# Sailing SW Florida / Cuba



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

As things open up in Cuba I would like to sail over to Cuba but am worried about government regulations on spending money and so forth. Where can I get detailed info on these matters?


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## JDSails (Aug 28, 2000)

Go to www.HavanaCup.com for all details. I am a 3 trip veteran.


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## DaveSchaefer (Aug 29, 2000)

I''m currently working on a story on this topic for a boating magazine. My book, Sailing to Hemingway''s Cuba, will be out next month from Sheridan House...spent a month at Marina Hemingway near Havana.
For web info: www.ustreas.gov/ofac/info.html (you will need Adobe Acrobat to download materials), or www.state.gov/www/regions/wha/cuba/
or fax-back service, 1-202-622-0077


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## DaveSchaefer (Aug 29, 2000)

For a magazine story, I''m look for case histories of boaters who have been fined or otherwise prosecuted by Treasury for violating the embargo by sailing to Cuba.


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## JDSails (Aug 28, 2000)

Dave,
Where is your homeport and boat name?
perhaps we have met..There are a few people who have met fines by US... St. Petersburg should be on your list of marinas to gather info...


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## DaveSchaefer (Aug 29, 2000)

The boat is an Endeavour 32, "Dream Weaver" out of Burlington, Vermont. I have been in touch with ST. Pete and have included a report on the "Cease and desist" order to organizers of Tampa-Havana race. Also talking to US Treasury Public Affairs for their point of view, case histories, etc. Any stories? Your boat? I was headed down west coast of Florida from Fort Myers to Marathon in Feb. 99.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Waverider,
I have not been to Cuba, but can tell you that many people push to Key West or the Tortugas (preferably the Tortugas), overnight there, then punch across. If I am not mistaken, from the Tortugas to Cuba is only 60-61 miles... so it is closer than the mainland of the US. 

If you are a US Citizen, I would probably not make that run while Bush is in office. The immigration is very lax in Fort Myers ( I have only seen a Customs boat there once), but I have been warned the US tracks boats in and out of Cuba. I do not know if it is true. 

It is really a crock. I do not see the point of an embargo against a country when the rest of the world does not follow suit. Either get the rest of the world involved or try another avenue... but enough of my political chat.

PS The tortugas are beautiful and worth the stop. Better than Key West if you like beauty and seclusion... but I guess you would miss CatMan if you don't go to Key West!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I wouldn't expect any lifting of restrictions on sailing to Cuba after the President leaves office. There was none under previous administrations. My suggestion is to expect consequences if you sail to Cuba and are caught.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

TXS-Alamo,

Nah. Fidel is just waiting until Bush leaves before he dies. The final crusade, HAHA. Of course, I have heard his brother or whatever is even worse than he is. 

TXS - You were a judge, correct? You ever precide over anything like that?


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Castro is a brutal dictator and his brother is no better. You are consorting with the enemy if you go there and regardless of what the rest of the world does, you are violating our law if you spend ANY $$ there. Any American who goes there in violation of our laws should be both ashamed and prosecuted.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Actually you are incorrect. The US government allows visits and spending money in Cuba under certain circumstances. Cuban Americans bring more US money into Cuba than anyone else. I visited and did so legally, notified the Coast Guard, etc.

As far as brutality is concerned, it seems to me that while Fidel Castro is not saint, I believe George W. is responsible for the death of more innocent people and that number is still growing. If brutal dictatorships is a criteria, I guess we shouldn't be trading with China. Vietnam, a country where we fought, died and lost to communism is okay now that they allow Coca Cola in. Guess who's one of their biggest trading partners? The good old USA. Let's not get too hypocritical. The Cuba embargo is there to ensure that sure Florida votes Republican. If I were a Republican, I wouldn't go to Cuba either.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

