# Winter purchase? Sea trial



## smp (Jul 29, 2010)

Hi everyone. I've found a boat that I would like to make an offer on. I understand that offers are conditional on a survey and often a sea trial as well. Aside from seeing how she handles, is there any other reason that a sea trial is very important? I have researched the boat in question at length and I am certain that I would be happy with how she sails. I am in a position where I can make an offer on the boat but I don't know the logistics of these things when it comes to the spring launch. It's November now so launch is a long way off. I don't imagine that making an offer conditional on a sea trial makes any sense at this point as the boat will be tied up in this deal until May! Or is it? As well as my deposit being tied up. I would rather just buy the boat once the survey checks out and call it a day (and stop wasting time on yachtworld every day). Not sure how to handle launch and that first sail .. would be great if the seller could participate and give me a "run down" of the systems etc. This is my first "big boat". So, is it uncommon to make these kind of arrangements with the seller? The boat is being sold by a broker so I will of course ask him these questions as well but he's one of those "low on time" kind of guys and this particular boat is small fry for him as the other boats he has listed are all much newer, bigger and more expensive.

Thanks


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

You can include anything you like in the offer, doesn't mean the seller has to accept it. I've purchased a few boats without sea trial, so you wouldn't be the first person to do so. As for the first sail, that's a totally acceptable question to ask the broker to request of the seller, but I don't believe it's a contract issue; just a request from one person to another. And don't sell yourself short when it comes to the broker and his time. Sure, bigger boats can net bigger commissions but money talks and (fill in the blank) walks and, as the old adage goes; a bird in the hand can be a really "sticky" situation".....or however that went. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

smp said:


> .... Aside from seeing how she handles, is there any other reason that a sea trial is very important? ...
> Thanks


FWIW, the purpose of a seatrial is not to see how a boat sails. If you line up a the day, the surveyor, the owner, the broker and there is no wind, or a lot of wind...do you think everyone is going to reschedule for a good sailing day? The purpose of a seatrial is to confirm the proper operation of that equipment which cannot be tested on land, primarily the engine and transmission, instruments, radio, head, etc. If you happen to get any insight into how the boat sails, well thats a nice happenstance.

The process:
You sign a deal dependent on a satisfactory survey and the availability of a seatrial. You agree on the escrow amount for the seatrial. $5,000 is a common number.
After the survey, you decide to proceed with the purchase or to cancel. You may re-negotiate the price for the value of any significant defects discovered in the survey.
You pay for the boat, less an escrow held for the sea-trial. 
After the seatrial, the escrow is released to the seller, less the value of any significant defect discovered in the sea-trial. Note that you had better know the engine runs OK during the survey, because the escrow doesn't come close to the cost of an engine replacement.

Obviously you can attempt to negotiate something as different as you wish, but the above is the process commonly used.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

smp,

As far as I'm concerned, there are too many boats out there to deal with a broker who considers his time worth any more than my own. And the boat may be on the lower end of what he likes to deal with, but it's your hard-earned money that you're giving him. I would expect the same respect for it. If he didn't want to deal with buyers for the boat, he shouldn't have agreed to list it.

We, too, purchased a boat at a price the broker didn't normally handle. We were still given the yacht club treatment (drinks, lunch, monogrammed hats with the boat's name) because he took the chance that we'd be repeat customers should we decide to move up. Smart move on his part because I regularly search his site to see what he has listed.

Good luck on your purchase.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I consider a sea trial an essential part of purshasing a boat with an inboard engine and with instruments. I have purchased a boat of a design I knew well enough to know it suited my needs but where a prepurchase seatrial was not possible. We established a very specific list of items which were subject to seatrial, established criteria and fixed value for a failure of those items, (slipping tranmission, unacceptably leaking shaft log, or bad transducer) escrowed money for those items and established a deadline for the testing and release of the escrowed funds. It all went well but then again, nothing failed the test.

Jeff


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## smp (Jul 29, 2010)

Let me make sure I understand. 

- I want to buy the boat now, in late fall.
- I make an offer pending survey and sea trial
- If the survey checks out the transaction is made putting aside 5k in escrow for the sea trial
- six months from now the boat is finally in the water and we conduct a sea trial
- any surprises from the sea trial (gauges not working for example) can then be a negotiating point on the escrow money. ie; $500 to replace said gauge discounted from the 5k (obviously pending agreement)

Am I getting this right? The broker should be able to set all of this up?

And yes, of course the engine, transmission and gauges, that was a stupid question. Would a marine mechanic be able to judge the condition of the engine and transmission while the boat is on the hard? I understand this does not replace a sea trial.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

smp said:


> ...snip...
> Would a marine mechanic be able to judge the condition of the engine and transmission while the boat is on the hard?


The short answer is: No. Engines can be run with a boat on the hard but putting them in gear while running on the hard is a big no-no; this could damage the stuffing box or Cutless bearing, both of which rely on water for lubrication. In all likelihood, given your location the engine will have been winterized which means that if you do an 'engine start test' (will it run for 10 seconds or less in neutral?) in the winter then you probably should re-winterize the engine again. I think I'd wait for Spring as diesels do not like running for short periods when they are cold as incomplete burning can result causing other problems. 
You don't need a marine mechanic to figure out if the engine has been well maintained or not. Your surveyor should be able to give you a vague assessment of the condition of the engine by just looking at a few things. 
- Is the paint job in good condition?
- Are there any signs of coolant leaks near the cooling pumps, heat exchanger (if so equipped)?
- Is there engine oil in the engine? New oil filter?
- Is the engine compartment relatively clean? (absence of oil, antifreeze, and soot is a good thing)
- Is there significant rust on the engine block or motor mounts? (rust on the outside of the engine does not mean that it is rusted on the inside)
- Does the engine wiring harness seem installed in an orderly fashion or is it messy?
- Can the shaft be turned with the engine in neutral?
- Stuffing box and stern tube gland in good condition?
Of course there are a lot of other details to look into. These are just a few that do not require a mechanic at $80/hour to figure out.

Hopefully you can convince the previous owner (PO) to give you a few hours of time in the Spring to show you how he/she has things set up.

What boat make/model/year are we talking about here?

Good luck.


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

Just a thought, but is it totally out of the question to sneak in a "cool weather" sail? I know it's easy for me to say, I'm in Florida, but if there's a weather window coming up and things aren't frozen over?


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

smp said:


> ...
> - any surprises from the sea trial (gauges not working for example) can then be a negotiating point on the escrow money. ie; $500 to replace said gauge discounted from the 5k (obviously pending agreement)
> 
> Am I getting this right? The broker should be able to set all of this up?
> ...


This process is the one that any broker would expect to follow.

Surprises from the seatrial are not a negotiating point. Whatever the cost of repair or replacement for a defect in the equipment being checked, comes automatically 100% out of the escrow. If the stove burners dont work, your out of luck, stuff like that was subject to the survey...

Hire an engine mechanic to assess the engine, in particular including a compression test. Many/most surveyors explicitly exclude the engine and rig from the scope of their survey opinion.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

As many have mentioned, you must test systems during the sea trial. Does the engine make max rpm under load, for example.

