# A very specific Serious Question



## Interaxions (Mar 11, 2011)

If I have 450k to spend, am I better off buying an older boat for less money and fixing it up with the difference in savings, or a newer boat.

Required:

Imagine it is the end of the world, and my home is going to be my boat. I want to make it as completely self-sufficient as possible, solar, water maker etc. I realize if I spend too much on a newer vessel I won't have enough left for add-ons.

I really want space up to 50' but have been told I may be "safer" not going over 45 like a hunter,

A LITTLE HELP PLEASE! Serious buyer, time is running out!

Thanks very much for input on specs etc, and what I will need. This is not a "vacation" but a permanent life-style choice, and yes I grew up sailing/racing/ etc but never gone for serious bluewater living....

all inputs appreciated re: required gear etc. Also budgeting 36k per year for living expenses, but don't know how much for "hidden" fees like you know...highway robbery charges etc in unknown places....

Thanks again
David L


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## omaho5 (Jun 5, 2008)

$450 large can buy several boats. Then you can donate one to me. 
I wll sell my CD 22 and all will be well.


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## Interaxions (Mar 11, 2011)

Just to be clear I am talking about a seaworthy bluewater sailboat with myself and my wife only, center cockpit, possible pilothouse, solid endurance and liveability, and then I will make sure the gear is the best possible. Suggestions? what or how would you gear yourself with a 450k budget?


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## Interaxions (Mar 11, 2011)

very cute omaho! I know but I am really looking at like a morgan 51, but the AGE of the vessel has me a little scared only 135k. But I am also looking at doing some chartering in the meantime before the proverbial maneur hits the fan....I know things break etc.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Okay, assuming this is even remotely real, here is what I would do:
spend $150k on the best 20 year old 50'er I could find. here's why- a boat that old has already taken the depreciation hit, and has likely undergone it's second equipment refit, is on it's second owner who now is too old to feel he can sail her, so you will get a 5 year old engine, and 2 year old electronics at half their installed cost. Then convert the rest of your alleged assets NOW to gold. Now you have hard trading material if the signals received by your tinfoil hat are correct.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

Are we speaking May 2011, or Dec 2012...

as the others say, 450 very large will buy a lot of boat, even the collector quality ones.

If this year I would buy the nicest 40-48 Center Cockpit I could fine...there are several. Model Year does not matter as much as the condition and build quality. Sabre, IP, SouWester, come to mind.

Then equip it with those things that will be needed most, after the stuff hits, so that you can be as close to 100% self sustaining as possible.

Living expenses will be a non-issue after any of the predicted events. KEEPING your stuff will be the thing you spend 100% of your time doing.

If 2012, then I would wait to early summer, as the 2011 event happening or not may make a very big impact on your plans for 2012 and the years following. I am not sure I would want to be on a boat with today's RO watermakers and hope to "find" fresh water (not that it will be any easier on land), as without parts and copious amounts of power, watermaking may consume the rest of your time. 

The rest, as they say, is icing on the cake...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Several hundred possibilities here in this N.A. search for up to $350K.

(Sail) Cruiser Boats For Sale

I'd be shopping for the best-equipped most suitable boat for $350K or thereabouts and then know that whatever upgrades and additions I'd need would keep me in the 400 - 450 range.

Hylas, C&C Landfall 48, though older - a good one something like those could well be good for another go-around. I wouldn't let age by itself necessarily be a deal breaker (to a point, of course).

Your budgets (purchase and cruising) will be the envy of many.... it should be easy to find what you need/want.


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## delan (May 2, 2009)

Here you go
1986 Scandi Yachts Deerfoot Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Not sure how real your expectations are for the end of the world. I suggest a boat will be little comfort, as you will find it hard to procure replacement and repair parts in that scenario.

If that is just an analogy to how well you want her equipped, then I would suggest looking for the best hull you can find that was used lightly and may only be 5 to 7 years old. The biggest depreciation hit will be behind you and all the systems should be checked out with low hours. 

It is unlikely that you will find something that is perfectly outfitted, but the more you buy already installed, the more of your budget you will have to retrofit the rest. Toys all depreciate by 50% the moment you install them.

A better analogy for me was to have a second/vacation home that we could sail.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Given your parameters, I would look at a Nauticat 44...

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatMergedDetails.jsp?boat_id=2285889&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=77233&url=

... but that's me...


