# Trailerable 16-20' for 2' of water



## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

After many years with my beloved Contessa 26 and a couple life changes (baby) I'm looking to move down in size, time and cost as well as change location.

The new boat would be on a mooring in 2' of water in a protected estuary and will mostly stay there. There is a 20' bridge separating the estuary from the harbor and the ocean (Buzzards Bay). 

This means the list of requirements is this
-Less than 2' draft
-Must have cabin (just because)
-Must have a centerboard that can kick up on a grounding
-<2000lb
-Seaworthy and stable is a plus (family)


Boats that I've identified so far include the following:
1) Montgomery 17
2) Compac Sun-Cat
3) Compac 19
4) Marshall Sanderling
5) Mariner 19.


The Montgomery has remained at the top of my list because it has a great reputation, fits the requirements well and I like the way it looks. The Compac 19 is roughly similar (but larger) in my mind but only barely meets the draft requirements.

The catboats are an obvious choice. I love the way they look and they're big for their length but I'd have to get over fears of the consequences of that huge cat main getting overpowered and flipping the whole wide tub over. The compac Sun-Cat has a great hinged mast which could be unstepped on the water to duck under the bridge mentioned above - a huge plus. Though both are expensive.

The Mariner 19 isn't a boat that excites me a ton except that it's a respected simple and widely available option in this category.

If it was possible the Cape Dory Typhoon would be at the top of my list but it won't work in 2' of water. If there are similar classic full-keels with centerboards that fit the bill I'm not aware of them. 

Any other thoughts?


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## Turnin Turtle (Jun 25, 2016)

Compac 19... no if you are serious about that 2' draft requirement.

It says 2' in sailboatdata
Its not going to float that high in real life.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Victoria 18 (this is a great little boat).
Montego 19 (big 19 footer) will need to crank keel up each time to moor.
West Wight Potter 19 (again will need to lift keel each time you moor)
If that 2 feet draft is fudgeable, Capri 18 (2' 4" draft) is really a 20 footer, love these boats.
Starwind 19 I (shoal and centerboard boat).

Now for some crazy options..
S2 6.7
S2 6.9 (big boat for your requirements, not sure how well it does board up, but I think there is ballast in the bilge along with the keel).
Marshall Sanderling (cat boat, that is really quite quick off wind, keel/centerboard)
Corsair 750 (centerboard tri)
Corsair 24


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

2' at MLW? You might have a bit more flexibility, if you're willing to time the tides a little.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I would think the 20' bridge restriction is a bigger issue than the draft. Just about any centerboard boat will solve the 2' draft problem, but most 16 and larger sloops are likely to have a mast height over 20'. A gaff rigged cat seem like the ideal choice.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

Cool, some neat suggestions. I'll comment more later.



Minnewaska said:


> 2' at MLW? You might have a bit more flexibility, if you're willing to time the tides a little.


2' is about what my mooring is going to be though obviously I need to double check that exactly. It's in mud so its not a disaster if the boat hits bottom but I don't want it it sitting on its side at low tide and generally a shallower draft opens up more sailing possibilities in these waters.



JimsCAL said:


> I would think the 20' bridge restriction is a bigger issue than the draft. Just about any centerboard boat will solve the 2' draft problem, but must 16 and larger sloops are likely to have a mast height over 20'. A gaff rigged cat seem like the ideal choice.


I didn't mean to confuse - I'll be sailing on the near side of the bridge almost all the time (East Branch Westport River) but if the boat can duck under the bridge that's great (how about those youtube videos where you hang a weight from the mast and deliberately heel 45+ degrees?). Any boat can trailer around it so a boat that's seaworthy enough to justify that is a plus.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

Your only choice here is a West Wight Potter 19, if you can find one. Company was sold to the Chinese but there are a bunch out there, unfortunately not many in eastern MaSS. 

6 inch draft with the board up, cabin with four berths, porta-pottie, stove, capable of sailing in 25 knot winds with the sails reefed.

Can be trailered easily if you can tow 2000 lb. 

The bridge is a problem, but not insurmountable. You can rig a winch powered , or crank powered mast raiser or lower-er to drop the mast back enough to get under the bridge. But I would not try to do that single handed because you have to release the pin on the fore sail. 

If you need under 20foot mast in a good sailing vessel you probably need a catboat with a gaff rig.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

I forgot my brothers boat!!! He's gonna kill me for not recommending it.

Newport 17 (can be found all over the place)... swing keel... draws like 12 inches up, like 4.5 feet down. Its a lightly laid up boat, but we've sailed it in 25 knot winds (obviously NOT the picture below).

We sailed his newport 17 on the Albemarle sound, I know pictures or it didn't happen... well here you go.
For the record, we used a public ramp, then under a bridge, with clearance, 5', no seriously 5' clearance (we were laying down in the cockpit, as the cabin cleared the bridge by about 1 foot. We motored probably 1/4 mile to the bridge with the mast down, then raised the mast, in the channel, then on with the sails, and sailing/sailing at that point. This picture was taken after we stopped at the house we were staying at, for "provisions" for the day (yep beer and sammiches). So the mast down is not a difficult problem to deal with honestly, you just need calm waters to do it ON the water.

For the record, water depth where we launched was so shallow his outboard (thankfully air cooled) was chopping up the surface and spraying water.

The dock in this picture had a water level of about 18 inches. We used a 5foot bamboo stick to measure depth to determine when we could lower the keel


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

Ok some good suggestions. Let me run through them.

Although the potter meets the requirements I've mostly ruled it out on aesthetic grounds.

The Starwind 19 is immediately interesting and also points towards the Precision 18 or even 21 (same designer). I actually like all these boats quite a lot but for some reason I'd discounted the precisions as probably too sporty for the family type sailing I envision. But I'm not sure if that's fair, their balast/displacement ratio at 30 for the 18 is similar to many of these others (except the Montgomery 17 which is 39) and they come with lifelines which many of these other options do not. If they have too much sail well that's easy to deal with (reef).

The Victoria 18 seems like a neat option that hits a lot of buttons for me (looks, balast/disp) though the 5'5" beam is skinny - bet she heels quickly. But she's definitely pretty.

