# shopping for a project boat...



## thenrie (Jun 25, 2006)

I'm getting ready to retire and try some of the things I have always wanted to do, but never had the time, money, and location all at the same time. One of these things is sailing. I am looking around for a sailboat project and have been doing a lot of research on various boats I have seen come up for sale in the area (Virginia) and am starting to define my wish list a bit.

I am obviously a beginner, with some boating experience, but no sailing experience to speak of, so I'm not looking for an ocean cruiser. I am quite comfortable in my other hobbies, leaving civilization for days, or even weeks at a time, so I know I want coastal cruising capabilities for more than simple overnighters. I will likely have one daughter as crew, and occasionally up to 5 aboard for day cruises or overnighters, but I expect that often I'll be single-handing. Most of my sailing will be in and around the Chesapeake, with occasional ventures north and south, just to see. 

I am also a do-it-yourselfer. I get my warm-fuzzies from taking something that doesn't work anymore and bringing it back to life. No need to warn me about the expense of restoring/refitting an old boat, or informing me that it is less expensive to buy one that has been well-maintained. I am well aware of that, but it just doesn't fit my character. I NEED to fix things. Using them is secondary - a reward for the work; I view the cost as I do a tool. I know. It's a mental illness. A character defect. Whatever. It's how I am. Anyway, from my youth I have developed at least basic skills in mechanics, electrical systems, woodworking, fiberglass, and other things. I have a fully stocked cabinet shop, welding outfit, mechanics shop, and am still collecting tools of every kind. I don't have a tractor yet, but I'm gonna get one (what is it about tractors?)

From my research, I have identified several boats that seem to be common in this area that I think would fit my needs: Pearson 26,28, and 30; Tartan 27, 30, 34c; Sabre 28. I have seen a couple Seafarer 29s for sale as well, but I seem to be leaning to more traditional-looking vessels. I have to say, the boat that has become my favorite (never having stepped aboard one) is the Tartan 34C. Each of the listed boats have been offered for sale for anywhere from $5000 (Pearson 30 Coaster) to "Cost of removal" in my area over the past several months. While the Pearsons seem to be most common, I really have developed a taste for the Tartans. However, I found a Sabre 28, that includes a trailer, that has been sitting unfinished since 2006, that piques my interest as well.

What I'm asking for here, is a discussion of the various virtues and vices of the above sailboats, and their suitability for my desires, as well as their relative values once they are brought back to "well-maintained" condition. Please keep in mind that I will get the training I need, and I will be competent to do the sailing I intend to do, and I will know intimately my boat as I do so, so it would be most useful to me if the discussion were more about the capabilities of the boats than the sailor.

Love the forum and the great information from experienced sailors. I especially love the threads about refits and restorations. I hope to be contributing such a thread soon.

Tony
Stafford, VA


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

I've got to say that I like your short list of boats. That is probably because I own a Tartan 27' from 1967. We have a Tartan 27 users group over at yahoo: T27Owners : Tartan 27 Owners Yahoo Group
The T 27' has a very 'shippy' look like some of the Pearson's you mentioned. It is a good sailor and the center board makes it a good candidate for the Chessy with it's thin waters. The cabin is just not very large but it is cozy.
I also like the idea of a T34C you mentioned: TARTAN 34 C sailboat on sailboatdata.com and the Sabre 34' also has a very good reputation.

Many boats from this era also come needing some basic repairs though. Leaky chain plates, soft decks, old rigging, old sails and older engines are common issues you will likely encounter. Most people would not be up to the challenge of fixing these issues but they can be done. Several people in my T27 group have re-cored their decks this year or are in the process of doing so. 
Many of us still have older Atomic 4 engines in our boats that have required us to become familiar with keeping the old 'beastie' runing. My A4 is from 1967 as is my boat. The forum at Moyer Marine is extremely helpful with any A4 issues: Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians - Powered by vBulletin

It sounds to me as though you are up for the task. Now all you need to do is go and look at as many of the boats on your list as you can - before you buy one.

Good luck.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Tony, watch out for the "cost of removal" boats. It usually means the owner isn't mentioning the fact that they know it wold cost more to fix that boat, than it would cost to simply BUY another boat in working condition with zero hours of labor and zero yard bills. It is very easy to get involved with a boat that has unapparent problems, which can include extensive deterioration from water getting into the deck, or bulkheads, or keel damage, etcetera.

I would say that 'stage one' as such would be to really read up on DIY boat surveying, on structural issues, and perhaps to buy your own moisture meter as well.

I'd also suggest that you take some sailing lessons, and build on that by bumming rides on "OPB"s (other people's boats) to get a feeling for what _kind _of boat you will want. Like Jeeps and Ferraris, they all go down the block but they do some things in very different manners. If you want to sail solo, or with one crew, you want a boat with a small cockpit so everything is within easy reach. But if you want to sail with five friends, you need a MUCH bigger cockpit, and typically a bigger boat, so you're not ripping over each other.

Some boats are light and rely on crew sitting on the rail to keep them upright. Others are heavy and can't really move in light winds. Before you marry one, you want to get some insight into these things and the best way to do that, is to bum rides and see how they sail. Sailing lessons, followed by some "I can crew, do you need any?" is a good way to do that.

If you really want a project...I'm almost afraid to say, look for a classic wood boat. They need incredible amounts of time and money but just about everyone will stop to look over a classic with a mirror-finish varnish job on it. Purely a labor of love, and you've really got to know that before you get into it.


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## thenrie (Jun 25, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> If you really want a project...I'm almost afraid to say, look for a classic wood boat. They need incredible amounts of time and money but just about everyone will stop to look over a classic with a mirror-finish varnish job on it. Purely a labor of love, and you've really got to know that before you get into it.


Believe me HS, it's on the bucket list (along with building an airplane, restoring a '70 Mustang Mach 1, and a 300 mile horse pack trip), although I waffle between restoring a classic wood boat and just building one. That's still down the road a ways. Not sure I have enough years left to get them all done. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment. My biggest problem is that I know I'm only going to be here in VA for about another three years. Enough time to refit and use a glass boat. Not enough time to build and enjoy a wooden boat of any size. Not sure where I'll end up. The hope is I can find what I want in seaworthy condition and sail as I refit, although the challenge of taking a "free boat" and bringing her back to life is what really lights my lamp. It's almost like saving the whales or something.

