# One Ship Stupid



## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

The term one ship stupid refers to a person learning something wrong and teaching it to another never knowing the fault. With all the outlets for sailors these day I'm seeing quite a few interesting, amusing and often frightening results. Its winter and I thought this would be a fun topic to mull over the short days and cold nights. This thread I'm sure will be both amusing and informative. 

Ok I'll start, I was walking through the Marina today and couldn't find a single sailboat with its jib lead cars on the proper way, they were all backwards. I guess even big boat manufacturers are suffering from one ship stupid these days. The locking piston should be on the front of the car not behind it. There are many reasons for this including ease of use and safety, not one boat in the whole harbor had them on right. Well I guess I didnt look at every boat but I spent a good hour walking the docks. Have fun kids


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

The cars shouldn't even be on deck. That's just crazy, lazy and careless.


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## westsailpatti (Dec 11, 2014)

A year ago my buddy Wing Nut bought a Garmin 72h GPS it was really hard to operate and view as it has a black and brown screen . He sent it back , last week he proudly showed me his new GPS, a Garmin 72h .


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

I think we all have had moments of one ship stupid with the exception of the marina queens and armchair sailors trim is very common why do we all like to beat evn though it is proven to be a slower point of sail? I did this for years until i stopped and looked at how long it was taking to get anywhere.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

At the risk of appearing stupid, can you explain why jib lead cars should be mounted with the pins forward? Is it because if they're mounted with the pins aft, the sheet leads over the pin as it goes back to the winch, making it difficult to access and perhaps impossible to release with the jib sheeted in? Are there other reasons? Simply stating that it should be one way and not another doesn't raise the cognitive level of the situation or involve much teaching.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

You are right on the first part, also when adjusting under load the car is forced back and can do quite a bit of damage to your hand if car is backwards. Also thats just the design of it 
BTW I appear stupid on a daily basis, not a bad thing or so they tell me.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

barefootnavigator said:


> You are right on the first part, also when adjusting under load the car is forced back and can do quite a bit of damage to your hand if car is backwards. Also thats just the design of it
> BTW I appear stupid on a daily basis, not a bad thing or so they tell me.


Maybe on a little boat like yours it can be adjusted under load, but you certainly aren't going to be able to do that on a bigger boat. I don't care which side the pin is on, if we came into the wind to adjust the block underway on the loaded side, you'd be risking more than a finger or hand from a flogging sheet. We always adjust the windward (unloaded) block and then tack.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

I sail with my fenders down just to annoy this sort of person.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

By the looks of most cleat hitches on the dock, this must be the way they got started. Just do as many figure eights as you can, until you run out of dock line, then do a hitch. Or just do 42 hitches. Or, if you're drunk, do a few hitches, then a dozen figure eights, followed by a few more hitches.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> By the looks of most cleat hitches on the dock, this must be the way they got started. Just do as many figure eights as you can, until you run out of dock line, then do a hitch. Or just do 42 hitches. Or, if you're drunk, do a few hitches, then a dozen figure eights, followed by a few more hitches.


Tying a cleat hitch seems to be a big mystery to many. Walking down any dock, very few of these are tied correctly. It is not really intuitive to do it correctly so a bit of thought is involved. Cleat Hitch | How to tie the Cleat Hitch for a Halyard | Boating Knots

Maybe it's not a case of learning it wrong but more a case of not learning it at all. Sloppy knot tying is a candidate in many forms for this discussion. How many half hitches and granny knots have you seen in place of the correct knot?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

smurphny said:


> Tying a cleat hitch seems to be a big mystery to many..


Two rivers and a bridge. Look at a properly tied cleat hitch and it's two rivers and a bridge.

There was a thread here once, where people took pics of the grossest examples they could find. They were funny.

I buddy of mine calls the spastic over, under, around, hitched to death knot, the hatchet knot. Takes a hatchet to get it off.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> Two rivers and a bridge. Look at a properly tied cleat hitch and it's two rivers and a bridge.


Clove hitch too. I guess hitch = two rivers and a bridge.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> Clove hitch too. I guess hitch = two rivers and a bridge.


I guess what you call it depends on whether you were taught how to tie it by the Boy Scouts or the Sea Scouts.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I saw an amusing vid not too long ago on how to adjust jib cars under sail or load on a bigger boat...and I thought to myself why not just tack over adjust then go back

I mean is your sail going to die in one tack?

well basically this video showed a 2 man person job with a second "sheet" going down to a second winch that pulled in on the jib after the original sheetwas let slack...by slack the damn sail was out like a chute on a knockdown...

ok so the adjuster does this routine a few times and is yelling back at the helmsman who is in control of the electric winch who kind of had things in control

it took Im going to say a solid 3 minutes of work to adjust the now unloaded car...

now I dont know how slow some of us tack or if big boats dont like to but I just thought that this is one of those ship stupid cases with a caveat...it does work I just dont see why you would need to do this...

now racing you adjust stuff like this all the time

on small boats I have always stepped on the jib sheet...and moved the car as needed...no difference wether the lock was in front or back...however for ease of use most had the lock back 

just sayin

some things indistry wise are supposed to be done a certain way, however that doesnt mean that doing it another way is ship stupid...maybe just DIFFERENT

I for one dont mind what direction a car lock is however I fully understand the way its supposed to be...

