# Sabre 42- comments appreciated vs IP



## lawdawg (Oct 12, 2010)

I have been narrowing down to IP35 and 38s, we are a couple heading out for two years to the Caribbean and the second year across the Atlantic and back with the ARC. I went on my brokers Sabre 34 Sunday and liked the build quality. I happened to see a Sabre 42 for sale in the same price range as the IP 35 and 38s I've seen. The Sabre is the shallow draft edition and the space and layout seem very comparable to the IP38. I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on comparing these boats or just general thoughts on the Sabre 42. I believe the Sabre may sail a little better in lighter winds and the 42 looks like it is big enough to get over some of the light tankage issues of smaller Sabres. Thanks for your thoughts!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Its like comparing the tortoise to the hare.

Sabre build quality is traditionally excellant. True American sucess story. IP are also built well....like tanks. 

IP- Full keel...stable, protected rudder, Good tankage, slow performer to windward

Sabre- Performance sailbaot


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

build and repair quality are great in the Sabre, but I am partial - owned a 38 for a few years. Sabre boats sail extremely well, are easy to sail and can be rigged for shorthanded sailing.

IP's were a bit pricey compared to the competition when I looked closely at them in early 2000, but well built and seemed to have been designed with maintenance in mind. Good tankage and as Chef says built like tanks. Although I don't like the "off white" color...many do. My slipmate loves his 38, and doesn't need to leave the cockpit to sail. Well built boats.

Either would be great,


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

lawdawg said:


> ...I believe the Sabre may sail a little better in lighter winds...


Now that is an understatement!! I think you'd find that the Sabre can sail MUCH better in light winds.

Whether it will when fully laden for a multi-year sabbatical, is another story. Some of that advantage will probably be lost when the Sabre gets heavily loaded.

As said, both boats have strong reputations. There are also some strong opinions about whether those reputations are deserved, particularly when it comes to I.P. You tend to hear a lot of negative feedback about them, from people who feel they can't sail for beans. But plenty of owners have defended their sailing ability, and there's no question that they have taken their owners far and wide in comfort.

One thing that would concern me a bit about that Sabre, is the spade rudder combined with the shallow draft keel. Speaking personally, that is not my ideal combination for ocean voyaging. But some would say that the I.P. keel/rudder combo is not much better. (I.P.'s rudder configuration is essentially a spade rudder connected to the full keel by a metal plate.)

That is a wonderful trip you're planning. Have you looked at any other boats beyond I.P. and Sabre?

P.S. Welcome to Sailnet!


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## lawdawg (Oct 12, 2010)

Thank you for all the great comments, I never expected such quick and well thought out replies! I will be leaving in February and so my search admittedly was a little limited as I don't have a lot of experience in this size of boat. I know that ideally one would take a year or two looking and narrowing down, but with my schedule, that is not really a possibility. We have a couple years to get out and do it before needing to be back. A friend has an IP42 and used to have a 38, that is where I started looking and though there are plenty of comments on their lack of 'speedy' sailing, I do like the fact that they are generally considered very safe, as 'chef2sail' said, tank-like. We are on a long cruise, so comfort and safety are top of the list, but it would be nice to get some speed as well. I sailed an IP35 this weekend and it certainly was a stable and solid boat, but it was a very light wind day and I can see where the comments about light-wind motoring come from, but like I said, definitely impressed with the quality of the boat. On Sunday I got on the Sabre and really enjoyed that as well, but that was a 34, and I'm sure quite a different boat than the 42 I saw online. The closest Sabre is a good 10 hour drive away, which is why getting some opinions is so helpful at this point. 
I've tried to do a good bit of research online, and have read tons of advice on boats at certain price boats, but when I pull up the specs, many are not under 6' drafts and I am looking for a boat without a canoe stern, which knocks out a lot of the often-touted boats like the Valiant. Undeniably a great boat, and one of the most proven blue-water boats ever, just everyone has their opinions on visual appeal. I'm trying to stay around the 120k mark with another 20k for refits before going. If I can get it for less, even better. 
Like I said, I think that ideally one would have more time to narrow things down, but with my situation I have tried to pick some boats that have a good reputation and also a fair number of examples that are for sale in that general price point. Again, thank you all for your thoughts, they are all very helpful!


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

lawdawg said:


> ....
> I've tried to do a good bit of research online, and have read tons of advice on boats at certain price boats, but when I pull up the specs, many are not under 6' drafts and I am looking for a boat without a canoe stern, which knocks out a lot of the often-touted boats like the Valiant. Undeniably a great boat, and one of the most proven blue-water boats ever, just everyone has their opinions on visual appeal. I'm trying to stay around the 120k mark with another 20k for refits before going. If I can get it for less, even better. ...


Okay, that helps some. I see you are on a bit of a timeline -- sounds like you are heading out next year?

It would be pretty easy to find a boat without a canoe stern -- since those are generally more the exception than the norm. Perry and Crealock drew most of them, but there are some others too like those designed by Gillmer and offered by Southern Cross.

I am curious about the < 6' draft requirement. Is it hard and fast, i.e. do you have a specific destination that is constrained by depth, or is your homeport shallow? A limitation of 6' draft won't hamper you too much in the 30-40+' range, but as the boats get longer/larger their performance will be increasingly hampered by shoal draft limitations. A lot of 40 footers come out a bit over 6' draft, so you lose a big swath of candidates when you have a hard cut-off like that.

Also, how many crew will be aboard? Is this a family sabbatical, or a just a couple? I ask, because with your budget and the size range of boat you are looking at, you will be restricted to some older boats. Whereas, if you do not truly need the space of a 40-footer, you could look at some mid-30-footers and come out with a newer boat. Smaller will be less costly to equip and re-fit, too.

Anyway, we have some lists running around here where folks have recommended boats for bluewater sailing, and also for bluewater sailing at a price point. I'll try to dig some up and post links here for you. I guess my point is there are lots of options out there besides Sabre and I.P. If you have alittle time it may be worth it to consider some other possibilities.

The perfect $100k circumnavigator

Dreaming of Bluewater

Offshore Cruising Boat List


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

check out Calibers. 5 ft draft, great blue water cruisers and they sail MUCH better than IP's though they are heavy boats and won't sail as well as a Sabre (but that is true of most cruising boats). I always thought Sabres were beautiful sailboats


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

kd3pc said:


> Although I don't like the "off white" color...many do.


 Geez ....... I thought I was the only one. The color reminds me the polyester beige in the 70's.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I second the Calibers. I like the Valiants also, but the canoe sterm appears to be an issue. Both boats have a turn of speed with good diplacement.

Dave


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## lawdawg (Oct 12, 2010)

JohnRPollard- yes, planning on heading out in February 2011, just the two of us. The under 6 feet is based on where I will be keeping it in Florida and also for the Bahamas. I started out in the mid thirties with the IP 35 and 38, then when I saw that Sabre 42, and even the 38, I just think they are beautiful boats and everyone seems to hold their sailing ability in high regard. I appreciate you posting those links and I've read through them all. I have read quite a few of your posts on here, and if there are any particular suggestions, I'd certainly research them. I know it can get a bit old having people constantly post these sorts of questions on here, but hopefully after I'm through this process I'll have a chance to contribute back down the line.  I am trying to narrow down to just a few manufacturers and boats to keep from getting overwhelmed in the search, and since I will probably be looking to sell it in about 3 years when I return, getting a boat with a good reputation and resale potential is part of the equation. I've probably gone through that Mahina list about 50 times and done searches on yachtworld for all different makes on that list, but often feel like I'm searching in the dark. Being in Atlanta, Ga. there aren't exactly a lot of boats nearby, so every time we take a quick trip on our weekends to check a few out it's 700 bucks on airfare and hotels. That's another reason why we are trying to narrow down to a few boats so that we can go see one, and at least have a feel for them without making 20 trips to see all different styles of boats. Hope this post wasn't too long and thank you again.
Thanks for all the comments on the calibers as well, much appreciated.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Lawdawg,

I think we're beginning to get a much better idea of where you are in your search. When you first posted, I got the impression you were just starting out. And, the Sabre vs. I.P comparison suggested you were pretty far apart in what you thought you might want.

Now it seems more like you are fairly set on the I.P., but just wanted to do a sanity check after seeing a few Sabres. Nothing wrong with that.

But if you weren't planning to join the ARC for an Atlantic crossing, I'd lean toward the Sabre. Others might disagree.

You could do far worse than an I.P. for the kind of sailing you plan. It's a safe bet, proven platform, with generally good resale value too. If you can stand one more thread, here's one specifically about Island PAckets. We had a lot of good input from several I.P. owners in that one.

At some point, you DO have to narrow down the options and start looking at individual boats. Especially on your short timetable, and given that you have to fly around to see them. So it sounds like you've got a good plan going.

My final bit of advice is to keep an open mind as you go around looking -- you never know what might be just a few slips down from an I.P. or Sabre.


