# 2011 Sun Odyssey 409



## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

European Yacht of the Year 2011: 

Damn, this is real tempting for $199k with reversible electric winches and solar panels standard. It is a real bargain. The modern design and manufacture process is really outdone the old boat. It appears to be much more ergonomic for us. I sailed and saw enough old boats, they may have a good line and sea comfort, but the day-to-day and minute to minute ergonomic sucks.

Has anyone seen this boat up close? Just wonder if their interior can hold up for 20 to 30 years of so? Added bonus, this boat will be made in U.S.


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

Where are they going to build it in the US?


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Vasco said:


> Where are they going to build it in the US?


In the Sailing Mag, they mentioned it will be built in Beneteau plant in SC. It appears that first batch of 409 was built in France.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

If you take care of the boat, it should last some 20 yrs. My 85 Jeanneau is still going after that amount of time. Granted when I bought the boat 5 or so yrs ago, while I do not want to say it was beat up it was not, but we have done a complete redo, ie cushions, varnish, liner on the hull and ceiling area's etc. If you used a boat alot, no matter the brand, even an Oyster, I would suspect many of the items I replaced, would need replacing on them too!

Otherwise, if the boat suits your needs, go for it, if you want a smaller unit, look at the 379, a semi pseudo replacement for the 36i at some point in time, altho Jeanneau says it is not a full replacement. Links to the 379 info
Sailboat Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 379 - Jeanneau Yard
Sun Odyssey 379

Marty


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

I am going to take a closer look of the 409 and 379. I think I like 409 better since the Head is bigger, I like the larger shower stall larger. I think the sea motion i will be better too. 

However the 379 has a cool option of dual rudder and centerboard which 409 doesn't.

It is interesting to note that both have hard chine and their keels are much further fore, but only have a 106 genoa. The jib track is very short and mounted on the coach roof. It looks better, but I am not sure if it function better. 

I will talk to the dealer to see what he knows.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Dawg,
You'll find both the 379 and 409 discussed in PCP's Interesting Boat Thread.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/62341-interesting-sailboats.html

Must say that I quite liked the 409.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

At the Seattle boat show earlier this year we were on a number of new Jeanneaus... of all of them (the 409 may have been the smallest) we liked it most, there were several DS models there too.

However, today walking along the 'creek' we noticed the local dealer has a rather large stock of Jeanneaus afloat (wonder if the manufacturer finances those inventories??) - anyway from 100 feet away the 409 loses some appeal.. a bit of a boxy profile....I have no problem with the chine, but the 4 in-hull ports are installed at different levels and that looks odd to me. In-hull windows are great from below and they make sense, but why doesn't anyone hide them in a stripe?










I know... I know... nitpicking!!!!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Faster said:


> At the Seattle boat show earlier this year we were on a number of new Jeanneaus... of all of them (the 409 may have been the smallest) we liked it most, there were several DS models there too.
> 
> However, today walking along the 'creek' we noticed the local dealer has a rather large stock of Jeanneaus afloat (wonder if the manufacturer finances those inventories??) - anyway from 100 feet away the 409 loses some appeal.. a bit of a boxy profile....I have no problem with the chine, but the 4 in-hull ports are installed at different levels and that looks odd to me. In-hull windows are great from below and they make sense, but why doesn't anyone hide them in a stripe?
> 
> ...


you old stick in the mud .... 

hey , at least they aren't vertical ...


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## bjung (Apr 8, 2009)

rockdawg, yes the 409 price is pretty good for a boat it's size. But we all know, you get what you pay for. Some of the feedback from people who have crawled all over the boat, wasn't as enthusiastic as the hype from europe will lead you to believe.

