# info needed on a Formosa 41 and a reliance 44 please



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi everyone,
I'm hoping that someone can give me some info on an early 70's formosa 41 pilothouse. I would like to sail the oceans of the world with myself and two others and am not sure of the pros and cons of this boat. I know that they need new electrics and decks apparently. I'm wondering about their durability and their sailability. I'm basically buying the boat sight unseen for about 15 grand. The engine is apparently good, and the hull has been fixed.
I also looked at a Reliance 44, a balsa cored hull boat built in Montreal, Canada. I really like this boat's roominess, however it is balsa core, and I'm not a fan of it. Does anyone have any thoughts on this boat? 
I sincerely appreciate any and all comments, well, cept those that make fun of my hair.
Where's JeffH superinfoman ? Your thoughts are most valued by all I've noticed. I hope you have time to dispense a few nuggets of wisdom.
Hope y'all are well
cheers


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## jr438234606 (Apr 25, 2006)

A friend of mine is restoring a 51' Formosa Pilot House ketch. The boat is very roomy, sturdy, and sea kindly, but it is very slow. All of the bulkheads, decking, cabin sole, stringers, etc, seem to be over-sized and rigid; but this makes the boat overall extremely heavy. It's full of beautiful Asian carvings and joinery work. When he finishes the job, this will be one heck of a boat for long-term cruising. Not so good for day sailing.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

thanks johnr. the more info i get the better. i'm probably going to buy this boat sight unseen. I will get a survey done as well.
cheers
tony


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## chenniepreston (May 8, 2006)

*Run!!!*

All you will be doing is working on your Formosa 41. I've never owned one, but know lots of guys that do. Most are tired, run down, and are rotten. They look pretty salty, but the only salt you will see is the kind on your table if you buy one!



evolve said:


> Hi everyone,
> I'm hoping that someone can give me some info on an early 70's formosa 41 pilothouse. I would like to sail the oceans of the world with myself and two others and am not sure of the pros and cons of this boat. I know that they need new electrics and decks apparently. I'm wondering about their durability and their sailability. I'm basically buying the boat sight unseen for about 15 grand. The engine is apparently good, and the hull has been fixed.
> I also looked at a Reliance 44, a balsa cored hull boat built in Montreal, Canada. I really like this boat's roominess, however it is balsa core, and I'm not a fan of it. Does anyone have any thoughts on this boat?
> I sincerely appreciate any and all comments, well, cept those that make fun of my hair.
> ...


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## jr438234606 (Apr 25, 2006)

I must admit, my friend with the 51' Formosa discovered a lot of rot and termites in the deck. He bought the boat for $100K and has put $75K into her. The mechanical, electrical, and rigging were all sub-par too. However, he knew what he was getting into and bought the boat as a good "foundation" upon which to build. When he's finished (which he nearly is), the boat will be better than new, and I doubt he will be having to work on it much... at least not any more than any other boat owner has to work on their boat.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

It's a shame Jeff hasn't replied to this But I think he would say don't buy it.They are heavy ,poorly made,poor sailing,and besides that they tend to leak like a seive,I have seen boats that glassed over the problems,but the decks leak anyway. Good luck.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I am circumnavigating on a Reliance 44. I don't like the balsa core either, but I wouldn't let that stop me from buying a well-found boat. My bigger complaint is the extreme overhangs - They have no place on a cruising boat. I removed the mizzen & installed a hardtop that we love. All-in-all, it's a good, strong boat.

Rick


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Unless someone else has already completely re-done the boat...I would avoid the Formosa. They are beautiful, seaworthy (but slow and heavy) passagemakers capable of going anywhere....BUT...they have a terrible reputation with decks, leaks and rot. 
Don't know anything about the Reliance. Is it just above the waterline that it is cored or the whole hull. If whole hull, I would avoid it...but above the waterline is OK.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I always find it interesting that people who have never owned a Formosa are willing to pass along their advise based on “what they’ve heard”. I own a 1978 Formosa 41 Yankee Clipper and couldn’t be happier. Just as with cars, computers, televisions, what ever, there are some lemons in the barrel. But that doesn’t mean they are all bad.

