# Why paint instead of gelcoat?



## aaronwindward

The common advice seems to be that when it comes time to redo original topside gelcoat, it should be sanded and painted. But what I don't understand about this is that even the best two-part polyurethanes last for less than ten years. (I think Don Casey says 5-7 years.) For the massive pain and expense of painting the topsides, and the additional maintenance complications it will cause, only lasting ten years seems like a really crappy deal!

On the other hand, gelcoat seems to last so long that I don't really see anyone measuring its lifetime in years. You see boats from early seventies with original gelcoat that's been well-maintained that could pass for new.

So why isn't redoing gelcoat with gelcoat a thing? Why are people so willing to tear off and rebed all of their deck hardware for something that they'll just have to redo as soon as half a decade later?


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## Minnewaska

I've seen scratched or damage paint that was repaired. Hard to do with gelcoat.


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## bandaidmd

to get a decent gelcoat job it is very labor intensive. 
spray ,sand, buff. or
roll it on ,sand,sand,sand,sand and sand some more than buff

paint; roll it on and go have fun

(prepwork is the same so i didn't include that)


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## PorFin

If you think the amount of work required to get a quality paint finish is massive, you don't want to know how much work a complete gelcoat recoating job would be.

When gel is sprayed into a mold as the first layer of the lay-up, the exterior surface is pretty close to being ready to polish. Unfortunately, that's a one-time deal. Any additional gel that's applied after production will need to be applied (spray preferred) then wet sanded and finally compounded and polished. Add in the time required to remove and/or mask hardware and deck fittings, fix minor nicks and gouges, prep sand, etc, etc, and you're talking about a major job as well. 

Paint is a lot more forgiving than gelcoat, and if properly applied will dry to a shine (i.e., you've crossed the finish line.)

With gelcoat, once you've applied the gel you've still got the second half -- or maybe even 2/3 -- of the race to run...


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## sea_hunter

All good answers, more important polyester based gelcoats are not that waterproof and must be painted when underwater. Painting adds an easily repaired and most important water protection to structural fiberglass. Epoxy gelcoats are waterproof, but are more difficult to cosmetically repair.


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## utchuckd

Isn't the OP's point if re-doing with gelcoat will last the rest of your life, why isn't it worth the extra labor one time to do that, instead of repainting every so many years? More labor once then you're done vs. less labor more times. Does re-applied gelcoat last as long as original gelcoat?


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## Jetexas

utchuckd said:


> Isn't the OP's point if re-doing with gelcoat will last the rest of your life, why isn't it worth the extra labor one time to do that, instead of repainting every so many years? More labor once then you're done vs. less labor more times. Does re-applied gelcoat last as long as original gelcoat?


If I was going to keep the boat for the rest of my life, yes, I might go the gel coat route. But who isn't looking at trading up every few years? Is the added investment in cost and labor going to pay off?


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## PorFin

utchuckd said:


> Isn't the OP's point if re-doing with gelcoat will last the rest of your life, why isn't it worth the extra labor one time to do that, instead of repainting every so many years? More labor once then you're done vs. less labor more times. Does re-applied gelcoat last as long as original gelcoat?


But gelcoat needs maintenance as well -- take a gander at MaineSail's thread on rejuvenating a faded/chalky gelcoat finish. Gelcoat will oxidize, fade, and degrade just as paint will.


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## bljones

utchuckd said:


> Isn't the OP's point if re-doing with gelcoat will last the rest of your life, why isn't it worth the extra labor one time to do that, instead of repainting every so many years? More labor once then you're done vs. less labor more times. Does re-applied gelcoat last as long as original gelcoat?


Because it doesn't last the rest of your life. That's the point.
Think about it. If gelcoat was THAT durable...why is he looking at doing it again? It's tough, but it ain't lifetime tough... and it is tough to apply to large surfaces well. small repairs, cat hulls, no problem. a 25-40' boat with 3-5' of freeboard? Good luck making it look good.
After spending four days in 2009 filling cracks, sanding, and polishing the neglected hull of our 40 year old boat, it was obvious that the robin's egg blue surface was not coming back...at least not with any sort of finish durability. It was also obvious that I was not going to get a decent colour match between the new glecoat i applied and the original hull. Now the docking scuffs that were barely noticeable before were REALLY noticeable.
I spent 10 days in 2010 prepping and painting the deck, cockpit and topsides. 
First season, no maintenance beside touch-ups.
Second season, no maintenance beside touch-ups.
Third season, no maintenance beside touch-ups.


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## sailingfool

utchuckd said:


> ... Does re-applied gelcoat last as long as original gelcoat?


you may as well be discussing shipping your boat to the moon...I haven't heard of a boat being gelcoated in 20-30 years, I would question if you could find a vendor with the facilities, or interest, if you did the costs would kill the idea.
Start with the fact that to re-gelcoat a surface, your first must remove all the existing gelcoat, as thick gelcoat leads to spiderwebbing. Right there makes the cost of fairing and priming the same surface for paint look cheap.


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## tommays

I sail on a boat with over 20 year OLD white Awlgrip









At some point there is only one realistic path 









I can always tell who has never spent a month wetsanding a masive area


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## WDS123

process:

1) fill in cracks, nick, etc with putty or epoxy 
2) remove deck hardware ('cuz I hope you are rebedding everything anyhow)
3) apply 18 mils gelcoat (oops did I forget to accetone surface ?)
4) cure
5) wetsand by hand with 320
6) wetsand by hand with 600
7) wetsand by hand with 800
8) wetsand by hand with 1000
9) wetsand by hand with 1200
10) opps have some nicks - I forgot to fill
11) mask and regelcoat
12) steps 5-9 in some small areas
13) shine bright light over every milimeter of surface
14) retouch the parts you messed up
15) stepes 5-9 in some more small areas
16) apply compound and buff
17) rebuff


now you have a deck that is ready to rebed hardware....


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## aaronwindward

chrisncate said:


> Haul once a year, paint the hull and decks every two. It's just part of owning a boat.
> 
> Re doing a gel coat job seems like little return for a massive investment.


I guess I'm just built differently. If I had to repaint and rebed all deck hardware every other year, I would surely give up boat ownership-or face losing my job and going broke. It's not that I don't feel satisfaction from successfully performing maintenance on my boat. But every hour I'm performing maintenance on the boat, I'm burning my evening, weekend, or vacation, and not actually getting in any sailing.

My gelcoat has lasted 40 years; if a renewal lasted just as long, it may exceed the life of the boat, and my life expectancy, for that matter.

Having seen some video of people applying gelcoat over large areas, it doesn't really seem like it's really that crazy of a task, particularly when you compare it to something like repairing boat pox.


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## bljones

Hey, it's your boat, your life, your time and your money. The responses you got were virtually unanimous, and if you still think it's a good idea, you can't say we didn't warn you.


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## smackdaddy

Aaron - I'm about to try it on my beach cat hulls. I'll let you know how much of a hassle it is in my Rehab thread. But keep in mind, I'm not going for the perfect finish - so sand it with a grain of salt (oooh that was good).


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## jrd22

When we re-fit Laurie Anne we had parts of the topsides re-gelcoated where the teak decks were removed and we had to match the existing gelcoat. Our fiberglass guy also re-did sections of the house sides where it was scratched or damaged. Looks great, you can't tell it ever had teak decks. We also had all the gelcoat redone on the house sides on our crab boat by the same guy, looks new and should last forever. He does this routinely for commercial fishing boats, paint doesn't tend to last long on them. It is time consuming, but the cost was less than half again what paint would have been and gelcoat is easily (by a competent glass guy) repaired. He sprayed it on, wet sanded, buffed and polished it. For long term, or hard use, it makes a lot of sense.


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## SloopJonB

A couple of years ago I watched two boats being done in my boatyard. One was being *completely* re-gelcoated and the others hull was being done with 2 part poly.

The work seemed to be about the same overall. IMO the gelcoated boat came out better looking. It had a beautiful, slightly pearlescent sheen, not an ultra high gloss mirror finish. The two part paint job was prepped by three guys on a longboard for DAYS. it came out looking like a show car - you could literally shave in your reflection but when it hit the water it looked wavy, as if it had been badly faired. That was caused by all the perfect reflections of the ripples in the water - it was TOO perfect for the environment it lived in.