Caleb, I have my eye on two Tartan 27s right now, but I'm not quite ready to buy yet. It will probably be January before I'm ready. I really like the look of them, but keep thinking I'd like a bit more room. I started watching for a Tartan 30C after I saw one given away about two months ago. Of course that will never happen once I'm ready to buy. That led me to look at the 34C as well. The Sabres don't seem as plentiful around here, but I found a 28 on a trailer and started researching them. They have a great reputation as a good sailer and it would really be nice to have her on a trailer, so I could winter her in my yard, next to my workshop!

Tell me a little about your T27 please. Thanks for the links.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

tony, 

if you don't do the Sabre and the price is in my range (cheap) let me know...I had a bigger Sabre and loved it, was going to buy a 28, but the captain said it was too small, so we got the 38...


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Tony

Having done it with great results one of the difficulty's you will run into is protecting your basic cash outlay during the restore as its not to tough to drop 15K in materials

I was forced to roll the insurance dice during the restore because no reputable insurance company wanted to be involved with a 1/2 finished boat



















By the time your project gets picked up and moved to your location and set in place on proper jack-stands and blocking there is a dollar or three involved


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

thenrie said:


> ...snip...
> 
> Caleb, I have my eye on two Tartan 27s right now, but I'm not quite ready to buy yet. It will probably be January before I'm ready. I really like the look of them, but keep thinking I'd like a bit more room. I started watching for a Tartan 30C after I saw one given away about two months ago. Of course that will never happen once I'm ready to buy. That led me to look at the 34C as well. The Sabres don't seem as plentiful around here, but I found a 28 on a trailer and started researching them. They have a great reputation as a good sailer and it would really be nice to have her on a trailer, so I could winter her in my yard, next to my workshop!
> 
> Tell me a little about your T27 please. Thanks for the links.


Tony,
If you are considering getting a 'woodie' (as in wooden sailboat) or re-building a Mustang then I'm quite sure you could handle an old Tartan 27'. 
I too just love the way they look. Very few other boats where we are have the same lines so ours stands out except for the few 'woodies' which were probably part of the inspiration of Sparkman&Stephens (S&S) who designed this as their first FRP production boat. 
I invite you to join the yahoo group we have going that I linked to. You have to join yahoo and get a yahoo id but it is free. I'll personally approve your membership. We have 300+ members and lots of photos of owners boats and boat projects as well as various documentation (owners manuals, reviews, polars etc, etc). 
I do think that the T27 would be an outstanding choice for you as it is quite easy to single hand. The only caveat to that is that we have a fairly new roller furling unit (Fulex 100) on our boat which makes deploying the jib and reducing it's size a breeze - pun intended. Changing a hank on jib solo would not be as easy. 
Our T27 is in near 'mint' condition with very few previous owner (PO) upgrades as far as the cabin goes. We still have the ice box that many owners have ripped out in favor of more space and extra shelves (I'm quite tempted to do this too). 
I've actually done precious little cruising in our boat, mostly day sailing in the beginning and now mostly weekly racing with her. After a few seasons of racing we came in very close to 1st place in our division, beating the likes of Catalina 30, Cal 28, O'Day 27 with a Tartan 30 just edging us out (good sailors on the T30). 
The handful of times I have slept on board I have enjoyed it a lot. With an oil lamp burning and thunder and lightning going on outside it was quite cozy in our little cabin. I have had up to 3 bodies sleeping on board but I'd say that that is about the upper limit for inside the cabin; 4 close family or friends but then there is little space for everyone's gear. In fair weather 2 could also sleep in the cockpit. 
I'll stop rambling now.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Don't be fooled by the initial price. Consider that plus the cost of the repairs and upgrades. A new engine can be $5000 to $10,000. A new set of sail can be $5000. It adds up quickly. As others have noted, it may be cheaper to buy a nicer boat that needs much less work. That said, this is a good time to look as the season is ending and owners are looking at winter storage bills. You may be able to strike a good deal on a decent boat that will keep you busy over the winter but not drain your bank account and get you sailing in the spring.


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## SkywalkerII (Feb 20, 2008)

I've got to second Caleb, here. As another T27 owner, hull 249, there's something special about her lines, sailing behavior, and charm. I recently re acquired her after a five year fling with a C&C 34, which I'm still trying to sell. I did total rebuilds of both. Working on the Tartan is easier due to the design- no fiberglass pan or headliner, tabbed in cabinetry/woodwork, size/scale. I'm re coring the deck right now as part of my second re build of her- I'm crazy, too.

I raced her extensively both around the buoys and ocean racing. We were very successful, especially in the ocean because once you crack her off the wind a little, she sails way above her rating. She does well in light air in spite of her displacement and loves a small craft advisory.

I also cruised her with my three kids and loved every minute. Cozy, enough storage for a long weekend, nice size berths. We slept on her every summer weekend for years.

After five years on a C&C 34 which is vastly larger and faster, I couldn't wait to get back on my Tartan 27 and neither can my kids.

For what it's worth.

Skywalker
T27 249


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## mikefossl (Feb 21, 2008)

I have to say that boats provide endless opportunities for projects irrespective on how old or how well maintained. It may be better to fine something that is fundamentally sound so that you can pick and choose the projects that interest you. Trying to restore a beater that has been rotting for the last decade can lead to discouragement and a depleted boat fund.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

From your self description I'd say we were separated at birth. I have all the same character defects you list. 

I've built a 26' race boat from a hull shell, restored a 26' race boat that was extremely run down (partial deck recore, new engine etc. etc. and am restoring a 43' old shoe. I think I speak from experience.

My advice is DO IT....... *BUT* start with a reasonably decent boat that you can use right off or nearly so. Going this route will probably slow the project down as far as final completion goes but if you can use it at least some of the time it will hold your interest better.

