# My Horror Story



## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

I am so anxious. I feel as though a panic attack could happen at any moment.. I have never had a panic attack. I was less anxious after fighting off a home intruder who came into my house with a pistol and tried to execute me in the back room by the closet when he told me to get on my knees... Its that bad.

It started when I attempted to move my 1979 27' AMF PY26 from the Ortega Yacht Club Marina In Jacksonville to New Smyrna Beach FL.

I left on a nice breezy day early in the morning. I cut out under the Ortega draw bridge and headed toward the I-95 interstate bride overpass.
First off I ran aground for going on the outside of the channel marker. I have to spend an hour trying to get off before I hail a boat to pull me off. My boat is a centerboard and as I try to lift the board in the cabin with all my might the shackle breaks on the post leaving the only way to pull up the centerboard being direct up vertical. Wasn't going to happen. Great start.
I sail about a few hundred yards from under the I-95 bridge and cannot make any more forward progress. I have never tired to sail this route and so did not realize the strength of the incoming tide through the bridge. I could make no headway. I decided to try to motor through. Well folks let me tell you that a 1979 YSM8 is worthless. Especially when it RUNS AWAY AT CATASTROPHIC MOMENTS.
So there I am direct under the bridge at 3000 RPM NOT MOVING. sitting still. I see other boats motoring through all around me, sailing included. I call a sail boat on channel 9 and find out the current is 1.5 knots at least and I will not make it through the bridge until the tide falls.
Great. So I sail a few more circles then decide to move over towards shore and drop anchor a few hours. 
Eventually the tide changes and I raise anchor and try again. I aim for the middle passage under the bridge and start a tack so that I enter the bridge on the port and come out on the starboard. Well I start sailing under with motor and I am being pushed by a lee current towards the bridge wall. Im making it making it and I am coming out of the other side when a jib line catches on the very most aft light on the bridge walls side. Immediately I undo that jib lines bitter end knot so that the line rips out but then the spreaders catch and I round up into the bridge and begin banging on pilings.
Thank god a boat had came though right before me and I hailed them down. The immediately came to my aid and helped me hold the boat so I could climb on the bridge and untangle the rigging before backing out. 
So now I am under the I-95 bridge in that little lagoon before the old railroad bridge and main street bridge. 
I am already stressed to hell and beat to hell. I do not really remember why, perhaps it was still so early in the day I do not know, but I decided to proceed down river with the tide. 
The route through the railroad bridge takes you right by the shore through the opening. You are supposed to sort of loop around the side of the lagoon and ride through the opening. Well apparently I did not angle my approach right. Also, again, I got to close to the bridge and the water current begin sucking me towards the bridge. I was guaranteed to slam on the bridge on my present course, though it would take a few minutes. My only scary ass option was to gybe directly into the bridge and hope the engine and wind would push me out of the currents. Let me freaking tell you people I came within 10 feet of the bridge after the gybe. So there I am water sucking me back and my 8 HP engine freaking gunning harder than I ever pushed it.. the boat was in immediate danger of being lost. I am motoring so hard core I make it about 75 feet off the bridge when without warning the engine runs away.
OMG.
Tiller left unattended, I jump into the cabin and cover the compression hole with my palm. Takes at least 15 seconds for the engine to die. I jump back on deck and have about 20 ft again.
God saved me.
He sent me a sustained gust of wind that allowed me to pull away from the current. He saved my boat. It was lost.
Man i feel so anxious writing this, my eye just misted.
So I make it away and attempt to drop anchor. the water is too deep. The anchor begins to drag back toward the bridge. I cannot pull the anchor up. My muscles give out. It takes every thing I have, I almost throw up from exertion. 
I somehow get the anchor up, those it gets incredible tangled and is now useless if I need it again. I sail directly for the closest dock. I miss the first dock but make the second, slight collision.
I tie up for the night and collapse on the boat.
About an hour goes by a knock on the boat. Some guy tells me this is a private dock and I must move. I explain the situation and tell him I plan on leaving at first light, he doesn't care. Move or the cops are called and they will tow the boat, i cannot afford that.
I have no energy to sail. I tied three lines together and try to 'walk' the boat to the other dock climbing over the rocky shoreline. Of course the boat gets stuck. Bystanders help. Another hour passes. I have to stay in the water pushing the boat off rocks toward the other dock while another guy tows the line.
Eventually we make it and I tie up for the night and go to sleep.

I cannot stay here. Have to keep moving. So new day and I again head out this time making sure I follow the correct path to the bridge opening. I make it 2 times and each time I am lined up to go through, a train comes and they lower the bridge. The third time, 2 hours later, I start to go through and even on a low tide it seems like I am being pushed back. I motor out of the two bridges so that now I am by the Landing facing the main street bridge. The bridge operators tell me I am moving too slow for them to shut the bridge traffic, my mast height is 36, bridge clearance is 39', Ive got to run it or stay inside. 
I tack towards the bridge and set a tack so that I cross under the bridge direct under center. It works, the top of my antenna bent under the bridge. Two feet or less to spare, less as I fall off the center.

I do make it and continue sailing two miles to a very nice anchorage behind a small island.
I have left the boat there 4 days. It is behind the little island right by the Mathews bridge. I am expected to sail this thing out of the river to st Augustine then to new Smyrna beach. I am freaking out because the engine is unreliable and too weak for snuff. The currents in the river constantly work against me as well as the wind. I also have no idea where to anchor once I leave this spot and head towards the beach. Im like 4-5 miles out and no idea where to stop or anchor or what. I have to plan my coming in to st aug on an incoming tide bc my engine will not motor through an outgoing tide. 
Im really just feeling scared and anxious and so stressed out. This is not usually my character. I grew up in a very violent area and have been in dangerous situation numerous times without such feelings of panic as I feel now. I do not know what to do. I live on the boat and I have to make New Smyrna because thats where my family lives and my job is. I would love to just go down the ICW but with my engine motor sailing is not an option so how would I make it down? Everyone also tells me i would run aground at least once- that makes me feel no better.
Then the though of sailing offshore is not so bad until the afternoon thunderstorms and my lack of any jib besides a 98% hank on and one reefed main, doesn't have a second reefing point. Jib has no reefing point. Winds out of South, current out of south, so I would have to beat upwind the whole time. I feel safer in open water. If a storm was approaching I think I would bare poles it and float with the current bc motor sailing is not an option.

Basically guys I am feeling so stressed out and feel like I have no options because I have a time set to get to where I need to be.. about 10 days. I planned on going out to the boat in a few hours and attempting to sail down river to someplace near the beaches. Does anyone have recommendations?

This experience has been enough to make me want to not sail. I think the engine is the main culprit. I have put 2 grand into the engine and it stills runs away. nothing shore of a complete rebuild will fix the problem, though it will not add HP. It freaking almost kills me on a regular basis and as a single handler not having a reliable engine is terrible. Even if it worked its so weak its almost worthless besides getting in and out of a slip. Lawn mowers have more powerful engines then my 8000 pound boat does. 

The boat is rigged strong and true, but the captain is not feeling up to snuff and really needs some support to make it through this. Right now this sucks. I feel like a coward and want to hide somewhere. The boat wont moves its self, and do not even think about telling me to hire a skipper on my budget.

Ive got 5 miles between me and the beaches and 80 miles to New Smryna. I have brand new north sail made sails but as I said, only one reef on the main and one 98% jib. 

A part of me feels like this is not going to me for me, this stressful existence. I own the boat and love living on it but sailing the damn thing seems to always have a hitch. I think when I make New Smyrna I will just keep the boat moored and live on it until I sell it. I mean if I do go that route at least I did it. bought a boat, rebuilt a boat, learned to sail a boat, and sailed that trip-- that might be enough for me if this stressful existence continues. 

Also, I feel like my knowledge of sailing is adequate. These experiences are causing me to have self-doubts EVEN THOUGH when emergencies have happened I have responded in the correct, and sometimes only fashion, that would save me and my boat. This is especially true when I made the decision to gybe in to the bridge and risk hitting it, or holding my course and "hoping for the best,' which would have resulted in catastrophe as I slid farther and farther. I do act, inaction is not my problem. This means I know what the right decisions to make are, but the boat will not cooperate. 

Help me regain my confidence sailnet.


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

There are a lot of things that could be said, but the important part is you're alive and well (albeit stressed) and you've still got your boat.
And the sun will still come up tomorrow.

One thing that puzzles me is the lack of performance under power, disregarding the running away. How long has it been since your bottom was cleaned, particularly the prop? It doesn't take long to foul the bottom in those waters, and it doesn't take much fouling to ruin the boat's performance. Just a little bit of growth on the prop can affect the performance under power.

Good luck to you.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

As Nietzsche said, "That which does not kill us makes us stronger." It also makes for great stories down the road.


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## Roger Long (May 28, 2012)

You are doing just fine for your level of experience. Knowledge comes from experience. Mistakes are the raw material for experience.

The knowledge you have now is that you have zero business attempting an 80 mile outside solo passage and then trying to navigate an inlet that may be breaking just outside the channel, or even in it, by the time you get there.

Your engine has 85% of the power, based on displacement to horsepower ratio, of what I use in cruise. You should be getting better performance. Something is wrong, possibly the wrong prop. Have you checked to be sure the prop isn't fouled or covered with barnacles?

A diesel that is running away is very dangerous. You must find the cause before proceeding. Yanmars are very good engines. Unless it is worn out, it should be possible to make that engine right.

Find a place to keep the boat for a while there in JAX and get the engine and centerboard straightened out. Then go down the ditch until you have more experience. If you can't afford to do that, you probably can't afford all the other stuff that lies ahead of you as a boat owner. Sell it or, if necessary, give it away, and chalk it up to experience.

Get TowboatUS towing insurance. It will be the best $125 you ever spend. I even carry it with nearly half a century of sailing and cruising experience and four ICW transits. It's saved me thousands of dollars.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

This may be a really stupid question, but are your bottom and running gear clean? If your prop is badly fouled, it wouldn't matter if you had 80 hp and a foul bottom would cause the boat to sail very poorly as well.
If your bottom is fouled, you will have to dive down and scrub it clean with hard bristled brushes and scrapers, a tedious job.
As I said previously, if you wait for westerly or the more common easterly winds you would have an easier time sailing south.
After cleaning the bottom, if needed, you might make a plea on the site for some kind soul with more experience to help you sail your boat to NSB for free, just supplying food, grog and transportation for them.
Another option would be to put an outboard bracket on the stern and use an outboard motor to motor the boat, though that isn't a cheap option.
Good luck.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Not being able to buck a 1.5 kt current is a bit suspicious. Even with a fouled bottom and prop I would expect an 8 hp engine to be able to do 3 or 4 kts.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

wow.. what a horror story! but you did survive! Sailing doesn't seem to be the problem. Negotiating channels, bridges, current, tides and flow do seem to be a problem. First suggestion, don't try to do what others are doing. Depth finder is a must, charts also, gps too, if affordable. Local knowledge can be a big help because charts are not always up to date. Bridges create their own wind anomalies, even small bridges. slack tide is always a good time to do things. Don't know about your area, but winds die down around sunset here, also a good time to negotiate a bridge. 

Knowing about range makers, buoys, and channels are important on rivers too. 
Timing that is right for you and your boat is more important then just going from point a to b. also. Like here where I live. To get to the C &D canal area on the upper part of Delaware Bay, I have leave my YC 2 hrs before high tide, ride the tide all the way down river and with luck be at the C&D at dead low tide and ride the upcoming tide into the canal. (I've yet to make it on time LOL and wind up dilly dallying) One bridge is 47ft I always call and tell them I'm at 50ft and not taking any chances and will wait if necessary, they always lift the bridge. 

Your boats sluggishness seems to say it's bottom is badly fouled. When motoring into strong current if you motor diagonal to the flow, the current will actually help your boat when going forward. Using current instead of fighting it is always best


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

Something is wrong. An engine should not be able to run away while in gear. The prop must be completely fouled or slipping on the shaft.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Harborless said:


> My boat is a centerboard and as I try to lift the board in the cabin with all my might the shackle breaks on the post leaving the only way to pull up the centerboard being direct up vertical. Wasn't going to happen. Great start.
> 
> ...
> 
> So there I am direct under the bridge at 3000 RPM NOT MOVING. sitting still. I see other boats motoring through all around me, sailing included. I call a sail boat on channel 9 and find out the current is 1.5 knots at least and I will not make it through the bridge until the tide falls.


First off, fix your centerboard shackle. This could possibly easily be fixed by you, with a wrench, a mask, fins and a snorkle.

Second, are you saying that your engine will not power you against a 1.5kt current?  Your bottom must look like a welcome mat. While you're in the water, after you fix the centerboard, scrub the bottom and the prop with a putty knife, and then a stiff nylon brush. You should be able to make headway of _at least_ 4 kts with the motor.

The vessel should be in the best operating condition that you can get it in before making any passage. The sails, the engine, the centerboard, the steering, and the rigging should all work reliably. Otherwise, you are risking your life, and the vessel.


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## geehaw (Jun 9, 2010)

Well the way I see it you made 2 mistakes. 1) lack of planning and 2) lack of knowledge of your boats performance in certain conditions. Now the second one you gained a whole lot of knowledge in. So now do a little more planning. Wait for favorable tides and winds. You are traveling 80 miles so you need at least 20 hours of sailing, so you need to plan on at least 1 anchorage maybe 2 if your beating the whole way. And maybe a couple back-ups in case the weather was not what forecast. A good plan will help alleviate a lot of the anxiety. Maybe have a mechanic look at the motor. I am new to sailing myself and I have scared myself a few times. But I get back on the horse and think about what went wrong, what I did wrong and keep on trucking. It only gets better as you learn your abilities and the boats. Greg.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Hey, you are fine, you are learning the hard way.

As I have stated several times, the success of a voyage is 80% skipper and 20% vessel. The ability of the skipper is 80% common sense, problem solving and judgment, and 20% experience.

As a result, IMHO, roughly 2/3rds of your voyaging success is the gray matter you bring when you step on the boat, life experience and all. You are now improving that part and building up the 20% experience part. It is important to use some of that gray matter in preparation for the trip, making sure you understand the charts, currents and passage you plan to take rather than winging it in the circumstances. It is a good sign that you did not panic and instead solved the problems that arose.

To read the posts on Sailnet, one would think it is all about buying the right boat and the right gear and taking the right series of ASA courses. Wrong. It is the stuff between your ears. Good job for surviving to keep at it!

A great sailor could sail a Catalina 22 across the Atlantic. A poor sailor could sink a Tayana 37 (or an Island Packet....he, he, he) and need to activate his EPIRB 10 miles offshore.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Panic often comes from being out of control and for some folks, you can resolve that by learning to control the situation.

And we've all probably survived a foolish situation so please don't take this the wrong way, I offer it from the "there but for the grace of god go I" perspective, wondering how we all survived at times.

