# 1972 tartan 30



## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

I'm going to look at a t30 that an older gentleman is selling cuz he is done sailing. The boat looked real nice just doing a walk by. If it turns out to be solid would this be a good buy for 10k. Just worried about the age and getting rid of it 5 or so years down the , road. He has a survey from 2010, should I still get another?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Tartan 30s are my favorite 30 foot boat from that era on all counts. If the boat is in good shape 10 k is a good price. But that is a big if for a 40 year old boat. You need to get your own independent survey since only the PO knows what his instructions to the surveyor was. And there can be issues that would cost more to repair than the boat is worth.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Yes, you should get another survey done by your own marine surveyor. I like the Tartan 30s, too. They are great boats. Look carefully for wet bulkheads from leaking down the chainplates.


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

The 30 is a solid boat. There were 2 versions, standard and competition with taller rig and deeper keel. Nice feature is the engine in the middle of the cabin which is easy to work on.

Known areas to look out for: wet decks which are very common, delamination under genoa track, keel step.

These boats are very popular on Lake Erie. Several have been restored to like new condition at some expense. If this boat is well maintained it's a buy. If it needs a lot of work you might look elsewhere unless you have fiberglass and mechanical skills.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Also the T30's were initially powered with the Atomic 4 gas engine. Many are still running and viable. Even though I am comfortable with the A4 gas engine I would expect to pay less for a boat powered by one rather than a diesel.
The engine access is amazing, whatever it is powered by.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I love sailing on a friend's Yankee 30, which is in a lot of ways the sister ship to the Tartan 30 (same designer, similar designs). I bet the Tartan 30 is just as nice.

It's impossible to guess what a boat is worth just knowing the make/model/year and that the exterior looks nice. A survey will help you identify safety issues. You'll need to do your own evaluation on the sail condition.

A nice Tartan 30 hull with shot sails, original standing rigging, rotting running rigging, non-functioning instruments and old cushions is worth approximately $0. A Tartan 30 with a 5 year old Yanmar or Beta marine diesel, brand new sails (main, working jib, genoa, spinnaker), recent standing and running rigging, new cushions, a dinghy, modern electronics, lots of safety gear might be worth $25k (or maybe even $30k) in the right area. This boat is very likely somewhere in the middle, but none of us can guess where it would be on that spectrum.


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## juggleandhope (Jun 4, 2012)

Two decent-to-good examples were on market for around 5K each, for a while, in NYC last summer.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Here is the boat ad. 1972 30ft TARTAN SAILBOAT Not sure if its just that he is really old, or been drinking plus my cell phone was cutting out the whole time he was talking. I hardly heard a word he said. When I asked him about wet decks he was explaining something about having a marina drill holes and filling it with something. Said he had that dont a few times and they told him he was good. Not sure what that is all about cuz I could hardly hear him and am inexperienced in boating for the most part. I'm sure someone here could fill me in as to what he may have been talking about?


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

No interior photos - that is a bad sign. Also he states that the interior "needs some improvement"...

Drill and fill is a cheap and incorrect way to remove wet core from a deck and stiffen it. The method is o.k. for stanchion or deck fitting repairs, but not for large area. Holes are drilled in the surface. A bent nail or other metal object bent at a 90 degree angle is put in the hole and spun, to break down the wet core and open up a void to be filled. The smashed wet material is then vacumned out the hole, or not in some cases. Acetone may be poured into the holes to remove water. Then epoxy is injected into the void where the core was. It leaves a telltale pattern of symmetrical Swiss cheese holes on the surface, even if painted, unless the area was carefully refinished, in which case, they might as well have used the correct method.

The proper way is to cut out panels, chisel out core, reinstall core material, and cover or re-glass, then sand, finish and paint. Read Don Casey's material in the Boat/US library or in one of his books.

You should send your questions in writing to the seller, to be answered in writing, so no more Mr. Mumbles. Don't deal with anyone who doesn't use e-mail.

I suspect you can do better for that asking price. As an example, here is a '74 Tartan 30 Tall Rig with a diesel in Bath, NC, on eBay for $1,500. Needs a little work. People are giving away beaters nowadays.

There is a nice looking Pearson Flyer '30 with an working inboard diesel on Craigslist in Virginia for $4,000. The guy can't seem to sell it. Three years ago it would have been over $10K.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

As was written a 40 year old boat better be near spotless for 10K, there are too many out there. If you need to work on the interior you might as well shop around...I bet you will find a boat in the 5-7K range 10 years newer with a diesel and needing the same amount of work.

Heck in this market, if you like this boat offer 7K and be ready to walk away. If the owner is smart he will consider it.

Just my $.02


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

20 HP Beta.. I'd guess it was re-powered.. from A4 gas in that era


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Also mentioned something about a head liner and something about the sink. Said the cork flooring needed to be replaced. Lots of great boats out there but I am stuck with a loan and have to buy in MI. Pretty good buyers market now ha?


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

It's none of my business, but try to avoid taking out a loan. It sounds like you are young and building up a lot of debt on recreational/luxury items is a recipe for pain later on.

You can get a (small) raceable boat that you can overnight on for less than the down payment on a $10k boat loan. Something like a Santana 20.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

41 years young. Just will never have the cash up front, and could afford the 3 year loan at $150/mo. no problem. The only debt I have is my mortgage. Nothing else whatsoever. Been down that route as a youngster and paid it all off. Tired of looking at boat adds for 5 years now and my job (construction) is alot more steady now. No better time to pull the trigger. Plus the wife has a great job and she would not let the boat go. I had a hunte 18 for several years and would like to get something a tad larger. I have considered the j24 and s2 and cats etc. 27's and 28's.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Without debating the wisdom of a loan, I advise you to visually inspect the boat yourself, then get a survey (Do not trust the old survey), and then if the boat is deemed sound, offer him considerably less than his asking price.