I've been told by pro refinishers that there are gelcoats available now that don't require the massive finish work of days of old - they don't orange peel like the old gels. The first one who told me this did some spray touchup on my hull and it was easy to sand & buff - less work by far than the absolute perfection of pre-paint prep the 2-parts require.

Finally, I think the post by WDS123 goes way over the top - few cars other than show cars ever go past 600 wet before the buffer. His process might be required when prepping a plug for production moulds but certainly not for refinishing a hull. I went to 600 wet, then coarse, then fine polishing compounds, then wax and I could read the names of surrounding boats in the reflections on my 40 year old, badly neglected gelcoat.

Remember - a boat should look good from 10 feet, not one foot - a one footer has to live in a shed and takes all your time to keep it that way.


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## tommays

The big question at hand in my mind is that this place is to a large extent DIY focused and IMHP the Roll & Tip two part fits that the best ?










As i build my own bicycles I am fairly skilled spray painter as in they look good enough at 1" that people pay money

BUT there is absolutely positively NO way that skill scales UP to the quantity and toxicity of spraying the quantity of material needed on a even a 29' boat in the very SHORT time frame it needs to be done in .

The 545 primer which while not nice stuff is the only material easy to spray in large amounts i have seen

As far as life Seafevers Awlgrip is going on its second year and shows ZERO loss of gloss


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## hellosailor

Conventional "gelcoat" material only sets up and cures in the absence of air. Making it great to apply inside a female mold before frp is laid over it, but impossible to spray like paint, since you'd have to cover it to cure it. There are supposed to be new "gelcoat" materials that will cure in air but at that point maybe price is a problem?


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## chrisncate

aaronwindward said:


> I guess I'm just built differently. If I had to repaint and rebed all deck hardware every other year, I would surely give up boat ownership-or face losing my job and going broke. It's not that I don't feel satisfaction from successfully performing maintenance on my boat. But every hour I'm performing maintenance on the boat, I'm burning my evening, weekend, or vacation, and not actually getting in any sailing.
> 
> My gelcoat has lasted 40 years; if a renewal lasted just as long, it may exceed the life of the boat, and my life expectancy, for that matter.
> 
> Having seen some video of people applying gelcoat over large areas, it doesn't really seem like it's really that crazy of a task, particularly when you compare it to something like repairing boat pox.


Nothing wrong with that at all!

Hey, I can paint and do boat work like it's nothing, but I am terrible at actually cruising anywhere (won't, don't). Know thyself I believe the saying goes... 

Best of luck however you go!


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## SloopJonB

hellosailor said:


> Conventional "gelcoat" material only sets up and cures in the absence of air. Making it great to apply inside a female mold before frp is laid over it, but impossible to spray like paint, since you'd have to cover it to cure it. There are supposed to be new "gelcoat" materials that will cure in air but at that point maybe price is a problem?


The gelcoat I referred to is not air inhibited and it didn't cost any more than regular gelcoat. It is handled and sprayed just like usual - thinned with acetone etc. You can even use those disposable Preval sprayers for touch up purposes.

I think the problem with it is what has been said in this thread - most people think it's only good when sprayed into a mould before laminating, otherwise it's too much work.

2 part polys have attained the image of being the only way to go and it has become conventional wisdom as a result.

That isn't true.


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## sea_hunter

SloopJonB:902475 said:


> hellosailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Conventional "gelcoat" material only sets up and cures in the absence of air. Making it great to apply inside a female mold before frp is laid over it, but impossible to spray like paint, since you'd have to cover it to cure it. There are supposed to be new "gelcoat" materials that will cure in air but at that point maybe price is a problem?
> 
> 
> 
> The gelcoat I referred to is not air inhibited and it didn't cost any more than regular gelcoat. It is handled and sprayed just like usual - thinned with acetone etc. You can even use those disposable Preval sprayers for touch up purposes.
> 
> I think the problem with it is what has been said in this thread - most people think it's only good when sprayed into a mould before laminating, otherwise it's too much work.
> 
> 2 part polys have attained the image of being the only way to go and it has become conventional wisdom as a result.
> 
> That isn't true.
Click to expand...

All resins polyester or epoxy, including gelcoat will harden in the absence of air or in the presence of air as they are not thinner based coatings, they are an anaerobic chemical reaction that will harden either way.


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## PorFin

Seems to be a little confusion here about resins (which includes gelcoat).

Most gelcoat you see on the shelves of your local marine store include wax, which will rise to the surface after application to create an air barrier that will allow the resin to properly cure. You can get -- and I prefer to use -- gelcoat without wax; the surface of this will not fully cure and makes a chemical bond with the next layer of gelcoat possible. You can then air seal your final coat of gel with PVA or with a film (acetate works well for relatively flat repairs.

Likewise, polyester resins come in two flavors: standard resin (some call it "boatyard resin") which will fully cure; and laminating resin, that even after curing has a "non-cured" surface that will allow a chemical bond with successive applications of resin and eliminates the need to sand/prep between layers.


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## RichH

The problem with "PAINT', any paint, is that it cannot be immersed for long periods - or it will lift and lose adhesion. For instance, if you are heeled over for a few days and you hull is immersed due to the constant heel, there is a quite good chance that you will 'lose some paint'. Ditto, if you shrink wrap a hull and dont provide proper ventilation or (horrors) have the shrink wrap come in contact with the paint, expect to see lifting and loss of adhesion.
If you carefully look at 'any' paint tech manual, clearly written will be long term immersion or contact with water will result in loss of paint adhesion, etc. etc. etc. 

Spraying gelcoat including the final buff-out is easy, once the somewhat steep learning curve is accomplished. Gelcoat can withstand long immersion in water, much longer than 'paint', any paint. Once you paint a hull, you will be constantly painting the hull, especially that part of the hull that 'dips' constantly into the water, or as stated if very long term heeled. 

Gelcoat will last 20-25 years if 'maintained', can be 'restored' several times before needing either painting or resprayed with more gelcoat. Paint, especially boat paint, is prone to 'lifting' if in constant or long term contact with WATER (read the boat paint tech manuals !!!!); and you WILL be repainting every 5-10 years thereafter.

I spray both 'paint' (Awlgrip and the Interlux "mega-boat" finishes and "Perfection" etc.) and gel on my boats. No question, I prefer re-spraying gelcoat over 'paint', 'any' paint. Once I learned to spray gel, learned that computers do the best color matching (even white hulls), ... never will 'paint' a boat again - too vulnerable to scratches, to adhesion loss, to waterline 'pimples', etc. etc. etc.

Once you paint a boat, you will be continually and regularly be painting the boat. Gelcoat, or spraying gelcoat, is much much easier and is much much longer lasting.


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## bljones

SloopJonB said:


> The gelcoat I referred to is not air inhibited and it didn't cost any more than regular gelcoat. It is handled and sprayed just like usual - thinned with acetone etc. You can even use those disposable Preval sprayers for touch up purposes.
> 
> I think the problem with it is what has been said in this thread - most people think it's only good when sprayed into a mould before laminating, otherwise it's too much work.
> 
> 2 part polys have attained the image of being the only way to go and it has become conventional wisdom as a result.
> 
> That isn't true.


What IS true is that it is damn tough for an amateur to get decent results spraying a large surface with gelcoat, there is no way to get acceptable results with rolling/tipping gelcoat without doing a ton of sanding, and many yards will not let you spray gelcoat on site.


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## tommays

If you read the building a DART thread over at SA which is a great READ on the labor of building a boat

Thye have to be careful spraying gel in the controled enviro of there shop to NOT have it kick in the gun and it seems there really good at it


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## RichH

Some day you will probably sell your boat.

Considerations:
If today you were buying a boat and had the choice between a 'painted' hull and well sprayed out re-gelcoated hull; and, all other aspects of the two boats were dead on equal .... which would be your choice to buy? 

Once you 'paint' a boat, youre eventually going to be 'repainting' that hull for the rest of the days that you own that boat. 

Gelcoat 'kicking' in a spray gun ... not a probem. Get a Gel gun with a DISPOSABLE pot. If the gel 'kicks' in the gun, throw the paint pot away and install a new POT.


