# Good Blue Water / Shallow Water Compromise



## pickpaul (Jun 25, 2013)

Hi Everyone,

First post but have been reading for a while 

I want to buy an older, affordable sailboat in the 30-40 ft range.

I'm a Brit living in Baltimore. I want a boat that I can eventually sail home across the atlantic in. I've done a fair amount of reading and have an idea of the boat models well known for this but here's the problem, I live on the Chesapeake Bay and will be doing most of my sailing there and up and down the East Coast. 

So anyone know of an Atlantic crossing sailboat with a shallow draft? Isn't that kind of contradictory? I'm assuming a swing keel wouldn't cut it. I'm wide open to suggestions 

Cheers, Paul.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Something to think about. The article at the end is very good if you have access to back issues of Good Old Boat, or are willing to purchase them.

*Ontario 32 is an affordable world cruiser*
Veleda, our 1978 Ontario 32, is a sturdy, well-built, modified C&C-designed vessel with the cabin space of a 36-foot boat (thanks to an 11.5 foot beam). Every boat is a compromise of what one can afford, can handle, and needs for the type of sailing planned. Yes, it is small for what we are doing. We are the smallest or one of the smallest boats in any rally or marina with bluewater cruisers. However, few boats have done the extensive cruising we have done (26,800 nautical miles through 27 countries since July of 1998).

It would be nice to have a 40-footer with space for bicycles, scuba gear, large fuel and water tanks, washing machine and shower, berths for six people (we have berths for only five), and a longer waterline to give increased speed and comfort. However such would have cost more than double what we paid for Veleda. We have all the confidence in the world in her seaworthiness and would take her anywhere. With our 4-½ foot draft, we can negotiate shallow areas, as in the Bahamas, and go through many canal systems here in Europe which boats with 5-foot or more drafts can not do. Veleda is small enough that either of us can singlehand her, and her shorter length means less cost at marinas that charge by length. We can easily drop her mast (with the assistance of only a mast crane) and carry it onboard for canal trips as we did going through Chicago into the Illinois River and down the Mississippi and the Tennessee-Tombigbee Waterway and again up the Seine River to Paris, across the Marne, and down to the south of France into the Med.

Yes, if I had another $100,000 to spend, I might get a larger boat, but we - not the bank - own Veleda, and we are in the fortunate position that, since selling our home in Toronto, we do not owe anything to anybody. We have a nest egg should we return and my pension as a retired teacher is enough for us to continue sailing indefinitely.

I think the most basic advice for bluewater sailing, would be to go for a used boat with the longest waterline you can afford and handle, as most boats 36 feet and longer can handle bluewater cruising. Get the advice of a good marine surveyor for any intended purchase. Part of the fun is the dreaming and planning. However, we are happy with Veleda, our 1978 Ontario 32, as we can afford her and sail her anyplace in the world for the rest of our lives, even though she may be a bit on the small side.
Aubrey Millard
Aubrey wrote an excellent article about preparing Veleda for ocean voyaging in the January 2001 issue of Good Old Boat.


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## billsull (Jul 8, 2007)

Welcome aboard Paul!

Have you considered a Southerly? They're harder to find on this side of the pond, but with their British heritage, you'll feel right at home after your crossing:

Here's one in Florida:

1985 Southerly 100 Pilot House Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

For older, affordable and shoal draft, take a look at the Pearson 35 or 365. There are many for sale in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic region of the U.S. and they are bargains.

The problem with Sailnet is many members either believe their own boat are bluewater capable (not a dig at PBzeer whose opinion I respect) or will make suggestions that are not supported by any rational, objective, third-party, expert opinion (which experts could include delivery captains, marine surveyors, marine mechanics, yacht designers, yacht builders, and maybe even some yacht brokers). Therefore, I suggest you look on Mahina Expeditions for a list of his blue water capable boats: Mahina Expedition - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I would not reject a centreboard boat. Have a look at the Bristol 35.5 and 38.8 and Hood (Wauquiez) 38. All have done a lot of offshore cruisers and the 35.5 draft is something like 3' 9" with board up. Very different boats than Southerlys and cheaper I should think. Southerly would be easier to sell in Europe though.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

pickpaul said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> First post but have been reading for a while
> 
> ...


