# Bluewater pocket cruisers



## TSOJOURNER

What boats would you add to this list of reliable small (30-38) bluewater boats for a cruising couple?

Island packett
Cabo Rico
Pacific Seacraft
???
???
???


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## sailingdog

Alberg 30, 37, 
Southern Cross 31
Hallberg Rassy


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## TSOJOURNER

1951 HINCKLEY 36 Custom
eBay Motors: 1951 HINCKLEY 36 Custom- Washington DC- NO RESERVE (item 190121875826 end time Jun-18-07 11:00:00 PDT)


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## TSOJOURNER

Bayfield 32/36
Nonsuch 30/33/36
Niagara 35
Ontario 32


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## capttb

TaShing Baba's 
Shannons


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## Rickm505

No one put a catamaran on this list? Hmmm.... I'll list a couple that can be obtained for a reasonable price used. 

1. Fontaine Pajot Tobago 35
2. 36' PDQ MKIII LRC
3. 35' Charter Cats, SA Wildcat 35 MKII (Controversial, but One just returned from a circumnavigation)

What can I say... I'm a catamaran guy.

Rick in Florida


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## camaraderie

Tayana 37, Cape Dory 32,36


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## ccam

Hans Christian 33T


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## haffiman37

We managed quite well 2/3 way around the world in our Jeanneau SO 37.


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## TSOJOURNER

> We managed quite well 2/3 way around the world in our Jeanneau SO 37.


And then what happened ???


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## haffiman37

Sailormann said:


> And then what happened ???


We moved ashore!

And with twins 3 months old it seems that we are staying ashore for some time.

However the trip was initially only planned from Norway to Malaysia.

index


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## TSOJOURNER

Well - good that it was a positive rather than negative factor, but don't keep those young'uns shorebound. Pick up a home-schooling guide and get back out there, they'll be forever grateful to you when they are adults.


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## TSOJOURNER

Union 36
Fuji 32, 35
Cascade 36
Cape George 36
Tayana 37
Pacific Seacraft 34
Hans Christian 33, 38
Bristol 35
CSY 36
Cooper 353


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## CaptKermie

Funny, nobody mentioned the 'Contessa 32' and it is a proven BW sailor.


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## Sapperwhite

I kinda have a thing for Pacific Seacraft, but the Cabo Rico 38 is really nice too.


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## JohnRPollard

I must be getting old. There was a time when 30+ foot boats were not considered "pocket cruisers". You mentioned Pacific Seacraft, here's a list of their pocket cruisers:

Pacific Seacraft Flicka 20
Pacific Seacraft 25
Pacific Seacraft Dana 24
Pacific Seacraft Orion 27

Heading up into the 30+ foot range, many folks have heard of the Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34 and 37, but not their smaller sistership the Crealock 31 (and Pilothouse variant, PH 32). An earlier (1970's) PSC model, the Mariah 31, is also an option.


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## Sapperwhite

I can comment directly on the PSC Orion, since we have one. Great little boat for the money. But if you want a microwave, A/C, a blender, and all of that other stuff they pack into a floating condo, then you will have to go a little larger. But, if you want a boat that can go around the world, is small enough to easily handle, and has relatively low maint. cost due to everything aboard being smaller and simpler, then look no further. If you want those luxury items; a Crealock 37, Cabo Rico 38, maybe an old Westsail to fix-er-up would do better.

I guess "pocket cruiser" is a term relative to ones "pocket depth", among other things.


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## TSOJOURNER

You need to remember though, that you are tempting the fates. If God had meant for us to leave sight of shore, he would never have made Catalinas !


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## denby

Sailormann said:


> You need to remember though, that you are tempting the fates. If God had meant for us to leave sight of shore, he would never have made Catalinas !


Are Cats that bad?

Dennis


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## Rickm505

Cats? .....pardon me?


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## denby

Rickm505 said:


> Cats? .....pardon me?


 Sorry, I sometimes refer to Catalina's as cats. Your cat just flips.

Dennis


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## SimonV

C A T A M A R A N S

To go blue water catamarans need to be quite large there fore expensive! Mono hulls will better carry the fuel, provisions and water than a similar sized cat, due to not having a bridge clearance problem which causes severe hammering, slapping from rough choppy sea.


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## TSOJOURNER

> Are Cats that bad?


No they aren't - I was being facetious. They do a very good job and there are many thousands of satisfied Catalina owners, but with the possible exception of the largest ones, they are not engineered for long periods offshore.

This not to say that you can't sail them across the Atlantic, however if you were to spend a lot of time sailing through hurricanes, and you had a friend sailing next to you on a Pacific Seacraft, or Valiant, or one of several other "offshore" boats, you may find that parts were breaking on your boat more often than on their boat.

MacGregors however, are indeed that bad - don't buy one if you are going to be sailing in anything more than a 5 knot breeze, every third weekend, for about 1/2 hour. They are suited to that but no more...


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## sailingdog

SimonV said:


> C A T A M A R A N S
> 
> To go blue water catamarans need to be quite large there fore expensive! Mono hulls will better carry the fuel, provisions and water than a similar sized cat, due to not having a bridge clearance problem which causes severe hammering, slapping from rough choppy sea.


