# non resident to buy a yacht in usa,how to do it?



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

hey there.
iam living here in the states for the time being,i am non resident.i will be buying a yacht soon,2 or 3 months,then plan to stay for another 6 to 7 months,
and then head of to the islands for around 3 years,then head back home to Australia with the yacht through the canal,that leg may take me another 2 years to sail back to sydney,
where do i register the yacht?? i have a lot of friends on the east coast and can use there address if that helps,iam sure my broker has the answer but,who knows if that is gospel,
any advice would be very helpful thanks.
cheers johnny


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Johnny...there is no problem buying a boat and getting a STATE registration for any state in which you can establish an address. Be aware that SALES TAXES are due once you register a boat here in most states. Better to register or document it in Australia then move between states so as not to get caught in any of their "nets" ...which usually means no more than 90 days in a given state. 
You have an American flag on your Avatar...if you have a US passport you can simply document it with the Coast Guard using a USA address...then follow the "keep moving advice" in the above until you depart from the country. Many counties will not accept state registrations...they will want USA or Aussie documentation.


----------



## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*Register in the USVI........*

Locate someone with a USVI address and register there. They just want your $150 per year and could care less if you were from Mars. Just watch the tax laws of the state you are in (you may have to move within 90 days) and watch the French Islands who don't like US State Registration.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

camaraderie,you always have good info thank you,i have an australian passport.not american.is the sales tax 5 or 6 percent,thanks again johnny


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

gtod25,thanks for the info.

Camaraderie,with a usa state registered yacht,can i sail that to the Bahamas


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Johnny, sales tax will vary for each county in each state, and sometimes by the city as well. You need to enquire where you will register the boat--if you get a state registration.

But state registration will not be recognized as proof of anything, once you leave the US. For that you need titling. Since you are an alien, you cannot get USCG documentation, which is the US federal titling. In order to bring the boat into Oz, you may be required to have Australian titling on it--and to pay any tariffs that are in effect at that time. 

Local (state) registration and taxation can be required if you are in any one state for as little as 30 days. On the 31st day, registration, insurance, and taxation can kick in, because in most states boats are treated as motor vehicles and motor vehicles are required to be locally registered, often in 30 days, sometimes as generous as 90. In some places you cannot get a marina contract without showing proof of local taxes being paid, the tax men are ahead of the game and the marinas don't want to get stuck in the middle.

Your best best? I'd say find out what Oz wants. Catch-22 applies, because if you place the boat under any non-US flag, you need to remove it from the US, get a cruisoing permit, and then reimport the boat--for a period not to exceed one year before you must exit again.

These kind of regs don't just apply to the US, they apply everywhere. Everyone wants a piece, and don't even think about sailing home to Oz without advance clearance as your arrival date becomes closer.


----------



## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

Yes, I have had no problem with State Registration anywhere in the Caribbean, except the French Islands.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

hellosailor,the thing is, i will not be back to australia for 3 years at least,i think it might be easer at the moment to stay with usa state registration.as i will be sailing back and forth from ny state to miami bahamas ect,
thanks for your input cheers, johnny


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

gtod25.usa state rego is good for the caribbean,thats good to hear,whats the deal with the french ah!!
cheers johnny


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Johnny....HS has it pretty much right except that the Bahamas ans some other islands will accept a state reg. You won't get through the canal that way though so you MUST title the boat in aussieland. If you do that you can avoid state sales tax by moving along. Florida has a 90 day limit and a 6% minimum sales tax with a little more in some counties.


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Johnny... Gtod is right AND wrong. Most islands will let you in with just state registration BUT many of their RULES require documentation...so you always are taking a chance on the customs guy being nice to you. French Islands will never let you in! In any case...you NEED Aussie documentation to get through the canal and through the pacific.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

camaraderie,yes i will rego in australia but not right now, thanks for the info.johnny


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One thing that Gtod has missed is that you may have a problem with a US-State-Registered boat, since you are not a US citizen or resident. That may be a complication that Gtod doesn't have, depending on whether he is a US resident or citizen. Titling the boat in Australia would be far safer and probably cause you far fewer problems abroad. 

IIRC, a US-State-registered boat isn't allowed to fly the US flag as an ensign in foreign waters, since it technically isn't a US-flagged vessel.


