# PHRF—What is considered a fast boat?



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I don't race and what I know about racing sailboats fits on the head of a pin and the angels haven't noticed it yet.

A friend of mine just got their boat rated for PHRF racing. Apparently, the boat, which is the same one I have but with laminate not Dacron sails, has been given a provisional rating of 90. Is that considered fast? And if it is, what other boats are in that range???


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

If you're talking about your tri, I'd say a PHRF of 90 is a gift rating for such a boat. Examples:

Carrera 290 102
Dash 34 96
Farr 38 84
Frers 33 102
Henderson 30 87
J105 90

(these numbers from light air So Cal)

Unless you were doing nothing but beating in moderate breezes I'd expect your tri to sail circles around such boats over a typical RTB course.

In the PNW multis are rated, perhaps a bit harshly generally, but at much lower numbers.

As reference, a C&C 29 (older) rates around 190, an SC 50 around 25 or so with many larger newer sleds in the negative numbers. A C&C 37 also rates around 90. These numbers do vary regionally so others will differ.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

*PHRF New England*

You can peruse the NE ratings here PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Not my tri, but the same model I have, with laminate sails. 

Interesting to see what other boats are in that range.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

The old saying goes: "Its not how low your rating number is. It's how fast you sail against it". I'm by no means an expert, but I have been to the PRHF committee a couple of times (C34 National Measurer). PHRF numbers are based on a formula calculated using basic dimensional data of the boat in question (I have it around here somewhere on excel, but I'm too lazy to look for it now). PHRF does not make adjustments for quality of equipment (carbon v. 20 year old Dacron) or condition of the boat (burnished bottom v. a "beard"). The formula breaks down when comparing multi's to mono hulls and here in San Francisco, the multi's race in their own divisions (heck, they even have their own racing association!). Generally, for the "cruiser-racer" production boat, the longer the water line (and subsequent increase in the sail plan) the lower the number. For example, out here the C34 rates144 and the slightly larger C36 is a 140. For comparison, a Areodyne 38 I used to crew on rated a 39 (but she was also a couple thousand pounds lighter than my Catalina), the Santa Cruz 50's are -6, the Farr 40's +2 and Westsail 32s are 225.

Hey, I found the formula!
R' = 610-8.36*(SA/Disp^.333)+0.0000511*(SA^2)-55*(P/(J+E)) -30.8*(LWL^.5)-602*(DR^2/SA)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Very true George.. Last summer we ran down quite a few boats larger that us without much trouble. The only boat that caught us last summer was a Corsair F31, that is rigged for racing.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I went on the American PHRF page (looked for a similar IRC rating and checked what that gives in PHRF...the PHRF rating on my boat would be around -3 !!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> I went on the American PHRF page (looked for a similar IRC rating and checked what that gives in PHRF...the PHRF rating on my boat would be around -3 !!!


That would be with a boom, right??? Right now it's probably about a 50.


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

Giulietta said:


> I went on the American PHRF page (looked for a similar IRC rating and checked what that gives in PHRF...the PHRF rating on my boat would be around -3 !!!


Giu -- You've stolen my answer. I was going to say that any boat with a minus sign in front of their PHRF rating is a fast boat! (And yes, a boom might be helpful.)


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I was looking at an old plastic fantastic (Mac65T "Joss") that rated a -45 but somebody more serious than I apparently beat me to her. Can ya imagine hitting 25+ downwind in a blow with a 65 footer?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

What about 17 to 19 steady downwind on a 42????   

Or 12 to 13 pointing ????


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Giu-

I get 12-13 pointing on a 28' boat.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Ah...yes you can...and I can do 15 on an A class CF XJ Javelin...equal terms my friend...equal terms....

but I do that speed at 25 to 30º off the wind, still beat to port (while you tack half way around the globe)... can carry 12 on board, plus a kid playing Playstation inside, another sleeping on his cot, go out in 10' waves, not reef before 35kts wind, cook dinner standing up, take a shower in 2 heads, sit 8 on my dinning table, sleep 8 confortably inside, fit in my navigation table extend my armas and touch nothing.....and the list goes on and on.....do I compare with a TRI...off course not...wouldn't be fare....


