# Polars, PHRF, boat speed, boat shopping



## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

Why don't more manufacturers, or even more accurately, why doesn't the general public demand more information on boat performance? 

Since my current boat is rather slow, I've been shopping for a much faster boat. However determining speed performance has been nearly impossible. About the only rating common to most boats for comparison purposes has been PHRF, which seams to give some indication of performance but not much. SA/D doesn't seam to tell you much, as my current boat has a pretty good SA/D ratio, but is still pretty slow, even in light winds. 

A comment made to me by the manufacturer's rep concerning the Hunter Edge was that anything under 20 feet with a keel will be slow, however from what little bit I have seen, the Edge seams like it would be slow as well, even though it is a pretty long boat. But its difficult to know for sure. Why can't one find polars, or even some indication in the boat reviews, some sort of indication like on a beam reach, with ~10 knots of wind, the boat was moving X knots. Then what angle at a close reach does the speed really start to fall off. But no one ever seams to want to publish that. Beneteau seems to be about the only company that publishes polars, which seems very useful for shopping.

Last question, can one sail a water ballasted boat with no ballast in light winds? In other words, if the wind is under 10mph, or maybe even 8 mph, can one just leave the ballast out, and make the boat perform much better, or even partial ballast? In theory, an adjustable ballast would be very desirable if it worked.

( I started looking at tirmorans, but they are all way out of my budget league)


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Daveinet said:


> Why don't more manufacturers, or even more accurately, why doesn't the general public demand more information on boat performance?


Most people don't care all that much. If the opening shot in an advertisement is a boat's interior--common to Hunter's--performance isn't the selling point. Some class and owner's associations compile Polars.



Daveinet said:


> ...Last question, can one sail a water ballasted boat with no ballast in light winds? In other words, if the wind is under 10mph, or maybe even 8 mph, can one just leave the ballast out, and make the boat perform much better, or even partial ballast? In theory, an adjustable ballast would be very desirable if it worked.


Yes


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I haven't even found a boat that comes with a decent owners manual. I believe that boat manufacturers don't even know the basics, let alone all the customized commissioning that is commonly done.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Daveinet said:


> Why don't more manufacturers, or even more accurately, why doesn't the general public demand more information on boat performance?
> ...


You can ask and if they think you are really interested in the boat they should provide you with a boat polar and a stability curve. If they don't its because they don't want (the designer should have made both) and that is a bad sign, if you are interested in a fast boat.

What is the size of boat you are looking and your budget?

Regards

Paulo


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## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

PCP said:


> What is the size of boat you are looking and your budget?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Size limits are to what is trailer-able. Budget should be limited to around $10K used. In theory, I could go much higher on budget if the sailing concept was more palatable to the rest of the family. In other words, I could afford more, but for something that only I enjoy, it should not consume that high of a % of available funds. DW sort of got interested in the concept of a power sailor because she does not like to be so dependent on something so fickle as the wind. But if it is a dog under sail, what is the point? Anything moving less than ~4.5 knots gets pretty boring for the rest of the family. Trimoran could be perfect, but way beyond the budget unless I got real lucky. Boat needs to have at least a cabin where one can sit fully upright. (not that I was interested, but a Capri22 cabin is too short)

I had been previously interested in the smaller Beneteau's Firsts, but after seeing a larger First at a show, I was very unimpressed with the quality of the interior. Don't have enough experience about boats to judge the exterior and rigging, but if the interior construction was any indication, I was disappointed. Was made like a cheap RV.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Daveinet said:


> Size limits are to what is trailer-able. Budget should be limited to around $10K used. ...
> 
> ...


The only one I know that comes close to that price (new) is the Varianta 18.

Varianta Segelyachten - from Dehler with love

It is made by Dehler, now Hanse group and is sold exclusively by internet.

It is a fast and amusing boat that has made a big success in Europe for its Price/Performance.

I don't know if Hanse is going to import it for the States.


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## MarkCK (Jan 4, 2009)

It's a shame that you can't find a multihull in your price range. That seems to be the answer to all of your problems.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Daveinet said:


> Why don't more manufacturers, or even more accurately, why doesn't the general public demand more information on boat performance?


Most people don't care much about this as said previously, so the manufacturers generally don't have the numbers.



> Since my current boat is rather slow, I've been shopping for a much faster boat. However determining speed performance has been nearly impossible. About the only rating common to most boats for comparison purposes has been PHRF, which seams to give some indication of performance but not much. SA/D doesn't seam to tell you much, as my current boat has a pretty good SA/D ratio, but is still pretty slow, even in light winds.