From what I understand, you get a reasonably serious winter there and that is when you get the most work done, especially if you can get it indoors.

If you will be sailing with up to 5, get the 34' Tartan!!!


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

Look at Alberg designed boats. They mostly look and (probably) sail similar. Pearson Triton, Bristol 27, Alberg 30, Cape Dory's of many sizes. Even if you want a big project, I still agree with others that you should get a boat that starts out with all the stuff you need to sail. You can then do part of the re-fit every season, and still get some sailing in.


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## thenrie (Jun 25, 2006)

Lots of good Tartan info. Thanks, Skywalker, for the info about camp cruising with the family. That's the stuff I'm looking for. Also, the icebox issue with the T27 is interesting. Probably won't be an issue with me, since most of my sailing will likely be just my daughter and me for a couple of days, or her and her friends with me for day sailing. Maybe a couple of my other kids once in a while. Once I started looking at the T27, I found I really like her lines. Most of the other 26-28 footers I have researched seem a little stocky or stubby. So far, the Tartans are leading the pack.

Still, I would like to hear from someone with a Pearson. I understand the 28 and 30s are nice boats and good sailers. I particularly like the Coaster 30.

Mike and Jim, thanks for your advice. I know it's sound advice, but to tell the truth, it defeats what I want to do. I'm actually looking for a boat that doesn't work. I've been doing this kind of thing too long to expect to "conserve my investment". I like taking things that don't work and that folks have thrown by the wayside and making them work again. Like I said, it's an illness. I've already told my kids not to expect much of an inheritance. Besides, I can rebuild an engine myself for a few hundred bucks, and sails are not terribly hard to make, if you just study up a bit. You see, I'm on a whole different paradigm. It's sort of like books. Some people like to read 'em. Some people like to write 'em.

Tom, nice Cal. She turned out very well, judging from the outside. Thanks for the pics.

kd3, The Sabre 28 was a Craigslist listing that has expired. I got their email, so I can contact them when I'm ready and see if the boat is still available. I expect it will be. There are way more boats for sale around here than there are buyers, particularly for those boats that need work.

Barq, isn't the Pearson Coaster 30 an Alberg? I like the lines of the Albergs, but they aren't as common as the Tartans and Pearson around here.

Anybody know much about Helms boats? There are quite a few Helms 27s popping up. I know one offered for $100obo, and it floats!

Thanks for all the feedback folks.

Caleb, look for me on the Yahoo group site. Same username. Thanks


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## SkywalkerII (Feb 20, 2008)

Another thought about cruising with kids. The helm is very light and the kids were always comfortable at the helm, even when the were quite young. The boats motion, even in a stiff breeze, inspires confidence. I'm lucky enough to live with a view of Long Island Sound from my house. My daughter, when she was 10 and 11, would look out her bedroom window, see whitecaps, and tell me it's a good day for sailing! 

Skywalker
T27 249


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

I have some experience with this, with a 1979 Mariner 28.

As stated earlier when buying a project boat ensure the basics are there. A hull, keel, rudder and deck that only require minor repair. Rigging and mast in good shape. Ensure the shrouds are secured well.

On the Mariner it required a lot of work on the interior and exterior teak. I had the hull soda blasted there were no moisture spots in the hull. Put on a coat of moisture barrier and 2 coats ablative.

The exterior teak alone is a full time job to keep up with. The original engine is still installed and runs great, electrical system is fine and I installed my own electronics. Will install an auto-helm this winter.

I just replaced the mainsail and headsail this past year. 

I should point out it was an abandoned boat in a yard that I paid $12000 for in 2007. Since then I have put in another $5000 for new sails and $4000 in electronics (chart plotter and VHF) I pay about another $5000 a year in yard bills and slip fees just to maintain the boat.

This past year I invested $2000 in work on the mast and furling system.

The soda blasting was $1500 but removed 20+ years worth of paint

The point I am trying to make is that there will be things you can do yourself and things you can't. The things you cant will be expensive.

I have enjoyed every minute as I believe you will as well. Just be careful and don't get in over your head so you can enjoy it.


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## vadimgo (Feb 23, 2007)

12 K for an abandoned boat?
Isn't it too much?

But more to the point, small increase in size (from 27' to 33') adds some more volume and a lot more working. Both the surfaces that need something done and stuff that fits inside. The even bigger issue is the "real estate". Transportating/hauling around, storage and docking - the $$ difference between 27' and 33 could be huge. Like, at 33' keelboat, unless your other business is boat transport, forget about trailering by yourself. Lenght/weight/height clearanse etc.


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## andrewoliv (Sep 22, 2011)

Actually we felt the $12k was a bargain. Hull in excellent shape. It still has the original rigging, mast, roller furling, and engine. Abandoned boats vary, I looked at some where the hull required extensive work, engines would have to have been rebuilt or replaced, interiors completely ripped out and refurbished, etc. Again there are good bargain project boats out there just start with a foundation based on your skill set and time.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

thenrie said:


> I'm getting ready to retire and try some of the things I have always wanted to do, but never had the time, money, and location all at the same time. One of these things is sailing. I am looking around for a sailboat project and have been doing a lot of research on various boats I have seen come up for sale in the area (Virginia) and am starting to define my wish list a bit.
> 
> I am obviously a beginner, with some boating experience, but no sailing experience to speak of, so I'm not looking for an ocean cruiser. I am quite comfortable in my other hobbies, leaving civilization for days, or even weeks at a time, so I know I want coastal cruising capabilities for more than simple overnighters. I will likely have one daughter as crew, and occasionally up to 5 aboard for day cruises or overnighters, but I expect that often I'll be single-handing. Most of my sailing will be in and around the Chesapeake, with occasional ventures north and south, just to see.
> 
> ...


Take a look at Good Old Boat - Fixer-Upper Sailboats


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I would only add.. what ever boat you find to be your project. Try to at least sail it or even motor it one time before you put her on the hard.. then you will have something to inspire you to "fixerup"! So many boats were bought with well intentions but the owner had never sailied it and never really connected with the boat. 
Jus sayin..


