# Volvo Ocean Race.



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Team Vestas Wind: A Twenty-First-Century Shipwreck


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I saw an interview where the captain was blaming others on his crew for the errors that resulted in the wreck. It was one of the most classless displays of sportsmanship I've ever seen. The navigator did the same, blaming the shore support team for errors that contributed the wreck.
At 19 knots, it is an absolute miracle no one was seriously injured.
IMO, there is absolutely no excuse for a professional crew to screw up that badly and I would very much like to see the captain and navigator banned for life from the sport.
How many years did men sail these races with only a sextant and stopwatch without ramming their boats onto some reef? Shame on these guys.


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## Uricanejack (Nov 17, 2012)

long thread in the racing section


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/racing/177722-team-vestas-wind-grounded-vor.html

For more discussion.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

capta said:


> The navigator did the same, blaming the shore support team for errors that contributed the wreck.


Would you happen to have a cite for that? I've yet to hear him try to place the blame elsewhere, he certainly didn't do so in his original post on Facebook, or during the press conference call on Monday:

walking tall | Sailing Anarchy



capta said:


> IMO, there is absolutely no excuse for a professional crew to screw up that badly and *I would very much like to see the captain and navigator banned for life from the sport.*


I don't know, sounds a bit harsh, to me... And, if nothing else, if there is anyone out there now LESS likely to repeat such a mistake, it might just be those two guys...

Bernard Moitessier lost 3 boats during the course of his life. The third time, JOSHUA was destroyed on the beach during a storm after being left unattended in Cabo San Lucas, while he was in an apartment in town smoking dope with the actor Klaus Kinski... And yet, he will always be regarded by most as a quintessential voyaging icon... Go figure... 



capta said:


> How many years did men sail these races with only a sextant and stopwatch without ramming their boats onto some reef? Shame on these guys.


Well, until recently, the Whitbread/Volvo races were sailed primarily along deep water/open ocean routes, where the most likely things they might have run into were icebergs... 

As an aside, seems a shame this story has been compartmentalized in the "Racing" sub-forum of Sailnet... This story has generated a tremendous amount of discussion on other forums, I'm surprised at the comparative lack of discussion here. I suspect a lot of folks aren't reading this due to its placement under Racing, which seems a shame, as the story largely revolves around the issues of electronic navigation which are vitally important to ALL sailors today...


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

JonEisberg


> Would you happen to have a cite for that?


I just saw it on a vidclip where he mentioned how the shore support team did all the route planning and he'd been too tired to check it out thoroughly? It was only a sentence or two.



> I don't know, sounds a bit harsh, to me... And, if nothing else, if there is anyone out there now LESS likely to repeat such a mistake, it might just be those two guys...


Just because nobody got seriously injured, doesn't mean that it should be passed off as an "oh well, sh*t happens" situation. Every single one of them could have died from the ineptitude of the skipper and navigator. If someone in another sport put that many other participants' lives at risk, do you not think they would be banned for life?



> Bernard Moitessier lost 3 boats during the course of his life.


Apples and oranges; nobody else's life was at risk; he was a singlehander, and I guess the 3 boats he did loose cost less than that com package on Vestus. A whole lot less.



> As an aside, seems a shame this story has been compartmentalized in the "Racing" sub-forum of Sailnet... This story has generated a tremendous amount of discussion on other forums, I'm surprised at the comparative lack of discussion here. I suspect a lot of folks aren't reading this due to its placement under Racing, which seems a shame, as the story largely revolves around the issues of electronic navigation which are vitally important to ALL sailors today.


I agree with this wholeheartedly.


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

Capta.....next time you have a thought......just let it go . The Captain of the Team Vestas boat very publicly took responsibility for what happened in the old school way of I'm the Captain , I'm responsible . As well , the navigator did the same & recounted that he advised the captain when queried about shallows the depth limits were 40 m - 600 m & that he hadn't zoomed far enough in the NAV program to reveal the reef . NEITHER ONE OF THESE MEN HAS IN ANY WAY SKIRTED RESPONSIBILITY OR ATTEMPTED TO LAY BLAME ELSEWHERE . The two sentences you refer to as trying to lay the blame on the shore crew cause me to believe someone failed reading comprehension in junior high . I saw the interview in which he made that statement & he was in NO way inferring blame . " I was tired & failed to check it out thoroughly ." means exactly that .....operative word in that sentence being I. Is your arm chair comfortable enough ??? How arrogantly & casually you presume to besmirch the HONOR of honorable men . You sir.....should be ashamed .


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

kjango said:


> Capta.....next time you have a thought......just let it go . The Captain of the Team Vestas boat very publicly took responsibility for what happened in the old school way of I'm the Captain , I'm responsible . As well , the navigator did the same & recounted that he advised the captain when queried about shallows the depth limits were 40 m - 600 m & that he hadn't zoomed far enough in the NAV program to reveal the reef . NEITHER ONE OF THESE MEN HAS IN ANY WAY SKIRTED RESPONSIBILITY OR ATTEMPTED TO LAY BLAME ELSEWHERE . The two sentences you refer to as trying to lay the blame on the shore crew cause me to believe someone failed reading comprehension in junior high . I saw the interview in which he made that statement & he was in NO way inferring blame . " I was tired & failed to check it out thoroughly ." means exactly that .....operative word in that sentence being I. Is your arm chair comfortable enough ??? How arrogantly & casually you presume to besmirch the HONOR of honorable men . You sir.....should be ashamed .


Yes the captain did say that, but then he hedged his bets by saying something like it was a team effort and others were also not doing their jobs. He should have stopped at, "I'm responsible." period.
So where is the honor in trashing a vessel and putting all those who have placed their lives in your hands in jeopardy? These men FAILED to do their duty and they failed the trust others, from their crew to the sponsors, put in them and I see no honor in this failure. The shame is theirs, not mine. If you consider competence arrogance, then by all means call me what you please. I have zero respect for them and stand by my statement that they should be banned from the sport for life.


