# How many sailors actually know how to sail?



## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Here is a thought.

We have all seen and been on many boats and I would say of all the ones we have seen most don't know how to set their sails for the conditions. 

I also include myself in this. 

A sweeping statement I know but I am trying to be realistic. 

OK there never is just one way to set sails. There are so many different ways to set sails which will get you somewhere but actually setting them properly for maximum efficiency is an art that is often beyond me.

As a cruiser I am in general a pretty lazy sailor and tend to set the sails as best I can and tweak them occasionally. 

I have learnt a lot from racers who seem to be the best at setting them but there are so many combinations of things you can do and most sailors do not even contemplate some of them. 

It is just not a case of trying to get the tell tails flowing out but main sheets, travellers, Cunningham, reefs, balancing sails, back stay tightness or slackness, setting the cars and several other things.

It is said that a boat will also sail better on one tack than the other depending on what hemisphere it is in (something weird from the back of my mind).

So we do our best to set the sails but more often than not they could be more efficient but knowing how to make them is an art form many including myself never fully learn or understand.


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Go racing. Pick a boat to crew on that places well with a skipper who doesn't yell. 

North U has some good sail trim books and courses.

Dave Flynn of Quantum Sails has a very good seminar on sail trim for cruisers.

Go sailing. Try to apply what you learn.


----------



## Multihullgirl (Dec 2, 2010)

second Auspicious up there, and would add, get a dinghy and sail that too


----------



## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

Depends..controversial on the CF side. We had a racer type on board one time..just about tore up our sails... Cruisers tend to be more conservative in order to extend the life of equipment...


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

aa3jy said:


> Depends..controversial on the CF side. We had a racer type on board one time..just about tore up our sails... Cruisers tend to be more conservative in order to extend the life of equipment...


Funniest thing I ever heard a racer say, after we had been sailing for two days, and he had been tweaking the sails every thirty seconds of the trip, was when we found a little cove and I asked him to go drop the anchor, and he asked me "How do you do that?"

I said, "X, How many years have you been sailing (he is almost 60). He said, "About 50 years, but it's all been on race boats. I've never actually been on one when we had to anchor. When we race, we sail all night, and when the race is over, we pull into a marina and go home, or get hotel rooms." 

He had to explain that one, to the rest of us, over and over again the next few days on the boat. We still laugh about it.


----------



## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Of course, there are always extremes. You can always find the ex-racer who is never satisfied and has to tweak the sails every 20-30 seconds. On the other side, you can find the cruisers who almost seem proud of the fact that they know almost nothing about sail trim and will insist that they can enjoy sailing more that way.

Here's how I look at it. I used to race sailboats. I sailed in small dinghies and Hobie Cats. I learned how to set a spinnaker, how to gybe in serious winds, and how to trim a sail to get the very most out of it. Nowadays I almost never get involved in races. I'm not the sort who feels like he has to try to race every other sailboat that comes along, and maybe wants to pass me. Let them pass, I say. I set my sails and generally leave them alone unless there is a serious change in wind. I've gone a whole day on one tack, without touching the sheets.

But the knowledge I gained from sailing small boats and racing, I consider invaluable. I don't HAVE to use it to tweak my sails every 30 seconds, but I could if I wanted to. When the wind dies down and most of the other "sailors" turn into motor-boaters, I know how to set the sails so that I can keep on sailing... if I want to. Or maybe I'll just turn on the motor too. I have the option. I can choose, whereas those who don't know how to trim a sail have no choice.

I like having the choice.


----------



## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

I became much better at trimming sails once I started racing. Different priorities than cruising but I still like to get the most out of my boat so I will usually do some tweaking when needed. I enjoy this and it is what makes sailing fun for me and my wife.


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

For us I don't think it's as much about knowledge as it is comfort and gear conservation. When beating between islands with winds 20 to 30 knots and seas 7 to 12 feet, I don't see any reason to strap her in and bash our brains out. The 10 degrees we loose by easing off is probably made up for by a better angle on the seas, keeping the boat moving at a more consistent pace.
In the lees and beating up into a bay in flat water, we will put a lot more attention into efficiency, but still Cunningham, balancing sails, back stay tightness or slackness, setting the cars and several other things, wouldn't make a great deal of difference in the last mile and a half of a 40 to 60 mile sail.
We reef early, preferring to keep her on her lines, rather than rolling her over on her topsides, something I seriously doubt is actually is profitable for VMG on something longer than a leeward to windward mark race course.
During the 8 months we sailed without an autopilot, we learned a great deal about sailing this boat, but she is not a racer for us (the previous owner did race her) and unless her very survival depends on maximum efficiency under sail, we will not push her or over tax her for fun or bragging rights. I haven't even seen the genoa in over three years and the days the full main has been up, in the same period, can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand, but we still manage to keep our daily average above 6.5 knots and this includes sailing the lees of the islands.


----------



## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

Provocative at best. What's realistic about telling the sailing community most of them don't know how to set sails for given conditions? According to who? Who cares? If racer X can sail with full canvas in a 30kt blow, and I can't (or won't) is someone going to look at us and say one is correct, the other is not. I've seen more than a couple of your posts have this provocative line of open questioning.


----------



## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Dave_E said:


> Provocative at best. What's realistic about telling the sailing community most of them don't know how to set sails for given conditions? According to who? Who cares? If racer X can sail with full canvas in a 30kt blow, and I can't (or won't) is someone going to look at us and say one is correct, the other is not. I've seen more than a couple of your posts have this provocative line of open questioning.


Dave,
It is provocative.. I agree and also judging by the boats we see with the sails up it is also probably true.
I try to be honest to myself in my questions but also try to put them in a way that arouses discussion and interaction. By doing that I actually learn something rather than put something up because I know the answer and want to prove to others I know the answer.
Although I have done some racing with others I personally have never been a racer and have never spent enough time with one to really know how to set the sails properly in different conditions. 
I know the basics but it is the finer points I am missing.
We do cruise so I too don't spend all my time trying to trim the sails but I still do get the red mist with boats going in the same direction and I am often trying to work out why they are going faster when they come past me.


----------



## TerryBradley (Feb 28, 2006)

Actually, I am convinced that proper setting of sails is mostly magic. It is only done right after you have collected the appropriate talismans and learned the correct incantations! Also the incantations must be done using the correct intonations. This takes a lifetime of sailing unless you can find a sailing Guru.