There are three reasons the US will not recognize Cuba.
The Mafia won't let them - the Mafia were the biggest looser when Cuba nationized everything. No American lives have been lost in Cuba.
They have a higher literacy rate.
They have better medical care.
A few years ago Bush decreed that anyone even planning to go to Cuba could be boarded and charged and have their boat confiscated. This includes foreign registered vessels as well. I've also read that even those who have travelled to Cuba with the proper authorization were all subject to an IRS audit.
While I agree with Cam that you should not break the law, I certainly do not support the US government's refusal to remove the embargo with regard to Cuba. The embargo was not removed during Clinton's presidency, so the arguement that it is so Florida will vote Repubican would seem incorrect. The State of Florida is certainly interested in keeping the embargo because of the effect on tourism but Florida is not the only state in the union. There has to be another reason and unless someone can come up with compelling arguements for some other theory I'm sticking to the Mafia theory.
Regardless, Sailsman10, be very careful about going to Cuba. If you believe that hell hath no fury like a women scorned, try pissing off the US government - you ain't seen nothin yet.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Kenshu...That's it...change the subject and blame it on Bush. As to China/Viet...hell no we shouldn't be trading with them either but it is legal and hypocritical I agree. 
EBS...you need a history lesson. Maybe Hillary will lift that embargo...her husband didn't. The mafia doesn't care about Castro...it is just that he knows the truth about their involvement in the JFK assasination. <grin> As to the cuban heath care system...it is NOT better...it is quite good however (and cheap) but they get those results by doing away with the obesity problem there! <grin again> For really serious stuff you are still way better off getting treated in the USA. For general population health with limited resources they do a great job. Actual gross stats:

Table 1. Comparison of Health Statistics and Gross National Product Cuba vs United States 
Life Expectancy at Birth Cuba 76.3 
Maternal Mortality (per 100,000 live births) Cuba 34.1 
Infant Mortality (per 1,000 live births) Cuba 7.2 
Gross National Product per Capita (US$) Cuba 2,2704 
United States 77.2 7.1 7.2 & 31,910 on same stats respectively

Cubans are smart, hard working vibrant people as they've proved in southern FL...This isn't about them...it is about breaking our laws ratified by presidents and congresses for 40+ years to satisfy selfish desires. If you want to visit a brutal dictatorship...go to Venezuela...it's still legal!!


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Where is my history wrong? 
Castro as a brutal dictator whats your arguement that he is - unless you mean the vernacular "aweful" or "bad".
"The Mafia does not care about Castro" but they do care that he took away all their casinos and whore houses and the US government also knows about the Mafia's JFK involvement - that's the reason this and previous administrations will not recognize Cuba until they have a free market system.
As far has the health care system it was just a jibe at the only country in the G-7 that doesn't have universal health care with two thirds of its citizens without proprer health care coverage. The statistics you cite show how favourably the Cuban health care system compares. Now compare those to every other country in the Caribbean and you'll see that Castro is not doing such a "brutal" job. 
Cam regardless of our political differences I stand with you when you advise Sailman not to go to Cuba and I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to go to Venezuela but that's a whole other story.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

For the record, I recognize the various ethnic, political and economic interest groups which oppose removal of the embargo. My own agenda is simply that Castro needs to go (just as Batista needed to go) and the Cuban people deserve the freedom they clearly want so badly. 
As to historic Castro brutality try:
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/castro.thwart.html
*or maybe those conservative lackeys at Amnesty International would be more to your liking:*
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003
******
...and I was commenting *favorably* on Cuba's overall health care record...just disputing that it is better than the USA as stated. One reason their infant mortality rivals ours is that ours is so bad due to drug babies...not many such problems in Cuba!

Finally... on US health care system vs. the rest of G-7. That is a long and involved discussion not really appropriate here or even on topic. You might guess that I am not a proponent of gov't health care systems...and I am not. It is nevertheless a disgrace that 40% (not 2/3) of WORKING Families (not everyone)...does not have health care. Employers should be required to provide a plan meeting certain criterea and WORKERS should be required to buy in rather than buying big screen TV's and Nintendo's. Mitt Romney seems to have the right idea in Massachussetts. Worth a look if you are interested. I wonder if his plan will apply to illegal aliens as well since they seem to be doing a pretty good job of putting hospitals out of business.

