# Do You Pole out your Jib?



## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

I have stripped my mast for painting including removing a track on the mast for spin pole connection. I never use a spin pole and have never poled out a jib. Should I keep it off or is polling out a jib good practice to learn? Otherwise I will not re-install the track on the mast.


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

It's YOUR boat, do what YOU want to do with it.

We used our whisker pole (with a lift) for many years (many times for racing, others for long distance downwind cruising). Haven't used it in over five years since. Even if one of the jaws wasn't frozen shut, I still wouldn't hassle with it, I learned how to sail w&w and/or gybe downwind. Good techniques to learn.

Your boat, your choice.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Stu Jackson said:


> It's YOUR boat, do what YOU want to do with it.
> 
> We used our whisker pole (with a lift) for many years (many times for racing, others for long distance downwind cruising). Haven't used it in over five years since. Even if one of the jaws wasn't frozen shut, I still wouldn't hassle with it, I learned how to sail w&w and/or gybe downwind. Good techniques to learn.
> 
> Your boat, your choice.


I like your advice. I don't race, and have sailed 5 years with this boat without ever using a pole (don't use spiniker). It came with a whisker pole and a spiniker pole but I never use them. I am trying to make everything as simple as possible and eliminate all but the most necessary rigging and hardware. Less stuff to maintain and to break.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> I never use a spin pole and have never poled out a jib. Should I keep it off or is polling out a jib good practice to learn?


OK, this is some kind of trick question, right?

;-)

I would suggest that if you actually intend to _Go Places_ with that boat, the use of a downwind pole is pretty much essential...

Amazing how few cruisers seem to make use of them, however... Last 2 boats I've brought back from the islands, I'm not sure either pole had _EVER_ been used... I had to cobble together fore and after guys using freakin' _dock lines..._

On this V-42, we stuck with this setup from abeam of Anegada, till about halfway up Exuma Sound, absolutely fantastic sailing...

I say put the track back on, and learn how to sail DDW...

;-)


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If the boat was equipped with a proper mast fitting and carrying a proper whisker pole - yes; especially with a larger lapper or genoa. In the Finger Lakes the wakes of larger powerboats and the fickle winds will drive you nuts when the boat's motion collapsed the jib in light air. 

It can depend on the headsail inventory, hull-shape, displacement, and how susceptible it is to wave and wake action.

Have a catboat now so the choice is moot. Simple pleasures. ;-)


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

I would reinstall it. If not, what will you fill the holes with? Also, you may one day decide to use it, and even if not, it could contribute to resale value.

MedSailor


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

casey1999 said:


> I like your advice. I don't race, and have sailed 5 years with this boat without ever using a pole (don't use spiniker). It came with a whisker pole and a spiniker pole but I never use them. I am trying to make everything as simple as possible and eliminate all but the most necessary rigging and hardware. Less stuff to maintain and to break.


Your post is unclear but I assume you have a spinnaker. If so, my advice is to be sure to re-mount the pole track on the mast, so you (or a subsequent owner) CAN use the spinnaker.

For any kind of distance cruising, the spinnaker is an excellent and valuable sail. In our New England area, I'd say using the spinnaker increases your summer cruising time from some 60% sailing to 90% sailing, i.e. you get about twice as much sailing in, and less time under power. And I assume you have a symmetrical spinnaker which is IMHO better than a cruising chute, once you learn to manage it. We have only a cruising chute on our current boat, and I am often frustrated by the inability to sail deep with it, and the frequency with which it wraps itself, when sailed deep. I would not go to the expense of switching to a symmetrical spinnaker, but we may try a removable bowsprit.

Your spinnaker is a real asset, and if you enjoy sailing your boat versus powering, its worth learning to use it.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

I agree with MedSailor. There's really no maintenance involved with the track, just reinstall it. Store the poles at home if you never use them, or sell them. New Poles can easily run a boat buck or three.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Spinnaker pole I do without, but I use our whisker pole a lot. Anytime we're off the wind with rolly seas in light airs, sometimes even medium airs, I'll put up the pole. Makes a huge difference in sail shape, in speed, plus it can reduce wear on a the foresail.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> OK, this is some kind of trick question, right?
> 
> ;-)
> 
> ...


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Tempest said:


> I agree with MedSailor. There's really no maintenance involved with the track, just reinstall it. Store the poles at home if you never use them, or sell them. New Poles can easily run a boat buck or three.


The only maintenance I see is dealing with the corrosion under the track. Just removing the 30 or so stainless machine screws that were tapped into the mast was a big job.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> I would reinstall it. If not, what will you fill the holes with? Also, you may one day decide to use it, and even if not, it could contribute to resale value.
> 
> MedSailor


Filling the holes. Good question. I was thinking just paint over the tapped holes, or maybe filling in with West Epoxy. West Systems even have a flexible epoxy in a tube made for thinks like mast that may have some movement. I have some other holes on the mast that will need to be filled- so some type epoxy is the plan.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

sailingfool said:


> Your post is unclear but I assume you have a spinnaker. If so, my advice is to be sure to re-mount the pole track on the mast, so you (or a subsequent owner) CAN use the spinnaker.
> 
> For any kind of distance cruising, the spinnaker is an excellent and valuable sail. In our New England area, I'd say using the spinnaker increases your summer cruising time from some 60% sailing to 90% sailing, i.e. you get about twice as much sailing in, and less time under power. And I assume you have a symmetrical spinnaker which is IMHO better than a cruising chute, once you learn to manage it. We have only a cruising chute on our current boat, and I am often frustrated by the inability to sail deep with it, and the frequency with which it wraps itself, when sailed deep. I would not go to the expense of switching to a symmetrical spinnaker, but we may try a removable bowsprit.
> 
> Your spinnaker is a real asset, and if you enjoy sailing your boat versus powering, its worth learning to use it.


I don't have a spinnaker. The boat used to be raced years ago and has all the fittings, but sails are long gone. The only head sail I have is about a 110% jib on a reefing fuler. Winds here are generally 25 knots or more so that is the only sail I use, and have it reefed in most cases.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Casey in my opinion reinstall it even if you never use it it will add to the saleability of the boat when it comes to the time to sell her. Also won't really cost you any to keep I on the mast.


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

I vote for re-installing it. It's a standard piece of gear and others will find it useful even if you don't. I myself use my whisker pole to sail wing-on-wing just about very time I'm heading downwind. It's not complicated at all (by contrast, I have yet to use my spinnaker in the 3 years I've owned the boat).

If you were hoping for enthusiastic support for leaving the track off, it's starting to look like you may be disappointed!


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

scratchee said:


> I vote for re-installing it. It's a standard piece of gear and others will find it useful even if you don't. I myself use my whisker pole to sail wing-on-wing just about very time I'm heading downwind. It's not complicated at all (by contrast, I have yet to use my spinnaker in the 3 years I've owned the boat).
> 
> If you were hoping for enthusiastic support for leaving the track off, it's starting to look like you may be disappointed!


Roger- the pole track will be remounted on the mast.
Regards


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> I never sail DDW. I always angle off. The ride is much more stable, less rolling and to tell you the truth, faster. Yea I might cover more distance, but the faster speed means I arrive at the same time with more comfort and less wear and tear on the rig and sails due to the less rolling of the boat. Plus a lot less gear to worry about. Interesting in all the ocean passages I have sailed- never used a pole including Atlantic, Pacific, Carribean, Gulf of Mexico and Tasman Sea. I am sure there are times- maybe light air and flat sea where a pole might be useful for me, but trying to do away with the rarely used equipment.


Well, you seem pretty convinced downwind poles have little utility, so I'm not sure why you asked the question to begin with...

;-)

In my experience, sailing DDW can often be by far the preferred way to go... In the instance I pictured above, the reason we were sailing that route to begin with, was the development of Tropical Storm Ana up off the Carolinas, which was sending a sizeable cross-swell from the NE... Had we been tacking downwind instead, sailing high enough on starboard tack to keep the jib filled would have been a brutal ride, and much more punishing to the boat... Had the same situation when I left Nantucket for Nova Scotia last July immediately the passage of Hurricane Arthur... Sailing across the Gulf of Maine and on out to Cape Breton was the perfect prescription given the confused sea state - once again, hardening up on starboard would have been very uncomfortable and hard on the boat, indeed...

