# Did I miss the boat?



## rossir (Aug 11, 2006)

Hello to everyone out there! My name is Rick, and I
have deveolped a very strong case of the
wannabe/gonnabe sailor blues. The trouble is, I am
starting this a bit late in life, it seems. I am 52,
and I am just a novice. I have a dinghy (bluejay)
that I have taken out just a few times in the last
month, and I have been reading a surfing voraciously
about cruising. I also have signed up with the Power
Squadron in my area, and am taking an engine
maintenance course now, and a seamanship course next
month (all that is available!). I've also crewed a
couple of times this fall, but I live in the northeast
and the season has come to a close. 

The thing is, I have this dream to end up live and
cruising on a sailboat. It will prpbably take 4 years
as I have 2 children who live with me full-time and my
youngest is 4 years away from college. I will be 56
by then - and I wonder if I will be too old as my
plans now only include me, no partner. I have never
been offshore in a small boat, though am able, in good
shape, and resourceful. I have every intention of
learning all that I can - perhaps taking one of those
week-long liveaboard courses that ofer ASA
certificaiton. Certainly, from the armchair side, I
am a very good researcher, avid learner, and am
committed to learn all I can about systems,
engineering, structure, etc.

Any suggestions out there? Anyone in Connecticut,
where I live?


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I got back into sailing 4 summers ago after having been away from it for almost 40 years. That was 2002, come November, I'll be heading out from Galveston Bay (where I bought the boat) after completing a refit/upgrade, for Florida for the winter, then up the East Coast with the seasons. I just turned 57, so I don't think you need to feel it is too late in life.

There are many good books on the "Recommended Reading List" in the General Discussion topic, about cruising, and all of them would be helpful in learning what's involved. Though most are more bluewater oriented, they are still good guides for any type of cruising.

The two things I would suggest you do at this point, aside from reading, are to save as much money as you can, and get as much sailing experience as possible. Of the two, money comes first, because if you can afford to not work, the experience can come as you go along.

Good luck with your plans,


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## rossir (Aug 11, 2006)

*thank you*

Thank you for your response! It sounds like we will
have similar trajectories, as I have 4 years to get
some sea legs.

How did you gain experience since 2002? I could buy a
small baot now, and that will not affect my longer
term financial planning to any great degree, though I
am hesitant to jump right into it. I think I might
wait till next season, ginivng me more time tocheck
out a lot more boats. Should I talk to brokers?

Also, what kind of baot did you select, and why? What
were the options, and why Texas. it seems that you
are planning coastal cruising. My dream is to take a
boat into and throught he Caribbean/ Central
America/Mexico, and I am thinking toward the 34 foot
range whaen the time is right.

Rick


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## lsusailing (Sep 9, 2006)

PBzeer has given good advice, may I add one? Work out and stay in shape. If you stay healthy, you can sail into your 80's. It was be terrible to have the time and money to sail, and not be able to.
Fair winds


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Some say, don't spend money on a boat until you're ready to go. Other's say differently. Each way has it's merits. One thing to remember with boats though, is that you have to go with what feels right to you. In other words, don't do it because somebody else says do it, do it because it makes sense to you.

What I did, was buy a 20 footer for around $2500 to see if I still enjoyed sailing as much as when I was a kid. By August, I had a 26 footer that was roomy enough to weekend on. Being in Indiana and not on Lake Michigan, that was as big a boat as was practicable moneywise. What I learned from that boat was I was comfortable staying on one. That winter, I started doing my research on buying and living on one.

Boat choice is a function of realistic expectations of how and where you'll use it, cost, and space. For myself, being a singlehander, I wanted something in the 28-32 foot range. I did though look at some that were larger. The boat I ended up buying had been the kind that was at the top of my search list. The one I found that seemed the best deal, happened to be in Texas.

Though I had little first hand knowledge on keelboats, all my research pointed to this one. Fortunately, it proved to be the right boat. It has the storage and tankage for extended coastal cruising, handles well, and I feel comfortable on it, both at the dock, or under sail. And though I only plan to coastal cruise, I know it will go further if I decide to.

Now, whether that approach works for you, I can't say. It seems to work best if you take the good parts from any and all advice you get, and make a plan that works for you.


