# Bumping heads



## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

After reading a few threads concerning living aboard, I've noticed that many different people have stated that they have lived aboard their boats for years and then mention the boats length. The "many people" I'm refering to have been living on boats under 30' in length. I've been reading the specs for many different types of boats and, generally speaking, boats under 30' have less than 6' of headroom. 

I'm 6'2" tall and in order to find that kind of head room I seem to be stuck with buying a boat 32' or bigger. Thinking further on this, now I'm wondering if having less headroom than the owners standing height is a common thing? Before I purchased an Endeavour 32, I had visited a couple who were selling a Balboa 26. From the moment I stepped aboard I felt like I was constantly stooping, which I was. First it was the boom. As I stepped into the cabin, the smallness of it didn't bother me as much as walking around did. When sitting, I was comfortable. The V-berth was short but adequate. I just couldn't stand completely up. 

Is this situation common to those that live aboard smaller boats? Are the owners short enough that they have standing headroom on these boats? I would think that standing headroom would be a requirement for maintaining comfort while aboard. It certainly is for me. But then again, I wonder if it is just another thing to get use to as one settles into a life of living on the water.

Standing headroom... I've seen that listed as a spec on many boats. Can anybody tell me if standing headroom refers to a specific height? It's not a one size fits all kinda thing. I've read articles from experienced liveaboards that say in time you get accustomed to living in a small space. Does this include the vertical plane?

So, what are your experiences and thoughts on this? The next boat I buy will be my home. I intend to cruise and eventually cross oceans. I'm use to having no headroom in my tent when I go camping. If headroom on a boat is something you just get use to, like a tent, then maybe I'm worrying to much about it. I would love to hear your thoughts and opinions on the subject.

Thanks to all and have a great weekend.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I think most vendors would call anything 6' or higher 'standing headroom'.

I do think that as a liveaboard being able to stand up without stooping would be rather more important than for casual cruising (would you want to live in your tent full time??),.. many boats w/o full headroom can provide headroom at the galley, for instance, with a pop top or an open hatch but that's not going to be a practical liveaboard situation. If part time cruising/sailing the reality is that you don't need to be standing up most of the time you're below (sleeping or sitting at a table)

People such as yourselves over 6 feet tall definitely have different needs when it comes to boat shopping. Age and fitness level will factor in here too... a bad back and constant stooping is not a good combination...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Can anybody tell me if standing headroom refers to a specific height?"
No, it has no legal or industry meaning. FYI, the average US male is about 5'10" tall so if you had to push it, 5'10.5" would be "standing headroom". A good orthopedic surgeon might be able to help you meet that lower standard. Otherwise...you may just need to look for a taller boat. 

With regard to the boom, "performance" boats will have lower booms to capture more wind. Even on a 42' Pearson ketch the mizzen boom would take your head off at the helm. That's not just a function of boat size, but of design.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Headroom is not just a function of length although it gets much easier to have it with a longer boat. The Nonsuch 22 for example has standing headroom for me at 5' 11". look around and you will find boats that are offshore capable, not loo long/expensive, and that you can stand in


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Standing headroom, at least in the salon, is a must to live aboard, IMHO. Ducking into sleeping quarters is not a problem, since you will lie down most of that time. However, changing clothes with out headroom can be a nuisance.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

Thanks for the input everybody.  I get the feeling that I need to look at boats between 30' and 36'. The problem I'm running into is that very few of the boats I look at actually state the amount of headroom in the specs. A few do, and several mention "standing headroom", but it is generally just not mentioned. I've looked at several boats that I like that are under 30 feet but can't find a definite answer on headroom. 

The Bristol 29, the Cape Dories under 30', Bristol Channel Cutter, Allied, plus several more... They are nice boats and look to be within the budget I've set for myself. But short of travelling to actually walk into one, the headroom number remains ellusive. I'm still in the saving phase financially so travelling very far is not an option right now.

I was getting the feeling that since headroom is so often not mentioned in listings maybe it was not such a big deal. With that said, can anyone suggest any offshore capable boats with 6'2" headroom that are under 32'?