----------



## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

I was not a US citizen or resident for the 4 years I cruised the Caribbean in a USVI registered boat, flying the US Flag. With the exception of minor hassle in the French Islands I never encountered any problems. But seeing you have 17,700 more posts that me, I am not going to argue with you.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm betting that the USCG and ICE may have gotten a bit more restrictive about entering and exiting the US since 9/11.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Gtog25,did you buy your yacht in the USA or the USVI,thanks for your input.
johnny


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog,yes its pain in the ass,but it might be easer to rego her here in nyc,as my girl and myself live in nyc,and then i will deal with the rego in australia when i will have the boat in the islands on a permanent bases.
cheers johnny


----------



## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*Actually bought it in the BVI's......*

but it was previously a US documented vessel. Don't let people confuse you on three separate issues.

Foreign nationals entering the US on a sailboat = PITA = need visa = hassle.

US State Registered vessel entering/leaving US = boat tax is a State issue = ICE has no interest, unless they are really having a bad hair day.

Ref flying a US flag on a state registered vessel in international water = who is going to stop you?? I met the USCG once in 7 years in the Caribbean (ending 2006).

Your only major issue will be the Tax in the state you are living in. You may be well advised to pay this, as tax evasion and work permits are possibly a bad mix.

Tooling around in a boat with a big "Skippy" flag  at the back end will certainly attract unnecessary attention.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

gtog25,would that be skippy the kangaroo.yes, i do not need any attention flying that flag here,thanks for your input later. johnny


----------



## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

An american boat is implied by US customs to be one owned by a US citizen and if not customs registered has to be state or USVI registered.

It is not clear whether state registration requires citizenship but it does require proof of id. I suspect that if it is foreign owned ie by you state registration would not make any difference to your handling by customs, and these days you could find major problems arise.

In contrast to an american boat "The master of a foreign-flag or undocumented foreign pleasure boat must report its arrival to US Customs immediately and must make formal vessel entry on a Customs Forms (CF) 1300 within 48 hours. In the absence of a cruising license, vessels in this category must obtain a permit before proceeding to each subsequent US port."

While it talks solely in terms of the boat arriving, one would hope that a cruising permit could be obtained for a boat that is purchased there without having to leave first. Otherwise they have to obtain clearance before leaving for another country or US port.

There could also be complications with your visa. Unless you have certain ones, a 2b I think and another, giving multiple re-entry you cannot arrive by sea although you are from a country that is exempted a visa for short stays. Also there is a restriction on obtaining further entry by arriving from adjacent countries Canada Mexico and the Caribbean.

Normally a boat would be registered in the country of which you are a citizen, citizenship being a requirement of registry. The alternative of a flag of convenience means registering a company presumably as owner higher costs and annual fees.

There is no point in paying sales tax in the US when you will be hit by duty and GST on return to Australia. I think you may find it simpler to front up and register as an australian yacht. There are complications but probably less severe than if one wanders into the uncertain bureaucratic nightmare of not being the routine or usual case. You could find yourself deported.


----------



## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

There are changes that may not be prominently disclosed...For a US documented boat - you have 60 days from state to state...not 90 as previously stated. (hence you can avoid state taxes if every 60 days you move to another state)...

However, you can not document a vessel with the Coast guard if you are not a US citizen...

If you have a non-US documented vessel you are except from state registrations for a min of 90 days per documented port of entry (in some cases that is per state)...However, by regulations a non-US documented vessel actually can have up to 6 months (or more) ... with out penalty... depending on the circumstance the vessel is here (ie: visa, drydock etc..).

The best bet is to review everything available at http://www.uscg.mil/

It'll give you all of the options available for you... Since you are not a US citizen - and going back to Australia... maybe buying a a documented vessel outside the US is a better way to go...


----------



## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*Folks, I think we are over complication the matter...*

lets break it down into stages;

johnny333 is legally in the US and wants to buy a boat. He buys it and pays sales tax on it. Good so far. He has to have it registered somewhere but as he is a "damn foreigner" he cannot get Federal registration. So therefore he gets NY State registeration using his driving license. Good so far. Lots of "damn foreigner's" have boats in the US so it must work. Plus the states like getting tax revenue. johnny333 should check this first.

Now johnny333, bless his demented soul, wants to sail to the Bahamas, Caribbean islands, Central America (except the French islands) etc. He has a US State registered vessel, these countries have no 9/11 issues so no problem. He has to fly a flag, so a US one makes the most sense.

Now johnny333 wants to return to the US. If he can legally register, keep and pay tax on a vessel in NY State why cannot the boat return to it, even via another state. If he has a multiple entry visa, ditto for johnny333.

