# Man Overboard equipment and procedures



## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I am curious what plans and equipment everyone is set up to use in the event of a man overboard.

In Canada we are required to have a life ring with a 25' rope attached to it, and the other end attached to the boat. I have never seen a lot of value for this on a sailboat. The way I see it, if you are sailing at 6 or 7 kts and someone goes overboard, they are likely going to be more than 25' astern long before anyone can toss them the ring, and even if you do react fast enough, the boat is likely still moving and is likely to yank it out of their hands anyway. That setup only has value after you have got your sails down, and turned around to retrieve the swimmer.

On my boat I prefer to have a Lifesling on the rail, tethered to a Man Overboard Pole. The idea being that as soon as the person goes in, you can deploy the pole and sling. The flag will mark the person's approximate location, and and the victim can swim to the pole and find the lifesling. Then, once you've got the sails sorted and the boat turned around you can hopefully locate the swimmer quickly. The pole makes it easy to grab the rope attached to the life sling, which hopefully the swimmer is already wearing. Then it is a matter of getting them to the boarding ladder, or hoisting them out of the water using a halyard.

In all my years of racing and cruising, I have never had to deal with a genuine man overboard situation, although some of the boats I raced on did do the occasional drill, and of course there was always the "hat overboard" drills when cruising, but you never know how things will actually play out in a real emergency situation.

What do YOU do to plan for an MOB situation?

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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

First and foremost we wear PFD's if the boat is moving.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

paulinnanaimo said:


> First and foremost we wear PFD's if the boat is moving.


Yes, of course, but if you are out in rough weather, how do you spot the person in the water? A head and shoulders are easily obscured by even modest waves. It is very easy to lose sight of someone. Ideally with a full crew one person is assigned to do nothing but watch the victim and point continuously at them, but that's not so easy when you are the only one left on board!

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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

'Yes of course'. You must sail in some of the same areas that we sail; and so I'm sure you will agree that many sailors do not adhere to this practice.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

I agree with your assessment of the Life Ring. I have a horseshoe buoy with at least 30 ft. floating line attached to it, but the bitter end is NOT attached to the boat. I believe, the intent is that you try to get close to the MOB with the Type IV but if they can't grab the Buoy THEY could reel it in with the floating line. ( as opposed to you reeling them in like a fish ). At night I attach a floating strobe to it. 

I have come to believe that the Ring is probably better than a horseshoe to carry; it's heavier and denser and would throw better. 

In either case it's best that people wear Life Jackets. Personal locator beacons with strobes would be helpful. 

I have a pole and flag, but have only carried it offshore. 

I also have a Life Sling attached to the Stern for retrieval 

Beyond that, I think you throw everything that floats until you can get to them. 

The toughest challenge after getting back to a MOB is getting them aboard if they are injured or unconscious


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I pretty much always wear my pfd on deck. My PFD is equipped with several pockets. Right pocket is a submersible vhf, center pocket has a 406 mhz PLB as well as my head lamp. There is also a pealess whistle, knife and reflective tape on my vest. If you are equipped with AIS, there are AIS plbs you can get. I think they would be nice. In the shoulder seasons I wear a dry suit.

Double check the length of your buoyant heaving line. For some reason 15 meters/50 ft sounds familiar.

Practice getting back on board on a nice day at anchor.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Arcb said:


> I pretty much always wear my pfd on deck. My PFD is equipped with several pockets. Right pocket is a submersible vhf, center pocket has a 406 mhz PLB as well as my head lamp. There is also a pealess whistle, knife and reflective tape on my vest. If you are equipped with AIS, there are AIS plbs you can get. I think they would be nice. In the shoulder seasons I wear a dry suit.
> 
> Double check the length of your buoyant heaving line. For some reason 15 meters/50 ft sounds familiar.
> 
> Practice getting back on board on a nice day at anchor.


We are required to carry a heaving line as well as the life ring.

The thing about the life ring is that, while it is heavier and therefore easy to throw further, but that weight could also make it dangerous. If you accidentally hit them in the head with it, you could potentially knock them unconscious with it!

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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

paulinnanaimo said:


> 'Yes of course'. You must sail in some of the same areas that we sail; and so I'm sure you will agree that many sailors do not adhere to this practice.


This is true, although it is much more common than it used to be thanks to the invention of inflatables.

To be honest, we do not adhere strictly to the "whenever the boat is moving" rule. We wear them when we consider the conditions warrant it. For example, if we are motoring, or sailing in very light wind and flat sea conditions in protected waters we don't always wear them. If I am wearing sea boots and foul weather pants I always wear it, because it is really hard to swim in foulies!

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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Dp


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hello,

IMHO there are number of scenarios to consider:
1. Are you the Man Over Board (MOB) or the Crew Still On Board (CSOB)?
2. Are you on a fully crewed boat, a fully crewed boat that is racing, or a cruising boat that is short handed?

Personally, I like to be responsible for myself. So I almost always wear my inflatable PFD (auto inflate, has a light and whistle attached), and carry a hand held VHF with DSC and a strobe (Standard Horizon). Where I sail the water is usually warm enough so I don't have to worry about freezing to death. I figure that if I can float, be seen, and communicate, I will probably survive a MOB situation. I realize that if it's dark and rough, the conditions that a MOB is most likely to occur, it may take some time for someone to find me. I hope I am prepared for that.

As the CSOB, there are many things to worry about, including stopping the boat, lowering sail, finding the MOB, and then, the recovery. On a fully crewed boat the recovery should be a lot easier. On a short handed boat this is probably the most difficult thing to do. I have a life sling, life ring, floating cushions, etc. In my mind, I am able to stop the boat, return to the MOB, get them the life sling, and use a halyard to recover them. In a real situation I have no idea how well this would work. In calm conditions it's probably easy. In rough conditions I honestly don't know. 

Some of the guys I race with don't wear PFD's. When we are racing at night I tell them that, honestly, if you go overboard, you are most likely dead. 

Barry


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

We have a lifesling, but consider it useful only for recovery, not for immediately throwing to a victim. If you see someone go over, you pull the grenade pin on the rail MOM unit, which releases a trap door and drops an inflatable horsecollar, 6ft marker pole and light overboard. Hopefully, the victim can swim to it, but it will be relatively nearby, even if they don't. 

Our PFDs each have their own PLB attached. There is new tech which sends an AIS signal, which would be an even better idea, if I had an AIS receiver. Soon. 

I would give serious thought to self rescue and should be wearing a handheld vhf too.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> We have a lifesling, but consider it useful only for recovery, not for immediately throwing to a victim. If you see someone go over, you pull the grenade pin on the rail MOM unit, which releases a trap door and drops an inflatable horsecollar, 6ft marker pole and light overboard. Hopefully, the victim can swim to it, but it will be relatively nearby, even if they don't.
> 
> Our PFDs each have their own PLB attached. There is new tech which sends an AIS signal, which would be an even better idea, if I had an AIS receiver. Soon.
> 
> I would give serious thought to self rescue and should be wearing a handheld vhf too.


Yeah those MOM units look like a great idea! The MOM8-S is nice and compact! Maybe it's time to retire the old pole and lifesling setup in favor of one of those!

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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SchockT said:


> What do YOU do to plan for an MOB situation?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


I tell everyone who comes aboard that the edge of the boat is equivalent to a 900-foot cliff, and the odds of surviving either fall are about the same. In the islands, I add that they should take note of the nearest land as they are going overboard, and should immediately start swimming in that direction as soon as they hit the water because that *is* their best chance of survival!
I do not sail in harbors and more often than not the wind is up around 20 knots and the seas 5 to 7 feet, with the boat doing 7 to 9+ knots, so the above warnings are very, very real.
The best advice I can give is just do not under any circumstances have anyone go over the side.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SchockT said:


> Yeah those MOM units look like a great idea! The MOM8-S is nice and compact! Maybe it's time to retire the old pole and lifesling setup in favor of one of those!...


They both serve different purposes. The MOM will help get you back to the victim, with the inflated pole and provide flotation. The lifesling will help you get them back aboard. Both, in theory. Capt's point about not going overboard in the first place is what rules.

The MOM needs to be serviced every few years, just like a life raft. However, it's not nearly as expensive. Maybe $150-$200. For some reason, the soft case version can be serviced by the owner, with a kit that cost less than $50, but the hard case must be serviced by an authorized service center. I don't understand why. Something to consider.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

capta said:


> I tell everyone who comes aboard that the edge of the boat is equivalent to a 900-foot cliff, and the odds of surviving either fall are about the same. In the islands, I add that they should take note of the nearest land as they are going overboard, and should immediately start swimming in that direction as soon as they hit the water because that *is* their best chance of survival!
> 
> I do not sail in harbors and more often than not the wind is up around 20 knots and the seas 5 to 7 feet, with the boat doing 7 to 9+ knots, so the above warnings are very, very real.
> 
> The best advice I can give is just do not under any circumstances have anyone go over the side.


Wow! So essentially you tell your passengers "If you fall overboard you are on your own"! I bet that inspires confidence!

You sail in those conditions with no equipment or contingency plan for man overboard?

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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SchockT said:


> Wow! So essentially you tell your passengers "If you fall overboard you are on your own"! I bet that inspires confidence!
> 
> You sail in those conditions with no equipment or contingency plan for man overboard?.....


No, I'm certain that is not what he's saying at all. The message is exactly the right one for a briefing. MOBs are typically not recovered alive, from open water, despite the effort. In many cases, the MOB is injured going over and drowns, or is injured enough that they can't assist in their recovery. Job 1 is to stay on the boat.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SchockT said:


> Wow! So essentially you tell your passengers "If you fall overboard you are on your own"! I bet that inspires confidence!
> 
> You sail in those conditions with no equipment or contingency plan for man overboard?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


In over 5 decades on vessels of all kinds, but especially in the case of sailboats, I've not had one single person go overboard. I've been numerous gales offshore and even two hurricanes on sailboats at sea, and not had one idiot break that falling overboard rule.
On the other hand, as captain on USCG COI vessels, we were required to do MOB drills annually for the USCG personnel inspecting the vessel for her certification. If memory serves, we had less than 5 minutes to retrieve "Dolly" or whatever her name was on an 81-foot three-masted schooner under full sail, with passengers aboard (read' in the way here') and we never failed to even get close to the time limit.
Just because I can do something, and do very well at it according to several USCG officers, does not mean I want to do it, so I use every means at my disposal to prevent it from happening. And I guess that it has worked pretty damn well over the last five decades or so, don't you think?


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

I have a hard case MOM 8 and a Lifesling. MOM 8 is slick. Pull a quick pin and it self deploys. Recently had mine recertified. They had to replace inflatable staff. I have the large Lifesling. (some of my crew are big guys). Also MOB button on chartplotter and handheld GPS plus DSC on radio. This is all required for races like the MAC.

We actually practice MOB recovery yearly. Quick stop. One crew points at MOB and does nothing else until recovered. Check sheets, start engine and return. If mob is in water for long you need the lifesling to haul them aboard. We tried it with a 300lb guy once and had a heck of a time in flat water as the guy tired out pretty quickly and he was wearing a bulky PFD.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

SchockT said:


> Wow! So essentially you tell your passengers "If you fall overboard you are on your own"! I bet that inspires confidence!
> 
> You sail in those conditions with no equipment or contingency plan for man overboard?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


If you look at the recovery percentages in rough conditions in the open ocean by pro or near-pro racing crews, and them consider the average couples boat (now single handing), I think his advice is sound. The first two went over uninjured. Just in the last year or so (and I'm sure I can think of more).

Jon Santorilli (Chicogo Mac)
Simon Speirs (Clipper)
John Fisher (VOR)

Fair weather, in-shore racing is one thing. Off-shore and rough, altogether different. At the very least, you should be prepared to wait for hours with very low hopes. Hope you are dressed warmly.


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

I don't understand why he would tire out.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

capta said:


> In over 5 decades on vessels of all kinds, but especially in the case of sailboats, I've not had one single person go overboard. I've been numerous gales offshore and even two hurricanes on sailboats at sea, and not had one idiot break that falling overboard rule.
> 
> On the other hand, as captain on USCG COI vessels, we were required to do MOB drills annually for the USCG personnel inspecting the vessel for her certification. If memory serves, we had less than 5 minutes to retrieve "Dolly" or whatever her name was on an 81-foot three-masted schooner under full sail, with passengers aboard (read' in the way here') and we never failed to even get close to the time limit.
> 
> Just because I can do something, and do very well at it according to several USCG officers, does not mean I want to do it, so I use every means at my disposal to prevent it from happening. And I guess that it has worked pretty damn well over the last five decades or so, don't you think?


It is a good thing that you have never had a man overboard. I would say the vast majority of us can say the same thing. That doesnt mean it can't happen, and it certainly doesn't mean that you should not have a plan in place in case it does. I would have thought someone with your credentials would at least have some kind of plan. I get that "scaring" your passengers about the dangers of going overboard might make them extra cautious, but that doesnt mean it cant happen.

Telling someone that if they fall overboard their best bet at survival is to swim for shore just seems counter intuitive. Even if they are very strong swimmers, they aren't going to get far in strong wind and waves.

Surely you have put SOME thought into equipment and procedures just in case it happens?

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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

pdqaltair said:


> If you look at the recovery percentages in rough conditions in the open ocean by pro or near-pro racing crews, and them consider the average couples boat (now single handing), I think his advice is sound. The first two went over uninjured. Just in the last year or so (and I'm sure I can think of more).
> 
> Jon Santorilli (Chicogo Mac)
> 
> ...


I guess we are all looking at this through different lenses! You are citing extreme cases where sailors were lost at sea. The vast majority of us I think are recreational boaters, not professional sailors sailing extreme yachts at extreme limits.

I wonder what the statistics would show about recreational boaters going overboard, and their survival rate.

I would hazard to guess that most of us are not crossing oceans on a regular basis, although If I was crossing an ocean or sailing in extreme conditions, I would make damn sure everyone on deck was harnessed and tethered to the boat!

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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There are stats on MOB and survival rates. However, they are a bit misleading. I recall the majority of reported crew in the water incidents, resulted in fatality. However, I'm sure they are not all reported, particularly when not fatal. Further, you'll read something like 90% of MOB fatalities occur in calm water near shore. Of course, 99% of all boating is conducted there, so it's a false implication. 

Finally, I'm certain that when well offshore, most head Capta's advice. There is a serious focus on staying aboard. While the danger of not being recovered is very high, I think most protect themselves the best, when the risk is highest. He sails in an area of heavy seas and little rescue resources.

Finally, I do not read Capta's post to say he has no plan. He's saying he plans to not need his plan. 

Frank Borman once said ""A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skill." I think that's essential his point.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SchockT said:


> It is a good thing that you have never had a man overboard. I would say the vast majority of us can say the same thing. That doesnt mean it can't happen, and it certainly doesn't mean that you should not have a plan in place in case it does. I would have thought someone with your credentials would at least have some kind of plan. I get that "scaring" your passengers about the dangers of going overboard might make them extra cautious, but that doesnt mean it cant happen.
> 
> Telling someone that if they fall overboard their best bet at survival is to swim for shore just seems counter intuitive. Even if they are very strong swimmers, they aren't going to get far in strong wind and waves.
> 
> ...


The proper procedures are well documented (the Williamson turn, etc) and can be quite effective. However, realistically speaking, each incident is unique and the actions taken will be decided on the spot, depending upon many factors, most especially by the number of people still aboard the boat. 
I just know that at 9ish knots, in twenty knots of wind and 5-foot seas, by the time I've hit the MOB on the GPS and disengaged the autopilot, whoever is in the water will be lost from sight. 
In the case of a couple sailing and one goes over, consider which course of action *you, not I* would choose next. Make a mayday call or round up the boat and get her headed back toward the MOB. One gets you help faster, the other keeps you closer to the MOB. Obviously, the LifeSling is a great idea, but in the case of an unconscious MOB, how would it help? Are you (the only other person on the boat) going to jump in the water, too?
So, IMO, it doesn't matter how many times you run the scenario through your mind, if it happens, the likelihood of the MOB surviving is very low. Not too long ago on a race up north on a fully crewed race boat in local waters (with *zero* current), a MOB died.
I can't give anybody my recommendations for a MOB scenario as each is unique. But I will say, once again, just do not let it happen. My crew are advised to crawl up to the foredeck on their bellies like a snake, if necessary in heavy weather, no matter what it may do to their ego, but stay aboard the boat at all costs.
I'm sorry if this doesn't answer your question, but situational awareness is the number one answer to any question about preventing calamities at sea, and that beats any number of ways to remedy a momentary lapse in it, IMO.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Frank Borman once said ""A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skill." I think that's essential his point.


