# Gale Sail or just reef the jib in strong winds? (SF Bay)



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

It's looking like being a windy summer in SF Bay so I'm thinking of the sail plan for winds in the 30-40 range. Up to 30 I use the first reef, and maybe furl the jib to 75% to 85% or so (full size is 100%). 

Then we have the second reef in the main. The question is, with it, to just furl the jib more, to say 50%? The problem is I don't think the shape is good then. The other weekend in the slot the jib was heavily furled and was making all sorts of flapping and noise. It just didn't look or feel right. 

So I was thinking of the Gale Sail for days when it gets really snotty. Will the fact that the main is reefed to about 50% of its size when double-reefed, and the Gale Sail will be 25%, cause problems with weather helm?

What do other sailors use when it's blowing hard?


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Yeah, I have the same problem...like you, double reefed in the slot, wondering what to do with the jib...when 50% furled the shape is so bad it doesn't help the overall airflow, is ugly, noisy, and probably stresses the sail. I am torn between a Gale Sail and a storm jib...I have heard that the Gale Sail is so thick over the furled sail that the windage is a problem. Would welcome comments from folk.

A storm jib on a baby/inner stay seems like the optimal solution (except that I don't have one).


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

paul323 said:


> Yeah, I have the same problem...like you, double reefed in the slot, wondering what to do with the jib...when 50% furled the shape is so bad it doesn't help the overall airflow, is ugly, noisy, and probably stresses the sail. I am torn between a Gale Sail and a storm jib...I have heard that the Gale Sail is so thick over the furled sail that the windage is a problem. Would welcome comments from folk.
> 
> A storm jib on a baby/inner stay seems like the optimal solution (except that I don't have one).


Have you tried furling the jib just to the point it still has acceptable shape and going to 2 reefs in the main?

Most roller furlers will only keep their shape when reduced around 20% or so, so its not surprising you can't get decent shape with it rolled 1/2 way in.

If you sail in those conditions frequently, maybe you should talk to your sailmaker about a jib with high clew (I think its called a yankee cut) to produce a sail with less area than a standard 100% jib. Other advantages of the high clew are better visability and its clear of the water if conditions are such that you are getting green water over the deck.


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Okay PalmettoSailor, you just opened the door to one of my favorite bits of sailing trivia. Won't solve my or MarkSF's problem, but:

The Yankee sail is basically an equilateral triangle. It can be therefore be hoisted either way up - the head and tack are effectively interchangeable. This led the British (a long time ago) to comment that "even a Yankee can hoist it correctly!", and the name stuck


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

A stout #4

It does get pretty windy here in the spring and fall


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

It doesn't blow 40 in the Bay much. You're looking at a #4 or storm jib going upwind. 40 in an ebb out in the slot is seriously rough and miserable sailing. If you're going out, even though your close to shore, take these conditions very seriously. Talk to a sailmaker. They'll have a good idea about how and what to use to balance your sail plan. Personally, I'd call Pineapple Sails. If you boat has a 'class association' website or the like, I'd give them a shout as well.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I've decided that it is better to use just a good, heavy working jib as my primary foresail. Its small size to start with allows it to keep some shape when furled down. The only time I'll put the Genny on is if I am pretty sure the winds will not get over 15 knots. Trying to roll up a large genoa to reef in a 30 knot wind does not work well because the shape is buried, resulting in a big belly in the center and the foot is raised too high. On the wish list is to rig up an inner forestay/running backstays with a small, Amsteel or wire-luffed jib for storm duty.

For 40 knots, think about an inner stay to keep the center of effort closer to that of the mainsail.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

I think one thing I need to do is properly mark the furler line. Right now, reefing the jib involves some guesswork.

So I have a 100% working jib. Thinking of placing marks on the furling line at 85% and 70% of the full area. Any tips on what to mark the (black) line with?


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Use white thread and whip it up. Or white electrical tape. I like the whipping better.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Oh yes, I have whipping thread. Good idea.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

paul323 said:


> Yeah, I have the same problem...like you, double reefed in the slot, wondering what to do with the jib...when 50% furled the shape is so bad it doesn't help the overall airflow, is ugly, noisy, and probably stresses the sail. I am torn between a Gale Sail and a storm jib...I have heard that the Gale Sail is so thick over the furled sail that the windage is a problem. Would welcome comments from folk.
> 
> A storm jib on a baby/inner stay seems like the optimal solution (except that I don't have one).


The problem is I don't know which I fancy less, changing the jib in the furler in a blow, or installing a Gale Sail in a blow. Both seem unattractive to me. I guess you could install a storm jib at the dock if the forecast is for strong winds. But then I think I ought to just stay at the dock!


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

MarkSF said:


> The problem is I don't know which I fancy less, changing the jib in the furler in a blow, or installing a Gale Sail in a blow. Both seem unattractive to me. I guess you could install a storm jib at the dock if the forecast is for strong winds. But then I think I ought to just stay at the dock!


Indeed! Getting caught offshore in a gale is one thing, CHOOSING to go out in one is not on my list of happy things to do.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

SF Bay isn't offshore. The good thing is there are a number of microclimates around, so you can pretty much pick what you want to deal with. Hit 17 kts in a Moore 24 in the slot years ago on a blowy day. Great fun, but getting uphill and just outside the gate was a washing machine ride for sure. OP, if the forecast is for 35-40, put your 100% on the roller. It's a no brainer...unless you already have a #4.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Mark, have you measured your sail and you are pretty sure it is a 100% or less? I can sail balanced with my blade (95%) and a double reef. There has been only a couple of times when we resorted to taking in a few turns on the furler (Mrs B don’t do 40kts with anything more than a hanky flying). Our blade is 9oz high modulus Dacron and holds its shape well in strong breezes. Is yours getting a little past it’s useful life? The problem with blades is you have nothing off the wind – I like to fly the kite on the return leg back to Alameda. Usually furler line is low grade Dacron like Sta-set, very stretchy. You might want to consider getting some draft tape from a local sailmaker and put “tick” marks on the foot of the sail where you want to furl to. My personal experience with the Gale Sail is it is a PITA to deploy and a Sunbrella UV cover on the jib makes for a lot of friction when you are trying to hoist it.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

If you are in SF bay in conditions requiring a storm jib, you will be at the dock anyway, its an offhore sail (when you cant get off the boat).

Dont mark your jib sheet for furling points, mark the foot of the sail. The furling line length changes whenever you switch sails or rerig. Sew a small piece of black cloth to the foot, as the sailmakers do.

Definitely use both main reefs, and also a small jib. Avoid furling your jib at all if possible as it is a poor solution.

Assuming you have a small jib, here is the sequence I use:
135%, full main
135%, main reef 1
135%, main reef 2
135% only or 100%, full main depending on what's up and how long
100%, main reef 1
100%, main reef 2
100% only
Now its mid-high 30s, time to go home. You can start furling the 100%, but I have never done so personally. over this you need storm sails.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Sorry I was not clear. What I was inferring is that offshore, you have no choice if a gale comes along so you have to deal with it. CHOOSING to go out in 40 knot winds is not usually too wise a move!


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

In my opinion the Gale Sail is a fundamentally bad idea.

Watch the video ATN Sailing Equipment | The Gale Sail | Easy Handling Storm Jib and note the relatively benign conditions. Are you really going to drag that bag forward in 35 or 40 knots? Rig the sheets? Hank that sail on?

