# Recommend a Boat Yard in San Francisco?



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

We are moving out Beneteau First 435 to San Francisco. Can someone recommend a good boat yard? Our rig is a bit complicated, so one with good riggers would be desirable. Spoke with Svendsen’s and detected a bit of the “high-end” attitude…we prefer yards that are a little more reasonable with costs…


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## meuritt (Aug 25, 2008)

Svens has a great reputation. 

If you want DIY, try Berkely Marine Center.

I just had work done at The Boat Yard at Grand Marina, Alameda, and was satisfied with their work.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

You think Svendsens is snooty, try going to SF boat works. They can outdo anyone on prices. Seriously, Svendsens has good riggers, KKMI in Richmond is also very good. Don't let anyone tell you that the riggers at West Marine are good. They are lousy. Its the Bay area, its going to be expensive, you will get what you pay for. Stay away from Sausalito too, the tend to over charge there. Call Pineapple Sails and Rooster sails for recommendations, both in Alameda. Good people that will rec other good people.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks – that’s very helpful. What have you heard about Berkeley Boat Works?

Over the phone, Svensen’s was just a bit worrisome…we have had such terrible experiences with marine contractors that I may be a bit paranoid at this point.


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## jstroup (Sep 11, 2007)

I had my boat commissioned at KKMI and was very happy with both the work and the people.

judie


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## Vitesse473 (Mar 16, 2008)

I've spent a small fortune at both KKMI and Svendsen's. Both do top notch work with industry standard pricing, but they are boatyards, so you do need to ride them like donkeys to get the job done, and watch them like hawks to ensure they aren't guessing how many hours they've spent working on your boat. Call Chris Tibbs at Svendsen's. He's the Rig boss and a very good guy. Also important is that the Svendsen's chandlery is well stocked, and a lot cheaper than WM. If you are brave enough, you can sometimes negotiate a price with them. I think they got tired of me asking for deals on stainless screws, though.

Agreed on avoiding Sausalito. Priiiiiiiccccceeeey and snnnnnoooootttty!


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

I think it really depends on what work you are planning to have done. I've heard horror stories about both Svendsens and Berkeley. I hate to burst bubbles here (because Svendys is highly regarded in most cases). I like their Chandlery, but my neighbor had problems with the yard in billing for a water heater refit; and apparently they really dragged their feet on the other work. A fellow N-41 owner had a horrible experience at Berkeley; they pulled his mast and then let the boat sit un-finished for almost 6 months. The work that was done could have been finished in less than 1 month. At the end they said "you are not a priority" (WTF is that supposed to mean?). I have heard good things about KKMI; but they are also considered on the expensive side. Where are you moving your boat here from? Is this boat being shipped cross-country or ?

There are other yards I could suggest but I would need to know what your specific needs are.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

I highly recommend Bay Marine in Richmond CA. No frills, courteous, reasonable and competent.
Welcome to Bay Marine Boatworks
I would avoid SF Boat Works and Svendsens like the plague (having used both)! Though, you can't beat the Svendsens chandlery.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Boy, do we wish we had seen KeelHaulin’s posting before deciding to have the boat off-loaded at Berkeley Marine Center…


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

Like everything else, you get what you pay for. Berkeley Marine Center is well known and highly regarded as a DIY. It would be close to impossible to find a yard more efficiently or completely organized to insure that casual boaters can do or get done what they need in an environmentally acceptable way. That's a tall order when you consider what goes on or comes off a boat any day of the week as toxic material....Especially in SF Bay, and especially, especially in Berkeley.
The yard is always full. Like a good restaurant, if you can't get a table you've got a good restaurant. Their technical help is outstanding but again, sometimes you've got to get in line to get it. You won't find a better rigger or shipwright in the state...well worth waiting for.
I like BMC...I take my own boat there.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Ya know... If they don't turn the boats over; the yard will always look "full". 6 months to pull a stick and re-rig it is inexcusable; let alone the difficulty the OP ended up having with his boat (he PM'd me the gory details).

Did I forget to mention the crappy job of sealing the mast partners they did; or the fact that they forgot to replace hose clamps; or properly tighten thru-hull fittings? I was not the customer; but glad I was not and won't take my boat there - ever.


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

Well, if you weren't the customer, I'm disinclined to put any credence in your 'facts'.
I never said the yard was perfect, and I doubt you'll find one that is. But you will find, without much looking, any number in the area that are way worse and that will take more of your money for being so.
Bad experiences happen..that doesn't mean the yard is bad, it means that you had a bad experience. Balance that against good experiences and you end up with a yard that IS good.. by any measure. Sometimes their techs will even go to your boat. My opinion is contrary to yours, obviously, but I do take my boat there, and I'm happy to do so.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Berkely Marine Center gets a high five from me. Cree is a knowledgable, and good man. He gives advice freely, knows his stuff, and *FAIR*.

Svend's has given me both good service, and an attempt at a reaming. I would never return to Svend's, because of the latter.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

As far as a slip goes. I would go to Emeryville Yacht Harbour. The harbor Master, Diane, is easy to get along with, and helpful. PLace makes for a great downwind sail after a hard day on the bay......i2f


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

In my book; a yard that tells the owner of their boat "you are not a priority" after waiting 6 months for a re-rig is just not worth wasting my time or money on. If I wanted my boat to sail into a black hole; I'd surely pick one of the cosmic variety rather than BMC. If the fishing boats get "priority" then I'd just assume take my boat to a yard that mainly repairs sailboats because if I'm going to wait in line for something it better be a line where I don't keep getting shoved to the back. If you were a new boat owner would you want to wait 6 months to sail it because of yard delays? Would you think it is fair to be told "you are not a priority" after their rig shop got the measurements wrong for the wire (and had to drop the mast and re-do the rigging)? I'm sorry but something is terribly wrong with their business model and how they handle customers who must rely on their people for a repair. In addition to lost sailing time my friend lost about 2k in slip fees since the boat was stuck sitting in the yard.

Let me make an example. If yard XYZ were working on BMW/Oracle boat(s) and every guy there was putting in 7 of 8 hrs a day of work on it; how would you feel if they said "you are not our priority" while they attended to every detail on those boats? Would you say "OK I'm just a small fry and I deserve to wait while the race boat gets polished; because yard XYZ gets more money" or would you give the yard manager the finger and take your boat elsewhere?

I've learned from these situations not to go into a yard without in addition to an estimate for cost; a date that the boat is promised by.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

"Thekeip" are you the electronics guy at Berkeley Marine Center?


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

Yes.
I am not employed by BMC, but I do work there. Actually, I'm retired.

keelhaulin:
BMC didn't have their own rigging facility until roughly a year ago...I think.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*A little disclosure would have been good...*

A little disclosure would have been appropriate. We are customers, or friends of customers...before commenting on us, you should have revealed that you "work there"...our experience was so problematical, that I am unsure about sharing it publically&#8230;if someone knows an attorney in the San Francisco area with experience representing "victimized" boat owners, we would sure like to hear about them..


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## Mc51 (Mar 10, 2007)

I strongly reccomend that if you use KKMI, you get a written copy of the quote up front if. They were real nice people, the yard was very nice, but the final price was four times what I was quoted on the phone.

Mc


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Mc51 said:


> I strongly reccomend that if you use KKMI, you get a written copy of the quote up front if.


I think that applies to any yard. Unfortunately if you casually ask any yard "how much to do this"; it does not include all of the work to prep your boat for doing that job (like haulout, yard lay days, other unforseen prep work). KKMI has an excellent reputation and without knowing what work they quoted you for relative to their billed hours I can't say if they over-charged you. There have been problems with BMC and Svendsens in this regard; but KKMI from what I have heard is pretty up-front about what they charge the customer and their service work is known to be excellent (although their prices are on the high side).



thekeip said:


> keelhaulin:
> BMC didn't have their own rigging facility until roughly a year ago...I think.


The work I was referring to was contracted by BMC and the rigging was measured and "outsourced" to be built by the rig shop at Svendsens. It all really should not taken more than a month or two (max) to do.

You know in regards to these issues with various yards; I would say that it is true that not everyone is going to have a good experience at even the best boat yard. It all boils down to making sure that the work you contract to have done is completed within a reasonable amount of time and correctly; with written price and time estimates are provided prior to starting work. I think it's more a matter of caveat emptor than anything; we put too much trust in the promises that yard managers make and their memory for quoting work and scheduling abilities VS their actual billed time and delivery dates.


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

So, your friend's work (rigging) was "outsourced" over a year ago. To whom, did you say?? I'd say that BMC recognized a problem and rectified it__big time They now do their own. Take a look at the BMC ad in the current Latitude for amplification

But it's OK to exceed an estimate....by 4 times ?? Is that what you meant??

Regarding disclosure: As a contractor, I can work most anywhere I'm invited. I haven't anything bad to say about any yard...I didn't and I don't. I AM very choosy however, where I work, and have cast my lot with BMC for a lot of reasons...fair play being just one of them.
Fair play...what a concept. Think about it.
Howard Keiper
Berkeley


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

The rigging work was contracted to BMC; so bottom line was it was their job. They subcontracted Svendsens to build the wire and between the two they got the measurements wrong. I think BMC incorrectly measured the rigging when they ordered it; but I can't tell you exactly what happened.

I never said it was OK to exceed an estimate by 4x. I said that if you don't know exactly what it will cost (including all associated prep work); how do you know what your final bill will be? I'd be very angry if they handed me a bill for 4x what they estimated; and I'd probably prusue a legal claim if I had a written estimate. But I don't know what the circumstances were in his case and I can't really say who is right or wrong.

In the case of my friends' boat all I can say is that BMC did him wrong by letting the work go unfinished for nearly 5 months. If it was a problem with going to Svendsens for rig components, well shame on both of them for putting competition in front of their customer's needs; but in the end it was BMC who called a paying customer a "non-priority".


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## dgr (Apr 13, 2008)

thanks for this thread. I'm looking for a boat yard so it is quite useful.

I have what may be a dumb question. Why have your rigging done at a boatyard? It seems to me that you are already paying for your slip. I'd also guess that they are floating your boat to replace the rigging so why wouldn't you just have it done in your slip?

I'm probably missing something here but that was how I did it. They didn't finish on the day promised which was an annoyance as we did miss a weekend we expected to be on the boat. But it was a pretty quick job. And I had all the leverage. They can't take down your rigging until they are actually installing the new stuff.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Well here is what happened in a nutshell. A fellow prospective owner of a N-41 contacted me and was asking about his potential purchase. We chatted via e-mail for a couple of months and he was considering purchasing a boat that a friend of his owned. His friend finally decided to put the boat up for sale with a broker and so this friend of mine decided he wanted to have it surveyed and consider a private purchase. They agreed to have it hauled at BMC because it was berthed in Emeryville as it needed bottom paint anyway.

So my friend has it surveyed; and I went to look at it on the day of survey. Looked like a nice boat; but the standing rigging was 25 years old; and rod rigging. We had discussed this earlier and I let him know that the rod rigging is a concern because of it's age; and since it's rod you really don't know if it is fatigued or not. The surveyor noted the same and suggested that it either be surveyed/x-rayed or replaced. So they agreed to split the cost of the rigging job; with wire rigging instead of rod.

Since the boat was hauled and in the yard my friend decided might as well just have the rigging work done by the yard since it was already there and on stands. The yard assured him that they could do the work (no need for a rigger to come in) and that it was routine to send the order to Svendsens.

My friend never intended to be there more than a month or two max; as he had just purchased it and I'm sure was eager to have his boat out on the water. I don't know why but it took an incredibly long time for the first set of wire to go on (like 3 months); and just as long for the replacement set. You'd think that after f'ing it up the first time they would put his rigging on priority and get new wire made to the proper size in a week or two (max), but no it sat for another 2.5 months. He hauled the boat in December; and did not get it back until mid-May; all the while paying slip fees because he had transfered the nice slip location to his name during the pruchase.

In terms of replacing the rigging in the slip; well tough to do on a boat that has a 55' keel stepped mast. You could pull it with the boat in the water at a yard that has a dockside crane; but you certainly could not do this work in your slip (unless you like going 55' up and disconnecting/connecting shrouds multiple times).


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Mc51 – funny you should recommend that… After we finally got the boat out of Berkeley Marine Center, we immediately took it to KKMI. The difference was dramatic. Within a few days, KKMI had taken care of almost everything. It wasn’t cheap, but they did things well and promptly. Would highly recommend them as well.


