# Newbie Looking for Advice



## Tblazer99 (Sep 18, 2021)

Howdy. Yes, I'm sort of putting the cart before the horse. Finally ready to make the plunge into sailing, e.g., coastal cruising and possible long-term goal of ocean passage (5+ years down the road). Retired early and have checked off much of what was on my bucket list. I have plenty of time on the water but minimal time sailing (experience is small motorboats in the ocean, tuna fishing on chartered boats, a mate a few decades ago on daily/nightly party fishing boats in the Atlantic, bay sailing a few times, dock worker as a teen unloading fishing boats, years at sea on U.S. Navy ships). Went through a few nasty squalls on small boats back in the day.

In the process of lining up sailing school, training, etc. Have been doing quite a bit of online research on boats. Likely just me and the wife--possibly one other crew member. My wife will be more a passenger than a sailor. Trying to narrow down the type of sailboat I want, capabilities, "sailability," long-term livability, etc. I just don't like the inside looks of newer boats, so I'm not averse to buying an older boat if it's capable and fundamentally in good condition. I expect to do plenty of maintenance and repair and spend $ in the process. Came across this boat and wanted to ask what you think:

47′ Gulfstar 47 Sailmaster | Cruising Yachts.

-Price reasonable?
-Would I need another crewmember to sail it?
-Capable off-shore cruiser? Passage?
-Safe, relatively speaking if sailed right, on a long voyage and the possible seas that go along with that?
-Anything particularly important but not covered in the yacht specifications and details? Seems like most everything is covered except last bottom scrub and bottom paint.

It will be a while before I'm ready to buy. But I wanted to get smart on how to review online listings, so when I'm ready to consult a professional broker for their support I can do it smartly. I realize that precedes comprehensive survey, sea trial, etc.

Lastly, I don't want a used boat that has been chartered out heavily. Are there ways to spot that in listings?

Thanks,

Ed
.


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## Jolly Roger (Oct 11, 2013)

You are right to learn the various issues of any model you fancy, but it's a bit academic to examine a specific boat now, since it will be _"a while before I'm ready to buy" _and anything you look at now will be gone by whenever, "_a while_" is. 
That Gulfstar looks very nice indeed-but so it should, at well over half a million.
Whether the price is reasonable is also mute without a thorough survey, and prices fluctuate wildly according to financial conditions. At the moment they a relatively high and good boats sell fast.
Most cruising boats in the 45' foot and above range are good sea boats. Two masts are generally better than one, because individual sails are smaller and offer more permutations, according to the weather.
Nobody can say whether you will need a crew by the time you are ready. It will depend on how much experience you gain by then, and the rig of the boat you buy. Another is your age and health.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Where are you located? Notice this boat is in San Diego. Near you? I am a fan of looking first at boats near you. Makes logistics so much easier.

Seems like a lot for a boat from the 70s, and not what I would pick since you are looking a number of years out. And looks like a lot of boat for a couple where the wife is a passenger. At this point you don't know what you might need on a boat. I would suggest starting now with a smaller boat (maybe 30-35 feet) and get some experience. Then if you really want to set off and go cruising full-time, you will know what you like and want and what kind of boat to look for.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I think that Gulfstar is a good MOTORsailer. 

With that said it is too early to say if it is a good boat, or even a good boat for YOU. If you plan to cruise, but feel a motorsailor is right for you, skip the sail part and get a power boat. There really is not reason to have a boat with sails unless you want to sail.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Tblazer99 said:


> 47′ Gulfstar 47 Sailmaster | Cruising Yachts.
> 
> -Price reasonable?
> -Would I need another crewmember to sail it?
> ...


The Gulfstar Sailmaster would make a decent choice as a comfortable live aboard. But they would be near the bottom of a list as a distance cruiser or a platform on which to learn to sail. 
But to answer your questions: 
-Price reasonable?
Grossly excessive for this make and model. Price should be closer to $100,000 given the poor build quality of these boats. For example here is one in Florida. 1979 Gulfstar 47 Sailmaster Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - for $85,000.

-Would I need another crewmember to sail it?
If you were a skilled sailor, you could set one up to be handled by a couple, but under no circumstances would these be a good choice as a single-hander, and would be very difficult to dock shorthanded given the vast amount of windage on these boats. More relasitically, you would want a crew of 4 for a distance passage because boats like these are hard on crew.