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanywhoooo


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

My 1,000 sq ft genoa can have the cars moved by one person, either forwards or backwards, under load, by using 4ft of 3/8 line, a rolling hitch and a round turn and 2 half hitches! 

Just a matter of knowing where to tie the line for each adjustment!

And the cars are not on a pulley system.

Phil


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm confused as to why the OP is so certain that his methods are the most correct methods and that everyone else is "one ship stupid".

Since I've started sailing, I've learned that sailboats are as unique and as dynamic as human beings themselves. What is "wrong" on one sailboat, works very well on another sailboat.

I'm not about to start pointing fingers at people except perhaps in the grossest cases of poor seamanship.


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

*Re: One Ship Stupid on a square rigger*

My first long ocean passage was three weeks in an Australian wooden square rigger. Woe to the crew member who threw a "Yachtie hitch" on a cleat. "A clockwise round turn and three figure of eights" was the elegant standard.

While sail handling at night you had to know that every line was belayed properly in the same manner. No lights allowed on deck and no time to look and figure it out. To this day the only time I throw a hitch on a cleat is if the cleat is too small for three figure eights.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

*Re: One Ship Stupid on a square rigger*



BubbleheadMd said:


> I'm confused as to why the OP is so certain that his methods are the most correct methods and that everyone else is "one ship stupid".
> 
> Since I've started sailing, I've learned that sailboats are as unique and as dynamic as human beings themselves. What is "wrong" on one sailboat, works very well on another sailboat.
> 
> I'm not about to start pointing fingers at people except perhaps in the grossest cases of poor seamanship.


don't you know there is only one way of doing things, and if you spend more than $500 a month to live you are wasteful.



vega1860 said:


> My first long ocean passage was three weeks in an Australian wooden square rigger. Woe to the crew member who threw a "Yachtie hitch" on a cleat. "A clockwise round turn and three figure of eights" was the elegant standard.
> 
> While sail handling at night you had to know that every line was belayed properly in the same manner. No lights allowed on deck and no time to look and figure it out. To this day the only time I throw a hitch on a cleat is if the cleat is too small for three figure eights.


To me that is key, consistency. More important is that things are done in a consistent manor, as long as it is safe. There are some things that are learned "wrong," but if they are safe don't stress yourself about others actions. Most of the time I have seen really bad hitches on the dock it is done by a guest. Though I will have to say power boaters seem to take less care with there knots, likely because they don't have to tie as many.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

*Re: One Ship Stupid on a square rigger*



miatapaul said:


> don't you know there is only one way of doing things, and if you spend more than $500 a month to live you are wasteful.
> 
> I'm sure you are smarter than the designers at Harken but I'm not. Looks like a little passive aggression going on with the $500 comment. I'd suggest you take a deep breath, lighten up and have a bit of fun, life is too short.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> I'm not about to start pointing fingers at people except perhaps in the grossest cases of poor seamanship.


I would tend to agree. However, everyone has a different continuum of what poor seamanship is. There are often trade-offs to doing things one way or another. Often the observer is not aware of the trade-offs that have been made in the sailors head because of their own priorities.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

barefootnavigator said:


> The term one ship stupid refers to a person learning something wrong and* teaching it* ......
> 
> Ok I'll start, I was walking through the Marina today and couldn't find a single sailboat with its jib lead cars on the proper way, they were all backwards.


Better alert Barton, Teach.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

...and Garhauer.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

There is a reason we call it the Americas Cup, we just do things better


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Perhaps it is a bit "one ship stupid" to _assume_ that because Harken cars mount one way, that all brands do.

The Garhauer cars are designed with the lock pin aft. If you reverse them the pin that runs through each side of the block, to keep the sheet from tangling, will be in the direct path of the line leading aft to the winch and will create friction.....

The real question is who designed the block and how did they intend for it to be used...












barefootnavigator said:


> The term one ship stupid refers to a person learning something wrong and teaching it to another never knowing the fault. With all the outlets for sailors these day I'm seeing quite a few interesting, amusing and often frightening results. Its winter and I thought this would be a fun topic to mull over the short days and cold nights. This thread I'm sure will be both amusing and informative.
> 
> Ok I'll start, *I was walking through the Marina today and couldn't find a single sailboat with its jib lead cars on the proper way, they were all backwards*. I guess even big boat manufacturers are suffering from one ship stupid these days. *The locking piston should be on the front of the car not behind it.* There are many reasons for this including ease of use and safety, not one boat in the whole harbor had them on right. Well I guess I didnt look at every boat but I spent a good hour walking the docks. Have fun kids


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

barefootnavigator said:


> There is a reason we call it the Americas Cup, we just do things better


 _America's_ Cup is named for the boat, not the country.... but thanks for another example of one ship stupid.