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

Arm chair ocean racing skippers, navigators and crew. Don't you just love em?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Dave_E said:


> Arm chair ocean racing skippers, navigators and crew. Don't you just love em?


And I suppose you have a couple of ocean crossings under your topsiders?


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

capta said:


> And I suppose you have a couple of ocean crossings under your topsiders?


Absolutely NOT! Never even been out on the open ocean (certainly like to though). Kind of like football, baseball and everything else. Evereyone has the better way and an opinion. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know there was a foul up... by the crew. So let's give them our sympathy, our best wishes and watch the rest of the race... not beat them up, ban them from racing etc., etc..
If the crew gets nasty with each other... they have the right to, we don't. Just my .02 of inshore sailing.

David


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

with you Dave. All the arm chair VOR racers that sail on boats that can't even get out of their own way know way more about sailing at 19 kts, then the real VOR sailors. until they have sailed in the VOR and not made a mistake they should just lay off the guys. and if they want to try again, Great, they should. I am sure the armchair guys never made a mistake either. saying the captain should take all the blame is ridiculous. it is a all out race boat and a team effort. the captain has to put trust in the guys on the team or he would have to be up 24 hours a day for the whole race. they made a mistake and someone will again. thats racing. I have raced for over 50 years. and made a few mistakes. even made one last year but not yet this year, the year is not over yet


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

capta said:


> And I suppose you have a couple of ocean crossings under your topsiders?


hahahahaha What a blowhard , shoe clerk , irrelevant comment .


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

capta said:


> Yes the captain did say that, but then he hedged his bets by saying something like it was a team effort and others were also not doing their jobs.


This just never happened except in YOUR mind . So what color is the sky crossing all those oceans where you live in Lala Land ???


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

capta said:


> Yes the captain did say that, but then he hedged his bets by saying something like it was a team effort and others were also not doing their jobs. He should have stopped at, "I'm responsible." period.
> So where is the honor in trashing a vessel and putting all those who have placed their lives in your hands in jeopardy? These men FAILED to do their duty and they failed the trust others, from their crew to the sponsors, put in them and I see no honor in this failure. The shame is theirs, not mine. If you consider competence arrogance, then by all means call me what you please. I have zero respect for them and stand by my statement that they should be banned from the sport for life.


We'll just have to agree to disagree on this...

No question, how this could have occurred in this day and age seems unfathomable... However, none of us were on that boat, we still know precious little about the precise chain of events that led to this calamity. Why not include the Watch Captain in your Lifetime Ban, perhaps even the helmsman, as well? I suspect many of us with a fair amount of sea time have made some incredibly dumb mistakes, and have simply been lucky enough that they turned out not to have such disastrous consequences. I know I certainly have. And as one who does a fair amount of singlehanded sailing, I have to accept that every time I go below to grab a bit of sleep, I could be minutes away from making what might turn out to be - in hindsight - a really, _really_ stupid decision... But whatever Nicholson did aboard VESTAS, it certainly does not come remotely close to rising to the level of willful "negligence" comparable to the actions of the skipper of the BOUNTY, to name one example...

Furthermore, once they were on the reef, by all appearances the skipper's leadership in keeping his crew safe throughout the night and subsequent abandonment was nothing short of exemplary. Just a hunch, but I would guess that every man aboard that boat would have no hesitation of sailing with that skipper again. And, Vestas has made it clear that in the event they might be able to resume racing with another boat, Nicholson will still be their man...

I suspect the navigational practices aboard VESTAS differed very little than those aboard all the other boats, and I'll bet the reaction to this incident among the rest of the fleet has been almost a universal acknowledgment along the lines of _"There but for the grace of..."_ It certainly appears that if DONGFENG didn't have the good fortune to pass by during daylight, they might have sailed into danger as well, they wound up cutting the reef extremely close, both at the south and north ends... SCA was the only boat to pass to the east, do we know for a fact they knew it was there, as well?

The sort of sailing these guys are doing is about as different from what most of us do, as is the difference between racing an F1 car thru the streets of Monaco, and driving down to the convenience store for some milk. Certainly, the same principle applies, we both have to keep the car on the road. I've been adamant here and elsewhere in my belief that the most rudimentary of navigational principles - maintaining a running plot on a paper chart, for instance - could have easily averted this grounding. Seems obvious such a practice was not being carried out aboard VESTAS, but whatever they were doing had worked well enough for them in the past. This is the skipper's FIFTH Volvo Race, and the navigator's resume is pretty damn impressive, as well. The only possible explanation I can come up with for this sort of fundamental lapse is a level of fatigue few of us can begin to imagine. Similar, perhaps, to the sort of disorientation climbers can experience at high altitudes on a mountain like Everest, or that cyclists have to fight through during the course of an event like the Tour de France... I simply think very few of us here can appreciate the amount of stuff the navigators of these boats have on their plates, and the amount of pressure they're under, especially when operating on the fringes of a tropical storm. The nature of the game is that these guys are acting as Weather Routers and Tacticians first, and 'Navigators' second... You and I may think they have it backwards, but that's not how the game is being played, nor how you win the VOR. Undoubtedly, the beneficial result of this incident will be to tip the scales among the rest of the fleet back towards a more favorable balance...

Finally, for those unfamiliar with the routing program Expedition that the fleet is using, this excerpt from a post over on Sailing Anarchy gives a pretty good sense of the complexity of the chore of 'navigating' a boat in the VOR has become (emphasis mine):



> Navigating/Weather Routing skills with the opportunities and constraints of short-crewed offshore/ocean racing boats (particularly where wind speed and boat speed are the nearly constantly the same), simply cannot be compared with other norms people may be familiar with. By way of example:
> 
> Modern racing navigation programs like Expedition, Adrena etc are extremely powerful and sophisticated. In fact only those at the very top of the game use these programs to their full potential. *At any one time a navigator may be manipulating dozens or more weather/current orientated routes including their own and those of other competitors. Overlaying this are the tactical route options that may not be weather related.
> 
> ...