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## rossir (Aug 11, 2006)

thak you, ISUSailing, for your thought!

PBeezer: I see from your signature that you have an Ontario 32 - they seem to have a good following. How do they differ from C&C's own designs? It looks like they might have upgraded interior craftsmanship, and perhaps better fitted for cruising.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

They were designed as a ICW and Great Lakes friendly boat, well suited to coastal cruising. Though some don't like the absence of a rear berth (of any type), it does provide a lot of storage from the cockpit, as well as making things very accessible. They are very solidly built and the craftsmanship is a step above typical production levels. I believe C&C were more into perfomance/cruiser types, though they did try to be more cruiser oriented with their Landfall series.

Here's a link to some Canadian boats from the mid 70's to 80's.
http://sailquest.com/market/
I found it a useful comparsion tool, though it isn't that comprhensive about the individual boats.


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## rossir (Aug 11, 2006)

thanks John


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

*Not too late!*

Rick, for inspiration:

My husband comes from 5 generations of Kansas farmers -- NOT the environment where you would expect a sailor. His first ever time on a sailboat was an afternoon daysail on a Catalina 24, when he was 50 years old. 5 years later we live aboard fulltime, he *teaches* sailing at the Naval Academy, and we're planning to sail off 'somewhere south' in another 3 years.

Here's our personal trajectory; may not be right for everyone but worked for us. It included buying an inexpensive older boat right away (a then-25-year-old Erickson 27) that was big enough to weekend on and small enough to learn to sail on, and cheap enough that we could sell it for close to what we'd paid for it when it was time to move up. We also invested in a one-week liveaboard/learn-to-sail charter in the USVI/BVI, very intensive and focused, we learned a lot, and had lots of fun. Expensive but utterly worth it for newbies with a late start. We moved aboard as soon as it was practical. Even though we both have land jobs and sometimes our boat seems more floating condo than sailing vessel (due to time constraints) living aboard gave us the opportunity to learn & upgrade the systems, tap into the community, and save lots of $$, so when the time comes to retire & go, we'll be as ready as possible.

Best wishes, E.


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## rossir (Aug 11, 2006)

eryka:

I am also considering taking one of those liveaboard week-long courses, also in the USVI! What kind of boat do you now live on?


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## EagleSailtwo (Jul 28, 2006)

I am 51, and many years ago I had planned the similar dream. I bought a 32' Alden sloop and lived aboard that boat for two years, and while it had decent accommodations, it did start to become claustrophobic to me and I was not comfortable with that and so decided this was not the right boat for me and sold it!

I decided back then, 1998, that if I were going to do this again, I would not consider anything less than a 40' and a double cabin type boat would be a big plus. I did a lot of research for the best suited boat in my financial range and have since July found the boat I wanted and have been sailing and living aboard once again! I am currently in the process of learning this boat and making adjustments and refitting as well as outfitting for extended cruising. I'm planning to shove off in a year or so, buy then, the boat and me, should be well acquainted!


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

rossir said:


> eryka:
> 
> I am also considering taking one of those liveaboard week-long courses, also in the USVI! What kind of boat do you now live on?


rick - this is a sistership to ours, only info I could find on the 'net: http://www.seeboat.com/boatlisting....lts=1&startrow=1376&show_results=1&sort=DESC#

Do you have someone specific in mind for your learn-to-sail? The guy that taught us is still in the business, I can PM you with his contact info if you want.


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## rossir (Aug 11, 2006)

eryka: I wold like that contact info, though I may not contact for  couple of months - trying to figure out my children's schedule so I can get away for a week. My emil is [email protected].

Saw that CSY - I am not familiar with them - I'll have to look more of them up.


