# Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hello

I am sure they questions have all been asked before at some point, pardon me for asking them yet again. Then again thats what places like this are for, yes? I have been reading over the site the last few days and still have some questions.

About me:

I have been on, around and operating boats all my life. Fishing boats, race boats, ski boats, etc. I have been out on the sea untold numbers of times. Back and forth across the Columbia river bar and Tillamook Bay bar more times than i can count. Been on seas incredibly rough and potentially dangerous and seas so calm one would think they were on a lake. My father has been an avid fisherman all his life and imparted that to me. 

I have a distinct lack of experience with sailboats though. Of course my fascination with them is greatest. I have been out on a sailboat on two occasions. One was just a motoring, the other a great day sailing on a Greek vacation. On that occasion the Captain was one of those who liked his passengers to learn the skills and do the majority of boat operations away from the dock. In other words he spent a lot of time napping. It was enough to spend the day listening to the sounds of the sails flapping and rigging moving about. It was a great experience even though is was only a day on the water with light winds. I need more of it, it only served to increase my long obsession with sailboats.

So, here i sit, very late 30s looking at middle age approaching and wanting something different and a sailing life seems perfect. Obviously it isnt always beautiful beach and sunny days. So, i spend my idle time wondering, dreaming and going to boat shows thinking about possibilities.

I also am fortunate in that i am in a position to be recieving an inheritance of a substantial amount. An amount that will allow me to purchase a very nice boat to live this kind of life and still have more than enough to fund continued adventures for years. If not extravagant, certainly comfortable.

My plan thus far, buy a smallish(20-25) boat to get some personal experience on after i take a few classes. After a few years have passed, i will be ready to move up and the financial aspect of things will be taken care of.

So as for my questions to all of you with the experience. Lets start with sailing itself.

The idea blue water long distance sailing really appeals to me, but the idea of getting caught in a really bad storm hundreds of miles from land terrifies me to no end. How do you all deal with this possiblity? Dont you worry your boat will come apart or go down? 

I imagine that lure of such a passage overcomes the fears eventually as one wants to see more than lakes, river or coastal sailing.

Boats

The impression i get from reading here is that boats such as Hunters and Beneteaus are not held in high regard. That surprises me as they seem to be great selling boats. Is it that they are only ideally suited for sticking close to your base of operations? Kinda hard to imagine after spending 300k on the low end for a boat.

What is it that makes some of you regard them this way? Is it that a lot fo their owners use them for display purposes and putting around a bay?

Conversely, Valiants are held in high regard. What do they do that is so much different? What about Oyster or Hylas? Do they have what it takes?

All of the previously mentioned boats are some that when i first started researching this possible endeavor were all contenders as a craft i would purchase. 

I am married but my wife doesnt share my passion for this and is uncomfortable on the water. So, i want a boat that i can comfortably single hand, even if i manage to coax her into joining my crew. I invision preferring something in the mid 40 foot range. Is this unrealistic? Just how much boat is too much for one person and is there a preferred size range for making blue water passages?

I am certain that proper knowledge, skill, preparedness and supplies make all the difference. That much seems obvious.

Any general knowledge that you have accumulated from the years sailing would be great. Personal perspectives and cautions greatly desired.

Thanks for any info.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Some sailors never leave sight of land... others can't wait to leave the shores behind. While storms at sea may be dangerous, good planning and common sense can minimize your risk of encountering a truely serious storm. Weather routing is part of the skills you will need to learn if you're going to become a bluewater sailor.

If you don't have confidence in your skills and your boat, you have no business being out of sight of land.

Beneteaus and Hunters are really boatshow boats for the most part... many of them are geared towards people who want to have a boat, but aren't seriously planning on making bluewater passages on them. They are geared towards large living spaces, great accomodations, and creature comforts, more than they are towards making long passages. The quality of their boats has suffered due to past incidents, but some say that their quality has improved significantly in recent years.

If your goal is truly to go sailing, you don't need to have an Oyster, Hylas, Hallberg Rassy, or a Moody to do so. While Valiants, Oysters, and Hylas are very well regarded, they're also generally larger, much more expensive, and more difficult to handle short-handed.

There are many affordable boats that will allow you to go bluewater sailing like, the Alberg 30, the Southern Cross 31, the Allied Seawind 32, and others, at a far more reasonable cost than the brands you've mentioned.

A good book to read is John Vigor's 20 Small sailboats to Take you Anywhere.

One other thing to remember is that the costs associated with a boat, after purchase, are proportional to the size of the boat. The bigger the boat, the more the maintenance, gear repair/replacement, mooring, dock, storage and haulout fees will be.

One excellent book to get read is Changing Course. Get this book and read it... read it thouroughly and then give it to your wife. It may help her decide to go with you...which is far preferable to not doing so IMHO.


