# Bavaria vs Hallberg - Rassy



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi everybody, I am in de process of deciding which will be the boat of our dreams, and before we start looking for the final boat, we want the opinion of the experts of the list. Compare the Bavaria49 vs. Hallberg-Rossy 49, and at the same time what other brand will be comparable


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

These two boats are at the opposite extremes of the scale. Bavarias are built to as low a cost as possible. Halberg Rassies are built to as high a standard of quality as possible. Bavarias are costal boats, Halberg Rassies,are passage makers. Prices for a new HR could reach double what the Bavaria costs.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Agree in everything...
My question goes regarding performance, safety on high seas and handeling.
Price I will see on a later day. $ of a new Bavaria 49 can buy me a 1990 HR42.
Maybe I reformulate my question...
I know the HR is the best, but what about the Bavaria?


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## hamiam (Dec 15, 2000)

You need to tell us what you intend to do in the boat before we can give you a good answer. If you are just doing coastal sailing, buy the Bavaria and bank the extra money. If you intend to sail around the world, then the Bavaria is entirely inappropriate and the HR would be a good choice. The Bavaria should be a quicker boat and the HR ALOT better in heavy weather.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hamiam:The idea is to start doing some costal cruising in Chile, especially in the south channels and Patagonia, then who knows, My wife and I will be retired, time and distance will not be a problem. If after we decide to go around the world, I wouldn’t like to be sailing a boat that won''t take me there. In your opinion the Bavaria wouldn’t do so if the time comes, If so Why? What problems will I encounter?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

From my observations, I generally think of Bavarias as being near the bottom of the list of high production builders when it comes to build quality. These are comparable boats to the lower cost Beneteaus, Hunters and Catalinas and perhaps not even as well built as the better model Beneteaus. These would not be boats that I would consider for cruising the more remote areas of the world. There are dozens of brands that would be better suited. 

On the other hand, Halberg Rasseys have one of the best reputations for quality offshore cruisers. 

Jeff


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## Magic_Moments (May 15, 2003)

I read recently that the Chilean government was requiring boats transiting or cruising in and around Tierra del Fuego and Straits of Magellan to carry insurance from Lloyds or one other company which I don''t recall. If it is true that they are requiring that insurance, then you may want to check with a broker for that company as to what boats they would be willing to cover.

I think I read that news on the Pardy''s website www.landlpardy.com

Ken

PS if I had the $300k or so I would want the HR 36, but thats me. I went on some Barvaria''s at a boat show and was very underwhelmed.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Jef:
Thanks for your comments, any chance to give me a list of the brands that would be better suited. Maybe I must look at them
Thanks


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## michaelspqr (Oct 10, 2003)

I found this string very interesting... I personally would be interested in that list of boats to consider. Thanks in advance!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Jeff wrote,” There are dozens of brands that would be better suited." 

Can any body with experience give such a list? It will be a very interesting starting point for most of us
Thanks.


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

A couple of thoughts on HR''s, Bavarias and requests for a list of competent offshore boats:

John Neal has a very nice website (www.mahina.com) with an excellent IMO overview of the various design issues faced by offshore boats and crews, along with his own recommendations. He then provides a listing of 30 or more brands with brief comments on offshore suitability. John has close to 400,000 offshore miles now and, while he''s preferential to HR''s for his own purposes, his counsel is wise and thoughtful.

Bavaria as a cruising boat? I''m surely missing something here; perhaps ''cruising'' is meant as ''weekending in the creek down the river''? I examined a variety of Bavarias at the recent Southampton Boat Show - they are an immensely popular brand here in England - and found them terribly disappointing. To give just one brief example, when next aboard one imagine moving about the cabin as you come onwatch, need to cook up some oatmeal, followed by going on deck to rig the inner stay...all while romping and rolling along in a seaway. Hand holds below? places to brace your feet on deck? cockpit protection? what inner stay?

Practical Boat Owner - one of the bigger boating magazines over here - recently summarized Bavaria''s production/marketing strategy, I thought, fairly and quite accurately: they pick a boat size (e.g. 36''), then research the competition''s pricing for the same size/type boat, and then determine - from a marketing perspective - what price their boat must be sold at to be commercially successful. It''s then the folks at the factory who must determine how to build the boat for that price. (This is why they are so popular in Britain, where Brits are by necessity so price sensitive. Boating has many costs over here, all of them relatively high). I know of no better example of the definition of ''price boat'' than that. As PBO concluded, the guy at the factory who''s job it is to go around with a caulking gun, filling all the gaps in the joinerwork, has excellent job security.