Another person brainwashed by the new marine media agenda. The Heavenly Twins, Catalac 8M, Iroquois, and Gemini catamarans have all made bluewater passages without trouble. The HT is only 26' long. The Geminis are 35' or so.

Yes, a low bridge deck can be a problem, as can overloading, but to sail across oceans does not require a large boat. People have been doing just that for many years, before the 40'+ boats came along.

The Polynesians were crossing the southern Pacific ocean years before the Europeans left sight of shore, and did so in multihulled boats.


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## Rickm505

Ummm.....SimonV

Thanks Sailingdog... Now I thought all of the "down under" guys fully understood the benefits of having 2 hulls and 2 engines. My Cat is a Catalac, which is a small cruising catamaran. It was sailed from Europe to the USA and I would not hesitate to go wherever I desire in her.

It's possible that you might have been misinformed.

Rick in Florida


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## sailingdog

Rick... amended my post to add the Catalac 8M's which are nice little cats.  

BTW, cruising on a trimaran generally requires a longer LOA than a Catamaran, since a trimaran generally has less space than a catamaran or monohull of same LOA, as well as less ability to bear weight.


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## SimonV

Hey Guys (Rick & SD)

Don’t get me wrong, I would love a Catamaran, but don't have buckazoids. Chartered a 34' Cat in the Whitsunday’s with two other families and when the short chop built up with wind against tide we had severe slapping under the bridge deck. I got to the point it was concerning and I had to stop taking the waves head on, and another thing it felt like the boat was walking from one hull to the other; admittedly this was a motion I was not used too. I have nothing against Cats (unless they are fluffy) they just can not carry the same load as a mono of a similar size.


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## capttb

Just getting back to Sailormann's premise of sailing a Catalina alongside a PS and having more stuff break. I think it would work out just fine, cause you'd have to heave to and wait for the PS to catch up once in a while anyway.
Sorry, just gettin' sensitive about my Catalina being called everything from "The Oldsmobile of sailboats" to "unusable beyond sight of land". As early as 1970 Tristan Jones wrote that "most production boats made today will withstand far more at sea then will the people on board her".
And I must agree that the most frustrated looking group you'll ever see on the water is people trying to sail the newer Mac's.


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## cardiacpaul

Capttb,

they're just yankin' chains 

more to the OP's subject:
PS,
Tayana
Baba
Valiant Esprit 37
Freedom 33, 35
Cabo


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## yotphix

Seems like the easy thing to do would be to list those vessels not suitable for the op's needs. but that might start a fight.


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## capttb

And in truth, there is an Baba Flying Dutchman in a nearby harbor that's been for sale that I dream of, altho' she's not realistic for my uses, how can you not love a nice one. If Walt Disney built a boat (instead of Roy) it would look like a Baba. This one looks like a "harbor queen" with very low engine hours. And there's a Tartan 3100 Piper I'm keepin' an eye on that I'd seriously like to be the next girl to take to the dance.


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## sailingdog

capttb said:


> And in truth, there is an Baba Flying Dutchman in a nearby harbor that's been for sale that I dream of, altho' she's not realistic for my uses, how can you not love a nice one. If Walt Disney built a boat (instead of Roy) it would look like a Baba. This one looks like a "harbor queen" with very low engine hours. And there's a Tartan 3100 Piper I'm keepin' an eye on that I'd seriously like to be the next girl to take to the dance.


Harbor queens with very low engine hours are often disasters waiting in surprise. If the engine has very low hours and was not properly maintained, it can often be in far worse shape than an engine that got proper TLC and was used regularly.


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## TSOJOURNER

> Sorry, just gettin' sensitive about my Catalina being called everything from "The Oldsmobile of sailboats" to "unusable beyond sight of land".


Geez - I've never heard Catalinas equated with "Oldsmobiles" ... I've heard Chevy, Ford, Lada, Yugo, Renault (_or was that the Beneteau ??_) but never "Oldsmobile"...


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## capttb

Yugo ? Come on, I've never had parts fly off the boat in a stiff breeze, Ford or Chevy is alright, I guess, as long as it's not one of the exploding models.


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## TSOJOURNER

Just kiddin' - Catalinas are not bad boats - was thinking seriously about buying one at one point...


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## TSOJOURNER

Don't forget the Bristols and Albergs, both the B29 and the B35, and the Alberg 30 and 37 are top notch cruisers, although I agree that the 30+ category exceeds the commonly accepted threshold for "pocket" cruiser. My father had a Marine Concepts 23 ft canoe yawl that was a classic pocket cruiser. Beautiful little thing!


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## Stryker72

I noticed a lot of boats listed here have had some long runs of construction. Are there certain years that would be preferred over others? I.e. if we take the Bayfield 32 I have seen boats from 1974 up to 1988.


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## sailingdog

Stryker-

With some boats, all the years were pretty similar, with others... some years were definitely ones to avoid...


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## TSOJOURNER

Some boats were modified over their production runs, hull, deck, cabin. If you are getting serious about a particuar model/brand it's worth spending a little time researching the owners' associations and the builder histories on the net.


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## TSOJOURNER

*Great Dane 28*

Built to Lloyds, a very good pocket cruiser.

Great Dane 28 Owners Club |


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## pontiakos

Fuji's....