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

ah......the voice of logic & reason.....it's a beautiful sound.....thanks Jon


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Your facts are simply wrong. Nico took responsibility as "captain" but then immediately said that the breakdown happened with the crew. But really, he should have been looking at the charts and ensuring there was a culture on board of looking at the charts.



kjango said:


> Capta.....next time you have a thought......just let it go . The Captain of the Team Vestas boat very publicly took responsibility for what happened in the old school way of I'm the Captain , I'm responsible . As well , the navigator did the same & recounted that he advised the captain when queried about shallows the depth limits were 40 m - 600 m & that he hadn't zoomed far enough in the NAV program to reveal the reef . NEITHER ONE OF THESE MEN HAS IN ANY WAY SKIRTED RESPONSIBILITY OR ATTEMPTED TO LAY BLAME ELSEWHERE . The two sentences you refer to as trying to lay the blame on the shore crew cause me to believe someone failed reading comprehension in junior high . I saw the interview in which he made that statement & he was in NO way inferring blame . " I was tired & failed to check it out thoroughly ." means exactly that .....operative word in that sentence being I. Is your arm chair comfortable enough ??? How arrogantly & casually you presume to besmirch the HONOR of honorable men . You sir.....should be ashamed .


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> The sort of sailing these guys are doing is about as different from what most of us do, as is the difference between racing an F1 car thru the streets of Monaco, and driving down to the convenience store for some milk.


Not as it relates to ensuring clear water ahead. That principle is the same, except for the fact that they have about 4 times as many people on board to do this easy task as I usually do, and I suspect the same is true for you.

I understand the constant intensity of a long distance race. The helmsman is not looking down at the chart while he veers 25 degrees off course. But there are always others on watch. It is as simple as pulling out the cell/phone tablet once per hour and doing a check that takes 3 minutes. There is time to do that.

That they don't have chartplotters on deck is crazy. And, it is not about the "brightness." Their B&G Zeus setup lights up the deck like a Christmas tree. Not for the helmsman, but someone else on deck can be looking at the chartplotter periodically.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Here it is:






Watch from 5:55 on.



kjango said:


> This just never happened except in YOUR mind . So what color is the sky crossing all those oceans where you live in Lala Land ???


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

kjango said:


> Capta.....next time you have a thought......just let it go . The Captain of the Team Vestas boat very publicly took responsibility for what happened in the old school way of I'm the Captain , I'm responsible . As well , the navigator did the same & recounted that he advised the captain when queried about shallows the depth limits were 40 m - 600 m & that he hadn't zoomed far enough in the NAV program to reveal the reef . NEITHER ONE OF THESE MEN HAS IN ANY WAY SKIRTED RESPONSIBILITY OR ATTEMPTED TO LAY BLAME ELSEWHERE . The two sentences you refer to as trying to lay the blame on the shore crew cause me to believe someone failed reading comprehension in junior high . I saw the interview in which he made that statement & he was in NO way inferring blame . " I was tired & failed to check it out thoroughly ." means exactly that .....operative word in that sentence being I. Is your arm chair comfortable enough ??? How arrogantly & casually you presume to besmirch the HONOR of honorable men . You sir.....should be ashamed .


What I said......& this differs from explanation in the video how??? Put the crack pipes down boys & run for town.....Payless Shoes is hiring


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

He said that the breakdown came from the crew. Did you even watch it?



kjango:2430866 said:


> kjango said:
> 
> 
> > Capta.....next time you have a thought......just let it go . The Captain of the Team Vestas boat very publicly took responsibility for what happened in the old school way of I'm the Captain , I'm responsible . As well , the navigator did the same & recounted that he advised the captain when queried about shallows the depth limits were 40 m - 600 m & that he hadn't zoomed far enough in the NAV program to reveal the reef . NEITHER ONE OF THESE MEN HAS IN ANY WAY SKIRTED RESPONSIBILITY OR ATTEMPTED TO LAY BLAME ELSEWHERE . The two sentences you refer to as trying to lay the blame on the shore crew cause me to believe someone failed reading comprehension in junior high . I saw the interview in which he made that statement & he was in NO way inferring blame . " I was tired & failed to check it out thoroughly ." means exactly that .....operative word in that sentence being I. Is your arm chair comfortable enough ??? How arrogantly & casually you presume to besmirch the HONOR of honorable men . You sir.....should be ashamed .
> ...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jzk said:


> Your facts are simply wrong. Nico took responsibility as "captain" but then immediately said that the breakdown happened with the crew. But really, he should have been looking at the charts and ensuring there was a culture on board of looking at the charts.


Yeah, we certainly wouldn't want to have what _he actually said_ to alter anyone's _perception_ of what he said... Especially, given the possible lack of context of his initial comments, which were most likely in response to a question or prompting that we never heard:

_"It's clear that human error is responsible for the shipwreck, there's no avoiding that. And as skipper, I take ultimate responsibility."

"As skipper you end up with ultimate responsibility, but below that is different sections of where people take individual control of those areas. One of these areas was the breakdown that let this happen.

"As the skipper, you have to&#8230; you cannot be 100% on top of every role. You have to trust the individuals. It's no different to any organization, any business, and any other team in the world. It's just the same. You have to place that trust in the individuals to do their role."

"At the end of the day we didn't look at the chart and we didn't zoom in enough."
_



jzk said:


> He said that the breakdown came from the crew. Did you even watch it?