Have i offended everyone here yet? <grin> Anyway EBS...suppose we'll just have to disagree on some political stuff but appreciate the support on obeying the law.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"A presidential proclamation issued in February empowers the government to seize any vessel in U.S. waters that officials think may be going to Cuba. "

From Sailing Magazine, at http://www.sailingmagazine.net/fullby0704.html

If Cuba is such a great place to live...I guess all the Cubans who venture the semi-suicidal escape to the US must just be psychos. And all the Cuban exiles in Miami who aren't smart enough to go back, must be too dumb to know how bad they've got it. Who'd have thought so many delusional people could all be found in the same place.

Sailsman, your best bet is to write--not just email--the US Department of State, and request a written reply.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

I have to disagree with hellosailor, Sailsman your best bet is to not go to Cuba until the embargo is lifted or else face persecution from your own government.
To respect the intention of this forum I will not comment further on Cuban/US relations.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Politics aside; everyone would have to agree that it is risky to sail to Cuba if you're an American and plan to return to he US. Even if you went, it can be very difficult to move from port to port due to a confusing, inconsistent process. My experience there was that it is definitively a police state where human rights are not respected. I don't see anything changing when Castro dies. Raul will most likely be just as bad without the charisma.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

ebs, if you are disagreeing with me, how or when did I recommend going there? Doesn't seem that I did. At all.

Waverider is lucky, all he has to worry about is being boarded and imprisoned by the *Cuban* coastal patrols, for entering without a permit.<G>


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## AlwaysFORSAIL (Nov 30, 2006)

*Cuba*

There are a few illegal options to sail to Cuba.

Hemingway seems to be the favorite port which has an American Interests Office who will photograph your boat. My last info, April, 2006, the American cruisers who use that port have taped over boat names and registration so they do not get nasty notes from Uncle Sam.

There is a marina east of Hemingway that some find to be easier to get to from Florida due to the Gulf Stream. I forgot the name but it is in the cruising guide. Another, on the SW end of Cuba is also a popular stop before heading off to Mexico or Belize. Some cruisers think it is safer to hit a port that is legal befor ereturning to the States.

Also, there is a form that the Coast Guard will fax to you for permission to sail through a war zone. They ask all the pertinent info on you and your plans to sail through the restricted waters north of Cuba. it is no big deal but do not mistake this for permission to sail to Cuba.

All that know who have been , most have gone to Hemingway, have had a great time and none have been notified by the US that they have been charged with treason and owe fines. I know several cruisers who have been in the past few years and, while the stories abound of those who have been fined, none have been fined. Two have been stopped by the Coast Guard for a routine check/boarding.

You might also check with the CMCS sailing club in Ft Myers for other opinions.

Good Luck.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Alway...Au Contraire...fines have and continue to be levied...in 2002 this appeared in cruising world. "Michael" had sailed his boat to Cuba and received a $7500 fine....

*Bring On the Lawyers
For years, the Center for Constitutional Rights in New York City (www.ccr-ny.org) has accepted Cuban travel cases like Michael's, but a recent backlog of more than 400 such cases became so heavy it began referring people elsewhere.

Whole article: http://www.cruisingworld.com/article.jsp?ID=200880&typeID=419&catID=0
*


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Cuban Cruising Guide*

I found Nigel Calder's _Cuba: A Cruising Guide_ an excellent source of information, although it may be somewhat dated now. He is not an American so that may make it even more relevant for you.

I left from Bahia Honda in the Keys mid morning and arrived at Veradero early the next morning (escorted by the friendly Cuban navy). We cleared at Veradero and found the process very easy. Everyone was courteous and cooperative. The marina was very nice and very deserted. I bought charts from Bluewater prior to my departure but found them somewhat sketchy on detail (I think they were Soviet). At the time they were the best available and may still be.