The Montego 19 stikes me as roughly similar to a bunch of other options like O'Day 20, Cal 22 which maybe seem practical but don't excite me a ton.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

asdf38 said:


> ......I'll be sailing on the near side of the bridge almost all the time (East Branch Westport River) ........


I took a look at a chart. Do you mean East of the Westport Point Drawbridge? Not much water back there to ever put a centerboard down at all, other than a couple of channels. Murphy's Law would suggest the wind would never favor the channel. 

The bridge type says, bascule, so doesn't it open to allow a mast through?


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I took a look at a chart. Do you mean East of the Westport Point Drawbridge? Not much water back there to ever put a centerboard down at all, other than a couple of channels. Murphy's Law would suggest the wind would never favor the channel.
> 
> The bridge type says, bascule, so doesn't it open to allow a mast through?


Umm yeah..not a ton of water...2' in lots of places though in higher tides that's 3-5'. I think a keel stub with centerboard is definitely the best compromise since the boat should still sail with the centerboard up when needed. But you can see why a centerboard that kicks up on grounding is a must..

I've never seen that drawbridge open and don't see any big sailboats on the other side of it but I should double check how that works.

But yeah, as is often the case there are a bunch of completely contradictory compromises here. I pretty much want the biggest most stable boat possible but it needs to be small and work in 2' of water...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

With so many great sailing locations nearby, why are you handicapping yourself?


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

Well now I have a house and a mooring there and a baby so it makes lots of sense to step down in boat time/size/money. Besides the shallow water its a good protected body of water for family sailing. I strongly considered moving my current boat to the harbor proper but I can't see myself sailing in Buzzards Bay enough at this point in my life to justify the time and cost of maintaining a 'big boat' with storage and mooring fees when I can operate a trailerable boat for almost nothing probably and use it more.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

asdf38 said:


> The catboats are an obvious choice. I love the way they look and they're big for their length but I'd have to get over fears of the consequences of that huge cat main getting overpowered and flipping the whole wide tub


A catboat, like the Marshall Sanderling, has tremendous form stability. That, along with the catboat's weather helm, make it extremely difficult to capsize. As a catboat becomes overpowered, it will head up into the wind. I had an 18' Herreshoff catboat--similar to the Sanderling--for 16 years and never came close to capsizing, even when caught in winds to 30 kts once with no reef. One must remember to reef a catboat when you first think of it!

However, the OP's 20' air draft requirement would be a problem with an 18' catboat unless it had a tabernacle That would allow the mast to be raised and lowered in the water. Otherwise, the air draft with the gaff lowered is more like 23-24'. Some of the Marshalls have tabernacles, as well as some of the Menger 19's.


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## scott_lampe (Jan 24, 2016)

One for right out in left field: Seawind 24 catamaran. Will have no problem with 2 foot draft and the mast can be lowered whilst motoring to get under a bridge.

Sent from my SM-N920F using Tapatalk


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

asdf38 said:


> The Starwind 19 is immediately interesting and also points towards the Precision 18 or even 21 (same designer). I actually like all these boats quite a lot but for some reason I'd discounted the precisions as probably too sporty for the family type sailing I envision. But I'm not sure if that's fair, their balast/displacement ratio at 30 for the 18 is similar to many of these others (except the Montgomery 17 which is 39) and they come with lifelines which many of these other options do not. If they have too much sail well that's easy to deal with (reef).
> 
> The Victoria 18 seems like a neat option that hits a lot of buttons for me (looks, balast/disp) though the 5'5" beam is skinny - bet she heels quickly. But she's definitely pretty.


Agreed Montego 19, not an exciting boat...

The Vic 18 will heel easy, but is not tender for its size, its just a full keel boat, and prefers to sail on its ear more.

I would not classify any Precision boats as "sporty." They are well sorted boats that sail well. They are a bit lighter than some of the "classic cruisers," such as the Compacs and such (which reminds me a Compac 19 might also fit the bill - again small cockpit though).


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

fallard said:


> A catboat, like the Marshall Sanderling, has tremendous form stability. That, along with the catboat's weather helm, make it extremely difficult to capsize. As a catboat becomes overpowered, it will head up into the wind. I had an 18' Herreshoff catboat--similar to the Sanderling--for 16 years and never came close to capsizing, even when caught in winds to 30 kts once with no reef. One must remember to reef a catboat when you first think of it!
> 
> However, the OP's 20' air draft requirement would be a problem with an 18' catboat unless it had a tabernacle That would allow the mast to be raised and lowered in the water. Otherwise, the air draft with the gaff lowered is more like 23-24'. Some of the Marshalls have tabernacles, as well as some of the Menger 19's.


This is useful feedback.

I've been busy in the last couple weeks and have managed to sell the Contessa and see most of the boats on my list including Precision 21, Mariner, Montgomery 17 and the Sanderling. I even found boats to look at on a trip to Denver CO - sage marine who makes a new variant of the Montgomery 15/17 is in Golden CO and I rented a Catalina 22 on a reservoir there.

Anyway as my mind spins around between the various options it keeps stopping at the catboats right now and the sanderling specifically. All else being equal I'd probably prefer to admire cat gaff rigs from a distance but the other benefits that come along with the catboats are numerous. The shallow draft, huge cockpit, decent cabin, form stability, tabernacle mast (on most of them it seems), great looks and history, and factory support in the neighboring town seem hard to beat.

I'll be taking another look at a couple sanderlings this weekend. Of course they're among the most expensive boats in this size..

I'm open to other cats in this range (Hershoff, Menger, Cape Cod Shipbuilding) which have the same advantages too though from what I can gather the sanderling is the best sailer among them and the Menger 19 is 600lbs heavier. Though I haven't found a PHRF for any of these cats to really confirm that or compare.

A nice Cape Cod Shipbuilding cat is listed for sale which actually has a shallow draft full keel instead of centerboard (don't know if that's good or bad - it does open up cabin/cockpit space) but its missing the tabernacle which most Sanderlings and Menger's seems to have.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I didn't see this post earlier, because my wife, baby, dog and I were out cruising for weeks in thin water with lots of low bridges. How about a gaff cat rigged Bay Hen 21?

The boat floats in 9" of water, has a cabin, 24' of bridge clearance, a folding mast tabernacle and sails pretty darn quick off the wind.