SA/D is just one of many factors that goes into determining how fast a boat is. If two boats have the exact same SA/D but one is a longer, more modern design with a high-aspect bulb keel and high-aspect mast and sail plan, and the other is a shorter, full keel with gaff rig, the first is going to be a lot fast that the second because it will have a longer waterline, less underwater drag, and a more efficient sail plan.



> A comment made to me by the manufacturer's rep concerning the Hunter Edge was that anything under 20 feet with a keel will be slow, however from what little bit I have seen, the Edge seams like it would be slow as well, even though it is a pretty long boat. But its difficult to know for sure. Why can't one find polars, or even some indication in the boat reviews, some sort of indication like on a beam reach, with ~10 knots of wind, the boat was moving X knots. Then what angle at a close reach does the speed really start to fall off. But no one ever seams to want to publish that. Beneteau seems to be about the only company that publishes polars, which seems very useful for shopping.


Manufacturers often don't generate polars. Also, polars are a bit subjective. If you have a lousy sailor, the polars generated by the boat will be quite different that those by an excellent sailor. There are a lot of variables in how fast you can get a sailboat to move, beyond its design. The skill and quality of the captain and crew matter a lot, unlike on power boats. So does the maintenance of the hull cleanliness, etc.



> Last question, can one sail a water ballasted boat with no ballast in light winds? In other words, if the wind is under 10mph, or maybe even 8 mph, can one just leave the ballast out, and make the boat perform much better, or even partial ballast? In theory, an adjustable ballast would be very desirable if it worked.


No, you really don't want to do that. There are serious risks involved and there's also a good chance that your insurance won't cover you if you capsize the boat and damage it with empty or partially empty water ballast tanks.



> ( I started looking at tirmorans, but they are all way out of my budget league)


Too bad, they're great boats, but my opinion might be a bit biased.


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## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

sailingdog said:


> Too bad, they're great boats, but my opinion might be a bit biased.


It may actually be your fault I started looking more seriously at them. Some post you made on another thread in contrast to a power sailor, suggesting a trimaran which if properly power would go just as fat as the power sailor or on a windy day, go that fast anyway. Just got me kind of thinking about my goals and the best way to achieve them. That and multi-hulls being familiar territory with the HobieCat. That may be some of the reason for the disappointment with my current boat.



> SA/D is just one of many factors that goes into determining how fast a boat is. If two boats have the exact same SA/D but one is a longer, more modern design with a high-aspect bulb keel and high-aspect mast and sail plan, and the other is a shorter, full keel with gaff rig, the first is going to be a lot fast that the second because it will have a longer waterline, less underwater drag, and a more efficient sail plan.


And that is the reason for the discussion, trying to really determine what to look for in a boat that you want to be fast. Even from you comments, I would not know the B235 was that much faster than the Hunter Edge.

I'm really amazed more people don't care more about speed. Its that effortless forward motion that makes sailing relaxing. If the boat always feels like its struggling to move, your brain struggles too. I remember the very first boat I ever road on as a kid. It was a large under powered cabin cruiser that struggled against the waves. I remember hating it, because the motor working hard, made me work hard. Later learned to sail on lightweight fast dingies and found it very relaxing as there was no effort. The boats just glide along. The cat does the same thing and just effortlessly glides along. My current boat just feels like I'm trying to sail a bowling ball. I've been on some larger boats that were nearly the same way, not as bad as my boat, but never got that gliding feeling either.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Why can't one find polars,"
BECAUSE THEY COST MONEY. You can in fact have any boat measured and have polars (a VPP profile) run on the boat, if you want to pay for it. And racers regularly DO pay for it.
But the pikers in the mass market only want to know that this boat costs $19,995 and can be financed for $299 a month, while that other boat costs, ooh, $20,495 and $319 a month, and that's way more money, way too much.
So they buy the cheaper boat and who cares about all those confusing NUMBERS on the POLARS?

That's reality in any mass market, Dave. Get used to it. You want facts, you want numbers, you don't want to buy what the nice man in the shiny suit is best for you? You're gonna have to spend money and do homework, because you're bucking The System and they won't stand for that.