Below is a quote from Melnra, Miami Boat Show Thread
"Jeanneau 409 and 42DS - 
I spent considerable time on these boats. I had mention earlier I was going to do the delivery for the 409 but due to health reasons I was unable to join the crew. So the sailing characteristics are unknown to me personally. This was an upsetting defeat for me in not being able to sail these boats.
The new 409 I was excited to see due to all the hype in the all the sailing magazines. It is a gorgeous boat with good sheer, low freeboard and dynamite topsides. I will start this review topside and then go below. Starting at the bow of the boat the anchor set-up is good. A good deep locker than can be easily divided, with a hidden windlass. What kept this from being excellent was no cleat in the locker nor for safety reasons the tie off for the anchor rode was at the bottom of the anchor well and impossible to reach in an emergency. When I check the forward cleats for backing plates there were none. The non-skid topside was excellent with good room on the side decks to move forward. However, I felt the coach roof hand holds were hard to reach and inadequate. Furthermore they did not go completely forward. They are recessed into the coach roof to make for a clean un-obstructive deck but I felt they should be more accessible. The forward hatch to the V-berth is large. It is total Lexan without frame support. It is not a straight piece of plastic but with a curve face plate. While it looks pretty and lets in sunlight I can see that it will be easy to scratch. The rest of the topsides I cannot say enough about; well designed. The whole topsides forward of the cockpit is clutter free. All the lines are cover in a channel back to the cockpit. Standard Sheldon Mast for which I like. This boat had the new Harken Re-wind winches. Very cool piece of equipment. The cockpit was both comfortable and functional. Two nice lockers under the settees plus another on under the port helm seat. The one thing I loved on this boat was the Chart plotter was up high on a gimbal mount that I can read, program and see without bending over/sitting on the cockpit floor like on other models. The 409 had additional storage in aft cockpit floor for a life raft or dockside gear. With German sheeting back to cockpit, it is an easy boat to handle. Like the other critics of this boat, only one winch in the back that has to serve double duty for the jib and main sheets. The performance package adds a few things for which I think are important. One a bigger jib for sailing in light air and going downwind. Along with that comes additional sheeting track on the deck. Better running sheets, bigger winch, adjustable backstay, spinnaker set-up to name a few are the other options.
Here is what I don't like. The Lexan glass on the topsides. Both in the v-berth and aft berths hatches I can see getting scratched real easy and hard to replace down line. No dorads or ports. There is very poor ventilation for the tropics on this boat. The mid cabin hatches face aft. According to Jeanneau they had to do that to get the A class ocean rating. So getting fresh air in the salon area is next to impossible. One of my biggest pet peeves is the short lifelines. Just above the knee is not only to short but dangerous in any seas. Another thing I didn't care for was the single shroud attachment point. I am sure it is engineered to some level but it looked like it can come apart at a moment's notice. The rod comes down from the deck to a U-shape flange where the rod can rotate and move that was then attached to the stringers on the hull. I have seen smaller 20' boats with stronger support for the mast than this set-up. But like I said, I sure some French engineer will say it is strong enough for ocean sailing. 
Down below: I really like the layout of this boat. That is all I can say that is good about it. The styling while IKEA in nature seems to have taken over the boating industry and not my style, I can see others liking this type of design. What I found was it was only skin deep. When I took this boat apart I was hugely disappointed so much I had to walk away from the boat for awhile to collect myself. It seemed like it was all a facade. Minimum material used and the cheapest found. It felt like the whole interior was particle board with some veneer over it. Strings were used to hold open the doors, 1/8 plywood for the top coverings under the beds and settees, floor boards so badly made I wanted to scream. It was all shame because this could be a really great boat. 
The cabin layout for a 40' boat is great. The v-berth is big, with plenty of storage. The optional desk is real nice and functional. They used every space available for storage including places to put shoes. The aft berth is great also for guest. One of the things I really like is the storage room set-up on the port side. Reminds me of the Catalina 445 set-up but not as nice(40' vs. 45' makes a world of difference). The one head is large with a separate shower area. I felt storage here was lacking. The settee cushions in the salon were lacking in both material and cushion thickness. Not sure what they were thinking here. The new dining table is an engineering marvel. I really like this table and the way it unfolds into a bigger table or how it comes down to make up an additional bed. There is even a nice little storage unit for my favorite rum. 
The galley is a little small for a 40' boat. I have seen a lot better. One thing they could have done is a fold out table on the end, to give more workspace. The refrigerator is nice and big but lacking in any freezer space. One of the best things I like is the extra row of storage bins they added to this model along the hull wall. 
The engine access was good but Jeanneau didn't put any fuel filters in for the engine. You heard me right NO fuel filters. When I asked Jeanneau what is up with that, they said " with the boat selling all over the world, every region has their own unique fuel filters, so we don't put one on.!" WTF over and out! There was no automatic fire extinguisher like the other brands have. One has to asked where else did they cut corners. 
The rudder is composite frame with foam. Those that followed the Hunter story from the early 2000-2005 models knows that did not work out well for them. This rudder stock looked worse than what the Hunters had. When I asked them about how it is made, I was told they just roll up fiberglass like one does a newspaper. Since I used to work in Composite technologies for DuPont, I almost lost right there. So back off the boat for another beer, to regain myself. I never returned.
Melissa Renee"

The other Jeanneau story I find sort of hairraising is here:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/jeanneau/74360-jeanneau-42-ds-comissioning.html

This being said, I am still interrested in checking the boat out myself.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

tdw said:


> Dawg,
> You'll find both the 379 and 409 discussed in PCP's Interesting Boat Thread.
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/62341-interesting-sailboats.html
> ...


Yeap, Paulo did an excellent job indexing the boats discussed in "HIS" thread. . I beleive I have read them all.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

bjung said:


> rockdawg, yes the 409 price is pretty good for a boat it's size. But we all know, you get what you pay for. Some of the feedback from people who have crawled all over the boat, wasn't as enthusiastic as the hype from europe will lead you to believe.


Thanks for the useful citation. I need to read very critical review to make an informed decision.

Last night after 3 days sailing and get back to Annapolis, we stopped by the Jeanneau dealer to look at the boat. It was late, the office was closed by all the boats are in water. I took a closer look. I am happy with the new approach and design work, but many thing were put together for form over function.