Sorry this is worded so strongly...but golly, these were the absolute Schlock of the show. I was even admiring the Legend boats (aka: Hunters in the U.S.), by comparison.

Jack


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## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

We looked at a Halberg Rassy 38, and two Bavarias (42 and 38) at the Annapolis Boat Show. All were rated "Blue Water" boats.

According to the Bavaria rep., proper handholds would be installed when the buyer requested them, and at no additional charge. He also mentioned that a Lloyd''s of London inspector at the plant at all times. He''s there to ensure the boats are made to their standards for open ocean sailing.

Bavaria may not be up to the high standards of fit and finish found on a Halberg Rassy, but they can handle the open seas nearly as well, and still leave lots of cash in your pockets to use as you like. ;^)

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I spent a fair amount of time aboard the Bavaria at the recent Annapolis Boat Show. I don''t care what the salesman said, looking at the glass work and narrow tabbing done with mat, I would never call Bavarias an offshore boat. Also at least the mid range Bavarias have a hull form that would be a pretty poor choice for offshore work as well. 

The salesman that I spoke to who assured me that Bavarias were constructed much better than they used to be (his words) could not answer basic questions such as what resins were being used in the hull, were the decks or hulls vacuum bagged, are there backing plates on major fittings, is the boat bonded, or why he thought they were better than they used to be.

At least from what I could see of these boats, you were going to try to get off cheaply you would be better off buying a Hunter, Catalina, or Beneteau. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

According to the rep I spoke with, the hulls are vacuum bagged. Apparently, the Lloyd''s of London inspector seems to think Bavarias are worthy of their rating for open seas. Perhaps you should have asked the sales rep how they were able to get that rating or perhaps you should contact Lloyd''s of London to tell them their inspector at the Bavaria plant is not doing a good job.

BTW, Practical Sailor gave a very good write-up and recommendation for the Bavaria Ocean 38. I guess they don''t know anything about boats either.

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

928Frenzy,

I will not make any claim on how good a bavaria sailboat sails. I have never sailed one, I have spent a little time on them at boat shows and I''ll give my general impression.

They look like decently built boats, thier fit and finish looked as good or better than any of the Bene''s Cat''s or Hunters (like I would expect from any german manufactured product). Though from a personal standpoint, their setup, layout and finish was very cold, bland and utilitarian. (like I would expect from any german manufactured product) Nothing wrong with that, but it left me feeling cold, uninspired and not really feeling comfortable down below. When I sit on a boat, it should make me smile. I was also turned off by a few other things, like the faux plastic teak floors & the saildrive and somewhat underpowered (at least by todays standards) 19 HP or the optional 29HP engine on the 36 http://www.bavaria-yachts.com/34/indexnew36.htm Now before you respond I know that has no bearing on its sailing or offshore capabilities, but all the same.....

Now as for your Bavaria''s rep Claim that the Hulls are vacuum bagged either he''s blowing "hot-air" and suckering another unsuspecting soul or their website is totally wrong or not updated, because it specifically says that the hulls are "Hand laid fiberglass to the waterline" http://www.bavaria-yachts.com/about.htm.
Though I will give them kudo''s for using kevlar reinforcement in the bow sections.

And the Llyods rating is all well and good, and it does guarantee a level quality in the materials and build process''s. But one shouldn''t assume that the Lloyd''s Register Quality Assurance (LRQA), is anything more than that. ISO 9000 is not a quality control standard, but a process control. It does not assume a boats the best absolutely designed for sea conditions, but rather that certain features and build quality and process''s are up to par. http://www.boats.com/content/default_detail.jsp?contentid=1990.

Not saying the Bavaria is such a boat - just clarifying to some out there that might not understand some of the yacht "rating" systems


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi all:
When I started this string, I never thought I would get so many answers and so clarifying.
Now that I have taken Bavaria of my list, I will start another one... what about Jeanneau vs. Hallberg - Rassy (considering that H R will always be the best)
Thanks
Jorge


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## Silmaril (Feb 22, 2003)

In an entirely different direction, you have not mentioned X-Yachts. While geared more toward performance than cruising, their design, build quality, construction techniques, and attention to detail seem superior to the Cats, Bens, Hunts, Bavs, and Jens. They do raise the price bar, but a Hallberg is not exactly cheap either.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Silmaril, you are right in your comments, I can''t compare to many boats at the same time, the idea is that after a few months of this type of comparison Y will have a fair knowledge of few different boats. What I''m more interesting is performance in blue waters and safety in Open Ocean, plus comfort under-deck


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

jzlatar,

I would think that (in general) the Jenneaus are in the same class as the Catalina, Hunter, Benne''s Bavaria''s etc. With the differences of being better suited for blue water really pertaining to the specific boat in question.

