# Unmanageable Mainsheet



## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

We've encountered a bit of a problem with our new-to-us Pearson P30. When close hauled or on a close reach in any kind of air at all, we find the mainsheet basically unmanageable. Sometimes we can't even get the mainsheet out of the cam cleat and, even if we do, even _I_ am not strong enough to trim the main in sometimes. (It's not like I'm about to win any strongman competitions, but I'm no 90 lb. weakling, either.) We find ourselves sometimes having to pinch up enough to depower the main. As you can imagine: This doesn't do good things for ones speed.

The thing that gets us is the PO used to race our boat. We're wondering how in Neptune's name they managed that mainsheet? We're wondering if we're doing something wrong, but cannot imagine what.

We're wondering if we need to upgrade something? Here's what things currently look like:



















The P30 normally has the traveller in the back. The PO moved it up and upgraded it to that Harken traveller you see in the 1st and 3rd pictures. _That_ works like a charm .

That cam cleat has pretty aggressive teeth. Once that thing clamps on, under load, it takes two strong men and a boy to get it loose.

What do y'all think?

TIA,
Jim


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I think you need a bigger fiddle block arrangment and a thicker sheet.

Also to release the rope from the cleat, ypou don't pull on it, you give it a 90º whip, to relase.

I can search a good fiddle for you if you are interested and give me a few minutes.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

A thick sheet helps, as does more mechanical advantage. I have triple blocks top and bottom and no worries.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Here we go...

For the boom..










For the traveler. But on this one you turn the cleat the other way around so it releases when you yank the sheet upwards, not downwards, because if you yank downwards, you keep hitting the legs of those seating near it.










Put a spring belloow the fiddle on the traveller to keep it VIAGRA!!!

By the way...the blocks you have look pretty ****ty and weak, good for a smaller boat.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

And you can, if you really want it to be butter smooth get this for the boom










This for the traveller...again inverting the cleat..










and VIAGRA for the block


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Your blocks are indeed small - wonder if those were original ??? The PO may well have kept the nice Harken blocks for his next boat and replaced them with something he had lying around...and then again, maybe not

Anyway....

He may well have been using the winch to help him, as well as the boom vang. You may find that if you use the vang in concert with the mainsheet that things get a little easier...

I would buy bigger blocks - what you have looks a litte undersized.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Then if you really want to impress your lady...

Check this one out...

For the Boom: This

For the traveller,this..

Just looking at them I get an orgasm......

By the way mine are of the same series, Lewmar R1

For the traveller Lewmar is the best, for other applications Harken is the best...get the Lewmar...its very good, and then we would have something in common..but if you get the racing Harken, we will also have something in common

Look how sexy the Lewmars are..


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I forgot to tell you, the two top ones are Harken, and their references are the numbers you see if you save the photos, the Lewmars have the references if you click the links.

All of them have ratchet features, that allow you to ratchet the main block sheave, so you only cleat when needed...COOOOOOL


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Wow, quick feedback. Thanks, guys! 

Alex,

Could you dig up the Harken (I assume that's what they are) part numbers for those 1st two solutions you showed? Or at least the sizes you're recommending (from which I could probably find part numbers myself)? Thanks! (Yeah, I'd really like to impress my lady, but I can't quite justify $600 for the Lewmar solution .)

Edit: Okay. Got it on the part numbers. Thanks!

Sailormann,

We were wondering the same thing. This man was not shy of spending good money for good equipment. Note the Harken traveller. He also upgraded the two jib sheet winches from the original, rather small Lewmars to Harken #40's. He didn't scrimp on anything, basically. So... I dunno. I'm _guessing_ what's on there now are the originals.

Valiente,

A thicker sheet? Recommendation? (Obviously I'd need bigger sheaves to accomodate a thicker sheet.)

Thanks, guys, for your help.

Jim


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

WRONG!!!!!!!!

Jim...

The Lewmar 60mm fiddle with cleat is around $165, and the fiddle for the boom, also 60mm is around $70.

The Harken fiddle is also around those prices...

Give Sailnet store a call you WILL be surprized the price is around $210 for everything you need. If you go 60mm

For your boat you don't need the 80mm the 60 mm will do fine.

And if you want to go 80mm (75 mm for Harken) its $320 all you need.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> I forgot to tell you, the two top ones are Harken, and their references are the numbers you see if you save the photos, the Lewmars have the references if you click the links.


The image names didn't work for the 2nd set (049 and 052, respectively), but did work for the 1st solution and the spring.



Giulietta said:


> All of them have ratchet features, that allow you to ratchet the main block sheave, so you only cleat when needed...COOOOOOL


*Drool* 

Thanks,
Jim


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sent you a pm


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> sent you a pm


Got it and replied already. Thanks, Alex.

Question about the 60mm Lewmar fiddle blocks as opposed to the "butter smooth" Harken recommendation (your 2nd recommendation - the one with triple sheaves): The Lewmar will tame the mainsheet as well or better?

What size mainsheet line should I put on these?

Thanks,
Jim


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Actually it amazes me how many boats seem to have undersized blocks etc for things such as the main sheet. 

We had a similar problem to your's (slightly bigger boat , 34') and what we have done is go to a triple setup (just like Alex has suggested) for the main sheet then we are using the old two block system main sheet setup to replace our old single block vang setup. 

A relatively inexpensive fix, leaving us with equipment that Ms Wombat will find much much easier to use and also easier for me if I'm single handing. Smiles all round. (I hope anyway, cos we don't get her back from the yard until next week with her bright shiny new rigging, yeehah.)


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

SEMIJim said:


> Got it and replied already. Thanks, Alex.
> 
> Question about the 60mm Lewmar fiddle blocks as opposed to the "butter smooth" Harken recommendation (your 2nd recommendation - the one with triple sheaves): The Lewmar will tame the mainsheet as well or better?
> 
> ...


Jim, I think you will get less effort from the triple block arragment, as the purchasse is higher 6:1 with the triple and 4:1 with the fiddle.

However, with the triple you will need to pull more sheet to get the same movement out of the boom, whereas with the fiddle the purchase is lower, but you will get more movement of the boom with less sheet.

I prefer the fastest method, with the fiddle, but its only a question of preference. So what I did, to compensate for the increased effort I suggested 80mm fiddle instead of the 60mm. But the 60mm will be fine and enough.

The reference for the Harken triple with ratchet and cleat and cam is: Harken 1556
The simple triple block on the boom is Harken 1546. Please note these are normal blocks, not carbo or Black Magic.

You will do with 8 or 10mm sheet fine, whatever that is in inches...


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> I prefer the fastest method, with the fiddle, but its only a question of preference. So what I did, to compensate for the increased effort I suggested 80mm fiddle instead of the 60mm.


Understood. I imagine that "fastest" becomes very important for smooth gybes? I'm currently thinking the 80mm Lewmar may be the ideal compromise.



Giulietta said:


> You will do with 8 or 10mm sheet fine, whatever that is in inches...


Very well. Thanks.

Jim


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

tdw said:


> ... we are using the old two block system main sheet setup to replace our old single block vang setup.


That I need not worry about, as our vang is already a double-block system .

Jim


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Garhauer also makes a nice setup for what you're doing, and probably at prices lower than the Harken or Lewmar gear. Garhauer is stock on several boat lines, including Catalina now. 

BTW, depending on how high the traveller is mounted, inverting the cam cleats may or may not be useful. For Giu's boat, where the traveller is mounted on the cockpit sole, it makes a lot of sense to invert it, since you'd have to drop to your knees to cleat it otherwise. On your boat, if the traveller is mounted on the bridgedeck or cabintop, it may make more sense to leave the cam cleats upright.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

First of all, bigger sheets will make the problem worse as they increase friction and grip in the cleat and are unnecessary. As folks have suggested going to ball bearing blocks will help. You might want to go to a 5:1 set up would help as well. (6:1 is too much purchase for the P-30). Using a hexratchet on the last turn also gives you a chance to play the sheet.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

_Finally a thread I can learn something from._
_Good post and good responses. Thanks fellow Sailnetters._


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Garhauer also makes a nice setup for what you're doing, and probably at prices lower than the Harken or Lewmar gear. Garhauer is stock on several boat lines, including Catalina now.


Very well. I'll look at Garhauer, too.



sailingdog said:


> BTW, depending on how high the traveller is mounted, inverting the cam cleats may or may not be useful.


Our traveller is mounted across the cockpit seats, in front of the companionway. I believe the 1st picture shows that.

We can easily try the cleat both ways. I'm kind of thinking it would be better flipped.

Thanks for your comments, SD.

Jim


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Jeff_H said:


> First of all, bigger sheets will make the problem worse as they increase friction and grip in the cleat and are unnecessary.


But sheets that are under-sized are no good, either, right? I believe that's what's being suggested, here: That both the fiddle blocks and the sheet are undersized for our rig.



Jeff_H said:


> As folks have suggested going to ball bearing blocks will help. You might want to go to a 5:1 set up would help as well. (6:1 is too much purchase for the P-30). Using a hexratchet on the last turn also gives you a chance to play the sheet.


I'll keep these in mind as I continue my research. Thanks, Jeff.

Jim


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## rhaley (Jun 18, 2007)

I'll second what SD said, Garhauer makes great equipment at an excellent price. However, they didn't make a ratchet block when I bought parts for my mainsheet.

It's been my experience that as long as your sheets are in good shape and made of modern fibers, the size is dictated by what is comfortable to your hand when you're are working the line.


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## Gary M (May 9, 2006)

I have a 30 foot race boat with a bigger main than a Pearson and find that a 3/8" (10mm) sheet is about right. You could get away witha 5/16" but it would be a little small in the hands. You can go to the Harken site and look in their Technical section and it shows different mainsheet configurations. 

When the previous owner moved the traveller to the mid boom position that added a lot more loading on the main sheet so that is likely why the original no bearing blocks are a very poor idea now.

Anyone of the 3 manufactures already mentioned will work fine. Garhauser tends to be less expensive and is really nice stuff.

I just got a set of quad deck oragnizers and am putting them on today. They are top quality and very pretty. 

