# Why are wheels so big?



## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

I don't understand why the steering wheels on sailboats need to be so large.


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## wuffiesails (Jul 15, 2012)

For racing boats, big wheels allow the helmsman to sit further to windward for better visibility of the jib luff (and tell-tails) and to move weight to the rail.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

Ninefingers said:


> I don't understand why the steering wheels on sailboats need to be so large.


So you can sit on the windward side and steer. The large diameter also give you the leverage to steer with minimal effort.


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

Puddin'_Tain said:


> So you can sit on the windward side and steer. The large diameter also give you the leverage to steer with minimal effort.


I agree about widward sitting and better visibility, but I do not agree about leverage. One can achieve same leverage with either a larger wheel or larger gear ratio to steering quadrant.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

Ever driven a boat w/ a small wheel in a following sea. Not fun.
Jim


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

tomaz_423 said:


> I agree about widward sitting and better visibility, but I do not agree about leverage. One can achieve same leverage with either a larger wheel or larger gear ratio to steering quadrant.


While it is possible to achieve the same leverage by increasing the gear ratio, it comes at the price of greater friction. While the whole sight lines issue is certainly a major factor, The idea about large wheels for cruising boats is to minimize the frictional losses while maintaining a light helm so as to not wear out the helmsman, or the autopilot. 
Jeff


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

To make the helmsman feel bit and Macho.


.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

An amplification of JeffH's comments:

Another quite important factor for simplicity of 'leverage' as provided by the common large wheel system is that such a system is whats known as 'overhauling' ... meaning that when the boat is moving forward, when the wheel is 'released' by the helmsman, the wheel will _automatically return back to center_ and the boat will come close to sailing in a straight line --- all by itself. 
The same 'overhauling' design is found on automobiles: force the wheel to make the turn, release pressure on the steering wheel and the forward motion of the vehicle automatically returns the wheel to near 'dead center'. Imagine if you had to always 'actively' steer an automobile for both steering wheel directions - into the turn and then back to center !!!!

In contrast, with a complex gear/lever system that has great 'mechanical advantage' as needed by a 'small' wheel youll find that youll have to FORCE such a (small) wheel back to its centered position and with an accompanied reduction of feedback you'll hardly ever know where the boat is now heading without constant visual clues. A blind man can easily steer a boat with an overhauling steering system; virtually impossible for that blind man to do with non-overhauling steering!!!! With non-overhauling steering (high mechanical advantage/small wheel) sailing at night becomes an extremely tiring 'struggle' even if the input forces on the steering system are small.
Inotherwords, with a non-overhauling system, one must 'actively' steer the boat in both directions: steering to new course and then actively steering the wheel _back to center_ - for TWICE the work! Many 'cruising' boats from the 80's and early 90s with high mechanical advantage ('rack and pinion', etc.) and 'small' wheel steering are like this - a royal PITA to steer, especially at night. Additionally, such 'high mechanical advantage' systems do not provide much 'feedback' to the helmsman and even with minimal force needed to turn the wheel, the AMOUNT of constant 'active' steering needed is extra-tiring.

Rx: dont steer a sailboat as if youre driving a bus. Get out from behind that wheel and sit your butt on the cap rail to watch the jib's leading edge luff shape. The bigger the wheel, the further away from the boat's center line you can sit ... so you can easily watch for that all important 'luff break' on the jib.

;-)


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

wuffiesails said:


> For racing boats, big wheels allow the helmsman to sit further to windward for better visibility of the jib luff (and tell-tails) and to move weight to the rail.


Only race boats
Aha i understand cruisers don't go to windward....


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

Now I understand why a worm gear never caught on. TY.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

RichH said:


> *Rx: dont steer a sailboat as if youre driving a bus.* Get out from behind that wheel and sit your butt on the cap rail to watch the jib's leading edge luff shape. The bigger the wheel, the further away from the boat's center line you can sit ... so you can easily watch for that all important 'luff break' on the jib.
> 
> ;-)


Sorry, but that's becoming a heretical notion, today... What, you didn't see that Mega Throne mounted behind the helm on the Seaward 46 at the Annapolis show a while back?

)










Every year, I'm seeing more and more boats being fitted out with these things... Time to get with the program, Rich... )










Hard to imagine a more comfortable steering position in a seaway, no?



Sailing comfort is the Helmseat


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Our last boat had an 'ego' wheel, and a somewhat unique A frame support pedestal.. We did a lot of upwind sailing and the best seating was outboard, to windward, straddling the wheel with your feet propped on the sides of the pedestal. Loved that set up!


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Well Jon, sadly I guess youre correct ... have you ever seen the 'helm station' on a Moxie "Island Hopper" Catamaran? .... complete with a round dining table sized 'window' and located directly behind the mast?

If you havent, imagine steering an 18 wheeled over-the-road Kenworth semi .... with the steering wheel just aft of the friggin RADIATOR. WTF


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I would venture a guess that a significant number of the newer boats, and all the high-priced ocean racing boats, have hydraulic steering, which means the boat could be steered with a joy-stick. My boat has a relatively small wheel, but not hydraulic steering - just a somewhat larger quadrant, which makes it almost feel like power steering at times. Sure, I get some weather helm, but it's not severe.

One of the biggest benefits of the smaller wheel is that no one has to climb over anything to get to the helm. Additionally, when the helm station was installed, it was intentionally installed offset to port so the mast was not always directly in your line of sight.

My helm seat is a very comfortable, pedestal mounted, swivel helm seat that would normally be used on a powerboat. It has padded arm rests, padded back rest, and I added another cushion for the seat to make it even more comfortable, and to raise my height a bit so I could see the compass better. I've spent up to 12 hours behind the wheel in this seat and never had any discomfort at all.










In the not too distant future, I can readily envision the helm seat with a joy-stick handle at the end of the arm-rest and no wheel at all. Makes perfectly good sense to me. 

Cheers,

Gary


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

small wheels use the gears to get the leverage but at the coast of more turns of the wheel to go from lock to lock. most large wheel boats with mechanical steering are only 3/4 turn from lock to lock. 
a lot of the new boats are fitting with two smaller wheels because the cockpits are so much wider on the new designs.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

overbored said:


> .....
> a lot of the new boats are fitting with two smaller wheels because the cockpits are so much wider on the new designs.


Once again, to get the helmsperson outboard with good sightlines.. which these super wide cockpits couldn't do with a single wheel anymore - the 'wheel well' would be deeper than the hull itself..

but imagine the single-finger touch of a 12 foot wheel!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I don't like wheels that are set in slots. Somehow, something small but important (or messy) will always get in there at the least convenient moment and then you've got to figure out how to get it out again.

But it sounds like I'm the only one who got the memo:

Racing boats DO NOT have large wheels any more! Large wheels went out shortly after chaining the slaves to the oars. Racing boats now have two small wheels, one offset to each side, so the helmsman can always sit high, always reach the wheel, and have less clutter aft.

And a proper helm throne? Come on, guys. Doesn't anyone read their Hammacher Schlemmer catalogue any more? They all come with heated massage rollers these days. That cheap stuff with just plain padding....I don't know, I think you folks have been slumming for too long!


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Faster said:


> Once again, to get the helmsperson outboard with good sightlines.. which these super wide cockpits couldn't do with a single wheel anymore ..............!


Yup; but also too, these 'fat assed' broad-beamers NEED two rudders ... so that when on a decent heel, one rudder is always submerged and not cavitating and totally losing its bite ..... causing the crew to do an instant face-plant onto the deck as the boat instantly snap-pirouettes out of control.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Well, Once again I find myself the subject of Sailnet ridicule due to my pursuit of comfort afloat. I'm with Gary, after standing from San Francisco to San Diego first thing I bought was a cushy seat.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

My wheel is only 20", it's a bit too small IMO, I'd prefer 24", those couple of extra inches would make it just a touch more comfortable to steer from the windward coaming without significantly affecting the ease of getting around it.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

PaulinVictoria said:


> My wheel is only 20", it's a bit too small IMO, I'd prefer 24", those couple of extra inches would make it just a touch more comfortable to steer from the windward coaming without significantly affecting the ease of getting around it.


We had a similar complaint and were able to find another boater who wanted to go the other way - so we swapped!.. Everybody happy now..


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

Ah, never considered how a big wheel allows you sit outboard more. Blind to obvious I am. 

I don't totally agree with the notice that you need them for leverage though. I wonder if anyone has ever had two sizes of wheels on board. One for fair weather and autopiloting - if only to make more room in the cockpit.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Ninefingers said:


> Ah, never considered how a big wheel allows you sit outboard more. Blind to obvious I am.
> 
> I don't totally agree with the notice that you need them for leverage though. I wonder if anyone has ever had two sizes of wheels on board. One for fair weather and autopiloting - if only to make more room in the cockpit.


A practical, but not cheap, solution to the 'room in cockpit' aspect is Lewmar's folding wheel.

http://www.lewmar.com/products.asp?id=8538&channel=1

Others simply remove the wheel and strap it to a lifeline or pulpit for socializing at rest.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Yup; but also too, these 'fat assed' broad-beamers NEED two rudders "

Rich, surely you are jesting, you know better than that.

Those boats don't NEED two rudders. But the fact is that having two shallow rudders, and keeping one out of the water while the other is more vertical in the water, reduces the drag from the rudders to about 1/2 of what one traditional deep (long) rudder would have.

Those boats don't NEED two rudders, but having two rudders is FASTER than dragging one bigass plank behind the boat. Any boat that heels could benefit from that, if the owners were willing to PAY for performance.

