# Why West Marine pi$$es me off



## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

I needed to buy some new battery cable today, so I stopped by the closest West Marine. I'm looking at the rack of spools of marine electric cable and one of the two sales people in the store comes by and asks If I need help. "Yes, can I get six feet of that #4 black battery cable? Oh, and is that tinned?", I say, as I try looking the cut end of the wire at almost arms length because I have the wrong glasses on. Blank look on her face, "Is it tin wire? I think it's copper." "No, _tinned_ wire," I say, "Is the wire _tinned_?" She turns to the only other employee in the store (presumably the person nominally in charge; who we can see just beyond the end of the aisle, at the register) and asks, "Is this stuff tinned? "What's that mean?" comes the reply. I explain the rather exotic concept of tinned marine electrical wire as one of them looks up the item in the store Bible, er, the WM catalog. The holy tome confirms that, lo and behold, it is tinned.

Is it asking too much to expect someone working at West Marine to have a passing knowledge of the stuff they carry?

BTW, these weren't kids. They were both at least in their forties, and I can recall seeing the gal in charge at that store for quite some time. So it's not like a just happened to catch a couple of trainees.


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## Chadfunk48 (Jun 8, 2006)

Unless you want the prices to go up even HIGHER for the extra training that they would have to receive on all the different items in the store I would just be happy they had what you needed... 
Also, I had the unfortunate experience of working at West Marine for three summers while I was in college and I've never heard that term before. It is nice to know now why it is "marine" wire and not just regular wire


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

SlowButSteady said:


> Is it asking too much to expect someone working at West Marine to have a passing knowledge of the stuff they carry?


Yes. It is asking too much. 
When stuff like that happens to me, I take the opportunity to educate them while assuming that there are most likely things that they know a lot about and about which I'm ignorant. I don't expect everyone I deal with to be experts. It's nice when they are, but I usually double check their information anyway. 
I don't expect everyone I deal with at Home Depot to know everything about all the products they sell. That would be silly.

The ladies were probably a couple of very nice girls who needed a job and had some connection with sailing. My wife was one of those years ago. I would venture to say that when she first started out working for WM she didn't know about tinned wire. She probably didn't know the difference between 304 and 316 stainless steel or how to interface a gps with a autopilot. But she would have been happy to learn about it from a gracious and patient customer. 

Your expectations are unreasonable in my opinion.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

... and that is why I support my local chandlery rather than the Walmart of boating. Of course I always check their prices and I'm not afraid to ask for the same price elsewhere. I have never failed to have the little guy match West Marine unless it's some sort of internet only special.

Defender is a good place that carries just about everything, ships, and has a people there who know what they are talking about.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

They were in shock that someone would think of buying it there? No really, to expect knowledge is just wrong, lol

This is best place to buy wire according to most boat owners here. 
Genuinedealz > Marine Wire, Boat Wire, Boat Cable, Marine Grade $1.97 ft
-----
WM = 4 Gauge Battery Cable, Black, $2.99 ft


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

I dunno... I love west marine... when Im bored or pissed off at something, I go in there and spend $$$ for boat crap I probably never really needed. Kinda like a woman who buys new heels when shes depressed. I suppose its therapeutic. I think I've even commited their 2012 catalog to memory by now.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

God, we love WM - we whore that place on a weekly basis via their price match guarantee and _less_ than knowledgeable staff. They will match Amazon if it's a direct ship from Amazon, plus match "brick and mortar" businesses prices. It's awesome. If you're quick witted, you can often get them to match online store prices as well... 

Just last week I bought a roll of 1" 3M grip tape (WM price $2.79 per foot), I got it for .44 c per foot instead... pulled it right up on my phone right there in the aisle before heading up to the register..

If they didn't match Bolt Depot prices (for example), I'd have had to use gum to stick my boat together after the first six months of the refit... I can't even begin to tell you how much we have saved by price matching every last item we have bought from there. For this reason alone I never get mad at the lack of knowledgeable or helpful staff... and actually the WM in Annapolis has some reasonably knowledgeable staff, however that store is an anomaly..


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Yes I kind of think its too much to expect someone working in a retail store like WM to know everything about everything they stock. It would be nice if they had a few folks with expertise in SOMETHING (rigging, electronics, etc) in the store, but given the number of items they stock there is no way I'd expect anyone to know the details on every product.

What would like is a readiness to immediately admit what they don't know and offer to look it up. Nothing is worse than someone that doesn't know yet is willing to give advice anyway.

WM catches a lot of flack, but they have stores where I sail, and there are some products I want to see in person so I'll support them when I can.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

At least they didn't try to fake a knowledge they didn't have. I get your frustration but when I'm in those situations, I try to educate the salesperson (if they're open to it and I know what I'm talking about) so that he or she isn't caught out the next time. 

We're all human.

Whenever possible I try to do some research and know exactly what I want before I go into a store mostly because I hate shopping (the UPS guy gets a hefty holiday bonus from us) and I hate having salespeople hover over me.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

SlowButSteady said:


> I needed to buy some new battery cable today, so I stopped by the closest West Marine. I'm looking at the rack of spools of marine electric cable and one of the two sales people in the store comes by and asks If I need help. "Yes, can I get six feet of that #4 black battery cable? Oh, and is that tinned?", I say, as I try looking the cut end of the wire at almost arms length because I have the wrong glasses on. Blank look on her face, "Is it tin wire? I think it's copper." "No, _tinned_ wire," I say, "Is the wire _tinned_?" She turns to the only other employee in the store (presumably the person nominally in charge; who we can see just beyond the end of the aisle, at the register) and asks, "Is this stuff tinned? "What's that mean?" comes the reply. I explain the rather exotic concept of tinned marine electrical wire as one of them looks up the item in the store Bible, er, the WM catalog. The holy tome confirms that, lo and behold, it is tinned.
> 
> Is it asking too much to expect someone working at West Marine to have a passing knowledge of the stuff they carry?
> 
> BTW, these weren't kids. They were both at least in their forties, and I can recall seeing the gal in charge at that store for quite some time. So it's not like a just happened to catch a couple of trainees.


Come on now SBS - do YOU know every detail of every piece of electronic hardware in one of those stores? I suspect you'd be just as pi$$ed if you were looking at a chart plotter and they didn't talk like a factory tech. Tinned wire is kind of exotic - those of us who do our own work know about it but store clerks???


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## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*West Marine is what you make it........*

"Is it asking too much to expect someone working at West Marine to have a passing knowledge of the stuff they carry?"

Of course not. It should be full of happy, knowledgeable staff. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Look at those associates name badges, I bet that they were both Tech 15. They should have known that WM ONLY stocks tinned electrical wire. I guarantee they answered a question specifically on tinned wire in the Electrical exam. The fact that 95% of boat owners don't know how or what having tinned wire does to the wire, in the marine environment, is the issue. The question went right over their heads.

Obviously you knew about tinned wire. I suspect that you also knew that the WM Wire was tinned. There is generally a big sign over the wire stating the fact. At the price charged it should be gilded. If you are going to get peed off in every retail outlet because of lack of staff knowledge you are on a hiding to nothing.

Do your research, price match, choose your associate (the cranky one, with knarley hands from running wire and getting cut by fiberglass is generally a good one to ask) and share knowledge. As I tell people "this is a boat store, there is really nothing here that should upset you. Its not like we're doing kidney transplants".

And yes, I'm a part time WM associate.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Um, guys. That there is such a thing as tinned marine wire isn't exactly some sort of obscure bit of arcane "old-guy" knowledge. I find it pretty amazing that anyone could hang around a marine chandlery 20, 30, or 40 hours a week for months, perhaps even years, without becoming at least a little savvy about boat hardware.


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## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*Then why didn't you know....*

a quick look at the cut ends would tell you. Methinks you protest too much.


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## tomperanteau (Jun 4, 2009)

WM and I have a love/hate relationship. They are indispensable, but often pricier than the competition. In their defense, they do price match.

I went to a West Marine close to my marina one day, after many visits spending thousands of dollars, and wanted to buy a few small things that included Velcro. I asked two people where I might find it. One, rather flippantly, pointed off in the distance and stated, "on that side of the store". The other looked up and told me it was on an end cap "over there". Neither bothered to actually let me know where it was with any accuracy, so I had to go to a third employee.

Never had a bad time in that store before, but I thought I should let management know. One person, and fine, they were having a bad day. Two and perhaps there's an attitude problem. 

I wrote a long letter to management at their central office. Not too damning, but just pointing out the facts. Upon my next visit, one of the people were not around anymore and the other was all over the customers, being polite and helpful. Problem solved.

Funny thing is that the third employee that helped me is a live-aboard at my marina and works there part-time, has always helped me and gone out of his way to be nice. I'm sure he is not a man of much means, and is a bit older, so he is probably thankful to have the work.

Those are the employees you want in your business. The ones that are grateful and the ones that understand what they might be doing wrong, and correct it. The others weed themselves out eventually.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

gtod25 said:


> "Is it asking too much to expect someone working at West Marine to have a passing knowledge of the stuff they carry?"
> 
> Of course not. It should be full of happy, knowledgeable staff. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Look at those associates name badges, I bet that they were both Tech 15. They should have known that WM ONLY stocks tinned electrical wire. I guarantee they answered a question specifically on tinned wire in the Electrical exam. The fact that 95% of boat owners don't know how or what having tinned wire does to the wire, in the marine environment, is the issue. The question went right over their heads.
> 
> ...


Dude, there appeared to be exactly two employees in the store. NEITHER one of them seemed to have ever heard of tinned wire. I didn't just catch one person on a bad day, I found a marine chandlery devoid of anyone who could answer a pretty basic question about a pretty basic item. Should I also not expect anyone in a WM store to know the difference between stainless steel and bronze? Should I not expect them to know the difference between three-strand and braided rope? Should I not expect them to know the difference between 6V and 12V batteries?

Don't try to pass off the blame on boat owners who don't know something, THEY DON'T WORK IN A MARINE CHANDLERY. Maybe instead of "Tech 15", or whatever the f__k the name tags said, WM staff should just all go by the title "Almost Clueless Clerk"**, in flashing LED lights. That might avoid any confusion unsuspecting customers might have when they walk into a store. After all, we wouldn't want a _customer_ to be under the illusion that a store _employee_ might know SOMETHING about that store's merchandise (oddly enough, I can remember a time when customers could expect an employee of such a store to know far more the customers about the store's stock).

I know damned well that I could have saved a few bucks by ordering the wire and lugs on-line (although, by the time shipping gets tacked on the difference probably wouldn't have been enough to buy an McLunch). I went to WM because I unexpectedly had the afternoon free and decided to get a little project done today, rather than put it off for another week or two. In other words, I was will to pay a bit more for the "convenience" of going to WM. Next time I won't bother.

** - I say "Almost Clueless", as at least one of them did know enough to look up the answer in the catalog.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

gtod25 said:


> a quick look at the cut ends would tell you. Methinks you protest too much.


Re-read my OP, por favor.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

As to price-matching. If WM, or any other store, can match a price then they should set the price lower in the first place. Basically, I feel that if I find a lower price on something I want, I go where I found that price. If WM want's to get my business with lower prices, then they better advertise lower prices.


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## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*Wow...*

Hi Slowbutsteady

Its a pity that you "found a marine chandlery devoid of anyone who could answer a pretty basic question about a pretty basic item."

Its a pity that you think "Maybe instead of "Tech 15", or whatever the f__k the name tags said, WM staff should just all go by the title "Almost Clueless Clerk"**, in flashing LED lights." Maybe these ladies were excellent at soft goods and fishing, and are not in fact "clueless".

Its a pity that you forgot your glasses.

Its a pity that you didn't fill out one of the "how are we doing" cards or do it online. Action would have been taken to improve the situation. It wouldn't have taken much longer that your posts here.

Its a pity that you don't like the price matching policy.

In 6 years (part time) I must say that a great percentage of the people I work with want to help customers. Staffing can be hit and miss especially in specialist retail. Associates good in one area can be weak in others. At least in my store we try and not hire too many "Almost Clueless Clerks'"** - unless they are very cute. In making this post I am not defending WM but rather my fellow associates. Very few of the ones I work with turn up for work planning to pee off customers.

Sorry you had such an unpleasant experience.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I agree with SlowButSteady.

I spent several decades in commission sales of consumer electronics. I succeeded partially because I knew exactly what I was selling and how to use it. In retail electronics you have to explain how to use the item often so you have to know. And all they are going to do is go home and plug it in. I wouldn't want to work in a store and not know the products. Nor would I want to buy from someone that didn't know what they were selling.

In the marine business the customer is not going home and plugging the product in like a dvd player. They are most often involved in a project and need a store that can provide answers, similar to Home Depot - and if they want my business they need to be knowledgeable as well.

In Victoria there is a large (just moved after decades) marine store called Trotac Marine. Many staff have been there over a decade. They are all knowledgeable about what they sell - at prices as good as WM or better in most cases. They have 2 staff very experienced in sailboat equipment and rigging. They have staff that are experienced in fishing equipment - both local and for those going south for a fishing holiday. They are all up on the other equipment they sell - from pumps to paint to electrical to electronics to diesel heaters. Between the items I have bought for my boat and the items I have bought for customers in the last few years it is well into 5 figures. 

I did buy a pair of deck shoes at WM once.

In Victoria WM is a very poor second choice. The store with the staff that know what they are selling wins.

Oh, tinned wire - I buy that from a national wire wholesaler's local outlet.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

SlowButSteady said:


> As to price-matching. If WM, or any other store, can match a price then they should set the price lower in the first place. Basically, I feel that if I find a lower price on something I want, I go where I found that price. If WM want's to get my business with lower prices, then they better advertise lower prices.


Lol, of course they _should_ - but of course they don't - as that isn't the way things work in corporate chain stores these days. So many businesses now pull this sort of "three cups and a ball" mindset against their customers, it's just the way it is anymore. _You_ have to work for a fair price nowadays. It's just how things are. It sucks, I agree.

I really don't mind fighting/playing the game, as I have made some really amazing scores that wouldn't have been possible under a "fair price/one price" retail system. I have been able to game their stupid "system" (the one where they hope you are lazy and just pay full price instead of doing your research) by simply taking the time to scour the universe for the lowest price, then finagling them into honoring the price I found.