-Capable off-shore cruiser? Passage?
Almost any boat is capable of an offshore passage with the right weather window, but this would be an extremely poor choice on all counts (suitability of the design, ease of handling, seaworthiness, build quality, etc), as a distance cruiser.

-Safe, relatively speaking if sailed right, on a long voyage and the possible seas that go along with that?
No., Not without a lot of serious modifications.

-Anything particularly important but not covered in the yacht specifications and details? Seems like most everything is covered except last bottom scrub and bottom paint.
Once you learn more about how to sail, you will better understand what makes a good distance voyager. Once you better understand what makes a good platform for distance voyaging then you will also understand that this ad is about boat that someone spent a lot of money buying a ton of stuff but dumped on the wrong boat. The sheer number of shiny objects may seem appealing, but in real terms that all simply amounts to putting lipstick on a pig. But also much of the 'upgrades' are either normal maintenance and are already at their use by date if the goal is distance cruising.

Jeff


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## Michael Bailey (Sep 10, 2021)

Ok. You don't want "the boat" right now. You want a starter boat. A good used boat that is fairly simple and forgiving yet responsive so your mistakes should be immediately discernible. There is a steep learning curve if you are really going to "go for it". Boats are expensive, labor intensive, frustrating, dangerous, ect. As well as beautiful, romantic, adventurous, interesting, etc. Best to figure out how they fit you and your spouse's life. I have seen couples get divorced because of sailboat cruising dreams versus reality. Maybe a Catalina 30 or a Cal 34 would be a good start for both you and your wife. A Catalina 27 or something that size might be better for you but maybe not your wife. Things are a bit smaller and easier to handle. They are very good sailors too. Are you both still healthy, agile and strong? Prone to motion sickness? It makes a big difference on how to approach life on boats.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Calculate what has been spent it in the last 10 years. That's what you will be spending in the next 10 years.

And its a Quarter of a MILLION dollars. US Dollars! They're not New Zealand squinklebeckers but real dollars with green stuff on them.
That price + the first few years reconditioning expenses you could look at a good 40ft catamaran which has twice the living space as this 47 footer.

But don't dispare, it's the first boat you've looked at. It's like buying a house 🏡, you want to walk through 100 before you consider popping out your first offer. Only by seeing 100 different types of boats will you be able to narrow it down.

Oh, and forget a crew member. That's about $100k per year for pay, medical, Anual repatriation for vacations, food etc.
Get a modern boat you can sail by yourself 😀😀😀


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Because you stated "looking for advice," I'll give you some; GO SAILING on other people's boatS before you start looking for a boat of your own. You can sign up on the Go Sailing App - iPhone/Android website and look for opportunities.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

While you're all talking about the boat let me be the voice of reason (or guilt) and try and make you aware that a passenger on a passage is more of a liability then crew. What if you fell overboard? Who's going to help you get back on the boat? Many many boats leave the harbor only to come back two days later under tow when the dream became reality. 
Not saying this is you but it reads like.....


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## 22catcapri (Feb 21, 2017)

If it's just the two of you, your wife will need to be more than a passenger. Both of you, get a bareboat class. Charter in the Caribbean. My wife and I decided we love charters, but open passaging, eh, not for us. Which is why we bought a nifty day sailer to get our fix, and sleep at the house.


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## Tblazer99 (Sep 18, 2021)

JimsCAL said:


> Where are you located? Notice this boat is in San Diego. Near you? I am a fan of looking first at boats near you. Makes logistics so much easier.
> 
> Seems like a lot for a boat from the 70s, and not what I would pick since you are looking a number of years out. And looks like a lot of boat for a couple where the wife is a passenger. At this point you don't know what you might need on a boat. I would suggest starting now with a smaller boat (maybe 30-35 feet) and get some experience. Then if you really want to set off and go cruising full-time, you will know what you like and want and what kind of boat to look for.


Okay. I'm in the Midwest but travel to San Diego a few times a year. Making a trip to FL in 2-3 weeks. If I were to buy say a 30 ft boat and really like sailing, then I'd need to sell that boat and upgrade to something larger. Is is easier to sell a smaller boat?


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## Tblazer99 (Sep 18, 2021)

eherlihy said:


> Because you stated "looking for advice," I'll give you some; GO SAILING on other people's boatS before you start looking for a boat of your own. You can sign up on the Go Sailing App - iPhone/Android website and look for opportunities.