See if you can borrow one and hose it down. Get the furled jib wet also. Now try to raise the Gail Sail.

I strongly suggest you get a free-flying storm jib to a hard point on deck. Bag it on deck and run the sheets before you leave the dock on anything more than a day sail.

We lost the furling line offshore last week (I was on delivery) and it took an hour to get the jib down off the furler and lashed on deck. Winds were only in the high 20s and seas only 6 to 8 feet. I was darn glad to have 6'2" 26 year old Nick on board as crew.

We did a lot of crawling - none of that walking stuff from the ATN video.


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## djangodog (Jan 22, 2012)

We were out in the Bay this Spring in solid 30kt winds with gusts in low-mid 40s heading across the slot. I had 2 reefs in the main and the full 100% jib and we were doing fine and were balanced, though any more wind would have altered the equation. Obviously depends on the boat, but I have yet to reef our jib - and based on what folks are suggesting here, when the wind pipes up past 40kt, the choices are dealing with an imperfectly performing reefed jib, or trying to put on a storm jib in those conditions. My leaning is toward dealing with the jib to at least get me to behind Angel Island or Tiburon where it'll almost certainly be a bit more mellow....I'd certainly be on my way home at this point....


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Another option depending upon the boat, is jib only! My boat in 35-40 does pretty well with a 110 up by itself. Then again, it is a masthead config, a fractional may not do as well.

Along with, I am only 28' and 6000 or so lbs, a 40' 15-20K lb rig would have a different config up yet. Some of it will also depend upon the waves, be them short in duration vs longer, etc as to where you might want the sail power to be and how.

Marty


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I used to be a firm believer of just reefing the jib and running on it. I changed my mind after a few good storms at sea.

On my boat, the Main is the best thing to have up, especially ofsshore. I will tell you why. It puts the center of effort in the middle of the boat and after many hours/days you can make to weather without doing a thing. Just get up to speed and follow through with your tack. Easy-cheesy and anything that requires very little effort is worth it when you are worn out. Also, that increases your weather helm and does not decrease it or give you a leward helm which can be a nightmare in a breaking sea and you can broach. Thus, my main is by far my weapon of choice offshore in a storm. Screw the jib. First time you wrap it backwards/backfill it behind itself and have to go forward to get it loose in 10 foot seas, you will curse it. Did that too.

I think storm jibs are a different story because they put the center of effort closer to the middle of the boat. THe are cut to have a small belly but still hold shape for performance. Few people have a true storm jib and most I suspect wouldn't know what to do with one.

I would say just learn to put a couple of reefs in you main and learn the boat. Most sloop rigged boats will perform well that way.

My opinions.

Brian


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Brian,

Not that what works for you, will or will not work for others. I would agree, that OUT in the ocean, the what you need vs SF bay, or puget sound or equal, will be different due to different wave sizes, lengths, timing of the crests etc. 

At the end of the day, what works in the bay, may not work outside of the bay, vs running with or against a tide, vs __________

WHy I say this, I remeber reading an article in Sailing world a few yrs back. Some of the V70 style boats have upwards of 3-4 different sail plans, based on wave height in the same wind 5-10 knot wind band! Granted they have a crew of 15 or so to change out sails etc, cruisers or even some of us local race types do not have that options. BUT< some of that article as led me to believe, there is different ways to setup the how you want to handle gale+ winds!

I would agree, generally speaking, it is good to have some part or portion of the main up vs just a jib, but, some conditions as I mentioned, will work with just a jib also. Hence why I am looking at a #4 or jib in the 80-90% of the fortriangle size, to be in between the 110 and SJ I have, some wind conditions are such, that a double reef and a jib in between would be nice. IE, I have no RF system. 

At the end of the day, not sure their is an absolute right or wrong! but only what works for you in the conditions you are in, what sails you have at your disposal......and the list can go on.

marty


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

It all depends.

There is variation not only between boats but between sail plans on any given boat as blt2ski points out.

I have two headsails, a 100 working jib and a light 135 genoa plus a hank-on staysail with a set of reef points.

Weather helm builds up quickly on Auspicious when she heels more than about 15 degrees, so keeping the boat standing up is important.

With the 100 on the furler the boat sails first working through all three reefs in the main before touching the jib. With all three reefs in the main and full jib the next step is to roll the jib all the way in and raise the staysail (already rigged in the bag on deck as noted earlier).

With the 135 on the furler the boat heels quickly with increasing wind due to the more powerful headsail, so I roll up the genoa to about 85% before starting to reef the main. Pointing deteriorates quickly so I'll shift to the staysail earlier, about the same time as the second reef in the main.

Same boat. Substantially different behavior.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Like I said, I am referencing my boat. But my experience is pretty typical on others too. I have sailed a large variety of boats and yet to find a boat that would change my opinion on this.

I find most sailors are a bit fearsome of the main and do not raise it or work it because it is a PITA to get up or they simply are afraid of it. Not saying anyone here is, but that has been my experience. They simply don't have a good feel for the main and how to properly trim her in light and heavy weather. The exception is good racers and is yet another reason IMHO as a cruiser to get on a race boat and crew and learn. But I digress...

As far as balancing the boat, we all would agree that is the best course of action. But at 35-40+ sustained (isn't that what he was asking) that is some huge winds and I would be down to one sail. Also, in those winds, even on SF bay, I am sure you are taking water over the bow. WHo wants to go forward and hank on that gale sail (not to mention having to take it off). Boat will be heeled over like crazy or rocking all over the place. MOB is a real possibility off the bow because you don't really have a good place to tether on the LLines because you are so far forward. Your working and sliding deck is very minimal. Versus at the mast, you can tie yourself on that mast and are further away from the sea and are at the center of the boat. Also, with the mast you will get to tweek the main and flatten it more. You can take some rake out of the mast, really get that halyard tight and take out a lot on the outhaul. You can also really suck down on that boom vang, drop in a cunningham, the list goes on. You have a lot more options on the mast. On the jib, your basic option is to move the car forward or aft and the sail is what it is. This often leads to a poor sail shape and a leech is flapping badly (if not beginning to chafe) no mattter how tight you suck down on the lecch line. In order to adjust this sail for shape, unless you have a line adjustable jib/genoa track (which most people don't), you have to fall off that POS and adjust the car upwards and backwards until you find the right spot. Once again, you are out in the open on a rolling boat with wet decks in crappy seas. Big pucker factor in those winds and dangerous the mment you step out of the cockpit.

I would suggest instead of a Gale Sail, looking into a trysail. I don't have one. Never needed one. But it is on my very short list now that we are looking at further off destinations. The Gale sail doesn't even make the top 100 of things I would consider after my experiences. Too much leward helm and too much risk putting it up and down. Again, my experience is ocean not SF bay, but the principles seem the same to me, just not the wave action. But I have been in harbors where 4 foot seas breaking over the bows in a storm were common. I would think they would have some wave action in SF bay at those kinds of wind speeds. In fact, it's pobably choppy and crappier than the open ocean.

Regarding the V70, as you mentioned, they have quite a crew and those guys are pros. Most of us do not have that kind of crew and certainly not that experience. So find the safest and easiest thing to use. 