Not to mention, _SLOWER_... You sail a hull similar to mine, and the V-42 mentioned earlier... If you're making hull speed or close to it DDW, there's very little chance your VMG will improve by gybing downwind while sailing angles high enough to keep the jib filled and drawing...

If you've never sailed DDW with a stable wing & wing setup, you don't realize how easy it can be on the boat and rig... Far less punishing than repeatedly gybing towards your destination, and you've eliminated the most damaging situation of all when sailing in big seas on the quarter - namely, that incredible shock that can come when your headsail momentarily spills its air in a roll, or the blanketing effect of the main, and is then re-filled with a _BANG_ that can cause the rig and entire boat to shudder violently... That can't be good, over the long haul... ;-)

When you're out cruising and going places, seems to me there are many scenarios where it's pretty tough to avoid sailing DDW... If you'd prefer to gybe downwind through a route like the Old Bahama Channel, for instance, repeatedly crossing that very busy and constricted shipping route throughout a squally night, you're a far braver man than I ;-)










Or, if you'd choose to zig-zag up through the Strait of Belle Isle when the prevailing SW breeze is blowing, and packing that narrow funnel with fog, well... have fun with that... ;-)










Still, despite all the incredible DDW offshore passages I've had, I have to say the completely benign day on the ICW pictured below remains one of my favorites, whenever I think of the value of whisker poles, and the pure pleasure that can come from sailing wing & wing...

I'd had a fast, but a cold and fairly rough passage from Beaufort down to Florida, and elected to come back inside at Ponce Inlet in order to be able to catch a NY Giants NFL conference championship game, as much as anything else ;-)

The following morning, I was blessed with a light, but consistent N breeze blowing straight down the Indian River after leaving Titusville. and that arrow straight channel towards Vero... Sliding along all day long at an easy 4.5 - 5 knots, it was just one of those perfect days, I was finally in Florida and not swaddled in fleece or down for the first time since leaving home, right up there with about as relaxing a day of sailing as I've ever had... I was passed by several other boats, all motoring, their exhaust wafting back into their cockpits, courtesy of the following breeze...

It's really not that much trouble to put that skinny little thing out there, I remain mystified why more 'sailors' don't bother to do so, more often...

;-)


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## DonScribner (Jan 9, 2011)

Our boat was born during the years of huge headsails. We have 150 % or better genoa. In light air the sail is so heavy it collapses on itself, loosing shape, making a racket. We bought a telescopic whisker pole to help out and it works well.


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

Coupla nice pictures in this thread...I think wing-on-wing looks pretty cool in addition to making my downwind sail easier.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I love wing-and-wing, it looks wicked cool.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, you seem pretty convinced downwind poles have little utility, so I'm not sure why you asked the question to begin with...
> 
> ;-)
> 
> ...


You state:
"When you're out cruising and going places, seems to me there are many scenarios where it's pretty tough to avoid sailing DDW... If you'd prefer to gybe downwind through a route like the Old Bahama Channel, for instance, repeatedly crossing that very busy and constricted shipping route throughout a squally night, you're a far braver man than I ;-)"

I would, and have gone on the outside when delivering a boat from FL to the Bahamas. Much safer and better winds. Less obstacles and shipping traffic- Just my opinion, as you have yours. I have no problem sailing down wind with no pole, my head sail is only 110 % and drives the boat to hull speed even in light winds. I single hand mostly, or when I do have crew, they are not that experienced, so I like to keep the deck work to a minimum. And as far as jibing, I always do a controlled jibe and never shutter the rig (I am always well reefed which helps). In any case to each his/her own. I can sail down wind- just don't like the wallowing and would rather have the boat on her toes, and if I need to do a crew overboard pick-up, rather not have a pole out with all the other rigging to deal with.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg- I don't see no spinnaker poles...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> You state:
> "When you're out cruising and going places, seems to me there are many scenarios where it's pretty tough to avoid sailing DDW... If you'd prefer to gybe downwind through a route like the Old Bahama Channel, for instance, repeatedly crossing that very busy and constricted shipping route throughout a squally night, you're a far braver man than I ;-)"
> 
> I would, and have gone on the outside when delivering a boat from FL to the Bahamas. Much safer and better winds. Less obstacles and shipping traffic- Just my opinion, as you have yours.


And if you wanted to cruise the north coast of Cuba? Or, if that delivery had been from San Juan or Luperon to, say, Mobile AL, or Clear Lake, TX?



casey1999 said:


> I have no problem sailing down wind with no pole, my head sail is only 110 % and drives the boat to hull speed even in light winds.


Hmmm, sounds like a _VERY_ special boat... ;-)



casey1999 said:


> ...and if I need to do a crew overboard pick-up, rather not have a pole out with all the other rigging to deal with.


Do you avoid preventing the main for that reason, as well?

Actually, there is no reason a pole should necessarily present a problem in such a situation... If it's set up with a fore guy, and after guy, just furl the jib, leave the pole be, it's not doing any harm...

As you say, to each his own, but I'd never want to go cruising without a downwind pole... Gives you plenty of options, and the ability to get a bit creative, or think a bit outside of the box... A poled out genoa coupled with a Code 0 can make for a very effective downwind light air combo, for instance...










On the other hand, for those who will already making hull speed with a 110% jib in those conditions, _Nevermind..._

;-)



casey1999 said:


> JonEisberg- I don't see no spinnaker poles...


Yeah, a VOR 65 has a lot of relevance to the sort of sailing most of us do, alright... Those boats are essentially _NEVER_ sailed at angles where the apparent wind is far enough aft that a headsail could be poled out, as your photo clearly illustrates...


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

casey1999 said:


> JonEisberg- I don't see no spinnaker poles...


You're comparing apples and oranges. Ultra light racers that plane easily are faster when broad reaching downwind. They can accelerate easily on a slight increase in apparent wind. Heavier cruisers don't gain enough speed by broad reaching to compensate for the extra distance sailed by broad reaching. They make better vmg by sailing wing and wing, nearly DDW. Whether you gain anything by broad reaching downwind depends on the boat's design.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Sailormon6 said:


> You're comparing apples and oranges. Ultra light racers that plane easily are faster when broad reaching downwind. They can accelerate easily on a slight increase in apparent wind. Heavier cruisers don't gain enough speed by broad reaching to compensate for the extra distance sailed by broad reaching. They make better vmg by sailing wing and wing, nearly DDW. Whether you gain anything by broad reaching downwind depends on the boat's design.


Point made vo65 are primarily down wind sleds and got no spin poles. Spin poles becoming old school. Better ways through better sails make going down wind more efficient than hanging out a lot of poles looking like a fishing trawler, but if that is the way you want to sail, live and let live.


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

If you go long distances, short-handed, then a pole make sense...My wife and I have run with a pole and a preventer on the main for 3 and 4 days at a time and never touched the sails. Best run ever was through the Old Bahama Channel...Sometimes it is just easier to point where you are going!


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

^We had a poled out headsail and tuck in the main for 15 days on the way to the Marquesas, hardly touched a sheet either.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> Point made *vo65 are primarily down wind sleds and got no spin poles.* Spin poles becoming old school. Better ways through better sails make going down wind more efficient than hanging out a lot of poles looking like a fishing trawler, but if that is the way you want to sail, live and let live.


Actually, no... Especially with the addition of legs to Abu Dhabi and China, the VOR is no longer quite as much about running around the planet thru the Southern Ocean as it has historically been... You're confusing the general direction the boats are being sailed around the world, with the Apparent Wind Angle they are typically being sailed at, due to the extraordinary surfing speeds they are capable of attaining... While I might be sailing my little displacement slug with my jib poled out to an AWA of 160 in 15 knots of breeze, for example, a Volvo 65 sailing the identical heading might be close to beam reaching...

In the entire sail inventory for the VOR 65, the A3 set on a roller furler is the ONLY dedicated downwind sail, designed to be carried at broad reaching angles of 120 AWA and above...

But I thought we were talking about the usefullness of poling out headsails using whisker poles on boats like yours and mine and designed with high aspect mains and large overlapping jibs almost 50 years ago, no?

