# Mid boom vs end boom sheeting



## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Base on the sail shape and sail efficiency, Which one is better? I would think that end boom sheeting is better, because we can have a finer control over the traveler. Not sure if my thinking is right?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

From the simple extent you are talking, yes, end boom is better. It also take less energy if that is the right word to change the boom setting. 

I am assuming you are dealing with lines and sheave. It may be a 4-1 end vs needing a 6-1 if mid boom to easily move the boom. 

I am not familiar with the German system. but it seems to be a pseudo mid boom, with the main sheet line fed back to the helm area and winches, to make it easier to operate.

If cruising, folks seem to like the cabin top, but I personally do not like it, because in shifty/gusty winds, and you are SH'ing the boat, it is hard to adjust the boom in gusts etc. Where as an end boom, is near the helm, so one can sail and adjust at the same time. 

Marty


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

Its like BLT said.

End boom requires less purchase, but often is in the cockpit. The location and length of the traveller is also important. Many 'Bendy types' (Bene's, etc) have light, high aspect (in mast) mains and so have lightish gear for the mid boom sheeting. All aimed at keeping a big entertainment area clear in the cockpit. 

Mid Boom traveller and thus the sheeting requires greater purchase and lines back to the cockpit. (Each block/guide will increase resistance as well as the chance for a 'kinked' sheet to jam - in which case you would have to leave the cockpit to clear it)

What I am trying to say is to seriously look at it, if you wish to change the sheeting position.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Thanks Mates. Just make sure I take all this in. The end boom sheeting only have the mechanical advantage. As far as sail shape is concerned, both is the same???


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I'd say sail shape control will not significantly differ with varying mainsheet setups, but the purchase required for the same degree of control will vary. An end-of-boom system has the best inherent mechanical advantage. The stiffness of the boom section probably plays a role too.

Hand-in-hand with the reduced power of same-tackle midboom sheeting come some other issues.. in most cases mid boom sheeting is led forward and then aft to the cabintop. This is often an awkward location, both from a convenience/reach perspective and from the fact that now you're often working within the confines of a dodger. This also impedes your visibility and sightlines for trimming.

The so-called German sheeting gets around this by bringing the sheet back down the decks to the coamings near the helmsman (often double-ended for access from either side) This allows reduced purchase requirements and improved speed assuming you'll be leading the ends to a convenient 2-speed winch.

The other aspect of mid vs end boom is the strength of the whole setup.. mid boom sheeting is more prone to (admittedly rare) boom failure, esp on a hard, unexpected jibe. The further forward the attachment the weaker the whole thing may be.. this is esp true if the modification has been made (perhaps to accomodate a dodger) without the required reinforcement of the boom at the attachment point. 

One other comment.. the power of the mainsheet is most important close hauled.. after that (as the sheet is eased) the improved speed of a low power tackle is handier, except when jibing in a serious breeze due to the difficulty of handling the sudden change in forces. Once the sheet is eased, then the vang is as important as anything else for setting leech tension and controlling sail shape. IMO a good, powerful and easy-to-adjust vang is a critical sail trim and safety item.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

blt2ski said:


> ...
> I am not familiar with the German system. but it seems to be a pseudo mid boom, with the main sheet line fed back to the helm area and winches, to make it easier to operate.
> 
> ...
> Marty


Hey Marty,

Most of the European cruiser racers bigger than 34ft are coming now with German sheeting system as standard (and with end boom sheating). The lines go along the boom to the front and then back to the winches.

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Paulo,

Thanks for the better description if you will. I know it is different, you can order on a lot of the bigger as you say, 34'ish foot European built boats. Frankly it looks interesting, maybe easier to operate than a purchase system. 

I am sure, just like mid vs end boom sheeting, the German system has some plus and minus's to it too. With it being the end user needing to decide which +- is for them.

Marty


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Marty,

In my opinion in what concerns a end boom sheeting, German sheeting is better on a 40 ft(or bigger) if you have a racing crew. The cockpit is big enough and the control of the boom (on the winches) is not too near the wheel. More space for moving around and more easy control. But if you are a solo sailor you will want the boom control right near the wheel (where you can reach it) and in this case you will not want German sheeting.