Do you have reason to doubt the accuracy of that statement? That the _INITIAL_ failure/mistake was that of the navigator's?


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

The navigator ( crew member) said it was his fault.....did you even read it ???? LHM I'm done . If I was so convicted in the perspective that you & Captn armchair are maintaining . Instead of a witch hunt I'd be sending a resume to Vestas Wind as a Captn navigator team. Failing that.....I hear Payless Shoes needs shoeclerks .


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

His statement is as if he is the CEO, and this happened in the Singapore office.

This was a group effort. There are at least three people on that boat such that had any one of them had their head in the game and been practicing basic seamanship, this would not have happened.

There is the Navigator. He put them on a course for the Island, and had no idea.

There is the watch captain. I don't know who that is. Maybe it was the actual captain, as Chris seems to have been on watch at the time. The watch captain should have been looking at the charts PERSONALLY every so often. They have the laptops, and they also have B&G Zeus Touch chartplotters at the nav station.

Back to Captain Chris. The evidence suggests that he was on deck talking about them going over some shoals at a depth of 40m. At the point that he knew he was in a situation with the depth changing significantly (1000m just before that), he should have looked at the chart, or told someone to check it/verify it. Instead, he had no situational awareness of where his vessel was.

And then there is the job of the Captain to implement procedures whereby this stuff gets checked. Are they talking about it? Or are they just talking about the wind shift?



JonEisberg said:


> Yeah, we certainly wouldn't want to have what _he actually said_ to alter anyone's _perception_ of what he said... Especially, given the possible lack of context of his initial comments, which were most likely in response to a question or prompting that we never heard:
> 
> _"It's clear that human error is responsible for the shipwreck, there's no avoiding that. And as skipper, I take ultimate responsibility."
> 
> ...


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

kjango said:


> The navigator ( crew member) said it was his fault.....did you even read it ???? LHM I'm done . If I was so convicted in the perspective that you & Captn armchair are maintaining . Instead of a witch hunt I'd be sending a resume to Vestas Wind as a Captn navigator team. Failing that.....I hear Payless Shoes needs shoeclerks .


I read it, did you? What exactly was he taking responsibility for? He took some responsibility, and then said that his mistake was thinking they had everything they needed. But he DID have everything he needed. He just didn't use it in its very basic form.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Don't they have alarms on the chart plotters? They multiple plotters on board and not one had an alarm going off? I can't imagine the "zoom level" needs to be set for the alarm to go off. Not that they should be relying totally on tech for there safety, but it seems a simple setup to input the draft of the boat so an alarm goes off when they approaching water to shallow.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

jzk said:


> His statement is as if he is the CEO, and this happened in the Singapore office.


Not at all, if he was talking as if he was a CEO he would take no responsibility, and have already had another job lined up and expecting a huge severance package.


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## Morild (Mar 31, 2013)

miatapaul said:


> Don't they have alarms on the chart plotters? They multiple plotters on board and not one had an alarm going off? I can't imagine the "zoom level" needs to be set for the alarm to go off. Not that they should be relying totally on tech for there safety, but it seems a simple setup to input the draft of the boat so an alarm goes off when they approaching water to shallow.


It might seem simple, but it's not.
The charts in these areas are raster-images, and therefore the plotter as such does not know the depth. It is just images.
It's not like a depth sounder, where you can set an alarm.


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

Kjango if you cant play nicely then step away from the keyboard. Yet another interesting sailnet thread goes down the tubes due to [edit]. Finding less and less reason to stay here with intelligence like this


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## clip68 (Jun 26, 2014)

Why have one thread about a tragedy when you can have 3?


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Morild said:


> It might seem simple, but it's not.
> The charts in these areas are raster-images, and therefore the plotter as such does not know the depth. It is just images.
> It's not like a depth sounder, where you can set an alarm.


Actually, there are vector depth contours. This feature certainly could be added. But it is just a feature. It is not a crutch to avoid basic seamanship.

Basic seamanship is KNOWING that there is clear water ahead. With the navionics android app this is very easy as one can look at the current position, and then follow the red course line that extends forward.


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

delite said:


> Kjango if you cant play nicely then step away from the keyboard. Yet another interesting sailnet thread goes down the tubes due to [edit]. Finding less and less reason to stay here with intelligence like this


Thank you for your advise on how I have chosen personally to express & deport myself . I just have no memory of having asked you .


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

Way too many google "experts" on this thread 
maybe one of the armchair sailors would care to go and help rimas navigate after they have finished teaching team vestas how to sail


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## piclarke (Nov 19, 2001)

Morild said:


> It might seem simple, but it's not.
> The charts in these areas are raster-images, and therefore the plotter as such does not know the depth. It is just images.
> It's not like a depth sounder, where you can set an alarm.


Surely the depth sounder alarm should be set and the radar alarms can be set and hazard waypoints activated / set before the leaving port.

Fairly simple to do and not time consuming as a safety measure against the GPS's systems being thrown by the Military.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

piclarke said:


> *Surely the depth sounder alarm should be set* and the radar alarms can be set and hazard waypoints activated / set before the leaving port.


And, surely they would have been disabled before they were out of sight of the South African coastline, out of frustration/annoyance with the incidence of false alarms... Have you ever actually sailed off soundings with a depth alarm set?

Depth alarms would have made NO difference in this incident... They already _KNEW_ the were "sailing over some shoals... 40 meter depth...", in the words of Nicholson...

