# Smallest sailboat to use in blue water safely



## Spider0804 (Oct 12, 2011)

I am looking to go sailing in the ocean in a few years most likely singlehand and I was wondering what the smallest length is considered safe for open ocean travel.

I have tried searching but there does not seem to be a thread on the subject, only tales of small boats doing big things but I do not want a high risk. I want stability.

Through my research so far I have discovered that a fin keel boat is probably the worst if I hit a shipping container or reef, and that spade rudders also are most likely the weakest of the rudder types. (Skeg / Keel hung)

There seems to be an opinion that long narrow beam boats are more stable as well.

So just looking for some characteristics to look for if I want an acceptable safety factor.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

pretty good list here Atom Voyages - Good Old Boats List


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## Spider0804 (Oct 12, 2011)

Wow I am pretty surprised to see the smaller lengths on there, this deserves some further research on my part.

Thankyou for the resource!


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

You could try a Mini Transat. You'd get places a lot faster. Personally, I wouldn't go to sea in a Cape Dory 25. Very tender boat, as is the Alberg 30, IMO. Old and heavy doesn't equate to stable, IMO.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

my islander 24 bahama is what they used to call morc rated midget ocean racing which ment offshore racing and robin graham sailed most of the way around the world on a gladiator 24 which is a splash of the islander most of your smaller full keel boats would be good imo however you have to feel comfortable in what you take out there


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## Spider0804 (Oct 12, 2011)

The Transat is a purpose built racing boat, which equates to not very comfortable. Also what happens to that keel if you hit a submerged log or something at 25 knots? Looking for comfort, who cares when I get there as long as I am goin.

Also looking into the islander 24, do you actually have a good amount of room on that?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

"Kenichi Horie is regarded as a Japanese National Hero, and we are most pleased to bask in a small reflection of his glory. Mr. Horie was an unknown 23-year-old when he sailed his *19-foot black plywood sloop*, the Mermaid, through the Golden Gate in 1962. His arrival was entirely unannounced. He had, in fact, left Japanese waters without any form of official clearance. Ninety-four days later, he arrived in San Francisco with no passport, no money, and little knowledge of English."
There is no right answer to your question. It's more about tiny boats and camping and a larger boat and living. Kenichi Horie survived in a damp, uncomfortable little hole for 90 odd days and we live in a dry, comfortable 3 bedroom, 2 bath home. What's your comfort level?


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Spider0804 said:


> The Transat is a purpose built racing boat, which equates to not very comfortable. Also what happens to that keel if you hit a submerged log or something at 25 knots? Looking for comfort, who cares when I get there as long as I am goin.
> 
> Also looking into the islander 24, do you actually have a good amount of room on that?


Actually yes you do I have the Bahama model with the raised deck sthe deck/cabin goes full width of the sheer you loose about 6 inches headroom to gain lots of room laterally I have been living aboard for about two years now.but if you can find it go with the 1968 islander 30 or the columbia defender if you can get one (standing headroom )


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Spider0804 said:


> I was wondering what the smallest length is considered safe for open ocean travel.


I think the other responders to this thresd have not read your question correctly.

You say "safe".

In the last ten years there has been no modern sailboat above 100 feet long that has been lost with crew killed (or still missing, as the media like to imagine many islands of Robinson Crusoe's).

So as far a "safe" goes you should look at those above 100 feet.

I wouldn't be seen at sea in any less than my size boat, maybe a few 36's but nothing smaller, no matter how old it is.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Have to disagree with Mark on this one. We have seen several Vega 27s in widely-separated parts of the world. I think they are as safe as any boat in the 30 to 50 foot range. Certainly not as fast or as comfortable as a larger boat. Actually perhaps they are a tad unsafer because if a passage takes 20 days rather than 15 you have more possibility of something bad happening I guess.


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

Many small boats have gone to sea, some that come to mind are Flicka, dana 24 Falmouth Cutter 22 as I am sure there are many others. These 3 I listed are probably the more notable Blue water very small cruisers. 