An engine that runs away, or does run, or simply is ill-tempered, means that you aren't in control of the engine. Either learn to maintain it, or pay someone to maintain it, or get a boat without an engine. This is something you can control.

Running aground outside the channel means you don't know how to navigate. Either you didn't read the chart or you didn't factor in tide rise or something. There are free classes (Power Squadron, USCG Aux) to teach that, and books, and more resources. Again, either you sit down to learn this stuff, or it will be out of control and that leads to panic.

You got stuck and had to wait an hour to find help? Why? With a VHF or a cell phone and a tow policy or a call to the USCG, you could have gotten help. These are all things that you are apparently ignoring and allowing to control you, that you could be controlling.

Boating is something like baking a cake: ANyone can throw stuff in a pan, but the result isn't going to be very good unless you take some time to plan and learn what you're doing. If you just want to mess around with boats, that's absolutely fine and perfectly good fun. Best done in something you can PADDLE on protected waters. Canoeing, kayaking, all fun things that make navigation and engines and tows less of a possible problem.

Although I will confess to running a canoe aground in the middle of a wide river once, in dry season. The guys behind me practically capsized with laughter when they saw me hop out of the back of a canoe, in the middle of a river, and _walk on the water _for a while before jumping back in and paddling again. (Memo, never walk on water in public, it tends to cause disturbances.<G>)


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Oh and BTW, I ran aground 3 times last year, screwed-up a number of times, was scared, tried not to panic at times, solved problems as best I could, learned a lot, and managed to survive for another season. And I have been doing this off and on now for 43 years.

That is why sailing is fun - the challenge.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Harborless said:


> Help me regain my confidence sailnet.


Dude, this is the stuff of life. Sh...t happens all the time. From your story it is clear you are not a bonehead and have serious balls. You have not made any truly stupid moves. You are alive and the boat is afloat. The rest is all negotiable.

People here gave you lots of good ideas to try and to check out. Get lots of rest, eat something good, have a drink or two, and then get busy. Celebrate every day and every small victory, heck...celebrate even a defeat when you gave it your best.

Salutations to you, my friend... may the gods be kind to you...


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

You dont call the coast guard because you run around in mud. You push the boat off, wait for high tide, or do as i did and hail a passing boat. It was not an emergency just an inconvience. The railroad and bridge were dangerous situations and i did report myself in distress but was able to get out of it.


So i have developed a plan of action. Tmmrw morning will tow the boat or sail if wind to closest marina. Have a diesel mechanic to come out and FIX THE PROBLEM once and for all. While shes holed up ill get a bottom scraping. Once the engine is fixed this whole debacle becomes enjoyable again and a whole lot easier.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

And make sure you are not dragging behind your boat a big chest full of gold... that would explain the incredible drag your boat seems to have...


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

A really good anchor, ready to go, maybe even in dicey situations rigged so you can release it from the cockpit, can be a nice little bit of insurance.


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

After getting the boat checked out as above, I would try to recruit someone who is more experienced than you to help you make the trip. You may find someone who only asks for payment in liquid currency (i.e. beer).


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Yeah , the stress level is so high when your motor is sketchy.

Your plan sounds sensible. Everyone has up and downs. You will turn the corner and have some good times after fixing your motor.


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## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

Sounds like a normal weekend to me.

I once handed my wife a boat hook and said "prepare to fend off the bridge abutment" with a completely straight face:

http://sailingfortuitous.com/beach_haven_cruise_2012


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

rgscpat said:


> A really good anchor, ready to go, maybe even in dicey situations rigged so you can release it from the cockpit, can be a nice little bit of insurance.


Done.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Harborless said:


> You dont call the coast guard because you run around in mud. You push the boat off, wait for high tide, or do as i did and hail a passing boat. It was not an emergency just an inconvience. The railroad and bridge were dangerous situations and i did report myself in distress but was able to get out of it.
> 
> So i have developed a plan of action. Tmmrw morning will tow the boat or sail if wind to closest marina. Have a diesel mechanic to come out and FIX THE PROBLEM once and for all. While shes holed up ill get a bottom scraping. Once the engine is fixed this whole debacle becomes enjoyable again and a whole lot easier.


Really? You think that the desiel and the bottom is the only issue.

I agree that needs to be addressed , but as others have posted a little more planning and knowledge of what you were doing would be a prudent risk adversive way of taking this small trip.

Understanding currents is part of basic navigation and planning. Knowing how to power up your boat with the sails should your motor die is basic sailing. Anchoring properly. Even in an emergency basic sailing. Setting out on a offshore trip, even 80 miles requires your boat is in good shape, not suspect, again basic seamanship. Having a time limit and pressure to move the boat before you/ it is ready is how to get in trouble.

So by your own admission in your post you had a calamitous first go at this. Take others who have posted on here's advice and plan and think it through better as wel as use your skills and as James said the "grey" matter. Take someone with you with more experience. Most of us have learned that way. Plan this trip better. It's only 2 days but a lot can go wrong in 2 hours.

Sailing is supposed tone fun and relaxing for the most part. Challenges are present without creating extra ones through poor planning or poor equipment. It will get better over time as your experience increases. Even a 40 mile day sail on a weekend which we do frequently. requires a greater degree of planning than you did it appears.

Don't be discouraged, but listen to the good advice so far here. It's meant as helpful even though its to what you may want to hear.

Dave


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Harborless said:


> Done.


What was your solution for this?


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

The engine has been the problem. I am getting towed to a marina, fixing the engine, scraping the bottom, and getting membership to seatow.
when the engine is fixed i can either sail to st aug then new smryna in two seperate trips, not 80the miles in one go, or i can go down the icw bc ill be able to motor and be towed in case groudning i cant free myself from.
i feel my level of knowlledge is up to the task. When bad things happen i act and by my readings and experiences have been able to be calculated in my decisions, like when my chain plate popped in 25time knots. I just tacked and used my jib halyard and a winch to replace the tension in the shroud. Or the gybe to the bridge. With a reliable engine what will be the major concern in thesse situations? Ill be able to motor and sail! Instead of just sail.
the offshore trip will most likely be skipped in favor of the icw once i know i can safely motor sail.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

I ran my anchor and rode back along outside the stanchions and hung the anchor over the starboard stern rail. Now when im ready to anchor i simpy toss it over the rail. No need to go up to the anchor hatch.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Yea. Im thinking icw forsure once i can motor.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

FoFor those who think i got up one day and decided to sail away... WRONG. I have charts from here to the virgin islands with over 165to anchorages marked off from here to key west. I have all safety gear including harnesses and epirb. I have provisions, water, fule, spare engine parts, oils, lubes, spares for spares. I have thought this though i just did not realize how defunct the engine really was until now.
i am rectfiying the situation. What else do you want?


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

FoFor those who think i got up one day and decided to sail away... WRONG. I have charts from here to the virgin islands with over 100 anchorages marked off from here to key west. I have all safety gear including harnesses and epirb. I have provisions, water, fule, spare engine parts, oils, lubes, spares for spares. I have thought this though i just did not realize how defunct the engine really was until now.
i am rectfiying the situation. Not sure what else i can do.
i will say this however, i have received a quick education in tides and currents. I was not aware the affect they would have but again, once the engine is fixed and bottom smooth these problems should mostly go away. I do have gps as well. Vhf and fixed. All ne w rigging and lines. Shes a worthy and seaworthy sailboat with a sheet engine. Fix the engine and im good.

I want to say thank you to all of those who posted advice and encouragement. I will make it through. Thanks guys.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

There are only two kinds of sailors who have not run aground: those who have not left the dock and those who lie. Dont let that bother ya. I have run aground more times than i can count. People up north often fail to understand that we generally sail in water where there may not be a foot under our keel!!

You cant learn sailing with books and magazines. Real life is different and thats where you learn it. You will make mistakes. Learn from them. 

That being said, i am concerned about what i perceive as your lack of experience on this adventure. Cant you find a buddy who sails to go with you? That would make it more fun too.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

I agree, something is wrong here, engine should easily push against such a weak current. "Engine runs away", WHAT? are you sure it is doing that? Could it be a slipping clutch or slipping prop on shaft that suddenly slips allowing the motor to spin up to max RPM? You might need to check the engine Governor but I doubt it.
Find a good place to anchor and leave her there while you think it over with a clear head.
I too used to get so stressed about sailing stuff I was nearly unable to do anything but that seems to have passed. Now, I concentrate on doing everything slowly even when everybody else says "STOP, You're GONNA HIT THAT BOAT" I'll calmly look things over and consider my actions.
Your boat can take a lot of abuse, hitting a bridge, been there, done that. It's really disconcerting when they close on you. Hitting rocks, done that too and doing so in the river won't hurt you. Resist the temptation to jump overboard to try to fix things, BAD idea.
There is nothing wrong with getting stressed in such unfamiliar conditions, in fact, there'd be something wrong if you weren't. We try tell ourselves that we logically know how to act at times like this but lack of familiarity shuts down the brain.
You might also just be in one of those times of life when you are prone to panic attacks. I went thru that for three years when as soon as I was in open water fear took over and I was unable to think even in calm weather. The human mind is a weird thing.
Keep trying.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

For a boat the size of yours, you might get a 
backup motor" in the form of a dinghy outboard that sits on a liftable mount. Crank her up when you think you might need it for xtra power. Even a 3 hp should push you against substantial current and you can find em cheap on Ebay.


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## katsailor (Jan 6, 2013)

Harborless said:


> I want to say thank you to all of those who posted advice and encouragement. I will make it through. Thanks guys.


Nice, you're learning and will gain the experience you need.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

You also might consider getting a trolling motor with a big prop for max thrust and a big deep cycle battery with solar charger. This would be cheaper than a outboard and mount and would provide emergency thrust.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"There are only two *three *kinds of sailors who have not run aground: those who have not left the dock, *northerners*, and those who lie. "

Your apologies are accepted, Brian. _Some _of us have the luxury of water under the keel and the option of how much to keep there. Personally, I like to know there's enough so I can roll the boat and not get the mast stuck on the bottom, and that's not uncommon in the northeast.

If I had to *ick around playing inches of clearance in thin water...I'd sail a hovercraft. There's damn little reason to run aground unless you've got to use unreliable shoals and shifting inlets. We've got some of those, but I'd rather do what the old Supertramp song says and "take the long way home".

One day the owner of an expensive boat says to me, (navigating & tactics) take us in on this tack as far as you can. I said how far in do you want to go? and he shouts "I told you, take us in as far as we can go". I said that's OK by me, personally I'd tack in ten feet but you tell me we draw six foot six, so if you really want to push it, I'll be glad to go in to SEVEN feet just remember, if we hit some debris down there, _I _wanted to tack at _ten _feet.

We tacked in ten. Rockhopping is a rich man's sport. You lucky sonsasailors just get it muddy when you go aground, that hardly counts as "aground". (G)


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Check your crank case vent, temporarily disconnect it if necessary. That might solve the runaway problem.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

hang in there, harbor- it gets better.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Well your clearly in a painful part of the learning curve greatly exasperated by the need to move the boat 


In reading what you have said the things that stand out to me are that you seem to think the bottom needs scraping at a boat yard ? 

If this is true The boat really will Not get out of its own way and assuming the propeller is equally fouled it would explain why at 3000 RPM run away or not the motor is not able to move the boat 

If a dirty bottom slows you down what do think it does to your boat

A dirty prop will cavatite and provide littel or no thust despite being able to still fully load the motor 

The prop and bottom can be taken care of with a snorkel and a few hours time


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

There are several things going wrong here, but I feel that voicing my opinion will be counter-productive.

All I can say is, good luck and please report in when you reach your destination.


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

It occurs to me that I have done the entire ICW from Cape May, N.J. to Marathon, Fl. without running aground.
Unfortunately, to say that I have to add together bits and pieces from several different trips lol.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

I run aground almost every time I sail here in the Big Bend of FL between Carabelle and TArpon Springs where I tell people "If you can see shore, you're aground". If I DON'T run aground, I figure I'm not trying hard enough to have fun doing something weird. BUT, I sail a cheap old (but very good) boat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Good lessons. Learn and move on.

Don't reject good advice.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

*just one thing to add*

Stick with it!

Try out the suggestions. Measure your speed and establish you can master the currents while motoring. Take it one stage at a time.

Heck, find a SNer to come with you if you need backup.

But whatever you do don't give up!


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Your ordeal proves that you have a lot to learn about sailing. I wish you well, but until you learn a lot more (and buy some liability insurance), please stay far away from others' nice boats.

On a previous thread you went on and on about how you would not pay for insurance because it would delay your departure for your offshore dream. Given your proven lack of experience, I think it would be wise to slow down, learn a little more about sailing, buy insurance, and become a responsible boater.

You've got plenty of time to pursue your dream, but only if you don't kill yourself (and possibly others) first.



Harborless said:


> ...this made me laugh.
> Sorry, no insurance here. Im willing to bet you have uninsured boaters insurance for folks like me who refuse to throw money away.





Harborless said:


> ...I live by the mantra of the Buddah anyway regarding material posession:
> It was lost before you ever found it. I.E. it was broken before it was made, ie.e. all things come and go...





Harborless said:


> ...Here is my reason for not paying 170you per year, which is totally reasonable mind you. If i paid for the haul out and survey then policy right now i would have to put off leaving for yet another year...


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Sal Paradise said:


> Check your crank case vent, temporarily disconnect it if necessary. That might solve the runaway problem.


What is the idea here?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Good show on your new plans and good. Luck.

Get a book or an app to familiar yourself with currents and tides , they are related but not identical. Running aground is a luxury in our sailing area as is yours. Different when you travel o NE or north. Most of us know the difference in the consequences so not an issue.

Sail with others to learn, by yourself to improve skills

I too am concerned like Takefive on your attitude about insurance .

Dave


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Im not getting back into the insurance discussion. We disagree on it. End of that discussion.
i have heeded the advice here. I am postponing the tripp, hiring a diesel mechanic, getting a membership to seatow and then using the icw to make my solo motor sail. Have i not heeded?
so far as scraping my own bottom believe me when i reach new smmyrna i will do it myself. In the st johns? No way. Waters filled with parasites and fecaal matter. No visibility. Im scared of murky muddy water it freaks me out so thats a def no go. In clear water where i can see i have 0 issue.
tommrw morning im meeting the seatow guy and getting towed to arlington marina to fix the diesel and have the bottom done. Hopefully in a few weeks time i will be ready to head out again.
i will hhave so little concern knowing i have a reliable iron genny. Seriously it will. Make all the difference.
thanks for your continued responses. Advice is being heeded.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

I reject the premise that i am deemed irresponsible for not bowing to the insurance. That irks me a bit but your entitled to your opinions and i appreciate your considerations.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

Harborless said:


> ................... In the st johns? No way. Waters filled with parasites and fecaal matter. No visibility. Im scared of murky muddy water it freaks me out so thats a def no go. In clear water where i can see i have 0 issue................


