# Florida Anchoring and Mooring pilot program.



## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

Now, I know some will say there should be no anchoring time limit at all, and I, for one, am not about to argue against that point of view. 
I might also add, that this decision shows me that the Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission IS keeping the needs of cruisers in mind, at least somewhat, as the process of approving local anchorage regulations for those communties (or counties) involved in the Pilot Mooring Field Program, goes forward!

The cruising community owes of a HUGE debt of thanks to Boat/US and Bonnie Bashem, Captain Charmaine and the hundreds and hundreds of cruisers who have bombarded the FWC and the St. Augustine City Government with e-mails.

However, the fight is most surely NOT over yet. There are still details to be worked out in St. Augustine, and there are four more Pilot Mooring Field Program sites for which anchorage regulations are yet to be approved.

Along with the state of Florida and the continental coastline of the US and Canada
I say use your boat or get it out of the water.


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## dave c (Aug 26, 2013)

Check out the survey on the Fwc web page about the pilot program. I think you have sometime in October to do it. One of the questions is did it promote the use of mooring fields, gee closing off some former anchoring areas like the area called the seaplane anchorage in Key West, umm I don't know. I stayed in the Key West mooring field in 2012 and would probably again but there are better protected anchorages that are now closed off and the city requires one months deposit to moor and all I had was debit so 600 to start for a month. After I left these crooks stalled for over a week to put my deposit back. As far as protecting the marine environment, what a joke. Look at Stuart, all the water being dumped with runoff from agriculture and golf courses has destroyed so much seagrass and ruined water quality and they are asking this. I hope the bubble they live in does not pop or they will realize the Fwc won't be around much longer, why will we need them if the environment is dead. And who will they blame once all the anchored boats are gone and the waterways are dead zones anyways!


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

get a grip,the mooring fields are and were colossal financial failures and do nothing but shift the false issues of pollution, derelict vessels and other propaganda to other areas.
don't believe me? 
check out the "new" anchorage communities north and south of the mooring field limits of St. Augustine or look at all the boats anchored between seabreeze bridge and main St.bridge in Daytona beach.
it reminds me of the homeless issue. just move them about instead of utilizing existing law to address and deal with any problems. just push it down stream.
no worries though still plenty of good places to go and when the old popular places figure out it's there loss,no one will even remember them.


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

The damb shame of it all and with every other concern to these people is not saving the waterways or the marine life with in it. Its always about the money. They seam to think all sailers are rich. Most sailors I know are not rich people. in fact they are a humble lot. The eastern seaboard are riddled with abandoned vessels. I for one got one of these sinking boats and brought it back to life. It needs to be cleaned up and there needs to be laws inplace to keep boat owners responsible for the vessels they keep or "Leave behind" 
Charging for a right to drop anchor is not in MHO, a means to address the problem. That only gives a revinue stream to every city or town that happens to find its self along the waterway. Be diligent on boats not tended on a monthley bases. Have a harbor master that knows who is coming and who is going and how often they move. Charge for the cost of the harbor master to the year-long mooring boats from the local area. Truth be known its the local boat owners that leave the relics behind and slowly let them go, its not the transent sailor. The ones that use them as a Crack down in south florida should be hauled and desposed of. 
Its just a shame its always left to the good people to get hammered with the short commings of the bad ones. Always...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

As someone who calls the Florida waterways home, I have mixed feelings.

It would be a real shame if the Florida (or any) coastline became a place where one could not anchor freely. Between the Keys and Pensacloa, I have a LOT of places that we would often anchor for week(s). Gorgeous islands and scenery. No people or houses. Just plain pretty and a real feeling that you are on your own and free. Who would ever want to lose that with a pack of mooring balls littering up the coast?

Now, the flip side. I have been boating these waters since about 2000 as a FT live aboard/cruiser. I remember the days in FOrt Myers Beach, for instance, when it was all anchors. You simply cannot get as many boats in there and those anchorages do fill up. Same with Boot Key (Marathon, FL... Keys) which holds IIRC over 300 boats in this small harbor - and it fills up regularly in season! I remember the days of no pumpouts, boats left derelict, the sea rays with mushroom anchors and 1:2 scope and the clueless sailor who drops 200 foot of scope in 10 feet of water and takes over the entire anchorage. Now, these fields all have pumpouts that come TO YOUR BOAT, they are actively monitored by the cities and LEO, have water, shower, and restroom accessibility for free, have washer and dryers, and in general you can tie up for the night and know that the boat off your bow isn't going to swing in to you or drag into you.

Down here, it is not unusual for squalls to run up on you in the middle of the night and you will see 50+ gusts. A poorly anchored boat will drag or his lines will snap. I saw that a lot in Fort Myers Beach. An extreme example here, but after Gabrielle, you couldn't count all the boats that drug into other boats and ended up taking out part of the anchorage and planting them into the mangroves. I think a couple of those may still be there a decade later! Understand that many of these boats don't have insurance, and if you did not, you just lost your boat. Even worse, what happens if you were on the boat when it dragged into you? You cannot sue someone for something they don't have. So the mooring balls in Boot Key, for instance, are hurricane rated (I have been told Cat III but that is probably a stretch). They are safer when taking everything into account. And like I said, you get more boats into the field which is good for everyone except the guy with 200' of scope that wanted it all to himself.

So there are my opinions. Overall, I think they are a good thing. Some, like Boot Key, do it quite well. Some, like FMB, could use to work out their kinks a little better. But consider that there is not any more land, but there are increasingly more and more boats (and will really be more as the economy improves and baby boomers go on retirement). There are basically no laws demanding licensing for boating/seamanship, so you never know who or what is anchoring on top of you. I personally think that moorings will become more and more prominent. Kinda sad, because I really will miss the nice, peaceful anchorages.

Brian

PS you do know that in FMB and Boot Key, you can anchor outside of the mooring fields...


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

you can anchor outside all the mooring fields in Florida per state statute 327.02 this is law,plain and simple. put in place to clarify anchoring and defines anchoring as part of navigation.
the mooring field experiment is the end around play by the municipalities that feel they are above the law they perpetuated, promoted, and propagandized through misinformation campaigns and scare tactics sensationalizing rare incidents of boats washing ashore, and portraying anchoring sailors and liveaboards as bums,criminals and scofflaws.
Unknowing,in educated landlubbers and even many weekend boaters ate it up,hook, line and sinker.
there is and have been for years, laws in place to deal with abandoned, derelict, and unregistered boats. they are not being enforced.harbor master positions need not be created as anyone who has spent any time in Florida can attest there is ample law enforcement. the mooring fields are just a knee jerk response, there is not a single one that does not loose money.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

joethecobbler said:


> you can anchor outside all the mooring fields in Florida per state statute 327.02 this is law,plain and simple. put in place to clarify anchoring and defines anchoring as part of navigation.
> the mooring field experiment is the end around play by the municipalities that feel they are above the law they perpetuated, promoted, and propagandized through misinformation campaigns and scare tactics sensationalizing rare incidents of boats washing ashore, and portraying anchoring sailors and liveaboards as bums,criminals and scofflaws.
> Unknowing,in educated landlubbers and even many weekend boaters ate it up,hook, line and sinker.
> there is and have been for years, laws in place to deal with abandoned, derelict, and unregistered boats. they are not being enforced.harbor master positions need not be created as anyone who has spent any time in Florida can attest there is ample law enforcement. the mooring fields are just a knee jerk response, there is not a single one that does not loose money.


I respectfully disagree with that.

I saw the mooring fields as a way to manage the level of boats and traffic, and create a better environment for the city as a whole - including the boaters. I never saw them as a direct money making tool. But smart cities have learned that many cruisers have money. If you can give them a safe, secure, and pretty place to go on their boats that is not outrageously expensive, you will help the local businesses.

Have you forgotten the years in Boot Key and Fort Myers Beach when there were no pumpout boats? Everyone anchored on a shoestring? Heck, go through Boot Key now and you will see the same from some boats. The only thing that has kept some of these boats here and in FMB from not being the newest mangrove wind chime or fish haven is that there has not been a good storm through either in years. These boats WERE dumping straight into the bays, with no regard to the kids or tourists who swam on the shores beside them. There were no shower facilities, dedicated washing facilities, ability to get water, and I don't even remember a dinghy dock. SO what did the friendly boat-bums do? They tied up to the restaurants, swam (yes swam... I saw it several times) to the closest bars and walked up the docks, or my alltime favorite, they would go up one of the canals and tie off to someone's personal dock/house and tramp through their yard. I lived there so don't tell me it didn't happen. It was FILLED with vagrants. Many of those boats had not (and could not) move. It was a disaster and an eyesore and gave us all bad names.

The mooring field at Boot Key in Marathon is the perfect example of how to run a mooring field in a top notch way. Very clean and sturdy balls, a very large dinghy dock, a pumpout boat that comes in any weather and will come twice a week if you want, friendly staff, a place where the cruisers can hang out for free wifi, a library of books, a tiki hut looking over the bay with bi-weekely meet and greets, bbq grills, places to dispose of hazardous waste/diesel/gas for free, work benches to work on stuff, water, lockers to store things, place to park your cars and bikes, lots of showers and restrooms for free, descent washing facilities, and an overall sense of community. You want go give all that up and go back to anchoring with the homeless boaters? If you do, you are right, the vagrants will move back in. Look what's happening right now around Key Largo. They have the old anchored vagrants out there that are bathing (in light of day and front of kids) in the freaking public fountain, cursing, fighting, drunk, walking around naked, etc. Now, this is not all the people there. There is a good group of people and all it takes is a few dummies to screw it up, but if these people had the facilities available like are available at Boot Key, would they be doing that? No. But the reality is that these people don't have $300 to their name, and if they did, it has Pabst Blue Ribbon on it. They are Vagrants, homeless in a boat, plain and simple. THey are what gives all of us a bad name unless you sail in on the Maltese. In response to these actions, as you may well know, the city board was going to shut off the dinghy dock to ALL boaters and basically run them off... even the good live aboards who anchor there. Pleas from the 'good' liveaboards that anchor there have given the dinghy dock a short reprieve, but I doubt it will last long.

What is happening there is exactly what I remember happening in FMB before the mooring fields. There are still a bunch of vagrants back there outside of the field, still dumping their stuff into the bay, drunk and hollering at night, or sinking. At least the mooring field has helped it some. Me, I vote to keep the mooring fields in areas like FMB, Boot Key, Key West, etc. I hope they open one up in Key Largo, Islamorada, Factory Bay, and other large destinations. I think it is good for the environment, good for the cruisers, good for the liveaboards (that aren't bozos), and good for the city. It also helps keep the cost of marinas in check when they aren't the only option.