Not to mention, how do you know that awareness might not have been triggered by an alarm, anyway?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I find it absolutely amazing that a couple of amateur sailors can so vehemently and abusively attack someone who has made his living in a field they only dabble in. To call me an armchair sailor is kinda like the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it? Except that I am sitting on a boat for from home while I write and I believe they are both sitting in their armchairs, or near by.
It is likely I was doing TransPacs before these gentlemen, ahem, got their first dinghy.
How can these gentlemen, ahem, have any idea of the realities and responsibilities of operating a vessel as a professional crew, in stressful circumstances, if they have never done it before? But I do know what it's like to be so exhausted that the numbers in the sight reduction tables merge into a jumble of black and white. Yet miraculously, none of the boats sailing way back then, without all these modern navaids, managed to drive onto a reef or island.
Your attack on me is uncalled for, as I am also a professional sailor, so I believe I do have the right to criticize my peers. You are of course welcome to your opinion, but your fanatical defense of the Vestus crew baffles me completely. I will never understand how you can defend a captain who has lost his vessel in a perfectly preventable situation.


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

Capta you must have discovered by now that this site has more than its share of clowns that are lucky to be able to find their own butts with both hands. There are also many good people and sailors on this site, unfortunately not many of them on this thread. 
To bad the mods let it get out of hand rather than injecting some civility about page 2.
Other than some great advice on repairs from a few people there is little reason to visit this site after a year or so. Looking at the recent threads many have been covered 7 or 8 times in the time I have been here. Spend your time sailing and dont worry about the rants of some future darwin award winners.


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

Making a living as a "professional" sailor, or having a pocket full of licenses means you are a Professional sailor and or have a pocket full of licenses.... That's it. This is just one of those topics that is going to get lots of second guessing, criticizing and would, shoulda, couldas by EVERYONE... which includes all the sailors that never make mistakes, because they're so above the rest of us dopey regular sailors and they're "professional".

CRAP! There are 2 threads of this topic going on at the moment... both have their stars.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

delite said:


> Capta you must have discovered by now that this site has more than its share of clowns that are lucky to be able to find their own butts with both hands. There are also many good people and sailors on this site, unfortunately not many of them on this thread.
> To bad the mods let it get out of hand rather than injecting some civility about page 2.
> Other than some great advice on repairs from a few people there is little reason to visit this site after a year or so. Looking at the recent threads many have been covered 7 or 8 times in the time I have been here. Spend your time sailing and dont worry about the rants of some future darwin award winners.


Delite ... pull your head in. The conversation has been robust certainly but given the complete and utter lack of whining from offended souls, with one notable exception, the indication is that everyone here is content fighting their own corner. Those posters with the right stuff become pretty apparent in the long run and there is no need for you to go around abusing others when you have not even been involved in the discussion.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Useless post that isn't relevant to any issues presented by this grounding.

The whole point is that anyone that takes a bayliner or mac26 off the dock needs to know basic seamanship such that they keep their vessel off the rocks. Check the charts. Ensure that you KNOW that there is clear water ahead. It is very easy and takes minutes periodically.

No expertise necessary. Just basic seamanship. That is where these guys missed it. Basic seamanship.



white74 said:


> Way too many google "experts" on this thread
> maybe one of the armchair sailors would care to go and help rimas navigate after they have finished teaching team vestas how to sail


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

capta said:


> I will never understand how you can defend a captain who has lost his vessel in a perfectly preventable situation.


I believe you may be confusing a "defense of the captain" with a basic disagreement of your suggestion that he be "banned for life" from further participation in the sport...

)

Agreed, it certainly seems inexplicable, on so many levels, how this could have occurred. However, I have made mistakes/oversights just as dumb as some of those that contributed to this mishap, although fortunately having far less serious consequences... Should I therefore be prohibited from sailing again, or accepting future delivery work, as well?


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Jon,

What kind of chartplotter do you use?



JonEisberg said:


> I believe you may be confusing a "defense of the captain" with a basic disagreement of your suggestion that he be "banned for life" from further participation in the sport...
> 
> )
> 
> Agreed, it certainly seems inexplicable, on so many levels, how this could have occurred. However, I have made mistakes/oversights just as dumb as some of those that contributed to this mishap, although fortunately having far less serious consequences... Should I therefore be prohibited from sailing again, or accepting future delivery work, as well?


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

piclarke said:


> Surely the depth sounder alarm should be set and the radar alarms can be set and hazard waypoints activated / set before the leaving port.
> 
> Fairly simple to do and not time consuming as a safety measure against the GPS's systems being thrown by the Military.


I crossed Atlantic twice on my 47 footer. My equipment may not be so sophisticated but:
On open ocean the depth alarm is not an option. 
Every larger breaking wave pushes mixture of air and water below surface. Depth sounder recognizes that as shallow. One can read 2 or 3 m depth every few hours even in trade wind conditions. On a 23 day leg this means hundreds of false alarms.

Radar: Forget it. low sand island is lower then medium size ocean wave.
Radar guard zone alarm goes off every few minutes in any rough weather and you go nuts long before your shift is over unless off-shift crew would kill you for not allowing them to sleep before you go nuts. If you reduce sensitivity on a radar to a point to eliminate false alarms then it is better to save energy and turn radar off. The only think visible would be full size ships and large or high islands. You do not need radar for ships (they have AIS) and you know about those islands anyway.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

An alarm could be incorporated in your chartplotter. If your course will intersect a depth hazard at a certain range, sound the alarm.

But this is just a feature. A bell and whistle. It does not relieve the duty to incorporate basic seamanship.



tomaz_423 said:


> I crossed Atlantic twice on my 47 footer. My equipment may not be so sophisticated but:
> On open ocean the depth alarm is not an option.
> Every larger breaking wave pushes mixture of air and water below surface. Depth sounder recognizes that as shallow. One can read 2 or 3 m depth every few hours even in trade wind conditions. On a 23 day leg this means hundreds of false alarms.
> 
> ...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jzk said:


> Jon,
> 
> What kind of chartplotter do you use?


A very dated (12+ years old?) Simrad 32 at the nav table below, a somewhat less dated Simrad 44 in the cockpit.. I've also taken to using an iPad during the last year, as well...