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## JagsBch (Jan 19, 2007)

Hey Dog can you tell me more about weather routing?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Jags-

If you want to know more about weather routing, you should probably start a separate thread about it rather than hijacking this one.


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## Jotun (May 4, 2006)

Vans,
You say you'd like to start small to learn the skills. A very good idea. Consider something like a Catalina 22 or 25. As a used boat, they are plentiful and inexpensive. Spend a year or two with it and then move up. You won't blow a wad of cash and you'll enjoy the experience.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

After that step up to a costal cruiser, sail for a while than make your decision as to wether or not you want to go across the ocean.

The boats you mention have there nich in the market. We have discussed this time and time again. Would I sail my boat in Blue Water? No. But for our purpose, she fits the bill.


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## Gary M (May 9, 2006)

Vans in my opinion you should be looking at least a 27 foot boat. They are really not much harder to learn on or single hand than a 22 footer and have many advantages. 

You will have some accommodations for over nighting or even a week or two. The boat will be more stable, less prone to heeling, at least suddenly so your wife will be happier. 

You will likely have an inboard which is much nicer and can keep your batteries charged. 

I would not be too concerned at this point about what is a capable offshore boat. Since I started on this board about a year ago it just amazes me how many new sailors ask about this. "where can I take lessons and what boat should I buy to sail around the world next year." A bit a of an exaggeration but not much. 

Have fun, you have lots of boating experience so it should come easy. If you can, find someone to race with, great learning opportunity.

Gary


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Though not a necessity, and certainly many start out big, by buying a smaller boat to familarize yourself with sailing, you'll not only have an easier learning curve, but learn something about what you want in a larger boat.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Vans,

Nice little write-up. I wonder if we all don't start out that way?? Same thoughts, perceptions, etc.

If you have followed this forum at all, you will know that boat selection is a VERY biased and debated subject... almost as much as ground tackle and electrical techniques.

I typically help work the boat show for Catalina, but I am in NO way connected to them. I do it for fun and to help point people on... and because I enjoy talking to people like you. Some people I point to a Catalina, others I will point to other boats. I am not an expert, but have been there a bit. That being said, let me respond:

There is NOTHING wrong with a Catalina, Beneteau, or Hunter. They do have their place. They have that thing that they were made for and good at, and they have that thing that they were not made for and are not good at. If you primarily are going to limit your offshore work to 3 days (maybe a little more, depending on the boat)... but will primarily be going from island to island... in my opinion, THEY ARE THE BEST BOAT. Better than a Valiant or several of the others mentioned. They are big and fat and roomy. The term floating condo is not far from the truth. But this is NOT a bad thing. This is how 99.99999999999999999% of people ACTUALLY USE their boat. I have been on MANY Valiants and other blue water boats. They are small and tight by design. 5 days at sea with pounding waves will really play havoc on coastal cruiser (Catalina, Hunter, Beneteau, IP), but not (hopefully) a good bluewater boat. But when you drop that anchor... well, the Catalina is SURE going to be a LOT more comforable than that tiny little Valiant 50. Rememer one of the few truths of cruising, if that is in fact what you will be doing: 99% of your time is anchored, 1% is going. Now, where is that 'going'... that is what you have to answer.

Everyone dreams of sailing the great barrier reef, blue skys offshore, the sun setting over the Red Sea... but the reality is that most people never do it (even the ones that own the boats that can). There are too many reasons for this to intelligently discuss here, but in my opinion (knowing many of these people), it is because:

1) They found the islands and the things on this hemisphere more beautiful than expected and more than a person could see in a lifetime. Why leave it?

2) Offshore can be really ugly... and the enamour of it wears off after the first 24-48 hours. It is not 2 or 3 or 4 days to Australia or Hawaii... try a couple of weeks or longer at sea. Once you are about 100-200 miles off the west coast, you are out of sight of VHF and any timely rescues (if any at all) and any communications (without SSB/HAM or Sat Phone). You are on your own with no place to duck and you WILL weather whatever nature throws at you... including TD, TS, and Hurricanes (God Forbid, but it does happen). This might not sound so bad sitting in your chair and reading this... but when you are faced with mountainous seas and no one to help... well, that changes your perception.

3) Their boats are uncomfortable. You are just going to have to go aboard a V50 to understand what I am talking about. My Catalina 400 is bigger than a V50 in comfort and space down below. PS, I am a fan of Valiant's... do not take this the wrong way. I know the people there and have nothing but respect for them, their boats, and their service. If I was going to do a circum or really long offshore, it would be at the top of my list. And they really are not that expensive (compared to some others).

Let me ask you a question: Does Lexus make a better product than Ford? I bet you just answered yes. Now, let me qualify that question: If you own a farm and need to pull a trailer, does Lexus make a better product that Ford? Well, maybe, but no way in Hell you would take a Lexus over a F350. Get the point?