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## SailingJackson (Jan 1, 2011)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I'm confused as to why the OP is so certain that his methods are the most correct methods and that everyone else is "one ship stupid".
> 
> Since I've started sailing, I've learned that sailboats are as unique and as dynamic as human beings themselves. What is "wrong" on one sailboat, works very well on another sailboat.


I agree as a general concept and the genoa block issue is clearly debatable, but I did help out a guy who really seemed to need help. He was a typical self-taught sailor. His boat had a short length of wire Nicropress attached to the backstay. It had a snap on the end and was intended as a keeper for the end of the boom when at dock. He had been sailing a couple years, leaving this clipped to the boom and had never attached the main sheet tackle. The whole mainsheet assembly was left in the cabin and he didn't know what it was for. I suspect that he had a bit better sailing performance after I enlightened him on how to use the mainsheet.

GTJ


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

And if it was such an issue, perhaps there would be more reports of the blocks breaking, but we don't so perhaps it is just not that big of an issue. Especially since you report all boats in your marina have it "backwards" of course perhaps it is just that there are not that many Harken cars, and more of the other brands that designed them to fact the other way?


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

bljones said:


> _America's_ Cup is named for the boat, not the country.... but thanks for another example of one ship stupid.


Tell us more about the AC? and who was sailing it and why they renamed the race


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

smurphny said:


> Tying a cleat hitch seems to be a big mystery to many. Walking down any dock, very few of these are tied correctly. It is not really intuitive to do it correctly so a bit of thought is involved. Cleat Hitch | How to tie the Cleat Hitch for a Halyard | Boating Knots
> 
> Maybe it's not a case of learning it wrong but more a case of not learning it at all. Sloppy knot tying is a candidate in many forms for this discussion. How many half hitches and granny knots have you seen in place of the correct knot?


Oh delicious irony! The link shown above demonstrates the Cleat Hitch for a _*halyard*_. The same website shows how to make a Deck Cleat Hitch, which is the same as described by vega1860 in post #17.

More from Animatedknots.com regarding the deck cleat hitch:
"Some modern illustrations still show only a single crossover followed by a Half Hitch. An intermittent load on a nylon rope may transmit tension to the Half Hitch and make release awkward."

Apparently, "Two rivers and a bridge" is a perfect example of One Ship Stupid!


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

Animatedknots.com also has a good discussion on why Figure 8 knots are not the best stopper knot. I learned that the hard way twice; once I lost a halyard and once a jib sheet got away from me due to the Figure 8 shaking loose. Yet, I still see many people recommend Figure 8 stopper knots.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Maine Sail said:


> Perhaps it is a bit "one ship stupid" to _assume_ that because Harken cars mount one way, that all brands do.
> 
> The Garhauer cars are designed with the lock pin aft. If you reverse them the pin that runs through each side of the block, to keep the sheet from tangling, will be in the direct path of the line leading aft to the winch and will create friction.....
> 
> The real question is who designed the block and how did they intend for it to be used...


Fair enough, I'm sure there are millions of products on the market that are less than safe and poorly designed. There is all sorts of banter here but not one single example of why having it backwards is beneficial. I have pointed out multiple clear and concise examples of why having it properly installed is not only safer but also more efficient. Safety and efficiency are two of the most critical factors of good seamanship and also just having fun. I would suggest going to your boat and taking out one screw flip it backwards or forewords depending on how you see it and test it your self. It was pointed out that I sail a small boat and I do, she is 22' on deck, 31' overall and a puny 5 net tones with only 403 sq' of working sail. I also sail medium and large boats and we often shape our sails under load. There are many reasons why you can't or don't want to tack or jibe to shape a sail.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

No one is saying that having a jib car backwards is beneficial. We're saying that YOU do not recognize when certain brands of jib car are properly installed or not. Then you pontificate here on the web, on how screwed up your dockmates are.

There is much else that I suspect that you don't recognize as proper or correct, as methods and equipment vary greatly from boat to boat.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

barefootnavigator said:


> Tell us more about the AC? and who was sailing it and why they renamed the race


Barefootnavigator... here is some good reading but the jist of it all is the schooner America won against the Royal Yacht Club and won... the Royal Yacht Club then donated the trophy to the New York Yacht Club... the Cup was renamed America's Cup afterward... the Schooner America of course was designed and built in America so technically it's America's trophy and all contenders from other countries yacht clubs compete to take it away.

1. IN THE BEGINNING - 35th America's Cup

So you're technically not 'One Ship Stupid' as others have mentioned! :laugher


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

also a point to consider is the americas includes all of north and south america


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

BubbleheadMd said:


> No one is saying that having a jib car backwards is beneficial. We're saying that YOU do not recognize when certain brands of jib car are properly installed or not. Then you pontificate here on the web, on how screwed up your dockmates are.
> 
> There is much else that I suspect that you don't recognize as proper or correct, as methods and equipment vary greatly from boat to boat.