Heck, even a Laser28 could benefit from that.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

travlineasy said:


> I would venture a guess that a significant number of the newer boats, and all the high-priced ocean racing boats, have hydraulic steering, which means the boat could be steered with a joy-stick. :


Hydraulic steering is almost never used on race boats and for the most part is only used on larger luxury cruising boats. Hydraulics tend to be expensive, unreliable, high maintenance, and have minimal feel. That said, many larger boats used hydraulic rams for their autopilots.



travlineasy said:


> My helm seat is a very comfortable, pedestal mounted, swivel helm seat that would normally be used on a powerboat. :


That type of seat works well when motoring down the intercoastal but makes no sense if you are trying to get decent sailing performance, and makes it very hard to keep a decent lookout when under sail.



travlineasy said:


> In the not too distant future, I can readily envision the helm seat with a joy-stick handle at the end of the arm-rest and no wheel at all. Makes perfectly good sense to me.
> Gary


Actually that exists today to some extent, although its even worse since the joy stick is on the portable remote device for the autopilot.



Ninefingers said:


> Ah, never considered how a big wheel allows you sit outboard more. Blind to obvious I am.
> 
> I don't totally agree with the notice that you need them for leverage though. I wonder if anyone has ever had two sizes of wheels on board. One for fair weather and autopiloting - if only to make more room in the cockpit.





Ninefingers said:


> I don't totally agree with the notice that you need them for leverage though. I wonder if anyone has ever had two sizes of wheels on board. One for fair weather and autopiloting - if only to make more room in the cockpit.


My boat came with three wheels; a 60" four-spoke, titanium racing wheel, a 56" 10-spoke, stainless steel offshore racing wheel, and a 42" 'cruising' wheel which I suspect was the original wheel for the boat. The 60" racing wheel is an abolute joy to steel. The lack of momentum and precision teel is amazing.

The 56" wheel has a very solid feel, but it has a lot more momentum and so is a bit more tiring to steer and you feel it in your wrists after a very long sail (8-12 hours on the helm).

The downsides of the big wheels is that it takes a bit of wiggle to slither past the wheel and the space between the wheel and the side of the cockpit is not for the corn fed.

I have only mounted the 'cruising wheel' once. Besides for looking silly and not being able to reach the wheel when sitting in a postion where you could see over the cabin or look up the slot, it was very difficult to steer a straight course since small movements of the wheel were bigger movements of the rudder and it took more force to move the wheel so you were more prone to oversteer.










(My wife Barbara testing the limits of heel before a wipe-out, not that she actually wanted to find the limit....)

Jeff


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Jeff, I disagree with you on that seat. I've sailed both Chesapeake Bay and offshore using that seat, my view in completely unobstructed, and because the seat swivels and locks, I can position it any way I want. Don't knock it till you've tried it.

And, I wouldn't take any bets on the hydraulic steering on race boats, either. I've owned several powerboats with hydraulic steering, never had a minutes problem - ever! They're rugged, very reliable, and no worries about weather helm.

Gary


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

capttb said:


> Well, Once again I find myself the subject of Sailnet ridicule due to my pursuit of comfort afloat. I'm with Gary, after standing from San Francisco to San Diego first thing I bought was a cushy seat.


Hey, if that works well for you, good on 'ya...

As Jeff says, such seats can be nice while motoring in flat water, with a book or a drink in one hand, and an autopilot remote in the other  But I have yet to ever see a forward-facing helm seat on a sailboat that would not become extremely tiring to use in very short order when steering in a seaway, or become very uncomfortable at a 15-20 degree angle of heel... But hell, perhaps that's just me... ;-)

I've spent a fair amount of time with my butt parked in some very expensive state of the art helm seats from manufacturers such as Stidd or Recaro, steering sportfishermen or top-heavy motoryachts in a following or quartering sea...

In my experience, there is a very good reason why on virtually all such boats that will be helmed from such a seating position, are following the lead of bus drivers and truckers in their use of the most ergonomic orientation of their wheels is far and away the best, and least tiring solution...

anyone ever seen a bus, or an 18-wheeler, with a wheel mounted vertically? I didn't think so... )


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

travlineasy said:


> Jeff, I disagree with you on that seat. I've sailed both Chesapeake Bay and offshore using that seat, my view in completely unobstructed, and because the seat swivels and locks, I can position it any way I want. Don't knock it till you've tried it.
> 
> And, I wouldn't take any bets on the hydraulic steering on race boats, either. I've owned several powerboats with hydraulic steering, never had a minutes problem - ever! They're rugged, very reliable, and no worries about weather helm.
> 
> Gary


Gary,

If you can sit on that seat and see under your genoa, let alone see the slot, then your genoa was cut too high for decent performance.

You obviously have not spent much time around race boats. I would take you bet about the majority of race boats not having hydraulics since I have seen a bunch of their steering systems over the years. Race boat helmsmen have no worries about feeling weather helm, because they want to feel it to make sure that the crew is trimming to keep weather helm to a minimum.

And if you had ever lived with a hydraulic system on a sailboat, you would know about needing to check hoses and get the cylinders rebuilt with a fair degree of regularity to maintain reliability, and that awful feeling when you see the pool of hydrualic fluid in the locker after the helm went spongy on you.

Jeff


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

no hydraulic steering for me on sailboats either, hell no! now a hydraulic ram autohelm maybe

I love chain drives I think they are the simplest and easiest to fix, maybe cause Im into motorcycles and stuff!

here is a question for the pros

are there any belt driven systems out there? seems the lightweight would be a benefit here, especially on racing boats...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Faster said:


> Our last boat had an 'ego' wheel, and a somewhat unique A frame support pedestal.. We did a lot of upwind sailing and the best seating was outboard, to windward, straddling the wheel with your feet propped on the sides of the pedestal. Loved that set up!


Nice... but, I'll bet that setup might give one pause, when maneuvering around behind the wheel during a switch of the helmsman on a dirty night offshore, no? )

I've never been able to shake the feeling that the massively oversized wheel on his J-46 CIELITA might have been a significant contributing factor to the loss of Ned Cabot in a gale off the west coast of Newfoundland a few years ago. After all, he had just come on deck, and was in the process of taking the helm when they were knocked down, and Ned went overboard...










That's always been one of my biggest objections to wheels on smaller boats, the risk of exposure during the simple act of climbing back around them...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> (My wife Barbara testing the limits of heel before a wipe-out, not that she actually wanted to find the limit....)
> 
> Jeff


Lookin' _GOOD_, Jeff... But I'd say she rates some elkhide on that thing, no?

)

Tell her I said Hi...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> And if you had ever lived with a hydraulic system on a sailboat, you would know about needing to check hoses and get the cylinders rebuilt with a fair degree of regularity to maintain reliability, and that awful feeling when you see the pool of hydrualic fluid in the locker after the helm went spongy on you.
> 
> Jeff


Our old friend Pete from Florida Rigging just spent a week aboard a big Oyster in Charleston, re-doing the hydraulics... _EVERYTHING_ on that boat is hydraulic, from steering to furlers to windlasses to toilet seats... )

To hear him describe it, an absolute nightmare... Complexity that rivals that of a nuclear power plant, all living within the deepest recesses of the bilge...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Jeff .... how does a large(r) wheel assist the auto pilot ? Paint me confused.

Fast .... we went with one of those Lewmar wheels a while back. Allowed for a larger diameter but still better access through the cockpit. All good but I doubt they are quite as strong as non folding type. Diameter of the rim is also less than original. I'd prefer the thicker rim.

I remember once seeing a cruising boat that had a Momo type car wheel so that they could replace main wheel when anchored but still have a usable whell if something untoward happened.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

JonEisberg said:


> Our old friend Pete from Florida Rigging just spent a week aboard a big Oyster in Charleston, re-doing the hydraulics... _EVERYTHING_ on that boat is hydraulic, from steering to furlers to windlasses to toilet seats... )
> 
> To hear him describe it, an absolute nightmare... Complexity that rivals that of a nuclear power plant, all living within the deepest recesses of the bilge...


Are you still in touch with Pete? He's a great guy. He rebuilt the hydraulics on my Dad's Brewer some years ago. He and I were once talking about the idea that hydraulic steering had its popularity because designers and boat boat builders did not have figure out how to run and hide a conventional system. The problem with being able to hide components in out of the way places is that the components ended up in just those hidden inaccessible locations.

I tend to agree with you about the safety of tillers on boats under about 35 feet.

I am not a big elk hide fan for reasons beyond my vegetarian beliefs. Around here they tend to get moldy, and they hold water which can be very uncomfortable in winter sailing. Beside the titanium wheel does not seem to hold cold.

Barbara says hello back. Please give us a call when you are near our neck of the woods.
Jeff


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

tdw said:


> Jeff .... how does a large(r) wheel assist the auto pilot ? Paint me Confused.


The larger wheel allows a lower power mechanical advantage which means less friction so the autopilot has less friction to overcome and a wheel pilot has smaller movements.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Jeff_H said:


> The larger wheel allows a lower power mechanical advantage which means less friction so the autopilot has less friction to overcome and a wheel pilot has smaller movements.


paint me confused too if using a wheel pilot that would be true if you make the radius of the attachment wheel larger meaning the forces needed by the wheel pilot motor will be less(same applies if you make the motor gear smaller) however the movements will be longer

the outer rim(steerinf wheel) has very little effect unless we are talking extremely heavy wheels which of course require more power

or am I missing something here?

its like changing sprockets on a bike...make the counter sprocket(drive smaller you loose top end speed but increase torque(more movement) make it equal or bigger than the wheel sprocket you increase top speed however you risk overloading the engine and not being able to start...

or maybe Im not understanding the scenario

its the attachment point that determines how hard or not the autopilot works(friction as well)

on a below decks its how long the ram lever is or where its attached on the quadrant
on a tiller its how far away from the rudder stock

you can be excessive if you attach at the end of the tiller for example as you will run out of tiller pilot arm length(travel) but it will be very easy on the tiller pilot power drain.

dunno just my thoughts


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> The larger wheel allows a lower power mechanical advantage which means less friction so the autopilot has less friction to overcome and a wheel pilot has smaller movements.


