# Interlux Schooner vs. Sikkens Cetol



## wavedancer38 (Sep 11, 2009)

For years Sikkens Cetol has been the industry standard for brightwork. Recently, I bought a book called "The brightwork companion" and they seem to prefer Interlux Schooner which costs about the same. Schooner needs 5 to 12 coats vs cetol's 3 to 4, and doesn't give you that orange color and hide the grain. Schooner is a clear finish with a tint of gold and resembles a wooden bar top and lasts as long as cetal, occording to Interlux, who now owns both. 

Does anyone have experience with Schooner and feel it is worth the transition?


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Schooner is varnish. Great look, but requires more work than Cetol. If you don't like the orange color of the original Cetol, try the natural teak color.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

wavedancer38 said:


> For years Sikkens Cetol has been the industry standard for brightwork.


No, it hasn't.
It has been the shortcut preferred by those who can't do, or don't want to do a proper varnish schedule.
The use of Cetol is usually excused with "I'd rather spend my time sailing.'

IMO Cetol is to varnishing brightwork as microwaving a Lean Cuisine is to cooking.
Now that you have read the "brightwork companion" you understand how brightwork SHOULD be done.

I am not a big Schooner fan- As old-school as it sounds, I think Le Tonk is the way to go. More forgiving than Schooner, smoother layout, easier to thin, dries and hardens well and colours nicely.


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## steve77 (Aug 5, 2010)

I am will be doing my brightwork over the winter. I think what's on there now (what's left of it anyway) is Cetol (based on the color). I plan on going with Epifaines. I'll have the time so I might as well do it "right".


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## StormBay (Sep 30, 2010)

I dont know why every one hates on Cetol so much. The older colors were orange, but the natural teak comes out really nice. Its sooo much easer and lasts sooo much longer than varnish.


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## SVTatia (May 7, 2007)

bljones said:


> No, it hasn't.
> It has been the shortcut preferred by those who can't do, or don't want to do a proper varnish schedule.
> The use of Cetol is usually excused with "I'd rather spend my time sailing...


Varnish schedule? WTF!
After 6 years in the tropics, Cetol is definitely the right excuse for me - two coats once a year, no sanding, that is all.
Take your varnished yacht down south and I mean South, then you'll understand these are not excuses and shortcuts. We would rather be sailing, or not?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

SVT, two coats a year is all you need to do to maintain varnish brightwork as well, IF you took the time the first time to lay on 6-8 properly thinned coats on a properly sanded surface. 

A varnish schedule is not something you put in your appointment book, it simply means the order of finishing the wood- number of coats, how each coat should be thinned, the sanding order (between which coats), etc., comprises the varnish schedule.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

bljones said:


> SVT, two coats a year is all you need to do to maintain varnish brightwork as well, IF you took the time the first time to lay on 6-8 properly thinned coats on a properly sanded surface.


That's the problem with varnish. Two coats a year. That means every spring and fall I'd need to sand, mask and apply it. Way too much time to spend on teak maintenance. Cetol only needs reapplication for maintenance once every 18 months to two years. That's 3-4x better performance than varnish.

Natural teak is the color that looks best; it's not orange, and not opaque. 3-4 thin coats of natural teak beneath 2-3 coats of gloss will not look orange or obscure the grain. I've had Cetol on for 8 years and it has not peeled or lifted.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Keel, two coats a year means two coats once a year, not one coat twice a year. So, how is 

"3-4 thin coats of natural teak beneath 2-3 coats of gloss " every 18 months any sort of time savings over 2 coats of varnish every 12 months? Doing the math, in three years I have had to lay on 2 coats three times, you have laid on 7 coats twice. I've put in 6 coats, you have done 14.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Your math is also incorrect. When you put down a base coat of natural teak you apply a minimum of 3 coats IIRC. If you want to clear coat for more durability you put two coats over that so its 5 coats initially, same as varnish. The 18month to two year maintenance coat can be a single coat. I usually put two thinner coats on instead of one, the clear flows better and is more workable with a little bit of thinning. Everything I've read says that varnish needs re coating every six months unless you are at a high latitude. I get two years out of Cetol here in San Francisco, you might get one year out of varnish here but I don't know. I've seen many slightly neglected varnish jobs suddenly start peeling at my marina; not the case with cetol if you heed the warning signs (dull finish, some light surface checking).