I bought the boat in April and I'm already pushing 300 miles on her as a week end warrior.


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## StarwindMango (Oct 14, 2016)

Arcb's Bay Hen 21 sounds just about perfect. Easy to drop the mast, shallow draft and very stable.

I currently own a Starwind 19 and although with the CB up draft is supposedly under 2 feet, I highly doubt that with the boat loaded with gear. It's a pretty light boat so the extra weight raises the waterline quickly. That said- it's a nice sailing boat and comfortable for 3 or 4 people. I wouldn't want it to sit on or in mud very often for fear of it being jammed up the CB trunk. It's a pretty tight fit between the board and trunk. 

My father and I owned a Victoria 18 when I was in high school so I'm also very familiar with those as well. Fun for 2 or 3 people but that's about it because of the narrow cockpit. They do heel over easily but track well and are fun to sail. The draft is every bit of 2 feet and like the Starwind, that will easily increase with a loaded boat. They're very well made and one of the prettiest small boats ever produced.

Of all the suggestions, the Bay Hen or a cat boat are probably the best option. Having the ability to easily drop the mast is a huge plus.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

asdf38 said:


> The catboats are an obvious choice. I love the way they look and they're big for their length but I'd have to get over fears of the consequences of that huge cat main getting overpowered and flipping the whole wide tub over. The compac Sun-Cat has a great hinged mast which could be unstepped on the water to duck under the bridge mentioned above - a huge plus.


The trick is to sail reefed. I sail reefed probably close to half the time when the family is on board. Before I even head out in the morning, I check Windfinder. If I think there is a chance I'll need a reef, I'll put the reef in before I ever leave the dock. I find reefing single handed under way with a nervous mom and baby underfoot to be a bit much, so that's why I reef way early.

I totally agree with your desire for a cabin. I find I'm usually alone in the cockpit, while the others chill in the cabin. Small children need somewhere to get out of the weather in my opinion. Snow, rain, wind, sun, spray, bugs- little people just aren't as resistant to these challenges as big people.

A boat with good form stability and high initial stability, like a small Cat boat, can in many ways be more comfortable than some small keel boats.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

Arcb said:


> The trick is to sail reefed. I sail reefed probably close to half the time when the family is on board. Before I even head out in the morning, I check Windfinder. If I think there is a chance I'll need a reef, I'll put the reef in before I ever leave the dock. I find reefing single handed under way with a nervous mom and baby underfoot to be a bit much, so that's why I reef way early.
> 
> I totally agree with your desire for a cabin. I find I'm usually alone in the cockpit, while the others chill in the cabin. Small children need somewhere to get out of the weather in my opinion. Snow, rain, wind, sun, spray, bugs- little people just aren't as resistant to these challenges as big people.
> 
> A boat with good form stability and high initial stability, like a small Cat boat, can in many ways be more comfortable than some small keel boats.


Yes I agree about the form stability. When I just rented the catalina 22 I was actually surprised by its stability which must have been form stability - something my Contessa had almost none of.

The catboat takes that to the next level which means it should be very comfortable for the short family day/evening sails which will be typical for me and for my passengers who invariably are complete non-sailors (honestly I've seen tons of pictures but when I saw the sanderlings in person the beam was almost laughable to me - man they're wide - 1' more than the 26' Contessa).

On the other hand my wife was sold on the idea that the Contessa effectively couldn't capsize and that's not technically a true statement for a catboat. We'd both have to adapt to the psychological shift.

Those are good points with kids. I also just think kids find the cabin fun and when they're small even a small cabin is huge. And also, forget my wife but when the kids are young I can make them 'cruise' with me and the 18' catboat would be fine for that.

And finally part of owning a sailboat is the vague notion when, say, sitting at work that you could just 'sail away' and any small cabin boat can give you that.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I don't think you can draw too many reasonable comparisons between these light unballasted boats and a bomb proof go any where any time boat like a Contessa 26, but you're not likely using them the same way either.

For sure a light cat boat won't weather an offshore storm like a Contessa 26, but I'm thinking you plan on using this boat mostly in Bays, lakes, rivers or within sight of land?

There are some safety features inherent in these small boats that larger boats don't always have, provided you're operating within reasonable parameters. Here are a few:

-Positive bouyancy. No explanation needed. There is a lot to be said for a boat that keeps floating after it's capsized or swamped. Most boats this size have positive bouyancy, I'd pass on any that don't.

-Reserve bouyancy/weight. Unballasted boats tend to float more on the water than in the water, this decreases the likelihood of shipping green water, because they tend to want to ride up and over waves rather than through. This helps with not getting stuck in groundings as well. It also means when the wind gusts, they are less inclined to stay still and heel over and more inclined to move through the water instead. Speed is good. 

-Draft, both under and above. When the weather comes up and you need to hide, you don't need to find a Marina or an anchorage. These boats can tuck in any where to ride out a blow. Behind a tiny spit of land, in the bullrushes, under a bridge, behind a sand bar. Their speed and agility makes reaching these areas easier too. A few weeks ago I snuck through some bull rushes and beached in a cow pasture/watering hole to let a storm pass, then paddled back out after.

-More stable than you think. Most of these boats are quite a bit more stable than people think. To capsize one, in most cases it's going to be because you're pushing the boat hard in strong winds and a line snags or snarls, or because you have the boat out in breaking seas. A well designed small boat can take quite a bit of punishment.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

I'll recommend what I always do for these threads...

Either a Stiletto 23 or a Seawind 24. Both are small light trailerable catamarans. Need next to no water to float, have massive form stability, and are reasonably quick. 

A shallow draft small monohull is just the wrong tool for the job.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

Still thinking a lot about what to do and my wife thinks I'm crazy for jumping between different ideas.