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## dgr (Apr 13, 2008)

KeelHaulin said:


> In terms of replacing the rigging in the slip; well tough to do on a boat that has a 55' keel stepped mast. You could pull it with the boat in the water at a yard that has a dockside crane; but you certainly could not do this work in your slip (unless you like going 55' up and disconnecting/connecting shrouds multiple times).


That's why riggers have jobs, no? You say could not but I'm reading would not. Is that correct? I see guys up the mast all the time. Can't say that they are 55' up but the boats they are working on are bigger than the boat we are talking about.

I'm just curious as I wouldn't think it a bad idea to go up a mast, brace it, have someone disconnect the bottom of a shroud and replace it. Repeat. But, I've done some stupid stuff in my life and have the scars to prove it.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Usually it's just easier and less time consuming to drop the mast down and replace everything in one shot. Getting a chance to re-wire the masthead, change sheaves, or do a detailed inspection of the mast and spreaders makes it worthwhile and in the long run less expensive than doing everything while aloft. Most riggers who do full replacement of shrouds/stays will want the mast down to do the work since the time saved in labor is more than what the crane time costs.


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## JiffyLube (Jan 25, 2008)

Two years ago before I brought our boat down from San Francisco to San Diego, I had all out engine work done at Mariner Boat Yard on Alameda (lots of deferred maintenance). The quote was very close to the actual bill, and I have not had any problems with their work to this day.

For those that think prices are high in SF, prices are higher in San Diego...that's why I had all boat work done in SF.

Before I went with Mariner Boat Yard I was going to use a local diesel engine mechanic that came recommended, but after agreeing with his price on the work I wanted to have done (quite a bit of work), I could never get him pinned down on a start date. After trying many times for a start date I gave up on him, and gave Svendsens a call. Svendsens sent a person over to our boat to see what I wanted done, and a couple of days later Svendsens called me to give me a price. It turned out that the mechanic that I was first going to go with also did work for Svendsens, and I also found out that Svendsens farms out their extra work. Svendsens had asked this mechanic about this boat they wanted to give a price on, and the mechanic told Svendsens he knew this boat, and told Svendsens he wouldn't do this boat for less than $#,###.00. Svendsens put profit on top the mechanic's price, and when I got Svendsens price I almost fell down. So I told Svendsens no thank you, and contacted Mariner Boat Yard. Mariner Boat Yard's price was considerable less that Svendsens, and Mariner Boat Yard had their own mechanics. 

Mariner Boat Yard did the work they said they would, for basically the price they said they would do it for, and did the work in a timely period of time...so I personally would use them again of I was in San Francisco.


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## windsaloft (Jun 1, 2007)

*Go KKMI*

After a handful of ugly boatyard experiences, and hearing many of our friend's stories of the same, I took some good advice: Just go to KKMI.

I was scared of the reputation of pricey, but they proved what my parents' taught me young --- you can pay a little more for a good product, or go cheap and replace / redo it later. In addition -- you have to look at the bigger picture -- while the hourly rate sounds high, their incredibly efficient layout of the chandlery, the engine barge, and the rigging area keeps those hourly totals a lot lower. In the end, I am convinced that I paid less at KKMI for the same work as I would have elsewhere, and the quality was top notch.

KKMI was on top of the estimating, kept me in the loop as changes needed to be made and got each approved, made a few errors and brought them to our attention and made good on them, and consistently sought to ensure that they operated with the utmost integrity.

This doesn't mean you can drop off your boat, go to Napa, and expect it all to be done perfectly and on time --- you need to be involved with the boat, the mechanic and the project manager to make sure that things keep going smoothly during the project, and questions are answered along the way. I'd suspect this lesson is at the heart of many boatyard horror stories.

Lastly, we have now become repeat customers, and if you lives in the SFBay area, you become part of the family -- the seminars they give are great, and we have developed friendships with a handful of folks from the yard. I know that wherever I am in the world, I can call for some good advice, and they'll give it.

We are a run of the mill, 33' sailboat -- nothing big or fancy -- we are "the little guy" but felt we got equal service as the big buck customers.


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## JiffyLube (Jan 25, 2008)

windsaloft said:


> This doesn't mean you can drop off your boat, go to Napa, and expect it all to be done perfectly and on time --- you need to be involved with the boat, the mechanic and the project manager to make sure that things keep going smoothly during the project, and questions are answered along the way. I'd suspect this lesson is at the heart of many boatyard horror stories.


I will agree with you on this statement. Involvement is very important.


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## PearsonCommander (Feb 10, 2009)

That was exactly our experience.

The cost issue becomes even more favorable when you consider that the earlier boat yard did a great deal of damage. For instance, they left stains on our deck that we can’t get out…if it ends of in a repaint/rebed of the deck….ouch!


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

KeelHaulin said:


> Usually it's just easier and less time consuming to drop the mast down and replace everything in one shot. Getting a chance to re-wire the masthead, change sheaves, or do a detailed inspection of the mast and spreaders makes it worthwhile and in the long run less expensive than doing everything while aloft. Most riggers who do full replacement of shrouds/stays will want the mast down to do the work since the time saved in labor is more than what the crane time costs.


Besides, if the stick hasn't been pulled in 25 years I would say it's time. I think at the very least, the base should be inspected for corrosion.


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## PearsonCommander (Feb 10, 2009)

*More Berkeley Marine Center Nightmares!!!*

Did you guys see this posting over on the website Yelp?

"If I could give this boatyard "0" stars I would! To sum up the sad story of "Lady Elizabeth," I brought my historic 60-year-old sailboat to Berkeley Marine Center to be fixed but instead they almost destroyed the boat! The owner, Cree, is incredibly rude, but what really hurts is the $16,000-plus damage he and his yard did to my unfortunate boat. They tied her at the shallow end of their fuel dock, causing the boat to be grounded for several days in windy conditions. A 12-inch long piece of wood was broken at the front of the keel and the 7,000lb. ballast shoe at the bottom of the keel was ripped off. The boatyard has ignored my phone calls and refused registered letters. Their insurance company tells me the BOATYARD has to initiate a claim, not me! Worst of all, the 15- to 18-foot piece of sharp metal ripped from my boat is still there in 6 1/2 feet of water, half buried in the mud, waiting to damage another boat which makes the mistake of going to Berkeley Marine Center to be "fixed."


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

PearsonCommander said:


> Did you guys see this posting over on the website Yelp?


I remember when this happened. A friend of mine was the diver who located the lost keel. The truth of the matter is that "Lady Elizabeth" was a real POS. Just another of many old wooden junkpiles who's owner believes to be a valuable classic. BMC tied the boat up at their fuel dock (if memory serves, they had declined to haul it for fear of it breaking up in the slings. But I could be wrong about that) and while there, the keel simply fell off the boat. While the water depth at the fuel dock may not have been enough to keep her out of the mud at low tide, boats in SF Bay Area marinas often have to deal with silted-in slips. Putting the keel in the very soft mud at the Berkeley Marine Center would not jeopardize a well-found, seaworthy boat. This thing was ready to die and the owner wanted the BMC to pick up the tab for the funeral.

Edit: I just went to Yelp! and read the reviews. That most recent is particularly amusing. Apparently written by a SailNet user, he claims that Cree Partridge (owner of BMC) recently held "a bunch of people hostage" for hours over a billing disagreement, resulting in a police action. What complete bullsh*t. The problem with review sites like Yelp! is that any a**hole with a bone to pick can make up any lie they want and post it as truth. And there are plenty of morons who will buy it hook, line and sinker.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

nparadis5476 said:


> A little disclosure would have been appropriate. We are customers, or friends of customers...before commenting on us, you should have revealed that you "work there.


I agree "Thekeip". You state that you take your boat to Berkeley, but conveniently leave out that you work there. Not only do you probably have a interest in promoting (and defending) the yard, but the experience you have with your boat there is likely to be very different from ours. Then, you have the gaul to question another members credibility because "they were not the customer". Not good!


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

*Fair play?*



thekeip said:


> Regarding disclosure: As a contractor, I can work most anywhere I'm invited. I haven't anything bad to say about any yard...I didn't and I don't. I AM very choosy however, where I work, and have cast my lot with BMC for a lot of reasons...fair play being just one of them.
> Fair play...what a concept. Think about it.
> Howard Keiper
> Berkeley


If you don't have anything "bad" to say about any Bay Area boatyards, you are either not paying attention, have very low standards or tremendous luck! More likely, you are too smart to s*** where you eat. I'm "thinking" about the concept of fair play, and don't understand what you are getting at. I do know that "fair play" and Internet etiquette dictate that you should disclose a working relationship you have with an establishment you are critiquing! Simply saying "I work as a contractor at BMC, and have my boat worked on there as well. I have found that...." is all that is needed. Anything less is disingenuous at best! I have never set foot in BMC. Considering what I have seen in this thread, and the fact that you "cast your lot" there makes me think I never will.


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

I never said I didn't have negative opinions about other yards...I do. I said I didn't have bad things to say about any yard. That's true too. You should learn something from that...It's quite evident you don't understand.
Get over it.


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## JiffyLube (Jan 25, 2008)

PearsonCommander said:


> Did you guys see this posting over on the website Yelp?
> 
> "If I could give this boatyard "0" stars I would! To sum up the sad story of "Lady Elizabeth," I brought my historic 60-year-old sailboat to Berkeley Marine Center to be fixed but instead they almost destroyed the boat! The owner, Cree, is incredibly rude, but what really hurts is the $16,000-plus damage he and his yard did to my unfortunate boat. They tied her at the shallow end of their fuel dock, causing the boat to be grounded for several days in windy conditions. A 12-inch long piece of wood was broken at the front of the keel and the 7,000lb. ballast shoe at the bottom of the keel was ripped off. The boatyard has ignored my phone calls and refused registered letters. Their insurance company tells me the BOATYARD has to initiate a claim, not me! Worst of all, the 15- to 18-foot piece of sharp metal ripped from my boat is still there in 6 1/2 feet of water, half buried in the mud, waiting to damage another boat which makes the mistake of going to Berkeley Marine Center to be "fixed."


I wonder what the insurance company representing the owner of Lady Elizabeth had to say?...or did they have insurance?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have been watching this thread for some time “not wanting to get involved…”

But the post by “Fstbttm” finally made me jump in…

We also had a terrible experience at Berkeley Marine Center. But more importantly, I was an eye witness to the “hostage taking” episode he refers to…it really did happen. I wasn’t as bad as the description on Yelp, but it was dramatic and frightening. A large number of police were there. The owner used his truck to block the exit from the yard and a bunch of people (including myself) were trapped for about an hour. He wouldn’t even move his truck when the police asked him to do so…it took them at least 30 minutes to convince him to do so. The workers at the yard were all milling about drinking beer out of brown paper bags.

Anyone who can’t decide about this yard based on this thread, should just drive down there and compare its appearance to a well run yard like Svensens and KKMI. The place is a mess, disorganized and unclean. The haul-out area also looks to have inadequate depth and the docks and work areas seem unsafe.

One last thing. “Fstbttm” - no matter how old or dilapidated a boat is, it’s the owners pride and joy. Calling it derogatory names is not acceptable.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Carter33 said:


> IAnyone who can't decide about this yard based on this thread, should just drive down there and compare its appearance to a well run yard like Svensens and KKMI. The place is a mess, disorganized and unclean. The haul-out area also looks to have inadequate depth and the docks and work areas seem unsafe.


It's a friggin' boatyard, for God's sake, not a Mercedes dealership. Yes, it's smaller than the other yards you mentioned and there are other businesses on the premises to add the the hubbub, but BMC is no more messy or unclean than any other yard. And as to your other aspersions that the docks are unsafe or that there is inadequate depth at the Travellift, both are simply untrue. In fact, the depth of water at BMC is greater than that at Svendsen's. I know because I have spent time in the water and on the docks at both places.



Carter33 said:


> One last thing. "Fstbttm" - no matter how old or dilapidated a boat is, it's the owners pride and joy. Calling it derogatory names is not acceptable.


I disagree. The owner of the POS in question wanted a local marine businessman to accept responsibility for the owner's lack of proper maintenance. When the businessman refused to do so (ie: not hauling the boat) and the boat failed anyway, the boat owner took every opportunity to badmouth the businessman. I don't think calling a spade a spade is unwarranted here.