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## rossir (Aug 11, 2006)

EagleSailTwo: Do you singlehand? 40' sounds like too much boat for me, but then again, I only have a 14 footer - so much I need to learn!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*age and boat buying*

rossir: Here's another voice to let you know you are not alone! I'm 52. I became interested in sailing over 15 years ago. I spent the ensuing years reading everything I could get my hands on, and dreaming all the while. I read lots about "getting your first boat", and weighed the big-versus-small issue carefully. I compromised...I finally got my first "real" sailboat about three years ago, and it was a 25-footer. We had to move to another part of the U.S., and sold our boat. I had many regrets about not having a sailboat, but I had to get used to the new city and surroundings, so I did not bring my first sailboat with me. I finally reached a point where I felt it was time. Once again...boat size came into question. I am 5'11" and 170 lbs. and my wife is a very energetic 106 lbs. She also loves to sail. We decided that my years of study might compensate for our relatively small fund of experience. In particular, we wanted to spend as much time on the boat as possible, which meant many overnights. Comfort was therefore a factor, with the boat having to double as sleeping quarters. Our prior boat was nice, but felt sometimes like camping in a small tent on overnights. There was an earlier comment about comfort as a positive factor when dealing with a lukewarm spouse. I agree. Nothing will kill your chance to sail as easily as a spouse who hates your boat. We went contrary to conventional wisdom about boat size, and bought a 42-foot sailboat on a large lake within driving distance from home. Some would see our lack of extensive experience as a real problem. I anticipate some criticism on this board for the way I have approached this.
My wife loves the boat. I have moved ahead carefully with it. Our neighbors at our dock are incredibly generous in lending a hand and giving advice. I'm still at the steep part of the learning curve withthe boat, and will be for some time. So far, the greatest challenge has been gracefully backing the boat into the slip. 
We plan to eventually retire to live full-time on a sailboat, and to cruise long distance. I felt that getting competent handling a larger boat was the right way for us to meet our eventual goal.
My take-home lessons from my personal situation:
1) Conventional wisdom is great, but do what feels right in your own judgment. 
2) Be realistic: know your own limitations. This does not preclude being a bit bold, but you must consider the consequences of inadequate preparation and inappropriate risk-taking
3) Prepare, read, then prepare some more. While nothing is a substitute for hands-on experience, understanding underlying principles and how to approach situations can take you pretty far
4) Go for it!
5) The best boat in the world for you is the one that will get you out there happily on the water....today!
6) Pick a safe place to begin sailing, and NEVER go out early on in extreme conditions or if severe weather is in the forecast. Hopefully choose a place where, if you get into trouble the lee shore is not 3000 miles away!
7) You are only too old if you think you are!
Happy sailing
Q


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## rossir (Aug 11, 2006)

Good advice Quetzalcoatl. and good handle too! For me, 40' seems like a real stretch, a I am planning, at least now, only for myself, with occasional guest. I also think that getting out as much as I can inmy 14 footer will help a great deal toward understanding the larger boats. My blue-jay is a training vessel - she is rigged the same way as boats up to 35 or so - main and jib and spinnaker rigging.


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## EagleSailtwo (Jul 28, 2006)

rossir said:


> EagleSailTwo: Do you singlehand? 40' sounds like too much boat for me, but then again, I only have a 14 footer - so much I need to learn!


rossir

While this boat is new to me, I am still getting acquainted and learning this boat as I go. I haven't yet tried my mizzen, haven't even bent it on! My auto-pilot, an old Autohelm 4000, worked once! I plan now to install a new auto pilot. To answer your question, yes one can single-hand this 43' ketch but I would not think of trying to raise the main without a working auto pilot! I have taken her out alone and only let out the furling jib, easy to do and you don't have to leave the cockpit!


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## rossir (Aug 11, 2006)

EagleSailTwo: Too bad about your auto-pilot - It seems tha tI often read on these forums about auto pilots breaking down.


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## wlcoxe (Jan 26, 2001)

Rossir,
Where in CT are you and what is your availability to go sailing? I have just turned 61, single-hand our ODay 40 out of New London, and love company on board when the Admiral isn't available, and even when she is. I got back into sailing in my mid-fifties, and am always learning.
Bill Coxe, O40 Kukulcán, New London, CT


