# Purchasing a Charter Catamaran from the Moorings



## MokaKat (Feb 22, 2012)

Is there anyone out there that has had some experience in purchasing a charter catamaran from the Moorings or any other charter company? I am currently considering several Leopard 40 cats that have come out of charter and have been reconditioned. Just curious is anyone has had good or bad experience in purchasing an ex-charter cat. I am looking for a 35 to 42 foot catamaran for a 1 or 2 year sabbatical cruising in the Caribbean.

Dale


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

An engine survey is recommended. Make sure you check the engine hours and hire a good mechanic to check the engine(s).


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## MokaKat (Feb 22, 2012)

Celenoglu,
Thanks for the advice! Any other comments???


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

This topic has been beat to death here and at cruisersforum.com. My analogy - its not like buying a used car from a dealer - its like buying one from Hertz. To make matters worse, from what I have read it is hard to find a good surveyor in the islands. If you are knowledgeable and realistic you may find the perfect boat. Sails, engines all have a lot more use than a private boat of the same age. Good luck!


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Yeah I would go for it. $200 -220K SEEMS TO BE REASONABLE TO ME AND Moorings do a good job of sprucing them up. 

Usual caveat check carefully for evidence of grounding damage, even Moorings charter to some right numpties.

2 years crusing in the Caribbean will be a wonderfull experience.


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## MokaKat (Feb 22, 2012)

TQA,
Thanks! There are several on the market and I just need a trip to see them for myself. It looks like Tortola has several from several brokerages, so it may be the best option to see several boats on the same trip. 

Dale


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

A suggestion... There are folks who have walked this path, bought the Moorings boat, spent the cash refitting her and a year or 2 later are trying to get out of the boat. I would have a look here

Catamarans for sale by owner

Before taking the plunge.

Just a thought.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

TropicCat said:


> A suggestion... There are folks who have walked this path, bought the Moorings boat, spent the cash refitting her and a year or 2 later are trying to get out of the boat. I would have a look here
> 
> Catamarans for sale by owner
> 
> ...


I am curious, what refitting do you think would need doing before you go sailing for a couple of years around the Caribbean?

Bearing in mind that Moorings do give them a good going over as it leaves charter. The sails will not be new but have two years + left in them and the engines will have a fair number of hours but again have two years + left in them.


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## MokaKat (Feb 22, 2012)

TropicCat,
Thanks for the link! It seems to be a nicely run site, and I receive an email each time a new boat is added. There has been some good boats show up, but I wasn't ready to buy at that time. Actually, I think that I have been all over the internet looking, and need to see a few in person. The next step is to plan some trips to look at a few of my top choices before I take the plunge. 

Dale


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

MokaKat said:


> TropicCat,
> Thanks for the link! It seems to be a nicely run site, and I receive an email each time a new boat is added. There has been some good boats show up, but I wasn't ready to buy at that time....
> Dale


Make sure you stay on the mailing list.

There will be a newly listed Leopard 40 (Moorings) up on the site this weekend. Currently in Spain. You'll probably receive that listing notice by Sunday Evening.

And thanks for the compliment on catamaransite.com. Lots of folks visit the site every day, but I almost never receive feedback. It's good to hear it's useful.

Good Luck


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

TQA said:


> I am curious, what refitting do you think would need doing before you go sailing for a couple of years around the Caribbean?


As to buying a boat right out of charter.... It's not only sails and engine hours. It's usually 5 years of wear and tear on all boat systems as well as the upholstery and mattresses. I find that people take great care when it's their own boat, and not so much when it's not.

One more thing. A charter boat is not necessarily a cruising boat. No one is buying expensive cruising gear for a charter boat and this will have to be purchased during the refit. To see the difference go back to catamaransite.com and compare what's on board a cruising boat vs a charter boat. I break the boat inventory out separately for exactly this purpose. Buying a bargain $170K ex-charter boat with nothing on her might equate to a fully loaded $200K ++ cruising boat. All is not equal ... Just sayin..


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

TropicCat said:


> As to buying a boat right out of charter.... It's not only sails and engine hours. It's usually 5 years of wear and tear on all boat systems as well as the upholstery and mattresses. I find that people take great care when it's their own boat, and not so much when it's not.
> 
> One more thing. A charter boat is not necessarily a cruising boat. No one is buying expensive cruising gear for a charter boat and this will have to be purchased during the refit. To see the difference go back to catamaransite.com and compare what's on board a cruising boat vs a charter boat. I break the boat inventory out separately for exactly this purpose. Buying a bargain $170K ex-charter boat with nothing on her might equate to a fully loaded $200K ++ cruising boat. All is not equal ... Just sayin..