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## PearsonCommander (Feb 10, 2009)

*What where you doing in the water at Berkeley?*

Fastbottoms, if you have been in the water at Berkeley Marine Center, is it possible you provide commercial services there? If you do, then this is the second time this has happened on this thread&#8230;see *Thekeip* up above&#8230;


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## PearsonCommander (Feb 10, 2009)

Just found this comment on Berkeley Marine Center over on Yahoo:

*"1 star is a gift. During my first visit to this yard, the employees somehow managed to throw away an entire box of bronze fastenings, cleats and gear for my mast - including the gooseneck to attach the boom to the mast! And the box it under my boat. The owner refused to replace anything other than a providing me with a bag of stainless screws for my mast track. Next, while in the hauling ways, one of the employees managed to drop an entire gallon of bottom paint on my deck. while cleaning it up they moved my NEW spinnaker pole to the travel lift track. I realized it was missing the next day. After talking to Cree ( the owner) he laughed a said HE had run it over, crushing it and then he refused to replace it.

There is so much more to say, but it just gets worse.

Go to any other yard on the Bay. It may be convenient, but only when considering location. I've dealt with many yards on the bay over the years and they are all better. Svendsens is a great choice and the employees are knowledgeable and pleasant"*


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## PearsonCommander (Feb 10, 2009)

And this one too!

*"by Dan 12/14/2008 
Awful is the one star rating and this place is lucky to get that! The staff don't like boats!

I watched a boat get dropped in this place and the staff, including the yard manager, acted like it was a joke.

Their equipment is falling apart and no one cares. Just look at the tires and the rigging on their lift. Not the place to go if you like your boat.

The location is great but it is worth driving to Napa or Svens to do work on your boat. And thinking of having the work done by BMC?!?!? Good luck. They will take forever, not do a good job and then overcharge you.

Before taking your boat to this place go there, walk around, talk to people working on their boats, listen to the staff in the yard and then see what you think. Then go and do the same thing at Svens or Napa. You won't go to BMC."*


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

Commander...

What the hell is wrong with you?
There are a number of professionals working at BMC at any given time...in the water, on the water, in a boat, on the hard, anywhere at all...any yard at all. I disagree with your mostly ill informed assertions regarding the yard. As a contractor, I work a number of yards and I don't feel obligated to explain my relationship with any of them...or if there even is a relationship at all.
However, I WOULD recommend that any potential customers do exactly what was suggested and visit the yard for themselves...and talk to the management. 
Howard Keiper


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

PearsonCommander said:


> Fastbottoms, if you have been in the water at Berkeley Marine Center, is it possible you provide commercial services there? If you do, then this is the second time this has happened on this thread&#8230;see *Thekeip* up above&#8230;


No, I don't have any affiliation with the BMC. I have dived boats there at their request but have no ongoing business relationship with them.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

thekeip said:


> Commander...
> 
> As a contractor, I work a number of yards and I don't feel obligated to explain my relationship with any of them...or if there even is a relationship at all.Howard Keiper


As I (and others) have attempted to explain to you, both in the forum and directly, you DO have an obligation to disclose your professional relationship with a yard you are recommending, defending, etc.. You apparently have not read the forum rules, so I'll quote the applicable one for you here:

2. Some of the most helpful and knowledgeable members of our community are those who also are in a marine business. Due to the potential conflict of interest in your advice to members, we require that your on line signature disclose your commercial affiliation. (i.e. "Joe Sailor - President Cheap Sails Inc.")

Hopefully, a moderator will step in and convince you (or put a leash on you), since no one else can. Hate to turn this into an off topic fire fight, but your arrogance is unbelievable! I'll "get over it" when you grow up and play by the rules.


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

I don't understand the difficulty you seem to be having with my non-affiliation with any particular yard. I am not employed by BMC. I DO like working there however, and do so whenever I can....it's convenient for me. I like to think they benefit from my expertise as well.
Maybe you could check with me every couple of days to see if I'm at a yard you approve of.
Howard Keiper


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

THEKEIP - don’t you remember telling me that you had “sold your soul to Berkeley Marine.” I acknowledge that you were joking, but there is often some truth in humor. You have a degree of bias here that it should have been revealed…

(By the way – I spent the week with a bunch of senior GE electrical engineers working on a MRI scanner. They said that your assertion that a standard FM antenna would work as well as splicing into the coax going up the mast was totally wrong. They said that the 60 foot coax would make an exceptional FM antenna…just and FYI)


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

Hacking into your VHF antenna (or 'splitting' it) for your FM has been a technical no-no for a long time. You DON"T get the expected benefit of that 60' mast, but you DO degrade your VHF performance. That's not opinion.
If you want to hoist an FM antenna,go for it. You will find, however, that your efforts are only marginally better than a 'standard', high quality FM antenna at a reasonable height.
I presume the MRI engineers know a lot about MRI...
Howard


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

thekeip said:


> Commander...
> 
> What the hell is wrong with you?....
> Howard Keiper


It seems like it was only a matter of time before this thread degenerated into profanity&#8230;..

Maybe all those posters who work for, at or indirectly for this yard might go start a thread of their own (I could suggest some topics - but will refrain&#8230;

On a more serious note, review of the posts and the web indicates we may have a rogue boatyard on our hands that is regularly damaging people's boats. This is the power of the web - we can warn each other. If only one owner reads this thread and is waived off, it will all have been worthwhile.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Carter33 said:


> Maybe all those posters who work for, at or indirectly for this yard might go start a thread of their own (I could suggest some topics - but will refrain&#8230;


Maybe you should consider contributing more than three posts before you tell others here what to do.


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## thebrushand (Apr 5, 2009)

We have experience of KKMI and BMC and I guess it is horses for courses, dependent on the extent of the work you want doing, and the sort of environment you prefer.

At KKMI it is very business-like, but we felt very uncomfortable with the high end sailing atmosphere and the final billing of a small job. We were ever present and on top of the job all the way through, but the hours billed were scandalously high. Of the 6 hours, about 1 hour was actual hands on labour, the rest was waiting for epoxy to dry, and general faffing around. If itemising "epoxy mixing pot 25 cents", on a bill which includes labour at $105 an hour is a reflection of business-like, then KKMI are very business-like for small repairs, but not for us. 

At BMC, we had a fairly good experience with the yard itself for a long haul out. ie the office accomodated our boat at fairly short notice, were happy for us to live aboard while we put our heart and soul into redoing the boat, Cree is an absolute gentleman and gave us so much help and advice when he didnt really need to. When we needed masts restepping, or a berth in the basin, it was done, despite a lot of mucking around for their schedulers, and their deal with Svens meant that between the 2 chandleries, we hardly ever had to waste time on trips to get materials. 

I think they dealt with genuine rigging issues by bringing in a fully fledged full-time contractor on site, so that rigging criticism is probably old news now.

We saw some incidents, sure, in one case, a boat got dropped on the hard, but it seemed to be dealt with seriously. If injured parties expected the yard workers to break down in tears of remorse, they were probably disappointed by the more pragmatic attitude of hands on heads in disbelief. But they had a philosophical and practical approach, which, in the topsy turvy boatworld is more professional, IMO. (And just to say, back in the day, the super business-like KKMI dropped a huge boat which nearly cost them their business, let alone their reputation, ie stuff happens all the time everywhere and random issues dont make a case for a wholesale damning.) 

I think the commenter who keeps banging on about his mate incurring slip fees while BMC let them down, i am pretty sure that the BMC policy is that you dont pay for lay over days that are down to their oversight. so that person wouldnt have been out of pocket as such, just not in his slip of choice!

For the most part, BMC staff and contractors like thekeip are a pleasure to deal with, as they dont have this horrible attitude of working an "angle" on everything they do, and if you know how to be polite and persistent - and ever present - and not a drama queen, things get done. But hey, we are talking boats, those objects full of unforseen issues which dont always respect busy schedules.

And being straightforward people, it doesnt surprise me if they got proactive when a customer does the wrong thing by trying to get away without paying, or whatever the cause of the "hostage taking incident" was.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Why is it that people with ONE POST tend to bash KKMI for being overly expensive and give BMC glowing reviews when those of us who have been on this board a long while and talked to customers of both yards or have had direct experience with both are posting the EXACT OPPOSITE?

I'm sorry you had to pay $.25 for an epoxy cup; but for big jobs the materials add up and the yard usually builds a chandlery ticket for each customer. If you need consumables you pay it at the counter; without questioning why you need to pay for the cup when you are buying the glue, so why worry about the itemized bill for the cups when you are mostly paying for labor? KKMI has a price guarantee on their quoted work; so if you don't like the bill it better be for a reason other than "they stood around waiting for epoxy to kick". If you ask for an estimate BEFORE they start the work they won't charge you more than what they quote.

Again; if you go in a yard for a re-rig it REALLY should not take more than a month to 1.5 to get everything replaced. And that is being VERY generous. I have seen boats re-rigged and the mast back up in a week. It really is not that difficult. Why should ANYONE have to beg the scheduler to do your work? And do you think it is fair to wait 6 freaking months to get a re-rig? Remember there are other costs associated with owning a boat like slip fees, insurance, property taxes, registration, interest paid on loan, etc. THAT ARE PAID REGARDLESS OF IF THE BOAT IS USED. So for six months my friend paid these bills while waiting for people to get off their @ss and put the stick back up. Sorry; it really fries me that everyone who associates themself with BMC says it is no big deal because he did not pay lay days. He paid over 3k for the above expendeture of money with no use of the boat (not because he did not want to sail it; because THEY kept him from being able to launch and use it). It seems that there is a pattern here of BMC taking boats (in addition to owners) "hostage".

Oh BTW the mast thing on my friend's boat was the bottom of the iceberg; there were other problems with their work in addition; but let's not get into it because it would only detract from the bigger issue of 6 months of newly purchased boat ownership with no way to sail it; all the while paying the assocciated bills.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

KeelHaulin said:


> Sorry; it really fries me that everyone who associates themself with BMC says it is no big deal because he did not pay lay days.


Not everyone who posted in support of BMC said that.


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

It seems to me that much of the noise in this thread comes from a few who know somebody, or has a friend, or who knows somebody who has a friend who has been subject to really, really terrible treatment at BMC. I don't doubt for an instant that there have been mishaps...but no more horrific than any other yard as I stated back at the beginning of the thread..
In the interest of full disclosure, why aren't you stone throwers disclosing who YOU are...as I do. I prefer face to face discussion, don't you?

Howard Keiper
Berkeley


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## thebrushand (Apr 5, 2009)

KeelHaulin said:


> Why is it that people with ONE POST tend to bash KKMI for being overly expensive and give BMC glowing reviews when those of us who have been on this board a long while and talked to customers of both yards or have had direct experience with both are posting the EXACT OPPOSITE?


And I thought the boating world was all about opinions! I am new to this board, not associated with BMC, and I have a warm fuzzy feeling already - not - about having an opinion here  . I guess it is best just to read what other people think and be grateful for their wisdom


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## AKscooter (Jan 18, 2009)

You know...all these folks talking about sailing and I here in Alaska (o degress this am) decided to take my truck to get the studded snow tires off and put on the street tires. So much for spring.........Now of course everyone is trying to be fancy with their particular business coffee, doughnuts etc.) ...So I tell them switch tires. Ten minutes later they call me and say, do you want the studs off the rims or just put the street tires on???? What??? See, the street tires have their own set of rims as do the studs. But because I do not talk the same language as they did there was a miscommunication. This thread seems to be just that....farkin' talk to people and make sure you are on the same wavelength. Of course I would rather be in my boat. But no........I have to wait and just sit here drinking and live through you all.........


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## J36ZT (May 18, 2008)

*Two cents*

These have been my experiences:

KKMI--Final bill was well over double the estimate, I did have to wait for the "race boats," and damage was done to my boat while in their care. I expected work on my mast to be accomplished while serving several months overseas. Although they had my e-mail address (and I e-mailed them several times), they waited for me to return before telling me what was going on. While I was away, they moved my boat (not a big deal)...but chipped off the gel-coat on the back port corner in the process. In addition, my lock had been cut off of my main-hatch...but they replaced it (at my expense...nothing was taken, but nothing of value had been left on the boat either). So, when I returned, race season was about to start and I had to wait for the race boats to be finished before work started on my boat. As part of the repair, they welded pieces onto the mast step. Although a good idea, the welding job looked like crap and was covered over by some cheap body filler that ended up trapping moisture and started corroding the weld. I did get a cheap bottle of "KKMI" wine out of it though.

