# Are any still in business?



## Shagbark (Dec 21, 2016)

I love the idea of cruising in a boat less than 30 feet in length. Various reasons why; easier to handle, the challenge of taking along the bare minimums, etc... Nor'se 27 and the Dana 24 are peeking my interest, they fit the bill, mostly. Except for the fact that they are aging. I can't seem to find any manufacturers that are still making blue water cruisers less than 30 feet in length. Any recommendations?


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

There are a number of <30' modern cruisers but not a lot of them are US built. Take a look at the French boats like Pogo and Django. Both are truely Ocean capable modern cruisers. 

The few US built <30' ocean capable boats are pretty much re-hashes of heavy and slow in various iterations.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Cape George still builds the Bristol Channel Cutter 28: Cape George Cutters § Bristol Channel Cutter 28' § Cecil Lange / William Atkin / traditional full keel sailboat

Seems most "small" cruisers built are around 30-32'.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Stumble said:


> Take a look at the French boats like Pogo and Django. Both are truely Ocean capable modern cruisers.


I must say I comletely disagree with your assessment of *both* of those boats. Though they may be built to withstand the rigors of ocean sailing neither has a cockpit I'd like to be steering *on* rather than *in* under extreme conditions.
From my heavy weather experience, steering one of those boats in severe weather would be extremely dangerous. There is absolutely zero protection from the seas. Those cockpits are just an invitation for the seas to sweep everything in them off the boat unhindered, including the person steering.
Furthermore, they hardly appear to be a comfortable place to lounge around, when not underway.
They look great as day sailors or even coastal weekend cruisers, or their obvious purpose as day racers, but no way I'd take one to sea.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

Shagbark said:


> Dana 24 are peeking my interest, they fit the bill, mostly. Except for the fact that they are aging. I can't seem to find any manufacturers that are still making blue water cruisers less than 30 feet in length. Any recommendations?


In theory you can still buy a brand new Dana 24. Seacraft Yachts in Seattle has the molds.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

Contact Bob at Nor'sea, I think he still is building them. There have been several used Nor'sea that have come up for sale on our forum on Yahoo.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

Stumble said:


> heavy and slow in various iterations.


Pretty much by definition a <30' cruising boat is going to be heavy and slow.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

capta said:


> I must say I comletely disagree with your assessment of *both* of those boats. Though they may be built to withstand the rigors of ocean sailing neither has a cockpit I'd like to be steering *on* rather than *in* under extreme conditions.
> From my heavy weather experience, steering one of those boats in severe weather would be extremely dangerous. There is absolutely zero protection from the seas. Those cockpits are just an invitation for the seas to sweep everything in them off the boat unhindered, including the person steering.
> Furthermore, they hardly appear to be a comfortable place to lounge around, when not underway.
> They look great as day sailors or even coastal weekend cruisers, or their obvious purpose as day racers, but no way I'd take one to sea.


The Pogo 30 is the little sister to the Pogo Class 40 and the big sister to the Pogo mini. Both of which are literly designed to sail around the world non-stop single handed. I would put the sea keeping ability of the 30 up against any full keel boat in the world. If you think they are day sailers then you really don't understand the boat. They are designed and built to round capes and handle anything the ocean can throw at it.

The 'lack of protection' you mentioned is really weird. First all of the controls are run to the hatch so the boat can be completely controlled from the hatch with no need to move aft. Second there is a hard dodger as an option that covers this area. Hard points are built in and ready for jack lines and tethers from the factory so if you do need to move aft it's already thought out.


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

Why do you need a new boat??? Lot of older boats out there that are good cruisers. Some that haven't been mentioned are the Vancouver 27, Albin Vega, Contessa 26, Westsail 28 and more out there. With a new Pogo 30 going for 6 figures, you could buy one of these older boats and higher someone to totally rebuild it, even if it's not necessary, and have enough money left over to cruise for a couple of years. 

The problem with boats like the Pogo 30 is they have little carrying capacity. With their extreme light displacement, adding normal cruising gear to them will nearly double their weight.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Stumble said:


> The Pogo 30 is the little sister to the Pogo Class 40 and the big sister to the Pogo mini. Both of which are literly designed to sail around the world non-stop single handed. I would put the sea keeping ability of the 30 up against any full keel boat in the world. If you think they are day sailers then you really don't understand the boat. They are designed and built to round capes and handle anything the ocean can throw at it.
> 
> The 'lack of protection' you mentioned is really weird. First all of the controls are run to the hatch so the boat can be completely controlled from the hatch with no need to move aft. Second there is a hard dodger as an option that covers this area. Hard points are built in and ready for jack lines and tethers from the factory so if you do need to move aft it's already thought out.