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## bljones

RichH said:


> Some day you will probably sell your boat.
> 
> Considerations:
> If today you were buying a boat and had the choice between a 'painted' hull and well sprayed out re-gelcoated hull; and, all other aspects of the two boats were dead on equal .... which would be your choice to buy?


Which is the average amateur DIyer more likely to produce, an acceptable roll and tipped paint finish, or a "well-sprayed out re-gelcoated hull"?

Draw a Venn diagram, with one circle being "How many yards are comfortable with amateurs spraying gelcoat on site," a second "How many amateurs have to tools to do the job? " and the third circle "How many amateur DIYers have the ability to do the job well?"

I hypothesize that you will not get the circles to intersect. 
Just for giggles, here's a fourth circle- "How many boat owners would be pleased about an amateur spraying gelcoat beside their boat?"

THAT is why paint is popular among the great unwashed.


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## smackdaddy

bljones said:


> Which is the average amateur DIyer more likely to produce, an acceptable roll and tipped paint finish, or a "well-sprayed out re-gelcoated hull"?
> 
> Draw a Venn diagram, with one circle being "How many yards are comfortable with amateurs spraying gelcoat on site," a second "How many amateurs have to tools to do the job? " and the third circle "How many amateur DIYers have the ability to do the job well?"
> 
> I hypothesize that you will not get the circles to intersect.
> Just for giggles, here's a fourth circle- "How many boat owners would be pleased about an amateur spraying gelcoat beside their boat?"
> 
> THAT is why paint is popular among the great unwashed.


None of that matters to Rich's question. If I had the choice when comparing side-by-side and they looked comparable...gelcoat. No doubt.


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## bljones

Sure it does, Smack, especially in the context of this thread.


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## davidpm

To add more confusion the the mix I have been told that some new boat manufactures (power) all-grip their boats from the factory over the gel coat finish.
The reason is that the all-grip has a deeper brighter shine that certain buyers prefer.


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## SloopJonB

davidpm said:


> To add more confusion the the mix I have been told that some new boat manufactures (power) all-grip their boats from the factory over the gel coat finish.
> The reason is that the all-grip has a deeper brighter shine that certain buyers prefer.


As I noted earlier, there's no question the 2-parts have more gloss - you can get a true mirror finish on a properly prepared surface. When in the water though, it doesn't look as good because of all the reflections - gel coat with a good shine looks better.


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## Minnewaska

For those of you that are in favor of gel coat over paint, do you feel the same for darker colors? 

Let's face it, everyone scratches their boat. Some keep them insignificant enough, they aren't noticeable from 10 feet away. Others are less fortunate. I had a neighbor with a dark blue gelcoat hull that must have gotten into a dock or some nasty rubbing on a mooring or something bad to the front of her hull. It was a 4 x 4 foot set of serious scratches. It seemed like there was virtually nothing they could do to help. Paint, particularly acrylic, can be repaired. Even the new Alexseal LP paint, claims it can be repaired.


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## SloopJonB

Minnewaska said:


> For those of you that are in favor of gel coat over paint, do you feel the same for darker colors?
> 
> Let's face it, everyone scratches their boat. Some keep them insignificant enough, they aren't noticeable from 10 feet away. Others are less fortunate. I had a neighbor with a dark blue gelcoat hull that must have gotten into a dock or some nasty rubbing on a mooring or something bad to the front of her hull. It was a 4 x 4 foot set of serious scratches. It seemed like there was virtually nothing they could do to help. Paint, particularly acrylic, can be repaired. Even the new Alexseal LP paint, claims it can be repaired.


Gelcoat is easy to touch up, that's one of it's best features. My boat had a gouge 3/16" wide, 12 feet long down to the matt - like it had slid along a nail hanging out of a piling. I filled and prepped it and had a guy spray gel over it, then I rubbed it out - it was nearly invisible and this on 40 year old gelcoat.


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## Minnewaska

SloopJonB said:


> Gelcoat is easy to touch up, that's one of it's best features. My boat had a gouge 3/16" wide, 12 feet long down to the matt - like it had slid along a nail hanging out of a piling. I filled and prepped it and had a guy spray gel over it, then I rubbed it out - it was nearly invisible and this on 40 year old gelcoat.


Was this a dark color?


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## smackdaddy

bljones said:


> Sure it does, Smack, especially in the context of this thread.


Well, I guess the way I see it, there are a couple of pretty knowledgeable guys in this thread talking about how gelcoat is superior to paint. And how it's really not that hard to work with. And this seems to be based on their actual experience.

Then there are you and others who insist it's impossible to for a DIYer to get good results with it. And I'm not clear which of this crowd has actually sprayed gelcoat like the former to know that. Though I don't discount what you're saying, I don't just buy it outright either.

So, I guess as someone interested in the issue (and about to try basic gelcoating), I like the advice of the guys in the first group because I like the idea of not having to do the work again for many, many years.

We'll see how it comes out.

(PS - the issue of whether boat yards will allow spraying of gelcoat is another matter I suppose. But, again, even within the context of this thread, I think Rich's comparison is an easy one.)


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## SloopJonB

Minnewaska said:


> Was this a dark color?


Nope - 40 year old, thoroughly oxidized off-white. Why would dark colours be any different? Colour matching is colour matching.


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## RichH

SloopJonB said:


> As I noted earlier, there's no question the 2-parts have more gloss - you can get a true mirror finish on a properly prepared surface. When in the water though, it doesn't look as good because of all the reflections - gel coat with a good shine looks better.


Duratec Clear High Gloss additive and similar gloss gelcoat additives can produce a gelcoat surface with equal gloss to even the 2 Part urethane-acrylic finishes ... and its just as 'repairable' as the copolymer 2-parts. Some would add that the high gloss additives are 'glossier'.


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## BluemanSailor

RichH said:


> Duratec Clear High Gloss additive and similar gloss gelcoat additives can produce a gelcoat surface with equal gloss to even the 2 Part urethane-acrylic finishes ... and its just as 'repairable' as the copolymer 2-parts. Some would add that the high gloss additives are 'glossier'.


I just ordered some of this Duratec additive after reading about it and studying the online comments for the past month. Have decided to re-gel coat part of my deck: the areas around the none skid, cabin sides, cockpit and my high bulwarks.

Brought a gallon of colored gelcoat from Fibre Glast - they have over 900 custom colors and what is great is that you can rent a chip booklet for $5.00 for the month, I think I found an exact match to my boats color. Hoping that I get my Duratec and thinner soon and will do some test spraying hopefully this weekend or next. I've never re-gel coated but have used Awlgrip and done a reasonable amount of fiberglass construction and repair. I'll post photos as soon as I've sprayed some samples. Also I'm only going to use those Preval sprayers as I'm only spraying a small area at a time. Wish me luck.


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## RichH

BluemanSailor said:


> I just ordered some of this Duratec additive after reading about it and studying the online comments for the past month. Have decided to re-gel coat part of my deck: the areas around the none skid, cabin sides, cockpit and my high bulwarks.
> 
> Brought a gallon of colored gelcoat from Fibre Glast - they have over 900 custom colors and what is great is that you can rent a chip booklet for $5.00 for the month, I think I found an exact match to my boats color. Hoping that I get my Duratec and thinner soon and will do some test spraying hopefully this weekend or next. I've never re-gel coated but have used Awlgrip and done a reasonable amount of fiberglass construction and repair. I'll post photos as soon as I've sprayed some samples. Also I'm only going to use those Preval sprayers as I'm only spraying a small area at a time. Wish me luck.


Here's a hint to do a better job with the PreVal sprayers: 
1. Go to a paint store and get a supply of small conical 'paint strainers' - finest 'mesh' size you can obtain.
2. Mix and thin the Gel to the consistency you desire .... dont add the catalyst, yet. 
3. Filter the uncatalyzed gel through the paint strainer
4. REMOVE the teeny stainer on the PreVal suction tube .... throw it away. Its too small and easily clogs. 
5. Add catalyst to the filtered gel, etc. etc. and spray.

