# Ketch vs. Cutter



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I would like to hear some discussion about the advantages or disadvantages of a ketch rig on a modern cruising boat.
I''m thinking in terms of a 42 to 44'' boat handled by a couple. Traditionaly a ketch was thought to offer more options of sail combination and smaller easier to handle sails. Now with the perfection of furling sails, lazy jacks, dutchmans and full batten mains, etc., the picture is not as clear. My wife and I have owned a number of sloops up tp 45''and now we are looking for something new and thought of trying a ketch. I would like to hear some pros and cons.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

The disavantages of a mizzen seem to be such that I''m not too sure that there are any "modern" ketches, unless one wants to consider boats made before the mid-''70s as modern.

That ketches are history gives a clear picture that sloops with furling sails have all the pluses.

Good luck.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks for the reply salingfool

I guess my definition of "modern boats" is a little broader than yours. I''m considering boats such as Brewer 44, Bristol 41.1 and 45, Contest 40. All these boats are what I would call modern with modified fin keels seperated skeg and rudder and reasonable performance. 

I was hoping to find ketch owners or former ketch owners who might comment on the advanteges or disadvantages. We all know a ketch can''t point like a sloop or cutter, but when we cruise we avoid going to windward if possible.


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## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

If as you say, you don''t plan to sail to windward much, then it seems to me that a ketch would be only a bit more work to sail than a cutter with a furling jib and staysail, but would provide more sail combinations than either a cutter or a sloop.

Also, on a ketch it might be easier to handle its relatively smaller sails, especially when compared to a sloop or cutter with much larger sails which may cause the furlers to malfunction.

In addition, a mizen-mast provides good mountings for radar or other electronic devices. It also serves well for an anchoring sail or when manuvering at very low speed or in tight quarters.

Lastly, (IMO) ketches seem to have a nicer visual appeal than either cutters or sloops.

BTW, rent the movie "Captain Ron" if you haven''t already seen it. Now that''s a pretty ketch.

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


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## ddebruin (Nov 13, 2001)

I sailed a ketch (32'' Dickerson) for 10 years now have a sloop with roller furling. Can''t see any advantages to the ketch. Just more sheets, halyards, sails to repair and handle. With the more modern sail handling hardware, i.e. roller furling etc. there does not seem to be the need for the smaller sails. I sail short handed or single handed most of the time. On the ketch, rigging the mizzen and jib would balance and sail nicely in a breeze, the sail handling on my sloop allows easier changes of sail area so I am able to start with more sail, and reduce when nec. or vice versa more easily than I ever could with the ketch. Of course my sloop is 20 years newer than the ketch and sails better on almost every point of sail anyway. My 2cents.

Dan


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## MichaelGOP (Nov 8, 2004)

We sail an Allied Mistress 39'' Ketch and have become big fans of the rig. In heavy weather she sails great under mizzen and foresail. The mizzen is easily handled. We''ve experimented sailing with and without the mizzen and find we pretty much always do better mizzen up then down. When the wind pipes up we prefer to reef or stow the main and "give up the mizzen last." 

We point better than we expected when we bought our Allied as well. We once (don''t ask) ran out of fuel and beat through the breakwaters into Montauk harbor. If you know the harbor, you know how much we''ve come to appreciate what our Allied Ketch can do!

For downwind and light air we fly an asymetrical and hope to add a mizzen staysail.

Much of what rig is available seems to do with fashion. Sloops were in, then ketches, then sloops again, now cutters. All have advantages and disadvantages. At least the mizzen self tacks. On a cutter you have to get the fore around the staysail. Not hard to do with a yankee jib, but all those cutters have huge genoas trying to tack around the inner stay.

The mizzen also is the great place to hang flags, wind generators and radar.

The ketch rig has much to recommend it. We often say, "nobody beats the miz."


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Thanks for the positive support of ketch rigs Michael. We just bought a ketch-rigged boat, late in the season and anxiously await next season to fully enjoy her. 

During our bi-season marina dock party, one of our dock mates shared an interesting play on words: 

"Do you know why they call the sail a mizzen? . . .''cause it keeps mizzen your head".