Nothing you've said changes my position the tiniest bit. I'd no more cruise one of those boats than I would a Volvo Ocean 65. 
My first big boat was a Rhodes design, Stone built ocean racer, bought to do a circumnavigation. As a racer I didn't have a clue what a cruising sailboat should be. I was absolutely a ludicrous cruising boat. Over powered, over sticked and with 23 bags of sails there wasn't all that much room below for the crew.
No thanks. A lightweight sled just doesn't appeal to me as a cruising boat. I'll take a boat with a stern that doesn't have a "welcome aboard" sign for old mother ocean when she's in a foul mood.


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

roverhi said:


> Why do you need a new boat??? Lot of older boats out there that are good cruisers.


+1

There's a lot of good older boats out there. The Nor'sea can still be built new. If you're interested in the NS27, feel free to join the Nor'sea Owners Group.

Cape Dory's a good boats, as well as Albin Vegas, PSC Dana, BCC28, and many more. Try looking at some of the older boats, you might find yourself a gem. I know I did.


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## timangiel (Sep 8, 2006)

Shagbark said:


> I love the idea of cruising in a boat less than 30 feet in length. Various reasons why; easier to handle, the challenge of taking along the bare minimums, etc... Nor'se 27 and the Dana 24 are peeking my interest, they fit the bill, mostly. Except for the fact that they are aging. I can't seem to find any manufacturers that are still making blue water cruisers less than 30 feet in length. Any recommendations?


Can I suggest a book? 
Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere
Book by John Vigor

Regards.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

capta said:


> Nothing you've said changes my position the tiniest bit. I'd no more cruise one of those boats than I would a Volvo Ocean 65.
> My first big boat was a Rhodes design, Stone built ocean racer, bought to do a circumnavigation. As a racer I didn't have a clue what a cruising sailboat should be. I was absolutely a ludicrous cruising boat. Over powered, over sticked and with 23 bags of sails there wasn't all that much room below for the crew.
> No thanks. A lightweight sled just doesn't appeal to me as a cruising boat. I'll take a boat with a stern that doesn't have a "welcome aboard" sign for old mother ocean when she's in a foul mood.


I would much prefer a boat that isnt dependent on the drainage speed of a 1" tube remaining unplugged to keep the boat from swamping. Plenty of boats every year seem to sink because the cockpit filled up, it has ceased to be an issue on modern designs.

The fact that boats have changed since you first started cruising seems beyond you. The Pogo is specced with a square headed main (no backstay or runners), a roller non-overlapping jib, and an asymetric spin on a furler. Why in gods name would you ever want to add a loft worth of sails to it? Even the Class 40 that the 30 derives from sail with just a handful of sails.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Stumble said:


> Plenty of boats every year seem to sink because the cockpit filled up,


I have never, ever heard of any boat that has sunk because the cockpit filled with water (with the hatches properly secured), in the 50+ years I have been on the water, pretty much full time.
From my experience, if the weather is that extreme, there is so much motion that most of the water is flung out of the boat long before the scuppers become a problem. What boat is going to remain on an even keel when it's so rough that the cockpit is filling with water?
Even in a full fledged tropical cyclone off Fiji on a 1909 Gaff ketch, with huge waves filling the cockpit on a regular basis, never once was *THAT* a major concern. The water was literally just flung right back out of the cockpit!
I'd like you to back up that statement, "Plenty of boats every year seem to sink because the cockpit filled up" with some facts, because as I said, I've never heard of that being the sole cause of the loss of one boat, let alone "plenty"!


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

capta said:


> I have never, ever heard of any boat that has sunk because the cockpit filled with water (with the hatches properly secured), in the 50+ years I have been on the water, pretty much full time.
> From my experience, if the weather is that extreme, there is so much motion that most of the water is flung out of the boat long before the scuppers become a problem. What boat is going to remain on an even keel when it's so rough that the cockpit is filling with water?
> Even in a full fledged tropical cyclone off Fiji on a 1909 Gaff ketch, with huge waves filling the cockpit on a regular basis, never once was *THAT* a major concern. The water was literally just flung right back out of the cockpit!
> I'd like you to back up that statement, "Plenty of boats every year seem to sink because the cockpit filled up" with some facts, because as I said, I've never heard of that being the sole cause of the loss of one boat, let alone "plenty"!


According to the annual statistic she published by Boat US and the Marine insurance industry the single largest cause of sinking is the failure of a below the waterline thru hull fitting. The second largest cause of sinking is a self draining cockpit that doesn't. The failure of self draining cockpits accounts for about one third of all recreational boats that sink.