The boat market is still in the toilet. I doubt this boat is worth the full asking price.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Thanks for helping me so far with this decision. I asked the seller a few questions and this is what I got back.... "Yes the deck has been filled, the chain plates do not leak and have been elongated. Interior needs mainly cosmetic; needs water system for the galley and head, minor wood work. Fuel tank has been relaced but needs covering for a small cabinet for additional storage.Cork flooring needs replacing. We don't know the age of the Beta 20hp, 3 cylinder diesel engine. We don't know if the standing rigging is original but it is fully functional. We have sailed the boat yearly without any concerns. Always been a fresh water boat." What do you all think He is asking 11500. I figure if all pans out I will offer 9k? Thanks again for your help.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Ya know, I'm ok with everything except that the deck has been "drilled 'n filled".

I hate that method. It makes it harder to go back and do it right. The only way to know if the deck is solid, is to go to the boat and push on it, walk on it, tap on it with a small, plastic mallet.

You're getting a loan for a substantial amount. This practically demands a survey.

In my case, I bought a very sound Pearson 30 for $4000, cash-in-hand so I did my own survey and took a chance because it was money I could afford to part with.

Are there any other ads that you have your eye on? You mentioned a Pearson 30. They are fantastic boats, I put them right up there with the T30.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Actually I am looking at 1978 Pearson Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com and 1977 C&C 29 MK-I Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Both of those are really nice boats. Too bad the Pearson ad has the decks all covered. Surely you want to see the cockpit and deck, and make sure it's not all screwed up.

Both of those are well-built, quality names that will perform well and be comfortable. They won't have the awesome engine access that the Tartan 30 has, but the Pearson's engine access is still decent.

You've made good choices, but there's no way to know if they're the asking price until you actually visit the vessel and poke around. To be perfectly honest, you really shouldn't just pay the asking price in this market, unless the boat is perfect, and the price is already very low.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I would reiterate much of what was said about: 
-Get your own survey
-The description of the deck repair makes me nervous since this is usually a sign of an owner trying to get by rather than do things right. 
-negotiating the price well down from the asking price should be possible. Given the questionable information and lack of detailed information I would suggest starting at $8,650 and go from there. 
-You can't tell a thing about a boat without going aboard and checking it out carefully. If you do not feel competitent to do your own review, many surveyors will do an informal 'first look' with an oral report for very cheaply. Its not a substitute for a survey, but it should give you enough information to make an offer or decide to waive off. 

I disagree with the recommendations to not take out a loan. You know your own finances better than we do. I have generally had loans on the boats that I have bought and been religious about paying them off as fast as possible. 

I also disagree with the relative merits of the C&C 30, Pearson 30 and Tartan 30. While the Peason 30 is certainly a very nice boat in most regards, and the C&C 30 is a small step down in sailing ability and ease of handling and a small step up in build quality from the Pearson, having looked at all three side by side, maintenance, equipage, and condition being equal, I believe that the Tartan 30 is a superior boat on all counts.

Jeff


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Sounded like the deck work was minor I think he only drilled two holes. Find out sat.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

So found out that about 5-7' foot of the deck on starboard side has been drilled and filled on the tartan 30. I guess that should probably be a deal breaker, no?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

No. Seriously, you will always find deal breakers in boats that old. Just be sure they are things that YOU know how to fix. Like if your an engine mechanic; look for a bad engine...


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Well, dont know much about fixing the deck on a sailboat. I am a skill tradsman specializing in sheet metal, but am not a bad carpender but again, I dont know squat about chopping out a piece of deck without ruining anything else. Then glassing it back in. Some simple instruction may get me buy but I am not looking for a project boat. Is it worth it to grab and sail for a few years with the thoughts of maybe fixing it or just selling it, if I could grab it for $7500 or should I just forget this one and move on. He was mentioning something about having some 1/4" halyards of some new material.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

In your budget I think you'll be able to find a better boat.

If you don't want a project I'd keep your eyes more on the 25-27' length range than the 30' length range. They are smaller, but they are still comfortable cruising sizes (I did a 12 day trip with my wife last year on a Catalina 25 that is smaller than any of the boats listed below). The 25-27' boats will use outboard engines, have simpler electrical and plumbing systems, and overall have less to turn into a project. You'll also likely find a boat in better condition in your price range than you will for 30' boats.

Like this:
1974 Yankee 26 Sailboat

I don't love outboards on inboard boats, but I do love the Yankee 30 and the Yankee 26 is probably similar (both were designed by S&S, just like the Tartan 30).

This has potential and might be cheap enough for you to skip a loan:
C&C 25 Sailboat Price Reduced

Also interesting:
28 Columbia sailboat - Clinton River

I like inboard engines, but outboards are great when you are on a budget.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

I could do five cash but am having a hard time finding anything in the 15k range that I am looking at. Got to be 28-24 in decent shape. I dont mind doing some work but 5-7 foot of deck seems more like a project than a little work.


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## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

deniseO30 said:


> No. Seriously, you will always find deal breakers in boats that old. Just be sure they are things that YOU know how to fix. Like if your an engine mechanic; look for a bad engine...