Okay. I found that website a few weeks ago and have been exploring possibilities. Thanks.


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## Tblazer99 (Sep 18, 2021)

Don L said:


> I think that Gulfstar is a good MOTORsailer.
> 
> With that said it is too early to say if it is a good boat, or even a good boat for YOU. If you plan to cruise, but feel a motorsailor is right for you, skip the sail part and get a power boat. There really is not reason to have a boat with sails unless you want to sail.


Interesting. Need to think on that. Thanks.


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## Tblazer99 (Sep 18, 2021)

deniseO30 said:


> While you're all talking about the boat let me be the voice of reason (or guilt) and try and make you aware that a passenger on a passage is more of a liability then crew. What if you fell overboard? Who's going to help you get back on the boat? Many many boats leave the harbor only to come back two days later under tow when the dream became reality.
> Not saying this is you but it reads like.....


I agree somewhat. In a tough spot. My wife has always been the companion traveler but not always a co-lead. She would help on watch, cabin duties, maybe navigation but not so much on the physical side of things. I've done a lot of crazy and adventuresome things in my life. Never not followed through with an endeavor once I started. Sailing would likely be no different. I have the means, the health, and the motivation. Slowly putting a multi-year plan together. I could be smarter on the order in which I approach...hence the early line in my post "...cart before the horse..."

Lots of good advice so far. Thanks.



MarkofSeaLife said:


> I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Calculate what has been spent it in the last 10 years. That's what you will be spending in the next 10 years.
> 
> And its a Quarter of a MILLION dollars. US Dollars! They're not New Zealand squinklebeckers but real dollars with green stuff on them.
> That price + the first few years reconditioning expenses you could look at a good 40ft catamaran which has twice the living space as this 47 footer.
> ...


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## Tblazer99 (Sep 18, 2021)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Calculate what has been spent it in the last 10 years. That's what you will be spending in the next 10 years.
> 
> And its a Quarter of a MILLION dollars. US Dollars! They're not New Zealand squinklebeckers but real dollars with green stuff on them.
> That price + the first few years reconditioning expenses you could look at a good 40ft catamaran which has twice the living space as this 47 footer.
> ...


Thanks. I'm reading every post carefully and learning along the way.


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## Tblazer99 (Sep 18, 2021)

Tblazer99 said:


> Thanks. I'm reading every post carefully and learning along the way.


I appreciate your advice.


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## Jolly Roger (Oct 11, 2013)

There are indeed some good sensible replies here for any new, and hopeful, sailors. And the amazing thing is it’s still on the subject—so far anyway.
The best is for you to get sailing, any which way you can, and actually talk to experienced people about what you want, or think you want, to do.
JR.


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## Tblazer99 (Sep 18, 2021)

Jolly Roger said:


> There are indeed some good sensible replies here for any new, and hopeful, sailors. And the amazing thing is it's still on the subject-so far anyway.
> The best is for you to get sailing, any which way you can, and actually talk to experienced people about what you want, or think you want, to do.
> JR.


I'm taking from your post and many others to first "get sailing, any which way..." My plan is to go to sailing school, then try and sign up on "Find a Crew" to get experience. Then I'll likely move (not my whole home, just via my RV to an RV park) to probably Florida or SOCAL on the coast. I have friends and relatives in both places, and have lived there before. Need to spend time in a sailing culture. Can one join a yacht club before they own a boat? I'm guessing contacts in a yacht club would be very helpful. Maybe even buy a boat from someone who's ready to sell.


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## Tblazer99 (Sep 18, 2021)

Jeff_H said:


> The Gulfstar Sailmaster would make a decent choice as a comfortable live aboard. But they would be near the bottom of a list as a distance cruiser or a platform on which to learn to sail.
> But to answer your questions:
> -Price reasonable?
> Grossly excessive for this make and model. Price should be closer to $100,000 given the poor build quality of these boats. For example here is one in Florida. 1979 Gulfstar 47 Sailmaster Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - for $85,000.
> ...


Thanks. Very informative and I appreciate your frankness.