None of the modern, open transom boats suffer from this design defect.

Speaking of the Pogo specifically, the single largest risk of sinking on an underway sailboat is from striking an underwater object. Accounting for about 40% of sailboats that sink underway. In the Pogo's case the pivoting keel that lifts in the event of a colission also eliminates or mitigates the single most common cause. Not to mention allowing a very deep draft while underway, and still allowing access to shallow water anchorages.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

I think the self draining sinkings are unattended boats that have leaves in the drain and the rain eventually makes it to the washboards. Seen a few derelict boats go down this way. 

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

Looking at the Pogo 30 I wouldn't consider it a great boat for offshore cruising. That swing keel will get knocked off pretty easily when striking an underwater object. No backstay or runners? Not what I would want sailing downwind in the trades. There are absolutely zero handholds in the big wide interior - that's a problem offshore. Only 25 gallons water tankage, and 10 gals of fuel tankage? Hope you aren't doing much more than a few days passage. The interior looks like it is full of berths, but very little storage, and with a d/l of 102 you better not load much of anything in it anyways. Likewiise, with that d/l and flat bottom you better keep it moving good through the waves going to weather or you are going to have a vomit machine. Open transom design - hope you like getting soaked from boarding seas, and hope you are tethered in good. Big plexi ports that can become stove in. Not my idea of a passagemaker.


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## captndave1 (Nov 25, 2016)

Go for the Bristol Channel Cutter, a proven ocean boat with safe cockpit as well as reasonable accommodations.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Stumble said:


> The second largest cause of sinking is a self draining cockpit that doesn't. The failure of self draining cockpits accounts for about one third of all recreational boats that sink.


Somehow I thought this discussion was about cruising boats, boats sailing offshore, etc., not unattended boats sitting in a marina or on some mooring.
Sorry, my mistake.


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

The problem is not self draining cockpits not draining but that a boat without a bridge deck in front of the companionway is very prone to flooding if pooped. Hopefully the wash boards will be in place but if they aren't, glub, glub, glub!!! Even with a bridge deck, the cabin will flood if the cockpit sides are higher than the bridge deck and no washboards in place. An open transom will drain faster but the cabin can be swamped without a bridge deck and/or wash boards in place when pooped. Worse for the open transom is there is no transom to keep the wave from boarding the boat.

A couple of years ago a traditional boat, think it was the Cheoy Lee knock off of the H28, sank entering the Golden Gate. Conditions weren't particularly bad and they were enjoying surfing into the Bay when an outsize wave pooped the boat and sank it almost instantly as the washboards weren't in place.

The Pogo style boats are great for short cruises, and solo ocean racing but they are not comfortable cruising boats. Very light weight compromises load carrying capacity, interiors are typically wide open for after race lounging but not for on ocean safety, storage compartments are minimal, they are VERY wet boats on the wind, and cockpits are marginal with flimsy back rests that look to be an extra cost option. For what most boats get used for, they are ideal but not for the long distance cruiser.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

roverhi said:


> The Pogo style boats are great for short cruises, and solo ocean racing but they are not comfortable cruising boats. Very light weight compromises load carrying capacity, interiors are typically wide open for after race lounging but not for on ocean safety, storage compartments are minimal, they are VERY wet boats on the wind, and cockpits are marginal with flimsy back rests that look to be an extra cost option. For what most boats get used for, they are ideal but not for the long distance cruiser.


I am with you there. I would love, love, love, a Pogo 30 for day sailing. For cruising not so much. Not enough storage, displacement, or fresh water. Way too many berths. Only a hint of galley and heads. What kind of twisted individual puts 6 berths in a 30 foot boat? That many berths is bad for racing, day sailing, AND cruising.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

It seems odd to see a discussion like this that does not mention the Cascade 29. These tough boats have sailed tens of thousands of open ocean miles. Bulk of them were built in the 70's, so their price is low nowadays. They lack the "condominium inside room for dancing" interiors of today's Second Homes With Masts, but their hulls are 100% hand laid roving. Part of a design series by NA Robert Smith, that also included the Cascade 42, 36 and 27.