Welcome Paul,

I would suggest you continue to read and read and then read some more. It will soon realize that it is not the blue water boat that is important in crossing the pond. It is the sailor who knows how to sail blue water.

Buy your boat for the intended purpose NOW, not what you may do in the next 10 years. There are so many blue water boats on the Chesapeake bay that have never seen blue water. All the owners in the past had the vision to sail the ocean. Somehow, things have changed, didn't like the boring voyage in the ocean, other interests, or just don't enjoy sailing as much as they thought.

You will get lot of advises in here. All has its merit and is correct. How you are using it is important.

Good luck.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

I really like this Cal 36 in Annapolis for your purposes, a little deeper draft, but o.k: Cal 36 Sailboat, New Diesel


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

Paul,

In general full keel designs have shallower draft than fin keel designs so that might be a criteria to help you narrow down your search.

Cape Dory produced a large number of full keel boats over many years before going out of business in the late 80's early 90's. They made a 30, 31 32, 33, 36 40 and 45 (not in your criteria range). They were well made and have an active owners association. The Cape Dory 36 is reincarnate in the Robinhood 36 made by a company owned by the founder of Cape Dory. 

Carl Alberg was the designer of most of the Cape Dory full keel designs. He also designed some of the early Pearsons and (I believe) some of the Sea Sprites. 

I own a Cape Dory but it is the 30' motor sailor which is not a blue water boat and not designed by Carl Alberg. She is well made however and still going stron after 27 years. (Didn't want James to jump on me for being biased)


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Hi Paul. What's your general budget for this boat? That will dictate a lot of the choices.



pickpaul said:


> So anyone know of an Atlantic crossing sailboat with a shallow draft? Isn't that kind of contradictory? I'm assuming a swing keel wouldn't cut it.


Shallow draft and bluewater ability aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. For example, here's a variety of boats for different budgets that are certainly capable of an Atlantic crossing in the proper hands:

Tartan 37 CB - 4'2" draft (board up)
Island Packet 35 (IP31 if you're on a tighter budget) - 4'6" draft
Vancouver 27 - 4'3" draft
Bristol 41.1 - 4'6" draft (board up)


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

The problem of with the so-called blue water boats is they don't do well in light wind. Motoring is normal in Chesapeake bay from late June to late Aug.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Oh.. I don't even know but a Bristol Channel Cutter comes to mind for me..... 
enjoy.. if only to see.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

I have no experience with any, but Seaward has a line of yachts with retractable keels. 26-46 feet

Hake Yachts


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

Channel Cutters are fairly deep depth boats. I think the compromise he is looking for would be a shoal draft keel boat with a swing keel to help with the upwind sections. 

As per above.. Alberg did design one of the Sea Sprites, the 23. I know, I own one.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

4'10" not that bad, My boat is 4'11"


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## pickpaul (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks for the great feedback everyone. How about an Alberg 30? Def transatlantic capable when I am , only a 4.25 draft, and they are very popular in the Chesapeake. There are nice examples locally for under $10k. I'm trying to avoid bigger is better and I think it would suit my needs. It may also give you a clue about my budget :-D Also, I hope to buy a slip in Baltimore at some point and a 30ft slip is significantly cheaper than a 40 ft one.