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Sabre is probably the top name in all those boats. Not that a Sabre28 will trump any 34, but Sabre earned a reputation for a very solidly built boat, with a high resale value, andgood handling and balance. Little things like putting a dust grate at the bottom of the companionway tell you that the folks who designed the boat, spent a lot of their own time on boats and didn't cut corners.

But part of the decision has to be whether you want to build a doll-house, or build something you'll be sailing for daysails? Overnights? Pay attention to the head as much or more than the berths, if you plan to have women aboard and want to stay out overnight. Or if you prefer being able to step off a boat looking fresh and clean.<G>

If you want a real project look for something with a teak deck, the old ones need to be removed, the deck sealed, and then new teak laid--beautiful but labor intensive and not cheap either. I'd expect any 30 year old teak decked boat to have many leaks by now. It is the rare few that were built and maintained well enough not to have issues by now.


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## thenrie (Jun 25, 2006)

deniseO30 said:


> I would only add.. what ever boat you find to be your project. Try to at least sail it or even motor it one time before you put her on the hard.. then you will have something to inspire you to "fixerup"! So many boats were bought with well intentions but the owner had never sailied it and never really connected with the boat.
> Jus sayin..


I like that thought very much. I'll keep that in mind.

Again, thanks for all the replies. This is helping. From some reading I did today, I have added a Pearson Vanguard to the list. Look at me. Don't even have a boat yet and already getting the "2-footitis"!

By the way, signed on to the T-27owners yahoo group. Thanks for the tip.


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## thenrie (Jun 25, 2006)

I have an incoming friend request from NateKing. Anybody know him? Hasn't posted to this thread, so I'm thinking he's a spammer.


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

Try the smallest boat - even with a 28 ftr, expect to spend upwards of 1,000 hours working on it. 


Do not think in terms of length - think in terms of displacement or even better yet volume. 

a 34 ftr has way more volume than a 27 ftr - you'll be restoring all that add'l volume.


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## Lake Superior Sailor (Aug 23, 2011)

Sure your good with wood,glass & a machanic: But you better get shopping on Ebay if you want to get an old craft ship-shape! With out ebay my Cal 28 would still be a dream. Just finding parts, and parts you can afford--E BAY. --Dale


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

WDSchock said:


> Try the smallest boat - even with a 28 ftr, expect to spend upwards of 1,000 hours working on it.
> Do not think in terms of length - think in terms of displacement or even better yet volume.
> a 34 ftr has way more volume than a 27 ftr - you'll be restoring all that add'l volume.


Plus One!
And, that's the Great Truth that some people do not want to hear or understand...


Having agreed with that, another bit of purchase wisdom from NA Bob Perry, from about 25 years ago or so, was to buy all the waterline you could because that's what generates speed, and then to buy as small a boat as you can actually be comfortable on... and finally buy something that makes you smile when you're rowing away and looking back.
I do not have his exact quote, but IIRC that was the gist of it.

LB


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

olson34 said:


> another bit of purchase wisdom from NA Bob Perry, from about 25 years ago or so, was to buy all the waterline you could because that's what generates speed, and then to buy as small a boat as you can actually be comfortable on... and finally buy something that makes you smile when you're rowing away and looking back.
> I do not have his exact quote, but IIRC that was the gist of it.LB


As usual, designer Bob has it right, EXCEPT, the "look back factor" should be first on the list, not last IMHO. All of our boats are self indulgent toys whose only purpose is emotional satisfaction and pleasure so beauty should be the most important factor in selecting them. You can forgive many faults in a beautiful boat but a characterless "running shoe" just doesn't fully replenish the soul.

For myself, I'd rather work on a beautiful boat than sail an ugly one.


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## thenrie (Jun 25, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> As usual, designer Bob has it right, EXCEPT, the "look back factor" should be first on the list, not last IMHO. All of our boats are self indulgent toys whose only purpose is emotional satisfaction and pleasure so beauty should be the most important factor in selecting them. You can forgive many faults in a beautiful boat but a characterless "running shoe" just doesn't fully replenish the soul.
> 
> For myself, I'd rather work on a beautiful boat than sail an ugly one.


I have to admit, this principle has been a powerful influence on me, and I have to say that I find myself drawn to the older, narrower, less room inside, longer overhangs, some rake in the sheer, type of boats. If I could afford a knuckle-bowed wooden 45' schooner, that's where I'd be, but the investment in a boat like that is a lifestyle decision, and I just don't have that option. I know I'm going to be a weekender for the most part, and likely never to venture farther away than the Caribbean (I will bare-boat charter from PR for that), but I'm determined to get what I can, while I can.

The thing is this: I want it to be (become) MY boat. Not somebody else's boat that I bought. I have a great workshop, I'm close to the coast, I have enough of a place to store the boat on my property over the winter, if it is trailerable, and I will have plenty of time to keep it up and make improvements/repairs as needed, and, within reason, the financial resources to do so.

I have spent time researching the Pearson 26, Cat 25 and 27, Helms 25, Ranger 26, and others, but I still keep coming back to the Tartan 30, Pearson Coaster 30, Tartan 34, and lately the Pearson 32. I just think I would be sorry I went with a 25-26' boat when I can easily buy a 28-30', or a bit larger, for merely a few hundred bucks more, both boats being in about the same condition. The market is such that there are plenty of boats available, and few buyers, particularly those willing to take a boat that needs more than minimal work. I want to select the most boat I can handle (sailing and financially), not just the longest, but the best for my needs. If I ever hope to get my wife on one, and have her enjoy it, I am afraid it will have to be bigger than a 25' boat, if for no other reason than it's motion on the water (which I know has a lot to do with hull design and other factors, which is why I started this thread).

WDSchock said, "Do not think in terms of length - think in terms of displacement or even better yet volume."

(Related to E.B.Schock? I love his boats.)

I think that's good advice. I'm finding myself drawn to full keels and good beam, slack bilges, but I really don't care for the modern wide, light, flat-bottom, sailboats I'm seeing in the magazines. I like old stuff. I like old boats.