Luke


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## Tblazer99 (Sep 18, 2021)

Michael Bailey said:


> Ok. You don't want "the boat" right now. You want a starter boat. A good used boat that is fairly simple and forgiving yet responsive so your mistakes should be immediately discernible. There is a steep learning curve if you are really going to "go for it". Boats are expensive, labor intensive, frustrating, dangerous, ect. As well as beautiful, romantic, adventurous, interesting, etc. Best to figure out how they fit you and your spouse's life. I have seen couples get divorced because of sailboat cruising dreams versus reality. Maybe a Catalina 30 or a Cal 34 would be a good start for both you and your wife. A Catalina 27 or something that size might be better for you but maybe not your wife. Things are a bit smaller and easier to handle. They are very good sailors too. Are you both still healthy, agile and strong? Prone to motion sickness? It makes a big difference on how to approach life on boats.


I will check out the Catalinas for sure. Thanks.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

I suggest you learn how to look at a propective boat before you go much further down this road.


Marine Survey 101, pre-survey inspection


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I think that this thread has been a good one in terms of turning away from the initial, "should I buy this boat" to a discussion of how someone gets into sailing and distance voyaging. I apologize that some of this is taken from an article that I had written quite a few years ago. 

The dream of voyaging under sail can be a powerful one. From the advice that you may have already received and are likely to receive you can tell that there will not be a consensus of opinion on how to go distance cruising. There was a period when several times a month I would receive an email from someone who is considering doing just what you are proposing; learning to sail and eventually going distance voyaging. I have watched literally dozens of folks go through this. Some are successful in getting 'out there', some discover that they simply enjoying sailing and find that they really have no need to 'go out there’; some have discovered that the sailing life is just not for them, and others have not even gotten past the dreaming stage.

From what I have seen, the most successful have been the ones who have been somewhat systematic about going. There is a lot to learn before one can safely venture offshore. No one would assume that they could buy a jet airliner take a few lessons and be able to fly around the world. I think most rational people would expect to start with a small plane and work their way up. But for some reason people assume that they can just go out and buy a big boat, take a couple lessons, read a few books, and then go safely cruising.

While there are people who literally taken a few lessons, read a few books and successfully gone cruising, those who were successful following that route are far more rare than those who have done some kind of apprenticeship. Learning to sail and learning to cruise, and gathering a reasonable level of knowledge before they went. No matter how much you know, there will always be more to learn, but I suggest that you at least take the time to learn the basics. As a basic fact, having taught literally hundreds of people to sail on all kinds of boats, in my experience the bigger the boat the steeper the learning curve, and therefore the more frustrating the process will be if you buy ‘a big sailboat’ and try to learn.

I find myself saying this a lot lately, but here I go again. We all come to sailing with our own specific needs, our own specific goals and our own specific capabilities. The neat thing about sailing is that we all don’t have to agree that there is only one right way to go sailing. There is no more truth in expecting that there is one universally right answer about many aspects of sailing than there is in trying to prove that vanilla ice cream is universally better than strawberry ice cream. One area of sailing for which there is no one universally right answer involves the amount of knowledge one requires to go sailing. The other is what is the right boat to own.

For some, all they need or want to know about sailing is just enough knowledge to safely leave the slip sail where they want and get back safely. There is nothing inherently wrong with that approach. Lack of knowledge will impact the level of risk, cost, comfort, and performance, but if you want to get out there with minimal knowledge it can be done. But for others, like myself, there is much more to sailing than simply developing a rudimentary knowledge of sailing basics. If you fall into that camp, it is next to impossible to learn to sail really well on a boat as large as the one in question.

While I am in no way suggesting that this makes sense for everyone, for those who really want to learn to sail well, I strongly suggest that they start out owning a used 23 to 30foot, responsive, light-weight, tiller steered, fin keel/spade rudder (ideally fractionally rigged) production fiberglass sloop (or if they are athletically inclined then a dinghy.) Boats like these provide the kind of feedback that is so necessary to teach a newcomer how to really sail well. Boats like these have small enough loads on lines and the helm that everyone involved can participate and learn together. If there are other people involved, especially if there are children, having everyone involved and being able to learn and participate will typically result in each person becoming more engaged and less likely to be bored and feel kidnapped. But most importantly, boats under 30 feet provide quick responses to changes in course, or windspeed or sail trim. Those tactile responses provide information to the new sailor that helps them quickly sense and better understand the interactions between wind, water, and the boat.