Vallejo Boat Works--Performed haul-out, bottom painting, and rudder bearing replacement. These guys are geared toward powerboats. They suggested I just take off the forestay because it was in the way of their travel-lift. Merely turning the boat around solved the problem. The bottom painting was adequate. The rudder bearing replacement work was top-notch. Final bill was more than I expected, but probably just more than reasonable considering what they had to go through with the rudder bearings. Others have told me they're overpriced and work hasn't been that good. I wouldn't take a sailboat there again. If I had a powerboat and they were convenient, it'd be OK.

Napa Valley Marina Boatyard--One of the few yards that'll let you do your own work. I did a complete mast repainting/refurbishment. Getting any advice out of these guys is impossible. They're not going to hold your hand or talk you through anything. However, they'll let you do as much of the work yourself as you want. You can also have them do some or all of the work if you wanted to go that route. They contract out rigging work to Svendsens, and you'll have to find your own rigger when it comes time to put the stick back up. I had my mast off for six months...waiting for SS to be mined and some kid to go through college so he could make the parts in some East-coast shop, then mail them to Sven so they could complete standing rigging. (Napa probably won't be happy with me telling you that if you take the rigging to Sven yourself you'll probably save some money.) Overall, I was/am very happy with Napa.

I can't speak about the other SF Bay area yards as I haven't had to experience them. What I have learned is to get an estimate and hold the yard to it. 10% over estimate is reasonable...double, triple, or quadruple is NOT! Stay after them and visit your boat often. Hold them to their timetable as well. I'd rather see an itemized list of all parts and labor rather than be given a final price off the top of their heads. Most important, be ready and even eager to dispute the bill.

I have NO affiliation with any boatyard and think most of them are crooks that'll steal you blind if given half a chance. Your best bet is not to believe everything you hear (good and bad) and carefully check the yard yourself.

Skipper, J/36 "Zero Tolerance"


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Fstbttms said:


> Maybe you should consider contributing more than three posts before you tell others here what to do.


Fastbottoms - please let me know how many posts I need to leave before you will let me comment on events for which I have first hand knowledge.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Is another Berkeley Marine insider is leaving posts...?*

THEBRUSHAND you need to check with FASTBOTTOMS - he doesn't want people to post about Berkeley Marine Center if they only have a view posts (see above).

He will, however, make an exception if you work at BM or are a contractor who renders service there...

BTW how do know that Cree's "hostage taking incident" was about an unpaid bill? Maybe he just went berserk...? I was there...were you? I don't think so...the only people there were BM employee's and members of the owners party...and of course the large number of police!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

KeelHaulin said:


> Why is it that people with ONE POST tend to bash KKMI for being overly expensive and give BMC glowing reviews when those of us who have been on this board a long while and talked to customers of both yards or have had direct experience with both are posting the EXACT OPPOSITE?
> 
> Oh BTW the mast thing on my friend's boat was the bottom of the iceberg; there were other problems with their work in addition; but let's not get into it because it would only detract from the bigger issue of 6 months of newly purchased boat ownership with no way to sail it; all the while paying the assocciated bills.


KEELHAULIN - I think you are on to something. Two groups are posting to this thread. Owners with good or bad experiences at San Francisco boat yards and employees or contractors at Berkeley Marine Center.

I have spoken with many SF boat owners and have not found one that did not have a poor to terrible experience at BM and a good (but expensive) experience at KKMI or Svensens...

The only reason to go to BM is that you are going to do all the work yourself and don't mind the filth and poorly maintained equipment...be careful they don't drop your boat after you complete your work

I suspect the following posters are affiliated with BM:

THEKEIP
THEBRUSHAND
FASTBOTTOMS


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

Fastbottoms has been on this board for a long time, and I think it is generally well known that he is a commercial diver. I always thought he did his work at many boatyards, not just one. His company logo is up in his name area.

However, in any thread about boatyards or boat products, the spirit if not the letter of the board rules suggests that posters should state an affiliation with the yard or product in question right away. Other posters and readers have a right to know so they can weigh what they are reading appropriately.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Carter33 said:


> THEBRUSHAND you need to check with FASTBOTTOMS - he doesn't want people to post about Berkeley Marine Center if they only have a view posts (see above).
> 
> He will, however, make an exception if you work at BM or are a contractor who renders service there...


Don't presume to know what I want or don't want posted, junior. You are the one trying to control the content of the thread, not me. I have no problem with people posting ANYTHING here, as long as it's not bullsh*t. I'll call anybody out on that without hesitation.

BTW, I have refrained from making any further comments in support of Cree or the BMC since recently having a conversation with the diver who located the lost keel discussed previously. He gave me some insight on behaviour that he has witnessed Cree display. Suffice to say that I no longer regard the hostage incident as implausible.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

arf145 said:


> Fastbottoms has been on this board for a long time, and I think it is generally well known that he is a commercial diver. I always thought he did his work at many boatyards, not just one. His company logo is up in his name area.
> 
> However, in any thread about boatyards or boat products, the spirit if not the letter of the board rules suggests that posters should state an affiliation with the yard or product in question right away. Other posters and readers have a right to know so they can weigh what they are reading appropriately.


Again, I am not affiliated with any boatyard, BMC or otherwise. Yes, I have been paid to do occasional dive work by several Bay Area yards over the years (BMC included), but do not work for any of them on a regular basis. In fact, it has been several years since I have done anything for the BMC. My only loyalty to Cree Partridge is that I know him to be a nice guy and we have a friendly relationship. Recent "incidents" not withstanding.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Fstbttms said:


> I remember when this happened. A friend of mine was the diver who located the lost keel. The truth of the matter is that "Lady Elizabeth" was a real POS. Just another of many old wooden junkpiles who's owner believes to be a valuable classic. BMC tied the boat up at their fuel dock (if memory serves, they had declined to haul it for fear of it breaking up in the slings. But I could be wrong about that) and while there, the keel simply fell off the boat. While the water depth at the fuel dock may not have been enough to keep her out of the mud at low tide, boats in SF Bay Area marinas often have to deal with silted-in slips. Putting the keel in the very soft mud at the Berkeley Marine Center would not jeopardize a well-found, seaworthy boat. This thing was ready to die and the owner wanted the BMC to pick up the tab for the funeral.


I read about this in Latitude 38 also. Although I have been a critic of BMC based on their overall attitude and service to a friend of mine; I must say that in this situation BMC did not cause the keel failure (IMHO). The failure of keel bolts due to sitting on shoaled in mud simply can't happen. If the forces on the keel due to resting on mud caused the bolts to fail; the bolts themselves are inadequate or corroded to a point where if any load while sailing were put on them the keel would have fallen off while under sail.

I'd say that instead of complaining that BMC ripped the keel off your boat (which they did not); you should be thankful that the keel failure happened in a marina and not while sailing.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I don’t care what others say – my heart goes out to Lady Elizabeth ….I too was badly treated at Berkeley Marine Center. The damage was not as bad as Lady Elizabeth’s….but I will bear the scars forever…they left diesel spatter on my deck for months, despite my owners pleas that it be washed off…it etched itself into my anodized aluminum. Many fitting can be replaced – at a cost of more than $10,000 – but my aluminum toe rail is structural and I will just have to learn to live with those scars…

When my owner finally couldn’t take it anymore and tried to have me moved, Cree tried to hold him hostage. The police had to be called! I don’t know about you, but I try to have sailing bring a bit of peaceful recreation into my owner’s hectic lives…being held hostage is not their definition of peaceful recreation. I am afraid they will quit sailing…

I agree with you…maybe these people once cared about boats, but now all they do is harm. The upkeep in that yard is half way to scrapyard anyway…why don’t they just go all the way? That way people will pay them to tear boats apart…

Again, by condolences to you, Lady Elizabeth, and the boats that sank at the dock. They never deserved such foul treatment.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Sorry to hear that the "hostage" was you and your Beneteau. I thought that was some other person; but I forgot that you had to move it over to KKMI.

That's gotta be good for business - hostages, cop cars, lights, sirens....


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

thekeip said:


> I don't understand the difficulty you seem to be having with my non-affiliation with any particular yard. I am not employed by BMC. I DO like working there however, and do so whenever I can....it's convenient for me. I like to think they benefit from my expertise as well.
> Maybe you could check with me every couple of days to see if I'm at a yard you approve of.
> Howard Keiper


You are obviously too bright not to "understand" the issue, which then brings your integrity into question for me. The forum rules say that you should disclose that you are in a Marine business (hence, (hopefully) a pro, not weekend warriors like most of us). It doesn't specifically require you to disclose an affiliation with any given yard. Though, given the topic, and your defense of BMC, I think full disclosure that you have worked at BMC would have been the right thing to do. After all, you choose to disclose that you had work preformed on your boat there as an endorsement. Your failure to at least comply with the minimum forum requirements, (until you were outed by another member) and your refusal to even admit that it was shady impugns you in my opinion. Sadly for BMC, your "non association" with them, lends credibility to the negative comments I've read in this thread. Play by the rules and you will have credibility and integrity. Don't and you won't. Simple at that!


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

l124c....whoever you are....

I'm simply not interested in your opinion.

Howard Keiper
Berkeley


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

WOOHOOOOO.....As the propeller turns......

Up until 2003 I used BMC several times, and my friends did too. We are all DIYs, and never experienced any of this. I used BMC before Cree even came along. I found Cree knowledgable, and friendly. Things in life change. Maybe this is one of them?

As far as Svend's. Padding the bill is not acceptable to me. I had to force the rigger to pull out the quote in front of me. I made him do it while I stood there too. To his embarrassment he was caught. If ever I move home Svend will never see another cent of mine.

BMC is not all sparkly clean, but the prices match that too. I am not defending BMC. As I typed things do change with time. I do find a simple grounding in soft mud ripped out 7 bolts difficult to believe. Where exactly was this grounding, and what speed was the boat doing? I cannot imagine at all any speed achieved approaching the haul out area......As the propeller turns will be continued......i2f


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

imagine2frolic said:


> I do find a simple grounding in soft mud ripped out 7 bolts difficult to believe. Where exactly was this grounding, and what speed was the boat doing? I cannot imagine at all any speed achieved approaching the haul out area...


Grounding occurred while the boat was tied up at the fuel dock.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

The fuel dock being at the end of the fairway. How fast could they have been going approaching it? My question being, were the bolts thin as thread, or what?........i2f


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Yes; or the hull was so rotted that the bolts pulled out. You simply can't tear a keel off in a soft grounding; even if you dragged the boat sideways across the mud. The leeway forces acting on a keel while under sail are in the thousands of pounds; in addition to the weight/torsion of the keel itself. The keel strength must be able to support the sailing loads with plenty of safety factor; so again it's just not possible that a soft grounding could cause a keel to "fall off".


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

imagine2frolic said:


> The fuel dock being at the end of the fairway. How fast could they have been going approaching it?


Jeezus, for the hundredth time, the boat was tied up at the fuel dock when she touched bottom and lost her keel. She was not under way.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

So now you want to destroy the Berkeley Marine Center? Clearly, your case against them isn't strong enough on it's own merits, so you feel compelled to enlist the help of anybody with an ax to grind to help you bring Cree down. You realize, of course, that if you were to be successful, you would be affecting the livlihoods of dozens of other people employed at other businesses located on the BMC property who are not directly involved with the BMC. Hell, you don't even need to win your dubious case, defending himself against it might be enough to ruin him.

I hope you are thrown out of court but not before it costs you every penny you have.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Do you have any idea how annoying it is that you post *as your boat* in the first person? At worst, that's a little insane, if you ask me. At best, it is sickeningly cloying.

If you are going to accuse someone of the things you claim Cree Partridge has done to you, have the courage not to hide behind your boat's imaginary personality. Then maybe you'd get a little more respect from me.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

maryambaker said:


> Let's all come out of hiding! BUT since you're accused me of hiding behind my boat, FastBottoms, you be the first to come out! Lead the way!


I'm not hiding. You want to know who I am, check my profile, Google "FastBottoms", go to my web site, call me on the phone, whatever. It's all there. I will not "out" any other diver or marine maintenance worker, they aren't involved in this. Further, I do not work for Cree (as I have stated numerous times in this thread.) Yes, I know him. Yes, I am friendly with him. Yes, I have been paid by him for jobs I have done for the BMC in the past. But I have no more connection to him or his yard than you have. We have both done business with the man.

You, on the other hand, have a creepy way of representing yourself in this forum and your plea to enlist others in your quest to financially ruin a local boatyard is despicable. You have contributed almost nothing to this forum and have used it only to further your attacks on a local marine business. Based on what I have seen of you here, I don't like you very much and I'm not going to pretend that I do.