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## lawdawg (Oct 12, 2010)

JohnRPolland,
I went down last weekend to look at a specific IP35. I understood that they weren't the best light air sailors, but a lot of comfort, quality and liveability with great factory and customer support. I thought the boat lived up to all my expectations in those areas. One thing I truly didn't like was the rack-and-pinion steering with the rod through the knees and the 'tiny' wheel. But, I could see where it gets its reputation, it just felt really solid, part of that probably due to the full keel and wide beam.
I also looked at and crossed off Endeavor 42 and a few others. Then I went out on a Sabre 35 and really liked the cockpit and I had heard about their quality. When I looked up the Sabre 38 and 42 on yachtworld part of me just thought....Wow, that is a gorgeous boat, and silly as it may sound, I really like the cockpit with the large wheel and pedestal. With the added length they even overcome some of my tankage concerns with the Sabre 35 size.
Yes, I could be very happy with an IP and may end up that route, but before I do I'm going to spend some time and go see some of the Sabres. There are little touches on both of them, like the fold up salon table to maximize room that I like as well. 
As I said before, I have read a lot of your posts, and if there are a few boats you think I should short-list I would certainly appreciate it.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

This has really turned into an educational thread for us lookers. Thanks guys.


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## Rickrv4 (May 29, 2007)

*Older IP's*

The older IP's had the steering wheel with the bar between the knees. That slowly went away with the newer models. If your interested in the IP 35 or IP 38 check out the IP 37. Basically a newer 38 with some improvements and minus the between the knees steering. IP model numbers take a bit to figure out. They have a great website IPY.com where you can look at all the past n present models complete with layouts and the like. Yachtworld.com is also a great place to look at pics and specs. Window shopping at its best. Also feel free to call IP any time if you have a question. You won't find a friendlier bunch. If your gonna cruise remember the ship you choose is also your home. I have a IP 32 and although I won't win any races when the wind howls I feel comfy and safe. If your interested in IP's I bet any owner you bump into would be happy to take you out or show you their ship. Its just that way with IP owners.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

RickRv4,

Great input and resources, there. 


lawdawg,

We'd love to hear how your search finally pans out. Keep us posted, and be sure to ask questions about any specific models (I.P.s, Sabres, ???) you zero in on, as we generally have at least a couple members who know any given boat fairly well.

Great trip you've got planned there, too. Best of luck.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I will be a little guarded in my comments, but here goes:

I live in SW Fl on our boat (wife, 2 kids, fat bulldog). The 6 foot draft is ok. There are many places you cannot go, but most of the time you can anchor a short way out and take your tender in. THat is always the most fun anyways. If you stick around 6, I would be surprised if you have many problems. And taht deeper draft will play in your favor when you get into the deeper water and are making longer runs (I believe they are more sure footed and point better). 

Do not underestimate the importance of sailing well. You can't carry enough fuel to motor across the Atlantic. And better performing (sailing) boats have a huge safety aspect to them. Case in point might be when we came across the gulf. We got caught in a gale. I was hooking across at 8.5 - 9.5 kts. It minimized my exposure (and absolute discomfort). Now when the seas hit 10+ feet, I don't care what boat you are on, it gets uncomfortable with some baots worse than others. But if you are making best time across, you will be much happier. Plus, better sailing boats will use less fuel. You will be in light winds all the time (we are). Bobbing around at 3 knots stinks and you will get real tired of it real quick and turn on the iron ginny. There goes your fuel. Better sialing boats can get away with less fuel because they sail... a novel idea on a sailboat, I know.

I sail CIRCLES around IPs and Valiants - and my boat is grossly overloaded with everything from legos and books to a very large solar array. The wind has to really start blowing for the IP's of the world to catch up and when the wind is howling like that, you aren't going to want to go out in the first place because the seas stink. Now if you are in the middle of the ocean, you have no choice. I understand that. But all the better time to have a good performing boat that can make the most of the light wind days and have superior control when it is not so light (like being able to point and being sure footed).

I have (duck and cover) always felt that Sabres were over priced Catalinas and IP's were overpriced (and over hyped) tankers. For example, the PHRF on my C400 is 102. IP doesn't make a boat at any size that approaches that number that I am aware of! Not even their IP45 which is in the 126! In some respects, we hate racing against them because you can arrive at the finish line when they are still rounding the first mark, AND THEY STILL BEAT YOU!! Now the sabre has a better PHRF than we have. But the cost, lack of fuel, and general livability of them pushed me away as an option. Bottom line is I think they are overall a better boat than a Catalina (Jeff will break in and tell me about their expensive hull layup, etc), but are they THAT much of a better, comparably sized, Catalina? And the key negatives of taking a Catalina 400 across the pond (spade rudder, low tankage, wide open cockpit, open saloon, etc) are exactly the same issues you face with a Sabre.

So no one hate me, ok? THese are just my opinions. But if I was serious about his locations, I would seriously consider buying a Passport 40 (PHRF 138... which is a crock because I have seen them running faster than that) or if I could talk him out of actually sailing his boat across the pond (use dockwise to ship it), put him in a production boat which would be perfect for everything BUT crossing the pond (though we have Catalina that do it). 

TO be clear on one other thing, I am not suggesting him buy a Catalina. I am not trying to tote the Catalina line. I am just pointing out some real negatives of the two boats he seems to be stuck on and trying to get him to consider other options, and why. Basically - don't underestimate the importance of performance. 

And lawdawg, I am in Fort Myers Beach right now. If you are in that area too, we would be happy to meet you and your wife and show you around our boat and what works for us and what does not. 

Brian


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Cruisingdad said:


> ...
> 
> Do not underestimate the importance of sailing well. You can't carry enough fuel to motor across the Atlantic. And better performing (sailing) boats have a huge safety aspect to them. Case in point might be when we came across the gulf. We got caught in a gale. I was hooking across at 8.5 - 9.5 kts. It minimized my exposure (and absolute discomfort). Now when the seas hit 10+ feet, I don't care what boat you are on, it gets uncomfortable with some baots worse than others. But if you are making best time across, you will be much happier. Plus, better sailing boats will use less fuel. You will be in light winds all the time (we are). Bobbing around at 3 knots stinks and you will get real tired of it real quick and turn on the iron ginny. There goes your fuel. Better sialing boats can get away with less fuel because they sail... a novel idea on a sailboat, I know.
> 
> ...


I could not agree more. Brian, there is still hope for you, I mean that you'll come to sail on a really fast cruiser boat

No kidding, the Island Packet was my favorite boat. Really was I swear... but that was 30 years ago . Well I have changed as a sailor, but the IP has not changed that much.

On the ARC you will not be able to catch up with almost any-boat and will be left far behind. If you like to sail alone, that's fine, but then why do you want to make the ARC? You could go alone and save the inscription rates

Regards

Paulo


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

And you know Paulo, I still would look seriously into shipping the boat across via Dockwise. Sailing that boat across will be expeisive too. Assuming no catastrophic failures, you will still put incredible wear-tear on the boat and she will have to be very heavily outfitted with all kinds of safety gear, extra sails, extra fuel, etc that you might not put on it if you were 'coastal' (within a few days of land). 

I also get the impression (maybe wrongly so) that the poster is not an accomplished long distance cruiser. And I mean this with no dissrespect, but that is a short time table to buy, prep, and learn your boat and do all of that. If you take the ARC out (or just sailing across the Atlantic), your option for boats now includes boats which I feel are much better suited for the bahamas and carribean (namely production boats like Bene, Jeau, and Catalina). The B40 is a nice performing boat and has a lot of hatches and light that you will come to appreciate as a live aboard. Remember, all cruisers are live aboards and we all (no matter what they say on the forum) want to be as comfortable as possible. You have to see this boat as your home, not a boat and not a weekender.

Anyways, don't listen to anything Paulo says. He will try and sell you an X yacht or Swan which he knows deep down in side is no where near as good or fast as a Catalina!! HEHE!


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

PCP said:


> ...No kidding, the Island Packet was my favorite boat. Really was I swear... but that was 30 years ago . Well I have changed as a sailor, but the IP has not changed that much....


Paulo,

I think what you really mean to ask, is: How Heavy is Too Heavy?


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## lawdawg (Oct 12, 2010)

Cruisingdad- Thanks for your comments and for the record I wish I had of posted this last week because I was near ft myers looking at the IP35 on Saturday and would have really enjoyed chatting with you. If you don't mind, and you can feel free to privately reply, but I would like a little more input on your choice with the Catalina v Sabre in that you mentioned tankage and livability of the Sabres pushed you off as an option. I general hear IPs regarded, if for nothing else, as good on tankage and storage. When I looked at the Sabres I compared the IP35 LOA 38 with water 90/fuel 48 to the Sabre42 LOA 41.9 water 120/fuel 40, and it seemed that the larger Sabre came close to overcoming some of the tankage concerns of the smaller ones. You also mentioned that you had reservations about the livability of the Sabre and I would greatly appreciate why? Obviously this will be our home for quite some time!
You were correct, I don't have long distance cruising experience, and no offense taken, your thoughts are very helpful. I have mainly daysailing with a little coastal, and will help take an IP42 from Sarasota to the Bahamas in November. We were planning the first year in the Caribbean to get to know the boat and then the following year heading over in April and then back with ARC in November, winter in the islands and then back to the 'real world'.  I guess a crossing has just been something we have both wanted to accomplish on our bucket list so to speak. 
Once again, everyone has been incredibly helpful!


