# Battery Setup: Blue Sea ACR?



## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Hi All,

Yes, it's *Y*et *A*nother *B*attery *Q*uestion 

As I noted in Battery Switch: Field Disconnect Protection, our battery switch needs replacing. My current thinking is to go with the Blue Sea Systems Add A Battery system, which consists of their e-Series Battery Switch Dual Circuit Plus [tm]










and their 7610-SI-Series Automatic Charging Relay










This solution is affordable. The idea of not having to deal with the whole "1/BOTH/2" thing is attractive, yet one can still combine in an emergency. The only down-side to that solution I can see is if you wanted or needed to start off only the house bank, for example. But I suppose, in such a rare circumstance, you could always go down below and do some manual re-wiring.

The big question is this: We currently have two group 24 batteries. I'm thinking a group 24 battery is fine for starting, but we'll probably want at least a pair of group 27 or group 31 batteries when we someday get into cruising. Will the Blue Sea ACR properly deal with a such a setup?

Secondly: here and here, it looks like both btrafors and TheFrenchFrog, respectively, are suggesting battery combiners and isolators are an inferior solution. Does this apply to the Blue Sea ACR?

Other info: Boat has a Xantrex TrueCharge 10TB charger and, I assume, the original Motorola 35A alternator. I realize both of those are under-powered. One thing at a time .

Jim


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

You can verify the current rating of the relay on the link you included. Isolators inherently create a voltage drop so some people dislike them although it is usually a simple matter to adjust the regulator to compensate. If you don't compensate for the voltage drop, the isolator will prevent effective re-charge, hence the popularity of combiners which are more operator-error-proof. 

The ACR is a combiner. Stated another way, combiners are relays. Not sure who told you combiners are inferior but their advice and maybe their understanding is ambiguous.

Before you embark on any significant elec system upgrade, you would be better off to first clearly identify your ultimate needs by doing a simple energy audit of your boat as without that, you are designing a system which has no specific objective (to serve a specificed power need).


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Jim, 

I have been running that setup for a good four months now - absolutely no issues. Your charging system will fine if you are just weekending etc... Yes, you would be correct that there is no manual switch for the starting battery - its because it doesn't need it, as you wire the engine starting wire to the post that is for the starting battery. The ACR seyup is far superior to standard battery switches as when you start the engine it keeps the current draw for only what it needs and from the proper battery so no bizarre dimming or recycling of electronics..I did a post awhile ago how to install one...


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

halekai36 said:


> *Here is a far fetched scenario where an ACR type relay could be dangerous.*
> 
> #1 You accidentally deplete your house bank by leaving the fridge on over night after being on teh hook for the last three days.
> 
> ...


Yes, but in all fairness and in the spirit of full disclosure, the above scenario can be eliminated by simply removing the battery switch such that you have dedicated, separate start and house banks. In point of fact, the switch is completely unnecessary and only serves to create problems which is what i think the writer of the above is trying to say.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd have to say, for the majority of boaters, the ACR/Dual Circuit Plus Battery Switch combination is tough to beat. It makes things relatively simple to use, helps protect the electronics from any voltage dropouts/spikes that occur when starting the engine, etc. 

There are rare scenarios where the setup will fail you... but that is probably true of almost any setup you could possibly use. However, it does have its complete simplicity working in your favor.


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## jbondy (Mar 28, 2001)

artbyjody said:


> Jim,
> 
> Yes, you would be correct that there is no manual switch for the starting battery - its because it doesn't need it, as you wire the engine starting wire to the post that is for the starting battery.


Is this the correct way to wire this set up? The BlueSeas switch opens and closes two independent circuits, with a third position for combining them. I have this set up and wired the start switch to one the switched circuits so I could cut it off if there was short anywhere in the starting system.


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

jbondy said:


> Is this the correct way to wire this set up? The BlueSeas switch opens and closes two independent circuits, with a third position for combining them. I have this set up and wired the start switch to one the switched circuits so I could cut it off if there was short anywhere in the starting system.


Well there are four posts on that selector combiner switch. That is probably a decent idea there Jbondy - but one that is unneccesary I think as a short anywhere in your starting system will trip the inline fuses (assuming you have those installed per Blue Seas documentation).

