# 1981 - Catalina 30' or Sabre 30'?



## Švejk (May 7, 2014)

I've started my search for an inexpensive first boat. The requirements are it has to have a galley and a head as we would like to spend weekends aboard. I realize there's nothing more expensive than a cheap boat and I'm not looking to sail the horn just yet. After pouring through pages of yachtworld I'm going to look at three boats next weekend. I'll preface this with a surveyor will definitely be hired.

All three boats were produced in 1981 with fin keels. From what I've read the Catalina 30 is the "Toyota Camry" of the boating world as far as production numbers (okay, Chevy, but I don't know of a model as popular as the Camry). The Sabre is said the be the better built boat and it's unfortunate they're still not in [the sailboat] business. Here are the choices:

Catalina 30, Standard Rig - Probably my least favorite. The boat is on the hard and seems to need a lot of TLC with a host of fixes from bimini stitching to a non-operating VHF. She leaks but the broker wasn't sure if it was from the portlets but advised all the deck hardware needed re-bedding. If I wanted a project boat this would be it.

Catalina 30, Tall Rig - This boat looks the most attractive at this point. It seems to be cared for quite well with a reinforced deck at the step mast, bimini, dodger and a host of other equipment. The tall rig is said to be a better in light air. I think that's called July and August on the Chesapeake.

Sabre 30 Mk II - Seems a good boat but is the prop walk as bad on all boats? I don't plan on motoring astern for too far but that just means more of a challenge when I do and honestly it's the only minus I can find. Sails are fair to good and I'd need to spend some money on equipment just to bring her up to that of the tall rig.

Does the Sabre offer anything I'm missing? Other than the mast compression and the Catalina smile is there anything else to be wary of on a Catalina?


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Sabre is definitely still in business...they just make powerboats and no more sailboats. The Catalina 30 is out of production too...and has been for over a decade now.


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## mr_f (Oct 29, 2011)

Random thoughts. Take them for what they are worth. 

I may have misunderstood you, but Sabre is still in business and their customer support is excellent (although they are currently not producing sailboats). 

My opinion is prop walk is a useful tool. Once you know your boat, you will use it to your advantage maneuvering in tight spaces. 

Sabres of that era are notorious for problems with rot in the mast step.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Are you going to day sail and cruise...or race? 

If you are mostly doing the first, then the Catalina Tall Rig should suit you well. Anything that is over 30 years old will have issues, it just depends on how well they were maintained by the previous owners (most likely plural with a 30 year old boat.

Catalina made over 10,000 30's so they must have done something right. If well maintained they are pretty much bullet proof. Sail fairly well, will handle weather, and one of the roomiest boats in that range down below.

There is a Catalina 30 owners group that is very active and you can find advise on most anything from fixes to refinements. Catalina is still in business and you can actually talk to people that will answer your questions. Between the factory and Catalina Direct you can find most anything.

Lots of nice boats out there, but as in dating....you will have to kiss a few frogs along the way.

Good Luck


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Look at the hidden parts of the boat for quality differences. In 1981 Catalina was taking serious shortcuts with through hulls (they will be pieces of pipe glassed into the hull, it looks like a little volcano) and the finish on hidden areas of fiberglass was terrible. The mast wiring was glassed directly into the cabin top, making replacement difficult. 

I had a 1984 Catalina 25 and it sailed pretty nicely, but my 1986 Pearson is much more nicely made. 

I've not looked closely at a Sabre, but they have excellent reputation. The user manual on the Sabre 30 is a beautiful thing, it includes helpful details that other manufacturers never list, like the locations and types of core materials found in the deck and hull.

Quickly looking at PHRF shows that the Sabre should be a hair faster than the Catalina 30 tall.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

I would go with the tall rig Catalina. Sabers are very good boats, but for a family cruising the Catalina has more room. And for a new boat owner there is a lot more information available to help guide repairs, and of course Catalina is still in business and still supports their older boats. 

The Saber is a little more performance oriented, and has a very good build quality reputation, so I wouldn't exclude it. 

At the end of the day certainly have a good look at them both, and go with whichever makes you feel better. Assuming they are both in decent shape both would be very good boats.