You want a fast boat? That's easy to find. Go racing. Go hang on a committee boat and work with the RC, every one of them needs and welcomes help. See which boats are winning, see which boats have one design (OD) classes. See which boats are part of the "sail of the month club" where the owners buy new sails every month to keep their competitive edge. (Nice if you have the wallet for it.)

But don't expect the guys who are in the business strictly to make a profit, to make your life easy. They'd rather sell you the wrong boat four or five times than sell you just one. There's no money to be made in selling just one.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> But don't expect the guys who are in the business strictly to make a profit, to make your life easy. They'd rather sell you the wrong boat four or five times than sell you just one. *There's no money to be made in selling just one*.


Sure there is, but there's a lot more in selling four or five boats.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

define trailerable? Retracting keel is what will make all the difference. And how fast do you want it? Got a PHRF # for your 'dream boat'?


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## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

Yah, a Hobie 33 with a raised cabin roof, but also too expensive. My point reference was the Beneteau 235, which has a PHRF around 200 depending on who you ask. The only reason it is a point of reference is because the do publish polars for their boats, so I at least know what to expect. I surely would not want anything higher/slower than that. After seeing some of these trimarans, I struggle to keep looking at monohulls, but that is where my budget is. 

Trailerable to me means 8.5' wide, and can be put in without a crane. Weight is not much of an issue, although typically that would make the boat slower. I would target somewhat of a length limitation, because I would expect to tow it behind a 31 foot motorhome. 65' total is the max length for towing. Longer would not totally rule out anything, as I can always tow it with the Jeep if I had to.


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

Melges 24 PHRF 81


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

I guess you missed the part about under 10k.

Try the Fun 23
FUN 23 Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com

Dave, the total tow length need to be under 61'? How does the mast measure in that computation?


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

svHyLyte said:


> Most people don't care all that much. If the opening shot in an advertisement is a boat's interior--common to Hunter's--performance isn't the selling point. Some class and owner's associations compile Polars.
> 
> Yes


Another reason why the information that you are referring to is not often made available is that the publications that would be likely candidates to publish it depend on advertising from those manufacturers to continue to exist. Not just performance information -- when was the last time you read a really poor review of a boat in a sailing or yachting magazine?


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## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

zz4gta said:


> I guess you missed the part about under 10k.
> 
> Try the Fun 23
> FUN 23 Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com
> ...


The mast could probably go above the back of the motorhome if need be, the motorhome is low profile, so plenty of height above it. Trailer length from ball to the motor should be under 33 feet, although if the motor weighs less than 100 lbs, I could always pull it off. I've never heard of anyone getting pulled over for exceeding maximum length in a motorhome + trailer, but I should try to be close enough that no one would bother me.



> ...Not just performance information -- when was the last time you read a really poor review of a boat in a sailing or yachting magazine?


I read a review of the Imus power sailor. The comment in the review just causally mentioned they had a wind of 8 knots and were sailing along at around 4 knots, which they thought that was very good. Good or not, they got away with making the statement. As long as it is contextualized as a positive, they should be able to get away with it. Bike and car magazines give zero to sixty times. Of course that caused the bikes to get very competitive.


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## kpgraci (May 13, 2010)

Daveinet said:


> In other words, I could afford more, but for something that only I enjoy, it should not consume that high of a % of available funds.


Souds like a resonable way to think about it, but I use a different formula.

Amt_to_spend_on_boat = ((available_funds * 15%) / (wifes_opposition - husbands_nagging_tolerance_factor))

But then math was never my strong point.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

You'll be limited a bit with a mast height of 30' unless you put it on the motor home. The outboard shouldnt' weigh in more than 60 lbs and you don't want to trailer it with the motor on the back anyway. Throws the weight off, especially on small boats. 

You still haven't given an explaination on what you define as "fast". Are we talking Colgate 26 'fast' at 156 PHRF, or are we talking TP52 fast at -87? Or are you talking as fast as you can get for 10k? Define your limiting factors better and we can help you more.


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

And what are you going to use this boat for? You mention you want a cabin with full sitting headroom. Some of the really fast boats won't have that.



> About the only rating common to most boats for comparison purposes has been PHRF, which seams to give some indication of performance but not much.


PHRF numbers are given time differences in seconds per mile with the base boat apparently being the 12-meters once used to race for the America's Cup (e.g. that's "0"). In other words, a boat that has a PHRF rating of 180 would be about 3 minutes per mile slower than a 12, on average. Of course, there are a lot of problems with single number rating systems like this - are we talking upwind, downwind, on a reach; strong wind, light wind, or nice moderate breeze. In addition, the system really doesn't work well at quantitative comparison across wide ranges. E.G. we know a 0-rater will be a lot faster than a 180-rater, but will it really be exactly 3 minutes per mile? The system works better for comparing boats that are more similar to each other.