Bubblehead, I might suggest you try decaf. This whole thread was posted for fun read the original post.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

To take another riff on the dock cleat issue, in Atlatic Canada dock cleats are few and far between. The further East the fewer.

They tend to use a large ring attached to the dock with a lag screw and eye.

No good way to tie off to them.

No clue why they do it.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

perhaps this thread would be better suited as a way to learn from other's mistake or your own (unless you never make mistakes) rather than a place to point out how stupid others are


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Will someone please email Matt Rutherford and let him know he'll never make around the America's safely with his pin stops facing aft......

Oh wait, he already did...... Never mind....


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Now here is a source of potential discussion. How do you guys tie off to rings and those horizontal planks? And for bonus points, what the heck are they called?


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

hpeer said:


> To take another riff on the dock cleat issue, in Atlatic Canada dock cleats are few and far between. The further East the fewer.
> 
> They tend to use a large ring attached to the dock with a lag screw and eye.
> 
> ...


with rings i like to run lines through and back aboard to my own cleats
meaning never have to worry about tripping hazards on docks


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

barefootnavigator said:


> Bubblehead, I might suggest you try decaf. *This whole thread was posted for fun* read the original post.


I guess I failed to see the humor in crapping on my dockmates.

People do things "wrong" all the time. I'm wrong often enough that I should probably refrain from commenting on other's mistakes.

Carry on.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

GeorgeB said:


> Now here is a source of potential discussion. How do you guys tie off to rings and those horizontal planks? And for bonus points, what the heck are they called?


with the planks? i do two wraps below the load one above a tuck and back aboard
rings i pass through and bring back aboard
not sure the name of the dock hardware
i always have my docklines return aboard 
and hanging near the hawse


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

white74 said:


> with rings i like to run lines through and back aboard to my own cleats
> meaning never have to worry about tripping hazards on docks


Not a bad idea, but I've never seen that done.

Still, the damn rings are pretty useless for moving a boat about on dock.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

hpeer said:


> Not a bad idea, but I've never seen that done.
> 
> Still, the damn rings are pretty useless for moving a boat about on dock.


i have gotten into argument with some guys who decided to "fix" docklines
so now if they want to do anything they would have to board my vessel
my way may not be the "right" way but i like it and it is my boat so please dont mess with my method
BTW I have never had a dockline failure


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

so is this a thread for showing how pretetious we are?
or a thread for learning?
we can all say look at that idiot but perhaps a suggestion might help them or if they prefer their way let them.
maybe we should point out that the starting of a controversial thread is "One ship stupid"


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

hpeer said:


> To take another riff on the dock cleat issue, in Atlatic Canada dock cleats are few and far between. The further East the fewer.


Whenever you do find them, however, they at least appear to be of sufficient strength...


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

white74 said:


> i have gotten into argument with some guys who decided to "fix" docklines
> so now if they want to do anything they would have to board my vessel
> my way may not be the "right" way but i like it and it is my boat so please dont mess with my method
> BTW I have never had a dockline failure


Are dock rings in lieu of cleats common on the west coast of Canada?

Is this a Canadian thing in general?

I always assumed they did the rings because they were cheaper, maybe had a bunch around from bottom dragging bags or something?


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

white74 said:


> so is this a thread for showing how pretetious we are?
> or a thread for learning?
> we can all say look at that idiot but perhaps a suggestion might help them or if they prefer their way let them.
> maybe we should point out that the starting of a controversial thread is "One ship stupid"


Perhaps reading and responding to a thread you find so annoying is causing you unnecessary stress, if you don't like it your are free to not read it.. Personally I love to learn and love when people show me a better way to do things. I have been sailing for 29 years and am still constantly learning. I always tell my sailing students that I can teach them 80% of sailing on two weeks. the last 20% takes a lifetime. Some of my favorite past students are now my best teachers.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

hpeer said:


> Are dock rings in lieu of cleats common on the west coast of Canada?
> 
> Is this a Canadian thing in general?
> 
> I always assumed they did the rings because they were cheaper, maybe had a bunch around from bottom dragging bags or something?


we have an assortment from cleats pilings rings rails and bollard posts
so i get to be versatile


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

BubbleheadMd said:


> No one is saying that having a jib car backwards is beneficial.


Actually, I am saying that the lock on a properly designed jib sheet lead car should always face aft and away from the sail. This pushes the pin into the hole when the load gets largest, rather than pulling it up and out of the hole. The cars on small Harken sheet lead blocks will distort if the pin is facing forward, releasing the car and forcing the block aft to the stops (which also should always be at the aft end of the track despite the inconvenience).

I would suggest that the fact that there were no other boats with the locking pin facing forward in the OP's marina suggests that there was only one boat in the marina who was rigged incorrectly. Now whose boat could that have been? ;-)

Jeff


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

white74 said:


> with rings i like to run lines through and back aboard to my own cleats meaning never have to worry about tripping hazards on docks


I would like to suggest one small improvement to that. Normally one of the advantages of a properly tied cleat knot is that it does not slide against the bearing surface of the cleat and so is less likely to abrade on the cleat. When you pass a line through a ring it can shift and abrade on the inside of the ring. It helps to pass the line through the ring twice, or tie a clove hitch on the ring to reduce that abrasion.