I have made an appointment to see the broker. They also have a program that we can charter the boat before we commit. It will be wonderful if we can charter for two weeks for an off-shore trial. For all indication, I believe the 409 is made for coastal and bay sailing. My question is will she sail comfortably and take care herself like HR39, Sabre 40 or Caliber 40 LCR in the rough sea.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

If they were truly ONLY coastal and bay sailing, WHY does this boat have a european A rating? ie ocean rating to with stand seas to 10 meters, winds to force 10, which IIRC is at least 50+ knots? Granted it may not be the strongest boat in the open ocean rating class. BUT< it is still rated to do so. Just like the SO37 you are sailing currently, which by the way, MANY of them have done open ocean sailing, the 409 will probably do just fine.

You will also probably find the 409 will go faster by a reasonable clip over an HR, Sabre or caliber too. So less potential time in the open to deal with storm conditions. 

Then again, I have yet to get on a 409, I think there has only been one delivered here in Seattle, not sure if it is sold or still at the dealer, so it may not be as nice as the older versions like the SO37 etc. Gut tells me, taking a 409 off shore should not be an issue! Unless you want to go around cape horn...........now on a bad day you might have an issue with the 409! 

marty


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Depending on how hard chined the boat is, you will love it or hate it. Ours is a 'flatter' bottom than many boats, and almost all Catalinas except the new 445 (Which I really like). THe pros are that the boat should perform a lot better than the typical round bottom boat. We also found our boat to be more sure footed and sail flatter. Alltogether she is comfortable at sea. THe bad is if it is too hard chined, for a sailboat especially, when you get into choppy water or a large sea (for us about 10'), when she jumps off the waves, it sounds like a bass drum below. There are some boats with hard chimes that are so loud it has run off the owners. You can PM for the mfg I will not put it openly. 

I am not familiar with the 409. Have not seen her or sailed her. But I am curious how you build a 40' boat at $200k? Wow. The C400's new will run you well into the 200s with your final bill likely into the low 3's after you get everything you want on them. At least that is what a dealer told me. 

I would at least look at a Bene 40 and a C400 for comparrison. I like the Sabres too. But I don't think you will touch any of them in the 200k range... not realistically. 

Hope that helps. Good luck with the purchase.

Brian


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

blt2ski said:


> *If they were truly ONLY coastal and bay sailing, WHY does this boat have a european A rating? ie ocean rating to with stand seas to 10 meters, winds to force 10, which IIRC is at least 50+ knots?* Granted it may not be the strongest boat in the open ocean rating class. BUT< it is still rated to do so. Just like the SO37 you are sailing currently, which by the way, MANY of them have done open ocean sailing, the 409 will probably do just fine.
> 
> *You will also probably find the 409 will go faster by a reasonable clip over an HR, Sabre or caliber too. So less potential time in the open to deal with storm conditions. *
> 
> ...


Marty, I share your reasoning and am telling myself these are good reasons to purchase the new boat from the European manufacture. Unfortunately, from reading here on Sailnet, it seems that the European Rating means a little. I am desperately seeking the true. Yes, my current time share boat - SO37 is Rated A for 8 persons. With my limited storm sailing experience, I only encountered 6 ft sea with 30 kn wind, The Jeanneau pounded like crazy from each wave, when I was in the V-berth, it sounded like someone pounding with a sledgehammer and the boat was going to fall apart.

OTOH, I sailed in a Tartan 38 and Southern Cross 35, with a similar seas, there is no pounding. We were threw around a lot, but the boat was quiet.

I am not sure what does it mean, is it the weight of the Jeanneau or its hull design, or combination of both. I hope someone can shed some light on this, may be from someone who has delivered boats for awhile.

I like European design and their forward thinking. They are more likely take on newer concept and push the technology, while American boat builders are smaller and older, very little or no R&D funding at all. They continue to build the boat what they know a few decades ago.

It is certainly not an easy process to make a decision. but I want to make an informed decision with balanced compromises.

Thanks for taking time to read this thread and help my purchase.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> I am not familiar with the 409. Have not seen her or sailed her. But I am curious how you build a 40' boat at $200k? Wow. The C400's new will run you well into the 200s with your final bill likely into the low 3's after you get everything you want on them. At least that is what a dealer told me.
> 
> I would at least look at a Bene 40 and a C400 for comparrison. I like the Sabres too. But I don't think you will touch any of them in the 200k range... not realistically.
> 
> ...


Yes, 200K for 40 footer is very good price, this price also includes a pair of reversible electric Harken winches. I beleive this is due to their aggressive research in developing better manufacturing process - strong, less costly and faster. Cutting down or use cheaper material like using more particle board (IKEA style). Automated their plant so less labor cost. I fear if this trend continues, the small time boat builders will be the beginning of their end. Soon all it left are the mega manufactures and a handful of boutique boat builders who are cater to the high-end market.