+1

Let the surveyor tell you if the job was done correctly or not. And on another note, most boats of that vintage will have some moisture issues, at least it was addressed on this boat. You may be starting from scratch on any other boat.

I would much rather have an inboard diesel than ANY outboard and it sounds like it was a recent re-power with a known, reliable make.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Here is why I like outboards:
1) They are cheap (and easy) to replace when something goes wrong. A brand new one is about $2000 to $2500, used ones are easily under $1000.
2) They easily pull out of the water on most boats, reducing drag and improving sailing qualities. This matters a lot, and folding props to get similar performance on an inboard are expensive.
3) They take up no space inside the boat, giving you more storage. This matters a lot on a 25-28' boat, less as you get larger.
4) They are easier to work on than most inboards, but this depends heavily on the boat's layout.

I prefer inboards for these reasons:
1) Better fuel economy
2) Quieter/lower tone is less annoying
3) Generally last longer
4) Don't come out of the water in big waves. This becomes an increasing concern as boats get longer than 25'. A 25' boat with an extra long shaft outboard works fine.
5) Looks nicer and the boat's weight is a bit better balanced.
6) Controls are closer to the helm.

In a 25' boat I think an outboard is much better. In a 29' boat an inboard is nearly a requirement. In between it could go either way, but if I were on a <$10k budget I think I'd rather than a 27' boat with a new outboard and new sails than a 30' boat with an 35 year old inboard and beat sails. That is often the tradeoff being considered.

The Tartan 30 having 7' of rotten deck replaced with two holes sound dubious to me. I don't know how they'd clean out 7' of rotten core with only two access holes.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

I think there is more than two holes. I was mistaken when I said that. Also my budget is under 15k. And yea, I would like to ke ep it in the 28+ range. Really sounds like the guy has been on top of everything. Now I am just wondering what a fair price is for this 72 tartan in fairly good shape. Asking 11500. I am thinking if I can get it for 9 or 9500 it is not too bad of a deal. I have seen them from 5-17k. Or can I do much better with 10-12k?


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

abrahamx said:


> ...Now I am just wondering what a fair price is for this 72 tartan in fairly good shape.?


You have not looked at enough boats. Take your time and don't pull the trigger too quickly. You will know the answer to your own question after you discover what is available in your area at what prices.

At the same time, you should really do some reading on typical maintenance and repair issues. Start with Don Casey's "This Old Boat", and move on to Don Casey's "Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual" with a first section entitled "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat". You will be a far better prepared boat buyer and boat owner with some reading before you buy.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

I do appreciate the advice. While I have not read that book. I actually have been looking solidly for 6 years. Only now I can make the actual buy. Currently I have looked at about 5-6 boats. The bottom on this one looks the best. I also crew on a couple boats weekly so do get to see a fair amount of boats. I was just weary on age cuz before I wanted newer and now I want 30'. Sooooo. Just want to make sure its not crazy to pay 9 k for a decent 72 tartan 30? Thanks again.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

That could only be answered by someone with recent knowledge of the current market for used sailboats in your particular geographic area.

As Jeff H alluded to, the drill and fill repair is a red flag - an indication that the seller may have taken short cuts with other repair and maintenance problems.

In the Chesapeake Bay, that would be grossly overpriced for that boat, IMHO. Sellers are giving away used sailboats in this market.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

James is right about one thing- 11500 is way overpriced for the Chesapeake area, but we don't really know what the market is like in your area.

Dude, you seem pretty intent on this Tartan. First, don't get emotionally invested in a boat (until after you buy it). Second, if you're so strongly interested in this boat, then you've got to stop mentally masturbating about it on Sailnet and go SEE the deck for yourself, and the rest of the boat. Hypothesizing will get you nowhere.

Take a phenolic hammer (small, plastic mallet) and tap around on the deck. Dull thuds are sodden areas. A harder, higher pitched sound is drier. Inspect the repaired area of the deck.

Then, if you really think you want the boat, get an actual survey. The surveyor will get moisture readings on the deck and tell you if you should run away.

$9k is the MOST I'd offer for this boat, and only if the rest of it were in damn good shape. As a comparison point, I paid $4k for a very dry, very solid Pearson 30. A fellow Sailnet'er named Tardis purchased a newer P30, just as solid, and better equipped for only a little more than what I paid for mine.

Go see the boat, take a lot of photos, tap the decks, then come back and tell us what you found.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Yep. Just waiting for sat when the owner opens it up. I'm not really hooked on the boat just yet. Just trying to get informed.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Ah good. Glad you have an appointment. I'm genuinely curious as to what you'll find.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Said it needs a water system and new flooring and a new gas tank was put in and needs a cover for that for a cabinet to be put in? From what I recall about our recent conversation.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

abrahamx said:


> Said it needs a water system and new flooring and a new gas tank was put in and needs a cover for that for a cabinet to be put in? From what I recall about our recent conversation.


Sounds as if it sunk or was flooded...look for the telltale highwater stains/marks, mud in furniture/lockers, etc.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

abrahamx said:


> Said it needs a water system and new flooring and a new gas tank was put in and needs a cover for that for a cabinet to be put in? From what I recall about our recent conversation.


Don't get attached but definately update us on this...very curious (still sounds like an unrealistic asking price)


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I have a hard time commenting on prices. Prices in Seattle are clearly a lot higher than the ones that you guys are mentioning for the Chesapeake, I personally can't guess where Michigan might end up on that scale.

A well loved plastic fantastic yacht in Seattle with a fairly new diesel (and assuming everything else is in good condition) is worth more like $20k than $10k.