Actually Moorings get them looking pretty spiffy. So you agree no refitting required.

Extra kit sure. A second anchor and rode, some spares and maybe a solar package and I would be good to go.


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

TQA said:


> Actually Moorings get them looking pretty spiffy. So you agree no refitting required.
> 
> Extra kit sure. A second anchor and rode, some spares and maybe a solar package and I would be good to go.


Ummm..no...again, review the link I posted. It's self explanatory.


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

While I haven't purchased a cat from Moorings, I did purchase an ex-charter monohull from Sunsail and the underlying principles are the same. The engines tend to be used hard but maintained very well, a thorough survey by a buyer's surveyor is necessary once you have gone through all the models of the cat you want with a notepad and a camera and have chosen the best-of-breed. I went through over 30 boats before choosing one and never regretted it. They are pre-depreciated and most of what I had to work on was purely cosmetic (scratched/abused interiors and the like). Do you plan on flying to the where the Leopards were phased out and inspecting them? Do any of them belong to Moorings or are all owned by individuals? Moorings will take possession of a cat if the previous owners upgrade or have the fixed-price sale contract and those models will often be priced more aggressively than their privately owned counterparts.


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

Zanshin said:


> ...Do any of them belong to Moorings or are all owned by individuals? Moorings will take possession of a cat if the previous owners upgrade or have the fixed-price sale contract and those models will often be priced more aggressively than their privately owned counterparts.


While I didn't get into this, you've brought up a very good yet, misunderstood point. Most charter boats are owned by private individuals, and are then leased... usually on a 5 year contract, by Moorings or SunSail, or whomever. At the end of the lease it's the owner's boat, and they are responsible for it.

In the past, this has been an excellent offshore investment vehicle. These days, not so much.


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## MokaKat (Feb 22, 2012)

Thanks for all of the responses! TropicCat, thanks for the lead on the Leopard 40. Spain may be a show stopper for me, as I don't have the blue water experience to bring it back. Unless I can find a private owned cat, I will probably take a trip out to BVI, and look at a few of the ex-charter cats that are for sale, there are a number. I will keep you guys posted!

Dale


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## twinsailor (Jan 3, 2013)

I purchased a Beneteau 331 from them over 5 years ago, saved a bunch, was so impressed with the operation that I bugged the Sales Mgr two years for a Broker position. 
I wasn't aware that sales of used monohulls and cats from their fleets total over 120 per year.


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

twinsailor said:


> I purchased a Beneteau 331 from them over 5 years ago, saved a bunch, was so impressed with the operation that I bugged the Sales Mgr two years for a Broker position.
> I wasn't aware that sales of used monohulls and cats from their fleets total over 120 per year.


Did you get the job?


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## MokaKat (Feb 22, 2012)

Update: I made an offer on a 40' Leopard coming out of Charter with the Moorings on Monday! We have been back and forth a couple of times so today the last offer will either be accepted or I find another boat. I am working with Gary Fretz, who seems to be very knowledgable and is representing my interest as a buyer's broker. More updates coming!


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## twinsailor (Jan 3, 2013)

Tropicat - yes, 3 years ago, Florida office, love it.
I was responding as an individual, not promoting as per forumn rules.


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## Fllcatsailor (May 30, 2013)

Ex-charter boats can be really good buys. It is important to do your due diligence and work with a marine surveyor you can trust, and someone who has an intimate knowledge of the entire process from phaseout to closing. If you need any help, or want any advice on buying an ex-charter boat please don't hesitate to PM me.


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

As someone once said of the vehicle I was driving through a 3rd world part of Africa:

"It's only a rental, don't be gentle."

I *guess* there are some deals to be had out there w/ charter cats, but I'd be very cautious. Hell, a co-worker once bragged to me how they had all the sails flying on a IP they chartered on the Bay when it was blowing 35 and how they were screaming down the Bay. Made a mental note to self to never charter to him.


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## twinsailor (Jan 3, 2013)

Actually, there are some very good Surveyors in Tortola. However like anywhere else, there are a couple that I would not recommend to anyone. 
Sure, the charter vessels see a lot of use, but see a lot of regular maintenance also, which I feel is more important. Occasionally there is the idiot that thinks it's OK to abuse them because it's a 'rental' - but in reality this is rare in that area. It's mostly respectful sailors on vacation that are racing, anchoring, and docking on other peoples property. And fortunately the models in the Moorings fleet are of high quality and can handle most anything anyway.