Nope, I'm still not getting it.

Our old boat had a wheel pilot, diameter of attachment at the wheel was around 300mm irrespective of overall wheel diameter.

St Malo has below deck which attaches to one of the arms below deck. Again I'm not seeing why overall wheel diameter would effect how that operates.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> Gary,
> 
> If you can sit on that seat and see under your genoa, let alone see the slot, then your genoa was cut too high for decent performance.
> 
> ...


Nuff said,

Gary


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Ninefingers said:


> I don't understand why the steering wheels on sailboats need to be so large.


Undoubtedly asked by someone that has never had to helm a big boat at sea in seriously heavy weather/seas for any time.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> paint me confused too if using a wheel pilot that would be true if you make the radius of the attachment wheel larger meaning the forces needed by the wheel pilot motor will be less(same applies if you make the motor gear smaller) however the movements will be longer
> 
> the outer rim(steerinf wheel) has very little effect unless we are talking extremely heavy wheels which of course require more power
> 
> ...


What jeff means is the bigger the wheel the closer the gears are 1 to 1. the smaller wheel needs to move much further to make the same degree change on the rudder, so the auto pilot is turning thru a greater number of degrees to control the boat.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I think the Ryno electric unicycle was offered at $5000 last year, but there's another company selling one for a paltry $1895 or so now.

Thread drift? No, not at all. It is a seat on a gyrostabilized wheel, and you could easily bolt one up at the helm, so the helmsman always had a nice level seat, actively gyrostabilized, behind the wheel. No matter which way the boat heeled under it.

Really, guys, your helm seat doesn't have active stabilization? Your binocs or phone camera are smarter than your helm or galley oven? Really?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

overbored said:


> What jeff means is the bigger the wheel the closer the gears are 1 to 1. the smaller wheel needs to move much further to make the same degree change on the rudder, so the auto pilot is turning thru a greater number of degrees to control the boat.


So what Jeff is saying applies to the original gear, simply installing a bigger wheel changes nothing. Now that I can get my fuzzy head around.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

overbored said:


> What jeff means is the bigger the wheel the closer the gears are 1 to 1. the smaller wheel needs to move much further to make the same degree change on the rudder, so the auto pilot is turning thru a greater number of degrees to control the boat.


the autopilot does NOT attach to the outer wheel it attaches to the spokes and wheel provided by the autopilot manufacturer the ratio is determined by the autopilot supplied wheels or gears if you will

now if by autopilot you mean joe blow helmsman than yes this is true...on a bigger wheel you have infinitely more fine tuning since you have more "degrees" if you will at hand

this is why its been mentioned that small wheels downwind in a blow can be a handful, your arms have to be stronger to exert the same force on the rudder...a big wheel eliminates this by becoming much greater than the rudder "wheel" or quadrant or whatever is connected to the rudder stock

thats why in my post Im asking if he means attachment point like quadrant


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> the autopilot does NOT attach to the outer wheel it attaches to the spokes and wheel provided by the autopilot manufacturer the ratio is determined by the autopilot supplied wheels or gears if you will
> 
> now if by autopilot you mean joe blow helmsman than yes this is true...on a bigger wheel you have infinitely more fine tuning since you have more "degrees" if you will at hand
> 
> ...


I don''t think you understand the big wheel. have you ever sailed with a big wheel like 60"? the big wheel will go from center to full hard over in 3/8 of a turn. most smaller wheels will take about a full turn to go full hard over. so in a big sea when you steer you are not only disadvantaged by the small diameter but you also have to turn the wheel through a lot more degrees to keep the boat straight. the big wheel will only need to turned a few degrees to keep it straight. so a wheel pilot will be not working as hard on a big wheel boat, it has to turn through less degrees to keep the boat straight


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

we are saying the same things with the exception of how the autopilot works rehardless of wheel size.

are you reading what Im saying though?

an autopilot DOES NOT ATTACH TO A BIG WHEEL(outer rim) IT ATTACHES TO ITSELF! irregardless of outer wheel size

how fast or how much effort the autopilot requires is determined by the boats INNER wheel and rudder gearing

NOT the wheel steering size itself...thats why when you change driving wheels what changes is the feel physically in your arms you might have to use more arm strength or move more or less because you have changed 1 part of the final drive...

NOT at the rudder or quadrant or internal gearing as that isnt changed

yes I have sailed big wheels not 60 though.

Im saying what you are saying in opposite termimolgy if that makes any sense


a small wheel downwind is a handful not only because its small but also because internally they for the most part require more turns full lock to lock kind of like a car

my last boat had a medium sized wheel however the quadrant was massive with a 3/4 or so turn lock to lock whereas most boats are over 1 turn more than often they are close to 2.

my question to jeff is regarding the autopilot scenario...

cheers


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

svHyLyte said:


> Undoubtedly asked by someone that has never had to helm a big boat at sea in seriously heavy weather/seas for any time.


Correct.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Boats with BIG wheels usually dont have 'wheel pilots'; they usually have below-decks pilots attached to auxiliary tillers attached directly to the rudder stock. The reason: response time of the autopilot.


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

overbored said:


> I don''t think you understand the big wheel. have you ever sailed with a big wheel like 60"? the big wheel will go from center to full hard over in 3/8 of a turn. most smaller wheels will take about a full turn to go full hard over. so in a big sea when you steer you are not only disadvantaged by the small diameter but you also have to turn the wheel through a lot more degrees to keep the boat straight. the big wheel will only need to turned a few degrees to keep it straight. so a wheel pilot will be not working as hard on a big wheel boat, it has to turn through less degrees to keep the boat straight


I think you are using the wrong words here.. A bigger wheel will have the same rotation in degrees hard over as a smaller wheel. The difference can't be expressed in degrees, it has to be distance. A 6' clock requires the same degrees to move a hand from 1 o'clock to 3 as a 1' clock. But the distance the end of the hands travel are much different, the larger hand tip will move let's say 20" while the smaller clock hand will move 8".

So a large wheel will indeed take 3/8 of a turn from center to hard over, just as a smaller wheel would take 3/8 of a turn from center to hard over.

You have more control with a larger wheel because the distance/degrees is much higher ratio, which would mean more precise adjustments. So when you " the big wheel will only need to turned a few degrees to keep it straight." it would be the same as the small wheel, that is unless it is geared different, which I don't think we are talking that with interchangeable wheels, not gears.


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

As to the autopilot, below deck at least, Lewmar came out with a disengaging wheel system. It allows the wheel to be free from the shaft so when a autopilot is in use the autopilot isn't having to move the weight and battle the inertia of the wheel. I thought it was neat. But they only make it for some of their wheels, it's not something you can add to your pedestal or existing wheel. Thought it was neat.


Informative thread, I have a 60" on my boat so I'm with the big wheel crowd. It allows you to sit on a combing that had been molded to a butt(no lie!) while on heel.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

What are wheel so big, Cap'n Ron?

Nobody knows.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

For me the big wheel is part of the glory of sailing that can't be described in words. Sitting on the high side with the side of the wheel in one hand steering by a very sweet touch with up and down movements is just amazing.



BoatyardBoy said:


> As to the autopilot, below deck at least, Lewmar came out with a disengaging wheel system. It allows the wheel to be free from the shaft so when a autopilot is in use the autopilot isn't having to move the weight and battle the inertia of the wheel. I thought it was neat. But they only make it for some of their wheels, it's not something you can add to your pedestal or existing wheel. Thought it was neat.
> 
> Informative thread, I have a 60" on my boat so I'm with the big wheel crowd. It allows you to sit on a combing that had been molded to a butt(no lie!) while on heel.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

Lots of confusion in this thread 
To compare the alternatives one should compare equal boats..

The force needed to steer / control the boat is the design criteria number one.
Mechanical advantage is he preferred way on sailboats because the helms person can feel the boat and result of sail trim better.

All mechanical advantage designs have to consider that you must increase travel to increase he force.

A large wheel give more leverage on the steering wheel shaft than a small wheel.
The larger wheel have more travel along it's edge.

The smaller wheel would need more mechanical advantage in the steering system to get the same force on the rudder, as a result it would need more turns-lock to-lock.

So there are two reasons to for large wheel
- more leverage 
- ability to steer sitting on the side.

If you want to look at all the different ways to design a steering system - visit Jefa Jefa rudder and steering systems


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

knuterikt said:


> So there are two reasons to for large wheel
> - more leverage
> - ability to steer sitting on the side.


