# water leaking in oil - Universal Diesel 5411



## stef9 (May 5, 2006)

I own a Catalina 27 sailboat with a Universal Diesel engine 5411 from 1980. 

Water was not coming out of the exhaust pipe anymore. After unplugging the exhaust manifold, I ran the engine but quickly saw emulsified water coming out of the breather. 
After having flushed all the oil out, I filled the block water cooling system using a garden hose with pressurized water. I saw water was coming out of the oil drain hole ... 

I have talked to few people and they are mostly pointing me to a potentially blown head gasket which lets raw water going to the crank case. 

1) Is this possble? What other problem could it be? 

2) Can a head gasket be repaired? 

3) I am trying to fix it myself ... Do I need to remove completly the valves to be able to remove the head? 

4) What should I be careful of? 

Thanks in advance for your help! 

Regards 

Stephane


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## sailandoar (Mar 20, 2006)

(1) could be head gasket, cracked block, ????
(2) Head gaskets as they are made today are usually replaced. The flatness of the head should be checked if the head gasket is blown and if need be it can be ground flat.
(3) Often the valves remain on the head but not always.
(4) just generaly take care.. a universal mechanic may have specific warnings.

I think Universal may be a division of Westerbeke.

http://www.westerbeke.com/

I saw parts and manuals listed.

**************************
Purchase a service/repair manual and a parts list, they are invaluable in doing repair/diagnosis.

However, any good mechanic should be able to help you determine the cause. If it is a cracked block from winter freeze etc, then you may not want to bother purchasing the manuals which will likley be $50 to $75. If it is just a head gasket and you do the work yourself, my SWAG (guess) would be (a) manuals: $60, (b) Gaskets: $75, (c) machine head flat (if needed) $100, (d) box of bandaids/ bottle of aspirin (generic) $5


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## capn_dave (Feb 17, 2000)

*I need some more info*

I noticed you live in California, so you probably wont have a problem with freezing water in the block. 
Did your engine have an anti-siphon loop installed between the raw water heat exchanger and the wet exhaust? 
Is your engine below the waterline?
Did you check the oil before you started the engine and was it ok?

The reason for these two questions is if you did not replace the vented loop water can siphon through the heat exchanger into the wet exhaust and then back into the exhaust valves filling your engine with water.

If none of the above applies, then it's probably a head gasket.

Good luck and fair winds

Cap'n Dave


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## capn_dave (Feb 17, 2000)

*I need some more info*

I noticed you live in California, so you probably wont have a problem with freezing water in the block. 
Did your engine have an anti-siphon loop installed between the raw water heat exchanger and the wet exhaust? 
Is your engine below the waterline?
Did you check the oil before you started the engine and was it ok?

The reason for these two questions is if you did not replace the vented loop water can siphon through the heat exchanger into the wet exhaust and then back into the exhaust valves filling your engine with water.

If none of the above applies, then it's probably a head gasket.

Good luck and fair winds

Cap'n Dave


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## awayocean (Oct 12, 2004)

Check the raw water pump.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

For the original problem (no cooling water at exhaust), check strainer (if present) or RWC impeller. These are much more likely to be the cause rather than a cracked head or failed gasket.
However if you ran a while with no water flow this could (due to overhheating)lead to more serious problems as previously described. 
If I interpret your post correctly to say that you had a water hose on the outlet of the exhaust manifold while draining the oil, you may well have put water into the crankcase through an open exhaust valve.
If the problem appears to be not serious, a couple of quick oil flushes and a fast change after running a while, after fixing the original water flow problem may be all that is required.
Good luck!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

A blown head gasket will without a doubt allow water to enter into the crankcase. If you have a moderate amount of mechanical aptitude you should have no difficulty replacing the gasket yourself with the aide of a service manual. The way you worded your question leads me to believe that you are a complete novice with regard to this kind of work. I would suggest that you find someone with engine work experience to assist you and help you gain experience so you can do it youself the next time. Also, use a digital camera and take lots of pictures to refer to when putting it back together. I am puzzled as to why you didn't have water coming out of the exhaust. If you have a heat exchanger your raw water shouldn't be coming into contact with the engine and if you don't have a heat exchanger, a blown head gasket or a cracked head shouldn't allow all of the water into the crankcase, therefore you should still have water running into the exhaust. You may have multiple problems here, My guess is you have a problem with your cooling system that allowed the engine to overheat and blow your head gasket. Don't be intimidated, it's really not that complicated and afterwards you will have this experience. Good Luck.


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## DeepFrz (May 9, 2006)

A corroded oil cooler can allow water into your oil as well, and may be the most likely culprit.

I agree with RhodesCaptain about getting an experienced person to help you. You obviously have no, or very little mechanical experience and a diesel engine is no place to start learning on your own.

hth
Phil


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## stef9 (May 5, 2006)

*Alright..*

I have removed the head, replaced the head gasket with one of my own which doesn't allow the water&oil to go through it to the head, put back the head and pressurized the block cooling system with water running from a garden hose.