> SA/D doesn't seam to tell you much, as my current boat has a pretty good SA/D ratio, but is still pretty slow, even in light winds.


What do you define as a "good" SA/D ratio?

What you really want is a ratio of sail area to wetted surface area, unfortunatley few people really know the wetted surface area quantitatively. Qualitative comparisons are relatively easy, though.

But there are other factors besides just sail area, like rig height, that are also important.

Other than having an opportunity to sail on a bunch of different boats in different conditions, I think PHRF numbers are probably going to be the next best way to get a sense of the relative performance of a selection of boats. In other words, look for boats that meet your criteria: under 10K, fit on trailer, launchable without a hoist, cabin with sitting headroom, and then you can start to filter your list by PHRF....


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## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

> What do you define as a "good" SA/D ratio?


 My boat is like 25, which is suppose to be in the "race" category, which I find hard to believe by its lack of speed. Even running a 30% larger full batton main, to me it seems slow, but in light wind, I ran down a Cat 22, which I was a bit surprised at.



zz4gta said:


> ...You still haven't given an explanation on what you define as "fast". Are we talking Colgate 26 'fast' at 156 PHRF, or are we talking TP52 fast at -87? Or are you talking as fast as you can get for 10k? Define your limiting factors better and we can help you more.


Sorry, its hard to define, as speed and excitement tend to go hand in hand. The goal is excitement, not necessarily a specific speed, although I would expect to sail 5 - 6 knots any time I take the boat out. Most of the time winds around here are 5 to 10. Sailing style will be to go out and come back, not necessarily to make it to a destination, so if the boat is a little slower on some points of sail, that would not be all bad. Most of the time I would be sailing on a small lake, less than 1000 acres, although sometimes would be out on the Great Lakes.

As fast as I can afford? Kind of, but if the boat is too slow, what would be the point in upgrading from what I have now? That is the real crux of where I'm at. Its really a matter of how patiently do I wait for the right deal and how do I know its the right deal if I stumble on it. That is where the PHRF comes in, but it can be difficult to find ratings on some boats. Should I really just be waiting for a multi-hull and then it has to be the right multi-hull, to have some interior space. If Farrier had been making the F22 for the last 20 years, I could have some luck stumbling on one. The privately built ones are soo expensive. All I can do is drool.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

So you want a boat that can sail at 0.8 to 1.0 times the speed of the true wind, that has a retractable keel, is under 24', has sitting head room, and under 10k ready to sail. 

Do you realize that in 10 kts of breaze that means you're traveling at 8 kts of boat speed? You're not going to get that kind of performance out of 10k bucks. 

What do you sail now? There are 3 boats in your sig. What other boats have you sailed that you appreciate their performance? Sounds like you want a boat that can plane, and most planers aren't going to have much room below.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A friend of mine used to say about buying boats, you have SPEED, COMFORT and PRICE... pick the two that are most important to you and the last will drop or rise accordingly.

If you want FAST and COMFORTABLE....it's gonna cost you.

If you want FAST and INEXPENSIVE, you're not going to be too comfortable...

And, if you want COMFORTABLE and INEXPENSIVE, you're not going to go very fast.



zz4gta said:


> So you want a boat that can sail at 0.8 to 1.0 times the speed of the true wind, that has a retractable keel, is under 24', has sitting head room, and under 10k ready to sail.


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

Why do you need an interior on a 1000 acre lake?

Doesn't your Hobie Cat give you excitement?

Maybe you should be looking at foiling moths?

Or DN ice boats...


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## Argyle38 (Oct 28, 2010)

How handy are you? It almost sounds like nothing but a multi is going to fit your needs, but they are more expensive, at least when they are in good condition. 

You might be able to find something that needs some work. Have it surveyed to make sure it's not ready to break in half, fix it up yourself and you might be able to get to where you want to be.

Good luck.


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## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

zz4gta said:


> What do you sail now? There are 3 boats in your sig. What other boats have you sailed that you appreciate their performance? Sounds like you want a boat that can plane, and most planers aren't going to have much room below.