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Oh yeah, well I can stand on one foot, flip burgers on my grill with my right hand, drink Jack Daniels with my left hand, steer with my toes on my other foot, all the time looking behind me. Beat that!! You are just an amature weekender until you can do that!!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

But Giu does it with the sails up.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Werebeagle,

Regarding Giu, it is sail up, not sails. THere is no plural in his sails. He has no boom!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

CD-

He could put up a storm trysail, or sail wing-on-wing with an asymetric and his genoa... so he could have sails up...just not a mainsail


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## Newport41 (Jun 30, 2006)

Oh, I can imgine it. I can also imagine plowing the bow into the back of a wave and death rolling a 65 footer. Don;t get me wrong I like going fast adn I love planing hulls but something about a boat that big, that fast, scares last nights dinner out the bottom end of me. I'd consider a 90 rating pretty quick for a racer/cruiser and I'd give it a fun rating to a race boat, but fast?....well it ain't slow.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Newport-

I wouldn't call my trimaran a racer/cruiser... she's loaded for bear, with tools, solar panels, etc... and sits a bit lower than most of her sisterships...  That's one reason I'm putting new bottom paint on her this month.. to make up for the higher waterline..


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Newport41 said:


> Oh, I can imgine it. I can also imagine plowing the bow into the back of a wave and death rolling a 65 footer. Don;t get me wrong I like going fast adn I love planing hulls but something about a boat that big, that fast, scares last nights dinner out the bottom end of me. I'd consider a 90 rating pretty quick for a racer/cruiser and I'd give it a fun rating to a race boat, but fast?....well it ain't slow.


Actually, when ya plow into that wave, she just drops to about 15 knots instantly which is why ya sleep feet forward when racing. She also will do 12 pointing in 10 knots true which I think is sick as hell. Momma didn't like the plastic interior though and I didn't like the moorage costs so we didn't go there.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

As I said before, it's not your absolute number, It's how well you sail against it. Giu my friend, that -3 rating kills you. The numbers you posted on your upwind/downwind speeds are not sufficient to beat me in my lowly Catalina on corrected time. Worse than that, you have to beat SC 52s and Farr 40s boat for boat. You absolutely do not want to race San Francisco/ Northern California unless you can somehow convince NORCAL PHRF to give you a rating in the 30's. Fortunately for me, the typical 20-30kts winds here tend to favor my somewhat heavier boat and I sail quite well to my rating. Below 10 kts WS and it's another story.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I love when the underdog wins... There was a Nicholson 33 that won the Fastnet race two years ago... thought that was wonderful...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

GeorgeB said:


> As I said before, it's not your absolute number, It's how well you sail against it. Giu my friend, that -3 rating kills you. The numbers you posted on your upwind/downwind speeds are not sufficient to beat me in my lowly Catalina on corrected time. Worse than that, you have to beat SC 52s and Farr 40s boat for boat. You absolutely do not want to race San Francisco/ Northern California unless you can somehow convince NORCAL PHRF to give you a rating in the 30's. Fortunately for me, the typical 20-30kts winds here tend to favor my somewhat heavier boat and I sail quite well to my rating. Below 10 kts WS and it's another story.


Well yes...its a good point...however....not everyone can play guitar like Clapton....

Like I said, I compared my actual rating with a similar one on that PHRF page...I'd still race you  

I normally race similar boats only...not club races or cruiser races


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

PHRF is a measurement system designed and established in order to let errant sailors know how far they strayed from the true path of righteousness. As the CS 30 has been indisputably acknowledged as the ideal hull form, married with an optimum performance level, degree of comfort, beauty and all around perfection, those who have made purchasing errors and wound up with other boats, need to know the extent of their sins.

Hence we have PHRF, IRC, etc. ad nauseum. The CS 30 was placed on a pedestal, in the center. As there were roughly 281 boat models in production at the time, the CS 30 was assigned number 141, right in the middle - the number one on either side of, and of lesser stature than the number 4 - a symbolic indication of the raising of the boat above lesser objects on either side of it.