I'm an dinosaur, of course, in my reliance upon paper charts for initial route planning, cross-checking, and keeping a timely plot on paper...

None of them are infallible, though they're still likely to be less fallible than the navigator himself...


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Are you able to maintain your night vision with the Simrad44 in the cockpit?



JonEisberg said:


> A very dated (12+ years old?) Simrad 32 at the nav table below, a somewhat less dated Simrad 44 in the cockpit.. I've also taken to using an iPad during the last year, as well...
> 
> I'm an dinosaur, of course, in my reliance upon paper charts for initial route planning, cross-checking, and keeping a timely plot on paper...
> 
> None of them are infallible, though they're still likely to be less fallible than the navigator himself...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jzk said:


> Are you able to maintain your night vision with the Simrad44 in the cockpit?


Well, as always, _It Depends_... I'll usually have it turned off, or covered, except when I need to refer to it - which might be very rarely, when sailing offshore...

In some situations Yes, in others, No... But in general, I'm in the camp of displays almost always being too bright for my taste...

When sailing a boat like this one, I'd very likely have a towel draped over that whole cluster most of the time... In very broad terms, I tend to be more concerned with seeing what's ahead, than what's on the plotter...

Like I said, I'm a dinosaur, in that regard... 










One of the most irritating displays at the helm I've ever dealt with, was this Raymarine on a Trintella 50... at the level of lighting necessary to make is actually usable, it was still pretty blinding... That thing lived under cover most of the time after dark...

Although, the worst aspect of that freakin' setup, was the absurdly tight clearance between the corners of the plotter, and the rim of the wheel... Incredibly dangerous, especially when wearing heavy gloves or foul weather gear, I was always amazed no one ever suffered a serious hand or wrist injury while driving that boat...

Not to mention, its placement rendered the compass completely unreadable when standing at the helm... Of course, that's a minor detail, these days...


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## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

Banning the skipper and navigator for life is unwarranted and unnecessary. The professional sailor "market" will address this situation accordingly. The skipper will always be known as the captain who grounded the Volvo Ocean 65, and I'm sure that will be a huge hurdle to overcome when he is looking for his next job. Maybe he will have to go back to the "minors" and prove himself again before getting another shot at the majors or maybe he will just fade into obscurity and never get another shot at a major race. On the other hand, maybe an owner will trust his experience and skill despite the crash and be willing to give him another shot. As for crew, if they don't trust his skill or judgment they won't crew for him. Whatever the case, it will be people who have " skin in the game" that will be making the decision, not some administrative body that may have other concerns, such as publicity, politics etc.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

I have this little nexus chartplotter at the helm. I put it there more to display any of the Nexus information than its chartplotting abilities. But, I do use it. It has a very dim green backlight, and monochrome display. It doesn't have any effect on night vision. Garmin at the chart table. Garmin 276c handheld. A tablet and my phone. I probably use my phone the most as I can be lying in my berth and I can take a quick peek to be sure all is well without getting up.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Well it sounds like the team is doing everything possible to find another boat for them as fast as they can.



Slayer said:


> Banning the skipper and navigator for life is unwarranted and unnecessary. The professional sailor "market" will address this situation accordingly. The skipper will always be known as the captain who grounded the Volvo Ocean 65, and I'm sure that will be a huge hurdle to overcome when he is looking for his next job. Maybe he will have to go back to the "minors" and prove himself again before getting another shot at the majors or maybe he will just fade into obscurity and never get another shot at a major race. On the other hand, maybe an owner will trust his experience and skill despite the crash and be willing to give him another shot. As for crew, if they don't trust his skill or judgment they won't crew for him. Whatever the case, it will be people who have " skin in the game" that will be making the decision, not some administrative body that may have other concerns, such as publicity, politics etc.


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## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

jzk said:


> Well it sounds like the team is doing everything possible to find another boat for them as fast as they can.


So redemption is still a possibility.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jzk said:


> I probably use my phone the most as I can be lying in my berth and I can take a quick peek to be sure all is well without getting up.


yeah, that will work...

Until, it _doesn't..._


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Do explain. If my phone doesn't work, I can always go to.the chart plotter.



JonEisberg:2433058 said:


> jzk said:
> 
> 
> > I probably use my phone the most as I can be lying in my berth and I can take a quick peek to be sure all is well without getting up.
> ...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jzk said:


> Do explain. If my phone doesn't work, I can always go to.the chart plotter.


Or, better yet, you could actually get up from your bunk, stick your head out of the companionway, and have a look around...

Given your relentless screeching over on SA about the lack of "Basic Seamanship" aboard VESTAS WIND, surely I can't be the only one who sees the irony, here...


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Or, you could read my post. There are times one is off watch, no? During those times, it is convenient to.be able to check the chart without leaving one's bunk. How is that a disadvantage? How is that bad seamanship?



JonEisberg:2433570 said:


> jzk said:
> 
> 
> > Do explain. If my phone doesn't work, I can always go to.the chart plotter.
> ...


