# Holy CoW [email protected][email protected]



## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

Wow, am I excited.

.... Okay, are you ready for this?

We are not buying a Catalina 27 or a CS 27.

But instead, are putting in an offer tomorrow for a 1982 32' Bayfield (Ted Gozzard design) cutter rig, fully equipped for blue water sailing  And we're heading to Mexico!

Here she is.
YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale

HAs anyone owned this boat before? tell me what you think of it.

I fell in love with this boat at first site, then brought the miss to it and she fell in love with it too, more than I did, In fact. lol, done deal.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Oh Gawd...you are truly a lost soul now. A REAL sea going boat with pretty lines. Time to re-order checks from the bank!! <g>
Good luck with the offer and survey!


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

Mwahahahahaha yeepeee!

My heart is pounding with the thrill of adventure. It's like the first time I had sex!


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## soul searcher (Jun 28, 2006)

I told you Every thing has a reason 
congrats and by the way GROOVY UPHOLSTERY MAN!

Matt


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Good luck with the survey and sea trial... You are getting a survey and sea trial, right???

Have fun... when are you planning on casting off the docklines?


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Kacper said:


> Mwahahahahaha yeepeee!
> 
> My heart is pounding with the thrill of adventure. It's like the first time I had sex!


Well, if that's true, ' IT GOES IN THE WATER !!! ' 

Congrats, beauty of a boat


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Wow. Good boat, reasonable price if it checks out. It looks very nice cosmetically, but then Bayfields seem to inspire devotion to detailing.

There's about three of them at my club and while they seem to induce an endless desire to sand and varnish in their owners, I do notice them out in the crap weather I like to sail in. They appear weatherly and well-found and Gozzard is a decent builder with some unusual ideas in his bigger boats. The Bayfield 32 is not particularly eccentric, however, and while the tankage and stowage mean it's probably only a bluewater boat for at the most a skinny couple, it's not going to come apart in a blow. Here's a bit of commentary: Bayfield 32 - Used Sailboat Market in Canada

Congratulations, and fair winds!


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Kacper said:


> Mwahahahahaha yeepeee!
> 
> My heart is pounding with the thrill of adventure. It's like the first time I had sex!


If you were like me the first time, the thrill is going to be over real soon.

Nice looking boat! Looks like she was well taken care of. Good luck.


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Good luck with the survey and sea trial... You are getting a survey and sea trial, right???
> 
> Have fun... when are you planning on casting off the docklines?


 Of course  She is in outstanding condition so I think the survey will go well. I'm going to offer something like 68,000 or 70,000

There is the exact same boat for sale in Vancouver, for only $65K except, crappier upholstery, not so much personalized on the inside.

THIS boat, has been VERY well taken care of. And it has BRAND NEW sails  and windlass. I think a 70 K offer is reasonable

I've never sailed a cutter rigged boat, so this will be a fun new experience. What are the main differences in cutter rigs? From what I've heard it can't point up into the wind as much.

What the advantages and disadvantages  ?

I like the fact there's more sails. It gives me more lines to play with.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Lower, looooowerrrrrrr.
If you are going to Mexico and ICW, you will be happy with the stay sail. Cam can fill you in. He knows much more about it than me.


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

You think 68 is too much? What would your offer be?

Let me know, this is still my first boat buying experience, so it would be good to have some second opinions


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

its a great boat, looks well taken care of...
make sure you've got a place for extra water and fuel!


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

First off, if you love the boat, just do what you feel is right. 

Here is what I would consider. How long has it been on the market. How long have the other Bayfields been on the market. How do the other ones compare to yours. Are there even any others. 
Heres my example.
I found my boat by accident, wasn't even looking at CS. Did some research, found that the price had been reduced and was lower than the rest for sale. I knew I had to snatch it up, But I still went 10 percent below asking. They expect that at least. 

But hey, its a dream right? And you're close, so just go for it, get the survey, you may have chances there to get the price down if you want.
Good luck, Kacper!


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## EscapadeCaliber40LRC (Sep 25, 2006)

There's another Bayfield 32 Cutter listed in the same source that is 1989 also located in the Northwest, so newer and yet only asking 47.5K You might want to comparison shop it to figure out why it so much cheaper and nevertheless give you some ammunition to help in negotiation for the one you truly love.


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

hey Escape,

I think you may be looking at a different size of boat. I couldnt find the one you were talking about.

There is the exact same boat in west van for 65K, but it doesnt have new sails. It has the original mast, and no new "brand new gear" like this one does.


If you did see it, can you post the link?


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## EscapadeCaliber40LRC (Sep 25, 2006)

I went to your yachtworld reference and selected "boats for sale" then entered "bayfield cutter and hit the select button. It appears to be the same to me. A 32 foot 1989 bayfield cutter in Puget Sound. So should be close enough to visit. My search results:

YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale


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## EscapadeCaliber40LRC (Sep 25, 2006)

There is also another one in Canada asking 41K (US). I am not saying anything more than buy the one you love with your heart but use your head when you go to negotiate it. These other two boats are certainly pricewise cheaper, probably for good reason, but they can help you justify a lower than asking price offer. I am sure the seller of the boat you love is aware of his competition, so no harm in using this knowledge to help you get the best deal.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Go to the Boat US website and search the buyers guide. They will give you an average ACTUAL SALE PRICE within a few days. I think you will be suprised at how much the real average sale price is.


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## billangiep (Dec 10, 2003)

*Bayfield*

Kacper,
I'm an owner of a Bayfield 32c and absolutely love it. The yankee stay-sail combination gives you lots of options when the weather gets stinky and contrary to popular believe sail quite well to weather but not all that great on a run. I single hand in some of the club races and with the smaller head sails rarely do I need a wench handle. With four trophy's on the dresser it's hardly a slug but then I'm not competing with go fast boats such as Mr. Giul's.








Bill,
billangiep/Bayfield 32c - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Even though she's been on the market for only 4 months, the market's still a bit soft and brokers are hungry for commissions. I would start with an offer _at least_ 20% below the listed price. Then, adjust appropriately if your surveyor finds any big ticket issues.

That's quite a jump from a C27 - considering the vast disparity in comparison. If your negotiations prove to be successful, then welcome to the elite group of quality, blue water cruisers.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

My big concern for any "blue water" yacht would be fuel and water, 35gal for water is a bit light, as far as fuel its not to bad, should give @ 40 Hrs.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Such is true re: tankage. I owned a 28 foot coastal cruiser with a 35 gal water tank - and that was tight. After enjoying the current benefits of a 140 gal water tank and 160 gal diesel tankage, we realize how disadvantaged we were with past boats.


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## Ronbye (Nov 16, 2005)

A friend of mine had the same model of the Bayfield 32, 1983. It too was excellent shape. It is an excellent boat when the going gets rough. She needs a lot of wind though, and is not extremely fast. Much like my own boat. Nice to see that she has a Yanmar diesal. My friends boat had a Faryman diesal with hydraulic drive. He had nothing but trouble with both. If it pans out that you buy the boat, you won't be disappointed.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Having only studied your boats (as you might know Im on my way soon to get one and sail it home) I have been using NADA Appraisal Guides, although super conservative they lists a basic 1982 32' Bayfield at $23100 in average condition with no big money items, this figure is along way from the asking price. Unless this boat is a fully restored and compleatly refitted example its expensive. 
*Average Retail Value - An average retail valued boat should be in good condition with no visible damage or defects. This boat will show moderate wear and tear and will be in sound running condition. The buyer may need to invest in either minor cosmetic or mechanical work.*


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Kacper, I'd do some more research and give yourself time to get a bit of a grip and think outside the excitement of the moment. (take a cold shower<g>)

Jumping from a C27 to a B32, (and from $8K to $70K) is all a bit much and a bit sudden to my mind. My gut feeling is that that's a pretty high asking price, even with the improvements and uggrades for a 32foot boat of that vintage.

If you're truly off the Mexico, fine. But that boat will be a bit of a frustrating one to sail on our normal cruising waters of the PNW. And, if you're off to Mexico, check the market in California - maybe you'll find one less expensive on your way there.....

I understand your excitement and enthusiasm, but at the moment it's probably not serving you well.

All the best.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Kacper,

Just a quick note to say I like it.

- CD


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

Hey guys 

Well, we offered 64,500 , 20% below.

Thy have come back with 72,000. They said the owner boought it for 80K and ut in 25K into it.

This boat belongs to the brokerage, as the previous owner traded it in while buying a new Jeanneau. And the broker says they would like to get their "money back" on the deal.

It has been redone inside. And they put in Radar as well. Brand new sails, brand new windlass, hardly used Yanmar engine. Fully enclosed dodger

I don't doubt the owner put the money into it, because it shows, but I'm a little skeptical that the boat is really worth that much. After all, boats don't really "appreciate."

Hmm...

I still love the boat, but after a little comparison and your suggestions it does seem like a high price for this boat. Probably the reason why it's been on the market for 2 years.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Any boat that is overpriced is going to sit there until either 1) the price comes down to what the real value of the boat is, or 2) some idiot buys it at an overinflated price.

