# Rebuild 1980 Volvo MD11C Diesel Auxiliary



## ntheyer (Aug 18, 2006)

I have my engine pulled and at home now and half disassembled (from the previous owner). I am rebuilding the engine, but frankly, am not really sure how to go about doing it. I have the parts on order, but wonder, what do I actually have to do? Just replace parts? I know there is some machining to be done somewhere... what gets machined? How do I remove the rust buildup from the intake manifold cooling galleries? Where should I begin? I will attach some pictures.... Thanks.


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## Blue Eagle (Jun 29, 2006)

*Where to start??*

Hi,

Firstly: Don't lose heart. It's a process. Daunting at first, but not impossible with a little patience, reading, guidance and common-sense.

The first step to take while you take stock is to contact Volvo and ask for the workshop manual (not the "operator's manual") for the engine. If you get stuck, I have a copy of a copy that I can mail you if needs be - in fact it may be even more use scanned, but I'd rather not "fracture" Volvo's copyright if I don't need to. On the Volvo Penta website http://www.volvo.com/VolvoPenta/Global/en-gb you'll find the operator's manual for all of their engines, plus the workshop manuals for some (albeit not this one).

Secondly, *Please, PLEASE* put a bit of cling film (saran wrap to you) over the injector pump feed pipes and secure with a rubber band... if you get dirt in there, you won't find out until the engine's rebuilt and reinstalled, and you'll then regret it for a looooooong time (!) - diesel fuel injectors absolutely _detest_ dirt.

Third; You need to take lots more pictures from lots of angles. Save and label them. Your engine looks like it's in much better condition than mine was, but having got it out and halfway dismantled, you'd be very unwise IMHO not to strip it right the way down and clean the grease and grime off every last inch of it before repainting (I always use hammerite - it's the best) and reassembling.

Fourth: having dismantled everything else, you need to check the camshaft and crankshaft end-float, before removing both and eyeballing the camshaft bearings for ugly signs of wear (discoloured or copper-looking patches especially). If the camshaft bearings need replacing, you'll need to get a reputable machine shop to do it as the shells have to be drifted or pulled into place, then reamed out to size.

Fifth: Please do take the crank shaft to a good machine shop to be measured and re-fitted as necessary - as outlined in my other post. Not to do so at this point would really be asking for the big ends or mains to develop a knock shortly after refitting - meaning you'd have to pull the whole thing out and start again - Gaaah!

The good news is: if the shop comes back and tell you that the journals are fine and within spec. you can dispense with the re-grinding, and if you handled the bearing shells sympathetically, you might even get away without replacing the shells either.

Do be careful to mark the big-end bearing caps and the con-rods before you take them off the crankshaft. I use a centre-punch and tap one dot on the side of each piece for cylinder No.1 (nearest the flywheel) and 2 on each for No.2 cylinder (work through the inspection hatches to accomplish this easily). This not only tells you which bearing cap and con-rod belongs together, but also which big-end journal they belong on and which way round they go on that journal. This is especially important if you're not replacing the bearing shells as each set will have worn to its own journal, and must go back on the same journal that it came off.

More later.... do get that manual!

Best,

Blue Eagle


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## ntheyer (Aug 18, 2006)

Thanks for the great replies. I have the manual and all of the parts ordered. Should be here on Monday. The plan is to take the enigne apart completely and then repaint and rebuild. I already bought every seal, gasket, bearing etc. that can be replaced. Basically, if it wears, it's getting replaced or machined. Just like you said, I don't want to reinstall and then have any issues. I expect it to be 'as new' and to run for twenty years without issue when I'm done. I'm sure the shop manual will give me plenty to read once I get it. I'll let you know as things progress.


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## Blue Eagle (Jun 29, 2006)

Cool!

While you're doing the rebuild, can you do me a favour please? Could you note down the make and model number of the starter motor for me?

I'm pretty sure mine's a bosch, but the number had corroded off - and although I had it rebuilt locally, it's a bit... wheezy.


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## ntheyer (Aug 18, 2006)

Ok, I'm making some progress. My question is how did you secure the engine to remove the flywheel nut? Is is reverse thread also? My starter is pretty rusty, but I'll get the make and model info off of it tomorrow.

Thanks.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

I can't imagine what all that is going to cost.