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

lawdawg said:


> ...) I guess a crossing has just been something we have both wanted to accomplish on our bucket list so to speak. ..


That's a great ambition. You'll probably come back in a few years after having crossed a couple times in your I.P., and give the rest of us an "education."

For my money, a newer I.P. 35 would be more desirable than an older I.P. 38. Assuming proper equipment and maintenance, I wouldn't hesitate to cross in a boat like that. Whereas, I'd want a much larger Sabre before I felt reasonably comfortable.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Most of the time I agree with CD. I do agree very much in the sailing characteristics of his post Sailing ability does matter a lot.

To say a 42 foot Sabre is an overpriced Catalina is quite a stretch though. Catalinas would like to be mentioned in the same line, but sorry afraid not. I have respected the Catalina brand and build line always thinking it as step better than the other production boats. Catalinas have good resale value compared to other production boats. They dont change designs every 3 years or model numbers. I like their design in many ways. I have done enough blue water sailing to recognize though that build quality of the hull, deck/ hull joint, bulkheads is important. I will let Jeff also talk about their hull laminating and fabrication comparisons. The cockpit is not at all similar. The Sabre is much smaller and less dangerous in a seaway. Less area to get pooped. Catlina is designed to cruise...mainly coastally. Sabres are that plus are a fast boat. Again no comparison except in very very light winds. Sabre with 100% fore triangle sports a robust 901 sqft while the Catalina is a respectable 808. Sabre displacement is 24,000 while the Catalina comes in at 19,700 which creates a disparaging difference in Displacement length ratio from 230 for the Sabre to 188 for the Catalina. While the Sabre is faster, it has the heft in the larger seas also. 

As far as inside comfort, I see very few advantages that a Catalina has over a Sabre. Putting aside individual preferences one does not rise above the other. CD I respect your authority when it comes to the Catalinas, as you own one. Dont you also have some connection in your job with the Catalina Company? I do not say that to impugn your itegrity as I have always found you to be straightforward and honest and have enjoyed your posts and fairness as a moderator. I have to in this case part ways with you. Your analysis of Sabre is inaccurate. I hope some of the Sabre owers step forward and talk about their boats here as they know more about them then I do. If someone gave me a choice between a Sabre 42 or a Catlina 40 for the application lawdawg is stating here, I would not think twice all things being equal in the condition of the boats. Sabre hands down.

By the way I do agree with CD about the Passport. Robust...good living conditions....good tankage....very underestimated in the their speed
Dave


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> ..Dont you also have some connection in your job with the Catalina Company?..


Dave,

I know CD well enough to know that he equally respects your input and would take no offense at your post or any differences of opinion.

But in case Brian/CD is absent for a while (as he sometimes is nowadays with being a full-time live-aboard), I just wanted to reply to the point about CD being employed by Catalina.

To the best of my knowledge, CD has no affiliation with Catalina other than being a loyal owner (he's on what, his 3rd or 4th Catalina?) and a Technical Editor for the C400 Association newsletter. That Tech Ed position is to the best of my knowledge a volunteer slot for the C400 Association. Probably pays about as well as these Sailnet moderator positions.

Unless CD chimes in and says otherwise, I wouldn't want anyone assuming he's on the Catalina corporate payroll.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

John,

I do respect his opinions very much always have. Always will. As I do yours. As I said I was not trying to impugn CDs reputation at all, not my intent. I think he is somewhat proud (biased) as we all are about the boats we own. I knew he didnt work for Catalina as it would be hard for him to be a moderator here. He has always been fair and impartial and I enjoy reading him more than most of the others because he makes sense. He has strong feelings about his boat to the point he is the technical editor for the 400 catalina, and I think that is somewhat why he was/ is so passionate with his opinion. I love that he has involved his family in his passion and his dream. He truly is living his dreram. CD obviously should appear on Grill Masters on the Food Channel though.

People who boats for cruising with children may find features which are more important than a couple cruising. 

I thought he was off base comparing Sabres and Catalinas, thats all. Now if CD wanted a true challenge with a Sabre he would challange the 42 to see which boat could "wear" the most grills. I think Catalinas would win hands down.

Brian no offense intended. You are one of my favorites here. BTW If you ever come up to the Chesapeake I sure a grill cookoff could be arranged between you, Shawn (T37chef), and I.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

My money is on CD to blow up the most food... 


> BTW If you ever come up to the Chesapeake I sure a grill cookoff could be arranged between you, Shawn (T37chef), and I.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

There is already a technique for singined food on the outside,,,rare on the inside "Pittsburging". Or did you mean he would just blow upo his grill..**:**)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Given his track record... blowing up just the grill would be a good thing for him.


chef2sail said:


> There is already a technique for singined food on the outside,,,rare on the inside "Pittsburging". Or did you mean he would just blow upo his grill..**:**)


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

lawdawg, there are also a lot of Sabre 38's with a keel stub and centerboard. I've got mixed feelings about inaccessible moving parts under the waterline, but they are sweet boats and if depth is a factor, it might be worth looking at those too.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

Sorry for joining this so late. I'm on travel to the Channel Islands - 2200 miles from the Bay!

Obviously, I'm a huge fan of Sabres. Victoria is our second (we had a 28 for 17 years) and they are extremely well made are no better than an IP. Just different. For a really great summary, pick ip a copy of The World's Best Sailboats - Vol II. Both are profiled. I do my own work and know these boats intimately from bow to stern, so if you have any questions, please IM me. I'll can answer most questions is reasonable depth, having owned the brand since 1987.



> 42 foot Sabre is an overpriced Catalina


Clearly, the writer has not spent much time on a Sabre. Sorry if that insults, but my father owned 3 Catalinas (22, 27, 30) and I worked for two dealers so I know those boats quite well too. One is a coastal cruiser and the other is offshore capable. I like Catalina, but the statement is not at all accurate.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Hey, I will respond in a bit. First though, I have ZERO affiliation with Catalina other than being the tech editor for the 400s. That pays ZERO and is nothing but another freebie I do to help out the sailing community (and because no one else would do it).

I will get back wtih more commetns. The Sabre is a better boat... but many of the things I find undesirable in the Catalina for offshore work I also find undersirable in the Sabre. And there are things I actually find more desirable in the catalina that I don't in the sabre... but just hand tight. I realize that the sabre is a better built boat and jeff wil start in about the hull, etc. But my questin was whether it was that much of a better boat and if your intentions are to cross the pond, then is it the right boat at all? Not to say that a Sabre cannot and has not done it... but so has a Catalina(s). And if you are not buying to cross the pond, why bother with it at all?

And remember guys, these are my opinions and I will clearly lay out why they are my opinions and why I feel the way I do. But I also have kids and things that are important to me are not important to others. And I mentioned Catalina, but will also throw out Bene and Jeau as another option. But just hold on while I take care of a few things and don't label me a Sabre hater (snicker... that was a bit of a joke). As far as the IP... well, no comment.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Part I​
I think this will make for a good discussion and I encourage all IP, Sabre (and anyone else) to jump in. I will lay out what I like, what I don't like, and why. In general, I hesitate making statements against a particular boat because everyone gets so sensitive about it. And believe me, IP and Sabre owners, you don't put up with half as much crap as I do about boat choice!! Much of the time it is joking around stuff... but I am always talking about this.

Now, these are my opinions. My opinions are just that - my opinions. They are no more wrong or right than your opinions. As I said before, I will lay out why they are my opinions and what I look for and what I like and why. SO again, just don't get sensitive anyone. And chef2sail - you would never offend me and I think the world of you and your posts. That was got to be the nicest, "CD, I think you are full of crap" posts I have ever seen! I mean that as a sincere complement.

Just want to say one more time that I almost never do this because people get sooo sensitive about it and their boats. No one has as of yet, but please don't get frustrated with me as I lay out why I feel the way I do.

SO here goes...

I stated above that the Sabre was a better boat than the Catalina and I stand by that. I also will stand by my feelings that it is little more than an expensive Catalina (IMHO) or Beneteau or Jeauneau. I have always felt that the Sabre was designed as a performance cruiser and they have done a very good job at it. I am fairly confident she would outrun my 400, assuming all things are equal. Sabre has built a reputation of building a fine yacht and they take a lot of pride in their work and their boats. If you have not done so, please go to Sabreyachts.com and follow their excellent website and videos on production. I wish they would have gone into more detail on why they have done some things they have done and philosophies (which we will get into here), but a good general overview none the less.

