# Price of boats... Wow!!!



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I got this email a little while back from a friend of mine who is a broker. Sorry for the pagination issues. It does not copy well from the email. Basically. the first price is the list price, the second price is the Boat Show Pricing the third number is the savings:

List Price Purchase Before Dec 8 Savings
Catalina 275 $98,081 $98,081 
Catalina 315 $178,548 $170,913 $7,635
Catalina 355 $241,144 $230,244 $10,900
Catalina 385 $282,551 $276,571 $14,890 *
Catalina 445 $389,569 $369,244 $20,325 *

Hunter 33 $173,378 $160,905 $12,473 
Hunter 37 $242,029 $224,606 $17,423
Hunter 40 $307,798 $288,703 $19,095 
Hunter 45DS $429,507 $408,872 $20,635
Hunter 50AC $526,547 $484,312 $42,235
Hunter 50CC $550,894 $518,603 $32,291

Blue Jacket 40	$432,320 $425,163 $7,157



HOLY MOTHER!

Wow... I simply cannot believe some of these prices. 

So, a 31 foot Catalina, a production boat, will cost you roughly $171k (that is WITH THE BOAT SHOW DISCOUNT). With sales tax: $182,000. Now does that include any electronics? Bottom Job? Full set of canvas? Tender and outboard? Air Conditioning? Inverter? Realistically, you are going to add many more thousands to that boat and I could easily see you being into that boat for $200k... for a 31 foot boat!!

Look at the other prices... you will easily be into a 445 at $400k (especially when adding all the electronics, generator, air conditioning, etc)... well over half a million for a 50' Hunter... etc. 

I guess it has just been too long since I went to a boat show and saw the prices. I am floored. I am not sure what has driven these prices so high. Is it oil? The cost of parts? Wood? In this economy, I really doubt it is demand. I would sure like to know how many families are taking off, buying one of these boats, and going cruising. Heck, are any of them buying these boats at all even for weekending? 

Is it just me, or are these prices out of the world?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I suspect prices are increasing to recapture fixed costs in a lower volume new boat market. Just a guess. Do we know what unit volume has been each year that the major manufacturers


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> I suspect prices are increasing to recapture fixed costs in a lower volume new boat market. Just a guess. Do we know what unit volume has been each year that the major manufacturers


Nope. I didn't even go to that boat show. I got the email. I was just floored at the price of these boats... production boats at that! What is the new Hylas running? I would certainly think 7 figures.

Brian


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Brand new Hylas 54. Easy 7 figures.

There are a couple 70s around that are only a few years old for $1.5+. Love the boat, until one dismasted in Maine last year.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

That certainly makes me love my used boat even more.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Labor, precision tooling and petroleum-derived materials, I think are large cost drivers.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I do wonder what the used market is going to look like in 20 years. Will I be holding onto my then 45 year old boat because anything newer is extraordinarily expensive? Or do 2014 boats lose 70% of their value in 15 years to be competitive with the used market?

I also wonder how modern boats with heavy use of interior laminates (vs the mix of solid teak and plywood in my older boat) will hold up over long periods of time.

It's a good time to buy used boats, they are literally a bargain. I just wonder what the future holds.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Alex W said:


> I do wonder what the used market is going to look like in 20 years. Will I be holding onto my then 45 year old boat because anything newer is extraordinarily expensive? Or do 2014 boats lose 70% of their value in 15 years to be competitive with the used market?
> 
> I also wonder how modern boats with heavy use of interior laminates (vs the mix of solid teak and plywood in my older boat) will hold up over long periods of time.
> 
> It's a good time to buy used boats, they are literally a bargain. I just wonder what the future holds.


Will this make used boats even more valuable? I mean, does fiberglass really wear out? I agree with you too about the use of solid woods. The las Catalina and Hunters I saw still used them, but it looked like Bene and Jeanneau have done away with them on the models I saw.

Brian


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

Hylas 46 was around 600k base a year ago - but the show boat was close to 900! A friend bought a new Bene 393 10 years ago for around 170k. Its worth around 100-110. So its lost about 1/3 or its value in 10 years. Just a very small sample!


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## Tallswede (Jul 18, 2012)

I think like cars, all the high end materials (on top of the govt. mandated equipment), Kevlar, electronics, fancy rigging, winches etc. drive the prices up. That along with the weaker dollar/inflation have really taken their toll. The only people buying these things are the very well to do and charter companies. This leaves the middle class folks like me hoping to find older boats in good shape. Yeah, I'd love to have one of the new Catalina 350's but I'll have to settle for something a little older. That's OKay though.

Kevin


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## Cruxandreams (Mar 8, 2011)

Seriously who buys a new boat?


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## Cruxandreams (Mar 8, 2011)

do your part to be green/ recycle.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I don't think the new boats have really changed any more that expected.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There is a curve where new prices do buoy used prices, assuming the used market is maintained to modern standards. Happens in aircraft, where in fact, some used airframes cost more to buy used today than they sold for new in the 70s. Not like the owners made money on an inflation adjusted basis, particularly after all the maintenance invested over 40 years. Nevertheless, there is no doubt the cost of new influences the cost of used.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Kevin, The 350 is an "old" model replaced by the 355, the 350 has a beam of 13' the 355 is a foot less. The last boat show I went to the owners of the new Catalinas on display were on board guarding their new boats. They'd "loaned" them to the broker, they don't make a boat until someone orders one. If Ford did that I bet a new F150 would cost more too. I hope a lot of people buy new 355's I'd like one when they depreciate down to my budget. If anyone here gets one could you order a fin keel please, since they moved to Florida they keep cranking out wings.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Good used boats today still sell for prices similar to what they cost new. From what I can tell my Pearson 28-2 was a roughly $35k boat in 1986. They sell for $20-$30k 28 years later on the west coast (a bit cheaper on the east coast, where all boats appear to be 25-50% cheaper).

A good J/30 is another boat that is worth about the same now as what one cost new in the early 80s.

Of course this is ignoring inflation. Accounting for inflation my Pearson 28-2 would be more like $75k new, still quite a bit cheaper than $150-$200k that a well appointed ~30' cruising boat costs in 2014.

It isn't only cruising boats that have gone way up in price. A new 505 racing dinghy fully rigged costs somewhere in the $25k range. Good condition used ones are in the $1500-$7000 price range.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

jsaronson said:


> Hylas 46 was around 600k base a year ago - but the show boat was close to 900! A friend bought a new Bene 393 10 years ago for around 170k. Its worth around 100-110. So its lost about 1/3 or its value in 10 years. Just a very small sample!


I haven't lost anywhere near that on my boat. Wow! Why dd he take such a hit? If I sold my boat right now, I would not make money, but I would not be out much from what I paid new either. That does not include the gazillion dollars I have thrown out at it since I bought it, which you will never get back, but that is not a bad return for the years of use I have had.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

capttb said:


> Kevin, The 350 is an "old" model replaced by the 355, the 350 has a beam of 13' the 355 is a foot less. The last boat show I went to the owners of the new Catalinas on display were on board guarding their new boats. They'd "loaned" them to the broker, they don't make a boat until someone orders one. If Ford did that I bet a new F150 would cost more too. I hope a lot of people buy new 355's I'd like one when they depreciate down to my budget. If anyone here gets one could you order a fin keel please, since they moved to Florida they keep cranking out wings.


I do not believe that information is correct. Sorry.

Each dealer is required to stock certain boats. They are in levels (I am making the levels up as I do not remember, but I think it is 0-25, 26-32, 32-38, 39-50). In order to sell one of those boats in that range, you have to stock one of the boats in that range. You take out a loan with the bank where you only pay interest on the boat while it sits on your showroom floor, so to speak. Hopefully you sell that boat before your interest payments and cost = purchase price.