We know very little about this one, except that it has a new diesel and appears to not necessarily be well loved. When I'm boat shopping I personally figure out well loved before I figure out the boat's value. A lot of what it takes to get a boat into good shape again isn't just labor.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Actually it seems very well loved to me. The guy is pretty much on top of things. Granted there are things that need to be done but that takes forever. I can do floors and put a cabinet in place. Newly sealed and painted hull, new pro done electric. On top of moisture on deck. New smaller halyards going on this year. Newer nice selection of sails. He sails around here every year and they have a big yellow spin. with a huge moose on it. While not my thing, its fairly cool. I have seen about 10-15 of them for sale online across the country and except two that are $2500 and 5000 because they are in bad shape. The rest run from 7500 - 22000+ most being in the 9-17 range, and most have original engine. And who knows how many have been drilled and filled. I was checking out a restoration that a guy did and he seemed to spare no expense and did a great top notch job on everything, and he used the drill and fill method? Just what I have seen. I have about 5k that I can put into the boat asap for some fixin up and when I sell the vette I'll have more. I'm actually looking forward to sprucing up a tartan 30 and not having to worry about the engine.


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## algee (Feb 28, 2010)

Look it over very closely, have it surveyed, if you like it---make an offer and buy it!! Sailboats are just big boy's toys, and the only reason to have a toy is to enjoy playing with it.


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

I have a 73 T 30 and am also awaiting your observations. The flooring was originaly cork and after 40 yrs is proably worn out, it sits in recessed pan and can be pulled up and re-done. The cabinet that covers the fuel tank is simple, as long as there is no extensive rot it should not be a big deal. The water tank is a big glassed in structure on the port side, if the tank itself is bad hat could be a bigger deal. Good luck!


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

baboon. Can you give anymore insight into replacing the water tank if need be? Or can you point me in the direction of some info? Is it just cut for acess, replace, reglass? Or is it a bulkhead style tank?


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

I have never had to work on mine so am not sure of the exact set up. It takes up most of the area under the port setee and appears integral to the glass interior liner. Mine has 2 small round access ports and the whole top is removable, but screwed and caulked in place. If it is cracked or leaking it should be repairable as long as you can get the top off. It is large enough that another option if it is not salvagable is to cut out the baffles and place a new tank inside the old, at some loss of volume of course.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Looked pretty good. Said he'd take 9k. My only big gripe is its a porta potty and not a full head with holding tank. That will be my first major project I think. Any pointers? Barring a major bad report from a survey, this sucker is mine. Have about 5k to fix her up a tad.
'


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

C'mon dude, no pictures?

Yeah, a port-a-potti on a 30 footer sucks. I didn't mind it on my Coronado 25, but once I stepped up, I expected better. Have fun installing that.:laugher


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

In fact, if you plan on installing a head & holding tank why not offer $1k less to cover materials & labor? $8000. 
Negotiate in the nicest way possible.
T30 is a nice boat. You wont regret it.


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

Have a look at dry composting toilet. Easier instalation, less maintinance.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

offer was $2500 under asking price already. I figure that will cover the head and flooring. Hull #140. Tried five times to upload. Knew it would be a pain in the ass. Sorry. I will try again some day but probably wont work.


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## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

Abrahamx,

You and the seller have now agreed on a price for a boat in certain condition, that does not mean the deal is done. The seller should be willing to re-negotiate the price if the independent survey shows that the boat is not actually in the condition that was originally represented and affects the actual value.

The seller may already be at his rock bottom number but it is not unreasonable to negotiate the price down by the amount it would take to make repairs. There will be things to fix in the near future that even the seller may not know about so the better your position going in the more you will have to put toward the inevitable, unforeseen expenses down the road 

Congratulations and good luck!


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

yep I hear you. The survey he had from 06 did note some moisture in the bow, some on cabin top and rudder and skeg. I will be paying big attention to this and if a survey notes it is repairable then I will do so. If to far gone then I obviously wont be buying. Sure did not look or feel bad so I dont think it is extensive plus its worked for him all these years.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

other than why I cant upload pics there are a couple things I dont understand about this boat. One is why is there no holding tank when I thought they were built with one, and he said that a dodger would not fit because the boom would get in the way, but I see pics of tartan 30's with them on all the time.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Most of us use an online photo site. It's fast and easy to post the direct link from anything you uploaded to your photosite that way.

Launch day, that's her at the loading dock  








It looks, by your posts that very few boats are ever going to meet all your expectations. Don't assume the present owner of a boat knows anything about sailing, rigging, or dodgers for that matter.


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

abrahamx said:


> other than why I cant upload pics there are a couple things I dont understand about this boat. One is why is there no holding tank when I thought they were built with one, and he said that a dodger would not fit because the boom would get in the way, but I see pics of tartan 30's with them on all the time.


They were not always bult with a holding tank (mine did not have one). A small tank fits fine in port v-berth storage with lots of room to run the hoses to the cabinet behind the head. This is an OK DYI job I did my self last year. The harder part will be installing the through hulls for the head itself if they are not already in place.

The T 30 is built to fit a dodger, there is a perfect spot to attach it to on the cabin top, it will not be tall enough to stand under, mine is sized to sit under comfortably, but low enough to see over the top while standing.


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

Here is a pic of the dodger, not the best but you get the idea.