----------



## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

I have seen racers who tensioned their sails more than I thought was necessary, but not often. Modern winches and winch handles can put alot of tension on a sail, but the wind can put a whole lot more of a load on a sail than you could ever hope to put on it with a winch and winch handle. In strong winds, the wind will put enormous pressure on a sail that is overly full in shape. Adding enough tension to shape it properly will actually reduce the load on the sail by reducing the wind pressure on it. In addition, when the sail is properly flattened, the boat will be able to point a little higher, and accordingly, the helmsman can steer a little closer to the wind. Feathering to windward also reduces the wind pressure on the sails. Thus, by easing the various tensioners and bearing off slightly in strong winds you are actually increasing the wind load on your sails.


----------



## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Nostrodamus said:


> Here is a thought.
> 
> We have all seen and been on many boats and I would say of all the ones we have seen most don't know how to set their sails for the conditions.


So what? If they're happy with it and it gets them where they want to go, that's all that is needed. For many, sailing is about relaxation from normal day stresses....you know, rules, regulations, laws, standard procedures, etc. So why become obsessive about doing it just right...ok on your own boat if you want to play it that way, but fretting about how the other guy does it on his boat?

Then, who is to be the judge of proper set of sails?


----------



## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

I'll agree with those who recommend racing. The OP asked if we really know how to "sail" the boat. Not cruise, anchor, drink, or fix a hull. Actually _sail_. Anecdotally, I am a lifetime sailor who raced in college, offshore between seasons, and after graduating, followed by 25 years "cruising". I found that my actual "sailing" skill had atrophied and some knowledge was quite dated. So I started casually racing again in 2008. I brought in a bunch of go-fast guys and they proceeded to tell me everything that I was doing wrong (e.g., making holes in the water while tacking, etc, etc). But I listened. _I gained more knowledge in these last 6 years than the previous 20._ Three years ago, I brought in a friend that is a great seaman and live aboard cruiser. When one race was over, he commented that he'd learned a bunch of new things.

Racing really does improve skill if one is willing to listen and get out of the way of their ego. You don't have to get crazy about it and abandon all the things that we love about cruising.


----------



## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

The word sailors, needs to be in quotes. 

We meet new friends and / or reconnect with old ones (I am working on the plans for my 50th hs reunion) and the topic of sailing often comes up. It isn't unusual for folks to claim they are "sailors". Sometimes it is true. More often than not it means they have been passengers on someone's sailboat. Making plans to invite someone to come along on a sail requires a bit of scrutiny.

Jibe Ho!

Down


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Ill just add that dinghy sailing can be as useful if not MORE useful than racing for those wanting to perfect their SAILING skills...

stuff like pointing into the wind, hovering, backing a boat by sail, heaving to...sculling, sailing with one sail, dumping wind, tacking efficiently, correct rudder movement...weight placement, quick reefing or how to deal with overcanvassed rig etc...etc..etc...

its very noticeable in cruising boats(to me at least) and those that use them whether they have dinghy sailing experience or not...

1. Id venture to guess and this is a rough guess on my behalf from the people I have cruised with and met around the globe that maybe maybe only 20-25% of cruisers have actually set foot on a sailing dinghy.

2. around half have never raced any sailboat.

3. around 50% have a real fear of boat handling under sail in tight or small areas...they really have a paranoia of being left without an engine under most routine circumstances...despite them being on a SAILBOAT.

lastly as both a racer and a cruiser I can switch that light on an off as I please...

while I prefer to cruise, adjust sails a few times and tweak things a few times, I do NOT let that get to me for example on any passage more than 1 day in length...

meaning I prefer to simplify while cruising and while racing I can switch the obnoxious, ocd nature that racing sailors have...the constant fidgeting and adhd symptoms a lot of racers exhibit is simply the nature of racing, especially dinghy racing...

anywhoo I think on other threads I have pointed out that dinghy sailing as well as racing and small boat handling will always make the average cruiser on a 30-50ft boat a MUCH BETTER sailior OVERALL.

the more you learn and do the better...

peace


----------



## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Nostrodamus said:


> Here is a thought.
> 
> We have all seen and been on many boats and I would say of all the ones we have seen most don't know how to set their sails for the conditions.
> 
> ...


If your on the boat with the sails up and going somewhere, they know how to sail. I would say a good 99.8% of sailors know how to sail. How many swimmers know how to swim?


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

aa3jy said:


> Cruisers tend to be more conservative in order to extend the life of equipment...


I've watched a lot of cruisers who leave their sails over-eased and flogging (presumably to avoid overtensioning something). This is both slow and harder on the sails then using them properly.

I think the activities which have taught me the most about sail trim are light air racing and doing everything possible to keep our boat moving (while everyone around us drifts) while enjoying a beer on a zero wind summer day. As a result of those activities I'm pretty good at very light air sailing.

I've got more to learn when it comes to heavy air sailing. One thing that I've learned by racing in heavy air is how "blown out" most of the sails that I've used on cruising boats are. The more advanced than dacron sails used on racing boats allow you to get the sail a whole lot flatter when you need to.

2 of the 3 racing boats that I've sailed on are run on a tiny little budget. One of them is consistently getting top 10 results in the Seattle area. I think it's incorrect to assume that all racing boats are owned and run by folks with deep pockets.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I remember back in my old club that one of the best racers had the oldest, ugliest lightest boat of them all...

but his trimming, and sails were impeccable...his focus was on that and not the rest...and he alwayys did pretty damn good if not win most of the time...

back in san francisco you could always tell the real racer from the flashy know it all impecable looking boat pretty easily...

and there were plenty in between these 2 extremes.

I think club racing and beer can racing is a great way for any sailor or cruiser for that matter to explore the tuning and tweaking aspect of sailing on a mild scenario...

hardcore racing can put many people off myself included...I really hate the life or death attitude a lot of the "hardcore" racers had in some clubs...

I also know some of these racers act like that while crusing the oceans...a lot CANNOT turn off that switch

and it destroys the pleasures of cruising

when you are arguing right of way and what tack and what rule someone broke on some beatiful anchorage in paradise you are not doing your cruising boat justice...jajaja


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Nostrodamus said:


> Here is a thought.
> 
> <Blah, blah, blah snip for brevity>


I've observed over the last several days, that the OP enjoys pontification.


----------



## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

If someone can get from point A to point B and back - by sail alone - I would say they know how to sail.


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Nostrodamus said:


> Here is a thought.
> 
> We have all seen and been on many boats and I would say of all the ones we have seen most don't know how to set their sails for the conditions.


Well, regarding the cruising sailors I observe up and down the US East coast and into the islands, it's a bit difficult to say... That is primarily due to the fact that I so rarely see them actually _sailing_... 

