# Voyaging on TIGHT Budget $X00 per month



## barefootnavigator

I've been reading through cruising budgets here and elsewhere and am shocked by how much money people are spending on their cruising budgets. I'm setting off again in a few months with a reasonably well stocked boat and hoping to live quite well on $1,200.00 for a the full six months I plan to cruise this year. When I started my voyage last year I was penniless with a half stocked boat and found finding work here and there to be quite easy although I am sailing in US waters as my dog refuses to go to sea.

My end goal once I'm free to head offshore is a $6,000.00 per year budget. I haven't suffered at all with my limited income and actually have gained weight since setting out. My 22' boat is small and simple but safe and easy to maintain to a very high standard.

I know there will be naysayers but what I'm really looking for is positive experiences of voyaging on a budget.

Art Of Hookie | Will work for food or money.


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## davidpm

The Pardee's have a chapter on this in their book. Their formula is to figure you will spend about the same on the water as off once adjusted for the obvious things that are going to change like a car and business cloths etc.

Their main lesson was that people that spend a lot on land will spend a lot cruising and those who spend a little on land will spend a little cruising. 

IE people don't change.


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## barefootnavigator

Right now I'm living off $350 per month average but I have to say I'm living quite extravagantly. No car, phone, debt ect. I am however still refitting the boat as I will be for some time so whenever I get a windfall payday it all goes into the boat. I only add the highest quality when doing upgrades so I'm paying now but expect a very reliable boat for years to come. I also do 99% of my own maintenance so that really keeps costs down.


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## Lou452

Keep posting you have my interest. I am not sure what dollar amount is needed. This subject gets beat upon and I have not seen a clear picture just a lot of it all depends on variables. I want the one doing it to outline it so I can decide. 
I am still in the learning stage. I am day sailing and a camping out. I have been reading many books. One was about your location ! One you might want to look at (Simply Sailing) This book goes after the style of low cost live aboard. Lin and Larry Pardee touch it in a book they did with three levels of cost.
The $500 seems like the magic number that comes up all the time. My opinion is it will take more. You might go for a month on less but then you will go above later. I do not think I can live on land for $500 a month unless forced to do so. It would not be fun for me to urban style "sleep under the bridge and dumpster dive for food" county style "sleep in fields and woods poaching food. Each style is a very gray legality. 
Each person must look at what the comfort needs and level of skill challenge needs to be balanced to make sailing fun,safe and legal. 
Good day, Lou


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## bljones

You can let your kitty control your cruise, or your cruise control your kitty. I like the idea of low-budget cruising, going small and going now, living the low-wake life, and I like the fact that you are willing to follow the adventure with little in your pocket. But, let's not overstate the virtue here and risk getting reverse-elitist. Logically, if you set to sea with X number of dollars and, as you imply, will work as necessary to supplement your budget, then aren't you simply pointing out that you CAN'T cruise on the budget you set? if you could, you wouldn't be commenting on the ease of finding work.

I like the dinghy you bought, but I'm curious- if your budget is tight, why spend $600 on a dinghy when you could build a D4 for half of that? Money not spend is money you don't have to work to earn.


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## barefootnavigator

I guess the simple answer is that I prefer not to work anymore than I have to. I've done the whole work, mortgage, debt thing,no thank you. I have an aging dog who is the center of my world so I wont be crossing any oceans till she goes to that big field in the sky. As far as the dingy I don't have the knowledge tools or space to build but more importantly I've wanted a Hess dingy for 25 years and just couldn't turn it down or didn't want to. I did work two months last year and intent to do the same this year. My post is because like many the plain truth is that this can be very scary and I'm seeking positive reinforcement that I'm not insane or at least seeking other with the same mental capacity who can give me examples of what they have done abroad. To take it a step further its cold and dark out and I have nothing better to do and I love learning. This is a great place to share and learn so here I am


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## bljones

Dude, you're not insane. Just do what the budget allows and don't live like a monk. just live. money may not buy happiness, but it does buy off a crapload of stress, worry and unhappiness.
You don't have to have it all, but don't live with a self-generated constraint that may turn out to be unrealistic, simply because your ego won't let you exceed your budget...

...Because, make no mistake about it, under $500/month is TIGHT- there is no margin and no cushion. I've done it, on a boat, with a dog, and there were times when it wasn't really fun. Like pawning some of your tools to be able to buy groceries and hoping you didn't pawn ones you might need to do the job that will get you the money to get your tools back from the pawn shop- it can get a little stressing, but it is really great when it all works...and it all works most of the time.


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## barefootnavigator

I haven't pawned any tools but I sure have lost my fair share over board. The dog eats really good dog chow, I buy 250 lbs at a time and get a discount, its all natural and she loves it. I tend to shop for things on sale so if I find my favorite peanut butter on sale for example I buy half a dozen jars. We eat really well but do fish and forage for some of our food. I love being at the dock from time to time but prefer to anchor out most of my time. During July August September and October this year I think we spent $200.00 total but like I said the boat was fairly well stocked. I'm not super rigid on the budget but I really like the challenge of living simply. I'm always looking for people with the same mindset. I recently came across a couple living very well on $2,000.00 per year, Very impressive. I'm always trying to learn to be more resourceful. My days left on this earth are extremely limited and I prefer to spend them in nature not a cubicle


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## travlin-easy

My dear departed father had a saying that always come to mind in these matters "The only thing money can't buy is POVERTY! You can rent all the other stuff." Now, when I traveled down the ICW, $500 would have barely covered two weeks of gasoline cost. However, with favorable winds offshore and the ability to inlet hop down the coast, you COULD make it on $500 a month for food and a smattering of booze. 

Good Luck,

Gary


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## Lou452

As long as you ask you are not insane. I like this thread 
You can go! $500 for a month go with more or less money and time or maybe it works out just as planed It is good to set a goal just do not let it consume you. Ahab wanted only the white whale.
What I have gained as good advice is ; break it down small enough for your comfort. This could be a week at a time or three years for other folks. 
Good day, Lou


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## christian.hess

it just depends

on our trip it was pb an js and we cruised(2 men) with much less than 500

on another boat I cruised on they were spanish and loved cooking and only ate out when they wanted cold beer

if you cruise islands and hop around and stuff I remember not even opening my wallet for what felt like months...no need. we spear fished, dug clams, hooked octopus...ate potatoes and rice all sorts if way and stuffed ourselves with dry tuna and saltines we made on ocean crossings

money can be seen one of two ways a commodity or a necessity

I see it as a facilitator when you are in areas that require it

fortunately I still traveled to places where it was almost non existant and that brought hope and life into my trip like nothing else.

go NOW and make odd bits of money doing whatever hobby pleases you

I knew plenty of rich cruisers and non rich cruisers who out of fun made jewelry or clothes or bartered cigarettes for bottom work or whatever...just go and be happy

GO NOW!


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## barefootnavigator

Thanks Gary, our little outboard rarely works so we sail everywhere. I do have a Yuloh I'm working on but the mount still needs perfecting which I'm hoping to do over the next few months. I used 2 gallons of gas last year but here in the Salish sea you can sail everywhere and I often go less than 10 miles between anchorages and stay as long as its new and unique. the currents here really help if you use them to your advantage but I have to say being engine less can suck from time to time. the hardest part about the small budget is I would like to eat out more just because I enjoy that so much but its not a deal breaker and when I do get to eat out I truly appreciate it. We do sacrafice for sure.


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## christian.hess

if you are ever around central america(el salvador) dinner is on me up here in coffee mountain land...at my restaurant

peace


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## barefootnavigator

Deal!


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## capta

I suppose one could "live" on $500.00 a month and cruise, but what kind of life would it be? On my circumnavigation in the seventies, $500.00 a month was a pretty healthy cruising budget, but today, it's awfully lean.
Living from the sea is not nearly as easy as it was back then and many island groups do not allow a visiting yacht to spear fish and in some places, fish at all. We might spend EC$20.00 on a pineapple here in Bequia, and only EEC$8.00 in Vieux Fort, St. Lucia, but who wants to hang out in Vieux Fort?
What are you going to do should you have any problems, split a sail, break a halyard or sheet, anything, which will cost money to repair or replace. Not eat for 3 weeks? Most countries will not allow you to work without the proper paperwork, and working for other yachts will probably not net you much cash, unless you are very good at something most of us don't do for ourselves, and build a very good reputation.
I'm not saying it can't be done, only asking if it's not worth it to work a bit more and cruise with a bit bigger budget. It can't be a whole lot of fun, never to be able to go to the local watering hole, when invited by friends for a 5 o'clock drink, or a meal out with them, because your budget just doesn't have a few dollars leeway.


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## mad_machine

it's funny. I got into an argument at work with a girl who insisted you had to be a millionaire to circumnavigate. Anything I tried to say otherwise was met with a "********!" statement from her.. or the famous "Lies!"

I will admit, except for rent and paying for my Disco, I live pretty cheaply. Factor in Electricity, Gas, Cable, and water.. and I bet I could live on a few hundred a month as long as I could get cheap places to drop the hook or pick up a mooring


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## bljones

mad_machine said:


> I will admit, except for rent and paying for my Disco, I live pretty cheaply.


Yeah, but you can blow a crapload of money buying Gloria Gaynor and Brothers Johnson rarities. Especially on 8 track. Man, that Disco can be an expensive habit.


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## PCP

mad_machine said:


> it's funny. I got into an argument at work with a girl who insisted you had to be a millionaire to circumnavigate. Anything I tried to say otherwise was met with a "********!" statement from her.. or the famous "Lies!"
> 
> I will admit, except for rent and paying for my Disco, I live pretty cheaply. Factor in Electricity, Gas, Cable, and water.. and I bet I could live on a few hundred a month as long as I could get cheap places to drop the hook or pick up a mooring


It all depends on what you call a millionaire but it takes money to do that unless it is a non stop circumnavigation: Many thousands of dollars, more than the price of some old cruising boats around.

I do extensive cruising (about 4 months a year) and live in a boat. Living on two pensions (me and my wife) have cut our income a lot but i figured out that I could not have money and time and I choose time but with the kids yet finishing university and having that boat and house to maintain I cruise on a tight budget but you need a budget for cruising otherwise you are surviving on a boat.

Capta had already talked about maintenance costs and I would say that, with the winter parking of the boat would amount at least for about 4000 euros. Only that would amount be near the 500 USD you are talking about.

Regarding cruising, even staying out of marinas, with only rare visits to some inexpensive ports and eating a few sometimes out, spending very few diesel and sailing almost all the time I guess that I spend (me and my wife) between 1000 and 1500 euros a month.

Off course, if we stayed a lot of time on one of those rare places where the shelter is perfect and the life is good, we could make it with less, but that would not be cruising. Cruising for me is to be on the move, discovery new places and enjoying sailing and that is a lot more expensive that staying or living in the boat in one or two places.

Regards

Paulo


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## mad_machine

bljones said:


> Yeah, but you can blow a crapload of money buying Gloria Gaynor and Johnson Brothers rarities. Especially on 8 track. Man, that Disco can be an expensive habit.


touché...


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## barefootnavigator

There are two sides to every coin. I could get a job, spend my waking hours making my boss wealthy and spend my evenings reading sailnet living vicariously through others. OR I could take my little boat that suits me perfectly sail off and explore and live the life I love minus a few extravagances. I certainly don't live up to the expectations of many of the sailors I meet but I will let you in on a little secret. When Monday morning rolls around I'm sitting in my cockpit sipping piping hot coffee in the morning sun while all the guys who pitied me and my little boat over the weekend are fighting Monday morning traffic.

One of the biggest misconceptions of where I am currently sailing is that there is not enough wind to sail in the summer. I sail everywhere. The truth is that most people here simply don't have the time to sail. They get off late Friday night, motor to the islands drink themselves into a stooper and hurriedly motor home in time to be at work Monday morning so they can brag to all their friends of their sailing adventures.

Its not an easy life but it is wonderful most of the time


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## christian.hess

something happened and I lost a thoughtfull post to add to the conversation basically it said that there are STILL many places where money is not an object of desire but simply a faciliator

I know plenty of little islands where in fact MONEY was uselles...even the famed dolar or euro

why because there was no where to spend money...everytying was on a trade or barter system

when cruising islands one thing to never leave without is

cigarattes
mirrors
candy
toys for kids
and used shirts and clothes of any kind

we have traded and gifted this stuff all over the world with huge amounts of success

I mean a lobster or 2 for a used salvation army shirt?

see what Im saying...whats cheap and low budget to you is miraculous and absolutely impossible to fathom to others

so be wise and use it to your cruising advantage(while being respectful of course)

christian


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## MarkofSeaLife

barefootnavigator said:


> Its not an easy life but it is wonderful most of the time


Well, try it and see how you go. As you are starting in your own country You can always return to normal work if you need to.


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## barefootnavigator

I cut the dock lines last July and have no intention of returning


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## PCP

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Well, try it and see how you go. As you are starting in your own country You can always return to normal work if you need to.


Mark, Y I am curious and you have a big experience in what regards that: How much do you have averaged in costs for month in what regards cruising? I know that's very different, depending on locations but let's say on the Caribbean and on the Med?

Regards

Paulo


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## krisscross

There was a time I lived on land for less than $500 a month, but it was not a long period and I would not mind dumpster diving from time to time. I paid no rent (or rather I did some work in exchange for a place to stay) and commuted everywhere on my bicycle. Can it be done while living on a boat? If you are not using much fuel and like to eat fish and rice 5 times a week - that is likely doable. But if you are moving from place to place, you are bound to burn a good amount of fuel. I think $800 a month is more realistic.


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## downeast450

$500.00 a month seems a bit thin today. If the boat is sound and spares are not part of the cost you could "cruise" for that little with a spartan food budget. No 16 year old Scotch at dinner! Fuel is sometimes necessary and it can be a big expense. Without fuel costs "living aboard" as in "gunkholing" is possible in many locations. The Maine coast is ideal gunkholing in summer. 

Can you hike and camp for $500.00 a month? 30 days of meals and toilet paper. That's 90 meals, snacks and drinks. Say 100 feeds? $5.00 / feed and drink with no money for anything else? Quite lean! No ice! No Beer! Freshwater? Occasional dockage. Fees! You must take in something as liquid every day? Beer works but it is at least half your budget.

In the right locations some food can be caught or gathered. Do you like rice? I do. It would be a great plan for loosing 30 or 40 pounds in 6 months! I should consider it!

Keep us posted!

Down


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## capta

barefootnavigator said:


> When Monday morning rolls around I'm sitting in my cockpit sipping piping hot coffee in the morning sun while all the guys who pitied me and my little boat over the weekend are fighting Monday morning traffic.
> Its not an easy life but it is wonderful most of the time


Your coffee here in Bequia, bought just yesterday, was EC$38.00 or a hair over US$14.00 for 11 ounces. Just regular ground Folger's, nothing special, and I was very happy to find it.
I'm all for just getting out and doing it, but a certain level of financial where with all is important. If you spend everything each month of your budgeted money, what will you have left for emergencies? Every island we go to, there is someone stuck, because they do not have the money to repair a critical item (not air conditioning or even refrigeration; something critical). So they sit, trying to find the money, a cheaper part or something they can make do, hoping that someone will be kind, donating time and/or money (giving work), because their whole budget is taken up by survival.
By the way, last year, we motored less than 20 hours in about 3k miles, and that included a dozen or so island lees. That's not economics; that's why one has a sailboat, isn't it?


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## MarkofSeaLife

PCP said:


> Mark, Y I am curious and you have a big experience in what regards that: How much do you have averaged in costs for month in what regards cruising? I know that's very different, depending on locations but let's say on the Caribbean and on the Med?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Vastly more than this thread suggests. I have been out for 5 years.
My outgoings projected for the boat this year to upgrade and maintain is close to $15,000. $20,000 if i want a few luxuries like a new dinghy and 15hp ob.

This thread is about a guy doing very little on a very small boat in a limited area of one very cheap country with negligible spend on tourism, little or no major maintenance, and if his folks go to hospital he can catch a bus home to visit them. Just to fly home urgently from where i am now to Australia, ie book and fly next day, is $4,200! Ok we may say we never will do that, but my Mum is 87 and had 2 strokes, and when the quacks say come home i want to.

So the figure that keeps coming to mind over the 5 years and is the approximate bottom line of most cruisers in the 36 to 45 foot boat range is about $20,000 USD per year including maintenance, refitting etc, excluding air fares, marinas, extensive land travel, extensive car rentals etc, and anything that can be called a luxury.

I think thats pretty cheap, actually.

When folks talk about cruising on $500 per month they are generally talking about food cost only, and beer. Thats about right. Its everything else that shoves the price up.

Mark


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## MarkofSeaLife

Remember the OP is in a quite unique situation, his boat is 22 feet, no engine, has an outboard thats never used, a dingy he rows and his boat is fully stocked with food, and by the look of the photos is in good condition. So his expenses for his first year could well be negligible. For him a $500 budget could be luxury. He may well be able to save.


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## Andrew65

barefootnavigator said:


> Thanks Gary, our little outboard rarely works so we sail everywhere. I do have a Yuloh I'm working on but the mount still needs perfecting which I'm hoping to do over the next few months. I used 2 gallons of gas last year but here in the Salish sea you can sail everywhere and I often go less than 10 miles between anchorages and stay as long as its new and unique. the currents here really help if you use them to your advantage but I have to say being engine less can suck from time to time. the hardest part about the small budget is I would like to eat out more just because I enjoy that so much but its not a deal breaker and when I do get to eat out I truly appreciate it. We do sacrafice for sure.


Not to change the line of the thread, but you have a yuloh? How far have you come With it? I made mine last year and have found it very interesting to operate. Mine is 6m for a 8 ton boat. Saves me a heap of Money against mechanics trying to bleed me dry.


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## Lou452

barefootnavigator said:


> I cut the dock lines last July and have no intention of returning


I hope you can keep us updated from time to time. I want to know because I will need some type of real numbers and expectations. I like to use the knowledge of others. Example I tend to buy used proven boat types. 
I do not know where my stopping point will be. I would have a hard time to pin point the beginning. I am sure some would laugh at me and say I have never started. I can laugh also, I am enjoying the moment.  
peace,Lou


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## barefootnavigator

Andrew,I do have a Yuloh and love it when It works. I sailed engineless for a year and a half before I had the Yuloh. That being said I'm still experimenting with the mount and keep swinging from ball to oar lock. I d love to see pictures of your mount. The second I have it up and running I'm loosing the motor. Nothing ruins the experience of sailing quicker thatn the sound and smell of an engine.


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## barefootnavigator

Lou, I will be posting that on my blog if you peek at it here and there. Since I am completing a refit everything on my boat is new so my costs might be less than others. I'm also psycho on maintaining my boat so things last me pretty long.


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## Andrew65

barefootnavigator said:


> Andrew,I do have a Yuloh and love it when It works. I sailed engineless for a year and a half before I had the Yuloh. That being said I'm still experimenting with the mount and keep swinging from ball to oar lock. I d love to see pictures of your mount. The second I have it up and running I'm loosing the motor. Nothing ruins the experience of sailing quicker thatn the sound and smell of an engine.


I don`t get it. Why are you swing from ball to oar Lock?

The Mount I use is now a wooden Block mounted aft starboard with a wooded dole pin in it to take the sacrificial Block. The Block is about 10 inches long With drilled holes in it. The holes aren`t completely through the Block, but have way. I have the Block tied to the balancing point of the yuloh, but I think a slight blade Heavy point might work just a wee bit better. Both the pin and Block are sacrificial to save the yuloh from being chewed up.
This Winter I will Mount a galvinized pin on the aft deck to so the Block has something better to sit on, a more permanent fix. The pin is basically a stylish male part to a big barn door hingel which might just work.

I hope this gives you ideas, but will try to post some Pictures if I can figure out how. I ain`t never done it before.


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## barefootnavigator

A friend of mine uses a simple oar lock mounted on his stern and it works great on his 13k lb boat. I have been using a ball and have three holes on the Yuloh so I have three speeds. all my set ups have been clamped on for testing but I'm not sold on any yet. My taff rail is a work of art so I refuse to drill any holes till its perfect.


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## xort

"Sailing in US waters", so what is the budget for healthcare?


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## barefootnavigator

I refuse to sign up for obama care if that's what your asking, I pay cash when I need it. In the last 20 years I have spent less than 500 on health care. I prefer natural remedies. I'm sure this will bring up all sorts of what ifs. I don't believe in what if's or fear mongering. Just because I don't live beyond my means doesn't mean I don't have means.


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## Lou452

Barefoot, I just checked out your blog. I am impressed ! Your boat is so nice ! It is blue water and still small? I am just learning sailing so help if I use the wrong terms . I have looked at Marks blog and if he sees this it is ok. I think it is great. It is not close to what I could see for myself. A cost beyond my means. I will have to apply this rule to my ambitions "Its not having what you want its wanting what you have." (Sheryl Crow.) 
I now know what a yuloh is. I have a crazy plan to put oar locks on my Catalina-22 I want to make a part to drop into the winches as a oarlock. I just bought this Catalina . I have been crew on a C-22 at the local races. The boat I am on is lets say a challenge so we launch without an engine. I did a lot of skulling to and from the dock after the trailer launch We did win the summer series and I now have a pewter cup for a paper weight crew of the year, The skipper taught me a lot. I had fun but could care less about going in a circle around marks . Its a small lake but I want to see more of it.


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## barefootnavigator

I am her master and servant 
FYI... I sailed a Catalina 25 in my younger days, 10,000 miles in her and loved every second of it. The best boat is the one you own.


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## Lou452

sooner or later we all need health care. It is only a question of who pays for it. 
Lets not make this a health care debate. Lets stay on topic. Can we surfice to say Barefoot budget for health care is below what most of us might feel comfortable about.
could all of us list some kind of health care budget and please give or take $200 that way we can tell all the tales the way you want to lets go no politics.
My health care comes out in union dues. 5 % of gross pay Not all 5% goes to health care other fringes are also involved. Care cost are about $600 a month family plan if I would have to self pay. I can go three months without work and it is paid then I must go back to work. I can self pay or go without health care coverage. If I decided to go without I must wait until a Jan enrollment There goes the $500 a month cruise budget 
Good Day, Lou


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## barefootnavigator

Health care is a touchy subject and we all have our own ideas about what it is. For me I use preventive health care. I do drink and smoke in moderation but I also exercise eat right and get my sleep. I have zero stress and a positive attitude. Even on my budget the majority of the food I eat is GMO free, pesticide free and made from scratch. We can all agree that America is a very sick nation stuffed with fast food and chemical processed food. When I die I will have two pieces of paper in my medical file, my birth certificate and my death certificate. I respect everyone's personal views on health insurance but I can assure you if you take care of yourself you shouldn't need it ever, the human body is an amazing thing if you treat it right. We are all human and meant to die at some point.


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## PCP

barefootnavigator said:


> ... I do ... smoke in moderation ... I can assure you if you take care of yourself you shouldn't need it ever, the human body is an amazing thing if you treat it right. We are all human and meant to die at some point.


Yes you are absolutely right regarding the last paragraph. I would have died at the age of 23 without substantial wealth care (and I did not smoke) but it its not a big deal, just a matter of dying sooner or later. After all everybody dies. Right?

Regards

Paulo


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## travlin-easy

Having spent 15 years working in Cardio-Pulmonary medicine at Johns Hopkins and University of Maryland Hospitals, I can assure you that sailing without some sort of primary health care coverage is akin to playing Russian Roulette with a fully loaded .357 Magnum. Granted, you can walk into any Emergency Room in this nation and get your health needs taken care of, but this is definitely not quality health care by a long shot. At best you'll spend several hours sitting in a waiting room enduring a constant parade of other uninsured individuals that use the Emergency Room as a free visit to a General Practitioner. Yep, that kid with the runny nose will be taking up the doctors time, while you're sitting in the waiting room with a nearly severed finger that got caught in the anchor windlass. No worries, though - they'll eventually get to you, maybe in another 6 to 8 hours. 

When you do finally get seen, it probably will not be by a doctor at all. If you're lucky, you may get a nurse practitioner, or a PA, but if you happen to end up in a major teaching hospital, it may be an intern that has three days of practical experience in the ER, or you might end up with a first year resident that doesn't know how to determine whether or not you severed a nerve, and just cleans the wound and puts a butterfly bandage and some Bacitracin Ointment on the bandage and tells you to get this checked out by a neurosurgeon at your earliest convenience.

Of course, you could have a good, old fashioned heart attack, and think it's just indigestion from something you ate last night. Yeah, you think you're not at risk - no one ever thinks they are. Last time you had a checkup they told you that you were just fine, EKG was normal, cholesterol was low-normal, lungs sounded clear. One problem, though, Cholesterol is meaningless when it comes to cardio-vascular disease, the EKG can only tell you that you have HAD a heart attack and cannot predict one, and that last checkup may have been 10 years ago. The reason you don't get one every couple years is you cannot afford it without health coverage - it's ridiculously expensive - couple thousand bucks at the very least. So, if and when you do have that minor chest pain, don't worry about it - there's probably an Emergency Room within 50 miles or so of where you're anchored. Just call 911, an ambulance will take you on a $3,000 ride to the ER, they'll do an EKG, start an IV, maybe a cardiac catheterization, and even if everything checks out OK, you're gonna get a bill for $100,000. Yep, that's the average cost for that one night stand in the local hospital. Oh, you don't have insurance, that's fine, we'll just take you to court and take everything you have. The only way around this is to tell them you're an illegal immigrant - then you'll get free medical care anywhere you go. 

Get yourself an inexpensive policy, and they are out there. My 47-year-old son found one that is O'bamacare compliant for $175 a month.

Good luck,

Gary


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## travlin-easy

Just in case someone questions my statement about Cholesterol being meaningless, during the 15 years I worked in Cardio-Pulomonary medicine I spent a lot of time in the Operating Room, running the heart lung machin (pump/oxygenator), which is what was used to keep someone alive during bypass surgery. Most of my patients, which I often did the work ups on, had low or normal Cholesterol levels. Additionally, there's an enormous amount of evidence that shows there is no correlation between Cholesterol and cardio-vascular disease. Here's just one example that everyone should look at carefully. 




Gary


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## christian.hess

yikes when you cruise and if you are fit and mid age there is no need...if something happens there are places where breaking an arm and casting it costs pennies...

where as back in good ole usa something like 10k without insurance

did you guys read about the 20 year old kid who had an appendectomy and had a bill for 55k and reduced to 11k because he got on his dads insurance plan, he posted it on the web...and had so many international responses and national stating their own experiences

I think it was a moment of light and clarity for those soooo blind to other countries ways of life

does this not just boil your blood????

we complain down here because we dont have medicaments or pills or are missing something but we do have healthcare and an apendectomy would be free!

break a leg FREE

ned a rib mended FREE

need to have dialisis free
need to get cancer treatment well you have to wait a while in line unfortunately but the small stuff and simple operations are almost all free

need some pills pay 20% of the cost or whatever

and if you saw the news youd think we where in the jungle...riots and protests every day cause of the bad HEALTHCARE, GOV etc...


imagine if these numnnuts that protest went to the states!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ignorance is bliss they say

anywhooo

rant over

the best health insurance policy is a healthy sane lifestyle...depending in what country you live it can be done with varying degrees of success...

cruising with medevac and such is a whole nother shebag

I was under the impression that getting a scuba license and their insurance coverage included this great service but I dont remember the details anymore unfortunately

peace


----------



## Don L

travlineasy said:


> . Additionally, there's an enormous amount of evidence that shows there is no correlation between Cholesterol and cardio-vascular disease.


Since my heart attack last year I've been on the cholesterol drugs and have been looking into it. I also am starting to really doubt the cholesterol story unless you happen to be a rabbit.


----------



## okawbow

2 years ago; my wife and I cruised for 4 months from Kentucky Lake, down the Tenn-Tom to Mobile, aL, and then across to Key West, and up the East coast to northern Maine. We spent an average of $900.00 per month, on direct living/boat expenses. We had a great time. Stayed at marinas or moorings, on occasion, but anchored out mostly. We ate out at least a couple times a week, and went to museums and sight-seeing when we wanted. 

We could have saved money by avoiding marinas. In some areas; there were free dingy docks, and access to groceries and restaurants. However; sometimes a dock and shower is nice to have.


----------



## travlin-easy

Don, I've had two heart attacks, and because of my background in this area, I knew exactly what was happening and had my wife drive me to the hospital, which was a 5 minute trip. Now, some folks think I should have called 911, which at 10 a.m. on a Sunday morning out in the sticks where I live, would have meant 30 minutes or longer before the EMTs would have arrived, and then some kid that knows nothing about cardio-vascular disease would ask me a bunch of stupid questions, while his bumbling hillbilly, wanna-be doctor muddled his way through starting an IV. I've all too often seen the results of the volunteer FD kids and don't want any part of it. 

Now, damned near every cardiologist I know has been brainwashed by the drug companies into believing that lowering your Cholesterol will save your life - what a crock! In fact, there are currently thousands of people on dialysis machines because of taking statins, and of course, there are a bunch of lawyers trying to get rich on this bad drug scheme as well. Both cardiologist I've used prescribed simvastatins for me, and I told them both that I will not take them for a number of reasons, including the fact that I'm highly allergic to them, something they obviously either ignored or overlooked on my chart. And, when I told them there was no correlation between cardio-vascular disease and cholesterol, they both said "There are studies that show that lowering your cholesterol will increase longevity." When I replied "Show me one!" They couldn't - mainly because there are no such studies, and when one doctor said take a look at such and such study, I did. The next time I visited him I pointed out that the study made no such conclusions and I brought a printed copy of the study with me at the time. He no longer insists I do something about my cholesterol, which currently is 217. Ironically, two decades ago, 217 was considered normal. And my mother in law, who lived to the ripe old age of 97, had a cholesterol of 330 for most of her adult life. Every one of her doctors tried to put her on cholesterol lowering drugs, and she would drop the prescription in the trash can out her way out the door of the doctor's office. She was a great lady.

Good Luck,

Gary


----------



## safira

very good thread .... i live on about 150.00 when offshore


----------



## Torch

NOTE: I post this from a budgeting perspective, not a political one. Please avoid derailing the thread and stick to budget considerations. Thanks. 

Due to the ACA individual mandate, in the US you need to add to your budget 1% of your income or $95/adult/year (2014, whichever is greater) for medical insurance. This is the price of the tax for those that elect to not have coverage. This goes up to $695/adult or 2.5% of your income beginning in 2016 (whichever is greater).

I'm not sure how being out of the country affects the tax due.

Electing to not have coverage is no longer an option in the US without paying a penalty.


----------



## xort

barefootnavigator said:


> I refuse to sign up for obama care if that's what your asking, I pay cash when I need it. In the last 20 years I have spent less than 500 on health care. I prefer natural remedies. I'm sure this will bring up all sorts of what ifs. I don't believe in what if's or fear mongering. Just because I don't live beyond my means doesn't mean I don't have means.


Easy to say now. But if some accident should befall you whilein the USA...

health care is a real cost. How people choose to pay, or not, speaks volumes


----------



## barefootnavigator

I absolutely agree with you and that's why I refuse Obama care, it will be the down fall of our financial system. Everyone will suffer from this criminal care system.


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

I thought it was interesting when a Yuloh was mentioned. I haven't heard of it before so I looked it up. It's an interesting way to get around. I can see why it would be a good option for going without an engine. You won't have to spend more on fuel. From a couple videos I saw online, they can get a boat going at a pretty reasonable speed.

Looks like a nice way to stay as close to $500 or less budget.


----------



## PCP

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> I thought it was interesting when a Yuloh was mentioned. I haven't heard of it before so I looked it up. It's an interesting way to get around. I can see why it would be a good option for going without an engine. You won't have to spend more on fuel. From a couple videos I saw online, they can get a boat going at a pretty reasonable speed.


I did not either and your post took it to my attention I googled and...ho, its that? That's what fishermen always used here to go on the "tenders" to the bigger fishing boats.

regards

Paulo


----------



## barefootnavigator

PCP That would make sense because my boat was designed along the lines of the Bristol Channel fishing and pilot boats that operated under sail before the days of engines


----------



## MikeOReilly

I don't know if $500/month is doable, but I'm going to find out later this year when we finally cut the lines and move on board full time. My wife and I leave with a well-found modest boat, a small kitty, and no guaranteed income. I've been self-employed for 20 years, so expect to keep working as we move along, but our main strategy will be to stay away from marinas, and other places where you can spend money. 

With regard to healthcare costs, it's an interesting question. As Canadians, we've never really had to deal with it. My understudying is that quality healthcare services are available at reasonable costs just about everywhere in the world except the USA. It will likely mean we'll go with some minimal evac policy, and generally race through this fine country as fast as possible. 

I love the Yuloh idea. Does anyone know of the reasonable size maximum for this idea? I suspect our boat (37-foot/14 tons) would be too big.


----------



## christian.hess

Torch said:


> NOTE: I post this from a budgeting perspective, not a political one. Please avoid derailing the thread and stick to budget considerations. Thanks.
> 
> Due to the ACA individual mandate, in the US you need to add to your budget 1% of your income or $95/adult/year (2014, whichever is greater) for medical insurance. This is the price of the tax for those that elect to not have coverage. This goes up to $695/adult or 2.5% of your income beginning in 2016 (whichever is greater).
> 
> I'm not sure how being out of the country affects the tax due.
> 
> Electing to not have coverage is no longer an option in the US without paying a penalty.


could you explain this to me?

say you want to go cruising and are leaving miami for a long cruise 1-5 years....

are you saying you would have to pay insurance? and how so? if you are not even there

sorry Im lost there and I dont see how you could be forced to have coverage when you are not even there

anywhoo

hope that is not the case

ps. there are plenty of coverages available from companies around the world offering services but I dont think they are a viable option versus a healthy lifestyle...

I have been to many countris considered dirt poor and even in those places somewhere there would be a doctor or somebedy to fix you up...

On the spanish boat I travelled on my captain was a doctor...his life motto at the time was to spread the love by fixing teeth, pain, any sort of disease he encountered on the atolls, reefs, islands and ports we entered...

I think he paid forward and thats what counts


----------



## barefootnavigator

We had a guy in Bellingham who had an engineless full keel 50' LOA 30,000lb boat. He used it constantly and in 13 years never hit a thing.


----------



## christian.hess

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> I thought it was interesting when a Yuloh was mentioned. I haven't heard of it before so I looked it up. It's an interesting way to get around. I can see why it would be a good option for going without an engine. You won't have to spend more on fuel. From a couple videos I saw online, they can get a boat going at a pretty reasonable speed.
> 
> Looks like a nice way to stay as close to $500 or less budget.


there was a pearson triton in berkeley marina that used oars and also a yuloh on the stern...

for the oars he just stood up in the cockpit right behind the companionway...the oars where at least 10 feet or more each and wood...he just rowed upright like if on a dinghy....

it was my dream boat at the time and he did exactly what I wanted to do I was in a folkboat at the time and had no standing headroom so to ME that was the life right there!!!!!

he could do 3 or 4 knots on the oars leaving the harbor in flat water...

not bad

anwyhoo

plenty of ways to save money I guess

on my current boat I have completely and terminantly refused to use JERRY CANS.

I will always have fuel to enter and exit port and thats that, everything after being in safe open water will be sail related...no wind, plenty of things to do like sew sails, cook, read books....etc...

one thing I hated about cruising on other peoples boats and my boat with a diesel was the weird concept of strapping dangerous flammable crap all over your decks like and idiot, not to mention the absolute hassle of loading and unloading from a dinghy, or taxi cab or walking around unknown places looking for fuel like it was gold!uke

JUST IN CASE they said

now that I think about it I cringe

what stupidity

ON A SAILBOAT


----------



## mad_machine

I can't say in the US as we have not gotten that far yet, but I can mention what a friend of mine went through when moving here from Germany. As you know Germany has some of the best socialized medicine in the world (they also have a tax on Catholics, but that is a different story) and when my Friend moved here from there, he had to fill out quite a few forms explaining that he was moving out of the country for long term or permanently. 

This was the only way he was able to get out of paying into the medical care fund in Germany


----------



## MikeOReilly

barefootnavigator said:


> We had a guy in Bellingham who had an engineless full keel 50' LOA 30,000lb boat. He used it constantly and in 13 years never hit a thing.


What did he use? Yuloh? Oars? Poles? Love to hear any details you have.

hristian.hess: thanks for that example. I'm not sure how we would rig functional oars on our boat, but I'm going to think about it. What did your fellow use for oar locks?


----------



## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> What did he use? Yuloh? Oars? Poles? Love to hear any details you have.
> 
> hristian.hess: thanks for that example. I'm not sure how we would rig functional oars on our boat, but I'm going to think about it. What did your fellow use for oar locks?


I think he didnt

I think but not 100 percent sure that he had some sort of straps attached to the main winches...easy as pie...

he just strapped the oars and looped them on the winches...maybe a pad to keep friction down would help but Im almost certain he didnt have traditional locks its was back in 2006 or so

it was a blue triton and the owner were very free flowing relaxed(trying to not say hippie here) sailors and always would oar out...I was on my boat a lot so I always admired their boat...my boat was on a dock end so I saw the whole backing out process...

honestly he made it look easy

rudder was tied and he used the oars to steer

cheers


----------



## Andrew65

Man,this thread is right up my alle. 2 kidney stones with 3 days in the hospital cost me 65usd here in norway. The same thing cost my brother something like 5000usd in the states, gotta love sociaized medicine. 
In regards to the yuloh,l'll write you what l found out later since l'm doing this from my phone. 1.5 years research, building, and experimenting gave me great results for 300usd. It works really well if it's what you want and fits your style of boat.

Andrew


----------



## MikeOReilly

Andrew65 said:


> Man,this thread is right up my alle. 2 kidney stones with 3 days in the hospital cost me 65usd here in norway. The same thing cost my brother something like 5000usd in the states, gotta love sociaized medicine.
> In regards to the yuloh,l'll write you what l found out later since l'm doing this from my phone. 1.5 years research, building, and experimenting gave me great results for 300usd. It works really well if it's what you want and fits your style of boat.


Love to see your info Andrew. And +1 on socialized medicine. I'm always astounded to hear the amount of money my American friends have to pay out every month for health insurance. If I had to do this there'd be no way I could afford the lifestyle I have (which is already very modest).


----------



## travlin-easy

I spent an hour in a tiny exam room today, waiting for a doctor that overbooked so he could rake in more money to put his daughters through medical school. I have a rule, one hour waiting time - that's it! Anything beyond that and I leave. I was getting up and putting my coat on when the doctor came in. I have a bone spur, one that's in a nasty place on my knee. He recommended physical therapy, wrote a prescription for the therapy, spent nearly two minutes with me, and the charge was $260. Good payday for him, especially considering he probably saw 20 patients that day. I'll probably have to shell out about $100 of that charge. What really pisses me off is I could have went to work today, made $250 and put the money towards my cruising kitty. 

Gary


----------



## blowinstink

How much a day are y'all allocating for food? What is on the menu at your budget point?


----------



## christian.hess

tuna in all shapes and forms are the easiest to catch, next mahi or dorado like we call them down here then after that wahoo and shark

this is in most medium to warm ocean waters

now if you dont eat fish you are really incrementing your budget food wise by at least 30 percent because we combined fish with staples like rice, potatoes and any starch like pasta

if your interested in menus both on land on on boat Id be happy to help

christian

ps. usually unless you eat out and live in a marina its really har d to say per day $$$

there was a post who said $150 a month OFFSHORE for everything is pretty damn close to what we spent...

so figure 100 or so for food and 25 for fuel and another 25 whatever

this is crossing ocean budgets...now stick to shore all the time and EVERYTHING GOES up

hence why I like being at sea more than close to shore

cheers


----------



## Markwesti

Socialized Med ? It's already here in the good ol USA . MS. Westi and I used to pay $700.00 per mo. /5500. deduct. Now we have new a policy , and I'm not kidding the premium is $2.00 per mo/6500. deduct. You would think I would be jumping for joy and running to the chandelier for goodies ! But no I 'm afraid . This money has to come from some where . And now it's not coming from me . I say if it's to good to be true , well you know..... Single payer Med is on the way , just like Canada . W/ taxes skyhigh.


----------



## blowinstink

christian.hess said:


> tuna in all shapes and forms are the easiest to catch, next mahi or dorado like we call them down here then after that wahoo and shark
> 
> this is in most medium to warm ocean waters
> 
> now if you dont eat fish you are really incrementing your budget food wise by at least 30 percent because we combined fish with staples like rice, potatoes and any starch like pasta
> 
> so figure 100 or so for food and 25 for fuel and another 25 whatever
> 
> hence why I like being at sea more than close to shore
> 
> cheers


So, you are allocating @$3.30/ day US for "food" including fishing tackle / equipment and the other food items necessary to sustain you. Do you really catch enough fish to rely upon? Do you need refridgeration / freezers to make that work? I don't know how much you spent on tackle and equipment to keep fish on the table 3 meals a day, but what else do you eat / drink with it and at what cost?

I'm not really interested in living this way myself, but I am sure I am not the only one who is interested in how it is accomplished.

BS


----------



## MikeOReilly

Markwesti said:


> Socialized Med ? It's already here in the good ol USA . MS. Westi and I used to pay $700.00 per mo. /5500. deduct. Now we have new a policy , and I'm not kidding the premium is $2.00 per mo/6500. deduct. You would think I would be jumping for joy and running to the chandelier for goodies ! But no I 'm afraid . This money has to come from some where . And now it's not coming from me . I say if it's to good to be true , well you know..... Single payer Med is on the way , just like Canada . W/ taxes skyhigh.


"Taxes are the price we pay for civilization."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

And yes christian.hess, I would love more details. I hate to fish, but love eating fish. What fishing techniques/tools do you use? How do you preserve the excess fish? Love to hear more.


----------



## Sal Paradise

For anyone outside the U.S. wondering what hot button this hits lets use our us translator

h= g
e =u
a =n
l = c
t = o
h= n
c = t
a = r
r = o
e = l

What do these two even have to do with each other? Simple - Huge corporate and government money. 

Which is almost as ludicrous as the idea of rowing a 50,000 lb boat with a single oar. Probably looks like it works until anything is against you. 

And I'm sorry but -$500/ month? You will work harder making that work than you would at a paying job.


----------



## newhaul

I live on less than 500 per month 220 marina 30 for phone 40 for busses and ferry's and get 187 for food per month limited income and I have free healthcare paid with 8 years in military active duty service. For oarlock ideas 
WWW. solopublications.com/sailario.htm. sorry can't cut and paste on this tablet


----------



## christian.hess

blowinstink said:


> So, you are allocating @$3.30/ day US for "food" including fishing tackle / equipment and the other food items necessary to sustain you. Do you really catch enough fish to rely upon? Do you need refridgeration / freezers to make that work? I don't know how much you spent on tackle and equipment to keep fish on the table 3 meals a day, but what else do you eat / drink with it and at what cost?
> 
> I'm not really interested in living this way myself, but I am sure I am not the only one who is interested in how it is accomplished.
> 
> BS


think about it...you provision at any port hopfeully cheap before leaving for say a month to 3 month island hopping cruise...

so you stock on a sack of rice, a sack of potatoes and any other carb...starch

then hell yeah...fishinh poles are cheap as hell used...you buy some lures...use 25 lb line or 50lb....a reall or a plastic loop works well too

you bungee it and toss it anytime you will be sailing for more than a couple of hours on a tack

and the reality is yes...fish is your main protein...its obvious....we even dried fish when crosiing the pacific...the spanish call it MOJAMA its dry cured red tuna...its a delicacy when boat at your favourite deli

other meats and proteins we used were

spam
corned beef(think hash, spaghuetti, bolognese...quick stews)
dried fish
we even tried preserving sausages in yemen but that did not work jajaja
canned chicken is awesome to mix into salads and pastas or just on fresh baked bread we made

the list goes on!

anywhoo

3.30 a day for food for one person even 2 when offhore sounds reasonable to me but again I stress it can be easy to get into the whole provision for doomsday theories and I knew plenty fo cruisers who thought this way POPCORN included

anywhoo

I sold the boat with some of this stuff still there...Id rather eat fish from the sea that nature provides you rather than mommas biscotti day after day...jajaja

cheers


----------



## christian.hess

Sal Paradise said:


> For anyone outside the U.S. wondering what hot button this hits lets use our us translator
> 
> h= g
> e =u
> a =n
> l = c
> t = o
> h= n
> c = t
> a = r
> r = o
> e = l
> 
> What do these two even have to do with each other? Simple - Huge corporate and government money.
> 
> Which is almost as ludicrous as the idea of rowing a 50,000 lb boat with a single oar. Probably looks like it works until anything is against you.
> 
> And I'm sorry but -$500/ month? You will work harder making that work than you would at a paying job.


absolutely untrue...get out of the whole you need x amount to live theories and you will see what some of use are talking about



first thing is liberate yourself from debt

for me for example I would never ever ever ever ever ever cruise on a boat that wasnt completely paid for and in my name

but I knew plenty who set off owing 50k on a boat loan, paid FULL insurance that cost 1000 a month and that made them happy

so it really is about what X is for you to cruise with if X is 1500 a month from social security make it work for you

if you can only afford 100 month make it work too

too many people never leave the dock or marina or anchorage cause they read about BUDGETS and cruising budgets...I did it and it scared me away too long, and wasted too many precious years...you must leave first...then deal with stuff as it comes your way...for else you will always be overthinking all the petty stuff


----------



## ericb760

Entertaining and informative thread. I make $65,000 a year and living in SoCal I'm barely hanging on, what with a $1200 apartment and $1500 child support payment. I've been contemplating moving onboard for the next year. My marina will charge me $300, up $85 for live-aboard. My healthcare runs $27.00 a month through the VA. One thing I know for certain is that many live-aboards in my marina are living at, or below, this magical $500 a month mark. Granted, they are not "cruising" per se, but they are "living". It's safe to say that many that are doing it are not slaves to internet forums as most of us seem to be. Heck, half the people I know in my marina don't even own a computer, let alone a TV. Therein lies my dilemma, what to do with my "stuff". A 50" flat screen and a side-by-side fridge ain't gonna fit on a 24... I'd really like to sail the Baja-Ha-Ha this year or next. Decisions, decisions...For what it's worth, OP, it sounds like you are fully prepared to do what you have set out to do. No doubt there will be lean times. But, barring anything catastrophic, it sounds perfectly doable to me. Good luck....Eric


----------



## newhaul

Apartment 1200 a month storage unit in long beach ten by twenty for stuff 183 per month plus insurance at about 25 a month 208 plus taxes assume 230 with tax so 1200 minus 230=970 savings that will pay for a really good cruise to mexico on your boat.


----------



## barefootnavigator

I don't think I'm the only person here who thinks that this topic is really exciting and informative. Thank you all and please keep it coming. Over This past year when we were cruising first with no money at all and then a little bit we ate very well. We made huge stews every night filled with what ever we could find to put in them. We eat a lot of rice and cabbage which we love. I surely ate over a hundred Dungeness crabs I cant imagine how much fresh halibut and Salmon and I found bartering for things like farm fresh beets spinach and garlic to be quite easy. I picked dozens of buckets of fresh berry's made nettle salads and experimented with all flavors of foraged plants from I book I found printed in 1970. I didn't start this trip so I could eat steak in a bar and slam a bottle of tequila every night. We did leave with 8 cases of cheap wine on the boat and another case of top notch wine to share with others, I smoke hand rolled cigarettes made with a special blend of naturally dried herbs and no I'm not talking about mary jane  We had quite a few boring food days but it never mattered because there were so many amazing things to do and if you think we were begging for handouts from all the big mega yachts guess again, they were popping by to see us and share our wine and join in on the music we played every night. If you don't think you can live well on a budget of 500.00 you have a lot to learn about life. If you can teach me to live even better on this budget I have a bottle of wine and my Ukulele waiting, I'm all ears That being said I say cheers to everyone regardless of their budget.


----------



## Don L

I find it hard to believe anyone with a computer is really living on $500/mo in the US unless you are a student living with your parents!

There there is the whole difference between living and just being alive.


----------



## christian.hess

ericb760 said:


> Entertaining and informative thread. I make $65,000 a year and living in SoCal I'm barely hanging on, what with a $1200 apartment and $1500 child support payment. I've been contemplating moving onboard for the next year. My marina will charge me $300, up $85 for live-aboard. My healthcare runs $27.00 a month through the VA. One thing I know for certain is that many live-aboards in my marina are living at, or below, this magical $500 a month mark. Granted, they are not "cruising" per se, but they are "living". It's safe to say that many that are doing it are not slaves to internet forums as most of us seem to be. Heck, half the people I know in my marina don't even own a computer, let alone a TV. Therein lies my dilemma, what to do with my "stuff". A 50" flat screen and a side-by-side fridge ain't gonna fit on a 24... I'd really like to sail the Baja-Ha-Ha this year or next. Decisions, decisions...For what it's worth, OP, it sounds like you are fully prepared to do what you have set out to do. No doubt there will be lean times. But, barring anything catastrophic, it sounds perfectly doable to me. Good luck....Eric


I feel for you man...to me 65k steady income is absolutely RICH, especially down here but I see you have stuff and child support, thats a tough one
but I can say that stuff is easy to get rid of

just dont expect much cash for it these days as down here for example we live credit card to credit card and people with 15k incomes a year have over 30k debt and think this is normal

having said that its a disease known as consumerism and basically there is nothing the states has that we dont already have or want to have, and if we dont have it we buy it and ship it down...

cars, flatscreens whatever

hence why I want to cruise the hell away from here and most "cities"

peace


----------



## christian.hess

barefoot! share the recipes

I forgot to add that a pressure cooker is an absolute must have on any voyaging boat

at least for the euro and latin american way of cooking...

bean stew, meat stews, quick tuna pasta or rice, whatever...we used almost every day unless we had leftovers, and at costco or pricemart you combine this with a vacumm sealer for less than $100 and you got yourself what people in the middle ages would of created wars over...

you can dry cure stuff and vaccum seal and leave it in cabinets and storage and not worry about it till you are hungry

jerky meats, dried tuna, chorizo, serrano ham, all the good stuff, perfect to cheer you up mid ocean!

I remember my captain in the middle iof the pacific all of a sudden said screw it im doing paella! and bam, all he good stuff started coming out of the "closets" and maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan pair that with a warm beer(no refrigeration for beer) and it was HEAVEN

so it can be done guys

smooth sailing
christian


----------



## christian.hess

barefootnavigator said:


> I don't think I'm the only person here who thinks that this topic is really exciting and informative. Thank you all and please keep it coming. Over This past year when we were cruising first with no money at all and then a little bit we ate very well. We made huge stews every night filled with what ever we could find to put in them. We eat a lot of rice and cabbage which we love. I surely ate over a hundred Dungeness crabs I cant imagine how much fresh halibut and Salmon and I found bartering for things like farm fresh beets spinach and garlic to be quite easy. I picked dozens of buckets of fresh berry's made nettle salads and experimented with all flavors of foraged plants from I book I found printed in 1970. I didn't start this trip so I could eat steak in a bar and slam a bottle of tequila every night. We did leave with 8 cases of cheap wine on the boat and another case of top notch wine to share with others, I smoke hand rolled cigarettes made with a special blend of naturally dried herbs and no I'm not talking about mary jane  We had quite a few boring food days but it never mattered because there were so many amazing things to do and if you think we were begging for handouts from all the big mega yachts guess again, they were popping by to see us and share our wine and join in on the music we played every night. If you don't think you can live well on a budget of 500.00 you have a lot to learn about life. If you can teach me to live even better on this budget I have a bottle of wine and my Ukulele waiting, I'm all ears That being said I say cheers to everyone regardless of their budget.


do you have a pressure cooker? a small one?

this will save you tons of propane or whatever fuel to cook you are using

you can send my bottle of wine to

cuidad merliot, la libertad
el salvador, CA


----------



## mad_machine

it's scary what you spend just to "live" in a place on solid ground.

adding it all up:

Rent: 995/month
Car Payment: 300/month
Fuel for car: 250/month
Insurance for car: 125/month
Electricity: 85/moth
Natural Gas: 75/month



That's just so I can have a place to hang my hat and get back and forth to work. Food and any sort of "luxuries" like cable/internet and cell phone just add a few hundred more


----------



## Torch

barefootnavigator said:


> I picked dozens of buckets of fresh berry's made nettle salads and experimented with all flavors of foraged plants from I book I found printed in 1970.


Last year I went on a foraging walk through the Sussex countryside with a local foraging expert. I really enjoyed the quality of the vittles that we found but must admit that the nettle made my hands sting for hours! How do you avoid that? Gloves, or do you have a secret?

Also, I just recently bought a 6 quart Presto pressure cooker that Amazon had a lightning deal on. I just used it for the first time on some dried pinto beans (that I soaked overnight first). I cooked them for 13 minutes and if anything they were over cooked! This thing is very cool, it is our grand parents' microwave.


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## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> ...you can dry cure stuff and vaccum seal and leave it in cabinets and storage and not worry about it till you are hungry
> 
> jerky meats, dried tuna, chorizo, serrano ham, all the good stuff, perfect to cheer you up mid ocean!


Christian, I'm interested in your experience with drying foods underway. I'm well used to drying all sorts of foods for our extended wilderness canoe/kayak trips. I've carried on bring dried food onto our sailboat for our longer trips, but I've never dried anything on board, under way. How do you do it?

BTW, +1 for the pressure cooker. We've have one for a few years now, and use it on land and on the water.


----------



## christian.hess

Torch said:


> Last year I went on a foraging walk through the Sussex countryside with a local foraging expert. I really enjoyed the quality of the vittles that we found but must admit that the nettle made my hands sting for hours! How do you avoid that? Gloves, or do you have a secret?
> 
> Also, I just recently bought a 6 quart Presto pressure cooker that Amazon had a lightning deal on. I just it for the first time on some dried pinto beans (that I soaked overnight first). I cooked them for 13 minutes and if anything they were over cooked! This thing is very cool, it is our grand parents' microwave.


seee!

wheres my wine? jajaja barefoot?


----------



## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> Christian, I'm interested in your experience with drying foods underway. I'm well used to drying all sorts of foods for our extended wilderness canoe/kayak trips. I've carried on bring dried food onto our sailboat for our longer trips, but I've never dried anything on board, under way. How do you do it?
> 
> BTW, +1 for the pressure cooker. We've have one for a few years now, and use it on land and on the water.


ok here goes:

for any tuna(not any fish)

get a bucket
catch tuna using a red and white squid lure...they are the best(cheaper too)
fillet big loins of tuna...just the loins
cut tuna so it sits on a plank of wood ontop of the bottom of bucket, bamboo steamer works well here
pour about 5lbs or so of salt over the tuna
press lightly the first 12 hours then really press down the next 12....if extra JUICE comes out and its all mushy you must drain or make a spigot for the bucket
after this throroughly clean the tunas surface...but dont take off all the salt...
sprinkle a smidge of dry paprika or any sort of herb you like in spain its only paprika and a smidge of pepper and the salt
this creates the crust that seals off from contamination
BUY CHEESECLOTH
wrap tuna loin in 2 layers of cheesecloth and hang in aft locker or a place with nice SEABREEZE the forward hatch on your boat is a good place or aft locker with a hatch to funnel in the wind

its the seabreeze that cures the meat as its DRY and salty....check periodically and put a little container to catch any juice below you should not see much

it will smell salty *not too fishy* youll get used to it, after all you smell seagull poop all day at most marinas...so

it takes 1-2 weeks to cure so do it while on a long ocean cruise, say galapagos to french polynesia...

then after that seal in vaccum sealer and use when needed...you cut it like salami

and its awesome with saltines or crackers...it will last months ambient temp...or sealed up and its better than most smoked fish or salmon you get at the store...

you can do the same with fruits but its harder to do on a boat....


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## kwaltersmi

I think $500 a month on a paid for boat in good condition is doable for a single person, pending your cruising grounds. However, add a another crew member and/or family (kids) and things get much more expensive. 

When our kitty and self-employment income is large enough to cruise permanently, I'm hoping that cruising teaches my kids the true value of a dollar, the rudimentary origins of the foods we eat, and the importance of society/culture to our planet. 

Oh, and I also want them to experience tiny palm covered islands thriving in the trade winds.


----------



## newhaul

As good book to read for living on the cheap while crusing from neumeyer titled sailing the farm search for it I found a download free on a forum site a couple years ago Google sail farm lots of good information


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## krisscross

Has anyone tried cooking with solar oven on board? Cooking fuel is expensive as well.
I would imagine that using a solar oven with a pressure cooker inside should work on board but I have never tried it yet.


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## jrd22

I love hearing about young people following their instincts and dreams and making things happen whether they have any money or not. I believe that everyone should go through a period in their lives where they are on the edge of poverty (and I don't mean between checks from Mom and Dad) where they have serious thoughts about where their next meal is going to come from. It builds character and self reliance. Go for it Barefoot, enjoy the heck out of what you are doing now, I just hope because of your chosen life style that you are not collecting food stamps, welfare, etc to "finance" it?

Question: it's tough enough catching salmon and halibut (very short season) around here with expensive downriggers, trolling motors, tackle, etc, so how are you catching so much? (serious question, I do a lot of fishing and maybe I'm doing it all wrong)


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## barefootnavigator

JRD 22 I wonder if we are neighbors? I just lit a fire and am sipping coffee looking across Fish Bay and the San Jaun channel. Fishing is a very interesting thing so many people just throw a jig and hope for the best. I have never tried or caught a Salmon but I barter and am given Salmon weekly. Halibut is easy find a nice sandy beach on an incoming tide, I use root beer colored fish tails. I have a 6' kunan casting rod with a Diawa millionaire reel, I can huck that thing about 50 yards and just bounce it along the bottom. There had been tuna talk here and I'm going to have to try the red squid. I always use home made blue and while spray painted jigs. the thing about Tuna I have noticed is that they only bite in 68 degree water so if you cant find a warm current don.t waste your time. So back to Salmon, I would suggest hanging around the docks in the late afternoon when the fisherman come in, carry a six pack of cold beer and complement the guys with the big kings on their boat, share a cold beer and they will tell you all you need to know. In my younger days when I couldn't afford my own boat I could afford a six pack of beer. I used this same tactic every Friday night coming the marina and meeting new people and getting offers to sail every weekend. Here is an example of a day in the life of living off 500 per month while sailing through paradise.
onion | Search Results | Art Of Hookie


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## MikeOReilly

newhaul said:


> As good book to read for living on the cheap while crusing from neumeyer titled sailing the farm search for it I found a download free on a forum site a couple years ago Google sail farm lots of good information


Yup, good book. Some of it is a bit dated. It was published in 1981, but seems to reference the author's sailing days in the early-1970s. Still, lots of good info for those willing to go the self-reliant route.

BTW, I was able to purchase a copy a few years go (Amazon I think). You can find it online as well, but try and buy first. Neumeryer may still be collecting royalties.



christian.hess said:


> ok here goes:
> 
> for any tuna(not any fish)
> 
> get a bucket
> catch tuna using a red and white squid lure...they are the best(cheaper too)
> fillet big loins of tuna...just the loins
> ...


Thanks Christian. I hope to give it a try one day (not much tuna up here on the Great Lakes). What about drying basic fruits and veggies underway? Easy to do in my home drier, and as per Sailing the Farm's suggestions, I'm building a passive solar dehydrator out of sunbrella right now.

One idea I have for keeping cruising costs low is to try and buy large quantities of fruits and veggies in-season when they are hopefully cheaper. I envision setting up in a marina for a week every six months, buy and dry, and then get the heck out again. Anyone try any version of this strategy?


----------



## capta

krisscross said:


> Has anyone tried cooking with solar oven on board? Cooking fuel is expensive as well.
> I would imagine that using a solar oven with a pressure cooker inside should work on board but I have never tried it yet.


We actually have a microwave pressure cooker, another time and effort saving tool. It's readily available at the big retail outlets and it works well as a steamer too. Does one pot rice and ? dishes like a champ.
I've used a stove top pressure cooker since 1972; it's just layers of veges, meat/fish (if desired) and rice. Add seasoning and seal it up and leave it alone to do the work. I particularly like the sealed top for normal offshore and even heavy weather, cooking.


----------



## ccriders

I have enjoyed reading the thread. It's like simplicity meets yatching. Yet another form of cognitive dissonance.
While I cannot share real world experiences of cruising budgets, I would like to make a comparison. There is a sistership of yours in a slip just down the pier from me. She was put in the water in 2006 with the mast unstepped and has sat there with no one ever visiting her. The only living creatures aboard are on the hull's bottom. She has a couple of turn buckles hanging in the water and are now the size of footballs. Her slip costs about $200 a month, so someone has paid over $16,000 to neglect a really nice boat.
How this translates to cruising on a $500 a month budget, I don't know, but given that you have cast off the lubbers line and are not looking back, then you know it can be done. And besides, no one says you have to do this and only this, forever. If your money only lasts for part of the cruise, then plans change. I think you live in a place where minimalist cruising can be very enjoyable - lots of anchorages, good forraging, great hiking, etc. 
be sure to take your backpack and tent.
John


----------



## barefootnavigator

Very wise word John. The only way I could afford to purchase my boat for cash was because she was in a similar state of non use. It was and is a massive project bringing her back but well worth the effort. It would have been much easier to simply finance a turn key boat but for me there is is no freedom in that. I fail on a regular basis, pick my self up dust off the dirt put one foot in front of the other and keep moving forward. Should I ever decide it all too much I have a nice little net egg built into the boat.


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## Minnesail

ccriders said:


> Her slip costs about $200 a month, so someone has paid over $16,000 to neglect a really nice boat.


Oh no, dude, he's totally getting around to it. Just a couple more things to take care of around the house, then he's totally going to get to that boat. For sure.


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## Cruiser2B

Minnesail said:


> Oh no, dude, he's totally getting around to it. Just a couple more things to take care of around the house, then he's totally going to get to that boat. For sure.


I am pretty sure your comment was made in jest and that's cool. But for some just the thought and dream is all the need to get thru the BS of everyday life.

I had a boat in the slip next to me for 3 years nevr moved and had a small reef growning on it, like the post above i thought she was abandoned, ask marina about boat, they said slip was paid for. One day a line broke and found boat nearly on top of mine. I tied it off with one of my spare lines and let marina know, 3 days later I found boat had all new dock lines and my dock line resting on my bow with a note thanking me for looking after his baby...

Sorry for hi jack, but while cruising for $500 a month is possible and done, many can not break away from life and responsibility they have created on land. So just having that dream....for $200 IS worth the money to some.


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## Lou452

It took a lot of reading to get back up with this thread. I hit the like button on anyone of you that I (liked) This may not mean I am in a total agreement but I did like the thoughts expressed. 
I think we need to define $500 a month as single. 
Can we get an idea as to cost per person 
Next should we say two people will need $1000 and may live a little better or the old saying two can live as cheap as one? 
Lets set a cost per person.
I wanted to put out some numbers 
$500 per month is $16.13 a day on average.
Lets call it $16.25 
This what you have for a daily budget or $6000 for a year 
What we need to assume is all bills are paid ? Boat registration tax and insurance and your own heath care ?
If you work three hours at $8 an hour pay tax 30% You have $16.80 
Thoughts, Lou


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## christian.hess

krisscross said:


> Has anyone tried cooking with solar oven on board? Cooking fuel is expensive as well.
> I would imagine that using a solar oven with a pressure cooker inside should work on board but I have never tried it yet.


man yeah we did...you need space and its only good for stewy stuff...

my crews wife brought it and honestly you need a big boat and poopdeck to do it

however it DID work but the glare was intense and would leave you blind if you stared at it more than a second

anywhoo, for rice, potatoey stuff good
you could probably do a quick fish stew with it as well

just guessing...we used it from cancun to key west so it was a very short trial...

ps. pressure cookers need intense fuel to start getting pressurized then you simmer down now and it uses very little gas after that...jeje

they sell some really nice small ones now 2-4 quarts is more than enough on a boat


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## christian.hess

jrd22 said:


> I love hearing about young people following their instincts and dreams and making things happen whether they have any money or not. I believe that everyone should go through a period in their *lives where they are on the edge of poverty* (and I don't mean between checks from Mom and Dad) where they have serious thoughts about where their next meal is going to come from. It builds character and self reliance. Go for it Barefoot, enjoy the heck out of what you are doing now, I just hope because of your chosen life style that you are not collecting food stamps, welfare, etc to "finance" it?


you sir are a true philosopher, THIS in bold is a key to a succesful and appreciative take on LIFE as a whole, it does build character and most importantly shows you how not to waste and unappreciate all precious things in life....people my age are so out of tune with this philosophy that I have simply stopped talking about my "past" life as a cruiser...

anywhoo
good stuff this thread is obi one would say


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## krisscross

christian.hess said:


> my crews wife brought it and honestly you need a big boat and poopdeck to do it
> 
> however it DID work but the glare was intense and would leave you blind if you stared at it more than a second


Thanks! What kind of stove was it? Yes, I have heard about the glare. You need really dark glasses to work with it. Did you cook while under way or just when tied up? When you are using it with a pressure cooker you don't have to worry about spilling stuff. I'm a stew kind of a guy anyway, so for me it would be perfect.


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## Brent Swain

I have been cruising the last 37 years on a lot less then $500 a month. Living on a boat is not anything like living under a bridge, and is rent free. Landlubbers don't get the "free of rent" part, nor the" not supporting a car" part.
Things can be a bit more costly for the first 3 years, while you are sorting your priorities out and buying bits and pieces. When you have all your toys, costs drop drastically.


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## christian.hess

krisscross said:


> Thanks! What kind of stove was it? Yes, I have heard about the glare. You need really dark glasses to work with it. Did you cook while under way or just when tied up? When you are using it with a pressure cooker you don't have to worry about spilling stuff. I'm a stew kind of a guy anyway, so for me it would be perfect.


dontb rememeber but they were kind of new back then and it was a tester so it was basically a pot with 3 sided panels that reflected all the sun back into the pot or container if you will

we did it underway and it was a mistake since it was 3 of us on a 28 foot wooden boat so it was not ideal having said that I have seen them being used in rural communities down here and on land with much better success...

if saving cooking fuel is your number one concern then get a gimballed kerosene burner and use the smallest pressure cooker available to cook once for the whole day

this is a tactic used by many solo sailors, some even do sushi and sashimi on a daily basis to cut on fuel costs...that and can eating

anywhoo


----------



## MikeOReilly

Brent Swain said:


> I have been cruising the last 37 years on a lot less then $500 a month. Living on a boat is not anything like living under a bridge, and is rent free. Landlubbers don't get the "free of rent" part, nor the" not supporting a car" part.
> Things can be a bit more costly for the first 3 years, while you are sorting your priorities out and buying bits and pieces. When you have all your toys, costs drop drastically.


Thanks Brent. This is going to be our approach when we move on board full-time in six months. If we are careful, live modestly (as we already do), and are a bit lucky I expect we'll have enough cash to last us at least 3 years. I expect (based on comments like yours) that this should be enough time to make this a sustainable life.

If not, so be it. As with all things in life, failure is always an option .


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## ericb760

This thread has legs for a reason. From the poorest among us to the richest, we all seem committed to the general theme of "stepping off". I had an offer to do so in 1999 and I politely declined. I was in South Texas and had just sailed back from a year in Belize, which was an adventure in, and of, itself. The boat was heading out through the Canal to points South on a planned three year sail. I was turning 30 and had a decent career ahead of me and, sadly, I succumbed to the societal pressure to "grow up and plant some roots". I'm 45 now, and although my "roots" may not be as deep as some, I am the father of two beautiful children and the financial obligations that come with that. Nevertheless, I bought a damned boat. And when I sit in the cockpit on a Saturday night with a drink in my hand, I imagine a solo circumnavigation of Catalina Island, a mere 26 miles offshore. And, sometimes, when I've drank more than I probably should, I imagine that journey "down south" and I convince myself that it's not too late to make that trip. If not this year, then maybe the next, or the year after that...


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## christian.hess

mike its giving up before even trying THATS NOT OK...

cheers

ps. I think this thread is what sailnet should really be about...helpful informative cordial discussions...

safe sailing dudes


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## ericb760

A bit OT, but here's a 14 year old girl who did a circ...because she wanted to and got thoroughly trounced for doing so.
Why a 14-Year-Old Girl Decided to Sail Around the World Alone - Sam Price-Waldman - The Atlantic


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## Minnesail

ericb760 said:


> Nevertheless, I bought a damned boat.


And that is awesome. You've already won.


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## ericb760

Minnesail said:


> And that is awesome. You've already won.


I get that, yeah. However, when the slip is paid for (and it doesn't hurt to write the check) and you can afford the libation of your choice, and your belly is full, complacency sets in. I should be content. The truth is that I am not. But, damn! I'm not yet ready to walk (or sail) away from a guaranteed money stream. And, I can't practice my trade without a license, which is hard to come by in latitudes south of my present location.


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## Tenoch

I was watching a documentary online the other night (I forget which one) but I remember them saying that 70% of the people in The Americas earn less than $2 a day. Now of course the vast majority of those people live in Mexico, Central, and South America and I'm not suggesting that you can cruise on that budget, but it kind of gives you an idea of what is possible. 

It is definitely too bad about the health care situation in the U.S. All it would take is a fall down the companionway, or a good crack on the head by the boom to run up such a medical bill that I could potentially lose it all. 

The trade off is that since I am more likely to be successful living on less that $500 a month south of the U.S. border, or North in the Salish Sea....when I do fall down the companionway...I will be able to afford the local doctor. (this is my hope).


----------



## Don L

Brent Swain said:


> I have been cruising the last 37 years on a lot less then $500 a month.


I find this statement pretty hard to believe and call BS. 37 years ago $500 would buy the same as $1,923 in 2013!


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## Bene505

Why the Salish Sea? It seems like a really cold place to me.

Great thread. Our family phone/internet bills are close to $500 per month. That's Verizon (4 smart phones and a MiFi) and Cablevision (combined home phone, Internet, and almost-basic cable TV). I'm putting my own cell phone on hold as I get one through work - the plan is so old that it's unlimited data. I ought to lend it to someone instead.

Gas heat and electric combined are another $500 per month. (No A/C.) And that's after getting a programmable thermostat and setting the night time temp down. Next step is to re-do the window film/insulation.

So this thread is especially appealing.

Regards,
Brad


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## christian.hess

the statement above is true(regarding pay in mexico and ca) for example here in el salvador minimum wage per month is about $160...that is enough for 1 person to live on...

having said that we have massive overpopulation in the cities and the farmland is being abandoned so that leaves you with nice scenery outside cities but NO JOBS

and we all know how that ends up(think the states in the great depression) etc...

as en example I have 3 workers at my restauarant and Im small scale...

they all earn about 3 times that much on a daily basis plus tips, and they work LESS than half of the 6 day normal work schedule here...so they are happy campers...I camt say that for all restaurants or places here...there is massive abuse of power by big companies and small alike regarding worker salaries, and hours.

...in any case back to $500 budgets...I think this will be a key number for myself my newborn and wife during our 2015 cruise of central america...thats the plan at least

so anybody coming down? we can buddy boat! jajaja at least till the wife gets the hang if it! jajajaja

peace


----------



## christian.hess

Bene505 said:


> Why the Salish Sea? It seems like a really cold place to me.
> 
> Great thread. Our family phone/internet bills are close to $500 per month. That's Verizon (4 smart phones and a MiFi) and Cablevision (combined home phone, Internet, and almost-basic cable TV). I'm putting my own cell phone on hold as I get one through work - the plan is so old that it's unlimited data. I ought to lend it to someone instead.
> 
> Gas heat and electric combined are another $500 per month. (No A/C.) And that's after getting a programmable thermostat and setting the night time temp down. Next step is to re-do the window film/insulation.
> 
> So this thread is especially appealing.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


heat an electric $500!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????????? say what?

man Im so sorry

down here nice weather all year round and propane is brought to your house for free and electric is always around $30 as its subsidized by the government

then again we make 10% of what you guys do up there so, anywhoo


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## JonEisberg

Don0190 said:


> I find this statement pretty hard to believe and call BS. 37 years ago $500 would buy the same as $1,923 in 2013!


Yeah, that was my first thought, as well...

While I certainly have nothing but admiration for those who manage to liveaboard/cruise on such budgets, I certainly couldn't do it  And, I think going engineless with a pretty small boat is likely the only way to be able to do it...

I just don't see how one can manage to do so over the long haul... At some point, you'll need to invest in or replace some big ticket item, sails, or whatever... Pretty easy to drop half a boat buck these days on something close to being essential, or at least very 'nice to have'...

The OP seems to be in a very fortuitous position for the time being, a well-found boat that doesn't need much, his good health, lots of nice cruising close to home, etc... But budgets really start to get stressed when one decides to really start going places, visiting other countries, and so on...

Should he ever desire to transit the Panama Canal, for instance, that's basically gonna be 2 month's budget, right there... Clearance fees around the world continue to rise at a shocking rate, I'm pretty sure it was the Pardeys who recently confessed there's no way they could afford to do today the extent of cruising they've done for decades, on the sort of budget they did... Fatty Goodlander is another who was shocked at the rise in fees between their first circumnavigation, and the second...

For me, one of the biggest potential budget-busters when you actually start sailing further from home, are charts... If the OP wanted to explore a region like Atlantic Canada, for instance, even e-charts alone could easily suck up a month's budget, at least... And if he were like me, and wanted paper charts for such a cruising ground, that adds up to a LOT of charts, he'd probably have to give up eating for about 9 months


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## Bene505

Yes, expenses are high here. For instance, the monthly train ticket to work is $240 per month. Then add $4.50 per day for the subway. And millions of people pay that, this is not a special case.

But the public education here is outstanding - top 5 in the state every year. About 30 Advanced Placement college courses are offered in the High School. That's why we and others do it.

Once the kids are done with schooling, we are cruising the Carribean. We just need to make sure we have a good enough cruising kitty.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## christian.hess

x2 on the charts guys

I lucked out as my boat came with charlies charts and guides, plus a whole tube of paper charts for mexico down to panama...so if I need anything it will be a simple software program for my laptop...not big just something to back up the paper charts

im "old" school regarding navigation...I learned celestial a ways back but now my preffered navigation is 2 gps, one hardwired and 1 or 2 handhelds with ram mounts...just for lat long and bearing headings...

a couple of rulers and slides and a protractor(cant remember the name in english sorry) and thats that

I do confess that man it does get expensive when you start from zero

but there are many saling clubs and cruisers that happily trade charts from boat to boat...the trick is being nice and keen and see which boats are coming from the direction yo are heading

but again I confess this is kind of a lost art when you see most boats with huge plotters on the wheel

good luck to all! hope to see some of you down here...the season has begun!

come on down! jajaja


----------



## MikeOReilly

ericb760 said:


> This thread has legs for a reason. From the poorest among us to the richest, we all seem committed to the general theme of "stepping off". I had an offer to do so in 1999 and I politely declined. I was in South Texas and had just sailed back from a year in Belize, which was an adventure in, and of, itself. The boat was heading out through the Canal to points South on a planned three year sail. I was turning 30 and had a decent career ahead of me and, sadly, I succumbed to the societal pressure to "grow up and plant some roots". I'm 45 now, and although my "roots" may not be as deep as some, I am the father of two beautiful children and the financial obligations that come with that. Nevertheless, I bought a damned boat. And when I sit in the cockpit on a Saturday night with a drink in my hand, I imagine a solo circumnavigation of Catalina Island, a mere 26 miles offshore. And, sometimes, when I've drank more than I probably should, I imagine that journey "down south" and I convince myself that it's not too late to make that trip. If not this year, then maybe the next, or the year after that...


Thanks for these thoughtful comments Eric. I feel the same roots taking hold. As a 20+ year self-employed freelance writer/designer/photographer/whatever-the-heck-needs-doing I've never had a large income. However, at 46 I now find myself wealthier than I've ever been -- still below the average income for Canadians, but financially richer, and more professionally successful, than I've ever been.

My plan remains to move on board our boat next summer and begin our extended cruise, but I too feel the roots of this life taking hold. It is comfortable here. Safe... When we leave the financial "success" I've had will be shaken, and while I don't feel old yet, I am beginning to hear the whispers of mortality.

It does get harder to leave...


----------



## MikeOReilly

JonEisberg said:


> While I certainly have nothing but admiration for those who manage to liveaboard/cruise on such budgets, I certainly couldn't do it  And, I think going engineless with a pretty small boat is likely the only way to be able to do it...


I really don't know if $500/month is doable. I certainly think it is almost impossible in rich parts of the world. The cost of living here in Canada, and most parts of the US, is simply too high for this to be possible. But as has been said by others, people in most parts of the world live on far less than we do here. For most of the world, $500/month would be rich.

That said, I agree with you Jon that costs are real, and they appear to be increasing for cruisers. Boats, like homes, are not cheap. Maintenance is a must, and unexpected breakage will set us back big time. I hope that going slow and carefully will allow us to minimize these costs. We'll see... But I don't get hung up on the $500/month number. It's aspirational, not specific. Some months will certainly be more, some months hopefully less. I can tell you it costs us far less than $500/month when we do our seasonal cruises on Lake Superior. Too bad the water turns hard for 6 months of every year .



JonEisberg said:


> For me, one of the biggest potential budget-busters when you actually start sailing further from home, are charts... If the OP wanted to explore a region like Atlantic Canada, for instance, even e-charts alone could easily suck up a month's budget, at least... And if he were like me, and wanted paper charts for such a cruising ground, that adds up to a LOT of charts, he'd probably have to give up eating for about 9 months


Agreed, although I can tell you that digital has become incredibly cheap. Not that I'm an advocate of 100% digital, but I purchased all the digital charts for Canada, and part of the US eastern coast for a total cost of ~$100. iNavx and their Navionics package (I think) gives me everything, so it is possible.


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## travlin-easy

My booze bill is nearly $500 a month! As for the cell phone, you can get unlimited plans for under $50 a month, and that includes internet access. Most of the time, though, you can get free internet access with the aid of a $19 USB antenna - that's what I did all the way down the ICW to Florida.

If I were cruising in South Florida, the winds are usually sufficient that I would rarely run the engine, which would really cut costs quite a bit. As for food there, I can catch all the fish I want, but you get tired of fish every night for dinner. I bought a case of Ravioli for the trip, and purchased another case while in the keys - that stuff is cheap and very filling. Egg beaters went pretty far, I like them better than real eggs, and they're much less expensive. Sausage is cheap too.

I enjoyed eating hotdogs fresh from the grill most days, lot of toppings make them taste a lot better. Loved fresh Vidalia onions, relish, cheese, sometimes even a little chili. Oh yeah! Grilled cheese sandwich sprinkled with bacon bits made a good lunch as well.

For beverages, Coors Light can be found at discount prices just about everywhere, and I found a Wallgreen Liquor store at the east end of Marathon Key that had the cheapest booze prices in the U.S.. A bottle of melon liquor was only $4, offbrand coconut rum $7 for a big bottle, and the grocery stores had Margaretta mix for just $6 for a large bottle. Sure makes great Green Coconut Margarettas.

Gas was outrageously expensive at the marinas, $512 a gallon, while at the same time the nearby gas stations were selling regular gasoline for $3.15 a gallon. It took a couple trips with a grocery store basket and three 5-gallon jerry cans to top off the boat's 35-gallon tank.

I got to watch moves on the PC using the free WI-FI access I found throughout the trip south. Just go to www.crackle.com and the movies are all free and even on a 12-inch laptop screen they were enjoyable to watch while anchored in some remote, secluded cove during nasty weather.

I used 20-pounds of propane during the entire 6 months trip, which cost me about $30 at a local gas station. I used it for heat a couple times, but I was very cautious about doing this as it could easily burn all of the oxygen out of the cabin in just a few hours. My cabin seals up pretty tightly. When I had electricity, my heat pump did a great job for both air conditioning and heat, but as anyone knows, electricity in marinas is very expensive.

Good Luck,

Gary


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## barefootnavigator

What I'm really curious about is why when someone posts that they have cruised for 37 years for under 500 per month somebody would call BS? Would you say that to their face, or is it just hiding behind the guise of the internet? Its rude, uncalled for and unwarranted anf unappreciated but I guess that were society is today. 

I'm 45 years old, when I was 30 there wasn't a human alive that could convince me that I could have lived off of less than $15,000.00 per month but guess what you can. I'm currently in one of the most expensive area's in WA state but its not effecting my budget at all. 

I pulled the boat to do some bi annual maintenance, monthly yard bill $44.00, labor $00.00 housing on the beach in a million dollar home $00.00 Yard supplies for 90 days just under $400.00. I have spent 27.50 year to date and expect another 200 to go out the door. On my current budget of $500.00 per month I'm saving an average of $150.00 per month. I'm saving $1,800 per year. I'm just curious how many people here carry Zero debt and are saving over $1,800 per year?

Being debt free is the first big budget saver and cooking from scratch is the second, I suck at cooking but am learning. I don't pay dock fee's and was even invited to stay a month free by the local marina at the end of summer. 

Only time will tell my real budget but if you don't think outside of the box I can tell you it will be quite expensive where ever you are. My hope is that as life progresses my budget will get easier and my monthly income higher. I found that selling the car and shutting off the cell phone were two of the healthiest things I have ever done for myself. I also try and avoid processed food's. Sure it costs more to buy from the local farm but their is a ton more nutrients so we eat less and feel fuller so it actually cost less in the long run. 

One thing I can tell you for sure back in the days that I was making more in a month than most Americans make in a year I wasn't happy. Now that I live below the US poverty level I live and feel like millionaire. My riches are in quality of life and time to live it as I choose. 

If I have to stop and scrub toilets for a month to buy a new piece of gear it beats the hell out of a lifetime of doing 5 MPH in traffic for 2 hours a day. Its our ego that hold us back more than almost any other barrier in life, I have killed mine and now am free of the dock lines in life that bind us


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## Brent Swain

I find it amazing to hear of people living among those who live on $2 a day, arguing whether or not it is possible to live on $500 a month. The people around them are walking encyclopedias on affordable living. Tap into their centuries of experience on affordable living. They would probably be honoured to be asked .


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## Sal Paradise

I am just posting to say I looked at your blog and that is a very nice looking 22' boat! Seems to be quite a bit more there than my 22. 

You keep mentioning being debt free. Thats a great thing but I don't think anyone means loan payments or personal debt when they talk about cruising budget. They mean simply fuel, food, marina's, repairs,charts, phone bills,misc supplies..... debt is clearly outside of that.


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## Alex W

barefootnavigator said:


> I'm 45 years old, when I was 30 there wasn't a human alive that could convince me that I could have lived off of less than $15,000.00 per month but guess what you can.


When you were 30, in 1999, you were making $180k per year and found that to be minimal? That is way way over median income in WA, and at the time would have put you in about the top 3%. Since the top 1% is very hard to break that is quite impressive.

Based on your profile photo it looks like you smoke. Wouldn't that habit alone take about half of your budget?

I admire a debt free lifestyle and have advocated it myself. However there is a big difference between living debt free and living debt free with a $500/mo income and limited savings. There are basic creature comforts that I enjoy like 2 cups of good coffee a day (about $30-40 in beans per month) and a few quality beers per week (about $50-$60 per month, not going out) that kill such a small budget. It is pretty hard to keep even a small motorless boat in tip-top shape (new sails every 10 years, new bottom paint every 2 years) for less than $200/mo.

When you talk about having spent $27.50 so far this year that doesn't account for spending that you've already made, like food purchased in 2013, correct? That isn't exactly a fair way of looking at it. When accounting this way you could have spent $100k on freeze dried food way back in 1999 when you made close to $200k/year. You would never spend money on food again and claim that your food budget was $0/mo. It would be a miserable lifestyle, but good for internet bragging rights. I'm not saying you've done this, only showing why you can't account this way.


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## Donna_F

ericb760 said:


> ...I should be content. The truth is that I am not. But, damn! I'm not yet ready to walk (or sail) away from a guaranteed money stream. ...


Wanting a steady income does not make anyone less worthy as a human being.


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## MikeOReilly

In an effort to keep this thread on track, can I suggest that people continue to share ideas or experiences about how they were able to voyage on a small budget. Sailors are prone to exaggerate -- we all know that. Instead of trying to find fault with other other people's contributions, how about explaining how you tried to do something, or how you've thought of something.


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## Brent Swain

Alex W said:


> When you were 30, in 1999, you were making $180k per year and found that to be minimal? That is way way over median income in WA, and at the time would have put you in about the top 3%. Since the top 1% is very hard to break that is quite impressive.
> 
> Based on your profile photo it looks like you smoke. Wouldn't that habit along take about half of your budget?
> 
> I admire a debt free lifestyle and have advocated it myself. However there is a big difference between living debt free and living debt free with a $500/mo income and limited savings. There are basic creature comforts that I enjoy like 2 cups of good coffee a day (about $30-40 in beans per month) and a few quality beers per week (about $50-$60 per month, not going out) that kill such a small budget. It is pretty hard to keep even a small motorless boat in tip-top shape (new sails every 10 years, new bottom paint every 2 years) for less than $200/mo.
> 
> When you talk about having spent $27.50 so far this year that doesn't account for spending that you've already made, like food purchased in 2013, correct? That isn't exactly a fair way of looking at it. When accounting this way you could have spent $100k on freeze dried food way back in 1999 when you made close to $200k/year. You would never spend money on food again and claim that your food budget was $0/mo. It would be a miserable lifestyle, but good for internet bragging rights. I'm not saying you've done this, only showing why you can't account this way.


Your maintenance cost estimate works out to around $4800 per haul out. That's extremely high. You are being ripped off ,if you are paying that much. I use only tide grids . I have hauled out my boat only twice in 29 years, only because I was in Tonga, with not enough tidal range, and 4,000 mile windward trips ahead of me. Cost, around $200 per haul out.
Otherwise, my maintenance costs are less then $50 a year. I never pay moorage, nor any other regular fees. I don't drink and have never smoked. I get far more enjoyment out of the freedom that gives me, than I could ever get out of such expensive self poisoning.


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## christian.hess

Brent Swain said:


> I find it amazing to hear of people living among those who live on $2 a day, arguing whether or not it is possible to live on $500 a month. The people around them are walking encyclopedias on affordable living. Tap into their centuries of experience on affordable living. They would probably be honoured to be asked .


HERE HERE!

btw...I should edit my post on minimum wage down here...it has recently been incremented to $220 month for 5.5 days of work 9 hours a day...

so that is a nice boost for our people!


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## Alex W

Brent Swain said:


> Your maintenance cost estimate works out to around $4800 per haul out.


You did not read my maintenance estimate very closely. I wasn't only talking about bottom paint. I also called out sail costs as an example.

New quality sails today are about $3,000 for a small cruising boat (that is one main and one genoa from a quality loft, or perhaps a main, jib and genoa that I'd consider minimal for cruising from a discount loft). 10 years is longer than you can realistically use sails on a boat being cruised heavily.

Running rigging and standing rigging together would also have a service life of less than 10 years for a cruiser being sailed daily. They combine at about $3000 on a small boat. I'm assuming a <10000lb sloop, no engine, no furler, basic running rigging.

Canvas, rebedding deck hardware and ports, blocks for rigging, navigation electronics, all add up. $200/mo is on the high end for an engineless boat, but probably on the low end for one with a diesel inboard that is getting regular use.

My basic point is that it is cheating to count money already spent as not part of your ongoing budget. The Golden Globe sailors each spent close to a year on the water for $0/mo, but their budget in the year leading up to the race was clearly well above the average sailing budget.


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## FirstCandC

Gary, you just summed up my entire retirement dream in one post.
You are my hero!


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## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> In an effort to keep this thread on track, can I suggest that people continue to share ideas or experiences about how they were able to voyage on a small budget. Sailors are prone to exaggerate -- we all know that. Instead of trying to find fault with other other people's contributions, how about explaining how you tried to do something, or how you've thought of something.


since cooking is my thing here goes(and I agree...this thread is a good one, lets keep it sane)

for long voyages money savers are:
rice
potatoes
eggs in waxed paper at room temp...never refrugerate eggs thats where they dont last
onions
pasta(there are a million kinds)
beans(white, pinto, garbanzos, red beans, etc)

FISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OR LEARN HOW TO

next in line
fruits that last
pomelos(grapefruits) can last up to a month
banananas(get a whole branch and have it green...) it will last up to 3 weeks
tangerines are good up to a week
mangoes if green up to 2 weeks

stuff that does not last but a day

TOMATOES.. anything that can only be eaten fully ripe, example an apple...

stuff that you can combine with

dried chilliies, spices, roots, garlic, barks

instead of cooking with spray oil or oil cause of weight use canned BUTTER if you are lucky get the indian butter(I forget the name) it lasts indefinetly at room temp and is not partially hydrogenated like all margarines and fake butters

my motto is use less real butter than any sort of fake butter...youre veins and heart will thank you later

lastly you can make preserves, conservas like dried tomatoes, fennel, piperades, roasted bell peppers , marinated olives...all ahead of time at your favourite port and fill the cabinets with them...yes they are glass but so what? now you have preserved NATURAL food that lasts up to a year...

tomato chutney hell yeah
tomato sauce for pastas yeah
dried chilli paste for curries yes please!

doing this and learning to cook is the biggest money saver you can have

that and not spending money where you dont need to...like a bar checking out the hot locals, getting horny and tipping your life savings and cruising kitty $$$ away

thats the biggest cliche and oldest story in the cruising book...people throwing away their money at the first spot they think is paradise...

ps. this happens a lot in mexico...

anywhoo

back on track...Ill guarantee you that when I start cruising again with a newborn or 1 year old next year my expenses will be around $500....

like someone else said some months more some less, but that is dependant on how many ports you visit when you leave a country and when you refuel etc...not each month is x.

christian


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## FirstCandC

That $500 budget may change when you meet your Significant Other..


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## chef2sail

barefootnavigator said:


> What I'm really curious about is why when someone posts that they have cruised for 37 years for under 500 per month somebody would call BS? Would you say that to their face, or is it just hiding behind the guise of the internet? Its rude, uncalled for and unwarranted anf unappreciated but I guess that were society is today.
> 
> I'm 45 years old, when I was 30 there wasn't a human alive that could convince me that I could have lived off of less than $15,000.00 per month but guess what you can. I'm currently in one of the most expensive area's in WA state but its not effecting my budget at all.
> 
> I pulled the boat to do some bi annual maintenance, monthly yard bill $44.00, labor $00.00 housing on the beach in a million dollar home $00.00 Yard supplies for 90 days just under $400.00. I have spent 27.50 year to date and expect another 200 to go out the door. On my current budget of $500.00 per month I'm saving an average of $150.00 per month. I'm saving $1,800 per year. I'm just curious how many people here carry Zero debt and are saving over $1,800 per year?
> 
> Being debt free is the first big budget saver and cooking from scratch is the second, I suck at cooking but am learning. I don't pay dock fee's and was even invited to stay a month free by the local marina at the end of summer.
> 
> Only time will tell my real budget but if you don't think outside of the box I can tell you it will be quite expensive where ever you are. My hope is that as life progresses my budget will get easier and my monthly income higher. I found that selling the car and shutting off the cell phone were two of the healthiest things I have ever done for myself. I also try and avoid processed food's. Sure it costs more to buy from the local farm but their is a ton more nutrients so we eat less and feel fuller so it actually cost less in the long run.
> 
> One thing I can tell you for sure back in the days that I was making more in a month than most Americans make in a year I wasn't happy. Now that I live below the US poverty level I live and feel like millionaire. My riches are in quality of life and time to live it as I choose.
> 
> If I have to stop and scrub toilets for a month to buy a new piece of gear it beats the hell out of a lifetime of doing 5 MPH in traffic for 2 hours a day. Its our ego that hold us back more than almost any other barrier in life, I have killed mine and now am free of the dock lines in life that bind us


Seems to me its just as rude to poke fingers at those who sit in 5 mph traffic and make good money as though they are doing the evils of the world. Some maybe quite productive and also push parts of society forward.

I dont look down or think badly of those who set off to go off the grid or live under the US minimum anymore than I think those that make millions are evil and unhappy.

To each his own, The beauty is you can CHOOSE which ever way you want to go. No need to disparage others for their choices no matter which direction they decide.


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## barefootnavigator

My apologies chef, please re read the post, I was using myself a an example not others. The point of the topic is cruising on 500 per month which makes the entire post very relevant. Calling BS on a very informative contributor her has zero relevance.


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## christian.hess

FirstCandC said:


> That $500 budget may change when you meet your Significant Other..


Im married...sorry if that was not clear...and no it wont if you lay rules first...

the spanish couple I cruised with owend pharmacies in spain...they lived on less than 500 some months because of where they were at...if your boat is sound before leaving you ameliorate a lot of expenses in the future because you have done your due dilligence...

but if your itching to set sail and at least your rig is strong...cosmetic maintenance is a walk in the park, and not even necessary...but thats just me...I had paint given to me off big boats...even submarine antiu fouling in panama...a quiart of varnish for a bottom job, yes please...

dont want to go up the mast? Ill do it

thanks for the tip

etc...

not everyone would agree but hey

thats what this thread is about no?


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## MikeOReilly

Thanks Christian. Carrying on with your food theme, we are usually out for around a month at a time, and almost never go to a marina during that period (there are precious few where we sail). We carry:

• Fruits: oranges, grapefruit last quite well. Hard apples do pretty well up here.
• Potatoes, onions, garlic, all last long times. We keep them aired in hammocks mostly.
• Cabbage lasts forever, and is very versatile. Great for sandwiches (lettuce substitute), and also good for main meals as cooked veggie. Great in soups. 
• Dried and canned beans. Dried pasta. Rice. 
• Coffee, tea.
• For breads we bring or make tortillas. I'm installing a new oven this season, so we'll be baking bread again.
• We carry all manner of dried veggies and fruits. Done right, dried food last years, and retains most of the nutritional value.
• We also dry meats. I particularly like a ground beef mix that I create and dry. Great supplement for many pot meals, and keeps for years if done right.
• We also fish. Salmon and Lake Trout up here. Will have to learn how to do it as we head south.
• Sprouts: a must, and so easy.

• Now, my great weakness: good beer. I'm with you Gary. I could easily spend $500/month here. Gotta get back to fermenting things myself I suppose...

One key thing is spices. We always carry a good supply of dried and fresh spices. We usually have a basil plant going, carry nutmeg, garlic and ginger, and have plenty of dried.

We both like to cook. Our galley is functional, and we have decent pots and tools, all of which promotes on-board cooking.


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## barefootnavigator

Speaking of smoking I just received a package of 13.3 grams of herbal smoking tobacco that's a one month supply. The blend is passion flower, hops, blue Lilly, wild lettuce, blue lotus, cost, $16.00. Booze is primarily made up of cheap table wine average price $2.00 per bottle and consumed daily in moderation. For special occasions I carry a case of two of private reserve wine as in it not available for purchase. Even on a small budget there is much room for extravagance in moderation of course  The key is to buy it when and where its affordable.


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## christian.hess

all the spanish, french, portuguese, brazilian and mosty european boats that smoked rolled their own

I must say the smell was nice, PLUS you dont smoke the bad stuff and chemicals...

when Im old Ill smoke a pipe like my german grandpa werner! jajajaja

cheers


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## christian.hess

barefootnavigator said:


> Speaking of smoking I just received a package of 13.3 grams of herbal smoking tobacco that's a one month supply. The blend is passion flower, hops, blue Lilly, wild lettuce, blue lotus, cost, $16.00. Booze is primarily made up of cheap table wine average price $2.00 per bottle and consumed daily in moderation. For special occasions I carry a case of two of private reserve wine as in it not available for purchase. Even on a small budget there is much room for extravagance in moderation of course  The key is to buy it when and where its affordable.


does $2 buck chuck still exist at trader joes?

that was my every day wine when I was cooking up in san fran and when at the boat...

just like in europe wine is cheap and every day...at least a glass...on boats in bilges its easy to do...

peace


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## Tenoch

I second the 'cheap table wine'. A case of TJs Cabernet is less than $30. If you start with a high quality $6.00 bottle and use the Two-Buck-Chuck as your 'second' bottle, you'll never know the difference (or at least not care). 

Also in the U.S. you can get monthly cell phone for $35, no contract, through Virgin Mobile using the Sprint towers. 

...just some suggestions.


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## Tenoch

christian.hess said:


> does $2 buck chuck still exist at trader joes?


..Its up to $2.49 in Oregon. damnit.


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## Cruiser2B

Barefoot and others,

Cruising on a small budget is exciting idea especially if you want to rid yourself of the daily grind, as I do...but even $500/mth has to be earned. Do you care to share with us, barefoot, ness, swain and others, how you became debt free and how you earn your $500 monthly income? Brent, Barefoot, Ness and other please tell us how you are doing it? I am in the paying off my debt and living frugal at home while wife and I work....and its not easy especially when everything but my paycheck is going up.

How are you guys not handling this mandated health care, that just put a big dent in my cruising/refit fund. I was saving money and foregoing on the health care because the wife and I are active and healthy, big risk....I can no longer make that choice and am now shelling out $400/mth for healthcare....I am not seeing how this fits into a $500/mth budget. Please help me understand, from what you post it soundseasy, I am not finding it so easy to rid myself of debt....actually the harder I try the harder it gets or so it seems.


Barefoot, I am a follower of your blog and have been for some time,this is not an attack,but you have been going cruising or talking about going cruising for the few years I have been following. But you are still here? Is it not that easy on a small budget, seemed some of your hangups in your posts were in fact because of your limited budget and income? 

Thanks for helping me understand the mechanics of earning $500 per month.


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## barefootnavigator

Right 2.49 I was thinking that but my fingers are still in CA where it was 2.00  Here is the key with 2 buck chuck. First off only buy Cab all else is junk. Sip on a pinch of good scotch before drinking the 2 buck chuck and it completely changes the pallet. You heard it here first


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## barefootnavigator

Cruiser 2b you are very right. It has been a struggle, I don't know how far you go back, I have been writing it for 7 years. I had the perfect boat a beautiful girl and money. DIVORCE less than 2.5 years ago and all was lost. I had to find a new boat and start all over from scratch, I refuse to borrow a single penny and my divorce was right smack in the middle of the recession. So my monumental struggle set me back. The last 2.5 years of my life have been some of the very best and while it was a massive project rebuilding my boat and it took time it was also just what the doctor had ordered. I think that this is where the divide splits, so many people just want it all now without earning it. I worked hard, earned it lost it and started all over. My mistake was always trying to leave before being in the proper place, obviously last spring found me there but with many more failures. I'm lucky being that people pay me to write so every catastrophe is a payday.


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## barefootnavigator

Cruiser, I should also add that the reason I keep that blog is so that people can follow a very honest struggle of the realities of making this dream happen. There are hundreds of sailing blogs but none I have found that share the actual 100% honest truth. I openly share the struggle, I posted 175 times last year and make zilch from my efforts. I wish I could have found something similar when I started all of this but people just wont honestly share many things.


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## Cruiser2B

barefootnavigator said:


> Cruiser, I should also add that the reason I keep that blog is so that people can follow a very honest struggle of the realities of making this dream happen. There are hundreds of sailing blogs but none I have found that share the actual 100% honest truth. I openly share the struggle, I posted 175 times last year and make zilch from my efforts. I wish I could have found something similar when I started all of this but people just wont honestly share many things.


I find your blog quite good and very informative and as you say honest. My content in 100% honest as well. Not hide anything here. That why I asked the questions. You seem to be in a constant struggle with life and actually cutting the lines. Often times it seems as though it is a financial reason for your not departing on your journey.

I am inquiring about the specific because I want to cruise with my wife and often find myself wondering how we are going to get to that point and when we do how will we maintain, especially while cruising. I have mechanic skills, 100ton Capt license(package submitted), can weld and also repair electronics. Wife just because a RTY200 yoga instructor....all good things to make money but Can it really be done when away from the dock? I know I will never go hungry here as I am connected in the pipeline of work, network with friends and can speak the laungauge. How it this done in other places? Do you have a plan for that?

Thanks for the help


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## Donna_F

barefootnavigator said:


> Cruiser, I should also add that the reason I keep that blog is so that people can follow a very honest struggle of the realities of making this dream happen. There are hundreds of sailing blogs but none I have found that share the actual 100% honest truth. I openly share the struggle, I posted 175 times last year and make zilch from my efforts. I wish I could have found something similar when I started all of this but people just wont honestly share many things.


I think there are many reasons for filtering one's life on the internet. Perhaps some of the blogs are just to share with family and friends, a way to keep in touch and let them know in a fun way that all is well and there is no need to share the bad bits. Perhaps some other subset of them just didn't have the same struggle as you did.

Your reasons for sharing as much as you do are admirable.


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## travlin-easy

Cheap wine can be found anywhere, or you can just pick some wild berries and make your own - it ain't rocket science. Good booze, on the other hand, you gotta shop around for to get the best prices. I don't have the facilities to make rum, though I really wish I did. And it takes 2 years for the process to be complete. Yeah, I've read some books on the subject.

I can, and do make my own Kahlua, which can be made for about $3 a quart. Same holds true for Almaretta, about $4 a quart. Anyone that want the recipes I'll be more than happy to post them. I've made homemade beer, but that's not really something you want to do on a boat because of the rocking motion. The keg needs to be still in order for the fermentation process to work properly.

Now, I know how to fish, and most of the time can catch any species I'm after. I've also lived off wild game, ducks, geese, squirrel, rabbit, venison, moose, elk, mountain goat, Dall sheep, quail, pheasant - they're all good when properly prepared. But, like any food, preparation is the key to success. And, I'm one of those individuals that sincerely believes garlic should be included as a basic food group.

If your boat does not have a refrigerator/freezer onboard, you, realistically, cannot live aboard - it's that simple. Yeah, I know people that store eggs in waxed paper in their bilge, but I, personally, wouldn't do that. A bilge, even the cleanest bilge, is a nasty breeding grounds for various forms of bacteria. It's damp, dark and nasty on it's best day, and it's anything but clean, let alone sterile. IMHO, having worked in the medical field for 15 years of my life, would not subject anyone to perishable food that I had carefully stored in a sealed plastic container from my bilge. If you want to find out what's growing down there, get your self a culture kit, swab the bilge and have it cultured at one of the labs - it's not all that expensive. Once you get that culture back I can guarantee you that you will never store food in the bilge again.

Canned goods are always a good bet for cruising. Like I said above, I purchased a case of Chef Boyarde large ravioli at BJ's Wholesale club, 12 cans for under $10. That works out to just over .80 cents for supper. Pick up a couple cans of grated Parmesan cheese to sprinkle on top. Until it's opened it doesn't need to be refrigerated. You can buy canned Extra-Large spaghetti and meatballs, Italian Sausage Ravioli, Dinty Moore Beef Stew, and a host of other canned items that can serve one person a full meal for under a dollar. The canned goods don't go bad, store easily in a number of places, don't attract roaches or mice, don't require water to cook, and they're easily prepared.

Canned meats, tuna, shrimp, sardines, sausages, chicken breast, turkey breast, all make great lunches. All you need to make them work is Mayonnaise and seasonings. Old Bay Seafood Seasoning, garlic powder, salt, pepper, dried onions, etc..., all the neat stuff to make them palatable and tasty, served either by themselves or on a sandwich. Again, the canned meats don't take up much space, don't require refrigeration, and can be stored just about anywhere.

I stored vacuum packed packs of imitation crab meat, various smoked sausages, mayo, cheeses, bread, onions, milk, beer, bottled water, dips, butter, egg beaters, breakfast sausage, bacon, and a few other perishable items in the fridge. In the freezer compartment, I stored frozen TV dinners, most of which I found on sale for under $2 each, and a bunch for just $1. Now, I know most folks are not fond of TV dinners, but over the years they've really improved quite a bit - you will be pleasantly surprised when you try them.

Cooking a TV dinner does not require a microwave oven. Several years ago, i developed a neat gadget made from a length of brass brazing wire that make the task quick and easy. Merely pour about 1-inch of water in the bottom of a large saucepan, then using the lifting device in the photo, lower the TV dinner into the water, put the lid on the pot and bring the water to a gentle boil. Within 10 to 15 minutes, the TV dinner will be piping hot, the same as if you cooked it in a microwave. The device allows you to easily and safely lift the TV dinner from the pot using nothing more than a piece of paper towel to prevent your fingers from getting scalded on the wire.










When I decided to have fish for supper, it was merely a matter of which species I wanted to eat that night. While in Florida, it was just a matter of anchoring over one of the open sand patches between the reefs, baiting up a 1/0-wide-gap hook with a strip of frozen squid and lowering it to the bottom. Within seconds a feisty, flannel-mouthed or French grunt was impaled on the hook, some of which measured 12 or more inches in length. You can easily catch a dozen or more in less than a half hour. At times, the grunts were mixed with mangrove snapper, yellowtail snapper and Spanish mackerel, all of which went into the cooler chest. When I had enough fish, the next step was to skin and fillet my catch, rinse the fillets, and pack them in Zip-Loc plastic bags. That night, I would make some fresh cracker crumbs from either Ritz or Saltine Crackers and a rolling pin, dip the fillets in egg beaters, then roll them in the cracker crumbs and pan fry them in vegetable oil. Oh yeah!

For side dishes, canned veggies worked great for me. Canned potatoes, canned mushrooms, canned sweet potatoes or yams, canned carrots, canned green beans, canned peas, and asparagus all worked out just fine. Sometimes I would slice and fry the sweet potatoes in butter flavored pam, sprinkle them with a bit of brown sugar and cinnamon and oh my they tasted so good. For tarter sauce, I would use a couple tablespoons of Helman's light mayo, some sweet pickled relish, a dash of old bay and a pinch of garlic powder. I guess I thought I was living pretty high on the hog at that point.

I was never one for making bread aboard a boat - always thought it was a big waste of time and money. The bread you buy in the super market seems to last forever when refrigerated, stays fresh, doesn't get moldy, and takes up very little space. Don't get me wrong, I love the taste of warm, fresh-baked bread, but it's just not practical. Same goes for cookies, which many of the ladies on other boats brought to me regularly. I had fresh baked cookies at least three time a week. I loved them, but I wouldn't have wasted my time or propane on baking cookies.

I managed to catch shrimp on several occasions using nothing more than a cast net and flashlight. I shined the light in the water and when I saw a bunch of pink eyes looking back at me, I tossed my cast net over them. Sometimes the shrimp were too small to eat, but they made good fishing bait. Sometimes, though the shrimp were big and I stuffed them with imitation crab meat using a recipe that I have for making crab imperial. When I cooked them up everyone at the marina seemed to show up for the feast.

Once in a while I caught a nice king mackerel. I would skin and fillet the fish, then rinse the fillets, place them on the boat kettle grill, cover them fillets with a 1/8-inch layer of lite mayonnaise, then sprinkle on some Old Bay Seafood Seasoning. Everyone downwind of the grill suddenly appeared at the boat with drinks and side dishes in hand. When the fish was thoroughly cooked, I put the fillets on a huge platter and we had a big feast at the marina's tiki hut.

I caught a big lobster from the sea wall one day, it was crawling up the wall just before dark and I nailed it with my homemade gaff. Sure was tasty, but unfortunately, the season had closed two weeks earlier, at least that's what the local Sheriff's Deputy told me. Fortunately, I ate the evidence, but he saw the shell in the dumpster and heard rumors that I had lobster for dinner. 

One afternoon the local Wynne Dixie had fillet Mignon on sale for $6.99 a pound if you purchased the entire tenderloin, which was about $65. I figured, what the Hell, I might as well splurge a bit. When I got back to the boat, I used my fillet knife and cut it into inch-thick steaks, trimmed off the fat and vacuum sealed the steaks individually in freezer bags, then placed them in the freezer with the TV dinners. I also cut one steak into cubes. That night, I sliced some fresh Vidilia onion, some red and orange bell peppers, and some big mushrooms, created my own ka-bob, basted everything on the shish-ka-bob skerer with Yoshida Gourmet sauce and sprinkled on some Montreal steak seasoning. Thought I died and went to heaven - it was that good. One of the ladies that worked in the marina office stopped by with a Margaretta and joined me for dinner that evening.

Now, that fillet Mignon blew the hell out of that week's food budget, but at that point I really didn't care. Plus, I had enough steak in the freezer for many, many steak dinners. When my friends from Poland came down to Marathon for a visit, they thought I was living like a king because of all the great meals I was able to prepare. Steak, lobster, shrimp, fresh fish, and best of all, they loved the Polish Kielbasa I found in the local grocery store. It had been smoked to perfection and when served piping hot from the kettle grill, the aroma would drive you crazy. Lord that made a great entree.

Hope some of the above will be beneficial for those thinking about cruising south next winter.

Gary


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## Tenoch

Some great info here...except for this 



travlineasy said:


> If your boat does not have a refrigerator/freezer onboard, you, realistically, cannot live aboard - it's that simple.


People have been cruising without refrigeration since...well...before Magellan.


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## barefootnavigator

Crusier, my budget does not even closely resemble my purchase or refit costs. I chose to purchase the most expensive boat ever built pound for pound and have dropped a fortune outfitting her, not on fancy gizmos or electronic but by artfully making her one tough beautiful and simple boat. I believe in purchasing locally so I cant just walk down to my local Westy and buy fittings. 90% of the refit has been done with locally casted or fabricated parts. Its been really frustrating but the end result has been worth it. I'm 2.5 years into a 10 year refit at the rate I'm going. I had refrigeration and took it out, I had a chart plotter and removed it along with two vhf's I stripped everything off the boat that wasn't up to my standards and plan on replacing then as needed. I like staying in one area long enough to really explore it and plan on stopping every few years work on boat and earn a bit of cash.

P I'm going on year five being aboard full time with no refrigeration and could care less. I have also cruised Mexico and Central America and The Caribbean and Hawaiian Islands with no refrigeration. Some day I might add an ice box but as of yet it hasnt made it on the list.


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## Donna_F

travlineasy said:


> ...
> 
> If your boat does not have a refrigerator/freezer onboard, you, realistically, cannot live aboard - it's that simple. Yeah, I know people that store eggs in waxed paper in their bilge, but I, personally, wouldn't do that. ...


If you can get eggs that have not been refrigerated since they were laid, they can be stored for months without refrigeration if stored properly.

I wouldn't put them in my bilge, but otherwise, having eggs on board without refrigeration is doable.


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## barefootnavigator

I store all sort of yumminess in my bilges, they are bone dry and exceptionally clean, I keep them painted and they are no different than any of my lockers. For 6 month a year my bilge acts act like refrigeration, the other 6 months they are just cool. Lat year on the 4th I filled them with beer and ice, what a treat that was.


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## Donna_F

I should have clarified that I wouldn't store anything in *my* bilge because it is never completely dry. If yours is, I envy you. I could use extra space for wine.


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## travlin-easy

In reality, the Chinese Admiral Zeng He, was around long before Magellan and while he did not have refrigeration, he carried huge blocks of ice taken from the Highlands and packed in wood shavings to preserve some foods. Additionally, both he and Magellan had the ability to cure meats and fish with salt and smoking, which prevented mold from forming for a limited time, but not permanently. In reality, I don't know of anyone on Sailnet or any sailing forum that knows how to cure meats and fish by smoking and salting.

Zeng He and Magellan also carried live animals, chickens, dogs, goats and ducks for fresh food, without which they could not survive. Zeng He's ships were massive, had large crews, and some of those ships measuring more than 450 feet long, needed to be re-provisioned weekly, a process that was carried out at sea by transferring goods from special, provision ships that carried tons of food and water only. Each time the ships came to a new land, they spent months restocking their supplies.

Now, a final touch to this no-refrigeration story. Of the 80,000 crew members that sailed around the globe with Zeng He more than 50,000 of them died of disease and starvation. Same was true with Magellan. I wonder how many of those that perished would have survived had the ships been equipped with refrigeration?

And, Magellan did NOT discover the Straits of Magellan - the Chinese did in 1423, years before Magellan sailed through them. In fact, his crew was on the verge of mutiny believing they were sailing to their doom in a dead end river, when Magellan produced a map showing the straits did indeed pass through the end of the peninsula. This map of the world, created by Admiral Zeng He's cartographers was given to Magellan, and Christopher Columbus prior to their voyages. 

As for making a living while cruising, I have a great, marketable skill, which allows me to have fun and make a living at the same time. I'm a full-time musician/singer/entertainer. I've been doing this for a long time and it continues to grow in popularity everywhere I've traveled. My income is only limited by my marketing ability and whether I really want to work as much as other people want me to. I've performed in dozens of Marinas, restaurants, Tiki Bars, waterside resorts and booked many private parties from these venues. Sometimes I can make enough one night's tips to continue cruising, under power if necessary, for three to four weeks. I love singing to the ladies - most guys could care less if there is music at the tiki bar or restaurant.

Prior to this, I was a freelance writer for the better part of 35 years, writing outdoor columns and articles for a couple dozen publications, including the Washington Post, Baltimore Sun and York Dispatch. Mostly I wrote about fishing, boating, conservation and the outdoors in general, but as recreational fishing became increasingly expensive, and fish populations were wiped out systematically by commercial interests, fishing and boating were no longer a poor man's sport, and those publications either went out of business, or in some instances, concentrated on different outdoor activities where I had little or no interest or expertise. I wrote my last outdoor column for Ira Black's Noreaster Magazine three years ago. I wouldn't want to attempt to make a living as a print media writer anymore. Not only is it not as much fun as playing music and singing to the ladies, but I sincerely believe that those publications that still exist today are skating on very thin, financial ice. 

Back to refrigeration. If you're seriously thinking of being a long range cruiser, and I know several, all have refrigeration on their boats and none would not undertake those voyages without it. When the ice melts in your cooler chest, you're just plain out of luck. Today's refrigeration systems draw very little current and are extremely efficient - why not have refrigeration is the question you must ask yourself? Magellan didn't and he died pretty young.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Donna_F

Huh.


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## barefootnavigator

Maybe you can add a rubber corrugated mat and store the wine on top of it. I'm fortunate that I have a deck stepped mat and no engine.


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## travlin-easy

Donna, my grandfather never refrigerated eggs at his farm, he lived to a ripe old age, made his own moonshine, peach brandy, bathtub gin, and beer. When I was about 8 years old, he had my brother and I stay at the farm for a week. We found out how to determine if an egg was bad - you knew it the second you cracked the shell. He some bad ones so they all didn't hold up to non-refrigeration. And, there's a reason that egg producers refrigerate those eggs - I don't think they would if they didn't have to for a good reason. 

Gary


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## travlin-easy

barefootnavigator, I've owned 18 boats in my lifetime, and never, ever had a bone dry bilge. Apparently, you didn't when you put the ice and beer in the bilge - that ice eventually melted. 

Gary


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## Donna_F

Sorry, G. After a couple of glasses of wine the Magellan thing made my head spin.


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## barefootnavigator

Ok you've got me its always bone dry till it gets wet. I have two bilge areas an upper and a lower. The lower gets used but not for food


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## Minnesail

DRFerron said:


> Sorry, G. After a couple of glasses of wine the Magellan thing made my head spin.


It's from this book:
1421: The Year China Discovered America: Gavin Menzies: 9780061564895: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51hw3Q5mijL

It's fascinating, but generally not accepted as true. It would be really cool if it were true, though!


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## barefootnavigator

There is proof all over the world that its true and its awesome  Great book


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## travlin-easy

My upper bilge is only dry when I don't use the shower. The shower drains into the upper bilge, which then drains into the lower bilge and get pumped overboard by the bilge pump.

Cheers,

Gary


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## JonEisberg

MikeOReilly said:


> Agreed, although I can tell you that digital has become incredibly cheap. Not that I'm an advocate of 100% digital, but I purchased all the digital charts for Canada, and part of the US eastern coast for a total cost of ~$100. iNavx and their Navionics package (I think) gives me everything, so it is possible.


Thanks, guess I'm out of touch with what some charting software costs today. But I'm assuming you're speaking of digital for laptops/iPads, correct? My C-Maps for a Simrad plotter are still pretty pricey...

Just a matter of time before I have to start thinking about an iPad, I suppose... Still, I don't think I'll ever be able to bring myself to heading for a place like The Rock, without paper aboard


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## mitchbrown

You can download chart books from NOAA free of charge. Print them out and you have every chart you need in a smaller format. Then just purchase the full size charts of the more sensitive areas. On top of this you have your electronic charts which are also free from NOAA. and your good to go. Your investment can be very small


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## JonEisberg

travlineasy said:


> Back to refrigeration. If you're seriously thinking of being a long range cruiser, and I know several, all have refrigeration on their boats and none would not undertake those voyages without it.


You might be surprised at some of the cruisers who've chosen to go without refrigeration... Beth Leonard and Evans Starzinger are the first who come to mind...

Tom and Vicky Jackson on SUNSTONE have, as well... I'd say they might qualify as being considered "long range cruisers", no?


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## Bene505

travlineasy said:


> ...I found a Wallgreen Liquor store at the east end of Marathon Key that had the cheapest booze prices in the U.S.. A bottle of melon liquor was only $4, offbrand coconut rum $7 for a big bottle, and the grocery stores had Margaretta mix for just $6 for a large bottle. Sure makes great Green Coconut Margarettas&#8230;.


I was right there last week! Would have been good to know. 



> ...I got to watch moves on the PC using the free WI-FI access I found throughout the trip south. Just go to www.crackle.com ...


Thanks. I just signed up.

Regards,
Brad


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## JonEisberg

You know, when Lin and Larry Pardey appear to consider a budget of $12K/year to be at the low end of the spectrum, you've gotta think that cutting that figure in half just might be pushing the envelope, a bit 

And, this was written half a dozen years ago:



> We provide a rough formula for accessing what you might need for a cruising life in The Capable Cruiser, which is, unfortunately, out of print at the moment&#8230; "This formula assumes that few people will really change their basic tastes and desires drastically once they settle into cruising. People who liked wine with dinner will still drink wine, people who were avid magazine readers will still buy fresh magazines, people used to living like graduate students will know how to continue living at that level. So if you take your every day, on shore living expenses and subtract all of your automobile costs, two thirds of your clothing expenses, your home rent or mortgage payments, and your mooring costs, then add one third to your food costs, you'll come up with a close estimate of your eventual cruising costs over an extended period." In Cost Conscious Cruiser we discuss a lot of ways to keep costs under control. But the main things that determine costs are the size of your boat, your ability to fix or do without any gear that gives problems, your willingness to keep stays in marinas to a minimum and as stated above, your individual tastes. * We know of several folks enjoying cruising on $12,000 a year by keeping their boat small, and their systems and desires simple.* We know others who wish they had five times that.
> 
> Sailing with Lin & Larry Pardey


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## MikeOReilly

Thanks for all the good info Gary. I'm not convinced that a fridge is necessary, but I don't know b/c I'm not out there full time yet. Right now I only travel for ~30 days at one stretch, and know how do do so quite comfortably without a fridge, although I do start to miss the cold beer . As with so many cruising opinions, I think there comes a time when the only way to find out for yourself is to try it for yourself. 

Jon, I should have said that iNavX is an iPad app. It may also exist for other platforms. Anyway, the price of the app was about $50, and all the charts for Canada, including Great Lakes, west coast, the Maritimes and Newfoundland, cost me another $50. I'm not comfortable going with digital-only, but it allows you to be far more selective about the charts you absolutely need to buy.


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## blowinstink

christian.hess said:


> barefoot! share the recipes
> 
> I forgot to add that a pressure cooker is an absolute must have on any voyaging boat
> 
> at least for the euro and latin american way of cooking...
> 
> bean stew, meat stews, quick tuna pasta or rice, whatever...we used almost every day unless we had leftovers, and at costco or pricemart you combine this with a vacumm sealer for less than $100 and you got yourself what people in the middle ages would of created wars over...
> 
> you can dry cure stuff and vaccum seal and leave it in cabinets and storage and not worry about it till you are hungry
> 
> jerky meats, dried tuna, chorizo, serrano ham, all the good stuff, perfect to cheer you up mid ocean!
> 
> I remember my captain in the middle iof the pacific all of a sudden said screw it im doing paella! and bam, all he good stuff started coming out of the "closets" and maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan pair that with a warm beer(no refrigeration for beer) and it was HEAVEN
> 
> so it can be done guys
> 
> smooth sailing
> christian





JonEisberg said:


> You know, when Lin and Larry Pardey appear to consider a budget of $12K/year to be at the low end of the spectrum, you've gotta think that cutting that figure in half just might be pushing the envelope, a bit
> 
> And, this was written half a dozen years ago:


Beth Leonard's "Simplicity" in her Voyager's handbook is another more realistic picture of a low budget cruiser.


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## travlin-easy

I've always considered Lynn and Larry Pardey pretty smart folks. They really know their way around the cruising circuit a lot better than most - bet they have refrigeration, Jon. And you and I couldn't do without it, mainly cause I'm old and a lot smarter than I was was I was young and dumb. You and I both know you don't get this old by doing dumb things. 

Stay safe old friend.

Hey Donna, the only people that don't accept that information in Menzie's books are those that believe the world is still flat. There's a huge amount of documented and physical information, including DNA, that confirms everything in his and other books on this subject. Another great publication that I read several years ago was Fu Sang, How The Chinese Built America. It too is a great book and well documented by a huge amount of physical and documentary information, but there are naysayers that claim it can't be true for one reason or another. You can find Fu Sang free on Google Books if I recall.

Gary


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## barefootnavigator

Been on L&L's boat no refrigeration


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## Lou452

Ten things you need to know about hunger claims $0.25 will feed a child person for a day??? One in eight persons goes to bed hungry. Hunger is the most solvable chronic world problem. 
I think we need to define $500 a month as single. 
Can we get an idea as to cost per person 
Lets set a cost per person.
I wanted to put out some numbers 
$500 per month is $16.13 a day on average.
Lets call it $16.25 
This what you have for a daily budget or $6000 for a year 
What we need to assume is all bills are paid ? Boat registration tax and insurance and your own heath care ?
If you work three hours at $8 an hour pay tax 30% You have $16.80 
I would like to see numbers ... Boat cost/ diet/ port entrance & exit fee (other) 
Lin and Larry were twice the $500 cost. 
Thoughts, Lou[/QUOTE]


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## christian.hess

Tenoch said:


> Some great info here...except for this
> 
> People have been cruising without refrigeration since...well...before Magellan.


x2 what in the world makes you(previous post) think you cannot cruise without regrigeration? that is so off base especially on THIS forum it just baffles me

of course you can...have you read this thread?

drying foods, fishing, canning and making preserves..., salting foods are all centuries old, tech...diving for your lunch...hooking octopus...trading work for food, the list is endless!

PS. THE START OF GETTINGDEBT FREE IS TO CUT YOUR DAMN CREDIT CARDS IN HALF AND STOP BUYING **** WITH IT...end of story

Im debt free except for a mountain bike I just bought as a christmas gift for a hard season at the restaurant with 0 interest for 6 months

THATS IT...and my wife too

simple simple simple....live with what means you have and stop imitating and desiring what others "have"


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## christian.hess

DRFerron said:


> If you can get eggs that have not been refrigerated since they were laid, they can be stored for months without refrigeration if stored properly.
> 
> I wouldn't put them in my bilge, but otherwise, having eggs on board without refrigeration is doable.


eggs are sold WORLDWIDE at room temp, except for some places in north america(mostly the us)

the fresh eggs I get at the restaurant(organic btw since thats the norm here) are room temp...I leave them room temp, never have I had an issue with "salmonella or similiar stuff you see up north" and they have awesome ORANGE YOLKS! yeah!

same goes for cheese and dairy products, in france and europe etc...

an egg does NOT need refrigeration and wax paper prolongs its life tenfold...

refrigerating eggs is one of those huge stupid moves created to disinform the public


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## christian.hess

Lou452 said:


> Ten things you need to know about hunger claims $0.25 will feed a child person for a day??? One in eight persons goes to bed hungry. Hunger is the most solvable chronic world problem.
> I think we need to define $500 a month as single.
> Can we get an idea as to cost per person
> Lets set a cost per person.
> I wanted to put out some numbers
> $500 per month is $16.13 a day on average.
> Lets call it $16.25
> This what you have for a daily budget or $6000 for a year
> What we need to assume is all bills are paid ? Boat registration tax and insurance and your own heath care ?
> If you work three hours at $8 an hour pay tax 30% You have $16.80
> I would like to see numbers ... Boat cost/ diet/ port entrance & exit fee (other)
> Lin and Larry were twice the $500 cost.
> Thoughts, Lou


[/QUOTE]

the thing is they maintain a REPUTATION...I was on their boat twice at the port townsend boat show....the boat is a work of art...made my h28 look like crap...a lot of their money goes towars maintenance and UPKEEP

in any case they are also not as frugal as they make it seem...just because they are engineless doesnt mean they are thrifty...always

lastly you dont use budgets on a daily basis...because somedays you use a lot(like on a refueling or provisioning day) and others ZILCH

thats because cruisng is this way...you dont spend 10 dolars offshore a day...but you do spend 20 or so in a marina buying crap! sometimes that you dont NEED

basically this was my budget for a coast to coast cruise of the americas...through the canal

provisioning at EACH COUNTRY once:
$300 supplies(food is 200 of that amount)
zarpes and all checking in and out if country anywhere from $100 for a couple to $300
this includes boat
fuel $50(top off a mid size tank and 2 jerry cans of diesel)
miscellaneous stuff like water and or spares etc... $50

at each stop in said country you use money this way

water
fuel
food(eating out) costs per person go from $1 a plate to $5
beer(my crew was an aa, so no beer for me)
touristy stuff like park entrances, or taxi rides, or bus rides $10 or so per trip

add all this up and its over $500 yeah sure...

but that provisioning lasts you a long time, sometimes 2 countries or 1000miles of passaging etc...

now

say you arrive at a beautiful island you like and you love the place, the surf if you surf, the diving etc...

speak to locals, become friends stay a while

what happens?
your daily budget goes down to the basement cause you live off the sea and land...you barter, you trade, you fix other peoples stuff they pay you back in lobster and fish you thank them with shirts or cigarattes or some special glue to fix their panga...

the list goes on

lets stop thinkig in "numbers" but reality...the reality is if you live like the people surrounding you YOU BECOME THEM

THAT is the essence of cruising and sometimes goodbyes are too hard to say cause you have intertwined yourself with such beautiful people and cultures

places like that to me are sri lanka, yemen, some areas of french polynesia, the red sea, maldives...galapagos(but not the big island) and some remote islands in central america...

so thats my take on budgets

ps. how do you make $500?...well if you dont have a social security check coming in monthly or you dont have a business that gets you dividends every month or a nice 401k or savings account etc...then you must work while cruising

what jobs are out there?

fixing sails
cleaning bottoms
climbing masts
canvas work
WELDING is a big money maker
glass work
jewelry and art
man I could go on forever

this on a boat to boat basis...not as a worker in a marina in australia! thats hard...but robing graham did it back in the 60s! go figure


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## Tenoch

I agree that $500 is an arbitrary number. But if $500 is the bare minimum (I personally think its lower than this) then $600 would be the lap of luxury right? Hell that's a 25% increase. Sailing alone...if $500 is possible, then $600 with a nice box of cigars every month sounds a lot better. And if you could afford $700.....


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## Unkle Toad

On the egg thing. here in the US there are cleaning process that eggs go through it is believed by some that this takes off a protective layer which .. well protects the egg thus requiring refrigeration the rest of the world does not do this.

I read a long involved article on it a couple weeks ago but thats the basics so my thought is non organic in the US .. keep them in the cooler anywhere else kepp them where ever you want.


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## stagman

Just my .02 regarding diet, although I wouldn't recommend it, in some places you can find a packet of ramen noodles for $.10. Assuming you eat massive man sized portions, 2 packets per meal * 3 meals per day * 30 days/ month = $18 dollars for a month of food. Might not be fun and you might never want to see a noodle again afterwards, but it's doable. Assuming all you drink is water and the water is free. If you need to mix it up get a large thing of mixable lemonade, gatorade, etc, a few bucks for a months supply. Argue with me about that if you want, but solar>watermaker>water, i see water as 0 cost. 

Of course there's no rule you have to eat just noodles. I would wholly advocate searching for onions and spices to mix in and fish as well. Gotta have veggies and proteins, and the last most important food group BEER. Which leads me to ask, does anyone home brew aboard?

I won't attempt to comment on the boat stuff, I know nothing.

*Edit: On the refrigeration front, I remember a week when the fan-damily and I took a vacation to Lake Powell. I was 14 at the time. NOTHING on the damn boat worked- generator kept dying (faulty cooling impeller) and all the food in the fridge spoiled. Now on the other hand, we had 2 30 gallon coolers full of soda and beer. This was in the summer when temps easily break 90 degrees, and the coolers were on deck and in direct sunlight. After a week of limping around the lake (prop shaft failed in one outboard) half the ice that was in the coolers was still there. 

To this day the beer I had with my dad on that boat was still the coldest and best I have ever tasted. He would say the same. Bottom line- With good insulation, proper planning (Items you want on top, those for meals later on in the bottom) and discipline to only open the cooler 1-2x per day and for only a few seconds, anything should stay really damn cold for at least a week. And paying a few buck for a bag of ice a week versus dealing with a faulty and electricity dependent freezer is a tradeoff I can live with. I'm not saying it's better, I am saying its possible. 

Sidenote: I may seem uber cheap in this, and in truth I am. I am a graduate student at Vanderbilt (Finance) so I believe in pinching every penny personally and professionally. And I am hoping to be able to "just go" after my May graduation. So if I could get a decent boat on the condition I could only eat Ramen and whatever I could catch or barter for, I would be a very happy camper. As for how to make money while cruising and maybe just maybe use my degree I am all ears, although I am pretty sure no one wants to take advice from the 23 year old kid with long hair and a beard (I only get my hair cut once a year, and I can only assume that trend would continue aboard) on how to manage their investment accounts/kitties/etc.


----------



## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> what jobs are out there?
> 
> fixing sails
> cleaning bottoms
> climbing masts
> canvas work
> WELDING is a big money maker
> glass work
> jewelry and art
> man I could go on forever


This is something I'd like to hear more about. I'll need to find work as we move along. Lacking Gary's musical talents, I am interested in this list Christian. What else do people do to earn money or goods (barter) while underway? How do remain legal, and more importantly how do you avoid negatively impacting local workers?


----------



## Bene505

To me, we ought to be using dewers (think large thermos bottles) for our fridges, freezers, or ice chests. Heat leaking into our cold storage is a pain that is only offset by either more batteries & solar panels or ice purchases. Refrigerant lines would be run through the top of the dewer.

How would you like your freezer to use 1/20th the power? Or your ice to last weeks?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIQUID-NITR...97?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a1dfa2bc1/



















Or even better, have a custom dewer built into your boat -- weld up a large, stainless, double walled fridge and freezer, then suck the air out between the walls to a vacuum. Do the same for the lids, which would be firmly attached.

Regards,
Brad


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## christian.hess

Unkle Toad said:


> On the egg thing. here in the US there are cleaning process that eggs go through it is believed by some that this takes off a protective layer which .. well protects the egg thus requiring refrigeration the rest of the world does not do this.
> 
> I read a long involved article on it a couple weeks ago but thats the basics so my thought is non organic in the US .. keep them in the cooler anywhere else kepp them where ever you want.


thats exactly right they heat/ wash them, basically thinking like pastuerization regarding dairy

its so dumb when you think about cause I dont know many people who intentionally eat EGGSHELLS however on boats I have gotten some in an omellete here and there on a voyage

here an egg is fresh when feathers are still stuck to the eggs...how fresh? if the feathers arent DRY

jejejeje


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## Group9

I think that most of the people who think you can't live on $500 a month, have never been broke, or putting themselves through college.

There were months when I was an undergrad, when I would have thought I won the lottery if I had had $500 to spend. My last tax return, before I graduated, showed $2700 in income (1981). 

And the funny thing is, that my enjoyment of life since then, has not gone up anywhere near what my income has gone up by. I would rather be young and poor, than old and wealthy.

I used to tell my step-daughter in her twenties who would moan about a crappy job, and no money. "Take any female billionaire in her fifties or above, and ask if she would trade ages and net worth with you and see how fast they would take that deal if it were possible."

"Youth is wasted on the young." George Bernard Shaw


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## Donna_F

christian.hess said:


> eggs are sold WORLDWIDE at room temp, except for some places in north america(mostly the us)
> 
> the fresh eggs I get at the restaurant(organic btw since thats the norm here) are room temp...I leave them room temp, never have I had an issue with "salmonella or similiar stuff you see up north" and they have awesome ORANGE YOLKS! yeah!
> 
> same goes for cheese and dairy products, in france and europe etc...
> 
> an egg does NOT need refrigeration and wax paper prolongs its life tenfold...
> 
> refrigerating eggs is one of those huge stupid moves created to disinform the public


I agree. Fortunately where I live in the U.S. I have access to eggs that have not yet been touched since the chickens plunked them out.

I don't know if anyone mentioned it yet, but the book Amazon.com: The Care and Feeding of Sailing Crew, 4th Edition eBook: Lin Pardey, Larry Pardey: Kindle [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51xY0RIomxL has lots of advice on making food last.

Edit: Well. That formatting with the link sure looks crappy. All I wanted was a link, not the photo. Sorry about that.


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## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> This is something I'd like to hear more about. I'll need to find work as we move along. Lacking Gary's musical talents, I am interested in this list Christian. What else do people do to earn money or goods (barter) while underway? How do remain legal, and more importantly how do you avoid negatively impacting local workers?


hey mike

here is the deal:

when dealing with FRIENDLY people they respond in friendly ways....there are some places I think are hellish and I wouldnt dare set foot there again...

there was an island in costa rica not far from the nicaraguan border that was completely full of violent drunks...they had a red ey stare that scared the hell out of us and we left...no fuel no water just go!

I forgot to mention that there are a LOT of photojournalists cruising especially crewing on boats

they make money just ike you say from article to article

you need good pics, good writing and AWESOME stories that are NOT COMMON

so dont say I went to costa rica to swim with hammerheads(boring)

title it " a day in the life of teresita, national park curator of cocos island"

stuff like that

oh another money maker is spares...rigging, and spar work...

thats all the stuff cruisers want...so dont steal locals job, offer jobs that locals cant and wont do most of the time because they dont know how...

and teach them...do that and nobody will mess with you!


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## Don L

I don't understand this no refrigeration on $500/mo thinking. I have a huge freezer and frig on my boat and keep the boat out on a mooring. I run the system all the time without even being on the boat during the weekdays. My 460AH and solar panel runs it just fine.


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## Alex W

460AH batteries and the associated solar panels don't sound like a feasible system to maintain forever as part of a $500/mo budget. If this thread is going to remain honest it has to be about a continuous budget of $500/mo, not one where you spend lots of money outfitting and then live on nothing for some period of time until you have an expensive outfitting period again. If that were the game then it was won years ago by non-stop round the world cruisers who spend a year or more on the water without spending a dime. It was all spent before they left.

L&L clearly didn't have refrigeration when writing the Serrafyn books. The boat didn't even have electricity. In their cross-ocean trips they talk about the shift as they move from eating the last of the fresh food kept on ice to eating canned, dried, and other preserved foods.


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## MikeOReilly

Alex W said:


> 460AH batteries and the associated solar panels don't sound like a feasible system to maintain forever as part of a $500/mo budget. If this thread is going to remain honest it has to be about a continuous budget of $500/mo, not one where you spend lots of money outfitting and then live on nothing for some period of time until you have an expensive outfitting period again. If that were the game then it was won years ago by non-stop round the world cruisers who spend a year or more on the water without spending a dime. It was all spent before they left.


While I appreciate what you're saying Alex, I don't think we need such a hard line here. The subject line is "voyaging on $500/month." I'm looking for actual, practical examples and wisdom on how to sustain a life afloat. I agree we need to contextualize examples such as Don's here, but that doesn't preclude the idea of up-front investment to reach a sustainable level. After all, investing in an expensive piece of equipment that will last a long time can be part of living inexpensively.


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## stagman

MikeOReilly said:


> While I appreciate what you're saying Alex, I don't think we need such a hard line here. The subject line is "voyaging on $500/month." I'm looking for actual, practical examples and wisdom on how to sustain a life afloat. I agree we need to contextualize examples such as Don's here, but that doesn't preclude the idea of up-front investment to reach a sustainable level. After all, investing in an expensive piece of equipment that will last a long time can be part of living inexpensively.


Seconded. Before I succumbed to my sailing fascination I was big into building and racing muscle cars, notably my Mustang. My transmission was sticky and wasn't giving me the performance I wanted so I changed the tranny fluid with a cheap performance fluid- Royal Purple. A month later I am taking the transmission apart to replace fried synchros. I filled her up with AMSOIL (Highly recommend if they offer marine grade fluids) and it has been a dream ever since. Moral of the story, pay the extra $$$ when possible and get top quality parts. Do it right the first time and forget about it. It'll give you peace of mind and may be cheaper in the long run if you're not continually replacing junk with other junk.

I learned my lesson with RP and have bought nothing but top quality components since and 20,000 miles later I haven't had as much as a hiccup. I sought deals and bought used occasionally, but I always bought highest quality manufacturers products. Haven't replaced anything but tires (I can't seem to avoid the rears turning into slicks after 5k miles)

On the other hand, I know a guy with a Camaro who bought an el cheapo turbo and blew his motor on his first drag pass.

Not saying it's always gonna be like that and yes upkeep is key, but I will always spend a little more for the peace of mind alone.


----------



## newhaul

travlineasy said:


> In reality, the Chinese Admiral Zeng He, was around long before Magellan and while he did not have refrigeration, he carried huge blocks of ice taken from the Highlands and packed in wood shavings to preserve some foods. Additionally, both he and Magellan had the ability to cure meats and fish with salt and smoking, which prevented mold from forming for a limited time, but not permanently. In reality, I don't know of anyone on Sailnet or any sailing forum that knows how to cure meats and fish by smoking and salting. l:


I can foods in my pressure cooker just the same way my grandmother and folks did also I have been jerking and smoking meats since I was a little kid its actually very easy to do and as far as canning I have a pressure cooker that has a variable rocker I can do 5 10 or 15 pounds pressure takes 15 pounds pressure to get the heat needed to can meats like beef pork or chicken also with the pot roast plate you just ad about a half inch of water and spices the roast potatoes and carrots and cook under pressure for about thirty min and pot roast done to perfection and lots less fuel than any other cooking method. I grew up doing these things. My folks grew up during the depression and they still teach me things about how to live comfortable on next to nothing. Also fixed disability income says how much I have to work with. You just learn to live within your means I don't drink or smoke so that saves lots.


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## barefootnavigator

For anyone who hasn't read the l200 millionaire its a great story


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## MikeOReilly

Don0190 said:


> I don't understand this no refrigeration on $500/mo thinking. I have a huge freezer and frig on my boat and keep the boat out on a mooring. I run the system all the time without even being on the boat during the weekdays. My 460AH and solar panel runs it just fine.


What kind of cooling system do you have Don? What's it's draw? I have an older Barbour evaporator unit (I think). It draws 6-7 amps while running, and will cycle too much for my liking. We can keep up with it when the wind is blowing (we have a windmill), and I'm installing some solar, but I am likely either going to install a new unit, or go without (as we did on our previous boat).

In addition to the electrical demands of a fridge, I often read that fridge/freezers are the least reliable piece of equipment on most cruising boats. People report spending a lot of time, and $$$, maintaining and fixing them. I gather Gary and Don would say otherwise ... that they aren't a problem for long-term cruisers. Anyone else with experience?


----------



## newhaul

Here's something people keep talking about here is the high cost of major items that make a 500 budget unrealistic here's how to look at it correctly new sails for my islander quoted about 3200 for new main and 150 Genny now that is say a purchase every ten years so you do the math and 3200 devided by 120 months life expectancy and you get about 27 bucks a month to budget for the sail purchase its all just a matter of keeping track of expenses and doing the math. Here's an idea write down every purchase you make for a month and I'm talking every purchase you make even how much you spend on each can of soup and t the end of the month add it all up just to see where you are actually spending your money it amased me. Then think how much you would save with a good travel cup and a thermos they are good for hot or cold drinks and most places charge less if you have your own cup.


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## barefootnavigator

Mike, you could set it on a timer to shut off every night and turn on again in the morning.


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## barefootnavigator

New haul, sails don't wear at the same rate so you don't replace them all at once. If you spread it out over years it much less of a tax. I get the feeling that some people here think we are talking about setting off for 50 years on a budget of 500 bucks a month. If I have to stop and work every few years to earn extra for refitting so be it. I think many readers here are being too literal, there are no concrete answers the this number. I spend far less thee days, next year maybe more. When the wind changes trim your sails and run with it.


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## newhaul

barefootnavigator said:


> New haul, sails don't wear at the same rate so you don't replace them all at once. If you spread it out over years it much less of a tax. I get the feeling that some people here think we are talking about setting off for 50 years on a budget of 500 bucks a month. If I have to stop and work every few years to earn extra for refitting so be it. I think many readers here are being too literal, there are no concrete answers the this number. I spend far les thee days, net year maybe more. When the wind changes trim your sails and run with it.


Sorry my keyboard locked up had to reboot and edit my post and I know that wear isn't arbitrary I just used that as an example. Actually my current Genny is over twenty yeas old and still serviceable.


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## northoceanbeach

I spent about $500 a month last year or six months cruising in your area. I wasn't really pushing it too hard. I believe it costs far far less to liveaboard or cruise than it does on land. I have no idea why I read so much that it costs the same. It is way cheaper. 

On land I probably spend close to $100 on car gas a week alone. I think I spent about $30 a month for the boat. 

The main thing with me though is I want to have some money saved for backup. I don't want to always worry my engine will break and then I will be screwed. So while I would like I cruise cheaply, I still think you should set out with something set aside for emergencies. 

How much does cruising the Salish sea cost anyways?

I was going to list expenses but there aren't really any raises good and a little fuel that you have to spend.

I did do things to my boat last year, but I don't think any of it I had to. I'm still learning but j thing the costs of boat ownership are exaggerated. It's about the same as a car.


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## MikeOReilly

barefootnavigator said:


> Mike, you could set it on a timer to shut off every night and turn on again in the morning.


Yeah ... we'll likely do that if we keep this one. When on board we do turn it off over night.



barefootnavigator said:


> I get the feeling that some people here think we are talking about setting off for 50 years on a budget of 500 bucks a month. If I have to stop and work every few years to earn extra for refitting so be it. I think many readers here are being too literal, there are no concrete answers the this number. I spend far les thee days, net year maybe more. When the wind changes trim your sails and run with it.


My sentiments as well. Don't get hung up on the exact number. The point is to explore, and share, ways to cruise inexpensively and sustainably.

Of course things will break and will wear out. Sails, running and standing rigging, electrical and plumbing systems, etc. will all come to the end of their usable lives at some point. But if you can amortize those costs over long periods through quality purchases, good instal and maintenance, and wise use, then perhaps it is still possible to live cheaply.


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## barefootnavigator

It can cost as little or as much as you have. I had nothing so it cost nothing. When we made some money our costs went up, the more we made the more it cost. My boat is always in a sate of fully stocked or being stocked so that is a price I cant tell you. I have bottles of wine and beans that have been aboard for years. My boat is simple and almost zero maintenance so fortunately for me I don't have large expenses on that side. I'm cruising while refitting so things come up. 2.5 years ago I sold my oven wanting a better one but that never happened. I just bought it back for 127.50 and the guy completely rebuilt it. I'm getting a free new battenless main through barter and selling the almost new main that I have, battens are unsafe on a small boat offshore. I figure the sail im selling worth 1500, I will sell it for a grand and thats free money into the boat and not from the budget. I do quite a bit of barter.


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## Cruiser2B

One of the things I am trying to wrap my head around is this mandated healthcare issue that has now become law. This is cost me now nearly as much as your entire $500 budget. How are you guys addressing this? 

I believe this is relevant to the topic simply because I plan on staying a law abiding citizen of the US. This mandated health care sucks but like it or not you have to buy it...and I don't see it getting any cheaper.

Whats everyones plan for this? How much do you see your monthly budget increasing?

Thanks


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## bljones

northoceanbeach said:


> I spent about $500 a month last year or six months cruising in your area. I wasn't really pushing it too hard.
> 
> I did do things to my boat last year, but I don't think any of it I had to. I'm still learning but j thing the costs of boat ownership are exaggerated. It's about the same as a car.


No, it's not "the same as a car." You contained your costs by doing a very smart thing - you bought a small boat and spent money on it before leaving. But, by your own admission, you found that boat too small.
Also by your own admission, you weren't pushing it hard.

The cost of maintenance increases exponentially with the size of the boat. every piece, part and procedure is more expensive. You'll notice this with your next boat. It's one of the reasons why our next boat will still stay below 28' LOA.

Day sailing for 10 years will put much less wear on a rig than day after day pounding to windward. That's one of the reasons why a lot of cruisers who have purchased a "well-maintained older boat that the owner found he didn't use much, and used for day-sailing" find themselves fixing a lot of stuff, in a very short order, that they didn't think they had to fix before they left.


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## barefootnavigator

I pay my bills as I go, no health care. I take the best care of myself that i can. I don't live in fear of what could happen, the world may end tomorrow but we don't have end of the world insurance.


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## newhaul

Cruiser2B said:


> One of the things I am trying to wrap my head around is this mandated healthcare issue that has now become law. This is cost me now nearly as much as your entire $500 budget. How are you guys addressing this?
> 
> I believe this is relevant to the topic simply because I plan on staying a law abiding citizen of the US. This mandated health care sucks but like it or not you have to buy it...and I don't see it getting any cheaper.
> 
> Whats everyones plan for this? How much do you see your monthly budget increasing?
> 
> Thanks


My budget won't change any I am vet with via medical and when I go abroad there are us via hospitals all over the world I served 8 years in the navy.


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## Cruiser2B

barefootnavigator said:


> I pay my bills as I go, no health care. I take the best care of myself that i can. I don't live in fear of what could happen, the world may end tomorrow but we don't have end of the world insurance.


I am and was with you on that. My wife and I decided to pass on healthcare and just eat healthy and exercise...big risk considering the cost of an ambulance to just start with, but we took the risk, for last 4 yrs. We started this after reading _Voyaging on a Small Income_. Annie's philosophy was to save that monthly health insurance premium and keep it in your pocket instead of giving it away. So that's what we started doing. Honestly though, we never were able to save the full amount.

As of today you really don't have a choice, either have health insurance of approval or have IRS issuing penalties and taxes on you. I picked health care.

These are just the thoughts going through my head as we prepare to go cruising and do it frugally. $500 a month prolly wont work for us as well there are 2 of us. But under $1000 I could see as doable, but not with $400-500 being eaten by mandatory health care. Just thinking out loud and trying to see what other have planned for this expense.

Thanks


----------



## Cruiser2B

newhaul said:


> My budget won't change any I am vet with via medical and when I go abroad there are us via hospitals all over the world I served 8 years in the navy.


I served 10 yrs, my wife served 6, both in Navy. We both applied for VA health care benefits. Basically a plan that the veteran pays a co-pay for services at VA and meets AHA standards, VA tier 7 or 8 I think.

We were denied because we made too much money....we have reapplied. Sad truth is these benefits are slowly fading.

Yes, I should have done 20. I made E-6 in 5 Years, missed Chief first time up, got pissed and started a business. Business did quite well for 6 years until crash in 2008. I would have retired this past July and I'd be cruising instead of planning and typing. Hind sight is always 20/20....so moving on


----------



## travlin-easy

Cruiser2B said:


> One of the things I am trying to wrap my head around is this mandated healthcare issue that has now become law. This is cost me now nearly as much as your entire $500 budget. How are you guys addressing this?
> 
> I believe this is relevant to the topic simply because I plan on staying a law abiding citizen of the US. This mandated health care sucks but like it or not you have to buy it...and I don't see it getting any cheaper.
> 
> Whats everyones plan for this? How much do you see your monthly budget increasing?
> 
> Thanks


For old codgers like me, medicare takes care of most of the problems, and my supplemental Blue Cross/Blue Shield kicks in after I shell out $2,000 a year, which is chump change in the world of medical bills. But, that equates to nearly $200 a month when you put it into a budget, plus the cost of the plan, which is another $60 per month. So now, more than half that $500 budget just got shot to Hell on medical expenses, and that's if you don't get sick.

Additionally, ALL boats need repairs and maintenance. I just shelled out $265 for a new cutlass bearing. Fortunately, the boat was already on the hard for winter storage or you would have to add pullout fees to that price tag.

Now, I love Margarettas - especially Green Coconut Margarettas, but the cost is anything but cheap. Just checked my monthly tab for the fixings - right around $120, and I make my own Margaretta Mixer from scratch. So that only costs me about $3 a bottle to make a half gallon including the Tequila.

I change the oil on the A4 every 50 hours, which is only 3 quarts of oil. But oil ain't cheap, and I buy it from a parts house by the case to save money. No oil filter in an A4, so I mange to save a few bucks there, but the oil is still nearly $40 a case and it don't take long to put 50 hours on the engine while cruising. Yeah I know, you don't have a motor, but most of us do.

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## MikeOReilly

bljones said:


> The cost of maintenance increases exponentially with the size of the boat. every piece, part and procedure is more expensive. You'll notice this with your next boat. It's one of the reasons why our next boat will still stay below 28' LOA.


I think this is a very important point. Cost do go up rather rapidly with size. At 36.75' LOA our Rafiki is larger than I'd like from an expense side of thing. However, I believe it is the smallest boat that makes sense for me and my partner, given what we want to do. Time will tell if we've hit the sweet spot.

I like your point about wear and tear. Our limited cruising so far embraces my signature line; we go slow. We're not out to break any record. We rarely have schedules to keep, and we're not in it to push ourselves, or our boat, beyond nice comfortable sailing. With this approach I hope we can limit equipment expenses.



Cruiser2B said:


> One of the things I am trying to wrap my head around is this mandated healthcare issue that has now become law. This is cost me now nearly as much as your entire $500 budget. How are you guys addressing this?


Canadian, eh 

I really feel for my Americans friends here. When I see the monthly costs you are expected to bear, I just shudder. There is no way I could afford that kind of expense. It's simply crazy...

That said, I am faced with the reality of travelling through your wonderful country on my way south. I worry about what to do. I suspect we'll have to purchase evac insurance, and (unfortunately) plan to limit our stay in your country. The good news is that medical costs are a lot cheaper just about everywhere else in the world. We just have to get through the US in one financial piece....


----------



## newhaul

Cruiser2B said:


> I served 10 yrs, my wife served 6, both in Navy. We both applied for VA health care benefits. Basically a plan that the veteran pays a co-pay for services at VA and meets AHA standards, VA tier 7 or 8 I think.
> 
> We were denied because we made too much money....we have reapplied. Sad truth is these benefits are slowly fading.
> 
> Yes, I should have done 20. I made E-6 in 5 Years, missed Chief first time up, got pissed and started a business. Business did quite well for 6 years until crash in 2008. I would have retired this past July and I'd be cruising instead of planning and typing. Hind sight is always 20/20....so moving on


I'm a tier 2 due to a cat 5 typhoon in the late 80's


----------



## Cruiser2B

MikeOReilly said:


> Canadian, eh
> 
> I really feel for my Americans friends here. When I see the monthly costs you are expected to bear, I just shudder. There is no way I could afford that kind of expense. It's simply crazy...
> 
> That said, I am faced with the reality of travelling through your wonderful country on my way south. I worry about what to do. I suspect we'll have to purchase evac insurance, and (unfortunately) plan to limit our stay in your country. The good news is that medical costs are a lot cheaper just about everywhere else in the world. We just have to get through the US in one financial piece....


I hear you and wish we could mirror the system you have up there. Unfortunately, no one will get rich off the backs of the working like that, so no, we will not be using this system here.

I know health care is cheaper, but as a law abiding american citizen I have to pay into the system...What I am unsure of is how I will pay for it while cruising. just another kink to work out. Wish there was some good advise from someone who is actually fitting this into their $500 budget.


----------



## newhaul

I change the oil on the A4 every 50 hours, which is only 3 quarts of oil. But oil ain't cheap, and I buy it from a parts house by the case to save money. No oil filter in an A4, so I mange to save a few bucks there, but the oil is still nearly $40 a case and it don't take long to put 50 hours on the engine while cruising. Yeah I know, you don't have a motor, but most of us do.

Cheers,

Gary [/QUOTE]

The cost of oil goes down the more you buy at a time when i still had several trucks I bought it in drums and cost was under two bucks per qt when purchased in 35 gallon drum now that's more than you will ever use but in a five qt jug from wally world or orielly auto right now on sale for 12.99 here that works out to about 2.60 per qt and that's almost half the per qt cost just get two and your set for years ( three oil changes)


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## mitchbrown

I've checked into the new health care law and the online help that's available. To my understanding of it, if you make less than 20,000 dollars you should qualify for a subsidy that will make the cost to you near nothing. If you make 6000 per year, you for sure qualify for 100% subsidy and should be paying nothing.


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## barefootnavigator

Mitch while it may cost me nothing to me it will cost my fellow countrymen dearly. ACA will financially destroy all of us so rather than take the easy way out I have opted out of the system. PS aca will not cover you outside of US as far as I understand. Its just one more freedom that has been stolen from us.


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## Don L

You know I just don't really see much reason to play in this thread. In the end I just don't believe you can cruise on $500/mo unless you started with all upgrades done to the boat and new equipment. Then you go out cruising but don't maintain the boat beyond the absolute minimum and then throw it away at the end.

If someone really has done this RECENTLY please post a breakdown of costs! AND hanging out in some out of the way place in Costa Rico etc ISN'T cruising, it is living on a boat somewhere.

BTW - Mike I have an AB system that is really a freezer with a spill over system with fan between the boxes. It uses around 6 amps when running and uses around 60-70AH/day once the stuff inside is cold. There is a whole thread on CF that I'm sure you saw.


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## newhaul

Everyone pays for your medical reguardless of who pays the insurance premiums where do you think the money comes from to pay the doctors for that 12 grand charge for the MRI you just had. it comes from the other people that are paying premiums and not getting sick


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## mitchbrown

barefootnavigator said:


> Mitch while it may cost me nothing to me it will cost my fellow countrymen dearly. ACA will financially destroy all of us so rather than take the easy way out I have opted out of the system. PS aca will not cover you outside of US as far as I understand. Its just one more freedom that has been stolen from us.


Your intentions are admirable. But don't forget that it was your fellow Americans that voted for Obama and health care reform. And to reaffirm it they re-elected him for a second term. Never forget that your fellow Americans are the government and vice-a-versa. When you say another freedom has been taken away from you, it was your fellow Americans that did that as well. I hope this isn't to political. Just the facts Jack.


----------



## Cruiser2B

mitchbrown said:


> I've checked into the new health care law and the online help that's available. To my understanding of it, if you make less than 20,000 dollars you should qualify for a subsidy that will make the cost to you near nothing. If you make 6000 per year, you for sure qualify for 100% subsidy and should be paying nothing.


This is the way I understand it too, But as other have pointed out $500 is just an average, I may get a job for a year or 2 to build cruising kitty, subsidy gone.

I just wanted to know had anyone taken this or applied for subsidy to cruise on $500/mth?

I am not a cruiser, but working my way to become one. These health care questions I have for those supposedly doing it, are just a few of many questions. Many of them have been answered, especially about provisioning. 
I decided to get in on this thread because the one on CF exploded...and fast and I could not keep up.

I am just trying to learn before taking the plunge

I have a question, do Lin and Larry still cruise? if so, are they still able to do it as frugally as they once did? have they posted cruising costs in last 10 yrs?

Thanks


----------



## Lothario

Love this thread..i'm in the same boat...(sorry I couldn't resist!) Moving onto my 32 Islander by the end of this month from a well appointed apartment. I read a book called, "Do what you love, and the money will follow", and it was a shift from chasing money at all costs, to following your heart and pursuing what you love. I'm of course choosing the latter. You will be fine! Situations and people will come into your life that will provide everything you need and more..have faith.


----------



## barefootnavigator

I agree with everything that you said but that still doesn't change the fact that ACA is a stolen freedom or the fact that I will never take part in it or the fact that is will financially destroy America.

“Let me get this straight. We have been gifted with a health care plan 
written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn’t understand it, 
passed by a Congress that hasn’t read it but exempts themselves from it, to be signed by a president who also hasn’t read it and who smokes, 
with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn’t pay his taxes, 
to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a 
country that’s broke. What the hell could possibly go wrong?”


----------



## stagman

mitchbrown said:


> Your intentions are admirable. But don't forget that it was your fellow Americans that voted for Obama and health care reform. And to reaffirm it they re-elected him for a second term. Never forget that your fellow Americans are the government and vice-a-versa. When you say another freedom has been taken away from you, it was your fellow Americans that did that as well. I hope this isn't to political. Just the facts Jack.


At the risk of getting more political, the problem is the majority of the population is uninformed and uneducated. There are some stats out there that are shocking. The most common response to why people voted for Obama: I felt like he cared more about me than Romney.

It's easy to buy uneducated votes with promises of free stuff. The right course economically is often harder and involves more pain, and people don't want to vote for that. If you need proof, look at how popular Angela Merkel and the Germans are in Europe- and yet they love the socialist French.

Why do I want to go cruising? I love sailing and it looks like a grand adventure yadda yadda yadda. But I also believe the US is broken, and I want to get away and off the grid. And while I could get a very comfortable job paying 125k at age 25, I am not going to because I am philosophically opposed to working and being villified, penalized, and taxed to death by the left and their populist class warfare agenda.

Who is John Galt?


----------



## Andrew65

Cruiser2B said:


> This is the way I understand it too, But as other have pointed out $500 is just an average, I may get a job for a year or 2 to build cruising kitty, subsidy gone.
> 
> I just wanted to know had anyone taken this or applied for subsidy to cruise on $500/mth?
> 
> I am not a cruiser, but working my way to become one. These health care questions I have for those supposedly doing it, are just a few of many questions. Many of them have been answered, especially about provisioning.
> I decided to get in on this thread because the one on CF exploded...and fast and I could not keep up.
> 
> I am just trying to learn before taking the plunge
> 
> I have a question, do Lin and Larry still cruise? if so, are they still able to do it as frugally as they once did? have they posted cruising costs in last 10 yrs?
> 
> Thanks


Lin and Larry are sailing and doing seminars, but have put Taleisin up for sale recently. I`m fb friends with Lin. She posted it about a month ago.


----------



## barefootnavigator

Stagman you are far too brilliant for your young age. Step off the cliff and the net will appear. Most people live their lives in complete fear but obviously you are not one of them.


----------



## Andrew65

I wrote earlier that I`d put my information about my yuloh for those who were asking for information. Check out "Low Buck Projects# Post #945 for it. I put it there so as not to step on your thread Barefootnavigator. Besides, that is where it should be. At least, I think so. Now I have to figure out how to post some pictures of it.

If you got any question, fire away.
Andrew


----------



## bljones

barefootnavigator said:


> I agree with everything that you said but that still doesn't change the fact that ACA is a stolen freedom or the fact that I will never take part in it or the fact that is will financially destroy America.
> 
> "Let me get this straight. We have been gifted with a health care plan
> written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it,
> passed by a Congress that hasn't read it but exempts themselves from it, to be signed by a president who also hasn't read it and who smokes,
> with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes,
> to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a
> country that's broke. What the hell could possibly go wrong?"


In other words, it is exactly like every other piece of legislation ever written and passed, including the stuff you DO like.
Insuring Americans will not destroy America- arguing politics in the "General Discussion" forum will.


----------



## bljones

stagman said:


> Who is John Galt?


A fictional character. People tend to forget that part.


----------



## barefootnavigator

Did I just get grounded on sailnet??? For **** sake!


----------



## blowinstink

Cruiser2B said:


> I am just trying to learn before taking the plunge
> 
> I have a question, do Lin and Larry still cruise? if so, are they still able to do it as frugally as they once did? have they posted cruising costs in last 10 yrs?
> 
> Thanks


There are lots of people who have posted their actual cruising costs (search threads and google). For me, the most value comes -- not from picking the most frugal or lowest cost budgets but -- from looking at a variety of cruising budgets and comparing those expenses to the the things that you hope for out of the cruising experience. If they are spending $18 a month on food eating 3 packs of Ramen a day and that is what you want out of cruising, then that part of that budget may be appropriate for you. If you want to eat out 1-2x a month and eat foods you like at home and that budget is $12 a day, then you'll know that is more realistic. We all have different priorities (hard costs on boat maintenance may be less elastic . . .). There is no place less appropriate for rose colored glasses than budgeting. I don't think that is bad news, just reality.
-M


----------



## newhaul

bljones said:


> A fictional character. People tend to forget that part.


Actually he was a Scottish novelist i n the late 1700 and early 1800 's


----------



## Minnesail

newhaul said:


> Actually he was a Scottish novelist i n the late 1700 and early 1800 's


Yeah, but! That's not the John Galt people are referring to when they chant "Who is John Galt?"


----------



## JonEisberg

barefootnavigator said:


> Mitch while it may cost me nothing to me it will cost my fellow countrymen dearly. ACA will financially destroy all of us so rather than take the easy way out I have opted out of the system. *PS aca will not cover you outside of US as far as I understand. Its just one more freedom that has been stolen from us.*


Are we to presume you had an affordable healthcare insurance plan that covered you outside of the US beforehand, that was taken away from you by the passage of Obummercare?


----------



## jraymer

newhaul said:


> Actually he was a Scottish novelist i n the late 1700 and early 1800 's


Actually, he was a fictional character in atlas shrugged.

Jim.


----------



## JonEisberg

stagman said:


> Why do I want to go cruising? I love sailing and it looks like a grand adventure yadda yadda yadda. But I also believe the US is broken, and I want to get away and off the grid. And while I could get a very comfortable job paying 125k at age 25, I am not going to because I am philosophically opposed to working and being villified, penalized, and taxed to death by the left and their populist class warfare agenda.
> 
> Who is John Galt?


If you were earning $100K today, your individual effective tax rate would be roughly 21.5%...

At the midpoint of Ronald Reagan's Presidency, that same income adjusted for inflation would have been 6% points higher...

However, carry on, don't let any facts get in the way... 

Here?s the US tax rate on your income for every year since 1913 ? Quartz


----------



## barefootnavigator

Yes its called the financial responsibility pay as you go care act. It has cost me less than 500 in the last 20 years. Now I am being illegally taxed and forced to pay a fine on something I don't need and can't use.


----------



## newhaul

jraymer said:


> Actually, he was a fictional character in atlas shrugged.
> 
> Jim.


I know to which galt they are referring but with my Scottish heritage I had to do it :laugher


----------



## JonEisberg

barefootnavigator said:


> Yes its called the financial responsibility pay as you go care act. It has cost me less than 500 in the last 20 years. Now I am being illegally taxed and forced to pay a fine on something I don't need and can't use.


Well, I just hope your excellent health continues indefinitely...

That "Pay as you Go" approach doesn't work out so well for tens of millions of American adults each year - even those who actually HAVE health insurance policies...

Medical Bills Are the Biggest Cause of US Bankruptcies: Study



> Bankruptcies resulting from unpaid medical bills will affect nearly 2 million people this year-making health care the No. 1 cause of such filings, and outpacing bankruptcies due to credit-card bills or unpaid mortgages, according to new data. And even having health insurance doesn't buffer consumers against financial hardship.
> 
> ...
> 
> Even outside of bankruptcy, about 56 million adults-more than 20 percent of the population between the ages of 19 and 64-will still struggle with health-care-related bills this year, according to NerdWallet Health.
> 
> And if you think only Americans without health insurance face financial troubles, think again. NerdWallet estimates nearly 10 million adults with year-round health-insurance coverage will still accumulate medical bills that they can't pay off this year.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Can I suggest that those who wish to debate the politics of American healthcare, start another thread? There are some valuable things to learn from all of us. Derailing into into a local political discussion will kill the thread  

Please...


----------



## JonEisberg

MikeOReilly said:


> Can I suggest that those who wish to debate the politics of American healthcare, start another thread? There are some valuable things to learn from all of us. Derailing into into a local discussion will kill the discussion
> 
> Please...


Yeah, even though healthcare is a huge component of any cruising budget and planning - particularly for Americans - that's a good idea...

So, I'll take the pledge, I'm finished...


----------



## barefootnavigator

I'm out too


----------



## mitchbrown

MikeOReilly said:


> Can I suggest that those who wish to debate the politics of American healthcare, start another thread? There are some valuable things to learn from all of us. Derailing into into a local political discussion will kill the thread
> 
> Please...


Agreed, also apologize for any part I have had in fueling the fire. I have enjoyed this cordial thread concerning cruising budgets and hope we haven't killed it


----------



## MikeOReilly

JonEisberg said:


> Yeah, even though healthcare is a huge component of any cruising budget and planning - particularly for Americans - that's a good idea...
> 
> So, I'll take the pledge, I'm finished...


Thanks Jon. I certainly think discussing the challenge of healthcare costs are perfectly fine here. We all have to answer this question somehow. It's the unique American politics of the discussion that is better debated somewhere else.


----------



## Lou452

It seems to me $500 a month can not be laid out on a spread sheet I think someplace and someone is living on $6000 a year even in the USA. It might be easy or harder to do this in parts of Africa. You might have to live on the edge, dodge bullets, Drink water that is not quiet safe, live with out Law.
Now this is also true for the USA. 
Bullets and crime are found in many places in USA. also.
Would post more but I need sleep. 

Good day, Lou


----------



## barefootnavigator

Ok kids lets blow through some of our hard earned minimal budget. Today I found 4 ABI bronze cleats in their original packing in a tiny forlorn chandlery. I don't need them but needs got nothing to do with it, I grabbed them all as they surly will make a great gift for some poor soul I come across on my voyage. They only cost me a hundred bucks but Id bet they will be worth a million to some young kids who are so close to finishing that dream boat yet so far away...


----------



## christian.hess

Cruiser2B said:


> One of the things I am trying to wrap my head around is this mandated healthcare issue that has now become law. This is cost me now nearly as much as your entire $500 budget. How are you guys addressing this?
> 
> I believe this is relevant to the topic simply because I plan on staying a law abiding citizen of the US. This mandated health care sucks but like it or not you have to buy it...and I don't see it getting any cheaper.
> 
> Whats everyones plan for this? How much do you see your monthly budget increasing?
> 
> Thanks


im confused if you dont currently live in the states or have been out for a while how in the hell could it be mandated?...im uterrly confused


----------



## christian.hess

Don0190 said:


> You know I just don't really see much reason to play in this thread. In the end I just don't believe you can cruise on $500/mo unless you started with all upgrades done to the boat and new equipment. Then you go out cruising but don't maintain the boat beyond the absolute minimum and then throw it away at the end.
> 
> If someone really has done this RECENTLY please post a breakdown of costs! AND hanging out in some out of the way place in Costa Rico etc ISN'T cruising, it is living on a boat somewhere.
> 
> BTW - Mike I have an AB system that is really a freezer with a spill over system with fan between the boxes. It uses around 6 amps when running and uses around 60-70AH/day once the stuff inside is cold. There is a whole thread on CF that I'm sure you saw.


you should read the thread a couple pages back..I broke it down from california to florida...and we didnt have insurance for the boat or US

edit my friend did dislocate a vertebrae..he was 76 at the time...he simply flew back to the us cause he didnt trust the doctors in panama he paid big time for that

wah wah

it was in 2002-02

cheers


----------



## newhaul

christian.hess said:


> im confused if you dont currently live in the states or have been out for a while how in the hell could it be mandated?...im uterrly confused


You must read cruser2b's posts close he hasn't been able to slip lines yet he still has kids in school . BTW how's your pupusa in your establishment I'm kinda stuck here but there is a little Mexican joint that also does fairly well on Salvadorian cuisine don't ask


----------



## christian.hess

yeah I saw that but not getting the rest I guess..

anywhoo

no pupusas at the restaurant, its spanish med cuisine, paellas and tapas but we just ate some with LOROCO a national green here with my wife and mom, and they were awesome!

jejeje


----------



## newhaul

christian.hess said:


> yeah I saw that but not getting the rest I guess..
> 
> anywhoo
> 
> no pupusas at the restaurant, its spanish med cuisine, paellas and tapas but we just ate some with LOROCO a national green here with my wife and mom, and they were awesome!
> 
> jejeje


Sounds delicious and like grandma wants more grandkids :laugher


----------



## Tenoch

A couple things about healthcare without being political...

1.In Washington if you make less that $1273 a month you qualify for expanded Medicaid. 

2. Part of the cruising budget must, whether you like it or not, include healthcare. Either here or somewhere else. Unless you NEVER intend to see a doctor or dentist for the rest your life. So...assuming you cruise outside of the States...Im wondering what a realistic personal health-savings-account would amount to. I mean if you included say $100 a month into a pot for the occasional broken bone, std, or inevitable liver disease...could this be adequate? 

(ok..I can't resist this. Just to be clear, I am MORE than happy to pay a little extra tax to ensure my countrymen, my neighbors, my family, my servicemen, my veterans, etc. can get chemo et. al. when they need it...this is not a pro ACA comment. Im all about single payer.)


----------



## ltgoshen

krisscross said:


> But if you are moving from place to place, you are bound to burn a good amount of fuel. I think $800 a month is more realistic.


20 gal tank 
X .5 per hour Gal's per fuel burn
5.5 miles per VMG = 220 mile rang per tank
so on $800.00 I could travel 1760. miles on $800.00 bucks
Price pre gal was on $5.00 per gallon?

And thats asuming that I never raise a sail.


----------



## guitarguy56

This is by far the best thread on the realities of letting go and trying to make it on little costs.

I am going to say for me and more of the realitistic costs of cruising... I and my wife have been saving for just that... we figure our costs to be anywhere from $1500 - $900 a month to cruise... this we base on energy, food, slip fees, country fees, and miscellaneous costs of maintaining the boat (not major retrofits or engine problems).

We are in our late fifties and have quite a bit saved and our SS income should be adequate along with our pensions to keep us going for a long time... we are lucky that we don't have to 'work' for income as we will have been done with try to make a living... 

I believe getting off the boat onto the various countries using car rentals, taxis, transportation (unless one walks), restaurants, and liquor (if one drinks) will be the drain on ones cruising costs...

I will be sailing a 32-35 footer when we shove off... for now we have a 25 footer and it's very, very low costs to keep in the slip... I imagine the 32-35 footer will almost double the costs to keep her but we have allowed for that... our cruising will most likely be the Carribbean and up and down the East coast so this is where most of the cruising costs will use up most of that money... this is living a better lifestyle than fishing for food, opening up cans of beans, drying fish, etc... although I wouldn't mind doing some of that I don't think our lifestyle would change much from what it is now... that is to be more realistic for us.


----------



## christian.hess

newhaul said:


> Sounds delicious and like grandma wants more grandkids :laugher


yes she invited so you know thats not good! jajajajjajajajaajaja


----------



## christian.hess

Tenoch said:


> A couple things about healthcare without being political...
> 
> 1.In Washington if you make less that $1273 a month you qualify for expanded Medicaid.
> 
> 2. Part of the cruising budget must, whether you like it or not, include healthcare. Either here or somewhere else. Unless you NEVER intend to see a doctor or dentist for the rest your life. So...assuming you cruise outside of the States...Im wondering what a realistic personal health-savings-account would amount to. I mean if you included say $100 a month into a pot for the occasional broken bone, std, or inevitable liver disease...could this be adequate?
> 
> (ok..I can't resist this. Just to be clear, I am MORE than happy to pay a little extra tax to ensure my countrymen, my neighbors, my family, my servicemen, my veterans, etc. can get chemo et. al. when they need it...this is not a pro ACA comment. Im all about single payer.)


I feel the same way, both here in el salvador and when Im up in the states...unfortunately I never had any sort of healthcare in the sates up till my late 20s and have never needed to have anything done drastically

I know many salvadoreans that either studided at major universitites up in the states and for some reason got sick or whatever and they woudl fly down quick and get treated by their family doctor and hospital of choice for pennies...

but I agree this thread is NOT about healthcare or health around the world and silimarities or differences

I think a post 2 up sums it up nicely

say $100 for cleaning teeth, or a quick check up monthly or whatever to a clinic wherever you are cruising is very sensible


----------



## MikeOReilly

Tenoch said:


> 2. Part of the cruising budget must, whether you like it or not, include healthcare. Either here or somewhere else. Unless you NEVER intend to see a doctor or dentist for the rest your life. So...assuming you cruise outside of the States...Im wondering what a realistic personal health-savings-account would amount to. I mean if you included say $100 a month into a pot for the occasional broken bone, std, or inevitable liver disease...could this be adequate?


Agreed. There will be healthcare costs at some point. In many ways it's just another risk assessment that we all have to make. At mid-40 I don't accrue $100 per month in healthcare costs. Maybe $25 if costs are amortized over the years (for glasses every two years, periodic dental cleaning, one Dr. visit, and some over the counter meds). Health costs associated with injury will be harder account for, but must be. A reasonable assessment might be to double your monthly bill, and save that amount in a health/crisis kitty.

Speaking of health costs, what do people carry in their medical kits? A good kit is essential when traveling off the beaten path, and will allow you to treat most injuries and illnesses without turning to professionals.

What does your kit contain?


----------



## tommays

I would say dental issues no matter how much care you give yourself is going to happen from time to time 

As far as medical kits the most prepared circumnavigators I know went so far as to take sutures training to be able to deal with emergency's


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Its a pity this thread is now just a health care thread.

Cant you guys ever give up and just realise the OP doesnt give a hot damn about filling his $500 budget wi $499 of health care?


----------



## Group9

I had no healthcare insurance from the time I was 21 until I was 26. I paid for everything out of my own pocket. There are a lot of gambles you take in life if you're really living it.


----------



## MikeOReilly

guitarguy56 said:


> I am going to say for me and more of the realitistic costs of cruising... I and my wife have been saving for just that... we figure our costs to be anywhere from $1500 - $900 a month to cruise... this we base on energy, food, slip fees, country fees, and miscellaneous costs of maintaining the boat (not major retrofits or engine problems).


I actually think this is going to be closer to our expose level when we first leave as well GG. I hope we can learn how to bring it down as we move further south, but our reality is that we must transit through the Great Lakes, out the St. Lawrence, then likely through the Maritimes and US eastern states. Once we leave the upper Great Lakes (Superior, Huron) I expect we'll be forced into marinas more than we'd like. So our first couple of years will be expensive. We'll have to find ways to manage the drain ...



guitarguy56 said:


> ... this is living a better lifestyle than fishing for food, opening up cans of beans, drying fish, etc... although I wouldn't mind doing some of that I don't think our lifestyle would change much from what it is now... that is to be more realistic for us.


An excellent point. The fact is humans don't change very easily, and rarely willingly. The lifestyle we have on shore will likely follow us on board. Best to realize this, and budget for it.


----------



## MikeOReilly

tommays said:


> As far as medical kits the most prepared circumnavigators I know went so far as to take sutures training to be able to deal with emergency's


I come at our sailing life from the perspective of wilderness travel. We used to canoe & kayak for up to a month at a time. During those trips we would be many days or weeks away from outside help so had to accept and certain amount of risk. We now mostly sail in pretty remote areas (north shore of Lake Superior) where assistance can be many days away.

We deal with this by being prepared for many acute healthcare problems (mainly injuries). But perhaps more importantly, we have to understand and assess the risk. And ultimately, we have to accept a certain amount of uncertainty -- a certain amount of risk.


----------



## JonEisberg

blowinstink said:


> There are lots of people who have posted their actual cruising costs (search threads and google). For me, the most value comes -- not from picking the most frugal or lowest cost budgets but -- from looking at a variety of cruising budgets and comparing those expenses to the the things that you hope for out of the cruising experience. If they are spending $18 a month on food eating 3 packs of Ramen a day and that is what you want out of cruising, then that part of that budget may be appropriate for you. If you want to eat out 1-2x a month and eat foods you like at home and that budget is $12 a day, then you'll know that is more realistic. We all have different priorities (hard costs on boat maintenance may be less elastic . . .). There is no place less appropriate for rose colored glasses than budgeting. I don't think that is bad news, just reality.
> -M


The other thing that seems to have been largely ignored in this discussion about "cruising" as an essentially generic activity, is that _WHERE_ you're gonna be cruising is likely the single biggest determinant of whether keeping to a modest budget is attainable...

$500/month certainly seems doable in a place like Mexico, probably the primary reason so many cruisers never get beyond places like that... In the States, Florida and the Keys are perhaps the easiest place to do it on the cheap... But, head to a region like Scandinavia, or the Med, even the Caribbean, and you are really gonna be challenged to survive on such a budget.

And, things continue to change, very quickly... 5 years ago Belize, for example, was very affordable... Now, with the institution of their cruising/anchoring fees, if you are compelled to comply with the letter of the law, most of that $500 will go towards the simple privilege of being in the country for a month...

The other big variable, of course, is whether your cruising style tends towards keeping on the move, or 'squatting'... Personally, I like to keep moving, so when I go into a place like Guatemala's Rio Dulce, it's gonna be for a comparatively short duration, compared to most hanging out there... Clearance fees for Guatemala have become pretty steep, so I paid pretty dearly for my 2 weeks in the Rio, compared to those who are squatting there, and are able to 'amortize' such costs over a much longer period of time...

Again, I have nothing but admiration for those who manage to sustain their cruising on such a bare-bones budget. But I think some like the OP might be in for a bit of a surprise when they eventually leave their own neighborhoods, and venturing further afield... Even under sail, going places costs money, and he's unlikely to find marinas that will comp his dockage for a month, for example...

The ultimate risk to heading out on such a tight budget, naturally, is that one might become 'trapped' in places like Mexico, or the Keys, lacking the funds to leave, and explore other venues that might even be only slightly more costly... The Rio Dulce is filled with such examples of 'cruisers' who've come in there, and are probably _NEVER_ gonna leave... That works for some, obviously, but I doubt that's what most of us here think of when we're speaking about 'cruising'...

One of my favorite guys on a modest budget was Jack van Ommen, who sadly lost his 30-footer last fall after years of some very impressive voyaging on his monthly Social Security check...

Fleetwoods Circumnavigation - Jack Van Ommens Travels


----------



## MikeOReilly

JonEisberg said:


> The other thing that seems to have been largely ignored in this discussion about "cruising" as an essentially generic activity, is that _WHERE_ you're gonna be cruising is likely the single biggest determinant of whether keeping to a modest budget is attainable...
> 
> The other big variable, of course, is whether your cruising style tends towards keeping on the move, or 'squatting'... Personally, I like to keep moving...


Really good points Jon. I believe (b/c I don't know yet) that low-cost "cruising" really involves spending long periods of time in one place, or one region. I would think that's the only way to afford the entrance fees. But perhaps more importantly, spending time is likely the best way to learn how to live cheaply.

It takes time to learn the good fishing places/techniques. It takes time to learn where food, provisions, and entertainment are cheap. If your time is limited (if you're always on the move), I imagine you're more likely to use services and stores that are immediately available, and probably easier to access. These will likely be more expensive.



JonEisberg said:


> The ultimate risk to heading out on such a tight budget, naturally, is that one might become 'trapped' in places like Mexico, or the Keys, lacking the funds to leave, and explore other venues that might even be only slightly more costly... The Rio Dulce is filled with such examples of 'cruisers' who've come in there, and are probably _NEVER_ gonna leave... That works for some, obviously, but I doubt that's what most of us here think of when we're speaking about 'cruising'...


This is an interesting perspective Jon. I haven't been out there yet, so my views may change, but from my current perspective I think it depends on why you are out there. For me, getting "trapped" in a beautiful place where I can sustain my lifestyle for a long time does not feel like a problem. Everyone is different, and as you say, everyone's goals for cruising are different. I guess it depends on who you are, and what you want to achieve.


----------



## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> I actually think this is going to be closer to our expose level when we first leave as well GG. I hope we can learn how to bring it down as we move further south, but our reality is that we must transit through the Great Lakes, out the St. Lawrence, then likely through the Maritimes and US eastern states. Once we leave the upper Great Lakes (Superior, Huron) I expect we'll be forced into marinas more than we'd like. So our first couple of years will be expensive. We'll have to find ways to manage the drain ...
> 
> An excellent point. The fact is humans don't change very easily, and rarely willingly. The lifestyle we have on shore will likely follow us on board. Best to realize this, and budget for it.


unfortunately THAT is the case so that why I beleive so many people argue the $500 amount, because they are too engrained in their lifestyle

but I have to argue man...why would anyone say a BETTER lifestyle when you are living with what nature and god provides you not some random costco supermegastore

I mean its free...hard workd yeah maybe sometimes but why monetize whats already there for the picking

I mean why care canned tuna...if youcan fish aji grade yellow fin for free!

why is micorwave popcorn a better LIFESTYLE than the above...why cause itys more convenient?

cruising is INCONVENIENT thats why when you visit a place you like and love you stay for a while, then the itch to sail bugs you and you have to leave

simple really


----------



## christian.hess

JonEisberg said:


> The other thing that seems to have been largely ignored in this discussion about "cruising" as an essentially generic activity, is that _WHERE_ you're gonna be cruising is likely the single biggest determinant of whether keeping to a modest budget is attainable...
> 
> $500/month certainly seems doable in a place like Mexico, probably the primary reason so many cruisers never get beyond places like that... In the States, Florida and the Keys are perhaps the easiest place to do it on the cheap... But, head to a region like Scandinavia, or the Med, even the Caribbean, and you are really gonna be challenged to survive on such a budget.
> 
> And, things continue to change, very quickly... 5 years ago Belize, for example, was very affordable... Now, with the institution of their cruising/anchoring fees, if you are compelled to comply with the letter of the law, most of that $500 will go towards the simple privilege of being in the country for a month...
> 
> The other big variable, of course, is whether your cruising style tends towards keeping on the move, or 'squatting'... Personally, I like to keep moving, so when I go into a place like Guatemala's Rio Dulce, it's gonna be for a comparatively short duration, compared to most hanging out there... Clearance fees for Guatemala have become pretty steep, so I paid pretty dearly for my 2 weeks in the Rio, compared to those who are squatting there, and are able to 'amortize' such costs over a much longer period of time...
> 
> Again, I have nothing but admiration for those who manage to sustain their cruising on such a bare-bones budget. But I think some like the OP might be in for a bit of a surprise when they eventually leave their own neighborhoods, and venturing further afield... Even under sail, going places costs money, and he's unlikely to find marinas that will comp his dockage for a month, for example...
> 
> The ultimate risk to heading out on such a tight budget, naturally, is that one might become 'trapped' in places like Mexico, or the Keys, lacking the funds to leave, and explore other venues that might even be only slightly more costly... The Rio Dulce is filled with such examples of 'cruisers' who've come in there, and are probably _NEVER_ gonna leave... That works for some, obviously, but I doubt that's what most of us here think of when we're speaking about 'cruising'...
> 
> One of my favorite guys on a modest budget was Jack van Ommen, who sadly lost his 30-footer last fall after years of some very impressive voyaging on his monthly Social Security check...
> 
> Fleetwoods Circumnavigation - Jack Van Ommens Travels


I posted a thread about jack and his lost boat...very little comments...goes to show how people react and think about certain things and lifestyles he was is a true budget cruiser...he was very rich once, lost it all, became very frugal and sailed brilliantly all over the world...only to lose his boat AFTER REFITTING on a reef in mallorca(I used to vacation there when a kid)

it borugh memories of that place...the poingt is to many jack was kind of like that guy who died in alaska and had a movie made out of him, you know

into the wilderness? to me jack had it right...that dude in alaska no, however themovie brought many passions inside me that in essence I hold dearly and that is to free yourself from common myths of society regarding how to live your life

my life isnt having 4 credit cards maxed out or eating wendys every day or having a fat kid and 4 cars in the garage

my life is different...no need to spend mega bucks to share the same waters as the megayachts

I saw tattoo(microsoft founder boat I think) for example when cruising 3 times...in dfferent parts around the world

french polynesia...thailand or therabouts and in the red sea...if I remember correctly and we could even see his sailboat on the deck ready for launch

just sayin

rio dulce to ME is a placeto avoid at all COSTS why because like jon said its a cruiser TRAP

great place to buy a cheap used boat so use it to your advantage, wink wink

again great thread


----------



## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> Agreed. There will be healthcare costs at some point. In many ways it's just another risk assessment that we all have to make. At mid-40 I don't accrue $100 per month in healthcare costs. Maybe $25 if costs are amortized over the years (for glasses every two years, periodic dental cleaning, one Dr. visit, and some over the counter meds). Health costs associated with injury will be harder account for, but must be. A reasonable assessment might be to double your monthly bill, and save that amount in a health/crisis kitty.


In my mid 40s I didn't have much in medical bills either. But guess want, last year I was 53 and had a heart attack. I guarantee that doubling your "reasonable assessment" will not help.

So back to cruising on $500/mo; if you are in your 30s, healthy enough to believe it will continue a little while, plan to eat rice and beans, have a small throw away boat that you don't plan to maintain, are basically planning to "camp" on a boat, well maybe you can do it for a while. In which case and it sounds fun to you I truly encourage you to do it. But if you are in your 40-60s it is time to be real.

If some of you would spend more time searching blogs by real cruisers you would know the real answer to the budget question. I was hoping to make do on $1500/mo but after research decided it didn't work in the long term.

With that said I understand that for lots of people the reality will never be able to stop a dream/fantasy.


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## Don L

I bet this guy thought he could do it on $500

Grounded sailboat's mariner recounts turbulent journey | News-JournalOnline.com


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## MikeOReilly

Don0190 said:


> ...With that said I understand that for lots of people the reality will never be able to stop a dream/fantasy.


Don, this thread is meant to share ideas on how to live sustainably at a low monthly rate: "voyaging on $500...". All you're doing is saying why it can't be done. How about contributing positive ideas? If you have none, then perhaps you can learn something here (as I am doing).


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## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> Don, this thread is meant to share ideas on how to live sustainably at a low monthly rate: "voyaging on $500...". All you're doing is saying why it can't be done. How about contributing positive ideas? If you have none, then perhaps you can learn something here (as I am doing).


I feel I am contributing and posted how you can do it. But for most people I'm telling you the truth and if you can come up with anywhere near the number of real life examples of those doing it on $500/mo as I can those that thought so and failed I will give up.

I keep track of all my boat expenses (I do all my own work) and it has averaged about $11,000/year the past 5 years. Even if I take out all storage and marina costs, and all upgrades, it still costs about $4000/yr. That isn't going to leave much in a $500/mo budget.

So you may be able to live on a boat for $500/mo, you aren't going voyaging.


----------



## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> into the wilderness? to me jack had it right...that dude in alaska no, however themovie brought many passions inside me that in essence I hold dearly and that is to free yourself from common myths of society regarding how to live your life
> 
> my life isnt having 4 credit cards maxed out or eating wendys every day or having a fat kid and 4 cars in the garage


Without trying to get political about this, I think the real point here is that living inexpensively requires that we step off the normal economic and social path that is laid out for those of us who live in rich industrialized countries. It's not easy, nor is it even desirable for most people. That's OK. Everyone is different.

For me, it's about finding ways to have _enough_. My culture teaches me to always want more; more experiences, more gadgets, more money, more stuff. It's necessary for a consumer-driven capitalist economy. What I'm trying to achieve is the sense of having enough. For me, learning what I really need (as opposed to what I really want) allows me to live a simpler and less expensive life right now. I hope to carry than on when we move onto our boat full-time in six months.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Don0190 said:


> I feel I am contributing and posted how you can do it. But for most people I'm telling you the truth and if you can come up with anywhere near the number of real life examples of those doing it on $500/mo as I can those that thought so and failed I will give up.
> 
> I keep track of all my boat expenses (I do all my own work) and it has averaged about $11,000/year the past 5 years. Even if I take out all storage and marina costs, and all upgrades, it still costs about $4000/yr. That isn't going to leave much in a $500/mo budget.
> 
> So you may be able to live on a boat for $500/mo, you aren't going voyaging.


Can you share your accounting details. It would be great to have actual numbers to chew on.

I must say, I can't image how I would spend $11,000/year for five years ($55,000!) on our boat. And this from someone who's been upgrading our boat for the past three so we can move on board!

Is the $4,000 your cruising costs? Food? Fuel? I think you're a seasonal cruiser like I. Your season is probably longer than mine, but this still seems like a lot in my experience. I don't think I've spent $4000 in the past three years on our cruises (summer months, mostly on Lake Superior). Again, it would be great to see your details.

Don, I appreciate that you're trying to inject some reality in this discussion. My intention is not to wear any rose-coloured glasses when exploring these ideas. Reality is necessary. But there are other ways to live in this world. Lets all explore them.


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## JonEisberg

Don0190 said:


> I bet this guy thought he could do it on $500
> 
> Grounded sailboat's mariner recounts turbulent journey | News-JournalOnline.com


Oh, boy... good luck collecting the cost of an SAR mission from that moron 



> "Next time, I'm going to have a motor and a dinghy and I'll be good," he said.


I can't imagine how this clown made it up on the inside to New Smyrna and out of Ponce Inlet without an engine... He must have gotten some tows along the way...


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## barefootnavigator

Don, I'm doing it and have been for years even when I was at the dock. I also net many people on boats who were also out there some on even less. A good friend set off 3 years ago in his 38' cutter with $350.00 total life savings and a boat full of food. He left WA now is in the Philippians having the time of his life. I love how you say un maintained throw away boat. I have yet to see a single boat anywhere as well maintained as mine. Here is my recipe for disaster as you say. First off I donate 50% of my annual income to charity I have been doing this for many years. I take whats left over and fill 12 envelopes with $500.00 each. Anything that is left over goes into my emergency fund should I need it later. Because I'm till refitting my boat last year I decided to rob my whole savings and put it into the boat. I left penniless and had an absolutely amazing year. I'm rebuilding the kitty right now thats how it goes. They say 90 percent of people who want to cruise never leave the dock. The sentiment on this thread shows me why. As far as the whole health care issue goes I think if more people eat rice and beans and got a little sun and exercise there would be a lot less heart attacks in this world.


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## Don L

barefootnavigator said:


> Don, I'm doing it and have been for years even when I was at the dock.


I will take you at your word. Please post a break down of what you spend that $500/mo on for the past couple of years.


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## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> Can you share your accounting details. It would be great to have actual numbers to chew on.
> .


Can not post a spreadsheet, but last year:
Operation and general - $1629
maintenance and repairs - $ 1978
storage & marina - $4895
upgrades - $1871

and that is just the boat


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## barefootnavigator

Don you don't have to take me for my word I have been posting my life online 4 days a week for 7 years with 100% absolute clarity. Sorry as a life lime banker I no longer play with numbers I use my envelopes and they work fine.  Too many people want all the answers how much does it cost, what is the exact weather ect... The bet way to figure out the budget is to cut the lines and see what happens


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## travlin-easy

Always loving a challenge, and being very meticulous about bookkeeping, I went into my quicken account to see what it cost me to live aboard for 6 months while traveling down the east coast ICW to from the upper Chesapeake to Marathon Key, Florida. Prior to reaching Marathon, the average cost was surprisingly low, considering that most of the trip was under power. According to my quicken account, it was just under $750 a month, which I thought was pretty darned good considering that I had to spend several nights in marinas because of the horrendous weather, Hurricane Sandy, etc... Breakdowns and repair cost throughout the trip cost me 12 days of travel time, and nearly $1,000. Almost $300 for a water pump for the A4, another $300 in labor for a skinny guy to crawl into my bilge and replace my packing gland material, which had completely worn out. He put the water pump in while he was down in the hole as well. But that only took him 20 minutes. The packing gland job took nearly an hour.

When I got to Marathon, I opted to use one of the City Marina's mooring balls. I could have anchored, but I liked being in the mooring field, and I was a lot closer to the marina where I had access to the showers, laundry room, internet access, etc... I stayed on the ball for about a month, which cost $300 a month that time of year. When the music jobs came rolling in, I opted to move the boat to the canal and dock on the sea wall, which made it much easier and safer to move my music equipment on and off the boat. Loading and transporting $7,500 in music gear in a 10-foot inflatable across a sometimes choppy Boot Key Harbor just ain't real smart. The cost of dockage at the City Marina, and most other marinas in Marathon, was $19.75/foot, plus another $45 a month for electricity, plus some lunacy taxes, which translated into about $750/Month. Just about everywhere in the U.S. where there are palm trees, sugar white sand, turquoise colored water and tourists, the price is about the same, with the exception of Key West, which is much higher. Find some cold weather, muddy filthy water, silt beaches, and no palm trees and you can pay a less, but not all that much less. Everywhere I've been transient dockage has always been a gotcha! The cheapest prices were in central Virginia where you could tie up at some marinas with electricity for about $1 to $150 a foot per night - not bad, and a lot cheaper than a motel.

The next biggest expense was food, which on average cost me about $85 a week, and believe me I didn't eat extravagantly by a long shot. When I did manage to go fishing, I filled the freezer with fresh fillets, and I absolutely love seafood of all kinds, with the exception of raw - just won't do that. Those fillets went a long way, but after a while you grow weary of eating fish using a dozen recipes. Some nights you just wanted a burger, a steak, ham slice, something different - and that will cost you some time and money.

The other thing I needed, and should have purchased before leaving, was a good bicycle. Yep, walking 3 miles to get a bottle of booze just didn't cut it, especially at age 72. Fortunately, a fellow cruiser at Marathon provided me with a loaner the entire time I was there, but when I blew a tire one afternoon on the way back from the post office, the cost of repair was $20 at the local bike shop. Still, that was cheap from my perspective.

So is $500 a month realistic - not from my experience last year, and the only thing prices have done since then is go up - not down. I think you could get away with about $750 as long as you can catch fish effectively, which a lot of sailors cannot, do most of your own repairs, and live on the hook. I know several cruisers that spend that amount or slightly more every month and still manage to put some money in their savings account for a rainy day fund. 

Hope this helps,

Gary


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## MikeOReilly

travlineasy said:


> ...So is $500 a month realistic - not from my experience last year, and the only thing prices have done since then is go up - not down. I think you could get away with about $750 as long as you can catch fish effectively, which a lot of sailors cannot, do most of your own repairs, and live on the hook. I know several cruisers that spend that amount or slightly more every month and still manage to put some money in their savings account for a rainy day fund.


It helps a lot Gary - thanks. Actually, this gives me great hope. I'm not hung up on the $500/month thing. The point is, can this life be sustainable over a long time. Even with my limited resources, $750/month is pretty doable.

I appreciate your data too Don, although I gotta say, your maintenance and operations costs seem way beyond my experience. You must own a Hunter . And your storage/marina costs are scary. Come north young man! I paid less than $800 for my own dock (incl. electricity), haul in/out, and winter storage.

Gary, I think you said you maintain a fridge/freezer on board. What kind? What's your battery bank? What kind of charging system do you use? Obviously I have fridges on the mind. As I say, we have one, and damn but I do love my cold beer, but our current passive charging systems cannot keep up with the draw all the time. The added solar I'm putting on might do it, but I wonder if all that nice cold beer is really worth it .


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## Don L

MikeOReilly;1294274
I appreciate your data too Don said:


> Doesn't take much. Some bottom paint, a sail repair, new windlass motor, new regulator. Toss in some electrical connections, a few filters etc and it adds up in the maintenance and repair columns.
> 
> Then a couple hundred for fuel during the year, some propane, taxes, mooring permits, insurance all collect in the operation column.
> 
> But it pretty much seems to just average out to this each year and form reading many many sailing blogs of cruisers it seems low if anything compared.
> 
> Might be able to spend less if I didn't use the boat!


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## krisscross

Don0190 said:


> I bet this guy thought he could do it on $500


Loved how he finished with: "Next time, I'm going to have a motor and a dinghy and I'll be good".


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## Steve523

Heck yeah Christian, well said!


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## ericb760

Twenty years ago a business acquaintance gave me the best business advice that I have ever heard. He told me, "Honestly estimate the cost of the project using all of the variables that you can possibly think of. Once you've determined that number.....double it, only then will you have a realistic budget". Sound advice that is as true today as it was twenty years ago.


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## christian.hess

Don0190 said:


> I feel I am contributing and posted how you can do it. But for most people I'm telling you the truth and if you can come up with anywhere near the number of real life examples of those doing it on $500/mo as I can those that thought so and failed I will give up.
> 
> I keep track of all my boat expenses (I do all my own work) and it has averaged about $11,000/year the past 5 years. Even if I take out all storage and marina costs, and all upgrades, it still costs about $4000/yr. That isn't going to leave much in a $500/mo budget.
> 
> So you may be able to live on a boat for $500/mo, you aren't going voyaging.


well you are wrong and your truth isnt my truth and or experience like mike I invite you to share experiences and or helpful tidbits

I voyaged and I DIDNT STOP AT STARBUCKS MID PACIFIC for an $8 vanillia latte did I?



ps. voyaging and offshore long distance cruising is cheaper than hopping from port to port...if you or anybody else cant grasp that think about it

just engine use and anchoring use...just that can cause stuff to break...offshore not.

peace

Im noty trying to be argumentative btw but when I have done it and seen others do it I just cant see why you cant see this point of view

for example in your spreadshett don you state close to 5k a year on yard and marina fees...scratch that off the list and most else you put does sound reasonable

now are you cruising at the moment?

and lastly why is having a blog a standard for being a real cruiser? just thought that was funny I dint have one, they didnt exist back then...didnt know posting what you eat and crap every day is the only way to be understood or respected...

little rant over jajajaja


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## ccriders

MikeO,
Looks like you have an opportunity to test the $500 hypothesis for yourself. If you are planning to move aboard in six months, do like Barefoot, put $500 in each of six envelopes and pay for everything not associated with land based living and see how far you get. Then when you move aboard, but before casting off put your experience based amount into twelve envelopes and see how that works out. 
When we first married, my wife and I used the envelope method of budgeting and I've got to tell you that if you only have a small amount in there, you quickly earn a MS in EE (Expense Evasion) and can record on the envelope all of your expenditures. We lived on $220 a month, paid in cash once a month - anybody recognize that amount? - and there were no credit cards and where we lived checking accounts. With real live cash in small amounts you become keenly aware of what you are spending.
This afternoon we are going to the cinema and as much as I like popcorn there is just no way I'm going to spend $5 on the stuff. And yes, we buy noname popcorn in a quart bottle, not microwave. I think that if you have been hungry and have lived on little money you can return to frugality and actually enjoy the simplification and cleansing you get from that style of living. The corollary of that for me is watching a wealthy widow dismantle and extravagant waterfront house so she can move into one bedroom center city apartment, to simplify and live her last years frugally, but not really wanting to do so.
So test out your budget, and let us know how it goes.
John


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## MikeOReilly

ccriders said:


> MikeO,
> Looks like you have an opportunity to test the $500 hypothesis for yourself. If you are planning to move aboard in six months, do like Barefoot, put $500 in each of six envelopes and pay for everything not associated with land based living and see how far you get.


Thanks John, yes we are going to test the hypothesis in about 6 months. My wife and I have been poor (counting pennies to share a coffee while looking through want ads kind of poor), and while we have been a lot wealthier these past few years, are still living a relatively simple life.

I've used variations of the envelope idea in the past, and we will definitely do so moving forward. Cash is king! I may start a blog, or something, to keep a record. Or maybe I'll just keep babbling here .


----------



## Don L

christian.hess said:


> I voyaged and I DIDNT STOP AT STARBUCKS MID PACIFIC for an $8 vanillia latte did I?


never had an$8 latte, what is a latte

please tell us:
what year you sailed
where you went
long you stayed at each
how much you spend on food
how much on boat repairs and maintenance
how much on sightseeing
insurance if any
etc etc

instead of rants put the data on it and prove me wrong instead of saying so and let people decide based on your data whether they really want to do the same

after all if you really read what I wrote earlier said if COULD be done under the right set of conditions

BTW - I can add and subtract add and if you take those marina, storage, and upgrade numbers out of my yearly costs you still aren't going to have much on a $500/mo budget

I'm pretty secure in feeling there are a lot more people on my side that wouldn't consider $500/mo cruising as "living" verse being alive


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## newhaul

Don0190 said:


> I feel I am contributing and posted how you can do it. But for most people I'm telling you the truth and if you can come up with anywhere near the number of real life examples of those doing it on $500/mo as I can those that thought so and failed I will give up.
> 
> I keep track of all my boat expenses (I do all my own work) and it has averaged about $11,000/year the past 5 years. Even if I take out all storage and marina costs, and all upgrades, it still costs about $4000/yr. That isn't going to leave much in a $500/mo budget.
> 
> So you may be able to live on a boat for $500/mo, you aren't going voyaging.


I'm not crhsing per say I live in the pnw and you can cruse the Puget sound for the rest of my life and still not see it all and that's from point Roberts to mud bay in Olympia include the hood canal and you got life of places to go I posted earlier that I do my living on just about 500 per month and that includes marina fees I just forgot to add the stove fuel into it at a gallon of gasoline per month cost less than 5 bucks and maintance last year was less than 50 bucks for the year a new hose for my cockpit drain paint for the deck in my cabin and newzsinks for my outboard motor I used about 5 gallons of fuel all year on it I sail the motor is just to get from slip to breakwater and back. So all total I think I'm still under the 500 bit but that's not the real part to this thread the amount was I think arbitrary to get people thinking about how to save while crushing on the cheap.


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## Tenoch

I think the definition of "voyaging" is varied. I agree that living on the Puget Sound, anchoring out often, living on the cheap can be, and is, awesome. I live on the Columbia (at a marina now-while saving money), but I could live on the hook on the lower reaches of the Columbia and Willamette for under $500 a month, exploring all of the back waters and tributaries. Does that count as "voyaging"? Sailing around the world non-stop, does that count as "voyaging"? Is living on the Rio Dulce for months and months "voyaging"? I think this is where the difference of opinions originate and obviously the costs vary accordingly.


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## travlin-easy

Mike, my refrigerator/freezer came with the boat and is built-in. It's really efficient and surrounded by 4 to 5 inches of dense, close-cell styrofoam insulation. The freezer compartment segment is fairy small, but easily holds 8 TV dinners, plus a dozen packs of fish fillets and a few other things.

I usually place a 10-pound bag of ice in the refrigerator section that will usually last for about a week. The ice cubes are for making margarettas and other drinks when I have visitors.

The unit draws 6 amps when it's running, which is not very often. And, although it also has a secondary sea-water cooling system that makes it get much colder, I never use it - it's just not necessary. The traditional compressor and internal fan seem to be more than adequate to keep things frozen in the freezer segment, and the temperature in the refrigerator compartment usually stays right at 45 degrees f.

My house battery bank consists of 4 T105 golf cart batteries wired in a series parallel configuration. I have a 100-watt solar panel mounted on my stern rail, which does a great job of keeping the batteries topped off most of the time, but on cloudy days I have to fire up the engine and charge the batteries for about 30 minutes to top them off. If I were going to be a full-time live-aboard I would increase the solar charging system to 500-watts, which would be more than adequate for all my electrical needs, day and night. At night, when the world is pretty quiet, I hear the compressor of the refrigerator come on about once every 20 minutes and it stays on for about 3 to 5 minutes at most.

I have a friend that has a hunter 42 with a huge refrigerator freezer that held up to 500-pounds of food, of which at least 250 could be frozen. He was called home for an emergency and had me baby sit his boat while he was gone. His 250-watt solar system could not keep up with the refrigerator's demand, which was 12 to 15 amps. He lost more than $1,000 in frozen food when we had three days of rain. He also has a very near wind generator, which had no trouble keeping up with the demand on days when the wind blew, which was just about every day in Marathon last winter. The wind generator was very quiet, had self-adjusting blades and brake system, and put a lot of power. The cost, I believe, was about $2,200 for the wind generator, plus installation.

Good Luck,

Gary


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## okawbow

I'm sure I can get by on $500.00 a month cruising in my Bristol 24, by anchoring instead of staying in marinas, and eating Hormel "Compleats" meals, heated over a sterno can. If one stays away from civilization as much as possible; there are fewer opportunities to spend your money. Better learn to like fishing, beachcombing, and doing all your own boat repair and maintenance, though.


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## stagman

okawbow said:


> I'm sure I can get by on $500.00 a month cruising in my Bristol 24, by anchoring instead of staying in marinas, and eating Hormel "Compleats" meals, heated over a sterno can. If one stays away from civilization as much as possible; there are fewer opportunities to spend your money. Better learn to like fishing, beachcombing, and doing all your own boat repair and maintenance, though.


Isn't that half the fun?


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## christian.hess

Don0190 said:


> never had an$8 latte, what is a latte
> 
> please tell us:
> what year you sailed
> where you went
> long you stayed at each
> how much you spend on food
> how much on boat repairs and maintenance
> how much on sightseeing
> insurance if any
> etc etc
> 
> instead of rants put the data on it and prove me wrong instead of saying so and let people decide based on your data whether they really want to do the same
> 
> after all if you really read what I wrote earlier said if COULD be done under the right set of conditions
> 
> BTW - I can add and subtract add and if you take those marina, storage, and upgrade numbers out of my yearly costs you still aren't going to have much on a $500/mo budget
> 
> I'm pretty secure in feeling there are a lot more people on my side that wouldn't consider $500/mo cruising as "living" verse being alive


I have don...you just havent read it by ranting yourself

I said in a post about 6 pages back* now* that:

in 2000-03 or so I spent on a coast to coast cruise of the americas via the panama canal

300 each country at a big supermarket getting food supplies, canned goods etc...
200 was actual food and persihables
100-300 was the cost for the boat papers and crew for 2 depending on which country you entered and left
back in 2000 you had to get a zarpe for each stop in mexico for example and spend more money going to banjercito etc at each stop so we anchored in place like ztown, manzanillo, huatuclo ionstead of big marinas and ports

what is a latte? well its an expensive american starbucks creation..in europe its called an aulait

it was a bad joke about how people think you spend money mid ocean...you dont...I just dont see how...you prepare and provision but thats amelrioated by cruising and not stopping at every single location

anywhoo

fuel we had a small yanmar 2gm...15 galon tank...sipped 1/3 galon an hour...we used it a lot and used 2 gerry cans...this equated to:

about 100 or so per official stop especially going from country to country

medical NO INSURANCE
no insurance on boat either it was a 1959 heresshof h28 wooden classic that I restored

I was 20 at the time my crew was 76...I didnt once spend money on anything medical but thats cause I was young

we didnt spend money on booze cause my friend was an aa....

so we saved there too

haulouts...in panama and el salvador in el salvador we spent 500 on wood jobs on my boat...in panama we hauled out at pmbc boat club mid canal...and stayed there a year...and I was donated some submarine paint I did all varnish etc...so say another $500

food at restaurants, maybe once every 2 weeks...and at the time till cancun we dint fish!

so that was aboout 30 monthly on restaurante per person
taxi rides and touristy park entrance fees etc...50 per person a month

anyways

dont know if that helps any...probably not


----------



## Lou452

I am still learning to sail. This year I will track my cost. Right now both of my boats are under tarps.
I will have some cost that we can decide will not apply like the cost to tow them to the lakes that I use. We can all discuss my cost what will apply and not . If you wish we can try to control cost together or vote a cost out we feel was my extravagance. You all have challenged me and I except. I will try to keep a good cost record for 2014 
The boats types are very common and I think the best choice for learning how to sail and this makes sense you need to be able to sail before you can cruise.
The 1st boat is a 1967 FJ. 
The 2nd is a Catalina 22 
cost to date this year is $0 for ten days I will have some needed up keep expenses soon. I could have spent this $ last month or in Nov. but wanted to wait.
Good Day, Lou


----------



## christian.hess

jeje I raced fjs in high school, wasnt too bad...and the boats are very forgiving and fun!


----------



## Brent Swain

Alex W said:


> You did not read my maintenance estimate very closely. I wasn't only talking about bottom paint. I also called out sail costs as an example.
> 
> New quality sails today are about $3,000 for a small cruising boat (that is one main and one genoa from a quality loft, or perhaps a main, jib and genoa that I'd consider minimal for cruising from a discount loft). 10 years is longer than you can realistically use sails on a boat being cruised heavily.
> 
> Running rigging and standing rigging together would also have a service life of less than 10 years for a cruiser being sailed daily. They combine at about $3000 on a small boat. I'm assuming a <10000lb sloop, no engine, no furler, basic running rigging.
> 
> Canvas, rebedding deck hardware and ports, blocks for rigging, navigation electronics, all add up. $200/mo is on the high end for an engineless boat, but probably on the low end for one with a diesel inboard that is getting regular use.
> 
> My basic point is that it is cheating to count money already spent as not part of your ongoing budget. The Golden Globe sailors each spent close to a year on the water for $0/mo, but their budget in the year leading up to the race was clearly well above the average sailing budget.


In over 40 years of mostly full time cruising, I have only bought a new sail once , when I was a rank beginner, and gullible, back in the early 70s, when used sails were far less available than they are today. We are now awash in used sails and gear, in excellent condition, for a fraction the cost of new. I have never paid more than $350 for a sail since.
I have bought enough 1x7 , 5/16th high tensile galvanized rigging wire to rig a 36 footer, for $24 . It has lasted me for decades, when well painted. My 5/8th galvanized turnbuckles cost me $26 each when I first bought them back in 84. I just replaced them for $21 each last year , and have since found better, closed body ones at Princess Auto for $17 each.
I had to replace my sheets after 25 years of full time ,year round use. Cost? Not all that much. My sheet blocks cost me around $2 each for materials, the best blocks money can't buy, far better blocks than commercially made ones. I can't imagine how you get $3,000 out of standing and running rigging.
My roller furler cost me less than $100 for materials to build, again, a far better unit than commercially made ones.
My welded down gear on my steel boat will never need rebedding, another cost and hassle saving in having a steel boat . Welding is the best bedding compound ever invented.
A roughly $100 GPS and a $100 depth sounder is all the electronics you need, far more than I had in my first couple of decades of cruising.
What you need is to get away from that "Just throw money at it at the ship swindlers" attitude and develop a bit of resourcefulness. Stop getting your advice from those with a huge financial stake in suckering you into whatever they are selling. Start getting your advice from cruisers who have been actually cruising for years on a minimal budget.


----------



## JonEisberg

Alex W said:


> 460AH batteries and the associated solar panels don't sound like a feasible system to maintain forever as part of a $500/mo budget. If this thread is going to remain honest it has to be about a continuous budget of $500/mo, not one where you spend lots of money outfitting and then live on nothing for some period of time until you have an expensive outfitting period again. If that were the game then it was won years ago by non-stop round the world cruisers who spend a year or more on the water without spending a dime. It was all spent before they left.


Agree completely... I'm just not seeing many people out there tricking out their boats with expensive gear, battery banks, freezers, watermakers, and the myriad of costly means of power generation to support such systems, and then going off and living a very low-budget lifestyle... Sure, there may be some out there taking such an approach, but I'm sure not running into them...

The primary reason, I believe, has to do with the other kind of insurance that hasn't much been talked about in this thread... Namely, boat insurance... Not many people are are gonna invest, say, $100-150K in a boat, and then take off without insurance... And, if you're truly "voyaging", crossing oceans and the like, insurance for a Mom & Pop couple is gonna be expensive, and very difficult to obtain for a singlehander...

So, seems for those on the $500/month budget, 'self-insuring', or sailing a boat you can afford to lose, is the only way to go... I just don't see how it's possible to fit worldwide insurance coverage into such a modest budget, hence the rarity of seeing people out there in high-end, tricked-out boats spending no more than $6K/year on their "voyaging"...


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## christian.hess

^^^^^^amen bro! (to the post by brent...seems jon slipped in, jejejeje! ps I recall that boat being mentioned in the rally thread...)

can you say windage again?

I have noticed that a loty of stuff doesnt get commented on bceause it cant be bought at said chandlery etc...

I just got done making awesome chainplates and massive backing plates for my islander 36 down here...

I have a feeling that if I would of said ooooh look at my new harken or garhauer plates that cost a gazillion bucks and more for shipping people would of said good job, thats a safe decision etc...

about electronics Im using what my boat came with...what didnt work got chucked

Im getting a fishfinder at $79 and thats that...

the biggest attribute for a cruiser contemplating voyaging is KISS

you must keep systems simple and if possible redundant but most importantly SIMPLE

sails? my boat came with 6, including a storm sail and staysail it also came with removeable stays for them yes the rest of the rigging sucked but Im fixng that

Ive never bought a new sail but really want to for my current boat...maybe Ill run into some money at the restaurant who knows

does my rolly tasker main suck, heck no, its just not new...thats all

is my boat unsafe cause I dont have the crap westmarine wants to sell you? or seminars want to push on you...

am I unsafe cause I dont have the newest certified liferaft? what if my dinghy is my liferaft? and it has sails too? and its cheaper?

for example what the hell is a chartplotter(kidding but why imitate a damn car down the expressway?) and why do I need so much damn electronics at my helm?

some boats these days have what looks like a djs mixing studio wuth so many peripherals... thought the point of sailing and voyaging was to get away from stuff and cruise in a simple manner...

maybe Im just not mainstreem enough but thats good to me! jajaja

nuff said


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## GeorgeB

After reading this thread, I am ever so thankful for being middle class. A life of eating nothing but top ramen and pinto beans somehow isn’t all that appealing to me. The thread has been entertaining and somewhat informative as we prepare for our own Mexican cruise. 

I’m not all that hung up over the $500 dollar thing as there appears to be some underreporting of costs. I have a 34 footer and by this discussion, one of the larger boats and yet we are always pressed for space and I cannot for the life of me figure out how you guys can fruit and vegetables, smoke or salt fish all on boats smaller than 30 feet. Please, post some photographs! Also, for you guys (barefoot) who don’t pay for marina fees or have cell phones, how do connect to the internet? 

Thank you Travelin and Christian for being so open and forthcoming on your expenses. I cannot always follow your math, but it has given me some things to think about. MikeO hit the nail on the head by dissecting the expenses down into categories. We all have different fuel consumptions, maintenance schedules and the like. Things like the $50-$85 a week for food are interesting and something I’m going to look into. Travelin, how many hours a day do you spend fishing and what are you catching? In Mexico, I wouldn’t dream eating anything caught in an anchorage off of a town and heading out every day in hopes of catching a fish seems too subsistent to me. If budgets are paired down to the subsistent level, what do you do all day if you don’t have any money to travel inland or partake of the local culture?

Refrigeration – MikeO, check to see if your cooling tubes are dirty or are they in a poorly ventilated locker. You may need to re-charge your coolant. My A-B is twice as efficient as yours but not nearly as Travelins. By the way, what is the name of that system?

Don’t hate me for being middle class. Perhaps someday we will sharing an anchorage and we could splice the main brace together (strictly BYOB as I wouldn’t want to interfere with your chosen lifestyle)


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## christian.hess

Brent Swain said:


> *My roller furler cost me less than $100 for materials to build, again, a far better unit than commercially made ones.*
> My welded down gear on my steel boat will never need rebedding, another cost and hassle saving in having a steel boat . Welding is the best bedding compound ever invented.
> A roughly $100 GPS and a $100 depth sounder is all the electronics you need, far more than I had in my first couple of decades of cruising.
> What you need is to get away from that "Just throw money at it at the ship swindlers" attitude and develop a bit of resourcefulness. Stop getting your advice from those with a huge financial stake in suckering you into whatever they are selling. Start getting your advice from cruisers who have been actually cruising for years on a minimal budget.


Id be very interested in your furler plans and or buid...I am contemplating making one down here since I have acces to excellent welding and stainless for cheap...

really high quality stuff so for easing my wife into cruising this year and next an easier boat to sail with a furling genny could be in my future

I too would love to make mine

thanks brent


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## christian.hess

georgeb or mike or anyone else Im not a penny counter I prefer to live with less stress than that of bean counting like they say in the states...

funny cause I have a restaurant1 where bean counting is mandatory! ajajaja

basically cruising cant be planned...you just cant unless you say Im gooing solo around the world non stop and never stop anywhere and make it!

Ill end todays conversation by simply inviting you guys to come down to el salvador where anchoring is free, a mooring is $75 a month and $500 a month is enough for anyone, or couple or small family to live on on a monthly basis including dental, or a quick check at the clinic, food, beer etc...

come on down...have a beer on me on my boat and anchor next to me and we can chat face to face...human to human on a more intelligent level than say bickering about small stuff at a computer! jajajaja

ILL BE CRUISING this year...we plan to go to san juan del sur, then off to costa ricas islands and back to our home base in costa del sol, el salvador

the boat is almost finished, just some stanchions and deckword and installing rigging and sheets and halyards then a quick careen for $200 and some bottom paint for $95 a galon.

and thats that

there is a rally down here btw...but Im not a fan of rallies...for those interested...

in all honesty Im saving up as we speak...I have a 4 month old son and a wife...my boat is a 36 footer that has taken me 2 years to refit...and since the boat came with goodies inlcuding massive autopilot(not working yet) windvane and cruising gear and sails im good and fine with that...no need for NEW stuff unless needed like some awesome rigging I just bought or the fishfinder I plan to install.

my plan is to cruise at least to nicaragua and costa rica on 500 or so less a month...why because I know it can be done and I know what it costs here...and I have already done it much more frugally on a much smaller boat....so it will be heaven compared to before

cant explain myself anymore I guess

peace

christian


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## newhaul

Tenoch said:


> I think the definition of "voyaging" is varied. I agree that living on the Puget Sound, anchoring out often, living on the cheap can be, and is, awesome. I live on the Columbia (at a marina now-while saving money), but I could live on the hook on the lower reaches of the Columbia and Willamette for under $500 a month, exploring all of the back waters and tributaries. Does that count as "voyaging"? Sailing around the world non-stop, does that count as "voyaging"? Is living on the Rio Dulce for months and months "voyaging"? I think this is where the difference of opinions originate and obviously the costs vary accordingly.


I feel that voyaging means exploring. Columbus went on a voyage to explore and discover, magellin went on a voyage to discover, and people go on a cruise to go from point a to point b . So a voyage has no distance specific and cruising has a specific destination and distance to go that's just my two cents worth


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## MikeOReilly

GeorgeB said:


> ...I'm not all that hung up over the $500 dollar thing as there appears to be some underreporting of costs. I have a 34 footer and by this discussion, one of the larger boats and yet we are always pressed for space and I cannot for the life of me figure out how you guys can fruit and vegetables, smoke or salt fish all on boats smaller than 30 feet.


I feel like the monster yacht owner in this group. Our Rafiki-37 (which is actually 36.75') is what I believe to be the smallest boat my wife and I can live with, and still do the things we want to do. I believe it is the right compromise between size, capabilities and cost ... but as I keep saying, time will tell. I do know that we could easily carry 6 months of basic provisions on board, and with more effort could push that well beyond. Our tankage is fairly large (90 gal diesel, 200 gallons of water). I'm upgrading our battery bank before we leave. Our charging system includes a 400 watt wind gen (SilentWind), and 100 watts solar. I may add more solar if I can find a good location. We have a good anchoring system, and are very comfortable swinging from the hook. So all in all, I feel we are reasonable well set up. Time will tell...

And thanks for the fridge suggestions. I am going to look into a recharge. That may help.



christian.hess said:


> georgeb or mike or anyone else Im not a penny counter I prefer to live with less stress than that of bean counting like they say in the states...
> 
> ...
> Ill end todays conversation by simply inviting you guys to come down to el salvador where anchoring is free, a mooring is $75 a month and $500 a month is enough for anyone, or couple or small family to live on on a monthly basis including dental, or a quick check at the clinic, food, beer etc...


I sincerely hope to take you up on this offer Christian. We are headed your way, but it will take us a while to get there. Look for a classic looking cutter around 2018 I'd say.


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## MikeOReilly

JonEisberg said:


> So, seems for those on the $500/month budget, 'self-insuring', or sailing a boat you can afford to lose, is the only way to go... I just don't see how it's possible to fit worldwide insurance coverage into such a modest budget, hence the rarity of seeing people out there in high-end, tricked-out boats spending no more than $6K/year on their "voyaging"...


I agree Jon. Those on small budgets need to find other ways to effectively mitigate risk. Insurance is probably not feasible on a small budget. When we leave the Great Lakes I suspect we'll go with liability-only, but that's one of the many questions that have not been answered yet for us.


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## Lou452

christian.hess said:


> jeje I raced fjs in high school, wasnt too bad...and the boats are very forgiving and fun!


 From a sunfish to the FJ my wife and I were intimidated with the amount of lines and the rig. The FJ has most of what the big boys have traveler and such. I need to decide If I should buy new sails. The FJ has taught a lot. We are learning to anchor and wish to try some overnights in the Catalina-22

George and Mike It is ok to Cruise at what ever level fits. This is not a kick anybody that has a dime more than me thread. If so I am out A few religions stress not to envy ! Don and Easy are great because they bring a much needed voice. Some place way back in this thread someone called BS on a Brent post. It may not be the most kind but I can assure all of you Brent can take it. I have seen this other places. We can never feed off each other and develop ideas if we have yes men or censorship to blind us. 
more to come, Lou


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## bljones

Brent Swain said:


> Stop getting your advice from those with a huge financial stake in suckering you into whatever they are selling. Start getting your advice from cruisers who have been actually cruising for years on a minimal budget.


Brent, there is a thread here with pages of low-buck tips for sailors. That thread has had over 200 000 views. It was started by a guy who has nothing to sell, and no financial stake.
You, for all your overblown egotistic reverse-elitist assholity, have never posted one thing there. 
You talk about being wary of those wiht a financial stake, yet you offer no advice for free- instead you sell plans.
Who the hell has a financial stake here?
It ain't me. it IS you.


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## manatee

christian.hess said:


> {snip}
> 
> about electronics Im using what my boat came with...what didnt work got chucked.
> 
> {snip}
> 
> for example what the hell is a chartplotter(kidding but why imitate a damn car down the expressway?) and why do I need so much damn electronics at my helm?
> 
> some boats these days have what looks like a djs mixing studio wuth so many peripherals...


* You mean like this?*










I don't know if you can keep it below $500, but these guys can help you simplify your preparations and get going.

 Sensible Cruising: The Thoreau Approach 

*From a review:*
"If wisdom can be defined as common sense that has withstood the test of time, then 'Sensible Cruising' is a wise book.

It explains:

Why a sensible cruise is affordable to almost anyone. 
Why the boat of choice for most cruisers is under 35 feet. 
Why lowering the cost doesn't devalue the cruise. 
How simplicity minimizes insulation from the experience. 
How to think in terms of how little, not how much, is really required.

Drawing heavily on the philosophy of the sage of Walden Pond, this book is a gentle guide to the art of commonsense cruising which, in hardcover, was one of the 10 best-selling sailing books of all time. Now available for the first time in paperback, Sensible Cruising, a former main selection of the Dolphin Book Club, is more pertinent than ever during this time of economic retrenchment."

*From the book:*
"Few cruisers go sailing without a budget, often a very restrictive one. Mr. Thoreau often speaks of that situation, but it is not just his monetary thrift that is valuable to us. He is also thrifty with time, committed to getting the most out of his life today rather than waiting for some vague tomorrow. And there is his thrift with the written word. He packs a great deal of thought into a very few words. No writer in the English language has ever excelled him in this art.

His commitment to thrift makes him an authority on "sensible cruising". As you will see as you read this book, Thoreau in a very real sense tells us if cruising is what we want, then it is what we should be doing. Take the boat you already have and go. If you do not have a boat, then buy one you can afford and go."

Fair winds and following seas, dreamers & cruisers.


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## barefootnavigator

Brilliant I'm putting it on my list. For all the people who are wondering how a person might become debt free and actually save enough to pay cash for a boat and sail off, here is a excellent read although it has nothing to do with sailing it has everything to do with finding financial freedom which is something I think we all desire.

https://www.google.com/search?q=walson+on+wheels&oq=walson+on+wheels&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l2.4316j0j4&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#es_sm=93&espv=210&q=walden+on+wheels&tbm=shop&spd=12092724378695819621


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## travlin-easy

George, your fishing time and success is dependent upon a number of factors. I've had people on my boat that couldn't catch a fish if their life depended upon it. Other, including my wife and daughter, are just plain lucky. I think they could drop a bare hook to the bottom and hook any fish within a mile - I never understood how that worked, so I just pass it off as luck.

Most of the fish I caught in the Florida Keys were mangrove snapper, flannel-mouth grunt, french grunt, mutton snapper, yellowtail snapper, Spanish mackerel and an occasional king mackerel. The kings were up to 20 pounds, so if you were lucky enough to nail one, and even luckier to land it, it pretty much fulfilled my quota for that week or more. A 20-pound king provides about 12-pounds of fillets - that's a lot of meat.

I caught the kings while trolling large, silver spoons along the gulf side of Marathon Key, about 5 to 7 miles from shore. The fish were hanging in the troughs and along the edges of grass beds and the wanted the lure traveling about 3 to 4 mph at best. They hit like a freight train and you have to use a heavy, clear, mono leader or their teeth will slice through the line. They're leader shy, though, and steel leaders are out of the question. Sometimes you can pick up a cobia at the same location using a live pinfish for bait and sight fishing for them. You see them near buoys and wrecks, some tipped the scales at nearly 50 pounds, and they don't land easy. They sure taste good, though.

The mangrove snappers lurk along the edges of grass beds in depths of just 5 to 8 feet on the gulf side of Seven Mile Bridge. Shrimp, squid strips and fresh cut pinfish baits are all very effective, but technique is very important with these fish. The larger fish tend to hang well beyond the smaller guys, which are much more aggressive and tend to steal your bait. It's a matter of letting your line drift back with the tide while the little fish nail it and drag it toward the larger fish. This method produced a good fish, one measuring more than 15 inches, ever two to three minutes when fished in a chum slick. You can purchase a chum bag and frozen chum from any tackle shop.

The Atlantic side is where you find the grunts, yellowtail snapper, mutton snapper, and Spanish mackerel in abundance. They tend to hang out along the edges of the reefs, and the best technique to catch them is hanging a chum bag over the side and bottom fishing with squid strips and shrimp. I prefer the squid strips because they're less expensive and tougher for the fish to steal from the hook. Just rig up with a standard top and bottom rig, also known as a two-hook rig, place a 2 to 3 ounce sinker on the bottom and lower the bait into any of the open sand spots between the reefs. An old friend put it best when he described this method as effective as rolling a wine bottle through a jail cell - it gets lots of attention. The grunts are small, but very tasty panfish, averaging 8 to 12 inches in length. When conditions are right, light tide, calm weather, you can catch them as fast as the line hits the bottom. Spanish and cero mackerel will often be seen swarming in the chum slick behind the boat, along with yellowtail and mutton snapper. When I see them, I just attach a small, silver spoon to my medium action spinning outfit and cast beyond the chum slick, then reel the lure quickly through the slick. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If that does get their attention, I'll take one of the grunts out of the cooler chest and slice it into strips. Then I use a 2/0 wide gap hook and bait it with no additional weight and toss the meat into the chum slick. If the fish are feeding heavily, that chunk of meat doesn't usually make it very far.

I usually only fished one of two days a week at most - that was all that was necessary for me. Keep in mind though, that I'm damned good at fishing, so your success will vary depending upon luck and skill. I also use the best fishing tackle. My rods are custom made graphite, and the reels have drags smooth as silk. It's usually rare for me to loose a fish once it's hooked.