The only sailboat I have ever been on was a Bristol 35.5 that was not in the best of condition, but still was a joy to sail on. I really liked the interior space, the traditional look, and the easy way it handled. I made a deal with the owner that I would build him a teak hatch cover in exchange for sailing lessons. I bought the teak, then was transferred away from Puerto Rico before we could get things together. I still have the teak. So, I have made a firm decision that I will not leave Virginia without learning to sail and having a sailboat to work on. Just a few more months now...


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## ArcherBowman (Jul 1, 2009)

See, here's the thing about buying a boat. You'll have a list of features you want, and a list of features you don't want. Some will be must-haves, others will be dealbreakers. You'll look for boats. Your broker will show you boats. And one day, you'll see YOUR boat. And that will be that. The feature list will guide you, but if it doesn't make you say "oh my" when you look at it, it's not YOUR boat.



SloopJonB said:


> As usual, designer Bob has it right, EXCEPT, the "look back factor" should be first on the list, not last IMHO. All of our boats are self indulgent toys whose only purpose is emotional satisfaction and pleasure so beauty should be the most important factor in selecting them. You can forgive many faults in a beautiful boat but a characterless "running shoe" just doesn't fully replenish the soul.
> 
> For myself, I'd rather work on a beautiful boat than sail an ugly one.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

thenrie said:


> ... So, I have made a firm decision that I will not leave Virginia without learning to sail and having a sailboat to work on. Just a few more months now...


There is a Pearson Coaster on the Northern Neck of Virginia for $5K that might suit you just fine:

30' Pearson Sailboat`

I would have had an unhappy wife if I bought it.


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## thenrie (Jun 25, 2006)

Yep, I have been watching that Coaster. It's in North Carolina. I like the look of the boat. I was hoping somebody would shed some light on some of the Pearsons. I am aware they have been known to have soft deck problems, which is not a "deal-breaker" for me, but I'd like to know more about how they sail and whether they are comfortable for 2-3 people for a week's worth of gunkholing. I find I am drawn to the full-keel boats more than the fin keel, although I can't really say why. I guess it just looks more "shippy" to me. Those with full keels and centerboards, like the Tartan 27, are particularly interesting to me, in view of the shallow waters of the nearby Chesapeake Bay.

I checked that link for Good Old Boats fixer-uppers and saw a Chinook 34 in need of restoration (no specific information) listed last summer from Cape Cod. I don't know much about them, but I love the lines of that boat.

From what I am reading here and elsewhere, any of the boats on my list will do what I am wanting to do. I think I am going to focus on boats from 27-30', but not rule out other models up to 34', should the right one come along. I am going to try to find one I can sail while I refit, but that won't be a deal-breaker for the right boat, since I'll likely end up replacing all the rigging and sails, and rebedding hardware, overhauling the engine, etc, before long anyway. As long as the hull is sound, I'll be fine with it. From the listings I have been watching along the east coast on Craigslist, I should be able to find a good prospect in the $1500-$3500 range, once I'm actually ready to buy, sometime in the next few months. 

With all that in mind, and with your input here, I think I'm going to specifically watch for a good Tartan 27 prospect, although a Pearson Triton or even the Sabre 28 I mentioned will be possibilities, as well.

Again, I appreciate all the input.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

A Rare American Classic Project Sailboat Find (w/ A Realistic Reserve Price) | eBay

Tony, I've no idea how accurate the description is but here's a classic Herreshoff wood boat in Maryland that might work for you. They tend to be elegant admired ladies when they're all cleaned up and shiny.


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

"Originally Posted by WDSchock View Post
Try the smallest boat - even with a 28 ftr, expect to spend upwards of 1,000 hours working on it.
Do not think in terms of length - think in terms of displacement or even better yet volume.
a 34 ftr has way more volume than a 27 ftr - you'll be restoring all that add'l volume.
Plus One!
And, that's the Great Truth that some people do not want to hear or understand..."

Agreed tenfold, my C22 took roughly three months to transform from a craigslist special to a safe, pretty sailing vessel. My C30 has taken me all year just to remove old systems, clean and prepare to move to another marina. The dynamics and logistics of all the systems that the C30 has compared to a C22 are immense. Hell, I spend weeks simply planning how a new system will be installed, then I sit on the boat and run through the plan again until it passes the common sense test. Length can be very deceiving, the difference between a C27 and a C30 is only 3 feet, but the C30 dwarfs the C27, in both complexity and shear size inside.


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## thenrie (Jun 25, 2006)

I've seen that Herreshoff add, both on CL and ebay. I would love to do that, but looking at the type of repairs it needs, I'm pretty sure it would take me a while to get her back in the water. Before I tackle a wooden boat of that size I plan to take some courses at IYRS and make sure I can do an excellent job when I make repairs. I hate doing things halfway or doing them poorly. One of the reasons I'm looking for a glass boat right now is that I know I can find one with a good hull, in need of topside and interior work. Most wood boats in my price range need hull work. Once I have a boat I can sail, I'll look for a wood boat to restore, or possibly to build from the keel up. He's looking to get $9500 for her, but I doubt he'll get close. I'd hate to see her get cut up, though.

My first objective is to find a boat that I will be able to repair/refit sufficiently to sail within a few months, then continue the work as I sail.

As I continue my research and read different threads by folks in a similar position as myself, I find myself more and more considering buying a smaller boat, like a Cat 25, Helms 25, or Pearson 26, which are so plentiful around here, and learn on that while I look for my next one. I could buy a beater, make it safe, then keep beating it while I learn, then pass it on to the next person to beat and learn on. Not really what I was hoping to do, but would surely get me in the water sooner and cheaper. My dad keeps telling me that a smaller boat gets used more.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

thenrie said:


> As I continue my research and read different threads by folks in a similar position as myself, I find myself more and more considering buying a smaller boat, like a Cat 25, Helms 25, or Pearson 26, which are so plentiful around here, and learn on that while I look for my next one. I could buy a beater, make it safe, then keep beating it while I learn, then pass it on to the next person to beat and learn on. Not really what I was hoping to do, but would surely get me in the water sooner and cheaper. My dad keeps telling me that a smaller boat gets used more.


