# Debating CS27 or C&C 27



## grenlin87 (Jul 22, 2019)

Hi all

I've introduced myself a couple of weeks back and started doing some research into "starter" under 30ft boats for day sailing and perhaps a weekend camping. 

I always seem to come right back to the CS27 and C&C27 with occasional peeks at the C&C30. I have never sailed/owned a boat that size(only a 15ft O'Day Beaver) and I'll be getting my sailing certificate in June.. I understand that one would naturally progress from a tiny sailboat onto larger and larger boat however knowing myself, I'll be annoyed with how impractical the tiny cabin-less boats are.. 

Any advice is greatly appreciated! 
Matt


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

I think between the CS and C&C it really comes down to which one you like better. Pretty similar boats. The extra 3 feet you occasionally look adds a lot of boat which will also increase costs. Not much you can learn on a 30 that you won't on a 27.

If your plan is really to learn on this boat and go to a larger one, I'd steer you to the 27s. If the idea of an upgrade down the line is less certian, I'd think more about the 30's.

Is your sailing ground Lake of the Woods?


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## grenlin87 (Jul 22, 2019)

PhilCarlson said:


> Is your sailing ground Lake of the Woods?


Yes the Lake of the Woods will be my pond for several years to come. Looks to be full of opportunities for good day sailing and camping.

I do plan on going up in size once I feel confident in handling the 27

Are there many things to be very mindful of looking at used late 70's 80's cs or cc 27? Other than the obvious water stains, soft spots(which areas), engine mounts, bilge area?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

grenlin87 said:


> I understand that one would naturally progress from a tiny sailboat onto larger and larger boat however knowing myself, I'll be annoyed with how impractical the tiny cabin-less boats are..


Not necessarily no, there is often some up and down in size until folks find the right size for them. Personally, a 30 foot boat would be pushing the limits of what I would want on an inland lake.

As far as CS27 vs C&C 27, I would pick whichever one is in better condition and to a lesser extent which ever one is better equipped.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Whether one needs to start that small and walk up the ladder in such small increments, is really dependent on their aptitude for the sport. Not all learn at the same pace. 

As an analogy, private pilots start in small two seat piston propeller trainers, then move to four seats, then maybe some complex attributes, like retractable landing gear, etc, etc. Most never make it far enough up the curve to sit in a turbine driven propeller aircraft, let alone a jet. 

Contrast that to the military trainee, who's first ride is a turbine driven prop (they never fly the equivalent of our sailing dinghies) and are solo in a jet in fewer hours than most private pilots take to first graduate to retractable landing gear. However, the military is brutal on filtering aptitude. You get washed out, if it doesn't come relatively easy (compared to most anyway). 

Personally, I see no practical difference in learning to sail a 27 from a 30. I'm not bragging up my aptitude, only suggesting the slow walk up the ladder can be exaggerated. It's really up to you.


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

grenlin87 said:


> Are there many things to be very mindful of looking at used late 70's 80's cs or cc 27? Other than the obvious water stains, soft spots(which areas), engine mounts, bilge area?


Yes. All of the above and more. Here is something to read that will give yuo some more ideas about that. Marine Survey 101, pre-survey inspection There is much more information out there.

In general as I don't know either boat particularly well, but I own a 1976 North Star 26 which is similar in design and build to the C&C.

Good signs: Boat is sailed regularly. Is clean and obviously well maintained (Owner has records of professional services, etc...) Motors that have sat for a while can be ok but can develop problems, and unused boats decay faster than active boats.

Important things to look for that may be deal-breakers: Evidence of water intrusion, particularly around the chain plates. Condition of the main bulkhead at the chain plates, if it's rotted, it's a big job to fix.

Keel bolts, bilge frames/stringers: Keel bolts and rods should be free of excess corrosion. Replacing the rods (J-hooks) on a lead keel is expensive, often exceeding the value of the boat.

Damage to the keel indicating a hard grounding. This can lead to all sorts of invisible problems due to the impact or inadequate repairs.

Stringers and frames under the floor should be Fiberglass or glass encased wood. Look for signs of water intrusion and rot, particularly under the compression post. My boat had an exposed wood stringer under the compression post that had rotted away so completely that it took a while for me to realize it had ever existed. It was a major structural problem I was fortunate to be able to repair. If it's a keel stepped mast, check the condition of the mast step, possibly metallic and corroded.

Electrical: Make sure you understand what you have. If it's all professionally wired, understand the condition and what maintence you will need to do, if it's a DIY ratnest understand what needs to be replaced. Most boat fires are electrical, and boats tend to burn fast, which is hard on the crew.

In any case, the boat will teach you boat systems. Just remember, the boat will teach you at the boat's pace.

Hopefully someone with specific experience on these models will chime in. Good luck!


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

I own a CS 27. 

The C & C will most likely be faster, but I'm not sure if that matters really. Both are well made boats. The CS is the sturdier of the two and weighs more. Some also come with 4' draft, (lead), which may be nice for your lake. 

All CS's come with a diesel engine, most c & c's do not.