Anyway, the flywheel nut will come off readily with an air-operated impact driver. Then you will need a puller to get the flywheel off the crank. It can jump off with some force, so hands and face clear!

You will need a torque wrench for the re-assembly also.

Make sure the new exhaust gaskets go on the right way. In the semi-darkness, I got one of them the wrong way round. 

The exhaust manifold is brittle.... be careful with it. I wasn't careful enough.

I have never done a plain bearing crank rebuild. Blue Eagle seems to know it well.

It looks like you had difficulty getting the nuts off those two cylinder head studs. I never could. I had to buy a new stud.

Get all that muck off it. Vacuum cleaner, then scrub, scrub.

You are going to need a micrometers to check your bumping clearances. The manual will explain.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

the piston pin bearings on the ends of the con rods look bad, you'll have to have a machine shop replace (press) those and fit the pistons too. How do the pistons look? are the skirts scored? Do you know, or have you checked the bores on the cyls? are they out of round? if so, how much? You may have to have them bored. if thats the case, then you're looking at oversize pistons/rings....
you'll have to have the machine shop put in the new cam bearings and while you're there have them grind and balance the crank, and have them fit the crank bearings and thrust washers, while they're right there, have them put in the front and rear main seals. You don't have, nor do you want to buy any of that equipment.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

after a second look at the piston pin bearings, you really do need to take the crank in. they are badly worn and the pin side of the conn rod is the one with less to do. (range of movement is much lower than on the crank side)

IMHO, you shouldn't have bought con and main & cam bearings yet, the cam & crank really should be "turned" and balanced. If they remove any material from the crank, you'll be needing undersize bearings.


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## Blue Eagle (Jun 29, 2006)

ntheyer said:


> how did you secure the engine to remove the flywheel nut? Is is reverse thread also?


Hi, - securing the engine: I lashed it against one of the support pillars in my boat club's covered garage - it's about 18" square, so limited chance of its falling over.

I'd be interested to hear if one of those air-driven impact wrenches manages to remove your nut - I had to cut a flat off mine (carefully so's not to damage the thread on the crankshaft) and then club it with a four-pound hammer and cold chisel to get it to shift. My 200lbs on the end of a 4-foot lever wasn't enough torque to shift it!

The thread is normal, ie: right-handed - undo anticlockwise.

cheers,

Blue Eagle


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## Blue Eagle (Jun 29, 2006)

cardiacpaul said:


> you'll have to have the machine shop put in the new cam bearings


 Agreed - if you need them - use a dial-test indicator on the back of the cams through the top of the block, and try to rock the shaft up and down to see how much play you have - or get the machine shop to check for you. 


cardiacpaul said:


> and while you're there have them grind and balance the crank, and have them fit the crank bearings and thrust washers, while they're right there, have them put in the front and rear main seals. You don't have, nor do you want to buy any of that equipment.


Agree with the grinding - you shouldn't need rebalancing as the journals should have worn evenly, but see what they think - beware some folks will try to sell you a rolls royce when you went to buy a moped - so do make sure in your own mind that the work needs done - this is a marine diesel engine remember, not a highly stressed sportscar engine.

Do ask them to press the front (No.1) and back (No.3) main bearing shells home into the front cover plate and engine block respectively for you - once you know what size you need. I drifted mine in with a wooden block and a rubber-headed mallet - but I've had lots of practice and I was very careful how I did it - I don't recommend this route to anyone with a machine-shop alternative - or a long piece of threaded bar and some big bicycle washers to pull them in. If you elect to do it yourself however, you have to fit both halves of the bearing shell at the same time, line the locating tangs up with the detents in the casting, and oil the backs of the shells to help them slide home. They must go in absolutely perpendicular to the casting however, otherwise they'll get jammed - and you won't be able to remove them without damaging them.

The centre bearing on the MD11C goes on in two parts, so no pressing needed - do torque the bolts on the big cast bearing cage up to spec though. The thrust washers go either side of the rear engine block casting which holds No.3 main bearing, so again, no need to get the shop to fit them (but do be careful to get them the right way round (notched faces outwards, bearing the thrust) and to engage the tangs in the locating detents, when you re-fit the crankshaft.