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)




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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

baboon said:


> They were not always bult with a holding tank (mine did not have one). A small tank fits fine in port v-berth storage with lots of room to run the hoses to the cabinet behind the head. This is an OK DYI job I did my self last year. The harder part will be installing the through hulls for the head itself if they are not already in place.
> 
> The T 30 is built to fit a dodger, there is a perfect spot to attach it to on the cabin top, it will not be tall enough to stand under, mine is sized to sit under comfortably, but low enough to see over the top while standing.


Thanks alot Baboon. I hope to talk to you alot in the comming years. Where are you doing most of your sailing?


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Flickr: amnys4's Photostream


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Nice pix.
Your T30 looks pretty clean in the photos. 
Nice Kubota diesel.
So the cabin floor needs some work, big deal; you should see the cork flooring 
on my T27 pulling up after perhaps 45 years of use. I need to re-do my cabin sole
too. 
Hope the boat has some decent sails with.
Congrats!


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Looks good! Congratulations on your new boat!


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

The boat looks pretty good. The boat has Blue Sea Systems electrical panels. Those are quality. Hopefully the wiring was done properly as well.

Oh- Get rid of the moose.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

All things considered and a decent survey, that is a very nice looking boat for less than $10K. It was hard to tell in the photos but are the non-skid portions of the decks crazed? 

Jeff


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Beta diesel, I dont believe there is any crazing, wiring was done by Toledo Beach Marina, hopefully right. All sails are within 6 years old a newer (two years) genoa and main, and me and the moose wont be sailing together long. He's already unwelcome. Can I just pull it off or will it need a repaint after pulling the graphics?


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

abrahamx said:


> Looked pretty good. Said he'd take 9k. My only big gripe is its a porta potty and not a full head with holding tank. That will be my first major project I think. Any pointers? Barring a major bad report from a survey, this sucker is mine. Have about 5k to fix her up a tad.
> '


I would look into an airhead/natures head/c-head as they all require no holding tank or plumbing. Since it has a portapotty and no through hulls it would make for an easy install, and cheaper by the time you figure in the cost of all the plumbing and holding tank.

Good looking boat! congratulations.


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

Based on your photos it looks pretty good for the price as long as the survey comes out OK. If it does not have seacocks for the head you might stick with the port-a-potti for a while, I know it is not perfect, but it will work fine for 1 or 2 and save money up front compared to installing a full head and tank system.

The floor looks bad, but a few hours with a putty knife and a heat gun should get it up. Mine still has the cork in pretty good shape, but if I had to replace it I might go with one of the marine quaility wood like vinyl products (plasteak or similar). Becuase it is not flat real wood would be hard.

The moose graphics might be an issue. If the boat has been painted you risk damaging the paint, if it is paint or gelcoat the area under the moose will most likely be a darker color. Not to sound like a broken record, but this might be another thing you live with for a while and focus on other issues. Even if it surveys well you will find many things to spend money on that will be more important. Basics like safety gear, getting the mast stepped and the boat in the water, replacing rope, etc can eat up a budget quick.

Good luck!


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

It does look nice for under 10K so I will say congratulations on your find and let's hole for a good survey


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

OK. Survey rommorow. By now I am pretty hooked on this boat but not enough to walk away if I have to. I'm pretty sure it has some delamination going on in the rudder and skeg. Does not look bad but can tell by knocking on it. I am pretty handy and could deal with that. Just hope the hull and deck are sound and I should be good.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Sooooooooo. The surveyor said he was pleasantly surprised. He figured when I said a 72 that he would be in and out of there. Also said that I would not find another boat with less problems in my price range so thats good. The deck is bad on the starboard side for about 4 feet. It had been drilled and filled but he said it did not work very well. A couple spots by the bow pulpit. Said I should epoxy the pulpit and re mount. Will need new cutlass bering soon. High moisture in the rudder but not delaminated. Suggested to drill some holes while out of the water to let it dry out. Main problem, I think, is there is alot of oil in the bilge and the engine was low on oil. Hmm. also the oil was super clean which suggests lots of changes. Although it has been on the hard for 6+ months. The owner says he has no idea and wonders why the bilge pump would not pick it up. Says he does not go through oil. Surveyor suggested having him put it in the water before purchase and make sure the engine is not spitting crap all over. alth ough there is no evidence it has been. Will probably try to get a diesel survey asap then make the purchase asap after that. Any and all opinions more than welcome on my purchase of this boat for 9k. Again the surveyor said he did not think I would find a boat with less issues for that money. And that is all the money I have. Oh the spreaders had elongated holes in them and he is going from a wire halard to a rope and said the sheaves have a smaller slot made for the wire. But he did not mention anything about changing them.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

You need to test the engine before closing on the purchase so you can determine the source of the leaking oil.

Is your contract subject to a sea trial? If so, does your contract specify at whose expense will the boat be made ready for a sea trial?


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Is it a Perkins by chance? I think they all leak oil to some extent. Seems British motors, don't leak oil, they just like to mark there territory. But sea trial is a good idea and likely as important or more so than the survey. Sometimes the surveyor will do it with you for a small fee if they did a full inspection. 

Sounds like a good boat otherwise, just keep in mind a new diesel, will run you in the neighborhood of $10,000 so it is the value of the boat itself.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

I was to pay for the boat well this year but the owner agreed to step the mast and otherwise get the boat rigged and tuned and ready to sail. We had not agreed on a sea trial. I figured if the boat surveyed well it should sail as good as it should? Beta/kubota diesel by the way. Not quite sure the owner is of able body to do a sea trial.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

abrahamx said:


> I was to pay for the boat well this year but the owner agreed to step the mast and otherwise get the boat rigged and tuned and ready to sail. We had not agreed on a sea trial. I figured if the boat surveyed well it should sail as good as it should? Beta/kubota diesel by the way. Not quite sure the owner is of able body to do a sea trial.