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Standing headroom, at least in the salon, is a must to live aboard, IMHO. Ducking into sleeping quarters is not a problem, since you will lie down most of that time. However, changing clothes with out headroom can be a nuisance.


I just have to agree with you. Being able to stand completely up should be just as important, if not more so, than how many people can sleep on the boat. I'm willing to bet that entertaining that many guests happens a whole lot less than the number of times you want to stand and stretch the kinks out!


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## chrisferro (May 9, 2008)

My 1983 Seidelmann 30 has well over 6 feet of headroom, probably 6'5 or so. There are always 1 or 2 Seidelmann's for sale in the Chesapeake area, and they have tons of room downstairs due to their massive 12 foot beam. You may want to take a look at one. If I win the lottery I'll sell you mine when I get a bigger boat...

Chris Ferro


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## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm 6'3" and I believe I can fully stand up on my friend's Catalina 27. He's a live aboard and is at least 6'2". Have to verify this the next time I'm on his boat.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

For someone 6'2" tall I would suggest that you want 6'3" headroom or more throughout any areas of the boat where you would normally be standing. You can get by with stooping much of the time on a boat that you only spend weekends and the occasional longer cruise, but on a liveaboard that is going to get old REALLY fast! You don't need that above a berth, or even the "sitting area" of a head, but elsewhere...

You are going to find extremely few boats under 30' with that kind of headroom. In the 30-32 range you'll find more, but they will still probably be the minority. Get up to 34' and above and you'll find plenty of boats with the headroom you need. I am only 6' myself, but if I were looking for a liveaboard I would be focusing on boats in the 34-40 foot range. If I discovered a particular make and model that was shorter, that had the headroom and layout I wanted, I would add that to the list. But I would not spend a lot of time examining shorter boats.

Good luck.

Edited to add: Remember that when a manufacturer quotes a particular amount of headroom on a boat that is often the maximum headroom, and may only occur in one particular spot (usually in the saloon). Again, for living aboard I would not want a boat that has only ONE PLACE where I can stand fully upright. I want that headroom throughout most of the boat.


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

i have a 26ft paceship and i think its rated at 6'2",but the fact of the matter is your probably not going get [living in a house ] luxury in any thing less than a 48-50 ft.one million+ dollar boat,thats just the nature of the beast


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

Thanks to everyone for your replies. I guess I'm pretty much stuck with something over 32'. I do like several boats that fall in under that number though, mainly because of cost. I've been told that upkeep costs rise at a crazy rate as boat length increases. While I do have a budget I want to stay in, it's the annual cost of maintenance and upkeep I'm trying to keep down. That and the fact that I will probably be singlehanding. 

I'm not looking for luxury and I certainly don't need anything as big as a house, but I do want to be comfortable. The Seidelmann seemed to be a nice boat. I actually learned to sail on a Catalina 27. The more I consider my intended uses of the boat in a realistic manner, the more I feel like the 33' to 38' range is where I need to concentrate.

I hope you all enjoy the weekend. Take care.


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

i didn't mean to sound discouraging but realistic,i love my little boat,i love sleeping on her at night when theres some chop to the water,i love knowing its ready to go on whatever impulse i might have but i've yet to see a blowboat that one could call comfortable,your always climbing up or down and repairs that come up will always be in some tiny recess but if its in your blood ,you adapt


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

sawingknots said:


> i didn't mean to sound discouraging but realistic,i love my little boat,i love sleeping on her at night when theres some chop to the water,i love knowing its ready to go on whatever impulse i might have but i've yet to see a blowboat that one could call comfortable,your always climbing up or down and repairs that come up will always be in some tiny recess but if its in your blood ,you adapt


You didn't discourage me. If that's all it took, I shouldn't be anywhere near the water in the first place. I want to know what people much more experienced than myself think. I read these forums much more than I post but if I want or need to know something, I WILL pick your brains for every scrap of information I can get.

Comfort is a relative thing. I build bridges so I'm use to eating my lunch with dirty hands while sitting in a shady spot on the ground. That is much more comfortable than those days when we're soaking wet in the rain and can't eat because we're too busy. On that note, keep the advice, opinions, and suggestions coming.