I also found out that if you remove the through bolt the sheeves will slide out and you will have 60 little ball bearings all over the floor of your van. 

Gary


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Getting rid of the high friction blocks will make a big difference, and as Jeff says going to 6:1 is overkill on a 30 footer.

But you could add a small 3 or 4 part tackle where the bitter end of the sheet attaches, and use that as a fine tune - you'd only get about 8-10 inches more travel, but at 12 or 16:1, there should be no problems getting the last few inches of trim and you won't have miles of sheet on the cockpit floor.

I've got this on our large-mainsail 34 footer, and though it's marginal for our boat it does work, much better than the undersized 4 part that the boat came with.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Gary M said:


> I also found out that if you remove the through bolt the sheeves will slide out and you will have 60 little ball bearings all over the floor of your van.
> 
> Gary


At least they're someplace you can get to them...rather than say, in your bilge or on the sea floor.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> For Giu's boat, where the traveller is mounted on the cockpit sole, it makes a lot of sense to invert it, since you'd have to drop to your knees to cleat it otherwise.


SD I don't have a cleat or a similar system on my boat. I just posted that photo so he could see Lewmar R1 as an example.

However, on a previous boat, I had the traveller at the entrance of the companion way, and when de-cleating, I had to yank the sheet downwards. Sometimes, people sitting near would get their legs hit by the sheet.

So inverting the cleat was the solution, and just yank the sheet upwards out of the cleat's jaws.

Jim, Lewmar 80mm fidddle, becket, cam and cleat with 10mm sheets is the exact thing for you..


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

SemiJim, your current main sheet blocks are Schaefer so since the traveller is a new Harken, they are definitely carry overs. I have a similar Schaefer system on my 30 foot Cal's main (but with 2 spaced single blocks on the boom) and have no problem sheeting in in strong winds or getting the sheet out of the camcleat. My traveller is in a similar location to yours and my sheets are 3/8 inch. My boat does however have a smaller main than the P30 and sheeting is end-boom, not mid-boom. If yours is mid-boom, that would increase the loads. I would go with the best quality low-friction blocks you can afford.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> So inverting the cleat was the solution, and just yank the sheet upwards out of the cleat's jaws.


I would think it would be easier to get the sheet out of the cleat, pulling up, rather than down.



Giulietta said:


> Jim, Lewmar 80mm fidddle, becket, cam and cleat with 10mm sheets is the exact thing for you..


I'd _like_ to go with the 80mm, but that system is more than twice as expensive as the 60mm system. I think I'm going to have to try the 60mm system and hope that's enough. That and new 3/8" line.

Looks like I'm going to have to order it, whatever I go with. None of the local stores have either the 60mm or 80mm stuff in stock, anyway.

Darn, I was rather looking forward to doing this today. Oh well...

Jim


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Hey Jim, as ice will be setting in in Michigan in a week or two ....  why not wait until offer the winter, you'll get a better deal.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Freesail99 said:


> Hey Jim, as ice will be setting in in Michigan in a week or two ....  why not wait until offer the winter, you'll get a better deal.


Nah, there won't be ice around here for quite some time. We've got better than a month of fall sailing yet to go . The club's "mass haulout" isn't until the weekend of Nov. 3.

It occurred to me in the shower just a bit ago that this mainsheet problem is more than a speed or convenience issue. It's a safety issue, as well. If we ever have to quickly dump the main when we're headed upwind, and can't get it out of that cleat...

Gotta fix this.

Jim


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## 6string (Oct 19, 2006)

Jim

Harken is based in Pewaukee, WI. You could call them direct and order from them and have it delivered tomorrow so you can get this done this weekend. I am a bit partial to Harken being that I only live 10 miles away. I have used their equipment for over 30 years with rarely a problem.

Your cleat issue is a problem. The teeth can be part of the trouble. The other is what angle you can pull on the sheet to release it. It should easily pop out when you give a slight jerk on it. Take a look here on sailnets site at the harken ball bearing cam cleat. http://shop.sailnet.com/product_info.php/products_id/23675?search=1&keywords=harken cam cleats

Note how the cams are rounded to ease setting the sheet into the cleat. Also note that the teeth are not so deep. This cleat works great for what you are doing here. I have a dozen of these on my C scow which has a 200+ sq ft main sail. I have used them on E scows and A scows with much larger main sails as well.

Jeff


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

6string said:


> Jim
> 
> Harken is based in Pewaukee, WI. You could call them direct and order from them and have it delivered tomorrow so you can get this done this weekend.


And I'd pay for it in a major way, too . Harken would no doubt charge MSRP and the overnight shipping would be a big hit. I appreciate the lead, but I think I'm just going to relax and take this a bit more slowly.



6string said:


> I am a bit partial to Harken being that I only live 10 miles away. I have used their equipment for over 30 years with rarely a problem.


Can't say as a blame you . I think I'd be partial to Harken if they were only 10 miles from me, as well. Heck, if Harken was only 10 miles from me, this'd be done by now.



6string said:


> Your cleat issue is a problem. The teeth can be part of the trouble.


There is no doubt that the teeth on that cleat is part of the problem. They're far-and-away the most aggressive teeth I've seen on _any_ cam cleat so far. But remember: The cleat's not the only problem. Even when we _can_ get the sheet out of the cleat: We often can't do anything with it other than ease it--which is usually just the opposite of what we're wanting to do when beating into the wind.



6string said:


> The other is what angle you can pull on the sheet to release it. It should easily pop out when you give a slight jerk on it.


The angle is part of it, too, I'm sure. I think that even after we replace our blocks and line, I'll be wanting to pull up to release, pull down to cleat.

Trust me: The sheet will not come free, under high load, even if you give it a *strong* downward *yank*, much less a "slight jerk." One time the other day I sharply yanked that sheet as quickly and as hard as I could, _several times_, and it didn't budge. I actually briefly considered "stomping" on the sheet to free it, but thought "Okay, Jim, let's say you succeed. Then what?" As somebody mentioned in another thread not long ago: If you have to use excessive force, something ain't right, and applying more force is only likely to break something (further).

Jim


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I agree too - mainsheet is weak. You need more purchase on that sucker, especially on a boat that size. 

I've got an unmanageable Jib sheet... I'll post it in a new thread.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

I've got an aggressive cam cleat on my Lewmar mainsheet block as well - hard to yank down without FIRST pulling the sheet out while _simultaneously_ yanking the line down. That's the key - otherwise the teeth will continue to clinch tight.

It's unlikely wind loading on a 30 footer's main will make the rigging THAT difficult to handle.


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

TrueBlue said:


> I've got an aggressive cam cleat on my Lewmar mainsheet block as well - hard to yank down without FIRST pulling the sheet out while _simultaneously_ yanking the line down. That's the key - otherwise the teeth will continue to clinch tight.
> It's unlikely wind loading on a 30 footer's main will make the rigging THAT difficult to handle.


TB - Don't forget that we have End Boom Sheeting which gives us more leverage. Heck in light winds we could just reach forward and move the boom by hand  - try that in the middle or up where the vang attaches and you would get swept overboard.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

christyleigh said:


> TB - Don't forget that we have End Boom Sheeting which gives us more leverage. Heck in light winds we could just reach forward and move the boom by hand  - try that in the middle or up where the vang attaches and you would get swept overboard.


Me too..I have end boom sheet...I would not, however, dare to do it by hand...


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Jim: Could be the cordage that's partly to blame. Since we have preferred set points on our sheets, esp sailing close-hauled, the same section of rope gets cleated again and again, This can lead to fuzzing and 'flat spots' in braided (kernmantel) sheets. The softer the rope, the more aggressively your cleat will grip it. A nice stiff sheet is easier to get in and out of cams. Climbers are forever trimming the ends off their ropes; the last 6 feet get soft in time, and you can't untie your harness knot!

Swapping ends of your mainsheet might give you a fresh, stiff cord to work with.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

One problem could be the possibility that the sheet you are using is a tad to large for the blocks. 
Proper sizing & matching the line to the blocks is most important. Also using a line size that is comfortable to your hands. So you may want to go up a size or two in the blocks for that comfortable fit.


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## Wayne25 (Jul 26, 2006)

As I understand it, The PO moved the block location to mid boom. As you are witnessing there is exponensially more load the further you go toward the boom. Make sure the PO installed a connection point in the boom that can take all that added point load!! Or you may find your new blocks on the sole.

Wayne


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> It occurred to me in the shower just a bit ago that this mainsheet problem is more than a speed or convenience issue. It's a safety issue, as well.


Yup - mainsheets are a pretty important part of the boat. FWIW, I don't know anything about your rig but I have 1/2" line on a 30 foot with mid-boom sheeting and I definitely would not go smaller. The small stuf digs into your hands and if you do need to run it through the winch - it doesn't hold as well on a self-tailer (unless they are small as well..)


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> And you can, if you really want it to be butter smooth get this for the boom
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have the Garhauer version of these, and I am putting in a Garhauer two-metre traveller with double blocks this winter to replace the stupid Harken the previous owner thought was adequate.

EDIT: I like and use Harken stuff, but the about-to-be-former traveller has little cars with pull-up pegs that drive me nuts. I may recycle it for a pole track on the mast front, where I won't care so much.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Talking Up My Peeps...*

Look at Garhauer--they've always done me right. Almost everything I have had to replace (one piece at a time, I assure you) has come from there. Good prices, no complaints, prompt shipping.

If a company does me right I'll tell anyone who asks.
If a company does me wrong, I'll tell everyone who'll listen.

Nebo
MacVen 222


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Update.

Stopped by West Marine. Gotta be careful there, because sometimes they may sell you the Wrong Thing. Case in point: The Admiral and I stopped by one that's near our boat, and they were happy to sell us a Harken 2602, which is right for our boat, and a Harken 060, which, tho it's also a 57mm (fiddle) block, is undersized for our application. Harken recommends, for our needs, a 1566. The critical difference being an 1800 lb. safe working load, vs. 500, and a breaking strength of 5000 lbs, vs 2000.

And I forgot the "Viagra" for the fiddle block! 