If you think about it... your final offer price should generally include what you think the boat is worth, minus whatever you want to take off depending on the survey results, and possibly the projected costs of storing, hauling and maintaining the boat. This is how a very good friend of mine plans his offers on boats, and he gives the owner of the boat all the numbers and shows how he came up with the figure... _

Don't forget that storage, maintenance and hauling costs are something that the seller will have to pay if they don't sell it...and the boat will continue to depreciate, and will generally degrade just sitting there waiting to sell. _ It is a point you can often use to your favor.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Kacper...sounds like a good boat. If you thought your offer was realistic and his counter is high...but you love the boat...it seems to me you have two options:
- Make a counter offer of say...67as your "final offer" subject to survey/sea trial etc.
-Walk away for a week or so and let the broker know, you've decided to keep looking t some of the others on the market but to give you a buzz if the owner changes his mind. 
- Of course the third option is to pay 72...but you aren't THAT crazy!!

My guess is that the owner is trying to clear 65k after brokers fee. Since there is only one broker involved...perhaps he can help make the deal since he has no split comission to worry about. 
As far as the two options go...the risk of walking away is that IF you have to come back crawling to buy it you will be paying 72k. Also...you could lose the boat to another (unlikely...but it is springtime). Therefore...I would just increase your offer a bit and encourage the broker to make the deal happen!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Cam is right: Offer $67,500 contingent on survey (and hope it finds little to deal-break!) if you really want it. A new radar...phhfftt. Nice, but a new type of digital radar is coming shortly that promises to reduce the amp draw of radar significantly, and autopilots and radar are two and three after fridges for battery draw-down.

Electronics depreciate faster than anything, unless they are some sort of bulletproof technology that people like because it does one thing very well, which is why I still have a working Seamaster III cathode depth sounder aboard... but it's the bones of the boat you pay for, not what some guy installed as an accessory.


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## soul searcher (Jun 28, 2006)

Kacper, If you get that boat you need to paint it like this to match the upholstry

http://svsereia.com/photos/2006/May/pimp.htm

Just teasing. 
thought you might need a little humor.
I hope you get the boat And a fresh repower is worth something.

Matt


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

That was classic


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

soul searcher- 

You have WAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY too much free time on your hands...


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Mat
That was great. but I couldnt down load a copy.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Soul Searcher - thanks, that was great. I hope they used tempera paint!


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

*Call me Crazy*

Update:

LOL. Okay, then I'm the idiot that's paying 72 K 

We countered 68K. They said no, 72 is their final offer...

Anyway, my thinking process is a long story behind saying "yes" - but we said "yes"

So, onwards to the sea trial and survey(s)

I liked the video 

Kacper


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

by the way guys, this is Canadian Currency  so 72 is 62 USD


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I wouldn't call you crazy, merely besmitten. Best of luck with the survey.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Enjoy and fit more water.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Congrats Kacper

In the end, it's really how YOU feel about the boat and the deal that's important.

They are pretty, shippy boats - hope you like maintaining exterior teak!

How's the moorage situation - still Pt Roberts?


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

soul searcher said:


> Kacper, If you get that boat you need to paint it like this to match the upholstry
> 
> Pimp My Ride
> 
> ...


I've sent that to other sailors. Funny stuff. The woman missed her calling, I think.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Kacper said:


> by the way guys, this is Canadian Currency  so 72 is 62 USD


OH! Well that makes a difference. Doh! Sounds good to me, go for it and good luck!


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

Faster said:


> Congrats Kacper
> 
> In the end, it's really how YOU feel about the boat and the deal that's important.
> 
> ...


Yes indeed. I will enjoy the short sail from english bay to Point Roberts. It's a much shorter trip, and we'll probably be going down wind the whole time anyway


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Kacper said:


> Yes indeed. I will enjoy the short sail from english bay to Point Roberts. It's a much shorter trip, and we'll probably be going down wind the whole time anyway


Fair warnng - the best way to get serious headwinds is to count on downwind conditions ahead of time!!

The offer of assistance still stands....


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Faster said:


> Fair warnng - the best way to get serious headwinds is to count on downwind conditions ahead of time!!


Ain't that the truth...


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

Great! headwinds  We'll see how she performs upwind.

Faster, sure, i'd love for you to come along looks like it will probably be near May now.


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## Sabre66 (Feb 3, 2007)

please check that price! There are 5 Bayfield 32's ranging from $39,500 to $49,000 hereBayfield Used Boats for Sale | A Boat Trader Directory of Yachts and Boats


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> What the advantages and disadvantages ?


Bayfields were built near here, and the person who was responsible for their design and build quality is currently in business on his own - Ted Gozzard - and has a sterling reputation.

I have sailed on a couple a 25 and a 36. Found the 25 to be an idea that should never have come to fruition, and the 36 is a boat that I would seriously head off anywhere on.

As far as quality goes, the boats are in the upper tier of production boats. There are a lot of them in Ontario and you don't hear about them having the litany of problems that C&C's and CS's do (not, of course, that there is any boat better than a CS  ).

The reputation that they have for being slow and heavy, comes in large part from the people who sail them here on the Great Lakes, where winds are light and sea conditions never really approach what Bayfield's have been designed to handle. That said, they are not nimble, but I think you have made an excellent choice for a sea-going boat.

Negatives - you are paying a premium. If the boat surveys well, then it is money well spent "you can never pay too much for a good boat and you can never pay too little for a bad one". But now that you have put your offer in, at asking, you need to jump on every little thing that the surveyor notes, and demand a bit of a reduction. The listing broker is expecting this, so don't be embarassed about doing it.

Be prepared for an incredibly unpleasant negotiation process. Buying a boat through a broker is far more protracted and usually a lot uglier than buying a house. Remember, that as long as the boat is "under contract" i.e.: you still have the offer on the table that they are working with, nobody can come in and scoop it up from under your nose. So don't be afraid to scream, swear, wave your arms threateningly and question the mans's ancestry. If he didn't enjoy things like that he wouldn't be a broker. 

Make sure he knows you are prepared to walk.

The two most important things you want to have in your final offer:

a) A detailed list of equipment that comes with the boat. Make sure that your offer specifically states that this list forms part of the offer.

b) That the equipment listed is in good working order, to be verified at sea trial.

As hard as it will be, if you encounter problems with getting the broker to include these clauses, THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE GEAR THAT YOU ARE PAYING A PREMIUM FOR AND YOU NEED TO FIND ANOTHER ONE.

If the boat has been on the market for a while, then they are going to be very reluctant to lose you.

Personally, based on the information you have given, I think that the boat is probably in great shape and that the broker is holding out for a price because he knows it. Often, trade-ins are not in good condition and the broker takes a loss on the trade in order to sell the new unit. If he's not prepared to do that here, it's because the boat is a good one.

That said - knock 2K off from the survey and buy yourself a set of really great wet weather gear. ( I wouldn't worry too much about sunglasses out there on the left coast  ) Congratulations !


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

As far as pricing goes, looking at the Bayfield site, Yachtworld and Boat for Sale . Net, I think it's an okay price. The sails are new - that's about 9K Cdn., there is new cockpit canvas - figure 4K there, radar at 3K, and as far as those boats go - it's one of the later models... so if your base is 50K, add the go-fasters and the prettifiers and you're close to 70....( Cdn.)


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

Sabre66 wrote...


> please check that price! There are 5 Bayfield 32's ranging from $39,500 to $49,000 hereBayfield Used Boats for Sale | A Boat Trader Directory of Yachts and Boats


 Yeah, that alarmed me first too.

Looked at all of them, and even took a look at some in the docks nearby.

Most of the lower priced Bayfields here are in pretty shabby condition externally and internally. THere's one that looks like it's been sitting in the water for 10+ years without anyone using it. It has seaweed the size of my fingers growing from the hull 

This boat is in outstanding condition, it just needs a power wash and a buff, and a little wood decor fix on the bow-sprit.


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

Hey Sailormann,

Thank you for the analysis of the boat and your confidence  I'm feeling better and better about the boat everytime I go to see it.

The sea trial is scheduled for the 24th. We'll do the Survey the day after that, and if all goes well she's "coming home" with us that day 

I don't think the boat is a "slug" as they call it. The previous owner had a blast in the gulf islands with it and didn't complain about the speed. I also heard many great things about the boats handling and the beating she can take out in the Ocean, where I am headed.

I am in love with the boat and the twin sails 

It's also nice to have your first boat come with brand new spanking stiff sails.

I am thinking of putting an additional stay by the staysail for a storm jib as well. 

If a man must be possessed by something, the best thing that could be is a boat


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## redcorvette1995 (Jun 16, 2005)

She's a pretty thing!


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## Sabre66 (Feb 3, 2007)

Kacper said:


> Hey Sailormann,
> 
> Thank you for the analysis of the boat and your confidence  I'm feeling better and better about the boat every time I go to see it.
> 
> ...