I agree overall with your sentiment - however I also believe in dealing in the reality of the moment. When I need tinned wire (for example) - I walk in already knowing exactly what they have and what I "should" be paying...

I haven't walked blindly into a store to buy something in a pretty long time come to think of it... prolly never will again in fact (except for Bacon Sails of course)..


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Come on...its retail. You expect product knowledge for $9 an hour (in SoCal no less) and no benefits except an employee discount?


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

Does OP expect the pimple-faced kids at CVS to know which can of mixed nuts has the least salt content?
Does he expect the sales clerk at Barnes and Noble to know where to find Joshua Slocum without going to the computer first?
And I'm sure OP always gets pointed in the right direction by a person in an orange apron when he asks where the fetzer valves are in Home Depot.
It's the way of the world, mon ami.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

weinie said:


> Does OP expect the pimple-faced kids at CVS to know which can of mixed nuts has the least salt content?
> Does he expect the sales clerk at Barnes and Noble to know where to find Joshua Slocum without going to the computer first?
> And I'm sure OP always gets pointed in the right direction by a person in an orange apron when he asks where the fetzer valves are in Home Depot.
> It's the way of the world, mon ami.


Not in the better stores, the ones that give good service, not just a "price match policy". Especially in a business that sells complicated products.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

weinie said:


> Does OP expect the pimple-faced kids at CVS to know which can of mixed nuts has the least salt content?
> Does he expect the sales clerk at Barnes and Noble to know where to find Joshua Slocum without going to the computer first?
> And I'm sure OP always gets pointed in the right direction by a person in an orange apron when he asks where the fetzer valves are in Home Depot.
> It's the way of the world, mon ami.


No. But I would expect someone on the sales floor of a music store to know that a guitar has six strings, or someone at a plant nursery to know the difference between a conifer and an apple tree.

I'll say it again, this was a pretty basic question. That they didn't know off-hand if that specific wire was tinned is not the point. As far as I could tell, none of the employees in the store had any clue that tinned wire even existed.

Imagine walking into a Home Depot, asking the person in the paint section for latex primer, and they didn't know such a thing existed. Not that they couldn't find it on the shelves, but that they had never heard of such a thing. Wouldn't you be a bit taken aback? Now, I will admit that I was similarly shocked when the kid in the lumber section of Lowes didn't know what kiln-dried lumber was, but that's another story.....


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

SlowButSteady said:


> I'll say it again, this was a pretty basic question. That they didn't know off-hand if that specific wire was tinned is not the point. As far as I could tell, none of the employees in the store had any clue that tinned wire even existed.


Actually, it was a pretty inane question.

As is the comment above about 'marine wire' being cheaper at whatever.com.

That's like going into a Mercedes dealership and being pissed that they are more expensive than a riding lawnmower. When you shop for a Mercedes, you should understand why you are standing in a Mercedes dealership vs. a John Deere one; for example.

West Marine sells Anchor Brand Wire. It is the best of the best. There is a reason it costs more than some generic wire you find online. They also have it, and you can get it, now, today. These things also have a price associated with them.

And you, as a person who desires a certain feature should have done your own fundamental basic research before you asked the question. But the bottom line is that you received excellent customer service. The bottom line is that they solved your problem, did they not?

Ask me about electronics, or electrical and I'm your guy. Ask me about paint and you're likely to get a blank stare and think I'm a moron too. The reason I, and pretty much everybody else refers to the WM Catalog as a holy tome, is that, in fact, it's a pretty damned good book.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

did it even matter whether the wire was tinned, they had it and you wanted it, and it sounds like you told them this before you asked the question

but really these are just worker not boat experts

when you go to the grocery store do you expect the workers to be chefs?

I like WM because they the stuff in stock and will even match prices! This has to be worth something!


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Person asks if they can help. Person is unable to answer question. Person asks associate if they know. Associate doesn't know. They then look up item in catalog to determine proper answer to question. Find and answer the question. Customer leaves with what he wanted.

And the problem here is ... just what is the problem anyway? Sounds like an excellent example of customer service.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

xymotic said:


> West Marine sells Anchor Brand Wire. It is the best of the best. There is a reason it costs more than some generic wire you find online. They also have it, and you can get it, now, today. These things also have a price associated with them.


I purchased a spool of Ancor marine wire about four years ago from West Marine. I foolishly assumed it was tinned -- it was not. Unless Ancor has moved to 100% tinned wire (which perhaps they have) it was a perfectly sensible and reasonable question.

That being said, I would never expect any "associate" from these monster corporate retailers to know very much. That's why I prefer to leave my money with local businesses.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

I've got my own little peeves against WM, but they are more in the realm of minor annoyances.

I've got to side with the faction that seems to be saying that SBS's complaint is unfounded. When you boil it all down, most boat owners aren't as knowledgeable or discerning as many of us. Add that on top of a crew of employees who may or may not even be boat owners or have any experience in the marine trades and you're looking at a perfect exemplar of _caveat emptor._ WM's business model seems to be to maximize profits from the unwary shoppers/owners, while quietly accommodating people with more savvy though their under-the-radar price matching policy.

SBS -- good on you for knowing the difference between tinned and non-tinned wire, and knowing which is the superior product. But let's be brutally honest here -- the entire episode probably would never have come to pass had you not forgotten your glasses. That was your fault, and not theirs.

I wasn't there so I can't know for certain, but in my experience WM employees are very open to learning more about the wares they sell. Every time I've taken the time to explain why I'm looking for a particular product, the employee has listened closely, and have often expressed gratitude for being educated. Employee training comes in all shapes and sizes, and there are often times when the customer is the best trainer.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

PBzeer said:


> Person asks if they can help. Person is unable to answer question. Person asks associate if they know. Associate doesn't know. They then look up item in catalog to determine proper answer to question. Find and answer the question. Customer leaves with what he wanted.
> 
> And the problem here is ... just what is the problem anyway? Sounds like an excellent example of customer service.


I have to agree with Sammich here.

Look!...up there!... a pig!


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

SlowButSteady said:


> No. But I would expect someone on the sales floor of a music store to know that a guitar has six strings, ...


Some guitars have twelve strings. 

There are certainly more important things in your life to get this upset about and if you don't have any, I'd like to know your secret. Choose your battles.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Big box stores are pretty much self-service. You gotta do your research before you arrive there. I have found the West Marine employees to be better than employees at many other big box stores. Some of them actually share our interest in boating and are friendly.

I sometimes order directly from the store to avoid the high shipping and handling charges online, especially on hazardous items like paint. The items will be shipped there at no charge to the customer for pick up.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

If the sales person had been knowledgeable and said; "Sir, you don't know? only tinned cable is right for marine applications. Would you have been Pi$$ed for that? 
jus sayin...


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

> Some guitars have twelve strings.


And bass guitars can have 4,5,6 or 8 (maybe more, that's just the one's I've played)


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

xymotic said:


> ...
> 
> As is the comment above about 'marine wire' being cheaper at whatever.com.
> 
> West Marine sells Anchor Brand Wire. It is the best of the best. There is a reason it costs more than some generic wire you find online.


Ah... Well.. Actually not.

Ancor is West Marine's "captive" wire distributor. The cable is actually made by Pacer Group of Sarasota Florida which imports copper and other wire from various sources, commonly China, and sheaths it in proprietary plastic type insulation. In the course of doing the sheathing, various distributor names are impressed on the cable including Ancor. Once an order for cable has been run out, the name impressions are changed for the next distributor with an order and that is run out, etc. etc. etc. The cable sold by Genuine Dealz is the same cable that West Marine and other outlets sell under various other names. Because of my research into the matter I was able to obtain 100+ feet of 2/0 Battery cable together with necessary connectors and the like for a windlass installation in late 2006 for less than 1/3rd the cost of the same materials from West Marine. The hook was, of course, that I had to go directly to the manufacturer's plant in Sarasota and deal direct as they do not have a retail operation per se, nor will they package and ship small orders as they will not compete with their own customers.

Beyond the foregoing, I do not think one is asking too much to expect West Marine Store Employees to be knowledgeable about the products they are selling. Older, more long term employees generally are and the best are commonly older sailors with years of experience under their belts. They, however, do not seem to last too long as they either finish their own refits and restocking of their cruising kitties and go on their way; or, get tired of the petty BS at West Marine and find other employment. That is an unfortunate loss for the Company.

FWIW...


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

In '06, at the Kemah, TX Home Depot, they had a marine wire section selling ancor products. I remember it because you could get the 18' mini-roll of #14 tinned wire for $3.99 instead of almost $20 at West.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

If the West Marine rah-rah section would bother to actually read my posts, you might see that my point is NOT that a particular *Almost Clueless Clerk* couldn't say off the top of her head whether the wire was tinned. The question, after-all, was something of an afterthought. *The issue is that none of the employees in that store, a store specializing in marine merchandise, had any clue that tinned marine electrical wire even exists.*

Obviously, WM caters to the lowest common denominator..... their loyal customers.


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

While the surveyor was looking at my boat, I mentioned a certain sized through hull fitting which I could not find at WM. He said "West Marine is a clothing store". 
This point has been beaten to death- there are a wide variety of products, so adjust your expectations accordingly for the average sales associate. I think this is all a generalization. I have had similar experience (which then led me to do the research and learn for myself, which has made ME more knowledgeable, thank you WM), and I have also experienced the opposite, where the guy at WM knew so much that his questions overwhelmed me. There is a competing Ship Store in MDR which is a mom and pop place and I want to support them, but I get the same glassy eyed stare when I ask things like "what kind of mahogany are your bungs?".
This lack of expertise is not exclusive to WM. I agree with what DRFerron said above.


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## paperbird (Sep 1, 2011)

My experience FWIW has varied quite a bit. We have 4 West locations within driving distance, 3 in/around Annapolis, 1 in the yard where the boat is stored (Herrington). Each has a very different feel and level of expertise in the stores. Between them, they have folks who are trying to figure out what the pointy end is, and folks who live aboard, cruise extensively and are very knowledgable. Just like any other retail chain.

Overall, their price match policy is great. Convenience (the location at Herrington is just across the lot from the boat) is hard to beat when in the middle of a project and needing a part.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

jameswilson29 said:


> Big box stores are pretty much self-service. You gotta do your research before you arrive there. I have found the West Marine employees to be better than employees at many other big box stores. Some of them actually share our interest in boating and are friendly.
> 
> I sometimes order directly from the store to avoid the high shipping and handling charges online, especially on hazardous items like paint. The items will be shipped there at no charge to the customer for pick up.


Plus 1

We love em and we hate em, but when you need an obscure piece of boat junk that you are unlikely to find at Home Depot. WM almost always comes through.......SO it's either order online, and wait a week or two, or go buy an overpriced part from a clue less clerk, that at least can find it on the shelf, and sell it to you on a friday evening so you can spend the weekend boating, instead of looking at a empty mailbox. I live in a major city, and have driven all over town looking for boating parts, but West Marine is were I usually end up.

PS clueless clerks are the norm when corperate giants pay so low no one can afford to work there more than a few months.

In life you need to pick your battles,...I'll just go sailing instead.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

SlowButSteady said:


> If the West Marine rah-rah section would bother to actually read my posts,


SBS,

Actually, I did read your post -- I just happen to disagree with you.

Does WM get all of my business? Not hardly.

Does WM get some of my business? Yes, particularly when I need something immediately to either get me out on the water or to maintain momentum on a project. My expectations for WM are perhaps a little lower than yours, so maybe that's why I'm not as peeved as you seem to be.

If you feel that strongly about it, you have the ultimate power over WM: Just don't shop there anymore. Plenty of other choices for marine supplies out there.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

SBS-"Obviously, WM caters to the lowest common denominator..... their loyal customers."

Since practically every one here on SN buys stuff from WM at one time or another I guess that would be us you're insulting? Next time you need something today for the boat, order it online, see how that works out. Sorry, but this seems like the proverbial mountain, molehill thing to me.


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## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*If this is your only point....*

"The issue is that none of the employees in that store, a store specializing in marine merchandise, had any clue that tinned marine electrical wire even exists."

Then congratulations you WIN. Not sure its worth getting pissed off over, its hardly going to be an isolated incident in your retail experience.

But again CONGRATULATIONS....YOUR POINT IS TOTALLY CORRECT.


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## gryff57 (Oct 10, 2011)

I recently had to teach a worker at a local home improvement store to read. I wanted a waterproof caulk and he was recommending one that was clearly marked "not for use in wet applications"


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

jrd22 said:


> SBS-"Obviously, WM caters to the lowest common denominator..... their loyal customers."
> 
> Since practically every one here on SN buys stuff from WM at one time or another I guess that would be us you're insulting?


 *SBS*







You whippersnappers wouldn't know good service if it bit you on your butt!


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

OK, OK. Old-guy rant over.

Now, all of you, GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!!!


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## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*Come on down to Miami....*



gryff57 said:


> I recently had to teach a worker at a local home improvement store to read. I wanted a waterproof caulk and he was recommending one that was clearly marked "not for use in wet applications"


And you get to teach English as well. Mind you, go in with the right attitude and even that can be a pleasant experience.

BTW SBS I loved you in that movie;


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

SloopJonB said:


> Come on now SBS - do YOU know every detail of every piece of electronic hardware in one of those stores? I suspect you'd be just as pi$$ed if you were looking at a chart plotter and they didn't talk like a factory tech. Tinned wire is kind of exotic - those of us who do our own work know about it but store clerks???


I'd like to think that Marine Electricians are out making more money than most WM employees, but then, with all you guys doing your own work....

BTW~I just picked up a Tilley hat at the WM super-sale for 24.95!!


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

SlowButSteady said:


> If the West Marine rah-rah section would bother to actually read my posts, you might see that my point is NOT that a particular *Almost Clueless Clerk* couldn't say off the top of her head whether the wire was tinned. The question, after-all, was something of an afterthought. *The issue is that none of the employees in that store, a store specializing in marine merchandise, had any clue that tinned marine electrical wire even exists.*
> 
> Obviously, WM caters to the lowest common denominator..... their loyal customers.


Did the store personal give you an answer to your question? (Which is what they are there for.) If they did, then what more do you want of them?

Why do you assume that just because others don't agree with you, that they are the "West Marine rah-rah section"?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

I've got a better one for you SlowButSteady.