You'll need either a small gaff or landing net for the larger fish. You can't pick them up by the line. The little fish, however, can just be swung over the rail and into the cooler. 

If you're offshore and sailing along, you will undoubtedly pass some offshore buoys and large patches of Sargasso weed. This is where you find dolphinfish, also called dolphin, mahi mahi, dorado, etc... They're easy to catch just by trolling a medium size spoon along the edge of the grass beds, or close to one of the buoys. They like to lurk in the shade and wait for an unsuspecting baitfish to pass with range. I found a dozen lurking beneath an old pallet one afternoon. All were 12 to 15 pounds and there were a couple monsters of more than 50 pounds with them that I just couldn't land. They're a great tasting fish when prepared fresh, but don't lend themselves to freezing because they're a bit oily. If you have access to a smoker, they're among the best smoked fish out there.

There are times, when you are just sailing along in the open ocean, when a school of blackfin or yellowfin tuna will show up. There are lots of feathered skip baits that do a great job with these fish, but you'll need a heavy boat rod, good reel with large line capacity and a lot of time to land them. They don't give up easily. They tend to want the lure moving at 6 to 8 mph and at times, faster. I prefer the yellowfin for eating quality, firmer, lighter meat. I would advise keeping more than one, though. Tuna are very oily and do not freeze well.

I used to vacuum seal my fillets in freezer bags using a seal a meal machine. It works very well, and the fillets tend to last forever in the freezer. The machine finally, after a decade of use, died. I haven't replaced it yet, but I will. Now, I'm using Zip-Loc freezer bags and add water to them to keep the fillets from freezer burn. That seems to work almost as well.

I haven't fished Mexico's waters in many, many years, but from what I've been told, most of the nearshore areas have been commercially fished very hard and it's sometimes difficult to find edible species. Do Not eat barracuda - just too dangerous, and size has no bearing on whether or not they have ciguateria - they all have the propensity. Ciguateria is a nasty neuro-toxin that at the very least will have you in the hospital for a week and wishing you had died. Other species to avoid are parrotfish, and pretty much any other reef dweller.

When lobster season is open, you can ride around at night with a flashlight and lobster net and pick them out of the turtle grass beds. Some will be pretty darned big, but must will measure 12 to 15 inches at best. I've only caught them using this technique once, but it was very productive - we caught a dozen in two hours.

I always carry at least a small box of frozen squid in the freezer for bait. It will keep frozen forever. I used to keep some frozen shrimp, but they tend to get soft after being frozen for a couple weeks or so.

Hope this helps,

Gary


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## JonEisberg

Brent Swain said:


> My sheet blocks cost me around $2 each for materials, the best blocks money can't buy, far better blocks than commercially made ones.
> 
> My roller furler cost me less than $100 for materials to build, again, a far better unit than commercially made ones.


Damn, if I could produce blocks and furlers _far_ superior to what Harken or Schaefer are making, for a mere fraction of the cost, I'd sure as hell think about going into business... 



manatee said:


> I don't know if you can keep it below $500, but these guys can help you simplify your preparations and get going.
> 
> Sensible Cruising: The Thoreau Approach


Thanks, I've been recommending that book for years, don't know why I didn't think of doing so in this thread...

Really a pity it hasn't gotten a wider audience today, but few of today's gizmo-obsessed want to read that sort of stuff


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## aeventyr60

Had to have a laugh and read some of this stuff, after walking back from the wet market on a small Island in southern Thailand. It was all we could do to carry back the 20 bucks worth of fresh fruit, veggies, chicken, pork etc. havent' opened a can in ages. Life is good afloat. what are you waiting for?


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## Tenoch

aeventyr60 said:


> Had to have a laugh and read some of this stuff, after walking back from the wet market on a small Island in southern Thailand. It was all we could do to carry back the 20 bucks worth of fresh fruit, veggies, chicken, pork etc. havent' opened a can in ages. Life is good afloat. what are you waiting for?


As 50 knots of January wind blows across the marina in the middle of the night here in the Northern Hemisphere, this post kicks ass.


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## christian.hess

aeventyr60 said:


> Had to have a laugh and read some of this stuff, after walking back from the wet market on a small Island in southern Thailand. It was all we could do to carry back the 20 bucks worth of fresh fruit, veggies, chicken, pork etc. havent' opened a can in ages. Life is good afloat. what are you waiting for?


here here

where exactly are you...we did thailand to the med in 2006

please stop in sri lanka and maldives...visit the tomb of budhas tooth and in maldives snorkel and fish your life away...plus the women are the most spectacular women I have seen all my life and thats saying a lot cause they are covered up

but those eyes and how they walk! man I still have dreams about them today

wish my old computer didnt crash cause I had all my pics of that trip on the hardrive

massive bummer...


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## MikeOReilly

aeventyr60 said:


> Had to have a laugh and read some of this stuff, after walking back from the wet market on a small Island in southern Thailand. It was all we could do to carry back the 20 bucks worth of fresh fruit, veggies, chicken, pork etc. havent' opened a can in ages. Life is good afloat. what are you waiting for?


Thailand sounds great aeventyr60. This raises the question for me: where should we go? Can we generate a list of countries or regions that would fit with our hypothetical "$500/month" cruiser?

Christian, I know you've mentioned El Salvador as one place. Mexico seems like another. I've heard the Eastern Carib is generally a good place to go. Cuba, Dominica. Love to hear other examples, including actual cost of living numbers if possible.


----------



## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> Thailand sounds great aeventyr60. This raises the question for me: where should we go? Can we generate a list of countries or regions that would fit with our hypothetical "$500/month" cruiser?


you can find all of them by doing a web search on the least expensive places to retire to and get way more info than you will get on a limited sailing forum


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## MikeOReilly

Don0190 said:


> you can find all of them by doing a web search on the least expensive places to retire to and get way more info than you will get on a limited sailing forum


Yes Don, I can google as well. But retiring on land is different than cruising. They overlap of course, but the specifics are different, and one might expect a sailing forum to have people who have first hand experiences. If that is you, please post your suggested locations. If not, then perhaps you and I can learn something.

FYI, thes is a fun tool to play with:

Cost of Living Comparison Between Two Countries


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## Andrew65

Don0190 said:


> you can find all of them by doing a web search on the least expensive places to retire to and get way more info than you will get on a limited sailing forum


EscapeArtist.com is useful. A lot of information.


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## mitchbrown

bljones said:


> assholity


Gota love that word. Nice work BLJ


----------



## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> Yes Don, I can google as well. But retiring on land is different than cruising. They overlap of course, but the specifics are different, and one might expect a sailing forum to have people who have first hand experiences. If that is you, please post your suggested locations. If not, then perhaps you and I can learn something.


I have been looking into places to retire to longer than I have been sailing and only got into sailing to be able to travel.

I still read about less expensive places to retire to, but to date have never seen a less expensive place to sail to that wasn't also on the the less expensive places to retire to. They will have all the same things in common.

So far on this post there has been El Salvador and Thailand, both on the retirement lists.

BTW - if my posts bother you so much, stop replying!


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## barefootnavigator

Like my father used to always tell me, Whether you think you can or can't your right.


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## MikeOReilly

Don0190 said:


> BTW - if my posts bother you so much, stop replying!


Oh, I don't know Don. I guess it's b/c you're always so darn helpful and positive all the time :roll eyes: .


----------



## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> Oh, I don't know Don. I guess it's b/c you're always so darn helpful and positive all the time :roll eyes: .


don't be getting the hots for me, it creeps me out a little


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## DHusk

MikeOReilly, didn't you install a composting head a while back? How do you like it so far. Don't want to start another composting head war, just curious how you like it. It can be another way to reduce costs for maintenance and pump outs.


----------



## Brent Swain

JonEisberg said:


> Damn, if I could produce blocks and furlers _far_ superior to what Harken or Schaefer are making, for a mere fraction of the cost, I'd sure as hell think about going into business...
> 
> Thanks, I've been recommending that book for years, don't know why I didn't think of doing so in this thread...
> 
> Really a pity it hasn't gotten a wider audience today, but few of today's gizmo-obsessed want to read that sort of stuff


I posted the info on building $2 blocks, far superior to anything Harken, Schaefer or Lewmar, etc., sells, on the "Pros and Cons of Steel Sailboats "discussion, for which I was reviled and vehemently attacked by the snobby elitist "Just throw money at it, and if you don't have a lot of money, stay home "advocates . I received 99% attacks, and almost zero backup or credit . Ditto giving such info on most other cruising sites. I have also posted on the " low bucks " discussion, so the guy who claims I haven't, is the ( assholity) liar. I would probably offer more, if you guys would back me up a bit. Without backup, or appreciation, why in hell should I?
A friend, who was the BC Energy Minister, suggested I go into business with my ideas . I suggested he do so, while I go cruising, and I will send him postcards. Why would I go into business, when I don't need the money, and enjoy spending my time far more , going cruising.? If my life aint broke, why would I fix it until it is broke? Greed has never been my master. I have all I need. I have provided all the information needed for anyone who needs the money, and wants to go into business. I don't keep "Trade Secrets ." I consider knowledge "public domain."
Go for it.

As a pressure canner takes up very little more space than the jars you put in it, I cant see any problem canning on the smallest of boats. Jars or cans have to go somewhere. Put them in the canner, and then the canner is not taking up much space. 
My book has all the info one needs on building your own roller furler, as well as how to build an affordable watermaker , lavac style head, composting head, blocks , self steering , anchor winch , hatches, wood stove, steel boat, etc., etc.


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## Brent Swain

Friends did a cruise from BC to the Falklands, spent several years down there, then sailed home to BC. When they got back to BC, most of the expensive gear they had been told they "absolutely had to have", was still in the boxes it came in. 
Like religion, ship swindlery can be a sucker industry.


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## Markwesti

Blocks did someone say blocks . I love blocks .


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## Lou452

Nice blocks a work of art. They look so good. I would not want to let them get wet. They would not do for me I need low maintenance. Wood is the warmest and the most beautiful but not on my boat. I lack the skill, drive and time at this point. 
Good Day, Lou


----------



## MikeOReilly

DHusk said:


> MikeOReilly, didn't you install a composting head a while back? How do you like it so far. Don't want to start another composting head war, just curious how you like it. It can be another way to reduce costs for maintenance and pump outs.


I did ... a Nature's Head. So far, I love it. Got used for about four months this year (our normal season), so take my experience for what it's worth, but I'm very pleased with it. No odour, easy to use and deal with. Works as advertised.

In keeping with the theme of this thread, there's the obvious benefit of never having to pay for another pump out. The other major benefits are very low maintenance costs, simplicity, and the fact that we've now recovered a major storage space which we can fill with essentials like sails, kayaks, and beer .

For two people, full-time, this is a great option. I'd not recommend it for larger full-time crews, but for two its great.


----------



## Markwesti

I hope you enjoyed the pic Lou . But with regards to this thread as in like go now go small on $500. per mo. I posted my wood shell blocks . Because they were economical to make , as apposed to commercial stuff . However at the time , because I owned a machine shop it was easy to make these blocks . Still with the go now and small thought , there are a lot of things you could do to just get out there . I wish I could remember this guys blog, he has a Catalina 30 . The most expensive piece of gear he has is a Monitor wind vane . He started in Ventura Ca. wound up in New Zealand I think. He doesn't have much money at all , but still he has made it half way around .


----------



## DHusk

Thanks for the feed back, Mike. It's pretty consistent with comments from other people with composting toilets. There have been a few people who were not satisfied, but it seems to me that most like them.

This has been a great thread with lots of good ideas. A few people got hung up on the $500 per month figure (it is the title after all), but I don't look at it like a magic number. Identifying ways to cruise on a small budget is really the point.


----------



## aeventyr60

MikeOReilly said:


> Thailand sounds great aeventyr60. This raises the question for me: where should we go? Can we generate a list of countries or regions that would fit with our hypothetical "$500/month" cruiser?
> 
> Christian, I know you've mentioned El Salvador as one place. Mexico seems like another. I've heard the Eastern Carib is generally a good place to go. Cuba, Dominica. Love to hear other examples, including actual cost of living numbers if possible.


Mike, the thing to do is get out of the first world. Sail your boat. stay away from the touristy, yachty type spots, it will suck you and your cash dry. Third world is where it's got to be for the budget cruisers. The 500 bucks a month is a great starting point and is a worthy ideal. Reality paints a slightly different picture. Looking back at the last 4 years in Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines, Borneo we'd be closer to the 10 K mark. 500 a month covers food, booze, fuel, marinas, diesel, eating and drinking out, basic ship supplies etc. The boat really takes about 2000-3000 per year to keep it in prime condition. Better you make a spending plan on the boat up keep, maintenance, up grades and minor tragedies. If you ignore this cost up front your cruising days will be numbered and extremely frustrating. It costs to operate an offshore boat boat anywhere.

In 2013 I did the following:
Pulled the mast and refurbish/paint/pull fittings etc- 1000 bucks
Rebuilt the Hurth Tranny and replace rear main seal + Exhaust riser 750 bucks
Haulout and bottom paint/wax topsides/zincs etc-550 bucks
Replaced V Berth cushions 175 bucks
Removed coach roof teak deck and apply nonskid-400 bucks
Assorted other small stuff bringing it to around 3000 bucks.

We pulled the teak deck off while at anchor and also had the tranny rebuilt while on a mooring. We shopped around for the cheapest haul out and getting the mast pulled was virtually free at a new boat yard. No hardstand charges for the mast storage area for a month.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

cheers!


----------



## Sal Paradise

barefootnavigator said:


> I am sailing in US waters as my dog refuses to go to sea......
> I know there will be naysayers but what I'm really looking for is positive experiences of voyaging on a budget.
> 
> Art Of Hookie | Will work for food or money.


One of the best things you can do for your budget and your dog is to leave her behind.Ok, you want some from experience , with a 22' sailboat and a dog , on a budget? OK - Find a kind person to take the dog please. It is just an innocent and loving creature that needs a home where it can walk around and be a dog. Leave the dog with someone.


----------



## MikeOReilly

aeventyr60 said:


> Mike, the thing to do is get out of the first world. Sail your boat. stay away from the touristy, yachty type spots, it will suck you and your cash dry. Third world is where it's got to be for the budget cruisers. The 500 bucks a month is a great starting point and is a worthy ideal. Reality paints a slightly different picture. Looking back at the last 4 years in Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines, Borneo we'd be closer to the 10 K mark. ...


Many thanks aeventyr60. Good advice. We'll be doing just as you suggest. I feel a bit confined though b/c we are up at the top of the Great Lakes. No matter how we go, we are a long way from the 3rd world, non-touristy areas. But that is our plan (as much as we have a plan).

Thanks for the real numbers. While we're aiming for the theoretical $500/month (or less), we're actually budgeting for quite a bit more, especially in the first few years.


----------



## Donna_F

We're not voyaging and this may not interest the OP, but for others who might be interested since it is a way of cutting costs:

We belong to a sail club that is a member of a yacht club umbrella organization. For the $40/year sail club membership we can stay at any of the member yacht clubs (almost all include electric, water, bath facilities, inexpensive bars and restaurants) for $25-$30/night as long as they have a slip available. Considering that we've paid up to $130/night to stay at a marina, I consider the $40 well spent and it pays for itself in just one night at a member club instead of a commercial marina. A few of our club members have also received reciprocity at yacht clubs around the U.S., not just with the Chesapeake Bay member clubs.

We've stayed at some very friendly and not at all stuffy yacht clubs. One invited us (and the other transient boats) to help them get rid of their food so we had a fantastic BBQ and met new sailors. That night the cost of the slip also included dinner so that increased the savings.

When we're on a multi-day trip we anchor most nights but it is nice to get an inexpensive slip with amenities and where we can top off the ice and water and my 77-YO Boat Fluff can stretch her legs.


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## barefootnavigator

Sal, I'm not sure how most people take care of their dogs but mine get s to explore every beach every day, we go on long hikes and climb mountains and explore every inch of every island we visit. She is 12 years old and has never been left behind or home alone, she goes where I go as she has since she was a pup. I cant imagine a better life for a dog. When she goes to that big field in the sky my cruising grounds will expand, as for now life couldn't be better for either of us.

http://logofthe.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/017_14a.jpg


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## MikeOReilly

DRFerron said:


> We belong to a sail club that is a member of a yacht club umbrella organization. For the $40/year sail club membership we can stay at any of the member yacht clubs (almost all include electric, water, bath facilities, inexpensive bars and restaurants) for $25-$30/night as long as they have a slip available.


Sounds very interesting. Details. Names. Website. Can transients join?


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## travlin-easy

Donna, is there any way to get a listing of the member yacht clubs?

Gary


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## Donna_F

travlineasy said:


> Donna, is there any way to get a listing of the member yacht clubs?
> 
> Gary


Sure. CBYCA Member Yacht Clubs


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## Donna_F

MikeOReilly said:


> Sounds very interesting. Details. Names. Website. Can transients join?


CBYCA Member Yacht Clubs

You would have to join a sail club or yacht club that is a member, not directly as an individual. We have some members in my club who joined our club so they can use the reciprocity benefit. Some of our members live in Tennessee, North Carolina and Florida but most at one time had lived locally and they continued the membership after they moved away.


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## lennyv

Cruising cheaply depends a lot on your location. Hear in So Cal nothing is cheap or free but the bad attitudes. Low cost cruising is looked down upon, and is made impossibly difficult or just plain illegal. I would like to hear from other locations.


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## xort

DRFerron said:


> CBYCA Member Yacht Clubs
> 
> You would have to join a sail club or yacht club that is a member, not directly as an individual. We have some members in my club who joined our club so they can use the reciprocity benefit. Some of our members live in Tennessee, North Carolina and Florida but most at one time had lived locally and they continued the membership after they moved away.


So can a cruising boat join your club?


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## barefootnavigator

I have found dozens of wonderful places to sail cheaply in So Cal, Catalina for starters. The fishing and diving is wonderful everywhere is So cal. Where are you based out of?


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## Donna_F

xort said:


> So can a cruising boat join your club?


We don't care. 

John and I are looking for our Next Boat, which will be a cruising boat and we'll still be members.


----------



## Lou452

DRFerron said:


> We're not voyaging and this may not interest the OP, but for others who might be interested since it is a way of cutting costs:
> 
> "We belong to a sail club that is a member of a yacht club umbrella organization. For the $40/year sail club membership we can stay at any of the member yacht clubs (almost all include electric, water, bath facilities, inexpensive bars and restaurants) for $25-$30/night as long as they have a slip available. Considering that we've paid up to $130/night to stay at a marina, I consider the $40 well spent and it pays for itself in just one night at a member club instead of a commercial marina. A few of our club members have also received reciprocity at yacht clubs around the U.S., not just with the Chesapeake Bay member clubs.


I am in a club it is $80 a year has lessons and helpful sailors. I am new to this and plan to keep local until I gain some (sea legs) I need to learn before I go over the horizon. Bummfuzzle seem to start with a pile of cash and a lot of luck. I will need skill to survive and enjoy


----------



## xort

DRFerron said:


> We don't care. .


are you sure?  
clubs aften require someone to vouch for an applicant for a good 
Reason!


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## Donna_F

xort said:


> are you sure?
> clubs aften require someone to vouch for an applicant for a good
> Reason!


I belong to a sailing club, not a yacht club. Different animal.

Yes. I'm sure.


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## wannabsailor

If you didn't have the dog 100.00 a week would do fine. Go to you-tube and search wayne dwyer's "shanty boat..." then you will find out just how loaded you are! 
If you are having fun the money won't matter all that much.


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## Brent Swain

Markwesti said:


> Blocks did someone say blocks . I love blocks .


Just build the cheeks and becket out of one piece of 3/16th aluminium and you have the blocks I build. I timed myself once, using only hand tools. Took me 20 minutes to build a single sheave block. Less time than it takes to go buy one.


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## Lou452

I think this thread Should have a title like sailing on less ? When You put a fixed dollar amount like the $500 it might find some people not checking the thread out. Then again if I had a boat load of money I would enjoy it and go well above $500 a month ? This is not for sure because I have not been on a voyage.
Regards, Lou


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## Markwesti

I like sailing on less. I'm fortunate to have one of the last (at least in my area) do it yourself yards . I had a two week stay at Eddie's cost me $1,700.00 and that included $500 .00 worth of bottom paint . I did the work, but still a good deal for my area . Two weeks I know long time I had a big blister job. And after 4yrs. they have not come back ! Any where else around here (if I had the yard do it) $6,000.00 easy. 
Hey Brent I'm glad you like my blocks , they take a while to make but they last for ever .


----------



## MikeOReilly

Markwesti said:


> I like sailing on less. I'm fortunate to have one of the last (at least in my area) do it yourself yards . I had a two week stay at Eddie's cost me $1,700.00 and that included $500 .00 worth of bottom paint . I did the work, but still a good deal for my area . Two weeks I know long time I had a big blister job. And after 4yrs. they have not come back ! Any where else around here (if I had the yard do it) $6,000.00 easy.


This is one of the things that scare me. DIY is obviously the only way live inexpensively. I hear DIY yards are dying off, and are increasingly hard to find. I've actually known no other in my ~10 years of boat ownership. It would be good to have a list of DIY yards for us cost-concious cruisers.


----------



## mad_machine

there are a few yards around here.. most of them are now surrounded by Condos, so they do not -any- DIY work done. I can only think of one that does, and it is out in the marshes all by itself.. and if you want to do work, you tell them on haulout and they put you way in the back away from everyone else


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## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> This is one of the things that scare me. DIY is obviously the only way live inexpensively. I hear DIY yards are dying off, and are increasingly hard to find. I've actually known no other in my ~10 years of boat ownership. It would be good to have a list of DIY yards for us cost-concious cruisers.


there is a place in moss landing, ca where I hauled out and did it all myself...bottom job, engine realignment, new cutlass bearing and windvane removal and reeinstall

great place...close to monterey and santa cruz....

neither of those places let you do work....at least not anyting with a power tool

there are also a lot of places now that wont even let you go up on deck if you are on stands!

whatever


----------



## Markwesti

For anyone who needs it Eddie's Marine is at Cerritos Yacht Anchorage . Thats Wilmington Ca. Phone is (310)834 4744 . They are limited to 14,000 lbs. on the crane . Like all yards now (around here) they request you buy the paint from them . I like that because they give me a better price than I could find anywhere else . Eddie's rents the space their on mo. by mo. from the city . The city is doing a redevelopment of the area . So will see how long they last .


----------



## christian.hess

nice boat btw!


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## barefootnavigator

I've had the opportunity to meet Mark and go aboard and let me tell you the pictures don't do her justice, she is a prime example of the word yacht. She is impossibly perfect


----------



## Omatako

Alex W said:


> If this thread is going to remain honest it has to be about a continuous budget of $500/mo, not one where you spend lots of money outfitting and then live on nothing for some period of time until you have an expensive outfitting period again. If that were the game then it was won years ago by non-stop round the world cruisers who spend a year or more on the water without spending a dime. It was all spent before they left.


Sorry, I have come into this discussion very late it seems, I have just returned from a three week sailing break.

How do you figure the quoted statement? One has to save to become debt free. One has to buy a boat. One has to generate some form of ongoing income or a create a contributing nest egg to afford cruising at all. All of these things are preparatory to going cruising. How does the fit-out of a boat with all the stuff that will make future cruising affordable not fit with this process?

Very, very few people intend to cruise forever. Even the Pardys don't cruise anymore, at least not full-time. How do I know this? Because they live up the road from me and I haven't seen their boat around here anywhere. So the concept of cruising has a finite life cycle.

I am busy doing what Barefoot is doing. We are sorting our boat with all the things that make cruising not camping. We are building a reserve of cash to fund some of the costs. We are waiting until our pensions kick in to provide on going funds. When that is all in place we'll be off. Then we'll cruise until we can no longer afford it or until we stop enjoying it. That could take 10 years or six weeks, who knows?

But it is not my intention to keep my boat as a showpiece no matter what the cost. My boat is not my passion, sailing is. The boat is a tool that I will use to fulfil the desired lifestyle. As long as it remains dependable and safe that will be good enough and that is what the maintenance costs will be limited to.

But then it flies in the face of the original statement quoted above - will the boat be worth what it is when I leave by the time I get back? Not a chance. And for me, that depreciation is part of the cost of cruising.

We have done several trans continental voyages and whilst I don't have recorded costs of the voyages, I think that $500 a month is tight. But, like I said above, we're not going out there to camp.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Picking up on the "not wanting to camp" idea, I'm curious what people need so as to avoid this dreaded state. What are your key criteria for a pleasurable life afloat? I'm curious what people think, b/c personally I love camping. I also know that life on our boat is nothing like camping. Living on a boat that doesn't leak (much), with a galley, comfortable berths, tons of storage, lights, an indoor head, plumbing, etc. ... all of this is nothing like camping. 

So, is it basic physical comfort? Is it being able to play ashore; purchasing entertainment, eating at restaurants, buy stuff beyond basic needs? Is it expensive food (you often hear people talk about not wanting to live on beans and rice)? Or is it more basic like being able to pay all the entrance fees that (apparently) are on the rise everywhere. Perhaps it is having lots of leisure time? Or maybe it is ease of tasks/jobs...


----------



## Donna_F

Mike, you might want to create your question in a new thread. It seems worthwhile on its own.


----------



## JonEisberg

Omatako said:


> Very, very few people intend to cruise forever. Even the Pardys don't cruise anymore, at least not full-time. How do I know this? Because they live up the road from me and I haven't seen their boat around here anywhere. So the concept of cruising has a finite life cycle.


Guess you haven't heard, but TALEISEN is for sale:

1983 Lyle C. Hess Cutter Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I'm guessing they're not likely to get the full asking price...


----------



## BMLipiec

JonEisberg said:


> Agree completely... I'm just not seeing many people out there tricking out their boats with expensive gear, battery banks, freezers, watermakers, and the myriad of costly means of power generation to support such systems, and then going off and living a very low-budget lifestyle... Sure, there may be some out there taking such an approach, but I'm sure not running into them...
> 
> The primary reason, I believe, has to do with the other kind of insurance that hasn't much been talked about in this thread... Namely, boat insurance... Not many people are are gonna invest, say, $100-150K in a boat, and then take off without insurance... And, if you're truly "voyaging", crossing oceans and the like, insurance for a Mom & Pop couple is gonna be expensive, and very difficult to obtain for a singlehander...
> 
> So, seems for those on the $500/month budget, 'self-insuring', or sailing a boat you can afford to lose, is the only way to go... I just don't see how it's possible to fit worldwide insurance coverage into such a modest budget, hence the rarity of seeing people out there in high-end, tricked-out boats spending no more than $6K/year on their "voyaging"...


First, this is a great thread with a lot of great input. I just found it last night and have been reading it from the beginning.

We are taking off for extended cruising this summer and Jon's comment above is exactly our approach. For the past 5 years we have been upgrading and outfitting our boat while we still have paychecks coming in. Once we push off, our financial situation changes drastically and we have to switch to living as frugally as possible. I understand Alex's point but not everyone (most even?) cruise forever. I'm not sure why this is not considered a valid approach to cruising cheaply?

I have talked to many cruisers and read every blog, book and magazine I can find on cruising and the one thing that jumps out at me is that there is no one right answer. I've seen 74' Deerfoots to 22' Falmouth Cutters, blue water boats and coastal cruisers, money is no object to scrounge for everything, zero electronics to every gadget imaginable, etc, etc. The point is that all those people are successfully cruising. I think that you have to find the style that suits you and your budget. I love these discussions because I usually find a nugget or two that I identify with and can put to good use.

Also, I would like to think that "voyaging" can be whatever we want it to be, whether that is a 6 month circumnavigation of the Chesapeake Bay or a 10 year circumnavigation of the planet. If I'm only planning on cruising for a couple of years (probably the majority of cruisers) then I don't need to worry about having to buy new sails, batteries, rigging, etc., in seven or ten years. Upgrade to good equipment before you go and, hopefully, you shouldn't have to worry about it. Even if you are to keep going, Barefootnavigator hit the nail on the head when he said he could find a temporary job to pay for a refit.

We are planning an open ended cruise and will keep going until one of us has had enough. Our monthly budget will undoubtedly be more than $500/mo, but we are striving to live on as little as possible. To Jon's point, we don't think we will have the money for boat insurance and will probably only carry the required coverage in Mexico. After that, our plan is to work our way across the Pacific and will probably have to go without insurance. Jon is right in that our entire life savings is largely currently floating in the slip, however, we will not let that stop us from going cruising. It is, after all, just money. I believe I would regret not going, more than losing the boat while out exploring the world.


----------



## MikeOReilly

BMLipiec said:


> First, this is a great thread with a lot of great input. I just found it last night and have been reading it from the beginning.
> 
> We are taking off for extended cruising this summer and Jon's comment above is exactly our approach. For the past 5 years we have been upgrading and outfitting our boat while we still have paychecks coming in. Once we push off, our financial situation changes drastically and we have to switch to living as frugally as possible. I understand Alex's point but not everyone (most even?) cruise forever. I'm not sure why this is not considered a valid approach to cruising cheaply? ...
> 
> Jon is right in that our entire life savings is largely currently floating in the slip, however, we will not let that stop us from going cruising. It is, after all, just money. I believe I would regret not going, more than losing the boat while out exploring the world.


Geeze Brian & Marya, your path sounds identical to what my wife and I are doing. We've been investing in our boat, and our skills, for the past four years. We've built up a small kitty that will last as long as it will last. We have no real plans, except to get going, and see where the winds blow us. We'll stop when the money runs out, or when it's no longer fun.


----------



## christian.hess

that last sentence is money!(man you guys type real fast!!!!!!!, post before mikes! jajaja) so you lose your boat...ok...keep living and seacrh for another, chin up...

motissier did it...dont know why we lesser beings cant either


----------



## Brent Swain

Fortunately I live on a twin keeler in an area with up to 17 ft tides, which has enabled me to go 29 years with only 2 haul outs. The only reason I did them was because I was in an area with too little tidal range, and a 4,000 mile windward bash ahead of me. 

When I get attacked and reviled for offering simpler, more affordable solutions, I am beginning to suspect it is from the ship swindlers and their lackeys, or from those who use lack of money as their excuse for not going, and , while they talk a great cruise, are irritated at anyone blowing their cover, and undermining their excuse for not going.
I began dreaming about the cruising life when I was 15. That was a long time ago and I am still living aboard and cruising full time, with no intention of quitting. Allen Farell was a couple of months short of 90 and still cruising when he died. I am told my great great grandfather played soccer on his 100th birthday. No excuse for me quitting early. "I am too old" quickly becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
I just cant picture myself living any other lifestyle.


----------



## Omatako

MikeOReilly said:


> Picking up on the "not wanting to camp" idea, I'm curious what people need so as to avoid this dreaded state. What are your key criteria for a pleasurable life afloat? I'm curious what people think, b/c personally I love camping. I also know that life on our boat is nothing like camping. Living on a boat that doesn't leak (much), with a galley, comfortable berths, tons of storage, lights, an indoor head, plumbing, etc. ... all of this is nothing like camping.
> 
> So, is it basic physical comfort? Is it being able to play ashore; purchasing entertainment, eating at restaurants, buy stuff beyond basic needs? Is it expensive food (you often hear people talk about not wanting to live on beans and rice)? Or is it more basic like being able to pay all the entrance fees that (apparently) are on the rise everywhere. Perhaps it is having lots of leisure time? Or maybe it is ease of tasks/jobs...


So if you want to equate sailing with camping, follow the link to the Pardy's boat (Taleisin) in Jon Eisberg's post above and check the equipment spec. No engine, no fridge, no hot showers, no frozen food storage, no guaranteed water supply, no long range comms, minimal standing head room, just the fundamental basics. That's camping at sea. And that's not for me. YMMV. You may notice that there is only one photo of the interior - that's because essentially there is nothing to show.

I expect from my boat what I expect from my home, cold beer, hot showers, water when I need it, frozen storage for fish I catch and so on. And if all the systems are installed and working when I set off, I don't expect them to be a major drain on my sailing finances.

I have the advantage of having a created/installed a number of my own systems so I know how they work and how to keep them working. And none of them are mission critical so if they stop working, nobody's safety will be threatened.

Let's face it, bells and whistles are not necessarily money drains.


----------



## Omatako

JonEisberg said:


> Guess you haven't heard, but TALEISEN is for sale:
> 
> 1983 Lyle C. Hess Cutter Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
> 
> I'm guessing they're not likely to get the full asking price...


Yep, I agree, if they want the price in US$ as advertised then it's a little crazy.

If they want it in NZ$ as stated in the "Description", maybe less so but still a big ask for what is essentially a rather primitive boat albeit it with considerable history.

Just for interest, I met the guy who bought Wanderer IV (ex Eric Hiscock) and he got it for less that US$100K and it was way more boat than Taleisin with a similar pedigree.


----------



## barefootnavigator

Omatako Boy do you have a lot to learn


----------



## capta

A lovely little craft indeed but, no matter what the pedigree, I can't imagine any individual would pay even half of 175k, for a 1983, 30' wood boat.


----------



## Omatako

barefootnavigator said:


> Omatako Boy do you have a lot to learn


Really? Perhaps you can enlighten me? Using all of your sailing experience and years of boat ownership I'm all ears.


----------



## JonEisberg

Brent Swain said:


> When I get attacked and reviled for offering simpler, more affordable solutions, I am beginning to suspect it is from the ship swindlers and their lackeys...


You have a vivid imagination...

Coupled, I suspect, with a bit of a persecution complex...


----------



## MikeOReilly

Omatako said:


> I expect from my boat what I expect from my home, cold beer, hot showers, water when I need it, frozen storage for fish I catch and so on. And if all the systems are installed and working when I set off, I don't expect them to be a major drain on my sailing finances.


I posted your comment, and my response, over on the "Camping" thread Omatako. Hope that's OK: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...ping-while-cruising-frugally.html#post1309874


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## christian.hess

you guys need to look at restored wooden boats and prices rich people pay for them...

its more than any NEW craptastic similiar sized glass boat

just sayin

wooden boats are art when done well


----------



## MikeOReilly

Getting back to inexpensive cruising, I use a manual windlass to haul my 55# anchor and 3/8" chain. I love my windlass, but it is certainly slower than an electric. In 10+ years of seasonal cruising I've yet to run into an insurmountable problem with not having an electric windlass, but you often hear concerns raised about needing to get off a lee shore quickly. 

Has anyone had a problem with their manual windlass? Better still, anyone have any innovative ways of using your manual windlass.


----------



## copacabana

Mike, I have a manual windlass on my boat too. On the last day of my cruise this January I was entering a little bay where I have a mooring when I was hit with a 40kt gale. It was pitch dark and raining sheets (isn't it always when things go wrong!!). Well, I tried to anchor but didn't like the proximity to the rocks. I had to raise the anchor, rush to the helm to get out (and all against a 40 knot wind!). All I can say is I got that anchor and chain up in a matter of seconds! When the proverbial hits the fan, it's amazing how you find a reserve of strength. Then the real Chinese fire drill started when the the steering cable parted and I was almost on the rocks, but that's another story....


----------



## Andrew65

Just a thought, but if anyone did by the beautiful Taleisin, wouldn't you always be just known as the guy or girl who bought their boat or be approached a lot and asked where is Lin and Larry? You could never change the name either if you wanted to. Their reputation would follow it where ever you sailed.


----------



## northoceanbeach

Yeah. I wouldn't want a boat famous for what someone else did on it. At least not for a premium price. That boat is always going to be theirs. If you liked their style I could see buying a similar boat and using some of their ideas.


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## Lou452

Andrew65 said:


> Just a thought, but if anyone did by the beautiful Taleisin, wouldn't you always be just known as the guy or girl who bought their boat or be approached a lot and asked where is Lin and Larry? You could never change the name either if you wanted to. Their reputation would follow it where ever you sailed.


You know this is not me. To each his own, I am positive that somebody wants to buy Taleisin Just because they want to be approached a lot. 
Kind Regards , Lou


----------



## MikeOReilly

copacabana said:


> Mike, I have a manual windlass on my boat too. On the last day of my cruise this January I was entering a little bay where I have a mooring when I was hit with a 40kt gale. It was pitch dark and raining sheets (isn't it always when things go wrong!!). Well, I tried to anchor but didn't like the proximity to the rocks. I had to raise the anchor, rush to the helm to get out (and all against a 40 knot wind!). All I can say is I got that anchor and chain up in a matter of seconds! When the proverbial hits the fan, it's amazing how you find a reserve of strength. Then the real Chinese fire drill started when the the steering cable parted and I was almost on the rocks, but that's another story....


Sounds like a heck of a night. You're right about the wonders of adrenaline. I know if I had to, I would haul up our anchor and chain in no time. That said, I learned to appreciate just how heavy our anchoring system is after we broke our windlass handle 4 weeks into a 6-week trip. We were in a wilderness part of Lake Superior, so were on our own for repairs. I managed to fashion a replacement, but for a while it looked like we were back to using our backs. A few attempts to lift it myself made me realize I ain't as young as I use to be .

We now carry backup handles...


----------



## JonEisberg

MikeOReilly said:


> Getting back to inexpensive cruising, I use a manual windlass to haul my 55# anchor and 3/8" chain. I love my windlass, but it is certainly slower than an electric. In 10+ years of seasonal cruising I've yet to run into an insurmountable problem with not having an electric windlass, but you often hear concerns raised about needing to get off a lee shore quickly.
> 
> Has anyone had a problem with their manual windlass? Better still, anyone have any innovative ways of using your manual windlass.


I had a Lofrans Royal manual on my boat for a number of years, and it was certainly adequate... However, the eventual switch to an electric Kobra is some of the best money I've ever spent... Of course, such an upgrade will consume any $500/month budget for at least a full season 

Quicker retrieval in an emergency has generally been the primary rationale for a powered windlass, but I've yet to find myself in a situation on my own boat where it might have made a significant difference... I think the biggest advantage, for most people, is that the ease of retrieval might 'encourage' people to re-anchor, when a first or second attempt in a dicey or tight spot turns out to be less than ideal, to keep repeating the drop until you get it exactly right... I know there were times when I had a manual windlass, at the end of a long day, when I simply wasn't in the mood for repeated attempts at getting the hook down just the way I wanted it, and wound up settling for 'close enough'... 

But, there's another very important consideration for cruising couples. Namely, that the smaller, weaker partner should still be able to perform any physical chore aboard, in the event of the other becoming incapacitated, going overboard... This, of course, is the single thing that scares me most about so many of the older couples I see out there on large boats, many of the women would be so clearly overmatched by the boat's size and some of the forces involved in an emergency situation...

Incidentally, one of my yardsticks for recommended maximum boat size has always been the ability to get the anchor back up, manually and unassisted by either another crewmember or engine, in a rising wind building towards gale force... That would limit me to something in about the 40' range, or thereabouts...

"Creative use' of a windlass? Most common, I suppose, is using one to hoist someone up the rig... However, that's generally an idea don't like at all. Hoisting a tender on deck is one thing, but a live body up the mast is a whole different ballgame, and very rarely can a halyard be re-configured to have a proper/fair lead to a windlass...

Horizontal is the only way to go, in my opinion...


----------



## christian.hess

Id love one...my boat came with one and the po took it off before selling...it had a battery locker at the forepeak...and all holes for the windlass..controls, etc....as of right now Ill be using nylon rode and maybe 20feet or so of big chain...only to make setting easier....

it will be all young and dumb mussle for now as I have no where to get even a manual windlass down here

I do have extra winches I could play around with...thought about using leather to get more grip on the drum for both chain and nylon but it would be a vertical windlass low on deck and small

the po of my boat had all winches for lines led aft and left the mast and deck winches too

so maybe one of them in 2 speed may work?

this is budget for sure...hope someone has ideas! jajaja

boat is almost done!


----------



## MikeOReilly

JonEisberg said:


> Quicker retrieval in an emergency has generally been the primary rationale for a powered windlass, but I've yet to find myself in a situation on my own boat where it might have made a significant difference... I think the biggest advantage, for most people, is that the ease of retrieval might 'encourage' people to re-anchor, when a first or second attempt in a dicey or tight spot turns out to be less than ideal,


I think this is a good point Jon. We certainly re-anchor when we're not happy with our set, or our swing. It can be a pain in the butt, but I don't think our manual windlass (a bronze Plath/ABI type, and now have a seatiger as well) has ever deterred us. I could be deluding myself though (not the first time ).

Of course you could look at it a different way though. Perhaps a manual windlass might encourage people to be better at anchoring so as to get it right the first time ... hard to say.



JonEisberg said:


> But, there's another very important consideration for cruising couples. Namely, that the smaller, weaker partner should still be able to perform any physical chore aboard, in the event of the other becoming incapacitated, going overboard...


Absolutely, 100% agree. All crew on short-handed boat (usually a hubby & wife) must be able to do everything. That includes everything from anchoring to cooking. On our boat my wife and I take turns with pretty much all duties, including setting and weighing anchor. Our windlass requires little muscle strength -- certainly more than pushing a button, but less than operating our yankee winches under full load.


----------



## Omatako

JonEisberg said:


> But, there's another very important consideration for cruising couples. Namely, that the smaller, weaker partner should still be able to perform any physical chore aboard, in the event of the other becoming incapacitated, going overboard... This, of course, is the single thing that scares me most about so many of the older couples I see out there on large boats, many of the women would be so clearly overmatched by the boat's size and some of the forces involved in an emergency situation...


That would be a very limiting factor for most passage-makers. There are extremely few ladies out there in the cruising world that can lift 60 metres of 3/8" chain with a 35kg anchor on the end of it when the windlass goes tits-up. I am 125kgs and considered to be stronger than average and it is a struggle for me. But I guess if one wants the safety at sea to absolutely bullet-proof, then none of us should exceed 21ft in boat length. That would be about the limit of ground tackle that my wife could manually recover. Alternately, send the missus on Charles Atlas course. 

Seriously though, thinking about our boat, it is probably only the ground tackle recovery that would present a strength issue and dumping the ground tackle in the sea in an emergency would seem the obvious solution.



JonEisberg said:


> Hoisting a tender on deck is one thing, but a live body up the mast is a whole different ballgame, and very rarely can a halyard be re-configured to have a proper/fair lead to a windlass...


Once again, have to disagree. We belay three turns of the halyard around a self tailing mast winch which then very fairly leads onto the windlass (horizontal Lofrans Tigres) capstan. In the very unlikely event that the halyard should slip three turns off the windlass capstan , the self tailer is more than capable of holding the weight of a live body.


----------



## JonEisberg

Omatako said:


> Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> 
> But, there's another very important consideration for cruising couples. Namely, that the smaller, weaker partner should still be able to perform any physical chore aboard, in the event of the other becoming incapacitated, going overboard... This, of course, is the single thing that scares me most about so many of the older couples I see out there on large boats, many of the women would be so clearly overmatched by the boat's size and some of the forces involved in an emergency situation...
> 
> 
> 
> That would be a very limiting factor for most passage-makers. There are extremely few ladies out there in the cruising world that can lift 60 metres of 3/8" chain with a 35kg anchor on the end of it when the windlass goes tits-up. I am 125kgs and considered to be stronger than average and it is a struggle for me. But I guess if one wants the safety at sea to absolutely bullet-proof, then none of us should exceed 21ft in boat length. That would be about the limit of ground tackle that my wife could manually recover. Alternately, send the missus on Charles Atlas course.
> 
> Seriously though, thinking about our boat, it is probably only the ground tackle recovery that would present a strength issue and dumping the ground tackle in the sea in an emergency would seem the obvious solution.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I should have been clearer, there... I meant that anyone should be capable of anchor retrieval using the windlass in a manual/backup mode... If I had no option beyond hauling up an all-chain rode on a 40-footer in 30 knots of breeze by hand, you can bet I'd be slipping that rode, as well 



Omatako said:


> Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> 
> Hoisting a tender on deck is one thing, but a live body up the mast is a whole different ballgame, and very rarely can a halyard be re-configured to have a proper/fair lead to a windlass...
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, have to disagree. We belay three turns of the halyard around a self tailing mast winch which then very fairly leads onto the windlass (horizontal Lofrans Tigres) capstan. In the very unlikely event that the halyard should slip three turns off the windlass capstan , the self tailer is more than capable of holding the weight of a live body.
Click to expand...

Again, I stated that poorly... Obviously, your setup works fine for you, but I thing that's largely due to the fact you apparently have your halyard winches on the mast... I was thinking of how prevalent halyards being led back to the cockpit have become today, and the times I've seen people re-routing through a turning block on deck to a windlass, which rarely results in a fair lead... I once saw someone employ a _SNATCH BLOCK_ to configure the turn from the deck to the windlass, you couldn't pay me enough to be hoisted up a rig with that sort of setup...

But, that could just be me, I'm paranoid about going aloft, anyway


----------



## JonEisberg

MikeOReilly said:


> Of course you could look at it a different way though. Perhaps a manual windlass might encourage people to be better at anchoring so as to get it right the first time ... hard to say.


I don't know, seems to me anyone who doesn't attempt to get their anchoring right the _FIRST_ time, _EVERY_ time, might want to consider taking up a different hobby...


----------



## christian.hess

thats utter nonsense, a good mariner will always check after anchoring if indeed he has set well or not...if you even have a doubt you re set...as many times as you please for peace of mind and prudency regarding other boats around you.

I have dove on anchors expecially in coral reefs or areas that are rocky and then sand beds all around to specifically make sure the anchor is just not being taught by the chain being wrapped around a coral head or big rock etc...I have even seen anchors just hanging on rocks like this and this was enough to keep the boat anchored in mild weather

many times we dragged but thats more an issue with big windshifts like in the red sea , or the fact like mentioned before that sometimes its your chain and rode that gets caught and your anchor is all nice and loose taking a nap on the sea bed

seen it many times

if you think you can anchor perfect the first time every time good luck(maybe its a language thing or Im not understanding the saying very well) but I would never think myself so profficient and state that I should be setting the first time EVERY TIME

in real life it just doesnt happen that way...especially if your primary anchor likes certain bottoms more than others

in panama I clearly remeber hauling up a perfectly sized boulder the size of my claw anchor it was so perfect that my anchor weighed twice what it normally wheighed and the boat dragged but only after sitting for 4 days, the suction of the mud held the rock boulder until too many windshifts and tides released it after ecxerting enough lift...

just saying guys


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## JonEisberg

christian.hess said:


> thats utter nonsense, a good mariner will always check after anchoring if indeed he has set well or not...if you even have a doubt you re set...as many times as you please for peace of mind and prudency regarding other boats around you.
> 
> ...
> 
> if you think you can anchor perfect the first time every time good luck(maybe its a language thing or Im not understanding the saying very well) but I would never think myself so profficient and state that I should be setting the first time EVERY TIME
> 
> in real life it just doesnt happen that way...especially if your primary anchor likes certain bottoms more than others


Guess you must have missed what I wrote in Post # 374...



JonEisberg said:


> I think the biggest advantage, for most people, is that the ease of retrieval might 'encourage' people to re-anchor, when a first or second attempt in a dicey or tight spot turns out to be less than ideal, to keep repeating the drop until you get it exactly right...


...or the bolded word in the post you're responding to 



JonEisberg said:


> I don't know, seems to me anyone who doesn't *attempt* to get their anchoring right the FIRST time, EVERY time, might want to consider taking up a different hobby...


----------



## christian.hess

sorry it must be the language thing...didnt mean to offend I just focused on the first time every time part and that seemed wildly overreaching

sorry bud

carry on! jajaja

christian


----------



## JonEisberg

christian.hess said:


> sorry it must be the language thing...didnt mean to offend I just focused on the first time every time part and that seemed wildly overreaching
> 
> sorry bud
> 
> carry on! jajaja
> 
> christian


No worries, mate... 

Another book recommendation appropriate to this thread that just occurred to me... Perhaps it's already been mentioned, I'm not gonna review the entire thread to check, but I don't recall seeing a mention made of Annie Hill...

Been a long time since I read it, but probably one of the best resources out there relative to the scope of this thread:

Voyaging On A Small Income, 2nd Edition: Annie Hill, John Blackburn: 9781888671377: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51aI9QMwvyL

Her blog is worth a look, as well:

Voyaging with Annie Hill


----------



## MikeOReilly

JonEisberg said:


> Another book recommendation appropriate to this thread that just occurred to me... Perhaps it's already been mentioned, I'm not gonna review the entire thread to check, but I don't recall seeing a mention made of Annie Hill...


Yes, great book. I think it's already been mentioned, but another classic is:
Sailing the Farm: Independence on Thirty Feet - A Survival Guide to Homesteading the Ocean: Ken Neumeyer: 9780898150513: Books - [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@31dpclIX5zL

And of course, many from the Pardey's, most particularly the Cost Conscious Cruiser.
Cost Conscious Cruiser: Lin & Larry Pardey: 9780964603653: Books - [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@515ycgiTMmL


----------



## Omatako

MikeOReilly said:


> And of course, many from the Pardey's, most particularly the Cost Conscious Cruiser.


Ironically, the Pardy's Cost Conscious Cruiser (or any of their other books for that matter), if purchased for Kindle reading, is one the more expensive sailing books on the market. 

The Cost Conscious Cruiser by Lin Pardey and Larry Pardey (Dec 10, 1998) - Kindle eBook

$29.95 Print Price
$16.27 Kindle Edition

Most other Kindle editions on sailing are between one and six bucks.


----------



## barefootnavigator

Or $3.00 used


----------



## MikeOReilly

Omatako said:


> Ironically, the Pardy's Cost Conscious Cruiser (or any of their other books for that matter), if purchased for Kindle reading, is one the more expensive sailing books on the market.


Too bad most of the money goes to Kindle and the publisher...

Actually, I see _Sailing the Farm_ is selling for $78 to $211. I better keep my copy in good shape. Who knows, it could become my retirement fund .


----------



## Donna_F

It's still available as a free PDF.

Edit: Confused with another author.


----------



## MikeOReilly

DRFerron said:


> It's still available as a free PDF.


Yes, but unless the owner has authorized this (which I doubt), then downloading this would be a copyright violation. IOW, theft.


----------



## MikeOReilly

DRFerron said:


> When I first downloaded it he did. But he also gave links to the Kindle version in case anyone didn't like reading PDFs. That's how I first found it.


That's great Donna. I did not know that. Is the notice posted somewhere to that affect? Permission does need to be explicit, and in writing.


----------



## Donna_F

Nope. Can't find the link. That was why I downloaded it the first time. Absent that, you are correct.

Wait. Confused him with Webb Chiles. Disregard.


----------



## newhaul

MikeOReilly said:


> Yes, but unless the owner has authorized this (which I doubt), then downloading this would be a copyright violation. IOW, theft.


Actually wouldn't be theft anymore I contacted ten speed press and they have no record of ever publishing 'sailing the farm' idk that was a couple years ago when I contacted them for a reprint that would have only cost ten bucks.


----------



## MikeOReilly

newhaul said:


> Actually wouldn't be theft anymore I contacted ten speed press and they have no record of ever publishing 'sailing the farm' idk that was a couple years ago when I contacted them for a reprint that would have only cost ten bucks.


They probably do not own the copyright. In fact, the standard book publishing contract up until fairly recently was that all rights would revert back to the author once a book went out of print. That's probably why they would have no record ... they have no further rights involved.


----------



## newhaul

MikeOReilly said:


> They probably do not own the copyright. In fact, the standard book publishing contract up until fairly recently was that all rights would revert back to the author once a book went out of print. That's probably why they would have no record ... they have no further rights involved.


Ok thanks for that info so the only way to purchace it is used from someone and the authors rarely get royalties from sales of used books


----------



## MikeOReilly

newhaul said:


> Ok thanks for that info so the only way to purchace it is used from someone and the authors rarely get royalties from sales of used books


Yup, very likely. The only benefit might be that if there is enough interest the author might choose to bring it back into print, or these days sell it as an ebook.

Hmmm, perhaps I'll try and track him down. I am a professional writer and book designer (which is why I know way too much about copyright...). Perhaps I can get the book back into current circulation.


----------



## Donna_F

MikeOReilly said:


> Yup, very likely. The only benefit might be that if there is enough interest the author might choose to bring it back into print, or these days sell it as an ebook.
> 
> Hmmm, perhaps I'll try and track him down. I am a professional writer and book designer (which is why I know way too much about copyright...). Perhaps I can get the book back into current circulation.


Unfortunately, looks like he died last July.

KENNETH NEUMEYER Obituary: View KENNETH NEUMEYER's Obituary by TC Palm


----------



## MikeOReilly

DRFerron said:


> Unfortunately, looks like he died last July.
> 
> KENNETH NEUMEYER Obituary: View KENNETH NEUMEYER's Obituary by TC Palm


Damn ... there goes another business plan .

Unfortunately, copyright in the US expires 70 years after the author's death, so his estate likely owns the rights. Perhaps I'll still pursue it. I think there may be a growing interest in some of the ideas in his book.


----------



## barefootnavigator

Capta I hope you dont mind me moving this to a more appropriate venue.
*OK, another apples and oranges argument.
Did I actually say any West Indians live "luxuriously" on 6k a year? I just said they were not living in poverty.
I don't know too many residents, who live ashore in St. Lucia, that have sails, rigging, engines, dinghies or the myriad of other items one has on a cruising yacht to maintain and repair, do you? They certainly don't have to fork out the EC$70.00 or so a month to be there, nor do they need anchors, chain or dinghies for getting from the boat to the cheap transportation ashore.
Though chicken may be cheap in Vieux Fort, it certainly isn't quite as cheap in Rodney Bay, and spending a whole day on a bus, no matter how inexpensive, to get from Rodney Bay to Vieux Fort and back, to buy groceries, doesn't sound like fun to me (take a quick peek at a map it's a very long trip on some pretty poor roads). I also don't think the local residents are going to appreciate my tromping through their property and taking their fruit off their trees and veges from their gardens.
I do not eat like the West Indians often, as their meals are generally high caloric and fat filled. I enjoy things like mayonnaise and ice cream (EC$20.00 for a cup each for my girl and I, just yesterday).
Your idea of cruising seems more like existing, rather than living, to me, and woe be you if you actually have a serious problem with your boat you can't afford to fix. Don't forget, it was here in St. Lucia where the coffee you love to drink so much, while everyone else is filling their cruising kitty, was astronomically expensive.*

Here is a snapshot of my miserable life on my pathetically small budget. Yesterday I took the dog on a long walk down the beach, there wasn't a single foot print in the sand other than my own. Our only company was a eagle flying overhead.

I eventually made my way back to the boatyard for some prep work where I met a wide eyed girl dreaming of finding her first boat. Tonight I'm taking her for a walk down that same beach to watch the sunset and share a glass of whiskey.

I've invited her back to the boat where I will cook her a simple organic dinner and open a bottle of Stag's Leap private reserve 1997 that I have been saving for a special occasion. If the stars are out I will invite her into my warm dry and super comfy V-berth, flip open the 2.5 x 2.5 hatch and watch the stars go by. If its cloudy I will pull out a book of poetry and read to her, perhaps Pablo Neruda or maybe I will sing and play my ukulele for her.

There are people out there who couldn't cruise on less than $10,000 per month. Does that mean your $5,000 budget makes you suffer? I doubt it. What about $3000, or $2000? My budget suits me fine, if it didn't I wouldn't be out here doing what I'm doing. 
The truth is there is nothing in this world easier than making money but that's not my goal, chasing little green pieces of paper around. My goal is to have the safest prettiest most comfortable boat in the world and guess what, I do. My boat and my life suit my needs, my life is impossibly perfect. It was a struggle to get here but worth it every step of the way  SYOB my friend


----------



## Markwesti

Girl friend ? You will need a bigger boat .


----------



## barefootnavigator

You might be surprised, my last girlfriend was 6'3" and absolutely loved the boat  It has an amazing layout.


----------



## JonEisberg

barefootnavigator said:


> I've invited her back to the boat where I will cook her a simple organic dinner and open a bottle of Stag's Leap private reserve 1997 that I have been saving for a special occasion. If the stars are out I will invite her into my warm dry and super comfy V-berth, flip open the 2.5 x 2.5 hatch and watch the stars go by. If its cloudy I will pull out a book of poetry and read to her, perhaps Pablo Neruda or maybe I will sing and play my ukulele for her.


Yeah, no better way to ensure the success of a plan of seduction, than to telegraph it beforehand on the internet... 



barefootnavigator said:


> My boat and my life suit my needs, my life is impossibly perfect.


Perhaps, but you seem to be trying awfully hard to convince the rest of us of that fact...


----------



## barefootnavigator

You are very right indeed I am trying to telegraph that anyone who has the desire to live the sailing life can and by many different means. What strike me as being so funny is that so many here say you cant, its such a negative outlook. The topic is voyaging on 500 per month not I am a crotchety old man who hasn't lifted my anchor in over a year. If you don't like the topic don't read it. As for all the others who obviously do agree based off of personal experience that it can be done on a limited budget your negativity is a complete waste of yours and our time.


----------



## bljones

barefootnavigator said:


> You are very right indeed I am trying to telegraph that anyone who has the desire to live the sailing life can and by many different means. What strike me as being so funny is that so many here say you cant, its such a negative outlook. The topic is voyaging on 500 per month not I am a crotchety old man who hasn't lifted my anchor in over a year. If you don't like the topic don't read it. As for all the others who obviously do agree based off of personal experience that it can be done on a limited budget your negativity is a complete waste of yours and our time.


Real positive post, dude.


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## barefootnavigator

Thanks bj


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## bljones

Why ask the question if you don't want to hear the answers, and don't like the answers you get?


----------



## barefootnavigator

I do want to hear the answers, what is your budget, who has possession of the title of your boat, what are you sailing and where. Please do enlighten us my friend


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## Kyhillbilly

To the OP, I stayed with this thread with great interest for a while only to loose interest when the bickering seemed to out way the idea of the post. The idea could be debated as long as there is an ocean to say on. Fact is yes, a few people can make it on the budget you describe. Most could not. I found it interesting. Because like a lot of us on here do not have endless pot of money which to draw from. Saving money is always an interest to me. What I am curious about is that you say making money is to easy for you yet in the same paragraph you say it was a struggle to get where you are. I don't understand that. If making money is so easy why struggle? Not trying to start an argument just want to understand why.


----------



## barefootnavigator

I just posted this on a similar thread.

Thank you Jon and a beautiful picture. I have often been called a purist but I can assure you my more or less engine-less ways are based off of budget, not tradition. In my younger days I sailed half way around the wold in quite a bit of luxury.

I killed my bucket list at the age of 30 and was left wondering what more is there. I gave away everything I had in the world which was quite substantial and decided to try a new challenge. I wanted to see first hand how the the other half lives. It has been trying more often than not but what I have received from the hardship is a new reason for living, my youth has returned and while I can assure you most would not find my chosen lifestyle attractive I find it to be exactly what the DR ordered. Most importantly I wanted to discover the difference between my needs and wants. It had all come about during the editing of a documentary film I made on the new homeless. I couldn't understand why all the people I met had such barriers to picking them self's up putting one foot in front of the other and making a new life. So my journey while most don't understand it is to show that anything in this world can be accomplished having nothing to start with.

I'm writing a book about it all right now. It isn't a sailing book its a book on finance.


----------



## Omatako

barefootnavigator said:


> I do want to hear the answers, what is your budget, who has possession of the title of your boat, what are you sailing and where. Please do enlighten us my friend


You still have to enlighten me on all that I still have to learn (see Post 364).

I'm still waiting.


----------



## Sal Paradise

I really dislike the picture on your blog of the old sick looking dog on a short rope tied to a wood block in the boat yard. The dog looks really sad.


----------



## bljones

barefootnavigator said:


> I do want to hear the answers, what is your budget, who has possession of the title of your boat, what are you sailing and where. Please do enlighten us my friend


 Seriously, do I really need to lay out my sailing creds for my input to have any value? Well, okay, if we're gonna get all high school here...
... I sail a small paid-off POS, and been low-bucking it since before your American Dream imploded and forced you to embrace that which you used to sneer at, and been spreading the low-buck low-wake word:

How to figure out enjoying retirement is a myth | The Silo

Dock Six Chronicles: Living Aboard, Philosothinking

So, yeah, been there, done that. if you want to play the "been so broke I..." game, consider that you might not be the only varsity player.


----------



## UnionPacific

I am not going to read 42 pages of posts, but $500 is doable. 
In fact you could live on $30 a month if you shoot the dog. 
You have to reduce to the basics. rice. really, you can eat $20 in rice and feel full for a month. I have found i prefer ramen.
It costs me $0.30 a meal, and i am full. For some reason i cannot make rice at home that i enjoy. that being said we have 50# of rice on board, in case of emergency. 

Our goal once we untie and stop working is $1000 a month. we however are on a 48' yacht, with two dogs, and a cat. I also cannot go without meat. and my meat budget is about $100 a month on its own. Our goal is to save $36,000 for our trip around the world. that means no work for at least 3 years. I also do investing, and can scrape 100-500 a month out of that. so my personal goal is to spend less then $500 for each month of cruising. 

Our goal is like this:
equipping the boat for 100% anchor life.
solar and wind, water maker, generator. 
we will try to keep diesel usage under 10 gallons a month. 
we will not do any passages without favorable winds. (as many as we can help)
dog food is a big expense... $100 a month.... but they are also our security system when we are away.

you can do $500 a month, no doubt.


----------



## MikeOReilly

UnionPacific said:


> Our goal once we untie and stop working is $1000 a month.
> 
> Our goal is like this:
> equipping the boat for 100% anchor life.
> solar and wind, water maker, generator.
> we will try to keep diesel usage under 10 gallons a month.
> we will not do any passages without favorable winds. (as many as we can help)
> dog food is a big expense... $100 a month.... but they are also our security system when we are away.


Good luck with your plans UnionPacific. Our goals are similar. I believe it is possible, and some on here agree (others do not). At this point, I'm only going to know by doing it. At worst, we'll run out of money and have to home. So be it.


----------



## Brent Swain

Yes you CAN cruise on less than $500 a month, IF, you shake the habit of thinking new ,retail ,every time you need something , or learn to do your own work and stop thinking of hiring someone every time you need something done. You WONT be able to IF you do like the rich people do ,and refuse to be resourceful , imaginative and self reliant..
You WONT be able to if you treat CHEAP as a perjorative, instead of a challenge , and the result of genius and imagination. You WONT be able to if you persue childish, snobby one upmanship, over practicality in your choices of boat and gear.


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## christian.hess

man...summed up just dandy

this is in essence what should be every sailors motto

be resourceful and NEVER give up...there is always a way to fix something even if that means destroying or cannibalising something else...

the minute you leave the internet and the westmarines and port supplies and boat us and all things at your hands...

your mind starts getting creative....you THINK...you learn, YOU EXPAND...you gain KNOWLEDGE

one thing I have learned to hate is the throw it away attitude of rich and poor these days...no distinction...basically your phone dies get a new one...car, needs a tranny throw it away get a new car for 1000 more...

very few commercially made things are fixeable these days...soon boats will be this way too

treat being cheap as a decision or goal not ooh no what is someone else going to say about my patched up main sail...or anchor, or whatever....

man brent

tip of the hat to you


----------



## JonEisberg

Brent Swain said:


> You WONT be able to IF you do like the rich people do ,and refuse to be resourceful , imaginative and self reliant...


So, Rich People refuse to be "resourceful, imaginative, or self-reliant", huh?

Damn, I learn something new around here every day... 

I suppose that applies to those who BECAME rich because they possessed those qualities, as well?


----------



## newhaul

I hope more people don't become self reliant if they all do I will be out of a part time job.


----------



## Andrew65

+1 Brent. 

Up here is Norway, I need to think like this everyday with the prices for boat equiptment and/or services. It can be tough for a struggling everyday guy to outfit his home. Slowly but surely it is getting done with creativty from ones knoggen.

For example, when I got a New 14m wood mast and was refused the Crane to step it from the marina nextdoor for a BS reason, so I took three 1 meter sections of the old mast and a Pocket full of rocks to stop it from rolling when I moved it 4km Down the road egyptian style. Rolling it With log and stones. 20cm at a time for half way of the trip until I met some guys from the lumber yard who laughed their a$$`s off watching me roll by. They then forklifted the mast onto their heavy lumber trolley for me to cart the mast the remaining 2km. The event took 4 hours and a 6-pack (for the lumber guys), just to move it. Stepping it was done with the help of two wandering boyscouts looking for a way to get a badge, I kid you not.

Where there is a will, there is a way, no matter what economical Level you are at.


----------



## christian.hess

JonEisberg said:


> So, Rich People refuse to be "resourceful, imaginative, or self-reliant", huh?
> 
> Damn, I learn something new around here every day...
> 
> I suppose that applies to those who BECAME rich because they possessed those qualities, as well?


the only thing I would if changed from brents post was that...the *rich* part..I would of worded it differently so as to imply the buy it new, superflous, almost burgoisey types

one upmanship is flagrant in marinas for example...there was never a time I didnt notice one guy imitating or trying to make his dock queen better than they guy next to him or her which was part of brents message no?

I admire those who have gone from rags or semi rags to riches by imagination, creation and determination but thats a whole nother subjec

btw down here there is a saying that "its the rich that count pennies the most! hence why they are rich! "

ajajajajaajajaj


----------



## seafrontiersman

bljones said:


> Seriously, do I really need to lay out my sailing creds for my input to have any value? Well, okay, if we're gonna get all high school here...
> ... I sail a small paid-off POS, and been low-bucking it since before your American Dream imploded and forced you to embrace that which you used to sneer at, and been spreading the low-buck low-wake word:
> 
> How to figure out enjoying retirement is a myth | The Silo
> 
> Dock Six Chronicles: Living Aboard, Philosothinking
> 
> So, yeah, been there, done that. if you want to play the "been so broke I..." game, consider that you might not be the only varsity player.


So you are ANOTHER person on sailnet who has a real problem with Americans huh?


----------



## bljones

seafrontiersman said:


> So you are ANOTHER person on sailnet who has a real problem with Americans huh?


How the hell did you come to that opinion?


----------



## newhaul

bljones said:


> How the hell did you come to that opinion?


 im in america my grandfather is from Saskatoon came here at the end of WWII I'm trying to figure how he came to that conclusion as well


----------



## barefootnavigator

bljones said:


> Seriously, do I really need to lay out my sailing creds for my input to have any value? Well, okay, if we're gonna get all high school here...
> ... I sail a small paid-off POS, and been low-bucking it since before your American Dream imploded and forced you to embrace that which you used to sneer at, and been spreading the low-buck low-wake word:
> 
> How to figure out enjoying retirement is a myth | The Silo
> 
> Dock Six Chronicles: Living Aboard, Philosothinking
> 
> So, yeah, been there, done that. if you want to play the "been so broke I..." game, consider that you might not be the only varsity player.


BJ, I wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers and I sincerely apologize if I did. I was trying to gain an understanding of where you are coming from. Very impressive thoughts you have there on your website.
BTW I'm not broke, I'm even


----------



## bljones

No feathers ruffled here. Glad we cleared that up.


----------



## Minnesail

bljones said:


> No feathers ruffled here. Glad we cleared that up.


Fight! Fight! Fight!


----------



## Andrew65

Minnesail said:


> Fight! Fight! Fight!


:laugher...as l shake my head.


----------



## Crazy

I am glad to read this thread. In my case I don't wish to leave the country, just do the Great Loop. I have a 22' trailerable sailboat and no debt. At all. Though maybe I should replace my 1971 Johnson 6hp OB. Old and 2 stroke- I'll need to carry a boatload of parts, or a spare motor. Might as well be a new 6hp 4stroke instead and leave the Johnsoid behind. I'll eat out of cans and take a multivitamin. LED lights and a solar panel integrated into a bimini. Hmmmmm.......gotta get that colonoscopy done..... Is it true a doctor can only write 6 months of prescriptions at a time?


----------



## Brent Swain

bljones said:


> Seriously, do I really need to lay out my sailing creds for my input to have any value? Well, okay, if we're gonna get all high school here...
> ... I sail a small paid-off POS, and been low-bucking it since before your American Dream imploded and forced you to embrace that which you used to sneer at, and been spreading the low-buck low-wake word:
> 
> How to figure out enjoying retirement is a myth | The Silo
> 
> Dock Six Chronicles: Living Aboard, Philosothinking
> 
> So, yeah, been there, done that. if you want to play the "been so broke I..." game, consider that you might not be the only varsity player.


"American Dream? "What's another word for "Dream?" " Hallucination!"


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Crazy said:


> gotta get that colonoscopy done..... Is it true a doctor can only write 6 months of prescriptions at a time?


Less if he still has his finger up your bum!


----------



## Brent Swain

Yes you can cruise on less than $500 a month. You will make it a lot easier if you stop paying others to put your food ( along with god knows what else ) in cans for you. Third world people don't buy much in the way of canned food. I am embarrassed at how much I paid for pea soup and beans in cans, since I found out how cheap and easy it is to deal with the same stuff in bulk dried. Meat can be easily canned. It turns the toughest cuts and old laying hens into something you can cut with a fork. Before I head offshore, I stock up by going hunting, and caning enough meat for the winter.


----------



## tdw

bljones said:


> How the hell did you come to that opinion?


Do you think he may not be waving the full Stars and Stripes ?

It certainly appears Mr SFM has one monumental chip on his shoulder and if as he has done in the past he starts up his "you all just hate and or the good ol' US of A" BS rhetoric yet again then he'll be off for a vacation and a long one at that.


----------



## Crazy

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Less if he still has his finger up your bum!


OMG ur kidding right? I thought they had a little camera with a micro laser attachment! Of course that might not be amusing enough...

Actually though- I have COPD- the prescriptions question related to that.


----------



## newhaul

Crazy said:


> OMG ur kidding right? I thought they had a little camera with a micro laser attachment! Of course that might not be amusing enough...
> 
> Actually though- I have COPD- the prescriptions question related to that.


Yes he's joking they use a camera for a colonoscopy the finger is for prostrate exams no joke


----------



## duchess of montrose

I personally think its quite easy to voyage on 500 a month. you have to eat really cheap foods like rice and canned beans. you can get canned foods really cheap at the dollar store. if you want to be super cheap you can look for stores discarding expired canned food too. get a pressure cooker to save on cooking fuel. 

reserve your engine for true emergencies so you never buy fuel. you can step yur mast yourself when you need to. keep on top of maintenance so that you don't need to replace expensive parts. you still have emergencies but you need to be able to save some money each month for that. 

I would say if you did all that you might not live lavishly or even comfortably but id rather be really pushing the limit and cruising than sitting at home living ok.


----------



## Crazy

Yes I plan to step my mast myself. But use of the motor is mandatory for much of the Loop due to lack of wind, canals, etc. One of the good things about going so small enginewise is .5 gph fuel use. I've seen a thread by a past looper who had a 30' sailboat with a 9.9hp four stroke and he averaged .4 gph over the entire 5600 miles!

I do have mechanical aptitude. I once built a motorcycle like the Teutels do on American Chopper TV show. Except I rebuilt the motor to 'blueprint' state. They just buy it new and stick it in there. So I expect I could tear the OB down to nuts and bolts and rebuild it good as new if I needed to. That small of a boat there is little of complication to go wrong. Just don't be run down by a barge or towboat!


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## barefootnavigator

I guess we eat our fair share of beans and rice but as far as what we pay for I think Tortillas are high on the list both for soups and for fish and crab tacos which are delicious free and super easy to cook and clean. They are dirt cheap last forever and there are so many ways to use them. We average two gallons of water a day somehow so I start every meal keeping min mind that I have dishes to wash afterwords.


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## Lou452

Just letting you know I am still reading but I do not have much to add at this point. 
I think I am look at more than $500 available. It is a nice target But I am not sure I can hit that mark. We will just have to see.
The loop seems like an ok starting point. Because I am near the loop. I will be able to do a few mini starts. My starting time is 12 years away. I will do some mini cruising or camping along my way. Yes I know I am going to hear all this do it now. I just came to the idea of setting a time this year. It could happen sooner but not later. I am happy earning enough saving and paying off stuff. I will be debt free long before 12 years maybe 5 years to debt free The youngest I can pull a full pension. 62 years. Young enough to do some small adventures.
Just a few thoughts, Lou


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## mrhoneydew

I just spent most of last evening and much of today (while I should have been working)  reading this thread from the beginning. Lots of great info here! Thank you, Barefoot, for starting it! I am currently in Seattle and just purchased my first boat, a '69 Columbia 28, last September. For about 8 years I have had the bug to get a boat and venture out across oceans. This boat was originally going to be a "starter boat" for bouncing around Puget Sound and up to Desolation and back. Then about 3 weeks ago I started thinking "why not THIS boat? why not NOW?" I had thought I would only want to go blue on a 34-40' boat, but it struck me that I really don't need that and what I really need is to use what I have and go sooner rather than later. So the boat needs quite a bit of work and I have a few debts to pay off... but I am setting a goal to head for Mexico by September 10th... exactly one year from purchase. Depending on how my dog can sail. If I don't make it, I'll hold off until Spring or whatever. Either way, I am getting out of Seattle by then. It's ridiculous... I pay $325/mo for a slip and can't even technically live on my boat because I don't have the ever-coveted liveaboard status. At any rate, what you are doing and all of the positive ideas on this thread are an inspiration. In some ways you and I are parallel in that we have old boats, are perfectionist in refit, are about the same age, divorced, have old dogs we are not willing to leave without... so given we are in geographic proximity I intend to buy you a beer (or two) for your inspiration and your writing (I went to your blog as well). I am planning to head up to Port Townsend for a haulout to do some major work for a week or so at the end of March. Some time thereafter I may jump up to the San Juans. In any case, at some point I hope we can cross paths within the next few months. 

As for the topic of the thread, I think one of my biggest cost concerns is probably clearing in and out of various countries. I just read a bunch on another thread about the costs associated with going through the Panama Canal... not just stated fees, but the hidden costs. Good gravy! $1875 before you even make 1 knot in the direction of the canal entrance! Certainly going slowly and getting the most out of every country so you are not paying customs fees all the time is one way to stretch the budget, but I am interested to hear what others who have cruised in various places have experienced. Where are some of the less expensive places to get in and out of customs-wise?


----------



## barefootnavigator

Beer sounds great, I have to head to PT at some point to pick up an oven and my new dingy. Who knows I might have some excellent wine on the boat if the wine gods are good to me. Lots of great people in PT I was going to winter there but when I found a boat yard offering $44 per month for my winter haul out I couldn't turn it down.


----------



## Crazy

Wow I had no idea! I figure making a boat blue water capable has got to be expensive. I never even thought about customs, etc! Other than Canada. I'm glad I don't have the urge to do such things. By comparison the Loop is truly economical.


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## barefootnavigator

Done the PC thing and once was enough, Next time I want to go that route it will be around the horn.


----------



## mrhoneydew

barefootnavigator said:


> Done the PC thing and once was enough, Next time I want to go that route it will be around the horn.


I had thought about that and exploring Chile sounds amazing, but I'm not so sure I am a huge fan of 50' seas and icebergs. Plus I am looking for white sand, palm trees, and girls in bikinis.  But I won't rule out the horn.

By the way... while I am thinking about it... people look at the question of "how is that possible?" from various perspectives. Either from a point of consternation or determination. I, for one, value determination and resourcefulness. I start looking for answers. Seek and you will find, as they say. If you are hung up on looking for ways something is not possible... you find ways something is not possible... the opposite is also true. Interjecting "practical concerns" has its value only in so much as it is to seek solutions to those concerns. Saying voyaging on $500 per month is not possible, flat out has no value here. I think there have been several who have commented that have had experience doing it. I'll look to THEM for answers. And nobody said starting from absolute zero without a boat or any prospects for income and getting out there for $500 per month was the idea. Certainly starting out with a boat in the first place is a good way to begin. /rant


----------



## barefootnavigator

Budgets always interest me, there are those that I meet that cant seem to stretch 3k for a month while others on much larger boats lavish on a quarter of that. I don't intend to live on this budget forever. I had lessons to learn and the whole minimalist budget was part of it. At some point in the near future I fully expect the financial markets to implode. When this happens I will go back to work for three years hire Cape George to build me a spanking new Bristol Channel Cutter and start the next adventure. I will still live frugally but by that point budgets will be a mute point. I have been training myself well and no longer have to try and be frugal its now simply the way I live.


----------



## mrhoneydew

barefootnavigator said:


> Lots of great people in PT I was going to winter there but when I found a boat yard offering $44 per month for my winter haul out I couldn't turn it down.


A good friend and fellow sailor's parents have a place at Port Hadlock with a ball I can tie up to over night. He is also really good friends with the resident Master Rigger in town... PT is a really great option for many reasons. I really like the place and I am thinking I may base out of there for a while once I leave Seattle. But $44 is unheard of! That's awesome!


----------



## barefootnavigator

It was till they raised it to $77 I just got the bill and laughed. They almost doubled the price and its still almost free.


----------



## mrhoneydew

barefootnavigator said:


> I will still live frugally but by that point budgets will be a mute point. I have been training myself well and no longer have to try and be frugal its now simply the way I live.


Ok. After this I am done quoting and getting back to work. Seriously.  But there is a lesson there for all of us, I think. If only this massively over-consumer society we live in could emulate that the world would be in a much better, happier, healthier state. Starting with me. I still have some lessons to learn and habits to form, but I'll get there.


----------



## barefootnavigator

I was the worst of the worst, even my dog had a brand new Subaru in the driveway...I'm not joking I was a complete moron, maybe in many ways still am but Rome wasn't built in a day.


----------



## aeventyr60

most folks here have no idea what it costs to live/sail in the third world, and base cost/lifestyle on a land based lifestyle in the first world with all the costs it entails. You guys need to get out a little more...


----------



## christian.hess

jeje well said aeventry


----------



## manatee

barefootnavigator said:


> Done the PC thing and once was enough, Next time I want to go that route it will be around the horn.


Have you considered using the Strait of Magellan, a la Slocum? Seems it would put less strain on both you and the boat.


----------



## barefootnavigator

I never plan ahead when it comes to sailing routes. I was just making a point that there are other sailing routes. If you haven't had the opportunity to go through the canal I would highly suggest that you do, its well worth the money. I swear I have an email somewhere where a friend of mine went through for under a grand last year, I will try and find it. BTW you don't have to hire an agent.


----------



## mrhoneydew

I like the idea of being open as far as sailing routes... though as I casually lay here typing on my laptop all warm and dry it is much much easier to say that if I were to go the south route around S. America I would _have_ to go around the Horn rather than the Strait of Magellan. Especially if I had made the trip all that way South. But, as I said, it's a much easier decision being level, dry, warm, and motionless. 

I will likely give the Canal a go once I make it that far. Just as there can be unforeseen expenses, there can be unforeseen acts of generosity. I try not to be too taken by the horror stories of corrupt officials or having to pay the "****** tax" every step of the way, though it can be much easier to dwell on the many examples that people post/write of those experiences. People tend to post more about those things than about the times people facilitated an endeavor.


----------



## mrhoneydew

By the way, MikeO had posted a ways back about "Sailing the Farm," by Kenneth Neumeyer. I just downloaded it on .pdf here:

http://cruisenews.net/sailfarm.pdf

I just started reading it and it is amazing what Neumeyer was talking about concerning self-sufficiency over 30 years ago and the technologies he was talking about and using. Looks to be a great read. Thanks MikeO!


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

JonEisberg said:


> ...
> 
> Horizontal is the only way to go, in my opinion...


Care to elaborate?

I read some arguments in favor of vertical, mainly larger angle of rode on the windlass, and better protection (under deck) for the motor.

Are these arguments wrong?

What are the arguments for horizontal? Other than there being many more models of the latter, of course.


----------



## Omatako

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Care to elaborate?
> 
> I read some arguments in favor of vertical, mainly larger angle of rode on the windlass, and better protection (under deck) for the motor.
> 
> Are these arguments wrong?
> 
> What are the arguments for horizontal? Other than there being many more models of the latter, of course.


I have a horizontal and it would take an awful lot for me to change it simply because it is really powerful and super-reliable, has an easy manual back-up and powers up as well as down and also free-spools with ease (Lofrans Tigres).

But I am planning on installing another on the stern and here it will be a vertical.

The primary advantage that I can see for a vertical is that it can haul in a line from any angle. So one can use it to haul the boat sideways if stuck in mud and so on. The horizontal (certainly on my boat) pulls only from the front and even then with very little variation on angle. I believe the disadvantage is they don't come in the very brutal power ranges.

The one I intend to install on the stern is to recover drogues, simplify Mediterranean mooring and recover the odd kedge anchor when needed. The ability to pull from all angles will be a significant advantage here and the power is not really an issue.


----------



## JonEisberg

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Care to elaborate?
> 
> I read some arguments in favor of vertical, mainly larger angle of rode on the windlass, and better protection (under deck) for the motor.
> 
> Are these arguments wrong?
> 
> What are the arguments for horizontal? Other than there being many more models of the latter, of course.


The primary advantage, to me, is if you have to resort to using the manual back up. You can operate the handle from a standing, or at least a much more advantageous position in terms of leverage... grinding up a vertical windlass using a conventional winch handle in a circular motion, while most likely on your knees, will get old VERY quickly... There's good ergonomic reason why most manual windlasses have always been horizontal...










Similarly, tailing rope or mixed rode from a horizontal rope drum is far more comfortable than doing so using a vertical drum at your feet...

There was some discussion re the Beneteau Sense 50 that that went on the rocks in Ft Pierce that the anchor couldn't be lowered after everything on the boat locked up... Now, I find that a bit hard to imagine, but the sort of windlass on that boat still makes me nervous, if one needs to let the chain fly in an emergency, and I really don't like this sort of arrangement at all. Imagine how difficult it might be to extricate the chain manually in an emergency...










On my horizontal windlass in a similar situation, all I'd have to do is release the clutch, and lift the chain free of the gypsy, and feed it out from the chain pipe... Another downside of many vertical arrangements, it can be really difficult to seal the chain pipe completely. With my horizontal gypsy feeding into a vertical chain pipe, I can disconnect the chain from the anchor, and cap the pipe so it is completely watertight... Few things can be more annoying than the inability to make a hawse pipe watertight, it's amazing how much water some anchor lockers can ship with water coming over the deck...

Btw, no need for a horizontal windlass motor to be above deck, some models such as my Lofrans Kobra, have the motor below deck...










Finally, no matter what sort of windlass you have, one of the biggest favors one can do for yourself is to make a good cover for a foredeck mounted windlass to protect it from the elements... These things live in an incredibly harsh environment, it amazes me how many sailors out there don't bother to take such a simple precaution, to extend the life of such an expensive and important piece of gear...


----------



## christian.hess

jon whats that big anchor you have? the first one?


----------



## JonEisberg

christian.hess said:


> jon whats that big anchor you have? the first one?


That's my Big Bertha, it's a Northill, long out of production...

http://anchors.synthasite.com/northill-anchor.php


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch

OK, so basically you see 3 advantages (not unrelated): (1) When in manual backup mode, it is easier to use (lever vs winch-handle). (2) Easier to tail rope. (3) Easier to take chain off the gypsy if necessary. 

All three make sense. I suppose these should be weighed against the better contact between chain and gypsy for a vertical. 

And Omatako makes a good argument for verticals (usability in all direction) which is applicable for a windlass on the stern. But he clearly is also very happy with his horizontal one on the bow. 

Thank you for the education, I always like to learn new things.


----------



## Brent Swain

Sheet winches work for verticals in the stern.
Friends have avoided the main drag and its expenses, by going thru the Australs, then on to Uvea. No one asked for a bond in those places; yet. Tonga was cheap the last time I was there. Apia was cheap, but no more. They insist you tie up in their expensive marina. Pago Pago is super expensive for the harbour fees, even for USanians.
I hear new Caledonia is cheap for harbour fees, but super expensive for groceries etc. Stock up in Niue, Tonga and Fiji before going to any French islands. Diving gear is more available and cheaper in French islands.


----------



## Bene505

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> OK, so basically you see 3 advantages (not unrelated): (1) When in manual backup mode, it is easier to use (lever vs winch-handle). (2) Easier to tail rope. (3) Easier to take chain off the gypsy if necessary.
> 
> All three make sense. I suppose these should be weighed against the better contact between chain and gypsy for a vertical.
> 
> And Omatako makes a good argument for verticals (usability in all direction) which is applicable for a windlass on the stern. But he clearly is also very happy with his horizontal one on the bow.
> 
> Thank you for the education, I always like to learn new things.


A horizontal windlass can have "usability in all directions" (good phrase) with the help of a snatch block off the anchor roller, or even a loop of large diameter rope used as a snatch block.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## pdjb

hey there sailor,,,I am in everett.wa. living on Irwin 28ft, I just retired and am drawing ss on 900.00 a month, but have a little in the bank also....It can be done..but the way the president in talking it is going to get worst .my plan is to sail down to Mexico and get away from all this bull if you know what I mean...just want to live a little and see the world before I die....u go and enjoy life


----------



## Bene505

pdjb said:


> hey there sailor,,,I am in everett.wa. living on Irwin 28ft, I just retired and am drawing ss on 900.00 a month, but have a little in the bank also....It can be done..but the way the president in talking it is going to get worst .my plan is to sail down to Mexico and get away from all this bull if you know what I mean...just want to live a little and see the world before I die....u go and enjoy life


From another thread yours is a 1964, right? I have [edit: I had] a '64 Victory 21. They really built them solid back then. I think they didn't know how strong fiberglass was going to be, so they made them extra thick!

Regards,
Brad


----------



## christian.hess

Bene505 said:


> From another thread yours is a 1964, right? I have a '64 Victory 21. They really built them solid back then. I think they didn't know how strong fiberglass was going to be, so they made them extra thick!
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


mostly resin but still! much prefer that then thin cored whatchamacallit! jaja

my dad who was handicapped rigged an old plastic classic the challenger 24 by columbia, it was so thick and well built I had dreams to sail that boat first as a kid kind of like robin graham down south to el salvador...

but I got a bigger old woodie instead that served me just as well

go small youll enjoy the surroundings much better, plus maintenenance is minimal and cheap


----------



## mad_machine

Bene505 said:


> From another thread yours is a 1964, right? I have [edit: I had] a '64 Victory 21. They really built them solid back then. I think they didn't know how strong fiberglass was going to be, so they made them extra thick!
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


it was not so much they did not know how strong 'glass was.. it was that boaters didn't trust anything thinner than the wooden boats they were used to.

my 63 Sea Sprite has extremely thick glass.. in many ways, just as thick as if she had been planked in wood


----------



## Brent Swain

I just read in a sporting magazine that the Kiwis have realized that the human population there is simply not large enough to deal with such tasty invasive species as deer, elk and wild boars. So they have eliminated all license fees for hunting. Its open season all year round ,no bag limit. They are hoping foreign visitors will hunt there, to reduce the overpopulation of such tasty morsels . They say 50% of the country is crown land, open for hunting. While they still have that sublime stupidity called gun control ,and crossbows are illegal there, any yachtie arriving with a long bow or compound bow, and a canner, can sail away form there with his caning jars full of venison and pork , several years supply if he comes prepared. I have been told their caning jars and their lids are slightly different from what we use , but if you are very careful ,you can get the lids to work on our jars. Much wiser would be to bring along a huge supply of our lids, altho friends have reused them many times ,by boiling them before re-use.
Apple juice can reduce gaminess.

You should do your archery practice and canning practice before you leave.


----------



## christian.hess

dont tell anyone(jeje) but I was with some spaniards that did some fine wild pig hunting in polynesia...

wont say where or when but they said it was FUN...they did it with locals who were more than happy to share their traditions...

I was vegetarian at the time!

oh the humanity! I missed out for sure......................................................


----------



## newhaul

Brent Swain said:


> I just read in a sporting magazine that the Kiwis have realized that the human population there is simply not large enough to deal with such tasty invasive species as deer, elk and wild boars. So they have eliminated all license fees for hunting. Its open season all year round ,no bag limit. They are hoping foreign visitors will hunt there, to reduce the overpopulation of such tasty morsels . They say 50% of the country is crown land, open for hunting. While they still have that sublime stupidity called gun control ,and crossbows are illegal there, any yachtie arriving with a long bow or compound bow, and a canner, can sail away form there with his caning jars full of venison and pork , several years supply if he comes prepared. I have been told their caning jars and their lids are slightly different from what we use , but if you are very careful ,you can get the lids to work on our jars. Much wiser would be to bring along a huge supply of our lids, altho friends have reused them many times ,by boiling them before re-use.
> Apple juice can reduce gaminess.
> 
> You should do your archery practice and canning practice before you leave.


That sounds like fun I'm a lifetime bow hunter and been canning meats and fish all my life 
Just need a bigger cargo sailing vessel 5 bucks a jar :laugher


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

newhaul said:


> That sounds like fun I'm a lifetime bow hunter and been canning meats and fish all my life
> Just need a bigger cargo sailing vessel 5 bucks a jar :laugher


There would be a market with cruisers at $5 jar. But i bet the price would be far higher.

Its very difficult to get good preserved meat products. None in the supermarket, thats for sure.


----------



## duchess of montrose

hey if u put marine in the name you could probably make that 5 dollar meat 150 bucks and get away with it. just like west marine.


----------



## manatee

MarkofSeaLife said:


> There would be a market with cruisers at $5 jar. But i bet the price would be far higher.
> 
> Its very difficult to get good preserved meat products. None in the supermarket, thats for sure.


 *But--but--but---*


----------



## Brent Swain

manatee said:


> *But--but--but---*


I wouldn't feed that to a dog It has caused a lot of diabetes and heart disease.


----------



## Minnesail

manatee said:


> *But--but--but---*


A fine Minnesota product! In fact every July there's a festival to celebrate the stuff: Spam Jam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I eat Spam once a year. At the State Fair I'll buy a cup of deep fried Spam cubes. Yes, it's disgusting.


----------



## Unkle Toad

Minnesail said:


> A fine Minnesota product! In fact every July there's a festival to celebrate the stuff: Spam Jam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I eat Spam once a year. At the State Fair I'll buy a cup of deep fried Spam cubes. Yes, it's disgusting.


It may be disgusting but it is oh so satisifying I agree with that once a year thing that sounds about right.


----------



## Brent Swain

Minnesail said:


> A fine Minnesota product! In fact every July there's a festival to celebrate the stuff: Spam Jam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I eat Spam once a year. At the State Fair I'll buy a cup of deep fried Spam cubes. Yes, it's disgusting.


I was never able to gag it down.


----------



## newhaul

manatee said:


> *But--but--but---*


I actually like it sliced thin and fried with eggs I also was a survival instructor many years ago in boy scouts my survival merit badge dinner was oysters Rockefeller and fresh current Berry's for desert cooked over an open fire on hood canal


----------



## Lou452

Hey, still reading nice to hear about he hunting opportunity. My thoughts: When you show up buy a gun of your choice. Sell it when you leave. that way you will not have to deal with the politics. 
Good day, Lou


----------



## travlin-easy

Anyone that spent any time at all in the Armed Forces of the U.S. learned to love Spam. In the Navy, they had ways of cooking Spam that you actually looked forward to chowing down on. Yeah, I know, you folks that are gourmet sailing chefs might turn your noses up at this stuff, but for many of us it was a staple of life during a time when life was on the line. 




Gary


----------



## Lou452

Reading a book as I always am a Hall Roth book. In this book it states Simon Brown and Beverly Pilgim Sailed from England to the Caribbean then Bermuda, USA., Spain, They spent $14678.00 This is more than twice as much as $500 a month. The book said they were frugal cruisers. They were using a 36' foot wooden gaff rigged cutter. This book is at least ten years old. 
The book also took a thin look at morality. Earning you keep versus scamming or as he stated being a hobo. 
Good Day, Lou


----------



## newhaul

travlineasy said:


> Anyone that spent any time at all in the Armed Forces of the U.S. learned to love Spam. In the Navy, they had ways of cooking Spam that you actually looked forward to chowing down on. Yeah, I know, you folks that are gourmet sailing chefs might turn your noses up at this stuff, but for many of us it was a staple of life during a time when life was on the line.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gary


That and Vienna sausages from Lebanon to desert storm WWII was my dadin b17's and I had an uncle and a cousin at Omaha beach all 3 lived to tell the stories great link


----------



## newhaul

Lou452 said:


> Reading a book as I always am a Hall Roth book. In this book it states Simon Brown and Beverly Pilgim Sailed from England to the Caribbean then Bermuda, USA., Spain, They spent $14678.00 This is more than twice as much as $500 a month. The book said they were frugal cruisers. They were using a 36' foot wooden gaff rigged cutter. This book is at least ten years old.
> The book also took a thin look at morality. Earning you keep versus scamming or as he stated being a hobo.
> Good Day, Lou


When your military disability is just over 500 a month you learn to make it last 
I may sometimes disagree with people but I will defend to the death their right to voice their opinions. 
Ht1 USN


----------



## duchess of montrose

I've never ate spam but i love canned chicken. I can't explain why i just love the stuff. although beans are still a cheaper source of protein.


----------



## christian.hess

newhaul said:


> When your military disability is just over 500 a month you learn to make it last
> I may sometimes disagree with people but I will defend to the death their right to voice their opinions.
> Ht1 USN


you just made me cry bud...amen

*THIS* is the truest statement there is...too many people think only their damn opinion counts...and we are all guilty of it to some extent

forums are a perfect example of this

peace


----------



## christian.hess

duchess of montrose said:


> I've never ate spam but i love canned chicken. I can't explain why i just love the stuff. although beans are still a cheaper source of protein.


canned chicken rocks...we make chicken egg salad sandwiches all the time down here

or salads...

not on a boat btw! ajajajajaja


----------



## Minnesail

duchess of montrose said:


> I've never ate spam but i love canned chicken. I can't explain why i just love the stuff. although beans are still a cheaper source of protein.


Right? I can't believe I was nearly 40 years old before I discovered the magic of canned chicken.


----------



## tdw

MarkofSeaLife said:


> There would be a market with cruisers at $5 jar. But i bet the price would be far higher.
> 
> Its very difficult to get good preserved meat products. None in the supermarket, thats for sure.


I wonder why it is that so many edibles are complete and utter rubbish once canned ? It doesn't seem to be beyond possible surely to manage to can at least half way edible meats and vegetables.

Do no talk to me of Spam ... that is merely predigested vomit, utterly without redeeming feature and contrary to a previous posters thoughts tinned chicken is pretty uninteresting in a watery wishy washy kind of way. We have had some quite nice French Cassoulet and even some half way decent Duck Confit in tins but mama they were not cheap eats.

Hell, even most vegetables are bordeline revolting by the time they come out of tin. We do try and keep a few canned things on board but to be honest they tend to go rusty and get thrown out well before we ever get quote that hungry.

oh yes and PS .... $500.00 a month ? Couldn't do it and keep a smile on my face. Maybe thirty years back but most certainly not now. (edit ... no I could do it, of course I could but to be honest I wouldn't choose to do so.)


----------



## newhaul

tdw said:


> I wonder why it is that so many edibles are complete and utter rubbish once canned ? It doesn't seem to be beyond possible surely to manage to can at least half way edible meats and vegetables.
> 
> Do no talk to me of Spam ... that is merely predigested vomit, utterly without redeeming feature and contrary to a previous posters thoughts tinned chicken is pretty uninteresting in a watery wishy washy kind of way. We have had some quite nice French Cassoulet and even some half way decent Duck Confit in tins but mama they were not cheap eats.
> 
> Hell, even most vegetables are bordeline revolting by the time they come out of tin. We do try and keep a few canned things on board but to be honest they tend to go rusty and get thrown out well before we ever get quote that hungry.
> 
> oh yes and PS .... $500.00 a month ? Couldn't do it and keep a smile on my face. Maybe thirty years back but most certainly not now. (edit ... no I could do it, of course I could but to be honest I wouldn't choose to do so.)


All depends on how its prepared prior to canning also home canning is done in jars not time so there's no metal contamination taste. As far as spam I'm sure there are still lots of Brits who can remember being glad to have it after all it was developed as a way to get meat to a besieged england in the early days of the war


----------



## manatee

travlineasy said:


> Anyone that spent any time at all in the Armed Forces of the U.S. learned to love Spam. In the Navy, they had ways of cooking Spam that you actually looked forward to chowing down on. Yeah, I know, you folks that are gourmet sailing chefs might turn your noses up at this stuff, but for many of us it was a staple of life during a time when life was on the line.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gary


Amen, shipmate!

Come down to the mess-deck after a 12-hour shift on the flight deck of a carrier in the North Atlantic in winter -- I promise you'll go back for seconds on the Spam, gravy & spuds.


----------



## xort

I wasnt in the military, I served in the Air Force. We didnt have spam served to us. It just isnt right to serve spam on fine china with sterling silver flatware and crystal stemware.


----------



## Lou452

Lets discuss some ethics. From what I have seen posted on this thread sailors seem to have a moral fiber. I think if you barter or trade with ethics you are fair. $500 or $ 500,000 will not make the deal or moral line straight the person makes the deal. In the USA. I think it would be hard to go it on $500 per month. 
Now I did see a thread with a boat called Pestilence ? They did not seem to mind taking parts from other boats ? Looked like a bad "stick it to the man" "When I come to town you should feed me". It was pointed out that the dude on the boat had means They would have made you think I wish I had a can of spray paint and some toilet paper to do the town. Some of the folks I have seen hitting a church food drive on the way to the fishing hole with a case of beer. I stopped for a hungry will work for food dude on my interstate exit. I had the man a job and some food on a near by farm. After talking to him he told me get the **** away He wanted to work the traffic for a little coin. He did not want a job or food just money. I got an education an he did a disservice to the truly needy. 
Thoughts, Lou


----------



## joethecobbler

ever try Scrapple? nothing like a scrapple/cheese on toast. fried of course.


----------



## joethecobbler

per the panhandlers and morality points.
judge not, walk a mile,glass he. etc. er.


----------



## Don L

travlineasy said:


> Anyone that spent any time at all in the Armed Forces of the U.S. learned to love Spam. In the Navy, they had ways of cooking Spam that you actually looked forward to chowing down on.


In my 11 years in the Navy I don't recall them ever serving Spam


----------



## downeast450

A great snack or meal.

B & M canned brown bread with raisins. 1/2 inch slices. Fried crisp. Add a little honey or real maple syrup and just enough Jamesons, rum or Scotch for flavor! Wow! High energy food that isn't pemmican! No refrigeration and inexpensive. Until you sit down and finish the bottle of Jamesons. Ha!

Down


----------



## seafrontiersman

Don0190 said:


> In my 11 years in the Navy I don't recall them ever serving Spam


They certainly served in on board of Destroyers and Frigates back during the 80s and early 90s, particularly if you were operating in a remote area such as "gonzo station" in the IO,

It is a little known fact that the word SPAM is actually derived from an ancient Mesopotamian word which means "food of the freakin' GODS"!


----------



## copacabana

I'm starting to see long-life UHT meals sealed in envelopes at the supermarkets here. I haven't tried them yet as I always cook from scratch, but they look good (beef stroganoff, stews and the like). These must be better than canned stuff. As an alternative to canned there is always smoked or cured. A whole smoked chicken is nice for making salads.


----------



## outbound

For the ditch bag have stuff bought in a mountain climbing store. Yuppie meals ready to eat. It was on sale so bought a bunch. No expiration date.
Find peanut butter a good store to keep under the floorboards. Sometimes hard to find out of the states. Also keep a bunch of dried fruits ( apricots, dates, prunes, raisins).That way as long as you have flour and water and yeast you can always make some kind of meal.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Does anyone go with dried food? I'm drying a bunch (~6 months worth) to have on hand. We're also planning to dehydrate along the way so we can purchase in bulk when things are in season and cheaper. 

Anyone try this?


----------



## manatee

Don0190 said:


> In my 11 years in the Navy I don't recall them ever serving Spam


 One of the things I was looking forward to when I joined the Navy was a steady supply of S.O.S. ("chipped beef on toast" to the polite folk amongst us). Dad was on a subchaser in WWII, where they had it regularly, and we had it often when I was growing up. I think they served it to us *once* in four years. Guess what I asked Mom to fix for my celebratory discharge dinner. 

It's kinda gloomy & rainy out today, I think I'll have some S.O.S. tonight. Bon appetite, y'all.


----------



## joethecobbler

SOS Mmmmmm. even for a Yankee food.


----------



## Don L

I can remember SOS a couple of times, but was really more of a gravy thing to go onto something else.

Sounds like some people consider all these dried and canned meats food. I consider them more as something to survive on during a disaster event. I saw a TV commercial this morning for dried rations for the end of the world. But I guess that assumes you make it though the initial event.


----------



## seafrontiersman

copacabana said:


> I'm starting to see long-life UHT meals sealed in envelopes at the supermarkets here. I haven't tried them yet as I always cook from scratch, but they look good (beef stroganoff, stews and the like). These must be better than canned stuff. As an alternative to canned there is always smoked or cured. A whole smoked chicken is nice for making salads.


I've had UHT milk quite a lot and it ain't bad, I suspect you are right about the meals. Let us know how they are if you try one!


----------



## downeast450

MikeOReilly said:


> Does anyone go with dried food? I'm drying a bunch (~6 months worth) to have on hand. We're also planning to dehydrate along the way so we can purchase in bulk when things are in season and cheaper.
> 
> Anyone try this?


Mike, Have you tried drying spaghetti sauce? It turns out like fruit leather. Just add water! We carry it.


----------



## MikeOReilly

downeast450 said:


> Mike, Have you tried drying spaghetti sauce? It turns out like fruit leather. Just add water! We carry it.


You bet! We dry all manner of sauces, fruit purees, even thick soups/stews like pea, mulligatawny, or chilli. Just about any thick sauce can be dried. As you say, they reconstitute wonderfully, and are great to have.

Contrary to some people's perceptions, dried food is nothing like survival rations, at least not if it's done properly. I've never had commercial dried or free-dried stuff that was very good, but if you do it yourself dried food can be almost as good as fresh food. We've been drying for many years (mostly for our extended wilderness canoe/kayak tripping), and have now taken to bringing dried food on our sailboat journeys.

Most veggies and fruits dry very well, and if sealed and stored properly can easily last for years with little degradation, and no need for refrigeration! Even meats can last for a year or more. The key is to get the fat out. It is fat that goes rancid, so using lean cuts is key.


----------



## downeast450

MikeOReilly said:


> You bet! We dry all manner of sauces, fruit purees, even thick soups/stews like pea, mulligatawny, or chilli. Just about any thick sauce can be dried. As you say, they reconstitute wonderfully, and are great to have. We've been drying for many years (mostly for our extended wilderness canoe/kayak tripping), and have now taken to bringing dried food on our sailboat journeys.
> 
> .


Same, same.

Down


----------



## copacabana

What do you use to dry your food? How do you package it after drying? I actually like dried vegetables much more than canned. They're great for soups and stews, even in the wok after reconstituted. It's a shame they're so hard to find.


----------



## manatee

copacabana said:


> What do you use to dry your food? How do you package it after drying? I actually like dried vegetables much more than canned. They're great for soups and stews, even in the wok after reconstituted. It's a shame they're so hard to find.


 These folks have all kinds of good stuff for camping & boating:

You can buy Air-Dried Veggies, and other stuff, or make your own:

*Click the pic:*
 



${std-disclaimer}


----------



## MikeOReilly

copacabana said:


> What do you use to dry your food? How do you package it after drying? I actually like dried vegetables much more than canned. They're great for soups and stews, even in the wok after reconstituted. It's a shame they're so hard to find.


Ours is home made, very similar to the ones on this site. It's basically a plywood box with 12 trays (2' x 2'). I vacuum seal the dried food, and just bought a new Foodsaver sealer. I'm also looking at getting something like these food vaults for the boat.

We use our dried food pretty much the same as we use fresh. For wilderness trips we usually assemble meals into sealed packages, but on our boat we just carry the food in bulk, and open the sealed bags as needed. Some dried foods do better with a pre-soak, but most veggies and meats can be added as you cook. You just have to pay attention to the amount of liquid being used -- it will take more if you're reconstituting while cooking.

As I say, I've never liked the commercial dried food packs. Sometimes bulk food stores sell OK stuff, but it's very easy to do it yourself. You don't even need a dedicated dryer. You can do it in an oven. Put it on the lowest heat and keep the door cracked open a few centimetres. The key is keep warm dry air flowing, but keep the temp low so you don't cook the food.


----------



## outbound

This drying sounds real interesting. We've been doing dinners in the crockpot then freezing them in square bricks to line the bottom of the freezer on the boat. Easy meal underway but down to what comes out of a can if the freezer ever breaks. ?any favorites? is that the book to buy to get started.


----------



## manatee

MikeOReilly said:


> Ours is home made, very similar to the ones on this site. It's basically a plywood box with 12 trays (2' x 2'). I vacuum seal the dried food, and just bought a new Foodsaver sealer. I'm also looking at getting something like these food vaults for the boat.
> 
> We use our dried food pretty much the same as we use fresh. For wilderness trips we usually assemble meals into sealed packages, but on our boat we just carry the food in bulk, and open the sealed bags as needed. Some dried foods do better with a pre-soak, but most veggies and meats can be added as you cook. You just have to pay attention to the amount of liquid being used -- it will take more if you're reconstituting while cooking.
> 
> As I say, I've never liked the commercial dried food packs. Sometimes bulk food stores sell OK stuff, but it's very easy to do it yourself. You don't even need a dedicated dryer. You can do it in an oven. Put it on the lowest heat and keep the door cracked open a few centimetres. The key is keep warm dry air flowing, but keep the temp low so you don't cook the food.


That looks like a good winter project -- preserve your food & warm the house at the same time. If you can use smaller buckets,  they're here.


----------



## MikeOReilly

outbound said:


> This drying sounds real interesting. We've been doing dinners in the crockpot then freezing them in square bricks to line the bottom of the freezer on the boat. Easy meal underway but down to what comes out of a can if the freezer ever breaks. ?any favorites? is that the book to buy to get started.


Here's one that helped get us going: The Hungry Hiker's Book of Good Cooking. I just looked it up. Great book which covers how to build your own dryer, how to dry, and then has tons of good receipts.


----------



## MikeOReilly

manatee said:


> That looks like a good winter project -- preserve your food & warm the house at the same time. If you can use smaller buckets,  they're here.


That's exactly what I'm doing. 

We're going to leave for our extended cruise this summer, but during the long, cold winter I've been drying food. My goal is to have at least 6 months dried and stored on our boat. I figure this will be our food buffer as we learn how to voyage on $500/month.


----------



## tdw

newhaul said:


> All depends on how its prepared prior to canning also home canning is done in jars not time so there's no metal contamination taste. As far as spam I'm sure there are still lots of Brits who can remember being glad to have it after all it was developed as a way to get meat to a besieged england in the early days of the war


My problem with tinned meats and vegetables is that invariably they have been way overcooked. Quite possibly home canning/bottling would solve that problem but to be honest I cannot see me going down that path unless we were no longer boating and were living out in the country.

That the Brits could stomach the stuff and were grateful for it means sweet f all to me. If indeed I was starving then I'd more than likely eat it as well but that does not mean I am ever going to like it. I was forced to eat the much when I was a kid. I didn't like it then, I don't like it now and nothing is going to change that.

Mike O'R mentions that in drying meat you need to get the fat out. Therein of course lies the problem. Its the fat that gives meat the flavour. Remove the fat and you remove the taste. I appreciate however tat if the meat is to be used in stews or casseroles than it is likely to be the herbs used that will create the flavour not the meat as such.

One questions aimed at Mike ..... don't know your planned cruising grounds but why do you see the need to try and stock your boat with six months supply of food ? Is that purely the dollars talking ? If so then I guess I can understand.


----------



## MikeOReilly

tdw said:


> Mike O'R mentions that in drying meat you need to get the fat out. Therein of course lies the problem. Its the fat that gives meat the flavour. Remove the fat and you remove the taste. I appreciate however that if the meat is to be used in stews or casseroles then it is likely to be the herbs used that will create the flavour not the meat as such.
> 
> One questions aimed at Mike ..... don't know your planned cruising grounds but why do you see the need to try and stock your boat with six months supply of food ? Is that purely the dollars talking ? If so then I guess I can understand.


Q#1. You're right about the fat being flavourful. That's why all dried meats usually require processing of some sort. For jerky (beef or chicken) the meats are marinated and dried in the sauce. For beef mix, the lean meat is lightly cooked to remove the fat, then flavoured with a mixture of flour, garlic, onions and dried stock.

Q#2. Yes, it's mostly about the money. If money were no issue I'd be playing in the "$3,000/month" thread . In our specific case we are leaving jobs and income when we move on board. So we have some income now, but will have none in a few months. Having a food buffer will take some of the pressure off as we try and figure out how to make life-a-float sustainable.

But beyond that, I really am a fan of drying as preservation method. It's simple, and done right, allows food to last for years. But best of all, you end up with food that is nearly as fresh and flavourful as the day it was bought. I'm with you on most canned food. Much of it is less than appetizing. Not so with food you've dried yourself.


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## seafrontiersman

Speaking of dried food, I recall a dish I had up to Eastport, Maine called a "dryfish dinner" which is a specialty of the Canadian Maritimes. I had never had dried codfish before and it was delicious. Also had a Spanish dish of fried dried codfish fritters which was great! 

Maybe dried fish might just be a delicious option although fried SPAM is still better than sex!


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## Don L

seafrontiersman said:


> although fried SPAM is still better than sex!


saddest thing I've read in a long long time


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## tdw

seafrontiersman said:


> Speaking of dried food, I recall a dish I had up to Eastport, Maine called a "dryfish dinner" which is a specialty of the Canadian Maritimes. I had never had dried codfish before and it was delicious. Also had a Spanish dish of fried dried codfish fritters which was great!
> 
> Maybe dried fish might just be a delicious option although fried SPAM is still better than sex!


Bacalao I believe it is called and even I will admit that reconstituted dried cod will make a very tasty dish indeed but the Iberians are masters of the art. If you are going to dry fish you do need to make sure you choose the right species. Cod is good cos it is a good solid fleshy critter.

I'm not going near your sex life but I do know that I'd not swap the worst sex I've ever had for fried Spam.


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## Lou452

Nice post on all the dry foods ! I have not tried to dry any for myself. I should start .
I have been buying and trying some of the freeze dried foods. I have to say the instant mashed potato choices are excellent. I like to try some meals before I pack them. This way I find out if the meal is not as good as the picture. A good way to taste a few is to have a family style dinner. Everyone gets an different dinner and shares with each other. 
I like to camp and hike and weight is weight. Cans add weight and I go with the leave no trace so I pack my cans out. Empty weight even worse. I use this idea on the boat as I am in a lake not out in blue water.
One thing a can has going for it is durability. Let me bring up tuna as a point of reference. Tuna in the foil pouch is lighter but you need to use a little care as to how you pack it. 
Good Day, Lou


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## Lou452

One of the freeze dried meals in a bag I like is the beef stroganoff. The bag also makes a good dish. Be sure to let it steep or sit for a few minutes after you add the water. 
I am not sure this kind of meal is the best for a low budget ? If you buy it at a camping or sports store. Even in the big box stores a bag of food can get pricey. The instant potato bags are main stream so they are not as pricey. I find them to have good value. Making your own food cost time but less $ 
Any thoughts ?
good day, Lou


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## Brent Swain

tdw said:


> My problem with tinned meats and vegetables is that invariably they have been way overcooked. Quite possibly home canning/bottling would solve that problem but to be honest I cannot see me going down that path unless we were no longer boating and were living out in the country.
> 
> That the Brits could stomach the stuff and were grateful for it means sweet f all to me. If indeed I was starving then I'd more than likely eat it as well but that does not mean I am ever going to like it. I was forced to eat the much when I was a kid. I didn't like it then, I don't like it now and nothing is going to change that.
> 
> Mike O'R mentions that in drying meat you need to get the fat out. Therein of course lies the problem. Its the fat that gives meat the flavour. Remove the fat and you remove the taste. I appreciate however tat if the meat is to be used in stews or casseroles than it is likely to be the herbs used that will create the flavour not the meat as such.
> 
> One questions aimed at Mike ..... don't know your planned cruising grounds but why do you see the need to try and stock your boat with six months supply of food ? Is that purely the dollars talking ? If so then I guess I can understand.


The French like their meat undercooked ,in fact raw, slightly browned, on the outside only. The result is they have 30 times the food poisoning rate of the rest of the world.

I was given some canned pork. 90 minutes at 280 degrees had floated all the fat off it, and it was easily removed before eating.

I have accidentally dropped a bit of canned venison on the floor and it dried rock hard. Maybe drying after cooking would be an option.

I have read that you can dry eggs by cooking them first, then breaking them up ,drying and crumbling the cooked ,dried eggs. 
Drying oysters is easy, and they keep forever ,for stews etc.
I have dried a lot of fish at sea.


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## seafrontiersman

tdw said:


> Bacalao I believe it is called and even I will admit that reconstituted dried cod will make a very tasty dish indeed but the Iberians are masters of the art. If you are going to dry fish you do need to make sure you choose the right species. Cod is good cos it is a good solid fleshy critter.
> 
> I'm not going near your sex life but I do know that I'd not swap the worst sex I've ever had for fried Spam.


Why yes professor, the dish is called "Fritattas de Bacalao" but I didn't want to seem like a pedantic jerk flaunting my admittedlylimited command of Spanish. I should think that any mild fish would be a good candidate but I'm no expert.

FYI: Good old 'Made in USA" SPAM is SO much better than that Vegimite stuff! I've always wondered how a nation which makes the best rum in the world could go so VERY wrong!


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## tdw

seafrontiersman said:


> Why yes professor, the dish is called "Fritattas de Bacalao" but I didn't want to seem like a pedantic jerk flaunting my admittedlylimited command of Spanish. I should think that any mild fish would be a good candidate but I'm no expert.
> 
> FYI: Good old 'Made in USA" SPAM is SO much better than that Vegimite stuff! I've always wondered how a nation which makes the best rum in the world could go so VERY wrong!


Jaysus, lighten up ffs. You don't just have a chip on your shoulder mate you have the entire effing potato.


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## robertluster

barefootnavigator said:


> " I was penniless with a half stocked boat and found finding work here and there to be quite easy
> 
> I know there will be naysayers but what I'm really looking for is positive experiences of voyaging on a budget.



I'd love to hear about the "work here and there to be quite easy" - positive stories about how it's done are always interesting and welcome ​


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## manatee

Brent Swain said:


> The French like their meat undercooked ,in fact raw, slightly browned, on the outside only. The result is they have 30 times the food poisoning rate of the rest of the world.
> 
> I was given some canned pork. 90 minutes at 280 degrees had floated all the fat off it, and it was easily removed before eating.
> 
> I have accidentally dropped a bit of canned venison on the floor and it dried rock hard. Maybe drying after cooking would be an option.
> 
> I have read that you can dry eggs by cooking them first, then breaking them up ,drying and crumbling the cooked ,dried eggs.
> Drying oysters is easy, and they keep forever ,for stews etc.
> I have dried a lot of fish at sea.


 Mmmm --- good old powdered eggs omelets, Navy style --- they start turning green after the 3rd day so eat up --- green eggs and ham is not so appetizing as you might hope.

The stroganoff & turkey tetrazzini are pretty good & these guys sometimes have bargains on bulk buys.

*** Click the Pic ***


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## christian.hess

dried or salt cod is great...but not found everywhere...

hence my dry cured tuna recipe which can be made anywhere especially on a 2 week plus voyage

we make bacalao croquetas at the restaraunt as a specialty item...at the tapas bar nice with some classic tomato sauce or saffron aioli! hell yeah!

mmmmmmmmmmmm! yum


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## tdw

Bacalao is fairly common down this way and I'd have thought dried fish would be available in most of Asia. Though except for recipes hat call for it .... Bacalao Tortilla is a great example ... I'm not sure why anyone would go for dried fish when so much fresh seafood is available at quite reasonable prices or you could even catch it yourself.


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## svzephyr44

I do not understand how one can cruise on $500 per month when the clearing in fees for many places such as the Bahamas are $350 to $500. Unless cruising does not involve leaving the United States. Am I missing something?


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## christian.hess

yes you are missing something, unless on a huge time constraint you dont check into countries every month... like mentioned many times before when at sea or on some reef or anchorage where money is not needed or usefull you dont spend 500 or any for that matter, thats why cruising budgets done in a monthly manner like you would on land are not really objective...or that useful


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## barefootnavigator

robertluster said:


> I'd love to hear about the "work here and there to be quite easy" - positive stories about how it's done are always interesting and welcome ​


I've been able to find work all over the world but on this occasion I was in the US I sailed into a bay I had never had any desire to visit. It turned out to be so wonderful I came back and am wintering here. Within a day on the island a got a job that I was completely unqualified for paying $25 per hour for easy fun work. Pretty boring right  This year I'm going to try my luck at photographing boats for people. Way too much money in this part of the world.


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## christian.hess

you lucky b....

25 an hour huh...

thats like a million us salvadorean dolars! ajajajaja

save up my friend save up and come on down

christian


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## svzephyr44

christian.hess said:


> yes you are missing something, unless on a huge time constraint you dont check into countries every month... like mentioned many times before when at sea or on some reef or anchorage where money is not needed or usefull you dont spend 500 or any for that matter, thats why cruising budgets done in a monthly manner like you would on land are not really objective...or that useful


I guess my definition of "cruising" and yours is different. To me cruising means cruising, not sitting in a anchorage - free or otherwise for months at a time. I could sit at anchor off Christmas Tree Island year round for free. My only costs could be food if I was willing to row ashore to the store. I could beg on Duval Street and drink Thunderbird. I could visit the Emergency Room and claim I was destitute when it came time to pay. I could reduce my costs further by fishing and lobstering off the boat. I know people for whom this is a lifestyle. No telephone. No insurance. No boat repairs, for example no bottom painting. Some save further by not spending money on personal hygiene. I'll bet I could do this on much less than $500 per month. Its not a life style I would choose. Your mileage may vary.

As far as monthly budgeting - I respectfully disagree with your point. I have months when I technically spend nothing - its pretty hard when crossing the Atlantic for a month to spend money. But on an annual basis I have a pretty good idea how things will average out. I also know the months when I will spend more - for example during my annual boat maintenance month - bottom paint alone for my boat is close to $500 (the paint, not the application.) The month I pay my boat insurance I am going to exceed $500. As much as I sail, and I have spent a week becalmed and drifting waiting for wind, a tank of diesel fuel is $100. I know of few sheltered anchorages where one can sail in and anchor and then sail back out again.

When I first started cruising four years ago my budget was $800 per month. Yes, I managed to live on it. But I could not visit museums, go to historical sites, and do the things I wanted to do that fit into my definition of why I went cruising in the first place. Fortunately my financial condition changed and I was able to up my monthly expenditures a bit. For the first year most of the additional money went into the "deferred maintenance" account. As I elaborate here http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising-liveaboard-forum/119761-%243000-mo-cruising-budget.html I think that $2,000 per month is a reasonable floor for annualized monthly expenses. This assumes that one actually wants to leave the United States and see some other countries.

My point in posting is not to annoy anyone but rather to show a different perspective. I was naive when I moved aboard to live full time. (I am still naive, just about different things!) I just met a new cruiser who was planning on taking his boat to New York City next month - February. I mentioned that the entire city, not to mention many of the harbors along the way would be iced in. He said "really,I didn't think of that."

Yes, I believe one can live aboard for $500 per month or less. After all you can eat Ramen Noodles three times a day for less then $2.00 a day. I just don't think most people would find it a rewarding lifestyle.

Fair winds and following seas


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## joethecobbler

I wonder why it is that any time opposition to frugal minimalist existing is portrayed as an existence of less than honorable practice and verging on criminality? 
I would be curious to know if the plain living Amish would also be viewed in the same light? they live without electric, running water,indoor plumbing, use wood for heating /cooking and are exempt from many laws/taxes and "civic duties " .
I tend to like that approach,I just practice it from a floating platform!


----------



## Group9

joethecobbler said:


> I wonder why it is that any time opposition to frugal minimalist existing is portrayed as an existence of less than honorable practice and verging on criminality?
> I would be curious to know if the plain living Amish would also be viewed in the same light? they live without electric, running water,indoor plumbing, use wood for heating /cooking and are exempt from many laws/taxes and "civic duties " .
> I tend to like that approach,I just practice it from a floating platform!


The funny thing is one of the richest persons I know pretty much lives like that all of the time. That's how he got rich.

He drives a ten year old car, looks like he bought his clothes from a thrift store, and owns over a hundred hotels.


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## MikeOReilly

svzephyr44 said:


> My point in posting is not to annoy anyone but rather to show a different perspective....Yes, I believe one can live aboard for $500 per month or less. After all you can eat Ramen Noodles three times a day for less then $2.00 a day. I just don't think most people would find it a rewarding lifestyle.


With respect , it's easy NOT to cruise on the proverbial $500/month. Spendng more money is not hard to do (assuming one has more). The point of this discussion is to explore ways to live on board frugally.

I do appreciate your real-world experience. If you'd like to contribute something positive to this thread perhaps you can explore why you were unable to maintain your low budget plans. That may help people learn from what you've done, and the choices you've made. That way we can decide whether we can make other choices.


----------



## svzephyr44

MikeOReilly said:


> I do appreciate your real-world experience. If you'd like to contribute something positive to this thread perhaps you can explore why you were unable to maintain your low budget plans. That may help people learn from what you've done, and the choices you've made. That way we can decide whether we can make other choices.


I would say, in no particular order, the following:

1) Things that broke that I did not choose to live without, e.g. working sails.
2) Things that wear out, e.g. bottom paint, running rigging
3) The desire to go new places and see new things, e.g. country clearances
4) Safety, e.g. going into a marina or mooring ball when a bad storm was forecast

I was casting no aspersions on those who want to live frugally. Nor is there necessary a link between living frugally and those who either don't know or don't care - like the guy with the beautiful new 45 foot powerboat with a 10 pound anchor and 6 feet of chain. I left that anchorage in a hurry.

To the threads points on my attitude, I suggest it cuts both ways. It seems to be a point of pride among some in this thread that they can live cheaply is if those of us who choose to spend more are in some way evil. I found it impossible to properly maintain and insure myself and my boat on $800 per month in addition to eating and so forth. Since my boat is a significant part of my financial assets I did not choose to forego insurance - nor would most of the marinas I visited nor some of the countries I entered permit me to dock or enter their country without it. I also chose a life style that included travel - about 4,000 to 5,000 NM per year. It would have been significantly less expensive if I had stayed put or moved the boat once or twice a year from cruising area to cruising area.

I have met a number of young people who are looking for an inexpensive living environment. I told them to purchase a $5,000 boat and rent a mooring ball. That is a heck of a lot cheaper than living on land. But I would not choose to solo a $5,000 boat across the Atlantic Ocean. Others might, I don't have that much courage. 

Regards


----------



## christian.hess

svzephyr44 said:


> I guess my definition of "cruising" and yours is different. To me cruising means cruising, not sitting in a anchorage - free or otherwise for months at a time. I could sit at anchor off Christmas Tree Island year round for free. My only costs could be food if I was willing to row ashore to the store. I could beg on Duval Street and drink Thunderbird. I could visit the Emergency Room and claim I was destitute when it came time to pay. I could reduce my costs further by fishing and lobstering off the boat. I know people for whom this is a lifestyle. No telephone. No insurance. No boat repairs, for example no bottom painting. Some save further by not spending money on personal hygiene. I'll bet I could do this on much less than $500 per month. Its not a life style I would choose. Your mileage may vary.
> 
> As far as monthly budgeting - I respectfully disagree with your point. I have months when I technically spend nothing - its pretty hard when crossing the Atlantic for a month to spend money. But on an annual basis I have a pretty good idea how things will average out. I also know the months when I will spend more - for example during my annual boat maintenance month - bottom paint alone for my boat is close to $500 (the paint, not the application.) The month I pay my boat insurance I am going to exceed $500. As much as I sail, and I have spent a week becalmed and drifting waiting for wind, a tank of diesel fuel is $100. I know of few sheltered anchorages where one can sail in and anchor and then sail back out again.
> 
> When I first started cruising four years ago my budget was $800 per month. Yes, I managed to live on it. But I could not visit museums, go to historical sites, and do the things I wanted to do that fit into my definition of why I went cruising in the first place. Fortunately my financial condition changed and I was able to up my monthly expenditures a bit. For the first year most of the additional money went into the "deferred maintenance" account. As I elaborate here http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising-liveaboard-forum/119761-%243000-mo-cruising-budget.html I think that $2,000 per month is a reasonable floor for annualized monthly expenses. This assumes that one actually wants to leave the United States and see some other countries.
> 
> My point in posting is not to annoy anyone but rather to show a different perspective. I was naive when I moved aboard to live full time. (I am still naive, just about different things!) I just met a new cruiser who was planning on taking his boat to New York City next month - February. I mentioned that the entire city, not to mention many of the harbors along the way would be iced in. He said "really,I didn't think of that."
> 
> Yes, I believe one can live aboard for $500 per month or less. After all you can eat Ramen Noodles three times a day for less then $2.00 a day. I just don't think most people would find it a rewarding lifestyle.
> 
> Fair winds and following seas


not trying to be mean but reading comp is your friend...notice I SAID WHEN OFFSHORE

OR sitting around on reefs or islands where money sometimes cant even be used

you actuallt stated the same thing I did, some months you know you will spend more than others when out in the atlantic hard to spend money

I dont know where we are disagreeing that much bud...ive read your paragraphs and nod a lot...we agree...so maybe we are saying it differently?

dunno

yes of course there are different ways of cruising but in my experience those that were on a huge time constraint or cruised FAST spent much more money

especially when the diesel becomes the primary method of propulsion

*especially coastal cruising on a schedule* is the easiest way to spend more money...simply put you do everything more

refueling, re supllying, anchoring, slips? panga rides, taxi or bus rides to and from customs, api, whatever, dinghy fuel, meals at the beach, and on and on

you simply spend more

so yeah I guess we agree on one point thats is if you want to hop from port to port or anchorage to anchorage your chances of spending much more than $500 increases exponentially

again I stress this is mostly dependant on your lifestyle previous to cruising AND where you cruise

I know for sure that I couldnt cruise for less than 500 a month on the california coast unless I did nothing but look at the beach...thats mostly cause of the way stuff is on the california coast

but saying you cant do this in french polynesia(non tahit areas) or in asia(non phuket type areas) or he red sea, or indian ocean is well wrong I guess at least to me...cause we have done it...

from sri lanka to maldives to yemen we maybe spent for 3 people with checkins and food for the trip less than $200 per person...that included a check in in maldives, one in yemen before heading for the red sea....and all fees related to trip...

we had alreadty gassed up in sri lanka... but didnt use much fuel to get to yemen...so again its whatever your budget can handle that will dictate where you can cruise...

peace


----------



## christian.hess

joethecobbler said:


> I wonder why it is that any time opposition to frugal minimalist existing is portrayed as an existence of less than honorable practice and verging on criminality?
> I would be curious to know if the plain living Amish would also be viewed in the same light? they live without electric, running water,indoor plumbing, use wood for heating /cooking and are exempt from many laws/taxes and "civic duties " .
> I tend to like that approach,I just practice it from a floating platform!


im not a fan of tv but there is a program called living amish...on tlc or something

the amish or a big majority nowadays have NOTHING to do with the old dutch of yesteryear

they are for all intents and purposes about as fake as a nyc rasta guy...

just sayin


----------



## TQA

I will add my 2 cents as someone who has voyaged 'on the cheap' for 7 years in the 90s.

You can live well on the sums talked about. You just stock up where things are cheap and avoid the dear stuff. I don't think we ever ate ramen noodles as a meal. But breadfruit, green bananas, edoes, yams, rice and eggs are always cheap and fairly healthy food. Eat what the locals eat if you can. My daily menu included filter coffee and wine [ stock up in the French islands ] but not radicchio or cauliflower [these were seriously expensive in the Caribbean islands in the 90s] . I had ice for my rum and lime juice with water. Coke was a treat! It cost more than the rum, top tip have a 5 gallon container handy and find out when the Clarks Court bay rum factory is having an open day.

I too would gripe at paying the Bahamas $300 for entry, but stay 9 months and that is $34 per month. Not too much for some great cruising territory. It balances out with the French islands where the cost is essentially zero per month.

Things we did. 
Anchored out
Fixed things ourself.
Sailed rather than motored.
Sailed conservatively with the goal of not breaking anything, despite having a fairly bullet proof 38ft steel ketch we reduced sail on the transatlantics anytime we exceeded 6 knts. 
My cats lived on fresh fish, not bought cat food and the sand box had sand in it not kitty litter. Mind you the bed had sand in it too!
Ate a lot of chicken legs! Usually the cheapest protein around. 
Hired the odd car/scooter to explore but mostly used the local buses where we met lots of interesting and friendly people. This included inland Venuzuela a trip I would not do today.

Things we did not do.
Drink in bars.
Eat out in expensive yacht clubs but a roti in the Sweety Bird behind the book shop with a local juice was within budget.

Yes the boat did have some deferred maintenance items when I sold her. She certainly needed some new sails.

Those seven years when I was in my 40s were the best years of my life and the reason why I am back out again in retirement.


----------



## christian.hess

svzephyr44 said:


> I would say, in no particular order, the following:
> 
> 1) Things that broke that I did not choose to live without, e.g. working sails.
> 2) Things that wear out, e.g. bottom paint, running rigging
> 3) The desire to go new places and see new things, e.g. country clearances
> 4) Safety, e.g. going into a marina or mooring ball when a bad storm was forecast
> 
> I was casting no aspersions on those who want to live frugally. Nor is there necessary a link between living frugally and those who either don't know or don't care - like the guy with the beautiful new 45 foot powerboat with a 10 pound anchor and 6 feet of chain. I left that anchorage in a hurry.
> 
> To the threads points on my attitude, I suggest it cuts both ways. It seems to be a point of pride among some in this thread that they can live cheaply is if those of us who choose to spend more are in some way evil. I found it impossible to properly maintain and insure myself and my boat on $800 per month in addition to eating and so forth. Since my boat is a significant part of my financial assets I did not choose to forego insurance - nor would most of the marinas I visited nor some of the countries I entered permit me to dock or enter their country without it. I also chose a life style that included travel - about 4,000 to 5,000 NM per year. It would have been significantly less expensive if I had stayed put or moved the boat once or twice a year from cruising area to cruising area.
> 
> I have met a number of young people who are looking for an inexpensive living environment. I told them to purchase a $5,000 boat and rent a mooring ball. That is a heck of a lot cheaper than living on land. But I would not choose to solo a $5,000 boat across the Atlantic Ocean. Others might, I don't have that much courage.
> 
> Regards


I hope you werent reffering to me, my pride comes from simply having done it in the past and knowing that it can be done...so If I come as one upmanship or condescending im sorry

I just like to point out that it can be done...

your view seems to me to be very north america centric...no offence...with that comes the thought that thinking of your boat as a FINANCIAL ASSET and not simply a place to call home(temporary) like many frenchmen, spanish, italian cruisers for example mostly solo who never ever think of insuring their boats based on a philosphical principle...you now live every day as your last...enjoy! live life and hope for the best but be prepared for the worst?

you can call it frugal, cheap, or simply like me *not an option*....

its impossible to cruise with 500 a month and have insurance for offshore cruisng you just cant do it...

so I have learned to take advantage of situations or SEIZE THE DAY type attitudes instead of oh my god its so expensive to cruise I need more money, more insurance mor equipment, 2 liferafts, 2 ouboards 3 epirbs a spot messenger, 2 computers, 3 gps, 1 radar and one receiver, 3 vhfs, ais, ais receiver, chartplotter,

you know

CRUISING as we know it from *looking at boats in marinas* you know the west marina catalog boats...*that* cruising not:

pasasging, or *VOYAGING* as the french call it

its so easy to spend money...its making it thats hard...so learn to save and be frugal when well you can

if you like to not live in poverty or at poverty level when compared to land budgets then budegt more if you can

I guess thats all I was ever trying to point out...

fair winds too

the season is full blast down here...hopefully by april Ill be doing some voyaging to nicaragua and costa rica and panama for now

heres hoping and hopefully on $500 a month1

yeah!


----------



## MikeOReilly

svzephyr44 said:


> I would say, in no particular order, the following:
> 
> 1) Things that broke that I did not choose to live without, e.g. working sails.
> 2) Things that wear out, e.g. bottom paint, running rigging
> 3) The desire to go new places and see new things, e.g. country clearances
> 4) Safety, e.g. going into a marina or mooring ball when a bad storm was forecast


I think you raise excellent points. Maintaining a floating home is not always very cheap, especially when big things break. And moving from country to country quickly (how you define cruising) will clearly blow the frugal budget. These issues have already been discussed earlier on. I think it's been agreed that to keep costs down you must:

- Avoid pushing boat and crew so as to limit breakages. 
- DIY is the only way to go.
- Avoid motoring just to make distance.
- Plan to stay long periods of time in one place or region so as to reduce clearing-in costs.
- Avoid marina as much as possible.
- Stay away from expensive areas, particularly touristy areas.

On the issue of insurance, again if you go back earlier in this thread you will see that most people recognize the need to either go without insurance, or limit it to liability-only.



TQA said:


> I will add my 2 cents as someone who has voyaged 'on the cheap' for 7 years in the 90s.
> 
> You can live well on the sums talked about. You just stock up where things are cheap and avoid the dear stuff. I don't think we ever ate ramen noodles as a meal. But breadfruit, green bananas, edoes, yams, rice and eggs are always cheap and fairly healthy food. Eat what the locals eat if you can.


Thanks TQA. This gets back to the discussion about how to preserve food. When you find something that is cheap, stock up! But to do that you need some way of preserving. My approach is going to be drying food, but I'm clearly going to have to learn how to can as well. Already have the pressure cooker .



TQA said:


> Things we did.
> Anchored out
> Fixed things ourself.
> Sailed rather than motored.
> Sailed conservatively with the goal of not breaking anything, despite having a fairly bullet proof 38ft steel ketch we reduced sail on the transatlantics anytime we exceeded 6 knts.
> My cats lived on fresh fish, not bought cat food and the sand box had sand in it not kitty litter. Mind you the bed had sand in it too!
> Ate a lot of chicken legs! Usually the cheapest protein around.
> Hired the odd car/scooter to explore but mostly used the local buses where we met lots of interesting and friendly people. This included inland Venuzuela a trip I would not do today.
> 
> Things we did not do.
> Drink in bars.
> Eat out in expensive yacht clubs but a roti in the Sweety Bird behind the book shop with a local juice was within budget.


Exactly! Great list.

What I'm taking away from this discussion is that there's no big secret regarding how to live inexpensively. The challenge (for some of us) comes in learning to live within those limits.


----------



## joethecobbler

off topic - my heritage is of the Amish,it's not what is represented on TV. I can assure you.


----------



## joethecobbler

as per voyaging, I've not sailed aboard my own. vessel outside of the US. so I can only speak of my experience.
I've found an abundance of odd job opportunity in the course of my travel often without looking. even during the last 5-7 years when the economy has been less than stellar.
often the work only entails a couple days or weeks allowing me to sail on,to another anchorage.
when met with opposition or unfavorable regulations I simply don't stay,why would I?
also, once you get into the habit of that lifestyle it comes more naturally, just like most any habit.


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## christian.hess

that IS one thing I miss about the states...man every town had either a bike shop or chandlery or carpentry shop wahetever...even a library or coffee shop were odd jobs coud be found

stuff like that is hard to do outside...not all countries can offer that much in the way if unskilled labor job opportunities


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## svzephyr44

christian.hess said:


> that IS one thing I miss about the states...man every town had either a bike shop or chandlery or carpentry shop wahetever...even a library or coffee shop were odd jobs coud be found
> 
> stuff like that is hard to do outside...not all countries can offer that much in the way if unskilled labor job opportunities


Not to mention that in most countries outside the US you are prohibited from working unless you acquire a work visa


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## MikeOReilly

I'm also curious about this question of working while underway. As svzephyr44 says, all countries require work visas for foreign nationals (even the US, I assume). Do people get such visas when they take on a job, or do you try and work under the legal radar?


----------



## Minnesail

MikeOReilly said:


> Even meats can last for a year or more. The key is to get the fat out. It is fat that goes rancid, so using lean cuts is key.


I have dried meat for backpacking. I drain the fat off when cooking and drying, then when reconstituting it I add some olive oil to replace the fat that was earlier lost. Olive oil transports well and takes a long time to go bad, and it adds a lot of flavor to a dish.


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## mitchbrown

I've always been jealous of those that have the time to actually sail everywhere they go. To me this is reason enough to go low buck. If it means you get to get some beer when you get to port or do you have to spend the money on fuel. No contest here, get those sails up mate or you'll be walking the plank ARRRRGGGHHH


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## seafrontiersman

christian.hess said:


> that IS one thing I miss about the states...man every town had either a bike shop or chandlery or carpentry shop wahetever...even a library or coffee shop were odd jobs coud be found
> 
> stuff like that is hard to do outside...not all countries can offer that much in the way if unskilled labor job opportunities


You'd better be careful praising the evil United States here!

"OY! You're fookin' Baaaand Mate"

LOL...


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## christian.hess

about 20 pages back or midway jajja(man this thread flies) a lot of us were talking about job opprtunities and way to make a buck or 2 by not going under the radar if you will or getting a work visa

particualrily doing work for other cruisers and or communities...or even in exhange for goods

etc...


----------



## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> I'm also curious about this question of working while underway. As svzephyr44 says, all countries require work visas for foreign nationals (even the US, I assume). Do people get such visas when they take on a job, or do you try and work under the legal radar?


Mike... I have officially worked in two foriegn countries with work visas...

For China... the company I worked for had to send the government of China a 'reason and skillset' in order to get an 'invitation' to work there, this letter was then sent to the American Embassy in order to get the visa to work in China... I was then able to show this letter along with visa at Chinese customs to get the proper stamps on the passport and to take to the local police dept (they too track you there while my stay in Shanghai) both when you leave and return to China... I did this 3 times... also the tax implications as an exPat follows you... over 183 days in China you pay taxes to the Chinese government... that along with IRS taxes... no win here except the Foriegn Tax Credit IRS credits you.

For Montreal, I had to get a letter from my company to the company I worked for and this letter was taken to the border which I needed certified copies of my college degree/transripts to enter the country, they gave me a work visa for one year in the field of work I do (engineering)... but if the need for my particular skill was not needed in Montreal I would not have gotten the work visa.. the same over 183 days in Montreal, taxes in QC works the same.

I assume it is the same way with many countries but not sure how they do this with non skilled labor...

Hope this helps.


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## joethecobbler

countries have plenty of ditch diggers, no visa.
they want/need doctors and skilled professionals.
if you don't have a jumble of letters after your name your a tourist,thanks for visiting, now you go home.
always makes me laugh when people say(usually when discussing politics) "if you don't like it here in the USA,then get out" as if anywhere else would even allow you to live there! or as if you could just move like you're getting a new appt.
funny stuff.


----------



## newhaul

svzephyr44 said:


> I guess my definition of "cruising" and yours is different. To me cruising means cruising, not sitting in a anchorage - free or otherwise for months at a time. I could sit at anchor off Christmas Tree Island year round for free. My only costs could be food if I was willing to row ashore to the store. I could beg on Duval Street and drink Thunderbird. I could visit the Emergency Room and claim I was destitute when it came time to pay. I could reduce my costs further by fishing and lobstering off the boat. I know people for whom this is a lifestyle. No telephone. No insurance. No boat repairs, for example no bottom painting. Some save further by not spending money on personal hygiene. I'll bet I could do this on much less than $500 per month. Its not a life style I would choose. Your mileage may vary.
> 
> As far as monthly budgeting - I respectfully disagree with your point. I have months when I technically spend nothing - its pretty hard when crossing the Atlantic for a month to spend money. But on an annual basis I have a pretty good idea how things will average out. I also know the months when I will spend more - for example during my annual boat maintenance month - bottom paint alone for my boat is close to $500 (the paint, not the application.) The month I pay my boat insurance I am going to exceed $500. As much as I sail, and I have spent a week becalmed and drifting waiting for wind, a tank of diesel fuel is $100. I know of few sheltered anchorages where one can sail in and anchor and then sail back out again.
> 
> When I first started cruising four years ago my budget was $800 per month. Yes, I managed to live on it. But I could not visit museums, go to historical sites, and do the things I wanted to do that fit into my definition of why I went cruising in the first place. Fortunately my financial condition changed and I was able to up my monthly expenditures a bit. For the first year most of the additional money went into the "deferred maintenance" account. As I elaborate here http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising-liveaboard-forum/119761-%243000-mo-cruising-budget.html I think that $2,000 per month is a reasonable floor for annualized monthly expenses. This assumes that one actually wants to leave the United States and see some other countries.
> 
> My point in posting is not to annoy anyone but rather to show a different perspective. I was naive when I moved aboard to live full time. (I am still naive, just about different things!) I just met a new cruiser who was planning on taking his boat to New York City next month - February. I mentioned that the entire city, not to mention many of the harbors along the way would be iced in. He said "really,I didn't think of that."
> 
> Yes, I believe one can live aboard for $500 per month or less. After all you can eat Ramen Noodles three times a day for less then $2.00 a day. I just don't think most people would find it a rewarding lifestyle.
> 
> Fair winds and following seas


I have to say it again some of us don't have an option we have an approximate 500 a month to live on . I do so quite nicely last night I had a nice pork stir fry and tonight I may just have oysters on the half shell or clam fritters free meals just the fuel to cook them however they cost in excess of $40 a plate in some restaurants and I suppose our ideas of cruising do differ I'm never more than 50 or 75 nm from my marina but I could cruise and do cruise happily for less than some people pay a month for a truck or car payment . As far as maintance I have an islander Bahama 24 with a 6 HP evinrude outboard total of 3 thru hull seacocks and I beach it every so often to scrape the hull with a dollar ice scraper from wally world. The hull has never been painted and I don't see a need for me to do it now after all these years so my maintance is two or three ice scrapers a year at a cost of a buck each and the most expensive part is the geese I use on my seacock valves a three ounce tube costs twenty bucks but only need a verry small amount and only once every couple years keeps them working great ( the geese is specially designed for high pressure and high temp caustic environs) that's just me and my perticular lifestyle beats the heck out of some places and conditions I've had to live in so others can ***** and complain


----------



## tdw

seafrontiersman said:


> You'd better be careful praising the evil United States here!
> 
> "OY! You're fookin' Baaaand Mate"
> 
> LOL...


I have well and truly had it with you sunshine.

Please, do tell. When have you been banned or even threatened with banning because of your love of country ? Hmmm ?

You sir are one very strange creature, seemingly living in your very own very warped paranoid universe.

Banned because you love your country ? No, never. Banned because you shout support of your country for all to hear ? Not going to happen.

Banned for being a right royal pain in the arse ? Now there we have a possible future. I might just remind you that you were warned in December about sending abusive emails to another SailNetter so you are already on probation.

Tread carefully.


----------



## Don L

newhaul said:


> I have to say it again some of us don't have an option we have an approximate 500 a month to live on .


When it comes right down to a no BS answer for the thread question this it. If you only have $500/mo then you probably wouldn't be spending $1000/mo very often.

And if you are a "cruiser" you are going to have to find a place where $500/mo is a normal income and live the same way as they do, but on a boat.


----------



## seafrontiersman

tdw said:


> I have well and truly had it with you sunshine.
> 
> Please, do tell. When have you been banned or even threatened with banning because of your love of country ? Hmmm ?
> 
> You sir are one very strange creature, seemingly living in your very own very warped paranoid universe.
> 
> Banned because you love your country ? No, never. Banned because you shout support of your country for all to hear ? Not going to happen.
> 
> Banned for being a right royal pain in the arse ? Now there we have a possible future. I might just remind you that you were warned in December about sending abusive emails to another SailNetter so you are already on probation.
> 
> Tread carefully.


What exactly makes me a royal pain in the arse? Because I don't share a leftist philosophy'? Because I don't take denigration of my country and her culture cheerfully? If

Think I'll just give it a rest, don't want to aggravate anyone on this forum whose opinion I actually value. So long.


----------



## Don L

hey, shouldn't this personal public pissing battle be taken elsewhere (even though it is entertaining)?


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## newhaul

Don0190 said:


> hey, shouldn't this personal public pissing battle be taken elsewhere (even though it is entertaining)?


The post from tdw ( a senior moderator) was a friendly reminder to seafrontiersman that he was on probation for something he did last month that may have warrented some kind of sanction.


----------



## seafrontiersman

Don0190 said:


> hey, shouldn't this personal public pissing battle be taken elsewhere (even though it is entertaining)?


You're right about that, sorry.....

Not all that interested in this anyhow.

All the best.


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## joethecobbler

probation, or double secret probation? hmmmmm.

when opinions are outlawed, only outlaws will have opinions.


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## tdw

Don has a reasonable point in that this must be pretty boring for the rest of you but sometimes it is necessary to publicly call someone to order. Previously SFM had been warned privately and yes any further warnings will be by PM. Of course this lays me open to charges of secrectly harassing. 

Joe Cobbler .... please. No one is in danger of recrimination because of their views. Crikey if that were to be the case Id have crucified dear old Dabnis a long time ago. Nor is SFM likely, as I háve said before, going to be sanctioned because he is a right winger or because he stands up for his country. Indeed I have repeatedly asked him to back up his claims in those areas and he just as repeatedly fails to do so. 

Anywho, I'll leave this now. If either of you want to take it further then lets do it by PM.


----------



## timtim

I like to hear about every ones adventures on the water while having to budget there money. Its great that some are able to live their life happily with a small budget.
House on the water sailing to different locations for a change of scenery is what all of you have in common. The budgets may vary, but all of you seem to have a love for being on the water. There are many different Rums to satisfy our tastes and they all differ in price.


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## Brent Swain

If you cruise where people are spending a lot of money, so will you, or feel the pain of not having enough. If you cruise in places where people don't spend a lot of money , neither will you ,and you wont feel the pain of not having enough.


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## joethecobbler

it saddens me when I see people depressed about their inability to live up to others expectations.
it embarrasses me when I see people pass judgment on those unable to live up to their standards.

I try to share a simple, plain, non-destructive, low impact lifestyle so others can possibly benefit from simple money saving economical legal enjoyable alternative to living in poverty ashore.
I get judged,misquoted ,sent vulgar hate filled pm's and other niceties.
gotta love the internet.


----------



## Lou452

Do some of you think a number of sailors that are going to try to live on $500 a month are not here on sailnet ? A PC or I phone is not mandatory. 
I saw a documentary film of an older man living in Alaska. He did not have a phone, TV., Radio, His brother came to visit him in a float plane. He built his cabin and would canoe in the lake. He was a college grad. I am making a point of his education to show he was a "normal" human. His life was good. One draw back was that he was alone. He showed a remarkable skill with wood. I wish I could remember the title. I saw it on PBS. I will try to find and post.
This was not into the wild. He had more than a backpack. He was not bear food. He did not live in a cave or under a bridge. He was clean moral and having fun. He was eating a nice diet. He found the time to film. I will take a guess he was living on less than $500 a month. 
This was land based but it was still an alternate way of life. Something to think about.
Good day mates, Lou


----------



## outbound

Different strokes for different folks. Same wind,sun,waves, stars for all of us. Only standard that counts is yours but it only counts for you.


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## newhaul

Lou452 said:


> Do some of you think a number of sailors that are going to try to live on $500 a month are not here on sailnet ? A PC or I phone is not mandatory.
> I saw a documentary film of an older man living in Alaska. He did not have a phone, TV., Radio, His brother came to visit him in a float plane. He built his cabin and would canoe in the lake. He was a college grad. I am making a point of his education to show he was a "normal" human. His life was good. One draw back was that he was alone. He showed a remarkable skill with wood. I wish I could remember the title. I saw it on PBS. I will try to find and post.
> This was not into the wild. He had more than a backpack. He was not bear food. He did not live in a cave or under a bridge. He was clean moral and having fun. He was eating a nice diet. He found the time to film. I will take a guess he was living on less than $500 a month.
> This was land based but it was still an alternate way of life. Something to think about.
> Good day mates, Lou


The show was a documentary shot by Dick Proenneke about his solitary life at lake Clark. 
Alone in the Wilderness, the story of Dick Proenneke, by Bob Swerer Productions. hope the link works this time


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## tdw

Joe,
Maybe we don't agree about many things but nonetheless you have as much right to play here without being abused as anyone else. Abuse by PM is just as much out of order as abuse in the public forums. If you have been abused by PM please pass it on to me or one of the other mods and action will be taken.



joethecobbler said:


> it saddens me when I see people depressed about their inability to live up to others expectations.
> it embarrasses me when I see people pass judgment on those unable to live up to their standards.
> 
> I try to share a simple, plain, non-destructive, low impact lifestyle so others can possibly benefit from simple money saving economical legal enjoyable alternative to living in poverty ashore.
> I get judged,misquoted ,sent vulgar hate filled pm's and other niceties.
> gotta love the internet.


----------



## joethecobbler

no thanks, tdw.
sticks and stones.
Although I have to admit,I've been quite surprised at the vitriol responses that some of my opinions have fostered.
just reinforces my view of my view.
I would rather know where I stand with people than get blind -sided. thinking that we all are just exchanging harmless ideas and perspectives.
I've got thick skin and broad shoulders I think I'll pull through.
after all I am a bit conservative.
(like how I worked that in there)
peace.


----------



## Group9

I said it earlier, and I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings. But, I still think that anyone who thinks you can't live on $500 a month, just hasn't been in the situation where they had to.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Lou452 said:


> Do some of you think a number of sailors that are going to try to live on $500 a month are not here on sailnet ? A PC or I phone is not mandatory.


This is one point that always amuses me about these kinds of online discussion Lou. It would be easier to live inexpensively without all the costs associates with being online. With a few exceptions, of course, the people who really are living inexpensively are likely not online and not contributing to discussions like this.


----------



## Group9

MikeOReilly said:


> This is one point that always amuses me about these kinds of online discussion Lou. It would be easier to live inexpensively without all the costs associates with being online. With a few exceptions, of course, the people who really are living inexpensively are likely not online and not contributing to discussions like this.


Yep, because, for sure, you are never going to hit that $500 a month mark, paying for being on the internet every single day of the cruise. 

I still know people who have never even been on the internet (yes, they exist!).


----------



## JonEisberg

Hmmm, I'll bet this guy might be one making it on less than $500/month... Wouldn't exactly call this "Voyaging", however... 

Sweet looking boat, in this news clip from the Ft Myers Beach 'liveaboard community'... Damn, hard to imagine why 'Anchoring Rights' in places like s Florida have come under fire, no?

I'll bet one could "barely hear" those generators he's got on his aft deck, right?

Boat investigation sparked by kidnapping call - NBC-2.com WBBH News for Fort Myers, Cape Coral & Naples, Florida


----------



## Group9

JonEisberg said:


> Hmmm, I'll bet this guy might be one making it on less than $500/month... Wouldn't exactly call this "Voyaging", however...
> 
> Sweet looking boat, in this news clip from the Ft Myers Beach 'liveaboard community'... Damn, hard to imagine why 'Anchoring Rights' in places like s Florida have come under fire, no?
> 
> I'll bet one could "barely hear" those generators he's got on his aft deck, right?
> 
> Boat investigation sparked by kidnapping call - NBC-2.com WBBH News for Fort Myers, Cape Coral & Naples, Florida


Calling a homeless guy on a boat a cruiser, is like calling a homeless guy living under a bridge in a tent a camper.

Most of these type people's problem is not lack of money, but rather lack of good mental health, with a lot of substance abuse thrown in.

People with condos don't mind when they are out of sight under the bridge, but they don't like seeing them out of their half a million dollar balcony.

Homelessness is usually a symptom of their problem, not their underlying problem. And, with all of our social safety nets, it's not usually about money. My wife has a family member who suffers from this. They have collected her two dozen times, brought her home, fed her, bought her clothes, and cleaned her up, and tried to get her treatment. Every single time, they wake up one day, and find her gone.


----------



## ccriders

joethecobbler said:


> I try to share a simple, plain, non-destructive, low impact lifestyle so others can possibly benefit from simple money saving economical legal enjoyable alternative to living in poverty ashore.
> I get judged,misquoted ,sent vulgar hate filled pm's and other niceties.
> gotta love the internet.


Joe, 
Is that really true? Since you say PMs and not emails, then I assume you are saying Sailnetters send you vulgar, hate filled messages. I cannot imagine that this can be literally true. If so, please send them to the moderators for appropriate action. No one should have to suffer vulgarities to participate here.
I think most of this thread expresses the diversity of the human experience, yet shows our common bond with sailing. Nobody should take offense to others preferred lifestyle and read into their postings condemnation, but just sharing of ideas and personal knowledge and experiences. 
John


----------



## newhaul

Group9 said:


> Calling a homeless guy on a boat a cruiser, is like calling a homeless guy living under a bridge in a tent a camper.
> 
> Most of these type people's problem is not lack of money, but rather lack of good mental health, with a lot of substance abuse thrown in.
> 
> People with condos don't mind when they are out of sight under the bridge, but they don't like seeing them out of their half a million dollar balcony.
> 
> Homelessness is usually a symptom of their problem, not their underlying problem. And, with all of our social safety nets, it's not usually about money. My wife has a family member who suffers from this. They have collected her two dozen times, brought her home, fed her, bought her clothes, and cleaned her up, and tried to get her treatment. Every single time, they wake up one day, and find her gone.


That is true with many homeless people however the main difference for me and many others the difference between homeless and cruiser is having an address that you can receive mail at.


----------



## travlin-easy

In the fall of 2015, if my health is about the same as it is right now, and I still have most of my mental faculties, which my wife said is doubtful, I hope to head down the ICW to the Florida Keys again. This is the coldest winter I can recall in Maryland in the 7 decades I've lived here. Damned I hate winter in Maryland.

Now, I think that if I anchor out every night, which is fairly easy when you have onboard heat and air conditioning, I could probably survive quite well on $500 to $800 per month. My biggest expense is gasoline when heading down the ICW. However, my food bill is less than $100 every two weeks when living on the hook. 

As for the generator, Yes, I'm going to get one - Honda 2000i, which is very, very quiet and will run the 14,000 BTU heat pump on my boat. I just might end being a cruising bum, but if that's the case, I'm going to be a comfortable bum. Freezing my ass off, or sleeping in a pool of sweat is not fun, especially when you're old like me. 

Now, I can supplement my current income by playing music at the various tiki bars and marina yacht clubs while cruising. Not many folks can do what I do and make a decent living at it, especially cruisers. Additionally, I can catch fish when other folks cannot - but that's because I know how, where and when to catch them, a skill that I acquired when I was a kid and honed as an outdoor writer specializing in fishing. Yeah, I like the taste of fresh-caught fish cooked on the boat's gas grill. And, I could eat it 4 to 5 times a week without growing weary of the seafood diet.

I enjoy the taste of Coors Light, which can be found at bargain prices all along the east coast and ICW. Those Green Coconut Margarettas can be somewhat expensive to make, though.  

With luck, I'll be able to follow Jon Eisberg south in 2015. John usually runs the outside, which is fine when the weather cooperates. Unfortunately, that's not always the case in early October - I should know. I lost 17 days to bitter cold, blustery winds, 5 days to Hurricane Sandy, and another 10 days for repairs. So, that 30-day trip to the sunny south quickly transformed into a 60-day trip. I still had a ball, though.

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## JonEisberg

travlineasy said:


> With luck, I'll be able to follow Jon Eisberg south in 2015. John usually runs the outside, which is fine when the weather cooperates. Unfortunately, that's not always the case in early October - I should know. I lost 17 days to bitter cold, blustery winds, 5 days to Hurricane Sandy, and another 10 days for repairs. So, that 30-day trip to the sunny south quickly transformed into a 60-day trip. I still had a ball, though.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Trust me, Gary - no sensible person _EVER_ wants to follow me south  This pic was taken several years ago on Barnegat Bay on December 16, which is the earliest date I have _ever_ departed heading south on my own boat... Only twice have I ever left before Christmas, and one year I didn't get out until today's date, the final day of January... So, I would hope you would already be well settled in down in Marathon, by the time I usually get going... 

But, I'd certainly love to run into you one of these days, though I hope you could stomach some Heineken Light... Hell, for you, I might even break out some rum...


----------



## joethecobbler

good lord, leaving barnaget in December /January !
I'm at a loss for words.
do you just plan to run nonstop or. do you plan to stop usually? 
and why? are you just into it or? ??


----------



## windnrock

The longer you stay at sea, the less you spend. Unless, of course you are talking average spending, that goes to the bar the first night back on shore.


----------



## joethecobbler

ccriders said:


> Joe,
> Is that really true? Since you say PMs and not emails, then I assume you are saying Sailnetters send you vulgar, hate filled messages. I cannot imagine that this can be literally true. If so, please send them to the moderators for appropriate action. No one should have to suffer vulgarities to participate here.
> I think most of this thread expresses the diversity of the human experience, yet shows our common bond with sailing. Nobody should take offense to others preferred lifestyle and read into their postings condemnation, but just sharing of ideas and personal knowledge and experiences.
> John


yes,I've been cussed out by people on here via the PM.
actually I'm surprised how few times considering the fact I engage in controversial topics and am quite opinionated.
I can't hold it against anyone, I don't initiate any PM's so when it comes I give as good as I get, I struggle to keep it civil on this forum in deference to the rules,but it ain't always easy I admit.
I would spend more time on SA as it's more wide open, but I don't care for the way it displays on the screen. I find it difficult to follow.


----------



## tdw

MikeOReilly said:


> This is one point that always amuses me about these kinds of online discussion Lou. It would be easier to live inexpensively without all the costs associates with being online. With a few exceptions, of course, the people who really are living inexpensively are likely not online and not contributing to discussions like this.


The man has nailed it !!

As an example the Hiscocks went round something like three or four and a half times and from memory didn't even have a depth sounder or vhf until Wanderer IV.


----------



## svzephyr44

*Record?*

I wonder if this thread holds the record for the longest thread ever on Sailnet? My post is #582. It also might hold the record for Likes - at the moment 569.

Obamacare - Bill O'Reilly - Chris Christie - MSNBC

There, that should assure a continued set of posts. LOL


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## joethecobbler

tdw said:


> The man has nailed it !!
> 
> As an example the Hiscocks went round something like three or four and a half times and from memory didn't even have a depth sounder or vhf until Wanderer IV.


 and wooden boats as well if I remember correctly.


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## Lou452

Thanks Newhaul for finding the info on Dick Poenneke . 
Well what does this sailnet crowd think ? I know it is not a boat but I think this fits the thread.
Here is a man living a simple life for 30 years could he or did he enjoy himself on a very low dollar budget ? The key questions are was it fun? How much did he spend a month? Is he an artist so to speak? Does he have talent that is beyond reach of most people?
I see he did have his own plane. Expensive an airplane can bust the budget. I also see he crashed it. That's a hard way to get back on a budget.  
I did make some mistakes on statements in my first post. Sorry it was just a show I watched years ago. Dicks skill with hand tools is impressive.
I hope to have more time to read more of what was posted thoroughly I was pressed for time. 
Good day, Lou


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## tdw

joethecobbler said:


> and wooden boats as well if I remember correctly.


That's true though the Roths covered a lot of ocean in a glass boat with not a lot more in the way of electronics.

I'm unashamedly attached to gizmos though to be honest I wouldn't mind jettisoning some of them. Nonetheless most of them are not necessary. Good to have, yes but necessary, no.

Today, most places require you have at least a VHF radio and surely a depthsounder would be nice but other than that ? Frippery.

(Joe ... see my PM re abusive PMs)


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## travlin-easy

Nothing to be ashamed of, fuzzy. Technology is just one more great tool that we can utilize to make sailing a lot safer. Yes, the Pardy's and Hiscocks sailed the world in wooden boats with essentially nothing more than a sextant, compass and charts, but keep in mind those charts, the compass and sextant were advancements in technology, albeit in 1421 when they were created. But it beat the crap out of just guessing where you were. At the time, I'll bet there was someone that said "I don't need no stinkin' compass, charts or sextant." 

Gary


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## blowinstink

tdw said:


> I'm unashamedly attached to gizmos though to be honest I wouldn't mind jettisoning some of them. Nonetheless most of them are not necessary. Good to have, yes but necessary, no.


I share that view.


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## joethecobbler

I use a compass,depth, handheld gps,and paper charts. I don't really need much else, oh and a couple VHF.
just. coastal hopping,and bay sailing.


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## seafrontiersman

The ships I serve in often have spiffy new plotters, ARPA units, DP systems, and other expensive gizmos which almost never fail to leave me underwhelmed; nothing replaces good seamanship and judgement. Having said that, I have nothing against gizmos as long as they work when you want them to. The new fancy whizz bang gadgets tend to have lots of issues for about 5 years, when they get less expensive anyway.....


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## travlin-easy

Never had an issue with any gadget - they all worked just like the manufacturer said they would. Never in more than a half-century on the water had a single electronic gadget fail. Did have a compass go to Hell once, though. Came down off a nasty wave and the needle jumped right off the pin. Managed to get back home on the Loran-C though and found Chincoteague, VA inlet just as the sun went down. Damned those skeeters were nasty there. 

Gary


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## aeventyr60

MikeOReilly said:


> This is one point that always amuses me about these kinds of online discussion Lou. It would be easier to live inexpensively without all the costs associates with being online. With a few exceptions, of course, the people who really are living inexpensively are likely not online and not contributing to discussions like this.


WIFI is free.......gets me off the boat. Exotic wifi locations my speciality.


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## MikeOReilly

aeventyr60 said:


> WIFI is free.......gets me off the boat. Exotic wifi locations my speciality.


Yes, well I did say with a few exceptions .

I've heard that free wifi hotspots are becoming harder to find. Those of you out there ... what are you finding? Are free wifi spots on the wane?


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## guitarguy56

Everett Marina has free wifi, most Starbucks I've been to have free wifi along with most fast food places. Sometimes you can tap into the library wifi and some hotels give you the wifi service free of charge. I have never had too much trouble getting free wifi except when I travel as it's much harder to get the free wifi and will have to pay it through your phone service which then gets very expensive to use.


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## travlin-easy

Just about every marina has free wi-fi, and there are loads of other, unsecured sites all along the east coast ICW. I used a $19 USB booster antenna and was able to find signals to 7 miles away. There were times, though, when I just couldn't find a free signal, particularly in the swamps of southern VA and NC. Most of the time, though I had a great connection, sufficient to watch movies and upload photos to photobucket.

Gary


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## MikeOReilly

Good to know guys. Of course, getting "free" wifi in a marina or Starbucks is probably not free -- likely not at no cost. Seems to me you've gotta stay out of marinas and urban areas to stay on that proverbial $500/month budget.

Gary, do you find you're able to get free wifi without going into the marina? IOW, without paying any marina fees? I am planning to install a WIFI antenna so I can boost signals.


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## guitarguy56

My marina in Everett requires you to pay slip fees to get the free wifi... they give you a card with the login passwords... I can't just log into other marinas without their passwords... it's through the Triton portal networks... I'm sure you can get the wifi booster antenna and I have an antenna set up on my my mast up high to get the best signal... and do pull in many wifi hotspots but many will need some sort of password to get in... many are secured wifi... don't know about cruising the ICW...


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## travlin-easy

It depends upon the marina - some had free wi fi, with no passwords etc... required, while others required that you stayed there in order to access it. Also, many cities and even small towns have free WI-FI, including Baltimore, Norfolk, Miami, and many others - no password required. Keep in mind, though, these are unsecured sites therefore, this is not where you would do your online checking and bill paying unless you want the entire free world to have access to all your information. It's just a great way to keep in touch via email and to access sites such as this one.

Gary


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## newhaul

Lou452 said:


> Thanks Newhaul for finding the info on Dick Poenneke .
> Well what does this sailnet crowd think ? I know it is not a boat but I think this fits the thread.
> Here is a man living a simple life for 30 years could he or did he enjoy himself on a very low dollar budget ? The key questions are was it fun? How much did he spend a month? Is he an artist so to speak? Does he have talent that is beyond reach of most people?
> I see he did have his own plane. Expensive an airplane can bust the budget. I also see he crashed it. That's a hard way to get back on a budget.
> I did make some mistakes on statements in my first post. Sorry it was just a show I watched years ago. Dicks skill with hand tools is impressive.
> I hope to have more time to read more of what was posted thoroughly I was pressed for time.
> Good day, Lou


Not a problem click the thank they show it here on pubs Chanel 9 or 28 at least every 6 months in the great pnw we are very in tune with the outdoors and low impact lifestyles


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## tdw

For what it is worth .... Free marina WiFi is not likely to be an option down here if you truly want to keep within the USD500.00 mark. Marinas only give out WiFi password when you sign in. On AUD600 a month .... Oz Dollar is not worth what it was so your USD goes further ..... you cannot afford to even think about staying in an Oz marina. Non password protected WiFi hotspots are as common as Dodos down under. Anywho, lets face it on USD500pm you cannot afford to pay a dime for a berth. Anchor is your only option surely.


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## newhaul

tdw said:


> For what it is worth .... Free marina WiFi is not likely to be an option down here if you truly want to keep within the USD500.00 mark. Marinas only give out WiFi password when you sign in. On AUD600 a month .... Oz Dollar is not worth what it was so your UDS goes further ..... you cannot afford to even think about staying in an Oz marina. Non password protected WiFi hotspots are as common as Dodos down under. Anywho, lets face it on USD500pm you cannot afford to pay a dime for a berth. Anchor is your only option surely.


Here there are guest marinas that have free WiFi usually owned and operated by city or county gov I know some that charge ten bucks a day plus three for power and a couple that charge as little as $.50 per ft per day and that includes free showers state marine parks that charge the same but charge for the showers so ocasionaly in a marina yes but you are correct not if you do it everyday.


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## tdw

newhaul said:


> Here there are guest marinas that have free WiFi usually owned and operated by city or county gov I know some that charge ten bucks a day plus three for power and a couple that charge as little as $.50 per ft per day and that includes free showers state marine parks that charge the same but charge for the showers so ocasionaly in a marina yes but you are correct not if you do it everyday.


Wow .... I can only really speak of Sydney and Coastal NSW but such a critter simply does not exist down here. Years back when I was up north it seemed that most of the sailing/yacht clubs in smaller settlements offered free facilities to visiting boat's crews but I dare say those days are either long gone or don't include such niceties as free WiFi. Free btw only if you anchored out, not free berths or moorings.


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## Brent Swain

I use libraries for internet access, which are free, as well as other free sites. I traded some work for my last computer ,which cost the buyer $100. This one cost me $140. Internet is not all that expensive here.
I also get a lot of abuse for suggesting simpler, more affordable ways of doing things. In the process they also abuse those who could benefit from such information, by trying to discourage people from making it available to low income cruisers. Those who stand to benefit could speak up a bit more .


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## newhaul

tdw said:


> Wow .... I can only really speak of Sydney and Coastal NSW but such a critter simply does not exist down here. Years back when I was up north it seemed that most of the sailing/yacht clubs in smaller settlements offered free facilities to visiting boat's crews but I dare say those days are either long gone or don't include such niceties as free WiFi. Free btw only if you anchored out, not free berths or moorings.


I can't speak of the sailing down under at all the last time I was there was the early fall of 1990 and didn't have the opportunity to do any sailing.


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## svzephyr44

Just curious... A number of people of said they cruise on $500 per month (or $6,000 per year) because that is all the money they have. The US Federal poverty level for a single individual is an income less than $11,400 per year (2013) That would suggest such cruisers (if in the US) are eligible for Federal and State aid.

I can understand that disclosure of this kind would be a touchy subject. Also that just because one can does not mean one does take advantage of any particular program. But I am curious on two fronts:
1) Do cruisers take advantage of Federal (and State) assistance programs?
2) Does living on a boat create any particular challenge when taking advantage of such a program? I know that I have run afoul of various bureaucracies since my domicile and legal address is in Wisconsin, my mailing address is in New Jersey, and my residence address is wherever I happen to be.


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## JonEisberg

joethecobbler said:


> good lord, leaving barnaget in December /January !
> I'm at a loss for words.
> do you just plan to run nonstop or. do you plan to stop usually?
> and why? are you just into it or? ??


Being in the yacht delivery business is not very conducive to getting my own boat south in a more timely fashion in the fall, I'm usually pretty busy running other people's boats well into December... My trips south can be pretty compressed affairs, as I generally try to be back home again by mid-April again, as well...

I usually try to run straight thru to Norfolk, inside to Beaufort/Morehead, then outside as much as possible from there... I used to be able to save a lot of time by staying outside to Oregon Inlet when the weather permitted, but unfortunately the present status of Oregon Inlet has made that route too risky for my taste, I don't even go that way with powerboats anymore.. That's a shame, because that route in a sailboat, in favorable conditions, can save a LOT of time, and engine hours...


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## joethecobbler

awesome, after a couple ditch runs that route sounds appealing.
what about ocracoke inlet? ever do that one?
I've been in silver lake and inside to manteo.never been through the inlet, but looks enticing. black beard liked it.


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## JonEisberg

newhaul said:


> Here there are guest marinas that have free WiFi usually owned and operated by city or county gov I know some that charge ten bucks a day plus three for power and a couple that charge as little as $.50 per ft per day and that includes free showers state marine parks that charge the same but charge for the showers so ocasionaly in a marina yes but you are correct not if you do it everyday.


Guess it's no surprise that the majority of the $500/Month Club here are from the PNW... Pretty tough to find marina/dockage rates even remotely comparable to those anywhere on the East Coast, Newfoundland is the only place that comes to mind where I might have paid as little as $10/day for dockage (in a community where I was actually charged, that is)










Injecting a discussion of transient marina fees in a discussion of "Voyaging" on $500/month is really a bit silly, few expenditures are likely to blow such a budget more quickly than taking moorings, or paying for transient dockage...


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## Don L

JonEisberg said:


> Injecting a discussion of transient marina fees in a discussion of "Voyaging" on $500/month is really a bit silly


Say what ??????????????????????????? Transient fees are 100% part of "voyaging"!


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## JonEisberg

joethecobbler said:


> awesome, after a couple ditch runs that route sounds appealing.
> what about ocracoke inlet? ever do that one?
> I've been in silver lake and inside to manteo.never been through the inlet, but looks enticing. black beard liked it.


I've gone out Hatteras Inlet a few times years ago, but have only been thru Ocracoke once, probably 20 years ago, with a 49' Grand Banks trawler... At that time, I vowed "never again", it was pretty sketchy... 

But Ocracoke has improved considerably, since then, or so I've heard, so I wouldn't rule it out... If I were sailing my own boat to the Virgin Islands, for example, I'd consider jumping off from Ocracoke or Hatteras (after having scoped out either inlet again beforehand, of course), such a point of departure would get you across the Stream very quickly. but, when heading down the coast, going out of Ocracoke doesn't really gain you much of an advantage. Plus, I really like both Beaufort and Morehead anyway, if I have to sit anywhere for a bit to wait for weather, or do any provisioning, etc, there are few better places to be...

The primary concern I'd have about Ocracoke nowadays, is that since the closure of the CG station there years ago, the marking of the channel is not likely to be updated as frequently as it once was... You'd be more heavily dependent upon local knowledge now, it would seem very unwise to consider using Ocracoke without checking with the charter boat captains at the Anchorage first...


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## MikeOReilly

JonEisberg said:


> Guess it's no surprise that the majority of the $500/Month Club here are from the PNW... Pretty tough to find marina/dockage rates even remotely comparable to those anywhere on the East Coast, Newfoundland is the only place that comes to mind where I might have paid as little as $10/day for dockage (in a community where I was actually charged, that is).
> ...
> Injecting a discussion of transient marina fees in a discussion of "Voyaging" on $500/month is really a bit silly, few expenditures are likely to blow such a budget more quickly than taking moorings, or paying for transient dockage...


Yes, obviously the only way to keep the expenditures low is to anchor out and avoid marina costs like the plague. But I'm glad to hear NFLD is a cheaper place to play. We expect to be sailing The Rock by 2015/16.


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## blowinstink

JonEisberg said:


> I've gone out Hatteras Inlet a few times years ago, but have only been thru Ocracoke once, probably 20 years ago, with a 49' Grand Banks trawler... At that time, I vowed "never again", it was pretty sketchy...
> 
> But Ocracoke has improved considerably, since then, or so I've heard, so I wouldn't rule it out... If I were sailing my own boat to the Virgin Islands, for example, I'd consider jumping off from Ocracoke or Hatteras (after having scoped out either inlet again beforehand, of course), such a point of departure would get you across the Stream very quickly. but, when heading down the coast, going out of Ocracoke doesn't really gain you much of an advantage. Plus, I really like both Beaufort and Morehead anyway, if I have to sit anywhere for a bit to wait for weather, or do any provisioning, etc, there are few better places to be...
> 
> The primary concern I'd have about Ocracoke nowadays, is that since the closure of the CG station there years ago, the marking of the channel is not likely to be updated as frequently as it once was... You'd be more heavily dependent upon local knowledge now, it would seem very unwise to consider using Ocracoke without checking with the charter boat captains at the Anchorage first...


I was going to head north out of Ocracoke last fall and had spoken with a couple of the fishing boat captains one of whom was going to lead me out. They confirmed that there was plenty of water if you stayed in the right places. They also confirmed that the marking could be really poor (they both told me that one of the markers . . . don't remember which) had broken loose and was laying on a sandbar for a week or more. I would be much more willing to consider going out of Ocracoke than coming in . . . both because you can pick your conditions and find a pro to follow through.


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## travlin-easy

The last time I went through Hatteras and Oregon inlets was about 10 years ago in a 21-foot center console powerboat. Both inlets are no longer suitable for sailboats at all, they're not maintained and Oregon is currently nothing more than a ditch through the surf that constantly shifts to a new, often undisclosed, location. The tide ripping through Hatteras Inlet was such that most of the charter fishing and commercial fishing boats tend to avoid it unless the tide is slack - yeah, it's that bad.

I did find a nice anchorage behind the Hook at Cape Lookout, which is just a short hop to Beaufort Inlet. Beaufort Inlet was a piece of cake the last time I went through it.

As stated above, Marina hopping is very expensive - I should know. It kicked the Hell out of my budget last fall. And the only reason I went to those marinas was I was totally unprepared for the intense cold I encountered last October and November. I shivered through many days of sitting behind the helm, in a heavy coat, sweater, boots, gloves etc... with no one to give me a break at the helm so I could go below and warm up. The temperature was in the low 40s many days, and while that's above freezing, 10 hours of exposure, with some blustery winds will quickly chill you to the bone. If I do the ICW again in 20015 I WILL have a Honda 2000i generator onboard to run the boat's heat pump.

Gary :cool


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## JonEisberg

Don0190 said:


> Say what ??????????????????????????? Transient fees are 100% part of "voyaging"!


Most people would agree with you, but I think you missed my point...

Keeping to the OP's assertion of the feasability of "Voyaging", and "Going Offshore" while sticking to such a low budget, I'm simply listing staying in marinas as one of numerous expenses that need to be seriously curtailed in order to do so... In order to sustain such a modest budget over the long haul, I just don't see how you do it without foregoing such things as insurance (both health, and for the boat), avoidance of things like Panama Canal transits, or visits to a place like the Galapagos, the use of paper charts in many regions, the maintenance of regular internet access, and so on... In many places, of course, marina or harbor fees can be very difficult to avoid, but they certainly need to be kept at an absolute minimum of one is indeed aspiring to be actually "Voyaging" to distant places/foreign countries on such a tight budget...


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## Lou452

SVZepher44 I am sure someone is doing it legit and someone is beating the system. Most of the time I would think that by the time you get down to $500 a month/ $6000 a year is all you have, you will not be sailing. Hand to mouth and destitute you will not be on a voyage. I am not sure who already said living under a bridge is not camping/backpacking and broke on the boat is not a cruise. I agree with that. 
I feel a case can be made for low cost cruising and budgets but before one can do this they need a means to make it available. You would not have to have vast wealth but enough reserve or an escape path that will enable you to do so.
Less face it if you are in poor position and income it will cost you more to live. This sounds like a wild statement but think it over. You will not be able to hold out for a deal you will have to pay the "interest" and the cost of being poor. Your choice options and time will be limited. I know Barefoot will take me to task on time with an position that because you have less stuff you have more time.
I will give a quick example If you go to the doctor and you have medical insurance the insurance company gets a discount you will not get. You will be billed the cash price and it is higher than the discount rate that a more affluent person has to pay. You will not have the time luxury of an appointment. You will walk to an ER and sit for hours waiting and then will get the minimum care so you may be back the next week to repeat the whole deal like the movie Groundhog Day.
I do not want to start a medical debate or a rich, poor and why the world keeps turning debate. What I am trying to say is it is unlikely that in my land the USA. you can live on $500 unless you build a system that will support you first.
If you are Amish you have a system. If you lived like Dick Poenneke you have a system. If you are an 18 year old kid that has the boat and family that can and will bail you out if needed, you have a system. If you are member of some cult  you might have a system. Barefoot may have a system. I do not think here in the USA. you can start at $500 and expect to obtain a boat worth $x
I say one needs a position of financial security before you can plan .
Good day, Lou


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## windnrock

Everybody has their own views on what it takes to make them comfortable or safe. Living on $500 a month is not a unfeasible task. There are people who are frightened at the prospect of living on less than a few millions a year and there are folks in some countries who get by on a few dollars a month. If you can be happy and reasonably safe, what matters the cost or lack thereof? Next time I stuff my face with lobster I caught, for free, I don't expect any pity!


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## svzephyr44

joethecobbler said:


> a
> what about Ocracoke inlet? ever do that one?


I have run it in a center console with a depth sounder. I would not touch it in my sailboat without a very calm day and a lead boat running depth profiles ahead of my bow.  Your mileage may vary


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## svzephyr44

windnrock said:


> Everybody has their own views on what it takes to make them comfortable or safe. Living on $500 a month is not a unfeasible task.


This will be my last post on this thread. I feel like we are flogging a dead horse.

My point, and I repeat it (the devil made me do it!) is that if the title of this thread were "Living Aboard for $500 per month" I most likely would not have even joined the discussion. But the title is "Voyaging on $500 per Month." I do not consider "Living Aboard" and "Voyaging" to be synonyms. When I tired to "Voyage" on $800 per month I quickly learned it was impossible (for me.) So I went to "Living Aboard" until I was able to afford "Voyaging." Yes, people have different perspectives of their financial needs and standards of living. They also have different perspectives of what are valid life styles. If you want to live with a bow, flint and steel, and a knife in the woods go for it. But when your uninsured boat drags into mine and I have to pay for the repairs, or when you can't pay your medical bills so I have to pay more for mine, or when I have to tow you into shore (or pay for a Coast Guard to do the same) because your old sails blew out and you can't navigate then I reject your lifestyle choices. And yes, my wallet has paid for every one of these examples.

*OUT*


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## MikeOReilly

svzephyr44 said:


> This will be my last post on this thread. I feel like we are flogging a dead horse.
> 
> My point, and I repeat it (the devil made me do it!) is that if the title of this thread were "Living Aboard for $500 per month" I most likely would not have even joined the discussion. But the title is "Voyaging on $500 per Month." I do not consider "Living Aboard" and "Voyaging" to be synonyms. ...


I'm not sure it's worth responding to your comments since you've promised to leave the discussion, but also because they are silly, anal, and a tad insulting.

Silly b/c your perspective is hyperbolic and ridiculous. When you start claiming people need to "live with a bow, flint and steel, and a knife in the woods" to travel inexpensively, you're clearly just working the room for laughs. :laugher

Anal, b/c you seem to predicate everything on _your way is the only way_. If people don't "voyage" they way you define it, then it isn't voyaging, therefore this whole discussion is bunk. Chill out buddy. There as many ways to "voyage" as their are cruisers. 

And insulting b/c you appear to equate low cost cruising with someone being irresponsible and a drain on you the righteous, and right-minded, taxpayer. ... Or were you going for more laughs here .

We get it. You tried, and failed. I appreciate your sharing this. It's good to have real experiences on all sides. But just b/c you couldn't do it, doesn't mean others can't. And beyond this, the point of this discussion is to share ideas about how to cruise inexpensively. Cruising at $800/month is great. Why not discuss how you managed that?


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## Lou452

Not trying to inflame this thread I think I am risking doing just that by saying I agree with many of Mike's comments. 
If you watched Dick's movies when he was off in the woods with his knife  he managed quite well. The Amish seem to have it figured out. No starving diet in these two examples. 
Not a life style choice for me. I can learn about how they save without living it. 
I also was able to read about a house in Popular Science. This house made its own water power heat and air with food production. It may have been a billon dollar house. To live in it you would need less than $500 a month ? This might fit for me ?
Good day, Lou


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## aeventyr60

MikeOReilly said:


> Yes, well I did say with a few exceptions .
> 
> I've heard that free wifi hotspots are becoming harder to find. Those of you out there ... what are you finding? Are free wifi spots on the wane?


Mike,

Free WIFI abounds in Asia, every cafe, bar, restaurant, girly bar,barber shop has it. In some anchorages we can pick up the signal while anchored.

Subscription type plans are available for usually around 30 bucks a month.

I got a FREE sim cel phone card with 10 Baht, a tourist promo to call home. Calls to the USA are around 3 cents a minute. I struggle to spend 10 bucks a month on phone use age

Kids here can recharge cel phones for a little as 5 baht (15 cents).

Telcoms are making huge money off you folks. great dividends on the stocks too....

OK, so you want to know what 500 bucks a month got us last year?

Marina Berth 130.00 (100 Malaysian Ringit per week) ( free wifi included) + a 50 Ringit restaurant voucher per week. Good for a Pizza, Burger and two soft drinks. Other cruisers left to travel and gave us additional vouchers.... we had some fun times taking people out dinner....for FREE.

Gym membership 100.00 We were getting ready to trek in Nepal so spent the afternoons training in the Gym.

30-35 dollars a week in the local wet market for fresh food, meat fruit veggies.

The rest was spent on eating out, bus rides, local touring and a few drinks around town.

Nor sure we even spent the entire 500.00

All I do know is in Asia it is Possible! You don't have to live like a bum, be a skin flinnt or look like a destitute 1st world sailor.

As I said in an earlier post, You guys gotta a get out a bit......

I'll give you and update what the last three months have cost....for cruising in some of the best waters in the world.


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## Lou452

How many Mc'donald s are out in the world ? Everyone I have visited has free internet the Public library I am sure others can name more hot spots.
Still I think if you are out on less than $500 internet might not be worth it to your life style, Why would you need to hear what Bill Gates and Microsoft are doing or what Justin Beaver's latest stunt happens to be ? A game of Chess Or getting a fish on the line might mean more than a half hour on the PC. Your view of the world might be so totally different. 
Good Day, Lou


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## newhaul

svzephyr44 said:


> Just curious... A number of people of said they cruise on $500 per month (or $6,000 per year) because that is all the money they have. The US Federal poverty level for a single individual is an income less than $11,400 per year (2013) That would suggest such cruisers (if in the US) are eligible for Federal and State aid.
> 
> I can understand that disclosure of this kind would be a touchy subject. Also that just because one can does not mean one does take advantage of any particular program. But I am curious on two fronts:
> 1) Do cruisers take advantage of Federal (and State) assistance programs?
> 2) Does living on a boat create any particular challenge when taking advantage of such a program? I know that I have run afoul of various bureaucracies since my domicile and legal address is in Wisconsin, my mailing address is in New Jersey, and my residence address is wherever I happen to be.


Mine is via disability and I am eligible for 187 a month in USDA food assistance you just need to prove a mailing address and a pmb or po box does that its however only useable in the state that it was issued in. Here's a link to check eligibility Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) | Food and Nutrition Service


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## Omatako

tdw said:


> Wow .... I can only really speak of Sydney and Coastal NSW but such a critter simply does not exist down here. Years back when I was up north it seemed that most of the sailing/yacht clubs in smaller settlements offered free facilities to visiting boat's crews but I dare say those days are either long gone or don't include such niceties as free WiFi. Free btw only if you anchored out, not free berths or moorings.


The entire island of Rarotonga is covered by free wifi. Everywhere. No passwords no fees, no licences.

Out amongst the islands, the wifi is often government funded because many residents can't afford it. It is likely to expand.


----------



## JonEisberg

aeventyr60 said:


> Mike,
> 
> Free WIFI abounds in Asia, every cafe, bar, restaurant, girly bar,barber shop has it. In some anchorages we can pick up the signal while anchored.
> 
> Subscription type plans are available for usually around 30 bucks a month.
> 
> I got a FREE sim cel phone card with 10 Baht, a tourist promo to call home. Calls to the USA are around 3 cents a minute. I struggle to spend 10 bucks a month on phone use age
> 
> Kids here can recharge cel phones for a little as 5 baht (15 cents).
> 
> Telcoms are making huge money off you folks. great dividends on the stocks too....
> 
> OK, so you want to know what 500 bucks a month got us last year?
> 
> Marina Berth 130.00 (100 Malaysian Ringit per week) ( free wifi included) + a 50 Ringit restaurant voucher per week. Good for a Pizza, Burger and two soft drinks. Other cruisers left to travel and gave us additional vouchers.... we had some fun times taking people out dinner....for FREE.
> 
> Gym membership 100.00 We were getting ready to trek in Nepal so spent the afternoons training in the Gym.
> 
> 30-35 dollars a week in the local wet market for fresh food, meat fruit veggies.
> 
> The rest was spent on eating out, bus rides, local touring and a few drinks around town.
> 
> Nor sure we even spent the entire 500.00
> 
> All I do know is in Asia it is Possible! You don't have to live like a bum, be a skin flinnt or look like a destitute 1st world sailor.
> 
> As I said in an earlier post, You guys gotta a get out a bit......
> 
> I'll give you and update what the last three months have cost....for cruising in some of the best waters in the world.


Yes, I was certainly impressed at the 'affordability' of Thailand when I was there about 6 years ago, a cruiser's dollar can go a very long way where you are...

However, such cruising destinations appear to be somewhat the exception, rather than the rule, these days... Good luck getting the same bang for your buck in places like the Eastern Caribbean, most of N America, the Med/Baltic/all of Europe, just to name a few...


----------



## aeventyr60

JonEisberg said:


> Yes, I was certainly impressed at the 'affordability' of Thailand when I was there about 6 years ago, a cruiser's dollar can go a very long way where you are...
> 
> However, such cruising destinations appear to be somewhat the exception, rather than the rule, these days... Good luck getting the same bang for your buck in places like the Eastern Caribbean, most of N America, the Med/Baltic/all of Europe, just to name a few...


All good reason to skip the 1st world. Sumatra is looking good in a few weeks....


----------



## JonEisberg

Lou452 said:


> How many Mc'donald s are out in the world ? Everyone I have visited has free internet the Public library I am sure others can name more hot spots.


Hmmm, not many McD's in places like the Bahamas, for instance, last time I was there... 












Lou452 said:


> Still I think if you are out on less than $500 internet might not be worth it to your life style, Why would you need to hear what Bill Gates and Microsoft are doing or what Justin Beaver's latest stunt happens to be ? A game of Chess Or getting a fish on the line might mean more than a half hour on the PC. Your view of the world might be so totally different.
> Good Day, Lou


I think you're overlooking the utility and importance of internet access for many cruisers, today... Obtaining weather info, keeping in touch with family/aging parents, and so on... Oh, and ordering replacement parts for watermakers... 



Omatako said:


> The entire island of Rarotonga is covered by free wifi. Everywhere. No passwords no fees, no licences.
> 
> Out amongst the islands, the wifi is often government funded because many residents can't afford it. It is likely to expand.


Yes, that's the case in a place like Newfoundland, as well...

But in many more popular cruising destinations, it seems to be increasingly difficult to find free wifi... The Bahamas are a good example, I've found your best chances of doing so are in the more remote spots... Places where cruisers gather in droves, the Abacos, Georgetown/Exumas, etc seem to have gone almost exclusively to for profit subscription services, a free unsecured connection can be all but impossible to find...


----------



## aeventyr60

JonEisberg said:


> Hmmm, not many McD's in places like the Bahamas, for instance, last time I was there...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're overlooking the utility and importance of internet access for many cruisers, today... Obtaining weather info, keeping in touch with family/aging parents, and so on... Oh, and ordering replacement parts for watermakers...
> 
> Yes, that's the case in a place like Newfoundland, as well...
> 
> But in many more popular cruising destinations, it seems to be increasingly difficult to find free wifi... The Bahamas are a good example, I've found your best chances of doing so are in the more remote spots... Places where cruisers gather in droves, the Abacos, Georgetown/Exumas, etc seem to have gone almost exclusively to for profit subscription services, a free unsecured connection can be all but impossible to find...


Yep, too many cruisers trying to do it on 500 a month and ruining all the freebies.....I'll keep some secrets....you'll just have to go and find them.
Like the place that pulled my mast for 30 bucks and no hard stand charge....


----------



## sailordave

Didn't see a single one of those damn Mickey D's when I was in Cape Verde either! Was quite a welcome relief.

And of 16 (or is it 17?) countries I've been too, that was the hardest place I've been to use a US dollar. Most places they'll take it and give you change in the local currency even if it's not a great exchange rate. But it was almost impossible there w/o going to the bank to change to Escudo's. Fortunately others on the boat had plenty of Euros. That works.


----------



## christian.hess

ive been dying to go to cape verde for so long

we love cesarea evora....and listened to her all over the world on the spanish boat I was on

trully one of my next places on the list!


----------



## MikeOReilly

JonEisberg said:


> Yes, that's the case in a place like Newfoundland, as well...


Do you mean even the more remote NFLD outports have open wifi access Jon? Most of the island is remote and lightly populated. Kinda an amusing image to think about old-school newfie fisher folk sitting around the docks checking their iPhones .


----------



## sailordave

MikeOReilly said:


> Do you mean even the more remote NFLD outports have open wifi access Jon? Most of the island is remote and lightly populated. Kinda an amusing image to think about old-school newfie fisher folk sitting around the docks checking their iPhones .


Well I didn't have a Smartphone at the time, but I don't believe there was WiFi in Quirpon, NFLD 4 years ago when I was there. Didn't ask when I was at St. Anthony airport either. Maybe things have changed.

(BTW, I loved it!)


----------



## aeventyr60

MikeOReilly said:


> Do you mean even the more remote NFLD outports have open wifi access Jon? Most of the island is remote and lightly populated. Kinda an amusing image to think about old-school newfie fisher folk sitting around the docks checking their iPhones .


We were deep up a river in Borneo, anchored in front of a traditional long house community. Friendly folks involved in subsistence living activities. drank some great rice wine and showed them how I made beer on the boat, shared a few liters with them too.

Funniest thing was the young kids in tattered clothing checking out their facebook pages...all by wireless. Remote getting harder to find these days.


----------



## JonEisberg

MikeOReilly said:


> Do you mean even the more remote NFLD outports have open wifi access Jon? Most of the island is remote and lightly populated. Kinda an amusing image to think about old-school newfie fisher folk sitting around the docks checking their iPhones .


I seem to recall all of the populated settlements I visited along the south coast did, with the possible exception of Grand Bruit...










However, GB was in the process of becoming officially 'abandoned' by the government, the coastal steamer was no longer gonna be stopping there after the next year... A few residents might still return each summer, but they're on their own, and such towns are no longer supported by the Provincial government...

I wasn't always able to connect from the boat, in harbors like McCallum I had to get closer to the community center or library where the wifi signal originated... It's obviously not everywhere, yet, but at least along the south coast, it can generally be found if you need it...

Broadband Internet access | Live Rural Newfoundland & Labrador


----------



## mitchbrown

Here's a pretty good artical from yahoo that seems relevent to this thread

Why this millennial quit his 6-figure job and gave away most of his possessions - Yahoo Finance


----------



## Lou452

JohnEisberg and sailordave Thanks for the post. I am waiting for the snow to melt so I can get back to learning about sailing with a boat in the water. I did enjoy the ordering parts for the water maker :laugher 
I think you have a good point on weather and using navigation, e mail or Skype once you own a pc it is paid for. The PC has no monthly bill. Bills that occur every month will be hard to justify. 
I do not know much about AIS and I think gizmos no matter how nice will blow a budget. Cell phone , and such. What is needed ? 
Would the Bahamas be on this is far to expensive for
$500 a month ?I would have thought them to be a huge expense because so many talk about them.
Thanks to all , Lou


----------



## newhaul

I have prepaid cell and even with unlimited everything only fifty includes internet on phone and don't know initial cost of ais unit but once installed only expense would be what's spent to generate the power to recharge batteries they are available for 12 volt installations


----------



## tdw

I realise this will vary depending on where you sail but I'd much rather have a Chart plotter that is AIS enabled than Radar.


----------



## ccriders

Lou452 said:


> SVZepher44
> I feel a case can be made for low cost cruising and budgets but before one can do this they need a means to make it available. You would not have to have vast wealth but enough reserve or an escape path that will enable you to do so.
> Less face it if you are in poor position and income it will cost you more to live. This sounds like a wild statement but think it over. You will not be able to hold out for a deal you will have to pay the "interest" and the cost of being poor. Your choice options and time will be limited.


I think this is a very valid point to make. $6,000 a year is poverty. People get trapped in poverty, lose all of their financial resources and sink to subsistence living. If you want to go cruising and can only scrounge up $6,000 a year you need to carefully consider the ramifications before you quit the day job and sail off into the sunset. Clearly, after all has been posted here, there are many variables that will determine what will be your real costs. But, if you want to test the $500 a month theory, you need to have an emergency fund that will get you home and back in the workforce and do not use those funds to fix the boat or buy another month or so in paradise.
Over the last few years I have watched an acquaintance spend down his financial resources while cruising through life. When the handwriting was on the wall, he tried working, but only lasted a few weeks at McDonald's, lost his apartment, moved in with his aging parents, and now his car has failed. This is an intelligent person with a college degree, he just never adjusted to the world as we know it. He might have done better in a low cost area of the world, but I think the end would be the same. He is trapped in poverty and as a fifty-something will always be trapped.
My experience is that it is more expensive to maintain a first world life style in a third world country than in a first world country. Maybe living on a sailboat insulates you from some of those costs, but many are still there.
John


----------



## travlin-easy

Gotta agree with you on that Fuzzy - Radar is nice, but the AIS system can be a real live saver. However, I would rather have both 3G radar and AIS on the plotter. I came real close to smacking some offshore rigging one night, and almost nailed a huge stake net in Chesapeake Bay off Tilghman Island, one that wasn't on the charts and two miles from shore. Got my attention, and AIS would have provided no benefit at all.

As for the guy trapped in poverty, that's crapola as far as I'm concerned. At age 50, he either doesn't want to work, or he something wrong upstairs. There are loads of jobs out there that pay pretty darned well, and they frequently go wanting because no one seems to want to start at the bottom and work their way up these days. "Yeah, I'll take the job if you make me chairman of the board." seems to be today's attitude. He could drive a garbage truck and make $45,000 a year in most medium sized cities, plus a retirement and benefit plan. Bet if you asked if he would mind driving a garbage truck he would look at you like you had three heads.

Gary


----------



## newhaul

travlineasy said:


> Gotta agree with you on that Fuzzy - Radar is nice, but the AIS system can be a real live saver. However, I would rather have both 3G radar and AIS on the plotter. I came real close to smacking some offshore rigging one night, and almost nailed a huge stake net in Chesapeake Bay off Tilghman Island, one that wasn't on the charts and two miles from shore. Got my attention, and AIS would have provided no benefit at all.
> 
> As for the guy trapped in poverty, that's crapola as far as I'm concerned. At age 50, he either doesn't want to work, or he something wrong upstairs. There are loads of jobs out there that pay pretty darned well, and they frequently go wanting because no one seems to want to start at the bottom and work their way up these days. "Yeah, I'll take the job if you make me chairman of the board." seems to be today's attitude. He could drive a garbage truck and make $45,000 a year in most medium sized cities, plus a retirement and benefit plan. Bet if you asked if he would mind driving a garbage truck he would look at you like you had three heads.
> 
> Gary


That's true there are many opertunities as a base entry. The part that scares me is he couldn't make it a McDonalds that's really bad guys and as far as the garbage truck is concerned in the town I grew up in you actually need a college degree in sanitation engineering and a cdl just to apply.


----------



## Lou452

tdw said:


> I realise this will vary depending on where you sail but I'd much rather have a Chart plotter that is AIS enabled than Radar.


I think a lot of technical parts of sailing will change. Navigation and the decisions about what systems will be the safe and cost effective are going to be a challenge for me to budget. 
This would be a good place to go navigation on a budget  
Good day, Lou


----------



## aeventyr60

tdw said:


> I realise this will vary depending on where you sail but I'd much rather have a Chart plotter that is AIS enabled than Radar.


TDW-You'll think twice or more on this sailing through Indonesia.....


----------



## Lou452

aeventyr60 said:


> TDW-You'll think twice or more on this sailing through Indonesia.....


Ok expand on this. What size ship will have AIS ? What size craft is to small for radar ? They say sailboats will not show on radar without enhancement? What kind of collision is the most likely? 
I ask with no real experience so you will have to give both sides of the story. 
Thanks, Lou


----------



## Don L

A true $500/mo sailor doesn't have radar or AIS! If a $500/mo guy does have them then the $500/mo part is just a section of the total amount being spent and playing the "it depends" game of cruise budgeting.


----------



## svzephyr44

Lou452 said:


> Ok expand on this. What size ship will have AIS ? What size craft is to small for radar ? They say sailboats will not show on radar without enhancement? What kind of collision is the most likely?
> I ask with no real experience so you will have to give both sides of the story.
> Thanks, Lou


I said I would not post again on this thread. I recant only to provide information on AIS.

Who has to carry: Automatic Identification Systems (AIS)

1. In general big ships. In Singapore everyone by law - something that is likely to become more prevalent in very crowded maritime areas. One of the exemptions - fishing boats - sometimes a problem when making coastwise passages. Fishing boats tend to be brightly lit so they are pretty easy to see unless the weather is bad. I think that you will see the rest of the major maritime world moving toward the Singapore rule - you must have a transmit type AIS to cruise in their waters. This will be led by the harbors that already require all ships to report in when entering and leaving port (VTS Systems - see here: 




2. Sailboats are hard to see on most radars - including both commercial and recreational radars. If you call another vessel on the VHF they can usually figure out where you are but are not likely to see you on the radar before you call. The bridge watches are not staring at the radar and the alarms typically will not be set to go off for a return that small. Radar reflectors help a little, but not all that much. One thing that surprised me: back in the days of paper charts if you gave a ship your lat and long they could pretty much pinpoint your location in a couple of seconds. Now with the glass bridges it seems to take a lot longer. I am not sure exactly why this is true.

3. What kind of collision is most likely? The one where you are not in the cockpit looking around to see who can hit you. Even with an AIS transmitter you are not complexly safe from large ships. I have been run down twice, once by a cargo ship, once by a Carnival Cruise Liner. In both cases my AIS was blipping away. CCL Captains have a very bad reputation in the shipping world. They seem to think that the rules of the road are they go where they want and everyone else gets out of the way.  (actually I have been run down three times - in the pre-AIS days I was hit by a "laker" off Alpina in bad rain and fog. Did a mess to the bow of the boat but we stayed afloat and made it into a safe harbor.)

Fog banks can be deadly. I was approaching the Blue Water bridge at the foot of Lake Huron. There was a big fog bank under the bridge. The rest of Lake Huron was clear as a bell. My radar painted a huge target - I thought the bridge of course. All of a sudden a huge laker (they look even bigger from 100 feet looking up at the bow coming right at you!) came out of the fog bank heading directly at me. Five shorts on my pathetic little horn, right emergency rudder, all ahead flank, I got out of the way (barely.) They never saw me until I was abaft the wheelhouse tooting my little horn. Then they hit their fog horn. Darn near blew me out of the water! (I guess this counts for run down #4) They never slowed or turned. Would not have mattered anyway unless they needed to pick up the pieces. They just can't maneuver that quickly. (This was, btw, in my pre-AIS days.) Another minute and I was out of the fog in the St. Clair river.

Slightly off topic but your deck navigation lights on a typical sailboat are not worth much either. Offshore your lights tend to be obscured by wave action. The exception is a tricolor. Most commercial ships are illuminated at night. They are pretty easy to see. The exception is ships carrying explosive material such as oil. They usually have a minimum of lights visible - just the required navigation lights. I always wondered how the bridge watch on a brightly lit ship could see at night. We could track ships visually 10 NM away. We would chat with the bridge crew and they would know where we were (we have transmit AIS) but could not see us visually unless they got less than 1 NM away. That is why I now have a tricolor 60 feet up on top of the mast. In general on the open ocean 1 NM was the courtesy separation - large ships would alter course to give us a CPA of 1 NM or more. An aside: When I first started cruising I was confused by the side lights on big ships. In the recreational world the "bow lights" are the red and green lights located near the bow. But the COLREGS require side lights, not "bow lights." Most commercial ships have the side lights on the house in the stern. I was looking at a colored light thinking I was looking at the bow when in fact I was looking at the stern. Everyone seemed to be steaming in reverse...






Should you cruise in US waters (elsewhere in the world too, my experience is off Norfolk) in places like VACAPES you will discover that United States Navy ships don't transmit on AIS. And they don't show up on radar. And they don't have a lot of lights on. In fact you will swear they are not there until your radio crackles and they talk to you!! Even then you will swear they are not there. And they only talk to you if they want you to do something. Otherwise they just ghost by. A good thing from a combat standpoint, a little scary when sailing. The military operating areas are marked on the charts but they do have to get to them and get back home.


----------



## aeventyr60

Lou452 said:


> Ok expand on this. What size ship will have AIS ? What size craft is to small for radar ? They say sailboats will not show on radar without enhancement? What kind of collision is the most likely?
> I ask with no real experience so you will have to give both sides of the story.
> Thanks, Lou


Ok, so it's around 5 PM local time in Indo waters, maybe doing your before dark checks, scanning the horizon, etc, maybe putting in a reef, having a bite to eat, scannng the horizon 360 degrees with the MKII eyeball, AIS, etc, Noting to be seen, great, nice night ahead. About an hour later it's dark...Then...WOW...as far as your eye can see are lights...dim, kinda dim. maybe bright, white, yellow, green, red, blue, flashing occulting, every kind of flicker...what's this? geez, it's a zillion small craft, bobbing in the swell fishing, not a proper nav light in the mix...jeez, talk about a terrorist activity...no rhyme or reason to direction, some boats with no lights, they flick a Bic lighter as you go by...we shine the zillion power light on the sails to increase our visibility...so yeah, not a fun night...and this occured on many nights. Radar helped, AIS was worthless here. MKII eyeball price less!


----------



## aeventyr60

svzephyr44 said:


> I said I would not post again on this thread. I recant only to provide information on AIS.
> 
> Who has to carry: Automatic Identification Systems (AIS)
> 
> 1. In general big ships. In Singapore everyone by law - something that is likely to become more prevalent in very crowded maritime areas. One of the exemptions - fishing boats - sometimes a problem when making coastwise passages. Fishing boats tend to be brightly lit so they are pretty easy to see unless the weather is bad. I think that you will see the rest of the major maritime world moving toward the Singapore rule - you must have a transmit type AIS to cruise in their waters. This will be led by the harbors that already require all ships to report in when entering and leaving port (VTS Systems - see here: Vessel traffic service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 2. Sailboats are hard to see on most radars - including both commercial and recreational radars. If you call another vessel on the VHF they can usually figure out where you are but are not likely to see you on the radar before you call. The bridge watches are not staring at the radar and the alarms typically will not be set to go off for a return that small. Radar reflectors help a little, but not all that much. One thing that surprised me: back in the days of paper charts if you gave a ship your lat and long they could pretty much pinpoint your location in a couple of seconds. Now with the glass bridges it seems to take a lot longer. I am not sure exactly why this is true.
> 
> 3. What kind of collision is most likely? The one where you are not in the cockpit looking around to see who can hit you. Even with an AIS transmitter you are not complexly safe from large ships. I have been run down twice, once by a cargo ship, once by a Carnival Cruise Liner. In both cases my AIS was blipping away. CCL Captains have a very bad reputation in the shipping world. They seem to think that the rules of the road are they go where they want and everyone else gets out of the way.  (actually I have been run down three times - in the pre-AIS days I was hit by a "laker" off Alpina in bad rain and fog. Did a mess to the bow of the boat but we stayed afloat and made it into a safe harbor.)
> 
> Fog banks can be deadly. I was approaching the Blue Water bridge at the foot of Lake Huron. There was a big fog bank under the bridge. The rest of Lake Huron was clear as a bell. My radar painted a huge target - I thought the bridge of course. All of a sudden a huge laker (they look even bigger from 100 feet looking up at the bow coming right at you!) came out of the fog bank heading directly at me. Five shorts on my pathetic little horn, right emergency rudder, all ahead flank, I got out of the way (barely.) They never saw me until I was abaft the wheelhouse tooting my little horn. Then they hit their fog horn. Darn near blew me out of the water! (I guess this counts for run down #4) They never slowed or turned. Would not have mattered anyway unless they needed to pick up the pieces. They just can't maneuver that quickly. (This was, btw, in my pre-AIS days.) Another minute and I was out of the fog in the St. Clair river.
> 
> Slightly off topic but your deck navigation lights on a typical sailboat are not worth much either. Offshore your lights tend to be obscured by wave action. The exception is a tricolor. Most commercial ships are illuminated at night. They are pretty easy to see. The exception is ships carrying explosive material such as oil. They usually have a minimum of lights visible - just the required navigation lights. I always wondered how the bridge watch on a brightly lit ship could see at night. We could track ships visually 10 NM away. We would chat with the bridge crew and they would know where we were (we have transmit AIS) but could not see us visually unless they got less than 1 NM away. That is why I now have a tricolor 60 feet up on top of the mast. In general on the open ocean 1 NM was the courtesy separation - large ships would alter course to give us a CPA of 1 NM or more. An aside: When I first started cruising I was confused by the side lights on big ships. In the recreational world the "bow lights" are the red and green lights located near the bow. But the COLREGS require side lights, not "bow lights." Most commercial ships have the side lights on the house in the stern. I was looking at a colored light thinking I was looking at the bow when in fact I was looking at the stern. Everyone seemed to be steaming in reverse...
> 
> Should you cruise in US waters (elsewhere in the world too, my experience is off Norfolk) in places like VACAPES you will discover that United States Navy ships don't transmit on AIS. And they don't show up on radar. And they don't have a lot of lights on. In fact you will swear they are not there until your radio crackles and they talk to you!! Even then you will swear they are not there. And they only talk to you if they want you to do something. Otherwise they just ghost by. A good thing from a combat standpoint, a little scary when sailing. The military operating areas are marked on the charts but they do have to get to them and get back home.


Good info. However, Singapore waters are really small. We sail just outside the Singapore Harbor limits and most often test the line, Patrol boats every kilometer or so, keep all transgressors out. AIS not required for us to Enter either. The Mallaca strait and Singapore Straitts s have a VTS-Vessel Traffic sepration zone, so all the big boys keep to the lanes...however, out of Port Klang (Malaysia water) Tugs with tows and no lights seem to operate with impunity and without AIS. Most of the trawlers, squid boats and other fishing boats/craft don't use it either. This we found to be the case in Thailand, Malaysia, Borneo and the Philippines. So, a lot of work here to do in getting AIS adopted by the Maritime/fishing industry. Proper watch ON Deck still the best way to stay out of trouble. Sharpen up those MKII eyeballs....


----------



## svzephyr44

newhaul said:


> Don't know initial cost of ais unit but once installed only expense would be what's spent to generate the power to recharge batteries they are available for 12 volt installations


VHF Radio with AIS (receive only with built in display) about cheapest $250 US

AIS transmit/receive transponder cheapest $550 US. Requires an antenna (can share with your VHF antenna) and a display. Baseline cheap laptop maybe $400 US, baseline chart plotter maybe $1,000 US.
AIS units do transmit frequently so they do provide a load for the batteries but the load is inconsequential compared to the load from a laptop or chart plotter.

I expect that someone will come out with an integrated transmit/receive AIS in the very near future. I expect they already exist and are only waiting on FCC approval.


----------



## svzephyr44

aeventyr60 said:


> Good info. However, Singapore waters are really small. We sail just outside the Singapore Harbor limits and most often test the line, Patrol boats every kilometer or so, keep all transgressors out. AIS not required for us to Enter either. The Mallaca strait and Singapore Straitts s have a VTS-Vessel Traffic sepration zone, so all the big boys keep to the lanes...however, out of Port Klang (Malaysia water) Tugs with tows and no lights seem to operate with impunity and without AIS. Most of the trawlers, squid boats and other fishing boats/craft don't use it either. This we found to be the case in Thailand, Malaysia, Borneo and the Philippines. So, a lot of work here to do in getting AIS adopted by the Maritime/fishing industry. Proper watch ON Deck still the best way to stay out of trouble. Sharpen up those MKII eyeballs....


It is an old story. Get fancy electronics. Depend on fancy electronics. Don't realize that fancy electronics have limitations. One major limitation: not everyone has fancy electronics.

My major objective is to stay alive. I think having a transmit AIS helps. Is it a panacea? Heck no. Do I feel I have better information as a result? Heck yes. Is it enough? No. That is why I am in great desire of the release of the MK III eyeball. In the meantime I try to get young pups to crew in crowded areas. They seem to be able to see much better than this old salt.


----------



## newhaul

Don0190 said:


> A true $500/mo sailor doesn't have radar or AIS! If a $500/mo guy does have them then the $500/mo part is just a section of the total amount being spent and playing the "it depends" game of cruise budgeting.


Not really out of budget the initial cost is well under a grand and there are units that slave to the vhf for as low as two hundred bucks for receive only and both ways under 600 so save ten bucks a month for less than a year ( that's a pack and a half of smokes here) and you got your ais .


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## MikeOReilly

On the question of AIS, I offer this personal observation. I live overlooking a rather busy shipping port here in Thunder Bay. We see all manner of cargo ships, from pure lakers to ocean salties, as well as lots of service (tugs, CG, SAR, etc.) and plenty of recreational and commercial shipping. 

From land I can see much of this traffic go by, and often go to online AIS services to check the vessels out. None of the fishing vessels ever turn up. Most of the time the service vessels show up, but not always. But even more interesting, I'd say that ~2% of the big ships show no AIS signal -- at least not one that is available to me.

I've not conducted a formal study here, and perhaps there are other issues I'm unaware of going on, but from my observations I would never solely rely on AIS for collision avoidance. Personally, if I had to choose only one, I would go with RADAR. At least with RADAR things are within your control as to what you can see. AIS depends on someone else doing the right thing. 

Of course, the best answer is to have both, and rely on neither .


----------



## christian.hess

AIS is for 1st world heavy traffic *shipping* lanes

absolutely 100 percent useless for any cruiser who wants to go island hopping and discover places that are still "unknown" were this stuff doesnt exist

dangers to cruisers are mostly unlit fishing pangas and small industrial type fishing boats like shrimpers, longliners, debris, floating crap...etc...

nets, buoys, unmaned or abandoned lines, etc...

all of which dont have a nice control pod shooting a nice ais signal

for example down here ais would not be useful....

my half cent


----------



## JonEisberg

MikeOReilly said:


> From land I can see much of this traffic go by, and often go to online AIS services to check the vessels out. None of the fishing vessels ever turn up. Most of the time the service vessels show up, but not always. But even more interesting, I'd say that ~2% of the big ships show no AIS signal -- at least not one that is available to me.


Online AIS reporting services are not necessarily an accurate or reliable indication of who is transmitting AIS, and who is not... I've been in ports with a fair amount of commercial traffic, and there can be considerable discrepancies between what vessels show up on my onboard AIS, and which are being reported on an online site...

Some folks out there appear to believe that a smartphone with an AIS reporting app is an inexpensive 'substitute' for AIS... While such information is better than nothing, perhaps, little of the online AIS information is in real time, and treating this sort of information as the equivalent of having an AIS receiver aboard can be a very poor, and dangerous, practice...

From MarineTraffic's User Agreement:

_" Reliance upon AIS Data

The User acknowledges and agrees that the AIS Data provided by MarineTraffic may be inaccurate or incomplete and are subject to error, delay or change. Reliance upon or use of such AIS Data shall be at User's risk. "_


----------



## Don L

newhaul said:


> Not really out of budget the initial cost is well under a grand and there are units that slave to the vhf for as low as two hundred bucks for receive only and both ways under 600 so save ten bucks a month for less than a year ( that's a pack and a half of smokes here) and you got your ais .


It is such a BS statement to say that for someone on $500/mo that it is reasonable for them to be able to drop $600 on an unneeded system.Trying make it sound like it is affordable for them is crap.


----------



## smackdaddy

Don0190 said:


> It is such a BS statement to say that for someone on $500/mo that it is reasonable for them to be able to drop $600 on an unneeded system.Trying make it sound like it is affordable for them is crap.


Actually, I've found that if you're not willing and able to drop a grand at pretty much any time - you're probably not ready for boat ownership. At least not a boat that you're using all the time or living aboard.

Anyway, I just put in an AIS system on my boat. I'm doing a write-up on it now. Stay tuned.


----------



## guitarguy56

I don't have an AIS on my boat... would these two units fulfill the need to sail in heavy traffic?

Chartplotter:

HDS-5m Gen2 - LOWRANCE | Marine Electronics

AIS/VHF unit:

Link-8 DSC/ VHF Marine Radio - LOWRANCE | Marine Electronics

They seem pretty inexpensive...


----------



## Don L

smackdaddy said:


> Actually, I've found that if you're not willing and able to drop a grand at pretty much any time - you're probably not ready for boat ownership. At least not a boat that you're using all the time or living aboard.


Exactly, which means that this whole cruise on $500/mo is pretty much crap.

Hell seems there are lots of people who don't I will be able to do it on $3000/mo.

Would be better to have named the thread "ways to reduce cruising costs" as that is doable.


----------



## christian.hess

this thread is NOT crap and 500 a month* is* doable

its blind people who simply dont want to hear it that say its not doable

with regards to the drop a boat buck on a dime meaning you are able or not be an boat onwer is crap too

with all due respect folks this is wrong and completely innacurate

I did it, know plenty cruisers who do not use 500 a month, some less, and even in magazines like latitude38 you hear of people cruising on LESS

like the young mid 30s couple who bought a columbia 34 in sandiego and set off for polynesia and made it

didnt even change rigging cause it was new and oversize...they bought the boat for 2k or something and you dont see them whinning on sailnet or elswehere but thankin the heavens for being so fortunate and POSITIVE thinkers

the* bs* is the one sidedness and absolute blindness that folks have regarding what THEY think is doable or not.

experience more, complain less


----------



## svzephyr44

guitarguy56 said:


> I don't have an AIS on my boat... would these two units fulfill the need to sail in heavy traffic?
> 
> Chartplotter:
> 
> HDS-5m Gen2 - LOWRANCE | Marine Electronics
> 
> AIS/VHF unit:
> 
> Link-8 DSC/ VHF Marine Radio - LOWRANCE | Marine Electronics
> 
> They seem pretty inexpensive...


It is not going to get you transmit - in my humble opinion the most important feature. But a quick scan says yes it will work.


----------



## MikeOReilly

JonEisberg said:


> Online AIS reporting services are not necessarily an accurate or reliable indication of who is transmitting AIS, and who is not... I've been in ports with a fair amount of commercial traffic, and there can be considerable discrepancies between what vessels show up on my onboard AIS, and which are being reported on an online site...


Yes, I agree Jon. This is why I specified where I was getting the info. But I have no way of knowing if what I'm observing is due to this technological disconnect or due to an absolute lack of AIS signal. And yes, I would never try and rely on an Internet AIS service. No way...

I'm always inclined to get real live data as opposed to secondary or tertiary information. I trust my eyes more than my depth sounder, which I trust more than my chartplotter. RADAR is data I can directly measure. AIS is at least two steps removed from my control, which lowers my confidence in it.

As I said, personally I would choose to have both if I could. But in the hypothetical _either-or_ discussion, if I could only pick one, I'd choose RADAR.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Don0190 said:


> Exactly, which means that this whole cruise on $500/mo is pretty much crap.


Don, since your only purpose for posting here seems to be to take a piss, can I make the same request you did when you started your $3,000/month thread (a request I have honoured):



Don0190 said:


> If you are in the cruise for $500/mo group this isn't a thread for you. ...


To echo your words, if you are in the $3,000+/month group, this thread is not for you.


----------



## guitarguy56

svzephyr44 said:


> It is not going to get you transmit - in my humble opinion the most important feature. But a quick scan says yes it will work.


So I need to install a transponder to transmit my location to others?

Similar to this...

Lowrance NAIS-400 Class B AIS System - LOWRANCE | Marine Electronics

That would be close to $1500 total for the AIS radio, chartplotter, transponder... it's pricey but doable... if crusing in heavy traffic... I think being on watch in heavy traffic might be prudent though...


----------



## Don L

I'm waiting for you guys crying about those of us saying that cruising on $500/mo can not be done to post a break down of your costs and provide some links etc for others that have done it. Posting that you spending that much living in nowhereville doesn't do it (that isn't cruising). Since there are places that have a average wage of $500/mo it is of course possible.

I can easily come up with links to people cruising where they aren't anywhere near $500/mo yet are cruising on the pretty cheap.

So I'm waiting for you to just prove it instead of trying to convince others that they can do so they end up stranded somewhere.

Meanwhile if you want to post suggestions for reducing costs I'm all for that.


----------



## newhaul

Don0190 said:


> Exactly, which means that this whole cruise on $500/mo is pretty much crap.
> 
> Hell seems there are lots of people who don't I will be able to do it on $3000/mo.
> 
> Would be better to have named the thread "ways to reduce cruising costs" as that is doable.


Don I have and I'm sure others have noticed you don't contribute to the discussion why is that do you like being the devils advocate I voyage on less than you probably spend on your truck payment I'm not knocking you but would be nice to see at least one thread positive post from you I was raised by parents that lived the depression I was taught to save till you could afford it then buy a minor sacrifice here or there ads up quick I carry a thermos of coffee from home costs at most $.50 to make it vice the 5+ per cup at the Starbucks so in essence I save ten a day just on coffee. Where could you comfortably cut back and save even two bucks a day that's $60 a month towards new gadget that two a day is 720 a year saved to do haul and paint of hull if you need to if you don't need it it becomes the rainny day fund. Just make on things


----------



## Don L

newhaul said:


> Don I have and I'm sure others have noticed you don't contribute to the discussion why is that do you like being the devils advocate I voyage on less than you probably spend on your truck payment I'm not knocking you but would be nice to see at least one thread positive post from you I was raised by parents that lived the depression I was taught to save till you could afford it then buy a minor sacrifice here or there ads up quick I carry a thermos of coffee from home costs at most $.50 to make it vice the 5+ per cup at the Starbucks so in essence I save ten a day just on coffee. Where could you comfortably cut back and save even two bucks a day that's $60 a month towards new gadget that two a day is 720 a year saved to do haul and paint of hull if you need to if you don't need it it becomes the rainny day fund. Just make on things


I don't have a truck payment.

I grew up in a house with dirt grounds where a fancy dinner was pancakes and if there was some sugar to put on them it was really special. You don't know crap and to suggest that someone on $500/mo can just cut back to save and justify spending $600 on a fancy electronic toy is crap! You aren't saving anything taking your coffee in the themos, you just aren't wasting money you can not afford and saying those on a tight budget are going to Starbucks is insulting.

Post you "voyaging" cost breakdown by category to provide something useful.


----------



## svzephyr44

guitarguy56 said:


> So I need to install a transponder to transmit my location to others?
> 
> Similar to this...
> 
> Lowrance NAIS-400 Class B AIS System - LOWRANCE | Marine Electronics
> 
> That would be close to $1500 total for the AIS radio, chartplotter, transponder... it's pricey but doable... if crusing in heavy traffic... I think being on watch in heavy traffic might be prudent though...


I guess that like the cost of cruising "it depends." Mostly it depends on where you cruise. As pointed out there are areas where AIS is of very limited use - primary because few other boats are equipped. In those areas where there is high usage a receive only unit can help you scope out what is going on - helpful when approaching ports like New York or Miami or transiting areas with a lot of ship traffic like the Delaware Bay. As I pointed out in my previous post my experience is that larger ships have difficulty figuring out exactly where you are from a Lat/Long. I doubt they calculate CPA and time to CPA. The advantage of a transmit AIS is that their chart plotter gives them all of that information. It also gives them the name of your vessel so they don't have to call the boat at "approximately Lat/Long whatever."

With a receive only AIS you know that other ships are out there, their name, course, speed, CPA and time to CPA. This helps the Mark II eyeball locate them. With a transmit AIS they know you are there and they have the same information about you. It makes communication easier.

If you have a reasonably reliable full time watch in the cockpit or you are operating where there are not many AIS equipped ships one might take a pass. Or choose to invest in something else.

Risking the ire of newhaul and MikeORilley et al let me point out two items:

1. You used the term _prudent._ What is _prudent_ for some may be overkill/inadequate for others - depending on budget, cruising style, cruising location, appetite for risk, etc. I am fortunate that I had enough money before I retired to have a pretty complete electronics suite - not everyone needs one or desires to own one. Over the course of some 15,000+ NM of cruising I have been relieved at some time that I had each element of the system on board. Did I need radar in the Caribbean? No. Did I need it in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland? Yes. My AIS came in handy when crossing the shipping lanes on my approach to Portugal. Watching 25 ships alter their course to give me 1 NM CPA was a great relief. I was coming off 8 days of 24/7 single handing in the Atlantic Ocean and I was tired. It was nice to not have to call each ship and say "do you see me?"

2. If you look at modern marine electronics the core of any system is the chart plotter - now properly renamed a "multi-function" display. Most modern multi-function displays are not only the core unit but the most expensive single item in the budget. Once you have the multi-function display the peripherals are less expensive e.g.
Transmit/Receive AIS $500
Radar $900
Depth Sounder - a transducer alone maybe $150
and so on.

Usually integration will cost a bit more - my VHF radio integrates with my multi-function display. It lets me push a button to call a ship that is displayed as an AIS target. Is it necessary? No. Is it kind of cool? Yes. I think the added integration cost was about $50.

For those on a limited budget - and we all are, our budgets just vary - the order and need for various electronic devices varies a great deal. The single most important instrument on my boat when I crossed the Atlantic was an MF/HF radio (OK, after the GPS.) I could get weather, report my position on a daily basis, and chat - important when you are at sea for 15 or 20 days alone. Useful in the ICW? Not at all.

We could assist you in your purchasing plans a bit better if you told us a bit more about how you intend to use your boat. 

Fair winds and following seas.


----------



## newhaul

Don0190 said:


> I'm waiting for you guys crying about those of us saying that cruising on $500/mo can not be done to post a break down of your costs and provide some links etc for others that have down it. Posting that you spending that much living in nowhereville doesn't do it.
> 
> Meanwhile if you want to post suggestions for reducing costs I'm all for that.


I have posted my monthly expenses in this thread many pages back and sorry don't have links to others doing it. 
As far as a good way to cut costs I have posted that as well. My cell phone service with at&t post paid they want just over 80 bucks a month plus taxes for unlimited talk text and two gigs data. They want 50 per month prepaid and no taxes if you add the funds at the at&t store. That equals a cost savings of at least 30 bucks per month or 360 a year and I haven't noticed any reduction in service.


----------



## newhaul

Don0190 said:


> I don't have a truck payment.
> 
> I grew up in a house with dirt grounds where a fancy dinner was pancakes and if there was some sugar to put on them it was really special. You don't know crap and to suggest that someone on $500/mo can just cut back to save and justify spending $600 on a fancy electronic toy is crap! You aren't saving anything taking your coffee in the themos, you just aren't wasting money you can not afford and saying those on a tight budget are going to Starbucks is insulting.
> 
> Post you "voyaging" cost breakdown by category to provide something useful.


I did not mean to offend you I was using Starbucks as an example for my own spending I used to do the Starbucks thing daily. As far as the dirt poor bit I did t say anything about that I actually remember living for a year happily mind you in a cabin on american lake that we rented for a dollar a year under the condition we did maintance heat was wood cook stove water was well pump out front and in the kitchen at the sink lights were kero and a lot of times dinner was cat fish or crawdads what ever I caught that day. Thats all fine and good but not what this thread is about I think that barefoot started this thread as a way to exchange ideas for reducing costs and footprints just named it the way he did for simplicity sake.


----------



## Don L

newhaul said:


> I have posted my monthly expenses in this thread many pages back and sorry don't have links to others doing it.


Well post it again as I couldn't find it. Please include the categories of:

food
sundries (things buy at the store but don't eat)
clothing
insurance
utilities (fuel, propane, water, phone,TV)
marina slip, moorings, and boat storage costs
boat upkeep and maintenance
boat upgrades (if you do any)
boat insurance
health insurance
entertainment
eating out (if you ever do)
permits and fees

And if you haven't dome any worth while boat maintenance tell us the last time you did or how much you are budgeting (saving per month) for the below ( Since it has cost me $3500/yr the past 5 years just to operate and maintain my boat, doing all the labor myself):

boat haul out and bottom paint
rigging
sails
engine maintenance

I wait for your answers as I'm sure others do.


----------



## newhaul

Don0190 said:


> Well post it again as I couldn't find it. Please include the categories of:
> 
> food
> sundries (things buy at the store but don't eat)
> clothing
> insurance
> utilities (fuel, propane, water, phone,TV)
> marina slip, moorings, and boat storage costs
> boat upkeep and maintenance
> boat upgrades (if you do any)
> boat insurance
> health insurance
> entertainment
> eating out (if you ever do)
> permits and fees
> 
> And if you haven't dome any worth while boat maintenance tell us the last time you did or how much you are budgeting (saving per month) for the below ( Since it has cost me $3500/yr the past 5 years just to operate and maintain my boat, doing all the labor myself):
> 
> boat haul out and bottom paint
> rigging
> sails
> engine maintenance
> 
> I wait for your answers as I'm sure others do.


Not a problem it will just take me a day or so to put the whole list back together I will begin with this my maintance was under fourty bucks last year that included beaching and cleaning my own hull at a cost of under five bucks for the plastic ice scrapers to do the job also the hull has never had bottom paint on it so I don't feel I need to paint it now new gear oil in my lower unit on outboard and new impeller for same. The sails are still serviceable so no need to do anything there yet. I'm retired with shipwright background so do own maintance. My marina fees for a full year are just under 2600 including power and free WiFi I splurged and got a 75 dollar next book tablet. I have a prepaid cell phone I'm on a dollar a day calling plan make about ten calls a month also pay 20 each month for unlimited text messaging so at looks like about thirty a month for my phone I'm a vet so free medical insurance thru the va. That's a start I will post more later would you do the us the same courtesy. By posting some of your specific expenses also what make of boat do you own your profile just says 2001 43 ft boat . I almost forgot I used about five gallons of fuel in my outboard and ten gal in my stove so fifteen gallons gasoline at $3.20 a gallon just under 50 bucks for the year.