I am going to use Catalina as my example here, though I think it stands for Jeaunneau and Beneteau too... but I know that Catalinas better so will keep them as the boat I refer back to. But, with some exceptions, you can substitute bene and Jeauneau where ever I put Catalina.

I am not the expert here, so I will lay this out as I have understood it. There are a gazillion details that Jeff_H could lay out better than me because he enjoys boat construction details a lot more than I do. Instead, I focus on generalities.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Part II​
Sabre uses a vacuum bag/divincell construction for their boats.Why do they do this and is it better? Yes, it is a better manufacturing technique to a point because it allows them to produce the same stiffness and strength but with less weight. In performance cruising, weight is the key - or one of the critical keys. This process is a more expensive, more time consuming process that creates a lot more waste and is more involved. I cannot remember if their hulls are cored above the waterline (not the deck, the hull), but it seems that I remember that being the case. If they are cored, that is a huge negative for me on a cruising boat. Now Sabre can get away with this production technique because they make a lot fewer boats than Catalina and their customers will pay for that extra performance their boats will yield. If they built to the scale Catalina does, it would be a considerably more involved and expensive boat. I would almost argue that they cannot build to Catalinas numbers as there is too much waste and involvement to make that work at scale.

Catalina's hulls are all hand laid glass. They are not cored at all. Like Sabre, Catalina does use a lot of E and S glass in critical areas. But the ending product is that the hull is a heavier, thicker hull (I have to assume). Why do I prefer this? I prefer a solid glass, relatively thick hull because sooner or later (or fairly frequently in my case), you are going to run aground, hit something, etc. For this reason I am totally against cored hulls for cruising and it is why I also prefer a thicker, solid glass hull (to a point). I want the bulk... not Tayana kind of bulk, but a medium compromise for me. This is my preference and others are fine to disagree.

As far as the displacement of the boats... I can tell you that a C400 is nowhere near 19500 lbs. I think I measured in at 22-24ish when I bought the boat and am now at 27,500. I would be very pleasantly surprised if my 400 was foot-foot lighter than a sabre. I think the 400 would be better served trying to shave off some weight... but I don't know where they are going to do it from as (you will shortly see) my preference would be for them to do some things like Sabre that would add weight.

Tankage. I think the Sabre is very low on tankage. My 400 comes with 44G of diesel and we can easily add another tank to almost double that (if any 400 owners want to discuss this with me, let me know though I talked about it in the last Mainsheet). I like the Sabre over an IP or Tayana because I really believe they will get sailed more and are a better performing boat, but in the end, you still have to charge your batteries, run your generator, and will end up doing a LOT of motoring. That is just life. And I have frustrations with the tankage I have right now... not to talk about what I would need to do to get the thing ready to cross the pond (Atlantic). The water tankage is the same between our boats and I find that to be something less of a factor because of watermakers. I will also say that we spent ten days in the Tortugas (Wife and two kids with me) and we actually came back with some water. That included showers sometimes twice a day... so I think the water tankage is adequate, especially if you add a watermaker.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Part III​
Rudder. I think the rudder on boat boats is exposed. On that I have to give the Tayana/IP's of the world a big plus.

Deck. Catalina cores their decks as I am certain Sabre does too. I am not sure about all the Sabre, but I will tell you that Catalina lays solid glass around all of the openings (Hatches, vents, etc) to prevent any future delamination (water seeping into the balsa). Anywhere and everywhere there is a deck breach, Catalina uses solid glass. I believe the new Sabres use a foam (Airex) core which is probably a superior coring and may again make for a lighter boat.

Hatches. Well, here comes a big positive and negative. I like a boat with a lot of hatches. I sail south and there are times when it does not get out of the 80's at its coldest at night. The 400 is loaded with hatches... much more than the 426. That makes the 400 a very light, airy boat and comfortable down below. The negatives of hatches is obvious. Though I have always wondered how many hatches have really been ripped off of boats and in what conditions?? Still, I like a lot of air.

Dorades. Here is a big plus for the Sabre and IP's, etc. I really, really like dorades. I am very likely going to install some on our 400. Why? Because when you are underway and it is hot (always for us), you are not leaving your hatches open unless it is very calm or you are motoring, or both. We have two hatches we can leave open on our boat and still sail, but we still take water into them periodically. Same with the portlights. So a boat with ventilation while underway is a much more comfortable boat. Even when it is cold, if you can ventilate the boat, you will reduce the moisture down below and make for an all out more comfortable ride. Catalina should incorporate this.

Portlights. I am a much bigger fan of the portlights of the Sabre. I assume they use Bomar? No matter, a SS hatch with screw down dogs is a far better hatch in my opinion and it looks better. Catalina does not do this because of cost. However, those can be changed out and we have had owners do that.

Hull-Deck Joint. Not all Catalinas are made the same. Not sure who knows this, but the C400, C470, and the new 445 all use a Internal Flange Hull-Deck Joint. None of the other Catalinas do. This is an expensive joint. Basically, you have two solid pieces of glass overlap each other and are chemically bonded. Then, they use the toe rail (these boats have aluminum toe rails) that are T-bolted through the flanges every inch or so along with the stanchions. The final product is a deck joint that is very solid (I am told more solid than the hull and deck around it) and is mechanically and chemically connected. I believe the Sabre uses the same hull-deck joint.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Part IV​
Rudder/Post - The new Sabres use a Carbon Fiber rudder post (much lighter) whereas Catalina uses solid stainless. I am not sold on that yet for that purpose but it does shave off more weight on the sabre. I would be surprised if the old sabres use Carbon fiber posts. I also would be surprised if their old boats use foam coring.

Interior/Finishout - Sabre. I strongly prefer teak (which is what Catalina uses), but the Sabre finishout is superior. They put in more cabinetry and take up the available space much better than the Catalinas do. This has long been one of my frustrations/complaints about Catalinas is that they don't put in enough cabinetry. I actually spoke to Warren at Catalina about that this morning and it is all about cost. I guess they figure that the cost factor would be better having the customer do it after market versus them raising it across the board for all boats of a model. I proposed him having an option for a 'cruising package' instead which took up more of the available space. Who knows?

Layout inside - This is all personal preference folks. This is very subjective to the person. But I will tell you what I like and why and that will be very different for everyone. So there is no right or wrong answer here. I would not buy a live aboard boat without a separate shower in its own stall. The spray goes everywhere and makes a mess. Plus, it is apt for mold if you cannot easily get to every available spot. I also do not like any wood or teak in my shower. It looks pretty but is apt to mold and is a maintenance frustration (my dad's T42 has lots of teak in the shower and he is always having to air it out). Next personal preference - The V berth is the most comfortable place to sleep in... but the hardest to get out of. I like a large bed that I can roll out of. Why? I get up in the night to pee or she does. I get up at night to check the anchor. I come to bed late after reading. Etc, etc... but the bottom line is that I want a berth that I can get in/out of that does not disturb my partner. Plus, it is a LOT more comfortable not having you feet up against the other person. That is why I do not like the Sabre arrangements that I have seen. On my 400, I have a full size (nearly king size) bed. I wish I had more head room, but it meets all of our personal requirements. I also have a separate shower stall and LOTS of fiberglass. I think it is a much better live aboard set up.

Component and accessibility - This is a big plus of the Catalina... and I would assume the Sabre has a similar motto - make everything capable of being removed. When they build these boats, they lay all the furniture and wiring runs in them while the top is off. You will see this in the pics. They do this because it makes production a lot faster and a lot less expensive (BTW, just a side note, but did you know that Valiant does NOT do that... they run most of their stuff afterwards to assure it will all be accessible... interesting side note on why you pay more for a Valiant). Anyways, everything on your boat will break one day and you need to be able to access it and replace it. Catalina has long done that. I simply do not know about the Sabres, but I would assume they have done the same. Also, Catalina lays a lot of wiring and plumbing runs that are easy to follow and pull more wiring through. This is especially important on boats with liners because that accessibility under that liner is difficult. So having a tube to pull all your wiring through is a positive.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Part V​
Tabbed Bulkheads - Sabres, hands down (at least I think they are tabbed). Catalina does not tab (glass the bulkheads to the hull/deck). However, I am unaware of a failure of a large Catalinas bulkhead. Just so you know (on the larger boats), Catalina glasses in a 'lip' and mechanically fastens their bulkheads with screws. I guess you could come back and glass them in, but again, I am unaware of a failure of a bulkhead on a large boat.