Jeff


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I guess I failed to see the humor in crapping on my dockmates.
> 
> People do things "wrong" all the time. I'm wrong often enough that I should probably refrain from commenting on other's mistakes.
> 
> Carry on.


Last year I almost made it all year without making a mistake and right at the end of the year I discovered that I may have made one. but I was wrong.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Jeff_H said:


> I would suggest that the fact that there were no other boats with the locking pin facing forward in the OP's marina suggests that there was only one boat in the marina who was rigged incorrectly. Now whose boat could that have been? ;-)
> 
> Jeff


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> I would like to suggest one small improvement to that. Normally one of the advantages of a properly tied cleat knot is that it does slide against the bearing surface of the clean is is less likely to abrade on the cleat. When you pass a line through a ring it can abrade on the inside of the ring. It helps to pass the line through the ring twice, or tie a clove hitch on the ring to reduce that abrasion.
> 
> Jeff


i have chafe guards i put out on my lines where ever they have to pass over through some (poorly maintained) metal bits does the trick most of the time but will consider your suggestion...
ok considered but rejected ... lol


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

So when you guys are tying to a ring or plank, are you pulling the tail completely through the ring/plank opening, or are you doubling the line through? For what it's worth, I've always doubled, but I'm not sure that is to Hoyle.


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## OPossumTX (Jul 12, 2011)

Frogwatch said:


> I sail with my fenders down just to annoy this sort of person.


Those fenders don't slow me down near as much as the moss beard and dock lines!

Have FUN!
O'


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## OPossumTX (Jul 12, 2011)

GeorgeB said:


> Now here is a source of potential discussion. How do you guys tie off to rings and those horizontal planks? And for bonus points, what the heck are they called?


I use an anchor hitch. Am I doin' it WRONG????

Oh gosh! How will I ever forgive myself for being such a putz!

If I am wrong that is. Or am I wronger for doing it right and thinking I might be wrong? 

Oh the angst! uke

Gotta sell my boat and go hide RIGHT NOW! 

Sheesh! 
O'

p.s. forget the bonus points. I don't care about 'em. 'Possums can't count no how.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Frogwatch said:


> I sail with my fenders down just to annoy this sort of person.












Thought I'd seen your boat sailing somewhere with those fenders down!


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

*Re: One Ship Stupid on a square rigger*



vega1860 said:


> My first long ocean passage was three weeks in an Australian wooden square rigger. Woe to the crew member who threw a "Yachtie hitch" on a cleat. "A clockwise round turn and three figure of eights" was the elegant standard.
> 
> While sail handling at night you had to know that every line was belayed properly in the same manner. No lights allowed on deck and no time to look and figure it out. To this day the only time I throw a hitch on a cleat is if the cleat is too small for three figure eights.


I worked for years in the Aleutian Islands on commercial boats. Only once did I see a cleat hitch used. A load was put on the line, the hitch could not be released (when it really-really-really needed to be), there was a lot of screaming, cussing and berating. The only time Ive ever used a cleat hitch was when the line was too short, and then only if I knew there would not be a load on the line. Another couple turns will do the trick. Im no expert and maybe there is some good reason that I don't know about, but this has always worked for me.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

*Re: One Ship Stupid on a square rigger*



Tenoch said:


> I worked for years in the Aleutian Islands on commercial boats. Only once did I see a cleat hitch used. A load was put on the line, the hitch could not be released (when it really-really-really needed to be), there was a lot of screaming, cussing and berating. The only time Ive ever used a cleat hitch was when the line was too short, and then only if I knew there would not be a load on the line. Another couple turns will do the trick. Im no expert and maybe there is some good reason that I don't know about, but this has always worked for me.


every knot has a purpose and use
don't make me pull out my copy of ashleys here
my docklines are never loaded so not an issue inless i plan on taking the dock with me
or forget to untie before leaving
if the winds are high i use a rolling hitch to take the load off
we need to use the terms made vs made fast here to descibe the use of cleats
the figure 8 on the cleat is made the cleathitch is to make fast
again this is my method and it has served me well 
if you have a method you prefer feel free to do so as long as you are not endangering others by your actions


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

GeorgeB said:


> Now here is a source of potential discussion. How do you guys tie off to rings and those horizontal planks? And for bonus points, what the heck are they called?


Clove hitch or two round turns on the rail or ring and two half hitches around the standing part. Rails are the most common up here but you sometimes encounter rings.


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

As to whether one method of securing a line to a belay point is right or wrong:

It is "Right" if it stays secure when you want it to and comes free when you want it to.

It is "Wrong" if it comes loose when it is not supposed to or cannot be easily cast off immediately when desired.