I'm possessed alright! My boat likes the my wallet more than my wife does. Because racing is breaking and I do all the fixing! 
BTW I wasn't trying to rain on your parade but one of the boats I posted a link to said it was in 'perfect' condition. I'm a big believer in extensively researching anything before I buy. Good luck with the new boat she's a beauty.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Kacper said:


> I am thinking of putting an additional stay by the staysail for a storm jib as well.
> 
> If a man must be possessed by something, the best thing that could be is a boat


I think the general consensus is forming (pretty rare for a bunch of sailing types, I know!) that you've got a good deal. Not a bargain, but not a gouge, either, and the torch of good maintenance is likely being passed. Congratulations.

Keep in mind that if you put in a Hyfield lever-type stay for a storm staysail (which is a very good idea in that part of the world), you might need running backstays. Ask the owner if he's got some already made up, but not on the boat. Some owners, who decide not to run cutter-style, have these and then essentially forget about them.


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

What are running back-stays, and why are they necessary for the storm jib stay?

Wouldn't the original back-stays be able to take the strain? Since if the storm jib is up, all the other sails would probably not be in use at that time, except a tripple reefed main or storm sail


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Kacper said:


> What are running back-stays, and why are they necessary for the storm jib stay?
> 
> Wouldn't the original back-stays be able to take the strain? Since if the storm jib is up, all the other sails would probably not be in use at that time, except a tripple reefed main or storm sail


Some storm jib stays don't go as high up on the mast. To prevent them from bending the mast, you need running backstays mounted to the mast at the same height as the storm jib stay, which are then used when you put up the storm jib.


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## Gary M (May 9, 2006)

I had a friend buy a new Bayfield 32 as his first boat, got used mainly as a floating cottage since he had no idea how to sail and did not seem inclined to learn. 
One year he needed to move it across Lake Huron to ,where else, but Bayfield. Since he was reluctant to sail across I offerred to take it. 
I was pleasantly surprised at how well it went to weather in fairly light air. I am almost stricly a racer and was not sure what to expect of the cutter rig and heavier boat but it went quite well. 

Of course you will never catch me sailing downwind without a chute but that is a different story.  

You will enjoy it.

Gary


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

What SD said...Running backstays and when and why and where to rig them isn't so difficult to learn, and because they are essentially purchases with a cam cleat, they aren't difficult to operate, but like reefing, you need to have the gear at the ready. That means a lot of the time they will be stowed. There's several equally good ways to do this, so ask people who have them how they are used. The purpose of them is to provide a countervailing force against the strong wind pressure on the storm staysail (properly, a storm jib goes on the forestay in concert with a deeply reefed main or a trysail).


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

> I had a friend buy a new Bayfield 32 as his first boat, got used mainly as a floating cottage


 That should be a crime


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Kacper said:


> That should be a crime


He should be keelhauled, preferably on a barnacle-laden keel.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Of course you will never catch me sailing downwind without a chute but that is a different story.


My CS can catch and sail by anything - downwind, up wind, tailwind or breaking wind, chute or not !


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sailormann said:


> My CS can catch and sail by anything - downwind, up wind, tailwind or breaking wind, chute or not !


Yeah... right... try catching this:


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Hey!! Comparing that CS to a Tri; is like comparing Apples to Oranges. Or a 8' sabot to a sail board.

Otherwise this thread is like a Shakespeare play: Much ado about Nothing.

No! I am not challenging any one here.... I know better.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Boasun-

He did say he could catch and sail by anything...  Besides, my opinion is highly biased in favor of trimarans for some strange reason...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Yeah... right... try catching this


Not a problem - we'll just put three of our CS's together and form a little fleet like buddy up there...I meant that I could catch any ONE boat - so take your pick - one of the three - slice it off, line it up and we're off to the races...



> Otherwise this thread is like a Shakespeare play


We're very flattered with the allusion to the bard, I believe that several of us harbour private dreams of literary immortality  The encouragement will do much to reinforce our determination


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Umm.. Sailormann, I hate to break it to you, that is one boat... and you'd have no prayer of catching it... Now if you are too scared to chase a trimaran, you could always try and catch this:










But now you'll probably start whining about how they have more crew than you do...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The one where theyre all getting ready to jump off over the side ???? (mind you I would be too - looks like that keel is wobbling back and forth  )


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

SD - ya need to shrink your pics - most of us aren't using a 50" LCD


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

LOL... really, i thought they were pretty standard nowadays..


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Sailormann said:


> SD - ya need to shrink your pics - most of us aren't using a 50" LCD


Hey, I just installed one. Wires hidden in the wall and everything.

Unfortunately, it was a job, so it's not in my house.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

I installed a Panasonic 50" plasma in the Family Room over a year ago . . . just took this pic a few seconds ago. It's funny how it seemed so big at first, but gradually shrunk after a while.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TB-

You really need to get one of these:










The one you've got is way too small.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

TB

That looks a lot like the one I installed, accept I did a wall mount higher up, with the AC and AV jacks behind the TV, then coming out down low at regular outlet hight, so there's no exposed lines hanging down from the unit.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Actually Charlie, that is a wall mount installation. I used a HD, low profile wall bracket, snaked all power and A/V cables between wall studs and installed terminal junction boxes/plates above and below. 

Did away with the stand. The cable box gives the illusion that the set is resting upon the console - but it's not. I built the flanking wall shelf units in 1977 and the base console last year to match . . . notice the aging difference?

The plasma is set low to align with the optimum veiwing angle. The biggest mistake people make is mounting the unit too high - results in sore necks.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Also, mounting the TV too high leads to your eyes drying out... center of the screen should be a bit below the viewer's eye-level IIRC from my computer ergonomics specs...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> ...funny how it seemed so big at first, but gradually shrunk after a while....


_said the actress to the bishop_


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

TrueBlue said:


> The plasma is set low to align with the optimum veiwing angle. The biggest mistake people make is mounting the unit too high - results in sore necks.


I Agree. But in the end, the customer gets what the customer wants.


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

lol 

How did we get from talking about my boat buying decisions to plasma TVs?


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Apparently, someone was using a solar stik, which because it was outputting an unnatural amount of power, caused a solar flare, which disabled the GPS....... and that's how you got from there to here


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

My fault... have a big screen monitor and some other people are jealous...  BTW, I don't have a 50" monitor on this machine.. just 15.4" and 30" LCD screens... 

LOL.... I like John's excuse better..


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## billangiep (Dec 10, 2003)

*Back on Topic*

Kacper, 
For what it's worth the asking price prior to my purchase of our Bayfield was $39,000. After a refit in 2003 I estimate we have a bit over $60,000 in her with myself doing all but the canvas, tranny rebuild and Algriping the new sheer and boot stripes. Here is a link to a few photo's of our 1983 32c... billangiep/Bayfield 32c - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
Bill,


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

The plasma is nice...but the speakers suck! (g)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Cam-

What, you didn't put in a new surround sound system to go with the Phat screen.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Kacper,
You had better get your ducks in a row on this yacht purchase. Is there something special about it such as inlaid gold or ivory? NADA which I consider only one source has this vessel value listed at $24,600 and what have you offered? Hopefully your offer is contingent on financing and the bank will put a stop to this madness. I have been trying BUC for a second value quote but for some reason it's down at the moment. This is a 1983 32' Bayfield, correct?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

TB....where's my photo in your living room???

Thanks SD that was a nice photo..Can you post it smaller, please??

I like the boom    reminds me of something


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> My fault... have a big screen monitor and some other people are jealous...


...well I guess it's possible that some folks might be a wee bit envious, but they probably console themselves with the knowledge that the money that would have been wasted on a monitor is being spent properly on new hoses and fuel filters for a really great boat 

RickBowman - the jury has already reached the verdict that the price is not exorbitant...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Work paid for the big screen monitor... and working gets me the $$ to work on the boat.


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

RickBowman said:


> Kacper,
> You had better get your ducks in a row on this yacht purchase. Is there something special about it such as inlaid gold or ivory? NADA which I consider only one source has this vessel value listed at $24,600 and what have you offered? Hopefully your offer is contingent on financing and the bank will put a stop to this madness. I have been trying BUC for a second value quote but for some reason it's down at the moment. This is a 1983 32' Bayfield, correct?


Yes. It's a 1983 32' Cutter Rig.

Here is a list of literally brand new equipment on board.

The sails are the most attractive part, they are barely used... Hard as a... hmm, won't use a comparison in case children are reading.

1. New Headsail
2. New Staysail
3. New Main
4. New Windlass 
5. New "quite beefy" Harken traveller
6. New Yanmar Diesel
7. New Roller furling systems on both headsails
8. 2 New Harken genoa winches
9. 1 New Main sheet winch.
10. New marine stove

I am going to replace the Auto Pilot with an "over powered" one for blue water cruising, so I dont put that in there. But I think some of these things do add up, and I will be needing and relying on them heavily out there  And will save the time and enery of buying and installing it all.