Sugar Scoop/Step Transom - This is a huge one for me. I would almost put it in the deal breaker. As a live aboard/cruisers, we are ALWAYS on the tender. We are always getting on/off. We are always swimming off the back. My dad has a canoe stern (Tayana Vancouver 42) and many other boats have swept back/standard sterns and I HATE getting on/off those boats. And I can only assume getting someone unconscious on board one of those boats in a sea would be a nightmare if not very difficult (and without some type of winching, impossible for many people). Not to mention, I personally feel that davits and/or an arch is a must for a cruiser and it has always looked awkward to me for the swept back or other boats without a sugar scoop putting them on. It totally screws up the lines. I believe the 426 offers a step transom which is at least some improvement, but many of their other boats (including an option on the 426 is I am not mistaken) do not have it at all. You are going to hate taking the dog to shore, having guests over, (getting the kids on for me), etc with that transom. I do. I have experience with both and would not trade the sugar scoop.

I am sure I will come up with a lot more things to discuss about the two boats. In the end, I believe Sabre makes a better boat. There are things they do that you simply cannot replace (hull material/mfg process - which is not necessarily a positive for me but makes a better performing boat), and there are things Sabre does which make it a better boat which can be changed (access through the liner on the Catalinas, add more cabinetry on the Catalinas, SS Portlights with Dogs, Dorades, etc). There are also things about the Catalina which make it a better choice for us that you cannot change on the Sabre - the sleeping arrangement, totally separated and enclosed shower stall, Sugar scoop stern. But I think Catalina (or Bene or Jeauneneau) has gotten an unfair reputation as a coastal cruiser and cheap boat. I wonder how many Sabres have crossed the Atlantic compared to Beneteaus? How many Sabres have circum'd compared to Benes? An interesting thought.

So that is why I have said that Sabres are, to me, an expensive Catalina. Their build quality and much of their hardware is better. Their hull manufacturing is potentially a better process (I have my concerns). It should be a faster boat. But there are many things they do which make their boats a more expensive boat which you can also do on a production boat. And depending on where you are going to take the boat, I am not convinced that the things which Sabre does to make their boat a 'better' boat will be a big positive.

These are my opinions and I welcome any criticism.

Brian


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Jesus Brian, that is quite a post 

I don't know both boats to make a comment, except in what regards design. The Catalina hull seems to be a more modern one, at least on what concerns the stern. There are a thread that explains why modern boats have broader sterns and why they are a better option (and that does not mean necessarily beamier boats).

The Sabre hull design looks like a 15 or 20 year's old European design.

Comparing with Jeanneaus, Beneteaus and Bavarias, both has no, or very small bulbs while modern European boats have almost all its keel weight on a big bulb on the Keel bottom. For having the same righting moment of a bulbed keel in a keel without bulb a given boat has to have many more hundredths of Kgs to compensate. This results on an heavier boat needing a bigger Ballast/Displacement ratio for the same effect and in a slower boat. 

Regards

Paulo


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

In my visits to the Saber dealer in the marina i sail out of 

They have two used 42s for sale at 250k each

Saber dumped the small lower cost models long ago the current stuff is only 4 boats ( Sabre Spirit (36'), 386, 426 & 456)

All of which have so much brightwork and white Awlgrip carbon parts there kind of scary to even sail on one  for fear of dinging something because theres something to ding bow to stern


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

PCP said:


> Jesus Brian, that is quite a post
> 
> I don't know both boats to make a comment, except in what regards design. The Catalina hull seems to be a more modern one, at least on what concerns the stern. There are a thread that explains why modern boats have broader sterns and why they are a better option (and that does not mean necessarily beamier boats).
> 
> ...


I think the new Sabre 423 is a pretty fast boat. Nice design, but not a really modern boat with plumb bow and removeable bowsprit, etc. I am not sure it is fractional.

This is a really cool boat. I am excited to see Catalina making some nice changes. WHatcha think?? Catalina 445 boat test and boat review

Fractional rig, removeable bowsprit, plumb bow, sa/D 16.7... I like it. It is also a break from Catalina tradition in that they cored the hull above the waterline and glassed in the stern/deck/hull versus that rediculous hull deck joint thing that Beneteau does. Looks a sweet ride.

Brian


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## lawdawg (Oct 12, 2010)

Wow.....don't really even know where to begin after you took all that time to write up quite an informative and enlightening post...or 5 
That was such a great comparison of the two and I hope that anyone looking at either of these boats sees that. I read over it more than once, and I know you mentioned tankage was about the same, but Sabre had better storage, but it seems like in a lot of aspects the build quality, while you said is slightly higher on the Sabre, sounds very similar. So, I'm left wondering why people view the Sabre as a more competent boat to 'cross the pond with' as you phrased it, versus the Catalina? By people I am referring to what I have read in reviews posted on places like here and cruiser forum. Once again, I know you are busy and can't thank you enough for taking the time to do that, I am sure that there are a ton of people that will really get a lot out of your efforts, including myself!


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

We saw the 445 in the Around Long Island race this year and it was and impressive boat and had the removeable bowsprit 

It had about the best looking in mast mainsail i have seen and they looked comfy racing with all the dodger/bimini stuff up


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

lawdawg said:


> Cruisingdad- Thanks for your comments and for the record I wish I had of posted this last week because I was near ft myers looking at the IP35 on Saturday and would have really enjoyed chatting with you. If you don't mind, and you can feel free to privately reply, but I would like a little more input on your choice with the Catalina v Sabre in that you mentioned tankage and livability of the Sabres pushed you off as an option. I general hear IPs regarded, if for nothing else, as good on tankage and storage. When I looked at the Sabres I compared the IP35 LOA 38 with water 90/fuel 48 to the Sabre42 LOA 41.9 water 120/fuel 40, and it seemed that the larger Sabre came close to overcoming some of the tankage concerns of the smaller ones. You also mentioned that you had reservations about the livability of the Sabre and I would greatly appreciate why? Obviously this will be our home for quite some time!
> You were correct, I don't have long distance cruising experience, and no offense taken, your thoughts are very helpful. I have mainly daysailing with a little coastal, and will help take an IP42 from Sarasota to the Bahamas in November. We were planning the first year in the Caribbean to get to know the boat and then the following year heading over in April and then back with ARC in November, winter in the islands and then back to the 'real world'.  I guess a crossing has just been something we have both wanted to accomplish on our bucket list so to speak.
> Once again, everyone has been incredibly helpful!


I like Catalinas for what they are but would not consider for a moment taking one across the Atlantic. They are a great value but they are coastal cruisers and are built much lighter than a Sabre. I wouldn't put it into the mix for what you are considering.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I honestly don't see where a stock Sabre would go that my stock Catalina would not. But it is a faster boat. And though some of those hardware and cabinetry things I mentioned may seem tripe, they are in fact quite expeisive.

Money not an object and stuck with the choice of staying between Maine and Venezuela, and having to choose between a Sabre or a Catalina, I would choose the Sabre. I just don't see where the Sabre excells at anything. It's not extraordinarily fast like a Farr or X, it's not luxurious like a Taswell or Oyster, and its not cheap like a Bene or Catalina. They seem to do a lot of things good, but nothing exceptional. That does not mean that the boat you are looking at is not a good boat and I think you should give it serious interest. I mean that. I like it. Dollar for dollar, I would almost certainly choose it over a comparable production boat. THe question then comes into play: what is comparable? 

I really would look into a Passport 40.

And again, these are my opinions. I am not the expert on any of this stuff. I am only giving you my opinions and why I like what I like and what I look for. What I like and what is good to me is not good for others so mileage will vary. For example, there is this dog I know that swears by multihulls... Not taste, I tell ya. No taste!! (that is sailingdog, btw!!!)

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

CBinRI said:


> I like Catalinas for what they are but would not consider for a moment taking one across the Atlantic. They are a great value but they are coastal cruisers and are built much lighter than a Sabre. I wouldn't put it into the mix for what you are considering.


Depends on teh Catalina. And quite candidly, I wouldn't take a stock Sabre across the Atlantic either. My opinions.

And I need to be very clear about something - I am not suggesting the Catalina is as good the Sabre. I have said about twenty times it is not. What I am saying is that I don't see the sabre as soime exceptional offshore cruiser either. For the money, it would not be my first choice of boats to go across the Atlantic with. I am not even sure it would hit the top ten. Neither would a Catalina - though people have done it in both of them. And if you are not going to cross teh Atlantic then you would be perfectly fine with a production boat in the islandes. Heck - that's what they are made for.

I do not want anyone on here calling Sabre and telling them that CD is saying that a Catalina is as good as a sabre and all that. That is absolutely not true. I am simply trying to make a point and doing a poor job of it.

Brian


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## AlanGSYS (Aug 11, 2010)

*Sabre*

I enjoyed the posts on Sabre vs other boats. Lots of good information here.

There are certainly lots of cored hull boats that have made transoceanic offshore passages and I don't agree that solid glass hulls are the only choice here. Sabre does not promote its Stability Index much (as does Island Packet and others) but I exchanged some email a while back with Sabre hull designer Jim Taylor and convinced him to buy the software to do the STIX analysis on Sabre hulls. I'm looking at his email now and the STIX for the S-426 checks in at 43.4 well above the Island Packet 370 at 43 which is generally acknowledged as an offshore capable vessel. Euro rating of A ocean requires STIX of 32 as a minimum and is more achievable by productions builders, and STIX of 40 is more often regarded as bluewater suitable by many.