I'd say in 8 years I have about 12 coats total including base coat, but only had to re-coat 4 times instead of 8, and prepping is most of the work.


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

Make my teak grey and as little as possible. Some of you have applied six coats, others 14, while I applied none.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

I have seen weathered teak on another boat like mine and the coaming looked terrible with splits and rough/lifting surface. No thanks. I'd rather do a little maintenance every couple of years, than have to have it replaced for lack of upkeep. When the covers are made this winter I won't need to re-coat but once every 5 years or more. Teak decks should never be finished and for safety I did not finish the hatch cover but now I regret that decision, the teak is heavily worn. It will be easier to replace the wood than repair it to apply a finish at this point.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

KeelHaulin said:


> Your math is also incorrect. When you put down a base coat of natural teak you apply a minimum of 3 coats IIRC. If you want to clear coat for more durability you put two coats over that so its 5 coats initially, same as varnish. The 18month to two year maintenance coat can be a single coat. I usually put two thinner coats on instead of one, the clear flows better and is more workable with a little bit of thinning. Everything I've read says that varnish needs re coating every six months unless you are at a high latitude. I get two years out of Cetol here in San Francisco, you might get one year out of varnish here but I don't know. I've seen many slightly neglected varnish jobs suddenly start peeling at my marina; not the case with cetol if you heed the warning signs (dull finish, some light surface checking).
> 
> I'd say in 8 years I have about 12 coats total including base coat, but only had to re-coat 4 times instead of 8, and prepping is most of the work.


Keel, I don't disagree with you that no matter what you use, prep before coating is the key.

Okay, so my math is wrong...based on the math you gave me. NOW you say that you aren't doing "3-4 thin coats of natural teak beneath 2-3 coats of gloss " every " 18 months " now it is only 2 coats every 18 months.

Varnish takes 2 coats every 12 months. So I see a 50% maintenance time savings.

If you think "5 coats initially" is "the same as varnish", I understand why you think varnish isn't durable, and needs to be redone every 6 months. Varnish is only the most durable and beautiful finish available, IF you don't cut corners.

That is why Cetol was invented. 

The teak companionway trim (beside the drink holder on the port side of the companionway,hatch sliders and all of the cabin top hand rails were sanded and varnished in 2010. They are due for a recoat next spring. The door was built and varnished in 2011. 









So, four years and three years respectively without needing refinishing. I can live with that level of maintenance.

I would expect I would have to do it twice as often in a lower latitude... in other words, every 2 years.

The only wood trim I touch up annually on our boat is the rubrail, because it gets, er... rubbed.

So, to recap, two coats on the rubrail every year, two coats on the rest of the wood every 4 years.

You are cetoling every 18 months to 2 years.

So, hey, it looks like i was fudging the math as well, because i am not having to refinish ALL of my brightwork every year. just 50% of it. 

Keel I am not sure what books you have been reading that condemn varnish to a lifespan of only six months. Casey says 3-5 years for spar varnish, Interlux says 4 years, CLC says 3 years.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Sorry BL but I disagree on the statement that Cetol was developed to "cut corners". It was develoed to be more durable than varnish. If you improve durability you reduce the need for maintenance, that's that's the pay off. Everything I have read says that varnish needs to be maintained on a six month schedule; especially so in the tropics. I've seen beautiful varnish on one of the teak laden boats at my marina, except that the guy spent every minute of his spare time re-painting it. He'd get to the stern end, 2-3 months would go by and then the blue tape would appear again at the bow. The boat never left the slip (maybe once-twice per year).

similarly cetol does not require as much maintenance if it is not getting direct sun. My dropboards and trim around the companionway need less maintenance also, and they are not beneath a dodger. Just being on a vertical surface and oriented north-south gives enough sun evasion.


