# Contemplating a huge mistake...?



## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

Hey everyone,

So I'm thinking about possibly(probably/most definitely) making a (potentially) huge mistake..Or maybe, the best decision of my life. Part of this question (which I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to, but I'd like to hear other opinions), will have some philosophy mixed in. 

I've been planning to purchase a large sailboat (>50') to retire on. Ideally, I'm thinking of making FL to the Bahamas runs, seasonally. I had originally thought I would do this in stages, buy a small boat first (30' or so), bum around on that for a number of years, and then around retirement age, upgrade to the final "dream" liveaboard boat.

I have recently, however, found my "dream" boat while searching for my smaller boat, and now I'm starting to think that perhaps, wasting money on the smaller boat is kind of silly (when I could be applying that the ultimate boat I eventually wanted anyways)? 

A bit about me, I'm not close to retirement age yet (mid 40's, wasn't planning on retiring till late 50's), and my sailing experience is moderate (but don't worry, I'm not going to ask how long it takes to sail to hawaii... ha ha). While my "master plan" included using the years between now and then to continue stockpiling cash for the boat, I do have the means now to acquire the "final" boat, but of course, not without liquidating some stuff at a cost.


Here's the philosophical part of the discussion, that I'd love to get some opinions on. I've been following a lot of younger people who decided to take the left-hand path, and just buy a small boat and travel around the world. Some had no sailing experience at all. It didn't stop them from just jumping in, and it's highly motivating, giving me pause to rethink my path (Do people have mid-life sailing crises? ha ha).

In following their adventures, I'm really starting to wonder why I think I should wait until I retire to do this. They didn't, and they seem to be living the life they want, vs the one I've been "programmed" to follow. 

There would be advantages to me cashing out early, and just going for it.. one, I'd get to my end goal of owning my final boat quicker, (and I wouldn't pass the opportunity to get my "dream" boat at a good price) I wouldn't have wasted x amount on the "starter" boat, and two, I'd have more of my youth/health to enjoy/handle the tougher/more physical aspects of the sailing lifestyle. 

Some obvious negatives, one, lack of experience piloting a larger boat (although I would treat the larger boat with a healthy amount of respect and keep my travels short whilst getting up to speed on it), two, taking a financial hit liquidating some resources, three, "lifestyle shock" of moving into a liveaboard a lot quicker than expected, four through 1000, things I can't think of yet...

I'm pretty sure that the level-headed folk out there will tell me to forget this idea and stay the course (get the small boat, then later one upgrade)...and yes, that would be sound advice.

I'm curious if there are any adventurous souls out there who would throw (some) caution to the wind and just go for it? 

Or if this the worst idea in the history of man (next to the chia-pet)? It might be the whack I need to get my head on straight (hearing it from you fine folk), but there's voice that's telling me to go for the endgame, as life is short and one shouldn't wait.

Too bad I can't make this a poll question.

Jump into the deep end and get your dreamboat now, or later? 
Thanks!
~Nick


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## drew1711 (May 22, 2004)

Buy a boat appropriate for the kind of sailing you will actually be doing and not that you envision yourself doing. 

The ownership cost of the 50-footer will be exponentially higher than the 30-footer. 

If you don't have much experience with boats, be very, very careful in this endeavor. And welcome to Sailnet.


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## dwedeking (Jan 28, 2007)

As I'm in a similar position I don't have the answers for you but at least you'll know someone out there can relate. 

I'm currently living on my 41' Ketch while I finish up my career and work out the issues of the boat (which are many, but known). I'm not really thrilled with my job and like you watching those younger people making the leap (some with success) has me questioning my plan to stick out the career for another 5 or so years and finish up the boat work. I've determined that for me I'll keep working on the boat until they let me go, but when that happens I'll take off for at least a period of a few years, and either come up with a way to supplement the cruising kitty or come back to the states and restock the kitty with a simple job. 

50' is a little large for me to singlehand, I feel more comfortable with the 41' and it has enough space for 2 and my toys.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

The grass is always greener on the other side of the hill. The problem is that the greener grass has to mowed more often. If you don't mind mowing the grass it's not a problem.
Seems as though everything about boats involves some type of compromise. If you wait till retirement age you run the risk of having physical limitations that can really hinder your plans. Ask me how I know. No I'm not the one with the limitations but my wife is. You don't mention in your post whether you have a significant other to share this adventure with, if you do, that's a whole different ball game. One of my doc mates took an early retirement, bought a 50 plus foot boat and went on an extended cruise of 3 -4 years. After the cruise they (it was a couple) sold that boat and bought a smaller boat and went back to work and has since retired from the second career. From the conversations I've had with them regarding their adventure, I gather that they wouldn't trade the experience for anything. He was fortunate enough to have a career field that enabled him to enter the work force after a hiatus without too much trouble. That helps. Plus he was a seasoned sailor before he ever bought the boat so he had a good idea of what he was in for. If you want a philosophical answer it's this : It's the the things that you didn't do that you regret most when the grim reaper is calling.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

Thanks for the food for thoughts so far.

Drew:
That's an interesting point. However, in some other lifestyles, in order to obtain the lifestyle you want to live, you have to aim high, or often you'll never hit it. If you settle for aiming for the middle, that's quite possibly all you'll ever achieve. I have no interest in shooting for the middle anymore, I've done enough of that in my life already. I'm in no way discounting your opinion though, it is a smart one. 


Dwedeking:
Yes, it is interesting to contemplate, and I hear you. I should have mentioned I wasn't planning on soloin' the 50' by myself, that's pretty nuts, unless you're superman..ha ha.. but I'm really taking a hard look at the do-it-now vs. wait-till-I'm-older arguments. It's hard to decide.


Contrarian: 
Thanks, yes, I did forget to include that info, so let me correct that. No, I won't be having a wife along on this adventure. I will, however, enlist the help of my stepdad, who is an expert sailor (spent his whole life on the water pretty much) and will be leaning heavily on him while I get my skills up to where they need to be. I also would plan on outfitting the boat to be as self-sufficient as possible for short-handed sailing, so yes, that will up the cost a bit. 


Great stuff people, I appreciate the input.!


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## wallythacker (Jun 10, 2018)

I had a great reply typed and it vaporized. Oh well, it went like this,

"Don't put off until tomorrow what you can do today."

A very smart guy said that. And he's right.


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## chicory83 (Dec 21, 2009)

I suggest the question that you should ask yourself is do you really want to be sailing a 50 ft vessel today? Unless the answer is a firm yes, then I think it would be unwise to spend the money to buy this vessel. Boats do not appreciate in value. Just to give you an example, I bought my first cruising boat 10 years ago and she has depreciated by about $25 k since then, even though I have maintained her well. You are talking about liquidating assets at a loss to buy an asset that will not hold its value long before you need it. That does not make much sense to me even before you start considering the added maintenance, docking and storage fees. If you are going to start living aboard now, and plan to cruise her extensively before you retire, it might make sense. If you are just going to day sail her from the dock, there is no good reason to own a boat that size. Another thing to consider is availability of crew. Will you consistently have adequate crew to sail a 50 ft vessel as you learn to manage her? All the sails on this vessel are going to be significantly more powerful and require more strength to manage than the sails on a 30 ft boat. Are the people who might crew for you willing to take the risk of sailing with an inexperienced captain on a vessel this size and will they be fit enough to grind the winches? No offense, but I would be nervous going sailing with you on a 50 footer in a way that I would not on a 30 footer. If you couldn't find a crew, do you think you could single hand and solo dock a 50 foot boat or would you be stuck at the dock?


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Is it possible for you to live on thisndream boat while still working? Is it possible to negotiate something less than a 2,080 hour work year?


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## RustyPelican (Mar 31, 2015)

Have you chartered a boat near that size or maybe in the 40s to see what it's like. might help your decision...

Dave


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## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

Count me on the slightly conservative side of this dilemma. First, the "dream boat" that you currently have the opportunity to purchase, 99.9999% of the time, is in reality simply the dream boat that is available right now; there are VERY few missed opportunities in boating, but rather a TON of boats for sale constantly as the majority of those who attempt to live their dreams find out that their dreams aren't so dreamy. I doubt very much you're looking at a "once-in-a-lifetime" opportunity to own your dream boat. 

Heed the advice of those speaking to the exponentially greater expenses involved with owning and maintaining a larger boat than needed for your current sailing "mission." It's a LOT more fun to sail something you can handle relatively stress-free physically, financially, and competency-related.

You can get a 26-30' boat in decent comfortable condition for under $10K.. some, MUCH under that. Buy one, enjoy it, go for some two or three-week (or longer) cruises, get a better idea of what you REALLY want/need down the road, and keep putting money in the bank. You'll still be sailing, you'll be feeding the "dream," and in another couple years (maybe less, maybe more, maybe not ever.. who knows), you'll know for sure exactly what you want, and can get the most for your increasingly capitalized buck then.

I'm 57, and married 36 years. Got bit by the sailing bug seven years ago, and bought our first boat (26' Pearson) after crewing in a white sail race at a local sailing club once. It has been NOTHING like I thought it would be, a much larger pain in the butt than I ever imagined it would be, and even more joyful than I thought too. My original goals and thoughts seven years ago were very, VERY far from the reality we've lived with the boat. Notice I said "our first boat." To date, it's still our only boat, and it continues to meet our current needs and skill levels. However... the future is still wide open, and owning a cheap boat that's helped me learn a LOT about all things sailing-related (especially how to fix boats) has kept the future open wider than it would have been if we had just taken the plunge and bought a boat that stressed us financially. Now, we can afford pretty much any boat we want. However, right now.. we are still happy with our '72 Pearson!

Just some thoughts. Welcome, and fair winds.


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## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

My two cents:

1.) you are right to lean towards going sooner rather than later, but make sure you have as well thought out a plan as possible.

2.) don’t start with a 50 foot boat. You’ll end up hurting yourself, the boat or someone else or their boat. Or all of those. You’ll go broke trying to maintain it. You’ll regret not buying a more reasonable sized first boat.

3. Don’t get too hung up on what you see other people doing. Remember they only publicize the fun and glamorous stuff. Cruising is a mixture of fun, confusion, hard work, sublime joy, and abject terror.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Go for it. I personally think a 50 footer is a bit big. I like the versitility of a 40 footer. But still, go for it!!


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

To me the answer is "depends". How are you planning to handle the financial obligations of a 50' boat, sailing, docking, and retirement? You can buy a boat today but what happens if you or your wife suddenly are discovered to have some medical condition that requires extensive treatment? What will you do once you are physically unable to live on a boat? I know there are plenty on here who push the "do it now" button but I took the other path. I started a company which is successful, invested the profits in rental property (which I still have to take care of), and built a very nice paid for house on a small lake. I have a small sailboat and enjoy sailing when I am in the Caribbean on vacation but I am still working. Hopefully I will retire in two years with over seven figures in the bank and no payments, plus the income from selling my company. I contemplated buying a sailboat big enough to live on at least part time (like a vacation home) but given the attitudes displayed by a lot of the denizens here I am rethinking that plan and may purchase a motorhome instead. 

Good luck in whatever you do, if you are industrious, smart, and not slothful you will probably find ways to at least meet your daily living expenses.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

With an aversion to a regular job, I built a 57' oa ketch cruised and lived aboard for 40 years , made some good money chartering, bought houses .At 70 I was happily amazing the ladies on board, climbingtherigging and down the forestay. At 71 I was dead in a railway station in Bangkok. .Survived but it took a lot of the joy out of boat maintenance. Hard to make definite plans for the long haul so dithering too long has it's own way of solving the dilemma.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I would work the other way:
When are you going to die? 
This can be reasonably well defined now with a CAC Score test. Coronary Artery Calcium Scoring can detetmain your real risk of death by Any reason (all cause mortality) regardless of risk from smoking, fat-blubber-ass-syndrome, diabetes, family coronary and cancer history, etc. 

After you get your score you increase it by 20% per year untill you see when you're gunna die.

Then decide which boat to buy now. 

I made my decision 11 years ago, before CAC testing was invented. My dad died at 65... So I retired at 48.
But now I find my CAC is 9, which means I can't die of heart desease or stroke, don't have diabetes, I could go back to work. 
But **** that, I am enjoying myself! :grin


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> To me the answer is "depends". How are you planning to handle the financial obligations of a 50' boat, sailing, docking, and retirement?


This is the key object for me. Can I handle the cost of the bigger boat for now? Yes I can but at what cost, what other sacrifices would I have to make to care and feed a 40+ foot boat. It is likely I won't be in a position to cruise long term for about 5 years or more. That does not keep me from internet shopping for that big boat, dreaming of owning it.

In practicality I will probably buy a 35-ish footer to satisfy my needs till then. A well maintained, well equipped older boat. For the coastal cruising I plan in the mean time I don't need all the extra space, bathrooms and equipment i want for long term cruising. As long as the economy does not tank, I should get most of the purchase price of the 35 footer back when ready to sell. Then I get to start over with a new larger boat. I figure it would take a year or more to get a big boat ready to cruise long term.


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## dwedeking (Jan 28, 2007)

Before purchasing my first boat I contemplated buying a smaller boat, keeping my apartment, and just day sailing around the St Johns River while I saved up for the purchase a my "sail away" boat. This interim type of plan didn't fit with my personality nor the style of my "dream" so I nixed it. 

The second decision was whether to wait and buy a boat in near-ready-to-go condition or buy a boat sooner that needed more work but would allow me to work on it. The savings of a slip vs my rent and the fact that I wanted to live on the water made this an easy decision - for me. My first boat was a 36' project boat. The first two months I was still in my lease at the apartment and I came to realize that I had made the correct decision about not getting an interim boat. Living one place and having the boat across town was a pain, and didn't give me the water-based lifestyle I wanted. 

My second boat is also a project, that will be complete next year. I'll then have the option to leaving right away or if the job is still tolerable adding to the cruising kitty and leaving in 2025. While I won't be able to come back to the same industry (things change rapidly in the digital marketing field) I have complete confidence that I will be able to get some employment if needed in the future, and since I live small I don't need to make a large salary. 

Just how I'm doing it, everyone has different risk tolerance, needs/requirements/wants to lifestyle, and capabilities.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I went cruising at age 43 and was 'out' for 7 years. Best decision I ever made. After another 10 years working to build the pension pot I retired again and at age 70 I am still cruising. I had no dependents which made the decision easier. 

So go for it. 

My first boat was a 38 ft ketch. I am currently on a lightweight 44 ft cutter. I WOULD NOT WANT A 50 FT BOAT EVEN IF CAME FREE WITH A BAG OF GOLD.

At 50 ft lots of things on board require serious strength. EG if you have a full batten mainsail it will require at least 2 people to fit or remove. I would want a 60 - 75 lb anchor and 1/2 inch chain. Again you will need a power windless. Yes people do manage but it is better to have something you can handle without power systems IMHO. SOmewhere between 35 and 44 ft is good. 

If you are fixated on a bigger boat do yourself a favor and buy a well maintained Amel. Old Henri knew a thing or two about speccing a cruising boat. They are not the prettiest of boats but are tough and designed to be handled by a small crew. But anytime a system goes down you will be sat in port somewhere waiting to get it fixed.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I think buying a 50 footer with no prior sailing experience is a huge mistake that you’ll regret. Just the idea that you’ll be able to single hand it, or be able to always find volunteer crew, shows that you don’t have a clear picture of what you’re getting into. You don’t know enough to recognize what you don’t know. 

Why not have both a job and a boat now? Keep working and buy a trailer sailor to play with, and take vacations on a lake to build your skills. (That’s what I did first.) Or buy a 25-30 footer that you can singlehand easily, with plenty of room to do weekend or week-long cruises by yourself or with one other (that’s what I did next). Then you’ll build the skills to charter larger boats to see what they’re like. 

You can do all this without quitting your job. Unless you’re a millionaire, quitting your job and buying a 50 footer as your first boat is a great way to go broke fast. 

FYI, insurers are unlikely to write you a policy (which you’ll need for any marina) on a first boat that’s over 30’. Or, they’ll attach an endorsement that requires you to hire a professional captain every time you take the boat out. 