Ref the French islands. As johnny333 is "damn foreigner" and not an American the French will possible turn a blind eye and let him in, State registration and all (They did for me). Especially now that the Skippies have turfed out that idiot John Howard* (FOB).

But what do I know, I've only done it!
*
*Keep in mind, however, that some bureaucrat is well capable of screwing up the best laid plans of mice and men.

*


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

thanks to everyone for the information,its a little complicated but thats the deal.anyway i will take care of it step by step.
Gtod25,good times ah,little johnny howard is down the frog and tod.
i will go to the top with this deal!!it will be all cool.thanks for your input.cheers johnny


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Johnny...good luck with it all. You need to read this document about boatregistration etc. in NY since you indicate that is where you will keep her: http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/forms/boats.pdf

ArtbyJody...sorry but that is simply incorrect about 60 days state to state.See link above for proof. Each state has its' own rules...Florida and NY are 90 days, others are 60 or 30 or 60 consecutive and no more than 180 in a calendar year. It varies all over the lot and you have to look at each state.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

camaraderie,thanks for your input again much appreciated cheers johnny
iam sure i will see you "out side" one day,that means going to sea,in australia,were i grew up anyway.


----------



## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

While I can not reproduce the link... I did run across a section on the USCG website - highlighted in green that explicatively stated 60 days... and hence the only reason I posted that because I do not have time to make up anything...

yes different states do have certain policies and those policies must be dissented from the definitions of moving from state to state or a traveling from state to state...



camaraderie said:


> Johnny...good luck with it all. You need to read this document about boatregistration etc. in NY since you indicate that is where you will keep her: http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/forms/boats.pdf
> 
> ArtbyJody...sorry but that is simply incorrect about 60 days state to state.See link above for proof. Each state has its' own rules...Florida and NY are 90 days, others are 60 or 30 or 60 consecutive and no more than 180 in a calendar year. It varies all over the lot and you have to look at each state.


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Jody...now you have me interested. Find and post it when the tequila runs out! (g)


----------



## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

I'll have it tomorrow - but crap me not - I read it and it was clearly indicated that the 90 day rule had changed... when do you go the USCG site and text is in green? at any rate will produce tomorrow as I ate half the worm already _



camaraderie said:


> Jody...now you have me interested. Find and post it when the tequila runs out! (g)


----------



## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

State registration is a boat control and maybe tax issue. The vessel is in fact owned by a foreigner. It is not registered in a national registry under a flag of convenience, and cannot be registered as an american boat.
It would seem wrong that it could fly an american flag representing that it was, even if certain countries have turned a blind eye to this, probably mainly on the grounds proximity and $$. However perhaps gtod25 could say exactly when he got away with it. The danger it seems to me is in the US coast guard boarding now and requiring documentation and compliance to be correct. The chances of that would seem as an outsider to be greater now than before. They may even be able to tell the difference between an australian and american.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Actually, NYS has some obscure rules about motorized vessels. They only have to be registered in the state IF they are "on the navigable waterways" of the state for over 90 days in a row. The laws are obscure enough that you probably couldn't convince a bay constable without showing them the books...but in theory you can keep a motorized vessel in NYS waters for 89 days, pop over to CT or NJ or wherever for lunch or fuel, and then come back in for another 89 days. Haul the boat for the winter...the counting stops, because you are not in the navigable waterways.<G>
Of course if you are a resident, you still have to pay TAX on the damned thing, you're just given a break on the registration. And every water cop will still come up to find out why you've got no numbers on it. And, the folks at most DMV offices will still run and hide if you hand them papers and say "BOAT", they just don't deal with them in every office every day. Go figure.


----------



## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

One trick that johnny333 needs to watch out for is: if he flies to the USA on a visa waiver programme, as most Europeans do, buys his boat, goes for a test sail, comes back and is met by USCG, they will want to see a US visa in his passport. Aaaah!

The visa waiver programme only applies to airline and shipping line passengers, entering through international airports/ports, not for foreign yachties entering US waters.


----------



## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*Ref. USCG boarding and getting upset over Flag.*



chris_gee said:


> It would seem wrong that it could fly an american flag representing that it was, even if certain countries have turned a blind eye to this, probably mainly on the grounds proximity and $$. However perhaps gtod25 could say exactly when he got away with it. The danger it seems to me is in the US coast guard boarding now and requiring documentation and compliance to be correct. The chances of that would seem as an outsider to be greater now than before. They may even be able to tell the difference between an australian and american.


