# Making experienced sailors/boat owners get an ASA 104 to charter



## argold

Now experienced sailors and boat owners need an ASA 104 certificate to charter a bare-boat in Croatia. More destinations to come...

In the past I have bare-boated many destinations and needed no more proof of my abilities than my "Sailing Resume". Now I am told by The Moorings / Sunsail that I need ASA 104 certification to bareboat in Croatia. I asked around and it sounds like many other destinations will be enforcing this requirement in the near future.

I want to keep the costs and time down and I don't need a sailing school. We can use my Bavaria 38 Ocean Center Cockpit sailboat if we need to do an overnight demonstration (The ASA requirement calls for 48 hours). I haven't yet found anyone who can do that yet. The only thing I have found is a week-long course for $1200 and that does not include #101 and #103 (which I know I can test out of).

We only plan to bareboat for a week. If this gets too onerous or expensive I'm guessing that many boat owners like me will stop bare-boating and just sail in their home waters.


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## nolatom

They sky may not be falling. If sailors book chartering companies that don't put unnecessary certificates in the way of experienced sailors giving them money, then the "other" ones will have to follow suit. The market (we hope) will decide in the longer run.


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## jackdale

104 is recognized as the equivalent to an ICC. Find a school who can certify for an ICC.


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## jackdale

Disclaimer - I am an ICC instructor.

What Croatia wants is an International Certificate of Competence or an equivalent. ASA 104 is an an equivalent. ICC can be done an a day. Link to the requirements below.

http://www.sailing.ie/portals/0/icc/guide to the icc.pdf

In North America, International Yacht Training Schools / Instructor's can assess for ICCs.

https://iytnet.com/index.php?option...&action=categories&func=show&cat=1&Itemid=275

If you have any questions, feel free to ask away.


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## tempest

When I read your 1st post, I wondered, why ASA in Croatia? Why not any of the other recognized international standards. Or in your case a resume and maybe a checkout sail. 

I wonder if insurance claims, damages are the impetus?


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## jackdale

Tempest said:


> When I read your 1st post, I wondered, why ASA in Croatia? Why not any of the other recognized international standards. Or in your case a resume and maybe a checkout sail.
> 
> I wonder if insurance claims, damages are the impetus?


Croatia does recognize other international standards - unfortunately none Canadian. I got my ICC through IYT.

Check Resolution 40 for the background. http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2011/sc3wp3/ECE-TRANS-SC3-147-Rev1e.pdf


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## Capt Len

Jack, would a Canadian 60 ton ticket carry any weight?


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## jackdale

Capt Len said:


> Jack, would a Canadian 60 ton ticket carry any weight?


I do not know. But I will check.


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## jackdale

From the Croatian Ministry of Maritime Affairs, Transport and Infrastructure

Recognized certificates for operating boats and yachts.

http://www.mppi.hr/UserDocsImages/TABLICA ENGLISHMoU _2_ 19-8_14.pdf


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## argold

Jackdale, that was a very useful link.

So Croatia requires ASA or USSA certification.

What we need to know is are there schools or individual instructors who offer products (courses, checkouts, testing, whatever is needed) tailored to experienced boaters and boat owners? How much time would it take and what would it cost us?

That is the crux of the problem. Already I am beginning to feel like I have spent too much time at this just searching on the internet. I'm beginning to consider asking for my deposit back!


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## tempest

Argold, An ASA instructor can only offer a certification through a school. I'm guessing US sailing is similar. 

Based on your resume, You might want to call or visit the schools in your area to see if they would be willing to let you test out, (written portion) without going through the on-water classes. They could test you, at the same time they are testing a regularly scheduled class, so that it would not require additional time on their part. ( you might want to suggest that to them) 

They would incur fees for the exam and administration from ASA, but it's paperwork, so it could cost a lot less, since you don't need books or on water instruction. 

It's really up to the school owner, whether or not they'd want to do this as a courtesy.
I'd explain the situation and "ask them nicely" ( Jack Nicholson). It might take a few calls to get a yes; but, I don't see it as a big deal on their part. 