Plus one more - finer control, especially important hard on the wind.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

knuterikt said:


> Lots of confusion in this thread
> To compare the alternatives one should compare equal boats..
> 
> The force needed to steer / control the boat is the design criteria number one.
> ...


exactly


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

man I dont know where all the confusion started but what got me ruffled was the autopilot comments

everything being said in this last page and half of the last is completely true

there is no arguing that

if a "wheel pilot" is used attached to a wheel big or small the effect of the size of the STEERING wheel is ZILCH in regards to force needed to move said wheel

there is not difference because the gear of the wheel pilot is attached to the shaft and not the outer wheel which would be incredible cumbersome but strong

it would require for example a motor that turns at a much higher rpm, aka less turns if brushed motor versus low turns which gives more torque.

the big benefit I have noticed on big wheel for me are:

feel
visibility off to the sides
finer helm tuneability

this last one is where people have been confused

this is not talking about internal gearing and how the pedestal is run down or how the wheel shaft is attached to the rudder stock via belts or cables or whatever

a big wheel because its BIGGER will turn more distance on the circumference of said wheel if for example you measure it on the seat coaming or with a ruler...this means that for the HELMSMAN you can tune more WITHIN THAT DISTANCE your rudder...meaning that smaller inputs either way can be made...which on a racer is very important

at the same time by being BIG it allows the helmsman to last longer steering as less strength is required when compared to a small wheel(leverage)

if this doesnt make sense go sail a worm gear(friction) old schooner with a car like steering wheel downwind in 40 knots then do the same on a performance cruiser with a big wheel or dual helms...

one will bog you down less than the other...makin you safer in the end.

thats a given


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I want to address the questions about my earlier statement on autopilots. Generally boats which are designed with large steering wheels depend on having a larger portion of the mechanical advantage come from the leverage of the diameter of the wheel and less of the mechanical advantage coming through gearing or leverage within the system. The net result of the higher internal mechanical advantage require by a smaller wheel is that there generally is more friction in the system. The autopilot uses more energy to overcome that friction and so uses more electrical power to make the same course correction. 

My point about the wheel pilot is that a boat with a larger wheel is generally geared so that the wheel turns through a smaller angle than a boat with a smaller wheel for the same change in rudder angle. The autopilot motor is either full on or full off and so runs longer to rotate the wheel through the larger angle and that longer run time uses more electrical power than the shorter run time on a larger wheel.
Jeff


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

SVAuspicious said:


> Plus one more - finer control, especially important hard on the wind.


*EXACTLY* this is because in layman terms the wheel circumference has more travel when measured...

this can be considered more travel

more travel or range for the same amount of final movement AT THE RUDDER means more adjusteabilty

this can be explained like this:

1-10 in single units means there are 10 positions...in half units 20 in quarter units 40

which offers more positions?

now transfer this to positions on a wheel and you see why bigger wheels are the way to go for racers and big offshore boats racing downwind etc...

this is just the final drive or connection to the helmsman this has NOTHING to do with internal gearing or how its attached to the rudder

like knuterikt said boats must be equal in build and rudder connection to wheel steering for this to make sense...if any part is different then you cant argue wheel size benefits or cons


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

,To touch on Christian's post above, the reality is that steering systems are designed to a specific mechanical advantage based on the anticipated loads and a comfortable steering force on the rim if the wheel. Ignoring friction for a moment, That assumes that there would be an equal mechanical advantage at the rim of the wheel and therefore for any given change in rudder angle there rim of the big wheel and the rim of the smaller wheel would move an equal length with an equal force. It's really the reduced losses due to friction of the high gearing that makes a big wheel less work to steer. 

Jeff


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

To further illustrate these latest comments...

Our current boat (36" wheel) is 1.5 turns lock to lock, and the rudder turns through about 80 degrees.. The larger wheel on our previous boat (60") was one turn lock to lock and turned the rudder through 90 degrees.. the reduced mechanical advantage at the shaft was counteracted by the longer 'arm' (bigger radius) of the 60 inch wheel.

A wheel pilot (which we were never quite able to sort out how to mount) on the larger wheel would have had to work harder since it lost that extra 'leverage' the helmsman had.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

THAT faster was my point regarding steering wheel size and effect on autopilot if mounted at the wheel

it does not MATTER what size the steering wheel is since he pilot mounts using the provided gears if you will

the leverage is determined by shaft connection to the rudder stock

WHATEVER THAT IS IS WHAT IT WILL BE WITH THE AUTOPILOT

now I have seen people mod wheel attachments and modify wheel pilots to compensate for this however this is best left for a new thread.

for example wheel pilot motors are easy to replace and or modify...simply using a motor with more turns or less turns can make the difference on wether a pilot will be able to cope with or not with said wheel system. big or small

however you will modify eletric load on system...some may cope some may overload as most motor systems use an electronic speed control of sorts.

and thats it for me

peace jajaja


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Faster said:


> Our current boat (36" wheel) is 1.5 turns lock to lock, and the rudder turns through about 80 degrees.. The larger wheel on our previous boat (60") was one turn lock to lock and turned the rudder through 90 degrees.. the reduced mechanical advantage at the shaft was counteracted by the longer 'arm' (bigger radius) of the 60 inch wheel.


None of which is cast in stone. My wheel is about 1.2m in diameter. It is 2.5(ish) turns lock to lock for about 100 degrees at the rudder.

Look at some of the race boats with geared inner wheels and you'll see tremendous fine-tuning. Very few of us have something like that. So we have to make compromises between the ability to really fine tune steering and getting the helm over promptly for tacking and for close quarters maneuvering.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

SVAuspicious said:


> None of which is cast in stone......


Of course.. mine was just one example comparison.. imagine living with a steering system like on 'Captain Ron' (no relation, btw ) where you're spinning the helm like a roulette wheel to get the rudder over!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

someone on here mentioned they had like a 4 turn lock to lock...was it med or someone with a motorsailor? 

that freaked me out!

nothing is cast in stone in the used boat market thats for sure...

btw give me a tiller any day of the week...jajaja


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> btw give me a tiller any day of the week...jajaja


Yup... when all is said and done, there's still a lot to be said for a tiller...

Even if you have a wheel... How else is this guy gonna be able to see around that massive plotter/instrument cluster?

)










Steering Control Arm

Even if I had a wheel, for extended cruising I'd still carry a basic tillerpilot as a spare/backup... With so many autopilot failures occurring due to less than robust or improper installations within the lazarette, hooking up a tillerpilot in that fashion in a pinch before a proper repair/rebuild could really come in handy, if only for getting you thru the light stuff, or in flat water where the steering corrections required would be minimal...

About a year ago, I picked up a 40-footer to run from Mystic CT down to the Chesapeake... Less than an hour into the trip, the AP went tits up... The trip turned out to be a motor job the entire way, absolutely flat water for 4 days, and an real PITA to hand steer for the duration... Even the lightest, most basic self-contained Raymarine or Simrad tillerpilot tied into the wheel would have made all the difference in the world...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

someone here a while ago posted their cheap budget friendly way of hooking up a tiller pilot to their wheel

with pics...

once your on your way on a solid tack the amount of travel needed isnt much...

well heres to dreaming...

ps. that raymarine tiller pilot is what we used exclusively on our first cruise back on an old h28...it was very reliable and only overloaded on spirited broad reaches...everything else was awesome. very low power draw too

but thank mostly rudder and hull design for that.

anywhoo


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

By response number 3, the OP's question had been answered, and then, Bla bla bla. But, what the hell .


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Siamese said:


> By response number 3, the OP's question had been answered, and then, Bla bla bla. But, what the hell .


Yeah, but the OP went home to his wife and kids... the rest of us hung around at the bar!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

all'sh hav me anosher rum pleash! hick!


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

It appears that some can't even hold their liquor, let alone a compass course!


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

Two wheels are better than one... just sayin'


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

christian.hess said:


> ....
> 
> btw give me a tiller any day of the week...jajaja


Amen.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

Siamese said:


> By response number 3, the OP's question had been answered, and then, Bla bla bla. But, what the hell .


What? You think anything actually gets resolved when a bunch of sailors (or anyone else, for that matter) sit around and chew the electronic fat?


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)




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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

damn those whiskeys gave me a hangover....

next thread for the bar please

OUT!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

weinie said:


> Two wheels are better than one... just sayin'


ive often dreamt of racing a 2 wheel boats in the southern ocean doing 30 knots while drinking a XX and saying how fantastic I am...now for putzing around?

I dont want to be fixing 1 wheel let alone 2

I get it though, beamy boats in the stern a kind of open space in the middle between the 2 wheels, great looks...

chick magnet I get it

however it wasnt that long ago that most open boats and southern ocean solo sailors even cats big cats where all using TILLERS...

like hobies used...

what year did the 2 wheel scene come to be mainstream?

Im talking solo here not crewed?


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> ive often dreamt of racing a 2 wheel boats in the southern ocean doing 30 knots while drinking a XX and saying how fantastic I am...now for putzing around?
> 
> I dont want to be fixing 1 wheel let alone 2
> 
> ...


Did I mention I have TWO wheels?

2>1, therefore I win (to paraphrase medsailor)
:laugher


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

weinie said:


> Did I mention I have TWO wheels?
> 
> 2>1, therefore I win (to paraphrase medsailor)
> :laugher


oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh snap

do you have a sauna though? med beats us all:laugher


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

my ocean cruising formosa has awesome hydraulic auto pile it. 
medium sized wood wheel complete with hand breakers(spokes) lol
we do not race. 
we sail comfortably with excellent 360 degree vew. from center of transom. dont have to lean out to see around anything, even with dodger,,,,,,wheel is perfect size.

the HUGE wheels placed on modern production boats emulate the racing wheels all the wannabe sailors think are necessary to have to be cool behind the wheel at the dock holding cocktails and bullsh**ing with the other wannabes. 
they look great on the catahuntebenelinas sold these days, and look like hell on older cruising boats.
dock queens and wannabe racing heros LOVE huge wheels....
the rest of us like what we have and dont have pretentions


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

We often use this wheel. It's very small and easy to get around.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

This is not really true. There is, generally, a big difference in the force required for a wheel autopilot to turn the wheel.

