# Nonsuch 33



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

I was out this PM with a novice sailor and her new to her Nonsuch 33. This is the boat with one large main sail, no stays and a wishbone boom.

The way she sailed it was with the topping lift tight.
This made the sail belly enough so the roach would flip past the topping lift on tacks.
I thought the sail shape would be improved if the topping lift was released which indeed did happen.
With the topping lift loose however the roach would not flip past.
It wasn't too bad but it did deform the leach a little on one tack.

Is this normal on this boat?
Any info on best rig setup?


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Hi David,
I am more familiar with the Sunfish then the Nonesuch 33' but I have seen them and know the boat you are asking about. 
I can understand using the topping lift with this one massive sail to add belly as you described, in light winds. I can also understand your desire to release the topping lift to eliminate some of the draft or belly of the sail in bigger winds. 
I wonder if simply removing the topping lift from the boom end and attaching it to the mast base while sailing would be simpler and give the roach all the freedom it needs to tack?
Constantly trimming the topping lift for tacks and letting it out once around sounds like a fairly dubious idea to me, especially in any kind of blow. Having the roach hang up on the topping lift sounds bad for the sail due to chafing. 
Is there a boom vang on this boat as well? If so I'd guess you'd use the topping lift only at anchor or in light air and otherwise not at all and it could be detached from the boom while sailing.
The boom vang, traveler and main sheet could be used to keep the sail flatter for higher winds. No need for a topping lift in higher winds.
My $.02.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Nonesuch boats have a wishbone boom and are essentially self-vanging due to the weight of the boom. Not slacking the topping lift on a Nonesuch leads to lousy sail shape and poor performance. Easing the topping lift sufficiently so that it doesn't affect the shape of the sail should also allow the sail to tack or gybe with little issue. The topping lift shouldn't have to flip from side to side on each tack or gybe.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Easing the topping lift sufficiently so that it doesn't affect the shape of the sail should also allow the sail to tack or gybe with little issue.


This is the direction I was leaning. Just slack it off enough that it that sail can take the shape it wants to.

I'm used to the roach on the sail of most boats flipping past the TL when tacking. But on the NS it looks like the best strategy is to slack it sufficiently so it dosent matter which side it is on.

What do you think about the idea of tightening it to get belly in the sail for light winds?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Using a topping lift to support the boom in very light air is a pretty common tactic, and makes good sense-especially on a boat with a self-vanging wishbone setup, which is often heavier than a standard boom.

Clear enough??



davidpm said:


> This is the direction I was leaning. Just slack it off enough that it that sail can take the shape it wants to.
> 
> I'm used to the roach on the sail of most boats flipping past the TL when tacking. But on the NS it looks like the best strategy is to slack it sufficiently so it dosent matter which side it is on.
> 
> What do you think about the idea of tightening it to get belly in the sail for light winds?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Clear enough??


Yes thanks.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I had a Nonsuch 30 for a number of years and just left the topping lift lose enough so it did not chafe on the mainsail. I felt that it was there to hold the wishbone when the sail was down. The whole idea of the Nonsuch is to reduce the string pulling to the absolute minimum. Other than standard reefing all you have are the halyard, the sheet and the outhaul to play with.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

killarney_sailor said:


> I had a Nonsuch 30 for a number of years and just left the topping lift lose enough so it did not chafe on the mainsail. I felt that it was there to hold the wishbone when the sail was down. The whole idea of the Nonsuch is to reduce the string pulling to the absolute minimum. Other than standard reefing all you have are the halyard, the sheet and the outhaul to play with.


Thanks, that what I came up with but since it is not what I'm used to I thought I would ask.


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## BearAway (Mar 6, 2007)

*Nonsuch sail trim*

The sail on a Nonsuch is what we used to call (in early '70s) a high clewed blast reacher (heavy genoa). It is NOT a main. Trimming like a genoa works VERY well. Trimming like a main WILL work . . . but sailing performance will be very greatly diminished.

The sail on a 33 is the equivalent of a 150-160% genoa on an average 40 ft / 12 m mast head rigged cruising yacht from the '80s.

The boom weight certainly affects but was not planned as a method to control trim of the the sail, such as vanging. The wishbone "replaces", at the least, 10 ft / 3 m of hull aft of the clew & boom end to which "missing part of the boat" the genoa sheet would "normally" lead for trimming. You figure out how much that amount of hull and deck would weigh (let alone cost) and the comparatively minimal boom cost and weight is a GREAT trade off !

Ed Botterell (Olympic sailor, then owner of HOOD Canada, and builder of many offshore yacht and one design sails) designed the first Nonsuch sail with a small but useful input from Ted Hood. All the other lofts in the world, combined, have not built as many Nonsuch sails as Botts has ever since 1978.