I know you have read some threads about people putting down the production boats (especially Hunter) and some of that IS deserved, and some of that is NOT. Valiant's are made better than Hunters, but it would NOT be my choice if I was going to be island hopping. If I had to choose between Hunter and Valiant, even if they were the same price, I would take a Hunter every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

You are new at sailing and have probably not done much offshore work. Go buy a production boat (coastal cruiser) of your choice and hit everything you can in this hemisphere. They will be comfortable and you will learn a lot. Your wife will like the space and how much she can spread out like she was at home. If you ever become so bored that there is nothing left on this hemisphere that interests you, go trade your boat in on a Hylas or Valiant and push off from there. Or better yet, go pay Dockwise to ship your boat to Australia, save a few hundred grand, and avoid getting the crap beat out of you with three weeks at sea.

Just my opinions.

- CD


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

Well stated, Cruisingdad. I only cruise the Bahamas. I have met literally hundreds of boats over the years whose owners bought them because they started out dreaming of cruising the world. The majority of them never got further than the Bahamas. A couple we knew well over the last three years bought a Pacific Seacraft 37 new. They cruised three seasons in the Bahamas and then had to sell the boat, running low on chips. The boat wasn't the right choice, too expensive for them and too small (interior volume), also davits didn't work so they had to tow or haul the dink aboard all the time. It's the old "horses for courses".


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Thanks Vasco.

It's too bad too, because PS and Valaint are AWESOME boats. The wrong boat choice kills (figuratively) more sailors as cruising is no fun than anything else I would bet. Catalina is not my favorite boat, as many of you know. It is not the safest boat. But let me tell you something, for a guy that loves cruising with his two young boys, two dogs, and a wife he wants to keep aboard, it is AWESOME!!... and... I could NOT make ANY PS or Valiant work. 

Now my Hylas 54 or Mason... well, that is another story (and a different checkbook)!!!

Thanks again Vasco.

- CD


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

CD...great post. Vans...welcome! The only things I would add to CD's post are the practical ones. You are in the northwest...that means going anywhere exotic requires a blue water boat...even down to Mexico. That upside down catamaran on your coast a month or so again shows how rough it can be out there. Alternatively, you can buy a smaller boat up there and learn to sail and enjoy the cruising grounds north of you in the Puget Sound and San Juans. That is where I would focus your initial efforts as most of us would kill to be able to cruise a bit up there! And with currents and wind and weather that are often less than benign, you will get some good practice before heading off shore. My own advice would be to get something in the 30ft. range to start...something blue water capable rather than the Hunter type boats. Since your wife will NOT be joining you, you will find a traditional 30 footer snug and comfortable and MORE easily handled (set up properly) by one than a lighter production boat...and you will have a sea kindly motion that will keep you comfortable on passage.

Once you've gotten some miles under that keel...you'll know exactly what you want in a bigger boat OR if you really WANT a bigger boat as a blue water 30' boat may just be all you need. If I was getting a blue water boat to single hand around the world and money were NOT an issue...I would get one of these:
http://www.robinhoodyachts.com/core...re/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp&boat_id=1585480








But there are lots of boats that will do the job. 
A boat over 40 ft. is probably not a good idea for single handing...otherwise Hylas and Oyster are certainly excellent passage makers.


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## canoeman256 (Aug 30, 2006)

I agree with most everything stated above. I have some of the same cruising aspirations (Bermuda, Bahamas, FL Keys, Mexico, etc.) but I don't have the experience yet. In order to remedy that, I bought a Catalina 22. I figure that I get some sailing experience in it, close quarters and all, and then move up. Anything will have more room down below than a C22. Plus, I'm having a blast while I learn. The whole point is to get out there and sail, right?

Canoeman256
C22
s/v Half Fast
Alabama


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Always enjoy reading Cam's advice and typically agree. He is very experienced and you should listen to what he says.

I will add that Oregon is often not very kind in a storm. There are not a lot of places to duck. I HAVE sailed the Pacific, but NOT Oregon... so this is based on what I have been told. Watch you weather out there pretty closely. I don't care if you are on a V50, when it gets bad out there, it gets really bad. However, the larger Catalinas run all over those coasts with more trips up and down them than I could even begin to relay. Even the finest boats and most offshore capable boats can go down on that coast with poor judgement. I would put more emphasis on the Captain (yourself) than the boat. Get a big fat comfortbale boat the wife likes so you don't sail by yourself. All boats should be singled (in my often contested opinion). 

- CD

Again, I personally put a lot of credibility on anything Cam says, but I would personally not be concerened about a Catalina in those waters if you are careful.