Chris, I flew a US flag on my Florida registered boat until Nov 2006 when I sold her. It appeared to make more sense that flying a Florida State flag. Bless your little tax paying heart if you if you think the USCG should divert resources from their current maritime challenges to arrest johnny333 for having the incorrect flag. Please check out the current state of the USCG *"Integrated Deepwater System Program". *Most of their 110ft. Cutters in Florida have been tied up with mechanical issues resulting from their recent refits. If they do board and arrest johnny333 for having the wrong flag, you should demand a tax refund.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"It would seem wrong that it could fly an american flag representing that it was,"
The laws about flying an American flag basically say that if you want to fly it, you can. Flying it does not necessarily represent your vessel or your house as being government property or anything else, unless you are flying it on a warship. In which case, you and the boarding party are going to have bigger problems.


----------



## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

It is not a matter of arrest for showing the wrong flag as such, rather the flag purports to show that it is an american owned boat, whereas in fact it is foreign owned. As foreign owned it is subject to certain restrictions and it would be non compliance with those which could be an issue.
In many places foreign owned boats are subject to some discreet control or surveillance by satellite and planes. Australia being just one instance of this and I suspect the authorities would take a dim view of a boat trying to pass off as a local.
How do you think the CG would feel about a non US boat filled with Cubans or Iranians, mingling with US boats by flying a US flag? Sure an Australian may or may not be perceived as a lesser threat and the chances of boarding in Chesapeake Bay may be less than en route from Cuba, but we are not talking about a day boat here. With current levels of security paranoia or concern, a foreigner may well want to have his paperwork right. I don't know the chances of boarding. Seemingly it is not unknown at random.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Chris, it is all well and good to speak about intents and deceptions--but meaningless when there are no laws to address the flying of the flag. On the other hand, if the hailing port isn't there, or is there fraudulently, or there is no registration...all sorts of possibilities open.

You have to work within the confines of the law, and if you don't find them confining enough, figure out how to pass ones that are. Considering that most boats in the US fly *no* flags at all, the thought of Cubans or Iranians flying any flag at all when they have no need to do so, is simply preposterous.

Last time I entered the US, I literally did so in a rubber boat on a moonless night carrying a big black duffel bag. Customs & Immigration? Didn't apply.

Boatloads of Cubans? They land in Florida every day, and flags are the last thing they will waste money on.


----------



## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*Damn Chris, now you made me do it.........*

I actually looked up the Flag Bible (The US Power Squadron "How to display flags").

It says;

"Remember the national ensign worn by a vessel must be the flag of her registry - not necessarily that of the owner or operator." If the vessel is registered in NY State (thats in the USA, last time I checked), then the vessel should fly a US Flag.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hello all its all very good info,thank you all very much
J M it must be cold and windy in the Aran islands,CHEERS


----------



## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

Except state registration is not a national registration even if some local countries accept it. To be registered as an american boat it has to be CG registration only available to an american citizen, or a company 75% owned by americans.
It is correct that the flag is determined by national registration, but with the exception of flags of convenience and the costs of that, registration is only extended to citizens it makes the boat subject to that country's laws and protection.
State registration is only intended as a control over boating not to provide internationally recognised legal standing.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

gtod, there is no NYS registration requirement for pleasurecraft to fly ANY flag. If there was, the bay constables would have made a fortune enforcing it--and they don't.

The Power Squadron? "Must" ? Try finding a section of the US Code or other federal legislation that requires it for pleasure craft. You won't. 

I'm not an admiralty lawyer, but I'm more familiar with both of those areas than most. And most don't fly any flag unless it is for decoration.

If you do, I'll eat my hat.


----------



## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

"The flying of the flag on the high seas identifies a ship as operating under the relevant flag State’s authority, obligations, and responsibilities under its national and international maritime laws. The US Supreme Court in Lauritzen v Larsen offers a comprehensive summary of the law of the flag:

“Each State under international law may determine for itself the conditions on which it will grant its nationality to a merchant ship, thereby accepting responsibility for it and acquiring authority over it. Nationality is evidenced to the world by the ship’s papers and flag. The United States has firmly and successfully maintained that the regularity and validity of a registration can be questioned only by the registering State.”