What dealers will do is they will sell you your boat, often at a discount, and ask if they can keep it until the boat show and show it at the boat show. You generally close at the boat show. or shortly thereafter. That way, they are still getting their money, selling the boat, and showing their boat as being stocked. If they sold it to you immediately, they would have to turn around and restock that boat in its class. That is why you see so many owners sitting on their boats at boat shows. It is a win-win for boat parties, plus it gives the people who own the dealership a lot of exposure at th show, and that is where they sell most of their boats.

I have purchased all of my boats new, including this one. On all of those boats, I sat on them at the boat show and put them in the boat show. And quite frankly, there is a sense of pride sitting on your boat at the show while others come in wanting something similar. I never worked for Catalina, but I sold a LOT of boats for them. I did this because I didn't work for them, I could sit down with perspective buyers, and be honest with them about the positives and negatives. Perspective owners appreciated that.

Brian


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Not to get political, but we have been printing a lot of dollars in the past few years.

Maybe we are seeing an increase in the velocity (turnover) of money, which would make the money seem even more plentiful. I doubt it's happening yet, though.

Pretty soon, when we go to the store to buy a new sailboat, we'll need a shopping cart full of money. (Some sort of facetiousness, irony, hdden cringing at future pain, or something in that statement.)

--

Does this mean I need to up my insirance? I put our coverage at about replacement cost. If that's gone up then I need to increase our coverage (or pause our periodic decrease due to the aging of the boat).

Regards,
Brad


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Brad you wont need a shopping cart of money because 99.99% of the people who buy these boats cant afford them so they finance them. Put an x on a piece of paper and she is yours for only 999 per month  who care wht the purchase price is or interest over 20 years baby its only 999 a month


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Cruisingdad said:


> I haven't lost anywhere near that on my boat. Wow! Why dd he take such a hit? If I sold my boat right now, I would not make money, but I would not be out much from what I paid new either. That does not include the gazillion dollars I have thrown out at it since I bought it, which you will never get back, but that is not a bad return for the years of use I have had.
> 
> Brian


Brian, it's probably correct to say that if you stripped out all the extras that you have put into your boat over the standard spec, you would have a really tough time getting back anywhere near what you paid. It is those gazillion dollars that makes your boat a desirable used purchase.

Two examples:

My ex boss (very wealthy) bought a Bene 50 in 2008, brand new, on a whim, never owned a boat before. He filled it with stuff to the tune of NZ$130K. Within the first year of ownership, he decided that sailing was not his thing and he bought a high-end power launch. When he came to sell the Bene, he asked the original purchase price of just the boat and after 18 months of trying to sell it he eventually off-loaded it at NZ$80k less than he paid for it not counting the toys. The boat was seldom used, effectively in as -new condition. So he effectively lost NZ$210K within a couple of years.

We have friends that bought a Bene 40 two years ago brand new. They paid NZ$325k including taxes. They have spent another NZ$100k on it since then and counting. If they sold it tomorrow, they would possibly get back most of the $325k but the rest would be school fees. Consequently, it is probably true to say that the boat has devalued by 30% in two years.

So IMHO, the notion that an "ordinary" boat retains value is smoke and mirrors. Maybe Hinkley's and similar boats do but the average production boat? I don't believe so.

I have no illusions about this, when I come to sell my boat and am able to recover 50% of what I spent in total, I will be happy. There is a cost of use to everything in life that is hard to avoid.


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Labor, precision tooling and petroleum-derived materials, I think are large cost drivers.


I would wonder if litigation protection would be part of the cost as well.



Minnewaska said:


> Happens in aircraft, where in fact, some used airframes cost more to buy used today than they sold for new in the 70s.


There is a similar thread going on in the AOPA forums about the cost of aircraft. Seriously, $300k for a 172, $750k for a G36, and $1.2m for a new Baron?! That's ridiculous.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Cruisingdad said:


> I got this email a little while back from a friend of mine who is a broker. Sorry for the pagination issues. It does not copy well from the email. Basically. the first price is the list price, the second price is the Boat Show Pricing the third number is the savings:
> 
> List Price Purchase Before Dec 8 Savings
> Catalina 275 $98,081 $98,081
> ...


Most things are less expensive in US but not boats. A Benetau Oceanis 41 costs here (standard boat without transport but with 20% tax) around 260 000 USD, without discount and on boat show discount is around 9%.

I guess that are just the prices that cost to make those boats in US, even the mass production inexpensive ones. I am sure they all are trying to make the best prices they can.

There are at least a good new on that list: comparatively to the Catalina and considering the quality difference I don't find the Bluejacket very expensive. It costs just a bit more then the Catalina 45.

But of course those are just basic boats, a very equipped boat can cost easily more 30 or 40%.

That also explains why used boats with few years are less expensive here than in the US, not only there are more on the used market as they were less expensive when new.

Regards

Paulo


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

At the same time prices for older boats seem to be at record low levels. Maybe these older boat prices are about to go up? Kind of doubt that. Not many buyers.
I think the 1% folks have more money than ever and can afford to buy these new expensive boats.


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## Torch (Dec 9, 2013)

I suspect that most sailboat owners are 45 - 70 years old (have no idea if this is correct but looking around the marinas I suspect it's not too far off). That means that the huge wave of baby boomers are now starting to near the end of their boat owning years and are selling their boats creating a glut in the market.

This is nothing but rank speculation so please feel free to comment/correct.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

In 1977, my mom and dad purchased a new Catalina 30 for $35000. In today's dollars that's about $133,300. The current price of $170k for a slightly larger Catalina is negotiable, figure a $10k reduction to $160k which is in family with the 1977 price. 

The fact is that sailboats only comprise 10% of the boat market so I suspect that scale isn't much of a factor even for the "large" manufacturers. The reality is that boats are largely hand built luxury items. Always have been and always will. 

The biggest difference that I see today is that many owners see boats as second homes and finance accordingly. While there is nothing inherently wrong with judicious financing, 90+% financing for a boat is not a great idea IMO. 

With all that said, I doubt that I would buy a new boat (or car), the numbers just don't work for me when depreciation is factored. But I'm grateful for new boat (and car) buyers.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I got my current boat, a 2001 model, 3 years ago. There are a lot of the model currently listed in the world and all but 2 are a lot more than I paid for mine. Seems to me the demand for MODERN used boats is going up based on pricing. But I bet the demand for the older style boat is decreasing and combined with their age prices are going to drop.


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

For a comparison:
House prices. 
.................................2000........1990........1980..........1970.......1960........1950.......1940
.................................Adjusted to 2000 dollars
United States $119,600...$101,100..$93,400...$65,300...$58,600...$44,600...$30,600

Actual cost:
...................................2000.........1990.........1980........1970.........1960.....1950.......1940
United States......$119,600...$79,100...$47,200...$17,000...$11,900...$7,354...$2,938

Cost of a house over the years. (Check out the inflation from 1970-1980)



Keep in mind that 30 years ago the market was the same even the the boats were smaller. 

In the scheme of things how much was a 45' boat in 1980? Who bought it? Someone from NYC, Boston, San fran, LA. 
What came on a boat in 1975? Very basic equipment. Electronics package now can run 15-20k easy. 

There was no used boat market 30 years ago VS today. 

When it comes to New Boats.....for those that can afford one; buy, buy, buy, this way i can upgrade 10 years from now. More boats sold the cheaper they will be in the future.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

I checked on yachtworld.com and found a new 2014, Catalina 445 at three different yacht sales sell for $287K to 290K. The 2014, 385 for $214K, 355 for $182K and the 315 for $127K. They are FOB the factory in Florida but you can save another $1,000 if you take the factory tour.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

ebs001 said:


> I checked on yachtworld.com and found a new 2014, Catalina 445 at three different yacht sales sell for $287K to 290K. ...


http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2014/Catalina-445-2008108/Tampa-Bay/FL/United-States#.UtcqZ_RdWSo

Who can that be? Cruisindad special price on the boat show for the Catalina 445 was $369,240. How can the boat sell out of the boat show for less $80 000? The only situation where I can imagine that happening is a bankruptcy and the boats being sold at cost price. I hope it is not the case.