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## TSOJOURNER

I love my Fuji 32. The craftsmanship is incredible. The boat is pretty fast for a full keel boat (as opposed to our old cheoy lee). The interior is all original varnish and has no signs of ever having a leak. The ketch design helps make anchoring and cruising very comfortable. It is well insulated, so it stays relatively cool. It is very roomy inside and has a great stove. As with any small ketch, it is a very safe boat because it has soooo many lines and shrouds you're bound to get caught in a line if you fall over!


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## TThomsen

Hi all this is my first post

At present I am landlocked and have been for a few years though I am planing on taking a sabbatical in during the winter of 2008/09. 

There are many boats suitable for cruising/live aboard. One quistion is where are the intended cruising area. If it is Iceland or Cape Horn then I would opt for heavier displacement boat. If i were the milkrun around the world then many of the production boats would do, and it comes down to personal preference and layout.

I owned a Hunter Legend 37 at one time and it was a fun boat to sail, fast and very responsive, and could easily be modefied to sail long distances. I sailed a few other boats in the 33-37 foot range and can say that the only one I would not live aboard would be the C&C 35 from the early '80 due to the location of the sink in the galley.

I once chartered an IP35 in Florida and loved the boat it is very roomy had a great galley and was very seakind in 5-6 foot waves.

Personally I don't care much for boats with a lot of overhang since waves tend to slap at the bottom of the overhang all night long, depriving me from my beauty sleep.

Probably about ten years ago I downloaded a .xls file but can not upload the link since I have less than 10 posts. Therefore google "sail Data.xls" and you should find the file. 

Some of the information is great though I find the "Optimal Blue Water Cruiser" calculations dubious. Have fun with the file.


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## camaraderie

* If i were the milkrun around the world then many of the production boats would do

*Welcome aboard. Exactly what milkrun is there around the world? We've had other links here to that spread sheet and I think we all agree with your conclusion that it is interesting, but no way to select a boat.


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## TThomsen

With Milk Run (maybe it was a Coconut Run) I mean a circumnavigation where you stay within the trade-wind. Weather is more predictable here and as long as you stay out of the area during Hurricane, Typhoon and Cyclone seasons.


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## camaraderie

The Coconut Milk Run is a Pacific tradewinds route. While one can carry the trades around the world...there is no milk run circumnavigation route and even the Coconut Milk Run has been known to claim boats and lives. Blue Water is Blue Water. 
http://www.sail-world.com/asia/index.cfm?nid=37671


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## canadianseamonkey

Why are the Morgan OutIsland models never recommended? I've always been under the impression that they are good solid boats and built for Blue Water. Am I wrong?


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## camaraderie

CSM...the OI series was designed for charter work in the Caribbean trades. They make great liveaboads for coastal and caribe type cruising but sailing and sea-keeping characteristics leave much to be desired. Serveral other Morgan's not of the OI design make better sea boats.


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## TSOJOURNER

Would one of those better ocean-going models you reference be the Brewer designed 38? Have never been on one, but from the specs of some of them on yachtworld, look pretty decent. Skeg hung rudder, fairly deep draft, anybody have any experience with these?


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## Jeff_H

I would reiterate what Cam said about the poor seakeeping, motion comfort etc on a OI. But also build quality apparently varied quite widely within the OI series. There are owners who swear up and down that their OI was extremely well constucted but at least the one's that I knew directly they exhibited worse than shabby construction with regards to the quality of glasswork, hull to deck joint, bulkhead and hardware attachment, not to mention system installation. There is nothing about these boats that I would consider robust or 'blue water'. That said people have taken them offshore.

The Morgan 38 do have a better reputation. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## chucklesR

Gemini Catamaran's. American made, www.mypci.net 
Brand new, 150k, properly outfitted - lavishly for say 200k, and when you are done you don't have a boat worth 50k because ten year old, updated and rigged Gem's still fetch 150 ish, if treated and maintained right.
There is no better life than sitting in a catamaran cockpit watching the sun go down, getting up to refresh your drink and not having to climb down stairs to do it.
Open Ocean category A rated by the CE, same as all the other 35 ft'ers listed here going for 350 - 400k.
Pocket is relative, keep the money in your pocket, until you have to refill the rum.


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## camaraderie

Chuckles...I'm laughing! (g) You definitely are a one trick pony but nothing wrong with loving your boat.


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## kwaltersmi

Chuckles: Have you done any bluewater passages or long cruises in your Gemini? I'm seriously trying to determine the bluewater merits of the Gemini. I brought it up in another thread where I listed several of my favorite "affordable" bluewater boats. The opinions on the Gemini seemed mixed in regards to its' offshore ability.


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## JohnRPollard

Kwaltersmi,

The owner of Performance Cruising (builder of Gemini cats) sailed a 105Mc from the US to England. If you are seriously considering this boat for "bluewater" sailing, my suggestion would be to visit the factory in Annapolis and inspect the boats for yourself. While you're there, find the owner, look him square in the eye, and ask if he would do it again (i.e. go transatlantic in the 105Mc). Or tell him you're planning to do it yourself and ask if he'll join you as crew. Yes or no, you will have your answer.


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## camaraderie

You might also want to ask a surveyor who has looked at a few if he'd take one across an ocean.