I can see where having less than adequate headroom to stand in can be tolerable, even adventuresome during short trips. But as was suggested, I still think it would have to be a requirement for spending long periods aboard. After reading about all the little things that people must adapt to when they move aboard and given the tendency of sailboat listings to not mention headroom available, I was wondering if it may end up being just one more thing to adapt to. Thanks for the reality check though.


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## HPLou (Feb 25, 2002)

My 1987 Watkins 29 has 6'-3" headroom which gives it a nice roomy air about it. She is well built and a real cruiser. Not fast but easy to live on.


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## extremo (Nov 13, 2009)

*6' in a Voyager 35*

I am 6' and live in a Voyager 35. In the saloon I have _just_ enough room -- barefoot. If I have shoes on or winter boots, my head will rub. There are also a few things mounted (handholds, instrument cluster, etc.) whose locations your body gets to know intuitively after several head bangs.

Of course you will need to visit (and survey) a boat before you buy, but I can see narrowing down the choices from specs could be very frustrating.


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## WDS123 (Apr 2, 2011)

For a live aboard - standing headroom is going to be very desirable. But note, in order to get 6'2" of honest clear headroom in a boat less than 40' many adjustments will have to be made all negatively effecting seaworthiness and sailing qualities. 

Higherfreeboard

Wide beam

Excessively High cabin top 


All serve to raise the weight above the waterline, decreasing stiffness.


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## sep2x (Oct 26, 2011)

We live on our Downeaster 32 which has unreal headroom, close to 6'-9" in some places but realistically it's 6'-5". We lived on a Catalina 27' for one year before buying this boat and there is only 6'-1" headroom under the companionway, the rest is closer to 5'-10" if I had to guess. I could stand up fine, my husband could not. Now I have more headroom in our boat then I do in my office! The building is an old farm house and has very low ceilings on the 2nd floor...

Check out our blog at Sailing Seabird to learn more about our 32', and MaineLiveaboards | Where Mainers living on their boats can connect. if you're interested! I am trying to get a good online resource out there for folks who are hoping to move on board in the future.

Good luck in your search!

Sophi


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

denverd0n said:


> For someone 6'2" tall I would suggest that you want 6'3" headroom or more throughout any areas of the boat where you would normally be standing. You can get by with stooping much of the time on a boat that you only spend weekends and the occasional longer cruise, but on a liveaboard that is going to get old REALLY fast! You don't need that above a berth, or even the "sitting area" of a head, but elsewhere...
> 
> You are going to find extremely few boats under 30' with that kind of headroom. In the 30-32 range you'll find more, but they will still probably be the minority. Get up to 34' and above and you'll find plenty of boats with the headroom you need. I am only 6' myself, but if I were looking for a liveaboard I would be focusing on boats in the 34-40 foot range. If I discovered a particular make and model that was shorter, that had the headroom and layout I wanted, I would add that to the list. But I would not spend a lot of time examining shorter boats.
> 
> ...


Thank you, thank you, thankyou .... I thought I was the only one left who used the correct term i.e. " saloon " .


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## ArcherBowman (Jul 1, 2009)

boatpoker said:


> Thank you, thank you, thankyou .... I thought I was the only one left who used the correct term i.e. " saloon " .


People don't? Hell, what else do they call it? The "living room?"

I mean, honestly, next you'll be telling me people say "right and left side of the boat" and "round windows."


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## mikieg (Oct 29, 2010)

i have a 25 foot racing boat designed in the late 70's. it sleeps 4 and is a stoop only affair. i love the boat so much and cherished the 3 months i lived on her that i never notice the stooping. i am 5'10". it might have 4.5 feet in there.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I had a 1968 27-Catalina sloop with 6-2 headroom in the center of the boat, less near the V-berth and in the head, more close to the quarter berth. As a live-aboard it was just too small.

I sold the Catalina, purchased a 1973 Morgan Out Island, 6-8 headroom, huge amount of living space and you'll never bang your noggin'. And, it draws a foot less water than the Catalina.

Good luck,

Gary


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## hboy (Oct 20, 2011)

Hi:

I am 6'4". I have been on the following and they should suit a 6'2" person:

Alberg 34
Aloha 34
Niagara 35
CS 36T

A Douglas 32 was way under for me, but might work in a squeak for you. 