For purposes of discussion, let's take two boats, one with a big wheel 60" and one with a small wheel 30".

Assume each has a wheel pilot that is 18" in diameter. Also assume that each wheel requires the helmsman to exert the same amount of force to turn it in any given conditions.

That force is applied at different locations for each wheel. The lever arm of the force of the big wheel is 30". The lever arm of the force of the small wheel is 15". The lever arm of the wheel pilot is 9". The autopilot will see twice the force on the big wheel as the small wheel. It will have an easier time with the small wheel, but must turn more to achieve the same result. With the big wheel, it will feel more force, but only need to turn half as much.



christian.hess said:


> man I dont know where all the confusion started but what got me ruffled was the autopilot comments
> 
> everything being said in this last page and half of the last is completely true
> 
> ...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> what year did the 2 wheel scene come to be mainstream?


I wouldn't try to pinpoint that with any precision... However, I do have a pretty clear recollection of the first time I ever saw a boat with twin wheels...

It was when I was shooting the SORC back in the early 80's. I'm almost certain where I saw them was aboard aboard the boat LOVE MACHINE.. Hmmm, no wonder twin wheels have always been considered "sexy", eh? She was being driven by one of the Rock Stars back in the day - someone like Tom Blackaller, or Tom Whidden - if memory serves...

Seems we're stuck with this latest trend, until someone comes up with something even sexier  Can 3 wheels be too far off, a third tucked up under the dodger, perhaps? Or, will wheels eventually go the way of the dodo bird, and we'll all be steering with joysticks, or touch pads, sometime in the not-to-distant future?

Certainly, they make sense aboard some larger boats today... But the trickle-down to 35-footers seems nothing more than an affectation, to me, making little sense... C'mon, isn't this a bit ridiculous? Well, not if the primary objective of the cockpit is to serve simply as a pathway to the swim platform, of course...










I was really looking forward to seeing the XC-35 this year at Annapolis. But I was a bit disappointed in the boat, largely due to how cluttered the cockpit seemed by the combination of the 2 wheels, and the centerline table... The 'traffic' of people boarding the boat at the show certainly didn't 'flow' very smoothly, never a good sign. Put that boat on a good angle of heel, it could be very awkward for even one person to move about that cockpit, much less a couple of crew...










For a new generation of sailors increasingly reliant upon chartplotters, the twin wheel setup with only i plotter usually places it in a rather inconvenient location, at considerable distance... (Forget about the compass, nobody uses those things any more ) I'm presuming that deck plate is for the emergency tiller. Boy, I'll bet _THAT_ setup is gonna work _REALLY_ well, no? 

I'm trying to imagine how one might couple a windvane to such a dual wheel setup... But that's a moot point, of course, no one will ever even _dream_ of putting a vane on such a boat...

Granted, I'm taller than most, but I've been on larger Hanses where I could not stand comfortably behind one of the wheels, without the split backstay led from the stern quarter hitting my shoulder or head, would have been even more of an issue when the boat was put on a heel, and one was steering from the weather helm station...

Twin wheels on boats much under 40 feet? Seems Dumb & Dumber, to me...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jzk said:


> This is not really true. There is, generally, a big difference in the force required for a wheel autopilot to turn the wheel.
> 
> For purposes of discussion, let's take two boats, one with a big wheel 60" and one with a small wheel 30".
> 
> ...


this is not true

the wheel provided by the windvane or autopilot is the same! it attaches at the same point unless you modify it, it essentially attaches to the shaft...the same distance will be seen from shaft to windvane or autopilot wheel...regardless of overall wheel size...

let me spell this out

in a motorcycle wheel you have a rear sprocket that you can change sizes with...however the wheel and tire stay the same

now reverse this scenario...the sprocket stays the same but wheel and tire can be any size

lift the rear wheel (so its not contacting the ground, in sailor talk this would be the hand of the helmsman)

the amount of force required to move the wheel as a whole with sprocket is virtually unchanged...unless of course you have something physically making contact with the tire or other part of the drivetrain

if you dont beleive go get you bicycle lift the rear off the floor

jack stand it

now put it in a middle gear on the back

use your arm to move one pedal...

notice effort it requires(basically absolutely nothing) now grab your other hand or brake and apply some negative force ot the tire....it slows down

now ask yourself this

is there any sort of brake on a wheel big or small when you are using your autopilot? are you using gears on the outside of the wheel to regenerate? is there a wheel brake applies to outside if the wheel?

the anwer is NO...

for petes sake guys...this isnt rocket science

what changes is how much "wheel" there is outside of the autopilot or windvane provided wheel

if its excessively more or weighted or wood and lead or bronze of course the autopilot will struggle more because its turning a bigger wheel

but since everyone is talking racers here

how many 60 inch wheels weigh more than average joe blow cruiser wheel? especially if they are composite made or carbon or whatever...

these arguments are just non sensical and I mean this in the nicest way...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> I wouldn't try to pinpoint that with any precision... However, I do have a pretty clear recollection of the first time I ever saw a boat with twin wheels...
> 
> It was when I was shooting the SORC back in the early 80's. I'm almost certain where I saw them was aboard aboard the boat LOVE MACHINE.. Hmmm, no wonder twin wheels have always been considered "sexy", eh? She was being driven by one of the Rock Stars back in the day - someone like Tom Blackaller, or Tom Whidden - if memory serves...
> 
> ...


Ill play devils advocate here only because i almost fully agree with you

windvanes on modern boats oh please now I really laughed out loud! its been a while btw

on this last pic Jon, I could see a problem with visibilty and angle if you are seated straight center like on a captains chair aka 1 wheel or tiller

FOR THIS BOAT AT THAT HEELING ANGLE

I can see if one where to eliminate twin wheel and go with 1 that you would have a massive gap of 4-5 feet on each side of the helm...THAT would be awkward more than this setup on this boat...

since the sterns on these boats are so damn open and wide vendee globe wannabe ish...look at how high the windward aft corner is(cheek) its probably a least 4 feet in the air at a mild 15-20 degree heel the *HULL*...the helmsan is another 8-9 feet up(eye)

to those that want to argue visibilty, there is no question that a windward helmsan *in this boat* will have a gazillion more horizon pixels per se, foresail view and windward AND leeward view... compared to say a more conventional 70s, 80s, and 90s cruiser/racer...

I might be wrong but I can see it from my screen at least
obviously measurements are guesstimated


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

This guy looks pretty comfy on this new Jeanneau 349. Note there is no backstay.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I wouldnt mind that boat...

dont get me wrong guys...I love the thought of the cheek seats...they make sense...however the boat has to to

I would guess the absolute smallest boat you can reasonably do this is like the above...40ft or so...I mean on a 30ft...common!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

weinie said:


> This guy looks pretty comfy on this new Jeanneau 349. Note there is no backstay.


I don't know, perhaps not as comfy as the guy below, to my eye...  What's most striking to me about your shot, is the height of that helmsman's position above the water, in comparison to the cockpit on this stodgy old Hinckley...










The placement of the helmsman in a shot like yours, when sailing in a seaway or in dirty weather, is likely to be very fatiguing... Other than being at the bow, or at the top of the mast, the stern quarter on today's broad transom skimming dishes represent the point where the motion of the boat will be most extreme, and felt the most... Also, the cockpit placement most exposed to wind and weather, no dodger is gonna afford much in the way of protection to anyone stuck way out there...

On a cruising boat, there's a lot to be said for the forward helm position favored by many boats of the CCA era... As shown in this pic by TomMaine of FIDELIO - a near-sister to Carleton Mitchell's legendary FINISTERRE... This sort of helm has several advantages, placing the helmsman away from the ends of the boat, where the motion will be greatly reduced. The primary winches are within easy reach, the binnacle makes for an excellent handhold for crew exiting the companionway, and of course excellent protection from the dodger close at hand... One highly underrated aspect to such an arrangement, is the ease with which food and drinks or other gear can be handed up from the galley to the person at the helm. Finally, the helmsman on a boat like FIDELIO could even look at a paper chart in that position - good luck to that guy on the Jeanneau with that... Of course, bringing a paper chart aboard such a boat is probably heretical in this day and age, anyway ) But the helmsman on FIDELIO can keep his iPad within reach under the protection of the dodger, where's the guy on the Jeanneau gonna stash his so that it's protected from the elements?

Next best arrangement to a tiller, IMHO... One of the few downsides to that helm placement on an offshore cruising boat that I can see, is that it makes for a very long run for the control lines in the event a vane might be fitted...


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> I don't know, perhaps not as comfy as this guy, to my eye...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't be so quick to knock that Jeanneau. The german main sheeting and jib sheets are routed to the winches and rope clutches outside each wheel. The winches are perfectly placed so that either the helmsman can trim from behind the wheel or crew can trim from in front of it.

The benefit of of the second wheel here is that a single hander can easily trim the jib on the low side while having a comfortable grip on the wheel without reaching across the cockpit to steer the boat from a wheel mounted amidship.

It's a great layout for a short handed crew making tacking back and forth a breeze.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

as always my friends

as always

differen strokes for different folks

you stay classy san diego

ajajajajajaja


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> I don't know, perhaps not as comfy as the guy below, to my eye...  *What's most striking to me about your shot, is the height of that helmsman's position above the water, in comparison to the cockpit on this stodgy old Hinckley...*


I would love real numbers here

I mean that

what the difference in eye height really is

my numbers were just a guess

I bet the hinckley here is around or 4 ft lower than the white boat weine posted

again

guesstimate


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

weinie said:


> Don't be so quick to knock that Jeanneau. The german main sheeting and jib sheets are routed to the winches and rope clutches outside each wheel. The winches are perfectly placed so that either the helmsman can trim from behind the wheel or crew can trim from in front of it.
> 
> The benefit of of the second wheel here is that a single hander can easily trim the jib on the low side while having a comfortable grip on the wheel without reaching across the cockpit to steer the boat from a wheel mounted amidship.
> 
> It's a great layout for a short handed crew making tacking back and forth a breeze.