Very well said, thank you.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

SchockT said:


> I guess we are all looking at this through different lenses! You are citing extreme cases where sailors were lost at sea. The vast majority of us I think are recreational boaters, not professional sailors sailing extreme yachts at extreme limits.
> 
> I wonder what the statistics would show about recreational boaters going overboard, and their survival rate.
> 
> ...


The point Capta was defending had to do with him generally sailing in vigorous conditions. So yeah, we're on the same page. We need to understand that in vigorous conditions, MOB recovery is dicey at best. On the other hand, if you have a bunch of guys racing in the harbor in 10 knots, moving aggressively, someone may fall off and you can go get them... if you have a plan.

I sail solo much of the time, and I don't need an MOB recovery plan on those days! Even more so when the water is cold.


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

paulinnanaimo said:


> I don't understand why he would tire out.


Ever try swimming in an inflatable PFD? Also water temperature is a factor. Water was in mid 60s which is cold. 300lb guys use a lot of energy just to tread water and are a load to get back on the deck. On my current boat a lot easier with open transom. Never underestimate how hard it is to recover someone from the water.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Step one press the MOB button on the GPS chart plotter etc. 

Step two there should be a designated pointer. Their job is to point at the person in the water and they do not take their eyes of them not even for a second. 

Then you go about doing what ever you need to do to get the boat back to the MOB,

It is worth while doing a trial run on a recovery from the water no problem with 8 brawny crew and an open transom but a different story with a typical cruiser with only one other on board. 

There is a very scary vid around of a UK publication trialing different recovery techniques and gimmicks ALL MOST NOTHING WORKED. !


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Sanduskysailor said:


> Ever try swimming in an inflatable PFD? Also water temperature is a factor. Water was in mid 60s which is cold. 300lb guys use a lot of energy just to tread water and are a load to get back on the deck. On my current boat a lot easier with open transom. Never underestimate how hard it is to recover someone from the water.


We've done some crew recovery drills. For one I jumped in with my inflatable PFD. I was wearing jeans and a heavy sweatshirt to simulate some added difficulty (and I didn't want to soak my regular sailing clothes).

It was a bit difficult to swim back to the boat. The PFD is constraining, the clothes make dog paddling difficult, and the light wind and wave action wanted to push me away. Once I got back to the boat they threw me a halyard so I could tie a bowline to my harness. I was able to, but just barely. Another five minutes in the water and I don't think I could have.

I'm 170 lbs + the wet clothing and it was a lot of work for the guy on the primary winch to crank me up.

This was on a 40' Jeanneau. Late September in Lake Superior, so water temp was probably around 50ºF.


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## requiem (Jul 24, 2018)

capta said:


> Obviously, the LifeSling is a great idea, but in the case of an unconscious MOB, how would it help? Are you (the only other person on the boat) going to jump in the water, too?





Sanduskysailor said:


> Never underestimate how hard it is to recover someone from the water.


I'm reminded of the fatality just a few days ago near Monterey. Reports are that they got him to the boat but weren't able to get him out of the water; they ended up having to wait for the Coast Guard to do it.

My guest PFDs are fitted with a loop of dyneema bundled inside; if they go in the water I have something I can reach with a boat hook and use to haul someone in, even if they are unconscious. (Not sure I'd trust a non-sailor to manage a bowline or shackle in the water.)


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Sanduskysailor said:


> Never underestimate how hard it is to recover someone from the water.


Amen to that! The dummy the USCG uses for their MOB drills actually absorbs water, so the longer it takes the heavier the 'body'. The CG inspectors told us that by 5 minutes it was the equivalent of a 300# person. Thankfully my crew were so good we never had to deal with that!


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

capta said:


> Amen to that! The dummy the USCG uses for their MOB drills actually absorbs water, so the longer it takes the heavier the 'body'. The CG inspectors told us that by 5 minutes it was the equivalent of a 300# person.


Sounds like me on Poutine and wing night at the pub


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

I understand that retrieving heavy persons can be a problem. But, in Sanduskysailor's original post he stated that the water was calm, there were some big crew persons, the MOB was wearing a PFD, and the boat is equipped with a Lifesling. Under the circumstances the MOB should have relaxed and waited for the boat to come to him, you can't expect to chase down a moving boat. Once the sling is secured those big crewmen could have used a winch or block and tackle...you do it all the time going up the mast. I don't see how the MOB kicking and struggling would help anything.
I am not making light of the difficulty in bringing a man aboard; I just fail to understand why this guy was so worn out.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

requiem said:


> ... (Not sure I'd trust a non-sailor to manage a bowline or shackle in the water.)


In fact, this is why climbing carabiners excel in rescue situation. MUCH faster in stressful circumstances. Much less prone to snagging that marine versions.


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

SchockT said:


> I am curious what plans and equipment everyone is set up to use in the event of a man overboard.
> 
> In Canada we are required to have a life ring with a 25' rope attached to it, and the other end attached to the boat. I have never seen a lot of value for this on a sailboat. The way I see it, if you are sailing at 6 or 7 kts and someone goes overboard, they are likely going to be more than 25' astern long before anyone can toss them the ring, and even if you do react fast enough, the boat is likely still moving and is likely to yank it out of their hands anyway. That setup only has value after you have got your sails down, and turned around to retrieve the swimmer.
> 
> ...


AAANNNGGGGGHHHH!

You just failed my skipper interview MOB question.

I will not crew for anybody who believes it wise to delay immediately turning around and coming back to pluck me out of the water, for any reason. Dancing around, drifting away, dousing sails, (especially the ones needed to heave to, remain in control, and on station while pulling me back aboard) is an instant MOB procedure "fail" in my opinion.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have MOM8a and lifesling. Reality is if you go overboard you’re pretty much bye bye. 

On ocean passage there’s one up unless there’s weather. As captain I ask no evolutions are done and no one leaves the cockpit without some one watching but when I’m asleep I have no idea what goes on.

We have the personal AIS and gps devices. Even with those at night or in high seas likelihood of finding someone isn’t great.

We are two on board 95% of the time. Handling the boat. Figuring out how to get to spot of mob. Especially if you don’t know when they went seems very problematic.

Once sailing in the US northeast waters temperatures are such that survival times are quite limited. With a pfd you’re more likely to die of hypothermia than drowning.

In the Caribbean SAR options are quite limited. Especially when not in the coastal waters of any island country.

The amount of time spent obsessing about this is fruitless. We have all the gear. We do the drills. But rather think it’s more important to do everything possible to

NOT FALL OFF the boat!!!


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I don't understand the assumption that every one is sailing open ocean on a 40+ ft boat when man over board happens. Statistically that's the least likely time for it to happen, so I guess those people that do that kind of sailing can say, don't fall off.

But then there is the rest of us. I would say the odds of me capsizing single handed and getting temporarily separated from my boat are decently high, so I do prepare for it and don't pretend it will never happen.

People sailing fast dinghies and sport boats inshore should take it seriously too. Staying on board during a pitch pole on a sport boat isn't nearly so easy as staying on board a 50 ft cruising boat.

Man overboard can happen during mundane operations like launching a dinghy, anchoring, boarding a dinghy or even boarding a boat from the dock. People die while falling between the dock and the boat, frequently.

So, I think the message to try and stay on board is nice, but I also think it's nice to have a plan and some basic gear to help you execute the plan, especially if you are one of the majority of boaters on smaller boats, not operating off shore.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

outbound said:


> Have MOM8a and lifesling. Reality is if you go overboard you're pretty much bye bye.
> 
> On ocean passage there's one up unless there's weather. As captain I ask no evolutions are done and no one leaves the cockpit without some one watching but when I'm asleep I have no idea what goes on.
> 
> ...


Ok, so you are sailing downwind at 6 kts and for whatever reason your foredeck guy falls overboard. What do you propose? Just turn around immediately without dropping any sails? I'd like to see how that works out for you! If I need to get back upwind to rescue an MOB I'm going to use the engine. Why would you not want an extra flotation device and a tall flag marking your position while you wait to be picked up?

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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Here's a video of a real Man Overboard.

It is not a 30 000 pound boat crossing an ocean. It's a day sailer on inshore, but still fairly lively conditions. Water temp 11 celcius. So cold enough you wouldn't want to take your time.

The crew handled it. The spinnaker did of course have to come down.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

SchockT said:


> Ok, so you are sailing downwind at 6 kts and for whatever reason your foredeck guy falls overboard. What do you propose? Just turn around immediately without dropping any sails? I'd like to see how that works out for you! If I need to get back upwind to rescue an MOB I'm going to use the engine. Why would you not want an extra flotation device and a tall flag marking your position while you wait to be picked up?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


Sorry, this was meant to be a reply to Boatsurgeons post!

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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

SchockT said:


> Ok, so you are sailing downwind at 6 kts and for whatever reason your foredeck guy falls overboard. What do you propose? Just turn around immediately without dropping any sails? I'd like to see how that works out for you! If I need to get back upwind to rescue an MOB I'm going to use the engine. Why would you not want an extra flotation device and a tall flag marking your position while you wait to be picked up?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


I responded to your general statement with a general response.

We can dick around forever with very specific scenarios that may prove rare exceptions to the generalities we were discussing, but this is then not speaking in generalities any more, as I understood we were, else there would have been many other very specific conditions to be included that weren't.

My point was, that many include "sorting out sails", meaning striking the engine and heading windward (perhaps away from the MOB) to douse sails, as a part of their "general" MOB procedure.

I believe this to be a serious flaw.

In rare exceptions, dousing "a" sail may be prudent (such as where a symmetrical was flying), but in pretty much all other cases "sorting out sails" would be a waste of precious time, a distraction from keeping eyes on the MOB, could slow progress returning to the MOB, looping around them to draw the deployed life sling within reach and then heaving to, to keep the boat under control and on station, and so that the one at the helm can assist MOB recovery.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

boatsurgeon said:


> I believe this to be a serious flaw.
> 
> In rare exceptions, dousing "a" sail may be prudent (such as where a symmetrical was flying), but in pretty much all other cases "sorting out sails" would be a waste of precious time, a distraction from keeping eyes on the MOB, could slow progress returning to the MOB, looping around them to draw the deployed life sling within reach and then heaving to, to keep the boat under control and on station, and so that the one at the helm can assist MOB recovery.


First off, can I assume that your sailing partner is in the water and you are alone?
If so, flogging jib sheets often find their way into the prop and if you are still trying to keep your eye on the MOB, controlling those sheets is a lot of multitasking.
Second, the idea of heaving to in the wind with the sails you had up doing 6 knots before the MOB would most likely not work, and you would be moving away from your MOB again, rather quickly. Heaven forbid you have a sail poled out or some sort of chute up!
I'm not trying to pick on you, but assumptions like those in this post may not prove workable. It is all such a delicate balance and quite realistically a lot of luck. Let us hope that none of us is put in that position during our years of sailing.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

boatsurgeon said:


> I responded to your general statement with a general response.
> 
> We can dick around forever with very specific scenarios that may prove rare exceptions to the generalities we were discussing, but this is then not speaking in generalities any more, as I understood we were, else there would have been many other very specific conditions to be included that weren't.
> 
> ...


Again, I think we all visualize different scenarios that result in a man overboard. I dont envision losing someone overboard while comfortably sailing along with white sails, and some clumsy oaf just trips and falls in the water. To me it is more likely going to happen as a result of an event such as an unexpected broach or accidental gybe.

As I said before, I have never had to deal with a genuine man overboard, however, in my years of racing I have experienced ALMOST losing someone overboard a number of times, indeed I myself have come very close to swimming more than once. As Foredeck, I was the one up on the bow for gybes, sail changes, and anything else that needs dealing with forward. I can recall one particular instance while racing in San Francisco Bay where we had a spectacular wipe out, the boat on its side, and me hanging on to the mast with my legs in the water. When something like that happens, yes the boat has some sorting out to do before it can turn around and retrieve a swimmer. It is not a simple case of just heaving-to.

Even if you are just flying white sails, if you are powered up going off the wind, which is when such an event is likely to happen, then chances are you are going to be overpowered with that configuration going upwind. Again, you need to "sort out the sails", whether that means dropping all sails, or getting the headsail down/furled is purely a situational decision. The point being, there is very likely going to be a time lag before rescue maneuvers can be initiated. To believe otherwise I think is completely unrealistic.

That is why in my mind the first reaction needs to be to mark the person's approximate position, and that is why I carry a man overboard pole and lifesling. Although now I am thinking I might upgrade to a MOM-8!

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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

capta said:


> First off, can I assume that your sailing partner is in the water and you are alone?
> If so, flogging jib sheets often find their way into the prop and if you are still trying to keep your eye on the MOB, controlling those sheets is a lot of multitasking.
> Second, the idea of heaving to in the wind with the sails you had up doing 6 knots before the MOB would most likely not work, and you would be moving away from your MOB again, rather quickly. Heaven forbid you have a sail poled out or some sort of chute up!
> I'm not trying to pick on you, but assumptions like those in this post may not prove workable. It is all such a delicate balance and quite realistically a lot of luck. Let us hope that none of us is put in that position during our years of sailing.


Well, there are a million different possible scenarios, and only the rare exception "a" sail should be doused.

The only scenario I can think of, where dousing all sails would be preferred practice, is if nobody left aboard is competent to sail the boat, in which case, the skipper really screwed up his responsibility for crew selection and training.

If I am not confident the skipper and crew can operate the boat competently under sail, without dropping a sheet in the water and winding it up in the prop (which BTW is much more likely to happen when dousing sails), when they are supposed to be recovering the MOB, (which could be me), I don't want to be on that boat, with my life in their hands.

Can't heave to?!?!?!!?

Why not?

Properly hove to, the boat will drift much slower than just lying ahull with no sails, and it will be much steadier.

Bare poles and any wind/sea state, that boat is going to drift and rock like crazy making MOB recovery dangerous, compared to being hove to.

With wind waves only 1/2 the beam, about 3 knots of way on is the minimum required under power to safely leave the helm with autopilot in command, and even then a big wave can kill progress, knock the bow off, the "off course" alarm come up, the auto disengage, and the boat drift out of control, typically ahull, and either rapidly away from or down on the MOB.

The trouble with MOB drills is people tend to do them under fair, sunny, conditions, where one could easily catch the boat swimming up to it and climb back aboard themselves.

Try it sometime rockin' and rollin' with some old fenders you intended to discard anyway.

Loop around it with the sling out, and just see what happens if you're not hove to.

Completely different story than fair conditions.

Screwing around dousing a sail that doesn't absolutely have to be, and may be needed to control the boat, only because one is not competent sailing the boat, may mean they just killed the MOB.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

boatsurgeon said:


> Can't heave to?!?!?!!?
> 
> Why not?


They might have a fairly high power to weight ratio cat boat, like... me.

There really is no one size fits all solution.

I have a general plan, I know what the text books have to say, and I do practice with the guys I race with. But if somebody is ejected in an accidental gybe, or a broach, or a knock down or stumbles when taking a pic, I am going to keep my plan in mind, but realistically, I am going to do what ever works.

I generally sail with my outboard dismounted, so there is a reasonable chance there is not going to be any motoring involved, but if it's there, and I think it will help, I will use it.


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

Arcb said:


> They might have a fairly high power to weight ratio cat boat, like... me.
> 
> There really is no one size fits all solution.
> 
> ...


Yeah I was going to mention the cat exception, but I don't often think of them as applying "generally", but I guess there are places like Florida, Bahamas, and Caribbean where they do.

I think we all need a definite MOB plan, and need to practice it, so that the instant one hears "Man Overboard", there is no sorting out of "stopping to think" required. The plan should go into immediate action.

In my opinion, the shortest distance travelled away from the MOB and the fastest route back is the best; if that mean "a" sail must be doused or the iron genny must be turned on, that's fine, as long as everyone doesn't leave the poor MOB wondering where they are going or what they are doing when he sees them dancing around the boat for who knows how long, while still sailing away from them.

Want a real eye opener?