You and the surveyor go on the sea trial; owner can stay ashore. I would not buy a boat without a satisfactory sea trial.

Ignore the nonsense about how some don't want to give a free boat ride or you should already know how it sails. That is rubbish. You cannot be confident about how that particular boat will function and discover its true condition without a sea trial.

Even the broker's assn. contract has a sea trial provision in it. The contract I used (and published here for free) makes it a contingency, satisfactory in your absolute discretion, boat to be made ready in the water at the seller's expense. If you don't like it for any reason, you get your deposit back and you walk.

"4. Contingencies: The sale is subject to a satisfactory marine survey or professional inspection, and a satisfactory sea trial by Buyer, both to be completed at Buyer's option and expense by ____________________. Seller shall make the Sailboat available for the survey and inspection and Seller shall cause the Sailboat to be placed in the water and ready prior to the sea trial at Seller's expense. In the event that either the survey/inspection or sea trial are not satisfactory to Buyer in his sole discretion, then the earnest money deposit shall be forthwith refunded to Buyer."

Renegotiate your contract to include a sea trial so you can fully test the boat's operation and know what you are buying.

By the way, as much respect as I have for marine surveyors, they do make mistakes, just like everyone else. You cannot rely on his or her opinion as a substitute for your own judgment.

Whole contract I used, drawn up for Virginia:

CONTRACT OF SALE
THIS CONTRACT OF SALE is made this ____ day of ______________, 20____, by and between __________________________________________________("the Seller") and _________________________________________________ ("the Buyer").
WITNESSETH: that for and in consideration of the mutual promises and covenants contained herein and other good and valuable consideration, the receipt and sufficiency of which are hereby acknowledged by the parties, Seller and Buyer agree as follows:
1. Property. Seller agrees to sell to Buyer and Buyer agrees to purchase from Seller a ____ _____________________ sailboat, "______________", hull identification number __________________________ along with all property attached to and enclosed in the vessel, including but not limited to the following ( all of which, the vessel and the property, to be referred to as "the Sailboat"):
a. All standing and running rigging, mast, boom, spreaders, stays, shrouds, traveler, mainsheet, jib sheets, ________ winches, ____ winch handles, cleats, traveler, and boom vang;
b. Main sail and ____________ jibs, sail bags and mainsail cover;
c. ____________________________________ engine and gas tank;
d. Electrical system, wiring and electronics, marine battery, VHF radio, depth finder, cabin lights, battery switch, running lights, and _______________________________;
d. Below decks/cabin furnishings, equipment, cushions for all berths, cooler, _________ toilet with _____________, foul weather jackets/gear, books, charts, and __________________;
e. Safety gear/equipment: ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ electric and manual bilge pumps, lifelines, stanchions, bow pulpit, stern pulpit, life preservers, flotation cushions, bell, flares, horn and ________________________________;
f. Anchor, anchor chain, and rode, mooring lines, cleats, ____ fenders; and,
g. Other: _________________________________________________________. 
2. Price. The total sales price for the Sailboat is _____________________________________
Dollars ($___________.00). Seller acknowledges receipt of an earnest money deposit check in the amount of __________________________ Dollars ($______) from Buyer, with the balance of the total sales price to be paid by Buyer to Seller at closing.
3. Seller's Representations: Seller represents and warrants the following: that Seller has clear title to the Sailboat, free and clear of any liens, levies, charges, assessments, or attachments; that Seller is the sole owner, with full and complete authority to enter into this contract of sale and to transfer title to the vessel to Buyer by a certificate of title; that the Sailboat is in normal operating condition for a vessel of its age; and that Seller has no knowledge of any material defect(s) in the Sailboat, patent or latent, except as follows:___________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________.
4. Contingencies: The sale is subject to a satisfactory marine survey or professional inspection, and a satisfactory sea trial by Buyer, both to be completed at Buyer's option and expense by ____________________. Seller shall make the Sailboat available for the survey and inspection and Seller shall cause the Sailboat to be placed in the water and ready prior to the sea trial at Seller's expense. In the event that either the survey/inspection or sea trial are not satisfactory to Buyer in his sole discretion, then the earnest money deposit shall be forthwith refunded to Buyer.
5. Closing: This sale shall close on _____________________ at _____________________, at which time Buyer shall deliver to Seller a certified or cashier's check for the balance of the Sales Price in return for Seller's transfer of the title to Sailboat to Buyer, by endorsement and delivery of a certificate of title to Buyer and by Seller's transfer to Buyer of any and all keys, locks, and operational devices. The Seller shall deliver and transfer the Sailboat to Buyer at closing, launched/re-launched in the water at _________________________________________. Risk of loss remains with Seller until delivery of title to Buyer.
6. Addresses: Seller and Buyer each warrant and represent to each other that his residential address and telephone number are as follows:
Seller:____________________________________________________________________
Buyer: ____________________________________________________________________
7. Modification: This contract may only be modified by a writing signed by the parties.
WITNESS the following signatures and seals:
SELLER: BUYER:

__________________________(SEAL)	___________________________(SEAL)

__________________________(SEAL)	___________________________(SEAL)


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

It sounds pretty mixed on the survey and I would have the engine carefully evaluated.