Your Dad is very right. Just watch the boats in your local marina or mooring field. Generally, anything over 35' gets used only occasionally and over 40' rarely, unless it's a racer. There is a very visible example near me - a Discovery 42 - a very nice raised saloon style from the 70's. It's docked at the foot of the owners garden on a medium sized multi-residential island. It is away from the dock exactly three weeks a year - two weeks of summer cruising and one week when it comes across the harbour entrance to be hauled for maintenance. I've lived here for 20 years and it has been like that every year. Most that size are some variation of that story.

And why, if you buy a beater 26', just keep beating on it before passing it on? Fix it up and you might MAKE a few bucks. You WILL learn a bunch about fixing up boats, which you will need for your future plans. You'll also acquire a lot of the tools you'll need and get a lot of personal satisfaction.


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## thenrie (Jun 25, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> And why, if you buy a beater 26', just keep beating on it before passing it on? Fix it up and you might MAKE a few bucks. You WILL learn a bunch about fixing up boats, which you will need for your future plans. You'll also acquire a lot of the tools you'll need and get a lot of personal satisfaction.


Aw, that was just a figure of speech. I was meaning that I would learn on it, make my initial rookie mistakes on it. I have a disease that makes me improve anything I own. It would certainly leave my hands in far better shape than what it was in when I obtained it. I find this disease is almost as expensive than those that require physicians!

Just saw a Ranger 26 on CL for $650 (sold for back rent on slip) and a Helms 26 (must be a Helms 25, since I don't think they made a 26) for $100. Recently saw a Cat 25 that was dismasted in Irene that the guy was offering to pay $300 to get it out of his slip! Wish I could get all three and just put them back into shape. That's the nature of my disease. I just have to fix stuff that needs it. The one I'd really like to go see is the Tartan 27 for $2500. Just a couple more months now...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

thenrie said:


> Aw, that was just a figure of speech. I was meaning that I would learn on it, make my initial rookie mistakes on it. I have a disease that makes me improve anything I own. It would certainly leave my hands in far better shape than what it was in when I obtained it. *I find this disease is almost as expensive than those that require physicians!*


One more reason to not be in favour of universal health care - up here that particular disease is WAY more expensive than anything requiring a physician. I speak from hard experience since I have a terminal case of it.


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## hriehl1 (Aug 8, 2007)

My counsel is to really ask and answer the core question... is it the fixing-up that revs your engine, or the thought of sailing it after the refurb? Sounds to me it is definately the former.

So consider the possibility that when you're done with the re-furb you'd really rather sell it and have another "project" in the side yard. Its like many guys with cars... they love restoring them but when done, they just want to sell it and move on to the next one.

If that describes you, then I'd advise you to look for something a bit more in the premium category that when refurbed will have a ready market and fetches a higher price.

While Bristols, Pearsons, Tartans and C&Cs are fine boats, they are rather common and even when refurbed will only fetch mainstream money. If you're going to start with a bit of a wreck anyway, why not a wreck that'll be worth more when you're done?

I cannot suggest particular makes / models but I'm sure others can. I think the market for neglected boats is broad and deep.

Stated differently, why re-furb a Dodge Dart when for similar time, effort and money you could re-furb a Cadillac?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

hriehl1 said:


> My counsel is to really ask and answer the core question... is it the fixing-up that revs your engine, or the thought of sailing it after the refurb? Sounds to me it is definately the former.
> 
> So consider the possibility that when you're done with the re-furb you'd really rather sell it and have another "project" in the side yard. Its like many guys with cars... they love restoring them but when done, they just want to sell it and move on to the next one.
> 
> ...


Wise words, especially about your "core question". To fix up a beater boat to try to get a boat cheaper is as futile as building your own boat. It is FAR cheaper to buy a decent useable boat in the first place. The work has to be what you are after for it to make sense. People in this situation usually forget just how much work even a GOOD boat is to maintain and customize a bit. Building or rebuilding one is 10 to 100 times as much work and cost and time.


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## thenrie (Jun 25, 2006)

Yes, but hrieh is right. It's the fixing that does it for me, although I am excited to learn sailing. It's like that with me. I enjoy fly fishing, because I can tie my own flies, build my own rods, and then catch fish with them. The idea of refitting a "premium" boat appeals to me. Some boats will be out of my range, regardless of condition, I suspect. I recently saw a 28' Cheoy Lee for free, but older Cheoy Lees seem to have a poor reputation as a restoration prospect. When it comes right down to it, though, I'm not planning on making money on the project. I've never made money on anything like that in my life. I always go overboard on things and put more into them than I ever get out (although the folks who buy my projects do pretty well). I just like the project. Hrieh is probably right. I'll get a boat, fix it up, then sail it while I'm looking for the next project boat.

With that in mind, anybody have any comments comparing a Helms 25 or 27, and a Pearson 26?


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## mikel1 (Oct 19, 2008)

Check out the Ericsons . . .seriously...


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Your mention of a Cheoy Lee reminded me of this web site:
Name Your Own Price - Anchor Point, Inc.

Check out the 27' Cheoy Lee - I thought it was beautiful. I wound up chickening out because it was outside the Admiral-approved range back when I was looking, and it was in Annapolis which would be a several-day sail home and I'm still a novice (I'm near Philly).

I think you've gotten some excellent advice, and really need to consider carefully whether your goal is to spend time fixing up the boat, or actually on the water. You mentioned that it's both - I would suggest that you really pick one or the other. Do you want to fix it up, take it out a few times for "test sails", and then sell it? Or are you looking for something that needs work, but that you'll be able to sail for years? If the "fix up" side of you wins that argument, then that's great, and the suggestion to go higher-end makes a lot of sense. By contrast, if you goal is to get on the water, you are probably better off channeling your money into the purchase of a boat that is closer to "finished".