If I weren't a US citizen, I would go in a heartbeat.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Hellosailor, I did not mean to imply you were condoning or recommending a trip to Cuba. I was just suggesting that his BEST BET was to forget about going to Cuba at this time and don't bother writing the State Department.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Waverider,

I do not want to sound "mean" when I say this. For those that have read my threads in the past, please understand it is not my style at all. But I would not make "light" of visiting Cuba. I am sure you will be fine and they will love the money. They are not going to mess with a Canadian... they even love Americans. But being as you are Canadian and probably have not known a lot of Cubans that risked their lives to cross the stream in a boat I would not use as a Dink in a lake, I would say be thoughtful of a small nation that has moved to Florida to escape unimaginable cruelty. 

I have known many Cubans, and the name of Castro is synonimous with Satan (to use Chavez' line). To compare him to Bush, hate Bush or not, is so far off base I cannot even comment further. 

Don't ask an American what happened... ask a Cuban that has been exiled from their home. And PS, when you visit Cuba and give them your money, you keep that oppression alive. I would love to go to Cuba, and could have coutless times. My reason for not going had less to do with the rules imposed by my country as supporting a regime of oppression and cruelty. Again, don't take my word for it... ask a Cuban in Florida. But I would not speak highly of Castro around them if you value your life, Canadian or AMerican.

- CD

PS I told you earlier in the thread how the people I know have made Cuba. Fort Myers, then Tortugas, then across the stream. 121 miles offshore to Tortugas, I think Cuba is 61 south of that. Others may have other suggestions.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Waverider Be advised that according to the article in Sail Magazine, referred to in Hellosailors post above, the regulations apply to you as well. If you are going to go to Cuba do not advertise it and come back via some other country like the Bahamas. The US government takes very seriously trading with the enemy, whether you agree or not and the consequences are severe. Don't piss them off.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Cruisingdad said:


> TXS-Alamo,
> 
> Nah. Fidel is just waiting until Bush leaves before he dies. The final crusade, HAHA. Of course, I have heard his brother or whatever is even worse than he is.
> 
> TXS - You were a judge, correct? You ever precide over anything like that?


No, just over 280+ jury trials on Capital murder, regular murder, rape, armed robbery and a host of other felonies. Admiralty and International Law are all in the lap of the federal zorro suits. 
As to Waverider's comments on the US and Bush, I wonder why no one ever thinks of Canada as an important country? Could it be that they stand for nothing?


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

TXS, what are you trying to say? 
Don't show your ignorance when it comes to world politics. US education is sorrily lacking on anything going on outside its borders. Its would be best if you kept your erroneous ideas to yourself than prove how badly you have been eduacated. 

As for waverunner he's a Leaf fan - enough said. Go Sens Go


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## yotphix (Aug 18, 2006)

Hey Txs. One of the many great things about being Canadian is that you don't really need to care what some guy from Texas thinks or doesn't think about your country. You just know that it is a great country and that it truly stands for many of the things that America puports to. You should visit sometime if the boss will let you!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

*Waverider*

(I apologize in advance for the many misspellings & the multiple postings. I wanted to make sure that he got it, though...)

Waverider,

I am amazed. I am really amazed at some of the the things you have said. Why do you say things like that?

It is obvious to me that you have the maturity level of someone about 15 years old. I have not cruised as much as many people on this forum, but quite a bit. The one common theme we all have had is the ability to get together and have fun. We don't see nationalities or scream about George Bush, or whatever. I love my country. It does have problems, many of them. But let me tell you one thing about the typical AMerican you so quickly have addressed as worthless & uneducated, we care for people and we try to do the right thing. THe right thing does not always turn out correctly. The right thing is not always easy. But better to try and fail than never to try at all. Right now, as we speak, there are Americans losing their lives or being seriously wounded in a country that is not theirs, for a people that I am not sure even care about them (or each other). To even insinuate that they (troops) are over there doing mass murder is Bullshit (excuses my language). I do not doubt that there are a lot of special interst groups/people with hidden agendas - what war has not had them? But 99.99% of AMericans and I would wager 100% of the troops are over there because they believe in what they are doing to try and help others. They have integrity and care for human life. I support our soldiers other there 110% - regarless of GB or whether the war can ever be won. Any of you soldiers (whether British, Aussie, or any other nationality and especially AMERICAN) reading this, thank you for what you do. And understand one more thing: I did not say I want the war or George Bush.

