# CS30 Structural Grid Repair In Bilge



## krazykoozak (May 24, 2010)

Greetings,
Does anyone know what the internal composition of the stringers in the bilge of a CS30 consist of? I'm wondering if the grid structure is hollow, or has coring?
Has anyone repaired/replaced sections that were cracked due to grounding the boat?
Many Thanks.


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## captflood (Jan 1, 2011)

GREETINGS EARTHLINGS; Have you tried and cut for a sample or drill to see the swarff ? as always GO SAFE


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## krazykoozak (May 24, 2010)

It's a boat I'm considering buying and fixing myself as a project. I'm going to see the boat this weekend and will have a better idea then. I was just hoping to get some insight into the construction to mentally prepare what would be required for repairs.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

krazykoozak said:


> Greetings,
> Has anyone repaired/replaced sections that were cracked due to grounding the boat?


I know sailnetters are annoyingly conservative and I hate to have to play that cliche but...

Fin keel boats, especially more modern designs, often distribute the keel loads with a some form of lattice in the bilges of the boat. This is because the loads on the keel are significant, more than enough to cause failure where the forces concentrate - especially where the keel meets the hull aft.

A hard grounding at speed stopping a 4 ton boat all focused on that point and hard enough to rip apart the structure designed to support that load? Scary. I would be nervous that as the load transferred to parts of the structure not designed to support it (i.e. the hull laminate, then the bulkhead tabbing, even the chainplates and rigging) there would be damage that's invisible to non-destructive examination.

Do you know exactly what happened to the boat?

Have any photos you can share?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I am pretty sure the grid is fiberglass without any wood core. My CS27 is and it pre-dates the CS30 by a few years. The grid is hollow.

Depending on how hard the hit was the damage could be extensive. To repair it properly access is needed which could mean removal of cabinetry. 

I was on a 33' Beneteau recently that hit a rock. The damage was repaired professionally - for 26k.


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## krazykoozak (May 24, 2010)

Thanks for the reply Mitiempo and Zedboy.

The boat is said to have been grounded on a shoal under power. 
The subsequent survey for the insurance claim indicated no damage to the exterior hull, but a deformation of the aft upper end of the keel, and substantial damage to the stringer grid in the aft section of the bilge.
hopefully the attacements of photos i have will load...

Thanks again for your input.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Yeah right no damage to exterior hull. That puppy flexed real nice to deform the keel like that and crack those stringers. Hard to tell what the glass underneath looks like without chipping/peeling off that cracked gelcoat.

My little bit of experience with this tells me the glass can still be flexible even on an older boat - lots of stories of improperly stood (standed?) boats' hulls "popping back out" once put back in the water, presumably with no ill effects. 

Whether you could make a claim that everything is still ok just because the stringers look healthy under that gelcoat, and assume things just flexed and took the impact ... I'll let bigger experts than me weigh in. And if the glass looks bad, all bets are off.

My boat is wood


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Hopefully rugosa will notice this, you might want to PM him.. he worked with CS for a time.

This looks like a pretty serious grounding, and though undoubtedly repairable it's not a small job. A big part of it is determining the actual extent of the damage. The hull skin (apparently intact could have internal damage not visible from outside. I really don't think this is a DIY repair for most of us.. Kinda scary - the boat would have to be nearly free to take this on.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

That's some serious impact to compress the bend into the keel. CS 27 through 36T were solid glass grids. Expect same on other models. When I worked at CS '78 to '83 we took in a 36T that had grounded in Bahamas and disected it. Lots of fun to tear one apart. The damage extended beyond the visible, including delamination (downward tearing) at forward end of bilge, (upward tearing) in way of engine bearers, etc. CS furniture fit was highly consistent so look for uneven cabinet mountings, cabinet and cabin doors that bind or have uneven joints, screw plug pops, tabbing delamination, tanks shifted or off mounts. Split the shaft coupling to get an idea if the engine moved too. Also check steering thoroughly - impact at forward edge of rudder, binding turns (bent stock). The cheapest thing to fix will likely be the impact ding in the keel. Hopefully it is free to a good home.