That is probably the best way to answer the question. I have sailed a Tartan 10, which for a big boat, I remember sailing very well speed wise. Truthfully, the only thing preventing me from looking seriously at one is the 9+ foot width and the permanent keel. Its bigger than I need, but could really be OK if it was trailerable. I also sailed in a Mac, I think it was ~25 footer. I remember it being kind of slow.

I guess, my descriptions are coming in halfway through the story. The absolute needs are:
Trailerable
Cabin with head - I have digestive issues that can require an immediate solution, no time to sail back to a shore. 
Looking for:
Speed
Family friendly
The speed and family friendly go somewhat hand in hand. The rest of the family is not as patient is I. The desire for a cabin is more height than over all space, as one does need to live down there, but you need to be able to nearly stand up to get your clothes/suit back on after using the head. I get into a delicate balance of desires here, as the DW has perceptions about what she would be willing to spend money on - spend a bunch of money and can't even sit up in the cabin? - that may not go over very well.

I would view the Beneteua 210 or 235 look almost - maybe - kind of marginally OK. They are rated to do 6.5 knots in a 10 knot breeze. The problem is then comparing to other boats. The PHRF is between 190 and 210. So how much slower is a boat that is rated between 240 and 250? Will I notice that much difference?

The Hobie was great speed wise, but was a little small for 4 people, and not porta-potty ready. I don't sail it any more, one of the pontoons was damaged and repaired by someone else and it no longer sails right. The repair added a bunch of weight. So it is just a yard ornament. The phantom is a project boat, with hopes to be used for a 100 acre lake and to tow behind my motorcycle.

There have been some suggestions here, but it is difficult to compare, as I could not find any ratings for most of the boats given.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Dave—

Get a copy of Steve Henkel's book, The Sailor's Book of Small Cruising Sailboats, which discusses about 300 boats under 28' LOA. He's got a few lists in the back of the book about what boats would be best suited to certain purposes. While I don't agree 100% with his conclusions, it'd at least give you an overview of what choices of boats you might have.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I think your going to be disappointed as the Beneteua 210 or 235 doing 6.5 knots in a 10 knot breeze is a NOT gonna happen as we have some in the race fleet here and while there competitive with other boats at that rating they have to sail in the last start and go 1/2 the distance to not hold up the race committee 

My J24 at 174 is hard pressed to make than kind of speed and a 35' i sail on with a 117 will make that just happen with a LOT of work and a big sail inventory


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

tommays said:


> I think your going to be disappointed as the Beneteua 210 or 235 doing 6.5 knots in a 10 knot breeze is a NOT gonna happen as we have some in the race fleet here and while there competitive with other boats at that rating they have to sail in the last start and go 1/2 the distance to not hold up the race committee
> 
> My J24 at 174 is hard pressed to make than kind of speed and a 35' i sail on with a 117 will make that just happen with a LOT of work and a big sail inventory


The Bene 235 has a LWL of 20.25' and a theoretical hull speed of 6.03 Knt per Beneteau. One might be able to get the boat to do 6.5 knots or more but that would be surfing down a wave front, off the wind, with an apparent wind of 10 knots. Frankly, in the size range you're looking at, you aren't going to be roaring around in anything that will also have the accomodations you desire.

FWIW...


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## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

Argyle38 said:


> How handy are you? It almost sounds like nothing but a multi is going to fit your needs, but they are more expensive, at least when they are in good condition.
> 
> You might be able to find something that needs some work. Have it surveyed to make sure it's not ready to break in half, fix it up yourself and you might be able to get to where you want to be.
> 
> Good luck.


Certainly part of the equation, although I don't want to much of a project, I'd rather be sailing it.



sailingdog said:


> Dave-Get a copy of Steve Henkel's book, The Sailor's Book of Small Cruising Sailboats, which discusses about 300 boats under 28' LOA...


Thanks Google has it online, so I can start reading it tonight.



tommays said:


> I think your going to be disappointed as the Beneteua 210 or 235 doing 6.5 knots in a 10 knot breeze is a NOT gonna happen as we have some in the race fleet here and while there competitive with other boats at that rating they have to sail in the last start and go 1/2 the distance to not hold up the race committee
> 
> My J24 at 174 is hard pressed to make than kind of speed and a 35' i sail on with a 117 will make that just happen with a LOT of work and a big sail inventory


Good info. From what I have heard/read, they take a lot of tweaking to get any serious performance out of. That's why that has been a marginal consideration. I've read a lot of complaints regarding the PHRF for that boat. Thanks.