Loren


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## pcmm (Jan 31, 2014)

Stumble said:


> The Pogo 30 is the little sister to the Pogo Class 40 and the big sister to the Pogo mini. Both of which are literly designed to sail around the world non-stop single handed. I would put the sea keeping ability of the 30 up against any full keel boat in the world. If you think they are day sailers then you really don't understand the boat. They are designed and built to round capes and handle anything the ocean can throw at it.
> 
> The 'lack of protection' you mentioned is really weird. First all of the controls are run to the hatch so the boat can be completely controlled from the hatch with no need to move aft. Second there is a hard dodger as an option that covers this area. Hard points are built in and ready for jack lines and tethers from the factory so if you do need to move aft it's already thought out.


I think you are confusing offshore racing with offshore cruising. The Pogo's are fantastic high-tech boats with lots of great cutting edge features that are great for racing, not so great for cruising. canting keels require maintenance, are complex and not what cruisers at all want. Cruisers want dependable, simple, robust systems that can be maintained anywhere, specially where shore support isn't always available.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

pcmm said:


> I think you are confusing offshore racing with offshore cruising. The Pogo's are fantastic high-tech boats with lots of great cutting edge features that are great for racing, not so great for cruising. canting keels require maintenance, are complex and not what cruisers at all want. Cruisers want dependable, simple, robust systems that can be maintained anywhere, specially where shore support isn't always available.


No I really am not confused. Canting keels are stupid on a cruising boat, luckily the Pogo doesn't use one or I wouldn't have mentioned it. The Pogo has a ballasted centerboard that rotated back. If it hits something the preassure release valve gives way and the whole thing gives way.

I get that this generation of boats isn't everyone's cup of tea. But to suggest they can't go cruising, while a lot of them are out there actually cruising is just silly. I think the first 10.50 left the yard in France for Australia on her own hull, and while i am sure a good number of Pogo's are raced if you want a race boat you buy one of their race boats (similar deck, different hull). These are now very well proven world cruisers sticking your head in the sand and claiming they can't be doing what they are actually doing is just silly.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Stumble said:


> The Pogo has a ballasted centerboard that rotated back. If it hits something the preassure release valve gives way and the whole thing gives way.
> These are now very well proven world cruisers sticking your head in the sand and claiming they can't be doing what they are actually doing is just silly.


"The Pogo has a ballasted centerboard that rotated back. If it hits something the preassure release valve gives way and the whole thing gives way." 
Leaving the rudder to take the hit? Now I *AM* impressed!
Have yet to see *ONE* "cruising" the Grenadines to St. Lucia. I guess we're just not in a very popular "cruising" area.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

I still don't understand how it could be a good cruising boat with the huge wide interior with absolutely zero handholds.
How are you supposed to make your way down below? Crawl on your hands and knees? I can't imagine it in any type of weather - getting tossed around below like a rag doll.

Same with the "open head" - no where to hold on to nor brace yourself. I absolutely cannot imagine using that head offshore. Would be easier to use a bucket in the cockpit.

10 gals water and 10 gals fuel won't last long. What's the solution there? A bunch of jerry cans high up on the sidedecks???? 

That big wide flat hull doesn't have much going for it in terms of righting if you get turtled. 

Like Capta, I have seen absolutely zero of these out cruising the S. Pacific. If so many are "out there cruising" why do we not see them??


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Lazerbrains said:


> Like Capta, I have seen absolutely zero of these out cruising the S. Pacific. If so many are "out there cruising" why do we not see them??


Ah, the 'cloak of invisibility' *DOES* exist! lol


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

You guys are hilarious, so if you haven't personally seen a boat it doesn't exist? Sad that people have spent so many million of dollars on boats that are just fictitious. 

It is amazing how quickly you are to disparage boats that you have never seen. Specifically boats that are actually out sailing around capes while you insiste that it simply can't be done for X reason. It's just sad. Let me guess anything short of a full keel, and bard door rudder is acceptable either? 

Hold on to what you think, while I go take a look at the laundry list of mini's crossing the Atlantic (or not since you haven't seen them). Or the number of Pogo's registered in this and past ARC's. Sad that those guys are going to die since the boats don't exist, and if they did would be grossly unsuitable for crossing the Atlantic. 

And just for the fun of it I looked up the numbers. The Pogo 40 (racing version) actually carries about the same amount of water a solar the Valiant 40. I really wish you guys boating education had continued past the 1960's. But to each their own.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

The OP said he liked the idea of cruising in a small (>30ft) boat because doing things minimally appealed to him. Given that, maybe the Pogo 30 is an option. I've never seen one, but if the pictures I see online do it justice, I think cruising aboard a Pogo 30 would qualify as "minimal". As Lazer noted, the tankage is pretty light; the Pogo 30 carries less water (43 vs. 36 gallons) and less fuel (21 gallons vs. 11 gallons) than a Catalina 30. The interior also looks pretty Spartan. But if the reviews are any indication, she makes up for it in pure joy of sailing.