;-)

Evans Starzinger & Beth Leonard have some good stuff re downwind poles... They open with this comment:

_"A pole is very useful (almost essential) for efficient downwind sailing."_

http://www.bethandevans.com/sails.htm#46.

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/JibBridle.pdf

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/Downwindsail.pdf


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

my experience has been almost exactly the same as aeventry and others that have sailed the trades and ddw or within range of ddw routes

pole out, furler to clinch it in place(if you have one, we did not and just used a blade or small jib for most winds up to 25) topping lift only in most cases...the shape of sail while not perfect is better than a flapping sail and will prolong life

I recomend a whisker pole for those that say they WILL NEVER USE A SPINNAKER, those that say so are usually afraid of running a full symetrical and associated parts and rigging...so a whisker pole that is big enough on a genny or drifter is about as close as you can get to that performance using OLD SCHOOL tech

so please understand that there are many ways to skin a cat here, however those refferencing vor65 boats are not understanding the basics of sailing...its like comparing f1 cars to your hyundai in the drive way...

just sayin

happy sailing!


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

DDW with a poled out jib is reasonable ..... on mast head boats. 
However, If you have a fractional rig, poling out the 'handkerchief' isnt going to gain you much and you'll still be getting a heavy helm due to the (torque) moment of the dissimilar areas between jib/main. Youre really going to need a spinn on a fractional for going DDW to maintain helm balance; or, needing to reef the main with a poled out handkerchief in order to 'balance' the helm. 

If you look at the polar diagrams for almost 'any' boat, the max speed (VMG) occurs at about 45° off of DDW, or at about 125° ... and at that angle, the A-spinn is 'supreme'.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

casey1999 said:


> The only maintenance I see is dealing with the corrosion under the track. Just removing the 30 or so stainless machine screws that were tapped into the mast was a big job.


Yes, and now that you've completed the paint job it's unlikely that you'd ever have to revisit it again. So, I'd reinstall it. But, If you never plan on selling the boat then fine leave it off. Your boat, your rules.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Tempest said:


> Yes, and now that you've completed the paint job it's unlikely that you'd ever have to revisit it again. So, I'd reinstall it. But, If you never plan on selling the boat then fine leave it off. Your boat, your rules.


OK, here's another reason for keeping the track, even if you don't use a pole...

While clipped to a fixed tether when working at the mast, you can easily sdjust the height depending on whether you're standing, or on your knees...

Yeah, OK, so that one's a bit of a stretch, perhaps...

;-)










;


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

For the observant, that Volvo racer actually has a pole out. Note his bowsprit. The sail on it is a code 0 asymmetric on a top-down furler. When you travel at speeds of 20kts+ you drive the apparent wind forward and into the range of an asymmetric. If you have ever done a crowded mark rounding with a bunch of J boats – those jousting poles can be quite hazardous, much more so than the “trawler” style spinnaker/whisker pole.

Just last week I went sailing with a friend that was trying out a double headsail configuration that he was planning to use on the Single Handed Transpac. Very trippy. The “windward” jib was on the whisker pole and the leeward was sheeted trough a block at the end of the boom. Got an amazing amount of speed from two 110’s albeit, it was really hard to see underneath them.

I pole out my jib when the downwind run is too short for a kite, or I’m being lazy, or the wind range is above my kites parameters (North gives me a 20kt max window). When it is blowing like snot I use a blade which keeps collapsing (high clew) when going down wind if I don’t use a pole. Something that helps out a lot for single or double handing is using an afterguy on the pole. That keeps the pole from banging into the headstay and you can set the pole first, then gybe the jib into it. Very quick and easy.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

I am by no means an expert on sails or sailing, as some of you are, but there are other ways to sail down wind and just trying to learn:

From:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinnaker

Asymmetric spinnakers

Asymmetrical spinnaker resembling large jibs and flown from spinnaker poles are not a new idea and date back to at least the 19th Century. However in the 1980s a new concept appeared, starting with the Sydney Harbour 18ft Skiff fleet.

Since the 1960s many faster sailing craft, starting with catamaran classes, had discovered that it is faster to sail downwind on a series of broad reaches with efficient airflow across the sail rather than directly downwind with the sails stalled. This technique had developed to the extent that in bar conversation at the end of one season Andrew Buckland observed that the 18s had sailed all season without pulling the spinnaker pole back from the forestay and that all the systems could be simplified by eliminating the pole and setting the spinnaker from a fixed (but often retractable) bowsprit. The concept quickly evolved to a sail with a loose luff much more like a conventional spinnaker than the old jib style asymmetric sails. Julian Bethwaite was the first to rig and sail a boat with one the next season, followed shortly by Andrew Buckland. The first modern offshore sailboats to incorporate a retractable bow sprit and an asymmetric spinnaker were J/Boats [1]- specifically, the J/105. [2]. Today, J/Boats have built the world's largest fleets of asymmetric spinnaker sailboats- over 3,000 today.

The concept has spread rapidly through the sailing world. The tack of the sail may be attached at the bow like a genoa but is frequently mounted on a bowsprit, often a retracting one. If the spinnaker is mounted to a special bowsprit, it is often possible to fly the spinnaker and the jib at the same time; if not, then the spinnaker will be shadowed by the jib, and the jib should be furled when the spinnaker is in use.

The asymmetric has two sheets, very much like a jib, but is not attached to the forestay along the length of the luff, but only at the corners. Unlike a symmetric spinnaker, the asymmetric does not require a spinnaker pole, since it is fixed to the bow or bowsprit.[3] The asymmetric is very easy to gybe since it only requires releasing one sheet and pulling in the other one, passing the sail in front of the forestay. Asymmetrics are less suited to sailing directly downwind than spinnakers, and so instead the boat will often sail a zig-zag course downwind, gybing at the corners. An asymmetric spinnaker is particularly effective on fast planing dinghies as their speed generates an apparent wind on the bow allowing them to sail more directly downwind. It is also particularly useful in cruising yachts in the form of a cruising spinnaker or cruising chute, where the ease of handling is important. Various types of asymmetrics exist, and a common nomenclature classifies them by code from 0 to 6. Codes 1, 3, and 5 are reaching sails, and codes 2, 4, and 6 are running sails; the code 0 is a hybrid of genoa and spinnaker, designed to work like a genoa but classified under racing rules as a spinnaker.
Code 0 The code 0 asymmetric is a tight reaching sail, the most upwind capable of the asymmetrics. The luff is as straight as possible, and the sail is flatter than other spinnakers. Due to the flatness of the code 0, it is usually made with a wire luff for strength, and of a heavier, less stretchy fabric than normal for a spinnaker. Due to the tight luff and flat cut, the code 0 can be fitted for roller furling.
Code 1 The code 1 is a light air reaching sail, where the apparent wind angles at low speeds has a significant effect to create angles of less than 90 degrees.
Code 2 The code 2 is a medium air running sail, used for apparent wind angles over 90 degrees.
Code 3 The code 3 is a medium air reaching sail, used for apparent wind angles near 90 degrees.
Code 4 The code 4 is a heavy air running sail, used in the heaviest winds normally expected.
Code 5 The code 5 is a heavy air reaching sail, used in the heaviest winds normally expected.
Code 6 The code 6 is a storm sail, for running in storm conditions.

Spinnakers for cruising boats are starting to be patterned after the roller furling code 0 racing spinnakers, as they provide the easiest handling. North Sails, for example, offers three gennaker sails, based on the racing code 0 asymmetrics, with different sizes and cambers for varying angles and wind speeds. Other manufacturers offer similar cruising code 0 designs under different names, such as the screecher and reacher for upwind and downwind use respectively.