I am a fan of Alberg designs as they have proven quite seaworthy, boats like Pearson Trition, Alberg 30, Bristol 27, Ariel and Cape Dory 28 have many ocean passages, even circumnavigations under their belts. Again these are older boats so I stress that these were well maintained boats, Meaning rigging was not 40+ years old and other systems were up to the task

These boats I am listing now are not boats others would list as "blue water" but there is a Russian guy that is attempting to sail around the world on San Jaun 24 and just made a crazy weather filled passage from Hawaii to San Francisco, Ronnie Simpson just sailed Cal 27-2 from San Diego to Hawaii(only to be dismasted a few days later a few miles off the coast). There was at least one cal 20 that competed in the single hand race from San Fran to Hawaii. Another is Roger Tayor who sailed a coribee 21 into the very northern atlantic on 40-60 day excursions(has youtube channel called Junkming). So it can be done with just about any well prepared boat.

I think this question comes up at least once a month and truthfully I don't think there is a real good answer other than go with a well maintained boat. Seems as long as you know the boat and know how to sail it in adverse conditions just about any boat will cross an ocean. Some more comfortable than others.

Last but very not least, is a smart and knowledgeable sailor. You must know your boat, you must watch the weather, you must know how to handle your boat if you get caught in weather, you must know how to provision your boat, you must ALSO have some luck. You may have all the best gear, the most seaworthy cruiser ever made and not make it. Sometimes SH!t happens so you must also be prepare to get/call for help.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Spider0804 said:


> I am looking to go sailing in the ocean in a few years most likely singlehand and I was wondering what the smallest length is considered safe for open ocean travel.
> 
> I have tried searching but there does not seem to be a thread on the subject, only tales of small boats doing big things but I do not want a high risk. I want stability....some characteristics to look for if I want an acceptable safety factor.


Your focus is misplaced. What matters is the skipper, not the boat.

What is your skill level and experience?


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## Spider0804 (Oct 12, 2011)

A year of sailing my sirocco 15 dinghy, I plan to go another year of sailing that and volunteering to crew for a few larger boats after I move closer to the coast.
Then I will get one of my own and sail that near the coast for a while and after that hope for the best. 

I have experience with ropes/knots, charts, some instruments, electrical equipment and am trying to learn more as I go.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

If safety is your first priority and you are thinking blue water then there is not anything much tougher than a steel boat.

Something like this 1986 Tahitian Ketch Blue Water Cruiser Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

It is even reasonably pretty which is not true of most steel boats.

That will look after you well and survive most storms collisions and groundings.

However it will not be fast. A classic 4knsb.


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## Spider0804 (Oct 12, 2011)

Also it is not like I plan to go around running up on shoals carving my initials in there but I have heard a few horror stories of debris and high ground ruining peoples day.

That boat is cheaper that what I expected before clicking.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

The two are not mutually exclusive. There are good boats for going to sea, and there are bad boats.



jameswilson29 said:


> Your focus is misplaced. What matters is the skipper, not the boat.
> 
> What is your skill level and experience?


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

I agree. Bigger is not necessarily "safer" when it comes to sailboats on the ocean. Structurally, a small boat is much easier to engineer to be able to withstand the stresses of the Ocean. Put the cap on an empty two liter bottle of soda, toss it into the ocean, and I bet it is still floating safely many months later.

Bigger can be more comfortable, nicer and faster, however.



killarney_sailor said:


> Have to disagree with Mark on this one. We have seen several Vega 27s in widely-separated parts of the world. I think they are as safe as any boat in the 30 to 50 foot range. Certainly not as fast or as comfortable as a larger boat. Actually perhaps they are a tad unsafer because if a passage takes 20 days rather than 15 you have more possibility of something bad happening I guess.


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## Mycroft (Sep 27, 2013)

Good luck in your search. I think "safe" is a very ambiguous term that shouldn't be bandied about wildly. It's a very slippery slope.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

It's not so much the length as the displacement - 10K Lbs is the lower limit of what I would call a true offshore cruising boat. Lighter than that and you'll have to make too many sacrifices.

Experienced cruisers seem to generally regard 35' - 40' as optimum. Smaller is cheaper so you can go sooner and bigger is more comfortable but quickly gets a LOT more expensive.

My own Fortune 30 was designed to be a minimum offshore boat for one or two and I think it would do well - several have made long voyages.

Check out the thread "Sloops New Cutter" last year for info & pics.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

id take a columbia challenger on the list as well

built like tanks


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Why does an offshore boat necessitate a big displacement number? For sea kindliness? Maybe. And certainly traditionally. But I would be more concerned about quality of construction and strength.