And, if you read this review

Pogo 30 tested ? pocket performer with cruising aspirations

you will get a sense of why Stumble says the boat is ocean-ready and blue water cruisable. The reviewer - someone who presumably sails a lot of boats - says he's never enjoyed sailing any boat more. Period. That's saying something.

Pogo is obviously betting that there is a market for people who are willing to give up cruising comforts for great sailing. When you think about it, its not that different a marketing strategy from the Morris/Alerion luxury daysailers thinking: they are looking for that section of the market that knows they are not going to be cooking and eating (and maybe not even sleeping) aboard when they cruise. They can afford a boat like this, so they're going out to dinner when they get to port, maybe even staying at a B&B. They trade comfort aboard for the looks of the boat/thrill of sailing/etc.

If the OP's cruising plans are coastal, this may indeed be a good option for the OP. But I don't think anyone would want to cross an ocean on a Pogo 30.

And lest I forget, the boat is rated Class A, so you know its a blue water boat! (sorry, I saw that in one of the reviews and couldn't resist).


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

mstern said:


> The OP said he liked the idea of cruising in a small (>30ft) boat because doing things minimally appealed to him. Given that, maybe the Pogo 30 is an option. I've never seen one, but if the pictures I see online do it justice, I think cruising aboard a Pogo 30 would qualify as "minimal". As Lazer noted, the tankage is pretty light; the Pogo 30 carries less water (43 vs. 36 gallons) and less fuel (21 gallons vs. 11 gallons) than a Catalina 30. The interior also looks pretty Spartan. But if the reviews are any indication, she makes up for it in pure joy of sailing.


When asked what is *THE* single most important thing when seeking a full time, liveaboard, cruising boat, my answer is without a doubt, "livability". If I'm going to *LIVE* there I want it to be comfortable.
I don't know anybody (except maybe the guys doing round the world nonstop) who spends anywhere near as much time sailing as they do just living aboard, not underway.
We see the 'mini' boat cruisers in almost every anchorage and the vast majority are young, single men. As a matter of fact, there are two in this anchorage right now. They aren't unique or particularly rare, and yet even spending a great deal of time in two of the busiest transient anchorages in the West Indies (Admiralty Bay and St George's) somehow I've yet to see a Pogo. At 70, I still don't require glasses other than for reading, so we can't blame my not seeing these boats on dirty glasses.
Regarding disparaging a boat I've never "seen". As a marine professional for my whole life (not some retired stockbroker or dentist new to the scene), I'd say that my judgement when it comes to a boat I've never physically seen, but read about in depth, is based on more experience and knowledge than the guy who wrote the copy for the Pogo website.
Furthermore, I like boats, ALL BOATS. From rusty old working tugs to the condo like Lagoons. The livability of the Hunters is beyond question. That doesn't mean all are suitable to every need. I've sailed a trimaran ½ way around the world and last I checked it didn't have a long keel or barn door rudder. Hardly the 60's mentality you speak of. 
I'm just saying that a Pogo would make a lousy 'cruising' boat for most, for the reasons I and many others have stated. I *NEVER* said it was inappropriate for sailing the great capes (though I can think of a dozen+ other designs I'd prefer), should someone with the experience and knowledge wish to. That's a very, very few of us on this forum, I believe.
I get it, you like the Pogo. But do you really think that this would make the ideal first boat for someone who isn't yet a sailor, or without any liveaboard experience at all, as the OP seems to be?


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

The disconnect here may be that we don't know what the OP meant by "cruising". If he meant full-time, liveaboard cruising, then I can't imagine Stumble would say the Pogo 30 is an option, at least not without significant modifications. But for someone who is island hopping or just cruising in areas where services (like water) are available for a week or three at a time and doesn't need or want creature comforts, yeah, I could see the Pogo 30 as an option. But I'm guessing since he originally mentioned boats like the Dana, he's thinking more along the lines of liveaboard/long distance cruising. 

Kind of strange that the OP hasn't returned since he tossed this nugget our way. It was his first post. Did we scare him off, or was this just Smackdaddy having some fun? :wink


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## Shagbark (Dec 21, 2016)

I'm still here, just taking in all the comments. My intent is to be self sufficient for up to 1 month at a time, but not true live aboard as my wife will be expecting me to come back sometime. I prefer a newer boat because you never can tell how a PO has treated a boat in the past. Surveyors can't possibly catch everything. The Pogo isn't quite what I was looking for. I'd prefer a full keel, or at least a partial, something that will track with weight for stability. Speed isn't important, it's not about how fast I arrive, but just making the journey in the first place.