That giant sucking sound you hear is your bank account quickly shrinking.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Try to decide what you want to do without any influence from the internet. Don't watch those youtube vids or read the blogs, don't read the sailing forums, stay away from travel websites about the sailing destinations. Try to figure out what you want to do, not what others have done and talked about online.

It's interesting that Rocky Mountain Breeze above seems to be considering a motorhome instead of a sailboat based on the attitudes of some "denizens" here, which is just about the silliest thing I have ever read.

At one time in the not too distant past, people had to figure out how to live full and interesting lives without the internet influencing their major life goals one way or the other.

Personally, I use the internet a ton, but I try to use it as a resource to plan and do the things _I_ want to do, instead of letting it tell me what to do.

Finally, no regrets ever. Make a decision, make a plan, revise if and as necessary, but never look back.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

My experience... not entirely analogous... but there is something to take from it.

I sort of stumbled my way into purchase of my first boat... the one I still have at 38 after getting "inspired" by what one person in the right boat can do.... sail anywhere. I was going to be a partner on a 48' boat but when that fell through I bought Shiva and began the learning curve.

First I got divorced and without kids I was leaving no parenting obligations. Second both my parents passed within a few years after I bought the boat. No old parents needed care and attention. An inspiration of sorts was my father who essentially worked until he died... no lay about retirements for a life of hard work. He got cheated.

I didn't know what boat to buy... I tried to learn from books... no www in 1985 to speak of. The 36s seemed very large to me... large enough for the possessions I would need and then some. It turned out to be a great choice. I didn't have to "fix" anything but I did have to upgrade the coastal cruiser for live aboard and offshore passages... and actually learn that boat and how she behaves. This took me about 5 years. I was quite smitten and immersed in the idea. 

I entered the 91 Marion Bermuda race not to race... but to do a couple of ocean passages to see how the boat and I was offshore. After passing this test, I was prepared to dispose of my possessions... store some and sail south from NY.

I believed I could resume a career as my skills were somewhat portable - architect. But I wasn't thinking of work. That would come after my savings were bottoming out. 4 years offshore tens of thousands of miles... incredible experiences. I returned, met my present wife and we continue to sail coastal on Shiva. The boat is almost perfect for us. Perhaps a full stand up aft cabin with a double berth... But the rest of the interior is fine for us for some extended cruises.

I can't see the point of a much larger boat... except longer LWL and faster passages. But everything is much more expensive.. from paint to mooring, to fuel and sails... I might shave 15-20% off my passages... Is it worth it? More stowage? Not really needed as we are not living aboard.

If someone offered to swap a 45' boat for my 36' I would probably decline. Of course the 36s is an exceptionally intelligent design. I've see plenty of similar size boats that do not compare. I was lucky... but I spent 5 years "getting in shape" for the task.. me and the boat.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

Sooo much good stuff in this thread, I'm really glad I asked it. The more I read this thread, the more I realize I didn't give enough information.

The boat I'm considering is a Gulfstar 50 Motorsailer. It has had massive upgrades done to it by the previous owner, so most all boat functions can be done from the pilothouse. My plan would be for the crew of two (myself and my stepdad) to mostly motor, and occasionally sail. The reality is we'd probably motor from place to place (small trips when the weather is right) and then sit on the hook for months at a time, enjoying life. 

After buying it outright, to offset some of the maintenance costs of the boat, I was thinking about chartering it for those times I'm not using it, and then when I'm ready to move on to it, then I would charter it less.

hpeer:
Yes, and Yes. I'm a full-stack developer, so really, I can work anywhere I've got an internet connection. Ideally, I'd find more work in bigger cities, but as I'm thinking about a major lifestyle shift, I can get by on less.

Wallythacker:
I couldn't agree more, which is why I'm contemplating a major lifestyle shift. Carp Diem.


chicory83:
Very true, however the same can be said for cars, and that doesn't stop people from buying expensive cars, even knowing full well they'll lose 20% of their value the minute they leave the lot. I understand your points, and yes, I would be considering moving on to it and starting my "retirement" early. 


RustyPelican:
I have not, however that is an excellent idea, I will put that on my to-do list.


bblument:
Hmm, a good point. I hadn't considered that. I suppose I incorrectly assumed that boats being more scarce than cars, one wouldn't want to let the right one get away. I hear what you're saying. It's sound advice.

More to follow...

thanks again everyone, it's fantastic food for thought.


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## thelibrarian (May 3, 2018)

If you have the money to do that and keep money coming in to maintain. You don't know any ones situation or if they're as happy as they seem especially in the social media world. You post pictures of your fancy dinners and accomplishments. They may be trust fund kids. How do you make millions of dollars racing boats? Start out as a billionaire. Then idk how much experience you have... I don't have much but from the looks of the accomodations shower and head it amounts to living in an RV albeit one on the water. I figure I'll need a million dollar boat to be happy living on it (well for the wife to be happy) and have a shower, room and stuff comparable to an on land apartment. 

Also have to ask yourself why this 50'er is the same price as much smaller boats. Is there any similarly old smaller boat comparatively priced and condition. I was surprised to see a 20 yr old Catalina 25 for the same price as a brand new dinghy but right away storage, marinas, maintenance and transportation if trailering adds up quick. Tons of 85' cruisers for the price of a dinghy and people sail them though I'd be nervous and not expect much more life out of them.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

Dwede:
I have to agree with you, I'm not so sure the "interim" boat would be a match for my lifestyle and/or dreams of my future as well. 


MarkSeaOfLife:
That is a fascinating perspective. Never thought of calculating my expiration date.  I love this forum. Never a dull moment.  I applaud the fact that you decided to retire at 48. I'm wondering if I could do the same thing. Sure it wouldn't be the same path if I waited till 65, but honestly, if my CAC score tells me I'm going to be dead at 70 (just tossin' a number out there), then why the f**k am I wasting what valuable time I have left chained to a desk working for someone else? It's kind of a dumb way to spend the rest of one's life and I've done far too much of it. 


TakeFive:
That's true, hence why I'm flushing out this idea with some more expert opinions. I'm a fairly level-headed person, and I'm not about to make a rash decision based on little to no information. In part though, it's this kind of thinking that has guided my relatively safe (read conservative and boring) lifestyle I've lead so far. I definitely think it's time to stop existing and actually start living.


Caberg:
I hear ya, and if I gave off the impression that I watched a few youtube videos and "suddenly" decided that I want to sail away into the sunset, then I apologize, that was not my intent. Like yourself, I use the net for research purposes, but it does *not* guide me 100%, nor am I trying to live out anyone else's lifestyle. I'm pulling wisdom from various sources, to make a sound (or semi-sound) decision on what ultimately I will do.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I have one very simple question for you.
How do you know this *is* your 'dream' boat if you've never lived aboard or cruised?
Almost everybody takes at least three tries to get the right boat. The more you learn, the more your needs overshadow your desire for the boat. Some folks buy a boat because it's just beautiful to them, but totally unsuitable for their needs. 
My first boat, which I bought to circumnavigate on, was a Phil Rhodes ocean racer, a real TrandsPac boat! What a ludacris ocean cruiser! 22 bags of sails, including 3 chutes? rotflmao Well not really.


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## bblument (Oct 22, 2012)

loxxSail2 said:


> Dwede:
> ... but honestly, if my CAC score tells me I'm going to be dead at 70 (just tossin' a number out there), then why the f**k am I wasting what valuable time I have left chained to a desk working for someone else? It's kind of a dumb way to spend the rest of one's life and I've done far too much of it. .....


Not to get too philosophical or to come off sounding at all judgemental, but there are all KINDS of reasons to spend one's life working for someone else, even if it is chained to a desk. It's not a dumb way to spend one's life at all if, by doing so, you are helping others. The thing holding me back the most, second only to the fact that my wife isn't interested in moving onto a boat full time, from really going whole hog into sailing and cruising full time, is that I'm not sure I could reconcile not being available to my father, my grown children, my close friends some of whom are suffering terrible illnesses and challenges, and just in general not being what I've been raised to believe is a productive and helpful member of society. Before anyone jumps all over me for judging THEM as being selfish for cruising full time.. I am NOT doing that. I'm voicing my own personal hangups about it. Those are the reasons I worked a job I wasn't particularly happy in for 31 years, and I wouldn't change a thing about it. Doesn't make it dumb.. just makes it a choice some of us make and feel good about.

If my wife was interested in living aboard for more than a few weeks at a time and I could figure out how to live with myself, I'd be circumnavigating yesterday. We're all different.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

bblument said:


> Not to get too philosophical


...Please do, that's one of many points to this thread. Exploring all aspects of this idea, practical, and philosophical. 



bblument said:


> but there are all KINDS of reasons to spend one's life working for someone else, even if it is chained to a desk. It's not a dumb way to spend one's life at all if, by doing so, you are helping others.


Apologies. I was in no way attempting to be judgemental. If anything, perhaps I was a bit too vocally expressing my own frustrations at being a slave to the system for far too many years.. and in the end all I've done is help other corporations get richer, while pretty much getting the shaft.

Yes, we are all different, and every circumstance is unique. I respect yours and your decisions, so please don't take any of my comments as negative. :wink


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

capta said:


> I have one very simple question for you.
> How do you know this *is* your 'dream' boat if you've never lived aboard or cruised?


Capta, that is an absolutely excellent point. The short answer is I don't. I suppose I'm basing it off several criteria (needs, wants, goals) and what I *think* those needs/wants/goals are, but yes, you are 100% correct. My initial assumptions about what I need/think/want are probably completely incorrect, based on not enough actual liveaboard experience.



capta said:


> Almost everybody takes at least three tries to get the right boat. The more you learn, the more your needs overshadow your desire for the boat. Some folks buy a boat because it's just beautiful to them, but totally unsuitable for their needs.


...Ouch. That says volumes about the difficulties with selecting/picking a boat suitable for one's needs. I will definitely heed this advice.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

My initial fear of spending a chunk of money on a smaller boat (25' - 30') is that it will feel quite cramped, and if I'm trying to turn it into a liveaboard situation in the very near future, would find it to be less than optimal. I suppose I'm also kinda ruined, as my parents had a gulfstar 47 as a kid, and that thing was amazing... comfortable, safe, stable, secure.. pretty much everything on my checklist for my own boat... 

I looked at a N30 the other day.. it felt like a shoebox compared to the GS47, so it's hard to get adjusted to that..which prompted me into thinking, well hell, if I'm going to end up on a bigger boat eventually anyway, why limit myself now?

That being said, thanks to the massive amount of fantastic opinions and advice, I think I will temper my desire to "swing for the fences" a bit and downgrade into something smaller, say something in the 35-42 range, hang on to the assets/job and see how it goes. If it goes well and proves itself to be the lifestyle I want and not feel "too cramped" download below, then I can upgrade later I suppose.

A thousand thanks to everyone who's chimed in on this. Your stories have been amazing. Thanks for sharing them. 

Fair winds..


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Good detail, if you grew up with a Gulfstar 47, a Gulfstar 50 probably isn't that big of a boat for you. I have a buddy that lives with his wife and kid on a Gulfstar 43, they seem comfortable and they have been doing it for years.

Boat ownership and employment do not need to be mutually exclusive activities. A Gulfstar 50 would make a pretty comfortable live aboard while you continued to work, if you wanted to.

I am in my early 40s retirement is still at least 10 years off, likely more but I still do get to do a lot of sailing because I make it a priority. I stopped working Mondays entirely so that every week end is a long week end. Plus I like to take leaves of absences whenever to opportunity presents itself. I took a couple years off about 7 years ago and I am taking a year off right now, we have a bunch of different things planned including several months of cruising, maybe more, we are torn between cruising the Florida Keys and renting a beach house in Bocas Del Toro. Odds are Panama is going to win that debate.

For us we have gone with a trailer sailor, but that has absolutely nothing to do with learning to sail or maintain and not even much to do with money, we do trailer sailor because we can be any where in North America in a week, so it really extends our cruising radius. Plus, big boats suck where I live. 

I think part time chartering that boat could be a regulatory and insurance head ache. Something like Air B&B while at dock or anchor has a lot less red tape.


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## Caribbeachbum (Feb 23, 2014)

My wife paid a local artist to do a sculpture last year. It's just the word "now" in hammered metal, tarted up all pretty. It hangs over her desk. We are a couple of months away from what we both agree we should have done years ago.

Go now. If you have enough money, go now. If you don't have enough money, go simple, cheap, and go now, as we wish we had.

This is not original thought on my part, but it's a philosophy we have adopted; and we are going.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I don't know if this had been discussed... but I toss it out. Going off and sailing, leaving it behind has an element of selfishness to it. If your journey is at no one's expense the selfishness harms no one at all. But people who take off and leave friends and family behind can be "hurting" others who have emotional or financial or some other form of dependence on you. Parents don't leave their children to go off and have an adventure. They don't even do it for a night at the theater... they get someone to watch their children. Even your employer or business associates may have a "need" for you which can of course be replaced by another hiree who has to be trained and so on.

People who take young children off on a multiyear sailing adventure also have to consider that the children will leaving their friends behind. Of course they will have a new and hopefully rich experience at sea. But it is a change for them and they may not be able to make the sort of informed decision that an adult does. Kids have different needs than adults.. wanderlust is not one of them. This is not to say that sailing with kids is a bad thing. But would the parents no go if their child resisted and wanted to stay with their friends, school, cousins and grand parents?

So many people wait until they've paid their dues so to speak, saved some money and given a lot of thought to what they want to do by sailing off. Late in life departures still involve complicated "severings"... and if one had elderly parents it could be easily be perceived as selfish. Depends.

But of course any time in your life the severing is complex and each life and period comes with a unique set of issues to work through. And who knows you may find after several years of living afloat that you miss some things you left behind. I did. I missed museums, live performances... culture, my old friends, varied cuisine I left behind in NYC. A life of extended vacation became not as thrilling as I thought it would be. But that also depends on what your life afloat is ? Are you going to tick off one place after the next for years on end or settle down in some tropical paradise well off the grid and far from the rat race?

++++

I wonder how many sailors who cut the lines decide after some years out cruising the world that that itch was scratched and a new one emerges... back on land? Don't forget, life on dirt has more "support systems" for seniors and living on a boat becomes increasingly challenging for you in your sunset years.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

This is sounding more and more like a classic mid-life crisis. Perhaps OP should be seeking out a mentor or someone who knows him in real life for advice that considers the big picture of his life. We can give advice on sailing, boat maintenance, and expenses, but that may not be getting at the heart of the matter.


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## Attikos (May 26, 2018)

I had a similar plan. I was going to get a trailerable sailboat, use it for a few years, then graduate to a midsized cruiser and eventually to a passagemaker. I found a real deal on a 34-foot sloop that had a good solo setup, a spacious & comfortable cabin, and very low usage, so I forewent the trailerable and leaped straight to the midsize. I've had it two years now.

The first thing I'd like to say is that having one involves a learning curve. No one who takes that plunge has a good idea what he's getting into. Having a cruiser especially an older one (mine is going on twenty years) is a lot, emphasize A LOT, of work and not a small amount of expense. The hours you have to put into it are far beyond anything you imagine going in. You discover things that need doing all the time, from plumbing to lines to paint to fuel system to electrics to just about everything. You (oh, all right, I) didn't know how to dismantle, clean and lubricate a winch, what's needed in the way of regular bottom cleaning, how to get ready for a hurricane, or anything else about keeping one. You spend time and money on books, you make new friends in boating and take them out for drinks so you can learn something of their knowledge, you join online sailing rooms and start reading and posting, you learn to tie new knots, to navigate, to follow the rules of the road, to splice lines. It all takes more time than you ever thought possible.

So, unless you have the time and a good deal of cash reserve to cover the unanticipated costs, go small. Once in, you're going to be surprised by what it takes to do it.

All that said, I'm glad I did it. Frankly, it's something I wish I'd done thirty years ago. The project would be that much further ahead today. Still, as a freelance writer, I can work anywhere as long as I can get an Internet connection now and then, so I have the time. I'm also a DIY fanatic, so the costs are kept under control, essentially by trading more of my time for savings.

