# Sewing Machines



## Windkiller (Oct 6, 2010)

Okay here's a weird one
i want to do some cutting down of my own sails
I have a giant genoa from another boat I want to alter as well as eventually sewing my own sails
I know some of the older domestic machines(50s 60s 70s) can handle this work
Anybody have any experience with this or any reccomendations?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Somehow I doubt that many domestic machines can truly handle the multilayer areas of the clews, tacks and heads of a typical sail.. and of course there's much more to 'cutting down a sail' than simply altering the physical size.

Sailrite is a good source for this kind of equipment and techniques.

Sailrite.com | Home


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## Windkiller (Oct 6, 2010)

I appreciate the advice

I've actually read that some of the older machines can handle this sort of work and I know the corner patches require several layers
There's a big difference between older domestic machines and the machines made today
Mainly in the use of plastics and motor power
Also I realize there's more to sail design than simply cutting things down, though with a genoa that could be entirely possible.As it was a free genoa, it should be a good learnig experience regardless.
It's a ancient profession, but not rocket science.
I generally do most of my own repairs etc on boats cars and everything 

Did you have some insight on the various possibly appropriate domestic machines, like the pfaff 360s or the sinker 306ks ..even some of the older japanese kenmores can handle some of this stuff
I was hoping there would be some adventurous exprimental types out there


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

We have an old Japanese made Singer if that makes any sense. Very heavy duty with cast iron and even bronze bits. It does not seem up to the task of doing sails though, although it might work better if the sail was completely spread out on a flat surface. Needle penetrates fine but the mechanism for moving the sail along is not robust enough.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

If there was any old domestic machines up to the task then why where they not used by sailmakers back in the day when they were not so old. most old domestic machines are not zig zag and do not have a walking foot. my old '64 elna can sew dingy sails and spinnakers but not a big boat clew or tack. my Sailrite Lsz1 even has a hard time with the tack on 30 footer sails.


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## Windkiller (Oct 6, 2010)

All the machines I mentioned are zig zag
however I forgot to menion the neechi BU another strong zig zag machine

My boat isn't a dinghy...it is however similiarly sized.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

I have quite a bit of experience using a Sailrite LSZ1 on everything from building cushions, to canvas work, to sail repair. The major difference between a home machine and one that can handle multiple layers of heavy material is the walking presser foot. Most if not all home machines have only the feed dog on the bottom moving. On a commercial machine or any of the Sailrite machines, both the foot and dog move the material in unison. This is why home machines will skip stitches or break needles. It's not because they are cheap - it's because they are being used for a purpose for which they were not designed. One could install a monster motor on a home machine and have the same disastrous results - it's all in the foot. Just because it's old doesn't make it good, or even rugged. Sailrite machines are all metal and of superb quality backed with wonderful customer service.



> It's a ancient profession, but not rocket science.


True. It's aerodynamics. The old timers could only guess about what made a sail or a boat fast.

Cutting a sail down to fit the rig will not make it sail right if draft, entry, and overall shape is not considered.


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## Windkiller (Oct 6, 2010)

I appreciate your experience
i don't however plan to become a professional sailmaker so I won't need a machine that can handle hard usage on a daily basis
Domestic machines can't stand up to this sort of daily hard usage. 
That is why they were not used by professional sailmakers
The stronger ones can however do these sorts of jobs on occasion
It's kind of like saying you can't take your car tires off unless you have a hoist and an air gun

Also I think there's no harm in trying something, that is how one learns...that is how professionals learn..I can do many things well that many people think they have to pay big $$ to have other people do.
I researched, experimented and then tried it and got better with further experimenting
I can't afford a sailrite machine so I won't be buying one.this does not mean I can't afford to sail or fix sails.
As to sail design...it's physics
I can get the specs for the sails I need and I can read books! yup!

I think the "oldtimers" knew a thing or two about sail design

And just because something is modern doesn't mean it's designed better...that's for sure

Perhaps I should've pointed out I was making smaller sails to avoid the unecessary debate
Thanks


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

Sorry if you took offense to my recommendation. Just passing it on as requested since I have the experience mentioned in the original post.

It appears that you will pursue with an older home machine. If so, I'd recommend increasing the presser foot down pressure. That may give you enough oomph to move the material. I had limited luck doing this when I attempted to make sailcovers using a home Singer machine. 

Just passing on some hard learned lessons.

Happy sewing.