Sailing just doesn't seem to be much of a priority among many I encounter out there... The primary consideration in the outfitting and equipping of so many cruising boats today appears to be comfort and having all the amenities of a house aboard, rather than performance under sail... Attention paid to a light-air sail inventory - which will most make the difference between sailing and motoring - is virtually non-existent among the cruisers I see, most of whom will only bother to sail when conditions are ideal for working sails only... Even then, it's astonishing how many will opt for motoring, or motor-sailing at best...

One key to sailing well, and trimming sails properly, is the ability to actually be able to _SEE_ the sails  On many of the cruising boats out there today, that has become a virtual impossibility... Even a Paul Cayard, or a Ben Ainslie, would struggle mightily to 'sail' many of today's Kroozing Boats well...


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

couldnt agree more bud, every time I see that pic it reminds me of at least 75% of cruisers out there that have been made to beleive that "outfitting" is more important than sailing and doing so effciently as a safety measure

I may be bare bones and anti outfitting as its known today but I preffer sailing better and more efficiently as a ways of keeping the boat happy if you will...

the amount of windage and towers and the like on many cruisin boats today makes me wonder if some of these boats have ever been sailed in stock configurations by their new owners 

in any case back to sailing 

cruising trim once or twice a day and read a book and be happy
racing thats a whole nother shebang! jajajaja


----------



## DonScribner (Jan 9, 2011)

I'm there. I've read the books, stared blithely at the high res photos and wonder what the heck this guy was trying to get across. Were I to venture a guess, I'd say my sails are tired but still functional. I've passed hull speed a couple of times, and sail at about 3/4 hull speed most days and I'm OK with that. I love to sail, the salt air, the spray, the relaxing trip and the glass of a Merlot with my lovely bride at anchor. The only racing I'll be doing is for the head if there's a repeat of the burrito incident of 2006. 

Don


----------



## findrichard (Jan 16, 2014)

Sailing fast can be a safety issue and all sailors venturing out in open water should understand how to efficiently sail their vessels. Do they need to be experienced in racing - no. But understanding how to trim sails efficiently in all wind conditions, understanding how all their sail controls effect their sails and boat speed just makes good common sense. Those that don't want to know don't have to but I will never understand why one would not want to know when and how to use their boom vang or out haul or adjust their cars correctly. For example, I am approaching landfall, all other sailboats have made safe harbor, bad weather or nightfall is closing in on me and I am just cruising along, under powered by inefficient sail trim. Oh well so I get slammed by that weather or oh well so I have to make that first time entry into a strange harbor in the dark, at least I don't have to bother with sailing fast! Crank up the motor Sally, whats that? motor won't crank? I don't get it, makes no sense to me, but who am I to judge.


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

For the non racer types. Read a book or two then when you have a really long board play. Pick a sail and change just one thing with the boat on AP or someone holding a fixed AWA. Say "I'll just move the car forward a foot" or 'I'll just move the traveler down a bit". Trim the sheet as necessary to get the most number of tell tails flowing right with that change. Wait and see what it does to your speed. That way it's low key but still teaches you what's fast and wants not. Also teaches you what your boat likes. For instance my new boat likes to be flatter than my last boat but can carry a lot more sail. Whereas I would reef the main at 20k on the prior boat on this one it's ~25k but the backstay, outhaul and halyard need to be tight and the traveler down although a bit of twist is usually ok. The old boat was more sensitive to having the outhaul loose in light air and was less sensitive to halyard tension. This one needs both the halyard and outhaul loose. Old boat needed the genny in light air upwind. This one doesn't lose much with the solent in light air as long as you are beating and tacking is so much easier.
Yes racing is great fun and a great objective teacher but you can learn your own boat just messing around with an occasional glance at the speedo.. Isn't the most fun just messing around in boats.


----------



## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> ...they really have a paranoia of being left without an engine under most routine circumstances...despite them being on a SAILBOAT.


Reminds me of the story I read a few years back about a "sailor" off the west coast of Mexico. He lost his engine. Otherwise his boat was fine. His own observations indicate that he never had less than 5 knots of wind the entire time that he was "becalmed." He eventually called mayday and abandoned his boat.

Here's a guy who abandoned his boat, basically because he had no real clue how to sail. I just shake my head at stories like that. Wow.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

me too but its understandeable when dock talk and all the bombardment of safety stuff people in catalogs tell you you need and cant live without...essential equipment, courses you must take or else...

examples of this liferafts, epirbs, sat phones, ais, everything you cant leave the harbor without

while Im not advocating leaving shore for a round the world trip without at least basic systems, preferrably redundant, its the fact that people put so much enfasis on things NOT SAIL oriented

I mean people used to drift in the doldrums for months even and it was normal and expected...

now I hear of people crossing oceans expecting to never go below 5 knots or else space thrusters are activated

we have become sooooooooooooooooo impatient its no surprise hearing stories about people calling maydays cause they have no engine

Im not surprised at ALL but im saddened just the same

for all intents an purposes if the people sailing said boat knew how to use light air sails, induce heel, pick a course better suited to light winds or simply knew how to wait like mariners used to none of these issues would be used as examples


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

SVAuspicious said:


> Go racing. Pick a boat to crew on that places well with a skipper who doesn't yell.
> 
> North U has some good sail trim books and courses.
> 
> ...


Bingo !!! If you want to be a better more efficient cruiser, go do some hands on racing. You will likely learn more in a year of racing that you could in a lifetime if "winging it" as a cruiser.. Ask questions of the most competent sail tweakers you can find then listen & pay attention to the answers...

I find it interesting that vang, Cunningham and traveler are rarely _utilized _by many cruisers yet in racing we _rarely_ use the main sheet in comparison to the other sail shaping tools we have.....

I have been sailing nearly my entire life, including lots of racing, and still find the elusive "perfect" sail balance far out of reach. Now don't get me wrong, I am no Luddite, and will often fire up the Japanese genny more often than I should, but when I really want to sail I can. This is not Dennis Conner grade, or anywhere even close, but I can make her move pretty well for an old girl...

A number of years ago I was sailing with a friend on a pretty good performing boat. We were beating into some ocean swells brought on by the previous days wind. Our winds were light, 6-10 knots. He insisted on over sheeting the sails and we kept loosing momentum trying to beat into the swells. Really performing quite poorly.

His boat, I said nothing, and just sat back and enjoyed a vodka/lemonade. All of a sudden he gave the order to drop sail and he was ready to fire up the motor. I politely asked if he would allow me to make a few sail tweaks before doing that, to which he obliged.

I put some shape in the head sail, slackened the halyard and adjusted the genny car. I then put shape in the main, let it out a bit, adjusted the outhaul, vang, halyard and traveler and holy crap we were powering right up and over the swells like they were not even there.