Part of me wants to scour the country and pick up a Montgomery 17, still the boat I like the best in most ways and typically available at 5-10k

Another part of me wants to pick up something cheaper and easy - the Compac 16 is high on that list. I love the looks and a few are nearby in great looking condition for $3-4k. Simple boat, low risk at that price even if I move on in a couple years.
https://maine.craigslist.org/boa/d/com-pac-16-sailboat-for-sale/6374754275.html

Catboats are still great in many ways but I haven't fallen in love with the cat rig and their prices continue to be a deterrent. Though interesting catboats still come up. A hershoff america with a carbon marconi rig:
https://maine.craigslist.org/boa/d/holiday-special-herreshoff-18/6398607737.html


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## StarwindMango (Oct 14, 2016)

asdf38 said:


> Still thinking a lot about what to do and my wife thinks I'm crazy for jumping between different ideas.
> 
> Part of me wants to scour the country and pick up a Montgomery 17, still the boat I like the best in most ways and typically available at 5-10k
> 
> ...


The Montgomery is a nice boat, and will sail circles around the Compac, and probably the catboat is well. That said, the catboat with the Marconi rig makes me drool. What a looker. That mast is VERY tall though, would be a bear to step.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

Yeah the America is a looker while having very little teak trim - very appealing to me.

The owner says that yes the mast is long but it's carbon, so its also very light. But yeah that's not a one person job I don't think.


One piece of information to add is that I got a look at a Compac Suncat and the owner demo'd the mast raising. Not only was it one person but it was basically light enough to lift with one hand. It would be very plausible to drop that mast on the water to sail under a bridge which is a nice-to-have for me. Not so much with that America....


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## StarwindMango (Oct 14, 2016)

asdf38 said:


> Yeah the America is a looker while having very little teak trim - very appealing to me.
> 
> The owner says that yes the mast is long but it's carbon, so its also very light. But yeah that's not a one person job I don't think.
> 
> One piece of information to add is that I got a look at a Compac Suncat and the owner demo'd the mast raising. Not only was it one person but it was basically light enough to lift with one hand. It would be very plausible to drop that mast on the water to sail under a bridge which is a nice-to-have for me. Not so much with that America....


To me, the Suncat is the ideal trailersailor. Shallow draft, easy to launch, stable, roomy and one person can handle the mast. No wonder they hold their value so well!

You can tow a Suncat with a small SUV or truck, I think you'd need a full size at minimum to tow the America catboat.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

StarwindMango said:


> To me, the Suncat is the ideal trailersailor. Shallow draft, easy to launch, stable, roomy and one person can handle the mast. No wonder they hold their value so well!
> 
> You can tow a Suncat with a small SUV or truck, I think you'd need a full size at minimum to tow the America catboat.


I had a 1972 Herreshoff America on a trailer for 16 yrs. The original owner towed it with a BMW 2002, but I doubt that was a good idea. Boat, trailer, and normal equipment would easily put the towing weight at or above 3500#,which was a noticeable load for my 1-ton, 4WD pickup at the time.

I sailed mine off a dock, where I could step the original aluminum mast with 2 people, but that was dicey without a gin pole. And I was a lot younger then! The carbon fiber stick obviously allows the higher Marconi rig, presumably keeping the same sail area as the original gaff rig, and also moves the center of effort inboard, which will reduce weather helm. I don't doubt that the carbon fiber/tabernacle arrangement is a lot easier to handle than the original aluminum mast.

Given the extensive rework of the H-18 on Craig's list, it is somewhat surprising that the cutout at the aft end of the keel wasn't filled in, now that the OB doesn't need the space. That would make a significant difference in further reducing the substantial weather helm of the H-18.

Still, it is a shame that all that gorgeous teak was removed from the coaming, coach roof (eyebrow), and cockpit seats. The external OB mount is another compromise that traded aesthetics for a functional improvement. No doubt the H-18 is a better sailer for all these changes, especially the carbon fiber rig.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

A few that haven't been mentioned yet:
a) Can't be Canadian without owning a Siren 17 at some point
b) Can't beat the accommodations of its big sister, the Sirius 21/22 (draws 1' board up, will sail with board part-way down). And it's just a Canadian knock-off of the
c) Venture/McG 21/22 - find the pop-top version

All of the above have air draft >20', but will be very easy to drop/step mast on the tabernacle.


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## seabeau (Oct 5, 2014)

How bout a cat ketch of some type? Two smaller masts to deal with.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

seabeau said:


> How bout a cat ketch of some type? Two smaller masts to deal with.


Sea Pearl 21


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## seabeau (Oct 5, 2014)

Arcb said:


> Sea Pearl 21


 Or a Core Sound? Is there a cat ketch Core Sound? 17ft maybe?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

seabeau said:


> Or a Core Sound? Is there a cat ketch Core Sound? 17ft maybe?


I think so. I think there are a 2 or 3 Core Sound Cat Ketches.

Interesting for me, I am a Canadian, and have never really been to the US South East, but my wife and I really want to check it out. Especially NC, SC and Georgia. I have been aware of the Core Sound boats for a few years, because of their reputation as fierce competitors in adventure racing.

Any way, we have been looking at the area between NC and Georgia in great detail recently and we have found Core Sound in our research. Its a place in the Outer Banks in North Carolina. It looks like a really cool place for sailing. Not really on topic, but a little light went off in my head when I was researching routes and saw the name.


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## seabeau (Oct 5, 2014)

The amazing diversity of life in the Southeast saltwater marshes is legendary, with both flora and fauna in great abundance, most of the region is unspoiled and still sparsely populated by humanity Perhaps I can suggest two great reads, the first concerning small boat cruising and the second a cruising guide in great detail of the Georgia Coast. The first, Beach Cruising and Coastal Camping by Ida Little and Michael Walsh, small boat cruising is their forte and the second, The Georgia Coast, Waterways and Islands by Nancy and Tom Zydler, a great book, full of GA. coastal river maps, photographs and interesting places off the beaten path to visit.. I got both of my copies off Amazon...


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Here is the link for the Core Sound boats for the OP. Looks like their are a bunch of Cat Ketches. 15, 17, 20 and the EC 22. The only thing is, these are home made plywood boats, which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing. It might be possible to pick one up used, which will save you lots of hours of assembly.

CS-20 | B&B Yacht Designs

Here's the link for the Sea Pearl boats. These boats have been around a long time and have a good reputation amongst unballasted boats. Some times they can be had very cheaply. I saw one for sale earlier this year, complete for $500, it sold before I could get to it though. These folks are still in business and sell camper modules, so there is more shelter on board for the little one.

Sea Pearl 21 - Marine Concepts, Inc.