Sea trials are conducted right through the winter here, so I can't see why getting in the water now would be a big deal. Not a day at the beach, just dress for it.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

*Sea Trial, Escrow, etc.*



smp said:


> Let me make sure I understand.
> 
> - I want to buy the boat now, in late fall.
> - I make an offer pending survey and sea trial
> ...


You have most of it right. Assuming the boat is in the water and / or it is sailing season, you have the steps down:
See the boat and like it
make an offer, negotiate with owner, come to agreement
have the survey and sea trial done
handle and post survey issues
close on boat, assume ownership and sail home with it

The difficult part of trying to buy the boat today and have a sea trial later, is how to handle any 'problems' that the sea trial uncovers. For example, if the engine overheats during a sea trial, and you haven't closed on the boat, you can tell the owner, "fix the overheating problem or I'm not buying the boat." The owner can fix the problem, or tell you forget it. But what happens if you have already closed on the boat and have money in escrow? Is the overheating caused by a clogged raw water strainer (simple to fix), bad raw water impeller (simple to fix), bad heat exchanger (not too bad to correct) or a bad head gasket (usually big $ to fix)? If it's the worst case, the escrow amount may not be enough to cover the problem.

Or, what if the problems is something relatively minor, but not something the owner warrantied, like the am/fm/cd player crapped out. You could say "I want $300 back for a new radio" and the owner could say "it worked when we closed on the boat, it's your problem now."

I think you would need a very detailed contact to cover all the contingencies.

Personally, I would just wait until the boat could be splashed before I started making offers. There is really no benefit to you to buying the boat now, and there really isn't any benefit to the owner either.

Barry


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

Hey Steve,

Is it the boat we talked about? Although it's slightly larger than the one you have now, you probably have a good grasp of the basics.

When we purchased our boat, I had a survey done, mechanical/engine inspection and sea trial. The three separate folks for each of those each missed quite a bit. If I were to do it over again, I would definitely spend more time on the sea trial. I would have found certain issues that plagued me this summer.

You have some options as mentioned;
1 - Conditional offer; Give a deposit and make your offer payable on a successful trial in the spring.
2 - Escrow/hold-back; Where there is a certain amount held back from the sale for use in repairing anything that is not as advertised.
3 - Negotiate down to incorporate the risk of things breaking.
4 - Hold off on that offer; Who, up here, is buying a boat at this time of year? He might sweat a little and reduce the price for spring.
5 - Ask the owner to splash the boat! It could cost a large sum, be a hassle and may be logistically impossible, you don't know until you ask. It's a long shot for sure.

I expect this owner is looking for a sale so he can use the proceeds for another project. Depending on his motivation to sell, it may limit you to option 3 or 4 instead of the mutually beneficial 1 or 2. Personally, unless this is a steal-of-a-deal, I'd hold off to check the plummeting costs in spring. Hell, I'll even help you bring one up from the USA if you find one.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

JordanH said:


> .... Personally, unless this is a steal-of-a-deal, I'd hold off to check the plummeting costs in spring. Hell, I'll even help you bring one up from the USA if you find one.


One buys the boat when one decide its the right boat for the right price, or you run the chance of someone else making the same decision that makes sense to you, and you end up still kicking tires in August. Sometimes the boat buying process gets confused with some kind of game...if your objective is to be sailing a boat you love next May, dont make it a game.

An asking price becomes much firmer in May, than it is in November, by more than the cost of six months of storage and insurance.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

smp said:


> I would rather just buy the boat once the survey checks out and call it a day (and stop wasting time on yachtworld every day).


Whoa.
Dude, neither a survey nor sea trial is a "get out of the deal" card.
When your offer is accepted, you have bought a boat. Sea trial and survey are simply tools of acceptance and verification that you bought what you think you bought.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

sailingfool said:


> if your objective is to be sailing a boat you love next May, dont make it a game.


No sir, not a game. My experience in SMP's area (and my own) is that pricing is cylical; In fall, pre-haulout, sellers lower their price because they don't want to pay winter storage feeds. Once again, in spring, there is an increase in boats for sale and lower prices before launch as sellers don't want to incur summer charges. It's not a matter of being a game, but being fiscally prudent.

The original boat we were discussing was more of a commodity boat around these parts - there's always a decent one for sale, so waiting isn't like you miss the opportunity of a lifetime. SMP currently has a nice Mirage 24 so even in the worst case scenario and any negotiated deal falls through, he's still out sailing when the weather warms in the spring.

Having said that, SMP and I spoke privately and this other boat looks like a beauty. Well worth looking to buy now and accepting some risk. Can't wait to sail on it next summer.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> Whoa.
> Dude, neither a survey nor sea trial is a "get out of the deal" card.


... but you CAN make it a condition of sale. Which, in effect, is a "get out of the deal card" as you put it. Depends on the wording of the contract.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

JordanH said:


> ... but you CAN make it a condition of sale. Which, in effect, is a "get out of the deal card" as you put it. Depends on the wording of the contract.


Sure, a sale is usually conditional upon satisfactory survey and sea trial, but the buyer risks the deposit, and unless something truly egregious shows up, it's NOT a walk away. A sea trial is definitely NOT a test drive to see if you like how a boat sails.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

I'll agree to disagree.

I'm not an expert, I've only purchased one boat. In my purchase, under good faith, we had conditions that survey, mechanical inspection and sea trial must all pass - pass/fail. I would not have lost my deposit if the boat hadn't lived up to the condition that the seller had described. Period.

I paid for a survey, paid a mechanical inspection and then paid someone to assist me with the sea trail. The seller knew I was not just "kicking the tyres" or taking it for a test drive. In fact, I helped him launch the boat and rig it - weeks prior to my actual purchase. Proper conditions in a contract can protect ALL of your money and should be willingly accepted if you show good faith.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Jordan, a boat sold privately,between two individuals with a short closing date is different from a broker-involved fall sale with a spring closing of a boat inspected on the hard. 
Let's look at it this way:
If I buy a boat from you today, conditional upon satisfactory sea trial in the spring, thereby effectively taking your boat off the market for 6-8 months, then after the survey and sea trial is done I say, "well, the engine compression is lower than i would like and it burns a little oil and the running rigging is in need of replacement by the end of the season, so I want out of the deal."...
Are you gonna give me my deposit back?


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> Jordan, a boat sold privately,between two individuals with a short closing date is different from a broker-involved fall sale with a spring closing of a boat inspected on the hard.
> Let's look at it this way:
> If I buy a boat from you today, conditional upon satisfactory sea trial in the spring, thereby effectively taking your boat off the market for 6-8 months, then after the survey and sea trial is done I say, "well, the engine compression is lower than i would like and it burns a little oil and the running rigging is in need of replacement by the end of the season, so I want out of the deal."...
> Are you gonna give me my deposit back?


The seller/buyer relationship, nor the time-frame involved are relevant.

In my case, I offered to purchase the boat early January, with a closing date of June. My offer to purchase had a line-by-line, itemized list of all items included and the condition they must be in. The offer to purchase also included proper deadline dates that the surveys must be completed by, and when the funds would be returned if the inspections did not meet the conditions - including deposit. I had made it clear that a rotten deck was a deal breaker during the sale. If it was found to have rotten spots when we checked in May, then you're correct, I would walk away with all of my money. If he had not returned my deposit, it would have gone to court and I would have won.

