5) Starting with a smaller boat (perhaps with a diesel), for several years of coastal cruising, could be a solid investment in experience.

One last thing I don''t understand-- why the move to larger boats overall for crusing? I understand that living aboard for several years may really lead to the desire for refrigeration, water makers, pressurized hot water showers, better lighting systems, etc. However, it seems like the expense and complexity could really cut into the reasons for being crusing to begin with.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

PDX...in answer to your last question about the move to larger boats. Many of us go cruising to enjoy other people and places but have no desire to go "camping". Our boats are our homes and we want to be comfortable and not have to forego "luxuries" like cold drinks, hot showers and even the internet! You are correct in stating that every new complexity costs money and results in more potential breakdowns and we need to weigh each addition to our boats in light of this. We also like to have guests join us so need space for them and storage for our personal items. As bigger boats have become easier to handle shorthanded over the years it has become possible to have all of this and I believe this is one of the resasons so many more people are out cruising today...unlike the dedicated minimalists who led the way years ago and who still populate many anchorages. In short...now there is a choice!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Hi - this is my first post as the weather is too crap to sail today. I can''t believe all the yacking that goes on in this board about their boat!! Me and my wife are also young in our late 20''s and are in the 1st year of our circumnavigation. My wife had never sailed and I have some experience and we have managed. The schionning designed Wildcat is not a bad boat for a circumnavigation and @ 35 ft is a good compromise. All boats are compromises - after all ours is a steel 38 footer bullet proof but slow. The Wildcat has the ability to maintain a higher speed and thus has the ability to avoid storms where as we are forced to run or punch our way through them. I have personally sailed a simular sized cat over the Tasman Sea in 7 metre seas and 55 knots of wind without any problems - we just set the sea anchor and went to bed. I think some of you guys in here need to get a life and actually start a circumnavigation - it takes balls - especially if you are new to the game


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Hi - this is my first post as the weather is too crap to sail today. I can''t believe all the yacking that goes on in this board about their boat!! Me and my wife are also young in our late 20''s and are in the 1st year of our circumnavigation. My wife had never sailed and I have some experience and we have managed. The schionning designed Wildcat is not a bad boat for a circumnavigation and @ 35 ft is a good compromise. All boats are compromises - after all ours is a steel 38 footer bullet proof but slow. The Wildcat has the ability to maintain a higher speed and thus has the ability to avoid storms where as we are forced to run or punch our way through them. I have personally sailed a simular sized cat over the Tasman Sea in 7 metre seas and 55 knots of wind without any problems - we just set the sea anchor and went to bed. I think some of you guys in here need to get a life and actually start a circumnavigation - it takes balls - especially if you are new to the game - also we also enjoy our beer and mackers burgers!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Bumfuzzle - who''''s right?*

Hi - this is my first post as the weather is too crap to sail today. I can''t believe all the yacking that goes on in this board about their boat!! Me and my wife are also young in our late 20''s and are in the 1st year of our circumnavigation. My wife had never sailed and I have some experience and we have managed. The schionning designed Wildcat is not a bad boat for a circumnavigation and @ 35 ft is a good compromise. All boats are compromises - after all ours is a steel 38 footer bullet proof but slow. The Wildcat has the ability to maintain a higher speed and thus has the ability to avoid storms where as we are forced to run or punch our way through them. I have personally sailed a simular sized cat over the Tasman Sea in 7 metre seas and 55 knots of wind without any problems - we just set the sea anchor and went to bed. I think some of you guys in here need to get a life and actually start a circumnavigation - it takes balls - especially if you are new to the game - also we also enjoy our beer and mackers burgers!


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