SloopJonB said:


> It's not so much the length as the displacement - 10K Lbs is the lower limit of what I would call a true offshore cruising boat. Lighter than that and you'll have to make too many sacrifices.
> 
> Experienced cruisers seem to generally regard 35' - 40' as optimum. Smaller is cheaper so you can go sooner and bigger is more comfortable but quickly gets a LOT more expensive.
> 
> ...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

exactly!

it will just be more uncomfortable but in reality size isnt that big a deal

for example I would have NO QUALMS circumnavigating in a folkboat....especially the glass ones

versus say a craptastic buccanner something in the mid 40s

your looking for quality, construction, pedigree and known accomplishments in similar voyages and waters

thats what you need to be looking at...


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

A several above have said, a lot depends upon the sailor, as well as the boat. The Pardeys managed circumnavigations aboard their engineless 24' Serraffyn of Victoria. It was a heavy-displacement, full-keel, Bristol Pilot-style boat. They sold her and built another, somewhat larger one a few years ago. They knew what they were doing before heading out, and had a boat that suited them pretty well. http://newenglandboating.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Seraffyn_open.jpg Try sailing as many different boats as you can - in nasty weather - to see what might suit you.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

jzk said:


> Why does an offshore boat necessitate a big displacement number? For sea kindliness? Maybe. And certainly traditionally. But I would be more concerned about quality of construction and strength.


Several things - ability to carry the weight of stores without severely degrading performance, volume inside for accommodations, headroom, motion (sea kindliness) etc.

Build quality, while not directly tied to disp. is far less likely to be up to offshore work in a lightly built boat. Only expensive high tech boats get extreme strength and light weight in the same package. It's far easier to accomplish in a heavier disp. boat.

I'm thinking in terms of the boat being your long term cruising home, not just something to scoot across to Hawaii in. Do you really want to live long term on a boat with only sitting headroom like a Folkboat? If all you want is a survival capsule, people have crossed oceans in 8 footers. Webb Chiles nearly circumnavigated in an open 18' Drascombe.

Obviously there are exceptions, there always are (and I'm sure we'll get a bunch of peoples personal favourites) but in GENERAL terms, what I've posted applies.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

dont forget that todays small is a 35 footer and that cruisers want the whole house and kitchen sink as a necessity

whereas a 35 footer back in the 50, 60s, even 70s was considered big...

I always go back to l.f. hereshoff and his SENSIBLE CRUISING designs...

as a reminder of the good ole days and sensible thoughts on designs! jajaja

just cause its small doesnt mean its lightly built, case in point columbia challenger, a folkboat, north seas, flickas and countless others, some better than others but look at specific boats and not generalities...

an unsafe boat can be unsafe in any size big and small...and there are many out there who are misguided into thinking bigger is better...but thats a whole nother topic!

peace


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

The Pacific Seacraft's 20 ft. Flicka is an iconic small blue water cruiser. Bruce Bingham design. Someone wrote a book with a title Kawabunga's South Seas Adventure: Blue Water Cruising in a Twenty Foot Boat about taking one acrosst he Pacific. Small Craft Advisor has a good review you can google up.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

paulk said:


> They sold her and built another, somewhat larger one a few years ago.


You must be as old as me - *that was 30 years ago*


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## Spider0804 (Oct 12, 2011)

Definatly looking for longer than 20 feet, main reason being waves. I have been on a bigger boat and a smaller boat in decent sized waves and the longer boat seemed to take the waves alot better than the smaller one, felt like the smaller one pitched more because instead of more of the boat going into the water on the top of the wave it was more like a cork riding over the tops of the waves.

Dunno if that was what was happening but that is how it felt.

http://www.columbia-yachts.com/c-26_67d.jpg

http://atomvoyages.com/gallery/photo-gallery/image.raw?view=image&type=orig&id=784

These shapes appeal to me.

I am no expert but the bottoms of those boats look super strong but are shallow enough to get you closer to islands, the second one is a swing keel.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Here's a picture of a 6' long sailboat that safely crossed the Atlantic...










So we know that it can be done safely in a 6' boat.

To the OP, it would seem that you are asking if it can be done in a boat even smaller than that. If that's not what you are asking, then what's your REAL question?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

yeah Im confused...yoru basically looking at sub 30 footers for cruising now which as many have pointed out there are MANY boats to chose from...


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

denverd0n said:


> Here's a picture of a 6' long sailboat that safely crossed the Atlantic...