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## rossir (Aug 11, 2006)

wlcoxe - Bill! I live in Essex and would LOVE to be able to get out on the water! I am less than 1/2 hour from you, and I work at home, so I am often available.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi, you are never too old to start. I started 30 years ago with a 16' Comet, then 2 years later moved to a 22' Oday with a 1 yr son. My daughter, son & wife tried it over the years with my wife even in chartered 30s' boats in the Chesapeake but did not get in to it. The result was I sailed for 28 yrs just in the Barnegat Bay about day solo about 60% of the time. But I did bareboat about 13 weekends 30'-40' with guys from work in the Chesapeake & just dreamed about a BVI week. Last August, being alone I bought a 28' Oday with solo being most of the time. Since I am retired I solo maostly on week days. I think that I could have goene a couple of feet larger . I do have Sarah (Self-contained unit for Automatic Response at the Helm) to help on tacks & raising the main. I have a cradle in the slip to control the bow if there is wind for solo docking. I met a guy this year that soloed his 42' from Norfolk to Cape May. It is better to grow into a little bigger than comfortable boat than to quicky outgrow your existing one. 
I am 65 but feel younger. A small number of guys in the marina are in their 70s & get alone with minimum help for day sails in 30' to 37'. I have not tried to weigh anchor in moderate wind solo yet. 
My peers are dropping by the wayside. "Don't wait for your boat to come in, Swim out to it!"


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## rossir (Aug 11, 2006)

thanks capgillh - I've gotten so many goods words of encouragement! By the way, I have never heard of Sarah. Where can I learn more about it?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Nope.... even learning this late in life isn't a problem.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

"Sarah" is my name for a Simrad Autopilot. It is surely female because you have to be careful to push her buttons the right way. Once I became a little disoriented & initiated a jibe. She slapped me back by breaking the topping lift that I had forgotten to loosen.
Once you have some experience with a 'smaller' boat then one could leverage that into chartering bigger boats in areas that would take you month(s) to reach in the smaller boat. 
Enjoy!
Captain Bill, ret. from everyday work


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

LOL...sounds about right... a bit tempermental, and can be vicious if you piss her off...


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## rossir (Aug 11, 2006)

sailingdog: what type of boat do you call home? I'd really like to learn more about your sailing experiences, having noticed and appreciated your comments to many other posts. 

here are a couple of more specific questions: some places I read that having a certain amount of nylon rode attached to your chain rode reduces the "shock load", yet elsewhere, I read that cruisers will want an all chain rode. What do you think, and why. Also: are there ways that a fin keel/spade rudder can be made more seaworthy - so many of the more recent boats I look at don"t even sport a skeg - I understand the comments about the market going more toward comfort, beaminess, speed for coastal sailing, but are there other innovations that allow for this design to better weather blue water? For example, the loss of directional stability in large seas: is there some way of deploying a sea anchor, or series drogue, that helps compensate for this? 

Or am I simply showing my lack of understanding on these matters?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I sail on a small trimaran for most of the time, but crew on a very wide range of other boats.

Nylon rode is nice because it does stretch significantly, and reduce or eliminate the "shock" loads that can occur with an all chain rode. An all chain rode is nice because you can anchor with less scope and it is far more chafe resistant, especially in areas with rock or coral heads. However, if you do use an all chain rode, you really need to have a fairly long nylon snubber, and use it. This gives you the shock absorbing properties of a nylon rode, while retaining the anti-chafe and short scope of an all-chain rode. All-chain rode can be difficult for many smaller cruising boats, as they are far heavier than a combination rode.

A good compromise is often 30-90' of chain and then the rest of the rode being nylon. But this may depend a lot on where you sail. Some areas have relatively deep anchorages, but not much coral-combination rodes make far more sense in those areas. In areas with a lot of coral and rock, an all-chain rode makes more sense.

The main problem with fin keel/spade rudders is that in the case of a grounding or very heavy seas, there is very little support or protection for the rudder. This is not to say that spade rudders aren't seaworthy, but a skeg obviously provides the rudder a lot more support and protection than it sticking out into the water on its own.

Many modern boats are far more beamy and designed to be more "floating condo" than sailboat in some ways. A coastal cruiser can afford the negatives of the changes in modern boat design, far better than a bluewater boat.

Large open spaces found in many newer designs are rather quite dangerous in heavy seas. Getting thrown across a salon that is six feet wide is less dangerous than getting thrown 10 feet. Most modern coastal cruisers don't have any berths that would be suitable for use on a longer, heavy weather open ocean passage. The roomy cabins that sell a boat at a boat show, don't make much sense on a bluewater passage.

