# Not Sure Wich Winch to use



## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

On Sundays sail my jib sheets kept cinching them self's to the winch?
I tried to put a snatch block on the toe rail to change the angle of
attack to the winch this did not seem to help? Any Ideas on the C&C 30
MK1 winch layout what winch is for what task? 
Thanks for your help


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

It looks like the winches on your coaming should work with your jibsheet lead without a turning block and without getting an override. The winches on the cabin top look like they should work with your spinnaker sheet without an extra turning block and without getting an override. 

Jeff


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

I had the Jib sheets to the rear most winches and thewere getting stuck ukeoverlapping on the drum?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Looks like your boat was set up for single handing and or racing. you have jib tracks, self tailing winches, rope clutches and more! 
Harken's site may be some help,


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)




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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

jib tracks not sure how to put thisinto play? Snatch block or just a pully? will this keep the winches from getting stuck? the bottom is cenching onto its self?
will the Rigging - Sheeting Angle cause the winch to faule?


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

The winches on the cockpit coaming are called sheet winches, it looks like you have one set, which would make them your primary sheet winches. The winches on the cabin top are for most anything other than jib sheets.

My C&C 30 recollection is that the primary winches are positioned so the jib sheets can lead directly from the jib blocks (aka cars) on the genoa track to the primary sheet winch, and operate properly. MY boat had secondary sheet winches, so the primaries were further forward on the coaming. Hopefully your genoa tracks are long enough that you can lead the sheets for all jibs (150-130-110-90 or whatever sails you have) through the re-positioned cars. If you need to use blocks on the toerail for any sails, you'll lose about 10 degrees of pointing.

The only thing that should affect how the sheets trim is whether they are coming onto the winch at the correct angle, so they do not bind or override. See "angle" in here: http://www.harken.com/pdf/48.2_05.pdf. If the sheets are not coming at the correct angle, you need to put the winch on pads, or add turning blocks, but your C&C 30 may not need such changes. If the angle(s) to your primaries location is a problem, so with turning blocks, as a turning block ensures the proper lead regardless of car/block location.

A picture of the sheets under load would help identify what is wrong.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Are you running your sheets direct from the sail to the winch? They are supposed to go to a block that sildes on the track on deck and then UP at at least a 5 deg angle onto the drum. The video still on the post above shows the sheet going down from the drum, into a block, the forward to the trim block and then up to the sail.

Otherwise 'overrides' will never go away.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Just to pile on here:

If you look at the deck just forward of your aft winches, you'll see that stainless T-track -- that's where your turning blocks should be. The turning block is what keeps the sheet leading into the winch at a fair angle to prevent overrides. They may have been removed at some point by a PO, but may be hiding someplace on the boat.

See if you can find something that looks something like this: 









It slides along the T-track, allowing you to fine tune the shape of your foresail at different points of sail.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Looking at your photos it looks like you should be able to run your sheets directly from the sail, to the sheet lead block on the track and up to the winch. I found some photos of C&C 35-1's racing and that is how they are rigged (see picture below).

Also, to clarify Profin's comment, in U.S. parlance the forward block on the track, which the jib sheet is first led to is a jib sheet lead block. If there is a second block that redirects the jib sheet, that is a turning block. It does not appear that the C&C 35-1 uses turning blocks, just sheet lead blocks.

Jeff








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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Jeff_H said:


> Also, to clarify Profin's comment,


Thanks Jeff - you're right as rain (as usual )


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

The older C&Cs had significant sheer, and sometimes when the jib lead block was fully forward for a small jib the lead back to the winch would be a bit too flat, leading to increased overrides.

On the vid that Denise posted you can see a turning block at the aft end of the track just in front of the winch. This is a good way to keep your sheet lead to the winch consistent regardless of the actual jib car position on the track. Our sheets go through a rail mounted snatch block for similar reasons, and also to avoid chafing the port side coaming and cabinside (since the sheet must lead to the inboard edge of the drum.. another common issue on plenty of boats)


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## RandyonR3 (Oct 2, 2005)

first, you only need ONE wrap around a self tailing winch for it to work. remember you are pulling on the tail in the top of the winch.. multi wraps will over-ride, and cause havoc when tacing fast.. 
your block or car for the sheet should be adjusted for the sail trim.. move it forward for a fat shape in lite air and further back when trimming..
the design you have on your boat is flawless and proven, dont try to change anything, might get someone with some experance to show you the ropes, (so to speak)


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

RandyonR3 said:


> first, you only need ONE wrap around a self tailing winch for it to work. remember you are pulling on the tail in the top of the winch....