Then again, I would never intentionally sail out into 35-40+. Other than the liklihood of breaking something, I would have crap flying all over down below, kids puking, and wife threatening mutiny. Thos V70 guys have no idea how good they got it!!!

Good discussion. No right or wrong opinions, just opinions.

Brian


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Brian raises a lot of interesting points. I don't agree with his conclusions.

The following is based on lots and lots of reading, professional background, and real world experience. As a delivery skipper I sail a lot of boats with a lot of different sail suites. I've spent more time on the foredeck in pounding seas than I like to think about. 30 years racing foredeck didn't hurt. *grin*



Cruisingdad said:


> But at 35-40+ sustained (isn't that what he was asking) that is some huge winds and I would be down to one sail.


Disagree. 35-40+ is F7 rising 8. One shouldn't have to drop the headsail that early. You won't be able to point without the headsail on most boats and not pointing desperately reduces your options. Starting out with a smaller headsail and having a storm jib or staysail ready to fly on an inner forestay is well advised (well, at least advised by me).



Cruisingdad said:


> Also, in those winds, even on SF bay, I am sure you are taking water over the bow.


Most boats get water over the bow earlier than that. Water over the bow is why I feel so strongly that one has to be rigged for heavy weather long before that rigging is needed. You just can't drag that canvas forward in big weather unless you're on an NA 44 with a full crew of midshipmen.



Cruisingdad said:


> WHo wants to go forward and hank on that gale sail (not to mention having to take it off). Boat will be heeled over like crazy or rocking all over the place. MOB is a real possibility off the bow because you don't really have a good place to tether on the LLines because you are so far forward. Your working and sliding deck is very minimal.


Exactly. See my earlier post on this thread. The Gale Sail is a bad idea.



Cruisingdad said:


> I would suggest instead of a Gale Sail, looking into a trysail.


I don't agree. In my opinion (the above I offer as fact and/or experience - this is opinion), the work of rigging a trysail is substantial. Unless you have a separate track and keep the trysail bagged on deck it simply isn't going to happen for most crews. You're more likely to lose the sail over the side.

The biggest advantage of a trysail is saving the main for use later. If you're willing to risk the main sail (I am) a deep third reef is a good alternative.



Cruisingdad said:


> Then again, I would never intentionally sail out into 35-40+. Other than the liklihood of breaking something, I would have crap flying all over down below, kids puking, and wife threatening mutiny.


Offshore there is more light air than heavy air, but 35 isn't heavy. I see that more often than I would like. I danced with Alberto and Beryl (US East Coast) in the last couple of weeks. None of that counted as heavy weather - sporty, but not heavy. Not my bluewater boat either, just a J/42.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Thanks for all the replies. I have lost interest in the Gale Sail!

Before the discusssion I had assumed that, as I put the first and second reefs in the main, I should be reducing the area of the jib proportionally. However, as I'm starting with just a 100% jib, it seems I should try leaving the jib alone and working through the reefs in the main. I'll give it a go sometime soon.

I do have a 150% but I've found I'm just not using it. The 100% might lose a little performance in light airs but the working jib is so much easier to manage, and visibility is so much better with the high foot, that the 150% has been consigned to the garage at home.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Agree except for using the trysail. I don't have a separate track or a lead-in track. It easy enough to just wrap up the main, take off the slides, and tie the boom down. The key, as you indicated, is in doing it well before it is a circus act to accomplish. I guess being single-handed maybe makes me think ahead a bit more than average but weather/wind prediction is pretty reliable these days. If the weather forecast looks like the wind may rise to a gale, put the damned sail on for that wind immediately. Don't wait for the sea condition to prove it. What are you going to lose, a few minutes over the course of the few hours? It's just not worth it being caught with the wind whipping, green water on the decks, and the boat dangerously heeled and rounding up during puffs trying to switch sails at the last moment while trying to wrestle with the wheel. You may not look cool having that trysail up when the wind is still 20 but you'll be a lot happier than the guy who has to try to douse his sails too late. Dealing with sails in a 40 knot wind is something to avoid.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

MarkSF said:


> Thanks for all the replies. I have lost interest in the Gale Sail!
> 
> Before the discusssion I had assumed that, as I put the first and second reefs in the main, I should be reducing the area of the jib proportionally. However, as I'm starting with just a 100% jib, it seems I should try leaving the jib alone and working through the reefs in the main. I'll give it a go sometime soon.
> 
> I do have a 150% but I've found I'm just not using it. The 100% might lose a little performance in light airs but the working jib is so much easier to manage, and visibility is so much better with the high foot, that the 150% has been consigned to the garage at home.


I keep my 160 in a bag in a locker mostly now but still on the boat. There are long stretches of days during the summer when the wind blows 5 knots. That's when these come in handy along with an asymmetrical spinnaker. I sewed a sun cloth on the 100% working jib last year and it is the sail that normally stays on the furler. My boat has the old inboard blocks for the jib which shape the smaller sail correctly. It will not set right using the Genny track. I do get a bit of flutter because it was designed for short battens which can't, of course, be used with the roller.


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

FWIW, Mark, I also keep my 150 on the boat, and use it as my winter sail. Well, Nov-April typically when it's warm, but the wind is light.

BTW, thanks for starting this thread - and thanks all for your responses- very informative!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

SVAuspicious said:


> Brian raises a lot of interesting points. I don't agree with his conclusions.
> 
> The following is based on lots and lots of reading, professional background, and real world experience. As a delivery skipper I sail a lot of boats with a lot of different sail suites. I've spent more time on the foredeck in pounding seas than I like to think about. 30 years racing foredeck didn't hurt. *grin*
> 
> ...


This is a great discussion. I am enjoying it. I too dissagree with your points (snicker). We have both been there so this is two different opinions.

A really big part of the main up is the ability to make to weather with very little effort. You simply tack through. I do not have the luxury of a lot of crew and typically singlehand. So when I tack through, my only concern is making sure I have the boat speed to follow through (which typicaly is not a problem in those winds... it is slowing the boat down that becomes more of an issue).

I too use a third reef (or the edquivalent). Problem with the third reef is that you have lost so much shape in the sail that you are getting more leward push than forward momentum. In effect, it is hard to point as close. THis becomes an issue based upon the tack as the waves do not always follow directly with teh winds and some tacks are better than others, but in general, being abloe to keep your nose as close to large seas (esp if breaking) is key to me.

When in large seas, for those that have never done it, you will litterally go airborne off the top of a wave. I mean you will litterally come off your feet as the boat drops below you. This takes a steep wave (not a roller) but these are common in the gulf (we call them square waves and they often break). Going forward to screw with anything up there is quite simply dangerous. Doing it at night is really dangerous.

I do have a separate track for a trysail. Many boats do not.

I totally dissagree with your perception that 35-40 sustained is not a big deal. Depending on the fetch, those can be really big seas. If your reefing lines breaks loose or you accidentally jibe, you could blow out that sail or really break some stuff. Remember, 35-40 sustained is just the sustained. You generally get gusts 50% more than that. I know you know this, but I am pointing out that that is green water sailing. The spray that comes off the top of those waves is also hard to see and everything is getting painted an wet.

At 35-40, depending on seas and how the boat is handling, I may leave up some jib to balance the boat. All depends on POS, waves, and direction. But again, at those numbers (sustained) your boat is really heeled over and you are getting a lot more push then pull especially if close hauled. If one has to come down first, it is the jib. I did not used to be that way, but my time in storms changed what works for me.