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## fiberglass1 (Nov 16, 2009)

When a fiberglass boat is damaged the cracks are easy. They're obvious and not difficult to estimate. The real, and expensive, part of the problem is delamination. At the top of the trailing edge of that keel, there was enough force to bend the keel and shed whatever coatings (gel coat, paint, epoxy sealer) were in place. When the glass is deflected that far you can bet it's delaminated. my guess is that the delam is probably on the order of 12 inches across and 10 inches fore and aft. Basically, the same goes for the grid. Cracks are cheap, delams, not so much. Forget the surveyor, get a qualified glassman and don't stop grinding until you've reached the perimeter of the delams. Otherwise, it's like building a house on sand.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Agree with Faster, and am not even close to being an expert on anything, however I have been around boats and boatyards for a long time. This looks like the equivalent of a broken back with possible massive repair work that may be sound or maybe not. If you got the boat free, maybe worth the gamble, maybe not. Another sound boat that hasn't been crippled might be a better alternative.

Paul T


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## krazykoozak (May 24, 2010)

Thanks everyone! Definitely some wise words to consider.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Some projects are like banging head against wall; feels good when you finally quite.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

How would you know if you had fixed it?

What is the test going to be? Go sailing on a strong wind bumpy day and see if the keel falls off or the hull delaminates?


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

TQA said:


> How would you know if you had fixed it?
> 
> What is the test going to be? Go sailing on a strong wind bumpy day and see if the keel falls off or the hull delaminates?


But that would be annoying because you'd have to haul again if it turned out not to be fixed.

Much easier: just have the yard drop it from the travel lift.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

dabnis said:


> This looks like the equivalent of a broken back


Think about how far the trailing edge of the keel had to deflect up to put that S-bend in it.


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## fiberglass1 (Nov 16, 2009)

You get somebody who knows what the hell they're doing and repair it with epoxy and an intelligent fiber orientation and it'll be better than new. Oh, and good luck finding that guy!


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

fiberglass1 said:


> You get somebody who knows what the hell they're doing and repair it with epoxy and an intelligent fiber orientation and it'll be better than new. Oh, and good luck finding that guy!


Curious to know about how much it might cost?

Paul T


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

As I posted earlier I worked on a Beneteau 331 that hit the keel and damaged the grid - not as bad as that though. The repair bill was 26k.
I had nothing to do with the repair - I was working on electrical.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

The grid is definetly hollow and the damage is significant. As others have mentioned the more serious damage may be what you can't see. If you are really interested in the boat find a marine surveyor with a thermal camera and make sure he is certified to use it properly. This will reveal any lamination damage. The grid is a fairly simple fix .... delamination could cost big bucks to repair.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> delamination... (downward tearing)... (upward tearing)... uneven cabinet mountings... uneven joints... screw plug pops... tabbing delamination... tanks shifted or off mounts.


There are a certain words in the english language that should not be associated with sailboats.


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## krazykoozak (May 24, 2010)

This Sailnet forum is really an amazing tool. To be able to pick people's brains from all over the map with all sorts of prior experiences is invaluable.
Thanks everyone who've taken the time to send their two cents my way.

The repair quote was $35,000. I'm not sure how intrusive the testing for damage was in order to come to this number.

I'm going to take a look at the boat, the repair quote, survey and talk to the yard and form an informed opinion then...


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Um...KK, why would you want such a project?


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Perhaps you could find another un-damaged similar boat for $35,000? Re-sale value on a boat that has been "fixed" may not be so good? Is there something super special about this particular boat other than it being wounded? Just wondering out loud.

Paul T


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## krazykoozak (May 24, 2010)

the reason is that "IF" it's repairable and i get it for next to nothing it's exactly the boat i'm looking for.
CS boats are very well built and also sail well. I'd be using it on an inland lake for weekends/evenings.
my budget is limited and i'm looking for my next project to tackle. if it's doable, i welcome a challenge, that's just the way i am....