Another unballasted boat, although not a cat ketch, but could work well for the OP is the Dovekie 21. This boat like the Sea Pearl can be easily rowed, which saves $$$ and hassle with the engine. They seem to command a fairly high price used for such simple boats ($3000-4000 is what I have seen), but that's because their owners treasure them.

DOVEKIE sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


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## seabeau (Oct 5, 2014)

Marine Innovation of Florida produced some interesting boats, the Beachcomber 25 and the Sandpiper 32 both shoal draft cat ketches.


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## WharfRat (Aug 4, 2015)

Arcb said:


> I think so. I think there are a 2 or 3 Core Sound Cat Ketches.
> 
> Interesting for me, I am a Canadian, and have never really been to the US South East, but my wife and I really want to check it out. Especially NC, SC and Georgia. I have been aware of the Core Sound boats for a few years, because of their reputation as fierce competitors in adventure racing.
> 
> Any way, we have been looking at the area between NC and Georgia in great detail recently and we have found Core Sound in our research. Its a place in the Outer Banks in North Carolina. It looks like a really cool place for sailing. Not really on topic, but a little light went off in my head when I was researching routes and saw the name.


The Outer Banks are definitely worth the trip, but should you have a chance to visit there, also explore the inland side of Pamlico Sound. The little town of Oriental, N.C., prides itself as the sailing capital of the state. New Bern is a nice little harbor town as well.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

fallard said:


> I had a 1972 Herreshoff America on a trailer for 16 yrs. The original owner towed it with a BMW 2002, but I doubt that was a good idea. Boat, trailer, and normal equipment would easily put the towing weight at or above 3500#,which was a noticeable load for my 1-ton, 4WD pickup at the time.
> 
> I sailed mine off a dock, where I could step the original aluminum mast with 2 people, but that was dicey without a gin pole. And I was a lot younger then! The carbon fiber stick obviously allows the higher Marconi rig, presumably keeping the same sail area as the original gaff rig, and also moves the center of effort inboard, which will reduce weather helm. I don't doubt that the carbon fiber/tabernacle arrangement is a lot easier to handle than the original aluminum mast.
> 
> ...


Nice feedback. So I actually took a trip and looked at both the boats I linked above.

The Amierca is a 96' not 77' as in the listing and was built by a guy in florida who breifly had the molds at that time. That explains some differences (lack of teak). The Marconi rig was a one-off though and is aluminum, not carbon. That was one thing that stood out - it's a big heavy unstayed mast and though its on a hinge its still somewhat daunting to consider raising/lowering it (and what could go wrong) on my own.

Also this America seems to have the rudder protrude about 3" lower meaning it looks like the low point on a grounding. Given that its on a strut too (unlike sanderlings) that seems like a downside in my shallow waters. I'd consider just cutting off the lower part actually if I got it. Did you consider your America beachable?

But overall it was in great shape and is a lot of boat for the money, especially compared to the sanderlings I've seen which are in worse shape at double the price.

The Compac was also in great shape (how about a 77' with no bottom paint). As I expected, the compac is basically half the size of the America. It's almost comical to see in person because in pictures it has a big boat look. That said, the cockpit and cabin are both well proportioned. I could sit in the compac cabin almost as well as the America and the cockpit is about 7' which is as long as most boats.

The mast isn't hinged of course but its only about 18' long and clearly much easier to manage than the America would be.

After googling both these boats a couple others not mentioned popped up in my search that I also like:
Seaward Fox/Slipper 17

And how about this. Too bad its british and epxensive:









BayRaider expedition | Swallow Yachts


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

Bay hen, mentioned earlier is similar to the british boat linked above, though a little less, say, traditional in looks.

https://keys.craigslist.org/boa/d/1987-bay-hen-sailboat/6416807673.html

Arcb, is the Bay Hen self-bailing?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

asdf38 said:


> Arcb, is the Bay Hen self-bailing?


No it isn't. Realistically speaking, if you are out in conditions where its rough enough to be shipping seas in a Bay Hen, cockpit drainage is going to be just one of a series of problems. From a practical perspective, I find the issue with not having a self draining cockpit on these boats is over night rain. Owners I know who keep their boats in the water, put canvas covers or tarps to keep the cockpit from filling up.

The ad you linked, the price is pretty good. However, when they say modified, they aren't joking. The original Florida Bay Boat works boats were extremely simple rigs. A single Gaff rigged main, that's it. The boat in the ad has had a mizzen mast added, a boomkin, bow bowsprit, a jib, a spinnaker. This is a boat that stock has a Sail area displacement ratio of over 30, so, that is a lot of sail area they have put on that boat.

If you like the Bay Raider, there is a similar Canadian built boat, from PEI. They are also a bit pricey, but I am sure would be less than a Bay Raider. The Norse Boat comes in sizes ranging from 12.5 to 21.5. The 21.5 has a hard cabin model similar to the Bay Hen, while the 17.5 has a camper module option. They are nice boats, fully rowable (or outboard), free standing carbon fibre sloop rigs.

NorseBoat 21.5

Edit: As for the appearance of the Bay Hen, the hard chines and flat bottom are a matter of practicality, its what makes them capable of sailing in such shallow water. The concept is not a new thing, flat bottom work and fishing boats have been common for quite a while in places where folks have had to work in areas with very shallow water. I can reach the boat in as little as 9 or 10 inches of water.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

asdf38;2051308738
The Amierca is a 96' not 77' as in the listing and was built by a guy in florida who breifly had the molds at that time. That explains some differences (lack of teak). The Marconi rig was a one-off though and is aluminum said:


> The tabernacle on the America makes a big difference. My old America with the single piece, keel-stepped mast was a challenge to step/unstep without assistance. Definitely a 2-man job requiring calm conditions and caution. Raising the mast to the vertical was readily doable with 2 men, but lowering it through the deck was a one-man proposition, with a second person to guide it into the step. Unstepping it meant one person lifting it up and through the deck before lowering it by letting it fall into the hands of the second man. I did this for 15-16 years without incident--close calls don't count! By comparison, I would think the tabernacle arrangement would reduce the risk of "losing it" and the total weigh of the mast section being raised would likely be similar to my old single piece mast. Given the choice, I would go for the tabernacle arrangement.
> 
> I never beached my America. It had a 1' 10" draft which would allow you to approach the beach in knee-deep water, where you could deploy a bow anchor and back into the beach, without grounding and use a boarding step arrangement to wade to shore without getting your shorts wet. There you could deploy a stern anchor, med moor style. The OP has probably checked the Catboat Association website, where you can find cats for sale. If you go to Cats4Sale 170 - Catboat Association, Inc. and check the 170-30 listing you will see an America beached. I just don't like the idea of damaging the soft bottom paint.
> 
> My America also had an extended skeg that anchored the bottom of the rudder. The skeg had been replaced by the original owner, who had broken it at a launch ramp when the boat tilted. Lesson learned: even if you have a tilting trailer, best to float the boat off. In any case, I would not cut away the rudder for structural reasons and also to maintain rudder performance. If anything, I would fill in the hole in front of the rudder, for reasons mentioned in an earlier post.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Asdf38, I put together a short compilation video of my BH in really skinny water. These boats are Cat rigged, like a Cat boat, but are pretty different boats. Cat boats, like the America, are fairly powerful boats, as far as I know. They can handle big loads and big winds and can carry lots of sail with their big beams.

The Hen boats are a different animal. Narrow beams, light weight, fine entry, fine exit. The Hen boats are very much fair weather boats, but are absolutely maximised for shallow draft sailing and low bridge clearances. The hull itself, with its hard chines, fine entry, and fine exit, provides enough lift that these boats can sail upwind without a foil (much like an asymmetrical beach cat). But, in my opnion, lack the power and stability of a more conventional Cat boat. 

Niche boats for those of us who sail in skinny water with low bridges. Maybe tippy and poor upwind performers for folks who sail in deep water. 

Any way, here are the skinny water shots I compiled for the thread, to give you an idea where the Bay Hen shines.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Apparently that link didn't work.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

Arcb said:


> Apparently that link didn't work.
> 
> Shallowwatermini - YouTube


Thats pretty cool and I love the blue. If I saw one of those boats up here I'd take a look and give it some thought. I also know Nimble because I've been staring at a few of their other boats too. The Nimble Nomad 24' outboard trawler is a neat boat - a pretty practical way for a family with short time to actually cruise. Bow and stern cockpits are pretty unique.

I may be moving towards a decision on one of the following boats sometime soon.

1) Hershoff America (linked above)
Not ruled out yet because it's a great value in my opinion but my thinking is that it's more boat than I should have at the moment until I get more familiar with my new, smaller, shallower sailing grounds. And, for example, it's not a boat I can rush down and pull out of the water by myself in the dark at 9pm after work when a storm is coming - the other boats are. Stuff like that makes life easier.

2) Compac 16 (Linked above)
Cheap=no worries. Perfectly respectable small boat.

3) Compac Legacy:
https://providence.craigslist.org/boa/d/sailboat-com-pac-2011/6368849691.html

Between the Legacy and Compac 16 I think I'd go with this legacy if I arrange to see it. Its so much newer with new sails. The only downside I see is that the cockpit is shorter. But it should be much faster than the Compac 16 with more sail area, less weight (but similar ballast) and the centerboard. I'm thinking with its sloop rig this is perhaps the best all-around sailor in the group (though perhaps not outright faster than the America?)

4) Compac Suncat (Florida)
2002 Com-pac Suncat 17 sailboat for sale in Florida

If its in the condition it appears it looks a lot cheaper than what I've seen in my area and on top of that I love the color and its well equipped. Part of me thinks, as someone else said, that the suncat is the ideal trailerable and perhaps I should do what it takes to grab this from Florida. What would I figure on delivery, $2k all said and done perhaps? Or is that optimistic to make it to Ma these days?


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## StarwindMango (Oct 14, 2016)

asdf38 said:


> Thats pretty cool and I love the blue. If I saw one of those boats up here I'd take a look and give it some thought. I also know Nimble because I've been staring at a few of their other boats too. The Nimble Nomad 24' outboard trawler is a neat boat - a pretty practical way for a family with short time to actually cruise. Bow and stern cockpits are pretty unique.
> 
> I may be moving towards a decision on one of the following boats sometime soon.
> 
> ...


The legacy is very nice, practically new in sailboat years. I have not been on a legacy, but have been on a SunCat and CP-16. I suspect the Suncat feels like a much larger boat than the Legacy. It will not sail as well, but I think you might "grow out" of the Legacy faster than the Suncat. My vote would be the Suncat. Especially with that newer Tohatsu motor. Those are good little engines.

Not sure where you are located, but either of those is an easy tow with a small to medium SUV. Unless you have no time, I wouldn't pay someone to ship it.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

Well I tried to buy the Compac Legacy which was in nice shape but the owner couldn't come up with the title.

Now I've been widening my horizon and considering boats farther away. I'm pretty zeroed in on the Compac Suncat, Precision 18 and Montgomery 17.

Right now I'm mulling over a trip to either Orlando for this Precision 18 which seems like a nice all-around boat for $5k (with bimini and canvas cover)
https://orlando.craigslist.org/boa/d/precision-18-sailboat/6510080039.html

Or South Dakota for a Compac Suncat which is quite new (and the blue really does it for me):
Com-Pac Suncat, 2012, Lemmon, South Dakota, sailboat for sale from Sailing Texas, yacht for sale

Between the two I'm leaning towards the Precision because of price. The trip to Florida would run about $1200 for a total of about $6500 versus at least $15-16k total for the Compac.

The question is whether its really worth a trip for either or whether I wait to see what pops up locally. Though both seem like decent values.

I discussed buying a boat at a distance in this thread. What seems best to me is to fly one way and rent a Uhaul truck one way back.
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...3146-buying-boat-far-away.html#post2051412402


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Spring (usually around May or June) trailerables come on the market (generally). That;s a wide range of driving for a very small boat... the C16 is a pretty plentiful boat too.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

The newer Com-Pac Cat Boats do have a certain appeal especially with their Mastender System for dealing with low overhead clearances.

Here is a video of the smaller Picnic Cat using the Mastender System to good advantage putting out from a lauch that requires you to pass under a very low bridge in shallow water.