I think that they don't use German sheeting on 34ft and smaller cruiser racers because the cockpit space is not big enough to have effective maneuveur space for genoa control and boom control on the side winches (I mean two guys working at the same time on each side away from the wheel).

If you have a mid boom sheeting and if you are a solo sailor you should want German sheeting, especially if you can have 2 winches on each side because you can bring the boom control to a winch nearer you (using the other for the genoa), instead of using the ones on the top of the cabin.

Regards

Paulo


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Gentlemen, I am confused. How does the German system move the traveler?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

It doesn't.... It's just another way to run the MAINSHEET. With mid boom sheeting's normal shortfalls (low purchase, sheet winch on cabintop) this system, if led to an area close to the helmsman (eg seldom used secondary winches) it deals with those shortcomings. Obviously it can be rigged regardless of whether the sheet attachment point is mid boom or end boom.

The choice (at the design stage) of mid or end boom attachment is usually driven by companionway access, cockpit comfort and obstruction, or dodger accommodation.. and it necessarily dictates traveler location as well (and vice-versa)

If by "move the traveler" you mean adjustment, that is, of course, a whole other set of tackle.

I'd also like to qualify all this by saying that by midboom sheeting I'm mostly referring to cabintop travelers forward of the dodger/companionway.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Faster said:


> If by "move the traveler" you mean adjustment, that is, of course, a whole other set of tackle.


Faster: 
Thanks for taking time to reply of this one and the one before. 
I meant moving the traveler to port and starboard. The pic I post above does not show the tackle/block, but it is there, right.

OK, I will check it out next week at the Boat Show.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Faster,

I too am assuming the traveler is ON the cabin top vs in the cockpit somewhere! i can think of at least three places it could go, transome about a thru transome tiller handle or equal up from the floor, in front of a wheel. or like mine, just behind the cabin back wall going across the cockpit. I am sure there is maybe a 4th or 5th place if you will, that will allow endboom from the cockpit, but most would be variations on the just mentioned 3 places IMHO.

Thank you for the better description Paulo. I think in the end, for me, an end boom with a cockpit traveler, so I or whom ever can reach for a steer position, yet just enough away a crew an operate when racing, along with a micro, ie on my boat, main mainsheet is 4-1, with a 4-1 micro for 16-1 when it is howling, or need a better finite adjustment. At times I wish I was was 6-1 with th 4-1 micro for 24-1. 6-1 for better pull in after higher gust let off of the sheets, but the 4-1 does come back in quicker....but harder and more tiring for the main sheet crew.

Again for rockDAWG, not sure there is a true "BEST" setup, all have plus and minus's as noted. You would need to choose which is best for your application and useage.

Marty


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

rock,

yes you are correct, the traveler in I believe any of the above systems, needs another set of block and tack. The main sheet is another block and tackle set. 

Just as some of us have setup a block and tackle to adjust the jib car's on the side decks vs going forward and unpinning the car moving for or aft......

Marty


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Marty, thanks for clearing up my head.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

rockDAWG said:


> Gentlemen, I am confused. How does the German system move the traveler?


For taking full advantage of the friendliness of use of the German sheeting almost all new cruiser boats come without traveler (only cruiser racers use it). They use instead a system that works has an automatic traveler ajuster.

It has not the versatility of a traveler, but if you are not a racer and are not one of those cruisers that like to take all decimals of a knot from your boat, this system will work just fine. Even the more sportive oriented cruiser boats, like Hanse use it.

Better to see than to describe it. I will post four photos, on the three first you will see the German sheeting rigged to the front lateral winch (genoa on the other one). On the last one you will see it working.


































Regards

Paulo


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Interesting. I have a similar rig on my boat, with the whole thing mounted on a conventional traveler behind the cockpit. On each side of the car there is a line stopper, a turning block and a winch. It works very nicely although offshore I find I have to recenter the main sheet every few days.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Sorry guys. After looking better that one has the no traveller system, but the German sheeting is rigged to the top cabin winches. The front sail is rigged to the front lateral winches. The winches near the wheel would be for a spinnaker or geenaker. But if you ask they will rig the German sheeting to the back winches.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Paulo,

As I was looking at the pics, I was going, "where is the traveler?" nice to know I am not totally blind yet!

any way, still proves the point of " there is not on perfect way" along with the "variations on the 3 cockpit mounted systems" I mentioned above. One can vary ALL the systems to a degree to make more or less room in the cockpit, then it will depend on if you have a race or 2-3 person cruise crew.......as to how to rig each of the designs, along with ALL do help control the main. So choose "your" system to meet "YOUR" needs, not mine or someone elses.