In truth, the fecal coliform level of the St. Johns River is not above average in the US and the parasites you refer to are not present to any degree different from absolutely clear waters. The turbidity of the St. Johns (low visibility) is due to the tannic acid from plant material and identical to the chemicals that are found in a glass of tea that forms a healthy beverage. You may not be comfortable in the river with a low amount of visibility, but that is your own pyschological issue and not a fault of the river. 'best of luck with your voyage and the development of your skills!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Harborless said:


> I reject the premise that i am deemed irresponsible for not bowing to the insurance. That irks me a bit but your entitled to your opinions and i appreciate your considerations.


I certainly did call you irresponsible and quite frankly don't care if you have insurance on yourself or people who you may take on your boat or insure the value of your boat as you don't keep it where I ke mine.

I do believe though that insurance should be required to pay for any environmental impact you would cause from an accident in your boat. For it acne hitting a bridge, sinking and fouling the water with deisel fuel. I or the taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for your accident.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Its definently pychological. Of course its not the rivers fault haha. Its humans, especially nitrogen from fertilizers. Normal is a sad state bc the st johns is disgusting im sorry.
ive always been scared of murky muddy water, not sure i want to try to get over that one.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> I certainly did call you irresponsible and quite frankly don't care if you have insurance on yourself or people who you may take on your boat or insure the value of your boat as you don't keep it where I ke mine.
> 
> I do believe though that insurance should be required to pay for any environmental impact you would cause from an accident in your boat. For it acne hitting a bridge, sinking and fouling the water with deisel fuel. I or the taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for your accident.


Spare me sir, seriously. Spare me. Your advice has been taken under consideration. If you have nothing to contribute besides your insurance opinons please direct your replies elsewhere. Thank you.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

Hmmmmm..........failure to purchase cheap liability insurance reflects poorly on your judgement and seems to me to be an issue of selfishness. If this continues, I predict continuing problems.
I got no prob with following yer dream but you gotta be somewhat responsible when your actions can harm others.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

You guys dont quit, so i will before i lose my politness. One more time id like to thank the responders here. I have a plan of action and will follow it. Will keep you updated. Harborless out.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

Well, I don't expect to convince you but please hear me out. Going without liability insurance is like going to sea in an unseaworthy boat and simply relying on other boaters to rescue you. Not a good thing to do and I'd call it bad karma.
It's cheap too AND you can pay in quarterly installments so if your plans don't work out, you stop paying. The SeaTow thing is insurance (and very worthwhile) so just pay for a quarters worth of liability.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Sounds like the steep part of the curve for sure. Sounds like you are taking some good actions and making some new (good) plans. 

Agree with others that the bottom and prop must be fouled badly, or the current was way more than 1.5kts. I also agree that an engine can't run away in gear, so maybe your transmission is slipping out of gear and you're hearing the engine go up to red-line in neutral...

Good luck with the rest of the voyage. Get some good sleep and usually things look less desperate after some rest. 

Thanks for the description of events. It's hard to swallow your pride and put all your mistakes out there for criticism but you've been rewarded with some good advice here so far for doing so. 

MedSailor


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

The reason I brought up the insurance issue is because your horror story proves how much you need it. If you can't navigate under a bridge without hitting it, what's going to happen when you have to pass through a crowded mooring field or marina - something you'll need to do every time you venture out?

From the impression I get here, at your level of skill and knowledge, you're very likely to damage something at some point and you don't have the financial resources to make someone whole. Insurance will be a bargain for you, and at some point you're probably going to wish you had it.

Your attitude toward insurance seems to be "it won't happen to me." But based on your story here, it already has. That's a very dangerous attitude to have if you're ever planning to go offshore.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Harborless said:


> ....I am postponing the tripp, hiring a diesel mechanic, getting a membership to seatow and then using the icw to make my solo motor sail. Have i not heeded?......


Yes, I've been one to bonk you on the head for insurance too. But, I hope I've offered other useful advice in other threads.

With all due respect, I would suggest a little self-reflection. These examples above are not really heeding other more experienced advice. You are retreating to them after having had a problem that proved to you that you need them.

I only want to point out that, if you wait until you have an issue that proves to you that you need insurance, it could ruin your life. Cause environmental damage and the local municipality can get ugly and follow you forever, until you finish paying.

I know you don't want to hear it, but I've seen many cruising dreams crushed. Yours, you'll probably admit, was starting to look that way and doesn't have to.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

A few suggestions...

Don't worry about the possibility of going aground on the ICW... Nothing but sand and mud between you and New Smyrna, at most a grounding might represent a delay, or an embarrassment... I've explained previously in an earlier thread how easy it is to play the tides going south on the Ditch - riding the flood south from Mayport, and then the ebb down to St Augustine, and so on... As underpowered as you are, you must figure out how to take advantage of the significant currents that exist in that area, and be prepared to wait for them to turn to your advantage...

Don't be attempting to sail through bridges, as others have mentioned, you can see some very weird effects of wind and tide in close proximity to a bridge...

Don't ever attempt to shut down a diesel, no matter how small, by putting your hand over the intake... Use something like a leather glove, or some similar lint-free implement...

Take advantage of having a mechanic aboard to learn as much as possible... You really have to become more self-sufficient in terms of being able to deal with engine issues, and I'd highly recommend you pick up a copy of Peter Compton's TROUBLESHOOTING MARINE DIESELS for reference, it's the best place to start, IMHO...

If you experience further problems with the boat, St Augustine is one of the better places in Florida to attempt to sort them out... Some good yards there that cater to DIY cruisers, and between Sailor's Exchange and other suppliers, good access to parts and gear... St Augustine is a pretty small town, most everything within walking distance of where your boat will be, and a large community of sailors who can help you out with advice, whatever... You really want to try to have things more sorted out before proceeding beyond St. Augustine, a comparably convenient opportunity for DIY-ers really doesn't exist again until you get down around Ft Pierce...

Your experience so far highlights the value/necessity of a Shakedown cruise prior to the commencement of The Big One... So, perhaps you should modify your perspective, and put yourself in the frame of mind that this trip to New Smyrna is your shakedown for the time being. Don't try to think too much beyond that right now, concentrate on getting your engine and bottom issues sorted between now and then, and then take it from there...


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## Roger Long (May 28, 2012)

Frogwatch said:


> Failure to purchase cheap liability insurance reflects poorly on your judgement and seems to me to be an issue of selfishness. If this continues, I predict continuing problems.





TakeFive said:


> Your attitude toward insurance seems to be "it won't happen to me." But based on your story here, it already has. That's a very dangerous attitude to have if you're ever planning to go offshore.


I agree. Attitude is one of the most vital components of seamanship. I think we'll be hearing more about this guy but not necessarily from him. Locals, keep your eyes on the newspapers.



Harborless said:


> You guys dont quit, so i will before i lose my politness.


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

I too am new to the larger boat sailing thing. I too have a dream, like most of us on this BB. At one point or another we all wanted our freedom. Large boat boats offer us that vehicle. They way I started on my path was not much different than yours. However, I have been sailing this 30 foot C&C boat for over a year. Learning her, Getting to understand her quirks is important . How she responds in a large puff. How close to the bottom a 5' keel relay is. I live on the ICW between mm 430 and 545 . Beaufort SC has a 9' spring flood tide with shifting sands ever ware. With a deep draft vessel like mine "5 foot" local knowledge is very important., What i don't do is sail around outside the channel on a falling tide. If you think about what this means, I could be sailing around with 3 to 4 feet under the keel on the full spring tide and 5 hours later be laying on my side on a sand bar. I have been learning the center if the river. 
The other thing is the AICW has many things in common within the eastern seaboard. Here in the south the prevailing winds will come from the south. Most any of us going south will have to beat into the wind. That being sail at least leave with the outgoing tide to give you some help.
This weekend, my wife and I leave on our first overnight trip down the AICW. After work on Friday we head 16 miles south to Hilton Head Island. We will spend the night there. Saturday we will sail the calibogue sound out to Georgia and the TYBEE roads shipping channel. Then, back north, north east to Dafuuskie island. We will spend the night here at the Free-port marina $49.00. Then head back to Port Royal on Saturday.
I’m very anxious of this trip as you are after your first leg. The difference is I have spent a year preparing for this trip. 
1) I have a Boat Us towing account.
2) I have insurance on my boat.
3) I have spent hours and hours on my systems.
4) bleeding the injectors not because I had air but because I wanted to know how to do it before I lost power.
5) Raw water strainer rebuild.
6) All lights cabin and top side.
7) U-tube study how to do everything: Anchor, Mooring, GPS use. Map reading, Radio use, Chart plotting, Bottom cleaning, Mast climbing, Pressure alcohol stove use. 
tie knots.
8) Stuffing box emergency repair use.
9) Pitch, yaw and roll
I have been studying for a year.
I have all safety gear except an "epirb" I will get one as soon as I can affords one. I will never be outside the AICW. On and on and on. I I’m not sure I am ready. But I do think We will be safe.
Long story I know. I just think by your story that my anxiaty level may be worse than yours and I have not left the dock yet. Plus I have spent considerable more time and money to make sure I have not missed something. the good thing is if I sink my boat in Beaufort SC it wont take on water.
I think you should do more home work and Have fun. It will be fine. Spend the time and money that could save your life. Taking a wild ride just to write a book will be a fool’s game if you never get a chance to write it. Follow your dream but be safe. And don’t crash into my boat without insurance. I would have to take some of your stuff and sell it to cover your damages.
Peace.
Capt. Burt


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Harborless said:


> I reject the premise that i am deemed irresponsible for not bowing to the insurance. That irks me a bit but your entitled to your opinions and i appreciate your considerations.


I hate to break this to you, but SeaTow _is_ insurance! It's towing insurance. You've already abandoned your principles, so why don't you do the right thing, and pick up some cheap liability insurance to protect you from damage you may/will cause other people's vessels and dockworks, or environmental damage?

...and no, I don't have "uninsured boater" insurance to protect me from people like you as you indicated in an earlier post. You seem quite comfortable dumping your responsibility onto others.

What I see here, is someone who has done a lot of reading, and has a certain level of knowledge, but a low level of experience.

Because you are confusing "knowledge" with "experience", you have set off, thinking that you know all you need to know. Your attitude and experience indicate otherwise. You need more practice.

You have cut critical corners in your planning (functional engine, clean hull and prop, towing and/or liability insurance) in order to pinch pennies and adhere to a schedule. YOU acknowlege NO responsibility in your recent trials. It's all the engine's fault, or the current's fault, or the dirty hull's fault. You should have had items #3 - #6 ironed out before you departed.

Here's the summary:

Fix the engine (which you are doing)
Repair your centerboard pennent (unclear if you are doing this)
Clean the hull and prop (which you are doing)
SeaTow (which you have done)
Liability (which you still refuse to do)
Practice, practice, practice (which you think you do not need)
--------------

Ok now that I've crapped all over you, let me also say that I think you have real potential. I think you can become a good sailor with more practice and a bit of an attitude adjustment.

Good luck.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Having watched you and read your threads over the year or so since you got your boat, your measured approach to learning its systems will bode you well and you have nothing to worry about. You have prepared yourself well.

Cant wait to hear you next installment.

Murphy lives on every boat.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I hate to break this to you, but SeaTow _is_ insurance! .


So is an EPIRB which he carries.


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## Roger Long (May 28, 2012)

jephotog said:


> So is an EPIRB which he carries.


Well it's only insurance if you are going to otherwise die or be at significant risk of death or injury. Short of that, it's just a very round about and indirect way of calling TowboatUS or Seatow while annoying the Coast Guard.

Unless there is a threat to life or the environment, the Coast Guard is just going to call a private towing company. They will call the one you have insurance with. If you don't have the insurance, they will just call anyone and you could end up paying about as much as the boat being discussed here is worth. They really soak the uninsured.

An EPIRB is only useful in situations in which you wind up soaking wet on a dock with your boat just a memory.


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## Silvio (Nov 10, 2010)

Harborless,
You got some solid and sound advice above. Take it as it is intended, as good sound advice to assist you. 

Staying inside sounds like a good plan. I and many others on this board have travelled the area you are traversing both inside and outside and there is a LOT of experience at your command here. I travelled the inside between St. Augustine and Jax NAS last year, aside from the river through downtown Jacksonville it was a pleasant trip and simple navigation, plenty of anchorage around St. Augustine watch out for sunken, unlit sailboats just north of the bridge if you come in after dark! Ask me how I know...

Hopefully you can take advantage of the down time to make repairs, regroup, get your head together and go on your voyage. Try not to get ruffled on the insurance discussion as I am certain it is intended in the same manner that trip planning, maintenance, and understanding navigation advice is given, to help you along your way by offering up the combined centuries of experience for you to learn from and lean on. 

Keep us posted and best of luck!


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## Roger Long (May 28, 2012)

Is this crazy season or what? Maybe it happens every spring. I just got a PM from someone setting out on their first cruise with what looks at first blush like reasonable practice and preparation. However, they are going to dock every night because _they have never anchored the boat!_

One of the docks they were planning on stopping at is a boat killer that I sheered away from with my 40+ years (24,000 nm in the last five alone) experience. What would they have done it they got there late in the day with good anchorages not far away? What would they have done if they had an engine failure in current with no wind?

I strongly suggested they spend the time completing their basic education and practice.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

Here is an easy and cheap way to clean his bottom and prop enough for him to get where he wants. This is what I do when I am too far from somewhere with haulout facilities. Go to Home Depot and buy a long handled tool that looks like a garden hoe but has a straight blade. I am not sure what most people use em for but I use it to clean my hull from the dock as it can reach waaaaaaaay down in the water. I can also use it to clean my prop from the dock EVEN IN MURKY WATER.
In the morning, before the water gets stirred up, you can generally see your prop from the dock and you can use this thing to clean it. If you really want to do it right, you can lower your boarding ladder and stand on the bottom rung and do it from there and then you can also do the aft turn of the hull.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Actually, an EPIRB is after all an EMERGENCY positioning beacon, and it is supposed to be used for emergency and distress purposes only.

Being inconvenienced, aground in a harbor, is not an emergency and is not distress. So tripping an EPIRB in that situation, when there are other alternatives (like, wait an hour) qualifies as a false distress signal and if you catch someone in a less than generous mood, they'll send you a nice bill for that.

All more reasons to take some basic boating safety course.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Roger Long said:


> Well it's only insurance if you are going to otherwise die or be at significant risk of death or injury.