Good luck. If you strike out in Maryland, pm me. I can give you some contacts in N.J.


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## argold

Thanks Tempest:

It seems my lot in life to always be breaking new ground (if you knew me you would know what I mean). If the trend towards ASA/USSA cert. for bare boating continues, either schools will offer solutions or I can imagine the charter business taking a big hit.

I shall contact the local Annapolis schools. Maybe they will see me as ramp to a new product offering and give me a break. 

Are there any schools in Annapolis reading this thread?


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## Subaqua

We tested out of 101, so I know you can test out of at least that. We took the tests in order to charter in croatia/greece, but as Moorings owners, the cost was minimal through the Moorings.
I'm glad we took the courses.
I'm not an ASA school, but if you want the books for ASA.. I have an extra set ASA 101,103,104.. 40% off the going rate. I think they are like new.


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## Minnewaska

I will bet the charter companies are not crazy about this development either. However, I see more of it in the future, not less.


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## deltaten

*note to self*
DO NOT reserve charter or cruise in Croatia.


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## jackdale

deltaten said:


> *note to self*
> DO NOT reserve charter or cruise in Croatia.


Too bad, the coast there is stunning. I drove from Rijeka to Dubrovnik and back in 1972 (before I started sailing).

It is on my list.


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## DonScribner

I wonder what ASA certificates Joshua Slocum had been awarded.


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## Minnewaska

DonScribner said:


> I wonder what ASA certificates Joshua Slocum had been awarded.


If everyone had as little expectation for rescue as old Joshua, I bet there would be fewer cert requirements.


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## sailingfool

Tempest said:


> ...
> Based on your resume, You might want to call or visit the schools in your area to see if they would be willing to let you test out, (written portion) without going through the on-water classes. They could test you, at the same time they are testing a regularly scheduled class, so that it would not require additional time on their part. ( you might want to suggest that to them)
> 
> They would incur fees for the exam and administration from ASA, but it's paperwork, so it could cost a lot less, since you don't need books or on water instruction. ...


ASA tests include both a written exam and an on-the-water exam. If a school did accepted a challenge for an ASA 104 certification, the on-the-water exam would take most of a day, the cost of the instructor and vessel would likely be close to what you'd pay for the class...


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## CaptTony

Do I to understand this correctly? Even someone with US Merchant Marine masters ticket would not qualify to charter unless they acquired an ASA certification?


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## argold

Subaqua said:


> ... but as Moorings owners, the cost was minimal through the Moorings....


Do you mind my asking what the cost was?

If you do not want to say publically, you can PM me.

ARGOLD


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## argold

CaptTony said:


> Do I to understand this correctly? Even someone with US Merchant Marine masters ticket would not qualify to charter unless they acquired an ASA certification?


If you follow the link posted by Jackdale earlier:


jackdale said:


> From the Croatian Ministry of Maritime Affairs, Transport and Infrastructure
> 
> Recognized certificates for operating boats and yachts.
> 
> [Sorry, the URL had to be removed because I only have 8 posts so far and 10 are required to post a link. HAH!] Look back to jackdale's reply for the link


The only certs accepted from the USA are ASA or USSA. I wonder what kind of hoops you have to jump through to get a waiver.

I heard that these regulations have been around awhile but they are only nor being enforced.


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## tempest

sailingfool said:


> ASA tests include both a written exam and an on-the-water exam. If a school did accepted a challenge for ASA 104,t he on-the-water exam would take most of a day, the cost of the instructor and vessel would likely be close to what you'd pay for the class...


That's why..I Suggested that they could sit for the written exams with a regularly scheduled class. There's already a proctor scheduled. One more student taking a test is no big deal.

Yes, if you want you're own personal proctor..it will cost you.

The school has the option based on your resume, to forego the on-water testing. In my case, the owner needed to sail one of his boats to a marina for repairs and I sailed him there with him as a passenger.

i was then waived past the student courses and allowed to take the instructor clinics, it's doable. He had an interest in signing me up as an instructor. So he had some interest in helping me out.