Marty


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Obrigado Capitão for the images. I finally got the pictures how this works. I will confirm my understanding by studying more boats with various set up this weekend at the Annapolis Boat Show.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Glad to be of help. Nice try with "Capitão" , but here Capitão, in what regards boats, is only for the Navy. The correct term is "Patrão". We can translate it as Boss.

Keep us posted about what you see at the boat show, but on Europe most boats on boat shows are not rigged.

Regards

Paulo


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

rockDAWG said:


> Gentlemen, I am confused. How does the German system move the traveler?


Your image doesn't show the German/Admiral's cup main sheet system. Sheet runs under the length of the boom, out and diagnally to the deck from the gooseneck (where a crew member can help jump it ), then back to the main sheet winches. Some boats have them covered on the deck, other's don't. As others have said, you generally see this system on larger boats when a purchase system gets too long and cumbersome (read slow when doing a leeward mark rounding or gybing). I've never seen one that isn't end boom sheeted.

About the whole 'mid' vs. 'end' argument. It's generally the designer and build brief preference and the prefered location of the traveller vis a vis the intended use of the boat. Mid boom sheeting places higher loads on the boom, end boom less. Hardware and boom sections are adjusted accordingly.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Here you can have a look at most of the sheeting systems that are used:

Harken Mainsheet Systems

They call the German sheeting Admiral's Cup sheeting.


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## mccary (Feb 24, 2002)

rockDAWG said:


> Thanks Mates. Just make sure I take all this in. The end boom sheeting only have the mechanical advantage. As far as sail shape is concerned, both is the same???


I am not sure that is totally right... if you consider a boat with end-boom sheeting and look at the length of the traveler and then look at mid-boom sheeting and the length of the traveler, the mid-boom traveler is under the boom for a longer period of the sheeting arc. So the mid-boom traveler can control sail shape better. The mid-boom traveler can control twist further off the wind than end-boom, or so it seems to me.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

mccary said:


> I am not sure that is totally right... if you consider a boat with end-boom sheeting and look at the length of the traveler and then look at mid-boom sheeting and the length of the traveler, the mid-boom traveler is under the boom for a longer period of the sheeting arc. So the mid-boom traveler can control sail shape better. The mid-boom traveler can control twist further off the wind than end-boom, or so it seems to me.


Hence why Faster mentioned, a GOOD vang will be needed to control shape too, ie more with end boom than mid boom. 
Not sure this is a plus or minus for end vs mid, but differences none the less!

Marty


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

mccary said:


> I am not sure that is totally right... if you consider a boat with end-boom sheeting and look at the length of the traveler and then look at mid-boom sheeting and the length of the traveler, the mid-boom traveler is under the boom for a longer period of the sheeting arc. So the mid-boom traveler can control sail shape better. The mid-boom traveler can control twist further off the wind than end-boom, or so it seems to me.


It depends on the boat. Many modern race boats with German end boom sheeting/traveller systems have very long traveller tracks that traverse much of the stern of the boat behind the tiller or wheel and keeps the cockpit free for crew work like the farr 39 m/l

http://www.farrdesign.com/pdfs/336deck.pdf

and the farr 40 one design

http://www.farrdesign.com/pdfs/374deck.pdf

Notice that the 39 has two more winches at the aft of the boat. The 40 doesn't have runner, the 39 m/l's rig is runner dependent.

The open class designs (6.5 mini, 30, 40, 60, etc... ) have VERY long travellers at the aft of the boat which also happens to be the widest part of their hull forms.

Something like an Express 37 or 34 (20-25 year old racer/cruisers) have a longish traveller across the bridge deck and standard sheeting system that's about 3 feet from the end of the boom. For some, the traveller across the bridge deck is a deal killer as it's seen to interfere with access to the companion way for cruising. On the other hand, it's a good compromise taking advantage of the lighter mechanical arm and keeps the main in reach of the tiller when short handed, or for the driver and main trimmer to be seated next to each other.