Regards

Paulo


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

ebs001 said:


> I checked on yachtworld.com and found a new 2014, Catalina 445 at three different yacht sales sell for $287K to 290K. The 2014, 385 for $214K, 355 for $182K and the 315 for $127K. They are FOB the factory in Florida but you can save another $1,000 if you take the factory tour.


Those are just the base price of the boat with NO options, dealer prep, sales tax, safety equip, etc. 
I bought my 445 new. One thing that everyone forgets is the value one gets in any ownership of any item. That value will be different from person to person. 
No set price can be place on that value. There is an old saying,, "Accountants know the price of everything but the value of nothing"! Sometimes the value is worth more than the price.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

PCP said:


> . . .comparatively to the Catalina and considering the quality difference I don't find the Bluejacket very expensive. It costs just a bit more then the Catalina 45.


Went to Toronto Boat Show past weekend. There were all of 15+/- keel boats on display at one end of the building, and a huge hall full of powerboats (was it 90/10 ratio, maybe more like 95/5). The dealers teamed up for a single elevated access platform to see today's popular brands by Bene Cat Hun Jen & a couple Dufours. The show stopper for me was the Bluejacket 40 (in blue) at a show price of $477,000 CDN. I know it is largely built to order compared to the production offerings, but the execution stood out as superior considering materials, finish, ergonomics. I can understand early depreciation in the smaller production boats - higher volume, too many competing models, commonality and I suspect varying levels of owner TLC. The lower build volume boats should hold a higher value, presuming less competition and hopefully owners that will spend on the needed maintenance & upkeep. Similar to land yachts perhaps?


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Melrna said:


> Those are just the base price of the boat with NO options, dealer prep, sales tax, safety equip, etc. .


True but no indication that the prices CD quoted in post #1 were anything other than base price and in fact in that post he assumes they are base prices.


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

ebs001 said:


> True but no indication that the prices CD quoted in post #1 were anything other than base price and in fact in that post he assumes they are base prices.


I got the same email. I know the outfit that sent it. I can speak for the Catalina side and those prices are fully loaded boats.


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

Doesn't surprise me. I've bought 3 new boats in 30 years. (1984, 1988,2004) The last one ten years ago. The really big increase has been in the last ten years. What surprises me is who can afford them?


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Dear Rich People and Poor People with Good Credit,
Please continue to buy new boats that you don't really like, don't really need and in many cases can't really afford so that you can keep them for a few years and then offload onto the used market at significantly lower prices. I enjoy sailing and wouldn't be able to afford it without you generous people feeding the market.
Regards,
A Good Old Boat owner.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

PaulinVictoria said:


> Dear Rich People and Poor People with Good Credit,
> Please continue to buy new boats that you don't really like, don't really need and in many cases can't really afford so that you can keep them for a few years and then offload onto the used market at significantly lower prices. I enjoy sailing and wouldn't be able to afford it without you generous people feeding the market.
> Regards,
> A Good Old Boat owner.


A bit condescending isn't it? Why the hell would someone buy a boat that he didn't like?

Why do you assume that the ones that buy new boats don't need them, or need them less than the ones that can only buy old boats?

Why do you assume that many times the ones that buy new boats cannot afford them? After all the maintenance is much cheaper than the one of an old boat.

Why the ironic tone regarding the ones that can afford new boats?

New boats are better than old ones (that's why you are hopping that many buy them so that you can buy them when they are old) have better performance, nicer interiors and need less maintenance.

If I was rich enough I would change of sailboat regularly, maybe each 4 years or so. What's wrong in wanting the best if one can afford it?

Regards

Paulo


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I may have been mistaken Brian, but I was left with the impression that for the dealers here in California the boats had closed and they wouldn't have another until it got here from Florida. 
I did notice that they seemed pretty tricked out in that they had in-mast mains, electric winches, below deck pilots, hard top dodgers etc.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

PaulinVictoria, Your present boat is now 40 years old, when do you think you'll be in the market for that lightly used but NEW boat ? I've got an '02 with 600 hrs on the clock that'll be available as soon as I get a bigger slip.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Those kind of prices are spooky.

I bought a Catalina 309 new in 2007, and it appears that the 315 is at least 70k more than what I paid.

I just bought a 2004 Precision and paid 16.4k. I saw in the paperwork that the previous owner paid about 26k for it, new.

The same boat purchased new today, with the same equipment, would be in the 48k to 50k range. Almost double the price in just ten years. 

I can't imagine who is going to pay that kind of money for a 23 footer.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

PCP said:


> A bit condescending isn't it? Why the hell would someone buy a boat that he didn't like?
> 
> Why do you assume that the ones that buy new boats don't need them, or need them less than the ones that can only buy old boats?
> 
> ...


Simply because many people buy boats and then discover that they actually don't like the boat. If people didn't buy a new boat and then almost immediately decide it wasn't for them (for whatever reason), there wouldn't be a lot of almost new boats on the market. There are, therefore even though the tone of my post was clearly lost in translation, the point is still there.
If there are no new boats being bought, and then got rid of, there is no used boat market. It's fairly straightforward.
capttb - maybe in 30 years


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I find the sweet spot is to buy a lightly used boat that is only 4-5 years old. All systems are like new, but the original owner has taken the drive-off depreciation. Still, much more expensive than a 20 year old hull, but the value doesn't decline anywhere near the rate of brand new and you have virtually the same thing. 

Ironically, I do know someone who purchased a brand new boat about 4 years ago. Kids were all out of the house, so they sold it and moved into a condo and bought their first new boat. Let's say, it seems they've fallen out of love with it. I think they wish they had better quality or systems or something. But, who doesn't? Still, it's heartbreaking to see them question their decision.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Siamese said:


> Those kind of prices are spooky.
> 
> I bought a Catalina 309 new in 2007, and it appears that the 315 is at least 70k more than what I paid.
> 
> ...


It was already explained that those boats come with equipment. I find it odd though. Why a seller would propose a boat already with equipment? What is normal here is the price of the basic standard boat with taxes and sails, not including the transport from the factory, and then the client choose the options we want.

Why would a dealer have a boat already with equipment that probably is not the one that a future client will want?

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

PaulinVictoria said:


> Simply because many people buy boats and then discover that they actually don't like the boat. If people didn't buy a new boat and then almost immediately decide it wasn't for them (for whatever reason), there wouldn't be a lot of almost new boats on the market. There are, therefore even though the tone of my post was clearly lost in translation, the point is still there.
> If there are no new boats being bought, and then got rid of, there is no used boat market. It's fairly straightforward.
> capttb - maybe in 30 years


I have a look and maybe you are right, there is a fair number of 2011 and 2012 boats for sell and more in the US than in Europe ( cruiser-racers used for racing are sold by other reasons).

But would be that number superior to the ones that buy 30 year old boats with the idea of recovering them and that in the end or never put them on the water or put them on the water but never went ahead with the needed recovery and barely sail the boat?

There are not so many old boats around here as in the US but I don't know anybody that had bought a new boat and had sold it before 4 years of use and I know several that bought old sailboats and practically don't sail them. The boats were never recovered and cannot be used "normally" for cruising.

Regards

Paulo


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

PCP said:


> It was already explained that those boats come with equipment. I find it odd though. Why a seller would propose a boat already with equipment? What is normal here is the price of the basic standard boat with taxes and sails, not including the transport from the factory, and then the client choose the options we want.
> 
> Why would a dealer have a boat already with equipment that probably is not the one that a future client will want?
> 
> ...


Just an observation from buying a Beneteau from a great dealer. You may order one from the factory but most good dealers order boats and stock them. The boats my dealer orders are seldom "stock" boats. He orders them with upgrades such as bigger primary winches, etc. The dealer is familiar with what knowlegible buyers want and equips the boats so that they may sell more easily. In addition there may be "boat show specials", factory discounted package. Many times this is instrumentation. Then the buyer adds all the options that are dealer installed and a profit maker. A good dealer will have a staff of experienced people for commissioning and the options keep them busy.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

Cruisingdad said:


> Wow... I simply cannot believe some of these prices.
> 
> Is it just me, or are these prices out of the world?