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## Windkiller (Oct 6, 2010)

Not offended, just not completely agreeing
No doubt I shall learn some more hard lessons of my own!


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

I'm bidding on the neechi bu as well.. let's not run it up too high....


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## JedNeck (Sep 22, 2011)

I have a 50s Japanese machine (Emdeco, I think) that is tough as nails that I used to repair a sail for my dinghy...it did fine in two layers but I had feed issues...I had to kinda pull the fabric along like a table saw. Made for some not so perfect stitches...but I got pretty good at feeding it in short order and would probably have to point out the mistakes.

I doubt it would do multiple layers though and I killed a couple of needles...

Sometimes this place is like horseville...full of neighsayers...

But...

If there's a will...


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Sabreman said:


> ... The major difference between a home machine and one that can handle multiple layers of heavy material is the walking presser foot. Most if not all home machines have only the feed dog on the bottom moving. On a commercial machine or any of the Sailrite machines, both the foot and dog move the material in unison. This is why home machines will skip stitches or break needles. It's not because they are cheap - it's because they are being used for a purpose for which they were not designed.


Bingo.

Some of the domestic machines from the 50s and 60s had a walking foot available as an option, but often didn't do zigzag stitching, which is a necessity if you're sewing sails. So, find a machine that has both zigzag capability and a walking foot.

No matter what you buy, take it to a local sewing machine shop to be tuned. It will save you a ton of frustration.

In fact, START shopping at your local sewing machine shop. It may be hard to believe in our hyperconnected world of ebay and craigslist, but sometimes the best deals aren't online. I took our old shaky lightweight singer in for a tune-up, and left with a Juki with a walking foot for $50. The shopkeeper had had the Juki for years. Nobody wanted it. Everybody wants used Singers.

Before you try to rework your genny, practice sewing on some scrap sailcloth. In fact, find an old sail and make a duffel bag out of it. You'll pick up the technique you need before you work on your genny.


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## MARC2012 (Mar 17, 2008)

I use an older sonata(singer) & it sews everything except the reinforced areas.Has a walking foot but seldom use it.Salrite does not make their machines but can not remember who does.marc


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I see no harm in cutting up an old sail to experiment and learn on. If the sail is old, and the cloth is thin, then a sturdy, domestic machine might be able to handle it. I used a domestic machine to re-do some worn stitching on a couple of jibs from my old Coronado 25.

The head, tack and clew will be the toughest as already mentioned.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

A couple of years ago I made a trysail from a Sailrite kit using my home Singer. It worked fine on all the triple stitched single seams and about 4 layers of 8 oz. cloth before balking so I wound up doing a lot of hand sewing. Modern home-duty machines are obviously not up to the job. Then I bought a used Pfaff 130 for working on sails and put a heavy-duty motor on it. In going over my hand-sewed seams on the sail above, it had no problem. I put a sunscreen on my working jib which required going through the corner patches+ the Sunbrella cloth. This winter I plan on cutting down a used (still crispy) mainsail I got last year to remove the roach, add two reef points, and cut down the area to make it a better size for a spare heavy weather sail. I keep the Pfaff right on the boat for sail repairs. It is small enough to transport easily and works well just turning the crank by hand which is WAY better and faster than using a leather palm and needle! The only things you need to do by hand are the grommets and sewing in boltropes.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

> Salrite does not make their machines


True. But they take each one and modify it adding several patented items (can't recall which).

When I first started sewing sailcovers on our last boat, I used a home Singer that skipped stitches, broke needles, and went out of sync twice requiring repair. I finally went with the Sailrite machine and haven't looked back. It has no problem going through 7 layers of cloth; the walking foot is the key. When I used the Singer, I had to pull the material through to keep the stitches in sync as another poster found.

Some posters seem to have a problem with the Sailrite machines. Not sure why but they're rugged with excellent service, parts, and supplies behind them. Not the cheapest machine, but the $ that I've saved over the years has paid for it several times over.

Cut up an old North Norlam genoa yesterday and made large tote bags as Christmas gifts. Good use for a dead sail.


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

I bought an old Kenmore, sorry I'm at work otherwise I'd share the model #, and it has the
replaceable cams for diff stitches. It's a beast, as it's all metal and weighs a ton, however
it worked wonderfully for the interior cushions I just made. Some pretty tough material,
vinyl, suede and upholstery, so I'm sure one of those would work really well for sails. I
found mine at our local area "sewing machine" store. Most towns tend to have one of these.
And I bought mine for a whopping, $35.00. Of course, it's, what, 40 years old, but they
had reconditioned it from top to bottom and is now probably comparable to the $5-600
machines on the market.