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## krazykoozak (May 24, 2010)

"dabnis"- good points. i realize that the resale will never be comparable to an unbent boat. my justification to buy it would be if i were able to get it for a song, and do the majority of the work myself, i could keep the repair costs well below the 35,000 and have a nice boat when i'm done.
maybe i'm crazy.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

Not that I know anything about this type of repair but it's a buyers market. There are lots of cheap boats out there for reasons other than having their entire hull structure compromised.

Maybe if it's free, and if the boat is in fantastic shape, recent engine, sound decks, sails... everything else, and you're sailing on an inland lake where the risk of hull failure is less...but there are a lot of boats out there.


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## krazykoozak (May 24, 2010)

i can't argue with that asdf38.


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## itsaboat (Sep 28, 2011)

Pretty much what asdf said. It's a shame that happened to such a nice CS, but she's done in my limited opinion. Sometimes, no matter how pretty a girl is and how hard you fall for her, it's not worth trying to fix her. 

Good luck on your search.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Here's the listing for the damaged boat - they are dreaming with that asking price. 1987 CS 30 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

There are 5 other CS30's listed for under 35k, several of them under 30k.

cs Boats For Sale

I doubt you could fix that boat properly for less than what its market value is. And with others for under 30k that haven't hit a rock why bother.

My guess is that the insurance company wrote it off and are trying to get something for what's left.


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## jcase12 (Feb 20, 2012)

If you have access to a thermal camera (mid IR) you could do a noninvasive survey of the damage and see if it is more than you want to deal with. If you dont have one (like most people) you could try calling around to professional surveyors they are starting to use the tech to do their jobs. Also depending on how much you are wanting to invest I believe FLIR systems has a rental program that you could use. I use a FLIR camera in my research and they are by far the best on the market (great support too!)


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Looks like the Toronto area brokers are out of touch with their US conterparts for pricing


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

rugosa said:


> Looks like the Toronto area brokers are out of touch with their US conterparts for pricing


I'm not sure that is the reason really. CS is very well known in Canada and in particular Ontario. It is an unknown, obscure brand in most states.

Pat Sturgeon Yachts in Mississauga Ontario has almost specialized in CS over the years. He currently lists 20 CS boats out of 101 sailboat listings.

Out of 7 CS30's he has listed currently one is at 33,900 and the other 6 are between 37k and 40k.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I'll say it one more time.. KK I think this damage is beyond the DIY level for good, reliable repair. This is massive damage, much of which may well yet be unseen. Even for free, your repairs will come close to the lower cost example in mt's posted listings. Buy one of those boats and you'll be sailing tomorrow without all the grief, ifs and "oh sh**ts" that are likely to pile up on you with this one.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

And if I was a future buyer I would walk if I found out about this level of damage, however good the repair. Quickly.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Keep us posted KK .Did you walk or what?


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

Not all the damage is apparent without some serious grinding. The grid is not your only problem. Delam will show up later when water gets into fissures in the glass. Throw in a couple of freeze/thaw cycles and the boat will start leaking like a sieve when you subject it to rig loading and some shock loading. You might find a fix price less than $35K but the good glass guys are hard to find. I had a similar problem with a boat I owned. Insurance company wrote it off. Don't walk on this one, run like Usain Bolt is chasing you with a meat cleaver.


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

I can GUARANTEE you there is more hidden damage that you will only uncover as you get along in the project. Oh, and once you uncover that, you'll probably find some more stuff that's buggered up. Cynical? Maybe. But also a lesson I've learned twice on wooden one designs I restored/am restoring. Fortunately the cost of my lesson was relatively small.

Do you really want to get half way through a repair job, find out it's really hard crappy work, get dejected, maybe run short on funds for any number of reasons (change/lose your job, get divorced, have a kid, get sick, whatever) and then 2 years from now have a half fixed boat that you've sunk some $$ into and you still aren't sailing?