You have to be kidding? With one wrap on a winch you will never even get the tail into the selftailer, because the sail's load will have taken the sheet completely out of your hands.

You need at least three turns for a winch to carry a load, four or more for smaller lines. You will never get a sheet trimmed with one turn on a winch. I guess, possibly, if you put one turn on and set the tail in the selftailer before any load gets on thee sheet, maybe the selftailer will hold a single turn on a winch (but I greatly doubt it..), however you'd be making the slowest tack in town by a mile.

PS - OP, are you getting overrides before you have the sheet trinmed as far as you can by hand? If so, you may have too many turns initially, you should have only 1-2 turns when first trimming by hand, when the sheet load builds add additional turns, set ithe tail into the self tailer and start cranking...


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

PorFin said:


> Just to pile on here:
> 
> They may have been removed at some point by a PO, but may be hiding someplace on the boat.
> 
> ...


Here is what was in the box of pullys and stuff










Any idea what this might be for??


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

Jeff_H said:


> Looking at your photos it looks like you should be able to run your sheets directly from the sail, to the sheet lead block on the track and up to the winch. I found some photos of C&C 35-1's racing and that is how they are rigged (see picture below).
> 
> Also, to clarify Profin's comment, in U.S. parlance the forward block on the track, which the jib sheet is first led to is a jib sheet lead block. If there is a second block that redirects the jib sheet, that is a turning block. It does not appear that the C&C 35-1 uses turning blocks, just sheet lead blocks.
> 
> ...


That make sence


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

My winches are more forward then yours so I've put the Jib turning block behind the winch for the Genoa and move them way forward for the working jib. Also any block with a turn of more then 90 degrees will reduce the "effort" for pulling or even for winching. The cam cleat you see holding the traveler line is really for when I single hand the jib sheets.


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

I will be sailing by my self. the PO was a singlehanded racer. I will use the track with a pully for the sheets?
see the photo.







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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

The main halyard is hooked to a sliding eye for storage only.. but that's where you might put one of those blocks, using one of the springs to hold it upright.. although in your earlier pics of hardware I don't see a real, proper genoa car. But in your bag of tricks you may find a single sheave block with a swivel shackle, around which the springs would fit to hold the block upright. Attach that to the sliding eye currently shown with the halyard stowed on it.

The tracks should/would look like this; a more common style of jib/genoa car is the next image

















Winches marked 'jib winch?' is your main headsail sheeting winch, usually called the "primary".

The aft facing clutch on the coaming is a bit of a mystery (maybe backstay adjuster? -it looks like you've got a backstay tensioner on the split, but it's not going anywhere) It (the clutch) is facing the wrong way for any jib sheet action.

The winch marked Main sheet winch? would be for the various lines that are supposed to be led aft through the clutches - likely all your halyards and perhaps some reeflines, vang, cunningham etc. Similar setup both sides of the hatch, I imagine.

This boat was obviously well looked after at some point, and pretty well rigged and equipped. You really hit a bit of a gold mine here. I hope you're able to put the big picture together soon.

Here's a shot of our boat, you can't see the jib car lead but you can see the sheet run down towards it, aft to the block on the toerail, and then up to the winch on the coaming.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Your jibsheet car that the main halyard is clipped to, should have a block on it like this:







You feed your jib sheet through that and onto the winch.
The winches on the cabin are going to be for halyards and anything else that gets led through the clutches up there. Maybe spin sheets too.
The clutch behind the main winch, wouldn't think that was for the jib sheet, more likely for furling line, downhaul or something like that perhaps.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Ah, what Faster said 
The clutch behind the winch, just on one side or both sides? Could be a convenient way of adjusting a dingy painter perhaps?


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

Faster said:


> Are you running your sheets direct from the sail to the winch? They are supposed to go to a block that sildes on the track on deck and then UP at at least a 5 deg angle onto the drum. The video still on the post above shows the sheet going down from the drum, into a block, the forward to the trim block and then up to the sail.
> 
> Otherwise 'overrides' will never go away.


You are right I was trying to go straight to the drum because coming off a snatch block on the toe rail it was getting stuck. I will try to use the track and see if it works better...


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

PaulinVictoria said:


> Your jibsheet car that the main halyard is clipped to, should have a block on it like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Every thing is hank on? no furled sails.


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

PaulinVictoria said:


> Ah, what Faster said
> The clutch behind the winch, just on one side or both sides? Could be a convenient way of adjusting a dingy painter perhaps?


They'er 2 sets of three on top of the house in front of the winches. Then there a single clutch on both sides behind the winches at the helm.