My advice, then, is to survey your resources, balance the tradeoffs, and decide what you want and can afford to do. It's your life. Don't wait until you're too old, but don't be a Pollyanna now, either.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Attikos said:


> I had a similar plan. I was going to get a trailerable sailboat, use it for a few years, then graduate to a midsized cruiser and eventually to a passagemaker. I found a real deal on a 34-foot sloop that had a good solo setup, a spacious & comfortable cabin, and very low usage, so I forewent the trailerable and leaped straight to the midsize. I've had it two years now.
> .......
> 
> My advice, then, is to survey your resources, balance the tradeoffs, and decide what you want and can afford to do. It's your life. Don't wait until you're too old, but don't be a Pollyanna now, either.


So how do you feel about the size boat? Are you ready and needing a larger one? How much larger for a "passage maker" would you say now having lived with this boat?

excellent post BTW. Sober and sensible.


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## Attikos (May 26, 2018)

SanderO said:


> So how do you feel about the size boat? Are you ready and needing a larger one? How much larger for a "passage maker" would you say now having lived with this boat?
> 
> excellent post BTW. Sober and sensible.


Son of Sequoyah, I intend, will be the midforties, perhaps fifty. That's large enough to make for comfortable longrange cruising, but not so big it'd run me ragged keeping it up. By then I hope to have my own home dock to tie up to as well, so marina expense will be a thing of the past.

Or so goes the plan. My timeframe is, with a distinct lack of imagination, a five-year one.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Attikos said:


> Son of Sequoyah, I intend, will be the midforties, perhaps fifty. That's large enough to make for comfortable longrange cruising, but not so big it'd run me ragged keeping it up. By then I hope to have my own home dock to tie up to as well, so marina expense will be a thing of the past.
> 
> Or so goes the plan. My timeframe is, with a distinct lack of imagination, a five-year one.


Having cruised for 3 decades on my Contest 36 and often thinking about a bigger boat I have come to realize that it's a lot more work and effort and expense for a bit more "luxury" and space. We have a nice apartment with a living room... We never use it or rarely... so we pay for the space, the furniture and a place to hang some paintings and in the end we spend our time in bed, in the home office and of course the kitchen.

I'd love to downsize my digs but that too is a huge undertaking. I've begun by giving away clothing I don't wear that fills closets and drawers. More space... more junk you get to fill it up and likely don't need or use and when you need it you have a helluva time finding it.

Smaller is beautiful


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## Attikos (May 26, 2018)

SanderO said:


> Having cruised for 3 decades on my Contest 36 and often thinking about a bigger boat I have come to realize that it's a lot more work and effort and expense for a bit more "luxury" and space. We have a nice apartment with a living room... We never use it or rarely... so we pay for the space, the furniture and a place to hang some paintings and in the end we spend our time in bed, in the home office and of course the kitchen.
> 
> I'd love to downsize my digs but that too is a huge undertaking. I've begun by giving away clothing I don't wear that fills closets and drawers. More space... more junk you get to fill it up and likely don't need or use and when you need it you have a helluva time finding it.
> 
> Smaller is beautiful


For now, I have to keep the house my late wife and I had. There are compelling personal reasons for that, but they won't last too much longer. 3,000 feet on three quarters of a suburban acre is way too much for a widower and a Labrador retriever, but I have to admit I'm accustomed to some elbow room.

One of my sailing friends cruised the Atlantic and Mediterranean in a Pearson 38. I know it's not only possible but practical, at least for one. When I get out into the watery world, though, we will be two for dinner. Something at least ten feet longer than my current Hunter 340 would, I think at least at this point, be a good deal more enjoyable.

Maybe I'll change my mind with more experience. It sure happens. We'll see.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Attikos said:


> Maybe I'll change my mind with more experience. It sure happens. We'll see.


Stay flexible... change is good, but one pays a price in $$ and time. When I am asleep the size of my bedroom matters not... all I need is a bed which is comfortable and give me room to "roam".

YES to a good working galley... VERY important and one that works in a seaway.
Two people don't need much real estate to have a meal.

Boats are smaller than houses.... the person who sails 50+ foot boat usually has or had a large sprawling home or apartment. We have a tendency to go large because we can. The worst part of large is the maintenance that goes with it... time and money... house or boat. If money is no object... or a small one... pay for what you need. But that is not a self sufficient lifestyle... you become beholden dependent on and to your "staff".


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

As you have never lived aboard or cruised for an extended period. I STRONGLY recommend you buy something that is easy to resell if you don't like it or get bored/scared/seasick etc and go out for a year.

A Catalina 30 is easy to handle, has a good interior layout and it is easy to find one in good nick for under 20k.

They will make the crossing to the Bahamas and you will meet many other cruisers out there.

BTW making ANY sort of income from offering skippered charters on a small scale is very tough sledding and you would be in a very competitive market. I know several couples who work their socks off doing it and just scrape buy. An excellent and charismatic island built schooner called Jambalya has gone through at least three sets of owners who tried this. It is up for sale again. https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2002/Custom-73ft-Staysail-Schooner-3183188/St.-Vincent-%26-the-Grenadines#.WzzjTNVKiM8


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Good discussion. This post may seem too esoteric but here goes. 

You will get a lot of differening opinions here and many are reflective of their owners. Note: the following are just observations with no value judgement as to what is right or best approach. You have to figure out what works for you and your personality. 

One one side is a thoughtful very planned out personality who is “ Safe” before taking a step. A very good trait. On the other hand you will get advice from some who are absolute creative seat of the pants thinkers. They usually follow a pre prescribed path however are not confined by it. They tend to be trailblazers, willing to take risks at being wrong, and live lives in different manner. They make mistakes and view that as a fork to go back and head in a different direction. They tend to refine their path while they involved in it rather than plan it all out ahead. There is no right or wrong here and usually people are combos of these traits, though they really favor on of them . 


Take5 ... takes a very measured disciplined approach to things... reasearches things in great detail before making a step. Sets are very disciplined plan in place and then works the plan analyzing it it great detail along the way. Perfects before moving on. I know him a little personally therefore I would venture to say it has led to his success as a father, in his career , and also in what he pursues in his sailing experiences. Since I have known him he has gone from a lake small boat sailor to a mid size keel boat sailor. Also has increased his intellectual boating skill by obtain a formal lisence. I would travel anywhere with him knowing he has thought it out in advanced and looked as as many permutations as he could think of. In terms of dropping everything and going on an 
Seat of the pants adventure for weeks, months, years I would be this is out of his comfort zone, though he can intellectualize and figure out pitfalls and solutions. His “career” choice follows his personality . I tend to be a lot like him , probably one of the reasons we understand each other well, and even “ listen” to each other’s opinions. It’s easy when you are alike. 

That being said the first part of my career was a chef for 25 years. The ultimate in a free thinking not necessarily following a preset order of doing things culinarily. If I had to do that, I would never have advanced in my career. Acting on freethinking requires a different mindset. Many decisions will not work out. But when they don’t you just adjust it and have confidence you’ll take a different route and refine your approach. You can live your life without worry as that’s your personality. While you weigh risks vs rewards you don’t “need” to find a “correct “ answer to move forward, you don’t feel uncomfortable living in a deciding as you go mode. 
These people are inventive, and in sailing more likely to just “ head out” on a long term cruising adventure without following conventions of others. 
It doesn’t make them wrong. It doesn’t make them anti societal. It “fits” their personalities. Early in my life I could very easily gone the route as SanderO did of just cruising and exploring. My profession gave me that fix. However I would not have been able to cruise for 4 years as the money from me working was just to good to forgo

In the second part of my careers after being a left side thinker for 25 years, I became an administrator of large groups of restaurants. I supreme policy follower, a planner to the nth degree. Measured metric steps before making decisions. The complete opposite of my previous life job. It required a “huge “ adjustments for me. My sailing approach was different. Racing gave me the quick seat of pants decisions and adjustments, course a daughter, marige changed things too. 

I was lucky as the second boat I bought which I now have owned for over 20 years was a racing / cruising boat. The first years I owned her (Haleakula) she raced a lot. Now she is set up as a cruiser able to handle a three to four we vacation. 

Now in my sailing life I am more of a planner. I have no wish, to cruise for longer than three months at a time . I have no wish to sell my belongings and move aboard a boat. Those who do that more power to them for following their dream. IMHO that in itself does not make them better sailors. Some get many more nm under their belts and have the freedom of movement I will never have. Their approach to sailing is different. They are more concerned with long sustainable systems on their boats. You often see it reflected in their posts. To me it’s only annoying when they ignore an OP posting about their specific boat and type of sailing and impose the cruising style on them. ( a recent thread is a prime example - an OP with a 337 Bene was asking about advantages of a fueling in mast main to its disadvantages. He didn’t have a 50 foot boat , and he was asking were there really advantages to having the in mast main. He clearly won’t need electric winches. He clearly is weekend sailing, not cruising in the trade winds. Some of the posters just clearly ignored his requirements and felt a need to post their own. ) if we truly are using our advanced years of sailing I think answering his thread for what he wants is the best way to go. That would be truly helpful to him. That’s why he asked. 

In this OP case, I think he should determine what type of boat, plan best suits his own needs and wishes. If he wants to buy a 40-50 footer from jump street and that doesn’t bother him, so be it. It may not be what risk adversive I would do, but then again I am a cautious sailor now....maybe overly cautious. The OP should understand that the advice he gets from MANY experienced sailors on here whether they be cruisers or weekend warriors and coastal cruisers are all advices from their perspectives. Also he should know like SanderO , Take5 and I that just like life, our sailing profiles have changed over the years. What is the plan now , may change due to life ( marriage, kids, money , injuries etc) or by just a change in what you want to experience in life. 

I know this was rambling and I apologize for it and hope it made some sense


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I'm an old guy, one that has only been sailing for the past 10 years. Prior to that, I was a died in the wool powerboater and owned a lot of boats while still maintaining my marital status. 

First and foremost, you may not want to retire in your late 50s, and I can almost guarantee you that if you purchase a 50-foot sailboat, you will not, financially, be able to retire at that point. As you and that boat age, you will both require more capital outlay for routine maintenance. Boats, especially one that large, are expensive to own, even it they just sit at the dock most of the time. 

Therefore, my suggestion is to stockpile the money in something that will provide you with sufficient interest. This will allow you to procure that 50-footer when you eventually retire, which may not be until you are a really old codger like me.  Then, when that day comes, you can procure the boat at a reasonable price and have lots of cruising funds available to enjoy your dream.

Good luck,

Gary


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Bigger the "project, boat, house etc..." the bigger the burden and think in terms of increasing geometrically.

So much of these choices seem to be driven by how much $$ one has. This is of course a fact of life. What isn't is that things change... And some of those changes are out of left field and can mean a huge course correction. 

I started with a new boat and spent about 5 years adding, improving, perfecting and learning before I jumped. The thought of repeating this work again would be a huge impediment to going out getting some more LOA. Don't get me wrong... I loved every moment of those 5 years of learning, and working and spending on the boat. And for sure were I to take a new (bigger boat) I would go at it with a lot me confidence and wisdom... if not more energy and enthusiasm.

So maybe one take away would be to buy a decent equipped cruise ready boat and sail it for a number of years in all sorts of conditions and places if you can. Then armed with you newfound wisdom and knowledge go out and get the rigth boat for you and give it the love and time and money and effort to make it perfect for you. I don't think ANY boat would perfect for any sailor who intends to live 24/7 and has some specific plans and needs (who doesn't?).

You don't want a do over... waste of time and money. Look for a way to make the right set of decisions. Planning and thinking things thru and considering consequences and upside and downside should guide you.

I wonder how many sailors first boat was high 40s to 50s LOA? If you find some... and they had a similar plan... ask them... pick their brains.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

Arcb said:


> Good detail, if you grew up with a Gulfstar 47, a Gulfstar 50 probably isn't that big of a boat for you. I have a buddy that lives with his wife and kid on a Gulfstar 43, they seem comfortable and they have been doing it for years.


That's what I was thinking. A 50' feels right at home to me, size-wise.. but also, I remember my family motored it as much or more than sailed it, so it was never really a chore to handle it. That makes a huge difference I'm sure.



Arcb said:


> Boat ownership and employment do not need to be mutually exclusive activities. A Gulfstar 50 would make a pretty comfortable live aboard while you continued to work, if you wanted to.


Also true. As I work in the IT field, I'm fortunate enough to have a skill set that I can use just about anywhere.



Arcb said:


> I am in my early 40s retirement is still at least 10 years off, likely more but I still do get to do a lot of sailing because I make it a priority. I stopped working Mondays entirely so that every week end is a long week end. Plus I like to take leaves of absences whenever to opportunity presents itself. I took a couple years off about 7 years ago and I am taking a year off right now, we have a bunch of different things planned including several months of cruising, maybe more, we are torn between cruising the Florida Keys and renting a beach house in Bocas Del Toro. Odds are Panama is going to win that debate.
> 
> For us we have gone with a trailer sailor, but that has absolutely nothing to do with learning to sail or maintain and not even much to do with money, we do trailer sailor because we can be any where in North America in a week, so it really extends our cruising radius. Plus, big boats suck where I live.


Sounds like you've carved out an awesome plan. I think that's fantastic. I love the working 4 days a week idea. I wonder if I could swing that. Great stuff!


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

Absolutely, hence my desire to "get going now"... things only become more difficult as one ages, and sailing isn't exactly a breeze (breeze, get it? is this thing on? ), so from one perspective, it makes more sense to do it while I still have youth and vitality on my side.

As to the leaving people behind part, what you say makes sense, for those that have those ties.

In my situation, I have no wife, no kids, and very little family left, and half of my nearest family wants to go with me, so I wouldn't be depriving family members or cutting ties.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

TakeFive said:


> This is sounding more and more like a classic mid-life crisis. Perhaps OP should be seeking out a mentor or someone who knows him in real life for advice that considers the big picture of his life. We can give advice on sailing, boat maintenance, and expenses, but that may not be getting at the heart of the matter.


I suppose it's a bit of both. I'm here for the sailing advice, and the experience / wisdom of others who've traveled the same path I'm contemplating, but obviously the crisis part I have to figure out on my own. 

The advice and stories have been worth their weight in gold, so it's assisted me in shaping a more sensible plan of attack, instead of going off half-cocked, which rarely ever works in one's favor.


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## dinosdad (Nov 19, 2010)

SanderO said:


> I don't know if this had been discussed... but I toss it out. Going off and sailing, leaving it behind has an element of selfishness to it. If your journey is a no one's expense the selfishness harms no one at all. But people who take off and leave friends and family behind can be "hurting" others who have emotional or financial or some other form of dependence. Parents don't leave their children to go off and have an adventure. They don't even do it for a night a the theater... they get someone to watch the children. Even your employer or business associates may have a "need" for you which can of course be replaced by another hiree.
> 
> People who take young children off on a multiyear sailing adventure also have to consider that they will leave their friends behind. Of course they will have a new and hopefully rich experience at sea. But it is a change for them and they may not be able to make the sort of informed decision that an adult does. This is not to say that sailing with kids is a bad thing. But would the parents no go if their child resisted and wanted to stay with the friends, school, cousins and grand parents?
> 
> ...


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

Thanks to the sound, sobering and sensible advice I've gotten out of this thread, I am definitely going to tweak my plan, and aim for something more manageable, size-wise.

A comment was made that people who aim for big boats are probably used to big spaces...This is true in my case. I've spent my life on large boats and in large houses, so I tend to like a lot of "elbow room". Standing in the N30, it almost felt claustrophobic to me, and while I understand the point that you don't need that much room to sleep, in order enjoy the process, I want to have enough space so that I'm not bumping into my family member every time I take a step below decks.

One thing I've noticed throughout this thread, is that I'm hearing the same sentiment echoed a number of times. Once I finally took the plunge and bought the boat and got used to it, I wished I had done it x number of years earlier. That is the "crisis" point I'm contemplating. To wait, or not to wait.

Of course the other reoccurring theme is that this lifestyle is far more work than you can ever imagine, and I don't doubt that. 


Without further ado, here's is a more revised plan of attack. Get a more reasonable sized boat, one preferably setup for solo sailing, something in the 32-44 range that ideally is a blue water cruiser and roomy enough for a liveaboard situation. It would be great also if it had a pilothouse, but I'm flexible on that.

Spend a few years knocking around on it locally (I'm in CA) and spend some time living aboard it (although I have to keep my house for a while yet strictly for the financial benefits), and in parallel, downgrade assets to be able to make a transition to living aboard it full time. 