----------



## travlin-easy

This is a pretty neat list:


food - varies significantly, averaged $40 a week - $160 month unless I was fishing. Under those circumstances, the food bill fell to $30 a week - $120 a month.

sundries (things buy at the store but don't eat) Shampoo, tooth paste, dish detergent, laundry soap. - Less than $10 per month

clothing - Guys don't buy clothing - women buy clothing. I have shirts older than my kids and underwear older than that.

insurance - Medicare plus a $58 per month supplemental policy with high deductable.

utilities (fuel, propane, water, phone,TV) - fuel for the boat varies a lot, depending on wind and weather. Gas for the boat could be $60 a day when motoring down the ICW. A 20-pound propane bottle lasted me for six months - cost $32 to fill. Water was free most of the time, but could be as much as .05 cents a gallon in the keys. Telephone is .10 cents a minute - paid in advance. TV and Internet access were both free.

marina slip, moorings, and boat storage costs - This is a huge variable. On the hook = free! 

boat upkeep and maintenance - Bottom cleaning was $2 per foot in the keys = $66. Had it done twice in 6 months.

boat upgrades (if you do any) Spent $700 for a full enclosure - that was it for six months.
boat insurance - under $500 a year.

health insurance - see above - I'm old so it's medicare plus a supplemental.

entertainment - I get paid to entertain folks, most nights made just over $200 in tips.

eating out (if you ever do) - varies significantly, depending on the restaurant. I rarely do this because I can cook better than most of the restaurants I've been to.

permits and fees - boat registration is $24 a year - $2 a month. No other fees involved.

Pump-outs = $5 week, depending on the marina. Some were free.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Don L

newhaul said:


> That's a start I will post more later would you do the us the same courtesy. By posting some of your specific expenses also what make of boat do you own your profile just says 2001 43 ft boat .


Sure! I'm not cruising so don't have any numbers for general living. But I keep track what the boat costs me to use and maintain (would post the spreadsheet if I could figure out how to attach an Excel file). For 2013 (was a little lower that the past few years) I spend the following to have my boat:

Operation and general (insurance, fuel, permits) - $1629
maintenance and repair - $1978
Storage and marina (winter storage, summer mooring, transit moorings) - $5145
Upgrades - $1871
Total - $10,217


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## Don L

travlineasy said:


> This is a pretty neat list:
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


I gave up trying to add this up to a yearly or monthly number. Could provide a yearly amount and average it to monthly for us?


----------



## newhaul

Don0190 said:


> Sure! I'm not cruising so don't have any numbers for general living. But I keep track what the boat costs me to use and maintain (would post the spreadsheet if I could figure out how to attach an Excel file). For 2013 (was a little lower that the past few years) I spend the following to have my boat:
> 
> Operation and general (insurance, fuel, permits) - $1629
> maintenance and repair - $1978
> Storage and marina (winter storage, summer mooring, transit moorings) - $5145
> Upgrades - $1871
> Total - $10,217


Ten k a year that's about quadruple my annual cost I forgot a hundred for years insurance and 24 for license tags. That really shows that the cost goes up exponentially with any size increase. Still don't know what you sail beyond its twenty feet longer than me


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## tdw

Whoaaaaaa Neddie !!

This is not some kind of pissing competition peoples. Now I'm on record as saying that I couldn't cruise on USD$500pm but that does not mean that others couldn't or that others might like to try. There is no sin in trying.

So please ... this thread is about the pros and cons of $500pm cruising and whether or not it is possible in this day and age. It is not a stage to slag those who want to have a go, or are at least interested enough to discuss the matter.


----------



## travlin-easy

If I take the boat's fuel cost out of the equation and eliminate the enclosure, it works out to 326 a month. 

The big killer is fuel expenses. Depending on the weather and the area you are operating, it can be a little, or a bunch. I had weeks when I blew $500 through the exhaust pipe.

Maintenance is fairly inexpensive if you do the work yourself. I might use a case of motor oil a year, 8 spark plugs, and a $25 water pump impeller. The belts on the engine are five years old and still show no sign of wear, but I do carry spares to be safe.

When I had to stay in a marina, the cost of transient dockage varied from $1 to $2 per foot per night, sometimes including electric, sometimes an extra $10 for electricity. On my next trip, I hope not to have to stay in a marina at all. I will have a generator for firing up my heat pump and spend most of my time on the hook. When I performed at some of the marina restaurants and tiki bars, I was provided free slip for the night, and of course, I got paid to boot. Nice work when you can get it!

The best deal was when I was on the hook and the fishing action was top notch. I easily caught dinner for several nights in just a few hours. Shimp, snapper, perch, striped bass, bluefish, etc... That really takes a big bite out of the food expenses.

Unfortunately, I enjoy a cold beer and a Margaretta every day. Booze is expensive!

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## Don L

newhaul said:


> Ten k a year that's about quadruple my annual cost I forgot a hundred for years insurance and 24 for license tags. That really shows that the cost goes up exponentially with any size increase. Still don't know what you sail beyond its twenty feet longer than me


Well I fix things when they break. Size isn't that much more expensive. If I had a 30' boat and fixed the same things this year I figure it would have saved around $1500 maybe (mostly on the haulout and storage charge). So I still don't see how people are cruising on $500/mo and am waiting a cost breakdown. I have put a LOT of time and effect into researching the costs of cruising and I'm just telling you what it looks like based on that.

BTW - if those of you who have a true cost breakdown and want to post it on the $3000/mo thread to show you do it, go ahead. If enough people could PROVE it could be done on less I would love it as I could show it to my wife and go sooner!


----------



## tdw

aeventyr60 said:


> TDW-You'll think twice or more on this sailing through Indonesia.....


I think that's the sort of comment I was hoping for Aev. My comment was based on my own experience but as I said it may well depend on where you sail.

The only time I've been in a zero (effectively) visibility situation I found AIS more useful than Radar and at other times in reduced visibility the same.

Question for you .... how well do those small fishing boats stand out on Radar screen ? are they predominantly timber or is metal more prevalent these days.


----------



## travlin-easy

Fuzzy, on the 3G and 4G radar systems they jump out at you. I was amazed at what you could see over a conventional radar system, and how well it could distinguish between two objects close together and objects very close to your boat. It's a pretty amazing system. The cost of both an AIS and 3G radar system combined to connect with my Lowrance HDS7 would be about $2,000 USD.

Gary


----------



## Don L

tdw said:


> Question for you .... how well do those small fishing boats stand out on Radar screen ? are they predominantly timber or is metal more prevalent these days.


This is off topic, but based on my experience wooden lobster boats didn't show up at all and if it hadn't been for their engine noise I would have cut them in half. But I could see lobster buoys that had small reflectors on them.


----------



## barefootnavigator

I wish I could give you a break down but my budgets just not that sophisticated. The problem with using other peoples beak downs is that they wont work for you. I'm a decent golfer but no matter how many times I read Tiger Woods book I will never golf like him His system is his and only works for him. I will add that simplicity will set you free The most complex system on my boat is my galley sink. I see so many 10 year plans here, it takes that long to save for boat insurance and health insurance. If you go now with the boat you have you can skip both of those huge budget busters.


----------



## joethecobbler

travelingeasy - $60.00 a day in gas? wow,that's a killer.
I'm feeling good about the kubota it runs 10hrs on 5gal. or less @17-1900 rpm 5-6 knots. I rarely run it for that long.


----------



## svzephyr44

Don0190 said:


> If enough people could PROVE it could be done on less I would love it as I could show it to my wife and go sooner!


My experience with fellow cruisers is that "wife" adds significant expense. Just an observation.


----------



## travlin-easy

Joe, there were days in the ICW when the wind and tide were always on your nose. I ran an average of 10 hours a day to try and make 50 miles, but there were days when 30 miles was a good day because you were bucking a 40 MPH wind and 3 kt tide. I burn about .75 gallons of gasoline an hour, and there were places where gas sold for $5 a gallon or more. Under adverse conditions, when I really had to push the engine hard to get to an anchorage or marina before dark, I would burn 1.2 gallons per hour, which translated to about $50 to $60 a day. On rare days, when the tide and winds were favorable, I would throw out the jib and cruised along at 8 to 10 MPH down the ICW, which was a blessing. I loved those days. But, of course, the wind was woofing from the northwest, temperatures were down in the mid 40s and I was freezing my butt off after 10 hours at the helm. Sure was nice when I finally arrived in the keys and the temperature and my age were about the same, OH YEAH! 

Gary


----------



## svzephyr44

tdw said:


> Whoaaaaaa Neddie !!
> 
> This is not some kind of pissing competition peoples. Now I'm on record as saying that I couldn't cruise on USD$500pm but that does not mean that others couldn't or that others might like to try. There is no sin in trying.
> 
> So please ... this thread is about the pros and cons of $500pm cruising and whether or not it is possible in this day and age. It is not a stage to slag those who want to have a go, or are at least interested enough to discuss the matter.


I totally agree with you. From my perspective it should not about $500 or $3,000 per month. It should be about how to save money. In general we all know certain things:

Small boats are cheaper
Simple boats are cheaper
Marinas are expensive
etc.
Where I see value is in those things I did not know as a landlubber.
e.g.

Prepaid phones can save you a lot of money
Two Caribbean islands have very different costs (expand that to two cruising areas)
Prepaid cell phones in each location are much cheaper for local calls than using your prepaid American phone
Using the local library or other free Internet is cheaper than going to an Internet cafe
There is a wealth of free stuff on the Internet. Chart programs, charts, cruising guides, etc. Some of it just takes time to find
etc.
I would like to see a lot more emphasis on the bottom list rather than "My daddy can beat the s^% out of your daddy".


----------



## tdw

Obviously one of the big ways to save is to head for the tropics. Those of you who have to pull your boat for six months of the year are going to struggle to keep those costs down whilst those who permanently anchor out and eat lots of rice and veggies will be in a better position. If you are a liveaboard and have to winterise you boat, can you still live on board or do then have an extra expense with living costs on shore through winter ? 

Clothing is also going to be a lot cheaper in the tropics. Diving to clean hull is again less problematic. 

Of course one other way to save a few grand each year is to find a suitable spot and careen your boat. Lot cheaper than a travel lift. 

Even so $500pm still seems very tight to me especially for two people.


----------



## MikeOReilly

svzephyr44 said:


> I totally agree with you. From my perspective it should not about $500 or $3,000 per month. It should be about how to save money. ...I would like to see a lot more emphasis on the bottom list rather than "My daddy can beat the s^% out of your daddy".





tdw said:


> Whoaaaaaa Neddie !!
> 
> This is not some kind of pissing competition peoples. Now I'm on record as saying that I couldn't cruise on USD$500pm but that does not mean that others couldn't or that others might like to try. There is no sin in trying.


Thank you both (and others) for trying to keep this discussion healthy and positive.

I am not yet out there full time, so my expenses aren't directly applicable. I can tell you my summer/winter storage and seasonal dockage costs me ~$700/year. Equipment upgrades have been rather high, since we are building the boat capital for the big trip starting this summer; ~$7,000 last year. This includes a new stove/oven, new wind generator, new solar and new outboard.

Maintenance costs: less than $400 I think (a couple quarts of varnish and some odds and sods).

Direct cruising costs (food and fuel), perhaps $300 for a month of cruising, mostly just food. I only fill the diesel once per year right now, and that is before winter storage. I've never come close to burning a tank in a season (~80 gallons).

Boat insurance is ~$500/year, and of course I don't have to worry about health insurance being a Canadian.

What else...?


----------



## MikeOReilly

travlineasy said:


> Fuzzy, on the 3G and 4G radar systems they jump out at you. I was amazed at what you could see over a conventional radar system, and how well it could distinguish between two objects close together and objects very close to your boat. It's a pretty amazing system. The cost of both an AIS and 3G radar system combined to connect with my Lowrance HDS7 would be about $2,000 USD.


Good to know Gary. How good are these new systems in seeing squalls, fog banks, and other moisture-laden weather systems?

I'll likely be putting RADAR on the boat either this season or next before we head down the St. Lawrence. I currently make do without either, and we do deal with a lot of fog up here, especially early in the sailing season. What we don't have is a lot of traffic.

... I also plan to purchase an AIS receiver since I understand they are pretty cheap.


----------



## newhaul

I must apologize to all I did go a little overboard and the cost does vary a lot depending on how you live and where you are at both geographicly and in your personal comfort level


----------



## tdw

Mike,
Pardon me if this has been touched on before and I'm repeating myself but where do you plan to cruise ?

(my whoops cos I thought Mike was the OP, in fact BareFoot was.)

All in all though I think your chosen cruising grounds will have a huge impact on your budget.


----------



## travlin-easy

Take a look at this for the 3G Radar system demo.


----------



## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> Good to know Gary. How good are these new systems in seeing squalls, fog banks, and other moisture-laden weather systems?
> 
> I'll likely be putting RADAR on the boat either this season or next before we head down the St. Lawrence. I currently make do without either, and we do deal with a lot of fog up here, especially early in the sailing season. What we don't have is a lot of traffic.
> 
> ... I also plan to purchase an AIS receiver since I understand they are pretty cheap.


Mike... kudos to you... after seeing the current on the St. Lawrence I'm amazed anyone on a sailboat maneuvers safely... lots of powerboats but I have not seen a sailboat going down or up the river...

Regarding the AIS I think it's better to start a new thread on this rather than overtake this thread with AIS/radar discussions... liking the responses so far on the <$500 thread and those that actually have done the less than $$$ need to come on board with the real world costs on sailboats less than 27 feet... more likely 22-25 feet range.


----------



## guitarguy56

svzephyr44 said:


> I guess that like the cost of cruising "it depends." Mostly it depends on where you cruise. As pointed out there are areas where AIS is of very limited use - primary because few other boats are equipped. In those areas where there is high usage a receive only unit can help you scope out what is going on - helpful when approaching ports like New York or Miami or transiting areas with a lot of ship traffic like the Delaware Bay. As I pointed out in my previous post my experience is that larger ships have difficulty figuring out exactly where you are from a Lat/Long. I doubt they calculate CPA and time to CPA. The advantage of a transmit AIS is that their chart plotter gives them all of that information. It also gives them the name of your vessel so they don't have to call the boat at "approximately Lat/Long whatever."
> 
> With a receive only AIS you know that other ships are out there, their name, course, speed, CPA and time to CPA. This helps the Mark II eyeball locate them. With a transmit AIS they know you are there and they have the same information about you. It makes communication easier.
> 
> If you have a reasonably reliable full time watch in the cockpit or you are operating where there are not many AIS equipped ships one might take a pass. Or choose to invest in something else.
> 
> Risking the ire of newhaul and MikeORilley et al let me point out two items:
> 
> 1. You used the term _prudent._ What is _prudent_ for some may be overkill/inadequate for others - depending on budget, cruising style, cruising location, appetite for risk, etc. I am fortunate that I had enough money before I retired to have a pretty complete electronics suite - not everyone needs one or desires to own one. Over the course of some 15,000+ NM of cruising I have been relieved at some time that I had each element of the system on board. Did I need radar in the Caribbean? No. Did I need it in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland? Yes. My AIS came in handy when crossing the shipping lanes on my approach to Portugal. Watching 25 ships alter their course to give me 1 NM CPA was a great relief. I was coming off 8 days of 24/7 single handing in the Atlantic Ocean and I was tired. It was nice to not have to call each ship and say "do you see me?"
> 
> 2. If you look at modern marine electronics the core of any system is the chart plotter - now properly renamed a "multi-function" display. Most modern multi-function displays are not only the core unit but the most expensive single item in the budget. Once you have the multi-function display the peripherals are less expensive e.g.
> Transmit/Receive AIS $500
> Radar $900
> Depth Sounder - a transducer alone maybe $150
> and so on.
> 
> Usually integration will cost a bit more - my VHF radio integrates with my multi-function display. It lets me push a button to call a ship that is displayed as an AIS target. Is it necessary? No. Is it kind of cool? Yes. I think the added integration cost was about $50.
> 
> For those on a limited budget - and we all are, our budgets just vary - the order and need for various electronic devices varies a great deal. The single most important instrument on my boat when I crossed the Atlantic was an MF/HF radio (OK, after the GPS.) I could get weather, report my position on a daily basis, and chat - important when you are at sea for 15 or 20 days alone. Useful in the ICW? Not at all.
> 
> We could assist you in your purchasing plans a bit better if you told us a bit more about how you intend to use your boat.
> 
> Fair winds and following seas.


Thanks for the feedback on the AIS system... I think we should open up a new thread and discuss the AIS/radar systems.


----------



## svzephyr44

MikeOReilly said:


> Equipment upgrades have been rather high, since we are building the boat capital for the big trip starting this summer; ~$7,000 last year. This includes a new stove/oven, new wind generator, new solar and new outboard.


Thank you for the kind words.

I think one difference between my "budget" (constrained by my income no matter how I work the numbers) is that since I have been living aboard a number of years and I am on a fixed income "equipment upgrades" are part of the budget. Consider that you have blown the $6,000 annual budget by $1,000 on upgrades alone. That is not to p(*& on you - I could not afford the electronics suite I purchased before I moved aboard now. I kept a 30 year old dinghy and outboard alive for many years. Then it just was beyond hope - more patches than original fabric - an outboard that would have required a major overhaul and was underpowered for the dinghy. I also decided that given my cruising grounds it was just not safe - I was almost swamped a number of times - in particular I was not comfortable using the dinghy off Saba Island. The outboard struggled with the waves and current and we had to ferry people ashore one at a time.

Also we have said over and over again - location - location - location. Your annual costs for dockage and storage in Milwaukee, WI would be closer to $3,500 per year. In the Caribbean if your boat had no bottom paint you would be scraping weekly. Even with bottom paint you still need to scrape about once a month. On the other hand you could anchor in Simpson Bay lagoon (Saint Marten - the French side) year round for free. The island is cheap and it is one of the best hurricane holes in the Caribbean.

One reason I don't like to focus on a number like $500 or $3,000 per month is that my biggest expenses have been the unexpected. I got caught in a very bad squall off the North Carolina coast - $700 for sail repair. I dragged in a freak thunderstorm in Garrison Bight in Key West - new rudder about $2800. A friend was bringing his boat up the Hawk channel. He was caught in a freak storm. Lost his dinghy, outboard and davits. He almost lost his boat.

On the other hand I sat out Hurricane Irene as the eye passed 45 miles from the boat. We had lots of prep time and were OK. Other boats in the area did not fair as well. I particularly liked the big powerboat that dragged during the surge (about 15 feet) and ended up in his neighbor's back yard. Fortunately the boat was not damaged but they had to wait a while until the ground was dry enough to bring in a crane and refloat the boat!

My point is that certain kinds of damage need to be repaired if you are going to continue to sail. Other problems you can clearly take a pass on until you have the money or can figure out how to fix the problem within your budget.

It is fair to ask: "were we running unnecessary risks." The Garrison Bight and Hawk Channel storms were not forecast, they just popped up. I was 5 days into a 6 day transit from the Bahamas when my sails got damaged. At the time I was about 150 miles off shore. Not easy to find a safe harbor.

As those with pets know they can be a budget buster too. I have a beautiful Tonkinese cat. https://www.facebook.com/XoTheWonderCat He had urinary problems. The vet said in so many words "you can pay a lot of money or he will die." So I did pay the money. Another budget buster.

What I think happens in the real world is that when a financial disaster hits you change your lifestyle until you get past it. While sailing the easiest way to do this is to anchor out and not move. Assuming you are in a place where you can get inexpensive food it is possible to recover from most disasters - but not all. My perception is that $6,000 per year does not give one much margin for the unexpected. At least on $36,000 you can cut way back (one hopes) and overcome the unexpected in a shorter period of time. The reality is one has what one has. When a problem hits the best one can do is try and live within one's means.

A couple of notes on things I learned that I did not expect:

Salt water is a killer. I kept my boat in Lake Michigan for many years and had no mainenance issues. Within the first month I was polishing stainless and replacing cotter pins.
Milage is another killer. I averaged 400 NM per year family cruising. I averaged 1500 NM per year Lake racing. I never felt I had high maintenance costs. Once I started cruising 5000 NM per year the costs went up exponentially.
The major reason you "do it yourself" is because it will be done right. I wish I had half the money I wasted on so called experts who didn't know what they were doing. Or replaced an entire assembly when a cheap part would have fixed the problem. Live and learn.

Warning - Somewhat Off Topic

One area that we have not explored is how successful people are in making the transition to the cruising lifestyle. Apocryphal information is that 60% of cruisers give up cruising in the first year. I say apocryphal as I have never seen hard numbers. What impact does budget make? I don't know. Could a cruiser or cruising couple who were unhappy find joy if they had more money? Again I don't know. I am pretty sure most could be happy on Limitless (luxury yacht) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia if they did not have to pay the bills. Then again the owner only spends a few weeks a year on board. What can I say 

Fair winds and following seas.


----------



## svzephyr44

guitarguy56 said:


> Thanks for the feedback on the AIS system... I think we should open up a new thread and discuss the AIS/radar systems.


Go ahead and start a thread. We can cut and paste some of what has been written here or link to it.


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## MikeOReilly

tdw said:


> Mike,
> Pardon me if this has been touched on before and I'm repeating myself but where do you plan to cruise ?


No problem at all Andrew. I currently cruise seasonly on the upper Great Lakes; mostly Lake Superior. But this season begins our extended cruising life. My partner and I will be moving on the boat and slowly (b/c slow is the only way we do things ) making our way south. Our first season will see us wintering in Lake Ontario. We then plan to sail out the St. Lawrence, and spend some time in the Maritimes and NFLD. We'll eventually turn right and head to the Caribbean, and then who knows... From this (and other) discussions I expect we'll eventually meander our way to cheap places like Thailand or Malaysia.


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## MikeOReilly

guitarguy56 said:


> Mike... kudos to you... after seeing the current on the St. Lawrence I'm amazed anyone on a sailboat maneuvers safely... lots of powerboats but I have not seen a sailboat going down or up the river...


Yes ... I've been to Quebec City and watched the river turn to white water that I would be hesitant to run in my closed canoe. There's a good reason most people chose the canals to New York, or the Mississippi route. But many have done this route, and invariably those that survive rave about the journey, so at this point we're committed ... now, ask me how I feel next year when we're supposed to start the actual St. Lawrence journey .



svzephyr44 said:


> One reason I don't like to focus on a number like $500 or $3,000 per month is that my biggest expenses have been the unexpected. ...My point is that certain kinds of damage need to be repaired if you are going to continue to sail. Other problems you can clearly take a pass on until you have the money or can figure out how to fix the problem within your budget.


Thanks for this. I suspect you're right. It's when shyt happens that the tight budget will be thrown for a loop. I completely agree one needs a significant contingency fund to deal with the vagaries of life. One can certainly make choices to reduce risk to crew and vessel, but it's impossible to reduce risk to zero. It's important to have a Plan B (or C, D ... or Z)



svzephyr44 said:


> A couple of notes on things I learned that I did not expect:
> 
> Salt water is a killer. I kept my boat in Lake Michigan for many years and had no mainenance issues. Within the first month I was polishing stainless and replacing cotter pins.
> Milage is another killer. I averaged 400 NM per year family cruising. I averaged 1500 NM per year Lake racing. I never felt I had high maintenance costs. Once I started cruising 5000 NM per year the costs went up exponentially.
> The major reason you "do it yourself" is because it will be done right. I wish I had half the money I wasted on so called experts who didn't know what they were doing. Or replaced an entire assembly when a cheap part would have fixed the problem. Live and learn.


All really good points svzephyr44. My boat has been around the world already. You can see the effects of salt water and great distance on her. I only know in theory what to expect. Reality will be a great educator, no doubt. With regard to DIY, it's all I really know. Relative poverty, and the lack of local experts, make DIY the only real option for most things up here. There have been many times when I wished I could hire someone to do a job. But much like a nasty portage, or (they tell me) child birth, it's all worth it -- in retrospective .


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## guitarguy56

Mike if I'm still here by next year in Montreal it would be great when you start sailing the St. Lawrence to stop and have a beer and chat up the cruise to the south...

Now after all the discussions about cruising on $500... wouldn't this be the greatest of reality TV shows? Give each contestant a sailboat of similar size, crewed by semi-amateur sailors, each with $500 dollars a month and the rest is way point stations they must meet... of course the losers are out of the game... the winner arrives at some destination in the Caribbean or other worthy finish... it worked with some of the other reality travel shows... don't see why this would be any different... plus we actually get to see the real drama and living conditions while on a fixed budget.


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## Omatako

Don0190 said:


> Exactly, which means that this whole cruise on $500/mo is pretty much crap.
> 
> Hell seems there are lots of people who don't I will be able to do it on $3000/mo.
> 
> Would be better to have named the thread "ways to reduce cruising costs" as that is doable.


I'm sort of getting over the concept that everything that you spend on the boat prior to going cruising is part of your cruising budget.

That's the same as saying "I went to the movies last night, cost me $148000. $5 for the movie ticket and $147995 for the Ferrari I drove there in."

If I can afford a big ticket piece of kit while I'm on a handsome salary, why should this piece of equipment make my cruising expensive next year when my salary has stopped?

The cost of preparation and equipping a vessel has absolutely nothing to do with the budget to go sailing. This is not a difficult concept to grasp - the point has already been made several times before on this thread - all you have to do is start paying attention.


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## Don L

Omatako said:


> I'm sort of getting over the concept that everything that you spend on the boat prior to going cruising is part of your cruising budget.


I never said it does. The only part of the money you spend on prep is that is now that money is not in your cruising kitty for later.

On the other hand, money you didn't spend on prep that later breaks because of that is money right out of the budget


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## Omatako

tdw said:


> I think that's the sort of comment I was hoping for Aev. My comment was based on my own experience but as I said it may well depend on where you sail.
> 
> The only time I've been in a zero (effectively) visibility situation I found AIS more useful than Radar and at other times in reduced visibility the same.
> 
> Question for you .... how well do those small fishing boats stand out on Radar screen ? are they predominantly timber or is metal more prevalent these days.


Andrew, I sailed across the Indian Ocean below Sri Lanka and on to Indonesia. There are dozens of long liners operating out there and whilst I don't know this, I would be astonished (looking at the nature of the vessels) if even one of them have AIS. But they all paint on my radar.

Also when you're sailing in the South Pacific, the islands and atolls don't run AIS.

So I don't pooh-pooh AIS, will probably install one before my next voyage, but would never trade my radar for AIS.


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## tdw

Andre, Aev ..... I appreciate the your comments and I gues I should really apologise to everyone else for the hijack. Sorry about, I do tend to run off at the keyboard. 

I confess to having very little experience with Radar but I am strating to see where it has great advantages over AIS. 

see new thread.


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## tdw

Time of course may be the great equaliser here. 

Scenario .... you have your boat kitted out and ready to go and you intend heading off for a one or two year cruise. Maybe just maybe you are good to go on a tight budget. At the end of cruise you'll go back to work and refit or sell the boat.

Scenario II ..... open ended. You have to factor in long term maintenance. Hard to do on a tight budget.


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## svzephyr44

MikeOReilly said:


> Our first season will see us wintering in Lake Ontario.


A cautionary note. Unless your boat is unusual in that it has insulation the hull of your boat is going to be the temperature of the water. In other words, in Lake Ontario in winter about 28.4 degrees F. It will not be unusual for the water lines to freeze etc. It will take a lot of BTU's to keep the boat warm. Plus if you winterize the boat there will be systems you can not use - e.g. the fresh water system. I have been in North Carolina for a couple of months. It has been unusually cold - the water temperature at the dock dropped to 33 degrees about a week ago. It was a continuing battle to stay warm inside the boat. The cabin deck (as in the floor inside the boat) was near freezing, I was wearing my insulated winter boots to keep my feet warm.

If you haul the boat and live in it on shore the hull is going to be the outside temperature which could be significantly colder. Not to mention that most places will not like you draining the sink to the ground under the boat etc.

This is not to say you can't winter over in Ontario on the boat. Just to mention that you will have to adapt the boat for the stay if you want to stay warm and cozy.


----------



## aeventyr60

MikeOReilly said:


> Don, since your only purpose for posting here seems to be to take a piss, can I make the same request you did when you started your $3,000/month thread (a request I have honoured):
> 
> To echo your words, if you are in the $3,000+/month group, this thread is not for you.


The Poorest cruisers I know are in the 3000 a month bracket. Too big a boat, too complicated systems, not enough know how in repairing said vessel. needs to have fedex deliver more worthless items from WM. Seems to be able only to eat imported food from home country, wonders why everything at Villa mart is so expensive....etc, etc, etc


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## aeventyr60

tdw said:


> I think that's the sort of comment I was hoping for Aev. My comment was based on my own experience but as I said it may well depend on where you sail.
> 
> The only time I've been in a zero (effectively) visibility situation I found AIS more useful than Radar and at other times in reduced visibility the same.
> 
> Question for you .... how well do those small fishing boats stand out on Radar screen ? are they predominantly timber or is metal more prevalent these days.


Some you can see, others not, the old "depends factor"....hull material mostly wood so harder to see, not much free board harder to see, swell running harder to see. long and short boats. Amazing how far offshore these little boats are. Some times it's now you see em now you don't. Scaling down the range helps, rain and sea clutter on manual....but sometimes your so busy with the MKII eyeball and multiple bogeys that's it hard to keep track of.
Sorry for the hijack

What things cost:
Some stainless steel welding and cutting a few days ago 10 bucks
New BBQ propane regulator, hose, valve and clamps 12 bucks.
Bimini repair and restitch 16 bucks.
I'll take in my staysail bag and have some repairs/reinforcements for another 15 bucks.

I spent most of yesterday doing some other sewing projects, on the the larger one's it "pays" to have a shop do it for me.


----------



## neverknow

Our only advice is just the basic stuff.

Keep a log of every penny you spend. If you are writing it down you'll be surprised at how much you are really spending and on what. Most people do not have the discipline to do this. They'll say we are living on X per month, but they really don't know.

Another thing is stick to your monthly budget no matter what. That means even if one month you only spend $300 you don't spend $700 the next. This will help more than you think. However if one month you are forced to spend $700 (do to a med. expense or something disastrous) the next you'll have to limit yourself to $300.

Just some thoughts.............


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## Rhapsody-NS27

I've read someone mention using this thread for ideas to lower costs for those on a budget. So here's an idea, not mine but one I read before.

Some people talk about using sprayers like the ones used for weed killers that have a manual pump and using them for a shower system. I found out there's a Harbor Freight store in town so I walked around there this past weekend. I found out they have small sprayers that could be used for showers and they don't have the toxins from the weed killers that have to be cleaned out first. It's about $12 bucks. They look like it could work for a simple pressurized shower to wipe yourself off or if you're swimming, a good fresh water rinse.

1-1/4 Gallon Sprayer


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## svzephyr44

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> I found out there's a Harbor Freight store in town so I walked around there this past weekend.


In the how to save money category: Marine stores are the last resort! The local Wal-Mart has teak oil at 1/4 the price of West Marine. Typically the commercial outlets are much less expensive - The local HVAC dealer sells propane fittings for less than Lowes, much less than West Marine.


----------



## MikeOReilly

svzephyr44 said:


> A cautionary note. Unless your boat is unusual in that it has insulation the hull of your boat is going to be the temperature of the water. In other words, in Lake Ontario in winter about 28.4 degrees F. It will not be unusual for the water lines to freeze etc. ... This is not to say you can't winter over in Ontario on the boat. Just to mention that you will have to adapt the boat for the stay if you want to stay warm and cozy.


Thanks Roger. You're quite right. Living up here on the north shore of Lake Superior, I know a little something about cold . But while I've looked into wintering on board in Lake Ontario, and many people do it, (in the water ... on the hard would be way too difficult), I'm now leaning to just hauling the boat for winter 2014/15. Not sure where we'll live for the five cold months; perhaps down south in our tent (motorcycle camping), or we may come back north for one more winter work stint.

Don't know yet... All part of the adventure .


----------



## christian.hess

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> I've read someone mention using this thread for ideas to lower costs for those on a budget. So here's an idea, not mine but one I read before.
> 
> Some people talk about using sprayers like the ones used for weed killers that have a manual pump and using them for a shower system. I found out there's a Harbor Freight store in town so I walked around there this past weekend. I found out they have small sprayers that could be used for showers and they don't have the toxins from the weed killers that have to be cleaned out first. It's about $12 bucks. They look like it could work for a simple pressurized shower to wipe yourself off or if you're swimming, a good fresh water rinse.
> 
> 1-1/4 Gallon Sprayer


that was me, jajaja

what we used on our around trip...Ill be using one again shortly

works great as it sprays and you use maybe 2-3 cups instead of 2 galons a wash...no waste


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## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> What else...?


Mike

Was that reply the extent of your cruising budget planning? You don't feel there are boat repairs and maintenance that will occur (you don't read any cruisers blogs). You don't plan to go anywhere and sight see (must be some costs even if it is just to use a dinghy dock). In your $300/mo for food are you including paper towels, toilet paper, baggies, soap, etc. Are you never buying clothes again or washing the ones you have? You are living in cold water, going to have any heat on the boat? Are you planning to never haul the boat again and paint the bottom (water going to be pretty cool for diving).

I think maybe one of the problems here is that budgets aren't being every well developed (basically there isn't really a budget) and that things are just being left out.

PS - I'm still looking forward to seeing a real breakdown for a cruiser doing it anywhere near $500 for a year of at least a couple of years. This will show were the money goes, and just as important where it doesn't go.


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## MikeOReilly

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> Some people talk about using sprayers like the ones used for weed killers that have a manual pump and using them for a shower system. I found out there's a Harbor Freight store in town so I walked around there this past weekend. I found out they have small sprayers that could be used for showers and they don't have the toxins from the weed killers that have to be cleaned out first. It's about $12 bucks. They look like it could work for a simple pressurized shower to wipe yourself off or if you're swimming, a good fresh water rinse.


Good one Daniel. I converted this garden sprayer into our on-board shower. Works great. It holds 2.5 gallons so we can easily take two or three full showers with one tank. Being black, it also heats up well on deck:


----------



## guitarguy56

christian.hess said:


> that was me, jajaja
> 
> what we used on our around trip...Ill be using one again shortly
> 
> works great as it sprays and you use maybe 2-3 cups instead of 2 galons a wash...no waste


Hola Christian... eres Espanol? Yo tambien... 

There should be a way to pressurize this unit with a sink pump (12v low psi):

DC 12V 50W RV / Marine Fresh Water Diaphragm Self Priming Pro PUMPs 1Mpa 4L/min | Pennybuying

little wattage and a start switch in the shower area to pressurize the pump... not sure I'd like to be hand pumping that sprayer... just an idea... but I guess the simpler the better...


----------



## svzephyr44

*Re: First few days at sea on any budget*



MikeOReilly said:


> I only know in theory what to expect. Reality will be a great educator, no doubt.


Not only with money, but with sailing/voyaging/cruising in general. Since you have a boat that has been around the world you many actually have some of the "stuff" that is not on a typical "cruiser" as delivered from the factory. They say that "ignorance is bliss" but it can also be expensive. I was working with a new cruiser getting his boat ready. I helped him install solar panels and an autopilot. I said, "Before you go let me look at the boat and make some recommendations." I went away for a couple of days and when I returned the boat was gone. He called me and said, "I can't stand the cold so I headed south. I will see you in Key West." One of those "must have" items is a boom preventer. But he didn't know that. So off Cape Canaveral he set the autopilot and went up on the foredeck to check something. The wind shifted, the boat gybed, and the boom, solar panels and new dodger-bimini all went overboard. Fortunately he was not hit by the boom during the gybe or he would have gone overboard too. His first cruising "unexpected expense." Fortunately it did not include a trip to the hospital and he was able to motor into port.

Some of the things that I added:


Boom preventer,
Hard points - maybe 30 of them to tie everything inside down so it can't shift around,
Cockpit gate - the Catalina 42 has an open rear cockpit to the swim ladder. Amazing how much stuff floated off the stern,
Main Halyard pull down - a line to force the main sail to come down. They don't always want to in strong wind,
Cunningham - not strictly necessary but cheap and great for easy mainsail trim,
Heavy duty bucket on a line - the source for salt water for cleaning etc. underway,
Lazyjacks. I had them on the boat but with a racing crew we had taken them off. With 9 guys on the boat it was pretty easy to get the main down on the boom. With just me - well you get the point.
Mast steps - you don't miss them until you need to get up the mast at sea
Tricolor - I really wanted to be seen from a distance by other boats.

Another area was the loss of time sense. When you are living on shore you know what day of the week it is. You have a pretty good idea of time passing. On a boat not so much. I lost track of how long it had been since I did various checks on the boat. I ended up making a reminder list so that I would not forget. It is attached to my calendar.


Water level in batteries,
Fuel filter, drain the water from the bottom of the centrifugal separator
Water filters - particularly for the refrigeration system, if I had air conditioning I would expect that to clog quickly also,
Engine oil,
Rig - with particular emphasis on the cotter pins that prevent the clevis pins from coming out,
Running rigging - sheets and halyards - never a concern before, amazed at how they would shred or split,
Bilge pump switches - my boat is very dry - I did not know that one of the switches had failed (I have redundant systems) until I checked it.
Thru-hulls. I open and close them to make sure they are not frozen up. I learned that in very cold weather they tend to stick, as it warms up they get loose again.
Lubrication - on my boat the engine kill lanyard tends to freeze up if not lubricated on a regular basis.
Propane tank level - it sounds silly but... I have two tanks. One used to be the spare and the other ran the stove/oven. But now the second tank also runs the cabin heater so it is possible for both to empty at the same time. Not a good thing if you need to cook!
Storage lockers - I learned the hard way that the bottoms of storage lockers can get very wet. Usually this is from condensation. I open them up and empty them out. Everything in them is in plastic bags. I have thrown away more than my fair share of stuff ruined by sitting in a puddle of water for a couple of months.

I add to the list from time to time when I discover something I should be checking on a regular basis.

World Cruising Mods
Since you are retrofit mode let me add two items to your list should you expect to leave North/Central America and venture on.

A 220 volt 50 cycle battery charger and "European" shore power inlet and cord/adapters. Many of the new chargers are 'world chargers." They will accept 90 V to 250 V and 50 Hz to 60 Hz power. My solar panels kept the batteries topped off but they were in dire need of an equalization charge after 6 months of just solar panel recharging. My particular favorite company is Victron Energy - Inverter/chargers - Inverters - Battery Chargers - and more There are two companies I would never buy from given my previous experience - Xantrex and Raymarine. Victron equipment is more expensive but is the brand of choice on high end yachts.
Another solution rather than a new charger is a 220V to 110V transformer. Much less expensive. My problem was that the shore power voltages were just off enough that my 110V charger would not run because it read either low or high voltage.
A butane tank adapter that can attach to your propane system. Not an expensive item but hard to find all the bits - metric to English - male/female etc. Many parts of the world use butane instead of propane. You stove will work - it will not be quite as hot. Better than not working at all.

Fair winds and following seas


----------



## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> Good one Daniel. I converted this garden sprayer into our on-board shower. Works great. It holds 2.5 gallons so we can easily take two or three full showers with one tank. Being black, it also heats up well on deck:


you do NOT want heat in the tropics! jajaja

we used a red one and now I see some white ones down here...they have a big 5 galon one...hmmm

well see what I decide shortly

in any case THEY ARE GREAT!


----------



## christian.hess

guitarguy56 said:


> Hola Christian... eres Espanol? Yo tambien...
> 
> There should be a way to pressurize this unit with a sink pump (12v low psi):
> 
> DC 12V 50W RV / Marine Fresh Water Diaphragm Self Priming Pro PUMPs 1Mpa 4L/min | Pennybuying
> 
> little wattage and a start switch in the shower area to pressurize the pump... not sure I'd like to be hand pumping that sprayer... just an idea... but I guess the simpler the better...


hola tio! jeje

naci en espana, en malaga de padre norteamericano y madre salvadorena, resido aqui en el salvador, donde me case y tengo mi restaurante...

abrazos!
christian


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

christian.hess said:


> you do NOT want heat in the tropics! jajaja
> 
> we used a red one and now I see some white ones down here...they have a big 5 galon one...hmmm
> 
> well see what I decide shortly
> 
> in any case THEY ARE GREAT!


It doesn't matter how hot it gets, I still like hot showers.


----------



## MikeOReilly

*Re: First few days at sea on any budget*



svzephyr44 said:


> Not only with money, but with sailing/voyaging/cruising in general. Since you have a boat that has been around the world you many actually have some of the "stuff" that is not on a typical "cruiser" as delivered from the factory.


All good points Roger. We're reasonably well equipped, but it's tips like having the 220v option, and being to take butane, that are issues I've never had to deal with. Thanks for these.

One of the things I'm really looking forward to is just getting out there to see what we really need, and how we will cruise. Forums and dock-side discussions are great, but I've learned that when you ask 10 cruisers a question you'll get 15 opinions .

Some questions can only be answered by doing it yourself. So we're going to go -- slowly. We're going to give ourselves time to figure things out, and we're going to allow for the possibility of failure. But we're going.


----------



## guitarguy56

christian.hess said:


> hola tio! jeje
> 
> naci en espana, en malaga de padre norteamericano y madre salvadorena, resido aqui en el salvador, donde me case y tengo mi restaurante...
> 
> abrazos!
> christian


Chao... mi padre (fallecido) es de Arragon, ESP... mi madre es pura Taino de Puerto Rico, el eras medico y vivimos en Nueva Jersey donde tenia su practica, yo naci en Puerto Rico durante el nacimiento, mis padres tienen casa y terreno de parte de mi madre... yo nunca a vivido en Puerto Rico pero visito todos los anos ya que mi madre vives in Florida, PR.

I like your paella recipies and I also have a nice seafood paella that would knock your socks off... I got this recipie from one of the chefs at La Finca in Shanghai (of all places the best Spanish restaurant yet) and I have not changed it but for the added seafood items... very tasty! I'll pass it on later...

Keep up the good exchange of ideas on this thread...


----------



## guitarguy56

*Re: First few days at sea on any budget*



svzephyr44 said:


> Not only with money, but with sailing/voyaging/cruising in general. Since you have a boat that has been around the world you many actually have some of the "stuff" that is not on a typical "cruiser" as delivered from the factory. They say that "ignorance is bliss" but it can also be expensive. I was working with a new cruiser getting his boat ready. I helped him install solar panels and an autopilot. I said, "Before you go let me look at the boat and make some recommendations." I went away for a couple of days and when I returned the boat was gone. He called me and said, "I can't stand the cold so I headed south. I will see you in Key West." One of those "must have" items is a boom preventer. But he didn't know that. So off Cape Canaveral he set the autopilot and went up on the foredeck to check something. The wind shifted, the boat gybed, and the boom, solar panels and new dodger-bimini all went overboard. Fortunately he was not hit by the boom during the gybe or he would have gone overboard too. His first cruising "unexpected expense." Fortunately it did not include a trip to the hospital and he was able to motor into port.
> 
> Some of the things that I added:
> 
> 
> Boom preventer,
> Hard points - maybe 30 of them to tie everything inside down so it can't shift around,
> Cockpit gate - the Catalina 42 has an open rear cockpit to the swim ladder. Amazing how much stuff floated off the stern,
> Main Halyard pull down - a line to force the main sail to come down. They don't always want to in strong wind,
> Cunningham - not strickly necessary but cheap and great for easy mainsail trim,
> Heavy duty bucket on a line - the source for salt water for cleaning etc. underway,
> Lazyjacks. I had them on the boat but with a racing crew we had taken them off. With 9 guys on the boat it was pretty easy to get the main down on the boom. With just me - well you get the point.
> 
> Another area was the loss of time sense. When you are living on shore you know what day of the week it is. You have a pretty good idea of time passing. On a boat not so much. I lost track of how long it had been since I did various checks on the boat. I ended up making a reminder list so that I would not forget. It is attached to my calendar.
> 
> 
> Water level in batteries,
> Fuel filter, drain the water from the bottom of the centrifugal separator
> Water filters - particularly for the refrigeration system, if I had air conditioning I would expect that to clog quickly also,
> Engine oil,
> Rig - with particular emphasis on the cotter pins that prevent the clevis pins from coming out,
> Running rigging - sheets and halyards - never a concern before, amazed at how they would shred or split,
> Bilge pump switches - my boat is very dry - I did not know that one of the switches had failed (I have redundant systems) until I checked it.
> Thru-hulls. I open and close them to make sure they are not frozen up. I learned that in very cold weather they tend to stick, as it warms up they get loose again.
> Lubrication - on my boat the engine kill lanyard tends to freeze up if not lubricated on a regular basis.
> Propane tank level - it sounds silly but... I have two tanks. One used to be the spare and the other ran the stove/oven. But now the second tank also runs the cabin heater so it is possible for both to empty at the same time. Not a good thing if you need to cook!
> Storage lockers - I learned the hard way that the bottoms of storage lockers can get very wet. Usually this is from condensation. I open them up and empty them out. Everything in them is in plastic bags. I have thrown away more than my fair share of stuff ruined by sitting in a puddle of water for a couple of months.
> 
> I add to the list from time to time when I discover something I should be checking on a regular basis.
> 
> World Cruising Mods
> Since you are retrofit mode let me add two items to your list should you expect to leave North/Central America and venture on.
> 
> A 220 volt 50 cycle battery charger and "European" shore power inlet and cord/adapters. Many of the new chargers are 'world chargers." They will accept 90 V to 250 V and 50 Hz to 60 Hz power. My solar panels kept the batteries topped off but they were in dire need of an equalization charge after 6 months of just solar panel recharging. My particular favorite company is Victron Energy - Inverter/chargers - Inverters - Battery Chargers - and more There are two companies I would never buy from given my previous experience - Xantrex and Raymarine. Victron equipment is more expensive but is the brand of choice on high end yachts.
> Another solution rather than a new charger is a 220V to 110V transformer. Much less expensive. My problem was that the shore power voltages were just off enough that my 110V charger would not run because it read either low or high voltage.
> A butane tank adapter that can attach to your propane system. Not an expensive item but hard to find all the bits - metric to English - male/female etc. Many parts of the world use butane instead of propane. You stove will work - it will not be quite as hot. Better than not working at all.
> 
> Fair winds and following seas


Great ideas Roger... you the man! You should have your own sticky... :chaser


----------



## tdw

Regarding showers .... i've used the pump up sprayer on previous boats and found them adequate for the purpose. In sunny weather a solar bag or even just a hose left on deck will get probably too hot but it is cheap hot water. We would drain the solar bag or hose into the head sink, add some cold to bring temp down and drop a 12v pump with shower head attached into that. The thing plugged into a cigarette light socket. Now that worked wonderfully well. In winter same arrangement but we'd boil a kettle. I'm sure that a more permanent installation would make the whole thing more convenient to use, e.g a container with 12v pump installed in the base, said container perhaps located in head cupboard.


----------



## Lou452

For the pump sprayer to take a shower I was reading Hall Roth recommended using a sink rinse spray handle. The kind of plastic spray head you find on a home kitchen sink for rinsing the dishes. He had some difficulty finding a fitting to change the end of sprayer over. This puts out more water ?
This spray wand can also be used to cool off on a hot day we would use them at half time on the football < (soccer field ) The wand does not put out so much water that you are not to wet. 

Good day, Lou


----------



## wind_magic

It's all about expectations.

If you grew up making a banquet out of a cup of rice then living on 500$us/mo is not only easy that's living like royalty.

If you grew up going to the best restaurants whenever you wanted, not so easy.

If you grew up living in a small room without electricity, living on a boat with a solar panel is going to be amazing, you can actually listen to the radio!

If you grew up living in a mansion, powering down is going to be hard.

If you grew up washing with a cloth out of a small basin of water you carried from a creek, living with a small amount of water on a boat is no different.

If you grew up taking 30 minute hot showers every morning, it'll be a new experience you're probably not going to like very much.

If you grew up trading for parts and doing everything yourself, it can be easy.

If you grew up taking it to the shop and letting somebody else do it all for you, not so much.

It's not that 500$us/mo isn't enough money, it's that 500$us/mo isn't enough money for most people who grew up living the easy life in America, land of cheeseburgers and jiffy lube oil changes.


----------



## Don L

I'm not really sure what using a bug sprayer to take a shower has a lot to do with cheap cruising. Isn't that really about life on a boat with small water tanks for a long passage. Even in places that charge for water it is pretty inexpensive in the big picture and if you can go ashore and get water, you should be able to find a shower.

Still waiting for actual cruise expenses (without it depends some months answers) and proposed budgets. I would think that those planning on the $500/mo budget would be really interested in where they should plan their money to be be going toward.


----------



## Group9

All I know is that the guy who says it can't be done, is not going to be the guy who does it, or the one to ask on how to do it.


----------



## Don L

Group9 said:


> All I know is that the guy who says it can't be done, is not going to be the guy who does it, or the one to ask on how to do it.


I'm just as sure that the guy who can not show a real budget that covers all areas wouldn't be able to stay within the budget.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Lou452 said:


> For the pump sprayer to take a shower I was reading Hall Roth recommended using a sink rinse spray handle. The kind of plastic spray head you find on a home kitchen sink for rinsing the dishes. He had some difficulty finding a fitting to change the end of sprayer over. This puts out more water ?
> This spray wand can also be used to cool off on a hot day we would use them at half time on the football < (soccer field ) The wand does not put out so much water that you are not to wet.


When I was setting mine up I was planning to replace the sprayer nozzle with a kitchen sprayer, but I was able to modify the existing bronze nozzle to allow for a descent shower. All I did was gently pry open the nozzle opening until it produced a descent flow (but still very fine). One of the great things with the sprayer approach is that you can produce high pressure with very small flow. Allows you to use very little water, and still take a satisfying shower.


----------



## guitarguy56

Most outboards have a small generator for charging batteries and or supply enough power for lights... I have the small generator on my outboard... why couldn't this power be used to run a 12V heating element for 10-15 minutes or so to heat up the water in a holding tank for warm/hot shower... I used to run the outboard to charge the batteries when away from the slip... don't see why it couldn't be set up this way...

http://store.mwands.com/dc-water-heater-elements/6-inch-12-volt-dc-submersible-water-heater-element/

Forgot to mention I also have the Honda 2000 generator which can also be used to run the heater in the hot water tank for several minutes... nice cozy warm/hot water sure beats cold water on a cool day...


----------



## guitarguy56

Don0190 said:


> I'm just as sure that the guy who can not show a real budget that covers all areas wouldn't be able to stay within the budget.


Maybe the person living on a $500 budget or less doesn't have the time to do budgets or keeping track since he is too busy voyaging to the next cheapest cruising grounds...


----------



## Don L

guitarguy56 said:


> Maybe the person living on a $500 budget or less doesn't have the time to do budgets or keeping track since he is too busy voyaging to the next cheapest cruising grounds...


Maybe. All I know for sure is that I spend more time doing my budget when I have the least amount money so that I make sure I take care of important things. When I have extra money I don't worry too much about my budget.

Guess I have an unusual desire to know how much and what on I can spend once I arrive at that cheap cruising ground.


----------



## christian.hess

guitarguy56 said:


> Chao... mi padre (fallecido) es de Arragon, ESP... mi madre es pura Taino de Puerto Rico, el eras medico y vivimos en Nueva Jersey donde tenia su practica, yo naci en Puerto Rico durante el nacimiento, mis padres tienen casa y terreno de parte de mi madre... yo nunca a vivido en Puerto Rico pero visito todos los anos ya que mi madre vives in Florida, PR.
> 
> I like your paella recipies and I also have a nice seafood paella that would knock your socks off... I got this recipie from one of the chefs at La Finca in Shanghai (of all places the best Spanish restaurant yet) and I have not changed it but for the added seafood items... very tasty! I'll pass it on later...
> 
> Keep up the good exchange of ideas on this thread...


post any paella recipe on the "paella recipe thread"

the best paellas are the simplest ones...made with "love" jajajaj


----------



## MikeOReilly

OK, here is a serious question inspired by Don0190:

How do you manage foreign currency exchange so as to minimize fees and costs? I assume cash is king for low-cost cruisers, so where and how do you do your currency exchanges? Or perhaps I'm wrong. Do people use debit cards, or perhaps even credit cards?

A few months ago I went looking for a credit card that didn't charge any foreign currency conversion charges. Almost every credit card charges users a 2.5% charge for every foreign currency purchase. As a Canadian I often find myself purchasing in foreign currencies when shopping online (mostly USD, but also Euros sometimes).

Anyway, I found four options here in Canada. In the US, there are a lot more:

Amazon.ca VISA
Sears Financial MasterCard (two versions)
Marriott VISA


----------



## jerryrlitton

Bitcoin dude


----------



## christian.hess

dolar bills and euros are the best to always have at hand

but atms for big cash withdrawals or lastly bank transfers

Ive also used lately money transfers to and from by moneygram especially if you have a friend back home who can send you or recieve some money with little cost involved

paypal is good too especially if you need to buy stuff online
but works great as gifts to transfer


----------



## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> OK, here is a serious question inspired by Don0190:
> 
> How do you manage foreign currency exchange so as to minimize fees and costs? I assume cash is king for low-cost cruisers, so where and how do you do your currency exchanges? Or perhaps I'm wrong. Do people use debit cards, or perhaps even credit cards?
> 
> A few months ago I went looking for a credit card that didn't charge any foreign currency conversion charges. Almost every credit card charges users a 2.5% charge for every foreign currency purchase. As a Canadian I often find myself purchasing in foreign currencies when shopping online (mostly USD, but also Euros sometimes).
> 
> Anyway, I found four options here in Canada. In the US, there are a lot more:
> 
> Amazon.ca VISA
> Sears Financial MasterCard (two versions)
> Marriott VISA


a good debit card is always handy as is 1 cedit card for emergencies...

HOWEVER be prepared to pay not only fees for taking out money at most atms worldwide but you will always always be charged for using your card overseas...

I dont beleive any bank offers a no fee for taking out money in a foreign country

my well fargo card charges me as does the atm down here...all charge something

1 end, or both ends...


----------



## jerryrlitton

Your biggest risk will be the fall in the loonie. Good times for the maple leaf are short lived.ask the aussies with a 20 percent haircut recently.


----------



## Group9

Don0190 said:


> I'm just as sure that the guy who can not show a real budget that covers all areas wouldn't be able to stay within the budget.


If you're not going to borrow money, and run a deficit, you pretty much have to stay within your budget (something most Americans and the federal government find excruciatingly hard to do, though). 

Having put myself through college and law school, I have lived in quite the budget range. In the good days, I've dropped $500 on one meal. In the tight days, $500 for the month would have made me think I had won the lottery.

I admit I wouldn't want to cruise right now on $500 a month. My budget on my last cruise was close to $5000 per month. Almost all of that was on luxuries, not necessities. But, I am 100 per cent sure I could it, if that's the only way I could do it.


----------



## guitarguy56

christian.hess said:


> a good debit card is always handy as is 1 cedit card for emergencies...
> 
> HOWEVER be prepared to pay not only fees for taking out money at most atms worldwide but you will always always be charged for using your card overseas...
> 
> I dont beleive any bank offers a no fee for taking out money in a foreign country
> 
> my well fargo card charges me as does the atm down here...all charge something
> 
> 1 end, or both ends...


Gets expensive quick... being here in Montreal every time I pull out any money out of Montreal Bank ATM I am charged $5.00 U.S and $8.50 +/- International Transfer Fees... that is on pulling just $300 every three weeks or so... I never use my debit/credit cards outside the U.S. It would have to be a serious emergency for me to do that... I use cash only... right now the exchange rate for the Loonie is 87 cents to the U.S. dollar so pretty good for me... but other countries fair worse so the fees would be much higher.


----------



## Group9

christian.hess said:


> a good debit card is always handy as is 1 cedit card for emergencies...
> 
> HOWEVER be prepared to pay not only fees for taking out money at most atms worldwide but you will always always be charged for using your card overseas...
> 
> I dont beleive any bank offers a no fee for taking out money in a foreign country
> 
> my well fargo card charges me as does the atm down here...all charge something
> 
> 1 end, or both ends...


That was one issue I had on my last foreign cruise. The crazy fees tagged on to pull money out of a foreign ATM. It made me seriously consider carrying more cash next time. Pros and cons to debit cards and cash, I guess. I'm Wells Fargo, too.


----------



## christian.hess

DOLAR BILLS

not ten dolar bills or 20 or 50 or 100

DOLAR BILLS

it makes everything easy...changing big bucks is a no no in many countries for example most supermarkets down here shun the 50 dolar bill as it was easily falsified

as are 100s now they are a new version so it will take time to falsify...all countries have false money...

so far I have only suffered having false money a couple of times around the world

what I can say is this

cash is king

stow it all around the boat in those nice sealable waterprrof containers or better yet vaccum seal them

that way if you are ever robbed you have low money values in each bag, and since thiefs like to hit and run...they will leave with very little value

this is from personal experience being robbed our first night in ERITREA...in the red sea

thats my tip peoples


----------



## christian.hess

Group9 said:


> That was one issue I had on my last foreign cruise. The crazy fees tagged on to pull money out of a foreign ATM. It made me seriously consider carrying more cash next time. Pros and cons to debit cards and cash, I guess. I'm Wells Fargo, too.


wells fargo isnt *that* bad to tag on fees for taking money out, its a percentage but small...

my current address is here in el salvador btw...they are nice about sending you stuff worldwide

our atms here I only use one affiliated bank which is CITI I had bad experiences using various other atms...specifically cancellation of withdrawals midway and then being reported in my statements and later returned

a huge hassle

they "only" charge around $2 to take money out of my atm wells debit card

ive used this card in spain, panama, france, england(airport) all over central america, here in el salavdor, thailand, yemen, egypt, sri lanka, even sudan!

all over the red sea

i think Im missiing some

cant remember many other countries too...fees vary...one place I wish I remember was like $20 to take out money

ridiculous

I also used the $300 withdrawal at a time amount...it was a nice easy number to remember and for me as crew helping out on my spanish friends boat with everything BUT food it lasted me months...

this included all my passport fees and customs fees, imigration etc...any hotel or hostel we stayed at while traveling inland, any meal outside the boat, beer, souvenirs, clothing sandals, etc etc...

the only place we went nuts BUDGET wise was sri lanka

the most beaitiful country we visited by far! we did a guided(private) driver tour

something like 2 weeks long...I think I spent $800 for my part...it was well worth it

saw budhas tomb, monk caves, sitting fishermen on the coast and saw firt hand the devastation the tsunami did

thailand was nothing compared to what sri lankans suffered

we were there months after the tsunami

bummer

anywhoo

back to voyaging on $500 a month


----------



## Don L

Since there are no annual and foreign transaction fee credit cards available it seems crazy budget wise to go to a local bank and get cash all the time, paying ATM fees, just so you can pay in cash. If you use your no fee credit card and pay it off each month, that is free and saves the ATM fees and you spent less. Also I find that cash is the hardness thing to later figure out what it got spent on.

If I take out $50 cash out from the ATM at home it lasts me a month!


----------



## barefootnavigator

Don0190 said:


> I'm just as sure that the guy who can not show a real budget that covers all areas wouldn't be able to stay within the budget.


Don, several people here have put up their budgets but to be honest most of us simply are not that anal. I'm having a massively expensive month as I'm doing my bi annual provisioning. If my envelope filled with 500 for the month runs dry, it never has but it might I will simply push the rest off till next month. On my budget of 500 I had 250 lbs of food left in my lockers at the end of the year, I know this because I weighed it. I also purchased a new dingy, foul weather gear and many new charts as well as a new motor for the boat and had money left over at the end of the year. It doesn't really matter what ones persons budget is, I am the OP and put it up to give us all thought for the cold dark nights of winter. I'm living easily and happily on that budget so I felt I was well represented posting this.

I see a lot of people here bashing on beans and rice but not sure why, it a very healthy diet, if more people took better care of them self's they wouldn't need to add health insurance into their budgets. Last night I was chatting with a good friend who also happens to be a self made millionaire, beans and rice are daily staples in his life, at 75 he still runs marathons, climes mountains and kayaks hundreds of miles down god forsaken rivers. Years ago he set up a charity in India and has helped to rebuild an entire town, maybe we all should eat more beans and rice and do more for our less fortunate neighbors rather than park our million dollar yachts in their impoverished front yards and wonder why crimes are committed against us.
I love beans and rice


----------



## guitarguy56

Don0190 said:


> Since there are no annual and foreign transaction fee credit cards available it seems crazy budget wise to go to a local bank and get cash all the time, paying ATM fees, just so you can pay in cash. If you use your no fee credit card and pay it off each month, that is free and saves the ATM fees and you spent less. Also I find that cash is the hardness thing to later figure out what it got spent on.
> 
> If I take out $50 cash out from the ATM at home it lasts me a month!


Apparently you have never been to a country where the credit card number was stolen and you had to wait weeks before the new card came in... in the mean time you are left with the little cash in your pocket and hoped that lasted... so yeah I'd rather pay the fees and know when I look into my bank account the fees are directly from the bank I pulled money out and not $250 for some restaurant I never went to...

I also use cash in the States... and hardly use my credit cards or debit cards except to take cash out... learned my lesson more than once!


----------



## christian.hess

Don0190 said:


> Since there are no annual and foreign transaction fee credit cards available it seems crazy budget wise to go to a local bank and get cash all the time, paying ATM fees, just so you can pay in cash. If you use your no fee credit card and pay it off each month, that is free and saves the ATM fees and you spent less. Also I find that cash is the hardness thing to later figure out what it got spent on.
> 
> If I take out $50 cash out from the ATM at home it lasts me a month!


what local bank? you cant use credit cards for everything like in the us...you HAVE to have cash to cruise around the world

this is how cruisers cruise all over the world

a trip to the atm once or twice a month or weekly is a ritual

again my recomendation to you is set sail NOW...

the more you think about it the more your mind will trick you into not being ready

your boat will be sitting all full of gadgets and gizmos imposed to you by non cruisers and magazines and you will regret not leaving sooner

stop thinking $$$$ think experiences

Im having a hard time reading your posts, not because I dont like them or you but simply because you are overstressing and overthinking the simplest of things

just do it! like nike said

LEARN ALONG THE WAY


----------



## christian.hess

barefoot 

beans and rice is the main food down here

its called CASAMIENTO and Id be glad to share a recipe or 2

our beans are very special(yes im proud) they are like small red beans but very very flavourfull called "de seda" 

losely translated: "of silk" cause they are so smooth and shiny when done well

pair this rice and beans with a corn thick tortilla and you actually have all your nutrients needed in one plate...

a small peice of fish or hen or meat and bam, protein, carbs, minerals everything

people who bash on other peoples foods(unless junk food) simply dont know or want to or care about other cultures and ways of living
sad but true

cruisers included...


----------



## krisscross

If I was going to cruise overseas I would stock up on basic food items (non-perishables) here in US. Food is quite cheap here, especially when you buy it in bulk. I would put it all in watertight containers on the cabin sole, perhaps forming a 'second sole' with plywood so I can walk on it (stooping is OK by me in that case). That way I would only be buying fresh stuff, like fruits, milk and veggies while abroad. I like the idea of stashing cash in small bills in several places on the boat.


----------



## krisscross

christian.hess said:


> beans and rice is the main food down here


Combined with some fresh fruits and veggies (or canned if no option) it is a diet I can (and have) live on for many months.


----------



## Don L

I give up, you guys only what to heard and believe what you want to. I was interested in what you are spending to do it on the cheap and all the answer you provide is "yes". I thought there maybe something to be learned and considered.

Some closing thoughts:
-if I load up my boat with food,water and fuel I could anchor and spent $0 for months, that doesn't mean I'm cruising on $0/mo (maybe not as my anchor and chain cost me $1000 to buy)
- if you motored up the ICW last month, but didn't motor this month, your fuel budget isn't $0
- if you don't wear clothes because you are a guy, well ....
- if you buy $700-7000 of fancy electronics before you leave, but none for the next few years, you electronic toy upgrade budget isn't $0
- if you use your boat equipment but didn't replace any the last few months, your budget to do so isn't $0 as you have to someday
- if you don't do any repair and maintenance on your boat because you did a major refit prior to going and then 2 years later, you didn't really spend $0 on maintenance for 2 years
- if you don't use a credit card because someone MAY steal it (which the card people eat all but $50 if you don't report it, and that you should be smart enough to have more than 1) and instead somehow feel it is better to waste money on ATM fees then that is crazy
- if you avoid credit cards because SOME places don't take them so you don't use them at all, that is just as crazy
- if you don't use credit cards because there isn't a bank around, well I don't really understand why you need a bank around, but it sounds that there are ATMs so the whole thing is doubtful
- if you buy a new dinghy and outboard so you can anchor out, but don't have to replace for 10 years where is the money coming from 10 years from now if you didn't budget for it
- I could go on and on but what would be the period, I believe the reason none of you are willing to provide the budget is that it will show you aren't doing it except for once in a while once the "it depends" are factored in because "it depends" still cost money like above and falls into one of the above type of examples

In the end if you what to cruise on the cheap:
- don't eat meat unless you caught it yourself
- don't drink (anything other than water)
- don't get anything that may need refrigeration (it is going to cost you somehow to get it cold)
- don't replace boat equipment unless you can find used or free parts
- don't stay in marinas, ever
- don't stay in places where you will have to use a marina that expects you to have to pay to use their docks, showers, water, etc
- don't have a motor in you boat
- don't sightsee unless you can walk to it and it is free
- only travel to Central American of Southeast Asia, but be selective of those even
- don't have insurance for anything

The question isn't whether you CAN do all the above, it is whether you WANT to. If you want to it seems a lot less trouble to live in tent under a bridge somewhere.


----------



## barefootnavigator

Don, according to your way of thinking my budget is about 27 million as thats the closest number I can accurately come up with based on how much money I have earned and spent in my life. Everything I have done from birth to now has made it possible to do waht I'm doing so for your sake I have put it in my budget.  A) its not a competition, though if it was I would be winning  That was a joke just in case anyone didn't get it. B) you saying that those of us out here happily doing it cant is like me sailing you don't own a sailboat. If you really do own a sailboat we are out here day ion and day out loving life, um except when it sucks.


----------



## Don L

great answer, that means nothing other that "yes"


----------



## barefootnavigator

Don0190 said:


> I give up, you guys only what to heard and believe what you want to. I was interested in what you are spending to do it on the cheap and all the answer you provide is "yes". I thought there maybe something to be learned and considered.
> 
> Some closing thoughts:
> -if I load up my boat with food,water and fuel I could anchor and spent $0 for months, that doesn't mean I'm cruising on $0/mo (maybe not as my anchor and chain cost me $1000 to buy)
> - if you motored up the ICW last month, but didn't motor this month, your fuel budget isn't $0
> - if you don't wear clothes because you are a guy, well ....
> - if you buy $700-7000 of fancy electronics before you leave, but none for the next few years, you electronic toy upgrade budget isn't $0
> - if you use your boat equipment but didn't replace any the last few months, your budget to do so isn't $0 as you have to someday
> - if you don't do any repair and maintenance on your boat because you did a major refit prior to going and then 2 years later, you didn't really spend $0 on maintenance for 2 years
> - if you don't use a credit card because someone MAY steal it (which the card people eat all but $50 if you don't report it, and that you should be smart enough to have more than 1) and instead somehow feel it is better to waste money on ATM fees then that is crazy
> - if you avoid credit cards because SOME places don't take them so you don't use them at all, that is just as crazy
> - if you don't use credit cards because there isn't a bank around, well I don't really understand why you need a bank around, but it sounds that there are ATMs so the whole thing is doubtful
> - if you buy a new dinghy and outboard so you can anchor out, but don't have to replace for 10 years where is the money coming from 10 years from now if you didn't budget for it
> - I could go on and on but what would be the period, I believe the reason none of you are willing to provide the budget is that it will show you aren't doing it except for once in a while once the "it depends" are factored in because "it depends" still cost money like above and falls into one of the above type of examples
> 
> In the end if you what to cruise on the cheap:
> - don't eat meat unless you caught it yourself
> - don't drink (anything other than water)
> - don't get anything that may need refrigeration (it is going to cost you somehow to get it cold)
> - don't replace boat equipment unless you can find used or free parts
> - don't stay in marinas, ever
> - don't stay in places where you will have to use a marina that expects you to have to pay to use their docks, showers, water, etc
> - don't have a motor in you boat
> - don't sightsee unless you can walk to it and it is free
> - only travel to Central American of Southeast Asia, but be selective of those even
> - don't have insurance for anything
> 
> The question isn't whether you CAN do all the above, it is whether you WANT to. If you want to it seems a lot less trouble to live in tent under a bridge somewhere.


With all do respect and I do sincerely mean that  This is the single most ridicules statement I have seen on sailnet and wrong on every single account.


----------



## guitarguy56

Christian... Agree... many foods are low cost, low budget if you know how to use the local cuisine... in the tropics many foods are what we call 'vianda' which is simply boiled batata, green bananas, plantains, yames, malanga, calabasa, and then marinated with bacalao cooked with olive oil, onions, and garlic... add a little aji-oli (garlic/lime butter sauce) and you are good for the rest of the day... another tasty dish is mashed plantains with crushed chicharonees and garlic baked or fried in olive oil... and it's had with fresh chicken soup.or fish, such a meal cost $$$ at any restaurant in the tropics.


----------



## guitarguy56

So did the Russian guy that recently bought the $500 sailboat have $$$ a month to circumnavigate the oceans as many think or is he doing it on the cheap?


----------



## MikeOReilly

krisscross said:


> If I was going to cruise overseas I would stock up on basic food items (non-perishables) here in US. Food is quite cheap here, especially when you buy it in bulk.


Actually, that's kinda what I'm doing right now. I've got another four or five months before we head off. During the _too cold to work on the boat_ months up here I've been drying fresh fruits and veggies as the come on sale. My plan is to leave with at least 6 months of food dried and preserved for long-term storage. Since it will last for years (even some meats) if done right, this will be our food safety blanket while we figure out how to make life afloat sustainable.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Don0190 said:


> The question isn't whether you CAN do all the above, it is whether you WANT to. If you want to it seems a lot less trouble to live in tent under a bridge somewhere.


Don, for some reason I like you. I think we would enjoy each other's company. But all I feel for you right now is a kind of sad pity. Your postings here seem to emanate from a place of fear -- and of loathing of those who won't see the world in your small way.

Please, go enjoy your $3,000/month thread. You obviously have nothing constructive to contribute here, and we clearly have nothing of value for you. Why you insist on trying to drag this thread down saddens and bemuses me.


----------



## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> You obviously have nothing constructive to contribute here, and we clearly have nothing of value for you. Why you insist on trying to drag this thread down saddens and bemuses me.


I'm not trying to drag it down at all, I'm trying to get an answer and if it turns out the real budget is $500/1000/1500 so be it (though it is unknown). From my point of view there are "defenders" of the thread more interested in protecting their viewpoint than answering the question.

But then everything I say is wrong, even though they came right out of the thread postings


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

MikeOReilly said:


> Don, .....But all I feel for you right now is a kind of sad pity. Your postings here seem to emanate from a place of fear -- and of loathing of those who won't see the world in your small way.
> 
> Why you insist on trying to drag this thread down saddens and bemuses me.


Well, I agree with Don. I think many of the dreamers who think they can do it on two sheckles are deluded.

I do agree that each of us should stick to the threads of our own budget brackets.... However, i recokon you'all oughta have another look at dons "some closing Thoughts" and stop at the "in the end if you want to cruise on the cheap"

His point is absolutely correct. Anyone can have a short cruise on $500 per month. I did indeed do that for a month or so last year (a little bit forced!) but so far this year ive spent $3,000 on boat parts already and its only June! Oooops, december! Damn it all its only April. Bugger me calendar!

If you want to sail into the sunset for an extended time you need to put in all the costs he's babbling about. At least be cognisant that they exist.



Mark <------- going back to the cruising on $25,000 per week thread!


----------



## christian.hess

FEAR IS A POWERFUL 



drug

there I said it

reminds me of when I was an 18 year old kid, graduated early from high school and set sail on a leaky yet restored wooden boat into the sunset

sunset was el salvador for me...

I left with a tiller pilot, a grumpy 76 year old as crew and we made it...fought a bunch, actually had some good times...but we had vastly different persepectives on life...

yet we made it...

If I would of listened to all the naysayers, nitpickers, perfeccionists, and pro at the clubhouse Id be a vastly different man than I am today

thats not a bragging point but simply a reality, ive learned so much and still yearn to learn more and experience more...that I die a little every time someone is just so obstinate.

Im sorry I dont have a spreadsheet of all the poo paper I spent my hard spent dollars for Don to see but like I mentioned above

FEAR IS A POWERFUL DRUG

and what I find hilarious is dons first sentence that we only hear what we want to

man if you had a mirror don your face would explode

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT

listen and read man....


----------



## guitarguy56

Don0190 said:


> I give up, you guys only what to heard and believe what you want to. I was interested in what you are spending to do it on the cheap and all the answer you provide is "yes". I thought there maybe something to be learned and considered.
> 
> Some closing thoughts:
> -if I load up my boat with food,water and fuel I could anchor and spent $0 for months, that doesn't mean I'm cruising on $0/mo (maybe not as my anchor and chain cost me $1000 to buy)
> - if you motored up the ICW last month, but didn't motor this month, your fuel budget isn't $0
> - if you don't wear clothes because you are a guy, well ....
> - if you buy $700-7000 of fancy electronics before you leave, but none for the next few years, you electronic toy upgrade budget isn't $0
> - if you use your boat equipment but didn't replace any the last few months, your budget to do so isn't $0 as you have to someday
> - if you don't do any repair and maintenance on your boat because you did a major refit prior to going and then 2 years later, you didn't really spend $0 on maintenance for 2 years
> - if you don't use a credit card because someone MAY steal it (which the card people eat all but $50 if you don't report it, and that you should be smart enough to have more than 1) and instead somehow feel it is better to waste money on ATM fees then that is crazy
> - if you avoid credit cards because SOME places don't take them so you don't use them at all, that is just as crazy
> - if you don't use credit cards because there isn't a bank around, well I don't really understand why you need a bank around, but it sounds that there are ATMs so the whole thing is doubtful
> - if you buy a new dinghy and outboard so you can anchor out, but don't have to replace for 10 years where is the money coming from 10 years from now if you didn't budget for it
> - I could go on and on but what would be the period, I believe the reason none of you are willing to provide the budget is that it will show you aren't doing it except for once in a while once the "it depends" are factored in because "it depends" still cost money like above and falls into one of the above type of examples
> 
> In the end if you what to cruise on the cheap:
> - don't eat meat unless you caught it yourself
> - don't drink (anything other than water)
> - don't get anything that may need refrigeration (it is going to cost you somehow to get it cold)
> - don't replace boat equipment unless you can find used or free parts
> - don't stay in marinas, ever
> - don't stay in places where you will have to use a marina that expects you to have to pay to use their docks, showers, water, etc
> - don't have a motor in you boat
> - don't sightsee unless you can walk to it and it is free
> - only travel to Central American of Southeast Asia, but be selective of those even
> - don't have insurance for anything
> 
> The question isn't whether you CAN do all the above, it is whether you WANT to. If you want to it seems a lot less trouble to live in tent under a bridge somewhere.


This is truly a sad and almost worthless post... Don...

I make very very good money... I don't need to be on this thread... doesn't mean I can't help the guys here trying to make it on less money than the $3000 thread... I'm not bashing them... I have no qualms about paying those bank fees... I wasn't complaining about them just pointing them out?

Anything you do will cost money... when you stepped out your door this morning it costs money on the house or apartment you live in, stepped into a car there's tons of dollars for that cost to have the privilage to drive to work, I see you have a 43 footer... it's costing you I'm sure dearly for the slip and maintenance fees... doesn't mean someone else found a cheaper and less costly way of doing things... the thread is to find a way to better solve the financial aspects to cruise cheaper not the psychological aspect to prevent others from doing so... and unfortunately you and others have dug your toes into something you intend never to do and that is cruise on less than $500...

The $3000 thread awaits you...


----------



## Don L

gee now it is down to a personal attack and I'm full of fear with an exploding face


----------



## bljones

MikeOReilly said:


> postings here seem to emanate from a place of fear --


I think that applies to both sides of the minimal budget question. the defenders fear it can't be done, the detractors fear it can.

Look, here's a simple test. For the next 30 days, live on $500, outside of your fixed dirt payments: rent/mortgage/utilities/car payments. Live as simply as you would WANT to live, live like you are cruising. If you're under $500, great! If you are not...

...Let us know how much it cost.

That figure + 20% (food cost and currency fluctuation allowance) is your bare minimum, no cushion, no emergency- fund, if-anything-breaks-you're-done budget.

That is YOUR budget. Someone else's budget will be different and frankly, who cares how anyone else cruises?- figure out what makes sense for YOU.


----------



## barefootnavigator

christian.hess said:


> FEAR IS A POWERFUL
> 
> drug
> 
> there I said it
> 
> reminds me of when I was an 18 year old kid, graduated early from high school and set sail on a leaky yet restored wooden boat into the sunset
> 
> sunset was el salvador for me...
> 
> I left with a tiller pilot, a grumpy 76 year old as crew and we made it...fought a bunch, actually had some good times...but we had vastly different persepectives on life...
> 
> yet we made it...
> 
> If I would of listened to all the naysayers, nitpickers, perfeccionists, and pro at the clubhouse Id be a vastly different man than I am today
> 
> thats not a bragging point but simply a reality, ive learned so much and still yearn to learn more and experience more...that I die a little every time someone is just so obstinate.
> 
> Im sorry I dont have a spreadsheet of all the poo paper I spent my hard spent dollars for Don to see but like I mentioned above
> 
> FEAR IS A POWERFUL DRUG
> 
> and what I find hilarious is dons first sentence that we only hear what we want to
> 
> man if you had a mirror don your face would explode
> 
> WITH ALL DUE RESPECT
> 
> listen and read man....


I did the same thing you did at the same age I sailed down to Baja using a place-mat from the Redsails Inn as a chart, it had a picture of the Baja peninsula on it. I was on a 26' Seaquest, basically a Coronado 25 with a clipper bow. I became an engine-less sailor on day 2 when my motor blew up. I arrived safe and sound in Cabo, when I paddled my surfboard into the beach an old man asked if my surfboard was my dingy, i said no man its my life-raft. We became very good friends and eventually he taught me the lost art of barefoot navigation. I have sailed thousands of miles in many oceans since those days, but never have I felt more accomplished than the day I rounded Cabo Falso.


----------



## UnionPacific

Don, i feel you miss the point.
If you do a major refit, you may do it while working. If you spend the money on all of these things prior to leaving they cannot be added to a "budget" because you are not actively spending money on these items.

EG. If i buy a new chart plotter, it may last 30 years. I shall not figure $500/390 months. 
I bought a dinghy that will last more then 10 years. i will not count that. 
If i stock up on food, and fill the freezer, and buy 500# of rice, that is not in my budget either. 

Solar is free, after you buy the setup, and may last 30 years (right now they don't know yet) 
Batteries may need replacing, so will anchor chain, anchors, line, sails, moving electrical parts (water pump ect) so these would fit into a budget. $500 a month is easy. I would rather spend the money when working, then to put it in a cruising budget for when there is no income.


----------



## Don L

bljones said:


> Look, here's a simple test. For the next 30 days, live on $500, outside of your fixed dirt payments: rent/mortgage/utilities/car payments. Live as simply as you would WANT to live, live like you are cruising. If you're under $500, great! If you are not...
> 
> ...Let us know how much it cost.


Plan on doing it for at least 12 months in a row and average it out to get an almost real number.


----------



## MikeOReilly

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I do agree that each of us should stick to the threads of our own budget brackets.... However, i recokon you'all oughta have another look at dons "some closing Thoughts" and stop at the "in the end if you want to cruise on the cheap"


Mark, if you (and Don) would care to read the thread you'd see that there was a consensus very early on that most of these points are a given. Those here have moved on from these obvious points, and are trying to have a constructive discussion about how to live inexpensively.


----------



## christian.hess

don my statement was not a personal attack Im sorry if you felt that way.

I have and others already posted expenses, many times now...they are for all intents and porpuses approximations, and mostly above 500...especially in my case 10 years later

My point was that you say we or me or whoever only want to hear that it can be done while you dont think for some reason that your are doing the same saying it cant

honestly this thread is losing some echo in the sense that this is not about can it be done or not

IT CAN

the point now has become wether or not you should...

if it suits you

if you like it...

does that make sense?

there was an awesome post a few pages back saying its about EXPECTATIONS

that just sums up this thread for me at least

I mean I have posted a bunch of stuff here, hopefully for good that shows even what bank card I use, when and how

how I wash, use water, eat, cook, poo etc...

if you cant transpose that to your current lifestyle and boat then that means you cant....

Ill leave with this litte thought

when I was in thailand 6 years or so ago getting ready to head off to sri lanka...there was a catalonian(from barcelona, spain) solo sailor who made a living complaining about his lack of money

yet he was in thailand cruising...!!!!!!!!!!!

other cruisers gave him money just so he would shutup...and he did, cruised a little more and did the whole crying game again

so you might even try that option as its free! ajajajajaajajajaja


----------



## Minnesail

Don0190 said:


> The question isn't whether you CAN do all the above, it is whether you WANT to. If you want to it seems a lot less trouble to live in tent under a bridge somewhere.


I don't know, living under a bridge gets expensive. First, bridges can fall down! I would never live under a bridge without an emergency transponder to help first responders find me under the rubble.

And you can't really cook, it would attract wolves. You basically have to eat every meal in a restaurant.

Oh, and the hobos! You'll need to be heavily armed to protect yourself from rabid hobos. Count on at least $200/month in ammunition.

Once you factor in canvas repair, tent insurance, and high-speed wireless broadband I just don't see you anyone could live under a bridge for less than $3000 a month.


----------



## barefootnavigator

Don0190 said:


> Plan on doing it for at least 12 months in a row and average it out to get an almost real number.


I've been doing this test for about 5 years, every year it gets cheaper and easier. 500 a month is a no brainier but then again the most complex system on my boat is the galley sink. I love to sail, if I wanted a house I would buy one. What works for me is that I never tried to make my boat a house, its a boat that I live on happily I love the challenge and I love living off the grid. My boat is my dream and every inch of her screams with beauty and simplicity. We all have our own boats to sail holly ****, I just realized I'm the one percent


----------



## bljones

barefootnavigator said:


> I've been doing this test for about 5 years, every year it gets cheaper and easier. 500 a month is a no brainier


That sure isn't what you said in post #6 on the first page of this thread. You said it was scary.


----------



## krisscross

Don0190 said:


> Some closing thoughts:
> -if I load up my boat with food,water and fuel I could anchor and spent $0 for months, that doesn't mean I'm cruising on $0/mo...


You really think anybody thinks like that? 
In this example buying provisions in bulk where it is cheap saves you a lot of money in general. If you want to cruise for 20 months and your boat is big enough, you can easily stow away 1000 lbs of rice and various beans which will set you back not more than $1500 - that is $75 per month for basic food needs, and I seriously doubt you will use as much as 1.5 lbs of dry grains and beans per day for a couple. 
I know that some folks here think they would rather die than eat like that but for others it is a fairly reasonable proposition.


----------



## barefootnavigator

It is? whats your point? I have chronicled my journey for 7 years both through sailing rags on my blog and face to face with the dozens of clients who's boats I outfit and help to sail away. I dont have any secrets  BTW I am more afraid of water than any other thing on earth! YES ITS CAN BE VERY SCARY


----------



## christian.hess

Minnesail said:


> I don't know, living under a bridge gets expensive. First, bridges can fall down! I would never live under a bridge without an emergency transponder to help first responders find me under the rubble.
> 
> And you can't really cook, it would attract wolves. You basically have to eat every meal in a restaurant.
> 
> Oh, and the hobos! You'll need to be heavily armed to protect yourself from rabid hobos. Count on at least $200/month in ammunition.
> 
> Once you factor in canvas repair, tent insurance, and high-speed wireless broadband I just don't see you anyone could live under a bridge for less than $3000 a month.


if I had coffee in my mouth it would of been all over the screen reading this

kudos for the comedic break, love it!

jajajaja

thanks


----------



## MikeOReilly

Now that we've gone through the fear and loathing saga, can we get back to the useful discussions? I am curious to hear about how people manage financial transactions away from their home currency. Seems to me the only way to do it inexpensively is to work in cash, but conversion costs will hit somewhere. Debit or even credit cards offer convenience, but those ATM fees are killers, let alone the unfair conversion rates the banks give us. The only way around that would be to take out lots at a time (say, your $500/month budget ).


----------



## guitarguy56

Don0190 said:


> gee now it is down to a personal attack and I'm full of fear with an exploding face


It's unfortunate you see it as we're attacking you which is not... we simply do not see your way or agree with you... simple way of saying this is your fear is that of taking your sailboat out on less than $500... $800... $1000... etc... not until that number reaches the proverbial $3000 and up range... must be nice to have that type of disposable income but many posting here do not... :laugher


----------



## bljones

barefootnavigator said:


> It is? whats your point? I have chronicled my journey for 7 years both through sailing rags on my blog and face to face with the dozens of clients who's boats I outfit and help to sail away. I dont have any secrets  BTW I am more afraid of water than any other thing on earth! YES ITS CAN BE VERY SCARY


Slow your roll there, skippy, and go back and re-read your post- 


barefootnavigator said:


> ".... My post is because like many the plain truth is that this can be very scary and I'm seeking positive reinforcement that I'm not insane or at least seeking other with the same mental capacity who can give me examples of what they have done abroad."


Considering your post was regarding BUDGET not sailing, the inference is that your skinny BUDGET is scary, and my point is that you now say, 78 pages later that it is a no-brainer...
it isn't. which is why there is 78 pages of discussion.
And if it really was a no-brainer, then you wouldn't have been posting asking for feedback...because you were right, it IS scary.


----------



## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> Now that we've gone through the fear and loathing saga, can we get back to the useful discussions? I am curious to hear about how people manage financial transactions away from their home currency. Seems to me the only way to do it inexpensively is to work in cash, but conversion costs will hit somewhere. Debit or even credit cards offer convenience, but those ATM fees are killers, let alone the unfair conversion rates the banks give us. The only way around that would be to take out lots at a time (say, your $500/month budget ).


Agree... when I went to China for the first time... I needed Chinese currency so I went to my local bank and requested $1000 in Chinese RMB... this is what my associate in Shanghai told me to do so I had plenty to pay my way without using my credit card... the bank charged me $35 U.S. for this... but it was a lot cheaper than going to China and pulling $1000 out of the Chinese bank... once there I used a particular bank to pull money out and the fee was no different than what I pay in Montreal... in fact it was cheaper... I did not get the International Transfer fees... but I think the best method is carry the greenback anywhere you go in the world and you will get better service and up front buying power.


----------



## Don L

guess I was wrong, not attacking me, only using my name

Mike I don't see a way around the exchange fees unless you are swapping via barter. If you take cash out the ATM you pay the bank fee of the transaction plus the exchange rate they chose. If you personally go to the bank you still pay an exchange fee and the bank of course isn't going to give you the deal they can get and are going to make profit on it. And both of these there is a second exchange fee involved if you end up with extra local currency.

I still feel that credit card use is the best answer for any place that accepts them assuming you have gotten a fee free card. The exchange fee is the best you probably can expect as it most likely is an interbank exchange and all done electronically. Then you pay the card in your home currency electronically as well.

I just don't see a plus to adding middlemen (local bank) to the mix.


----------



## barefootnavigator

bljones said:


> Slow your roll there, skippy, and go back and re-read your post-
> 
> Considering your post was regarding BUDGET not sailing, the inference is that your skinny BUDGET is scary, and my point is that you now say, 78 pages later that it is a no-brainer...
> it isn't. which is why there is 78 pages of discussion.
> And if it really was a no-brainer, then you wouldn't have been posting asking for feedback...because you were right, it IS scary.


I think you missed the whole point of my post, living off of 500 per month is a no brainier, sailing off without a million dollars in the bank is scary, I have been doing this O(sailing and voyaging)for 27 years and have yet to meet a single person who didn't worry about the long term financial aspects. You are welcome to take my words out of context but you aren't doing anyone any favors, people will read these words for years to come and they do so in hopes of cutting the dock lines and following some form of dream what ever it is. Some of us choose to take a chance and leave while we are young enough to enjoy sailing for what it is. That's what this post is for. Yes do read my words I'm a big fraidy cat and I'm out on an open ended voyage with no destination. I don't care what I do or how far I go as long as I am free


----------



## outbound

Sure wish you guys went back to concrete suggestions. Some were great and I learned a lot. One of the reasons some folks on the 3k/m are on the 3k/m thread is they respect and learn from all those who will allow it. This culture war stuff just gets in the way.


----------



## Don L

baking your own bread on the boat - cost savings or not when everything is factored in (not counting the nice warm fresh part)?


----------



## MikeOReilly

Don0190 said:


> Mike I don't see a way around the exchange fees unless you are swapping via barter. If you take cash out the ATM you pay the bank fee of the transaction plus the exchange rate they chose. If you personally go to the bank you still pay an exchange fee and the bank of course isn't going to give you the deal they can get and are going to make profit on it. And both of these there is a second exchange fee involved if you end up with extra local currency.
> 
> I still feel that credit card use is the best answer for any place that accepts them assuming you have gotten a fee free card. The exchange fee is the best you probably can expect as it most likely is an interbank exchange and all done electronically. Then you pay the card in your home currency electronically as well.


I suppose... But how is that different that changing your currency for local? I take my wad of Canadian $$$ and change for American $$ using some reputable exchanger like a bank (OK, "reputable" may not apply here, but you get my drift). Don't I only pay the exchange cost -- or do they always tack on an additional transaction fee? If so, then my zero foreign transaction fee VISA card would be cheaper -- assuming VISA gives me the same exchange rate.


----------



## guitarguy56

outbound said:


> Sure wish you guys went back to concrete suggestions. Some were great and I learned a lot. One of the reasons some folks on the 3k/m are on the 3k/m thread is they respect and learn from all those who will allow it. This culture war stuff just gets in the way.


Not sure I agree with this... if we all were on the $3000 thread hashing out can we live on this amount another thread would open up on 'Can we live on $6000' thereby telling those on the $3000 thread you can't make it on that amount, etc... respect has nothing to do with this until those that believe you can't make it try to make it gospel.


----------



## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> I suppose... But how is that different that changing your currency for local? I take my wad of Canadian $$$ and change for American $$ using some reputable exchanger like a bank (OK, "reputable" may not apply here, but you get my drift). Don't I only pay the exchange cost -- or do they always tack on an additional transaction fee? If so, then my zero foreign transaction fee VISA card would be cheaper -- assuming VISA gives me the same exchange rate.


You are exchanging with a middleman who has to make money when they convert your CAN$ back to his local. He isn't going to pay the best rate and is going to be making his money between the bank rate and what he just gave you for the rate.


----------



## Don L

guitarguy56 said:


> Not sure I agree with this... if we all were on the $3000 thread hashing out can we live on this amount another thread would open up on 'Can we live on $6000' thereby telling those on the $3000 thread you can't make it on that amount, etc... respect has nothing to do with this until those that believe you can't make it try to make it gospel.


This is off topic but if you look at the $3k/mo thread there are lots of people saying it can not be done (enjoyably). There is even a $5k/mo on the "other" cruiser site and it also has people who say this.

Which is the whole point for collecting as many actual real life examples so you can see what they doing, where they are doing it, and how long they have done it for, in order to decide where your goals fit in. From this my goal number has changed a lot over the 7 years since I got this money hole in the water fantasy.


----------



## krisscross

Don0190 said:


> baking your own bread on the boat - cost savings or not when everything is factored in (not counting the nice warm fresh part)?


Good point. Fuel for cooking can be a significant cost and storage factor. I am experimenting with solar oven cooking while on land. I'm not sure if you can bake bread that way but cooking rice and beans is easy (just takes longer). If you have a grill and some firewood, you can use it to make pancakes and stuff I call 'fried tack' which keeps for days and even weeks. Again, that is something that appeals to folks who like 'camping life', not everybody.


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## barefootnavigator

I wrote this for some sailing rag a while back, might be fitting here for the low budget guys 
My loving wife swears to me that size doesn't matter. But does it? I was recently told that my boat is too small. Living in the boat yard I meet all types: boaters, builders, workers, and dreamers. We fall somewhere in between the lines. At a whopping 24 feet with a displacement of 6500lbs, by today's standards our boat is considered small by any measure. I recently read an article titled Pocket Cruiser Of The Year. It was a 38-footer. I guess our boat is now considered a dinghy. Our Allegra 24 designed by Fred Bingham has 6'1" standing headroom and four berths. The shortest, our double, measures 6'5". The Roo has a full galley with a two-burner propane stove and oven. Even though we choose to use a cedar bucket we do have a very nice enclosed head which is small enough to be considered seaworthy but large enough to actually pull your pants down while inside. With two adults and two dogs this might sound small but it works for us. Because we are financially challenged there aren't many boats in our price range to choose from. Even if we go up to 30' we won't get much more usable room. Having such a small boat we can get away with an outboard engine and no marine head. This leaves us with the usable space of a well-built 30-footer with no prop drag and lighter displacement. Being of a traditional design but built with modern building techniques and materials, our boat is incredibly strong but lighter and faster than she would appear. Sure we could sell our boat and put a nice down payment on a larger boat. Then in 20 years when it is payed off we could spend another three years rebuilding everything on it and sail away. I would be 62, Lizzie would be 50, and we would have boat that is older than the one we currently own. By then we might not be quite as adventurous as we are now and may not be able to happily live without hot water, plumbing, full electronics, and all of the power it takes to run these luxuries. We can't support fancy electronics so we don't have them. Instead we have to be better sailors and navigators adding to the pleasure and satisfaction of cruising. Outfitting and refitting our boat cost less because marine equipment is basically priced by the pound, inch, or foot. We also purchase used equipment where we can. After all, once you use something it really isn't new anymore. Is it really worth paying more than double to have gear that is new for one use? With a very small initial investment we don't feel the need to carry insurance. Every part of our boat takes less time to maintain and is easier on the budget, leaving us more time to play which is what cruising is really all about.


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## UnionPacific

krisscross said:


> Good point. Fuel for cooking can be a significant cost and storage factor. I am experimenting with solar oven cooking while on land. I'm not sure if you can bake bread that way but cooking rice and beans is easy (just takes longer). If you have a grill and some firewood, you can use it to make pancakes and stuff I call 'fried tack' which keeps for days and even weeks. Again, that is something that appeals to folks who like 'camping life', not everybody.


We get 3 months out of 20 pounds. and we cook A LOT.


----------



## Minnesail

Don0190 said:


> baking your own bread on the boat - cost savings or not when everything is factored in (not counting the nice warm fresh part)?


I imagine it depends where you are in the world, but in the US if you go to the grocery store it will cost you more to buy the ingredients for bread than to buy a loaf of bread.

I still bake bread, but I do it because it tastes better not because it saves money.

(Note: This may not apply if you're stocking up on hundreds of pounds of flour, like some people here are suggesting.)


----------



## MikeOReilly

Don0190 said:


> baking your own bread on the boat - cost savings or not when everything is factored in (not counting the nice warm fresh part)?


Now here's one I can answer with some certainty. In fact, I'm baking my weekly bread as I type (hence all my free time today). Even at Canadian prices for organic, monk-carressed flour, vs the cheapest store-bought breads I save.

$8 for 2 kg of flour (I did say it was monk-carressed) makes at least 10 loaves. The cheapest bread I can buy is about $2/loaf, so it is $20 for store bought vs ~$10 (when you add in the miscellaneous ingredients like salt, oil, etc.). That's ~50% savings right there. If I bought flour in larger volumes I could lower the cost considerably.

Beyond that, it's healthier making your own. But most importantly, it impresses the hell out of everyone b/c people think it is hard to make bread. Making bread from scratch is one of the easiest things to do in the kitchen ... but don't tell my wife that .

P.S. Didn't consider fuel costs ... hmm, might skew it a bit higher. Still say it's cheaper to make your own.


----------



## Don L

Minnesail said:


> I imagine it depends where you are in the world


Yeah I'm sure you are right as to it depends (hate that word in a budget thread) of where you are. I have beer brewing stuff and am sure that is a cost savings in the Bahamas, but probably a waste of time and money in maybe Costa Rico.


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## Minnesail

Really? Maybe I need to check my flour numbers again.

But I agree, home-baked bread is the best. Especially when the flour has been caressed by monks.


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## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> . Making bread from scratch is one of the easiest things to do in the kitchen ... but don't tell my wife that .


I haven't tried baking bread yet, but maybe I have the wrong "Baking Bread" book as it sounds hard in it. Kind of like the first "How to sail" books I read


----------



## krisscross

UnionPacific said:


> We get 3 months out of 20 pounds. and we cook A LOT.


Wow, I'm impressed. Is that for propane fuel? What kind of a stove?


----------



## krisscross

MikeOReilly said:


> Even at Canadian prices for organic, monk-carressed flour, vs the cheapest store-bought breads I save.


Yes, home made bread is awesome. Good bread from a store costs a lot, but it also takes a lot of work to make decent bread. When it is cold I like pancakes - faster to make and nicely greasy (I use cast iron skillet). Cheap too.


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## tdw

Its been a while since i've done much cash foreign exchange but in the past I found Amex to be the best for exchange rates and low fees.


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## Lou452

Don0190 said:


> I'm not really sure what using a bug sprayer to take a shower has a lot to do with cheap cruising. Isn't that really about life on a boat with small water tanks for a long passage. Even in places that charge for water it is pretty inexpensive in the big picture and if you can go ashore and get water, you should be able to find a shower.
> 
> Still waiting for actual cruise expenses (without it depends some months answers) and proposed budgets. I would think that those planning on the $500/mo budget would be really interested in where they should plan their money to be be going toward.


Let me try  If you do not have a propane tank to heat your water or heat a smaller amount of water you will save $ If you go ashore and pay for a shower you spend $ Water cost is on the rise. Baltimore cost are up 140%, Atlanta 223% Water will be the new oil. 
If you are in port you will still have to pump out the water you showered in if you use less you will pump out less this will save $ 
The big picture is made up of many it is a mosaic . If you look closer and try harder you might see ? The first thing about this is the will. One needs to want to. 
Kind regards, Lou


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## tdw

Of course if your fixed income is $500/m and you can suplement that some other way then is it valid to say you are cruising on $500/m ? I think it probably is but of course earning money while cruising is not as easy as it might sound.


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## guitarguy56

Don0190 said:


> I can drift some with it.
> 
> The Americans you are referring to to are special and what they are doing is referring to their self as being a loose loser. These are the one's trying to cruise on $200/mo plus a welfare check with their best "special" friend who is also their first cousin and the smarter one, having made it though the sixth grade.
> 
> I hope I have cleared up it mate. (did I do that right?)


Be very wary of our so called friend here.... really offensive in my book! From the $3000 thread...

PS... Now getting nasty email from him!


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## outbound

But it goes back to what you put into the boat before leaving. For instance if you blew cash to put in solar and wind you heat your water with electricity. No propane use except for cooking. If you blew the money on a kite you sail times you would have motored. Less diesel use. If you put in the ssb and modem email/ weather becomes cheaper,if you are making your own electricity and have a water maker no water expense and so forth. After living awhile on ramen,potatoes and spaghetti learned it's often more expensive to be poor. Simple things like having the ready to stock up on something when a good deal comes by. Affording something well made that won't wear out so fast and be cheaper in the long run.


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## Bene505

travlineasy said:


> It depends upon the marina - some had free wi fi, with no passwords etc... required, while others required that you stayed there in order to access it. Also, many cities and even small towns have free WI-FI, including Baltimore, Norfolk, Miami, and many others - no password required. Keep in mind, though, these are unsecured sites therefore, this is not where you would do your online checking and bill paying unless you want the entire free world to have access to all your information. It's just a great way to keep in touch via email and to access sites such as this one.
> 
> Gary


If you have an SSL connection (little lock symbol on the web browser), your commnications are secure. If you don't have that symbol, don't enter your password.

Email is another story altogether.

Regards,
Brad


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## Group9

I know plenty of people who have convinced themselves it's cheaper to drive a brand new $40,000 car with payments, than it is to drive a fifteen year old one that's payed for. Same with boats.

Read "The Millionaire Next Door" and then decide what their cruising boat and budget would actually look like.


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## joethecobbler

1 gallon of alcohol a month.$15-20 a gallon. cooking 3 meals a day, baking etc. for three people. less if we grill or cook on the woodstove.
I was surprised the origo stove /oven was that economical to use.


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## MikeOReilly

krisscross said:


> Yes, home made bread is awesome. Good bread from a store costs a lot, but it also takes a lot of work to make decent bread. When it is cold I like pancakes - faster to make and nicely greasy (I use cast iron skillet). Cheap too.


Pancakes are good too, as are all manner of pan breads (bannock-style). But making a yeast bread, or even a sourdough bread, is not really that difficult.

_Basic bread_:


Put warm water into a mixing bowl. Add table spoon or two of sugar (or honey). Toss in some yeast or sourdough. Wait until it froths up. 
Throw in some salt (~tea spoon/cup water) and some oil (~table spoon/cup of water). 
Toss in enough flour so you can stir vigourously without it splashing all over the place: consistency of runny ketchup or BBQ sauce.
Beat the hell out of it with a spoon for a few minutes -- until the batter takes on a slight sheen
Toss in more flour until you can kneed it without it being too sticky. 
Work out all your frustrations by punching and kneading away. 
Put a warm towel over the bowl and leave it in a warm place. Let it rise.
Punch it down and kneed it a few more times over the intervening hours.
Place dough in pans, and cook until it pops out of pan and sounds a bit hollow when you knock on the bottom of the loaf.
You can augment this basic approach with lots of additions. I like putting hearty grains into the batter (bran, cornmeal, flax), or I spice it up with savoury spices. Add some eggs to make it more moist, or spray and coat the cooking bread to produce a thicker, chewier crust. You can use the same approach to make buns, or add more oil to make pizza dough.

The best thing about bread is that it is hard to fail completely. Even a bad loaf is still pretty good.


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## guitarguy56

I plan on making one of these but much sturdier that can either fold up or the half barrel cookers... I've seen them in action and campers using them just never thought it might be practical on a boat... but it should work the same on a sunny day...

How to Make and Use a Solar Oven: 19 Steps (with Pictures)

It's also posted on the baking bread thread.


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## MikeOReilly

guitarguy56 said:


> I plan on making one of these but much sturdier that can either fold up or the half barrel cookers... I've seen them in action and campers using them just never thought it might be practical on a boat... but it should work the same on a sunny day...


I've never used a solar oven, but know of people who have. When the sun is consistent and high, I imagine it would work really well. There's plans for one in _Sailing the Farm_. It is very similar to the solar dehydrator I'm almost finished building. Perhaps I can use it for both. Hmmmmm....



joethecobbler said:


> 1 gallon of alcohol a month.$15-20 a gallon. cooking 3 meals a day, baking etc. for three people. less if we grill or cook on the wood stove. I was surprised the origo stove /oven was that economical to use.


Our previous boat had an old pressure alcohol stove. Never had a problem with it. Worked great. We used about a gallon/week (cooking all meals), which I though was pretty good. The new Origos sound amazing.

I now have a propane system, and just bought a new Force-10 stove/oven. Propane is very efficient. A tank seems to last forever. I'm told is now pretty easy to find just about everywhere in the world, but adapting to local fittings may be a challenge. We'll see...


----------



## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> I've never used a solar oven, but know of people who have. When the sun is consistent and high, I imagine it would work really well. There's plans for one in _Sailing the Farm_. It is very similar to the solar dehydrator I'm almost finished building. Perhaps I can use it for both. Hmmmmm....


Please post your photos...

Yes... it is an interesting project I'll undertake when I get home this May... I have an induction stove cooker and microwave oven on the boat now... I don't have a conventional oven so I researched recipes for breads/muffins using the microwave and it look good as any breads/muffins baked... I love fresh baked bread and so the sun oven will serve our uses... I have the small grill that attaches to the rear rail but I've never used it so it may be tossed... use that space for an extra solar panel... better use of space.

On a different note I replaced the original Origo alcohol stove with the induction stove... never looked back... the induction stove uses very little electrical energy because it is 90% efficient so as long as my batteries are topped off no problem... the extra solar panels should help during cruising.


----------



## Omatako

tdw said:


> Of course if your fixed income is $500/m and you can suplement that some other way then is it valid to say you are cruising on $500/m ? I think it probably is but of course earning money while cruising is not as easy as it might sound.


Yes I think it is. Supplementing your budget with an income must be construed as part of the $500 budget. It's no different to fixing the wind generator on the $3000/month boat alongside in exchange for two bottles of nice wine.

To me, the $500 budget means that I am reducing my existing financial pool at that rate. Whatever I do to stay under that reduction is validly part of the budget.

On the other hand I guess it could be said that if you're working and earning, then you essentially have stopped cruising for that period. Some members may have read an account by Fatty Goodlander where they spent a protracted time in Malaysia and both got jobs - IIRC he said they left there with more money than they arrived with. But were they still cruising just because they were in a foreign country? Maybe not.


----------



## Omatako

On the matter of baking aboard, for us it is about having fresh bread on a voyage whenever we want it but there are some issues.

The holding of huge amounts of flour aboard is risky with weevils and flour going off and not baking very well so we rarely keep more that what we'll use on that specific voyage.

Bread baked on board does not keep for long before going stale and this is not conducive to baking more than one, maybe two loaves at a time (If there is a solution to this I'd be pleased to hear it). So that puts a burden on fuel resources because bringing an oven up to temperature to bake one loaf is hardly efficient.

But that's more about wasting fuel than about cost. So we have a barbecue with a closed top which we cook on frequently because it's very pleasant out on the back deck (especially in the tropics) so we generally try to bake a loaf or two in the barbecue before turning it off.


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## manatee

Omatako said:


> On the matter of baking aboard, for us it is about having fresh bread on a voyage whenever we want it but there are some issues.
> 
> The holding of huge amounts of flour aboard is risky with weevils and flour going off and not baking very well so we rarely keep more that what we'll use on that specific voyage.
> 
> Bread baked on board does not keep for long before going stale and this is not conducive to baking more than one, maybe two loaves at a time (If there is a solution to this I'd be pleased to hear it). So that puts a burden on fuel resources because bringing an oven up to temperature to bake one loaf is hardly efficient.
> 
> But that's more about wasting fuel than about cost. So we have a barbecue with a closed top which we cook on frequently because it's very pleasant out on the back deck (especially in the tropics) so we generally try to bake a loaf or two in the barbecue before turning it off.


 When fitting out for the cruise, if you put your dry foodstuffs (flour, sugar, meal, grits, masa, beans, pasta ......) in airtight/watertight bags or containers and freeze them for a couple of days, they will last a long time. Freezing kills the eggs & larva of undesirable lifeforms. This also gives you a handy running inventory/usage rate check, and protection against losing an entire supply of something from a single container failure. If you have a freezer aboard, freeze your extra bread, bring it out to thaw a day before you need it.

No freezer? Paximadia. This works with most breads, ymmv: Slice the bread, dry it a couple of hours (about 175*F), pack in an airtight container. Homemade hardtack, rusk, journey-bread, twice-baked bread --- it has many names around the world, an ancient way of preserving valuable food that still has a place today.

 Paximadia


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## MikeOReilly

guitarguy56 said:


> _Originally Posted by MikeOReilly:
> There's plans for one in Sailing the Farm. It is very similar to the solar dehydrator I'm almost finished building. Perhaps I can use it for both. Hmmmmm....
> _
> Please post your photos...


I will ... just as soon as I've got it done. I've got the cover sewn. I still need to build the frames, and I'm modifying it from the original plans to allow for easier access by using velcro connections.


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## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> I will ... just as soon as I've got it done. I've got the cover sewn. I still need to build the frames, and I'm modifying it from the original plans to allow for easier access by using velcro connections.


Thanks... I'm sure it'll turn out great.

I just downloaded the Sailing the Farm book... interesting read and almost from a distant past... love reading these sort of books... another project on my list would be a small desalination R/O unit that makes at least 10-15 gallons a day and does not use up excessive drain on the battery or that I have to hook it up to the genny... a solar distillation that can also be kept on the deck it wouldn't make more than a gallon per day or less...


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## outbound

Find putting flour,rice,cereals etc. in plastic freezer bags in Tupperware like containers works well. That way plastic bags don't get ripped and you can still squeeze all the air out after each use. Throw uncooked rice in bottom of Tupperware. May fill Tupperware with multiple bags of things to save space. Do it as soon as stuff brought on boat.


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## MikeOReilly

I'm in the midst of a major food drying project. My plan is to leave with about 6 months worth of dried veggies and meat. I'm vacuum sealing as I go along, but I was thinking of getting a bunch of these kinds of storage containers. I would store the bagged food inside these larger container.









The Container Store > Dry Food Vault

Anyone try them?


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## travlin-easy

Mike, six months of food is a lot of storage, even on a relatively large boat. I carried about two months with me, and that took up lots of space. You may want to reconsider the amount of food to carry. In my case, I used a lot of canned goods, jarred sauces, and the meats were either smoked or frozen. Things you really don't think about taking up space tend to mount up as you begin stowing away your larder. I was amazed at how quickly those large storage areas seemed to fill.

Gary


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## Rhapsody-NS27

outbound said:


> Find putting flour,rice,cereals etc. in plastic freezer bags in Tupperware like containers works well. That way plastic bags don't get ripped and you can still squeeze all the air out after each use. Throw uncooked rice in bottom of Tupperware. May fill Tupperware with multiple bags of things to save space. Do it as soon as stuff brought on boat.


I have a few of these pop-top containers at the house for flour, sugar and rice. I'm getting smaller one's for the boat to try them out. Says airtight so I would hope moisture would be limited while the lid is closed. Some of them fit nicely on a couple shelves inside one of the boats cabinets.

OXO Good Grips® Square Food Storage Pop Containers

OXO Good Grips® Rectangular Food Storage Pop Containers


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## outbound

Nice thing about having staples in plastic bags is you have much better control of the pour. Stuff less likely to end up on the sole when it's bumpy.


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## christian.hess

well guys...Im out...

hope I had some good info to share...it was fun sharing with like minded people...

however

getting stupid pms by blind folk was not in the books for me

peace


----------



## guitarguy56

christian.hess said:


> well guys...Im out...
> 
> hope I had some good info to share...it was fun sharing with like minded people...
> 
> however
> 
> getting stupid pms by blind folk was not in the books for me
> 
> peace


Christian... I got some idiotic and frankly childish PM's from probably the same person... I have alerted the moderators... hope they resolve this... hope you don't leave the forum... you have too much to offer!


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## manatee

christian.hess said:


> well guys...Im out...
> 
> hope I had some good info to share...it was fun sharing with like minded people...
> 
> however
> 
> getting stupid pms by blind folk was not in the books for me
> 
> peace


Stick around, Christian, we enjoy your input. Don't let one punk win by driving you off. Remember what Farley Mowat's friend says in "The Boat Who Wouldn't Float":

"Illegitimi non carborundum."


----------



## MikeOReilly

travlineasy said:


> Mike, six months of food is a lot of storage, even on a relatively large boat. I carried about two months with me, and that took up lots of space. You may want to reconsider the amount of food to carry. In my case, I used a lot of canned goods, jarred sauces, and the meats were either smoked or frozen. Things you really don't think about taking up space tend to mount up as you begin stowing away your larder. I was amazed at how quickly those large storage areas seemed to fill.


Thanks Gary. Our boat was designed with long distance cruising in mind. We have quite a lot of storage space. But in addition, that's the beauty of dried food. It takes up a tiny fraction of the space. We easily carry months of food in a small volume. Put it in perspective, a weeks worth of veggies could fit in the space taken by one large can of beans. Six months -- no problem.


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## barefootnavigator

manatee said:


> Stick around, Christian, we enjoy your input. Don't let one punk win by driving you off. Remember what Farley Mowat's friend says in "The Boat Who Wouldn't Float":
> 
> "Illegitimi non carborundum."


Christian I hope you don't go and if you do it will be a loss to all of us. As far as the nay sayers ignore them they are the ones who know it all yet have never been a hundred miles off shore, they are too scared of life so they want to crush your dreams because they will never achieve a single one of theirs. Your experience speaks volumes. They are too busy polishing their tillers even though they haven't used them in years. I wouldn't count on moderators on this forum either, the moderation is very one sided. Next time one of those tiller polishers tries to blow smoke up your ass turn around and see what he has to say. This of course will get moderated but everyone that needs to will have read it by them. Fair winds and following seas my friend, Ill see you out there.


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## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> well guys...Im out...getting stupid pms by blind folk was not in the books for me





guitarguy56 said:


> Christian... I got some idiotic and frankly childish PM's from probably the same person... I have alerted the moderators... hope they resolve this... hope you don't leave the forum... you have too much to offer!


Please do not let them drag you down Christian. I'm with guitarguy56. Please stay. I'm sure the mods can rectify the situation. And please do out the idiot who is harassing you on PM. We should all know.


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## christian.hess

ill be lurking..jeje

btw how do you stop people pming you? is that possible?

thanks for the kind words guys

see ya out there


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## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> Please do not let them drag you down Christian. I'm with guitarguy56. Please stay. I'm sure the mods can rectify the situation. And please do out the idiot who is harassing you on PM. We should all know.


I have alerted the moderators and they are working on it but sometimes I see bias, blind moderators, etc...


----------



## MikeOReilly

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> I have a few of these pop-top containers at the house for flour, sugar and rice. I'm getting smaller one's for the boat to try them out. Says airtight so I would hope moisture would be limited while the lid is closed. Some of them fit nicely on a couple shelves inside one of the boats cabinets.


These look very good Daniel. How do they work? Is that a value that you can create a minor vacuum with? Is that how they work?


----------



## manatee

christian.hess said:


> ill be lurking..jeje
> 
> btw how do you stop people pming you? is that possible?
> 
> thanks for the kind words guys
> 
> see ya out there


Here you go, from the FAQ:

Dealing with Troublesome Users

Can I block posts, emails and messages from specific users?

If there are particular members that bother you and you do not want to see their posts or receive Private Messages and Emails from them, then you can add these members to your 'Ignore List'. There are several ways to do this:

Through your User Control Panel: User CP, Settings & Options, Edit Ignore List. Then, type their name into the empty text box and click 'Okay'.


----------



## MikeOReilly

guitarguy56 said:


> I have alerted the moderators and they are working on it but sometimes I see bias, blind moderators, etc...


I have not been harassed ... so far. Who is it? Or is this person hiding behind an unknown alias?

Shine a light on them and this childish bully will slink back to his/her cave.


----------



## manatee

MikeOReilly said:


> These look very good Daniel. How do they work? Is that a value that you can create a minor vacuum with? Is that how they work?


I get mine free. 
These hold just a little less than five pounds of most dry stores, are stackable, and square for maximum shelf use. You'd probably want to tape the lid down on all but the duty container.


----------



## Markwesti

Christian , if you bail they will like that don't let them like that . Come on now mate how about a little jajaja !


----------



## christian.hess

je

JAJAJAJAJA

screw it...he/she can suck it

im back, what was I thinking! ajajaja

now back to fun voyaging stuff:

I like sushi rice containers that are stackable too and they are clear....so you can see the stuff if sealed or not, water intrusion, mice, cockroaches, etc...etc...

we had a bad case of rice insects(forget the name in english, but gorgojo in spanish) and we had to dump quite a few lbs of rice overboard cause it was too bad to eat and sort through...

we also had flour go bad...

anywhoo vaccum sealing stuff is the way to do it nowadays...I have a cheap one I use at the restaurant so hopefully I will put it to use this hopefully upcoming small trip

peace guys

christian


----------



## outbound

Has anyone vacuum bagged clothes? Will a small handheld vacuum be enough or even a hand pump? Like to store out of season clothes under forward bunk.


----------



## guitarguy56

christian.hess said:


> je
> 
> JAJAJAJAJA
> 
> screw it...he/she can suck it
> 
> im back, what was I thinking! ajajaja
> 
> now back to fun voyaging stuff:
> 
> I like sushi rice containers that are stackable too and they are clear....so you can see the stuff if sealed or not, water intrusion, mice, cockroaches, etc...etc...
> 
> we had a bad case of rice insects(forget the name in english, but gorgojo in spanish) and we had to dump quite a few lbs of rice overboard cause it was too bad to eat and sort through...
> 
> we also had flour go bad...
> 
> anywhoo vaccum sealing stuff is the way to do it nowadays...I have a cheap one I use at the restaurant so hopefully I will put it to use this hopefully upcoming small trip
> 
> peace guys
> 
> christian


.
Glad you are staying on board... life is too short to worry about people who do this to build up their self esteem... instead life will be short for them.


----------



## guitarguy56

outbound said:


> Has anyone vacuum bagged clothes? Will a small handheld vacuum be enough or even a hand pump? Like to store out of season clothes under forward bunk.


My wife buys these bags for our winter clothes and also for winterizing the heavy blankets and sheets...

Buy Ziploc® Space Bag® 6-Piece Combo Set from Bed Bath & Beyond

I'm sure you can buy them at Walmart and other dept. stores...

Another option is vacuum sealing portions of meals for one day, this way you only open the package of food for that day only... we do this with the vacuum sealer in the kitchen... we have never had the insect problem except for one time when the bird food ended up with all sorts of insects... no more after vacuum sealing.


----------



## Lou452

Mayo comes in a square clear plastic jar here in My little part of the world. The lid is a screw on . They make good water tight storage. The added benefit of being clear helps. You can also write on plastic with a black sharpie marker. This helps if you can only see the dark blue lid and not the clear jar.
Kind Regards , Lou


----------



## manatee

guitarguy56 said:


> .
> Glad you are staying on board... life is too short to worry about people who do this to build up their self esteem... instead life will be short for them.


*SECONDED*

Christian, you name names, I'll break out the torches & pitchforks, guitarguy you go rouse the villagers....

(---love those old Frankenstein movies.)


----------



## manatee

outbound said:


> Has anyone vacuum bagged clothes? Will a small handheld vacuum be enough or even a hand pump? Like to store out of season clothes under forward bunk.


Have you tried this?

Make Your Own Vacuum Sealed Storage Bags - wikiHow


----------



## okawbow

My wife puts rice, flour, beans, etc., in the freezer for 2 weeks before vacuum bagging. The cold kills the bugs that are present in most grains and cereals, and vacuum bagging keeps other bugs out. We've stored rice and flour this way for years, and no bugs.


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

MikeOReilly said:


> These look very good Daniel. How do they work? Is that a value that you can create a minor vacuum with? Is that how they work?


no, no valve.

The top is a button. When you press it, it pulls the bottom panel to the top, expanding the seal around it against the sides of the container. It does take some effort to pull the top off when it's sealed.

Attached is pictures I just took showing the top button open and the bottom panel. The grey on the edge is the seal that feels/looks like it's made from silicone.


----------



## mrhoneydew

Ok... so I've read every word of this thread and good gravy are y'all long-winded!  This has been a great thread to keep up on. I thought it might be useful to sum up what I have learned:

1. Outfitting to go voyaging is not the same as voyaging on $500/mo. And yes, there are costs for maintenance/replacement that will come up and replacing big-ticket items would leave an unplanned hole in any regular cruiser's budget. There are ways to deal with it if you are resourceful and flexible.

So...

2. The basic rule of K.I.S.S. applies. Go small, go now. You don't need all of that "stuff." Down the line it will only end up costing you more time and $.

However...

3. Having some form of chunk of change for a rainy day at the outset is a good idea because... odds are it's gonna rain at some point.

But...

4. Don't obsess too much about whatever that specific amount should be or even, really, about what every line item on your cruising budget is going to add up to month to month. It isn't consistent and should be considered more of a guideline than anything else.

And...

5. It CAN be done (and has been done). If you are in a frame of mind to listen and to inquire you will find the answers you are looking for. If you are not and you insist it cannot be done, the same applies.

In that vein...

6. There are grade A, #1 a-holes out there who are bent on bringing you down. Don't listen to them and don't respond to them. It only breathes life into their pathetic little flame that sits in place of their own unrealized cruising dream. This doesn't mean anyone with a contrary opinion or question is an a-hole... those can be helpful in fleshing out ideas.

Back to what's useful...

7. Buy in bulk and preserve it in useful portions. Can things, dehydrate things, vacuum seal things... In short, play "zombie apocalypse afloat." (Just please don't blow my head off with a shotgun if I happen to wander down your dock one day.) Not that I particularly look like a zombie. I think.

And, as an aside...

8. A little punctuation goes a long ways. 300 words strung together without a single period is a little tough to read without having it sound like an auctioneer going off reading it in my head. Please? Not trying to be a grammar nazi here. 

Any point in the thread I missed?


----------



## DHusk

MrHoneyDew,

An excellent post which makes the first 839 expendable, especially most of Don190 replies, who is still waiting for someone to post their $500/monthly budget while the rest of us moved on to cruising inexpensively, never mind the exact monthly amount, 800 posts ago. 

Perhaps the moderators should eliminate the rest of this thread and just post yours with the same title. It would save every future reader hours of reading, while providing the same conclusions!


----------



## copacabana

On the topic of containers for dry goods like rice or beans, those plastic soft drink PET bottles are great for that. They are unbreakable and completely airtight and can be replaced anywhere in the world. An added bonus is you can pour out the contents in a controlled way without making a mess underway. They also fit well under the floorboards!


----------



## MikeOReilly

Great to see you're sticking with us Christian, and nice to see some new posters. We have been a little long-winded, but that's all part of the fun .

On the topic of vacuum sealers, I can't recall if I've mentioned this here, but I'm darn impressed with my recently-aquired Foodsaver sealer. I've had a number of vacuum sealers over the years, and this one blows (or sucks ) all the others away. I bought the 12v version, which will make it even easier to run on board. And the bags are very tough. They want you to use their bags, but apparently (I haven't tried this yet), you can use any sort of thick bag.

Not affiliated in any way with the company, but if anyone is looking to invest some money in a good cruising tool, look at these Foodsaver sealers.


----------



## jerryrlitton

JonEisberg said:


> Hmmm, not many McD's in places like the Bahamas, for instance, last time I was there...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're overlooking the utility and importance of internet access for many cruisers, today... Obtaining weather info, keeping in touch with family/aging parents, and so on... Oh, and ordering replacement parts for watermakers...
> 
> Yes, that's the case in a place like Newfoundland, as well...
> 
> But in many more popular cruising destinations, it seems to be increasingly difficult to find free wifi... The Bahamas are a good example, I've found your best chances of doing so are in the more remote spots... Places where cruisers gather in droves, the Abacos, Georgetown/Exumas, etc seem to have gone almost exclusively to for profit subscription services, a free unsecured connection can be all but impossible to find...


JohnE and MikeR, I was searching for a free wifi in Phuket when I discovered Aeventyr60 engaged in other than wifi communications.

Out of the graciousness of his heart and hard work he negotiated some spectacular deals in local wifi spots. He knows you cheap SOB's who are trying to survive on the whiff of an oily rag and the rice ans beans diet will love the 2 for one offer.

He commented that the only thing worse than free wifi in a girly bar is sailing with a smart phone and using the latest sailing app.

I will be in for a rough week sailing in the spectacular cruising grounds of Thailand. Without my smart phone, drinking ice cold beer, whipping lines, trimming sheets, stargazing, beautiful girls and pissing over the rail without a harness. I may get by on less than 500USD for the week however I will wager I will have more enjoyable experience than anyone else here.

See below, print and bring in to receive you 2 for 1.

Jerry


----------



## krisscross

I wonder what is the best distance to avoid catching what that girl has but still getting a decent wi-fi reception.


----------



## christian.hess

typical thailand lady! jajajaja

all I remember from thailand(well not all) was the constant "cap on ca" yelling on the streets

funny as hell

it was a fun country though


----------



## mrhoneydew

krisscross said:


> I wonder what is the best distance to avoid catching what that girl has but still getting a decent wi-fi reception.


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!! :laugher


----------



## guitarguy56

krisscross said:


> I wonder what is the best distance to avoid catching what that girl has but still getting a decent wi-fi reception.


Good one... this is where a good wifi booster is worth the cost. :laugher


----------



## mrhoneydew

Yeah... a booster is a good idea... wonder if there is one for chlamydea...?


----------



## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> Great to see you're sticking with us Christian, and nice to see some new posters. We have been a little long-winded, but that's all part of the fun .
> 
> On the topic of vacuum sealers, I can't recall if I've mentioned this here, but I'm darn impressed with my recently-aquired Foodsaver sealer. I've had a number of vacuum sealers over the years, and this one blows (or sucks ) all the others away. I bought the 12v version, which will make it even easier to run on board. And the bags are very tough. They want you to use their bags, but apparently (I haven't tried this yet), you can use any sort of thick bag.
> 
> Not affiliated in any way with the company, but if anyone is looking to invest some money in a good cruising tool, look at these Foodsaver sealers.


Mike we bought a plastic seam sealer and use it to make our own bags... I have a marine aquarium and bought a box of bags used to ship specimens... they are heavy duty gauge 3 mil bags and make our own sized bags to use with the kitchen sealer... works great.

Here is the bag we use:

Plastic Bags

PB8x20x3
3 mil thick plastic bag
8" wide x 20"long
$0.13
$0.11
CASE/1000
$70.04

Yes I know it's a 1000 bags but we used it in our marine aquarium shipping business before we stopped but still have the bags and other items.

Now it seems it's getting good use... it's food grade bags so no worry there.


----------



## MikeOReilly

guitarguy56 said:


> Here is the bag we use:
> 
> Plastic Bags
> 
> PB8x20x3
> 3 mil thick plastic bag
> 8" wide x 20"long
> $0.13
> $0.11
> CASE/1000
> $70.04


Wow, that's a great price. Thanks for the link.

I work it out to be like $0.04/ft of bag vs about $0.50/ft for the Foodsaver bags I can buy online. But I don't know if I'd use a 1000 bags in a lifetime ... that's 1,666 ft of 8" wide bags!


----------



## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> Wow, that's a great price. Thanks for the link.
> 
> I work it out to be like $0.04/ft of bag vs about $0.50/ft for the Foodsaver bags I can buy online. But I don't know if I'd use a 1000 bags in a lifetime ... that's 1,666 ft of 8" wide bags!


Maybe split the cost with several cruisers waiting to take the plunge... I'm sure they won't need 1000 bags... it takes a lot to go through 1000 bags and to date I don't think I've used 50 bags yet... we cut them up into 1/2's or 1/3'rds and use the seam sealer to seal the ends... works great with the Foodsaver...


----------



## MikeOReilly

guitarguy56 said:


> Maybe split the cost with several cruisers waiting to take the plunge... I'm sure they won't need 1000 bags... it takes a lot to go through 1000 bags and to date I don't think I've used 50 bags yet... we cut them up into 1/2's or 1/3'rds and use the seam sealer to seal the ends... works great with the Foodsaver...


Yes, I'll keep that in mind for the future. I bought a 100 ft of bag rolls with the Foodsaver, so I'll need to go through those first. But this has got me thinking about the idea of a _Frugal Cruiser's Coop_. Hmmmmmm


----------



## neverknow

jerryrlitton said:


> JohnE and MikeR, I was searching for a free wifi in Phuket when I discovered Aeventyr60 engaged in other than wifi communications.
> 
> Out of the graciousness of his heart and hard work he negotiated some spectacular deals in local wifi spots. He knows you cheap SOB's who are trying to survive on the whiff of an oily rag and the rice ans beans diet will love the 2 for one offer.
> 
> He commented that the only thing worse than free wifi in a girly bar is sailing with a smart phone and using the latest sailing app.
> 
> I will be in for a rough week sailing in the spectacular cruising grounds of Thailand. Without my smart phone, drinking ice cold beer, whipping lines, trimming sheets, stargazing, beautiful girls and pissing over the rail without a harness. I may get by on less than 500USD for the week however I will wager I will have more enjoyable experience than anyone else here.
> 
> See below, print and bring in to receive you 2 for 1.
> 
> Jerry


My concern would be getting hacked. Like they are not capturing every bit of data you use their WIFI for?


----------



## christian.hess

guitarguy56 said:


> Good one... this is where a good wifi booster is worth the cost. :laugher


ooh Im very interested in a wifi booster...or a usb booster for the modems they use for pay as you go wireless like we have down here

I use TIGO ts a 3g wireless modem...but the signal sucks in the mountains or even at the beach(its better at the beach)

any ideas on how to make the signal better for that?

thanks


----------



## guitarguy56

christian.hess said:


> ooh Im very interested in a wifi booster...or a usb booster for the modems they use for pay as you go wireless like we have down here
> 
> I use TIGO ts a 3g wireless modem...but the signal sucks in the mountains or even at the beach(its better at the beach)
> 
> any ideas on how to make the signal better for that?
> 
> thanks


Christian... it's really simple but takes fabricating a bracket to hold the antenna...

Get these three products shown...

This one goes on the mast somewhere with a bracket...






this cable runs from the antenna to the booster/amplifier, find this similar cable at an electronics store or online:

Turmode 6 feet Wifi Antenna Cable | Walmart.ca

get this type of wifi booster (several brands available along with different prices)

IEEE 802.11b/g Amplifier/booster

AF1 - 1 WATT USB WIFI ADAPTER WITH 30' CABLE






Connect the three pieces together and you will see a tremendous boost in your wifi signal and pull in many wifi hotspots...

PS... forgot to mention, remove one of the antennas or antenna from your existing wifi device and replace with the booster cable (N-connector).


----------



## DHusk

I've read many books about cruisers experiences and in one of them the couple was varnishing tin cans to protect them from salt and sea and extend the shelf life. I understand cans can deteriorate over time in the harsh environment found at sea. With all the talk of vacuum sealing food, would it make sense to do the same with cans? Would it even work to protect the cans?


----------



## MikeOReilly

DHusk said:


> I've read many books about cruisers experiences and in one of them the couple was varnishing tin cans to protect them from salt and sea and extend the shelf life. I understand cans can deteriorate over time in the harsh environment found at sea. With all the talk of vacuum sealing food, would it make sense to do the same with cans? Would it even work to protect the cans?


Hmmm, I've never heard of anyone doing that, but I can't see why it wouldn't work. Probably cheaper, and just as easy, to slap on the varnish though.

I'd be curious to hear how many people actually varnish their cans. So far all my cruising has been in fresh water, so no issues at all with rusting cans. Do extended sea voyagers still do this?


----------



## travlin-easy

Never had a tin can rust in 60 years on the water, and while I know they will eventually rust, tin by it's very nature is pretty much rust resistant. This would especially be true with the alloys used for canning foods. Many of the foods that are stored in tin cans are quite high in sodium, therefore you would think they would succumb to rust in a very short time. However, this is never the case, mainly because of the tiny alloys used for canning foods is highly resistant to corrosion from salts. I saw this on the discover channel a few years ago. 

Good Luck,

Gary


----------



## guitarguy56

Most canneries use cans with the inside of the can with a special paint or enamel that protects the inside of the can from rusting or have the food in contact with the metal.
This is the most important reason when shopping never to buy cans that are dented or damaged as the liner would have broken and the rusting is poisoning the food.

Here is everything you might need to know about storing cans in a boat especially for extended periods.

How to Store Food on a Boat, Part 9: Canned Goods


----------



## jerryrlitton

neverknow said:


> My concern would be getting hacked. Like they are not capturing every bit of data you use their WIFI for?


Dude, if you were actually in there and really using wifi we have other issues happening....


----------



## DHusk

Thanks for the replies on storing tin cans. Sounds like we don't need to worry about rusts, but should make sure they are packed in a manner that will keep them from shifting about too much.


----------



## manatee

DHusk said:


> Thanks for the replies on storing tin cans. Sounds like we don't need to worry about rusts, but should make sure they are packed in a manner that will keep them from shifting about too much.


The varnish was probably more to protect the labels rather than the cans. The paper and glue do not endure high humidity well. Clear acrylic varnish is easily found in brush-on and spray-on forms. Let it dry a day or two before packing cans away, or you'll end up with the cans glued together.


----------



## MikeOReilly

manatee said:


> The varnish was probably more to protect the labels rather than the cans. The paper and glue do not endure high humidity well. Clear acrylic varnish is easily found in brush-on and spray-on forms. Let it dry a day or two before packing cans away, or you'll end up with the cans glued together.


I've read that you should remove all labels from cans to protect against bug infestations on board. As I recall, the insect larvae can come board in the glues.

... Am I mistaken on this?


----------



## mrhoneydew

I have read the same things. It is recommended to transfer everything that has a paper and/or cardboard component to packaging or labeling to a more durable container (plastic) before it even goes on the boat. Especially in the tropics where there are generally more bugs.


----------



## tdw

manatee said:


> The varnish was probably more to protect the labels rather than the cans. The paper and glue do not endure high humidity well. Clear acrylic varnish is easily found in brush-on and spray-on forms. Let it dry a day or two before packing cans away, or you'll end up with the cans glued together.


Spot on. Nowadays of course very few cans still have paper labels. Indeed are paper labels still around ? Sometimes still see them on beer bottles but even there a vanishing species.

The other old trick was to coat eggs in vaseline. Apparently makes them last longer but also apparently it only works with eggs that have never been refrigerated.

You know it would probably be worthwhile for anyone wanting to cruise on a very limited budget to get hold of books by some of the old timers. Many of them cruised without refrigeration of any kind and of very limited budgets.


----------



## travlin-easy

Watch that old stuff, Fuzzy - I resemble that remark! 

Gary


----------



## tdw

travlineasy said:


> Watch that old stuff, Fuzzy - I resemble that remark!
> 
> Gary


What's a decade between friends ?


----------



## aeventyr60

tdw said:


> Spot on. Nowadays of course very few cans still have paper labels. Indeed are paper labels still around ? Sometimes still see them on beer bottles but even there a vanishing species.
> 
> The other old trick was to coat eggs in vaseline. Apparently makes them last longer but also apparently it only works with eggs that have never been refrigerated.
> 
> You know it would probably be worthwhile for anyone wanting to cruise on a very limited budget to get hold of books by some of the old timers. Many of them cruised without refrigeration of any kind and of very limited budgets.


Same result can be had by turnong th egg carton over frequently, coats the inside of the egg preventing air from getting inside.

Times change, populations grow, supplies more readily available now then smeetons, roth, pardeys books tell. . Less need for vast quantities of stores...sure if you are really going remote then stock up with many of these good storage notes. We eat almost exclusively fresh food as supplies are never more then few islands away. Bon Appetite!


----------



## Lou452

tdw said:


> Spot on. Nowadays of course very few cans still have paper labels. Indeed are paper labels still around ? Sometimes still see them on beer bottles but even there a vanishing species.
> 
> The other old trick was to coat eggs in vaseline. Apparently makes them last longer but also apparently it only works with eggs that have never been refrigerated.
> 
> You know it would probably be worthwhile for anyone wanting to cruise on a very limited budget to get hold of books by some of the old timers. Many of them cruised without refrigeration of any kind and of very limited budgets.


I do not remember the book might have been "Simply Sailing" by Connie Mcbride ? This book talks about cans and the varnish. Living without refrigeration and food storage. How to keep bugs and pest from getting on board. One thing that was suggested was to anchor out. Most bugs and mice do not like to swim. I can not recall but this book also mentions If the boat is on the hard coat the stands with heavy grease. It would seem bugs do not like to crawl in grease. If you have to be at a dock. The dock line can act as a bridge. A little plastic bag and some grease will slow progress across the bridge.
I am only passing ideas not true experience . I have used tape for trees in my yard. duck tape wound sticky side out slows down ants for days. The ants will build a body bridge and cross on the dead after a period of time. 
Kind Regards, Lou


----------



## outbound

Wife got ugly yellow rubber placemats with hundreds of holes in them at a buck a piece at the dollar store. Put them on shelves and bottom of lockers. Put single layer of paper towel on them. Spray bottom of cans with Pam( we use olive oil type). Sides of cans usually don't rust. Rust usually starts where bottom meets sides. No rust. No toxins near food. Done this way wood liners of cabinets don't get stained. Just saying.


----------



## outbound

outbound said:


> Wife got ugly yellow rubber placemats with hundreds of holes in them at a buck a piece at the dollar store. Put them on shelves and bottom of lockers. Put single layer of paper towel on them. Spray bottom of cans with Pam( we use olive oil type). Sides of cans usually don't rust. Rust usually starts where bottom meets sides. No rust. No toxins near food. Done this way wood liners of cabinets don't get stained. Just saying.


 3k guys need food too


----------



## MikeOReilly

tdw said:


> Spot on. Nowadays of course very few cans still have paper labels. Indeed are paper labels still around ? Sometimes still see them on beer bottles but even there a vanishing species.
> 
> The other old trick was to coat eggs in vaseline. Apparently makes them last longer but also apparently it only works with eggs that have never been refrigerated.
> 
> You know it would probably be worthwhile for anyone wanting to cruise on a very limited budget to get hold of books by some of the old timers. Many of them cruised without refrigeration of any kind and of very limited budgets.


Hmmm, perhaps it depends on location. I was just wondering through my local grocery. The vast majority of cans have paper labels. Some have those plastic wrap things, but most have paper. Perhaps it's b/c Canada produces a lot of paper??

Eggs that have never been refrigerated, and more importantly have never had their shells cleaned and polished, will keep a long time in a cool place without refrigeration. Apparently it's a North American issue. We here like to have everything pristine, so remove the barrier coating that seals the egg shells. We then have to refrigerate the eggs to keep them from going bad. That's why vaseline is used -- it re-seals the eggs. But if we didn't remove the protective layer it would be unnecessary to reseal. I've had farm direct eggs, and they keep a long time without cooling.

I have cruised for six+ weeks at a time without refrigeration. It's not hard to live without a fridge, but you do have to approach food storage differently. This is why I'm into serious food drying right now. We're going to carry about 6 months of basic supplies with us, and it will be nearly as good as fresh. Canning, salting and smoking are other traditional methods of preserving without refrigeration. For me, I think frugal cruising will include a life without a fridge.

... Although I do love my cold beer .


----------



## Lou452

Right now I am getting "farm eggs" They are different than "store eggs". The shell is thicker. They have not been in refrigeration. They have not been washed. I think the washing might remove some of the eggs natural protection. That is my thought. Farm eggs keep longer. you need to turn them. The farm chickens have no roster close at hand so the eggs are not going to have a surprise. I have no facts to back my thoughts. 
If an egg is bad it seems to float in a glass of water. I can say this has worked seen it proved true in my short time testing. I do not have enough test or any test records for a true study.  Next if you open the egg in a cup or glass before you mix it or use it with others and it smells bad it might be bad. 
I find store eggs are always bigger and you might have to adjust a recipe. A farm egg seems to be a little richer. They are both good eggs. Right here in my location farm eggs could cost more. I am getting a deal. Even if I was not I like to learn and try interesting food. 
I might have posted things that everyone already knows about eggs .
Kind Regards, Lou


----------



## Lou452

10k guys do not like bugs ? but it is kind of trendy to eat bugs :laugher Cover them in candy and other recipes Man vs wild and all that. Taste like chicken?:laugher Ok enough I will stop 
Peace, Lou


----------



## neverknow

jerryrlitton said:


> Dude, if you were actually in there and really using wifi we have other issues happening....


You know, after 10 mins or so you have to come up with something to do... LOL

Perhaps google search for a shot of penicillin?


----------



## Lou452

I feel a life style that is healthy will tend to cost less in the long run. Invasive bugs and stuff that bleach will not wash off should be avoided.  If you get to cheap it will cost you in the end. We all have an inner voice we can listen or not listen to. The sense that makes your hair stand up might make you encourage a stranger, wait one day for Weather, lock that door. not linger at this area but stay longer at the next, the list goes on.

Sometimes the bad and expensive things find ways to avoid any defense. That is when we do what we can with what we have. That is when the kindness of a stranger can mean so much. This is when we make friends.  This is how we truly give and earn true wealth. $500 or 3k it works the same
Kind regards, Lou


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## guitarguy56

Regarding canned foods... I limit the amount of canned foods we buy at the house... especially vegetables, normally the only canned foods we buy are tuna fish, sardines, or some other seafood meats. We try to buy fresh vegetables and make our own sauces... 

Vegetables treated at the canneries include cleaning with Oxyclean, F-3170 (lye based cleaner-sanitizer), BXA-325 (sanitizer), and Chlorinall-G (alkaline cleaner)... there are others but not sure because most canneries do not lists the chemicals used for cleaning before canning... so I do not buy canned vegetables. 

Now this will pose a problem in cruising since vegetables will need to be fresh or blanched at home/ports and frozen... keeping it frozen will be a challenge but I see many are installing dedicated freezers on their vessels, these are larger boats with higher electrical energy output... so I will have to wait to have a freezer installed on my next sailboat before we can cruise for extended periods.


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## aeventyr60

So mark the top of the can with a black sharpie: C for corn, P peas, BB baked beans, BBB black beans etc...then you won't have to worry about labels or having to pull the can all the way out of you deep looker to look at the label.

I advise a thin sharpie s for TDW, XXXX is a lot to put on a a beer can.


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## MikeOReilly

+1 on marking cans with a sharpie _aeventyr60_. That's our plan.

Thanks for all the info on cans _guitarguy56_. Probably learned more than I wanted to know . This reinforces my plans to dry food for long-term cruising. My goal is to leave with a lot, but also to dry along the way when we are able to buy inexpensive fresh fruits and veggies.

I agree with you _Lou452_ that sometimes going cheap is not always the least expensive option. Quality sometimes (but not always) costs more up front, but if it lasts (if you can amortize the cost over a long period), then it can be cheaper in the long run.

Of course the trick is to know what you really need ... not always easy to do.


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## manatee

guitarguy56 said:


> Regarding canned foods... I limit the amount of canned foods we buy at the house... especially vegetables, normally the only canned foods we buy are tuna fish, sardines, or some other seafood meats. We try to buy fresh vegetables and make our own sauces...
> 
> Vegetables treated at the canneries include cleaning with Oxyclean, F-3170 (lye based cleaner-sanitizer), BXA-325 (sanitizer), and Chlorinall-G (alkaline cleaner)... there are others but not sure because most canneries do not lists the chemicals used for cleaning before canning... so I do not buy canned vegetables.
> 
> Now this will pose a problem in cruising since vegetables will need to be fresh or blanched at home/ports and frozen... keeping it frozen will be a challenge but I see many are installing dedicated freezers on their vessels, these are larger boats with higher electrical energy output... so I will have to wait to have a freezer installed on my next sailboat before we can cruise for extended periods.


** TMI ** 

Look up MikeOReilly's posts in this thread -- much info on drying food to preserve it. Use your intended freezer space for a cupboard full of dry-food containers. Reconstitute them by cooking or soaking.


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## tdw

I find it a little hard to believe that anyone doing the $500pm thing is going to have a freezer. Even if on your limited budget you managed to fluke one on the boat you have purchased you simply cannot afford the power bill. Whats more, fridges break down. Only needs to happen once and all that frozen produce is just so much fish food. 

We do have a freezer but a very small one. It can hold approx four days meet/fish/poultry rations for the two of us, a couple of those single serve ice creams and a couple of ice cube trays. Thats about it but it does use up a lot of juice. 

While soft around the belly me would not like to live without refrigeration (what of the beer he cried) it does cost a lot to run. 

Regarding canned food, we do keep some emergency rations, some tinned fish, olives, that kind of thing but minimal. Reality is that there is not much that comes out of a tin can that I would choose to eat. 

Beer btw is an issue. I do like drinking beer, even soft drinks from a bottle but I fear logic dictates cans.


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## Minnesail

tdw said:


> Beer btw is an issue. I do like drinking beer, even soft drinks from a bottle but I fear logic dictates cans.


Good beer in cans is making a comeback, at least here in the US! That's great news for boating. The theory is that with a really good beer you're going to pour it into a glass anyway, so it's OK to come from a can.

I'm partial to Surly Furious, but it really has no place on a low-buck thread, since it's $10 for a 4-pack


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## Lou452

Connie Mcbride an her book Simply Sailing has a some thoughts on refrigeration or the lack of it. This book is starting to get older ? Technology moves fast and picks up speed each year. One needs to judge what can and will be a benefit or a burden. 
I am not for or against refrigeration at this point. 
Her book would say it is a burden. She lays out how to plan meals without having a fridge on the boat. Many things that I thought needed refrigeration she has made a point in saying only needs to be handled correctly. We already listed Eggs. Lets add mayo, jelly, ketchup, salad dressing and other food items. She has put forth meal plans for using dried foods and canned. She will remind you that when you are underway it may not be an option to cook. Most of the time a passage will be under 20 days. 
When you are at anchor the store keeper can refrigerate and store food. 
Hale Roth points out in his book your galley will not be as nice as a meal on shore. I have to give on this. Dollar for dollar and other considerations the cook on shore has the advantage. If you have been at sea you might have saved enough to budget a treat for yourself. Sailing from one port to the next should lower your budget. There is no place to spend money underway. 
Just some thoughts, 
Kind Regards , Lou


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## Don L

tdw said:


> I find it a little hard to believe that anyone doing the $500pm thing is going to have a freezer. Even if on your limited budget you managed to fluke one on the boat you have purchased you simply cannot afford the power bill. Whats more, fridges break down. Only needs to happen once and all that frozen produce is just so much fish food.
> .


I don't see way they can not have a freezer. Seems the rules are that it doesn't matter how much is spent before leaving. So.............I ran my freezer and frig (spill over from the freezer) all last season while the boat was out on a mooring. All it took was $1600 for the solar system to power it. So for the 6 months after the solar was installed it was free to run the freezer!


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## tdw

Don0190 said:


> I don't see way they can not have a freezer. Seems the rules are that it doesn't matter how much is spent before leaving. So.............I ran my freezer and frig (spill over from the freezer) all last season why the boat was out on a mooring. All it took was $1600 for the solar system to power it. So for the 6 months after the solar was installed it was free to run the freezer!


How much solar do you have ? We have nearly 400ah. Except on absolutely cloudless days we still need to give our batteries a bit of engine assisted boost though I hope to solve this by adding one more panel. Now while diesel may not be the most expensive of fuels and running engine for an hour or so a day may not chew up too much juice it still costs and I'd have thought on such a tight budget every dime would count.

Then again on $500pm can you afford beer at all ?


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## manatee

tdw said:


> How much solar do you have ? We have nearly 400ah. Except on absolutely cloudless days we still need to give our batteries a bit of engine assisted boost though I hope to solve this by adding one more panel. Now while diesel may not be the most expensive of fuels and running engine for an hour or so a day may not chew up too much juice it still costs and I'd have thought on such a tight budget every dime would count.
> 
> Then again on $500pm can you afford beer at all ?


 Probably not the *best* beer, but even water would taste better out of this:









*
 Build a Beer Tankard*


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## guitarguy56

tdw said:


> I find it a little hard to believe that anyone doing the $500pm thing is going to have a freezer. Even if on your limited budget you managed to fluke one on the boat you have purchased you simply cannot afford the power bill. Whats more, fridges break down. Only needs to happen once and all that frozen produce is just so much fish food.
> 
> We do have a freezer but a very small one. It can hold approx four days meet/fish/poultry rations for the two of us, a couple of those single serve ice creams and a couple of ice cube trays. Thats about it but it does use up a lot of juice.
> 
> While soft around the belly me would not like to live without refrigeration (what of the beer he cried) it does cost a lot to run.
> 
> Regarding canned food, we do keep some emergency rations, some tinned fish, olives, that kind of thing but minimal. Reality is that there is not much that comes out of a tin can that I would choose to eat.
> 
> Beer btw is an issue. I do like drinking beer, even soft drinks from a bottle but I fear logic dictates cans.


If you read carefully I was not indicating the sailors wanting to live inexpensively were to get a freezer... rather I mentioned my next boat will be sized enough to have the freezer... never mind my finances because I try to help these guys and learn something in the process... my bank account has not been laid out for those to determine if I can or cannot afford to cruise on $500 or $6000 a month...


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## guitarguy56

tdw said:


> Then again on $500pm can you afford beer at all ?


I don't bother buying beer as many do... sure I'll have a cold one with friends but I prefer to spend that beer money on niceties in life... I don't smoke either and never have... so I guess I get to save more money for my cruising kitty.


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## Don L

tdw said:


> How much solar do you have ? We have nearly 400ah.
> 
> Then again on $500pm can you afford beer at all ?


what's 400ah of solar mean??????

I have a 290W solar panel and 460AH batteries. From the recorder in my solar controller the normal use most days when I wasn't on the boat (Mon to Fri evening) the system put out about 60AH before going into float. I ran it for 6 months without turning off the system (and my boxes hold a lot) and even when there had been raining/cloudy days during the week I never saw the batteries at less than 80%.

And yes I can survive with a $500pm beer budget


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## MikeOReilly

Don0190 said:


> I don't see way they can not have a freezer. Seems the rules are that it doesn't matter how much is spent before leaving. So.............I ran my freezer and frig (spill over from the freezer) all last season why the boat was out on a mooring. All it took was $1600 for the solar system to power it. So for the 6 months after the solar was installed it was free to run the freezer!


Actually, I agree with you ... kinda. For me, as someone who is not all that handy, and far from a refrigeration mechanic, a fridge/freezer is probably not sustainable. I could afford to put your system together, but when it breaks down, and it will break down, I probably won't be able to fix it. I lack the know how, and will certainly lack the money. So for me, it's not a sustainable option. For someone more capable, and certainly for someone who has a higher income, it may be perfectly fine.

I would point out, however, that a big fridge/freezer requires a lot more infrastructure to sustain it. The cooling unit is one part, but you also need a larger battery bank, which requires a larger charging system. It's a more complex system that has more paths to failure (system failure, not personal or spiritual failure). I don't need refrigeration to sustain a life afloat. I might like it, but I know how to live without it. And so could you.


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## MikeOReilly

Minnesail said:


> Good beer in cans is making a comeback, at least here in the US! That's great news for boating. The theory is that with a really good beer you're going to pour it into a glass anyway, so it's OK to come from a can.
> 
> I'm partial to Surly Furious, but it really has no place on a low-buck thread, since it's $10 for a 4-pack


It comes in cans  Oh, I'm doomed now. I guess there's nothing left for me than to move over to the $3,000/month thread.


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## Don L

speaking of beer

to save costs learn to home brew, but this depends on how much you drink, where your are, and whether you boat is even big enough to store the equipment etc.

would pay for itself quick in the Bahamas, but then does one go to the Bahamas on $500/mo?


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## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> +1 on marking cans with a sharpie _aeventyr60_. That's our plan.
> 
> Thanks for all the info on cans _guitarguy56_. Probably learned more than I wanted to know . This reinforces my plans to dry food for long-term cruising. My goal is to leave with a lot, but also to dry along the way when we are able to buy inexpensive fresh fruits and veggies.
> 
> I agree with you _Lou452_ that sometimes going cheap is not always the least expensive option. Quality sometimes (but not always) costs more up front, but if it lasts (if you can amortize the cost over a long period), then it can be cheaper in the long run.
> 
> Of course the trick is to know what you really need ... not always easy to do.


Mike sorry to scare you off... the truth is many do not know what happens behind closed doors in the food industry...

That said... we have a large tract of land and we have many fruit trees, avocados, peaches, apples, pears, pomegranate, figs, oranges, guava, grapes... too many to name (my wife and I are gardeners) so we have too many vegetables plants to name... but she does a great job of canning and drying fruits, pickling vegies, making preserves, etc... so we hardly ever buy store bought items except some staples, rice, pasta, etc... but on the boat cruising it's a different story unless we are able then to buy local items and can it on the boat which is definitely doable.


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## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> Actually, I agree with you ... kinda. For me, as someone who is not all that handy, and far from a refrigeration mechanic, a fridge/freezer is probably not sustainable. I could afford to put your system together, but when it breaks down, and it will break down, I probably won't be able to fix it. I lack the know how, and will certainly lack the money. So for me, it's not a sustainable option. For someone more capable, and certainly for someone who has a higher income, it may be perfectly fine.
> 
> I would point out, however, that a big fridge/freezer requires a lot more infrastructure to sustain it. The cooling unit is one part, but you also need a larger battery bank, which requires a larger charging system. It's a more complex system that has more paths to failure (system failure, not personal or spiritual failure). I don't need refrigeration to sustain a life afloat. I might like it, but I know how to live without it. And so could you.


My freezer/fridge is 13 years old and has needed 1 repair (I assume because there was note in the manual for some parts from the last owner and all I've spent is $10 on some weather stripping and have never had to repair it). I don't consider this as a problem.

And I just told you I power the whole thing off 1 solar panel that also takes care of lights, radio and other loads I run at anchor.

So I see no reason why I need to live without it. In fact it is a cost savings to be able to buy in bulk and freeze it.

If you are a live aboard and your freezer/frig breaks you know what you do? You buy ice (which is more expensive than the fuel to run the engine if it comes to that to recharge the batteries)


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## manatee

To me, it's not so much about budget as it is about simplicity. I prefer simple, robust systems. 

Anyone ever try a swamp cooler (evaporative cooler) on your boat? My brothers & I used one when we'd go camping in the 'Glades. You won't get ice from one, but it'll keep your butter from melting and your water cool.


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## JonEisberg

Don0190 said:


> speaking of beer
> 
> ...
> 
> would pay for itself quick in the Bahamas, but then does one go to the Bahamas on $500/mo?


Yup, one sure isn't gonna be drinking much beer in the Bahamas on the cheap, unless you brought your own with you from the States, or the DR...

One year at Rum Cay, I watched the NFC and AFC Championships in the bar at Sumner Point Marina with a small group of other cruisers, a couple of true 'minimalists' among them... Until I witnessed it, I never would have thought it was possible to nurse a SINGLE $5 Kalik through BOTH title games, one of which went into overtime... 

Myself and another couple also got stuck with over-tipping the barmaid, to make up the difference from those on a tight 'budget'...

That poor woman, she thought she'd be having Sunday dinner home with her family... She had no idea, after the Patriots won the first game, that there was still a SECOND game to be played... By the time she was hearing "One minute to play in regulation..." in the second game, she was standing by the door, ready to roll...

Needless to say, she didn't grasp the concept of "Sudden Death Overtime", at all... As far as she was concerned, that game was OVER, the announcers had said as much, and she was closing up, and going home... The few of us with 'deep pockets' bought one more round, and stuck a deal with her to at least leave the TV on after she closed, and we all watched the Giants kick the winning field goal to beat Green Bay in OT through the window, while standing outside, with one last $5 Kalik in hand... 

Classic Bahamas, there's always a way...


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## guitarguy56

manatee said:


> To me, it's not so much about budget as it is about simplicity. I prefer simple, robust systems.
> 
> Anyone ever try a swamp cooler (evaporative cooler) on your boat? My brothers & I used one when we'd go camping in the 'Glades. You won't get ice from one, but it'll keep your butter from melting and your water cool.


A small refrig that hold some quantity of cold items can be had for less than $50 on g-bay... these run on peltier cold plates and are 12v powered... surely enough to keep a 6 pack of beers cold and on solar power...

Koolatron P9 Traveller III Cooler


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## Lou452

How much phishing do you think happens on threads that have to do with $ ?

Most folks lie about how much or little money they have. This is how people get in the trap. They can not keep up with the Jones' s The boat always needs to be 2 foot bigger. This system needs to be upgraded and so on until everything hits the max. Then they can not cruise on $5000. The amount of money that seemed like enough has multiplied ten times.

It cuts the other way also. The 60+ foot sleek yacht sits alone, No one will come near it. How could this skipper tell if the deck monkey likes him or the money ? Yet he has a hard time going with less. Now he can not go anyplace because the yacht needs a professional crew. He can afford it but this just makes him a passenger. 

This is what starts class segregation. This might do more damage than race segregation. Rare is the man that can move about with ease from class to class. Many hearts grow hard and minds grow weak, trapped by themselves
Kind Regards, Lou


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## guitarguy56

Lou452 said:


> How much phishing do you think happens on threads that have to do with $ ?
> 
> Most folks lie about how much or little money they have. This is how people get in the trap. They can not keep up with the Jones' s The boat always needs to be 2 foot bigger. This system needs to be upgraded and so on until everything hits the max. Then they can not cruise on $5000. The amount of money that seemed like enough has multiplied ten times.
> 
> It cuts the other way also. The 60+ foot sleek yacht sits alone, No one will come near it. How could this skipper tell if the deck monkey likes him or the money ? Yet he has a hard time going with less. Now he can not go anyplace because the yacht needs a professional crew. He can afford it but this just makes him a passenger.
> 
> This is what starts class segregation. This might do more damage than race segregation. Rare is the man that can move about with ease from class to class. Many hearts grow hard and minds grow weak, trapped by themselves
> Kind Regards, Lou


This is so true... when I used to take my little 25 foot out each weekend as I coasted by the multitudes of 35-50 footers not only in the slips but stored in covered slips never have gone anywhere... even the liveaboards never took their boats out... just to the pump out station and back... pretty sad... many of them simply either buy a hole in the water and can't afford to take the plunge as they are riddled in debt owning the proverbial yacht... sad indeed... I'm sure they are planning their escape as many on the other millionaires thread... :laugher

This is taken from my cockpit on a Saturday morning... as you can see many of these boats in the 9 months I lived on my boat never left their slips... only to the pump out station... where are the cruising dreams?


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## MikeOReilly

Don0190 said:


> My freezer/fridge is 13 years old and has needed 1 repair (I assume because there was note in the manual for some parts from the last owner and all I've spent is $10 on some weather stripping and have never had to repair it). I don't consider this as a problem....
> 
> If you are a live aboard and your freezer/frig breaks you know what you do? You buy ice (which is more expensive than the fuel to run the engine if it comes to that to recharge the batteries)


Good for you Don, but forgive me if I don't extrapolate your experience into a broader truth. Based on my experience, and the commentary from dockside and forums cruisers, refrigeration is one of the least stable technologies people bring on board. The stories of fixing the fridge in paradise are endless. So I'm pleased you can make it work. Good on you. Let me us know how it goes when you're out there.

As for what "I" do. No, I don't buy ice. I don't need refrigeration. I like it -- keeps my beer cold. But I cruise without it. So can you. It just takes a different approach.


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## MikeOReilly

manatee said:


> To me, it's not so much about budget as it is about simplicity. I prefer simple, robust systems.


This is what guides our system choices as well. Robust systems are ones that are either very reliable, like my handheld GPS, or ones that I can fix and maintain, like my windvane or manual windlass. People with more skills can sustain more complex systems. That's why we can all come up with difference choices that are still sustainable.



manatee said:


> Anyone ever try a swamp cooler (evaporative cooler) on your boat? My brothers & I used one when we'd go camping in the 'Glades. You won't get ice from one, but it'll keep your butter from melting and your water cool.


We would use this technique to cool liquids on canoe trips all the time. I've thought about trying to build an evaporator box on the boat, but haven't yet. Might be a fun project.


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## MikeOReilly

As a quick follow up to the drying and storing of food question, I just vacuum bagged a dozen nice large green bell peppers. Space before drying: about the size of medicine ball. After drying: about the size of my gloved fist.


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## barefootnavigator

For the non cold box crowd I have been living without refrigeration for 5 years. The only thing that I have found that really needs to be refrigerated is beer. I actually don't even have an ice box, My boat came with refrigeration and it was the first thing I took out. I do have a beer bag I can hang overboard since I am sailing in cold water right now, maybe down the road I will add an ice box and there are some pretty amazing ones out there for a few hundred bucks. Cold beer has its place but warm beer is actually quite good


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## newhaul

Here ya go I just got home from grocery shopping and I spent a whole 54.47 on food for me for the next two weeks. Its food I actually like some others would not like my food choices BTW nope no rice or beans this trip just eggs soups chili fresh salads and a case of one of my faves spam that's for one person. Your costs will vary on your food choices and the number you are feeding


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## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> Good for you Don, but forgive me if I don't extrapolate your experience into a broader truth..


Hey I just told you my experience and that you could have refrigeration, if you don't want it it doesn't matter to me.

BTW - my last boat had a 26 year refrigeration system and it worked just fine and I never had any problems with it either, and that is a the real truth.


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## guitarguy56

newhaul said:


> Here ya go I just got home from grocery shopping and I spent a whole 54.47 on food for me for the next two weeks. Its food I actually like some others would not like my food choices BTW nope no rice or beans this trip just eggs soups chili fresh salads and a case of one of my faves spam that's for one person. Your costs will vary on your food choices and the number you are feeding


That's what $108 plus change... well below the $500... great... it can be done... naysayers are just that... I hope the refrigeration bit on my end has nothing to do with how some of us want to cruise without refrigeration... in most cases a chilled cold box all is that is needed... add a peltier plate to that cold box running on solar panels and you've got a small refrig running on free power... the peltier plates are very cheap...


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## Bene505

MikeOReilly said:


> Actually, I agree with you ... kinda. For me, as someone who is not all that handy, and far from a refrigeration mechanic, a fridge/freezer is probably not sustainable. I could afford to put your system together, but when it breaks down, and it will break down, I probably won't be able to fix it. I lack the know how, and will certainly lack the money. So for me, it's not a sustainable option. For someone more capable, and certainly for someone who has a higher income, it may be perfectly fine.
> 
> I would point out, however, that a big fridge/freezer requires a lot more infrastructure to sustain it. The cooling unit is one part, but you also need a larger battery bank, which requires a larger charging system. It's a more complex system that has more paths to failure (system failure, not personal or spiritual failure). I don't need refrigeration to sustain a life afloat. I might like it, but I know how to live without it. And so could you.


A well designed fridge and freezer needs no battery usage. The compressor runs only during daylight hours.

There, I said it. Using the termal inertia of ice made during the day, is cheaper in the long run that cycling your battery bank every day. It does take extra room to store the ice containers, an extra thermostat, and a small fan. (Yes the fan runs off the battery, but at a tiny fraction of the power.)

This summer, I'm using a bunch of those 1 gallon antifreeze containers in the bottom and sides of the fridge to store ice made during the day. The containers will have water in them, so they freeze at 32 degrees. We will also use one container with an antifreeze mixture in our super insulated (internal foam-lined) freezer. Both fridge and freezer also have cold plates.

All of this ought to power off one 130 watt panel, but we have a lot more solar than that, so that won't be part of my testing. I usually keep the compressor on low speed (about 2.6 amps = 31 watts), but may have to bump it up to 5 amps = 60 watts to get all the ice freezing done during the day.

I have some pictures of the setup, if anyone wants to see them.

Regards,
Brad

P.S. Learning how to install compressors and charge them is not that difficult, and the vacuum pump & gauges cost less than one visit from a fridge mechanice. I built our system, "debugged" the leaks, and charged it. We cruise with the tools and extra cans of refrigerant, in case anyone needs help along the way. Richard Kollmann's book helped. And Cleave at SeaFrost answered the odd question that I had.


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## newhaul

guitarguy56 said:


> That's what $108 plus change... well below the $500... great... it can be done... naysayers are just that... I hope the refrigeration bit on my end has nothing to do with how some of us want to cruise without refrigeration... in most cases a chilled cold box all is that is needed... add a peltier plate to that cold box running on solar panels and you've got a small refrig running on free power... the peltier plates are very cheap...


I was thinking about that they use a heat sink and fan to dissipate the heat I was wondering what others here would think of the idea using a thermostat like in a standard fridge but use a water jacket for heat disapation vice the current draw of the fan. Also that list of foods included a full case of spam on sale for a buck fifty a can so that is more than a months worth even if I ate a can a day I eat a couple cans a week but like fresh seafood when I can. Son asked so I will keep an accurate list of everything for a full month and post it at the end of the month.


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## guitarguy56

newhaul said:


> I was thinking about that they use a heat sink and fan to dissipate the heat I was wondering what others here would think of the idea using a thermostat like in a standard fridge but use a water jacket for heat disapation vice the current draw of the fan. Also that list of foods included a full case of spam on sale for a buck fifty a can so that is more than a months worth even if I ate a can a day I eat a couple cans a week but like fresh seafood when I can. Son asked so I will keep an accurate list of everything for a full month and post it at the end of the month.


Actually you sort of hit the nail on the head... cold plate technology is what we use in the aerospace industry to cool hot avionics equipment... this same technology could be used on the peltier plate to transfer heat away... the more heat you remove the colder the other side of the peltier unit... so a simple removal of heat could be copper coils attached/soldered to a copper plate and that plate attached to the peltier unit for excellent heat transfer, a small pump could be utilized to run cold saltwater/fresh water through the copper coils...

I love SPAM, grew up with it as well as spiced ham too... there are other meats in sealed bags that can also be bought that would give some variety in your diet.


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## newhaul

guitarguy56 said:


> Actually you sort of hit the nail on the head... cold plate technology is what we use in the aerospace industry to cool hot avionics equipment... this same technology could be used on the peltier plate to transfer heat away... the more heat you remove the colder the other side of the peltier unit... so a simple removal of heat could be copper coils attached/soldered to a copper plate and that plate attached to the peltier unit for excellent heat transfer, a small pump could be utilized to run cold saltwater/fresh water through the copper coils...
> 
> I love SPAM, grew up with it as well as spiced ham too... there are other meats in sealed bags that can also be bought that would give some variety in your diet.


I eat a lot of fresh caught seafood and as far as spam I really like the bacon spam with eggs. For fresh meats when I get them at the store at least around here they sell dry ice for a buck and a half a pound I use a cooler put the meats in it and the dry ice over them so when I get to the boat the meat is frozen solid there's my ice for the icebox for a couple days and it stays cold for a week or more like that I don't drink so no need for cold beer and that saves me lots on monthly budget to.


----------



## Bene505

Questions on the thread. Is this cruising for 2 people on $500/month? Or is it solo cruising at $500/month?

It seems that unlimited costs spent in advance are fair game.

Regards,
Brad


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## barefootnavigator

When I posted this the number was arbitrary, it could have been 500 or 1000 since I have been doing it under 500 for two people with a dog it seamed like a reasonable number to work from. I should have just put voyaging on a small budget but for some a small budget might represent 5k a month. Clearly there are many people happily doing it on this budget and many close to it both on large and small budgets. I think too amny people have fixated on the number rather than the concept.


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## guitarguy56

barefootnavigator said:


> I think too many people have fixated on the number rather than the concept.


Agree... many have also learned a thing or two they didn't know before had you never started this thread...

Thank You Barefootnavigator for a great thread... it's good to see many of us using these ideas for our present and future cruising.


----------



## barefootnavigator

I've certainly learned a lot on this thread. I'm in pre production mode for a film titled Voyaging on 500 per month that I will be shooting over a 6 month period. It wont be representative of long term voyaging but it will be interesting to see if we can continue on our path. I'm hoping to meet many sailors on the smaller budget like I did last season and film them and their story. As the very loose ****** is written right now the boat will set off with no money and have to earn as it sails. I was hoping to have a sailing partner of the opposite gender for a second film but its looking like the dog will be my first mate which is fine by me.


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## Bene505

I think it's good that you used a number ($500). It's a stake in the ground. Without a specific number, people misinterpret "small budget" as anything under the sun.

Regards,
Brad


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## travlin-easy

When I head south again in 2015, I'll use Quicken and keep track of my expenses throughout the six months I'll be gone. I really think I can survive quite well on $500 a month if everything goes as planned and no major breakdowns. I know I can easily make it on $500 a month for food and booze.

Gary


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## MikeOReilly

Bene505 said:


> I think it's good that you used a number ($500). It's a stake in the ground. Without a specific number, people misinterpret "small budget" as anything under the sun.


I'm fine with having a clear number, but the point is to set general benchmark for the discussion, not to hamstring it. It's important not to be to anal about "$500", or about what "voyaging" means. The real point, as I've approach it, is to have a fruitful discussion about ways of living a frugal floating life.


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## tdw

Bene .... ref refrigerator use .... your idea (switch off at night) works for us part of the year but not in the peak of summer.


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## Lou452

Water as a storage " battery" for cold is a good idea. Water is used in HVAC for the transfer of heat and cooling. 
I wonder if an aluminum plate might work better ? The advantage over a block of ice is it will not turn into a liquid and mix with the food. Is this the plate that you all are talking about?
I have had a container leak and the food get waterlogged from ice that melted. 
Peace ,  Lou


----------



## Lou452

No a block of aluminum plate is not a peltier plate. I just looked it up on wiki I saw some for sale for $25 dollars. Interesting even if they just keep food stuff slightly cool. They might make the ice last in a cooler. Then they might boost a battery bank ? Double duty maybe ? The water is cool the sun is warm power ?
I have also used the temperature of the deep for cooling just like Barefoot. In fresh water lakes the temp changes fast.
You can always try to find some real fresh local food. buy a small amount and eat it.
Do not forget the store will keep food stuff cool for you. Then when you get it fresh ? It will taste better than if they keep it for 6 days and you keep it for 4 days. Before the store got it I may have been at the warehouse for 3 days and in shipping for 2 Wow that's half a month old. I have no facts to show this time line but it seems reasonable ?
Kind Regards, Lou


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## newhaul

Lou452 said:


> Water as a storage " battery" for cold is a good idea. Water is used in HVAC for the transfer of heat and cooling.
> I wonder if an aluminum plate might work better ? The advantage over a block of ice is it will not turn into a liquid and mix with the food. Is this the plate that you all are talking about?
> I have had a container leak and the food get waterlogged from ice that melted.
> Peace ,  Lou


Lou not sure what post you are referring to I was looking at a peltier plate setup just like in the 12volt cooler that you plug into the CIG lighter in a vehicle 
Hope that answers you
Also the temperature difference is 30 or so degrees from the cold side to the hot side on a peltier plate


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## guitarguy56

Lou452 said:


> No a block of aluminum plate is not a peltier plate. I just looked it up on wiki I saw some for sale for $25 dollars. Interesting even if they just keep food stuff slightly cool. They might make the ice last in a cooler. Then they might boost a battery bank ? Double duty maybe ? The water is cool the sun is warm power ?
> I have also used the temperature of the deep for cooling just like Barefoot. In fresh water lakes the temp changes fast.
> You can always try to find some real fresh local food. buy a small amount and eat it.
> Do not forget the store will keep food stuff cool for you. Then when you get it fresh ? It will taste better than if they keep it for 6 days and you keep it for 4 days. Before the store got it I may have been at the warehouse for 3 days and in shipping for 2 Wow that's half a month old. I have no facts to show this time line but it seems reasonable ?
> Kind Regards, Lou


You got the idea... thermoelectric coolers like Koolatron/Coleman work in this same manner but use a fan to draw the heat out... in this case you would use a cold plate to draw the heat out... the cold side of the peltier unit is bonded to the ice box either at the bottom or side.

Here is a view of a four peltier cooler... this would quickly cool an icebox in about an hour down to 30-40 degrees... and a thermo switch would then turn on/off the peltier unit to keep the ice box at a set temp... the water in/out of the cold plate removes the excess heat... this is far better than any freon type refrig and there are no moving parts and the peltier lasts almost forever.










Forgot to mention... this setup can run on one solar panel with about 100 watts.


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## christian.hess

really im very interested...would love to make my big icebox into something nice.


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## Lou452

I thank you both I have not seen these. peltier plates. I have seen a cooler at a truck stop that you plug in lighter the lighter. I did not think the truck stop cooler would work because it did not seem to have much insulation. Maybe a home built cooler would have more insulation and could double as an Ice box?

I was thinking about putting a block of aluminum in the freezer for camping out. I have heard about these 4 day coolers . The advantage of ice is when it melts you can drain it and lose weight. The disadvantage of ice is some foods do not do well in water so you must pack them with care. 
Right now I am at the camping out stage of learning to sail  I plan on doing this camping before and after the races. It will be nice to go someplace instead of around the mark all day. :laugher 
Kind regards, Lou


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## Minnesail

According to the Wikipedia article thermoelectric (Peltier) cooling uses about four times more electricity that a conventional compressor Thermoelectric Cooling so I don't know how appropriate it would be for a sailboat. I've used a thermoelectric cooler when camping and it could only get things about 30ºF cooler than ambient temp, so on an 80ºF the cooler only stayed 50ºF...


----------



## manatee

Lou452 said:


> {snip}
> 
> The advantage of ice is when it melts you can drain it and lose weight. The disadvantage of ice is some foods do not do well in water so you must pack them with care.
> Right now I am at the camping out stage of learning to sail  I plan on doing this camping before and after the races. It will be nice to go someplace instead of around the mark all day. :laugher
> Kind regards, Lou


Make your ice in soda or milk jugs. The ice lasts longer, your food stays dry, and you can drink the ice-cold meltwater.


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## Bene505

christian.hess said:


> really im very interested...would love to make my big icebox into something nice.


If you had a leak that wasn't going to sink the boat, but required half a solar panel to power the bilge pump, you'd address that leak immediately.

Yet that's what we have with many marine fridges and freezers. The insulation technology exists to make these things run off very little power. Crygel (a.k.a. Aerogel) is an amazing insulator. If you want an efficient fridge or freezer -- little power expenditure -- super-insulate your box first.

Aspen Aerogel Spaceloft Insulation Hydrophobic Mat per Linear Foot 57" Wide | eBay




























.

I've said it before, someone is going to get a used liquid nitrogen dewar -- a large thermos bottle -- and make that their freezer. Used with a Danfoss 30 compressor, that will run on a tiny amount of energy -- likely for less than an hour of run time/day. Using a vacuum container will be like switching to LED lighting.










.

I'm not a huge fan of peltier systems because of the 30 degree limitation. A little Danfoss 50 humming along in low power mode is efficient and very quiet -- no vibrations as long as it's mounted close to level (and heeling is ok). And you can run the coolant tubes quite a ways, locating the compressor where you want to dump the heat.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## guitarguy56

Minnesail said:


> According to the Wikipedia article thermoelectric (Peltier) cooling uses about four times more electricity that a conventional compressor Thermoelectric Cooling so I don't know how appropriate it would be for a sailboat. I've used a thermoelectric cooler when camping and it could only get things about 30ºF cooler than ambient temp, so on an 80ºF the cooler only stayed 50ºF...


While this is true with a heat sink (fins and a fan to move heat away) attached to the peltier plate yes... the heat sinks would be at whatever ambient temperature... but if the water cooling jacket never reaches ambient temperature you get more cooling... the idea is a draw away as much heat as possible to get the best efficiency... it's done in avionics cooling where sometimes the heat in the avionics boxes are 375 degrees F.

Again the article you posted states: Peltier (thermoelectric) cooler performance is a function of ambient temperature, hot and cold side heat exchanger (heat sink) performance, thermal load and...

The cooling ability of the total unit is then proportional to the number of TECs in it.

What I posted can be run on one single solar panel with 100 watts... this is more or less free energy and definitely a lot cheaper than a Rankine cycle cooling refrig...

Insulation is the key... I would used 3 inch high density refrig foam, would completely keep the cold and prevent constant cycling of the peltier unit, insure tight fitting lid and you're good for cruising with refrigeration on the cheap.

Even if the peltier unit brought down the temps 30 degrees... if you used the water cooling jacket it would be freezing temps in the refrig...

See this table for water temps in the Pacific alone... it then would be water temps measured less 30 degrees if the unit was at ambient:

http://www.nodc.noaa.gov/dsdt/cwtg/spac.html


----------



## guitarguy56

Bene505 said:


> Yet that's what we have with many marine fridges and freezers. The insulation technology exists to make these things run off very little power. Crygel (a.k.a. Aerogel) is an amazing insulator. If you want an efficient fridge or freezer -- little power expenditure -- super-insulate your box first.


Cryogels (Aerogels) are exotic materials still... not even used yet in commercial aerospace much less on commercial refrigeration... costs are very high compared to high density foams currently in use today. So really not in the realm of anyone here to use.


----------



## Minnesail

guitarguy56 said:


> See this table for water temps in the Pacific alone... it then would be water temps measured less 30 degrees if the unit was at ambient:
> 
> Coastal Water Temperature Guide


Ahh, just come up north. Lake Superior rarely gets to even 50ºF, take 30º off that and you've got frozen margaritas!


----------



## newhaul

That is just what I am looking at and the unit for my current ice box is only a 20 mm by 20 mm unit that draws 30 watts when running and with water cooling right now if set to maintain 40 deg which is prime for dairy products it would probably run about 5 min per hour the water under my keel is 45 degrees and the warmest I saw last year here was 61 deg so would still be well within specs to maintain 40 with minimal power drain


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## Bene505

guitarguy56 said:


> Cryogels (Aerogels) are exotic materials still... not even used yet in commercial aerospace much less on commercial refrigeration... costs are very high compared to high density foams currently in use today. So really not in the realm of anyone here to use.


From the link, it's $20 per square foot for 1 inch thick. It's hydrophobic - no water absorption -- so it will last the life of the boat. A 2' square box would be about $500. It is pricey.

I bought $100 worth to re-insulate the lids of my fridge and freezer. That type of use makes the most sense for starters. I'll get twice the insulation in the lids than using foam.

But the ultimate would be a custom made stainless "thermos". That's a double walled freezer with all the air sucked out between the two walls. A vacuum blows everything else away.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## Omatako

aeventyr60 said:


> Same result can be had by turnong th egg carton over frequently, coats the inside of the egg preventing air from getting inside.


The turning of the eggs is actually to stop the yolk from settling through the egg white onto the inside of the shell and attaching itself. If this happens the yoke sac breaks and the egg spoils.

With a very light coating of vaseline and turning the boxes every 5 days we have kept un-refrigerated eggs in a locker for two months or more without losing even one.

I'm sure everybody already knows this but I'm in a typing mood - if you are keeping eggs for an extended time, place the raw eggs that you're about to use into a bowl of water before using them. If they float, ditch them - they're bad.

Another trick with eggs is if you have boiled eggs getting mixed with raw eggs, just spin them on a counter top - boiled eggs spin freely whilst raw eggs won't do more than a couple if turns.


----------



## Omatako

MikeOReilly said:


> I've read that you should remove all labels from cans to protect against bug infestations on board. As I recall, the insect larvae can come board in the glues.
> 
> ... Am I mistaken on this?


We never do anything to cans and I concur with Gary - we have never in three decades of sailing had to discard a can for rust. I'm also not sure about insects or larvae in the labels but one thing I know for sure.

NEVER EVER bring cardboard product made using fluted cardboard onto you boat. Not even onto the deck to unpack and then discard. The flutes are perfect homes for insect of all kinds but especially - ROACHES.

We did this many years ago and when we sold the boat we bid goodbye to the last of the roaches we could not kill. Once these little beasties are on board they're there for ever. The only way to rid yourself of them is to bequeth them to the next owner of your boat.


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## Bene505

Omatako said:


> We never do anything to cans and I concur with Gary - we have never in three decades of sailing had to discard a can for rust. I'm also not sure about insects or larvae in the labels but one thing I know for sure.
> 
> NEVER EVER bring cardboard product made using fluted cardboard onto you boat. Not even onto the deck to unpack and then discard. The flutes are perfect homes for insect of all kinds but especially - ROACHES.
> 
> We did this many years ago and when we sold the boat we bid goodbye to the last of the roaches we could not kill. Once these little beasties are on board they're there for ever. The only way to rid yourself of them is to bequeth them to the next owner of your boat.


If the boat were on the hard here in New England at 10 degrees F, would that kill the roaches?

Regards,
Brad


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## Omatako

Bene505 said:


> If the boat were on the hard here in New England at 10 degrees F, would that kill the roaches?
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


I seriously doubt that it would.

I had a friend who did photography for advertising and he would freeze insects and then photograph while they're moving really slowly as they thaw out. Mostly the freezing was done in a domestic fridge freezer so temps down to minus 20 Celsius not uncommon. Most insects are not affected by freezing temps and roaches are amongst the "most".

Freezing them simply puts them into suspended animation - they come back good as ever. I guess frozen is frozen and I'm not sure the depth of the temperature is a deciding element.


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## Bene505

Omatako said:


> I seriously doubt that it would.
> 
> I had a friend who did photography for advertising and he would freeze insects and then photograph while they're moving really slowly as they thaw out. Mostly the freezing was done in a domestic fridge freezer so temps down to minus 20 Celsius not uncommon. Most insects are not affected by freezing temps and roaches are amongst the "most".
> 
> Freezing them simply puts them into suspended animation - they come back good as ever. I guess frozen is frozen and I'm not sure the depth of the temperature is a deciding element.


Oh my. I had no idea. I learned something today. They must have an anti-freeze in them, otherwise the cell walls would explode.

Regards,
Brad


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## JonEisberg

MikeOReilly said:


> I'm fine with having a clear number, but the point is to set general benchmark for the discussion, not to hamstring it. *It's important not to be to anal about "$500", or about what "voyaging" means.*The real point, as I've approach it, is to have a fruitful discussion about ways of living a frugal floating life.


I take a bit of a different view, and I think in the context of the OP, it is important to keep the notion of "voyaging" in mind...

Lots of people out there are "living a frugal floating life", places like the Florida Keys and Richardson Bay are filled with them...










But to make many of these floating homes seaworthy, and maintained to a standard required to make them capable of actually going places, requires a level of expenditure at a whole different level...

this has been an interesting thread, for certain, but if there has been one factor that has been underestimated by some throughout, are the operational and maintenance costs of actually "voyaging" to distant places... Charts and cruising guides, clearance fees can quickly stress a modest budget, and the costs of maintaining even a modest boat to a safe and trouble-free standard for more than a couple of years on end can be far greater than many people seem to appreciate... Many circumnavigators, for example, will stop in New Zealand to do some necessary maintenance or modest refit, the cost of which could easily amount to a full year's budget @ $500/month...

The wind is the only thing out there that's free, and I still think many are grossly underestimating the costs of maintaining a boat and gear to best be capable of taking advantage of it, for an extended duration...


----------



## guitarguy56

Bene505 said:


> From the link, it's $20 per square foot for 1 inch thick. It's hydrophobic - no water absorption -- so it will last the life of the boat. A 2' square box would be about $500. It is pricey.
> 
> I bought $100 worth to re-insulate the lids of my fridge and freezer. That type of use makes the most sense for starters. I'll get twice the insulation in the lids than using foam.
> 
> But the ultimate would be a custom made stainless "thermos". That's a double walled freezer with all the air sucked out between the two walls. A vacuum blows everything else away.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


What you show here is a high R value fiberglass/ceramic type insulation:










The above is not true NASA Aerogel... here see the difference:










NASA Silica Aerogel

Nasa Aerogels are about $100 a square inch... or roughly $15,000 a square foot... this is the reason it is not widely in use in the aerospace industry much less in the commercial sector...

You can see some for sale on Ebay...

1 25x1x0 5" Silica Aerogel Like NASA Type Amazing | eBay

Sorry for hijacking the thread on 'insulation' posts... the fact is a cheap refrig is available and workable for low cost using solar power alone... no drain on the batteries and while the peltier unit is not running the solar panels are charging up the batteries...

It's not a hard concept to grasp... This will be my version of refrig/freezer when I outfit my next boat.


----------



## Minnesail

Omatako said:


> Most insects are not affected by freezing temps and roaches are amongst the "most".
> 
> Freezing them simply puts them into suspended animation - they come back good as ever. I guess frozen is frozen and I'm not sure the depth of the temperature is a deciding element.


Cold gets 'em. In fact it's one of the ways recommended for getting rid of them:
"Cold Treatment. You can cold treat small items, such as toasters, clocks, or boxes, to kill cockroaches that may be infesting them. Put the item in a plastic bag, close it up, and put the bag in a freezer. In winter, you could set the bag outside when temperatures are at or near 0 degrees F. Leave the bag in the cold for 5 days. After that, clean the item well before bringing it back into your home." Cockroaches

They're saying 0ºF (-18ºC) for several days, so you are correct that a few hours in a home freezer wouldn't do it.

I suppose the problem with this fix is that there aren't many areas that people routinely sail to that routinely stay at or below 0ºF for five days.


----------



## aeventyr60

tdw said:


> I find it a little hard to believe that anyone doing the $500pm thing is going to have a freezer. Even if on your limited budget you managed to fluke one on the boat you have purchased you simply cannot afford the power bill. Whats more, fridges break down. Only needs to happen once and all that frozen produce is just so much fish food.
> 
> We do have a freezer but a very small one. It can hold approx four days meet/fish/poultry rations for the two of us, a couple of those single serve ice creams and a couple of ice cube trays. Thats about it but it does use up a lot of juice.
> 
> While soft around the belly me would not like to live without refrigeration (what of the beer he cried) it does cost a lot to run.
> 
> Regarding canned food, we do keep some emergency rations, some tinned fish, olives, that kind of thing but minimal. Reality is that there is not much that comes out of a tin can that I would choose to eat.
> 
> Beer btw is an issue. I do like drinking beer, even soft drinks from a bottle but I fear logic dictates cans.


Ok Grasshopper,

The unwashed masses are purchasing Solar panels in Asia for $125 for an 80 watt panel.. The Mercedes Benz Kyocera 135 watt panels go for about 400 bucks in Thailand....a bit more here with the duty and VAT...

More then enough solar power to make a 12 V fridge/ freezer work. You'd be surprised at how canny the "low budget" cruisers are these days. They may have a much better of the "Economics" of cruising then the 3000 per month crowd has. zfunny thing, the marina's are chockers and the anchorages are empty, we wonder what's the matter with all these so called cruisers.....

Good thing your not into canned food. Wonderful FRESH fruits and veggies here for a song, delightful wandering thru the wet markets, bring on your woolies carry bags! You may have to get used to buying meat that does not come in a cello wrapped/styro container. Most of it is just off the hoof. Tasty Pork tenderloin for 4 bucks a kilo....Bon APPETITE!


----------



## ccriders

I've been catching up after several days with the grand-children.
Re: shelf life of bread. Sourdough, or more accurately - naturally fermented - bread has a longer shelf life than breads made with commercial yeasts. Wet doughs make bread with a longer shelf life. Olive oil extends the shelf life of a loaf. I have taken to making smaller loaves for the two of us to cut down on the spoilage rate. A basic recipe that calls for 16 ounces of flour can be doubled and formed into three loaves giving you the opportunity of treating them differently for, say rye, raisin and daily breads. I've learned some creative ways to use stale bread, like making bread crumbs, or croutons for salads and soups, making a salad of slightly stale bread in chunks with chopped tomatoes as a bread salad, grilled sandwiches, and of course, French toast. Given the size of most boat ovens, make two loaves, put about two tablespoons of olive in one and you should have bread for a week. Better yet, put some chopped rosemary in with the olive oil. There is nothing that tastes better than freshly baked bread.
I totally agree with guitar guy about canned vegetables. They really are awful and bad for you. I think Mike is on the right track with drying fruits and vegetables and vacuum wrapping them. Long ago when I was driving around the back roads of Korea, is saw how they were drying all kinds of vegetables for winter consumption. And they didn't use fancy equipment, just mostly boulders, concrete pads, even asphalt roadways. My how Korea has changed since I was first there.
We (my wife and I) place too much emphasis on the food we eat, which basically ruins camping and primitive sailing. When I go grocery shopping, I'm basically one of those perimeter shoppers, you know fruits and vegetables, meat, fish and dairy, ignoring most of the other aisles of packaged foods. I really need to learn how to eat more simply (and less costly). I think the secret is to eat seasonally and locally. However where I live that means eating livestock feed 24/7, which I'm not about to do.
We need a CPA or MBA to chime in on the use of accrual vs cost accounting. I'm sure barefoot is talking about a cash budget and some stone throwers are talking about accrual budgeting. Maybe we should just keep it simple, call the outfitting stage sunk costs and our cruising fund a cash flow budget with reserves for major system repairs that become sunk costs when expended. You may or may not wish stick your head into the sand regarding these sunk costs. 
I think that if you get a nasty pm from someone here, you should insert it here for everyone to see and not let people get away with being rude and making derogatory comments behind the curtain. This has been a good discussion for the most part. Keep it going.
John


----------



## outbound

Agree with cc. canned veggies are the worst. frozen veggies both in terms of taste and nutrition ain't so bad. another vote for having freezers even with all the headaches involved.
Wife got a great recipe for taking stale bread ( crusts trimmed) -then one or two layers in high sized bake pan- then pour egg/milk/cinnamon over- let sit for a while- then bake. Cut up into individual portions and freeze. Warm in pan at low heat with butter. Yum. another vote for freezers.

Also use stale bread when making meatballs. soak in milk over very low heat until bread falls apart when stirring. adds volume to meatballs and makes them light.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Lots of good points made by ccriders and others. I love doing sourdough breads, and plan to start my starter again soon. I've just got back into bread baking after a hiatus of a couple of years. The problem with home made bread is that I tend to eat more of it b/c it's so much better that store bought. Doesn't help my girlish waistline .

Drying food is dirt easy. Our dryer at home is a plywood box with screened shelves and a heating element at the base. You can use an oven, or hang things in a ventilated space. I'm sure those commercial plastic ones would be fine too, and those by Excaliber look really good. The key is to have dry warmish air flowing. That's all you need to dry just about anything. I just did a couple of eggplants, some zucchini, some celery and a large bag of peppers. Dried and sealed, they'll now last for years, and they retain most of their nutritional value.

BTW, I'm learning lots about refrigeration systems. Thanks! And to be clear, I'm not opposed to a fridge/freezer. If you are able to maintain them and manage the power needs (which apparently can be quite minimal), then I certainly think they can have a place on a frugal cruising boat. I have a fridge on our current boat, but I'm probably going to remove it once it dies (and it's not working optimally right now). I'll miss it, but I know how to cruise without one, so it's not a high priority to keep it running. But to those who can, and want to, that's just fine with me. I'll know where to go to bum some cold beer .


----------



## newhaul

Reading all this is great info but some are indeed hung up on the outfiting verses cruising budget. Who took economics class in high school you take all expenses for a year and average it to get monthly average spending that is using known numbers and a budget is using that to get an idea what you should expect to spend on an average per Month budget=estimate and to many are hung on that 500 number you don't really get a good idea with a one month snapshot better if averaged over a year and even better if averaged over five or more years. The longer you average the less he variables affect the average .


----------



## guitarguy56

Doing some search for a DIY project on building one of the peltier refrig/cooler and found this nice site explaining in pictures how it's done for those that might want to take an attempt at it.

This photo shows the basic layout, you can see the foam used, only I would also line the outside of the box with 3 inch foam and insert into one of the cabinets in the boat...










Here you can see the peltier unit doing it's job... this one goes down to -10 Deg C or 14 Deg F...and uses 60 watts (commercial/home refrigerators are regulated for 30-40 Deg F)










The top of the water cooling jacket and water pump setup:










The water pump connections:










This shows the plumbing going into the ground circulating the water to remove the heat from the peltier unit but on our boats it would be a thru hull fitting or one that taps a thru hull to supply the cooling water to the peltier unit or it could be fresh water/antifreeze though a radiator unit:










You can read the whole DIY here...

itawk.com - DIY Peltier Module Fridge

Mind you their efficiency is not the best and they are in the process of optimizing the design, one area I would optimize is the construction of the box, I would use aluminum for the box itself welded as one unit and line the inside and outside with high density foam.


----------



## tdw

aeventyr60 said:


> Ok Grasshopper,
> 
> The unwashed masses are purchasing Solar panels in Asia for $125 for an 80 watt panel.. The Mercedes Benz Kyocera 135 watt panels go for about 400 bucks in Thailand....a bit more here with the duty and VAT...
> 
> More then enough solar power to make a 12 V fridge/ freezer work. You'd be surprised at how canny the "low budget" cruisers are these days. They may have a much better of the "Economics" of cruising then the 3000 per month crowd has. zfunny thing, the marina's are chockers and the anchorages are empty, we wonder what's the matter with all these so called cruisers.....
> 
> Good thing your not into canned food. Wonderful FRESH fruits and veggies here for a song, delightful wandering thru the wet markets, bring on your woolies carry bags! You may have to get used to buying meat that does not come in a cello wrapped/styro container. Most of it is just off the hoof. Tasty Pork tenderloin for 4 bucks a kilo....Bon APPETITE!


hmmm .... I'm beginning to wonder if our fridge is up to snuff or our panels are not performing as they should. At anchor the fridge(s) is/are our major power drain. Running fridge and keeping food cool is not a big problem but getting fridge down to sub 5°C (40°F) which is I believe where it should be for safe storage of e.g meat and poultry. Anyway, we are doing some work of that system (fridge and solar) over the next month or so. Will be interesting to see if we get an improvement.

Aev ... having spent some time sailing round the top end of Oz I can second your pat on the back for the low budget cruisers. Amazed me how they did it but wow ... talk about living off the smell of an oily rag.

Ref SE Asia ..... surely one of the great features of the place is the ability to buy fresh produce that has not spent the past six months in cold storage and is not entombed in plastic. Not only is it inexpensive, not only can you buy exactly the quantity you require but it also tastes better and probably will last longer.


----------



## Bene505

GG, 

One could also use a multi-stage peltier setup. Never even heard of one, but it could be done. Of course it would use double the power to get 60 degrees below ambient, or thereabouts.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## Don L

aeventyr60 said:


> The unwashed masses are purchasing Solar panels in Asia for $125 for an 80 watt panel.. The Mercedes Benz Kyocera 135 watt panels go for about 400 bucks in Thailand....a bit more here with the duty and VAT...


My washed mass in the boonies of the Northeast of the USA got a 290W panel for $280 last year. Cold beer for me! 

BTW - if you are a US citizen, paid taxes last, install a solar system on your boat, don't forget to get the credit when you do your income taxes.


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## newhaul

Darn WiFi had long post all typed went poof found working small unit in a travel cooler free by trash will see what it does and costs to convert my ice box over


----------



## travlin-easy

Don, the tax credit only applies if you are a live aboard - not a casual, weekend cruiser.

I only wish it were the case.

Gary


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## Don L

travlineasy said:


> Don, the tax credit only applies if you are a live aboard - not a casual, weekend cruiser.
> 
> I only wish it were the case.
> 
> Gary


I applies if your boat qualifies as a first or second home.

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Newsroom/Get-Credit-for-Making-Your-Home-Energy-Efficient


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## travlin-easy

That's pretty much the way I read it - but most boats don't qualify for various reasons. I lived on mine for six months, and it still didn't meet the federal guidelines.

Gary


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## Don L

I have claimed my boat as a second home for years and boats are specifically listed in the IRS rules as qualifying (has to meet requirements like a head and galley). The link I posted for the energy credit was an IRS link and specifically says it does not need to be your main home.

But I'm not your tax adviser and everyone should look up themselves.


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## travlin-easy

The requirement that most people fail to meet is the 14-day per year live aboard requirement, mainly because they really have no way of documenting this. In my case I did during my trip to the south, but there really was not much of a tax advantage other than the repairs and new solar panel I installed while in Marathon, FL.

The biggest advantage is deducting loan interest, if you financed the boat. In the eyes of the law, it's no different than interest on your home, therefore, fully deductible. Slip rent, pumpouts, winter storage fees, haul-out feets etc..., are not deductible. Guess I'll have to look into the solar energy credit and see whether it's worth the time and effort when I file this year. 

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## guitarguy56

Bene505 said:


> GG,
> 
> One could also use a multi-stage peltier setup. Never even heard of one, but it could be done. Of course it would use double the power to get 60 degrees below ambient, or thereabouts.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


I imagine it should work no different however many units you use... the idea is efficiency for using them.

My setup would have 2 peltiers for a freezer type compartment (10 deg F) and 1 high efficiency peltier for the refrig compartment (40 deg F) all running with circulating water... if you notice in the photo the originator did not have foam on the back wall, top or bottom of the compartment (wood cabinet) so of course he was not able to maintain the cold environment... but from the peltier unit it is frozen cold and the temp monitor is registering 1.6 deg C... not bad... I would install 3 inch foam insulation on the outside walls and 2 inch insulation on all walls for the interior compartment... the interior would then be a box of aluminum welded together to maintain even distribution and conduction of the cold surface of the peltier.


----------



## guitarguy56

travlineasy said:


> The requirement that most people fail to meet is the 14-day per year live aboard requirement, mainly because they really have no way of documenting this. In my case I did during my trip to the south, but there really was not much of a tax advantage other than the repairs and new solar panel I installed while in Marathon, FL.
> 
> The biggest advantage is deducting loan interest, if you financed the boat. In the eyes of the law, it's no different than interest on your home, therefore, fully deductible. Slip rent, pumpouts, winter storage fees, haul-out feets etc..., are not deductible. Guess I'll have to look into the solar energy credit and see whether it's worth the time and effort when I file this year.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Unfortunately only the interest one pays for a second home, boat, RV, etc can be deducted as you mention... but why would anyone want to finance a boat to get a tax deduction? You would have to work to pay it off and that being the case kind of works against one going cruising and getting off the hook right?

Those of us fortunate to own our boats outright stand a far greater chance of cruising and getting away than those stuck with boat payments... no freedom there for sure... but for some the dream is owning the big enchilada boat rather then the real dream of leaving the dock/slip.


----------



## newhaul

guitarguy56 said:


> I imagine it should work no different however many units you use... the idea is efficiency for using them.
> 
> My setup would have 2 peltiers for a freezer type compartment (10 deg F) and 1 high efficiency peltier for the refrig compartment (40 deg F) all running with circulating water... if you notice in the photo the originator did not have foam on the back wall, top or bottom of the compartment (wood cabinet) so of course he was not able to maintain the cold environment... but from the peltier unit is is frozen cold and the temp monitor is registering 1.6 deg C... not bad... I would install 3 inch foam insulation on the outside walls and 2 inch insulation on all walls for the interior compartment... the interior would then be a box of aluminum welded together to maintain even distribution and conduction of the cold surface of the peltier.


How about running the cooling water for the freezer unit thru the bottom of the fridge to increase the overall energy efeciency better heat removal means less cycling of the unit as a whole so instead of 70 deg cooling water say its 40 deg chill water which would get the freezer well below the 32 deg f

Much more and we may as well start our own thread on low buck peltier plate fridges ideas


----------



## guitarguy56

newhaul said:


> How about running the cooling water for the freezer unit thru the bottom of the fridge to increase the overall energy efeciency better heat removal means less cycling of the unit as a whole so instead of 70 deg cooling water say its 40 deg chill water which would get the freezer well below the 32 deg f


You would be defeating the purpose as now you are introducing the heat you just removed back into freezer... the heat exchange would need to be sourced away from the origin (thermodynamics law)... now if you took a small radiator and inserted it into a chilled box like a cooler to remove the heat... yes... but then you have the ice in the cooler already... why would you then need the freezer? The idea is to bring in cool water from the exterior of the boat and dump the heated water from the hot side of the peltier unit...


----------



## newhaul

guitarguy56 said:


> You would be defeating the purpose as now you are introducing the heat you just removed back into freezer... the heat exchange would need to be sourced away from the origin (thermodynamics law)... now if you took a small radiator and inserted it into a chilled box like a cooler to remove the heat... yes... but then you have the ice in the cooler already... why would you then need the freezer? The idea is to bring in cool water from the exterior of the boat and dump the heated water from the hot side of the peltier unit...


No I'm thinking running the water from the thru hull through the bottom of the fridge then to to the hot side of the freezer unit then overbord and a separate water line from hull to fridge unit and then overboard so two separate loops


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## guitarguy56

newhaul said:


> No I'm thinking running the water from the thru hull through the bottom of the fridge then to to the hot side of the freezer unit then overbord and a separate water line from hull to fridge unit and then overboard so two separate loops


My bad misunderstood... sure I see no reason this shouldn't work... the cooler the ambient water to the hot side of the plate the cooler cold side of the plate... but you are also removing the cold from the fridge to cool the hot side... again thermodynamics would work against you but not drastically. I seriously would like to attempt building this when I get home, I'm a tinkerer and like messing with this stuff.


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## Brent Swain

Having a fridge is the antithesis of low cost cruising. Canning and drying food is the much simpler and more affordable way of going cruising on a budget.,
In over 40 years of mostly full time cruising, I have never had refrigeration on any of my boats, and never missed it.
The less you use your can opener, the lower your costs will be.


----------



## newhaul

guitarguy56 said:


> My bad misunderstood... sure I see no reason this shouldn't work... the cooler the ambient water to the hot side of the plate the cooler cold side of the plate... but you are also removing the cold from the fridge to cool the hot side... again thermodynamics would work against you but not drastically. I seriously would like to attempt building this when I get home, I'm a tinkerer and like messing with this stuff.


I'm a tinker as well that's part of the reason people used to call me a packrat . The one people usually can't get is the ammonia refrigerator make it hot to make it cold. 
You would be removing one deg of cooling but introducing three so a net gain of two deg cooler.


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## Omatako

Brent Swain said:


> Having a fridge is the antithesis of low cost cruising. Canning and drying food is the much simpler and more affordable way of going cruising on a budget.,
> In over 40 years of mostly full time cruising, I have never had refrigeration on any of my boats, and never missed it.
> The less you use your can opener, the lower your costs will be.


My fridge is about beer and wine, not food


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## Group9

Omatako said:


> My fridge is about beer and wine, not food


That's pretty much the whole reason I bought my solar panels. 

I can't drink warm beer in paradise.


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## christian.hess

yah not that good warm beer that is

we had a nice sri lankan beer middway from maldives to yemen and while I enjoyed the taste...the warm suds killed me and quickly had me drunk and thirsty...it was good we were out 500 miles or so but man...water or a nice orange TANG cooled in the fridge would of been a million times more glorious!

jajaja

beer is for being at anchor or at the dock after a passage...its a big no no during...

but tell that to knox johnston, chichester, motissier, the roths or any of the sailors of days gone by and theyd laugh to hell and back

a night cap or a stiff shot here and there are miracle workers for when the **** hits the fan

jajaja


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## christian.hess

related to drinks while voyaging my absolute favourite is

PASTIS mixed with water...

its a french classic and voyaging have to...

its abslutely refreshing even at room temp..the anis makes it so does not need refrigeration either.

this was our night cap on good passage days...


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## ccriders

Brent Swain said:


> Having a fridge is the antithesis of low cost cruising. Canning and drying food is the much simpler and more affordable way of going cruising on a budget.,
> In over 40 years of mostly full time cruising, I have never had refrigeration on any of my boats, and never missed it.
> The less you use your can opener, the lower your costs will be.


Says the guy who lives in cold water. How about when the water is 85-90 degrees? Think you might like a cold one then?
John


----------



## MikeOReilly

This fixation on fridges is an interesting one. It comes up often on forums when people discuss frugal cruising ideas. Fridges and showers, and sometimes manual windlasses, seem to mark some sort of demarcation point. On the one side is civilization; on the other lies anarchy, deprivation ... (shudder) camping .

I'm very happy with my cold beer, but it's not a driving force in my cruising designs. Living without a fridge is really not that hard. Humans have done it for most of our existence. It's only been in the last couple of decades that the technology has become readily available for cruising boats. Somehow our recent fore bearers managed to survive. I just don't see what the big deal is all about.


----------



## newhaul

MikeOReilly said:


> This fixation on fridges is an interesting one. It comes up often on forums when people discuss frugal cruising ideas. Fridges and showers, and sometimes manual windlasses, seem to mark some sort of demarcation point. On the one side is civilization; on the other lies anarchy, deprivation ... (shudder) camping .
> 
> I'm very happy with my cold beer, but it's not a driving force in my cruising designs. Living without a fridge is really not that hard. Humans have done it for most of our existence. It's only been in the last couple of decades that the technology has become readily available for cruising boats. Somehow our recent fore bearers managed to survive. I just don't see what the big deal is all about.


Here's something I'm thinking yes you don't need refrigeration however on a long passage of more than a weeks duration it would be nice to have you can extend the usable life of many fresh vegies and dairy by cooling it in a dry environment and when its not actually needed for that turn it off and save the power. I don't drink so I can't say about keeping beer cold.


----------



## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> This fixation on fridges is an interesting one. It comes up often on forums when people discuss frugal cruising ideas. Fridges and showers, and sometimes manual windlasses, seem to mark some sort of demarcation point. On the one side is civilization; on the other lies anarchy, deprivation ... (shudder) camping .
> 
> I'm very happy with my cold beer, but it's not a driving force in my cruising designs. Living without a fridge is really not that hard. Humans have done it for most of our existence. It's only been in the last couple of decades that the technology has become readily available for cruising boats. Somehow our recent fore bearers managed to survive. I just don't see what the big deal is all about.


Mike while I might agree to a point... the times past is just that... times past.
No one takes a horse to work? No one puts their fingers on a rotary phone anymore... etc. Refrigs offer a convenience and a convenience only... some of us would like dairy products like butter, eggs, produce, etc. and these need to be refrig. at some point... even when camping... some people bring coolers with ice, others choose to bring an Engle/Coleman electric cooler... it's choices... some cruisers want that choice to cool their beers or other items... I sure do and so do many others... others choose not to have anything refrigerated and would rather use dry goods only... I was only hoping to give those wanting a cheap alternative to the compressor type refrig systems wought with maintenance issues...


----------



## guitarguy56

newhaul said:


> Here's something I'm thinking yes you don't need refrigeration however on a long passage of more than a weeks duration it would be nice to have you can extend the usable life of many fresh vegies and dairy by cooling it in a dry environment and when its not actually needed for that turn it off and save the power. I don't drink so I can't say about keeping beer cold.


Same here... the standing joke here is the refrig is to cool beers... :laugher

I have a totally different reason for the refrig is that my wife has medications that need to be refrig'd... even if I don't build a refrig I will need an electric cooler to serve the purpose... no cold beers for me and I'll take fresh orange juice or a cold glass of milk instead.


----------



## Group9

MikeOReilly said:


> This fixation on fridges is an interesting one. It comes up often on forums when people discuss frugal cruising ideas. Fridges and showers, and sometimes manual windlasses, seem to mark some sort of demarcation point. On the one side is civilization; on the other lies anarchy, deprivation ... (shudder) camping .
> 
> I'm very happy with my cold beer, but it's not a driving force in my cruising designs. Living without a fridge is really not that hard. Humans have done it for most of our existence. It's only been in the last couple of decades that the technology has become readily available for cruising boats. Somehow our recent fore bearers managed to survive. I just don't see what the big deal is all about.


I don't think refrigeration is necessary to cruise. It's just necessary for me to cruise. 

Kind of like an autopilot. I got along fine for years without one. But, now that I have had one, I would find it hard to go back to not having one.


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## robertluster

MikeOReilly said:


> This fixation on fridges is an interesting one... ...I just don't see what the big deal is all about.


Amen. I quite agree.

But I* AM *very interested in the selection / quantity of foods you have chosen to dry. How much of what do you target before a cruise?


----------



## newhaul

Ta instruments has some good info on dual plate peltier tech that may help you in designing your unit. Something like a 50 deg drop in ten min with two deg incrimental consistency control


----------



## MikeOReilly

guitarguy56 said:


> Mike while I might agree to a point... the times past is just that... times past.
> No one takes a horse to work? No one puts their fingers on a rotary phone anymore... etc. Refrigs offer a convenience and a convenience only... some of us would like dairy products like butter, eggs, produce, etc. and these need to be refrig. at some point... even when camping... some people bring coolers with ice, others choose to bring an Engle/Coleman electric cooler... it's choices... some cruisers want that choice to cool their beers or other items... I sure do and so do many others... others choose not to have anything refrigerated and would rather use dry goods only... I was only hoping to give those wanting a cheap alternative to the compressor type refrig systems wought with maintenance issues...


Yeah ... it's a fine line between nostalgia and current reality. I often slip over the edge . And don't get wrong, I've got no problems with having a fridge, a shower or even an electric windlass. I really appreciate your ideas. Please, keep them coming. I'm learning a lot from you and others. Heck, I may even try and coax my fridge along (did I mention how much I like cold beer as well ).

It's just interesting (to me) how these items so often become some sort of benchmark around discussions of frugality. I'm just musing...

I will say, you don't need a fridge to cruise with most fresh produce. A lot of things that we routinely refrigerate do not require it. Fresh dairy and meats are the challenge, but there are ways to manage those as well.

But just to be clear, I'm not suggesting in any way a luddite approach here. If a fridge works for you, then I'm all for it. It's just that I do wonder if all the effort and energy is really worth it. There are alternatives that are a lot easier -- at least for low-talented people like me .


----------



## copacabana

Speaking of fridges... Has anyone tried these Engel drop-in fridges? I've heard they are very reliable and consume very little power. I like the idea that the unit can be replaced just by unbolting it and putting a new one in its place. I also like the idea that it can work as either a fridge or a freezer. The price seems pretty fair too.

https://www.engel-usa.com/products/...n-models/engel-mb40-drop-in-remote-compressor


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## newhaul

copacabana said:


> Speaking of fridges... Has anyone tried these Engel drop-in fridges? I've heard they are very reliable and consume very little power. I like the idea that the unit can be replaced just by unbolting it and putting a new one in its place. I also like the idea that it can work as either a fridge or a freezer. The price seems pretty fair too.
> 
> https://www.engel-usa.com/products/...n-models/engel-mb40-drop-in-remote-compressor


Looks real nice but at just over a grand delivered and that's two years ago price 
The units we have been discussing would yes use about double the power but cost under a hundred to build so there's 900 to add to the beer budget for most here


----------



## MikeOReilly

robertluster said:


> Amen. I quite agree.
> 
> But I* AM *very interested in the selection / quantity of foods you have chosen to dry. How much of what do you target before a cruise?


Hi Robert, we used to be a lot more systematic about food planning than we are now. But basically we sketch out menus, and then work backwards to get the amounts or volumes of required ingredients. On the boat we're usually out for four to six weeks at a time, and we cook very much like we do at home. Lot of veggies, rice, pasta, and beans. We carry plenty of fresh stuff: carrots, beets, rutabaga, cabbage, potatoes, onions, garlic, etc.. Lots of harder or root veggies keep a long time without cooling. We do use less meat, but do bring some canned, as well as dried ground beef which is great for stews/soups, and other pot meals. Other than that we bring all sorts of dried fruits and veggies (peppers, tomatoes, mushrooms, zucchini, egg plant, etc.).

We could have a whole discussion about menus and provisions. Perhaps a new thread?


----------



## copacabana

newhaul said:


> Looks real nice but at just over a grand delivered and that's two years ago price
> The units we have been discussing would yes use about double the power but cost under a hundred to build so there's 900 to add to the beer budget for most here


The price sounds great, but the extra power to run it gets me worried (more batteries, more panels). How many amps would you expect to consume to keep a well-insulated small box (say 40 quarts) at below freezing with your system?


----------



## guitarguy56

newhaul said:


> Looks real nice but at just over a grand delivered and that's two years ago price
> The units we have been discussing would yes use about double the power but cost under a hundred to build so there's 900 to add to the beer budget for most here


Actually a lot less than this if you only need to buy the peltier units... the prices have really come down since the last time I've used them on one of my aerospace projects... So yeah more money for the best solar panels money can buy.


----------



## guitarguy56

copacabana said:


> The price sounds great, but the extra power to run it gets me worried (more batteries, more panels). How many amps would you expect to consume to keep a well-insulated small box (say 40 quarts) at below freezing with your system?


Problem is not the price... it's the maintenance issues with these compressor units over time.


----------



## newhaul

guitarguy56 said:


> Actually a lot less than this if you only need to buy the peltier units... the prices have really come down since the last time I've used them on one of my aerospace projects... So yeah more money for the best solar panels money can buy.


I know it would be less but any lower number and people would get irate and demand cost breakdowns also for mine I was including the addition of a 30watt cheapie used solar panel prelim estimates put me around 5ah per 24 hr period to operate and 30 watt will satisfy that requirement on my system others will vary. 
Also my design is to keep dairy in the sweet spot not to freeze stuff


----------



## guitarguy56

copacabana said:


> The price sounds great, but the extra power to run it gets me worried (more batteries, more panels). How many amps would you expect to consume to keep a well-insulated small box (say 40 quarts) at below freezing with your system?


12v 5 amps are typical for the meduim peltiers, some run lower and the best peltiers run at about 8 amps... but mind you they cycle on/off so it's not a constant 5/8 amps discharging the battery or using the solar panel on 99% duty cycle... that's the beauty of using the peltier units... they are solid state devices and basically will almost run almost forever (100000 hours normal life) try that with a compressor run system... or 11.4 years of run time at 24/7 hours constant use... that of course would never happen as the peltier would run at a given set temp range before it turns on again... that could be 15 minutes per hour to maintain 30 degrees... this assuming your refrig is built efficiently.


----------



## Bene505

guitarguy56 said:


> Mike while I might agree to a point... the times past is just that... times past.
> No one takes a horse to work? No one puts their fingers on a rotary phone anymore... etc. Refrigs offer a convenience and a convenience only... some of us would like dairy products like butter, eggs, produce, etc. and these need to be refrig. at some point... even when camping... some people bring coolers with ice, others choose to bring an Engle/Coleman electric cooler... it's choices... some cruisers want that choice to cool their beers or other items... I sure do and so do many others... others choose not to have anything refrigerated and would rather use dry goods only... I was only hoping to give those wanting a cheap alternative to the compressor type refrig systems wought with maintenance issues...





guitarguy56 said:


> Problem is not the price... it's the maintenance issues with these compressor units over time.


GG,

You really ought to look at the Danfoss 12v compressors, like the Danfoss 50. These are what in SeaFrost's Tradewinds systems. They are near bulletproof -- self-contained with internal lubrication.

I've even bought a used one off eBay and proceeded to use it. You could get one that submerged, for instance. Add a new controller and away you go.










Regards,
Brad


----------



## guitarguy56

newhaul said:


> I know it would be less but any lower number and people would get irate and demand cost breakdowns also for mine I was including the addition of a 30watt cheapie used solar panel prelim estimates put me around 5ah per 24 hr period to operate and 30 watt will satisfy that requirement on my system others will vary.
> Also my design is to keep dairy in the sweet spot not to freeze stuff


Colemans largest electric 40 qt. cooler works on 9.5-14V @ 4 amps... it uses one peltier unit and cools down 40 deg below ambient temperatures... it uses a fan to remove the heat... now imagine the fan removed and having water to cool the peltier?


----------



## guitarguy56

Bene505 said:


> GG,
> 
> You really ought to look at the Danfoss 12v compressors, like the Danfoss 50. These are what in SeaFrost's Tradewinds systems. They are near bulletproof -- self-contained with internal lubrication.
> 
> I've even bought a used one off eBay and proceeded to use it. You could get one that submerged, for instance. Add a new controller and away you go.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


Brad... I've seen those and believe they have a use on larger boats you can isolate the noise in some insulated compartment... I just believe the simpler the system the less the headaches later on (the peltiers can be completely submerged too)... I would hate it for my refrig system to bunk out on me somewhere in the mid Atlantic/Pacific when temps are at about 90-100 degs F and my wife's medication has turned to mush...

How long have you had your Danfoss running without an issue?


----------



## newhaul

guitarguy56 said:


> Colemans largest electric 40 qt. cooler works on 9.5-14V @ 4 amps... it uses one peltier unit and cools down 40 deg below ambient temperatures... it uses a fan to remove the heat... now imagine the fan removed and having water to cool the peltier?


Exactly and I also am looking at a low voltage thermosta to keep the temp in the upper thirtys in the fridge so I'm estimating on a twenty four hour time frame. And approximately fifteen percent duty cycle ie: 10 min on per hour


----------



## ccriders

MikeOReilly said:


> I'm very happy with my cold beer, but it's not a driving force in my cruising designs. Living without a fridge is really not that hard. Humans have done it for most of our existence. It's only been in the last couple of decades that the technology has become readily available for cruising boats. Somehow our recent fore bearers managed to survive. I just don't see what the big deal is all about.


Mike, Don't underestimate climate differences. You sail in a temperate zone in cold water. I'll wager that your warmest water temp is about equal to our coldest. Visualize hurled peas, no not that, but water temp of 85-90 degrees air temp of 90-100+ and the sun blazing away making the decks to hot for bare feet. Everything will wilt, melt or grow green fuzz/slime. You will be hard pressed to go six to eight weeks and have some fresh food - salad, eggs, milk, meat without a frig. True our forefathers did it, but they carried chickens, goats and pigs to milk, collect eggs or slaughter along the way. They ate weevils, suffered from scurvy, had salt boils all over their bodies and died an early death, or escaped to someplace they could bury the anchor and not worry about getting pressed into sea service again.
Some people talk about unsightly solar collectors on a boat, but look at some of the shade systems employed to protect from the tropical sun, just as unsightly in my opinion. 
And finally, there is something really elegant about harnessing the wind and sun to power a really enjoyable "off the grid" experience be it on a sailboat or a backwoods cabin. But remember, "form follows function". 
John


----------



## guitarguy56

100 page mark! :thewave:


----------



## guitarguy56

newhaul said:


> Exactly and I also am looking at a low voltage thermosta to keep the temp in the upper thirtys in the fridge so I'm estimating on a twenty four hour time frame. And approximately fifteen percent duty cycle ie: 10 min on per hour


I might even look at getting one of these 40 qt Colemans and remove the plastic outer layer and canibalize it and insert it into one of the cabinets... I already have a small peltier cooled refrig you can buy on g-bay that actually looks like a small refrig... but bulky for use on the boat.


----------



## travlin-easy

My fridge stays at 45 degrees and keeps food and vegetables forever. Any setting lower than that consumes a lot more battery. And, 45 degree beer is perfect when it's 95 degrees in the shade.

Gary


----------



## MikeOReilly

ccriders said:


> Mike, Don't underestimate climate differences. You sail in a temperate zone in cold water. I'll wager that your warmest water temp is about equal to our coldest. Visualize hurled peas, no not that, but water temp of 85-90 degrees air temp of 90-100+ and the sun blazing away making the decks to hot for bare feet. Everything will wilt, melt or grow green fuzz/slime. You will be hard pressed to go six to eight weeks and have some fresh food - salad, eggs, milk, meat without a frig.


It's a good point John. My current cruising ground is quite cool most of the time. I am going to learn a lot as we head south. That said, most of the items you list do not make it on my current fresh food supply list. You list the ones I mostly exclude. Lettuce doesn't keep at all, but cabbage is a great substitute for that. Eggs, as has been pointed out, keep very well without cooling. You have to get them fresh, and outside the supermarket system. Powdered whole egg is also pretty good. Fresh milk and related products are off the list, as is large supplies of fresh meat. But powdered milk is very fine, as is canned and packaged coconut milk (a must for curries). Hard cheeses last a long time without refrigeration.

All I'm saying is that there are lots of food options for those who don't want a fridge. And when I talk about our fore fathers, I'm referring to cruisers in the 60s, 70s and 80s, not the days of old. I've also read that even today you'll find a much higher proportion of North American boats with fridge/freezers than our European cousins.


----------



## newhaul

guitarguy56 said:


> 100 page mark! :thewave:


Cool what ya got for the thousand post point 
And that would work however I am just going to modify my existing ice box by adding the unit between the outer wall and the hull on my lil boat that would put it below the waterline and immersing a heatsink in a tank of water secured to the hull should do good for my application. Also the bigger peltier units are under 40 on eBay so why spend a hundred or more just to canabalise regular ice chests like that can be had for under twenty bucks here at garage sales in the spring as people buy the latest and greatest thing.


----------



## joethecobbler

I had a freezer aboard, ran off solar /battery. we would freeze gallons of milk and thaw in refrigerator, we really like milk.


----------



## travlin-easy

The only time I had milk in the fridge was when I had someone onboard that insisted on having cereal for breakfast. I used Creamora for my coffee, and substituted beer for milk in most recipes. Beer pancakes are the absolute best - and don't knock them till you try them.

Gary


----------



## mrhoneydew

guitarguy56 said:


> 100 page mark! :thewave:


Shoot! You beat me to the punch. 

Nonetheless, this calls for some kind of celebration... think I'll step to the fridge and grab a cold beer. (that fits the current vein of conversation, right?) I'm not currently on my boat, but I'm _thinking_ about my boat. That counts?


----------



## newhaul

mrhoneydew said:


> Shoot! You beat me to the punch.
> 
> Nonetheless, this calls for some kind of celebration... think I'll step to the fridge and grab a cold beer. (that fits the current vein of conversation, right?) I'm not currently on my boat, but I'm _thinking_ about my boat. That counts?


In the winter yep thinking about your boat counts


----------



## guitarguy56

newhaul said:


> In the winter yep thinking about your boat counts


You get the Pink Cadillac prize for the 1000'th post! :laugher


----------



## tdw

Good People,
Mike suggested it earlier on re provisioning but do you think there is reason to hive this off into three threads ? This one remains plus provisioning (budget related ?) and refrigeration.


----------



## copacabana

You guys have got me thinking about using a Peltier device for a fridge. I love the idea of it being solid state, indestructible and silent, even if it uses a few more amps. With the money saved I can build a better box and add another panel. I currently have a propane fridge that works fine but will need to be replaced soon. I was thinking of going with the Engel drop-in fridge, but now I'm starting to warm up to the idea of a Peltier fridge. I can buy the Peltier devices on my next trip abroad and make the box here with local material. Does anyone have a good link to a site on howto build a fridge? I found this one on the web, but I'm looking for something a bit more detailed.

How to build your own dirt cheap fridge


----------



## newhaul

tdw said:


> Good People,
> Mike suggested it earlier on re provisioning but do you think there is reason to hive this off into three threads ? This one remains plus provisioning (budget related ?) and refrigeration.


I tink that would be a good idea the current thread on provisioning is rather old so a new one may be in order and the peltier refer ideas warrant it also in my opinion


----------



## tdw

Sounds good. Anyone else ?

Let me know if you'd prefer to just start up a couple of new threads or copy some posts across. 

I'm not here much today but could get it done over the weekend.


----------



## newhaul

tdw said:


> Sounds good. Anyone else ?
> 
> Let me know if you'd prefer to just start up a couple of new threads or copy some posts across.
> 
> I'm not here much today but could get it done over the weekend.


For the peltier units would be good to transfer posts from here for continuity 
Don't know about the provisioning it is fine here in keeping with the spirit of the thread frugal provisioning is part of cheap voyaging and cruising .


----------



## guitarguy56

tdw said:


> Sounds good. Anyone else ?
> 
> Let me know if you'd prefer to just start up a couple of new threads or copy some posts across.
> 
> I'm not here much today but could get it done over the weekend.


Great idea... I mentioned starting a new thread a while back on the refrig stuff but seen someone already posted a thread on the isotherm refrig... didn't want to bust that one up with peltier stuff.


----------



## tdw

guitarguy56 said:


> Great idea... I mentioned starting a new thread a while back on the refrig stuff but seen someone already posted a thread on the isotherm refrig... didn't want to bust that one up with peltier stuff.


I'm thinking the Peltier stuff deserves its own thread.


----------



## Bene505

Until it's a new thread....


The thing that bothers me about the peltier units is that there is no (zero, zilch, nada) insulation where the unit itself sits. Anyone who has forgotten a glove on a winter day (or who forgot a hat perhaps) knows that an uninsulated area will have a drastic effect. For a fridge or freezer, all the heat leaks in right there, nullifying all that great foam insulation everywhere else.

We have an insulated freezer with 2 inches of foam, judging from the "core sample" I got when I ran new refrigerant pipes. Then I put 2 inches of foam inside the freezer on all sides, including the top -- it has a hatch under the normal hatch. By piping-in the cold, I know the while thing is insulated without a big exposure where the peltier unit is.

Ours runs at 2.5 amps (Danfoss 50 on low power setting, measured via Victron battery monitor*). It runs maybe 1/6th the time, maybe less. That's in 80 degree summers, in 74 degree water. And that is for ice cream temps of 20 degrees F, not the much easier ice temp of 32 degrees. (Ice cream is runny until about 22 degrees.) Freezer isn't huge but the overflow goes to a huge fridge, and it's keeping the fridge at a good fridge temperature too.

There's nothing like reaching into your freezer and taking out a 1/2 gallon of Bryers, while hearing the crackle of the truly cold inside of the freezer, and doing it on a hot day. Yes I started putting frosted glasses in there too.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the reason the peltier units run so much is because of the big square hole in the insulation. I'lll keep my Danfoss 50

Regards,
Brad
P.S. I can only hear the fan - no compressor noise if you don't mount it sideways like the first time I mounted it.
P.P.S I own a peltier "dorm room" fridge, got it like-new at a yard sale for $15. It doesn't do cold very well.


----------



## guitarguy56

Bene505 said:


> Until it's a new thread....
> 
> The thing that bothers me about the peltier units is that there is no (zero, zilch, nada) insulation where the unit itself sits. Anyone who has forgotten a glove on a winter day (or who forgot a hat perhaps) knows that an uninsulated area will have a drastic effect. For a fridge or freezer, all the heat leaks in right there, nullifying all that great foam insulation everywhere else.
> 
> We have an insulated freezer with 2 inches of foam, judging from the "core sample" I got when I ran new refrigerant pipes. Then I put 2 inches of foam inside the freezer on all sides, including the top -- it has a hatch under the normal hatch. By piping-in the cold, I know the while thing is insulated without a big exposure where the peltier unit is.
> 
> I have a sneaking suspicion that the reason the peltier units run so much is because of the big square hole in the insulation. I'lll keep my Danfoss 50
> 
> Regards,
> Brad
> P.S. I can only hear the fan - no compressor noise if you don't mount it sideways like the first time I mounted it.
> P.P.S I own a peltier "dorm room" fridge, got it like-new at a yard sale for $15. It doesn't do cold very well.


I think the problem is you're seeing someone else's design... they installed a heat sink on the cold side and it's in the actual compartment... if I built mine it would be an aluminum or stainless steel box, would be entirely without an opening other than the lid/door... the peltier units would be thermally bonded to the outside of the aluminum/stainless steel on several sides and bottom of the box... now the entire box would be insulated with 2-3 inches of foam... no different than any other refrig... the only thing you'd see coming out of the foam would be the in/out tubes for the water cooling and the electrical lines... now place this entire box into the cabinet that is lined with 2 inch foam... that would be the basis for my cooler besides the thermo switch.

Agree nothing better than opening the cooler in 90 deg temps and pulling out some nice frozen treat... whether by peltier or Danfoss. 

Yes the dorm frig runs on ambient air... 70 deg the room ... 40 in the frig... 50 deg in the room 10 deg in the frig... that is the idea of running cool water to the hot side of the peltier... feel the heat off the fan in the back...


----------



## Brent Swain

Omatako said:


> My fridge is about beer and wine, not food


The higher a priority you give booze, the less likely you will be to be able to cruise on less than $500 a month. Cruising on less than $500 a month is no problem; cruising on less than $500 a month, while making booze a high priority, is not. Add the cost of running , buying and maintaining refrigeration to the cost of booze, and you have one very significant expense. Stop drinking, and you may find, as I have, that the added cruising time ,and the reduction in working time to pay for it , gives far greater enjoyment than simply dulling the senses with alcohol ever gave you.
If you need to dull the senses to escape reality , changing your reality works better.


----------



## Bene505

GG,

If I did peltier, I'd put one going to the fridge. Then I'd put one between the fridge and the freezer. So the freezer's peltier "pushes off" the fridge temperature and the fridge's peltier "pushes off" the outside temperature (water or whatever).

But it would have to be something active like your antifreeze flow, so there's 100% insulation everywhere.

Regards,
Brad

And if I ever commission a boat to be built for me, I'm showing up at the factory with some Aerogel (even the lower R mesh type), some sheets of hydrophobic foam, and a hard hat. We're doing that fridge and freezer right.