I have no doubt it's a very nice boat for certain types of sailing... I'm simply pointing out how the placement of the helmsman in such an extreme position could be very tiring offshore for prolonged periods, in certain conditions...










Having said that, the sheeting arrangements on that boat appear to me to have more than a couple of disadvantages...

Perhaps it's just me, but I think sheets should always be led to winches, NEVER to rope clutches...

The variance with which the sheets run aft above the coachroof from the jib sheet barber-hauler arrangement would seem to prevent a watertight dodger from being fitted...

That sort of 'double dip' the sheets take thru what appear to be simple fairleads from the cabin top down to the coaming have to add a significant amount of friction to the system - especially to a mainsheet already seeing excessively high loads as a result of being sheeted from mid-boom...

Lines running like that along the top of cockpit coamings is a VERY poor and potentially dangerous arrangement, IMHO... Perhaps even worse than varnished cockpit coamings that are likely to be stepped upon... )


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> I have no doubt it's a very nice boat for certain types of sailing... I'm simply pointing out how the placement of the helmsman in such an extreme position could be very tiring offshore for prolonged periods, in certain conditions...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll give you the full review when I take delivery in the spring.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

am I seing that right? the lines go down the coaming from the cabintop????

wtf?????????????


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

weinie said:


> You don't need to use the clutches. You can run the jib sheet to the winch on leeward and the main sheet on the windward side. Of course when you change tacks you will need to switch it and that's when the clutches would be used.


Yes, but the sheets are still led thru clutches. The one type of line aboard that must be allowed to run freely if need be are sheets. Lines don't always run freely thru rope clutches, particularly lines that are repeatedly wound on winches in close proximity to the clutch.... No need to ask me how I know this...

)



weinie said:


> Which is fine as they designed this boat for minimal crew by leading the lines to the helm stations.


I think you may be underestimating the potential for disaster, when lines that will roll underfoot are led along the top of a surface like a cockpit coaming...



weinie said:


> I'll give you the full review when I take delivery in the spring.


Congrats, and good luck with her... Although such boats are not really my style, I'm still pretty sure I would be far happier with that boat, than you might be with one like mine...

)


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Hay'sh, whil'sh yoush all talken abet whelsh shtill? thoush wesh wa sh inso drinken rumsh!

I'sh taken nusher drinksh pleesh!


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

You are making one very big erroneous assumption. You are assuming that everything is the same on a boat with a small wheel and a large wheel. It is not. Of course, if you just added a large wheel to a boat with a small wheel, the autopilot wouldn't know the difference.

But a boat with a small wheel will be able to turn more wheel revolutions from lock to lock than a boat with a large wheel. Otherwise, what is the point of the large wheel?



christian.hess said:


> this is not true
> 
> the wheel provided by the windvane or autopilot is the same! it attaches at the same point unless you modify it, it essentially attaches to the shaft...the same distance will be seen from shaft to windvane or autopilot wheel...regardless of overall wheel size...
> 
> ...


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Well then, the helmsman can always steer from the low side to avoid the spray and weather.

Our main sheet runs through clutches on both sides of the cabin top. I never thought of it as an issue. Our purchase is 4 to 1 at the end of the boom. But, I would not want the jib sheets run through clutches as it would seem like another thing to jam and screw up a tack.

We have one big wheel which is just sweet for fingertip sailing either from the high side or the low side. However, I can see the convenience of two wheels. Maybe even two larger wheels?



JonEisberg said:


> I have no doubt it's a very nice boat for certain types of sailing... I'm simply pointing out how the placement of the helmsman in such an extreme position could be very tiring offshore for prolonged periods, in certain conditions...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

jzk said:


> But a boat with a small wheel will be able to turn more wheel revolutions from lock to lock than a boat with a large wheel. Otherwise, what is the point of the large wheel?


Nope! The number of revolutions would be the same unless you changed the gear ratio. The only thing that changes with a larger wheel V/S the smaller wheel is the amount of torque required to turn the wheel - everything else would be the same.

Gary


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

That would be true if you took a boat with a small wheel and simply added a large wheel.

But it is just not true that a boat designed with a small wheel is going to have the same gear ratio as a boat designed with a large wheel.

That would mean that the small wheel would be very difficult to turn, and the large wheel would turn too easily. The gear ratio is going to generally match the wheel.



travlineasy said:


> Nope! The number of revolutions would be the same unless you changed the gear ratio. The only thing that changes with a larger wheel V/S the smaller wheel is the amount of torque required to turn the wheel - everything else would be the same.
> 
> Gary


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

To paraphrase Gloria Swanson in the movie Sunset Boulevard: “It’s not that the wheels have gotten bigger, it’s the helmsmen who have gotten smaller”.  

The Aerodyne 38 that I used to race on had a 72” wheel with two revolutions lock to lock, same as my lowly Catalina. The big difference was there was about double the amount of travel along the rim of the bigger wheel for a given amount of rudder change. This allowed for a lot more fine tuning and adjusting of rudder angle which was import as the Aerodyne had an extremely high aspect rudder. That rudder was prone to stalling out at a moment’s notice and I swear, after a while, you could feel the rudder wanting to stall and correct it before things started to go sideways. Going from the big wheel to a tiller on the Cal, I find that I have to work harder at fine tuning the rudder.


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

Jon,
just to follow up about sheets leading to clutches instead of directly to a winch...

The jib sheet will almost always have the clutch open and feed directly to the winch on the low side while one sits on the high side and works the main on sheet on the winch. 

It's only if you are steering from the low side that you may need to take a jib sheet off the winch to play the mainsheet. (There is no traveler of course, so I know that will be another bone to pick, though this type of bridal system does get the boom right to the centerline.)

If you are about to tack, you will obviously need to lock the main sheet in the clutch to free up the winch for the new jib sheet. But since it is german sheeting, one of the two main sheets will always need to be locked off anyway.

Yes the sheets over the coaming may be hazardous, but theoretically, all the important controls (except the vang) are led directly, not just aft, but right to the helm. For a singlehander this is great. For someone who sails with a wife or kids who don't help out pulling the strings its even better not to have to step over them to trim the sails.


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## drosymor (Aug 6, 2014)

As a cruiser, I can't see the utility of 2 wheels. One wheel takes up enough space as it is. That stodgy old Hinckley sure is a thing of beauty and looks a whole lot more comfortable that the Vendee type boats.


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

drosymor said:


> As a cruiser, I can't see the utility of 2 wheels. One wheel takes up enough space as it is. That stodgy old Hinckley sure is a thing of beauty and looks a whole lot more comfortable that the Vendee type boats.


Well, my supermodel girlfriends like it when they can strut right out from the cabin in their teeny tiny thongs and walk right onto the swim platform without bumping into a steering pedestal.


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## drosymor (Aug 6, 2014)

Ah, now I see the problem. At my age girlfriends are a pipe dream let alone super models. The latter would have fatal results and I still want to spend at least a few years sailing. As for pipe dreams, maybe I need to move to Colorado instead.


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## Golfdad91 (Jan 30, 2014)

Because it looks so cool.


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## jfdubu (Jul 18, 2002)

Ok, so I'm coming late to the party but I'll still give my 2 cents. Regarding wheel size vs autopilot. These are only loosely related. 
Steering effort all comes down to torque at the rudder stock and that's regardless of tiller or wheel.
Staying with a wheel system, for a given rudder angle change there is a wheel shaft angle change. lets call that the geared in reduction (note so far nothing to do with wheel size). The effort or energy required to turn that rudder is a function of the sailing conditions and rudder design. Lets make that a constant. For this boat, increasing the size of the wheel will give the helm better feel and require less effort to steer. A smaller wheel, just the opposite. Note both wheels extend the same amount of energy at the wheel shaft. (displacement vs power). I think both Hess and Knut are trying to state this just in a different ways. This is pretty basic engineering and shouldn't subject to debate.
Now attach the autopilot. Starting with a wheel pilot, these have fixed diameters and normally a fixed internal gear in. Doesn't matter. It takes the same amount of energy to move the rudder. The autopilot motor runs shorter at high torque or longer at low torque. Again this is regardless of wheel diameter same amount of energy. I believe the point Fast is making has to do with efficiency. Generally the more mechanical advantage in a system (as needed with a small wheel) the more energy looses due to inefficiency hence the harder an autopilot has to work. While this is true we can for the most part ignore these losses as insignificant. Hess and Knut's point, indirectly. 
If you happen to have a hydraulic ram system on the quadrant, different story all together.

So, does this muddy the water or clear the clouds.

John


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

weinie said:


> Jon,
> just to follow up about sheets leading to clutches instead of directly to a winch...
> 
> The jib sheet will almost always have the clutch open and feed directly to the winch on the low side while one sits on the high side and works the main on sheet on the winch.
> ...


First off, I've never been aboard this boat, so I'm only going by the photos I see... I'm sure the setup works for the sort of sailing most folks will be doing most of the time, but I still see a number of drawbacks for the sort of sailing I often wind up doing...










