# anchor tips to get it to catch?



## davekrista (Mar 3, 2014)

Can anyone help with some anchor tips? We tried to anchor for the first time today in an empty cove to row to a beach. Dave took all but the baby with him in the dinghy. The baby and I stayed on the boat so I could try to get her to nap and do some fishing. Dave thought the anchor was good but it wasn't and we kept drifting to shallower water.

Any tips on how to set this kind of anchor?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

OK, here's the general approach to proper anchoring. I can't tell from your description what you did, but perhaps this will help. 

As you are aware, anchors only hold by digging into the substrate (the bottom). To do this you need an appropriate anchor for the type of bottom, and the size of boat. You also need an anchor rode that allows you to pull as horizontally as you can. AND you need to set the anchor properly.

No anchor works well for all bottoms, although some work in a wider range of bottoms than others. I'm assuming the anchor you used is the danforth hanging from your pulpit. This anchor works best in sand, thicker mud, and clay (but not dense-solid clay). It works poorly in hard or dense bottoms like gravel, rock or hard clay. It is also a poor choice in weedy areas or really soft bottoms.

Assuming you've got the right anchor for the right conditions, you then need a rode to produce that horizontal pull. This is a combination of length and weight. Chain is used to keep the rode horizontally straight. At minimum your rode should include your boat length in chain, and more is generally better. Most cruisers use all-chain rode. In general you want a 5 to 1 ratio of rode length vs depth of anchor, but more is better. So if your anchor is 10' down, you need to lay out at least 50' of rode. Remember, depth of anchor includes the distance from your bow roller or chocks to the bottom. I'm estimating your boat has a 3-4 foot rise at the bow, so this needs to be added to the water depth.

Once you've got all your gear in place, and you've picked an appropriate spot, you need to lower the anchor (not drop it) and drifting downwind (or gently motoring backwards) lay out your rode. Once you've laid out your expected rode you can begin digging in the anchor (setting it) by cleating the rode and putting some force on the anchor. Do this gently at first, and if it slips at all, let out more rode. As you feel the anchor start to hold, gently build the reverse force with the engine. If it slips at all, ease off and lay out more rode. If you can't get it to hold, or if you've run out of swing room, pull in the anchor and try again.

Anchoring is a skill, just like the rest of sailing. It takes time to do it right, and practice to enhance your skills. Hope this helps.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I would suggest you pick up a copy of Royce's Sailing Illustrated. It is a fun, informative little book with a wealth of information on how best to have fun, without a lot of problems, on your boat.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I dont know what to add that mike didnt say. Why dont you tell us how much chain and or rope you let out and how you went about the anchoring process and we can tell you what you did wrong. Also tell us the conditions, how much wind, your location.

Its very possible as well that you did noting wrong, that the anchor just didnt set well and was dragging.

Just make sure you put the boat in reverse and lower it slowly while moving backwards. Maybe at a speed of about .5-1 mph. So lower it until you feel it touch, then reverse while letting out rope. When you have about 3:1 or 5:1 depending on depth, cleat it off and reverse harder. About 1/2 throttle. You should feel the rope rubber band and then you'll notice you're not moving. Once you let off the engine you will probably even drift forward.


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## harmonic (Sep 10, 2013)

everything above is correct I would just add that you should use some chain on your anchor on small boats at least as much chain as the boat is long ie 5m boat 5m chain this will help your anchor bite in as it will pull from a better angle.good luck


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

The chain also has a lot of weight, which keep the angle of pull, caternary angle, lower. It keeps the anchor on the sea bottom better.


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## mr_f (Oct 29, 2011)

northoceanbeach said:


> The chain also has a lot of weight, which keep the angle of pull, caternary angle, lower. It keeps the anchor on the sea bottom better.


Apparently this really isn't true.



> We can therefore conclude that the majority of typical rode set-ups lose most of their benefit provided by catenary well before the anchor is likely to be anywhere near its limits. Beyond this point (once the rode is effectively straightened), the weight of the chain makes no difference to the ability of the anchor to hold the boat.
> 
> In 40-50 knots of wind and a little surge, this 12 mm G40 chain is bar taut, with no catenary visible even looking down the line of the rode.
> 
> The practical upshot to this as it will interest most boaters is that the lore of heavy chain is demonstrably false as it applies to small boats and modern anchors. Chain is still necessary for a number of other reasons, but it need not be unnecessarily heavy. It follows that high strength chains may be utilized to offer the same functionality for less weight - as such, high tensile grades are recommended en lieu of G40 / high-test, and it is suggested that weak low grades such as G30 / BBB are avoided altogether.


http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/catenary.php


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

As a technician I think that Mikes description is beautiful, I can't use words 
that well.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

mr_f said:


> Apparently this really isn't true.


There is endless debate about anchoring... But to be clear, what Smith is questioning is the ultimate holding benefit of chain. What I and others are suggesting is that a length of chain helps SET the anchor properly. Two different things.

I'll say again, the key to anchoring is getting a good set. To set an anchor you want as horizontal a pull as possible. A weighted rode (chain) combined with a long rode are the best ways for most cruisers to achieve this horizontal force.

BTW, Smith is the original maker of the Rocna. I am a big supporter of these new-style anchors. In fact, I switched my bower to a Rocna-25 (25kg, 55#) a few years ago, and absolutely love it. The evidence, and my experience, is that these anchors operate in a wider range of bottoms than the older plow-style anchors. They set and re-set easier, and _may have_ (this is endlessly debated) more ultimate holding strength.

My general recommendation for effective normal anchoring is for to get the largest new-style anchor you and your boat can reasonably manage, along with as much chain as you can manage. By reasonable I mean you want an anchor system that is large, but not too heavy for the boat and crew. It must be one that you can easily deploy and retrieve. If it's too big, this may dissuade you from re-trying (and re-trying, and re-trying). Remember, it's mostly about getting the best set.

BTW, any of the new anchors would likely be as good: Rocna, Manson, Spade, Mantus ... probably a few others I'm forgetting.


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

Excellent post Mike and Mr F's link to the data on anchoring will provide me with hours of amusement as I sit at anchor!

The one point I would add is that we never 'anchor and run'. We set the anchor and then take a break watching out position and then after an hour we put load on the anchor again just to make sure we are really set.

The original poster's bog shows a family with children (all in life jackets) having lots of fun with their boat...I wish them many years of happy sailing.

Phil


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

We'll done, Mike.

I will add an intermediate step I find useful. I first let out 2x the depth of the anchor (properly defined as water depth plus the height of your bow). In the wind, the bow is likely to fall off to one side or the other, as you're letting it out, so I wait for the bow to come back into the wind. This tells me that the anchor chain/rode is essential straight off the bow to the anchor. I may apply a touch of idle reverse just to begin to properly align the anchor. It may have fallen on its side or even be upside down, depending on design. This little maneuver will not set the anchor, just hopefully flip it. Then I let out another 2x, then more idle reverse after she points back into the wind again. Then the final 2x to 3x. This should put out 6 to 7 scope in total. At this point, I apply slowly increasing rpm in reverse. Don't ham fist it, you want it to set in.

If you have SOG on your GPS, it's very useful for determining set. In theory, it should go to zero, even though you are in gear. In practice, it often stops at 1kt or so, as any swing side to side is picked up as SOG. At the least, you should see it drop and stay steady. Take a bearing to shore as well and double check.

The old wives tale that has been dispelled is that rode requires 7-1, while all chain only requires 5-1. In a real blow, as noted above, you still need scope to hold. Chain is still better, prior to enough wind to straighten it out, but if I'm sleeping at anchor, I do not want to think about it. I'm typing at anchor right now and have 8-1 out. Slept like a baby.

Finally, the newest anchor designs, commonly referred to as NextGen anchors, really do seem to set and hold better in the widest conditions. Examples are Rocna, Mantus and Manson Supreme. If you are using that Danforth, they can be tough.

Remember, it's not practice that makes perfect, it's perfect practice that makes perfect. Do it all every time. Good luck.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

MikeOReilly said:


> In general you want a 5 to 1 ratio of rode length vs depth of anchor, but more is better.


Buried in Minnewaska's post is an important point. Scope (5:1, 3:1, 7:1) is measured from the bow roller to the bottom, NOT depth of water.

Otherwise Mike's guidance is good.



mr_f said:


> Apparently this really isn't true.