Why mention race boats? In the end, this stuff all trickles down into production cruisers. Whether it's always good or useful for cruising is another argument. One thing though, a good vang is a thing of beauty for tweaking sail shape.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

puddinlegs said:


> ......Mid boom sheeting places higher loads on the boom, end boom less. Hardware and boom sections are adjusted accordingly.


One would hope.... In many cases, esp with smaller boats owners attempt to improve their set-ups by moving the traveller, or adding one and this means relocation the mainsheet/boom connection too.. these mods are not always properly engineered and can lead to weaknesses and problems down the road..

Our son has rerigged his Catalina 36 with a 'german' setup, original fwd traveller but with a double ended mainsheet handy to the wheel and the secondary winches. He's happy with it and my only (minor) misgiving is the additional line(s) running on deck as a possible tripping hazard, or a complication to installing jacklines. But it's miles ahead of the under-the-dodger, out-of-reach mainsheet winch setup.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Thanks Captains for all your input. 

Note to self. Take pics at the boat show for all different boom and traveler setup and I post them here. Without proper references and terminology, I am so confuse. Sorry, my neurons are not firing up this morning. Where is my coffee


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## mccary (Feb 24, 2002)

puddinlegs said:


> It depends on the boat. Many modern race boats with German end boom sheeting/traveller systems have very long traveller tracks that traverse much of the stern of the boat behind the tiller or wheel and keeps the cockpit free for crew work like the farr 39 m/l
> .


Even on the pictured boat if the aft end traveler was the entire width of the boat (at the stern), the effective length of the traveler (the boom angle that the traveler can pull straight down from) the mid cabin traveler has a wider effective coverage. Draw a line form the mast to the edge of the mid cabin traveler and compare that to the same line drawn from the mast to the aft end traveler end and see that this angle is less even though the traveler is wider. The wider arc of the mid boom traveler, it would seem, should give more control over a wider range of points of sail.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

I think Joe was a good student in high school geometry. He is exactly right with respect to the angles involved. 

In my experience, with an boom-end sheeting arrangement and a traveler that only extends across the cabin top, is that the traveler is plenty long if you have a good vang and a way to get purchase (or a winch) to pull the boom down under load.

Works for me.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

I have had both end boom and mid boom and there are benefits to both systems.

I currently have end boom on the CS-36T and would not have it any other way on this boat. End boom sheeting puts main and genny handling within reach of the wheel. My traveler is directly in front of the pedestal. I also tail my vang back too and that gives me most of the control I need unless I am in a "tweaking" mood.

The only draw back is that with a 3 1/2 year old we rarely sail with the main up as a family. By next summer it won't be an issue but from 1 - 3 1/2 we have just sailed under the 150 genny, which luckily our boat does very, very well and balances nicely.

Considering I sail solo A LOT, the end boom sheeting is a VERY nice feature to have as a single hander. Mid boom travelers can also obstruct vision especially on boats with dodgers, which most boats in the NE have. Obstructed vision and lobster pots don't mix well....

I love the visibility we have without a traveler in front of the dodger...


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

mccary said:


> The wider arc of the mid boom traveler, it would seem, should give more control over a wider range of points of sail.


On both the Farr boats I mentioned, the loads on a mid boom system would be structurally very difficult to deal with, yet alone trim efficiently. These boats are very powerful fractional rigs with very large mains. But it would be in the wrong place for optimizing the rest of what goes on in the cockpit. Having sailed boats with both mid and end boom sheeting, standard and German systems, I can say without a doubt that for boats over 35' or so that the German system is the fastest and most efficient for boat handling and sail trim. What I think is missing from the optimizing of one part is the broader view of the other parts of mainsail control systems: sheeting system (gross and fine tune), traveller, runners, checks, backstay, vang, cunningham, and outhaul. Believe me, if mid boom sheeting were more efficient as a component of the whole system, Bruce Farr's office would be drawing them exclusively.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

rockDAWG said:


> Base on the sail shape and sail efficiency, Which one is better? ,,,


the above posts provide thoughtful insights into the pros and cons of various sheeting arrangements, and there are plenty of considerations, but to the OP's specific subject of shape and sail efficiency, there is no difference for sail shape or efficiency. Nada,


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## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

I changed a Hunter 27 over from end of boom to mid boom sheeting for a very different reason. On an accidental jibe the mainsheet dropped into the cockpit as the boom flew across the boat. It pulled up tight under my armpit and tossed me over the lifelines! I was saved from going overboard by one foot catching in the lower lifeline while I dangled by my knees over the upper. I was about 25 years old and in excellent shape at the time, now I'd probably just disappear from sailnet suddenly!