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

Shagbark said:


> I'm still here, just taking in all the comments. My intent is to be self sufficient for up to 1 month at a time, but not true live aboard as my wife will be expecting me to come back sometime. I prefer a newer boat because you never can tell how a PO has treated a boat in the past. Surveyors can't possibly catch everything. The Pogo isn't quite what I was looking for. I'd prefer a full keel, or at least a partial, something that will track with weight for stability. Speed isn't important, it's not about how fast I arrive, but just making the journey in the first place.


Another option is to buy an older hull you like in good shape and then have a quality ship yard to a complete restore. This gives you basically a new boat for a lower price than a "real" new boat of the type you describe. This is why few builders make new boats in this size.

I am talking about new gel coat, all new hardware, new steering, new engine, new wiring, new plumbing, etc. You basically end up with a brand new boat. This type of project is one of the main things keeping Pacific Seacraft in business still: At Pacific Seacraft the refit program has given us one more opportunity to provide a valuable service to our owners. We are forming mutually beneficial relationships with these folks and would like to encourage all current owners to make the journey . There are lots of other quality shipyards that will do the same thing.


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

To the OP, Shagbark, BUDGET?
I spent 4 months going down the east coast around Florida then up the Mobile River, Tennessee River ending up in Knoxville on board my Nor'sea 27. The nice thing about a Nor'sea is, while you are planing your next adventure, she can be parked on your property on the trailer avoiding the ransom demanded by the Pirates of the marinas.


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## Shagbark (Dec 21, 2016)

By cruiser, I'm referring to a heavy displacement boat, referably full keeled. The cockpit should be shallow with large scuppers. The hull thick with minimal thru-hulls. The deck and hull should be thru bolted, not riveted. Under canvas, she should track well and be well behaved in a blow. Speed is not a concern, instead I want the knowledge the the boat will return me and crew safely to shore. Down below, a sea berth would be nice, as well as plenty of storage. 

So far, I found three boats still in production that fits the bill: Nor'sea 27, Dana 24, and the Bristol Chanel Cutter.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Shagbark said:


> By cruiser, I'm referring to a heavy displacement boat, preferably full keeled. The cockpit should be shallow with large scuppers. The hull thick with minimal thru-hulls. The deck and hull should be thru bolted, not riveted. Under canvas, she should track well and be well behaved in a blow. Speed is not a concern, instead I want the knowledge the the boat will return me and crew safely to shore. Down below, a sea berth would be nice, as well as plenty of storage.
> 
> So far, I found three boats still in production that fits the bill: Nor'sea 27, Dana 24, and the Bristol Chanel Cutter.


I think that there are a number of the reasons that so few builders of "heavy displacement boat, preferably full keeled. The cockpit should be shallow with large scuppers. The hull thick" and they are produced in very small numbers. Part of it is that boats like these are very material intensive and so very expensive to construct. Another is that they are competing with essentially identical used boats which have been produced almost without change for decades and which have not experienced the kind of rigorous service life that they were intended for.

But also the marketplace has moved on largely because the science does not support this hull form and construction in terms of seaworthiness, motion comfort, tracking, carrying capacity, or the non-scientific but all so important issue of livability. People who might ahve purchased something like a Bristol Channel Cutter in the past, these days might buy something like a Hallberg Rassy 340, or Xc35, both of which have a similar displacement, but a lot more space, wildly more stability, greater ease of handling and performance. While there are details on the Hallberg that do not appeal to me for a long range cruiser, this does seem to be the general direction that the long range marketplace is moving.

To a great extent this is driven by the science and real life experience which suggest that within reason, waterline length is the single clearly identifiable factor in seaworthiness and motion comfort, followed by weight and buoyancy distribution and dampening. When you consider that the cost of boat building, ease of handling, carrying capacity, and to a lesser extent maintenance costs are proportional to displacement, not boat length, distance cruisers are identifying the displacement range that they need to support their lives, and buying longer boats for that displacement to improve motion comfort, seakindliness, and to some extent ease of handling.

While tracking is often cited as an advantage of a full keel, a balanced helm and lighter helms are favored today since they are easier on crews and self-steering gear. The full keel has fallen out of favor largely based on the fact that more sail area is needed to overcome the added drag from the full keel and its less effective rudder, which in turn results in some combination of carrying larger sails in almost all conditions and therefore needing more frequent sail changes, experiencing greater weather helm and heeling, some reduction in carrying capacity for the displacement due to the need for greater ballasting to stand up to the larger sail plan, greater helm loads, reduced ease of handling, and reduced performance.