In the beginning stages, if I can source a nice enough boat, instead of chartering, could air bnb it a bit to offset some costs. 

...

Here's my revised checklist of what I'd like in a boat..

- 36 - 44 foot range
- blue water cruiser
- stable / sturdy / easy to adapt to solo sailing 
- Pilothouse (if possible, but not mandatory)
- between 30 - 50k. I could spend more, but then I'm eating into upgrade budget.


Here's a list of the upgrades I'd like to do (at least the ones I can think of off the top of my head)
-in boom furler, 
- windvane (atlas? cape horn?)
- autopilot 
- rolling jib furler
- self tacking jib system
- electric winches, anchor
- watermaker


I know, not cheap, but they will drastically improve the ease of sailing the boat.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

After you grow up you may want to do this...or be able to.

Of course, do it soon.

There are 3 guys at a campfire trading BS and lies. You are one of them. 

One guy played his cards to be safe and secure in his mature years. He is proud of not making mistakes. Maybe he shorted Lucent at the right time or bought xyz at the right time. He knows most things there is to know about insurance...defense. He feels like he followed his self plan to great success.

The other guy took a lark...traveled much of the world..encountered many unusual things and has memories that arent...in a plan.

Who is interesting? 
Watching paint dry...or guy who winged it?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

dinosdad said:


> This is one of the most eloquent and insightful posts I've read about the subject of leaving people behind to follow your dreams.
> ...
> 
> . Enjoy life a little each day ,you don't have to eat the whole cake at once , sometimes just a slice here and there satisfies....


Thank you for this post. I'll edit it to make it more understandable...

My parents have passed and recently my younger brother. I have only one relative my sister. I am not only her health care proxy, but she is no longer capable of living on her own. She now lives in assisted care. This was a very hard move for her who was a fiercely independent person. But the only choices were to live with us or in assisted living. We found a place 6 minutes from here and also found someone who will take her out to wherever she wants... she pays of course. Even so I could not move far away and leave her "alone".

++++

Children may be too young to be involved in a decision to go cruising. They seem flexible and adaptable. They are. But separation is very traumatic for children. You need to be really careful about this.

++++

Sailboats are pretty small spaces to live it. However it's rare that you are bumping into your partner in a cramped space. In fact consider that wide open spaces are NOT seaworthy. You need close by handholds. Surely you don't want to feel cramped... low headroom and so forth.

Most sailboats actually have similar plans below... with variations on a theme. Although people no longer work with large paper charts in most cases... it's still nice to have a "desk" with instruments, or a place for a computer or a surface to work on small projects with all manner of needed stuff close by. Blowing off a designated "nav station" to use a salon table IS a compromise in my opinion... not for the route planning aspect... but for all the other uses just noted.

What CAN and does grow with a larger boat is the possibility for a bigger and better galley with more stowage. THAT does change things A LOT. You may not need 8 berths... a sleeping cabin forward and aft with the occasional crasher on the settee works in 99% of the cases of a couple who sails off.

Sure it's way more comfortable to not have to crawl into and out of your bed. A stand up berth is definitely on the short list.

Don't forget a large and comfortable cockpit. One you can stretch out and lie down... sit and eat in comfort... and be reasonably well protected of sun and spray AND get around, use winches and main sheet... and with good visibility.

All of these are compromised as you move down from the high 30s and improved as you move up. But this will vary from boat to boat. For example the Pretorian 35 feels vastly smaller than my Contest 36.

Lotta pieces in this puzzle.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

loxxSail2 said:


> ...In the beginning stages, if I can source a nice enough boat, instead of chartering, could air bnb it a bit to offset some costs.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


A few more comments from the relentlessly disciplined one  :

I'm not aware of any AirBnB equivalent for boats. Maybe there's one out there, but the liability and difficulty of selecting renters who are qualified enough to do a bareboat without killing themselves will not be straightforward. And, as already mentioned, skippered charters are a break-even proposition at best unless you're in a tax bracket that allows you to benefit from depreciation of a business asset.

If you want to sit in a dock, go big. If you want to sail, go small. The fun/work ratio on a small boat is much greater. I've noticed a huge difference between my prior 25 footer and my current 34 footer. I've always been good mechanically, but I can tell you that there have been times with my current boat where I would have been totally over my head with my current boat if I hadn't first learned from my 25 footer. Stuff always breaks on boats, and usually in an inaccessible place. One time when I needed a professional mechanic for a broken water pump shaft, it was real nice just pulling the outboard and driving it to the Honda dealer than it was replacing my leaky water pump (five times!!!! since the replacement was defective and required multiple swaps) on my current inboard diesel. And on that topic...

...it's nice to have a list of upgrades that you plan to make. You might as well throw it away now, because as soon as you get your boat you are going to discover a whole bunch of stuff that needs replacing in order just to keep the vessel safe for use. The list will almost certainly get longer than you can keep up with, and you may never get the upgrades unless they come with the boat.

The most expensive boat you will buy is probably the one with the lowest purchase price. The sizes and purchase prices you mention are achievable, but in that size range you are likely to have a lot of costly replacements that you won't get your money out of before you sell. Many here will disagree with this, but I like to advise getting the newest and smallest boat you can within your budget, as you are much more likely to be able to enjoy sailing with less work, and recoup more of your money when you eventually sell.

I'd also recommend you talk to insurance agents before you shop. It may affect your decision.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Very disciplined answer and good advice.😄🌪

I don’t agree with the newest smallest boat concept. I think you can consider that yes, but 20 some years ago it was not in my list of criteria when I bought Haleakula. 

Narrow down which “ brands” you like to 5 or 6, which have the appropriate accomadations, features, sailing characterteristics, storage, tankage etc. then look for the boats which are in the best condition in those boats. Good sailboats taken care of last many years if they are made well. It’s all about the bones. 

IMHO many of the newer boats are not made as well as older ones ( a statement sure to get me in trouble here) . For example take my brand and Tartan. IMHO the older C&C and Tartans were made “better”. They weren’t as concerned with lightening the boats. Another consideration do you want to buy a boat which is made in mass production, or a boat where they may only make a few yearly. Do they use the Bare minimum sized equipment for travelers, winches, chainplates, etc. what are the weaknesses in each boat......they all have them. To fix these weaknesses what are the costs associated. 

Look at how many of the brand (% to how many made) are still for sale and are still around. It may give you some idea how long the life expectancy of each brand lasts. For you $30-$50 K you won’t be buying anything close to a “newer” boat. Especially in the 30-40 foot range.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

loxxSail2 said:


> Without further ado, here's is a more revised plan of attack. Get a more reasonable sized boat, one preferably setup for solo sailing, something in the 32-44 range that ideally is a blue water cruiser and roomy enough for a liveaboard situation. It would be great also if it had a pilothouse, but I'm flexible on that.
> 
> Spend a few years knocking around on it locally (I'm in CA) and spend some time living aboard it (although I have to keep my house for a while yet strictly for the financial benefits), and in parallel, downgrade assets to be able to make a transition to living aboard it full time.
> 
> ...


Some things to consider. A bluewater boat might have more storage but less living space than a coastal cruiser. I can't think of any 32 foot bluewater boat that can comfortably accommodate guests. Look for a 36-38 foot coastal cruiser for your "now" boat. Maybe an Ericson 380 or Landfall 38? Don't buy a boat with the idea of upgrading it, especially if it is boat you are going to only keep for 5-10 years. Find the boat equipped the way you want it. You will lose your investment if you pour $50k into a 50k boat.

I am curious what is the financial benefits to keeping your home for now? As far as I know if you have a mortgage on a sailboat it offers the same tax advantages as a home, although an increase in value is not likely.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

chef2sail said:


> IMHO many of the newer boats are not made as well as older ones ( a statement sure to get me in trouble here) .


That's not the case with all boats.

Pacific Seacraft 40 is a bluewater sailboat capable of carrying its crew across the world?s oceans. She is made in America- hand crafted in North Carolina -and is noted both for her beauty and her functional, seakindly and secure sailing characterist

But you might have to spend more than your budgeted $50k. You won't be lacking in anything except money in your retirement account.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SanderO said:


> Parents don't leave their children to go off and have an adventure. They don't even do it for a night at the theater... they get someone to watch their children.


My father was an emergency room surgeon. He didn't go "off and have an adventure", but he certainly wasn't there as a father. Of course, I can't blame him, after all, he was saving lives.
However, as an adult I needed to live my life, my kid would get her chance to live hers after she was grown, so, given an opportunity to circumnavigate in my 20's, off I went with my child. But unlike my dad, I was with my child 24/7/365.
So, you tell me, given the two choices, the conventional stay at home, support the family life that my father chose, or the choice I made to be with my child full time in an unconventional life, do you really think my choice was selfish, as you put it?
I get a little burned whenever folks think it is a parent's, child's or friend's responsibility to live their life for another. We each only get one shot at life and not taking advantage of it because of some misplaced sense of guilt, seems foolish in the extreme. 
I would never ask my child or friends to care for me in my old age or in the case of a prolonged illness, at the expense of her/their dreams and desires. *That* would be the ultimate selfish act, in my opinion.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> ...I don't agree with the newest smallest boat concept. I think you can consider that yes, but 20 some years ago it was not in my list of criteria when I bought Haleakula...


I know (and said) that my suggestion is debatable, but it's more important for those shopping for their first boat, because newbs are more likely to underestimate the amount of upkeep and repairs needed on an older/larger/cheaper boat. Once you've owned a boat for a few years, your knowledge reduces the risk of getting an older/larger/cheaper boat.

I fully agree that many older boats are built sturdier, but the buyer needs to be able to identify maintenance issues, because most first-time buyers are already smitten by the time they hire the surveyor.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

capta said:


> My father was an emergency room surgeon. He didn't go "off and have an adventure", but he certainly wasn't there as a father. Of course, I can't blame him, after all, he was saving lives.
> However, as an adult I needed to live my life, my kid would get her chance to live hers after she was grown, so, given an opportunity to circumnavigate in my 20's, off I went with my child. But unlike my dad, I was with my child 24/7/365.
> So, you tell me, given the two choices, the conventional stay at home, support the family life that my father chose, or the choice I made to be with my child full time in an unconventional life, do you really think my choice was selfish, as you put it?
> I get a little burned whenever folks think it is a parent's, child's or friend's responsibility to live their life for another. We each only get one shot at life and not taking advantage of it because of some misplaced sense of guilt, seems foolish in the extreme.
> I would never ask my child or friends to care for me in my old age or in the case of a prolonged illness, at the expense of her/their dreams and desires. *That* would be the ultimate selfish act, in my opinion.


The two choice you described are not the only ones. I think taking a 5- 10 yr old means a huge change for the child. It MAY be a great one.... but it may not be. Just YOU being around them 24/7 may not be what they need. That could be helicoptering.

Taking off and leaving a sick or disabled person in the care of "the system" may not be the most caring thing. Sure THEY may not want to be a burden. But they may not be able to deal with abuse that is known to occur at assisted living facilities.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

chef2sail said:


> Good discussion. This post may seem too esoteric but here goes.
> 
> You will get a lot of differening opinions here and many are reflective of their owners. Note: the following are just observations with no value judgement as to what is right or best approach. You have to figure out what works for you and your personality.
> 
> ...


Fantastic story Chef... that is amazing the journey you've taken and the choices you made after getting out there and doing it. This is EXACTLY why I posted on here. I am smart enough to know what I don't know, and to learn from those that do.

Yes, my priorities and my life goals could very easily change as I get more into this lifestyle.

My personality has always error-ed on the side of caution and I tend to be more of a planner than a spontaneous doer type, but I want to change that a plan. You can plan for ever, but if you don't take that first step, you're not going anywhere.

Also, let me state for the record, that I have a VERY HEALTHY respect for the ocean and what she's capable of. I will probably always be the one to err on the side of caution when it comes to the sea and all things related to it.

In some of my sailing classes, I get partnered up with different types of people and the cowboys and the dreamers make themselves known pretty quickly in class (I make mental notes to avoid these idiots), as they're the ones who are not taking it seriously enough and will end up going swimming.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

If I could add one more bit to this excellent roundtable discussion (damn, I wish I could take all of you out for beers, this has been an amazing conversation..)

the budget number I tossed out there was scaled down proportionately to the size of the boat. The gulf 50 I wanted to buy at the start of this thread was almost double that, and within budget.

So if the wise wizards here think that instead of chucking 30k at a 40' whatever, I should chuck 70k at it, well I can do that, but that seems like overpaying to me... or perhaps it's not.

To the comment of why I would need to keep my house, well for starters, it's an excellent tax break, and off the top of my head, I doubt a sailboat, even a liveaboard could/would qualify for the same tax breaks, but honestly I don't know about that, so I shouldn't speak on that topic (would be pretty great if it did tho!).. secondly, I have some very nice equity built up in my house, so when I sell it, it will be the springboard to buy the retirement home outright..

So the plan is to have both a paid for house, and a paid for boat, no mortgages on anything... now I'm just left with maintenance / upkeep costs, and as long as I can keep some trickling in, I *think* I'll be ok....and I might not? Best laid plans of mice and men.. 

here's a couple that look interesting to me

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990/Roberts-PH-Motorsailor-3139080/Seattle/WA/United-States

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1971/Morgan-40-Pilot-House-3214857/Marathon/FL/United-States

Anyone have thoughts on these, good or bad?


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Capta, as you well know, when you work in the medical field, you no longer have much of a home life. This is one of the reasons I opted to walk away from a promising career in medicine after 15 years. My son hardly recognized me when I came home from work, my weight had dropped to 145 pounds soaking wet, which is right skinny for someone that stood 6-feet at the time, and I damned near lived in the operating room. 

When I walked away from my job at The Johns Hopkins Hospital in 1975, I never looked back, though I was asked to return to that field of endeavor several times. I worked in thoracic surgery, and I cannot imagine the stress of being an ER surgeon. It had to be brutal.

All the best,

Gary


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

travlin-easy said:


> Capta, as you well know, when you work in the medical field, you no longer have much of a home life. This is one of the reasons I opted to walk away from a promising career in medicine after 15 years. My son hardly recognized me when I came home from work, my weight had dropped to 145 pounds soaking wet, which is right skinny for someone that stood 6-feet at the time, and I damned near lived in the operating room.
> 
> When I walked away from my job at The Johns Hopkins Hospital in 1975, I never looked back, though I was asked to return to that field of endeavor several times. I worked in thoracic surgery, and I cannot imagine the stress of being an ER surgeon. It had to be brutal.
> 
> ...


I often say I grew up with god.

My father was a Mayo Clinic trained thorassic surgeon. Growing up surrounded by surgeons was quite an experience. The god complex that they were superior or that they worked in a field more important than others or that it was harder and more demanding than others jobs or professions was pervasive. That is no excuse to relieve them of family responsibilities.

Thank goodness I was balanced by my mother , a PhD who taught second grade for over 50 years. I always thought her profession was so important.

Interesting enough it was my father who bought a Sailboat , kept it at Gratitude in Rock Hall. ( we lived in Philly) . I was the only child of 6 who would go sailing on the boat. He was a terrible sailor, though not if you asked him. He treated the boat like the OR. We would scrub it down like scrub nurses. when we got there, as he would be reading below. We'd then go out for an adventure packed sail with Captain Blye aka Dr Strangelove barking commands at us all. When we docked, he'd shower while we all scrubbed the boat again. It's a wonder that I became a sailor. Course even though my first OR experience was at 5 when he took me in to see an open heart surgery. Course I never became a surgeon .

No excuses for people in medical professions affects me that their calling was so much higher than everyone else's, or that they worked harder, longer hours, or it was more pressure filled.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Gary, no disrespect as we are friends but it’s good you got out. 
Any profession not kept in balance with other aspects in your life can create a scenario similar to what you went through.
I’ve lived almost as long as you my friend. 

I’ve seen people unable in many walks of life not able to handle their job....life balance. Some it affected them physically like you. Some it affected them mentally. Some had no effect. Some it ruined their family life. It’s not just the medical field my friend. There are pressures in every field or many fields.

