# Vhf/ham



## PAULCR1 (Dec 9, 2011)

We want to start cruising but are confused about what is required for a radio aboard. We know we don't need a license for our VHF in US waters but one we leave the US we have to have a FCC license. If we get a HAM license does that cover us for our VHF???


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

An amature liscense (Ham) entitles you you to use a wide spread of frequencies
, but puts the responsibility for proper and legal operation squarely on your shoulders.
Ham operators have access to many more vhf frequencies than a sailor does. As well as many transmission modes CW, voice, several digital modes including packet, and some 
limited access to satalite frequencies (my info may be out of date).


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

An amateur radio license entitles you to operate with designated bands VHF being one. Ham operators are not authorized to operate in the maritime portion of that band. With that said you are authorized to operate in the maritime band with a properly approved marine VHF radio on the specified maritime channels.

here is a link that can help with more specific questions:
U.S. Coast Guard Navigation Center

Good Luck in your travels


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## PAULCR1 (Dec 9, 2011)

Desert Rat,
Thanks for the reply but it doesn't quite answer my question.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

There are basically three radios, all with different licensing requirements:

Marine VHF Radio: 25-50 mile range. 
HAM Radio: Long range
Marine HF Radio (often called a SSB radio by sailors): Long range

HAM and Marine HF radios are very similar in many ways, but use different, non-overlapping, frequencies and have different legal requirements.

Details on licensing here: Offshore Store - Marine Radio Licensing


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

Forgot to add: HAM license does not grant special priveledges to use your Marine VHF Frequencies overseas. Generally, it does not even grant the right to use HAM frequencies overseas, there are some exceptions.

For details on HAM use requlations by country see: Worldwide Information on Licensing for Radio Amateurs by OH2MCN


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

As far as I understand the short story of this is (have had it explained many times but still don't really get it), if you are a ham operator you can't use marine band and if you're not a ham you have to use marine band.

So best is to be a ham operator because then you can say "Now I am" when you need to and "Now I'm not" when you need to.

I have an Icom SSB on my boat that is open on all frequencies. As long as I only broadcast on the marine ones, no-one will have anything to say. So then Joe Bloggs comes aboard with a ham registration (call sign) and he can use the same radio on any frequency he wants but not the ones I use (marine band).

Assuming the above statement is correct, how dumb is that?


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## PAULCR1 (Dec 9, 2011)

Thanks for your input.

It seem that all things that come out of Washington are convoluted and, seemingly, intentionally, obtuse thereby creating jobs for overpaid, undereducated drones. O.K., so that's my political statement for today.

Again thanks for your input.


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

If using a marine radio overseas, you need a ship station licence from the FCC. This does not require any testing but a fee. I believe you would also be required to apply for a radiotelephone operator license. These give you authorization to have and operate your maritime radio equipment outside the US. Very select on the frequencies you can operate. Having a ham licence allows you to operate on the ham bands only but gives you many more people to talk to while in the world. With a ham license in another country, you may be able to apply for a temporary permit while in that country. Either way, whether it is marine or ham, to operate in another country on those respective bands, a licence is needed.

I hope this helps answer your question.


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## windward54 (Apr 12, 2000)

Hi PAULCR1,

It is a confusing mess sometimes, but just remember, two different radio systems (Marine & Ham) with different requirements. And one license has no effect on the rights granted by the other license.

First the Marine side of it. To operate a VHF and SSB marine radios in international waters you need two licenses. First there is a Ship License. For this one, you can register your VHF, SSB, and obtain a MMSI number that will appear in the USCG database. This license will assign your call sign to your boat and is not transferable. Then, as an individual, you will also need a Restricted Radio Operators (RRO) license. Both licenses are obtained by just completing a form and paying a fee. 

On the ham side, you must test to obtain the right to broadcast on the allotted bands. For the most part, if you are looking at a radio like an ICOM M802, you will need to obtain a general license, which means two tests. But with a little studying, neither is hard. If you have an 802, I would encourage you to get this license.


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## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

To add to the confusion ... There are also discrepancies if your DSC on your radio is registered domestically or internationally.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

PAULCR1 said:


> We want to start cruising but are confused about what is required for a radio aboard. We know we don't need a license for our VHF in US waters but one we leave the US we have to have a FCC license. If we get a HAM license does that cover us for our VHF???


This is simpler than thought.

In the vocabulary of the US FCC and the International Telecommunications Union (ITU) there are various services, each of which carries certain privileges. The two services of interest here are the marine radio service and the amateur (ham) radio service. Both have privileges for medium frequency (MF), high frequency (HF), very high frequency (VHF), and yet higher frequencies.

For a US citizen to operate legally within the marine radio service you need a ship station license (which applies to the boat and conveys your call sign and MMSI) and a restricted radio operators permit (which licenses an operator on the boat to use the boat radio equipment). Depending on which boxes you tick on the station license it will cover MF/HF (SSB), VHF, EPIRB, radar, and sat phone. It doesn't cost any extra to tick all the boxes; you aren't obligated to have all the equipment you are licensed for so do tick all the boxes.

If you plan to operate only in US waters AND only communicate with other US vessels (which technically means NOT to the Liberian-flagged tanker heading in your direction, and NOT to the nice Canadian couple anchored next to you) the license requirements are waived.

In order for DSC to work on either a marine VHF or marine MF/HF radio a Maritime Mobile Service Identity (MMSI) number must be programmed into the radio. A MMSI comes with your FCC station license. You can also get a MMSI from Boat/US, the US Power Squadron, and several other sources. Those MMSI numbers are not carried in the international search and rescue databases which may delay rescue efforts. For US cruisers in the Bahamas this may be of limited concern since the only organization that may hear you is the USCG; BASRA only responds to voice calls. On the other hand, a DSC distress call issued halfway between Newport RI and Cape May NJ may be picked up by the Bermuda Rescue Coordination Center (RCC) and you'd like them to know who you are and what your boat looks like.

The waiver is unique to the United States. Citizens of most other countries require a license regardless of their cruising plans.

Marine service licenses are fully reciprocal under the terms of international treaty.

There is no test required for a US FCC ships station or restricted radio operators permit. The ships station license is good for ten years; the operators permit is good for life.

Licenses for the amateur radio service are both a station license and operators permit in one. A test is required, although there is no longer a Morse code requirement. In my opinion, beyond some minor regulatory issues, there is nothing on the ham radio exams that a cruiser shouldn't know anyway in order to be reasonably self-sufficient while cruising. Reciprocity of ham radio licenses among countries in more complex. The US is a member of IARP that applies to many (not all) Central and South American countries. The US is also a member of CEPT that applies to most of Europe (an Extra class license is recommended for full reciprocity in Europe). Many countries including the Bahamas have independent bilateral reciprocity agreements that require local licensure. See the arrl.org website under international operation for full details.

Licenses for one service do not convey any privileges to other services. A ham license is of no use for normal marine operation and a marine license is of no use for normal ham operation. In the event of a bona fide emergency you may use any means available to get help. Asking for weather information is not an emergency. Sinking or fire or severe health problems are emergencies.

I recommend passagemakers carry MF/HF frequencies for the marine, amateur, and aviation services regardless of what services you carry licenses for. You never know who is most likely to reachable.


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## PAULCR1 (Dec 9, 2011)

Thanks to all for your great input.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

A few months have past, but S/V A's post is quite excellent...

There are some things I want to be able to do using SSB/HF/whatever:get weather offshore, 
get weather routing offshore,
send the occasional email offshore, 
communicate with other boats (when we're underway and when we're at anchor), and
get free beer and burgers everywhere we go.​
OK, maybe not that last one.

I'm an electrial engineer by training, so the technical part of the ham tests would not be a problem.

It's the off season, a good time to arrange things. What do you recommend? Get a ham license, or just get the permits for the boat and me?

Regards,
Brad


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## engineer_sailor (Aug 27, 2011)

+1 vote for the ham license. At least get up to the General class license so you have most HF privileges. You can do both tests in one sitting. Several great mobile apps for studying the pool questions. Would consider upgrading to the Extra class shortly afterwards and focusing on that exam by itself.

Josh


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Bene505 said:


> A few months have past, but S/V A's post is quite excellent...


Thank you.



Bene505 said:


> There are some things I want to be able to do using SSB/HF/whatever:get weather offshore,
> get weather routing offshore,
> send the occasional email offshore,
> communicate with other boats (when we're underway and when we're at anchor), and
> ...


* get weather offshore

There is no substitute for weather fax and to a lesser extent NAVTEX. This is receive-only and requires no licenses at all.

* get weather routing offshore

In my personal opinion you should be self-sufficient for routing. I recommend Lee Chesaneau's courses and Reed's Maritime Meteorology (book). If you still want commercial routing then folks like Chris Parker and Commanders do a fine job. The emphasis should be on voice comms over SSB as you get the benefit of hearing the conditions of other boats within a few hundred miles and sometimes other people ask really good questions you wish you had thought of yourself.