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

RandyonR3 said:


> first, you only need ONE wrap around a self tailing winch for it to work. remember you are pulling on the tail in the top of the winch.. multi wraps will over-ride, and cause havoc when tacing fast..
> your block or car for the sheet should be adjusted for the sail trim.. move it forward for a fat shape in lite air and further back when trimming..
> the design you have on your boat is flawless and proven, dont try to change anything, might get someone with some experance to show you the ropes, (so to speak)


This is a great idea, the PO showed ne 22 different cup races he won with this PHRF boat. He has Alzheimer's disease now, But one thing he told me over and over is not to change the sailing layout. He said its a well oiled and proven single handed boat. I just can't take him out with me to show me how to run the rigging. Not to mention I'm new to the whole thing. But Its coming together now. I am beginning to slowly get the kinks out. I did make it on a 25 mile run last Sunday. But it is so great to have folks willing to share their knowledge with newbie's like me. This past weekend I never hooked to the track at all with a jib sheet. I only put a snatch block on the toe rail. This did not help. So this coming weekend I will go to the boat without taken her out and try to figure out the sheet, Blocks, tracks, and such.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

ltgoshen said:


> This is a great idea, the PO showed ne 22 different cup races he won with this PHRF boat. He has Alzheimer's disease now, But one thing he told me over and over is not to change the sailing layout. He said its a well oiled and proven single handed boat. I just can't take him out with me to show me how to run the rigging. Not to mention I'm new to the whole thing. But Its coming together now. I am beginning to slowly get the kinks out. I did make it on a 25 mile run last Sunday. But it is so great to have folks willing to share their knowledge with newbie's like me. This past weekend I never hooked to the track at all with a jib sheet. I only put a snatch block on the toe rail. This did not help. So this coming weekend I will go to the boat without taken her out and try to figure out the sheet, Blocks, tracks, and such.


The primary focus in positioning the genoa block on the track is to ensure that the jib is not twisted, i.e. the luff has the same angle to the wind from top to bottom.
The simple rule for finding the optimum position, is when sailing closehauled, luff slowly:
- if the top windward telltale lifts first, move the block forward,
- if the bottom lifts first, move the block aft,
- if they both lift at the same time, you are set.

From this proper position, you do some finetuning by moving the block slightly forward to power-up or slightly aft to de-power.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Here's a Utube vid I found on how/where to set the jib lead block on the track.. it's not too long and will help you 'see' what needs to be done. Also, FWIW, I always throw two wraps on the drum during hand tailing, add a third before feeding the sheet into the jaws of the self tailer and grinding in from there. The two wraps minimizes potential overrides during the 'loose spinning' phase early in the tack, the third wrap puts less load on the self tailer and makes it easier to control the sail during the release for the next tack.


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

deniseO30 said:


> My winches are more forward then yours so I've put the Jib turning block behind the winch for the Genoa and move them way forward for the working jib. Also any block with a turn of more then 90 degrees will reduce the "effort" for pulling or even for winching. The cam cleat you see holding the traveler line is really for when I single hand the jib sheets.


Here is a better photo of the set up at the rear of the helm


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

That picture is a "what not to do". It explains your problem entirely. It is clear that you need to find yourself someone who actually knows about sailing and rigging boats to sail with you just for safety sake. That is not meant as a put down, we all had to start somewhere, but there are things in that picture which are dangerously wrong to do. I understand that the prior owner may have told you don't change the rig but he is probably talking about the tuning and lead positions. But clearly that boat is not properly rigged to be sailed, by which I mean, the hardware is there and the lines (ropes) are there but there are not run properly. At the very least you should try to find a rigger or sailmaker and offer to pay for an hour or so of their time to come down and run the running rigging properly and check its condition, and perhaps teach you how to properly set up the boat to go sailing. 

In that vein, Starting in the foreground with the halyard that runs through the block at the base of the mast (I assume its your main halyard). Just forward of the scrub brush is a group of blocks bolted to the deck. These are a 'deck organizer' and the halyard should run from the block at the base of the mast, through the deck organizer and then back through the halyard locks just forward of the winch. The halyard locks are a form of a cleat that allows you to use the winch for multiple functions and provides a proper lead to the winch. 

The Jib sheet appears to be led straight from the clew (corner) of the jib directly to the winch. Not only is that a problem with getting over rides but it provides the wrong angle between the jib sheet and the jib. This poor lead angle would prevent you from being able to go upwind properly. As mentioned there should be a sheet lead block on the track and the jib sheet should run from the clew of the sail, through the sheet lead block and then to the winch.