Knight Hawk has beautiful teak decks over fiberglass. I’ve had several people tell me to strip it all off, fill in the screw holes and refinish the deck with non skid. Teak decks are non skid and beautiful to boot. Yes, they are a bit more work when it comes to maintenance but I wouldn’t trade them in for a glass deck ever. I had several planks that were coming loose so I had them replaced. The deck below is solid and has no rot at all. In fact I have no leaks in the decking anywhere.

The wiring is in as good a shape as any can be for being nearly 30 years old in a marine environment. Many older boats need a bit of rewiring at that age. There are some changes I will make along the way but none that present an immediate issue. On item is the original distribution panel. I’m not happy with it because it doesn’t allow for expansion, so it will be replaced.

The hulls on these boats are stout and strong. Most areas below the water line are an inch or more in thickness. The full keel is molded into the boat so there are no keel bolts to worry about. The rudder and propeller are well protected and unless you back into a bar you won’t hurt anything if you run aground. The full keel also makes it track like a freight train. The down side is that it has a wider turning radius and also backs like a freight train. Steering in reverse is nearly non existent. 

Yes they are a bit heavy and therefore a bit slower in the lighter winds. Unlike the high aspect ratio rigs, the Formosa’s have shorter, raked masts with longer booms. In light air they are somewhat inefficient, but then they were designed for the trades. When the wind picks up and others start to feel overpowered the Formosa comes to life. 5.8 to 6.2 knots is where my boat seems to settle in. The ride is smooth and comfortable. 

IMHO they are great cruising boats and shouldn’t be overlooked. Of course it depends on what you are looking for. If you are in a hurry to get where you’re going, this isn’t the boat to buy. But if you are looking for a comfortable, affordable cruiser then don’t scratch it off your list.

As for the Reliance I can’t speak on it because I’ve never owned one. I’ll leave it to someone who has experience with that make.  

Best of luck in your search and smooth sailing.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Sailguy...it ain't what I've heard...it is what current Formosa owners say on several different bulletin boards. A simple google will confirm that even the happy owners contend with lots of leaks. The multi year re-fit and discovery of all the rot on BobBitchin's Formosa "Lost Soul" in Latt & Atts magazine didn't do much for the reputation either. The "rumours" ae true. Furthermore...of the 12 Formosa 41's currently on sale at yacht world, the prevailing price is 50-60K with ONE being offered at $30K on an "as is...where is" basis. What does that tell you about the REAL condition of one being offered at $15K. 
I maintain my opinion that this is no boat to mess around with and pls. note that was not a blanket condemnation of Formosa 41's...only the one's where someone else has not repaired the problems which by now are evident on any which have not been in a ziplock bag for the last 30 years. It is THIS particular boat I am condemning. "The engine is "apprently good" anf the hull "has been fixed...doesn't exactly give one a warm and fuzzy feeling. Wanna bet on the survey results??


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

The two I've surveyed...
One was lovingly maintained, in good shape, he also spend over 50k in repairs, on a 50k purchase price.

The other one was in sad shape, bad deck, lots of leaks, in general, it was left alone for two years and went to hell in two years. 

I'd say they are good boats IF, underline, boldface, italic, really big IF.... its been maintained. 

They are heavy, seaworthy and I love the lines but, this is a personal opinion, too many potential holes, too many places for water to hurt you.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Camaraderie… my apologies is I came across as a bit harsh. I obviously have a bios when it comes to Formosa’s. I understand that they have has some issues and that people usually post the gripes about a boat. I felt someone should point out the good side for a change. Perhaps I was lucky and got my hands on one that was well maintained. 

I really wasn’t trying to deny the issues but rather point out that not all of them have the problems listed. Yes, there are some horribly maintained Formosa’s out there and prospective buyers should be very careful when looking to purchase one. But then that would be prudent for any purchase. 

I also agree that the resale value is low. I bought mine for 55K. But that was an added bonus for me. She’s a great boat and didn’t take any of my limbs to purchase her. I take great pride in keeping her functional and beautiful and I’m anxious to get my cruise started this fall. 