Your turn.


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

What Fastbottoms said...

Howard Keiper (aka 'the electrical guy')
Berkeley


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Fstbttms said:


> Jeezus, for the hundredth time, the boat was tied up at the fuel dock when she touched bottom and lost her keel. She was not under way.


Lighten up, so I missed a sentence or 2 in the whole damned thread...:laugher  ...i2f


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

It looks like we are back to the perigee/nadir again, with contractors who work at BMC attacking an owner who has had their boat damaged by that now infamous yard.

I especially like the guy who cleans bottoms attacking her efforts to seek some legal redress by accusing her of trying to harm people’s livelihoods. I am reminded of the guy who kills his parents then pleads for mercy from judge by pointing out that he is now an orphan.

You know, if more reputable people end up someday running that yard, the contractors might end up better off too. Of course, the more reputable managers might want more reputable contractors.

People who DIY at BMC need to understand that the issue is not whether they let you do your thing – they do. It is whether they drop or damage your boat on the way in or out…


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Carter33 said:


> I especially like the guy who cleans bottoms attacking her efforts to seek some legal redress by accusing her of trying to harm people's livelihoods. I am reminded of the guy who kills his parents then pleads for mercy from judge by pointing out that he is now an orphan.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Okay - what's your explanation for this...*

We typed up a description of the incidents, events and damages that occurred to our boat at Berkeley Marina Center. It went to almost 10 pages&#8230;

Since we don't want to post the whole sorry tale, I thought I would spice up the discussion a bit by occasionally putting in one or two of the specific events. The Berkeley defenders can then take a crack at an explanation&#8230;

Okay, here we go&#8230;.

Before BMC stepped our mast, I called to remind them that the salon table had to be installed first, as our mast is keel stepped and goes through the table&#8230;. can you see where this is going?

Of course, they stepped the mast - damaging its new paint job in the process - but hadn't bolted down the table. These bolts cannot now be reached with the mast in place... so we are stuck with a loose table until the next time we pull the rig&#8230;

Well, can anyone come up with an excuse for this?

So, every time someone leaves a nasty remark about an owner whose boat was damaged at BMC, I will leave another description of what happened to us&#8230;.

Take your best shots&#8230;


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Hey L.E.-

So when was the last time the keel shoe was dropped and the attaching bolts inspected? If it was built in 1947; that would make those bolts over 60 years old!! I'd say that if the bolts were not RECENTLY replaced or at least inspected; the "damage" was not due to BMC; but it was failure due to bad fasteners.

The "rocks" you show in your picture are "rip-rap" that is built around the levee that encloses the marina. Boats are not "docked" on it; the dock is behind the picture you show. At best there may be some random rocks in the mud beneath the far end of that dock; but they could not cause a keel to be ripped off. Again; YOUR account of what could have happened is skewed and certainly incorrect. Please don't continue to tarnish this thread with an account that ONLY puts BMC on the "right" side. There are people here who have GENUINE problems with the work or non-work done by BMC and are posting those concerns/problems here in hope that others will take it seriously. Hopefully BMC will make corrections to their business practices as a result of it; but not if YOU keep posting this lame duck example and mucking up this thread with your "cause" (which is to get a service provider to repair something that needed fixing for free).

Sorry; but those pictures speak volumes about what you think a boat is "for" and what you know about boats and sailing vessels (even less). There's a lot I could say to you about this; but I think I'd rather just keep those comments to myself instead of adding fuel to the fire. I feel sorry for Mr. Hess god rest his soul...


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

So when in the last 60 years were the keel bolts replaced? I think that's an honest question that should be answered. Especially after all the accusations you are making.........i2f


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

maryambaker said:


> I have not used profanity and others have, about my boat. What is really tarnishing this thread is the downright nastiness that runs rampant here. You are mean. This nastiness really interferes with discourse but I don't think discourse is the reason some of you are here. You want to be mean. Was sailing always like this? I don't think so. You are very intolerant. I have a right to speak out; my boat has been seriously damaged by the boatyard.


You clearly don't have a clue what's going on in this thread or why some people (myself included) might take exception to your "performance" here, so I'll lay it out for you:

1.- When someone questions the veracity of your accusations about the BMC, they are not being "mean". You have provided absolutely *ZERO* evidence to back up your claims. No photos of the boat being docked in a dangerous spot, no eyewitness reports, nothing except your story. So excuse us if some of us are a bit skeptical.

2.- Your have used this forum for nothing except attacking the BMC. You have have posted nothing of value or interest anywhere else on SailNet. The only reason you are here is to bring attention to your claims against the BMC. This forum is a community and you have contributed very little to it. No law against that, just understand why some people feel you are using the community they help build for nothing but furthering your own agenda.

3.- Yes, you have "right" to speak out. Just as others have a right to dispute your claims. Just because you said a thing happened doesn't make it so. You don't have any special priveledges here and you have made some serious accusations. This ain't a ladies sewing circle, we are adults and will carry on a conversation as such. That means you better be able to defend your arguments and have a thick enough skin not to run home crying to mama if someone doesn't take what you have to say as gospel.

4.- Speaking for myself, your initial posts, posing as your boat's "personality" were very off-putting. That was a big strike one on you, IMHO, regardless of the truth of anything else you have claimed. Just sayin'.

I'm sorry your boat was damaged. The photos of her show her to have been a beauty (at one time, at least.) But I think you are kidding yourself if you expect every person reading this thread to buy into your story, based soley on your word.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Well if it was stuck in the mud; it was protected from the rocks because it could not move. So which is it? It was either stuck; or not. It was either pounded against the rocks or it was not. If it was tied to the dock it would be difficult for the keel shoe to be on the rip-rap; the picture shows the keel hauled up on the breakwater, not on the bottom of the marina (where it landed when it fell off).

Again; I ask the questions: HOW OLD WERE THOSE KEEL BOLTS? DO YOU REALIZE THAT WOOD HULLS WON'T LAST FOREVER? WHEN WAS THE HULL LAST SURVEYED AND WHAT WERE THE FINDINGS (prior to the "grounding")? Good luck with your lawsuit; I don't think you have one chance in 10 of winning.

I'm sorry; but your boat is not in the wonderful condition you perceive it to be in. It looks tired and many boats of this age are re-fastened, re-planked or completely rebuilt; depending on the amount of deterioration found when planks are pulled. Many people start tearing into a boat this old and decide to take a chainsaw to it rather than try and repair it after finding all of the hidden rot. If you wish to believe the boat is seaworthy (or marina-worthy) then that is your choice; but please don't hold BMC responsible for the keel if it could not withstand a soft grounding (meaning: NOT rammed onto a rocky shore while moving at hull speed). There is no visible evidence on the keel shoe of a hard impact (deformation or deep gouges); and even if dragged sideways it could not have ripped off due to wind forces or even if the boat was dragged sideways unless the bolts had failed due to corrosion.

I still can't believe I am on one hand a big critic of BMC for the "ACTUAL" situation my friend was in; yet defending them from the wrongful accusation of ripping a keel off in a silted-in marina.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Why was the boat moved to the fuel dock, and left for seven days? Why didn't the owner come for the boat if the work was finished? What did the diver have to say about the condition of the bolts?......i2f


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Maryamebaker, I’m sorry for the loss of your boat over at Berkeley. I am not that familiar with the boatyard there and have only been to BYC a couple of times for regattas and a cruise-out. Did I read your message correctly insomuch that the fuel dock only has 3 ½ of water at MLW? Is that for the entire dock or just the portion nearest the breakwater? The dock looks to be (from photos) only about 80 feet long and if the boatyard uses it for in-water storage, is there problems in getting access to the fuel pumps? Where is the pump out station? And are there any other areas in the Berkeley Marina we whose boats draw six feet should avoid?


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

GeorgeB said:


> And are there any other areas in the Berkeley Marina we whose boats draw six feet should avoid?


The enterance west of the breakwater is shoaled in. At times it is too shallow to enter/exit at low tide due to the shoaling.

Without a detailed report on the cause of the bolt failure we can't say what happened. Were all of the bolt remnants recovered? What was the condition of them; what were they made of; how old were they? Was any testing done to determine if they had failed from fatigue or crevice corrosion?

It's possible that the 3-1/2' depth actually prevented the boat from sinking at the dock; and that the keel shoe was already dangerously close to falling away. Following the loss of the shoe; what has been done to shore up the hull? It seems to me that leaving the shoe sitting on the breakwater is a poor way to "store" that hunk of recyclable metal until you need to re-fasten it to the hull. At this point anyone who wishes to pick it up and send it over to the scrap yard has every right to do so (salvage rights).


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Why was the boat left at the fuel dock for so long?.......i2f


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

maryambaker said:


> During this seven-day grounding period she was... pounded against the dock by the June wind and slammed by the surge (which has torn cleats out of customer's boats).


These are exaggerations. Of course it is windy in Berkeley in June, but the wind is out of the west and would have been dead on the nose while you were tied up at the fuel dock. Your boat was not "pounded against the dock" any more than any of the other boats that have spent long periods tied up there. Further, there is no particular surge at the entrance to Berkeley Marina. The breakwaters there do an excellent job of keeping the entrance quite calm.

Many boats worth much more than yours have been tied up at the fuel dock for extended periods and have not suffered any of the problems you are citing (grounding not withstanding). You do yourself no favors here by exaggerating the facts when there are knowledgeable locals who can easily dispute them.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

When you say (I), does that mean you, or the boat, and why was the boat left there so long if you were knowledgable about the shallow?.......i2f


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

The tide is 6-7ft there, and in 2 weeks you never found time to remove your vessel? Nearly sounds like abandonment to me......i2f


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Well, you have shown 2 personalities, and still no answer as to why the boat was left for so long? Did Cree leave it there, and you were unaware of where it was, or did you leave it there after it was placed there in water deep enough to allow it to arrive there?......i2f


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

While not knowing what actually transpired, the LE may have been left there with the understanding that the boat was being tied up in a location suitable for a vessel of her draft. If the owner of the boat was not familiar with the marina's layout and the depth available there, they may have had no reason to worry about moving it, under the expectation that the marina would keep the boat in a slip appropriate to its draft.

If the marina/boatyard moved the LE and left her in a spot that actually does not have the depth suitable to a 6.5' draft vessel....then the boatyard/marina is probably liable for the damage done to her, regardless of how long she was left there. _*There is a reasonable expectation that a marina/boatyard will take reasonable care of a vessel that has been left in its care, and that reasonable care probably includes putting it in a spot where it won't be forced aground or allowed to pound against the bottom.*_



imagine2frolic said:


> Well, you have shown 2 personalities, and still no answer as to why the boat was left for so long? Did Cree leave it there, and you were unaware of where it was, or did you leave it there after it was placed there in water deep enough to allow it to arrive there?......i2f


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

That's why I am asking the questions. I have used BMC, and Cree several times. I used the yard before Cree bought it. Although people change, and I haven't been to BMC since 03. Something here just doesn't strike me as Cree. Mary was at one time her boat, and now herself. I find this very odd. She has made several replies, but not answered my question.

If Cree, and the yard are what she claims then she should stop playing children's games, and come right out a little more business like. I am all for bad people, and bad businesses being acknowledged for what they are, but good ones too.

It just seems to me that maybe there is more than meets the eye. Maybe she carries partial blame, or Cree all of it. When you start a campaign to bring down a business. You should be very forthcoming I would think.......i2f


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I agree completely... 


imagine2frolic said:


> When you start a campaign to bring down a business. You should be very forthcoming I would think.......i2f


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

To all concerned...

I'd be very, Very careful about taking sides on this issue. Nobody, but nobody has gotten the facts straight yet.

Howard Keiper
Berkeley


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd really like to hear from Cree or one of his representatives, and see what they say about this.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

maryambaker said:


> It was windy. My fenders were flattened. On June 2, 2007 I had to go to West Marine (I save receipts) and spend $200 on fenders and dock lines..


Because you spent a week at the Berkeley Marina fuel dock? Bullsh*t. Either that or your fenders and dock lines sucked to begin with.

Lady, I've spent too many years doing business in the Berkeley Marina to buy any more of your tall tales. I'm sure the truth actually lies in the middle somewhere, but there are too many inconsistencies and exaggerations in your story. You are probably a very nice woman who is distraught over the damage to her boat. But the more you say, the less I believe.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

thekeip said:


> l124c....whoever you are....
> 
> I'm simply not interested in your opinion.
> 
> ...