Commenting on some other posts here:

What people fail to realize that it automatically handles the starting battery when starting the engine with no need for combining. Even if the starter battery goes low it will auto switch to the house banks for brief seconds it needs to start the engine. The combining mode is for manual handling (which in most cases you will never use). Of course this only occurs if you have the ACR inline with the combining switch.

I have yet had the need to ever to do the combine function other than in testing and troubleshooting of various electrical gremlins as I re-wire the boat.

I don't know anything about the echo charger system, but for what it is worth the Blue Seas solution works incredibly well. Unlike when I had my Catalina with just a perko 1/2/both/off switch - I have yet to actually use the switch for starting etc...and it has been one of the few upgrades i have done that takes the nuisances out of the sailing regimen I learned I had to deal with with my previous setup...


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

halekai36 said:


> I remember seeing locking battery switches a while back but have not seen any as of late?


Perko makes one: BATTERY SWITCH LOCKING 250A CONT. 360A INTERMITT 139488 - but it looks like it only locks in "OFF," which kind of makes sense.

Jim


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Halekai, (and others)

Try this:








$18.36 + tax at Home Creepo

RiteTemp Clear Thermostat Guard Box With Key Lock Fits Most Popular Thermostat Brands - 6001 at The Home Depot

Or do a google search on "locking thermostat covers"

If that don't work, you can always try duct tape


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

halekai36 said:


> If you shut the engine down soon after for an emergency repair you could still be screwed..


This is the scenario that worries me. True, it's not extremely likely, but neither is it all that far-fetched.

By my way of thinking, the ideal system would always start by recharging the starting battery. After all, in any situation the one thing you want to be able to do is to start the engine, so that you can get the alternator working.

So my ideal control system would detect when a charging source came online (be it alternator, solar, shore-power, or whatever) and then first recharge the starting battery. Once the starting battery was full (and most of the time this should take very little charging) then it would begin charging the house bank.

My question is, is there any simple system out there that behaves like this?


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## jbondy (Mar 28, 2001)

It was my understanding that's how the ACR works. When the charging process starts, while the output of the regulator may be a high voltage, the voltage of the system doesn't reach the level necessary for combining to occur until after the battery that is connected to the regulator is charged. Then the two banks are combined. But I could be wrong.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

*Have you even read what the Dual Circuit Plus battery switch can do. **

In what universe did it say that it would AUTOMATICALLY combine the batteries for starting the engine. **I'd really appreciate if you'd point out where the documentation for it says that it can automatically combine the batteries to start the engine.

It doesn't combine the batteries unless the switch is turned to the COMBINE position. It can't. It is a simple mechanical switch. Take it apart and you'll see that there is no provision for it doing what you say it can do.

BTW, this is not the only time you've given seriously wrong information on this switch, and I wish you'd stop doing it. *


artbyjody said:


> Well there are four posts on that selector combiner switch. That is probably a decent idea there Jbondy - but one that is unneccesary I think as a short anywhere in your starting system will trip the inline fuses (assuming you have those installed per Blue Seas documentation).
> 
> Commenting on some other posts here:
> 
> ...


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Halekai is correct: the Balmar DuoCharge or the Xantrex EchoCharge devices are the preferred way to go, because:

1. Their operation is totally automatic; you don't need to switch any switches.

2. They are not *combiners* and, as he correctly pointed out, it's not a good idea to combine batteries with markedly different charge levels.

3. Instead, they do exactly what denverDon wished: they do nothing UNTIL they sense a charging voltage on the house batteries. Then, they bleed off whatever current is required (up to 30A for the DuoCharge or up to 15A for the EchoCharge) to completely charge the starting battery.

4. Halekai is also correct in that it takes very little AH to start a diesel. If your diesel starts normally, i.e., in a few seconds, only a tiny amount of AH will be withdrawn from the battery. This requires only a very short time @ 30A or 15A....minutes really...to completely recharge the start battery.

5. These devices will not overcharge your start battery. They just sit there doing their own thing, requiring NO maintenance or other intervention on your part.

My EchoCharge has worked flawlessly for four years now (attached to a 675AH house bank and a 100AH start battery...all flooded). I've installed a number of DuoCharge's on customer's boats. All work perfectly, so far as I know.