I agree that the one evolve is looking at may be in bad shape. But then who knows. I’ve happened upon a few great deals in my lifetime. I too would be interested to know what the survey says and I wouldn’t feel the fool if it was bad. I do understand that there are some real Taiwan turkeys out there. I hope evolve will keep us all posted on his progress.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Sailguy...no apologies necessary...we like good arguments here and I would expect an owner to staunchly defend his boat....as I do when someone disses Tayanas! Just wanted you to understand where I was coming from on my critical comments. As I said...a well maintained one can go anywhere safely and has beautiful lines. Enjoy yours!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*You are very misled*

Camaradie, I cant believe your comments. You need to apply all you have flamed about the Formosa to any of the boats of that era. Any boat that has teak decks that are 30 years old that havent been maintained are going to have problems. I have sailed with Formosas, CT's , Islander Traders..etc.. They are all very solid boats. I have seen Swans that werent worth sailing due to poor maintence. Kelly Petersen 44's are great boats, same era, same teak. A well kept Formosa will take you anywhere, as will the others. I think you are misleading people with bad information. Instead of saying they arent worth the time, say ANY boat of any age needs to be surveyed for damage due to AGE, not poor design. Oyster 70 listed in for sale europe, 1996 had all the teak removed to repair leaks. 
Im guessing you have a Bene or Hunter and drive a mini van...good day


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Stevo007 said:


> Camaradie, I cant believe your comments. You need to apply all you have flamed about the Formosa to any of the boats of that era. Any boat that has teak decks that are 30 years old that havent been maintained are going to have problems. I have sailed with Formosas, CT's , Islander Traders..etc.. They are all very solid boats. I have seen Swans that werent worth sailing due to poor maintence. Kelly Petersen 44's are great boats, same era, same teak. A well kept Formosa will take you anywhere, as will the others. I think you are misleading people with bad information. Instead of saying they arent worth the time, say ANY boat of any age needs to be surveyed for damage due to AGE, not poor design. Oyster 70 listed in for sale europe, 1996 had all the teak removed to repair leaks.
> Im guessing you have a Bene or Hunter and drive a mini van...good day


Please. The poster didn't ask about all boats of that age, or just boats with teak decks, he asked about ONE particular boat. And the one he asked about very likely has all those problems, is likely in disrepair (as seen in the asking price), and is heavy and slow to boot.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Get a life and READ my posts. You might wanna look at my avatar and blog too before you come on here and start dissing people with your first post newbie troll. 
Formosa's are PARTICULARLY KNOWN for leaks and rot as a search of the Formosa owners bulletin boards will prove. All boats need good surveys...but you need to be very diligent on the decks of a Formosa. The PARTICULAR boat in question was NOT a well kept one and my advice was to walk away. Why do you think this one was being offered at 1/4 the average asking price of other Formosa's Einstein??


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I sailed a Formossa from Oxnard down the coast of Ca to Catalina island, around to San Diego. I have spent some other time on it, but more dock-based. I am not an expert, but:

I like them. THey are wide open and very comfortable. It is an awesome liveaboard. The cockpit can leave something to be desired (coming from a Catalina), but the rest of the boat makes up for it. 

However, HOWEVER!!!, every one of the comments about them being a lot of maintenance and a nightmare of work are right on. The owner of the boat was always working on something... and this boat was in pristine condition. PRISTINE! Unles you are retired, have the money of Bill Gates, the nautical knowledge of Bob Perry, and the hands of Bob the Builder, you better approach with extreme caution. Rebuilding a boat sounds great the first week, maybe the first month... but after many, many tens of thousands of dollars and countless months of work, will it be worth it TO YOU!???

As far as this particulair boat goes, my guess is that you will end up being broke down financially, mentally, and physically with a boat that still won't float past the first marker. If you love Formossas (like I do), find one that has been cared for. I can tell you first hand, even with one that has been refurbished and maintained in pristine condition, you will be busy with it all the time. That is not a bad thing as long as you love the boat... just be prepared.

So the question is: Do you want to pay upfront and be out sailing, or pay it out and be working on it and not be sailing?? The Jeopardy clock is ticking...