He was shocked and kept insisting that the wind had picked up. I just kept my mouth shut and enjoyed the rest of the sail, rather than motor.... Hopefully he learned something, I'll never know. I did not force feed it to him because he did not want to admit it was the sail tweaks that made the difference, perhaps a pride thing. All I know is that it turned out to be a great sail where previously it was not a great sail, because we lacked "good trim".........


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Having no traveller, adjustable backstay, or cunningham sure simplifies sail adjustment.

Get ALL the telltales to fly, from the bottom to the top of both sails, and you won't be far wrong.


----------



## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

I admit that I just don't feel right if the sails are not trimmed properly. There is just something magical about being in the zone.


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

On Saturday the winds were light and I was doing about 4 kts - unfortunately into a 3 kt current - resultant SOG 1 kt. This is an example of when sail trim can make a significant difference. I managed to get her up to 5 kts - doubling my SOG!


----------



## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

I'm glad that some people are taking it easy out there...otherwise I wouldn't get to pass anyone at all.

Wall of Shame | Sailing Fortuitous


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

It seems to me we're talking about two related but fundamentally different situations.

The first is really a question regarding the general level of skill of most sailors. Obviously almost everyone who owns and operates a sailboat can sail. Sailing is pretty easy, but like any skill, it takes effort and practice to get really good at it. As a cruiser, I'm generally pretty lax compared to my racing friends. I sometimes go into serious tweak-mode, but I'm definitely not a great sailor. However, I do sail.

Which gets to the second theme of this thread: there are a lot of motorboats with sticks operating out there. There does seem to be an increasing dependance on _wind-by-Perkins_ within the sailing fraternity. I can't count the number of times I've heard my sailing friends (some of whom are better sailors than I) say they must maintain x-knots, no matter what the wind conditions. If they drop below this, the engine comes on. I'm always bemused by this attitude.

Now, sometimes when you are coastal cruising it becomes a necessity to get somewhere before nightfall, but this can usually be managed with better planning. The real problem is sailing to a schedule, and having firm plans. In those cases you are forced to maintain 5-6-7 knots no matter what.


----------



## findrichard (Jan 16, 2014)

maine sail, your skipper was just being observant. the apparent wind did most certainly pick up!


----------



## CarbonSink62 (Sep 29, 2011)

One of the many things I love about sailing is the opportunities it constantly provides to improve my game. Getting underway; docking; anchoring; raising sails; lowering sails... Every performance is almost always good enough, but they could also almost always be improved.

A long tack allows me lots of time to tweak this and that to get an extra tenth of a knot, but I don't have to.

I promise to be careful outfitting my 'cruising boat' so it doesn't become a Kroozing Boat.

Now that I think of it, I should take some steps to reduce my personal windage; swimsuit season approaches.

Ken


----------



## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

And what is wrong with our cruising boat?


----------



## findrichard (Jan 16, 2014)

No sails, but I like it.


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

findrichard said:


> maine sail, your skipper was just being observant. the apparent wind did most certainly pick up!


Yes the _apparent wind_ did pick up, but not the _true wind_....


----------



## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Sailing isn't very difficult. You don't need to know much about sail trim, to 'sail'. 
I didn't have much interest in sail trim until I started racing my own cruising boats. Then I really enjoyed the science and craft of making the boats sail better. 

I think light air separates sailors into to different levels. Racing means you'll do a lot of light air sailing. 

Several of us Dads got a call last season from a group of our kids out in a 22' sailboat. 

"Hey Dad, we're out in Joe's boat, the wind died, and we can't get the outboard going. Can you send somebody out to tow us in?" 

The non-sailing or lesser skilled sailing Dads started calling for somebody that had a motorboat. 

The better sailing Dads looked up and around, and said things like,"No wind,...then how come the trees are moving?" 

And we didn't call anybody.


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

JonEisberg said:


>


Wow !!!! As Bob Perry says, that's a lot of "junk on the trunk"..... The Honda generators is no big surprise, heck I am surprised there's not a port and starboard model..... Just when I think our boat is getting too much junk on the trunk I see a shot like that and it makes me feel better...


----------



## DonScribner (Jan 9, 2011)

That's more-or-less where I was going when I went off on my sail torrent a few months ago. Who loves sailing more, or maybe, who is more dedicated: the guy who has every creature comfort known to man strapped to his aft, or the guy who has just the essentials; chart, a compass, a warm blanket and a cold sandwich? That dinghy, less the 4-stroke, costs more than my yacht, and I'm OK with that. I do, however, suffer from mast envy on occasion. Anchored in Damariscove, looking down from the Tower Loop and see the two 40 footers moored ahead of us, masts reaching for the sky. The I hear the words no sailor wants to hear, "Why is yours so SMALL?"


BVI in13 days


----------



## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Maine Sail said:


> .


Is that an anchor ball he has up there in the picture?


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I've observed over the last several days, that the OP enjoys pontification.


To say the very least.


----------



## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Racing has ruined me. I don't 'relax' til a sail is tensioned and trimmed right.

But in a life of doing both, I've found much more in racing that I can use in cruising, than vice-versa.


----------



## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

As usual the only one who knows how to sail is the blowhard you're talking to at the moment.


----------



## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I've observed over the last several days, that the OP enjoys pontification.


pontificate
verb expound, preach, sound off, pronounce, declaim, lay down the law, hold forth, dogmatize,

I don't think I have preached anything, certainly I never tell anyone what they should do.
I like to be honest, express my views without condemning anyone else and listen to others opinions. It helps me learn and hopefully promotes a stimulating thread.
Besides I thought this was a forum for doing that.
If I wanted to learn without argument I could read a book but I personally think the opinions expressed on here by people actually sailing are more interesting and probably more in line with reality.... well most are


----------



## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

Nostrodamus said:


> pontificate
> verb expound, preach, sound off, pronounce, declaim, lay down the law, hold forth, dogmatize,
> 
> I don't think I have preached anything, certainly I never tell anyone what they should do.
> ...


I just re-read your original post. If you would have left out your first sentence, no one would be critiquing your "attitude" (could be read as kind of snobby). You mention yourself as being a "non-perfect sail setter, and sometimes lazy. That's great. Me too. But your first sentence WAS a statement that pronounced most sailors are sail setting dweebs and condescending. Honestly, to me that's the way you come accross. I will not take offense. 

Dave


----------



## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Dave_E said:


> I just re-read your original post. If you would have left out your first sentence, no one would be critiquing your "attitude" (could be read as kind of snobby). You mention yourself as being a "non-perfect sail setter, and sometimes lazy. That's great. Me too. But your first sentence WAS a statement that pronounced most sailors are sail setting dweebs and condescending. Honestly, to me that's the way you come accross. I will not take offense.
> 
> Dave


Dave, No offence taken.. If i give it out I have to expect to get it back.

