# Converting to double-line reefing



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

I would like to convert my very conventional system with two reef downhauls at the clew, cleated to the boom, and a hook at the tack, to a two-line per reef system (so I'd have 4 lines altogether for my two reefs) with all the lines brought back to the cockpit.

I have bought a 4 way rope clutch, and 4-way deck foot block. I'll need 4 stand up blocks for the deck too. Maybe a small winch will be needed?

The aft end of the boom has two cheek blocks in use already for the reef clew lines so I'll continue to use those. 

1) I'm thinking of adding a double block to the underneath of the boom for the two clew lines. What's the best way of attaching this block to the boom? Use a bail? It'll need to be strong.

2) I can add two bullseyes to the mast for the tack lines. I will need a way of tying the two tack lines to the boom, then they get routed up through the tack cringles, back down to the bullseyes on the boom. How do I tie the lines to the boom? A bail again?

I'm trying to design the whole system to at least 1000lb working load. (180sq ft main)

If anyone has experience of this conversion, parts they liked, things to watch out for, advice in general, I'd be very interested to hear.


----------



## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

My boat is set up for double line reefing as you describe (i got it that way) for two reefs with all lines led back to the cockpit. Turning blocks at the base of the mast, line organizers and then clutches for each. There's a small cabin top winch port and stbd to tension the lines. Sounds like you are going to work this at the mast. Cheek blocks screwed into mast and cam cleats should work.


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Hi Jim, no I'm going to bring all the lines back to the cockpit. I have a 4-line clutch to mount in the cockpit, and a 4 way foot block for the deck. I do intend to add a small winch near the clutches eventually.


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Mark,

Why not single line reefing? It isn't any more expensive, and certainly lett complicated, since you only have one reef line for each reef. I prefer to bring them both back to the same side of the cockpit, but you can keep them separate. Assuming you already have a cockpit winch it can likely double for this as well.

You do give up a little bit of sail shape since the out haul can't be played, but typically when you need it you are going to want it tight anyway.


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Interesting to hear a positive view of single line reefing as I read quite a bit of negative views, saying that two line is much better. I'll have to think about it a bit more. How long is your boat? It seems to work better for smaller craft.


----------



## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I had single line for a bit, worked ok. Then went double per say, but a bit simpler....maybe....

I use my cunningham hook for the tack end of things, and two lines at the aft of the boom for the clew end. Yeah it does involve going forward or having a crew when racing mover the cunning ham hook. but a few less lines coming from the mast back tot he cabin top. Altho that could mean two more clutches..........have 16 or 17 already...........no, what I have works!

Marty


----------



## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

MarkSF said:


> Interesting to hear a positive view of single line reefing as I read quite a bit of negative views, saying that two line is much better.


I've heard the same things. Major complaint is too much friction which the two line system greatly reduces.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Stumble said:


> Mark,
> 
> Why not single line reefing? It isn't any more expensive, and certainly lett complicated, since you only have one reef line for each reef. I prefer to bring them both back to the same side of the cockpit, but you can keep them separate. Assuming you already have a cockpit winch it can likely double for this as well.
> 
> You do give up a little bit of sail shape since the out haul can't be played, but typically when you need it you are going to want it tight anyway.


Having used quite a few single line reef systems, there are a lot of reasons not to use single line reefing. First of all there is significantly more friction in a single line system making the reef harder to get it. In order to reduce the impact of that friction, additional purchase is sometimes added to the system which means that you are also hauling more line which is still also more heavily loaded. While you say that a single line system is simplier, except that there is only one line led back to the cockpit, single line really isn't any simplier since all of the parts are there and then some and worse yet, the complexity fo the system occurs out of sight within the boom where it is harder to inspect and maintain.

Then of course there is the sail shape issue, which is very significant since reefing occurs in heavy air when proper sail shape is a necessity affecting heeling, helm loads, and the ability to sail off a lee shore rather than a luxury.

Two line reefing systems are cheaper to build and install, much more reliable, and easier and faster to use. There is no excuse for single-line systems.


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> Having used quite a few single line reef systems, there are a lot of reasons not to use single line reefing.


