# Which blue water boat do you see most often?



## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I came into this forum to send this message and got distracted into the other thread. Anyway, I mentioned in one of those messages that you see an enormous range of boats out cruising but it occurred to me that there is one brand of boat that you see more than any other.

The answer is ... Amel. I am sitting at a marina in Australia and I can see three Amels from my boat - all European registration so they are halfway around the world from home. Any time we were in anchorage with 10 or so boats in it there seemed to be at least one Amel. I can't imagine that they have built too many of these since they are big and expensive (all seem to variations of a theme at 53' or 54' feet). Seems like those who buy them, use them for their intended purpose.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

killarney_sailor said:


> Seems like those who buy them, use them for their intended purpose.


That's good. Too many people new to sailing buy a boat for the way they _think_ they will want to boat in five to ten years and not for the way they boat _now_. Or, they think it's better (and more impressive) to buy as much boat as they can afford. Then they realize that an offshore-capable boat is more expensive to maintain, to store, to operate in the water where they sail and want (or need) out before the dream is realized.

Our (current) goal is to some day cruise the coast of South America. In the meantime we're in the Upper Chesapeake Bay and realistically can barely get to the bottom of the Bay and back within the amount of vacation days work allows. The expense of an offshore-capable boat right now would be a waste of money.


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

Hello Killarney. Great to see you back onboard. We pulled into Bundaberg a few years ago to find 4 other Petersons in the marina. [5 inc ours]

I agree -Amels and Oysters abound, S & S, many Roberts Offshore etc


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Amel has not made many boats, not at least compared with most known brands included Halberg Rassy.

I guess most of those boats are French because French are the ones that circumnavigate more and that helps because Amel is a French boat. I had recently read an interview with a French that had circumnavigated that said that 80% of the boats they have found circumnavigating were French sailors. I don't know if that is acurate but I am certain that the percentage is high.

French sailors normally sail on French made boats.

I guess that you would also see a fair number of OVNI and Garcia, also French boats that with Amel are the main choice for many Europeans. If the boat has a Nordic flag the chances are that the boat would be a Malo, a Halberg Rassy or a Najad.

But the main reason is that those boats were designed to do extensive cruising, to cross oceans and are modern designs and are available in Europe.

I bet that you don't see Americans sailing on those boats. If you stick only to American sailors circumnavigating I am sure the choice would be different and the boats would be of an older design.

Regards

Paulo


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

PCP said:


> I bet that you don't see Americans sailing on those boats. If you stick only to American sailors circumnavigating I am sure the choice would be different and the boats would be of an older design.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I'm curious how you reached these conclusions?


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

DRFerron said:


> I'm curious how you reached these conclusions?


what conclusions? All of them?

Regards

Paulo


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

PCP said:


> what conclusions? All of them?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


The conclusions that you drew about American circumnavigators: that we won't see them sailing Amels (or did you mean any European-made boat?) and that they sail in older boats.

As I tend to research (some say over research) just about everything, while I go about my research for an offshore boat I would want to figure out if there is a reason behind this that might influence my own choice. So, I wonder what made you reach your conclusions.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Amels with Roberts next.

However the sheer variety of boats that circumnavigate is immense. I know a couple who went round on the small Prout cat, a singlehander on a big ferro schooner and someone halfway round on a Hunter 42. None of those would be ANYWHERE on my list.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

DRFerron said:


> The conclusions that you drew about American circumnavigators: that we won't see them sailing Amels (or did you mean any European-made boat?) and that they sail in older boats.
> 
> As I tend to research (some say over research) just about everything, while I go about my research for an offshore boat I would want to figure out if there is a reason behind this that might influence my own choice. So, I wonder what made you reach your conclusions.


The first conclusion I think it is a fact: Most American circumnavigating tend to sail in American made boats and even if there are some really blue water boats still made by American brands, the boats are old designs, many times decades old designs, some still had a full keel or a mixed keel (not a fin keel).

I know of some Americans that sail in European boats (I am not talking about luxury boats like Oysters) but they tend to be world globe trotters or (and) very knowledgeable people. I am thinking of those two that sail for decades doing movies for cable TV (Southerly) or Cornell that had sailed an OVNI or other well known sailor, magazine and book writer that have chosen a Malo. But I think they are just a small minority.