Did it safely cross the Atlantic? Or did it just survive? Was there a sailor on board and did he survive too?


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Did it safely cross the Atlantic? Or did it just survive? Was there a sailor on board and did he survive too?


Yes, there was a sailor aboard. Yes, he survived the trip. I would call that having crossed "safely."

Now, if you want to propose some other definition for "safe" you are certainly free to do that.

The real point, however, is that the OP has used the word "safe" without giving any clue as to what he/she really means by that. I don't think the OP really even cares--despite the subject line--what is the smallest sailboat that can be safe in bluewater. He is trying to figure out how small of a boat he can buy. But before that question can be answered, he has to spend a whole lot more time thinking about, and clearly defining (more so to himself than to us), just what it is that he wants out of any boat that he might buy.

My somewhat absurd posting was a subtle attempt to get the OP to realize that--at this point at least--he is asking the wrong question.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Exactly - stunt sailing is not long term cruising. Lots of people have sailed such things as Santa Cruz 27's to Hawaii and so forth but a two week downwind race is a lot different than living aboard and cruising long term.

For example, simply carrying 100 gal. of water would increase an SC 27's disp. by approx. 1/3. 

Food is extra.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Of course I want to go offshore in a big boat. I am all for comfort. And then let's not forget that we need a place for the chickens to "free range" lest the eggs produced not qualify as "organic."

But I do think the trend is to use technology to get strength and light weight in the same package. That is a good thing. Of course, I am not knocking heavier displacement boats.



SloopJonB said:


> Several things - ability to carry the weight of stores without severely degrading performance, volume inside for accommodations, headroom, motion (sea kindliness) etc.
> 
> Build quality, while not directly tied to disp. is far less likely to be up to offshore work in a lightly built boat. Only expensive high tech boats get extreme strength and light weight in the same package. It's far easier to accomplish in a heavier disp. boat.
> 
> ...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

jzk said:


> Of course I want to go offshore in a big boat. I am all for comfort. And then let's not forget that we need a place for the chickens to "free range" lest the eggs produced not qualify as "organic."
> 
> ...


If you want to take chickens and have boat grown vegetables, maybe this is what you are looking for (see the movies)

Interesting Sailboats: CORENTIN, THE CHICKEN AND HIS CRUISE ON THE INDIAN OCEAN

Regarding the original question: No small boat is safe no matter what. The smaller the less safety tolerance has (generally speaking). We can say that proportional heavier boats have more stability but then that says nothing about dynamic stability that is better on a lighter beamier boat with a foil torpedo keel.

There are not a single recipe here, as it was already said beamy boats derived from the mini racers have proved a remarkably seaworthiness, as narrow boats Contessa type or some heavy full keel boats kind of derived from the old pilot cutter design. Anyway to give the impression that a boat with less than 30ft is a "safe" bluewater boat is a dangerous thing. Someone can believe it

Its safe if nothing wrong happens and storms are not meet...or if one is lucky. I would not cross the Atlantic in one. Maybe when I was younger and crazier:laugher


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

jzk said:


> But I do think the trend is to use technology to get strength and light weight in the same package. That is a good thing. Of course, I am not knocking heavier displacement boats.


As I said;

*Only expensive high tech boats get extreme strength and light weight in the same package. It's far easier to accomplish in a heavier disp. boat.*

I'm not saying you need some iceberg style tub but you do need some substance under you unless you want to spend $$$$ for a high tech boat.

Even then, liveaboard stores & equipment will degrade performance more than in a heavier boat - see Sail Area to Displacement Ratio.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

jzk said:


> ...
> But I do think the trend is to use technology to get strength and light weight in the same package. That is a good thing. Of course, I am not knocking heavier displacement boats.


Yes you can have that but a small boat is a small boat and the safety margin is smaller. This is the smallest boat that passes the RCD criteria to Class A boats and is certified as such. It passes but just barely while bigger boats pass with a bigger margin.

Interesting Sailboats: DJANGO 7.70 on a CIRCUMNAVIGATION

By the way the owner of that boat is circumnavigating and accepts another sailor as a crew for each leg of the voyage. If you have the time it would be a good way to learn. He should be by now an experienced sailor and if you want to accept the risks of sailing on a smaller boat (that are not that big with a sailor that knows what he is doing), that one is better than most, certainly better that the 20ft boats you suggested. That boat the advantage of being unsubmersible it is also a fast boat and a nice one to sail.