Hopefully, one of the WM's close-by, or maybe Mike's, will have the fiddle block we need, so we can get this stuff installed this Sunday.

bobmcgov,

The cordage is actually in fine shape, and of the right size (3/8").

Boasun,

Re: Cordage too large. Could be. Could be the original cordage was 5/16", rather than the 3/8" that's on there now.

Wayne25,

Yes, others have mentioned the load issue. I'll make sure to double-check the attachment point on the boom. Thanks for the heads-up.

Sailormann,

Problem is, the blocks we're looking at won't all take 1/2" cordage. The double that's going on the boom, if we stick with the Harken we now have in-hand, takes a max of 7/16". The Harken fiddle block _they_ say we need will take up to 9/16". The Lewmar fiddle blocks Alex recommended I _think_ were max 3/8". We have what appears to be 3/8" on the boat, now, and it's in good condition. I think we'll give that a go with new blocks before looking to replace that.

Thanks, everbody, for your comments.

Jim


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

Just looking at it the blocks may be a bit small, but the previous owner used them seemingly to race.
Just looking at the design of such cleats - they are half tear drop. With full strain the length holds the rope. However as you pull it to you it should just hold on the widest few points as it opens up, then you can lift it.
There is a spring inside but I doubt that even if that is overtightened that would not be overcomeable.
If the rope is the right size ie just gripped at the widest part, then if I remember correctly the jaws can be adjusted so that when not undertension, only that part grips. From the photo it looks like most grip when under light if any tension, although it is difficult to tell. If so it is possible that under tension, only the flats hold so the curved wider bits cannot operate to open the jaws when pulled, and you would be pulling against the full holding strength.
However adjustment there only solves part of the problem since you can't pull it in anyway.
I wonder if you don't have the traveler set low ie to leeward on a beat. If you have it at roughly the angle of the boom then in effect the mainsheet simply pulls down on the boom. In any wind it will become impossible to move simply because you are trying to just pull the boom down against the sail.
Shift the traveller up and you are mainly pulling it in not down, and the load is less.
The traveller in effect governs in out while the mainsheet governs up down and in out depending on position.
When the traveller is low the mainsheet pull is down. This flattens the sail but also tightens the leech reducing twist. Twist allows the top of the sail to fall off and thus reduce heel. The wind at the top has a greater moment ie heeling effect. Depending on the wind some twist is desirable.
You might try getting the boom angle first with the traveller, then adjusting the shape for the wind with the mainsheet. Then in increasing wind you have the options of flattening via more mainsheet, or increasing twist by raising the traveller or easing the main. Some say you play the traveller not the mainsheet normally. However the two interact so it isn't quite that simple, however that may give you a start.


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

Oops. Just looking at the loads using the various calculators available, you could have gotten away with that system in 15 knots with it at the end of the boom, however as it is the load would be 630-730 lb depending on if it is 5-6 ft from the end about 75% more. With the traveller taking 20% that appears to give you 80-100 lb load on a 6 purchase system. With the existing load you would be unable to release the tension to free the sheet. 80-100 may still be more than desirable and you may want to think about shifting the traveller.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Chris,

Thanks for the comments and explanations. I'll have to make a note of your explanations about twist vs. traveller position vs. the mainsheet. Interesting stuff.

I come up with 497 to 559 lbs. in 15 kts on Harken's mainsheet system loading calculator. (Depending on how far the mainsheet attachment _really_ is from the end of the boom. I'm just guessing 3-4' atm.) That's 125 - 140 to the operator (99-112 lbs, assuming 20% to the traveller) on a 4:1 system. _I_ should be able to move that. Don't know about my wife, tho. There's only one way to find out: Buy the new blocks, put 'em in, and give 'em a go. I would really prefer to avoid a 6:1 system if I can. I think next I'd try a 5:1 system.

One thing for certain: I'll not be buying any new cordage until I find out. I'd hate like hell to buy new cordage for a 4:1 system, only to find I need a 5:1 or 6:1 system. I think there's enough 3/8" on the current one to go to _at_ least 5:1 - maybe 6:1. It turns out that the PO used to use the winches, just as Sailormann suggested. Of course: He always had a racing crew--with one guy just to handle main and tactics. The Admiral and I don't have that luxury.

That Harken calculator came up with 1990 to 2239 lbs load in 30 kts. But I'd be operating with at least one reef in at anything over about 15 kts. So I should be good with SWLs of 1800 and 1584, right?

Jim


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

I took the length along the clew as 11' 10" from a sailplan somewhere and the length back from the clew as 5-6' but just as a guess.
If the real wind is 15 I calculate thatthetotal sail area on a beat needs to be reduced by a third for each 5 knot increase in real wind so with 30 knots you reduce sail area by 75%. This is from the working sail area ie no number 1 genoa. This is because the force is related to the square of the wind speed and takes 15 knots as the optimum setting. 
I don't know how strong you are but pulling say a 100 lb is two bags of cement. I would find it difficult to do repeatedly, especially one handed.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

SEMIJim said:


> Chris,
> 
> I come up with 497 to 559 lbs. in 15 kts on Harken's mainsheet system loading calculator. (Depending on how far the mainsheet attachment _really_ is from the end of the boom. I'm just guessing 3-4' atm.) That's 125 - 140 to the operator (99-112 lbs, assuming 20% to the traveller) on a 4:1 system. _I_ should be able to move that. Don't know about my wife, tho. There's only one way to find out: Buy the new blocks, put 'em in, and give 'em a go. I would really prefer to avoid a 6:1 system if I can. I think next I'd try a 5:1 system.


You should be doing your calculation based on heavier wind conditions than 15kts IMHO. If the control line is 125 to 140# at 15kts; it is definitely not enough ratio. That's pulling over half of a mans body weight; all of a womans. Not going to happen for long; and if you get into some gusting wind (gusts to 30 kts) it won't be easy to spill to reduce your heel. Ideally you'd want an 8:1 to cut these loads in half; but 6:1 would probably be manageable.

It looks like you have a windward sheeting car. Chris is correct in stating that the traveler can be a more effective sail control than the mainsheet. Another thing to consider is sheeting the sail down flat with the mainsheet and then lowering the traveler to reduce heel. Doing this keeps the mainsail at minimum draft yet spilling power.

I would go with the 6:1; or possibly the 4:1 with 16:1 fine tune (shown on the Harken Tech Page http://www.harken.com/rigtips/mainsheet.php). With the 16:1 fine tune you must realize that the 16:1 control line does not have much travel so if you need to spill you are still dealing with controlling the 4:1 line.



> That Harken calculator came up with 1990 to 2239 lbs load in 30 kts. But I'd be operating with at least one reef in at anything over about 15 kts. So I should be good with SWLs of 1800 and 1584, right?


I would go to the higer range of the 30kt loads (SWL of 2500 or so). The reason is that loading is relatively exponential (double the wind; quadruple the load). So at a 40kt gust you would be seeing ~4000 lbs (don't quote me it could be higher). If you run through the compu-spec on the Pearson 30 mid-boom it kicks back P/N 1546 (Triple, SWL 3800#) and P/N 1556 (Triple with Hexaratchet, SWL 3800#); what Giu suggested earlier. Harken blocks tend to run on the small side for line diameter; we went with 5/16 line for 3/8 spec'd sheaves. For 9/16 sheaves I would use 1/2" line max.

On our boat we recently upgraded the traveler; it was originally 3:1 and impossible to move/control in winds over 15kts. So I replaced it with a harken high load traveler car and 4:1 purchase. That made it move easier but it was still lots of effort to adjust. I ended up doubling up the control ends to make it 8:1 (planned but wanted to see how it worked at 4:1); now we can adjust it in any wind condition. To minimize cordage I reeved it as a continuous loop with cam cleats placed in front of a small cockpit winch just in case we needed more leverage. We rarely use the mainsheet for upwind adjustments now.

HTH...


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

chris_gee said:


> I took the length along the clew as 11' 10" from a sailplan somewhere and the length back from the clew as 5-6' but just as a guess.


Pretty close. The sailplan calls for a 11.8' clew. I just called it 12'. The mainsheet attachment point is 4' from the end of the boom, which is about 13' long. (I did a rough measurement of the boom, w/o removing the sail cover, yesterday.)



chris_gee said:


> I don't know how strong you are but pulling say a 100 lb is two bags of cement. I would find it difficult to do repeatedly, especially one handed.


Everything's relative. We both find the traveler to be easy to move, wherever we want, on any tack and, so far, regardless of wind strength. So maybe we ought to be relying more on that and less on the mainsheet.

We'll give a new 4:1 system a try. If it's still too much, I'll look to increasing it to a 5:1 or 6:1 system. My goodness, it's only a 30' boat. Had one experienced sailor yesterday tell me there's nothing wrong with the blocks we have, just file down the teeth in the cleat a bit, and change the angle a bit if we can.

Jim


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I have a 28' boat, with a 6:1 mainsheet system, and we need every bit of it. How large is the main on your boat? Mine is about 250 sq. ft.



SEMIJim said:


> Pretty close. The sailplan calls for a 11.8' clew. I just called it 12'. The mainsheet attachment point is 4' from the end of the boom, which is about 13' long. (I did a rough measurement of the boom, w/o removing the sail cover, yesterday.)
> 
> Everything's relative. We both find the traveler to be easy to move, wherever we want, on any tack and, so far, regardless of wind strength. So maybe we ought to be relying more on that and less on the mainsheet.
> 
> ...


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

KeelHaulin said:


> You should be doing your calculation based on heavier wind conditions than 15kts IMHO.


Somewhere between 15 and 20 kts, we'll be putting a reef in.



KeelHaulin said:


> ... and if you get into some gusting wind (gusts to 30 kts) it won't be easy to spill to reduce your heel.


If we get 30 kt gusts w/o a reef in, we've done something very wrong, IMHO. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but it _shouldn't_ happen.



KeelHaulin said:


> Ideally you'd want an 8:1 to cut these loads in half; but 6:1 would probably be manageable.


8:1?!?! You do realize we're talking about a 30' boat here, right?



KeelHaulin said:


> It looks like you have a windward sheeting car.


Don't know what that means, sorry.