Cruising chutes[edit]

A cruising chute is a form of asymmetric spinnaker used by cruising yachts and designed for easy use when short handed. Two sheets are used, with the tack line eased by a foot or so before gybing. Alternatively only one sheet is used, with the sail snuffed before a gybe.[4]

Rigging the asymmetric spinnaker[edit]

Like the symmetric, the Asymmetrical spinnaker is often stored in a turtle, with the corners on top for easy access. While a symmetric spinnaker is flown with a "guy" and a "sheet", an asymmetric spinnaker is flown with a tackline and a "sheet." The tack attaches to the bow or (often retractable) bowsprit, and the two sheets attach to the clew. The head of the sail is attached to the spinnaker halyard, which is used to raise the sail. The sheets are passed to either side of the forestay, attached to the clew; they may be passed forward of the luff of the asymmetric, or aft of the luff of the asymmetric, between the tack line and the forestay. The sheet on the downwind (lee) side of the hull is used to trim the sail, and the opposite sheet is left slack. Often a tack line is used at leading edge to provide adjustable tension on the luff of the spinnaker. To keep the tack near the centerline of the boat, it may be attached to the forestay with a sliding collar (often riding over the furled jib on parrel beads, tacker or similar device) adjustable with a down haul, or tack line . This allows the tack to slide up and down the forestay to adjust the luff tension.[5] On racing boats, the tack of the asymmetric is often rigged to a retractable bowsprit, which increases the foretriangle area and prevents interference with the jib. As this trend becomes more popular in racing boats, it may result in similar adaptations to cruising boats as well.[6]

Jibing with the asymmetric is much less complex than the symmetric, due to the lack of the spinnaker pole. Much like a jib, all that is required is to change sheets. However, since the asymmetric still flies in front of the forestay, the operation is reversed. The loaded sheet is slackened, and the opposite (lazy)sheet is pulled in, which allows the sail to pass around in front of the forestay, and then be sheeted in on the new lee side of the boat.

Retrieving the asymmetric is similar to the process for the symmetric. The sheets are released, allowing the sail to collapse to the front of the boat. The foot of the sail is then gathered, and the halyard released and the head of the sail lowered, where it is packed into the turtle.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Tempest said:


> Yes, and now that you've completed the paint job it's unlikely that you'd ever have to revisit it again. So, I'd reinstall it. But, If you never plan on selling the boat then fine leave it off. Your boat, your rules.


I will probably never sell my S&S34. She can do anything I can ever ask. Cheap to maintain, simple systems, bullet proof. I would not mind having a bigger boat maybe in the 40 foot range, but then just more expense, more maintenance, and more boat to handle- so it just ain't gonna happen. Already discussed with my wife, when I die just leave me in the boat and sink her at sea- cheap funeral.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I don't use poles on my current boat (catamaran), but I have on other boats. I do have tackle (adjustable bridle for chute, barber hauler for genoa) that serves much the same purpose and consider them necessary. Not to sail, but to sail well, which after all, is the point, even for most cruisers (I hope?).

Often when sail single-handed or wanting a lazy day, using a pole is far from my head. No chute either. On the other hand...

* If we really wanted simple we would buy power boats or skip the sails altogether. We don't because we like both the challenge and the principle of balancing the wind against foils to go where we please.

* A spinnaker often makes the difference between sailing and motoring. A light air spinnaker reach is a fine pleasure you are missing. 

* A spinnaker is only complicated with the wind is up. The strings are simple, with just a little practice.

* Yes, I can sail W & W without a pole, but it is less stable.

* Resale value will very likely be higher for a fully equipped boat with pole tracks and related hardware. Most buyers place value on extra strings.

I simply can't imagine not having a chute. Sailing without it is somehow... less.


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## Plumbean (Dec 17, 2009)

Casey:

I am pretty sure that DDW with the pole out will be faster than gybing back and forth. You might go out and experiment next time you have the opportunity. With the smaller headsail perhaps it won't make as much of a difference to have the pole out, but I find it extremely helpful when I run my 135% headsail with a pole, also on an S&S 34. You will want a pole lift if you don't have one set up. Not as critical, but a foreguy is also useful.

Also, you may surprise yourself one day and pick up a spinnaker. I find it a lot of fun to fly.

Cheers,

Plumbean


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Plumbean said:


> Casey:
> 
> I am pretty sure that DDW with the pole out will be faster than gybing back and forth. You might go out and experiment next time you have the opportunity. With the smaller headsail perhaps it won't make as much of a difference to have the pole out, but I find it extremely helpful when I run my 135% headsail with a pole, also on an S&S 34. You will want a pole lift if you don't have one set up. Not as critical, but a foreguy is also useful.
> 
> ...


I have tried sailing DDW with main and jib wing and wing. The wind and waves were such that I could sail that way without flocking the sails. Even so the kids and wife start feeling sea sick due to the wallowing motion and the boat is slow. If I angle up into the wind some, get the sails back on the same side and sheet in, I get a nice heel, some good speed, and the boat becomes rock steady, no rolling, also much easier to steer. And although I cover move distance, get to the destination at the same time. Couple years ago, a light weight trimaran about the same length as me, ran DDW, and I went slightly up wind, we were trying to see who was faster. We both had similar beat up sails, but I ended up beating him in a point to point distance of about 5 miles (I actually covered more distance due to the one Jibe I need to pull), if he had gone up wind (as I had done)- I am sure he would have won.

In any case, for a good down wind sail, I think I would look into the Code type sail- on a furler (continuous line maybe) and no spin poles. That is a long way off, I got enough "projects" to take care of for the monment.


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

RichH said:


> DDW with a poled out jib is reasonable ..... on mast head boats.
> However, If you have a fractional rig, poling out the 'handkerchief' isnt going to gain you much and you'll still be getting a heavy helm due to the (torque) moment of the dissimilar areas between jib/main. Youre really going to need a spinn on a fractional for going DDW to maintain helm balance; or, needing to reef the main with a poled out handkerchief in order to 'balance' the helm.
> 
> If you look at the polar diagrams for almost 'any' boat, the max speed (VMG) occurs at about 45° off of DDW, or at about 125° ... and at that angle, the A-spinn is 'supreme'.


Not to mention the swept back spreaders on some more modern rigs make it preferable to sail hotter angles downwind. But that's just opening up another can of worms :eek


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## mf70 (Nov 6, 2014)

Yes, but on a ketch, the pole is the mizzen boom. Wing and wing and wing. Sweet.

On my old Bristol 26, the whisker pole got a regular workout.

The basic reason for using one is: it's pretty.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> OK, here's another reason for keeping the track, even if you don't use a pole...
> 
> While clipped to a fixed tether when working at the mast, you can easily sdjust the height depending on whether you're standing, or on your knees...
> 
> ...


I'm stealing this Idea! I put two of these on my genoa tracks and never thought to put on on the mast track!! duh! That will prove to be very useful. Thanks


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

Tempest said:


> I'm stealing this Idea! I put two of these on my genoa tracks and never thought to put on on the mast track!! duh! That will prove to be very useful. Thanks


You should reconsider that idea. You seldom see a horn cleat mounted on the forward edge of the mast because it is very susceptible to snagging the jib sheets when you tack. You can clip on to a spinnaker pole mast ring, and the risk of it snagging the jib sheets will be much less.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Sailormon6 said:


> You should reconsider that idea. You seldom see a horn cleat mounted on the forward edge of the mast because it is very susceptible to snagging the jib sheets when you tack. You can clip on to a spinnaker pole mast ring, and the risk of it snagging the jib sheets will be much less.


Thanks Sailormon, it would be easy enough to test. I can remove one of the cleats from my genoa track and let it live on the mast track for a bit and see if it causes any trouble, before I invest in another.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Look at this little baby running down wind at 1:20 into vid. I don't see no poles- Shipman says boat designed for single handing:





Here is the polar for the Shipman 80:

http://www.shipman.dk/Shipman-80-specifications#


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

weinie said:


> Not to mention the swept back spreaders on some more modern rigs make it preferable to sail hotter angles downwind. But that's just opening up another can of worms :eek


There is a surprising amount of myth in that statement. I've sailed cats with swept back rigs forever, and unless it is a very high performance cat--not just a fast cruisers--DDW is generally faster VMG. The thing is, once you start pushing hull speed, you just can't gain enough power on a reach to go 140% faster.

On my current cat, the fastest way down wind is about 155 true with the chute, but if I'm not using the chute W&W is faster VMG. If the course is in between, I just jibe in and out of W&W.

As for rolling, cats are smooth as a rug DDW; not a factor to me.