On a fair night passage with a full moon, making about 5 knots or so, with someone else on the helm, toss an old fender and MOB pole (due for discarding) at some random time, unbeknownst to crew, and yell "Man Overboard".

If there is no standard MOB procedure drilled into everyone, you will not likely ever see that fender and pole again.

They are almost impossible to see at 400 meters (1/4 mile) in fair conditions in broad daylight.

Very sobering.

Any distance travelled, before turning the boat around, is putting very dangerous distance between the MOB and vessel.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

boatsurgeon said:


> Can't heave to?!?!?!!?
> 
> Why not?


Have you ever tried to heave to with a 120 or 150 genoa and a full main in 20 knots of wind, or even 15, in any kind of seas? I haven't so I'm not certain how it would work out, but I have done it with the proper sails in some pretty severe weather, and it takes a bit of fiddling around to get the boat to settle down.
If you've got your wits together, and not powering madly into the wind, on most boats it only takes a minute or so to get the jib furled or dropped, sheets tight and out of the water, and then you can be on your way in much more control of the situation.
A hasty, hell bent for leatther approach to life-saving is rarely successful.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

capta said:


> Have you ever tried to heave to with a 120 or 150 genoa and a full main in 20 knots of wind, or even 15, in any kind of seas? I haven't so I'm not certain how it would work out, but I have done it with the proper sails in some pretty severe weather, and it takes a bit of fiddling around to get the boat to settle down.
> 
> If you've got your wits together, and not powering madly into the wind, on most boats it only takes a minute or so to get the jib furled or dropped, sheets tight and out of the water, and then you can be on your way in much more control of the situation.
> 
> A hasty, hell bent for leatther approach to life-saving is rarely successful.


I agree!

To be honest, heaving-to is not something I have much experience with as a coastal sailor, but it is my understanding that some boats heave-to better than others. Full keel boats do it more willingly than fin keel boats etc. Perhaps it is a maneuver that could be useful AFTER you have made your way back to the victim, but even assuming your current sail plan is appropriate for upwind sailing in the given conditions, but why would you tack your way back upwind when it is much faster to motor directly upwind? (Assuming the boat is capable of motoring in the wind and wave conditions of course). Choosing to sail when the rescue can be made quicker under power does not demonstrate superior seamanship it demonstrates poor judgement!

Once the victim has been located, and a rope has been connected to them it doesnt matter if they and the boat drift, assuming there is sea room. All hands can focus on the recovery. If you still have sails up, and the boat is not co-operating in staying how-to, you've got one more problem to deal with.

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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Had occasion to spend a bit of time with a long term sailnetter in Rodney Bay. That person started a good thread here recently that resulted in some thoughtful posts. When I questioned that individual about the replies recieved that person noted it’s fairly immediately apparent who has faced the situations discussed or has had to think long and hard about them them due to circumstances and those who haven’t.
Although statistically men go mob more often then women and usually unzipped and with ethanol on board I thought this discussion pertained to sober sailors who go mob while cruising or racing. This makes me think that unlike those just asking for trouble the OP is looking for serious thoughtful answers.
Finding a mob is the first concern as stated by myself and others. As previously stated personal AIS or gps devices may help. One could argue which is better. I think having both capabilities would be best especially if trigger hydrostatically.
Mom 8a or equivalent devices immediately deployed have merit. You simply can’t see the head of a person at night, with any kind of waves, at any kind of distance. Mob should be instructed to swim to the inflated pylon. 
Stop the boat. Talking about hoving to is frankly ridiculous. Even in a traditional full keeled boat you lose time, move away from the mob, and are not looking at the mob so lose sight of the mob. Aftering hoving to yo still have to un hove to to get to them. I had a old full keeled canoe sterner tayana. It would hove too. Took awhile to get right and traveled quite a bit while doing it. Current boat fore reaches. Head into the wind boat stops. Period.
What goes on with a dozen or half a dozen professional sailors isn’t really germain either. We are mostly amateurs. We mostly sail short handed. We rarely have more than two on deck. Racers may have more and maybe the some of the commonly taught techniques would work for them but I stand by what I posted earlier. They don’t work for the average cruising couple or family.The coastal/offshore/ocean/fair weather/storm/day/night stuff is all a red herring in my view. If some one falls off the boat it could occur at anytime and anyplace.
In fact at night or in weather think we’re less likely to go overboard as there’s no question we’d be tethered.
Whatever you think is right test it. We did and found much to be desired by many of the taught techniques. Whatever equipment you buy test it. Go though a drill with it. Find folks don’t do the simple things. Replace there CO2 cartridges, manually blow up their devices and leave them blown up for 16 hours. Look at the stress tabs on harnesses. So they blow big bucks on this stuff and it won’t even work if needed.


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

capta said:


> Have you ever tried to heave to with a 120 or 150 genoa and a full main in 20 knots of wind, or even 15, in any kind of seas? I haven't so I'm not certain how it would work out, but I have done it with the proper sails in some pretty severe weather, and it takes a bit of fiddling around to get the boat to settle down.
> If you've got your wits together, and not powering madly into the wind, on most boats it only takes a minute or so to get the jib furled or dropped, sheets tight and out of the water, and then you can be on your way in much more control of the situation.
> A hasty, hell bent for leatther approach to life-saving is rarely successful.


I believe differently.

Heaving to is a standard sailing maneuver like tacking and gybing, that can be executed in pretty much any condition the boat can be safely sailed in.

There should be no "fiddling" required to heave to.

From close-hauled:
1. Turn the bow through the wind, leaving the foresail sheeted.
2. Turn back up toward the wind (without going back through it), while easing the main.
3. When the boat is confirmed balanced, lock the helm.

(Some boats may not heave to well, but most do. I won't own one that doesn't.)

Returning to the MOB without delay or distraction, is neither difficult, hell bent, nor overly hasty; it is simply good seamanship.

A "minute or so" dousing a sail that doesn't need to be, can be the difference between lost and recovered MOB.

Further, if the vessel is double-handed, other crew is incapacitated, or otherwise incapable, the skipper may be required to leave the helm to assist MOB recovery, and the safest way to do so is with the boat hove to.

This is the advantage of a sailboat over a power boat in this kind of situation.

It has sails, they stabilize the boat in seas, it can heave to, and nobody needs to remain white-knuckled on the helm while the MOB drowns.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

There's only 1 person in the known universe who can heave my boat to.

My. MOB method is easy and works with most modern boats:

STOP the boat. 
Engine ON
Power back to MOB. 


Points: Stopping the boat usually means going into the wind. 
Keeping an eye on mob is difficult anyway. 
Let the sails fly/flap/flog my life is worth more than sailcloth 
Modern engines can overpower sails usually.get back to close proximity to MOB (where he can easily be seen) and that's where sails can be dropped etc. 
If stopping the boat is quick enough the mob may have swum to the boat. 



Anyone tried this? It works in training, but I am looking for a Guinea pig to test in Real Life. Volunteers?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Arcb said:


> Here's a video of a real Man Overboard.
> 
> It is not a 30 000 pound boat crossing an ocean. It's a day sailer on inshore, but still fairly lively conditions. Water temp 11 celcius. So cold enough you wouldn't want to take your time.
> 
> The crew handled it. The spinnaker did of course have to come down.


WOW... well done... but not the sort of sailing I do... or want to do. Way too intense and wet! But I am sure many do... especially racers. These guys were really pushing it.

So I think the sort of sailing, size of boat is a determinant of MOB risk. I am sure many MOBs are from boardings of stationary boats.

Best practice is to stay in the cockpit and use a harness... and avoid work on the fore deck when the boat is heeled. Spinnaker or cruising chute should be for light air only.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

It's just not practical to choose one's crew, with MOB recovery as a mandatory filter. For that matter, singlehanded sailing has no crew. How's it any different, just because one's crew mate isn't all that strong. 

We've practiced all the quick stop, fig 8, etc methods to prove we can do them. I think it's highly unrealistic to think these will come together, when double handed in snotty seas. Further, I consider them totally useless at night. They seem nice for recovering someone onto a J-24. There is absolutely no way one will heave-to on our boat, when the 150 genoa is fully out. 

Our method is simple......

Pull the pin on the MOM. (press the MOB button on the plotter)
Turn the boat directly into the wind and stop it. 
Engine on.
Now figure out what it will take to get back to the MOB. If you were deep downwind, you're already on your way back. Call the CG on your way back to the victim. Stay focused on recovery, you are not required to respond to every hail from the CG, you just want them on notice. Tell them to standby if you have to.

None of this is very assured of success, so earlier emphasis on staying aboard was well made. Tether in, whenever this is a risk. I'm a big believer in self-rescue. Your pfd needs some sort of location device. Ours carry PLBs. I should really add the handheld vhf radio. I have tethered the InReach to me, when on watch. Admittedly, it's been as motivated by not wanting to drop it overboard.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

SanderO said:


> WOW... well done... but not the sort of sailing I do... or want to do. Way too intense and wet! But I am sure many do... especially racers. These guys were really pushing it.
> 
> So I think the sort of sailing, size of boat is a determinant of MOB risk. I am sure many MOBs are from boardings of stationary boats.
> 
> Best practice is to stay in the cockpit and use a harness... and avoid work on the fore deck when the boat is heeled. Spinnaker or cruising chute should be for light air only.


I think this type of sailing is getting more popular with younger generations. 5 years ago I had several friends my own age with cruising style keel boats but now they have almost all traded them in for faster lighter boats, my self included.

Minnewaska: Personally, I think the VHF is a nice touch. I know of a few guys that have gotten in to trouble, triggered the PLB and then used the VHF to communicate with the CG when they got close.

I am aware of one just this month where an experienced single handed racer was in bad shape with sea sickness and was able to chat with the CG chopper as he abandoned.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Arcb said:


> I think this type of sailing is getting more popular with younger generations. 5 years ago I had several friends my own age with cruising style keel boats but now they have almost all traded them in for faster lighter boats, my self included.


I have no idea of what old cruisers are doing. I can see them having a smaller fun boat to go fast and get wet in for an afternoon or fun. I see some on boogie boards, kyacks and even wind surfing. Not my cuppa.... I have slowed down (reaction time and so on)


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

Minnewaska said:


> It's just not practical to choose one's crew, with MOB recovery as a mandatory filter. For that matter, singlehanded sailing has no crew. How's it any different, just because one's crew mate isn't all that strong.
> 
> We've practiced all the quick stop, fig 8, etc methods to prove we can do them. I think it's highly unrealistic to think these will come together, when double handed in snotty seas. Further, I consider them totally useless at night. They seem nice for recovering someone onto a J-24. There is absolutely no way one will heave-to on our boat, when the 150 genoa is fully out.
> 
> ...


I believe it is the skipper's responsibility, to select crew, train crew, and verify capability (this means actual practice) for the conditions likely to be encountered.

It is the skipper's sole responsibility to know who they can count, to do what, when, in an emergency.

For anything more than a fairweather day sail in protected water, the skipper should ensure all active crew know where all safety equipment is on the boat, understand the MOB procedures, and are prepared to execute them instantly when called upon.

IMHO, turning away from the MOB, to head to wind, to douse a sail and start the engine, is a waste of precious time and resources. In fair weather, one may get away with it; in foul, almost certain MOB loss.

The boat can be turned on a dime under sail in an instant.

The boat is already heading back to the MOB on a reciprocal course; the distance between is becoming closer rather than further, the MOB is becoming more visible between waves, rather than less.

It is possible that a tack or gybe may be needed to round the MOB, before heaving to.

It's a sailboat.

If the MOB procedure is executed swiftly and effectively, no motor should be required, and the vessel should be back to the MOB long before the headsail can possibly be furled in.

I urge everyone, that the next time they are in open water in 20 knots + for a couple hours, drop a fender over the side, and go pick it back up, by hand, no boat hook or fishing net (either of which is totally ineffective for real MOB recovery other than to hold them close to the boat until it breaks or they pull it out your hands, or you fall in trying to hold onto them).

If you're not hove to, kiss the fender goodbye.

That could have been a loved one.

Sailing head to wind and stopping at the fender is not likely to be effective, if it takes more than a few seconds (and it will) to get the fender aboard. The bow will blow off, and the boat will drift away rapidly.

Of course no MOB procedure (disconnected from the vessel) is likely to be effective when single-handing.

That's no excuse for shirking responsibility to ensure crew know what to do, when not single-handing.

Imagine their anger, guilt, grief, for not learning what to do, to keep you from drowning.

If they don't care, I'd get different crew. ;-)


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

As usual, that's rather preachy and not at all practical. No one person is going to take our boat from full sail to hoved-to, by themselves. It's not a matter of crew selection. The mainsheet, for example, is 12 feet from the helm. A 150 genoa is going to wrap the stays, if you backwind it, before furling it. It would be an out of control mess, not as collected as you make it sound.

If someone were to fall overboard and the boat was turned to wind immediately, it wouldn't get all that far from the victim. One could just blow the sheets, if they felt necessary. No doubt, recovery is a problem, but that won't change hove-to. You can't reach over the side on our boat and reach the water. The victim better be able to self-rescue or they're screwed. 

Don't go overboard.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

boatsurgeon said:


> I believe it is the skipper's responsibility, to select crew, train crew, and verify capability (this means actual practice) for the conditions likely to be encountered.
> 
> It is the skipper's sole responsibility to know who they can count, to do what, when, in an emergency.
> 
> ...


Gee...does that mean I can start interviewing prospective new wives to crew for me? It might be nice to find a young rockstar sailor chick...but something tells me If I did that I wouldn't be able to keep the boat!

While I am at it, I guess I should sell my modern fin keeled boat for an old full keel blue water cruiser, just in case I need to heave to one day!

Seriously though, I have never had occasion, in my 30+ years of sailing, to heave-to. I am going to try it next time I am out, just to see how my boat handles it. Even if it is a maneuver I never use, it would be good to know if I can.

Thanks for all the feedback! If nothing else this thread has got me thinking about my plan, and what I might do to improve it.

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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

boatsurgeon said:


> If the MOB procedure is executed swiftly and effectively, no motor should be required, and the vessel should be back to the MOB long before the headsail can possibly be furled in.
> 
> I urge everyone, that the next time they are in open water in 20 knots + for a couple hours, drop a fender over the side, and go pick it back up, by hand, no boat hook or fishing net (either of which is totally ineffective for real MOB recovery other than to hold them close to the boat until it breaks or they pull it out your hands, or you fall in trying to hold onto them).
> 
> ...


This is a very boat specific thing IMO. It's much like the stay on board philosophy. Its effective on some boats in some situations, but not all boats in all situations.

I don't think it would be reasonable to reach down to the water on a boat with 15 ft beam and 5 ft freeboard. In fact, I think it might be dangerous to even try for some. What's worse than a man overboard? Two men overboard 

It would work on either of my boats, except the heave to part. Neither my cat boat nor my beach cat heave to. I have to luff up and stall the boat beside the object. It's not ideal, but it kind of works, even on windy, bumpy days.

I agree falling off your boat single handed would be very bad, but I do think there are a few things you can do to improve your odds of survival; dry suit, pfd, vhf, plb. Obviously not going to work in the middle of the ocean, but it could improve your odds in some situations I think.


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

SchockT said:


> Gee...does that mean I can start interviewing prospective new wives to crew for me? It might be nice to find a young rockstar sailor chick...but something tells me If I did that I wouldn't be able to keep the boat!
> 
> While I am at it, I guess I should sell my modern fin keeled boat for an old full keel blue water cruiser, just in case I need to heave to one day!
> 
> ...


I see lots of "along for the ride" spouses.

This really bothers me for both.

We encourage each other, and I encourage all husband/wife teams to be competent sailors, each capable of single-handing the boat under any conditions encountered, because some day, both lives may depend on it.

In my opinion, heaving to is a very basic sailing skill that every competent skipper should be well versed in.

In general, sloop rigged monohulls heave to just fine, regardless of keel type.

The only difference is responsiveness to the helm. Whodathunkit?

If one can balance their sails underway, they can balance their sails hove to. They just need to try it, and practice it, just like tacking and gybing.

There is no general reason a boat with a 150% genoa can't heave to.

I do this all the time on various sloops of various hull and keel configs.

If the wind conditions are such that the foresail can safely be up close-hauled, the boat can be safely hove to with it.

So the limit is (variation depending on boat) ~ 15 knots for 150%, +/-, 20 knots for a 135%, 25 knots for a 120%, 30 knots for 100%, (hank on or furled) 40 knots for the storm jib.