My opinions.

Brian


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Just follow the money trail folks. That wonderful mooring field in Marathon Key's Boot Key Harbor ain't cheap. $300 a month for my 33 Morgan. The Marathon City Marina's canal dockage isn't much of a bargain either. $750 a month to be tied to the bulkhead behind the poop boats. The dinghy dock is NOT free, neither is anything else there. Take a look at Pricing | City of Marathon Official Website and you'll get an idea of what it will cost a month to be anchored in Paradise.

That said, there was a waiting list for dockage and mooring the entire time I was there. I had to wait a month on a mooring ball to get dockage in the canal. The main reason I needed dockage was so I could load and unload my music equipment without fear of getting it wet. Additionally, I needed to protect the equipment, most of which is sensitive electronics, from moisture caused by high humidity, which was sometime the case. At the dock I could hook up to the electricity and run my onboard AC system.

If I get the opportunity to return to Boot Key Harbor, I'm going to try to work out a deal with one of the resort marinas where I can do some horse trading, slip rent for a night's music. They want me to return, and hopefully, this old man will still be able to do that in 2015 if my health doesn't go to Hell in a handbasket.

Cheers,

Gary


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

cruise dad, first I need need to say,I envy you in some ways, and respect your opinion. but you live in a different world, financially than many,by your own admission.
Secondly, thanks for making my point. ALL the negative things you list are already addressed by laws,public nudity,urination, illegal dumping, unfit vessel, trespass, vagrancy.
mooring fields are not necessary to abate these issues, enforcement of existing law's is. thanks again for making my point.
Also, the Marathon mooring field is the one everyone points to as the example. it's a financial loser as well.all mooring fields in Florida are. 
I support upland facilities, and I think the mooring field in Marathon is fine.but it is not and should not be there to eliminate anchoring. anchoring is a right of navigation in Florida under Florida state law,as it should be.
stop with the distractions of the other issues.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

travlineasy said:


> Just follow the money trail folks. That wonderful mooring field in Marathon Key's Boot Key Harbor ain't cheap. $300 a month for my 33 Morgan. The Marathon City Marina's canal dockage isn't much of a bargain either. $750 a month to be tied to the bulkhead behind the poop boats. The dinghy dock is NOT free, neither is anything else there. Take a look at Pricing | City of Marathon Official Website and you'll get an idea of what it will cost a month to be anchored in Paradise.
> 
> That said, there was a waiting list for dockage and mooring the entire time I was there. I had to wait a month on a mooring ball to get dockage in the canal. The main reason I needed dockage was so I could load and unload my music equipment without fear of getting it wet. Additionally, I needed to protect the equipment, most of which is sensitive electronics, from moisture caused by high humidity, which was sometime the case. At the dock I could hook up to the electricity and run my onboard AC system.
> 
> ...


Hey Gary,

Marinas here are now running $21.50/ft (even Sombrero) with rumors they will go up again! Key West? $34.50/ft plus utilities which ran us about $50/week. These rates are measured on Overall Length (anchor to davits) not USCG LOA!! RIght now, in the marina we are in, we are on the summer rate of $500 for the boat PLUS $2.50/ft for power. Goes up end of November. Suddenly that $300 ball doesn't sound so bad!

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

joethecobbler said:


> cruise dad, first I need need to say,I envy you in some ways, and respect your opinion. but you live in a different world, financially than many,by your own admission.
> Secondly, thanks for making my point. ALL the negative things you list are already addressed by laws,public nudity,urination, illegal dumping, unfit vessel, trespass, vagrancy.
> mooring fields are not necessary to abate these issues, enforcement of existing law's is. thanks again for making my point.
> Also, the Marathon mooring field is the one everyone points to as the example. it's a financial loser as well.all mooring fields in Florida are.
> ...


I respect your opinions too and you have some great insight on stuff.

You and I both agree that FL doesn't need a bunch more LEO's running around. Sometimes I think there are more LEos than people. Our difference of opinion is how to make it better, and I think the mooring fields work. I also believe, as mentioned earlier, they keep the marinas in check. The cost of marinas down here is getting silly (see my above post).

Remember, we are on the same side here. We are both LA's and Cruisers.

Brian


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

anchoring, as has been. done for all of written history = $0.00 can't get any better than that.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

cruise dad- you say we're on the same side.but it's the case of unintended consequence.
my way = you can anchor or Moore, your choice. still have to abide by environment laws, and all other laws.only difference, I anchored you paid for mooring. I can still utilize all upland facilities (for a fee). no harm no foul.
your way= you MUST Moore AND MUST PAY or you cannot stay.
simple.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

I am a Florida homeowner and Florida resident have been. for over 2decades. the effect of the mandatory mooring and elimination of an anchoring option will mearly keep me from the areas where these restrictions exist. thereby limiting my options when cruising.
for me an unpleasant annoyance, I'll simply go to other places of my choosing, leaving the restricted areas to the better heeled cruisers and those afraid of their ground tackle.
fortunately the east coast is vast, unfortunately I'll be keeping all the "new" places I find a secret, so the money doesn't show up and ruin them for myself and others of like mind.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

joethecobbler said:


> cruise dad- you say we're on the same side.but it's the case of unintended consequence.
> my way = you can anchor or Moore, your choice. still have to abide by environment laws, and all other laws.only difference, I anchored you paid for mooring. I can still utilize all upland facilities (for a fee). no harm no foul.
> your way= you MUST Moore AND MUST PAY or you cannot stay.
> simple.


Please show me where I said that. In fact, I said on my first post (which still sits unedited) that you can anchor outside the mooring fields. However, I still find many of these fields (using FMB as an example I know well) as the vagrant disaster you keep saying you do not like.

Anchoring does not a vagrant make. I use my ground tackle a lot, more than most. However, these are very crowded and busy areas with a LOT of boats. Even with the mooring balls which can accomodate a lot more boats than boats anchored properly, Boot Key still fills up as does FMB.

The system works... and I have been a houseowner in FL too for many years, and a business owner. What you are talking about is a bad solution to those areas. I do not want it for every area, but certain areas it makes sense.

Brian

Edit to be clear, I am not a homeowner now. SOld it.


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## GrummanPilot (Oct 25, 2011)

You keep citing the Marathon mooring field as an example. I have no knowledge about that.

But the very expensive mooring field in Sarasota was implemented for one reason - to enable the city to ban anchoring within view of water front homes.



Cruisingdad said:


> I respectfully disagree with that.
> 
> I saw the mooring fields as a way to manage the level of boats and traffic, and create a better environment for the city as a whole - including the boaters. I never saw them as a direct money making tool. But smart cities have learned that many cruisers have money. If you can give them a safe, secure, and pretty place to go on their boats that is not outrageously expensive, you will help the local businesses.
> 
> ...


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

in St.Augustine the whole city is a no anchoring area except for one tiny spot ,in front of the inlet. the salt run-moorings,north and south of the bridge of Lyons -mooring. you cannot anchor in Sebastian creek or ANYWHERE IN CITY LIMITS.
sounds alot like pay or don't stay.
no problem, I plan according.
yes,in most cases mooring better utilizes the former anchorage for maximum capacity, so do floating docks. using that thinking maybe we could just make the whole cove a giant Marina with piers and docks.
just what I'm after, not.
news flash- if it's full it's full whether it's 2boats or 200 there is a limt.
so which flawed argument are you going with? the derelict one the environment one,or the capacity one?
my position is clear,and precises no-one.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

btw,I am a homeowne,was a business owner, sold the business when the law changed and required me to be licensed to continue to offer the services I had been providing for decades, licensing was in excess of $2000.00 sold it to the next Guy, he lasted 2 years, it was a business that had existed for over 90 years.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I don't mind paying for a mooring now and then, especially if a long-term rental is reasonably priced. It really is much better and much less risky to have the boat on the end of a 300# mushroom anchor. I often avoid venturing very far ashore because of the risk involved in leaving the boat anchored. It must be extremely expensive to install and the maintain the municipal moorings in good condition. The big problem arises when anchorages get full of moorings in disrepair. They are then just taking up space because people will not rent moorings they cannot trust. At least I would not. I always do a quick inspection of the condition of a rented mooring and have seen some I would never trust the boat on. 
As for the homeless RIF-raff, well there have to be some standards of decent behavior that civilized people adhere to. That's why we have laws about dumping crap and disruptive behavior. The rules don't have to be onerous but there do need to be rules.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

why is it that anyone would think being tied to a mooring rather than an anchor would stop illegal dumping, disorderly conduct or any other issue nearly by attaching to a mooring.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

Having lived in Florida for the best part of 60 years I have seen a good part of the way the waterfront has developed and I would say that both sides of this arguement have merit. The biggest concern that I have for my own little piece of paradise is the number of derelict boats that are anchored out in the area. Now that condo fever has subsided and the national economy has tanked the number of these derelicts has at least tripled if not quadrupled over the last couple of years and if something doesn't happen soon I am afraid that the City will have to drop the hammer and try to address this issue. Abandoning a boat on an anchor is not anchoring out and the clowns that have done this are the very ones that caused this debacle in the first place. I really don't think that the municipalities started the mooring fields to generate excess revenue, part of the major constituentcy of any city government with a large area of waterfront is going to be the folks that were able to pay 6 and 7 figures for their waterfront properties and the accompaning tax bills associated with it. Those kinds of folks usually have the ears of the politicians and if you had that kind of money invested in your property you might be inclinded to bend the ears of those politicans with regard to the derelict boats.
It's just a shame that there will always be a$$wholes that ruin it for those of us who cherish our boats for the little holes in the water that they are, and yes I did mean to spell a$$whole that way as in whole or completely or thru and thru; take your pick.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

if you own waterfront or are concerned about vessels anchored and think they are abandoned or derelict. in Florida you have the option of exorcising your right to make your concerns known to the law enforcement. they are paid by you to enforce the laws against vessel abandonment,it is a misdemeanor in Florida. if it is deemed a vessel at risk it can be removed. these laws have been in effect for years. if you just don't like the fact the fact that someone anchored in view of you and they are registered, displaying proper anchor light,daymark(one black ball)and the Hull id is present, then your out of luck. they are legal and your jealous.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

My concern is over zealous enforcement, which occured regularly in South Florida and has taken a lot of money and effort to correct... for the time being anyway. As O.J. once said " they got sum funny laws in Florida" and like all laws they are subject to change. As to the jealousy, I am not jealous at all of the top of the mast sticking out of the water, a result of some jacka$$ out of town owner not bothering to check on his boat. What I am saying is that irresponsible boat owners gave anchoring out a bad wrap and that contributed to the enactment of strict enforcement in the first place.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I think a lot of whining and crying over nothing. If you don't like the rules don't go to those places.