The result will be 'better' and heavier spray (no restriction due to the teeny Preval 'strainer'), and the Preval 'strainer' wont clog up during the operation. etc. ... although sometimes when the gel 'begins' to kick it will clog the spray orfice.

Other 
You will be flat sanding and polishing/buffing later on .... To affect the best accelerated surface cure, spay on some 'parting fluid' or PolyVinyl Alcohol (PVA) over top of any spraying you do - its easily sprayed with a PreVal and is water soluble to remove it after the 'cure'/kick.

Good Luck.

;-)


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## BluemanSailor

RichH said:


> Here's a hint to do a better job with the PreVal sprayers:
> 1. Go to a paint store and get a supply of small conical 'paint strainers' - finest 'mesh' size you can obtain.
> 2. Mix and thin the Gel to the consistency you desire .... dont add the catalyst, yet.
> 3. Filter the uncatalyzed gel through the paint strainer
> 4. REMOVE the teeny stainer on the PreVal suction tube .... throw it away. Its too small and easily clogs.
> 5. Add catalyst to the filtered gel, etc. etc. and spray.
> 
> The result will be 'better' and heavier spray (no restriction due to the teeny Preval 'strainer'), and the Preval 'strainer' wont clog up during the operation. etc. ... although sometimes when the gel 'begins' to kick it will clog the spray orfice.
> 
> Good Luck.
> 
> ;-)


thanks for the tips!


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## Minnewaska

SloopJonB said:


> Nope - 40 year old, thoroughly oxidized off-white. Why would dark colours be any different? Colour matching is colour matching.


I don't think you can color match oxidized dark blue gelcoat, expecially when it gets old and milky. White seems like it just takes on a different version of white.


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## SloopJonB

Minnewaska said:


> I don't think you can color match oxidized dark blue gelcoat, expecially when it gets old and milky. White seems like it just takes on a different version of white.


Colour sanding - wet 600 grit then compounding with a buffer should bring back the dark blue - it worked on my 40 year old, dark blue boot top.

If colour sanding and polishing won't bring it back to at least acceptable condition, it's time to recoat, not touch up. If it's that bad, why would you want to bother with touching up scratches? Conversely, why would you care if they didn't match?


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## Minnewaska

Sloop. I will take your word for it that it can be done. However, I often see it isn't done. I don't think oxidized gelcoat looks so bad that one wouldn't care about a serious scratch. Just think it's hard to match in and you're saying you can bring it back with wet sanding and compound before recoating. I would have thought I would see more rejuvenating going on, scratch or not, but again, I will take your word on it.


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## SloopJonB

Minnewaska said:


> I would have thought I would see more rejuvenating going on, scratch or not, but again, I will take your word on it.


Did I mention that it took me a month to do the hull of my 43'?


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## PorFin

RichH said:


> ... 5. Add catalyst to the filtered gel, etc. etc. and spray.


And remember that when you do your calculations on how much catalyst to add, you need to base them on the volume of the thinned gel and not the original amount taken out of the can.

Don't ask me how I know this...


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## CapnBilll

Wow, a lot of opinons on both sides, no question a new layer of gelcoat will be better, but I used to work for a plastics, shop, I have gallons of resin in my garage that I regularly fabricate fiberglass objects with, as well as boat repairs....

a few weeks ago I decided to refinish my boat.

I gel coated the gouges, sanded flat, then painted the hull with a marine enamel, I did the same to the deck mixed with some nonskid. It only took a weekend, and it came out great.


----------



## casey1999

Ok I am totally confused about paint vs gel coat.

Years ago I re-built an old neglected 13 foot boston whaler. I wanted to re gel coat but everyone I spoke with said forget it, it is not done, just paint. That's what I did.

I never see boat yards advertise to re gel coat. They all advertise two part paint. So are there boat yards that would re gel coat? If cost is an issue, what % increase in cost would there be to gel coat instead of paint?
Regards


----------



## SloopJonB

casey1999 said:


> Ok I am totally confused about paint vs gel coat.
> 
> Years ago I re-built an old neglected 13 foot boston whaler. I wanted to re gel coat but everyone I spoke with said forget it, it is not done, just paint. That's what I did.
> 
> I never see boat yards advertise to re gel coat. They all advertise two part paint. So are there boat yards that would re gel coat? If cost is an issue, what % increase in cost would there be to gel coat instead of paint?
> Regards


Years ago it wasn't done because the resins of the time orange peeled badly when used outside of a mould. It took a very large amount of sanding and polishing to get a nice surface. New resins are available that don't do it.

I had some extensive touching up done on my hull to cover repaired scrapes, thin spots etc. Probably more than 5% of the hull needed spraying and it cost me $100 which included the gel and the colour matching.

Most of the cost of recoating a hull is the prep work which anybody is capable of doing - it just takes time and brute labour. Getting someone in to just spray the coating is usually only a few $hundred.

If you haven't ever sanded anything like a boat or a car, it would be advisable to do some reading on proper technique and materials beforehand. If you prep it properly it will come out better than new in almost all cases.


----------



## sea_hunter

I agree, educate yourself. Frankly if the hull is in bad shape, get it beaded by a pro. Once you've got it prepped, and most of the loose gelcoat removed, barrier coat the hull; it saves soooooo much future work. Ours is on it's 10th year since coating and bottom painting is one of the easiest jobs with a slight sanding then 3 coats of bottom paint every 2 year's. The best, not a blister to be seen.


----------



## j34035

BluemanSailor said:


> I just ordered some of this Duratec additive after reading about it and studying the online comments for the past month. Have decided to re-gel coat part of my deck: the areas around the none skid, cabin sides, cockpit and my high bulwarks.
> 
> Brought a gallon of colored gelcoat from Fibre Glast - they have over 900 custom colors and what is great is that you can rent a chip booklet for $5.00 for the month, I think I found an exact match to my boats color. Hoping that I get my Duratec and thinner soon and will do some test spraying hopefully this weekend or next. I've never re-gel coated but have used Awlgrip and done a reasonable amount of fiberglass construction and repair. I'll post photos as soon as I've sprayed some samples. Also I'm only going to use those Preval sprayers as I'm only spraying a small area at a time. Wish me luck.


I just shot my first gel coat with the duratec additive last weekend. I have never had success shooting gelcoat, but this turned out great! I recoated a sea hood for my J/22 and the finish with no extra work was very glossy, and it cured with no extra additive. Next project is to spray the keel now that the fairing is complete. I will post on the results; will probably shoot it this weekend. BTW, good luck!
DD


----------



## j34035

Also, check out Schroth Fiberglass in Austin, Texas. They shoot boats in gelcoat and seem to do ok with it. I have seen one that came out of their shop, and it looks better than the new boats do, so there are shops that can and do shoot gelcoat.
DD


----------



## smackdaddy

j34035 said:


> I just shot my first gel coat with the duratec additive last weekend. I have never had success shooting gelcoat, but this turned out great! I recoated a sea hood for my J/22 and the finish with no extra work was very glossy, and it cured with no extra additive. Next project is to spray the keel now that the fairing is complete. I will post on the results; will probably shoot it this weekend. BTW, good luck!
> DD


Woah, woah....bl says that's not possible! You've obviously wantonly ignored the sage advice in this thread at your own peril. Surely something's going to go horribly wrong. The front's going to fall off.

Heh-heh. Nice work j.


----------



## SloopJonB

j34035 said:


> I just shot my first gel coat with the duratec additive last weekend. I have never had success shooting gelcoat, but this turned out great! I recoated a sea hood for my J/22 and the finish with no extra work was very glossy, and it cured with no extra additive. Next project is to spray the keel now that the fairing is complete. I will post on the results; will probably shoot it this weekend. BTW, good luck! DD


PICS please!


----------



## hellosailor

Found Valspar's booklet on gelcoat online and after reading it the bottom line seems to be "Boys and grils, don't try this yourselves at home!"

Not that you can't, but that gelcoat "should" be mixed and sprayed in small quantities because it will kick off and set in 10-16 minutes, so that's all the time you have unless you've got special continuous mix/spray equipment. 

And that it "must" always be sanded, unlike paint, which can add a lot of labor.

Add in a narrower working temperature range and more precise dosing of additives and thinners, and Valspar seems to be quietly saying "great product, steep learning curve, not for the casual user unless you want to just do one small project".