Regarding having a storm jib on inner forestay, we both agree on that one. As I said, you are putting the fulcrum back into the center of the boat. Leward helm in a storm is a dangerous proposition, esp when the seas are breaking or large.

My boat points pretty well without a headsail. Also, witht he traveller, I have the option of really getting close to the wind. And like I said, you have a lot more of an ability to tweek the main, via outhaul, boom vang, etc. You lack those options on the jib. It basically is what it is, and except for adjusting the cars, your options for flattening or powering the sail rest in easing the sheet.

This next statement is pure theoretical. I have no evidence to back this up than my opinion. But I also feel that a sail on the mast surrounded by shrouds/stays can take a lot more force than a single jib hanked on the forestay where the pressure is more focused on the forestay. Again, total theory with me... what do you think?

Agree about water coming over the bow well before those wind speeds. Another reason I don't like going forward. But most cruising boats have a roller furling jib. Dropping that and pulling on a storm jib would b involved and I know of very few people that carry mutiple jibs to be hanked on. I dont!!

To the Original Poster:

If you routinely sail in heavy winds, get a different jib. Maybe a 110. Instead of wasting money on that gale sail whatchamadugi, go have a cruising chute made. Those are AWESOME! Make sure it is a sock type. You will love it in light airs and you can almost get close hauled. I do not know SF Bay. I was very honest about that. But I will tell you in S Florida, I would use a Cruising chute a hundred times before my poor Gale Sail saw the light of day.

S/V Auspicious: Great discussion!!! Always good to talk to people that know what the heck they are talking about (agree or not!!). That is what makes this place fun. To be clear, I totally respect your opinion and reasoning, even if I don't agree with it all. I don't want to change it. Just giving my experience too and why I do what I do. Kudos.

Brian


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## leclare (May 8, 2006)

Several people mentioned a loose luffed staysail on amsteel or wire.

I have a hard time getting my head around the idea that you could tension it enough to be effective to weather.

Does that work as a storm sail?

Anybody out there with lots of heavy weather experience with that?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Several people mentioned a loose luffed staysail on amsteel or wire.
> 
> I have a hard time getting my head around the idea that you could tension it enough to be effective to weather.
> 
> ...


3/8" dyneema has 10,000#+ rating, all you have to do is figure a way to tension it. An inner jib on a continuous pc. of Dyneema can be rigged as a Solent stay or a shorter stay with running backstays and even be set and tensioned right from the cockpit. The latter is on my wish/to-do list.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

My referencing the V70's was only to show, that they have more than one sail plan option for a given set of wind speeds. Granted IIRC they are allowed upwards of 20 sails on board, they do not have a wife, kids, etc on board doing nothing............

SOOOO, they can have and do have things like 60-40 splits main to jib or even 40-60 split SA main to jib depending upon the wave height and interval. They even have multiple wind anemometers to figure out how strong the wind is at deck from mid mast for mast head, so they can rig a short rig, tall or medium height setup. IE a 2 reef main with a 3/4 hoist/110lp jib vs a 2reef with a full hoist/.8 lp jib. Both having say 300# of ib sail, but in shorter waves the latter is use, taller the first option, could be the other way around, been a few years since I read the article, thought I had save it...........another option a triple reef with a full hoist 110.......single reef with a .7hoist/120 lp jib......all more or less giving the boat the same SA per setup, some work best in less than 10M waves, 10-15M and 15+ waves........

At the end of the day, it is knowing your boat, what sail options you have, be it a 2 or 3 reef main, along with a trysail, which jib(s) to have up with which reef or trysail........

As said by the OP, time to go out and play with the sail options to see what works best in a given type of condition.

Marty


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Hi Brian,

I agree on the merits of discussion. Civil discourse is how we all learn and share our experiences.



Cruisingdad said:


> A really big part of the main up is the ability to make to weather with very little effort.


Can we define terms? I can point to about 32 apparent with maybe 5 degrees of leeway (depending on seas) with 3 reefs in the main and the full 100 jib up to 35ish kts. With the wind up I can point that high up above 40 with the staysail and reefed main. Accomplishing that requires on my boat an adjustable backstay and running backs.

I haven't sailed a Catalina 400 but I have not sailed anything that can point nearly that high on main alone. Even on boats that get the bulk of power from the main the headsail makes a huge difference on pointing, recognizing that a partially furled headsail doesn't help any.



Cruisingdad said:


> Problem with the third reef is that you have lost so much shape in the sail that you are getting more leward push than forward momentum.


You're going to have to help me here. I don't follow. Most sailmakers put battens at reef points to provide support. If the reefing lines are well routed the shape is not only good but adjustable. Between the halyard and the reefing line (effectively an outhaul at the reef point) one has a lot of control of draft location and camber.



Cruisingdad said:


> When in large seas, for those that have never done it, you will litterally go airborne off the top of a wave.


That depends on the hull form and the boat weight. J/Boats can pound on every wave in conditions that my boat will pound every sixth or seventh and a real heavy-weight will pound once in a while. Since pounding slows or stops the boat that is a big deal. The boat in question does make a difference.



Cruisingdad said:


> I totally dissagree with your perception that 35-40 sustained is not a big deal.


Then we'll just have to disagree. On a well found boat it isn't terrible. Inexperienced crew might be spooked. A very light boat would surely be a problem. With the right sail set 35 is fine - no one will be dancing around but you can keep the boat moving well in the right direction and keep everyone fed. BTDT.



Cruisingdad said:


> my time in storms changed what works for me.


Storms are F10 - 48 kts and up. Different conditions.



Cruisingdad said:


> My boat points pretty well without a headsail. Also, witht he traveller, I have the option of really getting close to the wind. And like I said, you have a lot more of an ability to tweek the main, via outhaul, boom vang, etc. You lack those options on the jib. It basically is what it is, and except for adjusting the cars, your options for flattening or powering the sail rest in easing the sheet.


Remember the halyard and the backstay adjuster. On some boats there are running backs.



Cruisingdad said:


> This next statement is pure theoretical. I have no evidence to back this up than my opinion. But I also feel that a sail on the mast surrounded by shrouds/stays can take a lot more force than a single jib hanked on the forestay where the pressure is more focused on the forestay. Again, total theory with me... what do you think?


I'm not sure what you are comparing. Elaborate please?



Cruisingdad said:


> Agree about water coming over the bow well before those wind speeds. Another reason I don't like going forward. But most cruising boats have a roller furling jib. Dropping that and pulling on a storm jib would b involved and I know of very few people that carry mutiple jibs to be hanked on. I dont!!


I do. I know others who do, and have delivery customers who do admittedly racers having their boats moved around.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Will have to get back with you on this, but love the discussion. May be tommorrow or next day.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Depending on the fetch, those can be really big seas.
> 
> If you routinely sail in heavy winds, get a different jib.
> 
> Brian


SF Bay, not out past the Gate. The cruising spin is a very nice idea, but chances are the OP won't be using it out in the slot on a typical afternoon. That said, I can't imagine not having a chute of some sort.

Two thumbs up on the 'get a different jib'. OP, seriously, call Kamy Richards over at Pineapple. They also have used sails. At the very least, he'll have a very good idea of what your boat will need for the Bay as well as being able to build you a nice #3 or #4.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Let's see, Ii will try to answer as much as I can. Excuse the typos!!