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## argold

I'd happily pay for an on-the-water day at a reasonable hourly rate. That is all it should take. It sounds like I'll need to do the legwork to find a school willing to create a special program.

Here is an idea for schools; how does this sound?

The student does whatever prep work they want to, then goes to the school and takes (and pays for) the written exams one after the next until the student feels like they have gone far enough. After that (on another day) the student and the instructor spend a day on the water doing whatever the instructor asks. After that the instructor can rate the student as high as the instructor feels the student has demonstrated ability.

I don't know what the test fees are but what would be a reasonable per-hour rate for an instructor? This might be done on the student's boat (cheaper) or the school's boat (with an additional daily "rental fee").

Does that sound like a reasonable program for a school to offer?


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## tempest

instructor's are typically paid around $150 u.s. /day for basic courses. AFAIK, That fee hasn't changed in 15 years, which is one reason I gave it up. 

Gas went up, tolls went up, food went up, the IRS makes the schools send out 1099's which means instructors have to set up a business as an independent contractor..and pay double rate SS, income tax etc. 

I don't know what the admin fees are for the exams..part of that goes to ASA directly. 

You could probably get this done for $400.00. with a willing school owner.


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## argold

Yep, that is about what I thought. $50 an hour should be reasonable and I'd be willing to pay that - on top of the cost of taking the test. Any idea what that runs?


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## tempest

argold said:


> Yep, that is about what I thought. $50 an hour should be reasonable and I'd be willing to pay that - on top of the cost of taking the test. Any idea what that runs?


No, can't help you with admin costs. Maybe one of the active instructors on here has an idea.

If charter companies are going to enforce this requirement, these type of requests will only increase. So, as you say, you can be the test case.

These schools have to hustle for their money..especially in the North with a shorter season to work with. This could be an opportunity for them.


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## jackdale

argold said:


> The only certs accepted from the USA are ASA or USSA. I wonder what kind of hoops you have to jump through to get a waiver.


They will accept an IYT ICC from a school in the USA.


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## DonScribner

Minnewaska said:


> If everyone had as little expectation for rescue as old Joshua, I bet there would be fewer cert requirements.


And fewer younger and younger teenagers (male and female) trying to trace his steps, iridium phone and book deal in hand.


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## Don L

I don't remember getting any certificate when I did ASA 104. All I remember was a book with a stamp it that I have long ago lost. I haven't been a member of ASA since then and wonder how I would even prove I took the course now.


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## argold

O.K. All:

I just got a quote back from a local instructor-owned school.

To take the 101, 103, and 104 tests: $300 (set by ASA)
To do a 4 to 6 hour on-the-water checkout on my boat: $250.

So the total cost would be $550.
Time invested (not including reading up in advance of the test): 1 day

I'm wondering if that affects the way some folks would answer the poll associated with this thread.


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## danvon

"I don't remember getting any certificate when I did ASA 104. All I remember was a book with a stamp it that I have long ago lost. I haven't been a member of ASA since then and wonder how I would even prove I took the course now."

I thought that that the logbook/stamp WAS the only certificate ASA gave out. Have people been asked for something else? Also, I lost my logbook in a move years ago. Called the school it came from and they were able to get me a duplicate without any trouble.


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## davidpm

argold said:


> O.K. All:
> 
> I just got a quote back from a local instructor-owned school.
> 
> To take the 101, 103, and 104 tests: $300 (set by ASA)
> To do a 4 to 6 hour on-the-water checkout on my boat: $250.
> 
> So the total cost would be $550.
> Time invested (not including reading up in advance of the test): 1 day
> 
> I'm wondering if that affects the way some folks would answer the poll associated with this thread.


Seems like the guy is trying to do right by you.

By the way how much is the charter going to cost. The extra 5 bills is probably some medium small part of the total.

You would think that the charter company would accept invoices from the last dozen charters you paid for as proof you have done it before though.