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## StormBay (Sep 30, 2010)

Maintenance aside, I honestly can not see that much difference between an amateur application of Cetol natural teak and an amateur application varnish even if the varnish is applied correctly. It just looks like a different band of varnish. No one at our marina that has seen our teak has guessed it was Cetol, and I put it on with the $0.75 brushes from home depot. Ours has been roasting away in the florida sun for 2 years and is showing no sings of quitting any time soon. We have acres of teak; it takes a full quart and a good half of a day for one coat. Its hard to see from the crappy cellphone pic but all of the ribboning shimmers in the light, Cetol does not obscure it al all.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I bought my boat with Cetol on it and quickly learned to hate it. It peels and flakes when it gives up and the only fix is to fully remove and start over.

I like varnish and did my cockpit table with it. My main objection to varnish is the 24 hr dry time between coats. Between schedules and weather, that makes it very impractical to do on the boat. The table could be brought home.

I like Bristol Finish for other brightwork on the boat. It's two part and dries enough to recoat inside an hour, so you can apply all 4 to 5 initial coats on the same day. Serious advantage. I think the finish looks the closest to varnish as well.


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## StormBay (Sep 30, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I bought my boat with Cetol on it and quickly learned to hate it. It peels and flakes when it gives up and the only fix is to fully remove and start over.


Varnish doesn't do the same if let go?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

StormBay said:


> Varnish doesn't do the same if let go?


Varnish will blister, but seems to stay a bit more plyable. Granted, varnish is very hard to repair, but that's why I use Bristol Finish elsewhere. Cetol got hard and brittle and flakey and horrible. I swear I still find cetol dust in little nooks and crannies and I've had it fully removed for three years.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> I like varnish and did my cockpit table with it. My main objection to varnish is the 24 hr dry time between coats. Between schedules and weather, that makes it very impractical to do on the boat.


 Most varnishes can be hot-coated, (er, more like lukewarm coated) inside the recommended drying time. I do a coat in the morning after the dew has lifted (if working outside) and a coat before dusk. This way 8 coats can be laid on in four days on stripped brightwork. annual 2 coat maintenance coating can be done in a day.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

KeelHaulin said:


> similarly cetol does not require as much maintenance if it is not getting direct sun. My dropboards and trim around the companionway need less maintenance also, and they are not beneath a dodger. Just being on a vertical surface and oriented north-south gives enough sun evasion.


 You're abosoutely correct- the trim pictured is under dodger....except for the six months of the year when the dodger is stowed away and it is exposed to snow and rain and sun and sub-zero temperatures.
and the wood that isn't covered isn't in need of maintenance any earlier than that which is dodger protected.

I agree, one can end up chasing brightwork maintenance, and varnishing a peeling ugly finish every year... and it is inevitably because the sanded surface wasn't wiped down before initial coating, there wasn't a full buildup of coats the first time the bare wood was coated, or the first coats were imporoperly thinned, hindering full saturation.

More work up front means less work later.


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

Hey StormBay , I really like your Cetol job with the natural . Makes me wish I started with the natural , as I use the Cetol light . And yes it's orange . I think I'm going to buy a can of the natural, thanks to your nice pics. Thanks!


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

LOL- Cetol recommends recoating annually:

http://www.yachtpaint.com/LiteratureCentre/cetol-marine-guide.pdf


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

StormBay said:


> Maintenance aside, I honestly can not see that much difference between an amateur application of Cetol natural teak and an amateur application varnish even if the varnish is applied correctly. It just looks like a different band of varnish. No one at our marina that has seen our teak has guessed it was Cetol, and I put it on with the $0.75 brushes from home depot. Ours has been roasting away in the florida sun for 2 years and is showing no sings of quitting any time soon. We have acres of teak; it takes a full quart and a good half of a day for one coat. Its hard to see from the crappy cellphone pic but all of the ribboning shimmers in the light, Cetol does not obscure it al all.


Looks great.
How many coats?


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## StormBay (Sep 30, 2010)

bljones said:


> Looks great.
> How many coats?


3 initial coats of natural teak followed by 1 maintenance coat of gloss every 7 to 10 months ( I aim for every 6 months as the sun down hear is brutal, but I haven't been on schedule yet) so 6 coats total in 2 years. The gloss is what really makes it pop compared to the semi matt finish of the plain natural teak.


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## StormBay (Sep 30, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> that's why I use Bristol Finish elsewhere. Cetol got hard and brittle and flakey and horrible. I swear I still find cetol dust in little nooks and crannies and I've had it fully removed for three years.