My clause was slightly modified, but it came from this:


> P5) This agreement is subject to the buyer's final inspection of the yacht/boat and payment in full by (date and time), and the buyer's ability to obtain suitable finance and insurance on or before (date and time). If any of these conditions cannot be satisfied the buyer may terminate this agreement and all monies paid shall be refunded without deduction within ten (10) days to the buyers address on this agreement.


Should these conditions not be met, my remedies would be to
a) live by the letter of the contract and walk away with my money
b) accept the boat conditionally and re-work the contract to have those items replaced/repaired
c) Accept the boat as-is. Usually only if the hassle of a) or b) is greater than the cost to resolve the issue.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

Further to the above, the following may be useful to people in Ontario.

What I learned was that you *MUST* include a reference to the Ontario Sales Act if you wish it to apply. And it is very important for it to apply. I used the following


> P13) 'The Sale of Goods Act conditions or warranties implied by Ontario law will apply' as part
> of the sales agreement.


This ensures that if you can prove the seller made claims about an item's condition then it is warranted by the seller and cannot be overriden in the contract. For example, if the seller e-mails you and says, "The engine runs like new!" and it shows up smoking with no compression, then the seller is on the hook to resolve the issue. Very important for protecting the buyer in Ontario.

Hope that helps someone down the road.


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

BLJones said Dude, neither a survey nor sea trial is a "get out of the deal" card.

Not at all true. If the boat doesnt check out, maybe a wet core, this is your out. You wouldnt buy a house if the inspection found termites, crumbling foundation and rotten structure. You can write your sales contract anyway you want provided it is agreeable to the seller.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I once walked after the survey/sea trial (same day) not because it found a specific deal killer, but because I did not like the amount of deferred maintenance we found. The seller was willing to fix it all, but I knew that many other systems that were currently operative were likely to fail prematurely, based upon the way she was apparently maintained.


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## smp (Jul 29, 2010)

Thanks for all the input folks. I've got a lot to think about and I'll be discussing this all with the broker. 

The other consideration with buying it now is that I have a Mirage 24 I'de like to sell by spring. That boat is actually a partnership and my partner recently let me know that if I buy another boat he likely won't use the Mirage much so we should probably sell it. So I'll have that to deal with over the winter and hopefully have it sold by spring. It's the sea trial that has me stumped. Like one of the posters mentioned, conditional on sea trial takes the boat off the market for 6 to 8 months. If it was my boat I would have reservations about that. I have never done a deal involving escrow so if anyone has anymore input on that topic please fill me in.
Thanks


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

smp said:


> ... I have never done a deal involving escrow so if anyone has anymore input on that topic please fill me in.
> Thanks


This subject has been well worked over in other threads, check them out. For example:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-buyers-sellers-forum/66125-money-held-after-sale.html

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...t-required-before-survey-allowed-typical.html

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/52581-sea-trial.html


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

smp said:


> conditional on sea trial takes the boat off the market for 6 to 8 months. If it was my boat I would have reservations about that.


You won't know until you ask. It may be a non-issue (as it was in my case) or they may be strapped for cash and need it ASAP.

As for escrow, I gave you the name of the fellow I worked with at that yacht broker. He was excellent and explained that he would ensure the broker handled any necessary work that needed to be done prior to transfer of the boat. They gave me the feeling I had added protection because they weren't going to pay the seller until the boat was in the expected condition - any repairs came from the proceeds of the sale. I suspect that broker you are dealing with already has an automatic escrow procedure.
disclaimer: My boat purchase was not through a broker, so I can't confirm/deny the broker above would have followed through on that promise.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I once walked after the survey/sea trial (same day) not because it found a specific deal killer, but because I did not like the amount of deferred maintenance we found. The seller was willing to fix it all, but I knew that many other systems that were currently operative were likely to fail prematurely, based upon the way she was apparently maintained.


Like what?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

smp said:


> Thanks for all the input folks. I've got a lot to think about and I'll be discussing this all with the broker.


I really don't see what to think about.
Buy the boat, sea-trial it and get on with your life.
Wear long underwear and a hat.

The only real angst is the cost of launching, hauling and re-winterizing.
Pay for it, insist on the seller paying for it, or split it. It's your offer.
Either that or don't bother looking at boats in the winter.

Other than the couple of perfect months in the spring where you can survey on land, launch and sea-trial and leave at your slip you have to deal with a quick haul which usually can be cheaper than a regular haul.

So never look at boats except in April.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

davidpm said:


> Like what?


Like, anything. Genset, main engine, winches, etc. It became clear that not much was taken care of very well, even though it was operating at the time.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

If you can do this down now, you have the advantage of being able to commission for the season before it's warm enough to sail. Wait for the weather to sea trial and you'll give up a least a month. I suspect that's a pretty good percent your season up there.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

delite said:


> BLJones said Dude, neither a survey nor sea trial is a "get out of the deal" card.
> 
> Not at all true. If the boat doesnt check out, maybe a wet core, this is your out. You wouldnt buy a house if the inspection found termites, crumbling foundation and rotten structure. You can write your sales contract anyway you want provided it is agreeable to the seller.


Read the post that follows, especially the " unless" and "egregious" part. A punky boat would fall into the egregious defect category in my book. My point was that the OP sounded like felt he hadn't really bought a boat until after survey and seatrial. Brokers and sellers tend to feel differently. Just as a house sale may be conditional upon home inspection, that doesn't mean the buyer can walk away if they decide they don't like the paint colour.

Wet core brings up a good point, though- unless the seller has specifically described the boat as "dry," who determines what amount of softness marks the line between a price adjustment and a deposit -returned walk-away?

Remember that there is a broker involved in the transaction in question- brokers like to use standardized boiler-plate forms, and in Ontario they are bound by legislation setting out what must be outlined/included in any contract of sale, so there are limits to what can and can't be included in a contract of sale and a conditional offer.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

bljones said:


> ........
> Wet core brings up a good point, though- unless the seller has specifically described the boat as "dry," who determines what amount of softness marks the line between a price adjustment and a deposit -returned walk-away?
> .


The standard YBAA broker form in the US has this provision:
"ACCEPTANCE OF THE YACHT: The BUYER shall notify the SELLING BROKER of his acceptance of the YACHT and inventory, or his rejection of same. Such notice which shall be in writing, shall be received no later than five o'clock p.m. local time on ___________________. If said notice has not been timely received, the BUYER shall be deemed to have rejected the YACHT..."
So the buyer can walk away from the deal prior to the acceptance date for any reason at all, including he doesn't like the color. The boat is rejected and the deal is dead, no reason required, unless he formally accepts the boat.

If there are issues from the survey (or he wants the color changed...) the buyer can put those on the table and negotiate, giving the seller the chance keep moving a deal that is otherwise simply dead.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Like, anything. Genset, main engine, winches, etc. It became clear that not much was taken care of very well, even though it was operating at the time.