A transom, maybe. The side of a hull? That's probably going to mean buying the continuous sprayers, and a lot of sanding, and I can see why shops wouldn't want to take it to that level of cost and skill.


----------



## bljones

smackdaddy said:


> Woah, woah....bl says that's not possible! You've obviously wantonly ignored the sage advice in this thread at your own peril. Surely something's going to go horribly wrong. The front's going to fall off.
> 
> Heh-heh. Nice work j.


Smacky, I never said it wasn't possible. at all. ever- in fact, I urge you to go back and re-read exactly what i wrote- take your time, ask for help with the big words.

I'll help and recap it for you
Is an amateur LIKELY to get great results the first time? No, but it's not impossible. You actually contribute something useful from time to time and a stopped watch is right twice a day, so nothing is impossible.
In fact, re-read the post you are quoting- this isn't this poster's first try at the gelcoat rodeo, and he hadn't been successful before. He is also doing a smallish part, in a controlled environment, not a whole boat in a yard. Big difference, not that you would know, since you've never refinished a boat. But ignorance has never prevented you from denigrating those with the experience you lack.

Since credibility is apparently at issue, here's my gelcoat CV- I've sprayed gelcoat, splashed molds, built boats, built dunebuggies and buggy bodies (still have a couple of hood molds in my shed) so I've got the BTDT creds.
You, on the other hand, are THINKING about doing it. To a small catamaran. When your kids finish sanding it. In your backyard.

So, if you screw up, big deal.

If you screw up on a 300 sq ft deck, or 800 sq ft of topside, you're really screwing up.

I encourage folks to try new skills and learn new things. If the OP really wants to gelcoat, then start with a spray hood or a hatch locker. Don't start with spraying or rolling the topsides.

But go on with your bad self and insult those who are offering real world experience.

Oh wait, that's right, you were just insulting me... not the others who offer the same advice, you know, like that professional boatbuilding Schock guy.

I encourage folks to try new skills and learn new things. If the OP really wants to gelcoat, then start with a spray hood or a hatch locker. Don't start with spraying or rolling the topsides.


----------



## BluemanSailor

j34035 said:


> I just shot my first gel coat with the duratec additive last weekend. I have never had success shooting gelcoat, but this turned out great! I recoated a sea hood for my J/22 and the finish with no extra work was very glossy, and it cured with no extra additive. Next project is to spray the keel now that the fairing is complete. I will post on the results; will probably shoot it this weekend. BTW, good luck!
> DD


GREAT glad to hear that Duratec does work as they say. Photos yes please. What did you spray with..and did you have to thin it after adding the Duratec?


----------



## tommays

j34035 said:


> Also, check out Schroth Fiberglass in Austin, Texas. They shoot boats in gelcoat and seem to do ok with it. I have seen one that came out of their shop, and it looks better than the new boats do, so there are shops that can and do shoot gelcoat.
> DD


He has been at it for decades so i am not sure that helps a DIY with no gelcoat skills


----------



## j34035

SloopJonB said:


> PICS please!


I will post pics if I am successful with the keel, and a report if I am not. Promise!
DD


----------



## j34035

BluemanSailor said:


> GREAT glad to hear that Duratec does work as they say. Photos yes please. What did you spray with..and did you have to thin it after adding the Duratec?


The duratec is a reactive thinner according to their information. It mixes 1:1 with gelcoat, then with 2% mekp. If you still need to thin, use styrene thinner, not acetone. I shot it with a cheap HVLP gun with a 2.0 tip, then cleaned the whole gun with acetone as soon as I was through shooting. Use new gelcoat from a volume supplier. My personal experience is old gelcoat does not shoot as well as fresh material; it gets lumps in it and causes a rough finish. Check with US Composites for material. I have had good luck with them so far.

I agree with BL that you should start with something small to build skill, an entire boat is a lot to chew off at one bite. I did the transom on my J/34c 3 times before it was acceptable, and that is about 10% of the total topsides. I would have hated to have done the entire boat 3 times before it was good.

Tom, my comment about Schroth was not to say anyone can shoot gel because they can't, but that there are shops that lean toward gel instead of paint, and yes, they have spent decades developing that skill. My work quality is nowhere near what I saw on the J/22 I was referring to that came out of their shop.

I have been rebuilding boats(my own) for 20+ years but gel on an entire boat is something I would have to think about for a long time before I jumped in and started (though a white gelcoat topsides on my blue j/37 sure would be pretty).
DD


----------



## smackdaddy

bljones said:


> But go on with your bad self and insult those who are offering real world experience.
> 
> Oh wait, that's right, you were just insulting me... not the others who offer the same advice, you know, like that professional boatbuilding Schock guy.


Boy you sure do get huffy easily, dude.

I didn't insult anybody - anywhere. I just acknowledged that there are two viewpoints in this thread regarding the difficulty vs. benefits of gelcoat (i.e. - no unanimous opinion). And both of these viewpoints have some merit - and some real life examples to back them up.

I will say I've noticed that you often seem to think if someone doesn't take your advice they are somehow insulting you. That's not a real healthy view.

Anyway, it's good to see successful gelcoat applications. That's really what I'm interested in. I personally don't mind working more on the front end (even sanding) - if it saves a lot of effort on the back end.


----------



## smackdaddy

j34035 said:


> The duratec is a reactive thinner according to their information. It mixes 1:1 with gelcoat, then with 2% mekp. If you still need to thin, use styrene thinner, not acetone. I shot it with a cheap HVLP gun with a 2.0 tip, then cleaned the whole gun with acetone as soon as I was through shooting. Use new gelcoat from a volume supplier. My personal experience is old gelcoat does not shoot as well as fresh material; it gets lumps in it and causes a rough finish. Check with US Composites for material. I have had good luck with them so far.
> 
> I agree with BL that you should start with something small to build skill, an entire boat is a lot to chew off at one bite. I did the transom on my J/34c 3 times before it was acceptable, and that is about 10% of the total topsides. I would have hated to have done the entire boat 3 times before it was good.
> 
> Tom, my comment about Schroth was not to say anyone can shoot gel because they can't, but that there are shops that lean toward gel instead of paint, and yes, they have spent decades developing that skill. My work quality is nowhere near what I saw on the J/22 I was referring to that came out of their shop.
> 
> I have been rebuilding boats(my own) for 20+ years but gel on an entire boat is something I would have to think about for a long time before I jumped in and started (though a white gelcoat topsides on my blue j/37 sure would be pretty).
> DD


This is a great post, j. I honestly have no illusions that doing a "great" job with paint is likely a lot easier than doing a "great" job with gelcoat. And I suppose the longevity up-side of gelcoat means that if you do a lousy job, you'll just have that lousy job much longer.

But, the idea of doing it once and having it last a decade or more is pretty damn appealing. And if I'm going to learn and practice - that seems like a good route.

I'll post pics of my attempts on the cat. This could be funny.


----------



## bljones

smackdaddy said:


> Boy you sure do get huffy easily, dude.
> 
> I will say I've noticed that you often seem to think if someone doesn't take your advice they are somehow insulting you. That's not a real healthy view.


LOL. Okay smack, if your deliberate misquotes are not insulting- then that simply means you have reading comprehension issues. Is that more accurate? You just keep taking you petty shots, Smack, and I'll just keep on actually doing stuff so that I can then offer advice that you will malign, misrepesent, misquote and mangle.

We can keep this act going for years.


----------



## SloopJonB

smackdaddy said:


> This is a great post, j. I honestly have no illusions that doing a "great" job with paint is likely a lot easier than doing a "great" job with gelcoat. And I suppose the longevity up-side of gelcoat means that if you do a lousy job, you'll just have that lousy job much longer.
> 
> But, the idea of doing it once and having it last a decade or more is pretty damn appealing. And if I'm going to learn and practice - that seems like a good route.
> 
> I'll post pics of my attempts on the cat. This could be funny.


Two points about this - first, I would have a pro shoot the gelcoat. The prep - sanding, filling, sanding, more sanding, masking etc. is where the money goes in a pro refinishing. Getting a pro in to shoot the topcoat likely costs less than getting a gun that can handle the gelcoat and the waste inherent in an amateur attempt - how much does even a partial re-do cost?