Let me know what you think


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

There have been 2 other posts, one from an owner of a Bayfield in this thread that point out a price issue with this 1983 32' Bayfield. I am not a marine surveyor, but I have purchased and sold vessels and I use Price Guides religiously. Huntches and opinions from unknown sources may be unreliable but a Price Guide; NADA and BUC to name a couple are part of a systematic approach to a vessels value. It appears that the price has been adjusted based on hope, the hope to sell it for as much as possible. Being on the market for two years could raise additional questions.

Sailormann wrote "RickBowman - the jury has already reached the verdict that the price is not exorbitant..."

Sailorman, what type of cost approach did this jury use for this vessel? One based on big screen tv's?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Sailorman, what type of cost approach did this jury use for this vessel? One based on big screen tv's?


 Well - let's start with location - the gentleman is in Vancouver - a popular area for sailing but not blessed with the multitude of boats for sale that some more populous regions are. There are a few Bayfields on the market there, 3 listings that I can find. Of these, one needs an awlgrip job (badly), has original upholstery, a lot of poorly executed owner modifications, and an engine enclosure made of residential grade, unsealed plywood...not an option. The next boat, with an asking price of about 14K less than Kacper's boat looks to be in decent condition, however does not offer the new equipment that his does...the gear that he has listed there would cost a minimum of $22,000.00 to buy, and lets say another $3,000.00 to have installed.

Now - it's a used boat so let's discount that by 33% to be realistic, but that still leaves us with $15,000.00 in good stuff.

If Kacper were to venture south for his Bayfield, he could purchase one in Washington state, and then import it, with associated headaches, costs and delays. The transportation is going be about $2,500.00, the cradle will run him another $2,000.00 and his legal and bokerage charges are going to be another $1,000.00. And he is still not going have new sails or engine. If he wants those it is going to cost him another $15,000.00. No savings - more effort.

Now - let's consider the NADA/BUC listing of values.

I am not sure where those thiings come from, but I will tell you that they bear absolutely no relation to the market prices of boats in Canada. Having just gone through a pretty extensive search for a new boat here, the boats that you get for the money they say you should be paying, are floating pieces of refuse (and some don't even float that well). According to BUC - I should have paid aout 21K less for my boat than I did, and I got a really good deal.

You can obtain a less optimistic, but still low approximation of the cost of a good used boat in Ontario from this site here:

Bayfield 32 - Used Sailboat Market in Canada

and from here:

boat for sale-classifieds

Now if you are outside of the Greater Toronto Area, as Kacper is, you need to add between 10 and 20 percent to the price, due to the lack of available inventory.

Boat financing in Canada is done primarily by one of our big 5 banks. There is a huge book that is published each year that lists the acceptable ranges of prices payable for used boats, that the banks use as a guide, along with surveyor's valuations. NADA/BUC are just not accurate in our fair land.

Hope this helps !


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Don't forget that the NADA/BUC prices are in USD... not in CDN... and that if you forget to convert the CDN into USD... you're talking apples but measuring oranges.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I've always been told that the NADA values for boats were wildly off base except for really high volume production boats and that the BUC guides were much more accurate but have similar problems as well for low production volume boats. Any thoughts from experienced brokers/surveyors on this?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Given that you have to have sales of a particular boat to base the prices one, it would make sense that the used pricing guides were far less accurate on low-volume boats, and more accurate on high-volume boats. _It is hard to figure out what the market value of a boat is, if no one has sold one of that model in five years. _


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> _It is hard to figure out what the market value of a boat is, if no one has sold one of that model in five years. _


The "Used Boat Markerplace in Canada" site is useful to contrast and compare, but the selling ranges are over five years old and are no longer applicable. Some boats hold value, but anything under 30 feet and over 30 years is practically a steal these days. If you don't mind a bit of glassing and tabbing, you can get a decent but worn boat quite cheaply and just fix in over a couple of weeks to "seaworthy" and work out the cosmetics later. I have seen many boats where a lot of engine work was done, leaks stopped and topsides painted, but they can't or won't deal with glasswork, which if not done drops the value of the boat hugely and if done (and it's not difficult, just messy) can restore the boat's integrity to new or even better than new.


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

This subject is rife with variables; too many for anyone, except the buyer to come to terms with. Sailormann's analysis is very good but for the importation costs. This is an area where only an expert can be relied upon. i.e. the boat was built before GST and exported, therefore NO FST was paid. Somebody has to make up the difference.
As a resident of Canada and maintaining a boat in Annapolis, I see huge differences in costs pertaining to the item in hand, but one has to sort out these items one-by-one. IMO there is no big brush strokes to cover all the bases.
Another situation: my neighbour imported a used 505 from England and fully landed in Canada cost as much as a used C&C 30' in Annapolis. However, he didn't want a 30'er, he bought what he wanted. DSFDF.


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## DCS (Apr 9, 2007)

*Bayfield 32*

If you've purchased the boat, good luck - you will enjoy it. If not... you should seriously reconsider based on price. I have a Bayfield 32 and am pretty familiar with the boat. The asking price seems incredibly high. That price is close to the price of a relatively decent shape Bayfield 36 of the same age.

Also, some other considerations before you head out. While the Bayfield 32 has alot of classic look, it is really a coastal boat and not a blue water boat. Specifically, it has a very shallow draft, extreme beam and relatively light ballast compared to comparable blue water boats of that size (e.g., Pacific Seacraft, HR or Cape Dory). The good news is that it has a fair amount of room inside and, with the shallow draft, can get some great anchorages. The bad news is that these same features mean that: 1) it will be very difficult to hove-to if needed; 2) will be very difficult to sail off a lee shore in heavy wind; 3) will not take a breaking wave to beam over 5 to 6 feet in height; and 4) may not recover from a knockdown. Also, the prominent bow results in alot of windage and is easily pushed by wave action - making it difficult to tack in heavy winds.

I am talking about heavy weather here, not careful coastal sailing. Overall, I have had a great time with the boat. And I have been out in 35 knots, steady without breaking seas, without a problem. And it handled great in a squall last summer with gusts up to about 50 knots. But I would be wary to go blue water sailing in it. But you can go almost anywhere coastally.

Just some things to think about if you plan on getting out beyond a few days weather window. If you really like the look and feel of a Bayfield, you might consider shopping around for a 36.

Good luck and have fun.


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

Hey guys,

We still dont own it yet  The surveys are going to happen the last week of this month.

I forgot and left out a VERY important detail to this boat's value.

...

The boat has been in dry dock for 50% of its life-span. Every winter (which is like 6 months here. I don't know if I can take that claim seriously, but, she does look like its true.

Kacper


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

DCS said:


> If you've purchased the boat, good luck - you will enjoy it. If not... you should seriously reconsider based on price. I have a Bayfield 32 and am pretty familiar with the boat. The asking price seems incredibly high. That price is close to the price of a relatively decent shape Bayfield 36 of the same age.
> 
> Also, some other considerations before you head out. While the Bayfield 32 has alot of classic look, it is really a coastal boat and not a blue water boat. Specifically, it has a very shallow draft, extreme beam and relatively light ballast compared to comparable blue water boats of that size (e.g., Pacific Seacraft, HR or Cape Dory). The good news is that it has a fair amount of room inside and, with the shallow draft, can get some great anchorages. The bad news is that these same features mean that: 1) it will be very difficult to hove-to if needed; 2) will be very difficult to sail off a lee shore in heavy wind; 3) will not take a breaking wave to beam over 5 to 6 feet in height; and 4) may not recover from a knockdown. Also, the prominent bow results in alot of windage and is easily pushed by wave action - making it difficult to tack in heavy winds.
> 
> ...


 Hey DCS

Have you been blue water sailing in it yet?

Lots of people take this boat offshore and I've heard great things about its performance and sturdiness. Your claims seem to be the complete opposite.

If you haven't ventured offshore, how do you know?


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

A friend sailed from Sydney to Halifax (NS) in a flotilla. They got beat up bad. According to him EVERY boat, but the Bayfield 32, suffered damage. Anecdotal? Yes. But so are all the other comments.


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## DCS (Apr 9, 2007)

*Bayfield 32*

As an owner of a Bayfield 32, I am glad to hear it. Just giving my opinion based on familiarity with the boat and experience - not blue water - limited to within about 80 miles offshore, North Atlantic.

Just suggest that you make some comparisons if you are seriously considering blue water sailing. Examples:

Pacific Seacraft Bayfield 32
Orion 31' Mariah
LOA: 27' 31'10" 31 32
Displacement: 10,000lbs 11,000 16,000 9,000
Ballast: 3,500lbs 4,700 6,000 to 8,000 4,000
Beam: 9'3 9'10" 10'8" 10'6" 
LWL: 22'2" 24'2" 25' 23'3" 
Draft: 4' 4'11" 4'11" 3'9"


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Well - here we are - Kacper is all excited because he found a boat that he really likes, wants to buy it, and comes to share the news and what does he get ? A bunch of bitter old fogies thousands of miles away telling him "I wouldn't buy that boat for that money", none of whom have seen the boat in question, or have determined exactly how Kacper plans to use it...

There are indeed cheaper boats out there, there are better sea boats, there are faster boats, there are newer boats, but Kacper has decided he wants this one.