While there may be some pragmatic basis for using a full length keel, most are easily overcome by careful design.

Lastly, I don't believe that Pacific Seacraft still builds the Dana 24, and last I heard, the Bristol Channel Cutters were no longer being produced. That said, Sam L. Morse still shows the Bristol Channel Cutter on its webpage so the news of their demise may not have been accurate.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## FreeAgent (Apr 19, 2017)

One boat many here may not know, is the Miura 30 (or 31). I don't believe they are still built, but they seem to fit the bill for anyone wanting to sail well offshore. They were originally built near one of the windiest cities in the world - Cape Town. Can be found used in many exotic places  Even in the USA! http://www.van-vugt.com/miura/summary.htm

Description: Miura | InlandSailing.co.za

Miura 31 for Sale (Sailing Boats) | TheYachtMarket

1987 Nebe Miura 31 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

from above:


> The Miura remains one of South Africa's favourite yachts, and one of the most successful designs to come out of the country. . . At just over 30' long, it is an incredible all rounder, for it seaworthiness, sea kindliness, general performance and cruising abilities.
> 
> These beautiful small yachts are inexpensive and simple, capable of sailing anywhere, and rugged as they come. They were designed for GRP production, and more that 250 were built.


Not suggesting this as a first choice, but it is a good example of a low cost minimal size world cruiser. A Contessa 32 might be another one to look at (26 really too small, but maybe ok for getting your feet wet (hopefully not literally!))


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Shagbark said:


> I'm still here, just taking in all the comments. My intent is to be self sufficient for up to 1 month at a time, but not true live aboard as my wife will be expecting me to come back sometime. I prefer a newer boat because you never can tell how a PO has treated a boat in the past. Surveyors can't possibly catch everything. The Pogo isn't quite what I was looking for. I'd prefer a full keel, or at least a partial, something that will track with weight for stability. Speed isn't important, it's not about how fast I arrive, but just making the journey in the first place.


I think you are over estimating the value of "new" or "newer" here. The basic hull of a fiberglass boat has an estimated life time of 100 years or so. We really don't know yet as they have not been around long enough to see age related failures. The other issue is even brand new boats have significant issues as they are essentially hand made, not mass produced, so there are issues even with a brand new boat. Any advantage the "new" boat has is small and only lasts a few years. Sure warranty might cover issues you have with the original standing rigging, or leaking water tank if it happens in the first couple of years, you still are out weeks or months trying to get it resolved. Working to get a warranty claim fulfilled is not always easy, especially if it happens far from a dealer. So even with a brand new boat you will need to have things serviced even in the first year. This is the main reason why few of this type of boats are still built today, not that they are competing with each other, but with the thousands of boats already built. So properly maintained a fiberglass boat can last almost indefinitely, certainly 100 + years.

If I was in your position I would look for a well maintained higher end production boat such as a Pearson, Ericson, C&C, Cape Dory etc. in the 27 to 33 foot range don't worry about the full keel thing. You are not likely to go far the first few years anyway. Just look for a boat that appears well maintained. Have fun enjoy learning how to sail, they all will be self sufficient for at least a few weeks at a time so you can get away. Then try to get out on other boats as well, perhaps crew on a racing team, volunteer as crew on a delivery, just get on as many kinds of boats as you can. Make yourself a nuisance, but offer food and beverages. Then after a few years you can sell your boat (quality production boats in good shape, priced well should always sell relatively quickly) or even give it away to a sea scouts type group for a tax write off as your only talking a few thousand dollars anyway. Then you will be in a position to make a more informed decision as to what you want in your long term boat. Best not to try to make your forever boat your first boat. Better to learn on a responsive boat, I would suggest a tiller also. But most of all have fun!


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

I have always liked the BCC 28 , well besides our boat . If you don't mind my asking what is the budget ? The BCC's have a very interesting trim tab type vane , I heard that the guy that made them doesn't anymore . But I would think he could tempted for one more $$. One thing I have noticed about the BCC is the Taffrial , the tiller is underneath it so it is not possible to lift the tiller . Every time I see a BCC the tiller is removed . Another thing I like about the BCC is the Sprit it is insane . . I wonder what a new BCC would cost today?