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## mikehoyt (Nov 27, 2000)

Dave

The S2 7.9 has good performance and PHRF around 170 and is trailerable. You may be able to find one to fit your budget but will be tough. The S2 6.9 will definitely fit your budget and has PHRF approx 204. S2 boats have good performance and these two seem to have some interior as well. With retractable dagger boards they are designed for trailer launch.

Mike


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Good call on the 7.9. There's one around here that rates 168 and cleans house. Definitely doesn't look as fast as it is.


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## catamount (Sep 8, 2002)

If you can't find PHRF ratings for the boats you are looking at, it suggests that those boats are not raced in handicap fleets, which in turn implies that either they are raced one-design, or they are slow...


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

I think I know some of the dilemma that Dave is feeling. 
Having flown the spinnaker on a racing Lightning and watching while it gets up on a plane and everything speeds up or getting a beach cat to fly one hull or windsurfing or even getting a Sunfish or Laser up on a plane is a unique and thrilling experience that you don't get with a keel boat. About the closest you can come in a keel boat is flying the spinnaker and even then you may just be pushing beyond the theoretical hull speed. 
All boats are compromises as has been eloquently stated. A big compromise that Dave seems to be asking for is trailerable, relatively fast and room for at least a porta-potty. With these constraints in mind I'd suggest you look at the MacGregor 26 "S" model sailboat (this is not the motor/sailor model).
The Mac 26S is water ballasted (which helps make it easier to trailer), has a rather large cabin or 'tween decks with room for an enclosed porta-potty and will sail faster then my old full keeled Tartan 27'. The Mac 26S is not up to handling some of the weather my T27 can take but it would make a much more family friendly sailing camper then my T27. People have been known to at least partially drain the ballast to push the speed envelope which should be done realizing that you are compromising the intended use of the boat. 
Another observation of the Mac 26S is that it usually comes with a very small jib which keeps the boat from being more tender then it can be. I have not tried this yet on my friends Mac 26S but you could get a bigger jib for light wind days. I'd just suggest you look at this boat and get a sail on one if you can.
To get that planing dinghy feeling in a bigger boat is going to require some bigger bucks and will not be a trailerable boat. 
If speed is that big of a deal to you then you should consider some of the multi-hulls that are available but few will be in your price range. Most boats with a cabin big enough for a porta-potty will not readily get up on a plane.
All boats are compromises.


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## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

Up and down on the S2. At first glance it started to look pretty good. Like the cabin layout, even though I probably won't use it much. Its bigger than I need, but OK. Watched several videos of it sailing, even in light winds, it still seemed to move. Then discovered beam is 9 feet. Whoops, I don't want to have to get a permit every time I sail the thing. Well, a little more reading and seems everyone ignores the permit requirement for over width. Hmm, well something to think about. Is it only the early ones with an inboard diesel or just a rare option?


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## Brettms (Oct 8, 2009)

Dave,
You raise some good questions. I've been doing some club and PHRF racing for the last two years and have come to some conclusions. First of all, boats are like autos and airplanes. There are lots of different models that each serve best for lots of different purposes. The clubs I've sailed with have a good mix of fixed and moveable keel, monohull boats under 32'. These include Catalinas, my Pearson, several Hunters including a 27 Edge and a wide variety of older and newer MacGregor boats.

I have to say from observation the consistently most nimble and best racing performers of the bunch have been what's called the MacGregor 26"D". The "D" is for daggerboard and I believe the particular model was built only around 1987-1989. They come available from time to time in the $5,000-6,000 asking range with a motor and trailer. They are lightweight, even with 1200 lbs of ballast water and seem to be among the easiest to launch. The best of them locally, consistently runs first or second place in the non-spinnaker racing against some well equipped, experienced competition.

With that said for the 26D, it is a pretty bare bones boat. It has some bunks and room for a porta-head with a fair cabin. The real importance of its water ballast apparently is self-righting in a knockdown. I'm told without the ballast its a bit like balancing on the top of a ping pong ball.

The later MacGregors, 26S, 26X and 26M are heavier and are more multipurpose powersailers. The heavier still (with similar sail area to the 26M) 27 Edge is a first rate floating hotel. None of these seem to sail exceptionally well especially to windward in light wind conditions. The 26Ds seem to point up very well, especially with good sails. The earlier Venture 21, 23 and 25s don't have the performance of the 26"D".