Similar to this;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-HEA...811?pt=BI_Sewing_Machines&hash=item4160bc13cb

Just an idea....good luck.


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## johnnyandjebus (Sep 15, 2009)

A great thread 

To the OP, I have nothing new to add here, I just want to re-enforce what has already been said.

I was where you are two winters ago. I needed a new mainsail cover and wanted to make it myself. I have an old kenmore sewing machine(all metal drive) and used it with success. Since then I have worked on several projects including side panels for a buddy's fishing boat and window panels for a friend's cruiser among others.
I now have two boat covers sitting at home, belonging to friends who want me to make replacements. The same friends who I did the original work for. Given they are asking for more the kenmore and myself must have done an adequate job 

I feel at this point I need to make a decision, buy a better machine now and be happy or wait and not take on more work, both for myself and others. I will be buying, I enjoy the hobby too much to wait and have learned that canvas and sail work is not a passing fade for me. It is something I enjoy and hope to get much better at it.

As to my old kenmore;
The old machine will penetrate 5-6 layers of sunbrella or sailcloth but is really not up to the job;
- Lack of a walking foot is key here, many of the mistakes I have made, in hind sight, are a result of this.
- Better motor control. The kenmore is pretty much on or off. Slowing down for the tough parts is a problem.
- Wider stitch pattern. The kenmore has a fairly narrow stitch pattern which can lead to "bunching" of the cloth. Not a major problem but cosmetically it looks bad. A bigger problem for sail making and repair.

So are you wasting your time looking for an old(cheap) machine? IMHO not at all. Most of the sewing on a sail is between 2-4 layers off sail cloth and my old kenmore can punch thru that. For the thicker areas you can hand stitch if needed. An old machine will not give you professional results but it is a place to start.
I would recommend you start with something a little easier than trying to re-cut your sails, if for no other reason than if you get it wrong you are out a mainsail.
- Perhaps find an old sail someone wants to throw out and play with it? Take it a part and re-sew it, no re-cutting. 
- Buy several yards of sail cloth and sunbrella and just play. 
- Spend time on the sailrite website and youtube. They have great videos walking you thru just about anything you need to know from needle selection to installing windows to repairing sails.

The re-cutting of sails is an unknown to me. I have an old mainsail that I recently replaced and would love to tear it apart, re-cut and assemble, just for the fun of it. But how much to cut? Where is the sail stretched? does the sail stretch evenly along all seams? I would think not.
Putting the choice of machine aside does anyone have any thoughts on this for both me and the OP?

John


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## Deric (Feb 3, 2008)

My first sewing attempts were horrible. I wanted to go least expensive; used a Singer home machine, not tuned, no walking anything. I had problems all over and was ready to quit sewing from that point on.

The change:
Got a 111 machine from sailrite, asked them question, watched videos on how to sew using their modifications.

The result:
Beautiful 12 x 12 canvass for the home deck.

Lesson learned:
Need the correct tool for the specific job. I should have headed what I knew -- but did not practice.

Best and enjoy the challenge.


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

johnnyandjebus said:


> The re-cutting of sails is an unknown to me. I have an old mainsail that I recently replaced and would love to tear it apart, re-cut and assemble, just for the fun of it. But how much to cut? Where is the sail stretched? does the sail stretch evenly along all seams? I would think not.
> Putting the choice of machine aside does anyone have any thoughts on this for both me and the OP?
> 
> John


Get the book "the Sailmakers Apprentice" by Emiliano Marino

Has sail design and theory as well as construction and repair technique

And a "walking foot" is a $35 add on for most of the H/D machines mentioned..


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## Windkiller (Oct 6, 2010)

Wow
This is good stuff
The many varied and often conflicting opinion is inspiring and full of good information, huzzah forums!