Correct. In almost all cases the value of chain is chafe resistance and ease of integration with windlass gypsies.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Mike's description of how to set an anchor is excellent. I don't see how I could add anything of significance.

One thing I did note from your posted picture is the anchor is an inexpensive Danforth knockoff. The "loop" shank is supposed to aid in retrieval, but all it does it make it more prone to pulling out if the wind shifts. Probably OK for a short stop in good conditons, but not something I would want for an overnight or in any kind of weather. I would plan on getting a better anchor if you plan on doing any cruising.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> Buried in Minnewaska's post is an important point. Scope (5:1, 3:1, 7:1) is measured from the bow roller to the bottom, NOT depth of water. Otherwise Mike's guidance is good.


Just for the record Auspicious, that's what I thought I wrote, or intended to ... perhaps not as clearly as Minn's post.

BTW, I like Minnewaska nuanced additions. In reality we will start to dig in the anchor once about 2/3rd of our expected rode is out, but it is a gradual and gentle process, tailored to each anchoring experience. And I always put out lots of rode. The more, the merrier. I'd rather spend more time in the morning hauling up, than dealing with any overnight alternative .

One thing I never see mentioned is the use of tactile feel when setting the anchor. I put a hand on the rode and feel what the anchor is doing. If it's bouncing along it's easy to tell. If it's grabbing and slipping, again easy tell. If its holding I can feel it faster than I can see it. Not everyone can get a hold of their rode, but if you can, I suggest learning how it feels through the process.


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## davekrista (Mar 3, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies. Yes we are using the Danforth that is in the pic in the original post. Its the anchor that came with the boat when we purchased it this winter. 

Since Dave is the one that was anchoring, I can't say for sure what he did, but I can say for sure, it wasn't what Mike has suggested, lol... We were in about 9-10 ft of water, the depth meter kept fluctuating depending on how we drifted. After reading Mikes post, Dave said we don't have enough chain on it and that he didn't let out nearly enough rope. 

He had tried setting it a couple times and the last time he had thought it set, and it did for about 20 min before we started drifting. When we brought up the anchor it was covered in seaweed, so I'm sure that didn't help. 

Thanks for all the advice. I think we will be looking for a better anchor.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

davekrista said:


> When we brought up the anchor it was covered in seaweed, so I'm sure that didn't help.


That is a common problem with fluke type anchors like yours. They get bound up in the vegetation and you think you are set until wind or current picks up. Then the weed pulls out and you are drifting.

Give your anchor time to settle (5 minutes or so is plenty) and then back down. Ease the power up by stages in reverse but there is no reason NOT to use full power. You can't possible match the load of a windy day. If it won't hold under full power reverse it won't hold in a summer afternoon thunderstorm.

If you are going to replace your anchor, which I would recommend, get any of the new generation scoop anchors (Rocna, Manson Supreme, Spade). The performance is hugely better in nearly all bottoms than any older design anchors.


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

Yorksailor said:


> Excellent post Mike and Mr F's link to the data on anchoring will provide me with hours of amusement as I sit at anchor!
> 
> The one point I would add is that we never 'anchor and run'. We set the anchor and then take a break watching out position and then after an hour we put load on the anchor again just to make sure we are really set.
> 
> ...


Plus one, and thanks to Mike for a very clear description of the anchoring process.

My $.02: With a modern anchor appropriate to the bottom conditions, use enough chain to provide some catenary and avoid chafe from the seabed, coral, rocks etc. (30-50 feet of chain works for us). Use enough rode to allow a minimum of 5:1 scope and more in heavy conditions. Lower the gear to the bottom under control and back down on it to set the hook. Do not simply dump it all overboard and pop open a beer.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

A general comment from the situation here. We have a tendency to use words like Danforth, Bruce, and CQR when we should be saying Danforth-style, Bruce-style, CQR-style. Once these older anchors lost their patent protection it was an open market for copies that were in some, or many, ways similar to the originals. Often the copies were not as strongly built or did not get the angle of penetration right. I certainly think that it is a rare copy that comes close to the quality of the original. Having said that I am a big fan or the newer style anchors though.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Mike's comment on feeling the rode to tell what the anchor is doing is a good one. One of the things I don't like about all chain is that it is much more difficult to tell, by hand, what the anchor is doing because of the catenary. With rope rode you can tell immediately.

To me the most important part of choosing any anchor type is to make sure it is MUCH bigger than the size listed in the manufacturers specs. Overkill is a good thing when it comes to anchors. If a 25# anchor is listed for your boat size, get the 40# model Weight rules.


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

I'm shocked everyone keeps enabling these two when they have no idea what they are doing, with a baby on-board no less.

The single most important thing when anchoring, IMHO, is the bottom you are on and scope and they clearly had no idea about either 

I bet you they had 15 ft of line out in 10 feet of water, not 50, 75 or even a hundred...

You're lucky you did not drift a ground


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

smurphny said:


> Mike's comment on feeling the rode to tell what the anchor is doing is a good one. One of the things I don't like about all chain is that it is much more difficult to tell, by hand, what the anchor is doing because of the catenary. With rope rode you can tell immediately.


Agreed smurphny, it is harder to read all-chain. I switched from rope-chain to all chain about four years ago. It took me a little while to understand what I was feeling, b/c it is different, but it is still possible to feel your way to good anchoring with all-chain.


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

azguy said:


> I'm shocked everyone keeps enabling these two when they have no idea what they are doing, with a baby on-board no less.
> 
> The single most important thing when anchoring, IMHO, is the bottom you are on and scope and they clearly had no idea about either
> 
> ...


It was only a matter of time wasn't it. I hope this was a internet attempt at sarcasm, but more likely it was a typical attack on someone looking for help.

Good for the OP to come looking for how to do better next time. Sad that they are attacked for doing so and getting great advise. Heck, I am glad they had the incident, came on and got advise. Then I didn't have to ask!


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## urbanhermit (Nov 15, 2010)

Good question and a better answer Mike.


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## Noelex (Jan 23, 2008)

Mike has given you some good advice.

The aim is not to put any force on the anchor until your proper scope has been laid out, but try and lay the rode out along the bottom without piling it in a heap. When the correct scope has been reached gradually increase the force on the anchor, by applying more reverse revs (I usually end after reaching full reverse and keeping it there for 30 s). Monitor some transits and the rode to make sure you are not pulling the anchor backwards.

Danforth anchors have very high holding power in soft substrates, providing there is not a wind shift. However the sort of model you have with the tripping shank are usually poorly made and the sliding shank is not safe overnight, so I would look at getting a new anchor.

The concave roll bar anchors (Mantus, Rocna and Manson Supreme) are a great choice. The new generation anchors set very easily and will usually still set even if you do not get everything just right.
Mantus have sent me an anchor to test and it has been performing wonderfully so far.

This is a video I took of the Mantus setting. It will give you some idea what you are trying to achieve underwater.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

As others have intimated, a good thing to do with that anchor would be to just see how it sets without the rode Without sending this thread into another "best anchor" orbit, any of the well known all-round anchors would be much better. Only with experience will you understand how to anchor in different conditions of wind, current, and bottoms. Also, you should have more than one anchor. I keep 5 aboard. My main is a 32kg CQR which I plan on replacing with a newer design.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

davekrista said:


> Can anyone help with some anchor tips? We tried to anchor for the first time today in an empty cove to row to a beach. Dave took all but the baby with him in the dinghy. The baby and I stayed on the boat so I could try to get her to nap and do some fishing. Dave thought the anchor was good but it wasn't and we kept drifting to shallower water.
> 
> Any tips on how to set this kind of anchor?


May I suggest sailing lessons? One of the topics in ASA 103 is anchoring.

DISCLAIMER: I am an ASA Instructor.


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## CapnBones (Sep 20, 2010)

10 feet of water, I am putting out at least 75 ft. 

+1 on SVAuspicious, I ramp all the way up to full bore in reverse, because it is true that your engine cannot match the force of the wind. After I back down on her real hard I like to leave the engine running while I go and pick up the cabin, open the hatches, find the rum... Gives the anchor time to settle and the boat to move around it a little, 15 minutesish, then I will back her down one more time and ramp back up to full power to make sure it's holding.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

15 minutes?????????????????????????????