I recently purchased a 1984 Catalina 25. She's in good shape, and really doesn't NEED a lot of work, and I got her for a song (almost literally). Yet, my current "to do" list before the boat is ready for the water next season is pretty extensive, and I've only just had her hauled out for the first time, so who knows what other issues I'll find. In fact, I'm heading to the marina in less than 10 hours (God, I need to go to bed!) to start figuring some of that out. But currently, my list comprises:
1) Inspect standing rigging and replace anything that needs replacing;
2) Inspect running rigging and replace as needed;
3) Inspect sails and, where possible, repair them myself;
4) Tune up outboard engine;
5) Take off all exterior wood and refinish it;
6) Inspect the sail track on the mast and fix dings;
7) Check and repair/replace mast lighting;
8) Repair/replace other lights;
9) inspect electrical system, including shore power;
10) replace VHF radio
11) Refinish interior cabin wood;
12) bottom paint;
13) Fix/recover torn interior cushions;
14) Repair possibly leaky port light;
15) Inspect and possibly replace keel winch assembly;
16) Inspect keel bolt and joint;
17) Add reefing lines;
18) switch to in-mast halyards;
19) Switch to all rope halyards;
20) Add lifeline netting;
21) Inspect thru-hulls and repair as necessary;
22) add cam and clam cleats to jib sheets to facilitate single-handed and crewed sailing;
23) create cockpit cushions;
24) create covers for grab rails, tiller, and companionway; 
25) review rigging locations and possibly re-route halyards for easier single-handing;
26) remove old name and add new name; and
27) buff and polish.

Those are, of course, in no particular order, and I'm SURE I've missed some. Some of them are urgent, some could wait until she's in the water next season or even beyond. But I list them for you so you can get an idea of what can be/needs to be done on a boat that, objectively, is in decent shape. The big deal with mine is that I can (and have) SAIL her just about any time, and even without almost the entirety of the list above being done. I'm a tinkerer, have several projects 'on the go' at any given time, and am somewhat handy. But my boat is going to be at least 45 minutes away (and probably closer to 2 hours away), so getting time on her may be a challenge, what with kids obligations, family obligations, bad weather, etc. I would MUCH rather spend those precious hours when I'm on the boat actually SAILING her, that's what she's for. I have enough projects to keep me entertained at home for those "other" weekends when we can't get to the boat.

The boats you are have mentioned are a tad on the big side (in my humble opinion) for a first boat - I'd look more in the 27-30 range, and possibly even a 22-25, depending on how you plan to use her (if you plan to sail her more than once or twice). You'll have your hands full when she finally gets into the water if you go with something too big, unless you plan on hiring help or have experienced friends.

Of course, that's just my take. Again, weigh which way will make you happiest (tinkering or sailing) and go for it. It sounds like you have the head and skills to do it properly and carefully, which is important.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

thenrie said:


> Yes, but hrieh is right. It's the fixing that does it for me, although I am excited to learn sailing. It's like that with me. I enjoy fly fishing, because I can tie my own flies, build my own rods, and then catch fish with them. The idea of refitting a "premium" boat appeals to me. I just like the project. Hrieh is probably right. I'll get a boat, fix it up, then sail it while I'm looking for the next project boat.


Then what are you waiting for? - *JUMP*. 



thenrie said:


> With that in mind, anybody have any comments comparing a Helms 25 or 27, and a Pearson 26?


Don't know the Helms but the Pearson 26 is a good looking boat and the ones I've seen have held up very well.


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## thenrie (Jun 25, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> Then what are you waiting for? - *JUMP*.
> 
> Er...retirement in about 4 months. I have a couple of projects I have to finish at home before the wife will let me say goodbye to my steady paycheck. I'm finishing up the extensive remodeling of a rental house. Once that's done, hopefully by the end of January, I'll be ready to start walking around the boat yards and looking to actually make a purchase. I'm sort of in the research phase now. There are so many opinions and so many boats available, that it's sort of an information overload. As I learn about various makes, sizes, types, etc, I am forming an idea that will allow me to narrow things down a mite, so I can walk away from things that are outside that idea. Over the years I have found I am more likely to be satisfied with my project if I don't buy on pure impulse. I'm doing a lot of reading on sailing and on boat maintenance/repair/refit, and plan on taking lessons in the spring. I'm doing my homework. Hopefully within a couple months I'll be posting pics of my new sailboat project and asking questions about how to get it into shape.
> 
> ...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

henrie, there is a rare chance that you might find a long set of The Practical Sailor in some library. Really rare.

But they've also published at least two trade paperbacks filled with their old boat reviews, which can be obtained new and used. The reviews aren't just one man's opinion, they are based on contacting as many owners as they could find, so there are a LOT of opinions from long-term owners and professionals.

I'd really really suggest getting hold of those two books as a start. See what they say about the boats in your size range, and about the manufacturers even not in your size range. Sometimes you'll read "Fumpfenstump built outstanding light hulls but used home grade exterior plywood instead of marine plywood and as a reasult they all rot out" well, that can tell you to expect problems in any boat they built.

And because it was written, drafted, revised, edited, it tends to be more comprehensive than the posts you'd find in sponstaneous internet comments.

When you're done with the books, you can always put them up for sale again. Or pass them on to the next fellow who could use a little help pursuing the dream.

And you might want to get an ElectroPhysics moisture meter of your own. Fifteen minutes on your own and you'll know just how badly a hull may be soaked.


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## thenrie (Jun 25, 2006)

I'll look for those Practical Sailor books. I've heard of them, but never come across one.

I'm ashamed to admit that I missed my shot at my #1 choice for a boat last week, because I hesitated. A Tartan 30 came up on CL, offered by a boat yard for $100 down and $75/mo for 12 months and no storage fees (on the hard). The boat was owned by a man who sailed her for several years, then decided to do a major refit. He removed all the hardware and much of the interior, and started stripping the hull for paint, then ran into health problems. This was the Tartan 30 I mentioned that was offered for free several months ago.