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## Spider0804 (Oct 12, 2011)

I just mentioned I like the shape of those boats.

Safe to me means if something happens, you will have a good chance of coming out not much worse than when you went in.

I stopped driving motorcycles because of this, had lots of close calls and if something HAD happened my chances of coming out alive were pretty bad.

A small great gas saver like a smart car will get you there, but if you hit something you turn into a bowling ball.

Safe for a sailboat would mean getting caught by a tropical storm and riding it out with a good chance of success, hitting a log and not having the keel rip off, not having the boat flip if I am caught off guard, or generally just not sinking when something goes wrong.

Anyway the question was answered by people above and gave me plenty of opinions to think about.

30-35 feet with a hung rudder and a reasonable point of no return for tilting seems to be where I want to be.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Another good reason to avoid small boats

Missing yacht debris washes ashore - national | Stuff.co.nz


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Another good reason to avoid small boats
> 
> Missing yacht debris washes ashore - national | Stuff.co.nz


Very poor example to support your argument. I bet more trash and debris washes ashore from larger sinking vessels every year. The oceans are littered with debris of sunken cargo ships that break up in storms.......proving size is no match for mother nature...no matter how big or small.
There have been many documented crossing and passages by small craft, safely and comfortably. Just because you chose not to does not mean it cannot be done safely. It doesn't take much searching around to find many examples of people venturing offshore in small craft. Open your eyes.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Spider0804 said:


> Safe to me means if something happens, you will have a good chance of coming out not much worse than when you went in.


Not a bad definition, but what people are trying to tell you is that this has FAR more to do with your abilities as a sailor than it has to do with the particular boat that you choose. "Hung rudder" or spade rudder doesn't make the least bit of difference if the sailor is not "safe" to begin with.

Once again, as clearly as I can put it, you are asking the WRONG QUESTION!

Good luck to you, in any case.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

newhaul said:


> my islander 24 bahama is what they used to call morc rated midget ocean racing which ment offshore racing and robin graham sailed most of the way around the world on a gladiator 24 which is a splash of the islander most of your smaller full keel boats would be good imo however you have to feel comfortable in what you take out there


I thought Robin Graham sailed 3/4 way in a Lapworth 24, then the rest in a 33 foot Allied Luders.

I see you are correct- Also known as Lapworth Gladiator 24.

From what I understand the Lapworth was falling apart and by the time he go to the Carribean he replaced it with the Allied. I actually saw the Lapworth 24 "Dove" in St Martin back in 1981. We had just delivered a boat from Florida and my crew mate looked at the boat next to us and said there is the "Dove". Since then she was sunk at a mooring during a hurricane.

The second Allied Ludders "Dove" was for sale several years back here in Hawaii- she looked in good shape.

From Wikipedia:






Robin started his journey on the original Dove, a 24 foot Lapworth sloop. On reaching the Caribbean, Dove was replaced by Return of Dove, a 33 foot Allied Luders sloop.[2]

Dove sank in Hurricane Hugo in 1989.

The Return of Dove was found in Hawaii by Mark and Beverly Langley in 2000. They restored her in 2001. She was sold again in 2004 and is believed to still be in Hawaii.[3]


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## Spider0804 (Oct 12, 2011)

To denver, a safe driver on the road does not depend entirely on the drivers skill, some cars are just naturally more dangerous.

You dont go looking for a car and ask how safe it is then look up the crash test ratings that say oh hey if your skill is x the saftey is y.


I assume the same is for sailboats.

Skill is a factor yes but the question was of a boats saftey factor which is a valid question.

Durability, Max degree of tilt before no return, keel type, rudder location, length are all factors of saftey.

My question was of how small do you go before your 5 star crash test turns into a 1 star.
I already have my criteria.

30-35 foot with a hung rudder and a good max tilt.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Islander 24 is what is called self righting and has positive flotation


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Sabreman said:


> You could try a Mini Transat. You'd get places a lot faster. Personally, I wouldn't go to sea in a Cape Dory 25. Very tender boat, as is the Alberg 30, IMO. Old and heavy doesn't equate to stable, IMO.


I wouldn't go offshore in a Cape Dory 25 either, but I would sure go in a Cape Dory 25D in a second. It's a shame Cape Dory didn't do more to explain that these were two very different boats.