PS Look at a Catalina 36.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

CD...I would be concerned about he smaller Catalinas offshore *there* but the main thing is he is single handing and doesn't need the room a Catalina provides...so why not get a blue water vessel? My thought was that initially he should buy and store up in Washington and cruise out of there rather than attempt the Oregon River bars and coast before he is ready. The Oregon rivers are not much of a cruising ground but you can learn to sail on them...but then there's not much to do!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I definitely see your point, Cam.


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## CaptKermie (Nov 24, 2006)

Camaraderie wrote:
_"My thought was that initially he should buy and store up in Washington and cruise out of there rather than attempt the Oregon River bars and coast before he is ready."_
Very good idea!
I would also add that you should not be so quick to dismiss your wifes participation. Get a boat with an interior she likes and you have won half the battle to winning her over. You may not enjoy sailing by yourself as much as you might enjoy it with your wife, if you can show her how to enjoy it. Just make sure it is a wife freindly boat, (focus on the interior). If you can find ways to get her to take ownership through interior design she will be a more willing crew.
You don't need a bluewater cruiser for the Puget Sound & San Juans, a production coastal cruiser with creature comforts is the way to go here, and it will take you many many sailing seasons to see it all.
If your wife is a powder puff be sure to stay at marinas and harbours that have shopping, restaurants and sight seeing to pique her interest more.


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## marinesniper (Aug 2, 2006)

*My thoughts..*

Hello,

I personally would buy a used boat that is in need of some upgrades or maintanance....I say this because when I bought mine I thought that there was nothing wrong with it and I sooned I was wrong. I have been in every part of my boat cleaning this, fixing that (not cheap), but invaluble experience.

I am confortable now fixing engine problems (replaced water pump, fuel injector, injectors..etc..), electrical problems (new battery, new LED lights inside), changing shrouds, chainplates etc...

I think this is an important part that must be learned prior to sailing in the great BLUE...

I say this without BLUE water experience...the farthest I have been is Miami to Key West and back...!

later...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks a lot for the great replies, especially yours CD and Cam.

This helps a lot in giving me an idea of what i am after. Pacific Seacraft was mentioned. I went through one at the boat show two weekends ago and spent some time talking to the sales rep. I was surprised that that boat would do a circumnavigation. It certainly was cramped and tiny inside compared to the Hunters and Beneteaus i had just went though. I know if i ever hope to coax her into this plan it will require some space in the boat.

I guess this begs the question, just what qualifies a boat as a coastal cruiser and where is the line that separates blue water cruising from coastal.

Would coastal cruising here in Oregon with its unruly weather be such a different ball game that is requires a different type boat than say the Virginia to Florida coastal runs i have been reading about? Even if one stayed close to the coast would a run up the coast to the San Juans or down the the coastline to southern CA or even to the Panama canal for a run into the Gulf of Mexico be too much for a Hunter or Beneteau type boat? 

Ive seen some rough seas and the thought of many days on them in a boat that is of questionable capabilities sends chills down my spine. Even if it is only a couple miles off the beach. 

I had ideas of spending some days traveling up and down the Columbia to get my feet wet with overnight trips. Granted, the way the Gorge works it will be a chore heading up river.

Thanks again for the discussion.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Vans...While I've visited the Oregon coast but never sailed there, I've read enough as well I think to offer some opinions but others with actual experience can feel free to correct me. 
The Oregon coast is perhaps the most hostile place for a sailboat in the entire country. There are no safe harbors to put into and the river bars are so treacherous when the weather kicks up that they are the stuff of legend. It is considered the roughest and most prestigious duty in the Coast Guard. 
Like anyplace else...the weather can be fine and clam and you can take a day sailor out....but in my opinion it is no place for a recreational sailor in a production sailboat that does not have a LOT of experience and an excellent understanding of the weather windows and tides. 
There are many other threads here which you can search on on the differences between a blue water boat and a production coastal cruiser but the hulls are sturdier and stiffer, the fittings and fixtures are designed to stand up to 24x7 pounding from the seas, and the boat moves THROUGH the heavy seas rather than slapping and dropping and shaking every bone in your body. I like the Hummer vs. a Caddy analogy since it does not disparage either design but indicates a purpose driven design. 
Again...if your wife is not involved, I advise getting a sea boat and sailing out of the Puget sound until you are ready for the "desolate" coast which is far different than anything we have here in the East!


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Vans - I just bought a boat and am in a similar position to you. I have sailing experience, but it is limited, especially compared to the other guys on this thread. I looked at all kinds of blue water boats, they make my mouth water! I love a well built boat that doesn't look like a floating condo. But, it would have been the wrong boat for me at this point. I didn't realize it at the time, but comfort is really important at this point in my sailing career. Pick a boat that you will be comfortable on and like to spend time on. I spend a lot of time on her just fixing little things and puttsing around, learning how things work, what is connected to what. I bought 34' and am glad I didn't go bigger, it would be too much for one. My girlfriend and I are a little cramped sometimes, but we compromised and gave up a little comfort for a better built boat. I would not be comfortable in her in the open ocean, although I think she would do alright, but I would feel absolutely safe up and down the west coast. And for now, thats all we plan to do. Look at it like going to a really good restaurant, your eyes will be bigger than your stomach. Cam and CD and lots of others here have given me lots of priceless info, and it is usually right on the mark.