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Interaxions said:


> I really want space up to 50' but have been told I may be "safer" not going over 45
> 
> David L


Obviously you have been speaking to idiots. A 50 footer will always be safer than a 45 unless you too are off the trolly 

With that money you will be able to buy a new shiny Beneteau 50 with all the new options that will give you a decade of extreemly low maintenance.

Beneteau 50 aprox USD$300,000
Options/Electronics USD$100,000
cruising Extras $50,000

http://www.beneteau.com/UserFile/File/Voile/Tarif/Tarif_public_Voile_ANG.pdf
To convert put into Google a string like convert 209000 eur to usd - Google Search
Or get the US prices at yar Bene website.

You have the money to buy the best, so why buy an old ****locker?

Mark


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

This boat looks like a good buy. You need $100,000 in reserve and about $50,000 a year to cruise and maintain a boat like this.

For Sale: Amel Super Maramu 53' Yacht - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Phil


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## Interaxions (Mar 11, 2011)

*Thanks Everyone! and more...*

Great Input. This has been the key question for me, whether to spend a hard 200k on the tried and true and save the rest for parts or whether going for something like the new beneteau is truly the better route. There is a guy selling something called a "wellington" 44' one owner like thirty years, called the bird of paradise, and he swears he prefers his to his friend's beneteau.

This is a real inquiry, to find out about me and my family background etc, go to strategicnews.com

and no, the end of the world has nothing to do with all that other nonsense, by the way, but we have nevertheless arrived. Also, I noticed talk of spare parts...VERY tricky I imagine depending....

So any other input is MUCH appreciated, as I hope to be on the water by May notwithstanding that DATE has NOTHING to do with my plans!

ANy other suggestions, boats, needs etc WELCOME, and I will let you know what is up for those who care to follow in a few months on strategicnews.com

Thanks Again
David Lawrence III
(Grandson of the Founder of USNEWS&WORLD REPORT)


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## Interaxions (Mar 11, 2011)

DELAN - SCURVY DOG - GREAT REPLY!!!! I am looking at two of those right now. THANK YOU!!! that is the kind of response I needed.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Here's another.. we were on this boat in Seattle last month, she looks nearly ready to go again. Recognized designer/builder.

1995 Able Apogee Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

If you're in a big hurry, perhaps the cruising life is not for you. Resolving the question by throwing money at it may not be the answer either. Buying a new Hylas 47 or similar could fit your bill and quickly deplete your budget, but what do you really want? Where are you planning to go? Why? On our last cruise we met a couple who were barely able to handle their "larger and safer" boat. They'd have had big problems if we (or someone else) hadn't been there to catch their lines. What are your capabilities, beyond the checkbook?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Faster
The 9'9" draft of the Apogee might keep it out of a few nice places.

I think an Apogee is a good choice but I would prefer one of these:
1995 TPI Composites Sundeer Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

This Sundeer knows the way around.


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## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

Part of the answer depends on whether you like working on boats. A newer boat will has less maintenance / things breaking where an older boat will require a lot more hands on work. 

With my current boat I could of easily afforded a newer yacht, however I enjoy working on boats. Plus when you are in the middle of nowhere and things start to break the knowledge / experience you gained working on your own boat comes in very handy.

Ilenart


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Im surprised nobody has suggested a Hinckley? I am know very little about this price range - a Nauticat or (preferably) Cabo Rico would suit me fine; but the few Hinckleys I have been on made me ache with desire....


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Or Morris


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## nauticalnut (Sep 5, 2006)

I would reccommend the following:

EndeavourCats Home Page
click on Pre owned boats. I have been on the 2003 44 ft "IV Play" and it is well worth the $350k. Very spacious and stable. Read the owners testimonials; a smaller 30' cat made the jump from the US mainland to Hawaii. I'd call that bluewater. The heated / cooled cockpit and huge solar array on the roof are nice additions. I know for a fact that you can run the AC at the dock just off the solar panels (well here in Florida anyways).

If you are looking at monohulls, my first pick would be a Island packet. I have been on several and they are solidly built Bluewater cruisers. Shannon yachts would be my second choice.

For older hulls Gulfstar and Irwin made some fine yachts in your length/price range. I believe Ted Irwins personal Yacht is up for sale on Yachtworld

Bear in mind that a bigger boat means more crew. all the one I have indicated are easily handled by a couple or solo (with some practice).