My point was he does believe in insurance, just not for his victims.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

As a number of you have taken up a particular interest in these postings I will attempt to articulate a response thorough enough to conclude the situation at present. Now, as I begin I would like to remind those of you familiar with my postings that I have been sailing since a small boy. I began on SunFish in the Bahamas at the island of Man-o-War often racing my brothers and cousins in races around the Abaco sea, and when older, the island its self. Graduating on to the Hobie 16 when I was old enough I became familiar with the concept of a multi-hull and jib. I will say that I never took it upon myself to learn its use enough to sail it solo, or even as the dominate captain. 
Move forward.
I have a blinding revelation, I should become a sailor. How else could I travel and live the life of a freeman in this age of economic slavery. 
I spend the next year reading every posting I can find. I join Sail Lazer Jacksonville and go sailing every day there is wind on SunFish, Lazers, Beheas and Hobies. Solo. Had a bad day one day, check the posting- demasting I think it was. buy chapman’s, blue water cruisers handbooks, how to inspects the boats guides and join any number of dedicated sailing forums. I look at thousands of boats online all the time. Tartans, cheoy-lees, the beautiful constellations- imagining what I would make my own. What should I acquire I wondered? Sloop rig? Spaded or finned? Inboard or out? I study designs, plans, features, books, marinas, docks, anchorages looking. Learning. Waiting.
I find her. She sits at the Ortega yacht club marina. A beautiful specimen really, clear as chalk and marked with the loving tlc of a Florida climate. Yet, I could stand upright in her cabin, stretch out fully in her bed. I could crank her iron genny and she appeared to have a real working toilet. Whats that you ask? Only $2900.00? Hahaha my good man I am taking you up on her. 
I own a 26’4” 1979 AMF Paceship Py26 at the age of 23. Yay to me. Time to get to work.
Where’s that old inspecting book at? Oh here it is. Page one.
Well… The build begins. The keel seems okay, but better haul her to make sure. 
Boat is hauled, scraped, sanded, painted, seacocks removed, seacocks put in (my lads, you think I can afford labor at $75 per hour, I laugh at you once more. This work is being done by me, the 23 year old irresponsible crap o person) Marlon is nice. My study of the properties of the composites led me to choose it over my favored traditional brass cousins who are so prone to the ravages of electrolysis. Not very expensive either. I am the penny pincher, as you all seem to know so well.
Seacocks put in, all of them. All parts included. Starboard makes good backing material. Of course I reinforce everything I install, what am I an idiot?
Engine blows up. Crap. Don’t know anything about that. Better download the manual. 
Hmmm…. Seems I need to dissect this further. Need to get towed back to marina, cost money to sit out of water.
Removed mounting bolts, they seem loose. Remind myself to get bigger mounting bolts and go deeper upon reinstallation. Engine removed. Start with clutch, move to transmission. Manual specifies bell housing unit B to be the culprit. No spares, discontinued since 1992, Damn you yanmar!
What to do. Buy a whole new transmission. Said transmission arrives, said transmission is installed. Problem fixed. Yay to me. Why does she not drive at all however? Because the prop is completely ate through of course! Electrolysis! Replaced. Better do the anodes while I’m add it, there cheap anyway. Replaced. Hmm, seems to me that stuffing box material is not in good condition. Replaced. Lets take her out for a go. Running away? But how? Not sure… Too advanced for myself, not the right tools. Back to Sadler. Old man will shows me the deal. Take off the engine face plate, remove governor mechanism and fuel rack assembly. Clean and polish. Remove engine crud. Refill and reinstall. Works for awhile, then runs away again one day. No method or timing, just madness. How to diagnose? Very expensive to hire. Read manual again. Must be internal chamber valves allowing oil or gas? Exaust maybe? Mixing elbow? Checked, fixed, replaced. Nope not it. Guess Ill have to leave it for another time. She always runs at least 5 minutes before running so for the time being this will have to suffice.
Back to work. Lights don’t work. Replace. Wires not marine grad tin, rectify. Wires ran through bilge, nonono. Reroute through bulkhead and then direct into mast- that took awhile. No more water logged wires. Battery old? Ditched, three replace it. Need power? Install 80W solar panel on stern rail with custom built design. Fabricated on docks of said marina by said self. Installed. Regulator installed. Inverter installed. Outlets installed. Now Im getting self sufficient.
Lines rotted through. Shrouds strands showing. Spreaders dust. Mast corroded at bottom. Nothing works at top. Mast must come down. Mast comes down, is chopped sheathed and reinserted. While this is done I replace entire rigs standing rigging and lines including all shackles and blocks. Wire mast lights. Make sure you use tie cables that stick out to fill the void in the mast to avoid pesky sound of wires hitting metal. Nice touch, thanks I know.
Antenna replaced, mast head light replaced, anchor light replaced. Spreaders replaced. Mast dropped back in. Now what? Leaky port holes, need to fix. Bought, installed. Water intrusion under the toe rail? Need to remove toe rail, fill with epoxy, rebore and reset. Done. Whats that? Light ports on bow leak? Replaced. Solar vent installed. Latches for hatches replaced. Compass mounted. Instruments mounted. Engine start up panel destroyed. Need to install new one. Done. Install new fuel cut-off. Replace old circuit breaker, rewire. Reinstalled. 
Rotten wood under toilet? Sink too? Torn out, replaced. Nice trim added, gives clean touch. Toilet leaks. Too old. New toilet purchased. Works great. Need y-valve however, don’t like to be irresponsible and pump waste overboard. Try to be somewhat responsible. Y-valve installed, exit valve installed. Pump-out now possible.
Water tank replaced. Water hoses replaced. Water pumps sinks sink faucets replaced. Do you see where this is going? I am not even HALF WAY DONE YET YOU PEOPLE CONTINUE TO PRESUME. I have not even made it to all of the addiotnal safety devices installed nor have I begun to cover the barometers, thermometers, clocks, compasses, hammock nets, grills, stoves and everything else you have to have to live someplace. Dishes, soap, cleaning products, sheets, towels, pillows; everything you have in your house I have acquired and put on my boat. I even bought an inflatable dinghy so I can anchor out and avoid paying dock fees. Am I not self sufficient? I have rain catchers, solar vents, solar panels, four anchors, 45’ chain, 250’ line plus however many other spares pieces of line I have. Tiller locks, extra belts, impellers, oils lubes.. Anyway you get the point.
So. I have not liability. Well then I will continue to be the irresponsible dimwit you all seem to know so well. If an insurance guy REALLY knew his sh!t he would not require an additional haul out and out of water survey to insure a 30+ yr old sailboat worth less than 10k with simple liability when I have DOCUMENTED RECORDS AND PICUTRE EVIDENCE recording almost all work done.. But he does, and IM NOT BITING!!!! Enjoy my future postings.
The entire time this is happening the boat is being sailed when possible. Almost every time out disaster is averted. Chain plate pops in 25 knots, anchor line breaks lose, main sail rips, engine runs away, rocks get close, muddy bottom gets closer. Hit the dock a few times coming in, just a scuff. Glad I read all those stories of disasters at sea so whenever disaster tried to happen to me I immediately acted. Solo sailing the st johns is not bad. Never tried to sail OUT OF THE ST JOHNS until now, boat was not ready, being rebuilt. Forgive me for the learning curve. I KNOW I need offshore experience, I know I need practice. I will continue to get both now that my boat is ready( or almost, damn diesel)
Diesel will not make it. I cannot handle stress. Damn it I need to fix the diesel. So what am I doing? I just had the boat towed to a marina where it is being worked on by a diesel expert. My gold membership to tow US is a plus. I am glad I listened to this advice.

But do not presume that my boat is not seaworthy or the captain an idiot. I have seen island packets less seaworthy than my Strong Back. And I BUILT HER WITH MY HANDS. 
I will get the experience. I will make it. I will not lose my boat and I will not hit yours. Stay out of my way those of you on the other end of this discussion. I have nothing further to comment to you.
Harborless, OUT!


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

That li'l YSM8 is a simple engine and should be ultra-reliable.
Describe "running away" Does it happen only in gear or does it ever happen in neutral?Could it be a situation of the shift button jumping back into neutral and then speeding up cuz no load?
Why doesn't your choke cable work to shut her down? Even if the cable doesnt work you can go in the cabin and manually do it rather than putting something over the intake.
Get to know yer engine and eventually will fall in love with it for what it is, a simple piece of equipment that works most of the time with the right maintenance. Be sure you know how and why to bleed the fuel system. Do it numerous times so you know what to look for with air on the lines. Be sure you know how to change your intake impeller (it has been changed hasn't it?) and take a spare impeller. Take a spare water pump /alternator drive belt (they are prob separate). When starting up, ALWAYS look behind for the cooling water coming out the exhaust. What color is your smoke?


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

I'll admit, the world looks diff to a 23 yr old (you) and a 56 yr old (me). You are the same age as my son and he won't take my advice either until much later. At 23, I was struggling with every penny too so I do understand. You have the advantage of youth because most of us want to see young people succeed at something like you are doing so we want to help them. By the time you get to my age, people think you should know it by now.
I always thought my son had absorbed the boating stuff he saw me do but I now realize how much he doesn't know he doesn't know. Yesterday we were working on my Tolman Skiff and he held up a bolt and I said, "looks like a 8-32" and he had a puzzled look cuz he didn't even know what that meant.
My sailing advice is to not beat yourself up mentally over stuff you are afraid to do. Most of the time it is your inner common sense operating even if you logically tell yourself you coulda done it.
So, good luck and I hope we do cross paths cuz I want you to succeed.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

_"Stay out of my way those of you on the other end of this discussion. I have nothing further to comment to you.
Harborless, OUT!" _

Harborless, I am on your side.

Google hypomania if you will. Here is a link

Hypomania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know how it is , I have a touch of it too, but very mild. Some great people have it. There are pills you can take. Please be safe.

Kindest Regards

Sal


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Nothing better than the poster to prove the point time and time again.

Your title "My horror story". Your words. Almost lost the boat, hit the bridge. Your words. You were shaking. Your words

Good luck to you since you at least have the sense of adventure. With the attitude you have you will have no shortage of adventures for sure. Fair winds Harborless. Stay away from the Chesapeake, we and all of our bridges, boats and environment will all be safe here


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

Harborless, this is a great story.
I for one commend you for putting this out here & being as honest as you've been. I hope you get your boat sorted out & the rest of your trip goes smoothly.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Frogwatch said:


> That li'l YSM8 is a simple engine and should be ultra-reliable.
> Describe "running away" Does it happen only in gear or does it ever happen in neutral?Could it be a situation of the shift button jumping back into neutral and then speeding up cuz no load?
> Why doesn't your choke cable work to shut her down? Even if the cable doesnt work you can go in the cabin and manually do it rather than putting something over the intake.
> Get to know yer engine and eventually will fall in love with it for what it is, a simple piece of equipment that works most of the time with the right maintenance. Be sure you know how and why to bleed the fuel system. Do it numerous times so you know what to look for with air on the lines. Be sure you know how to change your intake impeller (it has been changed hasn't it?) and take a spare impeller. Take a spare water pump /alternator drive belt (they are prob separate). When starting up, ALWAYS look behind for the cooling water coming out the exhaust. What color is your smoke?


There is no real exciseable patter to discern. Ive ran the engine hours with no issue. Ive run it two minutes and it run away. There is no pattern other than a flucuating of rpms followed by a sudden and immense upswing in rpms known as run away.
It has happened in neutral as well, which is so much more dangerous since it would rev up until explosion. The smoke starts white and goes grey to black. Also you can smell diesel and see diesel in the water behind the boat. Choke cable doesnt work bc diesles run off compression not injection. Cutting gas will do nothing, must kill air intake. I do have spares for everytinh on the engine so far as filters belts impellers and gaskets. I purchased a complete anmar kit from french ltd motors. I am blessed to have a family member high up in the boating industry. A specialized yanmar mechanic is coming down to find the problem and solution. Family is a blesssing like no other. No worries about the chesapeake, i lived there before. Too cold for my southern blood. Does that mean i can tell you to stay out of fl? I think you get the crap end of that deal..


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

I added a fuel pump to remove any air from the lines as well. I just pump it before start up to build fuel pressure and eliminate any air from the lines. I bleed reguarlry. The benefit of this rebuild will be an accuarte log with hours logged for running and maintenance. To this point such knowledge has been impossible to know accurately.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Haha. I love it. Sounds like Chase when i told him you cant jump that far.

Listen, i remember those years. Been there too. I was the guy out sailing hobies too. Been there done that. 

I have avoided the insurance thing because i have a slightly different view than my brethren. I really couldn't care less if you carry it for your boat. Your decision. There was once a saying amongst cruisers that you know you were ready to go when you dropped insurance. I just met another awesome couple with kids that said insurance is a joke in s america. They just sailed from sf to marathon with two boys on a catalina 38... So i take them serious. Other friends of ours on a panda 38 (expensive boat) sail without it.... For the moment. Now listen to the caveat:

I have do e this for a long time. The world is changing. Many marinas and even mooring fields require insurance in the us now. The last two we have used even require you to list them as payees on the policy. No kidding. If not, good riddance.

Keep that in mind on your travels. I actually wish you the best. Heading up your way in next 60 days. Hope to see ya out there. Take a deep breath and have a beer. It all works out, bro. Get your boat together and get out there. You ain't the first person that screwed up or had problems. Builds character. 

Just don't hit my boat!! (Snicker)

Brian


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## OPossumTX (Jul 12, 2011)

If your engine is running away and cutting off the fuel does not stop it, it is getting fuel some where else! 

Most likely is source of uncontrolled fuel is crank case oil. One engine with an oil bath air filter would run away if the oiler (AKA idgit!) over filled the oil bath air filter. 

If the engine is blowing oil out of the crank case vent back into the intake, check to make certain that the crank case is not over filled. You may even have the wrong dip stick in that thing. If the level is OK on the stick, see if you can find another engine like yours and compare them. 

Another possibility is the baffle in the crank case vent line may by improperly assembled, parts missing or? Check the parts you have against the manual to make sure yours is put together right. 

I have also seen diesels runaway when other fuel is introduced with the air. Natural gas can do it, even paint fumes if concentrated enough. If you are squirting MMO into the intake to loosen stuck valves or fogging oil preparing for storage, know that a diesel will treat anything flammable as fuel if it can get into the cylinder and will burn. 

My diesel experience is with heavy equipment and some smaller stationary engines, generators, pumps and such. Over filling the crankcase can lead to a runaway that is only stopped by restricting the air as you say. Some engines have a cable operated emergency shutdown damper on the air intake for just this problem. I have shutdown smaller engines as you did by putting my hand over the intake. Gosh that thing can suck can't it!

Have FUN!
O'


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Didn't go back to read everything but the runaway may be caused by an accumulation of blow-by oil vapors condensing in a low spot of the breather hose or somewhere in the manifold. Runs ok until enough oil accumulates, the runs away, using the oil up until the next time. Maybe the crankcase is overfilled. A stretch, but maybe your electric pump is "over supplying" the injector pump?

Paul T

Didn't see the above post


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I am betting his prop is fouled or clutch is slipping.


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## Bradhamlet (Nov 8, 2002)

A little off topic but when was the last bottom scrub? Here in So. Cal. the water is still cold by my standers low 60's, any way I scrub it every 6-8 weeks and by the 8th week its is a little like Finding Nemo down there and the prop O boy their are little fish swimming around it. It looks like a bush around the prop. As others have sail maybe a good scrub will so the trick. Good luck the posts have been interesting.