Survival of the fittest, the natural selection is brutal, unfair and discriminating for those being replaced.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Some of the pounding will be as mentioned, a round bottom vs a flatter bottom, this is usually more upwind directly, than other points of sail, at least with my mid 80's Jeanneau, which has a flatter bottom compared to other boats of the time. I will also admit, not sure if my boat at 30' has an A rating, as it did not exist at the time, the ratings were from 1-5, and I have a 2, but all the other parts and pieces that seem to make boats A's.

Also, not sure how many truly try to sleep in a V berth unless at the dock. Most will sleep in an aft or mid boat area bunk of some sort. Try these area's next time you get a chance. It is not as noisy etc.

That particle boat part......not sure ALL the wood is particle. The actual finish is particle teak. Behind it, from what I recall is plywood, as has been done in Jeanneau's and many other European boats due to lack of wood supply for many year. Including mine. Altho the final show layer is solid, not the current particle/shavings made in line and glued to the plywood base. 

Yes, everything interior wise is made in a computer auto plant, with laser cutters etc. Then the interior parts are shipped from that plant, to the boat installation plant in France or SC on a pallet. 

The BIGGER manufactures do seem to be European in nature, as we lost many in the 70's and early 80's due to the boat tax. The industry in NA has for the most part, NEVER rebounded, nor with the current depression in the states, it will not for many years to come to the level it was in the 60's and 70's. We will pretty much be boutique building boats. At least in Europe, you have both mega, and boutique builders. Oz seems more boutique'ish as does Africa and SAmerica may be the same.

marty


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

I only experienced the pounding once on our Jeanneau, it is dead iron up hill wind and confused sea. I was just barely able to maintain 3 to 4 kn with 2000 rpm.

The pounding was so severe that I can hear anywhere on the boat. I was not trying to sleep in V-berth, just try to get my fouled weather gear out. The pounding was fearful. 

According to Jeanneau, the panel is particle board with veneer and solid wood trims. I am not sure if the particle board they use are marine grade or IKEA grade. If it is the IKEA grade, 10 min submerge in water will totally destroy the interior of the boat.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I've felt that pounding before, only we went from 6 to 2 knots, with a tide going against some very square waves, due to the wind and current fighting ea other! A lot of boats were pounding in those seas from comments from YC members coming home from a cruise. Other than the 40-50' 30K disp powerpoats, they drove thru.

marty


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## MJBrown (Apr 1, 2009)

FWIW I've sailed one in light air. A friend of mine has the dealership in Riverside NJ and I help him out at shows by answering questions, helping on demo sails etc. I spent 4 days sitting on the one at the Annapolis Show as well. Here are some comments take them or leave them. 
1. The boat sails very well in light air, under 10 kts. She tacks cleanly and quickly with a light feel to the helm. The running rigging is set up well and once you get used to the clutches they use on the jibsheets tacking becomes a one person, easily managed job. Simply lock the one on the leeward side prior to tacking. Then when you release the working sheet and take up the other side the clutch prevents the sheet from pulling out of your hand. Tacking becomes a breeze. It gives you the impression you're sailing a smaller boat in that the smaller headsail is easier to handle and the clutches take the strain off the sheet. If you wrap the sheet on the winches quick enough you don't need a winch handle. I've also sailed the Beneteau 40 and own a B43, the difference is notable. Winches are in easy reach of the helm behind the wheels. The continuous mainsheet system also took some getting used to but once you did it works quite nice and is easy to trim. I can't say if she'll pound or not in rough seas. I was a bit concerned that my B43 would as it too as a very flat aft section. I'm happy to say she normally does not, nor does the B40. I say normally since given the right conditions it can and will but it's easily managed by either bearing off or adjusting speed.
2. The cabin is very comfortable. After sitting in it for 4 days I can say the seat height for my 5'9" frame is about right. I usually have an issue with the edge of the cushions cutting off the circulation in my legs but not this time. The seat cushions were also nice to sit on. The cabin is fairly roomy which was tested during the show with a constant flow of people through it. Cut it back to two couples and I think it would be fine. The aft head was roomy with a very nice sized shower area. Something the wife will like. The storage compartment accessed via the head is also unheard of on a 40' boat. While the forward berth his nice and roomy, the aft seemed tight and would likely be the guest or kids quarters. 
3. The swing down transom gives the stern a nice clean look but it is a bit heavy. Not sure the wife or kids will be up to dealing with it.
4. The price you were quoted with the electric, reversing winches sounds pretty good. If I recall correctly the base proice at the show was $186K.
5. If you're dealing with Bay Yacht make sure the price is not based on the Boat As A Business deal. If you're interested in comparing numbers I can get you a name and number to call. The dealer for the northern bay is Riverside Yachts, Riverside NJ. While some manufacturers maintain a strict territory Jeanneau does not. 
6. Jeanneau is building a number of their boats at the Beneteau factory in Marion SC. The factory is set up to build any boat on the same production line. It's one of the ways they can keep the costs down.
7. if you can test sail the Benny 40 and the 409. Both should be available in Annapolis. They are definately two different boats.
I hope this helps. Not sure I can think of anything else but feel free to ask or PM me. And BTW I do not work for my buddy I have a full time job unrelated to the marine industry, but enjoy sailing other peoples boats, especially new ones 
Mike


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I see someone from Riverside on the Jeanneau owners forum frequently ansering questions, along with working on selling boats. I believe Xanshin who posts here, and moderates over there along with myself and the owner of the site has a new 57 on order to be used at the Annapolis show. I'm going on memory here to a degree. 

