# Single Handed Cruiser Choices, Realities & Compromises



## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

Hi Every one
I guess I need to start with my situation, needs, & wants. 
I'm new to sailing. It's been an interest on and off since I was in my teens. I'm now in full-on midlife crisis. Work is a horrible travisty of all that's holy on a daily basis. I can't emphasize this enough. I don't want to reach the end of my life in a house full of junk & no life experience. I never went to college. (At least for a full degree or even close to it, Just what interested me. I could never discover a course of study I could stomach that would be worth while economically.) None the less my job has decent pay for someone without a college background. My soul is left dying.
Bad Timing- I know, But I'm almost ready to sell my house for less than I could If I just could wait a few years. This will only allow for a very well priced older boat. Maybe 20,000 or so. 
I know, I know. Sweat equity OK, but it has to float.
I'm Taking classes to learn to sail. I just wouldn't feel comfortable without a foundation to grow on. But here is what I need-

Rig- About the simplest rigging for a single hander. I'm single, I need to be able to sail it independantly. I don't want sailing to be a struggle. Being able to reef in a hurry is important for safety's sake. I'd rather not die of procrastination. Remember, I'm still an inexperienced neophite. I've read a bit, But hands on is still a work in progress. The Cat Ketch seems to get good marks. So does a fractional Bermuda Rig. The Junk sounds good. Especially with reguard to maintenace costs. Something that will always likely be the real struggle. Speed is nice & the CK & FB sail to windward better. Speed is not the most important factor, Safety, Ease of singlehanding, & Cost of maintenace are. Also, Older Junks are few & far between.

Use- While I'd love to sail around the world & Not in race fashion. It would be a great personal acheivement. In practice I veiw cruising as going from place to place, not a distance goal. I would start by Island hoping the caribbean. Also, I just can't seem to shake the need to Island hop the south pacific. While I definately want to see the caribbean. There's really are limited number of islands. The islands of the south pacific are nearly innumerable. This means blue water from the caribbean to the south pacific. Also, I don't want to be forever parted from the US. I'll need to make that jouney from time to time. This means multiple blue water travels. Also, It's important to note- The Islands of the south pacific have extensive reefs with very shallow waters surrounding them. 10 more feet away from shore & your in blue water. These are under water mountian peaks with the tops capped by islands. This makes the versitility of the boat very impotant. Swing keels seem doudtful as they come with their own problems. Damage potential, Cost of maintenance, & also Far & few between among the used beauties out there. This on top of the need for a boat that also meets the rigging requirements.

Size- We all like room to move about. I'm single but not forever. The boat will be my home. I need it to be comfortable as a liveaboard. Small size is a bonus for both initial cost & maintenence cost, But I do need to live. Don't forget that my Blue water travels will only be to get to the next stop or area, not my life mission. I would like to make passages as safely as possible. But if I can't go from island to Island & mysterious shore to shore, Why Cruise?! 

Hailing all those that would chime in. With all the above in mind, What would be my best reletively common choices out there that would meet these needs? And also, What would be the pros & cons of each choice?

If I've left anything unclear, Just ask.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A good choice would be an Alberg 30. Carl Alberg didn't know how to design an ugly boat. One in decent shape would fall within your budget and probably leave you a bit leftover for modifications/refitting/upgrades. 

They're pretty solid, definitely bluewater capable, and large enough for you to liveaboard. 

Other good choices would be the Southern Cross 28/31, although you have to be careful since this was designed with an Airex cored hull, and water intrusion into the hull laminate is a potential problem.

The Westsail 32 is another possibility, but probably out of your price range. The Cape Dory line of boats are another good option, as are the Pearson Tritons and Ariels, but the Ariels are a bit tight on space.

You really should check out John Vigor's 20 Small Sailboats To Take you Anywhere... as many of these boats I've listed are there. 

All of the boat's I've listed are basic sloop-rigged boats... single mast, head sail, main sail... fairly simple to rig, fairly simple to sail. 

I hope this helps.


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

Any of these fractional rigs? Many people give them good marks for singlehanded sailing. Plus safety for a number of reasons.
Thank You


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

For the life of me I can’t think of any advantages to a fractional rig. It’s more complicated because of diamonds or running backstays, forces you to have a smaller spinnaker with more chance of fouling the chute in the rigging. More chafe problems for a large Genoa. Introduces a large twisting moment in the rig when you reef the main. Makes the distribution of sail area very unequal and the center of effort may jump forward if you reduce sail enough and don’t have a trysail available. The rig was designed as a way to cheat the then current racing rule and had no intrinsic value outside of racing.

Now having said all that several of my boats have been rigged that way including the 22 footer I sailed to England during my first solo trans-Atlantic. She was so well balanced that I didn’t need to take a self-steering gear but instead did the entire trip by balancing the sailplan and letting the boat sail herself. In this particular case the hull and rig were designed to interact perfectly and she was a beautiful boat to both see and sail.

What have you heard about the rig that appeals to you? I think the Dog got it right when the pointed you towards the Alberg 30. A very nice boat and capable of going anywhere you want. Some of the other boats he mentioned are double enders and I don’t care for the style. Most of then drag a good part of the ocean with them, are slow and somewhat unsafe *** in extreme conditions. I know this flies in the face of popular thought but most double enders are not designed like the original sailing lifeboats and lack their good qualities but do copy their shortcomings.
All the best,
Robert Gainer

***
Edited to add this note, Unsafe is too strong a word but I can’t think of a better one.

***


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## southerncross31 (Sep 16, 2006)

TC...the Southern cross 31 and westsail 32 would be better in heavy weather than just about any other boats out there.....what leads you to the conclusion that they are unsafe in exterme conditions? Surely they are much better off that any fin keel boat! It is true there were poorly made double enders in the 70's all trying to be like the westsails. They were poorly designed and too heavy. On the other hand, one of the most popular performance cruisers out there...the Valiant
(40 & 42) is a double ender. The best part of a double ender if how easy it is to change the packing in the stuffing box  They also look so much better than a flat transom...or most swim platforms for that matter. On the SC31 the huge rudder hanging from the back of the boat is what does it for me.


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

southerncross31 said:


> TC...the Southern cross 31 and westsail 32 would be better in heavy weather than just about any other boats out there.....what leads you to the conclusion that they are unsafe in exterme conditions? Surely they are much better off that any fin keel boat! It is true there were poorly made double enders in the 70's all trying to be like the westsails. They were poorly designed and too heavy. On the other hand, one of the most popular performance cruisers out there...the Valiant
> (40 & 42) is a double ender. The best part of a double ender if how easy it is to change the packing in the stuffing box  They also look so much better than a flat transom...or most swim platforms for that matter. On the SC31 the huge rudder hanging from the back of the boat is what does it for me.


I like the Southern Cross and would take her anywhere under any conditions. Not only is she a great looking boat but also she is very well designed and built. As a group however the double enders have several fallings and this is just an opinion of mine and doesn't mean they are bad boats just not to my liking.

Narrow aft deck.
Awkward to mount windvave steering system. More dangerous to work aft during bad weather while setting a drag device (take your pick of device) or adjusting windvane.

Buttocks aren't flat aft and the quarter wave comes up. 
More drag and slower boat. With the right wave shape more likely to poop then a boat with more buoyancy and smaller quarter wave. On the other hand they might have slightly less tendency to brooch then a transom stern.

Less beam in the after third of the boat. 
Less width for running backs while using storm sails. Tendency to hobbyhorse. Less storage volume and more sensitive to distribution of weight.

Bob Perry has several very nice boats without transoms. But I think they would all be called canoe sterns not double enders. Not my first choice but very capable boats and I don't put them into the same category as the Westsail or any other overweight and deficient copies of the Colin Archer designed Redningsselskapet class of rescue boat. And sorry but I don't like the Westsail at all. Just overweight slow boats that survive by using sheer brute force and weight. They are small inside and have no redeeming features at all. There are much better boats for the job that are also strong and will survive but by grace and intelligence instead of just brute force.

The outboard rudder you like is an interesting feature. It is easer to fix or replace at sea and has advantages when it comes to a windvae system. On the other hand is it more likely to get damaged then a rudder protected by the counter and hung behind a skeg?

Sorry if I have said anything that distresses you but boats are a funny thing and what is one person's favorite is just another boat to someone else. My likes and dislikes don't indicate that someone else's boat is good or bad, just maybe different then mine.
All the best,
Robert Gainer


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## southerncross31 (Sep 16, 2006)

No problem, i just wanted to stand up for my little boat . The rudder is hung off of the back of the keel by 2 sets of pintles and gudgeons. It is a very robust design with the base stepped up from the bottom of the keel to prevent grounding damage. The thing i like is that there isn't a hole through the boat for the rudder tube! 
My taste in boats tends to be very traditional, so most of the new boats i see just don't do it for me (except the new, dare i say, Bene First 50). I like the look of Pacific Seacraft, Shannon, IP, Valiant though. My favorite....the one i hope to own someday is the SC39...what a beautiful boat.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I keep seeing reference to the Alberg 30 as a great single-handed offshore boat. Having spent gobs of time on these boats, I just don't get it. These boats have enormous weather helm, and don't track worth a darn. Upwind they are very poor in a chop or in big seas pitching themselves to a near stop and they are very prone to broaching in quartering and following seas. For their displacement they have limited carrying capacity due to their short waterlines. These are beefy boats to sail requiring large sail inventories and frequent sail changes to deal with the kinds of changing consditions one is likely to encounter on the kinds of trips being described above. Their short waterline and pinched transom make carrying a dinghy very difficult. But beyond all that, these boats just were not all that well built and they are now 40 or so years old. The ones that I have been on in recent years have been real wrecks, with the exception of a couple that had been taken apart, in the case of one, the rudder and rotted bulkheads replaced, internal stiffeners added in the bow and run, and both were generally upgraded and restored for racing purposes.

I also want to touch on the fractional rig discussion. Fractional rigs were the typical rig employed in small working watercraft and for cruising boats in the days before there were racing rules. For example go back and look at any of Alden or Rhodes' pre WWII cruising sloops or ketches, or small cruising boats like the Folkboat.

It was only with the advent of the CCA rule (and later IOR rule), which did not include the full overlap of headsails and spinnakers that masthead rigs became popular as CCA rule beaters. The masthead rig only existed because it could beat the popular racing rules of the 1950's through 1980's.

Its only when the rating rules went back to including all sail area in the rating calculation, that fractional rigs came back into popularity in race boats. They came back for the same reasons that they make sense on cruising boats namely a smaller more efficient sail plan, and greater ease of tacking and jibing, combined with the ability shift gears more quickly without doing sail changes.

Robert Gainer's experience with a superbly balanced fractional rig is more the norm than the exception.

Modern fractional rigs do not have jumper struts or running backstays. The exception to that is that offshore, some fractional rigged boats employ runners in very heavy going in the same way that cutters are forced to use runners for their staysails in heavy going. In the case of the Fractional rig the geometry of these runners are such that they do not need to be slacked and made up on each tack.