- CD


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

A Reliance 44 was on my short list (I realize this is an old thread, SD, so none of your hall monitor antics, please!). While I too understand the reluctance to take on balsa core, I would prefer that as a problem than having a neglected teak deck.

The Reliance 44 I saw looked great, and the old couple who were selling it looked extremely sad that time had brought them to an anchor-swallowing point. Most importantly, you can find them finished in semi-custom style and never having seen salt water, making them from a wear-and-tear point of view a "newer" boat than their age would make one suspect.

A quick Google found me this:
Reliance 44 Ketch BOATS FOR SALE ONTARIO CANADA
Reliance Ketch or Cutter 1980 Boat For Sale
Reliance 44 :: Serious Offshore Cruiser For Sale


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

I like the look of the Formosa, and considered one. There are a lot of negatives when looking at the 60K price range, all need more work than I was prepared to do in a foreign country. CAM is right just read the owners forum.
Another thing a boat of that size would be nice but not necessary, its not a boat to take out for a quick sail around the bay on your day off its for living on and going some where with the wind across oceans.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Don't buy it sight unseen, even at 15K, sometimes you gotta back off and let the boat buying heebie jeebies wear off. I looked at the formosas, I didn't know they were made in Montreal, thought they were from Taiwan. Most had been in bad repair which is understandable, considering many cruising couples jump ship after the first heavy weather and practically abandon the boat. 

Good luck


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I sailed in a Formosa, but don't want to talk about it because people give me crap for it, but does that qualify me to give my opinion???

The deck had to be redone due to above mentioned problems, the teak was removed and deck glassed and painted with anti-skid, everywhere euqipment had failed, and the boat required a lot of maintenance, mainly because its too big..sounded solid, but very slow, true it sails on tracks, but try to move it from the track....good luck....


















I found it to be a fun boat, but not what I would own...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

ianhlnd said:


> ...didn't know they were made in Montreal, thought they were from Taiwan. Good luck


The Reliance was made in Montreal. The Formosa was definitely made in Taiwan.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Steve-

Your attack on Cam was pretty off-the-mark. Cam is one of the more fair and open minded people on this board, and doesn't let his ownership of a particular boat bias his posts... and saying he has a Hunter or Bendytoy means you obviously didn't read his posts very well... as he clearly stated that he has a Tayana...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Poor Cam...*

Sorry I didnt realize that you are some kid just talking trash. I mean..dissing?..my kid talks like that at his school..your comments and your avatar dont really impress me. I was defending the fact that any boat has to be inspected. Yes, old chinese teak deck boats do leak after many years. Most of the good Formosa's have had their teak decks removed and glassed. The workmanship on any of the Teakers are in the most part very good. Ive been on several abused Tayana 37's that I would not buy. It really depends on who owned it. Always get a survey. Dont ever pass up a Formosa just because its a Formosa. Forget the flaming Cam...Troll noob..lol..get a life. Its just ppl that might not see things like you do. I am a new member of Sailnet. Most of the posts and posters have good questions and it seems that several ppl are willing to share their opinion. I think all in all this is a good forum. I am also glad to see you are an EX Moderator..now go to bed..you have school in the morning.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Stevo007 said:


> Forget the flaming Cam...Troll noob..lol..get a life. ... I am also glad to see you are an EX Moderator..now go to bed..you have school in the morning.


O-M-G! What is happening to civility? First 'worldsail' drops out of nowhere asking for advice on some idiotic plan, and trashes anybody who doesn't smother him in warm hugs and kisses for his brilliant socialist plan to 'see the so. pac!'

Then this guy goes off on Cam for having an opinion contrary to his. I mean, my God... is the anonymity of the internet to blame for this anti-social behaviour? Would these people get in your face and be this rude?

If so then damn cell phones, bees and global warming, we don't belong here at all. Bring on the asteroid!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Steve007-

Unfortunately, Cam has a lot more credibility on this site than you do.... in your first two posts, or more accurately attacks, you come out swinging, and aren't even bright enough to realize that Cam *has made some very valid criticisms of the specific boat in question-which, if you had bothered to read the thread, was going for 1/4 the normal market price for these boats.* If the boat is at a quarter of the market price, there is generally going to be something very wrong with it. Common sense would say that if the owner could ask for more, he probably would... and that he isn't asking anywhere near what would be market comparable says volumes about the condition of this particular boat. Only an idiot would think that this boat would be in anything than horrible condition.