There is NO WAY you can wire a boat so that you can match these results. NO HUMAN INTERVENTION -- switching this and switching that -- can match this.

And, while battery combiners and islolaters will work, neither is a good idea IMHO when there are better alternatives to not only work but protect and prolong the life of your very expensive batteries.

Bill


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## jbondy (Mar 28, 2001)

sailingdog said:


> *Have you even read what the Dual Circuit Plus battery switch can do. *
> 
> *In what universe did it say that it would AUTOMATICALLY combine the batteries for starting the engine. **I'd really appreciate if you'd point out where the documentation for it says that it can automatically combine the batteries to start the engine. *
> 
> ...


Whoa - I thought you were shouting at me there, for a sec!! Pheww!


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## TaylorC (May 15, 2008)

*Automatic combining?*



> What people fail to realize that it automatically handles the starting battery when starting the engine with no need for combining. Even if the starter battery goes low it will auto switch to the house banks for brief seconds it needs to start the engine. The combining mode is for manual handling (which in most cases you will never use). Of course this only occurs if you have the ACR inline with the combining switch.


Uhmmm... Jody - I'm not sure that's the way it really works. The Blues Seas ACR can handle 120 amps continuous, 280 amps inrush, and I'm pretty sure that you would cook it if you tried to pull the engine starting current across the relay.

Plus, I don't think the ACR closes until it sees a charge voltage on the upstream battery (greater than 13 volts) and that won't happen when you are trying to start on a dead battery. In fact I think the ACR would want to stay open under heavy current draw on the starting battery to avoid the load on one battery from draining the other.

Edit - I missed page 2, I see saildog has already used a seriously large font to point out this same thing. Perhaps too large a font in my view.


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

*ACR relay*

Didn't the OP say he had the Blue sea automatic charging relay system. I think the relay will charge either bank automatically regardless of where the switch is set. Thats the whole idea of the system isn't it? I also understand that you have to be carefull when using multi stage chargers because of sensing issues when in float stage (charging voltage 2 low for proper operation).


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Actually, it depends on the which ACR relay you've got. The one pictured above will charge BOTH banks provided either side has a charging level voltage present. The older one would only combine and charge both banks if the primary bank was being charged, but wouldn't do the same if the secondary bank had a charging voltage unless a sense wire was connected.



RXBOT said:


> Didn't the OP say he had the Blue sea automatic charging relay system. I think the relay will charge either bank automatically regardless of where the switch is set. Thats the whole idea of the system isn't it? I also understand that you have to be carefull when using multi stage chargers because of sensing issues when in float stage (charging voltage 2 low for proper operation).


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

*Float voltage*

Halekai or is it Acoustic, don't some multistage chargers do the float stage at low 12 volt levels. While were on subject don't different types of battery have different limits to what is healthy for them? That may be more concerned with amps though.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Halekai-
" This is because your group 24 battery with roughly 70 amp hours just tried to charge a 450 amp hour bank of dead batteries "
If the Blue Sea ACR gizmo is as smart as the Yandina/West combiner is, that scenario could not happen!
Check the manual. If the house bank is so far depleted that it could suck the alternator and battery voltage below 13.6(?) volts--the combiner will open up and isolate the starting battery from the house bank again. IIRC there's about a 90-second delay in the system so it doesn't chatter, but when the system voltage drops, for any reason, the Yandina combiner cuts out the second battery until the primary one has been brought back up to nominal voltage again.

The only real fault I've heard is that, after all, a relay can fail. And I agree, they can fail, but they're pretty damn reliable when they are sourced from prime sources to begin with. (As both the Yandina and BS probably are.)

Jim-
In terms of capacity and updates later, as long as the maximum amperage ratings are less than what you are planning to upgrade to, you'll be fine. The Yandina/West version comes in 75A and 150A ratings, as I recall, and as long as your alternator output is LESS than the device rating, you're OK.
You really have a 35A alternator?? Not 55A?


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Ok, everybody, thanks for your comments. Very much appreciated.