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## sanctuarysam (Sep 16, 2006)

although you can find plenty of silly posts between many of us here, when it gets down to it, if people are looking for credible advice from folks that have sailed in all sorts of conditions, on about every boat out there, this is the place.
i am going to side w/ the 28-30 foot crowd here. granted, i am partial to sabres (no secret there), and i think a 28' will give you a solid boat large enough to feel safe on, have enough space that said spousal unit might actually enjoy being aboard, yet still be comfortable to go off for a weekend.
i think a 22-25' boat can get "very small" quickly, for a novice sailor when the weather turns to worms. 
after a couple of years learning the basics on a sabre 28...hey go for a hylas,hinckley or a swan...(and if we are talking a big inheritance might as well go whole hog).
as you hone your skills (we all continue to learn)..you'll buy a larger boat..develop bigger boat envy, want even a bigger boat..etc.
the next thing ya know..you'll be a moderator on here or have built a custom built 42' sloop.
the most important thing..., take some lessons and get out there and have fun.


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

Hmm. How about getting a 6-12' boat and learning to sail with the local kids or on a lake or wherever there is suitable water? Racing against them will teach you how to sail, as well as providing instant feedback on how you are doing. You might then try 20-30' or better local boaties are always looking for reliable crew who know the basics. 
Hopefully you will always respect the sea, but as you acquire knowledge and competence your fear will diminish.
Your wife may change her thinking when four things happen. 1. She sees you becoming competent. 2 She has some pleasant experiences. 3 She becomes confident and competent herself. 4. You don't talk of doing marathons when she knows very well you can't crawl and wisely she would not go round a bay with you on a Hobie.


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

Hey Vans,

Okay... I have to say Cam's warnings about the Oregon region are very accurate 

I live in Vancouver and have sailed off the coast near that area...

And, ... I have been in a HUNTER in rough water in that area, and let me tell you, it is some SCARY STUFF.

That boat is like a giant bobbing sphere with a mast and a sail. In 17 knot winds the boat's keel came out of the water when a gust hit the sails.

Also, most hunters do not have back-stays. (The thick steel lines that hold the mast when the boat us going down-wind)

I don't know about you guys, but that's scary stuff 

I've also sailed a chartered 38' Benetau in rough waters. 30 Knots of Wind and steep 3 meter(9 foot waves) in the Georgia Straight here. It handeled very well, but I don't think I'd take that around the world. There are many design flaws in it.

Check out:

www.shannonyachts.com

Those guys in my opinion make the best Blue water boats in the world. But also the most expensive ones. What's good is they have a whole section which tells you exactly what yo uwant to look for in a blue water boat, I recommend you read it.

There are very small details in a boat that make it 100% better for blue water than other boats.

Like

* Placement of the shrouds...(Do they get in the way on the foredeck and create a trip hazard?)

* Hand rails on the foredeck (many boats don't have these or have poorly placed hand rails and people have to hold on to the life-lines)

* Location of the water tank... (many boats like Benetaus and Hunters aren't made for Blue Water sailing, so the water tanks are placed out of the way to create more comfort space... This sets off the balance of the boat and sets off the displacement)

* A boat designed to reduce Fatigue. You asked why most Blue Water boats are more "tight" on the inside? One of the reasons is so that you don't have to struggle to move about when the water is rough. In a big "roomy" boat like a hunter, you will often be flying around everywhere when the boat starts swaying.

When the interior is designed well enough so you have easy things to hang on to, this makes a WORLD of a difference.

The most dangerous thing on the Ocean is when you're too tired to make correct decisions, and when you're struggling around the boat, this happens fast.

So this ia biggie. Same for the cockpit, some cockpit designs are much better at reducing crew fatigue.

* And finally, the right keel for Ocean passages. If you want your wife on there, get a boat with a big solid led keel. If you're in the Oregon region and you're planning on sailing south to Mexico then DEFINITELY get a big solid keel on your boat, makes you feel much safer, the boat won't keel over as much and if it ever comes out of the water your boat will pull itself upright.
(Unless giant wales have rammed your boat and you're taking on water  )

I agree with Cam that Oregon is one of the scariest places to sail 

That's my 2 cents, I'm still an amateur to sailing but I've sailed many rough days on the West coast, so I think it's good advice 

Kacper


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Sounds like you need to smile death in the face and then go sailing haha


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I like the idea of shipping your boat to Australia or what not, that is a long passage to make from California, and if you split the shipping price with a buddy or even two the price shouldn’t be too bad ! I


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

> Saasaan Wrote...
> I like the idea of shipping your boat to Australia or what not, that is a long passage to make from California, and if you split the shipping price with a buddy or even two the price shouldn't be too bad ! I


 That's really embarassing. That boat would be cursed for the rest of it's life. If you ever do that you don't deserve to own a boat 

Unless you're shipping a custom made 2 million dollar yacht designed for the Hobart race, that's just not acceptable!