I got on a sewing forum that has been really helpful. http://sewing.patternreview.com/SewingDiscussions) that lead me to a site that sells walking feet to fit old machines for about 12.95 plus shipping.
There's also been some good and experienced opinion there on the strongest older domestic machines.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

+1 on _Sailmaker's Apprentice_. It has more than you ever wanted to know about sailmaking. As I mentioned above, I'm about to cut the roach off and decrease the area of a good used sail I got last year, the purpose being to create a smaller sail in between the regular main and the trysail. This should save a lot of wear and tear on the main when the wind is blowing too hard to keep it up without reefing (which is very often). It will also move the center of effort forward, making it easier to get the helm balanced in 15k+ conditions. Many sails are constructed to maximize light wind performance, hence, a large roach but this quickly works against you when the wind pipes up. Removing it makes the sail better for heavier wind use. I plan on just using a chalk line to make a straight line along the leech, reducing the sail area at the foot by around 12" which should take off about 40 square feet of sail area and still leave the sail within reach of the outhaul cable. Doing this requires removing all the hardware- grommets and headboard, and then reinstalling but with a little effort, I'll have a good mid-sized sail for 25% the cost of a new one and 1/2 the cost of a Sailrite kit with a lot less work.


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

You may want to check on a portable Consew 206R straight stitch machine or 206RB(I think) for zigzag. I saw a guy and his wife making a new enclosure at the marina for their boat and noticed their machine which looked just like the Sailrite unit. when i asked them they told me it was the same exact unit as sailrite lsz1 and it was half the price. Sure enough I looked on ebay and typed in Portable Consew 206RB and there it was. found it for under 400 bux. is it in fact the same unit as the sailrite machine...i am not sure but i did see one in action going through several layers of sunbrella and backing and seemed to do ok...i am not a sail maker and dont even know how to sew, but like the op had an interest in a few projects on my boat. hope this helps


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

If you are looking for the cheapest option then a manual cast iron Singer is the way to go. 

They do not do zig zag which is not as big a disadvantage as many people think. Use a denim needle and they will sew 4 to 6 layers of cloth.

I used one for 7 years and repaid its cost many times over with covers scoops and sail repairs.

But I often wished for a Sailrite with the walking foot.


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## Cruiser2B (Jan 6, 2011)

TQA said:


> They do not do zig zag which is not as big a disadvantage as many people think. Use a denim needle and they will sew 4 to 6 layers of cloth.


as i said in my previous post I dont know how to sew at all, but from what i have read the zigzag pattern used on sails is to allow the material to have a certain amount of give, if you will, so it wont tear the material when in use. Is this true? I dont really know thats why I ask


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## TejasSailer (Mar 21, 2004)

A used Pfaff 130, often called semi-industrial and popular with some sailors, can be found for about $200 - $250 on craigslist. Not only are machines often less expensive on craigslist than eBay, you can see them, test them and avoid shipping. I got one for $225. While a very nice machine, I hardly ever use it and instead use a Singer 111W155, compound walking-foot sewing machine, also via craigslist for $325. If you're willing to hang out on craigslist, you can probably do better. If you have an iPad and want to search several nearby craigslists with one query, try the Craigslist pro app.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/craig...310947683?mt=8

To search all of craigslist via a browser try this link.

search all craigslist | allofcraigs.com - Search ALL of Craigslist

Assuming that sewing machine portability is not important, you might want to look on craigslist for a made in US, Japan or Germany industrial, compound walking-foot -- has both drop-feed (bottom-feed) and needle-feed (top-feed) with an alternating presser-foot -- sewing machine. Very nice to have features are reverse (some early machines do not), a large bobbin and a servo motor. Unless you want to do sail work, zig-zag might not be too important. The following links might be helpful, and do click on "show more" on the YouTube video.

Sewing machine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Walking foot sewing machine in action - YouTube

Sailrite is a good source for materials, notions and tools, and also for video tutorials. The Sailrite sewing machines are reported to be made in Taiwan or China and do not seem to have a good reputation with folks who sew canvas for a profession.

I think that the following books are worth consideration, especially the Casey Book:

The Complete Canvasworker's Guide by Jim Grant
Canvaswork & Sail Repair by Don Casey
The Big Book of Boat Canvas by Karen S. Lipe

Beware that the number of layers you might want to sew can mount-up quickly. Sewing a simple mesh sun-screen with webbing at the corners with D-rings there were four layers of mesh and four layers of webbing, resulting in the maximum that could be gotten under the 111W155 foot. The hem was only folded back once and the corners mitered. Had the hem been folded in on itself again without mitered corners, the number of layers of mesh would have been eight.

For clarification, I am a beginning sewer -- have completed about 10 projects -- with the Singer 111W155 that was acquired via craigslist with none of the nice to have features. The clutch motor has been replaced with a $125 servo for speed control and safety.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Windkiller said:


> Wow
> This is good stuff
> The many varied and often conflicting opinion is inspiring and full of good information, huzzah forums!
> 
> ...