Oh, excuse me. When you posted " I don't understand the difficulty you seem to be having with my non-affiliation with any particular yard.", I thought I would offer (for the third time!) the clarification you were apparently seeking. My mistake! Silly me!


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Okay so you were with your boat for some time, and never noticed it was on the bottom in this whole time. Why didn't you get a slip? There are probably several hundred within a 100yrds? Possibly even an empty one?

I would think Cree cares not to enter into this. Both from a personal, and legal reason. I am sorry, but the inconsistancies here are now public, and can be brought into a courtroom I do believe. If I was your lawyer I would advise you to stay away from the keyboard. You seem to be inflicting an awful lot of damage to yourself. Some of which may prove to be slanderous.

I am not taking a side, but I have worked with Cree several times, and found him to be very giving of his knowledge. This is why I have these questions. In todays society no one wants to take responsibility for their own actions, or even lack of action. It is always someone else's fault.

I feel bad for your situation no matter whose to blame, or even if the blame is somewhere in the middle. After all we here are all lovers of boats. There is no one here mean spirited, but you must remember something. You came here, and brought this out to the public seeking to destroy a business. You have brought the doubt, and questions upon yourself. No one hunted you down, and tortured you to bring forth what you have brought to this thread. You will be the one to carry the burden of truth, and must be willing to accept the enquiring minds that ask questions of your tale of misery.

I do have a wonderful sense of humor, but I see nothing funny in your 2 personalities. You need to treat this as business, and quit with the childish games of emotions. You are an adult aren't you? Then you should treat this situation as an adult. BEST WISHES in sorting out your horrible mess.......i2f


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One point I'd like to make... regardless of how knowledgeable or competent Cree may be, not all of is employees are necessarily so, and regardless of who worked on the boat or moved it, if it was a BMC employee, the over all responsibility for the actions of his employees falls on Cree's shoulders.

When I had my boat commissioned three years ago, I had some electrical work done by Peter Kennedy Yacht Services, of Edgewater, MD. The quality of the work was absymal, and I am pretty sure that Peter Kennedy did not do any of it himself, as I was there observing for a good portion of the time. However, it was Peter Kennedy that assured me that the work would be done on a timely fashion and done properly-neither of which was true. His company was over four weeks late on finishing the work and much of the work has had to be re-done as I stated on my *blog*.

The same is true of any work that was done by BMC... regardless of who did the actual work, Cree is responsible for it.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Just wanted to add the following:

If you are tied to a *fuel dock* you can't expect to be located in a place where boats who *need fuel* would be blocked from getting to the pump. So I suspect that the LE was moved further and further down the dock while boats who *needed access* came to use the fuel pump. I suspect that BMC placed your boat at the fuel dock because they were not accepting responsibility for your boat by placing it at the boatyard docks; and the boat was not "in their possession" since you did not provide a deposit that they had requested (despite any verbal agreement).

I would suspect another culprit in terms of the damage to the keel; since you mention that the boat was towed from HMB up to SF Bay in May you should also be aware that this time of year is whale migration season and that there is a huge probability that the boat ran over a whale and suffered damage to the keel. Last June we sailed from SF down to HMB and on the way back the whales were breaching all over the place. At one point I had the engine at full throttle (forget sailing) to avoid one coming up beneath my boat.

Again; I can't imagine enough lateral force or forces due to a boat resting on a shoal to cause keel damage. Many boats do this while up in delta sloughs while tied to the shore bow-in; or sailboats careening to do bottom work where there is no place to haul out. It really should not cause a failure of the keel fasteners unless there are severely corroded or fatigued bolts. I say this because the keel is pretty much the spine of a boat like yours; and if anything would have failed by sitting on a shoal it would have been a seam opening on the side of the boat due to the keel carrying the weight of the boat. The keel shoe is an integral part of the keel and it would have only stiffened the keel and protected it from any slight form of hard grounding if there was a rock beneath the bottom of the boat. How do you know it was sitting on the bottom? Was it sitting out of the water at low tide; and if so, how much and do you have pictures?

In this particular case I just can't find BMC to blame; as opposed to what happened to my friend waiting 6 months for rigging work and lots done wrong on other jobs, or the damages to the OP's Beneteau with subsequent "hostage situation".

If you care about the historic boat you own; and "never want to see a boat again." as you said in your pevious post; you should consider donating it to either the Maritime Museum in San Francisco; or to the Spaulding Wooden Boat Center in Sausalito ( Spaulding Wooden Boat Center: HOME PORT ).Be sure and tell them where they can find the keel (sitting on the Berkeley Marina Breakwater); so it can be retrieved and re-attached. Instead of being a floating planter box it would be restored, preserved, and sailed; and that's what I think Mr. Hess would have liked to see...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

KH's point about whether the BMC actually had responsibility for the boat, considering that they were not contracted to do work on the boat, even though that was primarily due to their breach of a verbal agreement for a contract according to Maryambaker, is a good one. 

However, whether the BMC was responsible for the boat or not is probably a point for the courts to decide. If the BMC is found to be responsible for the boat, based on the tentative contract that Maryambaker had with them, then, IMHO, they'd be responsible for the damage to the boat. If the BMC is found not to be responsible for the boat, then they're not responsible for the damage to the boat either.

In either case, the owner had a choice to move the Lady Elizabeth back to where she was taken from originally. Granted, this would have been an expensive option, but it was one that the owner had. It could probably be argued that if the Lady Elizabeth was towed back to her home port on a timely basis, the damage would not have occurred.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> It could probably be argued that if the Lady Elizabeth was towed back to her home port on a timely basis, the damage would not have occurred.


Or to a transient slip at Berkeley Marina; or any other nearby marina in SF Bay for which there are many with available berths...


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Emery Cove is less than a mile away with no need at all to go around the old Berkeley pier. It could've easily been towed with a hip tow through the gap, or around the pier at the least. In June the bay is flat up until 11am. Yes it will blow 25-30 knots daily, but mornings are calm......i2f


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Carter33 said:


> KEELHAULIN - I think you are on to something. Two groups are posting to this thread. Owners with good or bad experiences at San Francisco boat yards and employees or contractors at Berkeley Marine Center.
> 
> I have spoken with many SF boat owners and have not found one that did not have a poor to terrible experience at BM and a good (but expensive) experience at KKMI or Svensens...
> 
> ...


Carter33,

You protest too much.

Here at Sailnet, we have a strict policy against individual users having multiple sign-ons/accounts. At this point we have good reason to believe that you have been posting to this thread with several aliases. That doesn't do much good for your cause.

Now would be a good time to come clean and set the record straight. Otherwise this thread and the complaints against BMC will appear farcical when three or four of the chief complainants are banned from Sailnet.


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## thebrushand (Apr 5, 2009)

Sorry to be a kill joy but I can assure the multifaceted carter33 that i am not an affiliate of BMC. I happen to be a master painter, and I have done work at BMC, but only on my own boat as a fee-paying private individual. Apologies to the detractors of cree and co, but my opinions for and against BMC and KKMI are based on personal experience as a punter, not a contractor.


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## ysabelsdad (Mar 17, 2007)

I have had quite a bit of work done on my boat at Berkeley Marine and have been totally happy. Cree Partridge is a god send. Every time I need to figure out how to do something, I go ask Cree and he seems happy to spend the time it takes to answer any question I have. I can't imagine being able to do that at a larger yard.

Chris King
Alden 44 Puffin


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

JohnRPollard said:


> Carter33,
> 
> You protest too much.
> 
> ...


I am coming forward and saying that *I have no affiliation with the person posting under the name "Carter33".* I only have *one* username/account here on Sailnet and if you have "associated" my name with other username/aliases; please do not do so because I am *not* posting under multiple usernames.

While I have been critical of BMC for their handling of my friend's boat (my primary reason for posting to this thread to begin with); I also have defended them against what I think is a bit of a smear campaign for damages that they -may- or (more probably) may not have caused.

I have spoken truthfully as a singular voice, and public opinion can decide if they want to put their valuable watercraft in the hands of the particular yard in question. I think the problems with BMC center around the management and scheduling of work; with poor customer service and workmanship issues. I don't think they are "bad people" I think they just don't know any better and for this reason the people who tend to have good experiences are those who DIY all of thier yard work. As a DIY'er myself I would probably find it to be a good yard for me; but after the horror story of my friend's boat I just won't put myself into that situation. Hopefully if anything comes of this public scrutiny will be changes that improve their customer service and no long term loss of business. I don't hold any ill will towards BMC, or it's employees.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

KeelHaulin said:


> I am coming forward and saying that *I have no affiliation with the person posting under the name "Carter33".* I only have *one* username/account here on Sailnet and if you have "associated" my name with other username/aliases; please do not do so because I am *not* posting under multiple usernames....


KH,

Definitely Not!! You are a well respected member here at Sailnet, and we value your opinions. The way I read it, you provided a useful and balanced account of the problems your friend encountered at BMC.

I was referring to some other new member"s" that popped up here to heap it on with an agenda. I think anyone who takes the time to go back and read this thread will quickly grasp who "they" are. Hint: It's not the folks being accused of having an affiliation with BMC.

If anyone is wondering why we didn't check this out sooner, the answer is simply that we were unaware that there was a controversy brewing in this thread. The title is fairly innocuous, so didn't attract our attention. And nobody reported any posts made to the thread. It wasn't until our curiosity got the better of us (100+ posts to a thread asking for a marina recommendation!?? -- Okay, so we're a little slow on the uptake...  ) that we began looking into this.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Now they are really ganging up on us...*

 Boy, leave this thread for a few days and it really takes off&#8230;!

As I posted previously, every time a BMC employee or contractor attacks an aggrieved boat owner, we will post another story of a BMC misadventure with our boat (we have dozens&#8230 so here goes&#8230;

During the four months our boat was marooned at BMC, we noticed that there were new scratches on the varnish in our fore cabin. Asked BMC for a quote to have then touched up. They estimated a few hours, but by then things had begun track in a bad direction, so I told them I would handle them myself&#8230;.

Came back a few days later to find that BMC had made an attempt to varnish the WHOLE fore cabin. They had done about half of it and stopped in the middle of one wall&#8230;

But here is the kicker&#8230;.all of our boat's interior varnish is hand rubbed semi-gloss finish. Berkeley applied glossy finish to random portion of undamaged area. So now the whole cabin will need to be re-done.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Time to wind-down this thread?*



JohnRPollard said:


> I was referring to some other new member"s" that popped up here to heap it on with an agenda. I think anyone who takes the time to go back and read this thread will quickly grasp who "they" are. Hint: It's not the folks being accused of having an affiliation with BMC.


Well - it looks like our BMC stories have finally quieted down the BMC fellow-travelers&#8230;so now, maybe this thread can wind down.

I was the one who started this thread, and I asked Carter33 to log on since he was a witness to the "hostage taking incident" at BMC&#8230;didn't realize this would activate the SAILNET forum police.

Even though this had been a painful exercise, I think it may end up being a force for good. Although an unfortunate pattern developed - owners wronged by BMC would leave their story and then be personally attacked by BMC associates - there may be others who have been put on alert.

I for one will never again turn our boat over to anyone without first doing a thorough internet background check.

All the best.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

GEE, and I was waiting for the dozens of disgruntled stories.......i2f


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

imagine2frolic said:


> GEE, and I was waiting for the dozens of disgruntled stories.......i2f


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

nparadis5476 said:


> Well - it looks like our BMC stories have finally quieted down the BMC fellow-travelers&#8230;so now, maybe this thread can wind down.
> 
> I was the one who started this thread, and I asked Carter33 to log on since he was a witness to the "hostage taking incident" at BMC&#8230;didn't realize this would activate the SAILNET forum police.
> 
> ...


Folks,

We gave him ample chance to come clean.

I make no judgement about the validity of the complaints against BMC -- it certainly sounds like there have been some problems with service there. But Sailnet has a strict rule about using multiple sign-on identities/accounts. Future readers of this thread should realize that "Nparadis" and "pearsoncommander" were the same individual, and in all likelihood "carter33" was too. That might affect how you judge the extent of those problems.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

John-

I hate to say this; because being critical of a moderator might also get me banned. I don't think there was any deceptiveness by "nparadis5476" AKA "pearsoncommander"; it seems to me that he was posting via the two usernames but he was not trying to come off as two different people. When he contacted me via PM following discussion about moving a boat from Richmond to Redwood City he stated the following:



nparadis5476 said:


> (02/14/2009) This is our old Sailnet identity (new one won't let us send messages yet)&#8230;the boat is at KKMI and we hope to move her this week. The weather doesn't look good though.
> 
> BTW we wish we had seen your warning about Berkeley Marine Center. We had a full blown nightmare there.