* email offshore

Two meaningful choices: Pactor (Sailmail, CruiseEmail, Bushmail, Shipcom, and Winlink) and WINMOR (Winlink only). If you are cruising full-time I would get a Pactor modem. If you need business communications you need Pactor and a commercial service. If it's weekends and the odd week get a ham license and try WINMOR.

* communicate with other boats

VHF and SSB. The free beer is up to you.

Seriously, there is very little you need to learn to get a ham license you shouldn't know anyway to be a self-sufficient cruiser.

Let me know how I can help.


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

Same votes from me.

I have:

VHF licence to operate - took a test
VHF with DSC to operate - took a test
Marine radio station licence - $36.00 annually - no test - but "legally required" as we sail in both our home country and the USA
HAM licence (VE9RIK) - took a test - not rocket science. I even had to do 5 wpm of code when I took it, but that has now been waved.

My vote - get them all.

Rik


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Omatako;1104710
I have an Icom SSB on my boat that is open on all frequencies. As long as I only broadcast on the marine ones said:


> Not dumb at all.
> 
> If you have the marine licence you can use the marine frequencies
> If you have the ham licence you can use the ham frequences
> ...


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

rikhall said:


> Same votes from me.
> 
> I have:
> 
> ...


I'm working on my Ham Technician licence. Do you have tech or general or extra?
Exactly how do you use the ham part of your radio on the boat and when?


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

davidpm said:


> Each level of license validates a higher level of knowledge and allows the holder legal access to more frequencies which translates into the ability to contact targets further away with more reliability. But even the first level ham gives privileges to the 6 meter band that can reach to Europe and Canada and even further from the US.


With a Technician, entry, level amateur license you get a small portion of 10m HF band, 28.3-28.5Mhz. This 10m band allows you to talk all over the world....lately this band has been the best DX band, long distance contacts. 
Just an added comment because many people, even licensed technicians forget about this privilege.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

davidpm said:


> It is slightly more complicated than this as their are three ham licenses for each of three levels each having their own test.


True. While there are limited HF privileges with a Tech license for cruising purposes a General is really the ticket. The best marine nets on ham frequencies are on 20 and 40 meters.

If you are planning to cruise Europe an Extra class license eases reciprocity.

73 es sail fast de dave KO4MI
Extra, GROL, yadda yadda yadda


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## MIsailor (Oct 2, 2012)

Bene505 said:


> ...I'm an electrial engineer by training, so the technical part of the ham tests would not be a problem.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


I'm also an electrical engineer and taking the exams for the ham licenses is not that difficult with your background. It will still take some studying to pass the General and Extra class exams unless you are active in RF as part of being an EE. I sat for all three exams on the same day and passed. If you're going to take the tests, might as well go all the way and get your Extra Class license. The ARRL license guides are great study aides with practice exams.

Dave - W8SBM


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

(Edit: Posted at the same time as the above. Perhaps ought to do all 3.)

Thank you for the replies.

If I understand this correcctly, I only need to pass tests, not have a certain number of hours in class time.

Can I just do self study on my laptop? If so, is there a free site that has the material to study, or do I need to buy books? (Easier to study on the laptop and probably cheaper.)

Thinking about doing the Technician and General tests initially.

Regards,
Brad


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## MIsailor (Oct 2, 2012)

Self study is all that's required. I bought the ARRL books as they had the practice exams on CD's that run on your PC. There are probably some free ones out there but I didn't do a lot of searching.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

rikhall said:


> I have:
> 
> VHF licence to operate - took a test
> VHF with DSC to operate - took a test
> ...


Note that different countries have different rules. Canada, the UK, and most of Europe have exams for marine licenses. The US does not. Under terms of international agreements the marine licenses are fully reciprocal in every maritime country of the world (I think - I'm not sure about North Korea). When you consider how easily countries disagree this reciprocity is truly awesome.

Reciprocity for ham radio licenses is somewhat more complex. US licensees should look here for information. Pay particular attention to IARP and CEPT and to countries you plan to visit that require specific bilateral licensure; for US East Coast cruisers the Bahamas and BVI are of particular note.



davidpm said:


> Exactly how do you use the ham part of your radio on the boat and when?


Good question. A good deal depends on your location. Gary Jensen at Dockside Radio has a good list of marine and ham nets here.

In my experience the maritime nets on ham frequencies are better than those on marine frequencies. This is at least in part because there are so many retired cruisers who have retired homes with high power radios and huge antennas. Their ability to hear and be heard is much better than those of us afloat. Hams are one of the truly greatest resources cruisers have.

Remember that you don't have to be licensed to listen. If you have a radio aboard you can listen to anything you like - marine, ham, aviation, anything.

If you don't have a radio you can get a small shortwave radio for well under $100. Make sure it has a BFO (it may be labeled SSB). The Kaito 1103 is perfectly acceptable. The most important thing you can do is get lots of wire up as high and as clear as you can. It doesn't have to be fancy - a roll of bell wire 50 or 100 feet will make a big difference in what you hear.

Back to Brad's question about using the radio: watch schedules permitting I listen to the Waterway Radio Net (7268 kHz LSB) between 0745 and 0830 US ET while I make coffee and breakfast. That net starts with weather and then check-ins. When there were family issues ashore Janet sent an e-mail to one of the shore participants each morning and they passed it to me over the air. At 0830 I switch to Cruiseheimers on 8152 kHz USB. Time permitting I listen to the Maritime Mobile Service Net (MMSN) on 14300 kHz USB. I try to check in to MMSN when I'm offshore - they get excited about someone way offshore and I can express my appreciation for them being there. 14300 kHz USB has _someone_ there all the time. The MMSN, the Pacific Seafarers Net, and the Intercon Net share the frequency to provide 24/7 coverage. There is usually someone on frequency with a phone patch so you can even talk to home if there is something you need to talk about.



Bene505 said:


> If I understand this correcctly, I only need to pass tests, not have a certain number of hours in class time.


Correct.



Bene505 said:


> Can I just do self study on my laptop? If so, is there a free site that has the material to study, or do I need to buy books? (Easier to study on the laptop and probably cheaper.)


See No-Nonsense Study Guides . I like it because it teaches the material instead of memorizing questions and answers. Search for free ham radio study on Google for lots of free practice tests.

There is some minor arithmetic to do and a calculator is useful during the test. You may not use the calculator on a smart phone - it has to be an old fashioned calculator.

In the US the Federal Communications Commission has delegated exams to Volunteer Examinations Coordinators (VECs), the largest of which include ARRL and W5YI. The VECs manage teams of Volunteer Examiners (VEs) who give the exams. Small administrative fees are permitted but not required. The Seven Seas Cruising Association (SSCA) has a VE Team under the auspices of the Laurel VEC; all Laurel VEC exams, including SSCA VE Team exams, are free.

We have an exam session in Palau in May. It's a little far for you to travel but you can't beat the surroundings. *grin* We're working on Essex CT at the Gam in June, we'll definitely have one at the Annapolis and Melbourne Gams. We're planning for study sessions and exams on the beach in Georgetown Exumas next year.

For exam schedules see: http://larcmdorg.doore.net/vec/index.php?pg=Exams14 , http://www.arrl.org/find-an-amateur-radio-license-exam-session , http://www.w5yi.org/exam_locations_ama.php .

If there are licensed hams--especially Extras--that would like to help please contact the SSCA VE Team leader, currently me. Our biggest needs are active cruisers anywhere in the world and US West Coast folks in the Puget Sound, SF Bay, and San Diego. Western Mexico would be great also.

73 es sail fast de dave KO4MI
S/V Auspicious
SSCA Board of Directors, Immediate Past President
Seven Seas U
SSCA VE Team Lead
SSCA Annapolis Cruising Station


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

Bene505 said:


> I'm an electrial engineer by training


*If you are an Engineer* you will find the general and extra ham tests simple, but very worthwhile. Even if you will only be using the Marine SSB Bands, you will find it very worth your time for the understanding of propagation and antenna theory. You need to read a few hundred fairly easy pages, the you will be able to walk in and pass the tests no problem. Should not take you more than 10 hours total, but contains great information you will find very useful.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

RainDog said:


> *If you are an Engineer* you will find the general and extra ham tests simple, but very worthwhile. Even if you will only be using the Marine SSB Bands, you will find it very worth your time for the understanding of propagation and antenna theory. You need to read a few hundred fairly easy pages, the you will be able to walk in and pass the tests no problem. Should not take you more than 10 hours total, but contains great information you will find very useful.


Challenge Accepted!










Regards,
Brad


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

SVAuspicious said:


> If you don't have a radio you can get a small shortwave radio for well under $100. Make sure it has a BFO (it may be labeled SSB). The Kaito 1103 is perfectly acceptable. The most important thing you can do is get lots of wire up as high and as clear as you can. It doesn't have to be fancy - a roll of bell wire 50 or 100 feet will make a big difference in what you hear.