Steve


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

Steve, let me just add a word of encouragement to Michael''s comments re: ketches...altho'' talking about the rig as tho'' it is separate from the boat can be a bit misleading. One of the reasons Michael praises his Allied''s rig is because the boat was designed for its rig and the rig was set up functionally. Ketch & cutter rigs can both be somewhat disfunctionally arranged and/or unsuitable for a given boat.

We''ve been sailing a Pearson 424 ketch for some years now. Its wide sheeting angle, beamy (also roomy) hull, and lesser draft already give it limited performance to windward, with the ketch rig reducing windward performance just that much more. And of course there is more rigging with which to contend; one especially notices this if the ketch rig is placed on an aft cockpit boat.

But I think people overlook several benefits that can be very meaningful. We sailed N to S, the back N and, finally, E to W thru the Caribbean, and did it all relatively easily as a couple. (We also got 1,000 NM to windward against the Trades, as there''s more to that task than simply sailing a slippery, windward witch of some kind). Ketches often have lower profile sail plans, which in conjunction with their smaller sails makes sail handling easier for a short-hand or older crew like us. Second, adding light air sails can substantially increase performance. E.g. Michael will love a mizzen staysail when he gets one (which BTW is relatively cheap, light, small and easy to handle). It''s our ''supercharger'' in lighter winds and, when used in conjunction with an asym off the wind, can totally replace the heavier weight working sails while still adding perhaps 30% to the working sail area. These two benefits in turn led us to believe that crossing an ocean wasn''t as much of a physical challenge (and therefore, a safety issue) as we''d originally believed, and so it''s fair to say our rig was not only compatible with but invited us to extend our cruising plans. And as we visited Scandinavia and dealt with the heavier winds in the North Sea and Baltic, it once again made this easier than it might otherwise have been.

The comment about a mizzen being a suitable place to mount other systems is true but may not mean much to boats sailed locally. To illustrate this, we use our mizzen, topped up a bit, as our outboard derrick when lifting the engine onto or off the dink. It also holds our radar, radar reflector, TV antenna and is the mount for our wind generator, at the mizzen masthead. All of these are better located here IMO than where they otherwise would end up living on a single-masted boat.

Good luck on playing with your rig this coming season. Experiment with it and you''ll end up discovering its advantages. Most of the criticisms of the rig you''ll hear from others are somewhat academic, as most sailors have little or no experience with the ketch rig. Let the boat teach you what you do & don''t like about it.

Jack


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## swhall (Aug 15, 2001)

We bought an Allied Mistress 39 last year. We think it is a great handling boat. The ketch rig has been good for us, and we sailed from Key West to Panama City with no engine. Even in light winds we were able to still make 3kts. 

I havent thought about the mizzen staysail. Are they expensive to add?

Steve
S/V Endless Summer
1972 Allied Mistress #8


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## jack_patricia (May 20, 2001)

Steve, you''ll find a mizzen staysail will be the least expensive sail in your boat''s inventory, perhaps the easiest to rig and hoist/retrieve, and for your boat it''s likely to add more sail area than your mainsail.

I''d suggest you shop for mizzen staysails in the used sail lofts (Minnie''s, Bacon''s et al.) or, if soliciting bids for a new staysail from lofts, consider requesting a quote from an offshore loft (Lee''s, Rolly Tasker, etc.). Because the sail is relatively simple, there is less risk when purchasing it from an offshore loft as there are few potential problem areas. I purchased ours from Rolly Tasker and, for our 13M/42'' boat, it was $300 plus shipping.

Let me know if you want to step off this thread and talk a bit about setting up the staysail running rigging or how to spec the sail.

Jack
[email protected]


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## randyrhines (Jun 5, 2010)

Thanks Guys this was a realistic and fair, but helpful thread on the Ketch, We will take our first sail on our newly aquired Allied Princess 36 ketch from Goderich Ontario to Port Elgin this spring, we read all we can about the rig, this was really intresting to read , "A about a rig designed for the boat" We have been sailing a Catalina 27' for years, Our Ketch comes with a mizzen staysail, a roller furling and an Aspin as well. No bow sprit. thanks for info , sincerely Randy Hines


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## randyrhines (Jun 5, 2010)

Ha! LOL im replying to a 10 year old thread, call me another desparate sailor .........