Do ask them to press home the crankshaft main seal if you're not confident using the wood-block method I describe above (you'll need a nice flat piece of 1x4 or 2x4 hardwood, about 6 inches long) - the rear end of course opens to the bellhousing and the rubber transmisson tripod and seals agains the gearbox, so there's no "git" seal to worry about - on the engine block itself.

cheers,

B E


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## Blue Eagle (Jun 29, 2006)

cardiacpaul said:


> after a second look at the piston pin bearings, you really do need to take the crank in. they are badly worn and the pin side of the conn rod is the one with less to do. (range of movement is much lower than on the crank side)
> 
> IMHO, you shouldn't have bought con and main & cam bearings yet, the cam & crank really should be "turned" and balanced. If they remove any material from the crank, you'll be needing undersize bearings.


Can't re-check the pics as they're not showing just now - but while it's all in pieces, by all means check and measure everything!

re: purchase of shells - couldn't agree more. I fell into that trap, and Volvo won't restock them either!


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Now... listen to this.

Volvo will not sell you piston oversizes if you need a re-bore. You have to buy three piston and liner kits, each (in 1997) cost £300.... close to $500 back then. That will be $1500 to you Sir, at least it was for me, from Volvo UK. Volvo seem to think it's a good idea to disturb the liners too, apparently.

The pistons are by Mahle, so go to the Mahle website, and make some phone calls. Mahle will sell you oversizes, and they will know the engine. Each piston was, back in 1997, about £75.... $130. Then you have to re-bore it.... perhaps $50 per bore.

I still caution you... strongly.... cost the entire job before you buy any more spare parts.

If you are having to grind the crank, your con-rod small ends are likely to be worn too.

I still think it will be beyond half the cost of a new engine, and there are some superb Japanese engines available, new, with warranty, and zero hours on them, used in fork-lifts, reasonable parts prices, lighter....

Cost it fully before you go any further and make sure you check what's needed and not somebody trying to meet the quote when they have quoted too low.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Ntheyer...

Can you take a picture of the mating surfaces of the exhaust maniifold and post it on here. There is something else to watch for.... it may need skimmed. Also a picture (tunnel style) of the bores would be useful and the pistons too.

Check also your valve guide clearances. You would be advised to re-cut the valve seats too. 

Were there compression readings taken before you started? They would be useful.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

I guess what we're all trying to say here is rebuilding IS a major undertaking. I'm not saying it can't be done, heck, I've rebuilt more small block chevys and chrysler 392's, even a couple of JD Diesels when I was a kid than I care to admit.(on the garage floor, Lynyrd Skynyrd upsetting the neighbors @ 2AM). I know what I can and can't do. dial indicators with a mag mount, micrometers, torque wrenches (the bar and pointer ones are useless, get the "clicker" type) cyl hones, and ring compressers are not something I want to invest in for a one time rebuild (Don't forget prussian blue and plastiguage) 

While the diesel is not a race car engine, it is...
a very efficent high compression engine that is subject to high heat, high pressure, low tolerance and is not forgiving if things aren't "just so". You haven't lived till you've heard a rod come out the side of a block.(along with nasty bits of hot iron). 

Valve jobs/guides, cam bearings, checking the crank/cam and cyl bores, fitting rings (aligning the end gaps, compressing the rings and tapping with the wooden hammer into the cyls) are jobs best left to the machine shop. 

Some other things...
Are your heads cracked... Are you sure? are you going to have them magnafluxed? I'm not trying to dissuade you, just letting you know what you're in for. 
Yes, I've thrown a set of rods and mains into an engine to increase weak oil pressure without having the crank turned and everything was just fine. But I'd hate to have you do a rebuild, put the engine back in, fire it up and have the rear main leak because of a .0001 indentation on the mating surface of the crank, or a .0003 front to back on the crank due to a thrust washer not being seated.


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## ntheyer (Aug 18, 2006)

Thanks for all of the great info. I have a compressor and impact wrench so I just have to get the right socket.

In terms of pistons, they look dirty, but I bought new ones in any case. I also bought new cylinder liners. All of my bearings are returnable, so If I need oversize, I will get them.

Now I just need to find a machine shop that know what they're doing with this engine....

I never pulled the cylinders and heads off myself. That was done by the previous owner and then left open for about a year in that state... REALLY DUMB move. That's basically why I am doing this. I am assuming moisture got into the engine and then the ensuing rust had a chance to set in. Basically I want to do it all now, and then install the engine and be confident in it for another 20 years. I definitely am very diligent about maintenance, so once it's together and running well, I will keep it that way.