Nice report Mike. I had not seen anything but from a rag at the time. malcolm the owner of teh JO site, did get a ride on a 409 and posted some opinions too.

Marty


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

rockDAWG said:


> Yes, 200K for 40 footer is very good price, this price also includes a pair of reversible electric Harken winches. I beleive this is due to their aggressive research in developing better manufacturing process - strong, less costly and faster. Cutting down or use cheaper material like using more particle board (IKEA style). Automated their plant so less labor cost. I fear if this trend continues, the small time boat builders will be the beginning of their end. Soon all it left are the mega manufactures and a handful of boutique boat builders who are cater to the high-end market.
> 
> Survival of the fittest, the natural selection is brutal, unfair and discriminating for those being replaced.


Well, I would look at it with a pretty skeptical eye. If they can produce a solid, well made 40 footer in that range that would be great. My concern is where they have cut corners. The issue with sailboats is that a huge percentage of the boat is from thrid party manuacturers. Not much you can do to lower those costs but to buy in bulk and even then is small decrease in prices. But with oil at a high, thus the cost of resin at a high, I still am trying to figure that out. How thich are those hulls? How much E glass or kevlar are they putting in it? What is the keel made of?

THe price included is full sail away or is that only the base? THere seems to be a trend in some manufacturers to put out this base price that does not include little things like sails (I am joking, kinda) or basic equipment that will be needed. Apples-apples.

Again, I have NOT seen the boat or sailed it. It is nice to read the positive remarks made here about it. I have long been frustrated with the very high cost of boats as it pushes away a lot of sailors. But the margins on sailboats is very thin so somehow, somewhere, there are cuts. Its not my money - I already own my boat!!! SO I really don't care, but I am saying to really do a hard comparrison between similar boats, including bene, Catalina, and Hunter. Buy the best boat for your needs, not the cheapest. Cabinetry especially is one of those things that manufacturers love to skimp on as it looks good in the boat show, makes teh boat nice and airy since they just put in shelves, but is not practical except at the marina and is HELL to put in and make look good afterwards. If they are using too much cheap veneer, it will peel in a few years (or less) and looks terrible and is expensive to fix and make look. Forget selling your boat if the veneer is peeling away or water damaged. Other things that come to mind are wire runs and plumbing runs, how deep is the bilge (very important on flat bottom boats because when on a long tack you want that water running to the bottom of the bilge), engine accessibility especially for the oil filter and impeller, expandable panel (another area where they love to skimp as electrical is expensive), inner spring mattresses (Will never go back to foam pads), basic electronics like depth, wind, speed, and VHF. DO they have a core sample from the hull and where was it taken? Is the hull cored, where does it stop, why? Tankage both water and fuel (important because this is not easily changed). THose are a few ideas of things to compare against boats.

THere are also some amazing deals on used boats for 200k that are worth considering. GO shop 200k around and see what you can get and as you walk through that boat, don't get turned on by all the nice new shinny aspects of it. Dig deep into it and question why it is so much cheaper. Ask Catalina why it is. Ask Hunter, etc.

Hope you take my message as it was meant - not harping on the boat, just wondering how?

Brian

PS If it comes with inmast furling, you will not use the electric winches much if at all. We have a rule not to use them at all on ours as it is a great way to make a jam. If slab reef, you will use them to raise and lower main and to hoist people up the mast.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

rockDAWG said:


> ... They also have a program that we can charter the boat before we commit. It will be wonderful if we can charter for two weeks for an off-shore trial. For all indication, I believe the 409 is made for coastal and bay sailing. My question is will she sail comfortably and take care herself like HR39, Sabre 40 or Caliber 40 LCR in the rough sea.


Yes, that's what you should do. I guess they will charter the boat to you at a special price. I always do that with the boats I am interested. These year I will be sailing a Salona 41. If they work like Salona they will make you a 30% discount or if you don't get a special deal they can deduct the price if you buy the boat. On Europe now that the Summer is on they are offering huge discounts on the boats they have for sale, till 20%.

Countdown to summer sailboats - Jeanneau Yard

This boat is different from the HR 40 (the Caliber 40 is really an old design and the 402 is another generation boat). The HR 40 has a modern hull but heavier stronger and with a bigger D/B ratio even if I think that the Jeanneau has a bigger percentage of ballast on the bulb. The Jeanneau is a much faster boat but the HR gives a sense of stability and safety superior to the Jeanneau.