They're out reach for most people. 
So rolling this into the camping thread :laugher

When you pay this kind of money for a boat in can be compared to parking an RV at the campground. Everyone else in a tent is camping.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

Simple micro-economics. The price is what the market will pay. If there are not any buyers at a price that will make some money, then they wouldn't build the boats. I assume that there are so many more used boat than new boats, that the price of used will not change much if the price of new goes way up.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Barquito said:


> Simple micro-economics. The price is what the market will pay. If there are not any buyers at a price that will make some money, then they wouldn't build the boats. I assume that there are so many more used boat than new boats, that the price of used will not change much if the price of new goes way up.


I believe that it will happen in the US what is already happening in Europe: there are so many old boats around that people would not want them not even given since its maintenance and upgrading will be too expensive (i am talking of boats with more than 30 years).

New boats are not more expensive now then 30 years ago. New boats imply a big number of working hours and a big amount of material. They have to cost the price they cost.

Regards

Paulo


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

PCP said:


> I believe that it will happen in the US what is already happening in Europe: there are so many old boats around that people would not want them not even given since its maintenance and upgrading will be too expensive (i am talking of boats with more than 30 years).
> 
> New boats are not more expensive now then 30 years ago. New boats imply a big number of working hours and a big amount of material. They have to cost the price they cost.
> 
> ...


We seem to have more of a DIY restoration culture here and I don't see that changing anytime soon. And boats have gone up way more than the rate of inflation that is undeniable as shown in the numbers above.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk


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## TerryBradley (Feb 28, 2006)

Tallswede said:


> I think like cars, all the high end materials (on top of the govt. mandated equipment), Kevlar, electronics, fancy rigging, winches etc. drive the prices up. That along with the weaker dollar/inflation have really taken their toll. The only people buying these things are the very well to do and charter companies. This leaves the middle class folks like me hoping to find older boats in good shape. Yeah, I'd love to have one of the new Catalina 350's but I'll have to settle for something a little older. That's OKay though.
> 
> Kevin


I'll more than likely never own a brand spanking new boat nor a brand new car. Let someone else eat the depreciation. I had to work for a living but I did own a new car back in 1974.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

When I finished school ,a Haida 26 was around $9K and wages were under $2 an hour. now I have seen the same boat for $3500 and earn $30 an hour.
One would have to be crazy, or super gullible, to buy a new plastic boat,when so many boats are available for so little, sometimes free. Ditto new gear. I'd hate to be a salesman trying to justify buying new.
What is amazing is how few youth are clueing in to this means of owning their own ( floating)home ,debt free

With the economic meltdown in Greece , I have been told that they are giving boats away there, to avoid the taxes on owning them. Then you could have your own boat already in the Med. Expensive place to be, tho.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Tallswede said:


> I think like cars, all the high end materials (on top of the govt. mandated equipment), Kevlar, electronics, fancy rigging, winches etc. drive the prices up. That along with the weaker dollar/inflation have really taken their toll. The only people buying these things are the very well to do and charter companies. This leaves the middle class folks like me hoping to find older boats in good shape. Yeah, I'd love to have one of the new Catalina 350's but I'll have to settle for something a little older. That's OKay though.
> 
> Kevin


What "government mandated equipment" is there on a boat? Likely to be an infinitesimal percentage of the cost. Granted meeting ABYC standards is somewhat costly, but not mandated.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Brent Swain said:


> One would have to be crazy, or super gullible, to buy a new plastic boat,when so many boats are available for so little, sometimes free. *Ditto new gear.*


Congrats, that likely makes you the only person posting on Sailnet who is not "crazy, or super gullible"...


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## hotdogs (Mar 5, 2008)

> What is amazing is how few youth are clueing in to this means of owning their own ( floating)home ,debt free


Boats kept on the water are not a practical home in many areas, for a variety of reasons:
* Not year-round. Slips/moorings are not available year-round, especially in colder climates. Furthermore, some locations disallow liveaboards.
* Costly. Slips/moorings are expensive, particularly so near cities
* Poor transit options. Parking may be expensive or unavailable; buses may not run nearby; the marina may be in an inconvenient location.
* Limited amenities. Boats typically have limited headroom and storage space. Sometimes they smell funky.

Anybody considering living in a boat kept on land will probably find a travel trailer more practical.

In short, there is nothing amazing about how few people ("youth" or otherwise) live in boats.


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

We will be commissioning our fourth new boat since 2001. 5th since 1999 if I include a powerboat.

2 were sold because of non-sailing circumstances and the latest purchase will likely be a retirement boat in a few years, so it's sized and equipped accordingly.

In even such a short time, it's surprising the improvements in design, the quality of construction and significant improvements in electronic technology.

The 45 we demo'd in the fall and take possession of this spring is a much better Beneteau foe example than the 473 we purchased in 2003. More useable space, easier to sail short handed, better initial quality and easier to access key systems, such as the generator. And much more comfortable for the kind of living and sailing we do.

The way we look at it, life is about treating folks right, enjoying family and friends to the fullest, experiencing new things, giving back and leaving a very small estate. .:laugher


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

miatapaul said:


> We seem to have more of a DIY restoration culture here and I don't see that changing anytime soon....


*
"This Free Sailboat site is dedicated to sailors looking for a free or nearly free sailboat. You can find them all the time on the internet. Many of the free sailboats are being offered by owners who are not using their boat and don't want to continue paying storage fees, moorage fees or slip rental fees. Some are project boats in need of sails or repair but once in a while a boat in good condition shows up where the owner just wants it gone. 
Included in this 'Free Sailboat' site are 'Nearly Free Sailboats' that have an asking price of $1000 or less and are being offered far below the normal price for that particular sailboat." *

Bone Yard Boats -- Free Boats

*Giving away my boat - free to good home....It's hard enough to sell a fully functioning boat these days, let alone one that needs a little TLC. I can't afford to pay my dues at the club this year, and I have no where to put it. I can't afford to put it into storage either. Simply, as much as I love this thing it needs to go....Northstar Farr 727*

"I have a 1962 Seafarer Polaris, 26 feet, designed by William Tripp. My
husband was restoring her until he became ill and passed away. I have
been trying to sell her for a year with no luck. At this time my
landlords are threatening to destroy her if I don't have her out of
here by January 1. I just heard of your website. Maybe you'd have an
idea.".... Her Seafarer Polaris is located in Delmar, Delaware, and is being
offered free to a good home."

*I have a Trintella-type, Dutch made, steel sailboat with a running Lister diesel that is free to anyone who wants it.*

It seems to me that is starting to happen already

Regards

Paulo


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

Cruisingdad said:


> Is it just me, or are these prices out of the world?


And this is part of why I love my 32yr old boat. 

And like many others here, my boat is paid for. My boat is one thing I definitely didn't want to finance and make payments towards. It may be a lot of work and additional funds to keep it looking good (with fixes/upgrades in the future) but it's all worth it to me.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

What was a fully loaded Caddy or Buick in 1970? $7000 ? 
And a gallon of gas was about 28 cents.

So, the car prices have gone up tenfold. Gas has gone up fifteen-fold. Rent has gone up tenfold, ditto insurance. And really, is pizza still 15 cents a slice?

Take the boat prices, divide by ten, see? That's just inflation, it isn't that boats cost MORE it is that dollars are worth only 1/10th of what they were.


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

My candy apple red Mustang in 66 was $2500!!