You seem to be very knowledgeable about this subject so maybe you would be willing to make a specific recommendation.

I would like to get a rig for home. I'm going to classes for my technicians license.

It will be a couple years before I get a boat that will require a radio.

What would be a good rig to get?
It it could later be moved to a boat that wouldn't be a bad thing but I understand buying something now for a completely different use later often doesn't work out.

I can spend up to about $500 but if something that will do the job costs $300 I have no interested in buying something I'll never use or appreciate.
Or maybe rather than specific models I should be asking about what features I should be looking for. Really don't know enough yet to ask the question properly.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

davidpm said:


> You seem to be very knowledgeable about this subject so maybe you would be willing to make a specific recommendation.
> 
> I would like to get a rig for home. I'm going to classes for my technicians license.
> 
> ...


Okay -- do you want to legally use the marine bands, or just listen there and use in an emergency with ham radio being your principle means of long range communications?

dave


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

What SSB radio fit the bill?

(I'm half way through study since accepting the big challenge. I studied on the train, on the side of the road waiting for traffic to ease, and a few minutes here and there. Not sure I'll get there with only 10 hours of studying, since I read thoroughly and intend to go back over it again. This is for Technician, General and Expert.) 

I'll likely buy a used radio, rather than the newest model. I saw another thread that suggested the Icom 706, since it has a tuning dial, making it better that then Icom 700. Does that line-up with you experience? 

What used radios fit the bll? What would you put on the short list of your favorites?

Regards,
Brad


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

SVAuspicious said:


> Okay -- do you want to legally use the marine bands, or just listen there and use in an emergency with ham radio being your principle means of long range communications?
> 
> dave


I will get a license for marine too the way I understand it you just have to pay the fee.

And while you are thinking about radio's for me another issue is that I often captain other peoples boats. I know enough to know that portable is a little tricky because of the antenna thing but something that I could use now for a couple years that could be rigged portable and installed later in my own boat is probably not available to if it is I would like to know about it.

If I'm on a boat with a marine ssb radio that has been unlocked so the ham bands are available and I have my license can I transmit on those ham bands?

I'm asking because I was thinking that the radio needed a station licence too but I'm not sure. I'm not far enough along in my class to answer this question.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Bene505 said:


> What SSB radio fit the bill?
> 
> (I'm half way through study since accepting the big challenge. I studied on the train, on the side of the road waiting for traffic to ease, and a few minutes here and there. Not sure I'll get there with only 10 hours of studying, since I read thoroughly and intend to go back over it again. This is for Technician, General and Expert.)
> 
> ...


There are lots of radio choices. For used marine radios talk to Bill Trayfors - [email protected] - who has a good stock. eBay and eham.net are good places to look also.

The 706 is a good radio. You can only use it on the marine bands if you have a bona fide emergency. The 700 is awkward in the ham bands. The 700 is a great radio though and much more tolerant of the voltage swings we see aboard.



davidpm said:


> I will get a license for marine too the way I understand it you just have to pay the fee.


True. That doesn't mean a ham radio is legal to use for normal operation.



davidpm said:


> And while you are thinking about radio's for me another issue is that I often captain other peoples boats. I know enough to know that portable is a little tricky because of the antenna thing but something that I could use now for a couple years that could be rigged portable and installed later in my own boat is probably not available to if it is I would like to know about it.


For portable operation antennas can be managed. Receive only is easy. Transmitting is a little more complicated - you either need tuned dipoles or a portable tuner.



davidpm said:


> If I'm on a boat with a marine ssb radio that has been unlocked so the ham bands are available and I have my license can I transmit on those ham bands?


Different services have different rules, and the rules are different in various countries. In the US, a ham radio license is both a station license and an operator license. You can use any radio you have access to (subject to international reciprocity). In the US, marine radio licenses have separate station licenses (for the boat or ship) and operator licenses (for the people).


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Here's another question: If you have a VHF ship's station license (and call sign) for your VHF and also your HAM/SSB call sign, which should be used when transmitting on VHF? I realize that few people even use a call sign nowadays when using VHF but which call sign is the right one to use? 

If installing a HF radio on a boat, using any kind of portable antenna to transmit seems problematic. A good source for information is Dockside Radio. I use a twin lead GAM antenna. While not really portable, it IS removable and does not require insulators in your backstay. An antenna is only half the equation, you need a ground plane in order to transmit. The ground plane usually consists of copper foil which runs through the bilge and connects to metal parts.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

smurphny said:


> Here's another question: If you have a VHF ship's station license (and call sign) for your VHF and also your HAM/SSB call sign, which should be used when transmitting on VHF? I realize that few people even use a call sign nowadays when using VHF but which call sign is the right one to use?


Others that have more than just three classes under their belt may weigh it but I'm pretty sure you would use the call sign that was appropriate for the frequency you were using.

Specifically if you are using a ham frequency you should use the ham call sign as the ham guys may want to look you up in the big list. 
HamCall World-Wide Callsign Database

This actually bring up an issue because some people go do not get a ham license because of the requirement to be listed in a public database.
Different strokes for different folks.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

smurphny said:


> Here's another question: If you have a VHF ship's station license (and call sign) for your VHF and also your HAM/SSB call sign, which should be used when transmitting on VHF? I realize that few people even use a call sign nowadays when using VHF but which call sign is the right one to use?


When you get a ship's station license you should tick ALL the boxes. There is no extra cost and then if you add equipment later your license covers it. Regardless, the same call sign and MMSI apply.



smurphny said:


> If installing a HF radio on a boat, using any kind of portable antenna to transmit seems problematic. A good source for information is Dockside Radio. I use a twin lead GAM antenna.


+1 on Gary Jensen at Dockside Radio.

I'm not a fan of the GAM antenna. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Performance is not predictable from boat to boat.



davidpm said:


> Others that have more than just three classes under their belt may weigh it but I'm pretty sure you would use the call sign that was appropriate for the frequency you were using.


Pretty close - you use the call sign for the service you are using. On ham frequencies (the Amateur Radio Service) you use your ham call (KO4MI in my case). On marine frequencies in principle you use your marine call sign (something like WDC9882) but in practice ship or boat name is used.



davidpm said:


> Specifically if you are using a ham frequency you should use the ham call sign as the ham guys may want to look you up in the big list.
> HamCall World-Wide Callsign Database
> 
> This actually bring up an issue because some people go do not get a ham license because of the requirement to be listed in a public database.


You can look ham calls up at Callsign Database by QRZ.COM also. US licenses for all services can be looked up at the FCC ULS site: License Search . If you are properly licensed you'll be in a database somewhere.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I've heard negative things about the GAM antenna but mine works great, probably because I ran the copper from stem to stern and grounded everything, including rails, stanchions, water heater, engine, etc. The boat also has a small sintered plate. I think establishing a really good ground plane is important, although some folks seem to do fine with a KISS unit.

I only use my HAM call sign, KD2DJX, on the SSB of course but since the HAM license supercedes my original VHF license, I question whether, in identifying myself over the VHF, I should use the higher level HAM call. I also wonder whether a higher level of formality, such as the time i.d. requirements of any HF communication applies to a HAM licensed operator over any frequency, including VHF frequencies.


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## windward54 (Apr 12, 2000)

smurphny said:


> I've heard negative things about the GAM antenna but mine works great, probably because I ran the copper from stem to stern and grounded everything, including rails, stanchions, water heater, engine, etc. The boat also has a small sintered plate. I think establishing a really good ground plane is important, although some folks seem to do fine with a KISS unit..


I had the Gam as well and it worked great. Only problem I had with it was the GTO-15 feed line wicked up moisture. Because it is a sealed unit, the whole antenna had to be shipped back to the manufacturer for repair. Fine if you are near shore, not so fine if you are away from the dock. I had the Gam repaired and I keep it sealed up as a spare, and use a traditional backstay antenna.

And per Gordon West, I only grounded to a single thru hull and everything worked fine. Now I'm using a KISS and it works great as well.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I would like to try the KISS unit for when my copper oxidizes into dust. Copper IS a major PITA because it will deteriorate unless completely glassed over which is really not practical. It also is sharp as he!! as I've discovered more than once. I removed the insulators when replacing the backstay to eliminate those extra 4 points of potential failure. One other negative feature of the GAM antenna which should be mentioed is that it precludes attaching anything to the backstay. I have a nice suspended canvas shade cover, the aft attachment of which is supposed to attach to the backstay so I have to attach it somewhere else.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

David-
"If I'm on a boat with a marine ssb radio that has been unlocked so the ham bands are available and I have my license can I transmit on those ham bands?"
A ham operator can legally transmit, in the ham bands and per the regulations, on ANYTHING including a rebuilt UFO or Soviet submarine gear. However, the burden is always 100% on the operator--as opposed to the manufacturer or anyone else--to ensure that equipment is now transmitting in compliance with ham regulations. Including bandwidth, adjacent channel interference, and other parameters that you cannot establish without technical gear and knowledge.
So as a ham, either you rely on a manufacturer of "type accepted" ham gear, or you build and test your own. The only exception to this is "in an emergency" in which case the FCC condones anyone using anything that is needed for the _immediate _saving of life, etc.