I love Canadians, and Canada, and Cuba. I have met some awesome people in Jamaica, Brazil, and sooo many other countries... and never once have any of them even slightly shared the anamosity you have. You embarrass your self and you embarrass your country. America and Canada have been friends for a very long time.

The problem with the internet is that people will say things here that they would NEVER say in person. As for you, Waverider, let me just tell you that you will be the most lonely person in the most crowded anchorage. Read this very carefully, if you read nothing else: *Cruising is about understanding different people and differnet cultures and coming closer to nature and what life really is all about.* That is what I have tried to instill in my children, and still do. Too bad you did not learn that. Maybe there is still time... or it will be the quickest cruise you ever heard of. ANd if you hate my coutry and my people sooooo much, than don't use our technology, don't cross our borders, and stay out of our waters. Sound inconvenient? Too freaking bad. You can sail to Cuba by way of the North Pole for all I care. Tell Hugo Chavez hello on your way through.

I have spent wayyyyyy too much time on this forum when I could have been doing other things with my kids and wife or spending it just for myself. *I did it because I have tried to help people & because I care about other people and cruisers in general. * We share a common theme and the one thing I have always loved about sailors is thier lack of recognition of governments as what defines a country & its people. That concept, Waverider, is obviously beyond your comprehension too.

You have offended me and coutless others to be sure... and I bet they are not all American. Quite candidly, if you were one of my kids and I caught you writing some crap like you have in this and other threads, you would get a really good spanking and get grounded until you came to appreciate other people and other cultures. WHy you think it is funny to intentionally try and hurt people is beyond me. It is against anything I have ever seen in sailing or cruising.

That being said, enough time here. After re-reading through this and becoming increasingly frustrated that any of the information I have ever typed could help someone like you, l think I will start spending more time with my family and espcially my kids. Maybe I will let them re-read some of the things you have wrote so that they might learn how not to act... but then again, I think they have already learned most of that. I am done with Sailnet for a while, maybe longer.

Regards,

- CD

PS Waverider, if you are a minor, as I suspect, I do apologize about the small profanity... but that is it. Change your life and see if you can find a friend.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Good post CD hope we don't loose you even for a little while. We need you on this forum for the help you give.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I read recently that Fidel Castro is among the richest men in the entire world. Wonder how & why?


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## CDRA (Feb 5, 2006)

Castro does not have much longer to live and it does not matter how rich anyone is, we all end up the same, worm food.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

ebs001,

Please remember that ad hominim attacks are not really refutation of the argument but are instead revelations of the lack of ability to logically respond to the subject matter of the argument.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

xort said:


> I read recently that Fidel Castro is among the richest men in the entire world. Wonder how & why?


Forbes Magazine annually reports on the world's riches people. Their estimate of Castro's wealth seems a bit spurious and the article below reflects:

_In a story published Tuesday about the fortunes of rulers and heads-of-state, Forbes estimated the communist leader's net worth at $550 million, but acknowledged "these estimates are more art than science."_
_"In the past, we have relied on a percentage of Cuba's gross domestic product to estimate Fidel Castro's fortune," the article stated. "This year we have used more traditional valuation methods, comparing state-owned assets Castro is assumed to control with comparable publicly traded companies."_
_The magazine said Castro "derives his fortune from a web of state-owned businesses," including a convention center and retail and pharmaceutical businesses._

I think Forbes takes the position the if Castro is the state the wealth of the state is his.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

TXS The first part of your earlier post I simply did not understand and the second part of your post is not worthy of comment (I apologize for my previous comment) because it's really not worthy of you.


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