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## northptsailor (Jul 7, 2005)

The number of sail boats sold in the U.S. in 2012 was up from the previous year, but was still about one third of the sales in 2001. Oddly enough, the average selling price was only slightly higher about $ 40,000 vs $ 34,000 for 2001. To me that means the vast majority of new boats are small boats with an occasional sale of a larger boat. I would guess that most of the people who wish to move up to a larger boat are buying used boats.
But when I look at a sailboat magazine it seems filled with ads for bigger and bigger, and obviously more expensive boats. Perhaps the choice the manufacturers made in an effort to stay in business is to produce fewer but larger boats with higher profit margins that are aimed at the upper one percent income level. It could be that we are slowly returning to the boating environment of the early part of the twentieth century, where only the very wealthy had boats of any size.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

And a base model Mustang is still an inexpensive car, only about 10x what you paid for it. Nice Boss 302 might run a bit higher, then or now, wouldn't it? 

"To me that means the vast majority of new boats are small boats "
Last I heard, over 90% of all new sailboats sold were 24' and under.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

hotdogs said:


> Boats kept on the water are not a practical home in many areas, for a variety of reasons:
> * Not year-round. Slips/moorings are not available year-round, especially in colder climates. Furthermore, some locations disallow liveaboards.
> * Costly. Slips/moorings are expensive, particularly so near cities
> * Poor transit options. Parking may be expensive or unavailable; buses may not run nearby; the marina may be in an inconvenient location.
> ...


I disagree, I have been living aboard full time at 48 degrees for 5 years and love it. Parking is free and abundant, my slip rent before I left was 238 plus 30 electric in the dead of winter. My marina had quite a few kids IE under 20 years old living quite happily on under 500 per month.


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## northptsailor (Jul 7, 2005)

To put this in perspective, I would have to pay almost $150,000 more then I paid in 2001 to duplicate my 3700 Tartan this year, but I am pretty sure I could duplicate my 2001 Passat for almost the same price. By the way, that boat purchace would include $13,000 more sales tax then I paid in 2001! I will be keeping my boat for a log time!


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> "To me that means the vast majority of new boats are small boats "
> Last I heard, over 90% of all new sailboats sold were 24' and under.


The strange thing about that is just about all you see advertised is boats over 40 foot. Seems from an advertizing point of view is that is what they want to sell, but not what is selling. Take for instance Catalina's website on the front page the only boats it looks like are in current 315, 355, 385, 445. At least that is all they show on there home page. The good thing about them is they really support there older models, but it is hard to tell what is legacy support and what is currently available.

I understand that the bigger boats likely have bigger profits, especially after financing. But even the Hunter site only shows big boats on there home page.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Whats said is that Valiant went out of business because they coulnd't sell enough V42s at $350-$400k. If they could have held on a couple more years, they'd have been in-line Catalina! And a Valiant is a lot more boat than a Catalina!


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

I bookmarked this post when it first came up. I've never tried to see if there are more up to date numbers, but these are eye-opening figures for the sailboat industry. In 2007:

14,158 hulls were produced...but of that total 11,265 were 19' or under leaving only 2893 over 19' ...2284 were 20-40'...40-45' were 609 and just 250 over 46'. Isn't it amazing how really small the sailing business is?

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/41284-sailboat-business.html


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

night0wl said:


> Whats said is that Valiant went out of business because they coulnd't sell enough V42s at $350-$400k. If they could have held on a couple more years, they'd have been in-line Catalina! And a Valiant is a lot more boat than a Catalina!


 Bob Perry got it right in my opinion:

*The design is 38 years old," said Perry. "I'm a boat designer, not a marketing guy, but it seems to me that you should update your product once in a while. They modified the boat somewhat, in some minimal ways, but it's still the same hull."....

Perry said given the market and the company's adherence to old designs, the only thing surprising about the announcement is that it didn't happen sooner.

"I think it's a miracle that they built the same boat for 38 years," he said. "I don't know of any other boat that's been in consistent production that long."
*

The Vailant was a great design, one of the best of its time...but maintain in production a 38 year's old design is ridiculous. They should have asked Bob Perry to design them a contemporary Valiant, to the state of the art, that they could have called Vailant II or something like that.

Regards

Paulo


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> And a base model Mustang is still an inexpensive car, only about 10x what you paid for it. Nice Boss 302 might run a bit higher, then or now, wouldn't it?
> 
> "To me that means the vast majority of new boats are small boats "
> Last I heard, over 90% of all new sailboats sold were 24' and under.


Could only afford the base model. 6 cyl engine, 3 speed stick. No synchromesh in first. I think it cost me nearly a years salary. But what a beauty! In the days when cars meant something.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> What was a fully loaded Caddy or Buick in 1970? $7000 ?
> And a gallon of gas was about 28 cents.
> 
> So, the car prices have gone up tenfold. Gas has gone up fifteen-fold. Rent has gone up tenfold, ditto insurance. And really, is pizza still 15 cents a slice?
> ...


I read somewhere that around the same time, the US took raised 3 times more money by printing dollars than by collecting taxes.

Regards,
Brad


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

There remains niche markets where new boats sell.
Those wanting the fastest thing afloat- These are beautifully discussed in Paulo's excellent thread.
Those wanting a certain level of excellence either n terms of aesthetics or overall performance,or strength/construction or all of the preceding. Like to think my current and "last" boat fits that category.
Those wanting a vessel for a dedicated purpose such as high latitude sailing or thin water and blue water sailing.
Those wanting a new boat inorderto to not deal with the headaches of refitting a vessel to their purpose.
Many of these people are not 1%ers rather "comfortable" and so driven by their dream they place a major segment of their resources to actuate their dream.


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## hotdogs (Mar 5, 2008)

barefootnavigator said:


> I disagree, I have been living aboard full time at 48 degrees for 5 years and love it. Parking is free and abundant, my slip rent before I left was 238 plus 30 electric in the dead of winter. My marina had quite a few kids IE under 20 years old living quite happily on under 500 per month.


I'm unclear why you disagree. I described factors limiting widespread adoption of old boat homes. You responded with an anecdote. It's not clear what a single datapoint proves.

If living on a boat year-round is _actually_ practical, affordable and comfortable, how do you explain why so few people do it? I've offered one explanation (ie, it isn't, so people don't). Can you provide an alternative explanation?


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

outbound said:


> ...
> There remains niche markets where new boats sell....
> 
> Those wanting the fastest thing afloat- These are beautifully discussed in Paulo's excellent thread.
> ....


Out, I post all types of interesting boats in my thread and not only for the ones that want a fast cruising boat.

You will find Voyage boats: Boreal, OVNI, Allures, Garcia, RM, Amel, Oyster, Gunfleet, Southerly, Nordship, Regina de Vindo, Cigale and many others are there.

I post all new mass production main market boats: Beneteau, Bavaria, Jeanneau, Dufour,Hanse, Delphia and many others.

I post about luxury cruisers like Halberg Rassy, Najad, Maxi yachts, Malo, Comfortina, Xc cruising yachts and many more.

I post about cruising catamarans and trimarans.

I post also about performance cruisers. You can find there all types of interesting boats and not only performance cruisers

Regarding that niche market you talk about I don't know exact figures but in Europe I am pretty sure that more than 3000 cruising boats are sold each here. You call that a niche market?

Regards

Paulo


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

PCP said:


> .Regarding that niche market you talk about I don't know exact figures but in Europe I am pretty sure that more than 3000 cruising boats are sold each here. You call that a niche market?


Yes, I call that a niche market. A rather small niche market. Boats in general, and sailboats in particular, are a luxury item, and a not terribly successful one at that. There is obviously some money to be made by sailboat manufacturers, but not much. People seem to be in the sailboat construction business for the same reason people buy sailboats: they love them. Think about it: according to Wikipedia, in 2007, the population of Europe was about 730 million people. For the sake of making the math easy (one of my primary goals in life), let's say that there are 7,300 cruising sailboats made and sold in Europe every year. That's a market penetration rate of 0.001%. The numbers in the US are almost exactly the same. If you look at that post I linked to above, the number of sailboat hulls over 19 feet long produced in the US in 2007 was about 2900. The population of the US that year was just over 300 million. That gives a market penetration rate of 0.00967. That rate gets much lower if you exclude hulls less than 40 feet long.