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

I really don't know anything about Sabre's other than the reputation of being one of the better quality boats. I used to have a C30 some years ago and now have the C34. The help and advice I have received from the C 34 owners website has been incredible. I'm sure the C30 website is just as helpful.
Your best bet...look hard at both and decide which suits your needs best.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

Personally I'm partial to Sabre's for the obvious reasons but as Mr F has noted, be sure to check the compression post step. Also check the bulkheads for rot where the chainplates bolt up. Nice thing about these boats, they were stick built instead of a pan being tabbed to a hull.


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## mgmhead (Jan 14, 2007)

About 10-years ago I faced a similar decision and chose to go with a 1977 Sabre 34 over a newer Catalina 30 and never regretted that decision. Today I own a Catalina 387 and love it. The Sabre is a 'sweet sailing boat' and the Catalina is very comfortable sailing. Both boats have owners groups and receive support from the respective manufacturers.

Visit the boats and buy the one that 'speaks' to you. You'll make the right choice.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

IMO, Apples to Oranges comparison. 
The Sabre is in the quality of design and engineering group of makes like CS Yachts, Tartan, Valiant, and Ericson.
The Catalina is in a lesser group, especially back in those years.

The Cat 30 can sail adequately, but not well. The attempt of the keel to escape its enslavement to the hull on the old Catalina's is not a good thing, either. 

Like airplanes, boats all have their 'performance envelope' and the better ones are engineered and built to last longer, go further and be more fun to sail -- i.e. have a bigger envelope.

So buy the craft that fits your Real Needs, and more importantly quite often, is available to your local waters where you can avoid a large trucking fee. Just understand what your needs... are.

Fair winds,
Loren


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

To me they are both decent boats, it will be condition more than anything. The Saber was several steps higher in construction quality initially, but you are 30+ years on so many deficiencies will likely have been taken care of by now. One other thing to think about is the Saber is stick built for the most part, this creates a much more sturdy and likely less creaky structure but will make things like bulkhead replacement difficult because you will likely have to un-assemble more to get to things. don't discount looks, and the Saber is definitely a beautiful boat. 

Just as a reference PHRF on Catalina reg/tall is 180/174 and Saber is 180 so end speed is likely not too different.

Both should be well supported by owners groups and manufacturer. The Saber is almost a foot narrower, so it will not have as much space below ans be a bit more tender. But both look to have useable layouts. If they survey well I don't think you could go wrong with either. I would lean more towards the Saber, but I like antique furniture over new even if it has to be taken apart to refinish before use but that is me. Not a bad position to be in!


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Švejk said:


> ... Other than the mast compression and the Catalina smile is there anything else to be wary of on a Catalina?


That "smile" is not limited to Catalinas. Regardless, it was an inexpensive fix for our marina to do.

A fellow club member has a Saber 30. I love the interior layout with the exception of part of the galley being under the companionway steps. It allows for more cabin space but not a configuration that I like on any boat.


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## Švejk (May 7, 2014)

Great feedback and I appreciate it. I'm not necessarily looking for the "right" boat, just the "right now" boat... something intermediate for my wife and I to learn on, big enough to sleep on and strong enough to enjoy on the water (not repairing constantly) until we're ready to move to a bigger boat (if that should happen). Sailing will be mostly daysailing and weekend trips on the bay.

Honestly, I was surprised to see a Sabre in the same price category as the Cat which prompted this thread. I guess I need to be conscious of farkle envy. The Tall Rig has more extras but if the Sabre is in comparable shape it seems conventional wisdom may sway me that way....

My new mantra: Prop walk is my friend.. Prop walk is my friend..


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Švejk said:


> Great feedback and I appreciate it. I'm not necessarily looking for the "right" boat, just the "right now" boat... something intermediate for my wife and I to learn on, big enough to sleep on and strong enough to enjoy on the water (not repairing constantly) until we're ready to move to a bigger boat (if that should happen). Sailing will be mostly daysailing and weekend trips on the bay.
> 
> Honestly, I was surprised to see a Sabre in the same price category as the Cat which prompted this thread. I guess I need to be conscious of farkle envy. The Tall Rig has more extras but if the Sabre is in comparable shape it seems conventional wisdom may sway me that way....
> 
> My new mantra: Prop walk is my friend.. Prop walk is my friend..