KeelHaulin said:


> Chris is correct in stating that the traveler can be a more effective sail control than the mainsheet. Another thing to consider is sheeting the sail down flat with the mainsheet and then lowering the traveler to reduce heel. Doing this keeps the mainsail at minimum draft yet spilling power.


It seems experimentation is in order. Chris suggests not sheeting the main in quite so tight and bringing the traveler up, you suggest sheeting the main down tight and lowering the traveler.



KeelHaulin said:


> I would go to the higer range of the 30kt loads (SWL of 2500 or so).


I am _never_ going to be trying to sail that boat in 30 kt winds with a full main. By 30 kts I should be on the 2nd reef point and have the #3 up, if anything.



KeelHaulin said:


> If you run through the compu-spec on the Pearson 30 mid-boom it kicks back...


But we don't really have mid-boom. We have 2/3 or 3/4 boom.



KeelHaulin said:


> what Giu suggested earlier.


But then he said, if he was doing it, he'd do either the 60mm or 80mm Lewmar system.

Had a chance to look at some Lewmar blocks over the weekend. I must say I'm impressed. They somehow seemed more... substantial (?), is the best way I can think to put it, than the approximate equivalent Harken parts. Also, it looks to me like Lewmar is getting higher safe working and peak loads than Harken in blocks with a smaller footprint.



KeelHaulin said:


> On our boat we recently upgraded the traveler; it was originally 3:1 and impossible to move/control in winds over 15kts.


We have absolutely no problem with the traveler on any tack, in any wind, so far.



KeelHaulin said:


> HTH...


I don't know if it did, or not. I certainly appreciate the comments, but you've got me second guessing decisions.

I've had Alex say the 60mm Lewmar fiddle blocks should be fine for our needs (SWL: 882 lbs, breaking: 1764 lbs.), but he'd go with the 80mm (SWL: 2204 lbs, breaking: 4409 lbs.) if it was his boat. Harken comes up with parts with much higher working and breaking loads than the 60mm Lewmars. You're coming up with much higher loads than the 80mm Lewmars. Meanwhile I've got local people telling me the 60mm Lewmar parts should be fine, and one sailer even telling me what we've already _got_ is fine.

So I think I'm just going to give the 60mm Lewmar blocks a try, and go from there. That seems about mid-way between the two extremes of opinion . Besides: The Admiral won't let me spend over $400 on the 80mm Lewmar solution.

Jim


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> I have a 28' boat, with a 6:1 mainsheet system, and we need every bit of it. How large is the main on your boat? Mine is about 250 sq. ft.


Going by the 1/2*luff*foot calculation: 198 sq. ft.

Jim


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

SEMIJim said:


> Somewhere between 15 and 20 kts, we'll be putting a reef in.
> 
> If we get 30 kt gusts w/o a reef in, we've done something very wrong, IMHO. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but it _shouldn't_ happen.


I don't know the waters that you are sailing in Jim; but some days out here in SF Bay we get light/moderate winds in the more protected areas; all the way to heavy winds with gusts to 35-45 in "The Slot" (the central bay in front of the Golden Gate Bridge). In between the two are areas where wind goes from light to high wind gusts and the boat goes from drifting to heeling heavily while the boat picks up speed. The gusts are controllable with some spilling and/or rounding up and keeping the sails full helps to make headway between the gusts (often times we are also fighting the current).

Don't get me wrong; we are usually reefed down more heavily than other boats on the bay when the wind picks up. However; I would not have my running rigging set up for a potential failure if the wind decided to overpower us before we could get a reef set.



> 8:1?!?! You do realize we're talking about a 30' boat here, right?
> {windward sheeting}Don't know what that means, sorry.
> It seems experimentation is in order. Chris suggests not sheeting the main in quite so tight and bringing the traveler up, you suggest sheeting the main down tight and lowering the traveler.


Yes; I do. I also realize that the boat is set up with a 2/3 boom sheet and the loads get much higher with that type of control setup. Again; you want your crew to have an easy time working the sheets so fatigue does not set in. That's what 2-speed winches and triple blocks are for. You already know that a 4:1 system is too much working load; why not fix it? Dump the extra line down onto the cabin sole when you are going upwind; so that it is not in the way of your feet and tiller. 6:1 would probably be a good compromise.

Windward Sheeting is a special traveler that Harken makes. It releases the leward cam cleat on each tack so that you only have one control line to release when you want to hike or lower the car. It's an interesting invention; but not really necessary unless you want your controls at the car instead of at the ends of the track. You probably have 4:1 purchase on your traveler and that should be fine for your purposes.

If you loosen the main and hike the traveler you -might- reduce heel; or you might increase draft (power) and become over powered. When we want to go fast in light wind we hike the traveler and ease the main. The small amount of twist at the top is not really an issue for performance; the curvature of the sail down low is what we are looking for. If you flatten the sail you are first going to reduce it's power and then you can lower the traveler car to control it. If you get wind that is too much for this then you can ease the sheet to luff the sail; or reef.



> I am _never_ going to be trying to sail that boat in 30 kt winds with a full main. By 30 kts I should be on the 2nd reef point and have the #3 up, if anything.


It's not about what you plan; it's about planning for what might be an unplanned situation. That's where you consider "what's the max load that these components will EVER possibly see"? And then you usually double that figure for safety. I'm sure this type of safety factor has been put into your standing rigging; why should it be any less for the controls? Otherwise; it's the life of you and your crew that you are putting in the hands of the weather gods. But we are only talking about what you want for a conservative cruising setup so you can get away with a rated SWL for a gust at 40 kts (IE SWL of 4000 lbs). Harken's sailing-spec calculator recommends these components, the load calculator confirms it; and these calculators were developed by engineers who know what components are suitable for the loading described.



> Had a chance to look at some Lewmar blocks over the weekend. I must say I'm impressed. They somehow seemed more... substantial (?), is the best way I can think to put it, than the approximate equivalent Harken parts. Also, it looks to me like Lewmar is getting higher safe working and peak loads than Harken in blocks with a smaller footprint.


Does not matter what brand IMHO; so long as the SWL is in the correct range. Please, don't confuse "Breaking Load" with "Peak Load". You never want for the actual "peak" load to be close to the breaking load; because you are only asking for a failure of the component; or premature wear (damage to the bearings, fatigue of the metal, etc).



> I've had Alex say the 60mm Lewmar fiddle blocks should be fine for our needs (SWL: 882 lbs, breaking: 1764 lbs.)...
> 
> So I think I'm just going to give the 60mm Lewmar blocks a try, and go from there. That seems about mid-way between the two extremes of opinion . Besides: The Admiral won't let me spend over $400 on the 80mm Lewmar solution.


Hmm... I think you should be making the decision based on what the calculator tells you and erring on the side of safety. At 25 kts wind your mainsheet bail will see a load of 1500 lbs; so that is way too close to the breaking load of 1760 lbs. Certainly 25kts wind is within the normal cruising range for most boats; your apparent wind in 15 kts true is over 20kts. Personally I would want components that are failure-proof instead of failure-prone. Does The Admiral have a good life jacket? She should consider the mainsheet control just as important to her safety as a good PFD.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

SEMIJim said:


> Going by the 1/2*luff*foot calculation: 198 sq. ft.
> 
> Jim


Pretty close! the Pearson sail plan shows 197 sq. ft..


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

KeelHaulin said:


> Hmm... I think you should be making the decision based on what the calculator tells you and erring on the side of safety.


I cannot argue with that. But I likewise cannot convince The Admiral of it when I've got local people arguing differently. Plus I've had at least two different people tell me the Harken calculators over-estimate. (Yes, of course at least one of them said that w/in earshot of The Admiral.)



KeelHaulin said:


> At 25 kts wind your mainsheet bail will see a load of 1500 lbs; so that is way too close to the breaking load of 1760 lbs.


At 25 kts I'll be reefed, unless it's a puff and the average wind speed is under 20kts.



KeelHaulin said:


> Does The Admiral have a good life jacket? She should consider the mainsheet control just as important to her safety as a good PFD.


She does. We both do.

Problem is: I have Alex telling me those Lewmar parts are sufficient to our needs. I have local people telling me everything from the same thing to "there's nothing wrong with your current blocks." In the end: It's her boat and her money.

Is there a chance the new Lewmar parts are not as strong as the current Shaffer parts?

Jim


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## svindigo (Sep 11, 2002)

FWIW we use a 4:1 cascading to a 16:1 mainsheet on a 400 sq ft main and (touch wood) we have had good luck with this arrangement. 400 ft2 is pretty much the limit though even with prudent reefing.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Jim-

I understand the position you are in. There are plenty of people walking the docks that can give advice; but the bottom line is you need to base your decisions on what you KNOW to be correct. Always keep that in mind; and keep in mind that riggers are very well paid because they KNOW what the correct applications are and the decisions they make are for the safety of more people than just the owners. I'm sure that Harken's calculator is on the conservative side; but they also need to be sure that their advice is not wrong in a large percentage of the inquiries.

Most people that own a boat; specifically a sailboat are aware that the safety of the crew and guests are ultimately the responsibility of the skipper; so when something that could have been prevented happens the liability rests with the skipper (owner) in your case; not the people who may have given their (wrong) advice. That's why it is important to choose the correct hardware for things like mainsheet controls; it could go way beyond your insurance liability limit if the boom fails and severely injures (or kills) someone. For the extra 2-300 bucks it IS cheap insurance for the long time you will own the boat. It is a small expense relative to the purchase and long-term mainenance and berthing costs; so it should be a no-brainer (IMHO).

Do some online searching for a good price on the hardware; you might find that the cost is not as high as seen on the Harken (MSRP) website should you choose to select items yourself. Garhauer has some pretty good online prices should you decide to go with them.

Call a rigging shop and ask them to spec the correct block setup for your boat. If you do; pay them for their time by purchasing the product through them. That way you can be sure you get the correct size parts; but it will probably cost a bit more than buying online.

I don't know what the load capacity of your old controls are; if you replace them with 4:1 and low load blocks it seems to me like it would be trading one bad apple for another. If those Schaefer blocks happen to be high load carrying you could be making matters worse.