But also, you really need to get all the 'stuff' off the decks when you sail so it does not end up tripping someone or jambing a line. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

You really do need to get hold of someone with experience willing to go out with you for an hour or two and set you straight on the basics.

It would be well worth the couple of hundred bucks it would cost to hire an instructor for the day to show you the systems. You've got a good boat with very good gear that just needs to be set up correctly. Otherwise I'm afraid someone's going to get hurt first.

Understand this is not a put-down.. you're new and you really need some help - I suspect much of the advice here on this thread is of limited use if only because you don't yet even understand the terminology.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Looking at your picture, the item labeled "Jib winch?" is the jib sheet winch.

The item labeled "Mainsheet winch" is intended for the main halyard (the line that raises the sail) and for the Boom Vang, which is not rigged at the moment, and perhaps for the spinnacker sheets when racing.

The item labeled "What is this for? Is it for holding the Jib Sheet tight for sailing alone?" appears to be linestopper for the spinnaker sheet/guy. It is intended to be fed from the stern(Back of the boat). You have time for that one.









My best guess looking at the pile of stuff is that the previous owner used the white snatch blocks attached to the car on the track as his jibsheet lead block.

I am guessing that the three blocks with the red flecked- white line reeved through them is your boom vang which should use the same deck organizer as the main halyard and one of the three stoppers forward of the winch.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Faster said:


> You really do need to get hold of someone with experience willing to go out with you for an hour or two and set you straight on the basics...


Faster ,

I agree with your advice 100%. Seeing the sheet lead in the post 28 picture is a stark reminder how what may seem basic can be not apparent when you are learning on the go.

An even better approach would be the full ASA 101 class, then the risks would be far more under control.


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

I do thank all of you for your advice. I am seeking help from some local sailor friends. I am learning a great deal from this site as well. I do not take any affiance at all, I'm new to this sport and my sail on Sunday humbled me to no end. It was a windy day like 12 to 15 out of the south. We did o.k but, I could tell we were doing all kind things wrong. I could tell the running rigging had a problem getting stuck on the drum of the winch. We had 3 accidental jibes were the boom swung from one side to the other. I told my help on the main to center the boom and he did not. I think that’s what broke all the slugs off the main along the mast. I’m taking lessons right now. Well not really. I have tried around here for lesions but they don’t have them here. They do have them in Charleston or Savannah but not here in Beaufort SC. So I will learn like many fine sailors before me. I will go slow, I will not take too many risk with weather and tide, I will ask for advice and I will ask for every sailor friend I can make to go sailing with me. I can do this. If all else fails I still have a great yanmay main sail to get me home.
Don’t loose faith my friends , I can do this. And thanks again so much for your experience and willingness to share it with a new sailor wishing to learn the ropes without braking the boat.


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

Faster said:


> You really do need to get hold of someone with experience willing to go out with you for an hour or two and set you straight on the basics.
> 
> It would be well worth the couple of hundred bucks it would cost to hire an instructor for the day to show you the systems. You've got a good boat with very good gear that just needs to be set up correctly. Otherwise I'm afraid someone's going to get hurt first.
> 
> Understand this is not a put-down.. you're new and you really need some help - I suspect much of the advice here on this thread is of limited use if only because you don't yet even understand the terminology.


I try to use this
Nautical Nomemclature


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

Thanks so much for your help. Here is short of the Sunday trip.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Itgoshen your next weekend assignment is: Take more pictures of your rig. I would like to get a clearer picture of the area around your primary (cockpit) winches, the “T” track on your weather (“side”) decks, the winches and rope clutches on your coach roof, the base of your mast and some shots of your boom vang and mainsheet control. That way I can help you out a little bit better. On your next go pro video, try not to move around so much and wait a little before you pan to your next subject – I want to see how your sails are working without getting seasick on my keyboard. 

From what I’ve seen (and what others have told you), you need to have a lead block between the jib and your winch. Also, you need to position the block so as you sight up the jibsheet, it intersects the headstay at its midpoint. The way you are set up now, this intersection is way too low and that is why the top of the jib is flopping around. Set this up correctly and you will be amazed at the improvement. Looking forward to future pictures and videos.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

ltgoshen said:


> I try to use this
> Nautical Nomemclature


That's a start.. but not really inclusive and not detailed enough for most of what we're trying to tell/show you. But hang in there.. with all the advice you're getting now and a bit of personal on-board guidance all will become clear.