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

pdqaltair said:


> There is a surprising amount of myth in that statement. I've sailed cats with swept back rigs forever, and unless it is a very high performance cat--not just a fast cruisers--DDW is generally faster VMG. The thing is, once you start pushing hull speed, you just can't gain enough power on a reach to go 140% faster.
> 
> On my current cat, the fastest way down wind is about 155 true with the chute, but if I'm not using the chute W&W is faster VMG. If the course is in between, I just jibe in and out of W&W.
> 
> As for rolling, cats are smooth as a rug DDW; not a factor to me.


You are presenting less cross-sectional area to the wind than you would if the sail was completely perpendicular to the wind. Is there some magic happening on cats that I don't know about? Or do they simply travel less efficiently on a reach?


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Casey, just like the Volvo boat, this boat also has a bowsprit. Bowsprits are poles that get the Asym out in front of the boat in order to drive deeper angles. A side benefit is the ability to fly a much larger kite. That said, the boat in the vid is still driving to 160-5 degrees AWA (going back to my Aerodyne days). He is blasting along in the high teens but he is a much different boat than your S&S 34. Remove your spinnaker gear if you like. You should be able to sell it to someone who appreciates it at a swap meet. I, for one, would keep it, but then again, I see the value in it.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

GeorgeB said:


> Casey, just like the Volvo boat, this boat also has a bowsprit. Bowsprits are poles that get the Asym out in front of the boat in order to drive deeper angles. A side benefit is the ability to fly a much larger kite. That said, the boat in the vid is still driving to 160-5 degrees AWA (going back to my Aerodyne days). He is blasting along in the high teens but he is a much different boat than your S&S 34. Remove your spinnaker gear if you like. You should be able to sell it to someone who appreciates it at a swap meet. I, for one, would keep it, but then again, I see the value in it.


Agree but a bowsprit does no need to be shifted around the deck of a boat (maybe extended and retracted, but no "handling"). And the Asym does not have to have the bowsprit to work on a cruising boat such as most sailors may have. My spinnaker gear is close to 40 years old and is not of much value to anyone- mostly worn out, except for the track on the mast. The spin deck winches I use for other purposes. Now imagine this 80 footer trying to run a spinnaker with poles... Agree the boat is much different than and S&S34 but something can be learned and maybe even used on a cruising boat.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Casey, without the sprit you need to sail lot hotter angles. Check out the sailmaker’s polars. Without a pole you are steering something like 150 AWA. The replacement cost for your pole, track, and car is somewhere around $2k (more so, I’d imagine in Hawaii). About the only thing that goes out on this gear is the spring loaded jaws and it has been my experience that most of the problems have to do with built up salt and grime clogging it up. Asyms are really convenient and I love to fly mine. But for simplicity and ease of use, nothing beats a whisker pole.

As you are interested in spinnakers, the wiki article glossed over a couple of points. Spinnakers (symmetric and Asymmetric) are free flying sails attached to the boat at their corners and fly ahead and outside of the boat’s rigging. Code sails have a wire or rope in their luff but are still attached to the boat in three places. They are a real specialty sail and even a Code 0 is no substitute for an A2. An Asymmetric for your boat will set you back about $3k. The top-down furler about $2k (I have one on order). The torque rope on the furler has to be straight so you either have to remove your pulpit or buy a bowsprit (about $1k). All of a sudden, the whisker pole that you already own is beginning to look like a bargin!


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

weinie said:


> You are presenting less cross-sectional area to the wind than you would if the sail was completely perpendicular to the wind. Is there some magic happening on cats that I don't know about? Or do they simply travel less efficiently on a reach?


Nope, no magic. Once boats hit hull speed, they just can't go faster, so wing and wing is faster VMG. Remember, I'm talking Velocity Made Good down wind, not actual speed. This is more true on may cruiseing cats, surprisingly, because they do not have the blazingspeed of a beach cat, but they still have rigging that restricts the boom from going far out. Once the wind gets aft of the beam, the main stalls. You can ease this transition with a loose sheet, but the boat still crawls on a deep reach. This is NOT as true with the chute, which tolerates deep angles better.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

GeorgeB said:


> That said, *the boat in the vid is still driving to 160-5 degrees AWA* (going back to my Aerodyne days). He is blasting along in the high teens but he is a much different boat than your S&S 34.


Not according to that gigantic Cayman Islands ensign at the stern quarter, it isn't... 

In many of those shots, the apparent wind actually appears to be forward of the beam... As much as I'd like to believe 45 year old boats like mine, and Casey's, are capable of moving the AWA that far forward while sailing deep, it ain't gonna happen...

Certainly not while maintaining any semblance of control, at least...

;-)


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

pdqaltair said:


> Nope, no magic. Once boats hit hull speed, they just can't go faster[/IMG]


For the typical heavy cruiser and overloaded cat, perhaps true. But performance oriented boats, like this one, don't have much of a hull speed burden. The typical cruising routes don't seem to provide for hull speed anyway. I do not ever use a pole. It is much nicer sailing just slightly higher. The main is not against the rig. The course is only 1/cos longer or about 5 percent. The increase in speed more than makes up for it. Having a gybing 'attitude' is more conducive to either hunting or avoiding squalls and other weather changes.

It's just simpler and better for me.

As for the unused holes in an aluminum mast: epoxy with a structural filler, sanded and painted is my way.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Sailormon6 said:


> You should reconsider that idea. You seldom see a horn cleat mounted on the forward edge of the mast because it is very susceptible to snagging the jib sheets when you tack. You can clip on to a spinnaker pole mast ring, and the risk of it snagging the jib sheets will be much less.


That's an excellent piece of advice...

While I've yet to ever have a sheet snag on mine, the fact that I sail a slutter rig with an additional baby stay just forward of the mast might have something to do with that...

;-)


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

aloof said:


> For the typical heavy cruiser and overloaded cat, perhaps true.


Take a close look at the speed polar for a 34' boat and tell that it's an overloaded, slow boat. Better yet, show me a speed polar for anything less than a sport boat that shows a different trend.

On my last cat I would NEVER sail DDW, but it also had a 24 knot top end. With the chute we tacked down wind, not jibe!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

GeorgeB said:


> Asyms are really convenient and I love to fly mine. But for simplicity and ease of use, nothing beats a whisker pole.


That mirrors my feeling, as well...

Casey might want to at least _TRY_ sailing with a headsail poled out, before jumping on the asym bandwagon... If they were the answer to every cruising sailor's dream, you'd think you might actually _SEE_ a cruiser flying one from time to time, no?

;-)

Sure, I enjoy flying mine whenever the opportunity presents itself... But on an offshore passage, on a boat being sailed solo or shorthanded, a poled out headsail has a lot going for it...

Not many cruisers are willing to take the chance of carrying a spinnaker thru the night, for instance, or allowing a windvane to steer a boat flying a chute (Sailomat, for instance, in no uncertain terms recommends against doing so) For sailing downwind in the tropics, with the prevalence of overnight squalls, few configurations can top the security of a pole secured with a fore guy and after guy, that can simply be left in place after the sail is furled during a squall...

A couple of years ago I brought this H-R 43 back to the Chesapeake from Trinidad... It was early in June, the first tropical storm of the season was already brewing in the NW Caribbean, so out route was gonna be sticking close to potential bail out points, and up towards the Bahamas for the first week of the trip...










We passed thru the Mona Passage in early evening, not the most fortuitous timing... True to form, we were beset all night long by the thunderstorms that typically brew over Puerto Rico, and slide off the west... We had squally weather for the next few days, but we carried this setup most of the way to Florida, where we hunkered down in Ft Pierce for a couple of days while TS Andrea passed over the FL peninsula just to the north, and ran up the coast... Despite the unstable weather, whenever we were overtaken by a squall, it was simply a matter of furling the jib until it passed, then unfurling it to proceed... Easy peasy, the pole itself remained untouched for days... (Good thing, for it was a massive aluminum piece of crap that weighed a TON ;-))

Upon leaving Ft Pierce in the wake of Andrea, same deal... We hooked up with the axis of the Stream off Canaveral, and sailed wing & wing probably 70% of the way to Hatteras, pulling into Annapolis 98 hours after our departure...