----------



## Lou452

tdw said:


> Good People,
> Mike suggested it earlier on re provisioning but do you think there is reason to hive this off into three threads ? This one remains plus provisioning (budget related ?) and refrigeration.


I think that if it goes over into a new thread , a " Credit" should post from this one ? or when you enter this $500 dollar thread it should give you a reference
Just a Thought . 
I am happy enough. I think however it can benefit the maximum amount of people is what we should do 
Regards , Lou


----------



## Bene505

Brent Swain said:


> The higher a priority you give booze, the less likely you will be to be able to cruise on less than $500 a month. Cruising on less than $500 a month is no problem; cruising on less than $500 a month, while making booze a high priority, is not. Add the cost of running , buying and maintaining refrigeration to the cost of booze, and you have one very significant expense. Stop drinking, and you may find, as I have, that the added cruising time ,and the reduction in working time to pay for it , gives far greater enjoyment than simply dulling the senses with alcohol ever gave you.
> If you need to dull the senses to escape reality , changing your reality works better.


+1 Especially from my flying days. Decending into a new town, looking at the lay of the land, buildings, life, etc., that beats even a cold beer. And the two (flying and drinking) don't mix at all.

Got the first-ish ice cream cones of the season on Tangier Island that way, with my girlfriend. Flew south to warmer weather and got a beach day in early spring. Got the last-ish cones at the same spot that fall. (Yes, married her.)

Regards,
Brad


----------



## guitarguy56

Bene505 said:


> GG,
> 
> If I did peltier, I'd put one going to the fridge. Then I'd put one between the fridge and the freezer. So the freezer's peltier "pushes off" the fridge temperature and the fridge's peltier "pushes off" the outside temperature (water or whatever).
> 
> But it would have to be something active like your antifreeze flow, so there's 100% insulation everywhere.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad
> 
> And if I ever commission a boat to be built for me, I'm showing up at the factory with some Aerogel (even the lower R mesh type), some sheets of hydrophobic foam, and a hard hat. We're doing that fridge and freezer right.


Agree... the heat transfer and removal will be the biggest obstacles especially when in the hot Caribbean waters of 80 deg or more since this will be the draw of your water intake. Antifreeze would work but you'd have to dump 30-40 degrees of heat somewhere... a radiator? That would heat up the cabin... got to look at other alternatives... electro-chemical conversion to remove the heat.. opposite of a resistor if you catch my drift. I do like the Danfoss 40 specs and downloaded the pdf so I can compare... it's a small unit and might also look at this if it is reliable in the 5-10 years span... maybe use both?


----------



## Bene505

guitarguy56 said:


> Agree... the heat transfer and removal will be the biggest obstacles especially when in the hot Caribbean waters of 80 deg or more since this will be the draw of your water intake. Antifreeze would work but you'd have to dump 30-40 degrees of heat somewhere... a radiator? That would heat up the cabin... got to look at other alternatives... electro-chemical conversion to remove the heat.. opposite of a resistor if you catch my drift. I do like the Danfoss 40 specs and downloaded the pdf so I can compare... it's a small unit and might also look at this if it is reliable in the 5-10 years span... maybe use both?


Those "delivery water" (like Poland Spring) water coolers run off a similar compressor. If you find one, see if you can hear it. (You can't.)

They went one better and removed the fan. It's not needed since they spread-out the cooling. I have the fan blowing the heated air out a stern vent, so I'm not planning to do that.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## guitarguy56

Bene505 said:


> Those "delivery water" (like Poland Spring) water coolers run off a similar compressor. If you find one, see if you can hear it. (You can't.)
> 
> They went one better and removed the fan. It's not needed since they spread-out the cooling. I have the fan blowing the heated air out a stern vent, so I'm not planning to do that.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


OK... I'll have to see the one at the office, I'm sure if the unit was in an insulated cabinet with rubber isolation on the feet it may be silent... but it's mechanical by nature and may fail at any minute.

I have a small cooler for my marine aquarium that is a refrigerated unit to keep the temps at a constant 78-80 deg due to the high temp lamps warming the top surface of the water... it sits under the tank cabinet but it's noisy and sometimes I just turn it off...one of these:

JBJ Arctica Titanium Chiller


----------



## Bene505

I'd vote the keep all this in one thread. It's more fun that way.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## Bene505

guitarguy56 said:


> OK... I'll have to see the one at the office, I'm sure if the unit was in an insulated cabinet with rubber isolation on the feet it may be silent... but it's mechanical by nature and may fail at any minute.
> 
> I have a small cooler for my marine aquarium that is a refrigerated unit to keep the temps at a constant 78-80 deg due to the high temp lamps warming the top surface of the water... it sits under the tank cabinet but it's noisy and sometimes I just turn it off...one of these:
> 
> JBJ Arctica Titanium Chiller


Looks like there's a similar type compressor in there.

See page 10 of the manual, here: http://www.f3images.com/IMD/UserManuals/JB1113.pdf

But the fan is big and there's a water pump maybe. Stick a pen into the fan (to quiet it) and see if all the noise goes away... except for the pump noise. Not sure if you can turn the water pump off.

Best to just find a water cooler -- note that it needs to be a household cooler, not some industrial version that has a fan. Either way, you see it's the fan that make the noise. The compressor is really quiet.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## newhaul

guitarguy56 said:


> Agree... the heat transfer and removal will be the biggest obstacles especially when in the hot Caribbean waters of 80 deg or more since this will be the draw of your water intake. Antifreeze would work but you'd have to dump 30-40 degrees of heat somewhere... a radiator? That would heat up the cabin... got to look at other alternatives... electro-chemical conversion to remove the heat.. opposite of a resistor if you catch my drift. I do like the Danfoss 40 specs and downloaded the pdf so I can compare... it's a small unit and might also look at this if it is reliable in the 5-10 years span... maybe use both?


Could always use a keel cooler like closed loop dry exhaust systems on powerboats may work well with antifreeze filled system 
Marine Power Solutions - Marine diesel Engines


----------



## outbound

Dumb question.Have two frigiboat units both with keel coolers. How significant is ambient water temperature to ampH used? In short is it significant enough to be a major confounder to my energy budget?


----------



## guitarguy56

Bene505 said:


> Looks like there's a similar type compressor in there.
> 
> See page 10 of the manual, here: http://www.f3images.com/IMD/UserManuals/JB1113.pdf
> 
> But the fan is big and there's a water pump maybe. Stick a pen into the fan (to quiet it) and see if all the noise goes away... except for the pump noise. Not sure if you can turn the water pump off.
> 
> Best to just find a water cooler -- note that it needs to be a household cooler, not some industrial version that has a fan. Either way, you see it's the fan that make the noise. The compressor is really quiet.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


The smallest unit is the one I have, I've opened it up before so see the insides (engineer in me), there is no pump, the fan is I'm sure the noisy part since it's an induction motor, It could be replaced with one of the brush-less PC fans but that would void the warranty of the unit... you are right it does have a small compressor and the chiller is the cold unit with titanium tubes wrapped around the chiller... it's quite a simple setup if not for the electronics controller. I could try to find a used water cooler and cannibalize one but these run on 120 V so I'll have to stick to getting a 12 V version somewhere. Have you installed yours yet, any pics to show your installation?


----------



## guitarguy56

newhaul said:


> Could always use a keel cooler like closed loop dry exhaust systems on powerboats may work well with antifreeze filled system
> Marine Power Solutions - Marine diesel Engines


This would work and it does for cooling engines... and I'm sure it'll work for cooling the peltier... it's just complicating a simple solution of tapping raw seawater from a thru hull fitting and running it though the cooler and dumping the heated water... a small pump and several hoses are all that's needed.


----------



## Lou452

Go deep ? Need to cool the peltier plate ? I am not sure how fast the water temperatures drop in large bodies of water the ocean or the tropics ? I know it is huge in most freshwater lakes. The surface temps might be around 75* and 30 foot down it might be 50* 
I know on the runway in a small plane you can be cooking and if you climb you will cool off and can even chill. 
Changing your altitude or depth changes the temp. It should be even more pronounced in water than the air.
What if your flexible cooling intake line was held deep by a weight say 30-40 feet Could an arrangement be made to make this siphon so a pump would only need to prime or start the cooling water circulation ? This would save power an have less pump noise. You could only use this at anchor 
When a sail boat starts to move it's potential to generate power is on the rise and typical power demands should be lower than when at anchor. 
More thoughts ? 
Kind Regards, Lou


----------



## Lou452

Looks like one will not see much of a water temp/depth drop in the tropics. Hot is hot and some like it hot. 
Peace, Lou


----------



## Bene505

guitarguy56 said:


> The smallest unit is the one I have, I've opened it up before so see the insides (engineer in me), there is no pump, the fan is I'm sure the noisy part since it's an induction motor, It could be replaced with one of the brush-less PC fans but that would void the warranty of the unit... you are right it does have a small compressor and the chiller is the cold unit with titanium tubes wrapped around the chiller... it's quite a simple setup if not for the electronics controller. I could try to find a used water cooler and cannibalize one but these run on 120 V so I'll have to stick to getting a 12 V version somewhere. Have you installed yours yet, any pics to show your installation?


Yes mine is installed. I ran the pipes a loooog ways to keep the noise down and the heat where I wanted to put it. Then I found out how quite these things are and the reason most people just use a bit if tubing to put the heat, say, under the galley sink.

I also ran tubing for a separate fridge compressor, but it turns out I don't need a separate compressor for the fridge.

The connectors were quite straightforward. SeaFrost sells them Staylok I think they are called.

Note sure if I have any pictures. I bought a couple TradeWinds systems off eBay. One of them had been submerged. (Couldn't tell which one.) I replaced the compressor after I ran it overcharged. (They need very little refrigerant.)

Regards,
Brad


----------



## newhaul

guitarguy56 said:


> This would work and it does for cooling engines... and I'm sure it'll work for cooling the peltier... it's just complicating a simple solution of tapping raw seawater from a thru hull fitting and running it though the cooler and dumping the heated water... a small pump and several hoses are all that's needed.


Yes it would but somewhere someone was looking for a way to do the cooling with a closed loop with antifreeze and wanted a way to get rid o the heat thru a fan and radiator this would be simple to do and lower on power used vice a radiator and fan 
The engineer in me showing again


----------



## guitarguy56

newhaul said:


> Yes it would but somewhere someone was looking for a way to do the cooling with a closed loop with antifreeze and wanted a way to get rid o the heat thru a fan and radiator this would be simple to do and lower on power used vice a radiator and fan
> The engineer in me showing again


Sure that would work... problem is when it's a 90 Deg day and you are in the cabin the last thing you want is a radiator w/fan distributing hot air into the cabin anywhere... the idea is to take the heat from the unit out of the boat...


----------



## newhaul

guitarguy56 said:


> Sure that would work... problem is when it's a 90 Deg day and you are in the cabin the last thing you want is a radiator w/fan distributing hot air into the cabin anywhere... the idea is to take the heat from the unit out of the boat...


The keel cooler idea would take the place of the radiator and fan
Discussing these ideas is harder over the forum than in person I may have not been as clear in some of my posts as would be in person


----------



## guitarguy56

newhaul said:


> The keel cooler idea would take the place of the radiator and fan
> Discussing these ideas is harder over the forum than in person I may have not been as clear in some of my posts as would be in person


It's just more thru hull fittings and or more complicated to add the plumbing and dialing in the correct temperature at the peltier... as I said earlier tap into an existing raw water intake and run through the unit and exit thru either the sink drain or one of the other drains... nothing complicated.... and I really don't think a closed loop system will remove as much heat as a flow thru system. Just my guess here...


----------



## christian.hess

if I ever get a fridge going I will cannibalize or simply use those camping coolers...

its too hard to make this kind of stuff work here..

even if they do guzzle amps and make noise I have been on a boat who used one for 5 years without a hiccup

yes he did have 3 panels, wind genny and a big vetus engine but honestly I think I can make it work...

do those of you with direct experience in this can you comment on real world amp draw and how much they do cycle in the tropics?

as of now I have a 100watt panel and a portable generator...that charges at 8amps an hour...

I plan to add a small panel later on maybe dunno 25 watter or so?

well see


----------



## mitiempo

copacabana said:


> The price sounds great, but the extra power to run it gets me worried (more batteries, more panels). How many amps would you expect to consume to keep a well-insulated small box (say 40 quarts) at below freezing with your system?


Engels use a lot less power than a Peltier type fridge. A lot less than a Dan Foss type compressor as well. A 45 quart Engel (MT-45) uses 17 AH over a 24 hour period as a fridge in 77 degrees F ambient temps. I have owned one for 3 years and it is accurate. Their compressor (Sawafuji swing arm) is soft start so uses less power to start and is the simplest type of compressor available. It has only one moving part. On the scale to five any setting over one and it freezes.


----------



## mitiempo

guitarguy56 said:


> 12v 5 amps are typical for the meduim peltiers, some run lower and the best peltiers run at about 8 amps... but mind you they cycle on/off so it's not a constant 5/8 amps discharging the battery or using the solar panel on 99% duty cycle... that's the beauty of using the peltier units... they are solid state devices and basically will almost run almost forever (100000 hours normal life) try that with a compressor run system... or 11.4 years of run time at 24/7 hours constant use... that of course would never happen as the peltier would run at a given set temp range before it turns on again... that could be 15 minutes per hour to maintain 30 degrees... this assuming your refrig is built efficiently.


That consumption is equal to or higher than a Dan Foss compressor used by all the major manufacturers (except Engel). Even at 25% duty time that is 48 AH per 24 hour day.


----------



## copacabana

mitiempo said:


> Engels use a lot less power than a Peltier type fridge. A lot less than a Dan Foss type compressor as well. A 45 quart Engel (MT-45) uses 17 AH over a 24 hour period as a fridge in 77 degrees F ambient temps. I have owned one for 3 years and it is accurate. Their compressor (Sawafuji swing arm) is soft start so uses less power to start and is the simplest type of compressor available. It has only one moving part. On the scale to five any setting over one and it freezes.


Brian, can I take it you're satisfied with your Engel? I am really leaning towards buying one and would love to hear about their reliability. 17AH over 24 hours is amazing. I would imagine a single 100w panel would be enough to drive the fridge?


----------



## christian.hess

thats what I have..panel wise....but doubt it copa...

Im too very interested...

I want to make aa small wind genny...diy type and see if I can add some amps to my batteries.

maybe adapting one(engel) to my icebox is the way to go really


----------



## christian.hess

so is this just a standalone unit? or do they offer the innards?

while 910 bucks is a lot for me...it is a wise investment since the wife and kid dont do the whole frugal living too well


YET...

Ill be teaching them some tricks soon I hope HOPE key word


----------



## newhaul

The amp hrs used go up quickly with the peltier units in warm water in the colder climes like here I'm only looking at a ten to fifteen percent duty cycle with a single unit in your warmer waters you would need a dual unit and then the amphrs are lots lower for other cooling methods warmer means a higher duty cycle


----------



## JonEisberg

mitiempo said:


> Engels use a lot less power than a Peltier type fridge. A lot less than a Dan Foss type compressor as well. A 45 quart Engel (MT-45) uses 17 AH over a 24 hour period as a fridge in 77 degrees F ambient temps. I have owned one for 3 years and it is accurate. Their compressor (Sawafuji swing arm) is soft start so uses less power to start and is the simplest type of compressor available. It has only one moving part. On the scale to five any setting over one and it freezes.





mitiempo said:


> That consumption is equal to or higher than a Dan Foss compressor used by all the major manufacturers (except Engel). Even at 25% duty time that is 48 AH per 24 hour day.


Thanks for posting that info... I'm no refrigeration guru, but there seems to be an awful lot of "reinvention of the wheel" going on in this thread, and I'm not convinced some of these 'home-brewed' alternatives are gonna be all that more efficient than the keel-cooled Frigoboat setup on my own boat...

But, of course, a Frigoboat_ WILL _set one back about 3 months at the rate of $500 per... 

Brent really has it right, trying to combine refrigeration with a truly minimalist budget is bound to be a losing game... I believe that's one of the first points Annie Hill makes, as well... There are few things one can put on a boat - aside from an engine, perhaps - that will require greater expense and dedication of systems to operate over the long haul, in terms of additional gear to supply the power required, and so on...


----------



## guitarguy56

mitiempo said:


> That consumption is equal to or higher than a Dan Foss compressor used by all the major manufacturers (except Engel). Even at 25% duty time that is 48 AH per 24 hour day.


Not sure I share your math Brian...

peltier uses 5 amps so 5 amps x 24hr x .25 duty cycle = 30 amp hrs/day

danfoss uses 5.81 amps so 5.81 amps x 24hrs x .25 duty cycle = 34 amp hrs/day

So while I don't see a big deal here it's the price difference if the tinkerer wanted to make one...

But I agree all things equal one as yourself are happy with the Engel/Danfoss refrig...

Ok... consensus here is travel with one of the Engels/Danfoss refrig's or not go with any refrigs and cruise ala Annie Hill... so this being the case I will not post anymore on the peltier units and will consider it a dead issue... we can now go back to discussing the drying of foods and keeping foods fresh without a refrig and if one wants one you try out one of the cheaper Colemans.


----------



## Bene505

guitarguy56 said:


> Not sure I share your math Brian...
> 
> peltier uses 5 amps so 5 amps x 24hr x .25 duty cycle = 30 amp hrs/day
> 
> danfoss uses 5.81 amps so 5.81 amps x 24hrs x .25 duty cycle = 34 amp hrs/day
> 
> So while I don't see a big deal here it's the price difference if the tinkerer wanted to make one...
> 
> But I agree all things equal one as yourself are happy with the Engel/Danfoss refrig...
> 
> Ok... consensus here is travel with one of the Engels/Danfoss refrig's or not go with any refrigs and cruise ala Annie Hill... so this being the case I will not post anymore on the peltier units and will consider it a dead issue... we can now go back to discussing the drying of foods and keeping foods fresh without a refrig and if one wants one you try out one of the cheaper Colemans.


What we really need is a chart of BTUs per amp at various ambient temperatures, for peltier, Danfoss, and Engle. That would give us all the information we need to make a decision.

The cooling is just one part of the equation. The box insulation is the other very important part. (More important in my book.) But getting some cooling stats would really help.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## Bene505

Bene505 said:


> What we really need is a chart of BTUs per amp at various ambient temperatures, for peltier, Danfoss, and Engle. That would give us all the information we need to make a decision.
> 
> The cooling is just one part of the equation. The box insulation is the other very important part. (More important in my book.) But getting some cooling stats would really help.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


from Thermoelectric cooling, coolers, modules, heat sinks, exchangers, Peltier coolers, devices - TE Technology

5. What is the efficiency of a thermoelectric module?

Technically, the word efficiency relates to the ratio of the amount of work one gets out of a machine to the amount of power input. In heat pumping applications, this term is rarely used because it is possible to remove more heat than the amount of power input it takes to move that heat. For thermoelectric modules, it is standard to use the term "coefficient of performance" rather than "efficiency." The coefficient of performance (COP) is the amount of heat pumped divided by the amount of supplied electrical power.

The COP depends on the heat load, input power, and the required temperature differential. Typically, the COP is between 0.3 and 0.7 for single-stage applications. However, COPs greater than 1.0 can be achieved especially when the module is pumping against a positive temperature difference (that is, when the module is removing heat from an object that is warmer than the ambient). The figure below shows a normalized graph of COP versus I/Imax (the ratio of input current to the module's Imax specification). Each line corresponds with a constant DT/DTmax (the ratio of the required temperature difference to the module's DTmax specification).










Regards,
Brad


----------



## copacabana

christian.hess said:


> so is this just a standalone unit? or do they offer the innards?
> 
> while 910 bucks is a lot for me...it is a wise investment since the wife and kid dont do the whole frugal living too well
> 
> YET...
> 
> Ill be teaching them some tricks soon I hope HOPE key word


Christian, I first heard about the Engel drop-in fridges at theboatgalley.com

Engel Portable Refrigerator - Freezer

I thought they sounded like the perfect solution for me. I want to replace my current Dometic propane freezer with something similar (drop-in!). These Engel units seem to be very energy-efficient and reliable (Mitiempo, do you agree??). What I like about them is you don't have to build a box or do any complicated installation. If they break down after some years (hopefully many years), it's a simple question of unbolting the old one and putting in a new one. It fits my idea of cruising with simple systems. I'm not sure it's the cheapest solution, but it is certainly a simple one. They run about 1K.

https://www.engel-usa.com/products/fridge-freezers/drop-in-models

Another benefit is that they can run as a fridge or a freezer. If you have to motor a bit or the panels are putting out lots of juice you can crank it up to the highest setting to get it really cold and then turn it down at night.

I'd love to hear from anyone that has one.


----------



## travlin-easy

The thing I found fascinating about the above drop-in modules was the power consumption was next to nothing. just .7 to 2.8 amps, while my current fridge draws a steady 6 amps when it runs. Fortunately mine doesn't run very much after it's cooled down.

Gary


----------



## mitiempo

copacabana said:


> Brian, can I take it you're satisfied with your Engel? I am really leaning towards buying one and would love to hear about their reliability. 17AH over 24 hours is amazing. I would imagine a single 100w panel would be enough to drive the fridge?


Yes, very satisfied. Quiet, low power usage, and reliable. They are not that well known in North America but are the unit of choice for 4 wheel drive types in Australia and Africa. The one I have is the MRO40. My CS27 has a huge icebox - 6 cu ft - with lousy insulation. I looked at adding insulation and getting a Dan Foss kit but the Engel was less (699) and a lot easier. I use the icebox for dry food storage.

Here is a link with lots of info on the Engel. https://www.expeditionexchange.com/engel/

This is the one I have.


----------



## mitiempo

guitarguy56 said:


> Not sure I share your math Brian...
> 
> peltier uses 5 amps so 5 amps x 24hr x .25 duty cycle = 30 amp hrs/day
> 
> danfoss uses 5.81 amps so 5.81 amps x 24hrs x .25 duty cycle = 34 amp hrs/day
> 
> So while I don't see a big deal here it's the price difference if the tinkerer wanted to make one...
> 
> But I agree all things equal one as yourself are happy with the Engel/Danfoss refrig...
> 
> Ok... consensus here is travel with one of the Engels/Danfoss refrig's or not go with any refrigs and cruise ala Annie Hill... so this being the case I will not post anymore on the peltier units and will consider it a dead issue... we can now go back to discussing the drying of foods and keeping foods fresh without a refrig and if one wants one you try out one of the cheaper Colemans.


If you want to invent a better Peltier/box combination it might work. But an Engel does work and is less expensive than a Nova Kool or other brand of Dan Foss unit added to a box. Any Peltier cooler I have seen was certainly inexpensive but lacked a thermostat. They froze food in cooler times and didn't get it cold enough in the summer. Constant 4 amp draw as well. I owned one before the Engel. World of difference. It may take a lot of fiddling to get right. I wonder though why no manufacturer has done this. If it was possible you would think that there would be one that works well for sale. Peltier units are not new. All manufacturers of refrigeration use the Dan Foss compressor with plates of different sizes, with some differences such as the keel cooling of Frigoboat. The only other off the shelf unit that is a success as far as I know is the Engel with its unique compressor.

Here is a link to a good site full of info about everything that relates to good refrigeration. Kollmann Marine


----------



## mitiempo

I checked the Engel link and looked at the drop in unit. It is basically my Engel with the compressor under instead of on the side. Same power consumption - .7 amps as a fridge is slightly less than 17 AH each 24 hours. The 2.8 is as a freezer. These weren't available when I got mine or I might have bought one instead.

Here is a link to a page at Engel USA that compares Peltier to other types. Interesting reading. ENGEL USA - AC/DC FRIDGE/FREEZERS | PERFORMANCE COOLERS - - Fridge/Freezer Features
One key point is that a Peltier unit can only cool about 30 degrees below ambient.

What I am trying to find is the graphs of actual Engel amp usage as fridge or freezer in different ambient temps. It used to be on their site.


----------



## mitiempo

Here is an interesting link that shows actual measured power use with an Engel in the back of a vehicle in NSW Australia on 2 separate days with ambient temps of 35 C and 37 C. engel fridge power consumption
These measurements were over a 24 hour period and included adding warm items to the Engel.

Here is a link to a Youtube video describing the one I have. There are other Engel video links on the same page.


----------



## copacabana

Mitiempo, do you have to defrost your Engel periodically? The site seems to suggest it's frost-free. 

The link to the 2-day test was interesting, but he seemed to use quite a few amps over the 2 days (43a in one 24-hour period).


----------



## Magnolia

We bought a 34 qt Engel last year and I adore it!! First, we bought a 40 qt Coleman electric cooler that kept the temp inside 30 or 40 degrees cooler than the ambient air. The thing ran continuously. I couldn't stand it, so we took it back and ordered the Engel. This year we plan on installing solar panels and will have it running off of solar. 

We keep ours set on 2 and everything is very nice and cold. Juices, milk, cheese, meats, wine. The Engel, over the above mentioned Coleman cooler, or ice in the icebox, is da bomb!!  

It is very, very quiet. If we needed frozen food we would buy another for the freezer aspect. And if we ever get away from the dock, for an extended period of time, we will buy a small one to use as a freezer.


----------



## christian.hess

just what i want...

awesome


----------



## Group9

christian.hess said:


> just what i want...
> 
> awesome


Me, too. I've been showing this stuff to the Admiral. Our freezer is out on our boat, and I've decided that the more stuff that can be easily be detached from the boat, when it breaks and needs servicing or replacement, the better. (For example, I have a minor problem with my generator, that is giving me fits because of the location of the genset, that if I had the thing sitting on my workbench, I could fix in five minutes flat).

This Engel rig is exactly what I have been envisioning as the best replacement for my broken freezer and I could see getting a fridge to use for more fridge space, too.


----------



## christian.hess

I used to have a small montero 4x4 truck that I "restored" and had dreams of installing an outback setup like the aussies had back in the 80s

this engel would of been the ticket there too! jajajaja

is there a smaller slightly cheaper engel like the one mitiempo posted? the 45 sounds great but I could do with even smaller...

and Ill use the icebox for brick ice and storage if you will like fresh fish and whatnot...

this sounds like a nice dual setup since I love to cook and fish...

the cooler would be for any cheese, meats for short trips, etc...

and this way Id be putting my panel to good use...

cheers


----------



## christian.hess

Group9 said:


> Me, too. I've been showing this stuff to the Admiral. Our freezer is out on our boat, and I've decided that the more stuff that can be easily be detached from the boat, when it breaks and needs servicing or replacement, the better. (For example, I have a minor problem with my generator, that is giving me fits because of the location of the genset, that if I had the thing sitting on my workbench, I could fix in five minutes flat).
> 
> This Engel rig is exactly what I have been envisioning as the best replacement for my broken freezer and I could see getting a fridge to use for more fridge space, too.


btw IM NOT A FAN OF GENSETS

dont know why but the ones I knew and was close to on freinds boats suffered more than the inboards...they were less reliable even the well known ones...

portable gensets are the bess knees even the yamaha clones and honda clones

I have a yamaha BBT clone and the damn thing is s quite...if I want to have lights at a bbq on the beach I just carry it on the dinghy and bam...music, lights whatever

it sips fuel and is portable...
gensets to me are like inboards uneasily serviced unless on a big ass bench inside...and for the most part just as hard to service and get parts for as many inboards

trully UN simple cruising


----------



## Group9

christian.hess said:


> btw IM NOT A FAN OF GENSETS
> 
> dont know why but the ones I knew and was close to on freinds boats suffered more than the inboards...they were less reliable even the well known ones...
> 
> portable gensets are the bess knees even the yamaha clones and honda clones
> 
> I have a yamaha BBT clone and the damn thing is s quite...if I want to have lights at a bbq on the beach I just carry it on the dinghy and bam...music, lights whatever
> 
> it sips fuel and is portable...
> gensets to me are like inboards uneasily serviced unless on a big ass bench inside...and for the most part just as hard to service and get parts for as many inboards
> 
> trully UN simple cruising


The hell of it is, I don't really use the genset for much. It's a 4.5KW and usually, I crank it up so I can microwave my coffee or hot chocolate in the morning. I've told my wife, that before I put another $100 into it, I will yank it out and buy a Honda EU2000i. We already have to store gasoline for the outboard.

I would trade it in a second for more batteries, another solar panel, a good inverter and a bigger alternator on my main engine.

But, the thing that continues to piss me off about the thing, is that it looks like they built the boat around it.


----------



## christian.hess

EGGZACTLY and sorry to make fun of you but a 4.5k genset to make up some damn coffee? ajajajajajajajaja


ajajajaja

antithesis to thsis thread you are my friend

there was a thread not to old about coffee makers...and the consensus is that for simplicity the kona or any italian style STOVE TOP ESPRESSO MAKER is the cruisers coffee maker

anything else is for shoreside power only

even my drip coffee maker in my house works only when perfectly level...in fact if not it take like 8 minutes to make 4 cups...level it and it take 2.5

on a boat you need simplicity

gensets are for huge powerboaters and big ass sailboats

and now that you mention it there are quite a few 2k-3kw portable generators that serve a better purpose for us cruisers

rip it out, fix it sell it and make a buck and get a nice portable genny

the honda 2000 is the cats meow but is overpriced

there are many that can serve just as well with nice maintenance and save you some for the cruising kitty


----------



## Group9

christian.hess said:


> EGGZACTLY and sorry to make fun of you but a 4.5k genset to make up some damn coffee? ajajajajajajajaja
> 
> ajajajaja
> 
> antithesis to thsis thread you are my friend
> 
> there was a thread not to old about coffee makers...and the consensus is that for simplicity the kona or any italian style STOVE TOP ESPRESSO MAKER is the cruisers coffee maker
> 
> anything else is for shoreside power only
> 
> even my drip coffee maker in my house works only when perfectly level...in fact if not it take like 8 minutes to make 4 cups...level it and it take 2.5
> 
> on a boat you need simplicity
> 
> gensets are for huge powerboaters and big ass sailboats
> 
> and now that you mention it there are quite a few 2k-3kw portable generators that serve a better purpose for us cruisers
> 
> rip it out, fix it sell it and make a buck and get a nice portable genny
> 
> the honda 2000 is the cats meow but is overpriced
> 
> there are many that can serve just as well with nice maintenance and save you some for the cruising kitty


The genset, obviously came with the boat. It was the only boat I looked at that had one, and it was not a factor in buying the boat.

And, you're right, it is the exact opposite of what the goal of this thread is.

Sailing should be simple.


----------



## guitarguy56

group9 said:


> and, you're right, it is the exact opposite of what the goal of this thread is.
> 
> Sailing should be simple. :d


+1


----------



## MikeOReilly

I've learned a lot about refrigeration. You've all definitely got me thinking about new possibilities for keeping my beer cold. I love the idea of a peltier system, and the Engels look very good. 

That said, I remain doubtful that refrigeration is a sustainable option for truly low-cost cruising. Capital costs aside (as always), I can see how it might be possible to install a self-sufficient system (charging & battery storage). But maintenance and repair costs will have to be commensurately larger with this larger, and more complex system. Still though, it might be possible. However, my main scepticism comes from the costlier type of consumption refrigeration drives. 

I know ... I can hear all the fishers, and left-over kings readying their responses. And yes, refrigeration does allow you to catch those bigger fish, and store those nummy left-overs. No disputing that. But that gets to my point. 

Refrigeration is most needed to store fresh meat, dairy products and the more delicate types of fruits and veggies. You have the fridge, so your provisions reflect this capability; you buy more meats, more fresh dairy, and the more fragile veggies. The problem is these things tend to be more expensive. And even with on-board refrigeration, one can only carry so much. This means you're likely returning to marinas more often for re-provisioning. Marinas are to be avoided if costs are to remain low. 

I know ... I'm connecting a lot of dots here; lots of room to push back ... I know. But this does match my observations of fellow cruisers. Think about it; I can buy a ton more beans and cabbage for the same price as that steak and nice lettuce. Without a fridge, I'll probably drink less beer, I'll be more careful to only cook and catch what I can consume in short order, and I'll be buying cheaper foods in general.


----------



## mrhoneydew

MikeO... of anyone on this thread you always really bring it back to the original intent of what the OP was wanting to start a conversation about. Thank you! You really knock it out of the park. :batter

I think you are right in the dots you connect. However, I think there is probably some room for compromise. I have also been considering building a simple, raw water cooled peltier system for my existing icebox (after re-doing the insulation)... though this thread has me considering a small Engel built-in. My thinking is it doesn't have to be all or none. If one does stop in at a marina and provision with some "treats" like meat and dairy and more delicate to preserve vegetables, the life of those things could be extended. If you catch a larger fish, you could prevent the remainder from going to waste until it can be consumed. And you could keep some beer cold, if for a while. So if you don't build a walk-in cooler in the aft cabin and just keep it small, perhaps the system makes sense. And a peltier system looks as if it would be super simple and cheap to build/repair. Of course in the tropics it might not be the best solution, but even if it is only getting down to 50 degrees... wouldn't that still be a benefit? And once you run through the cold-stored provisions you could turn the system off. Just because it's onboard doesn't mean you have to run it and use it and depend on it 24/7. That would extend its life and cut down on a need for maintenance (theoretically).


----------



## copacabana

I'm not so sure the Engel fridge doesn't fit into the $500 a month budget. If it lasts only 5 years and you chuck it out and drop in a new one it still comes to $200 a year. I would imagine that you could keep it running with one large panel and a 200a battery. Not such a big expense in the long run. It's a question of priorities ... I'm sure you can find a way to cut 1K somewhere else for the luxury and pleasure of cold beer (and frozen food on long passages). I keep my boat VERY simple, but a fridge is one luxury I really enjoy. Bring on the cold beers!...


----------



## travlin-easy

I've seen several 12-volt refrigerator freezer combinations, and I think if my current system drops dead, then I will seriously consider a drop-in Engel. It would run easily on my 100-watt solar panel and house battery system and draw less current than most anchor lights.

As for genset, no question in my mind, a Honda 2000i will be going on the boat this summer.

Gary


----------



## mrhoneydew

mrhoneydew said:


> MikeO... of anyone on this thread you always really bring it back to the original intent of what the OP was wanting to start a conversation about. Thank you! You really knock it out of the park. :batter


And for the record, I just wanted I use a cool new emoticon and that one was the best I could come up with. There isn't one for clapping.


----------



## MikeOReilly

mrhoneydew said:


> MikeO... of anyone on this thread you always really bring it back to the original intent of what the OP was wanting to start a conversation about. Thank you! You really knock it out of the park. I think you are right in the dots you connect. However, I think there is probably some room for compromise.


Thanks mrhoneydew, that's very kind of you. And perhaps my dot-connections speak more about my own limitations than anyone else's. You've all convinced me I can maintain and sustain a fridge/freezer on my boat. I'm definitely being enticed by those nice drop-in Engels. But that's the problem -- or perhaps _my_ problem.

A nice fridge is going to bump me into a higher food bracket than I think wise for frugal cruising. You're right of course; just b/c I _have_ a fridge doesn't mean I need to fill it with fresh beef or lovely lettuce and cucumber. I can keep it for the big fish that doesn't get away, or all the leftovers I need to preserve. But if there's one thing I've learned about myself over the years, it's that I'm not that strong, nor that wise, when it comes to avoiding seductive choices.

If I've got that new Engel humming away at minimal power consumption, of course I'm going to want to fill it with steak and chicken and lettuce and cucumbers and fresh milk and cream and... Why wouldn't I? It's working so well, and that fresh produce will taste soooooo good out there. But then we run out of fresh, so we have to go back to the dock so we can stock up on more. And since we're at the marina anyway we might as well fill the diesel and go out for dinner. And how about that nice dress (for my wife -- not me ), or how about just one case of that great hoppy microbrew for me.

Pretty soon we've blown the budget and are hanging out in the $3,000/month club.


----------



## travlin-easy




----------



## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> If I've got that new Engel humming away at minimal power consumption, of course I'm going to want to fill it with steak and chicken and lettuce and cucumbers and fresh milk and cream and... Why wouldn't I? It's working so well, and that fresh produce will taste soooooo good out there. But then we run out of fresh, so we have to go back to the dock so we can stock up on more. And since we're at the marina anyway we might as well fill the diesel and go out for dinner. And how about that nice dress (for my wife -- not me ), or how about just one case of that great hoppy microbrew for me.
> 
> Pretty soon we've blown the budget and are hanging out in the $3,000/month club.


LOL... that made my day! Mike it would be a bad thing to be out voyaging many miles and weeks filling yourself on the same foods and not have a nice steak/chicken dinner you had stashed away for a special occasion, denying yourself these simple pleasures insures you will be headed to some port for a Mcdonalds/KFC or some expensive restaurant to fill the need and we all have them. Having either type of small refrig allows you that sense of keeping those special items neatly stored and frozen.


----------



## Bene505

This is why Mike wants a fridge and freezer.









This is what he's afraid his freezer will look like.









Here's Mike making a provisions run. The locals started helping him.









.

But then. I'm a bit biased.









Regards,
Brad


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

Bene505 said:


> This is what he's afraid his freezer will look like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


Just the amount of stuff on a door shelf is about the amount I normally have in my fridge at home. I only ever get a little at a time.

All of that was a good laugh, thanks for that.


----------



## guitarguy56

Bene505 said:


> This is what he's afraid his freezer will look like.




Looks like 90% of what you see in that freezer will go bad as it's in ziplok bags and not vacuum sealed... doesn't look like our freezer at all.


----------



## MikeOReilly




----------



## Lou452

Can I open the topic of navigation. I am thinking a hand bearing compass The plastimo with a garmin hand held GPS. The last thing to buy before you set off is Gizmo gear electronics ? 
I however need to learn just a little more about navigation. With a smart phone you always have a bill. I also thought about a kindle Fire and a navigation app.
The GPS should have the better ability to work in a wet environment ? 
Will a phone work far away from the cell towers ? 
I was thinking about a hand held GPS The Garmin Montana. 
I want to wait for the price to come down as it is the (new) one. I like that you can lay it on its side unlike the Dakota or Oregon. I am not on the ( bwb blue water boat ) yet. If I invest in something to learn with I would hope it will last and be portable enough to take to the bwb . Right now I am getting to the camping on a Catalina-22 Navigation out of sight of land is not a problem. It is skill building time. 
Advice anyone ? 
Thanks, Lou


----------



## mitiempo

copacabana said:


> Mitiempo, do you have to defrost your Engel periodically? The site seems to suggest it's frost-free.
> 
> The link to the 2-day test was interesting, but he seemed to use quite a few amps over the 2 days (43a in one 24-hour period).


I empty and totally clean the interior every few months. There is a very small amount of ice build up if I have left it open for long - I am in a marina mostly.

Yes he used 43 AH. But the ambient was between 35 C and 37 C (95 F and 99 F) and he also put warm items in at the beginning. In the back of a 4 vehicle.


----------



## mitiempo

Lou452 said:


> Can I open the topic of navigation. I am thinking a hand bearing compass The plastimo with a garmin hand held GPS. The last thing to buy before you set off is Gizmo gear electronics ?
> I however need to learn just a little more about navigation. With a smart phone you always have a bill. I also thought about a kindle Fire and a navigation app.
> The GPS should have the better ability to work in a wet environment ?
> Will a phone work far away from the cell towers ?
> I was thinking about a hand held GPS The Garmin Montana.
> I want to wait for the price to come down as it is the (new) one. I like that you can lay it on its side unlike the Dakota or Oregon. I am not on the ( bwb blue water boat ) yet. If I invest in something to learn with I would hope it will last and be portable enough to take to the bwb . Right now I am getting to the camping on a Catalina-22 Navigation out of sight of land is not a problem. It is skill building time.
> Advice anyone ?
> Thanks, Lou


Best value in a handheld Gps is a Garmin 72 or similar for between 99 and 149 dollars. For redundancy buy 2.

For a hand bearing compass a good value and one of the best available is the Plastimo Iris 50 - $75 currently in Canada. PLASTIMO IRIS 50 HAND BEARING COMPASS Binnacle.com

If you only cruise the US or Canada a cellphone will work. Anywhere else you would have to get a local plan - Mexico for example.


----------



## Group9

mitiempo said:


> Best value in a handheld Gps is a Garmin 72 or similar for between 99 and 149 dollars. For redundancy buy 2.
> 
> .


Yep. Whether you are on the $500 a month plan, or the $5000 a month plan, it is crazy not to have one or two handheld GPS's at the prices you can get one for today.

I have a Garmin E-Trex that I sleep with when on my boat.

For years, I had a Garmin Foretrex that I wore on my wrist for the same purpose, before it quit working on me.


----------



## Magnolia

Just wanted to add....I bought a white plastic basket that has square holes on all 4 sides and a solid bottom and this is what I keep my lettuces in. I actually keep it in my ice box to the far back right, away from the ice/drinks, etc. This frees up space in my Engel, plus, I don't worry that the Engel, being so cold, will ruin the delicate lettuce. 

Actually, I keep any uncut veggie....peppers, cukes, mushrooms...in there as well. Once cut they are put in containers and put into the Engel. This is for store bought veggies...if I bought them at the Farmers Mkt I just keep them in a bowl on the counter, until used.


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

Lou452 said:


> Can I open the topic of navigation. I am thinking a hand bearing compass The plastimo with a garmin hand held GPS. The last thing to buy before you set off is Gizmo gear electronics ?
> I however need to learn just a little more about navigation. With a smart phone you always have a bill. I also thought about a kindle Fire and a navigation app.
> The GPS should have the better ability to work in a wet environment ?
> Will a phone work far away from the cell towers ?
> I was thinking about a hand held GPS The Garmin Montana.
> I want to wait for the price to come down as it is the (new) one. I like that you can lay it on its side unlike the Dakota or Oregon. I am not on the ( bwb blue water boat ) yet. If I invest in something to learn with I would hope it will last and be portable enough to take to the bwb . Right now I am getting to the camping on a Catalina-22 Navigation out of sight of land is not a problem. It is skill building time.
> Advice anyone ?
> Thanks, Lou


handheld GPS, compass and even VHF is good to have on hand. I'm looking at getting some eventually for backup and ditch bag. Getting something good that can accept updated maps could help you too. If you like keeping things simple, they could be your only instruments on a larger boat. SV Lealea uses handheld GPS, OpenCPN (freeware) on a computer, and some cruising guides on their voyages from Hawaii and the West Coast and all through Alaska.

I wouldn't rely on a phone. While smart phones have GPS on them, many (if not most) of the apps on them require internet access that you have to be close to shore for.


----------



## Bene505

Lou452 said:


> Can I open the topic of navigation. I am thinking a hand bearing compass The plastimo with a garmin hand held GPS. The last thing to buy before you set off is Gizmo gear electronics ?
> I however need to learn just a little more about navigation. With a smart phone you always have a bill. I also thought about a kindle Fire and a navigation app.
> The GPS should have the better ability to work in a wet environment ?
> Will a phone work far away from the cell towers ?
> I was thinking about a hand held GPS The Garmin Montana.
> I want to wait for the price to come down as it is the (new) one. I like that you can lay it on its side unlike the Dakota or Oregon. I am not on the ( bwb blue water boat ) yet. If I invest in something to learn with I would hope it will last and be portable enough to take to the bwb . Right now I am getting to the camping on a Catalina-22 Navigation out of sight of land is not a problem. It is skill building time.
> Advice anyone ?
> Thanks, Lou


Get an early Droid smart phone off eBay. Connect it to your cell phone service for a short time. Download Navionics and/or other nav apps for your favorite region. Download anything else you want. Then remove the cell phone service; put it back on your regular cell phone.$30 for good condition used Android phone with charger
$10 for Navionics app (I got the whole east coast plus Bermuda)
$10 for 12v charger plug​Now you're setup with a chartplotter with no recurring cost. When near WiFi you also have web browsing (passageweather.com, sailing forums), Skype phone, email, and TV (Hulu, Netflix, other). You can upload all the videos you took on it to YouTube and all the pictures to Sailnet.

This works. No cell service required. And it will email you when your anchor(s) drag (regular or bermuda moored). Remind me to finish that app.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## MikeOReilly

Lou452 said:


> Can I open the topic of navigation. I am thinking a hand bearing compass The plastimo with a garmin hand held GPS. The last thing to buy before you set off is Gizmo gear electronics ?
> I however need to learn just a little more about navigation. With a smart phone you always have a bill. I also thought about a kindle Fire and a navigation app.
> The GPS should have the better ability to work in a wet environment ?
> Will a phone work far away from the cell towers ?
> I was thinking about a hand held GPS The Garmin Montana.


Our main GPS and chartplotter is a Garmin handheld (76CSx). We also carry a slightly older handheld, and have an ancient fix mount Garmin (b&w, no charts). In addition we have three iThingy devices that are GPS capable, including one fully-functioning iPad with iNavx (Navionics) charts.

I like the iPad for it's screen size, but even with a waterproof protective case, I would not want to make this the primary chartplotter. Despite it's small size, we use our newish Garmin handheld almost all the time. It is very tough, fully waterproof, runs a long time on a couple of AA batteries, and can be used in full sun.

NOTE: If we had a binnacle I'd probably install cockpit screen GPS plotter. Not a large one, but one with a bit more screen space.


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## travlin-easy

Mike, when I was sailing a 27 Catalina, tiller steering, I made a neat little box from an old plastic cutting board that held the boat's compass, and on top, a Lowrance HDS7 GPS/Plotter was mounted. The box was mounted on the bulkhead next to the cabin entrance, was out of the way, easy to see and navigate with. The guy that bought the boat from me mounted a similar size Garmin on the box. For the life of me, I've never understood why boat manufacturers don't think of things like this. It's not rocket science.

Gary


----------



## MikeOReilly

travlineasy said:


> Mike, when I was sailing a 27 Catalina, tiller steering, I made a neat little box from an old plastic cutting board that held the boat's compass, and on top, a Lowrance HDS7 GPS/Plotter was mounted. The box was mounted on the bulkhead next to the cabin entrance, was out of the way, easy to see and navigate with. The guy that bought the boat from me mounted a similar size Garmin on the box. For the life of me, I've never understood why boat manufacturers don't think of things like this. It's not rocket science.


Thanks Gary, that's a good idea. I've thought about mounting something on the bulkhead, or even the cabin top. We've already got various interments mounted in those areas, but I'm sure we could find a spot. I do have an iPad mount under the dodger.

If we get radar (which we probably will before heading out the St. Lawrence), I'll need to mount a new display somewhere. Your cutting board box might be just the thing. Thanks!


----------



## tdw

It does concern me somewhat that while striving to exist out there on the smell of an oily rag there is a rapidly growing list of gizmos on the to do list. 

Most of our cruising (not permanent liveaboard cruising, just mini cruises when we could get away from work) in our previous boat was done with a VHF radio and a Garmin handheld GPS mounted in the cockpit with a Foretrex as backup. Paper Charts. 

I realise fitting out is not part of your budget but hell, why not save the cost of expensive geegaws and maybe just maybe throw an extra X$$$ at the monthly spend.


----------



## abarth

I think the challenge in keeping costs down in the navigation department will be charts, not equipment. If you have a paper chart, a compass and maybe a pair of binoculars you should be able to go coastal. If you add 2 of 3 cheap gps, you could go ocean. So where to get charts? For USA it's all free online, but elsewhere it's buy, beg, borrow or..? With regard to smart phones and tablets, as far as I can tell, non of them are sunlight readable. So, I guess you are left with planing a route, sketching up a map and using a clipboard.


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## travlin-easy

Mike, the cabin top is not a good idea, mainly because someone will undoubtedly kick the machine while either going up to set the mainsail or going up to drop the anchor. I had a drink holder mounted on the cabin top and it was kicked until it broke into a dozen pieces. When I mounted the box, I made sure the GPS/Plotter was below the cabin top level. That made it so no one could inadvertently kick it. At one point, I had serious thoughts about installing a protective cover over the GPS, but it turned out to be unnecessary.

I was hoping I had some photos of it around the office, but so far I cannot seem to find any. Essentially, the box was cut at an angle in the back to match the slope of the bulkhead, the compass was a flush mounted









The GPS/plotter was mounted on it's own bracket directly on top of the box and was situated about an inch below the cabin top level. Easy to see from anywhere in the cockpit. I steered the boat from the starboard seat, therefore the box was just a few inches to the right of the cabin opening. This also allowed me to easily access the GPS's buttons and menus for navigating.

Gary 

Gary


----------



## Lou452

Thanks all for help on the navigation. I need to get out and do a little to learn. I am thinking navigation is a hands on skill.
I have this book I am reading " How To Read A Nautical Chart " by Nigel Calder. I got it half price ?? $8.00 at the used book store. Not an easy book for me .It was not at all good on a kindle paper white. Black and white with small maps makes it hard.
The navigation game seems to be swirling. All kinds of camps with the true way to do it right ? 
I am thinking about an ASA course but I need to struggle around for a little bit first to find my way. 
Kind Regards, Lou


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

Lou452 said:


> Thanks all for help on the navigation. I need to get out and do a little to learn. I am thinking navigation is a hands on skill.
> I have this book I am reading " How To Read A Nautical Chart " by Nigel Calder. I got it half price ?? $8.00 at the used book store. Not an easy book for me .It was not at all good on a kindle paper white. Black and white with small maps makes it hard.
> The navigation game seems to be swirling. All kinds of camps with the true way to do it right ?
> I am thinking about an ASA course but I need to struggle around for a little bit first to find my way.
> Kind Regards, Lou


Kindle is good for novels. Otherwise, paper books are better for more technical topics. I got a chart book and basic instruments to figure it out long before I took sailing lessons. It's been a while now so I need a refresher.


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## MikeOReilly

travlineasy said:


> Mike, the cabin top is not a good idea, mainly because someone will undoubtedly kick the machine while either going up to set the mainsail or going up to drop the anchor. ...I was hoping I had some photos of it around the office, but so far I cannot seem to find any.


Love to see the pics if you find any Gary. On our boat, the cabin area in question is under the dodger so not in the way of foot traffic. It is a location which tends to act as a general storage space for lines, hats, lifejackets and the cat. It also houses winches for our mainsheet (stbd) and staysail (port). I'm sure I could mount a display in there that would be quite safe. We'll see...


----------



## aeventyr60

Lou452 said:


> Thanks all for help on the navigation. I need to get out and do a little to learn. I am thinking navigation is a hands on skill.
> I have this book I am reading " How To Read A Nautical Chart " by Nigel Calder. I got it half price ?? $8.00 at the used book store. Not an easy book for me .It was not at all good on a kindle paper white. Black and white with small maps makes it hard.
> The navigation game seems to be swirling. All kinds of camps with the true way to do it right ?
> I am thinking about an ASA course but I need to struggle around for a little bit first to find my way.
> Kind Regards, Lou


NOAA publication # 1 is the standard reference guide to reading charts. found in most well found voyaging boats.


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## okawbow

Several years ago, I bought a Magellan Nav 5000DLX hand held GPS off ebay. I think I paid $25.00 or so for the GPS, cradle, manual, and 12V power cord. These units cost over $1000.00 in the early 90's. They can be keyed in with the degrees, minutes, and seconds, for a way point, and will show magnetic course, speed in knots, and distance to the way point. 
I wired mine into the 12v system on my boat, and mounted it in the cockpit. Does everything I need for navigation for little money. I bought a couple spares for the same money. Takes several minutes for them to start up, after being off for a while, but will find it's location and start up faster from then on. I use it with my chart books, by choosing a GPS waypoint off the chart,(usually a navigation bouy) and keying in a destination. It is handy for checking distances to plan the days run, by keying in possible destinations.


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## Group9

You can get some really cheap older generation GPS's all over E-Bay.

You don't need a chartplotter if you have charts and a gps that gives you lat-lons and the direction to get to a waypoint.

I sailed for years with nothing but one of these for navigation. It worked fine for years, until I stepped on it one day and broke the glass a couple of years ago.


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## christian.hess

like mike I use a garmin 76cx I got on sale..it was awesome on my offroad motorcyle expeditions and in my montero truck and on my previous boat...havent used it yet on my current boat but it has old and in my opinion very good

furuno hard mount gps with external antenna...in my view a fixed mount old school gps like that has very very very good record of reliabilty and because its simple works so well

Ill be using my portable as primary and the furuno as secondary...that and a chart, some paralel rulers and a compass thingy and your in business...
well some charlies charts for where you are, a couple of cruising guides (maybe a cheap nav software for the laptop) works great too!

peace


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## guitarguy56

I currently have the Garmin Trex Legend C GPS handheld... it has been very useful and for coastal cruising all I needed at least for me besides the VHF radio... I would like a Lowrance chartplotter/AIS/Radar sometime in the future for my next boat (unless it's all there) but feel for now I haven't had a need for it and cruised all of Puget Sound, the San Juans, etc with it.


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## christian.hess

question:

since we are on the topic of BUDGET navigation(jajaja)

whats everybodys latest cheap nav software kind of like captain software was 10-15 years ago?

I need cheap or free...something that will work on my HP laptop running windows 7

I have space on thehardrive and can get some extra space...I have the garmin 76cx which can b e plugged into the laptop but has very basic plotting abilities

whats my best bet for these to equipments I have?

when I was in california I used noaa charts downlodable but for some reason I simply used a paper chart as it didnt work for me downloading or something...I just used them for refernce while hopping down the coast

this was 2 years ago

so any help here?

thanks
christian


----------



## MikeOReilly

Unfortunately I can't help you Christian. I'm a Mac head, but I don't use my PC for navigation anyway. I do use an iPad though. While the machine is not that cheap (blows the $500/month budget for a month or two), the nav apps are pretty inexpensive. I use iNavx with navionics charts. App cost me about $50 and all the charts for Canada (all coasts including Great Lakes) cost me another $50. With a built-in GPS, these tablets are pretty handy.


----------



## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> Unfortunately I can't help you Christian. I'm a Mac head, but I don't use my PC for navigation anyway. I do use an iPad though. While the machine is not that cheap (blows the $500/month budget for a month or two), the nav apps are pretty inexpensive. I use iNavx with navionics charts. App cost me about $50 and all the charts for Canada (all coasts including Great Lakes) cost me another $50. With a built-in GPS, these tablets are pretty handy.


Mike... I don't understand... if you haven't started cruising yet and haven't left your home slip, anything you buy and add the boat before you leave would not be considered part of the $500 budget... wouldn't that budget kickoff when you leave your slip? Right now you're working somewhere I assume and you make the $$$ to buy what you need before you leave... I don't understand everyone's rant about breaking your $500/month budget buying whatever equipment/supplies you may need yet you haven't left port yet.


----------



## MikeOReilly

guitarguy56 said:


> Mike... I don't understand... if you haven't started cruising yet and haven't left your home slip, anything you buy and add the boat before you leave would not be considered part of the $500 budget... wouldn't that budget kickoff when you leave your slip? Right now you're working somewhere I assume and you make the $$$ to buy what you need before you leave... I don't understand everyone's rant about breaking your $500/month budget buying whatever equipment/supplies you may need yet you haven't left port yet.


Sorry ... I should have put a  or a  after the $500 comment. It was meant as a bit of a joke. I was just saying iPads are not that cheap. I fully agree with you, and am definitely not wrapped up in trying to justify my low-budget ambitions.

To be clear (in case anyone wants to know), our overt approach is to invest heavily in our boat and its systems now so that that our operating costs will be low for a number of years. We are spending a lot of money now b/c my wife and I are making good money, and have a lifestyle that allows us to divert a lot into the boat, and into savings. But when we pull the plug in a few months we will leave with no definite income. This is why low-cost cruising will have to be our future.


----------



## killarney_sailor

i bought a Standard Horizon VHF last year (not expensive) and has its own GPS. Nice for redundancy's sake. On our boat we have the GPS in the chart plotter, the GPS in the iPad, the GPS in the AIS unit, the GPS in the VHF, and the old Garmin 12 GPS. Surely one of these would work. In a thunderstorm we have been known to put the iPad in the microwave (Faraday cage apparently), and we have been hit by lightning so I know it is more than a theoretical possibility.

I think that there is a little bit of confusion in this discussion between knowing your location (what a GPS does) and plotting your location and progress (either with a chart plotter or on paper). The confusion is easy to understand since so many pieces of software and hardware combine the two functions seamlessly, even though they are separate.

Another thought, if you are going any significant distance, the cost of charts (not to mention the space requirements) are huge. We had paper charts when we crossed the Pacific and this came to 120 charts -and this was only for the South Pacific to about Fiji. We looked at perhaps three charts in a year just to get another look at things. For the Indian Ocean and South Atlantic we did not have any paper charts, just electronic redundancy (3 sets in total - on chart plotter, iPad, and laptop). What I would recommend instead of paper charts are cruising guides, people's blogs, letters in the SSCA Bulletins, etc. These provide the kind of detailed and current info you really need. BTW, when we were in Indonesia, paper charts from US and British sources (and electronic charts using these) were virtually useless since they showed no detail for the areas cruisers would be interested in. In a bay a mile wide there would be one sounding and it would be wrong. At one point we were anchored inland and crossed about a mile of land, while the depth sounder could not find the bottom (it usually is good to 400'). The Indonesian charts (old Dutch hydrography I assume) were better (not good mind you), but I have no idea where you get them - probably Djakarta but good luck arranging the purchase (they were also more than $30 each).

Some people say you can trade charts but this only works if you can mail them to someone upwind. The people you meet anywhere (let me pick a place - Tahiti) are not going where you have just been; they were there too. They also are going downwind toward NZ or Oz.


----------



## tdw

killarney_sailor said:


> Another thought, if you are going any significant distance, the cost of charts (not to mention the space requirements) are huge. We had paper charts when we crossed the Pacific and this came to 120 charts -and this was only for the South Pacific to about Fiji. We looked at perhaps three charts in a year just to get another look at things. For the Indian Ocean and South Atlantic we did not have any paper charts, just electronic redundancy (3 sets in total - on chart plotter, iPad, and laptop). What I would recommend instead of paper charts are cruising guides, people's blogs, letters in the SSCA Bulletins, etc.


I guess that Paper Charts and their cost given the quantity required could be considered a capital expense ? Nonetheless the expense could be crippling I agree, not to mention the stowage space required.

Question re the SSCA ..... outside of America did you find that resource useful ?

One point re charts .... in Oz their is no NOAA giving out free charts whether electronic or paper. Whle we did putter about the NSW coast using nowt but GPS for position and Paper Charts I'd have to acknowedge that with about as much redundancy as Killarney we very rarely look at them now even though until recently I'd still buy the paper if going somewhere new.

I do wonder how many cruising sailors would subscribe to the "we must have paper and sextant for when electronic armageddon arrives" would be quite so righteous if they didn't just cruise Nth America.


----------



## killarney_sailor

We found the SSCA resources useful beyond North America, for example, we were just at Ascension Island and there was a recent "letter" about the place that was helpful. If you were cruising in Europe a membership in the Cruising Association would make more sense. Would be nice if these organizations cooperated more with each other, but i guess to some extent they are friendly competitors.


----------



## Omatako

tdw said:


> I do wonder how many cruising sailors would subscribe to the "we must have paper and sextant for when electronic armageddon arrives" would be quite so righteous if they didn't just cruise Nth America.


Yes it must be nice to get charts for free.

If I were more attentive, we could probably buy a lot of used charts in NZ from cruisers that have done the Pacific and are on their way west. But to be honest, it's too much of a schlepp.

I make a habit of buying one or sometimes two new charts a month (I try to buy only British Admiralty charts, they last forever) - have built up a considerable library doing that. Also we have an auction website where one often finds used charts, cruising guides and pilots for sale. I try to get into those when I see them.

As far as stowage, if you stow folded/flat they don't take up a huge amount of room. I have a locker top on which we store folded charts and I probably have about 80 charts and they're only maybe 3 inches thick. I have another 15 inches of space. The problem is getting to the ones you need, I think that could be problematic when you have a few hundred


----------



## JonEisberg

tdw said:


> Originally Posted by killarney_sailor View Post
> Another thought, if you are going any significant distance, the cost of charts (not to mention the space requirements) are huge. We had paper charts when we crossed the Pacific and this came to 120 charts -and this was only for the South Pacific to about Fiji. We looked at perhaps three charts in a year just to get another look at things. For the Indian Ocean and South Atlantic we did not have any paper charts, just electronic redundancy (3 sets in total - on chart plotter, iPad, and laptop). What I would recommend instead of paper charts are cruising guides, people's blogs, letters in the SSCA Bulletins, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess that Paper Charts and their cost given the quantity required could be considered a capital expense ? Nonetheless the expense could be crippling I agree, not to mention the stowage space required.
> 
> One point re charts .... in Oz their is no NOAA giving out free charts whether electronic or paper. Whle we did putter about the NSW coast using nowt but GPS for position and Paper Charts I'd have to acknowedge that with about as much redundancy as Killarney we very rarely look at them now even though until recently I'd still buy the paper if going somewhere new.
> 
> I do wonder how many cruising sailors would subscribe to the "we must have paper and sextant for when electronic armageddon arrives" would be quite so righteous if they didn't just cruise Nth America.
Click to expand...

Well, I don't know about being "righteous", but I'm one of those who still likes to have paper aboard when I venture beyond the US, despite the fact that it can be a MAJOR budget-buster...

Which happens to be a point first raised _ MORE THAN 900 FREAKIN' POSTS AGO_...

(grin, bigtime)

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1285785-post115.html


----------



## outbound

+1 on inavx and chart books. Also have small handheld garmin as backups to the ray marine. Carry a cheap plastic Davis sextant with reductions in iPad. Belt and suspenders. Also great fun to do lower limb of moon and amaze the wife. She inherited a weems and Plath. Way to nice for me to get my grubby hands on. It sits someplace safe. Agree with Jon too cool to see the little circles cross they chart. Don't get the same kick when it's on a screen .


----------



## mitiempo

christian.hess said:


> question:
> 
> since we are on the topic of BUDGET navigation(jajaja)
> 
> whats everybodys latest cheap nav software kind of like captain software was 10-15 years ago?
> 
> I need cheap or free...something that will work on my HP laptop running windows 7
> 
> I have space on the hardrive and can get some extra space...I have the garmin 76cx which can be plugged into the laptop but has very basic plotting abilities
> 
> whats my best bet for these to equipment I have?
> 
> thanks
> christian


Christian

I would think OpenCPN (freeware) would be a good choice. I have it, along with world charts and it looks pretty good. Anyone I have talked to that uses it likes it.


----------



## tdw

JonEisberg said:


> Well, I don't know about being "righteous", but I'm one of those who still likes to have paper aboard when I venture beyond the US, despite the fact that it can be a MAJOR budget-buster...
> 
> Which happens to be a point first raised _ MORE THAN 900 FREAKIN' POSTS AGO_...
> 
> (grin, bigtime)
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1285785-post115.html


What goes around comes around ?

I too "like" to have paper charts but will I ? Not at all sure about that.

Like a lot of you I also love the tactility of paper but have to admit that just as my onboard library is rapidly turning into an E-Library and my onboard music collection is gradually turning into Spotify downloads I fear I may just be moving with the times and the more E-Books I read the more I find my resistance is futile.


----------



## christian.hess

man this thread is long1 jajaja I think I asked this same question before! sorry guys

so

open capn 

anybody else?

thanks


----------



## travlin-easy

JonEisberg said:


> Well, I don't know about being "righteous", but I'm one of those who still likes to have paper aboard when I venture beyond the US, despite the fact that it can be a MAJOR budget-buster...
> 
> Which happens to be a point first raised _ MORE THAN 900 FREAKIN' POSTS AGO_...
> 
> (grin, bigtime)
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1285785-post115.html


Jon, you're so old you can't remember 900 posts back.  Just kiddin. You know my feelings about paper - don't need them anymore. I have em, but they're just taking up valuable storage space in the chart table and on the book shelf. I can now store charts of the entire world on a small, USB thumb drive and have lots of room left over. Yes, the PC can die, but mice and critters could eat the charts, that is if they can stand the mold that's beginning to grow on the paper after five years in the chart table. 

BTW: For those that don't know Jon, he IS one Hell of a sailor and delivery captain.

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## newhaul

christian.hess said:


> question:
> 
> since we are on the topic of BUDGET navigation(jajaja)
> 
> whats everybodys latest cheap nav software kind of like captain software was 10-15 years ago?
> 
> I need cheap or free...something that will work on my HP laptop running windows 7
> 
> I have space on thehardrive and can get some extra space...I have the garmin 76cx which can b e plugged into the laptop but has very basic plotting abilities
> 
> whats my best bet for these to equipments I have?
> 
> when I was in california I used noaa charts downlodable but for some reason I simply used a paper chart as it didnt work for me downloading or something...I just used them for refernce while hopping down the coast
> 
> this was 2 years ago
> 
> so any help here?
> 
> thanks
> christian


. Christian

Check out this one may help on celestial navigation using a homemade octant those plans are also on this site. 
WWW.teacupnavigation.net


----------



## JonEisberg

travlineasy said:


> BTW: For those that don't know Jon, he IS one Hell of a sailor and delivery captain.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Thanks for the kind words, Gary - but nobody around here _REALLY_ knows that, for certain... )


----------



## aeventyr60

tdw said:


> What goes around comes around ?
> 
> I too "like" to have paper charts but will I ? Not at all sure about that.
> 
> Like a lot of you I also love the tactility of paper but have to admit that just as my onboard library is rapidly turning into an E-Library and my onboard music collection is gradually turning into Spotify downloads I fear I may just be moving with the times and the more E-Books I read the more I find my resistance is futile.


When you get up to Darwin there is a guy that does chart copies. About 100 bucks should see you up to Singapore and maybe beyond. MaxC and the captain off in Indonesia....Got tired of seeing my track go across reefs and land masses so turned it off. Cheap insurance those old paper charts....


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## christian.hess

aeventry what is max c?

im all for paper and guides...the opencapn or whatever is backup


----------



## outbound

They say it's not the ocean that kills you- its the hard edges. In that vein had a cruiser follow me last summer into my home port. Asked him later why. Said all his various screens died. He figured my draft was deeper than his so he'd be safe. Good thing I'm not a centerboard. Guess if you really wanted to be low cost could do DR/celestial until you got to the harbor you wanted then wait and follow someone in. Wife makes fun of me but have a small bag with a knot stick, lead line and hand held weather station/anemometer under the nav station seat. With a paper chart, hockey puck compass ( or compass in binocs) and way to read depths you can almost always figure out where you are near the hard edges. If I was small boat voyaging by myself could see forgoing all the electronics and not feel that insecure. Now a days even if retired you have time constraints ( meet this one- drop off that one- get on land to do this or that or wife is on you). All those electronics do make planning much easier. Still hate seeing the person behind the wheel with their head in a screen and the crew sitting in the cockpit with their heads down staring at a smart phone. Why the hell go sailing?


----------



## tdw

Christian,
CMap

C-MAP MAX & MAX/PC Coverage - World Wide | Light Marine | Jeppesen


----------



## Brent Swain

With the number of boats being abandoned ,cut up for scrap, etc., there is a huge supply of used paper charts out there, somewhere.
I think good seamanship would mean giving them priority over booze cooling.


----------



## Brent Swain

christian.hess said:


> question:
> 
> since we are on the topic of BUDGET navigation(jajaja)
> 
> whats everybodys latest cheap nav software kind of like captain software was 10-15 years ago?
> 
> I need cheap or free...something that will work on my HP laptop running windows 7
> 
> I have space on thehardrive and can get some extra space...I have the garmin 76cx which can b e plugged into the laptop but has very basic plotting abilities
> 
> whats my best bet for these to equipments I have?
> 
> when I was in california I used noaa charts downlodable but for some reason I simply used a paper chart as it didnt work for me downloading or something...I just used them for refernce while hopping down the coast
> 
> this was 2 years ago
> 
> so any help here?
> 
> thanks
> christian


A handheld GPS is all you really need . Princess Auto had one for $89.


----------



## christian.hess

I have one...was just wondering about backup software to my paper charts...

and I agree that IS all I need but appreciate that my boat came with a nice furuno hardwired system that has a great signal all the time!

ps. no princess auto down here! jajaja

btw I just bought a the cheapest fishfinder I could find down here a garmin 150

use it as a backup depthsounder


----------



## Brent Swain

When my depth sounder gave out in Tonga, I was told a new one was unavailable there.
Now I always carry a spare. They are cheap enough.


----------



## travlin-easy

Depth finder have advanced over the years to the point where they're almost disposable. They're so powerful that they'll shoot through fiberglass hulls 4 to 6 inches thick as if they were not even there, and they'll even transmit and receive through thick aluminum hulls. I've never tried to shoot one through a steel hull, though.

Gary


----------



## christian.hess

Brent Swain said:


> When my depth sounder gave out in Tonga, I was told a new one was unavailable there.
> Now I always carry a spare. They are cheap enough.


searching ebay the cheapest standalone depthsounder was a lot more expensive than a midrange fishfinder

Ill be using the fishfinder as a shoot thru hull with a nice dab if silicone, or baby oil bath or whatever as soon as I get the best signal....


----------



## christian.hess

travlineasy said:


> Depth finder have advanced over the years to the point where they're almost disposable. They're so powerful that they'll shoot through fiberglass hulls 4 to 6 inches thick as if they were not even there, and they'll even transmit and receive through thick aluminum hulls. I've never tried to shoot one through a steel hull, though.
> 
> Gary


my last boat ysed a fishfinder as the main depthsounder....nice color screen and all and it was used a a shoot through even though its a common skimmer type fishinder for powerboats...

hope I luck out and it works...my last boat was thicker than my current one so here hoping!

ps I agree some damn cheap stuff that works well these days... gps, spot messengers, fishfinders vhf all for great prices and easy to find...

20 years back in the 90s I clearly remember begging to find a used gps for like $300!

jajajaja


----------



## abarth

When I went looking for a depth sounder for my small sailboat a few years back, my gaze quickly turned to fish finders and then, why not, a gps/sounder. For less than $400 ( now 369 ) I got a color chartplotter, gps, sounder, trip, speed, log, battery voltage, time, sunrise/sunset, anchor alarm, etc.. and charts for ALL of Canada (or the US ). It's only a 4" display but I find it does the job and being small it doesn't need a lot of power. At 1/3 amp I could run it 12 hrs a day for 2 or 3 weeks off a car battery.


----------



## Group9

christian.hess said:


> my last boat ysed a fishfinder as the main depthsounder....nice color screen and all and it was used a a shoot through even though its a common skimmer type fishinder for powerboats...
> 
> hope I luck out and it works...my last boat was thicker than my current one so here hoping!
> 
> ps I agree some damn cheap stuff that works well these days... gps, spot messengers, fishfinders vhf all for great prices and easy to find...
> 
> 20 years back in the 90s I clearly remember begging to find a used gps for like $300!
> 
> jajajaja


I full expect to see GPS's in the kid's toy rack in a few years for $10 that are as good as a $800 GPS from just a few years ago (the first electronic calculator I ever saw didn't do anything but add, subtract, multiply and divide, and it sold for $400).


----------



## christian.hess

well thats a bargain aint it?

group 9 you jumped in there but I guess sarcastically the same applies to your post! AJAJAJAJAJA


----------



## MikeOReilly

Our spare depth sounder is a lead line, complete with a wax grab well so we can sample the bottom. When we bought our current boat it came with a dead depth sounder. We had to sail it back home, through unfamiliar water, so we dug out the lead line and were off. We spent that entire first season without a functioning depth sounder. The lead line was all we had, and it worked just fine. Made us a bit more cautious when entering strange anchorages, and anchoring probably took a bit longer, but no big deal really.

Don't get me wrong, I like working depth sounder. But it only took a short time to get used to using a lead line.


----------



## newhaul

My GPS is a used cobra GPS 100 older but still works good ten bucks at second hand Chandler's (longship marine) gives lat and lon to the tenth of a second.
Handheld and waterproof to ten meters it says


----------



## Group9

MikeOReilly said:


> Our spare depth sounder is a lead line, complete with a wax grab well so we can sample the bottom. When we bought our current boat it came with a dead depth sounder. We had to sail it back home, through unfamiliar water, so we dug out the lead line and were off. We spent that entire first season without a functioning depth sounder. The lead line was all we had, and it worked just fine. Made us a bit more cautious when entering strange anchorages, and anchoring probably took a bit longer, but no big deal really.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I like working depth sounder. But it only took a short time to get used to using a lead line.


I used to use a lead line all of the time when I first started sailing. My first sailboat had no electronics except an intermittent depth gauge (it only seemed to work in water that I knew was deep enough) and a VHF radio (which we could use to use to make phone calls back then if we kept out later than we planned and you would actually read your credit card numbers off to the operator (to show how innocent the world was back then), or make it collect). I made my lead line from an old window weight.


----------



## ccriders

Bene505 said:


> This is what he's afraid his freezer will look like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


Did my wife send you that picture. Exactly like hers, even the stuff stored on the outsides.
John


----------



## Bene505

ccriders said:


> Did my wife send you that picture. Exactly like hers, even the stuff stored on the outsides.
> John


Funny.

No I got it off Google Images.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## Brent Swain

ccriders said:


> Did my wife send you that picture. Exactly like hers, even the stuff stored on the outsides.
> John


Looks like a power failure could cost you a fortune with that rig!


----------



## travlin-easy

Ironically, I had to watch a friend's 42 Hunter in Marathon's Boot Key Harbor last winter while he drove home to take care of his ailing brother who had underwent bypass surgery and was having a rough time. He hoped his solar panel (500-watt) would keep his house batteries charged enough to take care of his fully stocked onboard refrigerator/freezer - it didn't. We had about 7 days of cloudy weather and one afternoon I went out to check on his boat and the stench was enough to kill a horse. I threw away more than $1,500 in food that had spoiled in the freezer and refrigerator, then spent two days cleaning it out with bleach water and detergents. It was a horrendous mess. When he came back to the boat a month later, he and his wife both said if they would have come back to that smell, they would have tossed a match into the cabin and just dinghy'd away and let it burn to the waterline and sink.

We remain good friends and I hope to see them this coming summer when I sail down to northern Virginia where they currently reside.

Gary


----------



## Lou452

Group9 said:


> I used to use a lead line all of the time when I first started sailing. My first sailboat had no electronics except an intermittent depth gauge (it only seemed to work in water that I knew was deep enough) and a VHF radio (which we could use to use to make phone calls back then if we kept out later than we planned and you would actually read your credit card numbers off to the operator (to show how innocent the world was back then), or make it collect). I made my lead line from an old window weight.


A fishing pole and a bobber is a good tool. Use a small bobber and a large sinker. You can set your depth. If the bobber sinks you should float. You can find the shallow water as far away as you can cast. The keel can find all the shallow water right next to the boat. :laugher 
Kind Regards, Lou


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## christian.hess

nice! thanks for that, reminds me I need a fishing pole


----------



## Group9

christian.hess said:


> well thats a bargain aint it?
> 
> group 9 you jumped in there but I guess sarcastically the same applies to your post! AJAJAJAJAJA


That is one great thing about electronics. In a world where so many things get more expensive, and of lesser quality, electronics just keep getting cheaper and better!


----------



## mrhoneydew

What? Have we stalled on this thread? Come on guys... I need this. I am at a point where I am working on weening myself from the comforts, conveniences, and expenses of the city (Seattle). After I finish a large amount of work when I haul out in mid-April I plan to start cruising the Puget Sound and San Juans to get a feel for my boat (new to me last September). All of the discussion on this thread about provisioning, making money while cruising, and means of navigation, etc. helps to keep me going during these unseasonably cold months. So... what is another topic we can address with budget cruising in mind? What about untying the lines? What are some ideas for helping to transition from landlubber to cruising?


----------



## barefootnavigator

OK here's one, I used a standard sized bottle of extermly mild organic dish soap for 9 months. I used it to do all my dishes, wash my dog, wash my bike and boat and shower and wash my hair. 4 bucks for 9 months. You can only use the organic kind for this if you wash your boat the Joy type soap it will strip all your wax instantly and you wouldn't want it on you or your dog either.


----------



## MikeOReilly

mrhoneydew said:


> What about untying the lines? What are some ideas for helping to transition from landlubber to cruising?


My wife and I are beginning our journey this summer ... if the water ever turns soft again (don't you dare complain about winters in Seattle -- try ours ). Our cruising has, up until now, been limited to seasonal trips up to seven or eight weeks at the most. It will be interesting to see if this departure feels any different. I don't expect it to, but life is full of surprises. We'll see.

In keeping with the frugal cruising idea, our way (and it sounds like yours as well) is to go slowly, and set conservative objectives. It seems to me that one sure way to drive up costs is to have a schedule -- to stick to a plan. We have no where in particular to go, and we have lots of time to get there. There is wonder everywhere you travel. This notion of "gotta see this" and " bucket list that" just seems silly to me. There is adventure and learning everywhere. Go slow, and enjoy.

... not sure if this advances the thread at all, or is what you were looking for mrhoneydew, but there ya go.


----------



## christian.hess

NO SCHEDULES! no I have to be here at this moment or else

just go...

untying the lines:

my advice...cruise to a place very close to where you are currently living...set the hook and take a break from all the "refitting" and provisioning...

if you like the feeling of being on the hook even though you are so close just keep going...the boat that is...

even if you have to buy more gear or fix stuff on the boat DO NOT GO BACK TO YOUR HARBOR...just keep going

this is what we did on our first virgin cruise...we actually bought stuff along the way and provisioned too

we even had ssb antenna installed in downwind marine in san diego...before setting off on the baja haha but even in mexico we were tweaking stuff to our liking as we did in costa rica, panama, etc...

just dont look back or think the boat is not ready...it is much more ready than you are...boats love it!

cheers


----------



## mrhoneydew

barefootnavigator said:


> OK here's one, I used a standard sized bottle of extermly mild organic dish soap for 9 months. I used it to do all my dishes, wash my dog, wash my bike and boat and shower and wash my hair. 4 bucks for 9 months. You can only use the organic kind for this if you wash your boat the Joy type soap it will strip all your wax instantly and you wouldn't want it on you or your dog either.


Excellent! Frugal, multiple uses, and minimal stowage space. I like it.


----------



## christian.hess

i used JOY in the same manner jejeje

it suds in saltwater, helps dipserse fuel spills too...and workd great as a degreaser...it also cleans the hell oyt of old nappy salty hair...

cleans the bum just fine too! 

ajaja


----------



## Bene505

barefootnavigator said:


> OK here's one, I used a standard sized bottle of extermly mild organic dish soap for 9 months. I used it to do all my dishes, wash my dog, wash my bike and boat and shower and wash my hair. 4 bucks for 9 months. You can only use the organic kind for this if you wash your boat the Joy type soap it will strip all your wax instantly and you wouldn't want it on you or your dog either.


BFN,

What brand do you use for this?

Regards,
Brad


----------



## mrhoneydew

MikeOReilly said:


> My wife and I are beginning our journey this summer ... if the water ever turns soft again (don't you dare complain about winters in Seattle -- try ours ). Our cruising has, up until now, been limited to seasonal trips up to seven or eight weeks at the most. It will be interesting to see if this departure feels any different. I don't expect it to, but life is full of surprises. We'll see.
> 
> In keeping with the frugal cruising idea, our way (and it sounds like yours as well) is to go slowly, and set conservative objectives. It seems to me that one sure way to drive up costs is to have a schedule -- to stick to a plan. We have no where in particular to go, and we have lots of time to get there. There is wonder everywhere you travel. This notion of "gotta see this" and " bucket list that" just seems silly to me. There is adventure and learning everywhere. Go slow, and enjoy.
> 
> ... not sure if this advances the thread at all, or is what you were looking for mrhoneydew, but there ya go.


MikeO, I feel for ya buddy. You win the coldness contest.  I'm just a bit of a wuss when it comes to being cold. Part of my reason for even getting a boat in the first place is so I can seek out palm trees, turquoise waters, and bikini-clad girls on sandy beaches.  I had thought just before I started reading this thread in early January that I would get a bunch of work done on my boat, save up some $, and head out by the beginning of September. Partly because the one year anniversary of when I acquired the boat is Sept 10 and a year seemed like a good goal, and partly because any later and I would miss my window to head down the West Coast before weather gets too bad. But... I ultimately decided that such a condensed timeline was too stressful. I want to enjoy the summer here in some of the most spectacular cruising grounds on earth and take some time to get my boat dialed in. I doubt I will be ready to head South this year. Then again, I may just decide to head out the Strait of Juan de Fuca, hang a left, and just keep going. I'll know when I decide. 

I do surmise that this time for you leaving will feel different in some way because before when you have left to cruise you have known in the back of your mind that you would be coming back at some particular date. You will not have that this time. And that is part of what keeps me going--to one day not have that nagging feeling in the back of my mind that there is some place I really need to be or something I really need to do based on someone else's schedule. At present I am starting to slowly make that mental transition as best I can, though it is more of a challenge on land.


----------



## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> my advice...cruise to a place very close to where you are currently living...set the hook and take a break from all the "refitting" and provisioning...
> 
> if you like the feeling of being on the hook even though you are so close just keep going...the boat that is...


What Christian says!

Not quite the same thing, but in our first season with our Rafiki we had tons of things to do on the boat. We finally said, the heck with it, and left. We sailed to a nearby, but nicely remote anchorage, dropped the hook, and continued to rig the new (to us) windvane, sort out the rig, get the electronics in order, and reorganized a bunch of other things including the anchor system and the galley. After three days we headed off for six weeks, including our first overnight crossing on this boat.

The best thing we did was to get away from the dock. No more running off to the hardware store, no more second-guessing. We decided if we didn't have it, we would make do without it. And we had a great trip.

At some point, you just gotta go.


----------



## Group9

christian.hess said:


> i used JOY in the same manner jejeje
> 
> it suds in saltwater, helps dipserse fuel spills too...and workd great as a degreaser...it also cleans the hell oyt of old nappy salty hair...
> 
> cleans the bum just fine too!
> 
> ajaja


We used to have a hunting camp that had well water that had so many minerals in it, that Joy soap was the only thing that would lather in it, so that's what we bathed with there, too.


----------



## mrhoneydew

christian.hess said:


> NO SCHEDULES! no I have to be here at this moment or else
> 
> just go...
> 
> untying the lines:
> 
> my advice...cruise to a place very close to where you are currently living...set the hook and take a break from all the "refitting" and provisioning...
> 
> if you like the feeling of being on the hook even though you are so close just keep going...the boat that is...
> 
> even if you have to buy more gear or fix stuff on the boat DO NOT GO BACK TO YOUR HARBOR...just keep going
> 
> this is what we did on our first virgin cruise...we actually bought stuff along the way and provisioned too
> 
> we even had ssb antenna installed in downwind marine in san diego...before setting off on the baja haha but even in mexico we were tweaking stuff to our liking as we did in costa rica, panama, etc...
> 
> just dont look back or think the boat is not ready...it is much more ready than you are...boats love it!
> 
> cheers


Good advice.  I am less concerned about provisioning. That I will do along the way. But the refitting...? Well, you haven't seen my boat. It was pretty neglected and before I feel confident in going any distance I need to haul out and check out major systems. The little cosmetic things I can and will do along the way. I am thinking I will just stay in the place I am going for haul-out (Port Townsend) since it is further out on the way to the Pacific and I will not come back to Seattle. There are still some things I need to do work-wise before I can totally leave and for that I need to be moored somewhere with access to my truck. But it will be a step. Just getting out of the city will be a step.


----------



## MikeOReilly

mrhoneydew said:


> I do surmise that this time for you leaving will feel different in some way because before when you have left to cruise you have known in the back of your mind that you would be coming back at some particular date. You will not have that this time.


True. On our Great Lakes journeys, there always came a time when we knew we had to start heading back. This has always been hard. We would joke about how we could easily just keep going. The boat is fine, we're loving it, we've got enough food to last another month or so ... why not just keep going. But duties, obligations, and the need to make $$$, have always pulled us back.

NOT THIS TIME!

So yeah, it probably will feel different. I'll probably start a blog, or some such thing, so I'll let you all know.

As for your cruising ground, I'm rather envious. I love the PNW. I've sailed out of Vancouver, north to the edge of Desolation Sound, and around the area. It reminds me a lot of Lake Superior with its rugged beauty and tons of small anchorages everywhere. We toyed with the idea of trucking out boat out to the west coast to begin our travels, but the costs were prohibitive. So we may get there in five or six years by water ... or we may not. Who knows. That's the fun of heading out with no real plans.

Enjoy the time in your area. It's an amazing place.


----------



## Lou452

abarth said:


> When I went looking for a depth sounder for my small sailboat a few years back, my gaze quickly turned to fish finders and then, why not, a gps/sounder. For less than $400 ( now 369 ) I got a color chartplotter, gps, sounder, trip, speed, log, battery voltage, time, sunrise/sunset, anchor alarm, etc.. and charts for ALL of Canada (or the US ). It's only a 4" display but I find it does the job and being small it doesn't need a lot of power. At 1/3 amp I could run it 12 hrs a day for 2 or 3 weeks off a car battery.


What kind and where did you find it ?? 
Regards, Lou


----------



## newhaul

barefootnavigator said:


> OK here's one, I used a standard sized bottle of extermly mild organic dish soap for 9 months. I used it to do all my dishes, wash my dog, wash my bike and boat and shower and wash my hair. 4 bucks for 9 months. You can only use the organic kind for this if you wash your boat the Joy type soap it will strip all your wax instantly and you wouldn't want it on you or your dog either.


Fifteen for large bottle of mane and tail shampoo at the feed store vice twenty two at wally world lasts near two years


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

MikeOReilly said:


> We finally said, the heck with it, and left.


I may not have gone on anywhere, but that's pretty much what I did this past year. I decided, enough projects, I'm going to sail today and just went for it. A few hours on the water was a great break that I needed to clear my mind and relax. I didn't have to think about work or house and stress was gone and it was good.


----------



## newhaul

Watched the giveaway box at marina got twelve volt dehumidifier free including a 120 volt power supply 
Peltier plate tech works great


----------



## abarth

Lou452 said:


> What kind and where did you find it ??
> Regards, Lou


Lou, it's a Lowrance Elite-4 w/ special Navionics chart bundle. It seems you can buy it just about anywhere, ie westmarine. One of the big attractions for me was the charts. I'm not sure why they are called special, they seem to be the proper charts. I've only had it in Georgian Bay but I could not see any difference between it and paper charts so I'm going to guess the coastal charts contained would be good and not some stripped down version.


----------



## christian.hess

newhaul said:


> Fifteen for large bottle of mane and tail shampoo at the feed store vice twenty two at wally world lasts near two years


hilarious thats what my wife uses for her silky smooth hair

well according to her that is...

guess Ill use it on the boat then cause we got a couple of big bottles left


----------



## newhaul

christian.hess said:


> hilarious thats what my wife uses for her silky smooth hair
> 
> well according to her that is...
> 
> guess Ill use it on the boat then cause we got a couple of big bottles left


They use it on multimillion dollar show horses so it must be good and if you get it at the feed store its lots cheaper than the people store


----------



## mrhoneydew

I could stretch a bottle of soap... whatever the brand... pretty far. Shaved head! 

I do have a question for the thread. What about mail or a mailing address? I don't have (or want) a house and I'm not sure I want to saddle some poor friend or relative with my personal affairs. Simplifying by not having bills, etc. is certainly good for a lot of reasons, but won't I still have to have my boat registered somewhere? I haven't decided about insurance or just winging it. What do some of you do/plan to do?


----------



## Group9

mrhoneydew said:


> I could stretch a bottle of soap... whatever the brand... pretty far. Shaved head!
> 
> I do have a question for the thread. What about mail or a mailing address? I don't have (or want) a house and I'm not sure I want to saddle some poor friend or relative with my personal affairs. Simplifying by not having bills, etc. is certainly good for a lot of reasons, but won't I still have to have my boat registered somewhere? I haven't decided about insurance or just winging it. What do some of you do/plan to do?


I got a box at the UPS Store in my home town and forwarded all of my mails and bills there. Then I would periodically, about once a month,have them put all of my mail in a box and send it to where ever I was. It's so easy these days to pay what bills you do have over the internet, and that's what I did with every bill I could. It was a good place to have small items delivered to as well.


----------



## guitarguy56

Another option is to use the marinas as your mailing address... this is what I did up in at the Everett Marina for 9 months... but you have to pay slip fees to get this service unfortunately.


----------



## mrhoneydew

I'll have to check with the mailbox place where I get my mail to see if they will box and mail everything to me periodically. Though my preference is, of course, to have no need for a mailing address at all.


----------



## Brent Swain

I solve the bills problem by simply not having any monthly bills.


----------



## Brent Swain

christian.hess said:


> NO SCHEDULES! no I have to be here at this moment or else
> 
> just go...
> 
> untying the lines:
> 
> my advice...cruise to a place very close to where you are currently living...set the hook and take a break from all the "refitting" and provisioning...
> 
> if you like the feeling of being on the hook even though you are so close just keep going...the boat that is...
> 
> even if you have to buy more gear or fix stuff on the boat DO NOT GO BACK TO YOUR HARBOR...just keep going
> 
> this is what we did on our first virgin cruise...we actually bought stuff along the way and provisioned too
> 
> we even had ssb antenna installed in downwind marine in san diego...before setting off on the baja haha but even in mexico we were tweaking stuff to our liking as we did in costa rica, panama, etc...
> 
> just dont look back or think the boat is not ready...it is much more ready than you are...boats love it!
> 
> cheers


Slocum told the New York Times he was going to sail around the world. Then he sailed to Nova Scotia, to take his time, away from all the distractions, to finish getting ready ,and leave when he was damned well ready , on his time, not anyone else's. They wrote him off as a liar. Then he sailed around the world. That is what is called "Seamanship."
When I launched my current boat, a month after the steel arrived, she was just a bare shell, but I was away from town , and progress was consequently far greater than it could ever have been in a city.The amount of money spent was also much lower. I could do days of progress, without spending a nickle. When I went to town, I had a list ,and stuck to it. Then I went back to the boat did whatever I could, with what I had. If I couldn't finish the project I was on, I would carry on to the next one ,and so on, and pick up what I needed next trip to town . I got her sailing in a fraction the number of man hours and dollars it would have taken in town.


----------



## christian.hess

too many distractions in the city and docks for me...I always felt little and small and unequipped when dolking anywhere and despite the fact that I always enjpoyed being a small boat and frugal it got old everytime someone would be so flabbergasted my boat made it somewhere

then when I told them my boat is quite the offshore boat and has many circumnavs under its name I usually put peoiple off and they just looked the other way

funny stuff I guess

I remember when at anchor I was always extremely happy, went fishing, diving, sun bathing, ate whatever I could find or had in the cabinets...read so much and pretty much soaked up life...met locals or other like minded cruisers etc...

as soon as I had to provisiion or stockup or do paperwork or whatever cruising showed its ugly side...

but as humans and cruisers we HAVE TO DEAL with that in order to enjoy the real goodies in life...

you know the free stuff...

about provisioning or building a boat or stocking up etc...its not so much what you have or how you do it its what you do WITH it thay counts....

so for me thats living it up on a 24 footer versus spending 20 years of my life building a 50 footers and being ready when my heart attack is set to begin

much rather be frugal, low budget and not "ready" if you will than be completely refit to the moon only to not have my health back me up...

as we all know, that´s how you get great cruisers in ready to go mode....

how many health forces sale adds do you see on craigslist or god forbid death in the family sales?

a lot!

it makes me sad realy but I understand it...sometimes its just too hard

sorry for the derail


----------



## MikeOReilly

Here's a frugal-cruising skill I'm expecting to develop: careening. Anyone done it? How hard is it to find a good place? How dangerous or difficult is it?

If you've done it, what is your process? Do you look for dock walls or sloping beaches? How do you scout and plan the event. What lines/anchors do you use? How do you lay it all out? 

I guess I have a ton of questions. Love to hear from people who've done it.


----------



## mrhoneydew

Good one! I haven't careened but I am likewise interested. I have read a bit and from what I gather it takes a significant tidal range (~15+/- foot range?). There aren't a great many places where this works out. Of those that do with a dock to tie up to, pretty much nowhere will allow painting or any likewise toxic work to be done. Out on some desolate island in the South Pacific? That could work. I am interested to hear how people do it. I suspect you carefully situate the boat so it will lay on one side in the soft sand, do your work on the exposed side, wait for the tide to lift the boat, then let it go back out while you lay the boat over on the opposite side, and repeat. Am I far off on this? I don't plan to carry boat stands. 

Apart from careening, I plan to regularly dive on my hull to clean, scrape and inspect it. My bottom paint is a hard paint that won't sluff off every time I go over it. Anything to reduce haul-outs and time in the yard.


----------



## Rozz

guess this depends on how long you are thinking. is this for a few years or sustainable? minus my booze but im making my own, so thats better, i think it is very conceivable to do. i have been practicing lots of survival at sea things (what algae to eat with what seaweed[prevent scurvy],fishing,traping ect), and thats all free. my downside is i dont like seafood lol
my only issue is reserve capital. big expense items (sails,bottom paint,stays ect) only last so long and having the $ to cover those is important to the lifestyle. 
with that said, if ur budget is $500 but u have $600 coming in and $2,500 reserve. have a blast! bare minimums are my plans too


----------



## killarney_sailor

My only experience with careening was being sympathetic toward a guy in Ecuador who tried it and ended up with a broken mast. The river we were in had a large tidal range (you don't need anywhere near 15'). It also had major problems with siltation of materials from up in the mountains. Bahia had been the most important port in Ecuador but had shallowed to the point where you need a pilot to enter and leave.

There was a solid dock with little water at it. He hired a backhoe to deepen the water and took his gorgeous Tayana 37 pilothouse to the dock at high tide. He tied to shore but the keel apparently sank into the sand unevenly so the boat heeled away from the dock. It fell on its side and the mast snapped from the shock (no impact with anything). When we left Ecuador he was trying to figure out the logistics of getting a new mast sent to Ecuador or whether he could motor to Panama (~600 miles).

We have a longish keel that is quite wide so I have considered careening but I would only want to do it somewhere where it is the norm and I could be sure that the boat would be properly supported. I know that in some locales they have pairs of pilings driven into the bottom that you could tie to.


----------



## MikeOReilly

killarney_sailor said:


> There was a solid dock with little water at it. He hired a backhoe to deepen the water and took his gorgeous Tayana 37 pilothouse to the dock at high tide. He tied to shore but the keel apparently sank into the sand unevenly so the boat heeled away from the dock. It fell on its side and the mast snapped from the shock (no impact with anything). When we left Ecuador he was trying to figure out the logistics of getting a new mast sent to Ecuador or whether he could motor to Panama (~600 miles).


This is exactly the kind of scenario that prompted my query. Seems to me there could be a lot of potential energy built up in any system that involves leaning or heeling sizeable cruising boats. Even heeling as the tide goes out has the potential for major problems. One slip, one snapped line, one rock in the wrong place, and suddenly you've got a lot of energy that is doing bad things to good boats.


----------



## travlin-easy

Just checked out the U.S. Postal service mail forwarding service, it's ridiculously expensive $17 a week, and the three cruisers that I talked with said the mail often took two to three weeks longer to reach them. Their solution was to have a neighbor or relative pick up their mail and at the end of the week place the non-junk mail stuff into a shipping envelope and mail it to them. About $3 including the cost of the mailing bag and they had it within two days after it was sent from home. The reason I inquired about this at all was that the next cruise I take my wife is going to fly down to the sunny south and meet up with me. If she decides to stay a few months, all the checks and income tax forms arrive in the dead of winter. Getting those taxes completed prior to April 15th, for me at least, as a self employed businessman, is an arduous task to say the very least. It take me two to three days of hard work to compile everything and mail in the forms. Yes, you can do it online, but I'm not going to do that - I don't trust the SOBs!

Gary


----------



## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> Here's a frugal-cruising skill I'm expecting to develop: careening. Anyone done it? How hard is it to find a good place? How dangerous or difficult is it?
> 
> If you've done it, what is your process? Do you look for dock walls or sloping beaches? How do you scout and plan the event. What lines/anchors do you use? How do you lay it all out?
> 
> I guess I have a ton of questions. Love to hear from people who've done it.


careening you say?

el salvador style here baby


----------



## christian.hess

fin keel in mud no problem...the key is sandbags...jejeje

peace

there are more pics in my thread and details...


----------



## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> careening you say?
> 
> el salvador style here baby


YEESH! That's great. How is it being held up??? You gotta explain.

I see a line from the port stern angling up out of the picture, and perhaps another line port forward beam. Both look way too small though. Doesn't look like it's leaning against anything.

You sure this isn't photoshopped .


----------



## christian.hess

that will cost you a beer jeje



anchors stuck in mud...4 lines from the mast tip tp all quarters...

sandbags on keel mud bottom so it wont sink and fenders on port side at what 3 or 4 degree angle so it settles fine

in all honesty the workers did this often so I was there for the last part...and the glass work and keel work...

simple really

and my fin is maybe only 4 feet long at the tip so it can be done on most any boat for sure

full moon tides helps too


----------



## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> that will cost you a beer jeje


Beers definitely on me .

Wow, that still looks ... precarious. So the masthead lines are just to stabilize the boat against being blown or pushed over? Great idea about the bean bags. Makes a lot of sense.

I'm still amazed -- and heartened. I've got a full, fat keel. If yours can stand on that little peg of a keel p) mine should be very easy.


----------



## christian.hess

thats why I love full flat keels...this is only my second fin keeler...all my other boats have had nice long and flat or round in the case of my old folkboat...

careening on flat keels is the easiest thing ever...just lean against a wall and no need for all the mast lines etc

btw it LOOKS precarious but its hard to tip over when you have 4 30lb acnhors suctioned in mud with chain and lines to the mast...

you can see that some of the lines have twangs(eyes where you can draw them tight) using the main winches...

with full keels if you have a wall or dock with big tides all you do is make fast to the cleats on the wall, and slowly make taight the winch lines while the tide goes out needing only to make sure the boat doesnt tip forward(more comon than back)

you can also on full keelers tie nice boards that are flat kind of like a skid plate to the bottom of the keel and up to the decks, that way you have a nice flat surface to work as well as protect the keel a bit when the last bit of tide goes out or if waves pass by, etc...

this only work if the surface is hard like gravel or hardpack sand etc...

the those big piling are what actually hold the boat steady...


----------



## Brent Swain

Rozz said:


> guess this depends on how long you are thinking. is this for a few years or sustainable? minus my booze but im making my own, so thats better, i think it is very conceivable to do. i have been practicing lots of survival at sea things (what algae to eat with what seaweed[prevent scurvy],fishing,traping ect), and thats all free. my downside is i dont like seafood lol
> my only issue is reserve capital. big expense items (sails,bottom paint,stays ect) only last so long and having the $ to cover those is important to the lifestyle.
> with that said, if ur budget is $500 but u have $600 coming in and $2,500 reserve. have a blast! bare minimums are my plans too


We are awash in used sails for a tenth the cost of new ,far less than the cost of materials, and most other gear, especially now that so many boats are being scrapped. We bought enough 1x7 high tensile 5/16th galvanized rigging wire in a a scrapyard to rig a 36 footer , for $24 .By drying out, I have only hauled out twice in a boat yard in 29 years, and only then because I was in an area without sufficient tidal range to dry, out and 4,000 miles of windward sailing ahead of me.


----------



## Brent Swain

My last boat was a single keeler, with no antifouling, which I dried out frequently. I remember being tied to a dock in Plumper Cove. After scraping the bottom someone asked me how I intended to clean the bottom of the keel . "Easy " I said as I untied her and gave her a kick. She flopped over on her chine with a thump, exposing the entire bottom of the keel. Now, with my twin keeler, I spend a lot of time dried out, just for the convenience. Glad I never went for another single keeler. 
A friend with a plastic fin keeler simply moors on hard sand, with bow and stern anchors, and she lays gently down on the sand. To paint the other side, he has to make sure she lays down the other way, by being around to put his weigh on one side, when she touches down . In BC there are enough remote places where you will never see big brother (nor anyone) from one year to the next, so you can do whatever you please. Alaska is even more like that.


----------



## Brent Swain

killarney_sailor said:


> My only experience with careening was being sympathetic toward a guy in Ecuador who tried it and ended up with a broken mast. The river we were in had a large tidal range (you don't need anywhere near 15'). It also had major problems with siltation of materials from up in the mountains. Bahia had been the most important port in Ecuador but had shallowed to the point where you need a pilot to enter and leave.
> 
> There was a solid dock with little water at it. He hired a backhoe to deepen the water and took his gorgeous Tayana 37 pilothouse to the dock at high tide. He tied to shore but the keel apparently sank into the sand unevenly so the boat heeled away from the dock. It fell on its side and the mast snapped from the shock (no impact with anything). When we left Ecuador he was trying to figure out the logistics of getting a new mast sent to Ecuador or whether he could motor to Panama (~600 miles).
> 
> We have a longish keel that is quite wide so I have considered careening but I would only want to do it somewhere where it is the norm and I could be sure that the boat would be properly supported. I know that in some locales they have pairs of pilings driven into the bottom that you could tie to.


Sounds like a pretty fragile mast, or rig.


----------



## Omatako

I saw what Christian posted so I have edited mine out because it tells of the same stuff.

Sorry for confusion.


----------



## Omatako

christian.hess said:


> that will cost you a beer jeje
> 
> 
> 
> anchors stuck in mud...4 lines from the mast tip tp all quarters...
> 
> sandbags on keel mud bottom so it wont sink and fenders on port side at what 3 or 4 degree angle so it settles fine
> 
> in all honesty the workers did this often so I was there for the last part...and the glass work and keel work...
> 
> simple really
> 
> and my fin is maybe only 4 feet long at the tip so it can be done on most any boat for sure
> 
> full moon tides helps too


This is very common in New Zealand, many bays/most marinas have what is called a "drying rack" and nobody uses halyards, they simply slightly lean the boat against the poles and make it fast.


----------



## christian.hess

yup

halyards was just a precaution...cause its mud...and tends to slip and or slide

jajaja

in any case careening is a great way to work on your boat

and this is upright careening...on full keelers you ca do it against a nice sandbank or whatever you want really...slap on some paint do other side, put on zincs, etc...


----------



## barefootnavigator

Bene505 said:


> BFN,
> 
> What brand do you use for this?
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


I think its called 7th generation, lemon scent  I'm sure anything you find at a local coop will do.


----------



## aeventyr60

We careened in the Sea of Cortez in 00. just find a nice sloping beach. Good size tide. check out the area your going to lay her over before hand. A few old Pinto bean sacks full of sand cushioned the hull. Easier then the pile mooring trick trick I think.


----------



## mitiempo

What Christian is doing is not really careening, but similar to using a tidal grid but without the beams underneath. Like this:



This is near Port Hardy, up the coast from here a few hundred miles. These grids used to be common around here but there are fewer now. The one in Victoria Harbour is gone. There used to be one at the entrance to False Creek in Vancouver, might still be there.

This is careening:



There is another way as well, using legs:



Here is a link on Sailnet explaining how to make these and use them by James Baldwin - he sailed Atom around the world. 
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance-articles/20077-giving-your-boat-some-legs.html
A friend near here has done this successfully as well.


----------



## killarney_sailor

Brent Swain said:


> Sounds like a pretty fragile mast, or rig.


Tayana 37, is that one of Bob's? The rig did not look particularly fragile. I think when the boat fell over it gave the mast a strong sideways shock that would not happen with sailing.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Thanks aeventyr60, Brian, I've thought about legs, but I think the storage factor would negate their overall usefulness. If there was an out-of-the-way place to store them, then perhaps. You'd also have to be very careful setting them up, and really be concerned about the base, especially for bigger boats. Love the tidal grids. I wonder how common they are on the east coast.


----------



## JonEisberg

MikeOReilly said:


> Thanks aeventyr60, Brian, I've thought about legs, but I think the storage factor would negate their overall usefulness. If there was an out-of-the-way place to store them, then perhaps. You'd also have to be very careful setting them up, and really be concerned about the base, especially for bigger boats. *Love the tidal grids. I wonder how common they are on the east coast.*


Not very, in my observation... I have never noticed a single public tidal grid anywhere along the East coast of the US...

Along the ICW at Isle of Palms/Goat Island just north of Charleston, there's a resident that keeps a full-keeler in a slip where he's hard aground at low tide (probably at anything less than a full moon/storm high tide as well, by the looks of it) He's got his own version of a tidal grid that seems to keep the boat stable, but again - I can't ever recall seeing a tidal grid anywhere between Maine and Florida, and would be interested to hear if anyone knows of one...


----------



## christian.hess

aeventyr60 said:


> We careened in the Sea of Cortez in 00. just find a nice sloping beach. Good size tide. check out the area your going to lay her over before hand. A few old Pinto bean sacks full of sand cushioned the hull. Easier then the pile mooring trick trick I think.


this is how this yard hauls out...instead of using a track which is hard to isntall there...

his system was his tried and trued method and kept the boat uproght as we needed it to be for some work

careening or beaching on sand and beaches is a whole nother shebang and much more appropriate for full keelers and quick fixes like fixing a leaking through hull or shaft log etc...

doing it the upright way on pilings we had the boat out for 4 days...only needing to tweak the lines here and there a bit.

cheers


----------



## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> Thanks aeventyr60, Brian, I've thought about legs, but I think the storage factor would negate their overall usefulness. If there was an out-of-the-way place to store them, then perhaps. You'd also have to be very careful setting them up, and really be concerned about the base, especially for bigger boats. Love the tidal grids. I wonder how common they are on the east coast.


when I was shopping for a triton I already had baldwidns design legs all figued out...I found a folkboat instead and planned on using them but never did get out on that boat

like mitiempo said my haulout is in fact like the grid system used up north...instead of a grid we had sandbags...jajaja

I use the term beaching instead of careening nowadays as beaching implies lying on a beach whereas careening can be used to espress either the grid system, tying off to a dock or wall like they do in many places of france, england etc...or even lying on a sand bank or whatever


----------



## christian.hess

killarney_sailor said:


> Tayana 37, is that one of Bob's? The rig did not look particularly fragile. I think when the boat fell over it gave the mast a strong sideways shock that would not happen with sailing.


tayana 37 are strong boats...

what can happen is if ANY part of the rigging hits something hard and unginving first yes of course the mast can snap

I too do think that sideways shock shouldnt be enough to snap a mast simply cause of sidways motions imagine a roll over...boats should be able to survive rollo overs partially or complete...or modified to support this.

what can happen anyway is either the hull breaks, chainplates break or too much pressure is exerted on "windward" shrouds, they snap and hence the mast snaps off...but not mast first then the other way around...

would be interesting to know what really happened with more info

but like many things anything is possible


----------



## MikeOReilly

I appreciate the different approaches; legs vs grids, vs just finding a good place to lean, vs careening. As with all things frugal, you go with what's available. 

In the case of actual careening (laying down on a beach), it seems to me a critical point would be just as the hull is barely floating. Rarely would you find a dead calm beach, so is it a challenge to ensure the hull lays down smoothly? Or does the keel (which is already on the ground) keep the boat from sloshing around.

With regard to grids, anyone know if they exist in the Canadian Maritimes? Given the massive tides in some areas (Fundy for example), you'd think this would still be a well-used tool.


----------



## killarney_sailor

From what the guy said about the Tayana, the mast and rigging did not touch anything and after the mast was broken the shrouds were still attached and not damaged. It was just the shock of the boat falling sideways.


----------



## newhaul

killarney_sailor said:


> From what the guy said about the Tayana, the mast and rigging did not touch anything and after the mast was broken the shrouds were still attached and not damaged. It was just the shock of the boat falling sideways.


Possible to have had an unknown weak spot due to unknown lightening strike similar happened to my folks after 5 years owning the boat the insurance paid the claim and said that the strike appeared to have happened about ten years prior to failure


----------



## Brent Swain

I lived aboard and cruised for nearly 20 years before installing my first electrical system. I installed it to avoid breathing kerosene fumes .Until then, kerosene lamps were all I needed. In the tropics, you can use them without breathing much in the way of fumes, as lots of full time ventilation is not a problem. You don't have to stay closed up to keep warm. Greatly simplifies a boat.
You can make your own ,easily. Just solder the burners, available in hardware stores world wide, to the lid on an Adams peanut butter jar, with a hole in the middle . You can nail down a can, and tie the lamp into it.


----------



## barefootnavigator

This is the only way to do it on a budget 
http://logofthe.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/falmouth-cutter-22.jpg


----------



## Lou452

MikeOReilly said:


> I appreciate the different approaches; legs vs grids, vs just finding a good place to lean, vs careening. As with all things frugal, you go with what's available.
> 
> In the case of actual careening (laying down on a beach), it seems to me a critical point would be just as the hull is barely floating. Rarely would you find a dead calm beach, so is it a challenge to ensure the hull lays down smoothly? Or does the keel (which is already on the ground) keep the boat from sloshing around.
> 
> With regard to grids, anyone know if they exist in the Canadian Maritimes? Given the massive tides in some areas (Fundy for example), you'd think this would still be a well-used tool.


I have a question ? I have been reading about but have never done any careening. My understanding is when the tide comes back is the risky part and some boats Slosh around and then will flood down the companion way and not get up. 
How do you know what kind of boat will rise up without damage ? How do you anchor or rig for success ? 
Thanks , Lou


----------



## JonEisberg

Brent Swain said:


> I lived aboard and cruised for nearly 20 years before installing my first electrical system. I installed it to avoid breathing kerosene fumes .Until then, kerosene lamps were all I needed. In the tropics, you can use them without breathing much in the way of fumes, as lots of full time ventilation is not a problem. You don't have to stay closed up to keep warm. Greatly simplifies a boat.
> You can make your own ,easily. Just solder the burners, available in hardware stores world wide, to the lid on an Adams peanut butter jar, with a hole in the middle . You can nail down a can, and tie the lamp into it.


Sounds like a great idea... K-1 is selling for only $5.99/gallon here in NJ right now, but I'll bet kerosene is plentiful, widely available, and cheap, in places like the Eastern Caribbean these days... 

Yup, virtually every woman I've ever known, it has been a lifelong dream of hers to live and cruise aboard a small boat with no electricity...


----------



## Cruiser2B

Barefoot, Hess and others

Actual dollar figures aside, where have you guys cruised/voyaged in the last 3 or so years and stayed within your budgets( whatever they may be). I started my journey into becoming a cruiser about 3.5 yrs ago...and even in that time period the costs have seem to go up...on just about everything(food, fuel, healthcare, boat maintenance item).

There is a good video on cost by Vega1860, sailnet cruiser, here:






While they don't list actual dollars they do give a good monthly average. They also list places they have been and how the cost varied. I have been following them for 3 or 4 years now.

One important thing, which is key, is that they(vega1860) stated several times one persons cost will not be what you spend...basically no 2 cruisers budgets would be that same....that makes sense.

So if you guys could provide a list of ports of call that would give me an idea of where cruising can still be done on the lower end of budgets. I am particularly interest in Barefoots input on last 3-5 years in pacific northwest as this is where I ultimately want to end up and cruise, or at least home base.

Thanks guys in advance for your input.


----------



## barefootnavigator

Right now I'm only cruising locally in the Salish Sea, two people and a dog. No engine, only dock once every three weeks to charge batteries. Girlfriend is a gourmet chef so we eat really well. I usually have 4 plus months of stores aboard and a hundred bottles of wine so all we really spend money on is fresh farm eggs and greens stuff. No health insurance but in WA Apple insurance is supposed to be really good and cheap. Marinas if you stay in one are very in expensive and most tolerate sneak aboards. I think this is an absolute gold mine for the budget cruiser.


----------



## Brent Swain

travlineasy said:


> My dear departed father had a saying that always come to mind in these matters "The only thing money can't buy is POVERTY! You can rent all the other stuff." Now, when I traveled down the ICW, $500 would have barely covered two weeks of gasoline cost. However, with favorable winds offshore and the ability to inlet hop down the coast, you COULD make it on $500 a month for food and a smattering of booze.
> 
> Good Luck,
> 
> Gary


Skip the smattering of booze ,and it gets even easier.


----------



## Brent Swain

JonEisberg said:


> Sounds like a great idea... K-1 is selling for only $5.99/gallon here in NJ right now, but I'll bet kerosene is plentiful, widely available, and cheap, in places like the Eastern Caribbean these days...
> 
> Yup, virtually every woman I've ever known, it has been a lifelong dream of hers to live and cruise aboard a small boat with no electricity...


We used to call guys with a female crew "Lucky".

We used to!

All the "Lucky "guys have long since been steered into the urban real estate market, while I have spent my life doing exactly what I wanted to do, cruising, hunting , fishing , diving ,leaving the toilet seat up and farting whenever I wanted.
The big head no longer does the thinking for the little one. Some women throw every roadblock demand they can think of in front of wanna be cruisers, to prevent them from escaping.
We used to call those guys "Lucky"

We used to!


----------



## MikeOReilly

Brent Swain said:


> We used to call guys with a female crew "Lucky".
> 
> We used to!
> 
> All the "Lucky "guys have long since been steered into the urban real estate market, while I have spent my life doing exactly what I wanted to do, cruising, hunting , fishing , diving ,leaving the toilet seat up and farting whenever I wanted.


I count myself as very lucky. I have a female partner (we are equal crew) who is fully engaged in our life adventures. She burps and farts with the best, and she's as driven to move onto our boat and get cruising as I.

She does get cranky when I leave the toilet seat up though. Maybe that's why she was so pleased with our composting head -- men have to sit too .


----------



## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> I count myself as very lucky. I have a female partner (we are equal crew) who is fully engaged in our life adventures. She burps and farts with the best, and she's as driven to move onto our boat and get cruising as I.
> 
> She does get cranky when I leave the toilet seat up though. Maybe that's why she was so pleased with our composting head -- men have to sit too .


I myself am very lucky too... my wife grew up in a 'silver spoon' household with maids, etc. and when we got married it took quite a while to bring her down to Earth... she eventually settled down and we have a great relationship despite my many assignments away from home... she loves sailing and the water (she is a Middle/High School swim coach) is a lifeguard so she's at home on any boat.

I just need to keep her away from her parents lifestyle...


----------



## newhaul

barefootnavigator said:


> Right now I'm only cruising locally in the Salish Sea, two people and a dog. No engine, only dock once every three weeks to charge batteries. Girlfriend is a gourmet chef so we eat really well. I usually have 4 plus months of stores aboard and a hundred bottles of wine so all we really spend money on is fresh farm eggs and greens stuff. No health insurance but in WA Apple insurance is supposed to be really good and cheap. Marinas if you stay in one are very in expensive and most tolerate sneak aboards. I think this is an absolute gold mine for the budget cruiser.


Www.healthcare.gov under $16,105 annual income and you qualify in Washington for free healthcare insurance even dental and meds


----------



## travlin-easy

My wife loves to sail, however, she considers sleeping on the boat, regardless how comfortable it is, as camping out. For me, living aboard is a piece of cake. I loved being rocked to sleep each night, waking up late, fishing, shrimping, pretty much being lazy as I wanted to be. It was neat, plus I was able to find work everyplace I cruised. Granted, I wasn't gonna get rich, but I managed to eek out a month's expenses in just a bit over a week of working. Not bad for an old fart. 

Unfortunately, my lungs are now shot to Hell from asbestos exposure when I was a kid in the Navy, so my singing and musical performance career will soon end. Therefore, I called in my retirement funds, had the company set up a 10-year distribution plan for me, and I'll keep working as long as I can, then switch to a life of cruising. When I can no longer work, cruising seems to be a nice option till I take the dirt nap.

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## barefootnavigator

Were all in for a good dirt nap sooner or later, go sailing my friend.


----------



## mrhoneydew

"For the truth is that I already know as much about my fate as I need to know. The day will come when I will die. So the only matter of consequence before me is what I will do with my allotted time. I can remain on shore paralyzed with fear. Or I can raise my sails and dip and soar in the breeze." - Richard Bode


----------



## Bene505

Nobody mentioned cooking over wood yet. I'd think that a good BBQ that can burn wood would make for some inexpensive cooking. Plus gathering wood can be a fun shoreside excursion. 

Add an axe for chopping wood into small enough peices.

Add to that a grill for cooking over beach fires. We also have numerous flints and steel. $3 each and they can get completely wet and still work. That's not true of matches or lighters -- once they get wet they are useless.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## MikeOReilly

Bene505 said:


> Nobody mentioned cooking over wood yet. I'd think that a good BBQ that can burn wood would make for some inexpensive cooking. Plus gathering wood can be a fun shoreside excursion.


I know many people use wood for onboard heating, but I've not heard of anyone trying to cook with it on a small boat. I can certainly see going ashore and cooking over a fire, but I'd think you'd have to have a fairly large BBQ to sustain a cooking fire on board, no?

BTW, I use to carry an axe on my wilderness canoe trips, but quickly learned that a folding saw is far more effective and versatile (lighter and smaller as well). Not as good for dealing with bears though .


----------



## christian.hess

my last boat an islander 34 I bought in halfmoon bay...it was COLD

had a wonderful wood burning stove(Ill get a pic soon)

had some wonderful local wood in one locker it was full of wood when I bought the boat...a nice flint or whatever you call it fire starter that made a quick job if it etc...

it was awesome

now COOKING with wood on a boat underway is impossible, well not impossible but utterly impractical as it can get easy to get wet, it takes a while to start and you do need open space since its not contained like so on a heater

I have cooked with a solar cooker before, propane and alcohol...of the 3 propane wins all the time unless you only cook once a week when on the boat in a marina per se.

I like alcohol stoves for small type cooking times, kerosene is great gimballed for a solo sailor and honestly propane is the bees knees in simplicity...down here its used for evetything

for cooking on the beach any wood works great...we use a little grill that you can simply prop up on some rocks or stones and thats your grill...I do bbqs the same way, argentinian style...

hopefully soon well be doing some beach fires and enjoying some cooking at the same time

well see


----------



## MikeOReilly

travlineasy said:


> My wife loves to sail, however, she considers sleeping on the boat, regardless how comfortable it is, as camping out. For me, living aboard is a piece of cake. I loved being rocked to sleep each night, waking up late, fishing, shrimping, pretty much being lazy as I wanted to be. It was neat, plus I was able to find work everyplace I cruised. Granted, I wasn't gonna get rich, but I managed to eek out a month's expenses in just a bit over a week of working. Not bad for an old fart.


You're my inspiration Gary. Hope you're still singing when we get down your way. Love to join you in song someday.

BTW, I absolutely love sleeping on our boat. After a month on the boat I find it really hard to go back to sleeping ashore.


----------



## tdw

Cabin gets hot enough cooking on a gas stove. The idea of using wood or even diesel for cooking in hot climates doesn't bear thinking about. 

I gues I can vaguely see that a solid fuel BBQ would be nice to have but I doubt I'd want two of the things hanging off the rail and I'd certainly not go solid fuel only.

To have a simple grill and the capability to chop up wood for a beach campfire ? Now that has serious appeal. Flint and Steel good idea.


----------



## Bene505

This is what we use.










Fold a piece of paper in half then open it back up, to create a little bend/channel in the bottom.

Scrape a little pile of magnesium shavings onto a piece of paper, right in that channel.

Hit it with sparks and away you go. The shavings catch easily.

You get maybe 100 fires from one $2.99 tool.

Regards,
Brad


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## GreenNonic

i have not thought about living on board a boat, i am still deciding if i like sailing but right now i live for less then 500 a month on land, so i assume being in a boat would be no different, but better in some ways such as mobility , i have to do everything i need to do in town on the same day to cut the cost of fuel down (i live 15 miles from town) but technically i don't think i could manage this arrangement if i didn't have land, we grow and can a lot of food, it saves thousands of dollars, but would be totally pointless on a boat, since you cant really grow 120 lbs of your own potatoes on the sea, you can do it , i guess but you have to step back and ask at what point do you stop "living" and start to just survive or exists. i would be happy, i enjoy living simply i hate large groups of people, i have no friends, and I'm not close to my family reading this post, i would be perfectly happy to live on a boat.


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## Brent Swain

Bene505 said:


> Nobody mentioned cooking over wood yet. I'd think that a good BBQ that can burn wood would make for some inexpensive cooking. Plus gathering wood can be a fun shoreside excursion.
> 
> Add an axe for chopping wood into small enough peices.
> 
> Add to that a grill for cooking over beach fires. We also have numerous flints and steel. $3 each and they can get completely wet and still work. That's not true of matches or lighters -- once they get wet they are useless.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


Winston told me a good trick with matches. He said that, when going camping, he would cast his wooden matches in a solid block of wax, and dig one out, when needed. You could go swimming with them in your pocket, and they would still light when you climbed out. You have to point them up when lighting, so the wax dripping down them doesn't put them out.


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## Brent Swain

MikeOReilly said:


> I know many people use wood for onboard heating, but I've not heard of anyone trying to cook with it on a small boat. I can certainly see going ashore and cooking over a fire, but I'd think you'd have to have a fairly large BBQ to sustain a cooking fire on board, no?
> 
> BTW, I use to carry an axe on my wilderness canoe trips, but quickly learned that a folding saw is far more effective and versatile (lighter and smaller as well). Not as good for dealing with bears though .


I do a bit of cooking on my wood heating stove, in winter. . Makes good bannock.


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## barefootnavigator

I don't know where this fits in but Fritos are my number one toxic treat, still only three ingredients, corn, salt, oil. Ounce for ounce they have more calories than any other food? The salt is great after a long day in the sun and the scoops, each one will burn for several minutes, making them a great fire starter. At 2 bucks a bag I always have a dozen bags. We almost froze to death at a friends off grid wilderness cabin deep in the heart of winter but one Frito made fire out of a pile of dense wet wood and saved us all.


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## MikeOReilly

Brent Swain said:


> I do a bit of cooking on my wood heating stove, in winter. . Makes good bannock.


If I was planning to stay in the northern Great Lakes, or probably the PNW, I'd definitely be installing something like this:










Great heat source, and you could definitely cook on it. I just don't think it would be very practical in most southerly cruising areas where we're headed. We now have a propane stove/oven on our boat. It's hard to compete with the efficiency, cost, and ease of use.


----------



## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> If I was planning to stay in the northern Great Lakes, or probably the PNW, I'd definitely be installing something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great heat source, and you could definitely cook on it. I just don't think it would be very practical in most southerly cruising areas where we're headed. We now have a propane stove/oven on our boat. It's hard to compete with the efficiency, cost, and ease of use.


We have one of these similar cast iron stoves we use in the backyard in the pergola and we sit around it on cool nights when we have friends over or my wife and I want a cozy night together... heats very well and the top comes off if we want the flames... normally we don't do that as it warms everything around a 5-6 foot radius of the unit but they don't last very long in exposed outside areas due to rust but beats the sheet metal type heaters as they won't retain the heat.

By the way Mike... I see that 'Made in Canada' photo op...


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## MikeOReilly

guitarguy56 said:


> By the way Mike... I see that 'Made in Canada' photo op...


You caught me .


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## GreenNonic

i am a little surprised that more cruising sailors do not use canned food on their voyages . me and my wife currently live on a 25 acre property we have a large garden, and we can everything when meat goes on sale we buy 40 lbs at a time, and then can it right up, you can pre-can entire meals in jars if you wanted to, and then would not need the extra energy to run a freezer, or refrigerator, i have not put much thought to sailing open ocean on long voyages, but i suspect we would be well off in the food department , fresh jam/jelly, beets, green beans, pork, chicken, fish, tomatoes (and various sauces you can make with them) pickles, green peppers, jalapeno peppers(also a wonderful jalapeno jelly) if your very good at canning you can milk too (it doesn't taste like milk though it's cooked milk) and none of it will go bad during your voyage regardless of temperature, or duration of the trip, and it just taste so good, and is healthy for you, lol it's win/win aside from the 1 quart jars taking up space and even then, you could when the ice box runs out of ice, stick the jars in it, the bottom line is, all that food would be almost free (for us totally free besides the caned meat) which would give you a larger fuel budget, or whatever you wanted to spend the extra money on. i think you'd have to use a different can lid material i am not sure how they would stand up to salty air.


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## Group9

GreenNonic said:


> i am a little surprised that more cruising sailors do not use canned food on their voyages . me and my wife currently live on a 25 acre property we have a large garden, and we can everything when meat goes on sale we buy 40 lbs at a time, and then can it right up, you can pre-can entire meals in jars if you wanted to, and then would not need the extra energy to run a freezer, or refrigerator, i have not put much thought to sailing open ocean on long voyages, but i suspect we would be well off in the food department , fresh jam/jelly, beets, green beans, pork, chicken, fish, tomatoes (and various sauces you can make with them) pickles, green peppers, jalapeno peppers(also a wonderful jalapeno jelly) if your very good at canning you can milk too (it doesn't taste like milk though it's cooked milk) and none of it will go bad during your voyage regardless of temperature, or duration of the trip, and it just taste so good, and is healthy for you, lol it's win/win aside from the 1 quart jars taking up space and even then, you could when the ice box runs out of ice, stick the jars in it, the bottom line is, all that food would be almost free (for us totally free besides the caned meat) which would give you a larger fuel budget, or whatever you wanted to spend the extra money on. i think you'd have to use a different can lid material i am not sure how they would stand up to salty air.


I grew up on a farm and we canned everything.

But, now, what, we did on our last cruise was just buy it that way. We had so many cans of food aboard, I bet I dropped the water line by a few inches. Especially a lot of canned vegetables. I know they are not as good, or as good for you, as fresh. But, it was sure nice to be able to pop open a can and have some turnip greens whenever I felt like it (born and bred in the south).

And, it's cheap, too. The two or three months before we left, we were scouring grocery stores, Sam's, etc., and scarfing up good deals whenever we saw them. One of our favorites, though was the canned hot tamales from Hormel. I love those things, especially with a little lime juice squeezed on them.


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## mrhoneydew

I really like the idea of home canning, but I'm just a little nervous about having so much glass aboard. Anyone else? Sure you can stow it securely, but at some point you have to bring it out to consume it and that increases the risk of breakage. Broken glass on a boat is bad news. Are there any alternatives to glass? Can anything be done to the jar to contain it if it does break? I'm thinking something like dipping it in clear silicone, or wrapping the whole thing in Saran Wrap (as much as I can't stand excessive use of disposable plastics)...


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## guitarguy56

mrhoneydew said:


> I really like the idea of home canning, but I'm just a little nervous about having so much glass aboard. Anyone else? Sure you can stow it securely, but at some point you have to bring it out to consume it and that increases the risk of breakage. Broken glass on a boat is bad news. Are there any alternatives to glass? Can anything be done to the jar to contain it if it does break? I'm thinking something like dipping it in clear silicone, or wrapping the whole thing in Saran Wrap (as much as I can't stand excessive use of disposable plastics)...


My wife cans a lot of fruits and vegies we grow out back into mason jars... to protect from spoilage or rusting she dips the top of the jars in neutral beeswax and allows to cool... it forms a waterproof sealant and as long as it's protected from high heat areas the wax stays on forever. Regarding the breakage of the jars I imagine you could get these jar sleeves (foam injected) of the appropriate size to prevent hitting each other similar to the pic below:










As mentioned it's nice to open up a jar of fresh figs, blueberries, guava, or other preserves and vegies any time of the year.


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## killarney_sailor

mrhoneydew said:


> I really like the idea of home canning, but I'm just a little nervous about having so much glass aboard. Anyone else? Sure you can stow it securely, but at some point you have to bring it out to consume it and that increases the risk of breakage. Broken glass on a boat is bad news. Are there any alternatives to glass? Can anything be done to the jar to contain it if it does break? I'm thinking something like dipping it in clear silicone, or wrapping the whole thing in Saran Wrap (as much as I can't stand excessive use of disposable plastics)...


In 30K miles we have not had a single glass breakage, wine/liquour bottles, spaghettis sauce, that sort of thing. The bottles clinking together can be annoying when you come off watch and you want to sleep so it is nice to provide some separation. Liquor stores in Ontario put a mesh sleeve around bottles when you buy more than one. Thy were useful but sometimes all you needed was to have a shelf jammed enough that there was no movement.


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## bigdogandy

Would the empty glass jars have any trade / barter value in the Bahamas or Caribbean?


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## MikeOReilly

We do stock up in canned food when we head off for long trips. I've never tried canning anything, I guess b/c my food storage choice is drying, but I should give it a try. 

We do try and avoid glass whenever we can, but KS says, as long as you're moderately careful, it's not hard to avoid breakage. We've never broken any jars or (shudder) wine bottles. We keep them tightly packed, with softer material between larger glass jars. Those LCBO mesh sleeves are great, but I think they've stopped giving them out ... at least I haven't seen one in a while.


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## killarney_sailor

bigdogandy said:


> Would the empty glass jars have any trade / barter value in the Bahamas or Caribbean?


can't imagine that they would.


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## Don L

I like frozen vegetables a lot better than canned ones. Plus I like to buy things like chicken in bulk when they are on sale and put them in vacuum packed bags and freeze them as they last a lot longer.

One of the reasons I believe that having a freezer/refrigeration is a cost saver in the long run!


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## Bene505

mrhoneydew said:


> I really like the idea of home canning, but I'm just a little nervous about having so much glass aboard. Anyone else? Sure you can stow it securely, but at some point you have to bring it out to consume it and that increases the risk of breakage. Broken glass on a boat is bad news. Are there any alternatives to glass? Can anything be done to the jar to contain it if it does break? I'm thinking something like dipping it in clear silicone, or wrapping the whole thing in Saran Wrap (as much as I can't stand excessive use of disposable plastics)...


Fear of broken glass stops when you have a vacuum aboard. You can get an inverter (very useful for many other things) and then get a mini shop vac at Home Depot. Just like at home, when glass breaks pick up the big pieces and thoroughly vacuum the entire area and beyond.

I'm getting rid of our plastic glasses and going all glass. For one thing, the plastic makes a glass of Amaretto taste horrible, like it's leaching chemicals into the alcohol.

And we now keep a couple frosted beer glasses in the freezer. If you don't believe me, come by and we'll test them out.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## MikeOReilly

I am currently buying in bulk (as food comes on sale), then drying and vacuum bagging for long-term storage. I can store huge volumes of food in a very small space, and it will last for years if properly sealed. I see our fridge/freezer as a useful tool, but more for short/medium term storage of food (meat, leftovers, excess caught fish, beer!). 

As has been discussed, most fresh veggies and fruits don't require refrigeration. And for bulk buying, you'd need a very large fridge to store any serious volumes of veg or fruit. As a comparison, I just dried approx. two dozen fresh tomatoes. Fresh, they occupied the size of standard grocery bag. All dried and sealed, they are now the size of a can of beans. Best of all, they'll last for years if need be, will retain most of their nutritional value, and will taste nearly as good as fresh.


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## smurphny

Canned stuff lasts an incredibly long time...YEARS, as long as you keep the cans from rusting. I just finished some canned tuna and pineapple that I bought at least three years ago...still perfectly good.
$500/mo. is dreaming. One moderate mechanical, electronic, or rigging setback can blow that idea in a couple of seconds. Just simple maintenance will take a large bite out of that amount. Insurance? Fuel? Tow service? Once you have a well found boat to start with, maybe it could be done for $1000 or so if you don't mind rice, beans, and oatmeal all the time and never pay for dockage or moorings (where you can take a shower occasionally). That doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun. What are you going to do if the engine has a major episode needing replacement to the tune of 10Gs? A line item in any budget has to be enough to cover the worst contingency.


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## travlin-easy

Smurf, never had a can rust out on the boat - ever. I had a can of Ravioli that was inadvertently shoved into the back of the bar, behind all the booze bottles. It was there for two years and not a speck of rust.

Gary


----------



## manatee

barefootnavigator said:


> I don't know where this fits in but Fritos are my number one toxic treat, still only three ingredients, corn, salt, oil. Ounce for ounce they have more calories than any other food? The salt is great after a long day in the sun and the scoops, each one will burn for several minutes, making them a great fire starter. At 2 bucks a bag I always have a dozen bags. We almost froze to death at a friends off grid wilderness cabin deep in the heart of winter but one Frito made fire out of a pile of dense wet wood and saved us all.


Even wet wood is usually dry on the inside. Driftwood can make a colorful fire -- the salts & sands create interesting effects.

Steel-wool pads hold a hot spark quite a while; don't use the soapy ones, they stink. Finer grade wool is better.

The inside hairy part of a coconut husk makes great tinder when you fluff it out; split coconut husks make for a really hot fire. The dry ribs of palm fronds are also good fire making stuff.

* NEVER PUT A WHOLE COCONUT IN A FIRE. IT WILL EXPLODE. *

Rather than a saw or axe/hatchet, I prefer a bolo, like these:










I got mine as a thank-you from one of my wheelchair-repair customers many years ago. It was made from a truck spring in WW II, with water-buffalo-horn handle & buffalo-hide sheath. It's a thick, full-tang blade, holds an edge like nothing I've ever seen, and can go through just about anything. It's my go-to knife for yard work, hurricane cleanup & bbq firewood. It's great for cleaning coconuts, whether fixing a green nut for drinking the water, husking ripe nuts to get at the meat, or splitting old dried nuts for fire.


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## aeventyr60

Lou452 said:


> I have a question ? I have been reading about but have never done any careening. My understanding is when the tide comes back is the risky part and some boats Slosh around and then will flood down the companion way and not get up.
> How do you know what kind of boat will rise up without damage ? How do you anchor or rig for success ?
> Thanks , Lou


Fore and aft anchor, get the boat to lie parallel to he beach as the tide recedes. halyard to lee on a small anchor to get the lean started. Boat leans over very slowly as the tide goes out, position sand bags to cushion the hull. Before the tide comes back in, walk out the fore anchor to seward, take up some tension, as the tide comes in keep pulling in on the rode. She'll straighten right up as the tide rises. We worried about the flooding as well, so put in the bin boards and closed her up tight. not a drop of water on deck....


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## aeventyr60

bigdogandy said:


> Would the empty glass jars have any trade / barter value in the Bahamas or Caribbean?


Mason jars for the bar to serve beer in?


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## MikeOReilly

manatee said:


> Steel-wool pads hold a hot spark quite a while; don't use the soapy ones, they stink. Finer grade wool is better.
> 
> The inside hairy part of a coconut husk makes great tinder when you fluff it out; split coconut husks make for a really hot fire. The dry ribs of palm fronds are also good fire making stuff.
> 
> Rather than a saw or axe/hatchet, I prefer a bolo, like these:


Steel wool is great. Up here, dry moss and birchbark is the thing. I look forward to trying the coconut husks (no coconuts anywhere near here). BTW, I love your blades. A versatile tool, no doubt. Even good for the bears . But for managing cooking wood (i.e. small pieces), it's hard to beat a light, strong folding saw like this one.


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## manatee

MikeOReilly said:


> Steel wool is great. Up here, dry moss and birchbark is the thing. I look forward to trying the coconut husks (no coconuts anywhere near here). BTW, I love your blades. A versatile tool, no doubt. Even good for the bears . But for managing cooking wood (i.e. small pieces), it's hard to beat a light, strong folding saw like this one.


Different ships, different long splices. I'm so used to the bolo, the only saw I use is a pole saw for stuff I can't reach from the ground, and once it's on the ground I bolo it to bits. It's just faster & easier -- while you're pulling a dozen strokes on one branch, I've lopped 3 or 4 branches in half. I'm lazy, so boloing wins over sawing for me. The chips also make good tinder, or mulch. 

I found these videos when I was looking for bolo photos -- this guy's a riot. What he does to the coconut I call 'beavering' -- a bunch of little tentative nibbles, instead of a few well-placed healthy chops. There's also a video showing the making of bolos.


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## GreenNonic

well, i have no idea if you could barter or trade the jars, but typically caners reuse them, since they can be expensive to replace, my family has been reusing the same jars for 80 or 90 years , re replace when necessary (chipped rims wont hold a seal anymore so best not to try them or the food will spoil and get wasted) so the cost is low for us to can, starting out canning for the first time can cost a lot, the cost of a pressure cooker, and cans and lids can fun a few hundreds or dollars , but after that you just buy new lids (there isa rubber seal top and then the twist down part you can reuse the twist on part lots of times, but have to use new sealer tops every time, because the rubber wont seal twice) so the idea is to open then, eat the food inside store them, take them home clean them, then put new food in them, seal them, and re-can them, and take them on the next voyage, basically forever, until they get damaged or nicks in the rim and then you replace the jar, but if your a little bit careful with them they last forever, like ours are soooo old, we still have zinc metal and glass lids with wax seals from the 1900's, lol (we choose not to use them since they are so awesome we just shelf them cuz they are pretty  broken glass would suck on a boat, but the glass is prolly as strong as it needs to be as long as it's stored properly i think generally it would be okay, if you wanted you could prolly use duct tape chris cross around the jar, and then two wraps around top and bottom, and it would contain nearly all the glass they tend to break into large pieces anyhow, I've dropped them on hard wood floors and they didn't break, i am not sure if them being older makes them better or worse , i suspect standards are not the same now days as they were back in the early 1930's. i guess it would hard for regular people to just have access to acres of farm able land to grow there own food to go on voyages, i think i might have taken that for granted when i made my original post , for me i would grow all my foods and can them during spring and summer, and then sail during the cold winters someplace warmer, lol but obviously i am lucky to have acess to this land, even though it's not mine, my in laws let me do whatever since we give them a third of the food we grow anyways


----------



## bljones

GreenNonic said:


> well, i have no idea if you could barter or trade the jars, but typically caners reuse them, since they can be expensive to replace, my family has been reusing the same jars for 80 or 90 years , re replace when necessary (chipped rims wont hold a seal anymore so best not to try them or the food will spoil and get wasted) so the cost is low for us to can, starting out canning for the first time can cost a lot, the cost of a pressure cooker, and cans and lids can fun a few hundreds or dollars , but after that you just buy new lids (there isa rubber seal top and then the twist down part you can reuse the twist on part lots of times, but have to use new sealer tops every time, because the rubber wont seal twice) so the idea is to open then, eat the food inside store them, take them home clean them, then put new food in them, seal them, and re-can them, and take them on the next voyage, basically forever, until they get damaged or nicks in the rim and then you replace the jar, but if your a little bit careful with them they last forever, like ours are soooo old, we still have zinc metal and glass lids with wax seals from the 1900's, lol (we choose not to use them since they are so awesome we just shelf them cuz they are pretty  broken glass would suck on a boat, but the glass is prolly as strong as it needs to be as long as it's stored properly i think generally it would be okay, if you wanted you could prolly use duct tape chris cross around the jar, and then two wraps around top and bottom, and it would contain nearly all the glass they tend to break into large pieces anyhow, I've dropped them on hard wood floors and they didn't break, i am not sure if them being older makes them better or worse , i suspect standards are not the same now days as they were back in the early 1930's. i guess it would hard for regular people to just have access to acres of farm able land to grow there own food to go on voyages, i think i might have taken that for granted when i made my original post , for me i would grow all my foods and can them during spring and summer, and then sail during the cold winters someplace warmer, lol but obviously i am lucky to have acess to this land, even though it's not mine, my in laws let me do whatever since we give them a third of the food we grow anyways


Damn, man, BREATHE!


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## Donna_F

bljones said:


> Damn, man, BREATHE!


He didn't actually put a period at the end. Maybe he passed out?

(You know we love you, Green.)


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## Brent Swain

GreenNonic said:


> well, i have no idea if you could barter or trade the jars, but typically caners reuse them, since they can be expensive to replace, my family has been reusing the same jars for 80 or 90 years , re replace when necessary (chipped rims wont hold a seal anymore so best not to try them or the food will spoil and get wasted) so the cost is low for us to can, starting out canning for the first time can cost a lot, the cost of a pressure cooker, and cans and lids can fun a few hundreds or dollars , but after that you just buy new lids (there isa rubber seal top and then the twist down part you can reuse the twist on part lots of times, but have to use new sealer tops every time, because the rubber wont seal twice) so the idea is to open then, eat the food inside store them, take them home clean them, then put new food in them, seal them, and re-can them, and take them on the next voyage, basically forever, until they get damaged or nicks in the rim and then you replace the jar, but if your a little bit careful with them they last forever, like ours are soooo old, we still have zinc metal and glass lids with wax seals from the 1900's, lol (we choose not to use them since they are so awesome we just shelf them cuz they are pretty  broken glass would suck on a boat, but the glass is prolly as strong as it needs to be as long as it's stored properly i think generally it would be okay, if you wanted you could prolly use duct tape chris cross around the jar, and then two wraps around top and bottom, and it would contain nearly all the glass they tend to break into large pieces anyhow, I've dropped them on hard wood floors and they didn't break, i am not sure if them being older makes them better or worse , i suspect standards are not the same now days as they were back in the early 1930's. i guess it would hard for regular people to just have access to acres of farm able land to grow there own food to go on voyages, i think i might have taken that for granted when i made my original post , for me i would grow all my foods and can them during spring and summer, and then sail during the cold winters someplace warmer, lol but obviously i am lucky to have acess to this land, even though it's not mine, my in laws let me do whatever since we give them a third of the food we grow anyways


Friends have told me they have used some of the lids 5 times with no problem. They just boil the lids to make the rubber recover somewhat. As long as it holds a vacuum, there is no problem.
You have to put the jars somewhere, so putting them in the canner means the caner takes up not much more space than the jars alone would . So don't skimp on canner size.
Going hunting is a good way to get excellent meat for your canning.

( Bang! Congratulations Bucky! You have just won a free trip to the South Pacific!)


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## Brent Swain

smurphny said:


> Canned stuff lasts an incredibly long time...YEARS, as long as you keep the cans from rusting. I just finished some canned tuna and pineapple that I bought at least three years ago...still perfectly good.
> $500/mo. is dreaming. One moderate mechanical, electronic, or rigging setback can blow that idea in a couple of seconds. Just simple maintenance will take a large bite out of that amount. Insurance? Fuel? Tow service? Once you have a well found boat to start with, maybe it could be done for $1000 or so if you don't mind rice, beans, and oatmeal all the time and never pay for dockage or moorings (where you can take a shower occasionally). That doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun. What are you going to do if the engine has a major episode needing replacement to the tune of 10Gs? A line item in any budget has to be enough to cover the worst contingency.


I have been living the impossible dream for over 40 years, no problem. For the first 18 years I didn't have an electrical system , so there was no chance of that blowing my budget. It cost me less to replace my first boat than insurance would have cost me. I have never had insurance while cruising, so no chance of that blowing my budget. If I won the lottery I still wouldn't pay to tie up to a dock and have some control freak hand a me a list of things I could or couldn't do on my own boat. Having to suck up to a control freak, sanctimonius marina operator doesn't sound like near as much fun as being free to do what you please on your own boat. I don't tie to docks, so no chance of that blowing my budget. I never use a tow service, so no chance of that blowing my budget. I just sail her right, so don't need a tow. 
A solar shower works well in summer, along with several daily swims. In winter, I use a 3 1/2 gallon stainless pressure can, which I put on the wood stove, and heat until a comfortable temperature is reached. Then I pressurise it with a tire pump, and have my shower. In many ports here , there are public swimming pools with showers, dry and wet saunas, hot tubs, weight rooms and Olympic swimming pools, for around $6, $2 on some nights , far cheaper than moorage .
I keep my mechanical stuff as simple as possible, and build a lot of my own gear, in the cockpit ,so don't have much in the way of mechanical expenses or breakdowns. I have bought enough rigging wire to rig a 36 footer for $24. My turnbuckles cost around $17 each. My sheet blocks around $2 each, for materials. Used sails have never cost me more than $350 for a main or genoa. Not much chance of rigging breaking my budget. No , we resourceful cruisers are not so dense that we have to hire others to do our work for us, as you imply.
I dine on the finest Venison , cod, oysters, flounder, etc., all free, which would cost useless urban consumers a fortune. I heat with the huge piles of firewood lining our shores free for the taking. I don't pay others to put my food in cans ( along with who knows what else) . It is far healthier than the corporate ,intrafacial chemo therapy, food like substances which you imply us resourceful cruisers are dense enough to waste our cruising funds, and health on. Bulk food is incredibly cheap, and far healthier than processed, food like substances..
When I have mechanical work to do, I do it myself. I make a point of not being so useless that I have to hire others to do such "Adult day care" work for me. Your list of expenses imply that all cruisers are useless and incapable of being self reliant , resourceful and imaginative. Nothing could possibly be further from the truth! 
Speak for yourself!


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## MikeOReilly

Back to canning, has anyone used canning as a means of reducing your food expenditures while cruising? Just as I'm planning to buy in bulk when prices are cheap (when things come in season), and dehydrate the excess, does anyone do the same with canning while underway?

I've never canned before, but I'm thinking I should learn.


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## Brent Swain

Canning has greatly reduced my food costs underway. A brief hunting expedition has often given me a winters supply of meat. I have canned a lot of fish underway as well. New Zealand has realized that they don't have a big enough human population to control such tasty invasive species as deer ,elk. wild pigs , goats etc. etc., so they have thrown it wide open to cruisers who are a good shot with a bow to fill their jars to capacity . Relatively cheap meat is also available in the Marquesas, and other places, as long as you are capable of canning it.


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## Omatako

killarney_sailor said:


> Liquor stores in Ontario put a mesh sleeve around bottles when you buy more than one. They were useful but sometimes all you needed was to have a shelf jammed enough that there was no movement.


Never throw out worn-out socks. Bottles on the boat love them.


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## smurphny

I can stuff from the garden but not specifically for the boat. I'm not sure it makes a whole lot of sense to buy market food and can it yourself. Buying canned goods to keep on the boat is inexpensive to begin with and the metal cans are disposable, unlike Mason Jars which you have to stow somewhere and hope they don't break. 

Brent, I do ALL my own work, weld all my own rigging parts, even make my own blocks, poles, and stupidly expensive "marine" parts, I also do all my own sailmaking and canvas work but when the radar or chartplotter or SSB craps out or the 3GM eats a piston, there better be funds to fix/replace stuff while in east bum#uck somewhere. Being self-sufficient ends when you need Moolah for major work. It's not a case of IF something major will break but WHEN. Going without liability insurance in this day and age is simply irresponsible. Going without tow insurance is a good way to spend $1000 bucks in the blink of an eye. There are expenses to be a responsible mariner and they WILL add up to a he** of a lot more than 500 bucks/mo. over time.


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## Brent Swain

So why, in over 40 years of mostly full time cruising, have I never incurred any of those expenses, nor have most of the cruisers I know?
The only insurance claim I ever made ( heath travel insurance) they simply refused to pay( Travel Underwriters, Worldwide Mediclaim) giving me little reason to believe they ever would. I don't consider it in any way "immoral "to not give my cruising funds, and thus my freedom ,to such scam artists
I did three years in my last boat without an engine, including a trip to Tahiti and back, and have only on my last trip, ever had a ham radio. I could easily continue without them ( as Slocum did)
What you consider necessities, could be considered luxuries by many, who could get along just fine without them.


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## MikeOReilly

smurphny said:


> Brent, I do ALL my own work, weld all my own rigging parts, even make my own blocks, poles, and stupidly expensive "marine" parts, I also do all my own sailmaking and canvas work but when the radar or chartplotter or SSB craps out or the 3GM eats a piston, there better be funds to fix/replace stuff while in east bum#uck somewhere. Being self-sufficient ends when you need Moolah for major work.


Please don't fixate on the $500 number smurphny. The point of this discussion is to explore ideas that further a frugal cruising lifestyle (however one wants to define cruising). Having a contingency fund (self-insurance) is part of that.

There's any number of reasons why frugal living is difficult, and quite likely impossible for most. That's not the point of this thread.

I, for one, would like to hear more about your experience with canning, and with making your own rigging parts. Brent is our resident expert when it comes to metal fabrication. I'd love to learn more from both of you. Buying canned food is clearly part of having a well-stocked boat, but I keep hearing the mantra that says to shop where the locals shop.


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## smurphny

Canning stuff like tomatoes and veggies with an inexpensive hot water canner is easy and safe. When you get into canning meat, a pressure canner is necessary to avoid poisoning yourself. I only have a hot water canner and have not tried pressure canning yet. Canning fish like tuna, chicken, and beef would certainly be useful for the boat. I have a booklet from Ball Ball Blue Book Guide to Preserving: Altrista Consumr Products: 0797190001428: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%[email protected]@[email protected]@51%2BaHwIMUML which has all the info. needed.


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## Minnesail

I am interested in canning, but haven't gotten started. In my research I've found that our local university has some great info on canning. Not based on family histories of what won't kill you (probably) but actual research into the temperatures and times needed to can safely.

Canning : Food Safety : Food : University of Minnesota Extension


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## travlin-easy

You folks seem to have a fixation on do-it-yourself food storage. I look at it a bit differently. There seemed to have been some pretty smart folks at Dinty Moore, Campbells, Chef Boyarde, and others that put a lot of time and effort into making a fairly palatable product and putting it in a can. Same goes for tuna, shrimp, sardines, etc... Then, another bunch of food folks came along and created Healthy Choice, and a dozen other outfits, folks that knew how to put some pretty darned good dinners in a relatively small package and freeze them. And, they're really inexpensive. Most of the canned stuff goes for under $1 a can when on sale at the local grocery market, and the same goes for the frozen dinners. My tiny, little freezer compartment on the boat holds just over a dozen of the frozen dinners, and I figure I can store all the stews, ravioli, lasagna, canned tuna, canned shrimp, even Spam I need for six months at sea in my above the stove cabinets. Plus, I still have enough room to make ice cubes in the freezer compartment after stowing the frozen dinners, so I can keep the Margarettas flowing. I have a special spot in the fridge for beer and I usually store a dozen cans of Coors Light in there (old guys enjoy Coors Light - less bloating!).

Ritz Crackers, chips and bread are all stored in a Tupperware Box beneath the map table. English muffins (I love em) usually get refrigerated to keep em fresh. I try to find the cornbread English muffins, but they're only available in the sunny south at the Wynn Dixie.

I usually keep a couple big Vidalia onions in the fridge, but I keep the spuds stored in a mid-size Tupperware box beneath the map table. They keep for quite a while if I wrap them in a paper towel. 

Cheeses go in the fridge as well, and they usually are kept in the same section with the beer. I also keep a 32 can case of beer stowed beneath one of the seats - can't have too much beer onboard - ya never know when company might show up. I used to keep some pretty exotic beers onboard, but they tend to drink whatever is available and cold. Cruisers are not usually picky folks.

I keep a fair stock of coconut rum, Margaretta Mix, and Melon Liquor onboard for my famous Green Coconut Margarettas. I begin to panic when I run low on any of the ingredients. I also keep a big bottle of Bacardi Oakheart onboard for the folks that have to have the heavy duty stuff. I used to keep a big bottle of Jamesons onboard, but it didn't seem to stay around for very long, and it was pretty expensive. Now, those folks get Crown Royal, which I have a good supply of from many, many New Year's Eve parties that folks left behind.

When it comes to fish, I just hang a line overboard and catch what I need. It's not really difficult when you know how, but there are some locations where I just will not consume the fish. Most of the ICW is heavily polluted, but there are lots of offshore artificial reefs that are marked on your charts and GPS/Plotters. They are listed as Fish Havens. Most groundfish species dwell there and some tasty, fresh-caught sea bass, tautog, snapper, grunt, etc... can make a gourmet dinner for cruisers that only cost them a couple squid strips and a little time over the reef. If you're lucky enough to hook and land a 10-pound tautog, you have sufficient fillets for a dozen meals. Some folks refer to tautog as poor man's lobster.

Now, I really don't want to spend a lot of time canning, jarring, boiling, and preparing food that I can buy for under $1 a can. I would much rather spend that time sitting in the helm seat with my feet propped up and a Margaretta in my hand and watching the world go by as I sail down the Atlantic Coast toward a temperature that is the same as my age (73). The temperature outside tonight is a brisk 7 degrees. Damned I hate winter in Maryland. 

Cheers,

Gary


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## smurphny

I'm with you Gary (except for the Coors. I prefer Sierra Nevada Pale Ale I do canning mostly for fun, not for the boat. For one thing I just do not have room for bottles. Just got back to the frozen Arctic here after 3 mos. in Florida on the boat. It was -20 the first night back. Got to have my head examined! From 84 to 20 below, a 100+ degree change


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## Group9

smurphny said:


> I'm with you Gary (except for the Coors. I prefer Sierra Nevada Pale Ale I do canning mostly for fun, not for the boat. For one thing I just do not have room for bottles. Just got back to the frozen Arctic here after 3 mos. in Florida on the boat. It was -20 the first night back. Got to have my head examined! From 84 to 20 below, a 100+ degree change


I agree. I spend my entire childhood and adolescence helping my mother can vegetables from our farm (that I also had to help pick), for what seemed like weeks at a time without stopping. I am over it.


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## MikeOReilly

So, do you guys find you can buy cheap canned food in all the areas you travel? From all I've read by those cruising remote areas, the cheapest foods are to be had in the fresh local markets. Is this wrong?


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## copacabana

MikeOReilly said:


> So, do you guys find you can buy cheap canned food in all the areas you travel? From all I've read by those cruising remote areas, the cheapest foods are to be had in the fresh local markets. Is this wrong?


That's been my experience. I find canned food here is expensive and the variety poor. On the other hand fresh fruits and vegetables are cheap, abundant and excellent quality. I have almost no canned food on my boat because I prefer fresh, but I can see the need for having cans for long-term cruising. After reading about your dehydrating success Mike I think I will start doing the same.


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## smurphny

MikeOReilly said:


> So, do you guys find you can buy cheap canned food in all the areas you travel? From all I've read by those cruising remote areas, the cheapest foods are to be had in the fresh local markets. Is this wrong?


My cruising is in the USA so canned goods are always available. I usually go out for 2-4 months at a time and can carry enough cans of various foods to pretty much last the entire time. That way I'm not always tied to places with supermarkets. One of my favorite things to cook up is stir-fry, using canned chicken, dried onions and spices, and canned veggies of one kind or another with brown rice. No fresh veggies needed although it's nice when I can get fresh stuff. Eggs keep for a VERY long time (in the fridge), especially if you coat them with wax or vaseline. You can easily keep 6 dozen or so on board.


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## guitarguy56

Many times my wife and I would like to eat summer fruits and vegetables we cannot buy in the winter... so she cans those items (especially the ones we grow on our property)... cans are great but too many commercially canned ingredients are not good for one's health or frozen foods for that matter... remember they need to add preservatives to maintain either the freshness or palatability of those products. My choice would be can what you can eat while voyaging till your destination and stock up there/can the items while in port... hard to get items you could stock more jars, etc. to last the entire cruise?

Toutog is good eating if you can get passed the almost human teeth...


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## killarney_sailor

MikeOReilly said:


> So, do you guys find you can buy cheap canned food in all the areas you travel? From all I've read by those cruising remote areas, the cheapest foods are to be had in the fresh local markets. Is this wrong?


We have found that we can do very well with fresh fruits and vegetables and have not needed to purchase too many cans except in places like South Africa and Australia where the shopping is pretty much like here. The _hypermarche_ in Tahiti had an incredible range of canned foods that were unfamiliar. We bought canned duck in an interesting sauce for example.

Fresh things last longer than you might think with things like squash and cabbage being totally bullet proof. June does not like canned things so we buy lots of fresh and focus on eating things that won't last too long like tomatoes and lettuce earlier on, then more into potatoes, etc and finally squash. Eggs last an incredible time. We had South African eggs still in Grenada after 5000 nm. We had one go bad. The key is that they not be refrigerated which is not a problem since they are sold that way almost everywhere in the world.


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## MikeOReilly

Always interesting to tap into the range of experiences we have here on SN. We too take a fair amount of canned foods with us on our month-long cruises, but we also take a lot of fresh. We eat through the fresh first, in part to keep it from going bad, but also b/c it just tastes better. We always come back with many bins full of canned foods, which sometimes find their way back onto the boat the following season. The canned food is used mostly as backup, or sometimes for ease-of-use. 

I certainly won't quibble with anyone who says canned food is cheaper than fresh ... I'm sure it is, depending on where you are, the time of year, the season, the climate you're in, etc. I guess context is everything (like with all these frugal cruising questions). I know it costs me less to buy fresh when things are in season, and especially if I shop the small local markets, and stay away from supermarkets. But in the middle of winter there is precious little that is local and fresh up here. 

BTW, I with KS on cabbage and squashes. They both last forever, and you can do a million things with them. Cabbage in particular is a wonderful food. Nutritious, cheap, tasty, and a great substitute for lettuce.


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## Bene505

guitarguy56 said:


> Many times my wife and I would like to eat summer fruits and vegetables we cannot buy in the winter... so she cans those items (especially the ones we grow on our property)... cans are great but too many commercially canned ingredients are not good for one's health or frozen foods for that matter... remember they need to add preservatives to maintain either the freshness or palatability of those products...


I didn't know this about frozen foods. Can you say more about that?



> Toutog is good eating if you can get passed the almost human teeth...


They are the best! And great to spearfish.

Regards,
Brad


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## guitarguy56

Bene505 said:


> I didn't know this about frozen foods. Can you say more about that?
> 
> They are the best! And great to spearfish.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


I'll save you the trouble of opening up the document as well as others, hopefully this one sums it up.



> Journal of renal nutrition : the official journal of the Council on Renal Nutrition of the National Kidney Foundation
> By: J Ren Nutr
> 
> The prevalence of phosphorus-containing food additives in top-selling foods in grocery stores.
> 
> Abstract
> 
> The objective of this study was to determine the prevalence of phosphorus-containing food additives in best-selling processed grocery products and to compare the phosphorus content of a subset of top-selling foods with and without phosphorus additives.
> The labels of 2394 best-selling branded grocery products in northeast Ohio were reviewed for phosphorus additives. The top 5 best-selling products containing phosphorus additives from each food category were matched with similar products without phosphorus additives and analyzed for phosphorus content. Four days of sample meals consisting of foods with and without phosphorus additives were created, and daily phosphorus and pricing differentials were computed.
> 
> MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES
> 
> Presence of phosphorus-containing food additives, phosphorus content.
> 
> RESULTS
> 
> Forty-four percent of the best-selling grocery items contained phosphorus additives. The additives were particularly common in prepared frozen foods (72%), dry food mixes (70%), packaged meat (65%), bread and baked goods (57%), soup (54%), and yogurt (51%) categories. Phosphorus additive-containing foods averaged 67 mg phosphorus/100 g more than matched non-additive-containing foods (P = .03). Sample meals comprised mostly of phosphorus additive-containing foods had 736 mg more phosphorus per day compared with meals consisting of only additive-free foods. Phosphorus additive-free meals cost an average of $2.00 more per day.
> 
> CONCLUSION
> 
> Phosphorus additives are common in best-selling processed groceries and contribute significantly to their phosphorus content. Moreover, phosphorus additive foods are less costly than phosphorus additive-free foods. As a result, persons with chronic kidney disease may purchase these popular low-cost groceries and unknowingly increase their intake of highly bio-available phosphorus.


The prevalence of phosphorus-containing food addi... [J Ren Nutr. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI

Anyone here hoping to tell me adding phosphorus to our foods is a healthy thing for your diet and nutrition outside of how it occurs naturally in vegetables/meats?


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## Brent Swain

One huge advantage of canning your own food is you get to know what you are eating . Most commercially processed foods are loaded with transfats, responsible for 80% of diabetes and 37% of heart disease. I can carry a years supply of bean, split peas and rice pudding in a fraction the space it takes to store the equivalent in cans. I left New Zealand with dried green beans ,a can of which was the equivalent of 32 cans in liquid form. Cruising with a years supply of food, gives one huge peace of mind, and you are not constantly looking for your next food source. It insulates your budget from high local prices.
One day of canning does a 32 pint deer ,which I get for free. Compare that to the price of supermarket food.
The time spent canning must be compared to the time spent earning the money to buy caned food and not being able to get what you want in cans. I haven' seen bacon ,nor beef , nor sausages in cans for decades , altho it used to be common.
Booze is expensive, something one would be wise to give up, if they want to cruise on a low budget. I serve guests tea. Those who would push a booze culture on me are not my friends, and are thus not welcome aboard.


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## travlin-easy

Brent, I'm glad you enjoy the canning projects, and don't like booze. That way, if you visit my boat I don't have to offer you anything other than water and beans.  Me, I'll stick with the canned foods I've been consuming for nearly three-quarters of a century with no ill effects, and the booze I've been consuming for more than a half-century with no ill effects.

Good luck,

Gary


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## smurphny

Anything dried is a tremendous space saver: Rice, Beans, Pasta, Oatmeal, Flour, Wheatena, Farina, etc. Just add water. It can even be seawater for pasta and rice. I put stuff like this in hard plastic storage containers that I've chosen for their sizes so they fit in the available spaces. You'll still get bugs in some stuff because it comes complete with them but they can be washed out or just added to the protein (just kidding). Rice seems to be the worst for developing critters. I can make good no-knead bread in a pressure cooker right on the stovetop. Sorry Brett, beer is right up there on the essentials list


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## travlin-easy

Brent, I just went through the ingredients on all the Delmonte canned vegetables that I usually stock on the boat - no mention of phosphorus on any of them. So, I decided to call their 800 number and ask, the person at the other end assured me there is no added phosphorus and that because they are vacuum sealed in the canning process, there is no need for preservatives of any kind, and they also advertise this.

Next, I checked Chef Boyarde - same thing - not listed, and not used or necessary.

Finally, I checked with Healthy Choice and the results were the same - including the results from a phone call to their 800 number - no phosphorus or preservatives used at all and not needed. The meals are cooked, then flash frozen in their respective packages.

Now, one thing I can tell you from 15 years working in cardio-pulmonary medicine, the jury is still out on trans-fats for cardiovascular disease. Additionally, so is cholesterol. In fact, the largest study ever conducted about the relationship of cardiovascular disease and cholesterol clearly concludes that there is NO correlation at all. The study, which was performed by the World Health Organization, revealed that populations with the highest cholesterol levels and highest consumption of fats, had the lowest incidence of cardiovascular disease. And, from my own experience, while working in the field at Johns Hopkins and University of Maryland Hospitals, confirmed those results. The vast majority of my patients that underwent bypass surgery had low or normal cholesterol levels.

Now, have you ever enjoyed the wonderful flavor of beer pancakes? 

PS: Just got a call back from Dinty Moore and they DO NOT use preservatives of any kind in any of their canned products. No added phosphorus - nothing. They also said it their preparation made this totally unnecessary.

Cheers,

Gary


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## MarkofSeaLife

travlineasy said:


> B
> Now, one thing I can tell you from 15 years working in cardio-pulmonary medicine, the jury is still out on trans-fats for cardiovascular disease. Additionally, so is cholesterol. In fact, the largest study ever conducted about the relationship of cardiovascular disease and cholesterol clearly concludes that there is NO correlation at all. The study, which was performed by the World Health Organization, revealed that populations with the highest cholesterol levels and highest consumption of fats, had the lowest incidence of cardiovascular disease.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


I also understand that studies on salt are beginning to alter the perception of many years.

This one may be indicating that a low salt diet may lead to increased death risk from Cardio Vascular Disease.

JAMA Network | JAMA | Fatal and Nonfatal Outcomes, Incidence of Hypertension, and Blood Pressure Changes in Relation to Urinary Sodium Excretion

It doesn't mean people can go crazy on salted peanuts and Pringles, but people on a non-processed food diet can sprinkle 'to their hearts content'.

Mark


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## travlin-easy

Mark, the only thing salt really does in relation to cardiovascular disease is exacerbate blood pressure, mainly because of the increased sodium level producing excess interstitial fluid. If you don't have a cardiovascular problem, the salt isn't going to do a thing to your blood pressure - you'll merely metabolize it.

Now, people in congestive heart failure must avoid salt like the plague. It really puts undue pressure on the right heart and pulmonary arteries, thus resulting in pulmonary hypertension. Pulmonary hypertension will kill you faster than anything I know.

Gary


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## guitarguy56

travlineasy said:


> Mark, the only thing salt really does in relation to cardiovascular disease is exacerbate blood pressure, mainly because of the increased sodium level producing excess interstitial fluid. If you don't have a cardiovascular problem, the salt isn't going to do a thing to your blood pressure - you'll merely metabolize it.
> 
> Now, people in congestive heart failure must avoid salt like the plague. It really puts undue pressure on the right heart and pulmonary arteries, thus resulting in pulmonary hypertension. Pulmonary hypertension will kill you faster than anything I know.
> 
> Gary


You just need to look at the cans/frozen foods to see the massive amounts of salts/preservatives these canneries/frozen food factories put into the foods... now they realize it and are coming up with 'low sodium' alternatives... is this after they made so many people sick and caused deaths attributed to the massive infusion of salts?

We use very little salt when we can our foods relying on cooking it properly during the processing to avoid spoilage... the canneries answer to that... add several tablespoons of salt into the can.

I avoid restaurants like the plague and only go to places I see them making the meal from scratch, I literally tell them 'no salt or msg' in my meal... if I feel I need a little salt I'll add it... most times the foods actually have a richer taste once you're off salt, same as those that give up sugar.


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## MikeOReilly

smurphny said:


> Anything dried is a tremendous space saver: Rice, Beans, Pasta, Oatmeal, Flour, Wheatena, Farina, etc. Just add water. It can even be seawater for pasta and rice. I put stuff like this in hard plastic storage containers that I've chosen for their sizes so they fit in the available spaces.


Agreed. This is why I'm into serious drying of a whole range of veggies and some meats right now. I can store a month's worth of high-quality food in a pretty small space. And I know exactly what I've got. Add to this the rice, beans pasta and flour and I could be set for years .

BTW, as a science journalist and general skeptic (in the best sense of the word), I am always dubious of any broad-based health claims. Gary is exactly right in regards to cholesterol and trans-fats. Medical research have found relationships between these things and higher rates of morbidity and mortality, but especially in the case of cholesterol, no causal links have yet been identified. As with most things, the "truth" is likely more nuanced than popular culture has the patience for.

I tend to follow the principle of taking _everything in moderation, including (at times) moderation _


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## guitarguy56

My son just now turned me onto this incredible water filtration idea as he was researching for one of his classes... definitely something that could be used here and elsewhere. I wonder if this would remove salt... further investigation needed.










PLOS ONE: Water Filtration Using Plant Xylem


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## mrhoneydew

guitarguy56 said:


> My son just now turned me onto this incredible water filtration idea as he was researching for one of his classes... definitely something that could be used here and elsewhere. I wonder if this would remove salt... further investigation needed.


I've seen this filter. Great idea! I bet if you add a little charcoal it will work even better AND you could change out the charcoal to make it last even longer. A backwoods Brita! I doubt it will remove salt though... the difference between average seawater and potable water is about 30ppm vs. 9ppm (ppm = parts per million). The membrane in a watermaker is significantly less porous than your average stick, so my guess is the salt would pretty much flow right through since it dissolves down to base molecules in water whereas the particulate matter in dirty water remains larger than that and will be caught by the filter. It would be interesting to try it just to see how much salt might be removed, though.


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## guitarguy56

mrhoneydew said:


> I've seen this filter. Great idea! I bet if you add a little charcoal it will work even better AND you could change out the charcoal to make it last even longer. A backwoods Brita! I doubt it will remove salt though... the difference between average seawater and potable water is about 30ppm vs. 9ppm (ppm = parts per million). The membrane in a watermaker is significantly less porous than your average stick, so my guess is the salt would pretty much flow right through since it dissolves down to base molecules in water whereas the particulate matter in dirty water remains larger than that and will be caught by the filter. It would be interesting to try it just to see how much salt might be removed, though.


Agree but having the filter remove the dye indicates it may remove the salts with additional materials (ceramics, other membrane materials)... worth checking into though.


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## MikeOReilly

MarkofSeaLife said:


> JAMA Network | JAMA | Fatal and Nonfatal Outcomes, Incidence of Hypertension, and Blood Pressure Changes in Relation to Urinary Sodium Excretion


Fascinating reading Mark. Thanks. Much more research needs to be undertaken in this vein (ha!), but I love these kinds of studies which throw mud in the eye of so called "truths." In our search for a quick fix our societies (people, as well as institutions) sometimes latch on to easy answers. The real Truth is usually more complex than simply cutting out one thing, or adding more of another thing.

The message is once again clear: _"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."_ (Quotation by H. L. Mencken)


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## Capt Len

Canned abundant sea foods of all types up the coast back in the '70s.So much that it was trade goods to barter for fruit and vegs and plenty left over for winter provisions. Wild berries and tree fruit fair game for drying too. Salmon(add a dollop of vinegar for the bones) and meat put up in Mason wide mouth (tapered)pints and quarts. Other stuff can go in shouldered jars No salt..Glass lids and reusable rubbers rings .Once sealed, remove metal rings and store them in really dry place. The polyethylene foam vapour barrier for concrete to bottom plate comes in 6 inch rolls ,just right to insulate the jars from vibration . As a kid on the farm, we canned hundreds of quarts every year in an open copper boiler on a colman gas two burner. Never a bad jar ,but you have to be observant. So it wasn't a stretch to take the practice afloat with a 20 liter pressure unit .I could easily hide several hundred quart jars under the cabin sole and not notice the weight so it might have a lot to do with choosing the right vessel for the chosen lifestyle.


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## travlin-easy

Here's the best one on Cholesterol mythology. 




Gary


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## sortant

Sailing the Farm: Independence on Thirty Feet - A Survival Guide to ... - Ken Neumeyer

Cheers


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## mrhoneydew

Another topic I am wondering about, on an extended cruise if you're going remote how do some of you get potable water? I had considered a watermaker, but then decided it's too much expense and yet one more system to potentially fail. Not that it is necessarily hard to come by water, but how do y'all collect it? I am thinking I want to be as self-sufficient as possible and in places like, say, the South Pacific we might be taking water supplies from islanders who have no other means of collecting it than rainfall. So, do you rig tarps to collect when it's raining? Also, who has cooked their pasta/beans/rice in seawater? Do you typically cut it with fresh water or no?


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## Lou452

guitarguy56 said:


> My son just now turned me onto this incredible water filtration idea as he was researching for one of his classes... definitely something that could be used here and elsewhere. I wonder if this would remove salt... further investigation needed.
> 
> I like the concept. As it appears in the picture I am not sure would work? It might be a type of wood that would allow flow ? You can use wood as a plug. to me this looks like a plug. Wood even has the ability to swell up and make the plug tighter. You can sharpen an end to dive it into a thru hull the has broken off or a hole in a pipe or maybe the hull itself.
> Their are some good home made U- tube clips on water filtration. one of them used a two litter pop bottle a few sizes of rocks sand and grass with homemade charcoal . The fire that makes the charcoal can also can be used to boil the water you filter. An Egyptian well can be used before you start if you can not find moving water.
> I thought we covered water filtration once already ? Never hurts to go over a important subject a few times.
> kind Regards, Lou


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## guitarguy56

Lou452 said:


> guitarguy56 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My son just now turned me onto this incredible water filtration idea as he was researching for one of his classes... definitely something that could be used here and elsewhere. I wonder if this would remove salt... further investigation needed.
> 
> 
> 
> I like the concept. As it appears in the picture I am not sure would work? It might be a type of wood that would allow flow ? You can use wood as a plug. to me this looks like a plug. Wood even has the ability to swell up and make the plug tighter. You can sharpen an end to dive it into a thru hull the has broken off or a hole in a pipe or maybe the hull itself.
> Their are some good home made U- tube clips on water filtration. one of them used a two litter pop bottle a few sizes of rocks sand and grass with homemade charcoal . The fire that makes the charcoal can also can be used to boil the water you filter. An Egyptian well can be used before you start if you can not find moving water.
> I thought we covered water filtration once already ? Never hurts to go over a important subject a few times.
> kind Regards, Lou
Click to expand...

Read the article just below the photo... apparently the lab setup test they did had purity tests of 99.9% of drinkable water... now I just found that using 'graphene' in the form of nano-carbons can filter out the salines from seawater and purify to R/O or better purification.

The concept above is being researched for purifying water in third world countries as an alternative to electrical energy based systems and are more gravity type pressure systems with the filter at the end... I'm thinking more a purification type setup for rain water collected on the boat either for drinking or other uses I would not want to use seawater.


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## smurphny

travlineasy said:


> Here's the best one on Cholesterol mythology. Cholesterol and Heart Disease - YouTube
> 
> Gary


I wish there were more skeptics regarding all kinds of popular "truths" that society accepts. The problem is with the tyranny of academia and the selective nature of statistical methods. The "studies" that confirm and deny popular beliefs are always done by "researchers" who have vested interests in proving their hypotheses. When politically motivated news media picks up on something that fits their political agenda, all truth goes out the window.


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## killarney_sailor

mrhoneydew said:


> Another topic I am wondering about, on an extended cruise if you're going remote how do some of you get potable water? I had considered a watermaker, but then decided it's too much expense and yet one more system to potentially fail. Not that it is necessarily hard to come by water, but how do y'all collect it? I am thinking I want to be as self-sufficient as possible and in places like, say, the South Pacific we might be taking water supplies from islanders who have no other means of collecting it than rainfall. So, do you rig tarps to collect when it's raining? Also, who has cooked their pasta/beans/rice in seawater? Do you typically cut it with fresh water or no?


Like most things, it depends. You have to consider two things, the quantity of water and the quality. If you go into the South Pacific do not assume that you are going into some necessarily primitive society. The best water we have gotten anywhere in the world including North America was on the island of Mangareva in a backwater of French Polynesia. Came from a spring high up a volcanic mountain and then was treated before being piped to the town (pop'n of 1200 or so). Was free, just had to carry it from a tap to the dinghy dock (~100 m). You do want to have a couple of water jerry cans onboard. Some places you have to buy water and it will not be all that cheap. On Ascension Island the water was 1 pound sterling for a jerry can. In some areas there is water but it may be of dubious quality.

We have a couple of sections of plastic rain gutter onboard that we can attach to the outer edges of the bimini with plastic tubing going into one of our jerry cans. We use this water mainly for washing but have dumped them into the main tanks after a few hours of rain (we use bleach and two filters on the house water). Not sure these are worth the trouble or space involved. We are planning to build a rigid bimini and will include a combined hand rail/rain collector onto it.


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## MikeOReilly

smurphny said:


> I wish there were more skeptics regarding all kinds of popular "truths" that society accepts. The problem is with the tyranny of academia and the selective nature of statistical methods. The "studies" that confirm and deny popular beliefs are always done by "researchers" who have vested interests in proving their hypotheses. When politically motivated news media picks up on something that fits their political agenda, all truth goes out the window.


Scientists are as human as the rest of us (believe it or not ). They are as fallible and as open to bias as the rest of us. What sets science apart is that it is a self-correcting process that inexorably drive toward better understanding. That's why it is important not to jump to conclusions with regard to scientific research, or worse, latch onto any one piece of information or study and use it to promote a perspective.

This is the bigger problem I see ... that people with a perspective or belief cherry-pick specific scientific development to "prove" their point. While there are certainly some researchers who have been bought by special interests, the real problem is that most people don't understand how science works, or in the more egregious cases (tobacco smoking, climate change, etc.) people who blatantly abuse science for their own political or economic purposes.


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## MikeOReilly

killarney_sailor said:


> We have a couple of sections of plastic rain gutter onboard that we can attach to the outer edges of the bimini with plastic tubing going into one of our jerry cans. We use this water mainly for washing but have dumped them into the main tanks after a few hours of rain (we use bleach and two filters on the house water). Not sure these are worth the trouble or space involved. We are planning to build a rigid bimini and will include a combined hand rail/rain collector onto it.


I've been planning to carry something like this so I can set it up to collect rain:










I've also read about people collecting rainwater from their sails. Any luck or advice around that KS?


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## MarkofSeaLife

smurphny said:


> "researchers" who have vested interests in proving their hypotheses.


Researchers have to research only what they are able to get grants for.
For instance an expert can't research "Kangaroos and how they hop" but to get funding must make it politically acceptable: "Global Warming may make kangaroos Extinct because it changes Hopping".


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## smurphny

MikeOReilly said:


> Scientists are as human as the rest of us (believe it or not ). They are as fallible and as open to bias as the rest of us. What sets science apart is that it is a self-correcting process that inexorably drive toward better understanding. That's why it is important not to jump to conclusions with regard to scientific research, or worse, latch onto any one piece of information or study and use it to promote a perspective.
> 
> This is the bigger problem I see ... that people with a perspective or belief cherry-pick specific scientific development to "prove" their point. While there are certainly some researchers who have been bought by special interests, the real problem is that most people don't understand how science works, or in the more egregious cases (tobacco smoking, climate change, etc.) people who blatantly abuse science for their own political or economic purposes.


I believe the overwhelming majority of scientists are honestly doing what they perceive as the search for scientific truth. They just don't seem to appreciate the very elusive nature of truth because, like scientists throughout history, they believe they know more than they actually do. It's a case of misplaced egocentric behavior. Those in academia are also severely pressured to accept certain truths as a prerequisite to keeping their jobs. This is true in all fields of academic study, not just science. It is a major unconscious failing of human nature; that tribal, monkey-like group-think that impedes progress and causes all kinds of terrible strife.


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## MikeOReilly

smurphny said:


> I believe the overwhelming majority of scientists are honestly doing what they perceive as the search for scientific truth. They just don't seem to appreciate the very elusive nature of truth because, like scientists throughout history, they believe they know more than they actually do. It's a case of misplaced egocentric behavior. Those in academia are also severely pressured to accept certain truths as a prerequisite to keeping their jobs. This is true in all fields of academic study, not just science. It is a major unconscious failing of human nature; that tribal, monkey-like group-think that impedes progress and causes all kinds of terrible strife.


That's the power of science. It is self-correcting process that drives to improved understanding regardless of our species' fallibilities. Individual researchers can be capricious, stupid or corrupt. The amazing thing about science is that, in the medium to long term, it doesn't matter. The process of science will eventually drive to improved understandings.

BTW, no good scientist ever talks about Truth with a capital "T". The best science can do is arrive at contingent truths. That too is a fundamental difference from past paradigms of understanding. Science relies of reproducible evidence, not reference to authority. Science it ripe with false starts and faulty branches, but eventually evidence mounts to halt or change the contingent understanding.

This does not mean nothing in science is concrete. As hypothesis continue to stand the constant challenges put to them, they eventually move to the level of scientific theory. Scientific theories are not someone's kooky idea, they are concepts that are as near to certain as any knowledge can be.

This is why I think science (which is a process, not a thing) is the most amazing development to come out of homosapien evolution. Despite all our inherent limitations, our "monkey-like group-think" as you put it, we have devised a process that still produces improved understanding of the world around us.

... sorry for the tangent. Now, back to frugal cruising.


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## MikeOReilly

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Researchers have to research only what they are able to get grants for.
> For instance an expert can't research "Kangaroos and how they hop" but to get funding must make it politically acceptable: "Global Warming may make kangaroos Extinct because it changes Hopping".


Actually, there's tons of research on Kangaroos ... even some looking at "how they hop." No need to attach it to a so-called politically acceptable theme.


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## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> I've been planning to carry something like this so I can set it up to collect rain:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've also read about people collecting rainwater from their sails. Any luck or advice around that KS?


mike along this theme we used scoops on the dodger, and gooseneck areas where the boom water would trickle too

the first minute of rain or so we would not catch rain then after the initial rinse we would open the petcocks

we would also barricade deck water into the fill holes using wood and or plastic that could bend into shape

other tricks are using biminis as catchers and loosen a few straps so the middle would sag...we had installed a few pectcocks in the low areas and then simply fill jerry cans in the cockpit

lastly a nice rain shower are one of the most glorious things mid ocean and we appreciated it so much

often times dancing like mad men thanking the gods...we would also wash clothes against the non skid as it helped get all the dirt out more easily....non skid is great for that.



ps for the gooseneck filler area(it depends on boats but our low point was the goosenck area) we simply bungee strapped a funnel and tube down to jerry cans or the water fill cap. simple

to "disinfect" this water we used tablets or 1 drop of bleach per galon or something like that, I forget.

oh an ps again.....

rain water can be dangerous...if you are near active volcanoes or greenhouse gases or big industrial parks etc its not recomended to catch rain as there is a lot of sulfur in this water....often the rain is artificially created cause of temperature and humidity changes created by said things but mid ocean its not common so yo are fine...jajaja

I forgot who told us this mid cruise but we were anchored somewhere and somebody got very technical regarding what rainfall was acceptable and which was not...my captain was a doctor so the jargon got interesting...

in the end what stuck was mid ocean, storm water or squall water just fine....close to land or volcanoes or polluted dense air like over los angeles it would not be recomended unless heavy filtering was done...

peace


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## killarney_sailor

MikeOReilly said:


> I've been planning to carry something like this so I can set it up to collect rain:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've also read about people collecting rainwater from their sails. Any luck or advice around that KS?


Look at where the rainwater goes on your sails now and see if you make minor mods to direct the water into a hose. Should work OK, if you start collecting after it has rained enough to clean the sails of significant contaminants. Guess we are talking about mainsails, so you would need one with a bolt rope on the foot. We have a furling main so it is loose and a distance above the main.

Another possibility if you are in the middle of an ocean or a very clean anchorage - you can use a clean towel as a dam at a water fill to collect the water that runs downhill. Again, depends on the specific configuration of the boat.


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## fryewe

MikeOReilly said:


> Science relies of reproducible evidence, not reference to authority.


The ____-teen pages of posts in the AGW thread discussing the 97% consensus of "scientists" suggests otherwise...

...but does anyone with limited water storage or making capacity time their voyages to coincide with seasons of precipitation to avoid running out of water? Seems to me that waiting for "weather windows" to sail might reduce opportunities for catching rain water to augment potable water supplies. Is there a reference for precipitation analogous to the Pilot Charts for winds?


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## JonEisberg

MikeOReilly said:


> I've been planning to carry something like this so I can set it up to collect rain:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've also read about people collecting rainwater from their sails. Any luck or advice around that KS?


Loose-footed mains aren't very conducive to water catchment, unfortunately... The old 'shelf foot' that one used to see on some mains years ago would have worked well, but I haven't seen one of those in years...

Any voyaging boat should have water tank fills placed at or near the lowest spot on deck where rainwater will collect, IMHO... Many might be surprised at how much water one can collect during the course of a typical tropical downpour...


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## smurphny

The problem I find in collecting rainwater is due to the large area needed to really make it effective. I've collected 5-10 gallons at times with a piece of Sunbrella that covers most of the aft deck but it would have to rain hard for a long time to fill my main tank. I plan on putting diverter Tees on my port and starboard gunwale deck drains. The side decks essentially collect water from the entire deck AND from the sail runoff. They will likely only be useable at anchor and only after letting the decks wash down for a while to remove any dirt or salt but they collect a LOT of water in a hurry. It would only take minutes of a torrential downpour to collect 50-60 gallons without having to rig up some sort of canvas collector.

I don't use the tank water for consumption and treat it with chlorine quite heavily so some contamination is ok, even a bit of salt or leftover seagull droppings wouldn't be catastrophic.


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## christian.hess

smurphny said:


> The problem I find in collecting rainwater is due to the large area needed to really make it effective. I've collected 5-10 gallons at times with a piece of Sunbrella that covers most of the aft deck but it would have to rain hard for a long time to fill my main tank. I plan on putting diverter Tees on my port and starboard gunwale deck drains. The side decks essentially collect water from the entire deck AND from the sail runoff. They will likely only be useable at anchor and only after letting the decks wash down for a while to remove any dirt or salt but they collect a LOT of water in a hurry. It would only take minutes of a torrential downpour to collect 50-60 gallons without having to rig up some sort of canvas collector.


when sailing the trades its possible to collect A LOT OF WATER...thats what we did, we first would brush of dirt...then after the first few minutes we barricaded the fill holes and managed to collect 10, 20 even up to 30 galons in minutes...

some of the downpours would drop torrential rain for about 3-5 minutes...the amount of water is impressive...

we had no water shortage at all when trade sailing

our captain out of boredom used the water maker...and it was a good one but no matter what we did to it the taste was horrible

Id take rain water and a drop of disinfectant any day over a watermaker

and ps. WATERMAKERS require lots of maintenance...steady maintenance as the seals especially the little rubber seals always fail and crud up...

we could only drink watermaker water when mixed with orange tang or similar to take the taste away. to me its horrible...

at the most I would only take a manual watermaker I forget the name of one of the popular ones but just for emergency situations...


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## smurphny

Agree that the watermaker water does not taste very good. I have a Survivor 35 type that I got as military surplus ($200 vs $2000 at marine supply store). It gets kept in the ditch bag but would work in an emergency, such as when someone leaves the pump on, a line leaks, and drains all the fresh water into the bilge! I keep three 5 gallon containers for drinking water. The switch for the pressure system remains OFF unless being used. There's a wrist band on the switch. You turn the water on, you don the wrist band to remind you to turn the water back off after using.


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## christian.hess

Im a huge fan of bottled water in storage, pay attention to expiration dates too...

that the one the survivir 35, as an emergency dithc bag scenario deal I have NO interest in electric watermakers...

honestly its false economy...as with most things if the **** hits the fan and you are left with no batteries or half sunk an electric watermakers is no use at all

a manual one with a nice container and thats that.

we or I learned from this a lot...


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## JonEisberg

smurphny said:


> The problem I find in collecting rainwater is due to the large area needed to really make it effective. I've collected 5-10 gallons at times with a piece of Sunbrella that covers most of the aft deck but it would have to rain hard for a long time to fill my main tank. I plan on putting diverter Tees on my port and starboard gunwale deck drains. The side decks essentially collect water from the entire deck AND from the sail runoff. They will likely only be useable at anchor and only after letting the decks wash down for a while to remove any dirt or salt but they collect a LOT of water in a hurry. It would only take minutes of a torrential downpour to collect 50-60 gallons without having to rig up some sort of canvas collector.
> 
> I don't use the tank water for consumption and treat it with chlorine quite heavily so some contamination is ok, even a bit of salt or leftover seagull droppings wouldn't be catastrophic.


The thing about collecting rainwater, particularly in the tropics, is that heavy rain is often accompanied by wind, and sometimes lots of it... Deck awnings and such might sometimes be better stowed in advance of such deluges, so I think deck catchment is by far the most practical way to go...

I slip these little diverters in place when I want to catch water, they work great... Pardon the dirty deck, it was covered with acid snow until about 2 days ago 












christian.hess said:


> Id take rain water and a drop of disinfectant any day over a watermaker
> 
> and ps. WATERMAKERS require lots of maintenance...steady maintenance as the seals especially the little rubber seals always fail and crud up...
> 
> ...
> 
> at the most I would only take a manual watermaker I forget the name of one of the popular ones but just for emergency situations...


Agreed, not to mention that the mere mention of an electrically-driven watermaker in a "Voyaging on $500/month" thread is laughable. Few pieces of equipment one can put on a boat are more antithetical to the concept of cruising on a tight budget...


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## smurphny

Jon, I like the idea of completely separate deck catchment fittings. It does away with having to get underneath and turn valves. Will have to rethink which way to go when I get round to doing this.


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## MikeOReilly

Thanks for all the great water ideas guys. This is why I appreciate this thread. No matter what one's actual cruising budget, the ideas explored here can be used by everyone. 

I'm going to play with deck diverters next season. Our deck fill is on a riser, probably to avoid inadvertent contamination, so the water level will have to rise by ~4cm before it will flow over. However, we do have the advantage of having a tall, solid toe rail. I bet I could trap a lot of water using something akin to your design Jon, or perhaps just towels as you suggest Christian.

What about a reefed mainsail to collect and divert the water? No matter what the foot (our is a external track), with a slightly reefed main I'm thinking you should be able to create a lower channel with the sail fold.

Has anyone thought about, or used some sort of inline filter while filling from rain? A moderately fine screen filter would at least remove most of the chunky bits.

BTW, this whole water thing is new for me. Where I sail, if our tanks run dry we just refill directly from Lake Superior. Another reason why I love it up here.


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## christian.hess

JonEisberg said:


> The thing about collecting rainwater, particularly in the tropics, is that heavy rain is often accompanied by wind, and sometimes lots of it... Deck awnings and such might sometimes be better stowed in advance of such deluges, so I think deck catchment is by far the most practical way to go...
> 
> I slip these little diverters in place when I want to catch water, they work great... Pardon the dirty deck, it was covered with acid snow until about 2 days ago
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, not to mention that the mere mention of an electrically-driven watermaker in a "Voyaging on $500/month" thread is laughable. Few pieces of equipment one can put on a boat are more antithetical to the concept of cruising on a tight budget...


Jon did you make those water catchers yourself? very neat

we would use water plastic bendeable material we had...

ofetn times even a cut up bottle bent into a damn of sort...our holes were flush so a bit easier to catch water....

but in torrential rains it didnt matter really

good stuff guys

peace


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## travlin-easy

Jon, love the diverter - looks neat, efficient, and if I had a deck fill, I would be making one tonight. Unfortunately, the tank on that Morgan is filled by running a hose in the cabin door and opening a cap on top of the tank, which is situated beneath the vee berth. I'm still trying to find a way to rig some sort of deck fill. The tank doesn't even have a vent, other than a tiny one in the fill cap. It's one of those many jobs I really don't want to tackle anymore.

Gary


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## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> Thanks for all the great water ideas guys. This is why I appreciate this thread. No matter what one's actual cruising budget, the ideas explored here can be used by everyone.
> 
> I'm going to play with deck diverters next season. Our deck fill is on a riser, probably to avoid inadvertent contamination, so the water level will have to rise by ~4cm before it will flow over. However, we do have the advantage of having a tall, solid toe rail. I bet I could trap a lot of water using something akin to your design Jon, or perhaps just towels as you suggest Christian.
> 
> What about a reefed mainsail to collect and divert the water? No matter what the foot (our is a external track), with a slightly reefed main I'm thinking you should be able to create a lower channel with the sail fold.
> 
> Has anyone thought about, or used some sort of inline filter while filling from rain? A moderately fine screen filter would at least remove most of the chunky bits.
> 
> BTW, this whole water thing is new for me. Where I sail, if our tanks run dry we just refill directly from Lake Superior. Another reason why I love it up here.


I think someone else recomended the towel trick(I recomended any flexible plastic) but in downpours it works great, anything does really so much water it makes you laugh...

a sponge(clean) filters fine but is slow and can overfill your funnel in seconds so a screen mesh is fine...

we disinfected directly in the tank...a cap of bleach after the squall wait for a bit to mix in, and call it a day...


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## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> I think someone else recomended the towel trick(I recomended any flexible plastic) but in downpours it works great, anything does really so much water it makes you laugh...
> 
> a sponge(clean) filters fine but is slow and can overfill your funnel in seconds so a screen mesh is fine...
> 
> we disinfected directly in the tank...a cap of bleach after the squall wait for a bit to mix in, and call it a day...


My apologies ... it was killarney_sailor; sorry KS.

I was thinking some sort of mesh screen filter -- something like a basic drain filter. Then use bleach to disinfect.


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## christian.hess

yes cliche but pantyhose has a lot to offer in filtering properties

we used it to filter fuel, and water too

on my small boat we used a baja filter(a common diesel) water separator filtering device for bad fuel around the world

doing the refueling at sea with jerry cans, over a teak deck in a small boat was enough to dissuade me 15 years so so later to never ever ever ever ever refual at sea ever again

having a wooden boat and restoring it did this for me...

tangent thoughts aside speaking about filtering just brought me bad memories once again

its part of the reason I am wanting to go electric propulsionsome day when battery tech is a little less heavyweight and expensive

again sorry for the thread derail.

I have learned a few hard lessons and some apllied lessons while cruising some of the ones I remember now are:

jerry canning fuel using dinghy, taxi, whatever to and from the boat is a never again type deal for me, at least for inboards on a regular shedule...

excessive electronics and accessories another no no.

complicated or non redundant electrical grounds or systems...by that I mean Id rather have separate grounds and 1 to 2 systems tied into said ground.

overstocking a no no(want old biscotti half way around the world? dont think so)
although in an emergency you cant complain

no watermaker

and overthinking/planning voyages is another no no.

go with the flow respecting weather patterns and or stops etc...is better

anywhoo

back to 500 a month voyaging


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## Don L

I don't know why a watermaker is out of the question any more than AIS/radar etc as I thought the rules were that it doesn't apply if you get it while still working.

Watermakers are just like refrigeration in that they work fine and last a long time if you take care of them.


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## travlin-easy

You can always use a Flo "N" Go system for refueling safely at sea using Jerry cans. The secret to doing this quickly is making sure the Jerry cans are at a higher level than the fill for the tank. The Flo "N" Go in the siphon mode moves about 2 gallons per minute.

All the best,

Gary


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## christian.hess

are you talking about the new "safe" nozzles yeah they are great until that little push button craps off or breaks and now you have no way of bypassing this wonderful childproof safety feature

we used simple open jerry cans like offshore panga fishermen use...big hole sealed up with saran wrap a few times and safety tied

poured into a big funnel they fueles a lot faster than any nozzled jerry can CAN

in any case my beef with refueling was how ugly and messy it could be and how against nature it felt

its not like we were a rescue copter supply hercules fuel tanker

no we were a SAILBOAT mid ocean, REFUELING...just felt so dumb with what? 20knots of trades on the stern?

anywhoo


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## mike95910

Just wanted to chime in and say I loved reading these posts. I would love living off my boat for $500 a month.


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## killarney_sailor

fryewe said:


> The ____-teen pages of posts in the AGW thread discussing the 97% consensus of "scientists" suggests otherwise...
> 
> ...but does anyone with limited water storage or making capacity time their voyages to coincide with seasons of precipitation to avoid running out of water? Seems to me that waiting for "weather windows" to sail might reduce opportunities for catching rain water to augment potable water supplies. Is there a reference for precipitation analogous to the Pilot Charts for winds?


I think you are confusing weather and climate here. If you are doing a passage long enough that water supplies matter the weather window will not matter after a couple of days or so. So that gets us to climate and choosing to travel in the wet season. Generally people try to avoid these because it is more pleasant to cruise in drier times, especially in the tropics where it can really rain. Also wet seasons often can correspond to the various tropical cyclone seasons.


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## travlin-easy

If you would have depended upon rainwater when I was in Marathon Key last winter, you would have died of thirst. It only rained one day in three months.

Gary


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## killarney_sailor

Good point, Gary. We had one day (OK, one hour) of rain from South Africa to near the Equator reasonably close to Brazil.


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## Omatako

A few observations from the latest posts:

If your watermaker water doesn't taste good, you probably have a depleted membrane or one that has been left for a long time without pickling. In our experience watermaker water is not as good as spring or rain water because it tastes very neutral - but it never tastes bad. Bad tasting watermaker water is normally because the salt is not being totally removed leaving the water brackish. This is just a membrane that is at the end of it's life or maybe you input pressure is too high?

If your watermaker requires constant maintenance (failing seals etc) then it probably needs to be rebuilt or replaced. A newish watermaker (less than 10 years) requires very little maintenance provided your pre-filtering is good (5 microns), it is used regularly and there isn't any oil/fuel in the seawater.

If you want to catch water off your main, get a stack-pack. I have a loose footed main with a Doyle Stac-pac and when it rains we hoist the end of the boom on the topping lift and we get a lot of water at the front end of the boom. The mainsail empties it's contents directly into the stac-pac. We do this while sailing.

Alternately we also have a canvas sheet in a triangle that ties to the jib furler and the first two mast shrouds with a hose fitting in the geometric centre and a pipe to the tanks. This gathers a good deal of water as well, we use it when at anchor.

Finally, our boat has scupper about 4 inches high and there are two deck drains that go through the boat and out the bottom. I plan on realigning them and have them going to a y-valve so that they can be diverted to the tanks once the decks have washed clean. This will only work for me at anchor because at sea you can't guarantee no seawater on the decks.

All of this is moot if you're in an area where it doesn't rain a lot so score 1 for the watermaker. It doesn't care about rain.


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## smurphny

travlineasy said:


> If you would have depended upon rainwater when I was in Marathon Key last winter, you would have died of thirst. It only rained one day in three months.
> 
> Gary


That's amazing. This year I was on a mooring in Stuart for a couple of months. With all the cold fronts passing through, there was PLENTY of rainwater available. One of the storms set records for rainfall and caused a lot of local damage and flooding. Coming back last week, I had to dodge tornadoes and lots of thunderstorms. It was an active weather year!


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## Brent Swain

Cheese needs no refrigeration. Just put it in a jar and cover it with cooking oil ,and it will last forever. When the cheese is done you can still use the oil for cooking. They make plastic lids for canning jars ,which lets you use them for other things, when you don't have meat or fish to put in them.


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## mrhoneydew

Don0190 said:


> I don't know why a watermaker is out of the question any more than AIS/radar etc as I thought the rules were that it doesn't apply if you get it while still working.
> 
> Watermakers are just like refrigeration in that they work fine and last a long time if you take care of them.


I wouldn't say a watermaker is necessarily out of the question, nor is AIS/radar. I think of these discussions more as guidelines for making cruising on a budget possible rather than being hardfast "rules." If I wanted to live by hardfast rules I would stay on land, get a 9-5, a wife, a house, squeeze out a couple of kids... and then subsequently end up blowing my brains out.

******WAIT!!! Before people get all offended... that is simply not the life for me. If that's what floats your boat, more power to ya. I make the judgement only for myself, not at large.*****

Anyway, the reason we bring these things up is some of us are working on outfitting and discussing them helps to inform our decisions. Everyone's needs are different. I had thought that it would be the best idea to be able to make my own water while out. But being prudent and taking advantage of rain water via catchment is far less expensive and, generally speaking, watermakers and refrigeration (which we already covered a while back) are two things that can be a) expensive at the outset and b) finicky requiring more maintenance than some other systems. Granted, technology advances and tends to make things cheaper and more reliable, but as budget cruisers we need to weigh the costs for the life of the system and decide if that is where we want to put our $. After reading some of the responses to my water query I might think about some small, manual watermaker like a Survivor 35 for the ditchbag or when water is extremely low... but it will be for emergency situations rather than the system I depend on regularly to fill my tank. AND I can consider how I will catch water before I leave and make sure I have the supplies onboard to make the system work.

Thank you, $500/mo voyagers!


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## Brent Swain

Last trip to Tonga and back, I took zero water from ashore. It all came from catchment water, from the mainsail, or the wheelhouse top, or the decks. I was never short of water.


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## christian.hess

Omatako said:


> A few observations from the latest posts:
> 
> If your watermaker water doesn't taste good, you probably have a depleted membrane or one that has been left for a long time without pickling. In our experience watermaker water is not as good as spring or rain water because it tastes very neutral - but it never tastes bad. Bad tasting watermaker water is normally because the salt is not being totally removed leaving the water brackish. This is just a membrane that is at the end of it's life or maybe you input pressure is too high?
> 
> If your watermaker requires constant maintenance (failing seals etc) then it probably needs to be rebuilt or replaced. A newish watermaker (less than 10 years) requires very little maintenance provided your pre-filtering is good (5 microns), it is used regularly and there isn't any oil/fuel in the seawater.
> 
> If you want to catch water off your main, get a stack-pack. I have a loose footed main with a Doyle Stac-pac and when it rains we hoist the end of the boom on the topping lift and we get a lot of water at the front end of the boom. The mainsail empties it's contents directly into the stac-pac. We do this while sailing.
> 
> Alternately we also have a canvas sheet in a triangle that ties to the jib furler and the first two mast shrouds with a hose fitting in the geometric centre and a pipe to the tanks. This gathers a good deal of water as well, we use it when at anchor.
> 
> Finally, our boat has scupper about 4 inches high and there are two deck drains that go through the boat and out the bottom. I plan on realigning them and have them going to a y-valve so that they can be diverted to the tanks once the decks have washed clean. This will only work for me at anchor because at sea you can't guarantee no seawater on the decks.
> 
> All of this is moot if you're in an area where it doesn't rain a lot so score 1 for the watermaker. It doesn't care about rain.


you are completely right...it was the neutral taste I just couldnt get past, the watermaker was a very good 6k watermaker its was newish(5 years old) when I was aboard....

like said before the owner used it out of boredom...in fact after starting it mid pacific it failed, it was in fact one of the membranes so we did a complete flush of the system like the manufacturer recomended...

it was an easy albeit a bit tedious process...

after that something else sort of needing tweaking and we got it to work fine for another few thousand miles and it was great

despite the fact that it felt like I was tasting serum in the hospital

we were on another boat, a spanish cat in the red sea who let us try his water and I almost puked it was so bad...but he did in fact have leaking membranes and was trying to get some water out if it

my point was taste just didnt cut it for me

for an amergency a manual watemaker is high on the list for me, just not for every day use...I dont see it remotely necessary for any trade sailing or most routes commonly used today

red sea yes...


----------



## Brent Swain

smurphny said:


> Anything dried is a tremendous space saver: Rice, Beans, Pasta, Oatmeal, Flour, Wheatena, Farina, etc. Just add water. It can even be seawater for pasta and rice. I put stuff like this in hard plastic storage containers that I've chosen for their sizes so they fit in the available spaces. You'll still get bugs in some stuff because it comes complete with them but they can be washed out or just added to the protein (just kidding). Rice seems to be the worst for developing critters. I can make good no-knead bread in a pressure cooker right on the stovetop. Sorry Brett, beer is right up there on the essentials list


\
Moitessier said, just throw a rag soaked in alcohol into your rice and seal it, and the evaporating alcohol will kill the bug eggs . I have put it on my cabin top under a black tarp in the tropical sun to cook them out . It seemed to work. West of Tahiti ,in Samoa ,I found no bugs or bug eggs in the rice. That seems to be mainly a French Polynesia problem


----------



## Brent Swain

travlineasy said:


> Brent, I just went through the ingredients on all the Delmonte canned vegetables that I usually stock on the boat - no mention of phosphorus on any of them. So, I decided to call their 800 number and ask, the person at the other end assured me there is no added phosphorus and that because they are vacuum sealed in the canning process, there is no need for preservatives of any kind, and they also advertise this.
> 
> Next, I checked Chef Boyarde - same thing - not listed, and not used or necessary.
> 
> Finally, I checked with Healthy Choice and the results were the same - including the results from a phone call to their 800 number - no phosphorus or preservatives used at all and not needed. The meals are cooked, then flash frozen in their respective packages.
> 
> Now, one thing I can tell you from 15 years working in cardio-pulmonary medicine, the jury is still out on trans-fats for cardiovascular disease. Additionally, so is cholesterol. In fact, the largest study ever conducted about the relationship of cardiovascular disease and cholesterol clearly concludes that there is NO correlation at all. The study, which was performed by the World Health Organization, revealed that populations with the highest cholesterol levels and highest consumption of fats, had the lowest incidence of cardiovascular disease. And, from my own experience, while working in the field at Johns Hopkins and University of Maryland Hospitals, confirmed those results. The vast majority of my patients that underwent bypass surgery had low or normal cholesterol levels.
> 
> Now, have you ever enjoyed the wonderful flavor of beer pancakes?
> 
> PS: Just got a call back from Dinty Moore and they DO NOT use preservatives of any kind in any of their canned products. No added phosphorus - nothing. They also said it their preparation made this totally unnecessary.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


There was a warning not that long ago about the plastic lining in cans mimicking hormones . Lexan water bottles had the same problem.
Cholesterol lowering drugs and their side effects have been far more damaging than Cholesterol ever was.
People over 80 with a higher cholesterol level tend to live longer.


----------



## christian.hess

Brent Swain said:


> \
> Moitessier said, just throw a rag soaked in alcohol into your rice and seal it, and the evaporating alcohol will kill the bug eggs . I have put it on my cabin top under a black tarp in the tropical sun to cook them out . It seemed to work. West of Tahiti ,in Samoa ,I found no bugs or bug eggs in the rice. That seems to be mainly a French Polynesia problem


I need to reread his books

its been so long I forgot many of his tips...seem to rememeber this a bit now that you bring it up

man

so many things to learn from past sailors

about cans

be careful with store bought stuff, heat damage can release toxins into the product...

doesnt happen a lot but eating TOO much comercially produced canned stuff is bad
now canning your own stuff amen to that

jarring stuff yay

lots of stuff

at the restaurant we make marinated olives in glass, and sell them...its a great little treat

Ill try and take some to the boat and let them sit a while and see what happens

hopefully nothing

jjajaja

yum


----------



## travlin-easy

I had a Lean Cuisine frozen dinner for lunch today, checked the box, and it states "No Preservatives!" I had the Butternut Squash Ravioli in creamy sauce with walnuts, snap peas and carrots - damned that was good tasting. The entire dinner only had 500 mg of sodium, 7 grams if fat, 40 grams of carbs, 260 calories, 10 grams protein and only took up a space in the freezer measuring 1"X5"X7". The best part, dinner cost me $2 from Giant - it was on sale - 5 dinners for $10. They also had canned Chef Boyarde Jumbo, Italian Sausage Stuffed Ravioli for .79 cents a can, or if you bought 10, .50 cents a can. Now, back to the original thread, food and fuel seem to be the biggest budget items, but at .50 cents to $2 for dinner, you can really whack the Hell out of the food part of the budget. Add to that some fresh caught fish, and your food budget really can be a lot lower than most folks would believe. Between fish, shrimp and frozen dinners, I was down to next to nothing for meals for a pretty good segment of my trip to the sunny south.

Another thing I seemed to enjoy very much was smoked meats, mainly turkey Kielbasa, Italian sausages, and breakfast sausages, all of which take up very little space in the refrigerator and were just outstanding on the gas grill at anchorages. Yes, I grilled those fish fillets as well, using a special grilling screen that allows you to place the fillet between two screens with handles and turn them without having the fish fall apart and through the grill grate.

Another thing I like is Egg Beaters. Yeah, I know you guys seem to like real eggs, and you can store them in the bilge if coated in Vaseline or some other grease. The Egg Beaters, though, don't take up much space, they come in a variety of flavors, tex/mex, cheese omelet, and others - all of which taste really good. They last for months when refrigerated, they also make great French Toast and can be used for an egg substitute in a variety of recipes.

Another subject that helped me keep my sanity while alone for nearly two months cruising was Internet connection. I purchased a $29 external USB antenna for my laptop and was able to connect with unsecured ISPs from distances to 7 miles when I placed the antenna on the cabin top. It was pretty near, and didn't have the expense of satellite connection. Then when I wanted to watch a movie, I merely went to http://www.crackle.com/ where I could stream some great movies, even while in the swamps of North Carolina and Virginia. Plus, I was also able to upload photos to Photo and image hosting, free photo galleries, photo editing and post links to this site, and put the links in emails to my friends at home. The cost for both the movies and photobucket was zero, zip, zilch, nada! 

For regular TV, broadcast stuff, news, weather, movies, etc..., I have a 21-inch flatscreen Vizio TV on the boat and an inexpensive marine TV antenna made by Shakespere. Keep in mind that all broadcast stations are now digital in the United States, therefore, reception is limited to line of sight. The higher the antenna is mounted the better the reception. Mine is mounted on a 10-feet aluminum pole where my wind generator used to be until a hurricane wiped it out. It works pretty darned good in lots of places along the east coast, at least until you reach the Florida Keys. There is no broadcast TV in the keys, therefore, you'll have rely on your internet connection in order to watch TV.

Thought this information may be helpful,

Gary


----------



## smurphny

Brent Swain said:


> \
> Moitessier said, just throw a rag soaked in alcohol into your rice and seal it, and the evaporating alcohol will kill the bug eggs . I have put it on my cabin top under a black tarp in the tropical sun to cook them out . It seemed to work. West of Tahiti ,in Samoa ,I found no bugs or bug eggs in the rice. That seems to be mainly a French Polynesia problem


Will have to try that. I threw out a couple of bags of brown rice a few months back which had become really infested with tiny critters.

O, the water from my r.o. unit doesn't taste BAD, or salty it just has no taste, probably because it is closer to pure H2O than tap water with minerals. I give the unit a test once a year and re-pickle it with the specified maint. chemicals which is probably a good practice for emergency units that sit unused for long periods of time.


----------



## Brent Swain

I have heard that adding a tiny amount of sea water to RPO water improves the taste.


----------



## Brent Swain

travlineasy said:


> I had a Lean Cuisine frozen dinner for lunch today, checked the box, and it states "No Preservatives!" I had the Butternut Squash Ravioli in creamy sauce with walnuts, snap peas and carrots - damned that was good tasting. The entire dinner only had 500 mg of sodium, 7 grams if fat, 40 grams of carbs, 260 calories, 10 grams protein and only took up a space in the freezer measuring 1"X5"X7". The best part, dinner cost me $2 from Giant - it was on sale - 5 dinners for $10. They also had canned Chef Boyarde Jumbo, Italian Sausage Stuffed Ravioli for .79 cents a can, or if you bought 10, .50 cents a can. Now, back to the original thread, food and fuel seem to be the biggest budget items, but at .50 cents to $2 for dinner, you can really whack the Hell out of the food part of the budget. Add to that some fresh caught fish, and your food budget really can be a lot lower than most folks would believe. Between fish, shrimp and frozen dinners, I was down to next to nothing for meals for a pretty good segment of my trip to the sunny south.
> 
> Another thing I seemed to enjoy very much was smoked meats, mainly turkey Kielbasa, Italian sausages, and breakfast sausages, all of which take up very little space in the refrigerator and were just outstanding on the gas grill at anchorages. Yes, I grilled those fish fillets as well, using a special grilling screen that allows you to place the fillet between two screens with handles and turn them without having the fish fall apart and through the grill grate.
> 
> Another thing I like is Egg Beaters. Yeah, I know you guys seem to like real eggs, and you can store them in the bilge if coated in Vaseline or some other grease. The Egg Beaters, though, don't take up much space, they come in a variety of flavors, tex/mex, cheese omelet, and others - all of which taste really good. They last for months when refrigerated, they also make great French Toast and can be used for an egg substitute in a variety of recipes.
> 
> Another subject that helped me keep my sanity while alone for nearly two months cruising was Internet connection. I purchased a $29 external USB antenna for my laptop and was able to connect with unsecured ISPs from distances to 7 miles when I placed the antenna on the cabin top. It was pretty near, and didn't have the expense of satellite connection. Then when I wanted to watch a movie, I merely went to http://www.crackle.com/ where I could stream some great movies, even while in the swamps of North Carolina and Virginia. Plus, I was also able to upload photos to Photo and image hosting, free photo galleries, photo editing and post links to this site, and put the links in emails to my friends at home. The cost for both the movies and photobucket was zero, zip, zilch, nada!
> 
> For regular TV, broadcast stuff, news, weather, movies, etc..., I have a 21-inch flatscreen Vizio TV on the boat and an inexpensive marine TV antenna made by Shakespere. Keep in mind that all broadcast stations are now digital in the United States, therefore, reception is limited to line of sight. The higher the antenna is mounted the better the reception. Mine is mounted on a 10-feet aluminum pole where my wind generator used to be until a hurricane wiped it out. It works pretty darned good in lots of places along the east coast, at least until you reach the Florida Keys. There is no broadcast TV in the keys, therefore, you'll have rely on your internet connection in order to watch TV.
> 
> Thought this information may be helpful,
> 
> Gary


You keep referring to stuff which needs refrigeration, a huge pain in the ass for anyone trying to keep things simple. Add that to the cost of your meals.


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## killarney_sailor

We keep a bay leaf or three in all of our dry goods like flour and rice. No beasties in almost five years. 

I think that water maker water can be a little flat tasting because it does not have enough salts in it to taste like shore water. I read an article about purified water (all the bottled waters that are not spring waters). They take tap water and put it though a serious RO process and then add their own recipe of salts (many of which were in the tap water in the first place) to get the taste they want. A little sea water is probably not a bad idea.


----------



## travlin-easy

Brent, my refrigerator holds a lot of food, draws about 6 amps when running, which is rare because it's very heavily insulated, and my 100-watt solar panel provides more than enough power to maintain the fridge and house batteries - so no problems. That solar panel was just $213 from Home Depot and that included the cost of the regulator. I mounted it myself using $20 in Bimini fittings that I purchased online. It works like a champ. The refrigerator came with the boat and is 20 or more years old, and never has needed any maintenance or repairs. So, why not use a refrigerator/freezer? I cannot think of a valid reason to go without this convenience.

I guess if you really wanted to go native, you could cook using a bucket filled with sand and burn sticks in the cockpit, but I personally, would rather use my propane gas stove and oven. I could eventually get to where I wanted to go without a motor, but I kinda like the safety and convenience of having that aging A4 beneath the cockpit and in good running condition. 

Sure, Brent, there are lots of things we could do without, but why be without if it's not necessary and not a drain on your expenses? I could do without my GPS/Plotter/Depth Finder and go with a sextant, paper charts and compass. Hey that GPS draws power from the batteries - but I just seem to feel safer and it's very convenient to have it keeping accurate, minute by minute, second by second, track of where I'm going, where I've been and where's I'm at. Cruising is supposed to be fun, and when it becomes work, I'll get rid of the boat and find another way to have fun - maybe hang gliding from Killdevil Hill. Nah, I've already done that at Kitty Hawk, and I have my Hang Gliding Certificate hanging on my office wall.

I hope you're not offended by this, but there are some things where we tend to differ in opinion. You have your opinions and experiences, and I have mine. I only offer my first-hand experiences on this thread so others can benefit from them. I've been boating for more than a half-century, but guess what, I'm constantly learning new and exciting things. When I stop learning, that means my mind has either went to Hell, or I died and no one bothered to tell me. 

All the best,

Gary


----------



## christian.hess

heres a seruious question gary

if you would be planning a round the world trip would you still buy tv dinners out of convencience or other reasons?

I mean cuisine is simply a personal preference...if I could have mashed potatoes every day I proabably would but seriously you adapt along the way

when voyaging its almost impossible to maintain the same cuisine you left with

for example in asia we started using a lot of good quick soups and sauces and started eating very fresh greens simply addded to a fish stocl or boiullon

in india and sri lanka it was all about spices and curries...coconut rice

in central america its all about bananas, plantains, beans, rice..

in europe break out the cheese and wine

I guess this is a serious question and jab at the same time...would you really pop out a tv dinner in 

PARADISE?

I think your gut will really tell you

I say this cause Its still clear as day to me 13 years after

we were arriving in fatu hiva...after crossing from galapagos...

and we saw a us flagged boat coming in soon after our arrival

and guess what I smelled off in the distance?

FREAKING MICROWAVE POPCORN! the wife was out on deck chomping on a big ole bowl of popcorn waving at us to come on by...

my captain knew them and befriended them so it was funny to him too....

I love popcorn btw

I just thought this was funny...


----------



## JonEisberg

travlineasy said:


> Another subject that helped me keep my sanity while alone for nearly two months cruising was Internet connection. I purchased a $29 external USB antenna for my laptop and was able to connect with unsecured ISPs from distances to 7 miles when I placed the antenna on the cabin top.
> 
> Gary


_SEVEN MILES ???_ Hmmm, you sure about that?

Hell, Gary - If I were you, I'b buy every single one of those $29 antennas I could find, and start flogging them on eBay @ $500 a pop...


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## Capt Len

Lots of ways of packing aboard the 'needed' victuals .When Irving Johnson on the Yankee scheduled a crew switch in some place like Suva the cases of Skippys were awaiting dockside. When the reefer failed big time.,it was steaks for a week and then plain rice with maybe a fresh fish. Scaled down to the level of lesser mortals there may be a message here.


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## travlin-easy

I have eaten TV dinners in Paradise - didn't bother me a bit. Now, I'm too damned old to be thinking about circumnavigation, and having visited more than 100 countries in my life, I think I'll stay on this side of the pond where I feel most comfortable. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I'm not adventurous, I just have seen a lot more than the vast majority of folks ever dreamed of seeing. I ate things that made me wonder why I ate them, and sometimes, what it was that I was eating, which is scary. Now, I've never been to Sri Lanka, but I have been to Christmas Island, Australia, New Zealand, Cuba, Mexico, nearly all of the major islands in the Bahama and BVI chain, Rio, most of Europe, Greenland, Iceland, nearly every Canadian province, Japan, Guam, the Philippines, Korea, Alaska, The Azores, Grand Canary Island, and a lot more, but I never made it to India, Hong Kong, Bermuda or Hawaii. I've wolfed down native foods in all those places, got some nasty cases of food poisoning that I thought would kill me and I'm sure I've eaten my fair share of bugs in rice and bean dishes. 

I guess I must be a bit spoiled by having a nice, old boat with all those luxuries aboard. I don't need to rough it and really don't want to anymore. I've done that more than I want to admit, like elk hunting in the Idaho high country 50 miles from the nearest paved road, living in a tent, eating beans and mule deer steaks for three weeks, and damned near freezing to death when temperatures dipped well below zero a couple times a week. Nah, not for me. I'll take fillet mignon, TV dinners, canned beef stew, that kind of thing and do just fine, even on a $500 a month budget.

I, personally, don't consider refrigeration, TV, internet access, hot and cold running water, shower, propane stove and frozen dinners a pain in the ass, as Brent says. Sure, they're not necessities, but those things really make cruising a lot more fun. Provisioning shouldn't be work, it should be no more difficult that going to the grocery store at home. For me, cruising is not an endurance test, it's just a fun way of getting from point "A" to point "B" and enjoying every minute of it. Now, if point "B" is on the other side of the globe, and I'm going to be at sea without landfall for three months, then I would just take more stuff than usual, but I don't think I would change much. I would still haul those canned goods and TV dinners with me, at least till they ran out. Then I would be boiling rice and beans. 

Cheers,

Gary


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## travlin-easy

John, the company that I purchased the antenna from claimed up to 9 miles, but I never was able to make it work any greater than 7 miles. Most places in the ICW, were within 5 miles. There is an Internet Access company that says they have full access the entire length of the east coast of the United States and out to 10 miles offshore. I don't know if that is the case because I never tried to access the Internet while offshore. I'll see if I can find the site where I purchased my antenna and provide the link if you're interested.

Gary


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## travlin-easy

Chris, one of the things I've always been good at is catching fish, all species of fish. Most species, even lion fish, are edible. Unfortunately, when you're beyond the offshore canyons, finding fish is nearly impossible because there is no structure to hold a food source for them, mainly smaller species of fish. Once in a while, you may get lucky and stumble across some Sargasso Grass that's 500 or more miles offshore, and if the patch of grass is large enough, you will likely find dolphinfish beneath it. They're pretty each to catch and damned good eating. But, you need some sort of refrigeration to keep them reasonably fresh. They can be salted, but to me, salted fish is not fit for human consumption. I know, but opinions vary on this as well. Even bluefin and yellowfin tuna are near shore species, often within 50 miles or less from shore - that's where they breed and find food. Same holds true with most sharks.

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## guitarguy56

travlineasy said:


> Chris, one of the things I've always been good at is catching fish, all species of fish. Most species, even lion fish, are edible. Unfortunately, when you're beyond the offshore canyons, finding fish is nearly impossible because there is no structure to hold a food source for them, mainly smaller species of fish. Once in a while, you may get lucky and stumble across some Sargasso Grass that's 500 or more miles offshore, and if the patch of grass is large enough, you will likely find dolphinfish beneath it. They're pretty each to catch and damned good eating. But, you need some sort of refrigeration to keep them reasonably fresh. They can be salted, but to me, salted fish is not fit for human consumption. I know, but opinions vary on this as well. Even bluefin and yellowfin tuna are near shore species, often within 50 miles or less from shore - that's where they breed and find food. Same holds true with most sharks.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Gary... I enjoy reading your many stories and you tell it with such humor with your knowledgeable many years of cruising. I can only hope to cruise in this manner later when it's my time... I'm sure you'll be a centenarian and still cruising... sometimes living a simple lifestyle is all that is needed... other than the booz and the young women that'll kill ya  ... I think you're livin' the lifestyle we all wish we could be doing. Looking forward to reading some more humorous cruising and fishing stories.


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## wind_magic

travlineasy said:


> I, personally, don't consider refrigeration, TV, internet access, hot and cold running water, shower, propane stove and frozen dinners a pain in the ass, as Brent says.


Many people would say the same about having a workshop to do projects in, air conditioning, chest freezer, and room to ride their horses ... I think it is all what you become used to living with (and without).

Living without refrigeration and television isn't any great hardship.


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## Omatako

wind_magic said:


> Living without refrigeration and television isn't any great hardship.


But then again neither is living with it. It just makes some things more enjoyable - like cold drinks. Not a necessity but nice nevertheless.


----------



## MikeOReilly

I've learned/am learning a lot from Gary. What he's doing is inspirational, and gives me hope for my future. He's out there doing it his way, and he's been a constant positive contributor here. He's never said, "_my way is the only way_", or "_it can't be done your way_." He's openly sharing his experiences and his choices.

All I can say is "thank you" Gary.
:thewave:


----------



## killarney_sailor

travlineasy said:


> ...Yeah, I know you guys seem to like real eggs, and you can store them in the bilge if coated in Vaseline or some other grease. The Egg Beaters, though, don't take up much space, they come in a variety of flavors, tex/mex, cheese omelet, and others - all of which taste really good. They last for months when refrigerated,


It has been our experience that you do not need to vaseline eggs os store them in the bilge or vaseline them. We bought 3 flats of 30 each in Cape Town and just stored them in a cupboard. One went bad in two months in very warm weather with water temperatures as high as 34C. The only precaution we took was to break the egg into a small bowl to make sure it was OK rather than breaking it directly into whatever recipe was happening. Towards the end of the time the yolks were starting to stick to the shells so we might have turned the flats from time to time.

Key thing with eggs is that you want to buy ones that have never been refrigerated. This is much easier than it sounds because in almost all of the world eggs, even in big supermarkets, are not refrigerated.

Some of the discussions here make it sound like you are provisioning for months at a time. This is true only if there are certain favourite products you can't live without. There are people living almost everywhere you go and they actually do eat, so there are stores and markets. The only questions are what things are available and what the prices are. We were even able to pay terrific fruits and veg on Pitcairn Island (popn 64). We could have bought packaged foods too but didn't need them (stores on Easter Island and really big stores in Panama) and they were very expensive. There are some places (e.g. US, St. Marten, Panama, Australia, and South Africa) where you want to buy staples like flour, rice, cooking oil, beer, etc not because you can't buy them elsewhere, just because they are much cheaper. For example, in Panama City there is a company which I think might be owned by Costco where 10 kg of rice might be 1/4 the price it is in the Galapagos.


----------



## MikeOReilly

killarney_sailor said:


> There are some places (e.g. US, St. Marten, Panama, Australia, and South Africa) where you want to buy staples like flour, rice, cooking oil, beer, etc not because you can't buy them elsewhere, just because they are much cheaper. For example, in Panama City there is a company which I think might be owned by Costco where 10 kg of rice might be 1/4 the price it is in the Galapagos.


I've often heard it said that people eat everywhere, so don't worry about stocking months and months of food at a time. But doesn't this mean you're likely spending more marina time, and probably not getting the best price on items (not buying food in-season, for example). I'm curious to hear if anyone has been able to take advantage of bulk buying when certain products become in-season. Here I'm thinking of fresh veggies/fruits mostly.

Buying cheap and in bulk is going to be key to our frugal cruising plans. I'd love to hear from others, especially those cruising the east coast from NFLD to the Bahamas, where are the cheap places to re-stock.


----------



## christian.hess

travlineasy said:


> Chris, one of the things I've always been good at is catching fish, all species of fish. Most species, even lion fish, are edible. Unfortunately, when you're beyond the offshore canyons, finding fish is nearly impossible because there is no structure to hold a food source for them, mainly smaller species of fish. Once in a while, you may get lucky and stumble across some Sargasso Grass that's 500 or more miles offshore, and if the patch of grass is large enough, you will likely find dolphinfish beneath it. They're pretty each to catch and damned good eating. But, you need some sort of refrigeration to keep them reasonably fresh. They can be salted, but to me, salted fish is not fit for human consumption. I know, but opinions vary on this as well. Even bluefin and yellowfin tuna are near shore species, often within 50 miles or less from shore - that's where they breed and find food. Same holds true with most sharks.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Im a huge fan of fishing and spearfishing sans tanks...natural style, octopus, lobster, clams, conch etc...

it was a huge part of my previous cruising lifestyle and will be again hopefully soon

my thoughts came from a cooks point of view as well but I understand you completely...

see ya around


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## Killick

Woohoo! I just finished reading all 1331 posts! Do I get a hat? 

This is my favorite cruising topic - the desire to make a luxury hobby like sailing into a journey of personal asceticism and deprivation. :laugher The psychology of it fascinating. Czar Nicholas' children slept on military cots because he thought it was good for them, but they had a sterling silver bath tub.

For me, I don't particularly like most people (there are lots of exceptions), and I want to be able to flip off straight society and disappear over the horizon if I want to. This requires either inheriting money, or selling some portion of your life in exchange for it. Being able to cruise as economically as is commensurate with basic human comfort (which we all define differently) is an essential part of that calculus, and it's really fascinating to ponder questions like this one:

1). electric lights and gadgets are great to have so
2). we will wire the boat and have batteries so
3). we need solar panels and an engine but
4). these are expensive and present a maintenance issue and drag down our time and our finances. So...
5). we chuck all that and go native with kerosene lamps and no engine but
6). then we have the cost and danger of kerosene as opposed to free sunlight and
7). the inconvenience of doldrums and windless days and
8). we lose the navigational advances of the last 50 years which
9). we did without for a long time except that
10). it was dangerous and we died a lot so we got smart and wired our boats so we could see what we were doing and where we were on the ocean so...(go back to number 1).

And it's like that with so many issues on board. Really interesting logic problems that defy easy answers.

For me, I think society wants to keep me tethered to the systems that allow them to charge me money for things, and to keep me addicted to the ease and comfort of computer technology and all that comes with that. Modern society becomes in effect the drug pusher on the street corner - always there, grinning, with that shiny little plastic bag of feel-good stuff that we _so badly need_...just this one last time...then we'll quit...honest...

This keeps me weaker and more dependent than I would be naturally, and I reject that with my whole soul. So for me, it's a deep moral and ethical statement to go either one way or the other on these seemingly silly questions (electric or manual anchor windlass? "Who cares?" cries the studio audience...) which in fact tells everyone a great deal about who you are.

So in short, this is important stuff. Far more important than how to live comfortably on a large budget - how to live "fully" on a small one begins to approach the meaning of life.


----------



## christian.hess

damn...that was intense...

im getting the sailing bug big time again...I need to space out on some beach looking at the horizon not at $$ bills and all things material

its hard, with a newborn everything is different now and all related to him but I need to show my wife and kid that there is a meaning to life, there is a world out ther to grab and that it CAN be done

but as it is right now Im in the vortex of modern society...spiralling uncontrollably in a never ending plus and minus equation of life...

anywhoo

glad you read the whole thread...if you stop by el salvador on a cruise....a nice cold one on me and a happy meal at the restauarnt

cheers


----------



## travlin-easy

Killick,

For the above post you not only get the hat, but the tee shirt as well. Love your sense of humor.

Gary


----------



## Killick

travlineasy said:


> Killick,
> 
> For the above post you not only get the hat, but the tee shirt as well. Love your sense of humor.
> 
> Gary


Thanks Gary - make it extra large.  I also liked your posts on blood lipids and heart disease. I'm in family practice and we don't really know which way the wind is blowing on this one. Lies, damn lies, and medical studies. 