My opinion is based on what the Harken calculator says for 35-45kts. My description of SWL vs. Breaking Load and what it should mean to you is based on my knowledge, experience and judgement as a Mechanical Engineer (FWIW). This is only my opinion; and I don't take any responsibility for your decisions (or anyone else who reads this thread).


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## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

I think there are a couple of points which are confusing. I take the normal design sail area as around 15 knots real - 17 or so apparent. The Harken calculator gives the force presumably for that sail area in whatever wind speed. Sure if you get gusts to 30 you will be well overpowered, like about 3 x. You would want to have reefed but if you haven't as may happen, various adjustments will occur ie heeling and spilling wind. I doubt the calculator adjusts for that because it is a function of the boat. The boat may also round up, spilling wind. However the basic point would be that you could have difficulty releasing the mainsheet because the loads would be greater.
My point about the traveller is a bit simplified. Setting aside light winds, having the traveller down and the mainsheet tight both flattens the sail, and by decreasing twist can make the leech tighten giving a loss of power in the upper sail by loss of laminar flow. That is fine in a reasonably steady wind. However the other approach is to let the upper part in effect luff, by letting the mainsheet out which is fairly instinctive in a gust. That also lets the boom out which may be temporarily helpful, except that the jib then makes turning upwind harder as the rig is unbalanced. Accordingly you can maintain some drive and balance by moving the traveller up and the mainsheet out, or simply moving the traveller down and the mainsheet in or out depending on whether the response is enough. They interact.
A difficulty in a gust is that the apparent wind moves aft increasing heeling, and maybe requiring you to head up. It may be that you are steering and have to use one hand or your wife has to handle the main. That said you are probably cruising, and want to be comfortable and secure rather than wanting to get into any complexity.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Here is something that you might want to consider:

http://www.harkenstore.com/uniface.urd/scpdinw1.ShowProd?409Z56LC4Z4Q6

Looks like it's rated for 275 sq ft at mid-boom so it should work for your application. What's neat about it is that the fine-tune is fixed to the ends so when you adjust with it you don't run out of purchase. The best of both worlds for sure! Sailnet has a very attractive price on it (click the add to cart to see their retail price).

Was doing some checking on my boat's mainsheet; it appears (via Harken's calculator) that the double block that attaches to my traveler is not big enough either  Rated at 2500 Lbs SWL; I'm sure we are exceeding that by a bit when we get out in the heavy wind. While not severely undersized; it will be upgraded sooner than later. My boat has 3/4 boom sheeting with 300 sq-ft main.

It's possible that the Harken page is calculating mainsheet load in the event of a round-down (IE if you are 90deg to the wind and generating lift). It would make sense that they give maximum possible load numbers to be sure the product you pick cannot fail under most circumstances.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I'll make it easy for you Jim. Take a walk around the club/marina and look at the sheeting systems on other boats around the same size as yours. Then go the boat store and buy what they have.

Don't try to save money by buying something more economical or slightly smaller or not quite as well made. This is a piece of gear that you buy once every fifteen or twenty years. Get a good one. Get a big one.

If you can only afford to buy the top half then buy that now and wait until spring to get the other part.

Use 1/2 inch line.

Don't assume that you are going to be able to avoid 30 or 35 knot gusts, because they come up fast and are gone before you can get anywhere near the reefing lines.

After you've sailed the boat reefed a couple of times, you're not going to want to do it unless it's absolutely necessary, because the sail shape is bad, and it flaps and makes noise and is just butt ugly to look at. So you're going to do what most of us do and get out there, get hit by a couple of gusts and then MAYBE reef, or else just let the sheet fly for a few seconds until it blows through.

Most of the time, you reef because you are out there in the middle of something that's uncomfortable or dangerous and you have to keep going forward, but it is rare to see anyone leaving the slip with their sails in bondage... (the wife maybe, but not the sails  )


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I just put the harken upwind track/traveler on my 30' Jeanneau ith 160# of main, which will be 190 with a full roach. I currently have the original 4-1 also. may go to a 6-1 or even the 4-1 with smaller 4-1 built in for a 16-1. if only to make it easier for spouse to pull in and use. 

I rerigged my boom vang the other day too, went from a 4-1 to a 6-1, boy is that nice when the wind picks up, along with bringing it back to the top cabin with a winch availible too! Hopefully I will not need that. 

In the end tho, go bigger, not smaller!

marty


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

KeelHaulin said:


> Jim-
> 
> I understand the position you are in. There are plenty of people walking the docks that can give advice; but the bottom line is you need to base your decisions on what you KNOW to be correct.


I haven't been asking "just anybody." The three local people, four, incl. the PO, are all sailors with _extensive_ sailing experience on multiple boats. Three of them, at least, have extensive racing experience. (Not just club racing, either.)



KeelHaulin said:


> Most people that own a boat; specifically a sailboat are aware that the safety of the crew and guests are ultimately the responsibility of the skipper;...


I'm well-aware of that.



KeelHaulin said:


> It is a small expense relative to the purchase and long-term mainenance and berthing costs; so it should be a no-brainer (IMHO).


All these "small expenses" are adding up to be one rather large expense. We're being nickel-and-dime'd to death. We started out with a $13k boat. By the time taxes, club/slip/storage fees, new/additional equipment (good GPS, etc.) and needed upgrades/repairs (head rebuild, oil-changing system for the A4, etc.) get done with us, we'll be up to somewhere in the vicinity of $20k. The Admiral is getting twitchy. I don't blame her.



KeelHaulin said:


> I don't know what the load capacity of your old controls are; if you replace them with 4:1 and low load blocks it seems to me like it would be trading one bad apple for another. If those Schaefer blocks happen to be high load carrying you could be making matters worse.


I don't know, either. I don't know as it's possible to find out. They're original equipment, which means they were put on the boat 31 years ago. I'm not sure it really matters. They were put in in an end-boom sheeting configuration, and we're at 2/3 to 3/4 boom now.



KeelHaulin said:


> My opinion is based on what the Harken calculator says for 35-45kts. My description of SWL vs. Breaking Load and what it should mean to you ...


35-40 kts! Holy mackerel! If I'm out in 35-40 kts, even if they're just puffs, and I don't have two reefs in, I don't belong in that boat on the water.

The blocks I have on order are good to 19 kts (SWL) and 27 kts (breaking load), with a full main. Now that might be pushing the envelope, _assuming_ we're still running un-reefed in 19 kt winds and we're getting 27 kt gusts. Personally, I rather doubt I'll be sailing in that weatherw/o at least _one_ reef in. (The PO, a _very_ experienced sailor and racer, used to put the 1st reef in at around 20 kts, dropped from the #1 to the #3 at 25 kts, put the 2nd reef in approaching 30 kts, and dropped the #3 at above that, IIRC.)

I appreciate your points, KeelHaulin, really I do. I like to over-design/over-specify, myself. But The Admiral ain't goin' for it this time and believe the Lewmar blocks we have on order will be up to the task.

Jim


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Sailormann said:


> I'll make it easy for you Jim. Take a walk around the club/marina and look at the sheeting systems on other boats around the same size as yours. Then go the boat store and buy what they have.


You know, that's such a simple idea I completely missed it 



Sailormann said:


> Don't try to save money by buying something more economical or slightly smaller or not quite as well made.


It's not so much a question of "saving money," as not spending any more than necessary. And the Lewmar racing blocks we have on order are well-made, trust me .



Sailormann said:


> After you've sailed the boat reefed a couple of times, you're not going to want to do it unless it's absolutely necessary, ...


See my last reply to KeelHaulin regarding how the PO used to operate the boat.

We did sail her once, already, with a reef in. A reef in and no headsail. Did 7.5 kts in about 15 kts true (according to SailFlow, later on) on a beam reach, at one point.



Sailormann said:


> ... it is rare to see anyone leaving the slip with their sails in bondage... (the wife maybe, but not the sails  )


  That time I mentioned above, we left the slip with a reef in.

Reefing's a performance issue, too, as I'm sure you well know. As per the common wisdom: I'd rather shake out a reef I didn't need than have to put one in when I'm finally left with no choice.

Jim


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Double Post...


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

SEMIJim said:


> I haven't been asking "just anybody." The three local people, four, incl. the PO, are all sailors with _extensive_ sailing experience on multiple boats. Three of them, at least, have extensive racing experience. (Not just club racing, either.)


Well; let's just say that people who have not "crunched the numbers" are not well enough informed to give you the advice you are looking for. I guess that I have a different perspective than your local sailors because heavy wind is the norm on SF Bay and it's not uncommon to see the racing sailboats heeled to 60 deg, dismastings, catamarans getting flipped, boats in distress, etc. Every weekend in the summer there is some sort of Pan Pan call for a boat that is sinking or a person that has gone overboard it seems. Lots of people are out sailing in boats that are under-equipped or people that are just too confident in their skills. That's why I suggest over-building the running rigging; at least it would minimize that potential for failure/injury.



> All these "small expenses" are adding up to be one rather large expense. We're being nickel-and-dime'd to death. We started out with a $13k boat. By the time taxes, club/slip/storage fees, new/additional equipment (good GPS, etc.) and needed upgrades/repairs (head rebuild, oil-changing system for the A4, etc.) get done with us, we'll be up to somewhere in the vicinity of $20k. The Admiral is getting twitchy. I don't blame her.


Welcome to sailboat ownership! Some humorous things I have been told are:

B.O.A.T. - Break Out Another Thousand
A BOAT is a hole in the water that you throw money into.
Owning a sailboat is like taking a shower while ripping up hundred dollar bills.

Just think what it could cost if you have a mainsheet failure and your main, boom, rig get damaged. Hopefully your ins will cover some of it; if they don't require a survey to determine cause.



> I don't know, either. I don't know as it's possible to find out. They're original equipment, which means they were put on the boat 31 years ago. I'm not sure it really matters. They were put in in an end-boom sheeting configuration, and we're at 2/3 to 3/4 boom now.


All of these things point to one thing. Likely undersized, getting old enough to have cracking sheaves; basically in need of replacement. Whoever moved it in 4 feet without re-sizing it really did not know what they were doing. It was designed for end-boom loads; it should be replaced with something that is properly sized.