Today, many of the best of the current generation of cruising boat designers have returned to the fractional rig for its ease of handling. simplicity, lower cost, reduced stress on the hull and deck, and its ability to deal with changing conditions more easily. I am not sure how helpful this will be but below is an exerpt from a draft of an article that I wrote for another venue that talks about rigs. 

_"Cutter and Sloop rig_

_These are the most common rigs being produced today. In current usage these terms are applied quite loosely as compared to their more traditional definitions. Traditionally the sloop rig was a rig with a single mast located forward of 50% of the length of the sailplan. In this traditional definition a sloop could have multiple jibs. Cutters had a rig with a single mast located 50% of the length of the sailplan or further aft, multiple headsails and in older definitions, a reefing bowsprit (a bowsprit that could be withdrawn in heavy going). Somewhere in the 1950's or 1960's there was a shift in these definitions such that a sloop only flew one headsail and a cutter had multiple headsails and mast position became irrelevant. For the sake of this discussion I assume we are discussing the modern definition of a sloop and a cutter._

_Historically, when sail handling hardware was primitive and sails were far more stretchy than they are today, the smaller headsails and mainsail of a traditional cutter were easier to handle and with less sail stretch, allowed earlier cutters to be more weatherly (sail closer to the wind) than the sloops of the day. With the invention of lower stretch sailcloth and geared winches, cutters quickly lost their earlier advantage. _

_Today sloops are generally closer winded and easier to handle. Their smaller jibs and larger mainsail sailplan are easier to power up and down. Without a jibstay to drag the Genoa across, sloops are generally easier to tack. With less hardware sloops are less expensive to build. _

_Sloops come in a couple varieties, masthead and fractional. In a masthead rig the forestay and jib originates at the masthead. In a fractional rig, the forestay originated some fraction of the mast height down from the masthead. Historically, sloops were traditionally fractionally rigged. Fractional rigs tend to give the most drive per square foot of sail area. Their smaller jibs are easier to tack and they reef down to a snug masthead rig. Today they are often proportioned so that they do not need overlapping headsails, making them even easier to sail. One of the major advantages of a fractional rigs is the ability when combined with a flexible mast, is the ability to use the backstay to control mast bend. Increasing backstay tension does a lot of things on a fractional rig: it tensions the forestay flattening the jib, and induces mast bend, which flattens the mainsail and opens the leech of the sail. This allows quick depowering as the wind increases and allows a fractional rig to sail in a wider wind speed range than masthead rig without reefing, although arguably requiring a bit more sail trimming skills. _

_While fractional rigs used to require running backstays, better materials and design approaches have pretty much eliminated the need for running backstays. That said, fractional rigs intended for offshore use, will often have running backstays that are only rigged in heavy weather once the mainsail has been reefed. The geometry of these running backstays typically allows the boat to be tacked without tacking the running backstays. _

_Masthead rigs came into popularity in the 1950's primarily in response to racing rating rules that under-penalized jibs and spinnakers and so promoted bigger headsails. Masthead sloops tend to be simpler rigs to build and adjust. They tend to be more dependent on large headsails and so are harder to tack and also require a larger headsail inventory if performance is important. Mast bend is harder to control and so bigger masthead rigs will often have a babystay that can be tensioned to control pumping and to induce mast bend in the same way as the geometry of a modern fractional rig. Dragging a Genoa over the babystay makes tacking a bit more difficult and slower. While roller furling allows a wider wind range for a given Genoa, there is a real limit (typically cited 10% to 15%) to how much a Genoa can be roller furled and still maintain a safely flat shape. _

_Cutters, which had pretty much dropped out of popularity during a period from the end of WWII until the early 1970's, came back into popularity with a vengeance in the early 1970's as an offshore cruising rig. In theory, the presence of multiple jibs allows the forestaysail to be dropped or completely furled, and when combined with a reefed mainsail, and the full staysail, results in a very compact heavy weather rig (similar to the proportions of a fractional rigged sloop with a reef in the mainsail). As a result the cutter rig is often cited as the ideal offshore rig. While that is the theory, it rarely works out that the staysail is properly proportioned, (either too small for normal sailing needs and for the lower end of the high wind range (say 20-30 knots) or too large for higher windspeeds) and of a sail cloth that makes sense as a heavy weather sail or which is too heavy for day to day sailing in more moderate conditions. Also when these sails are proportioned small enough to be used as heavy weather sails, these rigs will often develop a lot of weather helm when being sailed in winds that are too slow to use a double reefed mainsail. Like fractional rigs, cutter rigs intended for offshore use, will often have running backstays that are only rigged in heavy weather once the mainsail has been reefed. Unlike the fractional rig, the geometry of these running backstays typically requires that the running backstays be tacked whenever the boat is tacked. _

_Cutters make a less successful rig for coastal sailing. Generally cutters tend to have snug rigs that depend on larger Genoas for light air performance. Tacking these large Genoas through the narrow slot between the jibstay and forestay is a much harder operation than tacking a sloop. As a result many of today's cutters have a removable jibstay that can be rigged in heavier winds. This somewhat reduces the advantage of a cutter rig (i.e. having a permanently rigged and ready to fly small, heavy weather jib). _

_Cutters these days generally do not point as close to the wind as similar sized sloops. Because of the need to keep the slots of both headsails open enough to permit good airflow, the headsails on a cutter cannot be sheeted as tightly as the jib on a sloop without choking off the airflow in the slot. Since cutters are generally associated with the less efficient underbodies that are typical of offshore boats this is less of a problem that it might sound. Cutters also give away some performance on deep broad reaches and when heading downwind because the Genoa acts in the bad air of the staysail. "_

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

Please take this the right way, but I think you're focusing on the details and missing the "big picture".

Double-ender or not, Perry made some half-way decent designs, deal with it. Most of his "double-enders" are boats that I wouldn't hesitate to take out in a real big blow, go ahead and say that about most other designers. I've been on Albergs and they're stout... to say the least. Do they sail the "best"? Who really knows.

Fract vs full, in real world applications, doesn't amount to a tinkers dam of a difference. I know this is going to cause the "purists" to gasp in horror, but really, can you say with certainty that one has distinct and measurable differences? What, an extra half know under idea trim? oh, get over it. You're not going to out run the rain and wind. Find a boat that will let you live thru it. 
If there were distinct and measurable differences, every builder known to man would be building only *one* type. It all has to do with APPLICATION. What might be the best for a Farr38 or a J/Boat might not be the best for oh, I dunno, a Hunter, CSY, or a Frogbobber 41. Remember, different purposes.

Read the OP's post, he wants the KISS principle, and cares more for ease of use rather than speed, God love him, a man after my own thoughts.

The Cat-Ketch might be a viable alternative (not because I have one either) They are very easy to sail, perform reasonably well, are well built (stay away from the knock offs)

The only down side for me is the weight of the sails, and that may be because I have the original HEAVY DOUBLE PLY wrap arounds, and I'm a bit "weaker" than most people. Big winches, long handles and or 'lectric is the way to go.

good luck and fair winds, eh? 
I need a nap.


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

Count on a month to reach any Pacific Island and two months to get back to the US from any other group so you won't be doing much commuting, even if you had the money.
Golden sands, palm trees and hula girls are a nice escapist fantasy from depression and a hated job. However with all due respect running away to sea is no answer. It sounds like you need a plan to make your life more satisfying. Maybe part-time study with the benefit of age, a new job and a little romance, plus some crewing for others might get you started on a new path.


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

Jeff H said,
Fractional rigs were the typical rig employed in small working watercraft and for cruising boats in the days before there were racing rules. For example go back and look at any of Alden or Rhodes' pre WWII cruising sloops or ketches, or small cruising boats like the Folkboat. 


Jeff,
First I want to say that there’s no accounting for taste is there. I like the Alberg 30 and have enjoyed sailing on one but that’s neither here nor there. I think likes and dislikes depend and where you were raised and the boats in style when you started sailing. But I don’t hold this against you and I do enjoy reading your stuff.

You need to look farther back to see the development of the rig then just our lifetime. I don’t think the fractional rig existed before the invention of sailtrack by Nat Herreshoff in 1887 and that one change certainly revolutionized rig design more then anything else in history. Before that the sail hoops had to slide all the way to the masthead along with the jaws of the gaff. And leg of mutton or lateen rigs also had components sliding up the mast so a headstay needed to be near the top of the stick. The rig we think of today as fractional is comparatively new but I think it’s an outgrowth of racing not working watercraft. There are no examples of working watercraft that I know of that had a fractional rig before 1910 and it was already used in racing boats long before that date. And of course rules to rate boats date back well before 1854 and the idea of a rule beater came along when Jullanar was designed by Bentall in 1875. All of this was well before the times you are thinking about.

The cruising boats you point to were designed well after the rig was popular in Europe and it devolved there as a result of the rules in use at the time. The rig does have its advantages such as greater control of mast bend then the masthead rig but it’s not as efficient as an overlapping Genoa if you don’t penalize area. In the rules that limit sail area you see smaller jibs and fractional rigs while in the boats designed with fewer limits on area you see overlapping headsails and masthead rigs. Since the idea of rule beaters was established in 1875 all kinds of tricks have been tried and a fractional rig is just another rule beater.
All the best,
Robert Gainer


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Don't try to have the first boat "do it all". If you find the cruising lifestyle to your liking, you can upgrade to a better boat later after you have determined your own tastes and needs. In the meantime your budget will control and move you as much as any advice here.
pigslo


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

pigslo said:


> Don't try to have the first boat "do it all". If you find the cruising lifestyle to your liking, you can upgrade to a better boat later after you have determined your own tasres and needs. In the meantime your budget will control and move you as much as any advice here.
> pigslo


Pigslo has a good point...which is also echoed by Don Casey in This Old Boat, his book about buying an older boat. He makes the point that most boat owners buy a first boat.... learn a lot about their likes/dislikes, and their sailing requirements and then buy a second boat based on what they learned from the first boat. The first boat, according to Casey, is kept for a relatively short period of time, and the second boat is the one that is cherished and used for decades... of course, there are some people who just keep buying bigger and bigger boats....like Cruisingdad...because they've run out of railing space for the additional BBQ grills.

BTW, CD, I just got a BBQ grill for the boat... will post a photo of it when she's back in the water.


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

The Cat-Ketch might be a viable alternative (not because I have one either) They are very easy to sail, perform reasonably well, are well built (stay away from the knock offs)
The only down side for me is the weight of the sails, and that may be because I have the original HEAVY DOUBLE PLY wrap arounds, and I'm a bit "weaker" than most people. Big winches, long handles and or 'lectric is the way to go. 