What were you able to see on the trial that you couldn't have seen on the survey?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

The best I can figure in the deals I have been involved in is that the buyer holds all the cards. I was the forth party in a deal that involved a seller a very green buyer and a broker.

I was just an acquaintance of the buyer. The buyer signed something somehow talked the broker into accepting a fax of a check. Did the survey and sea trial. At the last possible moment the buyer literally decided he wanted a motorcycle more than a boat.

The broker had his signature and a photocopy of a check.
Nothing was done about it, litigation was not in anyone's best interest.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

davidpm said:


> The best I can figure in the deals I have been involved in is that the buyer holds all the cards. ......


IMHO The buyer may have a some cards, but the seller always has the trump card - that being full and complete knowledge of the boat, its history, its strengths and weaknesses. The buyer has at best partial knowledge, whether knowing much worth knowing, or being utterly clueless...whatever, the seller always KNOWs. If the buyer has hired a surveyor, a rigger, and an engine mechanic, he at best covers most big items,sort of, but how many buyers actually make that effort?

So the buyer can bring up a last minutes demand, extract a few thousands as a concession, and think he stole the boat. The seller leaves the closing table, with his face, thinking "man, if he only knew what I know...".


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

davidpm said:


> What were you able to see on the trial that you couldn't have seen on the survey?


Funny you ask. I was actually addressing a point made above that you've already bought the boat subject to very narrow testing in the survey. In my case, it wasn't specific flaws, it was the overall story that I didn't like.

However, on the sea trial, the owner sent his skipper along. He was out of the country. The skipper starts the genset and leaves it running while we are sailing. I then learn, while the elec winches are spinning at the dock, the batts are near death and won't last 5 mins.

That was a common solution on that boat. Don't fix it right, just get around the problem. There was even more wrong. Equip inventory was missing (noted during survey). Seller was willing to adjust price, but I had enough of the sloppiness. It was translating into how everything was dealt with.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

sailingfool said:


> The standard YBAA broker form in the US has this provision:
> "ACCEPTANCE OF THE YACHT: The BUYER shall notify the SELLING BROKER of his acceptance of the YACHT and inventory, or his rejection of same. Such notice which shall be in writing, shall be received no later than five o'clock p.m. local time on ___________________. If said notice has not been timely received, the BUYER shall be deemed to have rejected the YACHT..."
> So the buyer can walk away from the deal prior to the acceptance date for any reason at all, including he doesn't like the color. The boat is rejected and the deal is dead, no reason required, unless he formally accepts the boat.
> 
> If there are issues from the survey (or he wants the color changed...) the buyer can put those on the table and negotiate, giving the seller the chance keep moving a deal that is otherwise simply dead.


This is exactly the language that has been in the contracts I've signed.

A deposit is given to show good faith in doing the survey and either the broker or owner need to size up the buyer to make a judgement whether they think they are a good buyer.

I've personally had this discussion with both buyers and sellers of aircraft and boats...... "when you inspect her, I will stand behind her being maintained and in the condition I've represented and shown to you. However, she is not brand new and want to be sure you are not expecting her to be."

I've never had a problem with the inspection, although, I do take good care of things. Nevertheless, despite this understanding, the buyer does retain the ability to walk for any reason until the accept her post survey.


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## smp (Jul 29, 2010)

davidpm said:


> I really don't see what to think about.
> Buy the boat, sea-trial it and get on with your life.
> Wear long underwear and a hat.
> 
> ...


I resent the attitude but thanks for your input.

The boat is shrink wrapped, on the hard, winterized and the mast is down. It's not going in the water until spring. I am prepared to buy a boat right now. I have the money, there is a boat I like enough to spend said money on. And I am ok buying it without a sea trial now provided there is some hold back money to cover any major problems that may be discovered upon sea trial in the spring. The things I need to think about are:

- how the contract is written up
- which surveyor to hire
- how much money to put into escrow and on what conditions

I think those are considerations worth thinking about. If the survey checks out I'm buying the boat. And yes, while I'm new to this I didn't come here asking questions to give others an opportunity to try and make me feel like an ******* for being nervous about spending what to me is a lot of money. I'm a cautious first time buyer, there's nothing wrong with that.

To everyone else. Thank you, this thread has been very helpful. I spoke to the broker yesterday and I'm going in on Saturday to write up a contract and make an offer. Wish me luck.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

smp said:


> .. The things I need to think about are:
> 
> - how the contract is written up
> - which surveyor to hire
> ...


Go for it.

The broker will likely provide you this agreement:
http://www.integrityyachtsales.com/images/Blank_Sales_Agreement.pdf

You can add provisions to Section 7 for the escrow and seatrial.

I suggest allowing at least 6 weeks for acceptance, to be sure you can get the personnel you want to do the inspections. Get the best (usually the most expensive) surveyor you can, be willing to wait 4 weeks if he is busy...that is a very good sign. Get an engine mechanic and do the compression test. Depending on boat age, also hire a rigger.

Dont assume the boat is great and you are looking for a flaw or two...assume it is actually all trashed, until you verify anything different. After you sign the agreement is when you need to curb your enthusiasm...


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

smp said:


> I resent the attitude but thanks for your input.
> 
> The boat is shrink wrapped, on the hard, winterized and the mast is down. It's not going in the water until spring. I am prepared to buy a boat right now. I have the money, there is a boat I like enough to spend said money on. And I am ok buying it without a sea trial now provided there is some hold back money to cover any major problems that may be discovered upon sea trial in the spring. The things I need to think about are:
> 
> ...


BL can be rough sometimes, but he's often right and speaking from common-sense. Look past his tone to hear what he's saying.

My opinion is, the more money you're spending, the more vital a survey and sea-trial are. You say that you're spending a lot of money, and that the boat is really cocooned up for a long winter's nap, precluding a sea trial. I think you're emotionally involved and should let the boat go. Odds are, it'll be there in the spring. If it is, make an offer closer to Launch Day (whenever that is in your area).

I bought my boat for very little money, so I skipped the survey and sea trial because I bought the boat outright, and wasn't taking a huge, financial risk. If I were shopping for a boat in the 5-digit price range, I'd be hiring a surveyor, a rigger, a marine mechanic and insisting on a sea trial. A serious seller would position his boat for these trials.

The fact that he's made his boat virtually unaccessible rings alarm bells to me.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

BubbleheadMd said:


> .... and that the boat is really cocooned up for a long winter's nap, precluding a sea trial. ...The fact that he's made his boat virtually unaccessible rings alarm bells to me.


Your alarm bell has its senesitivity setting too high. In my area, its a rare boat (one owned by a uncaring owner) that is not "cocooned up for along winter's nap".


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SMP, did we ever hear what make, model and year your new boat is looking to be?

If you survey her while wrapped up, you will likely get a survey with a ton of disclaimers. You wont even know if she leaks. If that is okay with you, it's your call. 

Let us know if the seller agrees to the escrow. Thats going to be tough, I think. The seller has to consider that they already gave you title, but still need to negotiate. what if the rudder post leaks, or stuffing box leaks too much, or auto pilot doesn't work, or engine won't make max rpm under load, or all of the above. Even the sails are hard to assess on land and could be somewhat subjective. Will you even have enough escrow?