I am not entering any discussion about the merits of old designs versus new designs, I am only stating that there are dozens of European Brands with purposely made voyage boats with new designs, for all tastes and materials, (Carbon, Epoxy, Fiberglass, Aluminum, Plywood/Epoxy), performance boats, center boarders, medium displacement boats, center cockpit, aft cockpit and deck saloons and this offer exists because there are long range sailors that are buying them and almost all are European.

Regards

Paulo


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

So far this thread is a confirmation of the tenet the "we see what we want to see". There is no way to get meaningful statistics by looking at boats in various anchorages. Fortunately, there are empirical studies out there on the number and type of boats clearing into and out of countries (many of the smaller destination have only one or two ports of entry, making this easier to do). My books are packed away, but I think that Jimmy Cornell's book has a chapter detailing exactly that information; but I might have read that elsewhere. I do recall that there was no clear "winner" boat in that list, though. Perhaps someone with a copy of the Passages book could post some concrete facts.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

At least based on what I have seen, Americans who are off distance cruising tend to do so on Asian built boats more than anything else. On the US east coast and Bahamas, I see a lot of Asian boats like the old Tayanas, Taswells, Passports, Garden designs and knockoff's, and Peterson 44/46's going out and coming back from offshore. 

Out in the Bahamas you see older American/Canadian Designs like Whitby's, Westsails, Brewers, Bristols, Hughes, and Pearson 365's and 424's and the like. You don't see a lot of Roberts. 

Valiants, Pacific Seacraft, Shannon, Hallberg Rassys, and the like are very highly regarded but seem rarer. A lot of newbies seem to buy Island Packets, but its not clear how many actually get out there. 

Jeff


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## Sail The World (Sep 25, 2011)

interesting theories here


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

It would be interesting to see stats on how many boats of various types have been built and how many have sailed (pick a number) say 10,000 miles offshore. I would imagine that there are a lot more Island Packets around (for example) than Amels and yet you see many more Amels far from home.

I don't think that it is surprise that North Americans buy boats aimed at the NA market and Europeans buy boats aimed at the European market. You buy what is available and what you know. 

I think that the Asian boats that Jeff mentions are really an early example of outsourcing of production to Asia when labor costs in NA got to high. A good example would be Bristol packing it in and similar Hood designs being built by Little Harbor. The cruising boat manufacturing district of the US just moved east a bit sooner than most other manufacturing.

I think it is fine to say that some fine offshore boats are being made in Europe (they certainly are) but how many people can afford to go off cruising in a boat that costs well north of $1 million? We have seen many more Europeans cruising on older, smaller boats compared to the newer HRs and the like - really the same as with North Americans. With the economic problems in Europe these days I would imagine that manufacturers of costly boats will be hurting big time.

BTW, we did meet an American couple in American Samoa who were cruising on an Amel - an older one though.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

killarney_sailor said:


> ...
> 
> I think it is fine to say that some fine offshore boats are being made in Europe (they certainly are) but how many people can afford to go off cruising in a boat that costs well north of $1 million? We have seen many more Europeans cruising on older, smaller boats compared to the newer HRs and the like - really the same as with North Americans. With the economic problems in Europe these days I would imagine that manufacturers of costly boats will be hurting big time.
> 
> BTW, we did meet an American couple in American Samoa who were cruising on an Amel - an older one though.


Unfortunately I don't think that the crisis will hit the 1 million or several million boats but more at the middle upper market, like Halberg Rassy or Najad. Well there are Najad and Halberg Rassy that cost more than a million but most of its production cost a lot less than that.

Probably the most popular French voyage boat is the OVNI. Probably there is not other boat that has made so many circumnavigations. OVNI were and are built in relative large numbers and are relatively inexpensive. Really inexpensive if we consider that they are aluminum boats.

Probably the most popular was the 435 that is now, after a long career out of production, but you can find a 2004 good one for around $250 000 and the bigger boat that had substituted it, the 445 costs a bit more than 300 000€. The smaller 395 costs about 250 000€, basic models of course.