Cardiacpaul
When you say "stay away from knock offs" What do you mean. Knock offs of what? What older production Cat Ketch boats are the ones you would suggest and which ones would you not and why? Older is OK, I can't escape my price range, But sea worthy is a must. Also, KISS is fundamental in my thinking. I'm not familiar with "HEAVY DOUBLE PLY wrap arounds" or what exactly that refers to. I don't mind larger winches. Electric seems like potential for breakdown. I'm new!!! How are Cat Ketches to reef? How do sail replacement costs compare to Fractional or bermuda rigs. The thing that's nice about junk rigs is that I could patch or even make new sails out of old discarded sail material. Now that's cost effective. I don't know of anything that can compare to that. Problem- Junks are next to imposible to find and one on a hull that meets the other requirements. I just don't see it happening. I read one post that makes a good point against the junk. That is that in a blow you may really need to sail to windward to avoid rocks, shore or some other hazzard. Speed isn't that important but death or shipwreck is. Is this an overblown concern? is 45 degrees to the wind that much worse than 38. See problem above. I guess I digress. Back on topic.
Cat ketches- 
Good and safe sail anywhere hulls, 
Cost of rigs & maintenance,
Live aboard- sailing as nescisary
KISS


Chris
I didn't mean to imply a regular commute. And your right, Money is a real Issue. That said, I need to escape this stale life. I'll never travel the stars but to sail the sea is much the same thing. I still don't have a good choice of study. Anything I can think of to make money is ultimately just as dry as the desert I'm in. Only a poor pay rate can hope to satify, but then I starve and die of some illness without the benefit of healthcare. Maybe I can't sail all the time but, I don't see why I can't hold down a job in a port city as well as any other. Texas has good slip rates. Probably other places as well. Honestly IT work in a port I base myself in is likely the best choice after some study, but I have volumes to study before that has a chance of going anywhere. right now I sell furniture. About half of it online. I've also learned a fair bit about common carrier shipping. I've become a misenthrope for lack of better words. I need some solitude. I really need to only deal with people directly as little as possible. Boat maintenance and associated costs are a very serious issue I don't have all the answers for. Not to mention food, Healthcare etc. All suggestions are welcome, But I need to change.

Thanks to everone who has posted and continues to post. I'll continue to hang on every word. Being new, practical examples are most excellent.


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

pigslo & Sailingdog-
I'll probably need to make my 1st boat my last. Unless I'm somehow able to start some kind of online business or gain an education in which I could telecommute. Has anyone looked at tha costs involved in online service at sea? Now that's overhead. Maybe it's posible to trade up in some measure. At least as far as taste. The waters a little choppy on this point. 
At the end of my life. My house full of stuff. Having worked hard & worked up to a house I can show off with pride. When I give an account to the Lord, Him asking what did I do with my life. I'll have to proudly look up and say 
"I watched TV"


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## Stryker72 (Jun 6, 2007)

I am curious to see what you think of a Bayfield 32 and how that would or would not fit his needs. It is a boat I have been looking at and I would like to do something similiar to what the SandS has in mind.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

_Cardiacpaul
When you say "stay away from knock offs" What do you mean. Knock offs of what? What older production Cat Ketch boats are the ones you would suggest and which ones would you not and why? Older is OK, I can't escape my price range, _

Stay with the Hoyt designed Freedoms built by TPI, there are other brands out there, some built far offshore, some built rather close to home, but IMHO run with the one that started it, eh?

As far as budget, they are more expensive (and popular on the east coast and in the UK than almost anywhere else in the country, but "deals" can be had.

_But sea worthy is a must. Also, KISS is fundamental in my thinking. I'm not familiar with "HEAVY DOUBLE PLY wrap arounds" or what exactly that refers to. I don't mind larger winches. Electric seems like potential for breakdown. I'm new!!! How are Cat Ketches to reef?_

They are very seaworthy. The earlier models had a centerboard that some people thought was a pain in the a** so later models came with a fin keel. The centerboard models had the advantage of drawing a little over 3.5 ft but it was a bit intrusive in the cabin. The fin keels draw a little over 4.5 ft.

The original sails are 2 ply, with a pocket that slides up and down the mast. Many mid-80's boats still have them. I don't know of anyone that will make OE replacements, but a company near Rochester NY (Haarstick) makes replacements. You'd have to refit your masts to handle a track. Not a real big deal, but be prepared for a "cost" (figure around 12-15k for sails and the tracks+ install)

Sail weight. Yes, they're heavy. very heavy. TheCuban, at 5-4, and 120sumpin hasn't got many problems with Bariant 32's (almost 9in at the base) 2 speed winch and a long handle, but she wouldn't want to do it more than twice a day. I can do the main, rest a bit, have a coke and a smoke then rasie the second. So your mileage may vary.

Reefing is simple, they typically put in 2 reef points with downhauls for each leading back to the cockpit. (yea, thats a lot of lines, deal with it  )

_"I guess I digress. Back on topic.
Cat ketches- Good and safe sail anywhere hulls, Cost of rigs & maintenance,
Live aboard- sailing as nescisary KISS"_

Build quality in my opinion is really good. The carbon fiber unstayed masts were a cause for concern, remember this was the early 80's so it was an "unknown" then. The benefit (for me) is lack of rigging, ease of walking about on the deck. The bene for TheCuban is lots of places to try to get skin cancer.
The original owners had a lifetime warranty, I know of 2 out of about 600 masts that failed early on, so its not a concern for me.

Over the years the TPI operation built well over 15,000 boats, power and sail, under brands such as J-Boats, Pearson, Alerion Express, Alden, Freedom, Jeanneau and Rampage. (now pearson composites)

The Freedoms are a bit of an odd-duck, thats part of their charm for me, but, they're also livable. TheCuban would rather spend a week on that than in a holiday inn, if that tells you anything. The vee-berth is comfy with wide access you don't need to be a cirque du soleil performer to get in and out. The interior wood is light, adding implied space. There are lots of little cubbies to stow things. (needles to say, I can never find a darn thing after she gets thru "putting everything away")

I know it sounds a bit like a sales pitch, but I think for first-timers that have the "bug" and want to give it a serious shot, you could do a lot worse.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

So when all is said and done about masthead v. fractional rig v. cat ketch v. junk, you want a blue water cruiser for about 20K? Pearson Triton. You can get one in need of TLC for about 10K and have a lot of $ left over to refit and stock the kitty. Or, you can find one fully tricked out for cruising probably still for less than 20K. Not that much less room inside than the Alberg 30 previously discussed, and there are a lot more of them available for sale. There were two distinct flavors of Triton made, one on the east coast, and one on the west. The east coast version is a little lighter and has more exterior brightwork. The west coast version was made heavier to deal with the winds in San Francisco bay; the easiest way to tell the difference is by the cockpit coamings (the "back rests" in the cockpit). On the east coast Tritons, they were wood (mahogany I think); west coast boats have fiberglass coamings. If you are planning on going offshore and you have the ability to shop for a boat in California (that's where most of them seem to be), go with the west coast version.


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

It always surprises me how modern progress is measured. In the early 80’s we had the breakthough boat designed by the wiz kid from MIT, Jerry Milgram, which was built of Airex and glass by Alan Vaitses. That winning rule beater called Cascade was a cat ketch and raised a lot of eyebrows at the time. I think the modern cat ketch only exists today because of him. But nowadays almost everybody forgets Commodore Munroe's Presto boats such as Egret in the late 1800’s, which for a short time had the same popularity and press as Cascade had when she was winning on the racecourse. And that cat ketch in the late 1800’s was going to change the nature of boats forever the same way Cascade was going to change things in the early 80’s. 

History just keeps repeating itself because everybody forgets what came before. The cat ketch isn’t anything special and it was popular in working watercraft such as the sharpie for a reason. But that reason isn’t valid in a yacht and the rig didn’t have staying power in the 1800’s and it isn’t popular today. If you like a cat ketch go for it and enjoy yourself but it isn’t a magic answer. I happen to like the sharpie style and we just built one to my design in our shop last year and we will be building another one soon.

I don’t know how well a carbon fiber mast will hold up in the long term but we have two of them sitting under the mast rack now. An unstayed carbon fiber rig will flex unlike a rig with stays. Carbon fiber is subject to fatigue and I suspect that the mast will not last as long as a conventional rig. I don’t know this to be true but I would not plan on having a freestanding carbon fiber mast forever. 

Does the ability to claw off a lee shore matter? If you have an engine it doesn’t matter as much but having good ability to windward is worthwhile and adds a safety margin to the package. I enjoy sailing and some of my trips have been done in engineless boats. That forces you to plan ahead and sail much more conservatively. My first solo trans-Atlantic was in a unpowered 22 foot sailboat. I would not hesitate to sail a good boat anywhere even if she had no engine but she would have to be very good to windward in all conditions. I also think you need to sail a boat with an engine in such a way that the loss of the engine does not mean the loss of the boat.

Make your own sails for the junk rig? If you can do that then you can make your own sails for a masthead-rigged sloop. Sail making is simple but tedious and anyone with reasonable skills can make sails that will work. Win in a race, maybe not, but almost certainly you can make sails that will work for cruising.

Pigslo does have a good point. I think all you can do at this point is ask a lot of questions and at best you will understand what you are getting into but you will still not “know” how it works until you sail the boat and see if the amount of room and the rig is suitable for you. You are the only one that can answer that question. Keep asking qustens and try to get a ride on as many different boats as you can to get some real world experience.
All the best,
Robert Gainer


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## toddrtownsend (Jun 13, 2006)

*Go For It!*

I am in a similar situation. I've already quit and bought the boat.

The trouble I ran into is NO WORK near the boat. I spent a month in Bay City, MI seeking employment and there was none. Having a very stable work history, I choose to blame the Michigan economy. ) I am driving a truck right now. I'll sock my cash away for a year or so and work on the boat weekends.

I can't tell you the relief and comfort in starting the journey. I hit a snag but I am working toward being on the boat and my life is completely better. Work sucked like you describe; I'm better off and healthier being rid of it.

I'll be in the Carribean by late 2008 and then I'll decide where to next.

Good Luck!

TrT


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Keep us posted TRT...and how is the refitting of the new beastie going??


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

cardiacpaul


> The original sails are 2 ply, with a pocket that slides up and down the mast. Many mid-80's boats still have them. I don't know of anyone that will make OE replacements, but a company near Rochester NY (Haarstick) makes replacements. You'd have to refit your masts to handle a track. Not a real big deal, but be prepared for a "cost" (figure around 12-15k for sails and the tracks+ install)


What are "OE" replacements? The pocket type? 
Probably a good idea to try & find one already retrofitted at sometime in their past. without mast mods, Don't most sails usually come in in the $3500 to 5K range. Of course that would be X2 on a Cat Ketch.
Daggerboard sounds iffy for blue water safety.

Tartan34C


> Make your own sails for the junk rig? If you can do that then you can make your own sails for a masthead-rigged sloop. Sail making is simple but tedious and anyone with reasonable skills can make sails that will work. Win in a race, maybe not, but almost certainly you can make sails that will work for cruising.
> 
> Pigslo does have a good point. I think all you can do at this point is ask a lot of questions and at best you will understand what you are getting into but you will still not "know" how it works until you sail the boat and see if the amount of room and the rig is suitable for you. You are the only one that can answer that question. Keep asking qustens and try to get a ride on as many different boats as you can to get some real world experience.
> All the best,
> Robert Gainer


It was my understanding that standard western sails were difficult to make due to their concave shape. Where you can make sails from flat fabric cuts on the junk. The full Battens adding support so that even in the case of a tear, you can patch them & not have them quikly re-tear due to all the unmidigated stresses spread thru a convential sail. Also , while it would add complexity. It intrigues me the idea of experimenting with adjustable camber. With that, The junk may even sail closer to the wind than a conventional rig. Especially given an apropriate coordinating hull. None of that would be practical in the short term, but it would be a fascinating horizon to cross down the road; when I had more understanding of boat design. Also, with reguard to clawing to windward, I wasn't negating the need, Just the difference of 7 degrees. Whatever the case, As I previously noted, It's very unlikely I could ever find a junk meeting my other requirements due to scarcity.