I know in my case I did all the usual courses and passed them all but never once was I show or checked on my sail setting. I "picked it up" along the way and even to this day I do what I think is right. I should imagine that if a racer came aboard he would fall about laughing.

There a few people I know who have ever been anywhere to learn how to set sails correctly for different conditions. It is usually picked up from others

Racers appear to have a better knowledge of how to set sails but do their rules apply to cruising when you are not trying to get every bit of speed out the boat. We are looking for a compromise between speed and safety that compromise may be different to racers. They seem to break more rigs, sails and boats than I do. Then again that is the nature of what they do. They are racing.

We may read books and learn from each other but what we think is right may in fact be totally wrong.

In comparison.. At one time I used to teach people who thought they could drive to actually drive properly, safely and at very high speeds. The hardest part was *un teaching* them what they had been doing for years. It is easier to teach someone who has never driven than someone who thinks they can.

Bad habits are hard to break and a man or woman does not like to be criticised about their driving or sailing.

How did others on here learn to set sails in different weathers, different combinations and for the direction they are sailing in...

It would be interesting to hear or see if anyone has been on a course run by someone specifically for setting sails.


----------



## Multihullgirl (Dec 2, 2010)

On the whole, one may not care whether he is eke-ing out every ounce of drive from his sails. Where the racing experience comes in handy for the cruiser is in less than optimum conditions: clawing off, making round some sort of obstruction, trying to get somewhere as fast as possible*, contrary currents, engine breakdowns, etc

I can't imagine what could possibly be wrong with sailing as efficiently as possible in all conditions, though

__
* you may not be sailing to a schedule, but at some point your food or water might run out, or conditions at your destination might become contrary (tides etc)


----------



## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Multihullgirl said:


> On the whole, one may not care whether he is eke-ing out every ounce of drive from his sails. Where the racing experience comes in handy for the cruiser is in less than optimum conditions: clawing off, making round some sort of obstruction, trying to get somewhere as fast as possible, contrary currents, engine breakdowns, etc
> 
> I can't imagine what could possibly be wrong with sailing as efficiently as possible in all conditions, though


I agree with what you say totally but how do you know you are sailing as efficiently as possible?

How did you learn to set sails?


----------



## Multihullgirl (Dec 2, 2010)

Nostrodamus said:


> I agree with what you say totally but how do you know you are sailing as efficiently as possible?
> 
> How did you learn to set sails?


Racing. Started out in multihull dinghies (Hobie, NACRA etc) moved to F-boat trimarans and larger cats, now have the Catana.

TOB (Time On da Boat)


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Nostrodamus said:


> I agree with what you say totally but how do you know you are sailing as efficiently as possible?
> 
> How did you learn to set sails?


It's not exactly rocket science...  North U's book on Sail Trim is one of the better I've seen...

MarkSF said it best: Simply get all your telltales streaming, and you're pretty good to go...

Telltales don't lie, after all...  Here's an excellent place to start:

WB-Sails - Aerodynamics


----------



## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Multihullgirl said:


> Racing. Started out in multihull dinghies (Hobie, NACRA etc) moved to F-boat trimarans and larger cats, now have the Catana.
> 
> TOB (Time On da Boat)


Thank you Multihullgirl,

In a way that is what I am saying though. We tend to learn from others and also add other bits in along the way.

As a racer you will know how many adjustments can be made to a sail in so many different ways. A racer will adjust a sail in a way cruisers don't even think about . There are a variety of combinations that work, some better than others.

Of skippers you have learnt from I should imagine some do things different ways to others... who is to say which way is right.

You have been lucky in being in that position to learn. I did racing with others and had a dinghy for a long time.

It might be I am doing things right but I doubt it. It would be interesting to have the same boat in the same conditions and see how many combinations of sail set there would be from different people.

As you say.. it is good to sail as efficiently as possible but sometimes we also need to sail as inefficiently as possible in going into anchor, marina or to a buoy. For some reason my handbrake doesn't seem to work!


----------



## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> It's not exactly rocket science...  North U's book on Sail Trim is one of the better I've seen...
> 
> MarkSF said it best: Simply get all your telltales streaming, and you're pretty good to go...
> 
> ...


Unless your going down wind

good site though... thank you for that.. hopefully it will help me and anyone else who is interested.


----------



## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I'm a cruiser through and through, but I learned to sail by racing in our local yacht club on other people's boats. After I learned to sail I took a course in 420 sailing. I've built my own sailing dinghy, and docked 30 foot cruising boats at the marina under sail alone both backing in and bow in. I reckon I know how to sail and the trophies I've collected indicate I can sail well, fast and efficient regardless of whether I'm on a ultra light sport boat, a heavy cruiser or a even my previous cruising catamaran. 

On the other hand I've got a lot to learn. An awesome amount to learn. 

I define knowing how to sail as being able to go somewhere I planned to go under sail. I do not strive for every ounce of speed I can get simply because endless tweaking of the sail is, to me, not relaxing or enjoyable. 
Instead I strive to set my sails so the boat is balanced, sailing efficiently with minimal rudder drag on a course I desire. I may play with the traveler to keep the balance and course but try to leave the wheel locked (no autopilot).


----------



## Multihullgirl (Dec 2, 2010)

Nostro,

Racing also teaches you how to stop. If you're early on the line, you have to either slow or stop the boat. There is a famous anecdote about Randy Smyth (go look him up) where he went backwards across a start line. The upshot was that everyone starting had to give way because they were overtaking. Backing a boat under sail is a good thing to know how to do.

And telltales most certainly do work downwind… Lift is lift, brotha. Regardless the point of sail, you are (for the most part) keeping the sails at the same angle of attack with regards to the wind. Your boat is what turns. Sometimes it's easier to think of it that way.


----------



## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

Multihullgirl said:


> Nostro,
> 
> Racing also teaches you how to stop. If you're early on the line, you have to either slow or stop the boat. There is a famous anecdote about Randy Smyth (go look him up) where he went backwards across a start line. The upshot was that everyone starting had to give way because they were overtaking. Backing a boat under sail is a good thing to know how to do.
> 
> And telltales most certainly do work downwind&#8230; Lift is lift, brotha. Regardless the point of sail, you are (for the most part) keeping the sails at the same angle of attack with regards to the wind. Your boat is what turns. Sometimes it's easier to think of it that way.


Thank you Multi hull for correcting me... I tug my forelock, look down, kick the ground embarrassed and eat my humble pie.