The current owner, who owns a boat yard a short distance from where the original owner had her, picked her up and brought her to his yard, where he intended to complete the refit. His business took a different tack, so he decided to see if he could find someone to refit her, rather than cut her up and part her out. I called and talked to him. He said the hull looks good, a couple soft spots in the deck, and he has all the hardware in a storage shed and he believes it is all there. I ended up telling him I'd talk to my boss (wifey) and give him a call back. A couple hours later he called me and said someone had come by the yard and bought the boat.

Oh well. I could have had the boat essentially for $100 and it would have been the perfect project boat for me. I learned a lesson, though. Once I am ready to make a purchase, I'll get "pre-approval" from the boss, so I can leap without looking...er...I mean... I can make a decision without having to worry about factors other than whether it is the right boat for me.

Jimgo, I have seen the ad for that Cheoy Lee in Annapolis. I think the guy is wanting $3000 for it, which is a little high for the condition, I'm thinking. The interior is disassembled, possibly incomplete, there is no motor, no sails, and wood mast/boom in unknown condition.

To whoever got that Tartan 30. Enjoy. Let me know if you have second thoughts.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Too bad on the T30. They are good sailors if kept in shape. That big deep keel seems to give her good tracking and help her stay on her feet in a wind. We race against one. This year the T30 got 1st place; we got 2nd in our T27 in our high PHRF division. 
Many T30's were originally equipped with Atomic 4 engines which can be purchased in varying conditions for relatively cheap (compared to a working diesel). 
Have you given up on the idea of a T27?


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## Southcoasting (Oct 25, 2011)

Very interesting read in your quest to find your soulmate...I didn't find mine, it found me...


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## thenrie (Jun 25, 2006)

No, haven't given up on the T27. It's running a close second to the T30 on my list of possibles. I have seen two recently in the $2500 range that would be good prospects. I'm looking forward to actually getting aboard one and taking a good look. Another few weeks and my schedule will start opening up a bit.

Yes, SouthCoasting, I have received a lot of good feedback on this thread, and it has helped, but I have gotten more feedback on the wisdom of buying a project and how much of a project I should buy than I have on the boats themselves. I fully understand my capabilities and am under no illusions regarding the costs involved, so I was actually hoping for more information on the boats. For instance, as common as the Pearsons are, nobody has said anything about them at all. Some good feedback on the T27, which has swayed my mind more toward the Tartans than anything. One person suggested an Alberg 30, but didn't say why. Still, I have thoroughly enjoyed the exchanges and appreciate all the input everyone has offered.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Take this for what it is worth; second or third hand hearsay.
There is a skillful lady skipper at our club who we have raced against for several years. She used to own a Pearson 30' that they would race and do quite well. She recently bought a Tartan 30' that she raced this season and also did quite well (first place mentioned above). I spoke to her recently and she compared her old P30 to her T30, saying that she loves the way the T30 handles in a blow compared to the P30. She said that the P30 would tend to round up in heavier winds but the T30 tracked better and was a stiffer sailor. 
I trust her opinion.


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## dmcMaine (Sep 1, 2010)

I don't know where you are, but this T27 is listed up here in Maine

Tartan 27

I had asked the current owner about it for myself, but there is a little too much work to be done for my tastes. I don't want a project, I want a splashable. 

from my email with the current owner's daughter:



> The boat was built in the mid-60's. I bought the boat 10-12 years ago from the original owner. When I bought it the owner had installed a 27hp yanmar diesel to replace the original atomic 4. He had been in the process of reconfiguring the enclosure around the engine, but had never started the engine. This was over a period of 10 years while it had been stored inside his barn. I've done little to it except get the engine going which has under 100 hours on it as over the period of time I have owned it I have only had it in the water for 4 years. It has been out of the water on jack stands for 3-4 years, covered. It has an extensive sail inventory which, if not original, has not been upgraded in 20-25 years. I have rebedded around the chainplates, the cushions are serviceable but have never been replaced. It has basic electronics, no navigational instruments. It is in good to fair conditional with most of the original parts in tact.
> 
> I know also that the centerboard is in good working condition. The cover blew off last spring and damaged two mid-ship stanchions as well as the deck a little where it is now soft.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

That is a decent project T27 for someone. I'm pretty sure the OP is in the mid Chesapeake area so hauling costs would be high, unless they are willing to give it away. The yanmar engine sounds like a good upgrade and could even be worth the cost of shipping (~$6K) from ME.
Project boats are not for everyone.


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## thenrie (Jun 25, 2006)

Thanks for posting that ad. That's about what I'm looking for (although I'm in Virginia). It may not be available when I am ready for the purchase, but I'm confident, after having watched for several months, that a similar boat will come available at the right time. I'm pretty convinced a T27 is the way I want to go....unless another T30 comes my way. At the least, they're at the top of my list. At this point, I think another boat would have to be a very tempting deal to turn my head.

Thanks for that report about the Pearson 30 v the Tartan 30. That's the kind of info I'm really looking for. I wonder how the Pearson Coaster 30 would fare against the T30.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

thenrie said:


> I'm ashamed to admit that I missed my shot at my #1 choice for a boat last week, because I hesitated. I ended up telling him I'd talk to my boss (wifey) and give him a call back. A couple hours later he called me and said someone had come by the yard and bought the boat.


Dirt cheap "good" boats, hardware at consignment shops, exceptional deals on Craigslist etc. are the DEFINITION of "Strike while the iron is hot".

I missed out on many things like this in the past while I pondered it or checked with SWMBO. I have learned to grab them while they are available. I save my pondering style for such purchases as cars in the normal range of market prices.


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## thenrie (Jun 25, 2006)

Yup. Lesson learned.


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## souljour2000 (Jul 8, 2008)

Columbia 29 Mk II is a great sailing platform ....sea-kindlier than most any production boat ever built....and fairly easy to work on...despite only 8 foot beam... they have a cutaway full keel, 2 to 1 ballast to gross weight, skeg-hung rudder...solid decks,etc....no racer but they do 6.36 vs. the tartan's 6.6 kts....and they're real nice to look at...the big windows are a drawback since they are difficult to make attractive shutter/braces for the outsides in a blow. Also they are hard to find...


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