You can clearly get the next size smaller boat with less issues for less money. There is a huge price difference jumping from 25-27' boats to 28-30' boats due to the complexities of an inboard. There are comfort payoffs, which is why so many of us do it, but it's not the cheap route to enjoying sailing.

This one is less money today because it is lower purchase price, if it ends up with motor issues you are still going to likely end up with a $15-$20k boat within a year. It's worth getting estimates or figuring out your own time investment for repairing the decks, fixing the engine, and repairing the rudder.

Is the Tartan 30 rudder wood core? If they are then that could be expensive to replace. If it is weeping moisture and wood core than the core is shot and you'll probably need a new one.

If your budget is strict and tight then I'd personally give this one a pass. If it is elastic and has a desire to stay small then it might be worth the risk (especially if you enjoy the fix-it projects).


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Thanks for the contract. A mechanic I talked to said it sounds like (from the clear oil on the dipstick) that it was filled in the fall. And since it is half full that is probably what leaked. Said it was probably the rear main or oil tank and either way the engine would have to be pulled to be repaired. Putting repairs at the 2k mark. Not sure if it is true or not with a tartan as they have such good engine acess. Anyone know diesels in a tartan?


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

What if there is a more serious problem and the engine needs to be replaced?

At a minimum, you need to test it on the hard with a hose and bucket rig. Pay a mechanic to inspect and evaluate the engine with you while it is running.

The inboard engine accounts for about half the value of these old boats. Don't make a big mistake and buy an inoperable one.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Not a good sign. Depends what is leaking. Lower seal means engine comes out. That's a lot of oil in a short time without it being run. I would be very cautious. 

James is rightl. Sea trial is not o see if it sails, but to see if its ship shape , engine , leaks etc.

Dave


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I did want to add that I have heard you when you've said that you don't want a smaller boat. I don't make that recommendation again just to annoy you.

I want a brand new J/97, but can't justify/afford the price so I have something less expensive. It's a matter of fitting available budget to the right boat.

No information on sails from the survey is a concern too.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

For those of you unfamiliar with the T30 cabin layout you need to know that the engine access is superb; the best I have seen in any other sail boat. The engine sits in the middle of the cabin sole (under a removable cover) and is easily accessible on all sides. 
The engine is NOT tucked away under the companionway steps like in most designs.

You do need to find out where/why the engine oil is leaking out. The good news is that it is a Kubota and parts can be found cheaply for it from farming/heavy equipment dealers, not marine pirate retailers. Parts from the marine pirates can cost 90% more than a farmer might pay so you can save some serious cash if you know where/how to shop for Kubota parts. Sounds to me like a main rear seal or water pump oil seal could allow oil to drip out; neither of which are un-fixable.

There must be 5 T30's at our club. I see them come up for sale from time to time and they are usually priced a bit lower than $9K. Keep in mind that most of these T30's had the Atomic 4 engine in them which is reflected in the lower price. I don't think that $9K is too much for a T30 with a good working diesel in it - you just need to make sure that the diesel is "good working" and not spilling oil. The real question is who pays for making the engine a non-oil leaking engine: you, or the current owner?


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I agree with Caleb. Run the engine on the hard and see what you've got. The excellent engine access makes this a really viable option. Finding an older boat like this that has had the A4 replaced by a diesel is a big plus. Worth finding out what the issues ar with the engine is worth it since you've already had the survey with no really major problems uncovered.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

4' of soft decks and the rudder having elevated moisture levels aren't major problems?

The Tartan 30 and similar Yankee 30 do have good engine access.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I bought Synergy without a sail trial. I normally don't recommend doing that (especially you are buying the boat with every penny that you have.) In my case money was put in escrow to cover the transmission and the depth sounder until we could test them, and then retuirned when they turned out to be in good shape.

We tested the engine by putting the engine cooling water intake hose in a bucket and ran a garden hose to the bucket to keep it full and so we were able to run the engine for about 15 minutes or so and look for issues.



Alex W said:


> 4' of soft decks and the rudder having elevated moisture levels aren't major problems?
> 
> The Tartan 30 and similar Yankee 30 do have good engine access.


I would say that those are comparatively minor problems on a forty year old, $9,000 Boat with a diesel and decent sails...

Jeff


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

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First i sail on a boat with a 12 year old saltwater used Beta and that motor has clearly had TONS of water dripped on it OR the boat flooded at some point and rusted up the rear main seal causing the oil leak



It is pretty common for stored boats to flood form snow over the winter and do something like this and the green wood mold is a sign of much wetness

Paying to Pull the motor to fix oil the leak is a budget buster and the boat cant be used like THAT

I tend to agree you will not do much better one question is how the survey will be written up and how your insurance would interpret it

For example if he says the wet area of deck is delaminated they could mandate a repair before the boat can be used

They would most certainly take issue with original standing rigging


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Just to add, the oil level is right in the middle of high and low, not under low. No idea of where he filled it to.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Just a note about oil leaks.. there have been a few discussions about crankcase breathers, blockage of and installed wrong. 
Jus sayin


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

OK, I am about to go mad. What is, no WTW is this stuff about crankcase breathers? Flippin A! I do agree about the engine apperance. Was the first thing I noted. Even mentioned it to the surveyor. Mentioned that it was more dirtier than what I was accustomed to and he just shruged it off.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

I suppose the crankcase breather is a possibility. It it posssible that the owner filled the oil to half way between full and under full and it has not leaked any oil while on the hard. The oil in the bilge was dirty I am pretty sure. I do agree with the engine appearance. Just not sure how it would get wet being in the middle of the cabin unless it was dripping down the mast. The boat was nicely shrink wrapped. I guess its worth $200 to find out what the deal is.