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## Osprey 26 (Jun 28, 2013)

Spider0804 said:


> To denver, a safe driver on the road does not depend entirely on the drivers skill, some cars are just naturally more dangerous.
> 
> You dont go looking for a car and ask how safe it is then look up the crash test ratings that say oh hey if your skill is x the saftey is y.
> 
> ...


My wild guess here is what kind of boat also come also with training wheels?
Build your own by learning how to


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Spider0804 said:


> Durability, Max degree of tilt before no return, keel type, rudder location, length are all factors of saftey.


Just to throw it out there: I know a guy who lost the rig on his Pearson Triton when a swage failed after a hard landing coming off a big swell. He was lucky to be able to cut away the rig and motor in.

I would add to your list:

Standing rigging - has it recently been carefully inspected (or better, replaced)?
Chainplates - how are they attached to the hull - best at bulkhead - and can you inspect all parts, or is part hidden?
Rudder skeg - is it just a hunk of fiberglass, or did they do it right and engineer a steel frame and truss inside the hull?
Motor mounts - are they strong enough to keep the iron genny still when the boat's shaking
Compression post and any coachroof stiffeners for deck-stepped masts
Seacocks - proper ones, double-clamped
Hatches and portlights - securely bedded? do they leak? Storm shutters?
Hull/deck joint - secure & leak free?
Cockpit lockers - isolated from bilges? Reliable latches on lids?
Cockpit drains - big and clear?
Cleats,winches,stanchions - properly bedded? large backing plates?

Anything else?

Of course a lot of these are things you can check or improve on any boat. I just wanted to mention them because I know what happens when people think, "I've got a bluewater model" and set out 

Oh, and yes, I have done terrible terrible things to my boat. And it survived just fine. Credit to its builder, not me.


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

I have a 20ft blue water boat but I am not a blue water sailor, and don't have a strong desire to be one.

The same model Havsfidra 20 has been sailed across the Atlantic and around the world, by others.

An experienced blue water sailor will know if their boat is blue water capable.


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## Mr. Chef (Oct 6, 2013)

Joshua Slocum circumnavigated in a wooden 30ft tahiti ketch without electronics. Of course, there were no shipping containers to worry about and much less traffic.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Spray was not a Tahiti ketch - they hadn't even been designed then - Hanna wasn't born until 1899.

It was a derelict oyster dredger that he was given and which he rebuilt. The only reason he succeeded was that he was a consummate seaman, not because he had a good or appropriate boat.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

many sub-30 footers have done ocean crossings and circumnavigations safely and soundly. If I wanted to choose one that would most likely get me home safe and sound, I would draw up a list of boats that have done it, see which ones do it more often (Like the alberg 30) and then choose a boat from that list that tickles your fancy.

Then get her home and prepare to drop some boat bucks in getting her prepared for such a trip. For this trip, even a brand new boat will need some refitting to tackle what you wish to do.


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## socal c25 (Nov 1, 2013)

Two boats that I would have no problem venturing across an ocean with are the Pacific Seacraft Flicka and the other is the North Sea 27.


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## Mr. Chef (Oct 6, 2013)

I stand corrected. I wonder where I got that information.


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## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

How about one of these.........yahoooo.....they look fun!

Open 16 FIPOFIX - Open 16 FIPOFIX


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

can always ask Matt Rutherford his opinion on navigating around the Americas. (northwest passage and cape horn0 in a 27 food Albin vega.

Search Results | Cruising World


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere: John Vigor: 9780939837328: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ECj%[email protected]@[email protected]@51ECj%2BqZSfL

This is a good book that can help illustrate what qualities make a good, small blue water boat. What a lot of folks are not saying is that it is what you can tolerate. Boats are usually stronger then their captain and crew. I do like the Tartan 27 you posted but it is not the best for blue water sailing. Though Tartans are well build craft and the 27 could be fitted out to be a capable voyager. There is a huge difference between cruising the Caribbean or the coconut route compared to sailing north or south of latitude 40. A couple of benefits of the really small boats is positive buoyancy, and much smaller forces.  The point about a soda bottle tossed in the ocean is a prime example.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

If you have a smaller boat with positive flotation there will not be enough room for water and other provisions for a longish trip.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

on small boats its easier to make water tight bulkheads, instead of going whole positive flotation...this mostly to protect from collision damage and not sink you.

one aft at the rudder stock area if you have a rudder that comes thru deck....if not just make a bulkhead sealing of that area...

same for bow, like a chain locker just aft a bit more

off to the sides you can also seal off and make water tight the bunk areas...