Many people figure it out....though some it takes longer. Good you figured it out in time for you and your families happiness.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SanderO said:


> The two choice you described are not the only ones. I think taking a 5- 10 yr old means a huge change for the child. It MAY be a great one.... but it may not be. Just YOU being around them 24/7 may not be what they need. That could be helicoptering.
> 
> Taking off and leaving a sick or disabled person in the care of "the system" may not be the most caring thing. Sure THEY may not want to be a burden. But they may not be able to deal with abuse that is known to occur at assisted living facilities.


What is helicoptering? 
A) My daughter was born on the trip. She wasn't ripped out of a life, not that that is relevant, in this discussion. Many children are uprooted and have their lives changed forever, but if they are with their loving family, it's not such a hardship.
Living in a family where the parents are miserable, working in jobs they hate or inattentive to their children is *much* worse IMO.
B) Over the years, I've known plenty of cruisers, of all ages, and yet I do not believe I've ever met any who "Taking off and leaving a sick or disabled person". However, I have met a considerable number who have had to leave their lives to go home and care for a parent, many of whom did not have a choice because the parent did not make proper arrangements for the inevitable.
It's not like most cruisers are uneducated or come from impoverished backgrounds. I should think very few selfishly left their parents destitute as they succeeded financially, on their path to cruising? 
We all know that old age is coming, it's rather unavoidable. And with it, illness and in many cases, some sort of care. Leaving the responsibility for all that to our children is, as I said IMO, horribly selfish and unfair.
Obviously, you see it differently. Of course, that's Ok. But I'm the old person now, my parents are long gone, and under no circumstances will I ever allow either of my children to put their lives on hold to care for me. It is absolutely unthinkable. It would also be pretty hypocritical, considering the choices I've made in my life.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

The sun is just rising in the English Channel and I am in the middle of it
Exactly the middle... In the buffer zone in the Vts. 
Heading to the Netherlands to see if Amsterdam is what they say. 
Next port in about 10 hours is Breskens where I bump into a American friend on his boat for a belated 4th of July. 
We then buddy-boat up the Mast Up canals to Amsterdam picking up women and getting drunk. 

Or just getting drunk. 

So weigh your life. What can you possibly loose... Except for a bit of money. 


Just passed a beach ball. 

:svoilier:


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> The sun is just rising in the English Channel and I am in the middle of it
> Exactly the middle... In the buffer zone in the Vts.
> Heading to the Netherlands to see if Amsterdam is what they say.
> Next port in about 10 hours is Breskens where I bump into a American friend on his boat for a belated 4th of July.
> ...


A moment of individual choice and clarity....??


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

If you were ready to go now, my counsel would be to go ahead and buy the Gulfstar. But from what I can gather, you are not ready to go now. Therefore, buying the Gulfstar now would cost you more than you can imagine. In my opinion, as long as you will be a part-time sailor: live modestly on land; own and sail the crap out of a small, cramped, non-liveaboard; and occasionally charter to scratch your big-boat itch. This is what smart-money people do. The money you won't spend on the upkeep/fees of a 50'er will be greater than the purchasing/owning costs of a < 30'er. Also, make health/physical fitness a high priority. Sailing is not that hard for fit people who are 20 years older than you are.

On the other hand, going sooner is better than going later. This will involve compromise on your part. Most of those youngsters who have done so and are glamorizing the experience on Youtube have MUCH SMALLER boats than 50'. 

The best solution, IMO, for you is to work out a way that you can go sailing for a month or two at a time, without having to work, but have work waiting for you when you get back. If you charter, you can step off the boat, hand over the keys, and never have to worry about repairing, maintaining, paying storage fees for that boat again. And you can sail all over the world without having to sail all over the world.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

capta said:


> My father was an emergency room surgeon. He didn't go "off and have an adventure", but he certainly wasn't there as a father. Of course, I can't blame him, after all, he was saving lives.


My dad was a surgeon as well. It was just one of the few undertakings/accomplishment in his life. One day while attending summer camp we were serenaded by "Cats in the Cradle." It brought me and my best friend to tears realizing this was our fathers and may become us. We determined not to become our fathers. I come from a long line of overachievers. I have been determined not to follow a similar path or at least overachieve in my own venues outside of career. I have always sought a balance of work and play. To me one of my goals to achieve in life is to sail around the world. If for some reason i only make it as far as Mexico Fiji or New Zealand and enjoy myself I would consider myself successful in this endevour.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> The sun is just rising in the English Channel and I am in the middle of it
> Exactly the middle... In the buffer zone in the Vts.
> Heading to the Netherlands to see if Amsterdam is what they say.
> Next port in about 10 hours is Breskens where I bump into a American friend on his boat for a belated 4th of July.
> ...


Such an awesome philosophy.. This is what I have been thinking.. what do I have to lose? Except for some cash, and perhaps my life. ha ha .. but seriously, it's sounds awesome. can I start tomorrow?


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

loxxSail2 said:


> Such an awesome philosophy.. This is what I have been thinking.. what do I have to lose? Except for some cash, and perhaps my life. ha ha .. but seriously, it's sounds awesome. can I start tomorrow?


The world does not give a crap weather you start tomorrow or spend the rest of your life working to pay your mortgage, insurance, and taxes. So, yes, you can start tomorrow. The questions are: What is preventing you from starting tomorrow? Whatever it is, is it worth it? And if you are not ready to start tomorrow, what will it take for you to get ready? Not enough money? OK, how much money will be enough?


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## Sailorstan (Jul 5, 2018)

Nick
This is your opportunity to get it done... Do it. Get your dream boat and love life as long as you can. We don't get too many chances to change lifestyle. If this is what you dream of doing and you can financially arrange it without hurting financially you will never regret it. 
I do. I'm 63 and feel every ache and pain. I missed my chance and regret it!\
Now Couch sailor Stan


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

jwing said:


> The world does not give a crap weather you start tomorrow or spend the rest of your life working to pay your mortgage, insurance, and taxes. So, yes, you can start tomorrow. The questions are: What is preventing you from starting tomorrow? Whatever it is, is it worth it? And if you are not ready to start tomorrow, what will it take for you to get ready? Not enough money? OK, how much money will be enough?


That was sort of rhetorical. Yes, I know I can start tomorrow.

Actually, the reality is that I will probably take the rest of the year to organize, clean up some loose ends, hunt for the boat, and probably start fresh in the new year.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

So in looking at smaller boats, does anyone have any opinions on these three? I'm not as familiar with boats in the 30-40' range, so wouldn't mind an opinion or two. 

Here are three that look interesting to me.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1991/Catalina-36-MkII-3225054/Santa-Barbara/CA/United-States

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990/Roberts-PH-Motorsailor-3139080/Seattle/WA/United-States

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1971/Morgan-40-Pilot-House-3214857/Marathon/FL/United-States


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I know a woman who owned and lived aboard in a marina that model Catalina... and sailed LISound. I don't know or care for the other two boats. You can learn a lot on this size boat.. hopefully not sink too much money into it and not take a bath when you are ready to take off in a larger boat. That should take anywhere from an intense year to a couple... depending on how much you have to do to get the boat up to spec for offshore and live aboard cruising and how much of your time you devote to the upgrades.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Loxx,

Which Gulfstar 50 were you thinking of? Not the original 50 - you were looking at the "Sailmaster" 50 with the insane big salon separate from the dinette?

I kinda get that for motor-cruiser-like space. I wouldn't want to deal with more than about 44-45' in real life doublehanded. I regularly sail with a friend on his Sun Kiss 45 and it's already a handful for two.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

zedboy said:


> Loxx,
> 
> Which Gulfstar 50 were you thinking of? Not the original 50 - you were looking at the "Sailmaster" 50 with the insane big salon separate from the dinette?
> 
> I kinda get that for motor-cruiser-like space. I wouldn't want to deal with more than about 44-45' in real life doublehanded. I regularly sail with a friend on his Sun Kiss 45 and it's already a handful for two.


Zed,

This one. Might not be to everyone else's taste, but it's droolworthy to me.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1976/Gulfstar-52-MS-3222408/Punta-Gorda/FL/United-States

Ran my suggestions by my stepdad/co-conspirator in this venture and he echoed a similar statement, go with the catalina.. so perhaps i'll narrow my looking to gulstars and catalina's in the 35-42' range.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Loxx,

I hear the drools, that's a sweet interior, but that one definitely has one cabin and about 8' more than two people could really justify.

The C36 has a spacious salon and galley (though the aft cabin won't compare with any of the Gulfstars) and the advantage of like 1800 (!) built, so strong owners' group plus company support. That's worth something.

Could put the Morgan 382/383 on your short list also.

A lot to be said for going sooner, within your current budget, and with more left for upgrades (and cruising kitty). Being able to work from anywhere is great. Not needing to is even better.


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## Rezz (Oct 12, 2012)

Caribbeachbum said:


> My wife paid a local artist to do a sculpture last year. It's just the word "now" in hammered metal, tarted up all pretty. It hangs over her desk. We are a couple of months away from what we both agree we should have done years ago.
> 
> Go now. If you have enough money, go now. If you don't have enough money, go simple, cheap, and go now, as we wish we had.
> 
> This is not original thought on my part, but it's a philosophy we have adopted; and we are going.


I'd love to see a pic of the sculpture if you have one. Good and simple advice


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## Caribbeachbum (Feb 23, 2014)

Resolute_ZS said:


> I'd love to see a pic of the sculpture if you have one. Good and simple advice


If this works, a photo is attached...


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## Seaman_3rdClass (Jul 3, 2014)

I thought I'd chime in, as we were looking for our first boat a few years ago. Ended up buying a 40-footer in good shape, a Freedom 40/40 with a free-standing CF mast, and a self-tacking camberspar jib. We love it, as it's solid, stiff, fast, well thought-out and easy to sail short-handed. It is pretty much the right size for us (a couple in our late 40s in good condition) and can accommodate guests with kids, though sometimes I wish it was a little smaller, especially in tight-quarters docking and wrestling with the heavy boom and huge full-battened main. But we had done Sailtime for two years (also on a 40-footer) so we knew we could handle a 40-footer. 

I would recommend looking at our boat's little sister, the Freedom 35 also designed by Pedrick (the mid 90s sloop, not the 80s cat ketch), though it is not available with a pilothouse which you seem to like a lot. A few are for sale on YW now in the 70-80K range. 

Btw, that Gulfstar 52 does look awesome and I am a believer in buying the boat that you just love the looks of (provided it makes sense otherwise). But it is a huge boat, especially for a first-timer sailing short-handed. 44000 lbs! And I think ours at 24000 is heavy and not easy to manhandle at the dock. One concern looking at the specs is that it only has a ballast of 5000 lbs at that weight. Can that be right? I guess it's basically a motor boat with sails. 
Our Freedom 40/40 has a ballast of nearly 10K at 24K gross weight.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

Seaman_3rdClass said:


> I thought I'd chime in, as we were looking for our first boat a few years ago. Ended up buying a 40-footer in good shape, a Freedom 40/40 with a free-standing CF mast, and a self-tacking camberspar jib. We love it, as it's solid, stiff, fast, well thought-out and easy to sail short-handed. It is pretty much the right size for us (a couple in our late 40s in good condition) and can accommodate guests with kids, though sometimes I wish it was a little smaller, especially in tight-quarters docking and wrestling with the heavy boom and huge full-battened main. But we had done Sailtime for two years (also on a 40-footer) so we knew we could handle a 40-footer.
> 
> I would recommend looking at our boat's little sister, the Freedom 35 also designed by Pedrick (the mid 90s sloop, not the 80s cat ketch), though it is not available with a pilothouse which you seem to like a lot. A few are for sale on YW now in the 70-80K range.
> 
> ...


Yeah, the Gulfstar as it's been said, is a motorboat with sails, although I never saw it that way... it's also been called a waterbago, but I'm ok with that.

Cool, I will look into the Morgan and the Freedom 35 as well.. I shouldn't limit myself at this point. 

I do like pilothouses a lot, but hopefully for the right reasons, as protection from the elements. If that's not the right reason, or if there are other reasons to avoid pilothouses, then I would definitely be open to hearing them. :_)


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Just seeing this thread and havne't read all the response, so apologies if you've already recieved this input.

As to the philosophical part, no one can help you with that. You can't know the future state of your health or financial condition. If you have the money you'll need to live the lifestyle you want, for the rest of your indeterminate lifespan, you have options. Most do not, especially when considering the cost of old aged retirement. Some do. If you won't become a burden upon others, you get to pick. Like most, I'm trying to split the difference. I could theoretically retire right now and live comfortable, at a lower but reasonable standard. However, my youngest is about to go to medical school and, if I can keep working, I can pay for it for her. My choice. 

As for the 50ft boat. Your aptitude will define whether you'll be able to handle her, with your level of experience. Some can. Most would find it challenging or even scary. The real issue comes back to finances and timing, again. If you buy a brand new 50ft boat and retire 11 years later, you'll do some significant refitting. If you buy a used 50ft boat and retire 11 years later, you'll refit almost everything: sails, standing and running rigging, pumps, motors, on and on. Tens of thousands of dollars. We're faced with that prospect right now. We love our boat, but she's 14 years old and on the bubble of needing many expensive updates. Thankfully, we love her enough to find that worth it, but we have to consider whether it makes more sense to buy the next boat instead. 

Good luck with your plan.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> ....If you buy a brand new 50ft boat and retire 11 years later, you'll do some significant refitting. If you buy a used 50ft boat and retire 11 years later, you'll refit almost everything: sails, standing and running rigging, pumps, motors, on and on. Tens of thousands of dollars. We're faced with that prospect right now. We love our boat, but she's 14 years old and on the bubble of needing many expensive updates. Thankfully, we love her enough to find that worth it, but we have to consider whether it makes more sense to buy the next boat instead.
> 
> Good luck with your plan.


Why would it take 11 yrs to trick out a brand new boat for cruising offshore? Of course all components have a service life and usually they don't "expire" at the same time. So essentially you will be, as most sailors are, in a constant maintenance / upgrade program. This is a given. Depending on how much and hard you sail you will replace your sails in X years, Rigging in Y and so on... My diesel is fine after 33 yrs but has had constant maintenance and a few more extensive repairs.

It should be noted that this program should be embraced and enjoyed... and the benefit is that you really know your boat and its systems intimately and are not intimidated at / by repair/service and upgrades. This is a costly part of owning a boat can't be avoided and only can be limited by doing as much yourself as you can. Unfortunately many system/components give up the ghost with no warning. Bummer. I suppose you can replace pumps after X yrs or Y hrs before they go south. It may be more convenient.

Trading up and starting the process is a very costly approach. You will never get a penny back for most of the upgrades and maintenance.

I repeat my advice... get a comfy smaller boat that will hold a decent portion of its value on trade or resale. Several years with this boat should give you a HUGE set of clues as to precisely what you need and what you can handle. If things do not pan out in stage one... you can exit with less pain.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

SanderO


Minne is just saying that after 11 years of use the boat will deteriorate. From new, it would need some refitting, but from used after 11 years of use it would need major refitting.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Sal Paradise said:


> SanderO
> 
> Minne is just saying that after 11 years of use the boat will deteriorate. From new, it would need some refitting, but from used after 11 years of use it would need major refitting.


hard to say... a well maintained boat will not need a lot of refitting per se... it may need mods to suit the owner.

But sure people may coast with a new boat thinking there's not much to do and clearly the longer they coast the more they will pay the price... and probably why people turn them over as they hit the "expensive" period.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

to the OP

I would simply suggest you deiced where you will keep the boat and how you will use it and do an annual cost estimate. Definitely include an amount for unforeseen maintenance as well. Might be $10,000/ year for storage ( for the 50' boat) where you keep it plus another $5000 maintenance. So that's $1250/ month. . $70,000 / 120 payments = $600/month. I'd basically assume that the boat will be worthless when I am done. But, you might get your $70K back considering we are including $5k maintenance. So we are up to $1300- $1900/month. Or assume it sells for half what you paid for it. So, lets use the middle number or $1600/month

Then - actual use!! Fun!! Food, snacks, booze, just the cost of taking trips. Many here say its another $2000/ month for full time use. Might include dining out, marinas, port fees. whatever. A portion of that you spend now anyway. 

So now the dream boat is running a budget of about $4000/ month in use and $1600 /month when not used. 