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## thesnort

The Mahina website lists the Gemini as a bluewater boat. I've seen comments to the contrary. I think a bad crossing in any boat in the Atlantic would make you wish you had taken a plane.


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## kwaltersmi

Not that Mahina is the "end-all be-all" for determining if a boat is bluewater capable, but where do you see the Gemini listed on their site? It's not on this list: http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html#boats4cruising

My personal feeling at this point (not having been on or inspected a 105Mc) is that I would NOT choose this boat for major bluewater work. It might serve well as an island hopper in the Caribbean or an affordable liveaboard catamaran option, but I don't think it was designed or is built to my offshore standards. I'm open to persuasion. As a sidenote, I'm interested in seeing more about the TomCat 9.7, as it seems like it will be the 105Mc's closest competitor.

P.S. Why do so many of us find the "bluewater capable" discussion so intriguing?


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## thesnort

It's there at the bottom with the Catamaran list.


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## kwaltersmi

thesnort - Sure enough! I missed the dedicated catamaran category at the bottom.


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## camaraderie

From Jack Horner's review (Jack Horner being a most respected surveyor who writes for BoatU.S. )
1. The Gemini is a moderately priced modestly constructed catamaran.
2.  Because the bridge between the two hulls of the Gemini is quite low it tends to pound in short steep seas, particularly if the boat is overloaded.
3. There have been some reports of water migrating into flotation chambers of some Gemini models and going undetected due to the lack of inspection ports. In addition drains in the port side sail locker are sometimes below water when under sail resulting in the locker partially filling with water. Window leaks are another persistent problem on older boats.
3.There are polyurethane- coated plywood centerboards in each hull
Link to full review: http://www.boatus.com/jackhornor/sail/gemini.asp

OK...first, I will freely admit that I pulled these quotes out of a favorable review. Second I will say that I like the Gemini 105m and think the reason it is so popular is that it is cheap to own, and fun to sail and offers great value. The quotes I pulled out indicate why I think it is not a blue water boat. Almost any boat CAN cross an ocean with a skilled captain and a reasonable amount of luck...a bluewater boat is one that holds up well in heavy weather and provides a comfortable ride and can stand up to the LONG term beating a cruising boat will take at sea over time and doesn't require much luck.


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## thesnort

I've almost reached my 10-post quota so that I can post a link or two, so, to that end, I'll say that I wouldn't mind being on either an ETAP or Sadler because of their positive buoyancy even if holed and flooded. That would inspire some confidence in whatever weather or wave conditions you find yourself.


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## thesnort

Of course, that's part of the charm of multihulls too. There! 10 posts and now link-empowered!


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## therapy23

camaraderie said:


> From Jack Horner's review (Jack Horner being a most respected surveyor who writes for BoatU.S. )
> 1. The Gemini is a moderately priced modestly constructed catamaran.
> 2.  Because the bridge between the two hulls of the Gemini is quite low it tends to pound in short steep seas, particularly if the boat is overloaded.
> 3. There have been some reports of water migrating into flotation chambers of some Gemini models and going undetected due to the lack of inspection ports. In addition drains in the port side sail locker are sometimes below water when under sail resulting in the locker partially filling with water. Window leaks are another persistent problem on older boats.
> 3.There are polyurethane- coated plywood centerboards in each hull
> Link to full review: http://www.boatus.com/jackhornor/sail/gemini.asp
> 
> OK...first, I will freely admit that I pulled these quotes out of a favorable review. Second I will say that I like the Gemini 105m and think the reason it is so popular is that it is cheap to own, and fun to sail and *offers great value*. The quotes I pulled out indicate why I think it is not a blue water boat. Almost any boat CAN cross an ocean with a skilled captain and a reasonable amount of luck...a bluewater boat is one that holds up well in heavy weather and provides a comfortable ride and can stand up to the LONG term beating a cruising boat will take at sea over time and doesn't require much luck.


I am going to look at a Gemini in Nov. in St. Pete.
Second look - a forum member let me look at his a while back. THANK YOU!!
I would not do long crossings in it.
I think most of the issues above have been addressed.
I don't think FL, Bahamas, Carib. would be too difficult.
But I am 6'4" and am not sure I can live well in one.
I am afraid I may overload it with "stuff".
I may have to buy a real old (did I mention old) "bluewater" cat and refit. Not something I really want to do. 
Jaguar any one???


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## JohnRPollard

As for the Gemini 105Mc, it's not just the "bluewater" designation I'm having trouble with, it's also the "pocket cruiser" part. This boat has two doubles and two queens, with an interior that feels like a small apartment. Neat boats, but "pocket cruiser"???

I'd suggest opening another thread to discuss specifically the suitability of certain modest-sized cruising catamarans for ocean crossing, maybe in the new Sailboat Design and Construction forum.


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## therapy23

JohnRPollard said:


> As for the Gemini 105Mc, it's not just the "bluewater" designation I'm having trouble with, it's also the "pocket cruiser" part. This boat has two doubles and two queens, with an interior that feels like a small apartment. Neat boats, but "pocket cruiser"???
> 
> I'd suggest opening another thread to discuss specifically the suitability of certain modest-sized cruising catamarans for ocean crossing, maybe in the new Sailboat Design and Construction forum.


I agree that a pocket cruiser should not be longer than about 26ft.