First, Ii am beginning ot wonder if we are arguiing about the same thing. My comments, as directed, were more focused on open ocean sailing as I think your were too. I have said several times now I have never sailed SF bay.

That being said:

Regarding the main -

You are making point A to Point B. You are going to weather. We are talking a run in excess of 100 miles. The wind is heavy. Just the main up requires a LOT less effort. Your tacks consist of just following through the wind. At high speeds, and depending on the seas, when you ropp down into a large swell and tack, your jib can back fill and wrap inside itself. Happened ot me once. However, especially when the crew (ie, me) is tired, a single highly reefed main is a simple turn of the wheel. 

Just a quick note: I hope you understand, as I also said earlier, that a BALANCED boat is better than one not blanced. I generaly put out just enough main and jib ao give her a bit of weather helm. That is how I do it so she likes to round up a bit. Hopefully we are not disagreeing on that because I tried to be clear about that. My issue is that if I feel I need to go down to one sail, and smoetimes it is as much fatigue related as anything, that Jib is out of there. The main is by and far my preferenced sail. I have read this that when you have to drop a sail, the Main is your prefernce to drop. IF that is the case, we dissagree completely. I used to drop the main first, not anymore.

Regarding a collection of sails: Sorry, I beg to differ. Cruisers that I know, in fact, almost all I know, cruise with a RF Genoa (135-150 depending on area) a main sail and a spinnaker. Some will carry a storm jib or try sail but I suspect even circumnavigators have never seen them come out of the bag. The only boats I have ever been on that carry a variety of sails as you suggest (especially hank ons) is race boats. If we are discussing race boats, then I will agree. But not cruise boats. Most of us simply don't have the space and more often than not even the Cruising SPI finds its way lashed to the mast. 

Regarding Reef points: 

I find most sail makers do not put a 3rd reef in unless ordered. It still is not a good shape. Also, you are assuming this is not a in mast boat which will have no battens (that Hunter experiment excluded). Also, in masts are supposed to run straight up and a running backstay would not work as it will put rake in teh mast and you can have problems furling the sail. My opinions. RUnning backs are for slab reefed/traditional mains. And I couldn't even tell you the last time I saw a cruising boat with hanked on sails. Exception is a racing boat I get on where the RF makes no sense - but that is a pure race boat.

Regarding coming off the waves.

I have raced on a J but not on those conditions.

I agree with you about the issue of coming off the waves. Depends on teh boat. But a lot has to do with speed of the boat too. On my boat especially, when exceeding hull speed in large seas (and sometimes under), I will jump the waves and fall into the trough with a loud BOOM. THe issue is slowing down the boat. I know that. But it is a battle. When going forward, and I do not exhagerate, you have to hold your head on the "ceiling" to keep from banging your head on it. Anything forward of the mast (esp the V berth and forward head) is unuseable. Same for going forward on the deck, but more so. Again, in a big lon roller, maybe not. In a square wave, it is an issue.

I am not sure the pounding stops the boat as much as the ploughing into the trough and dropping between the waves. We might dissagree on that one too.

Now Dad's boat is a Tayana Vancouver 42. I cannot imagine that boat being slowed much in a sea, but his bottom type and speed is more of an issue. 

35-40 sustained is not life threatening. We agree. But we dissagree on our perception of how serious it is. 35-40 kt sustained often shows 50% more gusts and with much day(s) and miles of fetch is absolutely no fun and people can easily get hurt. I am not talking SF Bay, again, this is open water. That is Tropical Storm conditions.

Regarding the main versus jib, I have always guessed (and Ii was very clear abot this being a guess where I may be wrong) that the loead is distributed better on the main than the jib. That was my point. I was curious of your thoughts.

Hope that helps. Sorry for the late response. Really enjoying the conversation (even though you know I am right - snicker). Just Kidding!!

Brian


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

puddinlegs said:


> SF Bay, not out past the Gate. The cruising spin is a very nice idea, but chances are the OP won't be using it out in the slot on a typical afternoon. That said, I can't imagine not having a chute of some sort.
> 
> Two thumbs up on the 'get a different jib'. OP, seriously, call Kamy Richards over at Pineapple. They also have used sails. At the very least, he'll have a very good idea of what your boat will need for the Bay as well as being able to build you a nice #3 or #4.


I'm confused now. I mentioned in the original post that I have a 100% working jib. I'm not too familiar with the racing parlance, but I thought that was #3. It's one year old.

I'm thinking it should furl down to #4 size and keep it's shape OK (that would be 80% or so, I think) - indeed I just marked it at #4 size so I can easily furl it accordingly. It's one year old and looks like the shape is decent.

I do have a gennaker for light airs but it doesn't get used too often,, as the wind isn't often light enough. OK, well it is for the run home down the Oakland estuary, but that's always a dead run and the gennaker won't fly. So then it's wing and wing with the whisker pole.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

The 3 and 4 have a very different sail shape. Some of that depends on the venue the sail is built for as well. That's why talking to Kami is a good idea. A number 4 will generally be smaller of course, a lower center of effort, more roach, etc. Honestly though, 35-40kts isn't necessarily a good idea until you have some more miles in on your boat. A typical summer sail on the Bay is a nice flat main (no reef for performance sailing, one reef if you're tooling around, and a #3. In the winter you can usually use a bigger head sail unless you're going out the Gate.


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

For the past twenty five years on SF Bay our winter sail is a 110 jib, our summer is an 85 with what I call our April to September mainsail reef.

On a C25 and now our C34 (almost 50/50 in years).

You should be able to carry your 100 all summer, if not get a smaller headsail.

We never reef a jib.


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## Freedom007 (May 18, 2012)

a little late for this thread, but anyway. The best you will get out of a 100 % jib is to reef it 30 % max. anything beyond that is just a waste of time and hard on the sail. get a nice storm jib or have a solent stay or baby stay installed and go with a storm stay sail. you could have a high cut yankee built but you raise your center of effort too high. I drop my main to the third reef point and hang my storm staysl. my stick is 52 ft off the water and I dont wont much up in those kind of winds . 35-40 kts is not that bad if they are steady. Its the gusts that will cause you to broach to. THAT is SCARY !! especially when the main fills with water and your boat is struggling to right herself. The Voice of Experience. ps. running backs are for the baby stay not the main. If the baby stay is not up neither are the RBs.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

I'm glad a few more people are pitching in so this isn't just a discussion between Brian and me. Golly.



Cruisingdad said:


> First, Ii am beginning ot wonder if we are arguiing about the same thing.


I don't think we're arguing at all. I appreciate civil discourse even when I don't agree with my colleague's points. We all learn when we drag all the data out in the open. Too bad SailNet doesn't support footnotes! *grin*



Cruisingdad said:


> My comments, as directed, were more focused on open ocean sailing as I think your were too. I have said several times now I have never sailed SF bay.


Agreed. The SailNet audience includes so many people that sail large but shallow bodies of water like Chesapeake Bay, Long Island Sound, the Great Lakes, and San Fransisco Bay that the effects of those places should be addressed. Mostly that is shorter wave periods and some nasty short-duration thunderstorms in summer afternoons.