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Can't be good for an engine to leave it at wide open throttle for very long. Especially, if pulling a set anchor. I get the point of testing the set, but I also question whether this is necessary when you have a 100hp turbo charged engine. If there were a stuck waste gate, you would trash the motor. I only momentarily run her up to about 60% of power. I really don't know if that is similar to full throttle on a 60hp, for example. I'm sure it's not that linear, but you get the point.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

My feeling is that the anchor is either set or not. Yanking on it hard for a prolonged period of time is probably not necessary and maybe counterproductive. If expecting a big blow soon it might make sense to do something like this to really bury the anchor ahead of time but you wouldn't need to rev up that high to sink the hook deeper. It might in fact just tend to eliminate the catenary and pull the shank up enough to dislodge the anchor. You probably want the anchor digging in gradually with the chain on the sea floor.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

And here I thought the best way to set a Danforth or similar was to screw a helix into the bottom and then tie the anchor off to it.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

7:1 scope is not realistic in the deep anchorages that we have in the Salish Sea. There is no anchoring in 10' water here, a normal tidal swing is more than 10' and you have to plan around the deepest water that you'll see while anchored.

7:1 scope in 30' of water (that is a typical anchorage here) and 3' of freeboard means 231' of rode, which means you are swinging a massive circle. With a modern anchor 4:1 gives similar holding power but lets you use 132' of rode, which gives a lot more room for your neighbors.

7:1 scope in a 75' anchorage (as deep as I've had to go) is 525' of rode, how many people carry that much? 

I also like to use an anchor alarm (there are apps for most phones which will do this) as a backup.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Generally good advice here, but I'm suprized that nobody has mentioned the issue of using too much chain in soft mud. It's a specific problem to these danforth style anchors, but if you use too much chain, the shank of the anchor can pivot below the horizontal surface of the bottom, and they'll never set.










These anchors SET best on about a 3:1 scope and then after they are set, you should let out the appropriate amount of scope for your area and conditions (usually 5:1 or 7:1) and pull test the anchor at that point.

See this post:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1051033-post36.html

Also, see the fortress anchor knowledge base. They have very good info here which is applicable to your type of anchor:
Fortress Anchors ? The World's Best Anchors! ? Safe Anchoring Guide

MedSailor


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Excellent point that scope should be calculated from high tide, assuming you are staying through it!!

I think it's generally impractical for most to carry more than 300 feet or so of chain/rode. We carry 200 ft of all chain, although, typical anchorages are 15ft deep. Even with a 5ft freeboard, 140 ft gets the job done. Just under 30ft depth is our limiter, as a result. 

I do not, however, think one can reinvent scope, just because they don't have access to shallow water or enough chain/rode. I'm also not sure how one can tell what the guy next to you has put out, in order to match swing.


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## CapnBones (Sep 20, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> 15 minutes?????????????????????????????


Ahhh, re-read what I wrote. I back down on it hard, then leave the boat in neutral for 15 minutes while I clean up, to give it time to swing around a bit. Then back down on it hard again. Also not wide open throttle for 5 minutes or something, just close to it for 10-20 seconds to make sure it doesn't pull up. Cleans those carbon deposits out of the engine too! haha


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## CapnBones (Sep 20, 2010)

smurphny said:


> My feeling is that the anchor is either set or not. Yanking on it hard for a prolonged period of time is probably not necessary and maybe counterproductive. If expecting a big blow soon it might make sense to do something like this to really bury the anchor ahead of time but you wouldn't need to rev up that high to sink the hook deeper. It might in fact just tend to eliminate the catenary and pull the shank up enough to dislodge the anchor. You probably want the anchor digging in gradually with the chain on the sea floor.


"You know these storms boss, they come on ya fast, they leave ya fast"

IMHO - I would rather be ready for a big blow whether I know it's coming or not. If pulling hard with the engine pulls the anchor, it isn't going to stay put if the weather turns.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> I do not, however, think one can reinvent scope, just because they don't have access to shallow water or enough chain/rode. I'm also not sure how one can tell what the guy next to you has put out, in order to match swing.


I'm not trying to reinvent scope. I'm saying to be practical about it using the best research today. 4:1 (measured properly) is good.

Ground Rules: Anchoring in Three Dimensions | Sail Magazine

Scope vs catenary (Rocna Knowledge Base) -- which advises using less scope in deeper water.

You can always ask your nearest neighbor what scope they've used.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

I am just recently finished with a close to 4 month cruise in NZ. During that period I would estimate we anchored about 200 times. In all I would guess we had more than a 3:1 scope maybe a handful of times. Sure I would have liked to have put out more scope but that is how most peope anchor there. In order to put out more scope I would have had to drop in a less sheltered area. The number of times I dragged anchor - zero. I should also point out that during our cruise we had wind/gale/storm warnings close to 35% of the time.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

CapnBones said:


> "You know these storms boss, they come on ya fast, they leave ya fast"
> 
> IMHO - I would rather be ready for a big blow whether I know it's coming or not. If pulling hard with the engine pulls the anchor, it isn't going to stay put if the weather turns.


I've always found that slow and easy is better when it comes to getting the anchor set. Overpowering is tough on gear and I don't think an anchor can be forced into the bottom faster than it can handle without clogging up and/or pulling out. An anchor needs to slip through the bottom to get deeper and not compress a big, dense lump of mud in front of it.

I'm glad to see the truth coming out here about scope. Safe anchoring specs like 7:1 or 5:1 are idealistic but very often just not possible for a variety of reasons.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

ScottUK said:


> I am just recently finished with a close to 4 month cruise in NZ. During that period I would estimate we anchored about 200 times. In all I would guess we had more than a 3:1 scope maybe a handful of times. Sure I would have liked to have put out more scope but that is how most peope anchor there. In order to put out more scope I would have had to drop in a less sheltered area. The number of times I dragged anchor - zero. I should also point out that during our cruise we had wind/gale/storm warnings close to 35% of the time.


So true that the scope I want, and the scope I get, are often not the same, especially when I was anchoring on a mostly rope rode. Once, in desolation sound in a completely deserted anchorage, I put out my full 10:1 in deep water, just because I could. No other reason, I just felt like it was my only opportunity to ever do so.

It was kind of a strange feeling, going to sleep on one side of the harbor and waking up on the other. 

It's one of the reasons I like using HEAVY chain. It makes me feel better about using less scope than I'd like. Sure, I know that if we get hurricane force winds, the catenary will disappear, but for more moderate conditions it should help.

MedSailor


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

CapnBones said:


> Ahhh, re-read what I wrote. I back down on it hard, then leave the boat in neutral for 15 minutes while I clean up, to give it time to swing around a bit. Then back down on it hard again. Also not wide open throttle for 5 minutes or something, just close to it for 10-20 seconds to make sure it doesn't pull up. Cleans those carbon deposits out of the engine too! haha


sorry it reads like you are hammering it in reverse for 15 minutes, take a break then hammer on it again! jajaja my bad

I hear you on the engine clean though, a lot of engine manufacturers recomend this high load every once in a while to prevent soot and deposit buildup especially in the exhaust elbows, manifold etc..

cheers


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

smurphny said:


> I've always found that slow and easy is better when it comes to getting the anchor set. Overpowering is tough on gear and I don't think an anchor can be forced into the bottom faster than it can handle without clogging up and/or pulling out. An anchor needs to slip through the bottom to get deeper and not compress a big, dense lump of mud in front of it.
> 
> I'm glad to see the truth coming out here about scope. Safe anchoring specs like 7:1 or 5:1 are idealistic but very often just not possible for a variety of reasons.


thats the way I was taught too...you progressively back down until almost reaching full power but not maxxed out for sure and the more progressive the better

btw over all the pacific and coast of central america we always used 3 to 1 or 4 to 1....in normal conditions...only letting out when we felt the weather or wind was wild etc...

jamming it real fast is the best way to skip many an anchor...I have also managed to pull a set anchor clean off by doing the cowboy thing too hard...

thats how you learn

its all in the finesse if you will...how you lay the rode...while going back slowly paying out then progressive throttle once your scope is out, a little pull to check and time for some rest!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

if I may add, regarding the op avoid the extremes of going huge overweight chain...it will become a nuissance and you will do yourself a disservice...

its entirely possible to not be able to set well with your outboard...

go big or go home doesnt always equal better(small boats)

and btw

on a boat your size I was always a fan of throwing my anchor off the side...from the cockpit...

made setting it by sail downwind or simply by sail no motor, easy as pie and it also was very easy to tie off the rode up to the bow after dousing sail or whatever

small boats are cool like this

on my follkboat 5k lbs or soI used 20 feet of chain, a danforth and 100feet of rode...