Around here in the winter, it is typical that a buyer pays to launch and then rewinterize. It's expensive, but much less than finding a big problem after taking title.

Best wishes.


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## smp (Jul 29, 2010)

It's a good deal on a clean boat and I would rather not attract any attention to it until I either close the deal or pass on it. The boat was for sale before the fall so it was in the water but I passed on it then because my price target was lower. Since then I've re-evaluated my thinking and what I want to buy now is a boat I can keep a long time. This boat looks like it. 

The seller is not hiding anything buy caccooning the boat. It's winter. If anything, I'm happy that it's shrink wrapped. All the boats I've looked at thus far that were for sale by owner were NOT covered and an uncovered boat in winter is not a good thing up here. Most of those sellers admitted to not covering the boat during winter, it was evident by the condition.

As mentioned. I checked out the boat. I'm not a surveyor but I have read Don Casey's books and came armed with a moisture meter. It's the driest boat I've looked at to date and it's also the biggest and most expensive. It's evident to me that the owner took care of her. The only upgrades done that I could see were an upgraded blue sea electrical panel. The sails are older though I have not seen them yet, I do not expect to get a boat with new sails or a diesel for what I am hoping to pay. It's a C&C. That's all I'm willing to say right now 

The boat has no crazing or cracks on deck, it's the first time I've seen this on a C&C of this vintage. The interior even smells nice, well, maybe not "nice" but not terrible like the rest of the boats I've looked at. Original cushions, original motor, what appear to be original gauges.... but everything is clean and looks well taken care of. The hull is smooth, the gelcoat is not faded. All signs point to a well taken care of boat. However, no upgrades. No fancy chartplotters or electronics. Just a bimini and dodger. Very vanilla boat.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Minnewaska said:


> .... You wont even know if she leaks. If that is okay with you, it's your call.
> 
> Let us know if the seller agrees to the escrow. Thats going to be tough, I think. The seller has to consider that they already gave you title, but still need to negotiate. ....


If a boat has a material leak, the resulting damage really cant be hid.

As to the escrow, that is totally SOP, especially for a broker. I have been a buyer or a seller ten times and six of the sales involved an escrow.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> If you survey her while wrapped up, you will likely get a survey with a ton of disclaimers. You wont even know if she leaks. If that is okay with you, it's your call.
> 
> Let us know if the seller agrees to the escrow. Thats going to be tough, I think. The seller has to consider that they already gave you title, but still need to negotiate. what if the rudder post leaks, or stuffing box leaks too much, or auto pilot doesn't work, or engine won't make max rpm under load, or all of the above. Even the sails are hard to assess on land and could be somewhat subjective. Will you even have enough escrow?
> 
> Around here in the winter, it is typical that a buyer pays to launch and then rewinterize. It's expensive, but much less than finding a big problem after taking title.


Hi Minnewaska,
We have a few things about our area that might be of interest to future buyers.
1) As I posted above, our Ontario laws have an implied warranty that can't be overridden in the contract (assuming you mention that the Act applies). Therefore, if there is a leak where the seller has said "it is a dry boat", then he has legal recourse if something drastic should be found later.

2) My very limited experience has found that the escrow thing is common when using the boat broker up here. Each time I spoke to a broker they told me that if anything was not in the condition as stated they would ensure it was fixed before delivery and that it would be paid for out of the proceeds of the sale. This is similar to an escrow arrangement so it shouldn't be out of normal for these parts.

3) It would be very rare up here to splash the boat up here. Most marina's are jammed to the teets so the boats become inaccessible by crane during winter storage. If it's at a yacht club, it is impossible since the crane's are only brought in twice - fall & spring. Obviously it is better to splash the boat before purchase, but for the price of *this* boat it would not be financially reasonable at this time.

SMP seems to be taking the same steps I would if I were in his shoes and the boat pics look great.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JordanH said:


> ....SMP seems to be taking the same steps I would if I were in his shoes and the boat pics look great.


Woah. When did we see pics?

More power to your process up north. Sounds tough, but I'm sure you make it work.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

smp said:


> .......I do not expect to get a boat with new sails or a diesel for what I am hoping to pay. It's a C&C. That's all I'm willing to say right now  .....


I wish you the best with your new boat. I hope works out well.

My inquiry as to which boat we're talking about wasn't a "mine is bigger than yours question". If she is a less complicated boat, it does change the dynamics of the sea trial dramatically. You called it your first "big boat". I understand that's relative.

I have a neighbor with a 45 ft Swan that was denied a slip once because they didn't accept "small boats".


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Woah. When did we see pics?
> 
> More power to your process up north. Sounds tough, but I'm sure you make it work.


I know Steve personally and have seen the pictures of a number of boats he's looking at. I don't think he's linked to them here though.

Sailing here has advantages and disadvantages. Winter makes sure we all get a haul and dry out with lots of time to work on bottoms and so-on, but it also means a logistical challenge of trying to pack all the floating cottages on dry land... in a big city where waterfront square footage is at a premium. Tough for us to get in and out between October and April.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

You're just sailing on the wrong lake. 
smp, it sounds like you have a solid handle on the process.


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## smp (Jul 29, 2010)

bljones said:


> You're just sailing on the wrong lake.
> smp, it sounds like you have a solid handle on the process.


Only thanks to all the valuable feedback courtesy of the board 
And Jordan, of course!

It's a 30'ish footer.


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## smp (Jul 29, 2010)

bljones said:


> You're just sailing on the wrong lake.
> smp, it sounds like you have a solid handle on the process.


Hey! You're from Ontario! What can you tell me about taxes when buying a boat? I've got two sample contracts on hand, one specifies that the seller is responsible for taxes, the other that the buyer is. What tax and who is this paid to and how?! I'm guessing HST .. $$$


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

You can negotiate who pays taxes but I believe the broker must (or should) collect them or submit them on your behalf etc.

You should flip through the Transport Canada website:
Pleasure Craft Licence - Transport Canada

Pre-2007, Ontario did the boat licensing. However, the Federal government has taken it over. Every boat with more than a 10hp engine needs to be registered or licensed; Since mine is less than 10hp, I didn't have to go through the process but in both cases you must prove that you've paid taxes. I believe the broker must collect this on behalf of the sale or arrange that it is done... I can't remember now.

Don't forget to transfer the boat licence within 90 days as well.

For the American readers, our terminology is different.
Canadian boat licence is similar to US boat registration.
Canadian boat registration is similar to US boat documentation.
I believe I have that correct but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: I forgot to mention that taxes are still paid to the province. http://www.rev.gov.on.ca/en/taxtips/hst/12.html Technically, it's not HST but it's 13% RST.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

The broker can collect on the behalf of the buyer, or the buyer can remit directly- who is handling the registration transfer? Often, just as a matter of courtesy, unless otherwise specified, if the broker is handling the registry transfer then he will also remit tax at time of transfer. However if you are handling transfer yourself, you will also be responsible for the tax yourself.