If it can be close-hauled (even with terrible sail shape) and it can be backwinded, it can be hove to.

And the boat and crew will be far better for it.

Basic seamanship.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

boatsurgeon said:


> I believe it is the skipper's responsibility, to select crew, train crew, and verify capability (this means actual practice) for the conditions likely to be encountered.
> 
> It is the skipper's sole responsibility to know who they can count, to do what, when, in an emergency. If they don't care, I'd get different crew. ;-)


I've been hiring and training crew for something like 5 decades and I certainly have much different criteria and a completely different idea of the skipper's responsibility.
First off, I want crew that will stay aboard the boat. As a matter of fact, that is rule 2, right after 'don't get hurt'. I have fired professional crew who have injured themselves through a lack of situational awareness. First port; long gone!
Second, I believe it is the skipper's job to keep the crew safe, not the other way around. Reducing sail, heaving to or whatever it takes to keep the crew and vessel safe.
There are jobs where the danger level is so high, like oil rig operations, that *not* having a serious injury or MOB is the exception, and to make that so is 100% the captain's job. You can't train for slamming into the rig supports in 20 foot seas! Everybody has to have 100% situational awareness and if an order is given it must be obeyed instantly. And you don't get to pick and choose your crew when you are assigned as captain on a commercial vessel! So you take what you've got and you keep them safe. *That is the captain's job!*
If a MOB occurs on a pleasure craft it is almost always the fault of the MOB. He or she lost situational awareness, even if the skipper screwed up and had too much sail up, gybed the boat or whatever, and didn't take proper precautions.
There have been a number of articles where professional sailors have come out against the use of tethers as they are not the end all and be all of safety under some circumstances.
Obviously, you have always had the time and crew pool to pick and choose your crews, but in many cases, this just isn't realistic. I can't count the times I've had to put together a delivery crew in 24 hours or less, and yet, not once, even on a sailing vessel that was capsized 3 times in a hurricane, has anyone ever gone over the side or had a serious injury.
Sometimes a captain gets lucky with crew, sometimes not. People change at sea! I had a cook on one 10 day trip, buy the food according to his meal planning, then 3 days out figured it was too much work, stopped taking watches and went to his bunk, leaving his watches and cooking to a crew who had not planned the meals and had no idea what was aboard. He was a perfect crew member from St T through PR and then completely changed 3 days out of PR.
All I can say is that if your experiences match your posts you are the luckiest captain I have ever met!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There aren't words or emojis significant enough to express my eye roll. What would be expected if the MOB fell over when the boat was motoring? Should one hoist the sails and heave-to? Eye roll. For that matter, most boats don't have sails. There is obviously more than one way to skin every cat. If the circumstances seem to call for sailing back, then do it. If they don't, blow the sheets and motor back, which I expect will most likely be the call. 

Stay on the boat.


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

Arcb said:


> This is a very boat specific thing IMO. It's much like the stay on board philosophy. Its effective on some boats in some situations, but not all boats in all situations.
> 
> I don't think it would be reasonable to reach down to the water on a boat with 15 ft beam and 5 ft draft. In fact, I think it might be dangerous to even try for some. What's worse than a man overboard? Two men overboard
> 
> ...


This is a funny thing.

I hear lots of owners tell me their boat won't heave to.

So we slip the lines and go out and do it, no problem.

It isn't that their boat can't, it's that for whatever reason, they're scared to try it, and if they tried it once and blew it, just due to lack of knowledge and skill, they never try again, and just declare it can't be done.

After I show a skipper how to heave to, they are forever grateful to have this new skill, that makes them a better sailor and their vessel safer.

If you don't think your boat can heave to, I recommend trying it, and if you just can get it, hire a professional skipper for an afternoon (which I'm not, and stand nothing to gain by this suggestion).

As I mentioned, I have no experience on cats (other than Hobies from my childhood and never attempted to heave to on one) though I've heard general claims, that it can't be done, though I can't imagine why not.

I just Googled, and low and behold received plenty of hits of folks successfully heaving to in catamarans.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

boatsurgeon said:


> This is a funny thing.
> 
> I hear lots of owners tell me their boat won't heave to.
> 
> ...


I will tell you what. Take a video camera and borrow somebodies Hobie 16. Take her out in 3-4 ft seas, 20-25 knot winds. Video yourself heaving to and upload it to the internet. I promise you, I will buy you a beer.


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

Minnewaska said:


> There aren't words or emojis significant enough to express my eye roll. What would be expected if the MOB fell over when the boat was motoring? Should one hoist the sails and heave-to? Eye roll. For that matter, most boats don't have sails. There is obviously more than one way to skin every cat. If the circumstances seem to call for sailing back, then do it. If they don't, blow the sheets and motor back, which I expect will most likely be the call.
> 
> Stay on the boat.


Of course if one is using the sailboat as a motorboat, they can perform MOB procedures as a motorboat.

It is possible, that if the motor boat is bouncing around and drifting too much that the MOB can't be successfully picked up, that the sails would have to be hoisted so the boat could be hove to settle it down.

Exactly the reason why I recommend leaving the sails that are required to heave to, up, if they are already up.

:cut_out_animated_em:


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Heaving the boat to in a MOB situation is, at best, very old methods.

Hove to a boat is less manoeuvrable, basically falling off to leeward with a forward speed keeping it in its slick. Still too much for a swimmer to catch up. 

Then there is no manoeuvrability to pick up the MOB. Just the time you want to be able to get your boat closest to afford a recovery your boat is in irons with the helm lashed.

There's not one reason to want this. 

I want my boat in the best most manoeuvrable state... And that means engine... And no imcumberances, and that means sails.

Sure, if someone competent is on the helm (me) then the boat could undrr some circumstances be turned immediately to the mob and stopped at the mobs position, whilst getting the engine on and ckearibg the deck for recovery. However in a long range cruising utuatiin most crew are below off watch. Then the safest method is a simple drill: Stop the boat. 

Another point is the recovery method.... Mine is to get the stern swim platform to the MOB, passing the main halyard over the Radar Arch and thrown/clipped/swum to the mob and then the halyard winched up hauling the mob vertically up onto the swim platform. 

As I sail solo or short handed, that is the best method for my boat so one person on board can rescue 1 person in the water. 

BTW just before you slam the 'swim a line to the mob' just remember, you might plan to always keep a person on board and never ever send a person swimming after a mob, but you will change your mind quick-smart if the mob is a baby, a child or your wife just a few inches out of reach and looking up at you in desperation. 


Mark


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## ps23435 (Jul 13, 2011)

Interesting discussions. Having read the original poster's request and the replies there is a lot of good discussion and advice regarding dealing with a man overboard under different conditions. One thing that I noticed is not addressed very much is the advisability of the use of PLBs and personal AIS beacons as critical MOB equipment (there were a couple mentions). And, it's not just having the AIS beacon on one's lifejacket, the boat needs to be equipped to pick up the signal! I know of one instance where the MOB had the AIS beacon but his boat had no AIS receiver! Here's a decent article discussing PLB vs AIS: https://www.soundingsonline.com/voices/epirb-ais-satellite.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks for the link. I have personal epirbs for a different reason. On passage >90% of the time there’s only one person on deck. If there’s two it’s real likely one is reading, dozing listening to headsets or sunning. So there maybe quite an interval before a mob situation is discovered. AIS is line of sight. With even moderate waves and even if ships antenna is high up it’s not unlikely my little boat is not going to pick up the AIS position. 
When not on passage there’s just the two of us. I’m the one more likely to go over. She’s the one more likely to be below. I’m the one more likely to go foreward. She knows how to use the radio. She knows how to use AIS and our other gadgets but it’s all she could do to run the boat and get me back. For that matter it would be all I could do as well.
Ideally you would have both but agree with the author that gps is probably first purchase for cruisers.
I’m taken aback by the comments on hoving too. I’ve been hoving too for lunch or potty breaks, to go fix something or just to chill for decades on my prior boats. Nevertheless totally agree that stopping the boat is to be preferred for reasons I and others mentioned. I would point out
If you brought the traveler up and eased the main to get twist when you throw the helm over the boat wont hove to. It would take quite some time to center the traveler let alone bring it to Windward and bring in the main sheet. Or to tighten the main sheet and have the traveler a bit to leeward. Or switch to solent from Genoa. Or if running under twin headsails and no main to raise the main. Or to (your choice as to why hoving to isn’t just flicking the helm over). 
I’m a newbie but have more than a few thousand miles of blue water under my keel. Still, after fiddling around for awhile best I can do is fore reach at about a knot on my current boat. I can’t envision any situation where a mob isn’t behind me and I won’t have to turn around to go get them. Don’t see hoving to as helpful in any way. In fact don’t see hoving too as a helpful storm tactic either. But that’s another discussion.
When I hoved to my boat continues to go up and down. Maybe yours doesn’t. But obviously if you bring your mob up to the side of your boat there’s a good chance you will crush them or at least bang them up a bit. Much rather bring them in over the sugar scoop which requires maneuvering which you can’t do hoped to.
People talk a lot about mob. My greater concern is going over the lifelines and drowning or getting really beat up as I’m hanging from the tether. My wife and I have discussed this. We try to use the 3’ arm not the 6’ on the tether whenever we can. We only go up the windward side. We have spare halyards ready to hoist the semimob up. But it’s still a worry.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

The interesting thing about these threads is the emphatic and conflicting of experienced individuals that know what they are talking about. We are taught that writing using simple, declarative sentences is more energetic--and that is true--but there are many times when things are "nearly so" or "nearly not." Most of the commenters are right about most or what they say, and probably all of it in their situation.

* Some boat don't heave to in any useful manner for MOB recovery. That is to say, they are not going to heave to in a manner sufficiently stable to be useful without reefing or some other adjustment that is not going to happen. They will heave to, but the attitude or stability is not useful. Perhaps the drift rate is too great. The point is, motoring is probably more practical. I've had a lot of boats, and some lay quietly, and some will not settle down unless sail adjustments are made, and even then, perhaps not at a useful angle. For example, a multihull that heaves to in a position that is significantly beam-on is not useful for most purposes (storm or MOB).

* There is more than one answer to the "how much do you rush back?" to the sailor question. For example, in the recent Chicago Mac accident, they got back really fast, but were not in sufficient control, and in fact seem to have run the swimmer over. That very well may have been a key factor; I don't know. Would it have been better if they had stopped the boat nearby (I agree with not sailing away), taken in sail, and more calmly motored back? Maybe it is better to be under sufficient control that you can get them the FIRST pass, even if that first pass takes longer. Hard to say, but certainly not obvious one way or the other. I'm sure it depends on many variables.

* There are fully crewed plans and there are single-handed plans (for couples boats). I seriously doubt they are the same. A singlehander can certainly pickup an MOB, but like EVERYTHING a singlehander does, it must be planned in a way the one person can do everything, and it takes longer.

* Tethers. I'm a big proponent and have published a number of articles on the engineering (if you are going to use them, like climbing gear, the engineering must reliable). That said, there are many times I don't use them or use them differently. I don't think it is as simple as pro-con. I think it is situational. 

And there is nothing like situational awareness. I think you can teach it. I know you can learn it.

And one final observation. The average age of the sailors dying as MOBs in races seems to be in the 50s. It's not young kids, doing dumb stuff. It's experienced sailors getting caught. I have a number of thoughts on that, but not an emphatic opionion I'm going to voice. More of a caution to pay attention.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Pdq can you link to good sources for couples boats. Would really appreciate it. Thanks


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I found another good MOB video. This one is great for me, because it is the exact model of beach cat that I own. The guys trapeze let go while sailing really pretty fast. This exact thing happened to me about 2 years ago, but I was lucky enough to have the jib sheet in one hand and the dog bone in the other and was able to pull myself back on board. I caught it on camera, but it is hard to see as the camera was mounted on the leeward hull. I suspect the OP didn't have this size of boat in mind when he posted, but the procedure is much the same, except that generally, it is pretty easy to reboard a small beach cat.

From what I can tell, they were cooking along hard on the wind. The trap somehow let go and the guy dropped, no warning. His buddy was quick, popped the main sheet nearly instantly to slow down and keep the boat on its feet. Then he came around depowered and returned, kind of on a reach. He left the jib backed only long enough to assist him through his tack, then repowered the jib. When he got close to his buddy in the water, he popped the jib, just let it fly. He also depowered the main, brought the boat alongside buddy in the water, who simply climbed aboard. Its rough enough in the video, that you lose sight of the MOB, at least from the camera angle, really quick. Nicely done.

I agree with some of the above posters who have heavier boats with more inertia, the engine can be a good way to stop the boat.


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

I think they did a good job getting back to the MOB and recovering him but I don't see anything there that makes this death defying in any way.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

paulinnanaimo said:


> I think they did a good job getting back to the MOB and recovering him but I don't see anything there that makes this death defying in any way.


You don't know how drunk they were!

(Just kidding, job well done all around.)


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I didnt mean to imply it was death defying. I just thought it was just a well executed MOB recovery. That is kind of what I have been saying. Small sporty boats do lose people over the side and deal with it, kind of frequently I think.

If I think of it from a risk perspective, bigger boats further offshore face generally greater consequence. Smaller boats close to shore face greater likelihood. But, if risk equals likelihood times consequence, which is the greater risk. I don't know the answer to that question, it is just a question, but it is one I do consider, especially given that I do sail very small boats in big water.


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## Rmaddy (Feb 8, 2019)

Jibe.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Rmaddy said:


> Jibe.


Please explain?

.


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## Rmaddy (Feb 8, 2019)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Rmaddy said:
> 
> 
> > Jibe.
> ...


Certainly. I do not mean:

"On any and all waters, under any and all prevailing conditions, regardless of equipment, experience and training, one should JIBE the boat..."

What I mean is that I like to have an initial strategy in mind so as to act quickly and reflexively.

Being a casual sailer of small boats on inland lakes in conditions most of you would consider becalmed, having no great expertise or experience, other things being equal, I will jibe the boat if possible, keeping the MOB in sight.

I work in a profession where crisis management is, at least initially, fairly formulaic. I like having a first plan in mind, but I won't shut my brain off entirely.

YMMV.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Rmaddy said:


> I work in a profession where crisis management is, at least initially, fairly formulaic. I like having a first plan in mind, but I won't shut my brain off entirely.
> 
> YMMV.


I agree. The military calls them drills. When a specific occurrence occurs a set drill is done... Upon the enemy shooting at the squad everyone yells "Contact Left" and the squad completes a set move. Then a mental appreciation can be conducted.

In this thread those drills have been:
Keep an eye on the MOB 
Then, either:
Hove to;
Stop;
Turn and sail towards the MOB;
Jibe.

The only things I don't like about jibing (per say) is: everyone needs to take their eye off the mob to watch the boom and sheets (even in a crash gybe), then reset sheets or one could be pinned down. 
Doesn't work if going downwind.

Oh, as a generalisation, the drill to be used needs to be so simple that it's practiced easily by boats. 
The reality is our boats are not naval vessels, we can't train our crews to a similar degree. We are out there for leisure not so some jumped up Captain Bligh can have continual MOB drills so Aunt Mable and the Reverend Thomas on board for a casual lunch and daysail have learned to properly salute the Poop Deck :grin

Mind you, Aunt Mabel is getting better. 
:devil


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

This video offers the simplest approach to a sailing MOB recovery maneuver.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

I tell my wife to call the Coast Guard and read to them the GPS coordinates.


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

This has been a most enlightening thread.

Most importantly, I agree with others that the first strategy is to STAY ON THE BOAT.

On our boats, we have always set rules. Whenever we encountered a situation where during the post mortem of any undesirable experience, where we felt we could have done better, we made a new "rule". I think we are now up to Rule # 3197. ;-)

Simple stuff, like rule # 8 - "Before heading out, all seacocks except engine seawater intake and cockpit drains are closed, deck hatches and cabin ports are closed and dogged", and rule # 17, "When the first reef goes in, (if not already) the PFDs are donned and tethers attached, and rule # 36 "When the second reef goes in, the cockpit locker lids are dogged and the companionway storm boards latched."

These are just OUR rules, based on our experience; they work on our boat.

The rules aren't managed in military discipline fashion, they're just a mutual understanding of the way things should be done in the future to avoid making the same mistake twice.