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

GeorgeB said:


> Looking forward to future pictures and videos.


sorry for the sea sicknessHAhAh.
Take a look at this video start at 1.40 into it to see the mast bottom and house top. 



maybe turn doun your speekers first Sorry

I will get petter photos This weekend


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

By the way I was wrong about my guess that the three blocks with the red flecked- white line reeved through them is your boom vang. The video shows a very nice rigid boom vang which does not appear to be set.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> By the way I was wrong about my guess that the three blocks with the red flecked- white line reeved through them is your boom vang. The video shows a very nice rigid boom vang which does not appear to be set.


You will still need a vang to adjust the boom height. Check this video of another C&C 30 (25 seconds in). Actually it shows without running the video.


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

Jeff_H said:


> The video shows a very nice rigid boom vang which does not appear to be set.


I was told for the first time last how to get it to lock into place so it would hold the boom up. and so I can lower it . Not sure what the other setting does?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Jack that spinlock rigid vang has a powerful internal tackle for the vang mode and uses a mechanical latch mechanism for boom support. Once you release the support mode you do have a vang.. inside the strut.

We have the identical model on our boat.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Tell ya what Itgoshen, I'll very generously swap your boat for mine. Mine is rigged up and ready to go. Just pay shipping and handling


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

PaulinVictoria said:


> Tell ya what Itgoshen, I'll very generously swap your boat for mine. Mine is rigged up and ready to go. Just pay shipping and handling


HAHAHAH I have began falling in love with her already. Sorry... I just have to ease into a relationship with her without getting killed or hurting her.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

LT you boat has all the hardware in place for single handing and racing!


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

YA! if I can just learn how to use it all properly.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Our C&C 35 MKIII has a movable jib sheet block ( genoa lead car) located on a car on the jib tracks and a Ronstadt deck organizer with sheeve that serves as a turning block located on the outside of the combing below and slightly behind the location of the self tailing winch. The jib sheet goes from the clew....through the genoa lead car on the track....along the combing through the permanently fixed sheeve (deck organizer) behind and below the self tailing winch up to the winch drum. This way the jib sheet stay low along the combing and has a good angle of entry to the ST winch

http://www.mauriprosailing.com/Ronstan-Deck-Organizers/RONRF41811.html- fixed sheeve turning

Schaefer Mid-Range Twin Sheet Lead Block at Mauri Pro Sailing


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Itgoshen.. Where you been???

I snapped some pics last week of our genoa leads, and the Spinlock vang setup so you can see what that looks like... presumably you've sorted out the genoa situation from all the descriptions, but here's a picture or two.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Faster said:


> Itgoshen.. Where you been???
> 
> I snapped some pics last week of our genoa leads, and the Spinlock vang setup so you can see what that looks like... presumably you've sorted out the genoa situation from all the descriptions, but here's a picture or two.


Why are you running your jib sheet through a snatch block on the rail?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

jzk said:


> Why are you running your jib sheet through a snatch block on the rail?


So that with the jib lead forward on the track we a) don't have too flat an approach angle on the drum.. in fact it's always the same no matter where the jib lead position is... and b) so that the sheet doesn't 'saw' through the coaming/cabinside, esp on the port side where it has to come onto the inboard side of the winch drum.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Faster,

If that is going to be a permanent piece of hardware, you really need to switch it out for a standard block. It looks like you are using a Ronstan 6710 or something in that size range, and they are just not strong enough to handle the loads a turning block will see. It isn't the static loads that will break it, but a shock load from hitting a wave, or when the sail fills suddenly. If I am right about which block that it, it is rated to only about 2000lbs MBS, compare that to a Harken 57mm black magic rated to 3500lbs or a high load block rated to 5000lbs.

Itgoshen,

Please, please, please go hire a local racer/boat bum to go out with you for an afternoon. Even if they aren't instructors, a lot of the problems you are having just require a few minutes of work from someone who is knowlagable to get you guys in much better shape. At least around here I can grab a local boat guy from a couple of beers, and a promise to take his girlfriend out with us.

If you are in Beaufort SC, in fact just take a walk down to Beaufort yacht club and ask around, you can probably get a couple of guys to help you out for nothing except a promise to go sailing. I am pretty sure there is also a college team that sails out of there, and they could be a good resource for someone that can help you out.

You have a beautiful boat, and it is very well equipped, but poor rigging can not only make sailing more dangerous for you, it can also seriously damage the boat.


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

Thanks, I have moved from the mooring field over to the docks at Port royal Landing marina. Now I'm getting a multitude of help. Thanks so much for pointing me in the right direction. this has been a great help to me learning the ropes. Thanks to you all,


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## webguy262 (Jul 31, 2012)

jzk

I see from another post here that you owned an Irwin 38 aft cockpit. Is that correct? I have one, and have only found one other person who has owned that boat.

Does this look like your Irwin?

Irwin 38


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