IN san francisco thats how I used my setup and it worked fine

off the side from the cockpit tie off to cleat, set, take it to the bow and make some coco on the stove in the fog!

I also had to do an emergency set by current only as there was no wind and an out of gas...what I did was try to get as much speed going with what I had while paying out rode, tying the cleat at the last moment and pulling real hard by hand against the current to set it, jajja that was fun but it worked

if I were to have all chain in that scenario and a big too big anchor that wouldnt of worked...yes the weight would of stopped me but it wouldnt be set...

anywhoo

peace


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Guys, great discussion, but she's on a 22 ft boat displacing just over 2,000 in benign conditions and anchoring for a couple hours in the afternoon. She should be able to drop that danforth over the side and walk away. I bet the anchor went down backwards with that ring on the shaft. Probably picked up the weeds only when pulling it in and it actually flipped around the right way. With that ring, just lower the anchor (don't toss) until you feel it hit bottom, let the wind/current do its work, and I bet you'll be all set. Got an almost identical anchor on my Dad's 19 ft powerboat and it'll hold on most any bottom, with little scope, up to about 20 kts of wind.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

hence my post at least! jajaja I agree 

keep anchor and rode in a lazarette throw off side and bobs your uncle


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Guys,

Very timely discussion, since we're hoping to do a week-long cruise into the Chesapeake in a couple weeks. Right now I have 3 Danforths - two 8 lb lunch hooks and a 13 pound knockoff. I've used the 8 pounders as a lunch hook before. I've never even tried the 13 pounder, and I'm not too crazy about the look of the flukes - very dull looking. (A buddy gave it to me because he was cleaning out his garage.)

All these horror stories of anchoring woes make me think of just marina hopping for our trip. We have no onboard shower, so we're going to want to stop somewhere with showers at least every other day. But I was hoping to maybe spend a few nights on the hook too. I've been considering a 25 lb Mantus or similar so I can sleep well. But it all adds up quickly: $200-300 for the anchor, $100 for decent chain (which I don't have right now). I can rent slips for that kind of money. Plus, I need to bring a tender along, and that's yet more stuff to drag along, plus trolling motor and battery. And doing more marina/restaurant stops would simplify provisioning, which would make my wife happy.

I'm glad to hear of others dropping the anchor out of the cockpit - I've done that before because it allows better control in some situations. You can drop an 8 lb hook from anywhere but when I get to 25 lbs I'm going to want to do it from a safe place. My boat has no room for a roller, and the anchor locker won't fit anything other than a Danforth.

Keep the suggestions coming - I'm enjoying it.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Not a big fan of danforths or any anchor with moveable parts. They seem counterintuitive to me.



> I've been considering a 25 lb Mantus or similar so I can sleep well. But it all adds up quickly: $200-300 for the anchor, $100 for decent chain (which I don't have right now). I can rent slips for that kind of money.


You will likely save money for a time intially but not over the longer haul. However I think you are overlooking a large factor in having a proper anchoring setup and that's safety. I would also include having a tender along as a safety measure. Never thought about going cruising without adequete ground tackle because I would never consider it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

When you're cruising, setting an anchor is not the tough part. Even if it take more than one attempt, you'll eventually get it. The tough part is having it reset itself in the middle of the night, if you swing around. I could not sleep on a Danforth for that reason alone.

At best, I would want an anchor app that will alarm if I swing, not just move outside a circle. The one I use does that, but itsn't available in the Apple store anymore, for some reason. I've downloaded another, but haven't tested it yet. Anyway, it could theoretically wake you to go reset the anchor yourself. But, the technology should be a backup IMO, not your primary measure.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

ScottUK said:


> Not a big fan of danforths or any anchor with moveable parts. They seem counterintuitive to me.
> 
> You will likely save money for a time intially but not over the longer haul. However I think you are overlooking a large factor in having a proper anchoring setup and that's safety. I would also include having a tender along as a safety measure. Never thought about going cruising without adequete ground tackle because I would never consider it.


I don't disagree with any of this. But when I list out all the gear I need, pretty soon I have to add a larger boat to the list. The fact is, we are daysailors who do occasional weekends. Usually we charter a larger boat when we go out for a whole week. This time, for various reasons, we're taking our own boat. It's only on the upper Chesapeake - nothing offshore, in fact, rarely more than a mile from shore.

So many comments come from the mindset of full-time cruisers. $300 for an anchor is nothing when you anchor every day. But anchoring only once or twice a year, the economics change.

I don't think I'd anchor overnight with a Danforth because it doesn't reset when the winds shift. But I've never had a problem getting it to set for a short time. The fact that it fits in my anchor locker means it's always there and rigged if I need it in a pinch - a big safety plus. None of the plow anchors would come anywhere close to fitting in my anchor locker. It's only a 25 foot boat.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Some of the worst blows I've been caught in have been in seemingly benign places when the weather forecast goes awry. This happens quite often. Thunderstorms, fronts, and just plain weird weather can ruin your day if the hook doesn't hold. I think it is fairly foolish to leave the dock without an anchor you know will hold the boat in a 40 knot wind.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I cruised for 30 years Long Island Sound and the southern New England Coast with only Danforth type anchors. In muddy bottoms, they work VERY well. My current second anchor is a Fortress, and it has amazing holding power and is very easy to handle. For the daysailor that only occasionally anchors overnight, I have no problem with only a Danforth. My biggest issue with them is that after a good blow, they are set so well they can be tough to retrieve.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Interesting discussion. Thanks for posting those references Alex. Definitely a good read. But this line in the Don Casey piece I found utterly amazing: "No anchoring test I've seen in the last three decades has proved that increasing scope beyond 4:1 actually increases holding power." Not according to these sources:

First off, the Smith paper actually says 3:1 is the absolute lower limit. He says "Generally speaking about 5:1 is appropriate." He does say the catenary effect means one can use less in deep water, but 5:1 is his general recommendation. This is echoed by a 2012 Practical Sailor test, and by Alain Hylas (Inventor of the 'Spade' anchor):. Both say increasing rode up to 10:1 has a measurable benefit:

_"Holding is in direct relation to the pulling length of the rode .. . (or more accurately, the pulling angle). Generally speaking, with a scope of 4/1 you will have about 55 % of the maximum holding of the anchor, with a scope of 6/1 about 70 % with a scope of 8/1: 80 % and with 10/1 about 85 % the maximum. - 100 % holding will be achieved with a horizontal rode or a "Infinite/1 scope. Increasing the scope will be efficient up to 10/1 - With more than 10/1, a large increase in the scope will give only a negligable increase in holding."_

Interestingly, the PS study concludes that yawing and pitching are where peak loads are created, not by the sustained wind. Most peak loads are shock-induced, not sustained pulls by building wind. This suggests that we should pay as much attention to limiting pitching and yawing.


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## CapnBones (Sep 20, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> Guys,
> 
> Very timely discussion, since we're hoping to do a week-long cruise into the Chesapeake in a couple weeks. Right now I have 3 Danforths - two 8 lb lunch hooks and a 13 pound knockoff. I've used the 8 pounders as a lunch hook before. I've never even tried the 13 pounder, and I'm not too crazy about the look of the flukes - very dull looking. (A buddy gave it to me because he was cleaning out his garage.)


Where are you guys heading in the Chesapeake? The bottom conditions in the Chesapeake are quite muddy and actually very conducive to a Danforth, I don't know that I would sleep well on only 8 pounds though. That is all we used for years of sailing a Cal 30 and doing weekend trips on the hook. We woke up in a nasty blow one morning with other boats dragging past us and the anchor had set so hard that we had to use the motor to drive over it and pull it up, we weren't going anywhere. Don't get me wrong I love my Rocna now, but I still have a danforth in the lazarette and have great confidence in it in the Chesapeake


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

smurphny said:


> Some of the worst blows I've been caught in have been in seemingly benign places when the weather forecast goes awry. This happens quite often. Thunderstorms, fronts, and just plain weird weather can ruin your day if the hook doesn't hold. I think it is fairly foolish to leave the dock without an anchor you know will hold the boat in a 40 knot wind.


But you don't want to back down hard on the anchor to test the set? You cannot possible equal the loads from a thunderstorm with your engine.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

TakeFive said:


> I don't think I'd anchor overnight with a Danforth because it doesn't reset when the winds shift. But I've never had a problem getting it to set for a short time. The fact that it fits in my anchor locker means it's always there and rigged if I need it in a pinch - a big safety plus. None of the plow anchors would come anywhere close to fitting in my anchor locker. It's only a 25 foot boat.