I apologize for continuing the derail but I will read anything and everything about the Gemini because I have found nothing that beats it in overall value.
It ain't "blue water" material - everyone knows that.
CE cert by the builder costs extra - not standard.


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## chucklesR

Sorry, had work to do.
I've not done blue water on my Gemini - many have including two recent deliveries (by owners) to Hawaii.
There are many write ups about passages undertaken on Gemini's. Of note, the Atlantic crossing made my Tony Smith and his son Neil was 'not' in a stock Gem. Stock Gem's made for U.S. sale are NOT CE category A - they require modifications - not structural, but important none the less (enlarging cockpit drains to 2 inches each, raising the sill to the companion way, jack like attachments etc..).

I love my boat, but understand it has shortcomings. As Kanter says in his latest review, it is the best boat in it's class, and the most boat for your buck currently on the market (Cruising Catamaran Communique, Charles Kanter, 2006).
Chuckles


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## TSOJOURNER

therapy23 said:


> I agree that a pocket cruiser should not be longer than about 26ft.


I might even go lower than that; I think the 24' are at the top of the range and the 21' trailer sailors are the model I think of as the most common "pocket cruiser". I guess some people have bigger pockets (probably deeper, too). But it's a nit and the OP wants a bigger boat.


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## TSOJOURNER

Hi,
Check out the Bavaria boats. They are very comfortable for a cruising couple and ocean rated. Good value for the investment. Fast sailing too!


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## chucklesR

Pocket is relative, sailing around solo in 26 ft contesa is one thing(ala Tania Adeb (sp)), going bluewater with more than one person requires serious space and therefore a bigger pocket. I don't care how good ya'll are at face time, everyone needs space.
- USNavy standards, 1.5 square feet of standing room per enlisted man in the berthing compartments; try living with that for 6 months at a whack.


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## nwpacketeer

I don't think you can go wrong with an Island Packet, but I'm a bit prejudiced. I feel that Pacific Seacraft run a good second, if you can find one, a Fast Passage is pretty comfy, and Babas are really seaworthy.

Good luck, and hope you find something that will meet your needs.

(Much as I can say nice things about some of the newer production boats for protected waters and costal use, such as the Catalinas and Beneteaus, etc, I would steer clear of them.)


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## camaraderie

Not many people would place a Packets build quality or seaworthiness ahead of a psc!


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## TSOJOURNER

Try an old Cal. Touch old boats that are also fast.


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## sailingdog

Traditionally, pocket bluewater cruisers are usualy under 30' in length. Once you're above 30', it ain't pocket sized anymore. A possible "pocket" sized bluewater capable catamaran is the Heavenly Twins 27', which has made many ocean crossings. So has the Catalac 8m.

The major differences between the EU RCD A-rated Gemini and the US market model are the cockpit drains and a bridgedeck. Both of these are to reduce the impact of being pooped and to prevent downflooding into the main cabin in the case of being pooped. AFAIK, those are the only differences, but if not, those are the most important ones. BTW, either of those changes is relatively easy to make on a Gemini.

Given the price points of many boats, the Gemini does give you a lot of bang for the buck. Brand new, they're about $150,000 and give you a lot of living space and make a very comfortable coastal cruiser, that is capable of making the odd bluewater passage if necessary.

It really depends on what you're planning on doing. If you're planning on doing repeated circumnavigations... then you really want a dedicated bluewater boat. If you want to make the occasional passage, but aren't planning of putting 100,000 nm under the keel, then a coastal cruiser with light bluewater capabilities might be a far better choice.

One friend of mine has always told me that the "Primary use of a boat should be primary." This means, if you're generally going to be sailing as a couple, getting a three-cabin boat doesn't necessarily make any sense. If you're going to be coastal cruising 95% of the time, getting a dedicated bluewater boat doesn't make much sense either.  *Get a boat that can do what you want 95% of the time really well, and modify it so that it can handle the remaining 5%.*


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## BlowinSouth

Nobody has mentioned the Dreadnought 32, definitely a true bluewater cruiser. At 20,0000 lbs dry weight they can handle just about anything but are also pretty slow so I second what sailingdog said about it depends on how you intend to use it. I personally would rather get there safely and slowly than not at all should you get caught in a storm.


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## FancyPants

How well would a 1981 Hunter 30 hold up in blue water?


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## camaraderie

Oh geez...here we go again! (g)
Welcome FP...it is a coastal cruising boat.


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## FancyPants

atlantic crossing?


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## sailingdog

Ummm... no... not really a good choice for soooooooo many reasons. 


FancyPants said:


> How well would a 1981 Hunter 30 hold up in blue water?


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## FancyPants

I want to sail as far as possible in this boat, if ocean crossing isn't possible could I make it down around S. America, go through the panama canal, maybe make it to Hawaii.


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## sailbear50

There was mention about the OI earlier, any views on the Nelson Merek 43s o 44s that were produced by Morgan as bw cruisers?


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## kwaltersmi

Hunters have crossed oceans, but it's not the first choice of most sailors for a bluewater passagemaker, all things considered.

For a brief story about a somewhat comparable "coastal boat" that tried to sail to Hawaii, read this: http://www.equipped.com/0698rescue.htm


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## sailingfool

FancyPants said:


> How well would a 1981 Hunter 30 hold up in blue water?