Also is you want to do some gunkholing in the carribbean you will need a shallow draft for some of the more remote locales. in that case a southerly should be included on your list.

Good luck, 
Chris Alexander
FSO-CS 
US Coast Guard Auxiliary
Flotilla 74 Brandon, FL
US Coast Guard Auxiliary, District 7 Division 7 - Flotilla #74, Brandon FL


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## centaursailor (Nov 7, 2010)

In an end of the world scenario, why not buy that recently decommissioned Discovery.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I believe it is committed to the Smithsonian.


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Having cruised and knowing what it takes to outfit a boat to liveaboard, and also the conditions you could be bringing her in... spend up to $250k on the boat (this should get you a nice older Passport, Tayana, Hylas, or any number of other bluewater boats) and spend the other $200k on outfitting (you'll easily be able to do this - liferaft and other safety gear, windgen, solars, watermaker, genset, electronics, spare parts, possibly a new engine, standing rigging, lifelines, running rigging, sails, etc.).

Also, for two people, I would go with something no longer than 45', preferably in the 40' area (which will restrict the center cockpit choice). You want to be able to handle the sails if you have an electrical or hydraulic failure, and boats larger than 50' make this very difficult. Also, safety wise, there really is little difference between a 40' boat and a 50' boat when mother nature throws her worst at you. If anything, I'd feel safer in a 40' boat since there's less hull to crack, fewer systems, etc. We're looking at 50' boats right now, but that's because we have two kids.

I don't have the link handy but there was a long thread on bluewater boat makes here somewhere... great discussion on brands. Being a Passport owner I love to see other people go down that path, but I can also say that Taiwanese/Chinese boats are some of the best bluewater boats as long as you refit the metalwork (chainplates, rudder cages, etc.).


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

No one has mentioned the Nautor's Swan? Nautor's Swan - Sailing Boats and Yachts
They are kind of like the Bentley's of the sail boat world.


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Swan's are great too - nice and fast and very comfortable cruisers. I believe you can get a 40-45' early 80's Swan for under $250k. The only issue I tend to have with Swan's is that their electrical systems are overly complex, or are just wired for Europe. So... Passport, Tayana, Hylas, Swan, Amel, and a few others.

Of course, you didn't mention where you'd want to go. If you are just looking to stay coastal, or go to the Bahamas, Beneteau's, Catalinas, Hunter's or pretty much any boat would do - and might be more comfortable than a bluewater boat.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

My vote is for a Hylas 47, used and in excellent condition with either newer electronics or no electronics so you can outfit it yourself.

I do know of an older ~50' cruising sailboat in my marina that is fiberglass hull over steel stringers; an amazing looking pilothouse cruiser. It was listing for $165k. Needs going through but it would be a nice world cruiser if it was done up right. The owner passed away before setting off on a circumnav (nearly fully refit), and it has been sitting at the marina for the last 4 years waiting for another owner. If I wanted a "world cruiser" and had $450k to drop into an older boat; that would be the boat for me...

Send me a Private Message (PM) if you want more info...


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

If 450k is only your purchase money and you have more to run the boat, I'd look at an Outbound 46. Not center cockpit, but a great sailor and very well laid out. Solid glass hull... one of the only 'modern' cruising boats that doesn't have a cored hull.

Used boats... so long as the big three have been addressed: rig, engine, deck conditions (especially for a S&S swan), there are many nice boats around that would suit your needs.


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## bdietrich (Aug 25, 2001)

I think this whole discussion is a bit "off the rails". What do you want to do with the boat ? All your original post said was "living aboard a bluewater boat".

If you haven't done this before, let me suggest you won't enjoy crossing oceans. So you don't need a top-reputation world-circling boat.

I'd far rather have a $100K boat and $350K in the bank, than a $350K boat and $100K in the bank. Money = flexibility, security. Suppose you hate or get tired of the boat and want to sell it ? Not easy. Suppose your health starts going downhill ?

Read my web site, especially the "Getting Started" and "Choosing Boat Models" pages: Retire Onto A Sailboat


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## dfhoch (Dec 8, 2002)

*Best Boat for $450 K*

Hands down, buy a Caliber 47. Safe, comfortable, can be well equipped.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Love these threads! We have no idea where the OP is, or where they're planning to cruise. Tropics? High Latitude? etc... so buy the boat _I _really want! :laugher

OP, more info, otherwise you'll get lot's of advice that will have painfully little to do with what _you_ need.