----------



## findrichard (Jan 16, 2014)

Properly shaped sails are nothing more than an airfoil and just like an airplane wing, they create lift as air flows over them; pulling the boat through the water. The shape of the sail (airfoil), the angle of the sail to the wind (angle of attack), and the speed of the wind across the sails determine how much lifting force is generated - which determines how fast the boat goes. Every airfoil has a range of angles of attack where lift is produced. All else equal, there is an optimum angle of attack for producing maximum lifting force. Varying form the option angle of attack reduces lifting force proportionally, and at some point the sail (airfoil) stalls, meaning it is no longer producing useful lift. When sailing downwind the sail's angle of attack is beyond the range of angles capable of producing lift and just becomes a large surface area for the wind to push against. The tale-tales shows the direction of airflow across the sails (airfoil) and and therefore are an indicator of the sails ability to create lift. Congratulations you just completed aerodynamics 101 with out even having to concern yourself with the Bernoulli principle.


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

I'm surprised that your aerodynamics 101 course makes no mention of drag. Surely the goal is maximum lift, with minimum drag. This would suggest that the "if in doubt, let it out" rule has a basis in aerodynamics, as you are reducing drag. Letting the sail out until it luffs, then trimming it until all the telltales just fly, should achieve the point of minimum drag.

Racers might have the measure of me when it comes to sail trim, but on the other hand as a cruiser I have never knocked the boat down while flying a kite in 25 kts of wind, over-driven the boat so that it's on the constant verge of a broach, or crashed into another boat while asserting my god-given right-of-way, all of which you would assume are good practice if you were to watch some of the racers in SF Bay for a while.

I consider the ability to sail as being defined as "the ability to safely and efficiently execute a passage from one destination to another"


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I used to sail out of berkeley for a year or so and man! nothing like weekend racing to get oherwise normal people all riled up and crazy...

hardcore is an understatement


----------



## findrichard (Jan 16, 2014)

Yes, if you sheet in the sail tighter than its optional angle of attack you are not only reducing lifting force you are also inducing leeway, meaning the wind starts creating a pushing force on the sail like it does when sailing downwind. This obviously means the wind begins using the sail to push the boat downwind while you are trying to go up wind or at least across wind. Wind pushing on the rigging, the boats free-board, equipment and dingy stowed on deck, Bimini canvas, people, etc. all produce some leeway as well.


----------



## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

You can blame roller furling, Not only do you almost always have the wrong sail, shape, and weight for the conditions but who wants to reef the main when they can pull a string on the jib.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

ja!

im old school...losey goosey and when in light winds I want sag in the forestay and also let the halyard loose an inch or so...some "pockets" between hanks

same for the main...get a nice deep pocket....loosen it all up and call it a day

back to the original point of this thread I think it has gotten sidetracked a bit bascially the more boats you get to know and sail and tweak the better sailor you will be

that and practice practice practice and

get to know YOUR BOAT

no point talking about other boats when your boat has its own quirks and such


----------



## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

christian.hess said:


> ja!
> 
> im old school...losey goosey and when in light winds I want sag in the forestay and also let the halyard loose an inch or so...some "pockets" between hanks
> 
> ...


I think you are right but I have a disadvantage to sail trim before I start with a big roller genoa and in mast reefing. Then again for me it is right as I sail a lot on my own in conditions which can change very quickly.


----------



## findrichard (Jan 16, 2014)

Yes practice makes perfect but more precisely, perfect practice makes perfect. Knowledge is not all that useful without application experience.


----------



## Golfdad91 (Jan 30, 2014)

Sailing is all relative. I thought I knew guys who could really sail. Then I met and saw Randy Smythe.


----------



## findrichard (Jan 16, 2014)

Is he a relative of yours?


----------



## Samuelmonosov (Mar 7, 2014)

I'm a huge fan of Nigel Calder's cruising handbook. He goes into great detail about the systems relating to sails and shape. There is especially a great section on sail "twist"; how to identify it, and what to do to maximize the lift and vacuum. Check it out if you can. It helped to simplify the mystery of the sail. Oh, and there's a blurb about the hemispheres and the difference in the thickness of air in each. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Golfdad91 (Jan 30, 2014)

hey Richard great comeback


----------



## Golfdad91 (Jan 30, 2014)

Hey Multihull girl I cannot pm but yes that is me.


----------



## Multihullgirl (Dec 2, 2010)

Oh, sorry, just noticed your post count, Golfdad

I guess we 'met' in Grand Lagoon FL, I had the modified trimaran with the blue splash design paint job. She has been sold and now I have a cruising cat

Do you still have the NACRA, or have you changed boats?


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Multihullgirl said:


> Nostro,
> 
> And telltales most certainly do work downwind&#8230; Lift is lift, brotha. Regardless the point of sail, you are (for the most part) keeping the sails at the same angle of attack with regards to the wind. Your boat is what turns. Sometimes it's easier to think of it that way.


I think what is happening is that you are going fast enough to create significant apparent wind shift. On my sluggish keelboat, you don't tend to see telltales flying going downwind, on anything from broad reach downwards.


----------



## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

MarkSF said:


> I think what is happening is that you are going fast enough to create significant apparent wind shift. On my sluggish keelboat, you don't tend to see telltales flying going downwind, on anything from broad reach downwards.


Can I take my humble pie back yet?


----------



## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I don't think knowing how to trim sails for maximum efficiency is what it takes to be a sailor. 

I think to know how to sail, you need to be able single handedly get yourself from point a to point b safe to people and equipment. 

I know how to drive a consider myself an excellent driver. But I don't think I would win a race. I don't know how to get every once of power or just how fast I can take the turns without sliding out. Much more important in knowing how to drive is to get to you destination. 

And know how to park once you get there.


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

It's good to learn more about sail trim for a cruiser. 
Poorly trimmed sail gets more creep and sag- doesn't last as long. Reef early and often means less wear, a flatter and faster boat. Sure racers will wear out sails faster. But a poorly trimmed cruiser will wear out sails faster than one who pays attention to trim. I don't mean just pulling in the leach line to prevent flogging. It's also saves to sail not power. Not just money but soul.
We try to pay attention to the " days work". If we are going slow it cues us something's up. Bad bottom, prop not feathering right- something. Just learning our boat. Look at the polar from time to time. Starting to know what to expect from her. Starting to know when we are screwing up. If you aren't sailing fairly efficiently you won't have that feedback.
Agree sight lines on cruising boat stink. But there's nothing wrong with moving about so you can see the whole sail. Yes usually cruising you can't sit to leeward and stare at the slot all the time but you can put it on ap or the brake or have some one else steer so you can get a peak at the yarns.
Just feels good when the boat is working right with a bone in her teeth. Got a lot to learn as said hardest part is light air.


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

barefootnavigator said:


> You can blame roller furling, Not only do you almost always have the wrong sail, shape, and weight for the conditions but who wants to reef the main when they can pull a string on the jib.