Brad 
Lancer 36


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Harborless,

I got to give you props for putting all that out there to be viewed, knowing its going to be criticized. 

Has many have said, take a deep breath and dont give up. I'm sure many have propsed this already, but try to find someone who could asssit you. First going over the boat, then taking it out even if just to motor around at first. 

We have all been there in some form or another


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Harborless, some of the things you have done don't make a whole lot of sense- like adding a fuel pump, and then pumping to build up pressure before starting. You don't need to do this.

if the engine runs away regularly, and won't die when you pull the fuel supply cut-off knob, (or kill knob, or "choke cable" as the device is also known) it's getting fuel from an additional source.
Diesels are simple engines, and problems usually occur when people try to overcomplicate them by adding parts they don't need to overcome user error.
Start with the basics- drank your crankcase oil. If it smells like diesel, and it will, you've found your problem.

By pumping fuel under pressure into the system you have likely blown any number of gaskets, o-rings, and seals, and instead of increasing reliability, you have created a problem.
Forcing too much fuel into the engine simply builds a bomb.
The only time you maybe, might, possibly need to pump fuel into the engine is after emptying the fuel filter bowl or changing the filter. this is where a diesel grade hand bulb- style pump is a thoughtful addition to the fuel system assisting bleeding.

Regarding bleeding:
You shouldn't need to bleed your fuel system very often. Bleed it when you change or drain fuel filters, if you run the tank dry, or if you have had to service any of the fuel lines and have introduced air into the system.
That's it.
That's all.
If you feel a need to bleed it more often, you simply aren't bleeding it properly.

You have an engine that is world -renowned for it's simplicity, reliability and grunt. Sometimes they can be hard to start. if you're seeing a ton of smoke, it's time to do a compression test. i bet, just based on the symptoms, you have an engine with low comp[ression due to worn rings, and those smae worn rings are letting the excess of fuel easily into the crankcase, and letting that diesel-enhanced crankcase oil back into the combustion chamber.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

And northwesterners. Oh we got depth. I can anchor so close to cliffs I could touch them if I tried.

First advice ill give you since we are doing the same thing is fix the engine and then sail like you're doing. Great advice on these forums but too much "go buy more crap, and not enough "go sail your boat". Half the answers to these posts are telling you you've no business sailing more than ten feet from the harbor, well I too don't understand how some things happened to you the way they did. Maybe we would just have to be there.

I think you have enough gear and experience to sail down the feeling coast of Florida 80 mikes I mean come on you're giving this guy a hard time? Just fix the engine and you'll be fine.



hellosailor said:


> "There are only two *three *kinds of sailors who have not run aground: those who have not left the dock, *northerners*, and those who lie. "
> 
> Your apologies are accepted, Brian. _Some _of us have the luxury of water under the keel and the option of how much to keep there. Personally, I like to know there's enough so I can roll the boat and not get the mast stuck on the bottom, and that's not uncommon in the northeast.
> 
> ...


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## bristol299bob (Apr 13, 2011)

In regards to your yanmar running away, I've seen happen a few times. The cause is generally due to the engine sucking in engine oil and combusting it as fuel. That's why the fuel shut off does not stop the engine, it's not running on engine fuel at the time of runaway. 
When it happens you will see tons of smoke. Also you'll see raw fuel/oil exiting the exhaust along with all that smoke.

The simplest reason for this is an overfilled crankcase. Check your oil level, the solution might be as simple as draining out some oil to the proper level. 

Another possibility is you have an extremely worn engine. It would have to be very far gone to routinely suck enough engine oil past the rings to run away like you say. A compression test should tell the tale.

I'm voting for overfilled engine oil.

Oh, you are right on that cutting off airflow is the only way to stop it. But do consider using something other than bare hand to cover the air intake. Plywood or starboard would be good if you have some scraps.

Ps bravo for putting it all out there.


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## Roger Long (May 28, 2012)

northoceanbeach said:


> I think you have enough gear and experience to sail down the feeling coast of Florida 80 mikes I mean come on you're giving this guy a hard time?


Damned dangerous advice to be giving from the northwest where the water is deep, as you say.

I've sailed the northwest myself. I've also sailed almost the exact route where this horror show happened.

If he couldn't navigate from that point A to point B without running aground and you think he should be trying to find his way into a southeastern ocean inlet, tired and fuzzy thinking after an 80 mile solo sail, you haven't seen what can happen in shoal water and ocean swells.

Written by someone who has looked up at the inside of the tube of a breaking wave from a cruising sailboat a few minutes after the owner said, "It's my boat, I'll sail it where I damn well please and, if you don't like it, you can sit in the cabin."


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

How long were you at Ortega? We bought our boat there in August and spent about 2 months traveling up there to work on her. If you've been there a year, it's likely we met. 

We made the same trip you are, from the same marina, with similar destinations and less experience. The boat we bought at Ortega was our first and sailing her south from Ortega was the first time we sailed a boat on our own, so we had some lessons too. 

Fortunately for us, the community at Ortega was awesome and everyone there gave us a lot of good advice on planning and such, so we planned our departure to go with the tide, which in our case bought us 2 or 3 knots. Had we not done that, we would have likely made many of the same mistakes. What's worse, the winds were not favorable and we had to motor with our 6hp outboard much of the way (our boat is 27ft, close to 8000lbs). I was a nervous wreck most of the way and found that contributed to a lot of the mistakes we made. 

My general suggestion is to chill out and take everything in stride, take a deep breath. We ran aground too, but we saw some cool birds and my wife learned to stay closer to the markers and GPS. Lesson learned. 

As I mentioned in your other thread, keep an eye out for the entrance to the ICW, if you take it. Apparently it used to be well marked, I don't know when that was but it wasn't the case when we got there. There is also a restricted area nearby (or was 6 months ago) and submerged rocks. It is not anything to be worried about, but you need to keep a keen eye out and make sure you don't pass it, we almost did. We got there at low tide, I'd imagine most of the rocks would be submerged at high tide, so don't make any shortcuts.

Sea Tow is invaluable, but keep in mind they take 1-2 hours to arrive. We were 5 miles from one of their boats in JAX beach and it took them over an hour to arrive. They were awesome, but don't expect speedy service, I'd flag down another boater while you wait and call to let Sea Tow know you've been pulled off. I'd say with almost certainty you will run aground, more likely depending on what kind of equipment you have. The ICW in that area is not well maintained and you have to use your intuition to figure out how to follow the markers. If you have a GPS and stick to the marked channel, you'll be fine. The Sea Tow captains are also really helpful if you call ahead and need advice on certain areas, which I'd advise prior to arriving in St Augustine, as that area can be deceiving depth wise. 

If it makes you feel any better, when we made this trip we almost missed the ICW, ended up doing 3 loops trying to get the headsail down outside the mouth of the ICW, nearly hit a buoy too. On day 2, we ran aground 5 miles from the marina we were at that night. On day 3, our motor died, I freaked out and tossed the anchor over the stern, the current pulled us around and nearly got wrapped around the motor, I had to cut anchor. I learned a lot of lessons in those 3 days. You'll find yourself a lot more relaxed if you just expect things to go wrong and deal with it as it comes. 

We stopped at a JAX Beach Marina for the night, everyone was friendly, the accommodations were nice, and the food was decent. When you stop in St. Augustine, be sure to hit up Columbia's downtown. 

Have fun and remember you are probably doing more sailing now that many people on this board have in the past year. Enjoy the learning experience, I know we did and still are.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Dude. It's Florida. What are the waves today, .5 feet with 7 knots of onshore wind? 

You don't get killed running aground in a channel when it's 80 degrees outside. It may suck but he's not rounding the cape. 

It's Florida. You'll be fine*. We've got lakes in this country rougher than Florida 

* unless there's a hurricane


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

Harborless,

You said you messed with the governor "mechanism". Is it possible that a spring or fork lever is getting stuck somehow? Does the "runaway" occur after you were at full throttle and will simply not throttle down? Was it reassembled correctly? Is the fuel control rack lever sliding smoothly? 
Lastly, is the throttle cable and lever sticking?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

northoceanbeach said:


> Dude. It's Florida. What are the waves today, .5 feet with 7 knots of onshore wind?
> 
> You don't get killed running aground in a channel when it's 80 degrees outside. It may suck but he's not rounding the cape.
> 
> ...


Yeah, what could possibly go wrong when running an inlet on the Atlantic coast of Florida?

This professional charter boat captain with decades of experience lost his life on what appears to have been a pretty placid day...



















A place like Ponce Inlet could easily eat this kid's boat alive, if something happened to go wrong at just the 'right' time...


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

northoceanbeach said:


> Dude. It's Florida. What are the waves today, .5 feet with 7 knots of onshore wind?
> 
> You don't get killed running aground in a channel when it's 80 degrees outside. It may suck but he's not rounding the cape.
> 
> ...


Dude

It's Florida and they have a pretty extensive and expensive reef injury prevention act and in general get pretty pissy about stuck boats


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

Harborless said:


> ....................... Boat is hauled, scraped, sanded, painted, seacocks removed, seacocks put in ...................... Buy a whole new transmission........................ the prop is completely ate through of course! Electrolysis! Replaced. ...............Works for awhile (Engine), then runs away again one day................ Damn it I need to fix the diesel .............


I've no interest in judging you, but I am interested in the puzzle you've presented with the performance of your engine. How much time in the water was there between the prop replacement and the current loss of performance? Is excessive growth on this new prop a potential cause of your lack of performance? You didn't mention a cure for the "runs away" problem and I'm not sure what "runs away" means. Could the engine be "running away" because it's not under load? ...the the transmission becomming disengaged?... Is the shaft turning at these events? Is the new prop properly fixed to the shaft? I'm presenting these questions in pursuit of problem solving only, not to imply any incompetence on your part. Good luck and I hope your future adventures are not all repair!


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

And people have gotten killed crossing the street. It doesn't make walking dangerous.


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## Roger Long (May 28, 2012)

northoceanbeach said:


> And people have gotten killed crossing the street. It doesn't make walking dangerous.


For the sake of inexperienced sailors here, will you please top throwing around irresponsible platitudes about inlets.

The applicable extension of your analogy in this case would be walking across the middle of the block at rush hour talking on your cell phone and not looking at the traffic. So far, our boy hasn't shown that he can make it across the sidewalk without tripping over his feet. Even experienced sailors can get in trouble in these places as the photos above demonstrate.

You don't have to get rolled or capsized. A simple grounding with a ground swell running is very different from one in inland waters. The lifting and dropping of the boat can drive the keel of many production boats right through the hull before you can say, "Where's the radio?"


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Roger Long said:


> For the sake of inexperienced sailors here, will you please top throwing around irresponsible platitudes about inlets.
> 
> The applicable extension of your analogy in this case would be walking across the middle of the block at rush hour talking on your cell phone and not looking at the traffic. So far, our boy hasn't shown that he can make it across the sidewalk without tripping over his feet. Even experienced sailors can get in trouble in these places as the photos above demonstrate.
> 
> You don't have to get rolled or capsized. A simple grounding with a ground swell running is very different from one in inland waters. The lifting and dropping of the boat can drive the keel of many production boats right through the hull before you can say, "Where's the radio?"


Hell, even a grounding on the Ditch can sometimes be ruinous... This 42-footer was lost 3 months ago after running aground in the in the tricky section behind Ponce Inlet... In their effort to back off, they grounded again hard in reverse, and tore the rudder and skeg right out of the boat...


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

I installed the fuel pump after running out of fuel and having to bleed the hoses manual.
i will post a full report when one is provided to me.
i plan on simply motororing the entire way down the icw once the engine is fixed. I have a gold membership covers me up to 3500build per incident. Once the engine is fixed so are my concerns.
thanks for all your interest.
i bought the boat at oycm in june 11. Its been there since. I am sure i have seen you at least. Your cutting anchor sucks, but ive already done that haha.

Will keep you all posted but for the next week or two i dont think anything much will happen.
crank case could be... idk. Ive done all i can as alayman. Professional coming down now.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

I am familiar with the ditch you speak of. Half my family of real sailors live in new smyrna. However i will not be traversing that inlet without my uncle. We plan on doing an overnight offshore trip memorial weekend. He is a lufetime sailor. Just got to make it down there then i will gain worlds of offshore experience from the a great sailor.
Thats scary though, they lose there boat like that. Most sailboats sink due to stuffing box d glas ssome of you believe that i cant cross a sidewalk. .apparently.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> Hell, even a grounding on the Ditch can sometimes be ruinous... This 42-footer was lost 3 months ago after running aground in the in the tricky section behind Ponce Inlet... In their effort to back off, they grounded again hard in reverse, and tore the rudder and skeg right out of the boat...


Jon, gawd that's a mess! is there more the story after it was (or if) saved or salvaged?


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

CaptainForce said:


> I I am interested in the puzzle you've presented with the performance of your engine. How much time in the water was there between the prop replacement and the current loss of performance? Is excessive growth on this new prop a potential cause of your lack of performance? You didn't mention a cure for the "runs away" problem and I'm not sure what "runs away" means. Could the engine be "running away" because it's not under load? ...the the transmission becomming disengaged?... Is the shaft turning at these events? Is the new prop properly fixed to the shaft?


Harborless did write

"So there I am direct under the bridge at 3000 RPM NOT MOVING. sitting still."


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

How did the powerboat capsize and sink?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

northoceanbeach said:


> Dude. It's Florida. What are the waves today, .5 feet with 7 knots of onshore wind?
> 
> You don't get killed running aground in a channel when it's 80 degrees outside. It may suck but he's not rounding the cape.
> 
> ...


Dude,

Quite an uneducated comment.

What do you know about sitting in current and dodging bascule bridges in your relative short time sailing? Or coming out a narrow channel winding behind salt marsh's through a 200 ft. wide inlet guarded by rock jetties swept by a 3 knot current into a 15 knot breeze opposing that current with a 4 ft. swell running on the ocean? Hohw often have you done that to comment on it



> It's Florida. What are the waves today, .5 feet with 7 knots of onshore wind? You don't get killed running aground in a channel when it's 80 degrees outside. It may suck but he's not rounding the cape. It's Florida. You'll be fine*. We've got lakes in this country rougher than Florida


Interested and funny coming from a person who's experience sailing in the Atlantic Ocean is probably nil let alone where he lives is close to nil in the Pacific. Might be better to comment on things you know or have experience about lest someone new here would actually follow your advice.

Any piece of water anywhere has is issues related to its geography. Once you get some experience in the Atlantic you realize the inlets and waterways can be quite challenging and may not appear to be a serene as you make them out to be. The PNW where you live is similar to Maine and New England, you don't have any monopoly on dangerous conditions there. The Bahamas' Bank is shallow water, 80 degrees outside and would make you sick and beat you up in your 23 footer if you crossed it most afternoons with a 15 knot wind opposing current.