And US Sailing Stability Index for the Sabre 426 is above 123 which exceeds the 115 minimum allowed for entry in the Bermuda Race and which is also quite high for any production boat.

The Sabre 426 also offers as do many Sabres, a sacrificial rudder that is designed to shear off on serious impact leaving about 50% left to get the boat home. And the flexible carbon fibre bearings which are the only carbon fiber you'll find on a production Sabre, are designed so that the rudder (or at least what's left of it) will be able to be turned with autopilot or emergency tiller steering. Otherwise the bearing can be jammed on impact and rendered inoperative.

When it comes to pure boat handling it is hard to get the responsiveness of a spade elliptical rudder.

A while back I was discussing the Catalina 42 and the Sabre 426 with another yacht broker. Although we both agree that the Catalina 42 is one of the best value sail boats ever built, he was wrestling with how any one would buy a Sabre 426 for upwards of $450K vs a Catalina 42 at 250K or so. He said the Catalina 42 had more room and storage and gave a great ride with lots of great features and that the Sabre was off the charts with respect to price.

I told him he's right but he's missed the point. The question is not why Sabre is so much more than a Catalina, but rather how can Sabre give you 80% the boat you can get from a Morris 42 for half the price. That is closer to the standard Sabre is building to.

Although you may not choose a Sabre if all you were doing is trans oceanic crossings, you certainly would have a boat that is fully capable of making those crossings, and when you are gunkholing in the Bahamas and sailing around the bays, you will be doing so in a perfectly capable high performance cruiser that will outsail just about anything out there except for a J boat and then you won't need 8 guys on the rail instead of your wife reading a book in the cockpit.

And I saw the comment about impact collisions with a cored hull. Yes they can be repaired (nothing you cannot do on a boat when time and money are involved) but one of the often overlooked issues is the hull construction itself. Most productions boats, Catalina, Hunter, IP, Bene, Jenneau etc all use a pan or grid system that bonds the hull to the grid thus giving structural stability to the hull. On impact from a submerged object, it is possible that the impact will cause the grid adhesive bond to separate from the hull thus compromising the strength of the vessel. A boat built like Morris, Sabre or others that do not use structural pans will more likely flex and the overall bonds of the bulkheads which are glassed into the hull will not compromise the vessel. This construction is labor intensive and that is why most production builders have moved away from it. It is also a lighter and possibly a stronger method but the cost is prohibitive for all but the smaller builders who build to custom or near custom standards.

I ran a Sabre 426 for about 45 minutes off FL's west coast with autopilot on a broad reach and the gps didn't vary from 11.2-11.6 knots the whole time while eating apples and sandwiches in 30 knots of wind.

Nice boats. Full disclosure. I own the last Sabre 34 the factory built, #430, I started the Florida Sabre Sailboat Owners' Association and am a self confessed Sabre nut. I'm heading out now for a Friday afternoon sail on Windswept! Cheers.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

CD—

Lots of bluewater passage making multihulls and monohulls have cored hulls. Properly maintained and designed, there's nothing wrong with one, and a properly designed and built cored hull can be far stronger, lighter and safer than a solid fiberglass hull.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

AlanGSYS said:


> ...A while back I was discussing the Catalina 42 and the Sabre 426 with another yacht broker. Although we both agree that the Catalina 42 is one of the best value sail boats ever built...


You know, that's an interesting observations about the C42. Anytime I've crawled around on one, I've been pretty darn impressed with the amount of boat you get for the money.

I would like to see dual wheels to improve access through/to the swim scoop. Aside from that -- there's not much to find fault with, for coastal sailing anyway.

I don't like the AVS of 114 degrees for serious off-shore work, though. And I'd like to see an intermediate draft/keel option verse the two extremes. A bulbed fin in the <= 6' range would be nice.

A lot of boat for the money.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Cruisingdad said:


> Hey, I will respond in a bit.....


Kinda glad you didn't plan to respond a LOT!!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Brian-
"Sabre uses a vacuum bag/divincell construction for their boats." That must be "the New Sabre" you're talking about, not the vat bulk of boats built by the original company. There was a bankruptcy and total re-organization some 5-10 years ago, wasn't it?
The first time I was on a Sabre 36 (the old Sabre company!) what somehow struck me louder than anything else was the dust-bin recessed into the cabin sole at the foot of the companionway. Simple, elegant, thoughtful...When I see something like that (and the curved/angled companionway stairs that Bene has been using for so long) it says to me that someone has spent a lot of time looking at the little things--and probably paid more attention to detail than most.

Then there's the layout in the "old" Sabre 38...with an aft head that makes a great wet locker, and IIRC an athwartships toilet. Even better than a dust bin. (G)

So the new Sabre is using CF rudder posts, following Bene's footsteps? I like the concept, I just keep thinking of that Airbus that crashed on takeoff from JFK after a carbon-fiber tail assembly broke off. I just hope those rudder stocks are being _massively _overbuilt.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

I love my Catalina also, but I'm willing to bet a crisp $10 bill that a 42' Sabre will "feel" much more comfortable when things get rough than a 40 or 42 foot Catalina and there is no question I'd choose the Sabre if I had to cross an ocean and could only choose an IP, Sabre or one of the big 3 production boats.

Look at things like the chainplates (Saber's will be massive compared to the Catalina), through hulls, (Sabres will be bronze), and bigger things like tabbed interior construction on the Sabre (no squeaking when beating to weather). The "dated" hull form of the Sabre is far better suited to offshore work than a beamy open cockpit designed for coastal cruising.

If the agenda were costal cruising, the argument for the Sabre becomes more about preferences and the Catalina's value proposition becomes much more of a factor.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

AlanGSYS said:


> &#8230; Sabre does not promote its Stability Index much (as does Island Packet and others) but I exchanged some email a while back with Sabre hull designer Jim Taylor and convinced him to buy the software to do the STIX analysis on Sabre hulls. I'm looking at his email now and the STIX for the S-426 checks in at 43.4 well above the Island Packet 370 at 43 which is generally acknowledged as an offshore capable vessel.
> 
> Euro rating of A ocean requires STIX of 32 as a minimum and is more achievable by productions builders, and STIX of 40 is more often regarded as bluewater suitable by many.
> 
> ...


STIX is not very good to compare stability of two different sized boats. One of the main factors in the STIX formula is the length of the boat, so bigger boats will tend to have always a better STIX.

Many European production boats with around 40ft and some with less have a STIX over 40:

Southerly 110 - STIX 55; *Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 43 - STIX 44*; 
Swan 44 - STIX 57; *Benetau 393 - STIX 43*; Najad 380 - STIX 43; Regina 35 - STIX 43; Elan 37 - STIX 40; Dehler 39 - STIX 42; *Benetau First 44.7 - STIX 46*.

I don't post more because most of the designers find it a not very useful tool to access boat stability and they don't publicize it. So I would not give STIX number too much value. It tends to favor some boats in detriment of others without any reason connected with the boat real seaworthiness and stability.

It was popular in Europe on the first years till it was clear that it not a very good measure of boat stability.

A stability curve will give you more information about the boat static stability and some other indicators will give good clues about the dynamic, stability being freeboard one of the more important (a big freeboard is bad for dynamic stability).

About what you call US sailing stability index I am a bit at loss with it. I can see that it relays heavily on the boat LPS, but I don't know what it means MB and DSPM (displacement?) to find the CI or LSMO for finding the SI. Does anybody know?

http://www.offshorerace.org/images/pdf's/Part%20Two.pdf



AlanGSYS said:


> &#8230; Most productions boats, Catalina, Hunter, IP, Bene, Jenneau etc all use a pan or grid system that bonds the hull to the grid thus giving structural stability to the hull. On impact from a submerged object, it is possible that the impact will cause the grid adhesive bond to separate from the hull thus compromising the strength of the vessel. A boat built like Morris, Sabre or others that do not use structural pans will more likely flex and the overall bonds of the bulkheads which are glassed into the hull will not compromise the vessel. &#8230;
> ...


Those grid systems are not bonded to the hull, but fiberglassed to it till they become a part of the boat. I cannot see how they would become lose (if the boat is properly made).

Far more important is a lead keel and a steel grid (ideally stainless steel) fiberglassed to the hull, not because the other kind of grids don't work perfectly but because the problem is not on the distribution of the forces or its fixation to the hull, but on the link between the Keel bolts and the fiberglass (cutting force). If the steel bolt keels are fixed to a strong steel grid, that fixation is incomparably stronger.

There are several top range boats that use this system.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Cruisingdad said:


> ...
> 
> This is a really cool boat. I am excited to see Catalina making some nice changes. WHatcha think?? Catalina 445 boat test and boat review
> 
> ...