\I am a believer that prop walk is your friend. However, if you find it isn't, for a couple thousand you buy a folding/feathering prop and it goes away.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

miatapaul said:


> Just as a reference PHRF on Catalina reg/tall is 180/174 and Saber is 180 so end speed is likely not too different.


US Sailing's national database disagrees. For the Catalina 30:
CATALINA 30 180 180 201 186 189
CATALINA 30 TM 168 168 186 174 177
SABRE 30-1 186 174 186 180 192
SABRE 30-3 168 162 170 165 171

Numbers are: base, lowest base, highest base, avg base, median base

I haven't done the research to see if the Sabre 30-1 and 30-2 are more similar, or the 30-2 and 30-3 are more closely related. US Sailing doesn't have a base for the 30-2.

All of these are close enough that the slowest boat on this list well sailed and with good sails, clean bottom, and low drag prop is going to sail quite a bit faster than the fastest boat on the list without those things. I finished a race on my Pearson 28-2 last night crossing the line at essentially the same time as a Dufour 34. My base handicap is 189 and his is 168. Boats with higher handicaps beat both of us, and we both beat boats with lower handicaps.

I know of multiple minutes worth of mistakes that slowed me down and could have made me even faster. None of them had anything to do with boat problems.


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## Alden68 (Mar 21, 2007)

Just a quick FYI - Sabre still makes sailboats. Not sure why there is a misconception. I don't think they want to be making sailboats anymore, but they do. 

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


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## mr_f (Oct 29, 2011)

Alden68 said:


> Just a quick FYI - Sabre still makes sailboats. Not sure why there is a misconception. I don't think they want to be making sailboats anymore, but they do.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


Sabre's website disagrees with you.



> At the current time, Sabre Yachts is not building any of it's sailing models.
> 
> While demand for sailboats has remained weak throughout the market, and is still well below recession levels, the demand for our power boats has never been stronger. Sabre's motor yacht business, along with our sister company Back Cove Yachts's models, have made substantial market share gains over the last five years. Our staffing levels have returned to 2010 levels, and our volume of shipments is nearing pre-recession levels.
> 
> ...


http://sabreyachts.com/sailing-yachts


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Alden68 said:


> Just a quick FYI - Sabre still makes sailboats. Not sure why there is a misconception. I don't think they want to be making sailboats anymore, but they do.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


When I spoke to a dealer this spring, he told me they only make power boats currently. This may not be permanent, but I guess they have been selling so well that they wanted to concentrate on them, or so I was told. And this is from there web page:


> At the current time, Sabre Yachts is not building any of it's sailing models.
> 
> While demand for sailboats has remained weak throughout the market, and is still well below recession levels, the demand for our power boats has never been stronger. Sabre's motor yacht business, along with our sister company Back Cove Yachts's models, have made substantial market share gains over the last five years. Our staffing levels have returned to 2010 levels, and our volume of shipments is nearing pre-recession levels.
> 
> ...


So they are out of it for now.


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## Alden68 (Mar 21, 2007)

I was told you could still get 45 42 and day sailor. I looked at the website for that quote and did not see it. At least on their mobile version.

It would be a shame but I'm sure if you offered them the cash they would build it. They have been building like 8 boats a year for a while so I can't imagine it much if a stretch to make 1. It's not like they shut down a 30 boat a year plant. 



Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

What is your budget for purchase and for repairs / updates / maintenance?

Barry


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

As these are early 80's boats make sure your surveyor does a complete bottom survey. Lots of blisters in those year boats. Many have been stripped down and repaired and are no longer a problem.


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## Švejk (May 7, 2014)

BarryL said:


> Hey,
> 
> What is your budget for purchase and for repairs / updates / maintenance?
> 
> Barry


I'm figuring about 10% of the cost of the boat as a rough guesstimate which would put me around $2k (that figure is probably a little low for the first year). I'm sure some years run more - some less but that's the starting budget.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

My dad owned a Cat 30 of that vintage and I worked for the dealer. I own a Sabre 38 of that vintage and had a Sabre 28 before that. I know the two brands well. The Catalina 30 takes half a hurricane to get it to go, had chronic weather helm problems, the parts weren't the greatest during that time (Seaway blocks and chromed bronze gooseneck are examples) and a 1 cylinder Yanmar is a joke ( may have been changed by 84). I love Catalina's, then and now but they're different boats. Visit the two and the difference is apparent. PM me if you would like more detail on either. No offense to any Catalina owners, I like them, especially those built in the last 10 years.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I think you now have a lot of good info to help in your decision. The Cat 30 will have the edge in space below. The Sabre will have the edge in construction quality and sailing performance. With 30 year old boats, condition is everything. Either will be fine as a first boat, all things being equal.