Which is why we should all live minimally and catch big fish and wash them down with lots of red wine. Oh no...swells coming...uke


----------



## killarney_sailor

MikeOReilly said:


> I've often heard it said that people eat everywhere, so don't worry about stocking months and months of food at a time. But doesn't this mean you're likely spending more marina time, and probably not getting the best price on items (not buying food in-season, for example). I'm curious to hear if anyone has been able to take advantage of bulk buying when certain products become in-season. Here I'm thinking of fresh veggies/fruits mostly.
> 
> Buying cheap and in bulk is going to be key to our frugal cruising plans. I'd love to hear from others, especially those cruising the east coast from NFLD to the Bahamas, where are the cheap places to re-stock.


I think you will find that provisioning along the east coast is pretty much what you are used to at home. One consideration is that shopping is often not with in walking distance of the boat, so it is handy to find out where there are good stores that are handy. Really good example, there is a decent supermarket right where the Erie Canal empties into the Hudson River north of Albany. They even have a dock to tie up at, so no cab costs or car rental costs. Along the canal and river you are tied up or anchored in places that are far from the suburbs where most of the shopping is - and bus service is often non-existent.

We have not found that shopping fairly frequently requires marina time. There are dinghy docks or beaches you can pull your dink onto just about everywhere. This gets us back to where is the local supermarket or produce market.

For cheap shopping it just depends. We think that sales really matter whether it for in season veg or a loss leader on peanut butter. Also, you buy where products are cheap. In Australia wine was cheap but beer and especially booze was very expensive so we started drinking more wine. In most of the Caribbean wine is expensive and liquor, especially rum, is cheap. If you buy too much stuff in bulk you will quickly run out of space I think. BTW, we have not met anyone who buys in bulk seasonally, perhaps this may be because in warmer places they grow crops all year.


----------



## mrhoneydew

Killick said:


> Woohoo! I just finished reading all 1331 posts! Do I get a hat?
> 
> This is my favorite cruising topic - the desire to make a luxury hobby like sailing into a journey of personal asceticism and deprivation. :laugher The psychology of it fascinating. Czar Nicholas' children slept on military cots because he thought it was good for them, but they had a sterling silver bath tub.
> 
> For me, I don't particularly like most people (there are lots of exceptions), and I want to be able to flip off straight society and disappear over the horizon if I want to. This requires either inheriting money, or selling some portion of your life in exchange for it. Being able to cruise as economically as is commensurate with basic human comfort (which we all define differently) is an essential part of that calculus, and it's really fascinating to ponder questions like this one:
> 
> 1). electric lights and gadgets are great to have so
> 2). we will wire the boat and have batteries so
> 3). we need solar panels and an engine but
> 4). these are expensive and present a maintenance issue and drag down our time and our finances. So...
> 5). we chuck all that and go native with kerosene lamps and no engine but
> 6). then we have the cost and danger of kerosene as opposed to free sunlight and
> 7). the inconvenience of doldrums and windless days and
> 8). we lose the navigational advances of the last 50 years which
> 9). we did without for a long time except that
> 10). it was dangerous and we died a lot so we got smart and wired our boats so we could see what we were doing and where we were on the ocean so...(go back to number 1).
> 
> And it's like that with so many issues on board. Really interesting logic problems that defy easy answers.
> 
> For me, I think society wants to keep me tethered to the systems that allow them to charge me money for things, and to keep me addicted to the ease and comfort of computer technology and all that comes with that. Modern society becomes in effect the drug pusher on the street corner - always there, grinning, with that shiny little plastic bag of feel-good stuff that we _so badly need_...just this one last time...then we'll quit...honest...
> 
> This keeps me weaker and more dependent than I would be naturally, and I reject that with my whole soul. So for me, it's a deep moral and ethical statement to go either one way or the other on these seemingly silly questions (electric or manual anchor windlass? "Who cares?" cries the studio audience...) which in fact tells everyone a great deal about who you are.
> 
> So in short, this is important stuff. Far more important than how to live comfortably on a large budget - how to live "fully" on a small one begins to approach the meaning of life.


Wow, Killick. Great post! As much as I truly love the insights about various systems/topics on this thread, the "reality check" posts are among my favorites.  Unfortunately, as much as I would like to give you one, there is no hat for reading through. Even if there was it would just be some old thing I have lying around. Buying new would cost... and then there are printing costs to consider... we would have to pay a designer... and in any case there would be postage costs... So I hope you can be satisfied with a simple: :thewave:

Beyond that, I can totally appreciate the Patrick O'Brian quote and handle! I am getting ready to haul out next month and do a bunch of work. The buddy who introduced me to sailing and who has been with me every step of the way will be helping. As a token of gratitude for everything he has done for me I bought him the complete combined volume set of 20 (+1) Aubrey/Maturin novels as a thank you for everything. Well worth the expenditure (though I got it on eBay for less than half the price of the link below). 

Complete Aubrey/Maturin Novels by Patrick O'Brian | 9780393060119 | Hardcover | Barnes & Noble

Thanks for contributing.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Killick said:


> Woohoo! I just finished reading all 1331 posts! Do I get a hat?


I'm wavering between sending accolades, or simply being worried for your sanity Killick. Great to have you on board, either way .



Killick said:


> For me, I think society wants to keep me tethered to the systems that allow them to charge me money for things, and to keep me addicted to the ease and comfort of computer technology and all that comes with that. Modern society becomes in effect the drug pusher on the street corner - always there, grinning, with that shiny little plastic bag of feel-good stuff that we _so badly need_...just this one last time...then we'll quit...honest...
> 
> This keeps me weaker and more dependent than I would be naturally, and I reject that with my whole soul. So for me, it's a deep moral and ethical statement to go either one way or the other on these seemingly silly questions (electric or manual anchor windlass? "Who cares?" cries the studio audience...) which in fact tells everyone a great deal about who you are.
> 
> So in short, this is important stuff. Far more important than how to live comfortably on a large budget - how to live "fully" on a small one begins to approach the meaning of life.


For the sake of my fellow thread participants, I try not to stare too far into my own navel, but I am completely with you here. Seduction is core to the functioning of our modern western societies. Our capitalist economies depend on keeping the peasants entertained, distracted, and solidly anchored to the treadmills of success, comfort and insatiable need. My partner and I are leaving, in large part, to see if we can put further distance between ourselves and the increasing insanity that is modern Canadian life.

I'm under no illusions that we can step completely away from it all, and I'm well aware of my own hypocrisy and my limitations. But like some here on this thread, we're going to actively cease to be part of the problems we see all around us.


----------



## wind_magic

MikeOReilly said:


> I've often heard it said that people eat everywhere, so don't worry about stocking months and months of food at a time. But doesn't this mean you're likely spending more marina time, and probably not getting the best price on items (not buying food in-season, for example). I'm curious to hear if anyone has been able to take advantage of bulk buying when certain products become in-season. Here I'm thinking of fresh veggies/fruits mostly.
> 
> Buying cheap and in bulk is going to be key to our frugal cruising plans. I'd love to hear from others, especially those cruising the east coast from NFLD to the Bahamas, where are the cheap places to re-stock.


MikeO, I think you'll be glad you stored huge quantities of food you actually eat and use, but a lot of people make the mistake when they start storing food of storing food they don't actually eat, food they intend to use in a recipe "someday", etc. If you track what you actually eat and then go out and get more of that then I think you'll be doing okay.

Related to the above, I think it is also important to go through your store and get rid of the mistakes you made on a regular basis. What were you thinking when you bought that [whatever food you don't like to eat] at the grocery store just because it was on sale ? Trade it to someone else for something and get rid of it, or make yourself eat it so you'll remember next time not to buy it.

Some foods and other consumables you'll never regret having "too much" of. You probably won't ever look into your storage area and wish you had less paper towels, toilet paper, or peanut butter, for example.

Great post Killick!


----------



## guitarguy56

Killick said:


> Woohoo! I just finished reading all 1331 posts! Do I get a hat?
> 
> This is my favorite cruising topic - the desire to make a luxury hobby like sailing into a journey of personal asceticism and deprivation. :laugher The psychology of it fascinating. Czar Nicholas' children slept on military cots because he thought it was good for them, but they had a sterling silver bath tub.
> 
> For me, I don't particularly like most people (there are lots of exceptions), and I want to be able to flip off straight society and disappear over the horizon if I want to. This requires either inheriting money, or selling some portion of your life in exchange for it. Being able to cruise as economically as is commensurate with basic human comfort (which we all define differently) is an essential part of that calculus, and it's really fascinating to ponder questions like this one:
> 
> 1). electric lights and gadgets are great to have so
> 2). we will wire the boat and have batteries so
> 3). we need solar panels and an engine but
> 4). these are expensive and present a maintenance issue and drag down our time and our finances. So...
> 5). we chuck all that and go native with kerosene lamps and no engine but
> 6). then we have the cost and danger of kerosene as opposed to free sunlight and
> 7). the inconvenience of doldrums and windless days and
> 8). we lose the navigational advances of the last 50 years which
> 9). we did without for a long time except that
> 10). it was dangerous and we died a lot so we got smart and wired our boats so we could see what we were doing and where we were on the ocean so...(go back to number 1).
> 
> And it's like that with so many issues on board. Really interesting logic problems that defy easy answers.
> 
> For me, I think society wants to keep me tethered to the systems that allow them to charge me money for things, and to keep me addicted to the ease and comfort of computer technology and all that comes with that. Modern society becomes in effect the drug pusher on the street corner - always there, grinning, with that shiny little plastic bag of feel-good stuff that we _so badly need_...just this one last time...then we'll quit...honest...
> 
> This keeps me weaker and more dependent than I would be naturally, and I reject that with my whole soul. So for me, it's a deep moral and ethical statement to go either one way or the other on these seemingly silly questions (electric or manual anchor windlass? "Who cares?" cries the studio audience...) which in fact tells everyone a great deal about who you are.
> 
> So in short, this is important stuff. Far more important than how to live comfortably on a large budget - how to live "fully" on a small one begins to approach the meaning of life.


I'm still keeping the tears in... 

Well said Killick... many times we think owning the latest toys will get us to where we want to go but many of us are not crossing any big oceans and even though we need certain 'electronic gadgets' to get us where we want to go nothing says also we could live without them as well. Every electronic gadget has a manual mechanical equivalent which is how many sailors in the past had to deal with on their many voyages... it is as you say we are tied to these electronic toys as a means of their economic/monitoring of us and making sure we are still part of their 'system'.


----------



## JonEisberg

Don0190 said:


> I don't know why a watermaker is out of the question any more than AIS/radar etc as I thought the rules were that it doesn't apply if you get it while still working.


Well, I haven't quite figured out precisely what "the rules" are in regards to what constitutes our definition of Frugal Cruising yet... 

However, I just don't see many people equipping their boats to the hilt with an array of expensive gear initially, then heading out and cruising on a bare-bones budget... Perhaps it happens, but I sure don't see it very often...

People on larger, tricked-out boats just don't seem to live that way... When they drop the hook and head ashore, it's not very likely they're gonna be doing so by rowing a Nutshell pram, chances are it will be in a large RIB with an engine that gets them up on a plane... when you consider the substantial initial investment that the purchase of a watermaker represents, then add on the costs of supporting its use, whether it be engine-driven, or powered by large solar arrays, or wind or hydro generators, I simply think very few cruisers who are targeting going on a minimalist budget are likely to spend a ton of money before taking off, and then flip a switch transforming them into some sort of ascetic mode... People who aim to cruise on something like $6K/year, seem highly unlikely to blow an entire year's budget on equipment they don't need to begin with, seems to me...



Don0190 said:


> Watermakers are just like refrigeration in that they work fine and last a long time if you take care of them.


Well, it's been a while since I've seen an SSCA Equipment survey, but I'm not sure that's really supported by real-world evidence... Despite their overall reliability, I'd have to rate watermakers and refrigeration as 2 of the more problematic/high maintenance items one can put on a small boat, and I've gotten to the point where I NEVER even consider using a watermaker on any boat I'm delivering... And, in my casual/anecdotal observation, I'd have to put watermakers at the top of the list of cruising equipment which keeps cruisers sitting in some place like Nassau, or Georgetown, waiting for some part or spare to be shipped in...


----------



## MikeOReilly

wind_magic said:


> MikeO, I think you'll be glad you stored huge quantities of food you actually eat and use, but a lot of people make the mistake when they start storing food of storing food they don't actually eat, food they intend to use in a recipe "someday", etc. If you track what you actually eat and then go out and get more of that then I think you'll be doing okay.


Thanks wind_magic. That's a good point. We're stocking the food we currently eat: veggies, fruits and some meat. In fact, my pattern is simply to buy extra when we're shopping now (especially for stuff that goes on sale). I'm drying the excess.


----------



## Don L

I'm not interested in the whether a watermaker is needed or not as there are lots of threads for that. But the only real reasons to not have a watermaker is cost and space. But you can have a water maker for $2k so the price isn't a huge thing in the big picture. Especially when compared to other things people are spending more money on.


----------



## MarcHall

Don0190 said:


> I'm not interested in the whether a watermaker is needed or not as there are lots of threads for that. But the only real reasons to not have a watermaker is cost and space. But you can have a water maker for $2k so the price isn't a huge thing in the big picture. Especially when compared to other things people are spending more money on.


Cost and space ....... and maintenance of unit, energy to drive it ->solar panels, wind generators, larger alternator on the engine. Listening to the unit run all day, listening to the wind generator or engine running if they are the energy source. Maintenance of the energy source. Jerry jugging fuel to the boat if the engine is the source......

I have refrigeration and a water maker on the boat. If I am in place where I need to run the watermaker to provide water it's a huge electric load. With my current array of solar panels I can meet all the energy needs while living aboard the boat....except when I run the water maker. At that I point I have to run the engine at some point.

Marc
Crazy Fish - Maintaining, Upgrading and Sailing a Crealock 37


----------



## wind_magic

MarcHall said:


> Cost and space ....... and maintenance of unit, energy to drive it ->solar panels, wind generators, larger alternator on the engine. Listening to the unit run all day, listening to the wind generator or engine running if they are the energy source. Maintenance of the energy source. Jerry jugging fuel to the boat if the engine is the source......
> 
> I have refrigeration and a water maker on the boat. If I am in place where I need to run the watermaker to provide water it's a huge electric load. With my current array of solar panels I can meet all the energy needs while living aboard the boat....except when I run the water maker. At that I point I have to run the engine at some point.
> 
> Marc
> Crazy Fish - Maintaining, Upgrading and Sailing a Crealock 37


I agree, it is like adding a pet to the boat. It's just a little dog, it doesn't take up much space, you can get them for free at the animal shelter!


----------



## christian.hess

I posted a long time ago on this thread about some guys a couple to be exact who set out on an old columbia 34 for like 2k and set out for the south pacific and were having a ball

also who to make some $$ doing odd jobs

well here is an update on latitude 38 for all those interested

Latitude 38 Changes in Latitudes March 2014

they call themselves ULTRA BUDGETERS jajajaja


----------



## Omatako

JonEisberg said:


> , I simply think very few cruisers who are targeting going on a minimalist budget are likely to spend a ton of money before taking off, and then flip a switch transforming them into some sort of ascetic mode... People who aim to cruise on something like $6K/year, seem highly unlikely to blow an entire year's budget on equipment they don't need to begin with, seems to me...


Jon it's really a matter of timing for many of us and I suspect that you'd be surprised at how many folks will do just that. I'm one of them.

Right now my wife and I have good jobs that earn the money we need to "trick my boat out". So we buy the stuff that we think will endure for the period that we will need it for and, within reason, cost is not a factor,

In a short while (relatively speaking, we've been building towards this for 10 or more years, 2 to go) we will be unemployed with a nest egg that has to last us until we die, augmented by modest pensions and annuities.

So then we will have a lot of life-enhancing gear on the boat that will run for as long as it runs and then get tossed out. None of it represents anything we can't do without but it's nice to have it while you can.

From when we start cruising we will be living on very modest means and any new "luxury" gear is off the agenda. We hopefully will have a little more than $6k a year in our budget but it won't be a lot more. And we will be drinking a lot less beer and fancy wine but what we do drink will be cold. For as long as it lasts.


----------



## christian.hess

and

Latitude 38 Changes in Latitudes March 2014

interview with some young cruisers

http://www.latitude38.com/changes/Changes03-14.html#.UxpecYU9Cu4


----------



## Killick

I can skimp on water, I can light with kerosene, I can row my way into a slip...but I think it would be tough to live without recorded music. I have a mortal lot of music that I can't really see myself doing without for more than a few days at a time. So that right there makes some gizmonics necessary. I think being able to sit alone in a quiet cove, look up at the stars and listen to Son House or Jerry Garcia would justify all the wires the boat could hold.


----------



## travlin-easy

Jon, if you're still following this thread, here's the second cousin of the USB antenna that I purchased last year.When I get back to the boat I'll get the model number of the one I have, but this one is fairly close. Amazon.com : 1000mW 1W 802.11g/n High Gain USB Wireless G / N Long-Rang WiFi Network Adapter - Dongle With Original Alfa 5dBi and 9dBi Rubber Antenna *Strongest on the Market* : Wi Fi Reciever Amplifier : Computers & [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21WEvcyKR%[email protected]@[email protected]@21WEvcyKR%2BL

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## travlin-easy

Jon, if you're still following this thread, here's the second cousin of the USB antenna that I purchased last year.When I get back to the boat I'll get the model number of the one I have, but this one is fairly close. Amazon.com : 1000mW 1W 802.11g/n High Gain USB Wireless G / N Long-Rang WiFi Network Adapter - Dongle With Original Alfa 5dBi and 9dBi Rubber Antenna *Strongest on the Market* : Wi Fi Reciever Amplifier : Computers & [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21WEvcyKR%[email protected]@[email protected]@21WEvcyKR%2BL

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## JonEisberg

travlineasy said:


> Jon, if you're still following this thread, here's the second cousin of the USB antenna that I purchased last year.When I get back to the boat I'll get the model number of the one I have, but this one is fairly close. Amazon.com : 1000mW 1W 802.11g/n High Gain USB Wireless G / N Long-Rang WiFi Network Adapter - Dongle With Original Alfa 5dBi and 9dBi Rubber Antenna *Strongest on the Market* : Wi Fi Reciever Amplifier : Computers & Accessories
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Appreciate that, Gary - but I'm good... I've used a couple of different antennas over the years, for the last several I've gone with the one visible hanging on the port shrouds... It's weather-proof, and I can keep updating the original guts of the unit from ALFA with the latest, I have a Bear Extender inside the box now...

I've had pretty good luck so far, but I don't think I've come close to scoring a signal from 7 miles off, yet...


----------



## JonEisberg

Omatako said:


> Jon it's really a matter of timing for many of us and I suspect that you'd be surprised at how many folks will do just that. I'm one of them.
> 
> Right now my wife and I have good jobs that earn the money we need to "trick my boat out". So we buy the stuff that we think will endure for the period that we will need it for and, within reason, cost is not a factor,
> 
> In a short while (relatively speaking, we've been building towards this for 10 or more years, 2 to go) we will be unemployed with a nest egg that has to last us until we die, augmented by modest pensions and annuities.
> 
> So then we will have a lot of life-enhancing gear on the boat that will run for as long as it runs and then get tossed out. None of it represents anything we can't do without but it's nice to have it while you can.
> 
> From when we start cruising we will be living on very modest means and any new "luxury" gear is off the agenda. We hopefully will have a little more than $6k a year in our budget but it won't be a lot more. And we will be drinking a lot less beer and fancy wine but what we do drink will be cold. For as long as it lasts.


Make no mistake, I think that's a very sound strategy. I take a similar view, myself, my boat is fairly tricked-out for one of its size, and I'm a firm believer in investing in quality when it comes to essential gear like sails, and maintenance... But once I get underway, especially if I'm sailing solo, I generally go onto a fairly strict budgetary 'diet', with an occasional splurge here and there...

However, if you're seeing "many" people going that way, that might be a bit more of an example of your more typical Kiwi attributes toward common sense and practicality  I can really only speak to what I see along the Atlantic coast of North America and into the Caribbean, and I simply don't see much evidence of Americans who are able to 'flip the switch' in such a manner, and are out there cruising on bare-bones budgets after having outfitted their boats with lots of expensive, and in many cases high maintenance, doo-dads with the purpose of heightening their level of 'comfort' afloat...

In my observation, the majority of frugal (American) cruisers doing it in the style you describe, are singlehanders... So many couples out there are examples of a somewhat less enthusiastic 'Reluctant Partner' being dragged along, and keeping Mama happy aboard a small sailing yacht is generally gonna involve spending a bit more money...  Young folks tend to be the exception to that rule, but they still remain a pretty small percentage of the overally sample size I'm running into...


----------



## travlin-easy

I agree, Jon. I'm fairly confident that if my wife spent a couple months on the boat we would be eating in restaurants more and staying in marinas more than being on the hook. She would never live aboard this boat. Now, if I had something in the 65 to 70-foot category, something fairly new, it would be a different story I suspect. Women, for the most part, tend to enjoy luxury a lot more than guys out there single handing a sailboat. I know single guys that live aboard 26-footers and don't run out of room. Anything less than 31 for a lady is just too small. 

Gary


----------



## MikeOReilly

JonEisberg said:


> Make no mistake, I think that's a very sound strategy. I take a similar view, myself, my boat is fairly tricked-out for one of its size, and I'm a firm believer in investing in quality when it comes to essential gear like sails, and maintenance... But once I get underway, especially if I'm sailing solo, I generally go onto a fairly strict budgetary 'diet', with an occasional splurge here and there...


This is the path we're on. And I'm happy to say the other half of "we" is as fully engaged in our cruising and our coming frugal(er) lifestyle. I don't know if we will be successful. We've certainly lived on a lot less than we do right now, and both enjoy our extended wilderness travels where frugality is a necessity. Can we make cruising a sustainable life -- I don't know, which is why I enjoy this thread ... I'm learning a lot.

The one nod to luxury we've made is moving to our current Big Boat: 36' 9" LOA, 12' beam. It's still pretty small compared to what most people go with these days, but it's larger than many of my fellow frugal cruisers here.


----------



## christian.hess

youre as beamy as me! jajaja I think mid 30s is a great manageable size for a couple


----------



## travlin-easy

Mike, if you decide to come down through Chesapeake Bay, PM or email me and we'll get together. The boat's bar is fully stocked, the music is free and we have a lot of fun down here when the weather's warm.

Gary


----------



## MikeOReilly

travlineasy said:


> Mike, if you decide to come down through Chesapeake Bay, PM or email me and we'll get together. The boat's bar is fully stocked, the music is free and we have a lot of fun down here when the weather's warm.


That's very kind of you Gary. I'd absolutely love to meet up with you, raise a few pints, and sing till the sun rises. I can carry a descent tune myself, and play a mean bodhran.

Unfortunately our plans don't see us passing through the Chesapeake until 2016 at the earliest. At this point we're planning to get down to Lake Ontario this season, then head out the St. Lawrence in 2015. If money and interest hold out we'll spend time tooddling around the Maritimes and Newfoundland. But we'll get down your way eventually.

Keep that beer chilled!


----------



## smurphny

To be or not to be on the boat: a constant question I have this compelling urge to get back on the boat after being aboard since last November BUT it is really nice to have all the amenities of home. Things one takes for granted at home are not so easy to come by on the boat: clean, cold water, a comfortable chair, big TV, laundry (with a dryer that actually DRIES clothes, fridge and freezer space, a comfortable place to sleep, a cooktop with 4 burners and oven that light right up, a flush toilet...etc. Also, not having to dodge tornadoes, thunderstorms nor worrying about whether my or someone else's anchor will pull out during the night are benefits of dry land. So just what is it that draws us to that cave in the water?


----------



## mrhoneydew

smurphny said:


> To be or not to be on the boat: a constant question I have this compelling urge to get back on the boat after being aboard since last November BUT it is really nice to have all the amenities of home. Things one takes for granted at home are not so easy to come by on the boat: clean, cold water, a comfortable chair, big TV, laundry (with a dryer that actually DRIES clothes, fridge and freezer space, a comfortable place to sleep, a cooktop with 4 burners and oven that light right up, a flush toilet...etc. Also, not having to dodge tornadoes, thunderstorms nor worrying about whether my or someone else's anchor will pull out during the night are benefits of dry land. So just what is it that draws us to that cave in the water?


Hmmm... I dunno... maybe not becoming fat, lazy, and complacent? Living more directly and engaging with the planet rather than sealing ourselves off from it? Just my $.02.


----------



## Omatako

smurphny said:


> Things one takes for granted at home are not so easy to come by on the boat: clean, cold water, a comfortable chair, big TV, laundry (with a dryer that actually DRIES clothes, fridge and freezer space, a comfortable place to sleep, a cooktop with 4 burners and oven that light right up, a flush toilet...etc.


Other than the comfy chair, big TV and the laundry, I have pretty much all of that aboard and can live without those three. But then again I'm in 44ft not 26 or 30 so I get what you're saying. It's back to the old adage - "a yacht should have a foot on the waterline for each year of your age".

Whilst my wife is a keen voyager and real happy on the boat, take away the stuff listed and the enthusiasm level would be somewhat different. Which is why I support the "spend what you can while you can" system.


----------



## killarney_sailor

smurphny said:


> Things one takes for granted at home are not so easy to come by on the boat: clean, cold water, a comfortable chair, big TV, laundry (with a dryer that actually DRIES clothes, fridge and freezer space, a comfortable place to sleep, a cooktop with 4 burners and oven that light right up, a flush toilet...etc.
> 
> We have friends who bought a new St Francis 50 catamaran. The build process began with him buying a recliner that was exactly the same as the one at home and shipping it to South Africa where it was recovered and built into the U-shaped settee on the bridge deck of the boat. As for all the other things you list, they were on the boat too, so there you go.
> 
> Also, not having to dodge tornadoes, thunderstorms nor worrying about whether my or someone else's anchor will pull out during the night are benefits of dry land. So just what is it that draws us to that cave in the water?


Well, if you want we can start an anchor discussion about which kinds let you sleep best. Don't think that has ever been discussed here.


----------



## smurphny

killarney_sailor said:


> Well, if you want we can start an *anchor discussion* about which kinds let you sleep best. Don't think that has ever been discussed here.


Please don't even mention it. Words like CQR, Mantus, or Danforth can lead to mayhem.


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## mrhoneydew

For the budget voyager, what more do you need than a 2 gallon bucket, some concrete, and an eye-bolt?  Have you priced a CQR or a Mantus lately?! Let's not even talk about stainless...

As with many things, if you look around and keep your eyes peeled you can find good deals for the things you need. I picked up a 22lb. plow anchor on clearance from Defender for $55. Works quite nicely with my Columbia 28. With 40ft of chain and 175ft of 1/2" rode I have every confidence in the setup AND I don't need a windlass. Cheap, Easy, Secure, and on budget!


----------



## killarney_sailor

I was KIDDING about the anchor thing. Please don't start.


----------



## MikeOReilly

At the risk of promoting an anchor fight (please ... no), I think this is one area where frugality demands nothing but the best. My approach is to have the biggest new-generation anchor that I can reasonably manage as my bower, with 250' of all chain 3/8" rode. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## mrhoneydew

MikeOReilly said:


> At the risk of promoting an anchor fight (please ... no), I think this is one area where frugality demands nothing but the best.


And... a fitting end to an engaging, informative discussion about anchors. Thank you MikeO and all who participated. Now, moving along... how about making use of those tight spaces for storage? Any economical solutions?


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## wind_magic

mrhoneydew said:


> And... a fitting end to an engaging, informative discussion about anchors. Thank you MikeO and all who participated. Now, moving along... how about making use of those tight spaces for storage? Any economical solutions?




Or how about a discussion about budgeting ...


----------



## Lou452

I would like to have some advice about water and storage Beginning with " A Dry BOAT ? water proof boxes and bags.
They have otter boxes, and an outdoor products box, and a shoreline marine. The last one Shoreline looks like it is the most likely to leak. 
All kinds of bags right down to the thin plastic zip lock bag. Bags can stuff into shapes that a box can not but the box also has its place.
I have saved a few food containers but I am finding once the seal is broken they will leak. I can re-seal but then it is just as hard to access as the first time. 
A test is submerge in 3-5 feet and see if it will leak ?
I do not understand all the books I read. They talk about the boat in poor weather and water coming in everyplace. Then almost everything is a loss. The rice, beans, toilet Paper, clothing . I have had some stuff that was made useless by water. I understand water belongs outside the boat. The word I am looking for is redundancy. If you have two or more ways to keep the water at bay you might have dry food, clothing and gear. 
In the end you need stuff that can get wet and live. Am I on the right Approach ?
Kind Regards, Lou


----------



## travlin-easy

Vacuum sealed food storage bags in Tupperware containers - no leaks, no bugs, lasts forever, or damned close to forever. I had a box of oatmeal on the boat and a bag of oatmeal vacuum sealed in a food storage bag. The stuff in the bag was fine after six months, while the box of oatmeal had mealworms residing in it with two months. 

Tupperware is neat because it's made to vacuum seal. Yeah, it's expensive, but damned, it works great. Now, I didn't have the oatmeal to lower my cholesterol - actually like the taste of oatmeal, especially when I add brown sugar and cinnamon.

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## wind_magic

travlineasy said:


> Now, I didn't have the oatmeal to lower my cholesterol - actually like the taste of oatmeal, especially when I add brown sugar and cinnamon.


Oatmeal is edible with a steak, potatoes, and some chocolate cake.


----------



## aeventyr60

wind_magic said:


> Oatmeal is edible with a steak, potatoes, and some chocolate cake.


Didn't ol Tristan Jones make a oatmeal/porridge combination called "Burgoo" to get him through the lean spots?


----------



## MikeOReilly

Lou452 said:


> I would like to have some advice about water and storage Beginning with " A Dry BOAT ? water proof boxes and bags.


Hi Lou, as Gary suggests, I'm vacuum bagging my reserve food (dried food), and then storing them in plastic sealed containers. We have a collection of tupperware containers, and they are great. I'm also considering purchasing a collection of sealable stackable containers like these:

OXO Good Grips® Rectangular Food Storage Pop Container - BedBathandBeyond.com

The Container Store > Dry Food Vault

We have some large ziplock bags that we've stored linen, but have not been mostly focused on food storage. I might consider sealing clothes that were being stored for a long time.


----------



## killarney_sailor

Mike, those look like good storage boxes, and should be at those prices. We use some much cheaper boxes with latches on the four sides. We found some that are the right size to fit into some lockers under a seat (door on front). They have been great for things like flour and rice. We bought a hand vacuum pump and bags in New Zealand that we use for portions of meat (bought in semi-bulk). It is a good unit but over time the seal on the bags goes and they are not generally available, have to get them online.


----------



## MikeOReilly

killarney_sailor said:


> Mike, those look like good storage boxes, and should be at those prices. We use some much cheaper boxes with latches on the four sides. We found some that are the right size to fit into some lockers under a seat (door on front). They have been great for things like flour and rice. We bought a hand vacuum pump and bags in New Zealand that we use for portions of meat (bought in semi-bulk). It is a good unit but over time the seal on the bags goes and they are not generally available, have to get them online.


Yes, they are rather pricey, but hopefully a one-time cost.

What do (and others) think of something like this for bulk food storage on board. Since they're flexible one should be able to maximize the storage space, and they would shrink as you use the food, so it's not dead space.

Gamma Vittles Vault Airtight SoftStore Pet Food Storage Container | PetOnly.ca


----------



## killarney_sailor

Not a bad idea, although it seems pretty large. I am thinking about the 13" high part and thinking about where I would put it on our 45 footer. We have an immense number of storage locations (more than 100) but relatively few for larger items like this. Fitting in many small containers seems to be what we do most often, although we have tall containers for things like pasta noodles that fit into tall, narrow spaces.

This object reminded me that Lee Valley have a smaller, collapsable container for paint/varnish that could be used for food storage too.


----------



## smurphny

I bought some clear plastic, one gallon, screw-top food containers at Walmart recently. They just happen to fit nicely in my galley storage hatch. I transferred a lot of dry food like oatmeal and flour into them. The plastic is quite heavy-duty and they are cheap.

Mainstays 1-Gal Canister: Kitchen & Dining : Walmart.com


----------



## manatee

MikeOReilly said:


> Hi Lou, as Gary suggests, I'm vacuum bagging my reserve food (dried food), and then storing them in plastic sealed containers. We have a collection of tupperware containers, and they are great. I'm also considering purchasing a collection of sealable stackable containers like these:
> 
> OXO Good Grips® Rectangular Food Storage Pop Container - BedBathandBeyond.com
> 
> The Container Store > Dry Food Vault
> 
> We have some large ziplock bags that we've stored linen, but have not been mostly focused on food storage. I might consider sealing clothes that were being stored for a long time.


 I prefer square containers -- lose less space.

Four Gallon Square Pail (2 Pack) ==> $14.95/2-pack


----------



## MikeOReilly

All great suggestions. KS, is this what you were referring to at Lee Valley:

Collapsible Bottle - Lee Valley Tools


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

MikeOReilly said:


> I'm also considering purchasing a collection of sealable stackable containers like these:
> 
> OXO Good Grips® Rectangular Food Storage Pop Container - BedBathandBeyond.com


I have a couple small rectangular one's on the boat for tea bags and coffee singles. I have a few large square one's at the house for flour, sugar and rice and one's half the size I'm starting to collect for the boat to put in rice, beans or whatever else I come up with.

I like them.


----------



## manatee

Another possible source is a local takeout-food place. One of our nearby Chinese restaurants delivers soup in heavy-duty round pint & quart containers. Their appetizers & entrees are in similar-weight rectangular containers. The lids are really tight -- as a test, I filled some with water & put them on their sides on top of paper towels overnight; not a drop leaked. Great for matches, tea bags, a daily soup-pot worth of rice, orzo, peas, beans, corn, pasta...not bad for free.


----------



## guitarguy56

All great ideas on the food and storage containers. Regarding storing clothes so they too don't smell musty any ideas out there? What I did while redoing my cushions last year I made about a dozen bags with draw strings and insert cedar chips and lavender leaves and put them into small garment bags and then put into stackable storage bins in the v-birth. Clothes stayed fresh but on long voyages what is everyone else doing? This is on a small 25 foot boat so I'm sure others with larger boats have more storage lockers.


----------



## wind_magic

guitarguy56 said:


> All great ideas on the food and storage containers. Regarding storing clothes so they too don't smell musty any ideas out there? What I did while redoing my cushions last year I made about a dozen bags with draw strings and insert cedar chips and lavender leaves and put them into small garment bags and then put into stackable storage bins in the v-birth. Clothes stayed fresh but on long voyages what is everyone else doing? This is on a small 25 foot boat so I'm sure others with larger boats have more storage lockers.


I have read posts here over the years of people using the vacuum garment bags that take out the air to save space and keep them dry.


----------



## travlin-easy

Those vacuum garment bags actually work quite well, especially on fluffy stuff like blankets, pillows, heavy clothing, etc. I saw I guy in Virginia that utilized them for just about everything he carried in the boat. A suitcase full of clothing was vacuum sealed into a bag about three inches thick and slid into a really small place. 

One of the neat things about cruising is you really don't need a lot of clothes changes. Of course, you need a couple weeks underwear and socks, if you wear sock, and in colder areas I wore socks every day. But once you reach the semi tropics, well, formal attire becomes shorts, Hawaiian shirts, sandals, flip flops, and a floppy hat. In the semi tropics and tropics, that's almost like wearing a tux.  

I met a very nice live-aboard couple in Boot Key Harbor, they've been live-aboards for about three years and I asked Lynn, the young lady, how did she adapt to cruising and living aboard. She said "I had a lot of clothes, shoes, and other stuff when we lived on land. Now, I can pack most of my clothes in a couple shoe boxes, and you know what - it feels good to live this way." Lynn and her husband, Jim, were a very nice, down to earth, loving couple, they made everything, including their own sails. Jim was a very skilled craftsman, and Lynn could turn anything into a gourmet meal. I really miss them.

Gary


----------



## guitarguy56

Great and we do that vacuum bagging at home for winter items but on a boat the vacuumed bag would be opened when taking a pair of slacks or polo shirt out then what? It's not like you vacuum it up again... What happens at the laundrymat when you've just washed clothes ashore? So what other precautions are being taken to insure the clothes aren't musty smelling?


----------



## JonEisberg

wind_magic said:


> I have read posts here over the years of people using the vacuum garment bags that take out the air to save space and keep them dry.


Some were even in this very thread, what... maybe 1200 posts ago?


----------



## JonEisberg

guitarguy56 said:


> Great and we do that vacuum bagging at home for winter items but on a boat the vacuumed bag would be opened when taking a pair of slacks or polo shirt out then what? It's not like you vacuum it up again...


Why not? A small portable or cordless vacuum is a pretty handy thing to have aboard...

On a boat, you may as well go wet/dry, this is what I use...


----------



## guitarguy56

JonEisberg said:


> Why not? A small portable or cordless vacuum is a pretty handy thing to have aboard...
> 
> On a boat, you may as well go wet/dry, this is what I use...


I have a small wet vac on the boat when I was sanding the sole to refinish it but never thought it had enough vacuum for bagging purposes. I'll have to try next time I'm on the boat this June.


----------



## guitarguy56

travlineasy said:


> Those vacuum garment bags actually work quite well, especially on fluffy stuff like blankets, pillows, heavy clothing, etc. I saw I guy in Virginia that utilized them for just about everything he carried in the boat. A suitcase full of clothing was vacuum sealed into a bag about three inches thick and slid into a really small place.
> 
> One of the neat things about cruising is you really don't need a lot of clothes changes. Of course, you need a couple weeks underwear and socks, if you wear sock, and in colder areas I wore socks every day. But once you reach the semi tropics, well, formal attire becomes shorts, Hawaiian shirts, sandals, flip flops, and a floppy hat. In the semi tropics and tropics, that's almost like wearing a tux.
> 
> I met a very nice live-aboard couple in Boot Key Harbor, they've been live-aboards for about three years and I asked Lynn, the young lady, how did she adapt to cruising and living aboard. She said "I had a lot of clothes, shoes, and other stuff when we lived on land. Now, I can pack most of my clothes in a couple shoe boxes, and you know what - it feels good to live this way." Lynn and her husband, Jim, were a very nice, down to earth, loving couple, they made everything, including their own sails. Jim was a very skilled craftsman, and Lynn could turn anything into a gourmet meal. I really miss them.
> 
> Gary


Gary what do people do with winter clothes, sweaters, and jackets when they travel from northern places to the southern places for extended periods?


----------



## JonEisberg

guitarguy56 said:


> I have a small wet vac on the boat when I was sanding the sole to refinish it but never thought it had enough vacuum for bagging purposes. I'll have to try next time I'm on the boat this June.


Mine works fine, I think the key is probably having a nozzle that matches the size of the vacuum bag valve, fortunately mine is a perfect match for the bags I use...


----------



## Bene505

Killick said:


> I can skimp on water, I can light with kerosene, I can row my way into a slip...but I think it would be tough to live without recorded music. I have a mortal lot of music that I can't really see myself doing without for more than a few days at a time. So that right there makes some gizmonics necessary. I think being able to sit alone in a quiet cove, look up at the stars and listen to Son House or Jerry Garcia would justify all the wires the boat could hold.


Good post. There's no reason to leave behind decades of recorded music. (Although we may differ slightly on what the best music is. Is there a thread on that?)

The most frugal way to have great music would be an iPod and some headphones, but speakers let everyone enjoy it. I've been looking on eBay for an amp and a speaker upgrade.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## pinayreefer

I've just found this thread and intend to go back and read it all but by skipping to the end I see what I've realized a while back. Some things are smaller and cheaper than they used to be... music being one. I have an mp3 player and splurged on a Bose portable speaker. The amount of music the player holds I would not have been able to afford when I was younger, but by trading what I had with others I've amassed a huge amount of music, and with an inexpensive small solar panel I can keep both the player and speaker juiced up so that idyllic cove, alone with my girl and our music is quite pleasant and inexpensive!


----------



## MikeOReilly

We've been iThingy for years now. We've had a Fusion boat stereo with iPod connection for years now, and have been transferring all our books to iPad formats. This includes as many core manuals and reference books I can find. I love the space saving and some of the benefits of digital books. Of course, there are downsides to going digital, but so far the benefits outweigh the negatives.


----------



## guitarguy56

My marine stereo system has the benefit of a stereo plug in and I just plug my Ipod/Iphone/Ipad/computer into it. I have a pair of high quality bookshelf speakers out of the way hanging from the bulkhead and it just plays beautifully (mind you you're not going to get hi-fi quality due to the acoustics in the cabin) and I can play it in the cockpit with waterproof speakers installed as well. Pretty simple I guess... not a real technological feat for anyone.


----------



## smurphny

I've had an iPod for a long time. The little thing has never been able to hold a charge for long. Left for a couple of weeks, it discharges. I have a lot of other rechargeable gadgets which hold a charge for much longer and don't require seemingly constant hookup to a computer or charger. The other thing I do not like at all about i products in general is the memory hog nature of things like iTunes. A simple upload process for cds would be a lot easier than the marketing-based web screen for iTunes. I have an older, larger Mp3 player which has a much better battery life and very basic upload process.

One device that I use is a standard Walkman to be able to hear radio while at the wheel. It just clips on and with one ear device, it allows hearing external sounds as well as local/international news, etc.


----------



## killarney_sailor

I have enjoyed audiobooks (borrowed from the library on visits home) on an iPod during night watches.


----------



## manatee

killarney_sailor said:


> I have enjoyed audiobooks (borrowed from the library on visits home) on an iPod during night watches.


 *Project Gutenberg* has free audiobooks, and they add new ones all the time.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Since we've veered into useful tools, I'm wondering what people use in their galleys for cooking. I like to cook, but having a good selection of mixing bowls is a challenge in our small galley. I've recently discovered the world of collapsable bowls, which have made a big difference. I can now carry a good selection of bowls, in a fraction of the storage space.










These things are partially made of silicon, and collapse down to 1/3rd their size when not in use. I bought a bunch of these 3 quart mixing bowls, along with a tub and colander last season, and love them. I'll probably be picking up a few more smaller ones before we take off again.

The frugal connection here is that to keep food costs down we need to be cooking on board, so we need functional galleys. So in that vein, what are your galley tools or tips?


----------



## guitarguy56

Mike, last time my wife came up to Seattle to sail on my boat she bought one of these up... they are great as it fits the small sink in the galley and it collapses where it's footprint is very small... she saw it in one of the cooking shows:

Progressive - Collapsible Over-The-Sink Colander - CC-13 - Canada

I like the collapsible handles for handling hot foods like pasta... The price is right too... I use Correlle dishes for all eating as they are almost indestructible... the rest is the usual cookware, since I have an induction oven I use the induction cookware and cast iron pans (skillet flat pan). I use an over the sink dish holder that doubles as a strainer too I bought at K-Mart for under $5.00 that is perfect for sinks that are 15" x 15" sq. Since I have the pressurized water from a holding tank I can rinse everything all at once and allow to dry. I can't do 'oven' baking so I don't carry the usual baking pans, etc. although my next boat hopefully has the full galley and plenty of storage places for spices, etc. The refrig/freezer will be the largest I can get for a boat in the 32-35 range even if I go without other items on the boat.


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

MikeOReilly said:


> Since we've veered into useful tools, I'm wondering what people use in their galleys for cooking. I like to cook, but having a good selection of mixing bowls is a challenge in our small galley. I've recently discovered the world of collapsable bowls, which have made a big difference. I can now carry a good selection of bowls, in a fraction of the storage space.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These things are partially made of silicon, and collapse down to 1/3rd their size when not in use. I bought a bunch of these 3 quart mixing bowls, along with a tub and colander last season, and love them. I'll probably be picking up a few more smaller ones before we take off again.
> 
> The frugal connection here is that to keep food costs down we need to be cooking on board, so we need functional galleys. So in that vein, what are your galley tools or tips?


I found a collapsible colander with a handle and a funnel at the local grocery store. 
















I've seen plenty of larger colanders, bowls and other silicone items like baking pans.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Thanks guys. This collapsable stuff is great. We like it so much we now use them at home as well. I have colander, and those mixing bowls, as well as a larger tub and even a couple of dish drying wracks that we now use all the time at home on land. I was initially doubtful whether the silicon would stand up to daily use, but I'm a believer now.


----------



## GeorgeB

Mike, what does your boat's dish drying rack look like?


----------



## MikeOReilly

GeorgeB said:


> Mike, what does your boat's dish drying rack look like?


We have both of these:

Amazon.com - Progressive International Collapsible Dish Rack - Dish Drying [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@41FdmfY4otL


----------



## Brent Swain

mrhoneydew said:


> For the budget voyager, what more do you need than a 2 gallon bucket, some concrete, and an eye-bolt?  Have you priced a CQR or a Mantus lately?! Let's not even talk about stainless...
> 
> As with many things, if you look around and keep your eyes peeled you can find good deals for the things you need. I picked up a 22lb. plow anchor on clearance from Defender for $55. Works quite nicely with my Columbia 28. With 40ft of chain and 175ft of 1/2" rode I have every confidence in the setup AND I don't need a windlass. Cheap, Easy, Secure, and on budget!


Anchors are easy and cheap to weld up. Learn to weld and build your own, any shape you like.


----------



## Brent Swain

Killick said:


> Thanks Gary - make it extra large.  I also liked your posts on blood lipids and heart disease. I'm in family practice and we don't really know which way the wind is blowing on this one. Lies, damn lies, and medical studies.
> 
> Which is why we should all live minimally and catch big fish and wash them down with lots of red wine. Oh no...swells coming...uke


 In any such health studies, those who pay for the study purchase the results they seek( just like Canada's legal industry). One should always question who paid for the study . They also use shell coporations to hide their trails


----------



## travlin-easy

Brent, in my case, it was practical experience that led me to think there was a big hoax with cholesterol. I spent 15 intense years in cardio-pulmonary medicine, working more hours a week than most people did in two weeks. I've had MY hands inside a lot of chests, I've seen the insides of lots of coronary arteries, I know what percentage of my patients had normal and low cholesterol levels and still suffered with significant cardiovascular disease. No one paid me to make these statements. It what I observed every day of the week for 15 long years. 

Ironically the largest study ever conducted on the correlation between cholesterol and cardiovascular disease wasn't paid for by a drug company. The study was conducted by the World Health Organization, which is an independent agency. They pretty much mimic my findings many years ago. I don't trust drug company studies and never have, and I guess with sound reasoning.

Good Luck,

Gary


----------



## mrhoneydew

Brent Swain said:


> Anchors are easy and cheap to weld up. Learn to weld and build your own, any shape you like.


I can weld a bit but don't have the equipment or a decent space to do it in (at the moment). Somehow I think procuring both is going to be over $55. 

However, on the welding note, I am thinking about a Miller Passport Plus setup. I need to look into it some more, but it is a self-contained MIG outfit that has either a small bottle or can be hooked up to a larger tank and it's the size of a suitcase. It will weld steel, stainless, and aluminum. Combine that with a portable generator and I bet the thing could pay for itself doing repair work for people on the fly. What do you think, Brent?
The Millermatic Passport Plus Offers A Portable MIG Welding Solution for Steel, Stainlessless Steel and Aluminum

Likewise, I am definitely going to get a hookah setup since I have zero lung capacity to dive on a hull with just a snorkel. Yet one more way to earn a bit of cash while out and about. 

12v Electric Hookah DIVING KIT WITH PROMATE REGULATOR


----------



## christian.hess

awesome thoughts honeydoo

In retrospect all I did for odd end jobs(cause I had no tools or equipment) was lots of sanding and varnishing...and going up masts and the like for older couples who didnt like to...

I made a few odd bucks like that especially in panama when I was at pmbc for over a year

if I would of had say a nice portable genny, a welder or specific tools like a nice sewing machine for quick jobs on canvas and sails I would of been a much happier camper! jajaja

a hookah setup? man Im jelous that would of scored me even more $$$

remember I a while back I posted something about odd jobs and the like and ways to make money

if you have a partner or lady that likes to make ornaments, jewelry, necklaces whatever its a great way to keep busy on passages but its also a great way to make a few $$$ here and there for the cash bin....most other cruisers are happy to buy stuff off you or trade 

there is a lot of trading going on around the world in the cruiser scene

I mentioned you can trade a tshirt for lobsters most any day and any place in the pacific so stock up on some nice clean goodwill clothes...

candies are the best way to make friends with locals especially with kids, on remote islands, that and mirrors, gum and yes BOOZE.

cigarettes are the best way to make friends with fisherman all over the world, yes almost everywhere cigarettes would get you the good stuff

next is simple medicine...even aspirin or mild antibiotics for simple infections...stuff you dont think about dearly at home but some places are a god send...

lastly toys, dolls, girly stuff...all ways of trading and not spending $$ necesarily

and lastly cleaning bottoms, shafts, installng zincs, cleaning props is done all over the world in water and its a great way to make a buck

Id put that and canvas/sail work as the number one money maker for cruisers looking for extra cash, then engine work or profficiency, selling spares or trading spares is a big one and simple varnishing painting, going aloft type deals....

cheers


----------



## mrhoneydew

Great information, Christian! I have a TopClimber for going aloft and a sewing machine (though I plan to get an old, bomb-proof portable Singer that is a bit heavier duty). I can make a lot of things (jewelry, paintings, etc.), So I think I should be pretty good "out there" once I make it out. I especially appreciate the words about trade goods. I have extra clothes already that rather than donating to goodwill I will bag up to take along! But also some extra hand tools... hammers, etc. that may be of use to someone out there when I reeeeeally need that mango.  However, I wouldn't think to stock up on chewing gum, cigarettes, or girly things since I don't use them, but throwing a few in the spares locker is a great idea. Overall I am a pretty fair hand at a lot of different odd jobs and I pretty much am of the mindset that "sure I can do it" and then kind of scratch my head, figure it out, and make it up as I go along. That is how I have gained most of my skills so far. "Anything for a buck," as they say.  Bigger picture-wise I'm not really worried about making my way around the world, but sometimes I have that question in the back of my mind about how it's all going to work out, you know? That's simply because I'm not out there yet and have never done it. It's natural to have those little anxieties now and again... but it will all work out.


----------



## manatee

On the odd-jobs front I occasionally see sewing mentioned. Anyone considered or used a foot-powered treadle sewing machine? You'd probably want a shoemaker's machine to handle heavy stuff. I remember watching a local guy use one in a leather shop when I was a kid.

*Of course, prices have gone up a bit.*


----------



## MikeOReilly

We have a Sailrite Ultrafeed LSZ-1 PLUS Walking Foot Sewing Machine. I've got little to compare it to, but I'm pretty impressed with this tool. I've been sewing sunbrella, including multiple layers of material and velcro, and it punches through everything without effort. The walking foot makes it very easy, even for a sewing neophyte like me.

Does require AC power though.


----------



## manatee

mrhoneydew said:


> However, I wouldn't think to stock up on chewing gum, cigarettes, or girly things since I don't use them,
> but throwing a few in the spares locker is a great idea.


You need to watch "Dr. Strangelove". 

Shoot, A Fella' Could Have A Pretty Good Weekend In Vegas With All That Stuff


----------



## christian.hess

mrhoneydew said:


> Great information, Christian! I have a TopClimber for going aloft and a sewing machine (though I plan to get an old, bomb-proof portable Singer that is a bit heavier duty). I can make a lot of things (jewelry, paintings, etc.), So I think I should be pretty good "out there" once I make it out. I especially appreciate the words about trade goods. I have extra clothes already that rather than donating to goodwill I will bag up to take along! But also some extra hand tools... hammers, etc. that may be of use to someone out there when I reeeeeally need that mango.  However, I wouldn't think to stock up on chewing gum, cigarettes, or girly things since I don't use them, but throwing a few in the spares locker is a great idea. Overall I am a pretty fair hand at a lot of different odd jobs and I pretty much am of the mindset that "sure I can do it" and then kind of scratch my head, figure it out, and make it up as I go along. That is how I have gained most of my skills so far. "Anything for a buck," as they say.  Bigger picture-wise I'm not really worried about making my way around the world, but sometimes I have that question in the back of my mind about how it's all going to work out, you know? That's simply because I'm not out there yet and have never done it. It's natural to have those little anxieties now and again... but it will all work out.


the chewing gum, girly things and cigarettes I DONT USE EITHER...they are great ways to make friends, as gifts and as barter...

as are mirrors, tshirts etc...


----------



## mrhoneydew

christian.hess said:


> the chewing gum, girly things and cigarettes I DONT USE EITHER...they are great ways to make friends, as gifts and as barter...
> 
> as are mirrors, tshirts etc...


Sounds great... and my little 28footer is getting full already and I haven't even left the dock! I am a little curious about what specific "girly things" we are talking about. What do girls/women out and about in remote places need that would be small and cheap that I could have along?


----------



## mrhoneydew

manatee said:


> On the odd-jobs front I occasionally see sewing mentioned. Anyone considered or used a foot-powered treadle sewing machine? You'd probably want a shoemaker's machine to handle heavy stuff. I remember watching a local guy use one in a leather shop when I was a kid.
> 
> *Of course, prices have gone up a bit.*


This is a great idea because you don't have to depend on an auxiliary power source... but a little impractical for my small boat. Is there anything else out there that is more compactable (and doesn't outweigh my keel )?


----------



## christian.hess

mrhoneydew said:


> Sounds great... and my little 28footer is getting full already and I haven't even left the dock! I am a little curious about what specific "girly things" we are talking about. What do girls/women out and about in remote places need that would be small and cheap that I could have along?


lipstick
all sorts of cheap makeup stuff, like those mirros with blush and or eye liner etc...the stuff you buy for cents or see for free sometimes in the states...lip balm anything

anything your girlfirend or wife throws away like its nothing THAT stuff is awesome for taking along.

you trade or gift this stuff anywhere you go and people will luv ya...

nothing like trading a lipstick for lobsters, bananas, and all sorts of fresh fruit

think about it...


----------



## mrhoneydew

Great ideas.  It's amazing what a simple trip to the drugstore that we in the US take for granted could do for someone else.


----------



## killarney_sailor

mrhoneydew said:


> This is a great idea because you don't have to depend on an auxiliary power source... but a little impractical for my small boat. Is there anything else out there that is more compactable (and doesn't outweigh my keel )?


We have an old Japanese Singer portable (neat old thing with bronze gears) that was retrofitted with a hand crank on the wheel on the end (you can tell I know my sewing machine terminology). Bought it at the SSCA Gam in Maryland a few years ago. It is fine for lighter work but really can't handle sails. On balance, I don't think it justifies the space and we have a lot of storage space on our 45'.


----------



## smurphny

I picked up a Pfaff 130 from eBay for a couple of hundred bucks and upgraded it with a more powerful motor and a larger hand wheel. Have sewn 2 new sails with it as well as a number of alterations on sails and canvas. It sews right through 8 layers of 8 oz sailcloth on corner patches. The thing I like about these old machines is that they have all metal gears and parts, nothing to strip if abused a bit. Using #20 needles is absolutely necessary for heavy sailcloth. I built a rugged wood box for it so it stows neatly in a locker. It also runs quite well on my small converter, so it can be used with the motor on the boat. These don't have the fancy stitches or attachments of new machines. It'd be nice to have a 3 step zig zag.


----------



## guitarguy56

I picked up a White heavy duty sewing machine to do all my cushions two years ago... I keep it in the boat sealed against moisture... I bought the walking foot for it and it's works great. I can sew up to 1/2 inch or more of fabric/leather materials... so it's perfect for sails and the zig-zag is unbelievable and constant stitching... the results looks professional at best.

It is similar to this one...










I have a Necchi sewing machine at home that I used to sew leather seats for our two show cars... and looks similar to this...










Both are great machines and neither of them cost me an arm or leg... I paid $70 for the White and $35 for the Necchi... I would have paid $200 for either of them as they are well worth the cost to have them.

You can see the interior I reupholstered here on my convertible with the Necchi sewing machine:

clocks.html


----------



## mrhoneydew

guitarguy56 said:


> I picked up a White heavy duty sewing machine to do all my cushions two years ago... I keep it in the boat sealed against moisture... I bought the walking foot for it and it's works great. I can sew up to 1/2 inch or more of fabric/leather materials... so it's perfect for sails and the zig-zag is unbelievable and constant stitching... the results looks professional at best.
> 
> It is similar to this one...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a Necchi sewing machine at home that I used to sew leather seats for our two show cars... and looks similar to this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both are great machines and neither of them cost me an arm or leg... I paid $70 for the White and $35 for the Necchi... I would have paid $200 for either of them as they are well worth the cost to have them.
> 
> You can see the interior I reupholstered here on my convertible with the Necchi sewing machine:
> 
> clocks.html


Wow! Where do you find a machine like either of those for so little?! I would pay $200 too, but $35 or $70 would be far better.  I have been looking on eBay but shipping can tend to be quite a bit. I'll have to check out craigslist.

And BEAUTIFUL Fiat. I love the 2000 Spyders. I have a feeling that the machine was only a small fraction of the result.


----------



## guitarguy56

The Necchi I bought on Ebay but paid approx. $50 to get it shipped due to the weight (still a bargain for this excellent machine (early Japanese built).

The White machine I bought in Everett from a guy selling stuff from his home. He wanted $100 but I gave him $70 for it as I bought other items and he gave it to me for a great price... these are same quality as any Sailright machines and sew just as well... both have high powered motors... as I said heavy duty machines.

Keep looking around as you'll find a good bargain out there.


----------



## christian.hess

pretty good prices there man! we have a bunch of these down here...cheapos heavy and old so when I get the chance its sewing machine buying time wel when its time for a cruise

jajja

peace


----------



## smurphny

Lou452 said:


> I would like to have some advice about water and storage Beginning with " A Dry BOAT ? water proof boxes and bags.
> They have otter boxes, and an outdoor products box, and a shoreline marine. The last one Shoreline looks like it is the most likely to leak.
> All kinds of bags right down to the thin plastic zip lock bag. Bags can stuff into shapes that a box can not but the box also has its place.
> I have saved a few food containers but I am finding once the seal is broken they will leak. I can re-seal but then it is just as hard to access as the first time.
> A test is submerge in 3-5 feet and see if it will leak ?
> I do not understand all the books I read. They talk about the boat in poor weather and water coming in everyplace. Then almost everything is a loss. The rice, beans, toilet Paper, clothing . I have had some stuff that was made useless by water. I understand water belongs outside the boat. The word I am looking for is redundancy. If you have two or more ways to keep the water at bay you might have dry food, clothing and gear.
> In the end you need stuff that can get wet and live. Am I on the right Approach ?
> Kind Regards, Lou


Good topic. Keeping stuff dry on a boat is always a challenge. Just the relative humidity tends to get everything soggy. I have a number of drybags from when I used to do a lot of sea kayaking. They do keep clothes and things like sheets very dry. If you suck the air out of them as much as possible, they actually compress stuff for better use of space. The only problem with the opaque ones is that I forget what's in them. If buying new for the sailboat, clear would be better.


----------



## guitarguy56

mrhoneydew said:


> And BEAUTIFUL Fiat. I love the 2000 Spyders. I have a feeling that the machine was only a small fraction of the result.


Thanks... that is the second Fiat Spyder I reupholstered with the Necchi... the first car I tried sewing anything on was my son's Fiat Spyder... also covered in leather... by the way it took 5 leather hides to reupholster the entire car you see, door panels, dash, consoles, seats, also the carpet is done by yours truly in Ferrari wool. It is a show stopper at the car shows and a favorite when at the Italian car show gatherings.

The Necchi is a great machine if you can find one... all metal gears, nothing plastic or nylon in these machines... it was when the Japanese really made excellent sewing machines among other items.


----------



## Lou452

I do not know if I have much in the way of sewing skill. I will need to get some basic level at least for emergency needs. A lot to this learning to sail. I could not have even guessed at some side skills. 
LOL . My imagination dreams up all your third world nations sewing shirts and shoes for export to the first world. So you mean to say when I land in port The kids will not beg to sew my sails and do my wash. I was going to pack my boat with gum, lip stick, and trade my empty tin cans for all my needs. Maybe even become a king in a far away land.

I am sure trades and good will can be made with the right mind set. A gift with heart has a value that goes beyond the monetary values. We have no idea how blessed we are to have time to spare for thinking on how to play with our boats. How many in the world would just like a drink of clean water and a bite to eat ?
Kind Regards, Lou


----------



## guitarguy56

I like cold drinks when I was in the boat lazing around or when I invited friends for a cruise... I have this mixer and it works great at crushing ice and as a general purpose grinder/mixer/processor... what do other use?










I also have the hand grinder you put into a drink to mix but never use it...










I prefer granito type drinks with crushed ice (like a frozen margarita) but the ice is more coarse... either way the Oyster mixer is perfect at least for me on the boat and stores quite easily.

I know this does not contribute to budget cruising but it would be no different than those wanting to carry beer and other booze. Same space requirements I guess.


----------



## MikeOReilly

I've had a manual blender, similar to this one, for years now. We use it mostly when at our land home.










We don't typically carry or create ice on board, so no crushed ice drinks on our boat. Sorry guitarguy56 ... but I usually have beer or some rum on hand. Hope you'll still drop in .

We also carry, and do use on board, a manual food blender similar to this one. It packs up small, and is pretty versatile for chopping, mulching and creating sauces and dips:

Amazon.com: ABS manual Multifunctional shredder meat grinder food processor kitchen blender: Kitchen & [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@41IVzcLfWEL


----------



## Don L

Blenders on a boat, you guys are fancy!


----------



## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> I've had a manual blender, similar to this one, for years now. We use it mostly when at our land home.
> 
> We don't typically carry or create ice on board, so no crushed ice drinks on our boat. Sorry guitarguy56 ... but I usually have beer or some rum on hand. Hope you'll still drop in .
> 
> We also carry, and do use on board, a manual food blender similar to this one. It packs up small, and is pretty versatile for chopping, mulching and creating sauces and dips:
> 
> Amazon.com: ABS manual Multifunctional shredder meat grinder food processor kitchen blender: Kitchen & Dining


Thanks... that's really cool Mike... never seen a manual mixer like this before... I'll have to get one for our camping supplies. My wifey loves the granito drinks so we are always looking for new drinks to mix (most do not have alcohol as my wife cannot have it in drinks because of her prescriptions) there are many recipes for these drinks and smoothies online.


----------



## travlin-easy

Mike, I always have at least 10 to 20-pounds of ice cubes on the boat at all times, so when you get to my area, no problem fixing any cocktail you enjoy. 

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## guitarguy56

You guys here have to help me on how I can get my baby grand into my sailboat or the next one I plan to buy...










This boat has one and I'm sooooo envious! 

Got to do it on a budget though might be tough... :laugher


----------



## manatee

88 Keys Roll Up Piano Flexible Electronic Keyboard w/ Louder Speaker


----------



## guitarguy56

manatee said:


> 88 Keys Roll Up Piano Flexible Electronic Keyboard w/ Louder Speaker


Not the same... a pianist will not play with those and small keyboards... but with space limited... maybe? I have several 61 key keyboards and while they sound ok (digital synthesized sampled) not what I want...

This guy's set this up on his boat... would work I guess...










This would be preferred of course...


----------



## MikeOReilly

travlineasy said:


> Mike, I always have at least 10 to 20-pounds of ice cubes on the boat at all times, so when you get to my area, no problem fixing any cocktail you enjoy.


See ... I don't need a fridge/freezer. I just need to hang out with all my SN friends .

Thanks Gary, book us in for 2016!


----------



## mrhoneydew

guitarguy56 said:


> You guys here have to help me on how I can get my baby grand into my sailboat or the next one I plan to buy...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This boat has one and I'm sooooo envious!
> 
> Got to do it on a budget though might be tough... :laugher


I think you'll need to go over to the $3000 per month thread for this one. "Budget Cruiser" doesn't mean "destitute" as some seem to think, but we do have our limitations.


----------



## manatee

guitarguy56 said:


> Not the same... a pianist will not play with those and small keyboards... but with space limited... maybe? I have several 61 key keyboards and while they sound ok (digital synthesized sampled) not what I want...
> 
> This guy's set this up on his boat... would work I guess...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This would be preferred of course...


Get one like Schroeder's ---


----------



## guitarguy56

manatee said:


> Get one like Schroeder's ---


Ha ha... LOL... It was meant as a joke... but it would be nice to know what size sailboat could have a baby grand or upright piano and capable of having the proper CG to handle the weight... it doesn't seem to pose a problem in these larger yachts (of course they are bolted to the floor system).

Maybe the guys in the $3000/month club have pianos in their boats?


----------



## RoryP23

Just wanted to say thanks for all of the great info in this thread. I've been lurking and just reached the end after reading a bit everyday over the past couple of weeks.

One area of low-cost voyaging that hasn't really been explored too much is ways of setting up your sailing rig that are low-maintenance, simple, robust, and budget-friendly. I know Annie Hill is a big proponent of the junk rig. It won't go upwind much but you can use nearly anything for sailcloth and reefing is a cinch!

I direct you to my friend and professional sailor Andy Schell's article titled Simplicity v. Technology on the Ocean Sailing Boat. He is a strong advocate for a solent rig vs. a cutter rig for example. The URL is: 59-north.com/sailfeed/2014/1/9/simplicity-v-technology-on-the-ocean-sailing-boat (SN won't let me post a link yet).

I'm still a few years away from untying the lines. I currently daysail and weekend cruise my Precision 23 out of Deale, MD on the Chesapeake. In a few years I plan on purchasing a bluewater-capable boat and voyaging for a while. Looking forward to seeing some of you out there and using a lot of the knowledge gained in this thread. 

MikeO - I don't know if you plan on making it into Lake Michigan or not, but my lady and first mate is from Elk Rapids, MI just north of Traverse City. She has a bunch of family there. It's a great little harbor town on the Eastern portion of Grand Traverse Bay. I definitely recommend that area for beautiful sights, sand dunes, wineries, and low-cost small town living.

"Own, less. Live more"


----------



## travlin-easy

As a pro musician/entertainer, when I made my trip down the ICW last fall, I carried all my music gear with me and it fit nicely in the Morgan33 O.I. Quarter Berth, which is where I felt it would be safer while traveling in marginal weather conditions.

My gear consisted of:
1 Yamaha PSR-3000 arranger keyboard
1 custom console unit with laptop, vocal processor and all power supplies
1 Bose L1 compact PA system
1 Quick-Loc double tier X-stand
1 spares bag containing extra mic, power supplies, cables, etc...
1 Quick-Loc folding musician's chair
1 Rock And Roller R-10 transportation cart
2 expansion rails for R-10 cart top tier

The most difficult thing about hauling the music gear was getting it out of the boat and safely onto the dock of the venue where I would perform that night. Kind of scary at times, but didn't really have a problem. When I entertained aboard, I just set the keyboard up on the dinette table, plugged in my mic and used the keyboard's onboard speakers instead of setting up the PA system. Worked out great, the ladies loved it, and we sure had lots of onboard parties.

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## manatee




----------



## smurphny

I'm impressed that you got all your gear aboard Gary! Have thought about carrying my Bose L1 (not compact) and equipment to do a gig or two while sailing but have decided it's just too much to carry. The only instrument I keep aboard is a small nylon string guitar that I built just for the boat. Also thought I did not really want to work "...for drinks and tips..."


----------



## manatee

smurphny said:


> I'm impressed that you got all your gear aboard Gary! Have thought about carrying my Bose L1 (not compact) and equipment to do a gig or two while sailing but have decided it's just too much to carry. The only instrument I keep aboard is a small nylon string guitar that I built just for the boat. Also thought I did not really want to work "...for drinks and tips..."


Will you "play for gumbo"?


----------



## MikeOReilly

RoryP23 said:


> MikeO - I don't know if you plan on making it into Lake Michigan or not, but my lady and first mate is from Elk Rapids, MI just north of Traverse City. She has a bunch of family there. It's a great little harbor town on the Eastern portion of Grand Traverse Bay. I definitely recommend that area for beautiful sights, sand dunes, wineries, and low-cost small town living.


Hi Rory, great to have you with us. And thanks for all the "likes" along the way. It's been fun seeing your progress through this long thread.

Interesting thoughts about the benefits of a junk rig. I love Annie Hill's book. She's definitely one of my guides as we move aboard. And while I believe all she says about a junk rig, I have no plans to reconfigure my cutter. I wouldn't even know how to start on a project like that. But if I was shopping for a new(old) boat, I would definitely look around for junk.

Thanks too for the Michigan suggestion. You've peaked my interest. If we have the time (and I hope we will), I think a visit to Grand Traverse Bay is now on in the plans.

BTW, I've heard great things about your boat, the Precision 23. A serious boat that hits far above it LOA -- from all I've heard.


----------



## guitarguy56

travlineasy said:


> As a pro musician/entertainer, when I made my trip down the ICW last fall, I carried all my music gear with me and it fit nicely in the Morgan33 O.I. Quarter Berth, which is where I felt it would be safer while traveling in marginal weather conditions.
> 
> My gear consisted of:
> 1 Yamaha PSR-3000 arranger keyboard
> 1 custom console unit with laptop, vocal processor and all power supplies
> 1 Bose L1 compact PA system
> 1 Quick-Loc double tier X-stand
> 1 spares bag containing extra mic, power supplies, cables, etc...
> 1 Quick-Loc folding musician's chair
> 1 Rock And Roller R-10 transportation cart
> 2 expansion rails for R-10 cart top tier
> 
> The most difficult thing about hauling the music gear was getting it out of the boat and safely onto the dock of the venue where I would perform that night. Kind of scary at times, but didn't really have a problem. When I entertained aboard, I just set the keyboard up on the dinette table, plugged in my mic and used the keyboard's onboard speakers instead of setting up the PA system. Worked out great, the ladies loved it, and we sure had lots of onboard parties.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Gary... that's kinda nice and I bet you are the hit of the party... same here in a way... We love to throw parties with themes... we mostly like the luau's as most of our stuff we've bought over the years including a real tiki hut bar for serving drinks (I'm sometimes the bartender), my daughter was born on July 4th so essentially every year on her birthday was a luau party. Eventually she married after college and now we throw '70's polyester disco' parties, '50's Hop parties, and '80's throwback parties... we dress up for the part too... one of my regulations when we do the theme parties. So sometimes we'll gather by the piano and sing some old standby's...

I would seriously like to have a piano in the boat as in one of the photos and get a boat capable of carrying it, if not a digital upright keyboard would work but I want it permanently mounted rather than carrying it off/on the boat as you do. The guitar is so much easier but my fingers yearn for the piano on many occasions... can't see travelling too much without a keyboard present.

Touche'...

Maybe something like this would work?  :laugher


----------



## manatee

You could recreate the Biscayne Bay Piano Bar.

Piano Bar


----------



## travlin-easy

Yamaha has a new digital piano/keyboard DGX-650 DGX-650 Digital Piano - Portable Grand - Portable Keyboards - Pianos & Keyboards - Musical Instruments - Products - Yamaha United States that sounds fantastic. It takes up very little space, sounds exactly like a Yamaha Baby Grand, has fully weighted keys, plus arranger keyboard styles to work with. It goes for about $800 and will fit easily in most 30-foot and above sailboats with ease.

Smurf, when I had the full size Bose L1 PAS and a single sub, I was able to do jobs with audiences to 1,200 people with ease. The Bose L1 Compact, which only weighs 23 pounds, handles audiences to 150 with lots of headroom. Additionally, it was originally designed for a guitar player, but also works great with keyboards. I sold my L1 PAS and purchased a second Compact for the larger jobs and with a pair of them connected in stereo to the keyboard I can do audiences to about 500 and still have some headroom.

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## mrhoneydew

We seem to have stagnated again. I guess I must accept that threads naturally run their course... I just feel I have gained so much from this one that I'm not quite ready to let it go! 

Here's a question: how do you plan to utilize your stored provisions? As in, if you are going to all the trouble of dehydrating, shopping for cans, etc. but you just end up buying fresh veggies, etc. locally wherever you are and end up with the same stored food 2 years later, what's the point? You could leave with half of it or less and be just fine. So it seems that a conscious awareness of what you have aboard and discipline to cycle through it would be prudent. Any thoughts?


----------



## windnrock

We basically plan out meals for 3 months, give or take. Depending on where we will be we add fresh foods and bump the reserves with what is not used. This is again utilized in a food plan. Most of the stock items we carry have a 2-3 year shelf life and some as much as 5. Keep your provisions organized and have a list with location and dates of purchase and useful life. Using Excel to list items and their locations is even more helpful because you can sort by a use by date to insure that can of garbanzo beans gets used before the next millennium. Excel is a great program for organizing anything, provisions, parts, fuel use charts, gathering data for polar diagrams, etc.


----------



## MikeOReilly

In our case one of the main motivators for drying and storing a lot of food right now is b/c we are moving from decent incomes (now) to zero guaranteed income once we leave the dock. So our plan is probably not as generally applicable to most people. 

In our case, a good stock of dried food is equivalent to our new winches. It's an investment that will see us through a long period of time while we try and figure out how to make life afloat sustainable. It's not necessarily something I would recommend for everyone. As is often pointed out, people eat everywhere you go. Finding food is not a problem for most cruisers. 

With regard to dried food, it will last for many years without much deterioration if kept dry and sealed. I've eaten dried fruits and veggies that were over 5 years old. In fact the only thing I've ever had go off (and that's b/c weevils got in) was dried meat. And that was only after many years.


----------



## findrichard

We are planning to grow sprouts aboard while we cruse. Sprouts are packed with nutrition and the seeds store easily, last for years, are very inexpensive, and of course grow into a sprout thousands of times bigger than the seed. You can literally store a years worth of food (seeds) under one seat birth. We have been eating sprouts for about 4 months now and what a difference they make in our energy levels. I know becoming vegan does not sound very enticing, but once you live the lifestyle for awhile you will wonder why everyone is not doing it. Feels great!


----------



## bljones




----------



## findrichard

Funny but true, it is hard not to share good news. How can you tell if someone is not a vegan?


----------



## Minnesail

Same joke, different topic.

Q: How can you tell if someone doesn't own a TV?

A: Oh, don't worry. They'll tell you.


----------



## bljones

findrichard said:


> How can you tell if someone is not a vegan?


They DON'T let you know. 

I am glad you saw the humour, find. Also glad you have found a diet that you like and that works for you.


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

Minnesail said:


> Same joke, different topic.
> 
> Q: How can you tell if someone doesn't own a TV?
> 
> A: Oh, don't worry. They'll tell you.


I haven't had a TV or TV service for 4.5yrs and I like it. Looking back now, I wasted so much time and money on it.


----------



## MikeOReilly

We sprout while underway, and usually carry a few herb plants as well (basil, chives). And all kidding aside, I've never been a vegetarian, and do enjoy my dead animal, but I can swing both ways . Give me some beans and I'm happy.

As for TV -- haven't had one for decades now. But touch my CBC radio and there will be hell to pay!


----------



## christian.hess

beans, nice way to heat up the cabin...jajajaja


----------



## christian.hess

ps I was a vegetarian fo like 3 years or so...beans rice, tortilla all sorts of ways, add eggs or veggies or avocado, or whatever...I would eat mountains of it BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT the above is what happened...

nothing would cure the excessive air jajajajajajaja


----------



## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> beans, nice way to heat up the cabin...jajajaja


Us northern sailors can always use the extra cabin heat .


----------



## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> Us northern sailors can always use the extra cabin heat .


fine for solo sailing but not gunna cut it with the wife!

no pun intended


----------



## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> fine for solo sailing but not gunna cut it with the wife!


You haven't met my wife. She can burp and fart with the best. As she proudly says, _"I ain't no lady!"_

... thank g-d, b/c I ain't no gentleman .


----------



## Brent Swain

JonEisberg said:


> Loose-footed mains aren't very conducive to water catchment, unfortunately... The old 'shelf foot' that one used to see on some mains years ago would have worked well, but I haven't seen one of those in years...
> 
> Any voyaging boat should have water tank fills placed at or near the lowest spot on deck where rainwater will collect, IMHO... Many might be surprised at how much water one can collect during the course of a typical tropical downpour...


My loose footed main works well for water catchment with a lazy bag under it, held up by lazy jacks. With no attachment to the boom along its length there is no need for any holes for slides in the lazy bag . Rainwater comes gushing out the front end of it, where a bucket fills quickly.


----------



## Brent Swain

A lengthy study released a few days ago reported that there is little evidence of any harm from animal fats, but concluded that transfats in any amount can be extremely harmful, and there is absolutely no safe amount of transfats ("Vegetable shortening, hydrogenated oil ,etc), in any diet.


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeOReilly said:


> Hi Rory, great to have you with us. And thanks for all the "likes" along the way. It's been fun seeing your progress through this long thread.
> 
> Interesting thoughts about the benefits of a junk rig. I love Annie Hill's book. She's definitely one of my guides as we move aboard. And while I believe all she says about a junk rig, I have no plans to reconfigure my cutter. I wouldn't even know how to start on a project like that. But if I was shopping for a new(old) boat, I would definitely look around for junk.
> 
> Freinds, who converted from a junk rig to marconi, said they woud never consider going back to a junk rig. The junk is horrendously complex, chafe prone, slow as a bureuacrats brain when trying to get to windward, and you have to build any sails from scratch .There are very few used junk sails on the market.


----------



## Brent Swain

mrhoneydew said:


> We seem to have stagnated again. I guess I must accept that threads naturally run their course... I just feel I have gained so much from this one that I'm not quite ready to let it go!
> 
> Here's a question: how do you plan to utilize your stored provisions? As in, if you are going to all the trouble of dehydrating, shopping for cans, etc. but you just end up buying fresh veggies, etc. locally wherever you are and end up with the same stored food 2 years later, what's the point? You could leave with half of it or less and be just fine. So it seems that a conscious awareness of what you have aboard and discipline to cycle through it would be prudent. Any thoughts?


You buy fresh local when available and cheap, and use dried stuff at sea, or in remote uninhabited anchorages, when it is not available, or where it is expensive. My last ocean passage was 57 days at sea ,non stop, .Not many vegetable markets in mid Pacific. Great peace of mind having a long term supply of food aboard.


----------



## Minnesail

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> I haven't had a TV or TV service for 4.5yrs and I like it. Looking back now, I wasted so much time and money on it.





MikeOReilly said:


> As for TV -- haven't had one for decades now.


What did I say? They'll tell you! 



MikeOReilly said:


> But touch my CBC radio and there will be hell to pay!


I <3 my public radio. They even play a bit of yours down here, at 10pm we get As It Happens, with Barbara Budd.


----------



## Brent Swain

travlineasy said:


> Mike, I always have at least 10 to 20-pounds of ice cubes on the boat at all times, so when you get to my area, no problem fixing any cocktail you enjoy.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Relying on refrigeration to preserve food leaves one vulnerable to a complex system . Failure of any one component in a remote area, or at sea can mean watching ones food supply rot away quickly ,before one can do anything about it. Food which doesn't need complex mechanical or electrical systems to keep it from rotting is real food security.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Minnesail said:


> I <3 my public radio. They even play a bit of yours down here, at 10pm we get As It Happens, with Barbara Budd.


_As It Happens_ is a great show, but you're out of date Minn. Barbara Budd got the boot some four years ago. The current hosts are Carol Off and Jeff Douglas.

NPR is also great. It's my radio refuge when travelling south.


----------



## killarney_sailor

MikeOReilly said:


> _As It Happens_ is a great show, but you're out of date Minn. Barbara Budd got the boot some four years ago. The current hosts are Carol Off and Jeff Douglas.
> 
> NPR is also great. It's my radio refuge when travelling south.


I am basically an information junkie with CBC at home and NPR when we lived in the US, but it was interesting when we got into obscure places. I did not listen to anything, nor paid much attention to news on the Internet. We could get somewhere civilized after 2 or 3 months and the details on the news had changed a bit but the overall trend lines were identical.


----------



## Don L

Brent Swain said:


> Relying on refrigeration to preserve food leaves one vulnerable to a complex system . Failure of any one component in a remote area, or at sea can mean watching ones food supply rot away quickly ,before one can do anything about it. Food which doesn't need complex mechanical or electrical systems to keep it from rotting is real food security.


Most people I know have other food around than just what is in the refrigerator. And refrigerators aren't very complex!


----------



## MikeOReilly

killarney_sailor said:


> I am basically an information junkie with CBC at home and NPR when we lived in the US, but it was interesting when we got into obscure places. I did not listen to anything, nor paid much attention to news on the Internet. We could get somewhere civilized after 2 or 3 months and the details on the news had changed a bit but the overall trend lines were identical.


So true. I actually don't listen to the radio when we're off on our month+ cruises on the Great Lakes. In fact our current boat doesn't even have an FM receiver.

But sometimes the world does change... On one trip along north shore of Lake Superior I left Sept. 10, 2001. Saw no one, and heard nothing until Sept. 14. We were in at CPR Harbour (for those who know the north shore) when this motor cruiser pulls in. The owner immediately jumps off the boat, runs over to us and yells, "Have you heard the news!" He figured from the looks of us that we'd been out to sea for a while.

We flipped on the radio and listened with increasing horror for the next two hours. Then we turned it off. Ruined what had been a wonderful trip up until then. In retrospect I wish I had remained blissfully ignorant for a few more days .


----------



## Omatako

Brent Swain said:


> You buy fresh local when available and cheap, and use dried stuff at sea, or in remote uninhabited anchorages, when it is not available, or where it is expensive. My last ocean passage was 57 days at sea ,non stop, .Not many vegetable markets in mid Pacific. Great peace of mind having a long term supply of food aboard.


But to be sure, 57 days non stop at sea must have been a choice you made to sort of circumnavigate the Pacific. Because 57 days x 24 hours x 2.5 knots = 3420 miles.

There are no "required" single passages in the Pacific that long nor many sailors that will put up with an average of 2.5 knots for two months. Put another way, at 5 knots average 57 days at sea would be a trip from California to Australia non-stop.

Thus it doesn't really qualify as a food "emergency" that one would need to budget for.


----------



## findrichard

Now if he had head winds all the way, how many miles under the keel would it be to cross?


----------



## Brent Swain

Omatako said:


> But to be sure, 57 days non stop at sea must have been a choice you made to sort of circumnavigate the Pacific. Because 57 days x 24 hours x 2.5 knots = 3420 miles.
> 
> There are no "required" single passages in the Pacific that long nor many sailors that will put up with an average of 2.5 knots for two months. Put another way, at 5 knots average 57 days at sea would be a trip from California to Australia non-stop.
> 
> Thus it doesn't really qualify as a food "emergency" that one would need to budget for.


It was non stop from Tonga to BC , 5,000 miles , 4,000 of it against super squally trade winds, with a tropical storm thrown in for variety. There were few other options for getting home quickly. Australia is closer to 7,000 miles. 3420 wont get you to the Marquesas. As I left the first of april ,the trades were far more northerly than they were previously ,on the same trip in july, which had far more southerlies.
No, a sailboat doesn't sail the rumb line against the trades ,with a tropical storm in the mix! Jet plane travellers dont get that part.
Nice to avoid the super expensive food in French Polynesia, or New Caledonia, by bringing your own , or avoiding eating nothing much but coconuts, rice, fish and local fruit on Fanning. Not much else available there.


----------



## Lou452

I am still here . Reading lurking. The weather is starting to warm up So I am getting the bug 
Kind Regards, Lou


----------



## Bene505

I'm about spend $450 recovering 1 leather cushion. That's almost a whole month's cruising budget on this thread. 

It's the end cushion where the nav station is, and it takes the most abuse. I tried using a couple Priceclub fabric cushions, but they were flimsy, didn't match, and overall added very little value.

Any suggestions? Yes, I bought a sewing maching but have no idea how to use it, and don't have the time right now to learn with work and spring prep.

Regards,
Brad


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## MikeOReilly

Barter with someone who knows how to sew?


----------



## christian.hess

Bene505 said:


> I'm about spend $450 recovering 1 leather cushion. That's almost a whole month's cruising budget on this thread.
> 
> It's the end cushion where the nav station is, and it takes the most abuse. I tried using a couple Priceclub fabric cushions, but they were flimsy, didn't match, and overall added very little value.
> 
> Any suggestions? Yes, I bought a sewing maching but have no idea how to use it, and don't have the time right now to learn with work and spring prep.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


yikes man! seriouly what mike says...someone help or no cruising for you for 1 month!


----------



## travlin-easy

Mike is right about refrigeration not being complicated. Additionally, I know a lot of cruisers, and none of them keep ALL of their food refrigerated. Most rely heavily on canned goods and dried goods.

Gary


----------



## smurphny

Bene505 said:


> I'm about spend $450 recovering 1 leather cushion. That's almost a whole month's cruising budget on this thread.
> 
> It's the end cushion where the nav station is, and it takes the most abuse. I tried using a couple Priceclub fabric cushions, but they were flimsy, didn't match, and overall added very little value.
> 
> Any suggestions? Yes, I bought a sewing maching but have no idea how to use it, and don't have the time right now to learn with work and spring prep.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


Sounds pretty steep. ?Leather?


----------



## okawbow

Here's how one couple temporarily solved the money problem while living aboard.
http://news.yahoo.com/couple-u-lived-yacht-collected-welfare-prosecutor-224125586.html


----------



## vega1860

barefootnavigator said:


> I guess the simple answer is that I prefer not to work anymore than I have to.


Who does? 

On budgeting: Everyone asks the question "How much does it cost?" No one likes the answer "Depends on how much you like to spend"

I can tell you how much it costs *me*. I cannot tell you how much it will cost *you*. You will have to figure that out for yourself.

Cruising Lealea Q&A No.9 - How much Does it Cost?


----------



## Logans Run

Living off the hook, 500/mo could be possible. Think of your life like a business: keep overhead down and income somewhat higher, and you can slowly gain. The wild card, of course, is maintenance and repair, supplies can be expensive. Budgeting for this is difficult, but if factored in, a reserve can be built up in time.


----------



## SteveKras

I want to say big thanks to the contributors of this post. I found it when it started and read the whole thing (it was under 50 posts at that time). I then got distracted and started to read/follow Barefoot's blog. I had sworn off message forums a couple years ago because of the bickering that always happens. My faith in this small part of the internet has been restored. I guess I made it all the way through this war and peace sized thread. There is an impressive amount of information here. 

While I an not a cruiser, voyager, or even a boat owner, I have learned a lot just from this one thread. I sail other peoples boats on a regular basis 6 months a year. The owners that I know are all in the minimum $1,000 per month day sailor club. I have gotten used to their beliefs of what is needed whether it be 30', 35', 38', autohelm, power furlers, etc. My dream of owning was getting pushed back further and further. Now I've been able to start looking at 24' to 27' boats again without feeling inadequate. It's about being out there and doing what we love, not trying to impress the other guy.

I've gotten complacent and fallen trap to the American Dream. Graduate, buy a house with a fenced yard and a mortgage, buy a new car with a loan, find a way to make a bank own your life. Some of the provisioning ideas that you guys have written about have given me ideas on how to live more frugally on land. Oh, but giving up the microbrew beers is where I draw the line. Speaking of which, I'm going to go to the fridge and grab a cold one and toast you guys who can look at a boat the floats now. Mother nature decided to give us one last snow today.


----------



## MikeOReilly

SteveKras said:


> I've gotten complacent and fallen trap to the American Dream. Graduate, buy a house with a fenced yard and a mortgage, buy a new car with a loan, find a way to make a bank own your life. Some of the provisioning ideas that you guys have written about have given me ideas on how to live more frugally on land. Oh, but giving up the microbrew beers is where I draw the line. Speaking of which, I'm going to go to the fridge and grab a cold one and toast you guys who can look at a boat the floats now. Mother nature decided to give us one last snow today.


Three cheers







to you Steve. Frugal living doesn't have to mean austerity everywhere. Good beer is always worth the sacrifice .

One of the simple truths in life for me has been to avoid the trap of debt. I've been both lucky, fearful, and a tiny bit wise when it comes to avoiding falling prey to "the American Dream," or in my case the Canadian Dream. My needs are small, and I have no desire to leave anything behind once I'd dead and gone. I've never wanted a big car, big house, lots of things, etc... Part of that (the luck part) is that as a professional writer I was pretty much guaranteed never to have a lot of money. The fearful part comes from growing up in a lower-middle class house which always teetered on the edge of bankruptcy, and the wisdom is in choosing a spouse who feels the same as I about the real values in life.

If there is a fundamental difference between the $500/month vs the $3000/month folk, it might be that we embrace the notion of "enough." For those inculcated in western capitalist culture, there is no such thing as "enough." We are trained from birth to need more. After all, it's how our economies now work (or don't work). So we learn to _need_ a big boat, a big engine, lots of electronic doo-dads, fridge/freezer, A/C, etc...

Getting out from under the debt that capitalist culture forces most of its consumers (not citizens) into is the first step towards real freedom. After that, just about any boat will do .


----------



## SteveKras

Being that refrigeration was one of the topics here, and many in this thread have chosen to forgo a cold box of any kind...I have a habit of whatever is leftover, put it in the fridge. What kinds of things don't need refrigeration? I don't mean for month long voyages, but maybe for 1-2 weeks of port to port cruising? I just learned last year that farm fresh eggs can be left out. Obviously milk and meat need to be kept cold. 
Do fruits and vegetables need to be kept cold? I know they will last longer in the fridge, what about peppers, tomatoes, carats, citrus fruits, melons...
How about if I make a salsa with peppers, onions, tomatoes all of which were on the counter ripeningfor a couple days? In the fridge that will last a week, maybe more, but I can't seem to be able to not eat it for that long. Habit says I need to refrigerate my leftover rice, but other than water, there is nothing in there. The individual ingredients were warm. Does the final product need to be kept cold?


----------



## MikeOReilly

SteveKras said:


> Do fruits and vegetables need to be kept cold? I know they will last longer in the fridge, what about peppers, tomatoes, carats, citrus fruits, melons...
> 
> How about if I make a salsa with peppers, onions, tomatoes all of which were on the counter ripeningfor a couple days? In the fridge that will last a week, maybe more, but I can't seem to be able to not eat it for that long. Habit says I need to refrigerate my leftover rice, but other than water, there is nothing in there. The individual ingredients were warm. Does the final product need to be kept cold?


Hi Steve, I'll take a stab here. I'll first say there are better resources in the form of books (Annie Hill, many Pardey books) which go through this kind of stuff in detail. There are probably online resources as well that can be more systematic.

When we cruise we're usually out for four to six weeks at a time. Here's what I've learned.


In general, the tougher the veggie or fruit the longer it will last.
Potatoes, carrots, turnips, radishes, onions, garlic, parsnip, fennel, etc. all last a long time.
Cabbage lasts over a month, and is a wonderful food for everything from soups to sandwiches. It's a great substitute for lettuce.
Tomatoes last for weeks as long as they're protected from bruising. 
Same with citrus (oranges, grapefruit), and apples, especially the harder ones like Granny Smith. The higher sugary ones like Macintosh go off faster, but will still last for two weeks. 
Bell peppers do not last long (days, maybe a week). Neither does cucumber or any delicate leafy lettuces. Spinach on the stem will last for a days to a week.
I've never taken melons, but I would expect them to be ok for a week or so, as long as they're protected from bruising.
You mention meats; obviously fresh meat won't last long, but dried and cured meats (sausage, jerky, dried meet mixes) will last a long time. I dry ground beef and it will last years if kept sealed.

Hard cheeses last a long time, but not the soft cheeses. You know about eggs. What else... ?


----------



## christian.hess

cheese is great, we bought canned cheese(soft btw) in oils in various places, in panama, asia beleive it or not and in sri lanka we also bought a bunch of ghee...if your not a fan of oils....

dried meats like chorizo, salamis and the like last in wax paper...hard cheses if DRY. jerky is an awesome thing too

stuff that Id take now if cruising long term again would be more cured and pickled stuff suff like peppers and fennel, onions...more dried chorizos and hams that already come vaccum sealed will last...

anywhoo


----------



## Brent Swain

Bene505 said:


> I'm about spend $450 recovering 1 leather cushion. That's almost a whole month's cruising budget on this thread.
> 
> It's the end cushion where the nav station is, and it takes the most abuse. I tried using a couple Priceclub fabric cushions, but they were flimsy, didn't match, and overall added very little value.
> 
> Any suggestions? Yes, I bought a sewing maching but have no idea how to use it, and don't have the time right now to learn with work and spring prep.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


I use Sampson for cushion covers, with plywood bottoms. It's 3 oz dacron saturated with PVC. Tough and cheap. You just wrap it over your padding and staple it to the bottoms of the plywood. Takes minutes to make up your cushions that way.


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeOReilly said:


> Hi Steve, I'll take a stab here. I'll first say there are better resources in the form of books (Annie Hill, many Pardey books) which go through this kind of stuff in detail. There are probably online resources as well that can be more systematic.
> 
> When we cruise we're usually out for four to six weeks at a time. Here's what I've learned.
> 
> 
> In general, the tougher the veggie or fruit the longer it will last.
> Potatoes, carrots, turnips, radishes, onions, garlic, parsnip, fennel, etc. all last a long time.
> Cabbage lasts over a month, and is a wonderful food for everything from soups to sandwiches. It's a great substitute for lettuce.
> Tomatoes last for weeks as long as they're protected from bruising.
> Same with citrus (oranges, grapefruit), and apples, especially the harder ones like Granny Smith. The higher sugary ones like Macintosh go off faster, but will still last for two weeks.
> Bell peppers do not last long (days, maybe a week). Neither does cucumber or any delicate leafy lettuces. Spinach on the stem will last for a days to a week.
> I've never taken melons, but I would expect them to be ok for a week or so, as long as they're protected from bruising.
> You mention meats; obviously fresh meat won't last long, but dried and cured meats (sausage, jerky, dried meet mixes) will last a long time. I dry ground beef and it will last years if kept sealed.
> 
> Hard cheeses last a long time, but not the soft cheeses. You know about eggs. What else... ?


Cover any hard cheese in a jar with cooking oil and it will last forever. You can still use the oil for cooking.
I once bought 15 dozen eggs and greased them for a trip to the Marquesas. Turned the whole carton over every few days. After three months, mostly in the tropics, 10 out of every dozen were still good.
Buy a canner and learn to can your own meat and fish. Then you can stock up when hunting and fishing are good ,or some farmer wants to get rid of his old hens, who are no longer laying. They get real cheap then, sometimes free. I've canned my share
No body wants them because that are tough but canning eliminates that problem.
Refrigeration is far more complicated and failure prone than keeping dry things dry, or canning, which doesn't need a constant source of energy.
The Namgeese tribe in Kingcome inlet used refrigeration for their salmon. When flooding cut the power, it all rotted . Even the grizzlies wouldn't touch it.


----------



## abarth

There seems to be a lot of good information at the 'The National Center for Home Food Preservation' ( nchfp.uga.edu ) National Center for Home Food Preservation[/url] . U of Georgia, Alabama and others. (I can't post full links yet. I'm sure you'll find it.)


----------



## travlin-easy

Having personally tasted just about every canned meat and fish product available, including some that were done locally by folks using special, time-tested recipes, I can unequivocally assure you that nearly all tasted somewhat like doggy doo! Canned fish, in particular, is really bad. And, for the most part, it pretty much smells bad as well. I'll take fresh or frozen every day of the week. And, because we're out cruising around on relatively slow-moving boats, often in near-shore waters, we have an excellent opportunity to catch lots of great tasting, fresh fish on a daily basis. 

Most of the canned meats I've taste tested have been mediocre at best. Spam has never been among my favorites, though while in the Navy I had to learn to love it or starve. Canned sausages just don't cut it - ever. Now, I do enjoy canned, smoked hams, but that's not something I will be doing myself. Besides, Hormel has this down to a science and really does a great job and sells it for a low price. Surely, no one in their right mind would can venison, or beef. Ugh! 

Canned chicken and turkey breasts are inexpensive and very, very good. You can use this in place of tuna for making a tuna-salad sandwich, add a little Old Bay Seafood Seasoning, some sweet pickled relish, mayonnaise and wow! It' pretty darned good. And it will last a long time in the refrigerator after it has been prepared.

Smoked fish and meats will last a long, long time in the refrigerator or freezer, and I have a great electric smoker here at home and a 50-pound bag of hickory chips. I've been smoking fish for more than 3 decades, my friends and family love it, and smoked fish used in place of canned tuna for fish salad sandwiches is out of this world. My personal favorites are salmon (of course), bluefish, Atlantic croaker, mahi, king mackerel, cero mackerel and Spanish mackerel. Oily species tend to be best for smoking, while species such as striped bass, catfish, bluegill, largemouth bass and pike do lend themselves well to this process. Those are best served fresh, either baked, broiled or fried. Lobster and shrimp do not work well for smoking and canning as well. Fortunately, non-oily species will freeze for extended periods when frozen in zip-lock bags filled with fresh water and retain their quality for months on end.

Smoked venison is pretty darned good as well. It makes great venison jerky, and a smoked venison roast sliced paper thin makes incredible Philly Cheese-steak subs. 

Smoked venison sausage, especially sweet Italian style, is outstanding. Lots of great recipes on the Internet for this. It also makes great Kielbasa too. Just don't put it in a can or jar - much better fresh or frozen.

Here's my recipe for Smoked Salmon:

SMOKED SALMON

There are lots of good recipes for smoked salmon. Unfortunately, there are not many great recipes for smoked fish, but this particular one seems to be the best of all. After more than five years of experimentation, using every species of fish available in the mid-Atlantic region, the recipe has been modified until it has finally reached the pinnacle of perfection. If you enjoy the flavor of smoked fish, especially oily species such as salmon, bluefish, Atlantic mackerel, king mackerel and cobia, you'll love this.

BRINE SOLUTION
2 qts. Water
1 cup dark brown sugar
4 tblsp. Old Bay Seafood Seasoning
4 tblsp. chopped, fresh Vidalia onions
½ cup kosher salt
1 tsp. garlic powder
1 tblsp. Montreal steak seasoning
6 drops Worcestershire sauce
1 tblsp. lemon juice

DIRECTIONS:
Thoroughly mix all ingredients of brine solution in a plastic container until salt and sugar are completely dissolved. Using a flat, Tupperware container pour in a small amount of bring solution (about one-inch deep). Cut fish fillets into inch-thick, four-inch squares and place them in the container in layers. After the first layer is in place, pour in enough brine solution to cover them, then add the second layer and continue until all the fillets are covered with brine. Cover the container using a sealable lid or Saran Wrap and refrigerate for five days. Be sure to agitate the container at least once daily to prevent the brine ingredients from settling–this is important. If there are several layers of fillets, it's also a good idea to occasionally separate them at least once daily to ensure all surfaces are exposed to the brine.

At the end of the brining period, remove the fillets and pat dry with paper towels. Place them on a broiler pan sprayed with Pam non-stick vegetable oil and bake in a 350-degree, preheated oven for 25 minutes, then place the fillets in the smoker. Using an electric smoker, smoke for approximately two hours using hickory chips. When the fillets are golden brown in color, remove them from the smoker, allow a few minutes for them to cool, then place them in Zip-Loc bags and refrigerate overnight before serving. While they taste good fresh from the smoker, the hickory flavor penetrates the meat completely when refrigerated in air-tight bags. The smoked fillets will last up to six weeks in the refrigerator and may be frozen for up to three months. Smoked fillets can be shredded and used with your favorite dip, or you can make a fantastic smoked salmon salad to be used as a substitute for tuna-salad. Enjoy!

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## wind_magic

travlineasy said:


> Surely, no one in their right mind would can venison, or beef. Ugh!


I have to disagree with you on a lot of what you wrote about canned meat trav, but especially this.

Canned hamburger is great.


----------



## Sashav

I buy meat and can it myself. Also I learned how to dry pork meat, it is really a money-saver.


----------



## Omatako

Brent Swain said:


> It was non stop from Tonga to BC , 5,000 miles , 4,000 of it against super squally trade winds, with a tropical storm thrown in for variety. There were few other options for getting home quickly. Australia is closer to 7,000 miles. 3420 wont get you to the Marquesas. As I left the first of april ,the trades were far more northerly than they were previously ,on the same trip in july, which had far more southerlies.
> No, a sailboat doesn't sail the rumb line against the trades ,with a tropical storm in the mix! Jet plane travellers dont get that part.
> Nice to avoid the super expensive food in French Polynesia, or New Caledonia, by bringing your own , or avoiding eating nothing much but coconuts, rice, fish and local fruit on Fanning. Not much else available there.


Sorry, my mistake, your posts leave the clear impression that you're a seasoned voyager, not one given to making the sort of choices that the described voyage includes.

So like I said, voyage of choice. You must have worked hard not to hit Hawaii.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Sashav said:


> I buy meat and can it myself. Also I learned how to dry pork meat, it is really a money-saver.


I dry other meats, but I've never dried pork. How do you do it? Same as any jerky, or do you do something else with it?


----------



## christian.hess

dont try and make serrano ham! jajaja


----------



## guitarguy56

christian.hess said:


> dont try and make serrano ham! jajaja


That's right Christian... not unless you have acorn-fed Ibérico Bellota pigs... otherwise the taste is never going to be as intense... it's no wonder these hams can fetch upwards of $60-100 per pound... and why it's razor thin sliced at deli's where it's sold. One shop in Barcelona we tried several varieties of Iberico hams and the costliest ham melted in your mouth... worth going just for the samples alone! That with some tempranillo wine is out of this world.

Christian knows...


----------



## guitarguy56

MikeOReilly said:


> I dry other meats, but I've never dried pork. How do you do it? Same as any jerky, or do you do something else with it?


Mike if you like Kalua Pork... you need to try this recipe. It's really easy and can be canned... we roasted the pork shoulder after marinating in salt/pepper/garlic/olive oil overnight... then put it in aluminum foil (we put our pork wrapped in banana leaves first, after cooking it has a tropical flavor) and add several drops of Texas Smoke flavor drops (about 2-4 drops depending on size) rub it in and cover it all up and put in oven rack, low temp about 350 Deg. F for about 4-5 hours... after it's done serve with Hawaiian side dishes... the rest can be canned and it's what my wifey did and we ate Kalua pork for several months... of course we cooked 3-4 huge Boston pork butts or picnic ham shoulders... this is what we would do for my daughter's Luau parties each year. We could never make enough so we make it almost every other month... yummy! The aroma of this Kalua pork is memorable at best... try it!


----------



## MikeOReilly

Geeze, between Gary and his smoked salmon, and Christian & GuitarGuy and your wonderful pork recipes, you've got me salivating. Feeling a bit like Pavlov's dog here . 

Thanks!


----------



## Minnesail

guitarguy56 said:


> That's right Christian... not unless you have acorn-fed Ibérico Bellota pigs... otherwise the taste is never going to be as intense... it's no wonder these hams can fetch upwards of $60-100 per pound... and why it's razor thin sliced at deli's where it's sold. One shop in Barcelona we tried several varieties of Iberico hams and the costliest ham melted in your mouth... worth going just for the samples alone! That with some tempranillo wine is out of this world.
> 
> Christian knows...


Isn't Iberian ham different than Serrano ham? I thought Serrano was just dried ham, whereas Jamón Ibérico had to come from a special breed of pigs finished on a diet of acorns?

And it's not likely to fit into a $500/month budget....


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## christian.hess

jaja of course it wont fit in the 500 a month budget...! BUT cheap serrano is around 15-20 dolars a pound can be spread over months

iberico ham or pata negra which is black hoofed acorn fed pics of a special bread are the most expensive

serrano like prosciutto covers the spectrum from cheap to expensive

also to note serrano ham can be paleta(front leg) or traditional rear

we got sidetracked a bit but the point was there are many versions of dried salted pork


----------



## mrhoneydew

guitarguy56 said:


> That's right Christian... not unless you have acorn-fed Ibérico Bellota pigs... otherwise the taste is never going to be as intense... it's no wonder these hams can fetch upwards of $60-100 per pound... and why it's razor thin sliced at deli's where it's sold. One shop in Barcelona we tried several varieties of Iberico hams and the costliest ham melted in your mouth... worth going just for the samples alone! That with some tempranillo wine is out of this world.
> 
> Christian knows...


Uncle! UNCLE! Please stop! The Tempranillo put it over the edge.


----------



## guitarguy56

Haven't forgotten this thread since we're now talking about one of my weaknesses Iberico hams! 

I've ordered packages of Iberico ham before ($45 package plus shipping) from 
LaTienda... they also have the entire hams and I must refrain as the best ham is approximately $1290 for one leg!!! This ham is now being served in some prime restaurants in N.Y.

I know... I know it breaks not only the $500 thread but also the $3000 threads...  :laugher


----------



## Don L

guitarguy56 said:


> I know... I know it breaks not only the $500 thread but also the $3000 threads...  :laugher


Maybe not, how long will a ham leg last?


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## Minnesail

guitarguy56 said:


> I know... I know it breaks not only the $500 thread but also the $3000 threads...  :laugher





Don0190 said:


> Maybe not, how long will a ham leg last?


If you coat the ham in vaseline and turn it every three days it'll last forever, no refrigeration needed!


----------



## guitarguy56

Don0190 said:


> Maybe not, how long will a ham leg last?


That depends on how it's served... if it's served for guests at a function/party or on a boat say... 1 pound... about the same as a pound of ham on a platter... the ham leg itself is about 14 lbs... so figure each pound you put out for your most special guests is putting out about $130-150 on that single platter!

The ham if you're a Iberico ham lover as I am would last two-three weeks at the most as part of the enjoyment is serving it to others.

It's not the ham for us to serve unless we are some Russian tycoon or uber rich company exec with money to burn... I'm not one of those.


----------



## guitarguy56

Minnesail said:


> If you coat the ham in vaseline and turn it every three days it'll last forever, no refrigeration needed!


Yuck!!!! The ham itself is already cured no need for refrigeration to start with. All these expensive hams were hanging from the ceiling at the place we stopped to try out the ham in Barcelona. A robbery of that store would be me grabbing a ham from the ceiling and running for dear life!


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## Lou452

I'll bite Country Ham from good old Tenn. and KY. is salted and smoked. A lot of the time it is from three to five years old before it is put out for sale. Some hams maybe ten and twelve year old hams. You can buy the fake vacuum packaged ham slices that are "country" ham It is not to expensive and it is a little dry if you are slicing and eating and not going to cook it. It is cut on the thick side. This kind of ham will fit into the $500 dollar budget. 
I am will be sure to ask for a sample of ham if I ever get across the ocean.  You make it sound delicious. Each location would have a local taste because the oak trees Red, White, and black put different amounts of tannin in the Acorn ? I assume they also have many types of oak ? 
We humans can even eat acorns after a lot of work. The prep work might burn more calories then you could get 
Kind Regards, Lou


----------



## guitarguy56

Lou452 said:


> I'll bite Country Ham from good old Tenn. and KY. is salted and smoked. A lot of the time it is from three to five years old before it is put out for sale. Some hams maybe ten and twelve year old hams. You can buy the fake vacuum packaged ham slices that are "country" ham It is not to expensive and it is a little dry if you are slicing and eating and not going to cook it. It is cut on the thick side. This kind of ham will fit into the $500 dollar budget.
> I am will be sure to ask for a sample of ham if I ever get across the ocean.  You make it sound delicious. Each location would have a local taste because the oak trees Red, White, and black put different amounts of tannin in the Acorn ? I assume they also have many types of oak ?
> We humans can even eat acorns after a lot of work. The prep work might burn more calories then you could get
> Kind Regards, Lou


Lou... Here is a good article on Iberico hams. You almost taste the ham reading the choice words. I implore you just once to find a source for a taste of this ham. You will never be the same... I've had all the other hams and there is no comparison. It's like a fine wine, best caviar, frois gras, etc.

The Most Delicious Ham in the World - Articles - Departures


----------



## wind_magic

guitarguy56 said:


> That depends on how it's served... if it's served for guests at a function/party or on a boat say... 1 pound... about the same as a pound of ham on a platter... the ham leg itself is about 14 lbs... so figure each pound you put out for your most special guests is putting out about $130-150 on that single platter!
> 
> The ham if you're a Iberico ham lover as I am would last two-three weeks at the most as part of the enjoyment is serving it to others.
> 
> It's not the ham for us to serve unless we are some Russian tycoon or uber rich company exec with money to burn... I'm not one of those.


GG, I think the poster was asking how long the ham leg will keep in storage w/o refrigeration.

(I could be wrong about that)


----------



## christian.hess

if uncut a long time...in wax paper firt covered with cheesecloth....

youcan do yourself a favor and with most dry cured meats simply vacum seal them and keep them in cool lockers if possible or even the bilge in sealed containers and it will last a very very long time like that

so pack small and open for single or 2 times uses...

chorizo, serrano ham, or dry cured ribs and the like are great for quick stews in the pressure cooker

we often cooked white beans with spanish paprika, some dried peppers, potatoes and a little slice of heaven in the form of dry cured meats...either a chorizo or a peice of ham or whatever and it was delcious mid ocean abd very different from the ever day tuna and rice or potato and tuna or mahi etc

however again you must love fish as we did...we had no issue eating fish evey day but every once in a while we clamored for meat so our captain had his seceret stash

ps. we once tried to cure lamb sausages we bought in yemen I beleive and it just didnt work...dont know what it was...they were delicious but maybe they had too much water in them even after cooking and they rot...too bad...we wanted to make some nice sausage and pepper dish common to italy and spain but it was a no go...so try out recipes before heading out

regarding iberico hams and serrano and the like...youre a different person once you taste black hoofed iberico ham

there is a before and after, kind of like when having that first GREAT wine or your first taste if white alba truffles or some good caviar etc...

peace


----------



## MikeOReilly

Cured sausages and meats last a very long time without refrigeration. We have a guy who makes moose and elk sausage up here, and it is wonderful stuff. We usually take a couple of large sausages with us when we go out. Keep them out of the sun, and in a coolish place, and they'll months. Seal them as Christian says, and they'll keep for a very long time. Years perhaps (I've never had one go off).

Sometimes I've bought cured sausages, and if I'm not happy with how dry they are, I dehydrate them further in my food drier.


----------



## christian.hess

you have a pic of your food drier bud?


----------



## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> you have a pic of your food drier bud?


I'm away from the house right now, so can't take a new picture Christian. Mine is very much like these ones, just a bit bigger. I have 12 trays, so I can process a lot of food at one time.










Here's an actual pic of mine in action. I've got some beef, mushrooms and zucchini on the go here.


----------



## killarney_sailor

Mike, you are just reinforcing stereotypes about Canada with moose being chased by the Mountie away from the hockey rink, eh.


----------



## christian.hess

good stuff mike good stuff


----------



## MikeOReilly

killarney_sailor said:


> Mike, you are just reinforcing stereotypes about Canada with moose being chased by the Mountie away from the hockey rink, eh.


Stereotype? I thought that was just normal life


----------



## Brent Swain

wind_magic said:


> I have to disagree with you on a lot of what you wrote about canned meat trav, but especially this.
> 
> Canned hamburger is great.


I love canned venison, as have any crew I have had,it's my staple, and beef when I can get it. I can all my venison in apple juice. 
The French, who like their meat raw, slightly warmed on the outside, have 30 times the food poisoning rate of the rest of the world!


----------



## Brent Swain

Omatako said:


> Sorry, my mistake, your posts leave the clear impression that you're a seasoned voyager, not one given to making the sort of choices that the described voyage includes.
> 
> So like I said, voyage of choice. You must have worked hard not to hit Hawaii.


I got homesick,the best solution for that is to go home, any way you can. I guess that is the cost of being from paradise.
In July there are lots of SE trades, even southerlies in April it is all Northeast. Didn't feel like waiting that long. I passed just east of Necker, and didn't consider Hawaii ( US waters) worth the stop.


----------



## SailPNW

A rock climber named Eric Beck once said:

"At either end of the social spectrum there lies a leisure class."


----------



## Lou452

SailPNW said:


> A rock climber named Eric Beck once said:
> 
> "At either end of the social spectrum there lies a leisure class."


profound wisdom, I am caught in the middle :laugher 
Kind regards, Lou


----------



## MikeOReilly

Lou452 said:


> profound wisdom, I am caught in the middle


Most of us are...

It's the gilded cage we build for ourselves. It's the seduction of our comfortable and directed lives. It is the path that is laid out for most people in our rich western societies.

Song Lyrics to Little Boxes, by Malvina Reynolds

It's hard to stray off the path ... why would we? It's comfortable and safe. Perhaps it doesn't live up to my dreams of youth, but those are silly childish fancies. Best to keep my nose to the grindstone, and keep building up that portfolio for that nirvana called retirement.

... Except by the time retirement rolls around too many of us have forgotten how to be free.

Once In A Lifetime Lyrics - Talking Heads

OK, I'll stop drinking now, and go to bed .


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## christian.hess

talking heads? classic

im hitting the cuba libres too

peace guys jajajaja


----------



## travlin-easy

Margarettas cure many ills!


----------



## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> talking heads? classic
> 
> im hitting the cuba libres too
> 
> peace guys jajajaja





travlineasy said:


> Margarettas cure many ills!


Thanks guys. Here's to you all. Cheers


----------



## Kostis

To back to the original poster. NO MAN YOU ARE NOT CRAZY OR ALONE. Everything is life is a compromise. For example someone who "can not live" without heating or going to restaurants, has to work more to make the money. Most of us, work for someone else. In my opinion what u do is this. You take a paper and you divide it into two sections. One the left are "Things I like" and on the right "Things I need"Every time you want to buy something see where it fits before you buy. For example. Do I like to have a cellphone or do I need it?? For me the answer was I like it but i dont need in order to make a living. So I dont have it anymore. Do i like or need a car loan? The answer is i like so i am not buying a new one. Do i like or need cable? Neither. If someone thinks I am suffering because I don't have cellphone or Cable is making a big mistakes. Do I enjoy restaurants? Not really. The food in restaurants is 99% below average. Most of you don't understand it i guess but if you were brought up in Europe I am sure you are cooking at home. 

Having said all this. If you are a minimalist that likes to have a minimum impact then it is good for you this life. If not you need the money. Neither way is bad. Personally i admire the dude with the dog. I don't know if i could go the full length, but for sure i like to work so i can live and not to live to work. 

I dont know who lives longer the guy that works for someone else or the guy that won't. I know that probably it looks a hell of a longer life to the first guy though.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Kostis said:


> One the left are "Things I like" and on the right "Things I need"Every time you want to buy something see where it fits before you buy.


Welcome to the discussion Kostis. You've hit on one of the key points in the pursuit of a modest cruising lifestyle. You've got to understand your _Wants_ vs your _Needs_.


----------



## Sal Paradise

Kostis said:


> To back to the original poster. NO MAN YOU ARE NOT CRAZY OR ALONE. Everything is life is a compromise. For example someone who "can not live" without heating


"can not live without heating" - that's me!! What a spoiled loser I am needing HEAT!!! LOL


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## Kostis

U need or want? Before i got married never had heating. Never stayed home either just to sleep. So i was getting under the blanket and i was fine. Plus i live in the south.


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## mrhoneydew

Sal Paradise said:


> "can not live without heating" - that's me!! What a spoiled loser I am needing HEAT!!! LOL


I _think_ what Kostis probably meant was an expensive heating system... i.e. diesel furnace with ducts, blower, etc. This thread is dedicated to discussing what we really need and how to get it more simply. Some smaller heat source and a sweater is a whole lot cheaper than the aforementioned system. However, if you simply _must_ lounge around your salon in your silk robe and you _must_ keep your cognac at a certain, perfect temperature as you consume it from your crystal snifter... perhaps the $3000/month thread is more your speed.


----------



## MikeOReilly

A good heat source can be a _need_ or a _want_ depending on where you cruise, and also what you're climatized to. I currently sail Lake Superior up here in northern Ontario. The water is always cold (~5-6 Celsius in the summer) which means we're always cool on the water. Without a heat source on a crossing (36 to 48 hours) the inside of the boat will become as cold as the water. That's pretty cool.

That said, we only carry a small alcohol heater (Origo) and only use it occasionally when out for the season. Partly this is b/c we're acclimatized to cold temperatures. Southern sailors would freeze their nuggies off  in temperatures where we just reach for a sweater.

The same goes for warm temperatures. I'm actually quite worried that as we head south (which we begin to do this summer), I will suffer greatly in the heat. I may be wishing for air-conditioning .


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## joethecobbler

in the spirit of the thread title.

heat - wood stove, boats aren't very big, it don't take much to heat one.
I built my wood stove for about $25.00
I can burn wood, charcoal, coal,and about anything else!
when I get to warmer weather I remove the stove, replace the port I exhaust the stove through and stow the stove till I need it again.
there's always something to burn. 
over the last couple years I've gotten a battery operated saws all to cut wood with. I charge the saw with the solar.
this is just one example of how to minimize the cost of cruising.
the longer you cruise, the easier it gets.


----------



## travlin-easy

I can tell you first hand, the older you get the colder you get. I thought I would freeze to death while sailing south on Chesapeake Bay during October of 2012 - air temperature of 45 to 47 degrees during the day, and even with a heavy coat, flannel shirt, sweater, heavy jeans, hood, I froze my a$$ off. I have a heat pump onboard, but no generator, YET! Consequently, there are a lot of nights I had to tie up in a marina instead of spending the night on the hook, with temperatures outside often dipping down to near freezing - even in North Carolina. 

While in Florida's Marathon Key, the humidity kicked up, but the temperatures at night were fairly comfortable. The humidity, however, would have really been harsh on my electronic music gear, therefore, I opted to tie up and use the air conditioning system most nights. There were a few nights when I played outdoors that the humidity was so high it actually dripped off he roof of the tiki hut like it was raining, but the stars were out and the sky was clear. 

The generator goes onboard in the next couple months, followed by 3G radar. Maybe I'm just getting soft in my old age, but damned, I enjoy those creature comforts.

Gary


----------



## Brent Swain

I had an oil stove on my last boat for a month or two, 38 years ago. I was always running out of oil just when I was frozen in a good spot ,with lots of game, fish, good water etc . So I converted it to wood and lived happily ever after . There are 4 brentboats anchored around me, all heating with wood, including one convert from oil. All tell me their boat is the most comfortable home they have ever lived in. All are insulated with a couple of inches of sprayfoam.
Beaches here are piled high with an endless supply of wood, free for the taking.
I built a woodstove for a guy in a plastic 40 footer, who told me he was spending $200 a month on oil. Friends on an Ericson 37 spend $280 a month on oil.


----------



## smurphny

travlineasy said:


> I can tell you first hand, *the older you get the colder you get.* I thought I would freeze to death while sailing south on Chesapeake Bay during October of 2012 - air temperature of 45 to 47 degrees during the day, and even with a heavy coat, flannel shirt, sweater, heavy jeans, hood, I froze my a$$ off. I have a heat pump onboard, but no generator, YET! Consequently, there are a lot of nights I had to tie up in a marina instead of spending the night on the hook, with temperatures outside often dipping down to near freezing - even in North Carolina.
> 
> While in Florida's Marathon Key, the humidity kicked up, but the temperatures at night were fairly comfortable. The humidity, however, would have really been harsh on my electronic music gear, therefore, I opted to tie up and use the air conditioning system most nights. There were a few nights when I played outdoors that the humidity was so high it actually dripped off he roof of the tiki hut like it was raining, but the stars were out and the sky was clear.
> 
> The generator goes onboard in the next couple months, followed by 3G radar. Maybe I'm just getting soft in my old age, but damned, I enjoy those creature comforts.
> 
> Gary


Ain't that the truth! My boat has an old Shipmate kero heater and I'm damned glad to have it at times. This winter in S. Florida, it got down in the thirties a few times so the stove got a stoked up quite often. It is VERY nice to have a warm, dry cabin. I am less and less willing to "rough it" every year


----------



## Kostis

Guys only you know what u need. I understand that the older u get the more comfort u need. What the OP is doing is remarkable in my opinion. But it is not for everyone..


----------



## travlin-easy

The way I look at it, I didn't work all these years to make sacrifices - been there, done that, got the Tee shirt! In the next decade I hope to piss away every dime of the children's inheritance, so the only thing that will be left when I take the dirt nap is an old sail boat (In great shape), the house, which is paid for, and all my music gear, all of which they can sell and piss away the proceeds as they wish.

Gary


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## MikeOReilly

I don't equate frugality with sacrifice. I choose a more frugal lifestyle so I can achieve greater amounts of the things I truly value: freedom, simplicity, a smaller impact on the Earth ... these are the things I want. If that means doing without some of the luxuries our society offers, then it's a fair trade to me.

Gary: Spend it all! As they saying goes, you can't take it with you. Enjoy life while you can. None of us are getting out of this alive .


----------



## manatee

Brent Swain said:


> I had an oil stove on my last boat for a month or two, 38 years ago. I was always running out of oil just when I was frozen in a good spot ,with lots of game, fish, good water etc . So I converted it to wood and lived happily ever after . There are 4 brentboats anchored around me, all heating with wood, including one convert from oil. All tell me their boat is the most comfortable home they have ever lived in. All are insulated with a couple of inches of sprayfoam.
> Beaches here are piled high with an endless supply of wood, free for the taking.
> I built a woodstove for a guy in a plastic 40 footer, who told me he was spending $200 a month on oil. Friends on an Ericson 37 spend $280 a month on oil.


Woodburners, FYI:

KIRVES: Heikki Vipukirves

#include{std-disclaimer}


----------



## UnionPacific

I sat down last week and came to the realization that one person can eat well on $150 a month. So we will be budgeting $300 for food per month for our trip. That would leave us $200 a month for fuel, moorings ect. Most likely fuel thou. Unless we need repairs we will not be stopping at a dock.


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## mrhoneydew

$300/mo for 2 people is great! As for the $500/mo total, it's more of a guideline anyway. You may find that some months you spend a bit more, some a bit less. But averaged out over the year your frugality should pay off. Fair Winds! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## UnionPacific

mrhoneydew said:


> $300/mo for 2 people is great! As for the $500/mo total, it's more of a guideline anyway. You may find that some months you spend a bit more, some a bit less. But averaged out over the year your frugality should pay off. Fair Winds!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Our actual budget will be $700 a month. trying to stay under $500 will allow us to stay out longer. $200 each month will go back into the cruising kitty when it is not used. trying to put enough aside for a 5 year circumnavigation. it would be 7 if we stay under 500 a month.


----------



## Kostis

Dont leave anything for the kids hahahahaha. 

I count money as hours lost. I want to live my life not to make life and then realize i am too old to enjoy anything


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## killarney_sailor

UnionPacific said:


> I sat down last week and came to the realization that one person can eat well on $150 a month. So we will be budgeting $300 for food per month for our trip. That would leave us $200 a month for fuel, moorings ect. Most likely fuel thou. Unless we need repairs we will not be stopping at a dock.


Depends where you are. You can eat well in Ecuador for a lot less than $300 a month, in French Polynesia and Australia not so. People who are cruising on very low budgets are spending a lot less than $300 a month per couple.

I think your $200 a month for everything else is very optimistic. You have country bureaucracy charges that can be several hundred dollars. You can take the $1 bus to the store, but probably would like to have a cab on the way back with all you buy. In many places, it is a shame if you don't take advantage of the opportunity to see something of the country. Being in South Africa and not going to somewhere like Kruger NP to see lions, et al would be a shame. While mentioning South Africa which is a major part of any circumnavigation these days, there are almost no places to anchor (precious few harbours for that matter). When we anchored in Durban we had to pay for that. There are just a lot of things that cost money when you cruise. Beer in Ecuador was 60 cents for a 580 ml bottle ($1 to $2 in a restaurant) - a great bargain but still 60 cents.

You will need repairs and in most places boat stuff costs more than in the US, or has to be shipped in, with attendant freight and customs charges. We had a stay strand break in Indonesia (It was new when we left, so was three years old). Indonesia has no (as in zero) riggers with a population of 250 million people. Replacement was either Australia or Singapore. We sailed to Christmas I (Oz territory) and had the stay sent from Perth. Shipping was $200, plus the cost of the stay - that was $500 that was not part of the budget but is part of cruising.

We don't deny ourselves and generally live reasonably frugally and probably averaged about $1300/month not counting boat insurance, flights home (both are optional of courses). We also have a substantial emergency fund for things like major repairs or backpacking for a month in South America (and paying for the boat to be in a secure location of course).


----------



## MikeOReilly

We start our full-time journey this summer (if the ice ever leaves Lake Superior ), but I'm pretty sure we're going to be quite a bit above the aspirational $500/month level for a while. Just getting through the Great Lakes will force us to use more marinas that I would like, and we'll also be motoring more than I want. That, combined with having to shop at Canadian and northern US prices will mean our bills will be high.

I hope once we get through the Great Lakes, and also as we learn more, that we can bring our expenses down. But I fully expect to be upwards of $1000/month for the first year or so (and also have a substantial emergency kitty as well).


----------



## PBzeer

A cruising budget is kinda like a cruising boat, depends on the comfort level you want. Thing is, if you get off the boat anywhere there are things to buy, you'll most likely end up spending money. Most of the time, that's the reason for getting off the boat. Groceries, laundry, fuel, parts, souvenirs, museums/tours, that restaurant you've always heard about, etc.

Unless you're circumnavigating, plan high and learn how to bring it down (if that suits what you want, once you're active). You're likely to find though, that what seems reasonable while planning, doesn't go quite as far as you expected.


----------



## UnionPacific

killarney_sailor said:


> Depends where you are. You can eat well in Ecuador for a lot less than $300 a month, in French Polynesia and Australia not so. People who are cruising on very low budgets are spending a lot less than $300 a month per couple.
> 
> I think your $200 a month for everything else is very optimistic. You have country bureaucracy charges that can be several hundred dollars. You can take the $1 bus to the store, but probably would like to have a cab on the way back with all you buy. In many places, it is a shame if you don't take advantage of the opportunity to see something of the country. Being in South Africa and not going to somewhere like Kruger NP to see lions, et al would be a shame. While mentioning South Africa which is a major part of any circumnavigation these days, there are almost no places to anchor (precious few harbours for that matter). When we anchored in Durban we had to pay for that. There are just a lot of things that cost money when you cruise. Beer in Ecuador was 60 cents for a 580 ml bottle ($1 to $2 in a restaurant) - a great bargain but still 60 cents.
> 
> You will need repairs and in most places boat stuff costs more than in the US, or has to be shipped in, with attendant freight and customs charges. We had a stay strand break in Indonesia (It was new when we left, so was three years old). Indonesia has no (as in zero) riggers with a population of 250 million people. Replacement was either Australia or Singapore. We sailed to Christmas I (Oz territory) and had the stay sent from Perth. Shipping was $200, plus the cost of the stay - that was $500 that was not part of the budget but is part of cruising.
> 
> We don't deny ourselves and generally live reasonably frugally and probably averaged about $1300/month not counting boat insurance, flights home (both are optional of courses). We also have a substantial emergency fund for things like major repairs or backpacking for a month in South America (and paying for the boat to be in a secure location of course).


We will be planning what countries we stop at and what ones we skip. When we have the tally, that much will be set aside just for check in. Boat maintenance will be a separate fund. We will carry a inventory of spares that is large enough to replace most of the breakable parts of the boat. Including a full rebuild kit for the generator, and everything except pistons for the main engine. We will have a spare main sail and we already have 3 jibs. Rigging is going to be redone, where needed, and we will carry enough amsteel to re rig an entire mast. pretty much everything else we will have two of, short of the air conditioner, SSB, and stereo system.


----------



## christian.hess

UnionPacific said:


> We will be planning what countries we stop at and what ones we skip. When we have the tally, that much will be set aside just for check in. Boat maintenance will be a separate fund. We will carry a inventory of spares that is large enough to replace most of the breakable parts of the boat. Including a full rebuild kit for the generator, and everything except pistons for the main engine. We will have a spare main sail and we already have 3 jibs. Rigging is going to be redone, where needed, and we will carry enough amsteel to re rig an entire mast. pretty much everything else we will have two of, short of the air conditioner, SSB, and stereo system.


JUST REMEMBER

sometimes you have to stop in places you didnt PLAN to...that includes countries and shady places, ports, etc...not originally on the "schedule"

it happens and dont think it wont happen to you

ps. you also cant have everything to fix your boat...you will find you will trade for a spares, or have to wait for a shipment...or need to buy special equipment or that ever so imprtnat oringy thingy that you just need to get going again

etc..etc..etc...


----------



## UnionPacific

christian.hess said:


> JUST REMEMBER
> 
> sometimes you have to stop in places you didnt PLAN to...that includes countries and shady places, ports, etc...not originally on the "schedule"
> 
> it happens and dont think it wont happen to you
> 
> ps. you also cant have everything to fix your boat...you will find you will trade for a spares, or have to wait for a shipment...or need to buy special equipment or that ever so imprtnat oringy thingy that you just need to get going again
> 
> etc..etc..etc...


No doubt. We have a buffer. $40,000 set aside for repairs that are unseen. that would even cover a demasting, hard grounding ect. 
We are also hoping to charter parts of the trip for people who want to see the out of the way places.
I am considering carrying a 10,000# lifting bag, but I am not settled on that yet.


----------



## christian.hess

that amount is more than most ever have btw

thats awesome

keep it and try not to dig into it too much

a lot of cruisers after circumnavigatung have a hard time adapting to the "real" world once again...and having some left over to start a business or buy a car and rent or whatever is a great way to make adapting back not so hard an daunting

THATS IF YOU DECIDE TO NOT KEEP GOING AND GOING AND GOING ETC....


----------



## killarney_sailor

Some of the countries that are the most expensive are inconveniently placed so you can't skip them. Panama is the obvious one, but Oz is pricey and South Africa is pricey because of the need for marina stays.


----------



## UnionPacific

killarney_sailor said:


> Some of the countries that are the most expensive are inconveniently placed so you can't skip them. Panama is the obvious one, but Oz is pricey and South Africa is pricey because of the need for marina stays.


The indian ocean is where things get really sketchy for us. We want to see madagascar, but also the Med. I want to see india, but only if things are or for cruisers at that point. We will be flexible with our plan and keep our selves up to date with the latest news as we move about.

I personally want to live full time in the pitcairn islands. I am developing a business plan that will work for the island. the wife is not sold on it. so we must visit.


----------



## christian.hess

we had the best time in sri lanka(if you dont want to go to india) and it was a year or so after the tsunami...still it was my favourite country by far...the smells, the food, the people and the country itself is beatifull

maldives is a must for me

I really wanted to go to the cocos and straight to africa but we ventured instead to oman, yemen and the red sea 

we stopped in eritrea, sudan, egypt..I oved the red sea and its people

opinions vary on this subject

yemen was also a spectacular country for me, sanaa the capital was a big hit for me...I celebrated my 28th birthday I think in a 500 year old little hotel or something...

we dined on dates, some beer and had an awesome dinner...we all suffered the next day though

btw the best chicken ive ever had is yemeni chicken...they roast them in special ovens along with their version of flat bread...and the rice is a mix of special grains, pasta and whatnot and its so soft and easy to eat

that and their CHAI which is a crude version of english tea and milk done to perfection on the streets...we did the whole afternoon tea and backgammon on the streets deal with the locals

it was such a different place...Ill always remember it

to me the desert and its people are second only to the inmense lonely sea in awesomeness

thats awesome you plan to visit pitcairn..Ive always wanted to do a "quick" circumnav via lonely and seldom visited places..not on the normal routes...

jajaja

someday!

peace


----------



## killarney_sailor

UnionPacific said:


> The indian ocean is where things get really sketchy for us. We want to see madagascar, but also the Med. I want to see india, but only if things are or for cruisers at that point. We will be flexible with our plan and keep our selves up to date with the latest news as we move about.
> 
> I personally want to live full time in the pitcairn islands. I am developing a business plan that will work for the island. the wife is not sold on it. so we must visit.


Apparently it is very difficult (verging on the impossible) to get to move to Pitcairn (one island only) full-time. You can get a visa (not sure they call it that) for an extended stay (basically counted in terms of number of visits by the supply boat) up to about one year. The exception is if you have a position on the island like school teacher.The job term is 2 or 3 years for that. The Administrator is a Brit and the other people that go to work there are from NZ.

When we started our circumnav, people were still going the Red Sea route although it was getting sketchy. I was torn about which way to go. Having been to South Africa I can totally recommend the experience. The only nasty bit is getting from Mauritius to Richards Bay. Going along the coast of SA is not a problem unless you are foolish. Going to Madagascar is not a problem at all. The last exclusion know I heard about from the naval forces in the area is west of 78°E and north of 10°S (it was 12°S when we were there so it is getting better).


----------



## UnionPacific

christian.hess said:


> we had the best time in sri lanka(if you dont want to go to india) and it was a year or so after the tsunami...still it was my favourite country by far...the smells, the food, the people and the country itself is beatifull
> 
> maldives is a must for me
> 
> I really wanted to go to the cocos and straight to africa but we ventured instead to oman, yemen and the red sea
> 
> we stopped in eritrea, sudan, egypt..I oved the red sea and its people
> 
> opinions vary on this subject
> 
> yemen was also a spectacular country for me, sanaa the capital was a big hit for me...I celebrated my 28th birthday I think in a 500 year old little hotel or something...
> 
> we dined on dates, some beer and had an awesome dinner...we all suffered the next day though
> 
> btw the best chicken ive ever had is yemeni chicken...they roast them in special ovens along with their version of flat bread...and the rice is a mix of special grains, pasta and whatnot and its so soft and easy to eat
> 
> that and their CHAI which is a crude version of english tea and milk done to perfection on the streets...we did the whole afternoon tea and backgammon on the streets deal with the locals
> 
> it was such a different place...Ill always remember it
> 
> to me the desert and its people are second only to the inmense lonely sea in awesomeness
> 
> thats awesome you plan to visit pitcairn..Ive always wanted to do a "quick" circumnav via lonely and seldom visited places..not on the normal routes...
> 
> jajaja
> 
> someday!
> 
> peace


We have a stateroom with private head and shower available for charter


----------



## UnionPacific

killarney_sailor said:


> Apparently it is very difficult (verging on the impossible) to get to move to Pitcairn (one island only) full-time. You can get a visa (not sure they call it that) for an extended stay (basically counted in terms of number of visits by the supply boat) up to about one year. The exception is if you have a position on the island like school teacher.The job term is 2 or 3 years for that. The Administrator is a Brit and the other people that go to work there are from NZ.


They are currently seeking about 25 new residents. However with the whole child rape thing I think it may be hard. Those men should be dead within a dozen years thou.



> When we started our circumnav, people were still going the Red Sea route although it was getting sketchy. I was torn about which way to go. Having been to South Africa I can totally recommend the experience. The only nasty bit is getting from Mauritius to Richards Bay. Going along the coast of SA is not a problem unless you are foolish. Going to Madagascar is not a problem at all. The last exclusion know I heard about from the naval forces in the area is west of 78°E and north of 10°S (it was 12°S when we were there so it is getting better).


Yeah, We travel armed. So I do not worry much about it. Thou with our arms we cannot visit a few places. In fact we have 0 plans to stop in mexico. Between the anti-gun stance, the piracy, high theft, and bad murder rate, I have lost any will to stop. Thou belize would be nice as would costa rica.


----------



## christian.hess

hmmm weird info there

belize and honduras have a much more violent reputation than mexico

but again those stats involve at least for us in central america(honduras, el salvador, and guatemala) a lot of gang related violence that affects very very little any cruisers

for example rio dulce has more violence than barillas in el salvador, yet el salvador as a whole has more gang related deaths than guatemala....both have very bad stats in general


I stressed on another thread that ticking a country off a list based on stats is using the wrong tool for the job...

mexico despite the whole agace deal and embargos and dumb officials these last months is still regarded as one of the easiest and nicest places to cruise on the pacific coast...


----------



## UnionPacific

When they allow guns on foreign cruising boats I may reconsider. I will not go unprotected and become a story about a wife getting a scar for life on half of her face. Its too crazy out here today to be unarmed, at least for us. I would rather shoot an intruder, roll them off the side and motor, then be a victim.


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## christian.hess

I understand that but use the right tool for the job is what I was implying...ask cruisers and get local info...

much better than checking cnn or wikpidedia on the latest news story

peace


----------



## UnionPacific

christian.hess said:


> I understand that but use the right tool for the job is what I was implying...ask cruisers and get local info...
> 
> much better than checking cnn or wikpidedia on the latest news story
> 
> peace


Ah, gottcha. I will be using noonsite and forums for up to date information. That is how I heard about the mexican tax issue. Scarry stuff, and I have no idea where my HIN is, if I even have one.


----------



## christian.hess

back to voyaging cheaply

how many of you guys currently cruising are doing so engineless or with small outboards...


also who out there currently anchors by sail?

just for the hell of it?

just wondering...


----------



## UnionPacific

I have often wondered, can you properly set an anchor just using the sail? 
Typically I back down on it full throttle... ?


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## christian.hess

full throttle is too much most times at least on my previous boats

I have done the anchor by sail many times especially on smaller boats...I just throw it over the side and dropped sails a few seconds later and bam...

but was wondering if any cruisers out there are doing it these days...or engineless sailing

and yes please no reference to the pardeys...we know about them Im talking about any of you guys out there, now and where?


----------



## bigdogandy

I drop anchor from sail occasionally - usually when there is a good enough breeze to be able to rely on the force of the wind pushing the boat back to help set the anchor. There's something satisfying about sailing into an anchorage, picking may way through to the right spot, and then stopping the boat under sail to drop the hook (I do roll up the jib first, though).

Sailing off the hook is equally satisfying, in my opinion.


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## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> Yeah, We travel armed. So I do not worry much about it. Thou with our arms we cannot visit a few places. In fact we have 0 plans to stop in mexico. Between the anti-gun stance, the piracy, high theft, and bad murder rate, I have lost any will to stop. Thou belize would be nice as would costa rica.


Bringing your guns into Belize will be somewhat 'inconvenient', if not rather counter-productive in terms of self-defense...



> Every person entering Belize with firearms or ammunition in his
> possession shall forthwith deposit them with the officer or constable in
> charge of a police station.
> 
> (2) The firearms or ammunition so deposited shall remain in the
> custody of the police officer in charge of the police station until the person
> depositing them either produces to such police officer a licence under this
> Act or satisfies such police officer that he is about to depart forthwith from
> Belize, whereupon the firearms or ammunition shall be returned to him.
> 
> http://www.unlirec.org/Documents/caribe/Belize/FirearmsActChapter143oftheSubstantiveLawofBelize.pdf


Oh, well... The $10/person/day anchoring fees being randomly assessed throughout Belize were probably gonna blow your budget, anyway...


----------



## UnionPacific

JonEisberg said:


> Bringing your guns into Belize will be somewhat 'inconvenient', if not rather counter-productive in terms of self-defense...
> 
> Oh, well... The $10/person/day anchoring fees being randomly assessed throughout Belize were probably gonna blow your budget, anyway...


We are not going to anchor in places that our boat may be robbed while we are away. again, all fees for countries will already be set aside.

Sorry this is not a gun debate thread.


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## killarney_sailor

In our travels we have met two boats doing it engineless. Both are single handers. One in a Bristol 27. Last heard of him in New Zealand when his family got into a panic because they had not heard from him for some months and started a search. He was fine, just reclusive. The other was a guy in the San Blas with about a 33' that he had converted to a junk-rigged ketch (schooner?). The masts were flag poles and if he was not careful they would break so he had used several flag poles. His dinghy was a dugout canoe. Both these guys were managing on less than $500 for sure. I saw both anchor under sail with little drama.

We have only anchored under sail once in a serious situation. Anchored at Mosselbai, South Africa on an almost lee shore with about 20 knots of wind as it was just dark. Also there were several small mooring balls randomly placed in the area. If we had not got a good hook the first time (we did) I think we could have pulled up the anchor and gotten clear of shore, but it would have been 'interesting'.


----------



## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> how many of you guys currently cruising are doing so engineless or with small outboards...also who out there currently anchors by sail?


Not engineless, but we do anchor under sail on occasion -- perhaps 10% of the time. Most of the time this has been by choice, although on our previous boat (with an unreliable Atomic-4) we did it a few times out of necessity.

I like to anchor under sail now, as much to maintain the skill as to avoid the noise and wastefulness of running the diesel. But I admit we only do it when we're pretty confident of the conditions.

Same goes with sailing off the anchor -- except we do this nearly 1/2 the time.


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## Kostis

The only thing it seems strange to me is that you guys, when you budget, you think that food costs this much and then you dont budget for sightseeing and day traveling in the country. I mean that is the reason why somebody would cruise, I would think. Maybe there is something i am missing but I wouldn't want to loose 3 years of my life to go from port to port. 

Anyway, I think eating is cheap anywhere you are. All you have to do i learn how to cook from scratch, Eat a lot of legumes, dont eat meat (i am vegetarian) so you don't have to refrigerate, eat raw!!!! Try Raw Vegan diets. You will be healthy, political correct and it doesnt cost almost anything at least out of US. Plus it tastes so much better. 

A lot of people think that they need meat and THAT is making the food budget rise. Truth is you don't need meat. There are millions of vegans out there for years or for life. I think they are the living testimony that meat is just a nasty habit, that imprisons in horrible conditions animals, torture them and slaughter and exploit them for your FUN. Please consider going vegetarian, please. Do it for the lives of those sweet animals. Save your souls, save their lives and budget so much better.


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## christian.hess

actually going vegetarian would increase your food budget especially voyaging across oceans...you lose out on the free fish...amd would have to up rice, beans, canned food and veggies which like a lot of us have mentioned arent the best

actually fresh stuff(not all veggies of course) is the first to perish...tomatoes for example

not trying to argue the point(I was vegetarian and didnt eat fish on my first voyage) and it got boring fast

all it took was a visit with family and friends down here for christmas while during the trip and see a huge ass turkey and stewed hen and meat to take me to the dark side again

jajaja

also a lot of people enjoy the physical sailing part, the actual crossings...and do exactly that hop from port to port or planned spots along the way briefly and go back out to sea again

cruising can be distinguished from crossings or voyaging this way...

crusing like you say has many side distractions like sightseeing travelling inland, visiting museums etc...


----------



## Kostis

Look eating a fish you catch is not bad. I am a vegetarian because i hate how we farm animals and how we exploit them and OWN them. Is like trying to buy and sell the air. It doesnt belong to us. same with animals. So a wild fish is different. Is survival. So on a long passage IF i could catch something i would eat it. Other than this exception NOPE. You dont need it anyways on shore. 
By the way. What do you need to can?


----------



## christian.hess

what do you mean?

there is a LOT of info on this thread, especially mike and other related to canning, drying foods, vacum sealing foods etc...

what I was pointing out was strictly from a logistcal standpoint and not a political, or religous or social point...

I was vegetarian for much the same reasons you expound, having said that it would be VERY VERY hard to cruise on a vegetarian, or vegan lifestyle on a boat...

you say if you would catch something you would eat it right? well thats fishing...simple

if your budhist it would go something like if something has died naturally the meat is of worth but the soul has left the body, so I accept this meat....

fishing is actually killing, BUT its the acceptance of sustenance that makes it acceptable at least to me now

I for example HATE sport fisherman...I find it insulting to the animal, much more so than living from their meat...

if you think about it...butt thats just me

ps I too agree on how we farm and produce meatfrom animals, I think its very very insulting, especially mass raised chicken, beef, pork etc...having said that thats a whole different topic


----------



## Kostis

Killing out of necessity and killing for fun is different. Also consuming meat when it is not survival is blaspheme


----------



## MikeOReilly

As an omnivore humans have evolved to eat just about anything. I personally like meat, but I'm just as happy with beans and veggies. Once were out for a while we tend to slide mostly into a vegetarian diet. 

We eat what we catch, and if I could learn to hunt (and was in the right places) I might even go after wild land game. But mostly we just kill helpless vegetables and fruits ... they're a lot easier to catch .

BTW, you don't need to refrigerate meat. We carry dried meats (which we dry ourselves). Many people can meat. We also dry a lot of veggies and fruits. Right now the fridge is mostly used to keep the beer cold .


----------



## christian.hess

I find it very very hard to criticise hunters that live off the land or sea...anywhere in the world...its about respect towards mother nature...you can see it when they eat the meat how grateful they are...

killing an animal and stuffing a head on your wall is exactly that blasphemy...


----------



## smurphny

I wouldn't depend on catching fish for sustenance when crossing oceans. There are few fish in deep offshore water except for large migrating species who are heading to new inshore hunting grounds. Fish go where schools of bait fish exist, not much beyond the continental shelves. Trolling small gear in your wake offshore usually just results in losing lure and line. 
I keep a deep sea rig aboard but fish, like tuna, that are abundant in the ocean inside the continental shelf of the East Coast are just too big to process aboard a small sailboat. It's a dilemma. There would be too much waste catching a 50# "football" tuna because I have no room nor enough refrigeration to store that much meat. Last year I wound up cutting off a sizable tuna because I knew much of it would have been wasted. As much as I love fishing, aboard the sailboat, the question is, "What am I going to do with it?" Unless going home where the freezer lives, catching larger fish on the boat is out of the question.


----------



## MikeOReilly

I've never understood the desire to kill for sport. I've got no problem with hunting for meat, but the idea of hanging a bunch of heads or rugs as trophies sickens me. 

I can understand the thrill and challenge of the hunt (although most "hunters do little of this anymore), and I certainly understand hanging out in wilderness and being with friends. I just don't understand the need to kill. Take a camera with a 50mm lens. If you can get a good photo you could have killed, and you still get a great "trophy" in the form of a great image.


----------



## Kostis

why do u need to shoot? if u r that close to shoot a great picture u are close enough to kill. So a picture of a LIVE animal can be your trophy. And u will have respect. 

Mass murders are places they butcher millions of animals and the businesses selling them like McDonalds and stuff. And of course you consumer. Is there a bigger sin that surf and turf? You need multiple animals to satisfy your greed?


----------



## christian.hess

smurphny said:


> I wouldn't depend on catching fish for sustenance when crossing oceans. There are few fish in deep offshore water except for large migrating species who are heading to new inshore hunting grounds. Fish go where schools of bait fish exist, not much beyond the continental shelves. Trolling small gear in your wake offshore usually just results in losing lure and line.
> I keep a deep sea rig aboard but fish, like tuna, that are abundant in the ocean inside the continental shelf of the East Coast are just too big to process aboard a small sailboat. It's a dilemma. There would be too much waste catching a 50# "football" tuna because I have no room nor enough refrigeration to store that much meat. Last year I wound up cutting off a sizable tuna because I knew much of it would have been wasted. As much as I love fishing, aboard the sailboat, the question is, "What am I going to do with it?" Unless going home where the freezer lives, catching larger fish on the boat is out of the question.


the only ocean we went a little "dry" if you will from fisihing is he indian...we crossed in the northern part and we caught maybe a wahoo...as soon as we entered the red sea though it was game on!

usually sharks ate our catch before we could real it in...we were too slow

way back when I posted some simple tuna drying recipes...

a 50 pounder is far from too big to process...yes on a 200-300 pounder but a 50 punder will yield 10-15 pound loins that are perfect for the mojama recipe I posted a while back

and since a lot of guys are cruising with frezeers these days well its hard to argue against frezzing it then.

with that said we actually caught more mahi mahi, and wahoo than tuna...the lure and distance from the stern wave, wash makes a difference

wahoo was delicious, as was the mahi

tuna we actually did get a little bord of it when fresh...we did not waste though or throw it away once hooked...that was a big no no in our book

we did lose a bigun once in the pacific that was huge for us, right as we were going to spear it...we missed, and he went down...very alive


----------



## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> I've never understood the desire to kill for sport. I've got no problem with hunting for meat, but the idea of hanging a bunch of heads or rugs as trophies sickens me.
> 
> I can understand the thrill and challenge of the hunt (although most "hunters do little of this anymore), and I certainly understand hanging out in wilderness and being with friends. I just don't understand the need to kill. Take a camera with a 50mm lens. If you can get a good photo you could have killed, and you still get a great "trophy" in the form of a great image.


I find it insulting and vety ungratefull...I have learned to appreciate nature and if need be rely on it to survive...I have no qualms or issues no with hunting for sustenance...

I posted a while back that my spanish friends went on a wild boar hunting trip with some locals in french polynesia...that experience would be lfe changing for most people I think

kind of going to the jungle tribes in papua new guinea and seeing some of the last living cannibals

you just cant deny those kind of experiences


----------



## killarney_sailor

Christian, we had a completely different fishing experience in the Indian Ocean, although we were a lot further south. We caught more than enough magi-mahi to keep us going. We would catch one (6 to 20 pounds) and then not fish until that one was gone and until we felt like we wanted to eat fish again. In the Atlantic we had not one fish from Cape Town to the Caribbean. It was bizarre. We tried different lures (including the battle-scarred ones from the Indian, new ones from a store in South Africa that the guy said were the ones), different distances from the boat. Nada.


----------



## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> I find it insulting and vety ungratefull...I have learned to appreciate nature and if need be rely on it to survive...I have no qualms or issues no with hunting for sustenance...
> 
> I posted a while back that my spanish friends went on a wild boar hunting trip with some locals in french polynesia...that experience would be lfe changing for most people I think
> 
> kind of going to the jungle tribes in papua new guinea and seeing some of the last living cannibals
> 
> you just cant deny those kind of experiences


I understand what you're saying. I live in northern Ontario where Native North Americans still live and practice many traditional skills. Some of these involve hunting as a cultural experience. But here their is usually (not always, but usually) a fundamental respect for wilderness and the balances of Nature.

I also see plenty of tourists coming up here to go on that _life changing_ bear or moose hunt. I have no doubt it is a significant event for the tourist-hunters, and it certainly provides income for our local outfitters and guides. But I still say take a camera. You get the same thrill, the same challenge, and the same support for local economies. Killing for sport makes no sense to me.


----------



## christian.hess

killarney_sailor said:


> Christian, we had a completely different fishing experience in the Indian Ocean, although we were a lot further south. We caught more than enough magi-mahi to keep us going. We would catch one (6 to 20 pounds) and then not fish until that one was gone and until we felt like we wanted to eat fish again. In the Atlantic we had not one fish from Cape Town to the Caribbean. It was bizarre. We tried different lures (including the battle-scarred ones from the Indian, new ones from a store in South Africa that the guy said were the ones), different distances from the boat. Nada.


definitelu has to do with the latitudes from what I have read from others experiences...the northern part from leaving madlives to oman was zilch...as we got closer to the red sea...and especially once entered it was game on

I haveheard the same about the med in some areas and the atlantic...there are DEAD zones if you will for fishing...like nothing is there

in the pacific especially the equatorial route we never lacked fish and often took the lure out for weeks at a time since we had enough salted fish and or fresh...or simply we gt bored and wanted something else to eat like pasta or dried meats...like chorizo stew

*about lures the one that worked the best for anyting was a simple white and red wood(cork) lure that looked hafld squid and half fish, it was cylindrical...*

edit felt I should point out was has been stated as the best type of lure all rounder(read travlins post)...many people and myself feel the same way

the rubber shiny lures were only good for coastal waters, in fact too damed good for small tuna only

my captain never lost that red and white lure and still has it sitting in greece after the circumnav

they do not fish now...as where they are in the med he says they dont voyage enough to take the rods and spools out, jajaja


----------



## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> I understand what you're saying. I live in northern Ontario where Native North Americans still live and practice many traditional skills. Some of these involve hunting as a cultural experience. But here their is usually (not always, but usually) a fundamental respect for wilderness and the balances of Nature.
> 
> I also see plenty of tourists coming up here to go on that _life changing_ bear or moose hunt. I have no doubt it is a significant event for the tourist-hunters, and it certainly provides income for our local outfitters and guides. But I still say take a camera. You get the same thrill, the same challenge, and the same support for local economies. Killing for sport makes no sense to me.


agree completely

im huge on documentaries and the last one I saw about hunting was about one of those life changing wild game tours...

I think those are offensive as they specifcally targeted a white mountain goat or something, a ram of sorts that was near extinct...this was in montana or some wild awesome place in the us...

I also have mixed feeling with whale hunting...tradition is a huge part of this but if you eat the meat, and use the oil, and even sell the bones that are used for artesanry and neclaces etc...I really dont see the whole evil thing

Im on the fence about that one...but again its life not sport

the same with circuses with wildflife I find that insulting to the animal, especially when trained to do such stupid stuff...

id much rather sit in a tree waiting for that monkey to show up in its element...

much more satisfying

anyways back to fishing and less "social" discussions jajaja

peace


----------



## smurphny

christian.hess said:


> the only ocean we went a little "dry" if you will from fisihing is he indian...we crossed in the northern part and we caught maybe a wahoo...as soon as we entered the red sea though it was game on!
> 
> usually sharks ate our catch before we could real it in...we were too slow
> 
> way back when I posted some simple tuna drying recipes...
> 
> a 50 pounder is far from too big to process...yes on a 200-300 pounder but a 50 punder will yield 10-15 pound loins that are perfect for the mojama recipe I posted a while back
> 
> and since a lot of guys are cruising with frezeers these days well its hard to argue against frezzing it then.
> 
> with that said we actually caught more mahi mahi, and wahoo than tuna...the lure and distance from the stern wave, wash makes a difference
> 
> wahoo was delicious, as was the mahi
> 
> tuna we actually did get a little bord of it when fresh...we did not waste though or throw it away once hooked...that was a big no no in our book
> 
> we did lose a bigun once in the pacific that was huge for us, right as we were going to spear it...we missed, and he went down...very alive


Actually, shark species are edible in a pinch. Even Dogfish (sand sharks) are edible. Mako is as good as any fish. Sharks are what usually take lures in the wake and run off all your line. I'm surprised that you were able to catch many smaller fish away from shore. Here in the NE, once you get out past the shelf, if not in a GS eddy, there are no fish to speak of.


----------



## christian.hess

all our cheap every day ceviches are made from shark...I have no qualms eating shark...shark steaks are delicious to me

however catching one on a boat was too dangerous...just like barracuda...so we avoided it

by small species I think we are talking different things here...

mah mahi, wahoo and tuna come in all size ans shapes, from small 5-10lbers to whoppers

wahoo can be huge, as does mahi...the biggest one we caght was as least as long me! or close to it

like killarney says the atlantic has some dead spots...you are in a specific region

not all places are like that


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## Cope44

I got some questions about fishing from a sail boat.
What do you do once you have a hook up? Do you heave to, or just drag that sucker in on heavy gear?
What sail handling techniques are you folks using to help land your ketch?
Any worries about fouling the prop or rudder with a large fish on heavy line darting about under the boat?


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## christian.hess

cool questions

when in the trades we just kept going

you need a hook on a spear like on the end of a mooring hook

we never used nets...too much stuff going on and we usually dint use rods

we most commonly used spools...a bungee a little bell

the bungee acts like a rod...the spool is in a pocket...you tie the bungee into a loop in the line...the bell is attached to the bungee...

it will ring when the buge stretches a lot

sometimes with all the stuff going on wed forget we hooked anything and find a half eaten fish on the end of the line so we had hourly checks every watch and tied the bell onto it

the spear hook is essential for the bigger fish...I like hooks cause they make it easier to hook and raise in one movement


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## killarney_sailor

We only use a handline with a round, plastic 'reel' to hold the line and give you something soft, and rounded to hold onto. We started with a fishing rod, but had major problems with corrosion (it was a cheap rod and reel) and gave up on that and went with the handling.

We just keep sailing since it is reasonably stable and means we get on to landing the fish sooner rather than later. We bought a large landing net which is fine for smaller fish, but not much good for bigger ones. It seems that the fish you get in the open ocean are very long so a net is not much good. We caught a big barracuda (~50 inches) in the Gulf of Carpenteria and got him in the net, or at least the aft 40% and ended up just pulling him onboard with the line. We have not any fish swim forward of the transom at any time. I think being dragged at 6 knots is just too tiring for them. 

This is not sports-fishing for us, rather it is food gathering.

Edit - I saw Christian's post so will add a couple of ideas. We should have a gaff I guess, but have not lost a fish man-handling one onboard. We have a small gaff in the ditch bag for liferaft use. 

We don't have a bell setup, but we use a piece of speargun rubber sling and a clothes pin. We tie the rubber into a bight of the fishing line, then pull the fishing line up to the lower stern pulpit rail and hook the clothes pin to it with the rubber astern of this hookup. The idea is that when a fish hits the lure the line pulls out of the clothes pin (you can see that the line is no longer attached to the clothes pin so you go back and check it out - you can get false positives). The rubber absorbs most of the random movements of the boat and waves and also absorbs the shock of the fish hitting the lure. It seems to work pretty well for us.


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## christian.hess

pretty much the same, those reels you say we called them spools, usually flourescent green or pink or whatever

we usually towed around 30-50 feet behind, depending on speed of boat...sometimes we would do it by wave length, so the lure would skim the wave face 2 waves back...something like that

usually we used 50lb line but anything works really...

regarding bungee or rubber..if you have a bad spear gun use that rubber instead of bungee..a bungee works but they are really short lived in marine environments...they get all rusty at the ends and fray quickly

the bell was an add on but not needed for sure if you are very watchful...we would read a lot on deck and sometimes(like when reading the 7 pillars of wisdom while entering the red sea, jajaja you would get distracted) and lose a bite

and in the red sea it was sharks all around....eating our catch...

the spear fishing was great too in some areas

there were different species than we were used to though...jaja


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## newhaul

Kostis said:


> Killing out of necessity and killing for fun is different. Also consuming meat when it is not survival is blaspheme


If humans were not supposed to eat meat why do we have canine teeth and incisors I don't begrudge you your choice but I really love a good steak.


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## travlin-easy

All of you guys need to take a crash course on saltwater fishing.  Yes, there are such courses available, I should know - I used to teach one at the local community colleges. While you really don't need a fishing rod to catch fish, it just makes life a lot easier and increases the odds of actually landing the fish.

The best offshore lure is an ordinary cedar plug, which is one of the oldest, and most successful tun lures. It's a red and white wooden dowel, pointed at both ends, measures about 6 inches long, has a 4/0 forged, stainless hook at one and and a heavy swivel at the front end. Everything in the ocean will hit it, tuna, wahoo, dolphin (mahi), blue marlin, white marlin, king mackerel, spanish mackerel, cero mackerel, all the pelagics including sharks.

A 50/80-pound rated stand-up outfit is the best fishing rod you can carry with you - it will handle anything in the ocean. However, I also recommend taking a good bottom fishing outfit along as well. A medium weight spinning outfit with 15-pound test line, plus an assortment of hooks and sinkers will work great for catching inshore species such as small grouper, grunt, striped bass, bluefish, cod, mackerel, sea bass, tautog and redfish. 

Most of the groundfish, inshore species, can be merely lifted over the rail and into a waiting cooler chest - no problem there. 

The larger fish, however, should be gaffed, either using a heavy duty hand gaff, or a flying gaff, which is rather expensive. And, when you do this, be prepared for lots of blood flying around in the cockpit. These fish are big, bleed a lot, and you'll need a way of washing out the cockpit and it's contents when they come aboard. 

You'll also need a razor sharp fillet knife, and I personally recommend an electric fillet knife. Though I've never seen a 12-volt model, I have run mine on the inverter with no problems. Also, I vacuum seal my fillets using a small vacuum sealer I purchased at BJ's Wholesale Club for about $130 - it does a great job. The fillets are then placed in my boat's freezer and will keep for quite a while with any loss of quality. This, unfortunately, does not include tuna - they are too oily to freeze and will not last long when not frozen. You cannot freeze oil very effectively in a conventional freezer. The same holds true for mahi, bluefish, and mackerel.

This summer, I hope to try using my kettle grill as a smoker for bluefish and mackerel. It's my first experiment with this and hopefully it will work. I'll keep you posted on my success, or lack of.

Good Luck,

Gary


----------



## mrhoneydew

I think it isn't so much the consumption of meat as the industrialized production of it. I agree... human beans have evolved to be omnivores. I tried going vegetarian and then vegan for a time and simply couldn't get enough protein in my diet. I tried everything. That said, we (at least in the US) tend to eat FAR too much meat. As a frugal cruising thread, Kostis has a point. Both purchasing and storing meat versus other things adds to costs more so than veggies, fruits, and grains. If you can hunt/fish this isn't the case. But certainly reducing meats will reduce costs in the long term.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## christian.hess

travlineasy said:


> All of you guys need to take a crash course on saltwater fishing.  Yes, there are such courses available, I should know - I used to teach one at the local community colleges. While you really don't need a fishing rod to catch fish, it just makes life a lot easier and increases the odds of actually landing the fish.
> 
> *The best offshore lure is an ordinary cedar plug, which is one of the oldest, and most successful tun lures. It's a red and white wooden dowel, pointed at both ends, measures about 6 inches long, has a 4/0 forged, stainless hook at one and and a heavy swivel at the front end. *Everything in the ocean will hit it, tuna, wahoo, dolphin (mahi), blue marlin, white marlin, king mackerel, spanish mackerel, cero mackerel, all the pelagics including sharks.
> 
> A 50/80-pound rated stand-up outfit is the best fishing rod you can carry with you - it will handle anything in the ocean. However, I also recommend taking a good bottom fishing outfit along as well. A medium weight spinning outfit with 15-pound test line, plus an assortment of hooks and sinkers will work great for catching inshore species such as small grouper, grunt, striped bass, bluefish, cod, mackerel, sea bass, tautog and redfish.
> 
> Most of the groundfish, inshore species, can be merely lifted over the rail and into a waiting cooler chest - no problem there.
> 
> The larger fish, however, should be gaffed, either using a heavy duty hand gaff, or a flying gaff, which is rather expensive. And, when you do this, be prepared for lots of blood flying around in the cockpit. These fish are big, bleed a lot, and you'll need a way of washing out the cockpit and it's contents when they come aboard.
> 
> You'll also need a razor sharp fillet knife, and I personally recommend an electric fillet knife. Though I've never seen a 12-volt model, I have run mine on the inverter with no problems. Also, I vacuum seal my fillets using a small vacuum sealer I purchased at BJ's Wholesale Club for about $130 - it does a great job. The fillets are then placed in my boat's freezer and will keep for quite a while with any loss of quality. This, unfortunately, does not include tuna - they are too oily to freeze and will not last long when not frozen. You cannot freeze oil very effectively in a conventional freezer. The same holds true for mahi, bluefish, and mackerel.
> 
> This summer, I hope to try using my kettle grill as a smoker for bluefish and mackerel. It's my first experiment with this and hopefully it will work. I'll keep you posted on my success, or lack of.
> 
> Good Luck,
> 
> Gary


exactly what we used...we had a small one and a big one

there you go guys! simple


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## christian.hess

mahi and tuna can absolutely be frozen efficeintly btw...


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## christian.hess

mrhoneydew said:


> I think it isn't so much the consumption of meat as the industrialized production of it. I agree... human beans have evolved to be omnivores. I tried going vegetarian and then vegan for a time and simply couldn't get enough protein in my diet. I tried everything. That said, we (at least in the US) tend to eat FAR too much meat. As a frugal cruising thread, Kostis has a point. Both purchasing and storing meat versus other things adds to costs more so than veggies, fruits, and grains. If you can hunt/fish this isn't the case. But certainly reducing meats will reduce costs in the long term.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


human *BEANS*???????????????

JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAAJAJAJA

sorry just had a laugh there...jajaja where are those found?


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## mrhoneydew

christian.hess said:


> human *BEANS*???????????????
> 
> JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAAJAJAJA
> 
> sorry just had a laugh there...jajaja where are those found?


 I like the term. And hey, many of the world's problems would be solved... there would be less of us to consume/destroy the habitable world and we (assuming I am in the non-food category) would have plenty to eat all the time!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## christian.hess

mrhoneydew said:


> I like the term. And hey, many of the world's problems would be solved... there would be less of us to consume/destroy the habitable world and we (assuming I am in the non-food category) would have plenty to eat all the time!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I just thought the term beans was funny

being a ****** myself

please lets not get all offended with that now! jajajaa

ps regarding meat...ours was simple...we didnt eat red meat or any meat like poultry or veal or whatever red meat until we got to shore...in some places it wasnt available anyways so our impact or costs regarding meats was very low

we ate lamb and chicken in the middle east and red sea...everywhere else we at fish...when we ate out yeah a good steak here and there but that maybe happened once every couple of months

we learned to not need it...

on the boat like mentioned before we had canned beef for hashes and the like, deviled ham, chorizo and spanish cured meats, and I personally love spam or similar but thats an aquired taste...basically we had a very good diet with sporadic splurges of meats


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## Kostis

murder is murder


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## christian.hess

what does that have to do with this thread man?

thats like saying the us is evil or russia is the devil or the sky is only blue, or all religions but budhism suck or that being black is wrong, etc...

I understand your point but have no idea what it adds to the conversation...I too thought that way and later learned to appreciate what was infront of me and be thankfull

they called it a sacrifice or offering for something in old(and current) religous ceremonies I think its a balance, life is a balance....animals kill and hunt other animals right

I guess they are murderers too

this thread will get way out of hand if all of a sudden it becomes a gun or no gun thread, or imperialism vs. socialism thread or vegan versus meat eater thread or a political thread or religous thread

no point I think


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## Kostis

i dont know how we got into this conversation. Something about meat been more expensive


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## mrhoneydew

I have tried to bring this back to the topic in saying that reducing (purchased) meat will reduce long-term costs. But all of the 'murder is murder' stuff and imploring everybody to go vegetarian politics is what takes it off topic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kostis

truth it is off topic. I dont really have an excuse except that i believe in animal rights and i am trying to do whatever i can to save as many as i can. I dont want to upset anyone but morally i have no choice.


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## MikeOReilly

Please lets stay out of the gutter. If you want to have a discussion about who's morals are superior, then there's the Noah thread. Hours of fun there. 

Meat does tend to be more expensive, unless you catch it yourself. It's also more volatile, and tends to need refrigeration, which opens up a whole range of additional costs. It's why three weeks out we're pretty much eating a vegetarian diet.


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## Don L

Repeat after me ............................... STEAK!


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## JonEisberg

christian.hess said:


> mahi and tuna can absolutely be frozen efficeintly btw...


However, I'm guessing not many members of the $500/Month Club are likely to have freezers aboard


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## christian.hess

jon I was talking about the oil issue stated by travlin....tuna almost worldwide is sold frozen, even sushi grade

I often freeze mahi at the restauarnt when I want to use it for a fish stew later on or for croquteas or fried fish balls if you will, they keep just fine

makerel however I do agree...not good except fresh


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## chrissailorman

MikeOReilly said:


> Please lets stay out of the gutter. If you want to have a discussion about who's morals are superior, then there's the Noah thread. Hours of fun there.


Hey watch it Buster....


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## christian.hess

whats the noah thread and why is there always a gutter thread on all forums? jajaja


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## chrissailorman

13 pages of passionate discourse, but I think there was another flood and it washed us all away... Reminds me of an old Tenessee Ernie Ford song called Noah Found Grace in the Eyes of The Lord... The last word God spoke to Noah was "don't be more trouble than you're worth"...


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## travlin-easy

christian.hess said:


> mahi and tuna can absolutely be frozen efficeintly btw...


Not really, that's why tuna is canned and there's a world of difference between fresh mahi and frozen. Oil, in any form, does not freeze in a conventional freezer, one that rarely gets to zero degrees f. Consequently, the enzymes continue to be active, despite the fact the meat is hard as a brick. Most upscale restaurants have their own buyers who go to the wholesale fish markets daily and purchase the seafood they will use for that day. I performed music in many of the places and got to know the chefs quite well.

Frozen tuna takes like dog doo and I'm being kind. Same goes for mahi, but not quite as bad as tuna. The Japanese buyers that purchase bluefin tuna to be shipped to Japan's top restaurants will not consider any fish that has been frozen - period! Christian, I have first hand knowledge of this - I've caught bluefin tuna, which is the preferred species for sushi, and when I returned to the dock the buyers were there waiting. They check the core temperature with a long digital thermometer, then cut a chunk of meat from the tail and sample it, then remove a core of meat from the loin area to check the fat content. If it is below a certain temperature they will NOT buy it. It it does not contain a certain amount of fat, they will NOT buy it. if they do purchase the fish, it is air freighted to Japan in a large, ice-filled bag - not frozen. I've never sold one of the bluefins I've caught, but there are some licensed captains that do in my area. Prices range from $25 to $50 a pound at the dock if the fish meets the buyers standards. Bluefin tuna, in Japan, can bring up to $150 an ounce in the restaurants.

Mahi is nearly as oily as bluefin tuna, but not quite. It probably has more oil than mackerel or bluefish, and possibly more than salmon, which is quite oily. Mahi, cooked fresh on the grill, is fantastic, but after it has been frozen for a month, I consider it inedible. Smoked mahi is out of this world, probably the best smoked fish I've ever tasted, with the possible exception of smoked white marlin. The reason smoked mahi tastes so good is the meat is quite oily, which is a prerequisite for ALL smoked fish. If it's not an oily species, it does NOT lend itself well to smoking. That's why smoked salmon, smoked bluefish and smoked mackerel are so popular - the oil makes a difference.

Now, if you have an onboard freezer that goes down to -50 f or lower, then you might get away with freezing mahi for more than a couple weeks and not loose the taste quality. I, personally, have never seen a freezer that gets that low on any boat I've been on, including the USS Newport News CA-148.

Gary


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## mitiempo

Kostis said:


> truth it is off topic. I dont really have an excuse except that i believe in animal rights and i am trying to do whatever i can to save as many as i can. I dont want to upset anyone but morally i have no choice.


What about vegetable rights. They are alive too you know.


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## christian.hess

travlineasy said:


> Not really, that's why tuna is canned and there's a world of difference between fresh mahi and frozen. Oil, in any form, does not freeze in a conventional freezer, one that rarely gets to zero degrees f. Consequently, the enzymes continue to be active, despite the fact the meat is hard as a brick. Most upscale restaurants have their own buyers who go to the wholesale fish markets daily and purchase the seafood they will use for that day. I performed music in many of the places and got to know the chefs quite well.
> 
> Frozen tuna takes like dog doo and I'm being kind. Same goes for mahi, but not quite as bad as tuna. The Japanese buyers that purchase bluefin tuna to be shipped to Japan's top restaurants will not consider any fish that has been frozen - period! Christian, I have first hand knowledge of this - I've caught bluefin tuna, which is the preferred species for sushi, and when I returned to the dock the buyers were there waiting. They check the core temperature with a long digital thermometer, then cut a chunk of meat from the tail and sample it, then remove a core of meat from the loin area to check the fat content. If it is below a certain temperature they will NOT buy it. It it does not contain a certain amount of fat, they will NOT buy it. if they do purchase the fish, it is air freighted to Japan in a large, ice-filled bag - not frozen. I've never sold one of the bluefins I've caught, but there are some licensed captains that do in my area. Prices range from $25 to $50 a pound at the dock if the fish meets the buyers standards. Bluefin tuna, in Japan, can bring up to $150 an ounce in the restaurants.
> 
> Mahi is nearly as oily as bluefin tuna, but not quite. It probably has more oil than mackerel or bluefish, and possibly more than salmon, which is quite oily. Mahi, cooked fresh on the grill, is fantastic, but after it has been frozen for a month, I consider it inedible. Smoked mahi is out of this world, probably the best smoked fish I've ever tasted, with the possible exception of smoked white marlin. The reason smoked mahi tastes so good is the meat is quite oily, which is a prerequisite for ALL smoked fish. If it's not an oily species, it does NOT lend itself well to smoking. That's why smoked salmon, smoked bluefish and smoked mackerel are so popular - the oil makes a difference.
> 
> Now, if you have an onboard freezer that goes down to -50 f or lower, then you might get away with freezing mahi for more than a couple weeks and not loose the taste quality. I, personally, have never seen a freezer that gets that low on any boat I've been on, including the USS Newport News CA-148.
> 
> Gary


ok bud cool you win

to everyone else yes it can be frozen, most anything and any fish can

ps. dont know why Im arguing but hey, I think its funny...im a chef too, and worked at top restaurants in san francisco and staged in spain...and have my own place down here where I specialize in pacific coast seafood like jumbo jumbo shrimp, lobster, mahi(called dorado down here) ,grouper, robalo, snapper,and all sorts of great seafood that is cents versus stuff up states and fresher

also my dad back in the 90s used to have a seafood export company from down here up to florida of all places cause the quality was better and the prices were cheaper for top notch restaurants up in the states...we used to pack the fish in durapax boxes and they would fly overnight and be at the restaurant the next morning...(exactly what you are talking about east coast tuna fisherman sending the stuff to japan...we did this in the 90s from el salvador to miami, overnight)

I too go straight to the market and prepare it direct, but also use frozen fish when the preparation doesnt call for it

thats my cents

take care

pps what you are talking about is stuff for upscale japanese restaurants that specialize in SPECIFIC sorts of tuna...I dont know what that has to do with anything im talking about for the cruiser on his boat

we can talk all day about quality seafood and how to prepare it but you are talking me out of context...


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## tdw

Kostis said:


> truth it is off topic. I dont really have an excuse except that i believe in animal rights and i am trying to do whatever i can to save as many as i can. I dont want to upset anyone but morally i have no choice.


A discussion on animal rights is not fit for an On Topic forum. Desist or take it to Off Topic.


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## Kostis

Anyway, what about traveling in the country expenses. For example if you sail to England won't one want to visit cities and landmarks in the interior of the country? Those are the big expenses -apart from the boat expenses of course-. Am i wrong?


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## christian.hess

nope quite right unless you are like motissier and say damn Im bored going around the world once so Ill go halfwat around non stop just to keep my voyaging hormones at bay


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## tdw

Have to agree with Kostis that the desire for inland travel would make $500pm very hard to achieve. I seriously doubt that the $500pm cruiser will have that option other than short backpacking trips and even then not too many of them.


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## newhaul

JonEisberg said:


> However, I'm guessing not many members of the $500/Month Club are likely to have freezers aboard


That's true however on the meat line do a forum search for canning I did several informative posts a couple years ago on the subject.


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## mitiempo

Here is an interesting video of the commercial fish market in Tokyo. Notice them cutting the FROZEN tuna with a bandsaw. They are flash frozen on the ships right after they are caught.


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## smurphny

If fish are frozen very fast and to very cold temperatures, it minimizes the cellular damage but frozen is *never* as good as fresh. On a sailboat, the freezing process will be neither fast nor very cold. Many of the tuna and swordfish caught on smaller boats spend hours on ice before being frozen. The big longliners and harpoon boats have flash freezing but not the smaller boats. Better to catch just enough to refrigerate a quantity that can be consumed in a couple of days. Fishing while on the hook can be a good way to catch pan fish such as flounders, porgy, etc. Small fish are really some of the best eating and it's a fun thing to do.


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## MikeOReilly

tdw said:


> Have to agree with Kostis that the desire for inland travel would make $500pm very hard to achieve. I seriously doubt that the $500pm cruiser will have that option other than short backpacking trips and even then not too many of them.


Yes, it's likely one of the many choices one would have to make. That said, going ashore and seeing things doesn't necessarily mean spending big bucks. It depends on what you want to do, and how you want to do it.

If you want/need to take expensive docking, rent a car, stay in fancy hotels, eat at expensive restaurants, and go to costly tourist spots, then yes, it will be expensive. If you moor nearby, find a safe place to leave your dingy, walk, bike (if you have a bike) or hitchhike, take your own food, and avoid expensive sites, then it can be fairly cheap. It all depends on your choices.

One thing I've learned is that there is wonder and beauty nearly everywhere one goes. I can't think of anyplace that I _need_ to see. There are lots of places I'd like to visit, but if the cost is too high, then no problem. There's no end of things to see or visit.


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## christian.hess

mitiempo said:


> Here is an interesting video of the commercial fish market in Tokyo. Notice them cutting the FROZEN tuna with a bandsaw. They are flash frozen on the ships right after they are caught.


yup again depends on the tuna...or other fish types etc...

sushi grade for top notch restaurants is something completely different

kind of like talking about picnic virginia ham in a black hoofes serrano ham thread from spain

youd be surprised how much stuff you eat normally are flash frozen and then thawed for consumption in the markets...

most all meats in most countries are this way too...
just sayin

didnt want this thread to get derailled but basically if you have a freezer on your boat(500 a month budget or not)

freezing fish and meats is common

I knew a boat an american tri don here who had a big freezer on board and they lived somewhere in the states where they could hunt deer a lot...so they practically stuffed the freezer with dear and elk or whatnot and it lasted them years!

jajaja

peace


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## MikeOReilly

Kostis said:


> Anyway, what about traveling in the country expenses. For example if you sail to England won't one want to visit cities and landmarks in the interior of the country? Those are the big expenses -apart from the boat expenses of course-. Am i wrong?


I would say you simply can't do this sort of thing on a very modest budget. It's just one of many things you can't do.

I haven't looked at England specifically, but I suspect it may be a no-go place in general. As a rule, I think most so-called "first world" countries would be off limits to a truly frugal cruiser. Things just cost too much.

BTW, while frugal cruising removes some choices regarding where and how you can cruise, but I think it also opens up other options not available to those with plenty of money.


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## Kostis

Like what?


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## joethecobbler

yea,like what?
I'm curious also, what things are available only to me because of my poverty and or frugality that those with means are excluded?


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## killarney_sailor

Mike, I would not consider myself to be rich, but did manage to afford first world places like Brisbane. At the same time we did like to go to places a little bit off the beaten track where you could not spend much even if you wanted to. I think it is all about attitude. 

Also i don't think it is an all or nothing kind of thing. When we were in the Galapagos we took a four day tour with a company that focusses on the backpacker/sailor market (two notoriously impecunious and/or frugal groups. The cost was less than half of that of the 'budge' level cruise ships there and about 1/6th the cost of the top end ones. In some countries we travelled on local buses in others we rented a vehicle, just did what made sense - a car rental in NZ was cheaper than the buses, but normally a lot more expensive. In South Africa we rented because of flexibility, the ability to get to places a lot faster, and for security.


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## christian.hess

joethecobbler said:


> yea,like what?
> I'm curious also, what things are available only to me because of my poverty and or frugality that those with means are excluded?


the simple things in life bud....

people get caught up in having material wealth when the best times I have EVER had when going around and cruising have actually been with people in different countries from different places or with animals

1. touching wild seals in galapagos in complete peace, they felt no fear of humas nor did I of them

2. spending a whole week with a sri lankan guide on a very personal tour of sri lanka...learned how he got married, and how....what traditions they abide by etc...

just these 2 examples show you how MONEY has NOTHING to do with experiences and or the pleasures in life

ps. I see killarney did some of the same things...when possible we completely avoided guided tours, we called them MOO MOO gudies where basically you are herded like cattle from place to places

in galapagos we actually toured 3 of the other islands not commonly available to foreigners...

on isabella I beleive the big island my friend knew the HAM radio controller up high at the top of the mountain and we had lunch and slept when of the most glorious siestas I have ever had...the guy did the spanish cruiser nets for weather from up there and we used him all the way to the south pacific

stuff like that out if the way stuff you only get by personal experiences and befriending people along the way...

having $$$ would add no personal experiences at all to said trips...above


----------



## joethecobbler

christian.hess said:


> the simple things in life bud....
> 
> people get caught up in having material wealth when the best times I have EVER had when going around and cruising have actually been with people in different countries from different places or with animals
> 
> 1. touching wild seals in galapagos in complete peace, they felt no fear of humas nor did I of them
> 
> 2. spending a whole week with a sri lankan guide on a very personal tour of sri lanka...learned how he got married, and how....what traditions they abide by etc...
> 
> just these 2 examples show you how MONEY has NOTHING to do with experiences and or the pleasures in life


we're in total agreement "bud"
but the question was/is.
How does having a pile of cash keep ya from any of that?


----------



## MikeOReilly

Kostis said:


> Like what?


Is this what you're asking about Kostis?



> BTW, while frugal cruising removes some choices regarding where and how you can cruise, but I think it also opens up other options not available to those with plenty of money.


Well, off the top of my head, I can say frugal cruising might make you freer as to where and when you go. Insurance requirements, for one thing, can place significant restrictions on when and where you travel (hurricane season), how you travel (the requirement for more that two people for crossings), and even what boat you can use (I've heard it's hard to insure older boats).


Someone with less to lose doesn't have to be as worried about being robbed. This may open up cruising areas that wealthy cruisers might avoid.

Avoiding the expensive touristy sights means you will be further off the beaten path, allowing for greater freedom away from the crowds.

Not having lots of expensive equipment means maintenance is cheaper (although not necessarily easier).

Being poor, I don't have to worry about my pensions or my stocks (I have neither).
I'm not trying to romanticize poverty. And as KS and Christian says, it's not an all-or-nothing option. Frugality means being wise with the resources you have. Frugal living means you can have anything you want (within reason), you just can't have everything.

What I'm saying is that life is full of choices. I am not as rich as Bill Gates, but I have far more resources than the beggar on the street. We all have limitations (unless we're Bill Gates ). It's what you do with them that makes you free, or chains you down.


----------



## christian.hess

*


joethecobbler said:



we're in total agreement "bud"
but the question was/is.
How does having a pile of cash keep ya from any of that?

Click to expand...

*

EASILY you go to a tour guide...get shanked and you get in the moo moo crowd...or are you saying that guys in cruise ships in a set combo package deal gets to mingle with the real locals and experiences?

a real simple way to see this is a cruise ship versus sailing cruisers....do you see the same spots and do you experience the same things?

having money in excess(in this context) exludes you from the very intimate human relationships you only get by really getting to know someone...

if you rent a car and do it yourself all the time you might not get to know the old lady in the chicken bus that has this lovely spot on the edge of the beach where she serves the best fried fish right?

instead because you decide to throw money at everytying you rent a car(Im not saying all the time just as en example of how you *can* lose out on the experiences) and decide to go eat at the "best" place that some guy making money off tourits tells you is the best only because that guy(guide) gets a cut of the share for "recomending" that place to you...

thats how I lose out on money for example down here with my restauarnt...I refuse to be the guy paying a guide to recomend my place...

serving crap food, at the cheapest price, with barging, beckoning people wanting macdonalds crap and fast! since they are on a schedule to "see" the so called best places...

its dirty business to me, I prefer word of mouth and yeah if I sometimes lose out on $$$ I dont lose out in my soul...I prefer it that way...

while others might see this as downright dumb...I have my reasons...

stuff like this would be a common theme for discussions with cruisers we met...some guys didnt want to backpac or hike

some wanted the whole cruise ship do nothing experience...some didnt want buses others wanted private tours etc...

many options

whats clear to me is that when cruising its easy to get shielded from the real experiences if all you do os throw money at the HAVE TO DO experiences...


----------



## UnionPacific

MikeOReilly said:


> I would say you simply can't do this sort of thing on a very modest budget. It's just one of many things you can't do.
> 
> I haven't looked at England specifically, but I suspect it may be a no-go place in general. As a rule, I think most so-called "first world" countries would be off limits to a truly frugal cruiser. Things just cost too much.
> 
> BTW, while frugal cruising removes some choices regarding where and how you can cruise, but I think it also opens up other options not available to those with plenty of money.


Riding a bike around London is free In fact it may be the only good way to see it, so I hear. You can hike many places, take photos, look at architecture, for free. Some things are bound to cost money, but being frugal is not living without spending. You just have to pick and choose what you spend it on.


----------



## joethecobbler

christian.hess said:


> *
> *
> 
> EASILY you go to a tour guide...get shanked and you get in the moo moo crowd...or are you saying that guys in cruise ships in a set combo package deal gets to mingle with the real locals and experiences?
> 
> a real simple way to see this is a cruise ship versus sailing cruisers....do you see the same spots and do you experience the same things?
> 
> having money in excess(in this context) exludes you from the very intimate human relationships you only get by really getting to know someone...
> 
> if you rent a car and do it yourself all the time you might not get to know the old lady in the chicken bus that has this lovely spot on the edge of the beach where she serves the best fried fish right?
> 
> instead because you decide to throw money at everytying you rent a car(Im not saying all the time just as en example of how you *can* lose out on the experiences) and decide to go eat at the "best" place that some guy making money off tourits tells you is the best only because that guy(guide) gets a cut of the share for "recomending" that place to you...
> 
> thats how I lose out on money for example down here with my restauarnt...I refuse to be the guy paying a guide to recomend my place...
> 
> serving crap food, at the cheapest price, with barging, beckoning people wanting macdonalds crap and fast! since they are on a schedule to "see" the so called best places...
> 
> its dirty business to me, I prefer word of mouth and yeah if I sometimes lose out on $$$ I dont lose out in my soul...I prefer it that way...
> 
> while others might see this as downright dumb...I have my reasons...
> 
> stuff like this would be a common theme for discussions with cruisers we met...some guys didnt want to backpac or hike
> 
> some wanted the whole cruise ship do nothing experience...some didnt want buses others wanted private tours etc...
> 
> many options
> 
> whats clear to me is that when cruising its easy to get shielded from the real experiences if all you do os throw money at the HAVE TO DO experiences...


Gotta agree with you on most if not all of this post.
but it ain't the cash it's the mindset.
besides, you just enunciated almost exactly how I view life and cruising, with the exception of the fact that I am dirt poor! so it's easy to cruise on nuthin' for me cuz I got nothing's to looze.
However, I think this kind of existence seems to anger some folks and bring out alot of undo animosity.
I'm some of the animosity is my perception and some is actual. probably brought on by fear or misinformation.

Makes me think of when my family and I passed through Annapolis after hurricane Sandy (right after) and folks were approaching us asking if we were in need of assistance thinking we were homeless! 
I found that humerus, the wife not so much.


----------



## killarney_sailor

MikeOReilly said:


> Is this what you're asking about Kostis?
> 
> Well, off the top of my head, I can say frugal cruising might make you freer as to where and when you go. Insurance requirements, for one thing, can place significant restrictions on when and where you travel (hurricane season), how you travel (the requirement for more that two people for crossings), and even what boat you can use (I've heard it's hard to insure older boats).


I don't things are so extreme. The insurance regs about hurricanes pretty much make sense - you don't want to be in those places at those times in my mind. We have insurance (Jackline policy) and there is no retraction requiring three crew for passages. They seem quite happy to take my money to insure a boat that is 30+ years.

You are as free as your mind allows you to be. Most people would not consider buggering off to go cruising, it is just not 'sensible'. Of the small minority who consider it, a very large number are so worried about how to do it (boat selection, anchor selection, guns) that they will never actually do it. Now we are down to quite a small number and people in this group approach it on an individual basis. Would I like to do it in a new Oyster 56 as friends did it (Canadians even) - would be nice to try. Would I like to do it in a Bristol 27 without an engine (the used Monitor and solar panel the guy bought cost more than the rest of the boat) - probably not. We are somewhere in between, but we all have enjoyed the cruising experience.

Some people choose a very frugal approach because they have no choice. Others choose it out of conviction.


----------



## christian.hess

Im glad my rants work out...I tend to rant but the essence if the argument is what I try to make count

its the mindset not so much like you say how much you have, when down to it most people tend to focus on the material

its sad when you forget a lot of the experiences you have had before...some so powerful you still tear up those for me are much better and more important than trying to see all the great things the world has to offer

a lot of people focus on the bucket list when, its the trip to that BUCKET that really counts for me
JAJAJA

PEACE DUDES


----------



## christian.hess

killarney_sailor said:


> Some people choose a very frugal approach because they have no choice. Others choose it out of *conviction*.


BINGO

Ive lost a lot of it...but will get it back...need to get the family set...some cruising kitty...have the kid grow a bit but I have to do it...

I HAVE TO SHOW my kid whats out there...hopefully on a boat with the wife


----------



## MikeOReilly

killarney_sailor said:


> I don't things are so extreme. The insurance regs about hurricanes pretty much make sense - you don't want to be in those places at those times in my mind. We have insurance (Jackline policy) and there is no retraction requiring three crew for passages. They seem quite happy to take my money to insure a boat that is 30+ years.


That's good to know KS. I'm not there yet, but I've often seen too many people complaining about insurance restrictions of one form or another. I'll take a look at Jackline when we get there.



killarney_sailor said:


> You are as free as your mind allows you to be. Most people would not consider buggering off to go cruising, it is just not 'sensible'. Of the small minority who consider it, a very large number are so worried about how to do it (boat selection, anchor selection, guns) that they will never actually do it. Now we are down to quite a small number and people in this group approach it on an individual basis.


I fully agree. It is the mindset. Based on my albeit biased and limited observations, that the richer you are, the harder it is to be free of your stuff. How's that old adage go: "There's no one more free than the Man that has nothing to lose..." something like that.



killarney_sailor said:


> Some people choose a very frugal approach because they have no choice. Others choose it out of conviction.


Well said! Some, like me, are somewhere in between. I choose frugality, partly out of necessity, but also because it allows me to achieve the things I value more: freedom, adventure, learning, and a smaller eco-footprint.


----------



## joethecobbler

I just wanna be left alone. I cause no harm.expect nothing from anyone. and offer assistence to others when in need based on their request.
there are still a few pockets of places in the USSA where this is found. and that's where I'm a heading.


----------



## UnionPacific

where might these freedom zones be found?


----------



## christian.hess

freedom zones?

man this thread is getting pretty out there!

jejejeje


----------



## Dirtyfloats

Freedom zones?

Go where there arent other people, and little chance of development for resource extraction. Voila. Aint nobody gonna tell you nothing about nothing. My favorite places to be are places where money means very little. I.E. Places where it is of more value to have a sack of potatoes, or a pound of coffee, that it is to have 3000, per month for whatever...


----------



## joethecobbler

UnionPacific said:


> where might these freedom zones be found?


I used to tell everyone where I thought the greatest place I found was.then I started to realize that wasn't the smartest thing to do.
It seems everyone has a little different idea of what paradise should look like. I also remind myself that not everyone has good intentions.
So,as a matter of self preservation ,I quit giving specifics.
I've been cruising since 2007 and in the process visited alot of interesting out of the way places.
I returned to a few we really liked year after year. some held our interest, some changed or maybe we did through our experiences and growth.
We finally came to realize life is too short to be in or around people or places that are not to our liking.
We have spent the last couple years divesting ourselves of the things we now know we don't want /need and will soon "fall off the map" 
I figure I got maybe 20-25 years left before they shovel dirt in my face, and I'm not gonna' waste them working a job I dislike in an area I've come to dislike around people whose politics, religion, and morality I dislike.
I think that that place will be different for each one of us.
Hope you find your "Paradise "
I think /hope I found mine,if we share the same definition of it,maybe I'll see you there.
I we don't, I hope we don't,as I can't risk it.
Good luck in your travels, hope you find your paradise.


----------



## smurphny

Just need to find places where people still have to W-O-R-K to earn a living. Cities and havens of the "unearned income" sectors of society are places to avoid. They are just too detached from reality and full of people who would not know how to tie a square knot or change a spark plug if their life depended on it


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## Bob142

One of the better threads...keep the info coming...don't let it de-rail now...


----------



## Group9

christian.hess said:


> *
> *
> 
> EASILY you go to a tour guide...get shanked and you get in the moo moo crowd...or are you saying that guys in cruise ships in a set combo package deal gets to mingle with the real locals and experiences?
> 
> a real simple way to see this is a cruise ship versus sailing cruisers....do you see the same spots and do you experience the same things?
> 
> having money in excess(in this context) exludes you from the very intimate human relationships you only get by really getting to know someone...
> 
> if you rent a car and do it yourself all the time you might not get to know the old lady in the chicken bus that has this lovely spot on the edge of the beach where she serves the best fried fish right?
> 
> instead because you decide to throw money at everytying you rent a car(Im not saying all the time just as en example of how you *can* lose out on the experiences) and decide to go eat at the "best" place that some guy making money off tourits tells you is the best only because that guy(guide) gets a cut of the share for "recomending" that place to you...
> 
> thats how I lose out on money for example down here with my restauarnt...I refuse to be the guy paying a guide to recomend my place...
> 
> serving crap food, at the cheapest price, with barging, beckoning people wanting macdonalds crap and fast! since they are on a schedule to "see" the so called best places...
> 
> its dirty business to me, I prefer word of mouth and yeah if I sometimes lose out on $$$ I dont lose out in my soul...I prefer it that way...
> 
> while others might see this as downright dumb...I have my reasons...
> 
> stuff like this would be a common theme for discussions with cruisers we met...some guys didnt want to backpac or hike
> 
> some wanted the whole cruise ship do nothing experience...some didnt want buses others wanted private tours etc...
> 
> many options
> 
> whats clear to me is that when cruising its easy to get shielded from the real experiences if all you do os throw money at the HAVE TO DO experiences...


I know people who have gone to Atlantis in Nassau, never left the resort, and never the less, really believed they had been to the Bahamas.


----------



## Kostis

I am a man of very little means. But it doesn't change the fact that I think that people with a lot of means, can be more comfortable. ITs not just the cruise it's self. It's also what you back to. If I would leave now what would I come back to? That's my fear. Other than that. I can live with very little food for example and use all my money, for been a tourist.


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## christian.hess

that can apply to any country or any place in the world....unfortunately

for example I saw the pyramids in egypt by myself...the cab ride to them was much more of a highlight to me than being surrounded by a gaziliion tourists all moo mooing in and around and getting the camel ride pic...etc...same for the museum...I felt a lot was lost with all the "attractions" 

instead the cab driver talking to me while the sun came up amidst the foggy and hazy cairo with the pyramids that magically appeared in the horizon later on...

THAT was an experience right there!

anywhoo

thats why I like cruising you really get to know people if you go off the beaten path or take the non touristy version of the sites or coutries or places...

peace

now off to the boat to do some much neeeded and delayed work!


----------



## christian.hess

Kostis said:


> I am a man of very little means. But it doesn't change the fact that I think that people with a lot of means, can be more comfortable. ITs not just the cruise it's self. It's also what you back to. If I would leave now what would I come back to? That's my fear. Other than that. I can live with very little food for example and use all my money, for been a tourist.


thats one of the biggest fears most people have in daily life! for cruisers thats the second biggest question after when to leave

my friends who are sitting in greece while there(after circumnavigating) asked themselves the same question?

now what?

its been 6 years since they asked themselves that question...

apparently you dont need to know what happens next in order to live life

you just cant plan everything...cause you will always fail all your scheduled programming


----------



## smurphny

To get back to cruising on $500...I'm sure it has probably been covered higher up in this LONG thread, but has anyone tried making their own "jerky" or dehydrated meat to keep aboard? It's something I have always wanted to try for boat stores. I've made some dehydrated apples in the microwave but have not tried meat like turkey or beef or fish.


----------



## Dirtyfloats

Yep, 
Jerky of any kind is a fantastic food to have aboard, and is easy to make.
Meat can easily be smoked or dried on the beach just about anywhere, and will keep for a very long time. Just use whatever meats you prefer. some are better than others, but thats different for everyone.

Two other thoughts:

I'm in the process of designing add ons to my stainless steel woodstove, One is a water jacket that u bolts onto the stove pipe allowing for a supply of hot water for tea.

The other is a smoker box that slides over the stove pipe outside the boat, and can be packed full of fish/meat whatever and smoked as I go. Since while under way the stove ends up just smoldering anyway, it would be simple to pack it full of tasty wood and let it cure some salmon!

Yet another thing that I have done and always enjoyed, is drying meat out all the way, and grinding it in my hand crank grain mill into powder. Lasts real long, and having stock for soups is wonderful. I will even drink beef stock tea when its esspecially cold out and you want the extra energy in a warm drink! just add water!


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## Kostis

Christian, I am asking this question at age 38. I had however cancer previously so it is in the back of my mind, fears about the future. Having said that, Greece is not a bad country to just wander. It is a country that allows you to philosophize life. It still is today. And you are right. you live life and not try to guess it. 

As to when to leave the best answer is NOW. The sooner the better because you are closer to the reality as you know it. In 10 years we dont know how the future will be with jobs and money and stuff. 5 years from now will be easier to guess. Now we know. 

My fear is because, i dont have a work career. then again it can be liberating. It is just the fact that i never got the chance to do it. Of course as of now, I cant afford a boat so a circumnavigation is out of the question. But if I would get a boat i would leave for the winter. Even if i only have 2-3 thousand dollars. Before all that I need to learn how to sail. The basics. The rest i would learn it on the way.


----------



## MikeOReilly

smurphny said:


> To get back to cruising on $500...I'm sure it has probably been covered higher up in this LONG thread, but has anyone tried making their own "jerky" or dehydrated meat to keep aboard? It's something I have always wanted to try for boat stores. I've made some dehydrated apples in the microwave but have not tried meat like turkey or beef or fish.


Yes. I dehydrate all sorts of foods, including meat. I used to make a lot of jerky, but for cooking I prefer ground meats of various sorts. I'd dried beef, chicken, turkey and canned meats like tuna and salmon. Have not dried fresh fish yet, but I'm sure that would be easy. The key is to remove as much fat and oil as possible. It is the fat that goes rancid first with meats.

I have a home-built dryer that I use, and am building a solar dehydrator for the boat. I'm still considering purchasing a model from Excalibur Food Dehydrator | Buy Factory Direct & Save. They look pretty good.


----------



## Kostis

You dont need to "dehydrate" the fish. By coarse natural salt and put it on the fish and dry it in thin layers in the sun. But the question is this. Are you guys doing 3 month passages? y do u need so much food?


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## Donna_F

Kostis,

There are quite a few forum members who are, indeed, permanently cruising. Probably half as many making preparations to cruise. That's one of the fun benefits of the forum: a little bit of everything.


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## Kostis

Permanently????


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## Donna_F

Kostis said:


> Permanently????


Well, eventually making port. Somewhere. But in between the passages can be long.


----------



## smurphny

MikeOReilly said:


> Yes. I dehydrate all sorts of foods, including meat. I used to make a lot of jerky, but for cooking I prefer ground meats of various sorts. I'd dried beef, chicken, turkey and canned meats like tuna and salmon. Have not dried fresh fish yet, but I'm sure that would be easy. The key is to remove as much fat and oil as possible. It is the fat that goes rancid first with meats.
> 
> I have a home-built dryer that I use, and am building a solar dehydrator for the boat. I'm still considering purchasing a model from Excalibur Food Dehydrator | Buy Factory Direct & Save. They look pretty good.


I like the idea of solar drying but keeping the bugs out has got to be a problem with letting anything sit long enough for the sun to dry it. Isn't it done with salted Cod? Am also thinking about building a smoker and wonder about how smoking compares to dehydrating as far as preservation. A friend of mine smokes just about any kind of fish he catches: Stripers, even bluefish, and they are absolutely delicious. Trout season is just getting going here so I'll soon have some fish to experiment with.


----------



## MikeOReilly

smurphny said:


> I like the idea of solar drying but keeping the bugs out has got to be a problem with letting anything sit long enough for the sun to dry it. Isn't it done with salted Cod? Am also thinking about building a smoker and wonder about how smoking compares to dehydrating as far as preservation. A friend of mine smokes just about any kind of fish he catches: Stripers, even bluefish, and they are absolutely delicious. Trout season is just getting going here so I'll soon have some fish to experiment with.


The solar dryer is basically a black sunbrella envelope around a set of wire frames. All vents are covered in mesh screen to keep the bugs out, so hopefully it will work. I've yet to actually try it.

I've never smoked anything, but I'd like to try. Can you do it in a small place, like on a boat? Any recommendations on a set up? I think Gary and Christian might know something about this as well ... guys?


----------



## travlin-easy

The secret to fantastic tasting smoked fish is the brine, a process when done properly can take up to a week. And, there are several ingredients to a great brine solution - not just salt. Over the years I've smoked thousands of pounds of various species of fish and game. The fish, however, should be an oily species - bluefish, mackerel, mahi, salmon, etc. Most pelagics tend to smoke quite well, including billfish, which are very oily. Striped bass, cod, flounder, halibut and other non-oily species are best when either grilled or battered and pan fried.

Here's the recipe I use for most smoked fish:

SMOKED SALMON

There are lots of good recipes for smoked salmon. Unfortunately, there are not many great recipes for smoked fish, but this particular one seems to be the best of all. After more than five years of experimentation, using every species of fish available in the mid-Atlantic region, the recipe has been modified until it has finally reached the pinnacle of perfection. If you enjoy the flavor of smoked fish, especially oily species such as salmon, bluefish, Atlantic mackerel, king mackerel and cobia, you'll love this.

BRINE SOLUTION
2 qts. Water
1 cup dark brown sugar
4 tblsp. Old Bay Seafood Seasoning
4 tblsp. chopped, fresh Vidalia onions
½ cup kosher salt
1 tsp. garlic powder
1 tblsp. Montreal steak seasoning
6 drops Worcestershire sauce
1 tblsp. lemon juice

DIRECTIONS:
Thoroughly mix all ingredients of brine solution in a plastic container until salt and sugar are completely dissolved. Using a flat, Tupperware container pour in a small amount of bring solution (about one-inch deep). Cut fish fillets into inch-thick, four-inch squares and place them in the container in layers. After the first layer is in place, pour in enough brine solution to cover them, then add the second layer and continue until all the fillets are covered with brine. Cover the container using a sealable lid or Saran Wrap and refrigerate for five days. Be sure to agitate the container at least once daily to prevent the brine ingredients from settling–this is important. If there are several layers of fillets, it's also a good idea to occasionally separate them at least once daily to ensure all surfaces are exposed to the brine.

At the end of the brining period, remove the fillets and pat dry with paper towels. Place them on a broiler pan sprayed with Pam non-stick vegetable oil and bake in a 350-degree, preheated oven for 25 minutes, then place the fillets in the smoker. Using an electric smoker, smoke for approximately two hours using hickory chips. When the fillets are golden brown in color, remove them from the smoker, allow a few minutes for them to cool, then place them in Zip-Loc bags and refrigerate overnight before serving. While they taste good fresh from the smoker, the hickory flavor penetrates the meat completely when refrigerated in air-tight bags. The smoked fillets will last up to six weeks in the refrigerator and may be frozen for up to three months. Smoked fillets can be shredded and used with your favorite dip, or you can make a fantastic smoked salmon salad to be used as a substitute for tuna-salad. Enjoy!

Gary


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## smurphny

That's great Gary! Will try it. Have to see if I can find some non-farmed Salmon in the supermarket to try it on. Living up in the mountains these days I don't have the freezer full of "real" fish I used to have when close to the ocean. Have to put up with the little trout and lake fish here. One of the best tasting fish I know of around here out of the lakes is the lowly Bullhead, a catfish. I wonder how they would smoke? A great tasting but uglier'n hell fish I used to get out of lobster pots is the Tautog (blackfish)(shoefish). It seems the uglier the better tasting


----------



## travlin-easy

Tautog, also known as poor man's lobster, is probably one of the best tasting fish in the Atlantic. The range from northern NC to New England, reaching weights of up to 25 pounds, and primarily reside in the bowels of inshore wrecks. You'll also find them lurking among jetty boulders and bridge pilings near ocean inlets and the lower reaches of Chesapeake and Delaware bays. Their favorite food is a blue mussel but this is closely followed by chunks of fresh crab. 

Unfortunately, it's not a good species to smoke, but they are the best fish I've placed on a grill - EVER! I skin the fillet the tautog, then place the fillets on a grill, baste with real mayonnaise and sprinkle on some Old Bay Seafood Seasoning - Damned that tastes good.

I've also dipped them in beer batter and pan fried them - OH YEAH!

Gary


----------



## Lou452

Hey all  I have not abandoned everyone but the weather is getting nice so I will be out more and hear on sailnet a little less 
I got to take a 2 days off work and spend a night on the boat. It was nice cost some $ $ 30 for the ramp pass good for a year. $ 20 for the night at the dock. and I am not sure what the races cost me. I will know later. $15-20 dollars this is the cost of learning to sail. I will pay my dues but it is money I enjoy spending. 
Wish you all the best got to go. Regards, Lou


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## christian.hess

travlins recipe is pretty cool! kudos

we used to pan smoke...on skillets at the restaurant...my favourite is always trout...dont know what it is but it drives me nuts

smoked trout over cucumber slices and a dill aioli is the bees knees in my book!

anywhoo

you need a skillet, a base like a bamboo steamer to sit ontop of cedar chips, you can soak them in sherry or just water, but the sheery does add flavor...

then you lay them down and pan smoke them covered with foil

we did a quick smoke followed by a quick pan sear...so this isnt a traditional smoked fish in the sense that its not brined but you get a lot of flavor and richness!

cheers


----------



## Group9

Lou452 said:


> Hey all  I have not abandoned everyone but the weather is getting nice so I will be out more and hear on sailnet a little less
> I got to take a 2 days off work and spend a night on the boat. It was nice cost some $ $ 30 for the ramp pass good for a year. $ 20 for the night at the dock. and I am not sure what the races cost me. I will know later. $15-20 dollars this is the cost of learning to sail. I will pay my dues but it is money I enjoy spending.
> Wish you all the best got to go. Regards, Lou


I know what you mean. I have been on my boat more in the last two weeks, (almost every day), than I had been in the two months before. I love summer.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Lou452 said:


> Hey all  I have not abandoned everyone but the weather is getting nice so I will be out more and hear on sailnet a little less
> I got to take a 2 days off work and spend a night on the boat.





Group9 said:


> I know what you mean. I have been on my boat more in the last two weeks, (almost every day), than I had been in the two months before. I love summer.


You guys make me sick ... with envy. We just got another 20 cm of snow last night. I can't even get to my boat because of all the snow banks. Heck, I don't even think I can get out of my house right now


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## Bene505

MikeOReilly said:


> You guys make me sick ... with envy. We just got another 20 cm of snow last night. I can't even get to my boat because of all the snow banks. Heck, I don't even think I can get out of my house right now


You mean it's still winter up there? Yikes! 

Regards,
Brad


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## christian.hess

"winter"

rainy season is just starting down here BUMMER


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## smurphny

19 F here this morning! I wish you guys would keep that Canadian air up where it belongs


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## MikeOReilly

My forecast from Environment Canada:

Warnings

8:15 AM EDT Friday 25 April 2014
Snowfall warning in effect for:

City of Thunder Bay
Snowfall - morning to late afternoon.

A late season snowfall continues this morning for areas near Lake Superior. Snow at times heavy will continue this morning, but should begin to taper off this afternoon. 15 to 18 cm of snow has been measured in the Thunder Bay area as of 8 am. A total snowfall accumulation of 20 to 25 centimetres appears likely in the warned regions.


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## christian.hess

yikes! its almost may!


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## smurphny

We're supposed to get snow here in the next couple of days as well. It's really not that atypical. The warm springs we've had in recent years were out of the ordinary. Anyway, the canals are opening. Just got an email from the Canal Authority:

Notice to Mariners
2014 Navigation Season

April 22, 2014

Mariners are advised that, conditions permitting, all portions of the New York State Canal System are scheduled to open Saturday, May 3, 2014, at 7:00 a.m. for the 2014 navigation season.

The hours of operation for the 2014 season are as follows:

May 3 to May 21: 7:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. 
May 22 to September 10: 8:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. 
September 11 to November 19: 7:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. 
In addition to the schedule listed above, the following locks and lift bridges will operate on demand from 7:00 am to 10:00 pm from May 22 to September 10:

Lock C-1, Halfmoon 
Lock E-7, Niskayuna 
Lock E-23, Brewerton 
Lock O-1, Phoenix 
Lock E-24, Baldwinsville 
Main Street Lift Bridge, Fairport 
Lock E-32, Pittsford 
Lock E-33, Henrietta 
Spencerport Lift Bridge 
Adams Basin Lift Bridge 
Park Avenue Lift Bridge, Brockport 
Main Street Lift Bridge, Brockport 
Exchange Street Lift Bridge, Lockport 
Lock E-34/35, Lockport 
Lock CS-1, Cayuga 
Lock CS-2/3, Seneca Falls 
Lock CS-4, Waterloo 
In addition to the structures listed above, the following lift bridges will operate on demand from 7:00 am to 6:00 pm and on a scheduled basis from 6:00 pm to 10:00 pm from May 22 to September 10:

Medina Lift Bridge 
Middleport Lift Bridge 
Gasport Lift Bridge 
The schedule for openings at these bridges will be posted in a subsequent Notice to Mariners.

Vessels will be admitted through structures if arriving prior to scheduled closing. Vessels arriving at Lock CS-2/3 in Seneca Falls or Lock E-34/35 in Lockport from either direction prior to scheduled closing will be admitted through both chambers. Vessels arriving westbound at Lock E-21 in New London or arriving eastbound at Lock E-22 in Verona prior to scheduled closing will be admitted through both locks. Vessels arriving at the Waterford Flight from either direction prior to scheduled closing will be admitted through the entire Flight.

24-hour service is available to commercial vessels such as tour boats, tugboats, charter boats, cruise ships, and hire-boats operating on the Canal System. Registered commercial operators should call (518) 471-5014 during regular business hours and (518) 461-0942 after hours to make arrangements for lock and lift bridge service outside of the Canal's regular operating schedule.

For updates and information, please call 1-800-4CANAL4 or visit New York State Canals.


----------



## MikeOReilly

smurphny said:


> We're supposed to get snow here in the next couple of days as well. It's really not that atypical. The warm springs we've had in recent years were out of the ordinary.


You're right about the Springs, but our winter up here has definitely been atypical. We've broken all sorts of all-time records (including snow fall for today!). This is the coldest winter on record for us, we hit some absolute temperature low records (-44 Celsius/-47F some days, and that's not wind chill!). Lake Superior has never been as icey for so long (compared to records going back a century or so), shipping season has never been delayed for this long. There's probably a few more.

We certainly didn't break any total snow fall records. It's the cold that has been atypical. And I'm glad we shared it with you folks down south . I wish you'd send a bit more of your hot air up here (and I'm not talking about your politicians :laugher)


----------



## Kostis

Thats y u need heating. It is so warm down in the south....


----------



## smurphny

MikeOReilly said:


> You're right about the Springs, but our winter up here has definitely been atypical. We've broken all sorts of all-time records (including snow fall for today!). This is the coldest winter on record for us, we hit some absolute temperature low records (-44 Celsius/-47F some days, and that's not wind chill!). Lake Superior has never been as icey for so long (compared to records going back a century or so), shipping season has never been delayed for this long. There's probably a few more.
> 
> We certainly didn't break any total snow fall records. It's the cold that has been atypical. And I'm glad we shared it with you folks down south . I wish you'd send a bit more of your hot air up here (and I'm not talking about your politicians :laugher)


I meant the snowfall is not unusual this time of the year. We have an annual whitewater derby here on the Hudson on the first full weekend of May. Have been going to it for 40 years and it often spits snow. The weather swings this time of the year are wild. One day it's summer, the next day winter again. This winter certainly was much below normal on the entire East Coast. That's from official data. The coldest I can ever remember it being in these parts was 42 below (F) back in the 70s.


----------



## Omatako

MikeOReilly said:


> I haven't looked at England specifically, but I suspect it may be a no-go place in general. As a rule, I think most so-called "first world" countries would be off limits to a truly frugal cruiser. Things just cost too much.


As a sight-seeing cruiser to England, one would probably want to concentrate on London because that is the centre of the history and most of the things worth seeing are located in one small area. But . . . .

There is nowhere close to London that one could anchor. Just getting up the Thames is a mission in it's own right because at full ebb, the tide runs at sometimes 5 knots and it is a long way up to London (38nm from the river entrance to St Catherine's Dock, the only marina in the Thames IIRC). So your timing has to be right because the ebb lasts for nearly twice as long as the flood.

And then I don't believe you would be allowed to anchor in the river (may be wrong) but if you did your holding would have to be excellent and you would have to plan for around 7 metres of tidal range. And then you'd need to find somewhere to store your dingy while you're ashore.

If you're planning on berthing at St Catherine's Dock, the rates are surprisingly low but there is no living aboard permitted so one would have to find accommodation in London. Also I suspect one would have to reserve a berth a long time ahead.

So you would have to be somewhere else to anchor and travel into London and on $500 a month, expect to go hungry for a while.


----------



## killarney_sailor

There are a couple of other marinas on the Thames, one more on the north side and one on the south. They are not ridiculously expensive for big city marinas, but they are a lot more than $500 a month. I seem to remember when I checked it out for our 35' about 8 years ago it was around $1600 a month including power. Once you are there it is a very expensive city, even to get around. Last time when we were there the prices for most things were almost the same as in Toronto (not a cheap city), except the prices were in pounds when the pound was basically twice the value of the Loonie (Canadian dollar).


----------



## killarney_sailor

MikeOReilly said:


> My forecast from Environment Canada:
> 
> Warnings
> 
> 8:15 AM EDT Friday 25 April 2014
> Snowfall warning in effect for:
> 
> City of Thunder Bay
> Snowfall - morning to late afternoon.
> 
> A late season snowfall continues this morning for areas near Lake Superior. Snow at times heavy will continue this morning, but should begin to taper off this afternoon. 15 to 18 cm of snow has been measured in the Thunder Bay area as of 8 am. A total snowfall accumulation of 20 to 25 centimetres appears likely in the warned regions.


Suck it up, Mike! People will think Canadians are babies and can't take a little winter as May approaches.


----------



## MikeOReilly

killarney_sailor said:


> Suck it up, Mike! People will think Canadians are babies and can't take a little winter as May approaches.


Arrrgh, right! No problem here. Bring on the snow and blizzards. _Ah Ha Ha Ha _(maniacal laugh). We'll be launching tomorrow! It's what Canadian's do .

Psssst ... did I go to far KS?


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeOReilly said:


> My forecast from Environment Canada:
> 
> Warnings
> 
> 8:15 AM EDT Friday 25 April 2014
> Snowfall warning in effect for:
> 
> City of Thunder Bay
> Snowfall - morning to late afternoon.
> 
> A late season snowfall continues this morning for areas near Lake Superior. Snow at times heavy will continue this morning, but should begin to taper off this afternoon. 15 to 18 cm of snow has been measured in the Thunder Bay area as of 8 am. A total snowfall accumulation of 20 to 25 centimetres appears likely in the warned regions.


Sun is beating down here on the west coast. Forecast plus 20 and sunny next week.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Brent Swain said:


> Sun is beating down here on the west coast. Forecast plus 20 and sunny next week.


Bastard


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeOReilly said:


> Bastard


We Canadians have the constitutional right to move freely and live anywhere we want in Canada.
Exercise your rights . I did ,when I left the cold parts at age 19.
No regrets .
Don't envy, emulate!
CU in BC.


----------



## travlin-easy

I didn't see any palm trees growing in BC when I visited there 40 years ago. 

Gary


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## Brent Swain

travlineasy said:


> I didn't see any palm trees growing in BC when I visited there 40 years ago.
> 
> Gary


There are now, royal palms.


----------



## smurphny

MikeOReilly said:


> Arrrgh, right! No problem here. Bring on the snow and blizzards. _Ah Ha Ha Ha _(maniacal laugh). We'll be launching tomorrow! It's what Canadian's do .
> 
> Psssst ... did I go to far KS?


Met quite a few nice folks flying the Maple Leaf down south this winter. Know where they are now? STILL THERE which proves beyond a doubt that Canadians are a lot freaking smarter than me! Arrrrgh indeed


----------



## Capt Len

Apparently it actually snowed a bit here on Vancouver Island last winter but I missed it as I take a shore leave in Thailand each winter. Sunny and warm in Naniamo now as everything is blossoms and the veggies are sprouting. Maybe I shouldn't be boasting as more of you may immigrate. Did I mention that the sailing is pretty good too?


----------



## MikeOReilly

Brent Swain said:


> We Canadians have the constitutional right to move freely and live anywhere we want in Canada.
> Exercise your rights . I did ,when I left the cold parts at age 19.
> No regrets .
> Don't envy, emulate!
> CU in BC.





Capt Len said:


> Apparently it actually snowed a bit here on Vancouver Island last winter but I missed it as I take a shore leave in Thailand each winter. Sunny and warm in Naniamo now as everything is blossoms and the veggies are sprouting. Maybe I shouldn't be boasting as more of you may immigrate. Did I mention that the sailing is pretty good too?


Actually, one of our possible long-term plans are to pass through the Panama Canal, and beat our way up to the BC coast via Hawaii. By then we'll probably be out of money, so being back on Canadian shores would make it easier to get a crappy job if need be.

Anyone need a decent scribe who can take mediocre pictures and does graphic design on the side? If you need a union organized or a rabble roused, I'm your man .


----------



## Capt Len

I'm afraid those coveted union and rabble jobs are already taken by the locals, most of whom haven't figured out that living on the hook, heating with wood and trading a surplus of fish ,fowl and venison to back to the farm types for veggies negates any need for a mundane job. If a infusion of cash is occasionally required there's no shortage of building and construction jobs. Industrial camps need winter maintenance/security. Of course these positions usually require a certain intelligence ,talent or skill.Many living this lifestyle up the coast get by with two out of three so there's hope for you. Come on up.


----------



## Kostis

About England. I respectfully disagree. The whole country is a landmark really. You don't want to see THE STONES? The little villages on the south west?? Nottingham? Oxford and Cambridge?? Aren't you going to visit SCOTLAND? Land of Son Connery, home of Transpoting, play ground of Bridget Jones?What about the Beatles and Billy Idol and Iggy?Are you going to disappoint them too? No Edinburg in your plans? 

What i would is to take it in the cheapest marina OR moor with the locals, and go out with public transportation and bicycles and explore.

And that makes it more costly . So there are ways to do it, cheaper but completely free i think, one would miss out a lot


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## MikeOReilly

Kostis said:


> About England. I respectfully disagree. The whole country is a landmark really. You don't want to see THE STONES? The little villages on the south west?? Nottingham? Oxford and Cambridge?? Aren't you going to visit SCOTLAND? Land of Son Connery, home of Transpoting, play ground of Bridget Jones?What about the Beatles and Billy Idol and Iggy?Are you going to disappoint them too? No Edinburg in your plans?


As has been said, a frugal budget doesn't mean you can't do these things. You may have to be creative, and more to the point, you may have to make choices. You can do _anything_, you just can't do _everything_.

But your description has me thinking about how I view our coming cruising life (b/c I am not yet full-time ... soon). I see full-time cruising as a lifestyle, not as a means to be a tourist. Yes, I will take in the local sites, but I'm not going out to check off a list of _must-sees_. There is beauty and wonder everywhere. I don't have to go anywhere in particular to be amazed.

So yes, I'd like to see the Stones, but I'm just as happy exploring the wonders of Lake Superior, or hanging out with good people in a local pub. I guess it all depends on what you're looking for.


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## Kostis

I got you Mike. the way I see it is, you sail somewhere park the darn thing and bike around and camp in the mainland, or if it is a smaller place sail around in different anchorage every now and then. For example Europe is really cheap if you know how to do it. But i think while in Italy you need to see some things. Otherwise one can cruise the world and see nothing


----------



## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> So yes, I'd like to see the Stones.


You would be disappointed, I sure was!


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## Dirtyfloats

Just the thought of england makes me cringe... dreary, treeless,... no thanks...

Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


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## MikeOReilly

Kostis said:


> I got you Mike. the way I see it is, you sail somewhere park the darn thing and bike around and camp in the mainland, or if it is a smaller place sail around in different anchorage every now and then. For example Europe is really cheap if you know how to do it. But i think while in Italy you need to see some things. Otherwise one can cruise the world and see nothing


I understand what you're saying Kostis. Of course there are things worth seeing. It's just that for me, the reason I'm moving into a floating home is for the lifestyle. It's a way to live small(er), it offers the possibility of existing more sustainably, simply, and cheaply (although the opposite of all these can easily be true as well). And yes, it's a nice way to see other parts of the world.

But there are things to see everywhere. Just living and being in a space means you are seeing things. It doesn't have to be the ruins of past civilizations, or the paintings of the masters. The world is full of wonder -- everywhere. I not saying I don't want to see the Duomo or walk through the Colosseum. If I was in Greece or Italy, and these were out of the budget, I wouldn't shed a tear, and I wouldn't feel like I'm not seeing anything.


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## christian.hess

Dirtyfloats said:


> Just the thought of england makes me cringe... dreary, treeless,... no thanks...
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


weird, if you like history, maritime history for that matter and beatiful scenery out in the country such a comment doesnt make sense...

one of my dreams is to sail great britian, including hoping to scotland, ireland and doing the whole misty bay, pub in the background trips...

like all things different strokes for digfferent folks


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## travlin-easy

Having visited more than 100 countries in my lifetime, I can assure you it's not the destination as much as it is the people you meet at those far off places. Many of the countries I visited consisted of a lot of rundown, neglected villages or towns, but the people I met at those places were always very interesting to say the least.

While cruising to the Florida Keys, I met some of the most wonderful individuals you can ever wish to encounter. They were from all walks of life, and I sincerely believe my life was enriched by just meeting them. 

Now, as for England and the UK, I have not been there in more than 50 years, and when I was there it was often cold, damp and dreary, similar to the weather in Maryland this past winter. I want palm trees, sugar white sand, turquoise colored water and gentle, warm breezes - OH YEAH! There's a sound reason that I saw so many Canadian boats in the mooring field in Marathon two years ago.

Gary


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## christian.hess

its the PEOPLE and the experiences...

people visiting the taj mahal often find it dissapointing as I did the pyramids, but the to and from and learning the languages, the people and the actual getting there(what cruising is all about) is what made up for it


----------



## fryewe

Dirtyfloats said:


> Just the thought of england makes me cringe... dreary, treeless...


I spent two years in a different England.

Wonderfully varied country as well as people. And the best beer in the world. Of course no place is dreary with the right pint...

Treeless. Really? There were an abundance of trees when I was there...not like the forests of BC...but many...

Dreary? The seashore in a storm is a lot of things to me...but not dreary.

What I find fascinating about the world and traveling it is the seemingly endless variety. From Switzerland to Denmark and Arizona to Vancouver...from Singapore to Ensenada and Tampa to Rome. I have found no place to be dreary and no culture to be lifeless.

And I've visited (and lived long term) in those places both broke and flush...and loved them in either case.

Voyaging is like anything else in life...you make it what it is...


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## christian.hess

bingo

I found the term trealess funny too

where did robin hood live then? jajajaja

peace


----------



## Kostis

ITs too the treeless comment. ITs used to be true for all Europe before the plague. The trees were cut to make ships and for agriculture purposes. When he says treeless he doesn't mean there no a single one tree in England. But let me ask you something. Why do you think the first Europeans came to America for? For something Europe didn't have any more. Gold of the time. Timber!!! Now maybe you don't think much of it now because we are a young country, but when east cost - with all the housing "development"- starts to resemble Arizona you will see...... 

Mike I understand what you say. By the way, in Greece and south Italy, you hardly need any money, if you are respectful and learn the art of foraging.


----------



## fryewe

Kostis said:


> Why do you think the first Europeans came to America for? For something Europe didn't have any more. Gold of the time. Timber!!!


Don't want to belabor this too much but I don't remember Coronado and DeSoto and Cortez and Pizarro running around trying to find trees in the desert Southwest nor the Andean highlands nor the Florida swamps. Nor too many carpenters and axemen on the Mayflower. Perhaps my schooling was deficient.

Seems to me the best things to bring with you when you go cruising are energy and some basic skills and tools. Where there are people there is a need to fix things. If you are energetic and handy you will have no trouble getting by...and build good will as well (unless you are breaking local laws by working or taking work from locals who need it)...

Perhaps this has already been discussed on this thread...I haven't read it all.


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## Kostis

No i am not saying this is what they were after. I am saying there was fortune to be made after their first expectations sunk.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Not to foster this thread drift, but Kostis is right about the stripping of the British Isles' forests, and then the denuding of Canada's eastern. I would assume the same happened to the 13 Colonies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Woodland_as_a_percentage_of_land_area_in_England.png

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/timber-trade-history/

Fryewe I would be interested in talking about earning income or necessary barter goods while cruising. We're going to have to generate some income as we move along. Gary's got a great traveling business. Unfortunate I don't have his talent. What do others do?

Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## fryewe

First example:

Eight inch black locust...one hour...hand tools...my first attempt...how much it is worth? I dunno...but it's not the cleat that's important...it's the notion.

The wood was scavenged from deadfall after a storm. Can you recognize black locust/white oak/ash/hickory/cedar/cypress? There's a lot of it available laying on the ground in most places.









Soaked in hot boiled linseed oil overnight...let dry for three days...seven coats of spar varnish.

Tools were handsaw/small vise/microshave plane/sandpaper/battery powered drill and 1/4" bit/pencil...I later countersunk the holes for fasteners to accept oval head screws.

I can provide more examples of small projects if desired. Marlinspike Seamanship by Hervey Garrett Smith is a treasure trove of ideas and things to do/make/practice to build skills that may come in handy. Brian Toss' book The Riggers Apprentice shows "how to" for rigging...lashings/splicing for example.

Do you understand electricity and wiring? Most people do not. Everyone who doesn't occasionally needs help with their electrical system.

Mike you seem to be a genial/affable/out going person by your posts so I can't imagine your not being able to make contacts/friends wherever you stop on your travels. You will find things to keep you busy...things to do to make a bit of money...help others to establish good will (invaluable when on a waterfront)...and develop a reputation for honesty and diligence.


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## christian.hess

fryewe said:


> Don't want to belabor this too much but I don't remember Coronado and DeSoto and Cortez and Pizarro running around trying to find trees in the desert Southwest nor the Andean highlands nor the Florida swamps. Nor too many carpenters and axemen on the Mayflower. Perhaps my schooling was deficient.
> 
> Seems to me the best things to bring with you when you go cruising are energy and some basic skills and tools. Where there are people there is a need to fix things. If you are energetic and handy you will have no trouble getting by...and build good will as well (unless you are breaking local laws by working or taking work from locals who need it)...
> 
> Perhaps this has already been discussed on this thread...I haven't read it all.


it has quite a bit, I remember contributing on some odd jobs and trades that can make your cruising kitty stay level or increase

the thing with this thread is that it FLIES! and most topics have been repeated on a circulatory program at least a couple of times

for example

sewing kit and good machine for canvas an sail work
a welder
power tools and rigging equipment
bottom scrubbing equipment

for the ladies
artwork, necklace making, carving, etc...jewelry made from the islands stuff you visit
trading

the stuff like teaching a language, or working to build stuff on remote places that need simple infrastructure etc...

all these can help you make a buck and also help those in need

regarding mike though he has it made!

you can make a buck with articles related to travel and cruising and although most dont pay that much, some do, and it might be mostly for fun but making a little here and there by writing GOOD and colorful articles for the cruising mags is a nice way to make the travelling fun


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## christian.hess

thought Id add on stuff that I wouldnt leave without if I start cruising again and what I have learned from the past, things that could of come in handy and were needed before.

Equipment:
*a portable generator* at least 1000watts...2kw would be ideal, the generator is a god send and can be taken to other boats to work on, light up a picnic at night on the beach or help someone in distress that need a quick battery charge, or some power tools to fix stuff, hard wire a bilge pump, etc...

*Riggiing parts* everything from wire, to tunrbuckles to tangs, extenders, to mechanical terminals, cones, etc..etc...when stuff breaks and someone needs something and your way out in la la land it can be life and death almost and helping out or even selling these parts just in the off chance someone needs it is a quick way to make a buck and have cash for the next port

*simple scuba setup* doesnt matter if your registered or not a simple scuba setup or even a hooka setup these days will allow you to dive a stuck anchor, or take your time investigating an issue on you bottom, or be able to lend out to someone or even use it to SCUBA in places that are fun to!