Yes it looks like a great boat, with a modern rigging and if the testers are right a pretty fast boat too. But I have to be honest and say that even if I always considered the Catalina a good boat (my neighbor at the Nazaré Marina had one) I never managed to like the aesthetics. In that respect, even if I like more the catalina hull, I find the Sabre a more beautiful boat.

this is personal of course, and a question of taste. what I consider a really good looking cruising boat is the one Marty has just posted on another thread, this one:

Sun Odyssey 439

Regards

Paulo


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## sahara (Dec 15, 2006)

Main difference - the Sabre will be fun to daysail upwind in a moderate breeze. That's a big difference. If a boat cannot translate breeze and water into fun, it has no reason to exist. Ask yourself which wheel you'd rather hold on a nice daysail.

Honestly, when I see IP's in Maine, they're usually motoring. The Sabre's are sailing.


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

IP's arent made to daysail. They are made for tradewind cruising. Seems kind of odd to me that a choice would be between an IP and a Sabre. Not really made for the same purpose.


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## AlanGSYS (Aug 11, 2010)

A couple of comments; Sabre never went bankrupt. They reorganized voluntarily in 1992 unlike many others who filed chapter 11 or just went out of biz in the late 80's/early 90's. They re-emerged with a design mandate to carry over the same look and style of the original pre 1992 Sabres but with a more modern design, fuller aft section and Jim Taylor as hull designer. 
(See text in Ferenc Mate's World's Greatest Sailboats, Vol 2)

Rudder posts on Sabre are not CF/Carbon Fibre, they are stainless steel and it is only the rudder BEARINGS on newer models that are CF and that is due to the flexibility of the material. (Where they are out of the sun and light and less prone to degradation.)
You won't find carbon fibre masts on production Sabres.
The grid systems found on most production sailboats are to the best of my knowledge NOT fiberglassed in to the hull. They are bonded and often with a brand name adhesive called "Plexus" which guys who know a lot more than I do (and can spell better than I can) say is a super glue in the "metho cryalate" group or some such technical material.
Whoaa, the wife just said I can take the boat out again and stay overnight! I'm outta here.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

PCP said:


> Yes it looks like a great boat, with a modern rigging and if the testers are right a pretty fast boat too. But I have to be honest and say that even if I always considered the Catalina a good boat (my neighbor at the Nazaré Marina had one) I never managed to like the aesthetics. In that respect, even if I like more the catalina hull, I find the Sabre a more beautiful boat.
> 
> this is personal of course, and a question of taste. what I consider a really good looking cruising boat is the one Marty has just posted on another thread, this one:
> 
> ...


Paulo,

There's something about Catalinas. For me, when I look at profile drawings of these boats which show the entire hull profile (including below the waterline), they look odd to my eye. But -- and I don't know why this is -- if you take a piece of paper, and cover the below-waterline portion of the hull, the appearance seems to improve.

Anyway, we have a Catalina 445 at our marina in the water, and it looks much better in person than in the drawings.

No question, though, that the Sabre is a more handsome boat, in the classic sense. Still, there's really no accounting for personal tastes or aesthetic preferences. For instance, you find that Jeanneau to be a good looking boat, and to my North American eye it is not particularly attractive. It has a distinctly "euro" look that reminds me of boats built for the Caribbean charter trade.

By "euro" I certainly don't mean to disparage our friends on the other side of the Atlantic. In North America, "euro" has a connotation that generally means "ultra modern" or "contemporary", as opposed to classic or traditional in appearance. It's not an insult. In fact it can be used as a compliment. But for those of us who prefer more traditional looking boats like the Sabre, the "euro" look would not be appealing.

Those stretched, fine entry bows are nice for extending the waterline, but they generally result in fairly wet boats on deck. Belowdecks the bows of the boat are not as useful for accommodations/storage as compared to a boat with fuller bows and more flare -- the v-berths tend to be very tight/cramped (they'd be better off going with a pullman style berth and shifting the head forward.) I also wonder how that Jeanneau would look when it gets fitted out for sailing -- dodger, bimini, solar panels, arch, davits etc? Probably not nearly as sleek as the stripped boat in the images.

But that's really another thread.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

Wow. What a great thread. The discussion is intelligent, polite, and detailed. Bravo, Sailnet.

A few comments:

1. Old Sabres have SS posts.
2. The 38 came in 2 models, an aft cabin and a traditional layout. I like the traditional layout because it's more open. Victoria is this style.
3. Bulkheads are tabbed. See following links on the Port & Stbd repair. I had to tab the new sections to the hull.
S/V Victoria Head Reconstruction
S/V Victoria Head Reconstruction
4. Interiors on Sabres are hand built with very few moulded sections. This is one of the significant reasons for the greater cost. The older boats like mine have no moulded sections. This makes for a beautiful boat, but one that is heavy (older Sabres used marine ply). I believe that newer boats use lighter materials. Catalinas have many more moulded components that result in reduced cost, but a more sterile feel. Some people (not me) equate that to poor quality.
5.


> fine entry bows ... generally result in fairly wet boats on deck


 - I agree. Our 38 is much wetter up front than I would like, but it's not a deal breaker. I shut the fore hatch. 

I think that IP, Sabre, and Catalina are all good boats. I really like Catalinas, but their fit and finish isn't the same as Sabre. IP is somewhere in between, but a dramatically different boat (full keel, bow sprit, rig, etc). IMO, Sabre is closer to Catalina in style and performance than IP. Of course, I'm not backing that up with numbers but it seems obvious to me.

I would not cross an ocean on a stock IP, Sabre, or Catalina. While it may be feasible, I wouldn't do it. As an example, I sailed a stock Catalina 30 offshore from Ocean City, NJ to Newport, RI in 1978 dead reckoning without Loran, etc. Today, I would not do the same passage on my Sabre without some modifications, even with 3 GPS units, more knowledge, and vastly superior safety equipment.

The reality is that very few boats do a passage, sail in Force 9 conditions, or meet truly extreme conditions (being frightened does not equate to extreme conditions). My recommendation is to buy the boat that best suits the needs and eye appeal of the owner. In other words, go with your gut. This is a great problem to have - "_what yacht to buy_".


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Sabreman said:


> ...
> I think that IP, Sabre, and Catalina are all good boats. I really like Catalinas, but their fit and finish isn't the same as Sabre. IP is somewhere in between, but a dramatically different boat (full keel, bow sprit, rig, etc). IMO, Sabre is closer to Catalina in style and performance than IP. Of course, I'm not backing that up with numbers but it seems obvious to me.
> .....
> The reality is that very few boats do a passage, sail in Force 9 conditions, or meet truly extreme conditions (being frightened does not equate to extreme conditions). My recommendation is to buy the boat that best suits the needs and eye appeal of the owner. In other words, go with your gut. This is a great problem to have - "_what yacht to buy_".


I agree with that and I would add that even if you do one or two Transats you are going to coastal sail most of the time and most of the time you will have very weak, weak, or medium winds (unless you plan to sail in winter). That means that with an IP you are going to motor or motor sail most of the time.

Yes, "*the boat that best suits the needs and eye appeal of the owner"*...but I would make another suggestion : Test sail the the boats you are interested in. One thing is the boat in a boat show, other is sailing with the boat.

All the best

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

JohnRPollard said:


> Paulo,
> 
> .....
> Anyway, we have a Catalina 445 at our marina in the water, and it looks much better in person than in the drawings.
> ...


John,

I have said that it was only my particular taste and I have only posted because I have been asked too, and I didn't wanted to be impolite . Yes the new Jeanneau looks slick and very modern, Euro, if you like, but the Europeans also like and buy boats with a classical look (even if in smaller numbers) but the idea they have of a modern classic is this (I like also the looks of this one. The designer is American) :

Moody Yachts

Or this one:

Classic line

Regards

Paulo


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## lawdawg (Oct 12, 2010)

Put an offer on a Sabre 42, it was accepted and going to N.C. this weekend to look at it. 
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rrency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=7346&url=
This is the link, would certainly appreciate feedback, seems pretty well-equipped and ready to go.
I'm to say the least excited to go see her!
Thanks to everyone!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

lawdawg said:


> Put an offer on a Sabre 42, it was accepted and going to N.C. this weekend to look at it.
> http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rrency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=7346&url=
> This is the link, would certainly appreciate feedback, seems pretty well-equipped and ready to go.
> I'm to say the least excited to go see her!
> Thanks to everyone!


I told you earlier and I will tell you again that I liked the boat and think you made a good choice. I hope that you will take my comments as they were meant, only constructive, and if I had a problem with that boat, I would have todl you so. I am very happy for you Drew, and am excited that we might see you out there. THe offer still stands to catch up and meet you and your wife. We are in Fort Myers Beach right now (maybe until December, might bot be back after Thanksgiving though) then beyond we hope but that is beyond our control. But if we are within a dink ride of each other, you bet we will stop by and invite you over for drinks. I buy the first round, you babysit!!!!