For everyone telling me of the wisdom in mooring myself to reality instead of fantasy. Your right, Your absolutely right, and don't hesitate to share such valuable info. 
I can't believe that it's not do-able somehow. There just has to be a way. In many ways I need to make a change. My current situation at work is not simply a drain. The ego based headgames I have to deal with are off the meters. I have a pretty easy going attitude when it come to swallowing pride in the face of a "Superior's" ego needs. I've had many jobs & I know there not all like this. I'm quikly reaching my limit. I don't know how long I can last. This puts me in a situation that if I lost my job, I wouldn't be able to meet my current debt load without working two lower paying jobs. I would then have even less or almost no time time or mental fortitude to self study for an escape. I was smart about my Mortgage, but costs are costs & to get in, It took what it took. I would be in pittiful shape if I ended up forclosed on. No boat or home. I'm kind of in a tight spot. Also, At 38, starting from scratch is a lot riskier, My boss knows it & that's a lot of his power. If I left it would hurt his business. Nontheless his resources are strong. He'd cut off his nose to spite his face rather than admit I was important enough to his operation to acquiesce. 
If the boat's paid for, All I'm really paying is room & board. Maintenance costs are my achilles heel. That's the make or break part of my escape. That's the part I need to figure out assuming My hull & rig needs.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

OE stands for Original Equipment...


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

Just saw a Freedom Yachts 28 Cat Ketch 1984. I wish I couldafford it. Mannn. YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

If I may stick my nose in here...


> This puts me in a situation that if I lost my job, I wouldn't be able to meet my current debt load without working two lower paying jobs.


 Until you deal with this, nothing is going to work out well, and you are not going to find the peace that it sounds like you're looking for. Regardless of which boat you buy you are going to end up spending thousands of dollars a year to keep it. Not upgrade it, repair it or refit it - just to keep it.

You need to slug it out for a couple of years until you are in a position to make the dream happen. You mentioned getting two lower-paying jobs - well, why not keep the current, higher-paying one and get out and get a second, lower paying one, get into a better financial situation and deal from a position of choice rather than one of desperation ?


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

ScrimpAndSail said:


> It was my understanding that standard western sails were difficult to make due to their concave shape. Where you can make sails from flat fabric cuts on the junk. ***snip***
> 
> Also, with reguard to clawing to windward, I wasn't negating the need, Just the difference of 7 degrees.


As far as sailmaking goes the shape in a jib headed mainsail comes from gradually changing the overlap of the seam between panels, a method called broadseaming, or cutting the luff and foot with a curve which when made straight by the mast and boom puts shape into the sail. It's no harder to do then cutting the taper or shape you find in a junk sail. The junk sail after all isn't a rectangle but is narrower at the top. The rules for either the broadseaming of cutting that shape are simple and well documented in books on sailmaking.

With reguard to sailing to windward, I have had situations where I wished for just a degree or two better while clawing offshore so that I could tack out of a narrow bay when caught by onshore winds. It might make a difference one day. The most common thing is to depend on your engine and when things get tough have the engine fail. It's common to have that happen because the sediment gets stirred up by the extreme movement of the boat and it clogs the filters.
All the best,
Robert Gainer


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

what are all the regular maintenance costs?
How often do sails really need to be replaced? especially on an unstayed mast?
How often is it nescisary to haulout if I'm spending most of my time in tropical waters?
If I need to repair blisters, after boring down the effected areas, How long is the MINIMUM time (winter/summer) to dry out before reaplying glass/resin?
Remember- I'd be living aboard. A lot of the costs I'd pay are the same ones (or comparable) to the bills I'm paying anyway. Asside from the occasional winch or woodwork, Painting (easy DIY) etc. what are all the regular maintenance costs?
Also, If I did make my own sails. What would likely be the materials cost, Time needed, & space required?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Bottom paint, metal polishing, rigging replacement, gelcoat polishing and waxing, cleaning, varnishing woodwork, are among the things that are included in routine boat maintenance... much you can do yourself... however, if you neglect it, it can get very expensive.

The replacement time on sails has a lot more to do with how the boat is used and where it is used than anything else. Sails on a boat that is sailed on nice days only, during the shorter summer season in northern Michigan or Maine, is going to have a much longer life than one that races or cruises full-time—since the stronger winds tend to put more wear on the sails; or one that is in the lower latitudes and stays in the water year round and sails year round—as UV does a fair amount of damage to the sails as well.

Haulouts, well, I'd plan on at least once a year as a prudent minimum. You need to check the zincs at least that often, if not more so. You also have to usually apply bottom paint, especially if you use an ablative, at least that often.

Blister repair—hmm...this really depends on what kind of blister it is... if it is an osmotic blister, that is filled with nasty acidic fluid...then the underlying laminate is probably fairly well saturated and it may take quite a while for the laminate to dry out enough to make a proper repair. If it is a bad gelcoat job type blister that is dry inside and just the result of shoddy layup..then it generally can just be repaired. 

Yes, many of the monthly bills, if you are living aboard are much the same or less than those for a house or an apartment—food, heat, water, electricity, telephone, gas, insurance, laundry costs, etc. There are probably some that are boat specific, like waterways use fees, mooring and dock fees, which you pay instead of rent or a mortgage. Maintenance costs really depend a lot on the boat, how big it is, how much woodwork you have aboard, what the hull is made of, etc... A steel hull doesn't have the possible blistering problems a fiberglass boat does, but corrosion is much more of an issue, etc..

Making your own sails is something you might want to reconsider. It takes a fairly large space to loft the sails, and a very heavy sewing machine. If you're really interested, go to Sailrite.com and check out their catalog.


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## toddrtownsend (Jun 13, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Keep us posted TRT...and how is the refitting of the new beastie going??


Everything is OK. The part of the plan that didn't work was finding work near the boat. I put my departure off by 9 months or a year. I'm driving a truck long haul. As a result, I'll be better equipped when I leave.

The major things left that I needed more cash for is plumbing and electrical system work; then replacing the cockpit floor. All else can be 'fill' work while I get those three done.

My debt is almost non existent, but I just didn't have the cash to stay by the boat and do it all at once without some work above flipping burgers. I actually did apply at Walmart before I decided to leave. 

I'll keep you all posted as I go. Major boat work will be on weekends, but mostly next spring/summer.

TrT


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> what are all the regular maintenance costs?


First - insurance is mandatory at pretty well every marina or club. Varies depending on your boat. Anywhere from $500 to $2,500... for a smaller boat. Then you need to pay for a slip or mooring. Again, this varies but I think an average cost for a 30 foot boat would be about $3,000.00 a year - depends on where you are. Then there are going to be things that break or wear out. Hard to say what this would cost you as it really depends on what boat you buy and what condition it is in. The thing with a boat though is that a lot of things cannot be put off until there is money for them - hoses, thru-hulls, pumps, heads, mooring lines, fenders, can sink your boat. You need to have easy access to at least $1,000.00 in case something happens. As well - polish, wax, varnish, paint, sandpaper, epoxy, etc, etc, can easily run you $500.00 over the course of a year. As a rule of thumb, I expect that any boat that I own is going to cost me a minimum of $5,000.00 a year to keep. For my current boat, in very good condition, I expect that I'll be spending 10K or so a year, (for the first 25 years that I own her...  ) 


> How often do sails really need to be replaced? especially on an unstayed mast?


Don't know about an unstayed mast, but new sails can last 20 years if they are used on weekends, probably 10 or less if you are cruising. I have heard that Nonsuch boats, which have unstayed masts have chafe issues that casue the sails to wear more quickly, but I don't know if this is the case with other unstayed rigs.


> How often is it nescisary to haulout if I'm spending most of my time in tropical waters?


At least once a year, but more likely 2 or 3 times a year unless you dive down and clean the bottom.


> If I need to repair blisters, after boring down the effected areas, How long is the MINIMUM time (winter/summer) to dry out before reaplying glass/resin?


Very hard to say. Me - I would wait a minimum of two warm months if the blisters were anything more than superficial gel coat "pox". I'd feel more comfortable with six months. For minor ones - well - I'd probably still wait at least a month because I'm a bit of a fanatic...  The boat needs to be covered so that no additional moisture can work its way in... 


> Remember- I'd be living aboard. A lot of the costs I'd pay are the same ones (or comparable) to the bills I'm paying anyway.


Well, if you are paying rent of $600 or more, then you are probably looking at spending the same amount of money to keep the boat floating. The issue with boats though, is that things wear out, and they're expensive to replace.



> Also, If I did make my own sails. What would likely be the materials cost, Time needed, & space required?


Realistically, the only way you are going to be able to do this is to buy a Sailrite kit and sewing machine. Making sails is an art - if it was within the grasp of the average boater, most of whom are pretty fanatic DIYers, then we'd all be doing it... Check out Sailrite's web page to get an idea...


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

I understand that the maintenance costs of a boat go up with size. That being said. I see a number of boats as large as 27 feet that are a small fraction of the cost (to purchase) of 30 foot boats in simular condition. That's a difference of 3 feet. 
Is this just a funtion of demand? 
Are there other reasons I'm not aware of?


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## MysticSkipper (Jul 16, 2007)

The purchase prices are related to condition, initial quality/price, desirability and internal volume. The length is just part of one factor.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Scrimp-

Boats do not change in size linearly, but volumetrically. Much of it is due to the difference in capabilities, volume, condition, quality and price, however the size makes a fairly significant difference.

A 30' boat is only 11% longer than a 27' boat, but it is almost 40% larger, in terms of volume, displacement, etc. It also weighs considerably more than a 27' boat. For instance, the Pearson Ariel, a 26' boat and the Alberg 30' are both designed by Carl Alberg. The Alberg 30 is 15% nominally... but is actually 30.25' vs. the 25.6' so is 18% longer LOA. However, the Alberg 30 weighs 9000 lbs. vs. the 5120 lbs. of the Ariel, a difference of almost 76% heavier. Sail area is 33% greater than the Ariel—410 sq. ft. vs 307 sq. ft. 

And so on...


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

chris_gee said:


> Count on a month to reach any Pacific Island and two months to get back to the US from any other group so you won't be doing much commuting, even if you had the money.
> Golden sands, palm trees and hula girls are a nice escapist fantasy from depression and a hated job. However with all due respect running away to sea is no answer. It sounds like you need a plan to make your life more satisfying. Maybe part-time study with the benefit of age, a new job and a little romance, plus some crewing for others might get you started on a new path.