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

I think the Alber 30 is an earlier iteration of the Cape Dory 30. Was it built by Pearson? The biggest difference might be with interior volume and beam width. Depending on the year they may have had Atomic 4 gas engines vs a deisel.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

We have a centerboard boat that draws 6 feet when it's up and over ten when down. Six feet is an acceptable cruising depth, though thanks to Regan the ICW has parts that are no longer navigable for a boat that deep. But when fighting for every inch on a windward beat, that 10+ feet of draft is amazing.
Even at anchor we run the board down about 2/3 of the way and it's like sticking a spike into the bottom (it never actually touches the bottom) and we ride so much more comfortably than the shallower draft vessels around us.
I'm not sure if a swing keel is another name for a centerboard, so if not, I can't help you with that.
Another point with a centerboard; it is NOT an all or nothing proposition, experiment with the depth to find the best amount to put down for conditions.
Good luck.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Alberg 30s, 37s, and Whitby 42s and a few others were built by Whitby Boat Works right across the harbour from my yacht club on Lake Ontario. Solidly built in general but not as good as Cape Dory - but cheaper. I would look for a later A30 but not one of the very last ones. I heard they were cutting corners trying to stay alive. Mainly Atomic 4 engines, but many would have replacements by now.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

pickpaul said:


> Thanks for the great feedback everyone. How about an Alberg 30? Def transatlantic capable when I am , only a 4.25 draft, and they are very popular in the Chesapeake. There are nice examples locally for under $10k. I'm trying to avoid bigger is better and I think it would suit my needs. It may also give you a clue about my budget :-D Also, I hope to buy a slip in Baltimore at some point and a 30ft slip is significantly cheaper than a 40 ft one.


If you're thinking along those lines, I'd suggest also looking at some of the boats built by Allied... The Seawind was the first-ever fiberglass boat to complete a circumnavigation, and Robin Lee Graham finished up his voyage on a Luders 33...

Here's one listed over in Rock Hall:

1969 Allied Luders Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Allieds were built like the proverbial brick sh_t house, and the designs of Thomas Gilmer make wonderful sea boats... Probably considerably more roomy than the typically narrow Alberg designs, as well...

They're definitely a Plain Jane sort of boat, nothing fancy, but robust, and pleasing to the eye in the traditional sense... Probably about as much bang for the buck as anything comparable out there...

The Allied Owners Group is pretty active, and these folks are very devoted to the brand...

Allied Boat Company


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## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

The Pearson 35 has a board up draft of 4' 9". 7' 9" down. Some would say it isn't a good light wind boat ( Chesapeake winds ) but I think it performs fairly well. I've heard of a few crossing the Atlantic and at least one crossing the Pacific. I'm sure there are more. The blue water purists will say that the cockpit is too large for heavy seas. But lots of room for crew and passengers!


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

David, is a Pearson 35 very similar to a 36? There was a 36 in Fiji a couple of years ago. Unfortunately the single hander on it lost the boat the following year. He was fine. Picked up by a fishing boat if I remember correctly.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I have a similar objective in my boat search and concluded that for me it will be a CB boat between 30 and 35 feet LOD. Bristol, Pearson, Tartan, C&C, or Rhodes. It is a matter of picking your least objectionable compromise among the boats available in your area. Find a boat that you really love, because you will end up spending a lot of money on her, and without love that causes a lot of pain...


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## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

The 36 is similar above the waterline. But below the 35 is a long skeg keel with centerboard, and the 36 is a fin keel with the rudder far aft at the stern.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I have a cheap old center board sloop ( Soverel 28). 3 foot board up and 8 foot with it down. Mine is 1965 model. I love it. I just ran 700 miles off shore with the board up the whole way. The more time I spend off shore in this thing the less and less board I put down. Even pointing I only put it down 1/2 way at most. I like my Soverel any way's. For what it's worth, I see 'em for sale here and there from time to time.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Capt.aaron said:


> I have a cheap old center board sloop ( Soverel 28). 3 foot board up and 8 foot with it down. Mine is 1965 model. I love it. I just ran 700 miles off shore with the board up the whole way. The more time I spend off shore in this thing the less and less board I put down. Even pointing I only put it down 1/2 way at most. I like my Soverel any way's. For what it's worth, I see 'em for sale here and there from time to time.