Some of the Grampians are tall I have read, but likely make other sacrifices. 

Oh a broker was going to show me a Ticon 30, but it wasn't available that day.

I was on a Corbin 39 that was probably 6"2" to 6"3". These are mostly custom interiors so one likely would need to step onto every candidate to know for sure.

The best boat I have been on for me in the lower 30s is likely the Aloha 34, but I am concentrating my search on the 40 to 45 foot range now.

Regards,

hboy


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

hboy said:


> Hi:
> 
> I am 6'4". I have been on the following and they should suit a 6'2" person:
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have about 2 more inches of trouble finding standing headroom than I do!  Thanks for the list. I have the Albergs on my short list. I'm looking mainly in the 32' to 37' range and May go to 40' or 41' for the right boat but I want to keep it smaller and more manageable. I don't believe I've checked into the Aloha's. Who makes the CS 36? It doesn't sound familiar.

I've done enough stooping over at work that I'm not anxious to make that a part of my cruising regimen.

Dean


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

Dean101 said:


> I've done enough stooping over at work that I'm not anxious to make that a part of my cruising regimen.
> 
> Dean


Glad you got that figured out.

I'm 6'4". I have to stand upright a lot. That first 15° of bending with a bad back is rough. Having to do it all the time is too rough.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

therapy23 said:


> Glad you got that figured out.
> 
> I'm 6'4". I have to stand upright a lot. That first 15° of bending with a bad back is rough. Having to do it all the time is too rough.


I understand where you're coming from with that. I've had 2 inflamed ligaments in my lower back now for going on almost 2 years. The doctor told me it takes a lot of time for things like that to heal but who can afford to be off work for that long? They don't bother me too much as long as I don't stay bent over for hours on end. But when you have to tie rebar, finish concrete, or any number of other tasks for hours on end, they do get to aching! Cruising is suppose to be an enjoyable experience so I'm not going to make it hard on myself by owning a boat I can't stand up in.

If good seamanship is thinking ahead and being prepared, then I'll have made a good start by keeping the pain out of my back so I can better deal with the pains that come a few inches lower!


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## rossny (Aug 6, 2010)

*bumping feet....bed room*

How about the length of the bed?


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

rossny said:


> How about the length of the bed?


Hboy and Therapy have it worse than me! I don't think I will have the same problem with berth length that I do finding standing headroom for myself. I'll probably nap in the cockpit on longer trips anyway and the v-berths on Catalina 27's and Balboa 26's are long enough to accomodate me. I shouldn't run into any problems with cramped feet on any boat in the mid 30' range.


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## tomperanteau (Jun 4, 2009)

Old age and spinal compression certainly makes for more choice.


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## mdbee (May 2, 2007)

At 6'6" and needing a shallow draft, I'm screwed.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

mdbee said:


> At 6'6" and needing a shallow draft, I'm screwed.


OMG!  A larger swing keel maybe? I wonder what kind of headroom you get on a Cat versus a monohull?


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## hboy (Oct 20, 2011)

Dean101 said:


> Sounds like you have about 2 more inches of trouble finding standing headroom than I do!  Thanks for the list. I have the Albergs on my short list. I'm looking mainly in the 32' to 37' range and May go to 40' or 41' for the right boat but I want to keep it smaller and more manageable. I don't believe I've checked into the Aloha's. Who makes the CS 36? It doesn't sound familiar.
> 
> I've done enough stooping over at work that I'm not anxious to make that a part of my cruising regimen.
> 
> Dean


I am having a terrible time with the headroom thing. I think that I am willing to not have headroom, as it is just so limiting.

CS boats were built by a company called Canadian Sailcraft which I believe changed their corporate name to just CS at some point. There is also a CS 33 and 30 that might provide 6"2", but I have no experience being in those boats.

There is a headroom discussion on another site too you might want to check out.

Canadian-Built Bluewater Boats ? Headroom ? - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Regards,

hboy


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

mdbee said:


> At 6'6" and needing a shallow draft, I'm screwed.


Buy my Gem.

One son is 6'5" and he manages. Though he is young.

My 18' Westerly was great with sitting headroom only. I was young.