I believe many establish their MOB procedures, based on readings, personal procedure development, and practice; at least I hope so.

But after talking with many many sailors about MOB procedures, I realize few have actually practiced their procedures on the boat, even once, even with just a fender. Of the few who have, it has been in totally benign conditions, < 8 knots and 1/2 metre waves. This is because, nobody wants to lose equipment, or get hurt, or scare anyone, needlessly.

I don't believe practising MOB procedures in realistic conditions are needless. I feel they are essential, to verify the fair weather MOB procedure is actually valid, in anything but fair weather. A fairweather MOB recovery drill using a fender, is little more than plucking a balloon off the water. Even using a real live person, is like a "scheduled swim".

My experience, is that depending on the size of boat, once we get above 12-20 knots, and 1-2 metre waves, fairweather MOB procedures are typically doomed for failure. This may be why so many consider the MOB will likely be lost forever, in these conditions or worse. They simply know that their standard procedures are not likely to be effective.

Well, there is an alternative; develop and practice foul weather MOB procedures.

One of the biggest differences, is that it doesn't have to be very rough, before it is unsafe to attempt to recover the MOB at the stern (on that nice swim platform or sugar scoop with boarding ladder) as with a wave coming up and the stern coming down, the MOB will be smashed to bits, they may get chopped up by the spinning propeller (hello sharky), or a MOB retrieval line may get caught in the spinning propeller, stop the engine (hopefully before dismemberment, and now all maneuverability is lost, if depending on the engine to hold the vessel on station.

Instead, depending on size of vessel and stability, once we get to about 20 knots and 2 metre seas, the only safe MOB recovery location, is amidship, where boat pitching is minimal.

Incidentally, this is where the boarding ladder is on our personal boat. Its on a track, with locking sliders, so that it can be transferred to the opposite gateway in about 30 seconds, if required. Its normal position is on the starboard side. When not in use, it is collapsed (telescoping) and slid forward of the gate opening, to avoid interference getting on and off the boat from the dock under normal conditions. It is useable in the stowed position; one just needs to step over the lifelines. It has a lanyard so that it can deployed from the water. Many passersby have hollered to us, from the leeward side, that we are dragging a line in the water, as if we are unaware. We of course just smile and wave back and holler, "Thanks, it's supposed to be that way." (This lanyard is about a foot from the water on a starboard tack.)

Another issue of foulweather MOB recovery, is that the MOB may be wearing warm clothing and foul weather gear. WOW! There's a revelation! What I would like everyone reading this thread to do, is don warm clothing (e.g. polar fleece), their bib pants, offshore jacket, and boots, hop over the side, allow the clothing to "fill up" for 30 seconds, and then climb back up the boarding ladder (even using the swim platform if so equipped). Your 100 lb wife or daughter, just gained about 300 pounds and is not getting up that ladder under their own steam, and not even with a burley, very fit guy, spiked with adrenaline, without mechanical advantage.

Now remember, in foul weather conditions, it's not safe to even attempt to reboard the boat at the stern. So now we also have the midship freeboard to contend with. Can you even reach the MOB, to hand or attach the MOB retrieval gear?

The next issue about foulweather MOB recovery, is that when pointed up into the wind with no sails up, and the transmission in neutral so no lines will be wound around the propeller, the boat will coast to a stop, and then in no time (seconds) with no way on, and all underwater foils stalled, the boat will start to move astern, and the next wave will knock the bow off, so that the wind will catch the bow, spin the boat around, and it will start careening downwind surfing the waves, near or over hull speed, under bare poles. It may end up settling into lying ahull and drifting about 3 knots or faster down wind, taking breaking waves abeam. If the wave height is equal to beam and breaking, their is a distinct possibility the boat will roll. Remember that there are no sails up to dampen the wave induced roll. In all probability, the MOB is nowhere in site, and without some form of communication, is likely lost forever.

Alternatively, if the helmsperson plays the wheel and throttle (and no MOB recovery line happens to wrap the prop) the boat can be held to weather, on station. If the MOB drifts away from the boat, the wheel and throttle can be further played to edge in their direction. I've done this many times (actually, holding the boat on station in a turning basin during high winds, awaiting dock hands to prepare to assist a high wind docking procedure).

Now here is the problem. If the person at the helm playing the wheel and throttle is needed to leave the helm to assist MOB recover, even if they put the autohelm on, the same thing is going to happen, as did with no motor power at all, except now, when the boat turns down wind or ahull, the prop is turning at whatever revs were required to hold the boat on station to weather, driving the boat off the wind, even faster than the prior scenario.

So any MOB procedure, requiring the motor, to hold the boat on station, so the person can climb aboard under their own steam, will only work in fair weather, if the person is conscious, and not overly fatigued from treading water, or holding onto the MOB pole and flotation device, and just being overly panicked, for too long, because the MOB procedure called for doing all kinds of unnecessary things, before returning to the MOB, and due to drifting or motoring to windward, so far away that the MOB sighting was lost and then had to be searched for. 

I am absolutely shocked at the number who have such limited experience heaving to. 

I believe heaving to, is a basic sailing skill, that should be learned about the same time, as tacking and gybing, and while perhaps not practiced quite so frequently, at least enough, so that one can perform the action proficiently, without even thinking about it, whenever it would be useful (which is actually quite frequently if one is proficient at it and confident in their ability).

Many of the comments about the difficulty heaving to are completely unfounded in my opinion. All of the boats I have sailed (many) do not even require the main, to heave to effectively. In fact, best practice on most boats, and all I've been on, is to simply release the mainsheet to near or gently luffing behind the backwinded foresail. 

Perhaps this is why so many have had difficulty successfully completing the maneuver. For all of the boats I have been on heaving to, there is no mainsail trim required, other than to just ease the mainsheet to depower, so the boat can't pass back through the wind, against the backwinded foresail. Additionally, there is no need to adjust foresail area. In all cases I have hove to in, the foresail area used to sail close-hauled in, even when over-powered to max heel and verge of rounding up, is perfectly effective for heaving to. 

I am absolutely shocked by those discounting the merit of heaving to. I don't believe this is an "old fashioned" tactic at all, any moreso than tacking or gybing are, which have all been around for hundreds and hundreds of years. Anyone could refer to sailing in general with a derogatory "it's too old-fashioned" claim. If I'm called "old fashioned" as I pull a MOB aboard, vs, hollering to them from a distance after the first shark attack, "Sorry old chum, I had to take my sails down before coming back for you, and because I don't know how to heave to properly, I can't leave the helm to assist you aboard, but it's your own damn fault anyway, for falling off that 900 foot cliff I warned you about."

Of course I'm being a bit facetious, but I hope everyone gets the point.

Now the one thing that is absolutely blowing me away (har har), and I hope I can learn from this thread; in all of my experience, motoring a sailboat to windward, in any kind of wind, and any kind of sea state, it takes someone at the helm, to work the wheel and throttle CONSTANTLY to stay on station (as so many in this thread have recommended.)

So can anyone please advise, when one is fighting wind and waves to hold the boat on station with the engine propulsion, how can you possibly leave the helm for even a few seconds, to help assist MOB recovery amidship, if your 100 pound daughter, can't drag your clothing soaked, and foul weather gear filled, normally 100 pound wife aboard, even with the help of your 200 pound bricklayer brother? What do you tell them at the funeral? It's OK, they tried their best? Little consolation I'm afraid.

Remember, that in these foul weather conditions, your vessel will need about 3 knots of way on, to stay pointed to windward for the autohelm to hold the boat to windward, which is darn near fast enough to drown the MOB dangling over the side, or at least make their recovery even harder.

So what is the solution.

Simple.

Heave to.

While the boat may still rock and roll a bit, and drift maybe 1/2 - 1 knot (when hove to properly), compared to bare polls and helm station vacated, the vessel will be virtually motionless. This will enable the helmsperson to assist MOB recovery, which may be essential for a double-handed or short-handed crew.

BTW, my wife and I, while I consider "cruisers", do participate in double-handed, multi-day passage, offshore racing. The "rules" we have developed for MOB recovery, do not only apply to fully crewed race boats, they are the most effective we could develop and practice for every day boating, under any conditions that could be encountered.

If someone doesn't agree that our practices are "best", I really could care less, because we "know", by real experience (not just armchair theory) that they work, in fairweather and nasty, nasty conditions. Fortunately, we've never had to perform a real MOB exercise in anything but fairweather to about 12 knots and 1 meter waves. But we have lost enough old fenders in nasty conditions to know what is, and what isn't, likely to work, in a real situation. Based on these practice drills, we know, that attempting to stand at the helm, with bare poles, using the motor to hold on station, DOES NOT HAVE EVEN A REMOTE CHANCE OF WORKING in any conditions but fairweather and for a very fit MOB in little more than a swimsuit.

I understand, that this little post, is not likely to convince anyone, with fast held convictions that their MOB procedures are valid, to immediately change their mind or even slightly agree. 

What I do ask you to do, for YOUR sake and that of YOUR crew, is that the next time you are out in open water, in conditions where you would normally put the first reef in, and reduce the headsail to ~ 120%, (15-20 knots on most boats) practice your MOB procedure. Not with a person, because I fear what will happen to them. Use a MOB pole (if you have one, and I think everyone should) tied to a fender, with an old harness tied around it.

Follow your normal procedure, dousing sails and starting the engine if that is part if it. 

If you have lost sight of the MOB (pole) while doing so (and of course you will during these procedures) regain "eyes on the MOB", which likely won't be visible more than 400 meters away in good visibility, or much less in rain, mist, fog, dark, or any wave action. Start on a reciprocal course and if you just can't find them, lay out a search pattern starting from the centre of where you think they went over, and expanding outward, favouring the downwind or current drift direction. 

Once you spot the MOB (if ever), motor up alongside, and hold the vessel on station there. 

Now set "auto" for your current course (to windward) and leave the helm to rig your MOB hoisting gear, which could be a davit or outboard crane per your normal plan, but I want you to ignore those, as while the stern of the vessel crashing down on a fender is not likely to hurt it, in real life the MOB could be severely injured or killed. Instead, unrig an unused halyard that is normally led aft, so you have a long enough tail that you can keep ahold, while dangling the snap shackle down to the water.

Now because a fender can't connect the snap shackle (similar to an incapacitated or possibly even panicked real person with now cold extremities that just don't work, let alone the fingers to pull the shackle release), imagining that you don't wish to get in the cold rocky rolly water, with no one else aboard, unless you absolutely had to (and I don't recommend it to recover a fender) hook the fender harness with a boat hook, lift it up, connect the snap shackle, and drop it back over the side. Now hoist the MOB. Imagine if it had a 300 lb sack of wet cement connected. Unless you weigh way more than 300 lbs, you are likely to lift yourself off the deck, long before the MOB is raised off the water. So now you have to rig the halyard tail around that old mast winch (that you haven't used since you rigged the lines aft), cleat it off, go get the winch handle, and come back, all the while the MOB is attached by the halyard. Now raise MOB and drag it over the lifelines.

One thing to remember during all of this...

Once you leave the helm, you cannot return to gain control of the boat, because if the MOB is yet to be connected, they are likely to be lost again (if sighting regained the first time), perhaps this time for good, and if they were attached but not yet hoisted aboard, they have likely been dragged along side at sufficient speed to be drowned. The bright side is that you can recover the body for funeral services and friends and family to bid their last fairwell. Maybe someone could faintly play "taps" on a bugle, while the MOB pole and fender are buried in a dumpster. ;-)

So what is the alternative?

I can't speak for everyone, but on our boat, the following steps are exercised for every man overboard situation, real or drill, in any conditions:

1. Yell "Man Overboard". This alerts all crew (often just the wo of use, but sometimes more) there is an emergency (real or drill are treated the same), and triggers the rote learnings swiftly and proficiently to execute the plan. (1 second has passed.)

2. Deploy the MOB pole and life sling. (5 seconds have passed.)

3. Immediately turn the boat on reciprocal course back toward the MOB. In most cases, a flying sail will not be up, but it could be, (If only double-handed, the symmetrical was not likely up, unless this was our boat.) ;-) If fully crewed, the normal procedure for takedown on a mark rounding should be executed. If it hits the water, too bad, get it back aboard and stuffed down the hatch wet ASAP.) DO NOT FRIG WITH ENGINE OR SAILS before throwing the helm over to turn on reciprocal course.

4. If the MOB is directly up wind, (possibly not) determine if they can be returned to most quickly with existing sails up, or by taking eyes off them, to start the engine.

5. Loop around the MOB with the life sling dragging, just like turning a mark.

6. The instant the MOB is rounded and vessel headed up wind, heave to if the foresail is up, or just pop the main sheet if it's down.

7. Hopefully the foresail was up. (If not it may have to be raised if conditions are such that the boat will drift too quickly if not hove to, potentially drowning the MOB trying desperately to hang on the sling, with nobody at the helm to keep the boat on station.

8. Heave to.

9. Pull the MOB by the lifesling up to the gangway gate on the leeward side, where pitching and wave action is minimal. If the boat is hove to, rolling action will be minimal as well, and drift will likely be 1/2 to 1 knot instead of 3 knots or more, if the vessel was not hove to, and nobody is holding it on station with the engine.

10. Open gate lifeline, deploy the boarding ladder, and determine if the MOB can self recover.

11. If recovery assistance is needed, extend a halyard to them for attachment to their PFD / harness. 

12. If mechanical advantage is required to hoist them, use the mast winch and winch handle pocketed at the mast base.

13. If the MOB is incapacitated, on the short tether (3 foot) grab the boat hook (located on both deck handrails) hook on to the harness, and lift as high as possible with one hand, so that the halyard snap shackle can be attached, with the other.

14. Return the boat hook to its resting place inside the handrail. (So it isn't lost if required again, as the back-up is on the other side of the cabin roof.)

15. Under no circumstances is the person aboard to become untethered to the boat by their harness, to avoid doubling the MOB recovery required with nobody left aboard (ie, almost certain death for both).

16. With the MOB aboard, render any first aid required, which at the very least will likely include, getting them down below, into warm, dry clothes (and blankets in cold conditions) and something warm to drink unless hypothermic.

17. When prepared to get back underway:

i) Raise and secure the boarding ladder.
ii) Remount the MOB pole (if recovered).
iii) Reset the lifesling (and life ring if used).
iv) Hardness the mainsheet.
v) Unlock the helm and fall off.
vi) Pop the loaded sheet.
vii) Sheet in on opposite side.
viii) Sail away.
ix) Save obituary writing for another day.

OK, so some may disagree with every single word of this. That's fine, you do on your boat, what you think is right, but be gentle, as I took 4 hours away from my customers to write this, in the hope it may help someone.

If nothing else, maybe it will inspire someone to practice their all but forgotten MOB procedure just one more time, looking at it, from another perspective.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

boatsurgeon said:


> This has been a most enlightening thread.
> 
> Most importantly, I agree with others that the first strategy is to STAY ON THE BOAT.
> 
> ...


Sounds to me like you need some wheel time under power in heavy conditions to overcome your apprehensions. Of course all professional rescue craft are power driven vessels, you will never see the CG arrive for your rescue on a sailboat.

You can try tieing a weight to a fenderr with 3 or 4 feet of line to simulate the drift rate of a person, just don't get flustered and wrap the line in your prop. If you are too frightened, or lack the knowledge or the skill to try this on your own, you can hire a professional skipper to demonstrate the technique for you.

Or, if you don't have a reliable motor on your boat then you can join a structured course. Their are STCW certified courses that offer excellent introductory training on heavy weather boat handling under power. It's never too late to learn a new skill.

https://www.sstl.com/training-secto...tcw-operator-proficiency-in-fast-rescue-boat/


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

Arcb said:


> Sounds to me like you need some wheel time under power in heavy conditions to overcome your apprehensions.


Nope. I don't have any apprehensions. I have lots of wheel time, under power, in heavy conditions.

But tell me, how do you keep your vessel on station, under power, in heavy conditions, with nobody at the helm?



> Of course all professional rescue craft are power driven vessels, you will never see the CG arrive for your rescue on a sailboat.


Of course, as they need to get to the sailboat quickly, faster than one can in a typical sailboat. But you are already at the sailboat, YOU ARE ON IT.

And those USCG boats will be crewed with someone on the helm, full time, never leaving it, unless intentionally desired to drift at what ever speed the wind and waves will carry them.