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## Zac Penn (Aug 6, 2013)

Sorry to be so ignorant, but where do you find out about specific anchoring rules for the a city you are visiting?


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Don0190 said:


> I think a lot of whining and crying over nothing. If you don't like the rules don't go to those places.


Some people agree with you. I have owner-aboard delivery customers sailing from Norfolk or Beaufort to the Abacos specifically to avoid Florida.

Florida doesn't seem to care.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

GrummanPilot said:


> You keep citing the Marathon mooring field as an example. I have no knowledge about that.
> 
> But the very expensive mooring field in Sarasota was implemented for one reason - to enable the city to ban anchoring within view of water front homes.


You mean the same mooring field that reduced illegal dumping and boats washing ashore - which both boaters and the city agree happened? And as far as the expense, most of that expense was covered by state grants as part of the pilot program.

I have not used the Sarasota field, but have been by it of course. I have no idea if that field was necessary or not. But i have used many of the others and Marathon is a shining example of how to do it right.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

joethecobbler said:


> in St.Augustine the whole city is a no anchoring area except for one tiny spot ,in front of the inlet. the salt run-moorings,north and south of the bridge of Lyons -mooring. you cannot anchor in Sebastian creek or ANYWHERE IN CITY LIMITS.
> sounds alot like pay or don't stay.
> no problem, I plan according.
> yes,in most cases mooring better utilizes the former anchorage for maximum capacity, so do floating docks. using that thinking maybe we could just make the whole cove a giant Marina with piers and docks.
> ...


As I said before, and I keep saying, if you want to avoid having the coastline filled with very expensive marinas, put in mooring balls. They keep the marinas in check.

As far as my argument, I am using all of them. Mooring fields, in high traffic areas, are plain and simple better. You already agreed with me that it allows more boats. Certainly no argument there. They reduce the number of derelict boats running up on the shore. Want proof? I can cite sources... but I doubt you would argue with me there. Environmental one... no doubt about that one either.

So other than the fact that you get to anchor for 'free', please tell me all the benefits of having high trafficked areas for anchoring and no mooring balls? Good luck with that argument.

Brian


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> Some people agree with you. I have owner-aboard delivery customers sailing from Norfolk or Beaufort to the Abacos specifically to avoid Florida.
> 
> Florida doesn't seem to care.


Having lived in Florida, it's easy to see the problem. The real estate developers have an unbelievably effective lobby in Florida government.

This isn't the worst thing they have rammed through. They pushed a restructuring of property taxes that basically forces people off family land when they inherit it, in order to free it up for condo development and real estate broker profits.

I've had friends who had to sell family homes on the ocean they inherited, because the taxes were so high they couldn't afford to keep it. A year later, it's bulldozed and gone and a condo sits where they grew up.

This is all about property values and selling condos. Nothing else.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

joethecobbler said:


> why is it that anyone would think being tied to a mooring rather than an anchor would stop illegal dumping, disorderly conduct or any other issue nearly by attaching to a mooring.


Have you ever used one of these mooring fields Joe? I am serious? Ever in your life? Because it is comments like that which show me that you never have, or you intentionally are forgetting them.

On a mooring ball, as you would know if you had ever used one, you are REQUIRED to have a pumpout. No choice. You MUST have a way to get a pumoout and comply with federal regulations. It is part of what you pay for and it is free. They come to your boat and do it for you. Not only that, but they monitor how much comes out and log it with the state. How could you not know that if you have used these?

On a mooring ball, you are registered and must register with the office that runs it. They have a list of rules and conduct or you are GONE... and they know exactly where to send the sheriff. How could you not know that?

As you should know, or are simply trying to ignore, it is vastly easier to monitor vessels and what they are doing when you have a clear number assigned to them, when they are registered to you, and you have their legal documentation. You can't keep track of anchored vessels coming in and out of a bay. There is no organization to that. How do you monitor them? How do you know if they are getting pumped out? How do you know if they know how to anchor? And as I keep saying, and you agree with, how do you handle the large volume of vessels in such a tight space without mooring fields?

Joe, I have no problem with you anchoring out. I do it too and prefer anchoring out to being on a mooring ball. However, and a BIG HOWEVER, there are some high-traffic areas that are vastly benefited by a mooring field. Marathon is one. Fort Myers Beach is one. Key West is one. In all three of these places you can still anchor (albeit further away than the mooring fields), but have the option of using the mooring fields. The benefits of the mooring fields are:

You are securely moored for most weather.
You should not have to worry about other boats dragging into you (safer).
You can put more boats into the same space.
Water stays cleaner due to pumpouts, which are 'free' as part of your monthly fee.
You have a place to take your trash (for free).
You have a place to take a shower (for free).
You have a place to get fresh water (for free).
You have access to laundry facilities.
You have a dedicated dinghy dock.
It is a more managed (safer) environment.
You have a place to park a car.
You have a place to park your bike.

It is not just about a mooring ball, it is an entire environment. Most of these services (and in some cases none of them) were available before these mooring fields. It simply was not as cruiser friendly. The only negative here is that, yeah, ya gotta pay a fee to use the balls. Well sorry, life isn't free. Handling the trash isn't free. Dinghy docks aren't free. Pumpouts aren't free. The land to park bikes and cars isn't free. Fresh water isn't free.

I remember, very well as someone that was there before the fields, what it was like without the mooring balls. I have no interest in returning back to those days. I can now cruise the entire keys or west coast of Florida and I have a place where I can stop and utilize these services for a very small amount of money - especially compared to the asinine cost of marinas. I can anchor out as long as I want between these places, always knowing that a reasonably priced (and cruiser friendly) field is within a day's sail. I love it.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Group9 said:


> Having lived in Florida, it's easy to see the problem. The real estate developers have an unbelievably effective lobby in Florida government.
> 
> This isn't the worst thing they have rammed through. They pushed a restructuring of property taxes that basically forces people off family land when they inherit it, in order to free it up for condo development and real estate broker profits.
> 
> ...


Not just Florida. Wasn't in CT where they took a strip of prime real estate which was single family homes, a developer wanted it so went to the city council, the city agreed they would get more taxes littering it with condos, so forced every one of the homeowners out on "imminent domain". That story was about a year ago. It also passed through the high courts, as I recall, as acceptable.

Take a look at this and see if this isn't scary stuff:

The Institute for Justice

Brian


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Cruisingdad said:


> Not just Florida. Wasn't in CT where they took a strip of prime real estate which was single family homes, a developer wanted it so went to the city council, the city agreed they would get more taxes littering it with condos, so forced every one of the homeowners out on "imminent domain". That story was about a year ago. It also passed through the high courts, as I recall, as acceptable.
> 
> Take a look at this and see if this isn't scary stuff:
> 
> ...


*Kelso vs. City of New London !!!!!*.... a landmark case involving 'eminent domain' in the US Supreme Court that essentially nullified individual property rights, and nullified a portion of the 5th Amendment, of the US Constitution etc. Many states reacted to this very SAD adverse ruling by enacting stronger 'eminent domain' statutes in their own state constitutions as result; but, not 'all' states (of course, as many state legislators are 'beholdin' to the 'home building industry' for a major portion of their election/reelection campaign funds, etc.). Simply a case of 'money talks' - IMO.

Kelo v. City of New London - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I don't understand the land owners view argument. Why would a condo//homeowner want to look at at say 100 boats on moorings verse say 20 boats on anchor?

I would think they would prefer to have less boats not more.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> I don't understand the land owners view argument. Why would a condo//homeowner want to look at at say 100 boats on moorings verse say 20 boats on anchor?
> 
> I would think they would prefer to have less boats not more.


They don't want either one, but you have to start somewhere.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Don0190 said:


> I don't understand the land owners view argument. Why would a condo//homeowner want to look at at say 100 boats on moorings verse say 20 boats on anchor?
> 
> I would think they would prefer to have less boats not more.


I'm with ya Don. The bigger kicker in all this is many of those homes were built WITH THOSE BOATS SITTING THERE! Ha! Then they get it built and want the boats gone. Really? That's like another one of my favorite Florida gigs where people buy and build their houses right next to the highway, then petition the state to build these huge stone walls for sight and sound preservation.

Really???

But in the instances of the places I mentioned, as many people know, these mooring fields hold many more boats than the same area would hold if these boats were anchored... and they still fill up! It is not unusual to see boats anchored off the west side of Marathon (Boot Key) waiting to get a ball in season. And some people want to do away with the mooring field to take even fewer boats?

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Group9 said:


> They don't want either one, but you have to start somewhere.


I respectfully disagree - as someone who has also owned waterfront property off the ICW.

Most don't care (and actually like) boats anchored off. It is pretty. WHat they don't want is you taking your dog to crap on their lawn (happened to me). They don't want you throwing your trash on their property or the closest land mass or the bay. They don't want you dumping your poop off their docks or showering naked off their homes. They don't want you anchoring your boat in the middle of the freaking canal and blocking all traffic (happened to me). They don't want you tying your tender to their docks and marching through their property so you can go shopping. They don't want you taking their fresh water.

Mooring fields, properly run, do not remove all the nutters. That is never going to happen. But when you put in these fields and provide all these services, you really reduce (if not eliminate) many of those problems. You are giving people legal access to options they did not have before. They don't need to dump their heads in the bay... you come pump it out for them at no cost. They have a place to take their trash and hazardous waste... for free. THey can get all the fresh water they want. They can shower in descent stalls. They have descent bathrooms. Marathon is a shinning example of a system that works and makes sense and makes life very comfortable and enjoyable for a cruiser and/or liveaboard.

Brian


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Group9 said:


> They don't want either one, but you have to start somewhere.


Same thing with city folks moving to 'the country' and adjacent to a pig farm, and then complain incessantly about the stink. 
Ditto too, with people moving next to an airport and then continually complaining about 'the airplane noise'.

Its all about *CONTROL* and if you have the $$$$ you can easily BUY all the 'control' that you need - simple. :-(


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> You mean the same mooring field that reduced illegal dumping and boats washing ashore - which both boaters and the city agree happened? And as far as the expense, most of that expense was covered by state grants as part of the pilot program.
> 
> I have not used the Sarasota field, but have been by it of course. I have no idea if that field was necessary or not. But i have used many of the others and Marathon is a shining example of how to do it right.
> 
> Brian


I wouldn't say its a shining example...yet. Its so easy to overlook the fact that the program and facilities are *NEW* right now. What happens in 10-15 years when the facilities are in need of renovation and the employees working there are getting union scale wages with platinum benefits.