I was able to fit a Bruce-style claw anchor (22lb I think) and a Danforth in the anchor locker on my Catalina 25, along with lots of rode. It was a little bit of a puzzle to get both in there, but it worked. I think a 15lb Manson Supreme would have fit, but I no longer have the boat.

My Pearson 28-2 has a much shallower anchor locker and won't fit anything but rode and maybe a small Danforth. I keep a Manson Supreme on the bow.

Claw anchors are a budget option that work very well in Puget Sound. The Lewmar Claw can be had for as little as $60 (22lb) and works well in our muddy and weedy bottom. They also seem to reset a lot better than a Danforth. I don't think they are as well adapted to the conditions on the east coast though, and they are as hard to store as a modern anchor.

The Manson Supreme is sold for very good prices at our boat show, I bet the same is true at the Annapolis one. I think I got the 25lb version for about $150.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

SVAuspicious said:


> But you don't want to back down hard on the anchor to test the set? You cannot possible equal the loads from a thunderstorm with your engine.


I do back down and set the anchor initially, just not so hard that it may pop the anchor. A few years ago, I was anchored in New Harbor at Block I. when a quickly developing front blasted through from the north, one of those black wall events. I was in deep water, probably 30' but had been there over a day and was sure my anchor was set well. If you've ever been in Great Salt Pond, you know how darned crowded it gets. The VHF started issuing alerts about 1/2 hr. before the front arrived. I saw it coming and donned my ski goggles, started the engine just in case and got on deck ready to fend off. The wind blew through, I estimate at 60 knots. All H broke loose and slipped boats were all over the place. The tow boat guys were busy to say the least. You never know when one of these blinding storms will whip through so having at least one proven anchor is important. When in spots where there are not boats swinging close-by, I actually prefer two anchors given a bit of warning, especially if it's going to blow overnight.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

MikeOReilly said:


> Interesting discussion. Thanks for posting those references Alex. Definitely a good read. But this line in the Don Casey piece I found utterly amazing: "No anchoring test I've seen in the last three decades has proved that increasing scope beyond 4:1 actually increases holding power."


I agree that Don Casey is being a little too strong in his wording. A better way to put it would have been "No anchoring test I've seen in the last three decades has proved that increased scope beyond 4:1 has major gains in holding power".

The PS test (graph is here: http://cdn.practical-sailor.com/media/newspics/load_graph.jpg) among others shows about a 15-20% increase in holding power between 4:1 scope and 7:1 scope. That isn't nothing, but it isn't huge either. If you need to control your swing and are anchoring in 30' deep waters (which are on the medium range for an anchorage around here) then 4:1 is a lot more practical than 7:1.

I've watched a lot of people anchor around here and have seen few, if any, put out 7:1 scope.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

smurphny said:


> I do back down and set the anchor initially, just not so hard that it may pop the anchor. A few years ago, I was anchored in New Harbor at Block I. when a quickly developing front blasted through from the north, one of those black wall events. I was in deep water, probably 30' but had been there over a day and was sure my anchor was set well. If you've ever been in Great Salt Pond, you know how darned crowded it gets. The VHF started issuing alerts about 1/2 hr. before the front arrived. I saw it coming and donned my ski goggles, started the engine just in case and got on deck ready to fend off. The wind blew through, I estimate at 60 knots. All H broke loose and slipped boats were all over the place. The tow boat guys were busy to say the least. You never know when one of these blinding storms will whip through so having at least one proven anchor is important. When in spots where there are not boats swinging close-by, I actually prefer two anchors given a bit of warning, especially if it's going to blow overnight.


Sounds familiar. I've been through a couple of those over the years, but not quite as bad as what you describe. Anchoring in the GSP in July and August is probably among the most challenging on the southern New England Coast. Depths are either 25+ feet or very shallow, and crowded so everyone's on short scope. I usually am able to find a spot in water that's not too deep that I can put out two anchors.


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## CapnBones (Sep 20, 2010)

Another thing that people don't think about in regards to scope and with crowded anchorages, anchor near other boats that are similar to yours. Some anchorages are going to be tight no matter what and even if you are matching scope with all your neighbors, different boats swing differently depending on keel design and windage. Doesn't always work, but if you are near other boats of a similar design you are more likely to swing at the same time and in the same way, decreasing the chances of meeting any of your neighbors for reasons other than a sundowner.


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

Yep, putting out 7/1 scope up here in the NW would be a challenge in most Anchorages. By the time you are in shallow water you are nearly up on shore. In my classes years back, our instructor went through all the ASA anchoring stuff and taught it all. When he finished he told us we now had what we needed to pass the test. "Now I will teach you how to anchor in Alaska, these skills will not be on the test". Tying to shore, short scope, angle of the bottom, is there a creek pushing you against the wind?, etc, etc. In my lake I can toss the danforth knockoff out in 15/20' and put out 7/1 scope. Something tells me this aint going to work out in PWS next week.

Thanks for the point though on the slip ring as an overnight anchor! Never thought about it releasing itself (that is the point in the slip ring after all). Only a good lunch hook. We grabbed a Danforth Claw for the future though.

Great discussion! Learning more with each page.


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## Noelex (Jan 23, 2008)

Alex W said:


> The PS test (graph is here: http://cdn.practical-sailor.com/media/newspics/load_graph.jpg) among others shows about a 15-20% increase in holding power between 4:1 scope and 7:1 scope. That isn't nothing, but it isn't huge either.


Alex is there any text to go with the graphs?

They look to me like they are measuring the load at various scopes and windspeeds, rather than holding power.

The load will only reduce slightly at higher scopes, but the anchors holding power (which does not seem to shown on the graph) will go up dramatically with increased scope. Which is what is important, so increased scope results in a great deal more security and holding power.

I may be interpreting this wrong without any explanation, it is not clear what is being graphed


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

noelex77 said:


> Alex is there any text to go with the graphs?


It is at this link, previously mentioned in the thread. You need to be a subscriber to read it.

Anchor Testing and Rode Loads - Practical Sailor Article



noelex77 said:


> They look to me like they are measuring the load at various scopes and windspeeds, rather than holding power.
> 
> The load will only reduce slightly at higher scopes, but the anchors holding power (which does not seem to shown on the graph) will go up dramatically with increased scope. Which is what is important, so increased scope results in a great deal more security and holding power.


They are measuring instantaneous peak load using a high freeboard/high windage boat (it is a 35' catamaran if I remember correctly). They can't measure holding power without having the anchor slip and fail, and they were testing this with a boat (not a static rig).

They do discuss why they think that common slowly increased load holding power tests are invalid. I don't know of any anchor holding tests that are using shock loads to determine maximum holding, or which do so at different scopes. Do you?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

It's clear that more rode does make a difference. It's also clear that it's a scale of diminishing benefit. Going from 3:1 to 4:1 is a big difference, but going from 7:1 to 8:1 is minimally useful. As Hylas and the PS article says, there is no measurable benefit to going beyond 10:1, and very likely any practical benefit diminish to near zero before that (7:1? 6:1? 8:1? I dunno...).

As we all know, it's hard, and perhaps dangerous, to generalize too much about "the best" anchoring. Effective anchoring is hugely influenced by boat and location. It is also constrained by rode and anchor size that can be managed, as well as crowd density. What works well in one area (or what is possible) cannot easily be generalized to other areas. 

I spent two weeks a number of years ago sailing the PNW north of Vancouver. I was amazed and how little rode we would put out (this was a CYA course). After a few nights I relaxed. 4:1 worked just fine, partly b/c conditions were a lot more predictable and stable. Frontal effects were limited and thunderstorms events are few, unlike on the east coast, or even worse, on the Great Lakes. Here we can experience massive wind shifts in very short order. 

I would not sleep well with 4:1 out in most anchorages on the Great Lakes.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Guys,

Thanks for all the helpful comments. For this newbie to anchoring, it is all very helpful. It's also abundantly clear that a Danforth does not reset nearly as well as the newer plow-type anchors (especially the ones with roll bars). But it's nice to see that some of you have actually survived the death-defying act of anchoring overnight with a Danforth. :laugher

My dilemma is whether to bite the bullet now and buy a new-generation anchor, or use my current 13 lb. Danforth clone to "test the waters" and see if my wife and I are going to even want to anchor out in the future.