*Inverters, chargers, electrical gadgets...* even a crappy inverter for someone with no inverters for his laptop or whatever can come in handy in an emergency.

*canvass and sail material,* cloth, nylon, sumbrella, outdoor fabric to make new cushions etc..etc...etc...I would even take some plastic for dodger windows who knows it might come in handy

*outboard carb rebuild kits and gaskets, jets, orings etc* youd be surprised how important some little gaskets and orgings are especially for carbs...I know we had some issues a couple of times and when in town went to search for little orings and stuff...
always have cleaners, lubes and grease too

those are the things I had in mind when remembering what would of been cool to have in past trips

some of these are money makers on others boats and when hopping from port to port

for young folk and energetic types bottom scrubbing, scraping in exotic ports on other cruisers boats has always been a way to make a buck

that and climbing masts for some old folk who dont want to risk it anymore...changing stuff like bulbs, antennas or a wind indicator for a quick buck is cool in my book

anything is something is a saying down here!

peace


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## killarney_sailor

I have been scratching my head trying to think of any of the cruisers we have met who sell services and i am stumped, can't think of one. My experience is that if you are handy fixing fridges and someone has a problem you help them and the return might just be a beer after the job. Likely tomorrow they will need help with something and you or someone else will provide it. Also most cruisers are quite handy and able to fix most things. If there is a big issue, chances are that you need to find a real shop with the kind of equipment you can't carry or with a supply of spare parts that is more than what one has onboard.

We even met a dentist who said he could not all the routine things onboard. From the US to Indonesia he said he used it twice - once for a cruiser and once for a local in a remote island. He did not mention charging in either case, but probably got something in trade. 

As for bartering, you may be able to trade t-shirts, batteries, etc for fruit, fish, etc. But don't count on it. We found that we tended to just give stuff away - school supplies and the like to kids with no expectation of anything. Sometimes locals give you stuff just because they think you need it or would enjoy it. In Grenada we commented to the owner of a tiny restaurant that a vegetable was new to us and quite tasty. Next day he gave us enough for a couple of meals. Once you get away from North America the world is different.

The people who are successfully working while cruising tend to fall into two categories. One are those who return home periodically to work and save. If your job is there and can be done in chunks of several months this works fairly well since you will have time-outs for tropical storm seasons. The kind of work is doing some aspect of a previous job on the boat - writing and IT stuff come to mind, but not that many people have the skill-set and opportunities for this one.


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## christian.hess

it wasnt necessarily selling services but I got paid for bottom cleaning, going up masts and the like, even cleaning the odd bilge or whatever, varnish work...

its just something to help those in need...a beer is usually what you get back but it doesnt mean the possibilty of actually work for pay inst out there

we knew a french and german boat who made a living welding up other steel boats around the world

in panama at the extinct PMBC club there was a german guy that used to build steel boats...he made quite the buck and $$$$ welding up other steel boats...in fact he was so good he stayed there until the club sort of shutdown...

if you are skilled in something you can make a buck

Im not saying that you go around with sails saying you do work on boats and whatnot but there is always someone in need and being able to help $$ or not is a great way to stay out there

ps. it also goes to show how different peoples experiences are when cruising around the world

we were in spanish boats and mingled mostly with french, italian, and other latin tongued boats...including portuguese, braziliian etc...we found they had this mindset and so did we

I wonder if the american boats and english speaking boats dont experience this as we did

might be a cultural one off thing! jajaja


----------



## smurphny

christian.hess said:


> thought Id add on stuff that I wouldnt leave without if I start cruising again and what I have learned from the past, things that could of come in handy and were needed before.
> 
> Equipment:
> *a portable generator* at least 1000watts...2kw would be ideal, the generator is a god send and can be taken to other boats to work on, light up a picnic at night on the beach or help someone in distress that need a quick battery charge, or some power tools to fix stuff, hard wire a bilge pump, etc...
> 
> *Riggiing parts* everything from wire, to tunrbuckles to tangs, extenders, to mechanical terminals, cones, etc..etc...when stuff breaks and someone needs something and your way out in la la land it can be life and death almost and helping out or even selling these parts just in the off chance someone needs it is a quick way to make a buck and have cash for the next port
> 
> *simple scuba setup* doesnt matter if your registered or not a simple scuba setup or even a hooka setup these days will allow you to dive a stuck anchor, or take your time investigating an issue on you bottom, or be able to lend out to someone or even use it to SCUBA in places that are fun to!
> 
> *Inverters, chargers, electrical gadgets...* even a crappy inverter for someone with no inverters for his laptop or whatever can come in handy in an emergency.
> 
> *canvass and sail material,* cloth, nylon, sumbrella, outdoor fabric to make new cushions etc..etc...etc...I would even take some plastic for dodger windows who knows it might come in handy
> 
> *outboard carb rebuild kits and gaskets, jets, orings etc* youd be surprised how important some little gaskets and orgings are especially for carbs...I know we had some issues a couple of times and when in town went to search for little orings and stuff...
> always have cleaners, lubes and grease too
> 
> those are the things I had in mind when remembering what would of been cool to have in past trips
> 
> some of these are money makers on others boats and when hopping from port to port
> 
> for young folk and energetic types bottom scrubbing, scraping in exotic ports on other cruisers boats has always been a way to make a buck
> 
> that and climbing masts for some old folk who dont want to risk it anymore...changing stuff like bulbs, antennas or a wind indicator for a quick buck is cool in my book
> 
> anything is something is a saying down here!
> 
> peace


With a boat full of stuff for voyaging, it's difficult to find space for too many non-essential items. Some things would be nice to have but are not as important as, maybe, that spare starter. Engine components are high on the gotta-have list as are rigging replacements- things to make the boat proceed through the water. I keep all my old wire. It does not take up much room and with some simple copper crimps can be used in an emergency. You don't necessarily need lots of expensive swageless parts to make emergency repairs. A good quantity of Amsteel line is also useful for lots of things. It can be quickly spliced and has tremendous strength. Doing a priority list can avoid having stuff you don't really need and taking inventory of what's aboard can eliminate having stuff you forgot about. I just eliminated about 30% of clothes that were just taking up space. Need to hoe it all out once in awhile


----------



## christian.hess

these things dont add up much space...at least on my current boat and the list was intended as a "money" maker type list where you would take these things in the off chance it would become needed, for your boat or others...

a portable generator in a lazaratte, scuba tank on sternn pulpit, sewing machine in a locker

I think I could of had this stuff on my old wooden 28ft boat and not be crowded of course we were because we did the newb thing of loading the boat up with boxes of toilet paper and biscotti cookies and crap that we still had after 10k miles of cruising! jajaja

but thats what my crews wife was so adamant on sending us off with...so we had to accept it! jajaja

peace


----------



## christian.hess

smurphny said:


> With a boat full of stuff for voyaging, it's difficult to find space for too many non-essential items. Some things would be nice to have but are not as important as, maybe, that spare starter. Engine components are high on the gotta-have list as are rigging replacements- things to make the boat proceed through the water. I keep all my old wire. It does not take up much room and with some simple copper crimps can be used in an emergency. You don't necessarily need lots of expensive swageless parts to make emergency repairs. A good quantity of Amsteel line is also useful for lots of things. It can be quickly spliced and has tremendous strength. Doing a priority list can avoid having stuff you don't really need and taking inventory of what's aboard can eliminate having stuff you forgot about. I just eliminated about 30% of clothes that were just taking up space. Need to hoe it all out once in awhile


clothes of course! they take up a lot of space...our clothes list was pretty frugal but perfect for our type of cruising....took up very little space


----------



## travlin-easy

The only thing that took up a lot of room in my boat was my music gear - it filled the entire quarter berth. However, it also provided me with a pretty good income while cruising, so I really didn't care how much space it required.

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## Kostis

I think if you try to sell to the specific group you will sleep hungry most of the time. What i mean is if you are planning to make sails as u go, is a good skill to have, but how often will you have customers? You cant depend on it. But lets say if you can teach Tango, probably you will get more customers and travel more often. If you can play music, well most people like music so you can make a pretty dependable income. Not lots but more dependable. If you can grill for example since EVERYONE eats, you will always have an income. Maybe a tiny one but... always. Thats what i think.

But if you fix the rigging on a boat (IF they have the money to pay you in full, assuming they are not like you) you can charge a big amount. BUT HOW OFTEN??


----------



## Kostis

I think you should have those skills for your boat. Help people along that they might need your help, for good karma, and if they can spare something they can give you what they can afford. But If you want to travel, you need to sell what MOST people want. So for example in an remote area i would think if you carry junk food, like chips chocolates bla bla you can probably exchange it for nice food. Of course i never tried it. this is just an theoretical approach


----------



## christian.hess

yeah its not often thats why its a bonus to your cruising kitty 

solo sailors are famous for this...they often scrounge up enough money and when they feel they have enough cash in their pocket they take off for somewehere else...usually a place where they feel they might make a bit more money

ps I dont understand the part about the grill? what do you mean by that that you would charge for food for grilling?

Im afraid that wont make you much money out there, food, fishing and sharing the catch at sundown with friends is something where money shouldnt ever be involved

one of those bring what you have and enjoy life deals...


----------



## christian.hess

the braziliian fellow I made friends with ws friends with people that would cook, and or work on cruise ships as well as charter boats and private big boats...they would work for a season then hop on someone elses boat...

my spanish captain was extremely surpised this way when he was shouted at from across thestreet in egypt...only to find a crew friend he had been very fond of all the way back in the caribbean and panama...

in any case

ps those things you say like chips, candy, treats, all that is good tradig stuff, I mentioned this a loooong time ago back in this thread

nothing like an old t shirt for lobster or candy for fresh fruit and veggies, or little treats and jewelry and toys for ffresh bread or water taxi or whatever...

lots of stuff that make people happy in the islands

oh and dont forget the packs of cigarettes for those offshore fisherman and bubble gum

also little bottles of booze go a long way in making friends in remote places

even in muslim countries(shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh thats a secret, fishermen all over the world no matter what religion will accept booze when away from their families and land)

peace


----------



## Capt Len

Back in the day I had an arrangement with a popular Chinese restaurant. When I occasionally blew into town I could leave a gunny sack of rock cod on ice at the back door. Later my friends and I would meet at the front door for dinner and never a bill. As for the occasional burst of income I usually found something like herring season ($3000 for one set ,one year) or a delivery of a charter vessel to the Beaufort or the Exxon oil spill .Always something, Packing chimney bricks up the hill for a high end retreat to deck hand on a halibut boat. The rest of the leisure time was reserved for sailing and scrounging the scrap yards. Some guys just know how to have fun.


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## Kostis

I dont know if possible but i meant like having a food cart. Like those foods on stick that they grill and sell it. Like the hot dogs in NY.


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## mitiempo

Kostis said:


> I dont know if possible but i meant like having a food cart. Like those foods on stick that they grill and sell it. Like the hot dogs in NY.


I think the locals will own that market.


----------



## Brent Swain

MikeOReilly said:


> Actually, one of our possible long-term plans are to pass through the Panama Canal, and beat our way up to the BC coast via Hawaii. By then we'll probably be out of money, so being back on Canadian shores would make it easier to get a crappy job if need be.
> 
> Anyone need a decent scribe who can take mediocre pictures and does graphic design on the side? If you need a union organized or a rabble roused, I'm your man .


Dodrums are huge west of Panama. Going south til you hit the SE trades, then via Marquesas may be easier. Doldrums are much narrower north of the Marquesas.


----------



## Brent Swain

christian.hess said:


> clothes of course! they take up a lot of space...our clothes list was pretty frugal but perfect for our type of cruising....took up very little space


If you put your cold weather clothes in a plastic garbage bag when you hit the tropics, and throw some mothballs in ,they wont go moldy. An hour or two in the wind evaporates the mothball smell.


----------



## Capt Len

Swapping up is often better than spending money. I once found a lignum vitae plank, carved some cleats, traded for 600 lbs of lead, traded that for a Lunenburg anchor winch. Still on Thanes fore deck For other things , there's Mastercard.


----------



## Kostis

I like this thread. Anyone cruised Greece?


----------



## christian.hess

my friends are in turkey right now...they hop around between the isles and greece all the time...but basically hey have retired a second time there

they are in marmaris area

could get some detailed info if you need it


----------



## Kostis

No i was just wondering. I want to buy a boat and sail there. I have seen the mainland. I want to spend some more time on the islands now


----------



## Omatako

killarney_sailor said:


> There are a couple of other marinas on the Thames, one more on the north side and one on the south. They are not ridiculously expensive for big city marinas, but they are a lot more than $500 a month.


Sorry, that was a typo on my part - the cost is £500 a month (that's British pounds) and then I went back and checked and that is a cost PER METRE.

My apologies for misleading - I should learn to pay better attention.


----------



## Lou452

several post back. I was looking at the many ways of cooking and eating fish. I am just now learning about Ciguatera poisoning. Does not seem to be much of a problem. One just needs to know what type of fish you can eat. Fish on the no list are Red Snapper, Grouper. They make the A list in a lot of fine dinners. Grouper and Red Snapper numbers are also having a hard times so they are not recommended for those reasons also. Going back to subject of ciguatera many of the fish seem to be table fare for us 
If anyone wants to give some advice I am thankful. 
Kind regards, Lou


----------



## mitiempo

Ciguatera isn't all that cut and dried really. It varies from area to area. Best to check with the locals wherever you are. A fish species that is fine in one location may be dangerous to eat elsewhere.


----------



## christian.hess

yup!


----------



## MikeOReilly

I posted this elsewhere, but thought I should add it here: I am officially on the $500/month budget now .

To be less enigmatic, as of Apr. 30 I have walked away for all guaranteed income. I have resigned from my long-term contract job. I'm back to being a full-time freelance writer/photographer, and more importantly, a full-time boat owner and cruiser. 

I've got no wisdom to offer. Perhaps that will come later. For now, I'm both scared and excited. 

...It begins!


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## mrhoneydew

Mike, you are an inspiration! I wish you the best and I think after you get settled into it and have actually experienced life as you have been picturing it all this time you will develop a sort of "muscle memory." It will be a whole lot less scary.

Take Care,

Maxx


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## newhaul

Great news keep us up to date and check in from time to time fair winds


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## Kostis

Mike, good for you. Honestly if you have 500 dollars per month you will be fine.


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## christian.hess

CONGRATS MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!

so cool

you keep us posted....


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## Rhapsody-NS27

Sure sounds liberating.

I really hope it works out for you. Enjoy your travels and experience of life itself.

Every one of us on this planet will die, but not every one of us will have lived as full of a life as we might have been capable of living. Too many people in the later years of their life talk about all the things they wished they had done that are too late to do now. Given the opportunity to do things over again they would have taken more risks, been less afraid of failing, traveled more, lived more from a place of their own truth instead of someone else's, played harder, worked less.

You came into this world with nothing and you will leave this world with nothing. Make the time you have in between the two everything and leave with no regrets.


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## christian.hess

amen!

who knows where Ill be be the time you get down here and central america but again a big old cold one, maybe some fish on the hook and bbq if we do meet up on me!

safe sailing!


----------



## MikeOReilly

Thank you all for the many kind words. My partner and I have been working towards this for some time, and as is typical of us, we are moving into this new life slowly. All of this is to say I'm going no where fast. And I'll keep posting as things move along. Maybe I'll even start a bloggy thing. 

I've got a few more projects to get done on the boat (new stove, solar panels, windlass, cabinetry work), before we head off July 1. From there we plant to meander our way around the Great Lakes, and eventually hauling out in Lake Ontario. We'll spend another winter up here, then carry on down the St. Lawrence the following year. After that, who knows...

As you say Daniel, none of us are getting out of this alive. Might as well have some fun along the way. 

And Christian, I can hardly wait to taste some of your cooking. We'll get there ... eventually .


----------



## fryewe

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> Too many people in the later years of their life talk about all the things they wished they had done that are too late to do now.


I think most who do that are the kind that did a lot...and wanted to do more...but you can't do it all.

We are all bound by some limits whether we admit it or not. Thus...this thread.

Mike - may all the Irish proverbs grace your life...


----------



## Tallswede

Good for you Mike! I'm sure it is scarey liberating. Heck I'm almost ready to retire and it's kinda scarey just thinking about it. Every one I know who has done it says the same thing 'Best thing I ever did!' Good luck and let us know how it goes. Hope to be right behind you.

Kevin


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## Kostis

A job is not the same as work. Job is slavery that comes from a mind dependance. You can still work. Just do the things you want and enough to live. Everything more is not necessary


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## Capt Len

Good on'ya Mike. As one who retired in '72 (my mother disdainfully called it 'dropping out') there's little I'd do differently and not much I regret. I think that the chuck under the bowsprit should be changed regularly before it becomes comfortably familiar. Capeesh?


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## Bene505

Congratulations Mike! You are an inspiration.

When you get down to eastern Long Island, please look me up. We'll have a cold one waiting for you and yours.

(And personally, I think a hidden success factor is fridge/freezer/ice box insulation. That's inside the box, outside the box, or both.)

Regards,
Brad


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## ravinracin

Mike, Congrats! Your posts have been informative and fun to read. I retired 17 months ago and have be working on my boat every chance I get. I haven't splashed yet, but I am getting closer. Maybe I will see you out there some day.


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## DHusk

Congrats, Mike. I'm sure you've made all the necessary preparations and will be successful in your new life. Hope to join you in another 18-24 months. Won't have to be on 500/month, but not much above that.

Good luck!


----------



## newhaul

found this one today waiting on specs for marine use but at the price can afford to replace every couple years if it fails
Amazon.com: RENOGY 100 Watt 100w Monocrystalline Photovoltaic PV Solar Panel Module 12V Battery Charging: Patio, Lawn & [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@41aEWBb7xDL


----------



## mitiempo

I'm not sure what you mean by "marine specs" but the numbers are here: 
100W Monocrystalline Solar Panel | Renogy Store

At that price it looks like an inexpensive Chinese panel. Make sure you match it with a good controller like the Genusun MPPT - the best small panel controllers available.


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## newhaul

mitiempo said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "marine specs" but the numbers are here:
> 100W Monocrystalline Solar Panel | Renogy Store
> 
> At that price it looks like an inexpensive Chinese panel. Make sure you match it with a good controller like the Genusun MPPT - the best small panel controllers available.


brian thanks for the controler part it told me i posted the wrong link right panels just wrong site this one includes a 30 amp pwm controller for the same price 
100W Solar Panel 30A Charge Controller MC4 Solar Adaptor Cable - Vegascart LLC my bad. Is it really worth an aditional 75 bucks for an mppt controller?


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## mitiempo

It is a pretty cheap controller - quality doubtful. The marketing plan is a cheap solar panel with wattage the main point and the least expensive controller they can add to it. The panel by itself is 123.99 and the controller by itself is 27.99
30 Amp PWM | Renogy Store

I would buy the panel by itself and add a good controller - either a PWM by Morningstar or a Genasun MPPT for the best results. The extra dollars do not amount to much per year over even 4 or 5 years and you will get better results. Controllers make a large difference. Especially when a quality one is compared to one of the cheapest available.


----------



## UnionPacific

newhaul said:


> found this one today waiting on specs for marine use but at the price can afford to replace every couple years if it fails
> Amazon.com: RENOGY 100 Watt 100w Monocrystalline Photovoltaic PV Solar Panel Module 12V Battery Charging: Patio, Lawn & Garden


thats a bad price.
Solar Panel Price Survey | EcoBusinessLinks


----------



## mitiempo

UnionPacific said:


> thats a bad price.
> Solar Panel Price Survey | EcoBusinessLinks


Your link doesn't show any panels near the same size (100 watts) newhaul is looking for. Panels are less expensive per watt for large panels.


----------



## UnionPacific

158 is the smallest they have, but size wise they should work for most cruisers. 
best if your on the west coast. then shipping will not be a big bite.


----------



## mitiempo

Keep in mind that shopping by price alone has leaves out the better quality panels. I wouldn't buy a built to a price Chinese panel nor a controller from any except an established company like Genasun, Outback, Morningstar, or Blue Sky.
You do get what you pay for. I know people with good panels that are more than a decade ole from Kyocera, Siemens, Sharp and others that are still performing as designed. How many cheap panels will be doing that after 5 or 10 years.


----------



## UnionPacific

I can buy a lot of panels for the price of an expensive one. even if it only lasts 5 years, then I get the new better one in 5 years. In 5 years the price will be lower still.


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## christian.hess

there is something to be said about that, panels are getting pretty disposable and cheap these days

I would vouch for a good controller that will outlast 2 or 3 panel changes and be able to accpet adding panels too

panels keep going down on price so its not such a bad argument if you think about it

having said that kyocera and the panels mitiempo states are the same ones I was told where the ones to look for as the best overall...

cheers


----------



## UnionPacific

Your correct, I plan to spend the money on a good quality 80 amp MPPT myself, and run cheap panels into it.


----------



## mitiempo

UnionPacific said:


> Your correct, I plan to spend the money on a good quality 80 amp MPPT myself, and run cheap panels into it.


The flaws found in cheap panels can reduce output by a fair amount. If you are spending the money on a good controller like the Outback FlexMax 80 why not feed it well with good panels.


----------



## Don L

My controller cost me almost twice what the panel cost me. In fact I think my 290W panel was about the lowest priced part of the project.


----------



## newhaul

I only need a 45 watt array however that hundred watt kit Vegas had and free shipping was at about the same price as the cheap 45 watt unit from harbor freight and like stated in five years the prices will be much better as will the tech and renogy is out of chino California and they claim to manufacture their own panels and guarantee the output for 25 years. So I'm OK with that and mabey next year I will be able to afford that mppt controller


----------



## UnionPacific

mitiempo said:


> The flaws found in cheap panels can reduce output by a fair amount. If you are spending the money on a good controller like the Outback FlexMax 80 why not feed it well with good panels.


Because I am going for 1000 watts on my primary 24v house bank, and 400 on my 12V bank. IF I spent $4 a watt, then I might as well just spend that money on diesel for my generator. 1200 gallons of diesel will run my 3500 watt generator for 7000 hours, the same as the full array running 4 hours of daily max output for 7 years. The math does not work out on expensive panels.

I guess my big personal drawback is I want a big freezer. This is going to eat power, perhaps 80AH a day. I also plan to skip a windvane for a second auto pilot. so that will eat power too. If I was only doing a 100 watt panel, I would get a cheap controller, non-mppt, and a good panel with 18%+ effc. Even then Only for reliability, and that is not assured.


----------



## mitiempo

Where can you put 1400 watts of panels on a 48' ketch without serious shading?

They are best in parallel as series will kill output if a panel gets shaded.


----------



## UnionPacific

mitiempo said:


> Where can you put 1400 watts of panels on a 48' ketch without serious shading?
> 
> They are best in parallel as series will kill output if a panel gets shaded.


Its a schooner, 1000 on the boomkin, 360 watts on each side rail by cockpit


----------



## christian.hess

UnionPacific said:


> Because I am going for 1000 watts on my primary 24v house bank, and 400 on my 12V bank. IF I spent $4 a watt, then I might as well just spend that money on diesel for my generator. 1200 gallons of diesel will run my 3500 watt generator for 7000 hours, the same as the full array running 4 hours of daily max output for 7 years. The math does not work out on expensive panels.
> 
> I guess my big personal drawback is I want a big freezer. This is going to eat power, perhaps 80AH a day. I also plan to skip a windvane for a second auto pilot. so that will eat power too. If I was only doing a 100 watt panel, I would get a cheap controller, non-mppt, and a good panel with 18%+ effc. Even then Only for reliability, and that is not assured.


youre a 48 footer right?

still 1400watts is massive....and will eat space

I will be in the windvane as primary and autopilot as backup and protected water camp crowd

and especially since you are dealing with so many electrical loads...windvanes are your friends


----------



## smurphny

newhaul said:


> found this one today waiting on specs for marine use but at the price can afford to replace every couple years if it fails
> Amazon.com: RENOGY 100 Watt 100w Monocrystalline Photovoltaic PV Solar Panel Module 12V Battery Charging: Patio, Lawn & Garden


That looks like the one I added last year to the two 60w units I had already. They all work just fine, no problems. All w/ plain cheap regulators that came with them. There's always someone to sell you something more expensive with the term "marine" on it or some other such nonsense. All I can say is that mine have been working for 4-5 years now and easily keep up the batteries which support lighting, SSB, VHF, refrig, computers, and things that need to be charged.


----------



## christian.hess

hey since this is my favourite thread look at this little exceprpt on this months letters from latitude38

I could post this on other threads like the sailing with kids threads, the rebel heart thread and the circumnavigation threads but man...just feels like a kick in the nads to all the naysayers out there

*PREPARING OUR CHILDREN TO BE ADAPTERS

Latitude asked readers for opinions on whether parents, such as Eric and Charlotte Kaufman of the Hans Christian 36 Rebel Heart, should go bluewater cruising with children as young as the couple's one- and three-year-old daughters. Many years ago my wife Karen and I circumnavigated on an engineless Columbia 24, and in the process our son Falcon was born in Malta. Mind you, this was after his pregnant mother and I fought the strong headwinds of the Red Sea.

We left Malta after just 10 days, as it was getting cold. We cruised the Med, the Atlantic and the Caribbean, and then transited the Canal when Falcon was 14 months old. We continued on to Hawaii, where we sold the boat, bought a bigger boat, and did another circumnavigation with our still-young son.

Did we do something bad? Were we irresponsible? I don't think so. We and hundreds like us sail(ed) around the world's oceans without calling out for any help. Cruisers do it while home-schooling their children, and while teaching their children personal responsibility - a lesson seldom learned by their shore-born brethren. Growing up cruising gives kids a chance to grow exponentially more than in the structured environments on land.

The truth is that parents who raise kids on boats are not the irresponsible ones; the irresponsible parents are those who raise their kids on land. You farm your children off to inadequate schools, you let them waste their childhood playing video games, and you teach them that good enough is a job well done. Those who sail with their children think differently. We're preparing our children for a new and different world. To be survivors, yes, but more importantly, to be adapters.

If anyone is interested in what became of Falcon, they can buy The Education of Falcon on Amazon. It might open their eyes.

Mike Riley
Beau Soleil, Dickerson 41
Coronado / Whangarei

Readers - We'll have more on the Riley family in the June issue. They have been cruising nonstop for decades on about $500 a month. "I don't know how most cruisers spend so much money," says Mike.*


----------



## christian.hess

christian.hess said:


> hey since this is my favourite thread look at this little exceprpt on this months letters from latitude38
> 
> I could post this on other threads like the sailing with kids threads, the rebel heart thread and the circumnavigation threads but man...just feels like a kick in the nads to all the naysayers out there
> 
> *PREPARING OUR CHILDREN TO BE ADAPTERS
> 
> Latitude asked readers for opinions on whether parents, such as Eric and Charlotte Kaufman of the Hans Christian 36 Rebel Heart, should go bluewater cruising with children as young as the couple's one- and three-year-old daughters. Many years ago my wife Karen and I circumnavigated on an engineless Columbia 24, and in the process our son Falcon was born in Malta. Mind you, this was after his pregnant mother and I fought the strong headwinds of the Red Sea.
> 
> We left Malta after just 10 days, as it was getting cold. We cruised the Med, the Atlantic and the Caribbean, and then transited the Canal when Falcon was 14 months old. We continued on to Hawaii, where we sold the boat, bought a bigger boat, and did another circumnavigation with our still-young son.
> 
> Did we do something bad? Were we irresponsible? I don't think so. We and hundreds like us sail(ed) around the world's oceans without calling out for any help. Cruisers do it while home-schooling their children, and while teaching their children personal responsibility - a lesson seldom learned by their shore-born brethren. Growing up cruising gives kids a chance to grow exponentially more than in the structured environments on land.
> 
> The truth is that parents who raise kids on boats are not the irresponsible ones; the irresponsible parents are those who raise their kids on land. You farm your children off to inadequate schools, you let them waste their childhood playing video games, and you teach them that good enough is a job well done. Those who sail with their children think differently. We're preparing our children for a new and different world. To be survivors, yes, but more importantly, to be adapters.
> 
> If anyone is interested in what became of Falcon, they can buy The Education of Falcon on Amazon. It might open their eyes.
> 
> Mike Riley
> Beau Soleil, Dickerson 41
> Coronado / Whangarei
> 
> Readers - We'll have more on the Riley family in the June issue. They have been cruising nonstop for decades on about $500 a month. "I don't know how most cruisers spend so much money," says Mike.*


see this last sentence?

ziiiing!


----------



## MikeOReilly

> Readers - We'll have more on the Riley family in the June issue. They have been cruising nonstop for decades on about $500 a month. "I don't know how most cruisers spend so much money," says Mike.


Beautiful. Love to hear more from Mike.


----------



## UnionPacific

christian.hess said:


> Cruisers do it while home-schooling their children, and while teaching their children personal responsibility - a lesson seldom learned by their shore-born brethren. Growing up cruising gives kids a chance to grow exponentially more than in the structured environments on land.


How dare you teach children such filth. They need to sing songs praising Obama, and talk about sex positions before age 8 or who knows what may happen! Personal responsibility? Thats anti government! A child should always know they are entitled to anything they want, as a free gift from mother russia USA. BAH! These children will never be brainwashed in the American way taught properly.


----------



## UnionPacific

I guess the BB code for Strikethrough does not work here.... disappointing.


----------



## MikeOReilly

UnionPacific said:


> How dare you teach children such filth.
> 
> _Yah, I'm with ya brother!_
> 
> They need to sing songs praising Obama,
> 
> _Uh, what now?
> _
> and talk about sex positions before age 8
> 
> _How the heck did we get here??
> _
> or who knows what may happen! Personal responsibility? Thats anti government! A child should always know they are entitled to anything they want, as a free gift from mother russia USA. BAH! These children will never be brainwashed in the American way taught properly.
> 
> _You lost me _


UnionPacific, you had me at first, but then you headed off into some paranoid right wing survivor land. Believe it or not, no one is going to force you to become a socialist or accept that collective action is a good thing. No one is coming for your soul, your kid's minds, or your guns.


----------



## aeventyr60

What mind?


----------



## UnionPacific

obama praise in school,




 10 year olds learning sex positions in school, sorry, I thought it was 8
Montana Parents Weigh In on Proposed Kindergarten Sex Ed | Fox News

The entitlement portions comes from the free government grants given to children who want to go to college. 









Sorry, I am not a right wing nut job who thinks there are unanswered questions from 9/11.
I am just a guy who does not forget 99% of what he reads, and checks everything out to see if it is true.
Yes, they are taking guns...
Molon Labe: Connecticut?s Terrifying Start Of Gun Confiscation - Rachel Alexander - Page full


----------



## MikeOReilly

UnionPacific said:


> obama praise in school,
> ...


I guess my real point is, this thread is about frugal cruising. We are not all Americans, and believe it or not, we don't all care about what you think about social programs, or who sings what to whom in your schools. If you want to talk about wacky American politics, please moving over to the political threads.


----------



## UnionPacific

I was responding to Hess' post. Thanks for noticing. You best be concerned with America, if you ever want to cruise here.


----------



## christian.hess

union you lost me to what did I post?

all I remember linking was an excerpt from latitude 38 about among other things the kaufmans on rebel heart, and more importantly how some are cruising on 500 a month for decades now! 

which was the most exciting part for this thread

regarding politics, shmolitics

never understood why people always get into these discussions when it has NOTHING to do with the thread

peace


----------



## christian.hess

UnionPacific said:


> I was responding to Hess' post. Thanks for noticing.* You best be concerned with America, if you ever want to cruise here.*


thats BEYOND uncalled for

please relax man

there are people from all over the world on here, even non english, or native speakers looking for stuff and ideas...

peace


----------



## UnionPacific

christian.hess said:


> thats BEYOND uncalled for
> 
> please relax man
> 
> there are people from all over the world on here, even non english, or native speakers looking for stuff and ideas...
> 
> peace


To dismiss all politics is foolish.


> wacky American politics


Florida right now wants to make it impossible to cruise for under $500 a month. 
To dismiss it, even as someone not from here, is ignorant. I don't want FL to go the way of bahamas, and offer a cruising permit for $300 for 90 days.

Anyway back on topic. 
Next time you quote someone you may want to remove the irrelevant parts.


----------



## MikeOReilly

This has been mentioned before, but I'll agree with you UnionPacific, it is hard to be a frugal cruiser in the USA. I'm not sure what Florida is doing, but your country's, shall we say _unique_ approach to healthcare, the high cost of insurance b/c everyone sues everyone at the drop of a hat, not to mention that over-zealous nature of some of your law enforcement, have all convinced me to either bypass the east coast, or pass through as quickly as possible.

It's sad, b/c there is tremendous geography and human history that I would dearly love to spend time with. I love travelling in America. The people are like most people everywhere; warm, wonderful and welcoming. Ah well... It's a big world out there. Thankfully, there are lots of other places to explore.


----------



## UnionPacific

MikeOReilly said:


> Thankfully, there are lots of other places to explore.


AMEN, cant wait to leave


----------



## killarney_sailor

UnionPacific said:


> I was responding to Hess' post. Thanks for noticing. You best be concerned with America, if you ever want to cruise here.


I suspect that it is a good idea to be concerned about all the countries one is cruising to. Not sure what you mean by 'best be concerned', sounds a bit threatening. If that was not your intention I apologize.


----------



## UnionPacific

killarney_sailor said:


> Not sure what you mean by 'best be concerned', sounds a bit threatening. If that was not your intention I apologize.


The threat is real. If you ignore it and show up unprepared, be ready for fines. In America ignorance is not a defense.


----------



## killarney_sailor

OK, and in all the other countries ignorance is a defence? I think when you get out there you may find that the jurisprudence is not as predictable, and shall I say nice, as in the US.


----------



## ravinracin

UP, A few years ago I left this country for 5 years., courtesy of the US Navy. Do you know what I missed on? A song will come on the radio and everyone will know it, but not me. Politics have never been an issue because of my absence. That crap just keeps going on and on and on and everyday there is another thing we gotta fight against. Man, you sound like you are going to have a coronary about all this stuff. You can't stop it, just chill out a little. Be Frugal. $500. a month remember?


----------



## christian.hess

UnionPacific said:


> To dismiss all politics is foolish.
> 
> Florida right now wants to make it impossible to cruise for under $500 a month.
> To dismiss it, even as someone not from here, is ignorant. I don't want FL to go the way of bahamas, and offer a cruising permit for $300 for 90 days.
> 
> Anyway back on topic.
> Next time you quote someone you may want to remove the irrelevant parts.


union I dont quite understand what this is all about are you stil reffering to me and my post or what?

what quote?

you are reffering in the case if florida to a state, in a specific country in a specific geographical part of the world

while im with you on certain rights, boating rights and cruiser rights I can hopefully offer this advice:

once your out there and cruising you will have less strong and extreme opinions on certain things and many you will simply shrug a shoulder to...

you will become more lax, more understanding, more peacefull...

one of the great things about travelling and cruising for us in this case is the acceptance of other cultures, ways of life, religions, traditions even social and economic as well as govermental systems...

its the differences that make us equal...

I hope you find a way to do this

take care


----------



## mitiempo

UnionPacific said:


> I don't want FL to go the way of bahamas, and offer a cruising permit for $300 for 90 days.


You should do some research. Bahamas cruising permit is valid for one year. $150 for vessels 30 ft and under and $300 for vessels 31 ft and over. This includes a fishing permit. Repair parts may be imported duty free.

From Noonsite:





And yes I agree, lets end the political rant.


----------



## christian.hess

not bad at all


----------



## Kostis

Mike you shouldn't miss East coast all together. This is a mistake. The low country is beautiful. Why would you miss it because of the politicians? And people are not suing all the time. It is just that you hear about it. Anyway, there are the Appalachian the beautiful keys the Savannah and Charleston ( those are the places i know ) Whats the point of traveling the world if you start taking out of your list a good part? 

US is beautiful from what i have seen.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Kostis said:


> Mike you shouldn't miss East coast all together. This is a mistake. The low country is beautiful. Why would you miss it because of the politicians? And people are not suing all the time. It is just that you hear about it. Anyway, there are the Appalachian the beautiful keys the Savannah and Charleston ( those are the places i know ) Whats the point of traveling the world if you start taking out of your list a good part?
> 
> US is beautiful from what i have seen.


Thanks Kostis, wise words. I'm still a couple of years from having to make the decision between doing the Bahamas jump, or perhaps leaping down the east coast in big hops.

I love travelling in the USA. I do it fairly regularly on land (often by motorcycle). Like most Canadians, I live very close to the international border. I love the land, and the people. The problem for us frugal sailors is that the cost of healthcare and boat insurance is so high in the US.

Just about anywhere else in the world healthcare is easily affordable, but if I break my leg in the US, I could be financial ruined. From what I understand (and from the reactions from our American friends) going without significant boat insurance also seems to be a mistake. Both these items will put a major strain on our budget. So sadly, it may come down to a cost-benefit analysis, which when you think about it, is appropriate for the homeland of "free" market thinking .


----------



## UnionPacific

killarney_sailor said:


> OK, and in all the other countries ignorance is a defence? I think when you get out there you may find that the jurisprudence is not as predictable, and shall I say nice, as in the US.


That was not my implication. Some countries are far worse, take for example the ones who prosecute you for murder when you kill in self defense. Yes the US is predictable. If your filthy rich you can murder someone and get away with it, If your poor, your going to jail for 15 years for having a small amount of drugs on you. Back on topic please.


----------



## UnionPacific

Kostis said:


> Mike you shouldn't miss East coast all together. This is a mistake. The low country is beautiful. Why would you miss it because of the politicians? And people are not suing all the time. It is just that you hear about it. Anyway, there are the Appalachian the beautiful keys the Savannah and Charleston ( those are the places i know ) Whats the point of traveling the world if you start taking out of your list a good part?
> 
> US is beautiful from what i have seen.


Charleston was very nice. There are still places to anchor, thou I cannot recall a good place to land a dinghy for free. Downtown is awesome, and there is a ton of history.


----------



## UnionPacific

MikeOReilly said:


> Thanks Kostis, wise words. I'm still a couple of years from having to make the decision between doing the Bahamas jump, or perhaps leaping down the east coast in big hops.


I cannot find enough good things about bahamas to offset the $300 check in fee personally.


----------



## MikeOReilly

MikeOReilly said:


> Thanks Kostis, wise words. I'm still a couple of years from having to make the decision between doing the Bahamas jump, or perhaps leaping down the east coast in big hops.


I guess I should have said Nova Scotia to Bermuda (or some similar arc) to the Bahamas.



UnionPacific said:


> I cannot find enough good things about bahamas to offset the $300 check in fee personally.


Your loss I suspect. $300 for a year of cruising is too high? Sounds pretty reasonable to me. Perhaps you should try Cuba .


----------



## Kostis

I would love to go to cuba, personally but i dont think that would happen any time soon


----------



## christian.hess

well there is a lot to learn out there...for some it might be more steep a learning curve than others it seems

last word of advice...be less strict with your plans and go with the flow...

thats what cruising is about

there are very few countries btw that are much less than 300 for a year

el salvador and mostof central america are around 150 give or take and are pretty lax with renewing your 90 day stay...for example down here in the estuary there are quote a few boats that have been here for years with no problems at all

in any case

that page mitiempo quoted has most of the basic fees and up to date info for cruisers wanting to check into places

cheers

mike I too always have the same fears when I go back to the states, to date I have never had anything really bad happen to me in the states to need big time insurance, but just be careful

regarding boat insurance I have never been one to have it, only when required have I gotten liability insurance for example when I was in berkely in california

maybe there is some cheap coastal insurance for the us east coast while you hop down?

peace


----------



## JonEisberg

mitiempo said:


> Where can you put 1400 watts of panels on a 48' ketch without serious shading?
> 
> They are best in parallel as series will kill output if a panel gets shaded.


One thing rarely mentioned, and that many Milk Run cruisers tend to underestimate: During the course of many westabout tradewwinds/downnwind passages, your solar panels can spend a a good deal of the day beyond midday being shaded by the sails...

On such passages, a water generator could easily be your most reliable and productive source of power...

I was sailing south at this time. Had I been headed west, those panels would likely be in the shade...


----------



## UnionPacific

MikeOReilly said:


> Your loss I suspect. $300 for a year of cruising is too high? Sounds pretty reasonable to me. Perhaps you should try Cuba .


I cannot think of any place I want to hang out for a year. I just wanted to stop in for a week or two. $300 for two weeks is outrageous. Sure, I guess if I stayed for a year it would not be bad.

The islands I am visiting are puerto rico and USVI, both free for me  
I also want to see the volcano island, but cannot think of the name at this moment. I have a passion for volcanoes.


----------



## christian.hess

yup...now when you try to tell those arguing against electric inboard conversions and the regen features some motor kits have I laugh and chuckle a bit since its basically the same as a toweable generator of olden days...without having to tow it...and or lose it

I agree

there are many places and routes where solar can be affected quite a bit so having something like a wind genny or something else for example never hurts

cheers


----------



## UnionPacific

JonEisberg said:


> One thing rarely mentioned, and that many Milk Run cruisers tend to underestimate: During the course of many westabout tradewwinds/downnwind passages, your solar panels can spend a a good deal of the day beyond midday being shaded by the sails...
> 
> On such passages, a water generator could easily be your most reliable and productive source of power...
> 
> I was sailing south at this time. Had I been headed west, those panels would likely be in the shade...


My panels will be mounted like this:








sorry, I just cribbled up a quick drawing. no matter what direction I am sailing, no matter the wind direction, there will always be 1/4 of the panels in the sun. We will also have a 400 watt wind gen, just for passages.

NO. an electric hybrid drive will never pay for itself. The math says so.


----------



## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> I cannot find enough good things about bahamas to offset the $300 check in fee personally.


Well, with over 700 islands and cays spread over a vast area of some of the most beautiful water in the world, I'm guessing you haven't looked very hard..

Just as well, perhaps... I can't see any downside to one less gun being brought into the Bahamas...


----------



## mitiempo

Wind gens work better in windy anchorages, which most try to avoid. On passage the apparent wind is less than true if you are heading downwind. Often noisy too.


----------



## christian.hess

man its hard sometimes...so much knowldege but so little open mindedness

you have a 48 foot boat union so it might not work for you, but it has for others

I was talking eletric drive with regen...didnt even get to hybrud in this forum

sorry bud but your just too negative

ps good luck with only staying in some places for a week max when cruising...hope nothing ever happens to you or your boat but its an impossibility to state such facts like that...

**** happens all the time...you can prepare ALL you want but it just wont happen

happy cruising


----------



## JonEisberg

Note to Self:

_DO NOT_ select a 2006 50' Beneteau as your platform for $500/month cruising...

The tow alone back into Martinique after your rudder falls off will consume more than a full year's budget 



> We could, and probably will eventually write a book but in short we are in dire need of help right now from any kind soul, who cares to lend an ear or hand. We have no insurance company backing us: the 3rd party insurance cover we had did not cover this loss. We are extremely grateful for our lives but the reality of rebuilding our shattered life is upon us.
> 
> We are seafarers and loved our home on the sea. This was a new way of living for us. *We enjoyed a simple live aboard lifestyle, with a budget of $500.00 a month.* We cycled to grocery stores, had no need for a car and never went out to eat or drink.


So, let's man up, folks - these people have a _DREAM_, after all... Only $74,750 to go... 

North Atlantic Survival: Starting Over. by TheBlue Pearl - GoFundMe


----------



## christian.hess

mitiempo said:


> Wind gens work better in windy anchorages, which most try to avoid. On passage the apparent wind is less than true if you are heading downwind. Often noisy too.


x2 yet in the trades we always had a surplus of power...

we had a wind turbine and 2big panels...

we almost always cut the wind genny off with the clutch and later bungeed it in place as the panels had more than enough juice for our needs(including a fridge, ssb)

the noise was a lot and it depends on the manufacturer but specifically the shape of the actuall blades...some are flat and have many blades while others have less blades but are bigger

I noticed that the flat many bladed turbines make less noise but Im sure there are other factors...

anywhoo


----------



## christian.hess

JonEisberg said:


> Note to Self:
> 
> _DO NOT_ select a 2006 50' Beneteau as your platform for $500/month cruising...
> 
> The tow alone back into Martinique after your rudder falls off will consume more than a full year's budget
> 
> So, let's man up, folks - these people have a _DREAM_, after all... Only $74,750 to go...
> 
> North Atlantic Survival: Starting Over. by TheBlue Pearl - GoFundMe


weird weird weird


----------



## MikeOReilly

mitiempo said:


> Wind gens work better in windy anchorages, which most try to avoid. On passage the apparent wind is less than true if you are heading downwind. Often noisy too.


It's funny, but our boat started with a wind generator (which I've upgraded) and am now adding solar. Kind of ass-backwards I know...

The good thing about wind generators is that they can work 24 hrs. Even in protected anchorages you can still get enough wind to put out a couple of amps all the time. This adds up. And it's true about apparent wind downwind, but I find if I we can sail we can generate power. As for noise, there are many new models that are fairly quiet. Not zero sound, for sure, but pretty quiet.

Up here, even during the heat of summer we get maybe six to eight really good hours of solar, and only on clear days. And then there is the shading issue with sails. Solar is obviously better further south, although the daylight hours decrease.

For my money, a combo of solar and wind is the best option.


----------



## christian.hess

yup!


----------



## UnionPacific

christian.hess said:


> man its hard sometimes...so much knowldege but so little open mindedness
> 
> you have a 48 foot boat union so it might not work for you, but it has for others
> 
> I was talking eletric drive with regen...didnt even get to hybrud in this forum
> 
> sorry bud but your just too negative


Math is math, we are not talking about math theory, we are talking math fact. 
Yes these drives do work, no you cannot recoup the upfront cost for the system. IF and thats a big if, fuel was $100 a gallon, then yes, it would pay, but while many places in the world are still under $6 a gallon it will not. You could also build the system yourself if you were an electrical engineer; or you spent a year learning. Negativity has nothing to do with it. you can do most anything, with enough money.


----------



## UnionPacific

JonEisberg said:


> Well, with over 700 islands and cays spread over a vast area of some of the most beautiful water in the world, I'm guessing you haven't looked very hard..
> 
> Just as well, perhaps... I can't see any downside to one less gun being brought into the Bahamas...


Thats ok, when your being cut down by men with a machete, and your yelling help help on the VHF, I hope someone with a gun shows up, because, please, does not work in situations like this.
I will save my $300 for the south pacific. Yes they have check in fees, no they are not $300 per country in most cases (fiji excluded in it's lunacy.)


----------



## UnionPacific

My rational for visiting countries on a budget is like this:

1 location: How far off the trail is it
2 climate: am I going to sweat? 
3 check in cost: Is it reasonable
4 safety: can we leave the yacht at anchor and it still be there, untouched, when we return the same day?
5 desire: what do we want to see there that is not anywhere else?
6 rarity: How many people visit this location each year
7 laws: do I get to leave? Can I legally seal my gun on board?


for a sample lets take two:
pitcarin islands 

1 quite far
2 not too hot
3 $75 for two people
4 flawless safety record
5 bounty island, the cave, the isolated people, diving in a pristine environment
6 less people visit here then Antarctica, even less go diving off Henderson island 
7 gun stays on the yacht, no issue.
Are we going? YES


Galapagos 
1 very close
2 very hot
3 $2500 for two people
4 great safety record
5 wildlife, volcanoes , diving
6 many visitors
7 guns sealed on board, no issue
Are we going NO. The government has made this so pricey that we are skipping one of the worlds most active volcanoes. It may actually be cheaper to berth in peru, and fly in for a visit.

now, the bahamas.

1 next door
2 hot, and not hot, depending on location and time of year
3 $300
4 there have been issues, and you have a good chance to have your dinghy go missing, o your outboard, as this happens quite a bit
5 beaches, pigs, resorts, diving
6 more visitors then Galapagos, Pitcarin, and Antarctica combined, and then many times more then that
7 guns sealed on board, no issues.

For a $500 a month cruising budget you can see how a $300 check in works out with nothing I can't see elsewhere. There are beaches in Florida, resorts in Florida, wild pigs in florida, people in Florida. In fact, I don't see much difference between the keys and the Bahamas. Canadians love the Bahamas for whatever reason, and I have a Canadian friend there now, who is leaving his boat there full time. It has nothing special.


----------



## christian.hess

UnionPacific said:


> Math is math, we are not talking about math theory, we are talking math fact.
> Yes these drives do work, no you cannot recoup the upfront cost for the system. IF and thats a big if, fuel was $100 a gallon, then yes, it would pay, but while many places in the world are still under $6 a gallon it will not. You could also build the system yourself if you were an electrical engineer; or you spent a year learning. Negativity has nothing to do with it. you can do most anything, with enough money.


hey bud its all good

I have a couple threads I started about electric inboards one even for my boat and the overall feeling was the same,

I was looking for diy systems but couldnt get a hold of a nice dc motor for myself...Im not an electrical engineer but was big into rc electrics...youd be surprised how similar systems are, just bigger...

recouping costs has little or anything to do with boating does it? fact is you almost never recoup costs...

especially cruising

take care


----------



## christian.hess

UnionPacific said:


> Thats ok, when your being cut down by men with a machete, and your yelling help help on the VHF, I hope someone with a gun shows up, because, please, does not work in situations like this.
> I will save my $300 for the south pacific. Yes they have check in fees, no they are not $300 per country in most cases (fiji excluded in it's lunacy.)


have you travelled before?

please dont take that as an insult...


----------



## UnionPacific

christian.hess said:


> hey bud its all good
> 
> I have a couple threads I started about electric inboards one even for my boat and the overall feeling was the same,
> 
> I was looking for diy systems but couldnt get a hold of a nice dc motor for myself...Im not an electrical engineer but was big into rc electrics...youd be surprised how similar systems are, just bigger...
> 
> recouping costs has little or anything to do with boating does it? fact is you almost never recoup costs...
> 
> especially cruising
> 
> take care


That is mistake number one, you use an AC motor, not DC. 
Boating for me is a means to an end. The cheaper I can do it, the better my end is. If i spent $45,000 on a hybrid system for our yacht (electric drive cannot work on a very large yacht) That is $40,000 more then it would cost me to repower with a conventional engine. in a sailboat $40,000 buys a lot of fuel, but I don't have to tell you that.


----------



## UnionPacific

christian.hess said:


> have you travelled before?
> 
> please dont take that as an insult...


by land air and sea, just not by sea to foreign land.

EDIT: sorry I typically include photos when I make such claims.


----------



## christian.hess

UnionPacific said:


> That is mistake number one, you use an AC motor, not DC.
> Boating for me is a means to an end. The cheaper I can do it, the better my end is. If i spent $45,000 on a hybrid system for our yacht (electric drive cannot work on a very large yacht) That is $40,000 more then it would cost me to repower with a conventional engine. in a sailboat $40,000 buys a lot of fuel, but I don't have to tell you that.


ac is for regen but mor complicated to the effect that if the controller dies you cant hardwire the motor

so its not a mistake depending in how you look at it

dc motors are simple and can be byppassed and hardwired direct to battery banks chosing the amount of voltage so for example in a 48 volt kit you can run 2 or 4 or 6 or 8 bagtteries and still be in business

the downside is you have to find a way of manually gearing the prop if you want regen

which was done btw on boats back in the day, you had pulley systems on the shafts taht ran small alternators

its a great way to make cheap energy

for example for you boat size you are looking at a kit costing around 8-10k plus batteries and other stuff

dont know where you are getting the 45k number from(hybruds yes) way too expensive still...

anyways

I wont get into more discussions really since for now I have decided to use an outboard since shipping a system down here was going to cost me as much as the kit itself for my boat

the system I was about to buy was a nice non regen kit from electric motorsport.com

it was 15kw max power with 10kw constant...

ready to go was around $2500 plus batteries and a charger

I had a line on a little yanmar2qm15, but it had a bad tranny...so getting a tranny down here would be cost ineffective

what was effective was finding a dime a dozen outboard since I already had a large dual bracket system on my transon

so being effective with a means to an end like you say...I went that logical route

so I think you can see Im not just arguing with you for arguments sake...


----------



## christian.hess

UnionPacific said:


> by land air and sea, just not by sea to foreign land.


again please dont take offence but you will LEARN a lot as soon as you cruise to a foreign land, do the day long check in rituals and dances to the banks and navy and or captains office, imigration or not, etc..etc...

its just very different in many of the places you have even quoted(galapagos for example) than what you make it out as...


----------



## UnionPacific

christian.hess said:


> again please dont take offence but you will LEARN a lot as soon as you cruise to a foreign land, do the day long check in rituals and dances to the banks and navy and or captains office, imigration or not, etc..etc...
> 
> its just very different in many of the places you have even quoted(galapagos for example) than what you make it out as...


Please enlighten me as to how the Galapagos can be very cheap?

Yes, I know about check ins just from reading other sailors blogs. Some are easy, others are a nightmare.


----------



## christian.hess

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell

when we where *there *it cost us about $100 per person...we were on a spanish boat I used my american passport they they eu passports...

I have learned that some things have changed...mostly restrictions on how long you can stay and what islands you can visit(also they have more laws on a pesticide and health checkup, as well as the condition of your hull bottom, you have to do from panama or wherever you leave to get there) I have also learned they are much more expensive but if you just look at the $$ and not the experience then its hard to justify leaving your house and tv ever right?

we did the 2nd larget caldera volcano trip, galapagueras, and I even did some fishing, yes dont say anything but hey, why not...?

I also swam with sealions in a completey fear free environment, one of the highlights of my life even touched them...

we also on some other Island I forget, before leaving for hiva oa had one of the best meals on land ever, all of the spanish speaking cruisers and french that were about to leave for french polynesia pitched in

we made paella, sangria portuguse made some octupus and stuff, tapas, etc...

all cause we made friends with some spansih people that were living and working on the island in some non profit organisation

we also got to climb to the highest spot on isabella island and got to test out the big HAM NET radio station with people all over the world...

this same station is where we got our weather info on our trip to the south pacific

so back to your question:

from my experience it was not more expensive than french polynesia...for example or other countries we visited might be now...dunno yet.

so just understand that some of us HAVE been to the places you are kind of bashing or ticking off a list, without any physical knowldge of the subject...

take care


----------



## Kostis

What about wave generators? I think they are cool. 3rd backup system


----------



## killarney_sailor

UnionPacific said:


> My rational for visiting countries on a budget is like this:
> 
> 1 location: How far off the trail is it
> 2 climate: am I going to sweat?
> 3 check in cost: Is it reasonable
> 4 safety: can we leave the yacht at anchor and it still be there, untouched, when we return the same day?
> 5 desire: what do we want to see there that is not anywhere else?
> 6 rarity: How many people visit this location each year
> 7 laws: do I get to leave? Can I legally seal my gun on board?
> 
> for a sample lets take two:
> pitcarin islands
> 
> 1 quite far
> 2 not too hot
> 3 $75 for two people
> 4 flawless safety record
> 5 bounty island, the cave, the isolated people, diving in a pristine environment
> 6 less people visit here then Antarctica, even less go diving off Henderson island
> 7 gun stays on the yacht, no issue.
> Are we going? YES
> 
> Galapagos
> 1 very close
> 2 very hot
> 3 $2500 for two people
> 4 great safety record
> 5 wildlife, volcanoes , diving
> 6 many visitors
> 7 guns sealed on board, no issue
> Are we going NO. The government has made this so pricey that we are skipping one of the worlds most active volcanoes. It may actually be cheaper to berth in peru, and fly in for a visit.
> 
> now, the bahamas.
> 
> 1 next door
> 2 hot, and not hot, depending on location and time of year
> 3 $300
> 4 there have been issues, and you have a good chance to have your dinghy go missing, o your outboard, as this happens quite a bit
> 5 beaches, pigs, resorts, diving
> 6 more visitors then Galapagos, Pitcarin, and Antarctica combined, and then many times more then that
> 7 guns sealed on board, no issues.
> 
> For a $500 a month cruising budget you can see how a $300 check in works out with nothing I can't see elsewhere. There are beaches in Florida, resorts in Florida, wild pigs in florida, people in Florida. In fact, I don't see much difference between the keys and the Bahamas. Canadians love the Bahamas for whatever reason, and I have a Canadian friend there now, who is leaving his boat there full time. It has nothing special.


I think you need to do a lot more research before you are able to say where you will go and will not go. For example, not sure where you think the Galapagos is very close to. Also, we did not find it at all crowded with tourists and the cost was much less than $2500 for two people. The admiral is also the chancellor of the exchequer so I don't remember the exact price but it was less than $1000 including the agent's fee. Also you don't fly there from Peru but from Ecuador and the air tickets are a lot more than they should be for a flight of 600 miles or whatever. Once you get there hotels and travel between islands are not cheap, so having your own boat makes sense.

We went through the Bahamas on our way to Panama and it provided a nice break along the way. The Bahamas cover a huge chunk of ocean and most parts are very safe and quite lovely. It is worth the $300.

To routing. You have mentioned stopping in the USVI and Puerto Rico. I assume you will go directly to USVI from North Carolina or similar? Then were? I think the volcano island you want to go to is Montserrat. The anchorage there is OK and you are only a mile or two from the volcano, but you are not allowed to go to the southern half of the island were the volcano is. You can hike to the top of a volcano that is dormant, but smouldering in Guadeloupe and visit St Pierre the town that was obliterated in 1902. Guadeloupe is France, not sure how they view guns there, don't care.

You mention going to Pitcairn. It is a neat spot but there is no real anchorage there so it is a quick visit spot. The year we were there a Polish single hander hove to for two weeks waiting for the weather to improve so he could anchor. Someone got to anchor for a week or 10 days that season but that was exceptional. Generally it is a day visit or two at most. To get less than 100' of water to anchor you have to be very close to the cliffs and it is never comfortable. When we were there we had three wave trains - from the south, the north east and the north west. Add to the that the waves bouncing off the cliffs and it is nasty.
Not sure where you intend to go to Pitcairn from. It is very long way from Panama, which will cost you the best part of $1000 not counting the canal. We stopped in Ecuador (not cheap, but terrific), Galapagos (not cheap but terrific), Easter Island (pretty cheap, terrific, but terrible anchorage (find the little square of sand)).

Also getting to Peru is a particular ***** with the Humboldt Current. I think many nights spent curled up reading might be a really good idea, so you will know how to figure out what routes make sense. Suggesting that you would go to Peru indicates you have not done so. If someone wanted to go to Peru (not many places to go there btw) the easiest (not the shortest) would be Panama, Galapagos, Easter, Peru. Long way, but at least you would not be beating your brains out trying to get south along a nasty, barren chunk of coast.

Edit: Galapagos is a good spot for seeing volcanic effects not so much for active volcanoes (Indonesia is great for that). Fernandina Island (think about Master and Commander) is the newest island and the one that is most moon-like. You can't get a permit to go there and not too many tours visit it since it is remote. Go to the Galapagos for wildlife, not volcanoes.


----------



## christian.hess

bingo...if you want active volcanoes you can come here too...one just erupted a few months ago...

but I can probably imagine you already ticked off el salvador on the no go list for some other reason 

just a hunch!


----------



## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> For a $500 a month cruising budget you can see how a $300 check in works out with nothing I can't see elsewhere. There are beaches in Florida, resorts in Florida, wild pigs in florida, people in Florida. In fact, I don't see much difference between the keys and the Bahamas.


Seems obvious you haven't seen much of the Bahamas...

But, hey, that's fine with me... Frankly, I wish more cruisers would just stay put in Florida, assuming there's not much difference between the Keys...










and the Bahamas...


----------



## aeventyr60

The South pacific will be too crowded, gun control laws are strict, Fiji has constant revolutions, vanuatu has severe malaria and Dengue, Australia sucks with it's laws regarding cruisers, New Zealand has become pricey, Indonesia is full of pirates and belching volcanoes, so you may just want to stay in florida....


----------



## killarney_sailor

aeventyr60 said:


> The South pacific will be too crowded,
> but only with the nicest people
> 
> gun control laws are strict,
> Is French Polynesia one of the places where you have to pick up your guns where you dropped them off, i.e. 2000 miles to windward?
> 
> Fiji has constant revolutions,
> But it is lovely country between military coups and the coups tend to be quite peaceful
> 
> vanuatu has severe malaria and Dengue,
> We had no problem with those but did have a 7.5 quake
> 
> Australia sucks with it's laws regarding cruisers,
> Not to mention the cost. Between our visas and quarantine costs it was over $500
> 
> New Zealand has become pricey,
> Nothing bad to say about NZ except that I wished I had been there 20 years ago when it was really cheap
> 
> Indonesia is full of pirates and belching volcanoes,
> We quite liked Indonesia although a lot of motoring there, We found sailing winds to be few and far between. You do feel rich with a million rupiah in your wallet as you go from place to place (to place to place) to do check out procedures.
> 
> so you may just want to stay in florida....


Sad, but true. I think UP is trying to find places that are like home rather than embracing the wonderful differences the world offers.


----------



## christian.hess

its the differences that make us unique and EQUAL!

embrace them

cheers


----------



## christian.hess

JonEisberg said:


> Seems obvious you haven't seen much of the Bahamas...
> 
> But, hey, that's fine with me... Frankly, I wish more cruisers would just stay put in Florida, assuming there's not much difference between the Keys...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and the Bahamas...


I still remember a trip we made to the bahamas while my dad still could sail(he had md) I was about 8 years old...we crossed the gulf through a bunch of storms then made it to some of the most beautiful little islands and such....my dad speared a parrot fish funilly enough and we had a blast with my brother he was 4

I also remeber being pushed out into "open water" on one of those inflatable pool lounge thingies and got reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally scared looking at the bottom of the ocean and seing all the fish and stuff in the crystal clear waters

anywhoo

nice pics


----------



## travlin-easy

Nothing wrong with staying put in the Florida Keys, and those keys between Key West and the Dry Tortugas are just beautiful, not at all crowded, often no boats other than a couple commercial crabbers for days on end. I fished the Marquesses keys for two weeks and never saw another boat the entire time. What a beautiful place - gin clear water, huge barracuda to 6-feet long, lots of permit, and out at Cosgrove Light, monster grouper, mutton snapper to 30 pounds, yellowtail snapper to 8 pounds, huge king mackerel, some monster dolphin to 50 pounds - OH YEAH!

As for anchorages, totally secluded and sheltered just inside the Marquesses at the south entrance, plus a deepwater trough filled with snapper, grunts and lobster just inside the entrance at Boca Grande Key.

There's a lot of sheltered water for boats drawing less than 5 feet in the Lakes Passage, and also a great, protected anchorage just west of Key West and on the west side of the Northwest Channel inside Mule Key Basin.

Now, it's about 50 miles from the Marquesses Keys to the Dry Tortugas, and you have to cross Rebeca Shoal, which can be a bit hairy when the wind is kicking above 25 MPH, but it's well worth the trip. Talk about remote - this place is about as remote as it gets in U.S. waters. The water clarity is incredible, snorkeling is beyond belief, but if the weather kicks up you could spend a week or more waiting for a weather window to return to the Marquesses and Key West. Of course, the same is true with the Bahamas as well.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dry+Tortugas+National+Park/@24.628477,-82.873187,2a,90y,90t/data=!3m5!1e2!3m3!1s48591818!2e1!3e10!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x5bb10efd57331da1!6m1!1e1

I guess the question you must ask yourself is "What do you wish to do once you get there?" Restaurants - lots of them in the keys and some much better than anything I experienced in the Bahamas, but I haven't been to the Bahamas in a long time. Bars, nite spots, clubs, they're everywhere and the quality varies everyplace you visit, both inside and outside the US. Seclusion, well, I just outlined some above, but it depends upon how long you wish to spend without making contact with another human being. Diving/snorkeling, it's great both in the Bahamas and the lower Florida Keys. Sailing conditions, about the same in both locations. I had a ball sailing on the gulf side of 7 Mile Bridge, and out in the Atlantic side near Sombrero Light. Great day sails and spent the nights in Marathon playing music for the ladies.

I guess it all boils down to what you expect at your destination,

Gary


----------



## UnionPacific

killarney_sailor said:


> I think you need to do a lot more research before you are able to say where you will go and will not go. For example, not sure where you think the Galapagos is very close to. Also, we did not find it at all crowded with tourists and the cost was much less than $2500 for two people. The admiral is also the chancellor of the exchequer so I don't remember the exact price but it was less than $1000 including the agent's fee. Also you don't fly there from Peru but from Ecuador and the air tickets are a lot more than they should be for a flight of 600 miles or whatever. Once you get there hotels and travel between islands are not cheap, so having your own boat makes sense.
> 
> We went through the Bahamas on our way to Panama and it provided a nice break along the way. The Bahamas cover a huge chunk of ocean and most parts are very safe and quite lovely. It is worth the $300.
> 
> To routing. You have mentioned stopping in the USVI and Puerto Rico. I assume you will go directly to USVI from North Carolina or similar? Then were? I think the volcano island you want to go to is Montserrat. The anchorage there is OK and you are only a mile or two from the volcano, but you are not allowed to go to the southern half of the island were the volcano is. You can hike to the top of a volcano that is dormant, but smouldering in Guadeloupe and visit St Pierre the town that was obliterated in 1902. Guadeloupe is France, not sure how they view guns there, don't care.
> 
> You mention going to Pitcairn. It is a neat spot but there is no real anchorage there so it is a quick visit spot. The year we were there a Polish single hander hove to for two weeks waiting for the weather to improve so he could anchor. Someone got to anchor for a week or 10 days that season but that was exceptional. Generally it is a day visit or two at most. To get less than 100' of water to anchor you have to be very close to the cliffs and it is never comfortable. When we were there we had three wave trains - from the south, the north east and the north west. Add to the that the waves bouncing off the cliffs and it is nasty.
> Not sure where you intend to go to Pitcairn from. It is very long way from Panama, which will cost you the best part of $1000 not counting the canal. We stopped in Ecuador (not cheap, but terrific), Galapagos (not cheap but terrific), Easter Island (pretty cheap, terrific, but terrible anchorage (find the little square of sand)).
> 
> Also getting to Peru is a particular ***** with the Humboldt Current. I think many nights spent curled up reading might be a really good idea, so you will know how to figure out what routes make sense. Suggesting that you would go to Peru indicates you have not done so. If someone wanted to go to Peru (not many places to go there btw) the easiest (not the shortest) would be Panama, Galapagos, Easter, Peru. Long way, but at least you would not be beating your brains out trying to get south along a nasty, barren chunk of coast.
> 
> Edit: Galapagos is a good spot for seeing volcanic effects not so much for active volcanoes (Indonesia is great for that). Fernandina Island (think about Master and Commander) is the newest island and the one that is most moon-like. You can't get a permit to go there and not too many tours visit it since it is remote. Go to the Galapagos for wildlife, not volcanoes.


Thank you for all that good information. We are planning a passage that starts in FL and stops in Antarctica before turning north and either going inside thru chile, or going outside with the current going north.

So the prelim goes like this so far:
FL usa, PR usa, USVI usa, debating Brazil, Montserrat is the one thank you. then south to falklands, and considering sandwich, then off to Antarctica, up to visit chile in a few ports, peru, maybe belize (considering land purchase) up to San Francisco usa, then off to HI usa, then south pacific. That all I have planned so far, and that is not set in stone.

I will be doing a few things people consider a challenge. Going round the horn the wrong way, going open ocean thru the roaring 40's, visiting Antarctica. I hope they go smooth, but I am prepping for a rough trip.


----------



## UnionPacific

aeventyr60 said:


> The South pacific will be too crowded, gun control laws are strict, Fiji has constant revolutions, vanuatu has severe malaria and Dengue, Australia sucks with it's laws regarding cruisers, New Zealand has become pricey, Indonesia is full of pirates and belching volcanoes, so you may just want to stay in florida....


your reading comprehension is low. I am seeking volcanoes.


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## christian.hess

hate to break it to you but so is yours man...

have a good one!


----------



## UnionPacific

killarney_sailor said:


> Sad, but true. I think UP is trying to find places that are like home rather than embracing the wonderful differences the world offers.


If I was clicking my heals wishing for home I would not plan to visit Picitain island, peru, falklands, japan, taiwan, madigascar, israel (thou one could argu it not much different then red hook new york city) the black sea and turkey, poland, germany, egypt and syria (we will see where they are in 2-3 years) I love diferent cultures. Otherwise I could have bought a nice home in new york for what I spent on my yacht


----------



## killarney_sailor

UnionPacific said:


> Thank you for all that good information. We are planning a passage that starts in FL and stops in Antarctica before turning north and either going inside thru chile, or going outside with the current going north.
> 
> So the prelim goes like this so far:
> FL usa, PR usa, USVI usa, debating Brazil, Montserrat is the one thank you. then south to falklands, and considering sandwich, then off to Antarctica, up to visit chile in a few ports, peru, maybe belize (considering land purchase) up to San Francisco usa, then off to HI usa, then south pacific. That all I have planned so far, and that is not set in stone.
> 
> I will be doing a few things people consider a challenge. Going round the horn the wrong way, going open ocean thru the roaring 40's, visiting Antarctica. I hope they go smooth, but I am prepping for a rough trip.


Going down the coast toward Brazil is not easy - currents against you to 2 knots in places, hard on the wind for a long way (to the bulge in Brazil). Also, this is not a nice area to visit if you are concerned about crime. You also have Belize on the wrong side of Central America, it does not have a Pacific shoreline.

Most people who want to go to Antarctica go down the Pacific side of SA Ecuador, Galapagos, Easter, southern Chile (by all accounts fabulous) to Patagonia, Antarctica and then return up the Atlantic side. In the right season you get a nice ride up the coast of Brazil until you are in the trades and then it gets easy.

I think it makes sense to think about routes and seasons rather than specific destinations. This is where Cornell is very useful since he has digested a lot of info from pilot charts and peoples' experiences.

My first reaction, considering that you have said you have little experience with sailboats that it might be a good idea to put the Patagonia, Antarctica, Falklands stuff on hold for a few years while you develop a lot more experience. That is a nasty part of the world and not a place to do much learning.


----------



## christian.hess

yeah man...even the coast off venezuela, guyana and colombia can be an absolute kick to the balls

and regarding patagonia, ushuaia and the like we met some chileans who frequently cruised there and not only the physical aspect of sailing there is hard chile is completely and absolutely burocreatic country...

and EXPENSIVE

they have a great navy though....

honestly at this point its more of asking you to think things over and study and learn and really try to get ready, the boat and others with you...

for safety reasons

most people who start out sailing dont say, well I think the horn is my idea of a nice cruise out there the off to pitcairn!

bottom line is you need more experience...

but hey

we all learn somehow, someway

in the end good luck


----------



## JonEisberg

killarney_sailor said:


> My first reaction, considering that you have said you have little experience with sailboats that it might be a good idea to put the Patagonia, Antarctica, Falklands stuff on hold for a few years while you develop a lot more experience. That is a nasty part of the world and not a place to do much learning.


That's putting it rather mildly, I'd say... 

Yeah, when I think of ideal destinations for someone with a 48-footer trying to keep their yearly budget under $6K, Antarctica doesn't exactly rise to the top of the list...


----------



## christian.hess

I like how the bahamas is out for some reason yet antartica, chile and the tip of south america is somehow budget friendly...

not only that but youll be motoring a lot if you go inside a lot...and spending lots on fuel...

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanywhoo


----------



## UnionPacific

JonEisberg said:


> That's putting it rather mildly, I'd say...
> 
> Yeah, when I think of ideal destinations for someone with a 48-footer trying to keep their yearly budget under $6K, Antarctica doesn't exactly rise to the top of the list...


lol then you post a photo of a schooner there?


----------



## JonEisberg

christian.hess said:


> I like how the bahamas is out for some reason yet antartica, chile and the tip of south america is somehow budget friendly...


Sailing a private yacht to Antarctica - legally - is far easier said than done...

Even more so, in the wake of the tragedy a couple of years ago involving that Norwegian a$$hole who lost several of his crew...

Yeah, I have a hard time picturing being able to fit search and rescue insurance "with a very high level of liability" for the most remote region on earth into a bare-bones cruising budget:



> The tragedy may have serious repercussions for cruising yachts intending to sail to Antarctica in the future, believes high latitudes sailor and charterer Skip Novak.
> 
> "The ramifications will be enormous," he tells me. "Antarctica is no longer a wilderness, it's a managed territory with guidelines that have been in place for decades.
> 
> "You have to apply to one of the Antarctic Treaty countries for a permit and you have to meet stringent environmental concerns, a search and rescue plan and you have to have insurance with a very high level of liability. If you don't you can be prosecuted."
> 
> http://www.noonsite.com/Members/sue/R2011-05-21-2


----------



## UnionPacific

Then I guess I will go illegally. Not really a police force there where I want to go.
I am also not going to the ross sea.


----------



## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> Then I guess I will go illegally. Not really a police force there where I want to go.


The notion of "Leaving a Clean Wake" is obviously foreign to you...

Your selfishness, and willingness to potentially make things more difficult for other sailors willing to play by the rules, puts you in the same company as Jarle Andhoy...

Sorry, you don't deserve to share the same waters with a guy like Skip Novak. Perhaps your reckless disregard for how your actions might affect the cruising community at large should be applied to saving your $300, and not checking into the Bahamas, instead...



UnionPacific said:


> I am also not going to the ross sea.


You're never going to Antarctica, period...

Wish I could find a bookmaker in Vegas who'd take that bet...


----------



## desert rat

All pictures of schooners are deeply apriciated.


----------



## mitiempo

MikeOReilly said:


> It's funny, but our boat started with a wind generator (which I've upgraded) and am now adding solar. Kind of ass-backwards I know...
> 
> The good thing about wind generators is that they can work 24 hrs. Even in protected anchorages you can still get enough wind to put out a couple of amps all the time. This adds up. And it's true about apparent wind downwind, but I find if I we can sail we can generate power. As for noise, there are many new models that are fairly quiet. Not zero sound, for sure, but pretty quiet.
> 
> Up here, even during the heat of summer we get maybe six to eight really good hours of solar, and only on clear days. And then there is the shading issue with sails. Solar is obviously better further south, although the daylight hours decrease.
> 
> For my money, a combo of solar and wind is the best option.


Solar is my first choice - no noise, no moving parts, maintenance free. Shading not an issue most of the time if installed aft. Second choice is a towed gen if making long passages. I am not considering a wind gen.

Most wind gens either make some noise or vibration. Less effective on passage and not very effective in protected anchorages. Mechanical so maintenance can be an issue at times. There are really 2 types, the smaller multi blade units that do not have a high output but usually start to work at lower wind speeds - Ampair is one good example. It is quiet and doesn't have to be tied down in gales as many do. The larger higher output gens can be more prone to noise, especially from inadequate installation.

Towed generators are effective if making long offshore passages, not so much coasting. Output is about 1 amp per knot of speed and the drag is minimal - 1/4 knot or so in a small boat. They have a greater output than a regen system as their propeller is designed only to produce power and is not a compromise. Not many companies produce them, Aquair being one. Sharks sometimes take the prop as a snack.


----------



## copacabana

JonEisberg said:


> That's putting it rather mildly, I'd say...
> 
> Yeah, when I think of ideal destinations for someone with a 48-footer trying to keep their yearly budget under $6K, Antarctica doesn't exactly rise to the top of the list...


Jon, is that Oleg Bely's boat, "Kotic", in the photo?


----------



## UnionPacific

JonEisberg said:


> The notion of "Leaving a Clean Wake" is obviously foreign to you...
> 
> Your selfishness, and willingness to potentially make things more difficult for other sailors willing to play by the rules, puts you in the same company as Jarle Andhoy...
> 
> Sorry, you don't deserve to share the same waters with a guy like Skip Novak. Perhaps your reckless disregard for how your actions might affect the cruising community at large should be applied to saving your $300, and not checking into the Bahamas, instead...
> 
> You're never going to Antarctica, period...
> 
> Wish I could find a bookmaker in Vegas who'd take that bet...


Besides not making sense when you type I have no regard for what you say.
I already knew that would create a wake when I said it. I knew there would be someone who could not help but comment on that very thing. Antarctica is for the entire world to enjoy, not for governments to control. We already have 6 continents under control of fascism. We don't need one more. So you should take a big chill pill, realize your on the internet here, and unless I say I am going there for penguin beaks calm down.


----------



## copacabana

Just curious Union, but what are the 6 continents under fascism?


----------



## UnionPacific

copacabana said:


> Just curious Union, but what are the 6 continents under fascism?


Seeing as how I listed the one without, you should already know. There are only 7 total.


----------



## copacabana

I see. So Australia and New Zealand are fascist? Europe? North America (well, Canada anyway...)? South America? Hmmm.... I think you have a tenuous grip on geopolitics and the meaning of the word fascism. 

What are you planning to shoot down in Antarctica?


----------



## UnionPacific

copacabana said:


> I see. So Australia and New Zealand are fascist? Europe? North America (well, Canada anyway...)? South America? Hmmm.... I think you have a tenuous grip on geopolitics and the meaning of the word fascism.


The word fascism to me means oppression of people for the alleged greater good of the ruling class. Although we may never see the true definition of fascism again, we can see hidden fascism. I could go thru and make a list, but this is the $500 a month thread, not the "the world is fascist" thread. 



> What are you planning to shoot down in Antarctica?


Sea Shepard hippies.

EDIT: that should probably be yuppies.


----------



## copacabana

Just a sec while I get my tinfoil hat so we can continue this conversation...


----------



## UnionPacific

copacabana said:


> Just a sec while I get my tinfoil hat so we can continue this conversation...


I find it worrying that it is readily available to you 
So we can keep this on topic, Was the tin foil hat within your $500 a month budget?


----------



## UnionPacific

I guess I would need a tin foil hat in Brazil too. I would be in jail a lot for helping people that were shot on the street. Its my understanding that you are prosecuted for murder if you help someone who was shot and then dies. However I am up here, watching live leak, not down there living it.


----------



## Kostis

UnionPacific said:


> Antarctica is for the entire world to enjoy, not for governments to control. We already have 6 continents under control of fascism. We don't need one more.


I thought i would never hear this. Well said mister


----------



## JonEisberg

copacabana said:


> Jon, is that Oleg Bely's boat, "Kotic", in the photo?


It was about 10 years ago, so I don't recall the name, but I'm almost certain it was...


----------



## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> Besides not making sense when you type I have no regard for what you say.
> I already knew that would create a wake when I said it. I knew there would be someone who could not help but comment on that very thing. Antarctica is for the entire world to enjoy, not for governments to control. We already have 6 continents under control of fascism. We don't need one more. So you should take a big chill pill, realize your on the internet here, and unless I say I am going there for penguin beaks calm down.


Well, I hope you'll post some pics after you make it down there...

Given your apparent struggles navigating the infamous ICW, I won't be holding my breath...

Just a heads-up, you won't find many marinas down there like the one in Ocean City, MD that you called, requesting them to send out a skiff to guide you in through the inlet in the fog...

I'll bet the folks at Sunset Harbor are still chuckling about that one...


----------



## UnionPacific

JonEisberg said:


> Well, I hope you'll post some pics after you make it down there...
> 
> Given your apparent struggles navigating the infamous ICW, I won't be holding my breath...


you mean the same struggles most experience on the ICW, including shoaling? or are you referring to bad food?


----------



## christian.hess

UnionPacific said:


> Then I guess I will go illegally. Not really a police force there where I want to go.
> I am also not going to the ross sea.


the chilean navy is among the best,and patrol their waters accordingly, they also have you check in daily and will not let you travel and have you on radar everywhere you are going...once you are in tierra del fuego

you cannot just hop in an out cause you will get fined and get the boat locked up big time

they take this stuff seriously


----------



## UnionPacific

christian.hess said:


> the chilean navy is among the best,and patrol their waters accordingly, they also have you check in daily and will not let you travel and have you on radar everywhere you are going...once you are in tierra del fuego
> 
> you cannot just hop in an out cause you will get fined and get the boat locked up big time
> 
> they take this stuff seriously


That was my understanding, but I believe you can relay plans to go outside and still keep checking in.


----------



## christian.hess

yeah you have to have a floatplan and destination every day...and check in...especially if you go in and out inn and out

if you do check in the country I beleive they can also deem your boat unsuitable for sailing those waters and can make you leave or not sail down...basically they quarantine you...if they think you are unprepared

cant remember where I read that but I wouldnt doubt the info.

the roths I beleive(the spencer 35 boat) that did this back in the 60s foundered on a shoal and deeply damaged their boat

even back then when it was a freer time the chilean navy was on them every move(back then it WAS more fascist btw)

in any case

to me as a comparison a solo non stop circumnavigation is easier than navigating these types of waters, the chance of damaging, running aground, getting on to a lee shore, getting hit or hitting ice, damage by wind, etc...all make it much more technical and hard

you have to modify your boat, or should have those big spools with 300 feet of rode on all corners for example...to tie onto shore, steady yourself in deep anchorages, etc...

massive anchor and backup systems, winches, windlasses...

a very well working engine...in tip top shape

hard dodger and enclosed cockipt awnings, as well as countless other mods like watertight bulkheads, reinforcements in rudder stocks, areas, keel etc...

modding a boat for high latitude sailing is a big undertaking...

for a cheap example look at motissiers dome in the forepeak vee berth area that he made as well as his dual steering setup to check the seas without going outside...

he had a very nice wheel steering system inside the cabin to protect himself from the seas and would steer looking out a window.

the steel boat I cruised on mimicked this exact same setup to the t...motissier was 39 feet we where 37.

these are just but a few examples of whats really is needed to go down there...

not to mention sails, rigging and stuff

again at this point its general advice for anyone, myself included, not just you...I havent been that far down anyways...always wanted too though.

seems we have strayed a bit off subject especially in the 500 month thread, seems there are a million circumnav threads now so start a new one or similar one too...

just my cents


----------



## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> you mean the same struggles most experience on the ICW, including shoaling? or are you referring to bad food?


well, I hope you can manage to wean yourself off dependence upon restaurants by the time you depart the Falklands...

If you're venturing into that part of the world, you really shouldn't miss South Georgia...

Oh, wait... A visit there would require obtaining the requisite permit from those Fascist Brits, scratch that...

Too bad, it's an awesome place...


----------



## MikeOReilly

I hate playing the nanny here, but can we get back to frugal sailing? This thread has survived other odd tangents. Lets not give in now. For those of you who want to discuss politics (particularly American) or how to get to Antarctica with no experience, can I suggest you move to other threads (unless you're going to do it on $500/month). 

I know it's hard to resist, but if we stop responding to silly posts, this drift will stop. This is about sharing ideas about how to cruise inexpensively in an increasingly expensive world.


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## UnionPacific

This thread may be done. I think all $500 a month ideas have been hashed, however I think the only discussion is people asking questions. 

Anyway on the cold front, how many cruise on $500 a month in very cold areas?
Has anyone done the north west passage on the budget?


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## MikeOReilly

I'm considering purchasing some used sails for our boat. I've been looking at places like Used Sails from Second Wind Sails and Bacon Sails & Marine Supplies.

Has anyone had any direct experience with buying used sails from these kinds of places?

Are there any other good ones out there?

Finally, how do you judge the ratings. What does "very good" actually mean?


----------



## christian.hess

well minnies in california is anoher one but far away from you and usually you go in person

however when I went I was quote dissapointed as I was looking for anchors and the used ones were barley cheaper than new ones off the shelf at west marine of all places

sails there is a bunch to chose from

man last time I was checking crasiglist and some guy had almost new sails for my boat as well as 2 years old standing rigging since he went all furling and new AGAIN

for a song...but shipping a sail down here would be mad expensive so I backed down...

are there any forums specific to you exact boat? Im sure there are, usally the web sites have classified sections specific to their boats

I know my islander does altough honestlt not much selling and buying action on it

good luck

oh mike I believe they have a rating chart for those types of places

like real good means good stitching no uv degradation etc...whereas a poor rating would mean rips or old, or thinned out and stained etc...


----------



## UnionPacific

MikeOReilly said:


> I'm considering purchasing some used sails for our boat. I've been looking at places like Used Sails from Second Wind Sails and Bacon Sails & Marine Supplies.
> 
> Has anyone had any direct experience with buying used sails from these kinds of places?
> 
> Are there any other good ones out there?
> 
> Finally, how do you judge the ratings. What does "very good" actually mean?


When I buy a backup main sail it will be here:
MINNEY'S YACHT SURPLUS - WE MAKE BOATING AFFORDABLE
Heard many great things about them.


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## killarney_sailor

Mike, I have bought and sold through Bacon's. Their condition descriptions seem fairly conservative. A 'very good' would be that. An 'excellent' sail would be close to new condition. If your current sails will get you to Annapolis you can visit. They are happy to spread a sail out so you can check it over. When we were there, they had something like 9000 sails.


----------



## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> Anyway on the cold front, how many cruise on $500 a month in very cold areas?
> 
> Has anyone done the north west passage on the budget?


Looking at his boat, one might be forgiven for believing Matt Rutherford did his trip on the cheap...










However, the cost of his 10 month voyage averages out to roughly $3K per month _IN EXCESS OF_ the mystical $500/month figure...

Hmmm, that might give pause to some of the 'Dreamers' out there... 

Not so much as a single check in with customs, a marina stay, a restaurant meal, or a single beer bought in almost a year of 'voyaging'...


----------



## UnionPacific

JonEisberg said:


> Looking at his boat, one might be forgiven for believing Matt Rutherford did his trip on the cheap...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, the cost of his 10 month voyage averaged out to roughly $3K per month _IN EXCESS OF_ the mythical $500/month figure...
> 
> Hmmm, that might give pause to some of the 'Dreamers' out there...


I would love to see the break down of costs, I am guessing there were a ton of items breaking?


----------



## travlin-easy

In reality, other than engine problems, there's usually not a lot that will break while just plain sailing - at least that's been my experience. Granted, anything can break, including the human body, but most of the time we tend to get a lot of mileage out of just about everything on the boat - including ourselves.

Gary


----------



## UnionPacific

travlineasy said:


> In reality, other than engine problems, there's usually not a lot that will break while just plain sailing - at least that's been my experience. Granted, anything can break, including the human body, but most of the time we tend to get a lot of mileage out of just about everything on the boat - including ourselves.
> 
> Gary


That is what I am not understanding, how did he spend $3500 a month on this trip? where did you get that information?


----------



## tommays

I am sure much of it was upfront things like the huge amount of diesel he carried as well as being resupplied at sea 

I don't believe he was able to carry 1 year of food and spares on a 27' going through some of the worst places on earth 

BUT it is all written down free to read


----------



## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> I would love to see the break down of costs, I am guessing there were a ton of items breaking?


Matt kept things pretty simple, not exactly a "ton" of stuff to break on that boat...

His PUR Survivor 35 manual watermaker crapped out early on, he was resupplied with a new one off Newfoundland... Other than the boat slowly falling apart, and almost sinking from under him during the final stages of the trip, not a whole lot of costly 'breakage', that I can see...

One of his biggest expenses was likely sat phone minutes, but even crossing that, and the cost of his two re-supply missions underway off the list, that only reduces his total cost to a monthly average of $2700...



> Just to clear one thing up. A local newspaper miss quoted Don Backe about the amount for the resupplies. Then Fox and the Washington Post did the same. So the cost for the resupplies and sat phone minutes was around $8,000 not $40,000. The entire trip cost around $35,000, all things included.
> 
> Back on Land | Solo Around the America's Under Sail


----------



## MikeOReilly

killarney_sailor said:


> Mike, I have bought and sold through Bacon's. Their condition descriptions seem fairly conservative. A 'very good' would be that. An 'excellent' sail would be close to new condition. If your current sails will get you to Annapolis you can visit. They are happy to spread a sail out so you can check it over. When we were there, they had something like 9000 sails.


Thanks KS, that's what I was hoping to hear. I like Bacon's site. Easy to use and their descriptions give me confidence. But first hand experience is gold. Thanks!


----------



## JonEisberg

tommays said:


> I am sure much of it was upfront things like the huge amount of diesel he carried as well as being resupplied at sea
> 
> I don't believe he was able to carry 1 year of food and spares on a 27' going through some of the worst places on earth
> 
> BUT it is all written down free to read


He started out with about 80 gallons of diesel, if memory serves... Not all that major an expense, in the big picture. Of course, for most larger yachts doing the NW Passage, fuel is likely to be a significant part of the budget, and the cost of re-fuelling in places like Resolute or Cambridge Bay very high. Probably in the vicinity of $8/gallon, these days...

Matt's food was almost all freeze-dried, and he carried enough to get him all the way through. The re-supplies enroute were not planned upon prior to his departure, and when they did occur, didn't include much in the way of provisions. I recall he was brought a Virginia Ham per special request, and a bottle or two of Scotch, but a few 'treats' like that were about it, if I recall correctly...


----------



## UnionPacific

JonEisberg said:


> He started out with about 80 gallons of diesel, if memory serves... Not all that major an expense, in the big picture. Of course, for most larger yachts doing the NW Passage, fuel is likely to be a significant part of the budget, and the cost of re-fuelling in places like Resolute or Cambridge Bay very high. Probably in the vicinity of $8/gallon, these days...
> 
> Matt's food was almost all freeze-dried, and he carried enough to get him all the way through. The re-supplies enroute were not planned upon prior to his departure, and when they did occur, didn't include much in the way of provisions. I recall he was brought a Virginia Ham per special request, and a bottle or two of Scotch, but a few 'treats' like that were about it, if I recall correctly...


what is the distance from Newfoundland to nome? would my 1800 mile range make it without a refuel? ( I would sail when I could)


----------



## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> what is the distance from Newfoundland to nome? would my 1800 mile range make it without a refuel? ( I would sail when I could)


Just eyeballing my globe here on my desktop, looks like roughly 5,000 miles to me... I think it's highly unlikely many sailing vessels make it thru without refueling, as that trip often turns out to be a motor job most of the way.


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## killarney_sailor

Jon, diesel fuel up there would be a lot more than $8/gal. It is close to $5/gal in Toronto and the refineries are pretty close to the gas stations. If it was under $10 I would be surprised.


----------



## JonEisberg

killarney_sailor said:


> Jon, diesel fuel up there would be a lot more than $8/gal. It is close to $5/gal in Toronto and the refineries are pretty close to the gas stations. If it was under $10 I would be surprised.


That's what I would have thought, as well...

But, apparently not so... these prices quoted are a few years old, but diesel prices haven't really risen all that much in the interim:



> Diesel fuel like all fuel prices are skyrocketing. April 2011 price for a liter of diesel in Cambridge Bay Nunavut Canada is $1.31/liter. Remember this price is based upon the price of fuel delivered last August 2010 during the annual sealift. If diesel prices increase proportionately (doubtful) the following price forecast is possible:
> 
> USA National Diesel Prices:
> April 2010 = $2.83/gallon
> April 2011 = $3.54/gallon, 125% increase
> 
> Cambridge Bay Nunavut Canada Diesel Price:
> April 2011 = $1.31/liter x 3.7854 liters/gallon = $4.96/gallon
> 
> August 2011 forecast at 125% increase = $6.20/gallon ($1.64/liter)
> 
> Northwest Passage 2012 dot com: DIESEL FUEL - Forecasting Arctic Diesel Prices


----------



## smurphny

Who would have ever thought we'd be paying this much for diesel! Simply mind boggling. Seems I remember it being about 25 cents in the 1960s


----------



## aeventyr60

Some cruising friends of my mine paid close to $9.00 a gallon in PNG recently......


----------



## UnionPacific

JonEisberg said:


> Just eyeballing my globe here on my desktop, looks like roughly 5,000 miles to me... I think it's highly unlikely many sailing vessels make it thru without refueling, as that trip often turns out to be a motor job most of the way.


according to open CPN you will have to motor 1500 miles during the 3800 mile trip. I would stop wherever and just get 100 gallons of fuel. I am basing "have to motor" on waters less then 30 miles wide. Of course if the wind is favorable you could sail all but 500 miles. there are a few narrow passes. from cape cod to nome is 4500 miles  an easy trip. as long as the ice is low.


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## killarney_sailor

Jon, the fuel delivery cost must be heavily subsidized (by me it would appear). Diesel in Toronto is more expensive than those prices.

UP, your assumptions about when you motor and when you sail are simplistic at best. Most of this trip is in the polar easterlies and the winds are just not very reliable up there in the summer. When the ice opens up you have to move and move fast, you can't be trying to find the wind that will keep you sailing at 3 knots.


----------



## UnionPacific

killarney_sailor said:


> UP, your assumptions about when you motor and when you sail are simplistic at best. Most of this trip is in the polar easterlies and the winds are just not very reliable up there in the summer. When the ice opens up you have to move and move fast, you can't be trying to find the wind that will keep you sailing at 3 knots.


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxUG_7A_tUT8SrYKgC6FB0A

you could be very correct, I have not made the trip myself. Just going from written accounts, and videos.


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## mitiempo

No wonder you think diesel is so inexpensive - those are the puny US gallons. Ours are about 25% larger.


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## newhaul

smurphny said:


> Who would have ever thought we'd be paying this much for diesel! Simply mind boggling. Seems I remember it being about 25 cents in the 1960s


In Nov and December of 2000 I was paying just over $5 us a gallon and it spiked like that again in 08/09 that was road diesel in the united states


----------



## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> according to open CPN you will have to motor 1500 miles during the 3800 mile trip. I would stop wherever and just get 100 gallons of fuel. I am basing "have to motor" on waters less then 30 miles wide. Of course if the wind is favorable you could sail all but 500 miles. there are a few narrow passes. from cape cod to nome is 4500 miles  an easy trip. as long as the ice is low.


Well, if you say so...

The notion of making a splash & go for 'just enough' diesel to make it to Nome "wherever" along that route, as if it's little different from motoring down the ICW, is an amusing one, to say the least...

As killarney says, you are probably greatly overestimating the amount of sailing likely to be done on that route. One of the downsides of cruising in the high Arctic in summer, is the high preponderance of calms, and it seems that most boats doing the NW Passage are fortunate if they are able to sail anywhere close to 50% of the total distance...

Unless you're pioneering some new route between Cape Cod and Nome, you might want to double-check your calculation of the total distance... The crew of the NZ yacht TOKIMATA logged almost 3500 NM between Nome and Aassiaat, Greenland - which is over 2000 miles north of Cape Cod:



> For the sailors amongst you, here are some statistic of the trip. We have covered 5287 nautical miles (9,797 km) since leaving Sitka (3423 NM since Nome), done an average of about 80 miles per day including all stops since leaving Nome for the passage proper - the short season and long distances require a fast rate of progress compared to normal cruising. We have run the engine for 427 hours since Nome, including motorsailing and straight motoring and some battery charging. That works out to around 50% of the distance covered purely under sail and the rest either sailing with the motor assisting or full-on motoring. We've used about 970 litres of diesel at an average cost of around US$1.20 per litre. 250 litres was used for heating (Dickenson diesel heater) and 720 litres for propulsion. The warmest days we had were nearly 20 deg C in Nome and the coldest about 0 deg C on Baffin Island. The sea water temperature has ranged from about 10 deg C at Sitka and Nome down to -2 deg C near Victoria Island. We had one day with snow, about 10 days with rain out of 90 days travelling, around 10 days with significant fog (mainly in the last 2 weeks), 3 or 4 days with strong winds (40 knots or more) and probably 30 days of flat calm. We had to work through sea ice (broken up pack ice no more than 3/10 coverage) on about 5 or 6 days - along the north coast of Alaska and off the west coast of King WIlliam Island in Victoria Straight. We had to watch for big icebergs (shed from the Greenland Glaciers) for about 10 or 12 days from the east end of Bellot Strait onwards. The current has been with us most of the way, giving us around 350 "free miles" or nearly 10% extra boost on average. Nothing serious has broken on the boat - we replaced an alternator in Nome, repaired a torn genoa sail as sea, replaced the autopilot display unit with a spare as sea, jury rigged a spare fluxgate compass for the autopilot when close to the magnetic north pole, and fixed a seized anchor windlass solenoid with a big hammer. Most of the spares and emergency equipment we had we not used but we wouldn't be without them as there is almost no help available quickly in the arctic and you must be self reliant.
> 
> Tokimata's Travels


----------



## UnionPacific

JonEisberg said:


> Well, if you say so...
> 
> The notion of making a splash & go for 'just enough' diesel to make it to Nome "wherever" along that route, as if it's little different from motoring down the ICW, is an amusing one, to say the least...
> 
> As killarney says, you are probably greatly overestimating the amount of sailing likely to be done on that route. One of the downsides of cruising in the high Arctic in summer, is the high preponderance of calms, and it seems that most boats doing the NW Passage are fortunate if they are able to sail anywhere close to 50% of the total distance...
> 
> Unless you're pioneering some new route between Cape Cod and Nome, you might want to double-check your calculation of the total distance... The crew of the NZ yacht TOKIMATA logged almost 3500 NM between Nome and Aassiaat, Greenland - which is over 2000 miles north of Cape Cod:











this is 4800 miles, and its NOT exact by any means.
I am glad he listed fuel used for heat. that is helpful. It looks like the fuel cost of the trip was about $1200 for him. At 1.20 a liter. looks like motoring the entire way would cost me 800 gallons, plus heat. thats for 4500 miles. I can carry 300 gallons easy, 1800 miles. so I would need an additional 500 IF I had to motor the whole way. I dont see having to motor more then 2500 MAX, based on the first 1000 is open ocean if your outside. I know there may be better routes, and planning exact routes comes later. Just chatting now about it.


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## wind_magic

Union Pacific has just demonstrated why everyone should click on my "feature request" and support it! 

We need to be able to resize images in our posts!


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## UnionPacific

wind_magic said:


> Union Pacific has just demonstrated why everyone should click on my "feature request" and support it!
> 
> We need to be able to resize images in our posts!


I do not support it. your PC settings are wrong, or your on a netbook.
My laptop is only set to 1600x900 and that only takes up 2/3 of my screen. most new laptops are at least 1080x1920 so a photo like that should be easily viewed. 
Do this, right click desktop, then left click screen resolution. Tell me what your setting is.
this image is 1000 pixels wide. unless your set at 800x600 you should see it all in one glance.


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## smurphny

newhaul said:


> In Nov and December of 2000 I was paying just over $5 us a gallon and it spiked like that again in 08/09 that was road diesel in the united states


I used to feel that price rises in fuel were justified by using the "Ten times rule:" houses in the 60s-25k, now 250k, cars in the 60s-2k, now 20k. Most prices follow this equation pretty well. It seems that fuel has taken off above that general rule by a large margin. Fuel was .25 then, should be $2.50 now. Of course the cost of recovery is greater now. Crude no longer is there for taking by simple methods.

In driving to and from where my boat is, I've noticed great price discrepancies along the East Coast. The last trip: S. Carolina-$3.05, NY-$3.65. The tax we pay in NY is outrageous.


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## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> this is 4800 miles, and its NOT exact by any means.
> I am glad he listed fuel used for heat. that is helpful. It looks like the fuel cost of the trip was about $1200 for him. At 1.20 a liter. looks like motoring the entire way would cost me 800 gallons, plus heat. thats for 4500 miles. I can carry 300 gallons easy, 1800 miles. so I would need an additional 500 IF I had to motor the whole way. I dont see having to motor more then 2500 MAX, based on the first 1000 is open ocean if your outside. I know there may be better routes, and planning exact routes comes later. Just chatting now about it.


Well, good luck with that route... The NW Passage via Hudson Strait, Foxe Basin, and Fury & Hecla Straits has NEVER been completed by a yacht...

There's good reason why virtually everyone goes over the top of Baffin Island... Fury and Hecla Straits, in most years, remain choked with ice throughout the season, and because it it off the primary commercial shipping routes in the Canadian Arctic, outside of the primary areas of operation of the CG icebreakers...

Northwest Passage 2014: NW Passage 2014. Which way are you going to go? Seven basic routes - ICE DETERMINES THE ROUTE


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## smurphny

I don't think that route is going to put the Panama Canal out of business any time soon


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## killarney_sailor

Jon, that website is very interesting. I thought about doing the Northwest Passage for about a week a year or so ago. I concluded it would be a very costly undertaking. i want to travel in the high arctic. There are a cheaper ways to do it.

UP, your fuel estimates make little sense. You are assuming you put the pedal to the metal and do 6 knots. From what I researched, you can get stuck for long periods of time trying to find openings in the ice. You are still using lots of fuel but not really going anywhere. I imagine at times you might have to push through light ice (not breaking it, just pushing it out of the way. I imagine that would really burn through the fuel. I think in considering whether to do this sort of undertaking the cost of diesel as a determining factor should be way down the list. The other costs (and potential costs, like losing your boat and your lives) should be way higher.

I did some research and fuel costs in the arctic are much subsidized. There seemed to be concern that the fund used for subsidies was running in a deficit and prices were going up, but still way below market when you think of the costs of delivery.


----------



## killarney_sailor

smurphny said:


> I don't think that route is going to put the Panama Canal out of business any time soon


When we were in Panama we were told by a couple of people that they are very concerned about the competition. Ignoring the high cost of using the canal the fuel savings between Europe and China are huge. Remember ships can go where sailboats can't and icebreaker support would be more available (and affordable).


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## Kostis

So anyone with actual used sails? How much do you save %? Is it worthy it?


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## wind_magic

UnionPacific said:


> I do not support it. your PC settings are wrong, or your on a netbook.
> My laptop is only set to 1600x900 and that only takes up 2/3 of my screen. most new laptops are at least 1080x1920 so a photo like that should be easily viewed.
> Do this, right click desktop, then left click screen resolution. Tell me what your setting is.
> this image is 1000 pixels wide. unless your set at 800x600 you should see it all in one glance.


How big you think my screen resolution should be is beside the point.

We still need a way to resize the images - what if the image you had linked to had been 5000 pixels across ? Wouldn't you want to be able to resize it to 1600 or whatever you want it to be ?

Btw, it's a personal decision, but I try to keep the images small enough that they don't change the normal boundaries for the forum, it makes it easier for people who have their browsers set up to view the default forum width without having to resize windows just for my post.


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## Kostis

Someone suggested engines for bicycles. I think with the combination of an aluminum bicycle might be the answer to a lot of savings. You can anchor further and still travel.


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## MikeOReilly

Kostis said:


> Someone suggested engines for bicycles. I think with the combination of an aluminum bicycle might be the answer to a lot of savings. You can anchor further and still travel.


I see those things running around here. If they can be hooked to a folding bike you might have a good idea Kostis.


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## smurphny

Some countries have regulations and registrations for bicycles. An engine would probably complicate bureaucratic bs. Those folding bikes IMO are totally useless. I keep a standard size, 10 speed, high quality bike aboard. I break it down completely for storage which is not a problem. With a good bike (a good lock) and a backpack, you can travel a long way to get provisions without having to deal with another freakin' motor. You also get some exercise. I have a rear rack on the bike to which I can tie a box as well or another backpack. A Rubbermaid type storage box works very well.


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## smurphny

killarney_sailor said:


> When we were in Panama we were told by a couple of people that they are very concerned about the competition. Ignoring the high cost of using the canal the fuel savings between Europe and China are huge. Remember ships can go where sailboats can't and icebreaker support would be more available (and affordable).


Maybe it will keep them from raising the RIDICULOUS price again.


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## killarney_sailor

Most of us cruise on boats that are of very finite size and we have reasonably (or unreasonably) limited budgets. With a 45' we have had no problem filling up pretty much all the space inside and out. The reality for us that we did not find a need for bicycle basically anywhere. The places you anchor and the places ashore you might want to go fall into one or more of the following:
1. nothing is very far away so you just walk. 
2. the place you want to go is too far away to go on a bike
3. the place you want to go has traffic and/or safety situations that would preclude a bike.

You have to remember that in most places you go most people do not have a car or even motor scooter. They rely on local buses. In most cases the buses are a paragon of private enterprise. Most common are 15 passenger Toyotas, although in some places they can be small cars. In all cases these things are quite cheap. In Colon, Panama, not the nicest place around, a taxi for two people is $1 to anywhere in town.

I remember in one place in Indonesia we walked to the local market and came back with our purchases in a 'taxi', which was the back end of a 1/4 ton pickup pulled by a small horse. Why would you want to ride a bike when you can have an experience like that.

The other thing I can't imagine is getting a bicycle (let along two) from an anchorage to the shore. Some places there is a good swell and you land on a beach. Even a folder on our 10' dinghy would be a pain. At best the bike gets sprayed with salt water.


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## killarney_sailor

smurphny said:


> Maybe it will keep them from raising the RIDICULOUS price again.


You don't have to go that way of course. There are other options that are free. When you see what is involved in a Panama transit the cost really is not ridiculous. They could make it a more efficient process. I could live without an advisor for example, but I have transited the St Lawrence Seaway locks and lots of smaller ones. I think the boats we were with that had not done locks liked having the advisor.


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## Kostis

Good folding bikes are just better. They are never regular bikes. You can add a stabilizer to it but i have never personally tried on mine. I like the folding bike for being cool but i dont trust it for more than a ride around the neighborhood. On my regular bicycle on the other hand i take it sometimes to and back from work . And work is far away


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## smurphny

killarney_sailor said:


> You don't have to go that way of course. There are other options that are free. When you see what is involved in a Panama transit the cost really is not ridiculous. They could make it a more efficient process. I could live without an advisor for example, but I have transited the St Lawrence Seaway locks and lots of smaller ones. I think the boats we were with that had not done locks liked having the advisor.


Being soaked for $1000+ to get a 30-50' boat through a couple of locks is simply outrageous, sorry. The "advisor" idea and having to feed and shelter an extra person is absurd for all but the totally incapable. Having 6 people aboard is even more absurd. This is not rocket science. A little pamphlet and some pre-lock advice would suffice. I've been through locks singlehanded hundreds of times, mostly on the Champlain Canal. The PC is larger but the idea is the same. You go in, you get lines on, the water goes up or down, you go out.


----------



## Lou452

MikeOReilly said:


> I guess my real point is, this thread is about frugal cruising. We are not all Americans, and believe it or not, we don't all care about what you think about social programs, or who sings what to whom in your schools. If you want to talk about wacky American politics, please moving over to the political threads.


 Good point this is about how to save money and cruise 
I am American and care You have the right to have and express a point of view along with the rest of the Americans North or south they could fill this thread with local politics. lets get back to the boat. 
Kind regards, Lou


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## MUSIC40

I don't think I could do 500 a month but I also don't want to be too cold too hot or too hungry.

Just started reading this thread and I'm looking forward to learning some things that will help me be wise - I tend to be cheap on some things and an impulsive I want the best on other stuff so I'm sure there is room for improvement!


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## killarney_sailor

smurphny said:


> Being soaked for $1000+ to get a 30-50' boat through a couple of locks is simply outrageous, sorry. The "advisor" idea and having to feed and shelter an extra person is absurd for all but the totally incapable. Having 6 people aboard is even more absurd. This is not rocket science. A little pamphlet and some pre-lock advice would suffice. I've been through locks singlehanded hundreds of times, mostly on the Champlain Canal. The PC is larger but the idea is the same. You go in, you get lines on, the water goes up or down, you go out.


First of all it is not $1000+ unless you hire an agent and line handlers and rent the lines and fenders. It is easy enough to arrange all these things (we did, so anyone could). You don't feed the advisor, you give him lunch. For comparison sake, the Welland Canal (8 locks - 7 very closely spaced) is $240.

This thing is not remotely like the Champlain Canal (done that and the Erie, and the Trent along with Welland and St Lawrence locks) if you tried to do it the same way you would wreck your boat. The idea of six people is for a centre lock transit where you do need one person on each corner along with the skipper and advisor. I went through the PC twice which means four advisors since it is a two day process (could be one but it is there canal so I guess they get to run it the way they want). One was terrific, one was useless ('What did you do yesterday? Did it work? Do the same today), and two were in-between. I would be happy without one but most people seemed to like the idea.

The aft line handlers are really important. We had these lines go through deck chocks to large sheet winches. The boats really wanted to go forward to the extent that you could see the 7/8" lines stretch and get smaller. Not much pressure on the bow lines that we could see. Also, the advisors occasionally would ask for a little reverse from the captain.

It does get a little silly when you have multiple boats going through rafted. We had three - a 50ish catamaran, and a mono around 34'. Now you have 3 advisors, 3 skipper and 12 line handlers. Of these two skippers used their engines (we were a little extra steering for the cat while the mono did not have his engine on for the two series of locks). Only four line handlers worked. As it turned out the advisors wanted the lines on our boat and on the cat. They felt that the cleats/chocks on the little monohull would pull out (I think they were right). Turned out to be a bit of party. We got to know the people on the other boats during the locking and when we were tied for the night in Gatun Lake to the biggest mooring you have ever seen. You could have had a smallish square dance on it literally. I guess their mooring only come in one size.

Back to my point in the other post. They can charge whatever they want for the use of their canal. You can choose not to use it. BTW, wonder if anything is happening with the proposed Chinese canal through Nicaragua?


----------



## smurphny

It's their canal only because we turned it over to them but you're right that they can charge anything they want because they can. There is no competition. When and if I go through, I will look upon the gouge as a donation to a third world country. I saw one recent post, forget where it was, from someone transiting that they spent $1200 when all was said and done. The Champlain Canal, with 12 locks, costs $15 for two days, no line handlers required


----------



## MikeOReilly

smurphny said:


> Some countries have regulations and registrations for bicycles. An engine would probably complicate bureaucratic bs. Those folding bikes IMO are totally useless. I keep a standard size, 10 speed, high quality bike aboard. I break it down completely for storage which is not a problem.


Good point about the gas engine and local bureaucracy. One might have to be careful. I can't see carrying a full bike anywhere on my 37-footer, except on the deck, which I'd want to avoid at all cost. Maybe if I was stationary for a long time I might consider that.



killarney_sailor said:


> Most of us cruise on boats that are of very finite size and we have reasonably (or unreasonably) limited budgets. With a 45' we have had no problem filling up pretty much all the space inside and out. The reality for us that we did not find a need for bicycle basically anywhere. The places you anchor and the places ashore you might want to go fall into one or more of the following:


That's my thinking as well KS. While I like the idea of a bike, I can't really see it as being all that useful. But this is yet another thing that can likely only be answered by doing it. No bike right now. If we find they are useful, we'll get a couple along the way.


----------



## UnionPacific

JonEisberg said:


> Well, good luck with that route... The NW Passage via Hudson Strait, Foxe Basin, and Fury & Hecla Straits has NEVER been completed by a yacht...
> 
> There's good reason why virtually everyone goes over the top of Baffin Island... Fury and Hecla Straits, in most years, remain choked with ice throughout the season, and because it it off the primary commercial shipping routes in the Canadian Arctic, outside of the primary areas of operation of the CG icebreakers...
> 
> Northwest Passage 2014: NW Passage 2014. Which way are you going to go? Seven basic routes - ICE DETERMINES THE ROUTE


I dont think it would add much mileage.


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## smurphny

Mike, when I take the wheels, pedals, and seat off and loosen the handlebars so they are in the same plane as the frame, it is easy to stow somewhere. I usually leave it apart in the dink and assemble it on land. I have often pedaled 20+ miles to get places. Besides using it for getting supplies, it's nice for sightseeing. To me having a good lightweight bike with clip-in pedals, good gearing, and the necessary equipment to fix it if it breaks or gets a flat is really important. A good bike is a means of serious transportation.


----------



## travlin-easy

The bike I had in Marathon Key, Florida was a godsend. Everything was a long walk away, and that bike allowed me to make a trip to the post office, grocery store, then make a stop on the way back to the boat at the local liquor store. I had just one flat tire, Island Outfitters fixed it, including a new, heavy duty innertube, for $20 while I waited. Additionally, those rides were good exercise for this old man and I really needed it after two months sitting at the helm. Believe me, a new Huffy will be going with me on my next trip.

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## MikeOReilly

Thanks guys. I can see where having a bike might be a useful tool if one was staying put for long periods of time. I anticipate I'll be doing that sort of cruising once we get out of the Great Lakes and out the St. Lawrence. This is still two years away though, so I don't think I'll invest in one yet. 

I hear what you're saying about getting a real bike smurphny, but are all the folding ones junk? Are there no good ones out there?


----------



## christian.hess

killarney_sailor said:


> First of all it is not $1000+ unless you hire an agent and line handlers and rent the lines and fenders. It is easy enough to arrange all these things (we did, so anyone could). You don't feed the advisor, you give him lunch. For comparison sake, the Welland Canal (8 locks - 7 very closely spaced) is $240.
> 
> This thing is not remotely like the Champlain Canal (done that and the Erie, and the Trent along with Welland and St Lawrence locks) if you tried to do it the same way you would wreck your boat. The idea of six people is for a centre lock transit where you do need one person on each corner along with the skipper and advisor. I went through the PC twice which means four advisors since it is a two day process (could be one but it is there canal so I guess they get to run it the way they want). One was terrific, one was useless ('What did you do yesterday? Did it work? Do the same today), and two were in-between. I would be happy without one but most people seemed to like the idea.
> 
> The aft line handlers are really important. We had these lines go through deck chocks to large sheet winches. The boats really wanted to go forward to the extent that you could see the 7/8" lines stretch and get smaller. Not much pressure on the bow lines that we could see. Also, the advisors occasionally would ask for a little reverse from the captain.
> 
> It does get a little silly when you have multiple boats going through rafted. We had three - a 50ish catamaran, and a mono around 34'. Now you have 3 advisors, 3 skipper and 12 line handlers. Of these two skippers used their engines (we were a little extra steering for the cat while the mono did not have his engine on for the two series of locks). Only four line handlers worked. As it turned out the advisors wanted the lines on our boat and on the cat. They felt that the cleats/chocks on the little monohull would pull out (I think they were right). Turned out to be a bit of party. We got to know the people on the other boats during the locking and when we were tied for the night in Gatun Lake to the biggest mooring you have ever seen. You could have had a smallish square dance on it literally. I guess their mooring only come in one size.
> 
> Back to my point in the other post. They can charge whatever they want for the use of their canal. You can choose not to use it. BTW, wonder if anything is happening with the proposed Chinese canal through Nicaragua?


its been approved...big news for us down here...


----------



## christian.hess

smurphny said:


> It's their canal only because we turned it over to them but you're right that they can charge anything they want because they can. There is no competition. When and if I go through, I will look upon the gouge as a donation to a third world country. I saw one recent post, forget where it was, from someone transiting that they spent $1200 when all was said and done. The Champlain Canal, with 12 locks, costs $15 for two days, no line handlers required


Im very sorry you feel this way...but it shows a lot of hatred for reasons unknown

it also shows resentment...like your angry the panama canal was "given" to the panamanians since it was written that the canal was a loan from the beginning

in any case

panama is a great country and once in the capital youd be surprised how UN 3RD world country it is, with such a big financial district, booming nightlife, old casco, great food and tourism, some of the best beaches and islands in the world etc etc...

one thing we can agree on maybe is that panamian hard labor is non existent...in fact its part of the reason panama is such a great spot to work for salvadorean, guatemalans, costaricans etc...people flock to panama cause some careers cant be fulfilled by panamanians...

they are very lax and laid back...they can really enjoy life(think carnivals in the interior of the country)

having lived there for 2 years on and off I got to really know the people and culture...

and yes, lovely ladies too

its a shame but I have met many cruisiers who think this way...

like every place they go to they are supposed to owe something to "america" for some reason or other

I wont get political here and Ill end it with this

simply put leave the attitude(this goes for anyone from anywhere) when you start cruising...or go around or whatever...whats the point?

whats the point of always being right in an imperfect world too?

hardly worth it. Youll get dissapointed quick...

I dont mean to offend or anything here but having lived it with a crew who felt the need to lambast everyone below him all the time everywhere he cruised it got old and embarassing...and very TIRING

there are many cruisers out there like this...like they are very very UNHAPPY

while in paradise...its a sad sad sight to see

peace


----------



## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> Thanks guys. I can see where having a bike might be a useful tool if one was staying put for long periods of time. I anticipate I'll be doing that sort of cruising once we get out of the Great Lakes and out the St. Lawrence. This is still two years away though, so I don't think I'll invest in one yet.
> 
> I hear what you're saying about getting a real bike smurphny, but are all the folding ones junk? Are there no good ones out there?


there are VERY VERY good marine commuter bikes on the market, and very EXPENSIVE at that too

its the crappy ones that wont last

youd be surprised how good they are to ride and how fast you can commute on them

I should know I worked in a bike shop for a long time!

I wouldnt take my current mtb on my boat now...its too cumbersome and it would get in bad shape quick...plus my dinghy is small, but a folding commuter bike and bingo


----------



## JonEisberg

christian.hess said:


> there are VERY VERY good marine commuter bikes on the market, and very EXPENSIVE at that too
> 
> its the crappy ones that wont last
> 
> youd be surprised how good they are to ride and how fast you can commute on them
> 
> I should know I worked in a bike shop for a long time!
> 
> I wouldnt take my current mtb on my boat now...its too cumbersome and it would get in bad shape quick...plus my dinghy is small, but a folding commuter bike and bingo


Agreed, a high quality folder can afford surprisingly good performance...

Several years ago I bought a discontinued aluminum Dahon, the equivalent of what is now their D8, I believe... It's a far cry from the sort of chintzy little Dahons one usually sees in West Marine. Retailed for about $600 at the time, I probably paid about half of that... turned out to be one of the better purchases I've made, I love the damn thing...

Especially in places like the Bahamas, it can really extend your ability to explore ashore... Or, as Gary mentioned, it's fantastic to have a bike in a place like Marathon... And in a place like the Isles de Madeliene, it can provide one hell of a workout...










Still, even as compact as it is, it's a challenge to stow aboard a boat as small as mine... And, it can be a real PITA to bring ashore in a tender. Bringing TWO bikes ashore in most tenders, good luck with that...

It's turned out to be a great solution for me, the only way I can carry a bike aboard my 30-footer... No freakin' way would I ever cruise with a full-size bike stowed on deck, I'd just do without if it came to that...

I'm 6' 5", so I know I must look incredibly stupid on one of these things...










I don't care, I never would have made the beautiful trip on Cat Island up to the tiny hamlet of Stevenson - the childhood home of the actor Sidney Poitier - without it


----------



## christian.hess

yeah dahon has been a standard for a looooong time now!

cool pics


----------



## wind_magic

JonEisberg said:


> I don't care, I never would have made the beautiful trip on Cat Island up to the tiny hamlet of Stevenson - the childhood home of the actor Sidney Poitier - without it


Sidney Poitier is so cool.


----------



## copacabana

christian.hess said:


> Im very sorry you feel this way...but it shows a lot of hatred for reasons unknown
> 
> it also shows resentment...like your angry the panama canal was "given" to the panamanians since it was written that the canal was a loan from the beginning
> 
> in any case
> 
> panama is a great country and once in the capital youd be surprised how UN 3RD world country it is, with such a big financial district, booming nightlife, old casco, great food and tourism, some of the best beaches and islands in the world etc etc...
> 
> one thing we can agree on maybe is that panamian hard labor is non existent...in fact its part of the reason panama is such a great spot to work for salvadorean, guatemalans, costaricans etc...people flock to panama cause some careers cant be fulfilled by panamanians...
> 
> they are very lax and laid back...they can really enjoy life(think carnivals in the interior of the country)
> 
> having lived there for 2 years on and off I got to really know the people and culture...
> 
> and yes, lovely ladies too
> 
> its a shame but I have met many cruisiers who think this way...
> 
> like every place they go to they are supposed to owe something to "america" for some reason or other
> 
> I wont get political here and Ill end it with this
> 
> simply put leave the attitude(this goes for anyone from anywhere) when you start cruising...or go around or whatever...whats the point?
> 
> whats the point of always being right in an imperfect world too?
> 
> hardly worth it. Youll get dissapointed quick...
> 
> I dont mean to offend or anything here but having lived it with a crew who felt the need to lambast everyone below him all the time everywhere he cruised it got old and embarassing...and very TIRING
> 
> there are many cruisers out there like this...like they are very very UNHAPPY
> 
> while in paradise...its a sad sad sight to see
> 
> peace


Couldn't agree more Christian!
Every time I hear the term "third world" I feel the hairs on my neck rise... I only know of one world and we are all on it together.


----------



## smurphny

MikeOReilly said:


> Thanks guys. I can see where having a bike might be a useful tool if one was staying put for long periods of time. I anticipate I'll be doing that sort of cruising once we get out of the Great Lakes and out the St. Lawrence. This is still two years away though, so I don't think I'll invest in one yet.
> 
> I hear what you're saying about getting a real bike smurphny, but are all the folding ones junk? Are there no good ones out there?


I'm probably biased against those small wheeled bikes, having been into the sport of bike riding. I used to think nothing of pedaling 100 miles and don't really see how any real distance could be covered on those little wheels. Have never seen one of those folding bikes in a century ride I'm sure some of them must be of good quality but the ones I've seen in bike racks around marinas actually look fairly heavy. A good standard bike is very light, pick up with one finger light.


----------



## smurphny

christian.hess said:


> Im very sorry you feel this way...but it shows a lot of hatred for reasons unknown
> 
> it also shows resentment...like your angry the panama canal was "given" to the panamanians since it was written that the canal was a loan from the beginning
> 
> in any case
> 
> panama is a great country and once in the capital youd be surprised how UN 3RD world country it is, with such a big financial district, booming nightlife, old casco, great food and tourism, some of the best beaches and islands in the world etc etc...
> 
> one thing we can agree on maybe is that panamian hard labor is non existent...in fact its part of the reason panama is such a great spot to work for salvadorean, guatemalans, costaricans etc...people flock to panama cause some careers cant be fulfilled by panamanians...
> 
> they are very lax and laid back...they can really enjoy life(think carnivals in the interior of the country)
> 
> having lived there for 2 years on and off I got to really know the people and culture...
> 
> and yes, lovely ladies too
> 
> its a shame but I have met many cruisiers who think this way...
> 
> like every place they go to they are supposed to owe something to "america" for some reason or other
> 
> I wont get political here and Ill end it with this
> 
> simply put leave the attitude(this goes for anyone from anywhere) when you start cruising...or go around or whatever...whats the point?
> 
> whats the point of always being right in an imperfect world too?
> 
> hardly worth it. Youll get dissapointed quick...
> 
> I dont mean to offend or anything here but having lived it with a crew who felt the need to lambast everyone below him all the time everywhere he cruised it got old and embarassing...and very TIRING
> 
> there are many cruisers out there like this...like they are very very UNHAPPY
> 
> while in paradise...its a sad sad sight to see
> 
> peace


The only thing I am angry about is being gouged. The price to float through is simply that--a gouge. It is the same as the guy selling a generator for ten times its worth after a storm when everyone is out of power. When you have no competition, a monopoly, and take advantage of your fellow human beings it is ethically wrong. 
The Panama Canal would not exist at all if not for the failed French attempt and then the actual American project. It is used primarily for commercial transport, world commerce; businesses that contribute most of its revenue. To gouge small boats from the country whose taxpayers built the damned thing in the first place is just wrong. This being the $500 thread, one would think other sailors would be concerned with this excessive price.


----------



## MikeOReilly

JonEisberg said:


> Several years ago I bought a discontinued aluminum Dahon, the equivalent of what is now their D8, I believe... It's a far cry from the sort of chintzy little Dahons one usually sees in West Marine. Retailed for about $600 at the time, I probably paid about half of that... turned out to be one of the better purchases I've made, I love the damn thing...


Thanks for the reference Jon. I'll take a look at the good Dahon's, not those West Marine specials.



smurphny said:


> I'm probably biased against those small wheeled bikes, having been into the sport of bike riding. I used to think nothing of pedaling 100 miles and don't really see how any real distance could be covered on those little wheels. Have never seen one of those folding bikes in a century ride I'm sure some of them must be of good quality but the ones I've seen in bike racks around marinas actually look fairly heavy. A good standard bike is very light, pick up with one finger light.


That's probably the difference smurphny. I'm certainly not at your level of riding, and would never be looking to ride 100 miles; perhaps 20 at the most


----------



## killarney_sailor

christian.hess said:


> its been approved...big news for us down here...


I think that there is a big difference between it being approved and being built. The cost is something like $40 billion and you know how accurate first estimates. There is a major theme in Chinese business that someone will come up with a grandiose scheme with a huge price tag (and no money) just to see if the thing attracts the interest of anyone who does have a whack of money. There were plans to build the world's tallest building by far in a provincial city of a million or so. The plans looked incredible but there was no financing involved. With this canal there would have to be a very good business model and I just don't see it. When we went through Panama I was surprised at how few ships were transiting. When you get out in the ocean you see how many ships (container ships and tankers) are way too big for Panama and even for the new locks. The route from Singapore to the tip of South Africa is like an interstate there are so many ships. My wife talked at length on the VHF to one of the deck officers on a Chinese tanker (I think they were both bored). It was a 300,000 tonner which seems pretty common. Crew of 20, they were going from the US to China but picked up a load of crude in Venezuela on the way by. Their next waypoint was 4500 miles away. These ships are making canals obsolete. The Northwest Passage just will add to this trend.


----------



## copacabana

smurphny said:


> The Panama Canal would not exist at all if not for the failed French attempt and then the actual American project. It is used primarily for commercial transport, world commerce; businesses that contribute most of its revenue. To gouge small boats from the country whose taxpayers built the damned thing in the first place is just wrong. This being the $500 thread, one would think other sailors would be concerned with this excessive price.


It wouldn't have been built if Panama hadn't leased the land as well. I think the US had a good term making money off the canal. Now it's Panama's turn. All things considered, the price of a canal transit doesn't seem too excessive and it's not like you go through the thing every day. It's a one-time cost in a circumnavigation.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Going through the Panama Canal is definitely going to be financially tough on us frugal cruisers, but given that it's a pretty rare event, I don't see it as major problem. I'll be transiting the Welland Canal this season. At $200 this going to take a bite out of my monthly budget, but I don't expect to be back for a long time (I hope ).


----------



## christian.hess

smurphny said:


> The only thing I am angry about is being gouged. The price to float through is simply that--a gouge. It is the same as the guy selling a generator for ten times its worth after a storm when everyone is out of power. When you have no competition, a monopoly, and take advantage of your fellow human beings it is ethically wrong.
> The Panama Canal would not exist at all if not for the failed French attempt and then the actual American project. It is used primarily for commercial transport, world commerce; businesses that contribute most of its revenue. To gouge small boats from the country whose taxpayers built the damned thing in the first place is just wrong. This being the $500 thread, one would think other sailors would be concerned with this excessive price.


ok then Im sorry thats what I understood from your comment

so are you proposing american "yachts" get a smaller tarif or fee to go across but the rest of the world no?

do the french get a failed 25% discount since they couldnt finish?

what do the chinese cruisers that actually built the canal get?

they should go for free right since their ancestors DIED building the canal right?

*there is a lot to read about the panama canal, a lot to learn*, the us gained billions from running the canal for years, is that business not appreciated then?

im confused, its like a business that is lended out...the canal is was a money machine so those who ran it made $$$$$$$$ after the loan expired it goes back to the "ORIGINAL OWNER"

losely termed here

think of it this way

sailboats and cruisers represent maybe 1 percent of boats going through the canal

when I asked the "captains" and advisors and those that worked there (in spanish btw) the 4 times I went through the response was the same, taking sailboats across is actually a nuissance to them as the $$$ dont come from us the cruisers even in big 100 footers, they come from the panamax and mega container chips that pay billions yearly to pass products through...so dealing with little cruisers is actually time consuming and $$$ lost...

why do you think its ethically wrong to charge cruisers this?

you want ethically wrong look at what most banks do to every day humans all obver the world!

*basically think of going through the canal as a privilege*(which has been the case for 100 years) cause we sure aint generating them the money you think you are being gouged for...

while yes its expensive in frugal cruising terms and represents 2 months relative to this thread, what does new standing rigging cost for a 35 footer these days, what does a liferaft cost what does navigational systems cost etc...etc...

do you complain to furuno your getting gouged for giving you radar?

should the brittish get a discount for inventing it?oooooooooooooh aaaaaaaaaah now we are talking gibberish

the fact is you get an advisor and an admeasurer and have to take line handlers and all because the system has been like that for ages, and is the same for big and small boats...

when we went across in 2002 or so...after all was said and done we paid $800

back then they electronically refunded the deposit now I hear they changed that rule to something else

still its around 1k-1500 for most middle of the road cruisers

not bad PRICEWISE versus going around the horn

or say trucking your boat from the carribean to the pacific or viceversa

I know cause way back when in 2000 we got many quotes to truck our little 28 footer on flat bed, from acajutla in el salvador straight up via the "dry" canal up to pt barrios in guatemala near rio dulce

no matter what we tried, even going to guatemala and dealing with their fees and customs and whatever

it was at least 3 times more expensive not to mention the possibility of physical damage to the boat

it was cheaper to sail to panama cross the canal and be in the carribean...yeah it took months but thats life!

peace


----------



## christian.hess

killarney_sailor said:


> I think that there is a big difference between it being approved and being built. The cost is something like $40 billion and you know how accurate first estimates. There is a major theme in Chinese business that someone will come up with a grandiose scheme with a huge price tag (and no money) just to see if the thing attracts the interest of anyone who does have a whack of money. There were plans to build the world's tallest building by far in a provincial city of a million or so. The plans looked incredible but there was no financing involved. With this canal there would have to be a very good business model and I just don't see it. When we went through Panama I was surprised at how few ships were transiting. When you get out in the ocean you see how many ships (container ships and tankers) are way too big for Panama and even for the new locks. The route from Singapore to the tip of South Africa is like an interstate there are so many ships. My wife talked at length on the VHF to one of the deck officers on a Chinese tanker (I think they were both bored). It was a 300,000 tonner which seems pretty common. Crew of 20, they were going from the US to China but picked up a load of crude in Venezuela on the way by. Their next waypoint was 4500 miles away. These ships are making canals obsolete. The Northwest Passage just will add to this trend.


yeah I agree...but one thing the chinese dont have an issue with is $$$ and intelligent people...so the last I heard here is that nicaragua gave them the full blast ahead green light

yeah it will probably be a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time in the making but hey, I for one think it would be awesome to have nearby...


----------



## killarney_sailor

There is a ton of money in China to be sure. The only question is whether the people behind this proposal are connected to enough of it to make it a go.

BTW, the original canal was supposed to go through Nicaragua. Terrific read about the whole thing here
The Path Between the Seas: The Creation of the Panama Canal, 1870-1914: David McCullough: 9780671244095: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51tx0GyGT0L


----------



## christian.hess

yup! cant remeber if I read that particular book, but I did a few others similar to it! great reads...


the original canal was meant to tie in san juan del norte and san juan del sur...through lake nicaragua or managua cant remember

then the whole dry canal was a thought between el salvador and honduras up in the north too...

lots of good read out there for sure


----------



## aeventyr60

MikeOReilly said:


> Going through the Panama Canal is definitely going to be financially tough on us frugal cruisers, but given that it's a pretty rare event, I don't see it as major problem. I'll be transiting the Welland Canal this season. At $200 this going to take a bite out of my monthly budget, but I don't expect to be back for a long time (I hope ).


You can pay for your Panama Canal transit by picking up a few backpacker's in Columbia and giving them a ride to Panama. I hear the going rate is between $400-500. This has been going on for years....


----------



## christian.hess

bingo! man dont give away the secrets!

you can make a lucrative amount of money boat size depending too hauling motorcyclits doing the famous tip of the americas ride from alaska down to tierra del fuego over the darien gap

boats leave from colon and go to the first "beach" in colombia drop off 2 or 3 motorcyclits who later ride onto the first customs check...you sail off to cartagena or wherever...

riders will easily pay you anywhere from 500-1000 because the short flight from panama to colmbia is still plagued by bribes, fees and riduculous amount of paperwork

there is a famous german guy on a 60 footer who has been living off if this for decades now

I can get the links if you like

the darien gap is still a huge issue for land travel

backpacker are happy to do a 3-5 day sail from the perlas to and from colombia...and there you have it panama canal for free! jajaja


----------



## aeventyr60

christian.hess said:


> bingo! man dont give away the secrets!
> 
> you can make a lucrative amount of money boat size depending too hauling motorcyclits doing the famous tip of the americas ride from alaska down to tierra del fuego over the darien gap
> 
> boats leave from colon and go to the first "beach" in colombia drop off 2 or 3 motorcyclits who later ride onto the first customs check...you sail off to cartagena or wherever...
> 
> riders will easily pay you anywhere from 500-1000 because the short flight from panama to colmbia is still plagued by bribes, fees and riduculous amount of paperwork
> 
> there is a famous german guy on a 60 footer who has been living off if this for decades now
> 
> I can get the links if you like
> 
> the darien gap is still a huge issue for land travel
> 
> backpacker are happy to do a 3-5 day sail from the perlas to and from colombia...and there you have it panama canal for free! jajaja


Grasshopper,

You remember all the lessons not taught by the SCCA journals too well. Speak softly of the details as the non believers will surely shoot you down.


----------



## christian.hess

here is just 1 link of many out there:

Colombia - Panama Sailing

I honestly thought hard over doing this...living in panama 6 months at a time then sail back to el salvador...then go back...dont know what the wife would think but I think it would be a nice way to love for a while.

some of them barely stop even during the rainy season


----------



## christian.hess

aeventyr60 said:


> Grasshopper,
> 
> You remember all the lessons not taught by the SCCA journals too well. Speak softly of the details as the non believers will surely shoot you down.


obi one...

you speak the truth

I shall stop! jajajaja

but sharing is the recipe for lifes happiness...so one must not be too selfish!


----------



## UnionPacific

smurphny said:


> This being the $500 thread, one would think other sailors would be concerned with this excessive price.


If panama was cheap, and easy, and the area around it was safer, I would like to transit. a reasonable price would be 100-200 USD you do not need line handlers, pilots or whatever. Its an overpriced PITA that I want nothing to do with. Much better adventure round the horn. So much to see.


----------



## aeventyr60

Grasshopper,

I'll share another recipe. On the west coast of Sumatra surfers from around the world come to pay homage to some killer surf. They pay upwards of $5000 USD for a week of waves. This part of Indonesia is remote and lacks supplies of booze. Enterprising voyagers stock up their boats with duty free libations in another close by country, sail to the surf spots and do a little trading. A $20 bottle of Johnny Walker Black goes for 100 bucks...


----------



## UnionPacific

smurphny said:


> I'm probably biased against those small wheeled bikes, having been into the sport of bike riding. I used to think nothing of pedaling 100 miles and don't really see how any real distance could be covered on those little wheels. Have never seen one of those folding bikes in a century ride I'm sure some of them must be of good quality but the ones I've seen in bike racks around marinas actually look fairly heavy. A good standard bike is very light, pick up with one finger light.


being an old school cyclist myself and having done centuries, no.
I have however done a century on a dual suspension mountain bike thou, fully loaded with camping gear  The tiny wheels are necessary for compact size, thou if I could have my bridgestone racing bike back on board I would in a heartbeat! I miss 130 PSI tires, I dont miss all the flats thou


----------



## christian.hess

you are so biased and unlearned my friend...so sad to see these types of attitudes...especially on here...this thread has been the one thing holding me onto sailnet

I say that honestly and objectively...for I see many likeminded cruisers and those aspriring to be on here...with like minded goals and ambitions, sharing many secrets, learnings, tips, successes and failures etc...

latelty though it has been bombarded with off topic subjects, political and even religous rants, combined with utter nonsense and ignorance and unknowleadgeable people spewing crap...

I hope this thread goes back to what it once was...

peace to all


----------



## aeventyr60

UnionPacific said:


> If panama was cheap, and easy, and the area around it was safer, I would like to transit. a reasonable price would be 100-200 USD you do not need line handlers, pilots or whatever. Its an overpriced PITA that I want nothing to do with. Much better adventure round the horn. So much to see.


Last week your sailing through the NW passage. This week it's the Horn. Do you have some dream drug we should all know about?


----------



## christian.hess

aeventyr60 said:


> Grasshopper,
> 
> I'll share another recipe. On the west coast of Sumatra surfers from around the world come to pay homage to some killer surf. They pay upwards of $5000 USD for a week of waves. This part of Indonesia is remote and lacks supplies of booze. Enterprising voyagers stock up their boats with duty free libations in another close by country, sail to the surf spots and do a little trading. A $20 bottle of Johnny Walker Black goes for 100 bucks...


hell yeah! I think I remember what you are talking about as my spanish friedns mentioned something to this tone when I met up with them in phuket...

but please lets stop! well get shot down OH NO!


----------



## christian.hess

aeventyr60 said:


> Last week your sailing through the NW passage. This week it's the Horn. Do you have some dream drug we should all know about?


yeah I want some...maybe it will make the pooey diapers dissapear!

AJAJJAAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA


----------



## aeventyr60

christian.hess said:


> hell yeah! I think I remember what you are talking about as my spanish friedns mentioned something to this tone when I met up with them in phuket...
> 
> but please lets stop! well get shot down OH NO!


Think we can make some money taking tourists out to look for that missing flight.....seems like everybody else has a good spot to look.


----------



## christian.hess

man...wonder what REALLY happened with that poor flight...

anywhoo

how bout meds, buy cheap sell for a profit? 

back to 500 a month though

peace


----------



## aeventyr60

christian.hess said:


> man...wonder what REALLY happened with that poor flight...
> 
> anywhoo
> 
> how bout meds, buy cheap sell for a profit?
> 
> back to 500 a month though
> 
> peace


Yes, those are really inexpensive. Most cruisers who have National Health programs in their home countries find it cheaper to go to Penang and have any medical services they need performed there. Most hospitals have a "Menu" of services with prices. Hip replacement 10K. Double by pass 12K. Prostrate removal 5K. Breast enhancement 2K...frontal lobotomy is free.


----------



## christian.hess

ziiing!

meds used to be cheap here...no longer...talk about monopolies

but dental, hospitalization, minor surgeries all that kind of stuff is cents here and very good

anywhoo


----------



## Bob142

I was in Nicaragua a month and a half ago...there was a building opposition to a canal with concern about what it would do to the big lake and the river... there is a case in the world court now because Nicaragua is saying that a road being built on the Costa Rica side is causing silt to get in the river...


----------



## christian.hess

you are correct sir

the fight between costa rica and nicaragua has been going on for a loooooooong time now!

how was nicaragua btw?

I love it, havent been there in a while though


----------



## MikeOReilly

aeventyr60 said:


> Last week your sailing through the NW passage. This week it's the Horn. Do you have some dream drug we should all know about?


Folks, can I suggest we all just stop responding to UP. If we stop playing with him, he'll take his ball and move on. He's either dangerously delusional, or trolling for entertainment (or perhaps both). Either way, it would best not to encourage him.

... He actually puts the truth into that other discussion about "absurd circumnavigation" threads.


----------



## smurphny

christian.hess said:


> still its around 1k-1500 for most middle of the road cruisers
> 
> not bad PRICEWISE versus going around the horn
> 
> or say trucking your boat from the carribean to the pacific or viceversa
> 
> peace


That's the point. They have sailors by the $%*s and are taking unfair advantage. Unlike equipment suppliers, they have no competition. They also have little to no development, engineering, or marketing costs but were simply given a *lucrative* asset. Actually a great thing for Panama but has not been so great for sailors. Canal Daily Operation - Panama Guide You are absolutely right about banks. They have been allowed to gouge people because they have a worldwide stranglehold on politicians and are equally as ethically deplorable.


----------



## christian.hess

murphy I guess we can agree to disagree...at least on the banks we agree for sure...

honestly it does hurt me to pay that much to go through the canal because im frugal and dont have gazillions in the bank

but it really doesnt in the WHOLE scheme of things because there are other sides to the story...like KS posted there are relly good books on the subject matter

not the least of which is how many countries and people from around the world died creating such a great feat of engineering...

I guess I can agree that the recent price hike wasnt called for...or the recent changes either but hey

lifs isnt perfect...

serioulsy aeventry got me thinking hard and long again about making some panama-colombia-panama trips again

they are charging $550 a pop for backpackers, this isnt even for motorcyclists with loads

basically its a simple easy as pie charter commute...couple of days in san blas, snorkel, Im a chef so food will be good(jejeje I think so at least would suck if it doesnt jajaja) and the trip can be benign most of the time...

I have 4 bunks...why not?

man!

I can see the pot of gold!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ps now what do I do with the wife and newborn?

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


----------



## christian.hess

smurphny said:


> That's the point. They have sailors by the $%*s and are taking unfair advantage. Unlike equipment suppliers, they have no competition. They also have little to no development, engineering, or marketing costs but were simply given a *lucrative* asset. Actually a great thing for Panama but has not been so great for sailors. Canal Daily Operation - Panama Guide You are absolutely right about banks. They have been allowed to gouge people because they have a worldwide stranglehold on politicians and are equally as ethically deplorable.


well they do have a lot of MAINTENANCE costs and its part of the reason for the new expansion upgrades among others...


----------



## smurphny

UnionPacific said:


> being an old school cyclist myself and having done centuries, no.
> I have however done a century on a dual suspension mountain bike thou, fully loaded with camping gear  The tiny wheels are necessary for compact size, thou if I could have my bridgestone racing bike back on board I would in a heartbeat! I miss 130 PSI tires, I dont miss all the flats thou


I use an old Specialized Hard Rock, a combination road/mb for the boat, it's relatively light, bulletproof and I don't worry too much about it getting stolen or banged up. A road bike would be way too fragile. I have a Cannondale road bike that wouldn't last very long on the boat and with the 120# skinny tires, can't really go off road at all. Would be pretty much useless. A full susp. mb is also somewhat impractical because, although fairly light, it's massive overkill for roads, even dirt roads. Have a Trek full susp. and it would be too large for the boat and also difficult to disassemble all the time. Best bike for a boat IMO is a good, basic combo ten speed with dependable Shimano parts, light wheels, light frame, a rear rack and storage bags.


----------



## MikeOReilly

I love this info about short-term shuttles as a way of picking up some cruising cash. Can we come up with a list of these opportunities? 

Please don't make me fish through all the SSCC Bulletins  -- I am a member .


----------



## mrhoneydew

Granted $1000 - $1200 is a lot of money for us frugal cruisers... but even the act of getting to play around the world on a sailboat is a luxury and a privilege. We don't HAVE to do it. This idea that because the Canal exists and based on, I don't know, distance? time to transit? whatever? it should only cost a couple of hundred dollars... is just a bit like a toddler throwing a tantrum IMHO. The Canal is there to generate revenue and aid in commerce. Period. Not as a means for people to freely traverse the world. If the price to transit were only $200 it would be clogged with hundreds or thousands of little boats getting in the way all year round. Part of the cost is a means of keeping down volume. That is most likely the reason for recent increases as more and more people start cruising. Well, that, and to help pay for the expansion for mega-freighters. I am not an economics major and even I can see that it makes more sense to use the Canal for large container ships. I don't like it, but it's the reality. Plus, each boat requires clearance and paperwork and inspection of some sort. Can you imagine the overhead hundreds and thousands of pleasure craft would generate? So it will be a choice I have to really consider if I want to pay the fee for transiting the Canal. But if I really want to make it to the Atlantic, I see $1200 as a small price versus either freezing my nuts off and/or possibly losing my boat going around the Horn. If I don't really like it... there is always the South Pacific. Might be good to see some of the islands before they are completely covered by water.


----------



## mrhoneydew

MikeOReilly said:


> I love this info about short-term shuttles as a way of picking up some cruising cash. Can we come up with a list of these opportunities?
> 
> Please don't make me fish through all the SSCC Bulletins  -- I am a member .


I like this idea too! I would never be able to transport a motorcycle on my boat... unless someone is doing the Pan-American Highway on a minibike... but shuttling 2-3 people across seems like a pretty good gig. And they would be fellow travelers with plenty of stories, so an opportunity to meet some pretty cool people too!

I am sure it is not the norm, but what about getting robbed/people not paying? How do people handle the financial transaction? As anything I am sure it involves some trust and instincts, I am just wondering how people make it work. Half wired to bank account up front, other half in cash upon arrival at destination?


----------



## UnionPacific

aeventyr60 said:


> Last week your sailing through the NW passage. This week it's the Horn. Do you have some dream drug we should all know about?


guess you should read our grand plan then  a westward circumnavigation with a stop on all 7 continents, 7 seas, then a trip thru the NW passage. .

your snarkiness is entertaining.


----------



## UnionPacific

mrhoneydew said:


> Granted $1000 - $1200 is a lot of money for us frugal cruisers... but even the act of getting to play around the world on a sailboat is a luxury and a privilege. We don't HAVE to do it. This idea that because the Canal exists and based on, I don't know, distance? time to transit? whatever? it should only cost a couple of hundred dollars... is just a bit like a toddler throwing a tantrum IMHO. The Canal is there to generate revenue and aid in commerce. Period. Not as a means for people to freely traverse the world. If the price to transit were only $200 it would be clogged with hundreds or thousands of little boats getting in the way all year round. Part of the cost is a means of keeping down volume. That is most likely the reason for recent increases as more and more people start cruising. Well, that, and to help pay for the expansion for mega-freighters. I am not an economics major and even I can see that it makes more sense to use the Canal for large container ships. I don't like it, but it's the reality. Plus, each boat requires clearance and paperwork and inspection of some sort. Can you imagine the overhead hundreds and thousands of pleasure craft would generate? So it will be a choice I have to really consider if I want to pay the fee for transiting the Canal. But if I really want to make it to the Atlantic, I see $1200 as a small price versus either freezing my nuts off and/or possibly losing my boat going around the Horn. If I don't really like it... there is always the South Pacific. Might be good to see some of the islands before they are completely covered by water.


I bet a pleasure canal would be easy to build along side the big ones. maybe a 60x200 lock? they would never do it thou.


----------



## tommays

There expanding the canal and it has not gone well at all by the billions factor


----------



## christian.hess

mrhoneydew said:


> I like this idea too! I would never be able to transport a motorcycle on my boat... unless someone is doing the Pan-American Highway on a minibike... but shuttling 2-3 people across seems like a pretty good gig. And they would be fellow travelers with plenty of stories, so an opportunity to meet some pretty cool people too!
> 
> I am sure it is not the norm, but what about getting robbed/people not paying? How do people handle the financial transaction? As anything I am sure it involves some trust and instincts, I am just wondering how people make it work. Half wired to bank account up front, other half in cash upon arrival at destination?


honeydoo look at the link I posted...most are based out of hostel on either side, basically they are the intermediary though I would likely be more happy dealing through crasigslist, sailing forums or my own little website I could promote...facebook would be a nother clear option

basically there are set dates they travel give or take a day for weather...you deposit as a backpacker or crew and if you do not show up you lose the money

kind of like a charter deposit guess...

there are many a styory on weird captains and crazy seasick crew so its not for everybody but honestly I think It would be a great way to make some cruising kity money

do that for a season while waiting to cross the canal, plus panama is the ideal place to buy provisions and fix the boat and get supplies sent in...

sounds good to me!


----------



## christian.hess

tommays said:


> There expanding the canal and it has not gone well at all by the billions factor


yup the spanish company grossly underquoted the costs and they got into a big hooplah about it...

all over the news down here


----------



## mrhoneydew

christian.hess said:


> honeydoo look at the link I posted...most are based out of hostel on either side, basically they are the intermediary though I would likely be more happy dealing through crasigslist, sailing forums or my own little website I could promote...facebook would be a nother clear option
> 
> basically there are set dates they travel give or take a day for weather...you deposit as a backpacker or crew and if you do not show up you lose the money
> 
> kind of like a charter deposit guess...
> 
> there are many a styory on weird captains and crazy seasick crew so its not for everybody but honestly I think It would be a great way to make some cruising kity money
> 
> do that for a season while waiting to cross the canal, plus panama is the ideal place to buy provisions and fix the boat and get supplies sent in...
> 
> sounds good to me!


I like it! What about any issues with not being an official charter captain/boat? First there are the authorities... but then what about licensed charter captains? They aren't going to like people cutting in on their business I suspect? Just curious. This is one of the most viable (and fun) ways I have seen to replenish the cruising kitty. I just would like to know what I would be in for in as many respects as possible. And... the best I can do is speculate and research. Seattle is a fair distance from Panama. Especially with a boat that isn't ready to sail yet. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## killarney_sailor

smurphny said:


> That's the point. They have sailors by the $%*s and are taking unfair advantage. Unlike equipment suppliers, they have no competition. They also have little to no development, engineering, or marketing costs but were simply given a *lucrative* asset. Actually a great thing for Panama but has not been so great for sailors. Canal Daily Operation - Panama Guide You are absolutely right about banks. They have been allowed to gouge people because they have a worldwide stranglehold on politicians and are equally as ethically deplorable.


Lets say that the cost (ball park) for a yacht is $1000 (it can be less if you do it all yourself). The record toll for a large cruise ship was $250,000 apparently. How much effort and inconvenience was caused by the yacht compared to the ship - certainly not in a ratio of 1:250. Let says it is more like 1/10. You could argue that sailboats actually are getting a pretty good bargain. About the only thing in the canal infrastructure you are not using are the donkey engines. There are lock operators, people who throw messengers lines to you and pull your lines to the dock wall. You are using a vast quantity of water. You have an 'admeasurer' come onboard to measure your boat (big boats don't).


----------



## smurphny

killarney_sailor said:


> Lets say that the cost (ball park) for a yacht is $1000 (it can be less if you do it all yourself). The record toll for a large cruise ship was $250,000 apparently. How much effort and inconvenience was caused by the yacht compared to the ship - certainly not in a ratio of 1:250. Let says it is more like 1/10. You could argue that sailboats actually are getting a pretty good bargain. About the only thing in the canal infrastructure you are not using are the donkey engines. There are lock operators, people who throw messengers lines to you and pull your lines to the dock wall. You are using a vast quantity of water. You have an 'admeasurer' come onboard to measure your boat (big boats don't).


I don't think the 250k or the 1k are any kind of bargain, quite the opposite. The NYS Canal system has 12 locks just in the Champlain section, possibly 36 people manning those locks plus office staff, moves water for a LOT more boats, some of them quite large at times, and does it for 15 bucks. There are no "admeasurers" They must be worth the extra $985.


----------



## JonEisberg

smurphny said:


> I don't think the 250k or the 1k are any kind of bargain, quite the opposite. The NYS Canal system has 12 locks just in the Champlain section, possibly 36 people manning those locks plus office staff, moves water for a LOT more boats, some of them quite large at times, and does it for 15 bucks. There are no "admeasurers" They must be worth the extra $985.


Sorry, any comparisons between the Panama Canal and the NYS Barge Canal are laughable... The cost of your permit for the Champlain Canal does not even REMOTELY reflect the true operating costs of the system... If it did, that $15 toll might be tens of thousands of dollars, instead...

Time to get real 

The NYS Canals are hemorrhaging money, and operating at a monumental loss annually, one that is only being offset by highway tolls on the NYS Thruway...



> According to a consultant's report,* the Thruway Authority spends an average of $80 million to $90 million each year on operating and construction costs for the 524-mile canal system.* A proposed 45 percent toll increase on large trucks is estimated to bring in the same amount - about $85 million annually.
> 
> *That far outpaces the $2 million in annual revenue brought in by the state's four canals*, which connect the Hudson River to Lake Erie, Lake Ontario, and the Finger Lakes.
> 
> Who should pay for the Erie Canal? | Democrat and Chronicle | democratandchronicle.com


----------



## mrhoneydew

smurphny said:


> I don't think the 250k or the 1k are any kind of bargain, quite the opposite. The NYS Canal system has 12 locks just in the Champlain section, possibly 36 people manning those locks plus office staff, moves water for a LOT more boats, some of them quite large at times, and does it for 15 bucks. There are no "admeasurers" They must be worth the extra $985.


Sooo... a canal is a canal is a canal? I think in the US and other countries with more developed infrastructure and economies we tend to take for granted the fact that other places don't have the same tax base. I am guessing the NYS Canal system doesn't operate solely on funds from people who transit through it. Neither does the Panama Canal... but the difference is it is one of few major things that can generate revenue for the country. Where I have an issue with it is if the funds are used to line the pockets of politicians and their cronies. But then, we have the same thing here in the good ol' USA. Our economy is just larger and enough people are able to participate to the point of being comfortable and complacent. But let's not get too political again. Bringing it back to the thread... Since $1200 would blow our theoretical $500/mo budget, we just have to plan for larger expenditures like this if we want to do it. Christian presented a pretty amazing way above to offset the cost. Or if you know that is the way you are going to travel, save up and set aside for that specific expenditure prior to cutting the lines. Not a bad idea to look at any other larger expenses like this and plan accordingly while you still have means to regularly add to the cruising kitty.


----------



## UnionPacific

JonEisberg said:


> Time to get real
> 
> The NYS Canals are hemorrhaging money, and operating at a monumental loss annually, one that is only being offset by highway tolls on the NYS Thruway...


true.



> If it did, that $15 might be tens of thousands of dollars, instead...


not so true. Unfortunately the unions run the canal. That being said the canal could do without lock operators. Its done in many parts of the world. realistically if they raised the 1 time transit cost to $100 they would be a lot more on track. they also need to can toll both workers. they are paid to collect money, hand out tickets? WHAT???? Yes, unions are killing it. and they have raised tolls again. Glad I stopped driving last year


----------



## christian.hess

yeah guys...you just compare...the canal even in its old self is a massive system and there is alot more going on than line handlers and a captain that does anything or not...

the maintenance done on the locks daily is worth the price they charge as it hemorrages water by the millions of galons...part of the reason they are doing the big refit...

hope it all goes well in the end

anywhoo

back to making money "chartering" dude you can go any way about it...

if people dont like you coming in to compete with them thats their problem not yours...

do a good job, be nice, be safe and smart and do a good job with paying customers and word of mouth will do the rest for you

most of these guys do it privately and arent part of any chartering company

its a big world out there so go for it!


----------



## UnionPacific

christian.hess said:


> yeah guys...you just compare...the canal even in its old self is a massive system and there is alot more going on than line handlers and a captain that does anything or not...
> 
> the maintenance done on the locks daily is worth the price they charge as it hemorrages water by the millions of galons...part of the reason they are doing the big refit...
> 
> hope it all goes well in the end
> 
> anywhoo
> 
> back to making money "chartering" dude you can go any way about it...
> 
> if people dont like you coming in to compete with them thats their problem not yours...
> 
> do a good job, be nice, be safe and smart and do a good job with paying customers and word of mouth will do the rest for you
> 
> most of these guys do it privately and arent part of any chartering company
> 
> its a big world out there so go for it!


So much for leaving a clean wake :laugher


----------



## smurphny

You don't get it. That's just the point! Governments are SUPPOSED to provide infrastructure and services for transport, not extort exorbitant fees. They are not supposed to generate huge profits (as the NYS Thruway seems to be trying to do now). Citizens pay for roadways, canals, airports, trains, sidewalks, plowing, sanding........etc. ad infinitum. It's what governments do; provide reasonably priced means of transport through building infrastructure. I don't get this almost religious mysticism about THE PANAMA CANAL. The water goes up. It goes down. Medieval engineering. The mysticism may just be people trying to justify the fact that they just paid an absolutely ridiculous price to float through 

Perhaps you didn't read the link I posted above about the Panamanian people becoming the richest per capita nation in Latin America due to the gift of the canal bestowed by America. They are making a large profit from the high fee.


----------



## christian.hess

killarney_sailor said:


> Lets say that the cost (ball park) for a yacht is $1000 (it can be less if you do it all yourself). The record toll for a large cruise ship was $250,000 apparently. How much effort and inconvenience was caused by the yacht compared to the ship - certainly not in a ratio of 1:250. Let says it is more like 1/10. You could argue that sailboats actually are getting a pretty good bargain. About the only thing in the canal infrastructure you are not using are the donkey engines. There are lock operators, people who throw messengers lines to you and pull your lines to the dock wall. You are using a vast quantity of water. You have an 'admeasurer' come onboard to measure your boat (big boats don't).


better said than what I was trying to say...basically this is the consensus,when I talked to a bunch of canal workers and the "captain" that eats a lunch and must have SHADE jajaja that we(small sailboats and cruisers are actually a bit of a nuissance when you get down to the nitty gritty since basically the same process, workers, admeasuerer, the actually little ferry that comes to your boat, the same amount of water, exept for the trains like you say are used when compared to a huge tanker...except we pay 1k and those guys pay hundreds of thousands

simple math if you want to think about it

basically its like using a freight train to go to the grocery store for veggies...versus say your bike

one is being grossly missused the other is practical

the panama canal was never DESIGNED for small boats...it wasnt built for that purpose

its pretty obvious to see when you are there

if you want to talk ideas for small boat panama canal crossings then a simple yard with a crane on each side of the canal tied into the rail train system that runs along side said canal would be the way to do that

you save time on the canal side and all you need is a cradle system and yard dedicated to do such crossings, it would also cut down on time, and you could dedicate the canal to those that use it for its intended purpose

to me that would make much more sense

even more than a dry canal by road like they are doing here in ur countries


----------



## christian.hess

UnionPacific said:


> So much for leaving a clean wake :laugher


what are you talking about?


----------



## christian.hess

smurphny said:


> You don't get it. That's just the point! Governments are SUPPOSED to provide infrastructure and services for transport, not extort exorbitant fees. They are not supposed to generate huge profits (as the NYS Thruway seems to be trying to do now). Citizens pay for roadways, canals, airports, trains, sidewalks, plowing, sanding........etc. ad infinitum. It's what governments do; provide reasonably priced means of transport through building infrastructure. I don't get this almost religious mysticism about THE PANAMA CANAL. The water goes up. It goes down. Medieval engineering. The mysticism may just be people trying to justify the fact that they just paid an absolutely ridiculous price to float through
> 
> Perhaps you didn't read the link I posted above about the Panamanian people becoming the richest per capita nation in Latin America due to the gift of the canal bestowed by America. They are making a large profit from the high fee.


murphy now your going about this wrong

its not panamanians that cross the canal is it? the panama canal is designed for the world to use

although less and less now as we speak

and what in hell does the panama canal have to due with per capita income?

now we are getting WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off course

panama has the biggest tourism in central america, the biggest financial district and countless trades and commerce that have made it so...not to mention rum, cubans, textiles, etc etc etc...

this just got wierd


----------



## killarney_sailor

Murph
Governments provide infrastructure for their own citizens. The Panama Canal, Suez Canal, the new Chinese canal if it happens are commercial ventures. They exist to make a profit for the country or the company that own them. The NYS Canal system exists today to provide a tourism boost to upstate NY. It is not a commercial venture. Are you suggesting that Panama run their canal on a break-even basis because they should be nice to the rest of world? This is the most important foreign currency earner they have. Apparently a quarter million is not too much for the cruise ship company to pay since they paid it. $1000 or whatever is not too much for yachts since few (any?) boats choose to avoid it. UP could be the first or nearly so I suspect.


----------



## mrhoneydew

smurphny said:


> You don't get it. That's just the point! Governments are SUPPOSED to provide infrastructure and services for transport, not extort exorbitant fees. They are not supposed to generate huge profits (as the NYS Thruway seems to be trying to do now). Citizens pay for roadways, canals, airports, trains, sidewalks, plowing, sanding........etc. ad infinitum. It's what governments do; provide reasonably priced means of transport through building infrastructure. I don't get this almost religious mysticism about THE PANAMA CANAL. The water goes up. It goes down. Medieval engineering. The mysticism may just be people trying to justify the fact that they just paid an absolutely ridiculous price to float through


I agree with you in that one of the functions of government is to develop and maintain infrastructure to facilitate the daily lives of their citizens. So how many Panamanians do you think transit the canal on a regular basis? The fact is Panama cannot and should not bare the brunt of costs just so the rest of the world can have massive amounts of consumer goods and not get any real benefit. But as Christian pointed out... the PC is a huge engineering feat and it was completed in 1914. Maintenance costs big money on such a huge system. Without a major tax base how else are they to maintain it? And even in all I have said on this topic I don't necessarily agree with the rates they charge. All I am saying is it is not a black and white issue. There might actually be reasons behind the fees. I can't assume they are doing it just to soak cruisers simply because they can.


----------



## mrhoneydew

killarney_sailor said:


> Murph
> Governments provide infrastructure for their own citizens. The Panama Canal, Suez Canal, the new Chinese canal if it happens are commercial ventures. They exist to make a profit for the country or the company that own them. The NYS Canal system exists today to provide a tourism boost to upstate NY. It is not a commercial venture. Are you suggesting that Panama run their canal on a break-even basis because they should be nice to the rest of world? This is the most important foreign currency earner they have. Apparently a quarter million is not too much for the cruise ship company to pay since they paid it. $1000 or whatever is not too much for yachts since few (any?) boats choose to avoid it. UP could be the first or nearly so I suspect.


LOL! This is the second time you have commented basically much of what I was typing and posted before me.


----------



## christian.hess

yeah man this just got wierd

I know of a couple panamanian cruisers, still they didnt use the canal...Im not understanding this reasoning at all

there is no mysticisim regarding the canal here, this is just the reality...I dont get at all why we cant see that being small boat cruisers that we are actually the ones who should be happy they let us even use it its has never been designed for us in the first place...

ive heard it countless times that we are the nuissance to the system...not the other way round...we dont make the panama canal or panama for that matter any profitable money when you really dig into it...

anyways back to sailing


----------



## aeventyr60

Given the alternative of rounding the horn, the canal fees are chump change. Hardly soaking the "poor" cruiser.


----------



## christian.hess

mrhoneydew said:


> LOL! This is the second time you have commented basically much of what I was typing and posted before me.


DITTO! jajajaja

seems we type in unison sometimes here



oh btw seems Im leaving a dirty wake by offering advice on charter commuting

oh no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## christian.hess

aeventyr60 said:


> Given the alternative of rounding the horn, the canal fees are chump change. Hardly soaking the "poor" cruiser.


to me it sounds like complaining you got a different flavoured candy than you wanted

now the panama canal is a nuissance and a money hogger whereas before anybody wanting to come to the americas pacific side, had to go down to the horn and up and do all that

are we going to say now that its cheaper and easier to go around the horn cause you think panama is shanking you out of your 1k?

this is beyond laughable guys

sounds to me like some are a bit ticked off that PANAMA know owns the PANAMA CANAL
so I wont ever pay their grossly overpriced fees...

get over it...


----------



## aeventyr60

MikeOReilly said:


> I love this info about short-term shuttles as a way of picking up some cruising cash. Can we come up with a list of these opportunities?
> 
> Please don't make me fish through all the SSCC Bulletins  -- I am a member .


'
Those secrets aren't going to be found in those journals...

Don't get me started on the opportunities, enough rescues happening as it is....which brings up another opportunity.


----------



## christian.hess

jajaja aeventry good to have you here

we need to setup a secret society of interesting business ventures for those with a wordly grasp on things...

now lets packs some booze and cigarettes and dirty magazines and go to the east and SELL EM!

yay! 

cruising money hell yeah


----------



## killarney_sailor

*Back to $500 per month*

If I may veer back to the topic for a moment. It has always been my perception that some people are thinking that cruising is like living on the land where you have a predictable set of income and expense with relatively few significant hiccups from the pattern, although they do happen.

if you are cruising in a restricted area, say the Florida Keys, you can fairly accurately predict the cost of things. If you are wandering from country to country it is not like that. Sometimes you are spending a bunch of money, other times not much at all. An example or three from our experience.

Load up the boat in Florida in prep for heading towards Panama and the Pacific. Food, fuel, any last minute boat preps cost what they do.
Pass through the Bahamas ($300) for a couple of weeks on the way to the Windward Passage. Ate out once and went to a bar twice if I remember correctly. $300 + ~$40
On passage to Panama for 10 days or whatever it was $0
In the San Blas for a month or so - entry $30; socializing $25
Went out for two fabulous dinners (Christmas and Boxing Day) - the latter might have been the best meal of my life - $150
Canal costs and more bureaucratic costs (no marina) - ~$1500
Taking advantage of the terrific provisioning opportunties in Panama City - $1000
To Ecuador, a week or so - free
On a mooring for six weeks, backpack in Ecuador and Peru for a month $!800
To Galapagos, stay there for the 20 days - all up including a tour of four islands for four nights - $1500
To Easter Island, Pitcairn, Gambier Islands and Tahiti - 50 days - $100

You get the idea. Sometimes you have no expenditures, some times a lot. It would have been a shame not to have had the money available in Panama City since things were so cheap. You have to eat and drink and after Ecuador nothing was cheap until we got to Indonesia.

Also, there is the question of emergencies. When I got my hand mangled in South Africa I was in a private hospital for 5 days including one significant surgery - $6000 (and you don't get in the door without flashing the credit card) and had to make an emergency trip back home for two more surgeries and months of therapy. Cost of a marina for 8 months in SA and two roundtrips from SA to Canada. We had the house here and government health insurance so that helped enormously. We lived relatively frugally (nothing like $500 a month) but we knew we had emergency funds if we needed them.


----------



## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> Unfortunately the unions run the canal. That being said the canal could do without lock operators.


Congrats, that has to be one of the sillier things I've read around here in quite some time...










You've obviously never experienced a flood on the Erie Canal, nor have a clue as to the extraordinary complexity of the operation and maintenance of the system...












UnionPacific said:


> I bet a pleasure canal would be easy to build along side the big ones. maybe a 60x200 lock? they would never do it thou.


It would be interesting to learn on which planet that might be economically viable...


----------



## christian.hess

Im going to follow mikes advice regarding this iluminated person and his posts


----------



## mrhoneydew

UnionPacific said:


> So much for leaving a clean wake :laugher





christian.hess said:


> what are you talking about?


I think he's making a comparison between his plan to skirt the Chilean Navy and go to Antarctica without checking in and the notion of operating what amounts to an illegal charter business in Panama. Am I right UP? He does have a point, actually. If I am planning to haul people between Panama and Colombia on the down low (I am), in essence I can't really fault him for going to Antarctica "illegally." One could argue that my venture wouldn't potentially needlessly endanger a Chilean naval vessel in a rescue mission should that need arise, but that isn't the point. If UP is going to be criticized for proposing to do something that isn't "on the level," then so should anybody planning to do anything outside of local authority.

As for Antarctica, I say go for it. Just realize you will likely be tracked on radar and, if caught, your vessel would be seized (whether you feel it is justified or not). But more power to you. If people are willing to be self-sufficient and take on the risks of an endeavor without bailing and calling for help... well, the entire world doesn't need to be policed 24/7.


----------



## christian.hess

hmmm I have no idea whats ilegal here...and never intended anyone to think that shuttling backpackers was so...plent of people do...

seem we have been shot down...man

aeaventry youre a psychic!


----------



## mrhoneydew

Are we seriously at 200 pages on this thread??? Wow, it seems like just yesterday we were just a little tyke of 50 pages running around talking about dehydrating food, refrigeration, etc. (Sigh.) They just grow up SO fast. (sniff)


----------



## UnionPacific

christian.hess said:


> to me it sounds like complaining you got a different flavoured candy than you wanted
> 
> now the panama canal is a nuissance and a money hogger whereas before anybody wanting to come to the americas pacific side, had to go down to the horn and up and do all that
> 
> are we going to say now that its cheaper and easier to go around the horn cause you think panama is shanking you out of your 1k?
> 
> this is beyond laughable guys
> 
> sounds to me like some are a bit ticked off that PANAMA know owns the PANAMA CANAL
> so I wont ever pay their grossly overpriced fees...
> 
> get over it...


you miss a lot of the world going thrru. HOWEVER if your only goal is getting from east to west, then take the canal.


----------



## killarney_sailor

christian.hess said:


> jajaja aeventry good to have you here
> 
> we need to setup a secret society of interesting business ventures for those with a wordly grasp on things...


What is the secret handshake going to be?


----------



## christian.hess

it must be via pm...Im open to ideas! jajaja

the code must be cruising related...


----------



## mrhoneydew

christian.hess said:


> hmmm I have no idea whats ilegal here...and never intended anyone to think that shuttling backpackers was so...plent of people do...
> 
> seem we have been shot down...man
> 
> aeaventry youre a psychic!


I guess I just assumed that whatever government would not take kindly to someone running a charter business, however small, without them getting some amount of tax revenue. Shuttling backpackers is one thing, but charging them for doing so is another story. I personally don't particularly care. I am more of an "ask forgiveness rather than permission" sort. And I'm real good at playing dumb.


----------



## UnionPacific

JonEisberg said:


> Congrats, that has to be one of the sillier things I've read around here in quite some time...


When you have lived within 10 miles of the canal system for 15 years then you may understand.

my personal video of the flood.




live on the canal like I have and you will learn it.
Learning comes from reading the words of those living what you want to know.


----------



## christian.hess

that would be something you could ask the actual captains about or panama for that matter...

its obvious people are doing it and for decades now...soooooooooooooo im pretty sure the legality of it is not in question its usually the getting there and doing it thats harder...

here is one interesting tidbit regarding panama and how it has flourished thanks to tourism

when I was there there was a government funded program that basically rented out little islands in the perlas archipielago to any foreign investor...it was something like 10 years for FREE...(the land) it had to be a business plan designed to creat jobs, local business and tourism

basically if you had 100k or whatever lying around you could do whatever you wanted down there make money and then after that time go on to your next venture...

on lease...

sound familiar? the end results are progress, tourism, investment, tax revenue, jobs, tourism related industry, art, etc...

if you dont think that is how countries make money smartly then I dont know what is

panama is eons ahead of other central american countries regarding tourism and its part of the reason they are so in boom

my cousin is currently living the dream there working for digicel...

thats another booming industry there, telecommunications

anywhoo

back to the secret society


----------



## christian.hess

UnionPacific said:


> When you have lived within 10 miles of the canal system for 15 years then you may understand.
> 
> my personal video of the flood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> live on the canal like I have and you will learn it.
> Learning comes from reading the words of those living what you want to know.


dude you need a MIRROR

asap


----------



## UnionPacific

christian.hess said:


> dude you need a MIRROR
> 
> asap


now who is incomprehensible?


----------



## christian.hess

you my friend are on a very privileged list starting 

NOW!


----------



## UnionPacific

good, I will not have the neanderthal responding to my intellectual posts


----------



## mrhoneydew

Now boys... am I going to have to separate you two...?


----------



## smurphny

Stats comparing the Champlain ($15) Canal with the Panama ($1000+)Canal. 

Panama locks: 1050' X 110' X 64' lift Troy Lock: 520' X 45' X 14' lift
Panama Canal: 85' lift 3 locks Champlain Canal 126' lift 12 locks

The Champlain Canal actually starts at the Whitehall lock. 

If we compare via cu' of water, a Panama lock is 22 times larger than a Champlain lock. So, instead of $15, the cost should be $330. Just kidding. 

I hear what you are saying about a commercial venture vs a state enterprise but my contention is that the PC should never have been allowed to be a completely for-profit operation when it was turned over. It, like many projects built by the public to benefit the public (of any and all nations) should be regulated to keep cost to a minimum and not allowed to operate like the highwaymen of the middle ages. I do think it is great that Panama is benefiting from this asset but believe the charges to ordinary sailors are excessive. It is an excessive amount for a lot of sailors to budget in on top of everything else. We're talking about that fictitious $500/mo, guy. 

By the way, I actually feel guilty about paying only $15 to use the NYS canals

And by the way, right about now there are probably more Maple Leaf flags on the Champlain Canal than Stars and Stripes. Does that qualify as "international?"


----------



## killarney_sailor

I have only done the Champlain Canal once when the Oswego/Erie were closed many years ago so my experience is further west. Same thing there, it was overwhelmingly maple left flags on the canal. If NYS were to close the canal (could happen) a lot of Canadian cruisers would have to go the long way - and pay $30 per lock on the St Lawrence.


----------



## UnionPacific

smurphny said:


> By the way, I actually feel guilty about paying only $15 to use the NYS canals


NYS thruway authority will accept donations. Blue and yellow paint of the correct tint is always helpful.


----------



## smurphny

killarney_sailor said:


> I have only done the Champlain Canal once when the Oswego/Erie were closed many years ago so my experience is further west. Same thing there, it was overwhelmingly maple left flags on the canal. If NYS were to close the canal (could happen) a lot of Canadian cruisers would have to go the long way - and pay $30 per lock on the St Lawrence.


A lot of the locks are in less than good shape too. There are some huge voids where concrete has fallen out. I've been through some of them that have malfunctioned, causing a wait until they got it working again. The financial impact on the lake businesses would be substantial if it were closed. Many sailors come to the lake in the summer from north (through the Richelieu/Chambly Canal) and south. There would undoubtedly be a big stink if they tried closing it. The maintenance has got to be expensive and it has somewhat fallen into disrepair along with the rest of NYS infrastructure.


----------



## smurphny

UnionPacific said:


> NYS thruway authority will accept donations. Blue and yellow paint of the correct tint is always helpful.


I found ways around using the Thruway many years ago. The car rates are really not too bad but I stopped taking the truck on the Thruway. The truck rates are crazy. Last year I actually made it back from the boat in Florida without paying a dime in tolls.


----------



## UnionPacific

smurphny said:


> I found ways around using the Thruway many years ago. The car rates are really not too bad but I stopped taking the truck on the Thruway. The truck rates are crazy. Last year I actually made it back from the boat in Florida without paying a dime in tolls.


I am talking about the canal branch, not the highway  another way to avoid it is to use the EZpass lanes, and ignore the letters they send. :laugher they don't come after you till about $20,000.


----------



## UnionPacific

smurphny said:


> A lot of the locks are in less than good shape too. There are some huge voids where concrete has fallen out. I've been through some of them that have malfunctioned, causing a wait until they got it working again. The financial impact on the lake businesses would be substantial if it were closed. Many sailors come to the lake in the summer from north (through the Richelieu/Chambly Canal) and south. There would undoubtedly be a big stink if they tried closing it. The maintenance has got to be expensive and it has somewhat fallen into disrepair along with the rest of NYS infrastructure.


Think of the losses of the marinas, million and millions gone from local businesses, and local taxes.


----------



## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> When you have lived within 10 miles of the canal system for 15 years then you may understand.
> 
> my personal video of the flood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> live on the canal like I have and you will learn it.
> Learning comes from reading the words of those living what you want to know.


One can only presume you've never actually transited the canal system...

Even the most half-witted among those who have done so, would appreciate how inadvisable it would be to allow recreational boaters who might be entering a lock for the first time ever, to be in control of the operation of something like the Waterford Flight...


----------



## UnionPacific

JonEisberg said:


> One can only presume you've never actually transited the canal system...
> 
> Even the most half-witted among those who have done so, would appreciate how inadvisable it would be to allow recreational boaters who might be entering a lock for the first time ever, to be in control of the operation of something like the Waterford Flight...


I have been from Hudson to lock 32, and to lock 8 Champlain. 
Its not complex. Europe locks are often times self serve.


----------



## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> I have been from Hudson to lock 32, and to lock 8 Champlain.
> Its not complex. Europe locks are often times self serve.


The critical distinction between the puny manually-operated locks on European waterways like the Nivernais, or the Canal du Midi...










...and a system such as the Erie Canal is obviously well beyond your ability to comprehend...






Not to mention, doing without those who maintain and repair the system in addition to operating it... yeah, that sounds like a fantastic idea... Just have the last boater thru the system in November turn the lights out behind him, that's the ticket...


----------



## UnionPacific

I said get rid of the lock keepers, not the maintenance crew. 
Larger, yes. Harder? no. open gate, close upstream valve, open downstream, open gate. Its really that easy. Maintenance will have to respond to any broken locks of course. A person cannot repair a lock. It will be slower, but it can be done.


----------



## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> I said get rid of the lock keepers, not the maintenance crew.
> Larger, yes. Harder? no. open gate, close upstream valve, open downstream, open gate. Its really that easy. Maintenance will have to respond to any broken locks of course. A person cannot repair a lock. It will be slower, but it can be done.


Hard to imagine that someone who lived in such proximity to the canal would not realize that the non-seasonal lock keepers _ARE_ the primary maintenance crews at their own locks, and within their respective districts...

yeah, the more I think about it, what a great idea, to have boaters whose prior experience with lock operation might amount to having once stayed in a Holiday Inn Express, have a go at tripping switches, and turning levers, on heavy machinery such as this...

Pics courtesy of The Travels of the trawler Tug 44 on the Erie Canal and New York Canal System
















































> This mechanically-driven cam follower unit at Erie Canal Lock E-16 is an example of early automation. A switch like this operates every traffic light on our roads today, but they do not look nearly as beautiful as this 90 year old unit!


Yeah, no need to _MAINTAIN_ this kind of equipment, just send a guy out whenever it goes tits up, right?


----------



## MikeOReilly

JonEisberg said:


> The critical distinction between the puny manually-operated locks on European waterways like the Nivernais, or the Canal du Midi...


Jon: Never Argue With An Idiot Quotes

... although you may have me in this category as well, given our recent exchanges.


----------



## UnionPacific

yes, they keep the canal system in original conditions if they can. the only real controls for the locks are the 5 levers in photo 2.
The maintenance they do themselves is mostly limited to paint. They also control the water levels, this could all be automated.


----------



## smurphny

Actually some pretty elaborate maintenance on those panels and gearbox. Someone has a lot of time on their hands to polish up those fuses


----------



## UnionPacific

smurphny said:


> Actually some pretty elaborate maintenance on those panels and gearbox. Someone has a lot of time on their hands to polish up those fuses


Its true. but it can all be replaced by electronics that require almost no maintenance. They only keep it that way for show, and history lessons.


----------



## ravinracin

Saving the world, post after post after post, and don't get in the way!


----------



## smurphny

UnionPacific said:


> I am talking about the canal branch, not the highway  another way to avoid it is to use the EZpass lanes, and ignore the letters they send. :laugher they don't come after you till about $20,000.


Ah, not true. I have first hand data on this. I went through the EZ Pass lane by mistake during a blinding snow storm and promptly received a bill in the mail for the entire length of the Thruway plus a penalty.


----------



## JonEisberg

smurphny said:


> Ah, not true. I have first hand data on this. I went through the EZ Pass lane by mistake during a blinding snow storm and promptly received a bill in the mail for the entire length of the Thruway plus a penalty.


Sorry, but I believe you may be mistaking an 'anecdote', for "data"...


----------



## Minnesail

There's a thing called the 



 in which unskilled people lack the skills to realize how little they know, and end up vastly overestimating their competence.

We all know guys like this. I worked with a guy who was objectively not smart. Numerous times I had to help him with the simplest math problems. We once took a first aid class together and the test at the end was basically a formality, most people got a 100% on it. He couldn't pass it without extensive "coaching" from the teacher.

But oh, he was an expert on everything. He'd tell you how intersections should be redesigned because that highway department is so dumb. He knew how they built the pyramids. If you mentioned a home project he'd launch into how you should do every step, even if it was not anything he'd ever done.

But the funniest was when I overheard him talking to a co-worker who had injured his back while hunting by falling out of his deer stand. Mr. Know-it-all started telling him how he should have twisted as he fell. The ****** even thinks he knows how to fall out of a tree better than anyone else!

I don't know why I bring this up. Carry on.


----------



## smurphny

JonEisberg said:


> Sorry, but I believe you may be mistaking an 'anecdote', for "data"...


It certainly is an anecdote and one piece of data, substantiated by the Thruway Authority database entitled "unfair fees levied." It was the first time I had been down the Thruway in years. The snow was drifted and blowing and I didn't even know there WAS such a thing as the Easy Pass lane from which there was no possible escape. I can't believe they were able to get a picture of my license plate in the conditions.


----------



## UnionPacific

smurphny said:


> Ah, not true. I have first hand data on this. I went through the EZ Pass lane by mistake during a blinding snow storm and promptly received a bill in the mail for the entire length of the Thruway plus a penalty.


then you promptly paid it? 
If not, they just send a new notice, and they stop after a while.
Of course they sent you a notice.


----------



## travlin-easy

UnionPacific said:


> then you promptly paid it?
> If not, they just send a new notice, and they stop after a while.
> Of course they sent you a notice.


Yep, when those notices stop, you then have a warrant put out for your arrest. Not a good day when you finally are apprehended, placed in a cell with someone named Bubba that thinks you look good and calls you darling. 

WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH SAILING ON $500 A MONTH?

Have a wonderful day,

Gary


----------



## JonEisberg

UnionPacific said:


> then you promptly paid it?
> If not, they just send a new notice, and they stop after a while.
> Of course they sent you a notice.


Well, I guess we know how some folks plan to cruise on $500/month... I'm probably gonna feel pretty stupid next time I clear into the Bahamas, and like some sucker I actually agree to pay the 'toll'...

Gives new meaning to the notion of 'Leaving a Clean Wake', I suppose...


----------



## UnionPacific

JonEisberg said:


> Well, I guess we know how some folks plan to cruise on $500/month... I'm probably gonna feel pretty stupid next time I clear into the Bahamas, and like some sucker I actually agree to pay the 'toll'...
> 
> Gives new meaning to the notion of 'Leaving a Clean Wake', I suppose...


"Leaving a clean wake" is like "blue water boat" It hardly has any clear definition. I could say my wake is clean because I do not dump trash overboard, you could say it means not fishing. With a blanket term meaning whatever we will it to, it could mean anything.

The check in fees for a country, and the thruway tolls are not related even remotely.


----------



## Don L

what an impressive thread hijack:laugher


----------



## MikeOReilly

Well, we almost made it to 2000 posts before going completely off the rails. I guess I'm out now. If this gets back to discussing frugal cruising, I'll try and return.


----------



## smurphny

To try to get it back on the subject, the $300 Bahamas cruising/fishing permit is a large expenditure for the $500/mo. crew. If staying for a few days, it's a major expense, but if staying for 3 months, it's not so bad. Unavoidable, fixed costs like this have to be added into the overall budget for cruising. There are some things like permits, insurance, towing service, registrations, etc. that can't be reduced. Keeping within the $500.00 mark seems to me to be virtually impossible without compromising essential budget items.


----------



## copacabana

UnionPacific said:


> "Leaving a clean wake" is like "blue water boat" It hardly has any clear definition. I could say my wake is clean because I do not dump trash overboard, you could say it means not fishing. With a blanket term meaning whatever we will it to, it could mean anything.
> 
> The check in fees for a country, and the thruway tolls are not related even remotely.


Part of "leaving a clean wake" is respecting the laws of the country you are visiting.


----------



## JonEisberg

MikeOReilly said:


> Well, we almost made it to 2000 posts before going completely off the rails. I guess I'm out now. If this gets back to discussing frugal cruising, I'll try and return.


Actually, I think the attitude he is displaying is highly relevant to cruising on a minimal budget...

Arriving as a transient at a marina after closing hours, and departing before the dockmaster shows up in morning, is one way some folks might attempt to 'stretch their budget', for example... I certainly think it's worthy of discussion whether such methods are worthy of endorsement by the wider community of cruising sailors...



UnionPacific said:


> "Leaving a clean wake" is like "blue water boat" It hardly has any clear definition. I could say my wake is clean because I do not dump trash overboard, you could say it means not fishing. With a blanket term meaning whatever we will it to, it could mean anything.
> 
> The check in fees for a country, and the thruway tolls are not related even remotely.


Your cluelessness never ceases to amaze:



> *Clean Wake
> 
> SSCA is a caring, supportive family of kindred spirits, ready to assist fellow cruisers when needed. We are individuals who share a unique way of life and celebrate international fellowship and goodwill. We aspire to the fulltime cruising lifestyle. We are independent and responsible people who pride ourselves on our self-reliance and conduct ourselves with integrity. We treat all people and our environment respectfully. We are ambassadors of a cruising fraternity and want to ensure that those following in our wake will be warmly welcomed.
> 
> It's this now famous "SSCA Clean Wake" policy, which has helped raise the reputation of today's sea-gypsies around the world, ensuring that the welcome mat will be out for all cruisers who following in the wake of a fellow SSCA member.*


----------



## MikeOReilly

JonEisberg said:


> Actually, I think the attitude he is displaying is highly relevant to cruising on a minimal budget...
> 
> Arriving as a transient at a marina after closing hours, and departing before the dockmaster shows up in morning, is one way some folks might attempt to 'stretch their budget', for example... I certainly think it's worthy of discussion whether such methods are worthy of endorsement by the wider community of cruising sailors...


How would you discuss this? How would you decide if it's worthy of endorsement? All this will do is lead us into a moralistic fight which ends in thread closure. Surely you know this. The reason this thread has been so successful (until now) is that the participants have had the wisdom to keep things focused on practicalities of frugal cruising. You're just taking UP's bait...



JonEisberg said:


> Your cluelessness never ceases to amaze:


Exactly. Stop playing his game.


----------



## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> Well, we almost made it to 2000 posts before going completely off the rails. I guess I'm out now. If this gets back to discussing frugal cruising, I'll try and return.


same here bud

take care


----------



## JonEisberg

MikeOReilly said:


> How would you discuss this? How would you decide if it's worthy of endorsement? All this will do is lead us into a moralistic fight which ends in thread closure. Surely you know this. The reason this thread has been so successful (until now) is that the participants have had the wisdom to keep things focused on practicalities of frugal cruising. You're just taking UP's bait...


Yeah, you're probably right... Better we simply ignore the more unseemly examples of some out there 'cruising' on a minimalist budget, and how their 'style' might ultimately affect those following in their wake 

DEADBEAT CRUISERS: Primadonna Leaves Oriental | Sailfeed


----------



## christian.hess

jon while I understand your point, what do you gain by looking at that picture? whats so wrong with that pic? other than it not being new and shiny? plenty of boats out there that look like this...I can take some pics for you some here right now...

again you are speaking from experiences close to you and that honestly doesnt reflect the whole out there cruising scenario

like you I disagree completely with how those french folks carried out their lifestyle and lack of social awareness if you will but it has nothing at all to do with cruising on 500 a month

beleive it or not citing examples like this in this thread would make any outsider think that what they do is what 500 a month cruisers do and it just isnt so

a few pages back I posted a link from latitude38 regarding some folks who have been doing it for decades, they were also commenting on the abslute bashing the kaufmans were getting from rebel heart since they also went ofshore sailing long distances with theirs infants and children all over the world

while a pic is worth a 1000 words...common sense can never be explained in a pic...

cheers


----------



## JonEisberg

christian.hess said:


> jon while I understand your point, what do you gain by looking at that picture? whats so wrong with that pic? other than it not being new and shiny? plenty of boats out there that look like this...I can take some pics for you some here right now...
> 
> again you are speaking from experiences close to you and that honestly doesnt reflect the whole out there cruising scenario
> 
> like you I disagree completely with how those french folks carried out their lifestyle and lack of social awareness if you will but it has nothing at all to do with cruising on 500 a month
> 
> beleive it or not citing examples like this in this thread would make any outsider think that what they do is what 500 a month cruisers do and it just isnt so
> 
> a few pages back I posted a link from latitude38 regarding some folks who have been doing it for decades, they were also commenting on the abslute bashing the kaufmans were getting from rebel heart since they also went ofshore sailing long distances with theirs infants and children all over the world
> 
> while a pic is worth a 1000 words...common sense can never be explained in a pic...
> 
> cheers


Well, the link I was posting was a bit more relevant to my point, than the pic itself...

Sure, I've seen plenty of similar boats out there, many of them being sailed by absolutely wonderful people, the polar opposites of the crew on PRIMADONNA... However, when a boat like that hangs out for awhile in a place like Lake Sylvia in Lauderdale, or Sunset Lake in Miami Beach, well... that's a driving force behind the sort of anchoring restrictions the rest of us will be forever battling in places like Florida, and to deny that unfortunate reality seems delusional, to me... I see no reason why a minimalist budget should preclude one from keeping a reasonably shipshape vessel, but perhaps that's just me...

Hell, when I go into Sunset Lake, I'm loathe to even drape a towel on the lifelines to dry, at least not before dark... 










But, yeah, enough of this "thread hijack" (sometimes referred to in other circles as 'conversation'  I've made my point, don't wish to have my knuckles rapped by the Thread Drift hall monitors  Time to return to noting the $300 cruising permit for the Bahamas, and the difficulty of fitting such unavoidable fixed costs like a Panama Canal transit into a $500/month budget, for 'voyagers' who might actually be going places...

A point I first touched upon 1907 posts ago, and which has been repeated dozens of times since... 

I like the way Bob Perry puts it:

_LIFE is a thread drift..._


----------



## mitiempo

There is recent news concerning Primadonna:
DEADBEAT CRUISERS: Primadonna Wrecked and Looted

Worth reading.


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## christian.hess

that last pic I passed many a time on my old h28, my grandfather lived on isle of venice, off las olas for 35 years or so in ft lauderdale...

despite being a raggy old boat, and all wood beleive it or not it still got plenty of looks and quickly got bought by a "snowbird" from up north

the point I was making was that people should be free to make their own decisions, and posting a pic of a "battered" boat with clothes drying is hardly a way to make your point is it?

for all intents and purposes that red boat looks better than motissiers joshua even when "new" or many cruisers out there right now...

has less rust for one! jajaja

the point IM making is that we often drift into subtopics that take away from the spirit of THIS thread

people STILL argue that voyaging on 500 month is impossible because they quote a panama canal transit fee

my answer like others here have frequently posted is cruising isnt x amount per day per month...

as are EXPENSES

arguing that going to a place or country for a day and paying a fee as ludicrous is well that

you dont go to costa rica for a day pay entrance and exit fees then hop onto panama and say

man this is damn expensive! I hate this!

no, you take your time, even might make some money doing odd jobs or whatnot

or what we were talking about (before some dufus came barging in here talking gibberish) like commuter chartering some backpackers to and from panama to colombia for some extra $$$ so the canal fee didnt seem so extravagant.

in any case...this thread cycles and has for a long time...most things have been covered but there are tidbits to always be learned...I know I have made my points known time and again since this thread started

so you are NOT alone jon in thinking this...

cheers


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## smurphny

So, can we get a list of unavoidable, fixed expenses to determine if the live-on-the-boat for $500/mo, $6k/yr. hypothesis is viable? I suspect, without turning sailing into tedious, bare subsistence, that it is simply NOT possible. I think the folks on this thread who have cruised long-term have indicated as such but it would be a valuable resource for those thinking about this to see the line items for a small, say 36' cruising sailboat.

Item 1: Haul, clean, paint bottom, launch yearly: DIY $500.00


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## UnionPacific

JonEisberg said:


> Your cluelessness never ceases to amaze:


I am not a member, so I do not subscribe to you definition.


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## UnionPacific

smurphny said:


> So, can we get a list of unavoidable, fixed expenses to determine if the live-on-the-boat for $500/mo, $6k/yr. hypothesis is viable? I suspect, without turning sailing into tedious, bare subsistence, that it is simply NOT possible. I think the folks on this thread who have cruised long-term have indicated as such but it would be a valuable resource for those thinking about this to see the line items for a small, say 36' cruising sailboat.
> 
> Item 1: Haul, clean, paint bottom, launch yearly: DIY $500.00


Why would you do this yearly? Most thick coats of bottom paint can go 3-7 years (dependent on water temp). 
Its simple, without living like a bum you cannot cruise on $500 a month x 12.
Boat maintenance will be at least $200 a month if you work in all the replacement parts. On top of that you have a fixed food cost 60-150PP depending how you eat, and where you are, then any government fees on top of that. $500 is a great goal, but unless your on a New Dana 24, highly unlikely. The truth is working, then cruising, then working is the best way to cruise IMO


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## christian.hess

mitiempo said:


> There is recent news concerning Primadonna:
> DEADBEAT CRUISERS: Primadonna Wrecked and Looted
> 
> Worth reading.


karma baby, as well as those on the cat...its a sad sad day when cruisers steal from other cruisers

in any case...thats the end of that story


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## mrhoneydew

I think, related to $500/mo, I have never assumed I could shove off with $6000 in a paper bag on January 1, cruise the world until December 31 and return with $0 on that day. As has been repeated many times in the long cycle if this thread, costs are fluid and fairly unpredictable. It seems the most useful information is identifying what major costs I need to be aware of either a) to set aside $ for, b) pull over and earn some extra $ before proceeding, or c) choose to avoid. A Panama Canal transit is a prime example. We can debate until we all have carpel tunnel from typing how fair or just or appalling the fees are, but the fact is it costs around $1000. So now am I going to do a, b, or c? For me this is an intended lifestyle, not a year-long vacation after which I will return, tie up, and let the boat sit in a marina somewhere neglected as 90% of the boats I see tend to be.

And it is a good point that keeping one's boat reasonably shipshape... which doesn't cost much $... even when on a tight budget makes a lot of sense. If harbor masters and officials view your boat as 'derelict' it can close a lot of doors and/or cause people to be less likely to want to work with you. The same goes for personal hygiene and appearance when clearing in/out of a country. Of course you CAN choose to keep your boat looking like hell and not bother showering or shaving as is your right, but if you are on a tight budget you really can't afford to have doors potentially closed either. You choose where you wish to stand on that issue and whatever point you want to make. 

NOW, since I have touched on boat and personal cleanliness... anybody have any cost saving ways to address those issues? I have tried a few homemade cleaners and they don't seem to work as well, but I am open to trying new ideas.


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## christian.hess

ill play again

I used joy both for washing myself and any diesel mishapps on the water...

JA!

cleanliness...nothing like joy to clean the funk!


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## christian.hess

for the boat? again joy...Im assuming you mean like rinsing off the decks and the sort right?

after a passage all we would do is go over the stanchions and stuff with a rag...if not wed be wasting A LOT OF FRESH WATER


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## christian.hess

I could add a couple of things

vinegar, cheap white vinegar is great for unsmelling things like drains, sinks, even wtare hoses without it being poisinous...

I always have bleach...if you get mold diluuted in water and its your best bet against mildew inside...

we always had ajax or clorox or any soap in powder...the powder is abrasive and can be used to quickly clean really bad surfaces versus say using INDUSTRIAL TYPE cleaners that are extremely expensive and cant be found everywhere

anywhoo


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## JonEisberg

mrhoneydew said:


> NOW, since I have touched on boat and personal cleanliness... anybody have any cost saving ways to address those issues? I have tried a few homemade cleaners and they don't seem to work as well, but I am open to trying new ideas.


White vinegar is perhaps your single best friend...

Incredibly useful aboard a boat - from removing saltwater spots on stainless after a passage, helping keep head hoses sweet, removing/inhibiting mildew, there's almost nothing it won't do... If I could only have one 'home brew' cleaner aboard, that would be it...

As far as general purpose spray cleaners go, the best bang for the buck might be the one found in the dollar stores, called "LA's Totally Awesome Cleaner"... Considerably cheaper than name brands like Fantastic or Spray Nine, but the stuff really works, and many people I know swear by it...

I have no idea how 'Green' it may or may not be, it's one of the few products that will remove diesel exhaust stains from a white transom, so all bets are off on that score... 










And, for stuff like waterline stains, no need to go with a more expensive gel such as FSR, any old toilet bowl cleaner should do the trick...


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## christian.hess

oh you can never have enough brushes! from small ones like toothbrushes to big deck brushes...

we used those hand nylon bristle brushes for everything...cleaning old wood, heavy stained tarps and whatnot, clothes etc...

thats about it on the cleaning front for me...

jejje


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## mrhoneydew

Great suggestions! But yeah... cleaning is kinda boring and basic. You either clean things or you don't.

What about items with multiple uses one might not think of? Or simple things you can make to make life a little easier for not much $?


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## Minnesail

I have had good luck using Bar Keepers Friend cleanser powder. It's a mild abrasive and a mild acid.

Over the weekend I mixed it with some water and dish detergent to make a foamy paste that I could scrub onto the hull and let it sit for a while so the acid could do it's work. It did a great job of getting algae off and scuff marks out.


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## mrhoneydew

Oh! I just remembered as I started my laundry... I read in "how to sail around the world," by Hal Roth that he and his wife would have a mesh bag large enough for things to move around tied to the transom. They put their laundry in and simply threw it over. After a couple of hours they would haul it in, wring it all out, and give it a fresh water rinse. No soap needed. I haven't tried it but definitely will. Great book, by the way. It inspired me to follow this path.


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## Tallswede

Great tips on cleaning supplies. I have some of these things on my little boat too. Do any of you know if there is a "All states" or Federal fishing license for the USA? I plan to do the Great Loop and don't want to have to buy a fishing license in each state I pass through. Sorry to get back on fees but this would be a great money saver.

Kevin


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## mrhoneydew

Good question Kevin. To my knowledge there is no single fishing license that covers the US. Each state issues their own. Might be worth some research to look at each state you plan to visit. Might not be worth fishing some places.


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## killarney_sailor

smurphny said:


> So, can we get a list of unavoidable, fixed expenses to determine if the live-on-the-boat for $500/mo, $6k/yr. hypothesis is viable? I suspect, without turning sailing into tedious, bare subsistence, that it is simply NOT possible. I think the folks on this thread who have cruised long-term have indicated as such but it would be a valuable resource for those thinking about this to see the line items for a small, say 36' cruising sailboat.
> 
> Item 1: Haul, clean, paint bottom, launch yearly: DIY $500.00


You don't have to do this every year, more like 2 to 3 years. No way you get seven years out of a bottom job. You will find that you need to scrub the bottom quite often so think about the best way to do it. I have a weight belt and snorkel and mast and use a 3M pad and/or a windshield ice scraper (got to use it for something ). It is quite east to get most of the bottom (we are 5' draft). I do it over a couple of days to get some exercise. Also figure out how to replace shaft zincs if you don't have tanks. I found with ours it is quite easy with two people. You need three hands for the two halves of the zinc plus an allen wrench (one with a proper handle makes it easier). You probably want to haul every few years just to check everything over.

I wonder if it might make more sense to make a list of expenses that are tied to a particular location. Then when you make a plan/schedule you will know when the budget will take a hit. For example, plan where you will spend cyclone season in the Western Pacific. Can you anchor out (Oz or NZ), it it is a marina how much? Then you know a particular fixed cost, not in terms of a date but in terms of a season. Also you will have extra expenses at this stage for two reasons - you have sailed across the Pacific and you are able to buy the stuff you need to fix things.

Some things you can't avoid like Panama charges or marina charges in South Africa (there are very few places you can anchor in most of the country). Marinas are not too expensive but there is no choice.

Final thing you can do is figure out major discretionary spending. In South Africa you want to go to Kruger NP or similar to see animals, how much will this be? We flew to NZ from Brisbane to explore for a few weeks. In Ecuador we went backpacking for a month. Did a Galapagos tour for four days, etc. Note that these are not essential but add greatly to the experience. Generally you are in a marina, especially if you are going somewhere for several weeks. In the Galapagos we left the boat at anchor (this was a considered risk). Winds were almost non-existent and the holding was good. A couple of days after our return the tsunami from Japan came right into the harbour (we were in deep water for that, but I wonder what would have happened if it hit when we were on another island).

Back to fixed costs, one possibility is insurance. Note that in many places you need to have insurance to get into a marina - you generally can get a temporary policy. In Oz, they wanted either $5 million or $10 million liability in most cases so North American/European policies are not big enough.


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## UnionPacific

how about off setting the costs?
Transporting goods to sell.
You bet it is going to be illegal in some way, some how.
Ignoring the local regs on it, what goods are worth a lot of money elseware, but not so much here?
EG
If I were going to the bahamas I may bring as much milk as I could keep cold and sell it for $2 a gallon more then it cost me. That is just one example, and almost not worth while.
I have read 22 cal ammo is popular a lot of places?


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## mrhoneydew

Further up in the thread we talked about not only selling things for cash but just the value of certain things for barter or trade or as gifts... that can help smooth over relations with people, get you access, spread good will, etc. cigarettes, small bottles of booze, cosmetics, t-shirts, candy. Luxuries we take for granted but aren't widely available everywhere. Ammo of any kind is an incredibly bad idea. Especially in substantial amounts. That is begging for your boat to be impounded and you being carted off to jail as a revolutionary or terrorist or something.


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## UnionPacific

mrhoneydew said:


> Further up in the thread we talked about not only selling things for cash but just the value of certain things for barter or trade or as gifts... that can help smooth over relations with people, get you access, spread good will, etc. cigarettes, small bottles of booze, cosmetics, t-shirts, candy. Luxuries we take for granted but aren't widely available everywhere. Ammo of any kind is an incredibly bad idea. Especially in substantial amounts. That is begging for your boat to be impounded and carted off to jail as a revolutionary or terrorist or something.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Has anyone had real experience selling this stuff?


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## Kostis

Ok i think i am going to start my own thread, in a better price. I think i will name it "Voyaging on $499.99 per month"


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## aeventyr60

UnionPacific said:


> Has anyone had real experience selling this stuff?


Selling no, bartering and trading yes. More for good will and having some unique experiences then anything. we usually end up giving stuff away. Good idea to stock up on all that small stuff, t-shirts, hats, cigs, fishing hooks, line and sinkers. Small bars of soap seemed to be a popular item. In the Philippines everybody wanted sugar. In a remote island off the Mexico coast the fishermen wanted sandwiches, anything other then eating more lobster for them.

Generally we have a "trading" bag that we will let the folks go through. A fish, some fruit and veggies are welcome for us.

Once in Borneo a sea gypsy lady asked for fishing hooks. We gave her about a dozen of varying size along with some line and sinkers. There were tears of joy in her eyes. Every morning for a week after there was a fresh fish on our deck...

In the Marquesas we were asked for .22 shells and 12 ga. shotgun shells. These guys are keen hunters and there is no doubt if we had some then we would have been well stocked with fresh food and local made carvings. How you go about this is at your own peril. These guys also had horses and were interested in line, leather goods and even a saddle!


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## travlin-easy

Many of the more popular anchorages and mooring fields have a cruiser's net that fires up daily, usually at 9 a.m., on VHF channel 68 using low power. They usually have a moderator, a person that sets the agenda for that morning's proceedings, and various categories. A good example of this was at Marathon Florida's Boot Key Harbor where they began the day with introductions, new arrivals, departures, buy-sell-trade-givaway, treasures from the bilge (for sale), announcements, special events, etc... The entire broadcast took about an hour and usually every boat in the harbor was tuned in, including all the local stores and marinas. Lots of neat things were sold, often at reasonable prices. Very few things were given away, but some small items were. Marathon was definitely not unique with this.

Gary


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## UnionPacific

travlineasy said:


> Many of the more popular anchorages and mooring fields have a cruiser's net that fires up daily, usually at 9 a.m., on VHF channel 16 using low power. They usually have a moderator, a person that sets the agenda for that morning's proceedings, and various categories. A good example of this was at Marathon Florida's Boot Key Harbor where they began the day with introductions, new arrivals, departures, buy-sell-trade-givaway, treasures from the bilge (for sale), announcements, special events, etc... The entire broadcast took about an hour and usually every boat in the harbor was tuned in, including all the local stores and marinas. Lots of neat things were sold, often at reasonable prices. Very few things were given away, but some small items were. Marathon was definitely not unique with this.
> 
> Gary


They had a cruisers net on channel 16? thats illegal in the USA. 16 is for emergency and hailing only.


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## UnionPacific

aeventyr60 said:


> Selling no, bartering and trading yes. More for good will and having some unique experiences then anything. we usually end up giving stuff away. Good idea to stock up on all that small stuff, t-shirts, hats, cigs, fishing hooks, line and sinkers. Small bars of soap seemed to be a popular item. In the Philippines everybody wanted sugar. In a remote island off the Mexico coast the fishermen wanted sandwiches, anything other then eating more lobster for them.
> 
> Generally we have a "trading" bag that we will let the folks go through. A fish, some fruit and veggies are welcome for us.
> 
> Once in Borneo a sea gypsy lady asked for fishing hooks. We gave her about a dozen of varying size along with some line and sinkers. There were tears of joy in her eyes. Every morning for a week after there was a fresh fish on our deck...
> 
> In the Marquesas we were asked for .22 shells and 12 ga. shotgun shells. These guys are keen hunters and there is no doubt if we had some then we would have been well stocked with fresh food and local made carvings. How you go about this is at your own peril. These guys also had horses and were interested in line, leather goods and even a saddle!


I had thought of doing some good will. ESOL is one I am actively looking into.
The .22 cal seems like a great idea to me. I think they may overlook a super small caliber like that. you can still get 500 for about $20 I think. 
Fishing hooks, line, weights also sound great. For people who rely on the ocean for food, how can you go wrong. I would trade them for fruit in a heartbeat!


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## travlin-easy

UnionPacific said:


> They had a cruisers net on channel 16? thats illegal in the USA. 16 is for emergency and hailing only.


You are correct, the notification was done on 16, the cruiser net was conducted on VHF channel 68. I changed the information on my original post as well.

Thanks,

Gary


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## UnionPacific

travlineasy said:


> You are correct, the notification was done on 16, the cruiser net was conducted on VHF channel 68. I changed the information on my original post as well.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Gary


Thanks for clearing that up 
All I could think was a guy on an albin 25, 14 miles offshore, on a handheld, shouting help help, and all the coast guard hears is "today's tides are the following"


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## ravinracin

Sell, barter, gift, It seems to me that if you are going to the South Pacific that you should take about 100# of t-shirts. How about Mexico and the Sea of Cortez. I know a lot of you have cruised there, or are cruising there, what works?


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## christian.hess

cigarettes and booze for the fishermen gets your lobster and the like

tshirts and kids stuff always works for fruits and veggies to the boat

little girly stuff like lipstick and mirrors and whatnot make great gifts as thankyous for whatever


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## christian.hess

thought you guys might appreciate this:
here is jack van ommen who lost his boat on mallorca after thousands and thousands of miles around the world

with very little to his name he has risen again like the fenix

Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude

its always good to see good people getting back on track...

btw, he is a frugal budget cruiser even though in his younger years he was quite the millionaire...

like all things in life change is the only constant

peace


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## mrhoneydew

Speaking of budget cruising... if you are thinking "my boat isn't big enough," or "it will be forever before I can afford a boat"... anybody hear of the crazy Russian who took off in a San Juan 24 from Washington bound for Hawaii? His name is Rimas Meleshyus. Yeah, well he got the boat for peanuts, did little work to it, and headed off. After a rigging failure he jury-rigged his jib and made it to Hawaii. After some time completing repairs in Hilo he headed back across and is in Sausalito, CA doing a bit more work and provisioning. He intends to take it around the world. I became friends with him on Facebook... pretty interesting guy. And his story begs the question: what's your excuse? 

http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/lectronicday.lasso?date=2014-04-09#.U3aGCqO9Kc0

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## JonEisberg

christian.hess said:


> thought you guys might appreciate this:
> here is jack van ommen who lost his boat on mallorca after thousands and thousands of miles around the world
> 
> with very little to his name he has risen again like the fenix
> 
> Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude
> 
> its always good to see good people getting back on track...
> 
> btw, he is a frugal budget cruiser even though in his younger years he was quite the millionaire...
> 
> like all things in life change is the only constant
> 
> peace


That's wonderful news... I had the pleasure of meeting Jack briefly in Annapolis years ago, what a gentleman... As a Dutchman, he's always been a big proponent of carrying a folding bike aboard even a boat as small as FLEETWOOD, he was using one to get all around Annapolis at the time...

The guy has always been one of my modern cruising heroes. There can't be many other people who have taken their boats to 2 of my favorite cities as far off the beaten path as Saigon, and Budapest... Amazing, some of the voyaging he's done...

Thanks for the update on Jack, as he was initially referenced in this thread a mere 1,805 posts ago... 

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1293426-post258.html


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## christian.hess

cool you met him! yeah I remember you posting about him...I also remember posting a thread when he became shipwrecked since he did so were my dad used to take us to vacation when we lived in spain


so I thought it fitting to do a recap on him and his "new" exactly the same fleetwood but BETTER built according to him

yeah he is definitely a modern cruising hero...I think thats a cool way to put it


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## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> thought you guys might appreciate this:
> here is jack van ommen who lost his boat on mallorca after thousands and thousands of miles around the world
> 
> with very little to his name he has risen again like the fenix
> 
> Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude


Great story, and great example of what is possible on a small income. Also great to see this thread is back on track. Thanks guys. I've missed it.

Other than the great story of overcoming adversity, two other things jumped out at me from the piece:

#1. I didn't know there was a Thunder Bay on Lake Ontario.
#2. How do I sign up for $1800/month in social security! Holy Crow!! There have been far too many months in my so called career when I didn't see any where near that amount of money. If I had a guaranteed $1800/month in income I'm be laughing.

As me ol' pappy used to say, "_If I had his money, I'd throw mine away_"


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## christian.hess

$1800 yeah

that would make me hop on the boat with the wife and baby RIGHT NOW...

kind of forced to cruise, RIGHT NOW

no questions asked

whats the saying go like? one mans trash is anothers fortune or something

anywhoo

back to this thread

any of you guys have some budget friendly ways on restoring your propane tanks?

any tips welcome

Im currently etching off the various extra layers of paint someone thought might help prevent against corrosion

of course the original paint is still nice and adhered most parts...except for the spots of rust everywhere

cheers


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## killarney_sailor

Christian, how old are the tanks and the valves? We found some countries were sticklers about refills if more than 10 years old. We have 2 - 20 lb aluminum tanks and will need to get new valves or whatever is required since they have slipped beyond ten years.


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## MikeOReilly

No wisdom here Christian, although this does raise the question about what kinds of tanks to go with. 

Question #1: Are aluminum the best option? Should I avoid steel? What about those fibreglass ones? I know there were some problems (or apparent problems) with one manufacturer. Are they any good? 

Question #2: Our setup is slightly more complicated b/c our primary tank is a large horizontal one that sits in a nice bracket on top of the cabin. I think it's a 30# tank which is rather long. I've never seen a replacement that has the same dimensions. Does anyone know a good seller of horizontal tanks?


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## travlin-easy

Why on earth would you want to restore an old propane tank? These things are dirt cheap, even the fiberglass ones. You can purchase a composite propane tank for under $70, and I've seen aluminum tanks for $25 at lots of locations.

Amazon.com: Ragasco Clear View 20lb Composite Propane Tank - Propane Tanks for your Gas Grills, Patio Heaters and more: Home [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51F2xNSAeRL

Gary


----------



## christian.hess

killarney_sailor said:


> Christian, how old are the tanks and the valves? We found some countries were sticklers about refills if more than 10 years old. We have 2 - 20 lb aluminum tanks and will need to get new valves or whatever is required since they have slipped beyond ten years.


tank is mexican made...looks quite decent compared to some I have seen, honestly I dont know that Ill be cruising anywehere soon that Ill have to deal with them not wanting to refill

I just wanted to touch it up again and make it look nice jajaja

im really getting the itch though

its been 8 years since I have been "out there"


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## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> No wisdom here Christian, although this does raise the question about what kinds of tanks to go with.
> 
> Question #1: Are aluminum the best option? Should I avoid steel? What about those fibreglass ones? I know there were some problems (or apparent problems) with one manufacturer. Are they any good?
> 
> Question #2: Our setup is slightly more complicated b/c our primary tank is a large horizontal one that sits in a nice bracket on top of the cabin. I think it's a 30# tank which is rather long. I've never seen a replacement that has the same dimensions. Does anyone know a good seller of horizontal tanks?


DO NOT GET THE GLASS ones...yet...wait a bit till they get he issues resolved for sure youll have more problems getting those refilled(add to that the fact that some were recalled) than my measly "steel" one

it feels like a galvanised tank btw cause the rust is blotchy...

galvanised tanks are common in some countries

aluminum is out of the question for me down here...


----------



## killarney_sailor

Mike if you can get the right size and afford the extra cost, the aluminum tanks are very nice.


----------



## christian.hess

travlineasy said:


> Why on earth would you want to restore an old propane tank? These things are dirt cheap, even the fiberglass ones. You can purchase a composite propane tank for under $70, and I've seen aluminum tanks for $25 at lots of locations.
> 
> Amazon.com: Ragasco Clear View 20lb Composite Propane Tank - Propane Tanks for your Gas Grills, Patio Heaters and more: Home Improvement
> 
> Gary


restore as in PAINT gary...you paint old steel cars dont you?

its not that its old and doesnt work...its that the po brushed on some "protective" coating and that looks like crap now

oh btw...you cant just buy everything down here like you can up in the states or wherever

its not always as easy as dont risk it, buy this

we live on propane here and im very familiar as all salvadoreans and other central americans with propane tanks and how they work...why throw money away when I have a perfectly functioning tank as is?

just a cosmetic touchup if you will

Ill aslo be making a small cover for it so its a bit more protected...not needed but just feel like it

probably canvas covers since I found a cheap version of sumbrella called oxford here...at about 2 bucks the yard..


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## mrhoneydew

Can you get any kind of paint with a rust inhibitor in it? Here we have Rustoleum. If you sand the rust spots down to bare metal, prime the tanks with rust barrier primer, and then paint them with several coats... that's about the best you will likely get without having them media blasted and powder-coated. Which might not be available or cost effective.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## christian.hess

mrhoneydew said:


> Can you get any kind of paint with a rust inhibitor in it? Here we have Rustoleum. If you sand the rust spots down to bare metal, prime the tanks with rust barrier primer, and then paint them with several coats... that's about the best you will likely get without having them media blasted and powder-coated. Which might not be available or cost effective.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yeah I got an ace paint that inhibits rust its not one of those converter paints though...I wanted to keep the project cheap, I used a dual etch liquid that I had left over from a motorcycle project that kind of converts the rust spots into a black powder and then becomes hard...

I was planning to then just prime the whole shebang and paint over with the ace paint

I was just wondering if any of you guys had done this to your tanks

rv guys do it all the time on their old campers btw...since they want to keep the restoration original

I saw a really well done 2 tank combo for one of those aero campers that looked awesome

anywhoo

just wanted to get this thread back on track..what better way than being frugal? jajajaja

peace dudes


----------



## aeventyr60

I wire brushed the old flaky paint off, primered in grey and just used some white spray paint. Tanks come up from time to time on the "Treasure of the bilge" notices. I have a spare tank with a sunbrella cover as well. My BBQ has a dedicated propane tank made out of aluminum. This small tank has fared well outside, with a small sunbrella cover for the valve assembly.
The Australians were sticklers for tank integrity and I believe there was actually a inspection sticker required for refills.


----------



## MikeOReilly

killarney_sailor said:


> Mike if you can get the right size and afford the extra cost, the aluminum tanks are very nice.


Thanks KS/Christian. How do you travellers manage the differing valve standards found around the world? Can you change out valves on the tanks? Do you buy local ones?

I also understand you can transfer the contents from one propane tank to another via a gravity feed. I might have to do this b/c our main tank is a horizontal one, and much harder to find a replacement for. I can see buying a local tank and doing a transfer once on board. Anyone do this?


----------



## aeventyr60

MikeOReilly said:


> Thanks KS/Christian. How do you travellers manage the differing valve standards found around the world? Can you change out valves on the tanks? Do you buy local ones?
> 
> I also understand you can transfer the contents from one propane tank to another via a gravity feed. I might have to do this b/c our main tank is a horizontal one, and much harder to find a replacement for. I can see buying a local tank and doing a transfer once on board. Anyone do this?


We buy a 14 Kg. tank for about $9 bucks,(deposit for the tank is $15) take it to the boat and decant the contents into our tanks via gravity. The valve for the Malaysian tanks is purchased at the local hardware store. Get a spare male connector for your tank and a length of hose. Then it's just a matter of buying the local fitting. A 20 lb tank lasts us about 2 months.

In many places you can take your tank to the local gas place for a refill.


----------



## christian.hess

aeventyr60 said:


> I wire brushed the old flaky paint off, primered in grey and just used some white spray paint. Tanks come up from time to time on the "Treasure of the bilge" notices. I have a spare tank with a sunbrella cover as well. My BBQ has a dedicated propane tank made out of aluminum. This small tank has fared well outside, with a small sunbrella cover for the valve assembly.
> The Australians were sticklers for tank integrity and I believe there was actually a inspection sticker required for refills.


figured it was either australia or new zealand that would be the sticklers...makes sense since they are sticklers for a bunch of other things too! jejeje

hey good news that dual etch stuff worked real well...all the rust is gone...and its nice and hard surface so Ill just get a cheap primer after lightly sanding and then do my top coats with the ace rust paint

feel good about it

Ill post some pics later on

thanks bud


----------



## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> Thanks KS/Christian. How do you travellers manage the differing valve standards found around the world? Can you change out valves on the tanks? Do you buy local ones?
> 
> I also understand you can transfer the contents from one propane tank to another via a gravity feed. I might have to do this b/c our main tank is a horizontal one, and much harder to find a replacement for. I can see buying a local tank and doing a transfer once on board. Anyone do this?


my current tank has the thread on round attachment

all tanks can change valves btw...at least the ones i have dealt with

buying a fe valves up in the states and having them as spares will let you cannibalise tanks or use a "local" one, paint it and do the valve switch

thinking about it, its probably exactly what the po did since he had the boat in mexico for a while

they also sell valve adapters converters...letting you take said converter into the propane refillers if they cant refill with your current valve setup

although most big propane guys can refill practically any valve system

I did this for some fellow cruisers down here some years ago

I would take the tanks up to san salvador on my dualsport bike...strap them down, then have them refilled by the pound at tropigas in the city then take them back down to their boats for a small fee

jajaja

it was just an excuse to ride the bike really and have some fried fish by the beach


----------



## aeventyr60

christian.hess said:


> figured it was either australia or new zealand that would be the sticklers...makes sense since they are sticklers for a bunch of other things too! jejeje
> 
> hey good news that dual etch stuff worked real well...all the rust is gone...and its nice and hard surface so Ill just get a cheap primer after lightly sanding and then do my top coats with the ace rust paint
> 
> feel good about it
> 
> Ill post some pics later on
> 
> thanks bud


Funny enough but in the Philippines they wouldn't fill my motley looking tank....

Also when I took the small BBQ tank in to get it filled in Thailand a few months ago they wouldn't let me pay, said it was to little of an amount to be worried about. The phrase is "mai Pen rai" No problemo....


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## christian.hess

aeventyr60 said:


> We buy a 14 Kg. tank for about $9 bucks,(deposit for the tank is $15) take it to the boat and decant the contents into our tanks via gravity. The valve for the Malaysian tanks is purchased at the local hardware store. Get a spare male connector for your tank and a length of hose. Then it's just a matter of buying the local fitting. A 20 lb tank lasts us about 2 months.
> 
> In many places you can take your tank to the local gas place for a refill.


yup just depends where you are at...

we almost always just took off the tank...


----------



## christian.hess

aeventyr60 said:


> Funny enough but in the Philippines they wouldn't fill my motley looking tank....
> 
> Also when I took the small BBQ tank in to get it filled in Thailand a few months ago they wouldn't let me pay, said it was to little of an amount to be worried about. The phrase is "mai Pen rai" No problemo....


jajaja

I loved thailand...what a place...all I remember is KA PON KAAAAAAAAAAAA

kidding...

almost got my ass kicked by some thai kickboxing looking fellow when a scooter rental I used got a jammed throttle and I managaed to "nick" his rear view mirror at a gas station...

man I could of sworn I was going to be moi thaid to death! jajajajajaa

really good street food too! 
anywhoo


----------



## Bob142

In Canada there is a ten year rule...The tanks are stamped with a date of manufacture or valve replacement...No stamp no fill... Our insurance industry at work...Valve replacement is slightly cheaper then a new tank and only requires a visual inspection by the worker changing the valve...One current tank with stamp plus gravity and you get to decide the risk factor... a little extra heat one the upper tank aids the transfer...


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## killarney_sailor

We read the books and took a male fitting and hose with us so we could decant. Never had to as it turned out. This route might be a bit cheaper because you could buy your gas from where the locals get it rather than through yacht-focused services which we used in some places. Most often we went to the local gas supply place though. One thing to be aware of, these are often not close to harbours and anchorages. We often would rent a car for major provisioning and/or sightseeing and would find the gas place then. We got gas in Grenada (YR) Antigua (YR - yacht route), Florida L - (local), Galapagos (YR - you have to have an agent there, he got the gas for us), Tahiti (YR), American Samoa, Brisbane (local), Darwin (YR), South Africa (2x - both local). Antigua was funny - a local agent that mainly dealt with mega-yachts had a gas run. There were probably 25 bottles and least 20 different sizes and shapes.

As for US-style fittings it just depends but the jungle telegraph works well for spreading the word about where to go. In Cape Town we went to a big gas supply place and they could not help us. They referred us to an old-fashioned hardware store in a working class, Malay suburb. They had an adaptor. I can't imagine they got much boat trade there. i sent a reference to Noonsite for them.

If I can thread drift a little, not many cruisers go to American Samoa and I don't understand why not. The island and culture are interesting and it is a great supply point. You can order from American sources and get USPS delivery (it comes on Friday). It is even cheaper for boaters than locals since the latter have to pay a sales tax on everything that comes in. When I ordered stuff from Defender and said I was in American Samoa she said, "And the shipping address would be General Delivery, Pago, Pago and said the zip code. the harbour is incredible and you can see why it was so important in WWII. Holding is not good because they had a tsunami several years ago and swept basically everything from a low-lying area into the water. First two times be tried to hook we came up with a folding lawn chair and an unidentified hunk of plastic. I boat with an anchor I won't identify except to say it was British and had three letters in the name tried more than 20 times before giving up and taking a mooring. Useless, but interesting fact. If you are Samoan your chance of playing in the NFL is 50x greater than if you are not Samoan. The people are big and the men often wear skirts (I am sure there is a proper name for them). What do you call some guy who is 6'3". 230 lbs of muscle with a long, navy skirt on? "Sir."


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## christian.hess

good info bud

back when we were in the south pacific american samoa just had a bad reputation for whatever thats worth, same for micronesia, forget the harbor that had a bad reputation, anywhoo... most boats didnt stop there...

but everywhere I read, now, especially on latitude it gets great reviews for the reasons you mentioned

its also a decent place for americans to get some sort of low $$ job, whatever that may be...

compared to other places for obvious reasons...

ps regarding propane x2, propane wherever we would go(as we never used a marine service) was always a taxi or bus ride away...usually in the industrial part of town if it had one...

I can almost say the same for diesel...just because most fuel being sold near shore was anywhere from 25 to 100% more expensive than in town...


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## killarney_sailor

The labour situation in American Samoa was fascinating. There are jobs that pay US-like salaries mainly government things of one sort of another. Locals go for those if they can. there used to be two very large tuna plants going multiple shifts and paying something like $4/hr. The federal government in its wisdom decided that all US territories should pay US minimum wage ($7.25?). One plant closed and the other went to one shift with 3/4 of the workers losing their jobs. Most of the workers were brought in from Samoa and Fiji and they just went home meaning they were not there to spend money.

Meanwhile most of the ordinary jobs (taxis, working in the two MacDonalds, etc) are still done by Samoans (note, not American Samoa Samoans). We had a cab driver say how good the pay was there compared to Samoa. The locals do not take any of these jobs and rely on various forms of pogey of which there seems to be lots (where are the right-wingers - here is a cause they could go after). All of the stores are run by Chinese and Koreans. My wife got to know a Chinese shopkeeper and she said that agents in China were getting people to migrate to AS by telling them it was part of the United States. One of this woman's friends got off the plane and asked how far they were from San Francisco since she had friends there. BTW, it is not a backdoor to the US. Residency in AS makes you a US resident but you cannot apply for citizenship and can't move to the US.

Final wrinkle about this interesting place. AS and Samoa are less than 100 miles apart but have different days. They used to be the same day until several years ago when Samoa decided they wanted to have the same day as New Zealand so they moved the Dateline over.

Back on topic, Americans would be eligible to live there but would not find jobs that pay very well I imagine. As the labour market changes more (or fewer) people come from Samoa to work.


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## desert rat

In the army I worked with several somoans. Used to be head hunters. Marvelous people.


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## christian.hess

killarney_sailor said:


> The labour situation in American Samoa was fascinating. There are jobs that pay US-like salaries mainly government things of one sort of another. Locals go for those if they can. there used to be two very large tuna plants going multiple shifts and paying something like $4/hr. The federal government in its wisdom decided that all US territories should pay US minimum wage ($7.25?). One plant closed and the other went to one shift with 3/4 of the workers losing their jobs. Most of the workers were brought in from Samoa and Fiji and they just went home meaning they were not there to spend money.
> 
> Meanwhile most of the ordinary jobs (taxis, working in the two MacDonalds, etc) are still done by Samoans (note, not American Samoa Samoans). We had a cab driver say how good the pay was there compared to Samoa. The locals do not take any of these jobs and rely on various forms of pogey of which there seems to be lots (where are the right-wingers - here is a cause they could go after). All of the stores are run by Chinese and Koreans. My wife got to know a Chinese shopkeeper and she said that agents in China were getting people to migrate to AS by telling them it was part of the United States. One of this woman's friends got off the plane and asked how far they were from San Francisco since she had friends there. BTW, it is not a backdoor to the US. Residency in AS makes you a US resident but you cannot apply for citizenship and can't move to the US.
> 
> Final wrinkle about this interesting place. AS and Samoa are less than 100 miles apart but have different days. They used to be the same day until several years ago when Samoa decided they wanted to have the same day as New Zealand so they moved the Dateline over.
> 
> Back on topic, Americans would be eligible to live there but would not find jobs that pay very well I imagine. As the labour market changes more (or fewer) people come from Samoa to work.


what about teaching...thats what the latitude articles often mentioned...

one guys was teaching something while the wife took care of the boat...it was like a 6 month stint...

not bad I guess


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## christian.hess

this thread needs pics! jajaja

before:


after:


not a pro job by any means but Im happier its this way versus how it was before

$8 in primer and paint aint bad either! jajaja


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## killarney_sailor

Looks good.


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## killarney_sailor

christian.hess said:


> what about teaching...thats what the latitude articles often mentioned...
> 
> one guys was teaching something while the wife took care of the boat...it was like a 6 month stint...
> 
> not bad I guess


American Samoa did seem to have a lot of kids. I would certainly try to get a teaching job arranged long before arriving on the island. There were public schools and quite a few private, mainly religious, schools. I have no idea how demanding they might be about having teaching credentials. I would think that they probably would be required. What I noticed in my travels is that all of these developing countries are graduating a lot of kids from their colleges and universities and the number of jobs requiring this level of education is small. Hence, I would guess that teaching jobs may be prized (and taken).


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## christian.hess

yup thats what latitude concluded too...

I wish I could link or find that article...anyways


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## christian.hess

another budget pic



had a main sail cover made for $75! not bad I think...will test fit tomorrow hopefully...the fabric was only $2 a yard...and its called oxford...it water resistant like sumbrella but not $32 bucks a yard! they also had generic sumbrella for $9 a yard but that would still be too expensive for what Im looking for

maybe for cockpit cushions...

I have a bunch of fabric leftover so Ill be making a propane cover, winch covers as well as my outboards cowling covers

cheers


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## LilBabyPenguin

Hello everyone, I have been reading every post in this thread, and have enjoyed it thoroughly. The one question I can't seem to wrap my mind around is all the port fees. Now I know not everywhere is $300, like the Bahamas, but in general it seems not so cheap! Do sailors have preferred islands that aren't as pricey, or are there some so inexpensive that it just comes out in the wash? Sorry if my question seems ignorant, I am trying to learn! I did find noonsite.com, which has helped me research this.


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## aeventyr60

Penguin,

It does all seem to come out in the wash if you are out long term. Yes there are inexpensive places to cruise with little or no port fees, cruising permits, visa, or other charges. One thing though, those spots that charge the higher fees usually have some pretty incredible cruising grounds. Not sure you'd want to miss the Bahamas for 300 bucks, or the Galapaagos, or French Polynesia, Australia, Indonesia etc...