The long term implication is that WE WILL PAY. Mooring fees will rise dramatically as soon as the pump out boat needs to be replaced and the showers are old/decrepit. This happens over and over in so called model communities. Then the first renovation cycle comes due and the place just falls apart as the city and residents are unwilling to keep the facilities modern. So they soak us with "use fees"

The worst part is that the state and city planners (*KNOW*) this. They're beholden to the waterfront property owners that dont want you cheapo sailors in their waterfront view. So in the end...say 10 years from now...a decrepit expensive empty mooring field is to their advantage. They can say "they offer facilities" to cruisers...but no one is going to use them.

Public loses access to waterfront and the big fish rich guy win again.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Cruisingdad said:


> I respectfully disagree - as someone who has also owned waterfront property off the ICW.
> 
> Most don't care (and actually like) boats anchored off. It is pretty. WHat they don't want is you taking your dog to crap on their lawn (happened to me). They don't want you throwing your trash on their property or the closest land mass or the bay. They don't want you dumping your poop off their docks or showering naked off their homes. They don't want you anchoring your boat in the middle of the freaking canal and blocking all traffic (happened to me). They don't want you tying your tender to their docks and marching through their property so you can go shopping. They don't want you taking their fresh water.
> 
> ...


Main thing is to get them out of sight, though, right?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

The mooring effort is an attempt to remedy an extremely difficult situation because there are so many different objectives at play. At least they are making an attempt to make these mooring areas accessible to everyone. If the fields like Marathon are managed for the long run and the equipment is placed on a maintenance schedule and depreciation and reinvestment is calculated in the mooring fees, there is absolutely no reason that the facilities should deteriorate. Granted, government is not always good at seeing ahead very far. They should also not become any more expensive than basic inflation dictates with sound management. Florida seems to do a pretty good job, compared to other states, at managing the cost of government. People working for government do not seem to be overpaid as can be the case in other states (like NY where I live). Just check the condition of pension funds to get a picture of relative incompetence

The only complaints from boaters seem to have come as a result of over zealousness on the part of a very small number of members of LE.

As far as the development is concerned, I think all those condos are as ugly as all get-out but that's free enterprise at work. (Who the heck buys all those condos?) Southern Florida along 95 looks like a 300 mile long strip mall. UUUUUUUUUUUUUgly! But there are also a significant number of miles of undeveloped ocean shoreline that have been reserved for public use.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

smurphny said:


> The mooring effort is an attempt to remedy an extremely difficult situation because there are so many different objectives at play. At least they are making an attempt to make these mooring areas accessible to everyone. If the fields like Marathon are managed for the long run and the equipment is placed on a maintenance schedule and depreciation and reinvestment is calculated in the mooring fees, there is absolutely no reason that the facilities should deteriorate. Granted, government is not always good at seeing ahead very far. They should also not become any more expensive than basic inflation dictates with sound management. Florida seems to do a pretty good job, compared to other states, at managing the cost of government. People working for government do not seem to be overpaid as can be the case in other states (like NY where I live). Just check the condition of pension funds to get a picture of relative incompetence
> 
> The only complaints from boaters seem to have come as a result of over zealousness on the part of a very small number of members of LE.


That's not my only complaint. My complaint is that the remedy punishes the guilty and not guilty, with equal enthusiasm, making me highly cynical of the honesty of the stated aims of the program.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

night0wl said:


> I wouldn't say its a shining example...yet. Its so easy to overlook the fact that the program and facilities are *NEW* right now. What happens in 10-15 years when the facilities are in need of renovation and the employees working there are getting union scale wages with platinum benefits.
> 
> The long term implication is that WE WILL PAY. Mooring fees will rise dramatically as soon as the pump out boat needs to be replaced and the showers are old/decrepit. This happens over and over in so called model communities. Then the first renovation cycle comes due and the place just falls apart as the city and residents are unwilling to keep the facilities modern. So they soak us with "use fees"
> 
> ...


No one knows what will happen in the future. But I can tell you what they had in the past didn't work. I will say, though, that Florida, Colorado, and Washington KNOW where their money comes from - it comes from tourism.

For example, there is no doubt in your mind when you cross the state line between Florida and Alabama. The rest areas in FLorida are nice, patrolled, and kept up. The roads are generally nicer. The grounds in most of the cities are nicer. I am not picking on Alabama. Texas and LA could learn a few things too. But Florida knows where its money comes from and they do a great job of keeping these things nice and attractive.

I would like (LIKE) to believe that they will do the same with the waterways. I would like to believe they will do the same with the mooring fields. I will tell you this, there are some extraordinary waterfront parks on the west coast of Florida. On Emerson Point, there is a floating dinghy dock on the park with access to miles of trails. You can beach on Desoto Point and and walk through a great history lesson of what a murderer Desoto was. What about Pelican Bay where you can anchor (for free) and use the dinghy dock for a small charge, and walk the trails and over tot he gulf for a swim?

What I think (in my opinion) is that the people who most complain about the mooring fields would be the people who will complain even louder when there isn't a pumpout boat that comes to pump them out for free, or they cannot get rid of their trash, or they cannot get water, showers, toilets, etc. Suddenly that $15 mooring ball isn't so expensive and looks like a great deal. Because you want to know what marinas are running down here???

Marathon - Key West

$2.50-$4.50/ft measured overall length from anchor to davits per night.

$21.50/ft measured same for a month in Marathon.

$34.50/ft in Key West Bight (the cheapest... Galleon is even more) PLUS electricity at $50+ dollars a week. A 40 foot boat, measure overall, can easily be looking at $1700/month!!!

Fort Myers Beach

Snook Bight is $14.50/ft, plus electricity, plus $35 for pool/showers, plus 50 for first liveaboard and $25 for everyone after that...

We stayed at Salty Sams and they charged us $25 for a pumpout. Twenty-five for one pumpout and we were paying for slippage! And it is the same price as SNook Bight.

The Harborage in St Pete will easily run you 7-800 for a 40' boat... easily.

And yet, we are complaining about $15 for a mooring ball????? Really? $300 for the month and EVERYTHING is included! You cannot even get a hotel down here for a couple of days for that. You sure aren't going to get a marina for that. Yet, you pull these mooring balls, and in addition to the vagrants moving back in like roaches at a Taco Bell, all those services will likely disappear. THat was the way it used to be, remember?? Turds floating down the canals? Bathing naked in their cockpits. People walking through people's lawns and stealing their water. Trash thrown overboard or in people lawn.

Not to mention, what incentives do the marinas have to keep their already ridiculous prices from going higher? Where else are you going to get water? Get pumped out? Get rid of your trash? Park your dinghy? It doesn't (legally) work. Now for those who dump illegally and really couldn't care about any of these laws, well, I guess damn the torpedoes and sink those mooring balls. Me, I like knowing that I am a day's sail from all of these amenities, which are cheap, safe, and legal. I will do my time and I bug out and go anchor somewhere else that is prettier and free.

Get rid of this stuff? No thank you. Like I said, I remember what it used to be like.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

smurphny said:


> The mooring effort is an attempt to remedy an extremely difficult situation because there are so many different objectives at play. At least they are making an attempt to make these mooring areas accessible to everyone. If the fields like Marathon are managed for the long run and the equipment is placed on a maintenance schedule and depreciation and reinvestment is calculated in the mooring fees, there is absolutely no reason that the facilities should deteriorate. Granted, government is not always good at seeing ahead very far. They should also not become any more expensive than basic inflation dictates with sound management. Florida seems to do a pretty good job, compared to other states, at managing the cost of government. People working for government do not seem to be overpaid as can be the case in other states (like NY where I live). Just check the condition of pension funds to get a picture of relative incompetence
> 
> The only complaints from boaters seem to have come as a result of over zealousness on the part of a very small number of members of LE.
> 
> As far as the development is concerned, I think all those condos are as ugly as all get-out but that's free enterprise at work. (Who the heck buys all those condos?) Southern Florida along 95 looks like a 300 mile long strip mall. UUUUUUUUUUUUUgly! But there are also a significant number of miles of undeveloped ocean shoreline that have been reserved for public use.


Right on.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Group9 said:


> That's not my only complaint. My complaint is that the remedy punishes the guilty and not guilty, with equal enthusiasm, making me highly cynical of the honesty of the stated aims of the program.


Please define that with specifics.

Brian


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

cruise dad- Each of your points are false,read on.
in Annapolis the have a pump boat, if you are ANCHORED there you are required to pumpout ,they monitor each boat that comes and goes.
so much for that argument.
As for fresh water, I have a Our Katydin RO system, so I make my own.
so much for that argument.
I have 2 heads and a shower.
So much for that argument.
I have a Splendide 2000S washer/dryer.
so much for that argument.
as for dingy access, are you familiar with the phrase PUBLIC ACCESS, or Boat Ramp?
again, so much for that argument.
Bike parking, I don't park,I ride it and take it back to the boat on my sailing /rowing dingy.
so much for that argument.
You will also note that these systems aboard my boat are not FREE as you point out (in a feeble attempt to portray me as a freeloader)
so,keep obfuscating the discussion, I can refute every point you throw up.I've heard them ALL before, they are still false flags.
you see Dave, I have no problem with casual hobby boaters who ill prepare there craft so they can visit places.
I do take issue with those same people when they try to tell me what I cannot do.
this is not just a passing interest, it's my lifestyle, I plan on living it until I'm dead.
most do not.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

In the end, regulations and laws always boil down to who is willing to fork over the most money to legislatures and city councils to get what they want.

In that war, boaters are never going to win.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Group9 said:


> Main thing is to get them out of sight, though, right?


No, the main thing is to make it a good environment and friendly for boaters and home owners alike. Boaters benefit out of them too... just not the vagrants.

Remember, many (if not most) of these waterfront homeowners have boats too... most of them larger and vastly more expensive than yours and mine.

Ever been to Naples????? Marco? Heck, just go up and down the canals in Marathon and you are in for an eye opener. Insane money.

Brian


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

when you sacrifice freedom for convenience, you will soon find you have neither.
you know who said that?
I did,just now. pay attention.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

your recurring theme is money, money, money.
and how it's all better.

what's more, the way you tell it,a whole bunch of boaters are low life vagrant. freeloaders with no regard for the environment or personal property rights, trespassers and litterbugs?
but somehow. mooring balls cure all these ills and magically eliminate all those vices.
incredible, the power of the mooring ball!
who. knew?


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

joethecobbler said:


> cruise dad- Each of your points are false,read on.
> in Annapolis the have a pump boat, if you are ANCHORED there you are required to pumpout ,they monitor each boat that comes and goes.
> so much for that argument.
> As for fresh water, I have a Our Katydin RO system, so I make my own.
> ...