Thanks.


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## ntheyer (Aug 18, 2006)




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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Ntheyer...

What did the liners and pistons cost you in the US?


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## ntheyer (Aug 18, 2006)

The heads are not cracked. All honing etc. will be done by an experienced machine shop that is used to working on this engine. Basically I am just doing assembly/disassembly.. All of the precison work will be done by the shop.

I have a clicker torque wrench.

Don't have the compression numbers from before since I bought it with the heads and cylinders off.


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## ntheyer (Aug 18, 2006)

The cylinder liner kits cost me $490 each including piston and liner.


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## ntheyer (Aug 18, 2006)

Major stumbling block.... Just brought the whole deal to the machine shop this am.... he says the heads are probably shot due to worn valve seats. He is going to magnaflux and clean them up to determine conclusively, but all bets show they are toast.... Heads are NLA but we found some for $1500 EACH!!!! $3000 USD for two bloody heads!!! This will most likely shoot the whole project down.... Any ideas on where I can get heads for a decent price or what engine I can go to that will use the same mounting position and work with a Volvo Saildrive 110S?

The starter is so rusted on the body that there are only about three digits readable... sorry, I just can't get the numbers off of it.

Help!!!


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

I just got a used MS tranmission from a fella here in Western Washington who is parting out an MD3 ( in case they share the same heads as your MD11)

I have an MD17C in my boat and after reading all the horror stories on the availability of parts and their cost, I've pretty much made up my mind that there is a re-power in my future and it won't be another Volvo. 


Ray


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

They will be the same, and as long as they are not worn the same, it might be ok.

Valve seats can be re-cut, but you are now running into the issues I faced a while back. Check all you need, and add it all up. I expect it will be well beyond the cost of a new unit.

The first and second generation MD series engines are good, and well built, but the cost of parts off the clock.

It wears very thin indeed. When I cracked the manifold, the engine was 20 years old. that's "old" according to Volvo.

I was absolutely furious at the time, and vowed never to get caught like that again. I sourced a manifold, used, for £350, (new £1300 from Volvo) and after skimming it, it worked.

At the time, a brand new manifoild for a Lister-Petter was £185.... one seventh of the cost.

Wait until you blow a starter motor.... then it's really fun.... you will slit your wrists. On a long haul you need to carry two of them anyway.


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## ntheyer (Aug 18, 2006)

I know, these part prices are unbelievable. It makes no sense. No one will buy these motors once they realize the part prices...

Personally I am already looking into what a good repower will be that will work with my 110 Saildrive...

I am still in shock from these prices...

Any ideas on a good repower package that will work?


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## Blue Eagle (Jun 29, 2006)

Hey there,

This is why I said "find a machine shop you can trust" - take closeup photos of those valve seats for me, the whole idea of valve seats being too far gone to recover smacks of BS to me. I've recovered a lot, and you can always get inserts put in if they're really beggared. these guys sound like they can't be bothered to do the work.

Cheers,

Blue Eagle


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## ntheyer (Aug 18, 2006)

As you can hopefully see, the injector hole is already being encroached upon. There is water rust damage in the form of pitting in the top of the combustion chamber. Looks like water came in through the exhaust valve and progressively weakend the metal.

The guy at the machine shop was extremely helpful and willing to do whatever I wanted. He just felt that with his 17 years experience, there is not enough to work with here to get it to work well. That is my concern, I don't want to do some patch job.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

The problem is that it is unlikely that there will be a unit that will drop straight in. I approached Beta Marine UK (Kubota based units), with an eye on the 37.5 hp or the 40 hp unit. We have to be very careful what gearbox ratio to select, or we'd end up with am overgeared food whisk or undergeared.

I had hoped that we could buy some engine legs that would allow it to drop straight in, but I don't remember being able to. Also, the Beta turns the prop the other way, so I'd need a new prop, or go everywhere in reverse.

It would not defeat us, having to modify the engine beds. I understand that one idea is to make a wooden template with the same spacing as the Kubota legs, with a wooden "L" shape to simulate the final drive offset. Mount the Kubota engine mounts to the template, and work with that to get the first estimate of the alignment. It is certainly lighter than lugging the unit in the engine room.

I share your sentiment about Volvo.... indeed I have tried to warn every man and his dog about it ever since, and that was 10 years ago. It shocked me just as much.