Smurph-
" but since the HAM license supercedes my original VHF license,"
NO, it doesn't. These are separate licenses for separate services. Using your ham license call on an unmodified marine VHF would be doubly illegal, because it does _not _authorize you to use that equipment. As a ham you are only authorized to use non-ham equipment, on non-ham frequencies, to the same extent as everyone else: Emergency use only, in which case anything goes.
But as a ham? You are only licensed to use ham equipment, under ham regulations.

You use the ship's station under ship's station license terms, with the appropriate identification. It really is that simple. And even if you were on fire and sinking--you'd use the ship's station call, not your ham call.

Folks who don't get this stuff, need to read the appropriate FCC "Part" that governs their license and service, rather than just taking an exam study guide. The regulations really are pretty clear about most of this stuff, it is a good way to stay out of trouble since the FCC is fairly generous about cutting slack in emergencies, but also fairly generous about levying four-figure fines for improper operations.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

hellosailor said:


> David-
> "If I'm on a boat with a marine ssb radio that has been unlocked so the ham bands are available and I have my license can I transmit on those ham bands?"
> A ham operator can legally transmit, in the ham bands and per the regulations, on ANYTHING including a rebuilt UFO or Soviet submarine gear. However, the burden is always 100% on the operator--as opposed to the manufacturer or anyone else--to ensure that equipment is now transmitting in compliance with ham regulations. Including bandwidth, adjacent channel interference, and other parameters that you cannot establish without technical gear and knowledge.
> So as a ham, either you rely on a manufacturer of "type accepted" ham gear, or you build and test your own. The only exception to this is "in an emergency" in which case the FCC condones anyone using anything that is needed for the _immediate _saving of life, etc.
> ...


The original operator's license, the one requiring no test but required for VHF communications is most certainly upgraded/replaced by the HAM Technician, General, etc. license. The ship station authorization is a completely different piece of paper, specifically for a particular boat. Are you saying that the FCC licensed operator of a VHF radio cannot by law use his/her primary FCC license call sign on VHF frequencies?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"The original operator's license, the one requiring no test but required for VHF communications is most certainly upgraded/replaced by the HAM Technician, General, etc. license."
Nope. They are different licenses, for different Radio Services, and they are totally unrelated. If you have a driver's license and an aircraft pilot's license, does one supercede the other? No.
If you have an amateur radio (Amateur Radio Service) technician class license, and you then upgrade it to an Amateur Radio General Class license, you've upgraded within the same Radio Service. That's different. But ham operators have _no _authorization to use any marine radios on marine frequencies at all.

"The ship station authorization is a completely different piece of paper, specifically for a particular boat. Are you saying that the FCC licensed operator of a VHF radio cannot by law use his/her primary FCC license call sign on VHF frequencies?"
Yes. There's no such thing as a "primary FCC license". Check out 
FCC: Wireless Services: Ship Radio Stations: Licensing
to see who needs a ship's station license, and when you don't need a license of any kind.

Different "radio services", different regulations. The operating requirements and privileges don't overlap. That's why licensees used to be strongly encouraged to own and read the entire (yawn) set of regulations for the service they were licensed in. And checking the annual updates and changes, as well.

Even when one radio is certified, or suitable, or modified, so that it can be used by two different licenses on two different services, it isn't necessarily legal to use it that way. Unca Sam still wants a ship's station SSB to be a fully independent and separate installation from any amateur radio SSB that is onboard. Use the wrong call sign...and you've just confessed to a violation. Often ignored, perhaps always ignored, but a violation all the same.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

I am completely dumbfounded that there is still confusion on this very simple point:

A ham radio license allows you to transmit *ONLY* on the amateur radio bands using any radio, home built or commercial. Period. End of statement.

It does not allow you to do anything else. You can't transmit on the aircraft bands, or the military bands, or the marine bands, or the land mobile bands, or the police bands, or the USCG bands, etc., etc. *ONLY the ham bands.* *

YES, I'M SHOUTING, BECAUSE THIS HAS BEEN COVERED AD NAUSEUM FOR THE PAST FEW YEARS.
*

That should be clear enough for anyone to understand, even those who have no knowledge of radio. *A HAM license is ONLY for the HAM bands.*

If you want to transmit on any of the other bands (called "services"), i.e., the marine bands -- VHF or other -- then you need the proper licenses to do so. Unless, that is, you are in the U.S. and you only use VHF marine radios and you don't talk to foreign stations. Then, there's a special no-permit exclusion which allows you to use a VHF marine radio.

Otherwise, if you're outside the U.S. or you talk to a foreign station on VHF, or if you have a HF/SSB radio in the U.S. or abroad, then you must have two things:

1. a marine operators license; and
2. a ship's station license.

These are issued by the FCC upon application and payment of a fee (no exam).

Now, is that so difficult to understand?

Bill


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

btrayfors said:


> Otherwise, if you're outside the U.S. or you talk to a foreign station on VHF, or if you have a HF/SSB radio in the U.S. or abroad, then you must have two things:
> 
> 1. a marine operators license; and
> 2. a ship's station license.
> ...


Hey, a.h. You need an AMATEUR RADIO LICENSE license to transmit on SSB. If you're referring to a MROP, that's a commercial license-completely different. CONFUSED?


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> ...Even when one radio is certified, or suitable, or modified, so that it can be used by two different licenses on two different services, it isn't necessarily legal to use it that way. Unca Sam still wants a ship's station SSB to be a fully independent and separate installation from any amateur radio SSB that is onboard. Use the wrong call sign...and you've just confessed to a violation. Often ignored, perhaps always ignored, but a violation all the same.


Why? Why can't I use my marine radio for Ham use, after I get a Ham license?

Surely a taxi driver can use his cab to pick up some milk at the store. (Two different licenses, same equipment.) A captain of his own charter plane can use his plane to go for a pleasure flight. (Two different licenses, same equipment).

Where does it say that re-using SSB equipment is illegal? And to be clear on my question, this is when the operator, the ship, etc., etc. are fully licensed in every way for everything the radio can do.

.

This makes no sense at all. (The other parts of licensing I get.)

Regards,
Brad


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

smurphny said:


> Hey, a.h. You need an AMATEUR RADIO LICENSE license to transmit on SSB. If you're referring to a MROP, that's a commercial license-completely different. CONFUSED?


That, sir, is 100% absolutely WRONG.

I have an MROP. And an Amateur Extra Class License. and a GROL license.

I teach this stuff (ARRL certified), and am a VE (Volunteer Examiner).

Have done this stuff for many decades.

Perhaps your confusion derives from your failing to recognize that the term "SSB" refers to a *mode of transmission*, not a specific type of radio.

Both ham radios and marine radios (and, by the way, aircraft radios and military radios and land mobile radios and all sorts of others) can transmit in SSB mode.

Ham licenses are for transmission on the ham bands ONLY.

Transmission on the marine bands requires specific *operator permits* (of which the MROP is just one type) and *boat station licenses*.

Bill


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

The "marine" SSB is a hf radio. The frequencies as allocated by the FCC are hf frequencies. Some of the frequencies on a "marine" radio require only a "Restricted Radiotelephone" license, requiring no test and a ship's station license. If you want to transmit on frequencies other than these or use Sailmail,Winlink, etc. then you need a General license. Although there seems to be confusion here, that's the way I understand it.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Bene505 said:


> Why? Why can't I use my marine radio for Ham use, after I get a Ham license?
> 
> Surely a taxi driver can use his cab to pick up some milk at the store. (Two different licenses, same equipment.) A captain of his own charter plane can use his plane to go for a pleasure flight. (Two different licenses, same equipment).
> 
> ...


Brad,

HelloSailor has it right. It is what it is, even if you don't like it. And, lots of people don't like it, and often pay no attention.....they use their marine SSB on both the marine bands and the ham bands (if they have a ham license).

A licensed ham can use ANY radio on the ham bands, including one certified for other services. No argument there.

HOWEVER, strictly complying with the internationally-developed regulations for shipboard radio can be interpreted to mean that the marine radio must be separate and independent of other transmitting equipment, including ham radios.

I think that in practice this provision is observed more in the breach than in compliance.

Bill


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Bill, are you saying that it is technically not legal to release/unlock/transmit on the ham bands on an SSB radio?


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

smurphny said:


> The "marine" SSB is a hf radio. The frequencies as allocated by the FCC are hf frequencies. Some of the frequencies on a "marine" radio require only a "Restricted Radiotelephone" license, requiring no test and a ship's station license. If you want to transmit on frequencies other than these or use Sailmail,Winlink, etc. then you need a General license. Although there seems to be confusion here, that's the way I understand it.