I also think bristol finish looks great and it should last a long time if done right, however don't expect it to come off any easer than Cetol if you ever have to refinish. removing-bristol-finish-from-teak-


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## StormBay (Sep 30, 2010)

Markwesti said:


> Hey StormBay , I really like your Cetol job with the natural . Makes me wish I started with the natural , as I use the Cetol light . And yes it's orange . I think I'm going to buy a can of the natural, thanks to your nice pics. Thanks!


Thanks! The natural teak is defiantly a better color compared to the older formulas.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

StormBay said:


> I also think bristol finish looks great and it should last a long time if done right, however don't expect it to come off any easer than Cetol if you ever have to refinish. removing-bristol-finish-from-teak-


Yup, stripping brightwork isn't fun. However, I find Bristol Finish will knock down with 60 grit and then finished with 100. If you want to try to remove a coating that is nuclear proof, try to sand Interlux Perfection Plus. Hard as nails. This two part coating is incredibly hard, but is also so toxic when applied, you may not live long enough to need to remove it. 

That link tells a story of it failing. Having tons of experience with this, I will attest that any coating failure is always pilot error. I've sworn it wasn't me at times, until I finally figure out what I was doing wrong.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Bristol finish doesn't like sharp corners or edges.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Nothing likes an edge that water might get under. Its the number 1 cause of brightwork failure. I can't say I've notice BF any tougher than any other finish on sharp corners. None are great.


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## hriehl1 (Aug 8, 2007)

The only threads more entertaining than varnish are about anchors.

I will not claim one is better than the other... they have different merits; choose your medicine. Varnish (generally) requires more coats, sanding between coats, is finicky to apply and needs more frequent attention... but it does look better. Cetol takes less work (no sanding between coats is BIG), is more forgiving to apply and generally more durable but does not match varnish for lustre. [I cite several Practical Sailor studies for claims that Cetol is more durable.]

Having used varnish on a previous boat, I do believe it is a fair statement that Cetol may be an aesthetic compromise but takes WAYYY less time to apply and maintain.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

who says you have to sand varnish between coats? This is one of the big myths of brightwork. if you are re-coating inside of 24 hours, there is no sanding needed, unless you have finish imperfections, like runs, drips, bubbles, etc.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

hriehl1 said:


> [I cite several Practical Sailor studies for claims that Cetol is more durable.]


Like this one?:
Exterior Wood Finish Test Two-year Update - Practical Sailor Article

"....The Cetol Natural (with gloss) test panel fell from a Good coating integrity six months ago to being dropped from testing...."

"...As this test has shown, when it comes to long-lasting protection and gloss, two-part varnishes just can't be beat. They may be a pain to apply-and should you let the coating fail, you had better invest in a heat gun-but their durability is unmatched...."


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## hriehl1 (Aug 8, 2007)

From Practical Sailor, September 2011, at the 2-year mark of their coatings test.

"The Cetol products are still at the head of the pack, albeit a somewhat mangy-looking pack. The cloudy, opaque look of the Cetol Marine and Marine Light products may not appeal to everyone, but the fact they’ve maintained their color for more than a year is a good example that higher-solids finishes tend to offer better UV protection.

The Cetol Natural (with gloss) test panel fell from a Good coating integrity six months ago to being dropped from testing. Its performance mirrors what we’ve seen in the field: Give it a little loving once a year with a scrubby pad and a fresh coat, and it’ll last the long haul."

Yes, the 2-part varnishes were the stars of the class, and one can look down one's nose at Cetol's aesthetics. But it gives good protection with far less effort than varnish.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

But it's not FAR less effort. that's my point. 
Cetol does have an advantage- it dries faster. So, you can do your two annual coats in a single morning, rather than having to do one coat of varnish in the morning and one in the evening.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

hriehl1 said:


> The only threads more entertaining than varnish are about anchors.


 On this we agree. maybe the ultimate entertainment thread is "What anchor should i use to hold the best bluewater boat I can find for under $5000 in one place so that I can refinish the brightwork while my bulldog watches for pirates with a gun. Oh, and what boat, gun, coating and beer should I buy?"