How much do you travel and vacation now?? How much $$$$ do you spend a year on that? Is this new $4000/ month and $1600/month scenario better than what you could do with the money in other ways???


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> SanderO
> 
> Minne is just saying that after 11 years of use the boat will deteriorate. From new, it would need some refitting, but from used after 11 years of use it would need major refitting.


Thanks for translating, this is exactly what I was trying to say.

I'm living it right now. While we have given our boat high level care, she's going to be due for $15-$20k in standing rigging soon. Maybe $30k in side decks. $10k in sails. $25k in electronics. This hasn't even touched the air conditioning units, engines, raw water and sump pumps (12 pumps that I count off the top of my head), etc.

I do enjoy upgrading the boat and feel so much better about new stuff on the boat than in the house. I just wanted the OP to realize that buying the retirement 50 footer is going to come with an additional price, by the time they actually retire. If the funds are available, the upside is knowing the exact condition of everything aboard.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

loxxSail2 said:


> So in looking at smaller boats, does anyone have any opinions on these three? I'm not as familiar with boats in the 30-40' range, so wouldn't mind an opinion or two.
> 
> Here are three that look interesting to me.
> 
> ...


You like pilothouse boats; I get that! A couple of general thoughts: when a boat is a "rare" version or model, that means (among other things) it will be more difficult to resell. That Morgan is a rare version of the OI, and that means that most people looking for that boat (and it is a popular boat) won't want the rare version. And just based on that one photo of the battery compartment, it needs a complete rewiring.

The Roberts boat is nice, but again, I think that pilothouse boats in general are a niche market. Much more popular in the PNW than anywhere else. If you need to sell that boat on the east coast, you will likely have a problem. And btw, I've never seen a worse place to put the electrical panel than where they plunked it down on that boat. How the heck are you supposed to get through that companionway while at sea without hitting those switches? Don't get me wrong; I don't think that ease of resale should be the primary consideration in picking a boat. If you want a pilothouse boat, buy one. Just go in with your eyes open.

The Catalina is the choice here; if your goal is to have a boat to learn on, then you won't do much better. The manufacturer is known for its excellent support for older models, there are many Catalina 36's out there, so there is a big support system of owners who can provide advice and aid, and they are a well-made, high value boat. And not to beat a dead horse, but this is a boat that you should be able to resell easily.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

mstern said:


> You like pilothouse boats; I get that! A couple of general thoughts: when a boat is a "rare" version or model, that means (among other things) it will be more difficult to resell. That Morgan is a rare version of the OI, and that means that most people looking for that boat (and it is a popular boat) won't want the rare version. And just based on that one photo of the battery compartment, it needs a complete rewiring.
> 
> The Roberts boat is nice, but again, I think that pilothouse boats in general are a niche market. Much more popular in the PNW than anywhere else. If you need to sell that boat on the east coast, you will likely have a problem. And btw, I've never seen a worse place to put the electrical panel than where they plunked it down on that boat. How the heck are you supposed to get through that companionway while at sea without hitting those switches? Don't get me wrong; I don't think that ease of resale should be the primary consideration in picking a boat. If you want a pilothouse boat, buy one. Just go in with your eyes open.
> 
> The Catalina is the choice here; if your goal is to have a boat to learn on, then you won't do much better. The manufacturer is known for its excellent support for older models, there are many Catalina 36's out there, so there is a big support system of owners who can provide advice and aid, and they are a well-made, high value boat. And not to beat a dead horse, but this is a boat that you should be able to resell easily.


Not beating a dead horse at all, that was exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. Things like the switch panel position being in a lousy position isn't the type of thing that I would have immediately thought of, so that's fantastic to have an expert eye note these details.

Also great food for thought about the resale value, and not getting a rare or limited edition run on something.

I mentioned in a previous house I like pilouthouses for the protection they (supposedly) provide, but that could be a superficial need, and and probably could do without.. might just be able to outfit a Catalina with a wrap around cockpit cover to protect against elements, yeah?

...

So my shorter list of boats I'm considering now is looking more like a gulstart sailmaster 39, catalina, morgan 383 or freedom 35.

Probaly a much more sensible list to start with.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Minnewaska, a 14-year-old boat on this forum is an infant.  I would venture a guess that the vast majority of the boats owned by forum members are at least 25 years old. My boat is 45 years old and still continues to serve me very, very well, though I keep adding things that I probably don't really need such as an ice maker that I put onboard last week. Also have a brand new Honda 2001i generator that hasn't been fired up on the boat yet, but has been sitting in the cockpit for a month tethered to a heavy chain and lock. I probably will fire it up this weekend, just to make sure it will run my AC/Heat Pump and all the other 110-volt accessories i have onboard.

Now, if I were this young man's age, and had his dream, I would likely purchase the boat I currently own, the 33 Morgan Out Island, which is an outstanding cruising boat for those of us that like a boat with a very large interior, large cockpit, and capable of sailing to most anyplace you wish to visit. It's a great boat for single-handed sailing, very manageable in heavy weather and built like a tank. I had serious thoughts about purchasing the Morgan 41 Out Island center cockpit, ketch rigged and one of the top selling boats of its time. However, upon trying to single-hand sail one in Florida in a 25 knot breeze, I was convinced this was a bit much for a singlehanded sailor. However, one of our forum members, MarioG, now resides upon a 41 Out Island Ketch and single hand sails it from Maryland to Florida. Says it's one of the best boats he has ever sailed, especially in the open ocean.

Good luck,

Gary


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## [email protected] (Jul 9, 2018)

Hi,

I have have found that depending on other people to crew for you can be disappointing. 90% of the time I solo sail. I try to stay with 30 footers. They are big enough to be comfortable and small enough to single hand. I have sailed larger boats but getting in and out of marinas is a chore not to mention the expense of dockage and maintenance. I think it is good advice to start small and work your way up. I have made money on every boat I owned. So if you buy right you can at least break even. The money you save on a smaller boat, you can invest or spend on destination experiences.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

*Update:*

I contemplated almost not posting this update, because I'm fairly sure the villagers are going to be out with their torches and pitchforks....but here goes nothing.

I've found an amazing deal on a Gulfstar motorsailer, and I'm going to make an offer on it. It's just too good to pass up.

It's bigger than you all would suggest I get, however, I *do* have a plan. I will *not* be sailing it for quite a while. I'm going to dock it, and take a year or more to learn it's systems, motor it around the channel, continue building my skills, etc etc.. and little by little, sail it more and more...but ONLY after I'm comfortable with it, and have extra hands to ensure all goes well.

I will be splitting my time (slowly increasing) living aboard her and my house, and prepping for an early retirement.

Worst case, should it not work out for some reason, because of the excellent condition of the boat I should be able to resell it, however that is not my goal.

Yes, I'm jumping in head first, but it's truly exciting, and I will take careful, measured steps to ensure a successful experience. Plus I will have my step-dad involved in just about every aspect of it, and we're a good fit (his vast sailing expertise and my award winning sense of humor), we'll be a good team in this venture.

Ok, fire away, I know at least a few of you will say I should be tied to the mast and not allowed to do this, but you only live once, and I will always error on the side of caution.

Looking forward to the next chapter of my life on the water.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

loxxSail2 said:


> *Update:*
> 
> I contemplated almost not posting this update, because I'm fairly sure the villagers are going to be out with their torches and pitchforks....but here goes nothing.
> 
> I've found an amazing deal on a Gulfstar motorsailer, and I'm going to make an offer on it. It's just too good to pass up.


Yep that would be expensive to truck. It sounds like you are ready to jump in head first. Have you factored in the cost of a survey and potential huge investment in getting the boat ready for retirement?


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

Hey I say congratulations and best of luck. You have an adventure ahead. Thanks for posting an update. I'd love to hear more updates as your adventure unfolds.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

loxxSail2 said:


> the villagers are going to be out with their torches and pitchforks....but here goes nothing.
> 
> I will *not* be sailing it for quite a while. I'm going to dock it, and take a year or more to learn it's systems, motor it around the channel, continue building my skills, etc etc.. and little by little, sail it more and more...


If you are not listening to the pitchfork brigade then you should remove those artificial timelines from your mind.

You don't learn sailing by looking at a boat on a dock.

Go west, young man. Go east. Go south and north... And show those folks where they can shove their pitchfork! :grin :grin


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Unless you find you're the type that enjoys working on a boat, more than sailing it (and those people are abundant in this sport), you should get out there and sail her. 

I'm not a Gulfstar pro, but I understand their build quality has been all over the spectrum, from very poor to very good, depending on model and year. Be sure you're not getting a false economy and comparing a model/year with a poor reputation to values from years with a good rep. If it's one with poor build quality, you too will have a hard time selling her, without dramatic discounting.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Did I miss it? 
Have you done a survey?


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## dwedeking (Jan 28, 2007)

I'm of the "jump in with both feet" crowd. While on paper it seems the baby steps and work into a situation seems the safest most logical path I've found that when you in deep it keeps you focused and pushes you past your previous limits. Course I also spend at least 2 nights a week crying myself to sleep in the aft locker as I stress out about all the projects I need to get done


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

chef2sail said:


> Did I miss it?
> Have you done a survey?


Why would he need a survey? He found a good deal on a boat online. Cut a check to the old owner and find a captain to deliver it. What could go wrong?:wink


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Not a single one of us is in your shoes, so none of us can or should second guess you here (too much anyway). I am hoping the boat turns out to be all you want, and that your adventure is all you dreamed it would be. Please check back in and let us know if the survey and purchase work out, and how it's all going.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

loxxSail2 said:


> *Update:*
> 
> I contemplated almost not posting this update, because I'm fairly sure the villagers are going to be out with their torches and pitchforksrr....but here goes nothing.
> 
> ...


Good luck to you on your new adventure. Follow your intuition.

Don't worry what the "pitchfork crowd " says. They maybe to cautious.

Also don't worry what the "Roman Collesium " crowd says . That group will cheer/ egg you on till they see blood and you are spent then move to the next victim

Have fun

You know what's best for you and you only havevyourself to look at in the mirror.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Good luck.

Come back and tell us how it gos.

BUT GET A SURVEY AND INSIST ON A SEA TRIAL


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

jephotog said:


> Yep that would be expensive to truck. It sounds like you are ready to jump in head first. Have you factored in the cost of a survey and potential huge investment in getting the boat ready for retirement?


It is, cheapest range for trucking I've found is about 7-10k. Not exactly cheap.

Yes, I am factoring those costs into the planning stages of relocating it. I am fortunate enough that I found a vessel that the owner had just spent a large chunk of $$ refitting it for cruising, but then due to life circumstances had to sell.

So the vessel is in excellent cruising shape.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

midwesterner said:


> Hey I say congratulations and best of luck. You have an adventure ahead. Thanks for posting an update. I'd love to hear more updates as your adventure unfolds.


You bet! I would like to share the adventure with the people here. This is a great community site, and I'm gaining heaps of knowledge from it.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

TQA said:


> Good luck.
> 
> Come back and tell us how it gos.
> 
> BUT GET A SURVEY AND INSIST ON A SEA TRIAL


Absolutely. I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> If you are not listening to the pitchfork brigade then you should remove those artificial timelines from your mind.
> 
> You don't learn sailing by looking at a boat on a dock.
> 
> Go west, young man. Go east. Go south and north... And show those folks where they can shove their pitchfork! :grin :grin


Ha! Thanks Mark,

The timeline is just an artificial construct for conversation purposes. I'll take however much time it takes to get familiar and comfortable with her. I just tossed a year out there, it's a meaningless number.

Very true, but crawl before you walk, so I'll take it easy and safely, with great care.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

chef2sail said:


> Did I miss it?
> Have you done a survey?


Hi Chef,

No, you have not missed yet. I haven't done a survey yet, I've been busy lining up stuff on my end (boat slip, insurance, etc etc) but a survey will come very soon.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

Minnewaska said:


> Unless you find you're the type that enjoys working on a boat, more than sailing it (and those people are abundant in this sport), you should get out there and sail her.
> 
> I'm not a Gulfstar pro, but I understand their build quality has been all over the spectrum, from very poor to very good, depending on model and year. Be sure you're not getting a false economy and comparing a model/year with a poor reputation to values from years with a good rep. If it's one with poor build quality, you too will have a hard time selling her, without dramatic discounting.


You are correct sir, they did have a spotty track record, so I've done my homework, and the model I'm pursuing falls into the very good category. That being said, I'll the surveyor give me the real scoop on it.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

mstern said:


> Not a single one of us is in your shoes, so none of us can or should second guess you here (too much anyway). I am hoping the boat turns out to be all you want, and that your adventure is all you dreamed it would be. Please check back in and let us know if the survey and purchase work out, and how it's all going.


..So am I. Everything in life is a gamble of one sort or another, so I'm hoping I'm making an educated gamble on this. 

Absolutely, it will be fun to chronicle my boat buying journey on this thread. It's the least I can do!


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## Caribbeachbum (Feb 23, 2014)

While chasing your dreams is fun, sometimes you really just have to go ahead and catch them. I wish you the best!


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

Caribbeachbum said:


> While chasing your dreams is fun, sometimes you really just have to go ahead and catch them. I wish you the best!


Agreed!..If you aim for the moon, but miss, you'll have hit pretty high. If you aim for the 3 feet off the ground and miss, well meh. 

So I'm shooting for the moon.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

As I have another thread going on here with a little bit of crossover, I would like to reassure the fine folks here that while what I'm contemplating might be crazy (and I'm well aware that it is), I do have a method to my madness... so to reiterate..

The idea behind getting a boat this large is that the primary usage at first will be to just be a liveaboard. Having grown up on gulfstars, I really appreciate what they bring to the table in terms of roominess and comfort. Two, most of the time, it will be docked. When I decide to use it, it will be motor only for a while, as I'm skill-building. Gulfstars have often been called powerboats that can also sail. I semi agree with that.

To the point of skill-building, I've been taking sailing classes on smaller vessels for the last several years. I will continue to do so for the foreseeable future, until the time when I feel comfortable with my skill set. I will NEVER take the gulfstar out without other qualified people with me (such as my stepdad, who's a master level sailor, and who gave me the sailing bug as a kid) and will only do short trips for the next (insert however many years it takes to be self sufficient here) x amount of time. 

I completely understand people's hesitations at my taking on this venture. The boat repair is expensive. The risk of injury is high (with a person of limited experience), boat's are a constant drain on the bank account, sailing requires a complex set of skills..etc etc... 

I'm crunching the numbers. I'm doing my homework (that's why I'm here). I'm making plans and figuring stuff out. No, I don't have it all figured out, no, I don't have all the boating experience here that many of you do, but I'm a very determined person, and I don't take stuff lightly and I give stuff 200% of my focus and energy, and as such, I'm usually very successful at things I attempt. This will be no different, as failure is not an option (my life, and other people's lives, could depend on it).

I'm off my soapbox now. We can go back to you all telling me what an idiot I am for attempting this. Ha Ha. 

Love you all, mean it.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Many sailors end up with a much larger boat than they began with. So the idea that one can eliminate some or all of the intermediate steps is not a bad idea per se. I suppose most see those steps as part of a process of learning about sailing... and there's all sorts of sailing... learning about boat systems... and the do vary from boat to boat and finding the size boat which meets their "comfort" needs. Of course longer LWL means a short passage time as well and there is a lot to be said for that. All of the "big is better" comes at a price and it's not a linear progression either, more like a geometrical progression. And another factor is that trading up will al most always involve some manner of financial loss. We don't get back the improvements we put into a boat... nor the time we spent doing those... only do have to do them again.

You could learn about what size works for you by sailing on other people's boats, or perhaps chartering. Don't forget our space and comfort needs may change as we get older, such as younger being more tolerant of "camping" conditions. But the process of finding the right size by trial will and should take some time. If you do it on OPB you can also pick the brains of the skippers who own and operate those boats. One thing is a constant. You will never complete your "to do" boat list. And I suppose a bigger boat means a longer list. So unless you have deep pockets and pay others for the work, expect a bigger boat to consume more of your time in maintenance than a smaller one.

Try to find the "sweet spot" and stick with it. And that sweet spot size will be determined by multiple factors of varying importance.