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

The BCC is beautiful, but I don't think it meets the OPs criteria. It is not a small boat. A BCC is longer, wider, deeper, heavier, and has more sail area than a Pacific Seacraft 34. A BCC has almost twice the displacement of a Nor'sea 27. It is really close to the same size as a Cape Dory 36.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Markwesti said:


> I have always liked the BCC 28 , well besides our boat . If you don't mind my asking what is the budget ? The BCC's have a very interesting trim tab type vane , I heard that the guy that made them doesn't anymore . But I would think he could tempted for one more $$. One thing I have noticed about the BCC is the Taffrial , the tiller is underneath it so it is not possible to lift the tiller . Every time I see a BCC the tiller is removed . Another thing I like about the BCC is the Sprit it is insane . . I wonder what a new BCC would cost today?





RainDog said:


> The BCC is beautiful, but I don't think it meets the OPs criteria. It is not a small boat. A BCC is longer, wider, deeper, heavier, and has more sail area than a Pacific Seacraft 34. A BCC has almost twice the displacement of a Nor'sea 27. It is really close to the same size as a Cape Dory 36.


Especially if the idea is to keep costs down due to size, they are charged by length over all is almost 38 feet, so your paying for 38 foot slip, and get the room of a 28 footer, not exactly a good trade off! Nice looking boats, and will take some rough seas but combine it with an outlandish buy in price and expensive running costs not really sensible. This is one boat I appreciate that others own! Would love to look at one in the slip next to me, but would not want to own one. Nice boats if one plans on voyaging permanently but that does not sound like the OP's goals.


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

Not really "sensible" , I agree . However the OP asked for a heavy displacement boat under 30 ft and of new construction , that certainly narrows the field . And the feeling I'm getting from Shag , money and being sensible is not a issue . A little bit OT here a few beers ago I met a guy in my marina he had a BCC 28 , and yes it was in a 35' slip our W 28 was in a 30' slp. Every time I went over to drool on his boat no one was on it , in tell one day he was there . We talked a little he told me he is only on it once a year during the Long Beach GP !


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Shagbark said:


> I prefer a newer boat because you never can tell how a PO has treated a boat in the past. Surveyors can't possibly catch everything.


I think the a key reason so few of the kind of boat you're describing (and in fact so few boats in general) are being produced is that you're wrong on these two points.

Properly built fiberglass boats have proven to be tremendously durable, and with good initial design decisions, the key points of failure are easily inspectable. Most people looking to go offshore find the used market provides better value.

Has someone compiled a list of cruising boats lost in recent memory - say 10 years - due to reasons other than human error? I think rig failure tops the list, followed by boats with existing structural issues (Cheeki Rafiki), and seacock issues.


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

Jeff_H said:


> and last I heard, the Bristol Channel Cutters were no longer being produced.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Jeff


I believe the BCC can still be built by Cape George Cutters in Port Townsend, WA.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> I believe the BCC can still be built by Cape George Cutters in Port Townsend, WA.


Something for the OP here:

Cape George Cutters § History § Cecil Lange / William Atkin / traditional full keel sailboat


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Markwesti said:


> I wonder what a new BCC would cost today?


Well when Morris was still building them they were around $400,000.

https://www.soundingsonline.com/news/goodbye-to-the-bristol-channel-cutter

I think if I was really interested in something like this I would likely have a one off built in wood.


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

Interesting read miatapaul thanks , I especially liked the last sentence .


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

I think I read somewhere that you could get a bare hull and deck for around $150,000 or so.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> I believe the BCC can still be built by Cape George Cutters in Port Townsend, WA.


If you're in that neck of the woods (and ok will over the OP's 30') you could get one of Bob's new cutters while they still have the tooling all out. Maybe could even get in on the volume-discount pricing.


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

A more recent article...

Seems one BCC has been built/launched as recently as last year.

Cape George Marine Works preps sailboat | Business | ptleader.com


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

'Hoping to build the next one in 20 months' Cape George sure doesn't rush construction. That's an awfully long time and a lot of man hours for any boat, especially one that size. With all that time and hours, not even counting material, cost for a new BCC could make a 40' catamaran look cheap. Launched our Westsail kit in 12 months and I was a complete novice when I started with limited budget and tools. Can't imagine how much one of the Cape George boats would cost.

Check out the Vancouver 27. They used to be built in Canada and England. Surprisingly roomy boats with a well earned sea going reputation and they should fit in an under 30' slip. 

Buying a new boat gets everything new but warranties usually don't extend more than a few months for the equipment and there are often many teething issues. Then there is the big elephant in the room, depreciation. Are you willing to take a 30% or larger hit when it comes time to sell and it will come. I'd look for a well found boat that has had good maintenance at a good price. If you wanted to stretch a bit there is a Cape George 31 for sale in Honolulu that has a good pedigree for under $50,000 asking.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Yes, Vancouver 27 is an excellent choice.


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