That's my opinion. Feel free to disagree or cast ridicule.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

vega1860 said:


> As to whether one method of securing a line to a belay point is right or wrong:
> 
> It is "Right" if it stays secure when you want it to and comes free when you want it to.
> 
> ...


Bingo.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I'm not about to start pointing fingers at people except perhaps in the grossest cases of poor seamanship.


What else do you call it when it isn't done your way?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jwing said:


> Oh delicious irony! The link shown above demonstrates the Cleat Hitch for a _*halyard*_. The same website shows how to make a Deck Cleat Hitch, which is the same as described by vega1860 in post #17.
> 
> More from Animatedknots.com regarding the deck cleat hitch:
> "Some modern illustrations still show only a single crossover followed by a Half Hitch. An intermittent load on a nylon rope may transmit tension to the Half Hitch and make release awkward."
> ...


Delicious indeed. You get your protocol from animatedknots.com?

No one leaves their boat unattended with just a few figure eight wraps. Their reference to the halyard cleat hitch the appropriate cleat hitch on the dock, simple and easily unloaded.

Two rivers and a bridge is correct.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Not trying to be argumentative at all but I have had boats almost consecutively for 29 years and have always used only a proper cleat and never once had an issue. A few years back we had 89 knots at the dock. I had 13 1/2" lines across to the empty windward dock, by morning the dock had broken free but was still being held by the pilings. I was aboard and up all night checking my chafing gear but never once worried about the proper cleat. The whole point of it is that it can't slip, the rope will break but it still can't slip and it will never overload so it can be undone in a second. I think the proper cleat is the same as what is referred to here as the river and two bridges. Anyways thats my two cents


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

You all go ahead and argue. I'm out sailing. Only recall a short fuel stop at a dock once in the past two years. Used either a single hitch or a clove hitch. No cleats on the boat except to hang lazy line tails on. A lifestyle involving cleats has no place in mine.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

aloof said:


> A lifestyle involving cleats has no place in mine.


Apparently, neither does modesty, humour or manners.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Delicious indeed. You get your protocol from animatedknots.com?


That snark might have actually been snarky if I had made the original link to animatedknots.com.



Minnewaska said:


> No one leaves their boat unattended with just a few figure eight wraps. Their reference to the halyard cleat hitch the appropriate cleat hitch on the dock, simple and easily unloaded.


I think animatedknots.com does a good job of explaining the strengths and weaknesses in the application of the knots it illustrates. In fact, animatedknots does so better than any other source that I have seen. And the common way to do something is not always the best way to do it - which I believe could have been the highest direction this thread could have taken.



Minnewaska said:


> Two rivers and a bridge is correct.


In the instructional books, articles, and videos I have watched, I have seen several ways hitch to a dock cleat. They all have their good reasons for doing it the way they do. The point is: I will not claim that my way is the only correct way. I will not criticize or ridicule somebody for doing something differently than the way I do it. Instead, I will ask why it was done that way and try to learn something.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I will say that this got intense!

Im the first to admit that I suck at knots...however it hasnt stopped me from cruising or seing places.

someone once told me you can sail anywhere you want knowing 3 knots...I wont even mention them cause they are the most commonly used

in any case back to one ship stupid...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Any time you put a half hitch in a knot it can bind but unless you're dealing with a 3" tugboat towing line, it would be pretty hard to bind a cleat hitch that can't be easily undone. No way would I leave my dock lines without a hitch on the cleat. If a cleat has another line from another boat, I'll often just tie a bowline rather than worry about someone retying my line when I'm not there.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Got to loosen up people. :laugher :laugher


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Wow, I am amazed at how heated this thread got over best I can tell is nothing. I think the intent of this thread was good, implementation bad.

I think it would have been less heated, if we kept this to only stuff you yourself learned wrong...

I learned a lot of rigging up boats by simply doing... observing others, and reading. Many of the boats I've owned were not popular where I sailed, so similar rigging was hard to find.

My Capri 22 was one of only 2 on our lake. I had 3 aft end lines on my boom... I used the one that was the longest as the outhaul, and found it to be a PITA to adjust under way. But it worked and when I unloaded the main, I could tighten it.

Anyway I posted a picture online of the aft end of the boom on the Capri 22 forum... one of the guys right away goes, why are you using your flattening reef as your outhaul? I said REALLY? Yep, the posted picture was to help someone figure out how to setup their outhaul! Sure enough there was a rope to wire on the middle sheave that worked nicely with 4:1.

DUH.

Interestingly enough, the boom of the Capri 25 (my next boat) was identical to the Capri 22. On that boat I decided to upgrade the outhaul to 8:1, and I got a thorough understanding as to why the system works the way it does.










and By the way it was a bear to get all this stuff into the boom and aligned correctly... cause there is an axle that goes across the boom to hold the start of the rig... then out to a sheave at the aft end, then back to the foreward end, then back to a clam cleat on the side you see above.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Oh another one I learned wrong as a kid...
I was taught that these were jam cleats...