Trade winds and winds blowing counter to the eddies of the Gulf Stream or against the tidal currents of the back island bays when ebbing can create 10-12 foot breakers in narrow Atlantic inlets from Maine to Florida while the conditions in the ocean and bay are a benign 3 feet.

Don't make light of the Florida sailors and their conditions unless you have tested them yourself. Even then don't do it. Your comment was completely unnecessary and untrue.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

Bristol:

Overfilled engine oil, ingenious. I'd have never thought of that. My guess is he has no serious engine issues, just something like your explanation or a messed up Governor or slipping throttle etc, nothing complicated.

Harborless: I think you ought to fix this yourself and here is why. It will make you feel so accomplished for doing so that that you will continue your trip. You almost need to make a "flow chart" with "yes" and "no" paths for figuring it out. But, really, this engine is simple compared to any auto engine.

Bristols idea makes sense because your choke REALLY SHOULD shut down the engine (except if its burning oil from too high oil). It did on my Yanmar 1GM and on my 2GM and on my friends 1HM Yanmar. The manual says it will and even calls it "engine stop"

Do you have a working tach? When it runs away, how high does it go?
What type of engine control panel do you have? Is it a Morse type with throttle lever and shift button below? If yer choke doesnt shut her down, somethings wrong.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

deniseO30 said:


> Jon, gawd that's a mess! is there more the story after it was (or if) saved or salvaged?


They managed to refloat her and tow her to a yard to be hauled, but sounds like the insurance company declared her a total loss... They'd only purchased the boat last August in NC, and had spent several months doing a refit in Green Cove Springs...

Here's a link to their blog...

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/primrose/?xjMsgID=261261












Harborless said:


> How did the powerboat capsize and sink?


That happened a couple of years ago in Jupiter Inlet... Returning in a quartering sea, and broached on one that was probably starting to crest... The boat righted itself and never sank, but wound up on the beach, if memory serves...


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I sailed in Hawaii for two years. That counts as the Pacific. 

I'm not saying Florida doesn't have challenges. I considered sailing there this summer instead of here. But the 4 foot waves breaking into three knot current is really not what you face every time you leave the channel and even if you did it still doesn't seem that this fellow shouldn't go sailing. It's probably like the bridges and passes here. I'm sitting under one now typing(deception pass). 

I'm just saying the poster has faxed some ough going but I'm trying to encourage him because I think he knows enough to sail in what I consider the best beginner sailing in this country. No reason to discourage him when he's already feeling overwhelmed and having near panic attacks. He doesn't need to hear how dangerous and scary it is he needs to know how he probably reacted smartly to a scary but maybe bad luck in some ways situation. Don't want him to think its all going to be like this because he probably has the next three months of perfect sailing and nothing going wrong.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

BTW, check out the several youtube vids on ysm8 engines. I gotta admit, the YSM is a weird looking beast


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

JonEisberg said:


> That happened a couple of years ago in Jupiter Inlet... Returning in a quartering sea, and broached on one that was probably starting to crest... The boat righted itself and never sank, but wound up on the beach, if memory serves...


I thought that was at Sebastian Inlet?


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

The condition of the ICW channels, and it's charts makes me seriously question using it for anything other than bypassing Cape Hatteras.



JonEisberg said:


> They managed to refloat her and tow her to a yard to be hauled, but sounds like the insurance company declared her a total loss... They'd only purchased the boat last August in NC, and had spent several months doing a refit in Green Cove Springs...
> 
> Here's a link to their blog...
> 
> ...


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## katsailor (Jan 6, 2013)

northoceanbeach said:


> Dude. It's Florida. What are the waves today, .5 feet with 7 knots of onshore wind?
> 
> You don't get killed running aground in a channel when it's 80 degrees outside. It may suck but he's not rounding the cape.
> 
> ...


uh yeah right,
thanks for your input, now I'm sure


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Shinook said:


> I thought that was at Sebastian Inlet?


No, it was Jupiter... Although the boat did not wind up on the beach as I had originally thought, the mate finally made it up to the bridge and regained control after it had run in circles for awhile...

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...6_1_charter-boat-jupiter-inlet-freak-accident


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

BubbleheadMd said:


> The condition of the ICW channels, and it's charts makes me seriously question using it for anything other than bypassing Cape Hatteras.


Nah, it's not that bad... Most folks who get into trouble on the Ditch simply aren't paying close enough attention... And often, in the case of a grounding, demonstrating a reckless impatience to get off immediately... Sometimes simply taking your medicine, and waiting for a rising tide, is most prudent course of action. Always amazes me how many people will call SeaTow on a quickly falling tide, when it's obvious that by the time help arrives, the boat will be so hard aground that the risk of damage, or injury in an effort to get off is very real...

Looks like these folks may have been done in by the piss-poor design of that Moody's underbody, that rudder looks to be even with, or within a couple of inches of being the same draft as the keel... Being West Coast sailors from SF Bay, perhaps they lacked an appreciation for the risk of such a configuration in the shoal waters of the East coast and Bahamas...


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

I have a swing keel that when up draws less than 3'. If I stay inside the markers I think I can motor without running aground.
If I do its sand and mud. I have patience for tide changes and if need be a gold membership to Towboat US.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

Sal Paradise said:


> Harborless did write
> 
> "So there I am direct under the bridge at 3000 RPM NOT MOVING. sitting still."


Yes, and this is why I was assuming that either his prop is fully fouled or it is not spinning; therefore, the questions,- Is the transmission disengaging? Is the shaft spinning? Is the prop fouled? Is the prop still there?

Nobody has a lack of momentum if a good prop is spinning with the engine at 3000rpm in a 26' boat with a new bottom paint when the current maximum is ca 2.0kts. I had hope that Harborless would tell us more of these answers to best allow some of us to give him some help.

By the way, the Moody that developed the hole and sunk after grounding near Ponce Inlet had completed a recent repair at the location of that hull failure.


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

There is a thing called sod's law, or Murphy's law. Namely if something can go wrong it will. With experience, good preparation and prudent seamanship it may happen less and is usually easily overcome and minor. However if there is a shortfall the sea will find you out sometimes in benign conditions but more likely not.
I think there is a difference between dinghy sailing and a bigger boat. Also between being a crew and the one responsible, indeed the only one available. A range of skills have to be learned.
Okay you have done a fair amount of work. Sadly that is inevitable on an older cheap boat. It can seem never-ending particularly when you have to learn new skills and are short on money. That's boats for you, particularly old cheap boats. They are expensive and time consuming.
If the motor had been reliable and it seems you knew it was not or did not know it was, you would have run into less trouble but some as I recall.
Other people's boats can be expensive to fix, especially when a thousand is a lot. Most marinas require insurance. Can you not get third party insurance which is cheaper and doesn't cover your boat, just others. A sudden unexpected gust when docking or refueling shorthanded can do it.
Some anxiety is common, and most people experience some more stressful moments earlier on in their sailing careers. So I wouldn't panic about that rather continue to focus on building competence not just confidence.
By the way you may well find it takes more than 2 days to cover 80 miles. It isn't a straight line and steering for more than 8 hours is a pain. Trying to meet a deadline is a common source of problems.
Good luck.


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## lsusailing (Sep 9, 2006)

Harborless
Kudos for posting your story. First of all this is why we have a forum (I do not post a lot but I read every single post, great wealth of knowledge).
You did a good job articulating what you did wrong, and what you did right. At the end of the day, you won. 
We all have done silly stuff, trust me, that is part of learning. There is a thread somewhere of silly stuff we have all done and it is worthwhile reading.
Harborless was honest in his posting and is asking for help. He received great advice which he can take or not take but it has helped him with his plan.
I am anxious to see what the diesel doctor says. It has to be an issue with transmission slippage or the prop. Even a bunch of scum should not slow it up that much but of course it could.
You learnt a lot on this trip so good show.
Keep us up to date, this is very interesting as we all have been in positions like this. Rest, hydrate, think, relax and tackle it. Just another day in paradise.
This is why we come back for more, it aint perfect and things will go bump in the night.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Harborless said:


> I have a swing keel that when up draws less than 3'. If I stay inside the markers I think I can motor without running aground.
> If I do its sand and mud. I have patience for tide changes and if need be a gold membership to Towboat US.


 I have a swing keel and sail on very shallow and unpredictably shifty Pamlico Sound. I always keep the keel down at least 6 inches so that when I do run aground I can easily get off just by lifting the keel. I don't have any other depth gauge. Lowered keel is a good early warning system. Never needed anybody to get me off a sand bar in that little boat.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

CaptainForce said:


> Yes, and this is why I was assuming that either his prop is fully fouled or it is not spinning; therefore, the questions,- Is the transmission disengaging? Is the shaft spinning? Is the prop fouled? Is the prop still there?
> 
> Nobody has a lack of momentum if a good prop is spinning with the engine at 3000rpm in a 26' boat with a new bottom paint when the current maximum is ca 2.0kts. I had hope that Harborless would tell us more of these answers to best allow some of us to give him some help.
> 
> By the way, the Moody that developed the hole and sunk after grounding near Ponce Inlet had completed a recent repair at the location of that hull failure.


Well I have tried to describe the best I can what is happening. I mean, I did install the transmission myself but it is such a simple piece of machinary I do not understand how I could have installed it incorrect to allow slippage, but it is a possibility as it was my first ever transmission replacement.
Second, I did fill the oil a bit high, but its still not above the over fill mark on the dip stick.
Third, I wont lie. I did not clean the boats bottom, well not since Febuary. I am totally sure that barnacles ARE on the prop and that IS affecting propulsion. I did not realize the level of loss that barnacles can have on the prop but it sounds like a hell of a lot. lesson learned.
I am not sure what the problem is. White smoke starts, then grey to black. Diesel is seen in the water behind the boat. It runs away both in nuetral and forward, never reverse (thought I dont go in reverse long or often)
I do not put a heavy load on the engine (except when running from the railroad bridge- it ran away in an INSTANT with no warning. Tons of white smoke.

I will be on the boat during the work and will post everything along with some pictures. The prop is less than a year and a half old. Good 150$ prop just needs a cleaning along with the boats bottom.

I also leave my keel down a bit, thought I think I will leave it up while motoring the ICW.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

chris_gee said:


> There is a thing called sod's law, or Murphy's law. Namely if something can go wrong it will. With experience, good preparation and prudent seamanship it may happen less and is usually easily overcome and minor. However if there is a shortfall the sea will find you out sometimes in benign conditions but more likely not.
> I think there is a difference between dinghy sailing and a bigger boat. Also between being a crew and the one responsible, indeed the only one available. A range of skills have to be learned.
> Okay you have done a fair amount of work. Sadly that is inevitable on an older cheap boat. It can seem never-ending particularly when you have to learn new skills and are short on money. That's boats for you, particularly old cheap boats. They are expensive and time consuming.
> If the motor had been reliable and it seems you knew it was not or did not know it was, you would have run into less trouble but some as I recall.
> ...


After the engine is fixed the only thing left that can break is the keel. Im serious. Every single piece of equipment would have been replaced including the centerboard. I mean everything, not blowing smoke, EVERYTHING. 
So with the diesel fixed I will be able to maintain an accurate maintenance law to keep Murphy at a distance, atleast for a season or two.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Frogwatch said:


> BTW, check out the several youtube vids on ysm8 engines. I gotta admit, the YSM is a weird looking beast


Our 25 year old brought us from northern California to Florida. It's since been replaced for a physically smaller 10 horse but was still running fine when it was sold.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

I think you got the transmission right. The running away in neutral and not being able to shut her down with the choke almost clinches the too much oil thing as being right.
She starts and runs right but as the oil gets frothy she goes crazy and the smoke color changes to black indicating extreme rich mixture.
I've always been casual about too much oil and this has taught me a lot.


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

I know the area a little and the boat. One of my racing crew had a PY 26 and a GM10. The Yanmar 1 lung is a pretty simple engine and sufficient for the boat. You should be able to motor the boat, if it is operating efficiently, at 5.5 knots all day long. Your engine cruising RPM should be 25-2700 rpm.

Over filled oil reservoir is a distinct possibility. Did you use the proper oil or fluid for the Kanzaki transmission. Is the boat propped correctly? Electric fuel pump on this engine? If the tranny was older,the transmission might slip if the gears have a glazed surface. Probably not the issue.

Going down the ICW is a daylight only proposition. Conservatively, you should plan on 35-45 miles a day. 3 days from Jax to NSB is an easy ride.

Get the engine fixed, go for it, and have fun. Tell your relatives to treat you to a seafood lunch at Bostons to celebrate your arrival in New Smyrna Beach.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Remember: The most accurate time to check your diesel is when the engine is fully warmed up, ie after shutdown. Why? Diesel, like everything else, expands when it warms up. If you (like I used to do) fill the dipstick to the top mark when it's cold, then when it warms up, it expands and you've got too much diesel. That's why many dipsticks say "max" at the top. They mean it. 

From what I've been reading, if your diesel is truly running away (which by your smoke definitions it may well be) your problems are almost certainly because there's too much oil in the oil pan.

Now is that too much lubricating oil because you fill it slightly too much?

Is it too much lubricating oil because you have the wrong dipstick (it happens)?

Or, as Bljones suggested, you have blown an internal seal because of the fuel pressure thingy and you have diesel mixed with your oil.



The third one is the easiest to diagnose. Does your oil smell like diesel? No? Good. Now, don't ever run your engine with the pressure pump running again. Bad idea for lots of reasons. 

The first and second reasons can be diagnosed by completely emptying your oil pan and measuring what comes out. Measure what goes back in and be sure you have the right dipstick. 

MedSailor

PS I was really there (where you are) once. I learned by doing it all myself and by jumping into the deep end. Nobody died, and I didn't break anything of anyone else's that I didn't fix. I turned out alright.... I think.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

On a diesel with a low pressure pump which is just like a pump on a gasoline motor it has a diaphragm that can leak and allow fuel to flow directly into the oil pan 

Then you have a high pressure pump putting out MUCHO PSI and its fairly unlikely your pushing anything past it with a primer bulb let alone cracking open and injector


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Harb, activecaptain has notes about shoaling issues and buoy changes on the ICW - for example for the guys who grounded & holed their Moody at Ponce Inlet, there's about 4 shoaling areas noted, with details on which side to drive and a suggestion to call the Tow guys and follow their suggestions. The Moody was right on the draft edge of the shoaling for low-tide, and they should have known that. 

But if you only draw 3' board up you should be fine. Just saying there's nothing like local knowledge, and activecaptain (and getting on your VHF) are good ways to get it.


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## arvicola-amphibius (Apr 14, 2012)

Sailing is a mixture of art, science and luck. Percentages may vary. You control the first two, but Huey is in charge of the last.