> 35-40 kts! Holy mackerel! If I'm out in 35-40 kts, even if they're just puffs, and I don't have two reefs in, I don't belong in that boat on the water.


You'd be amazed at what your boat's hull and standing rig is designed to handle. I think you are a little overwhelmed with the boat and it heeling while she sails in 'moderate' conditions. It takes some getting used to; and someday you may want to sail in heavier conditions with less reefing. Or, I could be totally wrong; your particular boat may have too much mainsail area relative to the Jib and become a handfull when the wind pipes up. I learned to sail on a Columbia 24 and it was great until the wind hit 20 kts and then it was very uncomfortable because the main was way too big; rudder too small.



> The blocks I have on order are good to 19 kts (SWL) and 27 kts (breaking load), with a full main. Now that might be pushing the envelope, _assuming_ we're still running un-reefed in 19 kt winds and we're getting 27 kt gusts. Personally, I rather doubt I'll be sailing in that weatherw/o at least _one_ reef in. (The PO, a _very_ experienced sailor and racer, used to put the 1st reef in at around 20 kts, dropped from the #1 to the #3 at 25 kts, put the 2nd reef in approaching 30 kts, and dropped the #3 at above that, IIRC.)


Way undersized IMHO. You never want to put your rigging in the potential failure zone when sailing under normal/moderate wind conditions. What about the event of a hard gybe? What if you can't get a reef set because the halyard sticks? An unforseen problem can be compounded if something (like your mainsheet rig) physically breaks while you are under full sail.



> But The Admiral ain't goin' for it this time and believe the Lewmar blocks we have on order will be up to the task.


If it were me I would either mutiny or go AWOL. I don't think Lewmar 50mm blocks are correct for your application (good god man, predicted breaking load at ~25kts??), and I pray for you and all those who sail onboard your boat. Unknowing, self-proclaimed, Admirals who don't make safety conscious decisions should be keel-hauled!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I like to go out when there's a SCA posted. I was out earlier this year on a day where someone had reported some boats had broken free of their moorings... and was out sailing in that. Didn't see any powerboats that day for some reason.  The gusts were easily up to the mid-30s...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> All these "small expenses" are adding up to be one rather large expense. We're being nickel-and-dime'd to death. We started out with a $13k boat. By the time taxes, club/slip/storage fees, new/additional equipment (good GPS, etc.) and needed upgrades/repairs (head rebuild, oil-changing system for the A4, etc.) get done with us, we'll be up to somewhere in the vicinity of $20k. The Admiral is getting twitchy. I don't blame her.


Gee Sunshine - hate to ruin your day - but a 30 foot boat costs between 40 and 50 K. You can spend it at the front-end or you can spend it over the first two years, but you're going spend it  Perhaps the Admiral can pick up a part-tme job to help out for a while ???


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sailormann has a very good point... if you bought a boat that needed work, you've saved money on the front end, but it has to be paid in either parts or sweat equity somewhere along the line.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

KeelHaulin said:


> Well; let's just say that people who have not "crunched the numbers" are not well enough informed to give you the advice you are looking for.


I gave 'em the numbers. A couple replied that they felt Harken's calculators "over-spec" things. (My words, not theirs.)



KeelHaulin said:


> I guess that I have a different perspective than your local sailors because heavy wind is the norm on SF Bay and it's not uncommon to see the racing sailboats heeled to 60 deg, dismastings, catamarans getting flipped, boats in distress, etc.


I don't believe (the key word here is "believe") that's common, here. I'll have to ask about it. But your point is valid, nonetheless, if for no other reason than we someday plan to cruise with this boat. So what we're experiencing here, or likely to experience here, isn't necessarily what we'll experience elsewhere. Indeed: Even just going across the state, to Lake Michigan, will be quite different. (I understand Lake Michigan can become quite harsh, quite quickly, quite unexpectedly.)



KeelHaulin said:


> Welcome to sailboat ownership! Some humorous things I have been told are:
> 
> B.O.A.T. - Break Out Another Thousand
> A BOAT is a hole in the water that you throw money into.
> Owning a sailboat is like taking a shower while ripping up hundred dollar bills.


I think that's supposed to be "standing under a cold shower" . Heard 'em . Related 'em to The Admiral. She didn't see why these things should be true. She's finding out.



KeelHaulin said:


> Just think what it could cost if you have a mainsheet failure and your main, boom, rig get damaged.


Precisely one of my points, night before last.



KeelHaulin said:


> Way undersized IMHO. You never want to put your rigging in the potential failure zone when sailing under normal/moderate wind conditions. What about the event of a hard gybe?


Another point I made.



KeelHaulin said:


> What if you can't get a reef set because the halyard sticks? An unforseen problem can be compounded if something (like your mainsheet rig) physically breaks while you are under full sail.


Good argument. I'll keep that one in reserve for the next time .



KeelHaulin said:


> If it were me I would either mutiny or go AWOL.


I mutinied. I called up and canceled the order late yesterday afternoon. (Made it _just_ in time, too.)



KeelHaulin said:


> I don't think Lewmar 50mm blocks are correct for your application


60mm, actually. It's not so much the 60mm, but the SWL and breaking strength.



KeelHaulin said:


> (good god man, predicted breaking load at ~25kts??),


27 kts, but your point is valid.

Now I just need to decide between the Lewmar 80mm fiddles, the Harken 4:1 solution (57mm dual block, 76mm fiddle), the Harken 6:1 solution, or maybe the Harken 4:1/8:1 self-contained system. (I'd really like to go w/Lewmar, but they don't appear to do anything with a ratchet, other than fiddle blocks.) Decisions, decisions. The lower I go, the faster I can move the boom and the less mainsheet I'll have on the cockpit sole, but the more strength it'll take to use. The higher I go, the slower the boom moves, the more sheet on the cockpit sole, but the more likely The Admiral, and perhaps I, will be able to deal with it. I think a tour of the club's slips is in order, as Sailormann suggested.

To you, KeelHaulin, and the others: Thanks for patiently continuing to beat me up on this issue. Who knows: Perhaps y'all saved our boat--maybe even our lives.

Jim


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

SEMIJim said:


> So what we're experiencing here, or likely to experience here, isn't necessarily what we'll experience elsewhere. Indeed: Even just going across the state, to Lake Michigan, will be quite different. (I understand Lake Michigan can become quite harsh, quite quickly, quite unexpectedly.)


Now you are thinking more "globally" 



> I mutinied. I called up and canceled the order late yesterday afternoon. (Made it _just_ in time, too.)
> 
> 60mm, actually. It's not so much the 60mm, but the SWL and breaking strength.


Wait... You quoted SWL at 19kts; breaking at 27. I put the following numbers into the Harken Mainsheet Calculator

E = 11.8
P = 33.5
V = 27
X = 4

With those numbers I get a mainsheet load of 1772 lbs. Since you stated the blocks you selected will fail at 27kts; I assumed that you were talking about the 50mm blocks. The 60mm blocks have a SWL of 1760 lbs; not failure load. I think the confusion lies where they show SWL in both KG and LBS on their spec sheet, but they don't quote failure loads. Since the 60mm specs don't include failure load I can't tell you at what windspeed you would expect a failure at; but the Lewmar Selection Guide shows the 60mm blocks as being suitable for mid-boom use on boats up to 34 feet; with 72mm blocks also suggested. However, the header states "for hand held and winch control" which suggests that a mid-boom setup should have a dedicated winch (or extra leverage that their 6:1 blocks are not well suited for).



> Now I just need to decide between the Lewmar 80mm fiddles, the Harken 4:1 solution (57mm dual block, 76mm fiddle), the Harken 6:1 solution, or maybe the Harken 4:1/8:1 self-contained system. (I'd really like to go w/Lewmar, but they don't appear to do anything with a ratchet, other than fiddle blocks.) Decisions, decisions. The lower I go, the faster I can move the boom and the less mainsheet I'll have on the cockpit sole, but the more strength it'll take to use. The higher I go, the slower the boom moves, the more sheet on the cockpit sole, but the more likely The Admiral, and perhaps I, will be able to deal with it. I think a tour of the club's slips is in order, as Sailormann suggested.


I'm thinking your biggest consideration among these choices is the amount of leverage that will be needed. I don't think the Admiral wants to develop ape-arms while trimming the main; and as for the additional sheet you could get a sheet bag to hold the excess when you are sailing upwind.

If you want to minimize the amount of sheet you need, you would want a 4:1/16:1 setup but it looks to require two mounting points on the boom for single blocks. (You should check that mount on the boom BTW to be sure it is properly sized, since it was retrofitted in).

The 4:1/8:1 that Harken sells is essentially an 8:1 system that has double bitter ends. It works by pulling on both lines to get a 4:1 sheeting speed/force, but you will need 8:1 line length to make the sheet long enough. They also make a 3:1/6:1 but it might be too small for your mainsail. If it were me; I would go with the 4:1/8:1 or a 4:1/16:1 with separate sheets.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

KeelHaulin said:


> With those numbers I get a mainsheet load of 1772 lbs. Since you stated the blocks you selected will fail at 27kts; I assumed that you were talking about the 50mm blocks. The 60mm blocks have a SWL of 1760 lbs; not failure load.


I'm looking at Lewmar's 2006/7 dead tree material catalogue. The 29901624 (60mm fiddle, cam/becket/ratchet) is shown with a 400 kg SWL (882 lbs) and a 800 kg breaking load (1764 lbs).



KeelHaulin said:


> I'm thinking your biggest consideration among these choices is the amount of leverage that will be needed. I don't think the Admiral wants to develop ape-arms while trimming the main;


No 



KeelHaulin said:


> and as for the additional sheet you could get a sheet bag to hold the excess when you are sailing upwind.


There's a thought.



KeelHaulin said:


> (You should check that mount on the boom BTW to be sure it is properly sized, since it was retrofitted in).


Will do.