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## MokaKat (Feb 22, 2012)

Well, we just made and accepted an offer on a 2008 Lagoon 380 coming out of Sunsail Charters! I will be heading over to the Bahamas to check it out in couple of weeks! Gary Fretz has assisted us as a buyer's broker and has been an excellent source of information and guidance. We hope to accept the boat and bring it back to Florida for a refit, then start our cruising, sometime in August or September. I have high expectations of the refit out of Sunsail, based on the reputation that I am hearing. We will see how it all goes!


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## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

Congratulations!!!


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Congratulations!


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## Grunthrie (May 2, 2013)

Congrats MokaKat!


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## Fllcatsailor (May 30, 2013)

Congrats on the accepted offer! Island Time is a great boat. I used to sail her all the time when I ran the Sunsail Abacos fleet. You'll love the Lagoon 380. If you need any info on the boat please don't hesitate to PM me!


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## MokaKat (Feb 22, 2012)

Fllcatsailer,
PM sent!


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## MokaKat (Feb 22, 2012)

Well, I am back from my Bahama boat buying trip, without a boat . We had a signed offer and acceptance on a 2008 Lagoon 380, which was a very nice boat. The reason that we passed was for three reasons. 1). the headroom on the bimini was too short, as I constantly hit my head on the edge while moving in and out of the cockpit (I'm 6'2"). The boom clearance wasn't high enough to allow raising the bimini, so I would have to live with it as it was. It was possible to install a hardtop, but the costs were high. 2). I would have had to add a separate freezer, as the freezer section was only large enough for a couple of ice trays. 3). Kitchen cabinets and counter top was made of a thin laminate, which was peeling off the doors. The sailing of the Lagoon was very nice, as we spent a couple of hours in the Sea of Abaco. I then looked at a Leopard 40, which I really liked. It was higher in price, but had plenty of headroom and a seperate freezer. I also liked the layout and construction of the kitchen. Unfortuately, I was out bid on the boat, so I am still looking for a catamaran. At least the trip wasn't wasted, as I know which boat I like the best. Now we are searching for a Leopard 40.


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

Leopard 40 for sale by owner
Leopard 43 for sale by owner
leopard 47 for sale by owner


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## MokaKat (Feb 22, 2012)

Thanks TropicCat! I am a fan of this website! I sent a note to the Leopard 43 owner for some additional information. I haven't considered this cat due to the location on the Pacific side. We had focused on the Caribbean side for the past couple of months. The Leopard 40 that is for sale is in Spain, so at this time, it is too far from our targeted cruising area.

Dale


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## Fllcatsailor (May 30, 2013)

Mokakat, there are some really good deals on Leopard 40's... I would highly recommend if you go after a Leopard 40 you go for one with yanmars versus the volvo's... In my time as an operations manager for the charter companies I had WAY more problems with volvo boats versus the yanmar boats...


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## MokaKat (Feb 22, 2012)

Fllcatsailor, Yes, thank you! I also have been given that advice on the Yanmars! I am still looking for a 'good deal', as the current list of available boats seems to be getting smaller!


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## Fllcatsailor (May 30, 2013)

Mokakat,

I just saw your PM from a couple of weeks ago... I'm still a new member here, so I can't send PM's... I used to work in charter operations for moorings/sunsail and have worked on or sailed most of the boats that are coming onto the market...


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## MokaKat (Feb 22, 2012)

We ended up buying a 2008 Roberts and Caine Leopard 400 coming out of the Moorings charter. It was an owners version with low hours. We have been on the boat for about a week, and have taken it offshore for a 3 day voyage to one of the local cays. The Moorings team has been very good with us, and have repaired all of the items noted on the survey. They even fixed a few issued that we found during our follow up sea trial. We plan on staying here in Belize and in Guatemala for the duration of the hurricane season, and then head on up to Florida for a refit with solar, etc. So far we feel good about our purchase and the Moorings team here has been very helpful! You can follow our adventure at www.MokaKat.com, as we travel on sabbatical for the next year or two.


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## jeffgauvin (Jul 17, 2008)

Mokakat, Congrats on the new boat! I have been following your saga and thrilled to hear it all worked out in the end.

Jeff


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## mrlawlor (Nov 10, 2013)

Fllcatsailor said:


> Ex-charter boats can be really good buys. It is important to do your due diligence and work with a marine surveyor you can trust, and someone who has an intimate knowledge of the entire process from phaseout to closing. If you need any help, or want any advice on buying an ex-charter boat please don't hesitate to PM me.


Fllcatsailor, saw your post but can't pm yet. I just entered into a purchase agreement for one of the 2008 Jeanneau SO 36i's from the Moorings/Sunsail at Abaco. She will be my first sailboat. I saw your post to ask you about phase-out refits. What should I expect from them? What should I push for? I will be at the Abaco base this week for sea trial and survey. 
Thanks for your time,
Mark


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