But hey, if you're determined, then my hat is off to you and good luck. Make sure you take lots of pics.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

You're getting tons of great input and advise here. Why don't you get a pro or two on site, PAY THEM FOR THEIR EVALUATION TIME, and get some worst case scenario quotes. Andy ******* at ******* Custom Yachts ******* Custom Yachts is nearby and Nick Bailey at Bristol Marine Bristol_Marine_Ltd » Page 1 of 3 in Port Credit. Both have full service facilities, proper shops, experienced staff. Many of their staff are from former boatbuilders like C & C, CS, Grampian, Whitby Boat Works. You might find that they have already quoted on this boat for others.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

sailordave said:


> . . . half way through a repair job, find out it's really hard crappy work, get dejected, maybe run short on funds for any number of reasons (change/lose your job, get divorced, have a kid, get sick, whatever) and then 2 years from now have a half fixed boat that you've sunk some $$ . . .


OOOPS! Seen this way too many times working in marine business. Stroll around the boatyards, talk to the locals and hear the stories about 'that boat over there', 'this guy over here', 'I remember this n that'.

Look at any restoration (anything for that matter) as a budgeted job. Labor, materials, transport, storage, lift in/lift out PLUS 10-20% safety net for arisings (those are the things you can't see that will be uncovered and must be done to get the project to completion) and a target completion date (plan for it to take longer). Don't forget the out of pocket tax on labor/material/handling that nobody gets back. Figure out what your time is worth in $ & compare how long you will have to work your paying job to cover the cost.

It's kind like taking your date out for a movie & dinner. $100 + tax divided by your hourly wage and that's how long you have to work to break even. All that for some pleasure. With all the hours & $ you spend on this project you could instead be sailing on a well found boat overnight. If it's the purchase price that doesn't work, maybe a boat partnership is an alternative.

With all the CS30 on the market you might find a highly motivated seller looking to cut a sweet win/win deal for *sailing this summer*.


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## krazykoozak (May 24, 2010)

Ok, ok. I think I've finally been beaten into submission. I can't deny that all the feedback has been eye opening, and that it would be a daunting project to jump into.
Perhaps continuing to save my pennies until I can afford a structurally sound boat is a better route to take...
Thanks to everyone for potentially saving me from a massive headache.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

If dreams were cheap, beggars would sail . Gotta go ,got boat work to do.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

krazykoozak said:


> Ok, ok. I think I've finally been beaten into submission. I can't deny that all the feedback has been eye opening, and that it would be a daunting project to jump into.
> Perhaps continuing to save my pennies until I can afford a structurally sound boat is a better route to take...
> Thanks to everyone for potentially saving me from a massive headache.


I can guarantee you will like sailing, maybe even a little smaller boat, better than inhaling fiberglass splinters. You made the right call.

Paul T


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

krazykoozak said:


> Ok, ok. I think I've finally been beaten into submission. I can't deny that all the feedback has been eye opening, and that it would be a daunting project to jump into.
> Perhaps continuing to save my pennies until I can afford a structurally sound boat is a better route to take...
> Thanks to everyone for potentially saving me from a massive headache.


I wouldn't give up, just wait for something with problems more suited for DIY repair. Even bad decks, or an engine replacement would be easier to tackle with lower consequences for a botched job than this. In the high 20 foot and low 30 foot range there are just tons of boats around. With a little patience you should have no problems, especially since you're obviously willing to tackle some significant projects.

That said, the one thing I still find (potentially) interesting about this is that this boat has one problem that single handedly erases all of it's value (but for good reason). Probably the only thing that can do this are a bad hull such as this, or perhaps a busted deck step. This stands in contrast to most other cheap boats that will have something wrong with everything (such as mine...). So in theory, you could study up on this one type of repair, do it, and have yourself a boat. But this would only hold if everything else was in perfect just-refit-from-top-to-bottom condition. And I don't think that's the case.


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## gentek (Aug 31, 2010)

I would recommend you hire a professional to at least look at it and make recommendations on repairs. If you are doing the work yourself hiring a pro as a consultant will save you time and money. You will get a lot of advice here but nobody can really give you good advice without seeing it up close and personal. I take it you do not have insurance? If the repairs are not done right the results will at best devalue the boat at worst end in disaster.Pay particular attention to the keel attachments point, lost keels have cost lives. Good luck


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

gentek said:


> .......I take it you do not have insurance? .


The OP is/was considering buying this boat.. he's not (yet) the owner. It was supposedly at a bargain price to reflect the damage but few of us saw that as realistic.