Exactly my point. You just showed the need for these things. So, using that reasoning...

Are you suggesting that every boat has a watermaker? SHould we pass a law that every boat has to have a water maker?

Should we pass a law that every boat has to have a shower?

I don't CARE what Annapolis is doing, we are talking about Florida. So who is going to pay for your little pumpout boat in Florida? SHould the state eat that cost so you don't have to pony up $15 for a mooring ball? Just so you know, my last pumpout in Fort Myers Beach at a marina was $25 (and that is without tip)!!! That is more than the cost of a mooring ball!!

That you have a head on your boat means little to me. What does mean something to me is what you do with it when it is full!!

Where are you taking your trash, Joe?? Trash is one of the biggest issues facing cruisers.

Where are you making your water, Joe? Would you make that water in Fort Myers Beach without a pumpout boat when people are dumping their crap all around you? DOn't tell me it didn't happen, I was there. Would you do it in Boot Key?

I am glad you have a washer and dryer. You should participate in my thread on washing clothes aboard. I have a bucket and Magic Wonder that works great too (read my thread). But how many other people have this stuff?? Or should we pass a law that everyone has to have a Splindide on their boat? Guess what Joe, since it may heave been a while since you were down here as you hate these mooring balls, want to know how you are going to wash your clothes in Marathon without using the city marinas (balls)? YOU AREN'T. They closed down the last laudromat. So it is the city, a marina, or a bucket... unless we pass the Splidide Law.

Most cruisers and live aboards, Joe, do NOT bring their bikes back and forth. SHould we also pass a law that requires all bicycles to be hauled back to boats everyday so we don't have to have a mooring ball?

SO tell me how you fix this stuff? Tell me why the old system worked, Joe. I was there. I remember. It didn't. Period.

The issue here is that while you may have many of the systems to work around some of these problems, most boaters dont. And are you actually expecting everyone to have a water maker at X thousands of dollars? A washer/dryer at X thousands of dollars? Your argument simply doesn't work. It hasn't worked. It will never work.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

joethecobbler said:


> your recurring theme is money, money, money.
> and how it's all better.
> 
> what's more, the way you tell it,a whole bunch of boaters are low life vagrant. freeloaders with no regard for the environment or personal property rights, trespassers and litterbugs?
> ...


You recurring theme is there was no problem and mooring balls are evil because I have the systems to get around them - everyone should... or you shouldn't boat.

Brian


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

brian- no new laws,do as you. wish as long as it is within the confines of existing laws.
that is the whole "rub" with. this topic for me.
you apparently can't. grasp that.
Also, if you need a Florida example of a pump out boat, I'll give you one.
Stuart Florida - hail them on ch16
so much for that argument, keep trying.
like. I said, this ain't my first rodeo.

and by the by, I'm soon conceding to an onboard MSD1. thereby eliminating the need for pumpout!
keep trying, I got the. rest of my life,I'm just sitting here swinging on the hook,for free.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

big difference between my approach and yours is,I'm not telling y'all what you need or don't need.
you wanna pay for a mooring and upland facilities, go for it.
but don't tell me I cannot or should not anchor, and then try to justify your position by portraying me as a vagrant, politer,trespasser,or one who would foist my living method on others by slanderous methods.
landlubbers might fall for that, but I know the truth.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

smurphny said:


> The mooring effort is an attempt to remedy an extremely difficult situation because there are so many different objectives at play. At least they are making an attempt to make these mooring areas accessible to everyone. If the fields like Marathon are managed for the long run and the equipment is placed on a maintenance schedule and depreciation and reinvestment is calculated in the mooring fees, there is absolutely no reason that the facilities should deteriorate. Granted, government is not always good at seeing ahead very far. They should also not become any more expensive than basic inflation dictates with sound management. Florida seems to do a pretty good job, compared to other states, at managing the cost of government. People working for government do not seem to be overpaid as can be the case in other states (like NY where I live). Just check the condition of pension funds to get a picture of relative incompetence
> 
> The only complaints from boaters seem to have come as a result of over zealousness on the part of a very small number of members of LE.
> 
> As far as the development is concerned, I think all those condos are as ugly as all get-out but that's free enterprise at work. (Who the heck buys all those condos?) Southern Florida along 95 looks like a 300 mile long strip mall. UUUUUUUUUUUUUgly! But there are also a significant number of miles of undeveloped ocean shoreline that have been reserved for public use.


So, I have to pay a fee that increases with inflation to enjoy....what is rightfully mine to enjoy as a citizen? This doesn't make sense to me. You assume all things rise at a minimum with inflation. Median income the last 10 years has fallen inflation adjusted. Will use fees fall too?Has Marathon REDUCED mooring ball charges as wages of the average American have fallen?

Pfffffft.

When was the last time anyone in government CUT a fee or made things more affordable. All they'll do is NOT RAISE fees for a year or two, then soak you with a massive hike as soon as they can.

This is a land grab to placate waterfront home owners...an end around to diminish access to waterways.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

joethecobbler said:


> and by the by, I'm soon conceding to an onboard MSD1. thereby eliminating the need for pumpout!
> keep trying, I got the. rest of my life,I'm just sitting here swinging on the hook,for free.


I am sure you know this Joe, being as it is not your first Rodeo, you cannot use an Electro Scan anywhere in the Florida Keys. Tortugas too. MSD 1's are illegal in both areas including other areas up the east coast.

But again, this isn't your first rodeo so I am sure you know that. It is pumpout or Type 3. It is all NDZ and funny how those zones keep expanding. So is Rhode Island, parts of Maryland, many parts of New York, yada yada, yada.

If any of those areas are on your radar, I wouldn't rip out that holding tank just yet.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

joethecobbler said:


> big difference between my approach and yours is,I'm not telling y'all what you need or don't need.
> you wanna pay for a mooring and upland facilities, go for it.
> but don't tell me I cannot or should not anchor, and then try to justify your position by portraying me as a vagrant, politer,trespasser,or one who would foist my living method on others by slanderous methods.
> landlubbers might fall for that, but I know the truth.


Quit trying to mince my words and shuffle them around to things I never said.

I anchor out too.

In my first post I explained to you that you can still anchor out around these mooring fields.

I never, ever called you a vagrant. I have, however, found many vagrants boating. I also found that they seem to bunch together in places where they can live for free while still having access to amenities.

ANd don't tell me about landlubbers and I know the truth quite well too. I have raised my kids on the water. I lived where these things were happening. None (zero, zilch) of your comments make sense. They don't work. They didn't work before. THey won't work again.

I am not advocating filling Florida with mooring balls. I am advocating their use in areas where there is heavy traffic. These areas are FMB, Key West, and Marathon. We already run out of balls there and you can put more boats on balls than anchored... yet another argument you keep ignoring by making up facts and trying to twist my comments around.

Here is what we do: You go to the Florida site and tell them how terrible it is. I will go there and tell them how great it is. They will make their decisions from there. But if they pull the balls, I sure don't want to hear one complaint from you or others about : I can't get rid of my trash, I can't get a pumpout, I don't have a place to anchor, I can't park my bike, etc. Marinas are expensive and they are getting higher. I can't afford to boat anymore.

You brought it on yourself. It will be right back to where it was several years ago and a nightmare. I would just LOVE to see you running your water maker in the old Mantanzas Pass or Boot Key. Luperon doesn't have anything on that place the way it was. It was Grosse!!!

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

night0wl said:


> So, I have to pay a fee that increases with inflation to enjoy....what is rightfully mine to enjoy as a citizen?


It's not just yours. It's mine. It is theirs. It is everyone's. The answer is not to just ignore it and let it just devolve as it may, but to create an environment that is good for everyone and where most (I doubt all) of the expenses to maintain it (not to put it in, a key point) are supported by those who primary use it.



night0wl said:


> Has Marathon REDUCED mooring ball charges as wages of the average American have fallen?


It is $300/month for everything I just listed. Option two is to go to a marina. That is (40 foot boat) real close to a grand a month. In Key West, almost two grand a month.

Also, at $300/month, boats are waiting in line to get in every season. Their numbers can't be too far off.

Brian


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

thanks for the mad info. as I mentioned still looking into my options
but I must point out of all the other points I made and falsehoods you attempted to herald. you chose this one!
it clearly indicates your flawed thinking.
what is it that makes you so vitriol and bitter against basic freedom of choice. particularly when discussing such a trivial topic?
is it you just cannot admit your view is not omnipotent?
or is it something deeper?
anchoring is a time honored right of navigation.
why would you,a self professed sailor whish to see that right diminished in any manner?
answer =cruising is a passing fashion for you and many others and you will none to soon become board with it and find a new hobby, and none too soon IMO.
unfortunately your good intentioned, albeit misguided approach, and the associated unintended consequences will linger.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I wonder if some people actually read the stuff they have posted? If you really are the type that feel the govt is out to get you and take away your "free" rights and stuff (all of which have to be paid for by someone) please be "free" to move along to somewhere else!

I doubt there are many water front business etc that are trying to get the boats out view. If there were they sure as hell wouldn't put in a mooring field! I bet most people like looking at boats out in the harbor. BUT I bet they don't like looking at falling apart piece of crap boats that are nothing but an eye sore and come with low lives. Some will get on their high horse and say that is elitist talk about the level of boats, tough! The only people in the harbor who what to look a a piece of crap boat all covered in bird crap is whoever lives on that boat.

As to the "high" cost of using these FL mooring fields, you people need to get out more! Some of us would kill for such a good deal.

But if you just have to be an anchor out (and I like to do this and have spent a lot of money on equipment to do so) there are choices from what I have read. BUT don't then expect as some "right" that you get to bring your dinghy into the dock etc, tie it up, and use everything else for free. That stuff isn't free, someone has spent money on it and lots of times it is general taxpayers who don't even have a boat but are paying for your "free" right.

Some people are just whining crybabies who get upset when they can not mooch off others. If it has become too hard to mooch maybe it is time to move on!


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

if,or when all those things happen,it won't bother me a bit.
actually I look forward to such a scenario. 
as,if all that happened the free market will moderate the cost of those upland facilities and Marina's pricing will reflect that.
all in true capitalism.
one example of this is the price and availability of slips in the Daytona area. a couple years back, there was a waiting list and high per foot rate.when the economy tanked many ran to anchor and alot of slips became available at a cheaper rate.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Don0190 said:


> I wonder if some people actually read the stuff they have posted? If you really are the type that feel the govt is out to get you and take away your "free" rights and stuff (all of which have to be paid for by someone) please be "free" to move along to somewhere else!
> 
> I doubt there are many water front business etc that are trying to get the boats out view. If there were they sure as hell wouldn't put in a mooring field! I bet most people like looking at boats out in the harbor. BUT I bet they don't like looking at falling apart piece of crap boats that are nothing but an eye sore and come with low lives. Some will get on their high horse and say that is elitist talk about the level of boats, tough! The only people in the harbor who what to look a a piece of crap boat all covered in bird crap is whoever lives on that boat.
> 
> ...