I went to an ear nose and throat surgeon specialist to have my ears checked out as required before a certification SCUBA dive.

He said that diving in the pool wasn't the same as diving in the ocean because the ocean was so much bigger. I said I thought it was the depth the diver went down not the breadth of the body of water. He said Oh no the breadth was the most important.
I didn't argue with him as he had sharp instraments near my brain.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

davidpm said:


> I've got a better one for you SlowButSteady.
> 
> I went to an ear nose and throat surgeon specialist to have my ears checked out as required before a certification SCUBA dive.
> 
> ...


Don't feel too bad, I once had a physics graduate student try to tell me a very similar thing.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

That whole WM Price match thing calls to mind a t-shirt I once saw on a big hairy biker at an outlaw motorcycle shop. It Read:

"We Rip Off the Other Guy and Pass the Savings on To You"


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Expecting a WM employee to know the products is naive. You and I know about these matters because we're interested, and we're interested because we own boats. 

Given what a large retailer pays their employees, what kind of boat do you think the person waiting on you has? Rowboat? Kayak? 

It's nice when you run into a retired boat owner working at WM, or sailboat owner with knowledge who happens to be supplementing their income in a down economy. 

For the most part, when they ask me if I need help, I tell them what I'm doing with NO expectation that they'll be able to help me. In the rare instance that they actually know something, I treat it as a bonus. 

I can't imagine going to WM or any supplier without having first done my homework on the internet. WM is in it to make money, and I'm sure they figured out a loooooong time ago that their successful business model does not include cramming knowledge into the heads of low-pay employees.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

SlowButSteady said:


> OK, OK. Old-guy rant over.
> 
> Now, all of you, GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!!!


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm with you SBS. This is one of many reasons I no longer go to WM! Another member said if you want competent staff, the WM prices would go even higher. I say, for the prices they charge (at least 100% mark up in most cases) they should have competent staff! I mean...knowing what tinned wire is in a marine store? We aren't exactly talking about something esoteric here! Go into any Chandlery and ask if they know what tinned wire is. Their response will speak volumes! 
My other problem with WM was that more often than not, they were out of a basic item I came in for. I complained to the corporate office who said they were aware of the problem and were fixing it. It never got any better. 
I'm amazed by comments in these threads that make excuses for poor service and high prices. In this thread http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/53056-please-least-use-some-ky.html I complained about 400% mark up for marine products. Some responses said it was due to "economy of scale". I proceeded to prove it was not true. Some people seem to need to justify getting screwed, rather than doing something about it! I try to patronize local businesses when they provide good service. However I'll no longer set foot in a West Marine store. I go on line, or to a chandlery, where I still pay too much. However, at least they know what tinned wire is, and a Bow from a Stearn!


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Not to be picky, but what is a "stearn"? Been on many a boat with a stern, but never heard of a "stearn" before.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

davidpm said:


> I've got a better one for you SlowButSteady.
> 
> I went to an ear nose and throat surgeon specialist to have my ears checked out as required before a certification SCUBA dive.
> 
> ...


Wow...thats scary!
BTW, he's apparently never seen Larry Ellison's pool!


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

GeorgeB said:


> Not to be picky, but what is a "stearn"? Been on many a boat with a stern, but never heard of a "stearn" before.


Thats pretty picky and rather stern (I think you know what I meant, though they wouldn't at WM!)! In any case, I stand corrected, right you are!


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## remetau (Jan 27, 2009)

It has been my experience that the majority of WMs have at least some competent staff. My wife worked at a WM in the Keys for a bit and they were required to take courses for the merchandise that they carry and I would say that 90% of the staff in there could tell you what tinned wire is.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Hmm, when I'm working on my house I get some stuff at Depot, some stuff at the local lumber yard and specialty items at plumbing/electrical supply houses and places like Woodworkers Warehouse. Stuff I don’t need right now I order online. I have a pretty good idea what to buy where and in a pinch Depot/Lowes are usually open when the specialty guys are closed - but I’ll probably pay more for that convenience.

It’s no different when I work on my boat. It could be WM, The GPS Store, my local hardware store (who stocks a ton of marine stuff), the store at the next marina, Defender or Jamestown Distributors.

At all these stores there’s a wide range of expertise. It’s best to have some clue walking in the door so you can judge the advice you’re getting. BTW that applies to specialty retailers as well.

Why is West more expensive than online? Well they have to have a ton more warehouse space, handle the logistics of shipping to a bunch of stores, print all those catalogs, have computer systems to track it all, pay for the cost of all that retail space and pay people all the way up and down that supply chain. Do they charge too much? In some cases absolutely. But they do price match, they’re there when I need that #[email protected]!*widget on Sunday afternoon and I get it right now.

They also send out “rewards certificates” and have some decent sales. Like Chris said you can do pretty well if you know how to play the game. How’s that different from anything else in life?

Now if I could just figure out what to do with all the damned boat odds and ends I’ve accumulated in the garage over the years…


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## Argyle38 (Oct 28, 2010)

Discussion about WM always end up lively. I guess that goes with the territory with being the big guy on the block. 

Personally, I have a that sort of like/hate relationship with WM that many boaters do. 

I like the fact that they are typically not too far from where the boat is and that, at least around here, they keep a reasonable amount of the basic hardware commodities that I might need on short notice. 

I never buy any expensive items there. I don't do the "price match" thing. If I find it less expensive somewhere else, I buy it from somewhere else. On expensive items, shipping and sales tax often cancel out when ordering online. (Besides, why would I be in a hurry to get my new items in, once they arrive, I have to install them, and that's work.  ). 

But, the one thing that annoys me to no end at WM (and I think this might be a local issue) is OVER-eagerness of the staff. As soon as I walk in, I get one, maybe two or even three people asking me "What can I help you find today?". It's not even a "Hello, welcome to West Marine" type of greeting, which would be nice. It's borderline hostile. It's not letting you know that the staff is there if you need them, it's telling you that you must tell them why you are there and you better do it quick!  Also, you can't be in an aisle for more than five minutes without someone approaching you to ask if you need help. I don't get it. If you are the staff, be available if I need you, but if I need you I'll let you know. Again, it's almost hostile. 

It's to the point where my wife wont even go with me to WM. It would be clear to any reasonable person that when she does come with, she's just there "holding my purse" so to speak. I'm the reason we're there. Still, if she had a chance to browse in peace, she might actually find something interesting and maybe make a purchase. But as it is, she gets berated by overly helpful staff. 

I almost think that there might be a local general manager who believes that a happy customer is a customer who is never left alone. I don't get it.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

knothead said:


>


At least you didn't post a vid of me singing:


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

I interrupt this thread for a scented marker!


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

LandLocked66c said:


> I interrupt this thread for a scented marker!


Is that a marine grade majic marker??

$29.95 please!!


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Argyle38 said:


> But, the one thing that annoys me to no end at WM (and I think this might be a local issue) is OVER-eagerness of the staff...


This is one of the things that to me are annoyances -- I kind of grind my teeth when I walk in the store.

Since I've found it to be true in many of the WM's along the eastern seaboard, I kind of think it's gotta be corporate policy or perhaps a policy that's been implemented in an overly enthusiastic manner.

On the good side, at least they pretty much leave me alone once I tell them I'm doing OK by myself. And nobody's tried to push products on me, for which I am also thankful.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

PBzeer said:


> And bass guitars can have 4,5,6 or 8 (maybe more, that's just the one's I've played)


Who knew John played the bass? And what is up with the BLJ nickname for you of "Sammich"?
What kind(s) of music did/do you play?

WM? Meh. Not worth wasting my breath on.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

PorFin said:


> This is one of the things that to me are annoyances -- I kind of grind my teeth when I walk in the store.
> 
> Since I've found it to be true in many of the WM's along the eastern seaboard, I kind of think it's gotta be corporate policy or perhaps a policy that's been implemented in an overly enthusiastic manner.
> 
> On the good side, at least they pretty much leave me alone once I tell them I'm doing OK by myself. And nobody's tried to push products on me, for which I am also thankful.


You guys are obviously over dressed for this store.
If you wore ripped, torn clothing with paint and grease stains on them, if you hadn't shaved or showered in a few days they would ignore you. 
Trust me on this.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

While in Lowe's a while back, I heard a female associate ask a customer if he needed help. The guy told her he wanted to look at the scroll saws. With a most polite, friendly, and helpful attitude she told him they were "right over here" and led him right to them. He said thanks, he wanted to look for now so the girl went back to what she was doing nearby.

I remember this because in just a minute the guy called her back over, said he wanted to buy this certain saw, and asked what type of blades the saw used. Of course, she didn't know so the guy got all huffy about it. I mentioned to them both that it should say on the box whether it needed pin or straight, some will even accept both. A male associate showed up at that time, didn't know either, and had to read the box carefully to find the info.

Two things struck me about the incident.

1. Even though the girl knew they sold scroll saws and even led the guy right to them, he got pissed because she didn't know the specific details (blade type) of one particular item out of the thousands that Lowe's carries.

2. While the guy was man enough to become huffy and borderline rude to this girl when she didn't know the answer to his question, he was NOT man enough to act that way with the male associate, a rather fit looking fellow, when he didn't know either.

Personally, I think if you had asked at the counter if they sold battery cable, they could have took you to it but to expect them to know the specific details of that particular wire off the top of their head was probably asking too much. Did the labeling on the wire spool specify whether it was tinned? They did look up and give you an answer, after all.

And no, I do not work for WM. I would be lucky to remember every little item that is stocked on the shelves, let alone every detail of each item in the store. Just as the associate at Lowes had probably never used a scroll saw before, the associates that inspired your wrath had probably never wired a boat before.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

CalebD said:


> You guys are obviously over dressed for this store.
> If you wore ripped, torn clothing with paint and grease stains on them, if you hadn't shaved or showered in a few days they would ignore you.
> Trust me on this.


Oh I trust you on that! When I go into lumber stores trailing sawdust and my beat up tape hooked on my belt, the sales staff never come near me and I have other customers asking me questions. I once helped a nice lady pick out everything she neededd to lay some ceramic tile in her bathroom. She then asked me to explain how to do it! It was tile laying 101 in isle 14!


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## Ikonoblast (Feb 12, 2012)

Sockittoem, SBS. They should have a basic knowledge of their products if they are going to represent themselves as marine specialists. BTW, someone told me today of a marine salvage yard in Houston that requires a subscription or membership. Anyone know of such a place or another boat junk or salvage yard in the Houston area?


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## Argyle38 (Oct 28, 2010)

CalebD said:


> You guys are obviously over dressed for this store.
> If you wore ripped, torn clothing with paint and grease stains on them, if you hadn't shaved or showered in a few days they would ignore you.
> Trust me on this.


Oh no, not at the old Milford West Marine. This is one of my "favorite experiences" there.

I think it was summer of '10 and I was doing something on Argyle (always doing 'something'). It was a hot day and my wife was with me so it was somewhat of a big project where needed a second hand available. At some point, in the middle of the project, it turned out that I needed something that I absolutely didn't have on board. By the time I get to this point I'm already in a pretty foul mood. First, I didn't plan well enough so I'm mad at myself. Second, I'm forced to look for things in the boat, again calling up my planning as well as my organizational skills. My boat is on a floating dock (like a mooring) in the middle of a river, so I have to row to shore, drive the 5 or so miles to the West Marine.

At this point I'm steaming, mostly at myself, admittedly, but I'm also hot, sweaty, probably covered in fiberglass dust, grease, maybe some sealant in my hair like I'm 'Something About Mary'. Definitely not the high-class yachtsman walking in to buy a new set of top-siders. I'm walking in with a scowl on my face and with a purpose. To buy this damned part and get back to the damned boat and get this job done so we can have some fun dammit!!

Well this was the day that I got three people enthusiastically welcoming me to West Marine within the first 10 seconds of my walking in.

First person; "HEY THERE, WELCOME TO WEST MARINE, WE HAVE SOME GREAT SALES TODAY ON ...."

Me; OK thanks.

Second Person; "WELCOME TO WEST MARINE, CAN I HELP YOU FIND ANYTHING?"

Me; No thanks, I'm good.

Third person; "WELCOME TO WEST MARINE, WHAT CAN I HELP YOU FIND TODAY"

Me; Jesus no! Just let me by my ******* bolt!!! (or whatever it was)

They left me alone after that, for that day anyway. Bought my part and on the way out my wife was kind of giving me a smirk. "You know you just became 'that guy' don't you."

"Yeah, I know"


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

> Who knew John played the bass? And what is up with the BLJ nickname for you of "Sammich"?
> What kind(s) of music did/do you play?


CalebD - he's under the mistaken impression that PB is for peanut butter.

Basically we played danceable rock.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

PBzeer said:


> CalebD - he's under the mistaken impression that PB is for peanut butter.
> 
> Basically we played danceable rock.


Oh come now John, you know that he is under no such impression. He's just trying to get your goat. 
That you handle it so well is proof enough to me that you have a healthy sense of humor and an admirable patience.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

I've had plenty of bad experiences with people at WM that don't know d*ck about sailboat hardware or running rigging. Believe it or not I actually bought a new outboard motor from there. It ran for sh!t, had a horrible experience with the warranty, and the manager told me we would split the diagnosis charge. I said fine (I needed a motor to get back to my home port). When I got home, wrote a letter to the higher ups and they reimbursed me for the charges and then some along with a written apology. Ok, fine, the manager was still unprofessional and rude. They said I had stored the motor improperly. When the "sales Assc" loaded it into the car, they placed it upside down. I had to show them the manual on how to store it. Which is exactly the reason why the motor didn't run right in the first place. 

The prices shouldn't go up for educated staff. Heaven forbid they should just cut into their profits a little. And why should customers have to haggle to get a fair price? I always research parts before I buy, and don't mind spending a little more for convenience, but 3x the cost on some items is ridiculous.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

And they do have profits. From Latitude 38:


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> but 3x the cost on some items is ridiculous.