But you're correct, and he's been urged already to either walk or get a professional appraisal of the whole picture.


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## souljour2000 (Jul 8, 2008)

Well, I guess unless some other unfortunate soul chooses to try and bring this boat back from the dead...I think we can safely say another fin-keeler bites the dust...lol..jk  

In all seriousness...you guys all did great and really helped Krazy out by making him "go view the body" on this one....I admire his drive and willingness to invest sweat equity but you guys did what had to be done and seems he will be okay now...There will be another boat KK...good luck


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Faster said:


> The OP is/was considering buying this boat.. he's not (yet) the owner. It was supposedly at a bargain price to reflect the damage but few of us saw that as realistic.
> 
> But you're correct, and he's been urged already to either walk or get a professional appraisal of the whole picture.


The problem is even the best professionals can't 100% predict what they will find when they start grinding and cutting away the grid to repair it. As others have said delam is the big problem and that is often tough to detect even with grinding, soundings and thermal cameras but water always seems to find a way. The CS were very ruggedly built boats but a grounding so hard as to bend the lead keel would have sunk most boats. That boat is lucky to have floated off on her own...

What about the keel bolts? Did they stretch, compact the lead in the J bend and are now loose? Do they have micro stress fracturing? Is the keel hull joint leaking that ccould lead to keel bolt crevice or pitting corrosion? At the least the keel needs to be dropped, inspected and perhaps new keel bolts installed by an outfit like Mars Keel $$$$$$$$. Even if you can replace the bolts how are you going to straighten the keel? The old molds for these keels are long gone and a custom pour would run THOUSANDS.... You could easily be into just the keel for 10k and not have even started on the hull...

Even if you got this boat for free you'd likely be into it for more than a sister-ship can be bought for that has never been hard grounded. Labor adds up fast at $80.00+ per hour and materials are offensive these days.... Hell I paid $10,300.00 just to have the bottom stripped, faired, keel stripped, faired and the joint wrapped and then barrier coated. That was with no structural repairs and honest hours... You'll be doing at least that on this boat by the time you're done...


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## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

I actually fixed a similar but smaller case on a 1976 Hunter 27. When they picked my boat up to put it in the water the marina called me and said the boat came up 2 inches but the keel hadn't budged! The problem was pretty obvious, it was a really poor design. I carefully supported the keel and hull, then ground out the entire structural grid down to a bare hull. I used a coarse carbide cutter designed for beveling steel pipe. It me several days of really nasty work to remove everything. The stringers had been made of wood, and I made all new stringers then put it all back together using gallons and gallons of epoxy and many yards of woven roving. The bilge had always had water in it, now it remained dry. I sold it to a guy who sailed it for the next 10 years from New Jersey to Florida and back with no problems.

My current boast also had keel structural problems. Bad design again. I had to rip out nearly the entire interior to get access to fix it. It is fixed and I am trying to get her back in the water this season, without refitting all of interior at this point.

Yes the value of the boat in question is essentially what you could get if you parted it out completely and trashed the hull. Fixing it is a huge job, and I for one wouldn't do it again!

Experience. It's what allows you to recognize a mistake, when you make it again!

Gary H. Lucas


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## krazykoozak (May 24, 2010)

Hey everyone!
Many thanks again to all of you for taking the time to describe your experiences/troubles/tribulations and for giving me your honest feedback. Without it, I may very well have done something rash and gotten myself in over my head and ability...

All that said, I am happy to announce that as of today I am the proud new owner of a C&C 27 MK5. She is of 1985 vintage and has been very well taken care of. Knock on wood also structurally sound hahaha... I bought her for $15000 from an older gent who is retiring from the sport, and has equipped her out nicely. I'll be sure to post pictures once I take possession.
Fair winds and happy sailing all!


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Congratulations - much better choice. Now go sailing!


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## itsaboat (Sep 28, 2011)

Congrats! Looking forward to the pics and your first "how do I..." posts!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Good move! That's a nice boat that will do you nicely for quite some time, I expect, and if you keep her in good kit when you do go to move up you'll get most of that back, or at least have a relatively easy re-sale.


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