The art can only be acquired by practice, practice, practice. An example of art is sailing on to a mooring and coming to a dead stop, into wind with the mooring right where you can pick it up. Or taking advantage of the tide to sail under a bridge, or reading the wind shifts and tacking at the right moment. Art is being able to read the weather in real time.
A lot of the science can be learned from others and books. Science is understanding stuff like corrosion in shackles that allow your centreboard system to fail just when you need it to work. And replacing those shackles on a regular basis whether they look as if they need it or not. Ditto, rigging. Science is poor performance from a fouled hull or prop. Science is using the right antifoul paint for your particular waters to regain the performance your boat is capable of producing. Science is understanding propeller cavitation and how to cure it (possibly the cause of your engine's weird behaviour?). Engine maintenance is mostly science (though getting the beast to start and run right can be an art).
Navigation used to be a mix of both of the above, especially when we relied on celestial, but with GPS these days it is pure science for most of us. We don't need to know HOW it works but we still need to be able to apply it.
Science is being able to read a synoptic chart and deduce the weather that will come soon to a place near you.
As for luck - if Huey decides to zap your mast with a lightning bolt and fry all your new electronic gizmos, too bad, so sad. The same Huey will make up for it next time you are out with sunny skies, fair winds and a favorable tide. Don't give up because you had a bad hair day; hit a bridge, ran aground and dragged anchor. We all have had bad days; we learn, we get better at the art and the science, curse at the bad luck and give thanks to whatever we believe in for the good luck.


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## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

While I agree with MedSailor's comment about too much oil in the pan may be the cause of the run away, I want to comment about my experience with the Perkins 4-108. I bought the boat new back in 1985 and the Perkins mechanic told me at the time to over fill the oil beyound the max reading mark on the dipstick. He showed me how much to overfill it by and explained that the max given was based on a level installation and since the boat installation had the engine at a tilt it was necassary to overfill that pan. For the past 25 plus years I've always overfilled that pan and come to think about it, I've motored into some pretty bad waves causing some pretty violent movement yet no run away which is pretty scary watching that youtube video of the runway.

One other comment is that apparently the best way to stop a runaway is by plugging up the air intake, however once that condition is apparent who would want to even get close to that engine fearing metal flying off. Or is the damage done internally and no risk of engine exploding outward? One other comment....It would seem that the air intake is limited by the diameter of the intake, etc. so should'nt the engine be designed to limit the runaway condition in the first place no matter how much fuel(oil) is there?


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## Roger Long (May 28, 2012)

lancelot9898 said:


> He showed me how much to overfill it by and explained that the max given was based on a level installation and since the boat installation had the engine at a tilt it was necassary to overfill that pan.


Don't take this as gospel. It depends on which end of the crankcase the dipstick is at.

On commercial installations, part of the sea trial procedure is to carefully measure everything and file marks in the dipsticks which come blank.

The critical thing is to avoid having the crank contact the surface of the oil. My engine is installed well over the Yanmar tilt specs and I have had some interesting adventures with oil foaming.

My experience with Yanmars makes me doubt that the runaway in this case is the result of too much oil. I would put my money on worn rings assuming we are getting an accurate report that the engine does not respond to closing the throttle.

A critical thing we don't know is if the breather hose leads directly into the intake. My 2QM20 has a nipple for the breather hose to connect to the low pressure point on the intake and it turns out that it needs that negative pressure on the crankcase to keep from blowing oil out the dipstick. I've blown a lot of oil through that hose without a runaway. I now have a liquid trap in the line, just in case.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

Harborless said:


> ............. I am totally sure that barnacles ARE on the prop and that IS affecting propulsion............ I am not sure what the problem is. White smoke starts, then grey to black. ..............


A fouled prop can definitely result in black smoke from the exhaust.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

All mtors have and oil capacity based on angle of installation 

Even my 43 year old A4 which is mounted at 15 degrees (the Max Angle) has a rating of 3 quarts at that angle 

If the motor was level it could be as high as 6 quarts which would turn into a foam bath on a 15 degree install


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Keep in mind that the engine in question is a horizontal cylinder engine- bad rings on a horizontal engine combined with choppy water and heavy throttle usage offers the potential for a runaway engine, overfilled crankcase or not.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

bljones said:


> Keep in mind that the engine in question is a horizontal cylinder engine- bad rings on a horizontal engine combined with choppy water and heavy throttle usage offers the potential for a runaway engine, overfilled crankcase or not.


I will refrain from posting names but the regional director of a certain company has had a technician contact me. However, with this being memorial day weekend, work will not commence until next week. I will be on the boat during work and will make sure to snap a few pics and ask some smarty pants questions for those interested.
If the engine is unable to be fixed, a new one will be put it. The problem will be fixed once and for all.
I will report when a report is compiled.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

if the engine is replaced, my boat is a new boat. Except the keel. I swear if THAT thing falls off im calling it quits, seriously. That is if I survive.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Then I hope you've inspected the keel bolts. They aren't a lifetime warranty. 

Based on the description of your finances, how does having the money to put in a brand new motor fit in?


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Then I hope you've inspected the keel bolts. They aren't a lifetime warranty.
> 
> Based on the description of your finances, how does having the money to put in a brand new motor fit in?


Through the blessing of family high up in the boating industry who have seen the work I have done and realize my financial constraints but wish my efforts to succeed. Ive put over 10K of personal money (student-serving tables) and over 300 hours of personal work. I started with a hammer and screw driver- Now I have a tool bag weighing over 75 pounds.

Ive inspected the TOPS of the keel bolts- how do you inspect anything further down without removing them? And I am not doing that.

10K after the cost of the boat. Im talking just refits.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Harborless said:


> if the engine is replaced, my boat is a new boat. Except the keel. I swear if THAT thing falls off im calling it quits, seriously. That is if I survive.


Never make any important decisions early in the morning or late at night.
Try to have some fun and develop more balance. Yin and yang are always there, we just need to learn how to balance them better.
It is not that bad.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Photo and image hosting, free photo galleries, photo editing

I am terrible at updating- this covers maybe 1/3 or even a 1/4 of whats been done. However, the pictures from where I bought the boat to the last pictures taken should give a pretty good idea the changes that have taken place. I cannot afford to hire someone to do the work- so it was all done by me except for what required a haul-out and rigger. (Seacocks all me- I didnt cutoff the mast or re-sheath it though- that was outsourced)


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

krisscross said:


> Never make any important decisions early in the morning or late at night.
> Try to have some fun and develop more balance. Yin and yang are always there, we just need to learn how to balance them better.
> It is not that bad.


No, im sorry, if the keel goes and my boat rolls over on its self I am done son. End of discussion.

However, this seems to be extremely rare. I have not heard of any AMF PaceShips losing there keel so I THINK im good to go.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I think if the keel falls off its time to call it a day. I would. You did your best. It won't though. Diesel malfunctioning common. Keel falling off isn't.


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

We were recently quoted $13k to have a new Betamarine 14 put in our boat, $8k for the motor and $5k in labor if it was a simple job. We won't do it because I'm not sure I can justify the expense on such an old boat, maybe you can. 

I have an alert on Craigslist for 2GM20s and YSM8s set up. I often see used 2GM20s for sale around $2k-$3k, YSM8s usually go for $1200 or so depending on condition. I've called a few mechanics and found recently rebuilt motors in the same range. 

You might also consider just sticking with an outboard...


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Shinook said:


> We were recently quoted $13k to have a new Betamarine 14 put in our boat, $8k for the motor and $5k in labor if it was a simple job. We won't do it because I'm not sure I can justify the expense on such an old boat, maybe you can.
> 
> I have an alert on Craigslist for 2GM20s and YSM8s set up. I often see used 2GM20s for sale around $2k-$3k, YSM8s usually go for $1200 or so depending on condition. I've called a few mechanics and found recently rebuilt motors in the same range.
> 
> You might also consider just sticking with an outboard...


I would never allow my family member to pony up such a bill for a boat as old and worthless as mine. When say NEW engine, I dont mean 2013. I mean New USED. Old GSM or even maybe go to a YSM12 or something. I am sorry I gave the impression I would be willing to allow such a thing to occur I assure you my shame would prevent such a thing from ever taking place.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Harborless said:


> No, im sorry, if the keel goes and my boat rolls over on its self I am done son. End of discussion.
> 
> However, this seems to be extremely rare. I have not heard of any AMF PaceShips losing there keel so I THINK im good to go.


 Have you checked your keel bolts lately? It is an iron keel so checking the bolts at least once a year makes good sense. And keep your zincs in good shape too.


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

Harborless said:


> I would never allow my family member to pony up such a bill for a boat as old and worthless as mine. When say NEW engine, I dont mean 2013. I mean New USED. Old GSM or even maybe go to a YSM12 or something. I am sorry I gave the impression I would be willing to allow such a thing to occur I assure you my shame would prevent such a thing from ever taking place.


Ah ok, I was a little confused 

Call around, I found a YSM8 rebuilt for $1500 a few months ago and a 2GM20 for $4k rebuilt. If I had the guy's number, I'd give it to you, but I've since lost it. There are a lot of used motors floating around in decent shape.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Harborless said:


> ......Ive inspected the TOPS of the keel bolts- how do you inspect anything further down without removing them? And I am not doing that.....


You could take a nut or two off, maybe a plate and see if there is any crevice corrosion. If you see any sign of it there, you can sure there is some further down. Unfortunately, if you don't, there is no guarantee, but at least a good sign.

Your declarative statement of what you are and are not doing is not necessary. In fact, you may limit good advice. Whether you do it or not is always your decision, so why limit the learning?


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> You could take a nut or two off, maybe a plate and see if there is any crevice corrosion. If you see any sign of it there, you can sure there is some further down. Unfortunately, if you don't, there is no guarantee, but at least a good sign.
> 
> Your declarative statement of what you are and are not doing is not necessary. In fact, you may limit good advice. Whether you do it or not is always your decision, so why limit the learning?


Well, I guess if I did inspect the Keel Bolts and saw corrosion I would be so depressed as to pretty much list the boat for sail since in the bottom of my mind I would never be able to have peace way from dock again. I guess right now, with everything else thas happened and going on, Im just not ready to deal with that possible can of worms.
Does not mean I dont value your advice or retain it. Many times my comments are meant to be tounge-in-cheek as well. I hope no person here would refrain from giving me their opinion because they thought I did not care to hear it.
EXCEPT ABOUT BOAT LIABILITY INSURANCE


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Harborless said:


> Photo and image hosting, free photo galleries, photo editing
> 
> I am terrible at updating- this covers maybe 1/3 or even a 1/4 of whats been done.


The link does not work.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

bljones said:


> The link does not work.


it works for me... 
Photo and image hosting, free photo galleries, photo editing

http://http://s1208.photobucket.com/?postlogin=true

I am sorry if neither works. If you are still interested enough you can just go to photobucket.com and search trisstanseth or [email protected]


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Harborless said:


> Well, I guess if I did inspect the Keel Bolts and saw corrosion I would be so depressed as to pretty much list the boat for sail since in the bottom of my mind I would never be able to have peace way from dock again. I guess right now, with everything else thas happened and going on, Im just not ready to deal with that possible can of worms...


So you would rather risk your life sailing with an unknown deficiency than with a known one.



Harborless said:


> ...I hope no person here would refrain from giving me their opinion because they thought I did not care to hear it.
> EXCEPT ABOUT BOAT LIABILITY INSURANCE


So you would rather risk other people's property to damage due to your own boat's unknown deficiencies than protect yourself against a liability that you can't afford to pay out of pocket.

Look, owning your own keelboat is a lot different from being a passenger on your daddy's Hobie 16. You have an awful lot to learn. And if you don't learn those things, you bear responsibility for your mistakes. "I didn't know any better" is not a valid excuse when you damage someone's property or injure somebody.

Your failure to realize the possibility of keelbolt corrosion, or the possible deficiencies of your motor, is just the tip of the iceberg. There's a whole lot more that you (and I) don't have a clue about. That's why insurance companies require surveys, and don't trust the self-assessments of dreamy-eyed novice sailors.

Getting an insurance survey and buying some insurance may save your life. At the very least, it may save your future livelihood from a future of garnished wages.

You're sounding like an obstinate child with all your "I won't do that," and "Your advice is wecome EXCEPT ABOUT BOAT LIABILITY INSURANCE."

I hope we don't end up reading about you in the newspaper someday.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Your link goes to a general photobucket page which requires a logon

It is NOT a direct link to YOUR photos

Seafever Photos by tommays | Photobucket

like this


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> So you would rather risk your life sailing with an unknown deficiency than with a known one.
> 
> So you would rather risk other people's property to damage due to your own boat's unknown deficiencies than protect yourself against a liability that you can't afford to pay out of pocket.
> 
> ...


I would ask you to consider it from a different perspective- So I will use this analogy.

A single mother of 48 with a family history of breast cancer (like they have the gene) has three kids and works a full-time job to support their household. (so a good portion of American moms would fit the bill here-minus this gene)
The mother knows her grandmother and mother and aunt all died from breast cancer at 45 or 50 or 48 or 55 w.e.
Well the mom thinks to her self- if go to the doctor and get tested and he finds something- what would i do? I dont have savings, I cant stop working, my kids have to keep eating- so why would I WANT to know? What would that knowledge to to benefit me since know I have not the means to do anything about it? 
I know your response- she would be able to get treatment and her kids may have a mother- yet that in its self is a huge presumption.
Your assuming she can afford help, has the money or means. You assume treatment would work and not just rack her and her family with enormous medical bills and still no mom. You assume her ability to keep working and providing for her children would be maintained- kids not getting new clothes, drop in quality of diet- social degregation (poor kids get bullied- terrible but true)
You assume the mother would be able to keep her self maintained with such enormous mental load. 
before you yell at my callousness for drawing such a comparison I drew it from reality- That story is true and was on a TV show I watched recently. I just paraphrased what SHE said and how SHE felt so dont murder my good intentions.
Sometimes people feel like they are better off not knowing, and sometimes they may be right.

no no no I never want to risk anyones life safety or property. I have simply heard the spectrum of opinions and do not feel any further discussion on the matter to be "new," hence, I am not in need of advice regarding that particular topic.

I do have a clue about my boat. I am familiar with every bolt nut and screw since chances are I put it there. I installed all the systems. So besides the Keel and engine, I have it covered. Engine soon to be solved. Keel- Well I inspected the bolts before and the washers looked new. Its all on photobucket documented before and after. So seems I even checked that out.
Presumptions dont make you any more intelligent.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Nice attempt at moral relativism.

So are you equating your desire to have a boat with a woman's biological drive to have a child? I know a lot of women who would be very offended by that.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> Nice attempt at moral relativism.
> 
> So are you equating your desire to have a boat with a woman's biological drive to have a child? I know a lot of women who would be very offended by that.


No. its not a good comparison at all in that regard- I only wish to convey that some situations are not made better by knowing. Thats all. Life is leaps and bounds more valuable than my or any persons boat, Maltese Falcon included.


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## MobiusALilBitTwisted (Jun 25, 2007)

photo link need fixing


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I've thought that same way myself. You can't fix everything. Would I really want to know every last thing that's wrong with my boat? Maybe if I did I wouldn't be out enjoying it. 