The overall stability of the HS 40 is bigger (heavier boat) and that sense of safety is also given because the boat has proportionally a lot less sail than the Jeanneau. You can always sail the Jeanneau with one reef and you will go probably faster than the HS 40 and will have the same sense of stability and safety.

The HR 40 is already prepared for offshore work. All that the 409 needs for that is a removable stay and a small stay sail and to ask them to have a 3º reef on the main ( non automatic reefing - 2 lines). That is not made by the factory but a good dealer would take care of that without any problem. All the reefing will be done from the cockpit and the boat is already prepared for solo sailing. The boat has a good stability with a good B/D ratio: 30% on the 2.1 bulbed keel. For instance the Benetau 40 has 25%.

If your cruising grounds permit buy the one with 2.1 m draft. That is the boat that the designer has made as standard. If you want to circumnavigate at the right season and at the right latitude I don't think you have any problem with this boat. I wouldn't but in this case that has more to do with the sailor then with the boat

http://www.bluenoseyachts.com/SO 309.pdf

Only recently they have changed the standard draft to 1.55. The 2.10 is a better balanced sailing boat.

Bottom point: If you have any doubt about the boat you want you should just charter both boats for week. That should give you the means to decide. In my opinion the 409 is the best European big production 40ft mainstream cruiser on the market.

YouTube - ‪New Jeanneau yacht 409 Sailboat start to delivery day sail B‬‏

YouTube - ‪Sun Odyssey 409.mov‬‏

If you want to compare it with an American boat just try the Hunter 39. I don't like it but that is a matter of opinion. I think the Catalina would be a more fit opponent but the boat is much more expensive.

Regards

Paulo


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

HELLO PAULO!!! Hope you have been doing well.

Brian


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Thanks Brian,
Still waiting but things seem to be on the right course.
Next moth no matter what I will take some vacations, I will be touring with my family in France and Italy. We will sail 15 days on a Hanse on the Balearic Islands than a week on a new Salona, in Croatia.

And how are you? What is the sailing program for this summer?

(RockDawg, hope you don't mind this out of the subject detour)

Regards

Paulo


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

PCP said:


> (RockDawg, hope you don't mind this out of the subject detour)
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Nope, I don't mind  Actually I am glad you and others came by to help the confused 'ME' out. LOL.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

MJBrown;746054
4. The price you were quoted with the electric said:


> Mike, thanks for the lengthy writing. Your comments are very helpful. Yes it is Bay Yacht I am referring to. I'm still waiting for them to get back to me. In their ad on Yachtworld, it says:
> 
> ------------------------------------
> Jeanneau 409, new for 2011. $206.6K
> ...


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> 1. *My concern is where they have cut corners.* The issue with sailboats is that a huge percentage of the boat is from thrid party manuacturers. Not much you can do to lower those costs but to buy in bulk and even then is small decrease in prices. But with oil at a high, thus the cost of resin at a high, I still am trying to figure that out. How thich are those hulls? How much E glass or kevlar are they putting in it? What is the keel made of?
> 
> 2. *The price included is full sail away or is that only the base? THere seems to be a trend in some manufacturers to put out this base price that does not include little things like sails (I am joking, kinda) or basic equipment that will be needed. Apples-apples.*
> 
> ...


1. In principal, I agree with you in many fronts, but I disagree the boat industry has narrow margin. May be the margin is getting smaller for the small guys because his markup over big markup . The last guy has nothing to be made. With the size of Jeanneau/Benneteau, they should have enormous negotiation power on product they use. They get it cheaper than those by Sabre or Caliber. I think and I hope the reduced cost of the 409 reflect on the saving on labor cost - better production process for more rigid and light hull by using grids. Yes, the glass is thinner, but if it will hold the boat. I don't really care. Yes, we heavily rely on their engineers to make that decision for us. Jeanneau is here for the long haul, there is not reason for them to cut their own throat.

Having said that, I hate to see IKEA type of furniture in the boat, but what is the other alternative when our resources are diminishing.

Despite I am fond of the 409, I still have many concerns. Therefore I have not diminished my effort to look at old boats. For some reasons, I have no hesitation to take a well care of HR, Sabre, Caliber or Valiant to cross the ocean any time. But I can't say it for 409.

I started reading the post on the Jeanneau owner forum last nite. Many have expressed that their Jeanneau handled very well in heavy seas. I am happy to hear that, but I need to hear more.



> Hope you take my message as it was meant - not harping on the boat, just wondering how?


I consider everyone's comment seriously. It will be me who suffers when I make a mistake. Therefore I don't make an emotional decision. When I list all the pros and cons of each boat and its intended purposes of the boat, there is only one answer will pop out regardless.