The boom weight (the aluminum booms are less than 200 hundred pounds on a 33 or 36) is a function of what materials were available (and affordable) in the late '70s. The first boat built, NONSUCH, almost debuted with laminated teak booms a la Windsurfers and Freedom 40s of that vintage. THE FIRST aluminum booms were not "curved" but made up from quite a few welded sections . . . the first booms . . . welded sections ! photo - Nonsuch Photo Galleries photos at pbase.com

The weight of carbon fiber booms on the very small number of boats built post 1990 (many have been semi-customs) is less than an aluminum boom on an average 35 ft / 10 m cruising boat.

The foot of the sail "vangs" the sail.

"Choker" trim (similar to but not the same as an outhaul on a main) helps flatten the sail, closes the leech, and induces "vanging" of the sail.

Toppinglift always WELL EASED after sail is hoisted. Topping lift is for boom support and NEVER comes off when sailing a Nonsuch. It may be calm when you try taking it off but if the breeze comes up, even a bit, you'll never get it back on . . . safely. STAY WELL AWAY from the boom end when the sail is up. The sail on a 33 is the size of a main sail on many current 50 ft / 15 m cruising yachts. Would YOU try to go near, let alone hold onto, the aft end of one of those with the sail up?!?

Topping lift trim and adjustment in light air is very useful . . . IF you know what you are doing. 

I'm 6'2" / 1.8 m and the booms and foot of the sail easily clear above my head on any Nonsuch model . . . 22 through the 40 . . . when I'm standing in the cockpit. I can't say that about many 40 ft / 12 m or larger sloops I've sailed and certainly not about smaller boats !

The most effective way to motor sail a Nonsuch upwind is to flatten the sail (halyard, then cunningham-if rigged, then lots of choker) and then over trim the sheet slightly (boom end just INSIDE a vertical line, relative to the horizon, up from the gunwale).

Most effective way to make down the boom end . . . when sail is down . . . is with a line tightened down hand hard to ONE quarter (not a "bridle" to both quarters) and then trim the sheet till it's hard. The well loaded and triangular configuration secures the boom end VERY well. If you utilize launches on a mooring . . . use the port quarter, which moves the booms off center to port. If you are on a dock . . . use the quarter and move the booms off center away from the side on which you dock.

Currently own 30C on Lake Ontario and 30C on Gulf of Maine plus an assortment of smaller sail boats and wood power launches.

Have also owned 26C, 33, and 30U Nonsuch models.

The Nonsuch "website" I created and manage . . . Nonsuch Photo Galleries's Photo Galleries at pbase.com

Have also owned and/or raced many kinds of sailboats from 10 ft / 3 m to 120 ft / 36 m.

Cheers


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## DOKERBOHM (Nov 9, 2010)

*Can A Small Bow Sprit Be Added To A Nonsuch 33*

iam new to sailing this type of boat nonsuch 33-- wonder if anyone would know if adding a bow spirt with a self tacking arm would work--- like the ones on island pocket boats--- it would give a lift to the bow which i feel sits low in the water at times and also downwind would increase speed any advice would aprrec. from any nonsuch owners of any size on this manner i have a fabracation shop to make it but need to know if the design of the small self tacking jib would things better or worse????????
dok


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

BearAway said:


> Toppinglift always WELL EASED after sail is hoisted. Topping lift is for boom support and NEVER comes off when sailing a Nonsuch.
> 
> I'm 6'2" / 1.8 m and the booms and foot of the sail easily clear above my head on any Nonsuch model . . . 22 through the 40 . . . when I'm standing in the cockpit.


So I am still really confused.
I had the topping lift attached but loose. The boom was sheeted in.
I was motoring with the sail up and the end of the boom was bouncing like a sledge hammer about 3" above my head. I am 5' 11" max

I'm assuming there was something wrong with this boat. What do you suspect it was?


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## BearAway (Mar 6, 2007)

*Nonsuch bowsprit & headsail = NO*

Don't try to fix what ain't broke.

If you want a headsail, buy another boat.


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## BearAway (Mar 6, 2007)

davidpm said:


> So I am still really confused.
> I had the topping lift attached but loose. The boom was sheeted in.
> I was motoring with the sail up and the end of the boom was bouncing like a sledge hammer about 3" above my head. I am 5' 11" max
> 
> I'm assuming there was something wrong with this boat. What do you suspect it was?