Is it the law you have to have liability to sail? Not where I'm from. It's not a car. My top speed is 6 something. Or right now I'm fighting a current going 3. By you logic you would have to have instance and a survey to ride your bike. 

It's a good analogy. I don't think there are too many barren women reading this. Maybe they would understand anyways.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

MobiusALilBitTwisted said:


> photo link need fixing


My ineptitude prevents such a thing from happening - Ive tried four different ways I am sorry Id love you to see my pictures.
my handle is trisstanseth email is [email protected] and name is tristan nettles. Hopefully one of those will allow you to find my pics and then perhaps school me on how to properly post the link.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

northoceanbeach said:


> ....By you logic you would have to have instance and a survey to ride your bike......


Your bike is pretty unlikely to create an environmental liability for putting fuel oil into the water or lying a hull in a navigable waterway and incur up to thousands of dollars per day in fines, in some locales.

A bike is also not going to have an electrical fire (which is the cause of the vast majority of boat fires and most often due to improper owner wiring) that burns a half dozen boats around you with it.

I could go on with your boat breaking free or dragging into an expensive yacht, or losing control and sailing her into one, etc, etc.

Liability is real in the US. Maybe too real, but real, nevertheless.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

harborless- we can't link your photos for you.
Here's what you need to do:
1. Log into your photobucket account.
2. pull up the album with the photos of your boat.
2 a). If album is protected, you may have to change settings to public.
3. Copy the URL from the address bar.
4. pate that URL in a post here.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

*Insurance Ranters*

Harborless - you have to give us the name of the photobucket account.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Not tongue in cheek - 

I'm getting tired of the insurance lectures ad nauseum. Admiralty law limits liability to the value of your boat. Look it up. It applies to a 26 foot sailboat too.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

northoceanbeach said:


> ...Is it the law you have to have liability to sail? Not where I'm from. It's not a car. My top speed is 6 something. Or right now I'm fighting a current going 3. By you logic you would have to have instance and a survey to ride your bike...


Ridiculous hyperbole.

I never said that insurance is required by law. It is required by most marinas, and if you are lying to your marina then you might be civilly guilty of breach of contract and perhaps criminally for theft of services (though that's a stretch). A boat doing 6 knots can do a lot of damage - especially if it is on fire or leaking fuel. Regardless of whether it's required by law or contract (with marina, lender, etc.), you will be on the hook for damages that your boat causes, and could suffer years of financial pain without insurance.

My point is about morality, responsibility, and good boating practices, not the law.

I find it interesting to see you and Harborless spouting off your naive wisdom about how easy it is to navigate east coast cuts, and how you've checked over every square inch of your boat (oops - except for your runaway motor and old uninspected keel bolts and old swing keel cable/shackle and barnacle-clad bottom and propellor and old wiring and who knows what else....). I hope nobody else here is fooled into modeling your behavior.

So let me ask - if you're both uninsured, have you ever LIED to a marina about having insurance? That's what this is about - not legalities, but simple ethics and responsibility. If a marina tells you you need insurance, do move out of the marina, or say, "Oops, I forgot to bring the papers this time. I'll drop by with them next week?"


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> Not tongue in cheek -
> 
> I'm getting tired of the insurance lectures ad nauseum. Admiralty law limits liability to the value of your boat. Look it up. It applies to a 26 foot sailboat too.


If you're getting tired of repetition after only 6 months around here, you're in for a tough time. 

Can you post a reference to what you believe limits ones liability to the value of their boat? The only reference I find is when the vessel is out of the control of its owner.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> Nice attempt at moral relativism.
> 
> So are you equating your desire to have a boat with a woman's biological drive to have a child? I know a lot of women who would be very offended by that.


Rick,

Leave the guy alone. He craves drama and attention ( look at the title of the thread) . Look t the dramatic references in the first post. my god i hought he eas going to die. Once you give him that attention he minimizes his experience. he listens to what he listens to as long as he agrees with you.

Rck , ever run into a bridge? Rick, ever not chart the tides and currents where you go on your river let alone an 80 miles trip out the inlet into the ocean. Rick ever even make a small trip with a suspect motor. These are the simplest of safety measures. Unwilling to get even the smallest amount of insurance shows his regards for others.

Clearly he has positive drive for adventure. That's o be commended. Coupled with his knowledge there will be a long learning experience here I predict. Some people listen to others so as not to repeat thir mistakes. Some must make the mistake hemselves to learn. It's all in the way we learn. Hopefully he has fun and doesn't hurt anyone else in the process.

Eventually he will do fine. It's obvious he doesn't want our advice as we are to cautious.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

bljones said:


> harborless- we can't link your photos for you.
> Here's what you need to do:
> 1. Log into your photobucket account.
> 2. pull up the album with the photos of your boat.
> ...


I think I got it. Went into photobucket settings and now there is a shareyourprofile url on my page. This is that link:
trisstanseth on Photobucket | Photobucket

http://http://s1208.photobucket.com/user/trisstanseth/profile/


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I can see why your having problems sailing based on the pictures of how the sails are hoisted



Your looking for a much more flat shape with sail more like the skin on and airplane wing

As there shown in the pictures with the mainsail being so lose every which way it would never take the boat upwind


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

I have kept on the sidelines on this. The photos show all I need to know. This will not end well.
Jim


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> If you're getting tired of repetition after only 6 months around here, you're in for a tough time.
> 
> Can you post a reference to what you believe limits ones liability to the value of their boat? The only reference I find is when the vessel is out of the control of its owner.


Haha! Yeah I can see that. 

ok, the following not tongue in cheek

http://books.google.com/books?id=plh6HRaukKAC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

page 359 General Liability

The liability for the owner of the vessel shall not exceed the value of the vessel and the cargo. This excludes personal injury and death.






Limitation of shipowner's liability

_One of the unique aspects of maritime law is the ability of a shipowner to limit its liability to the value of a ship after a major accident. An example of the use of the Limitation Act is the sinking of the RMS Titanic in 1912. Even though the Titanic had never been to the United States, upon her sinking the owners rushed into the federal courts in New York to file a limitation of liability proceeding. The Limitation Act provides that if an accident happens due to a circumstance which is beyond the "privity and knowledge" of the ship's owners, the owners can limit their liability to the value of the ship after it sinks.

The Limitation Act doesn't just apply to large ships. It can be used to insulate a motorboat owner from liability when he loans his boat to another who then has an accident. Even jet ski owners have been able to successfully utilize the Limitation Act to insulate themselves from liability_.

http://www.lipcon.com/areas_of_practice_limitation_of_liability.php

sorry Harborless.........didn't mean to hijack your thread..


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

While that may apply you will still need to hire an attorney. Wanna guess what that will cost. Hope you have duck tape. Your gonna need it.
Jim


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

tommays said:


> I can see why your having problems sailing based on the pictures of how the sails are hoisted
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was sailing with a mainsail split completely at the first reef. That was a worn weather main that just let me cruise around on days the wind was gusty.

I have brand new North Sail made sails jib and main. The pictures are a progression- I really hope you all realize this. Look at the dates.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

jimrafford said:


> I have kept on the sidelines on this. The photos show all I need to know. This will not end well.
> Jim


Wow. Im not sure how to respond here except to ask- did you go through the progressions? There are only 2-3 pictures of the boat as it is now with bimini and new sails and all that jazz. The majority of pictures are old and show work being done (i.e. refitting)
Im very mystified by your response.

I just looked- I havent even put a picture of the inside with all the cushions in place. The rig is set up perfectly- I will update pics next week you all will see.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> I find it interesting to see you and Harborless spouting off your naive wisdom about how easy it is to navigate east coast cuts, and how you've checked over every square inch of your boat (oops - except for your runaway motor and old uninspected keel bolts and old swing keel cable/shackle and barnacle-clad bottom and propellor and old wiring and who knows what else...."


Don't include me on this. My boats in tip top shape. I post maintenance, preventative measures, how to questions on here so hopefully I can preemp problems as well as posting opinions on lifestyłe threads.

You gave me a good laugh though. Youre actually worried about flaming sailboats hitting you.

That happened to me just yesterday. I was coming out of Sebastian inlet at max flood and I had just gotten gas. Well I store my gas can on top of my sails so it doesn't roll around. I hate the noise, besides I don't put up the sails much I usually motor. So I spilled gas all over everything but I thought I'd put the jib up this once and it would air dry but I forgot I was smokin a doobie and I flicked it into the north sails logo cuz it looks like a bulls eye.

It was at that moment I hoped I didn't hit anyone but it was getting dark at least I didn't have to worry my broken running lights.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

My post is to point you in the right direction with sail trim as I can only assume from your problems sailing on the first trip you can use some help in how to set them up and trim them so they work well


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Harb.. Seth? You have a lovely boat! Swing keel boats cool I had a hunter 23 before I had my Oday 30 I don't think you need to be replacing your engine but you do need to do some swimming and see what's going on down there. At least it's warm in FLA. Good luck!


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

northoceanbeach said:


> Don't include me on this. My boats in tip top shape. I post maintenance, preventative measures, how to questions on here so hopefully I can preemp problems as well as posting opinions on lifestyłe threads.
> 
> You gave me a good laugh though. Youre actually worried about flaming sailboats hitting you.
> 
> ...


Okay, I laughed.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

_wonders why water world the movie didn't have killer sailboats..._


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

"smokers..."


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> ........
> 
> Admiralty And Maritime Law - Robert Force, A. N. Yiannopoulos, Martin Davies - Google Books
> 
> ...


I'm familiar. Read it carefully. You noted that pleasure craft are explicitly excluded from the personal injury or death paragraph. However, this entire section applies to vessels that are not in control by their owner.

When you are driving your own boat, you are on the hook.


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

That legal stuff looks like a morass but the S183f appears to preclude pleasure boats amongst others from the limitation of liability as I think is also in a previous section. Is this wrong?


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

I assume people remember my last drama-queen thread when I LAST had my bottom cleaned and the guy found my centerboard was broken in two pieces from me leaving it down and it going in the mud despite being towards the end of B-dock at OYCM marina. I assume also since having an entire new centerboard, attachment cables and pins built from scratch at Sadler Point Marina for 1K just a couple months ago that I did not have to check it for structural integrity. 
I will chalk up to naivety or perhaps worse, your being a liar, that people here regularly check their keel bolts. Forgive my unawares on this matter. I have not messed with the keel bolts since I removed the nut and washers from all of them, scraped and sanded there base to remove all old caulk and show shining washers, and completely cover in a bath of 5200. That last part, perhaps dumb on me, does not let me just reach down and take a look anytime but it also gives me pretty good sense that nothing is getting through to them either.
Ill eat it on the bottom and propeller and engine. I have no real defense except ignorance which is really no defense at all. I should have got the bottom scraped before leaving OYCM end of story. I should have figured out what was wrong with the diesel before I left OYCM end of story.
I stand by the entire rest of my boat from tiller to mast light as being as seaworthy as yours m8, id bet money on it and for me that’s hard to come by.

Obviously mistakes were made on my part so criticism is warranted. Yet I am here not for embarrassment, but for enlightenment. I only wish to try and defend my logic from some of you who really do presume more than is accurate. Its hard to let inaccuracies be thrown about.
Its also hard to admit mistakes. I too laughed.

it just occurred you may be referring to my comment about breaking the centerboard block/shackle. The post metal piling that fits over the tube coming inside the main cabin of the boat that leads down to the centerboard broke off from the outside metal tube bc the outside metal tube has the same kind of corrosion my old mast bottom had. The shackle is fine. It only broke from my pulling with all my might with extreme forces of torque acting on the metal tube/shackle attachment point(think 90 degree angles) during a stick in the mud I was too impatient to wait out the tide on.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

still, you have a nice boat


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I like your resilience. If you are lucky to gain enough experience before dumping out of your dream, it will be a strong quality.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I like your resilience. If you are lucky to gain enough experience before dumping out of your dream, it will be a strong quality.


I was rushing it, that much is clear. After a two year rebuild and school out for summer I was itchy and tried to jump. This experience has shown me to avoid catastrophe or failure I have to remember to stay patient, do the work, and make sure the ducks are lined.
After next week the only thing I will lack is insurance and seamanship. This will be my first "trip." Sure, ive sailed up and down the st johns BEHIND the I95 to Hooters and Whiteys and Green Cove and what not. Sure ive sailed dinghy's around the Abaco sea. This will be my first cruise however.
So I have my charts, I have my anchorages marked with the winds they are protected from, I have my tide tables and GPS way points programmed. I have my gold membership to towboat us and very soon Ill have a reliable diesel I can keep accurate logs on.
I feel like the second time will be the charm.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Excellent, now go get a personal liability umbrella policy that will cover you when you are on the water. No need to have the boat involved.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Now see there, I just got SCHOOLED. I had NO idea such a thing existed. Muahahaha perhaps I may have to wait on a circumnavigation but not a circumvent! Ill check Geico tmmrw.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Geico are criminals. Find a local agent.

The catch may be that umbrella policies want you to have primary coverage for the activity, but shop it. If they don't exclude marine activity, you might be set, without needing a marine policy. That's why you need a good agent.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

You're not really going to get insurance are you?


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

I was able to get full coverage insurance for my boat, coastal out to 75 miles, for less than $400 per year...no survey... (My local agent). My boat isn't any smaller than yours (26').


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

This insurance issue is really getting tiresome! Of all the advice and help Harbor could use the constant ragging on one issue is getting old! He's learning his lessons the hard way..THE WAY men and boys learn.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

I too think the length of this thread has grown past its use. I thank you all for your support as well as your criticisms. I will post a new thread detailing my engine report and solution next week. Lets put this one to bed.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

OK, but I learned about diesels "Running away" from your post and I hope you'll get back to me about caves on Man o War.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I don't find anything sailing related, insurance included, to be tiresome. Repetitious perhaps, but I'm not going to give a second thought to how to stop that. Show me anyone who doesn't live in that glass house.


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## mdbee (May 2, 2007)

After browsing through Harbor's other posts...


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

I haven't read any post on this thread except for the OP's post, but I know what some of them are going to say, .. sailing on a schedule is always a really bad idea because it lures you into making bad decisions.

It sounds like you had a tough time of it, but it also sounds relatively normal for a boat that is unproven. Motors crap out, the boat doesn't handle the way you expect it to, etc, but all of that is part of learning the boat. Boats are all like that, they all have stuff wrong with them (even the brand new ones), so you have to take baby steps with them and learn what they can and can't do, and your confidence in them grows over time. When you get a new (to you) boat or make big modifications to a boat you have a shakedown cruise (or many!) to work the kinks out.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think your experiences are that abnormal, but your expectations about how fast all of this might work out could be a little bit high. It's totally normal to have problems like a motor being messed up that you have to go back to the dock to fix 5 times before you finally get it working right, you really just have to allow for it and take it as it comes. After you spend enough time with your boat you start to trust her, but that can take a while, trial and error.


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