Even less expensive and almost as popular as a voyage boat is the RM range. There are not so many as the OVNIS but on the last years more and more boats are being sold.

The average price of a 44ft French voyager boat is about half that USD million you are talking about and I guess about the same or less than one of those 44ft American boats made in China. French voyager boats are the more popular among Europeans. An Amel cost more than a million, but the smaller one is now a 54ft boat and also a luxury boat.

The ones that you see are probably not the new model, but older models that were not as expensive and are smaller boats. They make boats since 1965 and many Meltem, Sharki, Santorin and Maramu are still out there. Only in the mid 90's the Amel started to be really expensive with the Super Maramu that is already a 14/16m sailboat.

A 44ft Halberg Rassy or Najad is more expensive than that (about 500 000€), but that is not a voyage boat, that is a luxury voyage boat

Regards

Paulo


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Interesting thread. OK so this is never going to be a definitive survey but it is interesting to see what people go cruising in. From what I've seen Paulo is correct in his summation re "American" boats. Yeah, he is probably wrong in what he considers are "American" boats but that is an understandable error. Most of us would surely at least think of Passport, Tayana, Taswell and the like as American even though they are or were built in Asia. 

In Sydney and south of Sydney we tend to see the grunty examples ... more likely e.g Passport 40s, Tayanas, Pacific Seacraft and Petersons if American plus Australian examples such as Swanson, Adams and Roberts. The Euro production boats tend to be more locally owned and we don't see a lot of multihulls. The only Amels I have seen in Sydney are local. 

I'm sure this would be seriously different in any anchorage up north and might simply be as a result of the difficulties involved in sailing the NSW coast. Boats coming this far south are probably either coming from or going to Tasmania and would need to be ready for a hard slog, possibly both ways.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Zanshin said:


> So far this thread is a confirmation of the tenet the "we see what we want to see". There is no way to get meaningful statistics by looking at boats in various anchorages. Fortunately, there are empirical studies out there on the number and type of boats clearing into and out of countries (many of the smaller destination have only one or two ports of entry, making this easier to do). My books are packed away, but I think that Jimmy Cornell's book has a chapter detailing exactly that information; but I might have read that elsewhere. I do recall that there was no clear "winner" boat in that list, though. Perhaps someone with a copy of the Passages book could post some concrete facts.


It is not in my copy although i have seen something on a site somewhere that is an analysis of all the types entering his various rallies.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*Are rallies typical?*



TQA said:


> It is not in my copy although i have seen something on a site somewhere that is an analysis of all the types entering his various rallies.


I have seen lists of boats in the ARC and the around the world rally and I don't think the boats are typical of the cruising population. If the rally lists are used it would appear that Oysters are really, really common cruising boats but when you get off the beaten track you do not see them often at all.


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## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

*Sail Indonesia Statistics*

A couple of years ago I was really bored (probably sitting in hospital) so I summarised all the yachts that had participated in the Sail Indoneia rally. This rally starts in Darwin and sails through various Indonesia islands with most boats eventually reaching Singapore. This normally includes lots of circumnavigators so it's not a bad indication of "blue water" boats out there.

A high level summary is below:










Note that the first column refers to the No of boats between 2002 to 2008 and the next three colums refers to the most common length. For example Halberg Rassy was the 2nd most common brand with 17 boats, with the 40ft being the most common length, followed by the 42ft.

As lots of Oz boats participate I am not surprised that Roberts were ranked No 1 and Adams ranked No 3.

I just did a quick sort of the 2008 list by Nationality and it is a real mixed bag. For USA the list included

Brewer
Deerfoot 74PH 
Diesel Duck 462 
Fountaine Pajot 
Grainger MC420 
Hallberg Rassy 
Hans Christian
Jim Young
Kelly Peterson 44 
Kennex
Morgan
Oyster 53 
Pacific Seacraft 
Panda 40 
Pearson
Slocum
Sundeer 60 
Tayana
Tayana 47/48 
Tayana V 42

The total included over 500 different boats, so even the top 5 brands represented less than 20% of the total number. I think there is a very large range of yachts out there circumnavigating so trying to draw conclusions on the most common bluewater boat out there is difficult.