Kacper


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

I think that if Vans wants to do some serious cruising, either coastal, bluewater or day he has to find a boat on which his wife will be happy. Singlehandling is a great way to learn but it's no way to live. IMHO, the number one thing you should look for in a boat is something your wife will be happy in and that may not be a sailboat, because without her you are not going far.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

EBS-

You know, that is a good point. 

I personally would have no problem taking a Catalina or Beneteau (depending on the model on both) off the coast out there. Many, many people do it - but they (and I) probably have a LOT more experience than you do. From what I understand, Cam is ABSOLUTELY right about the waters out there. I also believe it is hard to make a harbor there in a storm (if you find yourself in one) so you will have to weather it at sea (which is not neccessarily a bad thing... but that is another thread). Still, it all depends on the boat. 

I personally cannot imagine getting a boat my wife did not participate on... and LOVE! I think sailing would be come a drag in short order. If money is not a restricting factor, get a trawler. Nordhavn is TOP NOTCH (and one of my dream boats) and have done more circumnavigations that any other trawler I know of. They are the same people that made Mason's (the sailboats)... top notch yards, constrution, reputation, etc. I have met MANY of the people involved in their boats and have never been anything but impressed. It will give you a lot of living space and a very safe boat that will take the Oregon coast. Costs for a used one (46) start around the 500's. A new 50 is over a million and a 2 year wait. They are not cheap. ANother options would be Krogen. Argueably not as well built as the Nordhavn, but still a very tough boat and a little more of a comfortable liveaboard/cruiser.

If you want to stick with a sailboat (which I did), I see no problem in the mid 30's. You can learn to single a 35ish boat really easy. The hard part is just getting it in/out of the dock anyway. In general, the larger the boat, the more comfortable the ride and the easier it is to sail. My personal experience is that about mid 40's to low 50's, you really need a second hand... but this is more for docking than under way. Once your sails are set and you are "going", there is not much of a difference between a 30 footer and a 50 footer. With autopilot's, etc, you can do most of the stuff yourself without a big problem... especially if all the lines are led to the cockpit.

I have know some folks with a Tayana 37 up your way. Good, solid boat. THey weathered a storm off you coast on their way to SF and never batted an eye. Tayana's are relatively cheap... but again, the living accomodation is tight on them.

As far as your question about production boats making the gulf or islands or east coast, or whatever. Absolutely! Never a problem. That is really their design point... though some are less suited to it than others (depending on the model). Instead of beating up specific models on an open forum, you can PM me if that is your direction.

I would not be against Cam's advice on the blue water boat ASSUMING you have enough room and your wife is comfortable and enjoys it. Otherwise, I would really consider talking to people that live up that way and run the coast in a Catalina about it's positives and negatives in those waters.

The only thing you need to understand is that a blue water boat may be a "BIT" more forgiving in a storm than a coastal... but it is all still in the hands of the Captain that makes the difference. That is very important to understand. ANY sailor that has done much offshore on this site will tell you this: I would rather face a fierce storm in a hunter with an experienced captain and crew than a mild storm in a Valiant with an unexperienced captain and crew.

Get the captain knowledgeable and a good seaman. It might just save your life one day.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks for the continued info.

I am beginning to think that i would perhaps be happiest in the best quality boat even if it is only for light duty. I dont really see myself crossing oceans but trips down or up the coast are not out of the question. So, a good blue water boat used as a coastal and river cruiser soulds like a good plan.

Ive seen the Oregon coastal waters turn nasty fast and the last thing i want to be concerned with is the boat.

Any particular features that one should look for in such a boat? What brands are the stand outs and/or personal favs of forum members?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Vans-

From my original post... 



> There are many affordable boats that will allow you to go bluewater sailing like, the Alberg 30, the Southern Cross 31, the Allied Seawind 32, and others, at a far more reasonable cost than the brands you've mentioned.
> 
> A good book to read is John Vigor's 20 Small sailboats to Take you Anywhere.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

OK..new blue water boats in 35 foot range price no object:
Robinhood 36 (same as Cape dory 36 but new!)