Get a very good survey on that boat. I know one if you need one. He did my dad's boat (I would have none other) and I have sailed with him in the Pacific and known for years. So you let me know. But no matter, YOU pick the surveyor and make sure he is thorough.

Feel free to touch base anytime!!! All the best and congrats!!!

Brian & family.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

Wow. I'm nearly speechless. This looks like a really nice boat that's been continuously maintained. Congratulations! I assume that you've done a price check; BoatUS has a free service. From the pics, which are on the small side, she looks really nice; it's nice to see how these boats hold their value. This owner obviously cares quite a bit. Based on my Sabre experience, you may want to check the following:

1. Chainplates where they enter the boat and attach to the bulkheads. Pay attention to rotted bulkheads where the bolts enter. Pretty common for Sabres to have delam.

2. Mast step. Many Sabres of this vintage have had clogged drains at the base of the mast. The result can be a compromised mast step and delaminated floor.

3. Lifelines. If not replaced by now, they probably should be since Sabre used coated lifelines. Check for rust stains where they enter the swaged fittings. Since the rest of the standing rigging is new, I suspect that teh lifelines are too.

4. Electrical fittings are not necessarily up to modern standards. But the electrics & electronics look very new.

5. Fresh water fixtures and hoses will probably need replacement. The head may need rebuilding. WM sells Wilcox & Crittendon rebuild kits.

You appear to have a great boat and I'm sure that the survey will only show items that need normal maintenance.

Congrats! You made a fine choice.


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

Nice looking boat! Hope it works out.


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## lawdawg (Oct 12, 2010)

Cruisingdad- I hope we get a chance to meet up, I think we'd have a great time hanging out. Of course I took them as constructive!  You were really helpful with your time and opinions and I greatly appreciate them and fully understand the intention in which they were meant. I have seen enough of your post on here to truly appreciate that you honestly just want to help people on here. I hope to buy you a beer and am counting on you showing me how to make the most out of grilling on a boat!  I don't think we will be down there by Christmas, I want to keep the boat out of Florida for 6 months so I don't have to worry about taxes, but if you know a good surveyor in N.C. I would love to have you PM me. Either way, down the road I know I will sail near you and look forward to it. 
Sabreman- Thanks for the tips, I will definitely check that out. I have heard that people often didn't pay attention to the drains getting clogged, but he spent about 60k in the last two years updating this boat, and so I would imagine he did it with attention to detail. I emailed boat US to get their opinion on the value of the boat, but it seems like most of the boat values I have looked at are a little crazy. I plugged the boat into NADA and it said the value was 72k, but the last three Sabre 42s to sell went for around 135k and were not even in the ballpark of the equipment of this boat. Our agreement is about 10% off the asking price, and it seems like, based on the way it is equipped, and if the boat is anything like the pics, that it is a great deal. I find it hard to believe that anyone can actually buy one of these for 72k, regardless of the condition? Based on what I have gotten on this boat, I plan on cushions, a bottom paint, putting on davits, and a few other minor updates, but everything else should be ready to go. Thank you again for your help!
Drew


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Drew,

Congrats! I hope the deal goes through for you -- very nice boat!

Don't get hung up on those NADA prices. NADA knows cars, but they don't seem to know much about boats. As far as anyone can tell, they seem to apply the same straight line depreciation formula to boats that they use for cars. 

Which is nonsense. A well maintained and upgraded boat, from a reputable limited-production builder, may easily hold or increase in value (not factoring inflation). In fairness to NADA, there are simply too many variables for them to consider, so the best they can do is a ballpark estimate that assumes the boat is accumulating wear and tear and is progressively losing value.

The NADA approach probably works better for motorboats produced in large numbers, which makes them a commodity more like automobiles.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Drew-
If you want to know what they are actually selling for, find the BUC BOOK online. They obtain their figures (supposedly) from actual brokered sales and the book is SOLD to the trade. But, they've been allowing civilians to make one search, and one search only, to obtain a price for a specific boat.
Of course, in this economy a reality check has to be taken to the bank very quickly.<G>


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

She's a beauty - it's so much easier to keep something in good shape than to get it there! Congrats!


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

lawdawg said:


> Cruisingdad- I hope we get a chance to meet up, I think we'd have a great time hanging out. Of course I took them as constructive!  You were really helpful with your time and opinions and I greatly appreciate them and fully understand the intention in which they were meant. I have seen enough of your post on here to truly appreciate that you honestly just want to help people on here. I hope to buy you a beer and am counting on you showing me how to make the most out of grilling on a boat!  I don't think we will be down there by Christmas, I want to keep the boat out of Florida for 6 months so I don't have to worry about taxes, but if you know a good surveyor in N.C. I would love to have you PM me. Either way, down the road I know I will sail near you and look forward to it.
> Sabreman- Thanks for the tips, I will definitely check that out. I have heard that people often didn't pay attention to the drains getting clogged, but he spent about 60k in the last two years updating this boat, and so I would imagine he did it with attention to detail. I emailed boat US to get their opinion on the value of the boat, but it seems like most of the boat values I have looked at are a little crazy. I plugged the boat into NADA and it said the value was 72k, but the last three Sabre 42s to sell went for around 135k and were not even in the ballpark of the equipment of this boat. Our agreement is about 10% off the asking price, and it seems like, based on the way it is equipped, and if the boat is anything like the pics, that it is a great deal. I find it hard to believe that anyone can actually buy one of these for 72k, regardless of the condition? Based on what I have gotten on this boat, I plan on cushions, a bottom paint, putting on davits, and a few other minor updates, but everything else should be ready to go. Thank you again for your help!
> Drew


IMHO, 72k would have to be a distress sale, a really run down boat (raced hard and put away wet, as they say) or one which had had a very bad experience such as a storm incident or an accident. The ballpark that you are talking about seems fair, particularly if it is well-maintained. Congratulations. I am sure you are going to love the boat.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

No way that boat is worth $72k. We bought our '84 38 in 2005 for $75k and that was average for the time. Your boat is in much better condition than was ours. Judging by the photos and upgrade list, your vessel does not appear to require nearly as much work as our boat. With that said, we've spent approx $20k on upgrades in 5 years.

The bottom line is that I feel that your bid price is in line.


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## lawdawg (Oct 12, 2010)

thanks for all the great comments everybody, it puts me at ease with the purchase price, this is my first big boat purchase, so the comments are very appreciated


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

> this is my first big boat purchase


For a first big boat purchase you selected well. Certainly not the cheapest route, but one that you will not regret. Five years from now, the purchase price will be a distant memory as you sit on a hook somewhere watching the sun set.

If it passes survey and you go with it, post pictures!

I assume that you will not make the purchase without a survey by a surveyor of your choosing. Say "yes".


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

Congrats on finding such a nice Sabre! 
While I'm mostly an Ericson guy, I have done a coastal delivery on a Sabre 32, and really appreciate the build quality and general design.
I always class them up there with PSC, Ericson Yachts, and the older Tartans.

The maintenance stuff listed on that particular boat shows good stewardship from the prior owner.
You've chosen wisely.

Enjoy!


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## lawdawg (Oct 12, 2010)

Sabreman- most definitely doing a survey and I will be picking the person, or more to the point my broker will help me, he has been great through the whole process
Olson34- thanks a lot for the comments, much appreciated!


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

I would recommend against using a surveyor recommended by the broker. The broker works for the seller, not you, since that's where his money comes from. 

BoatUS has a great list of surveyors. To be honest, they are your link to sanity. Their job is to point out the flaws. A good survey for this vessel should run about $1000 ($750 for the survey, $250 for the short haul) and take a full day including short haul and sea trial. In our case, our surveyor found a significant problem but actually saved the sale when I wanted to pull out. Best $1000 that I ever spent. PM me if you would like details.

The surveyor works for the buyer. The broker works for the seller.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

If she surveys well, you just purchased a great vessel, that should give you years of great sailing. Congrats..


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## Nacra52 (Oct 24, 2010)

My late father, who sailed his whole life and owned some really beautiful boats , like a Hinckley 44, had for many years a Sabre 30 that was kept in Little Traverse Bay, on Lake Michigan. I think it was the favorite of all the boats he owned, he constantly raved about how well it sailed, and how nicely it was made. I enjoyed many day sails out on the lake, and he and my mother sailed it all around the Great Lakes.


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## lawdawg (Oct 12, 2010)

Nacra52, what a great story! My sponsors when I was at the Naval Academy had a Hinckley 44, one of the most beautiful boats I have ever seen and I felt fortunate every time I got to go out on her!


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## deagle12 (Apr 23, 2011)

*Eliptec Folding Prop for Sabre 42*

I recently sold my Sabre 42 (that I only kept for one season due to draft issues in my area). But after selling it I realized I forgot to include a spare Eliptec folding prop with the boat. The new owner doesn't want it. Anyone interested? I took some picture of it. Costs about $1400 new. Its lightly used, all polished up. I would sell it for $100.


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