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## Grand River Raider (Jul 19, 2011)

*In the same boat as smp*

Just stumbled upon this thread and read it with great interest. I posed the same question about sea trial on a winter boat offer to a broker recently and his response to me was, "why do you need a sea trial?" He claimed all the important testing of the boat could be done on land including on the engine and pointed out how unfair it would be to tie up the seller's boat for the entire winter. I understand this last point, but as others here have pointed out the seller does not have to accept the offer. It certainly appeared he was looking out for the interest of the seller and perhaps his own.

I'm still unclear on escrow. Money is set aside for the sea trial to deal with any problems with the boat or its systems discovered on that trial? So we are talking about the seller putting money in escrow for these issues?


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

Grand River Raider said:


> It certainly appeared he was looking out for the interest of the seller and perhaps his own.
> 
> I'm still unclear on escrow. Money is set aside for the sea trial to deal with any problems with the boat or its systems discovered on that trial? So we are talking about the seller putting money in escrow for these issues?


Yes, the boat broker is working on behalf of the seller and is only obligated to them. Unless, of course, you agree to pay the commission instead of the seller.

As for the escrow, lets say the boat is $50,000. You pay the broker $50,000; The broker pays the seller $40,000 and retains $10,000. If the boat is found wanting upon launch then the broker would use the $10,000 to fix/repair/make-ready the boat. Lets say $5,000 worth of parts and service. The broker then hands the boat over to you and you sign off in spring, and then broker then hands over the remaining $5,000 to the seller. It's a way for the seller to get SOME cash upfront so that he's not left wondering if he's made the sale or not.

Don't fall for the "how unfair it would be to tie up the seller's boat for the entire winter" line. If the seller doesn't want to tie up the boat, he can reject your offer to purchase and continue trying to sell and you can continue to look at other options for the winter. I think you'll find that most boat sellers prefer the "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" mentality - a quick glance at Yacht World will quickly humble him into realizing you have more options and he will be fighting in a sea of boats for sale.


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## Grand River Raider (Jul 19, 2011)

JordanH said:


> Yes, the boat broker is working on behalf of the seller and is only obligated to them. Unless, of course, you agree to pay the commission instead of the seller.
> 
> As for the escrow, lets say the boat is $50,000. You pay the broker $50,000; The broker pays the seller $40,000 and retains $10,000. If the boat is found wanting upon launch then the broker would use the $10,000 to fix/repair/make-ready the boat. Lets say $5,000 worth of parts and service. The broker then hands the boat over to you and you sign off in spring, and then broker then hands over the remaining $5,000 to the seller. It's a way for the seller to get SOME cash upfront so that he's not left wondering if he's made the sale or not.
> 
> Don't fall for the "how unfair it would be to tie up the seller's boat for the entire winter" line. If the seller doesn't want to tie up the boat, he can reject your offer to purchase and continue trying to sell and you can continue to look at other options for the winter. I think you'll find that most boat sellers prefer the "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" mentality - a quick glance at Yacht World will quickly humble him into realizing you have more options and he will be fighting in a sea of boats for sale.


That explanation was helpful. And I take it that the process is the same whether you pay the seller cash out of pocket or finance the boat? I know sailingfool mentioned a typical amount for escrow is $5,000, but is this a point of negotiation as well? I'd hate to see the cost of any repairs exceed the amount in escrow.

By the way Jordan, how is the Contessa working out?


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

Hi GRR,
I would expect the financing doesn't impact the seller.

I don't know what is typical as far as dollar value, but everything is negotiable. However, the amount should cover the risk of something being off. For example, a new engine for my boat is likely $6,500 and when I bought my boat the engine had just been rebuilt; there was a large risk that the repairs were ineffective. If I had chosen an escrow value, I would have requested at least that much be kept back + whatever else I felt there was a risk of failing. (In my case, I simply left him about 5% deposit and paid the rest due in spring after we had launched and passed the trials and checks - this replaced the need for escrow)

I don't want to hijack SMP's thread, but the Contessa is working out very well. We had some great adventures on it this summer... it would take me a large thread to catch you up.  Right now, I'm missing being on it as I'm watching the first snowfall of the year.


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## Grand River Raider (Jul 19, 2011)

Yes, sorry, I do not mean to take over smp's thread either. Glad to hear the Contessa worked out well.

Smp, good luck with the winter purchase. Let us know how it worked out.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Grand River Raider said:


> .....He claimed all the important testing of the boat could be done on land including on the engine and pointed out how unfair it would be to tie up the seller's boat for the entire winter. I understand this last point, but as others here have pointed out the seller does not have to accept the offer. ...


And he probably wont. What you are asking the seller, is to hold the boat for you all winter, then you can decide after its launched whether you want to buy it. Of course, if you can decide to back out then, you can also decide to renegotiate a lower price, after all, the seller has now waited 4or 5 months, the season has started, and the boat has been off the market. He has no cards, you have them all. If a seller does not see what a setup such an arrangement would be, you can bet the broker does...thus he/she will advise the seller as to the common sense of requiring a purchase decision, or the buyer takes the chance to come back in the spring.


Grand River Raider said:


> 'm still unclear on escrow. Money is set aside for the sea trial to deal with any problems with the boat or its systems discovered on that trial? So we are talking about the seller putting money in escrow for these issues?...


The money does not deal with ANY problems, but only any problems not subject to testing on the hard. For example, difficulty starting the engine due to low compression would not be covered, whereas, overheating at cruising speed would...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I could swear I read a post from the OP that he got the deal done and wanted some input on some discrepancies. Was I dreaming?


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

It's like everything else in that relevance comes into play. In essence, if you're talking about a somewhat expensive boat, negotiating a deal to include "x" amount of dollars to be held in escrow subject to sea trial is not asking for that much. Just keep in mind the percentages. In other words, I'd be very surprised if you're buying a 30k boat and asking for 10k to be put into escrow for 6 months, that's probably asking a lot and your chances of seller refusal would increase. I'm of the vein that 10-15% of the selling price is usually fair. On the other hand, if you're buying a 10k boat, asking for 5k in sea-trial escrow is definitely a lop-sided deal to the buyer's favor and within reason for seller to say "no". Like sailingfool has mentioned, however, you're escrowing monies to cover those things you simply can't inspect without being on the water. You aren't going to be able to ask for a repair to a system that failed over the winter, if you've inspected it to be working the day you sign the deal. Don't forget, but in 6 months time of hard winter, a lot of different things can come up. The escrow is best looked at as a "warranty" of sorts, that covers issues, again, that can only be detected at sea trial. You've still bought the boat and the seller has sold it regardless of what happens in June.


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## Grand River Raider (Jul 19, 2011)

*Well...not quite.*



Minnewaska said:


> I could swear I read a post from the OP that he got the deal done and wanted some input on some discrepancies. Was I dreaming?


He was willing to go forward with no sea trial and buy the boat if the survey checked out. The discrepancies had to do with elements of the contract. And we were getting some hints on a boat that was under wraps, both to protect it from harsh Canadian weather and from potential poachers of what is apparently a nice clean boat. C&C and 30ish ft range. I think we are still awaiting word on the outcome.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

smp said:


> I resent the attitude but thanks for your input.
> 
> The boat is shrink wrapped, on the hard, winterized and the mast is down. It's not going in the water until spring. I am prepared to buy a boat right now.