The position of the wheel relative to those winches would seem to present an ergonomic challenge in certain situations to their most efficient use... I find it's rarely a good idea to have any sort of 'obstacle' between you and the winch you're using  Having to reach over or around those wheels, or having to tail outboard of the wheels, would seem to be rather awkward at times, to say the least... Sometimes - when furling a headsail, for instance - you just want to be able to take a wrap or two on a winch, and simply haul on it with your entire body. The positioning of those wheels would seem to make that quite difficult, especially on the leeward side when the boat is on a deep angle of heel...

Again, it's the Old School in me, but I think sheets should always be ready to run free... Having jib and main sheets run thru a bank of rope clutches, directly adjacent to 5 other line tails run thru the same bank, is counter to that notion... What becomes of that half-dozen line tails beyond each bank of clutches, anyway? I can easily envision them being draped over the chartplotter, and winding up in a pile at the helmsman's feet... ) Sorry, but I don't like the practice of running numerous lines to a single winch via a large bank of rope clutches, at all... It typically creates a mess when it's done on the cabintop with halyards and reefing lines, seems there's an equal or greater potential for doing so in the cockpit, with sheets and other control lines...

Also, perhaps it's just me, but I find having only 2 winches in the cockpit to be extremely limiting. And, there seems to be no way to add a set of secondary winches to that boat. When you start flying spinnakers, or using a downwind pole, running preventers, and so on, you can never have too many winches at your disposal  Furthermore, with that configuration, for any crew situated in the cockpit forward of the helm, for them to trim any of those assorted lines led back thru those clutches, the winch will have to be employed, as they won't have the proper angle so simply grab on a particular line, and pull it thru the clutch...

Again, I don't want to come off as dissing this boat, I'm sure it will work wonderfully for you... I just see some of these modern solutions as not necessarily being that much of an improvement over some more traditional ways of doing things, is all...

But again, that's probably just me...

)


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> First off, I've never been aboard this boat, so I'm only going by the photos I see... I'm sure the setup works for the sort of sailing most folks will be doing most of the time, but I still see a number of drawbacks for the sort of sailing I often wind up doing...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


see comments above


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

If your tacking single handed on a boat like this, I believe it's easiest to stand just in front of the wheels, so some of Jon concerns may not apply, ie no bracing for pulling and reaching over the wheel.


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

Ninefingers said:


> If your tacking single handed on a boat like this, I believe it's easiest to stand just in front of the wheels, so some of Jon concerns may not apply, ie no bracing for pulling and reaching over the wheel.


You could, unless you have a full complement of non-crewing family or the crew you do have is busy talking to their offices on their cell phones. Now you don't have to ask them to move out of the way!

ETA:
Is it an optimal setup for racing with a full crew or trade wind sailing? Probably not. But as all boats, compromises are made in all aspects of design. 
But supposedly its quite a fast boat and handles well with just the right amount of weather helm the hard chines give it a nice, stable heeling angle at speed.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

weinie said:


> You could, unless you have a full complement of non-crewing family or the crew you do have is busy talking to their offices on their cell phones.


Exactly!

I may be taking delivery of Oceanis 35 in the spring. We can get made fun of equally  Yachting Monthly loves your 349.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

weinie said:


> I agree with the importance of good positioning when hauling in the jib sheets._ However, on any other non-tiller boat, that would involve moving forward of the wheel and either using the AP or trying to balance the wheel with one hand while pulling the string with the other. The innovation here is that you don't HAVE to leave the wheel to haul in sheet.[/b] So if you're tacking back and forth by yourself in Long Island sound all day long it makes a lot of sense. Using a smaller headsail with a fractional rig also makes it easier to pull it in.
> _


_

I suppose that's part of my larger point, that on boats of this size, a tiller is a more sensible setup if the ease of sailing shorthanded is the goal... But of course nobody wants a tiller, anymore...

However, some boats with larger wheels still get this pretty right. I've always thought the J-40 was a good example, where the helmsman had decent access to the primaries:










The J-124 looks even better...












weinie said:



It's an innovative system, so time will tell if it holds up to scrutiny. My real only complaint is that it uses frictionless rings rather than more normal jib cars and tracks. You can move the jib sheets inboard or out but you cant adjust them foward or aft. The downside is that you cannot use a larger jib or move the cars forward if it is reefed. *On the plus side, because there is no back stay, you can use a larger square top mainsail to make up for a smaller jib.*

Click to expand...

I see where the spreaders on that boat are swept to 30 DEGREES...

Hmmm, I see a LOT of jibing in your future...

)



weinie said:



Well, my supermodel girlfriends like it when they can strut right out from the cabin in their teeny tiny thongs and walk right onto the swim platform without bumping into a steering pedestal.

Click to expand...

Well, nice to hear that at least SOMEONE out there might put their boat to the sort of use depicted in the sales brochures, and ads in the glossy magazines... )

The use that boats see in the charter industry is almost completely defining the sort of boats being produced today... It would be interesting to survey how many of today's production boats actually wind up ever being put to such use, making it to the Bahamas or Caribbean, and so on... I'm guessing 1 in 10, at the most?

Truth in advertising is always a tough sell... Put this boat in the muddy waters of the Chesapeake, with a sea nettle barrier surrounding the swim platform, that whole scene definitely loses a bit of its appeal...

)








_


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

JonEisberg said:


> I suppose that's part of my larger point, that on boats of this size, a tiller is a more sensible setup if the ease of sailing shorthanded is the goal... But of course nobody wants a tiller, anymore...
> 
> However, some boats with larger wheels still get this pretty right. I've always thought the J-40 was a good example, where the helmsman had decent access to the primaries:
> 
> ...


Yes, I really like what Jboats has done with these cockpits.. flat, good seating area for helmsperson, coamings and backrests for lounging and in-cockpit passengers, the ability to straddle the wheel when steering to weather (not apparent on newer twin wheel cockpit arrangements). They even can mount instrument repeaters in the back of the coamings so no one in the cockpit is likely to block the views. (my pet peeve with cabin-back mounted instruments, and even to some extent top-of-companionway nacelles)


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

Here's mine, I think it was executed pretty well.. You can't see the combings where your butt sits but it's in between the wood sections behind that hatch that is lifted in the foreground. It's got a butt impression molded into them. But it can be a bit tight going around it I guess.. 

- Ronnie...on the geaux


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> I suppose that's part of my larger point, that on boats of this size, a tiller is a more sensible setup if the ease of sailing shorthanded is the goal... But of course nobody wants a tiller, anymore...
> 
> However, some boats with larger wheels still get this pretty right. I've always thought the J-40 was a good example, where the helmsman had decent access to the primaries:
> 
> ...


Jon,
I was wondering when you were going to jump on the no-backstay rig design!

I like those Js very much, but they are too much boat for me. I was actually looking for a J35 in good condition, but they are rare.
Frankly after spending 5 years fixing up and replacing every system on an old catalina, I wanted to buy new. Unfortunately, I had a hard time finding a new "performance" cruiser in the 35 foot range with end boom sheeting for under 200k.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

SailRedemption said:


> Here's mine, I think it was executed pretty well.. You can't see the combings where your butt sits but it's in between the wood sections behind that hatch that is lifted in the foreground. It's got a butt impression molded into them. But it can be a bit tight going around it I guess..
> 
> - Ronnie...on the geaux


nice new name bud!

damn thats a big wheel:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher

and congrats on the boat once again its a beauty


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> nice new name bud!
> 
> damn thats a big wheel:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher
> 
> and congrats on the boat once again its a beauty


Yea, haha, the family retired and sold the marina plus my boat has a name now, thought it was more appropriate!

That's what she said? Haha! I think it will do, hopefully getting a new pedestal in Miami in Feb, there's nothing now, so I'll have to use the emergency tiller till then!

- Ronnie...on the geaux


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> someone on here mentioned they had like a 4 turn lock to lock...was it med or someone with a motorsailor?
> 
> that freaked me out!
> 
> ...


Good memory.  Yes, it was me, but I also found the adjustment valve, right under the hub of the wheel (within easy reach) which changes how many turns it takes to move the rudder. This adjustment was just slacked off all the way.

BTW the nut on the hub of the wheel was loose and the wheel nearly came off in my hands on my trial sail. No big deal, because nauticats have a second steering wheel below. Backups for everything!  On the other hand, the wheel falling off in your hand during the trial sail may have been some kind of warning sign... 

MedSailor


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> On the other hand, the wheel falling off in your hand during the trial sail may have been some kind of warning sign...
> 
> MedSailor


"If anything is going to happen boss, it's going to happen out there." - Capt Ron

- Ronnie...on the geaux


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

MedSailor said:


> Good memory.  Yes, it was me, but I also found the adjustment valve, right under the hub of the wheel (within easy reach) which changes how many turns it takes to move the rudder. This adjustment was just slacked off all the way.
> 
> BTW the nut on the hub of the wheel was loose and the wheel nearly came off in my hands on my trial sail. No big deal, because nauticats have a second steering wheel below. Backups for everything!  On the other hand, the wheel falling off in your hand during the trial sail may have been some kind of warning sign...
> 
> MedSailor


if the wheel falls off in your hand shes a keeper! ajajaja


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> if the wheel falls off in your hand shes a keeper! ajajaja


Maybe that was it. Perhaps she was saying, "Take me home with you!" 

MedSailor


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I'm trying to figure out how to put a sugar scoop and monster wheel on my old Morgan. The main reason is that every time I see an advertisement for one of these boats, some hot looking honey is always either at the helm or perched on the sugar scoop in a bikini that resembles two Band Aids and a cork. I assume they must come with the wheel or the sugar scoop. 