By sailing well, I mean understanding the nuances of boat handling and sail trim in a way that is extremely difficult to learn on a larger boat. Used small boats generally hold their values quite well so that after a year or even few years or so of learning, you should be able to get most of your money out of the small boat and move on to a bigger boat actually knowing much more about which specific desirable characteristics of a boat appeal to you as an experienced sailor rather than the preferences of some stranger on some Internet discussion group. 

Starting out accidents will happen, with a small boat the forces are small and so injuries are generally minor, and the cost or repairs quite small. But the huge forces on a bigger boat increase the likelihood of someone being badly injured, maimed or worse, and having repairs that are far in excess of the purchase price of a smaller boat.

The argument that newbies often throw out is the nuisance and expense of buying a small boat and reselling it. That argument is largely based on fallacy. You can often find a 30 or less footer for under $10,000US that is in good condition. Even if you sold the small boat for half of what you paid for it, you would still come out ahead of the difference in cost between a one year slip for a 30 vs 40 plus foot boat, or the insurance for a couple years, or even basic maintenance.

Any work the small boat needs will help you better understand boat maintenance at minimal financial risk. So for example, i work at West Marine one night a week. A few weeks ago a family came needing all new running rigging for a 28 footer they had just bought for roughly $6K. I suggested VPC for halyards and jib sheets, and Stayset for the traveler, topping lift and mainsheet. In total that was around $350.00 in line. He bought a fid kit and planned to learn to splice on the internet. This week a family came in with amid-40 foot cruiser, that needed all of its running rigging replaced. My estimate of the cost of that line was closer to $4-5,000.

In any event, I strongly agree with the idea that at the very least you try to get some sailing lessons. I think that sailing with others is also a great way to get a toe in the water. But nothing beats the experience of having a lot of time on the water, experiencing a broad range of conditions while in command of your own small boat. Beyond that if I were in your shoes, I would sit down and put together a list of all of the things that I would want to know before I set off voyaging such as:
• Boat handling
• Sail trim
• Rules of the road
• Weather
• Routing
• Boat husbandry, repair and maintenance
• Diesel/ gas engine maintenance and repair
• First aid
• Heavy weather tactics
• Legal restrictions on leaving and entering foreign countries
• Navigation, (Piloting, dead reckoning, electronic, and maybe the basics of Celestial)
• Provisioning
• Radio operators license exam requirements
• Safe and dangerous fish to eat
• Survival skills
• Yacht design basics including desirable and undesirable features
• Etc………..

Once you have what you think is a complete list, it might be helpful set up a schedule to try to develop any of those areas of skill that you currently feel you are lacking. As much as possible I would try to involve all those involved to learn as many of those aspects as each is capable of understanding. This process could take as little as a year, but more often takes two to three years. The process itself can be very rewarding and can build the kind of bonds that are required to be cast away on that oh so small island that a boat underway represents.

After sailing for a few years you should be able to further define your goals and develop your own sense of what is the right size and type of boat to do what ever you choose as your course.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Whilst I appreciate Jeff's thoughts very much, and I had a very long sailing experience before I own'ed my first boat.. Indeed I sailed since I was 12. However I feel that many sailors put too much emphasis on the difficulty of sailing. 
If a person retires now at 50 or 60 from a profession of intellect, with cash to buy a boat big enough to cruise the world, then I say buy it and go now. I say that because if the person has been in a career where they've had to use their brain, an engineer, the sciences, a lawyer, doctor, academic, etc etc then the art or science of sailing is really quite simple and a few months with lessons and Cruising For Dummies on their knee, then they're probable set to make their own voyages of increasing lengths.
Those of a Trade background, plumbers, electricians, farmers, police, military, are probably even better suited for a quick take off because their hands dirty
experience means an engine room is not a shocking new world. 

Modern cruising boats are not made for racing.. They are kitted out for lazy people willing to forsake that extra half knot by installing aysemteric spinnakers that don't need spinakker poles, furling mains without reefing lines, jibs that don't need tacking etc etc. 

I was shocked the other day to see a cruising boat with running back stays. The couple are new to sailing and didn't know how to clip them forward to shrouds to get them out of the way when not in use... No modern cruising boat has them! 

My thoughts are if a person has a brain they can go get a modern boat and head off into dream world in a very short time. Responsibly. Safely. Enjoyably. 

Sailing is just not that hard. 



Mark.


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