I will take my time.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

> This boat is different from the HR 40 (the Caliber 40 is really an old design and the 402 is another generation boat). The HR 40 has a modern hull but heavier stronger and with a bigger D/B ratio even if I think that the Jeanneau has a bigger percentage of ballast on the bulb. The Jeanneau is a much faster boat* but the HR gives a sense of stability and safety superior to the Jeanneau*.
> 
> The overall stability of the HS 40 is bigger (heavier boat) and that sense of safety is also given because the boat has proportionally a lot less sail than the Jeanneau. You can always sail the Jeanneau with one reef and you will go probably faster than the HS 40 and will have the same sense of stability and safety.
> 
> The HR 40 is already prepared for offshore work. All that the 409 needs for that is a removable stay and a small stay sail and to ask them to have a 3º reef on the main ( non automatic reefing - 2 lines). That is not made by the factory but a good dealer would take care of that without any problem. All the reefing will be done from the cockpit and the boat is already prepared for solo sailing. The boat has a good stability with a good B/D ratio: 30% on the 2.1 bulbed keel. For instance the Benetau 40 has 25%.


Paulo, this is very encouraging if I can do small mods on the 409 to make it safer.

Since the 409 comes with furling main, if I opt for a batten main, I should able to save some money for other things. I need to add some more hand hold, lee cloth for sleeping, red light for night vision. I know they have an option for Performance sail.



> If your cruising grounds permit buy the one with 2.1 m draft. That is the boat that the designer has made as standard. If you want to circumnavigate at the right season and at the right latitude I don't think you have any problem with this boat. I wouldn't but in this case that has more to do with the sailor then with the boat
> 
> Only recently they have changed the standard draft to 1.55. The 2.10 is a better balanced sailing boat.


I will think hard. If I take 2.1 draft, I may have to give up sailing to Bahama.



> If you want to compare it with an American boat just try the Hunter 39. I don't like it but that is a matter of opinion. I think the Catalina would be a more fit opponent but the boat is much more expensive.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Unfortunately, there are only a few American sailboats I like that I can afford. If buying a new boat, the European boats are the only option. Likewise, German cars give the best performance/dollars. It will out last me. hahahaha

P.S. BTW, What is the draft of the river/canals in Europe. The one near Bordeaux which snakes thru inland and out to Mediterranean Sea near Spain. I think it is just 5 ft, right ? It is in my bucket list, sort of.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

rockDAWG said:


> ...
> 
> I will think hard. If I take 2.1 draft, I may have to give up sailing to Bahama.


You mean, big sailboats don't cruise in Bahamas? All of them have more than
2.40m draft. Yes you will cruise, with some limitations, but less than millionaire's sailboats

The biggest difference from the 1.55m draft will be a better upwind performance, less leeway and a better overall performance (the short keel is heavier). Probably the more important difference will be the leeway.



rockDAWG said:


> ...
> ..
> P.S. BTW, What is the draft of the river/canals in Europe. The one near Bordeaux which snakes thru inland and out to Mediterranean Sea near Spain. I think it is just 5 ft, right ? It is in my bucket list, sort of.


Hum, I don't have a clue. I prefer to cruise mainland Europe in a roadster

On the canals you don't sail, you have to take down the mast and a sailing boat is not the right boat to do the channels. Well, not my cup of tea anyway.

Cruising Europe yes, but on a fast car on twisting mountain roads with lots of stops in nice villages. The Alps and Pyrenees have great mountain roads and incredible villages.

Regards

Paulo


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

I will consider the deep draft. It is a 2.4 or 2.1 m. I hope it is 2.1M or 6.9 ft.

BTW, with the swimming platform and the current stern shape of the 409, it will be difficult to instill wind vane steering. 



> *On the canals you don't sail, you have to take down the mast and a sailing boat is not the right boat to do the channels. Well, not my cup of tea anyway.*


Hahah... I am well aware of it. It is hard to tack with the canal being 10 M wide. . But for the Americans, it is cool to the sailboat through Paris, etc. 


> Cruising Europe yes, but on a fast car on twisting mountain roads with lots of stops in nice villages. The Alps and Pyrenees have great mountain roads and incredible village


We did that in 2008 when we took an European delivery of our BMW. We drove through Germany, Austria, Italy (Milan), Geneva, France. We dropped our vehicle in Paris. We had a great time, but regret that we did not go to Easter Europe.

It is too bad the Porsche's European delivery sucks. Otherwise I will consider getting one. As I am getting older, I lost much of my desire in 911. There is no place to drive in the States except on the track.


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

I hope you make the right decision for you. Having been on the boat and my review, I still stand by it. I feel Jeanneau just cut to many corners in making the interior of the boat and some of the sailing gear for anything but occasional use. With the problems of the 42DS written about the Jeanneau site, I feel that the keel problem the new owner is experiencing is the way the keel is bolted on; Bolted on with helix coil in the iron vs J bolts. Any type of grounding will result in the damage that this owner is having. The French boat is design to the minimum specification allowed. It will work as long as nothing goes wrong.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Melra,

I am with you. You get what you pay for. No comparing HR, Calbers, Sabres with Jenneaus. They are made quality wise very different. Thats not to say you cant take any boat anywhere with some modification. Look at resale value and the truth is apparent which boats hold up after 10 years, 20 years. That can tell you which are made better. Older boats can be updated with new equipment, that is window dressing. Its whats the hull made from...how is it made... how do delivery captains rate them against each other as they have no real bias. I would listen strongly to that. then...