Second, one of the nice things about gelcoat is that it is very easy to fine sand & polish out runs, sags, orange peel etc. There's no need to live with a bad job for decades.

A friend of mine gelcoated a glass over ply Thunderbird many years ago. He didn't know beforehand about the problems doing it with the old resins. It took a lot of work to smooth it out but it came out looking like a moulded boat in the end.


----------



## j34035

SloopJonB said:


> Getting a pro in to shoot the topcoat likely costs less than getting a gun that can handle the gelcoat and the waste inherent in an amateur attempt - how much does even a partial re-do cost?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I have wasted 2 guns and a ton of gel coat over the last few years playing with the stuff. If a good gel coat guy is available, you are money ahead, for sure.
> DD


----------



## smackdaddy

SloopJonB said:


> Two points about this - first, I would have a pro shoot the gelcoat. The prep - sanding, filling, sanding, more sanding, masking etc. is where the money goes in a pro refinishing. Getting a pro in to shoot the topcoat likely costs less than getting a gun that can handle the gelcoat and the waste inherent in an amateur attempt - how much does even a partial re-do cost?
> 
> Second, one of the nice things about gelcoat is that it is very easy to fine sand & polish out runs, sags, orange peel etc. There's no need to live with a bad job for decades.
> 
> A friend of mine gelcoated a glass over ply Thunderbird many years ago. He didn't know beforehand about the problems doing it with the old resins. It took a lot of work to smooth it out but it came out looking like a moulded boat in the end.


To be honest, my expectations for quality are probably WAY below what you guys are talking about. But I can't think of better practice than with my yellow beachcat. And I'm going to roll it instead of shoot it BTW.

I really don't want to paint it because of the beating it will take pulling it up onto the beach, loading it on the trailer, etc. Way too much hassle.

I guess the way I see it, I'm already going to be sanding, filling, masking, and sanding some more - so why not give it a go? I think I can get it looking fairly decent. And the gelcoat is WAY cheaper. So not too many downsides I can see right now (though I have read a couple of horror stories).


----------



## bljones

smackdaddy said:


> And the gelcoat is WAY cheaper.


See, this is what i don't get. show me the savings in material cost to prove out your theory.

According to Evercote, you get 50 sq ft. per gallon at 20 mils

http://www.evercoat.com/imgs/pis/GELCOAT.pdf

Whereas you get over 10 times as much coverage with Interlux perfection
Interlux Paint Coverage Chart

So, a cat with 2 16' x 2' x 1' hulls is 192 sq ft of surface to cover. 4 gallons of gelcoat or less than one gallon of paint.


----------



## smackdaddy

One gallon of paint will give me 20 mils coverage that I can re-fill and/or buff-out scratches and oxidation for 2-3 decades? Cool. I'll go with the paint.

I get what you're saying, blojo. I really do. But your paint math is just a bit short-sighted when comparing apples to orange peel. Over the longer term, paint will be more expensive and laborious.

I'm just saying I'm going to try gelcoat - that's all. There are several knowledgeable guys in this thread that think it's pretty good stuff.

We'll see how it turns out.


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## overbored

ther is no way it will take 4 gallons of gel coat to cover a beach cat. I did one several years ago and we did it with one gallon sprayed 
Smackday, let us know how the rolling goes, I have never been able to make it work for me. 
Last thing I gelcoated was the instrument pod that I built for over the hatch cover. sprayed it with a $15 Harbor Freight gun.


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## smackdaddy

overbored said:


> ther is no way it will take 4 gallons of gel coat to cover a beach cat. I did one several years ago and we did it with one gallon sprayed
> Smackday, let us know how the rolling goes, I have never been able to make it work for me.
> Last thing I gelcoated was the instrument pod that I built for over the hatch cover. sprayed it with a $15 Harbor Freight gun.


You got it ob. I may have some questions for you when I get closer.

Nice work on the pod.


----------



## MattSplatt

Chris, you really make that look easy; and Heron looks absolutely beautiful. Well done!

My first boat project (starting in a few weeks) is to build some stitch & glue plywood outriggers for my canoe and to repaint the canoe. I'm going to try this method. Thank you.


----------



## hellosailor

"Err on the side of thinning. I had to completely disregard the ridiculous "don't thin more than 10%" hokum on the can of paint.... I also disregarded the proprietary thinners in favor of regular old mineral spirits (obviously it was fine to do so).. "

Bear in mind there are usually reasons for the instructions. Did you measure the finished thickness of your coating? I would bet that over-thinning results in a thinner coat, and that using unspecific brands of "spirits" (which will be different mixtures with different evaporation rates) also results in varying drying times and varying thicknesses.

All of which may be perfectly acceptable for a one-shot user, but in a production setting, or for a shop trying to use the same products to get uniform results day after day, both could be issues.

"I couldn't even imagine how nice it'd be to paint inside.."
You mean, with temperature and humidity controlled, too? (VBG)


----------



## Flybyknight

What's wrong with a fine paint refinish?
I keep my boat covered in the off season.










dick


----------



## hellosailor

"I often think they are just in it for the money.."
What, you don't buy your marine supplies exclusively from registered charities?

There are little tools to measure coating thickness while it is still wet. The cheapest and simplest is like a little comb, but each notch is precisely cut to a different depth, so you press it against the paint and read the "high water mark" on the comb, then solvent clean it. There are all kinds of fancy instruments to measure dry thickness afterwards, but the comb allows you to know the job is right while it is still uncured. And with gelcoat, you'd have to build the thickness before it cured, or else make sure to clean in between coats to get proper bonding between them. 

Thickness may not be critical, but there are lots of old boats with spider cracks because the gelcoat was too thick, which made it too stiff. And of course, more than "enough" also means more expensive material and labor. Too thin, and you might sand away too much and not have as much protection or strength in it.

Sometimes seat-of-the-pants works just fine. After all, somebody wins in Vegas every day, too. 

I see so many cars and boats where the expensive finish has simply been trashed because folks were just too f*ing cheap to wax it from time to time...and have to cringe at the thought of what it costs to refinish anything, compared to just keeping it waxed.

Well...can't say I want to spend days washing and waxing a hull either. Someone's got to teach the high school kids that "free car wash!" isn't the only way to make tip money.


----------



## smackdaddy

I guess that's what I find so interesting about these kinds of threads...the notion of what "looks right" vs. what "_is_ right"...and the idea of what "looks perfect" when you're done vs. what "_still _looks great" years on when the "perfect" is long lost its initial sheen. The DIY conundrum.


----------



## chrisncate

smackdaddy said:


> I guess that's what I find so interesting about these kinds of threads...the notion of what "looks right" vs. what "_is_ right"...and the idea of what "looks perfect" when you're done vs. what "_still _looks great" years on when the "perfect" is long lost its initial sheen. The DIY conundrum.


Uh, SD? It's Brightside, so it'll need a repaint every two years. No real mystery there, and no conundrum at all. It's not complicated paint, it's all technique.

When I do my first Awlgrip job, _then_ we'll have that debate.


----------



## hellosailor

"Uh, SD? It's Brightside,"
"Did I measure the thickness of my coating? "

Oh, so it's PAINT not gelCOATing. That changes a lot of things.


----------



## chrisncate

hellosailor said:


> "Uh, SD? It's Brightside,"
> "Did I measure the thickness of my coating? "
> 
> Oh, so it's PAINT not gelCOATing. That changes a lot of things.


The error is completely on your part regarding any misunderstanding of what we were discussing.


----------



## smackdaddy

chrisncate said:


> We had to learn that paint is alive, if it wants to lay down it will - if it just doesn't want to work, it won't. Listen to what the paint is telling you, and if you feel like it's not going right - STOP. Wait till it wants to lay down nice.


Wow. Paint sounds like a freakin' spoiled supermodel with all the continual thinning, the moody complaining, and the laziness!

At what point do you just man up and kick it's runny ass?


----------



## chrisncate

smackdaddy said:


> Wow. Paint sounds like a freakin' spoiled supermodel with all the continual thinning, the moody complaining, and the laziness!
> 
> At what point do you just man up and kick it's runny ass?