I lean toward Com-Pac as they are only a few blocks from where I live and many of their boats were designed by a highly respected local Clarke Mills. I plan on stopping in to see if I can get the tour and meet the Hutchins.

Precision's I ruled out as they only have two low draft centerboard boats without a shoal keel and less than 12" draft with the board up however those have no cabin. They currently have no boats with a cabin and a centerboard that's not combined with a shoal draft keel so they all draw about 2 feet of water with the board up (1' 6" to 1' 11"). Their smallest boat the 15 has a mast height of 25' 4" above the water line while the masts on the 18's are 27' or more. The Precision 21 and 23 go to 30' and 35' above the water line. Those are built around Sarasota.

Some folks with the O'day over 19 feet long are putting the Com-Pac Mastender System on them and appear to be quite happy with the results.

The Newport/Neptune 16 are also on my list due to their 10" draft with the board up making them beach launchable however I am not sure how easy the masts are to raise and lower while out on the water.

Many of the old MacGregor may fit your need for shallow draft and a mast easily stepped while out on the water. MacGregor's Daughter and her husband are setting up on Tattoo Yachts the East Coast of Florida to build a 22' boat that has a beach draft with a lifting keel and can take a 40 hp outboard making it about 20 knots capable which like the MacGregor 19 and 26 have a sectional mast with a storage rack inside the cabin so it can be stowed below deck if desired. They are in the midst of re-re-locating as the bigger facility they rented if I understand correctly decided not renew their lease just as they were settling in and they are currently moving into another newer facility. I hope they can survive being out of production and moving so much and that they have not lost too many key people since they started the initial move back in something like 2015.

Beach launching can save you an hour at the boat ramp with folks waiting in line behind you getting fussy because you have a sailboat and are the one delaying them from getting out on the water and depleting the area of oxygen and sunshine. The always seem to miss the other 100 people that you had to wait for or the others behind them that they will be holding up while the stop to answer a text, etc.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

Yes that's a cool video and applicable to me where I have a couple nearby bridges.

Well I found a Compac prospect on my side of the country. I had some correspondence with this guy, got some additional pictures and talked the price down somewhat.
https://longisland.craigslist.org/boa/d/2009-compac-suncat-sailboat/6447205442.html

It's probably not going to get much better than this for a Compac so its decision time. Do I just spend the money to get what's probably the best boat prospect for getting my family out (arguably #1), can duck my nearby bridges, looks great and will generally be the easiest thing to sail and manage?

Or do I go with a cheaper boat that I'd prefer if the family doesn't come out (hard to control the wife and 2-year old). The precision would be fast and fun for a couple hours by myself on a windy day.

I also find cost has a double penalty. When you buy something expensive it expensive...then you also spend more time and money fussing over it.

Same problems I've been struggling with this whole process...


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

asdf38 said:


> Yeah the America is a looker while having very little teak trim - very appealing to me.
> 
> The owner says that yes the mast is long but it's carbon, so its also very light. But yeah that's not a one person job I don't think.
> 
> One piece of information to add is that I got a look at a Compac Suncat and the owner demo'd the mast raising. Not only was it one person but it was basically light enough to lift with one hand. It would be very plausible to drop that mast on the water to sail under a bridge which is a nice-to-have for me. Not so much with that America....


As I mentioned previously Com-Pac's Mastender System makes for easy stepping and owners of other makes of boats are retrofitting theirs with the Com-Pac Mastender System too.

Another thing to look at is that some of the centerboard Com-Pac's are coming with a Stainless Steel Centerboard.


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## archimedes (May 14, 2014)

SeaStar58 said:


> Some folks with the O'day over 19 feet long are putting the Com-Pac Mastender System on them and appear to be quite happy with the results.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Curious where you saw this. I have a O'day Mariner 19 and would love that hinged mast.


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## archimedes (May 14, 2014)

I can't imagine driving all the way to FL to buy an 18' boat. Then turning around and dragging it all the way back up I-95 (in the spring with all the other snow birds no less).

I do the drive from FL to New England every year and by the time I get up north I'm ready to shoot myself. That's a long, long drive - especially pulling a boat.


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

Bay Hen?


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

archimedes said:


> I can't imagine driving all the way to FL to buy an 18' boat. Then turning around and dragging it all the way back up I-95 (in the spring with all the other snow birds no less).
> 
> I do the drive from FL to New England every year and by the time I get up north I'm ready to shoot myself. That's a long, long drive - especially pulling a boat.


You can order one and have it delivered and there are a number of dealers who stock them all over the country and then some.

I am finding lately the 27 to 30 hour straight through drive a bit much too. The worst part if you do it too early in the spring is the Edgar Allen Poe feel to things with the left over road salt and barren landscape devoid of leaves, blossoms and color.

One of the nice things about Com-Pac is that you can see both of the brothers sailing their own companies boats locally as they are regular sailors and do more than knock off designs on paper but get out there personally and live with them. Richard Hutchins' actually lives aboard a Com-Pac 35 while Gerry is the one that you will see more often taking their small boats out on trials and just for fun. That is one reason you see them now putting a centerboard even in some of the shoal keel Cat boats and that they went to the extreme of designing a stainless steel centerboard in a stainless steel trunk for that purpose. You may be able to talk with them directly about putting it in one of their other boats where they do not offer it and they may surprise you with an "OK, we can do that!". The stainless steel trunk should resolve some of the more common trunk failure issues others have to deal with and it would be nice to see others buying the trunk from them to incorporate in other brand boats or as an owner retrofit for replacing failing trunks.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

archimedes said:


> SeaStar58 said:
> 
> 
> > Some folks with the O'day over 19 feet long are putting the Com-Pac Mastender System on them and appear to be quite happy with the results.
> ...


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

archimedes said:


> I can't imagine driving all the way to FL to buy an 18' boat. Then turning around and dragging it all the way back up I-95 (in the spring with all the other snow birds no less).
> 
> I do the drive from FL to New England every year and by the time I get up north I'm ready to shoot myself. That's a long, long drive - especially pulling a boat.


At this point in my life with work, wife and 2-year old 2 days on 95 would be a break. So I'm pretty neutral on that.

Any chance anyone wants to look at the Precision in Florida on my behalf? Or know anyone in the area? If I could arrange that I'd probably opt to ship it. I posted in that sticky thread as well.