> You can try tieing a weight to a fenderr with 3 or 4 feet of line to simulate the drift rate of a person, just don't get flustered and wrap the line in your prop. If you are too frightened, or lack the knowledge or the skill to try this on your own, you can hire a professional skipper to demonstrate the technique for you.


OK, so I've already mentioned, that if one can't heave to, they should hire a pro to teach them. But if anyone needs this pro for this purpose, or is too frightened to use a fender as a MOB practice, I know I don't want to be on their boat, and quite frankly, I don't think anyone else really should be, unless it is tied to the dock.



> Or, if you don't have a reliable motor on your boat then you can join a structured course. Their are STCW certified courses that offer excellent introductory training on heavy weather boat handling under power. It's never too late to learn a new skill.
> url]https://www.sstl.com/training-sectors/marine/marine-international/stcw-operator-proficiency-in-fast-rescue-boat/[/url]


I don't understand how this course can remedy an unreliable motor other than to advise, "Ensure the motor is in proper operating condition."

Which actually you bring up another great point, sailboats, when not hove to and no sails up in heavy conditions, are more likely to rock and roll and stir up water or crud in the fuel tank to stall the engine. It probably won't start again, until the water separator and secondary filter is drained, and fuel lines are bled. (These procedures are also very difficult to execute in heavy conditions, unless, wait for it, wait for it, YOU HEAVE TO. ;-)

I don't need any course to teach me that a boat held on station to windward under power in heavy conditions, requires someone at the helm full time. I already know this.

If you have taken this course you recommend, or know differently by other means, please share with us how you do it (other than suggest we take courses to teach us how to do the impossible)?

I'm waiting.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

boatsurgeon said:


> Nope. I don't have any apprehensions. I have lots of wheel time, under power, in heavy conditions.
> 
> But tell me, how do you keep your vessel on station, under power, in heavy conditions, with nobody at the helm?
> 
> ...


If you are the expert you claim to be, you shouldn't need me to answer these questions for you, do your research, get some practice.

Oh, and it sounds like this might be a good time to clean the crud out of your fuel tank


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

boatsurgeon said:


> .......If someone doesn't agree that our practices are "best", I really could care less, because *we "know", by real experience* (not just armchair theory) that they work, in fairweather and nasty, nasty conditions. Fortunately, *we've never had to perform a real MOB exercise in anything but fairweather* to about 12 knots and 1 meter waves. But we have lost enough old fenders in nasty conditions to know what is, and what isn't, likely to work, in a real situation........


The arrogant always make mistakes in their manifestos. I couldn't possible read it all, after I got to this gem. You've never done it, but are completely convinced you're right.

Most don't agree with you and making snotty comment that we can't heave-to, but you can, is ridiculous. 16 year old in their mother's basement kind of ridiculous. You do whatever you like on your boat, but I really get the impression that few volunteer to crew on your boat. Particularly, since you've apparently lost crew overboard in fair weather. Si o no?


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

Minnewaska said:


> The arrogant always make mistakes in their manifestos. I couldn't possible read it all, after I got to this gem. You've never done it, but are completely convinced you're right.
> 
> Most don't agree with you and making snotty comment that we can't heave-to, but you can, is ridiculous. 16 year old in their mother's basement kind of ridiculous. You do whatever you like on your boat, but I really get the impression that few volunteer to crew on your boat. Particularly, since you've apparently lost crew overboard in fair weather. Si o no?


Note that I have not been disrespectful to anyone.

Being surprised by someone's lack of skill or experience to perform basic sailing maneuvers, is not arrogant or disrespectful; it's a natural reaction.

By the way, we have performed our MOB drills in much heavier weather, just with fenders and not real people, as I clearly stated.

I've crewed on many boats, and I've had crew on mine many times, and I've had wives call me to plead that I crew on their husbands boat after I declined, and I have on occasions, on the provision that I am in charge, because the skipper/owner failed the interview, I didn't trust their capability, and I was not about to leave my life in their hands.

But since you have declared disagreement with my MOB procedure, answer me this, "If the helm station is left unattended to assist with heavy weather MOB recovery, what keeps the vessel on station, if not hove to?"

Just a respectful, simple question. Please respond in kind.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'll pass on the loaded question. We disagree and have all amply described our rationale already. Let it go. 

Wives begging you to Captain for their husbands. Thanks for the chuckle from that anonymous claim.


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

Minnewaska said:


> I'll pass on the loaded question.


OK, I accept this response as your acknowledgement that it simply is not possible to leave the helm under power, and the boat remain on station.

Fair enough.

I will let it go, (if you do too).


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

BS please lay down the tablets you pretend to have brought down from the mount.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

So he says offensive stuff and when called out about it by the people he’s offended he calls it,fake news. Then proposes actions others have found unsuccessful and when told why it is an inappropriate action in a variety of circumstances he states the untruth that they don’t know how to hove to rather than address the specifics. 
Guess BS is BS. Could be best sailor or a bad smell. It up to the reader to decide. Nevertheless he has adequately presented his opinion. Time to move on and not focus on one persons opinion. The reader should attend to their experience in their drills. It’s worthwhile to not be dogmatic. I can see if dealing with experienced skilled sailors familiar with the behavior of the vessel they’re on some variations maybe appropriate. However, on passage usually sail with people who have limited experience of my boat or with just my wife. I continue to hold the technique proposed by BS will result in the death of the mob on my boat. 
First, recovery over the stern. From experience I know my sugar scoop is at water level or below in a seaway. I know my engine hoist rotates to first be to portside, then off the port quarter, then over the sugar scoop. I know when beam to or nearly beam to the boat heaves up then settles down a few feet to leeward when stopped (by any means) once seas exceed 6’. I know I can put the line from the lifesling through the clip at the bottom of my engine hoist and run it to my powered primary winches and raise hundreds of pounds as can my wife. This requires the winch to be free which it would not be if hoved to. I know by using the rotating engine hoist the mob is kept away from the boat for the entire time they are in the water. I know the technique proposed by BS will not work for my wife and I. But the technique I and others have posted at least has a chance. 
I have strived to be very specific in addressing this problem as the answer must be very specific. I continue to believe for the majority of cruising boats one must look at what’s available on your boat, who is on your boat, how the boat handles and the basic structure of the vessel.
Given that continue to believe most people on boats designed within the last couple of decades will find techniques other than hoving too more appropriate with rare exception.


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

I have noted that nobody has identified how anyone can keep their boat on station to windward under power, and leave the helm to assist with MOB recovery.

I believe my question has been answered.

Thank you.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

boatsurgeon said:


> I have noted that nobody has identified how anyone can keep their boat on station to windward under power, and leave the helm to assist with MOB recovery.
> 
> I believe my question has been answered.
> 
> Thank you.


I will call you out.

You are just blind to the answer.

Indeed you are blind to any answer or opinion that is not your own. As someone alluded, it's time for you to open your shutters and not be afraid to learn better techniques.

Sailing is one of those things that you can keep learning no matter how old you are.

One of my sailing mentors who is 92 just won a Dragon championship against 26 competitors... But his learning ability was shown at the late age of 84 when he started racing a 470!

https://afloat.ie/sail/sailing-clas...ailor-gordon-ingate-an-inspiration-for-us-all


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I will call you out.
> 
> You are just blind to the answer.
> 
> ...


I am not blind.

I am begging anyone to provide the answer.

Enough with the name calling, mud slinging, irrelevant links, and disrespectful banter.

Simple question.

How do you hold the boat on station in heavy weather conditions during MOB recovery with nobody at the helm?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

boatsurgeon said:


> I am not blind.
> 
> I am begging anyone to provide the answer.
> 
> ...


Heaving to isnt station keeping either, the drift rate of a person in the water isnt the same as the drift rate of a hove to sailboat. You are asking the wrong questions.

Heaving to involves surrendering active control of the vessel. Maintaining active control of the vessel (sail or power) may allow you to bring the boat to the person.

Try it some time, dont use a fender that you forgot to tie down before going out in snotty conditions, but make an active atempt to simulate the drift rate of the person. Do it 10 times on the same day, same conditions, try different approaches; active control under power, active control under sail, using the hove to and drift method if you chose. Then you will have an idea of what worked best that day on your boat in those conditions.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

You conveniently skipped the question of how one will ever heave-to alone, with the main sheet 12 feet from the helm. Your experience seems to be on smaller boats. You only insist your own loaded (ie false premise) question be answered. With a lifesling, you circle the victim (or pass upwind and drift down), they attach themselves and there is no station to maintain and the victim never gets close to a spinning prop. Your question was loaded. You are, in fact, blind to the various scenarios. Then again, you've never been in the situation, as you say.

Our boat will heave to, with a reefed genoa and the main slack, but those lines are 12 feet away too. It will not heave to, with our 150 genoa wrapped around the stays. All the while one is screwing with those lines, with the helm on AP, you're sailing away from the victim. I maintain my position. Immediately turn directly into the wind. Stop the damn boat within a short distance from the victim and turn the engine on. Then determine the best course of action, which will differ based upon conditions, point of sail, number of remaining crew, etc. It will be to motor the vast majority of the time. Just like a motor boat would, just like one would if the sails were not raised. 

The fact is, if you lose someone overboard in 10 foot steep seas and 35 kt winds (especially any condition that could knock one's boat down), you're not getting them back aboard alone, no matter what you do. You'll probably never even see them again. Even in a quick stop, you'll be several wave sets away. Gone.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

BS in my replies to you I gave you a series of real world scenarios when hoving too would be impossible in a timely fashion or grossly inappropriate. Others have confirmed these statements and supplemented them with their own. You never addressed them as they inarguably demonstrate the fallacy of your thinking. If you think is not the case please respond to how you believe hoving too is the correct response in those scenarios. Failure to do so shows unequivocally that hoving to is rarely if ever the appropriate response .

Btw when successfully hoving to I would be forced to take my eyes off the MOB for a longer period of time then with a quick stop then engine. It has always required some adjustments to main and jib sheet while watching the sails and glances at the knot meter and water. 

It is quite clear BSs technique is believed to be ineffectual and inappropriate by many sailors for clear and obvious reasons to which he doesn’t address but rather resorts to name calling. Can we move on. 

Every poster has repeated the mantra “don’t fall off the boat “. That implies the use of tethers with the inherent risk you will be strung on your tether over the side off the boat. Some say given the high risk of drowning the victim should quick release and become a mob. Others say you should manipulate to face aft and wait to be hauled in with a spare halyard. Consensus seems to be a quick stop by the helmsman is appropriate to prevent drowning. 
Have others thought about this? What action plan have you decided on?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> .....That implies the use of tethers with the inherent risk you will be strung on your tether over the side off the boat. Some say given the high risk of drowning the victim should quick release and become a mob. Others say you should manipulate to face aft and wait to be hauled in with a spare halyard......


While each deck is different, I think one can position the jackline more toward the center and use short enough tethers to prevent the ability to get over the lifeline. At the least, to prevent reaching the water. Of course,, it's not always possible, but I've never understood those that run a single line the entire length of their side deck. It's just a placebo.

In the cockpit, I tie a line around the base of our table and we 3 ft tether to it. It allows complete freedom around the cockpit and both helms. However, it's a strain to get your head over the rail, let alone your body. That's the way I like it. Of course, it made barfing on my mid-night watch last summer a bit difficult.  First mal de mar in a long time, but conditions were particularly nasty.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

BS I’ll make it easy for you 
1. Boats under double headsails and no main, or genny and no main or main on preventor and headsail on a pole.
2. Boat is hoved too but not close enough to throw a lifesling or other device.
3. Person fell off during an evolution. Tacking, gybing or deploying a large downwind sail (kite,parasailor, code).
4. Boat is motor sailing.
Please address how hoving too is a viable technique.? A quick stop, throw off the sheets (and/or halyards) turn on the engine is. Period. End of discussion. This bird is dead. Of course you hit the mob button and release the MOM first.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Sounds like you’ve put some rational thinking in to it. We have four strong points in the cockpit. Two are at the ends of one of the long seats. We run dyneema line between them pulled tight and clip to that. Allows access to all lines and winches. We have a single wheel with strong points on either side near the sole. Shorter people clip to those. Taller clip to the split backstay just above the hydraulic cyclinder for backstay adjustments.
We do run webbing from bow cleat to stern cleat. I insist if used one always goes up the high side ( usually windward). If working at the mast then clip to the granny bars. If working at the bow then the anchor chain or base of one of the headsail stays.this is true even if going to the low side and it means going around the mast or sneaking under the boom. Of course one uses the shortest tether feasible. Our lines are brought aft. They are under some tension and left clutched. They serve as places to clip as well. Our clips are bigger then most of our ss tubing. Same holds. Use them when appropriate. In short have been taught to think about always clipping to something to the high side and with shortest tether. Importantly don’t limit yourself to the webbing and never use the lifelines. 
Still, sh-t happens. What’s your plan if someone goes over on a tether?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

boatsurgeon said:


> If the wind conditions are such that the foresail can safely be up close-hauled, the boat can be safely hove to with it.
> 
> So the limit is (variation depending on boat) ~ 15 knots for 150%, +/-, 20 knots for a 135%, 25 knots for a 120%, 30 knots for 100%, (hank on or furled) 40 knots for the storm jib.
> 
> ...


You don't get to choose your wind speed/sail configuration in a MOB situation, or at least most people don't. Are you proposing backwinding a 150 in *ANY* case on any boat or must one completely change tactics by your little chart above? You can't have it both ways.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> Sounds like you've put some rational thinking in to it. We have four strong points in the cockpit. Two are at the ends of one of the long seats. We run dyneema line between them pulled tight and clip to that. Allows access to all lines and winches. We have a single wheel with strong points on either side near the sole. Shorter people clip to those. Taller clip to the split backstay just above the hydraulic cyclinder for backstay adjustments.
> We do run webbing from bow cleat to stern cleat. I insist if used one always goes up the high side ( usually windward). If working at the mast then clip to the granny bars. If working at the bow then the anchor chain or base of one of the headsail stays.this is true even if going to the low side and it means going around the mast or sneaking under the boom. Of course one uses the shortest tether feasible. Our lines are brought aft. They are under some tension and left clutched. They serve as places to clip as well. Our clips are bigger then most of our ss tubing. Same holds. Use them when appropriate. In short have been taught to think about always clipping to something to the high side and with shortest tether. Importantly don't limit yourself to the webbing and never use the lifelines.
> Still, sh-t happens. What's your plan if someone goes over on a tether?


The only thing I don't like about strong points is moving between them. Of course, if one carries two tethers, they can often be attached to each, at the same time, to allow for transfer. I segment my jacklines along the length of the boat, which also requires transfer. In some cases, I've left a dedicated tether on the further segment, in others I carry two. If one carries two tether, never attach all the ends to the same harness point, or you could confuse them. I don't love the tethers that have both a long and short tether for a couple of reasons. First, the longer one might allow me to reach the water. Second, it can get confusing which one is releasing, moving, etc. I suppose they are better than going free for a moment.

The tethered crew hanging over the lines is a good question, with various scenarios. Plan A is to attach one of the spare halyards to either their harness or the opposite end of their tether and grind them back aboard. If their head is beneath the water, I think I would have a very hard time cutting them loose, but would understand, if they cut themselves loose. I have an S-cutter in the breast pocket of my pfd for this purpose. It would be a toss up for me, whether the extra time to get their head out of the water or possibly never retrieving the MOB was a worse death sentence. I think I could get the snap shackle from the halyard onto their tether or harness reasonably quickly. Under a minute? Hard to practice.


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## Rmaddy (Feb 8, 2019)

I’m new here. Is there always this much testosterone in the room?


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Its called wind...gusting at times


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

jephotog said:


> I tell my wife to call the Coast Guard and read to them the GPS coordinates.


That's where the DSC distress button comes in! Push the button and everyone knows where you are.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

boatsurgeon said:


> I am not blind.
> 
> I am begging anyone to provide the answer.
> 
> ...


I don't really understand the obsession with "holding station", not that heaving to WILL hold station, you are still drifting!

In my mind, the most important thing is to be maneuverable enough to get a line to the victim. Once the victim is attached to the boat, who cares if you are drifting, since the boat and victim are drifting together! At that point 100% of your effort can be focused on getting the mob out of the water. If you are fortunate, it is a simple matter of getting them to the boarding ladder. If the victim is hypothermic and unable to climb out on their own, things get more difficult, and that's where lifting systems come into play.