I think anyone looking at small boat offshore sailing can do well by looking at atom voyages aka james baldwin.

sorry if it has been brought up already...


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> you could also look at a Bristol 26 it's basically a 27, but sexier. I think with some upgrades one of those handsome animals could be made to go just about anywhere. Jajaja
> peace


Exactly!


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

The smallest boat that we could do a serious blue water passage in would probably be in the low- 40-foot range -- 
because my wife might try to kill me if I tried to make a passage with her in something smaller, less sea kindly, and less outfitted with "necessities".


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

just remember.. smaller the boat, bigger the pump. 

I personally like sub-30 footers. I am currently looking at several colin archer style double-enders in the 26 foot range that I like a lot


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I sometimes read these threads as almost being rhetorical and at best speculative.After all, to take a small boat off shore, and to safely make major passages requires a lot skill and knowledge. And with that skill and knowledge is bound to come tastes and prejudices which will likely dictate the appropriate choice for that particular individual to chose as the one right small boat to take cruising.

In my mind there are minimum threshold factors in selecting a boat which represent almost universal lower limits for making a safe distance passage. These should seem almost self- evident and they are often under discussed. At the minimum a safe passage maker needs to be able to carry and safely store the necessary supplies and spares that would be required for the longest nonce-stop Lowe leg of the voyage. The smaller and slower the boat, the more that needs to be carried. Small and slow breeding the need for more storage and carrying capacity, which in turn breeds less speed and a downward spiral in terms of weight and size. It needs to carry ground tackle and a away to get ashore. It needs a safe place to sleep and prepare food. It needs a safe place to sit and steer. It needs to be a home in all conditions, hot,cold, breeze less and windy.

The second element is seaworthiness. As a boat becomes shorter, it gets much harder to design a seaworthy and easily handled boat with the capacities mentioned above. For decades knowledgeable designers have understood that within reason a longer boat of the same displacement will generally be more seaworthy, offer better motion and sail carrying capacity, and be easier to handle. 

The third element is robustness. The wear and tear from a single long passage can amount to the equivalent of decades of normal use. I often see people quote decades old books, recommending half century old coastal cruising boats. While these boats may have been capable of making long passages at some point in the past, most of these boats are so tired that putting one into safe condition to do so amounts to effectively building a new boat within the shell of a tired old hulk burdened with a use it was never intended for, and often resulting in dubious naval architectural capabilities for its intended purpose. 

The last piece of this puzzle is availability to the buyer. In the domain of boats built over the past century, Relatively few boats were designed with the intention of serious voyaging, and even fewer small boats were purpose built with that in mind. People have pressed a variety of questionable designs into service and somehow survived on a mix of luck and skill, but many have simply gone 
missing or never made it past a short hop that was deemed too far and so they simply packed it in. And with that limited choice of 'suitable' designs, and the fact that over time they get used up and disposed if, it gets harder to find a good one on a tight budget anywhere remotely near the buyers location. 

In the end, it should not be about the smallest boat to use safely offshore, but the right one. 

Jeff


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

When I think of the smallest boat to be used safely in "blue water", I think it's whatever the smallest you're comfortable with. My boat, a Nor'sea 27, is quite capable of traveling anywhere I may point the bow. I may feel that I could go ahead and go out to sea, but I also feel that my skills could use more improvement.

On a nice easy passage, you could be on a boat thinking you could have gone smaller, but when the storms kick up, you'll wish you had bigger. It's all in your mind and abilities to make any passage safely regardless of the size of boat.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

What Jeff said is pretty true. I'm find in that the boat has to be almost completely rebuilt. Well...let's say 70-80 percent beond the hull and wood interior has to be redone. I've always liked the idea of a small boat going anywhere and they can but I don't think I would buy a forty year old boat with original bolts and sails, hardware, ropes, rigging, keel bolts, tiller, hatches, tiller, motor, portholes, wiring, cushions thru hulls, plumbing, lights, deck grip etc and expect it to be able to do it. But that is lot of what you find for sale. Maybe not all original, but the more that has been redone, the more that boat is maintained, maybe the less likely it is for sale? Doesn't it seem like a lot of the boats for sale are the ones that have been sitting for along time and the owner finally decides to sell it.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

northoceanbeach said:


> <<snip>>
> Doesn't it seem like a lot of the boats for sale are the ones that have been sitting for along time and the owner finally decides to sell it.