+++

As I might have mentioned I had no idea what size boat I would need and my first and only boat was a 36 with a lot of interior volume (comfort) but relatively small tankage. In terms of "comfort" I only miss a walk around stand up double berth. The V is used as a storage closet!. I find I can get the fuel and water I need easily because these services are available all over the place (where I sail). For offshore passage I have to take extra or use a water maker which are fine solutions. We don't entertain many for over nighters but we can comfortably accommodate a couple and that's all I would want on board actually. More is too crowded.. except for a day sail. So in the end I decided not to move up in size and accepted the downside along with a plethora of benefits. I am very happy with that decision and have had a 33 yr love affair which is still strong! What do they say???? Familiarity makes the heart grow stronger.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I used to sail dinghies.


In a dinghy. 


I sail a 39 footer in a 39 footer. 
Learning to go astern in a 39 footer is difficult in a dinghy. 

To learn to drive a ship one starts in a ship, don't they? 

To learn to ride a horse do you ride a horse? 

But to learn to drive a car you must must start in go-karts, don't you??


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I used to sail dinghies.
> 
> In a dinghy.
> 
> ...


Well sure.... but some things ARE learned incrementally. I don't think you start in a Boeing 750 if being a commercial pilot is your goal.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

SanderO said:


> Well sure.... but some things ARE learned incrementally. I don't think you start in a Boeing 750 if being a commercial pilot is your goal.


You start in a plane with an engine. Not a glider.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

If you plan to drive rail trains pulling 300 cars...do you first start at the kiddie ride park on weekends?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

OK guys... enough with the analogies. For those who want to get right on with it... go for it. There is no law preventing it in recreational boating. Go for it (at your own peril of course). See how well you do with insurance.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

...The analogies are fun... I've been enjoying them immensely. 


I would like to let you all know that I have been taking everything people have said to heart. Since the pressure to move the boat is off, I'm going to keep it where it is for a while. Give me time to shake it out, prep it, and when the time is right, relocate it. 

Worst case, should I miss out on this opportunity, there will be others.. so I'm not sweating it. I've already learned a ton from this whole experience, so on that alone, it's been worth it.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

I think the thing that shocks the most of us is Sailnetters is the what appears to be cavalier approach you are taking to buying a boat. For many here the decision to buy a boat and which boat is a huge decision. The passion and commitment needed to own their boats is a serious commitment that may require some sacrifices in other places in their life.

Some examples

I worked alongside a guy in his late 60s that owned a Beneteau 37, he bought new, he needed to work to pay the note but "at least while I am up here working he had a nice boat to sleep on." 
I traveled 5000 miles to pick up my last boat. 
I am sure others can share stories of what they went through to buy their last boat or sacrifices they make to own one.

To see someone impulse buy a 50+ foot boat is shocking. It sounds like you are ready to own a boat and can afford it. A new to you 50 foot boat may provide some surprises in the 5 figure range, which is scary to some, but if you can afford it more power to you. There are worse things to spend money on and more outrageous impulse buys. It's just not the norm on Sailnet.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

SanderO said:


> Well sure.... but some things ARE learned incrementally. I don't think you start in a Boeing 750 if being a commercial pilot is your goal.


No one learns to fly a Boeing 750, because they don't exist.

Military pilots learn to fly in a basic plane like a Cessna then move to an in between plane and at about 100 hours they are flying F-18s. This military example is an exception to the rule because these are exceptional adept people that get weeded out if they don't meet the standards.

Generally pilots work there way up the ranks of plane size but there are plenty of examples of skipping steps, like people getting hired into the right seat of a jet at 250 hours.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The military analogy has some merit. Most specifically the point about identifying and weeding out aptitude. Some just have the wiring to pick certain things up faster than others and the military wants those, among a few other traits. This is the case with sailing, as well, I believe. For some, it will be more natural and, for others, it may take longer, but they could be as competent in time. Training advice that caters to the lowest common denominator will work for all, but is not necessary for all. Of course, no one has the apititude to jump to the top of the pile immediately, it’s a question of pace.

For whatever it’s worth, few military programs begin in single engine pistons anymore. Ironically, the first single engine trainer is a turbo prop, which would be considered a level that many private pilots never achieve. Maybe similar to starting above the level of dinghy sailing.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Getting hired to fly the co pilots seat in a commercial jet with 250 hours would be very rare. 2000 hours is more usual and even then jobs are hard to find.

With 250 hours you are much more likely to start here

bush pilots

and even then competition is fierce.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

TQA said:


> Getting hired to fly the co pilots seat in a commercial jet with 250 hours would be very rare. 2000 hours is more usual and even then jobs are hard to find.
> 
> With 250 hours you are much more likely to start here
> 
> ...


While is not common hiring a low hour pilot into a jet is not common it does happen. There are a lot of extenuating circumstances where this happens, the usual is some connection to the hiring organization, aircraft owner's nephew, or the applicant is a young female and both the Captain or plane owner is a dirty old man, look up Gulfstream Girl. Other situations include a lousy schedule or poor pay for the right seater, so qualified applicants will turn down a job. These only happens in corporate aviation where there almost no government oversight or mandated standards. The one difference with flying most jets is it requires two pilots, hopefully at least one person knows what they are doing, the other can learn over time, a private boat only needs one person to operate it and like corporate aviation there is no oversight or standards, hopefully that person knows what they are doing.

Aviation has done a complete turn around in the last 5 years. The fierce competition is on the airlines and aircraft owners to keep pilots butts in the cockpit.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Pretty sure the OP said he came from a sailing family, his folks owned a Gulfstar 47 when he was a kid. Most adults I know who sailed regularly as kids are pretty competent boat operators. Head and shoulders above somebody who just took a few ASA courses as an adult and maybe crewed as rail meat a few times around the cans.

I know several dockside liveaboard who do just fine on bigger boats without a lot of previous boat ownership experience. 

He also said he plans to motor sail. Motoring around on a boat isn't really that hard provided you have a firm grasp of the fundamentals.

If he was talking about becoming a performance sailor, yes for sure, get a dinghy, scow, beach cat, tri or sport boat, but that doesn't really seem to be his interest. He wants to motor sail/live aboard. For live aboard purposes, a big boat can be a lot more comfortable than a little boat.

I think the plan sounds reasonable as presented.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I wonder if a trawler makes more sense... might have better accommodation plan and certainly be faster than a sailboat motoring.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

jephotog said:


> I think the thing that shocks the most of us is Sailnetters is the what appears to be cavalier approach you are taking to buying a boat. For many here the decision to buy a boat and which boat is a huge decision. The passion and commitment needed to own their boats is a serious commitment that may require some sacrifices in other places in their life.
> 
> Some examples
> 
> ...


..It might be scary to some, and I understand that. I also have no problem being "on the edge" of sailnet, actually I kind of like that.. Matches my *cough* edgy *cough* personality. A little background on me, I've come from big everything. Big houses. Big boats (had both a 47 and 60' gulfstar as a kid). Bought a 5 bedroom house for myself and my cat. Not bragging, nor implying that I'm rich, just explaining that small isn't really a concept I embrace. Never have, probably never will. The time I've spent on newport 30's just feels cramped and clausterphobic to me.

Taking a cavalier approach doesn't have to mean reckless and stupid though, so yes, I definitely will exercise some caution.

p.s, SaunderO, thanks, but no thanks on the trawler... blegh.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

*Update:*

So after crunching the numbers for a couple of weeks now on this deal, due to many, many factors, I've decided to throw in the towel on this particular deal. The logistics of getting it from there to here are just working out to be far too much trouble, given all the factors involved. Will freely admit, feeling pretty deflated about it, but will press on and look for other interesting vessels more close to home.

Which means I'm going to have to expand my horizons. While a GS is really my type of boat, due to lack of supply, I suppose it won't hurt to look at some catalina's / morgans / and the likes. This is unfamiliar territory to me, but the show must go on.

To circumvent a potential next question, no, I have no idea what I'm looking at in catalina's / morgans or freedoms. So I'm going to do some homework and see what they have.

I seriously appreciate everyone's input on this thread. It has been incredibly enlightening. 

Beers on me :cheers


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

It's boat show season in many parts of the country. Go look at and walk on boats.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

loxxSail2 said:


> *Update:*
> 
> So after crunching the numbers for a couple of weeks now on this deal, due to many, many factors, I've decided to throw in the towel on this particular deal. The logistics of getting it from there to here are just working out to be far too much trouble, given all the factors involved. Will freely admit, feeling pretty deflated about it, but will press on and look for other interesting vessels more close to home.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that loxx. But if there is one thing that I've found in the wonderful world of boat shopping, it's that there's always another great deal to be had, and always more choices. I can't tell you how many times I found the perfect boat, only to be foiled in my purchase plans by something. Oh, the regret! Oh, the anguish over the lost opportunity! And then, a couple of months later, there she is... the next perfect boat! Amazing. Never fails. I've come to view it as part of the fun.

Oh and fwiw, I was never "shocked" by your plans. You sound like a careful guy who has a background in boats. I applaud your implementation of your dream. Go for it.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

mstern said:


> Sorry to hear that loxx. But if there is one thing that I've found in the wonderful world of boat shopping, it's that there's always another great deal to be had, and always more choices. I can't tell you how many times I found the perfect boat, only to be foiled in my purchase plans by something. Oh, the regret! Oh, the anguish over the lost opportunity! And then, a couple of months later, there she is... the next perfect boat! Amazing. Never fails. I've come to view it as part of the fun.
> 
> Oh and fwiw, I was never "shocked" by your plans. You sound like a careful guy who has a background in boats. I applaud your implementation of your dream. Go for it.


Sort of like unmarried people in the dating game...


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

SanderO said:


> Sort of like unmarried people in the dating game...


too true!

I read an interesting articles a few years ago about how the "symptoms" of love mimic those of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Not a very romantic viewpoint, but you can't argue with facts!

And I'll bet every one on Sailnet has felt the same way about a boat at one time or another. Fortunately, it's easier in every way to change boats than it is to change partners...


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

loxxSail2 said:


> .. I've come from big everything. Big houses. Big boats (had both a 47 and 60' gulfstar as a kid). Bought a 5 bedroom house for myself and my cat. Not bragging, nor implying that I'm rich, just explaining that small isn't really a concept I embrace.
> 
> Taking a cavalier approach doesn't have to mean reckless and stupid though, so yes, I definitely will exercise some caution.


By most standards you are rich. I know what it costs to live in Socal. I chose to leave so I could retire early and move to my big house in the mountains. If you were truly rich you would put Capta on salary, describe what you want and send him around the world to find it and bring it back home to you.

You mentioned before feeling cramped in a Newport 30, I agree. There are a lot of boats between a 30 footer and a 50 footer, 20 whole feet worth. Check out some of the in between sized boats. Here is just one example.
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1983/Ericson-38-3143915/REDONDO-BEACH/CA/United-States#.W0ytPS2ZOU0

Since you are considering live aboard look at joining a yacht club, it may make it easier to get a liveaboard slip and the amenities of the yacht club and possibly cheaper slip fees may make it a good investment. I was checking out Yacht Clubs in the area, Long Beach Yacht Club looked nice, just out of my budget though.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

mstern said:


> Fortunately, it's easier in every way to change boats than it is to change partners...


Sometimes you have to sell your boat to change partners. A nice C&C 35 just sold in San Diego for $20,000 in a "divorce forces sale."


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

SanderO said:


> Sort of like unmarried people in the dating game...


Hahahah.. omg, I never thought about it like that, but I've done quite well in the dating game, so yeah, I suppose I should think of it in those terms..

..Nothing to worry about, because another (great boat opportunity) will come along in 5min...


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

So many fish in the sea...


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

jephotog said:


> By most standards you are rich. I know what it costs to live in Socal. I chose to leave so I could retire early and move to my big house in the mountains. If you were truly rich you would put Capta on salary, describe what you want and send him around the world to find it and bring it back home to you.
> 
> You mentioned before feeling cramped in a Newport 30, I agree. There are a lot of boats between a 30 footer and a 50 footer, 20 whole feet worth. Check out some of the in between sized boats. Here is just one example.
> https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1983/Ericson-38-3143915/REDONDO-BEACH/CA/United-States#.W0ytPS2ZOU0
> ...


Living in So Cal is nuts. If I sold my house and could make my current salary in (insert some easterly state here), I probably would be considered "well off". In So CA though, what I make/have is "average".. which is ridiculous, the cost of living is outrageous here.

I will definitely check out the yacht club.. what a great idea..

thanks!


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

New update:

So, after much thought, I've found a local boat that I'm putting an offer out on, and this should make more than a few people around here breath a collective sigh of relief, it's much smaller than my original quest. 

So without further ado, this one is an Islander 36. It's in fantastic shape (or so it appears), and it's located within a quarter mile of where my slip will be, so you can't beat that.

Once the deal goes though I'll post some pics. Smaller than I originally was aiming? Yes. However that's not a bad thing and she's actually not to bad, space-wise down below, so I think I'll get used to it. Plus it will be a great boat to "sharpen my skills on"...


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

I think a 36 footer is a great size and the Islanders review well. Good luck with the survey and finalization.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Hope the survey goes well and you enjoy her!


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

...So here's an update.

I'll try to keep it as non-negative as possible.

3 months into trying to buy a boat, and I'm no closer to getting one than when I started.

2 blown boat deals thanks to unscrupulous boat owners and brokers, enormous amounts of time wasted. Buying my house was *waaaay* easier. 

So far the whole experience is leaving a really bad taste in my mouth... but I'm not a quitter, so the search goes on.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sorry to hear that. The process can be frustrating for exactly those reasons. 

I'll just throw out there a suggestion to think about your expectations and goals and be sure they are realistic. I'm definitely not saying they aren't. Just sometimes these can be a limiter. I would also suggest you consider engaging a broker to help, that might have more experience in seeing the land mines. A good broker is also hard to find, but references help. Just be loyal to them for a defined period of time, so they don't think they'll do a ton of work for you and then dumped. If they don't deliver in say 6 months, cut 'em loose, if you like, and find another.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

loxxSail2 said:


> ...So here's an update.
> 
> I'll try to keep it as non-negative as possible.
> 
> ...


Most of us have "been there, done that." It took me 6 months for my first boat, and I had several offers rejected for which I had sales data on comparable boats that showed my offers were fair. A few of those boats sold a year later for less money than I offered - but the boat owners got to use their boats for another year, so in their eyes it must have been worth it to them. Many boat owners don't actually need/want to sell, so will hang on for the right price. If your surveyor finds something wrong, their attitude may be "it never bothered me, so I'll keep the boat if you don't want it."

Buying a boat IS much harder than buying a house. Housing is a huge market, and heavily regulated. Mortgage companies want to ensure their money is going to a worthy property, so they require termite, mechanical, and all sorts of other inspections. Municipalities want to issue a CO to ensure it's up to code, which means more inspections. The tiny boat market is relatively unregulated, so it's buyer beware.

Since you haven't supplied details, this is purely speculative, but I suspect that you've fallen into the "bargain hunters trap." You go through listings and pick the cheapest boats in their size range so you can get the most boat possible for the money. ("Big everything," as I recall.) Later on, after you've invested time and money (perhaps with a surveyor) you find out why the boat is so cheap. From your perspective, the brokers and owners are unscrupulous. From their perspective, it's "that's why we gave you such a good price."

I'm not going to re-read this whole thread, but if you're buying through Yachtworld, I'd suggest you get a feel for the price ranges for the boat you're interested in, and start to look at the middle or upper range of prices. Then call the broker - many will tell you if a boat is overpriced and/or the owner is dreaming. Many will also tell you which of their sellers are motivated or unmotivated. The motivated ones are usually the ones you can bargain with. Also find out how long a boat has been on the market (too long and it' a bad sign - may have even failed a couple of surveys), and keep an eye out for new listings, since the best boats at a fair price do go quickly.

Or you can keep bottom fishing (if my speculation is right) and get the same results.

Just my advice, FWIW.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Ironically, I experienced the flip side of this coin while trying to sell my current boat. In two years of it being on the market, I have had 5 couples that were somewhat interested, but none of them had enough money to purchase the boat, and their credit was so bad they couldn't obtain a loan from any lending institution. One potential buyer wanted to know if he could purchase it using his credit card, which was already way overdrawn. Are you kidding me?

Knowing that I only have a short time to live, I talked with my son last week about disposing of the boat after my death. He said he would take care of this for me and find it a good home.