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

My Cetol can says 24 hours between coats; never tried 2 coats in 1 morning.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

I'd refrain from putting down 2 coats of Cetol in one day, the solvents may not escape the first coat quickly enough causing problems with the second coat. In fact 24 hours might not be enough in cool climates, I put down a second coat yesterday afternoon and in spots where the first coat was a little heavy I got some wrinkles in the second coat. I'm going to wait a week, wet sand and put one more on.

In regards to two part varnishes, I would tend to agree on their superiority, last winter I put in hardwood floors at home and used an acid curing conversion varnish called Glitsa. Awesome stuff but special safety precautions required (acid absorbing niosh cartridges, pilot lights off, etc). Two parts are in another category than standard spar varnish, but also much more finicky than single stage finishes.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Seaduction said:


> My Cetol can says 24 hours between coats; never tried 2 coats in 1 morning.


Don't. Not many products out there allow "multi-coating" and Cetol isn't one of them.

Uroxsys is one system that does and produces an amazing finish also, but it's horrendously expensive.


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## hriehl1 (Aug 8, 2007)

Agreed... that would be the ultimate entertaining thread... but wait... it must be posted by one who's been lurking on the site and has never sailed before.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Um, you forgot to add the discussion about rebedding - Since I'm going to be redoing the finish on everything, I'm also going to rebed the brightwork. I'm planing on use silicone caulk because everybody says not to buy "marine" versions of stuff since it's just overpriced BS. Although, I've heard good things about something called 5200, and might use that instead.


Back to the original point of the thread...I've used Cetol, and I've done 8-coat varnish finishes. I did Cetol on the hatch boards on my old boat, and varnish on this one. I'm not thrilled with the way the varnish is holding up. Maybe its the brand, and maybe I'm just being rougher with them this year, but the varnish is showing much more wear than the Cetol versions did. I'm also dreading refinishing the varnish. That being said, I think Cetol is easier to apply, especially for someone who is new and might be intimidated by woodwork. I do prefer the look of the varnish, but it's not such a huge difference that I'd steer someone away from Cetol.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jimgo said:


> Um, you forgot to add the discussion about rebedding - Since I'm going to be redoing the finish on everything, I'm also going to rebed the brightwork. I'm planing on use silicone caulk because everybody says not to buy "marine" versions of stuff since it's just overpriced BS. Although, I've heard good things about something called 5200, and might use that instead.......


Jim, what exactly are you rebedding? I would not think of 5200 as caulk, but as permanent, very permanent, glue. You will likely have to break the item to get it off again.

I've caulked so much stuff over the years, that I'm probably personally responsible for at least one 3M executive bonus payout. However, it doesn't last as long as more modern solutions. Particularly, for hardware that is stressed, like handholds. I'm a convert to butyl tape.

Re-Bedding Deck Hardware Photo Gallery by Compass Marine at pbase.com


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Minne, I was kidding. I was going along with BLJones' comment about the most interesting thread. I'm a fan of butyl (ordered from Main Sail), though I've also use Life Seal for some projects, too. I know to essentially stay away from 5200 (a bit of an exaggeration) for most of my projects.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jimgo said:


> Minne, I was kidding. I was going along with BLJones' comment about the most interesting thread.......


Right over my head. Sorry.

Hey, it was before 5am and you didn't quote the post you were replying to.


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## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

This my friends is Interlux Schooner 92, a *Phenolic* varnish, the varnish traditionally used for the finest bright work. Click on it for a better view.
Dick


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Epiphanes varnish on a cockpit table leaf. 10 coats. Nothing like it.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Minne, next time you take a picture of a nearly mirror-smooth surface, could you get a cuter model to pose in the pic?


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Epiphanes varnish on a cockpit table leaf. 10 coats. Nothing like it.


I'd agree with that.. although, having used both International's "Schooner Tropical" (presumably the same as the Interlux stuff), Epiphanes and Uroxsys (in increasing order of cost!) I'd have to say that the more expensive the product the better it is. Epiphanes is really very good, but the Uroxsys stuff (if you can get it) is easier to use, longer lasting and at least as nice to look at.

..but, now, being tired of the poor shelf-life of varnishes in general and no longer being willing to watch $$$ worth of varnish go off in the tin, I now just use the cheap stuff and go sailing.


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