I'm only re-posting the PM because he did state that he had chosen a new username to post under; but he was letting me know he was the same person so it was not in effort to deceive anyone; because if he were doing so he would NEVER have told me or anyone else that he was posting as if he were two different people. The content of this PM is just the beginning of his later public complaint about BMC so it's relevance as being "private" is IMHO nolonger privileged information (just so we can agree that I am not violating any privacy by-laws for re-posting it).

I think it's a case of failure to read the rules about having multiple usernames and forgetting that your "name" here is more than just a placeholder on the forum posts; it is your online "identity". Again I don't see any deceptiveness; it is not like he has posted in conversation to himself or tag-teamed another member in opposition. If he is saying that "Carter33" was a friend using his computer to make a post on his behalf; I can also believe that statement; or at least give the benefit of the doubt because he seems like a fairly honest person to begin with (in both public and private conversation).

At first he did not want to post the details of his situation with BMC to the forum; or discuss details via PM. I think that probably was because when you have been wronged in such a way you really don't want to be forthcoming about it to others for fear of retalliation. Now he's been banned for suspected deciet; and I think that's unfair to someone who had the balls to stand up and say "I had the misfortune of taking my boat to a poorly run yard; and I wish I had checked back and read post #7 on this Sailnet thread prior to taking my boat there."

Personally I think he should have the newer of the two usernames restored; but that's JMHO.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

KeelHaulin said:


> John-
> 
> I hate to say this; because being critical of a moderator might also get me banned. I don't think there was any deceptiveness by "nparadis5476" AKA "pearsoncommander"; it seems to me that he was posting via the two usernames but he was not trying to come off as two different people. When he contacted me via PM following discussion about moving a boat from Richmond to Redwood City he stated the following:
> 
> ...


KH,

Thanks for your comments.

We would have very much liked to believe the the multiple accounts was nothing more than an innocent mistake as you suggest. That is why we gave ample opportunity for the individual to be up front and disclose to the membership. Unfortunately, that's not what happened here.

Also, if you go back and re-read this thread, you'll see that multiple accounts were being used nearly simultaneously. So it wasn't simply a case of the individual starting a new account and leaving the old one behind as apparently was suggested to you via p.m.

It is one thing to come here and warn fellow sailors about bad experiences or potentially unscrupulous business practices. We all benefit provided it is done in an even handed way without an "agenda". But doing so with multiple identities not only seriously undercuts credibility, it violates our forum rules which are clearly stated in the Sailnet terms of use that all members agree to at sign-up.

That said, we will temporarily remove the ban on nparadis so that he/she can contact moderators (me, tdw, CruisingDad, Jeff H) via Private Message. If there's additional info we should consider, we're happy to hear it. I think that's more than reasonable under the circumstances.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

JohnRPollard said:


> Also, if you go back and re-read this thread, you'll see that multiple accounts were being used nearly simultaneously. So it wasn't simply a case of the individual starting a new account and leaving the old one behind as apparently was suggested to you via p.m.


I could not find this evidence; I saw one day where he was posting under "pearsoncommander" and then everything else was "nparadis5476". To me it looks like he 'forgot' that he was OP as "nparadis5476" and posted multiple replies using the wrong username.



> It is one thing to come here and warn fellow sailors about bad experiences or potentially unscrupulous business practices. We all benefit provided it is done in an even handed way without an "agenda".


I don't see an "agenda" either; I think he was reluctant to go public with his problems and then when he finally did it sort of snowballed. While his decision to post discreet stories of wrongdoing could be considered an "agenda"; I also think that he could have posted everything that went wrong in one shot and then posted replies to various comments to that singular post (makes little difference if the events actually happened). If you recall, the OP of this thread "nparadis5476" was asking for a yard recommendation prior to moving his boat to SF Bay. It was not strictly about the practices of BMC; it evolved into that after his troubles and my prior post telling him to "watch out" for them. He came here looking for advice on where to ship/recommission his boat; not to complain from the outset about a particular yard.

If you want to look for someone here with an "agenda" you might consider "maryambaker" as someone who joined sailnet with a distinct goal (to destroy the reputation of BMC); in order to recoup a loss that has dubious association with any "work" the yard did.

JMHO...


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

> Consumers have a right to post truthful reviews on consumer websites like Yelp without being accused of trying to "destroy" a business.


That is provided that the account/review is truthful and accurate. While I see some issues that BMC could have done better with you and your boat; like ASK if it was a wood hull and it's age/construction, and if in doubt require an upfront deposit. But when a facility refuses to haul you and leaves you stranded; the only thing you can do as an owner is *secure and protect YOUR property from any potential damage*. Because it is sitting in shallow marina unfortunately is not their responsibilty; they moved the boat to the fuel dock so it was nolonger on their property or their responsibility.



> repeated groundings and inadequate repairs caused the loss of CYNTHIA WOODS' keel in the Gulf of Mexico


OK the keel failure of the Cynthia Woods is *COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS COMPARING THAT SITUATION TO YOURS.* Using this example to compare damage like "it's the same reason" shows how little you know about boats and damages that can cause a failure. The keel of the Cynthia Woods was damaged by more than one hard grounding while moving at hull speeds in the 6-7kt range; and the *FIBERGLASS LAMINATE* was inadequately repaired following those groundings. This *already weakened FIBERGLASS structure* was further weakened by excessive flexing *due to the prior damage* while sitting in a shallow slip for *several months* of twice daily grounding of the keel on a *very minimal section of hull* (due to the very small racing foil section of the keel strut). *THE KEEL BOLTS DID NOT SHEAR ON THE CYNTHIA WOODS, AND NONE OF THIS SCENARIO APPLIES TO YOUR BOAT ASIDE FROM THE FACT THAT YOU (THE OWNER) FAILED TO MOVE YOUR BOAT AWAY FROM SHALLOW WATER; AND NOW YOU WON'T TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN INACTION.*

Again; the soft grounding due to tides in a silted-in marina could not have caused a keel bolt shearing failure. The conditions of imminent failure were already there. With your boat the keel bolts were most likely too old and corroded to keep the shoe attached with any form of applied stress; and resting on a shoal was the "last straw". Keels don't just fall away like that; it would take a catastrophic impact (like hitting a reef at hull speed) to cause the failure you boat had if the hull and keel bolts were structurally sound. Boats nose in to shores all the time for mooring and don't lose their keel shoe due to the casual grounding.

In regards to the POS junkpile comment; well I'll let readers decide that one. I think every boat comes to a point where the costs to keep her afloat exceed the value of the hull and when boats (especially wooden) get to that point the nostalgic owners start looking at them with a jayded eye and "think" thier boat is in much better condition than it actually is. And when someone comes along and calls their boat a POS it becomes a very sore point because they then have to take stock of what they actually have and begin to realize that the boat they own is not the flawless dreamboat that they percieve it to be.

I'm sure your boat is somewhere between POS and in excellent shape; but since you can't say or know when the keel (or hull) was re-fastened (or checked for bad fasteners) it is a toss up on how well it has stood the test of time (60 years of service). Boats don't last forever; especially boats made of wood. We all know how much it costs to maintain a wood hull; it's no secret that to keep one in a seaworthy state is extremely expensive, and that many wood hull boats that are still above water are in less than seaworthy condition with their owners beleiving otherwise.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Where's the dozens of disgruntled stories? This is as good as multi vs mono......i2f


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

KeelHaulin said:


> John-
> 
> I hate to say this; because being critical of a moderator might also get me banned. I don't think there was any deceptiveness by "nparadis5476" AKA "pearsoncommander"; it seems to me that he was posting via the two usernames but he was not trying to come off as two different people. When he contacted me via PM following discussion about moving a boat from Richmond to Redwood City he stated the following:
> 
> ...


KH,

I have just read this entire thread from beginning to end.

First of all, we respect your membership here. Being critical of moderators is not an issue. I do not mind an open discussion of our practices. As you know, we try to be fair (too fair sometimes), but we are not perfect. You can always discuss your concerns with us.

Second of all, I am sorry, but I have to raise the brown flag. Carter33, Perarson Commander, and nparadis5476 all have the same IP address. Either they are the same person, they are all sitting across each other's shoulders and typing responses to each other on this thread, or that is one crowded boat. The reader(s) should know that. Now maybe they had a hidden agenda, maybe they did not, but after reviewing this thread I can honestly say that I thought they were different people until John pointed it out. It will also make it look to most other readers that they are different people. Maybe they are... but they could have been more forthright.

Regarding Maryambaker, if you are really interested in taking this matter to court, I suggest you contact your attorney and tell him what you are writing on this board which is reproduced via Yahoo and other search engines AROUND THE WORLD. He may not be happy with your discussion which may or may not be used against you. That is your call but needless to say, but you have had fair warning.

Regarding thekeip and all other disclosures: We require full disclosure on this board for anyone and everyone involved in the marine industry. I am not suggesting that you would intentionally misslead someone, but there are (and have been) people that would and it has been a problem here. I agree with the poster that knowing your affiliation might have pursuaded me to take your opening opinions differently. Please post your profession/affiliations in your signature. As far as Fastbottoms is concerned, I think it is pretty obvious he does bottoms and his affiliation is well known here.

Regarding other comments, the readers should know that there is some behind the scenes stuff going on here. For example, FreetheBMC3 (who has been banned) is using a proxy server to hide his/her identity. The moderators here have NO hidden agenda and none of us live anywhere close to CA. We are a neutral entity in this discussion, but we will keep it civil.

- CD


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

And just to be clear, I stand behind John 100% in that he did the right thing and made the right decision. 

- CD


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Cruisingdad said:


> And just to be clear, I stand behind John 100% in that he did the right thing and made the right decision.
> 
> - CD


ME TOO....CD .......i2f


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Ditto...well done JRP and CD. 

...and I agree entirely with KH and Fast about the shoe falling off in a soft grounding. 
Ridiculous. Go to court if you can prove it...then shove the decision in our faces if it goes your way. Till then it is BS.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

camaraderie said:


> Ditto...well done JRP and CD.
> 
> ...and I agree entirely with KH and Fast about the shoe falling off in a soft grounding.
> Ridiculous. Go to court if you can prove it...then shove the decision in our faces if it goes your way. Till then it is BS.


Good call Cam,

I think that pretty much covers it. All this complaining, and no lawyer to take action? Way back I mentioned to maryambaker that a lawyer would advise her to stop spouting. As posted before she took no action to move the boat in over a week. Hundreds of slips right there within a stone's throw. Another 500 less than a mile away. With the water as flat as a mill pond before 10am during the summer months, and I never did get to see dozens of complaining customers!

You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. That's just the way it is in business. I lean over backwards to please my customers, but once in a while I have to throw an ingoramus out , because there just isn't any reasoning going on at all in their skulls........i2f


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## thekeip (Aug 8, 2007)

I posted once before on this issue, not to take sides. This Lady Elizabeth thing is now in court it's 4th iteration, having been thrown out three times before. Stay tuned.
Howard Keiper (my real name)
Berkeley (where I work much of the time)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I really like BMC, I have hauled out there a couple of times, after having hauled out 3 times at another yard, I found it to be a completely different experience, one, which I hope to replicate. I found all of the employees and subcontractors, who currently work there, to be knowledgeable and caring. Compared to my previous experiences of having to be constantly on guard and critical, that was not the case at BMC. My times out at BMC gave me an opportunity to watch the interaction between boat owners and employees. I found that when conflict arouse with a very small minority of owners, specifically the kind who are sure the world revolves around them, who expect you to drop everything to accommodate their most recent whim, that management at BMC went way over board to meet their expectations. The world is full of all kinds of people, and like boat owners; there are good ones and bad ones. As far as boat yards, there are good ones and bad ones as well. However, the funny thing I observed is; in the same yard it is good to some and seems bad to others. Taking that a step further, it became evident that negative people tend to take that negativity with them in every aspect of their lives. As a natural consequence of that, it reflects in their environment. Therefore, I would think that being the case, some of the folks I read in this forum, really need to work on their inner self-being as it is clearly to blame for their misfortune. When you point your finger at someone, there are three fingers pointing back at you.