One thing that I highly recommend that all boats carry, if they're going to go on longer open-water passages is a Jordan Series Drogue. It is probably one of the best, and most cost-effective pieces of safety gear you can buy.

Hope this helps...


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

capbillh said:


> "Sarah" is my name for a Simrad Autopilot. It is surely female because you have to be careful to push her buttons the right way.


Nah, Arthur the Autohelm is most definitely male, chugging along on his predetermined course, no 'situational awareness,' oblivious to subtlety, nuances and changes in the outside environment ...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Eryka-

So, if you had a wind vane, it'd have a woman's name, but the autopilot is male...


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> The main problem with fin keel/spade rudders is that in the case of a grounding or very heavy seas, there is very little support or protection for the rudder. This is not to say that spade rudders aren't seaworthy, but a skeg obviously provides the rudder a lot more support and protection than it sticking out into the water on its own.


Besides tracking straighter, I suspect also that the engineering stresses on a fin keel (deep, narrow, with a short attachment to the hull for its area) will be far greater than those on a full or modfied full keel (shallow with a long attachment to the hull); someone like Jeff H can probably give you a more quantitative analysis of this.


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## rossir (Aug 11, 2006)

well sailingdog - my interest is steering in the direction of a skeg, but I don't see them in the more recently produced boats. I also do like the tartans - 34-37 - but I'm not resolved to go with spade. Any designs you could recommend?


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## rossir (Aug 11, 2006)

eryka - your CSY is the kind of keel/rudder combination I am interested in. How does she handle?


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

rossir said:


> eryka - your CSY is the kind of keel/rudder combination I am interested in. How does she handle?


rossir - the tradeoffs between tracking straight and agility will depend on what you're using the boat for. Our modified-full keel handles a lot like a tank when trying to turn in tight places like a marina, somewhat aided by the barn door sized rudder. She does quite well steering a straight line out in the open, though. CSYs have are nicknamed 'reef crunchers' - sturdy, heavy, overbuilt, slow. You don't buy these boats for performance, they were built specifically for the heavier winds of the tropics and the rigors of the charter trade.


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Eryka-
> 
> So, if you had a wind vane, it'd have a woman's name, but the autopilot is male...


Exactly! Quietly, without any fuss, simple, reliable ... girl power!! "Wendy the Windvane" is a tad too obvious, and probably "Monica the Monitor" is too. I'll need more time to think about a good name, good thing wind vane isn't on this years' boat show purchase list ...


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

eryka said:


> Exactly! Quietly, without any fuss, simple, reliable ... girl power!!


But what kind of gifts do you give a windvane to keep her that way? Enquiring minds want to know!


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

Take her on trips to exotic locations, and give her lots of space, understanding , and a gentle touch ;-)


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Many modern boats are far more beamy and designed to be more "floating condo" than sailboat in some ways. A coastal cruiser can afford the negatives of the changes in modern boat design, far better than a bluewater boat.
> 
> Large open spaces found in many newer designs are rather quite dangerous in heavy seas. Getting thrown across a salon that is six feet wide is less dangerous than getting thrown 10 feet. Most modern coastal cruisers don't have any berths that would be suitable for use on a longer, heavy weather open ocean passage. The roomy cabins that sell a boat at a boat show, don't make much sense on a bluewater passage.


I think I'd add glazing to this list. Some coastal boats seem intent on making it light and bright down below, it can be difficult (read "more expensive") to make that expanse of clear plexiglas stout enough to resist the force of tons of water when the going gets rough.

Now shall we start a separate thread on the sugar-scoop transoms vs traditional closed ones?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

eryka said:


> I think I'd add glazing to this list. Some coastal boats seem intent on making it light and bright down below, it can be difficult (read "more expensive") to make that expanse of clear plexiglas stout enough to resist the force of tons of water when the going gets rough.
> 
> Now shall we start a separate thread on the sugar-scoop transoms vs traditional closed ones?


Very true... large ports are fun to look out, until what you see out of them is all green water in a storm... 

Yes, please do start a new thread on sugar scoop swim platforms.


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