KeelHaulin said:


> The 4:1/8:1 that Harken sells is essentially an 8:1 system that has double bitter ends. It works by pulling on both lines to get a 4:1 sheeting speed/force, but you will need 8:1 line length to make the sheet long enough. They also make a 3:1/6:1 but it might be too small for your mainsail. If it were me; I would go with the 4:1/8:1 or a 4:1/16:1 with separate sheets.


Yeah, the 3:1/6:1 is not suitable for the amount of sail we have with mid-boom sheeting.

I'm thinking of the KISS principle, here. I'm thinking maybe just going 6:1 and being done with it.

What do you think of this combo (discovered by The Admiral, I would note):
Harken 2141 57 mm Carbo Triple Ratchet w/Cam, Becket
Harken 2604 BLK-57MM CARBO TRPL

The limits are imposed by the traveler-mounted end, the 2141, and are based on the cam cleat. We'd have an SWL good to 27 kts and a breaking load good to 43 kts, based on Harken's mainsheet loading calculator.

Jim


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Now, I'm probably way out of line here, but are you sure the single point loading the DPO mounted on the boom is sufficient? For example, Catalina 30's distribute their mid-boom sheeting across two load points on the boom. Not that this makes any difference as you plan to sail only on calm days, but you may inadvertently break your boom during an accidental (inadvertent?) gybe. Heck, here in windy S.F. Bay, I know a guy who broke his boom during an accidental gybe with three load points on his mid boom sheeting. And I, myself, have drug the ol' boom in the water a time or two.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

It sounds like an acceptable setup Jim. The only thing better I could suggest is the 1556 triple (3800# SWL); but it is much more expensive. I think a breaking load of 43 kts is much better for safety as you will probably have reefed down or spilled the sheets before experiencing that much wind; and you will have 6:1 with ratchet which is certainly an upgrade over your current setup. Unfortunately I don't think you can add a fine trim setup to the 57mm Carbo Triple if you ever decided to upgrade (where you probably could with the 1556). But; there are other ways to get the added purchase if you ever decided there is need for it.


I agree that double attachment points on the boom would be good also; it reduces load on each attachment and really reduces the chance of a failure. If your boom does not have internal reefing lines you might consider going to a heavy bail if you don't want to switch to double blocks.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

KeelHaulin said:


> It sounds like an acceptable setup Jim. The only thing better I could suggest is the 1556 triple (3800# SWL); but it is much more expensive.


Yes. Using Harken's "Compu Spec," it comes up with the 1556 and 1954 if I specify mid-boom sheeting, the 2141 and 2604 if I specify 3/4 boom sheeting. Ours is actually more like 2/3. (Boom is 13' long, attachment point is about 4' from the end.)



KeelHaulin said:


> I agree that double attachment points on the boom would be good also; it reduces load on each attachment and really reduces the chance of a failure. If your boom does not have internal reefing lines you might consider going to a heavy bail if you don't want to switch to double blocks.


Going from memory: It's already got a bail that resembles the bail on those blocks. I'll have to double-check.

Edit: Wait--don't have to go from memory. One of the pictures I posted in my original post at the start of this thread shows the bail on the bottom of the boom quite clearly.

How the heck would one add a bail? I wouldn't mind going to separate single blocks on the boom and distributing the load. Boom's hollow, I know, but... how do you get the hardware to fasten anything in there all the way down there, much less tighten it down? Hire mice? 

Jim


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

It looks like a standard 3/8" internal boom bail. Probably no worries about the bail itself failing; the concern would be about the bail pulling out due to metal fatigue of the aluminum boom. I have not installed one of these bails, it seems to me that you would cut/drill the holes to fit the part and then slide the bail down from the end of the boom. Run a fish wire down and wrap it around the bail before sending it down through the boom so you can pull the eye out when it is in position. The bail should have threaded fittings so you don't have to hold nuts on from behind. www.ballengerspars.com shows both 3/8" and 1/2" internal bails on their parts list. Give them a call and ask about suitable sizes and if it would be a good decision to add a second block/bail to your boom.

As for the size of the block hardware; when in doubt it's always best to oversize. If you do double blocks on the boom you could go with the 57mm blocks on the boom because the load is distributed to two separate load points. So for a 6:1 you could do a 2602 double, 2600 single, and the 1564 triple.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Hmmm... Surgery like that on the boom is a bit more than I'm prepared to tackle atm. I'll inspect the boom carefully for signs of fatigue in the area of that bail and ask at the club if we either have any riggers amongst the membership (I'm betting we do) or if the club has a relationship with a local rigger, and have them inspect it. I have to find a rigger, anyway, as my aft port lower shroud has a couple busted strands and needs replacement.

Providing nobody comes up with any show-stopper comments regarding the latest (Harken) components we've selected, I'll order them this weekend and get 'em on their way.

Thanks again for your help, KeelHaulin, and everybody else.

Jim


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

SEMIJim-

Just be aware that you don't need a rigger to replace a shroud with broken strands. You can often take the old shround down (if you've got double lowers) without much risk to the rig...as long as you don't sail the boat, and get a piece of 1x19 stainless and the modular terminal hardware, like StaLok, Hayn HiMOD or Norseman, and install it yourself. You'll probably want a Loos rigging tension guage to properly re-tension the shroud.

If you don't have double lowers, you probably should lead a halyard from the masthead and use it as a temporary shroud, while doing the replacement. 

However, if the lower shroud has broken strands in it, and it wasn't due to impact or some other type of damage to that specific shroud, then there's a very good chance that much of your rigging is in need of replacement—especially if it is all of the same age. Did you have a rigging survey done when you bought the boat??


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

I'm going to reply to the standing rigging issue in a new thread, rather then haul this one off in a new direction.

Jim


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## crwber (Dec 3, 2006)

*blocks*

FYI.....Jims suggestion of the 2604 and 2141 triple blocks work well. found them both on ebay for $55 and $80 dollars respectively. we race with it on a contention 30, end boom, and it has comfortably kept good control up to 45kts.

we have found that 10mm main sheet is kind on the hands, but with the 6:1 purchase does not run as freely as i would like in light winds....here is a compromise.....i am tempted by 8mm replacement sheet but it will need full fingered gloves if you are going to play it aggressively.

hope this helps

Rob


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## TKanzler (Oct 2, 2007)

SEMIJim said:


> Providing nobody comes up with any show-stopper comments regarding the latest (Harken) components we've selected, I'll order them this weekend and get 'em on their way.


I may be late to this party, but I thought that I should mention something that I didn't see spelled out above.

In the world of mechanical advantage (ropes and sheaves, levers, gears, etc.), you don't get anything for free. I saw it mentioned many times that your sheet loads are too high, and that it may be due to the 3/4 boom attachment, which is certainly possible. It was also mentioned that you didn't want too much line piled up in the cockpit when close-hauled. But remember that by going to more parts of line, the line-pull is lower while the amount of line needed is increased, but the change in distance between the blocks is reduced, so you can end up in the same place.

If the two blocks were in the same horizontal plane, then for a given sheet pull force at your hand (ignoring friction), and the same horizontal angular change in the boom, a 2-part system at the end of the boom is equivalent to a 4-part system at mid-boom. Same force at your hand, same amount of line used to bring in or let out the boom a certain angle. You'd be bringing in and letting out the same amount of line during a jibe.

So, assuming the original main sheet system was 4 parts at the end of the boom, and you now are connected at the 3/4-point, you would have 4/3 the force at the boom connection (for a given wind load and boom angle), resulting in a 33% increase in the force in your hand (not counting friction, which is substantial with low quality blocks). You would also only use 3/4 of the amount of line it took with the blocks at the end. You pull less line, but you pull harder.

To bring the single-part force and amount of line used back to where it was with the original configuration (assuming it was 4 parts at the end), you'd need 5.333 parts of line (4/3 x 4 parts). That leaves you with either 5 or 6 parts. 5 parts and you pull less line, but pull harder; 6 parts for a lighter hand, but a bit more line gets used.

If the boom attachment was at the 2/3 point, then a 6-part system would give you exactly the same force at the hand and amount of line used for a given angle change as the original 4-parts system at the end of the boom.

The whole problem gets more involved if the fixed block is now at a different elevation than it originally was, making the forces required when close-hauled higher if the block is now lower than it was originally, assuming you're trying to bring the boom to the same angle from centerline as before. If the fixed attachment is lower than original, then 6 parts is more likely to emulate the original configuration, though with a cost in amount of line used further off the wind.

Mind you, this is just a comparison of the original arrangement to the new arrangement - no commentary on whether what you think it originally had is right or even desireable. And, as mentioned before, the forces in the boom change as you move the block termination towards the mast, as well as the attachment forces going up. Even the reaction at the mast connection is different.

But I just thought that I should point out that if you match the number of parts to the relative boom location, you'll get the same force at your hand, and the same amount of line used for a given angle change, no matter where you attach it. Force times distance for a given boom angle change can be the same regardless of how many parts are used if you terminate them at the right spots and use low friction hardware.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Let's compare my boat with his; just to give some perspective. If our main is full (300 ft^2) and we have 25 kts true wind; the sheet load will be 2000 lbs (harken calculator). My boat has appx 3/4 boom sheeting spread across 3 pulleys giving a 5:1 purchase. The approximate load on the sheet is 400 lbs. With a 2-speed winch on the doghouse at the cockpit the load gets reduced to 66 lbs at the 1'st gear (1:1 winch drum to handle; 6:1 leverage), and at 2'nd speed the force is 10lbs on the winch handle (40:1 leverage).

At 66 lbs of force on the handle it is a tough grind to sheet the main down to close-hauled from a close reach unless we luff and pull it in by hand. At 10 lbs force we can grind it down to proper trim but it does take some time and effort.

What I am trying to point out is that on Jim's boat with a 6:1 sheet he still will not have enough purchase to do much of anything with the mainsheet unless he luffs the sail. At a load of 1580 lbs on the blocks; the 6:1 setup will have a load of 265 lbs on the sheet. At that load you definitely would need to have a ratcheting cam to safely spill the sheet, and you won't be able to trim it in if you need to flatten the sail (without rounding up into the wind first). If Jim wants a "manageable" system I think a two speed sheet would be the needed (like a 6:1/24:1) setup.