Well...I _have_ screamed at more than one Interlux can of flag blue failure... it didn't help.

It just stared coldly back (it's a paint can after all), _daring_ me to give up and accept an amateur looking hack job.

I painted her three times and sanded it all off three times before I got it right you know...


----------



## MattSplatt

Preparation, preparation, preparation. ;-)

So *that's* how you got the surface so smooth!


----------



## TQA

One thing I have not heard discussed is will a new gelcoat applied over long time cured GRP be at risk of peeling off.

After all perceived wisdom is that polyester resin does not 'stick' well to cured GRP and this is the reason that epoxy is preferred for GRP repair work. 

So might it peel? Just asking.


----------



## tommays

I have to say in all honesty i spray well enough to get paid

1. PPG DCC Concept automotive is the only stuff i ever used that had well defined instructions that were correct in pretty much every aspect

Most auto stuff has a large selection of clearly defined reducers for the spraying conditions that take a LOT of the Voodoo out of it

2. Does Perfection work yes BUT don't even get me started about the BS they put me through during the white recall

3. Awlgrip rolls & tips nicely BUT its still Voodoo because your working outdoors in and ever changing environment with a paint that lives or dies on a 5 degree temperature change that you had not put in enough reducer to cover

4.There is NOT enough money in the world to get me to shoot more than bicycle quantity of anything but 545 primer without full blown top to bottom safety gear

All of this stuff paint or gelcoat when sprayed in large amounts will KILL YOU with a minor respirator screw-up PERIOD


----------



## sulli

bljones said:


> See, this is what i don't get. show me the savings in material cost to prove out your theory.
> 
> According to Evercote, you get 50 sq ft. per gallon at 20 mils
> 
> http://www.evercoat.com/imgs/pis/GELCOAT.pdf
> 
> Whereas you get over 10 times as much coverage with Interlux perfection
> Interlux Paint Coverage Chart
> 
> So, a cat with 2 16' x 2' x 1' hulls is 192 sq ft of surface to cover. 4 gallons of gelcoat or less than one gallon of paint.


I have been trying to figure whether to re-gel or paint my p-30. I'm retired so time is free and I enjoy working on something. The cost is what staggers me on awlgrip so unless I got it wrong a gallon of 545, gallon of converter for it a gallon top coat, converter for it then the thinners and so on the order was over $700 and climbing. On the other side of the equation 2 gallons of gel coat and related additives, thinners $150-200. I own an air powered wet sander which will help speed it along. I spoke with the kid who does it professionally at our yard he said while his boss will do both for a customer he jokes with awlgrip we'll see him again in a few years. As to touchup on awlgrip forget about it, gel retouches nicely. I believe Jamestown's figures on the paint are per coat with at least 2 coats that thin required so at least double maybe triple the paint estimate.


----------



## hellosailor

"3. Awlgrip rolls & tips nicely BUT its still Voodoo because your working outdoors "

There's no doubt that working indoors, in a huge and costly climate-controlled shed with EPA approved ventilation and recovery systems is going to ka-ching the price of any job, but there's a strong rumor going around that it also totally removes the voodoo element from paint jobs. As well as the stray bugs, bits of plant matter, all that fun stuff.

Isn't the gelcoat more difficult to apply, and less forgiving?


----------



## tommays

sulli said:


> I have been trying to figure whether to re-gel or paint my p-30. I'm retired so time is free and I enjoy working on something. The cost is what staggers me on awlgrip so unless I got it wrong a gallon of 545, gallon of converter for it a gallon top coat, converter for it then the thinners and so on the order was over $700 and climbing. On the other side of the equation 2 gallons of gel coat and related additives, thinners $150-200. I own an air powered wet sander which will help speed it along. I spoke with the kid who does it professionally at our yard he said while his boss will do both for a customer he jokes with awlgrip we'll see him again in a few years. As to touchup on awlgrip forget about it, gel retouches nicely. I believe Jamestown's figures on the paint are per coat with at least 2 coats that thin required so at least double maybe triple the paint estimate.


Well you do have to spray enough gelcoat (it will orange peel)to be able to wetsand it flat and buff in that shine

Your also mixing and shooting in at the most 15 minute cycles

Come up a little short on and outside corner and start spraying and sanding again 

As has been said before I have never seen a 30' hull RE - gel coated after the first time in the mold due to the labor in the sanding ?

Plenty of repairs not any complete do overs


----------



## smackdaddy

In the end I painted my beachcat - and it looks great. No doubt. But it was definitely more expensive than the gelcoat would have been (at the least the stuff I was looking at). AND it does get knicked pretty easily (not a great thing for a beachcat).

In the end I wish I would have tried the gelcoat. I honestly don't think it would have looked as good as the paint (since I was rolling not spraying) - bit it would have been a more sensible finish for my beachcat I think.


----------



## tommays

Smack you would have been wet sanding two fairly TINY hulls which even I would have taken a shot at 



Spend 8+++ hours on a ladder wet sanding the 545 which is easy stuff and then do the math on how many weeks you would be wet sanding gel


----------



## smackdaddy

Yeah Tom, but you forget my 10' rule. As long as it looks pretty good from 10' away, I'm cool with it.

You go by the 4" rule. Your work is awesome.

My bar is much, much lower.


----------



## SloopJonB

tommays said:


> Well you do have to spray enough gelcoat (it will orange peel)to be able to wetsand it flat and buff in that shine
> 
> Your also mixing and shooting in at the most 15 minute cycles
> 
> Come up a little short on and outside corner and start spraying and sanding again
> 
> As has been said before I have never seen a 30' hull RE - gel coated after the first time in the mold due to the labor in the sanding ?
> 
> Plenty of repairs not any complete do overs


I've seen a 28' power cruiser re-gelled and it came out very well. There are new formulations that don't orange peel like the G.O.D.'s - I had a pro shoot some pretty big patches on my 43' - like 15' X 3' - and it required very little sanding, less than the rest of the chalked gelcoat. I started with 400 wet if that clarifies it.


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## hellosailor

I confess to having no desire to spray gel coat. But I keep seeing the same scurrilous rumors on the web, all saying that if you get the solvents right, do the spray properly, and avoid working outdoors in full sunlight (ahem) it is possible to spray gel coat without getting orange peel.

Working outdoors without environmental controls will complicate any coating job, turning it into a matter of experienced guesses as to temperature, humidity, and sunlight and how that will affect the solvent. That's a lot to expect from a "painter".


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## christian.hess

we gelcoated on the hook in 90 degree humid weather down here

not a perfect job but also not the nightmare people say it is

it also wasnt as expensive as going the paint route


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## northoceanbeach

How much do you think it costs to redo do the entire gel coat on a 26 foot sailboat?


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## ravinracin

North, Do you mean topsides and hull both above and below the water line?


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## attrezzop

Sorry to bump an old post but I don't know why so many people get fooled by the paint vs gelcoat debate and choose paint. There are basically two ways, the cheap patch or the permanant fix. If your base gelcoat isn't cracking badly or flaking off of the hull and you don't want to change the color then you are in luck sir. Watch a video on gelcoat repair and a few hours later your hull can look as good as new. 

Otherwise if you simply want to change the color, painting may be the way to go. 

However, If your OEM gelcoat is cracking, flaking, or otherwise separating from the layer below it it will have to be sanded off before you do anything. Otherwise, no matter what finish you use, how liberally or perfectly you apply it, or what the finish looks like or how soon, you'll have many repairs in the future due to the original gelcoat flaking off of the hull and maiming your final finish. People who paint don't see evidence of this (or admit it as quickly) because they'll repaint many times before enough flaking has happened to cause heartache. IE they're constantly painting over the problem.

In terms of long term maintenance there is no better solution than gelcoat. A good gelcoat can be sanded and buffed to a brand new finish many, MANY times before any significant maintenance needs to be done. Where is anyone getting that chips and cracks are hard to repair? It's a four step process, clean the crack or chip with sanding, color match the gelcoat, catalyze and apply, then sand and buff to the hull. Guess what it is with paint... The same process unless you want to risk your paint flaking due to an improperly prepared surface.