Well, at least you've got this partly right. A marine SSB radio is, indeed, a hf radio....actually a MF/HF radio. You can use it on ANY allocated marine frequency if you have at least the Restricted Radiotelephone Operators Permit AND a ship's station license. Both are available without test, upon payment of a fee to the FCC.

You can, indeed, use the marine SSB on Sailmail....because SailMail operates within the allocated marine frequencies.

You cannot, however, use the marine SSB for WinLink (which operates on the HAM frequencies) unless you have an amateur radio license...at least a General Class.

Bill


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Yes, that is the way I understand it but do you technically need separate equipment as you indicated above? If so, almost every sailboat I know is not in compliance because the same radio is used for marine frequencies and regular ham frequencies.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

smurphny said:


> Bill, are you saying that it is technically not legal to release/unlock/transmit on the ham bands on an SSB radio?


Not quite.

If you have a ham license, as said above, you can use ANY radio to transmit on the ham bands. That's clear.

However, in doing so you may technically violate a couple of things pertaining to subsequent use of that radio on the marine bands:

1. the international regulations for shipboard stations requiring they be totally independent of other transmitting equipment; and

2. depending on what's required to "open" the radio, you may also modify the radio in such way as to invalidate the original FCC certification for marine use.

I wouldn't worry too much about these, however.

One good reason to "open" a marine SSB for transmission on any frequency is as a potential for use in an extreme emergency. In such cases, it is OK to use any frequency to attract attention and get help.

Ditto for modification of ham radios to operate on the marine bands. Good thing to do, IMHO, to have the potential...if needed...to transmit on the ham bands in an extreme emergency. Just a couple of weeks ago we used ham radio over a period of several days to get help to a cruiser who had run aground on a remote reef.

Bill


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Most of the radios are easily "opened" now and don't require reprogramming by a professional. Most people I know are apparently in violation of the law because the SSB gets used on HAM frequencies, as well as the specified marine frequencies. I'm sure very few HAM licensed skippers are aware that they are doing anything wrong when using their equipment to chat on marine nets and later receive Winlink email.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

smurphny said:


> Yes, that is the way I understand it but do you technically need separate equipment as you indicated above? If so, almost every sailboat I know is not in compliance because the same radio is used for marine frequencies and regular ham frequencies.


Yes, technically you'd need two radios. And, if you carried out the letter of the regulations, they'd need to be entirely separate....no sharing of power supplies or transmission lines or antennas. As you say, not many yachts would be in total compliance or even partial compliance.

I have both a ham radio and a marine SSB aboard my boat (see pic below). Not really hard to do, and not nearly as expensive as many believe.

These two very excellent ham and marine radios, together cost less than an Icom M802. They don't have HF/DSC capability (which I don't care about given my cruising grounds), but all the bells and whistles that a ham cares about are there.

NavStn_0140

Bill


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Nice setup. I have just a single ICOM 700pro with an ICOM tuner. It works well but now you've got me concerned about this nonsensical regulation. How do you separate power supply on a boat? Separate house banks?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Smurph-
"Bill, are you saying that it is technically not legal to release/unlock/transmit on the ham bands on an SSB radio? "
That depends on who you are. For a civilian, with no other status, to tamper with any certified ("type approved") radio, takes that radio OUT OF APPROVAL and it then becomes illegal to use that radio in the approved service.
This is not the same thing as a ham radio operator, who is sanctioned to experiment and build and kludge together anything they please--_if they use it only in the amateur radio service,_ and they _personally _become responsible for all technical compliance issues.

Unless hams have gotten especially stupid of late, they all know very well that it is illegal to modify equipment and use it willy nilly. They all know that using a modified marine radio as a ham radio, and vice versa, violates FCC regulations, which mirror international accords. We also all know that as a practical matter, the USCG has no authority to regulate these matters, only the FCC does. And since the FCC has no high seas patrol vessels, as a practical matter the FCC will ignore the matter _unless a complaint is filed. _
In which case they can and will attempt to find the offending vessel and start issuing fines in the four and five figure range while confiscating equipment.
Has this ever been known to happen? Probably not, but it is the law. In the 70's many commercial fishermen used Drake radios, made for the State Department and government services and sold to hams as well. They were milspec radios in every way and a real steal compared to marine gear. 
And anyone who had a shortwave set could tell you which radio a fisherman was using, because the audio quality is so very different, partly because the bandwidth is different, which is partly why it was and is illegal to use the equipment in the wrong band. That creates splatter and adjacent 'channel' interference and degrades radio communications for everyone.
But with more modern equipment? "Everyone knows" that if you don't create interference, the FCC is not going to send anyone offshore looking for you. If you're in the harbor or inside territorial waters...a great deal more discretion is advised.
Somehow, you missed the memo. Memorizing the question pool and passing the exam does not qualify you for good operating practice, it only opens the door. There's lots more reading and exploring to do.

And like Bill says, this (expletive) has been discussed to death online for at least 20 years and the answers haven't changed. It is really TOO EASY to just RTFM. The regs are all published, all online, all actually written in something very close to Ynglitch.

The FCC sends out notifications of violation every week, every month, for every service. Often for four figures and even six figures. Sometimes to stores that have been openly selling modified CBs, or illegal wireless phones, or sometimes...just to ham radio operators who have been breaking the rules. They are pretty damn close to the IRS, in terms of saying "Pay up, _or else."_


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I've looked through the records of FCC fines which they publish and know they do issue fines but usually after warning notices of some obvious repeated infractions. It seems to me that installing completely independent systems to separate marine and HAM frequencies on a small boat is impractical and maybe technically impossible. How do you separate ground planes? power source? Will do some research on this to determine the exact verbiage in the regs. Interesting.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

smurph, consider the question you are confronting. How can you install separate ground planes? Ground planes? Dunno, what's that? Counterpoise, sure, just run two separate wires, same way that you will run two separate antennas. (Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, as Monty Python would say.)

On the other hand, it is technically impossible to run two fully isolated GROUNDS. Remember, all grounds return to earth, so unless you're on another planet, or running without a ground, the regulations can't ask you to do the impossible. 

Similarly, a little common sense says that if the two radios are on separate runs back to the battery or ship's power...that is as good as it can get, and no one will bother you over it.

The purpose of marine radios is SAFETY. Safety of lives and ships at sea. And that's why the FCC and IRU don't want some experimenter or hobbyist screwing around, crossbreeding the highly certified and regulated MARINE SAFETY OF LIFE radio, with the anything-goes ham set, which is expected to be having technical difficulties and equipment failures from time to time. "Ham" grade equipment is simply not commercial grade, it is a step below commercial. Just as military is a step above.

So as Lou Reed said, you don't pull on Superman's cape. A little discretion, a little respect, a little common sense...and most importantly, if no one has reason to complain, no one is interested in prosecuting.


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## trakker (Oct 30, 2013)

btrayfors said:


> I have both a ham radio and a marine SSB aboard my boat (see pic below). Not really hard to do, and not nearly as expensive as many believe.
> 
> These two very excellent ham and marine radios, together cost less than an Icom M802. They don't have HF/DSC capability (which I don't care about given my cruising grounds), but all the bells and whistles that a ham cares about are there.
> Bill


Bill, I am a total newb to this. Could you please share SSB and HAM radio models that you have in your setup?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Yes, and it makes sense that the FCC would want more people to get involved in this science and avoid discouraging folks with draconian, Catch-22 type enforcement. HAM radio is a real safety tool, one that seems to be dwindling in the age of instant communication. Here's another question for you experts: If I string an antenna off a tree and hook my boat radio up at home, using HAM frequencies only, am I breaking any rules? Would be fun to see if I can get any propagation here in the boonies.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

smurphny said:


> ...If I string an antenna off a tree and hook my boat radio up at home, using HAM frequencies only, am I breaking any rules? Would be fun to see if I can get any propagation here in the boonies.


I'll save Bill a reply:

"If you have a ham license, as said above, you can use ANY radio to transmit on the ham bands. That's clear."

SM -- I intend to do what you describe, if only to practice before heading offshore. (That and to talk to other Sailnetters, if we can arrange a meeting frequency and time.)

Regards,
Brad


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

Now that the question of 1-radio-for-both-use is settled (ok but be careful), what radio is best???

I've heard the a rotating dial is best to have for hams, but it is missing from the marine radios. Does this bring us to the ICOM 706? What radios are best for this, besides the ICOM 706?

Regards,
Brad


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

" If I string an antenna off a tree and hook my boat radio up at home, using HAM frequencies only, am I breaking any rules? "
If you use it just as a receiver, no worries.
IF your boat radio is (dual) type accepted for ham use, and you use it as a ham radio transmitter under your ham license, again no problems. If it is not type accepted, no problems as long as it does not create interference and raise the question of whether you properly tested it before use.
And of course as a marine ship's radio, it isn't allowed to transmit on land at all. (Limited exceptions for yacht clubs & marinas, where the license itself is different.)