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## SaltyHog (Sep 7, 2010)

As mentioned, a tall standing room measurement will have (mostly bad) effects on other things on a boat less than ~40 Ft. High freeboard, high cabin top, etc. will be things to consider. I'm 6' and I can just stand straight (with deck shoes) in the saloon and galley of our Cabo Rico 38. I have to crouch a bit in the V-berth and head. I think that's a good compromise as the freeboard and windage are as small as reasonable, thus making her a better sailing boat. Of course it all depends on what your plans are for the boat and therefore what your priorities might be. Also, be careful of the "listed" headroom. Ours was "listed" as having 6'2", but I think that was being a bit optimistic. Hope it helps. 
-Tom


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

SaltyHog said:


> As mentioned, a tall standing room measurement will have (mostly bad) effects on other things on a boat less than ~40 Ft. High freeboard, high cabin top, etc. will be things to consider. I'm 6' and I can just stand straight (with deck shoes) in the saloon and galley of our Cabo Rico 38. I have to crouch a bit in the V-berth and head.  I think that's a good compromise as the freeboard and windage are as small as reasonable, thus making her a better sailing boat. Of course it all depends on what your plans are for the boat and therefore what your priorities might be. Also, be careful of the "listed" headroom. Ours was "listed" as having 6'2", but I think that was being a bit optimistic. Hope it helps.
> -Tom


WOW! I never would have thought that a 38' boat would only have 6' of headroom! I better dig a little deeper about this on some of the larger boats I have on my list. The headroom wouldn't be such an issue if I were planning only relatively short trips but I intend on living aboard as well as taking some time off (at least a couple of years) and doing some extended cruising. Even with those plans the headroom probably won't be that big an issue while transitting but I would like to be able to stand up while I'm anchored.

I do understand how interior headroom ussually adds to the windage and freeboard so I'm not looking for anything excessive, just enough to stand up straight in the galley/saloon area.

And thanks for the warning about "listed Headroom". I'll definitely keep that in mind. I've got the Cabo Rico on my list and to be quite honest, I assumed that it would have enough headroom for me. It's a sweet looking boat and has such great reviews. Unfortunately, it will probably be out of my budget range...


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## tomperanteau (Jun 4, 2009)

Our 36 footer has 6'4" in the salon and 6' in the vberth. Ours is probably a bit generous, too. I have to stoop a bit in the vberth. Where we gain, as with your boat, is in speed and sailability. Ours is a fast boat and sails very well in little wind.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"WOW! I never would have thought that a 38' boat would only have 6' of headroom! "
Dean, if you have a tall cabin either you make that space below the waterline--increasing depth and increasing depth before the keel even begins--or you add windage above the waterline and raise the center of gravity, or both.
All bad things for a boat. Oh, and extra cabin height means more fiberglass which raises costs again.

Wikipedia last shows the average height of the American (anglo) male at 5'10-1/2" which means six feet of cabin height will fit most of the population with room to clear. Why compromise performance and add expense just to accomodate the big guys, when they could just go out for leg reduction surgery instead? (WEG)


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## Tanley (Aug 20, 2009)

therapy23 said:


> Buy my Gem.
> 
> One son is 6'5" and he manages. Though he is young.
> 
> My 18' Westerly was great with sitting headroom only. I was young.


Was on one this weekend. At just shy of 6'3", I cant imagine being on one for an extended period of time. Nice enough boat, but headroom isn't it's strong suit.


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## cruisingdream (Feb 7, 2007)

I'm 6'4" and sail a 34 hunter, often single handed (head room is only about 6'3") and could be had this spring for the right price.


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

Tanley said:


> Was on one this weekend. At just shy of 6'3", I cant imagine being on one for an extended period of time. Nice enough boat, but headroom isn't it's strong suit.


It is better for me than any mono I have ever been on. I must have been on the wrong ones huh?

But then I have been dodging head bumps for 35 years everywhere else too.


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## mdi (Jan 15, 2009)

Thomas Firth Jones, multihull enthusiast, designer and builder, said he thought the only standing headroom anyone needed was to put your pants on and he opened his hatch and stood up to do that. At the same time he suggested if you were going to liveaboard to get the largest boat you could afford.


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