RUNNING AWAY TO SEA!? Why I have been running away to sea all of my adult life. It has provide a good living, fed the family and kept a roof over their heads.
In archaic terms; I'm a Post Captain. A captain who is between vessels at this time. But am looking at what appears to be a nice vessel over by Houston Tx. 
Personally I prefer a Ketch, a Cutter or may even try a schooner. As long as it floats and has sails. Have sailed on square riggers and had fun. It is all in the prespective of your slant on life. Have been around the world and there are thousands of places I haven't been to yet. 
Single hand or short crewing means that you have people with that certain mind set that is special. When you go weeks and months at a time with only yourself and/or with just your spouse (and remain sane also). These are the explorers of yesteryears in today's modern times. These are the people that will do the deep space exploring when we have the technology to go beyond our solar system. 
Sometimes I think I was either born 400 years to late or 2000 years to early. (Sigh!)


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

> Single hand or short crewing means that you have people with that certain mind set that is special. When you go weeks and months at a time with only yourself and/or with just your spouse (and remain sane also). These are the explorers of yesteryears in today's modern times. These are the people that will do the deep space exploring when we have the technology to go beyond our solar system.
> Sometimes I think I was either born 400 years to late or 2000 years to early. (Sigh!)


That's it! Right there. In addition to my hated job etc. 
SailingDog always has the Firefly/Serenity quote which makes me smile. I've always liked scifi. I feel extemely jaded about our progress in space. We should already have a base on Mars. Period! No excuses!

About the size, That makes a lot of sence. When I was comparing length, I took for granted comparable condition/age related to Length/Size. I realized there would be a difference in volume. I just didn't realize the difference was so drastic.
I guess the keys are-

1. Sea-worthiness- Safe Bluewater & island hoping capable 
2. Geared to Singlehanded, Especially rigging
3. Initial Cost- Wallet only rated for given depth
4. Lowercost maintenece- see above
5. Large enough to live in decsent comfort. Large enough for femanin co-habitaition if fortunate enough
Size as small as possible helping the points 2,3, &4
Large enough for points 1 & 5


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Minimum would probably be an Alberg 30, Southern Cross 31, Cape Dory 30, or something there abouts. They're relatively affordable, and I know of two couples that were living aboard Alberg 30s with a single child each... One of their blogs is *here*.

Often, upgrading the amount of money spent just slightly will result in much lower maintenance costs initially.


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## Izz (Jun 22, 2007)

Hey ScrimpAndSail,
I'm a realtor, depending on where you live. This is not that best time to sell your house. Hold on for 3 to 5 years let the market come back. Sell your house. Then buy the boat of your dreams.
Izz


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## southerncross31 (Sep 16, 2006)

There are 2 SC31's for sale on yachtworld right now for 29k! Come on...you know you want one .


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

southerncross31 said:


> There are 2 SC31's for sale on yachtworld right now for 29k! Come on...you know you want one .


Don't listen to him...his opinion is obviously highly biased...  and he's obviously deranged...


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

That Flicka is still sittin' there in Wisconsin.


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## MysticSkipper (Jul 16, 2007)

sailaway21 said:


> That Flicka is still sittin' there in Wisconsin.


Flicka #1 (a piece of history) was, the last I heard, in VA for sale for only $7K in sailable condition (but needing work before taken on a serious cruise).


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

Sailingdog
If he wasn't deranged he wouldn't be worth listening to.

Southerncross31
I'd love to but it'd take a while to sell my house.

Izz
You're right. The market is terrible. That's why I originally said "Sell my house at a pittance". My original plan when I bought my house was to get in while I could. Before I got priced out. Then hold it for 5-7 years. Then buy some dirt in North Carolina (or another relatively inexpensive area) and drop off the map as much as possible. Since then my job is seriously taking a larger toll than expected. Asside from that I've re-aquired the sailing bug from my youth- and with a vengence. I've aways known that posessions are of little real value. But in my age, With no family, Posessions are of no real value at all besides the entertainment value they hold while in use. The only real posessions I will miss are my fish tanks and berry bushes. The house or if I traded up to land, Does provide security. The scary thing to me is that all you can hope for out of a boat is depreciation. With no family, and to a fair degree with one, At the end of our lives, the only thing of real value is what we have seen or accomplished. I can't say I haven't made accomplishments I can be proud of. I would like to see the world and enjoy some peace along the way.


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

Boasun your going to sea presumably mainly did not involve your buying the boat nor going without an income.
This guy has $20,000, which may prove optimistic as it is his real estate equity and in a downturn sellers get squeezed. Assuming he keeps his present job, which he hates but pays more, he can put say at a guess $5000 max pa into upgrades and repairs, after living expenses. Even do it yourself if he has the skills that is probably four years assuming the motor on a 20k boat is ok. 
He seemingly doesn't have the skills to generate an income while cruising so as it stands it would take another two years to generate the minimum savings to live on for a year. with no allowance for maintenance etc.
He also seems to have the idea that the Pacific is full of islands so he can island hop. While that may be true that there are many, the groups are generally 700 - 3000 miles apart and most islands don't have water diesel or supplies, so one has to focus on the major centres at least as bases. 
Such passages can be rough and coral reefs make navigation skills a bit more of a challenge even allowing for gps. Apart from the additional safety equipment he is unlikely to acquire with a small old boat, he as a singlehander would need things like windvane selfsteering.
Sure some have done such things in small boats, but this guy at the moment is just learning to sail.
There may be some inaccuracies in this summation but I don't see a realistic plan capable of being done in the near future. So encouraging him in it at least in its present form may just help avoid his dealing with the problems he faces.


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## SDW (May 16, 2007)

This boat.........that boat........this rig........that rig.........So-and-so drew this well but the other guy drew this.......OMG....there's just too many boats out there to get too anal relative on THIS boat is the best, or even THESE TWO OR THREE !! Especially on a posted forum. Books are written about all of these sub-sections that you want to know about, but it comes down usually to what boat is available to you nearby, and can you fall in love with her. All the other stuff is like how hot do you want your spicy chinese food? Variables within variables, and everyone has their preference.


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## MysticSkipper (Jul 16, 2007)

SDW said:


> [...], but it comes down usually to what boat is available to you nearby, and can you fall in love with her. [...]


So true. So often you find the "perfect boat" in a book, post or article and then come up dry searching locally or you only find ones trashed or overpriced. If you are on a shoe string, the early research (IMO) is largely to get familiar with boats and features so you will know which ones to not even bother looking at. You must be careful not to talk yourself into the wrong boat, of course, but you also need to be careful about not becoming convinced you have to have a certain boat when it is hard to find or really doesn't fit your budget.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

This boat buying thing is a process to be enjoyed in it's own right. It is analagous to raising a child where the gathering of the info is like the pregnancy.
pigslo


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

I don't need to hit the south pacific right away. The carridean would be my first haunt. I do realize the distances in the south pacific. Before I'd head to the pacific I'd want to be confident in my nav skills. While the distances in the caribean are more forgiving, I'd still want to know where I'm going.
The housing market is bad. No doubt about it. A couple comparable houses are for sale down the street. They're asking 155k. I was thinking of putting it on the market for the same & then going down to about 140k. I've got 107k in. Plus there is some cosmetic work I still need to get done. Even If I did put it on the market, I'd want to get that done first. I don't want to sell at this time but it is what i've been considering. 
That's 33k optimistically less 5k for dept & BS. Ok, so 25k.
And there it is.

About skills, I don't want to come off as ignorant. 
I don't have a degree. That is an obstacle. I've just been stuck unable to find a course of study that I found at least tolerable, And still able to pay the bills. In retrospect, Many employers will accept a degree for it's own sake. This isn't going to pay as highly as a degree tailored to the job. I would; However, have been in a better position than I am now. At my current age, If I were to get a degree. It would need to be job specific. 
Right now I'm Self Studying XHTML. It's not going as fast as I'd like, But I can't say that it's particularly difficult. Of couse I'm just starting. I'd also need to learn the MySQL database, & maybe Apache Server. That's a couple of years of study plus I'll need to improve math. I know I'll need to for the database. I may not need the Apache server as if I'm at sea, I would certainly having any sites in my ownership hosted. If I was successful in this goal. 
As far as business I would be limited to merchandise that can be dropshipped & information commerce. I would also need to invest in a seagoing uplink. They seem to be very expensive.


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

> This boat.........that boat........this rig........that rig.........So-and-so drew this well but the other guy drew this.......OMG....there's just too many boats out there to get too anal relative on THIS boat is the best, or even THESE TWO OR THREE !! Especially on a posted forum. Books are written about all of these sub-sections that you want to know about, but it comes down usually to what boat is available to you nearby, and can you fall in love with her. All the other stuff is like how hot do you want your spicy chinese food? Variables within variables, and everyone has their preference.


SDW
I'm most interested in boats that aren't excluded from the list of possibilities. Keeping in mind the requirements set forth.
The cat ketch seems like a kind rig toward the single hander.


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## MysticSkipper (Jul 16, 2007)

ScrimpAndSail said:


> I don't need to hit the south pacific right away. The Caribbean would be my first haunt. I do realize the distances in the south pacific. Before I'd head to the pacific I'd want to be confident in my nav skills. While the distances in the Caribbean are more forgiving, I'd still want to know where I'm going.


Be careful about assuming that a shorter strip of blue water is safer. Get trained and experienced before you get out there and then cross with others if you can. I haven't done it yet; I hope I will. I probably could, but want to feel better about it before I do. I may fly down and do some boating school first. Search for USCG certification courses and you will find a reasonably priced one in PR (well, sort of; with airfare and hotel, you will probably use up a couple of grand, but it will probably be well worth it).


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

Why learn navs in Puerto Rico? Is the training somehow better or more in depth than a stateside school?


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## MysticSkipper (Jul 16, 2007)

ScrimpAndSail said:


> Why learn navs in Puerto Rico? Is the training somehow better or more in depth than a stateside school?


Because it will give me a tropical boating vacation to help keep me patient about getting there under my own sail. Thre are blue water courses 3 hours' drive from me, but that is still far enough that I would have to pay lodging at the coast, so the airfare (I am on the East coast, so round trip to SJU is about $250) versus gas is about the only difference. Plus the nearby ones I have sound are for ASA rather than USCG. If you are getting your own boat and might do some charters (an option I am mulling over), you need USCG. The one I am looking at is actually taught by a stateside school that would be a very full day's drive to attend.


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

Good answer. If I were in the position to cruise, My choice would probably to cruise the coast to the vacinity of a USCG cert school. That just makes it part of the life. 
This brings in a new issue, At least for me. Getting around on shore. Folding bicycles, I actually had one when I was a kid. I googled and found that there are some decent ones out there. They would be probably fit in a dinghy well, And folded, be very easy to securely lock. Of course, for any descent travel you'ld probably want to rent a moped. 
What's the smallest cruiser that is likely able to support a Dinghy?