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

You seem cool with all the other issues on this boat so as was posted already run it on the hard to identify the source of the oil. 
You will have to clean it up first but all you will have invested is some time, the oil in the bilge could be from a sloppy change...who knows.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

At the very least, run the engine on the hard, using a bucket of water for cooling.

Since it's located in the middle of the cabin, you can easily observe the engine for excess vibration, leaks, smoke, etc. While the engine is running, shine a powerful light onto "mating surfaces" like the cylinder head, intake and exhaust manifolds, thermostat housing, injectors, water pump, heat exchanger...anywhere that something could leak a gas or fluid.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

I am trying to confirm but the survey from 06. Had the motor at 86 hours. A mechanic said its likely to have about 200 on it now. Hard to believe it could be shot. We shall see. Probably spring for the survey.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

It is hard to believe that it is shot unless it was run without oil, or cooling water at some point. Bad fuel and improper fuel filters can do a real number on the fuel injection system. (I once looked at a boat with a friend that the owner had removed the fuel filter from the system. When asked he said,"It was a pain in the neck, since it kept getting blocked up.") Injector parts are expensive even when bought at the farm store.


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

Here are some ideas,

My T 30 has a universal 3 cyl in it, I think the same block as the beta. I think running it prior to purchase is a great idea as you do not know where the bilge oil came from. On mine the oil filter is on the back (port) side of the block and is horizontal. It is impossible to get it off without slopping some oil. I use a plastic bag under it to catch most but not all of the oil. My bilge also had some old oil in it, most likely had been there for years from the old A4. Run it and see what happens.

The rudder is foam encased in FRG, the post has horizontal metal bars welded to it. To the best my knowledge they all leak eventually. If you have not already, have one person hold the rudder while a second moves the tiller. If there is slop check the hinge at the tiller and attachment to the post. If they are secure then the post might be loose in the rudder, a fellow owner found his horizontal supports had rusted off the post in the now saturated foam. He fixed it as a DIY project, not easy. My rudder leaks a bit of water when pulled, has been in the water year round for 40 yrs and is still solid.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

Since the oil in the engine is clean and the oil in the bilge dirty, isn't it likely that that the oil in the bilge was spilled from an oil change? Additionally, a little bit of oil in the bilge will make a real mess and if there is a gallon of water in the bilge it will be hard to tell how much oil there really is.

IMHO, before you panic and start pulling things apart, you should note the oil level on the dipstick, then run the engine for 30 minutes, shut down, wait 30 minutes, and then measure it again. While the engine is running you should be looking for oil leaks.

Good luck,
Barry



abrahamx said:


> I suppose the crankcase breather is a possibility. It it posssible that the owner filled the oil to half way between full and under full and it has not leaked any oil while on the hard. The oil in the bilge was dirty I am pretty sure. I do agree with the engine appearance. Just not sure how it would get wet being in the middle of the cabin unless it was dripping down the mast. The boat was nicely shrink wrapped. I guess its worth $200 to find out what the deal is.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

The owner is putting it in the water this weekend and I am scheduling a survey for the motor for my own piece of mind. The owner insists he has no idea how anything got there and that he never has to add oil. I have since talked to several folks who say they end up with oil in the bilge over winter. At 234 lbs. I am not worried about pulling this thing.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

I can see signs of rust near the lower hinge. The surveyor seemed to think it was the fact(?) That they probably used iron welding rod instead of stainless?


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Lower hinge of what??


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Rudder. Sorry I meant to quote a previous post.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Now I find out the boat has been retagged because of the z in the hin. The owner mentioned a diesel spill which is why I assumed the new tank. Said diesel was almost to the floor boards. Not sure if that alone would cause it to be sold as a salvaged boat and hence the retag. Any opinions? You saw the pics and I am still tempted to buy given a good motor survey. Not sure what else to look for now. The boat was built in Feb. of 1972. Might it not have had a hull no. at first, then issued one when sold? Also, does this boatfax site work or is there any legit way to track the history of this boat?


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

abrahamx said:


> Now I find out the boat has been retagged because of the z in the hin. The owner mentioned a diesel spill which is why I assumed the new tank. Said diesel was almost to the floor boards. Not sure if that alone would cause it to be sold as a salvaged boat and hence the retag. Any opinions? You saw the pics and I am still tempted to buy given a good motor survey. Not sure what else to look for now. The boat was built in Feb. of 1972. Might it not have had a hull no. at first, then issued one when sold? Also, does this boatfax site work or is there any legit way to track the history of this boat?


Well I can't imagine that boatfax works any better than carfax, as in does not work at all. Only thing is try tracing the past owners, via Coast Guard via documentation if it was, good luck with that. I think I would just give him a low offer, and get it or leave it. Non of your things listed are deal killers for me, but there are a few issues. The Tartan 30 is a really good boat. Any boat that age is going to have issues, and it is is still floating. If the motor runs well, and sails are ok, and rigging is not too bad, I would get it if i thought it would serve my needs. They are pretty simple boats so if you are at all handy I don't see any big issues.

By the way I had a car that I know was totaled twice (once by me, but not my fault) and both times there was insurance claims and it showed up with a clean car fax when I got rid if it! So I don't trust car fax, and there have been other cases where is did not find damage or other history.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

DSC_0022[1] | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Mine today ! Thanks for all your help. Be back to bug you with other issues soon.


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