Errr...no comment...seek elsewhere on this board and you shall find.


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## chucklesR

Hunter's are coastal, never take one further from shore than you can swim


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## sailingdog

Actually, the smaller Hunters are coastal... the larger ones, say over 40', you could probably take bluewater...but you'd probably take a good beating in the first storm you hit.


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## camaraderie

FP...just take it out of Charleston Harbor when it is blowing 30knots...you'll soon adjust your plans. Adjust plans to coastal and the Bahamas or adjust boats! Note....this is not a slam against Hunters...it is a statement about what this particular Hunter was designed to do.


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## kwaltersmi

sailingdog said:


> Actually, the smaller Hunters are coastal... the larger ones, say over 40', you could probably take bluewater...but you'd probably take a good beating in the first storm you hit.


That's spot on. Here's a guy taking his Hunter 49 around the world: http://www.thesailingchannel.tv/wanderlust3/2007/10/indian-ocean-south-of-indonesia-bali.html


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## TSOJOURNER

The H49 does have one heck of a interior layout
see


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## sailingdog

USP-

It does, but I bet you take a bigger beating in an ocean-borne storm in the H49, than you would on a HR40... even though the Hunter is bigger.


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## FancyPants

bummer, well no problem I love the bahamas. I'll pick up a blue water boat down there. I had a chance to get a sabre 28, i figure the response would be the same for that, or am i going to regret passing the sabre up.


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## RXBOT

*Why R U*

Talking about 49 foot hunters when the post is about pocket cruisers . 28 foot maximum (monohull) would be reasanable max I think.


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## camaraderie

The Sabre 28 is a completely different kettle of fish. Robustly built and designed for cruising. It would not be my choice in a pocket cruiser but it can and has served as a blue water boat.


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## chucklesR

Sorry, meant the Hunters in the mid sized 'pocket' range. 
I owned a 1986 HR31 and was somewhat dismayed at it's lack of robustness -when pulling out the mildew impregnated cloth headliner and staring at daylight streaming through the 1/4 inch FG outer bulkhead. Seriously, not bluewater.
Just because someone is taking a HR49 on a circumnav doesn't mean it is BW, I noted a complete lack of hold downs on Hunter's sole hatches this year at the boat show. It would take some serious mod's to be safe.


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## sailingdog

A HR49 is a very different beast than a H49... Hallberg Rassy doesn't make a coastal cruiser of any size IMHO. BTW, HR doesn't make a 49, but does make the HR48... 

As for small boats... the Tartan and Sabre 28, the Cape Dory 28/30, the Alberg 30, the Southern Cross 28/31, the Elizabethan 31 are all blue water capable boats...far more so than a Hunter 30.


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## TSOJOURNER

I've been considering a Shannon 28. Wondering what anyone knows about them. Are they fast, slow, somewhere in between?

Also, I didn't see Bristol Channel Cutters, Westsails or Cape George Cutters listed.


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## camaraderie

GB...nothing wrong with a Shannon 28 for blue water. I would classify them as slow and stable much like the others on your list...but a bit pricier!


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## JohnRPollard

GreenBoat said:


> I've been considering a Shannon 28. Wondering what anyone knows about them. Are they fast, slow, somewhere in between?
> 
> Also, I didn't see Bristol Channel Cutters, Westsails or Cape George Cutters listed.


I think nearly all of those have been mentioned either in this thread or any one of the other similar threads that are running somewhat concurrently. It's hard to keep them all straight:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37589

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37091

If you like the Shannon 28, you should compare it closely with the PSC Dana 24. Whenever someone mentions one or the other, I always suggest they compare the two since they are so similar.


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## TAK

JohnRPollard said:


> I think nearly all of those have been mentioned either in this thread or any one of the other similar threads that are running somewhat concurrently. It's hard to keep them all straight:
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37589
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37091
> 
> If you like the Shannon 28, you should compare it closely with the PSC Dana 24. Whenever someone mentions one or the other, I always suggest they compare the two since they are so similar.


?? Why the 24 and not the 27? That would seem more similar ..


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## snider

*Shannon*

I've been looking at theses three boats for awhile, the PSC 24, 27 and the Shannon 28. I really like the Shannons the best, but they are more expensive for the oldest boats of the bunch. I like the keel stepped mast and I think 28 is a good size for me.

The 27 is an older boat also but you can find some mid to upper 80 models and some sell for a better price than the Shannon. If you wait and shop around a little the price fluctuates. Whereas the Shannon's have been pretty constant and going up in price, which would make a good resale value. You just wonder how long someone is going to pay $50,000 for a boat aging over 25 years. Also financing and insurance can be tough on an old boat.

The Dana may be the best buy, newer boat at a comparable price to the others. Smaller so cheaper maintanence costs and dockage. Trailerable. You just have to be able to deal with 24 feet. If three deals of each boat popped up and I had to choose, I would be at a loss. When I buy I'll buy whichever is the best deal. There is a cheap Orion on Yachtworld at the moment I'm keeping an eye on. Good Luck


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## bubb2

sailingdog said:


> A HR49 is a very different beast than a H49... Hallberg Rassy doesn't make a coastal cruiser of any size IMHO. BTW, HR doesn't make a 49, but does make the HR48...
> 
> As for small boats... the Tartan and Sabre 28, the Cape Dory 28/30, the Alberg 30, the Southern Cross 28/31, the Elizabethan 31 are all blue water capable boats...far more so than a Hunter 30.