Cs's have heads with holding tanks, some c & c's have porta potties.

The CS will generally be a bit cheaper to purchase, I have no idea why prices are lower. 

It's a simple boat, and one you can bash about without worry. 

I'm sure their are advantages of the C & C, I'm just not that familiar enough with the boat to know them. 

As always, buy the one in better condition.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

From some visits aboard both models, the CS Yacht looks to be better built and a bit roomier inside. It's a Ray Wall (sp?) design which is a great pedigree.
Some C&C designs from the 70's later had much-improved rudders designed for them, and this popular model might be one. 
As hinted at here, condition and a good survey will tell the tale. It's been enough decades that you will likely be re-bedding ports and all hardware.
Not sure how the hull-to-deck joint was done on the CS, but it was a full-overlap (very strong) on the C&C.

Lots to assess, and it's nice to be choosing between decently designed boats !
Keep us posted...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

There is no fundamental difference in skill required to operate a 30' compared to a 27' - there's just not that much difference in size. A big 27' like the C&C is the same "size" as a small 30'. The old C&C 27' and 30' from the 70's have to be seen side by side to tell the difference. 

All the boats you listed are good boats - pick the best one at the best price and don't worry about if you can handle it. FWIW many people regard the CS boats as being a tick better constructed than C&C's.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Good advice here on condition of the two choices. Both are well made boats.

I am partial to the build of C&C s as they have developed and made continuous improvements over the years
C&C still exists though it has morphed being part of the Tartan cadre.

C&C are great handling boats in general. Precise exact steering, not sluggish.

Most C&C owners have bought them because the their overall competitiveness in speed. Their build quality not only physically, but their design.

Most C&C owners buy them because of the combination of speed but also comfort. Most C&Cs have found the perfect blend for the cruiser and the racer.

Build quality is evident as C&C are still sailing and in good condition 40-50 after they were first built. You will easily be able to resell it if you increase in size.

Lastly , because C&C is still a strong brand which has survived there is a robust well organized current C&C owners association and group. The website contains upgrades on each size as well as a network to work with on similar build issues and improvements..I suggest joining it before you decide on which boat you buy .

C&C Yachts - C&C Photo Album & Resource Center

If it is good condition....stay with the C&C


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## grenlin87 (Jul 22, 2019)

Holy 
You guys are awesome. Thank you all for the advice! I see there's more to check than I initially thought and I'll be sure to keep you up to date on my findings!
There are currently several cs and cc 27 on Kijiji. Unfortunately they're all at least 16hr drive away.. time will tell.

Thanks again.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Im partial of course, I have a CS30. Well built etc. Gelcoat is pristine for a 32 YO Boat, not as wide as a 30MkIII C&C so good and bad I guess. For speed as you would guess pretty equal, though I'm winning a lot more long and short races against my favorite MkIII. You will easily find more, and more models to choose from in C&C, just so many more made. There are two 30s and a 40 in the lower Chesapeake, more up the bay I suppose where C&C is, aside from Catalinas, the most popular around.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

grenlin87 said:


> Holy
> You guys are awesome. Thank you all for the advice! I see there's more to check than I initially thought and I'll be sure to keep you up to date on my findings!
> There are currently several cs and cc 27 on Kijiji. Unfortunately they're all at least 16hr drive away.. time will tell.
> 
> Thanks again.


There are 10 cs 27's at my marina in Toronto. In various states of "oh dear" to "wow". Not sure if any of them for sale - well probably the oh "oh dear" ones. You can come for a sail on mine if you ever make the trip. You can read about the 3 year refit done by the previous owner here if you like: CS 27 - CS27 ~ Ravat


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## grenlin87 (Jul 22, 2019)

Ninefingers said:


> There are 10 cs 27's at my marina in Toronto. In various states of "oh dear" to "wow". Not sure if any of them for sale - well probably the oh "oh dear" ones. You can come for a sail on mine if you ever make the trip. You can read about the 3 year refit done by the previous owner here if you like: CS 27 - CS27 ~ Ravat


I wonder if you're referring to the 1977 CS 27 "RELIANT II" being the ooh dear condition. I hate how photos rarely show the actual condition of the boat.. from what I know the step of the mast is gone and furling foil is bent. Thus asking $4500

I see the cc and cs bouncing around the 5k all the way to high teens


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

grenlin87 said:


> I wonder if you're referring to the 1977 CS 27 "RELIANT II" being the ooh dear condition. I hate how photos rarely show the actual condition of the boat.. from what I know the step of the mast is gone and furling foil is bent. Thus asking $4500
> 
> I see the cc and cs bouncing around the 5k all the way to high teens


It looks okay in the pics, but who knows right? Don't expect that blue hull to look as nice as it is in the picture, that's for sure. They rarely do. Not sure why it needs a mast shoe, but one can found quite easily around here. The furler, well who knows, maybe it's an easy fix. You really don't want a hank on sail. I think the boat is worth a look.