Cruisingdad said:


> You are making point A to Point B. You are going to weather. We are talking a run in excess of 100 miles. The wind is heavy. Just the main up requires a LOT less effort. Your tacks consist of just following through the wind.


My point (no pun intended) is that pointing under main alone is generally poor. That's one of the reasons we aren't all sailing catboats (no offense to those who enjoy those boats). I remember sailing the English Channel in an F8 with the jib rolled up and only able to tack back and forth between England and France making no progress to windward. Can you get anything like 30-35 degrees apparent with only the main up? What does the COG look like?



Cruisingdad said:


> Just a quick note: I hope you understand, as I also said earlier, that a BALANCED boat is better than one not blanced.


Agreed, mostly. A completely balanced boat will have a neutral helm. Most sailors prefer a few degrees of weather helm to avoid the risk associated with lee helm. There are limits of course -- consistent weather helm of more than 10(ish) degrees on most boats just slows the boat down. Too much rudder is like dragging a bucket.

The other thing to remember is that as one rolls up a jib the increasing diameter of the foil/sail causes airflow separation and reduces lift and therefore ability to point. Pointing is important.



Cruisingdad said:


> I have read this that when you have to drop a sail, the Main is your prefernce to drop. IF that is the case, we dissagree completely. I used to drop the main first, not anymore.


My point is that on my boat, with the 100 on the furler, I keep the whole jib out until all three reefs are in the main. Then I go from the 100 to a staysail on the removable inner forestay (all rigged before leaving the dock). Things have to get pretty darn bad before I go to one sail. Which I go to depends on conditions and course.



Cruisingdad said:


> Regarding a collection of sails: Sorry, I beg to differ. Cruisers that I know, in fact, almost all I know, cruise with a RF Genoa (135-150 depending on area) a main sail and a spinnaker.


You see more spinnakers than I do on cruising boats.

What people do and what makes good sense isn't always the same. A 150 is a huge sail except for really light air day sailing. For real cruising a 135 is okay but a 100 is a much more flexible and low risk sail.



Cruisingdad said:


> Some will carry a storm jib or try sail but I suspect even circumnavigators have never seen them come out of the bag.


Agreed - mostly because the extra sails are buried in a locker somewhere under other stuff. How many boats actually have sail lockers anymore?



Cruisingdad said:


> I find most sail makers do not put a 3rd reef in unless ordered. It still is not a good shape.


I agree that you have to order it. I don't agree that the shape isn't good.

You are correct that the number of conventional mains is pretty low on cruising boats. To my knowledge (I may be wrong) I have the only HR40 with a conventional, full batten main instead of a roller furling (RF) main. Sail shape when "reefed" is not very good on RF mains. Even vertical battens, which help, aren't a complete answer. For conventional slab-reefed mains the shape is very good as long as you crank the reefed clew down hard.



Cruisingdad said:


> Also, in masts are supposed to run straight up and a running backstay would not work as it will put rake in teh mast and you can have problems furling the sail.


Rake is induced by backstay adjusters and not the running backs. Rake is not a problem with in-mast furling as long as the boom angle is adjusted accordingly.

Running backs are entirely for providing support for an inner forestay.

Although my staysail is hanked on I agree that the market for those sails is small. Racing boats mostly use foils that look just like those of a RF headsail without a furler. Again the issue is to minimize leading edge issues from heterogeneously distributed tension and flow disturbance.



Cruisingdad said:


> Now Dad's boat is a Tayana Vancouver 42. I cannot imagine that boat being slowed much in a sea, but his bottom type and speed is more of an issue.


I trimmed a bunch of your comments on this area - interested readers should review Brian's original post.

I have found that many full keel boats slow down a lot in a sea. Ploughing is indeed a factor as much as pounding. In my personal experience, and with all due respect to Mr. Perry, Tayanas, Passports, and similar boats slow down a lot in heavy seas. I can keep boat speed significantly higher on Swans, Hallberg-Rassys, Moodys, and Najads.



Cruisingdad said:


> 35-40 sustained is not life threatening. We agree. But we dissagree on our perception of how serious it is. 35-40 kt sustained often shows 50% more gusts and with much day(s) and miles of fetch is absolutely no fun and people can easily get hurt. I am not talking SF Bay, again, this is open water. That is Tropical Storm conditions.


Google "Beaufort wind force" - 35-40 kts isn't tropical storm conditions. It certainly isn't something to head out into in a Catalina 22 but it shouldn't be a problem for a well-found boat with an experienced crew.



MarkSF said:


> I'm confused now. I mentioned in the original post that I have a 100% working jib. I'm not too familiar with the racing parlance, but I thought that was #3. It's one year old.


You're correct. To my knowledge there are no hard numbers. A #3 is generally 90-110% of foretriangle. #4 is smaller. A #2 is 135+/- and a #1 is 150ish.


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## arja (Aug 9, 2000)

Respectfully, as you shorten your headsail, remember to move your jib or genoa sheet cars forward to assist with that sail shape issue. Tough to remember and do, especially with strong winds and the load on the sheet. But important, if it is not a part of your processes. 

On my Hinckley B-40 yawl, in higher winds when I go jib and jigger with the roller reefing headsail and mizzen, if I don't move the cars forward, things get really messy quickly. And not having that main sail up and reefed to the second or third points really helps with helm challenges. 

In a prior life without roller reefing, we would all be making headsail changes based on the wind. Easy to handle sheet car placements then without a load.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

arja said:


> Respectfully, as you shorten your headsail, remember to move your jib or genoa sheet cars forward to assist with that sail shape issue. Tough to remember and do, especially with strong winds and the load on the sheet. But important, if it is not a part of your processes.


Definitely agree. It is part of my process but getting it done depends on the boat.

On boats with pinned cars a snatch block can let you unload the sheet enough to move the car forward. On a boat with rigged cars you may have to run the adjusting line to a winch. Standing on the sheet forward of the car helps.

Regardless, cleaning and lubing the track every year will avoid a lot of swearing and sweating in adverse conditions.

Thanks for pointing out an important factor.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Lets see, agree with most of what you say SV A.

I also mentioned that a balanced boat is better but that I put in some weather helm. If I did not mention that in my previous post, that was my error. I am a fan of weather helm (unless you are fighting it).

I think another interesting point in this discussion is that no two boats react exactly the same. What works on dad's Tayana may not be ther best solution for my C400 or your HR. Finding that right point is key. 

You should be able to point higher with both head and main. How I sail, right or wrong (assuming a long trip as mentioned) is that I don't get a long way from the rhumb line before tacking. Now, descent weather, daytime, etc, ALWAYS have both main and jib up. Night, nasty, blowing 35-40 sustained, I will go down to one sail. If I am tired, one sail. Getting good boat speed out of my girl is not the problem. Slowing her down so we don't jump off the waves is the problem (in general). When I go do to on sail, unless at a run (which I almost never do for obvious reasons), I go with just the main. It is easier to handle and I have a lot more options to shape it flat or out to power or depower. 

I also mentioned earlier in this discussion about the genoa car. Agree with teh snatch block. But unless you have an adjustable track via line (I do not and primarily see them on race boats), you will be fooling with the thrack car to get the car set correctly. But outside of that, you do not have a lot of options on the jib.