I can only chuckle at the notion of sailing DDW in the axis of the Stream, seeing readings of 10, 11, 12 knots SOG with your bow pointed towards Frying Pan, and deciding now would be a good time to start _gybing downwind_ towards your next waypoint...

;-)


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Jon, right you are! I was looking at the boat angle on the waves which is actually TWA, not AWA. It makes sense that the apparent wind is driven that far forward (to a beam reach) given that boat's speed as evidenced by the rooster tail and wake. I haven't experienced those kinds of speeds since my ULDB racing days.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Not many cruisers are willing to take the chance of carrying a spinnaker thru the night, for instance, or allowing a windvane to steer a boat flying a chute (Sailomat, for instance, in no uncertain terms recommends against doing so)


Yes, wing and wing has a lot going for it. With a cat we have the beam to skip the pole, if you have a barber hauler on the rail.

Regarding AP and the chute, I've found it works a lot better in relatively steady conditions if I over sheet just a little and then set the AP on magnetic rather than wind. The apparent wind just moves around too much. I will also add that cats require less steering down wind and I would generally douse the chute at 15 knots anyway, and certainly at night or in squally conditions.


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## jnorten (Aug 18, 2009)

Yes--at least on the boat for which I crew.

Why? I can confirm much of what has been cited by other posters--

In very light air, it prevents the jib from flogging and chafing against the rigging.

In what I'll call light air--but enough air to fill the sails reliably--it really helps our jib maintain a nice full shape. We use an honest jib, not a big genoa. When poled out in these conditions, it reminds me of a mini-spinnaker...and I do believe it helps our boast speed. A spinnaker isn't an option for us while racing, we race in the JAM class.

Some nights, we don't feel like messing with it, so we don't. More times than not, on anything from a very broad reach to a run, we pole it out. It's not that tough...footwork on the deck is the trickiest thing.

I know this isn't technical, but it's what we've done for the 10 years I've crewed on this boat.


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## Plumbean (Dec 17, 2009)

casey1999 said:


> Agree but a bowsprit does no need to be shifted around the deck of a boat (maybe extended and retracted, but no "handling"). And the Asym does not have to have the bowsprit to work on a cruising boat such as most sailors may have. My spinnaker gear is close to 40 years old and is not of much value to anyone- mostly worn out, except for the track on the mast. The spin deck winches I use for other purposes. Now imagine this 80 footer trying to run a spinnaker with poles... Agree the boat is much different than and S&S34 but something can be learned and maybe even used on a cruising boat.


If you can store the pole on the mast, that gets it out of the way very nicely. Mine lives on the mast at all times other than (i) when it is in use or (ii) when racing.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Here is the polar for the Shipman 80:

Shipman 80 specifications - Shipman

Opening up the brochure shows a better pic:

http://www.shipman.dk/Upload/Catalogues/Shipman_80.pdf

So what is your opinion of down wind performance, not that I am in the market.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

GeorgeB said:


> Casey, just like the Volvo boat, this boat also has a bowsprit. Bowsprits are poles that get the Asym out in front of the boat in order to drive deeper angles. A side benefit is the ability to fly a much larger kite. That said, the boat in the vid is still driving to 160-5 degrees AWA (going back to my Aerodyne days). He is blasting along in the high teens but he is a much different boat than your S&S 34. Remove your spinnaker gear if you like. You should be able to sell it to someone who appreciates it at a swap meet. I, for one, would keep it, but then again, I see the value in it.


Ok, plan is to keep it all, track stays on the mast and will try to refurbish the poles. Do some poling out of the jib and see how she sails.

Talking poles, what would this be used for?-see pic. It is about 5 feet long and 2-1/2 inch diameter. Seems to short to be useful, but it came with the boat, must have purpose. Even my dog is curious.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

TransPac 2015
Down wind sailing Hawaiian Style:
One-Two win for Aussie crews in the 2015 Transpac Race | Sailing News


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Casey, just saw your photo. What does the fitting look like on the dog end? Did you have a couple of small rings mounted on the lower sides of the mast? Do your shrouds go out to the edge of the deck? Most likely what you have is a "reaching strut". What this allows is for you to "headstay reach" at about 95 - 100* AWA. When headstay reaching your spinnaker pole is all the way forward, just off the headstay. And the strut is off to the windward side to hold the afterguy away from the shrouds. This gives you Asymmetric like performance. We don't usually use it when we race the Cal 40 as the wind is usually up enough that we get better performance off of our #1 and we don't run the risk of rounding up and wiping out. (you ought to see the boys in the A-kites wipe out!)


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Yes GeorgeB I think you are correct. The "dog end" has a connection similar to what a spin pole would have- the "C" with a sliding pin. And the mast does have two pad eyes where this pole could be mounted, and the poles length is about 1/2 the total beam width of the boat, with the shroud chain plates out the outer edge of the hull- thanks for solving the mystery.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

yup, reaching strut...nice description george

not unsimilar at all in concept to what those vor guys do for their standing rigging to get better angles so the rigging can be pushed to bigger limits in high latitude/winds sailing.

anyways

try your pole on a jib and post a pic!

ive always been a fan of the s and s 34

I beleive jesse martins book goes into detail on his sail selection and configurations for his round the world trip...also pink lady

just a thought

ps. I have always had the best luck learning about my current boat from real world past owners experience...for example I learned that the islander 36 is no upwind beast against trades(most boats will suffer here) like it is around the buoys in san francisco simply because it doesnt have enough main power, and the large furling genoas most of us use when cruising is about as inefficient going upwind in 25 knots as a bed sheet! I learned this by reading a solo sailors non stop account of his round the world trip on his same aged islander 36 as I have...he got very very poor daily averages here, worse than I have done on a ketch! 10 feet smaller! just sayin its not the boat in most cases but the sailor and his tuning that make the difference in performance...most boats if sailed well will offer respectable performance in all wind conditions...

so learn your boat peeps...from past owners then tune to your liking...there is much to learn here...its not all greyish out there


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> yup, reaching strut...nice description george
> 
> not unsimilar at all in concept to what those vor guys do for their standing rigging to get better angles so the rigging can be pushed to bigger limits in high latitude/winds sailing.
> 
> ...


Aloha Christian,
I do have all the books (Jon Sanders, Jesse Martin, Jessica Watson) on the single hand circumnavigation of S&S34. Also have the dvd by Jesse Martin- tried to get a copy of Jessica Watson's , but that is on an AU/NZ format and cannot get a copy that I can play. As I remember, the books talk a lot about reefing and sail size, but not much about when to pole out the jib. I do not think any of the sailors every flew a spinnaker, although Jessica Watson did have (if I remember correctly) a code zero and did have a bowsprit installed (see pic). I do not recall Jessica ever mentioning in her book use of the code zero sail or poles. Jon Sanders did use a pole on his jib (see pic) during his double non-stop single hand circumnavigation. Incidentally, the Aeries wind vane Jon Sanders used came off my S&S34- sold to him by the original owner. I took a quick look at Jesse Martin's DVD Lionheart, and see he polled the jib out quite a bit in the video, but it seem like it was mostly during very light winds and small sea state.

Back to my original post " Do you pole out your jib?". When would one poll out a jib? Does one poll out a jib when going directly down wind, and if so why, when down wind is the slowest point of sail? Agree there may be cases on inland or restrained water ways where you must stay a specific course, but what I am considering is open ocean. Does one poll out a jib when not going directly down wind, and for what reasons or conditions would one do that?

I am thinking something along the lines of making things simple and getting at least close to maximum performance with use of minimal equipment- Kind of like how performance cars used to use a big displacement and heavy V8s but now are going to things like small reliable turbo 4 cylinder or a twin turbo V6.
Regards


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> Back to my original post " Do you pole out your jib?". When would one poll out a jib? Does one poll out a jib when going directly down wind, and if so why, when down wind is the slowest point of sail?


You've really got to get the notion out of your skull that sailing DDW is necessarily "the slowest point of sail" to a downwind destination... And, that boats like a Volvo 65, or Rio 100 are remotely comparable to the sort of boats you and I sail...

Don't take my word for it, listen to the late Magnus Olsson, one of the most legendary VOR skippers who ever lived...