I think its the very definition of "niche" market.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Barquito said:


> Simple micro-economics. The price is what the market will pay. If there are not any buyers at a price that will make some money, then they wouldn't build the boats. I assume that there are so many more used boat than new boats, that the price of used will not change much if the price of new goes way up.


Macroeconomics !!!!!!! plus the fact of the quite large decline in the 'value' of $US and the fact that most of the components and materials are typically not made in the US but in countries whose currency 'values' have substantially and significantly increased vs. $US in the past few years .... the Renminbi Yuan (PRC) is now 30-40% higher in 'value' than just a few years ago.


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## JimM (Jul 4, 2007)

How will the used market be affected? This is a complicated question. My understanding is that a lot of the production boats being sold new now are bought by first-time buyers, people with more money than experience who want something easy to take care of, fun, and very pretty. It may be that an older Sabre or even a Morris is cheaper, in great condition and will hold its value much better. But that's not what they want. So I guess I would say that if YOU want a slightly used Hunter, Catalina or similar boat, you can probably do pretty well. And if you want an an older, better offshore and coastal cruisers, you can do real well. But if you are selling one of these, you better keep thinking of all the fun you had on it -- the boats are not necessarily going to go up in value because of the prices of new popular production boats. My thoughts -- for what they are worth.


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

Regarding size, the Dana 24 has been discontinued and the molds are up for sale. Kindof sad, really 

Also, there is another company that has bought the molds to two prior PSC boats, the Flicka 20 and Orion 27, and will be manufacturing new boats in the near future. I seem to recall an $85k pricetag associated with a new Flicka 20...


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

outbound said:


> Those wanting a new boat in order to to not deal with the headaches of refitting a vessel to their purpose.


See, therein lies my lack of understanding - unless you're planning on sailing around your immediate area, you're going to spend 1/3 of the original cost to make a new boat into a cruising boat. Unless of course it's one of these:










And in the experience of the few people I know who bought new, new boats are not exempt from equipment failure albeit under warranty. Problem is, warranty doesn't help when you're out at sea and the in-mast furler is jammed and you can't get main in or out from it's halfway-stuck position.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I doubt they will have much success in this Ikea boat market but 85K for a well built Flicka is completely reasonable to me. I loved my Flicka although cruising full time with my girlfriend and two small dogs left us wanting for 2 extra feet


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

O- been buying and selling boats for >30y. In my sixties. Don't much care about depreciation as ideally this boat goes up as part of my Viking funeral. Got just about same money in the boat as the house. House goes first. Spent hundreds of hours and untold dollars getting prior boats ready for sea. Fully know when you sell a boat you've restored you never see that money back. Still dealing with stuff to get my new boat up to snuff.but there is no question replacing through hulls, rebuilding engines, replacing standing rigging etc etc is a whole different degree of magnitude then messing with getting the best reception on the tv or sorting out the p.modem. Within the week my new boat was unloaded from the ship from china we were turning 200+ mile days up the east coast. Was it worth buying a new boat for the first time in my life. Damn right it was. Live the dream before you can't no more. Btw of the few outbounds sold used selling ( not asking) was very close to cost when new. Kinda like depreciation of a Volvo v a dodge. Whereas depreciation of European sports cars is even more rapid here. 
Paulo- I understand your Eurocentric view but there are some basic realities you repetitively ignore. Cost of design is a small fragment of total costs over a production run. If production house thought using a particular design house would noticeably increase profitability they would do so. Just because we are on the west side of the pond doesn't mean our moms had stupid children.
Regards


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Here is a tragic tale of a new boat 
The New Hunter Experiernce - SailboatOwners.com


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

Shinook said:


> Regarding size, the Dana 24 has been discontinued and the molds are up for sale. Kindof sad, really
> 
> Also, there is another company that has bought the molds to two prior PSC boats, the Flicka 20 and Orion 27, and will be manufacturing new boats in the near future. I seem to recall an $85k pricetag associated with a new Flicka 20...


Was there a listing for the sales of these molds?

I thought it would be interesting to be able to find a mold to build boats.

I would have thought a Flicka would be much higher in cost.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

hotdogs said:


> I'm unclear why you disagree. I described factors limiting widespread adoption of old boat homes. You responded with an anecdote. It's not clear what a single datapoint proves.
> 
> If living on a boat year-round is _actually_ practical, affordable and comfortable, how do you explain why so few people do it? I've offered one explanation (ie, it isn't, so people don't). Can you provide an alternative explanation?


I have lived aboard mostly in BC ,near 50 degrees north ,for most of the last 40 years, very comfortably. I have no desire to ever live on land again. My costs are around $300 a month. I haven't paid moorage in decades. I stay anchored.
My neighbours and clients say that their boat is the most comfortable dwelling they have ever lived in.
Some have the opposite experience. Why? Lack of insulation, and no good heat source. Many of my clients have tried living aboard uninsulated fibreglass boats , and found living in one is like living in a melting block of ice. The inevitable deck leaks don't help any. My clients all have steel boats sprayfoamed with about 2inches of urethane spray foam, the driest type of boat possible. I believe the main reason so many give up trying to live aboard is because their only experience with living aboard has been plastic, or much worse, wooden boats, with no insulation, nor adequate heat source. 
I use an airtight woodstove, which dries out even the wettest interior in an hour or two. My steel hull and decks have no leaks .Welding is the best bedding compound ever invented.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

miatapaul said:


> We seem to have more of a DIY restoration culture here and I don't see that changing anytime soon. And boats have gone up way more than the rate of inflation that is undeniable as shown in the numbers above.


Or maybe the rate of inflation is not what you are being told it is.

Regards,
Brad


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Brent Swain said:


> I have lived aboard mostly in BC ,near 50 degrees north ,for most of the last 40 years, very comfortably. I have no desire to ever live on land again. My costs are around $300 a month. I haven't paid moorage in decades. I stay anchored.
> My neighbours and clients say that their boat is the most comfortable dwelling they have ever lived in.
> Some have the opposite experience. Why? Lack of insulation, and no good heat source. Many of my clients have tried living aboard uninsulated fibreglass boats , and found living in one is like living in a melting block of ice. The inevitable deck leaks don't help any. My clients all have steel boats sprayfoamed with about 2inches of urethane spray foam, the driest type of boat possible. I believe the main reason so many give up trying to live aboard is because their only experience with living aboard has been plastic, or much worse, wooden boats, with no insulation, nor adequate heat source.
> I use an airtight woodstove, which dries out even the wettest interior in an hour or two. My steel hull and decks have no leaks .Welding is the best bedding compound ever invented.


Good post Brent. Would love to see a picture of your airtight woodstove. Do you have the double-walled flue for it?

Regards,
Brad


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

outbound said:


> ....Paulo- I understand your Eurocentric view but there are some basic realities you repetitively ignore. Cost of design is a small fragment of total costs over a production run. If production house thought using a particular design house would noticeably increase profitability they would do so. Just because we are on the west side of the pond doesn't mean our moms had stupid children.
> Regards


What's wrong with you? Some days ago without anything to support it you called me racist (regarding jews and Blacks) and didn't apologize when I showed that I never had mentioned Jews or Blacks and that acusation was not only unfounded but ridiculous.

Now you pretend that I am calling stupid to the Americans

You say regarding Catalinas and Hunters that they design it in the house and don't use a main NA because that increases their profitability while European brands like Beneteau or Jeanneau (designed by major NA) sell in America more than Catalina or Hunter It seems to me that it would be natural that Americans would prefer American brands, all the things being the same.

What kind of logic is yours? Not only the sales of Catalina and Hunter are very residual in Europe as European brands sell in America more than american brands and you conclude that they are designed in the house to increase profibality?

My point is that the reason the two main American brands are less competitive face to their European competitors has not to do with build quality but with a worse design, that is made in the house and not by the best NA.

What is your point (besides insulting me) regarding the lack of competitiveness of Hunter and Catalina regarding their European competitors?