Buy the boat which bests suits the way you will sail her and what is important. One of my good friends has a Hinkley. It is a beautiful classic boat which is like a museum piece, which is why he likes it...it fits what he wants in a boat. Cant make a Jenneau into an HR.

Dave


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

chef2sail said:


> Melra,
> 
> I am with you. You get what you pay for. ...


Well, Tartan's are pretty expensive and I hear that there are a lot of costumers very dissatisfied with their boats, with huge problems that they cannot get fixed under warranty.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

PCP...you are right about the Tartan, but the older ones pre 1998 are great boats. Rawkdawg is looking for a boat in the $200,000 range it appears. Cant touch a new Tartan for that anyway. It is sad what Tratn has done to itself, but I didnt think Sabre, Calber or HR has those problems.

My point is more aimed at trying to compare a Sabre, Calber, HR to a Jenneau. They come from two different worlds, so it what do you intend usung it for

Buy new for 200,000 a 40 Jenneau sailboat, I do not think that in 10 years that boat will worth even $100,000, if you look how they depreciate and their resale value. Buy a 10 year old HR and in 10 years it will still be worth in excess of 100,000

Understand I am in no way putting down the Jenneaus or anyother production boat. Many friends who are good sailors have them.

Dave


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Melrna said:


> ... Any type of grounding will result in the damage that this owner is having. The French boat is design to the minimum specification allowed. It will work as long as nothing goes wrong.


The French have an huge boat production, on the last 5 years about 10000 boats were manufactured. The Jeanneaus are not less well built than the Dufours, Benetaus and other European mass production boats. If you were right, because things go wrong all the time (many groundings) there should be an huge number of European boats with structural problems. But in fact there are not.

On the main French sail forum a guy that is interested in statistical evidence about boats (accidents, capsizes and so on) posted a thread to receive information about structural problems on boats, including keel problems:

Hisse Et Oh - Forums techniques : VOILIERS DE SERIE: problèmes de structures connus.

Very few problems with new boats, mostly problems with old boats.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

chef2sail said:


> PCP...you are right about the Tartan, but the older ones pre 1998 are great boats. Rawkdawg is looking for a boat in the $200,000 range it appears. Cant touch a new Tartan for that anyway. It is sad what Tratn has done to itself, but I didnt think Sabre, Calber or HR has those problems.
> 
> My point is more aimed at trying to compare a Sabre, Calber, HR to a Jenneau. They come from two different worlds, so it what do you intend usung it for
> 
> ...


Dave,

Of course you are right, but not all the way. A Jeanneau is better designed than any of those boats. The HR has a modern hull but for having something designed like a Caliber yacht you have to look at Jeanneaus from the 80's.

Regarding value you are about right, probably a Jeanneau bought now for 200 000 will just be worth probably 100 000 in 10 years time and I am pretty sure a HR 40 bought now will worth a lot more than 100 000 in 10 years. But a HR bought now will cost 400 000 and what I can tell you is that you would lose a lot more than 100 000 in 10 years time.

Yes no doubt a HR is better built than a Jeanneau, mainly in what concerns overall quality but that difference is nowhere near the money difference. Mass production techniques, advanced used of robotics, scale production permits control of quality and huge savings in labor. The final result is a good boat at an affordable price.

The Jeanneau 409 is not designed as a all time passage maker, but very few boats are mostly because they are not used for it most of the time and the characteristics that would make them excel in that use would be counterproductive in the use that is given to the boat most of the time.

The 409 is a good compromise, a fast boat with good stability that can sail with weak winds and a boat that if conveniently equipped is fit for offshore work, perfectly capable of safely cross the Atlantic (in the right season) and much more.

Regards

Paulo


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

This is an older thread, but I thought it made sense to add to it rather than start a new one. 

I recently have been looking at a new 409, and have sailed it in light wind. I am impressed with how easy it is to short hand. As we think about a bigger boat for us it seems to be a good option. I would like some input now that it has been out for a few years as to durability and sailing performance, especially in heavy air. Is it well balanced? Are there any known trouble spots? 

I already know about the interior wood compromises and iron keel. The boat I am looking at has the deeper draft, non-furling main, 110 jib and has the hardware installed for the bigger jib and asymmetrical kite. I often sail short handed, sail 2 times a week in season, and spend a week or 2 a year on the boat cruising. No offshore sailing or racing.

Any input from sailors with real world experience with this boat would be appreciated. I did check on the Jeanneau owners site but there is not much info on this model.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Baboon,

There are 14 or so, so far sold in the puget sound area. I would think, assume you are dealing with MSC on a new boat. They should have some names of people that have bought the boat so you can ask questions on this. OR, go to the owners forum and literally post a question like this. I find my mid 80's 28' on deck boat does just fine here in puget sound in upwards of 40 knot winds when it is appropriatly reefed etc. I am positive a 409 would be the same. 

Marty


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