I was expressing the idea that you do have choices. Just because the stick is down and the boat is winterized it can be put back in the water and sea trialed.
Then you can choose to winter in the water with just the engine re-winterized, if that is allowed at your yard, or haul again and re-winterize it. This idea does not have to be off the table it is just a calculation based on cost vs a clean quick deal. It is possible you could get away with reducing your offer by the relaunch cost and the buyer would accept it to get a clean deal with no hold back.
Of course I'm going by custom hear in New England where some percentage of boats are kept in the water all winter. Maybe in your town it is not done.

I apologize if my words caused offense none was meant, It's obviously your money, and decision, it was just an idea. 
Good luck with whatever you choose to do and please keep us posted.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Grand River Raider said:


> He was willing to go forward with no sea trial and buy the boat if the survey checked out. The discrepancies had to do with elements of the contract. And we were getting some hints on a boat that was under wraps, both to protect it from harsh Canadian weather and from potential poachers of what is apparently a nice clean boat. C&C and 30ish ft range. I think we are still awaiting word on the outcome.


I am certain that the OP posted another message that they deleted a few hours later, which said they had a deal and negotiated an escrow. I recall him identifying the exact boat and escrow amount, but won't repeat it in the event it is a problem with a poacher. It also asked about a couple of things from the survey that I didn't have time to reply to, but went back and the post was gone.

I hope something didn't go wrong.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

sailingfool said:


> Your alarm bell has its senesitivity setting too high. In my area, its a rare boat (one owned by a uncaring owner) that is not "cocooned up for along winter's nap".


I think perhaps I wasn't clear, and I also disagree with your second sentence.

Although hauling out for the winter, and covering the boat represents the ultimate precaution against winter damage, wintering with the boat in the water does not automatically indicate an uncaring owner. TReilly(sp?) winters in the water in Maine, is a liveaboard, and maintains his boat to what appears to be very high standards.

I winter in the water, and I take great care to maintain the boat. I visit daily, or more. I never let snow or ice accumulate on the deck or cockpit. I inspect all deck fittings for bedding integrity on a regular basis. I run an ice-eater to keep the water liquid around the hull.

The seller of OP's boat of interest has essentially taken his boat off of the market for the winter, because a sea trial is unlikely to be undertaken. If he was serious about selling the boat, he'd winter in the water, and take all due precautions against freeze damage while keeping the boat accessible.

It sounds like the seller isn't in a great hurry to sell and may not care if/how fast it sells. If so, then I understand his choice to seal up the boat, but the seller shouldn't be surprised if a potential buyer says "I'd like to buy your boat, but I'm not doing it without a sea trial."


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

In the Northport area for example a winter sea trail would be unlikely as land is so tight there might be 40 or 50 boats blocking the one you have interest in and depending on the time of year the motor would have to be freeze protected THAT day after the test 

There is only one yard that stores mast up and there is still the blocked by other boats issue


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Bubble. While I agree that a boat can be well cared for and stored on her hull, doing so in Maryland is quite different than Canada. Even Maine's coastline has to be more temperate than inland freshwater.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Bubble. While I agree that a boat can be well cared for and stored on her hull, doing so in Maryland is quite different than Canada. Even Maine's coastline has to be more temperate than inland freshwater.


I suppose.

That makes snapping up those winter bargains more difficult though. You either roll the dice with just a survey, or you wait until Spring, (and it's attendent price increases) to do the sea trial and end up paying more.

I realize that the Chesapeake seems much more temperate than Maine and Canada, but we do get our severe freezes here as well. For instance, a 40 foot ice floe nearly ripped this lighthouse from its foundation and is now permanently tipped about 15 degrees:

Sharps Island Light


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## Grand River Raider (Jul 19, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> I am certain that the OP posted another message that they deleted a few hours later, which said they had a deal and negotiated an escrow. I recall him identifying the exact boat and escrow amount, but won't repeat it in the event it is a problem with a poacher. It also asked about a couple of things from the survey that I didn't have time to reply to, but went back and the post was gone.
> 
> I hope something didn't go wrong.


Ahh...well, being that I was late arriving to this thread, I must have missed that transient post. He certainly appeared ready to move on the boat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I suppose.
> 
> That makes snapping up those winter bargains more difficult though. You either roll the dice with just a survey, or you wait until Spring, (and it's attendent price increases) to do the sea trial and end up paying more.
> 
> ...


Your winter of '09-'10 had a few 100 year snow storms too. Overall, however, you have about 3 months less of it than we do. I can only imagine Canada.


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## Grand River Raider (Jul 19, 2011)

*Not to pile on....*



Minnewaska said:


> Bubble. While I agree that a boat can be well cared for and stored on her hull, doing so in Maryland is quite different than Canada. Even Maine's coastline has to be more temperate than inland freshwater.


I have to second this sentiment. Having spent the better part of 40 years enduring Great Lakes winters in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Ohio, they are very cold and often very snowy (amounts by inches often in the triple digits for the season) depending on where you are positioned vis-a-vis the nearest great lake. As a young boy living near the St. Clair River north of Detroit, we used to watch the freighters go by on their way between Lake Huron and Lake Erie. Those who tried to push on through November and beyond often found themselves stuck in the ice and needing an ice breaker to get them free.

Here on the southern shore of Lake Erie, the boats are almost all on the hard by now. Last Saturday, I drove along the shore and there was one lone sailboat bobbing along near the breakwall. It appeared he had all of Lake Erie to himself. And a great day to sail it was too...sunny, breezy and 55 degrees. But that is thing here, it just as easily could have been 25 degrees with a foot of snow.

It definitely limits the boat buying (and sailing season here) and I can relate to the OP's challenge as I'm looking for my first boat too and dealing with the same challenges. Others have suggested not buying a boat in Maryland or the Northeast because of the salt water, but there are significant potential tradeoffs to buying the boat here too.

The OP was willing to forgo the sea trial...let's hope that works out for him.


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## Grand River Raider (Jul 19, 2011)

*And then there's the air temperature*



Minnewaska said:


> Your winter of '09-'10 had a few 100 year snow storms too. Overall, however, you have about 3 months less of it than we do. I can only imagine Canada.


I'm not staring at NOAA data right now, but I can tell you there is a difference in air temperature and the experience of it even between Cleveland where I live now and in North Central Wisconsin where I lived for a while. The air "up north" feels bitter and almost thick against your face. It begins stinging exposed skin within a matter of minutes if not seconds depending on the temp. And yes, it is even colder further north in Canada.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Grand River Raider said:


> And yes, it is even colder further north in Canada.


And yet, most of us who live in Canada live southeast of Wisconsin. The north shores of Lake Erie and Ontario are positively balmy compared to Wisconsin and the UP and Minnesota.


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## Grand River Raider (Jul 19, 2011)

*Balmy Cleveland Winters*



bljones said:


> And yet, most of us who live in Canada live southeast of Wisconsin. The north shores of Lake Erie and Ontario are positively balmy compared to Wisconsin and the UP and Minnesota.