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## Minnesail

I wonder if there's something about Croatia. I've heard two stories like this. One from an ASA teacher who gave a couple a crash course on their boat that they had owned for many years so that they could get the ASA stickers and charter the same model boat in Croatia.

And another from a women who had only been sailing a couple years, but had taken the ASA courses. She went to Croatia with a group of people and the intended skipper was an older gentleman who had been sailing over 50 years, but had no certification. She ended up being the skipper of record, because the charter company preferred her certification over his 50 years of sailing.


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## ScottUK

Chartered in Croatia with no bother, never asked nor showed credentials though I could have supplied them. Went through a smaller bareboat operator instead of a large operation, that might have something to do with it.


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## Uricanejack

DonScribner said:


> I wonder what ASA certificates Joshua Slocum had been awarded.


If I remember correctly. Joshua Slocum, was a US Master Mariner. had served as Master of several US merchant ships. 
I can't recall why he left this life and chose to sail away by himself.


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## Delezynski

We sailed the East coast of Maine and from Florida East Coast to the Bahamas.

We cruised FULL time for years aboard our own boat, from the San Francisco Bay area down the west coast into the Sea of Cortez, to southern Mexico. Then from New Orleans to Florida. 

If a place will not rent me a boat, I guess I don't need to go there.

Greg


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## Johnniegee

If I go somewhere with the intent to sped my hard earned and do not feel invited then place can KMA. I have had a fair amount of fun with that attitude.


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## jackdale

Remember it is not charter company making the rules. It is government authorities following the regulations under Resolution 40.


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## Delezynski

jackdale said:


> Remember it is not charter company making the rules. It is government authorities following the regulations under Resolution 40.


My objection to the "rules" stays the same. 
Who instigated them is not relevant to my decision.

Just sayan....

Greg


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## Minnewaska

I'm guessing that some of these new rules have been supported by the idea that anyone can put anything they like on their sailing resume, say they've lived aboard a lifetime, sailed everything made and the box it came in. No way to prove it. Successfully completing the course is independently verified.

Not saying I particularly like it. However, I have passed ASA104 and may even stand a chance of finding the logbook. I have a pretty good guess where it is hidden, but at the moment, no need.


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## argold

Now that I got quote for $550.00 and a day of my time to challenge ASA 104:

I'd like to hear from the folks following this thread if they would still answer the poll the same way: in other words, the third option: reasonable cost of time and money means $550 and a full day. 

Would it be worthwhile for you?

My thought is if this becomes prevalent in Europe, I may still be chartering there a few more times over the course of my life so I have decided go pay the money and take the tests - though I'm not particularly happy about it.


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## jackdale

argold said:


> Would it be worthwhile for you?


In my view - yes.

As an instructor I still have certifications through which I have to go. Recently, I acquired ASA certification through a cross-over from Sail Canada. However, Sail Canada does not have a catamaran course, and one of the companies with which I work is also a cat dealer and ASA school. I had experience prior experience teaching on both sail and power cats, but ASA insisted on me taking the course. I flew down to San Francisco to take the course. I cost me way more than $550 in total.

Not only did I get the certification, but the opportunity to work with an Instructor Evaluator and a group of other instructors provided me with some new knowledge and insights.

As an aside, I sometimes find that experienced self-taught sailors have some incredibility bad habits and are missing some knowledge and skills that get them into or keep them out of trouble.


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## Minnewaska

jackdale said:


> .......As an aside, I sometimes find that experienced self-taught sailors have some incredibility bad habits and are missing some knowledge and skills that get them or keep them out of trouble.


Not an aside at all. It's the crux of the matter, I believe.


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## tempest

Argold,

With your level of experience, and for that amount of money, you might want to consider taking the instructor clinics. You may have no desire to teach, but you may enjoy spending time with other sailors with your experience more. The instructor Evaluators are generally very good.

As Jack mentioned, there's always something to learn. You'd have to get a school willing to waive you past the student courses, but it's probably doable.

http://www.asa.com/pdf/asa-150rev3-14.pdf

I think most of the northern clinics are finished for the year, but you could combine it with a trip to Florida, this winter.


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