Will avoid the inner stay discussion for cutter rigs as you alrady know I feel that "can" b the right decision depending on the sail. In general (and no offense) I find the typical cutter rigged boat a PITA in anything but a blow unless she has a removeable inner. Tacking with that inner up sucks and running all the sails is just a pain unless your tacks are few and far between. My opinion. 

Dad's boat has an inner. Mine does not. I do not have that option. As such, I must choose between main and RF jib. The jib goes (unless close to a run, as said bfore, which I typically avoid anyways). There is part of our dissagreement. I do not have that sail plan. 

I probably see more light air thatn you do. Cruising chutes are awesome (I am not a fan of a sym spi for cruisers, just racers, but that is my prefernce). Your options with a cruising chute are very large and they are easy to manage with a sock setup. 

Re my opinions on the Tayanas of the world versus the more modern performance boats, completely agree. I MORE than completely agree. I have had a LOT of indepth discussions about that. I think Paulo on here and I had quite a runing thread at one time about it. Not to get too off topice here (or maybe worth a further discussion as I think we both understand each others point of view), I will never, ever have a boat that cannot perform well. Never. I prefer a boat that can easily achieve hull speed and often exceed it. You are exposed less, she handles better, you get there faster, you use less fuel, etc. I love dad's boat because he has so much storage it is like a house. I admittedly do not, but I make do. But dad's boat weighs in (dry) roughly 38,500 lbs and we are about the same length. My boat, fully loaded, is maybe 26ish. A performance cruiser is the only boat I would ever consider for cruising. And I will tel you anoter reason that is sure to PO others with the opposite opinion: They are a LOT more fun to sail!!! I actually enjoy getting out sailing and not bobbing around like a cork in 10 kts of wind. My hull shape does have issues if you do not handle it properly. My bigest issues is hat if you don't slow it down you jump off the waves and crash (BOOM) into the seas. Not even a deaf man can sleep through that. Doubt it hurts the boat, but sure makes for a long trip even if it is a short one.

This has been a great discussion and I welcome anyone else to jump in with any other thoughts. Give us some first hand experience of what you have seen. Classify it open water or a bay (it is different). Still dissgaree that 35-40 sustained is not a big deal, but that is my opinion. It is also based on the fact that the gusts are generally much higher and a day or two of that creates nasty seas depending on the fetch. I am not talking about 35-40 in a thunderstorm that moves through. No big deal about that except the suddent gusts. But again, that is my comfort level and what I like/don't like. I do sail with kids, so that has a bit more bearing on my comfort level and it also forces me much more singlehanding. 

THanks again for the discussion!! Great info!!!

Brian


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Brian,

You made a comment that I frankly do not under stand the why this is so, ie line control genoa/jib carrs are usually only seen on racers. having them, I see no reason that this frankly should be a no brainier for ANYONE with an RF had sail. It is then EASY to pull the carr forward, or back as you furl/unfurl the HS "FROM" the cockpit mind you. Granted one can micro adjust the car better with line control than with cars that have pins.......but still, can we say ease of use is WAY better with line control carrs, and well worth the cost frankly!

Then as far as sail adjustment, this kinda refers to what I was saying about the V70's, if you are in SF Bay or the GL's, one needs to adjust the sails to suit which waves, short, steep and taller, vs longer and flatter when going upwind, so you get max speed, or are at least more comfortable. Here is where multiple sail options come into play, be it 1-3 reefs in the main, 2-3 jib sizes/shapes to work with, easily adjustible carrs, be it for the main or jib, does not matter........

I'm beginning to see double on my puter screen, should head for bed, going to be a long'ish day tomorrow.....altho being 10:20 pm here, you are already into tomorrow, altho not as much as Mr Fuzzy!

let me know how tomorrow is going.

marty

ps, here is a link to how I did my line control carrs, pretty cheap and simple, if I had to do it again, i would go with ball bearing carrs, but the first line or two in the how to article say why I used what I did etc


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Slowing her down so we don't jump off the waves is the problem (in general). When I go do to on sail, unless at a run (which I almost never do for obvious reasons), I go with just the main. It is easier to handle and I have a lot more options to shape it flat or out to power or depower.


Interesting. I haven't found Catalinas to be as fast as that. Admittedly I haven't sailed a C400 but I have moved a few 42s. Do you know the hull differences? Is the designer the same?



Cruisingdad said:


> But unless you have an adjustable track via line (I do not and primarily see them on race boats), you will be fooling with the thrack car to get the car set correctly. But outside of that, you do not have a lot of options on the jib.


Line-adjustable cars on genoa tracks are fairly common. I see them a lot in the middle and top of the market. Swans, HRs, Moodys, and such. Mine is a complicated bit of kit that actually moves two cars per side (staysail and headsail) with one line.



Cruisingdad said:


> Will avoid the inner stay discussion for cutter rigs as you alrady know I feel that "can" b the right decision depending on the sail.


My boat does have a removable inner forestay. Inshore and on day sails I have an open fore triangle. Offshore I rig the inner forestay AND the staysail hanked on and bagged on deck with sheets run. I've dragged a sail over the deck in F9 once and won't do it again. I'm too old and cranky for that sort of silliness.

That said, on most (not all) boats backwinding the jib allows the jib to pop through the gap. Not practical with a Solent stay of course. I wouldn't want to engage in a tacking duel that way, but when sailing guidance is "nearly Tuesday, we should tack" it isn't an issue.

You said you stay close to the rhumb line. I don't necessarily. I use synoptic charts to forecast wind speed and direction and take the favored tack (racing background) as long as I can and then tack.



Cruisingdad said:


> I probably see more light air thatn you do. Cruising chutes are awesome (I am not a fan of a sym spi for cruisers, just racers, but that is my prefernce). Your options with a cruising chute are very large and they are easy to manage with a sock setup.


I raced foredeck for nearly three decades, so my background colors my opinion and approach. I do have a 1.5oz asym that I fly off the pole as often as the bow sprit, often single-handed. I don't have a symmetric sail of my own yet but there is a spot reserved for a big 3/4oz (all yellow of course) light air sail.



Cruisingdad said:


> But dad's boat weighs in (dry) roughly 38,500 lbs and we are about the same length. My boat, fully loaded, is maybe 26ish.


Really? Wow. My HR40 weighs 22k# on day sails and only about 23.5k# for offshore cruises (the additional mostly provisions, people, and personal gear). I didn't think the C400 was that heavy.

I will say I picked my boat because I wanted a boat that could point and sail fast. I do okay in light air and can make half true wind speed upwind down to about 5 kts true. I had an 8 kt (24 hr) day on a reach a couple of months ago with two hours never below 10 kts single-handed offshore (disclaimer - I sail my boat single-handed but would not risk a client boat like that on delivery). Auspicious is pretty fast for a cruiser. German Frers and HR did a good job on her. Sailing fast is part of why I have an adjustable backstay and runners. Without adjustments you're stuck with what you have. Halyards, cunningham, vang, backstay, runners, cars -- you can have it all and still have a clean deck (and a dry cockpit).



Cruisingdad said:


> Still dissgaree that 35-40 sustained is not a big deal, but that is my opinion.


Accepted. A lot depends on the nut behind the wheel, and how you're set up to keep everyone fed, reasonably clean, rested, and alert. Some boats make that hard.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

S/V A,

Teh C400 and C445 are performance cruisers. Totally different hull shape than the 42 which frankly is a very old hull shape and design. The hull shape on the C400 is eerily similar to the new B40. So much so, when I was looking at it, I could have sworn someone was copying from another!! Only difference is that rediculous hull deck joint a the waterline which I hate about the Benes.