I have heard a few good things about the 43 Sunfast (sp?). But I simply drool over the Jenneau 43 deck salon. While its probably more aimed at the coastal cruiser market, I just love the way''s it''s layed out and I would be a very happy person cruising and living aboard this boat. Not saying this is what you''d want in an ocean boat, but remember being a Deck Salon boat does not preclude them from being ocean going, just look at Oysters, etc.


The bottom line is you can pay big $$ and get the best and newest H-R, or you can get one of the middle tiered boats that are not bad and probably do the sort of cruising you need and want to do with the certain amount of comfort and safety you are looking for. All you need to do is sail in to some god-foresaken hole on some remote islands and take a look at some of boats that should be called rafts. If they have made it across open oceans you should too. Just stick to know seasonal weather windows and you''ll be fine.

You didn''t qualify what type of boat you''d want to do this is in. e.g. a full keeled boat or a fin, a sturdy stout rigging with low Sa/D or high tech speedster , luxurious accomodations with all the benefits of life on land, or are you looking at doing this simple, with a stark basic interior and amenities. 

I suggest you get and read Nigel Calder''s Cruising Handbook: A Compendium for Coastal and Offshore Sailors. It will help you narrow down some of these things


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## doubleplay (Nov 9, 2001)

Jzlatar,
I guess your knowledge about boats is pretty limited because you are trying to compare apples to oranges with every question you asked.
If you want to compare Hallberg-Rassy to anything try Najad,Sweden Yachts,Oyster or Moody etc...
There is no way to compare boats like Hallberg Rassy to boats like Jeanneau,Beneteau,Catalina,etc..which has a different built quality and purpose for usage.
I would suggest you try to improve your hands on and theoratical knowledge before making a decision.(read and sail).
Respectfully,
Al


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Being a former Catalina and a current Jeanneau owner I have to agree with doubleplay. In really general terms you are comparing a Rolls Royce to a Chevy. What''s the point? Among the other class of boats you mention there are quality and performance difference but that wasn''t your question.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

RE: the Lloyds inspector. All he certifies is that the boat is built to the spec that the factory drawings call for. He does not rate the yacht only that the construction method meets the spec that Bavaria has told Lloyds it will build to.
I''d actually have a hard time believing they go to that length. This is done mainly for custom yachts. The CE rating ocean does not really guarantee you a perfectly safe yacht. HR exceeds these standards


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## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

The "Ocean" rating does certify the boat as one designed to be able to handle "Blue water". As you likely know, folks have and continue to cross oceans on boats not rated as "Ocean" boats.

The question then comes down to, "What kind of vessel does one need to safely cross an ocean?" The answer to that question depends on the weather, the crew, and the sturdiness of the vessel, and pretty much in that order.

Assuming one doesn''t try to sail across an ocean during bad weather, and the crew is/are competent, the vessel can be almost anything. Obviously, a boat rated "ocean" will likely sail and feel better in a seaway than one that is not rated as such. Keeping the seach to "Ocean" rated boats, it then comes down to the boat''s: size, standard equipment, comfort, style, fit and finish, manufacturer support, etc.

As you should know by now, there is no such thing as "The perfect sail boat". They are all compromises. In the final analysis, only we (Capt. and Admiral) know if the equivalent of a Rolls Royce or a Chevy station wagon or something in-between will be the "best" compromise for "Ocean" cruising. ;^)