Can you post the site that sells the walking foot attachments?


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## Windkiller (Oct 6, 2010)

Yep. Visit Sew-Classic's feet identification page to see what kind of feet you need
Sew-Classic Blog: Identify the Type of Feet for Your Sewing Machine

then get one of
Low shank walking foot
Low Shank ZigZag Walking Foot 5mm

High shank walking foot
High Shank Walking Foot

I believe there's many other types available for other machines, the above are just a couple of examples


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

I've been sewing everything from shoes and leather to marine canvas and sail repair for about twenty years for myself and as a means of gainful employment.
as for machines, I've used and owned many many different brands and models, they each have their own strengths and shortcomings. Depending on the working conditions and intended use/project one wil be preferable to the other, so basically there are alot of machines that'l "get-r-done".
As per the topic of the machines ability to effectively sew multiple thicknesses of material.
The issue is not so much a problem with the robustness to penetrate the thickness. As much as the ability to set the "Drag" on the bobbin and/or the top thread in a typical lockstitch machine (as opposed to a bobbinless machine or chainstitch) Without the ability to set the drag you cannot sew a nice stitch and get a snarle on the stitch on the top or bottom of the stitched work. 
The other issues are the amount of travel of the "pressor foot" has to accept the thickness and still be able to deliver a decent length stitch. As a short stitch is less desirable, and often the household machines are designed to deliver a higher number of stitches per inch.
Another issue that effects the drag is the capacity of the machine to use a thick enough thread guage , as with sumbrella ,for example you would want a heavier thread as well as needle than say making curtains. different machines have different limitations.
I currently have several older singer machines of various models,a 29-4, a couple 600's,a sailright LSz1,a husqvarna,several Landis macines,Mckays,champions ect. 

I never cared for the juki's or the pfaff's. 
there are alot of machines out there that can sew.


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## Windkiller (Oct 6, 2010)

Okay a question for sll the sewing machine experts!
Besides throat and motor size, what are the main differences between the Pfaff 130 and the Pfaff 138 for sewing small boat sails(under 20') ?
Thanks


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## Diamondjet (Apr 8, 2010)

*40 year old Bernina*

We purchased an older Bernina to sew sailbags and motor covers and have used Sunbrella and sailcloth. Haven't sewn more than 3 layers (exc by mistake). We had a couple of older machines that couldn't do it for various reasons but so far the Bernina cuts it. Might try a storm jib next.


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## Marcvet (Mar 23, 2008)

*Sewing Machine*

Windkiller,
years ago i bought a Pfaff 130. I've never looked back. they are out of production but you can find quite a few in various states of repair on eBay.
Marcvet


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## Windkiller (Oct 6, 2010)

Cool
i just picked up a Pfaff 130 a week back from a retired sewing machine mechannic for $30 I've since replaced the Pfaff small black plastic hand wheel/flywheel with a steel spoked singer model that works well (extra momentum) In the picture the belt is hanging down cause I was trying it with the handcrank for fun. I just had on option on picking up a working , maintained 138 for about 1/3 the going price and wondered if it was significantly better or just a bit longer and faster. Maybe I'll pick it up as an invertment as they seem to hold they're value really well. But i was curious as to opinion


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## Windkiller (Oct 6, 2010)

Anybody else know of the differences between the 130 and 138


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## mikieg (Oct 29, 2010)

i have a singer 306w. this bad boy sews leather and pretty much anything i can fit under the foot. a walking foot would be nice yes. but with good feed technique you would be shocked as to what a good ole singer will do. i also have a singer 348. both machines are 40 plus years old, and guess what.. with a change of a cam, i can sew any pattern i wish. several layers of dacron being sewed with a waxed string are not nearly as bad as sewing 7 or 8 layers of 1000 cordura with zippers etc. here are some things some of those whimpy old singers will sew...


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## mikieg (Oct 29, 2010)

all gear you see is hand made by one of those old worn out domestic grandma machines. some designs are up to 7 layers of 1000 denier cordura plus 2 layers of nylon webbing as well as a zipper!
the only thing my machine does not have is a walking foot. again, with good technique, not needed. if i were going into the sail making biz, i would opt for a bigger machine for larger throat capacity.


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## mikieg (Oct 29, 2010)




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## Windkiller (Oct 6, 2010)

Wow
Who're you hunting??