I think something along the lines of "Congratulations - let us know if you have any questions regarding sailing or maintenance or sourcing parts" might be a bit more appropriate - don't you ?????


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Right on Sailormann.

The regional differences in boat prices and markets, the rarity of one model over the other, the equipment involved all go to the ultimate selling price... In the end, all boats are worth whatever someone else is willing to pay.

I'm sure that those posting cautions, however, are doing so trying to prevent a relative newcomer from making what they may feel is a mistake.

If all goes well in survey, then Kacper has a boat he really loves, very little work to do after the fact, and the PO gets properly rewarded for doing a banner job of maintenance and upgrading.

The agreed price is definitely on the high end of the scale, but if Kacper is right, this example may justify the bulk of it. And if his deal is in any way indicative of our market here, then our boat is worth more than I thought! <G><G>

So, yeah, Congrats Kacper and good luck at Survey.


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## soul searcher (Jun 28, 2006)

I just wanna see the" Kacper pimps his ride video" 

The man just went through this not to long ago and it didn't pan out.

Nearly new engine and sails, garage kept only sailed to the mail bouy.
I say good on ya Kacper. I hope you get it and it's every thing you hoped it would be. 
Give him a little credit


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

There's a Bayfield 32C behind me at my marina. A very beautiful boat, IMO. There are a few for sale in this area and the asking price is in the ballpark that Kacper is looking at.

They're really a 30 foot boat and the first year they came out, they were called Bayfield 30's. US dealers wanted to include the bowsprit and trail boards in the overall measurement and so everything after 1973 became a Bayfield 32.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Congratulations, Capt. Kacper...fair winds and fine weather.


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## Kernix (Oct 5, 2006)

Well this thread started one week ago and there are 11 pages to it - I'm not going to read them all but I did see someone else mention what I was thinking - a Catalina 27 for $8k and then this 32' for $69K - what is so special about this boat - somehow a better "blue water" boat then say a Catalina 30 for $20-25K same age? What is it that this newbie does not understand. It does not to be faster than a Catalina 30, though it does look nicer and sleeker. I'd never concern myself with "looks" but would prefer performance, speed and space below deck.

What am I missing?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Kernix-

It depends on what you are looking for in a boat. The Bayfield 32 is much more a traditional looking boat... and he loves the look and lines of her. While I don't think that a Bayfield 32 is all that much more seaworthy, in terms of a bluewater passagemaker, it certainly can be said to have a very different look, and much more distinctive look, than a Catalina 30.

The truth is that when it comes to boats, most boats aren't bought all that rationally, in spite of all the things people say. Often, they are bought because something about them just appeals to the buyer...whether it is the lines, the way she sails, or something else.

Ultimately, when it comes to boats, I like to paraphrase Capt. Malcolm Reynolds...

"_Love_. You can know all the math in the 'Verse, but take a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of worlds. Love keeps her floating when she oughta sink, tells ya she's hurtin' 'fore she keens. Makes her home."

I don't think you should own a boat you don't love. A loved boat will sail better, be taken care of better, and be sailed more often than a boat you don't love. *Isn't sailing the boat what it is all about after all, so why get one you won't enjoy sailing?*


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Kernix said:


> I'd never concern myself with "looks" .


I will respectfully have to disagree.
Lines and looks make make up a big part of the boats personality.


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## Kernix (Oct 5, 2006)

Kacper said:


> Yes. It's a 1983 32' Cutter Rig.
> 
> Here is a list of literally brand new equipment on board.
> 
> ...


I think you should do just that - go get prices and add it up - subtract all that from the asking price and then see if it's such a sweet deal or not.


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## Kernix (Oct 5, 2006)

to sailingdog and sailotjk1:

I'll have to take your word on it - I've never sailed or owned a boat - going on my first 2-day trip in 3 weeks, so I'm obviously talking as a clueless newbie - but I am looking long range (+ or - 4 yrs) to when I can buy my first boat - do I spend 5-$8K for a Pearson 26, or &15-20K for a Catalina 30, etc. Thinking about it - getting a boat, sailing her is of most importance - and I can't see how I'd hate my first boat or feel that the lines are "pretty" enough - it's kind of like a mutt vs a show dog - can't mangy old muttbe just as faithful a companion as a show dog with a bow on its head - if not even better since a stray mutt once showed love would give it back ten fold out of gratitude for the chance - I just don't see why I would put more concern to the lines over functionality - I would be concerned with lines\design that causes bumbed heads or difficulty in a certain process or whatever - but looks, no.

And to address dog's Reynold's quote since I included the mutt reference - I would not buy a boat that no one would comment positively on - I mean there are sailor's who haved owned the boats I mentioned - maybe their first, or 2nd or even third boats. If someone else sailed a Pearson 26 or Catalina 30 and said, "yes that is a good boat - had one once...." - then that's enough for me and how could I not love my first boat?

Now if I hit the lottery, then I'm getting a really big 2007 boat with 'da works!


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

You cannot get a new boat of the size and class, as the Bayfield 32 for the price, if this boat is as good if not better than new given the extras it may well be a good buy.

Let us know what the surveyor says.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Sailormann said:


> Well - here we are - Kacper is all excited because he found a boat that he really likes, wants to buy it, and comes to share the news and what does he get ? A bunch of bitter old fogies thousands of miles away telling him "I wouldn't buy that boat for that money", none of whom have seen the boat in question, or have determined exactly how Kacper plans to use it...
> 
> There are indeed cheaper boats out there, there are better sea boats, there are faster boats, there are newer boats, but Kacper has decided he wants this one.
> 
> I think something along the lines of "Congratulations - let us know if you have any questions regarding sailing or maintenance or sourcing parts" might be a bit more appropriate - don't you ?????


Kacper,

One other quote that finally came from BUC finds the vessel that you are considering average value to be $28,700-$31,900.

But as posted, I am just a "bitter old fogie thousands of miles away" so why be concerned about the price? The bank won't care about the price. The insurance company won't care about the price. The surveyor could care less about the price. Why should any of us question a price about a vessel that is being looked at seriously by I believe was posted as a first time boat buyer? 
Now, where is my warm bottle of water, cookies, rocker and slippers?
Rick
s/v JudyAnn
PS32 PH 020


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## welshwind (Feb 27, 2005)

Looks good. Hope it surveys as well.


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## mike dryver (May 13, 2006)

kacper you wrote awhile ago between all the other stuff that there were a couple of things you had to take care of after the sale. the bottom paint i think and some thinfg about the finish in the interior. if you feel the price is fair for what you are getting demand that those things are taken care of. no exceptions. the brokers/ yacht sales people/company is trying/ making sure theey make their money back on the trade value or what they orig. figured they needed to get for the boat to come out ahead. tell them the deal will hinge on them refinishing/touchoing up the interior, and clean and paint the bottom i would also demand that the hull and topsides be b uffed and waxed before you sign any paper work. there is no reason they can't do this it as part of the deal. you are paying a huge amount of money and you should be able to get these thrown in.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

SD - ya need to look at a Bayfield up close to appreciate the way they are built, very strong hulls and decent joinery. Lots of room and very comfy.

Kernix - a Bayfield and a Catalina are two different categories of boat. Just as with automobiles, there are varying levels of quality and performance, actually in boats the differences are even more pronounced than in cars. But just as with cars, you get what you pay for.

RickBowman - I'm not sure where you are located but I am assuming it is somewhere in the US. Up here - our market is a bit different. The economy is very strong right now - unemployment is at a 35 year low, and Kacper lives in a very rich part of the country. (Check out mls.ca - Welcome to mls.ca and look at the price of a basic little house.) There is no shortage of money out there and people are willing to spend it.

I got the shock of my life when I started shopping for a boat this January. Unless you are prepared to go up to 135K (Cdn) the only things you can get new are small Hunters or Catalinas, or very small Precisions or Com Pacs.

I looked at a lot of boats, researched like crazy, and dealt with 11 different brokers. I finally realised that the used market has basically split into two sectors. The good, well-maintained boats, and the wrecks.

Five years ago - when I was last looking, the differences between the boats were not as great, but the ones that have not been mantained (and which outnumber the good ones by about 10 to 1) have deteriorated a lot over that period, and the ones that had good owners have been upgraded and refit considerably. You really can't go by a model or a year - value varies wildly from boat to boat.

The lack of new product between 50 and 100K has created a market for the refit boats, and this is making the bad ones harder to sell. Also, the prices of the good boats are climbing faster than inflation, and the boats are not on the market long. So while the bulk of boats are sitting for a long time - because they are worthless - the good ones are gone in a couple of weeks.

Hence - it is very difficult to look at a boat value guide and say that it is applicable to any specific boat. I would compare the price of Kacper's Bayfield to a similarly constructed new boat, and then depreciate it, rather than equate it with sisterships that have not been freshened up. As I have mentioned earlier, Bayfield produced a very strong hull and there is no reason to believe that these boats won't have the same longevity as Albergs or Cape Dory's, to name a couple of examples.