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## MysticSkipper (Jul 16, 2007)

Your dinghy could be inflatable, nested or folding. If not, it is going to depend on the specific layout of the boat in question.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

A story: Last summer I was out off Alpena MI with some locals. On the _very first island_ was the wreck of a sailboat, a sad sight. Several years ago the couple that bought that sailboat had left for their voyage around the world. That's as far as they got.

IMO, if you or anyone else has to ask what kind of boat they need, you're not ready for it yet, unless maybe it's a dinghy. Right now, it's more than lack of a boat that's keeping you from sailing to the Caribbean. You don't even know what you don't know yet. Go to a local yacht club or marina, take some lessons and crew on some boats. Get to know something about sailing and about boats. In about 2 years you might start to get to know what you don't know. Make a list of that and work on it. _Then _might be the right time to start thinking about what kind of boat you need.

In the meantime, the lessons and daysailing will hopefully make your work a little more bearable. If you can't take the time you need to do that, you shouldn't be planning your escape by sea. Stick to the roads if you need to get away.


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## ReverendMike (Aug 1, 2006)

CapnHand said:


> IMO, *if you or anyone else has to ask what kind of boat they need, you're not ready for it yet*, unless maybe it's a dinghy. Right now, it's more than lack of a boat that's keeping you from sailing to the Caribbean. You don't even know what you don't know yet. Go to a local yacht club or marina, take some lessons and crew on some boats. Get to know something about sailing and about boats. In about 2 years you might start to get to know what you don't know. Make a list of that and work on it. _Then _might be the right time to start thinking about what kind of boat you need.
> 
> *In the meantime, the lessons and daysailing will hopefully make your work a little more bearable*. If you can't take the time you need to do that, you shouldn't be planning your escape by sea. Stick to the roads if you need to get away.


SandS-

Not to squash your dreams, but IMO you need to read that post from CapnHand a few dozen times. I was once where you are and i kid you not, he's right. Making a bad financial decision (buying a boat) based on emotional reasons will NOT make you any happier. As others have said, go crew, get into the OPYC (Other Peoples Yacht Club). Keep dreaming, but let those dreams evolve as you learn more. For me, learning to sail and learning about boats WAS the escape and the idea of sailing to Tahiti became an unnecessary (and expensive) point that didn't actually prove anything. I still dream of long voyages, but i took a detour to the midwest for family reasons. The journey has already started; this is the adventure; we can't go looking for happiness, it's not external.

The sunset from my back step IS just as gorgeous as the sunset I saw while on a charter in the BVI, I just had to look at it.

(I apologize if this is too sappy or too much of a lecture, but i really do remember feeling the way you described about work and couldn't not-respond)

Be good
Mike


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

ScrimpAndSail said:


> Right now I'm Self Studying XHTML. It's not going as fast as I'd like, But I can't say that it's particularly difficult. Of couse I'm just starting. I'd also need to learn the MySQL database, & maybe Apache Server. That's a couple of years of study plus I'll need to improve math. I know I'll need to for the database. I may not need the Apache server as if I'm at sea, I would certainly having any sites in my ownership hosted. If I was successful in this goal.


You would probably also want to study some design courses, since just XHTML skills tend to lead to a very ugly website. You'd also better learn CSS, since CSS is really the best way to structure and define the layout and look of XHTML-based websites.



> As far as business I would be limited to merchandise that can be dropshipped & information commerce. I would also need to invest in a seagoing uplink. They seem to be very expensive.


Trying to run a business without solid communications abilities, like near-immediate receipt of e-mail and phone calls, is probably going to make it very unlikely for the business to succeed. Unless you have some partner back stateside, getting companies to drop-ship merchandise on your behalf is going to be difficult if your only address is a sailboat, the specific location of which is not always known.

Finally, the only real way to get decent and reliable mid-ocean internet access would be to use a satellite phone. SSB/Ham radio can be used for e-mail, but only in a fairly limited way, and radio wave propagation problems can really interfere with them. Satellite phone providers do offer various data plans, but AFAIK, all of them charge by the amount of data communicated, and then by airtime for voice calls. This can get very expensive if you are trying to run a business, especially one that has any serious data requirements.


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

Frankly, I don't see how I could be truly well versed in all the details that go into boats and seamanship without 30 years astern. I grew up travelling on the roads. I would like to see the sealanes. I have no family to draw me anywhere. 
I don't pretend that I'll be navigating the south pacific in a fortnight. 
I'm trying to gain an idea of the most important attributes to look for in a boat that will meet the needs of my ultimate goals. I want to avoid the boats and rigs that are not going to work for my purpose. I'm about to start classes on a begining level. Without direction on the above, I could easilly spend years on learning on boats that are a complete waste of effort. 
I understand that there is value in getting a feel of want I definately don't like or boats that are completely unsuitable through personal experience. As I learn, Even with all the direction I ask for, Gainning an apreciation of my likes & dislikes will be inevitable. I would rather take advantage of the thousands of years of experience that the people in this community have than every boat out there through personal experience. 
Beyond all of the above, There are a million things that I don't know and this is a part of the way I learn. 
I don't mind criticism, But I would like to spend more time on the particulars of the boats, Rigs, & equipment.


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

Sailingdog

Ignore my previous post.
The satellite conection is precisely the overprice internet connection I was speaking. And it is expensive. I currently work with two companies that dropship though not my own. Once free I can buy in. If I'm careful I may even be able to get an internet noncompete with the company I work for. We don't currently offer those two companies online. The funny thing is They were about to get rid of the manufactures in question until I made them pay off. They had a $10,000 inventory going nowere till they let meturn it around. Mostly as an indulgence to me. I now sell 20K a year on the floor. While these 2 companies wouldn't meet all my economic needs, There not producing anywhere near what they could. They just can't see the value in smalls in a high turnover. They would be a good start.
I have a fare artistic aptitude. Art was always important in my upbringing, I even went to a magnet arts shcool. I sure I will end up taking some graphic design. 
While I am just starting, I did take CSS for granted. That's what I'm taking time away from now.
Stateside freinds are up in the air. My freinds just don't seem to do the things I want when & where I want them to. I just can't figure it out. At least they put up with me. Of my two best freinds, One does a lot of small business management & the other one sleeps through most of his life. He works for another company that does a lot of online business. He does a good job. He would require motivation. 
THinking about it myself I really can't see getting what I want to done without a 5 year plan min. Living in a relatively local slip would be possible a few years out.
I also have an idea for a new variant on the information commerce idea. It's not that grandious but it will take longer. Loose lips sink ships.


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

while I'm on a topic that's off topic, Right now I use Ubuntu. I know enough linux to get by, But I may take a Unix class just to make it a more comfortable foundation for self-study. Right now the xhtml promises a quiker return.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Find th people first, the boat later...*

I have been reading this thread with interest. I also want to learn the ropes better (I can sail, but not ready for the briny blue just yet) and head out someday. I am fortunate enough to already be in NC, with fairly easy access to the coast and some decent sized lakes nearby. But the biggest thing I have done is get connected with other boaters. There are clubs and local discussion groups that hooked me up with local sailors who are happy to lend a helping hand. I imagine you can find this kind of support most places where there are enough people if you look hard, but definitely along the coasts. I have been loaned boats, instructed, invited to regattas and socials and have people showing me their boats and beating the bushes to find great deals on ones like it. Yeah, they want me to race in their class or cruise in their fleet, but that's no evil ulterior motive by any stretch. My point is that getting more involved in sailing is already making life better even though I am still working full time at a job that has become something of grind and the "ultimate cruise" is still years off. Sailing is a good cure, but total immersion isn't the only effective dosage. In fact, going to that extreme too quickly has its dangers.


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## fdibbl (Jul 22, 2005)

Scrimp & Sail;

You've already said the best thing, education. Good. Go get your higher ASA's 103-108, you'll be exposed to open H20, (you may dislike it) &/or get/crew on OPB's (other people's boats). Learn off of other cruisers and see what works for them, their equipment, their boats.
You can go to Fl., CA., ME., Oh yeah don't forget to add TX. -(our real estate is average, people are nice, look into Houston, yur 30" from Kemah, TX.)- and be a coastal cruiser with a job in the Marine biz doing computer work. 
Or you may hop on your Valiant 40 (my pick) and sail the world, with Kemah, TX as your home port. I think if yu (we) pick a well founded, well maintained, popular cruiser, the boat will retain most of it's value if yu sell her 5-10 yrs later. 
I'"ve also been researching sailopo.com for crew possibilties. Anyone belong or have used sailopo.com ??? Good Luck.

Fair winds and strait bearings.
Francis in Dallas


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

> Oh yeah don't forget to add TX. -(our real estate is average, people are nice, look into Houston, yur 30" from Kemah, TX.)- and be a coastal cruiser with a job in the Marine biz doing computer work.


fdibbl

I've heard that they have good slip rates in TX. You had mentioned computer work in the marine industry. What did you have in mind?


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Scrimp&Sail,

Some people are ok with few comforts, and some aren't.

To me living on very little money is about making very personal changes in lifestyle. Some people can't live without a wind generator, huge battery bank, panels, refrigerator, and on and on, they just wouldn't enjoy themselves unless they had a boat that was filled with all that stuff. But it's not wind generators they are really interested in - instead it is about very personal things. Some people just need to have a cold soda pop or beer. It's not up for debate, they just won't live without it. And that one little decision changes the entire boat. Someone else might decide they just can't sleep in the cold with blankets, they have to have it 70 degrees when it's cold outside. Again, that one decision changes the boat. Some people can't sleep if it's too hot, or they can't sleep if their berth isn't just right. Some have to have fresh meat to eat every day, some have to have frozen foods to choose from, and all those simple things create big changes in the boat. Some people have to have plenty of room to move around, some can live with less. Some need a pile of electronics, some don't. Some need unlimited supplies of water for showers and the like, some don't mind transporting water by hand. All those things impact the boat, and in every case more comfort means more complicated systems, more expense, etc. All those changes add up to money, both upfront costs and recurring. Everything about a boat is about comfort, even if it's just the comfort of knowing you are safe, or the comfort of being able to have a more flexible schedule, or freedom, or the comfort of not having to do as much maintenance or work.

So I think the big question is ... how much comfort do you need ?

Most of the people in this world live on next to nothing. They eat rice and beans and other simple foods, drink water, do things themselves, and do without many real luxuries. We in the richer countries sometimes say that we have it too easy, that we should do with less, etc. But comfort isn't entirely about luxury, there is a reason that human beings enjoy things like being warm, not being too hot, having cold things to drink, warm food to eat, variety in their diet, etc. At some point cutting comfort out of your life can cut through the fat and into the muscle, even into the bone. At some level you can cut back so much that I think it can really affect your spirit and your enjoyment of what you are doing, and even start to affect your mood, how well you are sleeping, etc, causing you to be exhausted a lot, down, moody, and generally affect your performance. At the extreme you can get hypothermia, become ill, lose a lot of weight, and all kinds of bad things if you go too far with it.