Dog, here an link about the HR 49 http://www.hallberg-rassy.se/hr49/hr49.shtml fyi


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## ronbo1

Though this thread is long I don't think it's been mentioned: the Gozzard 31 or 36, both well-built and holding it's value. It's closest competitors are Shannon and Cabo Rico.


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## ronbo1

Though this thread is long I don't think it's been mentioned: the Gozzard 31 or 36, well-built and holding it's value. It's closest competitors are Shannon and Cabo Rico.


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## nwarrenchuk

*what?*

First of all, I have no idea why people are talking about 31' boats and 37' boats and whatever. This is about pocket cruisers. To me, a pocket cruiser MUST be able to be pulled on a trailer by a regular vehicle without any special permit or anything (this means 8' beam or less). A pocket cruiser SHOULD be able to be launched and retrieved from a trailer without the need for a harness or marina help or anything. That is why it's called a "pocket cruiser".

However, I will stretch the list here, since finding a true pocket cruiser that is also truly bluewater is tough. A pocket cruiser is better suited, for instance, for trailering to the Pacific Northwest and cruising around the islands, or the Great Lakes, or the Keys or Bahamas, etc.

True Pocket Cruisers (Able to self launch/retrieve from a trailer)
Alberg 22/Cape Dory 22
South Coast 23/Kittiwake 23
Sea Sprite 23
Flicka 20
Nonsuch 22
maybe a ComPac 23

Larger Pocket Cruisers (Harder or impossible to launch/retrieve from a trailer. See "Twenty Small Boats..." for a good list)
Dana 24
Cape Dory 25/25D
Contessa 26
Cape Dory 27
Albin Vega 27
etc...


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## sailingdog

Under Nwarrern's criteria, he's missed a few good boats...

Most of the West Wight Potters would qualify. As would the following trimarans:

Corsair 24
Corsair 28*
Corsair 31*
Farrier F24
Farrier F27*
Telstar 26*
Telstar 28
Dragonfly 800
Dragonfly 900*
Dragonfly 1000*

* Have made trans-Atlantic and/or trans-Pacific passages.


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## ronbo1

As we often do, we forget the original questioner starting these threads.

Newbie >wcanderson> asked for advice for 30'-38' bluewater boats. 
Though he mistakenly called them pocket cruisers he's probably not interested in 20'-26' trailerables.


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## CaptKermie

"To me, a pocket cruiser MUST be able to be pulled on a trailer by a regular vehicle without any special permit or anything (this means 8’ beam or less). "

Why is 8' beam or less the the max? Most power boats max out at 8'6" of beam to be street legal in the PNW and the rest of Canada. Could it be that not all US states share the same standards? This really has a negative impact on the boat building industry because a few hold out states are not uniform with the rest of the country so builders restrict the beam enough to include the holdouts. Why don't they get with the program and go to 8'6".


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## sailingdog

CaptKermie-

Street legal widths can be as narrow as 8' in some states.


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## kwaltersmi

I can't believe we're trying to use a landlubbers regulation (street legal width/beam) to define what makes a cruising sailboat worthy of the "pocket" adjective.


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## sailingdog

I wasn't... Nwarrenchuk was... Personally, I think a pocket bluewater cruiser is any bluewater capable boat that is under 30' in LOA. I don't think it has anything to do with being trailerable, or a certain width. 

The Heavenly Twins 26 is one catamaran that has made many bluewater passages, as has the Catalac 8m. In fact most of the HT26s and Catalac 8Ms in this country crossed the Atlantic on their own power to get here. 

While I wouldn't call the Telstar 26 a proper bluewater cruiser, I know that quite a few have made bluewater passages, and the majority of the Telstar 26s in this country got here on their own. 

The Flicka, Westerly Nomad, Contessa 26, Albin Vega, Pearson Triton, West Wight Potters, Sea Sprites, Dana 24, and many other small sailboats would make fairly decent pocket cruisers and have made many a bluewater passage among their sisterships. 

However, it wasn't all that long ago that boats under 35' were very common as "cruising" boats... and the philosophy of cruising on a smaller boat is very different from that of cruising on a 40'+ boat. 

Most of the people I know cruising on smaller boats are out there to be sailing... and want to leave much of the modern "rat race" behind them. They are often tired of the rampant commercialism and materialistic conspicuous consumption that seems to be running amok in modern society. They are of the mind set of who really needs a 4000 sq. ft house to live in??? especially when it is just two people living in all of that space. They don't have a television on their boat... they didn't buy a new car every three years, and often see sailing on a smaller boat as a end in itself, rather than as a mode of transportation, which seems to be more the case with the 40'+ crowd. Larry and Lin epitomize this group and mindset... go small, go simple, go now...

I guess it all really depends on why you are out there... A good friend of mine and his better half bought a 10M boat, and since they bought it in March, have put well over 1500 miles on it, cruising the New England area. They are preparing themselves and their boat for long-term cruising. Their boat doesn't even have standing headroom AFAIK. But, as they said to me, they'd rather have her than have to put of going cruising another five years. What are your priorities...