In the free enterprise system when something continually cost more and the service is substandard, it usually affects the bottom line

To compare WM to Defender and any other online stores is like comparing apples and oranges. Mmost have one store and warehouse in a place in the counrty/ state where land is much cheaper. In addition you do not have to pay the infrastructure of keeping a nationwide network of stores. With WM you pay for the conviernnce of them havoing the part there I beleive. I agree with the posters about the genral lack of knowledge about products, but the store I frequent in baltimore or annapolis is willing to find out. Very often I go to the WM to look at a product so I can "touch" it and see if the quality of the part I am buying is what I expect and then go home and try and finds the price which is the lowest. They certainly are not the answer for many items which a home chandlery has much greater expertise in.

If WM does not meet your needs....do not shop there. Vote with your pocketbook. Thats is the message they understand the most.

Dave


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> If WM does not meet your needs....do not shop there. Vote with your pocketbook. Thats is the message they understand the most.
> 
> Dave


That the beauty of our free market system. We have the power. It's our money that drives it. Without us, West Marine wouldn't be able to survive. The fact that it does means that it is fulfilling the needs of enough people. Real simple.

I just wish we remembered more often who really has the power in this world and were able to unite in order to bring about changes..., perhaps a little more significant than forcing West Marine to institute a four year training program for their cashiers.


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## jesselee (Jan 27, 2012)

I agree it seams west marine wants twice as much as anyone if you don't need it right now shop around


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

mitiempo said:


> And they do have profits. From Latitude 38:


Stock just fell 10% today. mebe some hedgefund hot shots read this forum?


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

svHyLyte said:


> Ah... Well.. Actually not.
> 
> Ancor is West Marine's "captive" wire distributor. The cable is actually made by Pacer Group of Sarasota Florida which imports copper and other wire from various sources, commonly China, and sheaths it in proprietary plastic type insulation. In the course of doing the sheathing, various distributor names are impressed on the cable including Ancor. Once an order for cable has been run out, the name impressions are changed for the next distributor with an order and that is run out, etc. etc. etc. The cable sold by Genuine Dealz is the same cable that West Marine and other outlets sell under various other names. Because of my research into the matter I was able to obtain 100+ feet of 2/0 Battery cable together with necessary connectors and the like for a windlass installation in late 2006 for less than 1/3rd the cost of the same materials from West Marine. The hook was, of course, that I had to go directly to the manufacturer's plant in Sarasota and deal direct as they do not have a retail operation per se, nor will they package and ship small orders as they will not compete with their own customers.
> 
> ...


Pacer was a distributor to Ancor/Marinco but I am not sure if they are any longer. Ancor also used Berkshire Wire (which really IS the best) but they only used them for certain wire types.. Today Marinco uses another manufacturer for the bulk of their wire (it is a US company). I am not a huge fan of this manufacturers product and as such avoid Anchor wire, and some other brands also extruded by this company.....

Ancor is NOT a manufacturer of wire, lugs crimps or tools. They are a re-packager only. As one who works with wire, crimps and lugs on a daily basis I can assure you Ancor is NOT the best as Xymotic claims but it is the most expensive. I will actually drive 25 minutes across town to NOT buy Ancor products, especially their crimp terminals...

Unfortunately Berkshire was recently sold and the fate of their marine wire is up in the air. Many wire vendors are scrambling to find a replacement that is equal to Berkshire but this is no easy task as it was by a massive margin the most flexible and easy to work with marine wire I've ever used.. I have been through four different brands of battery cable in six months and NONE of it is as good as Berkshire. Morris Yachts used Berkshire too as did Lyman Morse and many other high end builders.

My most recent spool of 2/0 is made by the company making Ancor's battery cable.. Yuk!!

As for WM my store is excellent and I have no complaints but then again I always know exactly what I want when I walk in. If they don't have it Port Supply drops it off at my house the next day..


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## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*Argyle38 I'm going to be nice to you....*

because my last boat was a DE38 "Eriu", LOL.



Argyle38 said:


> Well this was the day that I got three people enthusiastically welcoming me to West Marine within the first 10 seconds of my walking in.
> 
> First person; "HEY THERE, WELCOME TO WEST MARINE, WE HAVE SOME GREAT SALES TODAY ON ...."
> 
> ...


1. We have to greet you withing 10 seconds because that's policy.

2. We have to acknowledge you if we pass within 10 feet because that's policy.

Learn some coping sayings like, "just shoplifting, thank you", "No Hablo Ingles", "I vant to be left alone" is a Swedish accent (this will work for your wife). Despite contrary opinion and even after 8 hrs of retail most associates have a sense of humor.:laugher


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Maine Sail said:


> As for WM my store is excellent and I have no complaints but then again I always know exactly what I want when I walk in. If they don't have it Port Supply drops it off at my house the next day..


That's something I hadn't thought of. I seldom visit the stores anymore, but I use Port Supply at least once or twice a week. Perhaps they are subsidizing the Port Supply division by cutting corners in the retail stores. 

Yay!!! Go Port Supply. What a great service. Order it this afternoon and have it in shop before ten the tomorrow. 
These days, when it's difficult to keep a big inventory, Port Supply is a lifesaver.

As far as I'm concerned, West Marine is doing alright.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

knothead said:


> That's something I hadn't thought of. I seldom visit the stores anymore, but I use Port Supply at least once or twice a week. Perhaps they are subsidizing the Port Supply division by cutting corners in the retail stores.
> 
> Yay!!! Go Port Supply. What a great service. Order it this afternoon and have it in shop before ten the tomorrow.
> These days, when it's difficult to keep a big inventory, Port Supply is a lifesaver.


Unfortunately, Port Supply is a commercial distributor, and will not sell to us mere mortals...


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

eherlihy said:


> Unfortunately, Port Supply is a commercial distributor, and will not sell to us mere mortals...


No but you can get price matching that is as good or better than our pricing. The only benefit to PS is the delivery and the fact that I don't have to price match "as much".... My PS rep is also excellent and goes out of his way to offer good service.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

Argyle38 said:


> But, the one thing that annoys me to no end at WM (and I think this might be a local issue) is OVER-eagerness of the staff. As soon as I walk in, I get one, maybe two or even three people asking me "What can I help you find today?". It's not even a "Hello, welcome to West Marine" type of greeting, which would be nice. It's borderline hostile. It's not letting you know that the staff is there if you need them, it's telling you that you must tell them why you are there and you better do it quick!  Also, you can't be in an aisle for more than five minutes without someone approaching you to ask if you need help. I don't get it. If you are the staff, be available if I need you, but if I need you I'll let you know. Again, it's almost hostile.... I almost think that there might be a local general manager who believes that a happy customer is a customer who is never left alone. I don't get it.


Almost sounds like they are on commission! In any case, I haven't been in a WM in over 3 years, but I can assure you, I never had that problem in the SF Bay Area stores! 
Years ago when I first got my boat, I naively walked into a WM store and showed the clerk (sorry..."associate"!) a basic piece of marine hardware. I said, "I need to replace this". He stared at it blankly, and to my surprise, replied "What is it?" They didn't have it anyway, but boy...was I naive. Makes me laugh every time I think about it!


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## Argyle38 (Oct 28, 2010)

gtod25 said:


> because my last boat was a DE38 "Eriu", LOL.
> 
> 1. We have to greet you withing 10 seconds because that's policy.
> 
> ...


Hey Gerry,

I recognize your alias from the old DE website, we've actually spoken via email a few times when he old site went down. 

Yeah, I fully understand that this must be their policy. I've worked in retail before myself. I just question the wisdom of it, from a corporate brass point of view. West Marine is the type of place that can really benefit from an environment that encourages browsing at a leisurely pace. People go in and work projects through their heads, get ideas, make plans. Having the staff nearby to ask questions is great and facilitates that process, which could lead to sales. Asking the person every few minutes if they need help makes it seem almost like they want you to either buy something now or leave (kind of like being in an old bookstore, pre-Borders, when they would give you the stink-eye if you looked through a book for more than a few minutes). I just don't think the policy has the effect that they think it has. I certainly don't hold it against the folks on the front lines though.

As far as that day I referenced in my previous post, yeah, that was all about the day I was having and less about them, but it does illustrate how that kind of policy can backfire. Normally I'm quite polite and say "hello" when greeted and "no thanks, I know where I'm going" when asked how I can be helped.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

JimMcGee said:


> Why is West more expensive than on line? Well they have to have a ton more warehouse space, handle the logistics of shipping to a bunch of stores, print all those catalogs, have computer systems to track it all, pay for the cost of all that retail space and pay people all the way up and down that supply chain. Do they charge too much? In some cases absolutely. But they do price match, they're there when I need that #[email protected]!*widget on Sunday afternoon and I get it right now.


I don't think anyone was questioning that on line stores have lower overhead. However in the link I sited previously (post #55), the store that sold the item at 300% less than WM was a medium size brick and mortar Ace Hardware store with a marine section approximately 1/4 the size of an average WM store. So, rationalize it however you want, you are getting soaked at WM and most marine outlets (including on line), simply because the products are "Marine". Why would they ever change when their customers are making excuses for them? They are laughing all the way to the bank!



JimMcGee said:


> They also send out "rewards certificates" and have some decent sales. Like Chris said you can do pretty well if you know how to play the game. How's that different from anything else in life?


I don't want to "play games" or clip coupons. I want to pay a reasonable price to a reasonably knowledgeable sales staff, who keeps stock on hand. Apparently that is too much to ask for at WM stores near me!


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## Gust14882 (Nov 30, 2010)

I used to work at a marine supply store and pretty much found out that the young sales kids hung around the electronics counter because of the various sales commissions offered by the suppliers. They knew how each new gadget worked ...as long as there was a healthy commission involved. The rest of the store ...forget it. That was left to me (experienced boat builder/refitter) and one other guy who worked to support his own boating habit. At the end of each day, guess who had the most sales racked up? And it didn't involve electronics. WM and others would be wise to pay attention to comments like these.


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

AVAILABILITY and PERSPECTIVE

Some of us recall the "good old days" before West Marine, when trying to buy any marine item was a challenge.

I think WM set the bar for availability of items that we didn't find anywhere else.

They've gone through many phases: knowledgeable staff to clueless to now a reasonable mix.

Before one starts knocking WM, consider the alternative: little or no source for any boating material.

Our local Safeway stores did the "meet & greet" crap a few years ago and it was just horrible.

But I don't mind someone saying hello when I walk in, I just say hello back and keep going. If they ask what I'm looking for I say "Just browsing" or looking for something but i know where it is.

Not so hard.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

Stu Jackson said:


> AVAILABILITY and PERSPECTIVE
> 
> Some of us recall the "good old days" before West Marine, when trying to buy any marine item was a challenge.
> I think WM set the bar for availability of items that we didn't find anywhere else.
> ...


There is a WM store within half a mile of my boat. The nearest small chandlery is about 7 miles away. I can call the chandlery, have a conversation with someone who knows about boats, and can have almost anything I need the next day. And of course, I can always order on line and have the item delivered to my door or the marina. Is WM more convenient for me (IF they even have what I need)? Absolutely. Is that convenience worth the aggravation I experienced almost every time I went to WM? Absolutely not!


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## tomperanteau (Jun 4, 2009)

I need a beer. Who's with me?


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

I live in long island. It's a freakin' island. Surrounded by water. I've lived here all my life. I live on the water on the south shore. I keep my boat on the north shore. AND FOR ALL OF MY WORTH, I HAVE NEVER EVEN SEEN A CHANDLERY IN MY LIFE!!!

I'll take WM any day of the week. 

I can't remember the last time I went into ANY store and a salesperson was of value to me. 

Home depot? forget it.
Car dealership? yeah right.
Shoe store? I buy online.
Real estate broker? I see the house on multiple and arrange to view it.

In fact I can't remember the last time I felt I needed the help of a salesperson.

I guess the old days are officially gone!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

For all the critics that don't think WM knows how to run a business, they released their results for 2011 last week. Seems like its working.

WATSONVILLE, Calif.-- (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Feb. 23, 2012 -- West Marine, Inc. (Nasdaq: WMAR) today released unaudited financial results for the fourth quarter and fiscal year ended December 31, 2011.

Fiscal Year 2011 Highlights:


Pre-tax income was $21.2 million, a $7.0 million, or 49.0%, increase compared to last year.
Net income was $29.7 million, or $1.27 per fully diluted share, compared to $13.2 million, or $0.57 per fully diluted share, last year, a 124.3% increase, reflecting a significant tax benefit from the valuation allowance release during the year.
Net revenues for the fiscal year ended December 31, 2011 were $643.4 million, a $20.6 million or 3.3% increase over last year.
At year-end, we were debt free.
Year-end cash balance was nearly double that of last year at $44.0 million.
Inventory per square foot decreased by 4.9% versus last year.
Operating cash flow increased by 49.6% to $37.2 million.

Want to bet a mutual fund in your 401k owns their stock?


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

tomperanteau said:


> I need a beer. Who's with me?


WOOOHOOOO!!!!!! I'm in!!!


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## BELLATRIX1965 (Jan 2, 2007)

*Plus 1!!!*



deniseO30 said:


> This is best place to buy wire according to most boat owners here.
> Genuinedealz > Marine Wire, Boat Wire, Boat Cable, Marine Grade $1.97 ft
> -----
> WM = 4 Gauge Battery Cable, Black, $2.99 ft


Yup, I'm with Denise - GenuineDealz.com - Marine Electrical, Boat Wire & Cable, Custom Battery Cables for ANYTHING related to marine wire / cable! Brand-name cable, $1 a pop for crimping and heat-shrinking end fittings, FREE shipping, and they usually have the order delivered to your door in a day or two. Worst Marine - not so much!!


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

weinie said:


> I live in long island. It's a freakin' island. Surrounded by water. I've lived here all my life. I live on the water on the south shore. I keep my boat on the north shore. AND FOR ALL OF MY WORTH, I HAVE NEVER EVEN SEEN A CHANDLERY IN MY LIFE!!!
> I'll take WM any day of the week.
> I can't remember the last time I went into ANY store and a salesperson was of value to me.
> Home depot? forget it.
> ...


You buy shoes on line? Say no more! BTW....Most islands are surrounded by water. I finely understand the psyche of the West Marine customer!


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> For all the critics that don't think WM knows how to run a business, they released their results for 2011 last week. Seems like its working.
> 
> WATSONVILLE, Calif.-- (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Feb. 23, 2012 -- West Marine, Inc. (Nasdaq: WMAR) today released unaudited financial results for the fourth quarter and fiscal year ended December 31, 2011.
> 
> ...