But I think that's the kind of thing you'd want to ask yourself if you are considering going out on the ocean for an extended cruise without any money. It's easy to think you can eat rice every day, but can you ? Have you ever actually tried it ? Or do you think, oh, I'll cook tomorrow, today was a hard day and I deserve to order out. Can you sew that ripped sail or will you think, well, I don't know much about it and I really need it because I'm in a hurry, just this once I'll take it to a loft and let them sew it. Can you go to the extra effort to make something yourself or to get a better deal, or will you think, ah, this gadget is important, I really should get the very best. Can you get a book and teach yourself to do things, or when it really comes time will you be too busy and just say, well, I will let someone else do it that already knows how.

The good news is that if you really can give up some creature comfort you can probably do whatever you want, because what's to stop you ?

It's not about how much someone else needs. It's about what you need.

That's all just my own personal opinion of course, and what do I know. I don't have all that much experience either and I have been asking myself a lot of these questions to. I think everyone asks themselves these kind of things because very few of us have unlimited resources to do whatever we want without limits. I think it's a trade-off for everyone.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Wow! Outstanding, Magic! I think that post should be an article in Cruising.


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

> Some people are ok with few comforts, and some aren't.


Wind_Magic

I really needed to quote your whole post. That is exactly the issue.
I will say that there are a number of things that are non-negotiable. The hull. Even with do it yourself maintenace. I'll still need haul-out. I almost certainly notwant to do all the cleaning by diving. Also, If I needed to do blister repair my self. Something I don't see as beyond my capabilities. I would not only need haul-out, but it would require long periods out of water to complete the repairs.

This brings up a few questions I don't have info on.
How common are blisters & over what time frames do they occur? If you have an older boat, Is there a way to avoid a boat likely to have blister problems sooner than later? Are there methods to prevent blistering that are actually effective?

Sails. As posted earlier. Their not something I'm going to make myself. Being able to repair them myself is absolutely necessary.

I would want an older deisel motor that I can learn to do many repairs on. Not a newer one heavily dependant on speciallized electronics. Of coure this is common in newer Gasloline engines. I don't know if deisel has followed suit. Deisel parts get spendy judging from the auto market.

I can use blankets in the cold without a problem. Sleeping in hot weather & having cold beverages I will need to deal with in the tropics. If I don't learn to adapt. That will be very expensive in power generation. I may be able to get the cost down on the AC & refrigoration equipment, but they use a lot of power. There is just no way around it. If I were somehow able to do the AC. It'd probably need to be localized to the master berth & only used at anchor. Cold bevs I would need.
In a perfect world I would have a wind generator & a healthy solar array. It's not a perfect world.

Personally I will need some electronics. Especially if I'm doing computer work, The rest are questions of priorities. Some creature comforts I will feel I need, Some I will not. I will have some decisions to make.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

ScrimpAndSail,

I know _exactly_ how you feel. Difference for me is that I'm married and have a 401k that's in pretty decent shape (providing the stock market doesn't tank, of course). Got a home with, realistically, about $30k of equity (in the current housing market). Got a job that has become as dry as toast--and that's on a _good_ day. Would like to head for Katmandu.

But...

I know what I think I'd like to do is unrealistic. Oh, sure, _if_ I had been sailing for 30 years, then maybe it'd be possible. At least then I'd have some idea of what the hell I'd be getting myself into. But I haven't and I don't. What I have is two seasons of crewing, 25 years ago, and a weekend of ASA classes. So, even if my wife were to go along with the idea, even if we were to cash out the house and get that $30k or so of equity out, and even if we had another $30k or so in addition to that, I realize that, as nice as such a fantasy is, a fantasy is exactly what it is.

So what I'm doing instead is buying a boat, putting it in a slip on the Great Lakes, and I'll have micro-versions of my fantasy on weekends and mini-versions of it on vacation. Maybe, after a few seasons of sailing the Great Lakes, and some more studying, and, hopefully, continued improvement in my cash position, I'll actually be in a position to give my fantasy a go.

Here's another thing: The field you're talking about getting into is the field I've been working in for some 20 years. Make no mistake: It's like every other field in this one respect: To get work there has to be work to be had. For what you're talking about doing, I wouldn't be learning just web server stuff (btw: There's about a billion mediocre web designers out there), but also Windows and Linux configuration, installation, maintenence, troubleshooting, repair, networking, etc. These days those skills are kinda like those of plumbers, electricians, automobile mechanics, etc.: There are people and business' all over the planet that have these systems installed, they depend upon them utterly, and they have no idea how they work. When something breaks: They're screwed. If I were going to "hit the road," or the sea, I think those are the skills that would most likely put bread on my table. (Consider: A truly screwed 'doze box can take hours and hours to rescue. [Ask me how I know.] And with all the virus', worms, trojans and other exploits out there, plus all the unknowing users using them--on unprotected networks... Bonanza!)

Good luck!

Jim


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

SandS, I think I understand what you are saying. I think you should try to really live on the bare minimum right now, I mean cut out ALL the fat in your life. Turn down your heat in winter to no more than 60, the A/C up to at least 85 in the summer, get rid of the TV, certainly no cable!! no A/C in your car except _on your way to_ work (don't wan't to smell bad there). Spend no more than $15 per week on food (it can easily be done). Live like this for 1 year. It will save you a TON of money to help you for cruising, and it will let you see if you are the kind of person who can really make it on bare minimum. It will let you decide if that is the kind of life you want to lead. Cause once you are in by buying a boat, then you better be pretty committed.

To tell you my situation. I grew up in a fairly affluent family. Always wore the latest fads, had horses, I got a brand new car when I was 16, etc etc Well I got some money from a trust when I turned 18 and decided to spend some time in Europe. I met some Aussies who were heading off to a third world country for a 3 month volunteer mission. I decided what the heck, I was gonna go along. I had NO IDEA what I was in for. It changed me in so many ways. I lived in basically a shack and we had no A/C  and it was HOT, and I mean HOT!!! 100+ and high humidity. I almost quit after the first week. But the embarrassment of quiting kept me going. We ate bread, rice/beans and green peppers and onions almost every day. The bathroom was a squat toilet. toilet paper? what is that??!! Water had to be conserved. For us girls that was really tough, we thought that twice daily showers were required.... hmmm, we learned differently quick. In a few weeks I actually started enjoying myself. I got somewhat got used to the heat and when it would rain we were all so happy that we might stand outside dancing around in it  The people we met and were helping were for the most part really happy people. They didn't know anything else. I think it is much more difficult for those of us who grew up with luxuries to give them up than for them to arrange their lives around not having them if they didn't even know they existed.. Electricity, Telephones, A/C or Fridges, yes, in some parts of the world these things are luxuries, not necessities that every person HAS to have to survive, LOL.

Now, 20 years have past and I live a much simpler existence _than had I never taken that trip._ I could afford a bigger fancier house like my sister has but I choose to live in a 700sf *old* farm house that was inherited. It is easier to keep clean and keeps the clutter to a minimum. I am stingy now so I keep the A/C on 80 and the heat on 65 in the winter. I think if all goes as planned down the road I will move onto a boat and be able to do without all the "necessities" that many folks tend to think they need. Now I am not judging, if they don't want to do without the comforts of home and _can afford to do so_ then that is fine for them. For me, I would rather go in the next 5 years than spend another 15 working to be able to really be sure that I can afford all those what are to me "extras".

It really is an individual thing. Only YOU can decide how much stuff you want or need or are willing to do without. I do strongly suggest that you learn to live RIGHT NOW with the mentality of bare necessities to see if that is a lifestyle that suites you and second to help you get there quicker. Better to find out now that that is not the life you want than after you have bought a boat. Good Luck whatever you decide.


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

> I wouldn't be learning just web server stuff (btw: There's about a billion mediocre web designers out there), but also Windows and Linux configuration, installation, maintenence, troubleshooting, repair, networking, etc. These days those skills are kinda like those of plumbers, electricians, automobile mechanics, etc.: There are people and business' all over the planet that have these systems installed, they depend upon them utterly, and they have no idea how they work. When something breaks: They're screwed. If I were going to "hit the road," or the sea, I think those are the skills that would most likely put bread on my table. (Consider: A truly screwed 'doze box can take hours and hours to rescue. [Ask me how I know.] And with all the virus', worms, trojans and other exploits out there, plus all the unknowing users using them--on unprotected networks... Bonanza!)


SEMIjim

Excellent info. More, More, More. As an industry professional. Do you think I'm on the right path in starting with the Web server stuff. I do enjoy the small bit of learning I'm doing now. Also, Enjoyment is important to me.
In order of personal productivity, In the IT world, What would you say would you say I should study first thru last?


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Well, SAS, this isn't really the proper venue for extended discussions on things IT. (Maybe in the off-topic sub-forum.) Given the way my career has non-progressed the last few years, I don't know as I'd be the one to ask, anyway . (Besides which I really dislike talking shop on my days off. I don't much like my job, my field, or computers, in general, any more.)

Like I said, regarding the web stuff: Mediocre web "designers" are a dime a dozen. If you learn the various technologies used, and learn them well, really know what you're about and can do the whole thing from soup to nuts, that field has the advantage that all the work can be done via telecommuting. It has the disadvantage that all the work can be done by telecommuting. IOW: There's no geographical limitation to the employee/contractor source pool.

Client, server, LAN, WAN, WLAN, etc. work, OTOH, almost inevitably requires _some_ degree of on-site presence--even if that presence is so-called "smart hands." I currently manage three facilities, all client, server, LAN, WAN, WLAN, Internet connectivity, phones, incl. PBX and keyswitch, all related contracts and vendor relationships. Two of the three sites are geographically separated from mine. I can do 85% of my job from home, if they'd let me. But the other 15% requires a physical presence.

As for whether you're taking the correct track: Only you can know that. If web design is what blows your skirts up, then web design is what you should do. Just beware: Unlike what certain radio adverts will tell you, it may or may not lead you to a place where the streets are paved with gold .

The one thing you will have to be prepared for is, much like sailing a blue water course (I knew I could get this back on-topic if I rambled long enough ): You must be prepared for changes in the weather. IT is a constantly shifting seascape.

Jim


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I have over 25 years experience in software development. When it comes time to go crusing, I want to just walk away from it. If you really want to work in the field remotely with a late start, there are two jobs that come to mind - phone support and development of macros and/or reports. 

Phone support would probably be the easiest to land, but that's because people get burned out and quit. You need to learn to use whatever product you support pretty well, but an equally important skill is searching for stuff. Nearly all major products have knowledgebases and the answers to problems are usually in there, but it can take a few tries to find them. So you paraphrase the problem about 5 differrnt ways and look at the search results until you find the right one. Every now and then it isn't there and you bumpt the problem up to the next level. A couple of times a day you will get a screamer who has already lost his data, doesn't really care what the solution is and just ones someoen to abuse because he is pissed. That's one reason the turnover is so high. It is very easy for them to track your work because they transfer the calls to you and get customer feedback as to whether or not problems got solved and you were courteous, so a lot of companies are allowing the people to be anywhere as long as they have a good quality phone connection and access to the knowledgebase (which generally can be downloaded).