I suspect that this particularly applies to the real 'bargain' boats out there. If the prices of a Whatsit 26 range from $6000 to $12000 and you find one for $1500 there has to be a good reason beyond the fact that you are really nice person and the gods have decided to smile on you. My feeling is that the best bargain may be the one that is fairly expensive compared to most but has had the money spent on it already.


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

Jeff_H said:


> I sometimes read these threads as almost being rhetorical and at best speculative.After all, to take a small boat off shore, and to safely make major passages requires a lot skill and knowledge. And with that skill and knowledge is bound to come tastes and prejudices which will likely dictate the appropriate choice for that particular individual to chose as the one right small boat to take cruising.
> 
> In the end, it should not be about the smallest boat to use safely offshore, but the right one.
> 
> Jeff


As this topic title says, smallest boat not the right boat. But the right boat for someone might be a small one!

There are many many choices of good old boats out there. Most boats including new boats(especially) will need to be made more robust and upgraded for offshore use. I am not sure what the choices would be for new small cruiser. I think you can order a Falmouth Cutter 22, Nor'sea 27 or Dana 24 @ $125-150,000...Does this make more sense than buying a used plastic classic, especially one with proven circumnavigation and offshore use history????

Lets say you buy a small used Pearson Triton, There are several out there in varying conditions but lets say a good solid example could be had for $5000. you invest another $30000, even $40,000 in that boat for refitting for offshore and cruising capability, is this a wiser choice given the boats offshore history and proven capability?

I have chosen to buy an older plastic classic, one that I knew would need refitting and upgrading, but one I know had a hulk of a hull and has proven to be seaworthy. I have used it for the last 3.5 years gaining experience and learning what I like and dislike about the boat. All the while thinking and researching what will be done during the refit to make her offshore capable. I have already reworked her standing and running rigging. Next will be the hull, interior and deck. This will take time and money. I will have the boat here at the house and can do these modification as time and money allow. One of the advantages of buying an older boat and refitting for intended use.

Another advantage to a small boat is the fact that this the cost are kept in check. There was a fellow I met a few years back, he had an inheritance given to him of 10K. He bought a Bristol 27 for $1000. Spend $5000 refitting her and was using the rest of the money to go cruising. Last I knew he was in the Dominican Republic and had been cruising for 6 months.

I am not aware of any new boats that can be purchased for such a low budget and even thing about cruising. The price alone would keep me working 24/7 to pay for it.

Check out these sites for small boats going offshore

Introduction to the junk-rigged Corribee Mingming - was 21ft Corribee now a 24ft classic
Atom Voyages - Home - 28ft Triton and a great site for upgrading and choosing an offshore capable boat.
www.Bristol27.com- Refitting of a Bristol 27 for offshore duty
www.bristol29.com- refitting of Bristol 29 for offshore duty.

Go small!


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Cruiser2B said:


> There was a fellow I met a few years back, he had an inheritance given to him of 10K. He bought a Bristol 27 for $1000. Spend $5000 refitting her and was using the rest of the money to go cruising. Last I knew he was in the Dominican Republic and had been cruising for 6 months.
> 
> I am not aware of any new boats that can be purchased for such a low budget and even thing about cruising.


I would think not - I doubt 6 grand would even buy you a new Laser.

A new "anything" capable of going offshore would cost well into the 6 *figure *range, not the 6 grand range.


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

thing to remember.. even a brand new boat is going to require some refitting to make it a true bluewater boat. I am talking upsizing the rigging, adding more storage, re-routing lines, and the electronics, wiring, and like that a boat will need for a long passage.


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> I would think not - I doubt 6 grand would even buy you a new Laser.
> 
> A new "anything" capable of going offshore would cost well into the 6 *figure *range, not the 6 grand range.


Very Close! An on-line and retail chandlery from Annapolis that caters to racing sailors sells a racing Laser for $6,065, or about $500 more for one with upgraded hardware. That's not counting trailer or launch dolly ($495) or tax.


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## Johnniegee (Oct 13, 2014)

Is living safe? Does the sea call out to you? When you are old you you regret not listening? Only you can answer these questions


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