Also, Cam isn't pointing out anything that wouldn't be heard on a Formosa specific forum. It is a fairly well-known fact that the Formosas had some problems with their teak decks, especially if they weren't maintained perfectly.

You even say that most of the the *"Most of the good Formosa's have had their teak decks removed and glassed."*, which indicates that the teak decks were a pretty well-known and common problem among this particular boat line.

Finally, I'd have to agree with Cam-you are most definitely a noob troll... with only two posts to your name at the time I write this-both of which are rather irrational attacks against one of the more knowledgable and credible people on this forum.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Looks like the "007" license to kill has become a license to be an ass. Best way to deal with trolls is to just hit the ignore button.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Stevo,

I looked back on Cam's post and still don't understand why you are coming off on him. HE IS RIGHT ON! He is also very recognized on more than just this forum. He has a very good rep on Cruisers forum and ssca. 

Your attacks on his are so offbase I do not understand the point. Formossa: Good boat and a lot of room and fun to be on. I have. I liked them. BUT THEY ARE A WHOLE LOT OF WORK IF THEY ARE IN PRISTINE CONDITION! YOU CAN BET THE FARM THIS ONE IS NOT IN PRISTINE CONDITION!!! 

Besides, I am the catalina owning mini van driver. Keep your insults to me - they fit me better. Cam is out of your league.

- CD
Minivan owner (soon to be)
Catalina owner
Kid (at 36) just talking trash


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Steve007, I agree with you Cam is an Ass Full Of Crap...you have a friend here..he knows nothing about Formosas...I do....I do...

Besides he sails a Tayana, a man with no taste, also...

Friend 007...You don't happen to have a photo of you to post do you?? I like to see my friends....

And this guy CD...don't bother with him...dinghy sailor....

Don't forget...post the photo, ok??


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## TSteele65 (Oct 19, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Steve007, I agree with you Cam is an Ass Full Of Crap...you have a friend here..he knows nothing about Formosas...I do....I do...
> 
> Besides he sails a Tayana, a man with no taste, also...
> 
> ...


...and Giu has a fat boat.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Stevo007,6,5,4,3,2,1,0

Sorry but I think you have blown it.

You had a chance of being given a lot of relevant information if you just listened, I once had no idea about the boats in the US market, and only new I wanted one to take home. **** I nearly bought a Catalina 38 until I was given the right information from this knowledgeable, if not playful bunch of people (AFOC).
It is in your interest to redeem yourself. Be happy and learn


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

It is much better to be thought a fool, rather than mash the keyboard and prove it.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

TSteele65 said:


> ...and Giu has a fat boat.


Kiss my rear end   that is....if you can catch it!!! 

Here's fat for you!!!


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

What a waste of a good thread.
Buy a Bene and go sailing, there a great value.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Giu-

You showing us the bow again, because that's all we'll ever see of your boat after you break the second boom.


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## Cruiserwannabe (Jan 28, 2006)

Steve send Giu some pics he is a very friendly guy 
this was along read and was getting boring....thanks (G) ya have me rolling on the floor!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I just realized that Giu can't be the one on the boat... it's not even his boat... he is actually the guy taking photos of the boat from another boat... probably a powerboat... Otherwise, how is he getting the photos...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Steve - don't be a ******** man. Get to know a few of the folk here before you start throwing barbs. This place is all about give and take, bit of this and a bit of that, if you know what I mean. Come in here and insult someone without knowing **** about them , you will just get it back in spades. Be a tosser if you will, maybe it's what you are best at, I don't know and care even less.

SD - If that's not Giu sailing that thing then something is amiss. Surely there cannot be two suckers as ugly as that wanker at the wheel in a country as small as Portugal ? Giu likes to show his bow cos he believes (one must admit with some veracity) that none of us will ever see anything more than his stern disappearing into the distance. Mind you after seeing the pics he may well ask "does my arse look big in this?" Really needs a wide angle lens.  