I've heard good things about the singer 306 there's a few in town i've been keeping an eye on, a K and an M model. The M model comes with instructions in Italian!
I sure hope you're in the army!
haha


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## Windkiller (Oct 6, 2010)

oh and of course
Great work on the gear!!
I'm gonna start of with some cockpit cushions and then move on to some restiching of an old jib.


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## mikieg (Oct 29, 2010)

we make tactical gear for military operators, law enforcement officers, and upstanding patriotic citizens. mostly for snipers. but door kickers as well. the machines we use are pretty fair. the ones they have at sail rite are damned nice. but not necessary. 
i have looked at sewing my own sails in the past. it will eventualy happen. 
i did pick up a nice singer 99 for $10. i dont need it, i just hate to see it get trashed after being around more than 60 years. there was some woman that owned it decades ago. she prolly made all the clothes for her family with it. i find it disrespectful to discard something like that that has served so well for so long. it looks nice on my shelf.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

mikieg said:


> and upstanding patriotic citizens..


Who determines THAT criteria? Is there an application form? Or do you mean that military operators and police officers AREN'T "upstanding patriotic citizens"? I am confused.

See, injecting your sociopolitical stance into a discussion that doesn't require it just befuddles people like me.


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## mikieg (Oct 29, 2010)

haha. yes sir. allow me to expand on that a bit. true there are many a soldier and police officer that are not upstanding. what i meant to convey to the lay reader is that we make gear for civilians as well. of course we reserve the right to refuse customers if we feel that they are not upstanding, or are a domestic threat.
looks like you are canadian. you would not be elligable for these types of products as our government has a law banning the export of high speed tactical equipment to other countries. 
i hope this has answered your questions.
i really enjoyed your blog. the plug was not shameless. your product is worth sharring.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

mikieg said:


> haha. yes sir. allow me to expand on that a bit. true there are many a soldier and police officer that are not upstanding. what i meant to convey to the lay reader is that we make gear for civilians as well. of course we reserve the right to refuse customers if we feel that they are not upstanding, or are a domestic threat.
> looks like you are canadian. you would not be elligable for these types of products as our government has a law banning the export of high speed tactical equipment to other countries.
> i hope this has answered your questions.
> i really enjoyed your blog. the plug was not shameless. your product is worth sharring.


Good clarification, mikie.

But now I have another question- what kinda unexportable- high-speed-tactical- threat to national security kinda stuff can you build with a damn sewing machine?

Us Canadians are okay with not being able to buy your fancy gear. It seems like we don't need it anyway.

Longest recorded sniper kills - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Canada- quietly kicking ass without fanfare since before we were a country.

BTW, glad you like the blog.


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## mikieg (Oct 29, 2010)

actually, you did need the gear. it was our ammo that was used for the shot you are referring to. canadian .50bmg doesnt have the velocity and kinetic energy to make that shot. oh and one more thing, we also made the rifle. rob is a really cool guy. but after taking 2 sighter shots he finally made it on the third. he will tell you that he was lucky and could never do it again.
sorry you seem to be defensive about these non topics. we can debate this in private if you wish. but be warned this is my area of specialty. i would never debate with you about boats as i believe this is your specialty.
until then, lets get back to talkin about sewing machies and how we can use them to fix our aging dacron, shall we.


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## Windkiller (Oct 6, 2010)

Good idea!
I think, ideally, if the world made more sewing machines and less weapons we'd all be better off.
(and that's the entire world not an particular part of it) (I by the way am a traditional bowyer, archer, fencer etc. ,I find these things exciting, but that's another story) 

We won't even start into the historic burning of large white dwellings....

I've decide not to go pick up the Pfaff 138 after all, not enough room for another big thing and the 130 should do the trick for me right now despite the slightly shorter stich width


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## smillinjack (Aug 13, 2009)

We bought a Necchi 503 and it did most of the work on our sails. If you are working on big sails get a heavy duty walking foot that can take 3/8 inch of fabric. Tons of machines on Ebay.
The Necchi is all cast and very heavy built in 1960. Even if it can't do all the thick stuff ,you can always hand sow. Good luck.


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

Speaking of grandmas machine.... I've been bidding on e-bay on HD singers, necchis, universals, toyotas, pfaffs and kenmores...not having much luck...

Wife looks over my shoulder and says "what you bidding on ?", I say an old heavy all steel sewing machine and she says we have one up in the attic, she got from her aunt 30-40 years ago  

I dug around and found a Kenmore Tri Span 88 auto zig zag from the late 50's....plugged it in and it ran...Took it to the SM repair shop for a clean and tune and new belt and will pick it up tomorrow... 