I think I'm going to pass on the compac and I think I need to close the book on that. I'll enjoy a sloop and a boat for under ~8k the most right now I think (subject to change the next time I see a picture of a catboat).


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

How about a free RK21/Ensinada?

At least this one is honest about condition and shows a fairly current photo of the boat:









Kidding aside where is the Precision? I won't try to buy it out from under you as they aren't my cup of tea since I am looking for a boat that has some chance of being beach launch-able.

I see that there is an 1989 Precision 18 for sale at Lake Fairview Marina in Orlando which would be a little far out for me to check:
Used 1989 Precision 18, Orlando, Fl - 32804 - BoatTrader.com
Looks pretty nice inside and out with stern and bow pulpits along with a bimini with an asking of $5,150.









Plenty of nice boats under 8K used here in Florida.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

SeaStar58 said:


> How about a free RK21/Ensinada?
> 
> At least this one is honest about condition and shows a fairly current photo of the boat:
> 
> ...


Hey that's a pretty Precision 18! - I just put a deposit on it! Contingent on survey. So I'll just arrange a survey in lieu of asking anyone here for an inspection.

If this works out I'm pretty happy. This is the ideal way to buy a boat in my mind - older but well cared for is the best value its in the middle of my budget which leaves room for customization and upgrades. It's a boat that's high on my list with my two top accessories - bimini and canvas cover.

Though I still need the survey and need to arrange a pretty long trip for it....wish me luck with that.


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

That's a nice looking boat.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Wishing you luck and glad I could point you to a winner!

No takers though on the RC21? It should buff right out. :wink


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

Just following up here that I took delivery of the Precision 18. I haven't sailed it yet (somewhat important) but so far I love the boat and am happy with the decision. The Precision 18 looks great and I love its design and proportions. The cockpit is nearly as big as the Contessa 26 and the cabin has sitting room for me at 6' (just barely). That's all I could ask for at 18'.

The gelcoat is in great overall shape particularly the deck which has almost no crazing. The hull has some blisters (keel mostly) but it's bare gelcoat and I'm going to barrier coat it. Another interesting detail is that the boat effectively has no bilge so rain water collects under the V birth, in the cabin and in the 'bilge' under the cockpit. That's going to be a pain to keep dry.

It does have a number of rain leaks which I'm addressing with butyl tape but I don't see signs of deck structural issues and everything I've touched has been easy to work on (which I credit to good simple design). My biggest complaints are the PVC pipes used for cockpit and anchor locker drains. I see signs of leaking on all of them and it seems better hardware and hoses would have been more appropriate. The exposed core around the fore hatch has also taken some damage over the years and perhaps could have been better potted but I think it's going to be easy to repair.

The delivery through uShip from FL to MA cost just over $1k and had no problems. While I do love the canvas cover it came with I realize this isn't a 'winter' cover, it's a Florida rain cover with barely enough slope to shed the rain. So I'll still have to come up with a winter solution.

I'll post again when I sail the boat but so far I'm happy with the decision all around.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

Following up again...Finally epoxy barrier coated (I hated doing that and didn't do a great job - the consistency of the epoxy changes quickly and it's hard to get a good even coat), bottom painted and launched. The blisters were purely cosmetic and disappeared with a quick power sanding.

Absolutely love the boat so far both the Precision 18 design and my particular boat. It's hard to imagine a boat this small in terms of length and towing weight that feels this big. Precision build quality is great.

I've never stepped a mast but found it easier than expected. The trick I used was to use the mainsheet hardware between the jib halyard and the bow rail as a pulley system to raise the mast. Using that while walking the mast up let me do it alone easily.

The key thing it seems I got right with this boat choice that with proper bow/stern rails and lifelines this boat feels very safe for the family. I've had my wife and 2 year old out for a sail and while she's little animal at this age ("no it's my turn! [rips tiller away from dad at critical moment]") the cockpit, lifelines and bimini create a space that's as confined and safe as is reasonably possible.

The child also loves the cabin and spent half the sail under there playing with the loose screws I told her not to touch.

After a few quick sails I think boat handles great. Gusts knocked it to 30 degrees but it felt like it would take a lot to push it much more and it's responsive and quick to get back on its feet. I was able to tack up the channel against the current with the center board up in about 10 knots of wind without any problem. I'm enjoying the things that come with the smaller size of this boat (no winches needed, backstay mounted mainsheet is in a perfect position) and 'big boat' aspects my Contessa was missing (swim ladder, anchor locker).


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

Glad to hear this one has worked out. 

Sadly it appears that Precision is in the process of stopping production and moving to a smaller facility where the remaining owner will only be supplying parts.

You may find some bargain upgrades and such as they go through the transition so you may want to contact them so they will have you on their mailing list as an owner.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

That's great that you are letting her get the feel of the tiller. We are out cruising around on our Bay Hen right now. Yesterday we stopped into a town to get some provisions, Eastern Lake Ontario. We were headed back to an island we have been staying at for a few days with a distinctive 19th century defensive tower.

It was only about 2.5 miles. Wind was humping at about 20 knots, we were motoring (short distance, not worth setting sail). Waves were 2-3 feet and capping. My 4 yo son said, "da, me drive". I asked if he knew where we were going and he nodded, so I gave him the tiller. 

He steered us right there, no problem. It was rough enough on our little boat that we were taking spray over the stern but he managed just fine. He only got distracted and changed course once to check out some ducks in the water, but he definitely understood how to steer the boat to it's destination, correct for wind and waves.

If she is grabbing at the tiller at two and watching you, she should be right around where my young lad is in a couple of years.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

Yeah we have another kid on the way now too so it will be somewhat lean years for actual sailing but it's important for me to get the kids familiar. Like just keeping balance on the moving boat is a skill they'll learn early.


That would be quite sad if Precision is downsizing or shutting down. The sailboat industry seems incredibly difficult and it seems that it's going through another tough time after years of tough times. I wasn't sure if this was hitting the smaller builders or not. The fact is builders have to compete against their own boats from 30+ years ago and good used boats are 1/5th or less the cost of a new one.

Anyways I'll reach out to them and talk about some parts. I have a few things I should buy from them.


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