One thing is for certain: No matter what anchor we have, we are going to pick our conditions carefully. My wife is terrified of being anywhere near an aluminum stick during a storm, and we once evacuated to land at 4 am when a storm came through. So if there's any likelihood of a storm, we're heading for a marina for the night.

With this as a given, my debate is whether to try my current 13 lb Danforth out for this upcoming cruise. If I can defer my purchase of a new anchor until the fall, maybe I can land a $150 deal at the Annapolis Boat Show.

Someone else mentioned using two anchors for greater security. What configuration do you use for two anchors? In particular, I'm curious that if there's a gentle wind shift forecast one night, and you're in a spot that's not crowded with other boats that need to swing together, would it be advisable to drop a second hook off the stern to keep the boat on a line so the Danforth doesn't reset? I know that you don't want the boat to be broach to a strong wind, but if the forecast is for gentle winds, and/or your spot is protected from all the right directions, wouldn't a second anchor help to maintain the set of the first anchor?

Also, if you use a different configuration for two anchors, how do you prevent the rodes from tangling around each other and/or around the keel?

Thanks for your patient responses to my naive questions.


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

TakeFive: I will only say that this thread got me to think of the dangers of sleeping on a danforth clone with the slip ring on it. I don't think anyone said they are bad in general, just not as nice as the new gen anchors. Sure wish I could afford a nice shiny mantus or some such. I was out overnight about 20 nights or so last summer and a handful already this year, all on a danforth clone with the slip ring, wind just kept me in the same direction all night. Never moved, kept a drag alarm on. I can see how it would easily release under some conditions though so we changed it, this thread is making me glad we did! 

If yours isn't a slip ring type it may be enough though. Ours is 12#, boat 2100, and winds up to 20 or so. Nice solid mud bottom always if I keep it outta the weeds where it just won't set. Always has held overnight.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

I've found that the biggest threat to a good set is sea cabbage. the bane of PNW anchoring. Setting the hook of any kind should be slow and easy at first to allow it to slip through without picking up a gullet of vegetation. Then the firm application of backup. I was running an 80 lb CQR type. 25 fathom of 1/2 chain and 400 ft of braid. Rarely had to try more than once which was good as winch was single acting armstrong . This hook ,60ft chain and 200ft rode is available in Naniamo for the princely sum of $350. ???? (was backup set)


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> Some anchorages are going to be tight no matter what and even if you are matching scope with all your neighbors, different boats swing differently depending on keel design and windage.


I have found differences in ground tackle to have a greater bearing then keel design and windage.



> My dilemma is whether to bite the bullet now and buy a new-generation anchor, or use my current 13 lb. Danforth clone to "test the waters" and see if my wife and I are going to even want to anchor out in the future.


I would have thought you would have tried anchoring when you did your charters. Having a reliable anchoring set up lets you visit places not normally accessible by land and is a major benefit to cruising, at least for my wife and I. I think a 6 kg rocna, 10m of appropriately sized chain and 50m of rode with SS flange on the interior of the eye connecting to the chain would be the ticket. With this set up the more scope you put out the more your boat will move around and with higher gusts of wind you will likely be beam on but it will not be a problem if the anchor is properly set i.e. gradually backing down.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

helpful info:

Anchoring a Boat: The Ultimate Guide | ALL AT SEA


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## Noelex (Jan 23, 2008)

Alex W said:


> They are measuring instantaneous peak load using a high freeboard/high windage boat (it is a 35' catamaran if I remember correctly). They can't measure holding power without having the anchor slip and fail, and they were testing this with a boat (not a static rig).
> 
> They do discuss why they think that common slowly increased load holding power tests are invalid. I don't know of any anchor holding tests that are using shock loads to determine maximum holding, or which do so at different scopes. Do you?


Thanks for the link. Unfortunately I am not a subscriber.

There are two effects of increasing scope.

1. The anchor shank is pulled at a lower angle. This give the anchor much greater holding capacity. The shallower the pull the better the anchor can dig down.

2. Increasing scope decreases the peak load on the anchor because the chain catenary smooths out the force. This has a big effect at low windspeeds, but only a small effect in stronger wind.

The graph (I think) is only trying to measure the total load and by measuring at various scopes the second effect. It is not attempting to quantify the first effect and therefore should not be used to estimate the total benefit of increasing scope. To do so drastically underestimates the benefit of increasing scope.

Anchors differ in their ability to cope with a shorter scope, but as a general guideline the results Fortress produce for the holding power at different scopes are a good starting point and roughly applicable to range of anchor designs.

2:1 10%
3:1 40%
5:1 70%
7:1 85%
10:1 100%

This does not mean you always should, or even can, use a long scope, but helpful to have some idea how much holding power is gained, or lost as the scope is changed.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> Guys,
> 
> My dilemma is whether to bite the bullet now and buy a new-generation anchor, or use my current 13 lb. Danforth clone to "test the waters" and see if my wife and I are going to even want to anchor out in the future....
> 
> ...


Yeah, I survived somewhere in the vicinity of a hundred nights sleeping to a Fortress on my old boat. I didn't have a windlass, and it allowed me to have an adequately sized anchor and as much chain as possible and still raise the anchor by hand. I still keep a big fortress with my new boat to raise on a mostly rope rode in case the windlass breaks, or I need a second anchor configuration.

I'd keep what you have (as long as it doesn't have the slip ring) and try it if you're not sure you're going to be anchoring much. Danforth style anchors work just fine if you use them right and understand their limitations. You'll sleep better if you understand their limitations and work with them, and consider an anchor drag alarm as well if so inclined.

They "can" pull out and fail to reset, but they likely on't in most conditions, and when they do, it's under a predictable set of circumstances. For this scenario to happen, you need three things all to happen just right:

1: The wind must shift more than 90dec (more like 180) from your original set.

2: The wind shift must be strong enough to flip the anchor over and unset it. (which is less force than pulling it out in the same direction that it was set) this also means that the wind shift needs to be quick, as the anchor will turn, and pivot while buried in softer media with gradual shifts in wind direction.

3: The anchor must fail to set in the new orientation. Often due to LOW SPEED winds rather than higher speed winds as the anchor may not "trip" enough to pivot the flukes downwards.

It's important to think this through, because under most circumstances you really don't have to worry. If you wake up 180deg from your original set with a 5knot breeze, or a 1knot current, don't worry, go back to sleep. It's not enough to unseat the anchor. If you have a <90deg wind shift but it's building, it's also not to be sweated because the anchor will likely pivot with the wind.

However, if you have a squall come up from the opposite direction and it knocks the books off the shelf and then is gone, you might want to check your set.

Regarding 2 anchors: During my Fortress anchoring days I did use 2 anchors quite frequently. This can not be done in a crowded anchorage because you won't swing, but you know this already. I've never figured how to do the "bahamian moor" without getting everything tangled up. I always put one from the bow and one from the stern. Unless you leave miles of slack in the system the boat can't turn and thus nothing gets fouled around the keel. Using 2 anchors allows the danforth style anchor to always have the correct direction of pull, which is a good thing. In short, if you expect shifting winds or strong shifting currents, it is a good idea.

MedSailor

P.S. I know fears are often not rational, but does your wife feel safe at a marina in a lightning storm, or do you have to go get a hotel? I don't think being at a marina is any more safe than being at anchor. I was aboard when my boat was struck (or a near strike with side branches of electricity) and I was at a marina.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

TakeFive said:


> With this as a given, my debate is whether to try my current 13 lb Danforth out for this upcoming cruise. If I can defer my purchase of a new anchor until the fall, maybe I can land a $150 deal at the Annapolis Boat Show.
> 
> Someone else mentioned using two anchors for greater security. What configuration do you use for two anchors? In particular, I'm curious that if there's a gentle wind shift forecast one night, and you're in a spot that's not crowded with other boats that need to swing together, would it be advisable to drop a second hook off the stern to keep the boat on a line so the Danforth doesn't reset? I know that you don't want the boat to be broach to a strong wind, but if the forecast is for gentle winds, and/or your spot is protected from all the right directions, wouldn't a second anchor help to maintain the set of the first anchor?
> 
> ...


A 13 lb Danforth is plenty for a boat your size. The 8 lb is OK for a lunch hook or second anchor, but not what I would want as the primary. I would get some experience with the 13 lb anchor and then decide if you want to upgrade and what you want.