Brad-
One caution on any Icom 706, especially the older ones. The transistor finals went out of production long ago. A pricey replacement final board with newer transistors also went out of production some time ago. So if there's an accident that blows the finals, it may range from "difficult" to "economically unfeasible" to repair the radio. They're also apparently sensitive to overvoltage, some caps in them are rated at only 15VDC which leaves zero safety margin when they are run on a 14.4v alternator system, since the caps themselves have a 10% tolerance and "15" voltage ratings can fail at 13.5. Still, they are fine radios and much loved. Icom took a lot of flack over this in their final years.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

trakker said:


> Bill, I am a total newb to this. Could you please share SSB and HAM radio models that you have in your setup?


Sure.

The ham radio is a Yaesu FT-900CAT. It was a very popular radio for use both in fixed and in mobile operations. It is compact, has a removable control head, and has most bells and whistles hams look for. It can be found on the used market in excellent condition for about $700.

The marine radio is a Yaesu FT-600 (AKA "System 600"). This was designed for use in three different radio services: marine, ham, and land-mobile. A little plug-in module on the front panel selects the desired service, and sets the radio up for use. This radio is rare on the used market, but when found can be had for about $600-700 in excellent condition.

Both radios are the same size, use the same mounting bracket, and the same microphone. This made them ideal for my use.

There are many other radios -- both ham and marine -- which are suitable for use on a cruising yacht. One determining factor, especially in the choice of a marine radio, is whether or not you will want to use it for HF email (e.g., with Pactor modems). Some very good marine radios are really not suitable for this use, though they can be modified. Among these are the Icom M700 and the Kenwood TKM-707, the latter being my favorite marine radio of all. I have two of them at present, and use them every day on the maritime nets.

Most marine radios -- not all -- lack a true VFO (variable frequency oscillator). This is the "tuning knob" which allows you to tune up and down the band to any desired frequency. Among these are the very popular and very excellent Icom M-710 and M700Pro. The lack of a true VFO means they aren't as convenient for use on the ham bands, since hams like to be able to tune anywhere easily. But, if your main interest is in net operations on fixed frequencies, then these radios work very well.

Some marine radios like the Icom M-802, the aforementioned Kenwood TKM-707 and the Yaesu FT-600 do have true VFOs, so are convenient for use on both the marine and the ham bands. The 802, of course, is also very easy to use for HF email and it is the only one within the price range of ordinary mortals which has HF/DSC capability.

Lots of choices. Which way you go depends very much on your intended use as well as your budget.

Bill


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Bene505 said:


> I'll save Bill a reply:
> 
> "If you have a ham license, as said above, you can use ANY radio to transmit on the ham bands. That's clear."
> 
> ...


Brad, I brought the radio home (M700pro) after the last sailing trip, intending to set it up here to practice, as you're saying. The only things I use it for on the boat are to access the Winlink system and to receive Weatherfax charts. I have yet to use it for chatting on nets and such. Now need to figure out how to construct an antenna and get some kind of tuner for home. There are so many kinds of antennas, I don't know enough about it to tell which might be best. Maybe the experts here can advise on a type of antenna to make or buy without spending a fortune. I did not bring the tuner or antenna back, so will have to look into something just for home. I'm kind of in a valley so have doubts as to propagation in my location except at a high angle but it will be interesting to try.

The ICOM M700pro is quite a bit less expensive than the newer 802 and has the override circuits to plug in the Pactor. The hook-up is fairly easy. I got all my parts and a lot of good advice from Dockside Radio.


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## El Rubio (Mar 31, 2013)

davidpm said:


> You seem to be very knowledgeable about this subject so maybe you would be willing to make a specific recommendation.
> 
> I would like to get a rig for home. I'm going to classes for my technicians license.
> 
> ...


I have had good dealings with hams on QTH.com. It's a busy classified that is mostly ham radio related gear. If you're patient and ready to buy, some really good deals can be found there. Someone posted an Icom IC-745 with extra filters for $390 + shipping from Texas. That's a nice rig and filters are expensive add ons to any radio. Kind of useless if they're not for your type of operating though such as narrow cw filters but you just want ssb.

If I were looking, I would shop the classifieds on the site above, qrz.com, & eham.net. Then, check the reviews at eham.net and see what others say about it. Consider one of the "dc to daylight" rigs like IC-706, FT-857/897, etc. For a few dollars more, you can cover other bands that you might otherwise purchase a second or third or fourth radio for. For me, the receiver performance is most important and features like the ability to add filters, shift control, pass band tuning, switchable attenuation, RF gain, etc, are what makes it possible to tune in weak stations. 73


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

smurphny said:


> Hey, a.h. You need an AMATEUR RADIO LICENSE license to transmit on SSB. If you're referring to a MROP, that's a commercial license-completely different. CONFUSED?


[Rant on] 

*No*. You are. SSB is a *mode* not a service. As has been explained before ad naseum there are different *services* that require different licenses. Can you pilot an airplane with an automobile drivers license? Can you captain a cruise liner with a private pilots license? Can you broadcast a television signal and compete with ABC, CBS, and NBC with a "six pack?" No... (repeated ad infinitum.)

The services of relevance for US citizens and US Flagged boats are:

Maritime Mobile Service 
FCC: Wireless Services: Maritime Mobile Service: Maritime Mobile Home This page also lists the exclusions from licensing e.g. you do not need a license to operate on the maritime VHF channels in the US talking to another boat or shore station in the US.
Amateur Radio Service FCC: Wireless Services: Amateur Radio Service: Amateur Home

With apologies to the Broadway show "Bells are Ringing" "Its a simple little system, any child could understand..."

If you want to transmit on the marine bands your ship (not you) needs a "Ships Station License" and you (not the ship) need a Restricted Radiotelephone Operator Permit.

If you want to transmit on the amateur radio bands you need an amateur radio license.

If you are in extremis you can transmit on any frequency in any mode at any power_ in the United States or on the high seas.
_

Perhaps if you look at this page: FCC: Wireless Services it will be clearer. It will also give you the opportunity to start a television station or create your own public wireless internet service.

*In the territorial waters/on land outside the United States:*

Marine Mobile Service - no additional license is required as long as you are on your boat!
Amateur Radio Service - a license or reciprocal license from the host country may be required. Go to American Radio Relay League | ARRL - The national association for AMATEUR RADIO for help with specific country information.

Note that these rules only apply to US flagged boats and US citizens. If you are on a boat with a different flag or you are a citizen of another country the country flagging the boat or of your citizenship apply.

If you want to stop getting bad information I suggest you read the links above rather than trusting to people who don't know what they are talking about on the Internet. It is really very simple:

RTFM !

Yes I am shouting along with the rest of us who have repeated and repeated this information over and over and over again.

[/Rant off] 

Fair winds and following seas


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

First of all, the rudeness of these responses and the "shouting" is inappropriate. This forum is a place for people like me to learn more about these topics. I am always willing to politely share knowledge of subjects that I know and expect polite responses from others who know more than I about subjects. If you want to be intolerant of those seeking answers and don't want to repeat something you may have said in past posts just STHU. We don't need your intolerant, holier-than-thou venom!

Second, referring to your rant above, SSB is a term commonly used to describe the type of hf radio usually found on boats.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

smurphny said:


> First of all, the rudeness of these responses and the "shouting" is inappropriate. This forum is a place for people like me to learn more about these topics. I am always willing to politely share knowledge of subjects that I know and expect polite responses from others who know more than I about subjects. If you want to be intolerant of those seeking answers and don't want to repeat something you may have said in past posts just STHU. We don't need your intolerant, holier-than-thou venom!.


Nor do we need the repeated misinformation. I clearly marked my response a rant. It is at least the second time in this thread that I have shared this information. I know of two others who have also shared this correct information only to see it contradicted by those who are sharing incorrect information. I don't respond to these posts for some emotional release but rather to help my fellow sailors.

The purpose of my "rant" was to get the attention of those who keep contradicting the facts (provided by the links to the FCC web site) not to annoy you. For that I am sorry and I apologize. I have spent a lot of time on this forum (and others) posting links to relevant and correct information and answering other's questions. If you read all of my posts you will see that I have explained that SSB is a mode several times. And yes I am aware that many cruisers call their HF/MF radio an SSB. Then they get confused when they want to use if for a different purpose so calling it the wrong thing is self-defeating. I spend a good deal of time making sure that my posts are factually correct, literate, and concise.It is most frustrating to see others contradict the factual answers to questions after I (and others) have spent a great deal of time trying to get the correct information to the original poster of the question.

You say that you are offended by me (and others) who have been shouting. The simple solution for me is to save time, energy and emotion and stop posting. That is, after all, the solution you proposed to my offending you. Perhaps that is what I will do. Again I apologize for offending you (and others I am sure.)