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

randyrhines said:


> Ha! LOL im replying to a 10 year old thread, call me another desparate sailor .........


Aaaa - who cares? If it's a helpful thread, it's a helpful thread. No reason to start a new one if there's good stuff already there.


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## randyrhines (Jun 5, 2010)

I mean 8 years old , oh well good info, good commentary, from what ive read very accurate, personally i wouldnt even compare my sloop to a Ketch, they are so different, i always compared my sloop to other sloops, So i will do the same with the Princess 36' Ketch


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## randyrhines (Jun 5, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Aaaa - who cares? If it's a helpful thread, it's a helpful thread. No reason to start a new one if there's good stuff already there.


So true, These forums have been so helpful to me, and i appreciate the replies and comments, free flow of expirience, there are some strong opinions, but also fair and humble ones as well that bring back the good nugets of truth. It is easy for the greenhorns (18 years sailing) like myself to fit in, and the senior members, pick up and make you feel at home without being arrogant. I appreciate the sublte humor in the threads, but i am off thread now, LOL
My wife and I will cruise North channel, and Georgian bay in our Ketch, I cant wait to feel the difference of my wheel steered 36' ketch after my tiller steered 27' sloop.
Thanks Smackdad!


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## WanderingStar (Nov 12, 2008)

I went from a yawl with tiller to a ketch with a wheel. Also a straighter keel. Not as fun or quick, but very steady on her course, which makes for easy singlehanding.


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## randyrhines (Jun 5, 2010)

*Thanks*

what kind of Ketch


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

randyrhines said:


> My wife and I will cruise North channel, and Georgian bay in our Ketch, I cant wait to feel the difference of my wheel steered 36' ketch after my tiller steered 27' sloop.


Hi Randy, we used to sail the North Channel in our Grampian 34 ketch. Love the boat, love the rig, and love the cruising area down there. We now sail Lake Superior in our Rafiki 37 cutter. Still have three sails, just different configuration. Funny though, we went the other way; going from a wheel on the ketch to a tiller on our cutter. Both are great.

If you get a chance, poke your bow up through the St. Mary's River to Superior. The best cruising ground bar none up here. Just don't go swimming .


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## WanderingStar (Nov 12, 2008)

randyrhines said:


> what kind of Ketch


Mine is one-off. Designed by WD Knott, modified by Carl Brorein, built by Nelson Whitesell. She 39'6" on deck, 48' over spars, 12' beam, 5'6" draft, 16 tons (!), about 840 sqft sail area. There are pictures of her here somewhere.


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## techwriter john (Jul 10, 2016)

If you go into Superior, just be aware that you are sailing into one of the most dangerous waters in the world. Superior is different from any other body of water, as those who have sailed her can attest. Even those who regularly sail in her liquid have deep respect for how fast she can turn on you.

One sad example was the experience of a 3/4-time resident there who not only sailed her but designed sail-craft especially suited to her quirks. Rufus Conable Jefferson of Deephaven MN had lived through S-S-F seasons on Madeline Island for several decades, operating a custom boat-works at his home. He went out one day in fine weather to proof the hull of the new 15-foot 'Far Shore Explorer' he just had finished. Weather changed abruptly and without warning, as it is prone to do on Superior. No one knows what happened, but boat and captain both disappeared and no wreckage or body ever was found.

As for swimming, why not? Just don't do so in mid-water - only from protected shallow beaches in Summer. I have seen the water temps on the South inshore at Madeline quite often be up over 70° F out as far as 300 ft from shore and 25 ft depth. I also have bathed in its waters at temps as low as 56° F. However, the average temp in mid-lake is about 40° F, way cold for casual swimming without special gear.

If you do go, enjoy, but do be cautious.

Warm regards -

Techwriter John


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