Ilenart


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Here's a useless survey. Several of my dock neighbors travel the eastern seaboard annually, from New England to the Caribbean. Not circumnavigators, but certainly offshore blue water travelers. 

One Hallberg-Rassy
One Swan
One Hylas

The Hunter next to me is going up on the hard with me this year. 

So much for American sailors preferring American made boats.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

killarney_sailor said:


> I have seen lists of boats in the ARC and the around the world rally and I don't think the boats are typical of the cruising population. If the rally lists are used it would appear that Oysters are really, really common cruising boats but when you get off the beaten track you do not see them often at all.


Funny, on that lists you don't find a single Garcia, a Allures or an OVNI but you find mostly big boats (over 44), lots of Jeanneaus DS, some Amel and even a Bavaria 36

Of course, I am sure that the OVNI is now the most popular French voyager boat and we cannot find a single one there, not any Garcia or Allures but mostly boats with a much superior level of interior luxury.

Entry List for World Cruising Club: World Arc

Entry List for World Cruising Club: Atlantic Cup

Entry List for World Cruising Club: Caribbean 1500

Mostly of the guys that buys OVNIS or Garcias are already experimented sailors and would find ridiculous to travel along with a bunch of other guys. The essence of voyaging is the opposite of that it is a lonely and personal experience. I guess that most of owners of OVNIS, Allures or Garcias would not be interested into any rally even if they had it for free, and absolutely not, paying for it. I guess they think those things are for pussies.

Go to their sites and you will see plenty circumnavigating, on the Arctic, on the Antarctic, everywhere:

http://www.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&u=http://www.ovniclub.com/blogs/
Voyageurs - Forum nautique OVNI-Club

And this are only the ones that post their experiences. If you go to the Garcia site you will find news of boats all over the world:

"Vagalam" a Passoa 50 sailing in the Antartic, the blog. | Grand Large Café

"ILO", the show must go on, new videos on You Tube, wonderful | Grand Large Café

"Ilo" round the world in search of adventure | Grand Large Café

http://www.grandlargecafe.com/2010/05/acquadoria-retour-a-la-nature/?lang=en

I believe that there are a lot of guys that are there sailing on those boats and don't have time or will to post on internet. These guys don't stay much time on internet

Regards

Paulo


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Which blue water boat do I see most often........mine!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

PCP said:


> Funny, on that lists you don't find a single Garcia, a Allures or an OVNI but you find mostly big boats (over 44), lots of Jeanneaus DS, some Amel and even a Bavaria 36
> 
> Of course, I am sure that the OVNI is now the most popular French voyager boat and we cannot find a single one there, not any Garcia or Allures but mostly boats with a much superior level of interior luxury.
> 
> ...


I'd reckon you are right on the money Paulo. Different people have different priorities.

No way am I putting myself into the experienced cruiser category but for mine the idea of the rally thing is absolute anathema. Far too much socialising for this anti social grumpy old man to cope with. I can understand hooking up with another boat or two (max) if you all wished to visit a specific locale but I shudder at the thought of tromping around the planet accompanied by alll those other people and their baggage.

Then again they probably wouldn't like me either. 

I'm not saying flying solo is better than a group grope just which alternative I'd prefer. (hmm .. did I just call myself a wanker ? )

One thing of interest is that looking at Ilenart's lists (g'day btw, you too Simon), I notice that in the later list the overall size just seems to keep getting bigger. The previous owners of our girl (who went from 42' up to 46') did say that amongst the boats they ran into while cruising Oceania they were on the small(er) side. I realise that with improvements in equipment making short handed sailing easier that there are obvious reasons for this but I'd still not be all that happy handling a plus 50'er with just the two of us.

I'd like to find their blog again but I remember reading a blog of the crew of a Sundeer 60 that circumnavigated and must admit they seemed to cope while of course SailNet member 'Sequitur' is happily sailing a 50' Hunter with just two on board so obviously some people have the ability to handle the big stuff.


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