Wait, I dont pay taxes? And do you think just because I live in Fort Lauderdale, I have no cares about water quality in Boot Key? I *WANT* to keep visiting

So, I didnt pay 6.75% sales tax when I bought my boat (to the tune of over $8000)
I never pay ongoing 6+% in taxes for every good I buy in Florida...including when I rent some mooring ball in these fields and even when I pay some of my other fees (like registration)
I do NOT pay annual taxes to register my boat with Florida...even though its USCG registered ($250 a year, $25 for my dinghy, and $30 for my antique Mako 23' center console boat)
I dont pay 2.3% real estate taxes on my home ever year either...even after the downturn of multiple thousands a year.
I dont pay $20 a year for a saltwater license...plus more for shoreside fishing, plus more for loster tag plus more for general service fee of paying online for my "license" to fish.
I dont pay extra bed taxes for whenever I visit a hotel in the keys (lets soak those outsiders)
I dont pay $0.50 per gallon for diesel taxes or gas taxes every time I move around.
I dont pay 28-34% of my income in taxes to the Feds for the privelege of working

I'm not the vagrant. I *OWN* a waterfront home in Florida...for which I actually pay an additional tax/assessment for waterway cleanup (boats, debris, trash). SO now I have to pay for mooring too. Sounds like double taxation to me. Just because my state isn't profligate with spending like Maryland, California, or Illinois (YET...not YET)...doesn't mean I should just stand idly by as they TAKE AWAY WHAT I HAD in order to protect the interest of some waterfront owners.

HOw many nights of mooring do my taxes that I've already paid entitle me? After all, I'm trying to anchor in NAVIGABLE state or federal owned waters....not someones dock or marina.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

Don nice try. although reality is there's already laws on the books against the things you attempt to use to portray all those who choose to exorcise their state,federal and historical rights in navigation.
how is it you associated anchoring with trespassing and littering?
could it be an attempt to bolster your weak argument or condescension?


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

night owell -
you've stated it better than I could ever hope to.
very well put.
we're paying and then some.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

night0wl said:


> SO now I have to pay for mooring too. Sounds like double taxation to me...


Are you saying you aren't paying double tax on lots of things already and this is some new thing!

I never have felt that a harbor is really part of "navigation" except to boat lawyers. But it still goes back to the fact that if you want to anchor out you can. There isn't a requirement to use the mooring field is there?


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Don0190 said:


> Are you saying you aren't paying double tax on lots of things already and this is some new thing!
> 
> I never have felt that a harbor is really part of "navigation" except to boat lawyers. But it still goes back to the fact that if you want to anchor out you can. There isn't a requirement to use the mooring field is there?


The law says you cannot anchor where there is a viable mooring field. The problem is that in Marathon, Key Largo, and Key West, there are very limited all weather anchorages. Guess where they want to put mooring fields?

Its nearly impossible to anchor safely in Key West now.

What I'm saying is that these local municipalities are overstating the impact of these out of control vangrant cruisers, and are losing sight of the fact that their cities HAVE IN FACT collected fees and taxes from them. They just dont want to deal with waterfront land owners complaining about boats blocking their view....so they come up with this lame-brained mooring field idea and justify it by any means possible.

They dont want to do the hard work of enforcing existing laws, so they create new rules to make it harder for everyone that isn't local or "connected" to the locals from enjoying the "choice cuts" of waterfront. My bet is that the keys have gotten more of my tax dollars that i've sent to the state than I've been able to benefit from the tax dollars of their local yokels


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Like I said, too many disparate points of view to ever come to any consensus. Forty years ago there was plenty of space for everyone to anchor. It quite simply ain't like that anymore. There are too many boats, too much shoreside population. Kudos to Florida for trying to do something about places for average sailors, Floridians and visitors, to moor their boats. Unless the whiners can come up with better ideas, they should stow it.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

joethecobbler said:


> Don nice try. although reality is there's already laws on the books against the things you attempt to use to portray all those who choose to exorcise their state,federal and historical rights in navigation.
> how is it you associated anchoring with trespassing and littering?
> could it be an attempt to bolster your weak argument or condescension?


I believe I fully understand your position. It is:
- you have the right to be one of the few boats in a protected anchorage, if someone gets there too late for enough anchor room tough on them
- you have the right to bring your boat into some shore location, for free
- once ashore you have to right to cross anyone's property etc to get to where you want to go
- if you need water, it should be free also
- if you have trash well you should get to toss that into someones dumpster, for free of course
- if you want a shore shower, well free of course
- you should be able to pump your head overboard (don't even start with reasons why it should be OK because of something else)
- if someone doesn't want you to pump overboard well they should provide a service to collect it, free of course

this is all uke

No one is stopping your free navigation and you can still anchor out, just stay on the boat!


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

night0wl said:


> . They just dont want to deal with waterfront land owners complaining about boats blocking their view....so they come up with this lame-brained mooring field idea and justify it by any means possible.


While I'm sure that there are some rich people with mansions that don't want boats in their view, I doubt this is driving anything. And if that is the drive behind a mooring field how does it address getting boats out out of their view.

If I had money the last place I would want my mansion is in the harbor.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Don0190 said:


> While I'm sure that there are some rich people with mansions that don't want boats in their view, I doubt this is driving anything. And if that is the drive behind a mooring field how does it address getting boats out out of their view.
> 
> If I had money the last place I would want my mansion is in the harbor.


If development keeps happening, Marathon will be just like Sunset Lake in Miami Beach. Disagree with your stance that owners dont mind the boats there. Have you heard about the epic battle in Miami around this owner:

Cruiser's Net » Archive » Update on Sunset Lake Anchorage Battle ? Miami Beach


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

night0wl said:


> If development keeps happening, Marathon will be just like Sunset Lake in Miami Beach. Disagree with your stance that owners dont mind the boats there. Have you heard about the epic battle in Miami around this owner:
> 
> Cruiser's Net » Archive » Update on Sunset Lake Anchorage Battle ? Miami Beach


If development is the issue I doubt it wants a mooring field. What do they gain by stopping anchoring and replacing it with a bunch of moorings. Unless the development is a restaurant and moorings means more customers.

I didn't open that link, but if it is what I think it is his neighbors and the local police feel he is an *******. And 1 ******* doesn't prove anything.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

joethecobbler said:


> thanks for the mad info. as I mentioned still looking into my options


No, you didn't say you were looking into your options. You said (and I am quoting you), "I'm soon conceding to an onboard MSD1. thereby eliminating the need for pumpout!" THen you so kindly jabbed me again with a, "keep trying, I got the. rest of my life,I'm just sitting here swinging on the hook,for free."

Just like the other comments you have made, I am pointing out the fallacy of your thinking.



joethecobbler said:


> but I must point out of all the other points I made and falsehoods you attempted to herald. you chose this one!


I am quite sure I am not putting out any falsehoods. You are taking what I say, repeatedly, and twisting it to make some kind of point.

For example, I spoke about the need for water. You said you have a water maker. Most people do not. Even so, I asked you if you would use that in the old Mantanzas Pass or Boot Key before the balls were installed? That would certainly be against the manufacturers suggestions and I warrant that it would be dangerous.

In the places you would use that, there are no mooring balls. You can anchor freely. You would likely see me there too. But in areas of high congestion, a system to monitor and control this traffic is necessary for the good of all.



joethecobbler said:


> what is it that makes you so vitriol and bitter against basic freedom of choice. particularly when discussing such a trivial topic?


There you go again, putting words into my mouth. I spent many years, Joe, cruising these waters before the fields. I remember what it was like. It is yet another argument you keep avoiding. If you were here too (as I thought you were), you would remember what it was like.

I believe in the basic freedoms, Joe. I believe in the freedom to anchor. But I also understand that in some places, a very few places in Florida, you have to construct systems to account for the demographics. That is what we are talking about here. We are talking about FMB, Key West, and Marathon. St Pete is 'ok', not great. I have no opinion about Sarasota, Stuart, St Augustine as I have not used those facilities. Maybe they are necessary, maybe not. These fields have made the anchorages safer, cleaner, and given access to many more necessities than were there before. It seems your only argument is that you cannot anchor there or must pay for the balls. As I have pointed out, that is not the case. You can anchor outside them. And given the fact there are basic necessities that all boats must have, these fields have created an inexpensive avenue in which to gain access to them. The only other option is a marina, unless you expect a township to pick up all the costs.



joethecobbler said:


> is it you just cannot admit your view is not omnipotent?
> or is it something deeper?


Not sure I understand that. That sounds kinda weird, frankly.



joethecobbler said:


> anchoring is a time honored right of navigation.
> why would you,a self professed sailor whish to see that right diminished in any manner?


Once again, no one is taking that away from you. There are still many places to anchor (basically the entire state). But the fact of the matter is that Key West, Fort Myers Beach, and certainly Marathon simply cannot hold all the boats anchored, and struggle to hold them all on mooring balls (which allow more boats). And when you have that concentration of boats, then other concerns come in to play - trash, making water, getting water, dealing with waste, anchoring safely, etc.



joethecobbler said:


> answer =cruising is a passing fashion for you and many others and you will none to soon become board with it and find a new hobby, and none too soon IMO.
> unfortunately your good intentioned, albeit misguided approach, and the associated unintended consequences will linger.


Maybe I will get tired of it. Only been doing it since about 2000, on the fourth boat I have bought, and sailing since 95, so maybe it is just a passing fancy? SO if thirteen years (and 18 boating) is a passing fancy, when do I become upgraded to 'short term interested' in your book? How many decades does it take?

Let's see... my turn first to prove myself since you think I am on a passing fancy...

My youngest, first cruise...



Tortugas, 2002



My oldest, Fort Myers Beach, 2002



200 miles south of Pensacola, 2009



Coloring Easter Eggs and hiding them in old cannons (Tortugas) 2009



Thanksgiving, 2010



Partying with Howard Livingston, his wife, and the mayor of Key west and his wife...



Key West, 2011



St Pete, 2012



Marathon, winter 2013



Key West, a few weeks back...



Now, your turn Joe... Let's see your pics. Your turn. Prove to me this is not a passing fancy for you. I am showing you my resume, your turn. I need pics. No pics, it didn't happen.