Fair winds and following seas.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Roger, People like yourself, who have an in depth knowledge of a topic, sometimes don't realize how daunting the subject is to those who are new to it because you have internalized the concepts long ago. Being a retired teacher, I know how easy it is to lose the audience This radio subject has so many nuances, rules, and technical aspects that it is difficult to understand. As others have mentioned, passing the rote-memory test is pretty much meaningless as far as actually knowing the subject. I also apologize for any rancor on my part. Let's tone it down.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

btrayfors said:


> ...The 802, of course, is also very easy to use for HF email and it is the only one within the price range of ordinary mortals which has HF/DSC capability...


Bill,

Excellent post. Thank you.

What is the story with DSC. Is it a great thing to have? Or something you hardly use?

Regards,
Brad


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

Bene505 said:


> What is the story with DSC? Is it a great thing to have? Or something you hardly use?
> Brad


DSC, or digital selective calling, is a way of "ringing" a single station rather than calling on channel 16, getting in touch, and shifting to a working channel. This requires that you know the MMSI (maritime mobile service identifier) of the person you want to call just like you need a telephone number in order to call another telephone. There are two limitations to this system: first, as mentioned you need to know the MMSI. Second, and perhaps more important, most people don't know what to do when their radio starts making funny noises. If you have an AIS system it should tell you the MMSI of the targets that it is tracking. That way you have overcome problem #1 when you want to get in touch with the guy who is *CBDR.* That translates to "constant bearing, decreasing range." In other words on a collision course. This does not, however, solve problem #2. In my experience it is better to call on channel 16 (the AIS gives you the name of the vessel too.) If they don't answer then by all means give DSC a try. It might wake up the bridge watch stander when the alarms go off! 

This might suggest that DSC is not very useful. However, it does have two very important features. First, your radio (if new enough) has a little red "distress button." This will set off an alarm on every radio within range telling them you are in trouble. If you have hooked up a GPS to your radio it will also tell them exactly where you are. Nice feature. Second, your radio will alarm if someone else within radio range is in trouble. Not only does this provide the opportunity to help out, it may alter you to "danger close."

More on DSC at 



. You will still have to track down what the other modes (like group calling) do, but there is a comprehensive list at this site.

The combination of a transmit/receive AIS, a DSC capable radio with an MMSI loaded (you get this for international travel at the FCC web site for a ships station license FCC: Wireless Services: Maritime Mobile Service: Maritime Mobile Home, a GPS and most important operator training is a pretty powerful safety suite.

An aside (as they say in the drama and comedy business Yes, you can get an MMSI from sources other than the FCC but they are good for domestic use only. Since a ships station license is good for 10 years it is for many worth it to go to the extra trouble and expense of acquiring an FCC license.

A second aside: If you purchase a transmit/receive AIS (rather than a receive only AIS you are required to have an MMSI.

A third aside: Note that under FCC regulations You do not need a license to operate a marine VHF radio, radar, or EPIRBs aboard US Flagged voluntary ships operating domestically. In other words if you take your boat to the Bahamas and turn on the radar you need a ships station license (you also need one to talk on your VHF.) Historically these provisions have not been enforced. However, more and more frequently in international travel boaters are getting in trouble for not having the proper documentation. (Sometimes they get in trouble even when they have the proper documentation - as happened in Mexico at Christmas.) So my caution is: learn the regulations and be properly licensed. It may save you a bunch of heartache somewhere down the road. 

Fair winds and following seas.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

For the Bahamas, I applied for and rec'd. a reciprocal (Class Spectrum Licence) license from URCA. Are there any issues, other than getting the license, that need to be taken into consideration with the recip. license?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

smurph-
"SSB is a term commonly used to describe"
Yes, yes, and there must be a term that is more appropriate than "sloppy misnomer" to describe what we Colonials do all the time, using vague and confusing words inappropriately and relying on context and jargon club members to assign them meanings.
Is a "John" a whore's customer? Or is it a toilet? Are "Italian Racing Tires" something made by Pirelli for Ferrari? Or do I mean the cheap bald tires found on too many cars?

You really might want to look at arrl.org the association that organizes ham radio in the US. They also have some excellent publications, old-fashioned paper books (G) that can be bought inexpensively used, like the "ARRL Antenna Book" or the "Operator's Guide" (something like that) which is intended to give new hams a wider understanding of how and why things are done. That one is the size of a phone directory. Any fairly recent edition of either will be about the same as the latest new one, and perversely you can buy the new ones from a dozen sources cheaper than buying them directly from the ARRL even if you are a member. Go figure.

But when it comes to choosing an antenna...physics, mysticism, religion, budget, all play a role in the choice. Once you've seen the options, including the diagrams of directionality and other technical issues, you can decide whether a roll of surplus wire is good enough to get you started, or whether you want something more sophisticated. Both books are very worthwhile to keep on hand. If there's a ham radio club in your area, odds are someone can lend them to you, or might give them to you.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Unfortunately, I left all my ARRL and HAM books on the boat so will have to get the info. on antennas online. Being that I'm in a valley and not ready to erect a tower, will need the best type for a steeper angle. I doubt I'll even be able to get a 45 degree l.o.s. out of here, a lot different than on the boat where it's essentially horizon to horizon. Maybe it'll work, maybe not. It will be interesting to see the propagation screen in Airmail. On the boat, I have been able to get some strong transmission with a "short skip" so am hoping that may work from here.

By the way, I've noticed that if you say, "single sideband" or "Hf radio" to boaters, they usually don't know what you mean. In general most people are somewhat familiar with the idea of "HAM Radio." Very few people are actually involved in this interesting field which is a mystery to me. I guess the radio world just doesn't get much press. In a disaster, when the cell phones and instant comm. stops working, the only thing left might well be old style airwave radio.

This looks like something easy to do and pretty useful.http://www.eham.net/articles/5747


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Very few people are actually involved in this interesting field which is a mystery to me."
Another long and ongoing debate about the who's and why's. The (shhh! don't tell!) main impetus for ham radio in the US was originally to build a trained civilian draftee base for Army radio operators. Who needed to know Morse Code. Very convenient to have a printed list (the licensee list) of people with special skills and equipment that might be needed very quickly. These days? It is easy to argue there's no need at all for ham radio, beyond tradition and accommodation. I'm not saying that's so--just that it is an easy argument.

In a hole (valley) you might look into "NVIS" antennas. Might not get you any marine contacts, but it should get you 100-200 miles in diameter around you, without the mountains being any problem.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I wouldn't be able to legally use marine frequencies anyway but it would be nice to be able to connect with a Winlink hub and talk to local HAM enthusiasts. One of the clubs around me has apparently gone belly-up but there is an active club in Johnstown, NY where I got my license. Will check out the NVIS antenna.

Using Winlink, I've had mixed results. My emails seem to all get through but people have told me they sent emails which I never rec'd. Has anyone else had an issue with the reliability of Winlink?


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

smurphny said:


> Using Winlink, I've had mixed results. My emails seem to all get through but people have told me they sent emails which I never rec'd. Has anyone else had an issue with the reliability of Winlink?


Go to http://winlink.org and read the material on whitelists and spam handling. If your correspondents aren't putting //WL2K R/ at the beginning of the subject line they won't get through unless 1. you have written to them at the address they are using first or 2. you manually add them to your whitelist.

dave


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## OPossumTX (Jul 12, 2011)

smurphny said:


> I wouldn't be able to legally use marine frequencies anyway but it would be nice to be able to connect with a Winlink hub and talk to local HAM enthusiasts. One of the clubs around me has apparently gone belly-up but there is an active club in Johnstown, NY where I got my license. Will check out the NVIS antenna.
> 
> Using Winlink, I've had mixed results. My emails seem to all get through but people have told me they sent emails which I never rec'd. Has anyone else had an issue with the reliability of Winlink?


There are some features of the Winlink system that could be blocking your incoming messages. I believe you may be bumping into these safeguards. There is a "white list" feature to exclude spam. You should be able to receive messages from anyone if the message originates in the system (via radio). Also, you should be able to receive messages from any address you have sent mail to through the system. Also I believe there is a message size limit.

I am not using Winlink but I have been trained on it through my County ARES group.

Have FUN!
O'

Edited to add: What Dave said.∆


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

I suggest you give Winlink its own thread. It really is off topic here, and there are a lot of little bits that one has to know. For example, winlink, Sailmail, Faxes, use of modems, etc.

Just saying


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

SVAuspicious said:


> Go to http://winlink.org and read the material on whitelists and spam handling. If your correspondents aren't putting //WL2K R/ at the beginning of the subject line they won't get through unless 1. you have written to them at the address they are using first or 2. you manually add them to your whitelist.
> 
> dave


The prefix could be the issue. One friend who I had established two-way communication with previously, sent a second message which was NOT a reply to my original message. It did not get through. I will have to make this clear to anyone I give the Airmail address to. Did not see this on the Winlink site, which I've been to many times, especially trying to update working portal sites. Apparently, the person in S.Africa who used to keep the list current died and the old update procedure does not work via radio anymore. I was able to update through the Winlink website although it's less than easy to do this way.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

smurphny said:


> The prefix could be the issue.