A boat yard as I see it, is a lot like an emergency room at a hospital. You could say that the hospital expects so see a profit and that it is in the business of making money. That every little paint stir, just like every little cotton ball, should be marked up to the extent of making all the losing aspects of the business profitable. Heaven forbid you get a patient with no insurance. A detached retina, no insurance, out the door with you. All for the bottom-line. At least doctors have a Hippocratic oath to serve. Not boat yards. Well BMC has not proven to fit that greedy self serving corporate model. They go out of their way for most boat owners. My other experience was not like BMC. I watched guys clock on to three boats at a time, never clocking off the one they were not working on. I saw folks blue in the face trying to get management to explain how their bill was double what it appeared to be. Moreover, that they had tracked the time themselves and it was 1/3 of what they were being billed. And I saw management explain that your lay days costs are going to increase now that the job is done, and they wouldn’t put the boat in the water until payment in full had been made. Even though you caught them cheating. Period. One reason I like BMC and will go back is because they are not like brand X. 

Like I mentioned before, there are bad boat owners as well. Imagine the guy with all the money, stealing his boat from one haul out facility to another, failing to pay the transport folks, claiming damages caused by others on whatever new boat yard he lands in. I mean listening to that guy whine about being held captive; I wonder what really happened. It couldn’t be that he ordered all kinds of work to be done, then stole his boat once it was in the water, skipping out on the bill, refusing to pay. If that is his nature, I would imagine that there were at least two other yards and at least one transporter, whom he also failed to pay. Good thing people like that are not in charge of whether we live or die, or are they? Because those of us with no health insurance would be sure to die or at least go blind. And I would also assume that it is that same duplicit nature, that of a schizoid, which would have him posting as a boat, or several different posters. And then the story about how they were standing around drinking beer in brown paper bags. It was a dark and rainy night. Brown paper bags in the rain? Weird. I like BMC. They are progressive, evolving, caring and more environmentally involved than any other boat yard I have seen.

Bruce – a satisfied customer.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

thekeip said:


> This Lady Elizabeth thing is now in court it's 4th iteration, having been thrown out three times before.


Really? Interesting that maryambaker chose not to mention this. Of course, since she doesn't have an agenda here, why would she?


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

plumber1 said:


> Therefore, I would think that being the case, some of the folks I read in this forum, really need to work on their inner self-being as it is clearly to blame for their misfortune. When you point your finger at someone, there are three fingers pointing back at you.


So you think it comes down to a matter of Karma or ability to "negotiate" a hostage release (hostage being the owner's boat)? Let me say that the situation I described and have complained about here *was not my boat.* The owner who I described had trouble with BMC not doing him a good service by not doing work on his boat in a timely manner was extremely patient and friendly; and for that he got screwed by being continuously pushed to the bottom of the yard's to-do list. In addition the work they did was less than adequate; there is a long, long list of things they did incorrectly and unfortunately the owner did not question the work because he *expected* that it would be done right to begin with. He is still finding problems with their work; most recently a bad job done on installing a dripless shaft seal and new driveshaft coupling.



> Like I mentioned before, there are bad boat owners as well. Imagine the guy with all the money, stealing his boat from one haul out facility to another, failing to pay the transport folks, claiming damages caused by others on whatever new boat yard he lands in. I mean listening to that guy whine about being held captive; I wonder what really happened. It couldn't be that he ordered all kinds of work to be done, then stole his boat once it was in the water, skipping out on the bill, refusing to pay. If that is his nature, I would imagine that there were at least two other yards and at least one transporter, whom he also failed to pay.


Where did you get this information; or is it purely speculative? If you know this then what is your affiliation with BMC; and if you don't then why did you post something that you know absolutely nothing about??


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Keelhaulin said: "So you think it comes down to a matter of Karma&#8230;"*

Keelhaulin said: "So you think it comes down to a matter of Karma&#8230;" I truly believe that Karma is action, good or bad, which we accumulate as fortune or misfortune, deep down in our lives. It seems to need an outside stimulus to manifest, I believe there has to be some sort of order to things, not just random chaos. So yes, I do believe it comes down to karma, or at least karma plays a huge role, certainly influences the tendency or our nature. That being the case, raising your life condition a little, your environment would have to change in accord. Try it. I truly empathize with your friend's misfortune, and your interpretation of it. That's why I left the other yard for BMC. I just couldn't raise my life condition enough to stay. Then again, maybe my karma changed, because I went from such a horrible experience at Yard X, to a great one at BMC. Who knows&#8230;. It seems to be very subjective.
Keelhaulin asks: "what is your affiliation with BMC?" I fish out of Berkeley, I haul out of BMC, I have a lot of friends who haul out at BMC, I am a do it yourselfer, and ask the yard do what I am not capable of doing. And I am a commercial fisherman. And I have folks I consider to be friends who work at BMC. I like BMC, I like the people there. I might even like you.

Keelhauling asks: "Where did you get this information;" I was referring to the post mentioned from yelp about the "hostage situation" and all of the information in this thread, and then searching the internet and carter33's post and I came to the conclusion, that the guy you so avidly defend, might have a predisposition to ripping people off instead of entering into dialog and doing the honorable thing. In my way of thinking, it currently seems to be some type of mental illness going on here. I was not referring to your whining. My apologies if you thought I was flaming you. It was not my intention. My intention is to say, I like BMC and its great for an awful lot of us, and then there seems to be a few who are not feeling the love as much&#8230;

bruce


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

plumber1 said:


> Keelhaulin said: "So you think it comes down to a matter of Karma&#8230;" I truly believe that Karma is action, good or bad, which we accumulate as fortune or misfortune, deep down in our lives. It seems to need an outside stimulus to manifest, I believe there has to be some sort of order to things, not just random chaos. So yes, I do believe it comes down to karma, or at least karma plays a huge role, certainly influences the tendency or our nature. That being the case, raising your life condition a little, your environment would have to change in accord. Try it. I truly empathize with your friend's misfortune, and your interpretation of it. That's why I left the other yard for BMC. I just couldn't raise my life condition enough to stay. Then again, maybe my karma changed, because I went from such a horrible experience at Yard X, to a great one at BMC. Who knows&#8230;. It seems to be very subjective.


OK; now that the Dead Hour is over and the pot smoke has dissipated... Can we come back to planet earth now?? The situation my friend was in had NOTHING, let me repeat, NOTHING to do with is attitude or his "Karma". The guy is so friendly he never once complained about the lay days or anything until it was time to go back in the water. He did not become angry about the 6 month wait until he was told "you were not a priority" and once in his slip started finding items like hose clamps left un-tightened and other items not done correctly (or not done at all).



> I fish out of Berkeley, I haul out of BMC, I have a lot of friends who haul out at BMC, I am a do it yourselfer, and ask the yard do what I am not capable of doing. And I am a commercial fisherman. And I have folks I consider to be friends who work at BMC. I like BMC, I like the people there. I might even like you.


OK; here comes -my- *speculation*. I _*speculate*_ that BMC tends to favor powerboats. Specifically commercial fishing boats; because commercial fishermen tend to be considered "blue collar" guys who work hard for a living and are a part of the boating "industry"; not the "pleasure" boating side. I think they only help and do competent work for people they respect and if you are not a DIY'er you will get screwed because you don't live up to their ideal and they won't give you the time of day (or for whatever their discriminatory reason is to consider a paying customer a non-priority; but this is just my observation based on what I saw going on in the yard).

If that is what you consider Karma; well I guess it works for you. But in my book it is simply jealousy that a young college educated guy like my friend can afford a nice 41' sailboat as a "pleasure" boat and not have to work like a commercial fisherman to afford to be out sailing on weekends.



> the guy you so avidly defend, might have a predisposition to ripping people off instead of entering into dialog and doing the honorable thing. In my way of thinking, it currently seems to be some type of mental illness going on here.


Well we have no evidence of him ripping anyone off; so I would not make that accusation. Nor should you; since it brings negative credibility to your name here, especially since you have but two posts on this board. (see earlier post regarding BMC affiliates, since you making a damn big accusation with no leg to stand on)

I have not defended his position with regard to BMC. I was defending him on the issue of being called out for using more than one username; which as I said before I did not feel he was doing so to act as if there were more people in dispute with BMC. My defense the "rip off" theory is just that. You have no evidence of it so I'm defending this board from false statements and the overall credibility; not the OP.



> I was not referring to your whining. My apologies if you thought I was flaming you. It was not my intention.


So you apologize for if I thought you were flaming me; preceded by calling me a whiner? You know; your Karma is wearing a bit thin now...

BTW; I did not take your statements as a flame, I was calling into question your "theory" about Karma and pointing out the fact that it really does not hold water with my friend's situation. I really don't care what you think about my personal "karma"; because it's just a superstition like so many others wafting around in Berkeley. I do believe that you should treat others as you would expect to be treated yourself; but that does not mean there should be no debate over issues like the why's of a keel falling off, or how BMC dragged their feet and did shotty work on a friend's boat.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

KeelHaulin said:


> ...in my book it is simply jealousy that a young college educated guy like my friend can afford a nice 41' sailboat as a "pleasure" boat and not have to work like a commercial fisherman to afford to be out sailing on weekends.


Now who's on drugs?









Whatever the cause of the *alleged* problem your friend had with the BMC (because, after all, we only have your word on the matter) it seems unlikely that the simple fact that he is affluent enough to afford a nice boat and the time to use it would cause any marine business operator to treat him shabbily. There are many thousands of boat owners just like him in the Bay Area and they are the life-blood of just about every yard here. Why would Cree pick your friend to be jealous of when he has contact with a dozen boaters in the same demographic every single day? Your pal ain't special. Not to mention you make the assumption that Cree is not as well educated or as affluent as your friend is.

You need to come up with another theory, IMHO.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Fstbttms said:


> Whatever the cause of the *alleged* problem your friend had with the BMC (because, after all, we only have your word on the matter) it seems unlikely that the simple fact that he is affluent enough to afford a nice boat and the time to use it would cause any marine business operator to treat him shabbily.


Well I still can't figure out another reason; can you? Stick down 6 months for a simple re-rig; work done incorrectly, work left 1/2 done, contracted work ultimately refused for lack of interest or knowledge, yard did not inspect prop shaft on replacement with dripless seal (shaft later found to be warped at packing gland), which caused damage to newly installed shaft coupling, etc. etc.

I never said the yard owner was behind it. It could be the yard scheduler; it could be the employees, I can't say on "who" because I don't know what their workflow management is or who was assigned work on his boat. All I am saying is that it seems strange that the people who tend to defend the yard so much are the commercial boat owners, and DIY'ers; while people who have sailboats and are at the mercy of the yard schedule have been getting screwed. When asked why a propane locker re-location was not completed (since they had dragged their feet for so long); they said they did not want to be bothered with that particular job. This was a job that the PO had agreed to fix and my friend had waited 6 months for. It was a condition of his survey which made it an insurance compliance issue also. So that was something he had to have done by an outside contractor while dockside. One would think that an easy job like that would be a no-brainer for a good yard crew. But it appears that BMC must have much bigger fish to fry, so they can afford to ditch the small work and give the shaft to those who are not very high on their money making list.

As I said at the end of that paragraph; I don't know -exactly- what the reason was (was it economics, a hold up with Svendsens, jealousy, squeaky wheels getting all the attention, all of the above? It sure seemed like if you owned a fishing boat you were "a priority"; while those boats who were not work boats were "not a priority" (as stated by the yard manager or owner; I don't know which). When I visited the yard on several occasions to check on my friend's boat we noticed how much work was getting done on the big commercial boats; while my friend's boat sat for months with no contracted work being done.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

KeelHaulin said:


> Well I still can't figure out another reason; can you?


With only one side of the story being related to us, I choose not to assume anything. Except that jealousy seems an unlikely reason for any of what you claim.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Well maybe it's just a bias; it could be an un-conscious decision to de-prioritize people who don't complain or are not working on their boat all of the time (like DIY'ers or fishermen who call their boat their workplace). I don't know; but there is some problem with their scheduling of work (for some unknown reason) and it does seem to have a bias toward the fishing boats.

I agree that the sailboats make up a large percentage of their business; but with so many boats and owners in the "pool" of boats there can be quite a lot of bad work and non repeat business before they ever run out of customers. Again; I hope this does not happen to BMC and it's employees; I do hope that they take note of the fact that people are talking here and elsewhere about bad experiences and make the necesary changes to improve their customer service and satisfaction.


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