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## Jeff_H

I agree with the two prior posters that historically there was nothing in the definition of a pocket cruiser that meant it had to be trailerable. Then again it is nice when a pocket cruiser can be trailered.

For that matter there was nothing in the term 'pocket cruiser' that meant it had to be bluewater capable. That is why the title of this thread, *Bluewater pocket cruisers* strikes me as not at all redundant.

Respectfully, 
Jeff


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## sailingdog

There are lots of pocket cruisers... but not all would qualify as bluewater capable. The Catalina 22, 25, 250, the Hunter 25, the Compac line of sailboats, the Marshall Cats, are all "pocket cruisers" but none are what I'd call bluewater capable.


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## kwaltersmi

I agree, SD. I'd venture to say that most pocket cruisers are NOT bluewater capable. At least not for my sensibilities.

However, I just spoke with a couple of people in Southern California that routinely (6x per year) sail their Hunter 24 and Catalina 25 to Santa Catalina Island. I know it's "only" a distance of 25-30 miles offshore, but the weather can get mighty nasty in that channel. All day I've been thinking in my head if I'd make that trip in those boats. I'm sure the trip is made in much lesser boats. In fact, I've made the trip in a Whaler Outrage 18 to go diving. In any case, it pays to know your boat and know your abilities.


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## sailingdog

Kwaltersmi-

I don't know if I'd consider a trip to Catalina Island bluewater... 

Bluewater IMHO generally indicates that help is not immediately available, where a Helo could generally get to someone making a trip to Catalina Island relatively easily. 

Going to Bermuda is definitely bluewater... since for a majority of the trip, getting even a helo over to you would be a matter of the better part of a day if you're lucky.


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## JohnRPollard

TAK said:


> ?? Why the 24 and not the 27? That would seem more similar ..


TAK,

Sorry, I missed your question from a few days back about why I suggested that someone interested in the Shannon 28 should compare with the PSC Dana 24, or vice versa. The answer is because these boats are extremely similar not just in hull form, but also in belowdeck layout. They both have an "open" interior with aft head. If someone finds this arrangement appealing, then the Shannon will offer "more of the same", and the Dana somewhat "less of the same". So that is the reason for my suggestion to compare them.

The PSC Orion 27, while a very nice boat in it's own way, comes with several different interior layouts, none of which are similar to the Dana or the Shannon 28. Anyone interested in the Orion 27 should note that there are Mark I and Mark II versions. The interior options are more or less the same (a bit more room in the head, though), but from the exterior the coachroof of the Mark II is extended further forward, allowing for five openning portlights per side (instead of four) and a second overhead hatch (under the boom).


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## tenuki

kwaltersmi said:


> However, I just spoke with a couple of people in Southern California that routinely (6x per year) sail their Hunter 24 and Catalina 25 to Santa Catalina Island. I know it's "only" a distance of 25-30 miles offshore, but the weather can get mighty nasty in that channel.


I know people who have sailed hobbie cats there...


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## TejasSailer

Posting late, and my appologies if someone has already posted this URL for a lot of discussion about Pocket Cruisers (I haven't read all 12 pages).

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11492


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## codmander

Rickm505 said:


> No one put a catamaran on this list? Hmmm.... I'll list a couple that can be obtained for a reasonable price used.
> 
> 1. Fontaine Pajot Tobago 35
> 2. 36' PDQ MKIII LRC
> 3. 35' Charter Cats, SA Wildcat 35 MKII (Controversial, but One just returned from a circumnavigation)
> 
> What can I say... I'm a catamaran guy.
> 
> Rick in Florida


great story!! enjoyed it threw n threw bee stings lol


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## bobmcgov

sailingdog said:


> I wasn't... Nwarrenchuk was... Personally, I think a pocket bluewater cruiser is any bluewater capable boat that is under 30' in LOA. I don't think it has anything to do with being trailerable, or a certain width.
> (snip)
> However, it wasn't all that long ago that boats under 35' were very common as "cruising" boats... and the philosophy of cruising on a smaller boat is very different from that of cruising on a 40'+ boat.
> 
> Most of the people I know cruising on smaller boats are out there to be sailing... and want to leave much of the modern "rat race" behind them. They are often tired of the rampant commercialism and materialistic conspicuous consumption that seems to be running amok in modern society. They are of the mind set of who really needs a 4000 sq. ft house to live in??? especially when it is just two people living in all of that space. They don't have a television on their boat... they didn't buy a new car every three years, and often see sailing on a smaller boat as a end in itself, rather than as a mode of transportation, which seems to be more the case with the 40'+ crowd. Larry and Lin epitomize this group and mindset... go small, go simple, go now...
> 
> I guess it all really depends on why you are out there... A good friend of mine and his better half bought a 10M boat, and since they bought it in March, have put well over 1500 miles on it, cruising the New England area. They are preparing themselves and their boat for long-term cruising. Their boat doesn't even have standing headroom AFAIK. But, as they said to me, they'd rather have her than have to put of going cruising another five years. What are your priorities...


Nice post.


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## romany123

Sadler 34,(deep keel version) filled with buoyancy and advertised as unsinkable (one lost its back end in the English channel and stayed afloat).

Great boats, thats why I have owned one for the past few years.


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