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## aeventyr60

killarney_sailor said:


> American Samoa did seem to have a lot of kids. I would certainly try to get a teaching job arranged long before arriving on the island. There were public schools and quite a few private, mainly religious, schools. I have no idea how demanding they might be about having teaching credentials. I would think that they probably would be required. What I noticed in my travels is that all of these developing countries are graduating a lot of kids from their colleges and universities and the number of jobs requiring this level of education is small. Hence, I would guess that teaching jobs may be prized (and taken).


Over the last year or so I've met several people, cruisers and other travelers who are teaching English via Skype.

I met a gal in Bangkok a few days ago who had just completed a TOEFL certification and was interviewing for a teaching job that day.

So to add to you multi skill inventory of ways to make some money while cruising why not add a TOEFL OR TESOL qualification?


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## Group9

I would agree. Six months in the Bahamas for $300 is probably the bargain of the century in terms of vacation deals.


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## christian.hess

if anyone feels like helping I started a new thread in the electrical forum

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/elect...ne-wheres-my-negative-jajaja.html#post1850042

Im not the best with electrical systems...any tips appreciated


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## killarney_sailor

Country fees are a significant cost. It gets cheaper if you stay in one country for a longer time, but then you can run up against visa limits and extensions. We found the expensive ones were Panama, Ecuador, Galapagos, French Polynesia, and Australia.


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## mitiempo

Group9 said:


> I would agree. Six months in the Bahamas for $300 is probably the bargain of the century in terms of vacation deals.


And if your boat is 30' or less the fee is only $150 for 12 months, and this includes a fishing license.

In B.C. an annual non resident's fishing license costs $106


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## LilBabyPenguin

Thanks everyone. Yeah if we stay longer it would definitely make it a better value. We are planning to head down and stay in St. John USVI at first, and we will take our time getting there as much as possible. I'm just thinking about islands that you are truly just passing through but want to stop and anchor for the night. Or if we are in usvi and want to go over to bvi for the day to snorkel. That's where it seems to become a little tricky and expensive.


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## MikeOReilly

Just thought I'd share this with my favourite thread. We are inching closer to cutting the dock lines.

Over the past month I've been contorting my aging and broken back into tiny twisty spaces as I race to finish all those final projects. So far my partner and I have:


Installed new stove/oven (Force10).
Built and installed new cabinetry, expanding storage space in the salon.
Built hinged solar panel brackets.
Installed new solar panels.
Installed new charge controller (for wind gen and solar).
Re-bedded leaking stanchions.
Installed new VHF(DSC)/GPS/AIS radio.
End-to-end chain, and remarked.
Adjusted stuffing box.
De-winterized engine and plumbing.
New anti-foul.
And a bunch more smaller stuff that seems to go on and on... Tomorrow we launch!

I can hardly wait to get away from the dock so I can get some rest. I think we'll sail to a nearby anchorage and just relax for a week.


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## mrhoneydew

Hooray MikeO!!!! That is so great! Thank you for the update.  Please keep posting as you are able. I am looking at another year before I can cut the lines, so any vicarious inspiration you can muster will be a huge boost. Take Care!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## travlin-easy

Mike, I know about the aging, twisted, contorted back and the associated pain - I experience it every day now. When you get down my way, look me up and you'll get to see the paint job I'm doing on the Morgan 33 OI - It's looking more and more like a brand new boat.

Hope to see you this summer,

Gary


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## MikeOReilly

mrhoneydew said:


> Hooray MikeO!!!! That is so great! Thank you for the update.  Please keep posting as you are able. I am looking at another year before I can cut the lines, so any vicarious inspiration you can muster will be a huge boost. Take Care!


Thanks MrHoneydew. I'll post when I can (and we're not gone yet). A year goes by pretty fast. You'll be out there before you know it. Hope we bump into each other.



travlineasy said:


> Mike, I know about the aging, twisted, contorted back and the associated pain - I experience it every day now. When you get down my way, look me up and you'll get to see the paint job I'm doing on the Morgan 33 OI - It's looking more and more like a brand new boat.
> 
> Hope to see you this summer,


Ain't it the truth. I'm not quite at your age yet Gary, but I managed to break a whole lot of bones in an accident when I was younger. I swear, my body is 20 years older than my what my birth certificate claims.

My mantra this past few weeks, after working in small corners all day, has been: _"Honey, we need a 50-footer!"_ Of course my darling wife (who has also been working hard) just smiles lovingly and tells me to suck it up. She's so sweet .

I really hope we'll see meet up Gary, but it won't be this summer. Our destination is Lake Ontario this year. We want to do the St. Lawrence, so our ambitions are small (by most of you guys' standards). Besides, we really do live by my signature line. But we'll see that shinny Morgan of yours some day Gary.


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## MUSIC40

Congrats on the start of the journey !


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## northoceanbeach

killarney_sailor said:


> Country fees are a significant cost. It gets cheaper if you stay in one country for a longer time, but then you can run up against visa limits and extensions. We found the expensive ones were Panama, Ecuador, Galapagos, French Polynesia, and Australia.


Where did you find the best balance between being a safe and somewhat modern country, and inexpensive.

When I was younger, like 16, and I should get back into looking at some information, I used to spend hours looking at places I could go for months and years of almost nothing. I think my conclusions at the time, and things are probably different were:

Egypt
Morocco
Indonesia
Costa Rica
Fiji


----------



## christian.hess

Im glad this thread started again...

for me at least I can comment on central america...and costa rica is by far the most expensive and touristy for general "living" but of course has the biggest international community, expats, etc...

nicaragua has it beat hands down today...is less populated and much safer than surrounding countries(el salvador, honduras, guatemala) is very cheap, very safe, very beautiful

those last 3 countries(mine included) have the worst crime in the area...followed by belize, and finally panama

I would comment on the pros of el salvador but it would be a biased opinion honestly...so I wont...but plenty to do and cheaper at least than others in the area

barely though...

anywhoo

hope this thread gets back on track, missed it!

jajaja


----------



## killarney_sailor

northoceanbeach said:


> Where did you find the best balance between being a safe and somewhat modern country, and inexpensive.
> 
> When I was younger, like 16, and I should get back into looking at some information, I used to spend hours looking at places I could go for months and years of almost nothing. I think my conclusions at the time, and things are probably different were:
> 
> Egypt
> Morocco
> Indonesia
> Costa Rica
> Fiji


You have to consider how long you can stay in a particular country and for that matter how long your boat can (they are two separate issues in many cases). Also, if the clock runs out in one place where can you go and how long until you can return to the country you want. I have been on two of your countries by boat (Fiji and Indonesia) and can recommend both, or at least the parts of the countries I have been. Both countries are safe and inexpensive but whether they are modern enough is a personal choice. Fiji (at least Suva) is quite modern, southern Indonesia other than Bali, which is also quite crowded in the modern bits. I would add Ecuador and Panama to the list I think. Of the four, my choice would be Ecuador but I don't know what the visa situation is and it is crappy for actual sailing. Was in Egypt before the 'recent unpleasantness' and is seemed incredibly safe with cops with AK47s on every corner. You can live cheaply but not to a western standard. Would be way down my list. If I was living in the Middle East it would be either Israel or Jordan, which we very much liked.


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## christian.hess

egypt was great...however you really had to pick where to live, in the south going up the red sea you would never think you are in egypt but more like RUSSIA...very western, touristy and just plain ol typical tourist towns...

however I really enjoyed cairo...dont know what it was...

this was wow almost 7 years ago already before the crap hit the fan

time flies


----------



## mrhoneydew

I have missed this thread too! Any notable projects going on? I hauled out in April, painted the bottom, painted the deck and mast (still needs another coat), and didn't get to a tenth of the things I had wanted to. Was out for a week and ran out of time. Splashed back in the water and headed out from the marina in Port Townsend when just past the breakwater I look down and see about 4" of water sloshing around down below. I turned around to head back while my buddy operated the manual bilge pump. Then it dawned on me that I had neglected to re-clamp a cockpit drain hose and it had worked loose. I quickly put it back together and we tied up, as luck would have it, next to the pump out station. We routed the hose down below and had it sucked out in no time. Whew!

The moral of the story and how it applies to frugal cruising is:

"It doesn't matter how little money you spend if you sink your boat doing something mundane and stupid."




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## christian.hess

naaaah been raining a lot and $$$$ are low...slow season at the restaurant...that and baby stuff...

did manage to get my vynil lettering done though for the boat renaming ceremony

some day

but not much going on unfortunately

peace


----------



## MikeOReilly

mrhoneydew said:


> ...I look down and see about 4" of water sloshing around down below. I turned around to head back while my buddy operated the manual bilge pump. Then it dawned on me that I had neglected to re-clamp a cockpit drain hose and it had worked loose.


We splashed today (finally!). Launching and hauling are always stressful (for me, anyway). Seeing our 14 ton boat being lifted in the air is always unnerving, but all went well. We're only sinking slowly so all's well. Sure is nice to walk on a moving deck again.

We did have a similar, if less dramatic situation as yours though mrhoneydew. We're still sitting in the slings and I'm checking all the thru-hulls. Everything is looking good. Then I peer into the bilge and can see a flow of water draining in from the bow. At least 15 to 20 litres per minute I'd say. Whoa! Scramble around, look at all the thru-hulls again, all fine. Then I hear this tinkle of water from under the galley sink. Look in and find that some idiot (me ) forgot to reconnect the inline strainer on the raw water intake. And worse, I left the valve open. Water was pouring into the sink cabinet (b/c it is below the waterline) and draining into the bilge. A quick fix (and a general mop up) and we're all good.

Hope to get the sails rigged over the next few days, clamp on the windvane and windmill, and get out for a shakedown. Still have to finish the radio and solar panel install, and might replace our windlass. But she's floating, and looking fine


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## travlin-easy

Whew! 

Gary


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## MikeOReilly

I finished the install on our new SH VHF. It is the new one with GPS and AIS (receiver) built in. The AIS is pretty cool. I can now see all the big ships within 10nm, and best of all, can get their MMSI info and can issue a digital VHF call to them with a simple click of a button. Kinda cool.


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## christian.hess

nice!

pics?


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## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> nice!
> 
> pics?


I'll snap a few tomorrow Christian. Right now, I'm back home and it's beer time .


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## christian.hess

beer time????????????????????????????????????????

x2

same here

peace


----------



## MikeOReilly

Kept forgetting about a pic. Here's our new VHF-AIS receiver radio. You can see the AIS data for a nearby ship.


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## travlin-easy

Mike, that blows the Hell out of a months cruising budget. 

Gary


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## christian.hess

yeah I was going to say how much is that puppy? jajaja

the issue is for me at least ais is dependant and to a degree only helpful depending on where you cruise at...

for this coast of the pacific you need visuall aids and a good lookout always to be safe...ais would trully not be worth it...

again it solely depends on where you cruise...

id love it for the foggy san fran bay or similar congested areas...

aaaah to dream


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## UnionPacific

AIS... If it was not so costly, I may have it. When I buy my next radio next year, if they offer one with it for $50-100 more, then I will have it. I wish it was two way, with an option to turn it off, but I will not pay $600 so ships can see me then run me down. The truth is, we have to get out of their way, not vice versa. I do not like the idea thou, of being tracked. call me an old fool, but when I want to remain hidden, I want to be hidden.


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## MikeOReilly

Cost me $339.95 CND, which is about $315 US. A bit pricey, to be sure, but fog is a constant friend up here on the Great Lakes. And we're heading into a pretty congested commercial waterway (Lakes St. Clair, Erie and Ontario, plus the St. Lawrence Seaway). I really can't tell you if AIS will be useful for us -- yet. I'm going to find out though. 

Personally, I'd rather have radar, but that was out of the budget. Plus, I don't have the time to install. Next season (I hope).

BTW, this is a receiver-only. No transmissions. I can see them, they can't see me. A transceiver system is more expensive, and a bit harder to install. And although it pains me to say this, I agree with UP here. I don't like the idea of transmitting my position to everyone out there.


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## christian.hess

for your area its great great buy

I dont think $315 is excessive, I actually thought it was much much more expensive

Im in the receiver only crowd, same goes for ssb and weather...although I did have fun sending emails on sailmail back in the day.

enjoy it!

peace


----------



## travlin-easy

Instead of AIS, I'm gonna opt for the Lowrance 3G Radar system instead. Yeah, I know, it's $1,100, but I'm not leavin the money for the kids to squander - I'm gonna piss it away first. 

Gary


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## MedSailor

MikeOReilly said:


> Kept forgetting about a pic. Here's our new VHF-AIS receiver radio. You can see the AIS data for a nearby ship.


I'm intrigued, because I may get one of these.

Do you find that display usable? It's hard for me to see how it works exactly. It kind of looks like you're gettings swarmed by little rings.... "Hard to star/port??"

MedSailor


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## JonEisberg

MedSailor said:


> I'm intrigued, because I may get one of these.
> 
> Do you find that display usable? It's hard for me to see how it works exactly. It kind of looks like you're gettings swarmed by little rings.... "Hard to star/port??"
> 
> MedSailor


They're a pretty good bang for the buck, IMHO... Why anyone wouldn't spend the few extra bucks for what is already a very good VHF to have AIS receive, is a mystery to me... Greatest enhancement to offshore safety and collision avoidance since the advent of radar, in my opinion, now available at a very reasonable cost...

Whether the display is "usable" is a relative term to some, I suppose... In a place like NY harbor, that screen can get a bit cluttered, but of course you can adjust the range to suit the situation. By selecting a target, it will give you range, bearing, speed and course of the target, usually its identity, CPA and time of CPA... The one thing it will NOT tell you is whether the target will pass ahead or astern of you, you have to determine that yourself...

Of course, for many of today's voyagers, that is a major failing of these types of units, they want to be able to SEE that on their plotter display, and have it figure that out for them 

There are ways to figure that out for yourself, of course... These things can actually be sort of fun to play with, but I suspect many out there today don't have a clue what they are 










Ahhh, wait - the day is saved...

Of course, there's an app for that 

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.spatialind.imoboard&hl=en


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## christian.hess

jajaja good ole plotting board....had one scratched up many a time that I used in captains school and kept but never did get that much use in real life

nice!


----------



## MikeOReilly

Based on my limited exposure to this new tool, I agree with Jon's comments. I see this as a pretty inexpensive tool that can provide good info, but it still requires navigation work on my part to make it effective.



MedSailor said:


> I'm intrigued, because I may get one of these.
> 
> Do you find that display usable? It's hard for me to see how it works exactly. It kind of looks like you're gettings swarmed by little rings.... "Hard to star/port??"


I really haven't used it yet, so I reserve the right to amend or change my mind, but the AIS function easily allows you to change the range setting, from 1 nm to 35 (I think that's it ... going from memory). In a cluttered area you'd have to reduce the range to make the visual useful. The visual is a relative scale of what's around you. It shows a COG vector for you and your targets, and the detailed info on each target gives the closest-point-of-approach (CPA) for all your targets. There is an alarm which can alert you if there is a predicted collision. You can also easily make a DSC VHF call to any target, using their name and ship info. This may be the most useful aspect of the radio.



travlineasy said:


> Instead of AIS, I'm gonna opt for the Lowrance 3G Radar system instead. Yeah, I know, it's $1,100, but I'm not leavin the money for the kids to squander - I'm gonna piss it away first.


Let us know how the new radar goes for you. I'll likely be installing radar next year for our run down the St. Lawrence and over to NFLD. I still haven't got my head around all the new 3G/4G digital radar systems. Love to hear how it goes.


----------



## christian.hess

word Im all ears too


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## killarney_sailor

We are big fans of AIS both receive and transmit. We have noticed ships altering their course to avoid us at distances where we cannot even see the ship. We particularly noticed this going along the northern shore of the Dominican/Haiti which had a lot of traffic. We would see that we had a CPA with a ship of say 0.1 nm when we were 10 miles away and were keeping a close eye on things so that we could alter when we got closer. Ships would change their course by 2 or 3° until they were passed us and then resume their original course (they know from the AIS you are a sailboat). We had a ship off the coast of Venezuela call to complain that they had seen us on AIS at 15 miles or so but did not see our tricolour light until two miles (which is what the visibility should be as I remember).

Being able to call ships by name is truly wonderful. We had a big Maersk container ship coming right up our bum off the coast of Ecuador at noon on a lovely, sunny day. CPA was going to be a few feet. I was going to alter and thought what the hell let me give him a call. He answered first thing and I said I was the sailboat directly in front of him and asked what his passing intentions were. Nice Indian gentleman reacted with a shocked tone and started heading in the general direction of New Zealand (they were going south at the time). Clearly no one on the bridge was looking outside or at radar or AIS.

Nothing is perfect but it is nice to have the tools.


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## christian.hess

aaaah nothing like being almost run over by a wall of steel

had that happen off puerto vallarta mexico...

no ais back then and no radar on our measly 28 footer, however we did have those dome reflectors

point being watches, its your responsibility, dont count on others to be on watch/lookout.


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## Group9

christian.hess said:


> aaaah nothing like being almost run over by a wall of steel
> 
> had that happen off puerto vallarta mexico...
> 
> no ais back then and no radar on our measly 28 footer, however we did have those dome reflectors
> 
> point being watches, its your responsibility, dont count on others to be on watch/lookout.


I had one of those pucker times, almost getting run over by a barge/tow late one night, that obviously had no clue we were there.


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## MikeOReilly

Group9 said:


> I had one of those pucker times, almost getting run over by a barge/tow late one night, that obviously had no clue we were there.


We had a couple of those moments a few years ago while moving our boat up through the Great Lakes to Lake Superior. Motoring through the narrowest of dredged sections, our engine would cut out and we'd be left with limited steerage. One section had us going between two islands. Of course, this was the time the engine died and a huge freighter caught up to us. We managed to keep out of its way in the canal that was barely wide enough to fit it alone. It felt like a city block passing us by ... and we were almost close enough to reach out and touch it.

BTW, I don't think the crew of this vessel ever saw us at all. They could easily have run us over and would have never noticed. Sobering indeed.


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## Kostis

Mike how is everything man?


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## MikeOReilly

Kostis said:


> Mike how is everything man?


Hi Kostis, things are moving along rather rapidly now. Most of the immediate projects are nearing completion. I just mounted the windvane yesterday. Today I have to service my outboard and little backup generator, then mount my windmill and finally provision. My wife delivered our car down to the yard we're heading for this year (in Lake Ontario), so we're fully committed. I hope to be gone within a week now.

I expect we're going to sail to a nearby anchorage, and just sit for a few days so we can relax. It's been so exhausting these last few weeks, what with all the projects. I'm sooooo looking forward to just getting away.


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## Kostis

Keep us (or at least me) informed. I am so jealous man. Best of luck


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## MikeOReilly

Kostis said:


> Keep us (or at least me) informed. I am so jealous man. Best of luck


Will do Kostis. I'll post when I can. Still here for another week though, so you're not rid of me yet .


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## MikeOReilly

Despite my grandious predictions, I'm still at the dock. July 1 departure turned into July 5, then 7th, now we're looking at the 11th. I feel like I'm living in a Zeno's Paradox, where with each step I get 1/2 way to my goal of getting away. First 1/2, then 1/4, then 1/8, 1/16, 1/32 ... THERE'S ALWAYS MORE STEPS 

Well, tomorrow is the day. We will move onto the boat, and Friday (weather permitting) we cut the lines and head off.

... Sorry, not really on topic, but I had to vent. Back to the thread.


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## mrhoneydew

Nope. Thanks for the update! Every year a friend of mine heads up the Inside Passage to Desolation Sound for a few months of summer. And every year there are countless things to do before departure. Every year is just as frustrating as the previous... until he and his wife are finally out for a week or two. Then all of these concerns just sort of fade away. Yours will too. You're almost there! Just keep on keepin' on. 


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## MedSailor

Nobody ever leaves for a big trip on time and nobody ever leaves with the to do list done. Somewhere in the middle of these two realities is your departure date. 

Try and keep the dockside work to what HAS to be done and remember that a lot of projects can be done at anchor or your next port.


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## MedSailor

Also for Petes sake don't leave on a Friday! See rebel heart's blog rant about how the friday myth is stupid if you're in doubt. One guess what day they left on...


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## DHusk

Keep at it, Mike. You're almost there! It'll be that much sweeter when you cut the lines.


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## killarney_sailor

Mike, remember you are not leaving on a trip around the world. You are only heading to Lake Ontario and there are lots of places along the way where you can fix things as needed.You will have bad weather days or days you want to stay over somewhere where there will be a few hours to tinker. The boat will never to ready (and I mean that entirely literally).


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## MikeOReilly

Thanks guys. It's not so much the actual projects, it's just the final throes of closing off the home, stocking the boat with food and clothes and tools and safety gear and, and, and... Doesn't matter. Today is the day. 

As for Friday departures, does it count if I don't really know what day it actually is? I've been self-employed for over 20 years. I'm often surprised and amused how salaried folk talk about weekend, holidays and the differences between Monday and Friday. They're all the same to me . So it's easy for me to lose track of what day it actually is. I can easily be fooled into thinking Friday is Wednesday .


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## mitiempo

MikeOReilly said:


> As for Friday departures, does it count if I don't really know what day it actually is?


Murphy knows what day it is.


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## christian.hess

mike good luck, like KS says you can refit on the way down....if anything needs to be done...

about leaving on friday you are either full blown sailor superstitious or nothing...dont pay attention to some superstitions and then ignore others...

the gods dont like that

jajajajajajaja


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## mitiempo

When I was very young I got hell from my dad for opening a can of coffee cream upside down. He was a sailor and had the superstitions most had in that era. 

I'm not superstitious but I haven't opened anything upside down since. Why take a chance?


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## christian.hess

oooooooooooooooooooooooh noooooooooooooooooooooooooo1 jajaja

Im kidding btw...there are some things I just do from tradition...or whatever...its impossible not to do things certain ways on boats...its just the nature of it...

and yes we didnt leave on fridays eitther...mostly because when we were coastal cruising that meant arriving on a day where nothing was open or doable...so we would get bored sitting on the boat quarantined...so we would always try to plan arriving on a "work" day

I know plenty do this so they can move about freely around town and stuff but you never know huh? jajaja

jeje


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## barefootnavigator

Update: I thought I would give an update to this thread. I have temporarily swallowed the hook and am living aboard at the dock in paradise. I'm in one of the most expensive places in the US and now my budget has climbed to $750 but I have to say I am living quite extravagantly. If I was 500 yards away living on the hook $500.00 would still be more than enough to live here. If you have a safe simple boat and do your own maintenance $500.00 a month will always be enough to live quite well.


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## Westsailforever

Where are you Alan ? Lets see some pics.


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## christian.hess

lets get this thread back!

PLEASE! ajajaja

on my end...getting my wiring finally worked on, solar panel getting a wood mount on for the davits, and then its taking all the cushions, gear, motors down to the boat...
install depth sounder still...and lighting.

still have to get the new name on

its just been real slow progress...

ps. for those of us interested in bare bones sailing or sub $500 there is a guy I have been watching lately on latitude 38 and his you tube vids and it cheered me up quite a bit since he is/was sailing in many of the places nearby here that I remembered way back when.

stephan ries on his engineless triton mintaka





happy sailing folks


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## mrhoneydew

Yeah... I need some inspiration! I have been busy... _working!_  Tried to go out on a perfect day this past Saturday with nice, steady winds out of the South. Not blowing too light or too hard. Just a daysail across Lake Washington to Kirkland for some lunch and back. Would have been a beautiful beam reach in both directions. Stupid @#%$! outboard died before I could make it out of the marina and the wind was pushing me back in. Couldn't get the thing restarted. So I packed it in and went and had a beer and ended up pissing away the rest of the day. When I got back to the boat that evening I tried the outboard just for kicks. Started first pull. I had added a bit more fuel and some fuel stabilizer with an evaporant in it... I think there may have been some moisture in the tank. At any rate, I think Neptune may have it in for me and this boat! But I am undeterred. I WILL sail.


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## christian.hess

awesome man...about outboards water is the biggest no starter cause...

you guys up north have seafoam and seafoam is the simplest and easiest fuel maintainer to use...

I always used it and didnt bother changing to something else as I never felt the need and it worked darn well...I also used it in my motorcycles...

in any case...youll get sailing dont worry about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

good luck


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## newhaul

My latest gaurage sale frugal score an early 80's. Tohatsu 8 HP outboard for twenty five bucks cleaned and adjusted carb starts first or second pull even when cold so I sold my 6hp evinrude for 350 gained two horse so will burn less fuel ( will take half throttle to do hull speed old one was close to full throttle ) and I added 325 to the boat maintance kitty. Haven'tfigured out how to post pics from this tablet yyet.


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## christian.hess

25 bucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????????????????????????? you thief! jajajajaja man what a score!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

congrats


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## travlin-easy

Barefootnavigator, where is Paradise?

Gary


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## mrhoneydew

I know you posed this to Barefoot, but I am in the same location. If I may, paradise is the Salish Sea. Pacific Northwest from Puget Sound to Desolation Sound. It is a truly remarkable place. Up in the North you can go for days without seeing another soul. Salmon, halibut, crab, clams, prawns... And you see whales, eagles, porpoise. Sometimes I question my sanity at my intention to leave it in the next few years.


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## christian.hess

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah nice...Im not too familiar with the name salish sea...but I am familiar with desolation sound and some of those areas in the pnw...my sister lives in the end of the world in lund, bc...I lOVED that place...

wish I could sail my boat up there and live with the family there for a while...

anybody want to hire a private boat chef? jajaja 10 month old and wife? jajajajajajajaja

peace

ps. paradise is in the eye of the beholder...amen!


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## MedSailor

christian.hess said:


> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah nice...Im not too familiar with the name salish sea...but I am familiar with desolation sound and some of those areas in the pnw...my sister lives in the end of the world in lund, bc...I lOVED that place...
> 
> wish I could sail my boat up there and live with the family there for a while...
> 
> anybody want to hire a private boat chef? jajaja 10 month old and wife? jajajajajajajaja
> 
> peace
> 
> ps. paradise is in the eye of the beholder...amen!


Does your wife know that you're trying to hire her out? 

MedSailor


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## mrhoneydew

Salish Sea is a recent change within the last few years. It is more inclusive of the whole body of water as a connected waterway rather than separated by some arbitrary line drawn on a map.

Hey... I'm getting a two-burner alcohol stove soon that I picked up on eBay. Might be a little cramped on my 28 footer what with my dog and all... and I don't really have the kind of money to hire a private chef, but who knows? Maybe we could work something out!  Lol!


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## christian.hess

MedSailor said:


> Does your wife know that you're trying to hire her out?
> 
> MedSailor


NO keep it a secret...the kid will be able to work in a couple of years too....you know cleaning pots and pans and whatever:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher

top secret folks! please


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## travlin-easy

Having lived in the Pacific Northwest for three years, I wouldn't categorize the Salish Sea as Paradise - too cold, too wet, and way too far north for this old codger. 

Gary


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## newhaul

christian.hess said:


> NO keep it a secret...the kid will be able to work in a couple of years too....you know cleaning pots and pans and whatever:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher
> 
> top secret folks! please


Your kids just the right size now to preform the job of bilge rat he can get under the engines to clean without being a contortionist :laugher::laugher


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## christian.hess

dude you have no idea how many things Im going to make him do...but hey dont tell the wife

jajajaja


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## Sal Paradise

The OP was "setting off in a few months" back in January....... did he ever get anywhere?


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## newhaul

Sal Paradise said:


> The OP was "setting off in a few months" back in January....... did he ever get anywhere?


Reread post 2152 it answers your question


----------



## Capt Len

C H, Lund is just the end of the 101. The real world lies to the north but we try to keep it a secret. For you searchers and dreamers. it's always cold and cloudy. Sometimes in August it stops drizzling but currents and tides make it a completely dangerous place full of rocks.


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## MedSailor

August = Fogust! Beware thar be dragons! 

MedSailor


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## mrhoneydew

Capt Len said:


> C H, Lund is just the end of the 101. The real world lies to the north but we try to keep it a secret. For you searchers and dreamers. it's always cold and cloudy. Sometimes in August it stops drizzling but currents and tides make it a completely dangerous place full of rocks.


Oh. Yeah. I forgot to mention all of that stuff. It is a "paradise" for those of us who aren't quite right in the head. Most people who aren't already here probably wouldn't like it. Cold, clammy... fluky winds... yup the place pretty much sucks by normal standards. I recommend sticking to the tropics if you're looking for paradise.

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## Dirtyfloats

Paradise for sure. 
In my version i don't go any further south than lasquitti. 
Avoid nanaimo like the plague and no more than a few days in comox at a time. Everything north of that is fantastic. 
Most yachties cant seem to make it farther north than desolation. Turns seymour narrows into a real gateway to a peaceful coast.

Sent from my HUAWEI Y300-0151 using Tapatalk


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## christian.hess

Capt Len said:


> C H, Lund is just the end of the 101. The real world lies to the north but we try to keep it a secret. For you searchers and dreamers. it's always cold and cloudy. Sometimes in August it stops drizzling but currents and tides make it a completely dangerous place full of rocks.


thanks yeah thats what my sister says...but she likes to reffer to it as the end of the world...its obvious its not since you have beaitiful mountains and water and forests and everything else for as far as the eye can see...

I was there in January I beleive....it was snowing.

my sister lived in a huge log cabin up on a hill overlooking the small harbour....

great place...

ps. I like the keep it a secret attitude...let people find out on their own! jajaja


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## christian.hess

mrhoneydew said:


> Oh. Yeah. I forgot to mention all of that stuff. It is a "paradise" for those of us who aren't quite right in the head. Most people who aren't already here probably wouldn't like it. Cold, clammy... fluky winds... yup the place pretty much sucks by normal standards. I recommend sticking to the tropics if you're looking for paradise.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


like here! jajajaja paradise is many places

btw, panel installed...next depthsounder and electrical panel...after that its maiden sail time! wish me luck


----------



## killarney_sailor

You are actually going to go sailing. That can be dangerous. Much safer to keep the boat in one place and just spend time and money fixing it - although you should not spend more than $500 a month on this apparently.


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## christian.hess

it can be deadly! DONT DO IT

jajajajaja


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## MikeOReilly

Hi guys, just popping in as we are now tucked into a cute little marina for a couple of days for resupply and to meet a friend. It's been 20 days on our norther paradise of Lake Superior. I've sailed small parts of the the Sailish and it is amazing. Reminds me a lot of Superior.

Actually, we've just passed into the North Channel. Feels very weird going from 3 degreeC water to now where it is 18C. Lots of zippy boats everywhere, and big freighters (love my AIS receiver!). Way too many people and development ... Plus, it's HOT! Ah well, all part of the journey.


----------



## Group9

At least some people here are actually out cruising. My wife and I are not.

My wife and I have decided that May 1 is our cut the dock lines day for the next extended cruise.

We are lucky that the boat is paid for and we have good health insurance, and two pensions. But, we have a lot of people living off our income right now, that we can't cut loose yet, and a U.S. tax structure that makes it advantageous to leave our 401 K's alone until 62, that reduces our net to about $2500 a month after we shut down our side business (which is the main reason we can't go until May 1). 

So I am back in that null zone that so many people seem to get stuck in: namely, getting the boat (and, us) ready to go. If we waited six years, our net income would be tripled, But we are both 56 and have decided that we need to do this (again for me, first time for her) while we are still young enough and healthy enough to do it and enjoy it (my last extended cruise was 2010-2011).

But reading these posts have been a lot of incentive to go ahead and pull the trigger. We've got a lot of routine maintenance to do on the boat, but nothing major (stuff like finally figuring out where the leak in the freshwater system is, rebuilding the toilet, doing a bottom job, replacing all of the canvas and running rigging, and getting the sails and standing rigging inspected and/or replaced,... stuff like that.. ). More Winnebago stuff on the boat, than sailing stuff.

Our plan is to head up the east coast of the US first and spend the summer on the Chesapeake, and then when it starts to get cold, head south until the we are warm again. 

Thanks to everyone who is posting their actual experiences, here and in other posts. You keep me going. 

Trying to live up to my sig line!!!!


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## MikeOReilly

Group9 said:


> So I am back in that null zone that so many people seem to get stuck in: namely, getting the boat (and, us) ready to go. If we waited six years, our net income would be tripled, But we are both 56 and have decided that we need to do this (again for me, first time for her) while we are still young enough and healthy enough to do it and enjoy it (my last extended cruise was 2010-2011).


May will come quick enough Group9. Hang in there .

Your comments about age and going sooner ring true to me (and my spouse) right now. It's amazing how age makes things harder. We're constantly commenting to ourselves "old man ... old woman" when we are doing the simplest boat things. It's come up a few times over the last month that we're both glad we're going now (at age 47 and 52). To be fair I have the body of a 65-year old (due to a 7-story fall when I was younger), and I'm not saying we won't still be out here in 20 years, but waiting until "retirement" and then living just seems increasingly crazy.

BTW Group9, as me old dad used to say, "If I had your money, I'd throw mine away!" You're rich. Go man go!


----------



## mrhoneydew

Thanks for the update MikeO! You're oooooouuuuuuttttt tttttthhhhhheeeeerrrrreeee!!!!!! Woohoo! Congrats! 

Yeah, I'm in a similar boat to Group9. Too much stuff to do to be able to cut the lines just yet so I'm shooting for May also. My current boat simply isn't going to work so I am looking to trade up in the next couple of months and then take the winter to do whatever I need to do to that boat. I guess at 41 I'm a "spring chicken" by some standards, but my right shoulder might beg to differ... and it has recruited my right knee and cervical and lumbar spines in a slow plot against me. So I can't get out here soon enough. I think just getting away from this uncivilized civilization I find myself mired in should be good for taking off 5 - 10 years.

I hope.


----------



## Dirtyfloats

That's in fact, what it's all about for me.
Escape from an insane civilization and its death urge.


----------



## Lou452

Just checking in. Hope you all are doing great ! I have been working my job also playing with the family and boat and have little time for anything else until winter. I think I have busted over $500 but it has been a great summer so far with more to come. 
Kind Regards , Lou


----------



## CaptnBry

I've done three cruises so far; each with NO intent of returning...

So obviously I failed the "Not Returning thing" (met a girl, drank the Koolaide, lost half my money, back to work, yadayadayada-common story)

I bought a solid, low dollar Cruiser with a Full Keel by the eminent Bill Garden; a Rawson 30.
Took the money i saved and invested it per Ann Hill, "Voyaging on a Small Income"

Cruise #1; 28 year old with little more than a spear-gun and a loincloth; $80/mo over 2years.

Cruise #2; 40ish with a Spectra Watermaker since going to land is expensive. However, I like to enjoy folks, which takes more cash. Note; the Marketeers insinuate themselves into nearly all social interactions. ; $265/mo over 3 years.

Cruise #3; New engine, maxd-out Solar panels, boat is fit for 45 days at Sea, no problems....met a girl, yadayada lost Principle(a Sin); 450/mo included a haulout in San Carlos. (does NOT include the $28k 'personal stupidity' losses) Really good lesson learned; "Its an Island, if you didn't bring it, it aint here!"

So I'd say its what you spend on land, minus mortgage/rent, age(comfort) and BRING your girl WITH you. (yeah, she will be more expensive than your monthlies, BTW)

Calculate YOUR Cost of a Job; Rent/car/phone (everything you're paying for that you WON'T be paying for once Cruising) Note; your 'boss' pays you with the assumption the Suburbanite lifestyle is everyone's ONLY option.

Philosophy; One needs 'push' AND 'pull' reasons to live at Sea- make a List and keep for those rough times at Sea.
What is your Freedom worth? (as a Vet, its worth my life, for a stranger's freedom. So how much more so for my own? ... lots)
Do you want to Cruise? or have a pizza delivered once a week?
Cruising means your Highs are higher and your Lows are lower, for some, they trade Predictability over Freedom; example; Track Housing.

Have your own Life Philosophy; With a sustainable philosophy, humans can happily forgo many conveniences, and even live with a bit of fear. Reference; Human History 101

The Price of Freedom, personal or national, has always been Self Sufficiency.

Cheers,
CaptnBry


----------



## CaptnBry

*Re: Voyaging on $500 per month or $75K Price of Freedom*

$500/ month is just $75K principal at a reasonable Yield of 8% per year.
Rather Do-Able, IMHO....

In the Old Days, an Indentured Servant could (in theory at least) could buy his or her "freedom".
Of course that Freedom was accompanied by just the shirt on your back and any skills you might have collected. A condition of many low-budget Cruisers, it would seem....

$500 per month to be Free (Cruising, if that's your Dream) may be looked at as "How much do I need to invest, so that I might not need to return to work (work=not being Free)?

500 * 12 months is $6000/year, invested a 8% (6000/0.08) is $75000.
Incidentally, that's about what the USA National Debt is per Citizen, The Irony of Freedom, if you will...

So if a Cruiser has a budget and plan to GO, can this "self created Trust Fund" be included too?

The topic is covered well (if dated) by Anne Hill in her worthy book, 'Voyaging on a Small Income'.
"Stock Market" Corporate Bonds, Investing in RE, ROI, Yield/Risk analysis, Income Strategies, are the modern counter parts.

I would think that those who consider safety gear to return from the Sea, would also consider a method to Stay at Sea...

Is buying One's Freedom from land-based work part of your Cruising Plan?


----------



## Capt Len

Some long time cruiser friends are on the move again after many years on the other side of the world.After years of getting by quite nicely they will be faced with the reality of 'it costs how much?' as the world they knew here has moved on too. Dropping out for a couple of years is easy ,.Having a realistic long time plan takes some planning or hind titting.


----------



## UnionPacific

*Re: Voyaging on $500 per month or $75K Price of Freedom*



CaptnBry said:


> $500/ month is just $75K principal at a reasonable Yield of 8% per year.
> Rather Do-Able, IMHO....
> 
> In the Old Days, an Indentured Servant could (in theory at least) could buy his or her "freedom".
> Of course that Freedom was accompanied by just the shirt on your back and any skills you might have collected. A condition of many low-budget Cruisers, it would seem....
> 
> $500 per month to be Free (Cruising, if that's your Dream) may be looked at as "How much do I need to invest, so that I might not need to return to work (work=not being Free)?
> 
> 500 * 12 months is $6000/year, invested a 8% (6000/0.08) is $75000.
> Incidentally, that's about what the USA National Debt is per Citizen, The Irony of Freedom, if you will...
> 
> So if a Cruiser has a budget and plan to GO, can this "self created Trust Fund" be included too?
> 
> The topic is covered well (if dated) by Anne Hill in her worthy book, 'Voyaging on a Small Income'.
> "Stock Market" Corporate Bonds, Investing in RE, ROI, Yield/Risk analysis, Income Strategies, are the modern counter parts.
> 
> I would think that those who consider safety gear to return from the Sea, would also consider a method to Stay at Sea...
> 
> Is buying One's Freedom from land-based work part of your Cruising Plan?


I spend a lot of time on the stock market.
there is nothing paying a solid 8%. DRI pays 4%, And I do hold that security.
To make 8% requires active investing, so now your budget would need internet as well. Thats ok if your cruising the US coast, not so in Tahiti.


----------



## ScottUK

> To make 8% requires active investing


And if you have a bad month of active investing you will have nothing for your necessities unless you use your capital. Then, with less capital, you will need a greater return to achieve your $500. If anybody can get an 8% return on passive investments in this climate they are doing better then most and I would like to know their strategy.


----------



## UnionPacific

ScottUK said:


> And if you have a bad month of active investing you will have nothing for your necessities unless you use your capital. Then, with less capital, you will need a greater return to achieve your $500. If anybody can get an 8% return on passive investments in this climate they are doing better then most and I would like to know their strategy.


I made 400% on penny stocks this year  But I don't invest much because of the risk


----------



## ScottUK

> I made 400% on penny stocks this year


Good on ya! But I am wary of the casino stacked market because it is rigged. That said, I too am invested across the board.


----------



## UnionPacific

ScottUK said:


> Good on ya! But I am wary of the casino stacked market because it is rigged. That said, I too am invested across the board.


How does that work, investing in American stocks from the UK? Or are they EU stocks? must you pay American taxes on gains, as well as your own?


----------



## ScottUK

I am not all that active in most of my investments and those I look at it over a longer time span but do have exposure around the world and do pay taxes in a number of countries including the US.


----------



## UnionPacific

ScottUK said:


> I am not all that active in most of my investments and those I look at it over a longer time span but do have exposure around the world and do pay taxes in a number of countries including the US.


Due to the fragility of the USD, I have been thinking of converting more of my cash to GBP. Any thoughts?


----------



## Andrew65

The Sovereign Society website has a lot of overseas advice. Escape information


----------



## Andrew65

Certain countries are obligated to report American citizen accounts to big brother and some have it in their constitution (Panama) to tell big brother to fcuk themselves .


----------



## UnionPacific

Andrew65 said:


> Certain countries are obligated to report American citizen accounts to big brother and some have it in their constitution (Panama) to tell big brother to fcuk themselves .


Not trying to hide money, just attempting to diversify.


----------



## Andrew65

It doesn't necessarily mean you want to hide cash, overseas investing can pay higher dividends many times. Due diligence and diversification are key. Vanguard in the states is a pretty solid investment house. Any others have experience with them?


----------



## ScottUK

> Any thoughts?


Currency trading is quite risky and can be influenced by numerous stakeholders. A couple of weeks ago a country where I am invested issued a statement about taking measures against their currency being too high and has shrink my portfolio there by a fairly large amount - so much for a floating currency! This in spite of raising bank rates.

As far as the UK they did well by not joining the Euro common currency which gives more economic flexibility. However the UK government, in their infinite wisdom, has imposed fairly severe austerity measures, though not as severe as the EU, that has largely impacted growth. With such anemic growth the Bank of England is not likely to raise bank rates much if at all so the value of the currency is not likely to raise against other currencies.

If you have your heart set on currency trading you might look at the Aussie dollar. Their economy has weathered the Great Recession better than most due to trade with China (though China is now not too economically sound) and they are more likely to increase their bank rates and so should increase the value of their dollar. Again currency trading is risky and you also need to factor in the cost of the exchange.

In the end I would hold on to your US dollars as I think all first world currencies will stay fairly relative in value. I don't think any of these countries will have strong sustained growth in the near future and if any do it will likely be the US as the Federal Reserve as been more accommodating than other central banks.


----------



## Andrew65

It sounds like you have a good grasp of investing Scott. In your opinion, not to change the thread line, how much (minimum wise) would it take to cut the docklines in this unstable economy?


----------



## UnionPacific

Andrew65 said:


> It sounds like you have a good grasp of investing Scott. In your opinion, not to change the thread line, how much (minimum wise) would it take to cut the docklines in this unstable economy?


for how long?


----------



## Andrew65

Life man life! 

The way I see it is if you earned an annual average of 10%, 2% would be for taxes, 4% would go in your pocket, and the last 4% would maintain your principal. How much would be needed and how far off is that pipedream?


----------



## ScottUK

> Vanguard in the states is a pretty solid investment house. Any others have experience with them?


I have few of the funds. They have not set the world ablaze but am satisfied for what they are.



> It sounds like you have a good grasp of investing Scott.


Ah... no, not really. I do keep up fairly well with world economies and read from 3-5 economic reports/papers on average daily just for fun.



> In your opinion, not to change the thread line, how much (minimum wise) would it take to cut the dock lines in this unstable economy?


Well, I think think that would be more specific to each individual. As the title of this thread suggests you can go with as little as $500 but is that voyaging? To me, that budget is more in regards to survival than voyaging. When I leave, and it will be fairly soon, I want to experience the destinations I travel to so it is going to cost more money.

I really can't give a definitive sum and as for an "unstable economy" we are in an era of low inflation and the political reality is that it is likely to be the case for the foreseeable future. I think that gives a measure of stability and could be utilised for individual economic benefit.

Sorry Andrew I couldn't give you an answer. I have thought about it and could not come up with one without being extremely long winded and/or getting into specifics about myself.


----------



## Andrew65

That's why I asked the question. I agree about the 500/mo idea. It probably can be done, but you better like rice, potatoes, and walking everywhere. Not really my way I'd like to cruise.


----------



## travlin-easy

Andrew, much of this depends upon your individuals skills. For example, if you know how to fish, I really mean know how to fish, you can enjoy much better meals than rice and beans every day. How about broiled grouper, lobster, steamed shrimp, etc.. Lots of neat stuff in the sea to eat.

As for additional transportation, get off your arse, climb about an old fashioned bicycle, and pedal your way to the grocery store, liquor store, post office, etc... At age 71 I did this and really had a lot of fun along the way. I met lots of like minded folks at the stores, struck up some great friendships, some that have been keeping in touch for the past couple years.


When I needed extra money, I went back to my current profession of being an entertainer. The money I made in tops paid for my entire cockpit enclosure and still provided me sufficient funds to do lots of fishing trip/day sails in the Florida Keys and still had a lot of money left over to put gas in the tank to come back to Maryland, eat in fancy restaurants once a week, and spend some time watching other entertainers perform in the local bars and eateries.

I guess I'm very fortunate in that I can fix most everything on the boat. I can take care of the plumbing, wiring, and some engine problems without calling for help from a high-priced marina mechanic. Additionally, I've always been a very creative cook. Therefore, rice and beans were never on the menu of my boat during the entire six months I cruised to the sunny Florida Keys. The only thing I couldn't do was give myself a haircut - so I had to pay an attractive young lady at the marina to do that. She charged $10 and did a great job. And, she was among the best looking barbers I've ever been to. 

As Clint Eastwood said "A man's gotta know his limitations." 

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## christian.hess

JA well said bud

now whats this with rice and beans being a bad thing?

dont get me started!

add a tortilla, avocado, some dry cheese and some cream and its a feast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## MikeOReilly

Just had a lovely bean salad topped with our own fresh sprouts. Rice, cabbage and rutabaga curry for dinner ... what's wrong with rice and beans!?!

Today I'm baking bread and emptying our composting head. Not much lee to do as we wait out this 5-day blow up here in the North Channel (Lake Huron).


----------



## UnionPacific

Andrew65 said:


> That's why I asked the question. I agree about the 500/mo idea. It probably can be done, but you better like rice, potatoes, and walking everywhere. Not really my way I'd like to cruise.


Chicken. Pasta. 
You can eat those, and be under $500 easy.
Supplement caught fish, and your far under budget.


----------



## Andrew65

Great, now I've really put my head on the block with you guys and deserve every wack. If you knew me better, you'd know that's all I basically eat to have money for outfitting to get out of this country.
I'd eat dog food if it meant getting a better winch handle.

My apologies Gary. What you wrote was well written.


----------



## christian.hess

Andrew65 said:


> Great, now I've really put my head on the block with you guys and deserve every wack. If you knew me better, you'd know that's all I basically eat to have money for outfitting to get out of this country.
> I'd *eat dog food *if it meant getting a better winch handle.
> 
> My apologies Gary. What you wrote was well written.


you are forgiven...

well at least the rice and beans on the stove say so

jaja

btw dog food is damn expensive, WHATCHA TALKING ABOUT WILLIS?


----------



## travlin-easy

Andrew, no need to apologize. Old guys like me go on a rampage every once in a while, mainly because we're old and crazy, which is not all that bad, though.  

After living aboard for 6 months, I know that I could live fairly well on just $500 a month if I lived on the hook someplace where it's relatively warm. Of course, when your health goes to Hell in a handbasket, which mine has during the past few months, that $500 won't go very far. I went to a pulmonary doctor a couple days ago, and just the tests he conducted on my lungs cost a little over $3,000 and only took 30 minutes to complete. And, a medication he gave me samples of cost $300 for a 20-day supply. 

So, part of the equation of living aboard on $500 is remaining healthy till the day you die. Then if your friends want to see your smiling face looking up at them from a casket, add another $10,000 to $15,000 for the one day viewing and funeral. Of course, you could have your boney butt incinerated to dust for about $800 to $1,200, and have your friends dump the ashes in the open ocean. Can't dump them in Chesapeake Bay unless you get a hazardous waste permit! Can't even dump em in the back yard - legally.

The main reason I didn't stay on a mooring ball, or on the hook, which cost far less than a mooring ball, was I needed to move my music gear to and from the boat in a safe manner. Moving 250-pounds of music equipment, all of which is expensive electronics, in a 10-foot, inflatable dinghy is out of the question. Therefore, I opted to spend the extra bucks and tie up to the marina bulkhead, which was level with my deck. The cost, though, was outrageous, which is usually the case in tropical resort areas. $750 a month, plus electricity blows the Hell out of that $500 a month budget. However, with the music gear, I was able to recover the cost of dockage with just 2 to 3 days of playing at the local bars and restaurants.

Sue wish I were back there right now, 

Gary


----------



## UnionPacific

Andrew65 said:


> I'd eat dog food if it meant getting a better winch handle.


Old roy is very inexpensive at walmart. adding water would stretch it further.


----------



## Andrew65

Thanks guys. 

Union, what's the international shipping costs for it?


----------



## UnionPacific

Andrew65 said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> Union, what's the international shipping costs for it?


is there a place you want to visit that does not have a walmart?


----------



## Andrew65

If there ain't palm trees and holla holla girls next door, then no.


----------



## MedSailor

MikeOReilly said:


> Today I'm baking bread and emptying our composting head.


FYI that IS the correct order to do those things in. 

MedSailor


----------



## MikeOReilly

travlineasy said:


> After living aboard for 6 months, I know that I could live fairly well on just $500 a month if I lived on the hook someplace where it's relatively warm. Of course, when your health goes to Hell in a handbasket, which mine has during the past few months, that $500 won't go very far. I went to a pulmonary doctor a couple days ago, and just the tests he conducted on my lungs cost a little over $3,000 and only took 30 minutes to complete. And, a medication he gave me samples of cost $300 for a 20-day supply.


Gary, hope you're doing ok. Am still counting on raising a pint or two with you in a few years.


----------



## northoceanbeach

ScottUK
As the title of this thread suggests you can go with as little as $500 but is that voyaging? To me said:


> Well that's the same thing you read from a lot of people. $500 isn't enough, that's survival. They're going to do it on more and really see things. Of course the people that usually say this finish with:
> 
> WHEN I leave.
> 
> The people spending $500 a month already left.


----------



## jerryrlitton

northoceanbeach said:


> Well that's the same thing you read from a lot of people. $500 isn't enough, that's survival. They're going to do it on more and really see things. Of course the people that usually say this finish with:
> 
> WHEN I leave.
> 
> The people spending $500 a month already left.


Bravo dude, very very bravo.


----------



## christian.hess

ocean whats up with your boat man? shoot me a message

hope all is well


----------



## CaptnBry

*Re: Voyaging on $500 per month or $75K Price of Freedom*



UnionPacific said:


> I spend a lot of time on the stock market.
> there is nothing paying a solid 8%. DRI pays 4%, And I do hold that security.
> To make 8% requires active investing, so now your budget would need internet as well. Thats ok if your cruising the US coast, not so in Tahiti.


True, "...nothing pays 8%..." if it were that easy, we'd all be sailing....

I use a combination of investments which are for specific goals.
Food, and essentials; lowest risk.
Entertainment; higher risks.
It can be done and it is "active", requiring a monthly review and constant awareness.
The Net and Markets are both Interests of mine and are included in cruising plans.
Fortunately, its easier to find free WiFI spots nowadays in Mexico and other areas than in the US. It may have something to do with not everyone having internet to every house, and a less-fierce charge-everybody-for-everything culture 

You are correct (and professional) to caution the readers on returns.
A Cruising group of investments do NOT try to get rich, or even "make money" in the traditional sense; simply keep some cash flowing in and preserve Principal.
The eight works for me as a target, and usually leaves a bit left over at the end of the year.

Cheers,


----------



## newhaul

*Re: Voyaging on $500 per month or $75K Price of Freedom*



CaptnBry said:


> True,
> Fortunately, its easier to find free WiFI spots nowadays in Mexico and other areas than in the US. It may have something to do with not everyone having internet to every house, and a less-fierce charge-everybody-for-everything culture
> 
> Cheers,


Actually Starbucks is free again for WiFi and they are the most prolific coffee place in the states. Most major hotel chains also


----------



## CaptnBry

Also, I've found Clear Wireless has some coverage offshore...if by coincidence.
Having used them on-shore, their quoted data rate of 5 is usually 0.3.
gud enuf for an update underway...


----------



## JonEisberg

northoceanbeach said:


> Well that's the same thing you read from a lot of people. $500 isn't enough, that's survival. They're going to do it on more and really see things. Of course the people that usually say this finish with:
> 
> WHEN I leave.
> 
> The people spending $500 a month already left.


You mean, like the guy who started this thread?

)

I've seen my fair share of low budget cruisers out there, and I say Good on 'Em... However, many seem to make it only as far as each month without a budget-busting unanticipated expense will take them, then they're planted wherever for a while... sometimes, a VERY long while...

The Florida Keys, for example, is one place that's jam-packed with such _"Voyagers"_... 

Just as dogs are often left behind in mountain resorts when the Ski Bums decide it's time to move on, parts of Florida Bay are littered with $500/month Broken Dream Boats...


----------



## christian.hess

I agree however the keys are simply not an example of low budget cruising paradise...far from it

I had huge shock moment when I arrived at key west after doing a coast to coast cruise from califiornia

not only was re-entering the country one of the harshest and least welcoming events the absolute $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ wasted and spent doing ordinary things compared to other cruising grounds drove me crazy, that and all the laws dont do this dont do that etc gave me a huge shock.

in any case I think a comparable place to the keys for DERELICT boats is Sausailto, CA(richardsons bay) where you can see all types of derelict boats and outlaws,

NOT NECESSARILY 500 A MONTH BROKEN DREAMS BOATS...thats a stretch in my humble opinion...

ps. the guy who started this thread gave us a nice update a few pages back...


----------



## Andrew65

Damn! What was that bird eating!?


----------



## christian.hess

thats not that bad! jajaja go to monterey ca, or other places similar and you will have sealion crap too! and possibly sink you too

the horror!


----------



## JonEisberg

christian.hess said:


> ps. the guy who started this thread gave us a nice update a few pages back...


Well, that was my point... He hasn't gone anywhere yet, but his budget has now been ratcheted up to $700/month... 

Probably just me, but I've always been wary of such "pre-announcements" with regards to anything having to do with boats, or my cruising plans... Just seems like bad Karma, to me... Especially, blabbing too much about them on an internet sailing forum. There are just so many variables at play, so many things can change, and when things might not pan out as originally posted, some smartass like me will be there to call you on it... 

No way, for instance, would I have posted my intentions for my somewhat ambitious summer cruise in advance, I just know it would have been the Kiss of Death  If I make it back home in one piece, _then_ I'll post the debrief... Look at what's happened to Jackdale, for instance: No sooner does he announce he's off on a delivery, than the tropics start heating up on him... 

Again, it's probably just me - but my advice to any $500/month voyager is to keep your mouth shut, and your plans to yourself and those closest to you... Then just take off and Do It, and tell the world about it after it's done - or at least after you've been out there awhile...

)

I like the way a guy like Evans Starzinger does it. Keeps his cards close to his chest, all I could pry out of him about his plans for this summer was that he was planning to head "North"... Well, he wound up sailing from the Chesapeake to freakin' _GREENLAND_ and back, with no more fuss or fanfare than one might run down to the nearest convenience store for a quart of milk...


----------



## christian.hess

damn...I have to agree with that as its almost a slap on the hand

sometimes one out of dreaming blabs too much, says too much and falls in this category

but your comment strikes hard in the karma category...I would almost say its superstition too

basically go out there do it and come back and say hi

however I dont see the need for that either, or BLOGS for example or websites about your boat and your travels

Id much rather share that over a beer with friends and or other cruisers at a bar or on their boat! how weird huh?

there is a big difference in cruisers these days and its simply because of technology...even as late as the 90s and early 2000s cruisers didnt blog, or have websites or facebook or forums...or said what they were doing except maybe for a route itinerary or intended point of arrival.

you simply just went out and met people and sailed!

wish it where like that still

however like with every thing in life there is a dark side and a bright side

forums for me at least have both, and I use them to learn...however lately it seems all I do is argue...which is unfortunate

thanks for the wakeup call

happy sailing


----------



## jerryrlitton

*Re: Voyaging on $500 per month or $75K Price of Freedom*



newhaul said:


> Actually Starbucks is free again for WiFi and they are the most prolific coffee place in the states. Most major hotel chains also


Too funny, if you go forward a few pages (page 22) you will see some fine examples of free wifi in Phuket...illustrated too. 
Jerry


----------



## Andrew65

christian.hess said:


> damn...I have to agree with that as its almost a slap on the hand
> 
> sometimes one out of dreaming blabs too much, says too much and falls in this category
> 
> but your comment strikes hard in the karma category...I would almost say its superstition too
> 
> basically go out there do it and come back and say hi
> 
> however I dont see the need for that either, or BLOGS for example or websites about your boat and your travels
> &
> Id much rather share that over a beer with friends and or other cruisers at a bar or on their boat! how weird huh?
> 
> there is a big difference in cruisers these days and its simply because of technology...even as late as the 90s and early 2000s cruisers didnt blog, or have websites or facebook or forums...or said what they were doing except maybe for a route itinerary or intended point of arrival.
> 
> you simply just went out and met people and sailed!
> 
> wish it where like that still
> 
> however like with every thing in life there is a dark side and a bright side
> 
> forums for me at least have both, and I use them to learn...however lately it seems all I do is argue...which is unfortunate
> 
> thanks for the wakeup call
> 
> happy sailing


Weird? It's not weird at all.

I love people who announce "Well, the misses and I have finally outfitted boat and off for our extended cruise for x amount of months blah blah blah......":laugher

There's a flip side to that easy statement in this computer age of knowing how to find out all you want about anyone.

Come rob us because we are not home for x amount of months blah blah blah.....

Yes, sometimes it's best to keep one's mouth shut.


----------



## newhaul

*Re: Voyaging on $500 per month or $75K Price of Freedom*



jerryrlitton said:


> Too funny, if you go forward a few pages (page 22) you will see some fine examples of free wifi in Phuket...illustrated too.
> Jerry


I remember that post the last time I was in Thailand the internet thinggy didn't exist even remotely like it is now. Love the pics


----------



## Capt Len

Not everybody has to be a tight lipped ocean going recluse. Doing it and then writing a blog,book or going on the talk circuit is great .share the adventure and collect the accolades . All the fellow doers and dreamers can react accordingly. As an older ,incredibly exerienced and knowledgeable sailor of renown I can graciously nod acceptance to less experienced and more expressive dreamers of maritime time well spent. Not everybody has their act together and sometimes however trying ain't going to change that . "else what's a heaven for?' Sometimes you just want to reach out and slap someone , but a smile and a nod works too. It's that dammed hubris that pissis me off.


----------



## christian.hess

you know I thought about my post a bit and said the same, its ok to FAIL sometimes...

I know I have and know Ive said I was going to do this and that...and couldnt or whatever

thats life

however I do understand not only Jons point of view but the OPs yours, many on here, mine fwiw...

its a big or small world out there it just depends on how you approach it.

now back to voyaging on $500 to 700ish a month....jajajajajaja


----------



## mitiempo

Capt Len said:


> Not everybody has to be a tight lipped ocean going recluse. Doing it and then writing a blog,book or going on the talk circuit is great .share the adventure and collect the accolades . All the fellow doers and dreamers can react accordingly. As an older ,incredibly exerienced and knowledgeable sailor of renown I can graciously nod acceptance to less experienced and more expressive dreamers of maritime time well spent. Not everybody has their act together and sometimes however trying ain't going to change that . "else what's a heaven for?' Sometimes you just want to reach out and slap someone , but a smile and a nod works too. It's that dammed hubris that pissis me off.


Len

When are you going on the talk circuit?

And are you actually in Nanaimo as your header states?


----------



## Capt Len

Brian, you weren't much impressed with my jokes so what makes you think I'd be any good on the talk circuit? And yes, after I died a couple of times I sold Thane and am growing tomatoes in the Hub City. No longer actively dumpster diving but still do Thailand in the winter. Plan on the Classic Boat show coming up so I'm not out of dreams and appreciation of real (wood) vessels.


----------



## jerryrlitton

Capt Len said:


> Brian, you weren't much impressed with my jokes so what makes you think I'd be any good on the talk circuit? And yes, after I died a couple of times I sold Thane and am growing tomatoes in the Hub City. No longer actively dumpster diving but still do Thailand in the winter. Plan on the Classic Boat show coming up so I'm not out of dreams and appreciation of real (wood) vessels.


Len, let me know when you and yours are returning. I will be sure to drop in again and I am sure Matt will be close too. 
Jerry


----------



## Capt Len

Good to hear from you,Jerry, On the beach probably Jan & Feb.Toying with Spain or central America but you know how Koh Jum gets in your blood. Are you sailing there yet?


----------



## jerryrlitton

Hola Len, no not yet. I am presently in Nigeria dodging the boko haram and Ebola. Matt is helping me look for a boat in that area. It will be good to see you all again ASAP my friend. 
Jerry


----------



## mitiempo

Capt Len said:


> Brian, you weren't much impressed with my jokes so what makes you think I'd be any good on the talk circuit?


I'm sure you would have some good stories to tell.

Some of your jokes were pretty good.


----------



## aeventyr60

christian.hess said:


> you know I thought about my post a bit and said the same, its ok to FAIL sometimes...
> 
> I know I have and know Ive said I was going to do this and that...and couldnt or whatever
> 
> thats life
> 
> however I do understand not only Jons point of view but the OPs yours, many on here, mine fwiw...
> 
> its a big or small world out there it just depends on how you approach it.
> 
> now back to voyaging on $500 to 700ish a month....jajajajajaja


You go bro. Really tough out here in Thailand. Glad I didn't stick around for the gold watch. Lazy tropical days in paradise. Weekend beer can racing on a Swan, yoga in the mornings, Thai massage and plenty of free wifi...Failure is so glorious, guess I'll go grab the brass ring this afternoon on the merry go round of life afloat.


----------



## Andrew65

aeventyr60 said:


> You go bro. Really tough out here in Thailand. Glad I didn't stick around for the gold watch. Lazy tropical days in paradise. Weekend beer can racing on a Swan, yoga in the mornings, Thai massage and plenty of free wifi...Failure is so glorious, guess I'll go grab the brass ring this afternoon on the merry go round of life afloat.


It sounds like it painfully sucks to be you...:laugher


----------



## mrhoneydew

FWIW, barefoot navigator (the OP) isn't out voyaging. It's precisely BECAUSE he's tied to a dock that his budget went up to $700/mo. And there is this pervasive myth that keeps popping up in this thread that people who aspire to voyage on $500/mo are broke and scraping by with the next catastrophic repair lurking around the next corner to sink them financially. Absolutely those people exist. But I, for one, don't intend to be one of them. The notion of voyaging in a frugal way and gaining ideas on this thread and through other reading/discussion to facilitate that end is an effort to extend being out there as long as possible. Not to mention living low impact and simply. Realizing that I don't require a lot of "stuff" to thoroughly enjoy life.


----------



## christian.hess

hell yeah!


----------



## newhaul

50k in the bank and at 500 a month = about ten years not counting interest and a couple hrs a month for me means lots more time out.


----------



## northoceanbeach

I'm not reading the thoughts on the OP right, is he looked down upon, or up to. It keeps being mentioned he's tied to a dock.

I also don't understand the last comment, a couple hrs a month equals a lot more time out, do you mean if you work a couple hours a month and have 50k saved to begin with, you could cruise almost indefinitely?


----------



## christian.hess

barefoot checked in a few weeks ago and updated us saying that for an extra $200 a month or so he was now in a dock but enjoying the good life if you will

however he is still out there in the traditional sense and still living aboard.

the last comment I think means that he is still working a bit to stay out there longer when that time comes before running out of money or getting ss...

just guessing

anywhoo

safe sailing guys

ps. wish I could be out there sailing too...big change in our lives coming...


----------



## northoceanbeach

I hingout with barefoot many nights at the end of my summer. We talked about what kind of boat I should get, but he has different views on them than I do.

What changes? Are you not out sailing? Do you live on land? You're in El Salvador.


----------



## christian.hess

were moving at the end of the year...thats cool you talked with barefoot!

boat stays here though...


----------



## northoceanbeach

Moving to a different country? Are you keeping the boat?


----------



## christian.hess

northoceanbeach said:


> Moving to a different country? Are you keeping the boat?


yes, we are moving to georgia...

yes keeping the boat

If your interested you can charter it and get a taste for an islander 36...

im cheap

however its not yo cup o tea


----------



## newhaul

I am a shipwright I charge fifty aan hour so ten hrs a month is 500 and I carry my tools of trade with me where ever I go I will grade new dock lines for ppl for twenty five a line they supply the lines. And yes that's what I meant by a couple hrs work keeps me out of the rat race and happy.


----------



## newhaul

christian.hess said:


> yes, we are moving to georgia...
> 
> yes keeping the boat
> 
> If your interested you can charter it and get a taste for an islander 36...
> 
> im cheap
> 
> however its not yo cup o tea


Thread jack
Why Georgia and how's the FAM these days haven't beard much on the kiddos lately .

Jack done


----------



## northoceanbeach

Oh, that's a great way to pay for your cruise, I was thinking about getting an air compressor again and do walk by bottom cleanings.

Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa.....hang on now. Georgia. Wtf is going on here, we are talking about California and you're moving to Georgia? What like Atlanta? Are you from Georgia?


----------



## christian.hess

newhaul said:


> Thread jack
> Why Georgia and how's the FAM these days haven't beard much on the kiddos lately .
> 
> Jack done


I think the 500 thread is a sailors and active and non active cruisers thread so I wouldnt consider it a hijack at all...hope the mods dont either

this thread is the one real thread where many of us have shared personal experiences and such so this can be considered so

we are moving as a familiy to georgia, we need a change, and my best friend has lived there since his college days...I lived there briefly back in 2002 or so.

its quaint, small peacefull town where we are going, something which cannot be said about san salvador and the country in general down here...lately.

there is much extorsion, corruption, gangs, violence, traffic, all things that are bad with cities and land life in general, etc..

while I know this isnt the best way to attract tourism Ive done my share of promoting my country and people, providing jobs, food tourism, etc so I can vent a bit, and take this liberty.

in any case the boat will be down here, peacefully waiting for when I ever get enough money to convince the wife that the cruising life is the good life, and move aboard...so we are kind of in the prepping of that stages, if you will...

my goal is to be out on the water when the kid is 3 or 4 years old.

dont know if it will be this boat or another but for now thats my plan(s)

tis life

change is the only constant

hope all is well with you and others here, I always wish the best.

peace
edit. finally went on my maiden sail, here is the boat anchored off the estuary entrance in costa del sol


----------



## copacabana

Christian, all the best for you and the family in your new life in Georgia. What are you going to do with the restaurant and boat?

(thread drift, but in a nice direction!)


----------



## christian.hess

copacabana said:


> Christian, all the best for you and the family in your new life in Georgia. What are you going to do with the restaurant and boat?
> 
> (thread drift, but in a nice direction!)


Van morrison has a special place in my music library in my head...

the restaurant is for sale very cheap, foreigners welcome

I cant bring myself to sell the boat however after all the work we have done and still need to do...plus its in a bare bones 500 a month state and not appealing to most cruisers idea of an offshore boat these days

think of the boat as an engineless spartan racer cruiser..jajaja

however it does come with a lot of gear, including a sayes rig, davits, benmar autopilot, ssb etc...

anywhoo

obrigado novamente copa


----------



## travlin-easy

I've followed this thread since it began, and for the most part, the vast majority of the cruisers that have posted sincerely believe that the $500 figure is not realistic. And for the most part, I agree. However, most of those individuals are relatively young, under 50 years of age, and they tend to want more materialistic items than us older folks. 

That said, the $500 figure would easily cover food and some minor repair parts if the captain/owner had the capabilities to perform the labor and install the necessary parts. However, you must also have a substantial cruising kitty to cover the things that are not anticipated, particularly health issues and major breakdowns. A single visit to a clinic for a minor sinus infection could end up costing you hundreds of dollars above and beyond what your normal insurance would cover. Blow an engine and you'll need an extra $5,000 or more in that kitty to cover the cost of repairs, and that's for a reconditioned engine and installation.

The bottom line is, you need some contingency money set aside - and from my perspective, it should be at least two years of normal operating expenses. Without that cushion, you could end up in a heap of trouble when that unforeseen, catastrophic event occurs.

Stay well my friends,

Gary


----------



## northoceanbeach

That's why I fear inboards. Otherwise what you say sounds about right, of course I don't know how much has been said on this thread about how dependent it is upon what country you are in, or if $500 is like an average for a world cruise.


----------



## newhaul

northoceanbeach said:


> That's why I fear inboards. Otherwise what you say sounds about right, of course I don't know how much has been said on this thread about how dependent it is upon what country you are in, or if $500 is like an average for a world cruise.


The 500 is an idea not a rule a lil over or under is fine it has given us a starting point for many months and and well over 2k posts its one of the best and longest lasting posts on here that we all have posted on it


----------



## Capt Len

Reasonably equipped vessels are cheaper now than ever .I had my fill of crewing in Med.Atlantic and Carib back in the '60's and when I decided on a cruising life style I built here in the finest area of sailing and lifestyle in the world.cost ,12 grand and ready to go offshore again. Decided this is where it's at. Never at a loss for opportunities to make a buck with my talents to make and fix. Feeding self and friends for the last 35 yrs has been fun and easy. Big money gigs are always coming up for anyone with the snap to grab. The opportunities today are so phenomenal it makes me wish I could start over and do it again Even when I picked up beer bottles, I never counted or cared. $500/m?? that's more than you need unless you have no talent and refuse to try the adventure of living for fear of unknown future.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Just catching up here. Am anchored off Pelee Island in Lake Erie. Have been travelling for 44 days now. Been anchored out most of the time, including in the middle of Lake St. Clair (weird, and kinda surreal). We've spent some time at docks, including two engine issues (a fuel leak in the pressure pump, and an oil leak). These two repairs ate one $500/month chunk, but the rest of the time has cost far less. I agree with Gary that you gotta have a decent kitty to deal with the unexpected, but I continue to be convinced $500/month is easy as long as you stay away from urban seduction. 

... gotta go refill my drink now. Life is tough ;-)


Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## mrhoneydew

Mike... you are my current idol.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Christian, I hope the move is all for the best. I was looking forward to your restaurant meal, but Georgia is even closer. I might make it there in three or four years instead of the five or six for San Salvador. Hope the move goes well, and the boat gets its Master soon. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## travlin-easy

Be careful out there, Mike - hope to see you next summer.

Gary


----------



## elkinjohn

been reading since post number one... hope this fits in somewhere.... there are instructions for building a dryer in "sailing the farm." also do you guys ever use TVP? it comes in many flavors pepperoni, beef chicken, sausage, doesn't need refrigeration, and reconstitutes with water...


----------



## elkinjohn

hi guys
like I said. I have been reading this thread since #1 and am on page 56 or so I think... I am a newbie here on sailnet. Hope i haven't made too many mistakes. I am really interested in the budget liveaboard lifestyle. Currently living in Cebu Philippines, many think the cruising lifestyle would be cheap here... and it probably is. 
The thing is... I don't have a boat. i had a little 16' outrigger, but yolanda ate it. In the states it seems you can buy a cheap sailboat for $5000. But here they are few and far between. and the ones here are expensive... any advice.
thanks in advance
john


----------



## MikeOReilly

elkinjohn said:


> been reading since post number one... hope this fits in somewhere.... there are instructions for building a dryer in "sailing the farm." also do you guys ever use TVP? it comes in many flavors pepperoni, beef chicken, sausage, doesn't need refrigeration, and reconstitutes with water...


Welcome to the chat Elkin. I must say, you've got a lot of stamina to read through this entire thread. Tenacity, with a bit of craziness thrown in ... you sound ready for cruising ;-)

Can't comment on your boat dilemma, but I do use dried food on board. We have a large home-built dehydrator that I've been using for decades to dry food. I haven't dried anything on the boat yet, but will likely build or buy a small one soon. I've also been building a solar dryer based on the one in Sailing the Farm. I am about 3/4 finished, but it will have to wait until winter now.

Dried food is great. Dried and sealed properly, it will last for years. Stores in a fraction of the space, and tastes almost as good as fresh once reconstituted. Just had some dried mushrooms and eggplant in an omelette. Yum.

I don't know what TVP is. I dry some meats, and we usually take a supply of smoked dry sausage that doesn't need refrigeration.

Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## CaptnBry

"Active Investing" may need a definition in this context.
To me "active" is something I can't leave for a month without worry.
Others may define it as Day Trading, FOREX, of other aggressive strategies.

I've always focused on Income strategies, which are inherently longer term investments.
To meet cash flow needs of food through plane fares in priorities, and to distribute risk, I use a range of methods with income/risk balanced to the GOAL of the cash flow, not simply "make money". 
So on a bad year, stocks do down, yet income vehicles gain value, I don't fly-back for a party that year, and the boat floats on...then roll to new allocations as the next Market wave rolls in....

A Sailors analogy; The Markets, like the Ocean, have currents, waves, ripples, Highs , Lows, storms, and squalls. To navigate, one must go along with Her moods and respect Her indifference to yourself.
Fortunately, the Sea is at least honest. To get a feel for the types that run the Markets, Wiki John Law.


----------



## CaptnBry

elkinjohn said:


> hi guys
> like I said. I have been reading this thread since #1 and am on page 56 or so I think... I am a newbie here on sailnet. Hope i haven't made too many mistakes. I am really interested in the budget liveaboard lifestyle. Currently living in Cebu Philippines, many think the cruising lifestyle would be cheap here... and it probably is.
> The thing is... I don't have a boat. i had a little 16' outrigger, but yolanda ate it. In the states it seems you can buy a cheap sailboat for $5000. But here they are few and far between. and the ones here are expensive... any advice.
> thanks in advance
> john


Hello Elkinjohn,

In the Philippines, Nigel Roberts builds catamarans. He may be a resource for you to build or find what you're looking for in a boat.
Nigel is usually at the Why Not bar on the promenade in Dumaguete M-W-F from about 10am-2pm, you can hook up there and talk. He mostly builds sailing catamarans but does other types from time to time . Obviously he has excellent connections in your country, skills, and suppliers to run that business.

I have heard that its VERY expensive to import a boat from the US to PI. The "tax is almost as much as the boat" sounded like a bad deal to me. I have been to Baguio and would consider retiring somewhere amongst the beautiful islands and people.. but mt boat & I are inseparable....

Good luck on your searches and Cheers!
CaptnBry...


----------



## newhaul

Mike TVP is textured vegetable protein imitation meat made from soy I s actually pretty good and the freeze dried stuff has an awesom shelf life. Here is a definition and a few recipes What Is Textured Vegetable Protein? TVP Recipes. a lot of time it is used with real meat to streach it


----------



## travlin-easy

Having sampled TVP a couple times, I'll stick with real meat and fish. There are lots of TVP products available in the local supermarkets now, most of which taste a lot like flavored sawdust to me. Guess I must be spoiled from eating real meat and fish. 

Good luck,

Gary


----------



## UnionPacific

Canned chicken anyone?
We found this at walmart for about $0.78 each can. I didnt like it, but the wife who is less picky about food enjoyed it.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Ok, I know the stuff, although I've never seen the freeze dried versions. Might be worth a look if it lasts and is cheap. I am often amused though that non-meat eaters will go through such effort to make their veggie stuff look and taste like meat. Who's funnier than humans, eh?


Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## UnionPacific

MikeOReilly said:


> Ok, I know the stuff, although I've never seen the freeze dried versions. Might be worth a look if it lasts and is cheap. I am often amused though that non-meat eaters will go through such effort to make their veggie stuff look and taste like meat. Who's funnier than humans, eh?
> 
> Why go fast, when you can go slow


not freeze dried, I imagine they preserve it like spam.


----------



## Andrew65

MikeOReilly said:


> Ok, I know the stuff, although I've never seen the freeze dried versions. Might be worth a look if it lasts and is cheap. I am often amused though that non-meat eaters will go through such effort to make their veggie stuff look and taste like meat. Who's funnier than humans, eh?
> 
> Why go fast, when you can go slow


It's a slight deviation for us deviants, but MIKEMCKEE over on the joke-of-the-day thread is a hard act to follow when looking for funnier than humans. :laugher:laugher


----------



## mrhoneydew

UnionPacific said:


> not freeze dried, I imagine they preserve it like spam.


As with most things... the answer is just a google search away. I'm not vegetarian, by the way. Though the economics and effects of commercial meat/fish production are making me think about it. Anybody seen 'Mission Blue?' Not to go too far off topic, but as sailors and voyagers the health of the oceans is something that hits super close to home.

http://www.motherearthproducts.com/TVP-Textured-Vegetable-Protein-1599/


----------



## newhaul

Here ya go freeze dried tvp Meats


----------



## elkinjohn

MikeOReilly said:


> Welcome to the chat Elkin. I must say, you've got a lot of stamina to read through this entire thread. Tenacity, with a bit of craziness thrown in ... you sound ready for cruising ;-)
> 
> Can't comment on your boat dilemma, but I do use dried food on board. We have a large home-built dehydrator that I've been using for decades to dry food. I haven't dried anything on the boat yet, but will likely build or buy a small one soon. I've also been building a solar dryer based on the one in Sailing the Farm. I am about 3/4 finished, but it will have to wait until winter now.
> 
> Dried food is great. Dried and sealed properly, it will last for years. Stores in a fraction of the space, and tastes almost as good as fresh once reconstituted. Just had some dried mushrooms and eggplant in an omelette. Yum.
> 
> I don't know what TVP is. I dry some meats, and we usually take a supply of smoked dry sausage that doesn't need refrigeration.
> 
> Why go fast, when you can go slow


Thanks for the good word Mike.
Yes, that "sailing the farm" book has so many good ideas. Such a shame what happened to the author. I wonder what he could have contributed had he been able to stay with it.
Yeah, people are making TVP out of "pulses" other than soybeans now. the wheat is pretty good. my wife and I got a dryer as a gift once... we made banana chips, and all sorts of stuff. 
There is a lot of dried fish here in the philippines. ppl just leave it out in the sun... I also have done some sprouting... gives you some fresh greens on board... One crazy idea I keep having... people eat barnacles in portugal. 
But most cruisers use bottom paint that renders them poisonous. Could you just change your paint and have a new protein source? hehehe


----------



## elkinjohn

CaptnBry said:


> Hello Elkinjohn,
> 
> In the Philippines, Nigel Roberts builds catamarans. He may be a resource for you to build or find what you're looking for in a boat.
> Nigel is usually at the Why Not bar on the promenade in Dumaguete M-W-F from about 10am-2pm, you can hook up there and talk. He mostly builds sailing catamarans but does other types from time to time . Obviously he has excellent connections in your country, skills, and suppliers to run that business.
> 
> I have heard that its VERY expensive to import a boat from the US to PI. The "tax is almost as much as the boat" sounded like a bad deal to me. I have been to Baguio and would consider retiring somewhere amongst the beautiful islands and people.. but mt boat & I are inseparable....
> 
> Good luck on your searches and Cheers!
> CaptnBry...


captn
you know, I have met Nigel, he "owns" a resort down on Tambobo bay. His cats cost about 40k<. They do have a small yacht down there for sale, I think 12.5k.
I should check that out. I love the people of the Philippines, and it is such a beautiful country. But the government here does not make it easy. There is the expense to import a boat. 
To legally build your own boat you have to have a MARINA license. And they just past a law that foreigners can't even register a boat here. They pass all these laws in Manila. 
Then it seems like the rest of the country ignores them. Except if they can find a way to use them to exhort money from foreigner's. hehehe. 
But if i understand Nigel correctly. You can go online and register a boat with the US Coast Guard, anywhere in the world.


----------



## northoceanbeach

mrhoneydew said:


> As with most things... the answer is just a google search away. I'm not vegetarian, by the way. Though the economics and effects of commercial meat/fish production are making me think about it. Anybody seen 'Mission Blue?' Not to go too far off topic, but as sailors and voyagers the health of the oceans is something that hits super close to home.
> 
> TVP, Textured Vegetable Protein, Meat Replacer or Extender | Mother Earth Products, TVP and Meat Substitutes


Go for it, it's easy. I think people just bury their heads in the sand, because how can you care about the planet and eat filth that they slaughtered the planet to produce? In the 1990's alone they cut and burnt the rainforest in Brazil the size of Spain. So drive your hybrid to your barbecue or whatever...the people that seem to have proclaimed to me they could never give up meat seem to be pretty fat. How do you take that seriously? I mean, if you look like a triathlete or whatever and you're saying how meat is part of your healthy diet, at least that's one thing....


----------



## travlin-easy

Michael Phelps eats lots of meat! 










Cheers,

Gary


----------



## mrhoneydew

Again... I don't really care to go too far off topic. That said, I am not against eating meat. I just think we could think a bit more about where it comes from, the associated costs (not solely $), and impacts to health. Study after study shows that humans for the most part don't need near the amount of meat we consume and that doing so anyway is at a tremendous cost to health.


----------



## mrhoneydew

And Gary, I'm going to hazard a guess that you don't have the physique of Michael Phelps.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Sorry... I didn't mean to kick off a scrap about meat eating. I fully agree meat production is one of the banes of our "civilized" world. It's a huge contributor to the problems we all face. And yes, going cruising is a way to limit our impacts (although it can also lead to greater impacts). 

I'm an equal opportunity killer. I eat plants as happily as animals, but I try to be conscious of the source of all my food. Buying a tomato from South Africa in my home in Northern Ontario is simple insanity. 

Actually, my diet tends to shift to veggie the longer we're out. Love beans and rice!


Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## killarney_sailor

mrhoneydew said:


> And Gary, I'm going to hazard a guess that you don't have the physique of Michael Phelps.


I thought they just photo-shopped Phelps head onto Gary's body - but I could be mistaken.


----------



## newhaul

MikeOReilly said:


> Sorry... I didn't mean to kick off a scrap about meat eating. I fully agree meat production is one of the banes of our "civilized" world. It's a huge contributor to the problems we all face. And yes, going cruising is a way to limit our impacts (although it can also lead to greater impacts).
> 
> I'm an equal opportunity killer. I eat plants as happily as animals, but I try to be conscious of the source of all my food. Buying a tomato from South Africa in my home in Northern Ontario is simple insanity.
> 
> Actually, my diet tends to shift to veggie the longer we're out. Love beans and rice!
> 
> Why go fast, when you can go slow


they don't call humans omnivores for nothing. :laugher:laugher


----------



## northoceanbeach

They call them omnivores but they also lived in caves and scavenged leftovers and had a life expectancy of about thirty.


----------



## christian.hess

allright guys, you all win!

now lets talk about what oil is best?

politics, religion?

oh what about the best tuna?

jajajajaja

thatll get us all riled up!!!


----------



## northoceanbeach

We can talk about what to eat on a budget while cruising because meat or no I suck at this. I hate cooking on the boat, but for me it's one of the biggest costs. To get close to $500 a month, which I haven't hit I don't think, you've got to be frugal with food. Especially provisioning. I can't seem to do a good job stocking up on staples. I like too many perishables and rarely a couple days goes by where I'm not at the store or getting ready made food. What do $500 a month cruisers do for food? What would e an example of one day?


----------



## newhaul

christian.hess said:


> allright guys, you all win!
> 
> now lets talk about what oil is best?
> 
> politics, religion?
> 
> oh what about the best tuna?
> 
> jajajajaja
> 
> thatll get us all riled up!!!


Best oil the one that does the job cheapest, politics never with friends and religion whatever makes you happiest as far as tuna well there ya go now that will really fire up the debate personally I love the one I just landed don't matter where I am and don't have to be tuna per say just good fresh fish that I didn't have to pay for. Rotflmao :laugher:laugher


----------



## killarney_sailor

People are talking about provisioning as if it were one thing. Every place you go it is a different set of parameters - what is available, what are costs like, are there new things for sale that you want to try (have little choice in some places), what are your bargaining skills like in Spanish, how about in Indonesian, how do you get to the places where food is sold/sold cheaply - can you walk (how do you carry it all) is it a cab, do you need to rent a car? Some places are great for staples (Panama) and others terrific for stuff in the local market - in Ecuador limes were 70 for $1 and you could buy lovely strawberries grown in the mountains + plus there were shrimp farms. In some places (Papeete) you can get an incredible range of things (better than in North America) but it is really expensive. In some places almost everything is really expensive ($17 for 2 litres of ice cream).

Part of the fun is figuring this all out but it makes little sense to sit at a computer in North America and try to plan and budget.


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## christian.hess

newhaul said:


> Best oil the one that does the job cheapest, politics never with friends and religion whatever makes you happiest as far as tuna well there ya go now that will really fire up the debate personally I love the one I just landed don't matter where I am and don't have to be tuna per say just good fresh fish that I didn't have to pay for. Rotflmao :laugher:laugher


exactly...

just thought it be fun to get this thread all riled up again...

jajajja


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## Rhapsody-NS27

northoceanbeach said:


> What would be an example of one day?


Chuck and Laura on SV Lealea have a page on their site with some tips for the Galley. Also some videos on their Youtube channel.

Cruising Lealea The Galley


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## christian.hess

killarney_sailor said:


> people are talking about provisioning as if it were one thing. Every place you go it is a different set of parameters - what is available, what are costs like, are there new things for sale that you want to try (have little choice in some places), what are your bargaining skills like in spanish, how about in indonesian, how do you get to the places where food is sold/sold cheaply - can you walk (how do you carry it all) is it a cab, do you need to rent a car? Some places are great for staples (panama) and others terrific for stuff in the local market - in ecuador limes were 70 for $1 and you could buy lovely strawberries grown in the mountains + plus there were shrimp farms. In some places (papeete) you can get an incredible range of things (better than in north america) but it is really expensive. In some places almost everything is really expensive ($17 for 2 litres of ice cream).
> 
> *part of the fun is figuring this all out but it makes little sense to sit at a computer in north america and try to plan and budget.*


bingo:d


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## christian.hess

northoceanbeach said:


> We can talk about what to eat on a budget while cruising because meat or no I suck at this. I hate cooking on the boat, but for me it's one of the biggest costs. To get close to $500 a month, which I haven't hit I don't think, you've got to be frugal with food. Especially provisioning. I can't seem to do a good job stocking up on staples. I like too many perishables and rarely a couple days goes by where I'm not at the store or getting ready made food. What do $500 a month cruisers do for food? What would e an example of one day?


I know this thread is loooooooooooooooooooooooooong but there has been many a discussion about food(tuna included) and ideas by great guys like mike, travlin and others on drying foods, fish etc

whats something I did all the time while cruising?

tuna and onions(atun encebollado) using onions, tumeric, spices and a lot of onions...goes great with a fresh caught tuna...its quick to make since tuna is fast cooking and onions in slices cooks equally fast too...a dash of wine or water and you got sauce

some quick rice or pasta and your done

1 day.

here goes:
*6am *shift is breakfast shift and that includes the most important part COFFEE
usually serve some biscuits and jam(jam lasts forever on a boat) and room temp butter

if one of us felt dandy, we would bake some cookies and or flat bread for a few days.

coffee is made on an italian stove top espresso, served with condensed milk or with powdered milk...nice and creamy

*lunch* if we hooked something it was fish a thousand ways

some of our faves are:
tuna and ribbons cacerole using dried chilies...and pimenton
tuna and onions
sahsimi and soy
tuna stew with potatoes, pimenton(paprika) onions chillies etc with rice
mahi in garlic sauce
wahoo in garlic sauce
jack or whatever else like mackerel in tomato sauce or even bbq if it was nice weather.

afternoon, biscuits and or some sort of cookie or snack...

5-6pm was dinner and usually that meant eatingleftovers from lunch,or making sandwiches or wraps with what was left and dressing them up

if we got tired of fish then it was time to open the stores
clams, sausages, chorizo, dried foods like jerky or cured pork, beans, been stew, we even made rice dishes like paella on the stove every once in a while

the sky is the limit

peace


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## Capt Len

It was always a point of honour to have income more than outgo. Don't have to be neurotic about it but that gives a certain slack when stuff happens (and it will) Forty years of living aboard with that attitude has left me pretty fixed and little time to benefit from my frugality (although it was fun). May buy a new truck but suggest you don't hesitate .Spend the 500 and see how far you get. Sail like the devil is behind you and don't look back.


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## aeventyr60

northoceanbeach said:


> We can talk about what to eat on a budget while cruising because meat or no I suck at this. I hate cooking on the boat, but for me it's one of the biggest costs. To get close to $500 a month, which I haven't hit I don't think, you've got to be frugal with food. Especially provisioning. I can't seem to do a good job stocking up on staples. I like too many perishables and rarely a couple days goes by where I'm not at the store or getting ready made food. What do $500 a month cruisers do for food? What would e an example of one day?


First you get out of the 1st world. Then shop at the local markets. Food costs here are a song.

AM-fruit, yogurt, coffe toast. Pancakes. Bacon & Eggs.

Lunch- fruit, cheese, tuna, sandwich from leftover dinner. crackers, olives, sliced tomato, cucumbers, etc

Dinner-Grilled fish, shrimp crab. Been roastingting big hunks of pork on the grill lately. Wrap a snapper in a banana leaf and put it on the bbg for about 15 minutes.

I's about as cheap to eat out as it is to cook in in Thailand. So if it is too hot we eat out. $1.50 to 2.00 gets you a street vendor meal. 3 bucks for a sit down restaurant Phad Thai.

Endless options to eat well afloat.

Dinner


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## northoceanbeach

How do you keep all these leftovers cool? If you don't have refrigeration an just an ice box? I'm either tied to civilization for perishables or eating camping food but it's boring. I know people cruise without refrigeration. That Tina is good fresh caught but how often does that happen and what does it look loke the next day?


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## MikeOReilly

Food ... one of my favourite topics. First off it goes without saying, but in most places (Thailand not included) you have to cook on board to achieve the frugal lifestyle. So learn to cook, and have good cooking tools. Get a decent set of pots/pans, spoons, spatulas, mixing bowls, etc. And whatever your cooker is, make sure it works well. 

KS, Christian and the others are experienced in distant travels. So far, the farthest I've got is Souther Ontario (which seems like a completely different world to me!), but so far we've kept food costs down by sticking to inexpensive locally grown veggies (potatoes, onions, various root veggies, beans, celery, apples, cabbage, etc), along with cheap canned stuff like corn, peas, tomatoes, etc). Meats have mostly been canned stuff, along with dried sausages (locally sourced). Pasta, rice, flour and various grains and nuts. We carry lots of viniguars and sauces (bean, soy, mustards, etc), and of course wine. Combine with spices (we grow basil, celantro, parsley, thyme, and carry lots of dried) you can make any sort of sauce you want. What else... I sprout along the way, which provides a constant source of fresh yummy greens. 

Cooking often involves me wondering around, looking at what needs to be eaten, and then playing with various canned/dried foods to see what clicks. I'm not a chef like Christian, but I love to cook. I've learned that with enough of the right spices you can make anything taste good. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## christian.hess

northoceanbeach said:


> How do you keep all these leftovers cool? If you don't have refrigeration an just an ice box? I'm either tied to civilization for perishables or eating camping food but it's boring. I know people cruise without refrigeration. That Tina is good fresh caught but how often does that happen and what does it look loke the next day?


I cruised on a spanish boat that for 1/2 round world trip with them we needed opted no refrigeration...the first trip with them they used those rv coolers that was installed under the chart table seat.

leftovers YOU EAT!

depends how you are cruising, are you hopping down the coast or leaving for hawaii NOW?


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## christian.hess

northoceanbeach said:


> How do you keep all these leftovers cool? If you don't have refrigeration an just an ice box? I'm either tied to civilization for perishables or eating camping food but it's boring. I know people cruise without refrigeration. That Tina is good fresh caught but how often does that happen and what does it look loke the next day?


way back in this thread I also posted a dried tuna recipe called mojama you can make if you are out to sea 2 weeks or more...

mike and others posted ways to dry fruits, others posted jerky recipes etc

the info is all in this thread bud! jajajaaj:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher


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## christian.hess

aeventyr60 said:


> First you get out of the 1st world. Then shop at the local markets. Food costs here are a song.
> 
> AM-fruit, yogurt, coffe toast. Pancakes. Bacon & Eggs.
> 
> Lunch- fruit, cheese, tuna, sandwich from leftover dinner. crackers, olives, sliced tomato, cucumbers, etc
> 
> Dinner-Grilled fish, shrimp crab. Been roastingting big hunks of pork on the grill lately. Wrap a snapper in a banana leaf and put it on the bbg for about 15 minutes.
> 
> I's about as cheap to eat out as it is to cook in in Thailand. So if it is too hot we eat out. $1.50 to 2.00 gets you a street vendor meal. 3 bucks for a sit down restaurant Phad Thai.
> 
> Endless options to eat well afloat.
> 
> Dinner


nice!

one thing we loved to do in thailand and with leftovers from indonesia and pacific islands was to make quick ramen(forget the indonesian, malay name for these soups) but basically

thinly sliced tuna over noodles and a quick stock using soy, bouillon and greens like chives and or sporuts made for a really quick and healthy soup snack...

*ramen* all we used was the noodles not the msg and all that jazz! jajaja

we did use the packets of chilii oil and flakes
also if in asia we loved *dry shrimp*...you can also make it yourself.

it adds an awesome flavour to the soup

and lastly if you have the $$ *bonito flakes* in vaccum sealed bags is the easiest and fastest way to make a stock...just add some to water with some soy and chili and aromatics and then add your protein...

also, it works awesome(soup) with leftover roast chicken you buy on the streets

in thailand I remember our first day out from phuket towards madlives we made a nice soup(very light) to be easy on the stomach as usually all of us would not be very hungry our first day out...after that first night we were in ocean crossing mode and game on!

peace


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## aeventyr60

Get a small pressure cooker. The 2.5 liter size works really well for us. We also have a giant one we use for canning.


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## newhaul

On food tonight is fresh salmon and leftover mac and cheese and flat bread fresh pears for dessert gotta love late Summer in the pnw


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## newhaul

And just for Don0190 just because he wants numbers the above meal cost about two bucks includes half the cost of the left overs and estimated amount of fuel to cook the food and serves 4 people so about $.50 per person


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## newhaul

Well leftover salmon so patae and crackers for lunch tomorrow wish I could post pictures but this tablet won't I can email them but can't post them don't know why.


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## christian.hess

dont feed the trolls newhaul, please!


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## barefootnavigator

Year 8 of living aboard and sailing small simple boats. There are two of us now and the budget is $750. We have cut out a few things like cream and sugar but now can afford better coffee. We eat meat about two times a week, go out once a month and take half our showers in the cockpit. I thought adding a plus one into my life would make it unbelievably more expensive but it didn't, in fact i'm now more or less retired. We make 90% of our living by writing and odd jobs but because there are two of us we have cut so far back on work that its actually fun now. In November when we return to our winter slip our costs will drop back to $500.00 per month. I've been a dock queen most of the summer due to a sick dog but a new boat in coming that will make life more tolerable for her. I've been solo for so long I had forgotten how easy life is when there are two of you. I can't imagine any life easier or more fun than what we have and now that there are 4 hands boat maintenance is a dream. Moving to a larger boat is one that is scary but sometimes its what you have to to to keep the wheels moving. Our budget on the new boat will increase dramatically but still be easily attainable. When we set off again in the spring we are planning a budget 0f $500 per month but the new boat will be loaded down with as much as we can carry so again we will live quite well on a much larger boat and a kinda sorta $500 per month budget. We currently earn $9000 per year, bout $4500 each that means i have to accept about a dozen writing assignments per year or work one month banging nails...


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## Capt Len

Thirty years of cruising Salish Sea and points north with a self supporting life style of a bit of paid work (hard to avoid offers of real cash) and canning surplus salmon for trade for veggies or hauling clams . A few deliveries way south to reaffirm I'm in the right part of the world . Having guests aboard? A quick trip to a demo site and a sale of a few buckets of metal fitting traded for a bucket of Colonel Sanders best .Who needs to keep track?.


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## mrhoneydew

Capt Len said:


> Thirty years of cruising Salish Sea and points north with a self supporting life style of a bit of paid work (hard to avoid offers of real cash) and canning surplus salmon for trade for veggies or hauling clams . A few deliveries way south to reaffirm I'm in the right part of the world . Having guests aboard? A quick trip to a demo site and a sale of a few buckets of metal fitting traded for a bucket of Colonel Sanders best .Who needs to keep track?.


Hey Capt Len... I am in Seattle at the moment with my sights set on not being in Seattle come late Fall. Was thinking about trading up to a little bit larger boat, but lately have been putting more thought into the "Go small. Go now." philosophy (who needs to be able to actually stand upright down below anyway?). I'll likely land in Port Townsend, if not then Oak Harbor, Anacortes, the San Juans... somewhere. Anyway, to get to the point... in 30 years would you say it has gotten considerably more difficult to get by? Increased regulations, less fish stocks over all, inflated prices for necessities you pretty much have to buy... that sort of thing. Next Spring I plan to head up the inside passage. Perhaps to Alaska, but if not then at least as far North as the Haida Gwaii. The idea was then by Fall to head for Mexico and beyond. But lately I have been thinking I really haven't explored the Salish Sea. Seems pretty dumb to leave such a premier cruising ground without hanging out for a bit. (I am just not a fan of being cold.) It's amazing to me that you have been able to do it for that long! Are you tied to a dock or on the ball?


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## Capt Len

Mr. I'm on shore leave since I sold the Thane,(heart virus) so I'm reminiscing about a time somewhat changed. Real cash jobs are still available up the coast for someone with talent and food is still free for the catching. Anchor is still free but salmon farms get in the way. (on the other hand they can be your source of income. Logging camps still need winter caretakers as do many big money residences. Marinas in town cost big time but it's a cash in/cash out balance. The joys of scrap collecting are fading .I got into oil stuff in the Arctic and then tourism in Victoria. Made a bundle and spent the last 19 winters in Thailand .Still more than possible to do it but it doesn't happen overnight So if you catch a salmon ,trade you some tomatoes? . I'm in Naniamo.


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## barefootnavigator

I don't mean to answer for Len but IMHO it has gotten much cheaper and easier. Boats are cheeper and much more redly available, moorage is dirt cheap, money is easier to earn. Boat gear is much cheaper and easier to find and its also much more reliable. Food is cheaper, there are also plenty of fish in the sea. last year I brought 10 cases of cheap wine and bartered it for salmon, crab and halibut all summer long, 350 bucks worth of wine minus what I drank for an almost unlimited supply of protein. With modern navigation cruising is a breeze but in this area you really don't need much more than a cheap chart book to get by with a little common sense. Yesterday there was a 390' 4 billion dollar yacht right next to me, we shared the same sunrise and sunset but since I didn't once see anyone on deck I have to assume we were having much more fun. There is an almost endless supply of food to be foraged in the Salish and you can hunt or fish year round if thats your thing. The key to surviving up here on a budget is a good sailing boat with great sails, there is always enough wind regardless of what the Marconi Trawler captains tell you.


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## mrhoneydew

barefootnavigator said:


> I don't mean to answer for Len but IMHO it has gotten much cheaper and easier. Boats are cheeper and much more redly available, moorage is dirt cheap, money is easier to earn. Boat gear is much cheaper and easier to find and its also much more reliable. Food is cheaper, there are also plenty of fish in the sea. last year I brought 10 cases of cheap wine and bartered it for salmon, crab and halibut all summer long, 350 bucks worth of wine minus what I drank for an almost unlimited supply of protein. With modern navigation cruising is a breeze but in this area you really don't need much more than a cheap chart book to get by with a little common sense. Yesterday there was a 390' 4 billion dollar yacht right next to me, we shared the same sunrise and sunset but since I didn't once see anyone on deck I have to assume we were having much more fun. There is an almost endless supply of food to be foraged in the Salish and you can hunt or fish year round if thats your thing. The key to surviving up here on a budget is a good sailing boat with great sails, there is always enough wind regardless of what the Marconi Trawler captains tell you.


Thanks to you both. Up until quite recently I had been getting kind of anxious about getting out of here, and thinking that meant sort of a drive-by of places North but that South is where I want to be. But then I realized "here" is really just Seattle. Fun to visit, but a ridiculous place for a regular person to try to live. It takes constant reminders to slow down and not get ahead of myself so as not to miss out on what's in the present.

By the way barefoot... I'll be in PT Thursday to see talks by Lin and Larry Pardey and Steve Callahan, then attend the Wooden Boat Festival on Friday. If you're around maybe we could grab a beer. I'll be with Scott from Three Sheets NW and I'm sure he would like to meet you too.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Capt Len

What he said. I started with oil lamps and a sounder, thats it. So easy to get started today and keep going on your wits. Good thing most find that a scary challenge else we'd be knee deep in losers. Bare foot. My garden runs over, trade? (I make my own wine so no go there.) Mr. , last met Larry and Lin at artist Godfrey's party.Say hi for me. (not a celeb so maybe blank stare)


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## christian.hess

hey enjoy the wooden boat festival honeydoo...we had a blast with my family, the talks were interesting(I got a bit sleepy listening to the pardeys, jajaja) but mostly I really enjoyed stepping into all the old wooden boats and oooh aaahing

also enjoyed some nice local brews there too...

at the time I wanted to be a shipwright at the port townsend wooden boat school almost started...

started cooking instead! jajaja


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## MedSailor

Mr. My vote would be for PT for where you should settle. It's a much more vagabond-slow-down friendly town and for those that have stepped out of the rat race, it's paradise. Enjoy the wooden boat festival, it's always a treat.

Oak harbor has a marina that is cheap to moor in, but it's a long walk to the grocery store and I find the town lacks soul. 

Anacortes is a great town, but it's expensive (apparently our Safeway is the most expensive one in the state). There are also a lot of folks here who are still really in the rat race FWIW. Hard to beat Anacortes though for access to sailing grounds. 

Have you considered Friday Harbor? 

BTW, none of these places are too far away to turn back from if things aren't shaping up like you want them to. Go now, if it doesn't work, go back and try again. 

MedSailor


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## mrhoneydew

Thanks so much! I really do like Port Townsend. Feels like my speed. Hopefully things will work out and I can spend the winter on the hard at boat haven tented in putting off projects until I wake up and realize Spring is afoot and I set about in a mad flourish to get launched. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## christian.hess

do enjoy it! I would of loved to stay in port townsend, work on boats or at one of the bars or restaurants and have my boat out there in the harbor

you never know really...never say never

someday Ill make it there by boat who knows? jajaja

peace


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## vega1860

MedSailor said:


> Mr. My vote would be for PT for where you should settle. It's a much more vagabond-slow-down friendly town and for those that have stepped out of the rat race, it's paradise. Enjoy the wooden boat festival, it's always a treat.


Recently returned from PT. Dropping a boat off at Boat Haven for shipping to SoCal. Still the best boatyard on the West Coast. Great beer at PT Brewing, great burgers at Sirens, the best milkshakes and fish and chips at CJs, awesome breakfast at the Blue Moose and everything you could possibly need in the boating realm accessible without a car. The Wooden Boat Festival is always great fun too. Town is too crowded for my tastes on a long term basis. Nice place to visit or get work done though.



> Anacortes is a great town, but it's expensive (apparently our Safeway is the most expensive one in the state). There are also a lot of folks here who are still really in the rat race FWIW. Hard to beat Anacortes though for access to sailing grounds.


 Agreed. When we lived in Friday Harbor we used to sail to Anacortes for groceries. It is also a tourist trap with numerous drive-in "Festivals" that bring in crowds of noisy partiers like the Lats and Atts pirate wannabes and biker crowds (Really the same thing if you know Bob Bitchin)



> Have you considered Friday Harbor?


Lived there for a year, Jan 2008 to Jan 2009. Just visited again in August. Friday Harbor/San Juan Island is a pretty cool place. A veritable storybook village in the winter time. A crowded, noisy, rude theme park in the summer. Free anchorage. Reasonable off-season moorage rates. Excellent harbor staff (Say "Hi" to Tammy for me)



> BTW, none of these places are too far away to turn back from if things aren't shaping up like you want them to. Go now, if it doesn't work, go back and try again.
> 
> MedSailor


We thought the NW Washington/SW British Columbia area was great by comparison after our years in Hawaii. The area compares very favorably to California too. Having said that, after my recent visit, it is really, REALLY good to be back in SE Alaska. 

Up here most of the boats are commercial fishermen; no nonsense professionals. There are very few yachts. Those that we do encounter are either run by professionals or by cruisers who have paid their dues getting here and know what they are doing. It is a striking contrast to the hoards of clueless, unthinking weekend warriors and summer sailors who only go as far as a tank of fuel will take them from Seattle or Victoria.

Oh yeah. It is MUCH less expensive up here too.

The downside? It is really quiet. People watching is not so great. Not much nightlife. Internet access and broadcast FM radio are rather limited. No major league baseball.


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## barefootnavigator

Vega, I'm curious about reduced winter rates in FH. I'm looking between FH PT and FB FB is only 200 per month but the other two are quite pricey. I have to be in Port Townsend by Feb but would prefer to sail the islands till then.


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## newhaul

vega1860 said:


> broadcast FM radio are rather limited. No major league baseball.


Plenty of time to catch up on reading and for baseball its xm radio


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## mitchbrown

barefootnavigator said:


> Vega, I'm curious about reduced winter rates in FH. I'm looking between FH PT and FB FB is only 200 per month but the other two are quite pricey. I have to be in Port Townsend by Feb but would prefer to sail the islands till then.


Spent winter in FH 2 years ago. Pretty expensive, just under 10 bucks a foot plus electric, and if you have a car, parking permit is 40 dollars.

Deer Harbor winter storage rate is around 5 dollars per foot.


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## vega1860

Comforts and conveniences cost. What costs the most is simply the opportunity to spend money ashore.

Which brings us back to the original title of the thread: Voyaging on $500 per month. Once the boat is paid for and provisions made for ongoing preventive maintenance, All you really need are groceries and fuel...

...unless you want enhanced comfort and convenience (And the opportunity to spend money ashore). Then it is going to cost you.

Re: Friday Harbor: IIRC, the off season rate was the same as the permanent mooring rate, as opposed to the summer - transient (Daily) rate. No wait list in the off season. $10 per foot per month, or thereabouts, is quite reasonable for a good marina in that area IMO.

If you want cheap there are plenty of free anchorages, even at Friday Harbor or Port Townsend. You will have to row ashore to spend money but you can walk past the harbor office without dropping off a check.

Up here in Alaska there are quite a lot of places where you can tie up to a float and stay as long as you like without paying. The US Forest Service, the state Fish and Game Department and many small towns and villages maintain floats and do not charge for their use. There will not be a pump out, nor 30 amp electrical hookup. There may or may not be potable water. There will not be a lot of jobs, shopping opportunities, restaurants or entertainment venues, but its free.


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## barefootnavigator

Thanks Vega, we chatted briefly in FH a few weeks ago, it was your signature cigar that gave it away.


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## MikeOReilly

While I might add a bit more to the list of up front needs Vega (like a good collection of spare parts, skills development, and a nest egg to deal with major issues), I agree. Wants vs needs. Our consumerist society is all about turning wants into needs. Once one figures this out, and removes the temptresses that are all around us, then it's a lot easier to live, and cruise, on very little. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## smackdaddy

barefootnavigator said:


> Vega, I'm curious about reduced winter rates in FH. I'm looking between FH PT and FB FB is only 200 per month but the other two are quite pricey. I have to be in Port Townsend by Feb but would prefer to sail the islands till then.


Aren't you selling your boat? Good luck on the bike ride.


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## barefootnavigator

smackdaddy said:


> Aren't you selling your boat? Good luck on the bike ride.


We are selling the boat and we are going on a bike tour . We are also upgrading to a BCC as it is a much better platform for my rapidly aging dog. The wheels are already in motion. I don't personally need or want a boat as large as the BCC but the ones we are looking at buying are fixer uppers, when we are done with it we will sell it buy another small boat and take the remaining cash to put into our kitty. I'm really curious to see is we can live as simply on the bikes as we can in the boat. We are currently eating food we bought and paid for three years ago. When we never realized how much food we carried till we started to try and eat it all because we can't take it with us. Other than fresh fruit and veggies from local farms we have been eating and drinking out of the bilges since the beginning of may and still have a ton of food and drink aboard. I must say, I think my little cutter is the best damn boat on the planet. One reason we can carry so much is that we have no inboard engine or fuel tanks, or head or holding tanks or even built in water tanks. water tanks. We also have built in lockers under our super wide deck that run from bow to stern, we carry light things like clothes and tp in the deck lockers. Our bilge is shiny and clean and acts as a cooling box. I've not once been able to fill every locker in the boat or get down to my DWL.


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## christian.hess

hey dualsporting is just as awesome as cruising

what kind of bikes are you buying? I outfitted my kawasaki klr650 for long distance touring and had a blast all over the country and guatemala...

pack light, use the same waterproof stuff you use on the boat for panniers and small duffles, I used my foulies for heavy tropical rain down here(yes thats my custom trick) and other such stuff

its fun!


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## barefootnavigator

We are actually using bicycles, mine is a surly Katate monkey single speed, what can I say I do everything the hard way. With the dog and trailer I will be pulling about 275 including me and our crap. We are doing a 3500 mile loop. I love my boat but its the worst possible set up for my aging dog so we are taking a break.

I love sailing more than anything in the world but have never wanted to put my dog through an offshore passage so we buy a cleaner upper sail while we restore it and then sell it and move to a new region, next on my list is the east coast. My last three boats have been a Flicka, Allegra 24 and now my little cutter. I have still always wanted to own and sail the BCC a Norsea 27 and a Dana 24. Living locally I can afford the BCC but its too much boat for my budget for long term so it will be a short lived affair, then on to the other two. So far the FC is hands down the best boat I have ever owned, sails like dream, even when everyone else around here is motoring.

As for the bike trip I am making all my own gear other than a trailer for the dog. We will be taking off why routes as much as possible and stealth camping everywhere we can. I'm a bit nervous about my 32x19 gearing but if I fail I can always add gears. An interesting thing about single speed bikes is that you are 100% connected to the terrain. I'm always being called a purist but I don't think I am, I just love the challenge and being one hundred percent connected to what I do. 

A dual sport sounds amazing, is Darrien Gap still a tough spot? Maybe I should make a side trip to your restaurant for and excellent meal and some sailing chat. Send me your GPS quadrants and don't be surprised when two hungry gringos show up with the cutest dog on the planet.


----------



## christian.hess

the darien gap is still a no go, mostly because you will get shot by either the guerrillas on the colombian side, or panamanian drug dealers and or the military

the trick to the darien gap is to get a sailboat ride from either side...there are many boats that do so on either the pacific or carribean side

the hop on the pacific side is however much more "dangerous" adventurous is a better word, than the typical colon, san blas, cartagena trip.

about bikes when in san fran cooking I had some cook friends who where all about single gear custom messenger bikes..and I can say that for certain scenarios they are a blast...and faster

put my treck road bike to shame...and it was no turd at around 23.24 lbs cant remember jajaja

you might get into trouble down here with single speed bikes but up north youll be fine I guess...

about the restaurant, it might be here or not depending on if it sells(any takers? cheap!!!)

like you major plan change and were moving to the states for some time...georgia to be exact. Hope to sail in one of the many lakes there at least on a small 20footer or something. To get the kid started in boats...

Ill still be cooking though!

peace bud


----------



## Minnesail

Warning: Non-sailing related thread drift ahead.



barefootnavigator said:


> We are actually using bicycles, mine is a surly Katate monkey single speed.


Excellent! Surly is a Minnesota company, just a few miles south of my house.

I ride a 29" fixed gear as my winter bike (pictured in my avatar). I love the connected feeling a fixed gear gives you.



barefootnavigator said:


> We will be taking off why routes as much as possible and stealth camping everywhere we can. I'm a bit nervous about my 32x19 gearing but if I fail I can always add gears.


I use a flip-flop hub. It has gears on both sides so if you feel like you've over-geared yourself for the day you just flip the wheel over and use the cog on the other side. It also gives you some redundancy so if you completely strip out a cog (like I did last winter) you're not dead on the road-you just switch sides and keep pedaling. My local bike store guy keeps a fixed cog on one side, then a freehweel with an easier gearing on the other side. He uses the freewheel and easier gearing when he has a lot of hill climbs and descents to do.

Do keep an eye on your knees. I did a tour a few years ago where I was averaging over 80 miles a day, some of it gravel and hilly, and by the end my knees were letting me know my age. And you'll be towing a dog! Much better to take it easy and not destroy yourself.

Enjoy!


----------



## barefootnavigator

Minnesail, why can't I see anyones Avitars when I'm logged in, Its so strange. I just converted the KM from 48x18 fixed with drop bars and CX tires. Good idea on the Flip. The reason I am running the 32x19 is that it gives me the shortest effective chain stay and super quick handling, I will be riding to all the best trails in the south west. If you ever get a chance you should ride one, they are amazing bike, mine is 24.5 lbs which is light considering how heavy the frame is. Sorry for the thread drift but I have always had a bike on my boat. I hate cars.


----------



## christian.hess

OOOOH I like this thread drift

Ill be getting on road bikes again in georgia...my friend has a close friend with a bike shop...

down here its too dangerous to road bike unless you have a chaser...

people get run over daily...

ps the flip flop hubs are awesome

bike pedal technology btw is light years ahead of motor bike tech...awesome design stuff for sure


----------



## barefootnavigator

christian.hess said:


> OOOOH I like this thread drift
> 
> Ill be getting on road bikes again in georgia...my friend has a close friend with a bike shop...
> 
> down here its too dangerous to road bike unless you have a chaser...
> 
> people get run over daily...
> 
> ps the flip flop hubs are awesome
> 
> bike pedal technology btw is light years ahead of motor bike tech...awesome design stuff for sure




http://gypsybytrade.wordpress.com


----------



## christian.hess

barefootnavigator said:


> gypsy by trade | Ridin' bikes and travelin' light.


is that your blog too?


----------



## barefootnavigator

No but its my all-time favorite, he is a great writer and adventurer.


----------



## christian.hess

awesome...we met a few pedal bikers that come down here on their way to the tip of south america!

awesome people in my book.


----------



## Minnesail

Bike are a great way to save money. I ride mostly for the fun of riding, but it does help the budget.

My wife and I share one car, and often it doesn't get used all week. I bike to work and she takes the train. Minneapolis is a great town for biking year round. They maintain the trails well in the winter. Sometimes the bike trail gets plowed before my street does!

If we were really trying to budget I bet we could get by with no car, just renting one whenever we wanted to go on a road trip.


----------



## vega1860

I just this minute got back from riding to the harbor, then up the hill to the post office and grocery, then down the Hungry Point trail back to the shoreline.

Laura took her bike to Prince of Wales Island on M/V Hallie. Hers is the same frame with different accessories. She just got a new suspension fork with a disc brake as part of the total rebuild we did on both bikes. Both got new head sets, wheels, tires, cassettes, chains, hand grips and cables. I got new pedals.

We have had these bikes since about '95. No folders for us. I take the wheels off and put the frames in the lazarette when we go to sea. We can't imagine cruising without them.


----------



## JonEisberg

vega1860 said:


> We have had these bikes since about '95. No folders for us. I take the wheels off and put the frames in the lazarette when we go to sea. We can't imagine cruising without them.


Well, I can't imagine how you manage to stow 2 full sized bikes aboard an Albin Vega... 

I have all I can do to find the space for my Dahon folder aboard my 30-footer. But you're right, I wouldn't want to be without it, and it offers a surprisingly good ride...

Came in handy on a fuel run just last week, as a matter of fact...

3 trips, for a total of 18 gallons... It was sweet, a downhill glide virtually all the way back to the harbor...


----------



## Minnesail

JonEisberg said:


> It was sweet, a downhill glide virtually all the way back to the harbor...


I was about to post "better than the other way around, lugging 48lbs of fuel uphill!"

Then I realized how extremely unlikely it would be to go uphill to a harbor....


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

JonEisberg said:


> Well, I can't imagine how you manage to stow 2 full sized bikes aboard an Albin Vega...


starting at 3:52, their load out packing their bikes.


----------



## JonEisberg

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> starting at 3:52, their load out packing their bikes.


Yikes... Now, I probably love cycling as much as most, but if I had to go thru such a drill every time I wanted to take a ride, I'd probably give it up... 

Another thing some tend to overlook re the logistics of bicycles aboard, can be the difficulty of ferrying them ashore in your tender. One big advantage of a folder, seems to me, is the ability to keep it in a storage bag, protected from the elements, in the likely event of a wet ride to or from the boat at anchor... Getting 2 people, with 2 full size bicycles, in anything much smaller than an SUV-style dinghy, while keeping everything dry in the course of a trip across a choppy anchorage, can be quite the circus act...


----------



## Capt Len

With many hundreds of miles of abandoned(and active) logging roads on the coast,real mountain bikes are such a bonus.Big tires ,good brakes.Mine strapped on outboard off the mizzen pinrails and got ashore in the 12 ft skiff. A hard life for a bike so considered them expendable.(beaters)


----------



## killarney_sailor

I was trying to think about people we have met in obscure cruising locations who had bikes with them. Very few come to mind. One couple on a large 52' (as opposed to a small 52') had full size bikes. They said they never took them ashore from an anchorage but used them if they were on a dock somewhere.


----------



## christian.hess

yup...its not THAT popular with the cruising crowd...I think it simply depends on wether you cyclced before going cruising or not, versus say the practicallity of it.

stowing bikes is not the hard part, its the wet dinghy ride to the dock or beach that ticks people off...

now in marinas I saw LOTS of people with bikes on boats...

for example Id have a hard time taking this mountainbike on a wet salty dinghy ride to the beach without feeling really bad


however they do sell stainless, chromoly and other chains these days


----------



## vega1860

JonEisberg said:


> Well, I can't imagine how you manage to stow 2 full sized bikes aboard an Albin Vega...


I started to post a link to the video but Isee someone beat me to it.


----------



## Minnesail

I don't usually have much to add to sailing discussions because I'm so new, but I can add something about how to help a bike stand up to saltwater.

Minnesota uses lots of salt and sand on the roads to melt ice and give traction, so from December to sometime in April I commute to work through a slushy mixture of gritty salt.

I used to ride a Trek mountain bike and had to replace / rebuild a lot of it every spring. When it got stolen I replaced it with something simpler. 

I built up a fixed gear bike with a Surly rear hub and bottom bracket. They're a Minnesota company so they know how to seal the bearings to keep saltwater out. I use caliper brakes—they're not as sexy as disc brakes but they hold up better. I use a SRAM nickel chain. And that's all the moving parts the bike has. It basically sits in salt water all winter long. When spring comes I give it a good hose down, replace the chain, and I'm good for another year. Once I've had to rebuild the hub.


----------



## barefootnavigator

I've always had a bike on my boat, usually s folder and often a full six MTB. I have never once rowed it to shore but from the dock dwelling prospective they are awesome. I've been a dock queen out in the islands all summer as the most I can get away with right now is short day sails. I'm shocked at how many people have bikes on their boats. At any given time I can see one or two walking down the gangway. 

A couple of years ago an a snowy Christmas Eve I strapped my panniers on my Dahon and rode up to the local co-op, only a few miles but too far to walk. I saw a friend driving in circles in the impossibly crowded parking lot when I arrived. I locked my dog and bike to a pole and did my shopping. I found everything I wanted and everything fit in nice and snug with a french roll strapped on top. My friend was still driving around looking for a spot to park in. Next was the chocolatier for a good bar of chocolate and then the video store for a christmas movie. It was down hill all the way and I rode right to my boat. I unclipped the saddle bags and put them in the boat folded the bike and stowed it in the aft locker and put everything away. This took about 5 minutes. When my wife got home I had hot buttered rum fresh rolls and home made cream of mushroom soup waiting. I'm guessing by this time my friend had done her shopping and was fighting traffic to get home.

The above is an excerpt from a blog post I'm writing today, it seemed fitting to add it here.


----------



## northoceanbeach

I had a folding bike but someone stole it and wrecked it and ruined it. The cops found it but it was beyond reasonable repair. It was really fun when I had it though, it made trips to the store much more convenient and was fun to ride around. If I were to get another, which I might, I would get some ortlieb panniers for provisioning.


----------



## christian.hess

hey north you taipaned yet?

updates?


----------



## Andrew65

For 6 full years in all sorts of norwegian weather I biked. Work- 15km roundtrip. Winter? Studded tires. Beater bikes because they don't get stolen and if I needed parts there was always another beater laying on the side of the road from some drunk trying to get home after a night out.. I biked with my two kids on it too when they didn't ride their own after they were big enough....everywhere and some. One in the seat back to daycare and one on the bar to school.
Now that I live aboard with my girlfriend, we have a car-hers. (I can write that cause she no be reading sailnet-sshhhhh). 
One day in a flea market, I picked up a very slightly used Magnum Voyager folding bike for basically a song and still ride when necessary. I can take it on the bus (a long uphill ride) or put it in a car, then ride home at my leisure. I think they are a real asset on board. It surprises me to hear the opposite at times.


----------



## travlin-easy

I've only rode a couple folding bikes - they were very unstable to say the least, which I think is because of the smaller tires. A 26-inch is about as good as it gets, at least from my standpoint. I had a plastic box mounted on the back rack and could easily carry 50 pounds of groceries, and another 20 pounds of booze. I borrowed it from a guy in Marathon, Florida, it was a rusty junker that didn't shift properly, but I never had to ride it more than the length of the island so I really didn't care. It was very stable, even when an old man was aboard and had not rode a bike in 40 years. Granted, they take up space, but the price of a 26 incher from the big box stores is about $125 V/S the folders that go for three to four times that much. If it only lasted three years, it was still a bargain.

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## northoceanbeach

christian.hess said:


> hey north you taipaned yet?
> 
> updates?


I just finished loading the dinghy on my truck thing. It's a two man job. I'm leaving tomorrow. For sure. To go look.


----------



## MedSailor

Double post. Will delete


----------



## MedSailor

Stupid tapatalk. Will delete


----------



## christian.hess

northoceanbeach said:


> I just finished loading the dinghy on my truck thing. It's a two man job. I'm leaving tomorrow. For sure. To go look.


2 man job huh?

hows that going to work on the boat?

ps. just messin with ya

good luck on the hunt, keep us updated, where theres a will theres a way(brittish academy quote) jajaja


----------



## Andrew65

A quote I stand firmly behind!


----------



## christian.hess

Andrew65 said:


> A quote I stand firmly behind!


what quote bro? jajaja kiddin


----------



## Andrew65

It's cool,

It's a good quote cause when sheet hits the fan and you see it's gonna be a long uphill climb, it's a good one to get you through it. 
For example, Alone, I had to move my new solid wood mast (14 meters long) a few km down the road where my boat was waiting. I moved that mofo with 3 sections of the old mast and some pebbles to stop it rolling, 2 hours and 2 km later some workers laughingly with humor took pity on me and lifted the mast up on their industrial dolly to send me on my way for the last 1.5km. It took the better part of a day, but that mast got stepped. Giving the dolly back, they got a 6pack.


----------



## christian.hess

THATS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT!!!!! never give up

awesome andrew


----------



## Capt Len

Andrew, There may have been an easier method. I regularly moved 14 meter mast material by laying the butt on an old tire in the trunk of my '66 bel aire .the other end on a borrowed boat trailer.Some lashing and a red flag completed the ensemble. Since they were only about 3 to 5 hundred pounds with the bark on the only difficulty was negotiating tight corners in downtown Victoria. (the necessity of invention is whatever works for you)


----------



## Capt Len

Back to bikes on board for a moment. Just wanted to mention biking on logging roads. Be sure to make lots of noise so as to give the bears a chance to get off the road.Their idea of social encounter may be different and it's their turf.


----------



## Andrew65

Now you tell me! Ha!

Time was of the essence as they say, plus it was all I had at hand. It was done on a walk/bike path? Later when I was wintering over at that same marina with the crane, a member introduced himself by saying "Holy sheet, were you that guy moving that mast!?" after I had arrived by yuloh power from touching das boat for 5 hours to that marina.
Not to derail the thread, but if 500 is all you got, then it's all you got.


----------



## Andrew65

Yulohing das boat I meant. Taptalk sucks.


----------



## christian.hess

thats what this thread is abouut andrew! awesome stories...

make do with what youve got...never let anyone think less of you for that...


----------



## Andrew65

...then here's one more for you.

My boat is very similar to the Pardey's "Talesin", but I use a 5.5 meter handmade yuloh. It's posted about somewhere here in SN. It's a free workout, but with the price of diesel and/or a mechanic, a worthwhile one.


----------



## christian.hess

andrew and others:

this is what this thread is about

Latitude 38 Changes in Latitudes September 2014

update by beau soleil

all that has been said on this thread is pretty much summed up in few simple efficient words by this guy.

In fact I think I linked him a few times before when mentioning latitude 38.

so bean counters, and excel spreadsheet sticklers, get ready for your brains to explode!

500 a month.


----------



## newhaul

christian.hess said:


> andrew and others:
> 
> this is what this thread is about
> 
> Latitude 38 Changes in Latitudes September 2014
> 
> update by beau soleil
> 
> all that has been said on this thread is pretty much summed up in few simple efficient words by this guy.
> 
> In fact I think I linked him a few times before when mentioning latitude 38.
> 
> so bean counters, and excel spreadsheet sticklers, get ready for your brains to explode!
> 
> 500 a month.


Great link


----------



## JonEisberg

christian.hess said:


> andrew and others:
> 
> this is what this thread is about
> 
> Latitude 38 Changes in Latitudes September 2014
> 
> update by beau soleil
> 
> all that has been said on this thread is pretty much summed up in few simple efficient words by this guy.
> 
> In fact I think I linked him a few times before when mentioning latitude 38.
> 
> so bean counters, and excel spreadsheet sticklers, get ready for your brains to explode!
> 
> 500 a month.


Well, OK... if he says so... However, while my brain is not actually exploding, I'm gonna take some of his claims with more than a grain or two of salt, my ear is detecting more than just a hint of bluster from this guy... 

He sure is playing pretty fast and loose with certain easily verifiable numbers... After all, anyone who claims his Dickerson 41 is actually a "Dickerson 47" simply because he tacked on some sort of sugar scoop "surfing bustle", without adding an inch to the boat's LOD, well... for me, that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in his accuracy when citing dollar amounts, either...

Just sayin'... 

Gotta give him credit for adding the caveat _"plus diesel"_ to his claim on 'voyaging' on $500/month, however... 










Wow, passing thru the eye wall of _FOUR_ Cat 5 storms, eh? Damn, _THAT_ has to be some sort of record, no?

)


----------



## MikeOReilly

Great link, well said by Beau Soleil. It mirrors what I dared to say over at the $3000/month thread (and of course got slammed by the OP). On our current cruise we've been out for going on 60 days straight. It's hard to see how to spend that much money ($3000) in a month. Even with our engine problems, and hitting the town restaurants more than planned, I just can't see how one could spend that much money. 




Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## JonEisberg

MikeOReilly said:


> Great link, well said by Beau Soleil. It mirrors what I dared to say over at the $3000/month thread (and of course got slammed by the OP). On our current cruise we've been out for going on 60 days straight. *It's hard to see how to spend that much money ($3000) in a month.* Even with our engine problems, and hitting the town restaurants more than planned, I just can't see how one could spend that much money.
> 
> Why go fast, when you can go slow


Trust me, Mike, it can be accomplished VERY easily... 

I see folks doing it all the time... Snowbirds motoring down the ICW, some might easily attain that rate of expenditure in marina dockage alone...

It's pretty jaw-dropping, what some people are spending out there today... I think you might begin to appreciate that a bit more, once you reach New England, and some of the other prime "Yachting Centers" along the Eastern Seaboard...


----------



## MikeOReilly

JonEisberg said:


> Trust me, Mike, it can be accomplished VERY easily...
> 
> I see folks doing it all the time... Snowbirds motoring down the ICW, some might easily attain that rate of expenditure in marina dockage alone...
> 
> It's pretty jaw-dropping, what some people are spending out there today...


Therein lies the rub, or perhaps the core of this discussion Jon: choices. It comes down to choices, and the consequences of those choices.

If you choose to cruise in a big expensive boat instead of something adequate (the smallest boat you can live with), if you choose to hop from marina to marina instead of anchoring, if you choose to be a motorboat instead of accepting the vagaries of wind and seas, if you choose to eat out instead of cooking yourself, if you choose expensive touristy locales instead of finding joy and wonder everywhere ... then yes, it's easy to spend tons.

Comes down to choices, and the consequences that follow.

Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## Group9

MikeOReilly said:


> Great link, well said by Beau Soleil. It mirrors what I dared to say over at the $3000/month thread (and of course got slammed by the OP). On our current cruise we've been out for going on 60 days straight. It's hard to see how to spend that much money ($3000) in a month. Even with our engine problems, and hitting the town restaurants more than planned, I just can't see how one could spend that much money.
> 
> Why go fast, when you can go slow


I, too, think it would be hard to do it if you stayed on the hook all of the time. It would be real easy if you decided you had to stay in a marina every night.

Exclude marina costs and I think there were probably a lot of months for sure, we didn't spend over $500. 
One of the big costs I had that wasn't really necessary was full insurance coverage in the Carribbean. It was over $200 a month (and would be twice that now, I bet) and I won't do that again. Better to buy more chain and anchors, I think.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Group9 said:


> One of the big costs I had that wasn't really necessary was full insurance coverage in the Carribbean. It was over $200 a month (and would be twice that now, I bet) and I won't do that again. Better to buy more chain and anchors, I think.


Agreed! Living frugally means going without insurance (or perhaps liability-only); at least without the financial kind of insurance. But this choice comes with consequences, like being smart about anchoring, and avoiding places where the risks are too high.

Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## christian.hess

JonEisberg said:


> Well, OK... if he says so... However, while my brain is not actually exploding, I'm gonna take some of his claims with more than a grain or two of salt, my ear is detecting more than just a hint of bluster from this guy...
> 
> He sure is playing pretty fast and loose with certain easily verifiable numbers... After all, anyone who claims his Dickerson 41 is actually a "Dickerson 47" simply because he tacked on some sort of sugar scoop "surfing bustle", without adding an inch to the boat's LOD, well... for me, that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in his accuracy when citing dollar amounts, either...
> 
> Just sayin'...
> 
> Gotta give him credit for adding the caveat _"plus diesel"_ to his claim on 'voyaging' on $500/month, however...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, passing thru the eye wall of _FOUR_ Cat 5 storms, eh? Damn, _THAT_ has to be some sort of record, no?
> 
> )


well Jon if you cant see the good points or those that matter to this thread well you wont ever...

of course embellishing some stuff is a good way to get people to keep reading( 2 years before the mast? slocum? jack london? ring a bell)

notice he is a writer too...

all I was doing was pointing to a pertinent update on good ole latitude 38 that has many guys doing just so

I posted a link to another guy here a while ago on a* pearson triton mintaka* even posted a vid, he is sailing engineless right now, on less than 500 a month

and yes peoples brains explode cause they want to take out all the reality and passion that doing this causes in ones soul

if you want to cover all bases before you go cruising, you want excel spreadsheets detailing your daily and monthly expenditures, know whats going to happen when you arrive in tahiti or south africa or thailand,and never experience it, because you are so anal and square in the head(not you) then you will never understand and get out there...simply put as you know you never know till you do it....

just read a book!!!

read the end first so you dont have any anxiety issues and simply live a boring life

I just never ever understand why no matter, what some people are never pleased and will argue even the most frivolous and nonsensical points just to prove something

of course I laughed out loud when he said he experienced 150knots more at the center of the hurricane eye than normal hurricane winds, of course!

does that mean the rest of the post was ****?

just sayin

damn


----------



## Group9

MikeOReilly said:


> Agreed! Living frugally means going without insurance (or perhaps liability-only); at least without the financial kind of insurance. But this choice comes with consequences, like being smart about anchoring, and avoiding places where the risks are too high.
> 
> Why go fast, when you can go slow


I had just bought the boat then, and was scared to death of losing it and my entire investment in it. After sailing it for five years, I got over that and only carry liability now. I'm not scared of weather destroying it, but I do still worry lightning or some other non-weather related problem. But, as Al Pacino said in "Heat" "You can get killed walking your doggie." 

You can't eliminate every risk in life. And, who would want to?


----------



## MedSailor

MikeOReilly said:


> Therein lies the rub, or perhaps the core of this discussion Jon: choices. It comes down to choices, and the consequences of those choices.
> 
> *If you choose to cruise in a big expensive boat instead of something adequate (the smallest boat you can live with),* if you choose to hop from marina to marina instead of anchoring, if you choose to be a motorboat instead of accepting the vagaries of wind and seas, if you choose to eat out instead of cooking yourself, if you choose expensive touristy locales instead of finding joy and wonder everywhere ... then yes, it's easy to spend tons.
> 
> Comes down to choices, and the consequences that follow.
> 
> Why go fast, when you can go slow


I clearly made the choice to go bigger and more complex than I needed to when I chose the NC40 over the NC38. I'm still going to see if I can keep things reasonably frugal by keeping my spending choices on the cheaper side. I'll put to the test how much the bigger/more complex boat adds to the cost.

MedSailor


----------



## MikeOReilly

MedSailor said:


> I clearly made the choice to go bigger and more complex than I needed to when I chose the NC40 over the NC38. I'm still going to see if I can keep things reasonably frugal by keeping my spending choices on the cheaper side. I'll put to the test how much the bigger/more complex boat adds to the cost.
> 
> MedSailor


Exactly. You went into your new boat with eyes wide open. Choices and consequences. All good, and all the better if you can make it work. I've done the same, going from our 34 footer to our monster 37 footer. I admire the guys & gals that are our there doing it on 27 footers, but that isn't me. Choice and consequence. It's up to each of us to find the right balance.

So of course it IS possible to choose a $500/month cruising life, and accept the consequences of that choice. It may not be a choice many would make, but it is certainly possible.

Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## newhaul

MikeOReilly said:


> Exactly. You went into your new boat with eyes wide open. Choices and consequences. All good, and all the better if you can make it work. I've done the same, going from our 34 footer to our monster 37 footer. I admire the guys & gals that are our there doing it on 27 footers, but that isn't me. Choice and consequence. It's up to each of us to find the right balance.
> 
> So of course it IS possible to choose a $500/month cruising life, and accept the consequences of that choice. It may not be a choice many would make, but it is certainly possible.
> 
> Why go fast, when you can go slow


Great job mike keep the data flowing


----------



## Bob142

Originally Posted by JonEisberg

He sure is playing pretty fast and loose with certain easily verifiable numbers... After all, anyone who claims his Dickerson 41 is actually a "Dickerson 47" simply because he tacked on some sort of sugar scoop "surfing bustle", without adding an inch to the boat's LOD, well... for me, that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in his accuracy when citing dollar amounts, either...


All I read into that was that he was saying that by adding the 6 feet he was increasing his costs...moorage and haul outs...


----------



## Andrew65

Thanks for the link Christian. I've seen that before, but haven't looked through all the articles.I think I'll start. Mike's right about choices and consequences. That's a universal truth especially so with cruising cause money is always going out and not coming in if you don't keep your eyes and ears open for opportunities. Thinking minimalistic also helps. That's a good approach too.


----------



## christian.hess

speaking of bikes, jajaja

Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude


----------



## newhaul

Here ya go kinda blows the 500 budget for a month but its cool EVO 2X Gas Scooter 2 Speed


----------



## travlin-easy

Newhaul, for that price you can buy a pretty good moped, much greater carrying capacity, 120 MPG, and be able to haul groceries and booze back to the boat with ease. Yeah, it weighs a bit more, takes up more space, but you get a lot more bang for the buck.

Gary


----------



## newhaul

Yea I know but this one folds in a cool way and would fit in my lazzerete but I prefer walking and have a big wheeled bag that will hold a 5 gal jerry can easy


----------



## christian.hess

those are cool...like a dolly bag thingy right?


----------



## newhaul

Similar to this Tommy Bahama Retreat II 21-inch Wheeled Carry On Upright Suitcase | Overstock&#0153; Shopping - Great Deals on Tommy Bahama Carry On Upright Luggage paid 8 bucks for mine at goodwill store


----------



## JonEisberg

christian.hess said:


> well Jon if you cant see the good points or those that matter to this thread well you wont ever...
> 
> of course embellishing some stuff is a good way to get people to keep reading( 2 years before the mast? slocum? jack london? ring a bell)
> 
> notice he is a writer too...
> 
> all I was doing was pointing to a pertinent update on good ole latitude 38 that has many guys doing just so
> 
> I posted a link to another guy here a while ago on a* pearson triton mintaka* even posted a vid, he is sailing engineless right now, on less than 500 a month
> 
> and yes peoples brains explode cause they want to take out all the reality and passion that doing this causes in ones soul
> 
> if you want to cover all bases before you go cruising, you want excel spreadsheets detailing your daily and monthly expenditures, know whats going to happen when you arrive in tahiti or south africa or thailand,and never experience it, because you are so anal and square in the head(not you) then you will never understand and get out there...simply put as you know you never know till you do it....
> 
> just read a book!!!
> 
> read the end first so you dont have any anxiety issues and simply live a boring life
> 
> I just never ever understand why no matter, what some people are never pleased and will argue even the most frivolous and nonsensical points just to prove something
> 
> of course I laughed out loud when he said he experienced 150knots more at the center of the hurricane eye than normal hurricane winds, of course!
> 
> does that mean the rest of the post was ****?
> 
> just sayin
> 
> damn


Jeez, christian, chill out... All I said is that I'll take this guy's claims "with a grain or two of salt"... based, in part, due to his BS claim that he sails a "Dickerson 47"... )

I am not "unable to see", nor dismissing any of the good that has come of this thread. I aspire to much of this, myself. I would venture to say that I probably cruise in a style, and on a budget, that is far more modest than the majority here, and out there... Everywhere I've been this summer, in those places where I have seen other cruising boats, mine has been the smallest, by far... Tonight, I'm in Shelburne, Nova Scotia, with about 8 other boats awaiting the weather to leave. As usual, my 30-footer is the smallest of the bunch, by 8 feet... And I can pretty much guarantee, if and when I make it in to Nantucket, I will be the only boat in that harbor not lying to a mooring...

If it hadn't been for all the diesel I've had to use @ $6-7/gallon on this trip, my monthly expenditures over the last 2 would have probably been less than the average homeless person in NYC spends on cigarettes... I simply think some in this thread might have somewhat unrealistic expectations about the real costs of cruising, over an extended period, at least in developed parts of the world, is all... Why does the guy on BEAU SOLEIL not include his fuel expenditures in his budget? Is that not part of the cost of cruising? How far do you suppose I would get with MasterCard if I challenged the charges for all my fuel purchases from this summer, and tried pleading "but, wait, those don't _COUNT_ ? )

I admire those who are able to sustain the minimalist lifestyle over time, but it can come at a cost... during the course of my stay here in Shelburne, I've gotten to know an Austrian couple partway through what will likely turn out to be their 3rd circumnavigation... They're very well known back in their homeland, and have managed to make a living selling the Cruising Dream, giving slideshows and presentations during scheduled breaks in their cruising. And yet, their budget is so tight, it will not at the moment permit them to travel back to Vienna in October for their daughter's marriage...

Yup, it's all about choices, alright... But as I've argued from the start of this thread, the $500/month target is gonna be a very tough one for most to hit, and I just don't see how it's possible - again, in most parts of the world - in anything other than a very modest boat, and sailing without an engine, or insurance... Make the choice to go without those, then you've probably got a real shot...



Bob142 said:


> Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> 
> He sure is playing pretty fast and loose with certain easily verifiable numbers... After all, anyone who claims his Dickerson 41 is actually a "Dickerson 47" simply because he tacked on some sort of sugar scoop "surfing bustle", without adding an inch to the boat's LOD, well... for me, that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in his accuracy when citing dollar amounts, either...
> 
> All I read into that was that he was saying that by adding the 6 feet he was increasing his costs...moorage and haul outs...


Well, I don't read it that way, as he enumerates haulout costs in addition to diesel as one of those expenditures that he's NOT including in his budget... And, I doubt anyone sailing a boat of that size on $500/month is spending much time in marinas...

Looking at the pics of his boat, there's no way he has "lengthened" her by 6 feet. The length on deck is unchanged. Just because someone slaps a pair of davits on the back of their Cabo Rico 38, that doesn't make it a Cabo Rico 42...

Not in my opinion, anyway...


----------



## Capt Len

So, the 12 feet of bowsprit and 5 ft of dingy and davits don't count? The guy with the clip board and tape measure I met if I ever dared to join the yachties in their favourite pastime said different.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Jon, you're right; the $500/month number is very difficult, especially for those of us who currently live in expensive parts of the world, sail larger boats, and must resort to the iron genny to anchor and dock. And yes, full insurance is out. That's all been said many times before on this thread (although I don't have any problem having things repeated ... everything's been said on this thread many times). 

But to restate another point that's been said many times, $500/month is not some sort of Holy Grail. The discussion here is meant to learn and to help others approach a frugal cruising lifestyle. 

Let's face it, it doesn't take much ingenuity to spend lots. As you've said, that's easy to do. The challenge is to live frugally, yet still live the life. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## JonEisberg

My internet access has really been intermittent of late, so forgive me it this one has already been linked to here or elsewhere, and I've missed it...

Here's a beautifully shot and edited short film, certainly applies to the subject of this thread:

The Pros and Cons of Living on a Sailboat in the Caribbean - The Atlantic

Interestingly, Ronnie Simpson chimed in re this film over on Cruising Anarchy. He's currently in Fiji aboard his 27-footer, living what he claims to be a lifestyle very similar to that depicted above...

He reckons his average expenses are running right around $1K/month...


----------



## newhaul

Hey guys here's a deal I found today I did an actual hands on of the TV and it uses 12 volt DC thru a converter Insignia 24" Class 2358" Diag. LED 720p 60Hz HDTV DVD Combo NS-24ED310NA15 - Best Buy


----------



## newhaul

travlineasy said:


> Newhaul, for that price you can buy a pretty good moped, much greater carrying capacity, 120 MPG, and be able to haul groceries and booze back to the boat with ease. Yeah, it weighs a bit more, takes up more space, but you get a lot more bang for the buck.
> 
> Gary


Gary there is one little thing against a moped here in the pnw I would need a motorcycle endorsement on a drivers license on the scooter I don't even need a license-.


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## travlin-easy

Same is true in some states in the U.S.. Just the governments way of extorting more money from us.

Gary


----------



## Group9

MikeOReilly said:


> Jon, you're right; the $500/month number is very difficult, especially for those of us who currently live in expensive parts of the world, sail larger boats, and must resort to the iron genny to anchor and dock. And yes, full insurance is out. That's all been said many times before on this thread (although I don't have any problem having things repeated ... everything's been said on this thread many times).
> 
> But to restate another point that's been said many times, $500/month is not some sort of Holy Grail. The discussion here is meant to learn and to help others approach a frugal cruising lifestyle.
> 
> Let's face it, it doesn't take much ingenuity to spend lots. As you've said, that's easy to do. The challenge is to live frugally, yet still live the life.
> 
> Why go fast, when you can go slow


Cost of living and the locale you're in does make a huge difference. Where I live now, you can be a live aboard, in a marina, and just about get by on $500 a month. When I lived in south Florida, that $500 wouldn't even come close to paying your slip rent.


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## UnionPacific

Group9 said:


> Cost of living and the locale you're in does make a huge difference. Where I live now, you can be a live aboard, in a marina, and just about get by on $500 a month. When I lived in south Florida, that $500 wouldn't even come close to paying your slip rent.


Our slip rent is $508 a month


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## Group9

UnionPacific said:


> Our slip rent is $508 a month


Mine is $182 a month now, electricity included, for a 42' foot boat. 

When I moved here from Miami, and heard the rates, I thought they were pulling my leg.


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## mrhoneydew

Group9 said:


> Mine is $182 a month now, electricity included, for a 42' foot boat.
> 
> When I moved here from Miami, and heard the rates, I thought the were pulling my leg.


I knew there was a reason I keep saying I am heading for Mexico this time next year... for a 28 - 34' boat I imagine they might accept a pack of cigarettes or something of equal value as payment for moorage.


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## Group9

mrhoneydew said:


> I knew there was a reason I keep saying I am heading for Mexico this time next year... for a 28 - 34' boat I imagine they might accept a pack of cigarettes or something of equal value as payment for moorage.


I'm not in Mexico, I'm in Mississippi. Other than the third world government they both have in common, on different ends of the big pond!


----------



## mrhoneydew

Group9 said:


> I'm not in Mexico, I'm in Mississippi. Other than the third world government they both have in common, on different ends of the big pond!


 OH! My mistake... I read the "Mexico" part but somehow missed the "Gulf of" part. Oops. I sincerely doubt I will come through or around from the Pacific just to make it to Mississippi for cheap moorage, but then again many things I do don't seem to make a lot of sense in retrospect.


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## newhaul

Group9 said:


> I'm not in Mexico, I'm in Mississippi. Other than the third world government they both have in common, on different ends of the big pond!


Hey I have family in Mississippi and friends in old mexico and the Mexican government ain't that bad or corrupt 
:batter:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher


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## barefootnavigator

I love this thread, it seems we have discussed everything except what you budget guys are sailing and how they are set up. I sail a 22' cutter displacing 7400 lbs usually engine-less and no electronics. I still use a lead line and my light comes from lanterns and candles. basically its a very comfortable boat perhaps like luxury camping. What I love best about my boat other than how beautifully she sails is that she will Heave to on a dime, has super wide decks and while she handles like a dingy in the marina and in light winds, feels more like a ship in more challenging conditions. I have been aboard her since the day She arrived in Wa with one small break to work on a few interior modifications. There are two of us aboard with our dog.


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## mrhoneydew

Mine is a '69 Columbia 28. I can't say there has been much sailing done on it in the year that I have owned it.  Definitely not my dream boat, but I had wanted a boat for over 8 years but time and circumstance didn't quite get me there. So when this came up cheap and it was passable to live on, I bought it. Over the past year I have considered what I would need to do to basically flip the boat at a profit and get something more to my liking. More recently I have decided to just finish the boat and keep it for a while. The best boat is the boat you already own, after all. So, the Atomic4 isn't running (working on it), the head seals were shot so it wouldn't pump (replacing head), no working electronics, the jib furler was "designed by Disney" (internal halyard that is straight up garbage), no means to cook... rudimentary to say the least. But I have power as I am tied to a dock. So I am chipping away at things as I can and by next Spring will leave to sail the Salish Sea. I have other things to wrap up or I would leave Seattle sooner.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## newhaul

I have discussed mine a 1967 24ft islander Bahama with now an 8 HP tohatsu I picked up for 25 bucks my anchor and cabin lights are independent solar lights and I have a small solar panel to recharge my house battery as needed it is an 8d wet cell I was given. I cook on a gasoline camp stove uses the same fuel aS my motor does.


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## northoceanbeach

I'm sailing, at least about to, a Cape Dory 28. I am foregoing electronics this time around. I thought about it, in fact, I knew whatever boat I bought wouldn't come with much, and I thought about it, and I just don't think they will add enough to my happiness. 

So depth and speed, a handheld and paper charts. Back to where I was on the Ranger 23. Which is where I was happiest, with the simplicity. There's beauty in simplicity. 

I'm definitely loving the more space though. The Ranger was awfully small. I remember a quote in the literature from the designer, about anyone below decks would have the sense to sit, so they didn't need any headroom, but with me it was cramped, with my girlfriend, just terribly small. Add rain and cold and it sucks ass.

The Bristol was better, but suffered from poor interior design. I like best the CD interior where it is galley and icebox immediately behind as you walk down, no quarter berths, and two settees along each side. It makes it feel so much more spacious inside than when they don't cram a sink and galley along one side, a table and benches along the other. You have to have a ****load of beam to do that, and even then, I would rather have to openness.

Also, scrap trying to pack a head with it's own door in there. There isn't room. Mine now has a bathroom area with the sink and vanity starboard and head port. There are doors that shut off from the v berth and main salon. Fold down really big table that hides flush with the bulkhead. 

AND STANDING HEADROOM THROUGHOUT LOVE IT.

I can't say that enough. I can't comment on the sailing characteristics yet. Waiting on a fix. But I'm just going to try to have upgraded space and boat quality, while getting back to basics. Simplicity. No dance electronics. They aren't needed. Just enjoy the beauty of nature. I don't want to be constantly fiddling with a chart plotter. I'm really surprised about this, because I thought I would go with electronics, but I'm not. 

As much as I make fun of the lead line. And while that may be an exaggeration of simplicity and budget cruising. You really just need depth, speed and some sort of navigation. I like the handheld, plus paper charts. I had fun with that. I didn't realize I missed it until I had that paper chart for the bay area and sacramento river delta in my hand and it just felt right.


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## barefootnavigator

All interesting thoughts. I have been contemplating a chart plotter as a fun backup to my paper charts but I will never add a depth sounder, I consider them to be dangerous. Interesting how so many of us have so many different ways to navigate yet we all get there. Btw I may be in SF in October to deliver a friends boat to Wa... BEERS!


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## mrhoneydew

Yeah, I hear what you are saying about full standing headroom and galley down one side with built-in dinette opposite. The former is the biggest reason I was considering looking for a different boat, and the latter sure takes up a lot of space. But, it's what I got for the time being so I'll live with it for now. As for electronics, I sort of went gung-ho before I started reading this thread, so I have chart plotter, radar, sonar... all waiting to be installed. Not sure if I will install or not at this point, though I could never get out of them what I paid for them. And I do like the idea of having radar in the Pacific NW given the propensity for fog.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## northoceanbeach

barefootnavigator said:


> All interesting thoughts. I have been contemplating a chart plotter as a fun backup to my paper charts but I will never add a depth sounder, I consider them to be dangerous. Interesting how so many of us have so many different ways to navigate yet we all get there. Btw I may be in SF in October to deliver a friends boat to Wa... BEERS!


Hell ya!


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## newhaul

Forgot my shipboard electronics are a piranha 4 fish finder an old vhf a handheld GPS and a hand crank am FM radio http://images.amazon.com/images/G/01/electronics/detail-page/fr200-s-1-lg.jpg and paper charts


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## MikeOReilly

Just about completed our 70 day, ~1500 nm journey on the Great Lakes for this year. Our Rafiki 37 continues to feel just right for our long term cruising plans. She sails beautifully, and in a wide range of convictions. We spent days ghosting at 1-2 knots, and the stout cutter rig moved our way through big choppy seas and near-gale winds confidently and safely. The wide decks, large toe rail and fairly flat cabin make it a good working platform. And our anchoring gear never let us down. 

From the livable standpoint it seems perfect for a couple who still likes each other. And the tankage and storage is excellent. 

The only downsides so far in our journey has been our draught; at 6 feet we've found a number of places we just can't get into. And our hull/rudder design makes tight manoeuvring very challenging. Both thee factors keep us out of marinas, which is good. 

So far on this journey I've learned we need more solar (but not a lot more), that I have to become a much better diesel mechanic and carry more spares, and that I love living on our boat. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## travlin-easy

Mike, when I read your first post I knew you would really enjoy this live-aboard life. Looking forward to meeting you when you eventually make your way down to the Chesapeake.

Good Luck,

Gary


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## MedSailor

barefootnavigator said:


> All interesting thoughts. I have been contemplating a chart plotter as a fun backup to my paper charts but I will never add a depth sounder, I consider them to be dangerous. Interesting how so many of us have so many different ways to navigate yet we all get there. Btw I may be in SF in October to deliver a friends boat to Wa... BEERS!


I'm going to regret this, but I'll bite. Pray tell why you think they are dangerous? I could see the argument that chartplotters could be dangerous, but I'm scratching my head at how a depthsounder could be dangerous.

Is a leadline also dangerous? 

BTW, I've never owned a chartplotter (until now. New boat came with one.) and never saw the NEED but a friend of mine made a good point. When it's windy and rainy, as it often is up here, not having to mess with keeping the charts dry and keep them from blowing away can be a bonus. I thought that was a valid point for it being more than just a convenience or toy. Still not a need in my book, but I liked his point.

MedSailor


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## UnionPacific

MedSailor said:


> I'm going to regret this, but I'll bite. Pray tell why you think they are dangerous? I could see the argument that chartplotters could be dangerous, but I'm scratching my head at how a depthsounder could be dangerous.


extra hole in the hull? Then you could make an argument for in-hull mounting...


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## newhaul

MedSailor said:


> Is a leadline also dangerous?
> 
> MedSailor


Depends on who is swinging it at whom :laugher:laugher:batter


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## mrhoneydew

I'll hazard a guess that it has to do with a reliance on technology. Both potential inaccuracy and watching the display and not looking at where you're going. Plus, one more electronic gadget to go haywire and leave you without a means to check for depth (if you don't have a back-up).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## barefootnavigator

They are dangerous because most people don't know how to use them, here in the PNW boat yards are littered with boats that have had their keels practically ripped off. Typical answer from captain, I don't know what happen I was using my depth sounder. There is a thread going on right now and well over 80% of posters obviously have no idea hoe they work. When used properly they are a wonderful tool but complexly un necessary. I find the more you stare at mechanical gadgetry the more disconnected form reality you are. When we cruised Mexico Our charts were incredibly un reliable so we gave things a very wide berth, navigated very carefully and were fine unlike the dozens of boats a year down there that hit all manner of things using their chart plotters and depth sounders.


----------



## MedSailor

barefootnavigator said:


> They are dangerous because most people don't know how to use them, here in the PNW boat yards are littered with boats that have had their keels practically ripped off. Typical answer from captain, I don't know what happen I was using my depth sounder. There is a thread going on right now and well over 80% of posters obviously have no idea hoe they work. When used properly they are a wonderful tool but complexly un necessary. I find the more you stare at mechanical gadgetry the more disconnected form reality you are. When we cruised Mexico Our charts were incredibly un reliable so we gave things a very wide berth, navigated very carefully and were fine unlike the dozens of boats a year down there that hit all manner of things using their chart plotters and depth sounders.


Ok I see where you're coming from, but I also don't. If they're a wonderful tool when used properly, why would you not have one? Also, isn't a chart-plotter more distracting and disengaging than a sounder?

Also your comment that 80% of posters on the depth sounder thread don't know how they work? Really? Do you mean the hyper-technical nuances of how they work, or do you mean 80% of posters don't know how to use one? If you're saying that 80% of posters on that thread don't know how to use one then I can't possibly agree with that!

I think you blame the ol' sounder for more than you should. Your statistic, for example, about 90% of boats who run aground had their dept sounder running is specious. I would wager that 99% of cars had brakes at the time of their car accident. Brakes weren't to blame though.

MedSailor


----------



## UnionPacific

barefootnavigator said:


> here in the PNW boat yards are littered with boats that have had their keels practically ripped off.


I love having a real, strong keel. We hit a cement block at 7.5kts, 4" from the bottom of the keel. It made a 2" superficial crack, and nothing more.... except it sent us hurling into whatever was in front of us 

Seriously, a well attached keel is the most important safety feature of a boat that may run aground.


----------



## barefootnavigator

Go read through the thread its both hysterical and frightening at the same time. I'm doing research for a book and work in the marine industry so I'm in many various boatyards almost daily. We use a lead line and no form of electronic navigation so when we are in tricky areas its game on, go slow hand bearing compass and paper charts in hand.

Your car analogy is exactly my point, people crash cars because they are not paying proper attention, same with boats. At the end of the day I love my boat and my life and I protect them both with extreme caution.


----------



## JonEisberg

barefootnavigator said:


> They are dangerous because most people don't know how to use them, here in the PNW boat yards are littered with boats that have had their keels practically ripped off. Typical answer from captain, I don't know what happen I was using my depth sounder. *There is a thread going on right now and well over 80% of posters obviously have no idea hoe they work.* When used properly they are a wonderful tool but complexly un necessary. I find the more you stare at mechanical gadgetry the more disconnected form reality you are. When we cruised Mexico Our charts were incredibly un reliable so we gave things a very wide berth, navigated very carefully and were fine unlike the dozens of boats a year down there that hit all manner of things using their chart plotters and depth sounders.


Got a link to that thread?


----------



## MikeOReilly

I'm all for simplicity, but an electronic sounder is one of the simplest gadgets found on boats. It shows real data in real time. It is far more useful and important than a chartplotter. For gunkholing there's nothing better than to navigate using your sounder. And your comment about unreliable charts simply reinforces the value of a good sounder. Charts can be off, but your sounder will tell you exactly what is happening below your keel. I trust it more than any chart, electronic or paper. 

Most transducers do require a hole in the boat, which is always a concern, but shoot-thru the hull works just fine for solid hulls. And there's always your leadline, which I keep handy. I sailed with just it for one whole season, and just had to revert back for a short while when I had some weeds fouling the transducer. 

I was on that other thread BFN, and I don't get where you pull your "80% don't know they work" number. And while I've only sailed for brief times in the PNW, I don't recall seeing boat yards littered with vessels that had keels practically ripped off. 

Common buddy, you're reaching pretty hard here. 

P.S Medsailior ... this is your fault. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## MedSailor

barefootnavigator said:


> Go read through the thread its both hysterical and frightening at the same time. I'm doing research for a book and work in the marine industry so I'm in many various boatyards almost daily. We use a lead line and no form of electronic navigation so when we are in tricky areas its game on, go slow hand bearing compass and paper charts in hand.
> 
> Your car analogy is exactly my point, people crash cars because they are not paying proper attention, same with boats. At the end of the day I love my boat and my life and I protect them both with extreme caution.


I guess I agree with what you say, in part, but what you preach and what you're doing don't match. I see the point about distraction, but you say you would put a plotter on your boat but not a sounder. That's the main part I don't get.

MedSailor


----------



## JonEisberg

MikeOReilly said:


> I was on that other thread BFN, and I don't get where you pull your "80% don't know they work" number. And while I've only sailed for brief times in the PNW, I don't recall seeing boat yards littered with vessels that had keels practically ripped off.


If he's referring to the "Why does anyone still use a depthfinder?" thread here, yeah, he definitely needs to re-do 4th grade math, or whatever grade they're teaching how to calculate percentages nowadays... 

I think that _"boatyards littered with... blah, blah, blah..."_ may be a PNW affectation... Haven't we heard essentially the same claim from Brent, over and over?


----------



## barefootnavigator

MikeOReilly said:


> I'm all for simplicity, but an electronic sounder is one of the simplest gadgets found on boats. It shows real data in real time. It is far more useful and important than a chartplotter. For gunkholing there's nothing better than to navigate using your sounder. And your comment about unreliable charts simply reinforces the value of a good sounder. Charts can be off, but your sounder will tell you exactly what is happening below your keel. I trust it more than any chart, electronic or paper.
> 
> Most transducers do require a hole in the boat, which is always a concern, but shoot-thru the hull works just fine for solid hulls. And there's always your leadline, which I keep handy. I sailed with just it for one whole season, and just had to revert back for a short while when I had some weeds fouling the transducer.
> 
> I was on that other thread BFN, and I don't get where you pull your "80% don't know they work" number. And while I've only sailed for brief times in the PNW, I don't recall seeing boat yards littered with vessels that had keels practically ripped off.
> 
> Common buddy, you're reaching pretty hard here.
> 
> P.S Medsailior ... this is your fault.
> 
> Why go fast, when you can go slow


Mike your exactly right it shows whats directly under your keel, not one foot in front of it. Example, it shows 10' depth directly beneath you but not uncharted danger one food in front of you. Reading the water will show you much more than a depth sounder ever will.


----------



## barefootnavigator

MedSailor said:


> I guess I agree with what you say, in part, but what you preach and what you're doing don't match. I see the point about distraction, but you say you would put a plotter on your boat but not a sounder. That's the main part I don't get.
> 
> MedSailor


I don't have a plotter on my boat I would consider one to calculate speed and as a learning tool for my newbie girlfriend. I will never add a sounder.


----------



## newhaul

I'm a shipwright in the pnw same stomping grounds as he is and I do not know what yards he is referring to would like names of yards I may be able to get my monthly ten hrs work all winter on that info and yes I have run aground a time or two and I do have a fish finder I should have been using at the time. But I was saving battery to run Nav lights before I got my 3 dollar solar panel


----------



## MikeOReilly

barefootnavigator said:


> Mike your exactly right it shows whats directly under your keel, not one foot in front of it. Example, it shows 10' depth directly beneath you but not uncharted danger one food in front of you. Reading the water will show you much more than a depth sounder ever will.


Yeeees... Still not sure what your criticism is. If you've gone from 100' to 50' to 10' that's a lot of good info. And if you're gunkholing and are following a depth contour to work your way into a nook, then it's perfect. It's an actual piece of real information, as opposed to your chart, or worse your plotter. Both are at least two steps away from reality.

Eyes, general awareness of the nature of the shore, tides, etc. Absolutely! But a depth sounder is a great tool, not just for safety but for actually getting off the eaten path and exploring. I really don't get your take on this (and usually we do agree). Especially when contrasted with your support for chart plotters.

Don't get it...

Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## mrhoneydew

A depth sounder is a tool like any other... if you use it for what it's intended for and not as a crutch it enhances safety and navigation. Unless one has a fancy new forward-looking sonar set-up I'm not sure of any reliable way to see forward at depth. Unless you've got someone in the water going for a swim. And THAT, my friends, is love, dedication, or flat-out crazy! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## barefootnavigator

newhaul said:


> I'm a shipwright in the pnw same stomping grounds as he is and I do not know what yards he is referring to would like names of yards I may be able to get my monthly ten hrs work all winter on that info and yes I have run aground a time or two and I do have a fish finder I should have been using at the time. But I was saving battery to run Nav lights before I got my 3 dollar solar panel


Send me a resume I'll hire you. All good shipwrights I have been refereed to are booked through the end of the year.


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## MedSailor

barefootnavigator said:


> I don't have a plotter on my boat I would consider one to calculate speed and as a learning tool for my newbie girlfriend. I will never add a sounder.


Right. You've said this a couple times now, but you have yet to explain it. It doesn't fit with what you've been saying so far.

Medsailor


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## newhaul

barefootnavigator said:


> Send me a resume I'll hire you. All good shipwrights I have been refereed to are booked through the end of the year.


I'm retired I only do small projects what ya needing done pm me


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## barefootnavigator

MedSailor said:


> Right. You've said this a couple times now, but you have yet to explain it. It doesn't fit with what you've been saying so far.
> 
> Medsailor


You will have to refresh my memory, what did I say? Sorry I must be getting old


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## barefootnavigator

newhaul said:


> I'm retired I only do small projects what ya needing done pm me


I have my PM locked down due to psychopaths flooding it when I strted this thread. Since it has to do with a small budget awesome boat layouts maybe I can put it the projects here?


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## copacabana

Just one question: If you're coming into a new anchorage (alone) and looking for a spot to drop the hook, how would running up to the bow every minute to drop a lead line and get a reading be safer than keeping a hand on the tiller and looking at the depth sounder? Just askin'....


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## newhaul

barefootnavigator said:


> I have my PM locked down due to psychopaths flooding it when I strted this thread. Since it has to do with a small budget awesome boat layouts maybe I can put it the projects here?


Email me at [email protected]


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## MedSailor

MedSailor said:


> I'm going to regret this, but I'll bite...


Sigh.  I never learn.

MedSailor


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## barefootnavigator

copacabana said:


> Just one question: If you're coming into a new anchorage (alone) and looking for a spot to drop the hook, how would running up to the bow every minute to drop a lead line and get a reading safer than keeping a hand on the tiller and looking at the depth sounder? Just askin'....


This sounds like a loaded question but I'll bite.

First off my days of sailing solo are over but when I did I never had any problems. Take a look at some charts for the PNW and you will see lots current lots of hazards and lots of ROOM to be cautious. I use a chart and a hand bearing compass, I read the water and go slow giving a wide berth to anything that looks out of sorts. We use good guidebooks everywhere we go for local and relatively up to date into. I know this might come as a shock to many but reefs don't move, if we bump sand who cares and a depth sounder won't show you the boat that sunk 10 feet on front of you. Again Common sense rules the day. I think one of the huge benefits of the lead line is that we ave moving at half a knot and never chance shallow water. The guy with the depth sounder comes barreling in at 5 knots not really paying attention to anything.

We take great interest in watching people anchor and dock and generally just act like total retards on the water. Ive been grounded this summer due to a sick doggie and sitting around the guest docks all day see the most amazing things. Rarely does a day pass that we don't have a hard collision, Saturday there were three. These are the guys I worry about who never took the time to learn how their boat works, a depth sounder in the hands of these Darwin award contestants is deadly!


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## Capt Len

It almost looks like posters are trying to tie different threads together so I'd like to compare sounders to guns and point out that it's difficult to shoot yourself in the foot without one. Follow the logic?


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## copacabana

Hookie, I really like your blog, but I think you're a bit misguided on the depth sounder!  I also come in slowly, but I'm at the helm to make any course changes based on depth. I have a leadline for back up, which is also great to use from the dinghy to scout out a channel or anchorage. I think if a depth sounder is calibrated, it's pretty much idiot-proof. Anyhow, to each his own! Abraços!


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## JonEisberg

MikeOReilly said:


> Common buddy, you're reaching pretty hard here.


In opposite directions, it would appear...

Always difficult to debate a point, with someone who can't seem to make up his mind...





barefootnavigator said:


> I haven't ran aground in 27 years, the last time I did I had a depth sounder. Since then I have been using a lead line although I really don't use it that often. Sure there are forward facing sonars but I doubt many of us have those. * So with all the excellent charts and charting devices we have these days* is there really any reason to cut another hole in your hull? It seems like a depth sounder is really only good for telling you what you just hit but my guess is by that point you don't need an electrical device to inform you that you are hard aground or sinking.





barefootnavigator said:


> They are dangerous because most people don't know how to use them, here in the PNW boat yards are littered with boats that have had their keels practically ripped off. Typical answer from captain, I don't know what happen I was using my depth sounder. There is a thread going on right now and well over 80% of posters obviously have no idea hoe they work. When used properly they are a wonderful tool but complexly un necessary. I find the more you stare at mechanical gadgetry the more disconnected form reality you are. *When we cruised Mexico Our charts were incredibly un reliable* so we gave things a very wide berth, navigated very carefully and were fine *unlike the dozens of boats a year down there that hit all manner of things using their chart plotters* and depth sounders.


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## Don L

I would have thought on a "$500/mo" thread the would be less holier than tho people.

Guess not, seems only they now can even navigate among other things


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## barefootnavigator

Looks like this thread has been invaded by trolls which is really too bad because it has been such a fun and informative thread. 

Back to the actual art of voyaging on a budget. You get what you pay for. I am in the design process of ordering a whole new suit of Hasse sails. I have been getting reports from friends all over the world on their sails built by Hasse and they are all giving rave reviews. If you want a really good example of voyaging on a small budget read the L500 millionaire.


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## Capt Len

Barefoot, say Hi to Carol from Len (Thane).


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## Don L

barefootnavigator said:


> Looks like this thread has been invaded by trolls which is really too bad because it has been such a fun and informative thread.


Be honest, it mainly is a group rah rah where you can say any crap you want because the group will protect you.

It was you that suggested only you can navigate in Mexico as a way to flame anyone not of the same mind set as yourself.


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## mrhoneydew

Don0190 said:


> Be honest, it mainly is a group rah rah where you can say any crap you want because the group will protect you.
> 
> It was you that suggested only you can navigate in Mexico as a way to flame anyone not of the same mind set as yourself.


If it's so bad why do you even 1. follow it and 2. post? Lots of other threads on sailnet.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Don L

mrhoneydew said:


> If it's so bad why do you even 1. follow it and 2. post? Lots of other threads on sailnet.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


because the amount of hypocrisy is like slowing down to look at a car wreck, you can't stop yourself


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## Tenoch

barefootnavigator said:


> Back to the actual art of voyaging on a budget. You get what you pay for. I am in the design process of ordering a whole new suit of Hasse sails. I have been getting reports from friends all over the world on their sails built by Hasse and they are all giving rave reviews. If you want a really good example of voyaging on a small budget read the L500 millionaire.


Now won't these take about 3 years of your $500/mo. budget? Or do we start the $500/month budget AFTER 8k in sails. (I totally made up that 8k number...but should be somewhere around there for your little cutter, right? - I might have underestimated) 

....but for sure, you wont need to replace them for some time.


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## mrhoneydew

In the course of this thread we have pretty well fleshed out the idea that we all start from different places and have different means. The $500/mo has turned out to be a number to focus the discussion and bring like-minded folks together to talk about frugal cruising. Of course it has attracted trolls who need hard-fast numbers and budgets and certified copies from accounts that show every dime of how voyaging on $500/mo is possible. Without those things, it must not be. Right? Never mind that plenty of people on this thread have attested through their own experience that it is. Initial outfitting tends to lay outside of the $500/mo figure in this discussion (though not for all) because it is assumed that you are not actively voyaging yet and your earning potential is, therefore, greater because you are based in one place. As I said, we are all from different circumstances and means. Some people have more trouble with ambiguity than others.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Don L

rah rah rah

Actually based on the rules of the thread once I start cruising next year it will be $0/mo. You guys are such big spenders.


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## barefootnavigator

Tenoch said:


> Now won't these take about 3 years of your $500/mo. budget? Or do we start the $500/month budget AFTER 8k in sails. (I totally made up that 8k number...but should be somewhere around there for your little cutter, right? - I might have underestimated)
> 
> ....but for sure, you wont need to replace them for some time.


That 8k is closer than you think. We had a minor tragedy this summer and pulled into the mainstream so we are working our asses off to do upgrades before setting off again in the spring. As far as pre departure budget goes Im closer 100K but when we cruise its on a very basic budget. I know that there are many ways to budget lifestyle but you have to start somewhere, when we resume our cruise it will be on a simple brand new 30 year old boat. Btw Our lives have changed dramatically since I started this thread so we are no longer restricted to our small budget, having said that we still do live very frugally.


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## GeorgeB

I appreciate what you are saying BFN as we are in the midst of our own “Freya 4.0” project. We too, are trying to keep from spending like drunken sailors but it is hard not to and our projects list never seems to get shorter. Would you mind telling me what you are doing for that approaching $100k? Where you are saving and where you are spending? Perhaps we can share some info together?


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## JonEisberg

mrhoneydew said:


> In the course of this thread we have pretty well fleshed out the idea that we all start from different places and have different means. The $500/mo has turned out to be a number to focus the discussion and bring like-minded folks together to talk about frugal cruising. Of course it has attracted trolls who need hard-fast numbers and budgets and certified copies from accounts that show every dime of how voyaging on $500/mo is possible. Without those things, it must not be. Right? Never mind that plenty of people on this thread have attested through their own experience that it is. Initial outfitting tends to lay outside of the $500/mo figure in this discussion (though not for all) because it is assumed that you are not actively voyaging yet and your earning potential is, therefore, greater because you are based in one place. As I said, we are all from different circumstances and means. Some people have more trouble with ambiguity than others.


In other words, extended "voyaging" on such a modest budget is only sustainable for the life of your sails, or engine, whichever wears out first... 

Then, one spends a sh_tload of $ to address whatever repair or replacement issue - which doesn't _'count'_ as a budgetary expense - then you hit the Reset Button, and voyaging on a bare bones budget begins anew?

Damn, that's...


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## barefootnavigator

That is including the cost of the boat and she is a pricy little sucker. My total expense is in rig, sails, spars... We have no electrons or fancy gadgets. Basically we have built a new boat minus the Hull. We chose to go small and simple for many reasons that don't matter but could have easily gone up to 40' on what we have and are spending. We all go about things differently and we are the odd ducks for sure but love and trust our little boat. When I found my partner I looked into finding a boat that was more suited for my tiny framed girlfriend but couldn't find a better boat.


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## mrhoneydew

JonEisberg said:


> In other words, extended "voyaging" on such a modest budget is only sustainable for the life of your sails, or engine, whichever wears out first...
> 
> Then, one spends a sh_tload of $ to address whatever repair or replacement issue - which doesn't _'count'_ as a budgetary expense - then you hit the Reset Button, and voyaging on a bare bones budget begins anew?
> 
> Damn, that's...


And here we go again... back to the same old, tired issues people have had with this thread since January. To re-cap: nobody ever said once we untie the lines, that's it. If you can't voyage on $500/mo you'd better hang it up. If you have to stop and earn $ along the way, so be it. That's just life. It's prudent to start with $ in the bank as a cushion and for emergencies. That's just common sense. It's about a lifestyle and stretching what you have as far and as long as possible rather than waiting until you have "enough" to leave "someday." There are still places in the world one can go and not come close to spending $500/mo. Does that mean if by the 30th of the month you have only spent $300 for that month that you should then go blow $200 on booze, hookers, and coke just to stay on budget (for the purposes of this example let's assume we're in, I don't know, Thailand? )? Of course not. That just extends your cruise time before you need to refill the kitty. What if on the 25th you have spent your $500 budgeted for the month and you find yourself completely out of food, water, fuel, and your battery bank decided to go south without you? Oh my! Better lay there in your bunk achored out somewhere for free until the 1st and hope you don't die in the meantime. It's a gamble, but anything to stick to the "rules" of this thread! Good grief. I suppose if one is the sort that will only untie the lines when they feel like they can support themselves on savings and financial assets until they die the ideas and thoughts shared in this thread must be hard to get their head around. I choose to pay more attention to the people actually doing it. Go small, go simple, go now.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## barefootnavigator

mrhoneydew said:


> And here we go again... back to the same old, tired issues people have had with this thread since January. To re-cap: nobody ever said once we untie the lines, that's it. If you can't voyage on $500/mo you'd better hang it up. If you have to stop and earn $ along the way, so be it. That's just life. It's prudent to start with $ in the bank as a cushion and for emergencies. That's just common sense. It's about a lifestyle and stretching what you have as far and as long as possible rather than waiting until you have "enough" to leave "someday." There are still places in the world one can go and not come close to spending $500/mo. Does that mean if by the 30th of the month you have only spent $300 for that month that you should then go blow $200 on booze, hookers, and coke just to stay on budget (for the purposes of this example let's assume we're in, I don't know, Thailand? )? Of course not. That just extends your cruise time before you need to refill the kitty. What if on the 25th you have spent your $500 budgeted for the month and you find yourself completely out of food, water, fuel, and your battery bank decided to go south without you? Oh my! Better lay there in your bunk achored out somewhere for free until the 1st and hope you don't die in the meantime. It's a gamble, but anything to stick to the "rules" of this thread! Good grief. I suppose if one is the sort that will only untie the lines when they feel like they can support themselves on savings and financial assets until they die the ideas and thoughts shared in this thread must be hard to get their head around. I choose to pay more attention to the people actually doing it. Go small, go simple, go now.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Simply brilliant!


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## Tenoch

mrhoneydew said:


> Does that mean if by the 30th of the month you have only spent $300 for that month that you should then go blow $200 on booze, hookers, and coke just to stay on budget (for the purposes of this example let's assume we're in, I don't know, Thailand? )? Of course not. That just extends your cruise time before you need to refill the kitty.


If you aren't cruising frugally so that you have extra money for booze, hookers, and blow...then there's no point.


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## Minnesail

mrhoneydew said:


> you should then go blow $200 on booze, hookers, and coke


OK, that took fifteen minutes. Now how do I pay for the rest of the evening?


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## barefootnavigator

Minnesail said:


> OK, that took fifteen minutes. Now how do I pay for the rest of the evening?


Rehab, penicillin and confession


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## JonEisberg

mrhoneydew said:


> And here we go again... back to the same old, tired issues people have had with this thread since January. To re-cap: nobody ever said once we untie the lines, that's it. If you can't voyage on $500/mo you'd better hang it up. If you have to stop and earn $ along the way, so be it. That's just life. It's prudent to start with $ in the bank as a cushion and for emergencies. That's just common sense. It's about a lifestyle and stretching what you have as far and as long as possible rather than waiting until you have "enough" to leave "someday." There are still places in the world one can go and not come close to spending $500/mo. Does that mean if by the 30th of the month you have only spent $300 for that month that you should then go blow $200 on booze, hookers, and coke just to stay on budget (for the purposes of this example let's assume we're in, I don't know, Thailand? )? Of course not. That just extends your cruise time before you need to refill the kitty. What if on the 25th you have spent your $500 budgeted for the month and you find yourself completely out of food, water, fuel, and your battery bank decided to go south without you? Oh my! Better lay there in your bunk achored out somewhere for free until the 1st and hope you don't die in the meantime. It's a gamble, but anything to stick to the "rules" of this thread! Good grief. I suppose if one is the sort that will only untie the lines when they feel like they can support themselves on savings and financial assets until they die the ideas and thoughts shared in this thread must be hard to get their head around. I choose to pay more attention to the people actually doing it. Go small, go simple, go now.


Well, the "rules"/parameters of the budget in question were defined quite specifically, in the initial post:



barefootnavigator said:


> I'm setting off again in a few months with a reasonably well stocked boat and hoping to live quite well on $1,200.00 for a the full six months I plan to cruise this year...
> 
> My end goal once I'm free to head offshore is a $6,000.00 per year budget...


"Go small, go simple, go now" is my mantra, as well... Whenever I manage to get out there, mine is generally the smallest boat pretty much everywhere I go, my style tends to be pretty minimalist, and I travel with a boat very well stocked in advance... You wouldn't want to be buying something like engine oil where I went this summer, for instance 

I managed to get away for about 10 weeks from July to September, much of it spent in a place where the only way one could spend $ would be to toss it overboard...










Sadly, I'm still unable to report that the overall total of expenditures averaged out to anything remotely close to $200/month, much less the far more generous estimate of $500 per for an open-ended cruise... Although, if I was like the guy cited awhile ago with the "Dickerson 47", and wasn't counting the cost of diesel fuel as among my expenses, I could have come considerably closer... 

Now, maybe it's just me who would have been unable to go where I did without exceeding those targets... However, I tend to doubt it...


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## mrhoneydew

JonEisberg said:


> Well, the "rules"/parameters of the budget in question were defined quite specifically, in the initial post:


I think that's probably one of the main differences here... I never took the numbers barefoot listed in the initial post as gospel. Just simply as what he was going on for his intended time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Capt Len

Since I retired in '72 and started my project (which was approximately 12 grand over 5 years.) I've been coastal cruising. This is lifestyle,,, which includes finding the wherewithal to support vessel, improvements to vessel and living a good life. Not an accountant so didn't keep tabs. (knot anally retentive either) Thane supported me and my partner for 40 years and enabled me to enjoy my chosen existence. Sailing was the game and excess money just a way of keeping score. ( buying rental properties and flying to Asia for the winter) Unless one is completely helpless or drugged a moderately sharp knife can cut the cheese on a low budget . (sorry , wrong metaphor, but it's fun to poke with a shtick)


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## aeventyr60

Minnesail said:


> OK, that took fifteen minutes. Now how do I pay for the rest of the evening?


More like 50 bucks, so you get to do it all over again, that is if your able....


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## pinayreefer

A lot of what I hear here is folks making excuses for not going cruising. $500/month or whatever, no doubt it's cheaper to live on a boat in a nice marina than it would be to stay in an overpriced house with a big mortgage and interest on everything you touch. At least it is for us. We've all heard the joke that the definition of a boat is a hole in the water..... but I've found that a house is an even bigger hole....... And from what I've seen, it's either living on land or on the water. Do your own math.


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## Don L

pinayreefer said:


> no doubt it's cheaper to live on a boat in a nice marina than it would be to stay in an overpriced house with a big mortgage and interest on everything you touch. Do your own math.


Maybe, but having the house is how I can live in a location that allows me to work at a job that pays to have the boat, plus the house, plus putting money into retirement accounts, plus putting extra $2k/mo into savings.

Far as the math, I spent much more on the boat last year than I did on the house (even including the cable bill) and my boat is on a mooring.


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## JonEisberg

pinayreefer said:


> A lot of what I hear here is folks making excuses for not going cruising. $500/month or whatever, no doubt it's cheaper to live on a boat in a nice marina than it would be to stay in an overpriced house with a big mortgage and interest on everything you touch. At least it is for us. We've all heard the joke that the definition of a boat is a hole in the water..... but I've found that a house is an even bigger hole....... And from what I've seen, it's either living on land or on the water. Do your own math.


Seems you might be overlooking one minor detail... Real estate typically being an appreciating asset, and boats being quite the opposite...

The purchase of a home or other real estate can often be a very savvy _INVESTMENT_ that can reap quite a handsome financial reward over the life of its use as a domicile...

Boats, on the other hand - usually not so much... 

Do you really suppose the OP will ever get back that $100K he's put into his 22-footer, should he ever decide to sell? Much less realize any gain on his investment? Keep in mind, Lin and Larry Pardey's legendary TALIESEN has been on the market now for quite some time, the asking price has plummeted to $125K, and still no takers...

Not to mention, living aboard in a marina doesn't generally go hand in hand with what most folks consider to be "voyaging"...


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## MikeOReilly

Don0190 said:


> Be honest, it mainly is a group rah rah where you can say any crap you want because the group will protect you.
> 
> It was you that suggested only you can navigate in Mexico as a way to flame anyone not of the same mind set as yourself.


Did someone wake up craky? Can I suggest a nap. Seriously Don, all you do is come across pitiful, angry and somewhat spiteful. Stop wallowing in frustration and anger and go cruising. Your boat is ready. You appear to have more money than any of us, so go. Some of us are out there now on budgets way below your $3000/month, and a few of us are approaching the nirvana of $500. So go man go.

Then come back and tell us how it can't be done.

Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## travlin-easy

WOW! Just catching up on the thread this morning. Had to read four pages to do this, but I'm amazed, like Mike, at the cranky posts. Cruising is supposed to be fun and exciting, and for the most part it is. Sure, there's an expense involved, but it does not have to be excessive.

Now, someone said that living in a house is more expensive than living aboard in a marina. Yep, if you do the real math, it definitely is more expensive to live in your home. And, Jon, it's not all that good of an investment - history shows us that stocks and bonds pay far higher dividends, and the risk is about the same.

You can purchase a great, used boat for about $20,000, one that is more than adequate to live aboard. The last time you could purchase a home for $20,000 was sometime around 1965. Now, that house is worth $250,000 today, but you really don't own it - the state government owns it. Don't think so - try not paying those hefty real estate taxes and you'll quickly find out. You also had to pay a lot for utilities, upkeep, insurance, etc... So when you total the cost of home ownership it's a lot more than living aboard in a marina located somewhere in the tropics, including the repairs, utilities, insurance, etc...

My wife and I will be driving down to the Florida Keys this winter and spending three months there - damned I hate winters in Maryland. The cost will likely be about $1,000 a week to live in a rental house. I can rent a slip in an upscale marina for about $750 a month in the same area, and that includes electricity and water. Unfortunately, my loving spouse of more than a half century doesn't enjoy living aboard the boat. In fact, I checked the records from my last trip to the keys in the boat and I spent less than $1,000 on fuel to get there and I had to motor a lot on the ICW. The trip was 1,150 miles one way. If I would have had favorable weather conditions, and hurricane Sandy would not have arrived, I would have sailed down the coast and inlet hopped the entire trip. 

Now, I did manage to blow some money in marina restaurants, and to be perfectly honest, the food, overall, was mediocre at best, and frequently lousy. Also, marina restaurant food tends to be overpriced. I can purchase a great, roasted chicken at BJ's Wholesale Club for $5.99, fully cooked, fat and very tasty. Add a couple veggies to that and for around $10, including a tall Margaretta, you have a great dinner. That same dinner at any marina restaurant will cost you three times that much, and the chicken will amount to a single, chicken breast. No thanks. 

During the two months it took for me to get to the Florida Keys, I only made two grocery store runs, neither of which cost me more than $150, including the booze mixers. I was able to pay for this by playing music at a couple of the marina bars and the tips were more than enough to buy the food for the entire trip. My Social Security income covered all the other expenses with money to spare. Yeah, I'm that old!

So, for all you naysayers, get off your @sses and DO IT! Don't be like most of the people I've known in my life that said "Gee, I wish I would have done that." Just DO IT! Go cruising, live on the hook while enjoying all that nature has to offer. YOU CAN DO IT! And, you don't need to be independently wealthy to do exactly what many of us have done for so many years.

Gary


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## Capt Len

Gary, really nice condos on the beach in Thailand are a quarter that price and restaurant costs are so low as to not count. Weather is nicer as are the locals. Medical is better and more affordable. Even a bottom feeder like me has been doing it for 20 years while others work their unimaginative butts off to pay my mortgages and then some. Living aboard and sailing summers has been better than just lucrative ,it's been fun.(and I don't even have any musical skills) I'd do it all over again if only I could but had to sell my $12 thous boat (+sweat equity) for +160 and grow tomatoes for fun and little profit. If there's a morel here it's don't wait , do it. Hell AND high water awaits.


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## JonEisberg

travlineasy said:


> Now, someone said that living in a house is more expensive than living aboard in a marina. Yep, if you do the real math, it definitely is more expensive to live in your home. And, Jon, it's not all that good of an investment - history shows us that stocks and bonds pay far higher dividends, and the risk is about the same.


Of course living on a modest boat in a marina can be cheaper... Hell, living in a van down by the river is even cheaper, still... 

But that's hardly the point I was addressing. Buying a home is _usually_ a far better _INVESTMENT_ - from a purely longer term, overall financial perspective, than the purchase of a boat...

Of course, 'investing' in a boat can pay dividends in one's quality of life that are impossible to quantify, there's absolutely no denying that... But in terms of a more 'holistic' approach to financial planning, I'd caution against taking too seriously the advice of a financial analyst who believes boats (or a van, for that matter) are likely to be better investments than houses...


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## mrhoneydew

Guess I'm in the "can't take it with you" crowd. Had a house years ago and the maintenance was far more time consuming between the yard and house. Had the well-paying desk job too. Neither of which was worth my soul. Bought my dumpy little boat for $3250 a year ago and have been making improvements myself at my own pace. At the time I bought it my rent for my 1 bedroom apartment was $840. My moorage is $315. Over the past year I have saved $6300 just on the place to hang my hat alone. I doubt I have spent $1000 on materials I have put into the boat so far. Insurance is an expense (less than $100/mo) but far less than on an expensive boat. When I am done I doubt I would have trouble getting $15000 out of the boat--I do quality work. Not knocking six-figure boats... to each their own... but should something happen to mine, from damage to total loss, I'm not out much and it's not hard to imagine starting over. I have no need or desire for luxury--a solid, clean, well-maintained boat is enough. I think that's a hard concept for the cranky folks to swallow. We're supposed to work and work and want and want and consume and consume in this culture. The more you have equals the more successful you are. Anything less must mean you're a slacker and/or a dirtbag. But dead is dead and it's difficult to see the scoreboard from 6 feet under. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GeorgeB

I can run my laptop off of my 12v system, but how do you guys who live off the grid keep things like camera batteries recharged?


----------



## newhaul

GeorgeB said:


> I can run my laptop off of my 12v system, but how do you guys who live off the grid keep things like camera batteries recharged?


I use my 5buck solar spotlights they use two AA batteries and have an off switch I have two sets of camera/GPS batteries and swap as needed just leave that light turned off only takes a good sunny day to recharge or two cloudy ones


----------



## Andrew65

GeorgeB said:


> I can run my laptop off of my 12v system, but how do you guys who live off the grid keep things like camera batteries recharged?


I'm not trying to be funny about my answer, but you have to plan a little ahead. Living on board hanging on a buoy, I have to plan ahead i.e. carrying my phone charger with me and plugging into a convenient outlet. I have a small solar charger which most easier to keep ahead. Planning ahead is the only way to do it.


----------



## copacabana

George, I use a small 200w inverter (cheap one) just for charging things like mobile phones and cameras. It plugs into a standard cigarette lighter which I have at the nav table. It works great and uses very little power, but you have to have the 12v power to begin with.


----------



## GeorgeB

So if I am off the grid in the Sea of Cortez for a month, I'm SOL when the camera Battery runs low?

Copa, I was hoping not to have to go the inverter way which for me would be swapping out my current charger for an inverter.


----------



## mrhoneydew

Not if you have some means of solar charging. Sounds like you can get a pretty minimal set-up that would suit your needs. Small solar panel, small inverter and/or a solar battery charger.


----------



## Andrew65

Not necessarily. Oyama maxi solar charger fully charged is enough to charge 2 mobiles. Check it out. Don't know if it'll work for a camera , but it's worth a check.


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## mrhoneydew

One example of which there are several:

12V DC to 120V AC & USB 5V DC Cigarette Lighter Power Inverter


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## JonEisberg

GeorgeB said:


> So if I am off the grid in the Sea of Cortez for a month, I'm SOL when the camera Battery runs low?
> 
> Copa, I was hoping not to have to go the inverter way which for me would be swapping out my current charger for an inverter.


What sort of camera? A little poking around, you should be able to find a charger that runs off 12V, I have one for each of my Nikons, for instance... Just do a search under your camera for a "Travel" or "Car Charger", chances are on eBay you'll have one shipped from Hong Kong free, for something like $10.99...

If you're really counting amps, you should try to avoid using an inverter at all costs, they're generally quite inefficient... Basic rule of thumb on my boat, if it can't be powered or charged with a 12V outlet, I don't want it aboard... That goes for computers, iPads, phones, handheld searchlights, TV and DVD player, cordless tools, everything...

Of course, you still want an inverter for the odd emergency or unanticipated use, but to rely on them routinely, you're just throwing those precious amps away...

Don't take my word for it, listen to someone who _REALLY_ knows what he's talking about 

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electronics/122929-ipad-charging-12v-vs-inverter.html


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## newhaul

Here's another way to do it UltraLast Green ULGSOLAR Solar Charger by Office Depot


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## MikeOReilly

All the infernal USB items, ithings, computers and other small batteries are becoming a growing challenge. This year I tracked down 12 volt direct chargers for all our various doodads and it has made a big difference vs using the inverter. With this system our main ship's solar and wind generators can pretty well keep up with the demands. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## Don L

well, go simple and get rid of all these computer and electronic "things"

isn't that the thread?


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## newhaul

nope that's the why use a depth sounder thread


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## JonEisberg

Don0190 said:


> well, go simple and get rid of all these computer and electronic "things"
> 
> isn't that the thread?


Uhhh, not necessarily...

There are many instances where gizmos such as computers and having internet access can easily lead to cost savings over the long run...

Electronic charts, for those comfortable relying on them instead of paper, is but one example that comes to mind...


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## newhaul

JonEisberg said:


> Uhhh, not necessarily...
> 
> There are many instances where gizmos such as computers and having internet access can easily lead to cost savings over the long run...
> 
> Electronic charts, for those comfortable relying on them instead of paper, is but one example that comes to mind...


that's very true here is a good link for the USA
NOAA announces free nautical 'BookletCharts' for boaters


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## dwedeking

It's impressive how successful the marketing/societal pressures work on how you must fit in, conform, and 'need' more than you need. I went from living a "normal" life in 2008 to downsizing to a pretty minimalistic lifestyle in 2014. For me (and this is a personal item, and your mileage might vary) but living well under my means has increased the quality of life vs trying to have what everyone else has. 

It's interesting to look at how many services people purchase in Suburbia USA that cost $50 - $100 a month. When I talk to friends/family members in the States about budgets (as the minimalistic freak is always a conversation starter lol) you'd be amazed at how these services they don't even think about easily make up the $500/mo budget we're talking about here. 

Don, has every right to choose to live the way he lives, and is willing to trade where he lives, where he works, and the sacrifices he makes to achieve that dream. In my opinion, for myself, I'd be sucking on a tequilla bottle every night and end up eating a bullett if I had to go back to living in a cubicle house, working in a cubicle job, etc. There's just people out there that don't fit in to that scenario. 

With my limited means (I make medium money by US standards) I can't afford to have a house/single location and do all the traveling/moving that my personality demands of me. So I had to choose. 

Technology allows me to work remotely, which means I can pick locations that fit my particular point of the journey. Currently I'm living in Mexico, at under $1000/month budget, with my extra income going towards purchasing a boat. The location is so/so (I like living on the beach but prefer more tropical) but the cost of living is so low it will allow me to build a cruising kitty. 

My reason for purchasing a boat (other than love of the sea) is because I enjoy moving to new locations every 2 or 3 years. Currently I rent furnished places where I want to live, but owning a boat will allow me to move without either paying shipping costs/moving costs or having to start over at each new location (pots/pans etc, things that are borderline on whether the expense of new items is too much vs dragging them onto a plane). So there are practical choices I've made (am making) to why a sailboat works for my circumstances/personality. 

One thing, that I don't think non-minimalists get, is how you look at purchases differently. When I was in normal society, I would look at "can I afford this? yes - I want, must buy. no - damn, I need to get more $$ so I can buy". Now, I look at something and think "that will make things a little easier, will buy" but then I usually turn back within a couple of aisles and put it back, thinking "ahh, that regular tool will work for now". 

In regards to provisions, to help with a budget you really need to "eat locally". American has a wonderful luxury of being able to walk into a grocery store and shop by "chinese food section", "mexican food section" and get the ingredients for dishes from all over the world. When you live in different spots you'll find those items are cost prohibitive. When I lived in Hawaii I ate a lot of stirfry, as the large asian population make these the items grown locally. You could get almost anything, but a lot of exotic stuff was shipped from the Mainland and so cost more. Or those items aren't to be found. In Mexico I can't find thick cut pepper bacon like you can in almost any supermarket in the states. So you choose to live without it and use local items instead. Thinking that your going to move around the world and find your brand of XYZ product at every location and stay in a budget is not logical. 

One thing I haven't seen is how are people working taxes (if you have passive income or work online like I do)? I know I did a year stay in Las Vegas to set up residency there (no income tax at state level) which is a couple $100 a month into the kitty.


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## pinayreefer

I really do wish all houses appreciate in value, but after 2008.......... it just ain't so. 
I recall telling a friend that I was going to Paris to visit and that I'd found a campground within site of the Eiffel Tower to stay. She told me that if she couldn't stay in a 5 star hotel, she wouldn't even go! Stay home and watch it on tv then! Now don't think I won't spend money on things that really, I mean really enhance my life. I love tent camping, and when I discovered a nice open celled sleeping pad, it was worth the cost, as it made my nights sleeping and staying warm so much better. Many other things can be just so much junk though.


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## Bob142

Another reason to live simply...


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## newhaul

Good vid but what does it have to do with frugal cruising its all about the "evils of" mass marketing and has little to do with frugal living


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## newhaul

Here's something I got in my email today looks like a great way to light the cockpit in the evening on the hook Big 5 Sporting Goods


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## Minnesail

newhaul said:


> Here's something I got in my email today looks like a great way to light the cockpit in the evening on the hook Big 5 Sporting Goods


I bought one of those at the State Fair this year! I had a coupon, I think it was $10 or $12.










Anyway, I've only used it once on the boat, but it was kinda neat. It has loops on the top and bottom. I tied a light line to the bottom loop and tied it off to the boat and let it float around off the stern. It added a nice ambience. It was also fun to toss it around the cockpit and cabin kind of like a little glowing beach ball.

I meant to take it with me on my recent charter trip and tie it off the same way. I figured it would make it easier to find the right boat when dinghying back at night, and would provide just a little illumination for tying up the dinghy and getting back on board, but alas I forgot to pack it.

I think I'm going to get a couple more.


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## christian.hess

whats up guys? hope all is well with all you...

hope to get this thread going again 

peace


----------



## MikeOReilly

Hi Christian, thanks for the prod. I've been meaning to post something for a while now in the hopes that we can get things rolling again. We're kind of in a _life-interrupted_ period right now. We began our new life/journey this past summer, traveling from the western shores of Lake Superior over to the eastern edge of Lake Ontario. It was a ~1500nm journey that had us living full-time on our boat for over three months. Sadly, we're back on land for at least one more Canadian winter, and the boat is all tucked away until April.

Here are a few observations so far:

*Self-tailing winches:* They make working our headsails so much better. 
*Composting head:* Absolutely wonderful addition. Worked great. I'm convinced it is an absolute no-brainer for frugal boats with crews of two. 
*Light-airs sails:* We all talk about the need for storm sails, and heavy-weather gear. For the frugal sailor a far more important addition is good light-airs sails. We spent more than 1/2 our time flying our light nylon drifter in place of our heavier yankee. We also have a small asymmetrical spinnaker (genniker). I'm looking into expanding our light sail compliment.
*Stove/oven: *We installed a new Force-10 propane stove/oven. I wasn't sure if the oven would be worth it -- I was wrong! We used it all the time to make fresh bread, make various melts and sandwiches, and roast many foods from fish to full chickens. 
*AIS receiver:* It was definitely a useful tool when travelling through busy shipping channels. However, in many ways, it was the small _zippy_ boats that were the biggest challenge when travelling through populated areas. 
*Self-steering:* Our combination of windvane and tiller pilot meant we rarely had to hand-steer. Reliable self-steering is a must.

And finally, I learned that I need to know a lot more about diesel engines, AND we need to carry more spares. All our significant problems on this journey centred around our Perkins. I now know a lot more than I did before ... and obviously I need to learn even more .


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## christian.hess

hey mike!

x2 on your comments...people often forget how damn important light air sails are, for the most part people sail in more beningn conditions than stormy conditions especially today with the advantage of so much WX INFO and sources

so why not carry light sails?

guess what? diesel engine work is the crux of many a cruiser,NOT SAILS or sail related...

you rarely see a dismasting when cruising

YOU ALWAYS SEE A DEFUNCT OR AN ENGINE IN NEED OF REPAIR

ALWAYS

hence why knowing engines and being a good mechanic is a great way to cruise and make money while cruising

beleive me not every cruiser out there knows their engine inside and out, so why not know more than the average cruiser so you can always help out and or make a $$(this is the 500 a month thread after all)

anywhoo

glad to see your doing fine despite the engine work

perkins arent all that bad really

they do have intersting non catastrophic leaks here and there but so do old nortons and tripumphs and such

jajajaja


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## travlin-easy

Believe me, I DO know my A4 inside and out. And, if I were younger and stronger, I would be able to rebuild it if needed. But, at my age, 74, I'm too damned old to wrestle a heavy engine out of a very tight engine room.  

X2 on the light air and self steering comments. And, I already have the same stove/oven combo on my Morgan - I love it! 

Cheers,

Gary


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## Capt Len

I've given up on engine wrestling a few years back too. but a big part of cash type income was trouble shooting and repair of OPB's .It's usually the little mysteries that require some knowledge of how it should work and observational skills for why it doesn't . These don't take up a lot of room on a small boat and are the best thing you can pack for trips beyond the pail.


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## windnrock

A great deal of the cost saving measures I have taken on my 41' Bristol recently has been to locate non manufacture parts for my Westerbeke. Other than the heat exchanger, which can actually be anyone's, the only other components that are really Westerbeke's, are the exhaust manifold and the flywheel. The engine is an Isuzu and parts through them are a half to a third of what Westerbeke wants. Other components, raw water pump (Johnson), lift pump (BalKamp), engine fuel filter (Sierra), Damper plate (I use an R&D replacement) and air filter (went to a remote filter, out of the compartment) cost as little as 1/10th Westerbek's prices and are in many cases, the exact same part! While not all engine manufactures are as greedy as Westerbeke, many parts like pumps and filters are OEM from other sources. My savings, replacements and adding spares is into the thousands of dollars. The fuel lift pump is $270 with Westerbeke and about $65 at NAPA. Same part, same manufacturer. A new Johnson raw water pump is cheaper than a Westerbeke rebuild kit. 
The other savings is fuel. We use diesel, gasoline and propane. By planing more for wind and current, sailing more and running solar (400w) as well as a wind generator (400w max) we have reduced our diesel to the point we removed one 45 gal tank. Planning our trips to shore and positioning our boat as close as possible makes rowing the dinghy more likely. We use a pressure cooker and use AC devices to cook rice, bread and coffee that only burn electricity we get through our panels and gen. Our LPG use for the last 6 months has been less than 20 lbs. 
All this cost money to start, very true but it is paying off subsequently. The panels, (4)100w Grape Solar single crystal available through COSTCO were $185 apiece. That's only $1.85 per watt! They have performed perfectly for three years, show little to no sign of corrosion or flaws and on a good sunny day give us 20 amps/hr. The wind gen I am less happy with. A Silentwind that, when it works, works well and very quietly. However, once a year the bearings go bad. I'm replacing the OEM Peer Bearings, made in China, with NSK (made in Japan) and will see if it lasts longer.
By reducing our maintenance costs and fuel costs we are able to maintain our budget. While I refuse to cut corners on my beer or Scotch, we manage to stay away from marinas and moorings (unless they are free!) 
For the future we are looking at adding 2 more hard panels, as they are more efficient, and possibly flexible panels mid deck, as they are walk-able and tolerate shading better. Batteries are a big cost and I hope the development and cost go up and down respectively. I would love to get feedback on AGM brands and performance to cost. Right now we have a 750 ah house bank. Six 12 volt Lifeline 125 ah. They have done well so far but they won't last forever.
Many people just don't know how to sail in light air. Trim is key. Using the dozen or so tools to shape your sails is how you fly the interface! If I make five knots to someone's six, who is on engine, I will arrive (in 50 miles)about an hour and a half later, but $30 or more better off!

"Sun sights are great 'cause its the easiest star to find"


----------



## MikeOReilly

Thanks guys, I'm certainly learning the hard (and expensive) way about all things diesel. At this rate of break down and repair, I expect to become an expert in a few short years . All this brings to mind a very early conversation I had with a mechanic when dealing with another problem on a different engine (an A4). He was trying to explain to me how easy most engines are, and that all it takes is some basic skills: "Anyone can learn to do it!" he confidently told me. He then asked what I did for a living. "I'm a writer," I proudly answered. He looked at me somewhat sadly, shook his head, and then said, "Well, _almost_ anyone can do it."

... but I'm learning .

windnrock, you bring up solar. That was another thing that worked really well on our boat. I installed 100 W of semi-flex panels before we took off. They performed admirably. I'm planning to install at least another 100, maybe 150 Watts next Spring. With just the 100 W we are close to being completely self-sufficient with our charging when combined with our wind generator (also a Silentwind ... so far, no bearing problems). The added solar should be all I need.

I'm planning to build a bimini out of solar panels; no sunbrella cover, just use the panels directly onto a frame. Anyone do this?


----------



## travlin-easy

Mike, I ran across a guy in the Florida Keys that built a hardtop bimini, then added a couple 500-watt panels to it. Looked fantastic, very practical and it really didn't cost him much to construct it.










Hope this helps,

Gary


----------



## Tallswede

Mike, let me guess were most of your Perkins problems fuel lift pump related? A good friend of mine with a Beneteau 32 w Perkins has had problems with his. We bought an after market electric pump and bypassed the multi failing Perkins pump with good results.

Kevin


----------



## MikeOReilly

travlineasy said:


> Mike, I ran across a guy in the Florida Keys that built a hardtop bimini, then added a couple 500-watt panels to it. Looked fantastic, very practical and it really didn't cost him much to construct it.


Thanks Gary. Looks like a good set up. My idea is to have have a normal bimini frame, but use only the panels as the roof. It would act as a good sun shelter (for my balding Celtic head), but provide a necessary platform for more panels.



Tallswede said:


> Mike, let me guess were most of your Perkins problems fuel lift pump related? A good friend of mine with a Beneteau 32 w Perkins has had problems with his. We bought an after market electric pump and bypassed the multi failing Perkins pump with good results.


Actually, that was our first thought. We replaced the lift pump, and it seemed to solve the problem for a while, but then it came back. We were getting diesel into the crank case (making oil!). But it was intermittent. Turns out the real problem was a diaphragm in the injector pump. We had problems with the injector pump earlier in our trip as well, so I suspect when fixing the first problem we created the second. Typical...

I'm planning to set up an electric lift pump as well, but in the end it seems the issue was the high pressure pump.


----------



## christian.hess

travlineasy said:


> Believe me, I DO know my A4 inside and out. And, if I were younger and stronger, I would be able to rebuild it if needed. But, at my age, 74, I'm too damned old to wrestle a heavy engine out of a very tight engine room.
> 
> X2 on the light air and self steering comments. And, I already have the same stove/oven combo on my Morgan - I love it!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


I know you do GARY

x2 on the age thing

do what makes cruising your age the easiest and most fulfilling

if that means going electric do it

if that means using a new beta with easy access to all routine service do it

if that means going engineless on a wooden boat a la taleisin DO IT

jajaja


----------



## windnrock

Hey Mike, this is what we did. $1800 for the arch and we can tilt the panels fore and aft. It actually can make a huge difference. If it looks a bit different, it is. The arch is forward of the backstay. I designed it that way so we would get the benefit of the "bimini effect" and it would interfere less with the Hydrovane.


----------



## travlin-easy

Good looking arch! How much $?

Gary


----------



## MikeOReilly

windnrock said:


> Hey Mike, this is what we did. $1800 for the arch and we can tilt the panels fore and aft. It actually can make a huge difference. If it looks a bit different, it is. The arch is forward of the backstay. I designed it that way so we would get the benefit of the "bimini effect" and it would interfere less with the Hydrovane.


Interesting ... where did you source the arch? Or did you build it yourself?

Our arrangement will have to be similar. Our backstay goes down to a boomkin, which also holds our windmill and windvane (Aries). The bimini frame is going to have to be forward of all that.


----------



## windnrock

The arch was my own design. After being told by several "tower" builders that they wouldn't be able to do the large base plates or beefy angle braces but they could build something like it, starting at $5000, in aluminum! I went looking elsewhere. I contacted Mike at S&S Marine in Norfolk, VA. His response to my emailed drawings was,"We can build that." They did an incredible job with beautiful welds and stellar service. They came out with the base plates tacked and fit it to my deck, took it back and completed the welding. The arch holds (4) 100 watt solar panels, a wind generator and a custom mount for my dinghy motor that I fabricated along with a hoist. It stores the 15 hp inside the arch. The basic arch cost $1800 including the wind gen mast. The panel rack, which pivots, was another couple of hundred. We installed a single stainless tube support on the front which folds up out of the way or holds the leading edge of a simple bimini cloth that attaches to the arch. I wanted (and got) leg bases that were 4-1/2" in diameter and 1/4" thick with similar sized backing plates. Each leg is held down with (3) 5/16" bolts. Because there is some movement in the arch and a bit of flex in any boat I mounted it with butyl rubber.
The arch also has two LED light bars, a 12v power outlet and the antena for our wifi booster. 
We have been very pleased with the construction, usefulness and good looks of this arch. S&S also fabricated some 13' stainless grab rails to replace the teak ones that were shot, again, beautiful.


----------



## mbianka

MikeOReilly said:


> windnrock, you bring up solar. That was another thing that worked really well on our boat. I installed 100 W of semi-flex panels before we took off. They performed admirably. I'm planning to install at least another 100, maybe 150 Watts next Spring. With just the 100 W we are close to being completely self-sufficient with our charging when combined with our wind generator (also a Silentwind ... so far, no bearing problems). The added solar should be all I need.
> 
> I'm planning to build a bimini out of solar panels; no sunbrella cover, just use the panels directly onto a frame. Anyone do this?


Mike:
A number of years ago when the original dodger material gave up I replaced it with two 75 watt 12 volt Siemens solar panels. When I converted to electric propulsion I added tow 48 volt Kanaka panels by building a Bimini that connected to the exsiting dodger. I used a single Sailrite frame for the backend. Has worked out great and survived 95 MPH winds of Hurricane Sandy:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: SOLAR BIMINI PART SEVEN: PANELS INSTALLED

If I were to do it today I would probably use something like these Renogy bendable panels:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: A LOOK AT THE RENOGY 100 WATT BENDABLE SOLAR PANEL
Hell of a lot lighter than my original panels and can be easily removed or moved if one needed/wanted to. But, I would lay them on a piece of Lexan for support. Plexiglass does not hold up. Guess how I know.


----------



## MikeOReilly

mbianka said:


> Mike:
> A number of years ago when the original dodger material gave up I replaced it with two 75 watt 12 volt Siemens solar panels. ...


Thanks Mike, very helpful. What you've done is pretty much exactly what I was thinking. I like the simplicity of flat bars and clamps approach. I had thought about putting standard panel on the bars, but I'll consider the semi-flex ones. I've already installed two Aurinco panels. They are great, but a lot more expensive than Renogy.

Question: Sailrite's frames come in two basic large sizes. I gather it's easy to cut the centre pieces and leg length for a custom fit?

Thanks also to you windnrock. I love your frame. As a DIYer though, it looks to be beyond my very limited capabilities . I also doubt if it would work on our double-ender. But it looks great.


----------



## mbianka

MikeOReilly said:


> Thanks Mike, very helpful. What you've done is pretty much exactly what I was thinking. I like the simplicity of flat bars and clamps approach. I had thought about putting standard panel on the bars, but I'll consider the semi-flex ones. I've already installed two Aurinco panels. They are great, but a lot more expensive than Renogy.
> 
> Question: Sailrite's frames come in two basic large sizes. I gather it's easy to cut the centre pieces and leg length for a custom fit?
> 
> Thanks also to you windnrock. I love your frame. As a DIYer though, it looks to be beyond my very limited capabilities . I also doubt if it would work on our double-ender. But it looks great.


Mike

Yes, it was really easy to cut the Sailrite frame. I used a cheap plumbing pipe cutter from Home Depot. You just want to make sure you cut each side of the pipe equally as there is a slight bend in it. I would also recommend you use the hole drilling jig that Sailrite sells for drilling into the stainless steel frame. I show it in one of the posts. 
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: SOLAR BIMINI PART THREE: A plan comes together!
Made drilling into the tubing very easy.


----------



## christian.hess

good stuff!

bianka if you dont mind me asking any upates on your electric inboard? stuff like battery consumption, lifespan, range, or changes?

I love you blog btw but it has been a while since I have checked on it

peace


----------



## mbianka

christian.hess said:


> good stuff!
> 
> bianka if you dont mind me asking any upates on your electric inboard? stuff like battery consumption, lifespan, range, or changes?
> 
> I love you blog btw but it has been a while since I have checked on it
> 
> peace


Thanks! To tell the truth after seven years my EP system has gotten quite boring. Did my annual Harbor Test when i splashed the boat this year and nothing really changed from previous tests:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: ELECTRIC PROPULSION HARBOR TEST 2014
My AGM 8A4D 48 volt battery bank is still going strong after seven years. I plan on doing some tests on them over the winter. But, operationally they are preforming well. I can't remember the last time I had to empty the lockers and go down below and do something to them. The money I have saved in maintenance (parts, oil changes, antifreeze, winterizing etc...) has been redirected to purchasing a 1500 watt 48 volt Inverter and a bread maker. I also purchased an additional Engel cooler. So I can have operate one as a freezer if I want. Used the inverter via the wind turbine and 48 volt battery bank to power them when several days of cloud cover limited solar charging. Still did not need to fire up the generator for charging on those days either. Not much more I can think I may want to add perhaps a microwave/toaster oven at some point. Though I cook fine without it now. Oh yeah did buy a Sailrite LZ-1 Zig Zag sewing machine though have not tried it on board yet. Still amazed at how little maintenance EP requires compared to the old Westerbeke diesel. Like I said boring but, allows time for other projects or just staring and relaxing which I do a lot of too.


----------



## christian.hess

just what I wanted to hear! jajaja

thanks man

peace


----------



## mitiempo

mbianka said:


> My AGM 8A4D 48 volt battery bank is still going strong after seven years. I plan on doing some tests on them over the winter. But, operationally they are preforming well. I can't remember the last time I had to empty the lockers and go down below and do something to them. The money I have saved in maintenance (parts, oil changes, antifreeze, winterizing etc...) has been redirected to purchasing a 1500 watt 48 volt Inverter and a bread maker. I also purchased an additional Engel cooler. So I can have operate one as a freezer if I want. Used the inverter via the wind turbine and 48 volt battery bank to power them when several days of cloud cover limited solar charging. Still did not need to fire up the generator for charging on those days either. Not much more I can think I may want to add perhaps a microwave/toaster oven at some point. Though I cook fine without it now. Oh yeah did buy a Sailrite LZ-1 Zig Zag sewing machine though have not tried it on board yet. Still amazed at how little maintenance EP requires compared to the old Westerbeke diesel. Like I said boring but, allows time for other projects or just staring and relaxing which I do a lot of too.


How much range do you get at a reasonable cruising speed - say 4 to 5 knots?


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## mbianka

mitiempo said:


> How much range do you get at a reasonable cruising speed - say 4 to 5 knots?


My system is spec'd at 20 miles at 4 knots. But, of course it is a sailboat and that how I prefer to propel it. Because I am rarely at a dock I use the generator for bulk charging. I try and minimize the charging time when using the generator for charging. So I will switch into a hybrid mode once battery capacity has dropped to 70% which is about two hours under electric propulsion alone. Once doing that I can motor until the generator runs out of gas or the wind picks up. This does not happen very often but, I have done forty miles on one particularly windless day. Got a little chronicle of what that day was like here:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: ELECTRO SAILING AROUND NEW YORK: PART ONE


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## mitiempo

I see. My 12 gallons of diesel will take me about over 175 miles at cruise speed.


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## newhaul

mitiempo said:


> I see. My 12 gallons of diesel will take me about over 175 miles at cruise speed.


And charge batteries at the same time or run the inverter for bread machine


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## JonEisberg

mitiempo said:


> I see. My 12 gallons of diesel will take me about over 175 miles at cruise speed.


Electric propulsion is certainly an interesting alternative, and I'm always glad to hear those who have gone that route are happy with their choice...

I like to sail as much as the next guy, and perhaps a bit more than most...However, such a limited range under power certainly wouldn't work for me, and the sort of cruising I prefer to do, and some of the places I want to see...

I couldn't have made it up here, for instance, were it not for Rudolf Diesel's marvelous invention... With electric propulsion, wouldn't have even gotten close...

Different strokes for different folks, as always...

)


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## travlin-easy

Gotta agree with Jon - While electric motors have been around for a long time, the limitations are still pretty much the same. I've even made a few electric outboard motors using old jeep generators that I rewired. Worked great, lots of torque, but sure sucked down a lot of battery in a very short time.

The 20 mile cruising range would have really hampered my trip down the ICW two years ago.

Good Luck,

Gary


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## UnionPacific

I think electric may compromise anchor setting too.


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## mbianka

travlineasy said:


> Gotta agree with Jon - While electric motors have been around for a long time, the limitations are still pretty much the same. I've even made a few electric outboard motors using old jeep generators that I rewired. Worked great, lots of torque, but sure sucked down a lot of battery in a very short time.
> 
> The 20 mile cruising range would have really hampered my trip down the ICW two years ago.
> 
> Good Luck,
> 
> Gary


Gary:

I have plans for an ICW trip in the future and don't feel constrained because of the EP system. Remember the 20 mile range is under pure battery alone. For the ICW I'd probably operate under a hybrid mode for part of the day. Still much quieter than with the old diesel rumbling under the cockpit for eight hours. I did a trip from Long Island up the Erie and Oswego Canals to Canada with the old diesel. Would love to redo with the EP some day too. Would be a much more pleasant experience. No diving under the boat to clear reeds sucked into the raw water intake too.


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## mitiempo

Hybrid? Do you have a diesel generator?


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## mbianka

UnionPacific said:


> I think electric may compromise anchor setting too.


Not at all. For hoisting the anchor I usually fire up the Honda just like others fire up the diesel to help take the load off the battery. Once the anchor is up I usually shutdown the generator and motor away. Dropping the anchor is easy too. I usually don't fire up the generator though. Plenty of torque to set it too. Also very quiet so you and crew are not trying to yell over the engine noise. Though I tend to do a lot of single handed sailing.


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## newhaul

mitiempo said:


> Hybrid? Do you have a diesel generator?


Actually sounds like he has a Honda portable noisemaker 
Our yanmar is quiet can almost hear a whisper in the cockpit with it running and a half gal per hour we carry 100 hrs of fuel or about 750 miles.


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## mitiempo

mbianka said:


> Not at all. For hoisting the anchor I usually fire up the Honda just like others fire up the diesel to help take the load off the battery. Once the anchor is up I usually shutdown the generator and motor away. Dropping the anchor is easy too. I usually don't fire up the generator though. Plenty of torque to set it too. Also very quiet so you and crew are not trying to yell over the engine noise. Though I tend to do a lot of single handed sailing.


I wouldn't trade a reliable diesel for a portable gasoline generator.


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## mbianka

mitiempo said:


> Hybrid? Do you have a diesel generator?


No. But, when I started thinking of this conversion in 2007 that was always Plan B in my mind. But, happily I have found that a Honda 2000 generator really works out beautifully with EP. It's reliable and easy to move around and maintenance/repairs can be done in a comfortable position on a table. One of the reason's I wanted to get rid of the diesel (other than it not working) was I was getting really tired of squeezing my 6'2" inch frame down below to maintain or work on it. I feel after seven years of running with my EP system putting a diesel generator back in would be going backwards. But, the beauty of an EP system is you can change things or move things around pretty easily. Once you've put a diesel engine in well there you are.


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## newhaul

mitiempo said:


> I wouldn't trade a reliable diesel for a portable gasoline generator.


Agreed


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## mbianka

mitiempo said:


> I wouldn't trade a reliable diesel for a portable gasoline generator.


I wouldn't either but, my once "reliable diesel engine" dropped dead unexpectedly. After scratching my head for a number of months and then paying mechanics $75 and hour to scratch their heads. I decided to start looking around for replacements and got curious about EP. Can't speak for other units but, find the Honda 2000 EU to be much more reliable and require much less maintenance than the diesel. Maintenance costs are way down and I still cruise the same places I use too.


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## Capt Len

Dropping dead unexpectantly is one thing, unexplainably quite another.I've never been at a loss for a fix and really appreciate being able to push on in adverse or buck a current into new cruising area. I even did it with no engine or powered skiff and know what I prefer or can choose..


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## mbianka

newhaul said:


> Actually sounds like he has a Honda portable noisemaker
> Our yanmar is quiet can almost hear a whisper in the cockpit with it running and a half gal per hour we carry 100 hrs of fuel or about 750 miles.


Not saying the Honda is completely silent but, it is one of the more quiet units out there. Uses only one gallon in four hours of operation. For extended motoring I carry it up forward with the exhaust off to leeward and you can barely hear it in the cockpit. Part of the Electro Sail around New York video it was in operation in this manner.


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## Group9

mbianka said:


> Not saying the Honda is completely silent but, it is one of the more quiet units out there. Uses only one gallon in four hours of operation. For extended motoring I carry it up forward with the exhaust off to leeward and you can barely hear it in the cockpit. Part of the Electro Sail around New York video it was in operation in this manner.


The Hondas are pretty darn quiet. I was under a canopy tent at a football game last year and the people had set up a TV to watch the pre-game. There was a Honda generator sitting next to it and I asked them how they were watching the TV with the generator off. It was running.


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## christian.hess

good info bianka...Im a gearhead through and through but having always loved electric(my dad was into solar power developement down in costa rica and el salvador) and had many things electric that were reliable and fun to play with like RC cars and stuff I have learned and come to respect those using it in bigger vehicles

those that always bemoan range that electric propulsion still has as a drawback will never understand the main reasons to switch to electric...

however their points arent wrong but sound...just as those FOR electric who state the benefits soundly as well

in any case as soon as I get a boat here( a small one) Ill be either building my own EP kit from forklifts or golf carts and or buying one of the smaller quite affordeable now 2.5kw kits out there

there is one guy on a nice 29footer called TEAL that sells a kit for $1.5k plug and play, and having the benefit of being direct drive since its a slower rotating kit especially designed for smaller sailboats.

anywhoo


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## christian.hess

Group9 said:


> The Hondas are pretty darn quiet. I was under a canopy tent at a football game last year and the people had set up a TV to watch the pre-game. There was a Honda generator sitting next to it and I asked them how they were watching the TV with the generator off. It was running.


hey bud long time no see! where are you again in the gulf?

just moved to the "area" wanting to see the ocean here soon and sail

hows some beer and chefy food for a nice ride down in the gulf? jajajaja


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## windnrock

Obviously there are a lot of different factors as well as personal preferences to powering a vessel. Different configurations and styles are what makes this, and other forums great. Hearing what others have done and how various problems have been resolved is a wonderful thing. Since no single vessel is the same, used the same way and the people on board have their own priorities there are rarely simple answers. Everyone needs to find what works for them given their priorities and situation. If you want to see if you need a stand alone generator, first find out what your usage is. How much money do you have to spend? Are the areas you plan to cruise in conducive to solar? Wind? (I hope so if you are sailing!) Will you have an engine that can provide supplemental power or even all? Consider this, if you already have a diesel (or gas) engine and use relatively little electric, running your engine for an hour every day maybe all you need! You could power up for a year on less than what I spent on solar panels. Of course, after a year, I still have the panels. We have a sailboat and the primary engine is the rig. We sail. While I appreciate the simplicity of an electric drive, as of yet they don't provide the power I want available should I need it. I would love to have more space and reduce my maintenance but until they can propel me at a decent speed, when things go all pear shaped, I will stick with a diesel. In a strong current or big seas, I want to make headway. I did remove one of two fuel tanks. For a long passage, where we might expect additional consumption, we have military Gerry cans with quick connects. Our max fuel is 75 gal. which is about 420 miles if we needed it, Otherwise, I put a bit of treatment in the Gerrys to store them and just use the 45 gal main tank. We also use diesel for our heater, it uses about 1.25 gal a day in really cold weather as well as providing alternate cooking! Engine maintenance is really quite easy(I actually enjoy it! Sick, no?) and takes little of my time. It does require some expense for parts and space to store them. That said, we have a substantial PV array as well as a wind generator on top of 1000 amp hr (total) of batteries. If the technology and pricing improve, we may go all electric. We do run a gas powered compressor to fill tanks and the dinghy uses gas but I don't have the need of a gas generator, quiet or not. I have seen some tiny diesel generators but still, we just don't need 'em. One additional thought, electric motors are not trouble free, this I know. I have also changed bearings on large motors, and while they may have improved, it was not fun.


“I'll have you know I do the swearing on this ship. If I need your assitance I'll call you." Capt. Wolf Larsen in Jack London's, The Sea Wolf


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## christian.hess

we cruised almost 10k miles on a wooden boat with a yanmar 2gmf as only means of elecricity...we did fine in a very minimalistic way

only having to replace the alternator once in almost 3 years(mostly from saltwater splash and or air that fried the regulator)

key was a good battery bank 3 in parallel which is big for such a small boat(28ft)
never go down below a certain voltage(however this did happen and was part of the reason the alternator fried) 
minimal electricity loads

we also used a tiller pilot exclusively as a means of self steering.

we didnt even have a solar panel maintainer...

since we used the engine a lot creating electricity was never an issue unless we travelled inland for more than a week which we did do.

however being very frugal and cheap and low on $$$ back then we couldnt even afford to buy a small panel

they were VERY EXPENSIVE 15 years ago...now for less than $100 you can get panel, wires and charger. to maintain your banks while at anchor.

in fact we used so little electricity that we never started the engine specifically to charge batteries while underway only when stopping frequently and or on a longer passage say 5 days or more

anywhoo

many choices out there today
in fact on a small boat an outboard a very light one to use just when coming to shore would be ideal for me

say on a 25-28footer using an outboard that can be used on say a larger inflatable dinghy you kill two birds with one stone in my book...

a 6hp outboard is more than enough to anchor and make way...then when in shore use for fast inflatable rides(on a plane)

you only have to modify THE WAY YOU CRUISE

too many people want the best of all worlds

just take it down a notch with your wants sometimes and you will find that you enjoy more...

no reason to have a 75hp turbo yanmar in a 35 footer and a code zero americas cup sails and rod rigging and and and and and when trying to be frugal on a 500 a month cruise!

jajajja

that doesnt mean that you cant try either

just sayin as usual


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## windnrock

If $500 a month is the criteria, then one certainly needs to be satisfied with less. I don't have a problem with low budget any more than I have with high budget (I think I fit in the low middle somewhere). I don't think it makes one better than the other though. I don't think having less will necessarily make someone any happier than having more might. Just as we should not necessarily do something just because we can, I don't feel I should NOT do something because it's more expensive. 
Could I cut my costs by modifying the way we cruise? Most assuredly. Do I want to (wants are, I think, important)or need to? Not at present.
The first consideration should be safety. This is even more important with crew and passengers. Responsibility has to come before frugality. That applies to a mega ocean liner (which I think are unsafe as hell) as well as a dinghy and while spending more does NOT mean you are safer, cutting costs on certain items can jeopardize the safety of the vessel and crew. I will share a beer with a frugal sailor, I might not take a whole one from an negligent one though.
Interesting and thought provoking thread, thanks Barefoot!


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## christian.hess

dont read it all(the thread) or you will explode! jajaja those of us who have been on this thread from the start have come and gone many times now and for the most part all has been said

like budha said take the middle path...

extremes are well EXTREME jajaja


----------



## travlin-easy

+1 on the Honda 2000i, which I will be installing next spring. They are extremely quiet and very efficient.

Gary


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## MikeOReilly

I've carried a Yamaha 1000 watt gas generator on board for many years. It's my ultimate battery backup. It is pretty quiet, and very efficient, as are the Hondas. I've only ever used it maybe a dozen times to charge batteries, and eight of those times was in one year when our old wind generator died in mid-trip. Still, I like having it on board as a safety blanket. 

You raise the safety question windnrock. Some of my current equipment challenges revolve around this. Do I need radar (I want it ... do I need it?). How about an EPIRB (yes, but maybe not yet). Liferaft (leaning against it). Sat phone (probably no...). SSB (maybe...). How many spares? What kind of medical kit to carry? What about a big chart plotter? Forward scanning sonar? Insurance (probably liability only). Wants vs needs, balanced against the reality that I am a frugal cruiser. I can't have everything. 

Of course, we all know that the most important safety tool is the thing sitting on our shoulders. Experience, knowledge, skill, being able to think through a problem ... these are the most important things we can do to remain safe.


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## mbianka

windnrock said:


> Obviously there are a lot of different factors as well as personal preferences to powering a vessel. Different configurations and styles are what makes this, and other forums great. Hearing what others have done and how various problems have been resolved is a wonderful thing. Since no single vessel is the same, used the same way and the people on board have their own priorities there are rarely simple answers. Everyone needs to find what works for them given their priorities and situation.


Exactly. It was a leap of faith to make the jump to EP in 2007. I had a lot of "what ifs" going through my mind before I took out the check book. Happily those concerns quickly passed as I began to use the system. Though as you say it might not be for everyone depending on how they use their boat or expectations. IMO for day sailors it's a no brainier a couple of hours of sailing and then back to dock for recharging is a piece of cake for EP. I consider my use more extreme. I hardly ever day sail. Boat lives on a mooring or at anchor and I like to cruise. It has worked for me and would never consider going back to diesel. I am also often surprised discovering new ways to use the system. For example in light winds I will sometimes add some prop RPM to negate any prop drag. Uses minimal amount of amps and gives a nice bump in speed without having to buy a folding prop. Saved a couple of hundred bucks there.  I would often put off firing up the diesel in similar situations because of the noise and vibration for as long as possible. Since EP is very quiet it's is almost like being under sail in terms of noise and vibration. So I spin up the prop much sooner. As far as working on the motor. It only weighs 45 pounds and is easily removed. In seven years I have not had to do any maintenance other than a quick inspection of the brushes. I also take comfort that since it is off the shelf technology and only weighs 45 lbs I could get a new one shipped in a day or two. What I am keeping an eye on now is solar panel efficiency. It's approaching the ability to motor under solar alone without drawing amps from the battery bank. It really is working out for me and my sailing style for others it may not. But, I have never seen a downside for me.