Cheers,

Gary


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

wasnt there a thread where some of us got trashed for comments like that...

you know a beneteau 50 is great for what its intended for

local cruising and transom hunnies at ibiza? and not southern ocean racing?

be careful gary...or youll get the wrath! ajajaja


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Christian, I've been married to the same woman for 52 years, I know all about wrath. 

Gary


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

travlineasy said:


> christian, i've been married to the same woman for 52 years, i know all about wrath.
> 
> gary


ziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing!


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## single2coil (Apr 12, 2014)

How can this thread continue? Lame


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

travlineasy said:


> I'm trying to figure out how to put a sugar scoop and monster wheel on my old Morgan. The main reason is that every time I see an advertisement for one of these boats, some hot looking honey is always either at the helm or perched on the sugar scoop in a bikini that resembles two Band Aids and a cork. I assume they must come with the wheel or the sugar scoop.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Hey I have seen your shots from the trip to FL, you have no problem getting babes behind your wheel!


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)




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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Gary, you've got it backwards.

First you buy the boat babe.
THEN the sugar scoop and big wheel magically happen.

If you pay the extra subscription price for an "adult edition" to any of the major sailing magazines, you'll find each babe in the ad photos has a catalogue number. Just order by number and you'll be fine.

You think they'd show anything in an ad that couldn't be SOLD?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Which came first, the babe or the boat?


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

single2coil said:


> How can this thread continue? Lame


To oppose people like you.

I guess with that attitude you are compensating for something... Probably a small wheel. /:

It's OK, it's small but kinda cute!

- Ronnie...on the geaux


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh snappppppppppppppppp!

I havent measured my wheel yet however as most things in my life its kinda in "the middle"

just a guess tho! ajajajajajajaja

man people these days, extreme either way...some fun and jokes are only ok sometimes and your lame for no other reason than just chatting

btw Im sorry I got so heated about autopilots and how they connect to wheels BIG OR SMALL

honestly I should be less extreme too and just have a beer and come on these threads(dont think Im the only one who does that here huh?)

peace to all

christmas is almost here

christian


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

Exactly. Is that not what we're here for, to chat and shoot the bull? Clearly, the original question has been answered to some length, now all that's left to do is to chew on the proverbial fat. 



- Ronnie...on the geaux


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> Gary, you've got it backwards.
> 
> First you buy the boat babe.
> THEN the sugar scoop and big wheel magically happen.


Well that is how it happens on a tiller boat, why is the tiller so big? :laugher (suppose I should start a new thread but in off topic)


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Paul-
Quick, move us to the Sea Chanties & Lymerics section.

I don't know how to tell you this, but to borrow a line from an old Cold War joke about medals:

"Boy, in Texas we call _that _a _small_."

I think even the tiller zealots will concede that after 48 hours in heavy wx, wheels start to sound more attractive.

Clever how the wheel sales cartel has managed to place them on all the big race boats though, isn't it? Almost convinces you there's some reason to have one.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

My stick is bigger than your stick!.............

There were for a bit, a bunch of the more recent TP52's that had tillers vs wheel combo's of the double or single sort. 

Probably depends upon the how you are using the boat etc as to which at the end of the day may be easier etc. I like my tiller on my 28'LOD boat. The wheel option takes out a LOT of cockpit space. Especially at anchor or dock, I can lift the tiller up to the back stay, and binnacle and wheel are not there blocking 2 peoples worth of seating.

Marty


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

I agree with and do the same blt2. I believe the big wheel thing is just a *****envy thing. "My Schwartz is bigger. than yers" LOL
j/k


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> Paul-
> 
> I think even the tiller zealots will concede that after 48 hours in heavy wx, wheels start to sound more attractive.
> 
> Clever how the wheel sales cartel has managed to place them on all the big race boats though, isn't it? Almost convinces you there's some reason to have one.


As usual, _It Depends..._ 

Certainly, on most larger boats, wheels are the way to go... But on a smaller boat like mine, I honestly cannot think of a single reason why converting to a wheel would be an advantage, there appears to be nothing but downsides...

And, the heavy weather argument is lost, on me... on a boat that is reasonably well balanced, there should be no reason the increase in effort required to manage the helm should disproportionately favor a wheel over a tiller... In addition, every larger boat I've ever sailed requires one to _STAND_ continuously at the helm to manage it in bigger winds and seas, whereas a tiller can always be managed from a far less fatiguing position of _sitting... _ And, one of the biggest advantages of many tiller steered boats in snotty weather, is that it allows the helmsman to gain significant protection from the elements by huddling up under/behind the dodger, as opposed to being stuck in a far more exposed position further aft at a wheel, or wheels...

Hmmm, almost convinces you there's some reason to have one... 

Finally, if I had a wheel, where would I stow my fenders?


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> As usual, _It Depends..._
> 
> Certainly, on most larger boats, wheels are the way to go... But on a smaller boat like mine, I honestly cannot think of a single reason why converting to a wheel would be an advantage, there appears to be nothing but downsides...
> 
> ...


Definitely depends... I enjoyed the tiller on my spirit 23,and the tartan 10 I race on. But I think I'll enjoy my wheel too. It's all what you get used to.. Home is where you make it

I don't even see a tiller in that picture!? Haha!

- Ronnie...on the geaux


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SailRedemption said:


> I don't even see a tiller in that picture!? Haha!


It's there... It's just really, _really_ short, little more than a stub... 

My tiller is basically cut in half, I can easily detach the forward portion whenever I'd like to free up the cockpit space a bit more... I often do that if I'm in open water and know I'll be running extended stints under either autopilot, or the vane, as the attachment point for each is within 18 inches of the rudderpost. If you're not gonna be hand steering, the length of the tiller becomes superfluous, and it's nice to be able to remove it at anchor or a dock, as well. Not much risk in doing so, as it can be slipped back on in a matter of seconds...


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

My Irwin 38 had a real tiller that we could attach for racing. Not an emergency tiller, but a real tiller. It was really nice to have because I could sit on the high side (tiller extension) much more forward than I normally would have been. It made a difference to keep the weight out of the ends.



JonEisberg said:


> As usual, _It Depends..._
> 
> Certainly, on most larger boats, wheels are the way to go... But on a smaller boat like mine, I honestly cannot think of a single reason why converting to a wheel would be an advantage, there appears to be nothing but downsides...
> 
> ...


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

*Why are tillers so big?*

Why is this tiller so big?

When sailing they use block and tackle attached to the eyes on the tiller to help control the rudder.



















More about Boy Leslie here * Boy Leslie *


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

*Re: Why are tillers so big?*



knuterikt said:


> Why is this tiller so big?
> 
> When sailing they use block and tackle attached to the eyes on the tiller to help control the rudder.
> 
> ...


Looks like a big boat..

Regards to the eyes, I saw one tall ship with a huge tiller that would be tackled to a helm.. The helm drum would turn and pull the line to move the tiller each way. Was there a helm on this boat you took a picture of? If not, it was probably just a means to put the tiller on a "auto pilot" so to speak. Only thing I can think of...

- Ronnie...on the geaux


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

*Re: Why are tillers so big?*



SailRedemption said:


> Looks like a big boat..
> 
> Regards to the eyes, I saw one tall ship with a huge tiller that would be tackled to a helm.. The helm drum would turn and pull the line to move the tiller each way. Was there a helm on this boat you took a picture of? If not, it was probably just a means to put the tiller on a "auto pilot" so to speak. Only thing I can think of...
> 
> - Ronnie...on the geaux


No wheel on this boat.

You can follow the boat here https://www.facebook.com/BoyLeslie

Picture from the re launch after restoration. 









Video of similar boats


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## __floater__ (Nov 14, 2014)

Because they look cool.


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## __floater__ (Nov 14, 2014)

tomaz_423 said:


> I agree about widward sitting and better visibility, but I do not agree about leverage. *One can achieve same leverage with either a larger wheel or larger gear ratio to steering quadrant*.


While this is true, the results would be similar to riding a bicycle in first gear all the time. There is a happy medium between wheel diameter and gearing.
The larger diameter wheel increases mechanical advantage in the same way a long tiller does. Imagine a 12" tiller as opposed to a 36" tiller. Big difference.
And it also extends the grip on the wheel further towards the rail.
If you geared your way to a mechanical advantage and kept the wheel diameter small your visibility would suffer.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

On a properly designed boat, especially one intended to sail well to windward, the helm can be reached, as had been said above, by a person seated comfortably near the rail. As for ratio, that is selected for both force and such that the person does not need to move their hand about the wheel to control the boat. On any boat designed by a competent designer in the last 50 years the helm should be balanced and light at any speed.


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

For Sale: 24" Edson wheel, for a 1" keyed shaft.
For those days when you need more space in the cockpit for entertaining.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I've had this argument with my sailing instructor many times. He feels that the wheel is large so he can be in control while sitting on either side of the cockpit. I told him that from my research, the larger wheels were intended for providing torque sufficient to move a large rudder. On my Morgan 33 OI, the wheel is relatively small, yet the rudder is large. Gearing takes care of all the torque issue and I don't have to clamor over the seats to reach the front of the cockpit from behind the helm. Hell, the world's largest sailboat is steered hydraulically with a joy stick that's 3 inches tall. As one posted put it, it looks neat!

Gary


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

"Big wheel keep on turnin' "


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

"Proud Mary keep on burnin" 

Gary


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

wait...
are we doing the ike and tina version or the CCR version?


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

CCR - I'm too old and too fat to do Tina.  In reality, I perform this song a lot, nearly every time I go on stage, which is 5 to 8 times a week. Audiences of all ages still love that song. Same holds true for Johnny Be Goode.

Cheers,

Gary


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

Damn gary, I already had Tina's voice in my head!


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