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

I have always thought it strange that most chart plotters will let you chart a plot straight across land. Seems it would not be hard to write into the code to warn when a plot goes within a certain distance of land. I mean heck my phone tells me even when I don't have navigation running when there is an accident ahead. I have only ever used old stuff, so I assumed that the newer units had built in warning that your plot is not going to work. Now that they can be hooked up to auto pilot it seems only wise so you don't just plow into a known rock. But I guess that would ruin all the fun we get out of laughing at the power boater that set a course and went down below for a little rollick in the stateroom and plowed into a marker or beach.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

jzk said:


> Useless post that isn't relevant to any issues presented by this grounding.
> 
> The whole point is that anyone that takes a bayliner or mac26 off the dock needs to know basic seamanship such that they keep their vessel off the rocks. Check the charts. Ensure that you KNOW that there is clear water ahead. It is very easy and takes minutes periodically.
> 
> No expertise necessary. Just basic seamanship. That is where these guys missed it. Basic seamanship.


these are not amateur sailors we are talking about 
many have logged more ocean hours than all of us combined it was a tragedy that it happened but time to get off the high horse and realize all sailors can make mistakes and some things just happen
for those who think they are better sailors i will see you on the next volvo ocean team right?
Don't tell me how much you know show me.
Your actions speak so loud i can't hear a word you are saying


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

Just to clarify I do not claim to be and ex spurt I am the first to admit how little i know but in order to compete at this level the teams need to qualify ... and prove their competence.
I have nothing to prove to anyone my ego is not that fragile nor will I put a fancy title on my profile as that is just a bit pretentious.
I know what i know and that is all and if someone has something to share I will listen and evaluate it tempered with my own judgement.
To those "masters" out there, are you really that genitally challenged you need to constantly remind others how much you know?


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

capta said:


> I find it absolutely amazing that a couple of amateur sailors can so vehemently and abusively attack someone who has made his living in a field they only dabble in. To call me an armchair sailor is kinda like the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it? Except that I am sitting on a boat for from home while I write and I believe they are both sitting in their armchairs, or near by.
> It is likely I was doing TransPacs before these gentlemen, ahem, got their first dinghy.
> How can these gentlemen, ahem, have any idea of the realities and responsibilities of operating a vessel as a professional crew, in stressful circumstances, if they have never done it before? But I do know what it's like to be so exhausted that the numbers in the sight reduction tables merge into a jumble of black and white. Yet miraculously, none of the boats sailing way back then, without all these modern navaids, managed to drive onto a reef or island.
> Your attack on me is uncalled for, as I am also a professional sailor, so I believe I do have the right to criticize my peers. You are of course welcome to your opinion, but your fanatical defense of the Vestus crew baffles me completely. I will never understand how you can defend a captain who has lost his vessel in a perfectly preventable situation.


Ahem....sitting in a boat far from home myself ahem I also am a professional sailor ahem & was also a merchant seaman ahem.....so by your stated standard I believe I do have the right to criticize my peers. Lordy it hurts to refer to you even casually as a peer .ahem I may be wrong....please feel free to correct me.....Pretty sure Team Vestas sailors are professional as well . ahem


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

there is apparently, ahem, a shoal of phlegm in this thread.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

bljones said:


> there is apparently, ahem, a shoal of phlegm in this thread.


Spit it out man ... don't be shy.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

actually, this whole thread is a bit of a hairball. *ack*


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## action (Dec 14, 2014)

sounds cool,I'am intrested in it!:laugher:laugher


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

So Jon, are you going to explain the poor seamanship about checking the chart while off watch in one's berth? You took that over to sa like some kind of "gotcha" moment, but it was just lame. Isn't that kind of trolling beneath you?



JonEisberg:2433570 said:


> jzk said:
> 
> 
> > Do explain. If my phone doesn't work, I can always go to.the chart plotter.
> ...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jzk said:


> So Jon, are you going to explain the poor seamanship about checking the chart while off watch in one's berth? You took that over to sa like some kind of "gotcha" moment, but it was just lame. Isn't that kind of trolling beneath you?


Whoa, down boy... On a Saturday night, I sometimes have better things to do than fart around on sailing forums...

My apologies, but I generally come at this stuff from the perspective of a singlehanded sailor, one who accepts the _sole responsibility_ for everything that takes place aboard my boat... You know, the very thing you've been railing against the skipper of VESTAS WIND for not doing to your personal satisfaction...

However, my larger point is to question the further reliance upon such gizmos to alleviate or correct mistakes that often result what I feel is often an excessive reliance upon such gizmos to begin with... For instance, there are few devices less complex, or less prone to failure or malfunction, than a simple alarm clock... But I'm pretty sure I'm not the only solo sailor out there who might have learned the hard way, that a dependance upon even such a relatively foolproof device is not a guarantee of infallibility...

btw, is that phone of yours equipped with radar, as well, to help further assure you "all is well" beyond your bunk?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

As to paper charts being the 'let's all bow down to our god, the infallible paper chart' situation, I would be most interested to know whether the reef Vestus hit is well marked on the scale chart they would have been using for that segment of the voyage.
I know when I was out in that part of the world, if there was little possibility of needing a detailed chart, I didn't carry one.
Does anyone on here have charts for that area and how well marked is that reef on a chart one might be using to transit the area, without the intention of stopping at a port in that area?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, as always, _It Depends_... I'll usually have it turned off, or covered, except when I need to refer to it - which might be very rarely, when sailing offshore...
> In some situations Yes, in others, No... But in general, I'm in the camp of displays almost always being too bright for my taste...


Jon,
We have completely solved that problem on our Garmin 10" plotter at the helm. I got some very dark auto window tint and cut it to fit over the plotter screen. At dark, we wet the screen and place the tint over it and all is fine. We have several pieces cut, should one blow away, but it hasn't happened yet. If it's too dark, just turn up the backlight. Comes right off, no problem, in the morning.
If I were still doing deliveries, I'd just carry a bit with me to cut to fit any equipment on the boat I am delivering. Hope this helps.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

But for the fact that you are not just discussing it, but rather reposting it on a completely different forum just like you did with the 25 foot seas/seadoo thing. And just to take an ad hominem shot. What does it have to do with the Team Vestas grounding even if I navigated from my berth while single handing?

Having the navionics app on the phone to check position while off watch also helps prevent fatigue. As the owner of the boat, it is often difficult for me to get some rest. I am constantly tempted to, as you suggest, get up, stick my head out and take a look. But after awhile, that catches up to you. So getting sleep is essential. Waking up, peeking at the phone and going back to sleep gives me peace of mind. I am also told that many crew do this as well especially when they are on a boat for the first time not being familiar with the seamanship skills of the team. Why not? The technology is almost free.