They are easy boats to fix as long as there are no structural issues with lots of parts out there. There are 3 derelict ones in my yard.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

i have to wonder now, how many were built a year in the heyday, my 30 is 1987 and they weren't made much after that. C&C of course kept going. Compared to C&C of course. Anyone know?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

albrazzi said:


> i have to wonder now, how many were built a year in the heyday, my 30 is 1987 and they weren't made much after that. C&C of course kept going. Compared to C&C of course. Anyone know?


About 1000 of the C&C 27 built

https://www.boats.com/reviews/best-seller-with-many-editions/


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## Northeric (May 1, 2014)

Lake of the Woods, lots of islands, lots of rocks. I'd plan for hitting the odd rock and would choose accordingly. My boat has an encapsulated lead keel that's seen some action and lived to tell the tale. Doesn't sink and you learn the fibreglass trade as a bonus. Diesels are nice but you aren't crossing oceans so an A4 or good 4 stroke would be fine. Get a tiller, easier to maneuver in and out of tight spots and feel the rudder. Shallower drafts are practical for gunkholing those little bays and avoiding rocks. A good Bruce anchor, 25 foot chain and Danforth for backup. Trailers are nice to have as well. CS tend to be a better build but bit more money. Whatever you get will be the best 5K or so you ever spent. Cheers


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## Ravven25 (Sep 10, 2019)

chef2sail said:


> About 1000 of the C&C 27 built


Interesting to know. Thought there were only around 500-ish.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Ravven25 said:


> Interesting to know. Thought there were only around 500-ish.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/C&C_27

C&C 27 Assoc ? Evolution


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## grenlin87 (Jul 22, 2019)

Northeric said:


> Lake of the Woods, lots of islands, lots of rocks. I'd plan for hitting the odd rock and would choose accordingly. My boat has an encapsulated lead keel that's seen some action and lived to tell the tale. Doesn't sink and you learn the fibreglass trade as a bonus. Diesels are nice but you aren't crossing oceans so an A4 or good 4 stroke would be fine. Get a tiller, easier to maneuver in and out of tight spots and feel the rudder. Shallower drafts are practical for gunkholing those little bays and avoiding rocks. A good Bruce anchor, 25 foot chain and Danforth for backup. Trailers are nice to have as well. CS tend to be a better build but bit more money. Whatever you get will be the best 5K or so you ever spent. Cheers


Ooh I assure you, I won't be getting anywhere tight. I want to record a few tracks into the more open area, won't be getting anywhere tight unless I'm with a friend that knows the area.

That's some rough hit! How bad was the actual damage?


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## danvon (Dec 10, 2012)

If you think you are going to want a 30-footer anytime in the foreseeable future, consider getting it now. Our first keelboat was a 27 (Catalina if it matters) because I was concerned about handling something larger. That turns out to be a non-issue. Should have bought a bigger boat then. The 33 that we have now is actually easier in many respects (inboard v. outboard makes a hell of a difference, for one thing). 

Switching boats takes time effort & $$$ - if you think you want the bigger one it probably makes more sense to do it right the first time. A 30 footer will likely not cost all that much more than a 27 to buy and the difference in moorage costs is modest. sails will cost a little more but you don't do that often. Other maintenance issues will be similar unless tha larger boat has more stuff on it (more complicated galley, plumbing, etc.).


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

chef2sail said:


> About 1000 of the C&C 27 built
> 
> https://www.boats.com/reviews/best-seller-with-many-editions/


The CS 27 is a Canadian sailboat, that was designed by Raymond Wall and first built in 1975. The design is out of production. The boat was built by CS Yachts in Canada, with 480 examples completed between 1975 and 1983, when production ended.
No. built: 480
Builder(s): CS Yachts
Boat weight: 6,100 lb (2,767 kg)
Year: 1975
CS 27 - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › CS_27

For comparison. I guess GOOGLE does know everything:wink


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

CS 30
Development
Designer	Tony Castro
Location	Canada
Year	1984
No. built	500
28 more rows
CS 30 - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › CS_30

C&C 30 Mk 1
Designer	Cuthbertson & Cassian
Location	Canada
Year	1973
No. built	800 (Mark 1s)
Builder(s)	C&C Yachts

500 CS30
800 Just Mk 1
Not clear ow many Mk2s still looking..

Pretty good indication of what will be available. 
I don't know how either were marketed, shipped for remote delivery etc. this will to some extent determine how they are spread around the world.


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## grenlin87 (Jul 22, 2019)

Speaking of 30 footers, does anyone have some good information about the C&C Mega 30 design? There seems to be very little on the net that I could find. 
There was a racer one named Whirlwind30 in Toronto area but I can't get anything on his Mega or the races to begin with.. 
Was the flat THAT unpopular??


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

grenlin87 said:


> Speaking of 30 footers, does anyone have some good information about the C&C Mega 30 design? There seems to be very little on the net that I could find.
> There was a racer one named Whirlwind30 in Toronto area but I can't get anything on his Mega or the races to begin with..
> Was the flat THAT unpopular??


I recall some articles about a restored one in PBO -- belonged to the editor, IIRC.


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## deepaksh (Sep 18, 2019)

Thank you for good advice


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