And thus more similar to Cleveland relative to Wisconsin, where winters are cold, but usually not bitter. Frankly, I think people pull their boats too early here...some even as soon as early October. That appears especially true this Fall as we have had some very mild weather. But it can differ a good bit from year to year.

I don't think the marinas here allow people to keep their boats in over the entire winter. Most have deadlines to have the boat out of the water.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Grand River Raider said:


> And thus more similar to Cleveland....


Uh, no.

Nowhere is like Cleveland.


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## Grand River Raider (Jul 19, 2011)

bljones said:


> Uh, no.
> 
> Nowhere is like Cleveland.


Wow, not sure of the reason for the put down, but that is not my problem.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

You could view it as a put down, or view it as an expression of the uniqueness of Cleveland, home of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The choice was yours. You decided it was a put down. Don't make your problem my problem.


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## Grand River Raider (Jul 19, 2011)

bljones said:


> You could view it as a put down, or view it as an expression of the uniqueness of Cleveland, home of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The choice was yours. You decided it was a put down. Don't make your problem my problem.


And since it was your statement you had a chance to clarify, but did not. Your love for Cleveland and the Rock Hall is noted.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I suppose.
> 
> That makes snapping up those winter bargains more difficult though. You either roll the dice with just a survey, or you wait until Spring, (and it's attendent price increases) to do the sea trial and end up paying more.
> 
> I realize that the Chesapeake seems much more temperate than Maine and Canada, but we do get our severe freezes here as well. For instance, a 40 foot ice floe nearly ripped this lighthouse from its foundation and is now permanently tipped about 15 degrees:


Hi BubbleheadMd.
Not "I suppose", that is the case up here. Almost all boats are bubble wrapped or tarped. It is rare to find a good boat that is not. I should go take a picture of some local clubs to post. There are a *few* people that leave their boats in the "water" (ice) over the winter but they require bubblers and so-on because they do freeze in.
As mentioned previously, land is so tight that it is a jigsaw puzzle to maximize every inch at the yacht clubs and the marinas pack them in as tightly as they can to maximize dollar/sq.ft - once in, there's no leaving early. Come spring time, it's First-in, Last-out.

Toronto and more specifically the Toronto shoreline is very moderate. We don't get a tremendous amount of snow but when we do, it's a huge volume. The tarps/bubblewrap keep the snow off the decks because the water from the freeze/thaw cycles can rip apart a boat or seep into deck cores etc. It's no comparison to Maine or ocean - you guys have different challenges, but up here, to cover your boat is the norm.

All of this being that SMP was correct and it was near impossible to launch/haul and hence the whole point of this discussion... to wait for a sea trial in spring or take the risk now. Puts the strategy I spoke of above (buy before fall or before spring) into perspective since people don't usually buy mid-winter or mid-summer.

Anyway, SMP posted about his boat; I'm thinking it was a double post and then accidentally deleted. I would guess he didn't want to retype. I think it's safe to say that he's signed the deal for a C&C32 - although he hasn't told everyone yet, he's told a few of us and posted here. It's a good clean boat and he's got some money in escrow in case there are things wrong with rigging, sails or engine.


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## smp (Jul 29, 2010)

Whoa .. I didn't realize this thread would see so much activity.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. 
I did indeed buy the boat!








There's money set aside in escrow and a written agreement that should cover me if anything is amiss with the engine or other systems which can only be checked to satisfaction with the boat in the water. I feel pretty good about it. I got a good price and the boat is clean. The surveyor told me I was getting a good deal and that's nice to hear. He verified my own testing of the deck and it's sound as a pound, as is the hull, the keel .. the boat is clean. Minimal crazing, if any worth mentioning at all. This winter or spring I want to replace the entire head and holding tank. One problem with this boat is that it has a stainless steel holding tank and from everything I've read on here and elsewhere, that's bad news. One cylinder in the motor has lower compression than the rest. Putting some oil in the cylinder and then trying again did not yield higher results, so it's probably not the rings. It's likely a stuck valve as seems to be common with the A4 and if it's not resolved with a good hard run in the spring and some seafoam it'll get a valve job and the escrow money will cover that. Yes, I'm taking a chance, there could be other problems, transmission you name it. At some point though you have to trust the seller and he's been good on everything else. I'm happy with the purchase and it means that I can focus on selling my other boat before the spring and tackling some projects over the winter (like the head). Some other hoses need replacement, exhaust, fuel fill, fuel line ... that stuff should be easy to take care of before the boat goes into the water.
Again, thanks for all the feedback!
She is a 1980 C&C 32, hull # 59.

As a side note, I scored a pair of Barient 28s off of Kijiji (more popular than craigslist here in Canada), the deal was, well it was a steal. They are in great shape, I don't know whether to keep them as spares (the C&C has Barient 27 self tailers) or clean them up and sell them. I could certainly use the money for other boat stuff. What are they worth?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Here's wishing you fair winds and best of luck with her.


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## PolarisOne (Dec 26, 2006)

Add Content


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

smp said:


> I did indeed buy the boat!
> 
> ...
> 
> As a side note, I scored a pair of Barient 28s off of Kijiji (more popular than craigslist here in Canada), the deal was, well it was a steal. They are in great shape, I don't know whether to keep them as spares (the C&C has Barient 27 self tailers) or clean them up and sell them. I could certainly use the money for other boat stuff. What are they worth?


Congrats!

Regarding the winches, you might want to keep them if you plan to add gear for a symmetrical spinnaker. I don't see secondary winches on the cockpit coaming in that photo, though not everybody rigs it that way. Or you might decide that there'd be a good use for them on the cabintop. Can't hurt to have more pulling power. If you are happy with what you paid for them, I'd keep them.


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## smp (Jul 29, 2010)

I've seen winches like these with asking prices over $500 a piece. I don't expect to get that much for them but hey, I have a whole lot of spending to do on the boat so money is good. They are oversized for spinnaker winches and they definitely won't fit as secondaries on the coaming. I think they would look funny on the cabin top as well. The only reason I would keep them for the boat is if the 27s give up the ghost and need replacing. They are really pretty though, I almost want to keep them as ornaments or something. They each weight like 40 pounds or so and they're solid stainless.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I like old boat stuff as much as the next guy, however, Barient winches aren't exactly ornaments IMHO. If you have no use for them, they have value and I would covert them into something you will use. Parts are tough for you current winches, but you can probably keep them going for a long time. Maybe pull the drum and take a look first. If you think the installed winches are more worn, swap them now and sell the 27s. That may be easier said then done.


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## smp (Jul 29, 2010)

I went for my first sail on Friday night. I think I'm the happiest guy in the world


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## Grand River Raider (Jul 19, 2011)

smp said:


> I went for my first sail on Friday night. I think I'm the happiest guy in the world


Congratulations on your first sail on your new boat!

I share your joy as I just bought a C&C 32 myself. Great boat!

Fair winds for the new season.

GRR


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

Fantastic Steve.

My boat is still on the hard at Uli's. I'm itching to go out, let me know if you need crew any time over the next 2 weeks.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Good luck with your new boat SMP.

Make sure you join the C&C owners website.
C&C Yachts - C&C Photo Album & Resource Center

Good to see another happy C&C owner.

Dave


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