I brought in a section of "head" from a torn up sail for testing and the tech says machine should have no problem going thru the reinforcement layers...

Should be under a hundred bucks including parts...


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## mikieg (Oct 29, 2010)

windkiller. that is so funny. i used to build binghams take down recurve designs. i love traditional archery. are you going to Kzoo in a few weeks?
i always said, "if the bad guys would agree to give up their guns, i would agree to the same.". i really like those odds!
as of yet, they dont see it the same as i.


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## Windkiller (Oct 6, 2010)

Funny indeed
Do you mean Kalamazoo...I'm a little far away (Vancouver BC)
and yes that nobody has any weapons deal only works if well NOBODY has any weapons. Still one can be hopeful
I'm derailing my own thread here but I make one piece all wood bows with no backings(though I have laminated bamboo backings onto hickory, done handle msplices etc) here's an osage steamed bent recurve 50lbs (on the tiller and on the floor) and a yew 50lbs longs bow with antler nocks) most of the bows I shoot are lighter
(sorry sailnet!
My mom has a featherweight she used to sew her wedding dress (too weak)and an old shuttle bobbin treadle, Those older kenmores come reccomended for heavier work on the sewing forum. I've basically taught myself how to fine tune the Pfaff 130 so I'll stick with that for now, Has a good reputation and you can still maintain it yourself...like an older car.
my apologies for the archery pictures


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

The nice thing about the Pfaff 130 is that it can easily be stowed on the boat where it's needed. I built a heavy-duty wood case for mine with a center brace to lock it in place. It fits nicely in a locker. The weak point on most of the cases you can buy are the hinge connection points which are only designed for stresses of normal home use. They are not at all adequate for shipping or bouncing around on in the locker on a boat.


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## mikieg (Oct 29, 2010)

nice work windkiller! are you on the leather wall forum? you can find me there and on the widow wall forum.
i love traditional archery as much as i love sailing!


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## Windkiller (Oct 6, 2010)

Yes 
Sadly I haven't found a way to combine them..too many lines on a my litle boat to shoot arrows..and then at what? water plays hell with feathers too
Making one piece wooen bows is very fascinating
I think it might be the most extreme example of wood "working"
Can't think of any other example where wood bends to that extreme and returns time and time again


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

OK, got my machine back from the shop cleaned tuned and tested...

Older all steel Kenmore Tri Span 88 auto zig zag (no cams needed)



Got some High Tenacity Dacron sail thread off e-buy and ran a few practice stiches...
Here is 4 layer of Dacron sail cloth (6 where it's flipped over) and machine went thru it like cotton...



On the heaviest tip of the head of this "practice sail" I had to start the needle on the down stroke, but powered thru all the layers with an acceptable stitch...



I still need much more practice before I attach my sails (mostly reinforcement stitching and some small patching) so I'm going to start by redoing my cabin cushions (duck)making a tiller cover (sunbrella) and then the dacron sails...

I found the machine in the attic, did a $100 tune up, but these type can be found for < $300 on e-bay...


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## mikieg (Oct 29, 2010)

like i said, walking foot is damned nice, but not absolutely needed. the thing that makes the older machines desirble and more powerful is the fact that ALL the gears within are metal. very nice machine indeed sir!


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

Yeah, been playing with it for awhile now..starting to get the hang of it but I have a long way to go...Just practice, practice, practice, I'm sure...

Now if I could just find some of those "pre threaded" needles...


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## MARC2012 (Mar 17, 2008)

Squidd,you might ck out basting/bias tape.I found it very helpful in finishing edges.marc


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## TejasSailer (Mar 21, 2004)

Squidd,

Have you tried a needle threader? Most fabric or sewing stores have them.

Needle threader - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

Cool, another trip to the fabric store... I used to dread going in there with the wife...kinda like hanging around the lingerie dept. at K-Mart...

But I've been in there so many times now for seam ripper and thread cutter and velcro and colored threads they are starting to know me by name...

I've seen those wire needle threaders for "hand needles", (of which I have a few ...some curved and some really heavy duty ones and a "sewing palm" for pushing thru leather, webbing and other thick heavy stuff) but not sure they would work on smaller "machine" needle eye...