It looks like The Way To Go (for us, anyway) would be the Blue Sea Systems e-Series Battery Switch Dual Circuit Plus [tm]










coupled with the Xantrex Echo-Charge










I wonder what kind of interaction there would possibly be between the Xantrex Echo-Charge and the Xantrex TrueCharge 10TB charger? The Echo-Charge detects charging on the house bank and diverts up to 15A to the start battery. The 10TB is a dual-channel smart charger, that's going to want to handle each battery/bank independently. Guess I'll have to call/write Xantrex to ask them about that.

Thanks again, everybody. (Now I just have to convince The Admiral and Family CFO to let me spend Yet A Few More Bucks on this solution. Wish me luck!)

Jim


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

hellosailor said:


> You really have a 35A alternator?? Not 55A?


Yes, I really do have a 35A alternator, assuming it's the original/stock Motorola alternator with which Atomic-4s were fitted. I have no reason to believe otherwise, and it looks like the original I've seen in pictures.

Jim


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Jim,

The TrueCharge 10TB charger can handle one battery bank just fine. Connect one red wire and one black wire to the desired battery bank (e.g., to the house bank).

The EchoCharge will work independently of the TrueCharge 10TB charger. Connect it to the start battery and the house battery bank per instructions which accompany the device.

Bill


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

btrayfors said:


> The TrueCharge 10TB charger can handle one battery bank just fine.


Just so that I'm completely clear, when you use an EchoCharge type device you have no need, nor use, for a charger that can charge two banks independently. You only want to charge one bank anyway, and let the EchoCharge handle the other one.

One thing that is obvious from all of these "how do I charge my batteries" threads is that there is a LOT of confusion out there! Is there a book that explains it all in a clear and concise manner for the layman? Perhaps Nigel Calder's book? (Which, I confess, is on my list but I haven't gotten around to reading yet.)


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

btrayfors said:


> Jim,
> 
> The TrueCharge 10TB charger can handle one battery bank just fine. Connect one red wire and one black wire to the desired battery bank (e.g., to the house bank).


Yes. Alternatively: I can leave the 10TB hooked up just the way it is, and hook the Echo-Charge up. Xantrex says they will not interfere with one another.



btrayfors said:


> The EchoCharge will work independently of the TrueCharge 10TB charger. Connect it to the start battery and the house battery bank per instructions which accompany the device.


Yes, of course.

Since the 10TB only has 10A max output, its behaviour using one channel run _through_ the Echo-Charge would probably be the same as when using the two "channels," which aren't really very independent at all, it seems.

Jim


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

No matter what Xantrex says, if you're gonna use an EchoCharge, I'd disconnect the second "channel" (i.e., the 2nd red wire from the charger).

It's not a question of how much amperage; it's a question of flow control (or "interaction" as you correctly surmised at the beginning).

The EchoCharge is built exactly for what you wanna do. The charger's 2nd channel likely isn't as "smart". Leaving it connected could fool the EchoCharge into thinking the battery is at a higher level of charge than it really is.

Without getting to a real design engineer familiar with that particular charger (and where do you find one at Xantrex these days?), I'd opt for the "clean" solution rather than trust to what someone told you over the phone.

Bill


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

btrayfors said:


> No matter what Xantrex says, if you're gonna use an EchoCharge, I'd disconnect the second "channel" (i.e., the 2nd red wire from the charger).


That's probably what I'll do in any event, because...



btrayfors said:


> It's not a question of how much amperage; it's a question of flow control (or "interaction" as you correctly surmised at the beginning).


Yes.



btrayfors said:


> The EchoCharge is built exactly for what you wanna do. The charger's 2nd channel likely isn't as "smart". Leaving it connected could fool the EchoCharge into thinking the battery is at a higher level of charge than it really is.


It all depends on how the 10TB and Echo-Charge's outputs and sensing are designed. They might mess with one another and they might not. But, since the 10TB's two "channels" aren't really all that independent of one another, anyway, it makes more sense to remove all doubt and let the starter and house banks be handled the same at the dock as off the alternator: Main charge to the house bank, echo to the starting battery.



btrayfors said:


> Without getting to a real design engineer familiar with that particular charger (and where do you find one at Xantrex these days?), I'd opt for the "clean" solution rather than trust to what someone told you over the phone.


Agreed.

Jim


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