As to setting two anchors, I set them at about 90 to 120 degrees apart. If I am in a situation where I want two anchors (not common), I will set the first, then use the engine to drive the boat to one side and then drop the second one. And yes, getting the lines twisted can be an issue, but wrapping around the keel is not. One spot I put out two anchors has a strong current and depending on wind direction, can drive the boat across the anchor line and wrap the keel. Setting two anchors solves that problem. As the current starts to move the boat up the first anchor, the second one becomes loaded and avoids the problem.

Anchoring is a skill that requires practice. Once you get some experience, you will begin to feel comfortable anchoring overnight. It will open up many options that just marina hopping won't give you.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

noelex77 said:


> Anchors differ in their ability to cope with a shorter scope, but as a general guideline the results Fortress produce for the holding power at different scopes are a good starting point and roughly applicable to range of anchor designs.
> 
> 2:1 10%
> 3:1 40%
> ...


These are theoretical numbers. They also vary based on the anchor.

The West Marine test has actual tested numbers:
http://newcontent.westmarine.com/content/documents/pdfs/WestAdvisor/2006-Anchor-Tests.pdf










For my Manson Supreme there is barely an increase in holding power going from 3:1 to 5:1. The same is true for the Rocna. For the Delta there is a massive increase in holding power with that increase in scope.

Given the fairly deep water that I typically anchor in I'm going to continue to use 4:1 in most conditions, increasing to 5:1 or 6:1 in rough ones. I've only had one anchor dragging issue and it was when the anchor fouled on kelp.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

There is nothing wrong with a good Danforth-style anchor. I don't like the slip ring idea, but proper Danforth or Fortress are great anchors. But they are not great for all conditions and all bottoms. They work well where they can penetrate the substate; sandy/firm muddy bottoms. They are more easily fouled with weeds, and don't do well with harder bottoms like gravel, rock or harder-packed muds or sands. 

I used to carry two bower anchors; a Danforth and a CQR. I would routinely switch between them depending on the bottom I was dealing with. Unless you are only anchoring in a known and appropriately-bottomed area, then I would definitely carry both styles. OR I would switch to the newer-style anchors which operate effective in a wider range of bottoms.

I too am a frugal (i.e. poor) cruiser, but one thing I never scrimp on is my anchor system. Unless I was completely confident about the bottoms I was anchoring in, I would definitely carry a good quality Danforth-style AND a good quality plow. Or, as I say, I would get a new-style anchor which seems to cover most the same turf.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Alex W said:


> These are theoretical numbers. They also vary based on the anchor.
> 
> The West Marine test has actual tested numbers:
> http://newcontent.westmarine.com/content/documents/pdfs/WestAdvisor/2006-Anchor-Tests.pdf
> ...


Yup, I believe the 'New Generation' anchors really have altered the 'Conventional Wisdom' regarding scope... In the sort of anchoring many of us do, 7:1 might often be overkill, and rarely achievable in harbors/anchorages shared with other boats... I've become very comfortable lying to about 5:1 with my Manson Supreme in all but the most 'extreme' of situations. In places like the Bahamas, having confidence in lying to a more minimal scope can often make the difference between having a place like Shroud Cay Harbor all to yourself, or not...



















Evans Starzinger has said he and Beth rarely lie to more than 5:1, and often find themselves lying to as little as 3:1 in more crowded or tighter spots...

Steve Dashew agrees:

SetSail» Blog Archive » More on Anchors and Sizing


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## Noelex (Jan 23, 2008)

Alex W said:


> For my Manson Supreme there is barely an increase in holding power going from 3:1 to 5:1. The same is true for the Rocna. For the Delta there is a massive increase in holding power with that increase in scope.


I agree there are differences between different anchors. The Delta is quite sensitive to scope and does struggle at a short scope much more than some other designs. The Rocna and Manson Supreme cope much better with 3:1, but the set and degree of bury at 5:1 is significantly better and the holding increase suggested by Fortress looks to be in the right ball park to me.

I have only had the Mantus a short time, but it seems excellent at a very short scope. Here is a photo taken after it was set and held full reverse @ 2:1. The angle of the chain in quite frightening at these very short scopes, when holding full reverse, and you wonder how any anchor can bury at all. Notice the shank has been left sticking up above the bottom, but the actual chain angle was much steeper than this. Scary. Despite this abuse the Mantus managed quite a reasonable set, with it's fluke completely buried. I was very impressed.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Hey MS, thanks for the thoughtful advice. It aligns pretty closely with my thinking. I think for now I'll consider saving my money and going with what I have. I'll invest in more/better chain. If we anchor far enough away from other boats so I don't need to swing, I'll consider dropping the lunch hook off the stern to ensure the bow anchor does not lose its set.

But all this is subject to change. I have a few days to think about whether to go ahead and pull the plug on a $200 Mantus 25 lb model. There is no question that it would set (and reset) more reliably than anything I have now. I'm just concerned about storage, and don't want to invest until I'm pretty sure I'll get significant use out of it.

I re-checked my 13 pounder last night, and the flukes aren't too terribly dull. They're not razor-sharp like a Fortress, but they're not terrible either. I'm going to try it out this weekend and see how it grabs on the mud bottoms near home. By the way, none of my anchors have the slip rings. I had read about the dangers of that design in Practical Sailor. And all of these anchors either came with the boat or were given to me.

For a 25 foot boat, another big advantage of the Danforth anchors is storage, since they store flat. I can fit two 8 pounders or one 13 pounder in my anchor locker, and ample space to store the others in my aft berth. And we have no windlass, roller, or any other heavy tackle, so dropping and pulling up by hand is required.

About your question about lightning, if you're on the boat then there is no difference in safety being at anchor or in a marina. But being at a marina enables you to quickly evacuate to land, which is what we did when the June 29, 2012 derecho storms rolled through the Chesapeake.

As for someone else's surprise about my lack of anchoring experience while chartering, it was mostly mooring balls and an occasional marina stay on very hot muggy nights when we wanted shore power for the AC. Only one night at anchor, and we were rafted up for added security.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

My sense is that if you feel you need to use two anchors what you really need is one good anchor. In 30k+ miles of sailing and hundreds of nights anchoring we saw one (1!) boat using two anchors and the guy made no friends by taking up half of a limited anchorage in French Polynesia while the other 5 or so boats shared the other half. In no way, shape or form did that anchorage require two anchors. It was an open area in the trades between an island and meandering reefs where the wind direction was quite constant. I was trying my best to remember how to swear in French with little success. I think 'tabernacle' may only be a French Canadian epithet.

The only time I can remember using two anchors was in the North Channel of Lake Huron when we were anchored behind a large hill. The wind (only 10-15 knots) would come around one side of the hill for an hour or so and then switch in a matter of less than a minute and come around the other side. It did this all day and you just kept sailing over the anchor and pulling it out - to reset or not. This was with a CQR. It would be interesting to see if your current Manson would work.

As to scope, we generally use between 3x and 5x depending on the condition. If there is lots of room or the winds may get nasty we will go to 7x or even a bit more. Would feel a proper fool if we dragged ashore with chain sitting in the locker. Probably the worst anchorage (an exaggeration, not the worst part but the anchorage part) was at Easter Island. We only had about 4x in quite deep water with swells sometimes in the 3 to 4 foot range and winds to 25 knots and never felt we even approached having a problem. Holding was great with sand. The week after we left the swells were 10 to 12 feet and people had 300 feet of chain (with a snubber) like a bar, but the couple of boats there did not drag. I can only imagine what it would have been like.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Im not familiar with your cruising area(I see killarney squeezed in jajaja) but danforths non slip ring are the preferred small boat anchor almost worldwide...or the fishing anchor...which is a galvanised tube with hooks bent all around...

panga fisherman and shrimpers use this down here...

like I said before for a 25 footer or so 20 feet of chain or a bit more, a shackle, and some nice strong anchor rode again not too oversized makes small boat anchoring a breeze...

one thing I like about danforth style is that its like fishing...to me its very easy to feel if the anchor grabs or not....also the great thing about being a small boat and using rode and not all chain is again that the feel you get when setting anchor...its very easy to see if you need more scope if the wind picks up, or changes etc...

its also a lot faster

On my wish list on my boat is a mantus...but even for my cruising grounds here all sand or brackish water mud I would have no issue having a danforth as my main anchor

the first thing any person should ask when beginning to anchor or looking for an anchor is where do I cruise...? 