Agreed. I also offer that there are a lot of reasons not to lead lines back to the cockpit. Why would you want to do that? Greatly increased friction leads to greatly increased loads. The friction requires more advantage which means higher loads which mean bigger lines leading to more friction and oh by the way more cost for everything.

Remember the halyard needs to be led back also, so you're talking about two winches not one. What other controls have to be led back once you make that decision? Vang? Cunningham?

Halyards, cunningham, vang, and reefing belong at the mast. Everything is to hand and generally only needs a winch for the last little bit. I know a lot of people truly believe it is easier (or safer) to lead lines aft. I don't agree. It is harder and much more expensive to run them aft. If a line parts something bad is going to happen. Alternatively going to the mast is fast and simple.

I'm probably an old fart who prefers the old-fashioned, simple, and elegant. If an old fart like me can scramble up to the mast and throw in a third reef so can you.


----------



## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

Jeff_H said:


> There is no excuse for single-line systems.


Well, here's one: my boat came with a single-line system already set up. It may not be a good reason, but it is a decent excuse. 

I can see how you have more control with two lines--that is after all what you have before you reef. With the single line you definitely have to work it right to get the right sail shape. Friction is not a problem with ours though--I lube the in-boom shuttles once a year to help out. And I like only having two lines in the cockpit for the two reefs.


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

I am it a huge fan of single line reefing for racing, but for cruising I am fine with it. So long as you are using good quality gear there isn't any more friction in the system than in a double line set up, and it reduces the amount of work needed to put a reef in, which is always a good thing.

Sure you give up a little sail shape, but how many cruisers are constantly manipulation the out haul and Cunningham anyway? If you don't typically work these lines a single line system will give you comperabe sail control to what you normally have. If set up properly it actually forces you to have a tight foot, anyway, which is what you want in storm conditions.

And since the OP was running things back to the cockpit anyway, he likely has a cabin top winch he can use to tighten it up. It reduces the amount of line clutter in the cockpit when you don't need it, requires one vs two spinlocks, allows a smaller deck organizer, and all for the cost of a marginal loss in sail shape. Worth it to me on a cruiser. 

The race boat however, well it's reefing system involves having two main sails and putting up the right one to start with. Alternatively we have a double line system.


----------



## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

MarkSF said:


> I would like to convert my very conventional system with two reef downhauls at the clew, cleated to the boom, and a hook at the tack, to a two-line per reef system (so I'd have 4 lines altogether for my two reefs) with all the lines brought back to the cockpit.
> 
> I have bought a 4 way rope clutch, and 4-way deck foot block. I'll need 4 stand up blocks for the deck too. Maybe a small winch will be needed?
> 
> ...


I have a two line reef system and it works fine for me - full control and easy to use.

1) You could use a dyneema loop around the boom the same way I have attached the sheet blocks in my picture.

2)The tack reef lines are just tied to the reef cringles - no need for 1:2 purchase here. I use the sheaves on the mast to get a fair lead down to the mast base block


----------



## mdbee (May 2, 2007)

My experience as well.



JimsCAL said:


> I've heard the same things. Major complaint is too much friction which the two line system greatly reduces.


----------



## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Stumble said:


> Mark,
> 
> Why not single line reefing? It isn't any more expensive, and certainly lett complicated, since you only have one reef line for each reef.


I assume you mean "less" complicated. Have you seen what a "single-line" reefing system looks like inside a boom?










I have had them jam on two different boats.

I like a ram's horn and leech reefing line with the winches and cleats at the mast. If you are single-handing, heave-to and reef. That is a simple system.


----------



## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

The most important, and so far unsaid issue with single line reefing is that the clew ALWAYS needs more tension than the tack. Only double line reefing lets you tension the clew as required.

Going up on deck, even if hove to, is not my cup of tea. We experienced sudden high winds and seven foot seas outside the Golden Gate last week and I was VERY happy to be able to reef from the cockpit. VERY. Even hove to, it was NO fun on deck when I had to tie up the main after dropping it.

Double line reefing is easy to do. Our clew lines are run inside the boom, but you can do them on the outside if need be with simple U straps. Clutches are needed for each line, but only the clew lines ever need a winch, so locate your clutches properly.