Jim, it's possible that you could re-use your old schaefer blocks to get the 24:1 trim (until you decide you want a better pair of blocks for that part)!


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## bbonifaci (Jun 22, 2007)

I have '78 P31 with mid-boom sheating in the same location as yours. It has basically the same setup that (6/1 Harken) you are considering and it works very well. The only difference is I use 1/2" line which is easier on the hands. In light airs I just convert it to 4/1 by taking one loop off of the blocks. 

Overall it works well, feels comfortable, simple to use. My cam releases by pulling down, and I would not want it the other way. In a high stress situation the last thing you want to do is have to stand up to release it.

And by the way, my compliments on keeping you mind open with all the different opinions coming your way...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Re: Unmanageable mainsheet*

Your mainsheet has two problems. First, the blocks used do not have ball bearings. More than likely the PO took a much better system with him to his new boat. The older clamcleat with stainless jaws is a bear to operate. Second, the midboom sheeting leaves you with less leverage.

I suggest that you go to Layline's website and look at your options for various systems. You may want to go with fiddle blocks from Lewmar or Harken with a smaller cascade attached where the becket usually goes. This will give you a fine and gross adjustment system. The disadvantage is that you will have extra blocks moving across your cockpit. Try a new ball bearing fiddle block system first then add the cascade if needed.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Jim,
Kudos to you. You've gotten and absorbed a veritable ton of advise, made decisions, and changed them. Throughout you've kept perspective and open mindedness on a fairly expensive topic. I am impressed more than a little.

I think it's also time that you and the Admiral sit down and try to reach a consensus of where the boat project is going, if you have not done so already. It's easier to spend money on the things you want than the things you need. And every time I spend money on something to get me by, I end up kicking myself later for not buying the product that will meet my long term needs now. Hey!, I got an excuse, I'm Dutch. That being said, your main sheet blocks will in all likely-hood be the last you ever buy, for this boat or any other and, as you realize, if you buy what you want to spend you may well end up buying again with remorse similar to mine. The meeting with the Admiral might be to no other purpose than you jointly assigning priorities to boat gear. There are people in similar straits to you who go light on the blocks and turn about spending $1000 on custom cushions. A joint resolution to make the boat an all-weather sailer first, a comfortable and beautiful boat second will go a long way to "uneventful" sailing.

I suspect that you know all of this, I just wanted to emphasize the need for a consensus on the battle order. A list with 3-5 levels of priority will aid in that. Many people end up having a boat for years and never do get down to those level 5 items-they're too busy sailing. It's also not a bad idea to have assigned an individual frivolous budget to each person annually. That is money that may be spent unilaterally by either party on something for the boat without permission from the other party. The item may not be frivolous, but it may not be a 1 or 2 priority to the other party. I believe that it was under this provision that CruisingDad acquired his third bbq grill! This makes it just a bit less contentious when either person just has to have something but does not have the logical argument for it's purchase ready to hand. Personally I do not favor a roll-over option on the frivolous purchase clause. That's how you end up with a really expensive oil lamp you'll never use, doesn't fit in the boat, and cost multiples of tuition payments at decent colleges. Annual amount, use it or lose it, or donate to the other party on the strict understanding, "you owe me".

By now you've probably opened a smaller than expected package, gazed upon the contents, and proclaimed, "that's all I get for all that money?" Every time I come home from WM and empty out my sack I have the same feeling-seems like it looked much more substantial when I was buying it at the store than sitting on the counter at home. And the receipt looks far more substantial than it did on the register, when laid alongside the purchase at home. You'll be comforted by the fact that your fellow marina members will be willing to give you about a dime on the dollar to take it off your hands if they're feeling particularly loose with their money that day!

Good luck with the rigging. Again, I am impressed with your level-headedness.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

sailaway21 said:


> Jim,
> Kudos to you. You've gotten and absorbed a veritable ton of advise, made decisions, and changed them. Throughout you've kept perspective and open mindedness on a fairly expensive topic. I am impressed more than a little.


Thanks for the kind words 



sailaway21 said:


> I think it's also time that you and the Admiral sit down and try to reach a consensus of where the boat project is going, if you have not done so already.


We've pretty much already done that. We work together well on this kind of thing, so, while there may be much discussion and gnashing of teeth, at times , we tend to come to mutually agreeable decisions.



sailaway21 said:


> It's easier to spend money on the things you want than the things you need.


Ah, well, you see: _That_ won't be a problem for the nonce. As the common wisdom, borne of experience, goes: This boat has already cost us _far_ more than anticipated. So the well's pretty much run dry for now. IOW: Unless it's _absolutely_ necessary, it ain't gettin' bought. Right now there are only two "must have" items remaining: An oil pump-out adaptor for the A4 from Moyer and an adequate pump, and a rebuild kit for the head. The only near-term "big ticket" item is we're considering having the aft 1/3 of the cockpit deck taken-up, re-cored and re-glassed by a pro, then paint the decks (ourselves). We realize the running rigging, while in serviceable condition, is showing its age--some of it. So we've got a plan to start replacing that incrementally. That one shroud with a couple broken strands will be replaced this fall, and the remainder of the standing rigging inspected when the mast comes down on haul-out.

The only "non-essentials" that are on the list are (possibly) a backup hand-held VHF radio and a backup hand-held GPS. (We have the latter, but it's an old GPS II and doesn't work all that well. It's slow, hard to read, tends not to acquire satellites well...)



sailaway21 said:


> And every time I spend money on something to get me by, I end up kicking myself later for not buying the product that will meet my long term needs now.


Well I know _that_ effect. It's been one of the stories of my life.



sailaway21 said:


> Hey!, I got an excuse, I'm Dutch.


So's my wife. Right "off the boat." We were married in a suburb of Amsterdam .



sailaway21 said:


> A joint resolution to make the boat an all-weather sailer first, a comfortable and beautiful boat second will go a long way to "uneventful" sailing.


I think we both agree on that point.



sailaway21 said:


> It's also not a bad idea to have assigned an individual frivolous budget to each person annually. That is money that may be spent unilaterally by either party on something for the boat without permission from the other party.


We already do that. Have been doing it for about ever since we were married. We each get an "allowance" each pay day, to spend as we see fit. My Plastimo Iris 50 came out of my own, personal "piggy bank." One thing that prevents, other than arguments, is the "If you're getting this than I'm getting that" and then we end up broke from buying toys.



sailaway21 said:


> Good luck with the rigging. Again, I am impressed with your level-headedness.


Thanks! 

Jim


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

Jim,

I realize that I'm more than a few days late to this party, so I hope this hasn't already been covered.

A few pages back you had a question about "conflicting" advice about sail trim using the traveler. One guy says sheet the sail hard and use the traveler to trim. Another says to ease the sheet and trim with the traveler. Both are actually correct, dependant on wind conditions. Sheeting in hard and trimming with the traveler helps me point a little higher in light wind. Setting the traveler to windward and easing the mainsheet puts twist in the sail in stronger winds. A set of teltails on the leach of the main will tell you how much twist you need. The bottom ones are easy, getting the top one to fly takes a little work.

Good luck with your mainsheet.

John


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

US27inKS,

I think somebody mentioned that in a mainsheet traveler question in the Learning To Sail" sub-forum. I'm not sure. But thanks for the info. I think I'll paste your comments into a "cheat sheet" file I have, that'll I'll occasionally re-print and keep on the boat.

Jim


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Jim,

what's the deal? Which arrangment did you decide on? Have already tried it?


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## cvanderson (Jan 29, 2004)

'When you moved the mainsheet forward you changed its leverage on the boom. Halfway up the boom would double the sheet tension, all else equal. A few options:

Get a mainsheet with 8 parts (yours is 4). Sheet tension would be back to normal. Maybe you could get away with 6.

Get a small vang and rig it between your becket and mainsheet. You use your old sheet for gross, low-tension adjustment, and the vang for fine, high-tension adjustment. I think Harken sells a complete system like this, but it must be very expensive. A 2-part vang would double the force on the boom, getting you back to your old sheet tension. A 4-part vang would quadruple the tension, so your sheet tension would be half of what it used to be when it was led to the end of the boom. These systems must be clumsy to use.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> Jim,
> 
> what's the deal? Which arrangment did you decide on? Have already tried it?


We decided to go with the Harken 57mm Triple Carbo stuff, as you and I last discussed, Alex. Only I decided to go with the Ratchmatic instead of the manual switch, because the manual switch on that line is actually _inside_ the hole in the middle of the sheaves, requiring you to stick something in there to flip it on/off. Kind of a dumb design, IMHO.

The bottom block was not in stock at the local place or their distributor, and we were told it'd be 7-10 days. _Should_ be in anywhere from today to next Monday, depending on whether it's closer to the seven days or the ten days, and depending on whether they meant only business days. We're sure hoping it's this week, as we've only three weekends left until haul-out , and the next two are race weekends.

But wanted to give the local business our business and their price was competitive with the most aggressive of the 'net prices.

Jim


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

SEMIJim said:


> We decided to go with the Harken 57mm Triple Carbo stuff, as you and I last discussed, Alex. Only I decided to go with the Ratchmatic instead of the manual switch, because the manual switch on that line is actually _inside_ the hole in the middle of the sheaves, requiring you to stick something in there to flip it on/off. Kind of a dumb design, IMHO.


Good choice...I thought I had mention you get the ratchamatic.

Carbo is good I have a lot of stuff on my boat for Harken.

My boat is mixture of brands...but I decided on that.

I will send you email on main control

Good luck


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## stpabr (Dec 20, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> I have a 28' boat, with a 6:1 mainsheet system, and we need every bit of it. How large is the main on your boat? Mine is about 250 sq. ft.


So what series blocks are you using on your mainsheet system?


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

Steve this thread is over 3 years old, would be nice to know how it worked out 4 the original poster.


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## stpabr (Dec 20, 2008)

Yes I know RXBOT, but sailingdog posts often and I would like an answer from him.
I believe the original poster went with series 57 harken Carbo, similar to what I want


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

Steve, check this out, he changed his mainsheet.

New dual-speed mainsheet for my boat


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