Yeah, one can only wonder how much longer it will be, before the owners of all those Swans and Wallys begin to realize the massive performance hit they're taking with roller furling headsails...


----------



## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> Yeah, one can only wonder how much longer it will be, before the owners of all those Swans and Wallys begin to realize the massive performance hit they're taking with roller furling headsails...


Ha. And someone should tell F. Joyon he's doing it wrong....










What a hack. My Ballad specifies no fewer than seven headsails (not including spinnaker) in a full IOR quiver. Hooray for changing gears! IF you want to live on the foredeck, and IF you don't mind sacrificing all your food stowage for sailbags. No thanks.

Most sailors will spend less than 40% of their time hard on the wind. Reaching or running, perfect sail trim/shape is not as critical to performance, and a partly furled genoa or slightly over-trimmed main is unlikely to make measurable difference in the daily miles of a heavily-laden, displacement keelboat. What _will_ make a difference is a balanced sailplan that keeps the boat moving well with a comfortable motion, & that you can ignore for an hour at a time while you navigate, inspect the systems for wear or chafe, keep yourself rested and fed and hydrated, watch for container ships, etc. A thirty day shorthanded passage is not a three hour crewed race, and if you spend your entire watch tweaking genoa cars back and forth 1", _you aren't doing something more important_.


----------



## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

One good piece of advice given me was to try changing only one sail control at a time and observe the effect carefully. I.e., don't rush around changing everything randomly and hope it somehow works.

Multi, the anecdote about the boat starting a race being pushed backward at the start line being "overtaken" because of current was funny. But if the current is foul, it'll probably be foul for all of the boats in a race. Also, it may not be too hard for the overtaking boats to become boats overlapped to leeward and acquire right of way, albeit perhaps of the "limited" variety.

And, outside of the situation with adverse current, trying to go astern deliberately in more normal starting conditions would not likely pass muster in a race run under the Racing Rules of Sailing, given that it is anticipated in the rules:
RRS 2013-2016, Part 2 When Boats Meet, RRS 22 Starting Errors; Taking Penalties; Moving Astern, 22.3 "A boat moving astern through the water by backing a sail shall keep 
clear of one that is not. "


----------



## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

One other thought: 
Someone can be a reasonably competent sailor without having to have world or Olympic-gold champion sail trimming skills, absolute electronic gizmo wizardry, never-failing anchoring technique, absolutely pinpoint accurate celestial skills, total competence in every phase and sub-specialty of boat and boatyard work, canvaswork and sailmaking skills to put to shame the most advanced sail lofts, typhoon-proof heavy weather mastery, more seamanship per little finger than any ten master chief bo'suns have entire, the ability to instantly tie any knot, hitch, or splice while unconscious in the dark in a storm and hanging upside down from a yardarm, and the lordliness to piss into the mightiest winds without wetting oneself or falling overboard. 

You don't have to be Sailing God to be a reasonably competent sailor. Getting 95% efficiency out of your boat is probably perfectly fine for most situations and far better than many can do. 

And yeah, there can be a difference between feeling fast and being fast. 

The smart people have even invented gizmos that can tell you how fast your boat is going. Which is really nice if your boat can go fast in the right direction. And sometimes, the gizmos can even help with that. Amazing!


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> I used to sail out of berkeley for a year or so and man! nothing like weekend racing to get oherwise normal people all riled up and crazy...
> 
> hardcore is an understatement


I have a good friend who raced on a boat that took a lot of silver for a little while. He finally got off after having a heart to heart with the skipper where he basically said, that if he got cursed at one more time, they were going to find out who could beat up who in a fight.

He said it was the one experience that almost ruined sailing for him forever.

I've heard a version of that story repeated by different people numerous times.

Another friend of mine is almost a professional sailboat racer. He keeps asking me to go out with him on a race and I keep telling him, "I like you right now. Let's stop while we are ahead."


----------



## Nostrodamus (Mar 21, 2013)

I never have a go at anyone else apart from myself on our boat. If someone does something wrong it is my fault for not explaining properly.

I often ask myself for a fight but the other half of me is a coward.


----------



## Multihullgirl (Dec 2, 2010)

rgscpat said:


> Multi, the anecdote about the boat starting a race being pushed backward at the start line being "overtaken" because of current was funny.


I didn't mention current at all, go reread my post. Smyth backed the boat quite deliberately. This is some time ago and the rules have changed since then, possibly because of that very incident.


----------



## Multihullgirl (Dec 2, 2010)

MarkSF said:


> I think what is happening is that you are going fast enough to create significant apparent wind shift. On my sluggish keelboat, you don't tend to see telltales flying going downwind, on anything from broad reach downwards.


You should at least see the inside tales flowing, and yes if you can make enough apparent, see the outer tales flow, too


----------



## Multihullgirl (Dec 2, 2010)

Group9 said:


> I have a good friend who raced on a boat that took a lot of silver for a little while. He finally got off after having a heart to heart with the skipper where he basically said, that if he got cursed at one more time, they were going to find out who could beat up who in a fight.


When I was first dinghy racing, I barked at my best friend, who was crewing for me. She gave me the same lecture.

I took it to heart, and now my mantra is: "Whatever happens on the boat is the SKIPPER'S fault. Even if the crew does screw up, it is still the SKIPPER'S fault, because the SKIPPER should have anticipated that and taken action in accordance."

I've crewed on lots of boats for many years, now. One thing has come out of that in regards skippers, and that is: the fastest skippers are also the quietest ones. Partially I suppose that's because they can choose the best crew, or have a long-term crew, but it's also because these good skippers are just calmer.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Multi-

You're spot on. This is a fact that recreational sailors and boaters are reluctant to accept, especially in modern times where boats are treated like automobiles, and people try to apply land-based laws to waterborne events.

No matter what happens, it's the skipper's responsibility. It doesn't matter if something occurs that is totally unanticipated or unanticipatable. Simply by virtue of owning and operating the vessel, the skipper is responsible.

I've had crew make stupid decisions, break gear, or behave badly. For a few seconds, I experienced anger and silently began to assign blame, but very shortly, I know who is ultimately responsible-  Me.

That's just the way it is, and any skipper who refuses to accept that, needs to sell their boat and get off the water.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

thats if they race...plenty of grudgy old farts or young hot shots that act the same while cruising too

personally I cant stand it and its part of the reason I never really took on racing...I preffered to cruise and did so at a young age instead...

its a shame no matter how you slice the pie...


----------



## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

I've race thousands of races on my own boats or with others. I don't yell and I won't sail with someone who does. If things go pear shape it's lack of practice, or lack of anticipation or a host of other things. It does no good to yell at someone or be yelled at. 