Most likely.



smurphny said:


> I will have to make this clear to anyone I give the Airmail address to.


Airmail is client software on your computer. Shore-side services include Winlink (which has the whitelist requirement discussed above by others and by me), Sailmail, and others. The address you are talking about is a Winlink address.



smurphny said:


> Apparently, the person in S.Africa who used to keep the list current died and the old update procedure does not work via radio anymore.


Joost Schuitemaker, ZS5S passed a couple of years ago. The service of an easy catalog update that he provided to cruisers and other Winlink users is much missed as is Joost himself.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

SVAuspicious said:


> The address you are talking about is a Winlink address.


Absolutely correct.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

hellosailor said:


> The FCC sends out notifications of violation every week, every month, for every service. Often for four figures and even six figures. Sometimes to stores that have been openly selling modified CBs, or illegal wireless phones, or sometimes...just to ham radio operators who have been breaking the rules. They are pretty damn close to the IRS, in terms of saying "Pay up, _or else."_


Are the fines reserved for folks who have ignored multiple warning or given to first time offenders of obscure rules.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

david-
As best I can tell, the fines are levied based on the circumstances of the offense, and the requirements of the situation, i.e. statutory minimums, etc.
There aren't a lot of "obscure" rules to violate. As a licensee, you are responsible to read the appropriate part of the CFR. (And IIRC hazily they _used to _require you to actually possess those rules.) Anything you can't understand, you don't do. Before microcontrollers, you used to need to know the limits of your operating frequencies. Now, radios will stop you from going out of bounds--if they are type certified. So, for instance, if you took it upon yourself to modify a radio and then accidentally used it out of band...they'd probably slap you, because it was intentional and unjustified. OTOH if they somehow found you using 1600 watts where you were allowed 1500...you'd probably just get a warning. Assuming someone they ever bothered with such a minor violation.
They have a lot of discretion, and they tend to use it pretty fairly. Although, one might actually argue that they have reduced or waived fines based on "I'm broke and can't pay it" a bit more often than they should.
Somewhere on the web, you can look up the notice of violations and the follow-ups, and get a direct idea of what they've been up to. And of course bear in mind, their past performance never is an assurance of how new appointees will deal with the same issues.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I have a list of frequencies permitted for a General license right next to the radio to avoid mistakenly transmitting on an "extra" channel or some other reserved frequency. You could potentially really raise H with a frequency meant for another use if not careful. It would be pretty easy to make that kind of mistake. The Airmail software makes it easy to control frequencies because it has drop down menus which designate the frequencies you'll be using. The Airmail program (not the only one available) and Pactor modem, it's pretty clear which frequencies you are using. Once you have the portal sites in the program, it would be next to impossible to screw up. It's also possible through the program to control the power output. I always try to use enough power to get through but not more than necessary. It saves on wattage use. I seem to hear a lot of bleeding over in crowded anchorages. Maybe the experts here can chime in on that issue.


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

smurphny said:


> I always try to use enough power to get through but not more than necessary. It saves on wattage use. I seem to hear a lot of bleeding over in crowded anchorages. Maybe the experts here can chime in on that issue.


That's really what you're supposed to do. Only need the power to make reliable communications. Operating in a crowded area can get frustrating since a transmitter can really mess up your receiver and your ears.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

smurphny said:


> ....... I always try to use enough power to get through but not more than necessary. It saves on wattage use. I seem to hear a lot of bleeding over in crowded anchorages. Maybe the experts here can chime in on that issue.


That's good practice, agreed.

But, how exactly do you do that (adjust power output levels) with your Icom M700Pro?

Bill


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

The Airmail program has a drop down menu that has an output control via the terminal screen. The radio has to be on to access it. The option is in the "control";"set amplitude level" screen. I used the radio for quite a while before discovering this screen. It will find a level automatically but it seems to be quite high for some spots.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

smurphny said:


> The Airmail program has a drop down menu that has an output control via the terminal screen. The radio has to be on to access it. The option is in the "control";"set amplitude level" screen. I used the radio for quite a while before discovering this screen. It will find a level automatically but it seems to be quite high for some spots.


Congratulations for finding and using this option. I hoped that would be the case.

For those who don't know the M700Pro, it's a great marine radio...similar in many respects to the M710 but easier to use on the ham bands. Like the M710, it's built like a tank.

However, the M700Pro only has one power output level: 150 watts PEP.

As smurphny has discovered, you can vary the RF output level with Pactor modems and the Airmail/Sailmail software, allowing connects at lower output levels.

Bill


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

Great thread with lots of good info, albeit quite confusing to a newbie like me. I recently decided to buy a handheld 2-way transciever to augment my VHF radio. Not knowing anything about the genre, I purchased this Baofeng UV-5RA from Amazon: 




So far, I've been able to tune to the local NOAA frequency, but that's about it. I have no idea how to operate it beyond turning it on. So, I have decided to start studying for the technician License. I guess my question is this: Will this radio function adequately as a back up once I learn how to actually use it? I will never be more than 25 miles offshore on heavily traveled waters, mostly I'll be within 3 miles of the shore. Or, did I buy something that is useless on a boat?


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

ericb760 said:


> Great thread with lots of good info, albeit quite confusing to a newbie like me. I recently decided to buy a handheld 2-way transciever to augment my VHF radio. Not knowing anything about the genre, I purchased this Baofeng UV-5RA from Amazon: Amazon.com: Baofeng UV5RA Ham Two Way Radio 136-174/400-480 MHz Dual-Band Transceiver (Black): Car Electronics
> 
> So far, I've been able to tune to the local NOAA frequency, but that's about it. I have no idea how to operate it beyond turning it on. So, I have decided to start studying for the technician License. I guess my question is this: Will this radio function adequately as a back up once I learn how to actually use it? I will never be more than 25 miles offshore on heavily traveled waters, mostly I'll be within 3 miles of the shore. Or, did I buy something that is useless on a boat?


What you bought is a dual-band VHF/UHF radio which is capable of receiving and transmitting on several VHF and UHF bands, including the ham bands (144-148mHz and 440mHz) and the marine band (156-158mHz) as well as receiving NOAA weather on the ~162 mHz band.

It isn't type-certificated for transmitting on the marine bands, but if you have a ham license you can use it on the ham bands (VHF and UHF).

In an emergency, of course, you can use any frequency.

Probably good as a backup, and lots of fun for listening.

Bill
WA6CCA


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

That Baofeng might also be a problem on the marine channels, because sIIRC ome of them are actually "channel pairs" with a different frequency for transmit and receive. Marine radios have that offset built in, ham radios have it as a programming option--sometimes. I'd heard complaints that some of the Chinese radios make the offset programming difficult to impossible, compared to conventional radios.

They're cheap enough to make a good "spare", so don't lose too much sleep over it. If nothing else it will give you an extra radio to monitor one of the marine channels (9 or 16 or your local marina or launch) rather than needing to set up a multi-watch on the next radio you get.


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

hellosailor said:


> That Baofeng might also be a problem on the marine channels, because sIIRC ome of them are actually "channel pairs" with a different frequency for transmit and receive. Marine radios have that offset built in, ham radios have it as a programming option--sometimes. I'd heard complaints that some of the Chinese radios make the offset programming difficult to impossible, compared to conventional radios.
> 
> They're cheap enough to make a good "spare", so don't lose too much sleep over it. If nothing else it will give you an extra radio to monitor one of the marine channels (9 or 16 or your local marina or launch) rather than needing to set up a multi-watch on the next radio you get.


I have discovered several websites that guide you through the (often) difficult task of programming these Chinese radios. You're right though, for less than 40 bucks, I won't lose any sleep! It certainly seems to be a neat little toy to tinker with...


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

hellosailor said:


> That Baofeng might also be a problem on the marine channels, because sIIRC ome of them are actually "channel pairs" with a different frequency for transmit and receive. Marine radios have that offset built in, ham radios have it as a programming option--sometimes. I'd heard complaints that some of the Chinese radios make the offset programming difficult to impossible, compared to conventional radios.
> 
> They're cheap enough to make a good "spare", so don't lose too much sleep over it. If nothing else it will give you an extra radio to monitor one of the marine channels (9 or 16 or your local marina or launch) rather than needing to set up a multi-watch on the next radio you get.


After playing with the radio for a couple of days I've discovered that you can, indeed, program the offsets, and once you understand the menu, it's pretty straightforward, although I certainly understand how this could frustrate a sailor used to working with pre-programmed Marine Radios. I ordered a textbook on studying for the Ham Technician license and bought a better antenna. I plan to sit for the Technician exam so that I have a better understanding of how UHF/VHF radios work. The more I look in to this, the more I see how this can benefit laymen and sailors alike...


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