Wasn't until I needed to order replacements for my Capri 22 where all the plastic clams were toast that I realized they were clams... and that there was a "clam cleat" brand.

I've heard others refer to CAM cleats as JAM cleats too...

For the record I THINK this is a jam cleat... and frankly I've not run into one on any of the boats I've been on... looks like a halyard cleat modified for specific use.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

guitarguy56 said:


> Got to loosen up people. :laugher :laugher


Any one can untie that knot, it has no half hitch


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jwing said:


> .....I will not criticize or ridicule somebody for doing something differently than the way I do it. Instead, I will ask why it was done that way and try to learn something.


Exactly how do you do it? Do you leave your lines in figure 8s around a cleat with no hitch? You did accuse "two rivers and bridge" as being one ship stupid. It simply isn't. One ship stupid, as defined by the OP, is learning something wrong.

The only real debate that I'm aware of, when properly tying a line to a cleat, is whether the initial wrap only needs to go under both horns, before beginning the figure 8, or whether it should wrap entirely around the cleat first. Both end in two rivers and bridge.

In fact, the variables for whether you start with a half or full wrap are going to be how slippery your line is on the cleat. If it's a small line and large cleat, a full wrap is a good idea.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

hpeer said:


> To take another riff on the dock cleat issue, in Atlatic Canada dock cleats are few and far between. The further East the fewer.
> 
> They tend to use a large ring attached to the dock with a lag screw and eye.


Interesting.

My experience with rings is when Med-mooring. I have two short lengths of chain on dock line that I shackle to the rings.

For side ties I think I would do as Jon appears to have done - bring the line back to the boat. I would use a second or third turn to avoid chafe but probably not a clove hitch -- if I need to get off the dock in a hurry it is nice to be able to do so completely from the boat.


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## Multihullgirl (Dec 2, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> I have two short lengths of chain on dock line that I shackle to the rings.
> 
> (snip)
> 
> if I need to get off the dock in a hurry it is nice to be able to do so completely from the boat.


I'm damned if I can figure out how you'd get off the dock in a hurry if you have to unshackle chain? Is there a trick?


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

I think it's pretty obvious that if you are tempted to offer "one ship stupid" advice on sailnet you will stand corrected post haste.
Regarding the jib lead cars. First I would only work on a loaded line under the most frantic of situations. Second, I would avoid working on the loaded end of a jib sheet. And finally, with the jib sheet lazy I can reach out and move the car for most any adjustment necessary without leaving the cockpit, and if I had to go forward for the most extreme setting, I'm working with a lazy sheet on the high side. So, I think that premise is incorrect as others have pointed out.
Secondly, I would never walk away from the dock without a secured cleat hitch. Funny things happen when you are away from your boat. 
John


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

overbored said:


> Any one can untie that knot, it has no half hitch


It was meant to liven up the discussion on knots. :laugher


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

There's always the Alexander-The-Great's-Gordian-Knot-Solution™ for recalcitrant knots:


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

I think everyone new to boats get this wrong: Confusing 'topsides', with 'deck'.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

We put our first boat in the water last June and my wife used the "if you can't tie a knot, tie a lot" method for a dock lines. Which is fine, small boat, small lake, short term. Then one day later in the summer I went to untie us and there it was, two rivers and a bridge!

I congratulated her and she said "Oh, I just watched what you did."

Yikes, she's watching me, I'd better make sure I'm doing things right


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Heres a new one, I have seen this in every marina I have ever been in. A guy comes down and spends a few days waxing his boat to a perfect shine. The next week he comes back to wash his shiny boat with Dishwashing soap removing all the wax he just laboriously applied. I could go into pressure washers literally destroying your boat but I'll get my butt kicked on this one for a while then move on to a fool and his pressure washer.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Multihullgirl said:


> I'm damned if I can figure out how you'd get off the dock in a hurry if you have to unshackle chain? Is there a trick?


The same way everyone else does (I stole the chain idea - I didn't make it up). I run a new line from the boat through the ring and back to the ring. I don't worry about chafe over 10 or 15 minutes.

Jack Tyler wrote a great piece: Med Mooring . Jack's article was an "aha" moment for me.

My chain is long enough to hang over a cleat or shackle to a ring. The short lengths of chain come in handy again and again on the boat.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Minnesail said:


> We put our first boat in the water last June and my wife used the "if you can't tie a knot, tie a lot" method for a dock lines. Which is fine, small boat, small lake, short term. Then one day later in the summer I went to untie us and there it was, two rivers and a bridge!
> 
> I congratulated her and she said "Oh, I just watched what you did."
> 
> Yikes, she's watching me, I'd better make sure I'm doing things right


That is amazing. I'd love to have a nickel for every word I've used in trying to teach people how to tie a cleat hitch. Some people never get it, especially the half hitch part. They just sit there holding the line trying to visualize how the line gets turned under creating one of the rivers and the bridge. Your wife must be a great visual learner!
John


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

barefootnavigator said:


> Heres a new one, I have seen this in every marina I have ever been in. A guy comes down and spends a few days waxing his boat to a perfect shine. The next week he comes back to wash his shiny boat with Dishwashing soap removing all the wax he just laboriously applied. I could go into pressure washers literally destroying your boat *but I'll get my butt kicked on this one for a while then move on* to a fool and his pressure washer.