If you need more pics from me, let me know. I have them. I can post you so many pics your computer won't be able to download them.

Brian


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

I did type conceding, I mentioned considering, I'm typing on a small cell phone.
a for it "happening " or. not sans photos, you don't get to define the parameters of the discussion.
or to put it more directly, I don't feel it necessary to convince you of much.
but since you eluded to it.
while you,by your own admition,were sailing in the90's,I was serving overseas defending your ability and right to do so freely and safely.
and now as a disabled decorated veteran I think,no,I know I've earned the right to speak my opinion and I damn sure don't need to prove anything to you,or anyone else.
So,I'm clearly not changing your opinion. and your not changing mine.
my opinion has been stated to the best of my ability .
don't bother thanking me for my service, it would only be hollow and insincere.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Cruisingdad said:


> Let's see...
> 
> Thanksgiving, 2010
> 
> ...


Jeez Brian--

To think we had an invitation to share that Thanksgiving with you all and we didn't make it! Whoa, what'a dumb move on our part!!!

Ah... Where will you all be this year, just in case?

(We'll happily take a mooring!!!)


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

What a load of [email protected]


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

indeed, thinking mooring fields are the cure all!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

joethecobbler said:


> don't bother thanking me for my service, it would only be hollow and insincere.












You could really use a basic reading comprehension refresher course, dude...

Brian has been asserting virtually NONE of the positions you're attributing to him...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

There ARE very crowded places, like GSP at Block I., Newport, and Atlantic Highlands that have made a point to retain places for boats to anchor. The problem in Florida may be that there are fewer places to anchor or place moorings for the number of boats. Most of the spots are either too shallow for sailboats or not protected. It's a situation where efficient use of the acreage is important. The swing circle of a mooring is far shorter than that required to anchor. Even taking the problems of poor behavior, pollution, and sunken boats out of the equation, it's a basic space issue.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

smurphny said:


> ........... it's a basic space issue.


Vero Beach, FL does VERY nicely with very limited acreage by having multiple boats, up to 3 per mooring, in quite 'tight' quarters ... AND Vero Beach remains a favorite transient destination for many because it provides thoughtful services with their mooring fees. Its also interesting that other boaters with which Ive shared a mooring over the years have become long term friends.

No one can deny that the Vero mooring field provides a steady source of income for the local economy ... its one of the very few places in S. Florida that seems to 'want' transient boaters ... and there are no 'derelict boats' to spoil things.

Question - does anyone know if Miami still enforces the ~48 hour "get out of town" rule when anchoring and no matter the adverse weather conditions 'outside'? Ive been bypassing Miami for years.


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## GrummanPilot (Oct 25, 2011)

Cruisingdad said:


> I can now cruise the entire keys or west coast of Florida and I have a place where I can stop and utilize these services for a *very small amount of money - especially compared to the asinine cost of marinas*. I can anchor out as long as I want between these places, always knowing that a reasonably priced (and cruiser friendly) field is within a day's sail. I love it.
> 
> Brian


You're actually identifying my two objections to the mooring field.

#1 - it's being used to ban anchoring in a large part of the area, and

#2 - A mooring actually costs more than a slip at many of the smaller marinas.

Really, I have nothing against mooring fields and would like to see more of them. I just object to what Sarasota is doing.


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## GrummanPilot (Oct 25, 2011)

Don0190 said:


> I don't understand the land owners view argument. Why would a condo//homeowner want to look at at say 100 boats on moorings verse say 20 boats on anchor?
> 
> I would think they would prefer to have less boats not more.


It's homeowners with a view of a quiet, scenic, secluded cove who don't like a boater enjoying their "private" water front.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

RichH said:


> Vero Beach, FL does VERY nicely with very limited acreage by having multiple boats, up to 3 per mooring, in quite 'tight' quarters ... AND Vero Beach remains a favorite transient destination for many because it provides thoughtful services with their mooring fees. Its also interesting that other boaters with which Ive shared a mooring over the years have become long term friends.
> 
> No one can deny that the Vero mooring field provides a steady source of income for the local economy ... its one of the very few places in S. Florida that seems to 'want' transient boaters ... and there are no 'derelict boats' to spoil things.
> 
> Question - does anyone know if Miami still enforces the ~48 hour "get out of town" rule when anchoring and no matter the adverse weather conditions 'outside'? Ive been bypassing Miami for years.


Up at Martha's Vineyard, it's the same in Menemsha Harbor, three on a mooring. There are only three? I feel a little uncomfortable being tied up to other boats and it's a PITA when someone leaves, but the town really makes the most use of their tiny harbor. There is no place to anchor there unless you have a good weather window and anchor outside in The Bight. They stopped letting those brave enough to navigate up to Menemsha Pond anchor up in there. Used to be one of my favorite places. The reason that has been given is because of environmental concerns but it was likely because all the mega-rich people who have built homes there did not want any company.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I doubt anyone here who is familiar with the phrase "Condo Commando" has any doubts what this is all about.

A good friend of mine manages several condos in Miami. Her stories are legend. You would be surprised what will draw their ire, and to what great lengths they will go to, to relieve that ire.

Recreational boats, especially anchored ones that mess up their view, of the water they are pretty sure they own, in spirit if not in actuality, have drawn their ire is some places.


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## GrummanPilot (Oct 25, 2011)

Group9 said:


> I doubt anyone here who is familiar with the phrase "Condo Commando" has any doubts what this is all about.
> 
> A good friend of mine manages several condos in Miami. Her stories are legend. You would be surprised what will draw their ire, and to what great lengths they will go to, to relieve that ire.
> 
> Recreational boats, especially anchored ones that mess up their view, of the water they are pretty sure they own, in spirit if not in actuality, have drawn their ire is some places.


Here's a quote from the local paper announcing the opening of the Sarasota mooring field:

"The downtown mooring area has been a place to anchor boats for more than a century. For decades, it was free and open to use by anyone. At the turn of the current century, bayfront condominium owners became distressed at what they saw outside their windows every morning, and they began an effort to get rid of the boats."


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

GrummanPilot said:


> Here's a quote from the local paper announcing the opening of the Sarasota mooring field:
> 
> "The downtown mooring area has been a place to anchor boats for more than a century. For decades, it was free and open to use by anyone. At the turn of the current century, bayfront condominium owners became distressed at what they saw outside their windows every morning, and they began an effort to get rid of the boats."


Frankly, considering what occupied the Bay Front Park "anchorage", I don't think there were many residents of the community, water front or otherwise, save the denizens of many of the derelicts that were permanently moored there that didn't agree. The "Park" was someplace that most wouldn't go after dark, it was filled with trash and discarded liquor bottles, the water's edge/beach was often lined with garbage and human/animal waste with the accompanying stench, and after virtually every storm there were wrecks driven on the beach or masts protruding from the water at odd angles all surrounded by debris fields and the sheen of POL that the City had to recover and drag to the land fill. I, for one, much prefer the liberty of anchoring but, at least in Sarasota, I must concede that a managed mooring field is/will be an improvement, or could be if the City could find competent administrators to effectuate its plan (which thus far it largely has not). And, there are still plenty of places to anchor, albeit less convenient than Bay Front Park might be, depending upon what one is looking for.

FWIW...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

svHyLyte said:


> Jeez Brian--
> 
> To think we had an invitation to share that Thanksgiving with you all and we didn't make it! Whoa, what'a dumb move on our part!!!
> 
> ...


Thanksgiving in the Keys this year, Scott. Come on down. Would love to have ya!

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

joethecobbler said:


> I did type conceding, I mentioned considering, I'm typing on a small cell phone.
> a for it "happening " or. not sans photos, you don't get to define the parameters of the discussion.
> or to put it more directly, I don't feel it necessary to convince you of much.
> but since you eluded to it.
> ...


Thank you for your service. But I fail to understand what that has to do with a mooring ball???

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

GrummanPilot said:


> You're actually identifying my two objections to the mooring field.
> 
> #1 - it's being used to ban anchoring in a large part of the area, and
> 
> ...


As someone who has sailed that coast for over a decade, please tell me what marina is less than $300/month? I can't find one less than 700-800... often in off season. In Key West, my boat would run about $1700/month!!

I have no problem with anchoring out or mooring. You can do both in FMB, Key West, and Marathon. I do not see the mooring fields as a way to ban anchoring. I see it as a way to mitigate the volume of boats in a safe, secure, and environmentally beneficial fashion.

I cannot speak about the Sarasota field. I have never had any interest in spending time there (prefer Cabbage Key or Longboat). So perhaps that is what they were doing in Sarasota? I simply do not know. But in the others areas, there was a real issue with fitting the boats, people illegally dumping, trash, etc, etc, etc. Plus, there simply was not enough room for all the boats to anchor and mooring fields hold more boats.

Brian


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Here I am a couple of years from mooring next to CruisingDad, and frankly I'm happy to have an opportunity to hook a ball and have the services associated with it - and the choice to wander off and find my own chunk of mud to stick some galvanized metal in.

I live on the water - on a river in the Chesapeake - and look at about 20 mooring balls with 10-15 boats on them depending on time of year. Most never move, so do. Here you can put a ball down anywhere that doesn't restrict navigation, no other real rules. LEO's don't even check for current registration. 
The only real limit is there is no public access (dinghy launch points). 

I'll admit I'm not looking forward to the bump in the budget required to pay for a mooring, but I do see it as part of an effort to both preserve the tax base (water front) and appease the tax payers (mostly owners, also tourist including boaters). 
Doing that requires grease, grease comes in dollar bills.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> You could really use a basic reading comprehension refresher course, dude...
> 
> Brian has been asserting virtually NONE of the positions you're attributing to him...


Thanks Jon... I was beginning to think it was just me!

Brian


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## GrummanPilot (Oct 25, 2011)

Cruisingdad said:


> As someone who has sailed that coast for over a decade, please tell me what marina is less than $300/month? I can't find one less than 700-800... often in off season. In Key West, my boat would run about $1700/month!!
> Brian


That will depend on the size of your boat. And if you only look at the big marinas that are right in town, then yes, it can be expensive.

But at smaller marinas the rate I usually see is $10/ft./month.

FYI - I'm a trailer sailer. I only rent slips for a night or two every now and then. And like I said earlier, I would like to see more mooring fields if they would actually be managed and priced reasonably. But I do not like what Sarasota is doing.