Harken used to offer another style of mainsheet. It had two tails going into two cam cleats side by side. The sheet was endless, passing around a single block where the two came together. If you grabbed both lines in your hand and pulled you got a fast 3 to 1 purchase. If you pulled on either one alone you got 6 to 1. I thought that was pretty slick.

Gary H. Lucas


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Gary,

That system is still listed, or it was about a year ago in the Harken catalog. Like ANY sheeting system. I am sure that one has plus's and minus's too.

Mainsail, 
How big is the traveler in your 36T? the one in Dodenja's new 36M is about 2' long, BUT it was initially just behind the cabin and would be 5 or so feet wide if it was still there. But it does not work their due to the dodger.

Marty


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

puddinlegs said:


> ...Believe me, if mid boom sheeting were more efficient as a component of the whole system, Bruce Farr's office would be drawing them exclusively.


Not only Farr but all the other boat designers. I don't know of any modern racing boat with mid boom sheeting...well not even a real cruiser racer with one.

There are three strong reasons for a cruiser boat to have a mid boom sheeting and none of them related with sailing efficiency:

1- Safety for "passengers" on the cockpit.
2- Uncluttered cockpit.
3- Bimini.

Regards

Paulo


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

PCP said:


> Not only Farr but all the other boat designers. I don't know of any modern racing boat with mid boom sheeting...well not even a real cruiser racer with one.
> 
> There are three strong reasons for a cruiser boat to have a mid boom sheeting and none of them related with sailing efficiency:
> 
> ...


Agreed Paulo. Just using the Farr office as a well known example... all their basic scematic layouts are available on their site, so it was easy to provide links.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

blt2ski said:


> Mainsail,
> How big is the traveler in your 36T? the one in Dodenja's new 36M is about 2' long, BUT it was initially just behind the cabin and would be 5 or so feet wide if it was still there. But it does not work their due to the dodger.
> 
> Marty


About 4.5 feet. I have been trimming main sails as my racing duties for years and do not find the length of this traveler limiting in any regard.

When racing though I do prefer a mid boom arrangement as it allows me to trim from the companionway and stay out of the way of the head sail trimmers, tactician and helm.. I still ultimately prefer end boom when single handing or sailing with a group because I can do it all myself and not have to crawl over non-sailors just to trim the main..


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Maine Sail said:


> About 4.5 feet. I have been trimming main sails as my racing duties for years and do not find the length of this traveler limiting in any regard.


I'll assume then that you traveler "WAS THERE" from the get go ie designed to be where it is?!?! vs Davids is an after solution, hence why it is about 2' or the distance between the seats. Along with a blank spot where you can tell the traveler went before dodger.

Marty


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## tgzzzz (Sep 7, 2005)

Faster said:


> The other aspect of mid vs end boom is the strength of the whole setup.. mid boom sheeting is more prone to (admittedly rare) boom failure, esp on a hard, unexpected jibe. The further forward the attachment the weaker the whole thing may be.. *this is esp true if the modification has been made (perhaps to accomodate a dodger) without the required reinforcement of the boom at the attachment point*.


My 40 yr-old boat has gone thru many changes including the addition of mid boom sheeting as above. I was changing back to the original end boom for my own convenience as a single hander until I read the bold line above. That reason makes even more sense. Thanks.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Maine Sail said:


> When racing though I do prefer a mid boom arrangement as it allows me to trim from the companionway and stay out of the way of the head sail trimmers, tactician and helm.. I still ultimately prefer end boom when single handing or sailing with a group because I can do it all myself and not have to crawl over non-sailors just to trim the main..


It sounds like you're on a boat with halyards at the mast. Just curious, what boats have you sailed that has the traveller in the cockpit or further aft?

Speaking only for myself either as main trimmer or driver, the problem with companionway main trim is that you're much too far from the helmsman and not facing the right direction to see the tiller/wheel and sail. The ongoing conversation between helm and main trimmer is critical to boat speed. If the boat isn't moving, then the tactician has nothing to do.


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