Often times people who recomend and say such things as this is the best at everything dont tend to look at the details or specifics...

if your cruising grounds are limited, and one type of bottom terrain specific there is no problem having one anchor that best fits that bottom...a "general" backup anchor would be a smart addition...

anyways...

good luck


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> My sense is that if you feel you need to use two anchors what you really need is one good anchor. In 30k+ miles of sailing and hundreds of nights anchoring we saw one (1!) boat using two anchors and the guy made no friends by taking up half of a limited anchorage in French Polynesia while the other 5 or so boats shared the other half.


For normal (not storm) conditions I only use two anchors when setting a bahamian-moor, or when I'm trying to limit swing room. The only other time I've used two is when I was preparing for a fast-approaching frontal storm, and there I used two on the same rode, spaced apart (using one as a type of kellet). I'm totally with KS on this. If you think you need two anchors for normal anchoring, then you need a bigger (or better/more appropriate) anchor.



killarney_sailor said:


> The only time I can remember using two anchors was in the North Channel of Lake Huron when we were anchored behind a large hill.


Funny, my worst dragging scenario was also in the North Channel. Here I was on my big danforth. Just set -> tight anchorage -> sudden thunderstorm ... mayhem .



christian.hess said:


> Often times people who recomend and say such things as this is the best at everything dont tend to look at the details or specifics... if your cruising grounds are limited, and one type of bottom terrain specific there is no problem having one anchor that best fits that bottom...a "general" backup anchor would be a smart addition...


Completely agree. If you know your anchoring area, then it is perfectly reasonable to carry the best anchor for that bottom. I'd still recommend carrying both a dandforth and a plow. You should always carry at least two anchors anyway.

Although I now use our Rocna for 90% of our anchoring, I still carry a large Danforth, a stern-mounted Bruce and a storm-sized Fortress. I did get rid of my old CQR though.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I cant remember the bruce is the 3 fingered anchor right? edit yeah bruce

...well whatever the case we had this style and used it on our cruise of central america wthout incident except once!

in panama where windshifts at the canal on the pacific side are infamous...often micro bursts too

but here is the sad and funny story

we did our usual anchoring routine and it was set nice and dandy...muddy bottom sandish, normal about 100 feet of chain in 15 feet cause of the big tides...

only to have a call that our boat was dragging while we were shopping for supplies downtown

some fellow cruisers rigged a spare anchor and we scrammed...

got to the boat and started to haul up the anchor(no windlass I was young jajaja)

only to find a PERFECTLY sized rock that fit the fingers just perfect...MADNESS!

so my point is without diving you never REALLY know if you are set or not..I was lucky others are not...

the anchor grabbed the mud that had a rock suctioned to it...after a while the mud loses suction as the mass is really the rock which weighed maybe 20 lbs...not enough to hold you in the shifting waters and tides of panama...


so lesson learned...I probably would of been better with a simple danforth as it wouldnt have the issue of grabbing a perfectly sized rock like that...

sooooooooooooooooooooo hindsight 20/20 and learning from this you can see that 1 anchor simply cant do it all

ever

cheers


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

MikeOReilly said:


> For normal (not storm) conditions I only use two anchors when setting a bahamian-moor, or when I'm trying to limit swing room. The only other time I've used two is when I was preparing for a fast-approaching frontal storm, and there I used two on the same rode, spaced apart (using one as a type of kellet). I'm totally with KS on this. If you think you need two anchors for normal anchoring, then you need a bigger (or better/more appropriate) anchor.
> 
> Funny, my worst dragging scenario was also in the North Channel. Here I was on my big danforth. Just set -> tight anchorage -> sudden thunderstorm ... mayhem .
> 
> ...


thats a nice variety...love it!


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> As for someone else's surprise about my lack of anchoring experience while chartering


Just to clarify TF, I was not surprised or trying to be judgemental. It was just a thought expressed in a way as not to be overly assumptive.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

christian.hess said:


> so lesson learned...I probably would of been better with a simple danforth as it wouldnt have the issue of grabbing a perfectly sized rock like that...
> 
> sooooooooooooooooooooo hindsight 20/20 and learning from this you can see that 1 anchor simply cant do it all


Years ago I had a Danforth come up with a rock perfectly stuck between the shaft and the flukes. It dragged too.

The problem with anchoring, as with a lot of cruising is that the exam is often taken before the lesson is given.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> The problem with anchoring, as with a lot of cruising is that the exam is often taken before the lesson is given.


Great line! 

MedSailor


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

killarney_sailor said:


> Years ago I had a Danforth come up with a rock perfectly stuck between the shaft and the flukes. It dragged too.
> 
> The problem with anchoring, as with a lot of cruising is that the exam is often taken before the lesson is given.


jajaja TOO FUNNY!

I guess our points have been stressed enough then!


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

TakeFive said:


> ...I re-checked my 13 pounder last night, and the flukes aren't too terribly dull. They're not razor-sharp like a Fortress, but they're not terrible either. I'm going to try it out this weekend and see how it grabs on the mud bottoms near home...For a 25 foot boat, another big advantage of the Danforth anchors is storage, since they store flat. I can fit two 8 pounders or one 13 pounder in my anchor locker, and ample space to store the others in my aft berth. And we have no windlass, roller, or any other heavy tackle, so dropping and pulling up by hand is required.


FYI, this weekend I moved the 13 pound Danforth to the bow anchor locker and beefed up the chain. Our anchoring test went great. We were in 3 knots of current, with 15kt wind pushing us the same direction as the current. That rode went out so fast I couldn't stop it. But as soon as it hit the bitter end, the line tensioned and the boat stopped immediately. I had a really solid DR position from a telephone pole in front of a distant building on shore, and the boat did not move at all for an hour. (Also confirmed this with an anchor alarm on my cell phone and track recording on my GPS.)

Someone suggested that a Danforth is OK as long as you stay within its limitations. I generally like that line of thinking. I'll avoid anchoring in situations where there's any chance of large shift of wind or current (instead I'll head to a marina and get a good shower), and look for mud bottoms with no vegetatation (which is pretty common where I sail).

Longer term I'll probably get a hefty modern plow type, but first I'll need to figure out how to mount it on my pulpit, since having it stowed down below could rip upholstry and would be absolutely no good for emergency use.


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## davekrista (Mar 3, 2014)

azguy said:


> I'm shocked everyone keeps enabling these two when they have no idea what they are doing, with a baby on-board no less.
> 
> The single most important thing when anchoring, IMHO, is the bottom you are on and scope and they clearly had no idea about either
> 
> ...


Well again, we are learning. You learned your way and we will learn our way. Some learn better by doing and some like you learn by instruction. We're not alcoholics that are being enabled, we are looking for info and tips on how to do it better. I was on the boat so how does that mean I would have let it run aground? We were drifting yes, but I'm not stupid enough to wait until its to late to start the motor and go to deeper water or to call dave and the kids back to the boat... Again YOU forget what it is like to be new and learning. My kids are ALWAYS safe!!!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Keep on learning and I hope you stick around and contribute more. This is a great place to ask questions and share experiences. It is, however, the crazy internet, so you'll endure a swipe or two along the way. To defend the short fused (and we all can be from time to time), there are at least enough posters with legitimate beginner questions as there are trolls that are just trying to provoke a flare up. Sometimes it's hard to distinguish. Good luck.


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## theonecalledtom (Jan 2, 2008)

I'll admit to having skipped half this thread, so I may just be repeating.

Though we haven't anchored much on our current boat we used to spend a lot of weekends and the occasional week at anchor. One tip we picked up at some point was to let the anchor settle before attempting to backdown on the anchor. I don't remember dragging after this but typically we'd be anchoring with good holding. The advice was to drop the hook clean up the boat while keeping an eye on position, then back down.

Another good tip was to put the anchor down while drifting backwards so that the initial angle of the hook is more likely to be correct and the rode is nicely laid out.

Never had to set in 3 knots of current though, worst was about 2 and we dragged a fair distance before setting (this was early on in our anchoring experience).


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## devilbones (Jun 3, 2014)

Lots of good info here.


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## theonecalledtom (Jan 2, 2008)

Skip Novak's Storm Sailing Part 10: Anchoring | Yachting World

Or do what Skip does.

This is part 10 of a really nice series on sailing around the Cape Horn area. Yachting World also has an awesome series with Pip Hare (and some Brian Thompson) about general sailing trim and sailing shorthanded.


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