Giu - I'm already running, you'll have to be quick to catch up on dry land, especially when I switch to Kangaroo mode.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TDW-

It's all done with Photoshop...that isn't Alex... just his face photoshopped in... as we know, he has serious photoshop skillz...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Kiss my rear end   that is....if you can catch it!!!
> 
> Here's fat for you!!!


Hey Giu,
In the parlance of the young 'fat' I am informed is a compliment. Oh, only when referring to a boat or a car or a house etc, definitely NOT when referring to wimmin. Or for that matter your arse but that's another story.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TDW-

Fat is bad... Phat is good...


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

You do reali e Alex' boat wa called fat becau e the OP had a tupid broken key board and the illy thing didn't have a key between the A and the D


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

why is everybody callin Giu fat? Did I miss something?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

ROFLMAO... We're not calling Giu fat... we're talking about his boat.


Catalina34 said:


> why is everybody callin Giu fat? Did I miss something?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

SD, thanks for clarifying that, been away for a while, then why is his boat fat?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

His boat is actually phat... a great boat, even if it is only a third of a real boat and missing two hulls... but don't tell Giu I said that... but some people have called it fat...and he's taking a bit of exception to that...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Sorry to all I offended*

Yes I did come out swinging, I made bad choices in my first post, I sometimes go defensive for the wrong reasons. I would like to say i'm sorry to the board for my bad behavior. And personally to Cam, I am sorry for the attack, I can see what the post was about and I went the wrong way with it. I do have experience sailing and with several boats, but not to the level that you have. I stand embarrassed and sorry. I will post only if I have something constructive to say. Good day to you all, Steve


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Stevo007 said:


> Yes I did come out swinging, I made bad choices in my first post, I sometimes go defensive for the wrong reasons. I would like to say i'm sorry to the board for my bad behavior. And personally to Cam, I am sorry for the attack, I can see what the post was about and I went the wrong way with it. I do have experience sailing and with several boats, but not to the level that you have. I stand embarrassed and sorry. I will post only if I have something constructive to say. Good day to you all, Steve


Steve

Nice to have you back.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Yes. Welcome.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Stevo007 said:


> Yes I did come out swinging, I made bad choices in my first post, I sometimes go defensive for the wrong reasons. I would like to say i'm sorry to the board for my bad behavior. And personally to Cam, I am sorry for the attack, I can see what the post was about and I went the wrong way with it. I do have experience sailing and with several boats, but not to the level that you have. I stand embarrassed and sorry. I will post only if I have something constructive to say. Good day to you all, Steve


Well done Steve, and welcome to Sailnet...


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## BADG (Dec 24, 2001)

The masses are asses comes to mind.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

> Yes I did come out swinging, I made bad choices in my first post, I sometimes go defensive for the wrong reasons. I would like to say i'm sorry to the board for my bad behavior. And personally to Cam, I am sorry for the attack, I can see what the post was about and I went the wrong way with it. I do have experience sailing and with several boats, but not to the level that you have. I stand embarrassed and sorry. I will post only if I have something constructive to say. Good day to you all, Steve


Ok everyone... a group hug!!!

Nah, come on back Steve. Not a problem. Everyone on this board has bad days and says things they should not... well, except me, as I am perfect and never lie.

- CD


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> as I am perfect and never lie.
> 
> - CD


Well you lied about your youth hobbies,










and about your daytime job....but I forgive you....   I think in name of PC we will all forgive you....CD...


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## sasfish (Oct 1, 2008)

I very rarely come on with my two cents but damn you lads can go on. I think there are some good points to the Formosa, however it should be weighed with the cost of on going labor, because there will be labor end of story. If you love it buy it. One of my favorite saying is fitting for this thread: The only thing two skippers can agree on is what the third is doing wrong. Good day all.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I don't think they are listening - you replied to a 3 year old post.


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## sasfish (Oct 1, 2008)

*re*

ah I see that now thanks. If all else fails read the instructions.


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## Kenif (Jan 6, 2010)

No don't be disheartened.
If people didn't take the time and effort to respond to pointless threads the existence of this site could be jeopardised.

keep at it I say and the older the better.


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