Development of macros and reports is one I have considered just because I have the right skill set (I am actually overqualified, but I still enjoy some macro work). You learn VBA and some SQL (if you hate Microsoft, you might learn some other tools, but there is way more work for Microsoft Office) and make XL spreadsheets, Access databases and reports for SQL databases to let people look at data in ways whatever their main application doesn't do but for whatever reason they need to do. I know that is really vague, but if you make the right contacts, there is a ton of work like that out there and they often don't care about hiring someone full time in house to do it. A lot of developers try to get long term remote work and that is hard because any long term work implies that you are critical path and they don't like critical path developers to be out sailing most of the time and just dabbling at work. But if they need some specialized spreadsheet that would make things easier for them, they really don't care quite so much. There is one potential issue here though; you have to have the knack for it. Some people find it really difficult and other people just blow through it.

Just my $.02.


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## wrevans (Dec 25, 2003)

This thread seems to have wondered a bit but I wanted to return to the original post on boat and rigging choices. My advice would be to really closely reread and reread Jeff_H comments. And then if still want to learn more about the qualities of sail boats search all of his other posts and sit down on a Sunday afternoon and go to school. Everyone on this board has their preferences and biases Jeff included. But what I have found from reading his posts is that for the most part I think he is right. Often he has added a few warts to my favorite type of boat. So be it. I may choose not to completely follow his advice but after sailing the boat I choose (Bluenose Sloop) I have become a believer in his advice. His advice stems from years of hands on experience. In any other venue we would pay a dear price for his advice.

His recommendation about fractional rigs is about the best I could pass along. My boat does have a fractional rig and I sail it without an engine. Every time I return to my mooring I get to short tack into a narrow channel about 4 to 5 boat lengths wide. My non-overlapping jib is a savior for these short tacks. I don't know how I would short tack single handed with a large masthead overlapping genoa.

Also, find Jeff's words about speed. Time and time again people say they aren't worried about speed. Where I sail a 3 knot current is not uncommon so to make headway to windward I have to sail about 45 degrees to windward and make around 4 1/2 knots just to fight the current. Many of the well regarded cruising boats would struggle at this in light to moderate wind.

But best of in your search and do read Jeff_H.

Cheers, Bill



ScrimpAndSail said:


> Hi Every one
> I guess I need to start with my situation, needs, & wants.
> I'm new to sailing. It's been an interest on and off since I was in my teens. I'm now in full-on midlife crisis. Work is a horrible travisty of all that's holy on a daily basis. I can't emphasize this enough. I don't want to reach the end of my life in a house full of junk & no life experience. I never went to college. (At least for a full degree or even close to it, Just what interested me. I could never discover a course of study I could stomach that would be worth while economically.) None the less my job has decent pay for someone without a college background. My soul is left dying.
> Bad Timing- I know, But I'm almost ready to sell my house for less than I could If I just could wait a few years. This will only allow for a very well priced older boat. Maybe 20,000 or so.
> ...


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

Arbarnhart & SEMIjim
You could only be as specific as you were with such a vague question. Both of your answers were helpful. Thank You.

JustMeUC
I grew up American poor. In many diffenet American subcultures. Instead of making me everyman, it's helped me in becoming a misenthrope. I don't really fit in with any group, But I sure can sell. Many would say I've done well to get to the place I am today.
I've lived without ac, But not month after month in bad climes. 
I can eat out of the garbage, But I'm well adjusted to a better lifestyle. I can go back on many things but many of them will be a struggle. Most of all, Temperture will be the most difficult. I'll have to find my comfort zone.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I hear ya, I am forty now and don't know if I could do the 100+ with no A/C like I did at 20. I suppose if I HAD to I could... LOL but that is probably the one thing that I would have the hardest time with. Luckily when the time comes for me to sail off I will not be in the situation where I am having to watch every last penny so I may not be willing to give up on that one thing. Then again, I am cheap/stingy enough that if it really does cost too much I very well may TRY to give it up with the option of getting it later.

I understand the dream you have and just want to say that you really need to see if you can make it work financially before committing too much time and planning into it. The worst thing I can imagine happening is for you to buy a boat, put all your money into it and love the life but not be able to afford to do it. Hope that makes sense.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

arbarnhart, Thank you!   



JustMeUC said:


> SandS, I think I understand what you are saying. I think you should try to really live on the bare minimum right now, I mean cut out ALL the fat in your life. Turn down your heat in winter to no more than 60, the A/C up to at least 85 in the summer, get rid of the TV, certainly no cable!! no A/C in your car except _on your way to_ work (don't wan't to smell bad there). Spend no more than $15 per week on food (it can easily be done). Live like this for 1 year. It will save you a TON of money to help you for cruising, and it will let you see if you are the kind of person who can really make it on bare minimum. It will let you decide if that is the kind of life you want to lead. Cause once you are in by buying a boat, then you better be pretty committed.


Nice post JustMeUC, we are on the same page I think.

Anybody can live like they are on a sailboat, just pick up your telephone, call the gas company, the electric company, the cable company, and anyone who performs service for you such as fixing your car and just tell them you aren't interested anymore, that you do not wish to continue service. It's okay to keep your bank account, but it is NOT okay to use your automobile to go there, you have to ride a bicycle. In fact you get to ride a bicycle to the grocery store, gasoline station, pharmacy, and anywhere else you wish to go. It's okay to drive your car to work, you need to make money for the trip, but that is all you get to use it for. You can't get mail at your house anymore, you have to get it sent general delivery to the post office then ride your bicycle over to the post office to pick up your mail and anything you order. It's ok to keep your computers up and running along with anything else, but you have to have a solar panel or wind generator installed and you have to charge up a small battery bank to power whatever it is you want to power. And you can use the Internet so long as you can find a wi-fi signal nearby to connect to, otherwise you are going to have to hang a wire antenna in a nearby tree and use an HF radio to get your email, no web surfing on that connection! You can keep a telephone, but you can't use it to make calls, send faxes, or for dial-up, unless it is for business, again, you need to be making money to go on your trip. Refrigeration is okay so long as you can figure out a way to have it after the power company comes and turns off the electricity at your house. And it's okay to have heat, but you are probably only going to be able to heat one room in your house, and that should be with a diesel heater. Your diesel heater will need fuel, of course, so it's probably time to get some fuel containers and get a map to find the shortest way to walk to the gasoline station. Might be time to take up hitch hiking! And of course you aren't going to get picked up as a hitch hiker looking like a tramp, so you will want to do laundry. That's easy enough to do, cruisers have all kinds of tricks for it, putting laundry in a bucket and using a plunger to wash it being a popular one. That means you are going to need plenty of water so it's time to get those water containers out and start walking to a nearby stream or business to fill them up. If you don't like carrying that wash water you can always bag your clothing up and take it to the laundromat. And you'll need to eat, so you'll need to get yourself some kind of a camp stove or propane stove to do that, probably time for a pressure cooker too to make boiling that stream water go a little faster. And those propane containers ? You guessed it, it's another long walk to the gasoline station assuming you can find one that sells propane. Maybe you can stop at the grocery store and get a few bags of food to carry back home while you are at it. Pick up some soap and shampoo while you are there, oh .. yep, it's time to get those water containers out again, you're going to want to wash up from time to time! And then there's the matter of going to the bathroom, remember, you don't have running water anymore ....


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

I can't get rid of a lot of the services as they're I offer them as part of the deal for my meal ticket (I'm sorry... Roommate) The televison for instance, Is in the livingroom. My roommate Doesn't want to remain in his room the majority of the time.
In many ways it would be refreshing to simplfy. When I was considering property in western N Carolina, Part of the plan was to get rid of a lot of the services discused. Without constant stimulation from TV (in the background if nothing else) and not spending all my time working to support so many unnescisary services. This makes for a much more peaceful life. When I was 11 I spent a spring & summer in the Washington High desert in a small yurt. When I look back, This was one of the best times of my life. Of course, If I did Buy NC mountain land, My plan was to live in a trailer until I was able to build my own small passive solar cottage. Having property has the advantage that you can grow a lot of your own food.
The sea has a few more difficulties. Cheifly to me being slip rates, Boat upkeep, & Electricity to support AC & refridgeration. Any detailed methods of trimming these bown but still keepping them would be helpful. Honestly, I don't see how I'll be able to support ac. Refrigeration is a different story. There are a lot of foods that don't require Refridgaration. Be picky & just cool the things that I need for my emotional well being. Scale down the useful volume and increase the insulation. This will help keep electrical needs down. Without AC I think This is do-able. 
The Other electric hog is the computer. Most especially the monitor. I haven't seen any of the following mentioned anywhere in boating media I've read. Let me throw you all a bone. Weather you are dealing with my issues or not.
http://www.cwonline.com/store/view_product.asp?Product=1289
The Resolution isn't enough for every need, Just most of them. Resolution is getting better all the time.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

If you spent the same 900 bucks for a solar panel, you would have enough electricity to drive a moniter.
pigslo


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## ScrimpAndSail (Jul 10, 2007)

I'll need the solar panel or panals anyway. I think the key is keeping power consumption as low as possible. The lower the consumption, the more you can services you can afford yourself.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Just my thoughts on this scrimpandsail. If you set your goal just a tiny bit higher than "live like a monk" you will achieve it just as well. If you set it low, you will achieve that as well.
pigslo


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

I think "living like a monk" can be very beneficial if your goals are broad enough. If your motivation is just for your own comfort, then by all means set your goal "higher" and save up to buy the comforts you want, but austerity has a lot of practical ends in itself if comfort isn't a primary goal. The most obvious benefit of living simply is freedom to act. With little to own you and to spend your labor on, you are free to focus your attention on bigger goals than your own comfort, to roam out into places in this world that you wouldn't be able to if you were constrained by requirements like having a warm bed to sleep in, an assortment of foods to eat, etc. Unnecessary excess has a price beyond money, even the value your boat has in your mind ties you to it. Having a lot invested in a boat makes it a greater target for theft or general loss (in your own mind) and so you are less likely to leave it to go inland for weeks at a time to do what you really may have set out to do - explore the world. You are less likely to go to "dangerous places", more likely to only go where your insurance company allows, etc. You risk ending up one of the cruisers who has to stay in the safe waters, dealing with the high cost of services and the low regard paid to "cruisers" by the numbed locals who have seen more than their share of boats moving south and east along well established lines. To me leaving the large floating homes to the downsized home owners is a good course of action, because they have expectations about comfort and having a large boat gives them some sense of pride and achievement. But I'm just not one of them, to me having a boat that has more power than some "AA" batteries, more room than my tent, and floats further than my bicycle is a real boon to exploration, and is all I need or want. Again this is probably just a case of the lines between cruising and let's call it "exploring", because cruising can often be about hedonism, comfort, egoism, etc, whereas explorers are happy to trade those things and more away as a currency to buy freedom and range, a kind of secular asceticism that values creature comfort mostly as a means to an end (i.e. not getting hypothermia, etc). Or something. And though the original poster wasn't asking about doing with less in the context of going exploring, he did seem to be saying he didn't have much money, which in the end is going to mean either waiting longer, or doing with less. I didn't feel the original poster wanted to wait longer, in fact he seemed to want freedom most of all.


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