You do like to stir the pot don't you? 

MedSailor


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

barefootnavigator said:


> I could go into pressure washers literally destroying your boat but I'll get my butt kicked on this one for a while then move on to a fool and his pressure washer.


On cleats I take a couple extra turns around the horns, and finish with a few wraps around the entire cleat. No hitch at all. Call me a fool, and idiot or a moron, I don't give a rats a**. It's worked for me for 35 years, never came loose, and never bound so I will continue with my foolish ways.

Now onto the pressure washing issue! Don't get me started on those losers!!! And whoever started saying "Wing ON wing", please stop! It's Wing and Wing, and always has been.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

As seen on the Dock:

The SeaRay pilot:









The "meh":








The belt-and-suspenders:









The overcaffeinated belt-and-suspenders:









The overcaffeinated SeaRay belt-and-suspenders:


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

MedSailor said:


> You do like to stir the pot don't you?
> 
> MedSailor


Or own sailnet troll.


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## gbgreen59 (Aug 20, 2013)

Last May I was a new boat owner, new sailor, and had ASA 101 behind me. I was setting up my dock lines by emulating a mentor in the slip next to me. I had one line that was about 15 feet too long. So, I decided to put my knots in practice. I spent about 20 minutes tying a bowline with the bitter end being about 15 feet long. I was really proud of myself in the end.

So, a few weeks later I'm looking through various knots and came across the term "on a bight". "Oh crap"...there is a figure 8 on a bight and a bowline on a bight. Either would have been appropriate (easier) instead of tying a bowline with 15 feet of bitter end....really embarrassing...I'm sure the slip neighbors were amused..."should we go over there and say something....naaah"


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

bljones said:


> As seen on the Dock:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> The overcaffeinated SeaRay belt-and-suspenders:


*CTHULHU LIVES!*



gbgreen59 said:


> [snip]
> 
> So, a few weeks later I'm looking through various knots and came across the term "on a bite". "Oh crap"...there is a figure 8 on a bite and a bowline on a bite. Either would have been appropriate (easier) instead of tying a bowline with 15 feet of bitter end....really embarrassing...I'm sure the slip neighbors were amused..."should we go over there and say something....naaah"


*How to Tie a Bowline on the Bight*


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

JonEisberg said:


> Whenever you do find them, however, they at least appear to be of sufficient strength...


OK, I gotta ask, where are you? I don't recognize those ports.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

hpeer said:


> OK, I gotta ask, where are you? I don't recognize those ports.


The first is from McCallum, Newfoundland, along the S coast on Hermitage Bay...

The second is Nain, Labrador's northernmost settlement, and the end of the line for the NORTHERN RANGER - although this pic was shot when she came into Black Tickle... If I could be the captain of any ship, anywhere, it just might be the NORTHERN RANGER... 

Northern Ranger


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

I've been to Hare Bay, Francious, Grey River, and Grand Banks, but not mcCallum. I've been to Battle Harbour, but not further North. St Pierre a couple of times.

I saw the Northern Ranger in Herrington Harbour, Quebeck a couple of years ago.

Agreed, neat part of the world.


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## trantor12020 (Mar 11, 2006)

I once had a set of crew on my boat. One of them coil my ropes between her palm and elbow. I asked which ninkapo instructor taught her that. She pointed to the other crew, who was a dinghy instructor. In ensuring disagreement, I called the instructor's instructor ninkapo as well. That ends the sailing.  So was I wrong?


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

trantor12020 said:


> I once had a set of crew on my boat. One of them coil my ropes between her palm and elbow. I asked which ninkapo instructor taught her that. She pointed to the other crew, who was a dinghy instructor. In ensuring disagreement, I called the instructor's instructor ninkapo as well. That ends the sailing.  So was I wrong?


I assume it was braided line, if so the proper way to coil it so it won't get tangled is the figure 8. You would be surprised how many boat owners do it wrong.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

trantor12020 said:


> I once had a set of crew on my boat. One of them coil my ropes between her palm and elbow.


If she was doing it in eights like bfn said, then you need to eat your hat. That is a great way to do dinghy lines, or small lines on any boat. Very race!


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Barquito said:


> I think everyone new to boats get this wrong: Confusing 'topsides', with 'deck'.


You kidding? Every other week, someone mistakes it here again on sailnet.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

...and confusing ceiling with overhead.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Floor for sole. Ceiling for coach roof. Bed for berth. Toilet for head. Some lilypuddian sailor's pronunciation of "deck" is pronounced "dick", then we really have a problem communicating.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Wench instead of winch.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Wench instead of winch.


One is a labour saving device used to raise and trim sails.
The other is available in one speed, multi speed and self-tailing styles.


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