To Port (the 'high-side') were placed the slower, yet stoutly built and, in a dated sort of way, pretty-looking boats. Seaworthy vessels to be sure, some even approaching the utopia that is the CS 30, but still falling short in some detail or other.

As the shortcomings were primarily determined to be an excess of weight or ornament, points were assigned on the positive, or high side of 141 to indicate how many excess issues there were with the boat. Hence the Westsail 32, while undeniably a seaworthy and good-looking boat, can only be termed an "obese" craft and numerous points have been assigned to it as a gentle, yet constant reminder that the health of the vessel may be well-improved through shedding some of that poundage.

Conversely, to Starboard of 141, the term low-side is used to indicate those boats whose owners have stooped to the lower, less ethical methods of trying to achieve nirvana in yacht design. The sins here are numerous and run the gamut from minor to egregious. Points have been deducted accordingly.

Those whose sins were merely the creation of an unneccessarily large yacht have been punished less severely than those who have gone so far as to defy nature and incorporate materials other than pure, simple God-given fibreglass in the construction of their pitifully grotesque craft. Thus, we see that something like a C&C 38, while undeniably a study in excess, has merely lost a few points, while the diabolical creations called sleds by their miscreant sponsors are well and truly exposed. These radical departures from the innate principles of both physics and civil chemistry have been mercilessly penalised, the truly evil even having been assigned scores in the negative integers.

Of late, these creatures of darkness, not content with hiding their nefarious compounds of carbon and kevlar in the bilges where they belong, have begun flagrantly displaying their (literally) black arts, disguised as masts or booms, in plain view of the decent folk who are merely attempting to spend a pleasant family afternoon in a communal harbour. How can they be expected to explain these abominations to their children ????

Finally, if we dig to the bottom of the muck and mire, we find true mutants, lacking in decency and refusing to adhere to the most basic of established boatbuilding norms and credos. This gash heap of humanity has gone so far as to construct vessels with more than one hull, and not a keel to be found amongst them.

They offer the excuse of "reducing wetted surface". Well, surely the touch of righteous waters must sear the souls of these unnatural objects, so it is understandable that they would try to minimise their agony. Occasionally we read about one who, unable to countenance the continued torture of existence, turns turtle forever, so that their hulls might never have to feel the pain of truth and decency ever again.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Sailormann....that was trully an award winning post...very very very funny...  (you have a friend here).

I really liked it....

By the way...you're wrong about the number....141 means that a boat with a rating of "0" (zero) will sail around you 141 times in one mile!!!

he larger the number, the more times it will be circled....
In my case 141 + (-3) = 144 circles around you !!!


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Sailormann said:


> PHRF is a measurement system designed and established in order to let errant sailors know how far they strayed from the true path of righteousness. As the CS 30 has been indisputably acknowledged as the ideal hull form, married with an optimum performance level, degree of comfort, beauty and all around perfection, those who have made purchasing errors and wound up with other boats, need to know the extent of their sins.
> 
> Hence we have PHRF, IRC, etc. ad nauseum. The CS 30 was placed on a pedestal, in the center. As there were roughly 281 boat models in production at the time, the CS 30 was assigned number 141, right in the middle - the number one on either side of, and of lesser stature than the number 4 - a symbolic indication of the raising of the boat above lesser objects on either side of it.
> 
> ...


And while the commonly , and profusly used phrase, and it's inherant explitive, "BS" was already taken, they opted for the Olde English varient of said phrase "Complete ****" or just "CS" for short.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Giu - Thanks - just trying to help the newbies learn properly 

T34C



> And while the commonly , and profusly used phrase, and it's inherant explitive, "BS" was already taken, they opted for the Olde English varient of said phrase "Complete ****" or just "CS" for short.


It's okay to admit a little envy ...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I have to give Sailormann a point for his response to T34C... well done...


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Sailormann said:


> T34C
> 
> It's okay to admit a little envy ...


Sailormann- Right now I envy anyone who has a boat actually in the water!!!! I'd almost take that h30 the CG rescued over in the Cruising thread, OK not really. Your prior post was a prime example of Bovine Scattlogy.


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