I learned once to never take anything for granted while on another's boat. No one likes a know it all chiming in all the time on how to do things better, but there is no harm in paying attention.

Once in Fort Lauderdale, one of my crew was restoring an Irwin 52 for his friend. He was living on it. I saw the progress of the boat week after week as I would often pick him and take him home after the races on my boat.

When he was all done, he invited us out for a proud sail. As we were motoring south towards the 17th st. bridge (the old one), I heard this shreaking grinding noise up forward. My instinct (wrong) was to run forward and "fend" off. I saw the bow pulpit folding into a ball as the green flashing navigational mark on the steel I-beam began to rake the entire side of the boat. The very large teak caprail was just exploding into splinters as we went by. The inner forestay then broke loose and whipped up into the rest of the rigging. I went right back to the cockpit until this slow motion collision concluded itself. We were still hung up on the marker a bit so we went to the side of the boat to try to clear it. He commented "see the light wasn't working" because the light wasn't working. But it was because the battery powering that light was now on his deck with acid sprayed all over his new stainless window trim rings.

Just then the bridge was opening up, and he continued through it acting as if it were all no big deal.

So, I don't assume anything. On another's boat, I check the depth ahead just like I do on mine. I have it on my phone, all the time everywhere I go. Not knowing for sure that there is clear water ahead just makes me uncomfortable. I suspect you know the exact feeling to which I refer. The Vestas guys clearly never had that feeling. And that is what I just don't understand.

When sailing single handed, I have never just gone down to my berth for a nap while underway.

Another nice thing is that you can be in the bar and start checking out the rest of the harbor or the next harbor right there on your phone.



JonEisberg said:


> Whoa, down boy... On a Saturday night, I sometimes have better things to do than fart around on sailing forums...
> 
> My apologies, but I generally come at this stuff from the perspective of a singlehanded sailor, one who accepts the _sole responsibility_ for everything that takes place aboard my boat... You know, the very thing you've been railing against the skipper of VESTAS WIND for not doing to your personal satisfaction...
> 
> ...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

capta said:


> As to paper charts being the 'let's all bow down to our god, the infallible paper chart' situation, I would be most interested to know whether the reef Vestus hit is well marked on the scale chart they would have been using for that segment of the voyage.
> I know when I was out in that part of the world, if there was little possibility of needing a detailed chart, I didn't carry one.
> Does anyone on here have charts for that area and how well marked is that reef on a chart one might be using to transit the area, without the intention of stopping at a port in that area?


A quick glance at the British Admiralty chart of _the entire freakin' Western Part of the Indian Ocean_ would have revealed the existence of the Cargados Carajos Shoals...

Hell, they're even mentioned in Jimmy Cornell's WORLD CRUISING ROUTES, as a potential refuge from bad weather on the route north from Mauritius...

Very difficult to imagine, how their existence was not noted before the boat turned north at Mauritius... or, before it left Cape Town... or, before they departed Alicante... or, while sitting one evening in the navigator's living room in the Netherlands, for that matter...

)

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/2420938-post52.html


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

miatapaul said:


> I have always thought it strange that most chart plotters will let you chart a plot straight across land. Seems it would not be hard to write into the code to warn when a plot goes within a certain distance of land. I mean heck my phone tells me even when I don't have navigation running when there is an accident ahead. I have only ever used old stuff, so I assumed that the newer units had built in warning that your plot is not going to work. Now that they can be hooked up to auto pilot it seems only wise so you don't just plow into a known rock. But I guess that would ruin all the fun we get out of laughing at the power boater that set a course and went down below for a little rollick in the stateroom and plowed into a marker or beach.


Careful what you wish for...

It's _really_ gonna be fun, when _everyone _ out there is relying on something like C-Map's 4D automatic "Easy Routing", which_"Automatically plots the shortest, safest route based on detailed chart data and user vessel information."_

Hmmm, mix in some heavy fog on a summer weekend, every boat out there running precisely the same route through a place like this, "personally selected" for them by their Electronic Concierge... Yeah, _THAT'S _ the ticket...


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> I believe you may be confusing a "defense of the captain" with a basic disagreement of your suggestion that he be "banned for life" from further participation in the sport...
> 
> )
> 
> Agreed, it certainly seems inexplicable, on so many levels, how this could have occurred. However, I have made mistakes/oversights just as dumb as some of those that contributed to this mishap, although fortunately having far less serious consequences... Should I therefore be prohibited from sailing again, or accepting future delivery work, as well?


I think we all make mistakes, but it is the outcome of those mistakes that should determine the consequences. Be it good fortune or whatever, the fact is that your mistakes (and mine) presumably did not involve driving a vessel on a known, well charted reef at 19 knots, correct?
As I said before, were the captain responsible for an equivalent disaster in many other sports (auto racing for instance) he would most likely be banned, don't you think? Had there been a fatality, would you think differently?
But as you've said, we must agree to disagree on this.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)




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## jacaranda2014 (Dec 19, 2014)

white74 said:


> Way too many google "experts" on this thread
> maybe one of the armchair sailors would care to go and help rimas navigate after they have finished teaching team vestas how to sail


They don't need to be taught how to sail but how to navigate and keep warm.


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## jacaranda2014 (Dec 19, 2014)

white74 said:


> these are not amateur sailors we are talking about
> many have logged more ocean hours than all of us combined it was a tragedy that it happened but time to get off the high horse and realize all sailors can make mistakes and some things just happen
> for those who think they are better sailors i will see you on the next volvo ocean team right?
> Don't tell me how much you know show me.
> Your actions speak so loud i can't hear a word you are saying


Things happen if you allow them to happen.


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