Whatever you do, do not replace the Volvo with a dedictated marine diesel. Choose an engine that has multiple uses elsewhere.... a Kubota perhaps, or a Peugeot, or perhaps a Ford-based unit... or similar. Spare parts are likely to be easy to find then, and affordable, when the time comes. 

I have always liked the sound of the Kubota.... you find them everywhere, but the Peugeot is a superb diesel also. There must be some top flight American stuff too, but I know little of them.


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## ntheyer (Aug 18, 2006)

I found a completely rebuilt replacement MD11C for $2800 that is as new and has always been fresh water cooled. It also has a warranty. I think this is the way I'll go so I can use the 110S Volvo saildrive that's in the boat and then just budget for a complete repower in five to ten years...

We'll see. Hopefully I can return my parts!


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Ntheyer...

A lesson learned. Top flight enginres, virtually unaffordable when they get older and things go wrong. That's about it, really.

Watch that the raw freshwater cooling does not freeze.

I have been there, and am trying to fix it.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

buy the engine, return the parts... crank on this one needs work, cam is shot, and heads, (shrugging shoulders) i dunno... one of the guides looks bad though.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Has the one with the warranty been inspected, I wonder?

Get a compression meter on it my friend.

Look at it closely, beneath the expected re-spray.


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## ntheyer (Aug 18, 2006)

What kind of compression numbers are good for a diesel?

I have an idea with gasoline, but not diesel.

Thanks,

Nicholas


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Very much higher than a gasoline engine, at the diesel compression ratio of close to 17:1.

I don't know, really. 

It's worth a call to a Volvo dealer, I suppose. It will be a different compression meter too, as it has to spear right down to the bottom of the injector sleeve.

Check both of them, and they should be close to one another.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

specs say 17.5 to 1 comp. ratio, 284-355 lbs @ starter motor speed
Perhaps its worthwhile to have the motor "bench tested", a local dyno shop may be able to point you in a direction.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

If it gets reasonable (and fairly equal) compression, and starts when stone cold, and doesn't burn too much oil, and doesn't smoke like a train, and the oil level does not rise and turn grey (water ingress).... it might be OK.

Keep an eye also on the gearbox final drive seal.... 120x100x12 mm. Watch it closely..... no drips, forward or reverse. It's another weakness. Not difficult to fix and no need to ask V***o for the seal, but it's a weakness. If it ever lets go, give me a shout. It was a long fix for me, but easy to fix, once I figured out how to do it. Keep a close, and permanent eye on it.


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## Blue Eagle (Jun 29, 2006)

I'd say that those heads might be just about recoverable - with a valve-seat cutter, but the pistons look very cokey and the main bearings look like they've been running dry or full of grit they're so discoloured. I couldn't access the pics of my heads online on www.swainsons.com/gallery for comparison, but I'll have a goosey later on - just for my own interest more than anything else.

In any event your alternate - the freshwater - cooled jobber sounds like a much more sensible bet. Do make sure you can return those parts though before you buy it!

best,

Matt


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## ntheyer (Aug 18, 2006)

Thanks for the post... I was able to return all of the parts.. no restocking fee. The people over at www.marinepartsexpress.com have been excellent to work with. Matt Chandler was the rep I worked with. I have no personal stake in the company, but am just very satisfied with their service. Prices were good too (for Volvo parts).

I have given the rebuilder a deposit already for the rebuilt Volvo. I will be picking it up net week Wednesday. I'll let you know how it looks when I have it.

Thanks for everyone's help and input.

The rebuilder is a Marina so at least I'll also have a path for recourse if something is wrong with it. After speaking with him a few times, I do feel comfortable that it's going to be very good.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

I wish you luck with it.

They really are an engine to avoid.

And I've got one.

What a contradiction.


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## parris (Sep 17, 2006)

In 2004 I replaced my old MD 11 C Volvo penta with a Sole Diesel 25 HP (a Mitsubishi, marinised by Sole Diesel ).
The new engine works with my old 110S drive as they (Sole Diesel) produce and supply a special adaptor.
I have a problem now , but I believe it is not related with the Sole - Volvo marriage: the couppler on the engine's side has broken, so there is no transmission.
I think that the damage happened because of the old rubber joint (between the engine's and S drive's coupplers) ageing and destruction. So I am also looking into a good pair of coupplers.


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