Now, enjoy your water and your rocking chair but I am not sure if you should be going at those cookies at your age


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sailormann-

I never said I didn't like the Bayfield...

BTW, the cookies are probably these:


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Kernix said:


> And to address dog's Reynold's quote since I included the mutt reference - I would not buy a boat that no one would comment positively on - I mean there are sailor's who haved owned the boats I mentioned - maybe their first, or 2nd or even third boats. If someone else sailed a Pearson 26 or Catalina 30 and said, "yes that is a good boat - had one once...." - then that's enough for me and how could I not love my first boat?


There's very few "bad" boats, but just as a Chrysler 300 and a Mercedes sedan are about the same size...but wildly different in price...there are qualities that are more obvious, and others that are less tangible, but no less important to the prospective owner.

The Catalina 30 of the mid-80s hit a number of "sweet spots" of quality, performance, roominess and was good for partying at dock and not embarrassing itself on the club race nights. Its build quality is good, not great; its design good, not great, but as a club cruiser/racer and near coastal weekender, it obviously was hard to beat...I think they are in the top three of popular designs. Same with the C&C 27...there are hundreds around here, some still very competitive and raced often.

But I could go through a Catalina 30 and show exactly why and where the qualities that make it near-ideal for a starter cruiser make it a poor choice for a passagemaker...that huge companionway gives me the creeps, for one, despite the fact that you can snuggle a mate in it... the Bayfield 32, by contrast, fits more closely the OP's idea of what kind of vessel he wants to sail for the sailing he envisions doing.

Can that be priced in dollars? Obviously, yes, or brokers would starve. But to compare some boats to others on the basis of size is never going to work, because they meet entirely different purposes. A scalpel is a small knife, near useless in a fight, just as a sword has little call in the operating room...but you'd pay a lot to have one or the other when you needed them!


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

Hey guys,

lol, this thread has caused quite a difference in opinion 

Anyway, the survey and sea trial happens on the 24th, 2 weeks from now.

Just went to see the boat again, too bad I didn't bring my camcorder, I could have made you guys a video and put it on YouTube

The boat really looks "brand new" as far as interior and gear goes. All the lines and sheets are new, the teak inside is damn well taken care of. The sails are stiff, brand new, the new drum winches are nice. The traveller rail-lift was also custom made for the previos owner.

To save some of the confusion, let me re-state what we are currently "paying" for the boat, in US dollars... for all you guys down south.. 

1. 62,000 USD

So if the boat is really worth just $30,000, it means I'm paying $30,000 more than I should be.

Consider the amount of new gear is about $20,000. That still leaves me with something like 12K overpaying. 

We'll see how it goes. I will definitely bargain more.

Will be hard to talk myself out of it though, I already stood on the bowsprit for half an hour and imagined riding the Ocean swells as we near Mazatlan port in Mexico


Kacper


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## Kernix (Oct 5, 2006)

Valiente said:


> There's very few "bad" boats, but just as a Chrysler 300 and a Mercedes sedan are about the same size...but wildly different in price...there are qualities that are more obvious, and others that are less tangible, but no less important to the prospective owner.
> 
> The Catalina 30 of the mid-80s hit a number of "sweet spots" of quality, performance, roominess and was good for partying at dock and not embarrassing itself on the club race nights. Its build quality is good, not great; its design good, not great, but as a club cruiser/racer and near coastal weekender, it obviously was hard to beat...I think they are in the top three of popular designs. Same with the C&C 27...there are hundreds around here, some still very competitive and raced often.
> 
> ...


Got it - like I said I'm a newbie and I don't tend to think about designs for coastal cruising vs blue water passages vs racing, etc. I'll admit that boat looks purty - I'm HOPING to be able to afford a Catalina 30 in less than 5 years, and a Pearson 26 or something comparable in 1-2 years. So for big time cruining or racing - that's not a consideration of mine and must have missed where the OP is looking for those qualities.


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## Kernix (Oct 5, 2006)

Kacper said:


> To save some of the confusion, let me re-state what we are currently "paying" for the boat, in US dollars... for all you guys down south..
> 
> 1. 62,000 USD
> 
> ...


kacper,

if you have the $'s and it's ready to sail - than awesome, but can you ask the surveyor if there is any work that needs to be done, if so how much it will cost, then ask his opinion on a reasonable price?


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Kernix said:


> So for big time cruining or racing - that's not a consideration of mine and must have missed where the OP is looking for those qualities.


What IS a consideration of yours? I mean, it's fine not to know at this point (and club racing as crew and crewing for elderly couples who cruise are very good ways to determine what you like).

I can think off the top of my head of six or so main uses for boats, and the best answer for each use is an entirely different boat. Let's review for boats in the 30-35 foot range, just for laughs. I'm going to skew Great Lakes models because that's what I'm familiar with, but let's assume you are in salt water:

1) Entertaining at dock/the boat as weekend cottage: Hunter 33
2) Club racing: J/105, Mumm 30.
3) Club racing with cruising: C&C 33 or 35, Catalina 30 or 34, CS 33.
4) Cruising coastal: Pacific Seacraft 34, Finn 34
5) Liveaboard: Irrelevant as long as it has ridiculously overkill ground tackle and 15 SolarStiks and plenty of closet space and a diesel furnace and built-in bar and stowable galley slave.
6) Passagemaking/offshore: Nauticat 331, Contessa 32, Wetsnail 32, most anything the Dutch have built in steel for offshore.

I left out the Caribbean, which means I left out Jeanneau, Beneteau, Dufour, etc., etc., plus the catamarans/tris, etc. The fairly unique requirement for "lots of stuff" plus shallow draft that makes a perfect Caribbean boat sometimes makes for an inappropriate boat elsewhere where the focus isn't so much on a floating party platform or a buoyant hammock and Grisham-novel support system.

There's NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, in my considered opinion, if that's what you want to do, by the way. But a lot of people buy a cramped, pokey, heavily built offshore boat that they find dark and narrow for casual use, and a lot of others try to take a light displacement "performance cruiser" into situations they find challenging and uncomfortable. Both parties have probably made the wrong choices.

In the loose list above, you'll find boats from $10,000 semi-wrecks to $100,000 teak museums: the Bayfield 32 is in no way the most expensive in its size range...but all those boats were designed to appeal to different sailors, and are less "apples and oranges" comparisons than "apples and fishsticks": both edible and organic, but the commonalities end there.


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## Kernix (Oct 5, 2006)

Put it this way - If I continue to work in the corporate world I'm going to go postal and land in jail - jk - but the corp world will kill me - it already is: I'm not happy, Blood Pressure is on the rise, I'm partying more which equates to less gym time and poorer overall health, etc. - and I'm not writing songs\playing music or photographing which are 2 or my loves.

So - NO MATTER HOW LONG IT TAKES - I'm going to save money, cut expenses, invest more, get a part-time job...all so I can get rid of all debts and buy a live-aboard boat - I've already slimmed down my possessions (I just moved and gave \ threw stuff away - to make money: either via photog up & down the east coast &\or internet design or programming.

I need to make a career change - and if that means living on the hook, working more hours to make ends meet, etc. then so be it - I'd rather be busting my hump doing programming or humping it along the coast to get quality pics - all while outdoors on a boat - than to spend the rest of my days in a closed up cublicle working with peeps who have ABSOLUTELY no problem being two-faced, a$s-kissing, stealing other peeps ideas, etc - man, didn't realize that so many people lacked integrity and the ability to reflect upon ones own life and actions - I wish I was dumb - ignorance is bliss.

So that's where I'm at. I've been in the corp world for ~ 12+ years, I'm 40 yo and I believe I can save for a small 1st boat (hopefully 30') and start a small biz within 4-6 yrs.


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

>>In the loose list above, you'll find boats from $10,000 semi-wrecks to $100,000 teak museums:<<
Valiente - I WISH in my Wildest Dreams - I could have bought my Teak Museum for only 100k  Actually I bought it more for a Teak Museum, Live Aboard, and Coastal Cruiser than the 'offshore boat' some - Not I - consider it to be. As many have said in this thread and others it's the boat that you WANT that is the one you NEED. The offshore mistakes that cost lives, and the taxpayers money, though Very Well Publisized, are few and far between. I'd say most end up as... Oh crap.....  this aint gonna to work !!!!


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

> I WISH in my Wildest Dreams - I could have bought my Teak Museum for only 100k


Isn't that the truth? Even a 21 year old NC33 is currently listed for over 100k, and that's for a short rig model.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Kernix said:


> Put it this way - If I continue to work in the corporate world I'm going to go postal and land in jail - jk - but the corp world will kill me - it already is: I'm not happy, Blood Pressure is on the rise, I'm partying more which equates to less gym time and poorer overall health, etc. - and I'm not writing songs\playing music or photographing which are 2 or my loves.
> 
> So - NO MATTER HOW LONG IT TAKES - I'm going to save money, cut expenses, invest more, get a part-time job...all so I can get rid of all debts and buy a live-aboard boat - I've already slimmed down my possessions (I just moved and gave \ threw stuff away - to make money: either via photog up & down the east coast &\or internet design or programming.
> 
> ...