I've seen very few polars for boats under 30' and suspect actual performance would vary a lot based on configuration and sail condition.

Hope this helps.


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## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

> The best of them locally, consistently runs first or second place in the non-spinnaker racing against some well equipped, experienced competition.


 Is this PHRF or first and second over all?


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## Brettms (Oct 8, 2009)

Last year, he consistently placed second in PHRF SD Class 6B behind a Catalina 27 with some very expensive sails and experienced crew. In the local club races where the Catalina doesn't sail, he's finished first on corrected time in 22 of the last 25 races. Some of the other 26"D"s aren't far behind him and I think were the only ones to beat him.

P.S. I misspoke earlier, the 26S is not a "powersailer". It uses a swing keel instead of the daggerboard.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Brettms said:


> Last year, he consistently placed second in PHRF SD Class 6B behind a Catalina 27 with some very expensive sails and experienced crew. In the local club races where the Catalina doesn't sail, he's finished first on corrected time in 22 of the last 25 races. Some of the other 26"D"s aren't far behind him and I think were the only ones to beat him.
> 
> P.S. I misspoke earlier, the 26S is not a "powersailer". It uses a swing keel instead of the daggerboard.


The only MacGregors that are "hybrid powersailers" are the 26x and 26m, the rest of the MacGregors are fairly traditional sailing craft. The size of the outboard gives the 26X/M away as a hybrid...since they often have a 50 horsepower engine or so, rather than the 4-9.9 found on most all the other MacGregors.


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## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

i just looked up the mac I had previously sailed, and discovered it was the 26. I recall it had a center board, so it must have been the 26S. I do remember it being a little on the slow side. The rudder comes out of the water a little prematurely, so you loose steering when healed. Boy I hope he doesn't frequent this forum. You comment had been that it sailed well within its PHRF, but the PHRF is still pretty high, which means it would be slow compared to other boats. I'm not looking for a boat to race, just looking for a boat to be sporting and fast. From previous comments, someone suggested the Beneteau was slow, but I have heard of a 235 running down Cat 27, which is what just beat the Mac. All that is consistent with each of their PHRF. The S2 might be still at the top of the list for monohulls.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

lots of boats out there rate faster, much faster, but finding one that is 8' wide with a retractable keel/centerboard is the tricky part. 

My Merit, the S2, the J24 all good boats but just outside the trailerable boat requirement. 

Have you looked at the Merit 23, it rates 195 and comes with in a CB model.


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## rgesner (Dec 14, 2011)

Brettms said:


> Dave,
> The later MacGregors, 26S, 26X and 26M are heavier and are more multipurpose powersailers.
> Hope this helps.


WRONG on the 26S. It is almost exactly the same as the 26D, except it has a swing-up centerboard (hence the "S") while the 26D has a daggerboard. The S and D are sometimes collectively referred to as the 26C (C for Classic, to distinguish these older models which actually sail pretty well from the lumbering X and M models).

Two advantages of the S over the D are:
1. The centerboard and rudder kick up safely in the shallows and minimize or eliminate damage from unexpected shoals or obstacles. 
2. You can swing the centerboard back a few degrees to adjust balance for weather helm.


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## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

Since one has decided to wake an old thread, I'll respond and say, I am still shopping. Lately I've been looking for an RL 24. Seems to fit most requirements, and from everything I have read, it appears to sail well. Also was looking at a Holder 20, but I've not been able to confirm the interior height. Need to be able to use the porta-potty when out on the water.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

There are websites that have some polars for some boats but this isn't a stat that yacht sellers have any need for. Most people who go in to buy a new sailboat likely would not know what it is. Polars also vary rig to rig, sailor to sailor. It's probably best to just work up your own.


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

Daveinet said:


> Up and down on the S2. At first glance it started to look pretty good. Like the cabin layout, even though I probably won't use it much. Its bigger than I need, but OK. Watched several videos of it sailing, even in light winds, it still seemed to move. Then discovered beam is 9 feet. Whoops, I don't want to have to get a permit every time I sail the thing. Well, a little more reading and seems everyone ignores the permit requirement for over width. Hmm, well something to think about. Is it only the early ones with an inboard diesel or just a rare option?