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## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

Being a Florida liveaboard and soon to be a full time cruiser, I too have been up and down the Florida coast. First we need to address the real reason why this Mooring Field Mooring balls provision came up. It all had to do with the Marcos Island Community vs boaters anchoring in the back yard of the McMansions. The McMansions lost this lawsuit in the State Supreme Court and other lawsuits brought on by other municipalities trying to keep boats from anchoring in the rich folks backyard. The vagrant issue was never really raised in these lawsuits but took on as a side matter because the city's didn't want to enforce current laws due to money and the complicated maritime laws to confiscate derelict boats. Where I live Marine Stadium bay one can find many abandon boats where the city doesn't do anything. 
So now we have a few mooring fields around the state in crowded anchorages as a test program. It is a way to regulate these areas, the city gets a revenue stream and most vagrant boats move away or the city forces them to move. What was once free in these areas might not be able to anchor for free anymore. This is how I see it. 
Boaters here on SN are responsible boaters. We are educated and informed. We are NOT the majority of boaters out there. There are many threads here and on other social media attesting to the how reckless these boaters are. So how does one control the majority of folks out there. Hence the Mooring Field Test case in Florida. 
I have used Marathon, St Augustine and Key West mooring field. Key West was put in not by the State but by a University ( I forgot which one). When we were there last Jan, there were a lot of balls broke. The city didn't' know when they were going to get them fixed because of the lease agreement. While it was a miss for us here, Marathon was a huge hit. 
We can still anchor in 99% of the places here in Florida. Does it take away our free rights to anchor anywhere. Not really. We can still anchor where we choose in the test fields? Just not in the supremo places. So the arguing going on in this thread here in most cases doesn't really address the issue at hand; does the Mooring Field Test areas work for the average boater out there in these high traffic boating areas?
Where this test may lead is what I might have a problem with. The other 99% of the anchorages out in the Florida coastline. There are other areas like Key Biscayne, Key Largo for example, that are looking at putting in these fields that really have no place or reason for except a revenue stream. This is what I have objections to.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I've already stipulated I'm a soon to be cruiser, so my experience is only with the Annapolis area. 
I like the balls there - I know I'm hooked to a solid, managed, mooring. At 35 a night it's expensive though and I'm guessing 50% of the revenue generated is going to something other than maintaining that ball and the facilities that come with it - like the harbor masters with boats that circle endlessly to pounce on boats and collect said fees (while doing nothing about the 6kt violators and party boats). 

To me, it beats anchoring in Back or Spa creeks and hoping I don't do the hull knock at 2am. So far.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Melrna said:


> Being a Florida liveaboard and soon to be a full time cruiser, I too have been up and down the Florida coast. First we need to address the real reason why this Mooring Field Mooring balls provision came up. It all had to do with the Marcos Island Community vs boaters anchoring in the back yard of the McMansions. The McMansions lost this lawsuit in the State Supreme Court and other lawsuits brought on by other municipalities trying to keep boats from anchoring in the rich folks backyard. The vagrant issue was never really raised in these lawsuits but took on as a side matter because the city's didn't want to enforce current laws due to money and the complicated maritime laws to confiscate derelict boats. Where I live Marine Stadium bay one can find many abandon boats where the city doesn't do anything.
> So now we have a few mooring fields around the state in crowded anchorages as a test program. It is a way to regulate these areas, the city gets a revenue stream and most vagrant boats move away or the city forces them to move. What was once free in these areas might not be able to anchor for free anymore. This is how I see it.
> Boaters here on SN are responsible boaters. We are educated and informed. We are NOT the majority of boaters out there. There are many threads here and on other social media attesting to the how reckless these boaters are. So how does one control the majority of folks out there. Hence the Mooring Field Test case in Florida.
> I have used Marathon, St Augustine and Key West mooring field. Key West was put in not by the State but by a University ( I forgot which one). When we were there last Jan, there were a lot of balls broke. The city didn't' know when they were going to get them fixed because of the lease agreement. While it was a miss for us here, Marathon was a huge hit.
> ...


I agree with a lot of what you say, not 100% though. I would love to see the numbers on Key West or Boot Key. Between the pumpout boats, salaries, maintenance (note - Marathon does maintenance their balls... they were diving them and working on them several weeks ago), I would be surprised if they are making much if any money. I really doubt it has made up for the cost of installing them (most of which the state picked up). I suspect the money is more from having more boaters there, in a safer environment (both crime and ecological), which in turn benefits the local economy. Boaters spend money, and some of them spend a LOT of it. We are either tourists or residents, either of which benefits the local township.

The reality is that Marathon is a shinning example of how to run a mooring field. Kudos to them... and I said so in the FWC survey. I sure hope it comes back to them too. Key West... ehh. So-so. The problem with Key West (which I also put in the survey) is the field is so far away and it is wide open to northers. I cannot imagine a night on the ball there in a strong northern... and I sure wouldn't want to do a TS or Hurricane on one of them! The only way to correct this would be expensive, but hey, it is Key West and I think it is worth it. Compared to the minimal dockage (and at ridiculous rates), maybe something like that would make sense? I don't know. When I go to Key West, I prefer to just eat the cost of staying at the Bight right off of Duval... then getting out of there after a week!!! I love Key West but it simply is not very kid friendly.

St Pete is a bit of a different story. It always seemed a bit more of a destination for temporary (like a day or two) boaters. I am not sure it is quite as necessary. I wonder if the same could be said of Sarasota and that is what has Gruman Pilot so frustrated? I have not stayed in that field, so I cannot say for sure. But St Pete has done a remarkable job in vastly increasing their clientele downtown (it is very new and nice), and I can see why they would not want tourists or residents walking through the park and staring at some bozo showering in his cockpit. But... as has been said, anchoring is a long held right for boaters. The probloem with the St Pete area is that there simply is not a lot of places to anchor at all... mooring field or not. I don't have a great answer for St Pete. However, I will say that the city's focus on making it vibrant and attractive has been a remarkable success and that is why we rank it as one of our favorite places. So go figure (smile).

Brian


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

RichH said:


> Question - does anyone know if Miami still enforces the ~48 hour "get out of town" rule when anchoring and no matter the adverse weather conditions 'outside'? Ive been bypassing Miami for years.


As of the winter of 2012, no problems...

The Miami Beach anchorage S of Venetian Causeway is one of my favorite anchorages in S Florida, and it's a terrific spot to stage a departure for the Bahamas, or simply hang out for awhile... Very convenient to great shopping, the Publix market near the canal is one of the nicest I've found anywhere. Easy access to the Lincoln Road pedestrian mall, great array of restaurants, nice walk out to the beach, that anchorage is probably more centrally located to many of the attractions of Miami Beach than the majority of hotels in MB... And, the free municipal wifi that Miami Beach offers is a nice little add-on, as well 

The anchorage close into shore where most folks go can be a challenge, there's a lot of weird current action in there, and of course you can be subject to a lot of wakes from passing traffic. I always distance myself from the fleet, and anchor out off Monument Island, perhaps except on the weekends, or if the weather threatens...

The setting can be magnificent, however, especially after dark when the Miami skyline lights up... Surrounded by the multi-million dollar homes of the Rich and Famous, it's a pretty amazing spot, and I've yet to get tired of it...










If you do anchor out there, however, you want to make sure you're well lit up at night, it's not a spot where those penis boat drivers might be looking for an anchored boat... And, from Friday afternoon thru late Sunday night, the 'action' in the vicinity of Monument Island can get pretty crazy, and not for anyone that can't handle the Latin beat cranked up to 11... 










But, to answer your original question, no hassle whatsoever from the police, in my experience - boats are anchored there for weeks at a time now, or longer... There's one steel-hulled derelict without a mast that's been there for years, just the sort of eyesore that reminds us to enjoy this sort of anchorage while we can, just a matter of time before the pendulum will start to swing back again...

The Sunset Lake anchorage is another beautiful spot, I went in there about 5 years ago to ride out a massive norther that was coming through... Snug as a bug in there, and once again, the surroundings most impressive, I felt like I was camped out in front of some movie star's house in Beverly Hills...










The telephoto effect makes it appear I was closer to this homeowner's living room than I actually was, but I still wasn't entirely comfortable being there, and left shortly after the weather passed... In places like this - Lake Sylvia in Lauderdale is another example - I'm often amazed at how inconsiderate some cruisers can be, their lack of awareness of the surroundings, and that they're in the midst of someone else's neighborhood... When the owner of that house above came out to uncover his boat one morning, I took my dinghy over to say Hello, compliment him on the beauty of his home, and to express my gratitude for the privilege of being able to anchor in the midst of such surroundings... We had a nice conversation, he complimented me on my boat as well... Every little bit helps, I figure - such a small gesture might go some distance to offset his annoyance at having to listen to somebody else's Honda generator running on deck for hours on end...

As linked to earlier, however, there have since been some real problems a Sunset Lake, particularly with one homeowner that appears to be flat-out nuts... He's taken it upon himself to 'seed' much of the anchorage with a bunch of small boats to keep cruisers out, though I'm not sure nis view of the water has necessarily been improved by much... (this pic is from the earlier link on Claiborne Young's site)


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Good post Jon.

Brian


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"I like the balls there - I know I'm hooked to a solid, managed, mooring. "
Hm. You have more faith in a stranger's maintenance habits than in your own anchor? I like moorings, in general, but unless they've been down and serviced long enough to get a reputation, how solid they are is still a rash assumption.

I LIKE the way the crazy put those little boats out. Absolutely ingenious. Of course, I'd still like to see him horsewhipped and ridden out of town on a rail, but wouldn't it make a fascinating exercise to find a way to hold each of those boats against him. OTOH, if he'd used pink lawn flamingos, or something at least a _little _bit more aesthetic...


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## mountaintrout (May 20, 2012)

dave c said:


> Check out the survey on the Fwc web page about the pilot program. I think you have sometime in October to do it. One of the questions is did it promote the use of mooring fields, gee closing off some former anchoring areas like the area called the seaplane anchorage in Key West, umm I don't know. I stayed in the Key West mooring field in 2012 and would probably again but there are better protected anchorages that are now closed off and the city requires one months deposit to moor and all I had was debit so 600 to start for a month. After I left these crooks stalled for over a week to put my deposit back. As far as protecting the marine environment, what a joke. Look at Stuart, all the water being dumped with runoff from agriculture and golf courses has destroyed so much seagrass and ruined water quality and they are asking this. I hope the bubble they live in does not pop or they will realize the Fwc won't be around much longer, why will we need them if the environment is dead. And who will they blame once all the anchored boats are gone and the waterways are dead zones anyways!


How much was the Key West mooring field?

Thanks


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

mountaintrout said:


> How much was the Key West mooring field?
> 
> Thanks


Looks like $18 a day now

City of Key West, Florida / Mooring Field

Or, monthly rate of $320 a month. Almost $4000 a year for facilities you've already paid for (taxes).


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