> On a displacement cruising boat, the quickest way to travel from point A to point B is still a straight line. Cruisers sometimes get caught up in sailing gybing angles, thinking the extra speed will make up for the extra distance sailed. It's (usually) not the case.
> 
> Magnus Olsson, the legendary Volvo Ocean Race sailor, crewed aboard a Baltic 64 in last year's ARC rally. I met him in Stockholm, Sweden, in August and he explained to me the vast difference between cruising and racing boats.
> 
> ...


And, if you still don't believe him, go watch the Non-Spinnaker Class racing a downwind leg in your local Wednesday night race series, and see what they're doing... Better yet, enter your own boat, and try reaching off and gybing to the leeward mark DDW, while everyone else is headed straight for the mark with their headsails poled out, and let us know how it goes...

;-)


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> You've really got to get the notion out of your skull that sailing DDW is necessarily "the slowest point of sail" to a downwind destination... And, that boats like a Volvo 65, or Rio 100 are remotely comparable to the sort of boats you and I sail...
> 
> Don't take my word for it, listen to the late Magnus Olsson, one of the most legendary VOR skippers who ever lived...
> 
> ...


Very interesting article- and at the end:

"Parasailors are becoming increasingly popular on cruising boats as well. I've seen them on everything from Swans and Oysters in the ARC, to a Westsail 32 on the Chesapeake. Marc Elbet, a French sailor we met on the ARC last year, finally caved and is planning on buying one for his third Atlantic crossing in two years. Elbet sails a solent rigged OVNI 471, and has previously sailed downwind wing-on-wing. But he hates spinnaker poles, and is intrigued by the Parasailor's ability to sail downwind without one."

Parasailor - ISTEC - The Downwind Company

"There are several ways of rigging the Parasailor. While it is perfectly fine to use the spinnaker pole just like with a regular spinnaker, it is not necessary to do that. The spreading moment of the wing suffices to con*ve*niently use the Parasailor without a pole."

Jon, you also need to remember I am basically sailing single handed, and dealing with a lot of rigging, poles, and sails may not be the safest thing to do when the winds are 25- 30 knots and the wind swell at 10 feet breaking over the deck. In those conditions I would rather sail a little up angle from DDW. And from your knowledgeable data base do you have an answer: "Does one poll out a jib when not going directly down wind, and for what reasons or conditions would one do that?"

And from you posted quote, I see the word "Usually"- interesting:
On a displacement cruising boat, the quickest way to travel from point A to point B is still a straight line. Cruisers sometimes get caught up in sailing gybing angles, thinking the extra speed will make up for the extra distance sailed. It's (usually) not the case.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Jon- 
This is more in line with what I was looking for- notice the chart at the bottom of the link:
Sail Combinations


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## Loki9 (Jun 15, 2011)

Casey, you are over thinking this. You pole the jib out when it needs it and conditions allow. If you aren't comfortable going forward to deal with rigging in whatever conditions, then don't. The jib "needs" a pole whenever your boat will sail better with a pole rigged. If the jib is constantly filling and collapsing, due to deep sailing angles and/or ocean swells, then polling it out will often help. Racers know that poling out the jib and heading directly at the mark is often the fastest way to get there. This might be for DDW legs, but at times a poll can help broad reaching too. For example, say you have a big #1 up and want to broad reach. If you don't have an outboard genoa track or an easy way to set up rail sheeting, a pole can be used to improve jib shape. 

You could sail your whole life never using a pole and never miss it, unless you race or simply want to sail as fast as you can.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

yup simple stuff caset

on small boats a whisker pole needs no lines, no lifts or foreguys nothing

I used a bamboo or similar one on my old h28 ketch that fit into the clew, then I sheeted in my sheet till the pressure against the wind held everything in place

I still remember to this day how my crew managed to snap the damn thing at night cause he was too lazy to change courses and or de rig the pole that weighed maybe 10lbs jajajaja

anywhoo there isnt anything complicated about poling out a jib or genoa even on mid sized cruisers...out in the ocean...I like to keep it simple

going straight is one of them! jaja

my best configuration ddw on most cruising boats out there to this day is dual headsails on the same stay...yes you will roll but you get used to it...it can be really fast if you leave them there as the winds increase

my best performance to date on any boat has been this sort of scenario...on the oldest and slowest boat I have owned it was the best tracker for sure thanks to the real full keel

I used my main sail as a ddw sail on my h28 ketch...ddw from providence to isla mujeres, as the winds piped up around the tip of nicaragua I just took down my poled jib and mizzen leaviing a FULL blanket of a main sail...unreefed...this was the most steady configuration, having twin back stays, check stays and lowers the main mast wasnt going anywhere so I SURFPLOWED in 35knots of wind on my tank of a boat doing double digits for hours...yes double digits...low but still I was doing twice hull speed and enjoying the hell out of it

its still my best sail to date

no boat is slow downind if the conditions are right

jajajajajajaja


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> Jon, you also need to remember I am basically sailing single handed, and dealing with a lot of rigging, poles, and sails may not be the safest thing to do when the winds are 25- 30 knots and the wind swell at 10 feet breaking over the deck. In those conditions I would rather sail a little up angle from DDW.


Damn, you sure are determined to keep putting up roadblocks as to why you shouldn't, or can't pole out your jib ;-)

It's not that complicated, or dangerous, it's done by solo sailors all the time, and I haven't heard anyone suggesting you should be trying it when seas are breaking over the deck...



casey1999 said:


> And from your knowledgeable data base do you have an answer: "Does one poll out a jib when not going directly down wind, and for what reasons or conditions would one do that?"


I'd suggest you re-read Andy Shell's article again, he gives a description of the benefits of poling the jib out to weather when broad reaching, although I've never been comfortable trying to carry it as far forward as he claims to... Bottom line is, you simply need to get out there and experiment, and figure this stuff out for yourself...



casey1999 said:


> And from you posted quote, I see the word "Usually"- interesting:
> On a displacement cruising boat, the quickest way to travel from point A to point B is still a straight line. Cruisers sometimes get caught up in sailing gybing angles, thinking the extra speed will make up for the extra distance sailed. It's (usually) not the case.


Interesting experiment re downwind sailing done by YACHTING WORLD... Certainly not conclusive by any means, but interesting nevertheless...

Which is the best way to sail downwind?

Most surprising result to me, is that the boat gybing downwind with an asymetrical wasn't all that much faster to the finish line than the one sailing DDW with the genoa poled out... Again, your boat is a very special one indeed, if her performance reaching off under your 110% working jib is on a par with the boats in YW's test being sailed at similar angles while flying an asymetrical spinnaker...

;-)


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg 
That was an excellent article you posted:

Which is the best way to sail downwind?

I am still trying to understand it. However, I thought this statement within the article was very interesting:

[We spoke to Luke Shingledecker of Farr Yacht Design, the company that designed the Beneteau First 40

'The best progress downwind is often achieved by sailing the angles because the apparent wind speed is greater, and the apparent wind angle is closer to a reach, where the sails can generate lift and are more efficient. Dead downwind, the sails just catch wind. Sailing higher increases boat speed enough to overcome the extra distance sailed.

'In stronger winds, the loss of apparent wind speed is a much smaller portion of the total windspeed so the best progress downwind occurs at deeper angles.

'Dead downwind, increasing sail area by switching from poled-out jib to spinnaker increases thrust, which increases boatspeed. But increased boatspeed decreases the apparent wind speed, which means less thrust. So, as you found, the increase in boatspeed is much smaller than the increase in area. Also, the thrust required to increase speed is not proportional; at typical boatspeeds, the required thrust increases with the third power of speed (30% more thrust to go 10% faster).

'Reviewing our velocity prediction for this boat, I would expect the increase in boat speed (from poled-out jib to symmetric spinnaker) to be 10-12% in 5-10 knots of wind, decreasing to 7% in 15-20 knots of wind - a bit more than you have recorded, possibly due to the difficulty of keeping the spinnaker full. The relative speed differences should reduce in stronger winds.']


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

Casey, in that article, the general conclusion reached by the researchers was that a Farr designed Beneteau 40 sails very nicely nearly DDW under jib and mainsail, wing and wing, and that it is a very uncomplicated way to sail downwind, especially when shorthanded.