Kernix,

We just had a peep "as you would say" here in Michigan that decided to spend the rest of his natural life with social malcontents. He strolled into his office in Troy and shot the place up, along with 1 human life and two more dangling on the edge. We saw the parade monday on I-75 with him in the lead with numerous patrol cars following, but we not knowing what had gone down and driving in the opposite direction were dumb with bliss. <g>

I'm not one to live aboard full time as my mate would have nothing to do with that, but in the warmer months we are the Blighs of the fresh water. I can't hardly wait to splash the keel this spring and inspect the wonders of the deep.

Sorry for the deviation on the topic, now back to it.

Kacper,

Don't let that salesman play you like a Stradivarius . If an engine has been replaced and cost 10K it does not mean that the vessel is now worth 10K more. What it means is that the boat should sell quicker. If the sails are new it means that worn out sails will not have to be subtracted from the average value of the vessel. It really is an average that I look for when listing, and I mean an actual check off list, like the surveyors use to determine average vessel condition. Brand new equipment will be offset by hull blistering which in a vesseel of that age should be carefully inspected for in the hull, rudder and deck. I would be surprised if there aren't water problems somewhere. There is a reason why this vessel hasn't sold in 2 years which will be part of your due diligence to figure out why. Don't rely totally on the surveyor, as they make mistakes, omissions, and have good and bad days like the rest of us. After the surveyor is gone you will be the one that is making the payments and repairs so know exactly what you are purchasing. This is not the time to assume. As Regan said of the Ruskies, "trust but verify."
Most dealers that I have met can be sumed in 8 words....."if their lips are moving, they are lying."

Ok, great, as sailormann suggested, it's back to the hotwater bottle and private nurse. Ahhhh.


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

Kernix, go for it. One can never go to soon to his desires. As pointed out, going "postal" is not the same as going sailing.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

christyleigh said:


> Valiente - I WISH in my Wildest Dreams - I could have bought my Teak Museum for only 100k


OK, there are some exceptions...it was a broad generalization to illustrate a point.

But it's not like you regret the purchase, right? Because avoiding regrets after a certain point is not only the main thing, it's the _only _thing.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Well Kacper - we're all waiting for that survey - can't you hurry things along a bit ????


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

Valiente said:


> OK, there are some exceptions...it was a broad generalization to illustrate a point.
> 
> But it's not like you regret the purchase, right? Because avoiding regrets after a certain point is not only the main thing, it's the _only _thing.


 I'll clutter up this thread with more of my details just because getting the boat you really want is a big part of the 'Holy Cow' theme. 'Exceptions' and 'No Regrets' were key to my whole purchase. Looking for and finding a fairly new model Nauticat is an exception in itself and that is why I broke a few cardinal rules of boat buying such as not getting a separate engine survey, using the brokers surveyor, and only bidding 5% below the asking price. My only reasonable excuse was timeing and distance. I have never even heard of another NC 331 in this country and in the 2 years since I started looking only a couple have been offered in Europe for at least $50k More than I paid + plus shipping. To re-enforce the No Regrets issue to myself I enrolled in Yachtwords 'Personal Shopper' e-mailings a year ago and coincidentally this weeks (rare) offering was a 2000 NC 331 (mine is a 1999) in England for $85k More than mine was listed at a year and a half ago. I realize this is mostly exceptional trivia to most purchases but my only attempt at a point is - sometime ya just gotta Do It


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## Kernix (Oct 5, 2006)

tigerregis said:


> Kernix, go for it. One can never go to soon to his desires. As pointed out, going "postal" is not the same as going sailing.


I wouldn't actaually go postal but I needed that reference to make my point of my desire for a career change as well as an overall change - it's just a matter of time b4 I make it happen - thanks!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Oh, sure. Part of the pleasure of knowing what you want is that your dithering is over. Part of the problem is knowing that your choice is rarefied and "fully valued".

This is why I have a steel pilothouse instead of a Shearwater 45. They are about the most appealing boats I've ever seen, and fast and seaworthy as well, but they only make a dozen a year or so, and there's 100 guys with exactly my same opinion of them, keeping even the used ones above $400K.

I could buy a new Saga 43 if I had that kind of money. But then I'd have nothing left over for diesel!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Kernix said:


> I wouldn't actaually go postal but I needed that reference to make my point of my desire for a career change as well as an overall change - it's just a matter of time b4 I make it happen - thanks!


I encourage you to become seasoned crew (say five years of club racing on three different types of boat in all positions). Not only is that the golden road to learning to sail in all conditions (because racers will race in appalling slop as long as it's under 25 knots), but it shows you the pluses and minuses of various designs and the hazards and shortcuts associated with various positions.

I am only in my eighth year of boat ownership, and I raced for the first five. Without a doubt, I learned a huge amount about boat handling and basic seamanship, far beyond what the average cruiser is able to learn solo (unless they are very motivated/curious). Just grow a thick skin and do a lot of 15 kilo free weight "flys", which are the grinder's preferred exercise!


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## Kacper (Oct 24, 2006)

*solo business*



> Kernix Wrote...
> 
> So that's where I'm at. I've been in the corp world for ~ 12+ years, I'm 40 yo and I believe I can save for a small 1st boat (hopefully 30') and start a small biz within 4-6 yrs.


??????!!!!!!

Why wait?

Four to Six years!? Come on man, aim higher, start next week. It takes $300 to start an online business and 1 hour a day, i'm sure you can find that time if you cut your toothbrushing in half, eat your breakfast quicker, and skip a few needless activities like partying.

I'm only 22 years old, I own my own business, and this is my first boat. I hate the rat race just as much as you do, hence why I never got a job after high school, but went down the entrepreneurial path.

Kacper


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## Kernix (Oct 5, 2006)

4-6 yrs to pay off some dept and buy a 30 footer. 

I have no idea about starting an oline biz - where would I learn about that?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Valiente said:


> Oh, sure. Part of the pleasure of knowing what you want is that your dithering is over. Part of the problem is knowing that your choice is rarefied and "fully valued".
> 
> This is why I have a steel pilothouse instead of a Shearwater 45. They are about the most appealing boats I've ever seen, and fast and seaworthy as well, but they only make a dozen a year or so, and there's 100 guys with exactly my same opinion of them, keeping even the used ones above $400K.
> 
> I could buy a new Saga 43 if I had that kind of money. But then I'd have nothing left over for diesel!


Which steel pilothouse do you sail? What are your likes/dislikes with a steel vessel? The reason that I enquire is that I had an oppurtunity on a steel pilothouse, well still do actually, but let my mate talk me out of it due to the owner messing up the interior so badly with great woodworking skills but poor design skills. In other words the vessel needs to be gutted and the interior mostly rebuilt. The wiring is to no known standard, even battery placement is somewhere between questionable to dangerous. It was designed for migets, or very small adults or children. It isn't just my opinion but also the marketplace as the vessel has been for sale for 4 years starting at 149,000 and now is at 87,000 sitting inside. I offered 59,000 and was flatly rejected without a counter offer. I bought a PS Pilothouse instead. I still think it would be fun to gut it and redo it to ABYC standards with proper layout and design.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

RickBowman said:


> Which steel pilothouse do you sail?


It's a custom-designed and built 41 footer. It bears a superficial kinship to a bigger sort of Nauticat, but at 24,000 lbs. light load, it's not a particularly heavy steel boat. It was designed by Phil Freidman, who now runs Port Royal Group, Florida-based megayacht builders. He has Hull No. 2, which is a canoe stern version instead of my transom stern. Here's a couple of the drawings:

















_What are your likes/dislikes with a steel vessel? _

I like the toughness and sheer durability, and I like the different motion in a seaway. I like the fact that the deck is very clean, cambered and that I have pipe "lifelines". I like the fact that I can learn to weld at a basic level, and can make alterations to the boat. I like the fact that there are 11 5/16th inch stays holding up a 6 x 9 inch by 45 foot mast. The boat feels extremely safe, and as we are planning to be independent and offshore with a child, I wanted a "get us home" boat more than a "get us there", if that makes sense. I like the fact that my tankage and stowage is extremely generous for a 41 footer.

I _really_ like the watertight bulkheads. There are three.

I don't dislike, by contrast, the fact that I've lost a bit of speed compared to a GRP boat, nor do I cringe at the regular round of painting and scraping that comes with the turf. I have some jobs to complete, such as putting in some sort of shower, the completion of a forepeak workshop, the installation of a sealable access hatch (so I can get into the workshop without going on deck) and the construction of an arch/bimini to carry wind, solar and comm gear.

Other things I don't so much dislike as wish to improve. Like a lot of custom boats, they are always in a state of "90% done and 10% undone", and I wish not so much to get rid of previous owner stuff as put in systems and things that never got done, like a manual bilge pump (a huge Patay, bought but never installed), and Whale foot pumps so I don't have to use the Flojet so much. I want a boat with the option to run on a fairly low draw, but I'm no Luddite.