Many modern boat manufacturers that use paint and gelcoat do this because colored gelcoat is porous and is essentially the cause of the infamous osmosis bubbles on your hull bottom. So they gelcoat clear and paint over that on bottoms because it makes a better hull. This has nothing to do with topsides or finish. 

Basically, this translates to, if you have a 30+ year old boat with lots of OEM gelcoat cracking and so on, you're in for a big job. It doesn't matter if you paint or gelcoat at that point because you'll be sanding pretty much the entire hull before you put a drop of new finish on that boat. For big projects like this I highly recommend you rent a pressure washer, buy a blasting attachment (@$70), and soda blast the hull. You'll thank yourself when you're done with the initial sanding and cleaning in an hour rather than it taking days. That said, I HIGHLY recommend removing the fittings in your way. The end job will look 100 times better guaranteed. Doesn't matter if you paint or gelcoat, spray or roll. Taking the fittings off will absolutely make the entire process sooooooo much easier once you start to paint. The only time I'd ever skip that time consuming step is if my work was just to patch. If I'm doing a color change or having to do extensive work on the original finish just take the time to remove all the fittings and really anything in your way. Don't do a thing until that's done. You will almost certainly run across other damage you'll need to fix along the way and you'll save yourself years of work later.

All kinds of issues like de-lamination and soft hulls, rotting core, stripped out or poorly bedded fittings will rear their head while you're out of the water and ready to work on them and not a year later when you want to be sailing and not hauling out for yet another "quick" fix. 

If I haven't made a good case yet... ANY TIME YOU DO MAJOR FINISH WORK TAKE THE TIME TO REMOVE ANY FITTING IN YOUR WAY. If you do this then I promise, though it may result in more work now, you will get a good 10 years out of your boat before you will have to do ANY major repair because you will have addressed all of the most common minor issues that lead to major issues. Done right the finish, the hull integrity, and the boat will easily outlive you.

Said one more time in another way, if you paint an older boat with gelcoat problems without stripping and pulling fittings you're begging for a seasonal repairjob. If you paint period you'll be painting again in 5-10 years.. (everything) If you take the time to do a good gelcoat and remove all the fittings and once finished you buff and wax once or twice a season, you can will the boat to your grandchildren and never have to do another major repair or refinish for the rest of your life. 

I honestly can't think of a single reason I'd paint other than if I just hated the color of the boat and the gelcoat was still in good condition.


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## attrezzop

Also a note on sanding a gelcoat.

Duratec makes a high-gloss additive to gelcoat that will help you get less orange peel in a spray. Not a bad product if you follow the directions. (most products are like that).

After you apply new gelcoat you will have to sand down the orange peel, this is labor intensive. But it is easily done by hand on a small (25-22') boat in an afternoon. Be sure to use a solid, flat, sanding block. 

As for sanding and buffing (relatively undamaged) older gelcoats. Start at 600 grit wet by hand on really badly oxidized gelcoats and work your way to 2000. Then polish, finish, and buff. You won't believe the difference. Do all of this by hand, so many people think machines will make it easy when many times they sand too long and drag huge scratches through the gelcoat forcing them to go back and keep sanding. The results are so much better when you take the time to do it by hand. You don't have to apply tons of pressure just sand.


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## hellosailor

"Sorry to bump an old post but I don't know why so many people get fooled by the paint vs gelcoat debate"
Probably because it has been only recently that gelcoat materials which can cure in the presence of air, have become available or semi-well-known.

Traditional gelcoats, which are still the only gelcoats most people know about, can't just be sprayed on. So, more complications, and no tradition of being used for repaints.


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## BlueWind

If memory serves me, the first gelcoat sprayed in the boat mold will only cure in an anarobic state when the fiberglass is layed in. I've seen directions to create this environment for repairs later on the boat and it involves covering the gelcoat and removing the air. Just my two cents. Thanks


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## BluemanSailor

there are a couple of gelcoat additives - besides wax- that you can add to the gelcoat before spraying so that you don't have to cover the gelcoat for it to cure- one is Duratec Hi-gloss additive - been using it on my boat repairs and it works great!


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## deltaten

Hmmmm?
A two-part, (poly?)urethane, catalized paint : or a two-part polyurethane catalized resin job....
Other than the base resins and colorants....what's the diff?
Thickness?
bond?
flexability?
Anecdotal evidence suggests that I'd be fine with spraying gel. A dock mate sprayed a rebuilt deck and center console. for a buddy's boat. A bit of orange-peel in the corners and such; but nothing. horrible. The CCcame out better,as it was already GC'd and smooth. just needed a touch-up.twoyears out and it's still holding..so.....


That come. back to the "epoxy-over-polyester', never the reverse, question ANd what about vinyl-ester as a finish? Anyone ever spray that?


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## RichH

deltaten said:


> That comes back to the "epoxy-over-polyester', never the reverse, question ANd what about vinyl-ester as a finish? Anyone ever spray that?


Why? ... when the reason for the use of vinyl-ester is to greatly retard 'water permeation' into the matting and roving ... not needed on topsides, etc. as you really dont need need a barrier to water permeation above the waterline, unless you happen to have a submarine. ;-)


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## sulli

northoceanbeach said:


> How much do you think it costs to redo do the entire gel coat on a 26 foot sailboat?


ABOUT 25% the cost of painting and there is a lot of sanding either way.
With the gel coat wipe to remove wax and just sand the old for tooth (2 quick, dry 80 grit passes).
Then lay on 3 coats 1 1/2 hrs apart (temp variance), last coat with wax added or Dura-tech hi- gloss additive.
I will post photos of my P30 after its done, the weather has not been cooperating at all here in NJ.
I think Awlgrip requires more prep,more expensive products,is not repairable, paint once always paint. Just my humble opinion I may be wrong, just ask my wife.
Walt


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## deltaten

RichH;
was two diff questions.
sorry if confused.


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## shananchie

Here's another thought: One-part poly like Brightside.

I have a dark blue hull that had faded and chipped Awlgrip. I spent parts of three days in the yard prepping and painting with flag blue Brightside. That was two years ago.

Most of the hull still looks like the day it was painted, even though it is in the South Florida sun. I had a few minor scratches. No problem. They were fixed in an hour, unlike Awlgrip, which is difficult to patch properly.

Does it pass the test? I've had two yacht brokers offer unsolicited to list the boat for me in the last six months, at a time when other people are desperate to sell theirs. So I think it looks OK.

This is an old CCA boat with a full keel, one where you regularly come close to burying the rail. That has had no effect on the paint. 

Sure, I might have to repaint in a couple of years. No big deal. 

The important thing to remember is these are boats, not living room furniture. What's important is how they sail, not whether you can see your reflection in the topsides. 

If you're getting the most out of your boat, it's not going to look like a museum piece.


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## tommays

I sail on a boat with over 20 year OLD white Awlgrip









At some point there is only one realistic path 




















So my paint that will only last 2 years is now UP TO FOUR YEARS and the gelcoat fans have yet to post a 30' size range boat with costs and labor

NEVER MIND the risk to A DIY of spraying that much material


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## hellosailor

tommy, of course your hull still looks marvelous. It knows that if it gives _you _any sass, you'll just sand it and strip it and give the hull something better to wear. (VBG)


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## SailRedemption

You just don't get the gloss and shine like awlgrip though...  Just finished my boat last month.

And awlgrip is stronger than I ever tho, after the boat I race on, which has awlgrip, hit Port to port during a race with another boat, not a scratch, scuff, or crack. It wasn't a love tap either.










Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## christian.hess

awesome job man! that kaufman is going to be a real looker


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## SloopJonB

Going to be??? Kaufman (both of them ) boats are some of the best looking boats out there.


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## christian.hess

yes its going to be! already looks better than when he bought it...


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## SailRedemption

Thanks, definitely better than I got it.. Just need to get it in the water!


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## raymondgutoski

bandaidmd said:


> to get a decent gelcoat job it is very labor intensive.
> spray ,sand, buff. or
> roll it on ,sand,sand,sand,sand and sand some more than buff
> 
> paint; roll it on and go have fun
> 
> (prepwork is the same so i didn't include that)


Depends on what you REALLY want. Perfectionism on one project often keeps us from enjoying life in other areas on then other hand sometimes being OCD is fun.


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