There is one for sale here: 1962 Soverel 28 sailboat for sale in Vermont


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

krisscross said:


> There is one for sale here: 1962 Soverel 28 sailboat for sale in Vermont


This is a great boat at a good price. It is still rigged as a Yawl which is rare. Most, like mine have had the Mizzen removed. I have also moved my rudder back to an out board set up. I miss my mizzen how ever. Years ago, with just the Mizzen and a self tending club footed jib, I could short tack up 20 knots of wind into little harbours and creeks by just pushing and pulling on the tiller....like driving a sports car....and they really are Blue water boats. I just ran, like I said 700 miles in some pretty big following seas at some points and she was right at home out there.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Capt.aaron said:


> Years ago, with just the Mizzen and a self tending club footed jib, I could short tack up 20 knots of wind into little harbours and creeks by just pushing and pulling on the tiller....like driving a sports car....


Very interesting... I hear a lot of good things about that type of sail configuration.
Here is a very nice C&C Corvette that was converted to a yawl:
1969 C&C Corvette sailboat for sale in New York
There are really solid boats.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

krisscross said:


> Very interesting... I hear a lot of good things about that type of sail configuration.
> Here is a very nice C&C Corvette that was converted to a yawl:
> 1969 C&C Corvette sailboat for sale in New York
> There are really solid boats.


That's a great boat at a decent price. I also browse sailboatlistings.com often. There is a lot of solid, affordable, blue water boats on that site. My freind and I bought a 68, Cal, 38 with a newish Yanmar and a lot of bells for 18 G's last year. As for the yawl set up. It's old school for sure, but as far a self tending short tacking in a good amount of wind, you can't beat that configuration. I am currently working on re steping my mizzen. Not an easy task as my tiller now crosses over where the mizzen step is. I'm working on a custom A frame base for the mast. But back to the OQ of the OP. These last 2 boats introduced by Krisscross are definate Maybe's for you IMOP.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Capt.aaron said:


> As for the yawl set up. It's old school for sure, but as far a self tending short tacking in a good amount of wind, you can't beat that configuration. I am currently working on re steping my mizzen. Not an easy task as my tiller now crosses over where the mizzen step is. I'm working on a custom A frame base for the mast.


A lot of people don't like having a lot of gear in the cockpit, like a main traveler, or a mizzen, or even a tiller(!) because it gets in their way during cocktail time, but having all that gear there really makes perfect sea sense.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Capt.aaron said:


> It's old school for sure, but as far a self tending short tacking in a good amount of wind, you can't beat that configuration. I am currently working on re steping my mizzen. Not an easy task as my tiller now crosses over where the mizzen step is. I'm working on a custom A frame base for the mast.


If you re-step your mizzen, what becomes of your windvane? Didn't you just install a Cape Horn prior to your last trip south?


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

krisscross said:


> A lot of people don't like having a lot of gear in the cockpit, like a main traveler, or a mizzen, or even a tiller(!) because it gets in their way during cocktail time, but having all that gear there really makes perfect sea sense.


Yeah, that was why we took the mizzen out, and that was like, 25 years ago. I then moved to an outboard rudder, so now my tiller ends where it used to begin, opening up the cockpit. Instead of a traveler I have a bridle set up. I hate a clutterd cockpit. I do miss the way she used to short tack with the mizzen. I had posted some pics on another thread titled " Key west to Guanaja, we made it" or something like that. I don't know how to drag those thumbnails to this thread, But there is a good pic. of My father in law at the tiller, standing where the mizzen was. There is also a pic of my Soverel on my page, again I don't know how to move immages a round this sailnet thing, it's frustrating for those of us who don't even know what URL is never mind what do with it. I have a ton of good pics of the boat and it's restoration process on my face book, but getting them here to sailnet has been a losing battle for me.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

May also wish to look at older Hinckley B40s or the smaller Shannons. They are definitely "centerboard blue water boats". Given they are narrow with external teak to maintain their prices have come down quite a bit. However, owners tend to take very good care of these jewels and they were built right from the start so even an old one is likely to be Bristol fashion.


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