The specs on the C400 will tell you 19500 or something. Pfft. That is DESIGNED displacement. I am convinced they all lie. Last pull I think I measured 28ish IIRC, but should be able to give you a better idea of what I will weigh in as the boat is about to be put back in the water as I am having her bottom, etc done. Remember though, this is a cruise boat and my boat admittedly has a LOT of stuff on there that adds weight. But again, I think ALL desiigners lie. You sure what your boat weights? Not design specs, when they pulled it? They can give you a ballpark on the lift. 

I do not see many line adjustable cars. I agree that on the higher end boats you may see them, but really, most of the higher end boats that I see are marina queens. I am sure you will dissagree, but the boats I see cruising are primarily production boats. Lots of old Hunters, Catalinas, Benes, Islander Freeports, Irwins, Passports, lots of Tayana 37's, lots of Hans Christians, some valiants (mostly 40's), fewer Pacific Seacrafts, CSY's, Island Packets. I am sure I have missed something here. But I would venture to say that on none of those boats will you find a line adjust car unless added afterwards. Most sailors, myself included, would love to have one. But I would love a removeable inner, an inmast boom, watermaker, cruising chute, solar panels, generator, 36in lifelines, clip on toe rail, faster boat, less expensive boat, etc. I have many of those things, of course, as you know. But my point is that in my prioritizing, a line adjust car system is pretty low. For most manufacturers, it is too. The "perfect boat" would simply be too expensive. You and I both know most cruisers are on a fixed budget. Most cruisers sail on older boats. The higher end boats with all the goodies are out of the price range of most people. I have sat in harbors on "cruising boats" that I wouldn't take out further than I could swim back yet learn these people just crossed in from the carrib or something!! I believe most newby sailors have been sold a bag of BS that you have to have all this new stuff and all the gadgets to get out there. What a crock. But I digress..

Thus, most of the cruising boats I are old boats that people make work. I don't see high end boats cruising. I don't even see many mid range boats cruising. I see them at the dock! I see them at some anchorages for the weeeknd, generator running all freaking night and fuming me out, but not going further than the yacht club getaway. 

I don't like sym SPi's for cruising. Too complicated to rig up by yourself and handle by yourself. Lots of people do it. THey are probably better sailors than me. But when I can tie the foot off on a asy chute, hault it up with the halyard, pull the sheet outside, and up-the-sock, THAT is easy and manageable with one person. It is also easy to dump and adjust with one person. 

Intersting, I have started seeing these masthead asym SPi's becoming popular in some of the races. Not sure if you have ever run one, but you might become a believer. It's easy cheesy and fun. Sym SPi's are a pain but perform better. Thus, they are for races only in my opinion (which I know others dissagree with, just my opinion).

On a side note, the HR's are my wife's favorite boat. Can't remember which one (42 or 45???) we went on in FTL at the show some years ago, but she fell in love with it. Super boat. My favorite was the Nordhavn 46 (snicker). Course, one of my alltime favorites are teh old Masons but the draft is a killer for me. Seems like the draft on that HR wouldn't work for us either, but I am just going off of memory.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

blt2ski said:


> Brian,
> 
> You made a comment that I frankly do not under stand the why this is so, ie line control genoa/jib carrs are usually only seen on racers. having them, I see no reason that this frankly should be a no brainier for ANYONE with an RF had sail. It is then EASY to pull the carr forward, or back as you furl/unfurl the HS "FROM" the cockpit mind you. Granted one can micro adjust the car better with line control than with cars that have pins.......but still, can we say ease of use is WAY better with line control carrs, and well worth the cost frankly!
> 
> ...


Hey Marty,

The answer to your question is that it is simply low on my priority list and interest list. I also would not rig it that way. I would not put any extra load on that chain plate for the shrouds. That's just me. Instead, I would buy another adjustable car for the T track and lock it forward, then use a similar block system so that all the load for the adjustment stays on teh track and not the chain plate. Again, just my preference, but the load on those at high winds I suspect could be extraordinary on larger boats. When in seas, those things have a tendancy to "POP" on those cars and a good portion of that load would be distributed to that chain plate. Again, that is just my opinion.

What we do is that we have our reefing line marked at various reef points that match the main where we cleat it off at the cleat. Not perfect, but ballpark. I have a general idea where to move the car to. I always adjust the car on the high side (esp since there is not load on it). THen I tack and match it to the other (which never matches up the same per hole, which I have never understood.... but anyways). I check the sail and inevitably don't lik it, and fiddle with it some more, tacking each time until I like it and adjusting the winward car. I do not understand why you do not have more of an ability to fine tune than me. Admittedly, my locking holes are circa 1-1.5 inches apart, but your adjustment should be infinite.

Brian


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Brian,

Thanks for the education on mid-size Catalinas. The only "3-digit" Catalina I've sailed was a 470 which was a pretty spritely girl.

I'm confident in the weight on my boat. I record the weight on every lift. One yard had me really heavy and one really light, but generally they've all run 21k to 23k lbs. Frers really did a great job on the hull and she's great offshore in a blow. The Schell keel helps, putting lots of ballast weight quite low.



Cruisingdad said:


> I do not see many line adjustable cars. I agree that on the higher end boats you may see them, but really, most of the higher end boats that I see are marina queens.


As a delivery skipper I don't see many marina queens except when the sell, so my view is going to be skewed. Still, the HRs, Swans, IPs, Hylas', Amels, and other 'nice' boats not usually considered production get sailed a lot. You are correct that older and/or production boats dominate the cruising "fleet" but I think if you look there are a lot of quite nice boats represented as well. I think (opinion) that as a proportion of the total community they are statistically about the same as their proportion of new sales.



Cruisingdad said:


> I believe most newby sailors have been sold a bag of BS that you have to have all this new stuff and all the gadgets to get out there. What a crock. But I digress..


We definitely agree there. I recommend getting the boat safe to sail and push off if cruising is one's goal. You'll figure out what your own priorities are quickly enough and stop depending on books and "cut and paste" sailors repeating aphorisms they don't understand.



Cruisingdad said:


> Intersting, I have started seeing these masthead asym SPi's becoming popular in some of the races.


I have one, a bit heavy fabric but nice. I can fly it off my little bow sprit or off the pole (which is much faster in light air). The biggest issue is that if the dinghy is on the foredeck I have to haul the darn thing through the boat to launch it. With the dinghy towed behind (or left at the dock on day sails) I launch it through the foredeck hatch and it really is easy. Remember: 30 years of foredeck racing. I'm a spinnaker whore.



Cruisingdad said:


> On a side note, the HR's are my wife's favorite boat. Can't remember which one (42 or 45???) we went on in FTL at the show some years ago, but she fell in love with it.


The 45 and the later 42s are Frers designs. The earlier Enderlein boats were heavier and slower. When I bought Auspicious I looked at the 43s before picking a 40. If your lovely bride pushes you to an HR do please give me a call. I will hook you up with some of the best guidance in the world on HRs. There is a very active owner's association (when you can pin them down between passages) and a couple of very special people who have built careers on HR boats. Most are good friends of mine.


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