I don't think the issue was if the business model was working for WM. It was whether it was working for the customer! It's obvious that there are plenty of boat owners who are willing to spend their money for mediocre service and overpriced goods. Is that the way to "run a business". I don't think so. 
Wall street is still making ridiculous profits. Where does that leave the Country?


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

*Sos!*

This thread made me think; "I haven't been in WM for a few years, maybe they have changed". Here is a thread regarding my visit today. http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/84564-battery-vhf-radio.html#post839541
Also, needed a roll of Fine Line masking tape. Almost $30 at WM. Went down the block to a auto supply store....$20
NOPE...nothing has changed!


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## jesselee (Jan 27, 2012)

Ya I like the fact that wm is their and I have spent some $ their butt: only as a last resort the staff here in Naples are just sales persons I'm a sailor the staff doesn't know a fiddle block from a compass rose 15years ago it was a different place


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> You buy shoes on line? Say no more- L124C


I wouldnt make fun of this if I were you. Lets take a vote on how many people have bought shoes on line. I am thinking youd be very suprised.

I buy all of my Rockport and boat shoes on line. In fact I dont think I have bought shoes in a shoe store in over 15 years. Why not? Its a lot cheaper. Also most sites will pay the shipping if returned for size.

Dave


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

chef2sail said:


> I wouldnt make fun of this if I were you. Lets take a vote on how many people have bought shoes on line. I am thinking youd be very suprised.
> 
> I buy all of my Rockport and boat shoes on line. In fact I dont think I have bought shoes in a shoe store in over 15 years. Why not? Its a lot cheaper. Also most sites will pay the shipping if returned for size.
> 
> Dave


Agreed. That was a pretty dumb statement. Shoes? Heck. I'd buy everything online if I could. Mostly for the convenience and now shipping is less expensive (and lots of places have free shipping as an incentive to buy) then all the gas I'd use. I live in the country so even a decent grocery store is a ways from my house. I'd rather spend my life living and not driving to and from a store. Specialty foods, clothing, shoes, boat stuff, anything possible gets purchased online. I usually only stop at an actual store if it's on my way to work, or in the case of dairy products and meat, from the farmer down the road. If Wegmans delivered, I'd be in ecstasy.

Yeah, I'm a woman who hates shopping in stores and malls make me twitchy. Don't get me started on shopping cart drivers in grocery stores. My UPS driver and mail man rock!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> My UPS driver and mail man rock


!

I am laughing her as I agree wholeheartedly

BTW- Wegmans is an awsome store...I just came home from the one in Hunt Valley where we shop and got the most awsome looking veal rib chops I have seen in a long time with some great varietal mushrooms. Dinner tonight will be something good.

Dave


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## rhr1956 (Dec 18, 2010)

I too like WM. Just this morning I went in and bought 60' of 3/16" Amsteel line and a few pieces of hardware. He charged me for 40'...said it was because a couple weeks ago I bought some stuff and he forgot to assign the dollars on that visit to my West Advantage account.


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

^^^^^^^^Yikes. As an associate; I think that is pretty bad. He could have sent an email and corrected the error pretty easily. 

OK, so here's a story of why West Marine Pi$$es *ME* off:

Friday at about 5:30PM (pacific time) a customer comes in. He states that he wants to order a Norcold fridge, but that he's talked to norcold several times, and they told him the fridge was updated to use a danfoss compressor, and he wants to make sure that he gets a new one and not an old one.

I ask when they made the switch, he doesn't know. I ask if there's a different model designation, he doesn't know. I look in our systems and see the warehouse has 7, and that they last received 11 of them on Jan 15th. So clearly what we have are pretty 'new' but seriously, I can't exactly have someone jump in a forklift and pull a fridge from a MASSIVE wharehouse and open a crate to inspect this thing, at night, on a weekend.

I explain that the only way to know is to call norcold on Monday and customer agrees.

11am Monday, _my day off_ I call norcold, find out that in fact they made the switch in december and all the ones we have are new.

MEANWHILE, the customer calls the store and rips into a co-worker telling her he's a busy man, has better things to do than wait by the phone "all day" for a call from us.

She tells him that we've already ordered one in, it will be here Thursday and he's under no obligation to buy it if it's not correct, he agrees to this.

Tuesday morning he calls back and says that due to a lack of communication from us, he's buying elsewhere.

The customer got GREAT customer service, and yet, he thinks he was mistreated, by idiots. And that is kinda frustrating


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## wm1999 (Apr 18, 2007)

xymotic said:


> ^^^^^^^^Yikes. As an associate; I think that is pretty bad. He could have sent an email and corrected the error pretty easily.
> 
> OK, so here's a story of why West Marine Pi$$es *ME* off:
> 
> ...


I would say this is an example of the customer experience 8 out of 10 receive, it's the other 2 that everybody hears about though. It is extremely hard to make everyone happy, but that is the goal.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

xymotic said:


> ^^^^^^^^Yikes. As an associate; I think that is pretty bad. He could have sent an email and corrected the error pretty easily.
> 
> OK, so here's a story of why West Marine Pi$$es *ME* off:
> 
> ...


Let's face it. For some people, no matter what you do for them, enough will never be enough. I wonder sometimes why it seems that people don't consider others during the course of their daily routines. It doesn't inconvenience me in the least to do something as simple as hold a door for a lady, or even a guy, rather than let it close in their face, and yet I see people doing exactly that on a daily basis. Just look at the consideration you are likely to get on your daily drive to work. People cut you off just so that they can be in front of you rather than behind.

One of the things that motivate me to achieve my live-aboard dream, get debt free, save some cruising money, and head offshore is the fact that the sailing community seems much more close-knit, more friendly, and more considerate of their neighbors. I'm sure there will be a few that don't follow that trend, maybe even a few that need their heads thumped, but on the whole I've found my relatively short marina life experiences to be positive even though I had one of two sailboats in the whole marina. I really didn't take the threat of the powerboaters "cutting those ropes if they slapped the pole all night" very seriously, although I did make sure my halyards didn't slap the mast out of courtesy to my neighbors.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Dean101 said:


> Let's face it. For some people, no matter what you do for them, enough will never be enough.


That's the entitlement mentality. I'd love to do a survey of people who do/don't hold the door for others, to see if they are mostly liberal or conservative, or libertarian. Maybe there's a correlation, maybe not.

Regards,
Brad


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Bene505 said:


> That's the entitlement mentality. I'd love to do a survey of people who do/don't hold the door for others, to see if they are mostly liberal or conservative, or libertarian. Maybe there's a correlation, maybe not.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


I think you will probably find that it will break down demographically by age, not political persuasion.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

DRFerron said:


> Agreed. That was a pretty dumb statement. Shoes? Heck. I'd buy everything online if I could. Mostly for the convenience and now shipping is less expensive (and lots of places have free shipping as an incentive to buy) then all the gas I'd use.


Off topic, but given the different sizing systems used now that China is king I can't even imagine buying shoes on line. It's too frustrating in the store as it is! "Free return for sizing"? Who cares! Life's too short and I can't be bothered! But then...I can't be bothered by the silliness I experienced at WM stores near me. So, there in lies the difference between the dedicated WM customer and me! According to the P&L statement, there are a lot more of them, than me. So maybe we can agree that "dumb" is sometimes a matter of perspective. BTW, you left out the sales tax you probably avoid online.You might view that as a benefit, I see it as a loophole contributing to our deficits. So, that again, is a matter or perspective.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

L124C said:


> So maybe we can agree that "dumb" is sometimes a matter of perspective.


We can.



L124C said:


> BTW, you left out the sales tax you probably avoid online.


I didn't even consider it. In Pennsylvania, where I live, we don't pay sales tax on food, clothing and shoes anyway so that's half of my online purchases. And I am charged sales tax online for any store that has a brick and mortar store in the state, so that brings us back to West Marine (closest one to us in PA is over 50 miles away - and it may even have closed) as well as my books.

Not much left so in my case I don't consider it a loophole.

As to clothing sizing, I shop at maybe three clothing stores so I know what works for me. Same goes for shoes.


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## tpothen (May 17, 2009)

Seen as people usually only post negative reviews I will post my experience the other day at WM. I will admit I only shop their when I need something and don't want to wait for shipping.

I needed a couple feet of 6ga cable so I walked in the store and the younger sales guy asks I if I need help finding anything. Not really thinking I just asked where the cable was, his response was rigging cable, lifeline type, or electrical. I say electrical, we walked right to it and he points saying this is your basic cable and this is your tinned cable. He cuts my couple feet of tinned, I pay, and am on my way. Seems like the sales person knew his stuff.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

West is consolidating 2 stores that are about 15 miles apart into one 24,000 sqft new store that will open in 2 weeks. When I'm not in a rush I buy online but it's nice to have what you need nearby when your in the middle of a project.
Jim


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## Mobnets (Apr 24, 2011)

My local West Marine store (Bloomington, MN) is staffed by friendly, helpful, generally knowledgeable folks who are very customer-oriented. I'm happy to have a marine specialty store that stocks sailboat gear less than 15 minutes from home. They are convenient and helpful and bend over backwards to get me the right information, order something for me, etc. etc.

Do I generally pay more for shopping there . . yep! (although I do use coupons, hit the sale items and clearance areas pretty heavily, etc.) I see them as a marine convenience store and accept I may pay more for the convenience! Online ordering is great, and I do some of my marine shopping there, but online doesn't help me on Friday afternoon, when I want or need something for that weekend's projects or sailing. West Marine does! Sometimes it's nice to see, feel, hear (like the fancy cabin fan I bought there last year) what you're thinking about buying.

If they don't have something in stock, they don't try to sell me something similar I really don't want . . . they order it for me and call me promptly when it's in. These orders always have arrived on the day stated and with the correct items.

I have always enjoyed shopping at this West Marine (8 years) and have never been dissatisfied with any shopping experience I've had with them.

Finally, I have no financial or commercial interest in or relationship with West Marine, whatsoever. Nor do I know any of the staff at my store personally.

Mobnets
1973 Chance 32/28 "Westwind"


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## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

I basically don't buy at WM, however they are convient at times and when I go back to MD next week I'll get a sun hat there. My last experience was last fall when the boat was hauled out at a local boat yard. The yard was having a sale on bottom paint and I just wanted to check to make sure that their price was truely a bargin. I went to WM and asked what their price was. "What color do you want", was the clerk's response. I just want to know the price, but then I thought there might be a difference in price due to the color. I said, "red, and how much per gallon is that price?" Without answering my question, he next asked let's see if we have that in stock. As he went to the computer I just said I only want to know the price. Again he did not answer and when he saw that he had it in stock, he said how many gallons do you want? By this time I was getting annoyed and said just give me the price...which he finally did. 

I usually wait for their sales to buy anything at WM however one time I noted that one of their sales items that I was in the market for was actually sold at a local store at a lesser price than their sale. And their price match is a not really a price match considering that when I take the defender catelog to the store, they will match the price and factor in the shipping cost, but refuse to factor in the sales tax so that your true out of pocket cost will be more at WM. 

The positive is that they are convenient, their return policy is good, and there are some good knowledgeable people that work there.


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

West Marine does NOT add shipping to an online price match. They did in the past but do not now.

I don't really know why you'd be annoyed that he asked color, if you have to look up something to quote a price, you might as well look up the right thing, no?

Sure, he could have just walked back to the isle, but then the store may or may not have it, so it makes sense to just start there. And 99.99999% of the time, the next question is "do you have any" and then it's "do any other local stores have it" and then it's "how long to get it" so he might have just been thinking 5 steps ahead and saving you time by starting with a computer lookup with all of the info in one place.


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## billsull (Jul 8, 2007)

jimrafford said:


> West is consolidating 2 stores that are about 15 miles apart into one 24,000 sqft new store that will open in 2 weeks.


It's actually 3 stores being consolidated. I know because I worked at one of them for ten years every weekend up until they closed the store a few weeks ago. I decided to "retire" from that career for my own reasons, but I suppose I could have gone on to work at the new store if I wanted to - it's practically within walking distance of my home.

I started working at West when my kids were starting college and I got the sense that my wife didn't share my priorities when it came to education vs. boating expenses.  I figured that I would earn a few bucks and take advantage of the discount. I stayed there because I made a lot of good friends, both co-workers and customers. My few hours there on a Saturday became a chance to talk boats and play with the new "toys." I think it was a fair exchange for WM and the customers because I do have a decent marine resume and have owned boats for 40+ years - let's just say that I know my tinned wire! I can think of 4 other long time co-workers that were there at the end (and many more former co-workers) that each had decades of boating experience.

Now WM has gone to a "big-box format" and our little store is gone. As this "WM flame" thread (and many others) have shown, West already has an employee experience and training image problem. I'm not sure that the extra space in the new store will solve that.


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

Well, I work at a small-ish store, and a big gripe I hear is well, defender or fisheries have it in stock, if I'm going to order it why not get it from them (tax free)
So the bigger stores should at least address that problem. A pet peeve of mine too BTW, defender *should* have everything in stock in their one location.

If I tell people West has 19 scattered around the country, they still get ticked that we don't have it in our little store, right now.

From a corporate perspective, I think it makes a lot of sense, it takes a lot less resources to support 1 store than three.

There will be some backlash though, Places like Gig Harbor or Shilshole in Seattle are not going to have a west to kick around any more


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Even if the perfect solution is discovered, some people will inevitably find something to complain about.


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## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

There's nothing wrong with a clerk asking me for what color of paint I wanted. It's the failure to respond to a direct question that was annoying. Not once but several times without so much as .....wait and I'll get you an answer. It's good to hear that WM no longer factors in shipping charges in their price match....I spent some time in the past complaining about that policy. 

I'ld rather spend my money at a store that doesn't price match, but instead takes the lead in lower prices. Competition is important in keeping prices down in an over inflated marine marketplace and giving business to those companies(such as Defender) that are a leader in promoting lower prices IMHO is money well spent.


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## dennisvetter (Apr 26, 2007)

Having worked in West Marine for 3 years part-time I have to weigh in in support of the company (I no longer work there). It's not the greatest paying job in the world ... actually the pay is quite low but the employee discounts are pretty good so it attracts people who are into boating and gearing up their boats ... so, at least the employees have knowledge in some areas and, presumably, an interest in learning more. I always felt like I learned as much or more from the customers as I taught them!