If someone wants to race their boat make time for practice, make it fun for the crew, and keep calm, this is our hobby not our vocation. 

I consider racing to be a great way to learn boat handling, sail trim, rules of the road, navigation and build confidence aboard a boat. I watch sailors struggling to pick up a mooring and know they've never raced, the boat handling skills are missing, the ability to put a boat on a mark have never been honed.


----------



## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

I flag, or an I flag and a Z flag or the infamous black flag...............



Multihullgirl said:


> I didn't mention current at all, go reread my post. Smyth backed the boat quite deliberately. This is some time ago and the rules have changed since then, possibly because of that very incident.


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Folks have mentioned the main reason I prefer ocean racing to buoy racing. I will sail for the joy of sailing. I sail anything they let me anywhere but I want to sail my boat well. When ocean racing your life depends on other crew and you know you're going to be stuck with them for days and days so you better have a good attitude. Never yell, never insult, never say no when asked to do a task ( OK to ask best way to do it), listen well because they are probably more experienced and better sailors than you even if you own the boat. It's amazing how after the start folks just settle down and work together to get it done in those races. In that setting I've learned a whole bunch.
You can learn those same skills passage making if you don't let your ego get in the way.
Yes, small boats react quickly to changes so its easier to see what those changes do. Yes, buoy racing gives you an outside objective measure of how you are doing. But neither teaches you the skill set for what you want to do which is to cruise your boat from here to there. When riding motorcycles in a group ride they say you need "to ride your own ride" to be safe. I think the same applies to sailboats.


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Also alluded to is how modern boats and rigs make it harder to learn to sail.
Fully batten mains are harder to read.
Head sails on furlers are less sensitive to halyard tension especially if partially furled.
Sight lines suck.
Boats are so much stiffer so feedback from heel is less. Hull design makes for a faster boat with less parasitic drag so poorly set sails may not make you much slower. And there are bunches and bunches of spaghetti. Instead of first learning the basics of controlling the angle of attack and tension on the three corners first you can now manipulate the middle of the main ( backstay) or the twist or other features so you can really confuse your self quickly.


----------



## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

"Today’s weather forecast sent to Rimas at 1511 UTC (0511HAST / 0711PDT) via satellite, 600 miles out in the north Pacific:
Thursday: 0800PDT (1600UTC) WIND=NE at 15kts - 25kts over next 24hrs with SQUALLS and RAIN. SWELL=NW at 3m REMAINING. STAY on PORT TACK! SW GALES MONDAY."

as rimas is trying his damnest to go uphill in a gale against his chosen point of sail, and the current is north to south at a decent clip, he is actually not doing too badly just going backwards.. he should be also southing with currents...he is fighting a hard to win fight. i wish him all the best of good fortune. 
pnw storms are similar to hurricanes but COLD and not quite as much wind...can be very large in diameter. ...some winds just under 100 mph occasionally.he is doing great. 
lets give him some support.


----------



## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

Nostrodamus said:


> So we do our best to set the sails but more often than not they could be more efficient but knowing how to make them is an art form many including myself never fully learn or understand.


I question that many sailors do their best.

As a verteren windsurfer (where efficient sail trim may make the difference between sailing and swimming home), I'm shocked at how many people I sail (boats) with set the sails and forget them.

I often laugh when I think of a guy who sails a Folkboat and has been sailing longer than I have. He was staring at the speed on his GPS, and adjusting the course to maximum speed. His Main looked like hell, and the headsail was flapping about, screaming TRIM ME, TRIM ME!. However, he just stared at that GPS. I couldn't believe my eyes. I made a few suggestions which he ignored.

I think the juxtaposition of sailing a old school Folkboat, yet relying on technology to that extent is interesting as well, but that's another thread, and maybe another forum (possibly one dealing with Psychology?).

Anyway, with the exception of racing boats, I think many sails go under attended. I also think a balanced boat should sail equally well on either tack, regardless of hemisphere.:laugher If yours doesn't, check the rigging, hull and balance. Given existing conditions, Port and Starboard often feel (and are) different. However, all things being equal (which they seldom are in sailing) the boat should perform the same on either tack (IMHO).


----------



## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Shockwave said:


> I've race thousands of races on my own boats or with others. I don't yell and I won't sail with someone who does.


Same here. In fact, I'm a little embarrassed to tell this story, because I think I over-reacted and behaved badly, but I will anyway...

Sailed in a race once with a guy I had never sailed with before. This was a two-person dinghy race. Realized pretty quickly that he was way too high-strung for my tastes. Tried to make him realize that constantly yelling at me wasn't helping. About the third or fourth time he swore at me, I said, "That's it! Sail the damn boat yourself!" And I hopped overboard and swam the 1/4 mile or so to the beach.

I was at the marina, waiting to give as good as I got when he finally got back, but better sense took hold of me. Like I said, I think I probably over-reacted a bit, but the guy WAS just a complete jerk. Anyway, I decided to leave before he came in--go home, calm down, forget about it.

Saw him a couple of times after that, but we never spoke another word. I did realize, though, why it was that he seemed to be cruising the docks shortly before every race, trying to find someone to be his crew. One time with him was pretty much enough for anybody. And it wasn't long before he moved on somewhere else.

Anyway, those who feel the need to yell and curse to make their point... Well, I don't know exactly what their problem is--ego, control issues, whatever--but I know that I will choose not to be around them whenever that is an option.


----------



## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

I highly commend Sail Trim and Rig Tuning: A Captain's Quick Guide (Captain's Quick Guides) by Bill Gladstone (Jul 15, 2005). I have six books on sail trim. Without doubt this 14 panel reference yields the best bung for the buck


----------



## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

I have just transited the Panama Canal and in the last few weeks I have met sailors from over 100 boats who have proven to be excellent sailors that have sailed the Atlantic, Pacific or got a boat from the US to Panama.

I would predict that they all are good sailors who trim their sails well, perhaps not as well as racers but they also sailed thousands of miles without breaking too many things.

I have lots of friends with thousands of miles under the keel, generally I prefer cruisers as crew because racers do crazy things like speeding up the boat so that they can arrive in poorly charted anchorages in the dark.

Phil


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

yorksailor how was your transit? havent transisted in 10 years and would love some current info if possible thanks!


----------



## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

Transit was fine and very professional...just as 99% of the sailors I meet are professional. But then I meet people tens of thousands of miles from their home port. I know a 10 yr-old-girl with 20,000 sea miles under her keel.

Total cost for a 55 ft was almost $2,500...$1,700 fee and then the agent and beer for the crew were extra.

Phil


----------