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## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

It's been 6 months. I think he decided to wait out the "end of the world as we know it" in a bunker instead.:laugher

Mike


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## Interaxions (Mar 11, 2011)

Well after months and months of research I figured I would come back with a report -

THERE IS NO SENSE in a 450k boat - one of you was right about spending the 150k on a twenty year old boat, but it is more like 180-279 on a thirty year old boat that makes sense, like a norseman 447 vagabond - the morgan look old or beat up, but some formosas out there seem to be in interesting shape - otherwise you have to make a leap to 775 to the one mil range on the near new stuff, all the pretty one's, but expensive if the break untired and untrue....I will let you know when I am on the water - as far as the "End" is concerned...here is a little tidbit ala "You heard it WHERE first?" earthquake to hit Atlanta and more going up East coast - protests are a farc of manipulation to prepare for martial law but will be intercepted by natural disasters -state of emergency either way....so THANKS guys - this Secular Liberal New York Irish Jew plans to have a blast sailing...not tellin' where!LMAO -YET


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## Interaxions (Mar 11, 2011)

Anyone have any thoughts on the Hudson Force 50? I also Like the tayana 48 - but a little pricey considering what you can get for less.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

bljones said:


> Okay, assuming this is even remotely real, here is what I would do:
> spend $150k on the best 20 year old 50'er I could find. here's why- a boat that old has already taken the depreciation hit, and has likely undergone it's second equipment refit, is on it's second owner who now is too old to feel he can sail her, so you will get a 5 year old engine, and 2 year old electronics at half their installed cost. Then convert the rest of your alleged assets NOW to gold. Now you have hard trading material if the signals received by your tinfoil hat are correct.


I thought the point of the tinfoil hat was to DEFLECT the alien mind control signals?

Stop Alien Abductions

I know, I know, it's a bit off topic


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## Interaxions (Mar 11, 2011)

*he who laughs best...*

Laughs last...


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

MarkSF said:


> I thought the point of the tinfoil hat was to DEFLECT the alien mind control signals?


 Only if worn with the shiny side out. if the shiny side is against your cranium it acts like a Naboobian Wormhole amplifier. At least that is what Han told me the last time I made the Kessel run.

This is what the government really doesn't want you to know.


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

See Charlie Cobra , he will fix you up with a 450k boat for around 75k.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

RXBOT said:


> See Charlie Cobra , he will fix you up with a 450k boat for around 75k.


How about I sell you my 40K boat for 450K? You'll make it back in slip fees and maintenance costs, eventually.


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

Umm, I'm glad this post came back, because I missed commenting on it in the Spring. It looks to me as the obvious has been overlooked and to a great degree.

If one is "convinced" that the world, as we know it, is about to end, then why in the world would price/money/cost even be a factor. FINANCE IT!!! That's right. Go down swinging is what I say. It's not like there'll be anyone left to collect on the debt, right? Buy one of those $1Million boats and enjoy what time you have left!

Then, you can take your 450k and nestle it away securely in the giant V-berth. Although, that does lead me to the question, "How will there be 36k a year in 'income' if everything as we know it, fails?".....hmmmm?


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

If the world comes to an end, I don't want to be on a boat! I want to be in an aircraft watching it!


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## ArcherBowman (Jul 1, 2009)

So - guys, I've been doing a lot of reading. I'm getting ready to by the Retirement Boat. (Purchase is a few years off - I need a stock market turnaround first.) Are Pilot House boats the crappy sailors some people think they are? I mean, the idea of being able to be at the helm indoors during crappy weather is very tempting.


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## safira (May 10, 2010)

Personally I would not purchase a boat made after 1984, in 85 they started to learn the skimping on the fiberglass techniques. as to the size bigger does not make it better, It needs to be something that the two of you can handle when sailing.
I have single-handed a circumnavigation with a 40' morgan pilot-house ketch.
you may always upgrade equipment, but do not go totally overboard when you do. There is a lot of items on the market, while you think you may need them, you actually do not. Just use your head!!!!


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

LandLocked66c said:


> If the world comes to an end, I don't want to be on a boat! I want to be in an aircraft watching it!


Where will you land when the fuel runs out?


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

MarkSF said:


> Where will you land when the fuel runs out?


Hopefully on a $450K yacht!


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