The national flag (and therefore the register in which a ship is registered) constitutes the source of a country’s responsibilities and obligations in relation to, and jurisdiction over, the vessel."
State in this context means country. Only some powers are delegated by the US as a State to states. Flying the flag is internationally taken as evidence of nationality of the boat, a nationality which is not granted by the US to non citizens.


----------



## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Ship: Not a pleasure craft usually. Ships start at 100 feet in size.

High Seas: That's outside the territorial waters.

There's a big difference between flagging a ship at sea, and a boat on the coast. And the number of SHIPS that SAIL is so small, they can all be listed in the same slim book, and almost as easily memorized for sight. (This is SAILnet, where the usual context is sailing and small craft, not merchant shipping.)

Wanna sneak a tanker into the US? Rustbuckets are easier to hide under a Liberian (etc) flag. You think Liberia is going to come protest?


----------



## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

all of the talk of the last couple of day on this topic may be moot. 
_
"Under the new system, which takes effect Jan. 31, Americans and Canadians who are 19 or older will have to present proof of citizenship when they seek to enter the United States through a land or sea port of entry. A passport will be fine. Or a birth certificate coupled with some other ID such as a driver's license.

Chertoff said he had been surprised to learn that simply stating "I am an American" and showing an ID card has been sufficient to get back into the country. "I don't think in this day and age we can afford the honor system for entering the United States," he said. "Regrettably, we live in a world in which people lie sometimes about their identity."

For people other than Americans or Canadians, the rules at the northern border will be unchanged - passports and visas will still be required. The same goes for non-Americans at the Mexican border."_


----------



## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

Documentation doesn't just apply to commercial shipping - where it applies to all trade and fishing vessels over 5 nett tons. That it is not a measure of weight but of volume said by CG to be the equivalent roughly of 25' length.

Pleasure vessels of the same size may be federally registered. This would usually be required for international clearance. However certain countries close to the US accept state registration.

An american boat is accepted by CG as as american if it is either Fed registered, or state registered and owned by an american citizen. All others are considered foreign whether registered elsewhere or not. As such certain restrictions apply namely reporting to customs and having a cruising permit for pleasure boats, and incidentally advising of presence at each port. 

It is an offence in NZ Australia and I imagine most other countries including the US for a vessel to endeavour to mislead as to the boat's nationality, which includes flying the flag of a country other than that to which it is entitled.

Obviously an american in a small craft is entitled whether registered or not to fly an american flag. However, a foreign owned vessel is normally required to show the flag to which it is entitled, entering and leaving any port and in port during daylight. It would seem to me that a foreign vessel is not entitled to fly the US flag (other than as a courtesy flag) and may well be committing an offence in doing so. Flying a flag on a vessel in foreign waters is different to flying a flag elsewhere to acknowledge say a particular day.

If boarded the OP could be asked for proof of ownership and identity. It seems to me clear that that would establish that it is foreign owned and requires a cruising permit. It seems to me that that could lead to problems.

The OP has a choice. 1. Establish via customs exactly what his position is, because posters here do not have full access usually to the law and cases, myself included, and the law is not always clear.

2. Rely on the fact that GTOP got away with it, and hope to do the same. I doubt that the CG would take "Oh this guy on the internet said I would be ok" as an excuse.

3. Register in Australia on purchase, and get a cruising permit. This seems the cheaper and safer option.


----------



## jentine (Sep 4, 2000)

Register the boat in Rhode Island. There is no sales tax for resident boats. The registration fee is determined by the length of the boat and is for two years. Everything can be done by mail.

Jim


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Register the boat in Rhode Island."
That doesn't help him unless he keeps the boat in RI or keeps moving it around between states. Register it in RI but try to take out a seasonal mooring in some other state--and you may find yourself with a tax lien on the boat. Not to mention, a marina that won't give you the contract until they see a local registration on it.
And that's assuming RI would register the boat--without a local address for the registrant. (Will they really?)

No, the tax men have been wise to sailors' tricks for many years now. And they help each other out. Sometimes you can beat them, sometimes you can lose the boat. Not to mention, an alien committing tax fraud in the US could have his visa revoked awfully fast--and the boat held behind, under the lien.


----------



## nickj (Nov 3, 2008)

johnny, i can't PM you, because i don't have a high enough postcount, however i wanted to ask how things ended up for you with the boat reg etc? i'm also sailing back home to oz, however i left from holland, and am currently in nyc. PM me if you get this... cheers, nick

bigoceans.com


----------