This obsession with heaving-to has me baffled. As a coastal sailor I have NEVER had occasion to do such a thing in the 30+ years I have sailing. Yes I understand the concept, but I have always viewed it as a survival technique you would use if you were caught out in a storm in the open ocean, and you just need to ride it out. That's not an option when you are near land or reefs.

I cant think of any other use for heaving-to in my world.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> While each deck is different, I think one can position the jackline more toward the center and use short enough tethers to prevent the ability to get over the lifeline. At the least, to prevent reaching the water. Of course,, it's not always possible, but I've never understood those that run a single line the entire length of their side deck. It's just a placebo.
> 
> In the cockpit, I tie a line around the base of our table and we 3 ft tether to it. It allows complete freedom around the cockpit and both helms. However, it's a strain to get your head over the rail, let alone your body. That's the way I like it. Of course, it made barfing on my mid-night watch last summer a bit difficult.  First mal de mar in a long time, but conditions were particularly nasty.


A technique I have tested, for sailors hanging overboard on a tether, too far to reach, is to slow the boat (slack sheets or tack/heave too), clip a 30- to 40-foot line to the tether, cut it away from the jackline, and let the sailor drift free. This gets him away from the bow wave but still in touch with the boat. At that point you slow the boat, maneuver the line to the preferred location (varies with the boat and the weather) and hoist aboard. BUT, for best ease of use, the tethers need an extra loop for this purpose. A prusik loop can also work. Ideally, you should be able to get to him, clip the line, and cut him free in seconds, not minutes.

Obviously, you need to have the extension line available, with a carabiner on the end. This is something I have always kept in the cockpit, useful for clearing over rides, MOB recovery, and other contingencies when you need a piece of rope, right now, to secure something.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

You can also clip your tether to high side toe rail if work needed in one general area.
A better jackline arrangement should be devised. I dont like them running along the side decks.
By myself..i run 1/2" rope from cabin top winch to mast..then to bow cleat. Have eye bolt with strop in cockpit.

Would be nice to have chicken/granny bars all over...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

It’s one of the down sides of a hard dodger that running a jack line down the center isn’t really feasible. Clipping and unclipping is problematic as well so for present think it safer to clip in the cockpit go up on deck on the high side to wherever you need to be. Then while clipped reclip to an appropriate spot there. Agree it’s important to have two tethers. Would like two 3’ or 4’ (for tall people) rather than the 3’and6’ we have on our tethers. 
Our spare halyards run to two speed winches at the mast. So rather than employ the techniques mentioned above would just clip around the tether of the person hanging over the side after stopping the boat and pull them up out of the water. You have enough mechanical advantage that clipping directly to the person isn’t necessary and the rescuer is not reaching outside the lifelines so at risk to go over themselves. This gets their chest to the height of the top life line if they’re on the 3’ tether. While continuing to be supported by the first halyard take a second halyard and clip it to their harness rings if they can’t clammer over themselves. Use that to get them entirely inboard taking their weight off the first halyard. All my halyards go through clutches so using the same winch is a non issue and would allow the rescuer(s) to remain on the same side of the boat as the rescuee.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

outbound said:


> It's one of the down sides of a hard dodger that running a jack line down the center isn't really feasible....


Yes, and no.

Although the side deck feels dangerous to some, how often does someone fall off, to windward, while moving? Nearly never.

They fall off the bow or are washed out of the cockpit, almost always while distracted by a task. They also fall to leeward.

I'm not at all convinced the centerline is the best location, particularly not on the forward half of the bow. It feels safer, but the physics and history do not support the assertion. People fall downhill. I do believe in ending the jacklines well short of the bow and stern, about 4-5 feet.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

SchockT said:


> I don't really understand the obsession with "holding station", not that heaving to WILL hold station, you are still drifting!
> 
> In my mind, the most important thing is to be maneuverable enough to get a line to the victim. Once the victim is attached to the boat, who cares if you are drifting, since the boat and victim are drifting together! At that point 100% of your effort can be focused on getting the mob out of the water. If you are fortunate, it is a simple matter of getting them to the boarding ladder. If the victim is hypothermic and unable to climb out on their own, things get more difficult, and that's where lifting systems come into play.
> 
> ...


In my opinion, heaving to in a coastal environment isn't without its merrits, especially when you dont have auto pilot and you need to take a leak.

I can see its value during the recovery phase of a MOB as well, although I admit that I have not personally recovered a person from the water with a backwinded jib.

I think its a not a great way to maneuver a boat to an MOB though.

My only real MOB recovery under sail was a bad jibe in my Fireball that ko'd my partner, late 90s. I was driving, he was jib. We were on a port tack, I let go of the main sheet and tiller and grabbed him. Mostly not relevant to big keel boats.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> Yes, and no.
> 
> Although the side deck feels dangerous to some, how often does someone fall off, to windward, while moving? Nearly never.
> 
> ...


Good points. Still, there have been times, when the deck problem is on the leward side or downwind rolling doesn't really provide a high side. In the end, where ever the jackline and tether are run, one should not be able to reach the water, if at all possible.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

My jacklines go inside the shrouds and stop at the inner forestay.

I clip on and walk the high side.
When forrad at the mast I clip onto the shrouds or, beter, the inner forestay.

The idea is that I cant fall overboard.

In the cockpit I have a circle of dyneema loosely around the base of the cockpit table and the wheel. I can clip on at the companionway and move all round the cockpit, again not long enough to fall out.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I think the high risk times are going forward and also when doing nothing.
Going forward you maybe looking around to figure out what’s wrong, stiff and unuse to movement from sitting for a spell, distracted from worry, if carrying tools you may haven’t figured out the best way. etc. 
I’ve had occasion to go floating up when sitting with my legs on either side of the bow but you have the stay above you and you’re clipped so other than getting soaked and needing to hold your breath I don’t think it’s as dangerous as going mob when you are moving.
I think you get placid. Even in sporty conditions it gets to be the new norm so by the last hour of your watch or if you’re a mom and by the third hour since setting out you’re enured to it. Don’t think many of us are at risk of being washed out of the cockpit into the Southern Ocean but still think those brain on autopilot or off times present a risk. Doesn’t matter if you’re snoozing, reading or looking at a screen every 10 or 15 minutes in a empty ocean. Think these times risk is increased or decreased to some degree by the design of the cockpit.
Old boats had very small, deep cockpits. Given drainage was by scuppers the well needed to be small. You got protection from the house, the structure of the cockpit and sometimes weatherclothes. At the helm there was structure behind you and a stern pulpit. New boats have cockpits that drain from the back. There are multiple advantages to this but often at the helm there’s often nothing behind you but the two wires of the lifelines. With the delightful fold up stern platforms there’s truly nothing behind you. 
If you’re at the high side wheel you can’t see the slot. At the low side can’t see what’s coming from windward. It’s nice to go back and forth. Like Minnie’s solution but often that’s not practical and you need to unclip and re-clip. Wonder how people handle this?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I went overboard many years ago when I was going to change sails - back in the days of hank head sails. Boat had motor on moving slowly. Waves were insanely confused, short and high. I was clipped to the lee toe rail aft of the cleat. I had tied the sail bag around the cleat and then the bow dropped into a trough and came up on the next wave. I was thrown into the air. Then the bow went down into the next trough and I was pulled down by the harness but landed over the lifelines and in the water. YIKES.

I was being pulled through the water... but the rail was rather close to the water and the tether was over the life lines and then down to my harness. I was never completely submerged because the harness length and it going over the live lines. I was able to grab a stanchion base and throw my leg on to the deck, hook another stanchion and squeeze myself under the lower life line. I had to re attach the tether... and then get back to the cockpit... get the wet gear off. It was Fall! Scary but saved by the harness. Should have hooked a tether to the windward side and probably couldn't have been thrown overboard. Two points of attachment!


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I've had a few women on-board for long passages... and, generally, I know its politically incorrect to like women nowadays... but they go freaking beresk when they see a dolphin or whale! All thoughts of safety fly out the window as they race up to the pointy end and jump up and down and cooo and giggle at obese grey blobs.

So theres a hard a fast rule: Never go forward to see a dolphin unless someone else is on deck... and you must be be clipped on. (The other rules are: Log position of critter, who saw it first, type of critter and have we seen that species before... also needs to be found in the Whale and Dolphin identification book, dated and location).

It mystifies me how after passages of thousands of miles Dolphins get more lovin than the hard working skipper  It sux!


Mark


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

capta said:


> You don't get to choose your wind speed/sail configuration in a MOB situation, or at least most people don't. Are you proposing backwinding a 150 in *ANY* case on any boat or must one completely change tactics by your little chart above? You can't have it both ways.


Every sailor should know that one usually carries more sail in light conditions and less sail in heavier conditions when close-hauled.

When a sailor claims that one should be able to heave to with whatever sail they can close-haul with, other sailors should understand what this means.

I can't explain why you don't seem to understand.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Problem is we do understand and have found hoving to an inadequate technique for the vast majority of mob recovery. Please address post #98 and the myriad other posts that clearly explain why this is. Until you do so it appears you have comprehension issues.


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

SchockT said:


> I don't really understand the obsession with "holding station", not that heaving to WILL hold station, you are still drifting!


I don't believe there has been any "obsession" posted.

If you mean that you don't understand why some believe holding station is important during MOB recovery, my answer is so that it makes it faster and easier to retrieve the MOB with less risk of injury or death. Pretty important stuff.

Heaving to does "hold station" to a far far greater degree than leaving the helm not hove to.

I don't believe anyone suggested the boat does not drift while hove to. On the contrary, I and others have indicated so numerous times.

Drifting slightly when holding station is not detrimental to MOB recovery, especially when one considers all of the other benefits of being hove to versus not.



> In my mind, the most important thing is to be maneuverable enough to get a line to the victim.


I believe all of the elements of the MOB procedure are critically important.

Failing to successfully execute any one, could result in total failure, MOB loss, loss of life, or injury, that could have been avoided.

The first and very important element is to yell "Man Overboard" so that everyone aboard is alerted and the procedure can be executed from the rote memory gained by practice.



> Once the victim is attached to the boat, who cares if you are drifting, since the boat and victim are drifting together!


Most sailors with experience in open water rough conditions know this could not be further from the truth.

The boat and anything near it can be completely out of sync with respect to wave action.

This is why one cannot go near the stern.

The transom can come down, while the MOB is coming up, and split their head open like a water melon.

Also drift due to wind or water, can vary between boat and MOB depending on hydrodynamic drag related to each.

If you are the MOB, you will definitely care if the vessel is not held on station / hove to, and you suddenly find yourself drifting down wind at any speed. You will have to make the choice of letting go of the life sling, or wriggling out of it if you can, so as not to drown.



> At that point 100% of your effort can be focused on getting the mob out of the water.


I disagree.

If the boat is not hove to, someone has to remain at the helm to avoid drowning the MOB by dragging them through the water.

If there is only one other person aboard or who is not incapacitated, 0% of the crew is available to assist the MOB, if that person must hold the boat on station to avoid killing the MOB.

If that person does leave the helm and the boat is pitching and rolling because it is not hove to, now some (perhaps most) of their effort has to be expended to keep balance and stay on the boat themselves.

If the boat is drifting rapidly (because it is not hove to), now a lot of their effort has to be expended to drag the MOB to the gate and hoisting gear, or just hold them to the boat.

Do they have enough balance and strength left to retrieve the MOB successfully?

If the boat was hove to, they would have to expend less effort to fight these elements, and could expend more effort on MOB recovery.



> If you are fortunate, it is a simple matter of getting them to the boarding ladder.


As I stated previously. However the chances of being this fortunate in anything but warm fair weather, can be slim, and diminishing with conditions.

Do you base your procedure on retrieving MOBs in fair weather only, or any conditions likely to be encountered?

We do the latter.

We do not practice a fairweather MOB only procedure, but rather a procedure likely to be successful in any condition we may find ourselves in.

I don't want to lose my crew because the wind is over X knots or waves are over Y height. I believe it is good to be able to return all crew to port every time, regardless of conditions. I never want to face a grieving family because a member of my crew was lost needlessly. Please learn to heave to and practice it.



> If the victim is hypothermic and unable to climb out on their own, things get more difficult, and that's where lifting systems come into play.


It is not necessary that the MOB be hypothermic before they cannot affectively assist their own recovery.

It could just be that they are cold, and their extremity motor ability is lost. This happens long, long before hypothermia set in. Other reasons they may not be able to assist effectively is due to injury, or clothing filled with water, as previously stated.



> This obsession with heaving-to has me baffled.


Understanding the importance of heaving to is not an "obsession". If you understood the importance, you would not be baffled.



> As a coastal sailor I have NEVER had occasion to do such a thing in the 30+ years I have sailing.


What can I say?

Most learn the importance and benefits of heaving to very early in the development of their most basic sailing knowledge and skill development.

Perhaps you need a basic sailing refresher course?

I suggest using the internet to look up information about heaving to. Some will talk about its importance (Skip Novac for example) as a heavy weather survival tactic. Others will talk about it's importance to make a cup of tea, go take a nap, or await better weather to enter a port or reef cut.



> Yes I understand the concept, but I have always viewed it as a survival technique you would use if you were caught out in a storm in the open ocean, and you just need to ride it out. I cant think of any other use for heaving-to in my world.


This is what causes me to disbelieve you have the sailing experience claimed.

Every experienced sailor should be able to think of lots of reasons for heaving to.

Those who actually do understand the concept know that heaving to is very effective to slow and calm the boat to make any of the following common procedures aboard easier and more successful:

1. Execute a MOB recovery.
2. Prepare a meal.
3. Fetch a beverage.
4. Use the head.
5. Effect repairs.
6. Put in a reef.
7. Attend to any vessel needs requiring or more easily executed in calm.
8. Take a rest.
9. Render first aid.
10. Avoid entering a poor weather system.
11. Avoid entering an unknown port or anchorage in darkness.
12. Wait for the start of the next race.
13. etc. etc. etc.



> I cant think of any other use for heaving-to in my world.


This is why I find it very difficult to believe you actually do understand the concept or have the degree of sailing experience you claim.

Every sailor should understand the benefits of, and conditions where, heaving to is useful.

It is a basic skill like tacking and gybing, that every sailor should be able to execute instantly, when ever to do so would serve them.



> That's not an option when you are near land or reefs.


Any sailing maneuver that cannot be executed safely without running aground is not an option if they will run aground, unless the maneuver is to intentionally run aground (which can be a valid tactic in very unusual circumstances, such as to save a vessel from certain sinking).

Fortunately, I have never had to do this, but based on my knowledge, skill, and experience, I can think of where even this tactic could be useful.

Actually one can heave to near land or reefs, and possibly should, if the leeward drift will be away.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Please address the situations of post #98.

Please understand most cruising is not done hard on the wind. Please understand once hove to maneuverability is lost.

Please realize multiple posters have attempted to use your technique (and they know how to hove to btw) and have found it unsuitable.

Please realize the tread is to no longer use hoving to as a storm technique but only for comfort in mild to moderate conditions. 

I don’t understand why you’re having difficulties in accepting this and continue to not address the specific situations where hoving too is inappropriate nor the failures of the technique due to absence of maneuverability. You have yet to do anything but obfuscate.


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

outbound said:


> Problem is we do understand and have found hoving to an inadequate technique for the vast majority of mob recovery. Please address post #98 and the myriad other posts that clearly explain why this is. Until you do so it appears you have comprehension issues.


I actually am having difficulty comprehending your posts as they seem disjointed and filled with poor grammar. I understand this is highly likely if your first language is other than English, and am not faulting you for it. I am just explaining why comprehension of your posts may be difficult for others.

Actually many here do not seem to have even basic knowledge of how to, or when to, heave to. It seems to me that at least some are misrepresenting their actual knowledge and skill level, as I believe every experienced sailor should know this.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

boatsurgeon said:


> Also drift due to wind or water, can vary between boat and MOB depending on hydrodynamic drag related to each...
> 
> Fortunately, I have never had to do this


Regarding the first part. When under power and head to wind, you can station keep off a person in the water. The boats drift rate will naturally be faster than the immersed person therefore, by applying throttle against the wind, you can match the speed of the MOB, and use your rudder to vector the thrust off your engine to maintain control.

Your immersed person will drift directly down wind.