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

mstern said:


> Yes, I call that a niche market. A rather small niche market. Boats in general, and sailboats in particular, are a luxury item, and a not terribly successful one at that. There is obviously some money to be made by sailboat manufacturers, but not much. People seem to be in the sailboat construction business for the same reason people buy sailboats: they love them. .....
> I think its the very definition of "niche" market.


You can only be kidding People are on the boat building business to earn Money...and lots of it. Sure, when the first boat of a new brand is built by an amateur or even by a professional that makes 2 or 3 boats a year we can probably talk about love (even if he had to pay employes and make a living), but regarding big companies that make more than 1000 boats a year and are owned by multinationals? You can only be kidding.

That does not mean that they do not make good boats because otherwise they will be out of business but they are there for making Money.

Regarding your idea of a niche market I don't get it. Do you have any idea of the Money involved and related with pleasure boats and namely with sailboats?

Regards

Paulo


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Paulo with all due respect all recreational boating motor and sail racing and cruising is a niche market. You are focusing on the sums involved. These in their entirely are less than perhaps 1% of the economy of other major sports such as our football or baseball or even golf. Less then a tenth of a hundredth of a percent of the population is involved in sailing at any level.
As regards the other issue you may want to reread the thread. I did not instigate those comments. It would appear they are held by others. I think you are are good soul but like some other teachers when you become overly pedantic you run the risk of being offensive without realizing it. None of us are perfect me most of all.


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

Cruisingdad said:


> So, a 31 foot Catalina, a production boat, will cost you roughly $171k


Makes me feel so much better for getting my Bluewater-ready 1974 Tartan 41 for well under 100k:
The Tartan 41 ? sailingwithkids.net

Especially as its a better boat than all this plastic crap.

And I am only barely in my 40's... not even curmudgeon material yet!


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## -OvO- (Dec 31, 2011)

"Or maybe the rate of inflation is not what you are being told it is."

The rate of inflation is usually equated to the change in the Consumer Price Index, which is the price of specific basket of goods and services that is purported to reflect the "ordinary" purchases of "ordinary" Americans. 

The price change of individual items in that basket may vary wildly from the overall CPI, which is why we see even ordinary things (like health care) can have price increases that routinely and significantly outstrip the rate of inflation.

But it may be that your own personal lifestyle doesn't track well with that of the "ordinary" American, and thus your own personal rate of inflation could be quite different. 

And sailboats aren't even in the index ...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

vtsailguy said:


> Makes me feel so much better for getting my Bluewater-ready 1974 Tartan 41 for well under 100k:
> The Tartan 41 ? sailingwithkids.net
> 
> Especially as its a better boat than all this plastic crap.
> ...


That has always two sides. Pick a 1974 boat and sail an old boat with all the reliability problems related with or bring it to its former glory an put it like a new boat. That means new sails, new rigging,shroud fixation replaced, new mast, new engine, the electrical system replaced, the electronics replaced, keel and rudder dismounted and brought to specs, shroud fixation, painting the boat. In the end you will spend more than what you have speeded in acquiring the boat and if you sell the boat you will found out that it will not sell for a lot more than what you have gave for it.

Buy a new boat and on the first two years you can have on the worst scenario a 30 or 40% loss in value.

Buy a 5 year old boat for 60% of its original value and you will have a loss of value for year of around 5% and you will not need to spend anything on the boat at least for two more years and then will have only to change sails and eventually running rigging (if you like to have a boat as new).

This, for the ones that can afford the initial cost, is by far the best solution in what regards money and quality.

Of course you will not have the top of the crop regarding performance and interior design but will have a much better boat than a 30 year old boat and one that in the end will not be more expensive, if you are going to keep it in tip top condition.

Regards

Paulo


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

PCP said:


> You can only be kidding People are on the boat building business to earn Money...and lots of it. Sure, when the first boat of a new brand is built by an amateur or even by a professional that makes 2 or 3 boats a year we can probably talk about love (even if he had to pay employes and make a living), but regarding big companies that make more than 1000 boats a year and are owned by multinationals? You can only be kidding.
> 
> That does not mean that they do not make good boats because otherwise they will be out of business but they are there for making Money.
> 
> ...


Every sailboat company that I know of started off as a small operation, including Benetau, Catalina, Pearson, Hunter, etc. That they grew to the point that they were bought by a conglomerate is beside the point. Yes, there is some money to be made in this business, but there are so few sailboats made that I don't see how you can call it anything but a niche market. There is more money to be made in the accessories market (electronics, clothing, etc.) than in the boats themselves.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

PCP said:


> That has always two sides. Pick a 1974 boat and sail an old boat with all the reliability problems related with or bring it to its former glory an put it like a new boat. That means new sails, new rigging,shroud fixation replaced, new mast, new engine, the electrical system replaced, the electronics replaced, keel and rudder dismounted and brought to specs, shroud fixation, painting the boat. In the end you will spend more than what you have speeded in acquiring the boat and if you sell the boat you will found out that it will not sell for a lot more than what you have gave for it.
> ...
> Buy a 5 year old boat for 60% of its original value and you will have a loss of value for year of around 5% and you will not need to spend anything on the boat at least for two more years and then will have only to change sails and eventually running rigging (if you like to have a boat as new).
> 
> This, for the ones that can afford the initial cost, is by far the best solution in what regards money and quality.


I'm not sure that I agree.

I'm picking a size range that I know fairly well, which is roughly 30' or 9 meters.

A 6 year old boat in this size is roughly $100k. In 10 years it will be worth roughly $50-60k. During that time I would need to replace sails and running rigging, and likely standing rigging. That is a cost of about $10k.

A 30 year old boat in this size is roughly $20k. In 10 years it will still probably be worth about $20k (assuming the market stays the same). During that time I will almost certainly need to replace sails, running rigging, and probably standing rigging. That is the same $10k. It will also likely need deck hardware rebedded, which is about 20-50 hours of easy DIY labor.

So on one boat I got massive devaluation, on the other I didn't. Both required similar dollar amounts of work. One required more labor.

Even if the older boat requires a repower it is still less of my money.


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

The trick, of course, is to find that older boat that the PO has just refitted........


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Bene505 said:


> Good post Brent. Would love to see a picture of your airtight woodstove. Do you have the double-walled flue for it?
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


I use the 4 inch by 14 gauge wall stainless you find in scrapyards here, from the pulp industry, for stove pipe . I have been using titanium below decks, which a friend gave me. Works well. The drawings for my stove are in my book.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Another of the things, for many of us, that makes the price of new boats seem so high is that our incomes have not kept pace with the price of new goods. Numerically, I make more than I did 13 years ago when I bought my new Catalina 320. At that time, I didn't really consider it much of a stretch to buy the new boat. Today, with the current new prices for the Catalina 315/355, I would not buy the boat because it's price compared to my income, and more importantly, to the amount that I am willing to commit to this hobby, is too high. Two major stock market down turns, a housing bust, a major recession that won't go away, and little or no interest on savings reinforce that position. And if there are lots of others like me, that does not bode well for the boating industry.

Catalina, at least, delivers their basic boat pretty well equipped, and options like autopilot, air conditioning, Bimini/dodger, and electronics are available, and the dealer typically commissions the boat, so the final price is easy to determine up front. Expenses after that are relatively modest on a new boat...insurance, slip fees, haul-out every two years for bottom paint, and a small reserve for unexpected items.

New vs. used: Initially, I was seriously looking at a used C320 that was a few years old, and which had some minor issues that needed addressing. The Catalina dealer handling the sale informed me that he could sell me a new boat for just a little more. It sounded like the right thing to do; I bought the new boat and have never regretted it. My boat, unlike that one Hunter that was referenced a few posts ago in this thread, was delivered as promised and has never had any significant problems and very few minor issues. The dealer did what was expected and promised.