Where you are being very unfair is that boats are rather like cars in the early days ... there are so many variations and they are kept alive so long that the breadth of knowledge required is rather daunting. Additionally, vendors are constantly putting a plethora of new products on the market so it's a real effort to stay on top of all of the changes when it's a part-time job! (There's not a lot of customers in the PNW in the Winter you know). 

As employees we always kept track of each other's areas of expertise and drew upon it when we were out of our league. Sometimes, no one on duty would know the answer. 

It's not a perfect world and not a perfect company but the local, disorganized, gruff chandleries pale in comparison to WM in my opinion. 

So instead of being a gruff, frustrated customer ... be kind and educate the sales person if you know something they don't. Perhaps they'll pass it on to their next customer.


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## wm1999 (Apr 18, 2007)

A business model based on having the lowest price will fail. There will always be someone who will sell it cheaper. It's every consumer's decision to decide the value of the product. The definition of value varies from from consumer to consumer though. I will say that Defender isn't always the least expensive, there are many other online only retailers as well as West Marine that have lower prices on some things. I personally don't think West Marine is trying to take advantage of consumers, they are running a business. One that by looking at the year end reports, earned about 3% of their total sales in operating income. They may have high prices, but they have many locations, offer by far the largest selection, and in my experience care about the boating community. But everyone gets to choose where they get their boating supplies, I choose to get mine at West Marine. Even if I do have to get them to price match.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

dennisvetter said:


> It's not a perfect world and not a perfect company but the local, disorganized, gruff chandleries pale in comparison to WM in my opinion.


Visit Victoria. 
The chandleries that compete with WM are much better over here.
Not gruff, not disorganized, and with very knowledgeable staff.


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

I've never been, but I have met the Victoria WM Store Manager and she was quite pleasant as well


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

I really like West Marine here in Hawaii. They sell good products for the most part, sales people are knowledgable, and their return policy is good. I normally try to buy when things are on sale and with their rebate program prices are not out of line when compared to other suppliers.

If I buy online from anyone other than WM, shipping is usually the same cost as the product (there is no "ground" ship rate to Hawaii- it all goes by air). With WM I can order as much stuff as I want and I pay a flat $20 for air frieght for all.

I also like the WM catalog- you can learn quite a bit by reading the information sections. That is a great service they do and I do not know of any other supplier that has such a good catalog.

They just closed there old store and built from the ground up a new 40,000 sq foot superstore in Honlulu- hey they are even helping out the construction industy so lets give them a break.
Aloha


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

*Give them a break?*



casey1999 said:


> I really like West Marine here in Hawaii......
> They just closed there old store and built from the ground up a new 40,000 sq foot superstore in Honlulu- hey they are even helping out the construction industry so lets give them a break.
> Aloha


I'm glad WM serves you well. However "give them a break"? As someone in the construction industry - Give ME a break! They are building that store to improve their bottom line. No more, no less. WM helps out WM, which is fine. However, please don't act like they are a NPO, "helping out" my industry.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

*Re: Give them a break?*



L124C said:


> I'm glad WM serves you well. However "give them a break"? As someone in the construction industry - Give ME a break! They are building that store to improve their bottom line. No more, no less. WM helps out WM, which is fine. However, please don't act like they are a NPO, "helping out" my industry.


Welcome to Capitalism. If you do not like it there are a lot of non-capitalist countries that would love to have someone with your skills.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Great! Another huge box, full of "Associates" who don't know squat about their over-priced merchandise.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

*Re: Give them a break?*



L124C said:


> I'm glad WM serves you well. However "give them a break"? As someone in the construction industry - Give ME a break! They are building that store to improve their bottom line. No more, no less. WM helps out WM, which is fine. However, please don't act like they are a NPO, "helping out" my industry.


I think the WM Superstore they built in Newport (Middletown technically) is far superior to the old store, which was among the larger in the first place. When Ive been to the tiny WM in Naragansett, it's frustrating that they have so little inventory.

They have certainly frustrated me in other ways, but they are clearly doing what their profitable customers want. No business can stay open by trying to make everyone happy. You have to make your profitable customers happy. Their financial results imply they are, particulalrly given the economic downturn.

The really cool thing is that everyone gets a vote. But, when it comes to retail, those that spend more (with WM) get more votes.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

SlowButSteady said:


> Great! Another huge box, full of "Associates" who don't know squat about their over-priced merchandise.


You cannot blame the companies like WM, Homedepot, Target, Wallmart for building big stores, they are only supplying what customers want. So then we are the problem.

Also interesting how posts on this site talk about how to save money by buying from so and so or doing the price match thing. Well what we are doing is what any company is trying to do---Save Money-- so we have more in the bank. Not necessarily wrong, in fact it is good, doing things most efficiently and at lowest cost.

The problem I have is that a lot of goods are cheaply made and use low quality materials (stainless for example). But seems we the customer are to blame for buying the junk, not the company selling it. If we start buying quality- that is what will be stocked in the stores.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

dennisvetter said:


> Having worked in West Marine for 3 years part-time I have to weigh in in support of the company (I no longer work there). It's not the greatest paying job in the world ... actually the pay is quite low but the employee discounts are pretty good so it attracts people who are into boating and gearing up their boats ... so, at least the employees have knowledge in some areas and, presumably, an interest in learning more. I always felt like I learned as much or more from the customers as I taught them!
> 
> Where you are being very unfair is that boats are rather like cars in the early days ... there are so many variations and they are kept alive so long that the breadth of knowledge required is rather daunting. Additionally, vendors are constantly putting a plethora of new products on the market so it's a real effort to stay on top of all of the changes when it's a part-time job! (There's not a lot of customers in the PNW in the Winter you know).
> 
> So instead of being a gruff, frustrated customer ... be kind and educate the sales person if you know something they don't. Perhaps they'll pass it on to their next customer.


The OP was about a clerk not knowing what tinned wire was. Nothing esoteric or complicated about that! I had many similar experiences. I think one thing this thread points out is that there seems to be little continuity country wide at WM regarding training, customer service and inventory control. The experiences some have described seem like a completely different stores! I'm in the SF Bay Area, so the low wages may have something to do with it (turnover, caliber of employee etc.). 
For the prices I (used to) pay at WM, I shouldn't need to "educate" the sales staff! After all....it's certainly NOT a discount house. I think we can all agree on that!


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

SlowButSteady said:


> Great! Another huge box, full of "Associates" who don't know squat about their over-priced merchandise.


It's not that they do not know squat, it's that we sailnetters are just too smart.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

An acquaintance worked at WM. He said their policy was to accept any return. Guy returned a used head. They called corporate and were told to have him take it around to the dumpster. 

That has to count for something.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

*Huh???*



casey1999 said:


> Welcome to Capitalism. If you do not like it there are a lot of non-capitalist countries that would love to have someone with your skills.


I'll say it agiain, as I don't know what else to say!....Huh?


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

L124C said:


> The OP was about a clerk not knowing what tinned wire was. Nothing esoteric or complicated about that! I had many similar experiences. I think one thing this thread points out is that there seems to be little continuity country wide at WM regarding training, customer service and inventory control. The experiences some have described seem like a completely different stores! I'm in the SF Bay Area, so the low wages may have something to do with it (turnover, caliber of employee etc.).
> For the prices I (used to) pay at WM, I shouldn't need to "educate" the sales staff! After all....it's certainly NOT a discount house. I think we can all agree on that!


I've done a lot of price comparisons on different marine products from both on line sources and brick an mortar stores. I do not find WM totally out of line on prices. Some things they are more expensive, some less. In general all marine stores are expensive, and when you factor in shipping cost, the online sources prices (total cost) will vary, even though an item is cheaper, the shipping may be more expensive. I find today, because of the economy and people having maybe switch jobs a lot, or stores hiring low wage employess, the knowledge of the sales people may not be great. But today we have the internet and a wealth of information at our finger tips- it is truly amazing.

So educate ourselves and become the expert.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

L124C said:


> ..... I think one thing this thread points out is that there seems to be little continuity country wide at WM regarding training, customer service and inventory control.....


I would agree with that. One would think they could sell more if more believed they were a good knowledge resource, not just convenient inventory.


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

deniseO30 said:


> They were in shock that someone would think of buying it there? No really, to expect knowledge is just wrong, lol
> 
> This is best place to buy wire according to most boat owners here.
> Genuinedealz > Marine Wire, Boat Wire, Boat Cable, Marine Grade $1.97 ft
> ...


A little late but,,, thanks for posting that site. It's always good to know where the deals are.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

Kend4erMe said:


> It is nice to know now why it is "marine" wire and not just regular wire


I'll agree. I've learned a bit from this thread about wire. I still have a lot to learn though, and feel as though I'm starting from 2 scratches rather than one. You see, before I owned a boat and started reading about maintenance issues and troubleshooting, I never knew that marine wire was tinned unlike, apparently, everyone else in the world.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

> .... I think one thing this thread points out is that there seems to be little continuity country wide at WM regarding training, customer service and inventory control.....


Any large retail enterprise is only as good as the store management.

I broke the plastic blade ends off my Walker Bay dinghy oars (through my own fault), went to WM looking to buy new blades. They replaced them free (no receipt or proof of purchase required). But not only did they replace them free, they took the ends off their display model since they had none in stock, so that I didn't have to come back after they got some in.


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## MarioG (Sep 6, 2009)

At first I couldn't stand WM but the ease of being able to take back the junk the 1st mate gets there seems to work out well. I don't mind paying for quality and wish I didn't need to take back things as often as we do, but as long as we can we will continue buying most of our marine needs from them.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

PBzeer said:


> Any large retail enterprise is only as good as the store management.
> 
> I broke the plastic blade ends off my Walker Bay dinghy oars (through my own fault), went to WM looking to buy new blades. They replaced them free (no receipt or proof of purchase required). But not only did they replace them free, they took the ends off their display model since they had none in stock, so that I didn't have to come back after they got some in.


The other nice thing about WM is that you can buy online if that is what you like to do, but if you later need to return for credit, warranty, or exchange, you can do that at a store- saves you the shipping cost. They normally keep track of your purchase through their advantage program so you do not need a receipt.


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## redfishnc (Jan 22, 2017)

Our local WM has a couple of boating liveaboards and they are helpful. The others vary in experience. I price match them on everything I can and I try to be the smart shopper. I do business with them because I don't want them to close. 15 minutes from my house and 10 minutes from the boat. May they live long and prosper.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

casey1999 said:


> I've done a lot of price comparisons on different marine products from both on line sources and brick an mortar stores. I do not find WM totally out of line on prices. Some things they are more expensive, some less. In general all marine stores are expensive, and when you factor in shipping cost, the online sources prices (total cost) will vary, even though an item is cheaper, the shipping may be more expensive. I find today, because of the economy and people having maybe switch jobs a lot, or stores hiring low wage employees, the knowledge of the sales people may not be great. But today we have the internet and a wealth of information at our finger tips- it is truly amazing. So educate ourselves and become the expert.


I said WM is not a discount house, and should therefore have competent employees. It's not that WM is "out of line". Most of the the industry is in lock step, screwing us because the products they sell are labeled "marine". I guess it starts with the fact that we all know that some marine products do have to be more robust than similar items that exist on land, and therefore, cost more. However, the industry seems to use that fact to charge exorbitant prices, which many customers seem more than willing not only to pay, but rationalize! Clearly demonstrated in this thread, and even more pointedly here:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/53056-please-least-use-some-ky.html
Regarding "education". I'm learning all the time about what it takes to keep my boat afloat. Being a tradesman, I have an running start on the average boat owner. Even given that, it can be challenging, but I enjoy the process (usually!) However, It's not what I do for a living and I shouldn't have to become an "expert" to maintain the boat. Given the prices at WM, and the fact that many of the people who go there are neophytes, (compared to a Chandlery) the clerks certainly should know what tinned wire is!


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

L124C said:


> I said WM is not a discount house, and should therefore have competent employees. It's not that WM is "out of line". Most of the the industry is in lock step, screwing us because the products they sell are labeled "marine". I guess it starts with the fact that we all know that some marine products do have to be more robust than similar items that exist on land, and therefore, cost more. However, the industry seems to use that fact to charge exorbitant prices, which many customers seem more than willing not only to pay, but rationalize! Clearly demonstrated in this thread, and even more pointedly here:
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/53056-please-least-use-some-ky.html
> Regarding "education". I'm learning all the time about what it takes to keep my boat afloat. Being a tradesman, I have an running start on the average boat owner. Even given that, it can be challenging, but I enjoy the process (usually!) However, It's not what I do for a living and I shouldn't have to become an "expert" to maintain the boat. Given the prices at WM, and the fact that many of the people who go there are neophytes, (compared to a Chandlery) the clerks certainly should know what tinned wire is!


What concerns me more than the knowledge of the employee is being able to buy genuine good quality marine gear. There is so much counterfit or junk merchandise flooding the market now it is hard to buy good quality items. I would like to find a Chandlery that sells only excellant quality marine gear that is made of top quality materials, and I am willing to pay the price for this equipment. I have not found a Chandlery like this, some have existed, but have gone out of buisness. I actually was considering opening maybe and online store like this, but I do not think the buisness would do well. Most marine customers do not want to pay for top quality gear. And that is why WM can sell some of the low quality stuff they stock.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I really hate when the exact same part is sold as a "marine" product and we are charged more. 

However, marine stores often charge more for things in general because they sell less and have fewer transactions to recoup initial investment. There are thousands of times more homes or cars than boats and demand follows.

The appropriate level of profit is only relevant as it relates to how much was invested to earn it. You might make a million, but that's great if you invested 10 million. If you invested a billion, you should close up and put your money in a savings account.

WM is making a bit better than 10% on their shareholders equity. That's a minimum expectation of investors that take the risk of losing their investment, no guarantee. They charge more, because they invest more. I do wish more of that investment was in training.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Perhaps because its Long Island BUT both the Hungition and Bayshore store do employ some staff with a fair amount of sailing knowledge and while you have to be aware of your prices nobody makes you go there


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> Most marine customers do not want to pay for top quality gear


.

You are kidding right?



> And that is why WM can sell some of the low quality stuff they stock. -cASEY1999


People will not buy low quality stuff if the do the research and not all their stuff is low quality.