When hove to, many of the sailboats that I am familiar with will slice arcs through the water: forward and down wind, with a resultant vector somewhere other than directly down wind.

So not only is the hove to boat moving at a different speed than the person in the water, but it is going in a different direction as well.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

BS I was a professor at Boston University and had a teaching appointment at Harvard. I was born in Manhattan nyc. I post while doing other activities and rarely screen my posts. Seems others have no comprehension issues as this is a new complaint. 
Your ability to make presumptions is astounding. English is my first language although I was schooled in French and Latin I’m not conversant in them.

I well may have more hours and days hoved to in the last few years than you have had in your lifetime.

Last time coming back to Newport from the Caribbean we lost our window. Chris told us to divert and run nearly due west. Nearly all of the eastern seaboard was involved with not gale force but storm force winds. The Gulf Stream around the northeast was seeing winds to 60 kts. from the north. We followed Chris’s direction and ended up just north of the Bahamas. The frontal system didn’t break so we hove to. One could see repetitive thunderstorms over the Bahamas. Occasionally one would drift near us. However the major waves came from the huge weather system sitting off the US coast. We sat for a little over 7 days hove to. We remained in light air <10 kts. but occasionally winds from the thunderstorms would come through. With the thunderstorms wind waves on top of the swell would come through. They would knock the bow off so you needed to hove to again. Or a big wave from the distant storm would require you to sail a bit then re hove to. This occurred times a watch. Reality is unlike my prior tayana or various cape dories or even my psc high aspect bulbed fin keeled boats require adjustments to remain hoved to. As previously noted I frequently hove to my prior boats. I have found that the fastnet reports have changed my thinking about hoving to as a storm technique. I was caught in a storm while in the gulf of Maine on a Hinckley pilot. There’s no question in my mind that drogues or even warps are preferable to hoving to in storm conditions from that experience. That boat was easy to hove to. 

I’ve reread read post 98. Please tell me what you don’t understand and I’ll endeavor to help you through it. Otherwise please address the salient features. Seems you’re stuck in 30 year old thinking and stuck on one imaginary scenario. Unfortunately that’s an alternative reality for most of us. Then thinking of mob the KISS principal should enter in to it. The complexities of raising sail in order to be able to hove to or come out of a hoved to situation in order to approach closer to the mob has yet to be addressed by you. 

Again please go through the numbers and address the scenarios delineated in post 98.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Fence Post, meet BS.
BS, may you two live happily ever after


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## boatsurgeon (Dec 6, 2018)

OK, I certainly don't expect any naysayers in this thread to publicly admit the error in their MOB procedures.

For any possible lurkers, I hope you take something away from all of this.

Please note the number of posters who described dousing sails and motoring upwind to pick up the MOB.

I absolutely concur that this may work in fairweather conditions if the water is warm and the MOB is in a swimsuit, or there is sufficient crew aboard that know how to haul the MOB back aboard.

However, on a short-handed boat, in moderate to heavy conditions, cold water, injured MOB, or wearing cold weather clothing and foulies, this MOB plan is doomed for failure.

Note how many of these posters confirmed this, predicting in advance that in anything worse than fairweather, the MOB is likely to be a goner.

When asked the very simple question, "How will you keep the boat from drifting away to leave the helm to assist MOB recovery?", not one had a valid answer.

How can I know the answer to this and others not?

I can only communicate what I know, what we do on our boat, and what I recommend others do.

The answer is simple.

1. Leave the sails up.

2. Loop around the MOB with the life sling to assure they can reach it.

3. Heave to, to stop the boat, make it stable, and enable the helmsperson to assist with MOB recovery.

There is absolutely no point having some "captain" on a short-handed vessel, standing at the helm playing the wheel and throttle to hold the boat beside the MOB in moderate to heavy conditions, barking orders to hoist the MOB aboard, if there is nobody else aboard capable of doing so.

The captain may have to assist or solely perform the MOB recovery, away from the helm, and the only way to do it short-handed, safely, in moderate to heavy conditions is to heave to.

Based on our various MOB drills, attempting to pick up a MOB in moderate to heavy conditions short-handed, by dousing sails and motoring up, is not likely to work, as the others have already accurately predicted.

I believe our MOB procedure "heaving to" will work in any conditions likely to be encountered. As mentioned, we have executed the procedure with real people in conditions up to 12 knots and 1 metre waves. We have simulated it with MOB drills in much worse. It works.

Remember you heard it here from Boat Surgeon.

Try it out for yourself.

When you see how well it works, practice it.

Your crew's life may count on it.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Please respond to post 98. None of your posts address those common scenarios.
Please realize even with no main up or a headsail out on a pole stopping the boat, throwing off sheets if necessary and turning on the engine takes seconds. In all of them hoving too would take minutes and in some quite a few minutes.
Most cruisers spend less than ~20% of their time hard on the wind where flicking the helm over is all that need be done.
In fact would venture to say they spend more time motor sailing. Tell me how do you hove to with no main or just the main up. 

It’s becoming increasingly obvious your intransigence has no substance to justify it. I will continue to point out that your universal answer is not reality based because IT WILL KILL people in any of the scenarios of post 98 as well as making bringing the mob close enough for recovery impossible. 


Address the issue of close approach and scenarios of post 98. Repeating the same diatribe already shown to be inappropriate in the majority of situations adds nothing to this discussion.

I’ll add another where hoving to isn’t the answer. Going down wind at hull speed or surfing. Some one falls off. You hove to. They are now a significant distance to windward. How do you get to them?

In short anyone with a modicum of intelligence can conjure up a host of situations where hoving to would not be helpful and a very few scenarios where it might be helpful for a very brief time. It seems your practice runs only occur at one point of sail with both jib and main up, no poles and no preventers. Even when my current and prior boats had both an unencumbered jib and main up if on a reach or run it took a change in course then a fair bit of trimming before you could hove to. Given most sailors avoid beats not being on a hard beat is common.
It’s striking you have yet to address post 98 nor the maneuverability issue. Please do so in your next post. Add in what to do when the mob event occurs while going rapidly down wind. Explain how motoring to them is slower then tacking to them. Explain why a boat can’t power with the sails up and sheets off. Explain why you can’t roll up a jib while powering back to them. Explain why you can’t free the main halyard. 
Drills are good as the first steps should always be the same
Mob button, mom released, stop the boat. But then hopefully you have a working flexible brain and will do whatever effects a recovery as rapidly as possible. As a couple who have practiced the various techniques motoring to the mob is the technique most appropriate most often. For the reasons clearly stated by me and others it’s rarely hoving too. This year we’ve been sailing in winds averaging high teens to low twenties. Other then when on a beat hoving too puts us to far away from a mob as to throw them a life sling. Best we can do is a tight circle under power while dragging it where it gets right to them as shown on the container. 

BS it is what it is. G-d bless your little heart and feel free to hold to your position but realize you have only one arrow in your quiver and there are a lot of soldiers out there.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

BTW a validated technique in heavy conditions is motoring. We’ve used it for squalls and the brief times you need to pass through compression zones. Works nice. Rolling up a jib and/or freeing the main halyard takes seconds and you don’t need any help. Easy to do by yourself so you don’t need to wake anybody up. Main halyard is on a powered winch so a snap to put it back up. The main is left at the appropriate size for the general prevailing winds so you’re right back to where you started.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Note to all. As this thread is about safety I will step in with the Moderators hat:

If one person has an opinion and many others have a different opinion the minority opinion holder needs to check if theirs is correct. If its a matter of safety you need to double.

I am time poor for a little while, after which I will do some research on valid MOB methods.

At this stage it would be nice assist the forum with your ideas BACKED UP with a link to previously formalised thoughts somewhere on the net 

Please, if you have the minority dissenting opinion, or the majority, please do not make statements like this:



> Actually many here do not seem to have even basic knowledge of how to, or when to, heave to. It seems to me that at least some are misrepresenting their actual knowledge and skill level, as I believe every experienced sailor should know this.


Finally, may I recommend those wishing to learn from this thread to be extremely careful whose advice they take. 

Mark
PS Don't fall overboard!!!!


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

As per my previous post to discuss valid, and only valid, techniques linked to other formalised thoughts on the net, I offer up US Sailing Orgs procedure

https://www.ussailing.org/news/man-overboard-recovery-procedure/



> Immediately turn the boat into the wind, if appropriate for your boat and conditions, then tack, and stop/slow the boat. This is the first stage of the "Quick Stop" method that revolutionized sailing's "science" of man overboard a few decades ago.
> .....
> Approach carefully and at a controllable speed. The close reach is by far and away the safest point of sail to make the approach because of the ease at which speed can be increased or decreased without making course changes.


It also recommends getting rid of the Jib, and motor on.

Its an interesting read though a bit esoteric at times.

Whats your thoughts and do you have a better clearer bit of writing?

Mark


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Well, who would have thought my post would wind up in such a bun fight! I could do without some of the arrogance and vitriol, but hey, it's the internet, right?

Boatsurgeon, you come across as arrogant and condescending. Perhaps if you learned to check that a bit your opinions might be better received. Please keep in mind that not everybody does the same kind of sailing, and everybody is drawing from a different experience base.

You question my sailing ability because I don't heave-to. Should I question your sailing ability because you have to heave-to every time you have to take a leak or grab a snack? 

I have no doubt that you have far more blue water experience that I do, since I have none. I am a coastal sailor. I have been racing sailboats of many sizes fully crewed, short handed and single handed for over 30 years. I have only been cruising for the last 15 years. As I said, in all that time we have never needed to heave to. Not to go pee, not to wait for the next race, not to take a nap! When you race you don't stop! You do whatever you need to do while under way. We take naps while off shift. On my boat if I needed to leave the helm briefly I would simply lash the tiller, (although the new boat has autohelm...looking forward to that luxury!)
We dealt with injuries while under way, we did repairs under way, I have even gone aloft while under way with the spinnaker up. When we did mob drills we dropped the sails and used the engine.

Never hove-to. Not once. Never even saw anyone else do so. 

I probably should give it a try sometime, just to see how the boat behaves. Maybe one day I will find a use for the maneuver, but up until now I have got by just fine without it.



Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Here is the Royal Yachting Association page.

-From what I can tell, it recomends using the engine if one is fitted.
-For both an under power and sailing recovery it recomends furling the headsail. Looks like my cat rig isnt so bad after all.
-For under sail approach it recomends filling and spilling the main to control speed
-it recomends bringing the boat to the person under control
-from what I can tell it only mentions backwinding the jib to help scrub speed when the guy initially goes overboard

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/cruising-tips/boat-handling-sail/Pages/man-overboard.aspx


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Would mention we keep an air horn in the cockpit pocket. Crew is instructed to let loose a blast to get everyone up to help. Not only for this but for any emergency (flooding, fire etc.).


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

^^^ Possibly of interest, commercial vessels of all sizes indicate Man Overboard with 3 long blasts on the horn/whistle.

https://www.marineinsight.com/marine-safety/different-types-of-alarms-on-ship/


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/2005_Crew_Overboard_Symposium.pdf

This Report has been out there for awhile and so some of the currently available devices may not be mentioned.

I've practiced all of the mentioned methods. I have found that I've had the most success with the Deep Beam reach ( almost broad) as opposed to the figure 8 . I've done this under sail as I was working for a sailing school. In a real event, I would start the engine at the same time that I fell off to ensure that I could get back upwind, and then douse the headsail on my approach.

But there are so many variables it's always going to be situational. The engine will, however always be involved IMHO.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Yep, for me the engine is always going to be on because I have an 8 ton boat with a 57hp engine whereas one of my friends has an 18hp on a 20 ton boat.
Hitting the power on my boat in any weather and something will happen.

So, yes, we really need to know our own boats


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

I think a prudent skipper should have an alternate plan in case of engine failure, I've heard that it does happen.


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## schessor (Mar 19, 2012)

*Links to MOB videos and articles*

I have a collection of links to useful MOB videos and articles but I of don't have enough posts on SailNet to be allowed to post them; I tried to attach a notepad text file with them but that isn't allowed. Is there another way to share them other than getting my post count up to the minimum?

Most of them are from uksailmakers and yachtingmonthly dot com.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

*Re: Links to MOB videos and articles*



schessor said:


> I have a collection of links to useful MOB videos and articles but I of don't have enough posts on SailNet to be allowed to post them; I tried to attach a notepad text file with them but that isn't allowed. Is there another way to share them other than getting my post count up to the minimum?
> 
> Most of them are from uksailmakers and yachtingmonthly dot com.


Can you just put the links in a post and I will edit your oist:wink so the links work. ?

If that doesn't work email me 3 beers and I won't care about nuthin


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## schessor (Mar 19, 2012)

List of MOB articles

http://www.uksailmakers.com/news/2019/2/15/chilling-man-overboard-video-and-lessons-learned
http://www.uksailmakers.com/quick-stop-with-spinnaker
http://www.uksailmakers.com/quick-stop-with-spinnaker-2
http://www.uksailmakers.com/quick-stop-upwind
http://www.uksailmakers.com/mob-recovery
https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/mob-myths-busted-part-1-62802
https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/mob-myths-busted-part-2-62806
https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/mob-myths-busted-part-3-62809
https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/mob-myths-busted-part-4-62811
https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/mob-myths-busted-part-5-62815
https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/mob-myths-busted-part-6-62821
https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/mob-myths-busted-part-7-62824
https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/stay-deck-avoid-mob-51411
https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/how-to-make-sure-youre-not-an-mob-31066
https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/mob-lifesaving-lessons-learned-at-sea-32278
https://www.soundingsonline.com/voices/two-ways-mob
http://moblifesavers.com/
https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/how-an-8st-crew-can-recover-a-20st-mob-31075
https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2018/11/26/man-overboard-isnt-drill


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

schessor said:


> When I try to enter them using just text or "insert link" I get:
> 
> The following errors occurred with your submission:
> 
> ...


You can thank spammers for all the security!

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Thanks @schessor

Thank you for this excellent list and the effort getting it to me so everyone can have it. Really excellent!

 

Mark


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## donradclife (May 19, 2007)

There will be a US Sailing report on the MOB fatality in Monterey. There may be some similarities to the chicago-mac fatality last summer. Rumor has it that both fatalities inflatables failed to inflate or only partially inflated. The first victm was gone in 6.5 minutes in 70 degree water, while the latest was gone in under 5 minutes in 55 degree water. Sobering information, which makes me want to test my inflatable harnesses again.

BTW, I sailed RTW on a boat which would NOT heave to--the bow would fall off unless the jib was FULLY furled. My first response to a MOB would be to come head to wind, furl the jib and turn on the engine. I am fully familiar with heaving to, as that's how I spent my time between races on dinghies, but with modern performance cruisers you are better off furling the jib and stalling the main.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

So I read all of the sites Schessor provided. I read all the posts. I've been sailing all my life (I'm 70 now) and have had some experience handling boats. I'd like to share some thoughts:

https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sail...d-part-1-62802. EDIT: my paste of his site doens't work. Go to Post 138 to get to the link. Sorry!

The yachingworld site is excellent. In Part 1 is gives the big tip: All MOB events are unique and no one response fits every case. Flexibility is key.

https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sail...d-part-2-62806

yachtingworld Part 2 answers the "heave to" question. It is also addressed later in the series. Heaving to can be a useful tool, bt is not appropriate in all cases. The boat still moves, but with limited control. Hard to come back to the MOB. With this in mind, my first option is to stop the boat, furl or drop the jib, and start the engine. (This happens after the MOB button is pushed, and held, on the plotter and assigning someone to point at, and monitor, the MOB)

Personal experience:

I do a lot of crabbing, and often have to come up to floats in the afternoon when there is a lot (20+ knots) of wind. I can come up to the floats when under power pretty easily.

Yes, I've pulled people out of the water in calm conditions. It's not easy. Well, in all honesty, sometimes it has been easy in small boats. But not so much on larger boats with higher freeboards. My typical sailing venue is cold-water, I tell everyone on board that if they go overboard it's a life or death problem. I spend a lot of time and effort on keeping everyone on the boat! God help us all if it happens under rough conditions. Yes, I will plan, practice, and give it my best effort if someone goes MOB, but I pray it dosen't happen. Like I said, Stay on Board.

donradcliff (Hi, Don) points out that we lost a sailor in Monterey last week. This is a serious problem. It's been helpful to me to think it though while reading the various posts. We'll be doing some drills soon.


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