Result: the water comes out flowing from the oil drain hole!!!

Cracked block?

Note: 
- the water pump, exhaust manifold are out of the picture


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## DeepFrz (May 9, 2006)

Check the oil cooler?


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## stef9 (May 5, 2006)

*Oil Cooler*

There isn't any oil cooler in this engine as I understand it.

Stephane


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## DeepFrz (May 9, 2006)

Ah ha, then that wouldn't be the problem...<g>

good luck...

Phil


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## stef9 (May 5, 2006)

*Research...My Universal 5411 engine has water in the oil but I can't find any cracks*

After doing some research, this article is the closest I have found that matches the problem I have:

==============
My Universal 5411 engine has water in the oil but I can't find any cracks in the head, manifold or block liner. Where else could the water be leaking into the oil?

Universal 5411 engines were raw-water-cooled, and so salt water gradually corroded the inside of the engine water jackets during the life of the engine. The first engines had a bolted-on blocking plate made from cast iron (on engines up to serial number 300072 part number #299363, on engines after serial number 300072 part number #299751) located over the water jacket port in the front of the block near the timing gears, that often rusted through... letting water leak into the timing chest and down into the oil pan. Later 5411 engines were fitted with a stainless steel blocking plate which can be retro-fitted to older engines (part number #301755). [Later fresh-water-cooled engines use a pressed-in frost plug instead of a blocking plate.] Check this plate in your engine to make sure it is not the source of the water leak (usually there is a corroded stain under the plate showing the path of the salt water down into the pan. If that's not the problem you'll have to pressure test the block with water or air to find the leak. You could also get it magnafluxed (magnetic crack checking) to see if you can find a crack which is causing the leak, but often cracks are inside water jackets and very hard to detect.

====================

I believe I will know very soon if this is the problem by removing the engine and opening the crank case to look inside...

Stephane


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Before you go to all that trouble, isolate and pressurize the water pump. If the seals, etc. in the water pump have 'gone' then its quite plausible that the water pump is leaking *into* the crankcase.

Block the exit of the pump, apply pressure (and a pressure gage) to the inlet .... pressurize to a ~ 10psi, close the pressurization valve ..... and watch for the 'decay' of pressure .... indicating that the pump is leaking internally into the crankcase. You can remove the pump from the engine and do this test on a workbench. 
I dont have that much experience with the 5411 ('the Pisser') but leaking water pump shaft seals is the usual first place to look when there is water in the crankcase .... then all the 'other stuff'. 

If you recently 'pickled' the engine with acid (a relatively bad idea, better to use an organic commercial boiiler descaler that doesnt EAT / dissolve the base metal) perhaps you bored a hole through a 'weak spot' in the internal casting of the block .... I sure hope not. 

Evalute the pump first ... its probably the highest probability of cause and easiest to fix. 

hope this helps.


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## stef9 (May 5, 2006)

Yes, saddly I have removed the water pump from the equation already.

Stephane


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## LyleRussell (May 3, 2006)

Did you properly torque down the head? Correct ft/lbs and tightening pattern? 

I don't know your skills so I apologize if I am insulting your intelligence.


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## stef9 (May 5, 2006)

Yes, I have verified that the water couldn't go from the water passage ways to the oil's through the head gasket I built to stop any flow of liquid between the head and the block.

Stephane


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## gregbasso (Aug 16, 2010)

*water leaking in oil universal 5411*

Hi Stef, looks like I am in about the same spot as you were back in 2006 with my 5411. Can you tell me where you found the leak. I am guessing the water jacket blocking plate at the front of the engine behind the gear case cover or a freeze out plug at the rear by the flywheel. Sure would like to know what you found when you took the thing apart.
Cheers, Greg. gregbasso"at"aol.com


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Gregbasso,

Welcome to SailNet!

You'll find a LOT of great info and experience here. However, it is considered bad form to resurrect old dead posts.... Do you realize that Stephane's post is 4½ years old?

Might I suggest starting a new post with specific information about your specific engine and the symptoms that you are experiencing?


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## gregbasso (Aug 16, 2010)

*form and soggy bread*

Not quite sure I agree with you about the quality of 'form'. However, I do agree with my grandmother who once told me...'if you don't cast your bread upon the water....you won't even get back soggy bread.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailnet-how-tos/39379-newcomers-get-more-out-sailnet.html

4th paragraph, 1st sentence...

'gotta go. I'm making bread


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## ericirvine (Aug 17, 2002)

The 5411 is a very similar block to mine, the 5416. 

These engines have a history of overheating causing the cylinder head to crack, allowing water to mix with the oil. I think the common location for the crack is right in the middle of the head, between the two combustion chambers. Since the 5411 is raw water cooled, the passageways are prone to clogging up due to salt deposits, making this engine even more prone to overheating and the head cracking problem. 

I am not sure if the 5411 has an externally mounted raw water pump or not, but if it does, it is driven off the injector pump camshaft. If the pump seals fail, water will enter the crankcase by getting past these seals.

HTH
Eric


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