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## christian.hess

something I have been wanting to learn more about is a good medical kit(I learned the basics from my friend)

I was spoiled on my big trip since my spanish captain was not only a doctor but also owned a laboratory that made unguents, creams and health related stuff.

I never once had to worry about even the most complicated issues like say a broken bone, or cut or head injury cause I knew he could fix me up...

out of bad luck he did however severly damage his elbow in a fall which he eventually fixed

anywhoo


----------



## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> something I have been wanting to learn more about is a good medical kit(I learned the basics from my friend)


+1 on this. I've always carried basic first aid and pharmaceuticals, but stuff like major antibiotics, and specific remedies have never found it in my kits. I've looked at some of the packaged systems, and have an paramadic friend who is guiding me, but I'd be curious to know what people have found useful when cruising in remote areas.


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## killarney_sailor

About engineless, we encountered 1.5 boats in our travels with no engines. One was a guy in Panama who was living on a lot less than $500 a month, near as I could tell. He had about a 32' boat with two junk rig masts that were actually light poles that had a tendency to break. Saw him come in and anchor in fairly close corners in 20 knots or so, did it beautifully. He mainly ate fish he caught and coconuts and his dinghy was a local dugout canoe and a paddle.

The other guy, who was in Indonesia on a Bristol 27 used a sculling oar and could tie his tiny dinghy (2.5 hp motor?) on as a yawl boat. One advantage of no engine in a smallish boat is a lot more storage space between the size of the engine and size of the tank.


----------



## killarney_sailor

Pharmaceuticals are a good way to put a hole in a $500 a month budget since they can be pricey and they do expire. I am not a doctor (got my first aid badge in Scouts midway in the last century and did take a wilderness first aid course) but did take some care in setting up our first aid kit.

- antibiotics - one variety is not enough. We found that you need different antibiotics for different types and areas of infection. Best to talk about a doctor about this, but we started with Ciproflaxin and found that it was good for the types of infections we never had, but basically useless for skin infections - which are fairly common in tropical locations; we now have four different antibiotics for skin, digestive system, ears, dental, burns, etc. One that was highly recommended is an ointment called silvadene for burns. It prevents bacterial infections and allows healing with very little if any scarring. It was described by a senior doctor as a miracle drug.

- painkillers - you need a variety of strengths; the idea is to dull the pain but still allow you to function. The opioids tend to make you sleep, which way be exactly what you need in some circumstances, but at other times is not a good thing. Also, some painkillers have to be declared to customs

Often pharmaceuticals can be purchased over the counter or with a doctor's prescription very cheaply in less developed countries. You do have to take care about counterfeit drugs though. Also, most of the antibiotics and painkillers you need are far beyond patent protection so generics are available. These can be very cheap in some places.


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## travlin-easy

The best first aid kit I own is a U.S. Army first aid kit, one that was put together 40 years ago. It's housed in a waterproof steel box, weighs about 10 pounds, takes up very little space, and was specifically designed for taking care of battlefield wounds. Turns out it's perfect for cruisers. Has pretty much everything you'll ever need for most injuries, including a suturing kit. I also carry 60 days of Doxicycline, 1,000 Bayer Aspirin, plus a 120-day supply of my normal heart meds. I even carry some nitro tabs in an airtight container to increase their effective time. Nitro tabs have a very short shelf life in an ordinary pill bottle, but in an air-tight container that is made of aluminum so no sunlight can penetrate, they will last up to six months.

I have a fairly extensive medical background, and more often than not, I've been more accurate in self diagnosis than most of my doctors at home. However, if something is seriously wrong, I still go to the local doc in a box, if for nothing else, that second opinion, and a host of useful diagnostic tools that I, obviously, do not have onboard. I can still read an X-ray pretty good, I can still read an EKG, Cat Scan, MRI, and I'm constantly aware of my symptoms. I also carry a stethoscope, automatic blood pressure machine, and pulse oximeter, essential tools that you can purchase online for very little money. And now, there are aps for your I-phone that can perform an EKG, EEG, and several other tests that can be emailed to a hospital or physician for his or her interpretation. When you're out there alone, these are essential tools to have aboard.

Good luck,

Gary


----------



## christian.hess

killarney_sailor said:


> Pharmaceuticals are a good way to put a hole in a $500 a month budget since they can be pricey and they do expire. I am not a doctor (got my first aid badge in Scouts midway in the last century and did take a wilderness first aid course) but did take some care in setting up our first aid kit.
> 
> - antibiotics - one variety is not enough. We found that you need different antibiotics for different types and areas of infection. Best to talk about a doctor about this, but we started with Ciproflaxin and found that it was good for the types of infections we never had, but basically useless for skin infections - which are fairly common in tropical locations; we now have four different antibiotics for skin, digestive system, ears, dental, burns, etc. One that was highly recommended is an ointment called silvadene for burns. It prevents bacterial infections and allows healing with very little if any scarring. It was described by a senior doctor as a miracle drug.
> 
> - painkillers - you need a variety of strengths; the idea is to dull the pain but still allow you to function. The opioids tend to make you sleep, which way be exactly what you need in some circumstances, but at other times is not a good thing. Also, some painkillers have to be declared to customs
> 
> Often pharmaceuticals can be purchased over the counter or with a doctor's prescription very cheaply in less developed countries. You do have to take care about counterfeit drugs though. Also, most of the antibiotics and painkillers you need are far beyond patent protection so generics are available. These can be very cheap in some places.


it would be very easy to do down in el salvador...I now know few family doctors and those who took care of our newborn that for a small fee would glady set us up with a medical kit for offshore

however I(myself) pardon the redundancy would like to get a little more medically trained in order to do stuff on a trip and not feel completely overwhelmed

I have a problem that I get a little queezy with blood, my father had the same problem...I can power through it but its NOT fun, especially if you are the only real sailor say in a small family...

anhywhoo

Im all ears

wasnt there a thread started not too long specifically talking about medical kits for crusing?

maybe med sailor can pitch in here, jajaja


----------



## killarney_sailor

Gary
Could you share the names of the apps you mentioned. Thanks


----------



## windnrock

erhaps it is time to start a new thread! We've gone from savings to sutures.

Both my wife and I are EMTs and spent the better part of a decade on ski patrol in Colorado. It was a great experience and exposed us to all kinds of wonderful trauma, exposure and a kluge of medical conditions. While we have made good use of our training outside of the patrol (car, bike and other incidents) we fortunately have not had to practice on each other. Well, not much anyway. We do have an extensive kit that we built into a large pelican case. We designed it in a modular fashion and tried to consider all eventualities, even those outside our levels of training. In the worst case a specialist can be contacted to "talk you through".
Some special items are a collapsible traction splint for mid shaft femur breaks and a pelvic girdle splint/stabilizer. These two are dangerous breaks due to blood loss. A cervical collar, they are pretty much flat and take up little room and one of the access covers in the salon we drilled to be used as a backboard if necessary. It is a great tool, not only to stabilize, but to move a victim around. We also have IV with normal saline and Ringers Lactate, with an option to do subcutaneous. Running a line when cold and wet on a pitching boat would not be easy. Subcutaneous uses a patch that has two small needles. It is slower than an IV but a:it is easy to apply and b: it is easier to wear and move around with. 
One of the other considerations was to have enough sterile equipment and material to take with us to a third world medical facility if we need to.
We have an extensive pharmacy but, as was pointed out, many drugs have an expiration, certainly depending on storage. Much of it will last longer than the manufactures claim, especially if kept cool and dry. We store some in the bilge in a container with desiccants and some in the freezer the same way. Do keep a list of all prescription drugs, along with receipts and any other paperwork. 
If you don't have much training, it's a good idea to get it, you are the first responder as well as the doctor, nurse and possibly surgeon. You might insist on you sailing partners to get it as well! Training is absolutely key, without it virtually anybody is lost.
Remember, when seconds count, help is only days away (if they heard you at all)!


----------



## killarney_sailor

Its hard to keep things cool when the water temperature is >80°F (which is great except for keeping things cool). We did not have much experience with medical facilities but in most places you will be cruising, they are actually pretty good based on visits we made in French Polynesia (Papeete and Mangareva), Fiji, and South Africa.


----------



## mbianka

killarney_sailor said:


> About engineless, we encountered 1.5 boats in our travels with no engines. One was a guy in Panama who was living on a lot less than $500 a month, near as I could tell. He had about a 32' boat with two junk rig masts that were actually light poles that had a tendency to break. Saw him come in and anchor in fairly close corners in 20 knots or so, did it beautifully. He mainly ate fish he caught and coconuts and his dinghy was a local dugout canoe and a paddle.
> 
> The other guy, who was in Indonesia on a Bristol 27 used a sculling oar and could tie his tiny dinghy (2.5 hp motor?) on as a yawl boat. One advantage of no engine in a smallish boat is a lot more storage space between the size of the engine and size of the tank.


Always wanted to try out a sculling oar out on my boat. An engine can be the biggest drain on expenses when cruising. You can repair a sail pretty easy an injection pump not so much. No engine equals less problems and less expense. But, you better have your a good anchor setup and your anchoring technique down pat. Something which is always good to practice with the engine in neutral from time to time. Hoisting the anchor without the windlass is also good to practice in case the windlass should ever break. Guess how I know?


----------



## travlin-easy

killarney_sailor said:


> Gary
> Could you share the names of the apps you mentioned. Thanks


I just saw them on TV a few weeks ago, and they were really neat - and I believe they worked on all the smart phones.

Here's a link for the Blackberry: The ECG Guide | QxMD Medical Apps

Here's one for an Android: AliveCor ECG comes to Android, transmits your palpitations to Instagram

Here's some more information that may be helpful: 




Gary


----------



## Group9

christian.hess said:


> hey bud long time no see! where are you again in the gulf?
> 
> just moved to the "area" wanting to see the ocean here soon and sail
> 
> hows some beer and chefy food for a nice ride down in the gulf? jajajaja


Hey, I heard you moved north. We are trying to get ready for a May departure on our next extended cruise and we are basically stripping the boat down to nothing for repairs and cleaning, so we're not going anywhere for a while!

But, anytime you are down near New Orleans, (I'm actually 70 miles east of there) give me a shout and I'll show you a cool part of the US (before Katrina, Emeril used to live in the same town I did, Pass Christian, and his kid went to the same school mine went to, and we would run into him and his wife every once in a while, but his house got wiped out with everyone elses.)


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## christian.hess

I would love to go to new orleans just to taste the food scene! well I can hep with boat stuff too

jajaja

as soon as I get a break from work I would love to travel locally...

cheers

ps. good luck with the refit...sounds awesome!


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## christian.hess

HAPPY TURKEY DAY GUYS!

peace


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## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> HAPPY TURKEY DAY GUYS!
> 
> peace


We had ours a month ago, but yes, hope all our American friends are enjoying a good meal and happy times with friends and family.


----------



## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> We had ours a month ago, but yes, hope all our American friends are enjoying a good meal and happy times with friends and family.


hey mike very true my sister and other friends celebrated a while back...on the end I dont think of thanksgiving as a historical acheivment but mostly an ACT OF THANKS day

whatever youre thankful for just give thanks jajajaja

anyways

Ill soon be part of the very very 500 budget crowd as I hope to own a nice merit 25 sailboat by christmas, that I will get for less than 2 months budgets

oh the humanity

cant wait

peace


----------



## barefootnavigator

Wow, 256 pages  a sick doggie prompted me back to the docks and with that my budget went from $350-400 per month to well... several thousand a month. When I started this thread the number was just a guideline and the responses here have been fun, informative, amazing and in some cases just plain sily but I have to say as we soon learned after un cutting the lines, life in the real world is quite costly. Our simple nomadic life had us wanting and needing very little. Now that we have a real income again we also have needs that we didn't while aimleesly drifting about. We will set off again and we will again have that $500 per month target but its easy to see how so many living dockside could see this as so impossible. I have been so inspired by all the comments here that we have started taking notes and wonder if there is a good book in the future perhaps titled Voyaging on $500 per month. Thank you all for the inspiration and support, happy turkey day, or in our case rice and beans day


----------



## Johnniegee

no booze and no smoking buys you years and quality of life...cheap and PRICELESS


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Johnniegee said:


> no booze and no smoking buys you years and quality of life...cheap and PRICELESS


Each to their own. A few beers in a nice pub with some like minded people certainly increases my quality of life.

Maybe not drinking at all may give me a few more years but even the science disagrees now:



> drinking an entire bottle of wine every day is not exactly what he would call "unhealthy."


 A Bottle Of Wine A Day Is 'Good For You,' Researchers Say: Why You Need To Be Careful About The Claim

Not for everyone, and I certainly don't drink that much. In fact I keep bar nights to twice per week.


----------



## newhaul

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Each to their own. A few beers in a nice pub with some like minded people certainly increases my quality of life.
> 
> Maybe not drinking at all may give me a few more years but even the science disagrees now:
> 
> A Bottle Of Wine A Day Is 'Good For You,' Researchers Say: Why You Need To Be Careful About The Claim
> 
> Not for everyone, and I certainly don't drink that much. In fact I keep bar nights to twice per week.


Then there are people like me alcoholism is rather prevalent in my genetic past so I just don't drink (better safe than sorry)


----------



## MikeOReilly

barefootnavigator said:


> Wow, 256 pages  a sick doggie prompted me back to the docks and with that my budget went from $350-400 per month to well... several thousand a month. When I started this thread the number was just a guideline and the responses here have been fun, informative, amazing and in some cases just plain sily but I have to say as we soon learned after un cutting the lines, life in the real world is quite costly. Our simple nomadic life had us wanting and needing very little. Now that we have a real income again we also have needs that we didn't while aimleesly drifting about.


Nicely said BFN. And you touch on an interesting question -- one that is very real for me and my spouse right now. We left last Spring, but are now back on land for another winter work stint. This has brought into focus the high cost of working in our rich societies. I'm not actually sure it is worth it.

For the benefit of a pretty decent income (for my spouse) we have to maintain a house, a car, and all the expenses that go into that: utilities, taxes, insurance, maintenance costs, gas for vehicles, wood for the woodstove, etc... She has to maintain a professional wardrobe, professional accreditations. We have added travel costs, not to mention the generally higher cost of food, clothes, etc.

Some of these are details specific to us, but it's brought into stark contrast the high cost most of us pay for the privilege/benefit of going to work each day. I'm honestly not sure if we will be financially ahead, or actually fall behind. We might have been better off living inexpensively from our boat (or from our motorcycles), rather than coming back north to a high-income job.


----------



## barefootnavigator

Bingo Mike, you just summarized the logic behind every can't do post on this thread. How could anyone living stateside imagine voyaging on any budget while being bombarded with all the costs associated with land based living. Like you we are trapped by winter. Were are also trapped by being in one of the most beautiful cruising grounds in the world that also has a very short cruising season. I honestly am starting to think that having two boats might be a cheaper way to go in the long run. So we could always be somewhere warm. One in the Salish Sea and one in Central America. We could flip flop back and forth and have the best of both worlds. We have been working our asses off and by April will have a small passive income so all we have to do is budget a bit and play the rest of the time. We could just up and sail south when the timing is right for us but Its so wonderful here we just can't seem to leave.


----------



## christian.hess

barefootnavigator said:


> Bingo Mike, you just summarized the logic behind every can't do post on this thread. How could anyone living stateside imagine voyaging on any budget while being bombarded with all the costs associated with land based living. Like you we are trapped by winter. Were are also trapped by being in one of the most beautiful cruising grounds in the world that also has a very short cruising season. I honestly am starting to think that having two boats might be a cheaper way to go in the long run. So we could always be somewhere warm. One in the Salish Sea and one in Central America. We could flip flop back and forth and have the best of both worlds. We have been working our asses off and by April will have a small passive income so all we have to do is budget a bit and play the rest of the time. We could just up and sail south when the timing is right for us but Its so wonderful here we just can't seem to leave.


my boat is for sale

in central america

come on why does everybody wish the best of both worlds and then when the opprtunity comes NOBODY BITES?????????

my islander 36 is for sale

I can finish it for you or you can

its still black friday

50% off!

oh btw its a frugal cruiser with sayes rig windvane, insttuments, ssb radio and no engine

oh to be like the pardeys! ajaja

all joking aside

if my boat doesnt sell it will just sit there until I go down and do what bearfoot is talking about, ill cruise to panama and stuff head back to work...Ill be here with a small trailer sailor and having

THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS!


----------



## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> my boat is for sale
> 
> in central america
> 
> come on why does everybody wish the best of both worlds and then when the opprtunity comes NOBODY BITES?????????
> 
> my islander 36 is for sale
> 
> I can finish it for you or you can


This is an amazing offer folks. Anyone considering the two-boat option (which I've thought about, but can't), or someone who wants to jump in with a great boat in a great location, now's the chance!


----------



## chall03

MikeOReilly said:


> Nicely said BFN. And you touch on an interesting question -- one that is very real for me and my spouse right now. We left last Spring, but are now back on land for another winter work stint. This has brought into focus the high cost of working in our rich societies. I'm not actually sure it is worth it.
> 
> For the benefit of a pretty decent income (for my spouse) we have to maintain a house, a car, and all the expenses that go into that: utilities, taxes, insurance, maintenance costs, gas for vehicles, wood for the woodstove, etc... She has to maintain a professional wardrobe, professional accreditations. We have added travel costs, not to mention the generally higher cost of food, clothes, etc.
> 
> Some of these are details specific to us, but it's brought into stark contrast the high cost most of us pay for the privilege/benefit of going to work each day. I'm honestly not sure if we will be financially ahead, or actually fall behind. We might have been better off living inexpensively from our boat (or from our motorcycles), rather than coming back north to a high-income job.


Our experience has been very similar. After a sabbatical cruise we are now back in the real world topping up the kitty.

The otherside of it for us, is that while also paying for the car, the apartment and the 9 - 5 life we have our cruising boat here as well that we need to keep and maintain in a high cost city and without the luxury of as much time to do things ourselves as we did in cruising mode.


----------



## christian.hess

time share AKA boat share down in central america!!!

THE SEASON HAS JUST STARTED! your good to go till july next year.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...-central-america-el-salvador.html#post2399698

Im dead serious if someone wants a boat to sleep on, fish on cruise on down south...with a little extra finishing off you can have mine

Im open to any offers and or options...a boat share system has been brought to my attention as an alternative to the standard bareboat charter system

my boat is frugal, barebones but has tons of space...sails well and has been redone structurally...

can sail as is...

lemme know

christian


----------



## JonEisberg

barefootnavigator said:


> Bingo Mike, you just summarized the logic behind every can't do post on this thread. How could anyone living stateside imagine voyaging on any budget while being bombarded with all the costs associated with land based living. Like you we are trapped by winter. Were are also trapped by being in one of the most beautiful cruising grounds in the world that also has a very short cruising season. *I honestly am starting to think that having two boats might be a cheaper way to go in the long run. So we could always be somewhere warm. One in the Salish Sea and one in Central America. We could flip flop back and forth and have the best of both worlds.* We have been working our asses off and by April will have a small passive income so all we have to do is budget a bit and play the rest of the time. We could just up and sail south when the timing is right for us but Its so wonderful here we just can't seem to leave.


Well, that's one way to do it... Or, simply going with a trailerable boat could be another solution. However, I doubt that constitutes what most folks consider to be _"VOYAGING"_, as originally described in the context of this thread...

In addition, not sure the logic necessarily follows, that owning 2 boats in different parts of the world simultaneously, would be "cheaper" than owning just one... 

Finally, by eliminating the actual "voyaging" - and time spent at sea and away from land, ports, and places to spend money - from such a commuter-style/Snowbird migration, you are actually cutting out the single aspect of long term cruising that costs the least...

Again, such a dual-boat plan might have considerable appeal for many, but I'm not sure that keeping the cost, logistics, and general hassle of boat ownership and living aboard at a bare-bones minimum would top the list of reasons for doing so...

)


----------



## christian.hess

once again happy thanksgiving and happy holidays!

man is that so hard to do these days???


----------



## MikeOReilly

chall03 said:


> The otherside of it for us, is that while also paying for the car, the apartment and the 9 - 5 life we have our cruising boat here as well that we need to keep and maintain in a high cost city and without the luxury of as much time to do things ourselves as we did in cruising mode.


Exactly... Out of necessity, we find ourselves with boat on the hard, and us back in the fake life of wage work high cost living. I've come to realize/think of, this period as the strange part. People keep asking, "what's it like to be back in the 'real world?'" I keep saying, this is not real. My life on the boat, meandering around places -- THAT is real. This life back on land is just a necessary hiatus.

But to the financial question, if we come out ahead, with more money in the kitty than we started this land-hiatus, I think it will be a marginal increase. Balanced against this is the need to plug ourselves back into this land life, the loss of freedom and simplicity, and deeper connection my spouse and I have on our boat.

I miss it...


----------



## travlin-easy

Mike, there are times when you have to intermix the two in order to achieve the goals you've set. For example, I'm gonna drive down to the keys and spend a couple months drinking booze and playing music, and I'll be renting a home there. The cost is ridiculous, but what the Hell - I'm not leaving this hard earned cash for the kids, at least not intentionally. When I get home, the first task at hand will be to complete the income taxes, then go to work, balls to the wall, for the next six months, working 5 yo 7 days a week, sometimes two jobs a day, putting every dime in the bank. Then, when October rolls around, I'm putting up the sails, pointing the bow south, and heading back to Marathon Key, Florida. When I get there, I'll tie up the boat at the City Marina, hop on a plane, fly back to Baltimore, pick up my loving spouse, and point the car south, driving as fast as legally possible until I reach Marathon. We'll live aboard for about 4 months, I'll play the music at the tiki bars, marinas and resorts, then at the end of February, I'll load the car with my music gear, and drive back home again. Then I'll fly back to the boat and bring it home, which usually takes me about a month. All these things will cost a bundle, but like I said, the kids ain't gettin a dime unless I take an early dirt nap. 

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## mrhoneydew

On the topic of wine... inspired by barefoot I was walking by the wine area at my local Bartell Drug earlier this month and they had a pretty good local red blend (Columbia Crest "Amitage") on sale for $4.99/bottle from $11.99. I ended up going around to several locations and buying what they had... I now have 6 cases.  Sure $393.12 after tax could be considered a huge blow to the budget, but it will likely take me a few years to go through 72 bottles of wine!  Now I just need to figure out the best place to stow it all. Right now I have it in my rented garage, but after I take off this coming Spring it will have to fit onboard. Anybody have any good suggestions to safely stow a quantity of bottles?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jerryrlitton

mrhoneydew said:


> On the topic of wine... inspired by barefoot I was walking by the wine area at my local Bartell Drug earlier this month and they had a pretty good local red blend (Columbia Crest "Amitage") on sale for $4.99/bottle from $11.99. I ended up going around to several locations and buying what they had... I now have 6 cases.  Sure $393.12 after tax could be considered a huge blow to the budget, but it will likely take me a few years to go through 72 bottles of wine!  Now I just need to figure out the best place to stow it all. Right now I have it in my rented garage, but after I take off this coming Spring it will have to fit onboard. Anybody have any good suggestions to safely stow a quantity of bottles?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would say in the bilge. Just keep it secured.


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## mrhoneydew

Unfortunately my bilge isn't huge... Good for maybe a case? I have space at the forward end of the v-berth for a lot of it. I expect I will be poking random bottles in many places and, perhaps, go through it more quickly than I think since I will have to subsist on it given there will be little room left for food. LOL! J/K I'm more wondering if the best way to pack it. Bubble wrap, I guess?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MarkofSeaLife

barefootnavigator said:


> Wow, 256 pages  a sick doggie prompted me back to the docks and with that my budget went from $350-400 per month to well... several thousand a month.


I understand the point of your post and I appreciate you posting it, because it is reality.
But theres still the reality that you could NOT cruise on $500 per month as you had to return to work as soon as one significant problem occured. Your dog got sick and your couldnt afford to treat it, etc, whatever, where you were.

$500 per month kitty will never let someone:
Return home when their mother gets very sick.
Return home when their mother dies.
Their partners mother dies.
Their mast falls off (Quote for a new mast for a Pearson 42 $37,000!!!!!)
The mechanic works on yor engine and finally shakes his head.

Pets do come on this list. Friends tried to avoid taking their cat to Australia by quarantining it in NZ then flying it to Darwin when they were clearing out. Cost: $6,000 for the flight NZ to Aus, only! The quarantine bill was on top of that.

People with sick dog in Caribbean flew it home with wife for treatment... Cost? Astronomical.

So, yes, your point and Mikes, that a lot of ones real job wages goes to supporting that job, one just can't live like a civilised human without the ability to cover the costs of sick animals and families... And boats.

Hope you get back out quickly. And I hope your dog is better.

Mark


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## MarkofSeaLife

I found a few new cubby holes behind the seat backs in the saloon. Surprisingly large... So if you cant find room for your 72 bottles I could relieve you of the overflow...


----------



## Don L

Spent more than $500 this year just on hoses, that I installed myself.

Good thing I have a budget for these major repair items  In total spent $1268 this year on maintenance repair and that is an all time low for a year. Even if I take out marina and storage costs out it cost me $4,000 just to have the boat. 

So I still have this belief that many people suffer from poor math.


----------



## MikeOReilly

travlineasy said:


> Mike, there are times when you have to intermix the two in order to achieve the goals you've set. ... All these things will cost a bundle, but like I said, the kids ain't gettin a dime unless I take an early dirt nap.


Sounds like you've got it all figured out Gary, which is why I come to learn from you guys who have done it. I'm all for spending the money now to enjoy life. That's what money's for. From all you've revealed about yourself Gary, we know your kids were brought up well, and are taking care of themselves just fine. Spend it!

Of course, your solutions would not work for me. I can't afford it, and luckily I have a partner who actually likes our life afloat. So we don't have to do all that commuting and balancing. This is good, b/c I'd be broke in no time .



MarkofSeaLife said:


> But theres still the reality that you could NOT cruise on $500 per month as you had to return to work as soon as one significant problem occured.


Agreed, in the sense that the aspirational $500/month number is the day-to-day budget. In financial parlance, it is the operational budget, not the capital or project budget. I am easing into this life with a significant (for me) protected fund that is to be use for these big budget "all hell breaking loose" events. Call it a form of self-insurance. Shyte happens. When it does, us budget cruisers have to have something to fall back on.

But the pet and booze examples are also a good ones. The fact is, I can have anything with my budget, I just can't have everything. This means I have to make real choices about where and how I cruise. I can't hang out in expensive places, I can't have all the newest and fanciest toys, I can't drink expensive wine all the time, and I probably can't have a pet on board.

Low-budget cruising is possible if you're willing to make the necessary decisions, and understand the consequences of your choices. Most people who go cruising are not willing, able or even interested in making those choices -- why would they? Most of us are quite rich, are used to living a wealthy lifestyle, and are not choosing to go cruising so as to achieve some sort of monastic nirvana.

Most people don't change their lifestyles unless forced to. That's just the way we are.


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## dwedeking

I think of a budget as operational expenses as stated above. I like to have a base line of projected costs, then everthing else goes into savings or is allowed for non-necessary purchases (ie photography or boat gear). 

There is a huge difference in how the income to support this budget comes into play. If you are stuck on a fixed low income and have the initial means to set up a cruising boat, I'd rather be poor on the water bopping around places vs stuck in a cubicle apartment just getting by day to day on that same forced budget. If your planning a set period of time to cruise (for example 1 - 3 years) you could easily set a budget close to this with a safety net account to fly back home if a major issue arises. If your making $10,000 a month working / living in suburbia then a minimalistic lifestyle (and this budget) probably won't appeal to you. 

As I've pared down from a full modern suburbian lifestyle in 2008 to a pretty minimalistic one that I live now, I'm constantly amazed at the things I've dropped off my "required" budget spreadsheet (and my budget now is 1/3 of what it was in 2008).


----------



## okawbow

Living on a low income is a skill that can be acquired if you have the will. One can even live well on little money if they are resourceful. 

I've lived well on income that is barely over the poverty level in the US. I do my own repairs. I obtain much of my own food by hunting, fishing, and gardening. If I buy a vehicle, (or boat), I hunt for a bargain used one, with lots of life left, and one that's economical. 

"The best things in life are free", if you are willing to work at it a little.


----------



## christian.hess

if people still dont get it its cause they dont want to...

...unfortunately it seems lately that anyone that posts something on the 500 thread RELATED TO THE THREAD immediately has to be responded with some nagging troll or person insisting on putting down a different way of doing things.

personally im over this´(and on many other threads where bickering is more common than simple conversation) and wish they would just stop.

However humans are damn stubborn.

I tried even after being away over 2 months to add my little cents here and there, get people excited about cruising on such a budget...(for example the season just started in Central America)and get people back into the 500 thread at least just to keep eachother updated.

Remember guys, those who INSIST on proving a point, or putting down any different way of doing things, often do so out of a lack of understanding, in layman terms IGNORANCE, they just dont want to change how THEY have done things and insist on pontificating their experiences and putting down others that have done so differently.

No naming names here...btw.

In the end people need to understand that there are a million ways to skin a cat....cruising is this way....do it on 100 a month, 500, 1000 or 5k or 20 or a million a month.

those that dont get this, never will!


In any case Im finally out of this wonderful thread...just cant deal reading through so much negative and anti helpful posts by trolls...(yes you are a troll if you only come on here to nag) and not help or discuss.

Wish I could say Im out there now to come and join us, but Im not, Im on hold cruising wise and getting the family settled in here.

if anybody wishes to stay in contact just pm me...hope to meet some of you in person now that Im in the states...

Thanks to all that have helped me with little tips here and there, those that sent me charts, those that helped me with well wishes for my boat, etc...you know who you are and thanks...

Peace to all

Christian


----------



## Group9

okawbow said:


> Living on a low income is a skill that can be acquired if you have the will. One can even live well on little money if they are resourceful.
> 
> I've lived well on income that is barely over the poverty level in the US. I do my own repairs. I obtain much of my own food by hunting, fishing, and gardening. If I buy a vehicle, (or boat), I hunt for a bargain used one, with lots of life left, and one that's economical.
> 
> "The best things in life are free", if you are willing to work at it a little.


I'll say this. People who think you can't survive on $500 a month, damn sure never worked their way through college, while married, with no help from anyone.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

christian.hess said:


> Remember guys, those who INSIST on proving a point, or putting down any different way of doing things, often do so out of a lack of understanding, in layman terms IGNORANCE, they just dont want to change how THEY have done things and insist on pontificating their experiences and putting down others that have done so differently.
> 
> No naming names here...btw.
> 
> In the end people need to understand that there are a million ways to skin a cat....cruising is this way....do it on 100 a month, 500, 1000 or 5k or 20 or a million a month.
> 
> Peace to all
> 
> Christian


Pretty hypocritical to say Peace to All after that spray against anyone with a differing opion to yours.

Christian I give a contrary opinion in some threads because I belive it is warrented.

YOU have never had to unstring a suicide victim from his mast i the middle of a bloody marina in some far off country because he couldnt pay for his life anymore... His engine was in pieces all over the saloon.
YOU never watched as the marina towed his boat out and dumped it in the mangroves.
YOU never watched as the marina stole his dinghy to use as the marina work boat.

Some people have contrary opinions to yours, or anyones, for good reason.

Its not always possible to skin a cat. Sometimes people need to be forewarned. What they do with the warning I have no control. But to stymie those people warning because they do not agree with your opinions sounds like bullying to me.

And I won't be called on it.

If you are into "no naming names" then you further diminish your position by trying to intimidate folks on this forum.

Mark


----------



## donjuanluis

mrhoneydew said:


> On the topic of wine... inspired by barefoot I was walking by the wine area at my local Bartell Drug earlier this month and they had a pretty good local red blend (Columbia Crest "Amitage") on sale for $4.99/bottle from $11.99. I ended up going around to several locations and buying what they had... I now have 6 cases.  Sure $393.12 after tax could be considered a huge blow to the budget, but it will likely take me a few years to go through 72 bottles of wine!  Now I just need to figure out the best place to stow it all. Right now I have it in my rented garage, but after I take off this coming Spring it will have to fit onboard. Anybody have any good suggestions to safely stow a quantity of bottles?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I will put them in the bilge, and drop some ice once in a while, just to see if the pump is working....


----------



## travlin-easy

I'm fairly skilled at living on a low income - I'm a musician/entertainer! Hell, we're always broke, but we tend to be a fairly happy lot.

Gary


----------



## MikeOReilly

Christian, please stay. This thread would be greatly impoverished without your input. For those of us who have just begun our meandering, your knowledge and perspectives from actually doing it are invaluable. 

I understand your frustration with posters who only seem to come here to "prove" that it can't be done. But I don't mind reading challenging posts from people who point out the difficulty of cruising frugally; especially from those like Mark who are/have been out there. I just ignore the nattering naysayers.

Now, back to mrhoneydew's important issue of where to put all that good, cheap wine. I'm sure you'll find a way, but one idea I pondered a while back was to use a flexible water tank to carry my home-made brews. I even had visions of plumbing it into the galley sink using a Y-valve. 

But seriously, wine is sold in flexible plastic bags. As long as you don't introduce air into the tank as you're drawing wine out, why wouldn't this work?


----------



## barefootnavigator

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I understand the point of your post and I appreciate you posting it, because it is reality.
> But theres still the reality that you could NOT cruise on $500 per month as you had to return to work as soon as one significant problem occured. Your dog got sick and your couldnt afford to treat it, etc, whatever, where you were.
> 
> $500 per month kitty will never let someone:
> Return home when their mother gets very sick.
> Return home when their mother dies.
> Their partners mother dies.
> Their mast falls off (Quote for a new mast for a Pearson 42 $37,000!!!!!)
> The mechanic works on yor engine and finally shakes his head.
> 
> Pets do come on this list. Friends tried to avoid taking their cat to Australia by quarantining it in NZ then flying it to Darwin when they were clearing out. Cost: $6,000 for the flight NZ to Aus, only! The quarantine bill was on top of that.
> 
> People with sick dog in Caribbean flew it home with wife for treatment... Cost? Astronomical.
> 
> So, yes, your point and Mikes, that a lot of ones real job wages goes to supporting that job, one just can't live like a civilised human without the ability to cover the costs of sick animals and families... And boats.
> 
> Hope you get back out quickly. And I hope your dog is better.
> 
> Mark


We didn't return home because we couldn't afford to continue, I did it to make my dog more comfortable and not have to deal with the dingy every time she needed to go potty. I don't know what the perfect budget is but I can tell you on 500 we live great and you are very right, no trips home on that budget. Our budget is for normal living. If we have emergencies we deal with them and make up for it later. As far as target goals go we do fine and if we say doubled that amount to 1000 per month we would feel like millionaires. Thats only 6k each earned per year not much to come by in any part of the world.

Were in port the for rest of my dearly loved doggies life and 500 barely covers slip fee. Since we have an unexpected opportunity to work for real wages we are and spending it on the boat and also treating ourselves a bit. I just had drinks with a friend who set sail 4 years ago on his Ingrid 38 with $500 in his life savings, he just finished his voyage with a 60 day solo crossing from Japan to WA and his pictures and stories would make anyone envious. He is creative and does all his own work. His boat may be a little rough but it got the job done and showed him the pacific rim in style.

Its 20 degrees right now and blowing 40 knots, we are warm and dry in our 22'er drinking coffee with fresh cream and scrambling up a wonderful breakfast of local fresh onions and eggs, they are in season and cheap right off the farm. Lunch will be PB and J and dinner rice and Kale again from a local farm. We supplement with canned food and while many id not most might think our life sucks,we love it, choose it and will continue to. total days food costs for us and the dog about 8 bucks. We are in one of the highest cost of living areas in the world right now.  Im rambling...


----------



## travlin-easy

Today is opening day of deer season in Maryland. One well placed shot could provide you with a years meat. Deer have become a nuisance species nationwide. Seasons and bag limits are very liberal. All you need is a shotgun and a license.

Gary


----------



## newhaul

travlineasy said:


> Today is opening day of deer season in Maryland. One well placed shot could provide you with a years meat. Deer have become a nuisance species nationwide. Seasons and bag limits are very liberal. All you need is a shotgun and a license.
> 
> Gary


That's some expensive meat here in Washington the cost of the license the tags and then the cost of just going not to mention the shop to butcher and wrap the meat and they dress under a hundred pounds here


----------



## travlin-easy

When I lived in Spokane, 1968 - 1970, the deer averaged about 140 pounds, and I did my own butchering. Resident license was $8. Here in Maryland, seniors get a price break on license, but I don't need one on my own property. I can legally bag 14 deer per season. 

Gary


----------



## krisscross

This thread is a perfect illustration of the well known phrase: 
It's all in your head.


----------



## mitiempo

travlineasy said:


> I can legally bag 14 deer per season.
> Gary


With a shotgun?


----------



## newhaul

Gary sounds like mulies and here on the west side its little white tails and prices have gone up many times over that resident deer is now 44.90 and that's just the license and only allowed one also living on a boat don't even have a car don't need it here public transport is awesome so would need to get a car or pay for a friend to go hunting with you so well you get the idea expenses are a snowball on a steep hill and rolling faster :laugher:laugher:laugher


----------



## newhaul

Guys this would take a months budget but bet I can circumnavigate faster than the other guy San Juan 24:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher


----------



## mitiempo

newhaul said:


> ....bet I can circumnavigate faster than the other guy


What other guy?


----------



## newhaul

This guy http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...d-500-buck-san-juan-24-hes-got-guts-sure.html


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## mitiempo

I remember now, read an article in Lat 38 a while back about him. Plucky guy.

I would go offshore in a small boat but not a SJ24, even with new rigging. I have worked on one and thought it was pretty flimsy, the opposite of my CS27. Besides I hate a boat without standing headroom.

I'm caught up in the SA thread now.


----------



## newhaul

mitiempo said:


> I remember now, read an article in Lat 38 a while back about him. Plucky guy.
> 
> I would go offshore in a small boat but not a SJ24, even with new rigging. I have worked on one and thought it was pretty flimsy, the opposite of my CS27. Besides I hate a boat without standing headroom.
> 
> I'm caught up in the SA thread now.


Actually would almost consider really coin it in my islander but the s42 has standing head room and an ro watermaker


----------



## Group9

All you have to do to see how relative the amount of money required to live on is, is to watch some celebrity divorce cases, where some wife goes catatonic because her husband is trying to put her in the poorhouse by only giving her $250,000 a month to live on. 

I agree, that most Americans (me included) are way too spoiled, to live on $500 a month. I've done it, but I wouldn't do it again. But, in over half of the world's countries, people do that very thing every single day, their entire lives. And, if you have ever visited those places, they don't all seem miserable. In fact, many of them seem quite happy.

The median annual household income worldwide is $9,733, and the median per-capita household income is $2,920, according to Gallup metrics. That means that way more than half of the world is getting by on a lot less than $500 a month, as cruel as that might seem to those of us who can't do it. 

If a person, who is making a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year right now, tells me they couldn't live on $500 a month, my response would be, "I don't think you could, either."


----------



## MikeOReilly

Group9 said:


> The median annual household income worldwide is $9,733, and the median per-capita household income is $2,920, according to Gallup metrics. That means that way more than half of the world is getting by on a lot less than $500 a month, as cruel as that might seem to those of us who can't do it.
> 
> If a person, who is making a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year right now, tells me they couldn't live on $500 a month, my response would be, "I don't think you could, either."


Nicely said. I would add that poverty is more a relative concept than an absolute. This is why our society's growing income inequalities are so pernicious. If everyone is more or less at the same level, be that making $5k/year or $500K, it doesn't really matter. The economic support systems that deliver stuff like food, water, shelter, etc. are available at accessible prices. It's only when we get into highly stratified societies where the big financial divide (which becomes the big power divide) produces real poverty, and all the associated challenges that brings.

But this brings me to a question or concern I have for myself. The fact is that I _have_ lived at well below our target $500/month, and have never been seduced by the trappings of our high-consumer society. That said, the last few years have seen my spouse and I bringing in an income well above the poverty level. The fact is, we would not be able to have the boat we have, and be in a position to sail away, if we hadn't.

Living frugally is as much a skill as anything. Without practice, it becomes rusty. Will we be able to permanently shift back to a low-cost lifestyle as we slowly transition to life afloat? I think so, but I know my own weaknesses.

The nice thing is, we really have no choice but to live frugally. When you have no choice, then the choices are easy .


----------



## Group9

MikeOReilly said:


> Nicely said. I would add that poverty is more a relative concept than an absolute. This is why our society's growing income inequalities are so pernicious. If everyone is more or less at the same level, be that making $5k/year or $500K, it doesn't really matter. The economic support systems that deliver stuff like food, water, shelter, etc. are available at accessible prices. It's only when we get into highly stratified societies where the big financial divide (which becomes the big power divide) produces real poverty, and all the associated challenges that brings.
> 
> But this brings me to a question or concern I have for myself. The fact is that I _have_ lived at well below our target $500/month, and have never been seduced by the trappings of our high-consumer society. That said, the last few years have seen my spouse and I bringing in an income well above the poverty level. The fact is, we would not be able to have the boat we have, and be in a position to sail away, if we hadn't.
> 
> Living frugally is as much a skill as anything. Without practice, it becomes rusty. Will we be able to permanently shift back to a low-cost lifestyle as we slowly transition to life afloat? I think so, but I know my own weaknesses.
> 
> The nice thing is, we really have no choice but to live frugally. When you have no choice, then the choices are easy .


I was visiting with my brother over Thanksgiving who has a bare bones cabin in Alaska and a huge house on ten acres in Florida. He was telling me how many people in Alaska live in houses without electricity, or running water, that would be illegal to live in, in most places in the US, but who are some of the happiest people he has ever seen. He also travels all over the world, and has become somewhat changed from what he has seen he says. Americans excel in excess.

Comfort, and enough, is very relative.


----------



## krisscross

I can easily cruise on a $500/month budget, especially here in US. There was a period in my life when I lived well below poverty level, at times practicing the art of dumpster diving, so living on the cheap is quite easy for me. But if I was with someone who is not used to such a life and who does not like it, I'm not sure I would even try it.


----------



## timor-bound

You can definitely do it in the Sea of Cortez. I know guys who have been living off their $700 month veterans checks down here for 10+years. They are some salty, salty dudes though. Your average cruiser doesn't have the stomach for a heavy budget. Most young people who try, blow the majority of their money on booze and partying. You have to be disciplined.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

You might be able to do it in one country.... But have a look at the subject: Voyaging.

You can't go voyaging in one neck of the woods.


----------



## travlin-easy

If I could find a cheap, fast method of manufacturing rum, I could cruise forever.

Gary


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

travlineasy said:


> If I could find a cheap, fast method of manufacturing rum, I could cruise forever.
> 
> Gary


Its about $10 per litre here in the Caribbean.


----------



## JonEisberg

krisscross said:


> I can easily cruise on a $500/month budget, especially here in US.


Sure, but for _HOW LONG?_

Indefinitely? I doubt it...



timor-bound said:


> You can definitely do it in the Sea of Cortez. I know guys who have been living off their $700 month veterans checks down here for 10+years. They are some salty, salty dudes though.


It can probably be done in Florida, as well - I see people down there living aboard on a tight budget all over the place...

As Mark says, however, not exactly my idea of "Voyaging"...

)


----------



## MikeOReilly

Great to hear people are living inexpensively on their boats "all over the place." Would be even better if it is a place where rum is cheap . What difference does it make if someone "voyages" around the bay, or around the world?


----------



## mitiempo

MikeOReilly said:


> What difference does it make if someone "voyages" around the bay, or around the world?


As long as they are happy about the area they are in no difference at all. Many have spent a year or multiple years in the Sea of Cortez.


----------



## newhaul

JonEisberg said:


> Sure, but for _HOW LONG?_
> 
> Indefinitely? I doubt it...
> 
> It can probably be done in Florida, as well - I see people down there living aboard on a tight budget all over the place...
> 
> As Mark says, however, not exactly my idea of "Voyaging"...
> 
> )


That doesn't look like those boats move much mine moves all the time I may not go far but I do go what is the purpose of having a boat if not to use it I like the law here on anchoring officially you have to move a minimum of 5 miles not being anchored in the same spot for over thirty consecutive days weeds out the ones that can't move or won't move


----------



## MikeOReilly

newhaul said:


> That doesn't look like those boats move much mine moves all the time I may not go far but I do go what is the purpose of having a boat if not to use it I like the law here on anchoring officially you have to move a minimum of 5 miles not being anchored in the same spot for over thirty consecutive days weeds out the ones that can't move or won't move


I assume the reason for this law is to ensure the prime anchoring spaces don't get hogged by a few individuals, or become permanent moorings. This certainly makes sense in areas of high population. We see similar statues for crown land camping up here. No such laws for anchoring though -- b/c there just ain't that many boaters.

But this has little to do with people who want to "voyage" inexpensively. Frugal cruiser likely can't afford to spend a lot of time in places where everyone wants to be. That's one of the realities of "voyaging" cheaply.


----------



## newhaul

Actually was to get rid of many derelict and unsafe vessels


----------



## MedSailor

travlineasy said:


> If I could find a cheap, fast method of manufacturing rum, I could cruise forever.
> 
> Gary


You're welcome.  Also, ask me about brewing beer and apple wine. I've perfected the art of brewing aboard a sailboat. 







As an additional note, the brewing equipment they use to create the base for distilling the alcohol is the same equipment you use for brewing beer. About 75% overlap in equipment. Also the distilling rig (not needed for brewing beer and wine) can be used by itself to distill seawater into fresh water if needed.

MedSailor


----------



## travlin-easy

Beer I can make - rum takes a lot more time.

Gary


----------



## jerryrlitton

When I was living in Saudi where liqueur is frowned upon (publicly anyway) and living in a western compound we had several operating bars and they were all hand rolled. One guy would specialize in beer, another in wines, others in whiskys and tequilas etc. I am not sure how a moving platform will affect the operation. I think beer may be a problem


----------



## jerryrlitton

MarkofSeaLife said:


> You might be able to do it in one country.... But have a look at the subject: Voyaging.
> 
> You can't go voyaging in one neck of the woods.


I supposed to depends on what one calls voyaging and how big the neck is. Here in the Andaman Sea I have seen (first hand) Aeventyr do this very succefully. He can and does accomplish this for under 500 USD/month and having a blast. Check out some of his posts. Not because he has to, because he WANTS to. How big is this neck? Try west coast of Thailand south to Malaysia east thru the straits to Singapore and south to the Philippines. Now there are a few here that there is no budget large enough. And besides what do you call "Budgetable" after you spend it? (Emergency airfare for your sick dog etc) 
500 USD is totally doable. However is it realistic? Personally I think it is a good aiming point. A goal if you will. I always belived a goal is very important HOWEVER not reaching it is not the end of the world. But goals gives us direction. 
There is a fine line between surviving, being satisfied and having fun. In my 57 years I have found this to be a state of mind subject to many factors and it can change daily. Is 500 USD doable for me? Probably yes, realistic? Probably not however I will plan accordingly for when I retire next year. I know where I am going. I just need to be introduced to my boat.
Just don't let some numbers frighten you off from trying. Remember it is OK not to reach your goal but it is important to have a direction.

Come to the edge.
We might fall.
Come to the edge.
It's too high!
COME TO THE EDGE!
And they came,
and he pushed,
and they flew.

_Christopher Loque_

Jerry


----------



## aeventyr60

My dog hasn't died yet.........

It stack up like this for FY 2014
3K Boat
2K trip to USA
1K engineering class
4K Fun Sailing, Diving, Eating, Drinking and of course some free WIFI.


----------



## jerryrlitton

555. Burial at sea is cheap. Just need some sail cloth, last stitch thru the nose to assure death and some round shot. Am I callouse or what?


----------



## MikeOReilly

MedSailor said:


> You're welcome.  Also, ask me about brewing beer and apple wine. I've perfected the art of brewing aboard a sailboat.


OK, I'm asking Med. What do you use? What's your setup? How much do you make at one time? I well versed in wine and beer making on land, but I haven't figured out how to do it efficiently on our smallish boat.



travlineasy said:


> Beer I can make - rum takes a lot more time.


Agreed. Beer and wine do me just fine .


----------



## newhaul

travlineasy said:


> Beer I can make - rum takes a lot more time.
> 
> Gary


Actually only takes about two weeks to make a batch of rum from start to drinking rum how long to brew beer to drinking I have made shine and all but never beer or wine


----------



## travlin-easy

Yes, you can make rum in as little as a week or less, but it tastes like denatured alcohol at best. Good rum is aged up to 10 years in charred oak barrels. And, it has to be diluted or it's up to 95 percent pure alcohol - portent enough to kill you. At my age, I don't have 10 years to wait. 

Cheers,

Gary


----------



## newhaul

Actually Gary you cut the aging time by using charred oak chips in the finished ageing barrel I have never actually made rum but I have done the same with whiskey and to good result also I have never tasted denatured alcohol that stuff will kill you


----------



## jerryrlitton

newhaul said:


> Actually Gary you cut the aging time by using charred oak chips in the finished ageing barrel I have never actually made rum but I have done the same with whiskey and to good result also I have never tasted denatured alcohol that stuff will kill you


Exactly. When I would return from the states for Saudi I would bring back bags of the Jack Daniels wood chips (in other wrappings of course) so the brewmasters could make better tasting product. I have no idea of the process however my drinks were cheaper.


----------



## MedSailor

MikeOReilly said:


> OK, I'm asking Med. What do you use? What's your setup? How much do you make at one time? *I well versed in wine and beer making on land*, but I haven't figured out how to do it efficiently on our smallish boat.


Awesome! That means I can give you the shorthand version. I really need to make a dedicated post with pictures of my setup some day...

The basic trick is to use the Cooper's kit. Although I see they have changed their fermenter a little. What's great about this kit is that the fermenter has a tap in the bottom, so there is no need for a siphon, or secondary. Just bottle straight from the fermenter when it's ready. Also, the cooper's fermenter has a lot of headspace, so sloshing is no big deal.










The other great thing about this kit is the sturdy, dark colored PET bottles with screw caps. They're double size (who only has one beer anyway right?  ) and the screw caps eliminate the need for bottle caps (which rust) and a capper.










When brewing, it helps to have a SS kettle that has a tap installed. That way you don't have to maneuver it around the galley and you don't risk spilling when that powerboat wake hits you unexpectedly.










For cooling the wort tubing can be run through a plate chiller, or other wort chiller and finally to an aeration nozzle to oxygenate the brew. If you've got a saltwater washdown pump, that can be used in a counter-flow wort chiller or a plate chiller to great effect. If not, a galley sink full of ice with the chiller tubing in the sink works. Additionally I have dumped ice directly in the wort (2 bags) with good results and never worry about infection. Finally, I've floated the cooper's fermenter next to the boat in the cold PNW water while it chilled out. 

Carbonation is achieved using cooper's drops. 









Plop one in if you're using a standard size bottle. 2 if you're using a coopers plastic bottle. Sugar cubes, or measured table sugar can also be used. This step eliminates the need for a bottling bucket and all the associated bucket transfer equipment.

Sanitation is achieved using Star San. Which is easy to use and doesn't require any rinsing, thus saving water.

Finally, I've been playing around with modified recipes using pre-hopped malt extract augmented with Dried Malt Extract with great results. These ingredients are shelf stable for years, unlike liquid malt extract and leaf or pellet hops which are more common here. If you use this kind of kit brewing, you don't even need a brew kettle at all! Also, this kind of kit augmentation is basically unheard of on the USA but is extremely common in the UK and Australia. The aussiehomebrewer website has great recipies for using canned brews, with some extra ingredients and they absolutely taste great. I'm a bit of a beer snob and I agree. If you tweak the kits, they can be very good.

This video shows just how much easier the coopers technique is. Add a little hop tea, or use 2 cans instead of a can + sugar etc and it couldn't be simpler. This could be done on a boat right?






MedSailor


----------



## JonEisberg

MikeOReilly said:


> Great to hear people are living inexpensively on their boats "all over the place." Would be even better if it is a place where rum is cheap . What difference does it make if someone "voyages" around the bay, or around the world?


Don't disagree, but those boats I pictured aren't even capable of "voyaging" as far as the nearest pump out station... 

I know we're all supposed to Live & Let Live around here , but one issue is that such 'cruisers' are ultimately creating problems for the rest of us, as we're now seeing with anchoring issues in places like Florida, for example...

Throughout the course of this thread, I've stuck with the notion of "Voyaging" as initially defined by the OP, where he specifically refers to his annual budget the next time he "heads offshore"... Certainly, there are all varieties of 'cruising', but I've taken him to imply sailing to some fairly distant places, and not returning to a home base routinely...


----------



## MikeOReilly

MedSailor said:


> Awesome! That means I can give you the shorthand version. I really need to make a dedicated post with pictures of my setup some day...


Thanks Med, I like that fermenter and kettle. I've always used glass carboys and syphoned from the top. This set up would be far easier. Can you re-use the plastic bottle caps? Where did you get that nice kettle?

When I was making my own beers I would usually start with a basic concentrated malt kit, but then hop it up with various dry and fresh hops. I also liked to make a lot of natural wines; dandelion, rhubarb, rose petal, mead, apple/pear ... just about anything (except grape ).


----------



## travlin-easy

Mike and others, I have a Mr Beer kit that my son gave me for Christmas about 10 years ago - works great, makes some really good beer, and yes, those plastic bottles are reusable.

Gary


----------



## MikeOReilly

travlineasy said:


> Mike and others, I have a Mr Beer kit that my son gave me for Christmas about 10 years ago - works great, makes some really good beer, and yes, those plastic bottles are reusable.


Thanks for this too Gary. Looks like they sell the same fermenter. For some reason I was stuck on the idea of having to use glass carboys and my old glass bottles (lovely green Grolsch bottles with snap caps -- if anyone wants to buy them I have dozens ).


----------



## MedSailor

MikeOReilly said:


> Thanks Med, I like that fermenter and kettle. I've always used glass carboys and syphoned from the top. This set up would be far easier. Can you re-use the plastic bottle caps? Where did you get that nice kettle?
> 
> When I was making my own beers I would usually start with a basic concentrated malt kit, but then hop it up with various dry and fresh hops. I also liked to make a lot of natural wines; dandelion, rhubarb, rose petal, mead, apple/pear ... just about anything (except grape ).


The kettles can be had at any homebrew supply store. The biggest on the net are austin homebrew supply and Northern brewer, with monsterbrew, and morebeer.com being the cheapest. The kettles with spigots are expensive. Luckily you can buy a kit with a gasket and drill a single hole and install the spigot yourself. I've seen them as low as $20. The only downside to this, over a welded one is it's one more thing to clean. Not a big deal...

Installing your own spigot to your brew kettle

I fear that coopers has changed their fermenter enough that it may no longer be suitable. I loved that mine has a sturdy screw on lid and is totally airtight (except for the hole for the airlock and with 5 gals of beer, and 7gals of space, foam and sloshing are no big deal. The bottles can be bought separately, and yes the caps are reusable. If you loose a cap, a soda bottle cap fits. Just don't bottle the beer in soda bottles unless you're sure you can keep it out of the sunlight. If you can, go ahead and use soda bottles.

You could re-create a cooper's style fermenter with a sturdy lid using a 7 or 8 gallon bottling bucket (they have a spigot) and a gamma seal lid. Drill a hole in the top of the lid, insert a rubber bung (with hole for airlock) and insert your airlock into that.










+









+










+










=


----------



## MedSailor

If you really want to get fancy, but are really lazy (like me) the folks over at aussiehomebrewer.com have created an amazing spreadsheet that allows you to calculate what your beer will turn out like when you start messing with canned brews. Unlike the similar calculators you may find on USA homebrew sites, this one is free and uses kit brews! It's the "Kit and Kilo Calculator." The nickname for the coopers and other pre-hopped extracts is "Kit and kilo" because the directions recommend you use one kit of beer and one kilo of sugar.

Lets be clear. Following the original directions and using table sugar will make nasty beer.

However, if, instead of sugar, you add 2lbs of dried amber malt extract and 2lbs of light malt extract and decrease the water by 2 liters (play around with the spreadsheet) on your Coopers IPA kit, you may have an awesome brew on your hands. There's also fun to be had by mixing and matching the kits.

Can of stout + can of IPA = surprisingly good darkside IPA.

Of course, control of fermentation temperature (especially in the first few days) sanitation, and other important techniques apply, or your beer will turn out crap.

Have fun!

MedSailor


----------



## Minnesail

MedSailor said:


> The kettles can be had at any homebrew supply store. The biggest on the net are austin homebrew supply and Northern brewer


Thanks for the Northern Brewer shout out! I have no connection to them except that they are local to me, really good people, and I've bought a few things from them.

Northern Brewer


----------



## miatapaul

MedSailor said:


>


I really like that fermenter. Looks like it would work really well. Too bad they changed to the one with the slip on lid.


----------



## MedSailor

miatapaul said:


> I really like that fermenter. Looks like it would work really well. Too bad they changed to the one with the slip on lid.


Yeah. What I really liked about it was that it was sturdy and easy to clean with a big lid (which are all things a bucket with a good lid has) but the spin on top was transparent so you could watch the yeast work (like a glass carboy).

The bottling bucket (bucket with spigot) and a sturdy lid with a bung for the airlock should work well, but yes, it was a great design. It even had indentations which acted as handles for easily carrying it.

MedSailor


----------



## travlin-easy

Where would you store that monster on a boat? It looks huge.

Gary


----------



## MikeOReilly

I think it's a 30 litre (~6 US gallon) carboy. It would be awkward, but I could store it in our head, or perhaps tucked away in the quarter berth. I assume people aren't brewing while underway -- are you?

How large is your Mr. Beer fermentor Gary? How much does it make?


----------



## MedSailor

travlineasy said:


> Where would you store that monster on a boat? It looks huge.
> 
> Gary


Thanks Gary, you're making me blush.  Oh, you mean the fermenter. 

It's a bit taller and wider than a 5 gallon bucket. My formosa had a cavernous lazarette locker. My Nauticat has even more storage. The lazarette was a nice location if you don't like the aroma of fermentation. It's kind of like sour-dough bread, but can be strong in a small boat for a couple days during peak fermentation. Some love it, others find it objectionable.

Mike, I've always brewed dockside where I can use/waste all the fresh water I want. I've been working the technique to the point where I could do it at anchor. Immediately after clearing Canadian customs (where beer is >1$/beer) would be one time I would try it.  I wouldn't brew while actually sailing but in a quiet anchorage.... sure.

MedSailor


----------



## travlin-easy

Mike, here's the kit I have. Mr.Beer Premium Kits


----------



## elgatosunrise

In my experience, a modest travel budget (500/month) can be done. But the key, is not stopping at marinas very often and avoiding the restaurants and bars.
Save your money for repairs and maintenance. 
Catch your own fish.
Mix your own drinks.
Drop your own hook.
Cruise for many months...or years.


----------



## MikeOReilly

elgatosunrise said:


> In my experience, a modest travel budget (500/month) can be done. But the key, is not stopping at marinas very often and avoiding the restaurants and bars.
> Save your money for repairs and maintenance.
> Catch your own fish.
> Mix your own drinks.
> Drop your own hook.
> Cruise for many months...or years.


Exactly! And make your own beer (just to keep that theme going).


----------



## MedSailor

Now for the REAL down and dirty cheap, no special equipment needed, DIY brewing on a boat:

s/v hello world: self reliance

These guys are friends of mine and we used to be dock neighbors in seattle. I know they don't drink crap beer, so when they said this recipe turned out well, I was.... well... surprised.

According to the sailnet equivalent american brewing forum everything about the above recipe would not work. Can't be done. Kind of like saying you like to anchor on a CQR with rope.... can't be done!

Since I was a brewer, I was intrigued and repeated their recipe and technique exactly. It DID in fact turn out quite good. I can't say I'd use the collapsible jug again because it was a PITA to clean, but I have to admit that aside from the airlock and bung there was NO special equipment. The airlock could actually be improvised too....

MedSailor


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

Brewing beer on the boat is fine. I did it in many countries. Always worked out well, even at sea.
I don't brew in the Caribbean as beer is $16 per case so its cheaper and easier to buy it.

The other good thing is that the kit beer (I used Coopers in Australia, now available world wide Coopers DIY Beer Kit ) does NOT contain alcohol until you brew it. So if you sail into a country with alcohol tax or prohibition you are still fine with the kit. Clear in and brew up!

But when French red wine, Bordeaux, to wit, is $5 per bottle who drinks beer?


----------



## aeventyr60

MedSailor said:


> Thanks Gary, you're making me blush.  Oh, you mean the fermenter.
> 
> It's a bit taller and wider than a 5 gallon bucket. My formosa had a cavernous lazarette locker. My Nauticat has even more storage. The lazarette was a nice location if you don't like the aroma of fermentation. It's kind of like sour-dough bread, but can be strong in a small boat for a couple days during peak fermentation. Some love it, others find it objectionable.
> 
> Mike, I've always brewed dockside where I can use/waste all the fresh water I want. I've been working the technique to the point where I could do it at anchor. Immediately after clearing Canadian customs (where beer is >1$/beer) would be one time I would try it.  I wouldn't brew while actually sailing but in a quiet anchorage.... sure.
> 
> MedSailor


I had that barrel strapped to the mast down below and brewed up Coopers Ale while sailing all the way up behind the Great Barrier Reef. To extend your drinking pleasure try some of the Ginger Beer mixes. They only take a week in the secondary fermentation stage to be able to drink.


----------



## MikeOReilly

With the approaching penultimate consumerist day know as christmas, I wonder how us apparently frugal folk approach this season. My spouse and I have scaled back our event over the years. We no longer travel to be with family - we travel during less-frenetic times of the year. But we'll still kill a tree this year (one in our front yard), eat too much, and exchange a few gifts. This will be our last x-mas season in our shack on Lake Superior so we're taking extra time just trying to enjoy the space.

Not sure what this post is -- except to say, I hope you all have a relaxing and enjoyable holiday season.


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## Tallswede

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours too Mike. We are having a little gathering of the families at our house. Nothing fancy, just a get together to see one another. We have also told every one not to get us anything as we have every thing we need and then some (except time off of work lol).

Kevin


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## newhaul

Merry Christmas to all


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## travlin-easy

The month of December is my busiest month of the year. Though I've cut back on the number of jobs I take by a substantial margin, I still have 23 Christmas parties this December, followed by 2 New Year's Eve parties, then a New Year's Day Party. By the time Christmas day arrives, I'm so tired of performing Christmas songs that I want to scream.  Yes, it's really me playing the keyboard and me singing.

So, here's my Christmas contribution to the members of this forum: https://app.box.com/s/l7i5jjw5w7hgi315qilm

Gary


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## mbianka

My gal and I long ago stopped giving each other Christmas presents. If each of us need something we will buy it ourselves. We don't need anymore "stuff" in our lives bought by others. We have a very low key Christmas which includes being invited to a friends house for dinner. No hectic holiday travel through airports involved. Our only major travel is a mid winter catamaran charter somewhere in the world where it is warm. That takes a good chunk out of the winter and then it's a much easier wait for the boats spring launch. The charter is kind of our Christmas present to ourselves. The price of which works out to around $500 per month when averaged. Merry Christmas!


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## Johnniegee

I raised 2 Daughters on land that went to public schools. I was involved with the education from the start and always told them to position themselves to take care of themselves. So all turned out well. I got to be a Dad and the kids went on to earn enough where the will never be dumpster divers. Land or sea if you are involved in your child's life and guide them through the problems that arise they can grow the be productive adults. Land or sea commit yourself to raising a adaptive and productive children. I am now retired and hope to be a sailor one day. Now the problem is I have to hurry because age is getting in the way.


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## travlin-easy

John, gettin' old ain't fer wimps and sissies - and it ain't near as much fun as some folks said it would be. I'm probably not the oldest guy on this forum, but at 74 I feel like I can make a few more trips down the Atlantic coast to the Florida Keys and Dry Tortugas. The body parts need some tweaking and tuning, which they will get during the next three months, then it's back behind the helm for me.

Good luck,

Gary


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## mbianka

Just heard from a recently retired co-worker who finally got to start living his "dream". He finally got underway in mid November traveling down the ICW. About a two weeks ago he headed out into the Atlantic for a hop down to Miami before crossing over to the Bahamas for the winter. At 3AM while 10 miles off the coast south of Melbourne Beach they lost the prop. Had to get towed in and tied up at a marina. He's still there but, got a new prop and is waiting for a weather window. If his budget was just $500 a month he just through blew through about two months worth in two weeks. Lesson is you should always expect the unexpected and budget accordingly.


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## MikeOReilly

Hi John, welcome to this frugal cruising discussion. There's lots of practical experience and wisdom in these many, many pages, but one of the underlying themes is that none of us are getting any younger. Time is the one thing one can never get back. I see this ongoing discussion as a search for the sweet spot between wealth, security, comfort, freedom, adventure and mortality. 

It's great to have you with us.


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## christian.hess

well Merry Christmas guys!!!

just a quick poke in here...


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## travlin-easy

Well, I just blew the entire year's budget in three days. Three days in the upper Chesapeake Medical Center hospital - $15,000 and I'm still very sick. The antibiotics are $20 per pill. Now my wife has contracted the same virus.

Stay healthy my friends,

Gary


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## DHusk

Very sorry to hear that, Gary. Get well soon and take good care of your wife. Hope the new year brings good health.


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## mbianka

travlineasy said:


> Well, I just blew the entire year's budget in three days. Three days in the upper Chesapeake Medical Center hospital - $15,000 and I'm still very sick. The antibiotics are $20 per pill.


How many times I got to tell you Mon. Stay away from de island women. Dey no good for you.

Seriously, I hope you feel better soon. Do you think you picked up the virus in the Chesapeake area? We are heading to the Caribbean soon and my gal is freaked about the Chikungunya virus which is increasing in the region. It is expected to show up here in the states at some point. She talked to her doctor about it in Washington DC. Turns out her Dr. already had three patients who have come down with it.


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## MikeOReilly

travlineasy said:


> Well, I just blew the entire year's budget in three days. Three days in the upper Chesapeake Medical Center hospital - $15,000 and I'm still very sick. The antibiotics are $20 per pill. Now my wife has contracted the same virus.


So sorry to hear this news Gary. Very glad to hear you're on the mend, and dearly hope your wife is also as resilient.

I gotta say, this story reinforces my growing fear about travel through the USA. It just blows me away that one can rack up a $15,000 bill for a three-day hospital stay over an infection. No civilized society should do this to its citizens.

Get well my friend. And remember, we have a beer date for sometime in the next few years. Don't be trying to get out of it .


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## travlin-easy

Hi Mike, I really want to buy you that beer, but the disease I contracted almost made that impossible. I apparently contracted a very contagious virus, one that attacked my already compromised lungs. I was transported to the hospital in horrid condition, unable to breathe, my lips and fingernail beds were blue as ink, and there were times when I was in and out of consciousness. After three days in the hospital, with IV fluids, IV antibiotics, and nasal oxygen, I was able to return home, but still am very, very ill. I had to cancel three NYE parties, a NYD party, and a private party because of this horrible disease. I've never been this sick in my life, and hope I never will be this sick again. I'm weak as a kitten, my vision is blurred, and have no appetite. I've lost 12 pounds of weight in just four days and don't really have the desire to eat. That's a really bad sign for a guy that loves all foods.

Mike, the cost of some of the medications is out of sight, and the drug companies are the world's new wealth barons. One pill that I was taking cost $195 each, and none of the antibiotics I took were less than $20 per pill. Many of the injectibles were well in excess of $500 per dose. That adds up quickly. Add to this round the clock nursing staff, physicians that cannot speak English, technicians, etc..., and the cost of healthcare skyrockets. The quality is, IMO, marginal at best, but as my wife says about me, better than nothing. 

I could not imagine this happening while underway to some far-off destination as a single handed sailor. At best, you would get lucky and drown. The virus is extremely debilitating, there is no way you could handle the sails, or even motor in this compromised condition. And, because it is so contagious, there is no foreign port that you could enter - you never get out of quarantine. You would just lay on the bunk and slowly wither away. I've had several close brushes with death in my 74 year lifespan, but I've never been this deathly ill. 

Thanks again for thinking of me, and I hope to be back to work in the very near future,

Gary


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## jerryrlitton

Gary, most of us can only imagine what you and yours are going through. Yes if we were alone and worse alone on a boat it would be way worse. Get better soon buddy. 

Jerry


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## MikeOReilly

What a horror this must be Gary. My deepest sympathies, and all the best vibes I can send through the aether, are headed your way. 

The cost of pharmaceuticals are criminal, and it's not much better up here. While Canadian public healthcare covers the cost of physicians and hospitals, drugs outside of institutions are still borne by individuals. I understand the need for a reasonable ROI in a capitalist world, which is why services like healthcare need to be tempered by a solid socialist approach. 

You raise an important issue about getting ill while cruising. I once suffered through a 24-hr flu while on a week-long delivery in late Fall up here on the Great Lakes. It was stormy weather and I was miserable for a day. Luckily there were two of us on board, so I managed OK. If I had been alone I'm not sure what I would have done. And this is only the flu ... nothing like what has struck you down Gary.

Get well my friend.


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## newhaul

Get well soon my friend how is your wife doing in her battle with this


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## travlin-easy

Newhaul, my wife, Carol is really having a rough go with this, and some online research revealed it can take up to 14 days before you feel up to snuff with this virus. And when your an old fart, a category which my wife and I fall into, and have some additional underlying health conditions, it can actually be fatal if precautions are not taken. I'm hoping to get south in the next week, away from the frozen wilds of Maryland, and play music to ladies at poolside wearing skimpy bikinis. 

Thanks,

Gary


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## mbianka

travlineasy said:


> Newhaul, my wife, Carol is really having a rough go with this, and some online research revealed it can take up to 14 days before you feel up to snuff with this virus. And when your an old fart, a category which my wife and I fall into, and have some additional underlying health conditions, it can actually be fatal if precautions are not taken. I'm hoping to get south in the next week, away from the frozen wilds of Maryland, and play music to ladies at poolside wearing skimpy bikinis.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Gary


Gary:

Sounds like a good plan. I may follow you. I currently have some congestion and a cough but, sounds nothing like you have. Though it looks like you are currently in the Hot Zone for the flu:
Ill. reports high flu activity, CDC says nation at epidemic threshold | abc7chicago.com
Had a bad upper respiratory condition a few years ago at the beginning of a charter. A few days in the sun and swimming in the salt water in the Spanish Virgins made things all better and those things did not count as budget items.  Following the sun seems like good advice. Wishing you and the misses a speedy recovery.


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## MedSailor

Gary,

Sorry to hear that you and your wife are so sick. Positive thoughts headed your way to you and yours (no charge). Care to share with the medically curious (public or PM) what the virus was? Flu? Ebola? Relaxing remitting hemmorhagic boo-boo-gigi fever? 

You're right about the cost of treatment and the drugs. There are a lot of people making a LOT of money off of this stuff. The latest trend is specialty drugs, which account for 1% of prescriptions and 25% of all prescription drug spending. Gary's story should provide a cautonary tale about attempting to cruise in the USA without health insurance. It can wipe out your entire cruising kitty VERY quickly!

Gary, take care of yourself and your wife. Hopefully in a few weeks this will just be an unpleasant memory. 

MedSailor


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## krisscross

My sympathies, Gary. Glad to hear you pulled through. Hopefully you and your good wife will soon fully recover. I try to stay away from the racket of US healthcare industry but sometimes one has no choice. You got hosed big time, but at least you are alive to pay the bills (that seems to be their motto).


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## MikeOReilly

So, to bring this back to the topic, how do people manage this potentially sizeable cost? As a frugal cruiser I am increasingly concerned that I may have to bypass the USA completely. Given where we are in the world (Canada), this is difficult. 

Anyone have an inexpensive solution, or am I committed to the Bermuda to Bahamas run?


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## krisscross

MikeOReilly said:


> Anyone have an inexpensive solution, or am I committed to the Bermuda to Bahamas run?


Inexpensive solution to high cost of US healthcare for Canadians?

Don't get sick.
Bypass US altogether.
If you do get sick and end up racking up a big bill - get in your boat and run.


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## MedSailor

MikeOReilly said:


> So, to bring this back to the topic, how do people manage this potentially sizeable cost? As a frugal cruiser I am increasingly concerned that I may have to bypass the USA completely. Given where we are in the world (Canada), this is difficult.
> 
> Anyone have an inexpensive solution, or am I committed to the Bermuda to Bahamas run?


I'm not sure how this works for members of the 51st state. It might be that your government foots the bill for your care while you're here.

A few years ago when I was a hospitalist I had an interesting interaction with Health Canada. A Canadian citizen was admitted to our hospital with chest pain and we were observing her to see if she was having (or about to have) a heart attack.

Health Canada had a physican call me several times to discuss her case and at times he had more up to date lab and vital information than I had seen. He was interested in my plan of care and at the first sign that we were about to do something expensive he sent an ambulance to go get her. He never put any pressure on me to move her in an unstable condition, which I appreciated, and I knew that she only needed one more day in the hospital but it seems that sending an ambulance to go get her and continuing her care up north was cheaper than having her stay here for one more day.

MedSailor


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## MikeOReilly

MedSailor said:


> I'm not sure how this works for members of the 51st state. It might be that your government foots the bill for your care while you're here.
> 
> A few years ago when I was a hospitalist I had an interesting interaction with Health Canada. A Canadian citizen was admitted to our hospital with chest pain and we were observing her to see if she was having (or about to have) a heart attack.


Makes sense Med. Our medicare will pay for out-of-province expenses up to the level it would have cost up here, in my case here in Ontario. Interestingly, this produces some challenges within Canada b/c each province maintains its own health insurance program. Not all cover things at the same level ... but the differences between provinces are mostly minor compared to US-to-Canada costs.

I guess I'm thinking of basic evacuation insurance for my travels through the 11th province . Anyone know anything about those types of policies, and how they would apply for Canadians in the U$A?


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## Waterrat

It has been since 2009 but I purchased travel insurance while traveling for six months through central and South America and it was quite reasonable. Supposedly they would medically evac me back to the states if crap hit the fan. I think it cost me less then 200 bucks for the six months. My wife and I bused around Dominican Republic for 10 days last spring and purchased travel insurance for less the 100 bucks. In hind sight that was 5% of our travel budget including flights but it gave piece of mind. There are many insurance companies that will cover you for a couple of months. Shop around a little and I bet for less then 100-200 bucks you and your wife could be insured of total wealth destruction from our sociacoporate health systems for a few months. I hate insurance companies but it sure does bring some piece of mind.


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## barefootnavigator

Yet another reason to voyage on 500 per month. Health insurance is the culprit. I had all my ducks in a row, money in the bank blah blah blah. A person very near and dear to me was dying and our medical system could not do a damn thing. She had been bed ridden for 6 months and fading fast. I decided to try ancient Chinese medicine as a last resort and now she is 90 percent recovered and out and about doing great. It killed the cruising kitty but who cares. Spring is coming and again we will set off for 6 months with a whopping 3K saved for the trip. Will we have to go back to work at the end? Sure. If there is anyone here who can complain about only getting 6 months in I'm sure they will chime in but we were very happy with the outcome of the situation and spring is literally beating our door down. For all you budget guys out there stick too it and keep reading the is thread. I just finished re reading the whole thing from start to finish and its a gold mine for those who voyage on a limited budget regardless what it is. Life is good here in the Islands.


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## mrhoneydew

Ohhhh yeah! Spring is around the corner! I fly to Mexico on Monday for a week to sit on the beach with a fruity drink and a book. After I get home I go to the Seattle Boat Show and write some articles for a local online boating magazine... and before you know it May will be here when I haul out to do some work on the boat before I head up the Inside Passage into Canada for 3 months or so. There is something about getting the holidays out of the way. It doesn't much matter what the weather looks like outside... that bug still bites! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeOReilly

Spring...? Well, it has warmed up to a balmy -25 C today (that's -13 F for my American friends). Ice is still building on Lake Superior, and it's snowing.

I have a good imagination, but I won't be conjuring up Spring for some months yet .


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## newhaul

Warm and comfy 65 here in the pnw and just a lil update just installed the windy nation 200 watt solar kit cost 325 all included even the bolts and bedding butyl will eliminate the 50 amp battery charger saving 20 bucks a month on power at home and a half gallon diesel a day on the hook will pay for its self by July. Has been carrying all the 12v power needs for about a week now can hardly wait to see how it does with more direct sun later this year it is still winter by solar angles


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## MikeOReilly

Good to hear newhaul. I just bought three 150watt panels (450watts) to add to our 100 watts we currently have, plus the 400 watt wind generator. I'm pretty confident that with these additions I'll be able to sell power to my fellow cruisers .

BTW, it was -10C (-25C with wind chill) down at our boat yesterday. We're on the Bay of Quinte right now, and it's completely and solidly frozen in. We launch April 26th, which seems wildly optimistic right now, but the weather has to turn sometime. Actually, they are predicting above-zero highs all next week, so who knows. The water might actually turn soft sometime soonish.


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## mitiempo

MikeOReilly said:


> The water might actually turn soft sometime soonish.


By June or July anyway.

It's cold in Victoria - currently only 11.5 C in the harbour.


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## MikeOReilly

mitiempo said:


> It's cold in Victoria - currently only 11.5 C in the harbour.


I think I hate you


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## travlin-easy

56 degrees at the boat today - Eat your heart out, Mike! 

Gary


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## MikeOReilly

Can I report you both to the mods for inflicting cruel and unusual punishment?


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## mitiempo

travlineasy said:


> 56 degrees at the boat today - Eat your heart out, Mike!
> 
> Gary


With snow on the ground....

We don't haul out in the winter, sail year round and only have a rare 2"
or 3" snowfall. Had one late last year for the first time in 3 years. Been springlike here for weeks.


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## aeventyr60

MikeOReilly said:


> Can I report you both to the mods for inflicting cruel and unusual punishment?


Only 78 F here at 0700, should warm up to 85 or so this afternoon......:laugher


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## newhaul

Mike you need to move south and west its 65°f or 18°c here and only froze 3 nights all winter here in Seattle.


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## newhaul

Today full charged by 12 noon and carrying the new refer no problem


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## MikeOReilly

You guys are just plain mean. My wife just got back home to find no water b/c our pipes are frozen, and the plastic garage caved in from snow ... and all this so we could go look at our boat which is frozen into the snow pack down in "southern" Ontario.

... I do need to move south & west


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## Capt Len

I guess that this the time to tell you about returning from a few months of beach time in Thailand to be faced with pruning the fruit trees and getting the raised beds ready for the tomatoes and harvesting the last of the winter crops. Life here on the coast is just one damm thing after another.


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## newhaul

Capt Len said:


> I guess that this the time to tell you about returning from a few months of beach time in Thailand to be faced with pruning the fruit trees and getting the raised beds ready for the tomatoes and harvesting the last of the winter crops. Life here on the coast is just one damm thing after another.


Yep had to mow inlaws yard this weekend. This winter sucks shouldn't need mowing for another month :laugher


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## mitiempo

Mike - it's the global warming, but you just aren't getting your share of it.


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## Bob142

People already are finding out about our sailing and scenery and now you are promoting our weather...


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## newhaul

Oops I ment to say its crappy and soggy rainny and foggy all the time


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## larrytwo

Bob142 said:


> People already are finding out about our sailing and scenery and now you are promoting our weather...


Yes well worth checking out...


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## travlin-easy

Unfortunately, the average temperature is well below my age, which is the guideline I use for determining whether or not I go sailing. 

Gary


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## ccriders

I sense sone piling on here. But Mike knows that those who live in very benign climates become softies and after a few years of it only sail when it's 70 degrees and the wind is a steady 10 knots from some place other than on the nose. No, mike is one of those Garrison Keoller types, or Sweedish types, you know adversity only makes you stronger, so let's practice being miserable. I'll bet he sails in stuff that would make most of us huddle in the cabin in misery.
Happy sails (when it thaws)
John


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## MikeOReilly

ccriders said:


> No, mike is one of those Garrison Keoller types, or Sweedish types, you know adversity only makes you stronger, so let's practice being miserable. I'll bet he sails in stuff that would make most of us huddle in the cabin in misery.


Exactly!


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## aeventyr60

ccriders said:


> I sense sone piling on here. But Mike knows that those who live in very benign climates become softies and after a few years of it only sail when it's 70 degrees and the wind is a steady 10 knots from some place other than on the nose. No, mike is one of those Garrison Keoller types, or Sweedish types, you know adversity only makes you stronger, so let's practice being miserable. I'll bet he sails in stuff that would make most of us huddle in the cabin in misery.
> Happy sails (when it thaws)
> John


I did that cold azz stuff for years and am now slumming it in the tropics, geez I need a sheet when it get below 75 F. I'm sure Mike has his sights set on warmer climes.


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## MikeOReilly

aeventyr60 said:


> I did that cold azz stuff for years and am now slumming it in the tropics, geez I need a sheet when it get below 75 F. I'm sure Mike has his sights set on warmer climes.


I know John is just having some fun -- all good . I guess I am heading to warmer waters ... eventually. But I'm planning to take my time. We plan to linger in Lake Ontario, then the St. Lawrence and NFLD/Maritimes as long as money and fun hold out.

To be honest, I'm actually a bit worried about heading south to warmer climes. At this point in my life I'm definitely climatized to what most people would call "cold" temperatures. I'm even concerned about spending a season in Lake Ontario. By my standards, it gets ridiculously hot down there. At least I can go swimming .

The other thing that concerns me about heading to warmer places is the fact that _everyone_ wants to go there. One of the things I truly appreciate about cruising is the ability to get away from everything and everyone. I hate busy anchorages, where it feels more like a parking lot than a wilderness space. I'm comforted by many of you who assure me there are still lots of quiet anchorages, but it is definitely one of my concerns.


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## aeventyr60

I'll leave the light on for you in plenty of deserted anchorages....Go West!


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## mbianka

MikeOReilly said:


> I know John is just having some fun -- all good . I guess I am heading to warmer waters ... eventually. But I'm planning to take my time. We plan to linger in Lake Ontario, then the St. Lawrence and NFLD/Maritimes as long as money and fun hold out.
> 
> To be honest, I'm actually a bit worried about heading south to warmer climes. At this point in my life I'm definitely climatized to what most people would call "cold" temperatures. I'm even concerned about spending a season in Lake Ontario. By my standards, it gets ridiculously hot down there. At least I can go swimming .
> 
> The other thing that concerns me about heading to warmer places is the fact that _everyone_ wants to go there. One of the things I truly appreciate about cruising is the ability to get away from everything and everyone. I hate busy anchorages, where it feels more like a parking lot than a wilderness space. I'm comforted by many of you who assure me there are still lots of quiet anchorages, but it is definitely one of my concerns.


Enjoy the lake Mike. I once took my boat up to Canada (via the Erie and Oswego Canals) and spent a little time in eastern Lake Ontario. Had a great time. 70 degree F water temperature and 70 foot visibility in the Thousand Islands felt almost tropical. As I recall only one or two boats in most anchorages and this was in July.


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## travlin-easy

Mike, believe me, you will quickly acclimate to the warmer climes and enjoy those wonderful, secluded anchorages. At the end of the canal where I'm staying on 4th street, Key Colony Beach, Marathon, Florida, there is a completely sheltered creek where not a single boat is anchored. The charts don't show the area has been completely dredged out and has lots of deepwater areas behind the sand bars. It is very quiet, completely sheltered, and surrounded by swaying palms. And, it's only 5 minutes to the ocean and wonderful sailing.

Looking forward to seeing you soon,

Gary


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## MikeOReilly

mbianka said:


> Enjoy the lake Mike. I once took my boat up to Canada (via the Erie and Oswego Canals) and spent a little time in eastern Lake Ontario. Had a great time. 70 degree F water temperature and 70 foot visibility in the Thousand Islands felt almost tropical. As I recall only one or two boats in most anchorages and this was in July.


Good to hear. We're planning to spend a season in Lake Ontario. Thousand-Islands/Bay of Quinte, and perhaps scooting over to Toronto for a while. No plans, just some relaxing time.



travlineasy said:


> Mike, believe me, you will quickly acclimate to the warmer climes and enjoy those wonderful, secluded anchorages. At the end of the canal where I'm staying on 4th street, Key Colony Beach, Marathon, Florida, there is a completely sheltered creek where not a single boat is anchored. The charts don't show the area has been completely dredged out and has lots of deepwater areas behind the sand bars. It is very quiet, completely sheltered, and surrounded by swaying palms. And, it's only 5 minutes to the ocean and wonderful sailing.


Thanks Gary. I'm sure you're right. It's really comforting to hear from folks like you who are out there. We'll definitely be staying off the beaten path (most of the time), so it's great to hear we can expect to find solitude and wilderness.

I look forward to meeting up with many of you, but we're still years away from making it to the Bahamas/Carrib. This year has already fallen off the tracks, which is why we're now planning to spend it in Lake Ontario, instead of heading to NFLD. That's the joys of this life; plans are always written in sand.


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## Michigander

barefootnavigator said:


> I've been reading through cruising budgets here and elsewhere and am shocked by how much money people are spending on their cruising budgets. I'm setting off again in a few months with a reasonably well stocked boat and hoping to live quite well on $1,200.00 for a the full six months I plan to cruise this year. When I started my voyage last year I was penniless with a half stocked boat and found finding work here and there to be quite easy although I am sailing in US waters as my dog refuses to go to sea.
> 
> My end goal once I'm free to head offshore is a $6,000.00 per year budget. I haven't suffered at all with my limited income and actually have gained weight since setting out. My 22' boat is small and simple but safe and easy to maintain to a very high standard.
> 
> I know there will be naysayers but what I'm really looking for is positive experiences of voyaging on a budget.
> 
> Art Of Hookie | Will work for food or money.


Well I just got done reading quite a bit of your blog, I saw you want a windvane and I think I was pointed in the direction of sometime that would interest you. I had started a thread about a reasonably priced Windvane steering system and someone posted this



wayne williams said:


> I just ordered a kit called the hebridean, made in Scotland. Looks to be a good solution to my situation. Not expensive but you have to complete with some added wood fabrication. just google hebridean self steering vanes.


Its a little on the steep side just for plans and hardware but I guess its like the deal of the century as far a windvanes go.. Idk I think it might be worth checking out

Links :
Self-steering Servo-Pendulum Wind Vane Kit & Plans for DIY Kit for Sailors | www.windvaneselfsteering.co.uk
Wind Vane Plans | www.windvaneselfsteering.co.uk

There are some videos of it working too that you should check out.

Very inspirational blog, I wish I had someone that was up to share the ultimate adventure like you do!

You might also be interested in this windvane, which it the way to go in my limited knowledge Mr. Vane | Mister Vee wind vane self steering

The only thing about this vane is I guess they only make them in batches once a year. If you preorder you get up to a nice 20% discount if im not mistaken, might have missed the boat of this years batch though. The Designer Sven Heesterman is a really nice guy. He may have an extra one he could hook you up with. If you were interested in going this route tell him Hunter B sent ya lol

Good luck on your awesome adventure!


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## dwedeking

1) just did a week long live aboard sailing lesson trip to La Paz, MX in Jan. Was very surprised at how few boats where on the water even just at the nearby islands. I'm thinking you won't be "overcrowded" once you expand that past the nearby islands. 

2) First couple months I lived in Hawai'i the humidity killed me. I would sweat every time I moved. After living there 5 years, I'm freezing in this northern baja winter. Anything below 70 degrees sucks. 

3) to keep on topic, I think Mexico is one of the best spots I've lived in with regards to a "$500" a month budget.


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## aeventyr60

dwedeking said:


> 1) just did a week long live aboard sailing lesson trip to La Paz, MX in Jan. Was very surprised at how few boats where on the water even just at the nearby islands. I'm thinking you won't be "overcrowded" once you expand that past the nearby islands.
> 
> 2) First couple months I lived in Hawai'i the humidity killed me. I would sweat every time I moved. After living there 5 years, I'm freezing in this northern baja winter. Anything below 70 degrees sucks.
> 
> 3) to keep on topic, I think Mexico is one of the best spots I've lived in with regards to a "$500" a month budget.


Wait until you get to SE Asia...uncrowded anchorages, cheap food, duty free ports for booze and diesel..unlimited time on you boat in malaysia, 90 day visa on arrival, next ports of call a day sail away, no charge for cruising permits, heck no cruising permits either, no entry fees.....since your blood is already thin the aclimatazion process will be a breeze...Go West!


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## jerryrlitton

aeventyr60 said:


> I'll leave the light on for you in plenty of deserted anchorages....Go West!


Waaaaayyyyy west.


----------



## aeventyr60

jerryrlitton said:


> Waaaaayyyyy west.


Big ol light shining for you Jerry, damn it' burning my eyes...or is it the epoxy fumes, or cleaning the diesel tank fumes, or sika, or acetone, thinners and varnish, tonic and lime too:laugher


----------



## MikeOReilly

aeventyr60 said:


> Wait until you get to SE Asia...uncrowded anchorages, cheap food, duty free ports for booze and diesel..unlimited time on you boat in malaysia, 90 day visa on arrival, next ports of call a day sail away, no charge for cruising permits, heck no cruising permits either, no entry fees.....since your blood is already thin the aclimatazion process will be a breeze...Go West!


Sounds like the place to be. Keep a place for us. At the speed we're going we should be there in 10 years .


----------



## aeventyr60

MikeOReilly said:


> Sounds like the place to be. Keep a place for us. At the speed we're going we should be there in 10 years .


It only took me 9 years to get here, damn all those islands we kept running into...a ten year pace is spot on.....however, it's really only a year and a half if you get a wiggle on....


----------



## Capt Len

Bare foot , Brent Swain has plans for a wind vane, Never built one myself but seen them and seem to be the ctsass..


----------



## aeventyr60

Ahoy my unwashed and semi-washed brothers under sail. So what do we do for fun and to save a few quid? Drive our boats onto the beach for a little Spring cleaning. A few pictures on deserted 'Monkey beach" for a little anti fouling fun.


----------



## MikeOReilly

aeventyr60 said:


> Ahoy my unwashed and semi-washed brothers under sail. So what do we do for fun and to save a few quid? Drive our boats onto the beach for a little Spring cleaning. A few pictures on deserted 'Monkey beach" for a little anti fouling fun.


That's great. I assume it all went well?

Care to step through the process for those of us who've never tried it? What did you go through to pick the beach? I see you have a stern anchor set. Did you tie a line forward as well? Any issues with it settling/re-floating, and getting back off? No problem with the rudder placement (I'd think it would have been better to be angled out of the sand?).

Question, question. But love it. Thanks.


----------



## MedSailor

aeventyr60 said:


> Ahoy my unwashed and semi-washed brothers under sail. So what do we do for fun and to save a few quid? Drive our boats onto the beach for a little Spring cleaning. A few pictures on deserted 'Monkey beach" for a little anti fouling fun.











Trying to pretend it was on purpose are you? 

MedSailor


----------



## Don L

what a bummer it would be to find out that one can not float off that beach later, would kind of eat into the savings of not hauling out to start with


----------



## Capt Len

Another use for carrying a few tires on board. North Star (57') would lie on the steep shingle beach at Chatham Island off Victoria. Turn about on the next tide.


----------



## Don L

of course it's a pretty big boat with extra space to carry tires


----------



## newhaul

Don0190 said:


> what a bummer it would be to find out that one can not float off that beach later, would kind of eat into the savings of not hauling out to start with


People do it all the time here in the pnw big tidal range is the key and the stern anchor serves two purposes on my boat to keep me oriented the way I want to end up and as a kedge if needed


----------



## MikeOReilly

newhaul said:


> People do it all the time here in the pnw big total range is the key and the stern anchor serves two purposes on my boat to keep me oriented the way I want to end up and as a kedge if needed


Does wave action matter? I'm thinking that as the boat is laying down, or rising, that there could be a sanding of the hull if the water is also sloshing around ... or is this not an issue (remember, I don't have much experience with tide, being a Great Lakes sailor so far).


----------



## Capt Len

Since I was living aboard and a good chance of it raining anyway, I prefered to stay upright.Nearly every harbour on the coast has a gov't dock.(often with a free grid) I usually dug in some deadmen to secure a couple of logs beside the beach end pilings. That way I could get both sides and under the keel in one tide..In Port Browning the bay was full of vessels waiting their turn to dry out after I had finished.


----------



## newhaul

MikeOReilly said:


> Does wave action matter? I'm thinking that as the boat is laying down, or rising, that there could be a sanding of the hull if the water is also sloshing around ... or is this not an issue (remember, I don't have much experience with tide, being a Great Lakes sailor so far).


Mike not an issue picking an area with minimal wave action and choose a fairly calm and sunny day


----------



## Omatako

You can only do one side at a time and you'd have to stow the boat pretty well.


----------



## mitiempo

Capt Len said:


> ...I preferred to stay upright.Nearly every harbour on the coast has a gov't dock.(often with a free grid)


Like this:


----------



## newhaul

Omatako said:


> You can only do one side at a time and you'd have to stow the boat pretty well.


Shouldn't everything be stowed already I heal almost the same weather on the beach cleaning my hull or sailing a heavy beam reach


----------



## aeventyr60

MikeOReilly said:


> That's great. I assume it all went well?
> 
> Care to step through the process for those of us who've never tried it? What did you go through to pick the beach? I see you have a stern anchor set. Did you tie a line forward as well? Any issues with it settling/re-floating, and getting back off? No problem with the rudder placement (I'd think it would have been better to be angled out of the sand?).
> 
> Question, question. But love it. Thanks.


Yes, everything went well, and much less stressful then my last two haul outs.
I picked the three days of the month with the biggest tidal difference, and used the two days before, just in case the tides were not as predicted. Tidal difference was 2.8 meters. I rest on the bottom at 1.6 meters. I surveyed the area the day before looking for any obstructions. I set a six foot stick in the sand to get an idea of where the deep spots would be. I spoke to an old timer who was anchored nearby. He had placed lines ashore tied to the mangroves to help get the boat to lay over. He reassured me that all would be fine. He is a two time circumnavigator so I had a lot of confidence after our talk.

I pretty much picked the spot between the two lines and headed for the beach. I had flaked out 120 feet of rode for the aft anchor, a 27 pound HT danforth. When I got into six feet of water I let the anchor go, and proceeded to ground the boat. The first try I did not like the angle, so backed off and repositioned the boat to take advantage of the ebb flowing tide. Once aground, I took out a kedge anchor, amidships on another 100 feet of line. For good measure I dropped the bow anchor and walked it up the beach a few meters. I also took another line and tied into the fixed lines in the mangroves. A busy half hour or so of setting anchor and getting everything snugged up tight. The tide did it's thing and slowly the tide receded leaving me high and dry as planned. I did lean on the kedge anchor rode a bit the ensure the lean. I also placed 100 liters of water on the low side to get the lean going.

As the water receded, I scrubbed the water line down three feet, let it dry and then put the first coat of anti foul. That part finished and the water receding a bit faster I cleaned the remaining bottom half of the hull. The repainted the top three feet and finished up the bottom part of the keel. Also changed the anode and polished the prop. A quick bite to eat and a nanna nap in the cockpit saw out the last two hours. I floated free 2 hours before the high tide. As the tide rose I winched out the boat on my starboard primary winch.

There was a little wave action early from distant ferry wash, but nothing to be too concerned about. As the tide receded there was, of course no wave action.

On the second day, I came in at the two hour after high tide mark, this avoided being bumped around for an hour or so. I again floated free two hours before high tide.

A good two days of work. Not as difficult as it sounds. Another part of the practiced art of seamanship.


----------



## aeventyr60

Don0190 said:


> what a bummer it would be to find out that one can not float off that beach later, would kind of eat into the savings of not hauling out to start with


It's why tide programs exist. The entire effort was not about the money. 
I had previously careened up in the Sea of Cortez and wanted to try it out again. Just another way of doing things.
In 2010 I hauled out on a marine railway in the South China Sea, The yard had only hauled out 5 yachts before and were offering a special deal, 200 bucks, wow I thought...well I was canted at a downward angle on the trolley and a 15 degree list to starboard for three days. Not fun. I thought careening was a much smoother, and safer way to go.

If your back was hurting before this kind of effort, I doubt you'd be able to walk after:laugher


----------



## MikeOReilly

aeventyr60 said:


> Yes, everything went well, and much less stressful then my last two haul outs....A good two days of work. Not as difficult as it sounds. Another part of the practiced art of seamanship.


Wish we had tides on the Great Lakes . Thanks for the pics and the description. Some day (soonish) I'll be able to give it a try.


----------



## Minnesail

MikeOReilly said:


> Wish we had tides on the Great Lakes .


I was doing some reading over the weekend and I came across a claim that Lake Superior had a measurable tide of about 2". How would you even measure that?

I looked a little more and NOAA backs up the claim:
Do the Great Lakes have tides?

Doesn't really affect anything of course, I just thought it was interesting. Maybe it would help Tom Thumb careen his boat.


----------



## krisscross

MikeOReilly said:


> Wish we had tides on the Great Lakes


A fun trip on St Lawrence River to Quebec City and you will have nice tides.


----------



## MikeOReilly

krisscross said:


> A fun trip on St Lawrence River to Quebec City and you will have nice tides.


Yes, we're headed down that way. Unfortunately due to land-life complications we're delaying our Great Lakes departure for one more year. This season is going to be spent toodling around Lake Ontario. The following year we're Newfoundland-bound .



Minnesail said:


> I was doing some reading over the weekend and I came across a claim that Lake Superior had a measurable tide of about 2". How would you even measure that?
> 
> I looked a little more and NOAA backs up the claim:
> Do the Great Lakes have tides?
> 
> Doesn't really affect anything of course, I just thought it was interesting. Maybe it would help Tom Thumb careen his boat.


It's true, we do have small tides on Superior, but I've never noticed the effect. However, we are significantly affected by seiches created by wind, and by differing atmospheric pressures across the bigger lakes like Superior and Huron. These can be a 1/2 meter in size, although more typically are in the small 5-10s of cm.


----------



## archimedes

No tides and no salt. Sounds like paradise. 

Oh, but there is that winter thing.


----------



## Whitebread117

archimedes said:


> No tides and no salt. Sounds like paradise.
> 
> Oh, but there is that winter thing.


Overstated. Its really only an issue 9 months out of the year


----------



## Omatako

newhaul said:


> Shouldn't everything be stowed already I heal almost the same whether on the beach cleaning my hull or sailing a heavy beam reach


Have you ever considered reefing?


----------



## Capt Len

Considering how a tidal haul out was free and XXX was $47 a gallon, and the brushes,roller and pan was free last year out of a dumpster and most of the labour was Aussies on walkabout ,it took some adjustment to a 1000 dollars lift and a $600 estimate to apply paint. Fortunatly , Sue could do the major work (in 2 hours)while I did zincs, boot top and anything else on the list. Every 4 years it was major pull prop, shaft,rudder and thruhulls.for CG. Considering 2 men for two days if they knew what they were doing ,I paid myself well working alone. If you have to pay someone ,you're on the wrong thread


----------



## Capt Len

Sorry, pressed wrong button


----------



## MikeOReilly

archimedes said:


> No tides and no salt. Sounds like paradise.
> 
> Oh, but there is that winter thing.





Whitebread117 said:


> Overstated. Its really only an issue 9 months out of the year


All kidding aside, the Great Lakes are pretty amazing. Lake Superior is truly an undiscovered country for cruiser who crave remote, pristine, completely uncrowded places to explore. It's an inland sea of immense beauty and power. Plus, it has no (real) tides, and no salt water.

You can't winter in the northern lakes, but some hardy souls do live on their boats year-round in Lake Ontario, and I would assume Lake Erie. There's a small chance we might try it this winter. More likely though, we'll jump on the motorcycles and head south.


----------



## newhaul

Omatako said:


> Have you ever considered reefing?


Nav where's the fun in that I don't reef in less than 20 knots wind but remember I'm 24 ft with a 3 ft draft full keel and 8 ft beam so I really don't lay over much definitely not more than 20° list


----------



## Minnesail

Whitebread117 said:


> Overstated. Its really only an issue 9 months out of the year


What are you talking about, 9 months out of the year? Winter is over. Shipping season on Lake Superior opened Monday when the John G. Munson crashed through the ice to get out of Duluth harbor.
Shipping Season Starts in the Duluth-Superior Harbor









And I saw on Facebook that after a couple false starts the Madeline Island ferry was able to break through. They said when it finally got going it took an hour and a half to break through two miles of ice to connect the island the mainland.

Winter is over, hoist your sails, get your swimsuit on!


----------



## MikeOReilly

Minnesail said:


> What are you talking about, 9 months out of the year? Winter is over. Shipping season on Lake Superior opened Monday when the John G. Munson crashed through the ice to get out of Duluth harbor.


Maybe way down south , but not up here on the north shore. Still ice as far as the eye can see in Thunder Bay. We had a small American ice breaker (Alder) in a few days ago, but it wasn't able to make much progress. I hear they're bringing in a big Canadian breaker from the Atlantic to see if they can open up Thunder Bay.

Last year it was the south shore that had icebergs till June. Looks like it will be our turn this year .


----------



## travlin-easy

Mike, get your butt out of that part of the world and rapidly sail to the land of palm trees and tropical waters. I wore a sweater the day the photo was taken because the temperature dipped to 60 degrees f.










Gary


----------



## MedSailor

travlineasy said:


> Mike, get your butt out of that part of the world and rapidly sail to the land of palm trees and tropical waters. I wore a sweater the day the photo was taken because the temperature dipped to 60 degrees f.
> 
> Gary


I eschew tropical locations. Too easy for the beer to get warm.

MedSailor


----------



## Whitebread117

I'm currently in Detroit- the southernmost edge of this particular "thawed" area. I assure you its still winter here- the sleet falling on my way to work this morning proves it.

If the lakes were located between Texas and Iowa they would be the boating center of the world. As it is, you can keep em


----------



## MikeOReilly

travlineasy said:


> Mike, get your butt out of that part of the world and rapidly sail to the land of palm trees and tropical waters. I wore a sweater the day the photo was taken because the temperature dipped to 60 degrees f.


You look cold Gary. Where's your touque? Here, let me send you one:


----------



## LaVarlope

It ain't that bad guys, this is how we wait for the sailing season here in Qc.


----------



## aeventyr60

MedSailor said:


> I eschew tropical locations. Too easy for the beer to get warm.
> 
> MedSailor


Ya just gotta drink a little faster there mate:laugher


----------



## aeventyr60

View attachment 45554
The deserted beach MikeR is looking for..lights still on!
Sorry, just some limestone formations in Maya Bay....beach to the far right..but missed that part.


----------



## MikeOReilly

aeventyr60 said:


> View attachment 45554
> The deserted beach MikeR is looking for..lights still on!
> Sorry, just some limestone formations in Maya Bay....beach to the far right..but missed that part.


I'm all excited now ... but I can't see the attachment


----------



## aeventyr60

Sorry fubar here on weak wifi signal....


----------



## MikeOReilly

We started talking about water usage over on another thread, and aeventyr60 mentioned the need for a good rain catcher system. I don't have one yet, but will. 

Those of you who catch rain; can you describe your setup?


----------



## travlin-easy

Mike, some cruisers I met in Florida had nothing more than a vee shaped dam around the fill port of their water tank. After a few minutes of raining to allow the deck to wash clean, they merely opened the fill cap and let the rainwater flow down the deck to the fill opening. It was that simple. Nothing complicated about building it, either. Just a couple pieces of right angle aluminum or plexiglass glued to the deck. Most were only about 1/2-inch high so they wouldn't constitute much of a trip hazard, and I imagine 1/4 inch would be sufficient for most.

Gary


----------



## MedSailor

MikeOReilly said:


> We started talking about water usage over on another thread, and aeventyr60 mentioned the need for a good rain catcher system. I don't have one yet, but will.
> 
> Those of you who catch rain; can you describe your setup?


http://www.newpig.com/pig/US/patch-repair-maintenance-7240/pig-leak-diverters-7241/pig-roof-leak-diverter-7242/0/20

You're welcome. 

MedSailor


----------



## JonEisberg

MikeOReilly said:


> We started talking about water usage over on another thread, and aeventyr60 mentioned the need for a good rain catcher system. I don't have one yet, but will.
> 
> Those of you who catch rain; can you describe your setup?


Yeah, that's one problem with a thread like this, I described mine for the first time about 1,500 posts ago... 

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1599105-post1290.html

Here's the pic of my 'watermaker' that accompanied it... Deck fills have been located at the low point on deck, I just snap these into place when the time is right...


----------



## Group9

When I first started cruising, I was tied up at the Panama City, Florida marina, and an obvious cruising couple, in a CSY 37, was tied up across from us. We had a rain shower, and I watched them come out and wash their clothes using runoff from the tarp they had strung over their boat. 

The funny thing was, we were at a marina.

I think they had been doing it for so long, they couldn't help themselves.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Thanks guys. Yeah, I realize we've probably gone over this turf. In fact, I remember seeing your photo Jon. It looks like a great solution, as do the PIGs (bookmarked!).

My deck presents a slight challenge to your approach Jon. My water deck fill is raised a couple of cm above the side deck. I'll have to have a larger dam so it can fill high enough. Hmmmm, should still be possible. 

I'm going to snap some pics tomorrow when I go back to the boat. Love to have your collective wisdom on what I can do.


----------



## mitiempo

MikeOReilly said:


> My deck presents a slight challenge to your approach Jon. My water deck fill is raised a couple of cm above the side deck. I'll have to have a larger dam so it can fill high enough. Hmmmm, should still be possible.


You could lower the deck fill to make it closer to flush with the deck.

Are those tarps foodsafe?


----------



## newhaul

Yes the pigs do look nice but there goes the budget for the month
:laugher


----------



## [email protected]

I think you are totally in tune. I have been out for six years now and i try to keep the budget as low as possible. I'm not sure where you are but I know the Caribbean can be very expensive until you get further south into Venezuela which may not be a place you want to go. I started in california and headed west through the South Pacific, goal...Southeast Asia. The South Pacific is very expensive but you won't spend money for about a month so that's encouraging. Not sure you would go that far in a 22' but know that people do. I've made it to Asia now and am very happy here. If nothing went wrong with the boat i could live on much less than $500 a month, $300 is my goal. But something usually comes up, a new transmission for $3600 really put a dent in the budget last year. New batteries are ruining my budget right now. Unfortunately i spent nine months away from the boat over the past year and realize its the worst thing i could have done not only for me but for the boat and now for the budget. Best of luck to you and the best advice i saw here was....people don't change. If you can live for cheap on land, you can live for cheaper on the water. Its all about your location so pick a beautiful, cheap, fun spit where you will be happy. Cause that's what we're out here doin' it for.....happiness and freedom.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Just thought I'd come back to my favourite SN home to say my spouse and I are now both "retired", which really means we now have no income :eek. 

We truly are $500/month cruisers now :2 boat:.


In another two weeks we should be land-homeless, and will move down to the boat for a summer of projects and living out of our tent. Hmmm, I guess all the critics are correct: I will be "camping" .


----------



## jerryrlitton

MikeOReilly said:


> Just thought I'd come back to my favourite SN home to say my spouse and I are now both "retired", which really means we now have no income :eek.
> 
> We truly are $500/month cruisers now :2 boat:.
> 
> In another two weeks we should be land-homeless, and will move down to the boat for a summer of projects and living out of our tent. Hmmm, I guess all the critics are correct: I will be "camping" .


Hello Mike, I will be joining you all in about two months. Eek is right lol. However I am also excited.


----------



## MikeOReilly

jerryrlitton said:


> Hello Mike, I will be joining you all in about two months. Eek is right lol. However I am also excited.


Congrats Jerry. It is both exciting and scary, as all adventures should be.

Actually, at this moment I feel like I'm living Zeno's Paradox, where every step I take only gets me 1/2 way to my goal. It never seems to end...

It's just so damn hard to get rid of all our stuff (and we don't have that much compared to most people). Ah well, this too will pass...


----------



## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> It's just so damn hard to get rid of all our stuff (and we don't have that much compared to most people). Ah well, this too will pass...


Donate it or give it away, if no will accept it on the first two choices toss it as it isn't worth anything really and you just think it is.


----------



## newhaul

MikeOReilly said:


> It's just so damn hard to get rid of all our stuff (and we don't have that much compared to most people). Ah well, this too will pass...


Have a yard sale and or dock sale what don't go donate to worthy cause and take the tax break.


----------



## robert sailor

MikeOReilly said:


> Congrats Jerry. It is both exciting and scary, as all adventures should be.
> 
> Actually, at this moment I feel like I'm living Zeno's Paradox, where every step I take only gets me 1/2 way to my goal. It never seems to end...
> 
> It's just so damn hard to get rid of all our stuff (and we don't have that much compared to most people). Ah well, this too will pass...


Don't get rid of your "stuff" Mike, store it like everyone else. A few hundred a month is all it would cost and when you get back, if you should it will have turned into several thousand dollars and still be worth next to nothing. We go through life dragging our stuff with us and its like a big anchor.
I'll share something with you, I see tranquility by the number of keys you have to use to live your life, the less keys the better life is. We have a key ring at home with at least 20 keys on it but cruising we have only 3 and 2 of those are padlocks, life is good.
Good to hear you are at the first stage of breaking free, remember, the only difference between "a rut" and a "grave" is the depth! Cheers, R


----------



## MikeOReilly

Thanks guys. We are selling/donating and abandoning most of our stuff. But it's hard ... not hard to let go of stuff, just physically hard to get rid of things. We've been giving and selling higher-value stuff for the last year. We held a yard sale two weeks ago and got rid of another 25%, and I'm now donating the rest to various charities. But I still have to organize, box and arrange for pickups. 

... I'm just whining ... but it's hard!

BTW, we bought a storage trailer a couple of years ago (when we still had money ) where we will store those few precious items, and some the minimal practical stuff in case we need to come back to shore and set up a home. This latter stuff is really more of a safety blanket for my partner, but it might be useful if we suddenly do have to come back. 

The storage trailer is being parked on a friend's farm -- FOR FREE -- so there is no ongoing cost to us. I'm pretty sure you guys are correct; by the time we get back to this pile of treasures, we'll wonder why we kept anything. But it is necessary for my spouse, so it is necessary for me


----------



## newhaul

MikeOReilly said:


> The storage trailer is being parked on a friend's farm -- FOR FREE -- so there is no ongoing cost to us. I'm pretty sure you guys are correct; by the time we get back to this pile of treasures, we'll wonder why we kept anything. But it is necessary for my spouse, so it is necessary for me


Mike got four words to explain it all. Happy wife happy life :sailing-pilgrims:


----------



## BMLipiec

Mike,
Congrats! I know how you feel. The months leading up to your departure are the scariest and the busiest. More than once, a little doubt crept in, even after planning and dreaming for years. However, once you finally go you will love it.

Take care,
B


----------



## Bene505

Mike,

So far from setting out that I can't imagine what you must be going through. A little envious here, but the kids need another 8 years in a great school system.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## travlin-easy

Mike, I can assure you that the vast majority of the stuff you leave behind is probably not worth having in the first place. I am constantly amazed at all the things my wife still purchases that we really do not need in the first place.

Now, having living aboard the boat for six months there was a lot of things I really never missed.

All the best

Gary


----------



## aeventyr60

* "In another two weeks we should be land-homeless, and will move down to the boat for a summer of projects and living out of our tent. Hmmm, I guess all the critics are correct: I will be "camping" " *

Mike,

Curious about that tent. Is it a production tent? Full keel? Blue water tent? Will you need to out fit it with a trash compactor, dish washer and washing machine? How will you anchor it to terra firma? Damn, the trials and tribulations you are about to encounter......


----------



## jerryrlitton

aeventyr60 said:


> * "In another two weeks we should be land-homeless, and will move down to the boat for a summer of projects and living out of our tent. Hmmm, I guess all the critics are correct: I will be "camping" " *
> 
> Mike,
> 
> Curious about that tent. Is it a production tent? Full keel? Blue water tent? Will you need to out fit it with a trash compactor, dish washer and washing machine? How will you anchor it to terra firma? Damn, the trials and tribulations you are about to encounter......


Hopefully not a Benehuntalina tent from Walmart.


----------



## mbianka

MikeOReilly said:


> Congrats Jerry. It is both exciting and scary, as all adventures should be.
> 
> Actually, at this moment I feel like I'm living Zeno's Paradox, where every step I take only gets me 1/2 way to my goal. It never seems to end...
> 
> It's just so damn hard to get rid of all our stuff (and we don't have that much compared to most people). Ah well, this too will pass...


I'm still envious. Spent the whole past winter and got rid of very little stuff. I need to seriously work on that on land and on the boat. My latest accomplishment:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: MORE STUFF THAT'S NOT NEEDED
Sometimes it's the little things.  Though I did remove some storage containers from on board that were not storing anything just taking up space. Sounds like you are making a great transition!


----------



## MikeOReilly

Bene505 said:


> So far from setting out that I can't imagine what you must be going through. A little envious here, but the kids need another 8 years in a great school system.


Thanks Brad. As someone who chose to remain childless I have great respect and admiration for those of you who choose this harder path. Having children, and being a good a parent (not all are), is the most important thing anyone can choose to do. Cherish the time with them, but keep the cruising plan alive. It took us 10 years to get to this point. Eight years will disappear fast.



travlineasy said:


> Mike, I can assure you that the vast majority of the stuff you leave behind is probably not worth having in the first place. I am constantly amazed at all the things my wife still purchases that we really do not need in the first place.


Thanks Gary. I'm with you, but it is necessary for my partner, so it's necessary for me . I bet we're going to come back to this trailer in a few years and wonder what the heck we were thinking in keeping anything. But it is necessary right now. At least it's not costing us anything going forward.

This whole 'letting go of stuff' is an interesting process. I've never been one to cling to a lot of things (perhaps b/c I've never been wealthy enough to have a lot of stuff), but I've become almost buddhist about having things. I used to get quite attached to some stuff, but in the last 10 years I've become more and more detached. It's not that I don't value things, but mostly they have to be utilitarian or consumables (beer and whisky for example ).


----------



## MikeOReilly

aeventyr60 said:


> Curious about that tent. Is it a production tent? Full keel? Blue water tent? Will you need to out fit it with a trash compactor, dish washer and washing machine? How will you anchor it to terra firma? Damn, the trials and tribulations you are about to encounter......


You're a trouble-maker :devil.

Here's our new home for the next nine months 










We bought this new tent b/c of its small pack size. We're going to be living out of two small motorcycles until we can launch next Spring. So we'll be land-cruising throughout the coming cold months. Our only plan is to go where it's warm (and cheap).

I haven't done any long-term camping for over 10 years (since the cruising thing took over our lives). I imagine for first couple of weeks is going to be 'interesting'. But it's going to make our boat seem down right luxurious
:Luxury:


----------



## MikeOReilly

mbianka said:


> I'm still envious. Spent the whole past winter and got rid of very little stuff. I need to seriously work on that on land and on the boat. My latest accomplishment:
> THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: MORE STUFF THAT'S NOT NEEDED
> Sometimes it's the little things.  Though I did remove some storage containers from on board that were not storing anything just taking up space. Sounds like you are making a great transition!


Our moves in the past have always been different b/c we were moving into a comparable house. We'd always purged a lot, but mostly it would get piled into the U-Haul, and reassembled at the new place. We don't have that option with the boat so most things have to go.

I've actually been unpleasantly surprised at how difficult this process is. For me, the emotional side of letting go has been easy. It's just the simple physical nature of getting rid of things. We've been selling stuff to friends and neighbours, then giving stuff away. I then turned to selling stuff through classifieds (Kijiji), and that has been hit and miss. The yard sale emptied about 25% of our junk, but it's amazing (to me) how such a small house can contain so much junk.

Donating is fine, but given our volume I needed to find charities willing to pick stuff up. I first called the Salvation Army (Thrift Stores), and they gave me the cold shoulder. They made it clear I was more of an inconvenience to them, even though I wanted to donate a whole house's worth of household stuff. I eventually found the Diabetes Society and they've been great.

Anyway, gotta go. Someone just called about some utility shelves I've got for sale. Gotta go empty them.


----------



## robert sailor

MikeOReilly said:


> You're a trouble-maker :devil.
> 
> Here's our new home for the next nine months
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We bought this new tent b/c of its small pack size. We're going to be living out of two small motorcycles until we can launch next Spring. So we'll be land-cruising throughout the coming cold months. Our only plan is to go where it's warm (and cheap).
> 
> I haven't done any long-term camping for over 10 years (since the cruising thing took over our lives). I imagine for first couple of weeks is going to be 'interesting'. But it's going to make our boat seem down right luxurious
> :Luxury:


Mike..You have the world by the ass and you don't even know it! What a great plan you have going and how lucky you are to have a wife that is still your buddy.
I'm no spring chicken but my wife and I motorbiked/camped all over B.C. and the western USA a few years ago doing what you are planning BUT it was only for weeks at a time not a year. Now a year gives you all sorts of great options and I would be very interested in what your rough plans are. What bikes are you two riding? I have to say that short of the sailing life running around on motorcycles is damn near as much fun.


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## jerryrlitton

Mike when you are able feel free to cruise this way if you are looking for a cheap warm area. Aeventyr60 and I will show you around.


----------



## MikeOReilly

robert sailor said:


> Mike..You have the world by the ass and you don't even know it! What a great plan you have going and how lucky you are to have a wife that is still your buddy.
> I'm no spring chicken but my wife and I motorbiked/camped all over B.C. and the western USA a few years ago doing what you are planning BUT it was only for weeks at a time not a year. Now a year gives you all sorts of great options and I would be very interested in what your rough plans are. What bikes are you two riding? I have to say that short of the sailing life running around on motorcycles is damn near as much fun.


I agree Robert. My wife is as crazy as I am. We've been on this journey together as equal partners. I am incredibly lucky :grin.

We used to camp for weeks at a time (real camping ... canoe tripping) and I've done a few days here and there out of the motorcycle, but this is going to be a whole new level of living. We might come back and say "Never Again!", but what the heck. We're still young enough to manage ... I think :wink.

Our very rough plans are to spend most of July and August working on the boat in southern Ontario, then to drive to Alberta and spend September staying with family. After that we'll meander our way south, probably along the west coast, to Arizona where we have friends. If we're not sick of the life we may then ride down to Mexico where we have more friends to stay with. Launch in 2016 will be late April so hopefully the snow will be gone by the time we wonder our way back up north to Canada.

It's funny b/c motorcycling became part of our lives more recently than sailing. I bought my first little bike just so I could drive between the boat and our house. It was a 250cc, so just barely highway-capable, but it could carry a load, and was enough to get me hooked. I've since upgraded to a huge 400cc Yamaha Majesty . It's an auto-transmission (CVT) so no gearing. It's step-through design (maxi-scooter) means it has lots of under-seat and top-case storage. The ride is very comfortable over long distances, and it gets over 70 mpg.

2009 Yamaha Majesty

My wife has since bought a Piaggio 500cc maxi-scooter b/c she saw how much fun I was having. Now we each have our own little fuel-efficient bikes to run around on.

2009 Piaggio BV Tourer 500



jerryrlitton said:


> Mike when you are able feel free to cruise this way if you are looking for a cheap warm area. Aeventyr60 and I will show you around.


If we make it over your way (and there's a good chance we will), we'll definitely take you up on the offer Jerry. From all I read, the living is cheap, and the cruising is wonderful down your way. Save a spot for us. We'll make it ... eventually.


----------



## robert sailor

MikeOReilly said:


> I agree Robert. My wife is as crazy as I am. We've been on this journey together as equal partners. I am incredibly lucky :grin.
> 
> We used to camp for weeks at a time (real camping ... canoe tripping) and I've done a few days here and there out of the motorcycle, but this is going to be a whole new level of living. We might come back and say "Never Again!", but what the heck. We're still young enough to manage ... I think :wink.
> 
> Our very rough plans are to spend most of July and August working on the boat in southern Ontario, then to drive to Alberta and spend September staying with family. After that we'll meander our way south, probably along the west coast, to Arizona where we have friends. If we're not sick of the life we may then ride down to Mexico where we have more friends to stay with. Launch in 2016 will be late April so hopefully the snow will be gone by the time we wonder our way back up north to Canada.
> 
> It's funny b/c motorcycling became part of our lives more recently than sailing. I bought my first little bike just so I could drive between the boat and our house. It was a 250cc, so just barely highway-capable, but it could carry a load, and was enough to get me hooked. I've since upgraded to a huge 400cc Yamaha Majesty . It's an auto-transmission (CVT) so no gearing. It's step-through design (maxi-scooter) means it has lots of under-seat and top-case storage. The ride is very comfortable over long distances, and it gets over 70 mpg.
> 
> 2009 Yamaha Majesty
> 
> My wife has since bought a Piaggio 500cc maxi-scooter b/c she saw how much fun I was having. Now we each have our own little fuel-efficient bikes to run around on.
> 
> 2009 Piaggio BV Tourer 500
> 
> If we make it over your way (and there's a good chance we will), we'll definitely take you up on the offer Jerry. From all I read, the living is cheap, and the cruising is wonderful down your way. Save a spot for us. We'll make it ... eventually.


Looked at your Scoot's and they are both very cool! Your plan sounds like a good one plus you are going to be riding the west during a very dry year so it isn't going to get any better. When we were in the Med we rented scooters alot and even though I rode a 1200cc motorcycle and the wife rode a 650cc back home I think we had more fun on the scooters. You can find all sorts of places to camp, sometimes we camped in well organized camp grounds and other times we just found a spot in the woods. Stop at the local gas station and wash up and hit the road, LOL. I think if I was going to go into Mexico and camping was my first choice I might choose the Baja. Remember when you start this Gypsy lifestyle, anything over 2-3 years makes you almost unemployable...life is good when you get off the treadmill!


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## Waterrat

Sounds great Mike

In the USA there is free camping on federal land and most state land if not posted otherwise. That includes national forests, Bureau of Land Management and many Wilderness areas. The small catch is that you must move your camp something like 100 feet every two weeks. Hardly and issue while traveling. If on your way south you can drive through southern Utah you will not be disappointed. The scenery is unworldly. Cheers. Justin


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## travlin-easy

I met a couple in the Florida Keys, Jim and Lynn, who lived aboard an old 32 foot sloop. They were both relatively young, in their mid 40s, Jim was an engineer and Lynn was a school teacher before they began cruising. They were from somewhere up north, both hated cold weather, sold their home, and nearly all the contents. I asked Lynn what the hardest thing about living aboard for her was. She said "trying to put all my clothes and shoes in a couple boxes and saying goodbye to all the other stuff." She then said "I was absolutely amazed at the numbers of women's undergarmets that can be stored in a single shoebox." 

I would love to meet up with them again - wonderful people.

Gary


----------



## MikeOReilly

robert sailor said:


> I think if I was going to go into Mexico and camping was my first choice I might choose the Baja. Remember when you start this Gypsy lifestyle, anything over 2-3 years makes you almost unemployable...life is good when you get off the treadmill!


The Baja looks appealing indeed. Maybe we'll become beach bums for a couple of months, scoping out possible future cruising grounds. Employment? I haven't had a "job" for 25 years. I've been self-employed for virtually all my so-called career. I can't imagine working for someone else ... ever. Guess that makes me unemployable (and poor ).



Waterrat said:


> In the USA there is free camping on federal land and most state land if not posted otherwise. That includes national forests, Bureau of Land Management and many Wilderness areas.


Thanks Justin, we'll definitely be looking for the free places to pitch our tent. Good to hear there are lots of options.



travlineasy said:


> I met a couple in the Florida Keys, Jim and Lynn, who lived aboard an old 32 foot sloop. They were both relatively young, in their mid 40s, Jim was an engineer and Lynn was a school teacher before they began cruising. They were from somewhere up north, both hated cold weather, sold their home, and nearly all the contents. I asked Lynn what the hardest thing about living aboard for her was. She said "trying to put all my clothes and shoes in a couple boxes and saying goodbye to all the other stuff." She then said "I was absolutely amazed at the numbers of women's undergarmets that can be stored in a single shoebox."


Thankfully, my partner is not a girly-girl who has lots of clothes or shoes. Paring down is still a process though.


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## Capt Len

Tenting not so bad. Spent 20 winters (2,,,3 months) on the beach of little islands in south Thailand. Nearby bungalow operations make it pleasant. The camping was free and safe and restaurants so good and inexpensive. Built a 17 ft sailboat just to daysail and cut back on the Chang. Only changed the life style because I came to need all night power for the bipap. Fortunately ,my favourite island got a power line 2 years ago and friends built a classic beach bungalow for us so we traded off the tent .I've camped Europe.North Africa. Mexico Asia, ect, and ,never found a better all around place to hang it all out. Not a bad place for cruising too.


----------



## aeventyr60

MikeOReilly said:


> You're a trouble-maker :devil.
> 
> Here's our new home for the next nine months
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We bought this new tent b/c of its small pack size. We're going to be living out of two small motorcycles until we can launch next Spring. So we'll be land-cruising throughout the coming cold months. Our only plan is to go where it's warm (and cheap).
> 
> I haven't done any long-term camping for over 10 years (since the cruising thing took over our lives). I imagine for first couple of weeks is going to be 'interesting'. But it's going to make our boat seem down right luxurious
> :Luxury:


Looks good Mike. Keep that tent around for use when you go cruising. We have a nice Kelty tent that we have used when land voyaging. Just booked a flight back to Nepal for my fifth trip of wandering about the Himalaya. Will be living in a tent for 60 days or so. Yes, it does make the boat luxurious.


----------



## Omatako

MikeOReilly said:


> Just thought I'd come back to my favourite SN home to say my spouse and I are now both "retired", which really means we now have no income :eek.


We're getting our home ready to sell - hope to have it gone by November. I have resigned from my job, finish end December, wife has resigned from her job, finishing end September. If the house sells earlier, we'll move onto the boat and end of the year we move up north. Then four months to prep the boat and we're off to South Pacific (Fiji) in May. Our plan is May to November in the tropics and December to April back in New Zealand - we reckon we could do that for the next 10 years :wink So we're planning the disposal of much (but not all) of our worldly stuff and what doesn't sell goes to charity, what they don't want goes to landfill.

So all the nervousness you have, we share with you. It's quite daunting after having the stability of two salaries for 48 years to suddenly, willingly, cut it off. But I cheat - we have a small pension and a mortgage-free place to live that will hopefully continue until we die.:laugh


----------



## MikeOReilly

Omatako said:


> ...So all the nervousness you have, we share with you. It's quite daunting after having the stability of two salaries for 48 years to suddenly, willingly, cut it off. But I cheat - we have a small pension and a mortgage-free place to live that will hopefully continue until we die.:laugh


Congrats Omatako. It's great to have the plan coming together, but the it is a bit scary. The money thing IS the only part that we haven't worked out. We're leaving well before our megre pensions kick in (mine particularly so), so we're living on our savings till then. If we're frugal, if I can continue to generate some income, and we're not too unlucky, we should make it. But it's not a certainty.

Heck, if it was all certain, it wouldn't be an adventure :grin.


----------



## mbianka

MikeOReilly said:


> I've actually been unpleasantly surprised at how difficult this process is. For me, the emotional side of letting go has been easy. It's just the simple physical nature of getting rid of things. We've been selling stuff to friends and neighbours, then giving stuff away. I then turned to selling stuff through classifieds (Kijiji), and that has been hit and miss. The yard sale emptied about 25% of our junk, but it's amazing (to me) how such a small house can contain so much junk.
> 
> Donating is fine, but given our volume I needed to find charities willing to pick stuff up. I first called the Salvation Army (Thrift Stores), and they gave me the cold shoulder. They made it clear I was more of an inconvenience to them, even though I wanted to donate a whole house's worth of household stuff. I eventually found the Diabetes Society and they've been great.


Yeah, I found that too. I had Cross Country Ski machine that I paid several hundred dollars for. But, so far none of the thrift places I contacted are willing to take it. I also have a collection of Society of Motion Pictures and Television Engineer magazines. I thought maybe one of the engineering libraries at nearby colleges might want them. They contain research papers about the beginnings of the development of high definition television. But, libraries don't seem to have archive stacks anymore or want anything on paper. I have not even started to think about what to do about the record collection or reel to reel tapes.


----------



## MedSailor

mbianka said:


> Yeah, I found that too. I had Cross Country Ski machine that I paid several hundred dollars for. But, so far none of the thrift places I contacted are willing to take it. I also have a collection of Society of Motion Pictures and Television Engineer magazines. I thought maybe one of the engineering libraries at nearby colleges might want them. They contain research papers about the beginnings of the development of high definition television. But, libraries don't seem to have archive stacks anymore or want anything on paper. I have not even started to think about what to do about the record collection or reel to reel tapes.


EBAY! Craigslist! Someone'll want that stuff.


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## MikeOReilly

Sold a couple more big items today. The official count-down begins; Two Weeks To Go!


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## MikeOReilly

So, we've been land homeless for the past month now. Feels great so far. Unfortunately our cruising plans got derailed this year due to the death of my mother-in-law. A good death, but one that took us away from the boat at critical launch time. But plans have carried on. We've been working on the boat, doing some repairs, needed upgrades, and varnishing/oiling. And ironically, we are "camping" for now. 

I often chafe at the charge from the $5000/month club that us frugal cruisers are "camping" on our boats. I usually respond with vigour and protestation, so I have to laugh at the irony -- I AM CAMPING! 

We plan to finish work here on the boat in a couple of weeks, then pack up the tent and live out of our motorcycles for the next eight months. Our plans are simple: go where it's warm. This likely means a tour down the west coast, over to Arizona, and perhaps down into Mexico. And we'll be CAMPING all the way. Oh, the ironies :laugh


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## hpeer

Mike, in that case we may be running into you in the spring.

I just set my OFFICIAL retire date as January 15 ( gulp!).

Contractor is in redoing the kitchen, the bathroom is next. Then the place is ready to rent out. That's a big part of our budget, and SS. 

So the plan is, kinda sorta, we are taking the big boat on a 3 week cruise this fall (Annual SSCA GAM in Annapolis, before the boat show) so my Wife decides which boat to go on. I'm betting hard money its the big one, but you never know.

Anyway, then as soon as possible after I retire we leave and head South in Safara.

But......then around the end of May, we come back, get the small boat (Chouette) and head up the Erie, down the St Lauwrence and on to the Rock. Then go back to the big boat and warmer climes for winter.

It's a plan. Know how to make God laugh? 

May see you yet.

PS

finally figured out that nig hunk of spare canvas, it's a fore deck tent.


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## Omatako

Hey Mike,

We're sort of following close behind.

My wife has resigned from her job and finishes end October, I have resigned my job, I finish mid-December.

We are putting our home on the market in three weeks and if it sells quickly we'll put our boat into the local ferry-terminal bay so that we can still commute from the island to the city until we terminate our employment.

Then it's up north to the Bay of Islands to spend January to April getting the boat ready for a May departure for Fiji.

It gets real when you see your jobs advertised in the local press - no turning back from that now!!


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## MikeOReilly

hpeer said:


> Mike, in that case we may be running into you in the spring.
> 
> I just set my OFFICIAL retire date as January 15 ( gulp!).


That's great. Congrats Hpeer. I don't have to tell you the next six months are going to disappear fast. Would be terrific if we could meet up somewhere along the St. Lawrence or NFLD way. You could show us the ropes.



Omatako said:


> Hey Mike,
> 
> We're sort of following close behind.
> 
> My wife has resigned from her job and finishes end October, I have resigned my job, I finish mid-December.
> ...
> It gets real when you see your jobs advertised in the local press - no turning back from that now!!


Great stuff Omatako. It gets real, really fast. After a month of being land homeless we're both loving the life. Hope to see you out there.


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## vega1860

And once its done you will, like me, wonder why you did not do it years earlier.


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## jerryrlitton

Two weeks for me. Nervousexcited together.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Seems like there's a bunch of us who have either just cast off, or are very close to doing so. Great stuff!

:sailing-pilgrims:


----------



## RTB

I hope to meet up with some of you new cruisers in the future. We're heading back east from Texas in October. This will be our second time, after cruising for 2 1/2 years and 5000 miles. A couple of trips to the Bahamas and up the east coast to Georgia. We came back to Texas for a break, and do some boat work. We arrived back in the Lone Star State last June (2014). Once we got back, we discovered we didn't have enough money for a slip, so sat at anchor for 2 weeks waiting for the retirement check to hit on the first. Pretty dang boring if truth be told. 

Happily, I started getting a SS check, and the pressure is off. Please remember to take care of your boat. We saved enough to buy paint, get hauled out, did the bottom our self, and paid the yard fee for 13 days. Splashed, and moved to a cheap marina. Now, after 2 1/2 years, the house bank is pretty much shot, so time for new batteries. I'm adding another solar panel to the bimini frame, and need to add some stainless bracing. Just ordered $301.00 of stuff from Sailrite to accomplish this.

So, obviously, We're not cruising on a true $500.00/month, but get by pretty cheap most months. Do your best. It isn't easy sometimes, but sure beats the heck out of a mortgage payment, property taxes, car payments, high utility bills.....blah, blah, blah! Good luck to you new guys. See ya out there soon.

Ralph


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## christian.hess

good to see you guys are doing it! so cool...much love and best wishes and most importantly "peace" while out there...

enjoy

christian


----------



## Sal Paradise

MikeOReilly said:


> Seems like there's a bunch of us who have either just cast off, or are very close to doing so. Great stuff!
> 
> :sailing-pilgrims:


Mike I'm an avid motorcyclist so I appreciate the allure of the road but just curious why don't you move your boat south? Still plenty of time to get her to the ICW before ice locks you in. Motorcycles are easy to move anytime.


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## christian.hess

well its been a lontime since I have done some cruising(and posting on this thread)...but the time has come to plan a "sabbatical" from work, since I cant sell my boat for pennies...in paradise I have decided to keep my islander...

plan is to sail her to panama leave here there at balboa or similar, then take her across the canal early next year on another sabbatical...

plan is to install windvane, buy a used genoa from bacon or similar...take stuff down to boat and slap on an outboard and GO...its the cheapest fastest way to get to panama...6-7 days straight...10 if we stop...


anywhoo...

thought Id post my plans here since its the only thread worthy of such FUN and games! jajaja

well wishes and luck to all who embark on their cruises...

PEACE

ps. reason for this decision is im tired of not doing anything with the boat and or getting people to buy into the dream of cruising...for petes sake I cant get 1 bite on latitude 38, craigslist and other places with my boat...were sailors...SAIL!


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## jerryrlitton

RTB said:


> I hope to meet up with some of you new cruisers in the future. We're heading back east from Texas in October. This will be our second time, after cruising for 2 1/2 years and 5000 miles. A couple of trips to the Bahamas and up the east coast to Georgia. We came back to Texas for a break, and do some boat work. We arrived back in the Lone Star State last June (2014). Once we got back, we discovered we didn't have enough money for a slip, so sat at anchor for 2 weeks waiting for the retirement check to hit on the first. Pretty dang boring if truth be told.
> 
> Happily, I started getting a SS check, and the pressure is off. Please remember to take care of your boat. We saved enough to buy paint, get hauled out, did the bottom our self, and paid the yard fee for 13 days. Splashed, and moved to a cheap marina. Now, after 2 1/2 years, the house bank is pretty much shot, so time for new batteries. I'm adding another solar panel to the bimini frame, and need to add some stainless bracing. Just ordered $301.00 of stuff from Sailrite to accomplish this.
> 
> So, obviously, We're not cruising on a true $500.00/month, but get by pretty cheap most months. Do your best. It isn't easy sometimes, but sure beats the heck out of a mortgage payment, property taxes, car payments, high utility bills.....blah, blah, blah! Good luck to you new guys. See ya out there soon.
> 
> Ralph


Ralph, when I cut loose I took will not be a true 500/month person either however I sure won't be in he 3000/ month category. The 500 will just be our (the rest of us) informal goal however we will be comfortable and be realistic(for us)
Have fun dude.


----------



## RTB

jerryrlitton said:


> Ralph, when I cut loose I took will not be a true 500/month person either however I sure won't be in he 3000/ month category. The 500 will just be our (the rest of us) informal goal however we will be comfortable and be realistic(for us)
> Have fun dude.


I'm not sure if there has been a post here about this, but I'll put it out there.

First, we left with less money than we had planned on. After selling the home and all the stuff, we had a pretty nice cruising kitty to work with (our plan). But after hauling the boat, we had a few extra expenses that wasn't planned for .....like a new rudder. After all was done in the yard, which also included all new thru-hulls and hoses, bottom job, cutlass bearing, new 3 blade prop, and I can't recall what else, our kitty took an $8,000.00 hit. But the boat was ready. Also, little things like buying a new dinghy, outboard, and new ground tackle, standing rigging inspection, etc. took another huge bite. We still had a nice kitty to leave with (just smaller).

For us, we had a big trip ahead of us. Leaving Texas, heading to the Bahamas is a bunch of miles on the ICW, with not so many decent anchorages for much of the way. So, here's the deal - when you first leave, it's kind of a honey moon phase. You are still used to spending like when you were living on land. And not surprisingly, it is amazing how quickly those boat bucks evaporate. A night or two here, a week or two there, staying at a marina. The occasional meals at restaurants. Fuel for the boat, dinghy, and Honda generator. Well, again, it's pretty scary to check your bank balance and see all that money becoming a smaller and smaller amount.

I think the beginning is hard. Once you've been out for a year or two, you've got a handle on spending. It gets easier the longer you cruise. So, I'm just giving the new cruiser's out there something to think about. We're all different. Being frugal is easier for some than others. Again I warn - keep money aside for those unexpected boat repairs. We actually had very few problems, but we left with the boat in really great condition considering it's age. No doubt though, things like bottom jobs will eventually come up after a couple of years (or less). Batteries don't last much longer, if your using the typical flooded group 24's or 27's. At least that's my experience.

Back to monthly expenses....Even though most things cost a fair bit more in the Bahamas, Paradise is where we actually spent the least. Anchor out for a week or two at a time in remote areas, and you won't spend a penny. There isn't anywhere to spend it. Find where you can get water for free. Avoid buying expensive beer. Buy cheap rum and wine! Avoid those $20.00 hamburgers at Staniel Cay! Look for fresh veggies and canned chicken. Like I say, all this gets easier the longer you do it. Have fun out there!

Ralph


----------



## MikeOReilly

christian.hess said:


> well its been a lontime since I have done some cruising(and posting on this thread)...but the time has come to plan a "sabbatical" from work, since I cant sell my boat for pennies...in paradise I have decided to keep my islander...
> 
> plan is to sail her to panama leave here there at balboa or similar, then take her across the canal early next year on another sabbatical...


That's awesome buddy! The plans sound great. Hope you keep us posted Christian.



Sal Paradise said:


> Mike I'm an avid motorcyclist so I appreciate the allure of the road but just curious why don't you move your boat south? Still plenty of time to get her to the ICW before ice locks you in. Motorcycles are easy to move anytime.


Well, it's kinda complicated Sal, but our boat doesn't go back into the water till next Spring. However, our plans were rolling so we decided to carry on. We'll spend the next eight months land-cruising using our bikes. We're planning to live the $500/month lifestyle by mostly tenting and visiting friends along the way. Our bikes are small, and very fuel efficient (80-90 mpg), and we plan to camp in cheap or free locations as much as possible.


----------



## MikeOReilly

RTB said:


> ...I think the beginning is hard. Once you've been out for a year or two, you've got a handle on spending. It gets easier the longer you cruise. So, I'm just giving the new cruiser's out there something to think about. We're all different. Being frugal is easier for some than others. Again I warn - keep money aside for those unexpected boat repairs. We actually had very few problems, but we left with the boat in really great condition considering it's age. No doubt though, things like bottom jobs will eventually come up after a couple of years (or less). Batteries don't last much longer, if your using the typical flooded group 24's or 27's. At least that's my experience.


Thanks Ralph, this is really good to hear. Based on the experiences like yours my partner and I are expecting and bracing for the bank account to decline rather rapidly for our first couple of years. We keep reminding each other "don't panic", if/when this happens. So thanks!


----------



## paulk

Good article in this month's Woodenboat about a couple (now with two children) who've been cruising RTW for ten years. The article says their average yearly budget is $10k, including maintenance and food.


----------



## travlin-easy

All of this is fine, at least till you get sick. I just spent a week in a lousy hospital with c.diff. A one week supply of special antibiotics just cost me $695, A DRUG i must take for two weeks minimum. The hospital stay will be about $100,000 of which medicare will cover $80.000. I don't know how my supplemental insurance will cover, but I know all the meds are my burden. Oh, and I lost $4,000 in income because I'll still be contageous for at least 30 days.

Stay well my friends,

Gary


----------



## MikeOReilly

travlineasy said:


> All of this is fine, at least till you get sick. I just spent a week in a lousy hospital with c.diff. A one week supply of special antibiotics just cost me $695, A DRUG i must take for two weeks minimum. The hospital stay will be about $100,000 of which medicare will cover $80.000. I don't know how my supplemental insurance will cover, but I know all the meds are my burden. Oh, and I lost $4,000 in income because I'll still be contageous for at least 30 days.
> 
> Stay well my friends,


So true Gary. We can never know what the universe will throw at us. A severe blow like this would completely derail our meagre plans. This is partly why we are leaving now, when we are still relatively young, and in good physical shape. But that doesn't mean are immune from being struck down.

Get well Gary. That is the most important thing. And I sure hope the financials work out. I will say, as a Canadian this kind of hospital cost is foreign to me. It's why the only place that scares me to travel in is the USA. I break my leg, and I could be financially ruined. Crazy


----------



## Omatako

travlineasy said:


> All of this is fine, at least till you get sick. I just spent a week in a lousy hospital with c.diff. A one week supply of special antibiotics just cost me $695, A DRUG i must take for two weeks minimum. The hospital stay will be about $100,000 of which medicare will cover $80.000. I don't know how my supplemental insurance will cover, but I know all the meds are my burden. Oh, and I lost $4,000 in income because I'll still be contageous for at least 30 days.


Man, I can't believe how much medical care costs in the US. A country that is a world power and a leader in almost everything, can spend trillions of dollars fighting other people's wars, cannot afford to look after their own people. 14 grand a day?!? That's absolutely outrageous. So what happens the the supermarket bag-packer earning a minimum wage who gets sick? Where does he find $100K?

Two years ago, I was in hospital for a week in Auckland with double pneumonia. The whole stay, all the drugs, several weeks of after-care and the ambulance that fetched me from my home cost me NZ$0. Not one cent. And we have a tax base of less than 2 million people.

Apologies, I'm not America-bashing - I'm just totally incredulous. I almost pleased that I won't be cruising the US (more's the pity).

And that's the end of my thread drift.


----------



## jerryrlitton

One of the reasons that I choose to live outside. And I am a twenty year vet plus ten years as a Fed.


----------



## christian.hess

dont scare me guys...just moved here! jajajaja

anyways my islander 36 thread is alive again...planning stages right now, will be rebuilding the yanmar 2qm for the repower and installing a used wheel pilot...

Im in the market for certain things if anybody has stuff laying around

departure date is november 16, costa del sol(el salvador) san juan del sur, Nicaragua, perlas(panama), balboa, panama. leave it there then come back next season and sail it up to the gulf of mexico...

so I guess my original plan for the boat will hopefully now after so long come true! funny how life works! jajajaja

wish me luck

happy sailing


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

I don't think it's a thread drift at all. In order to keep costs low, it helps to be aware of of what those costs are. Medical/Health care is an important thing to consider.

I'm coming up to retirement from the military in a few years and seeing how the V.A. has been handling things, I'm not sure I would want to go that route. But, we'll see what happens in the future.

I can understand why many, not just boaters, choose to go overseas for certain medical treatments, due to the high costs in the US. I know some countries have very good medical services and at better prices.


----------



## christian.hess

jerryrlitton said:


> One of the reasons that I choose to live outside. And I am a twenty year vet plus ten years as a Fed.


boat almost done bud? whens the splash?:wink:wink


----------



## christian.hess

happy to be back posting on here guys..."sabbatical" was great, jajajaja

lets get this thread started again

peace


----------



## jerryrlitton

christian.hess said:


> boat almost done bud? whens the splash?:wink:wink


Not only does Satun have the normal tides to contend with but every two weeks they get the high highs tides. End of this month we get about four days of extra high tides so the second splash will be then. The boat is finished so now we are in the waiting mode. I have an almost 2 meter draft and many places a 2.1 meter river depth. Max









Truly a picture is worth a thousand words. So this is all we will say about that.


----------



## JonEisberg

christian.hess said:


> happy to be back posting on here guys..."sabbatical" was great, jajajaja


Good to see you back, as well... ;-)



christian.hess said:


> lets get this thread started again


Speaking of which, has anyone checked out the OP's blog lately?

His writing can be pretty cryptic at times, but it sure doesn't look like he's going "voyaging" anytime in the foreseeable future...

Sounds like the girlfriend has departed, the boat is for sale, and he might even be considering taking a _Job..._

That window of opportunity can close awfully quickly, sometimes...


----------



## MikeOReilly

Yes, welcome back Christian. It's great to read your words again. You bring life to this thread. And even better to hear you're heading out again.



Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> I don't think it's a thread drift at all. In order to keep costs low, it helps to be aware of of what those costs are. Medical/Health care is an important thing to consider.


I'm about to confront the US health cost issue headlong as my spouse and I begin our full-time cruising life with a motorcycle journey through the southern states. I am pretty comfortable with being able to pay as we go for healthcare just about everywhere else (and relying on my Canadian coverage while in Canada), but the USA scares me. Although I dislike insurance, we will be going well covered when we cross the border.

I am constantly amazed at how much our American friends have to shell out for something most other countries' citizens take for granted. I really doubt I could do what we're doing if we lived in America. Healthcare costs would make our early retirements impossible.


----------



## Capt Len

Traveled and lived in Thailand for years. Saved a bundle by not having any travel insurance but when I collapsed and died in Bangkok , the bill was only slightly more than the BC Med reimbursed me. And glad to pay for the incredible service. When I piled up a motor scooter 2 years ago,broke 3 ribs, collar, collapsed lung and bled like a stuck pig because of the warfin plus lots of soft tissue damage the full bill wasn't covered because of a week in ICU .Even so it was only a few boat bucks for the best hospital care imaginable.Cremation is reasonably priced too.


----------



## RTB

christian.hess said:


> happy to be back posting on here guys..."sabbatical" was great, jajajaja
> 
> lets get this thread started again
> 
> peace


I love your spirit!

Ralph


----------



## MikeOReilly

Capt Len said:


> Traveled and lived in Thailand for years. Saved a bundle by not having any travel insurance but when I collapsed and died in Bangkok , ..


Uhmm... I didn't realize the afterlife had wifi :devil.

Thanks Len. Good experience. What scooter were you driving?


----------



## Capt Len

Mike I drove big bikes for years, Got on a rental (150cc?) and I became dangerous : rocky jungle path in paradise .Whoda thunk it.


----------



## christian.hess

JonEisberg said:


> Good to see you back, as well... ;-)
> 
> Speaking of which, has anyone checked out the OP's blog lately?
> 
> His writing can be pretty cryptic at times, but it sure doesn't look like he's going "voyaging" anytime in the foreseeable future...
> 
> Sounds like the girlfriend has departed, the boat is for sale, and he might even be considering taking a _Job..._
> 
> *That window of opportunity can close awfully quickly, sometimes...*




thats WHY jon you must grasp it and grab it as effervescent it may be at times

look

we get chances...you either take them or you dont...thats IT

no bs here

peace


----------



## christian.hess

Capt Len said:


> Mike I drove big bikes for years, Got on a rental (150cc?) and I became dangerous : rocky jungle path in paradise .Whoda thunk it.


"scooter"

"thailand"

"paradise"

thai boxer punch to the face

that was* my "*THAI" experience

never REGRET, wouldnt change a bit thinking back...

JAJAJAJAJAJAJA


----------



## MikeOReilly

Too much fun. I'm currently riding my "scooter" across Canada and then to the souther USA, maybe into Mexico. Hope to avoid any adventures that end in medical activities. 

And to keep this drift on-topic, we are travelling the $500/month way. Tenting in cheap/free locations, eating locally and sponging, er I mean visiting friends along the way. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> Too much fun. I'm currently riding my "scooter" across Canada and then to the souther USA, maybe into Mexico. Hope to avoid any adventures that end in medical activities.
> 
> And to keep this drift on-topic, we are travelling the $500/month way. Tenting in cheap/free locations, eating locally and sponging, er I mean visiting friends along the way.
> 
> Why go fast, when you can go slow


you have a home in the south here in georgia if you stop by and go down to mexico...
we are in columbus, on the border with alabama...its actually very nice here, and the FOOD I hear is great too

jajajajajaja:laugh


----------



## newhaul

MikeOReilly said:


> And to keep this drift on-topic, we are travelling the $500/month way. Tenting in cheap/free locations, eating locally and sponging, er I mean visiting friends along the way.
> 
> Why go fast, when you can go slow


Best called couch surfing. :laugh


----------



## krisscross

MikeOReilly said:


> Too much fun. I'm currently riding my "scooter" across Canada and then to the souther USA, maybe into Mexico. Hope to avoid any adventures that end in medical activities.
> 
> And to keep this drift on-topic, we are travelling the $500/month way. Tenting in cheap/free locations, eating locally and sponging, er I mean visiting friends along the way.


My offer still stands. Stop by if you go through North Carolina. I'm only about an hour from Blue Ridge Parkway - an absolute must see when riding a bike through Eastern US.


----------



## christian.hess

newhaul good to see you man!


----------



## newhaul

christian.hess said:


> newhaul good to see you man!


Hey man how's the FAM doing in Georgia? culture shock over yet? BTW I'm mad at you your move forced me to change my couch surfing plans for next year. LOL. So I guess I will just have to sail north to Alaska next year. :laughlaugh


----------



## Capt Len

Newhaul, if you are serious about Alaska, I just dropped off all the charts to Skagway at Boater's Exchange in Sidney.Been trying to give them away for a while but seems like few have cohones to go past Desolation.


----------



## newhaul

Capt Len said:


> Newhaul, if you are serious about Alaska, I just dropped off all the charts to Skagway at Boater's Exchange in Sidney.Been trying to give them away for a while but seems like few have cohones to go past Desolation.


Not so much cahones as having confidence in my boat and my abilities also knowing if my islander sinks I'm out 300 bucks for the boat and 25 bucks for the motor :devil:laugh I've been in conditions that would make a washing machine look like a calm day ( I wear depends on those occasions because I know how bad I will be scared at times ) :devil


----------



## MikeOReilly

Thanks Christian, Krisscross. That's very kind of both of you. I'd definitely love to drop in, and may do so if our journey takes us your way. It's really hard to know where we'll go right now. We have a rough plan to drive down the west coast through the fall and then somehow get over to Arizona area as it gets colder and wetter. The Oregon coast is beaconing right now, but I'm not sure how long we can linger there before the cold and damp will drive us inland. It's all uncertain ... and too much fun. 

Of course right now we have to get to Alberta by Sept. 1 (memorial service to put on), and the good old northern Ontario summer is giving us 10 to 13 Celsius temperatures and rainy conditions to motorcycle through. Fun fun...


Why go fast, when you can go slow


----------



## barefootnavigator

New haul, good weather and route planning will get you a lot farther than cahones. I was headed that way this summer happily cruising on a budget of $400.00 per month. We made it as far as Desolation but the 100 degree temperatures got to my old dog so we turned around and headed south looking for colder water. Make sure your rudder will stay on and your mast will stay up, your boat is the perfect boat for this trip. Its funny how many people told us we couldn't sail the inside passage, we sailed everywhere and only used the engine a few times when we needed an emergency potty break for the dog. Met lots of super keel people on small boats having a great time. Take Len's generous offer for charts, we had been collecting charts for years but still had some pretty big gaps where we were sailing blind. Never in your life will you find a better cruising ground. There are good protected anchorages everywhere. We would sail in after of a long day beating in 25 knots and it would be so calm I would wake up in the middle of the night in a panic thinking we were aground because it was so still. We had all the usual wild life encounters including a Sasquatch in Jervice inlet, met over a dozen engine-less sailors and even people out there on budgets smaller than ours. Provision well, Canada is expensive. Have good ground tackle and a stern hook and leave early April or May at the Latest. The number one piece of gear I missed on the trip was a good light air sail but I still made good progress with all plain sail.


----------



## newhaul

I know and that's what I said in my post I already have charts from Adak to San Diego and beyond in electronic and hard copy. As far as beating in heavier winds not a problem also I'm the guy that uses a spinnaker as a Genny when the winds go away I have semetrical and asemetrical ones for my lil islander. Actually I am planning to go north in the late spring on the outside and come back in the fall inland. Stopping to fish here and there along the way. I carry at least a six month supply of food and have a survivor 35 water maker. With fishing to sup.iment I won't need to purchase any supplies along the way. I trust my vessel and my abilities.


----------



## ducatimaui

Congratulations newhaul! We went south from California in December '93 with waterline lowering months of food aboard in our 1961 Gurney 35 RORC masthead sloop. We rebuilt her from the frames up and trusted. We and the master frame builder rebuilt/upgraded all except had "professionally" installed a couple fancy electrical circuitry that quickly died - no not tossed overboard - and our too weak Volvo also being "professionally" replaced (who the bus mechanics in Acapulco properly repaired/placed). We fished by dragging a line or two while offshore and spear fished at anchor. Our Power Survivor 35 and a couple solar panels rail mounted kept us going with engine charge about every three to four weeks. No marinas for the trip saving tons of money and having a wilder far more enjoyable experience. Have a great trip north next year and keep the tankers out of the Great Bear Sea while gorging on all that salmon, halibut, ling & black cod, shellfish - molluscs, crustaceans, and echinoderms, yum.


----------



## Sal Paradise

MikeOReilly said:


> We have a rough plan to drive down the west coast through the fall and then somehow get over to Arizona area as it gets colder and wetter. The


Fantastic riding in Arizona. Check out Jerome.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Sal Paradise said:


> Fantastic riding in Arizona. Check out Jerome.


Thanks Sal, just looked it up. Looks like a great place to ride.

We're stopped in Thunder Bay for a day or so to finalize our junk storage and catch up with friends. Then it's off to Alberta for a few weeks, and then either west or south depending on weather.


----------



## Bob142

Mike if you go West...When you get to Vancouver do a small detour to the North and come to Lund...It is the start or end of Highway 101 the other end is the tip of South America...My boat is in the harbour and you are welcome to roll out your sleeping bags...it is a warm dry place to sleep and has cooking facilities...Later...


----------



## Capt Len

By far the best place in the world is Vancouver Island. I'm in Naniamo ,Jumping back to the continent at Victoria to Port Angeles puts you back on 101 ,the coast road to San Fransisco


----------



## travlin-easy

Mike, same offer if you get to this part of the world. The boat has all the conveniences. I'm still weeks from being well enough to sail.

Gary


----------



## MikeOReilly

Thanks guys. I really do appreciate all the hospitality, and beware what you offer. If we pass near you will very likely will drop in. After all, we're homeless and incomeless :wink.


----------



## christian.hess

MikeOReilly said:


> Thanks guys. I really do appreciate all the hospitality, and beware what you offer. If we pass near you will very likely will drop in.* After all, we're homeless and incomeless *:wink.


thats the most stress free lifestyle out there....and you know that! jajaja

peace and good luck on the riding...be careful:wink


----------



## jerryrlitton

Code:














Beach hookah.

http://goo.gl/maps/HjQZ2


----------



## MikeOReilly

Very cool Jerry. I don't know anything about hookahs, but it looks neat. Sure it's not a bong though? That would fit with those snazzy shorts you're wearing :devil.

Anyway, I'm jealous. Here's where we're "cruising" right now. At least we're looking at water :wink

https://goo.gl/maps/QmW7UpbfyUS2


----------



## Capt Len

Jerry, my first impression of your hooka was ??? Mine is a coil of SS tubing in a 5 gal bucket of cold water .Then I realized we're talking different vapours. I don't have Malaysian duty free here on the Salish Sea.


----------



## travlin-easy

Mike, that place looks cold - get the Hell out of there while you still can! 

Gary


----------



## MikeOReilly

travlineasy said:


> Mike, that place looks cold - get the Hell out of there while you still can!


You're so right my friend. We're here for family matters (memorial service, wrapping up mom-in-law's estate, etc.) and we're also getting the motorcycles serviced for the next big run. After that we're hopefully heading west over the Rockies and then south. It's already snowed a couple of times, but nothing has stuck yet, so keep your fingers crossed.


----------



## fryewe

MikeOReilly said:


> ...We're here for family matters (memorial service, wrapping up mom-in-law's estate, etc.) and we're also getting the motorcycles serviced for the next big run. After that we're hopefully heading west over the Rockies and then south. It's already snowed a couple of times, but nothing has stuck yet, so keep your fingers crossed.


Condolences...and be careful out there...especially early morning riding in the mountains where shadow and frost can make things dangerous...


----------



## goat

MikeOReilly said:


> Very cool Jerry. I don't know anything about hookahs, but it looks neat. Sure it's not a bong though? That would fit with those snazzy shorts you're wearing :devil.
> 
> Anyway, I'm jealous. Here's where we're "cruising" right now. At least we're looking at water :wink
> 
> https://goo.gl/maps/QmW7UpbfyUS2


Must be nice way down South.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Fort+McMurray,+AB/@56.7050133,-111.3704079,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x53b03aeeff1a4459:0x5c8133330dca74b7?hl=en


----------



## jerryrlitton

Capt Len said:


> Jerry, my first impression of your hooka was ??? Mine is a coil of SS tubing in a 5 gal bucket of cold water .Then I realized we're talking different vapours. I don't have Malaysian duty free here on the Salish Sea.


See you in January my friend.


----------



## MikeOReilly

goat said:


> Must be nice way down South.
> 
> https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Fort+McMurray,+AB/@56.7050133,-111.3704079,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x53b03aeeff1a4459:0x5c8133330dca74b7?hl=en


Just noticed your post Goat. You definitely win :wink.


----------



## popeye31

Im reading a book right now called Voyaging on a Small Income by Ann Hill. her and her husband at one point traveled for a year on 1,500 so at $500 a month you will be living lavishly by there standards. there are tips all through the book like how to care for your food to make it last longer, when to get supplies and when not to and for the person just getting started what to look for in a boat.To me its written like a journal of her time sailing and she explains that in the beginning so you must read the hole book because some of the tips she gives are hidden in her small stories of them sailing. the book is a good read . I would recommend it to any one.


----------



## carlwk3c

Brent Swain;1353 889 said:


> I wouldn't feed that to a dog  It has caused a lot of diabetes and heart disease.


I guess you haven't seen the latest news.
All the dietary guidance to avoid fats and cholesterol turned out to be BS.
People who drink whole milk, eat eggs and bacon, etc. have LESS heart disease, etc. than those who drink skim milk and avoid all those "bad" foods. Turns out, they replace fats with (cheap) carbs (promoted by big agribusiness), and THAT's the killer.c
AND, the statins pushed by big pharma to "control your cholesterol" are horrible for your health, too.


----------



## travlin-easy

Carl, you are absolutely correct. There is absolutely, positively, no correlation between high cholesterol and cardio-vascular disease, but the drug companies and medical professionals are making a fortune selling this myth to the American public. I spent 15 years working in Cardio-Pulmonary Medicine, and more than half of our patients that had to undergo cardio-vascular surgery had low or normal cholesterol levels. Want more proof? Take a look at 




There are loads of studies about statins, most of which clearly show that you will not live one moment longer if you take these drugs that have some very nasty side effects. Your cardiologist may try to argue that point, but when mine did I said "show me a single study that shows this." He could not, mainly because there are none.

The South Beach and Atkins Diets, however, clearly show that you can pretty much eliminate a lot of the diabetes problems brought about by abnormally high carbohydrate intakes.

All the best,

Gary


----------



## MedSailor

travlineasy said:


> Carl, you are absolutely correct. There is absolutely, positively, no correlation between high cholesterol and cardio-vascular disease, but the drug companies and medical professionals are making a fortune selling this myth to the American public. I spent 15 years working in Cardio-Pulmonary Medicine, and more than half of our patients that had to undergo cardio-vascular surgery had low or normal cholesterol levels. Want more proof? Take a look at
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are loads of studies about statins, most of which clearly show that you will not live one moment longer if you take these drugs that have some very nasty side effects. Your cardiologist may try to argue that point, but when mine did I said "show me a single study that shows this." He could not, mainly because there are none.
> 
> The South Beach and Atkins Diets, however, clearly show that you can pretty much eliminate a lot of the diabetes problems brought about by abnormally high carbohydrate intakes.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Gary


You mean I'm supposed to be making a fortune from prescribing and endorsing statins? Dang! I've been missing out!

Caution, thinking you can outsmart your cardiologist on issues of the heart. I wouldn't try outsmarting an aeronautical engineer on jet design for example. "Nobody can prove that wings work. It's a scam! Watch this!" :eek

MedSailor


----------



## travlin-easy

I had my hand inside a patient's chest before my cardiologist pooped in his first diaper. Just because he made it through medical school, an internship and residency doesn't mean mean he has a lick of common sense. I'm not trying to outsmart him - in fact, I just may fire his ass when I see him in two weeks. We're gonna have a serious talk about his non-availability when I have a nasty arrhythmia problem and cannot get an appointment for 5 weeks. 

Now, did you actually watch that video, and some of the others associated with it? If you did, don't you think that just maybe, maybe, the information about cardio-vascular disease you've garnered over the years may be incorrect? Was it not the medical community that first claimed trans-fats were good for us? Whoops! Now, I must admit that I've only read about a dozen cholesterol studies over the past 10 years, none of which provided proof of longevity because the patient took statins, which as you well know, have some really nasty, and possibly deadly, side effects. 

As for you making a fortune prescribing statins, it's not my fault that you don't have a pile of money invested in those drug company stocks. Guess you missed the boat on that one. My next door neighbor dumped about 50 grand into those drug company stocks when the statins first became available. He retired at age 52 just five years later, bought a bass boat and spends his days fishing and hunting, depending on the season.

Ironically, back in the late 1960s, I was an instructor of Cardio-Pulmonary Technology in the PNW at Spokane Community College. It was a pretty part of the country until winter arrived on that side of the Cascade Mountains, then things tended to get real nasty, which is why I returned to Maryland in 1970 and went to work at The Johns Hopkins Hospital as Technical Director of the Pulmonary Division and ran the Pulmonary Function Lab. That was the same year my cardiologist was born. 

So, I sincerely hope you are not one of those guys that not only prescribes Statins, but also takes them to maintain a low cholesterol level. If this is the case, you may wish to rethink your approach to cardio-vascular health. That Big Mac won't destroy your liver, but those statins sure can.

Good luck,

Gary


----------



## newhaul

No gary it wont hurt my liver but it will not help my waist any either


----------



## MedSailor

travlineasy said:


> Now, did you actually watch that video, and some of the others associated with it? If you did, don't you think that just maybe, maybe, the information about cardio-vascular disease you've garnered over the years may be incorrect?
> Gary


Sure I watched it after you asked. Did is change my opinion? Heck no! Youtube is full of videos with home made charts that purport all kinds of stuff. Aliens. Awesome abs in 5 minutes. Conspiracies galore. Basically, like TV, they show anything you want to hear. It'll take peer reviewed journals and a multitude of well constructed studies to sway my opinion.

FYI the peer reviewed journals are available for review in abstract (and sometimes in full free text) for all to see on the good ol; internet. Just put in your favorite search terms. 
Home - PubMed - NCBI

It took me about 60 seconds to find that article you demanded of your cardiologist. My guess is that he could tell you'd already made up your mind and chose to spend his precious time on someone else who valued his opinion. The guy in the other room also waited 5 weeks, so why not allocate the time to him?

I wonder what engineering would be like if everyone had as much freedom of choice to make big decisions as in medicine? "I choose non-heat treated steel for my airplane's wing spar! Those cone-headed engineers have no common sense and you can't prove that heat-treating makes wings stay on when they'd otherwise fall off. Sure their statistical models show that but bah-humbug to all their years of hard earned knowledge! I may have no training in metallurgical chemistry, but by god I was riveting airplane parts back when they were made of stone!"

What does all this have to do with low buck? Hmmm..... not much. Statins are generic now! :wink No, really not sailing related. For that reason I'll cease fire now.

MedSailor


----------



## krisscross

I don't think you can afford all these drugs when cruising on $500 a month.


----------



## MedSailor

krisscross said:


> I don't think you can afford all these drugs when cruising on $500 a month.


I believe that sailing is an inherently healthy activity. Sailors, in my (biased) observation, seem to age really well. I attribute it to a lower stress lifestyle and constant, varied forms of exercise. Sailors who retired before their arteries hardened at their desk job and are sure to have their healthy "one" drink a day :wink are a group that probably won't need the drugs anyway!

Speaking of exercise. How do the long term budget cruisers get cardio exercise. I always feel that is the first to go, whereas upper body strength and core strength seem to benefit from a longer cruise.

MedSailor


----------



## Group9

MedSailor said:


> I believe that sailing is an inherently healthy activity. Sailors, in my (biased) observation, seem to age really well. I attribute it to a lower stress lifestyle and constant, varied forms of exercise. Sailors who retired before their arteries hardened at their desk job and are sure to have their healthy "one" drink a day :wink are a group that probably won't need the drugs anyway!
> 
> Speaking of exercise. How do the long term budget cruisers get cardio exercise. I always feel that is the first to go, whereas upper body strength and core strength seem to benefit from a longer cruise.
> 
> MedSailor


I try to go for a row in my dinghy for cardio every chance I get.


----------



## Don L

krisscross said:


> I don't think you can afford all these drugs when cruising on $500 a month.


It works out for me to be $0.50/day paying full price. I bet $500/mo people get a better deal.


----------



## travlin-easy

Living aboard for six months provided me with lots of exercise - especially when anchored out or on a mooring ball. That boat was in constant motion, for which your body tries to compensate continuously. I dropped 50 pounds, slept like a log, and had more energy than I had in years. When I got back home my wife was amazed at my appearance.

So, I guess living aboard is good for your health, at least that's what I keep telling her. She wasn't real happy about me being away from home for six months, though.

All the best,

Gary


----------



## jonneely

I was told to pop my head into here, just wanted to chime in that we pull off the $500/ mo average in Mexico so far. Its work but we do it! We also met a single hander with a dog that loved beer in his Mid 20's that cruised his catalina 27 in the sea for $6/ day budget. He is one hell of a spear fisherman but he makes it work as well!

cheers,
Jon


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## MikeOReilly

That's great to hear Jon. Love to hear where are you located in Mexico.


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## jonneely

The boat is currently on the hard in Guaymas, We are heading back down at the end of the month. Boat storage is $125/mo there


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## MikeOReilly

Great stuff Jon. Where have you been, and where are you headed? For that matter, what kind of boat do you have. 

It's great to read about people like you who are living the life that we talk about here. I'm slowly heading that way, but unfortunately will be in Canada and the US for couple more years. It's harder to live cheaply up here.


----------



## travlin-easy

jonneely said:


> The boat is currently on the hard in Guaymas, We are heading back down at the end of the month. Boat storage is $125/mo there


That's about the same as I pay at the head of Chesapeake Bay. Big problem here is that winter lasts about six months.

All the best,

Gary :2 boat:


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## MikeOReilly

jonneely said:


> In Mexico we have been able to cruise on a "Shoestring" budget as some would call it. Most months average $500, some under some over but our total average for last season was $550. We Anchor 99% of the time, make our own water, sail on and off the hook. We also Sail when most boats are motoring. Luckily we came to Mexico with an armada of light wind sails so we can move our 25,000 lb boat in the lightest of breezes, which saves on diesel. Since leaving SF we have used about 80 gallons of Diesel and 1 gallon of gas. We oar 99% of the time, but in San Diego A9 anchorage was a little far for us to ferry provisions so we mounted or 1.5hp Cruise and Carry. In Mexico we fished a lot with hard bait so we got to reuse lures over and over. Fish and rice is a normal dish for us. We make home made ginger beer out of ginger root, water, lime juice and yeast for our booze. Rum is surprisingly cheap in Mexico, our favorite is available in la paz for 26 pesos a liter ( less than $2 US) so we can make Dark and Stormys pretty much all we want. We enjoy this lifestyle, simple yes but we are making work!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jon


I hope you don't mind me quoting your post from over at the $3K party. I just think your post shows how, and where, the cruising life can be done frugally.

For example, can you post your ginger beer recipe? I used to make all sorts of beers when living on land, but have never tried it on the boat. What did you brew it it? How much did you make at one time? Details man, details :2 boat:.

BTW, we too have our boat currently on the hard for about $1K for the 6 winter months up here. That works out to pretty close to the same amount you're paying Jon -- Actually, in US Dollars it is cheaper ... the CND dollar sucks these days compared to the US. So maybe you folks should all come north :laugh.


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## travlin-easy

Mike, I'll come to Canada when you guy have coconut palms growing along the shores of the Saint Lawrence River. 

Gary


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## jonneely

Shannon will need to get you the exact recipe, but it is very, very, very simple. You brew in a 2-3 liter soda bottle. Needed ingredients is ginger root, lemon juice, yeast, sugar and water. You make a simple syrup first then add to each soda bottle. They brew faster where it is warm. In mexico you can get to 8-14% in about 2-3 day out in the cockpit. You have to breathe the bottles so they don't explode. Once you get them to the taste you desire throw them in the fridge to slow down the yeast. At that point you have about a week to drink that brew. We will have an entire video dedicated to making Prism's ginger beer.

Cheers,

Jon


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## MikeOReilly

jonneely said:


> Shannon will need to get you the exact recipe, but it is very, very, very simple. ...


Thanks Jon (& Shannon). Love to see the details when you get a chance. Cheap booze is one of the frugal necessities of life 



travlineasy said:


> Mike, I'll come to Canada when you guy have coconut palms growing along the shores of the Saint Lawrence River.


I was thinking of you when I wrote that Gary . You know, with global warming, you might just get your chance .

Actually, palm trees can already be found on the Canadian shores of Lake Erie. Check it out (and come on up :devil).


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## travlin-easy

We have someone in our neighborhood that plants coconut palms and banana trees, along with some beautiful bougainvillias and giant ferns every spring. Shortly after the first frost they're all brown and dead. Several Chesapeake Bay marinas do the same thing each spring along their beaches, the one that really goes all out is Great Oaks Marina in the upper bay in Fairlee Creek. Kinda gives them that tropical atmosphere that draws huge weekend crowds when the have beach bands.

https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x89c7f16dbf855c07:0x8e8726fd62665181!2m5!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i100!3m1!7e1!4shttps://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname%3D113529648338680666665%26id%3D5862402711614540834%26target%3DPHOTO!5sgreat+oak+marina+-+Google+Search&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CHgQoiowCmoVChMIkbSdjIGHyQIVxHQ-Ch0Z5Q-s

All the best,

Gary


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## jerryrlitton

Now that I am cruising in SE Asia I can give you a simple preliminary report. If 500/month can be done this is the place. However in my inexperienced opinion this is un realistic. For one thing there is always something. This week it is an AIS issue. Seems like Thailand is making it mandatory to have one (at least the latest rumor says so). Even though I am buying a Matsutek direct from China and installing it myself it will blow over half of the 500 away. If you want to maintain your boat, have some kind of insurance, eat out every now and then, spend 4-5 days in a marina to re supply every 30 days I think 1200-1500 USD is more realistic. There are hundreds of islands between here (Langkawi and Phuket) for diving but you have to refill your tanks somewhere. This is a great place to cruise. The Andamans Islands are a few days away. Sumatra is next door. It can be done however in my opinion it is not realistic.


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## travlin-easy

Mike, here's a link to a ginger beer recipe: Homemade Ginger Beer recipe | Epicurious.com Personally, I'll spend a bit more using my Mr. Beer Kit and the beer is really great tasting, and there is a huge variety of beers now available. Mr. Beer - World's Leader in Home Brewing - Home page

Gary


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## Sal Paradise

travlineasy said:


> Mike, I'll come to Canada when you guy have coconut palms growing along the shores of the Saint Lawrence River.
> 
> Gary


Global warming is your friend. Just wait. :wink


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## travlin-easy

Sal, I'm sitting in my office with the space heater running full blast, my feet are still cold, and I'm wearing a heavy sweater. Sure wish those damned palm trees would start growing in my front yard, but that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. Just heard on the radio yesterday that there has been absolutely no change in overall global temperature in the past 18 years according to NOAA and several other agencies. And, there may be another mini ice-age like the one we experienced in the 1970s. Ain't that a kick in the butt! 

All the best,

Gary


----------



## Minnesail

travlineasy said:


> Just heard on the radio yesterday that there has been absolutely no change in overall global temperature in the past 18 years according to NOAA and several other agencies.


You might want to find a different radio station, because NOAA most certainly did not say that. Here is NASA and NOAA's joint report that 2014 was the warmest year on record:
NASA, NOAA Find 2014 Warmest Year in Modern Record

You may choose to disagree with their findings, but it is simply incorrect to claim that "NOAA and several other agencies" have reported no changes in global temperature.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

Anyway. Sorry. I realize this drags the thread far off-topic.


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## MikeOReilly

travlineasy said:


> Mike, here's a link to a ginger beer recipe: Homemade Ginger Beer recipe | Epicurious.com Personally, I'll spend a bit more using my Mr. Beer Kit and the beer is really great tasting, and there is a huge variety of beers now available. Mr. Beer - World's Leader in Home Brewing - Home page


Thanks. I'll check it out once we get back to the boat, and get underway again. I used to brew my own beer on land, mostly using basic kits and then mucking them up with various herbs, hops, and anything else that seemed like a good idea. A wise old friend (who happened to be the local Anglican priest) once showed up at my door with a handful of weeds. He stuck them in my face and said "Here! Put these in your next beer." I always listen to my priest , and it was great.

... now, what was I talking about? ... Oh ya, brewing beer on board. I'll check out Mr. Beer!



travlineasy said:


> Just heard on the radio yesterday that there has been absolutely no change in overall global temperature in the past 18 years according to NOAA and several other agencies. And, there may be another mini ice-age like the one we experienced in the 1970s. Ain't that a kick in the butt!


Not sure which radio you're listening to Gary, but NOAA is actually reporting that 2015 will once again be the hottest year on record, breaking the previous record set in (drum roll...) 2014.

Temperatures in 2015 on track to be record 1 degree C hotter - Technology & Science - CBC News

And October is set to blast all records:

October heat record smashed by 'incredible amount' - Technology & Science - CBC News

The whole "temperature stopped rising so climate change is bunk" argument came mostly from the popular press which kinda misrepresented the findings. It was then picked up by deniers who started spinning. Here's a quote from a 2015 U.S. study published journal Science:

_"There is no discernible ... decrease in the rate of warming between the second half of the 20th century and the first 15 years of the 21st century," say researchers with the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA).

The rate of temperature rise from 2000-14 was 0.116 C a decade, almost identical to 0.113 C a decade from 1950-99, they wrote.
_
So don't give up on the idea of palm trees in your backyard just yet my friend.


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## krisscross

I would say that people tend to spend what they can afford while cruising. If you only have $500 a month to spend, that is how you will live. And if you can afford to spend $3000 a month, that is just great for you, allowing you to unclench your cheeks every time you have to buy something.


----------



## krisscross

Drinking home made brew that still has active yeast in it takes a bit of getting used to. Some folks have bouts of violent runs and/or excessive belching. And if you manage to sustain fermentation in your gut by feeding it starches and sugars (bananas work great), you can be slightly tipsy all the time.


----------



## travlin-easy

While I don't believe a lot of the liberal press hype, especially when it comes to MAN MADE global warming, I do check some sources ouScientists balk at ?hottest year? claims: Ignores Satellites showing 18 Year ?Pause? ? ?We are arguing over the significance of hundredths of a degree? ? The ?Pause? continues | Climate Depott here: The information was from a local, well recognized, talk radio station here, WCBM and they were interviewing someone from the BBC.

As I age, not very gracefully I might add, I tend to feel the cold a lot more than I did when I was in my 20s, 30s, and 40s. At age 75 I consider any temperature lower than my age the dead of winter. I stop sailing when the temperature gets below 60, which it did this past week. So, at the rate things are going, I'm not gonna live long enough to see those palm trees growing in my front yard, but damned it sure would be nice. Guess I'll have to sail back to the Florida Keys and Dry Tortugas next fall.

All the best,

Gary


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## Don L

krisscross said:


> Drinking home made brew that still has active yeast in it takes a bit of getting used to. Some folks have bouts of violent runs and/or excessive belching.


helps you unclench your cheeks


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## travlin-easy

Mike, when you get down this way, I'll give you my Mr. Beer Kit. I just ordered a mix for their Classic Lite Beer, which should arrive sometime next week. I'll mix up a batch, which is about 2.5 gallons of beer. The cost of the ingredients has really went up quite a bit since I got the kit in 2003. Back then a mix sold for about $7. Today, that same mix goes for $14.95, plus shipping. Almost cheaper to buy the beer. Oh Hell, everyone needs at least one hobby - and drinking homemade beer sounds like a good hobby to me. 

All the best,

Gary


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## MikeOReilly

travlineasy said:


> ...Oh Hell, everyone needs at least one hobby - and drinking homemade beer sounds like a good hobby to me.


Sounds like a good hobby to me Gary; although following the KISS principle, I've cut to the chase and simply made drinking my hobby  Must be my good Irish genes coming through :2 boat:

Looking forward to meeting one of these years ... preferably someplace warm. Although maybe you'd like to visit us when we make it to Newfoundland :wink.


----------



## travlin-easy

The last time I was in Newfoundland, Saint Johns, I got plastered in a local bar, fell head over heels for a young lady I met there, only to discover that she was separated from her husband, still married, and just out for a good time. Good thing I got out of there when I did - that kind of stuff could get you in serious trouble, especially in 1960 when I was there. I'm sure things have changed a lot since then, though. The only problem I have with Newfoundland is it takes forever to get there from here, even if you fly. Think I await your arrival here in on the sunny shores of Chesapeake Bay.

Stay safe my friend,

Gary


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## newhaul

Don0190 said:


> helps you unclench your cheeks


Or possibly clench them more trying to stem the tide a bit :laugh


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## capt13

People have different things they can and can't live without, so their are different budgets. My first sailboat was a 24ft San Juan that I bought in Marco Island Florida, and sailed up to FT. Myers Beach. I was younger then, but lived on that boat for 3 years their with one 250 watt solar panel, and a honda generator, anchored out for free, and lived on $200.00 to $400.00 a month depending on how much I worked that month. I lived pretty damn good, ate good, felt good, and had some real good views. My point being, it is all what you can live on? Then the big question is what can you live without?


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## capt13

I am with you buddy, Obama can keep his Obama care! I have not and will never get it!


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## Don L

Been over 4 years now.

Surely by now the $500/mo club members have a few years of consistent months of spending to prove their position. If not how about the $1000/mo people, or the $1500/mo people? Lets see some detailed numbers with no “not counting”.


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## MikeOReilly

Don L said:


> Been over 4 years now.
> 
> Surely by now the $500/mo club members have a few years of consistent months of spending to prove their position. If not how about the $1000/mo people, or the $1500/mo people? Lets see some detailed numbers with no “not counting”.


You are hilarious.


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## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> You are hilarious.


I am aren't I. Of course they don't have that.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Thread sanitised a bit. 

Now, where were we? 

Mark


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## MikeOReilly

Thanks Mark. This was a great thread back a few years ago. Would be nice to revive some discussion about frugal sailing and cruising. 

The $500/month is not, and never was, intended to be the focus. It's just a way to get people thinking about ways to live this lifestyle inexpensively. It's easy to spend lots of money (if you have it), but it takes some effort to live at the more modest end of the financial spectrum.

One key factor for me (for us... I cruise as a couple) is to understand that we can't have it all. We have to make choices about where, and how we cruise. 

The single best way I've found to keep costs down is to avoid large, urban areas. And as much as possible, stay off the dock. It's hard to spend money when there's no where to spend it.


----------



## oldmanmirage

All threads related to cost usually contain some good information if you can just find what matters to you. The $500 catches my eye because that's what we're trying to spend per month in our videos about getting our Endeavour 32 ready to go cruising eventually. But there are plenty of caveats to that even. $500 does not include dock rent - which is $291. We don't include that because it varies so much, including those lucky enough not to have it !

But it is hard to stay within that budget. The last two months I've been lucky and got a lot of sidework so that money went to some good stuff. But so many little things are easy to buy but then I forget to actually put them in the budget calculations. Like Don talks about with budget - every rag gets counted. I need to go back and look through my Amazon and Ebay and checking account to find all those little purchases and make sure to add them up.

We've owned the boat that we bought for just over 14K about 6 months now and I think we have spent somewhere between 4-5K additional. I really need to go add that up. We do think that by the time we have it ready to go we'll have spent the purchase price on upgrades and maintenance. But that is what a lot of people consider normal for a boat in this price range. Take a 10-20K boat and spend that much again and you'll have a boat truly ready to go.


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## Killick

Are we talking about daily living costs - food, etc., - or are we talking about refit costs? The two are vastly different and refit costs can be all over the map. Daily living expenses for cruising to me seem quite random based on where you are in the world. You can't begin to compare $500 a month in the Med with the same amount on various little islands in the Carib. Imagine trying to live on a boat for $500 a month in Iceland and Scotland. You'd better be a good fisherman and a better thief.


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## MikeOReilly

Indeed... it's often the case that the cheapest boat to own is usually not the cheapest boat to buy. It's like taking out a mortgage, and paying for the house slowly over time. You still pay the same (or more), but the costs are spread out, so easier to manage for those of us with modest capital means.

But this thread has been less about the nitty-gritty of budgeting, and more about ideas around how to lead a watery life frugally. As I say, don't be all anal about the "$500/month" subject*, but it certainly does help to know where your money is going.

Our boat expenses are broken down into operating and capital expenses. Operating includes everything we need to live. In our case, we live on a fixed income (small pension). But we also have a small nest-egg of savings which we draw upon, mostly to manage larger one-off expenses. These are typically 'capital' items for the boat, or for other parts of our life.

* Since this thread started in 2014 $500 CND is now nearly $600 when standard CPI is applied.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Killick said:


> Are we talking about daily living costs - food, etc., - or are we talking about refit costs? The two are vastly different and refit costs can be all over the map. Daily living expenses for cruising to me seem quite random based on where you are in the world. You can't begin to compare $500 a month in the Med with the same amount on various little islands in the Carib. Imagine trying to live on a boat for $500 a month in Iceland and Scotland. You'd better be a good fisherman and a better thief.


Quite right! One of the critical factors for frugal living is to know where you can go, and where you can't. I think this is what seems to stump some naysayers; they can't seem to understand, or accept, that it is possible to live this life inexpensively, but it requires making some tough choices. 

In my experience, the single best way to limit costs are to avoid places everyone wants to go to. This mostly means avoiding larger urban areas, and certainly staying away from expensive locations. Anything that sniffs of a tourism destination is out. 

I can't speak about the Med or even the Carib; I've never cruised these areas. I've stayed exclusively in Canada. Generally speaking, Canada is not a cheap place to live, but even here one can do it inexpensively if you make the right choices about where, and how, one cruises.


----------



## SanderO

My experience. Started with a new Contest 36s w/ basic electronics. no plotter etc. The boat was equipped with main and head sail, anchor and rode, running rigging and sail cover.

The first 6 years I added / upgraded many things on the boat including but not limited to:

custom built 8:1 - 4:1 mainsheet
changed to larger wheel
added cockpit cushions
added solid vang
added electric windlass
added 200' chain
added storm sails
added baby stay for storm jib
added mast track for trysail
added storm jib, trysail
added cruising spinnaker
added engine driver refrigeration
added diesel fired forced air heating
added Dutchman to mainsail, modified sail cover
added 2 solar panels
added SSB radio w/ backstay antenna
added watermaker
added weather fax
adjustable pole for head sail
added 2nd anchor & lunch hook
added nylon snubber
replaced dock lines
replaced alum stanchion bases w/ stainless steel
added "position fixer" later became plotters
added high output alternator w/ smart regulator
added battery monitor
changed to larger batteries
added stand alone radar
added inverter
added shore power charger
replaced toilet w/ Groco Model K
built grates for head and cockpit sole
added below decks auto pilot
added cockpit displays
added inflatable dink and OB
added jack lines
assorted safety gear such as harnesses/floatation
numerous cabinet upgrades/add-ons in all cabins
replaced hatch board w/ 1/2 plexiglas
replaced dodger - stainless bows and sunbrella
added pillows for salon
added alum propane bottles
assembled extensive spares - hardware/fasteners
assembled extensive tools
assembled extra lines

I am guess that this cost about $25,000 ($5k/year)

+++++

Cruising was mostly routine maintenance while living on the anchor. I did replace diesel circulating and raw water pumps. Maintenance costs were less than $2K average for 5 years.. most things on board were in new or excellent condition (little to no use). Fuel was expensive and water was $.10/gal or similar.

Cost of food was spendy... Did not eat out much or spend on alcohol.


----------



## Don L

barefootnavigator said:


> I'm setting off again in a few months with a reasonably well stocked boat and hoping to live quite well on $1,200.00 for a the full six months.
> 
> My end goal once I'm free to head offshore is a $6,000.00 per year budget. I haven't suffered at all with my limited income and actually have gained weight since setting out. My 22' boat is small and simple but safe and easy to maintain to a very high standard.
> 
> I know there will be naysayers but what I'm really looking for is positive experiences of voyaging on a budget.
> 
> Art Of Hookie | Will work for food or money.


So this is from post #1. 

$1200 for 6 months - so how did that work after starting with stocked boat. What did it really cost? What was the cost of stocking the boat. When did you voyage to?

$6000/year after - how did it work out and for how long? Where did you go during that time? What happened to boat after?

I went to he site and there was no tabs to answer any of that. Maybe someone looking the to “win” will go find it.

There are boat costs to weekend “cruise”. There are costs to just “live” on a boat. There are costs to full time live and travel on a boat. And of low budget people start on that 3rd option and end up being the second. A lot of the second option then become the source of anti cruiser laws and efforts.

Low budget hopeful wannabe cruisers are not helped by bold claims of “I do it with $X that have no deals of cost breakdown over a period of years. Even boat costs alone are unless if you don't know what happened to the boat in end as it may now be abandoned.

My costs are MY costs. But i share all of them with a breadown and this thread greatly predates my cruising start. There are people here on SN that have posted in this thread from way back, where are their real life long term numbers? Why do they respnd to any request to provide this with smoke and mirrors.


----------



## MikeOReilly

SanderO said:


> Cruising was mostly routine maintenance while living on the anchor. I did replace diesel circulating and raw water pumps. Maintenance costs were less than $2K average for 5 years.. most things on board were in new or excellent condition (little to no use). Fuel was expensive and water was $.10/gal or similar.
> 
> Cost of food was spendy... Did not eat out much or spend on alcohol.


I guess we average about one major (i.e. spendy) upgrade or repair each season. Maintenance is ongoing. Key is to do the work (as much as possible) yourself. Materials don't actually cost a lot. It's the labour that really hurts.

Food is probably our highest ongoing cost, and getting worse these days. We almost never eat out (perhaps a few times per year), and we are careful with our expenditures. But we eat well, and fully (too fully as my weight attests).


----------



## joethecobbler

One winter, Early in my live aboard life, I spent the big money and took a slip near Ponce inlet, FL.
At the adventure yacht harbor, it was a nice place,in nead of upkeep, the price was right.
During one evening gathering in the boaters lounge captains of all economic standings were discussing the cost of cruising/ living aboard.
At the end of the evening the concensus was it will cost " everything you have" , be that $500 a month or $5000 
And after almost 20 years, it's proven to be accurate.


----------



## Don L

I bet lots of the derelict and boats with 3” of bottom growth anchored in same place here in Florida started with a similar belief.


----------



## MikeOReilly

joethecobbler said:


> At the end of the evening the concensus was it will cost " everything you have" , be that $500 a month or $5000
> 
> And after almost 20 years, it's proven to be accurate.


I think this is an adage that applies to a lot of lifestyles, not just cruising.


----------



## Killick

I think it helps to only read books written before 1990 or so. The Don Streets and Eric Hiscocks and Lin Pardeys of the world will not only save your bacon, they'll save your nest egg. Old ways, tried and true, cheap and cheerful, the unstoppable boat, the fathers that begot us. Have an "Amish" mindset - do not cast your eye upon Babylon, with all her delights! Reject the chart plotter and the electric winch! Cast aside the air conditioner and the hot shower! Take up the sextant, hold fast to the paper chart! Anchor out and dinghy in! Go out from among them and be ye separate! (Haha...)


----------



## MikeOReilly

Agreed Killick. This life doesn't have to cost a lot. It mostly depends on the individual, and how one chooses to live. This is why I say the best guide to how much one will spend on the water is to look at how one lives on land. 

If you're a rib-eye and fine merlot kinda guy then you're going to carry that lifestyle onto your boat. So too if you're a rice and beans kinda guy. And then everything in between.

But location and approach to cruising really makes a big difference. If you're constantly tied to a dock, or a paid mooring, you're going to spend more money than if you're swinging from your own anchor. If you're in an expensive area, especially a touristy one, you're going to spend more money. If you're pushing your boat hard, you're going to spend more money on maintenance.

Point is, if you want to live inexpensively, it can be done. But you do have to make choices, and you can't have everything.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife

I spoke to Lyn Pardy about restrictive budgets and where's the line. Her answer was that she had to poop in a bucket for 17 years.
There's gotta be balance - literally, in her case! - between cash and acceptability. Another female friend didn't like her shower that she'd been using for 5 years where she'd shower in the cockpit without screens, even in marinas.

We do it pretty frugally... On many times multiple of $500 per month. As Joe say, it takes everything.

Mark 😊


----------



## joethecobbler

Amish Sailing Fleet- I'm in.


----------



## Don L

I am only interested in with real documented numbers to review.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Split composting toilets into a thread of their own.. 

Also removed the $500 as the perameters of this thread as too many people take $500 literally


BTW my new job:











Mark


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## MikeOReilly

Thanks. The $500 thing was always a distraction. The interesting questions are around how to live this life frugally. Having a small budget forces this kind of thinking, but anyone, at any financial level can benefit from frugal choices.


----------



## MikeOReilly

What about boat size and type when considering a low cost sailing life? My view has always been to go with the smallest boat that suits your needs, not the biggest one you can afford. But I strongly believe you can go too small. 

To live inexpensively requires a boat that can operate independently for long periods of time. This, to me, means having sufficient storage and tankage so you can avoid having to go into a dock often. 

But of course, costs do go up with size (although it's not as simple as that). So finding the right size for one's needs seems to me to be the start of a frugal cruising lifestyle.


----------



## SanderO

MikeOReilly said:


> What about boat size and type when considering a low cost sailing life? My view has always been to go with the smallest boat that suits your needs, not the biggest one you can afford. But I strongly believe you can go too small.
> 
> To live inexpensively requires a boat that can operate independently for long periods of time. This, to me, means having sufficient storage and tankage so you can avoid having to go into a dock often.
> 
> But of course, costs do go up with size (although it's not as simple as that). So finding the right size for one's needs seems to me to be the start of a frugal cruising lifestyle.


This makes sense but it not so easy.
I got my boat new which had what appeared to me a lot of storage... moderate to small tanks and very comfortable interior and cockpit.
I did upgrades from refer, to heating, to below decks AP, to electronics, to rigging, roller furling, sails and a new dodger.
I began local cruising in LIS up to Maine. I spent summers on a mooring. I had a dink and OB.
Tanks size hardly mattered because fuel and water were so readily available in this region. Topping up the tanks was simply an inconvenience. But it enabled me to learn how to bring the boat along side.
My ground tackle was rarely used.
When I decided to sail south I made many changes
electric windlass & 200' of chain, 30' nylon snubber
watermaker
SSB radio
solar panels (on deck forward of dodger)
new VHF
Weatherfax
Stand alone radar (MFDs didn't exist back then)
Groco Model K toilet
assorted interior cabinet modifications including teak grates for shower and cockpit sole
cockpit cushions
storm canvas
secondary winches
drogue, MOB gear
liferaft
lots of spares

The 36s is "large" for a 36' LOA boat and was more than adequate for a cruising couple. I never felt "cramped" or lacking for stowage space. I realized I had no need for a long LOA despite the advantage of hull speed and stowage. I saw the most boats out there cruising were longer LOA..40 - 50 footers. But there were boats as small as the high 20s cruising. You don't need much clothing in the tropics... Most stowage is devoted to consumables. I didn't realize when I bought the boat how excellent the design was.
lots of stowage
comfortable (dry/protected) cockpit
comfortable spacious cabin
large U shaped galley
fast sailer (not great in light air)
very large forward facing nav station which is essentially my desk and a place where electronics are mounted
Most important single handing the boat was easy. If you need crew the cost of running the boat multiply.

Cruising means you live with less than you might on dirt. I found that easy and sensible. Once the expensive fitting out was done (almost all DIY) living on board was not costly... fuel, water in the Caribbean and of course food. Anchoring is free. You eat the same amount of food no matter what the LOA of your boat is. You do consume more fuel the longer the boat is.
I was never one to spend much on "entertainment" and so I didn't feel deprived on that score. On the other hand I met many interesting, helpful sailors which became my friends. "Tourism" was inexpensive... exploring the islands. I don't recall "fees" being high or memorable. That was in the 90s.... I am sure things have changed (cost much more).


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## MikeOReilly

SanderO said:


> Cruising means you live with less than you might on dirt. I found that easy and sensible. Once the expensive fitting out was done (almost all DIY) living on board was not costly... fuel, water in the Caribbean and of course food. Anchoring is free. You eat the same amount of food no matter what the LOA of your boat is. You do consume more fuel the longer the boat is.


Indeed...I find that a large part of the cost of living is driven by the space one choose to occupy. One of the best ways to live _on_ less is to live _in_ less. This is one of the reasons I was drawn to life on a smallish sailboat.



SanderO said:


> I was never one to spend much on "entertainment" and so I didn't feel deprived on that score. On the other hand I met many interesting, helpful sailors which became my friends. "Tourism" was inexpensive... exploring the islands. I don't recall "fees" being high or memorable. That was in the 90s.... I am sure things have changed (cost much more).


When I look at other people's expenditures, the discretionary spending on what I would call "entertainment" generally what outstrips my costs. We avoid these kinds of costs by staying away expensive areas.


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## Don L

SanderO said:


> This makes sense but it not so easy.
> I got my boat new which had what appeared to me a lot of storage... moderate to small tanks and very comfortable interior and cockpit.
> I did upgrades from refer, to heating, to below decks AP, to electronics, to rigging, roller furling, sails and a new dodger.
> I began local cruising in LIS up to Maine. I spent summers on a mooring. I had a dink and OB.
> Tanks size hardly mattered because fuel and water were so readily available in this region. Topping up the tanks was simply an inconvenience. But it enabled me to learn how to bring the boat along side.
> My ground tackle was rarely used.
> When I decided to sail south I made many changes
> electric windlass & 200' of chain, 30' nylon snubber
> watermaker
> SSB radio
> solar panels (on deck forward of dodger)
> new VHF
> Weatherfax
> Stand alone radar (MFDs didn't exist back then)
> Groco Model K toilet
> assorted interior cabinet modifications including teak grates for shower and cockpit sole
> cockpit cushions
> storm canvas
> secondary winches
> drogue, MOB gear
> liferaft
> lots of spares
> 
> 
> Cruising means you live with less than you might on dirt. I found that easy and sensible. Once the expensive fitting out was done (almost all DIY) living on board was not costly... fuel, water in the Caribbean and of course food. Anchoring is free. You eat the same amount of food no matter what the LOA of your boat is. You do consume more fuel the longer the boat is.
> I was never one to spend much on "entertainment" and so I didn't feel deprived on that score. On the other hand I met many interesting, helpful sailors which became my friends. "Tourism" was inexpensive... exploring the islands. I don't recall "fees" being high or memorable. That was in the 90s.... I am sure things have changed (cost much more).


All that stuff costs money and not counting it is an example of the "not counting" method of cruising cost reporting that falsely makes it look less.

Not ever doing any entertainment, dining and drinking out, may be for some. But to me that sounds like the difference between "living" and "being alive"

In my 69 months of cruising and getting documented cost records I have found that all low cost months are just a delay and are made up later. But if you only want to move every few months for short distances I am sure it can be done for less.

I reviewed my costs of the total of boat costs + Marina + boat insurance for or me is enough to pay for a $200k land house.

So the question becomes not whether you CAN live on a boat for some low cost amount, it is whether do you WANT to. If you do want to, and have for years, post some real long term cost info so people can see what it involved to be able to determine what that life is like.


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## Don L

Since I have 69 months of data that I can sort I wondered what my cost be if I applied some "not counting" (I am also going to post in a new thread on the crazy chance not playing on this might be interested)

If I do some "not counting" and include only the following categories:

General Living - Food, soda, alcohol, clothing, sundries, other
Boat costs - upgrades, repairs, maintenance
Fuel (diesel, gas, propane)
Fees
Water
Boat Registration
Boat Insurance
For my wife and I it averages out to $2,113/mo. the 69 months. If I take out boat "upgrades" I can get it down to $1,956/mo. If I then take out a guess for soda, alcohol, and "better" food I can get down to $1,458/mo.

So that is my "not counting" min and I wouldn't be posting this as I wouldn't have a cell phone for internet, but guess could wander around looking for a hotspot.

Now this leaves out:

Boat upgrades
Dining and drinking out
Communication, storage, shipping
Marina
Electric
Medical
Transportation and travel


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## MikeOReilly

I have no "not counting." My spouse and I live on a fixed income. We have done so since 2015. Last year it was exactly $23,254.95 CND, which translates to $17,915.92 USD (today). We have a small nest egg which we use to accommodate larger unexpected expenses. We are very conservative in drawing this down, but you can add a couple thousand to our annual expenditures.

THIS IS WHAT WE LIVE ON - That's it. There ain't no more. 

It's great that you have more, and live with more. But the point of this discussion is to help those of us who live with less to do so well. All you appear to be saying is, it can't be done. Obviously, this is not true.


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## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> But the point of this discussion is to help those of us who live with less to do so well. All you appear to be saying is, it can't be done. Obviously, this is not true.


Not saying that. I am saying to people like you to document it so it useful. Why can't you do this other than just not wanting to?


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## MikeOReilly

Don L said:


> Not saying that. I am saying to people like you to document it so it useful. Why can't you do this other than just not wanting to?


I don't want to. I have better things to do with my life than track and account for every $1. Great that you choose to do so, but not everyone is like you. As with most things in cruising, there isn't just one way to do things. There isn't just one way to make this useful. 

You've made your budget point (over and over), so how about offering something else to, as you say, make this useful to others.


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## MikeOReilly

Here's an obvious consideration these days; are you trying to motor less and sail more? I've never really thought much about fuel consumption, but with diesel prices skyrocketing like other fuels, I think I'll be making a more conscious effort to minimize the use of the engine.


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## Killick

MikeOReilly said:


> Here's an obvious consideration these days; are you trying to motor less and sail more? I've never really thought much about fuel consumption, but with diesel prices skyrocketing like other fuels, I think I'll be making a more conscious effort to minimize the use of the engine.


Yes, good point. I stopped watching one popular Youtube channel because if the wind drops below about 8 knots he takes the laundry down and motors. Motors for hours and hours, while he talks. 

I guess you cannot separate boat maintenance costs. When I read "$500 a month" I assumed that to be living expenses - food, clothing, medical, etc. - and I thought it was entirely doable if one opts for the cheaper Scotches and non-Cuban cigars (we all must suffer...) but if you roll boat costs in to that, then boat LENGTH is a huge, huge, (did I say huge?) mitigating factor as we all know and the differences between boat costs on a 32' versus a 42' boat are, well...very different.


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## Don L

Killick said:


> but if you roll boat costs in to that, then boat LENGTH is a huge, huge, (did I say huge?) mitigating factor as we all know and the differences between boat costs on a 32' versus a 42' boat are, well...very different.


Really? Do you have documented monthly long term numbers to show this or are you guessing?

I have documented record numbers. Last year a 31' boat instead of my 41' would have saved $528, Over the last 6+ years I calculate that the extra 10' of comfort adds about 3-3.5% to my total yearly costs.

Yes it costs more to maintain a bigger boat. But it is no where near "huge"


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## MikeOReilly

Killick said:


> Yes, good point. I stopped watching one popular Youtube channel because if the wind drops below about 8 knots he takes the laundry down and motors. Motors for hours and hours, while he talks.


Yeah... Some sailors I know have these arbitrary rules about when to start the iron genny. Like if the boat drops below 2 knots, or sometimes even more, then the engine comes on. Sometimes in a sloppy sea this is necessary, but if it's a calm day, I love ghosting along at a knot or two.



Killick said:


> I guess you cannot separate boat maintenance costs. When I read "$500 a month" I assumed that to be living expenses - food, clothing, medical, etc. - and I thought it was entirely doable if one opts for the cheaper Scotches and non-Cuban cigars (we all must suffer...) but if you roll boat costs in to that, then boat LENGTH is a huge, huge, (did I say huge?) mitigating factor as we all know and the differences between boat costs on a 32' versus a 42' boat are, well...very different.


Agreed. I've only run across a few people who seem to be able to live on so little. My spouse and I live on a modest amount -- and that includes counting everything -- but we're certainly higher than the mystical $500/month. I always view this as aspirational, not some necessary target. 

Boat size is an interesting factor. All things being equal, larger costs more; costs more to buy, costs more to outfit & equip, and more to house & maintain. But not all costs are linear. Having sailed with four boats, starting with a 22', then a 26', stepping up to a 34' and now a 37', I think costs kinda go in tranches. The difference between my 22-footer and my 37-footer was huge, but the difference between the 34 and the 37 wasn't that much.

And in some ways, larger can be more economical/frugal. I'm a fan of going with the smallest boat that fits your needs, but implicit in this is the fact one can go too small. To live frugally, I think one needs a boat with adequate living and storage space. It needs to be able to operate self-sufficiently for long periods. This allows you to stay off the dock, and away from financial seductions.


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## Killick

I will grant that if I had a bigger boat I would be able to carry enough food and water to be far more independant of the shore than I am now, so that is not an inconsiderable feature, and cuts in to the "economy" of a little boat, to an extent. My little 31' (and it's a small 31' boat) has a hard time holding enough stores, plus my collection of Hummel figurines.


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## MikeOReilly

Killick said:


> I will grant that if I had a bigger boat I would be able to carry enough food and water to be far more independant of the shore than I am now, so that is not an inconsiderable feature, and cuts in to the "economy" of a little boat, to an extent. My little 31' (and it's a small 31' boat) has a hard time holding enough stores, plus my collection of Hummel figurines.


It's all about finding that sweet spot between too big and too small. If I were a solo guy I'd definitely be looking at something in the 28 to 32 foot range. It's hard to generalize though, because specific boats really matter.

In my current case, I cruise as a couple. We live on our 37-footer. But like yours, ours is a small boat for its LOA. More accurately, it has a small living space. Where is shines is with its storage and tankage space. We typically outfit the boat for three or four months of cruising. And by that I mean not touching another dock for that time. We could pack in a year's worth of food. Our limitation would be water and fuel. For that we'd have to go in every three or four months.

This is one of the reasons I keep trying to talk myself into getting a watermaker. It's an expensive piece of kit, but it would remove one reason to come to a dock. Is it frugal though .


----------



## joethecobbler

MikeOReilly said:


> It's all about finding that sweet spot between too big and too small. If I were a solo guy I'd definitely be looking at something in the 28 to 32 foot range. It's hard to generalize though, because specific boats really matter.
> 
> In my current case, I cruise as a couple. We live on our 37-footer. But like yours, ours is a small boat for its LOA. More accurately, it has a small living space. Where is shines is with its storage and tankage space. We typically outfit the boat for three or four months of cruising. And by that I mean not touching another dock for that time. We could pack in a year's worth of food. Our limitation would be water and fuel. For that we'd have to go in every three or four months.
> 
> This is one of the reasons I keep trying to talk myself into getting a watermaker. It's an expensive piece of kit, but it would remove one reason to come to a dock. Is it frugal though .


I've had a water maker for years, and as I cruise the East coast USA, I find it's just an expensive piece of equipment that can get pricey quick! 
If I were to venture beyond the coast to remote island countries it might be more cost effective.
And as I aquired the water maker in a purchase that included 2 of them,I sold one at a considerable amount to pay for the other and purchase expected maintenance items for the one I kept, it owes me nothing.
And I could easily sell it.


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## joethecobbler

Frugality,imo, isn't so much constantly crunching numbers of what you've spent, because those pennies are gone!
It's ( again imo) about keeping a sharp eye and ear open and the ability to capitalize on situations that you can " get ahead" simply by being in the right place at the right time and conscious enough to " pounce" on an opportunity as it presents itself and profiting from that ability, over and again.
That, by my metric, would include frugal choices when any expenditures are contemplated. 
And the ability to understand what is impulse purchases and what is necesity.
I find that approach to living entertaining and rewarding.
I also understand many people don't share that enthusiasm and many ( most?) Probably wouldn't enjoy it.
But,then, I think amusement parks suck, and clearly,many don't!


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## Don L

frugal cruisers talking about watermakers

thats funny


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## joethecobbler

Don L said:


> frugal cruisers talking about watermakers
> 
> thats funny


I bought 2 katydin 40E 12 volt ro units with a bunch of pickling chemicals and 2 " rebuild" kits for $400.00 US, repaired the broken one and sold it for$1000 00 US , kept the other,and the other parts.
To me, finding and acting upon deals such as this is the opitomy of frugality.
And it sharpens your situational awareness of the next opportunity.
I believe the fixing/repairing mindset feeds the frugal/ simple living approach.


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## redgar

Hi Joe,



joethecobbler said:


> I believe the fixing/repairing mindset feeds the frugal/ simple living approach.


Jejeje.... or vice versa.  I've been living in a developing poor country for a long time now and that is how it works down here. Costa Rica is not nearly as poor as Cuba (or other Central American countries, for that matter) but lack of money and options has us repairing almost everything that up in the "developed" world would go straight in the dumpster on the way to the store to buy a new one. Especially out in the sticks. No big hardware stores, no corner Walmart. Something breaks and you had better fix it or prepare to do without.

Red


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## colemj

MikeOReilly said:


> This is one of the reasons I keep trying to talk myself into getting a watermaker. It's an expensive piece of kit, but it would remove one reason to come to a dock. Is it frugal though .


Watermakers are not frugal. No matter where you cruise in the world, buying water is always much less expensive than buying a watermaker. Forums, including this one, are full of people railing against watermakers (and the proponents of them) because they would have to operate them for 20yrs before they broke even with buying water. 

They are correct on that point.

It sometimes goes to the extent that people with "frugal" minimal output watermakers rail against proponents of high output ones on the non-frugal usage of water, and the extra cost and power usage to run them.

They are also correct on that point.

However, the entire purpose of a watermaker is not to save you money, or to even fit in some "frugal" mindset. It is to provide you with incredible convenience and a much higher quality of life aboard your boat. In some ways, it is even part of preventative maintenance, since those with good watermakers tend to fully wash down their boats after every sail, and once a week or so at anchor if it hasn't rained.

Being "frugal" and saving money up front on a tiny output watermaker is false frugality in the longer term. If you decide on a watermaker, get the largest output one you can support and fit. Think of your current water usage and double or triple it for sizing the watermaker. Even if it means adding another solar panel or running your suitcase generator a few extra hours a week. Focus your frugality on not getting bells and whistles like automatic operation, etc. By going larger than you think, you will either increase your quality of life with the extra water, or run it less often than a smaller one. Possibly both. These are good things.

Mark


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## MikeOReilly

joethecobbler said:


> I bought 2 katydin 40E 12 volt ro units with a bunch of pickling chemicals and 2 " rebuild" kits for $400.00 US, repaired the broken one and sold it for$1000 00 US , kept the other,and the other parts.
> To me, finding and acting upon deals such as this is the opitomy of frugality.
> And it sharpens your situational awareness of the next opportunity.
> I believe the fixing/repairing mindset feeds the frugal/ simple living approach.


If I ever get a watermaker, this is the one I'd love to get. My daily needs are small, and I want to make sure my passive chargers (solar/wind) will manage the load. The last thing I'd want to do is be forced into running the big engine, or the gas generator, just to make water. 

I agree with your view on being ready and willing to act on deals when they come around. It's a very Machiavellian* approach. It's why I say boats need to be large enough to manage independently for longish periods. It gives you leeway to act on good deals when they arise, or to ride out the unlucky times easier.

NOTE: people misunderstand Machiavelli. He was not evil or conniving. His philosophy was very much along the lines of being ready to act when fortune (Fortuna) swung your way.


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## MikeOReilly

colemj said:


> Watermakers are not frugal. No matter where you cruise in the world, buying water is always much less expensive than buying a watermaker. Forums, including this one, are full of people railing against watermakers (and the proponents of them) because they would have to operate them for 20yrs before they broke even with buying water.


Frugality is not just about money, and certainly not just about buying the cheapest thing. I think this is where people misunderstand the concept. Frugality encompasses values such as convenience, self-sufficiency, and more importantly, independence. In other words, a better quality of life.

This is why I struggle with this choice. I think a wm could be a useful fit to my frugal cruising life. At this point, I don't really need it. But if a really good deal came along on a 40E, and I had the cash, I'd jump at it.

With regard to going big on a WM, I see your point. I likely _would_ use more water if I had an unlimited supply. It's human nature to use more when you have more. But that's not exactly a positive, or particularly frugal, outcome. As it is, I know exactly what my water needs are. I have a flow meter which measures to the US gallon. We use a consistent amount. My needs are modest.

Since we know water is a limited resource on our boat, we use it wisely. But we do not skimp or limit our needs. We are simply very conscious of its use. A watermaker would likely remove some of this awareness -- which seems to be counter-frugal to me.

But I still want one


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## colemj

MikeOReilly said:


> If I ever get a watermaker, this is the one I'd love to get.


By every measure, that is the least frugal watermaker one could get. I know you won't believe this.

Mark


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## colemj

MikeOReilly said:


> Frugality is not just about money, and certainly not just about buying the cheapest thing. I think this is where people misunderstand the concept. Frugality encompasses values such as convenience, self-sufficiency, and more importantly, independence. In other words, a better quality of life.
> 
> This is why I struggle with this choice. I think a wm could be a useful fit to my frugal cruising life. At this point, I don't really need it. But if a really good deal came along on a 40E, and I had the cash, I'd jump at it.
> 
> With regard to going big on a WM, I see your point. I likely _would_ use more water if I had an unlimited supply. It's human nature to use more when you have more. But that's not exactly a positive, or particularly frugal, outcome. As it is, I know exactly what my water needs are. I have a flow meter which measures to the US gallon. We use a consistent amount. My needs are modest.
> 
> Since we know water is a limited resource on our boat, we use it wisely. But we do not skimp or limit our needs. We are simply very conscious of its use. A watermaker would likely remove some of this awareness -- which seems to be counter-frugal to me.
> 
> But I still want one


Even with a large watermaker, and pretty much unlimited water, our personal usage has not changed (showers, dishes, drinking, etc). However, we do use more water now because we do laundry whenever we want, we rinse down the boat after every sail, rinse the furling bearings and sails, regularly wash the cockpit and cushions of accumulated salt, rinse the anchor chain with fresh water after every retrieval, etc. This all helps with boat maintenance, and I view this use of more water as frugal.

Mark


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## MikeOReilly

Glad it works for you. Your needs are different than mine, and I know what mine are. But, _I know you won't believe this_.


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## Don L

My water use went up some with having a watermaker. Less than 10%, but still up. Currently the cost of the water made using it is sitting at around $2/gal. Definitely NOT frugal and it will take about 800 days of watermaker made water to get down to the frugal Bahamas water price of $0.50/gal. I would have to question anyone trying say having one is frugal as to what other frugal stories they are just spinning.


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## MikeOReilly

As I keep saying (not sure how to make this clearer...) frugality is NOT just about dollars. 

Everyone is different. If it doesn't make frugal sense to you, then that's fine. As I say, I don't think it makes sense for me right now. B if I were in a different area where water was harder to come by, or of questionable quality, or if my usage suddenly increased dramatically, or... all these factors could tip the scale the other way for me.

And if I came across an incredible deal on a unit, and I had the cash, I'd probably jump. It's not like they go stale .


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## colemj

MikeOReilly said:


> Glad it works for you. Your needs are different than mine, and I know what mine are. But, _I know you won't believe this_.


Look, I've owned and cruised with 4 different watermakers ranging from small output units, to energy recovery units, to large output AC voltage units. Feel free to discount my opinion and experience on that Katadyne 40E being about the worst choice one could make in a watermaker, as well as it failing to be frugal by any measure or meaning of that term. I was only trying to help you with that perspective. 

You also only know what your water needs are only when cruising a few months each year in Newfoundland. You have mentioned the possibility of extending your cruising grounds and cruising time. Feel free to discount my water usage experience from the past 19yrs going from cruising a few months each year in New England to full time cruising through the US E Coast, Bahamas, Caribe, South, and Central America. I was only trying to help you with that perspective.

Mark


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## colemj

MikeOReilly said:


> And if I came across an incredible deal on a unit, and I had the cash, I'd probably jump. It's not like they go stale .


You really need to do some research. Watermakers do go "stale" in terms of a limited shelf life on the membranes and seals. The Kadadyne membrane is a bespoke one that costs ~$400. Seals are also expensive. You would need an incredible deal on the unit just to break even with the cost of a new one when you were ready to use it.

But they are a bad choice wrt frugality - by all measures you wish to convey on that term. They are the least frugal choice one could make, even if given one for free.

Mark


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## MikeOReilly

I'm NOT discounting your experience. I only quote your own words back at you.

My experience is well laid out. Newfoundland now for up to 6 months per year. Before that, St. Lawrence and Great Lakes. My needs have remained consistent for going on two decades. But AS I SAID, if my cruising grounds change, so _might_ my water needs.

Thanks for the info on the seals etc. Like I said, it's not high on my radar right now. I have compared my needs to various options, and considered power consumption and my charging systems. Space on board my vessel is also a consideration.


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## MikeOReilly

Rain collection systems are probably more appropriate in a frugal discussion. Anyone want to show off what they've set up, or discuss how successful they've been. 

We've used the dinghy to collect rain water for showers. We've also refilled our tanks from a spring. While cruising Lake Superior, we would fill directly from the Big Lake (when I miscalculated and forgot to fill from land). I've always intended to set up a collection system using my sola-panel bimini.

Love to see what others have done.


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## Don L

This thread has been going on since back in the days I was just a weekend sailor that did a 1 or 2 week long cruises in New England. Now I have 5.5 years of full time cruising, no when near Mark Cole time and travels, but try to provide real numbers. In all this time the "frugal" cruisers never defined what their frugal costs are in a way to understand what they include. When I take out all of the things I consider as "unfrugal" I get nowhere near the claims made during the 8 years of this thread, but still am told how wrong I am. But since the naysayers refuse to post anything other than blanket claims there is no way to compare and adjust.

Now the frugal people are saying a watermaker is frugal even if those who have one say it isn't?? Is this for real?

The other day a frugal sailor responded on my "not counting" thread by basically responding he has only spent $40-60/week for food all year and nothing else. Come on, how believable is that?

Mike where have you cruised to? In all these years on 2 forums I only recall you ever posting having tried cruising once and that ended with an engine problem. Do you even "cruise" at all or do you really live on a boat part of the year? ( I wouldn't see these answers if any so someone please pass on to me if there is a real answer). Just what really is your experience with the costs of "cruising"?


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## colemj

Don L said:


> Now the frugal people are saying a watermaker is frugal even if those who have one say it isn't?? Is this for real?


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## colemj

MikeOReilly said:


> Rain collection systems are probably more appropriate in a frugal discussion. Anyone want to show off what they've set up, or discuss how successful they've been.
> 
> We've used the dinghy to collect rain water for showers. We've also refilled our tanks from a spring. While cruising Lake Superior, we would fill directly from the Big Lake (when I miscalculated and forgot to fill from land). I've always intended to set up a collection system using my sola-panel bimini.
> 
> Love to see what others have done.


A permanent or semi permanent rain catchment is a great thing to have even if you have a watermaker. It isn't great for just frugal reasons. A catamaran has it a bit easy here because most have a large hardtop bimini that can collect tremendous amounts of water quickly. I made the hardtop on our previous boat and incorporated a water collection system on it that was plumbed directly to our tank fill. If not filling the tank, all the water ran down a hidden pipe overboard. To collect water, just turn a valve and the water diverted through a filter system to the tank. During a hard rain, it could collect 100gal/hr. 

For cruising, it is best to develop a permanent or semi permanent system over an ad-hoc one like a tarp. It needs to be stable in squalls and not something you want to be scrambling around in the rain setting up, or tying lines all over the place, or counting on the dinghy. Permanent isn't always easy on a boat, but a good stable system that can be set up when anchored and stored later is useful.

Mark


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## MikeOReilly

Don... whatever  . As I said, there's no point engaging with you. All you do is repeat the same thing, over and over and over. Nothing has changed since before you or I left shore. Please, just move on.

Mark, sounds like a good system. Don't suppose you have any pics? I've been thinking about running some sort of trough along my solar panels. But space is tight on my system. 

And what about filtering? Did you run the water through any filter before going into the tank?


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## Don L

MikeOReilly said:


> Don... whatever  . As I said, there's no point engaging with you. All you do is repeat the same thing, over and over and over. Nothing has changed since before you or I left shore. Please, just move on.


Aren't you a hypocritic. I have repeated the same challenges to you all these years and you don't respond other than running or suggesting something wrong with me. Meanwhile I have put out every penny I spend for all to see. The last position you took was "my wife knows the numbers breakdown but I am not going to ask her and post it". 

I originally joined both SN and CF only to determine the costs. Turned out to be a waste of time, but was good enough to determine that the stories of low cost were made up stories far as long term. To date I still have not seen a true accounting of doing this "frugal", which means low cost as in low real money, really.

Near as I can determine from both research and my 5+ years of observation and talk with others out doing it full time is that a "tight" budget for a couple will no thrills or money spend on entertainment, travel, sightseeing, medical comes out to 

$2500/mo if they are cruising that involves regular/normal open water passages that will take more that just a rare overnight
$2000/mo if they are moving regular locally involving day trips
$1500/mo if they are anchored not moving, but semi maintaining their boat
$1000/mo if they are anchored not moving, the boat is falling apart
less than $1000/mo are anchored and the boat has fallen apart and is one issue away from abandonment

Now I will admit this only comes from my travels up/down the East coast from Maine to the Florida Keys, the Gulf to Mississippi and the Bahamas. In those travels it was easy to figure out which boats fit into each of those categories.


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## capta

It is definitely not as easy to cruise on a limited budget as it once was. Cruising permit costs are increasing, as are clearance and immigration fees. Fishing is getting harder by the year and many places are replacing anchorages with expensive, poor quality moorings.
At 6k a year outside the US, in the Caribbean and the EU, you'll be existing on rice and beans. Perhaps in South America, Africa and SE Asia you could live half decently on that, but the cheaper the cost of living the more you, as a "rich" American, become a target for those who can't feed their families.
Most countries rather frown on outsiders working, taking jobs from their citizens. Most likely, on your budget, you couldn't afford a work visa. For a local to sponsor you for a work permit, you'd have to be extremely skilled at something, which doesn't seem to be the case if you are trying to cruise on a shoe string budget.
I wish you luck, but cruising is not what it was in the '60s and '70s.


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## Don L

capta said:


> I wish you luck, but cruising is not what it was in the '60s and '70s.


$500 in 1960 is $4,937 today. When you read an old number you need to understand what it means today.


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## MikeOReilly

capta said:


> It is definitely not as easy to cruise on a limited budget as it once was. Cruising permit costs are increasing, as are clearance and immigration fees. Fishing is getting harder by the year and many places are replacing anchorages with expensive, poor quality moorings.
> At 6k a year outside the US, in the Caribbean and the EU, you'll be existing on rice and beans. Perhaps in South America, Africa and SE Asia you could live half decently on that, but the cheaper the cost of living the more you, as a "rich" American, become a target for those who can't feed their families.
> Most countries rather frown on outsiders working, taking jobs from their citizens. Most likely, on your budget, you couldn't afford a work visa. For a local to sponsor you for a work permit, you'd have to be extremely skilled at something, which doesn't seem to be the case if you are trying to cruise on a shoe string budget.
> I wish you luck, but cruising is not what it was in the '60s and '70s.


It does seem to be getting harder, but I wasn't cruising in the '60s & '70s, so I can't really compare those _good ol' days_ to today. As the saying goes, "these are MY good old days."

My cruising has been almost exclusively in Canadian waters so far, with a little time spent in the USA. Aside from needing a US cruising permit (forget the cost ... wasn't much) I haven't had to deal with all the administrivia costs. But once again, the whole $500/month thing was never meant to be a firm number. I certainly don't live at that level.

Living with less certainly is harder, although in some ways it can also be easier. No worries about what the stock market is doing, for example. And it's easy to manage the money since there's so little flowing around .


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## redgar

Mike,



MikeOReilly said:


> Rain collection systems are probably more appropriate in a frugal discussion. Anyone want to show off what they've set up, or discuss how successful they've been.


Practical Sailor had a nice article about rainwater collection and results of their tester cruising the in the Chesapeake Bay area supported almost entirely with rainwater for 1 year.

Practical Sailor - The Rain Catchers Guide​
Here are a few pics I've snagged from various rain catchment systems on sailboats. Obviously a suspended tarp won't work very well with much wind, but still many times in the tropics we get rain without a lot of wind:







​





​






--
Red


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## MikeOReilly

Thanks for the pics and ideas redgar. Looks very doable. Maybe having a fixed catcher system, and then one you can put out when possible, might be the best of all worlds. Gotta see what I can figure out...


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## joethecobbler

Since Sept 21 I've been "docked" at a Marina, the first time I've been sitting at a dock every day without any intention of leaving to sail.
The mast(s) are down and the interior of the main salon has been removed and all wood surfaces are being resurfaced, varnished etc, etc.
I'm in the middle of a "refit" which is a whole different story.
Anyway, I've spent all this time at a quiet little marina,am one of about 3 boats there,fresh water, electric, bathhouse, parking,less than 2 miles from where I work and currently sleep/ live. I moved off to make working the boat easier,and I own the building and business in which I am domiciling ( staying).
This was a planned operation.
I'm laying down the background.
The COST for the dock for the year, complete with tax and gratuity for a 32x10 cc sailboat with 4'draft is/was 
$480.00 US for the winter in water from September when I arrived till May.
And $832.00US for in water from may till oct/Nov. 
So $109.33 a month for a slip


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## joethecobbler

I've found it's cheaper for me to cruise, Willy nilly ,and dither around sometimes staying a day, week,a year than it is to be docked long term ( seasonally/annually).
If I wasn't stopped to effect some very involved maintenance issues and rigging replacement I could be bumming around the upstate NY canal system for absolutely $0.00 all summer !
No canal fees this year,and free dockage and often free water and electric at almost every town waterfront along the canal system from buffalo to Troy and north through Champlain!
So I'd save the $109.33 each month!
$500.00 a month, yup, I believe it's doable.
Just maybe not preferable.


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## colemj

MikeOReilly said:


> Mark, sounds like a good system. Don't suppose you have any pics? I've been thinking about running some sort of trough along my solar panels. But space is tight on my system.
> 
> And what about filtering? Did you run the water through any filter before going into the tank?


I don't have many pics because I never thing to take pics when I do projects. The only time anything gets documented is when Michele is around, but if it is fiberglass work, she goes as far away as she can get. The attached pic is the hard top under construction. Basically, I glassed PVC pipe around the edge of the hard top to act as collection edges (and to give something to grab onto when walking around. The hard top is camberd, so the water naturally flows to the lowest point on each side, where I installed drains and ran PVC pipe from those along the underside of the hardtop on each side to the back of the boat where the tank fill was located (one side crossed to the other). Then it was just a matter of a valve and filter housing.

Yes, after letting rain rinse the top for a while, all collected water went through a house filter canister with a 5uM filter.

Before this hardtop, we had a canvas top on the same frame. I got some vinyl gutters from the hardware store and mounted them underneath the frame below the gap where the canvas is lashed to the frame. Installed drains in the gutters and ran them back to the tank like described above.

These gutters are very inexpensive, and you might be able to do something with them along side your panels or other flat areas.

Mark

Edit: added pic


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## MarkofSeaLife

Yes, many think the Caribbean some haven for cheapies. Its not.

Grenada last year I found quite expensive for 2nd or 3rd grade quality food / services / everything. Much more expensive than the USA. on par with the EU.

It is very difficult to juggle budgets V philosophy, but one also needs to know that our values do change as we are out cruising for more and more years. One may change from Eco-Warrior fish-catching, rainwater catching, pot water from a creek and use 2 gallons of fuel per year.... But now I've been cruising for 15 years full time I am spending a little more on things I would have thought luxuries just a few years ago. Yes I will turn the engine on instead of tacking up-wind between islands; yes I go to proper restaurants with proper food rather than some bohemian street food/cholera bargain dump stinking of pot smoke; Yes I pay for water but I'd prefer to have an expensive water maker.

Yes I have drunk the muddy water off the muddy deck after a muddy tropical downpour and it was MUDDY!

Whats essential to know is that we are all individuals and one cannot second guess someone else, their budget, or their lifestyle. If I deem chocolate and essential part of my budget you don't get the right to tell me 70% cacao... 

😁😁😁

Mark


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## MarkofSeaLife

colemj said:


> Edit: for some reason, the site is not allowing me to post a picture.



Testing............









Where we are atm









The dingo that stalked our camp for 2 nights.
For those that don't think that looks like a dingo: Only 57% of pure bred dingos are orange. 11% are this colour.

Mark, are you on mobile, PC, Tapatalk, etc?
Can you try to post in Site Help and Suggestions | SailNet Community and we will sort it out.


Mark


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## colemj

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Mark, are you on mobile, PC, Tapatalk, etc?
> Can you try to post in Site Help and Suggestions | SailNet Community and we will sort it out.


On a mac laptop. It must have been a glitch in the matrix yesterday afternoon because it let me post the pic this morning.

Mark


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## MikeOReilly

colemj said:


> Before this hardtop, we had a canvas top on the same frame. I got some vinyl gutters from the hardware store and mounted them underneath the frame below the gap where the canvas is lashed to the frame. Installed drains in the gutters and ran them back to the tank like described above.
> 
> These gutters are very inexpensive, and you might be able to do something with them along side your panels or other flat areas.


Thanks for the pic, and for the ideas Mark. I think you've given me enough to get going with the plan.


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