Now thats quite a broad brush stroke. Wrong on both counts


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> .
> 
> You are kidding right?
> 
> ...


I would still stand by my statements. There are some marine stores that sell nothing but low quality and they are still in business- most of these stores seem geared more to power boaters.

And my second statement I state people still buy some of the low quality stuff thaty WM stocks, which is true. I am not saying WM only stocks low quality stuff.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I really hate when the exact same part is sold as a "marine" product and we are charged more.
> 
> However, marine stores often charge more for things in general because they sell less and have fewer transactions to recoup initial investment. There are thousands of times more homes or cars than boats and demand follows.


Thats the "economy of scale" argument that was proposed in the thread I cited earlier. Here is my response:
I asked the owner of Whale Point how he was able to sell the head seat for $30, when WM sells it for $80. He laughed, and said: "Because I only make the profit I NEED to make". Turns out that because he is a ACE dealer, he has a relationship with the manufacturer who also manufactures most household toilet seats. However, the "economy of scale" is the same, and his little store certainly sells a lot less than WM!


Minnewaska said:


> The appropriate level of profit is only relevant as it relates to how much was invested to earn it. You might make a million, but that's great if you invested 10 million. If you invested a billion, you should close up and put your money in a savings account.
> WM is making a bit better than 10% on their shareholders equity. That's a minimum expectation of investors that take the risk of losing their investment, no guarantee. They charge more, because they invest more. I do wish more of that investment was in training.


However, isn't there a lot that can happen to the funds between the Gross earnings and the Net? Big executive salaries, bonuses, expansion, etc.?
Can't they decide on the 10%? (Out of my depth here )


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

L124C said:


> .....However, isn't there a lot that can happen to the funds between the Gross earnings and the Net? Big executive salaries, bonuses, expansion, etc.?
> Can't they decide on the 10%? (Out of my depth here )


Not really. It's a public company that has to compete for talent as well. Their CEO made a million dollars last year, half in salary and half in bonus, after increasing profits for the shareholders. He doesn't own the place himself. The next highest paid was their CFO as 600k and down from there.

I don't think these salaries are out of line for running 300 stores nationwide and having international business. That's a 24-7 job.

Edit.... In fact I know lawyers, investment bankers, engineers, and others that make more for doing much less.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Not really. It's a public company that has to compete for talent as well. *Their CEO made a million dollars last year, half in salary and half in bonus, after increasing profits for the shareholders.* He doesn't own the place himself. *The next highest paid was their CFO as 600k and down from there.*
> 
> I don't think these salaries are out of line for running 300 stores nationwide and having international business. That's a 24-7 job.
> 
> Edit.... In fact I know lawyers, investment bankers, engineers, and others that make more for doing much less.


Hey! Are you hiring???

I am currently running the entire channel sales organization, and directly managing all of North American reseller partners - over 600 of 'em - for my employer. They're bringing in a lot of dough, and it could easily be a 24 x 7 job. I'd drop that like a hot potato for _half _of what the WM CFO makes.

I know that lawyers and Investment bankers that make more for doing less... I believe that this is the issue that the Occupy Wall Street movement was about, until the hippies and anarchists subjugated their protest.

The point is that just because they are doing, and getting away with it, it doesn't make it right. Given the choice of dealing with the Ace Hardware guy, or WM; the guy from Ace will win my business every time. I prefer to try to do business with people that are not trying to $crew me...

I would like to know about the engineers making over $1M for doing less though. I guess that if they are making that kind of coin, they probably have a lucrative patent, which is providing them royalties from other people who are also making big bucks, in which case, I believe that they earned it honestly.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> The point is that just because they are doing, and getting away with it, it doesn't make it right. Given the choice of dealing with the Ace Hardware guy, or WM; the guy from Ace will win my business every time. I prefer to try to do business with people that are not trying to $crew me...


Thats what I do. Unfortunately, most boat owners take the $crewing in favor of convenience. In fact, in a prior post, a member said that he patronized WM because they are convenient for him and he didn't want them to go out of business! I say vote with your feet. Let them improve their service and prices or fade away. I'm obviously in the minority, and WM (and Marine retailers in general) know it!


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

L124C, I did a little sleuthing and it appears that Whale Point Ace Hardware is off of Cutting in Richmond. I’m guessing that it is near your boat so why don’t you shop there instead of bashing West? You can also shop at KKMI where I am sure, you will get the expert advice you seek. If you want West to change their policies, why don’t you buy some stock and voice your complaints during the open mike session at the annual stockholder’s meeting – they are held in the Bay Area so traveling isn’t much of an issue and you will be able to confront the corporate officers directly.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

*QC must cost more than a Million dollars!*



Minnewaska said:


> I don't think these salaries are out of line for running 300 stores nationwide and having international business. That's a 24-7 job.


Well....the CEO is apparently in over his head when TOMMAYS reports in #145: "Perhaps because its Long Island BUT both the Hungition and Bayshore store do employ some staff with a fair amount of sailing knowledge". Meanwhile, in stores near me on the West Coast, there MAY be one or two employees (in BIG stores) who could tell you the difference between a Main Sheet and a Jib Sheet! And Long Island, ain't exactly in the Boonies, so that shoots down my "Bay Area economy/employee turnover theory". Sounds like they should achieve continuity among fewer stores, THEN expand to 300. But hey...like you said, they are profitable so.....


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

1) The kid at West Marine working his first summer job for $9/hour is not "trying to $crew you" Get over yourself.

2) When you use a product for a month and then decide that you don't really like it, the guy at Ace hardware will likely not be as accommodating as West will be.

3) THe local Ace hardware, no matter how good they are, will not have instant access to the 600 thousand items that West has, in stock, in their warehouse(s)

4) Nationwide, you might indeed find an incredibly knowledgeable sailor at Ace Hardware, but I'm betting the odds of getting actual help @ West Marine would be FAR higher than the Hardware store.

5) I actually LOVE the comparison to ace, my local ACE ***SUCKS*** they have nothing in stock, the employees don't know where a faucet *is* much less how to install one. I have been to other ACE's that were truly amazing places to shop. SO I think it's more than a little unfair to paint West Marine with a broad brush and not apply the same color to others


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

*"Guess" again!*



GeorgeB said:


> L124C, I did a little sleuthing and it appears that Whale Point Ace Hardware is off of Cutting in Richmond. I'm guessing that it is near your boat so why don't you shop there instead of bashing West? You can also shop at KKMI where I am sure, you will get the expert advice you seek. If you want West to change their policies, why don't you buy some stock and voice your complaints during the open mike session at the annual stockholder's meeting - they are held in the Bay Area so traveling isn't much of an issue and you will be able to confront the corporate officers directly.


With all due respect - I suggest you scan the thread before criticizing posts. You didn't have to do much "sleuthing" as I provided a link to Whale Point. You are "guessing" wrong. I'm on the Peninsula (the other side of the bay, and probably 20-30 miles from Whale Point). Yet...I make a concerted effort to patronize the store (compiling lists for future projects, etc.) so that I can shop there when I'm in the area. But then...I actually hang my clothes to dry in the sun despite the fact that I have a brand new front loading washer and dryer. So... that shows you what an idealistic weirdo I am!
As I indicated earlier, I generally get anything I need quickly from SF Boatworks, while WM would be MUCH more convenient. Boatwork's (and KKMI BTW) "advice" can be sketchy, but at least they know what I'm talking about!
Buy stock in a company I don't believe in? Not going to happen! 
As indicated earlier in the thread, I did complain to WM corporate when I shopped there in the past. They assured me things were changing...they never did. So, I voted with my feet. I wish more customers would do the same if they believe they are not receiving good value and service. That is what would change "policy's" at WM and the industry in general. Instead, I hear them grumbling about how they got ripped off by people who don't know anything about boats. If WM works for you, thats great! I honestly wish they worked for me, but they don't. As far as "bashing West"...Did you read the title to the thread before you joined it? I'm apparently not the only one bashing poor little WM!


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

L124C, sorry, but this 150+ post diatribe on West is a little over the top for me and I’m not wasting a whole lot time plumbing it’s depths for true meaning and nuance. I apologize for not hanging on every word you’ve written on this subject. I am impressed however, that you would travel from the Peninsula over to Richmond (the meth capital of Alameda county) to buy a toilet seat. And, to go down to Watsonville to corporate to complain. Impressive. I’m sorry to hear that you are not that impressed with KKMI, they do have the reputation for being the premier boatyard in Northern California. Have you talked to Keefe or Kaplan about the level of service in their chandlery? I’m afraid that you wouldn’t be too happy with Svendsen’s counter service either. Like most folk’s, I shop for bargains the best I can and I seek advice from the most knowledgeable people I can find. I just don’t get hung up about it if I can’t get both in the same venue.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

I think part of the "problem" is that we live in a very complex world. Look at all the technology (marine electronics) and materials (paints, fiberglass, coatings), marine fittings, and hardware we have to choose from. It is bewildering, and to try to keep pace is more than a full time job. This is not only in the marine industry, but covers all industrial, commercial, and construction. 

We are all only human and I think for the most part people try their best to help you and give you the product or service you are looking for. Somtimes the customer and product/service provider need to work together to get to that point. As long as we do not PO each other in the process, I got no problems. It took me a while to figure this out, both in my line of work and when off work, but life is much easier when you realize this.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Several decades ago there were stores in every category that knew what they sold and how to install or use it. Whether you were buying marine equipment, building materials, a pair of shoes or pants, or a standing rib roast the staff in many stores were knowledgeable and helpful.

Wal Mart was probable the first crack in the knowledge base, followed by Home Depot, Costco, Sam's, and dozens of other warehouse type stores. Then came the internet and it worsened further. 

Stores that are helpful and knowledgeable still exist if you search, in almost any category. 

The sad part is that so many customers seem to be happy with mediocrity.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

... but you are missing the point: poor help at a reasonable price is OK. When I go into HD / Walmart etc. I do not expect any service, but I do expect low prices.

However, when I go into a boating specialty store like West Marine, and they don't know what the basic characteristics of marine grade wire are, yet they charge the premium that WM exacts - so that the CEO can make $1M and CFO can make $600K, while the kid working the aisles for $9/hr (that would be $18K/year) - I get pi$$ed off. The customer is getting ripped off, and kid in the aisle is being exploited.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I agree that the fault lies with management and not the kid making $9/hour. The fault also lies with the customer who shops there and puts up with it. If one isn't happy with the service/knowledge/price then shop elsewhere, don't help pay for the CEO's salary and bonus.

I think this is more important in an industry where knowledgeable staff is what the customer wants or needs. Less so at Wal Mart.


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## redfishnc (Jan 22, 2017)

Oh please let sailing season start soon before we all go mad or worse, go to our favorite WM and walk around just looking and enjoying it. The horror of it all.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

*Premiere boatyard in the Meth Capitol? Who Knew!*



GeorgeB said:


> L124C, sorry, but this 150+ post diatribe on West is a little over the top for me and I'm not wasting a whole lot time plumbing it's depths for true meaning and nuance. I apologize for not hanging on every word you've written on this subject. I am impressed however, that you would travel from the Peninsula over to Richmond (the meth capital of Alameda county) to buy a toilet seat. And, to go down to Watsonville to corporate to complain. Impressive. I'm sorry to hear that you are not that impressed with KKMI, they do have the reputation for being the premier boatyard in Northern California. Have you talked to Keefe or Kaplan about the level of service in their chandlery? I'm afraid that you wouldn't't be too happy with Svendsen's counter service either. Like most folk's, I shop for bargains the best I can and I seek advice from the most knowledgeable people I can find. I just don't get hung up about it if I can't get both in the same venue.


I take back the respect I gave you, as it has become obvious none was due. "Plumb the depths"? How about simply reading the posts you are criticizing before making suggestions that have already been covered? If you don't want to at least do that, probably best not to post. 
I never indicated I bought the seat from Whale or "drove" to WM's HQ. I emailed West Marine, including pictures of an aisle with approximately 30% empty bins where products were supposed to be. As I recall, they were out of 3M 5200 for about 3 weeks (pretty basic item for a Marine store, don't ya think?).
BTW...Don't know what "Meth" has to do with the thread, but your beloved KKMI ("the premier boatyard") is across the street from Whale Marine... Deep in the heart of Meth Central (according to you). WM also has a store there. Oh, wait a minute...in reviewing your response, I think I may see relevance of Meth...rather speedy, without much thought! 
Please...think before you post!


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Sorry to rub you the wrong way. I thought a little sarcasm would have illustrated my point in a humorous way. Obviously, you feel very strongly about whatever West did or did not do for you. If you don’t like them, don’t shop there. I don’t shop at places that I don’t like either and in that way we are the same. I don’t want to be antagonistic but is it the San Carlos store that you have had trouble with? I don’t know if you know the back story behind West’s recent stock prices, but a while back they had some problems with distribution, warehousing and too many locations after they bought out BoatUS. To get out of their financial bind, they are reduced inventory and are making each store more specialized in order to improve turn-over. For example, the Alameda store has a complete rig shop and is very sail boat and cruiser centric. This increased competition has even made Svendsen’s lower their prices. I believe San Carlos is more for the speedboat/fishing set and that might explain why the little store bunny wasn’t up on her AYBC codes. You may not like the business model, but it has improved their stock position (of which I’m glad, being a stockholder and all that.) They might be bigger than the mom and pop chandleries but they are by no means dominant enough to control supplier prices. Again, I didn’t mean to make you so upset. On a side note I was going to call Richmond the murder capital of Alameda County, but I think that Oakland leads in the body count so far this year.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

What percentage upcharge would you say WM is "ripping off" their customer by? 10%, 20%, 30?

They had $640 million in net revenue last year. If that only contained 5% up charging, that would be over $30 million. I suspect most think they upcharge by more, so make the excess revenue whatever you like.

The point is, that is greater than the entirely of all executive compensation combined by many times over.

The higher pricing is paying for stores and inventory, not compensation.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

So interesting to read how many really are against the free market system apparently. Sellers get to decide what they will sell something for, buyers get to decide how much they are willing to buy.