Good luck,

Gary


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

TakeFive said:


> Most of us have "been there, done that." It took me 6 months for my first boat, and Many boat owners don't actually need/want to sell..


I think this might actually be the case.. seems crazy to me, but I'm starting to think half of the owners I've made offers on their boat *don't* actually want to sell. What's even worse, I think a portion of them may just be collecting info for boat brokers, building a client list. :|



TakeFive said:


> Buying a boat IS much harder than buying a house. Housing is a huge market, and heavily regulated.


As I am rapidly learning. It's a sad world we live in.. :wink



TakeFive said:


> Since you haven't supplied details, this is purely speculative, but I suspect that you've fallen into the "bargain hunters trap." You go through listings and pick the cheapest boats in their size range so you can get the most boat possible for the money.


Incorrect Sir. Yes, I am shopping for "good deals" but I am by no means aiming for the lowest priced boat I can find. I've learned enough already to avoid those, and I'm getting pretty savvy now at what constitutes a good boat deal.

The competition here for good deals on liveaboard boats is fierce. I've found a number of excellent boats that I've had to compete against unscrupulous boat owners and boat brokers (often writing way over full price offers on them) and still lose out due to too much competition. I suppose if you're a boat seller, that's a good problem to have.. ha ha.

So No, I'm not bottom-feeding, just looking for the right boat that fits my needs. Unfortunately, too many other people are looking for the same thing. :|:wink

The hunt goes on.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

If you’ve often put offers over asking price and still not secured the deal on any, something is way off. That can happen, but not often in this market. 

On another point, I can give first hand knowledge of a buddy’s boat which is for sale. He put a price on it that I don’t think it’s worth, by some margin. If he gets it, he’ll sell. If he doesn’t, he won’t. I’ve considered using the approach, as I’m on the fence over refitting or rebuying and an approach like this could decide for me.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

You’ve described sellers as unscrupulous a couple of times. Please provide details.

A seller’s market that’s so hot that owners are turning down offers above asking price is hard to believe. Something is not adding up here.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

TakeFive said:


> You've described sellers as unscrupulous a couple of times. Please provide details.
> 
> A seller's market that's so hot that owners are turning down offers above asking price is hard to believe. Something is not adding up here.


Ok, example #1. I had a signed contract with an owner on an I36, and the owner "decided" *after* signing the contract (and agreeing to the terms / sale price) that he no longer wanted to sell. So he did everything in his power to kill the deal.

Legally I could have taken him to court, but for the price of the boat, and the amount of time/energy that would have cost me, wasn't worth it, so I let it go.

example #2.
Wrote an over full price offer a morgan oi 36, (due to high competition for the boat), and I'm pretty sure the listing broker "sandbagged" me and decided to play the offers off of each other to get the maximum amount of commision. I had my broker talk to the listing broker (during the offer process) and that's the best thing we can piece out, as I specifically made my offer attractive enough to remove the competition, yet I still lost out.

example #3.
Wrote an offer on a o'day 37, seller tells me it's a done deal, just needs to "check with the wife".. while I'm waiting for him to respond with the info to transfer the full payment, he stalls a day, then he casually tells me he sold it some other person who he showed it to 2 days before me (who apparently was having funding issues, which I have none of). Had he mentioned he had another interested party, I wouldn't have wasted x amount of time writing an offer etc etc.

..So to this point, I'm not having a great track record with sellers / brokers. It was mentioned that this industry is unregulated, and I'm seeing the effects of that. Pretty shady stuff seems to be going on a lot.

What I'm discovering is that I'm getting pretty good at finding good boat deals and as such, there is VERY stiff competition for them because if I can find them, other people can too and it turns into a fight to get them.

I'll bet the market is much cooler for boats over 50k, but since I'm looking in the 20-40k range, that area is very hot right now and they sell fast.


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## tschmidty (Sep 25, 2008)

You didn't put your location in your profile, but I think I read socal earlier? (hint update your profile!)

One thing to consider is expanding your search outside local markets, even looking at inland lakes. Yes you need to take into account transportation costs, but my guess is you will find areas with a lot less competition and more motivated sellers. Someone else can probably chime in but if you find the right boat at cost even spending a few thousand to transport it to you would be worthwhile.

Seatchtempest is a site that will allow you to search craigslist ads over an area and could be helpful.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

Thank you for that suggestion, I'm not familiar with that site, I will definitely check it out.

I will also update my profiles, just been super busy lately, so haven't been on here as much as I'd like. 

Well, yes, there are a ton of great boats in other locations, but the transportation costs really do (at least for me) make most of them unreasonable, unless I really undershot my boat range by a lot and then I'm probably not going to find a vessel that checks all (or most) of my boxes.

For grins tonight though, I'll give it a shot and see how low I could find similar boats to what I've been looking for here in CA. Will be a fun exercise at least. 

thanks for the info!


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Sorry to hear you're having so much frustration, loxx. 

I get the impression left coast prices in general are higher, but maybe it's worth looking at the whole coast? Delivery costs going south shouldn't be a deal killer if you're already looking at boats about 25k. Maybe BC boats because of the $CDN benefit?

Two other thoughts: you can try getting recommendations for brokers who are very straight and professional, and then see if you can buy off their listings. Second, get in touch with any clubs and see if you can get an inside scoop on boats coming up for sale, maybe in the process building a direct connection with the seller.

I had such a positive experience with my seller's broker (Williams & Smithells of England/Greece), sucks to hear other people are getting messed over.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

Hey Zed,

That's not a bad idea, thanks for the suggestion. Well I suppose it's just how it goes, you find a good deal, chances are other people want it too. I was pretty surprised however to see just how much apparent (or not so apparent) shady stuff goes on with brokers out here, greed is an ugly thing. 

However it was not my intention to vent or be overly negative on this forum.. the people and info here are fantastic, so I just keep pluggin' along trying to find a boat. 

My limited experience with delivery costs so far is that they are a deal breaker, at least for me. 

The first boat I found was up in WA and I'm down in CA which is about a 1200 nm trip, downwind. The delivery costs alone were going to add another 10-15k to the boat price, pushing it out of my budget (as the price of the boat was already near my maximum spend). 

Florida seems to have a very nice selection of boats, but the cost of relocating one from there would be astronomical I would think, so it's really out of the question. So I try to limit my searches to areas I can physically get to within driving distance.. which narrows the playing field a lot.

Fair Winds!


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## neoxaero (Feb 18, 2010)

A lot of responses on this, so I'll just throw in my .02. 

Buy the smallest boat you're comfortable with. A 50ft boat is going to cost considerably more in every aspect. If it takes working for 10 more years to buy the 50ft boat and have the money in savings to cruise, why not spent considerably less on a smaller boat and go much sooner?

I'm trying to go cruising as soon as I possibly can. I've treated my body like complete **** my entire life, and now in my mid 30's all the broken bones and soft tissue damage is catching up to me. I don't imagine I'll be getting around well enough in my 50's-60's to want to go cruising and walk every where. Seems that age will be better spent back in cubical world, earning a living to pay for my nursing home care :laugh


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## Brandon Davis (Jul 19, 2015)

loxxSail2 said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> So I'm thinking about possibly(probably/most definitely) making a (potentially) huge mistake..Or maybe, the best decision of my life. Part of this question (which I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to, but I'd like to hear other opinions), will have some philosophy mixed in.
> 
> ...


Go now. You could die tomorrow. Anyone could. Not to be grim, just saying. "YOLO" as they say.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

Brandon Davis said:


> Go now. You could die tomorrow. Anyone could. Not to be grim, just saying. "YOLO" as they say.


Trying to. Buying a boat has been much more of a wild ride than I ever imagined it would be. 4 months in and I still don't have one yet. So hopefully I'll get on with this adventure soon.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

4 months is not a long time to find the right boat. From loose memory, I would say 6 months may have been a personal best and over a year is common.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

Minnewaska said:


> 4 months is not a long time to find the right boat. From loose memory, I would say 6 months may have been a personal best and over a year is common.


Fascinating. One wouldn't think it would take that much time. So I guess I'm on track then.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I just finished crewing on a 60' boat. 50' is WAY too much boat for me, even if money is not a consideration. With a smaller boat everything is more manageable, especially when you run into heavy weather or tight parking spot in the marina. People who think they need a space of a 50' boat likely need to organize better. I'm looking for a boat in the 35 to 38' range. Just go sailing on a boat that big (as in chartering one for a few days) and see how you like it. It might save you a bunch of time and money. There's nothing like the real thing, sailing one.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

loxxSail2 said:


> Trying to. Buying a boat has been much more of a wild ride than I ever imagined it would be. 4 months in and I still don't have one yet. So hopefully I'll get on with this adventure soon.


c$

4 months isn't very long actually. Maybe Nature is trying to slow you down a little so you do some real comparisons . Looking for Haleakula took 8 months to a year.


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## joshoa mark (Sep 11, 2018)

"Don't put off until tomorrow what you can do today."


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

Words or Wisdom
"Don't put off till tomorrow what you can put off to the next day"..... Charlie Utter


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

It took me a year to find my Morgan 33 Out Island, and I drove more than 5,000 miles around the nation looking at them, none of which I liked. Turned out that the boat I was looking for was just 50 miles from home. For what I do, cruising and day sails, my boat is the best thing since sliced bread, IMO. And, I just reorganized my main locker, cleaned out a lot of stuff I really didn't need aboard the boat, and I now have more storage space than I thought possible. 

I was talking with one of our forum members, Ferrett Chaser (Michael) who has crossed the Atlantic several times. I asked if my Morgan was capable of making the trip. He said, "Absolutely! I would have no problem taking that boat to the Med and beyond." Unfortunately, I'm just too damned old and busted up to make that trip anymore. If I were just 20 years younger, 58, I would be headed for Ibiza to play music with a friend of mine for the entire winter, then head home. Oh well!

Good luck on your search,

Gary


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Most recent boat.
30 years to decide which one.
1 year to spec.
1 year to build
After 4 years still figuring her out.


Size and weather. Bigger is better. End of discussion. Only variables are build quality and design.
We are on single handed watches, pretty much going where we want and cooking food from scratch up to 35 kts. By myself I’m ok up to 40 sustained. (I’m a out of shape man in my sixties). With the jsd I’m safe past that. Bigger is better. Safer, better ride, more comfortable and yes I or my wife need everything on her.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Bigger is better. I want a Hylas 70 with hydraulic everything. Destinations unlimited!


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

50+ is way big....


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Bigger is better. I want a Hylas 70 with hydraulic everything. Destinations unlimited!


You're recommending that for someone's first boat?


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

I saw both the Outbound 46 and the Hylas 70 at the Newport Boat show today. Noice. Although both would be big overkill for my plans...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Bigger is better.......only if you can handle it.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have been doing the sdr for awhile now. In this falls sdr I’ll be one of the smaller boats. Sailing systems and design have evolved. Even with a catastrophic power failure I can still single the boat. A lot of it is how it’s designed and how you set it up. Personally know couples in their 80 s sailing their Outbound but it isn’t a new thing. When harbored in Marion decades ago a gentleman in his sixties or seventies was singling his Cherubini 44 without difficulties. We also got friendly with another sailor back in the 1980s who took his 55’ steel from Weymouth MA to Alaska. And of course there’s Phil and American Promise. That’s 30 year old technology now. 
The issue with big boats is docking not sailing.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> You're recommending that for someone's first boat?


LOL. Nah, they didn't make enough of them for anyone else but me.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Minnewaska said:


> Bigger is better. I want a Hylas 70 with hydraulic everything. Destinations unlimited!


Imagine the dinghy you could fit on the foredeck. Tornado, Welsford Pathfinder?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> .....The issue with big boats is docking not sailing.


I agree. Not so much because they are harder to get into the slip, although, they usually do have more windage. Rather, if you're alone, it's impossible to leave the helm and get to the lines fast enough, if the wind is blowing the boat out of place. Two person job for docking.

Surprisingly, I've actually been aboard a sailboat with dual thrusters: one was the traditional tunnel thruster at the bow, but there was also a drop down thruster at the stern. A real stinkpot move.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Don’t understand why that’s not generally available. Many boats have sugarscoops. Should be easy to do. Was it stock on the boat you saw?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

It did seem pretty sweet, if not stinkpot-like. Can’t say if it was stock, it was on hull #1 of the Hylas 70s. I know the boat had several post factory modifications for her owner, who had mobility issues. The only slight downside, was the drop down stern thruster. It took 15-20 seconds to deploy. If you forgot and were already at the slip, it was too late. 

We have a sugar scoop, but the scoop itself is above the waterline. I should have look, but would be surprised if the rudder post wasn’t in the way, then I think I would get into helm linkage.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Follow Attainable Cruising and been looking at the Korvet 14 & 16. There’s a move in both sailboat and motor design to narrow beamed boats of quite significant size that are easily driven requiring less sail or motor power. These boats are set up to be owner operated. Easy on the environment. As distinct from the current emphasis on multiple berths and interior space but rather focused on ride in a seaway and survival in extreme weather. Unlike the joy stick docking of B boats systems are simple and serviceable. Truly appreciate some modern designs address the way cruisers use their boats.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

travlin-easy said:


> It took me a year to find my Morgan 33 Out Island, and I drove more than 5,000 miles around the nation looking at them, none of which I liked. Turned out that the boat I was looking for was just 50 miles from home. For what I do, cruising and day sails, my boat is the best thing since sliced bread, IMO. And, I just reorganized my main locker, cleaned out a lot of stuff I really didn't need aboard the boat, and I now have more storage space than I thought possible.
> 
> I was talking with one of our forum members, Ferrett Chaser (Michael) who has crossed the Atlantic several times. I asked if my Morgan was capable of making the trip. He said, "Absolutely! I would have no problem taking that boat to the Med and beyond." Unfortunately, I'm just too damned old and busted up to make that trip anymore. If I were just 20 years younger, 58, I would be headed for Ibiza to play music with a friend of mine for the entire winter, then head home. Oh well!
> 
> ...


I have looked a couple of Morgan OI's myself and they are very nice. That sounds like a fun trip, I wouldn't mind doing that! 

Thanks Gary, I'm still on the hunt.. =D


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

A 50 ft boat is enormous. I would not go there.
Buy yourself a decent 36 ft heavy displacement cutter (or similar) with a long keel and it will do everything you want, and you will be able to handle it alone, or with another crew member, with some practice.
And it will cost far less to buy and run than a 50 ft beast.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

Hey Gang,

One last entry into this tale, I have *FINALLY* gotten my hands on a boat. Woot!.. 

I snapped up a 1970 Columbia 39, in great shape. She needs a few minor things, but for a vessel of her age, it's to be expected. 

Feels good to be able to bring some closure to this thread, so i've attached a couple of pics for your enjoyment.

Looking forward to one day sailing this beast, but in the meantime, starting slow, just motoring it, running drills, getting used to the systems, etc etc. 

Exciting times ahead....Fair Winds,
~Nick


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

loxxSail2 said:


> Hey Gang,
> 
> One last entry into this tale, I have *FINALLY* gotten my hands on a boat. Woot!..
> 
> ...


Congratulations Nick,

Now you can start a how to fix this thread.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

loxxSail2 said:


> Hey Gang,
> 
> One last entry into this tale, I have *FINALLY* gotten my hands on a boat. Woot!..
> 
> ...


Exciting times indeed! Congratulations! She does look to be in exceptional shape for a 1970.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

jephotog said:


> Congratulations Nick,
> 
> Now you can start a how to fix this thread.


Thank you! Ha! You're right, I could. I'm actually fixing the first couple of issues with it as we speak. Needs upper shroud rigging work and also the mast tension rod is being removed and updated with a more modern replacement.

Then there's a minor leak in the diesel engine, I'll have that fixed and after that, she's pretty good to go.


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## loxxSail2 (Jul 2, 2018)

mstern said:


> Exciting times indeed! Congratulations! She does look to be in exceptional shape for a 1970.


Thank You! 

Yes, the previous owners really took good care of her, as this was in their family for many, many years. It needs a little tlc, but overall, nothing that isn't expected for a boat of her age. So I'm pretty jazzed that it's light on crucial stuff right off the bat.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Congrats. That's a whole lotta boat!


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