The wishbone can NOT bounce much, let alone a lot, with the sheet in trimmed very hard. The masthead will pump in a seaway and as it moves aft, the leech can move down as much as a foot. VERY HARD sheet trim is order of the day in such conditions. If the boom was moving a lot and making the whole rig noisy . . . the sheet was nowhere near hard enough.

Just as you would not motor into the wind and a seaway with a headsail up (nor is it good for any main) you would not do so with the "genoa hybrid" up on a Nonsuch. You CAN motorsail but that means being at least 20 degrees off head to wind.

I've usually found there is not "something wrong" with most boats when there seems to be some problem. I usually found it was an error we as crew made that caused "the problem".


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## BearAway (Mar 6, 2007)

DOKERBOHM said:


> iam new to sailing this type of boat nonsuch 33-- wonder if anyone would know if adding a bow spirt with a self tacking arm would work--- like the ones on island pocket boats--- it would give a lift to the bow which i feel sits low in the water at times and also downwind would increase speed any advice would aprrec. from any nonsuch owners of any size on this manner i have a fabracation shop to make it but need to know if the design of the small self tacking jib would things better or worse????????
> dok


Don't try to fix what ain't broke. Don't waste your good money on a bad idea that won't work and isn't necessary. It will NOT increase speed at all except of the money flowing out of your bank account.

Any of the 30 models weigh six tons. How many pounds of vertical lift do you think your proposed idea would generate. You'd need over 2000 pounds of lift to raise the bow a very little while also pushing the stern sections down into the water.

If you want a boat with a rig like an Island Packet buy an Island Packet. If you want a small head sail on "Hoyt" type jib boom, buy another boat.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

BearAway said:


> Just as you would not motor into the wind and a seaway with a headsail up (nor is it good for any main) you would not do so with the "genoa hybrid" up on a Nonsuch. You CAN motorsail but that means being at least 20 degrees off head to wind.


This was probably the issue. I was not off the wind very much.


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## Brocklee (Feb 14, 2009)

*Re: Nonsuch sail trim*

Hello,
I am very interested in purchasing a nonsuch 33 but wanted your opinion on the carbon fiber masts/booms as opposed to original equipment aluminum mast/boom. Is the carbon fiber an improvement over the aluminum, will it still spill the air sufficiently in gusts, etc. Any advice would be appreciated. 
Thanks........Brock


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## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

davidpm said:


> So I am still really confused.
> I had the topping lift attached but loose. The boom was sheeted in.
> I was motoring with the sail up and the end of the boom was bouncing like a sledge hammer about 3" above my head. I am 5' 11" max
> 
> I'm assuming there was something wrong with this boat. What do you suspect it was?


In addition to the other excellent advice already offered, I'd suggest that you make sure the choker is tightened HARD. If not, the wishbone can bounce around under those conditions.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I think the carbon masts would be a definite upgrade but there were not many made this way. Are you looking at a N33 or N324 (think that is the designation)? The latter is a newer iteration of a N30 with carbon mast. It is not a 33.


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## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

*Re: Nonsuch sail trim*



Brocklee said:


> Hello,
> I am very interested in purchasing a nonsuch 33 but wanted your opinion on the carbon fiber masts/booms as opposed to original equipment aluminum mast/boom. Is the carbon fiber an improvement over the aluminum, will it still spill the air sufficiently in gusts, etc. Any advice would be appreciated.
> Thanks........Brock


I would not want the carbon fiber, but that's just me. My understanding is that the CF mast is stiffer than the aluminum and the point of the mast is to be flexible. More importantly, however, is that the CF can become brittle. One of our members had his CF wishboom shatter for no apparent reason while he was sailing.  I'm not sure that the cause was ever identified, but the speculation was that either the boat had been previously hit by lightning, making the CF wishboom brittle, or had been subject to a some previously unnoticed impact (maybe in the yard) that had caused cracks that finally just failed during his sail.

The 33s are great boats--maybe the best in the Nonsuch line up. I don't need one since the 30 is plenty big enough, but if I had the coin I'd love to have a 33.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

I came to the conclusion that you just can't motor sail to windward with the boom sheeted in hard and the main luffing like you can in some other boats if you are 6' tall.

That combination with the bendy mast means that the end of the boom is bobbing up and down about an inch from your head.


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## whatugonnado (Sep 16, 2005)

If you are motoring to windward with the sail luffing you are not motor sailing, you are motoring with the sail up. I don't know of any sailboat that can motor sail directly into the wind W/O luffing. Am I missing something?


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## pamwrite (Jun 5, 2015)

New to this forum. Can ANYBODY tell me if they have a stern-mounted barbecue on a NONSUCH sailboat? Is there a way to do it without interfering with the mainsheet?


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