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

I'm 52 years old. My 40' sloop weights 22k#. It takes just under 3 minutes to reef the main (1 to 2 or 2 to 3) at the mast.

I'm not too proud to crawl.


----------



## cwyckham (Jul 9, 2009)

I like the double line reefing led back to the cockpit. Here's how ours will be set up when we're done with it (we're still missing a couple small elements)

-Tack lines are run to a cam cleat (only one required) near the main halyard. No winch necessary as you can tension with the halyard winch. Tie them around the boom, then through the cringle. The 2:1 purchase is worthwhile for pulling the sail down when there's some wind load on it (reaching), but we don't need a winch here.

- We will add a small cam cleat downstream of the main halyard winch and mark the halyard at the correct locations for each reef.

- We have 2 clutches and a small winch for the clew lines.

Our procedure for a 20 second reef:
- ease sheet / vang
- place halyard into small cam cleat at mark for the reef you're going too (you'll have a loop of slack between the halyard clutch and the cleat)
- open halyard clutch and pull sail down using tack reefing line.
- Close halyard clutch, final tension with halyard winch if required.
- bring in clew line and tension with winch
- tension sheet and/or vang to get going again.


----------



## CapnRon47 (Jul 29, 2007)

My boat, Heron, came with double point reefing (horn attach at the tack and line for clew). I recently added the hardware to do everything from the cockpit (but without removing the hardware at the mast, so both options are still open).

See here where I provide pictures and description,
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/87738-running-lines-cockpit-need-some-advice-ideas-4.html

I did it for safety and convenience, I single hand and always used jack lines and harness. Now from the cockpit it is less of a hassle. Also, I found that I can raise my mainsail by hand from the cockpit as I have better leverage on the main halyard than I had at the mast. The single turning block I added to run it to the cockpit did not add that much friction. The system works great, I needed to add clutches on the rooftop, but I already had winches there for the main sheet and for my swing keel, so that made it an easy modification.

Ron


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

OK I finally made the finishing touches yesterday and tried the "two-lines per reef system" out. Seems to work really well. 

Some thoughts and notes :

1) If you put in the first reef, then the second (rather than going straight from no reef to the second) the fold of sail at the foot takes care of itself very nicely.

2) No more dangling reef clew lines when the sail is lowered - you just take out the slack in the lines.

3) I first tried Samson XLS for the tack lines but the stretch makes things awkward. I positioned the tack at the right height with the reef 1 tack line, then tensioned the halyard and was dismayed to watch the tack line stretch by 3 or 4 inches. Now I have XLS Extra (dyneema blend) and can't see any stretch at all. Conclusion is that this system needs low stretch lines.

Let's see if I still like the system in a few months time when I've used it more.

The main downside that I can see is this : When the main is down, and you take all the slack out of all 4 reef lines, there's an awful lot of line on the cockpit floor that then has to be coiled up and put in the sheet bag.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

_3) I first tried Samson XLS for the tack lines but the stretch makes things awkward. I positioned the tack at the right height with the reef 1 tack line, then tensioned the halyard and was dismayed to watch the tack line stretch by 3 or 4 inches. Now I have XLS Extra (dyneema blend) and can't see any stretch at all. Conclusion is that this system needs low stretch lines._

The trick is that the tack line should be 2:1 by passing through the dogbone and back to the gooseneck. Then you don't need low stretch and you can pull it most of the way in by hand without a winch.

The trick on the extra line is to toss it into a fold in the sail, or else mark it so you can release it back top the right length without having to think about it.


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Yes I did the 2:1 with the tack lines, there is a handy cleat on the mast to tie them to. Still, the stretch was excessive I thought. Well maybe it can be compensated for by marking the tack lines post stretch - but anyway it works better with the low stretch line (Extra should stretch about 0.5% vs 1.8% for XLS, at the same 350 lbs load)


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

OK, here are a couple of pictures in the hope that they help the next person to try this.



















One problem I faced is finding room for the 4 stand up blocks. Very restricted space with the head bulkhead, mast, hatch, and dorade box all in the way. I managed it but would have liked to place them further apart. However, there's only ever a load on 2 out of 4 and they are well backed with s/s plates.

I need to add a bullseye or two to make that black/silver line run more fairly.


----------