Just throwing another plug in here for the 7.9. We love ours (for the size of boat she is). We are in a similar situation as you (small inland lake). Ours has the inboard, which I'm very happy with (so far). I prefer to not have an outboard hanging off the back, and we haven't even burnt 5 gallons of diesel all season. Its fairly quick for a keel boat, and polars are available online (check hottamaleracing.com or s279.org. No worries trailering it at 9 feet wide..although it is pretty big and heavy and definitely a three person job (IMHO) to rig and de-rig.

edited to add: Here's one for sale close to you (I'm totally unaffiliated) http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/38612

Several also for sale on the class website (s279.org)


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## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

Only thing that is ruling the 7.9 out for me is price tag. When I started looking, my budget was a little bigger than it is now. I keep saving money, but there is a leak in my boat fund. At the moment its leaking out faster than I can pump it in. Realistically, I am in the $5K and under bracket.


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## Rhys05 (Aug 22, 2012)

Daveinet said:


> Only thing that is ruling the 7.9 out for me is price tag. When I started looking, my budget was a little bigger than it is now. I keep saving money, but there is a leak in my boat fund. At the moment its leaking out faster than I can pump it in. Realistically, I am in the $5K and under bracket.


I feel ya there man. Maybe you should get an iceboat for this winter? Now THAT should fulfill ANYONE's need for speed!  Not sure what else to recommend that is a keelboat with a cabin, fast, and around $5k.


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## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

I have often thought removing the pontoons on my Hobie 14 of putting some old snowmobile skies on instead just to see what it would do out on the lake.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Love the old thread dredge...
Capri 25... slightly better to sit up in down below than the 22... boatloads faster...
Also, if you only ever heard of PHRF, then you haven't looked real hard at numbers...
Try Portsmouth Yardstick...
Current Tables

They have numbers from every sail and yachtclub that has used portsmouth to handicap race.. usually they are the smaller trailerables, but they have numbers for a surprising amount of boats.

Our club uses Portsmouth yardstick... it's got its drawbacks but it works... anyway, it's another way to look up relative speed.


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## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

When I started this thread almost 3 years ago, I was not aware of Portsmouth Yardstick, however, now it is my go to place for numbers. Once in a while, you will find something that has a PHRF rating, but no Portsmouth, so you have to convert for comparison. 

The Capri 25 is interesting, but I'm very curious how hit gets its numbers. With a SA/Disp ratio of only 15.84, that is very low compared to most boats I have been watching. It jut hard to believe it would run anywhere near boats in the SA/Disp ratio in the mid 20s. Or is all of its speed down wind? Does it plane? Will it plane on a beam reach?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I think you have that Sa/D wrong - check here. It says it's over 20.

CAPRI 25 (CATALINA) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Oh and yes and Yes, Surfs on a run, and Surfs on a reach! Spent our last race doing just that! Spent nearly our whole race above theoretical hull speed.

The Spinnaker is massive on them.


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## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

I was careless in my search for specs, and did not notice I looked at a Catalina 25, rather than the Capri 25. 

I just went back and looked at the spec you listed, and noticed a fin keel. Is there a version with a swing keel or dagger board? 4.2' draft is not going to be trailer launchable.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

I know this is an old thread but didn't realize this statement was hanging out there... so I thought I'd clarify.

I trailer launch and retrieve my Capri 25 twice yearly... It's doable... but you much strap launch it... There are literally dozens of videos on strap launching keel boats.

Much larger keel boats than 4'2" are launched in this method, including J/80s, with 5' keels. Honestly the tricky part isn't launching its retrieval, especially if your launch ramp is steep (mine is)... You must have a bow roller, to bring the bow up and forward as you winch the boat onto the trailer. This is required to take a flat boat, and mate it to a trailer that is at up to 20 degrees off level.

like this:


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## Daveinet (Jun 10, 2010)

That is an interesting way to do it. I'm curious how you encourage the trailer to go down into the water. Many launch ramps level out not too far after you are off the ramp. Not down hill enough for the trailer to roll on its own, especially if its muddy. 

I put my boat in the water for the first time this pasts Sunday. When I returned to the ramp, the center board was dragging. The boat would not make it all the way to the dock without pulling up the center board. My draft is 4 feet. I have to be real careful not to get hung up on this shallow lake. I got caught twice under sail. It was good to get it out on the water. I need to learn a few technical things on how to get the sail shape like it should be. The sails don't seem stretched out, but they do tend to pocket to the point were they are hooking on the end. Both sails seem to do that. I also could get the sail to lay open at the top. It either wanted to pocket all the way up, or scoop out in the middle. Both the jib and the main had this issue.


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