The Farr designer expressed his opinion that the Bene 40 can benefit by sailing the angles downwind, instead of sailing DDW.

I have crewed fairly extensively on a Beneteau First 40, trimming the mainsail, which is the principal driving sail on the fractional rig boat. With it's PHRF rating of only 27, the Bene has an extremely easily driven hull. In light air, it accelerates easily on the slightest increase in apparent wind, so, if any boat can benefit by sailing the angles downwind, the Bene would be a likely candidate. More conventional, heavier, displacement boats with much higher PHRF ratings, by comparison, aren't nearly as easily driven as the Bene, and are far less likely to accelerate on a zephyr by sailing the angles.

None of that changes the overall conclusion of the study that most boats sail very nicely nearly DDW under jib and mainsail, wing and wing, and that it is a very uncomplicated way to sail downwind, especially when shorthanded.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

I've always gone DDW wing and wing without a pole and with minimal issue. Just the way I learned, and never really thought about it. Does adding a pole really add that much other than preventing the jib from the occasional luff?


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

When you are using a pole, you shouldn't be going exactly DDW. The faster angle is approximately 170* AWA. Think of it this way. When your boom is "all the way out", It isn't exactly perpendicular to centerline owing to the aft lower shroud. Likewise, the whisker pole has to be a little forward of the forward lower shroud. When set up, these two spars are in plane (or close to it). Sail with the wind perpendicular to the plane of these two spars. (note that this is a little off from DDW or about 170* AWA). You go a lot faster as you are projecting more sail area and you are getting better lift off of your sails (use your leach tell tales on both jib and main). This really, really works. I won a national championship in a Jib and main class using these techniques.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

GeorgeB said:


> When you are using a pole, you shouldn't be going exactly DDW. The faster angle is approximately 170* AWA. Think of it this way. When your boom is "all the way out", It isn't exactly perpendicular to centerline owing to the aft lower shroud. Likewise, the whisker pole has to be a little forward of the forward lower shroud. When set up, these two spars are in plane (or close to it). Sail with the wind perpendicular to the plane of these two spars. (note that this is a little off from DDW or about 170* AWA). You go a lot faster as you are projecting more sail area and you are getting better lift off of your sails (use your leach tell tales on both jib and main). This really, really works. I won a national championship in a Jib and main class using these techniques.


Do you really need the whisker to do this, however, or just a helmsman that is really paying attention? Or does the whisker add so much stability that it really adds to your speed?


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Without a pole, the helmsman is forced to sail DDW (180* AWA) because it is only wind pressure that is holding out the jib. The pole is projecting the jib out further than wind alone and it is "squaring" the wind perpendicular to the sail. The other problem with no-pole DDW is you are constantly fighting to keep the job inflated. Every time it collapses, you are dumping power (and speed) and you need to re-inflate it before the sail will start drawing again. Very herky-jerky and inefficient.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

seaner97 said:


> Does adding a pole really add that much other than preventing the jib from the occasional luff?


It depends.

Some racing rules limit the length of a whisker pole to the length of the boat's J measurement. (the distance from the bow to the base of the mast.) Other racing rules don't limit the length of a whisker pole. If you aren't racing, there's also no limit.

A pole that's limited to the length of the J prevents the jib from collapsing, and thus keeps more sail area exposed to the wind. Each time the sail collapses, the wind pressure on the sail is reduced, and the boat speed diminishes. Using a pole maximizes boat speed. In strong, steady winds, with good sail trimming techniques, it is possible to keep the jib from collapsing, even without using the pole.

A longer whisker pole can spread a bigger sail over a wider area. It increases the overall thrust on the sail, and will increase boat speed. If a longer pole can be used, a boat sailing wing and wing in strong winds can sail downwind as fast as a boat flying a symmetrical spinnaker.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Sailormon6 said:


> It depends.
> 
> Some racing rules limit the length of a whisker pole to the length of the boat's J measurement. (the distance from the bow to the base of the mast.) Other racing rules don't limit the length of a whisker pole. If you aren't racing, there's also no limit.
> 
> ...


Even without the pole it's the fastest I've had my boat going. Pull up the CB, go wing to wing and the thing really moves. It does wallow a little in lighter winds and I guess I can see where the pole would be helpful there. I have a spin that I've never used on this boat (too much air to bother when I've had enough crew on board to fly for the first time, not enough crew to have the cajones on the days it might help- but I'll get to it someday), but maybe I'll have to pick up one of those telescoping whiskers.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

What I really need to do is get my boat back in the water and run some sea trials on polling the jib and comparing to my down wind jibes, but I got a lot to do before that happens. Just about have the entire boat apart including the engine. So until she is back in the water, take a look at this polar diagram for a Cal 30:

http://www.catalina30.com/TechLib/Polar Charts/Catalina 30 Polars.pdf

Now tell me the outcome difference in say going DDW or say sailing with the wind a AWA of 150 deg. Looks like at low wind speeds you pick up about a knot, and at higher wind speeds you pick up 1/2 knot. I am going to work some math and see how the boats compare in distance made good- comments welcome.

Ok I worked the math comparing a DDW run to sailing with true wind at 145 deg with wind speed at 6k. I come up with a speed of 3 knts DDW and 4 knts at 145 Deg. So at the end of an hour I estimate the DDW run is faster and that by sailing at the 145 Deg I need to sail and additional 0.5 nautical miles that would take me and additional 7-1/2 minutes. So during 24 hours of sailing, going at 145 degree would entail sailing an additional 3 hours to make up the lost distance.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

seaner97 said:


> Do you really need the whisker to do this, however, or just a helmsman that is really paying attention? Or does the whisker add so much stability that it really adds to your speed?


In addition to the effects that George and Sailormon have already described, I have also found that when sailing - usually on larger bodies of water such as an ocean - one often encounters a phenomenon known as _WAVES_...

;-)

Going back to the situation I described in post #4... We were mostly sailing at an AWA of about 150 degrees... To have been able to keep that headsail filled in those conditions, without a pole, might have been beyond the abilities of even the most skilled helmsman, for days on end, never inattentive for a moment...

I dunno, sure seems a lot simpler to stick a pole out there, and let Raymarine do the driving, to me...


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## Loki9 (Jun 15, 2011)

casey1999 said:


> What I really need to do is get my boat back in the water and run some sea trials on polling the jib and comparing to my down wind jibes, but I got a lot to do before that happens. Just about have the entire boat apart including the engine. So until she is back in the water, take a look at this polar diagram for a Cal 30:
> 
> http://www.catalina30.com/TechLib/Polar Charts/Catalina 30 Polars.pdf
> 
> ...


You have the data you need (the polar chart) but you came to the wrong conclusion. The polar chart that you link tells you the optimal run angles. In 6kts of breeze the optimal run angle is 143 degrees true wind angle. You should keep working on the math until you can understand that answer. I can help walk you through it if you want, but it seems that you are close to working it out on your own.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Loki9 said:


> You have the data you need (the polar chart) but you came to the wrong conclusion. The polar chart that you link tells you the optimal run angles. In 6kts of breeze the optimal run angle is 143 degrees true wind angle. You should keep working on the math until you can understand that answer. I can help walk you through it if you want, but it seems that you are close to working it out on your own.


Or, since he seems to want to keep things as simple as possible, he could just print out this table for quick reference, and laminate it...

;-)










Ocean Sail Articles: Velocity Made Good Trading off course against speed


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

My wife and I, both in our 60's, are about to sail 1,300 nm DW from Boara Bora to Tonga...A pole and Raymarine...Like Jon suggests...is the only sensible way to do the journey!


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Or, since he seems to want to keep things as simple as possible, he could just print out this table for quick reference, and laminate it...
> 
> ;-)
> 
> ...


Ok, looks like some good stuff in that link- i need to do some reading and studying. But, yea, looks like the experts are right, when in doubt, pole it out.
Regards


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> seaner97 said:
> 
> 
> > Do you really need the whisker to do this, however, or just a helmsman that is really paying attention? Or does the whisker add so much stability that it really adds to your speed?
> ...


Yeah, no waves here in the Penobscott. :rolleyes Yet I don't seem to have that much of an issue.
But, as I said, maybe I'll try the pole to see if it's that much easier/better.


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