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Tsenator
.
Right now we are in the process of selecting, but first we''ll need to research boat types which suit our budget and cruising plans. Our plans are not only for coastal cruising where we can consider a wider range of boats but we have to consider those suited for long-distance ocean passages. If we make a poor choice we may be plagued with structural problems, leaks, slow uncomfortable passages, endless repairs and a low resale price. because we are working within a fixed budget, possibilities are to spend less on the initial purchase by either purchasing a well-built used boat or a smaller new boat. The question is how small so it don''t become later to small. and on the other hand, we don’t want to end up with a larger boat where we may have to depend on finding pick-up crew in different ports in order to safely manage the boat on ocean passages and keep the insurance valid. We must be prepared to single hand our boat. Seasickness or illness may incapacitate me or my partner, leaving one person to handle everything we''ll sure appreciate a design that offers good sailing performance and ease of handling the more miles we sail. One thing that we don’t want to forget is that speed is very important criteria in choosing an ocean cruising boat. The shorter our passages, the less exposure we have to heavy weather conditions. A boat with good sailing performance requires less motoring and fuel, is faster, more responsive and fun to sail in the light air conditions so common worldwide.
I’ve being told to avoid some aspects like: Long bowsprits, Low freeboard, Excessive freeboard
Regarding your question on comfort, this is just as important as each of the above points, because a boat may have the best sailing characteristics in the world, but if my partner views it as a deep, dark, damp, unattractive place to live, I''ll either be single handing or giving up our cruising dreams. so comfort at anchor is also very important.
Storage, fuel, water capacity and Weight Carrying Capacity, also I have to keep in mind, and regarding the type of keels, honestly, I need a lot of advise, I’m not very familiar with the performance of each one. I accept opinions.
I''ve in mind the Jeanneau 43 also, will it fit my requirements?
Regads
Jorge


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I like to compare cars to animals to explain their qualities, and I like your analogy of comparing boats to cars.

My first car was like a quarter horse, with a good heart but weak lungs and bad legs. (It was a ''84 Dodge Charger with a good, torguey little engine, but perpetual carburation problems and a poor suspension.)

My second car was a small, gutsy, sure-footed donkey that and didn''t require a special diet and would take me anywhere. (It was a Subaru Justy with 4-wheel drive, 5-speed transmission, A/C with great gas milage and it floated safely in flood waters after hurricane Andrew and propelled itself at 3 to 5 miles per hour.)

My current car is a plowhorse, if not a Clydesdale, strong, capable of carrying lots of cargo, pulling a heavy load, and going at a good speed, if allowed to get its head. (I drive a Grand Marquis with a big engine, a huge trunk and it pulls my sailboat.)

So, if boats are like cars, what boat would a Mercury Grand Marquis be?

Seriously,
Charles


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

928frenzy,

I basically agree with you , I have in the past done quite a lot of research around this for my own knowledge and I learned quite a few things that "opened my eyes". I believe Sailmc has it right also. Whether you know it more and more middle tiered boats are getting ratings like that. But I generally think the build quality of boats are *much* better than what has been out there in the past.

BTW my own boat is certified in compliance with CE category "A".(A. OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 meters and above, and vessels largely self-sufficient.)
http://www.catalinayachts.com/certif.cfm

Does that mean its the *best* design for handling "blue water"....hmmm? Does it mean that the components and build quality is there....Yes. I bet there are some boats out there not certified (Westsnails) where I know you''d feel more comfortable in some conditions out in the middle of nowhere.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I am also in the market for a boat and have been for a year. It seems that 'true' blue water boats cost more. That's a fundamental bottom line. Step aboard one, like a Hallberg Rassy or a Malo or a Taswell, and there it is before your eyes - quality. With few exceptions, quality disappeared out the door when we all became obsessed with price and so, like cars, most boats are built to a price. The issue then becomes what size 'quality' blue water boat can you fit into your budget? There aren't many, that's the problem.

Nick/salochin1720


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Dog...where are you? Your late on this one


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Salonchin-

Do you think he really cares anymore? * After all, it has been more than FIVE YEARS since he posted about this. * Chances are pretty good that if he hasn't bought a boat by now, he's either dead or found out he gets excruciatingly seasick. Please do check the dates on threads before replying to one that has been dead for any significant length of time. Also, would highly recommend you read the POST in my signature.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Salonchin

You could also read the link to the post in my signature


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## pegasus1457 (Apr 14, 2002)

*build quality is poor ..*

My experience with Bavaria yachts comes from several European charters in newish to brand new Bavarias. When they were good they were OK but on one occasion on a one-year-old Bavaria 42 the 2 ladies sleeping in the V berth had to sleep with a pot between them to catch the water streaming in from the leaking hatch.

We gave the charter operator hell for that but he claimed the boat arrived from the factory in that condition. Bad quality hatches from a subcontractor, he claimed.

I was not impressed.

If you can afford the HR go for it. Previous owners who can afford a new HR probably take care of it. That is not a trivial consideration.


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