When I owned a bicycle shop I learned that no one goes out of business by charging a higher price. But it was pretty easy to go out of business by charging too low a price.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

PBzeer said:


> Person asks if they can help. Person is unable to answer question. Person asks associate if they know. Associate doesn't know. They then look up item in catalog to determine proper answer to question. Find and answer the question. Customer leaves with what he wanted.
> 
> And the problem here is ... just what is the problem anyway? Sounds like an excellent example of customer service.


Yes, Worst Marine carries a lot of various things, for all kinds of systems. I don't think you can expect all associates to be versed in all items in the store. I used to work in the Plumbing Department in Home Depot, and I often had to fill in other departments (especially electrical) and had no clue, but did as these associates did and found the correct answer when I did not know it. Sounds like you should be giving props instead of complaining. She could have done the easy thing and just say yes. That is likely what will get in a best buy or someplace like that.

I have actually had the opposite experience. I am looking at boats and after looking at one at a local broker who also runs a chandelry, I asked the owner's wife a question about composting heads, and all she could tell me was that they did not carry them. Nothing about if the worked and she did not even offer to check there suppliers to see if she could order one. Later that same day I walked into West Marine and asked the same question to the first person who came up to me, and he was able to tell me that he knew of people who loved them, and then said "we don't carry them but we can get them through our special order department, got one last month."

So I guess YMMV is in order. I still would rather go through a local guy, or order on line, but I have found the staff at the local WM to be good, well I did see someone help change out a CO2 cartridge in an inflatable vest and did it wrong and watched it deploy right there! That was funny! Till he realized it was the last cartridge they had for that vest. :laugher

Seems many of the folks working there are really there for the discount. I have talked to a few working there that were working there for the flexible schedule while they finished up prepping there boat for cruising. I ma sure the discount came in handy!


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> What percentage upcharge would you say WM is "ripping off" their customer by? 10%, 20%, 30?
> They had $640 million in net revenue last year. If that only contained 5% up charging, that would be over $30 million. I suspect most think they upcharge by more, so make the excess revenue whatever you like.
> The point is, that is greater than the entirely of all executive compensation combined by many times over.
> The higher pricing is paying for stores and inventory, not compensation.


When I had a Port Supply card (more accurately, a girlfriend with a PS card) items were generally 40 - 50% off retail (damn...in retrospect, maybe I should have kept her around!). I assume WM was still making profit on the PS customer, and obviously 50% more on the retail customer. The Whale Point/Ace guy was making a profit at $30, and WM was selling the same product for $80+. 
I believe the profit margin in the grocery business is generally 3% (for example). Obviously the grocery industry has MUCH more volume than WM.
However, the also have large outlets to maintain, distribution costs and compensate their clerks much better than WM (in the bay area anyway).


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Boy you guys are gonna hate me. I just picked up...

Raymarine e7
Raymarine Auto Pilot
TackTick Wind
TackTick Depth
Lewmar Folding Wheel
Lifelsing W/Hard Case
Assorted other supplies......


All at WEST MARINE ............................

Ordered on Mon was at the store on Tuesday....


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

*Gotta love this place!*



BELLATRIX1965 said:


> Yup, I'm with Denise - GenuineDealz.com - Marine Electrical, Boat Wire & Cable, Custom Battery Cables for ANYTHING related to marine wire / cable! Brand-name cable, $1 a pop for crimping and heat-shrinking end fittings, FREE shipping, and they usually have the order delivered to your door in a day or two. Worst Marine - not so much!!


Placed an order with this place yesterday. Covered about 3 projects at once, including an item the local chandlery couldn't get and a custom battery cable I've been looking for for years! Shipped the same day (FREE SHIPPING, no minimum)! Thanks for the recommendation!


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

See...another boat owner gets taken to the bank and is proud of it. No worries about WM going out of business anytime soon!:laugher In fairness, I'm assuming you have Port Supply, right Mainsail? Good luck with the Raymarine gear, but thats another thread!


Maine Sail said:


> Boy you guys are gonna hate me. I just picked up...
> 
> Raymarine e7
> Raymarine Auto Pilot
> ...


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Why so vitriolic? Did Randy Repass steal your lunch money back in grade school? Now here is some fun facts from West’s most recent SEC 10K filing: Revenues: $643,443K, Net Income: $29,662K, Income as a percent of revenue: 4.6% That is the number you compare to the grocery store’s 3%.


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## jb1528 (Nov 10, 2010)

Well I didn't read all the pages of this string, so if I repeat somemone else's semtiment on this, well sorry.

I spent 25 years in hardware retail. When I started, I didn't know much. I swept floors and three years later, I'm assistant manager. I learned everyday.

I'm not sure that WM is structured in a way that new hires can learn by osmosis so to speak like I was able to. As the years went by, I always appreciated the patient customer that knew more that I did. Also as the years went by, and as my knowledge base grew, I had to prove myself to the regulars when the boss was gone. I did. I also know they appreciated me being truthful when I didn't know the answer.

What disappoints me more is that the selection is so poor in my local store compared to the big store in Seattle, and even that is slanted. I don't know what the total area is, but clothing takes up a ton of space. I also think that WM, at least in my area, isn't the place to go to for maintenance stuff. I'm fortunate to have two much better sources for that. Every merchant chooses what they focus on. Fisheries doesn't have that much clothing, but a ton of electrical for example.

As for the price match thing, I've taken advantage of that, but I wish they just were more reasonable in the first place. 

Small bungee cord at Fisheries Supply...$.08/ft. WM...$.65 what!!??

Anyway, we as consumers make choices based on price and customer service, whether it is groceries, clothes or docklines. Money talks, buying or selling.

I'll stop now. Thanks.


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

The Seattle store is 1/4 of the size it is "supposed" to be for the market. But they simply could not find a suitable building until Paul Allen finishes playing with his tonka trucks on the waterfront.


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## jillmstar (Jan 9, 2010)

So what is tinned anyways?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Each strand of wire is coated with tin for corrosion protection. Recommended for all wires on a boat.


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## sailor50 (Aug 26, 2009)

Holy Crow!

I am sick of the self serving cheapo that thinks they are deserving of a freebie! Who of you have put your life, business, name, and reputation on the line? Where did your "cajones" come from?


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## FlyingScot255 (May 30, 2007)

Today, I thought about traveling 52 miles to West Marine or ordering online and spending $52 for Interlux Interprotect 2000E, and $20 for 2 oz. of Marine Tex putty, but chose instead to order online through Wholesale Marine and pay $29 and $9 respectively. Free Shipping vs. whatever West Marine would have charged as well. On top of that, I had a question and a Wholesale Marine rep. was easily accessed via online text -- and was very helpful. I'll have the paint and putty in two days. Since I'm a poor sailor throwing money into my whole in the water, I'll take WM (Wholesale Marine) over WM (West Marine) every time.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

L124C said:


> See...another boat owner gets taken to the bank and is proud of it. No worries about WM going out of business anytime soon!:laugher In fairness, I'm assuming you have Port Supply, right Mainsail? Good luck with the Raymarine gear, but thats another thread!


The difference is I build relation ships with my vendors and get treated extremely well as a result. I need them, they need me, its called capitalism, not a huge secret.... My WM/Port Supply rep answers my emails or texts within minutes pretty much 24/7 and I often send him emails late at night when I am placing orders. I could not ask for better support. Some people get treated as they treat others...?

It was not always this way for me with WM. The previous rep was not my favorite guy and had rather poor communication skills. Coming from a high level sales & sales management career I had little tolerance for this. I purchased very little from them for years and my pricing matrix reflected that making it even harder to buy more from them.

When I got a new rep he asked why I bought so little and I was brutally honest. He accepted that and told me point blank _"I am going to get your business back"_, I respect that but I like proofnot just statements... Long & short John went out of his way to EARN my business back.

WM is not about WM it is about the people, always is, as any business is. If you have a poorly managed store let the folks in Watsonville know about it the staff won't last or will get better training. My store has some excellent staff from Warren the manager to Kirk the assistant manager to John my Port Supply rep.

I chuckle at the folks who walk into a marine store with a holier than thou high roller attitude. The clerks could care less what those types think of themselves but they bend over backwards when I walk in the door because I am polite and treat them as I would want to be treated. In return they treat me GREAT.

I was at the boat builders show today when my sales rep for WM came over and personally thanked me for last weeks order. Apparently it will help make his month a lot better than it had been. He told me to _call him_ when I need to place my next stock order for wire inventory. John knows he'll never get all my business but he is HONEST with me.

A few weeks ago I needed a Raritan PHC head for a customer. I called him for a better price, as he always says _call me first_. When I told him the other price I had been quoted he flat out told me to buy it there because it was below his cost and he could not even come close. I respect that honesty with NO BS... Apparently this other distributor took advantage of a truckload special and Watsonville did not. Stuff happens and I respect that but he did not try to BS me about why they could not meet the price just that they could not.

So no, I am not a "sucker" and wisely choose to spread my business so I have more avenues. As an example last summer Raymarine was out of nearly EVERYTHING, stock was horrible. I searched high and low for the part I needed and wasted about an hour and forty-five minutes on-line & calling vendors to check inventory, "_back ordered sorry_". I even called my inside guy at Raymarine repair to see if he could get me a rebuilt one, "_we don't even have the parts to repair them right now_". I called my WM manager and explained my situation. He did a search of the 300+ stores in his system and found a return that was going to be shipped back to the vendor. It did not show as "in stock" but Warren knew where to look and bent over backward to find me the part. I had it in 24 hours and when I got it the factory seal was still intact. Defender could not help, Hamilton could not help, Kellogg could not nor could any other Raymarine dealer The ONLY one who could was my local WM. Imagine where I would have been had I had a tissy fit because my local WM aisle clerk did not know the difference between NPT & NPS threads or that Marelon is Zytel, or that Trident 101 & Shields 101 are not the same quality or what tinned wire is. I don't go into WM looking for "advice" I go in to buy product I know I need. I don't go into Home Depot looking for advice either as I generally don't like to rely on near minimum wage clerks for advice on things that are important. I do my own research then go purchase the product.

Had I burned this bridge because I was not a huge fan of the previous rep I never would have been able to get that part for a customer who spends a lot of money with me.... I bend over backwards for my customer, WM bent over backwards for me and we're all happy with the result...

The fact that you are so angry about the tinned wire incident still stuns me. You could have politely taken the 30 seconds to explain what it is and why it is done to HELP this clerk. That sort of thing never would have even made me blink...

P.S. Buying more from WM tomorrow & Hamilton...


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

Maine Sail said:


> The difference is I build relation ships with my vendors and get treated extremely well as a result. I need them, they need me, its called capitalism, not a huge secret.... My WM/Port Supply rep answers my emails or texts within minutes pretty much 24/7 and I often send him emails late at night when I am placing orders. I could not ask for better support. Some people get treated as they treat others...?
> 
> It was not always this way for me with WM. The previous rep was not my favorite guy and had rather poor communication skills. Coming from a high level sales & sales management career I had little tolerance for this. I purchased very little from them for years and my pricing matrix reflected that making it even harder to buy more from them.
> 
> ...


Aaahhhh, the art of shopping! On the surface, I totally agree with you about not trusting your satisfaction with your purchase to a minimum wage clerk, or even with the store manager or anyone else for that matter. ut as you point out, not all store representatives are the same. I will listen to any advice from any associate, new or experienced. It's up to me to decide if that advice is good or bad.

I'm no kind of sales expert but I do know that every transaction of this sort has a seller and a buyer. Having a knowledgeable, friendly, helpfull seller (the clerk) benefits the buyer (you). The flip side to that is having friendly, patient buyer who knows what he/she is looking for helps the seller do his job, which also benefits the buyer. If you are more knowledgeable than the clerk, passing along that knowledge will help that clerk to better serve you in the future. If one side of the equation is not doing their part, it is difficult to conclude the transaction.

If the clerk is not doing their job, chances are they won't be around for an extended period of time. If you as the buyer are not doing your part, well, the clerks are not going to be motivated to do their part.

You catch more flies with honey so don't let your attitude be dosed with vinegar.


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## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

Wow, this whole thread has made me miss working at WM. As I have said previously I work there part time (for the discount) and have been off sick for the past 4 months (another story). I plan to go back in April and work a few days a week.

The posters on the thread have broken down pretty much as we experience our actual store customers. 

1. The regular shoppers. In, find what they need, pleasant to staff, check out, gone. Professionals, Port Supply, long term boaters. Know about price matching etc. Don't always love WM, but that's not a requirement to shop there. Get bugged by being told about the "Hero" product etc. but know we have to ask. We love these people. 

2. The Newbies. Wander around looking somewhat lost. If lucky enough to find an experienced associate (they will eventually) they will get good advice and will become long time WM customers. Really appreciate that they are in a clean, organized store with things that they can touch and see. Realize that they can bring it back if its the wrong item realize that there is a price premium for this. Will eventually gain more experience and become regular shoppers. 

3. The "Expert". Surprisingly rare. Comes in at speed, ignores all offers with a grunt. Goes straight to the wrong aisle. Shouts at me from the end of the aisle "wheres the bloody....". Starts the conversation "I can't believe that you don't have .... in stock, at the price you charge." Continues, Expert:"I asked one of your associates last week about the voltage drop along 20ft of #2 wire and he had no clue what I was talking about", Me:"Which associate" Expert: "the 17yo, new kid (could also be the 40yo, cruising lady)." Me: "We will work on that SIR" 

I generally get alerted to the "Experts" if I'm on the floor. They usually make my day. I am overly courteous, use lots of SIRS, stay with them until they find everything, escort them to the register, cash them out myself, and then walk them to the door. I generally don't argue with their diatribe about WM and its policies. I occasionally point out that there are workarounds (e.g. price matching etc.). I don't argue that we occasionally have weak associates and even stores (its true). Sometimes the "Expert" will calm down and I may even get the fully reason why they were bent out of shape in the first place, it is frequently a valid reason, but not caused by my colleagues or my store. (one "Expert" had two bad knees and after knee replacement surgery became an absolute gentleman).

Unlike Mitt Romney I don't believe that Corporations are people. Store associates are people, with all their flaws. If you have problems with Corporate WM, e-mail them. If you have problems with a store tell a manager. If after all this you still plan to be an "Expert", we have a saying in Ireland;

"Don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out"

Happy St. Patrick's day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

Everyone makes me smile. Some when they arrive, some when they leave! 

Gary H Lucas


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