_The reason that I enquire is that I had an oppurtunity on a steel pilothouse, well still do actually, but let my mate talk me out of it due to the owner messing up the interior so badly with great woodworking skills but poor design skills. In other words the vessel needs to be gutted and the interior mostly rebuilt. The wiring is to no known standard, even battery placement is somewhere between questionable to dangerous. It was designed for migets, or very small adults or children. It isn't just my opinion but also the marketplace as the vessel has been for sale for 4 years starting at 149,000 and now is at 87,000 sitting inside. I offered 59,000 and was flatly rejected without a counter offer. I bought a PS Pilothouse instead. I still think it would be fun to gut it and redo it to ABYC standards with proper layout and design.
_

What's a PS pilothouse? As for the steel pilothouse, the interior is essentially irrelevant if it's poorly built junk. It should be stripped to a bare hull, and not just because it's half-assed. If the design is sound and the construction was of a high standard (big ifs), then you would have to determine if the metal was prepped properly, coated properly and sprayed with some sort of barrier coat that has kept it rust-free, or mostly so, since it was built. Then you need to determine if the insulation was properly done and installed to the waterline. I do not like spray foam, and I've seen plenty. It hides rust and traps moisture. I prefer closed-cell foam panels to the waterline, and regular inspections.

It's said that there are thousands of Bruce Roberts designs built and in service, and of those maybe one in eight aren't amateurish crap that is rotting from the inside out. I was lucky to find a boat designed well and constructed with particular fastidiousness. It also has never seen salt water, which means I get to keep on top of the rust remedial work, which will accelerate when we go to sea. I was also lucky in that the previous owner (who had it for four years between the original guy and me) worked for a chandlery and used his "employee discount" to good effect. While the nav gear is pretty past it, the wiring, much of the plumbing and the galley is top-end. There's spots in the boat that are essentially empty, and that I can finish as I see fit.

If you want the sort of "fun" of finishing a steel boat, I would look for a welder who built to a decent plan, under cover, finished the hull, and promptly died or gave up. Then you have a free hand to work to those fairly exacting ABYC without gutting the thing, and you can ensure that the critical prepping and coatings on the bare metal were done to the highest standard. There are, of course, century-old steel yachts in Europe, and some heavily used tugs and ferries in North America are decades and decades old. But it takes initial effort and a low but ongoing commitment to maintenance to keep steel in play. The reward, of course, is immense strength and durability. Steel beats coral, after all, and they make ships out of it.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Valiente—

Good write up on your battleship..  Can you post a photo of her?


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Interesting to compare Valiente's sailplan with True Blue . . .


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Valiente said:


> What's a PS pilothouse?


It's a 1997 Pacific Seacraft 32' Pilothouse. Hull #20. There are images uploaded in the Pacific Seacraft forum here on sailnet.

I found all that you posted to be of unusual interest.



Valiente said:


> I do not like spray foam, and I've seen plenty. It hides rust and traps moisture. I prefer closed-cell foam panels to the waterline, and regular inspections.


I agree with you. The vessel that I originally posted earlier in this thread had been sprayed with foam and it didn't impresss me either. I like the interior layout of your vessel. How are you steering her? It appears to be a robust rudder design and reminds me of the NorSea. This is just a quick post to your excellent contribution here, as I need to run and get four brass gudgeon bolts before the bolt speciality store closes for the weekend. Pacific Seacraft used silicone-bronze bolts 4.25" x .375" x 18 going through a brass gudgeon and fiberglass skeg. One of the 4 bolts was about 25% gone, but the rest showed no signs of wasting which surprises me that they didin't.

"Glass is nice but steel is real"


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Valiente-
> 
> Good write up on your battleship..  Can you post a photo of her?


I've posted several before, so I might be repeating myself with this view from on the hard.









You can see that while she's got a full keel, the forefoot owes something to Brewer. The bit that doesn't resemble a Nauticat is the stern, which has a typical transom at about a 15 degree angle and a large transom-mounted rudder. The rudder is on a four-inch post and has holes top and bottom to vary the amount of water inside for balance.










Ignore the dirt and paint flakes...we are redoing the bottom before launch and that prop is being pulled in favour of a 19 x 15 four-bladed VariProp.

To answer the question about steering, there are two steering stations, one in the pilothouse and one on deck, both hydraulically connected to a Marol rotary actuator and ram in the aft cabin. There is no autopilot at present but I am looking at the ComNav Commander pilot with a 25 cu. in. drive, or a W-H pilot. I am leaning toward the Vector G2 satellite compass as a main course input, with my Raymarine 420 chartplotter (older but accurate) and KVH AC103 fluxgate (still older yet!) as backups. There's a Ritchie Globemaster with compensators at the helm. All compasses agree with each other, unless I leave a wrench near the Ritchie...

I will bypass this steering when on a windvane in favour of a tiller and block system. This gives me desired redundancy, a "power off" option and a perfectly good way to steer on passage. I will return to autopilot for motoring or in the relatively few points of sail in which a wine vane isn't ideal. I will hand steer from the pilothouse in heavy weather, unless it's so heavy that I have to lash on to the deck in order to see approaching wave trains.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

RickBowman said:


> It's a 1997 Pacific Seacraft 32' Pilothouse. Hull #20. There are images uploaded in the Pacific Seacraft forum here on sailnet.
> 
> I found all that you posted to be of unusual interest.
> 
> I agree with you. The vessel that I originally posted earlier in this thread had been sprayed with foam and it didn't impresss me either.


I will look up the PS 32. I have some photos of other steel boats I looked at and examples of why I didn't like foam.

Here's a French ketch in steel, a 1980 Subrero Petit Prince. Guy wanted $60K and it was at my club. Close to perfect in terms of design:









...but it had not been maintained where it counted, despite the beautiful interior:









I can't remember the make of this one, but it looked fast and the exterior showed fresh paint:









Again, unfortunately, the owner's own pictures told the story of how you need to keep on top of trouble areas. I sometimes wonder if just lining anchor lockers with truck bed liner isn't the best idea:









Here's how my new-to-me boat avoids the problem: 









Pardon the inflatable in the way, but it's the best shot I have. There is a forward sloping well in the deck into which the chain is flaked. The well has a drain above the waterline in the stem that means anchoring water never enters the boat. It's visible here, along with the triple rollers on the short, heavy bowsprit:









I have enough buoyancy forward to carry a few hundred pounds of chain easily, plus there's a safety bonus of stepping into a shallow box to work at the bow. The windlass has been bought, but has yet to be installed. It will be bolted to a bracket on the centerline of the well, and as chain is brought aboard, it will have to be manually flaked side to side. This is of course a compromise, but I accept it as it gives the benefit of being able to wash down the chain and inspect it in full daylight, plus I don't get muddy water in the forepeak, plus I can't have a tangle belowdecks...it's all there in front of me. I am thinking of lining this area in the aforementioned truck bed liner or something similar. I may also make a pair of clamshell-type covers just to tidy up that area.

Sorry for the size of this "photo essay", but I am a bit of a boat bore, having been immersed (no pun intended) in the subject for several years. I have seen about six steel cruisers in person, and about 20 via the magic of the Internet. I'm far from an expert, but you learn to look for certain things, and if you find them, you move on!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Valiente said:


> The well has a drain above the waterline in the stem that means anchoring water never enters the boat.
> Sorry for the size of this "photo essay", but I am a bit of a boat bore, having been immersed (no pun intended) in the subject for several years. I have seen about six steel cruisers in person, and about 20 via the magic of the Internet. I'm far from an expert, but you learn to look for certain things, and if you find them, you move on!


Well done indeed. Thank you for the informative images. I have always prefered the anchor locker drain to exit out and not to the bilge.

The size of the photo essay was great. Like with much, the devil is in the details, and the seams, welds and fillets and the images that you provided showed the corrosion and neglect on the vessels that you have inspected.

Now about your anchor locker liner? Are you thinking about how to stop the chiping of the paint from the chain striking the locker walls? Would you consider lexan attached to the anchor locker walls and bottom?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> Interesting to compare Valiente's sailplan with True Blue . . .


TB and Valiente...want to laugh??

Then compare both of yours sailplan with mine...and also the hull......just for curiosity!!

The first photo was the first drawing sent to me with an idea of how she would look like..made into a jpeg

The second one are the Hull lines..sorry about the quality.



















Interesting diofferences, aren't they?


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Interesting diofferences, aren't they?


Naturally, and if I was racing to the west of Portugal, I'd have your boat. But I wouldn't take it around Cape Horn or even into the average Pacific lagoon. I'd just knock something off the bottom.

Trust me, there's an excellent compromise between our boats, and it's nothing a couple of million dollars can't buy.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Valiente said:


> But I wouldn't take it around Cape Horn or even into the average Pacific lagoon. I'd just knock something off the bottom.


  me neither..  

In fact I wouldn't take her that much far from the coast...like crossing the Atalantic.....

It would be unconfortable...very....I believe...

The compromise between the two boats exists, yes it does...Nautor!!!!


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## gaha_1 (Mar 29, 2002)

*Great boat*

I can't wait for mine to grow up,I have a bayfield 25'


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