Generally, I tend to buy new...cars, houses, boats. I believe that is the better way (just my take on things). There will be problems, old or new, but the problems tend to be more modest new (except for an occasional horror story). And there are warranties on new items. And there is a certain satisfaction and enjoyment in having something shiny new.
While it is true that you can buy a finer but used, fancy name boat for the same money that a new lesser name production boat costs, when you buy used, some significant part of the service life of that used boat is already consumed....standing rigging has been stressed, sails worn, gasket seals dried out, etc. One works hard for a certain lifestyle. For each of us, it is somewhat different. For me, I'd rather pay more up front and be spared lots of the work, expense, and difficulties encountered in trying to bring something old and worn back to life. i.e., I'd rather drive a new Jeep or Ford than a old model Range Rover or Mercedes. Others find pleasure in restoration work...I don't.

Paulo has mentioned that US boats (Catalina, Hunter in particular) are not modern designs and that European boats are taking part of the US market, while US boats have limited penetration in European markets. I can't really argue with that, but as a total package, my Catalina vs. Beneteau, and Jeanneau of the same size, seems to have heavier rigging, larger/more winches, larger engine, lead vs. iron keel, etc., so I don't see it as inferior to those two brands, and it might give a bit more for the money (not trying to get an argument with the owners of those two, as I like those too). 

As to those who encourage people like me to keep buying new, I also want to thank them for their preference for the old, second hand items, because it gives people like me a market for our old boats when we are ready to sell.

While I don't totally ignore resale value (and depreciation rate), that does not figure greatly into the situation for me. After all, the boat is not an investment, it is a hobby expenditure, and if I regain some significant part of the cost when I sell, that is good.
If I was worrying about depreciation and resale, I probably wouldn't be buying a boat anyway.


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## northptsailor (Jul 7, 2005)

I think more than anything, the decrease in home value has hurt the boating market. Even if you don't use a home equity loan to purchase a new boat, you are adding dept to pay for a boat which will depreciate and will not be offset by increase in home value.Not too long ago you could buy a boat knowing that your home would gain value faster than your boat would lose value.Very comforting for people approaching retirement!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

barefootnavigator said:


> I disagree, I have been living aboard full time at 48 degrees for 5 years and love it. Parking is free and abundant, my slip rent before I left was 238 plus 30 electric in the dead of winter. My marina had quite a few kids IE under 20 years old living quite happily on under 500 per month.


Maybe where you live it is reasonable. Down here, $34.50/foot from the tip of your anchor to the back of your davits plus electricity which ran us about $60/week ($240/month). A 40 foot boat here was running close to $2000/month!!! $6.00 per load of laundry. THere are cheaper places in Florida, but certainly more expensive than what you are talking about.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

night0wl said:


> Whats said is that Valiant went out of business because they coulnd't sell enough V42s at $350-$400k. If they could have held on a couple more years, they'd have been in-line Catalina! And a Valiant is a lot more boat than a Catalina!


Ever been on a Valiant? As someone who spent a lot of time at Cedar Mills, I will tell you that it takes a niche person to buy that boat. A V42 probably has less living space down below than your Bene 343.

Brian


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> I'm not sure that I agree.
> 
> I'm picking a size range that I know fairly well, which is roughly 30' or 9 meters.
> 
> ...


I'm too lazy, but, someone should take a look at some generic boat model that hasn't changed much in the past 20 years, and plot the selling prices (or at least asking prices) to see if they drop sharply, then level out. I would suspect there is still a sweet spot.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Barquito said:


> I'm too lazy, but, someone should take a look at some generic boat model that hasn't changed much in the past 20 years, and plot the selling prices (or at least asking prices) to see if they drop sharply, then level out. I would suspect there is still a sweet spot.


Yachtworld's "Table View" made it really easy to bring the info into a spreadsheet.

This is a chart of the asking price for a Catalina 30 from 1975 to 1995. I don't really see a sweet spot, it looks like pretty linear depreciation to me.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AnI_j1k0EPK2dGVibmQ4WEVjSjV6SmNTWU9jRENoTEE&output=html


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## hotdogs (Mar 5, 2008)

Minnesail said:


> This is a chart of the asking price for a Catalina 30 from 1975 to 1995. I don't really see a sweet spot, it looks like pretty linear depreciation to me.


Minnesail, thanks for pulling that together. It's a nice contribution of actual data to the discussion.

I looked around for other boats with a large number of listings. The Catalina 36 has 49 listings. The trendline is pretty close to linear, though the datapoints are mostly in a small cluster. I'll see if I can find other examples.


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> Was there a listing for the sales of these molds?
> 
> I thought it would be interesting to be able to find a mold to build boats.
> 
> I would have thought a Flicka would be much higher in cost.


I believe the Dana 24 molds were listed for $10k. They are still for sale AFAIK.

I'm not sure about the others, they were bought some time ago and I seem to recall it being a private transaction.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

NCC320 said:


> ...
> Paulo has mentioned that US boats (Catalina, Hunter in particular) are not modern designs and that European boats are taking part of the US market, while US boats have limited penetration in European markets. I can't really argue with that,....


For the record I did not have said that. What I had said was that European Major brands have their boats designed by some of the best world NA while American major brands have their boats designed in the house. In my opinion when you have the boats designed by the best you have better designs but that is not the same thing to say that the designs of Catalina and Hunter are not modern, whatever that is. I prefer the word contemporary meaning they are exemplar of the state of the art.

Regards

Paulo


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## hotdogs (Mar 5, 2008)

Wow, it's tougher than I thought to find boats that (1) have a large number of listings and (2) we produced across a long period of time.

I thought the J/24 would be a great candidate for this, but YW doesn't list many of them. The site seems to focus primarily on larger cruisers, which seem to be produced in smaller batches across shorter periods of time. Are there some makes or models that I may be overlooking?


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

hotdogs said:


> Wow, it's tougher than I thought to find boats that (1) have a large number of listings and (2) we produced across a long period of time.
> 
> I thought the J/24 would be a great candidate for this, but YW doesn't list many of them. The site seems to focus primarily on larger cruisers, which seem to be produced in smaller batches across shorter periods of time. Are there some makes or models that I may be overlooking?


From what I've seen of YW, it's more for brokers to list what they offer and the larger cruisers give them more commission from the sale.


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## Skipper434343 (Apr 4, 2014)

Did you have a look at the Delphia's ?
They are semi custom serious ocean sailing boats with amazing value.
At the Chicago Boat Show the sail away packages where:
Delphia 31 $149,000
Delphia 40.3 $289,000
Delphia 46cc $549,000
Delphia 47 $ 395,000
Check them out .

Andrew


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Skipper434343 said:


> Did you have a look at the Delphia's ?
> They are semi custom serious ocean sailing boats with amazing value.
> At the Chicago Boat Show the sail away packages where:
> Delphia 31 $149,000
> ...


The Delphia's are pretty nice, albeit slow, coastal cruisers, but I would never call them 'serious offshore sailing boats'. Frankly Elan seems to be a much nicer boat for the dollar.

(And if you are associated with Delphia you need to declare it per forum rules.)

Jeff


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Refurbish or buy new largely depends on the boat purchased. It is possible to buy an older boat and bring it to "as new" for a fraction of the price of a new comparable boat. The trick is finding the right boat.



PCP said:


> That has always two sides. Pick a 1974 boat and sail an old boat with all the reliability problems related with or bring it to its former glory an put it like a new boat. That means new sails, new rigging,shroud fixation replaced, new mast, new engine, the electrical system replaced, the electronics replaced, keel and rudder dismounted and brought to specs, shroud fixation, painting the boat. In the end you will spend more than what you have speeded in acquiring the boat and if you sell the boat you will found out that it will not sell for a lot more than what you have gave for it.
> 
> Buy a new boat and on the first two years you can have on the worst scenario a 30 or 40% loss in value.
> 
> ...


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## Chas H (Sep 6, 2013)

I decided soon after purchasing my current boat and putting almost one-third of the purchase price into repairs, improvements, additional equipment (some maybe quite frivolous) and slip fees the first season that I wouldn't concern myself with resale value. I only keep a loose account of how much it cost me to sail the boat each time based on the money I have in it. The second time out the price per trip was halved. 
-CH


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