Morris 34








Cabo Rico 36








Hans Christian 34










Shannon 39








Any one of these is capable of blue water cruising in style and comfort and doing serious damage to your wallet!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

If you don't have a lot of sailing experience, I think that the best thing you can do is find a used 14 to 18 foot daysailer and learn to race it. Get one that has a cunningham and a spinnaker and an adjustable backstay and a tiller so that you can really understand what happens when you make an adjustment to your rig. With a small, light boat underneath you, the result of any change is readily apparent, you literally learn to sail by the seat of your pants as you feel your boat lift under you and take flight like a live thing. And there are few things more satisfying than developing the confidence that comes from knowing what to do when the wind changes or the boat broaches unexpectedly. Learning on a larger boat is more difficult. You can't feel the water as easily through a wheel as you can through a tiller, and the boats are so heavy that they don't react to changes very fast. If you screw up in a Flying Junior - you're in the water, if you screw up on a Hinckley 40, you might spill someone's drink. If you start this way, you'll develop the skills that you need to safely sail a small boat through just about anything, and it won't seem so far-fetched that someone should head off to Polynesia in a Flicka (20 foot sloop). As far as the frequent derogatory remarks made about Hunters, Catalinas, Irwins, etc. go .... the fact is that the boats are not built as strongly as a lot of other brands. To be fair, they don't have to be, as most of them are never farther than a half-mile from the dock. The unfortunate thing is that most of the dealers who are selling these boats are not as honest about the structural integrity of the boats as they could be...not a big issue when you are selling a boat to a sail'r who's been around the jetty a few times, but not particularly ethical when you're selling a retirement vessel to a couple with bluewater aspirations. A special note about MacGregors however - these are not boats, they are toys. They have set a new low in quality standards and I am amazed that their firm has not been sued out of existence. Anyway - to repeat myself - doesn't really matter what you end up on - just get a boat and get on with it. If it's the wrong one you'll realise soon enough, and if it's the right one - well you'll probably trade it in anyway ...


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Van 
Just read the tread.

Three weeks on the ocean in a small yacht is not that hard I did it in 2000, sailed a Roberts 45 from Freemantle to Sydney. Big seas in the Great Southern Ocean they really seem big when they first arrive, then you sort of get into a rythem after a few more days their not that bad at all, you can trim the boat or set the course off a few points and get some comfort back, dont try cooking a roast, stick with staples. I tried a sponge cake 4" thick one side 1" the other. Thats another story.

With your lack of sailing try chartering with a skipper you'll be amased how much you will learn.

I've got thousands of sea miles under the belt and I must admit I get sea sick at the start of every long voyege normaly kicks in after 24Hrs can't eat much but you have to keep on going. get some sleep and one time you wake up feeling seedy but thats it no more calling for ralf.

one thing with being sea sick is when you think you cant hurl any more, you can.!!

You have some great boats in the US at good prices. Ive been doing some reserch as I am without boat at the moment, and considering many of yours at the moment one of the best buys might be an Endeavour 37 fits the bill for an ocean crossing, plenty of fuel and water tankedge and when in Australia perfect for day and coastal work should be an easy short or single hander.

Was looking towards the C 38, would do the crossing but short on tankadge and internal access to the important bits is poor most seemed heavely raced.

If you are positive you want to sail, 34 to 38 seem to give the best of both worlds with space, storage and cost.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Cam-

You must be slipping.. You forgot the Hallberg Rassy 342.










I would have posted the Nauticat 351, but it has a doghouse...


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Saildog

Whats your thoughts on the Endeavour 37 as an all round yacht


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

SimonV-

Not too familiar with the Endeavor 37. Haven't sailed one, haven't been on one... so I can't really say much. You might want to start a new thread instead of hijacking this one, since it will get you far better responses. JeffH probably can say a bit more about them...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Sailorman mentioned the MacGregors. I have to admit that i considered one of these as an entry level boat. Inexpensive, easy to trailer, seems easy to operate. Do others share sailorman's opinion on these?\

Thanks everyone on boat opinions, suggestions and information.

Can someone calm my fears about getting caught in a storm? Considering i have the most minimal of experience on a sailboat and zero in bad weather conditions, i have some , most likely wrong, preconceived ideas about it. I cant imagine that one keeps all the sails up as they would get torn to shreds and it seems it would make sailing a bit more dangerous.

I know while in bad seas in a power boat the engine is vital to keep one in proper position on the swells, especially while crossing the bar. Is the, what seems a smallish to me, engine on a sail boat used in such conditions?

I just finsihed reading the online book of the gentleman, from Oregon as it happens, who bought a small sailboat and sailed around the world for two years. http://vps.arachnoid.com/sailbook/index.html

He seemed to gloss over his experience in bad seas.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The boats not metioned yet that may be perfect for you right now are SE's and OP's (someone else's, other people's). Go to your local yacht club and sign up as crew. You will see a number of boats that you can decide are either right for you (or not) for sailing in that area. It'll give you some training others that know the local waters. You'll probably even get some rough weather experience. Who know's, it might even be a good way to get your wife hooked.