But I'll go check it out...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Just started putting my Pfaff 130 to work "dumping the hump" from a spare sail I got last year. Have cut it down by about 40 sq. ft, shortened the foot and the luff and eliminated the roach completely (actually cut a negative roach as suggested in _Sailmaker's Apprentice _). Will add 2 extra reef points and a cunningham as well. Just ripped all the old patches off and cut a new leech profile. Should be fun to sew it all back together. Am going to do away with the battens until the wind proves I really need them. According to the above mentioned book, they are dispensable on a cruising sail. Battens sure are a PITA.


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## mikieg (Oct 29, 2010)

i really need to put some reefing points in my main.


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## safira (May 10, 2010)

Well guys, here is my 3 cents worth, The older machines seem to work better as to working with multi layer materials for the simple fact they have all metal parts and are built sturdier then the modern ones ... so you seem to be on the right track there .... and yes the presser foot is a big concern when moving the material ....
When I made the sails for my 40 foot ketch I worked with a person from a sailloft that was overseeing the whole project of me makeing the sails, and I did learn a tremendous amount about design. One of the tricks they showed me was when doing multi-layers was to use a lube on the needle, such as vaseline, it does help a considerable amount. Or you can use a hand palm and needle for that part of the sail.
Another simple method that I have found is that the use of liquid stitch is great when doing the layout of a sail to hold the seams before sewing them, just use a very thin coating. It dries in about 1/2 to a hour. you can find this at walmart but I would check the dollar stores first and you can save some if you do. 
hope this is helpful and happy sailing


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## mikieg (Oct 29, 2010)

thanks for sharing. i never considered using a lube on the needle. does this cut down on thread breaking? the thread we use on tactical gear is a modern type. it is so strong that if you try to break it by hand, it will actually cut you!


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

I had heard about "bee waxing" the thread which would have about the same effect as lubing the needle..


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks for the tip on lube for the needle. Will try it. I have found that adjusting the upper thread tension is the critical factor in avoiding the upper thread from getting shredded and breaking. The tension needs to be tight and if the thread rubs on anything it will wear through. I had to file down the chrome end plate where the thread was rubbing, wearing through on the way down to the needle. I find it necessary to adjust the thread tension when proceeding through layers on patches, tightening down a bit as a lot of layers are sewn. Using just the right size needle is also a factor. #19 and #20 needles seem to work best for #92 thread, #18 needle for #62 thread. Too-small a needle will break the thread quickly. For holding pieces together, I use the double sided tape from Sailrite which works really well. It's fairly inexpensive and saves a lot of grief. They sent a couple of rolls of this with a trysail kit last year and I've been using it ever since.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I stopped using a roach and battens decades ago. I heard that 80% of sail repairs are from batten pockets. Two boats stopped at Fanning Island when I was there. Both had full length battens. When I asked them how they liked them they said "Battens suck." One was the guy I sold my last battenless boat to. After he had sailed on to New Zealand and back to BC, I asked him again, and again he said "Battens still suck."
I have been taking used mains, cutting the roach off, and sewing the cut off piece back on, inverted, to leave a straight roach with the seams staggered. Full length tape up the leech also works well. A sewing machine is one of the best tools you can have aboard.


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## TejasSailer (Mar 21, 2004)

Here is a link to to thead lubrication.

Sewing Machine Thread Lubricator - Magnetic Oiler

and the lubricant.

Sewer's Aid Lubricant - Sewing Thread Lubrication & More


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Brent Swain said:


> I stopped using a roach and battens decades ago. I heard that 80% of sail repairs are from batten pockets. Two boats stopped at Fanning Island when I was there. Both had full length battens. When I asked them how they liked them they said "Battens suck." One was the guy I sold my last battenless boat to. After he had sailed on to New Zealand and back to BC, I asked him again, and again he said "Battens still suck."
> I have been taking used mains, cutting the roach off, and sewing the cut off piece back on, inverted, to leave a straight roach with the seams staggered. Full length tape up the leech also works well. A sewing machine is one of the best tools you can have aboard.


The sail I'm working on had a folded leech edge so I cut it leaving enough to just fold back over again. It had no leech line so will put one in. Took _Sailmaker's Apprentice_ advice and went past a straight leech, making it concave 6" at 45% of leech length. He has a section called "Dump the Hump." The sailcloth I cut off made 2 more reef patches, a full length reef-point strip, additional corner patches (made them stronger) and a cunningham patch with cloth to spare. It will be neat to see how this sail works. I'm hoping it will serve as my working main with the bigger one for light wind and the trysail for when it really blows. Am tempted to sew the pockets back on so I can use them to really stiffen the sail on occasion.


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