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## dinosdad (Nov 19, 2010)

One more thought, what motors do these boats have? I know a lot of people are scared out of their undies having a gas engine aboard but they are hammer and chisel easy to keep running, and cheap too, I thought sabre used Volvo diesels,
Which can be pricey when parts are needed( and if it's a older boat at the lower price range your gonna get some dirt under your fingernails! Not to scare ya ,
It's all good , earn your busted knuckle merit badge on your first boat then the second boat will be old hat! At least I'm hoping my second one will be....


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## Švejk (May 7, 2014)

dinosdad said:


> One more thought, what motors do these boats have?


They all have diesel thumpers. The Sabre has a Westerbeke W-13 (13 hp), the Tall Rig has a Universal (assuming the M1135 - 11 hp) and the standard rig has a newer Beta (20hp).


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

I wasn't aware that the Sabre 30 had the W13. That's the engine that we had on our 28 and the boat was underpowered.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

DRFerron said:


> A fellow club member has a Saber 30. I love the interior layout with the exception of part of the galley being under the companionway steps. It allows for more cabin space but not a configuration that I like on any boat.


That's the cool thing about having a stick built boat, you can renovate till your hearts content. I shortened up the starboard settee to extend the galley 30".


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Švejk said:


> I'm figuring about 10% of the cost of the boat as a rough guesstimate which would put me around $2k (that figure is probably a little low for the first year). I'm sure some years run more - some less but that's the starting budget.


Realistically figure you will spent 10-15% of the purchase price immediatly on defered maintenance just to get her up to snuff. And then 10% a year on equipment to keep her in the same shape she is in now. Upgrades are of course extra.

In addition you have slip and insurance fees. Which are a completely different pot of money.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Stumble said:


> Realistically figure you will spent 10-15% of the purchase price immediatly on defered maintenance just to get her up to snuff. And then 10% a year on equipment to keep her in the same shape she is in now. Upgrades are of course extra.
> 
> In addition you have slip and insurance fees. Which are a completely different pot of money.


If you could 10-15% immediately plus 10% per year in the first year (so 20-25%) then I agree with you. Even on a boat where everything seems ideal (like my Pearson when I bought it) you'll end up finding more stuff than you expected that either needs or desires change. In my case replacing the furler, redoing some of the electrical, and replacing sails earlier than expected (ie, wearing rose colored glasses when sailing the boat during the sea trial) increased my first year costs.

I did other first year things that could have waited, like making personal changes to the running rigging that others wouldn't have found necessary.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Never did understand the % of cost for maint, upgrades etc, It is more like a $ per foot. A 30foot might be say 100 a foot, a 35 120, 40' 150........ depending upon the year etc. Older rigs will cost you more initially than a newer one, and could be cheaper over the next 10 yrs than a fixer.

Marty


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

They are both good boats. The condition and features of a particular older boat are more important than make and model.

I would suggest you broaden your focus, both in terms of how you will search and the boat you will buy.

Broaden how you search by looking at boats offered by owners as well as brokers. Look at Sailboat Listings - sailboats for sale for sale by owner boats.

It is a strong buyers market in the Chesapeake Bay area where you will be sailing. Rather than focusing on only 2 or 3 models, I suggest you look for a well-built, well-maintained sailboat in your size range that is a good value. There are plenty of well-built boats that sail well. No need to limit yourself to a Sabre 30 or a Catalina 30. There might be a great boat available in a make and model outside your current focus.


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## Švejk (May 7, 2014)

just an update - the Sabre 30 won hands down. The Catalina didn't disappoint with the spacious interior but other items did. I was greeted with the famous Catalina smile that traveled about 2 feet and there was substantial rot inside around the chainplates.

The Sabre appeared well taken are of with the only wear showing on the brightwork.

The survey is scheduled for Thursday - we'll see what I missed.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Great. Good Luck!


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