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

Re Fear of storms. You were probably afraid when as a child you first learned to ride a bike. When you could you got confidence. That is why some of us emphasise learning to sail, and building some experience before worrying too much about the boat buying.

Second some fear or anxiety is normal - most will have some before a passage or even a race. That disappears. I find that any new boat takes a bit of getting used to. Confidence grows after several trips.

Another factor is faith in the boat. When you see big waves mounting up behind you, then the stern lifts and you see the boat handles it, after a while you just accept it. The boat is ok you are ok. You learn to trust the boat. In the worst case you can take everything down go below and wait a day or two. 

There are storm handling technicques you can learn - in time.

My teacher said make your first long passage with someone experienced at it. "What this? Oh it's nothing." His competence and confidence is reassuring. Far better than people panicking and screaming at the wife because everyone is stressed out. "Pull what rope?" "That .. one" "No not that one, that ... one" "Pull your own .. rope"

One of my favourites was two elderly like late 70s long term women cruisers, who were asked how they handled storms. "We don't do storms" was the brilliant response.

That is a very good answer. You can watch the weather and plan and time your passages. Cruising - if you wait a day or a week so what?

We are not talking big teams of professional highly experienced sailors racing in the Southern Ocean, but ordinary people planning and equipped for safe comfortable passages in relatively benign waters.

When you have built the knowledge experience and skill, have the right boat and planning then your anxiety will dissipate because you know you are well founded. Your concern at the moment is reasonable, and normal.
In time your wife may come around when she sees the pleasures and has confidence.

To put it in perspective the biggest problem for most will not be storms but light airs and needing the skills to keep the boat going in them. Your area may however be more demanding.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Dawg....absolutely right...HR's are great boats. I also like the Njaads and the Contests from across the pond...but the current Euro rates make them real difficult to aspire to!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

BRAVO Cruisingdad (I'm standing)

I got onto this thread late, but you synthisized (sp) not only a good approach for a new sailor, but also probably the entire process most of us have gone through in boating. 

Thanks, you make this forum worthwhile.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Ian,

Thank you. That was very nice to say.

- CD


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Just my opinions.
> 
> - CD


 Coming in late to the discussion, but well said and more importantly, well reasoned.

Boats are like computers. People ask me, because I evince a familiarity with computers, "which honking great dual core, hyperdrive Star Trekish computer should I buy?"

I ask "what are you going to use it for?"

99% say "browsing, e-mail, DVDs, a little word processing".

I then recommend a cheap, off-lease late Pentium III or early Pentium IV. If they must buy new, I suggest the lightest model available with the best battery time and the biggest screen. Hard drive: unimportant. RAM: irrelevant. Processor: Forget about it.

ALL computers, laptop or otherwise, built since 2002 can handle ALL of the computing tasks that characterize most peoples' usage. So why buy an "offshore capable" PC, when a nice Hunter or Beneteau-logic PC will do, and won't break your shoulder, your vision or your budget?

I wouldn't take 90% of the boat show boats I see into a six-foot sea, but when I take my tank-like steel cutter into a six-foot sea, I usually notice the complete absence of anyone else except those J-Boat guys. Fair enough.

My old boat is a lake racer. Our "new" boat is an offshore passagemaker. I am time-sharing the old boat because after we have a few years of cruising, I'll sell the passagemaker with no regrets...unless I move to New Zealand or something!


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## jibjefe (Apr 23, 2011)

I agree with starting with a smaller type sailing boat. This will allow you to mingle with other people and get more ideas of a future bigger boat. I don't recommend jumping into anything big at first as it might overwhelm you and make you decide to back off from the sailing adventures that await you.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

4 year old thread


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## mdbee (May 2, 2007)

A blast from the past.

I hope some moderator doesn't go off on him. Chill baby, chill.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

mdbee said:


> A blast from the past.
> 
> I hope some moderator doesn't go off on him. Chill baby, chill.


Reminding someone that they have just resurrected an ancient thread is no sin, indeed replying to said thread will not consign you to purgatory either. Newcomers often read through ancient stuff and reply without realising what they are doing, a gentle reminder can be of use. I'm thinking TQA was in order.

OTOH, dumping on the poor unsuspecting noob from a great height is neither polite nor welcoming and actively discouraged. I doubt quite frankly that while moderators , particularly those of a fuzzy disposition, have been known to mutter inappropriate thoughts at times, we are not likely to dump on noobs who commit this minor infraction.


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## JoeDiver (Feb 2, 2011)

Does make you wonder about the OP...wonder whatever happened? Never came back and updated the thread...didn't get a boat? Just a whim dream and gone? Inheritance didn't go as planned? (they usually don't) Maybe by the comment about the wife not being into it and uncomfortable on the water, perhaps she squashed it?


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

Yes, it would be interesting to know how this worked out.


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