# Windward or Leeward at start



## Neilw (8 mo ago)

New to racing (but not sailing) here.

I club race a one design boat, but we are not all prepared equally. Some are stock cruising/club boats and others prepped for racing. Even with the differences however the boats are not to far apart in speed and ability.

I understand ideally we want to be the windward boat (and/or on the favored side), going fast at the start, with an acceleration lane and on the right wind shift.... we would all like that.

If we let the race prepared boats get ahead at the start it is almost impossible to catch them, so our best way to win is to be better at the start by forcing a mistake, or preventing them from using their speed advantage.

So my question is in slower boat what is the best place to start a race with slightly more competitive boat?

If we start to windward of a "race" boat we stand a chance of getting out pointed and slowed right down. At that point they would just fall off a little and be gone. Do people think we would be able to affect the leeward boats air enough to make this position tenable?

If we start to leeward, but in front, we might be able to force them to start early, or be able to fall off a little to gain speed, but we stand the chance of getting rolled. Is there any significant advantage to being the leeward and ahead boat at the start?

Thoughts on starting with slightly faster boats?

An NO I don't "just want to let them go" they are not THAT much faster, and where is the fun in that! 
And NO club boats will not be turned into race boats they have to serve a variety of uses.

Thanks


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

If I'm racing, I'm racing to win and I will use the rules to my advantage. That said, I've never "club" raced against friends.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

The general rules for a good start:
1. if there is a favored end, start at the favored end
2. if the wind is oscillating, sail on the lifted tack
3. Always start with clear air

The guys with the apparently fast boats are the guys who know these rules... the boats may not be any faster...


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## Neilw (8 mo ago)

sailingfool said:


> The general rules for a good start:
> 1. if there is a favored end, start at the favored end
> 2. if the wind is oscillating, sail on the lifted tack
> 3. Always start with clear air
> ...


We know they are faster. Sailed better in some cases, better race prepared boats in others.

Better/newer sails compared to 5+ year old club boats, better straight line speed, lighter boats compared to loads loaded for cruising, cleaner bottoms - some are dry sailed others spend the summer in the water. Are they better sailors, some yes for sure. 

The question was how best to start with them.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

It sounds like you're putting way too much emphasis on the start. If you fight for the ideal start, all too often the winner of that fight is rewarded, and the losers suffer for most of the first leg. I'd much rather hit the line on time at full speed with clear air a little farther to leeward.

It's generally unrealistic to expect to beat a better prepared, faster boat. If you have the skills, your best strategy in most races is to make smarter course and tacking choices. By doing so, you'll sail a shorter distance around the course than the competition. A slightly slower boat sailing a shorter course can beat a slightly faster boat sailing a longer distance. That necessarily requires you to search for wind shifts, lifts and headers, and sometimes you'll have to "roll the dice" on a tacking decision. With a slower boat, you can't join the "parade" around the marks. If they're faster than you and you sail the same course as them, they'll beat you. You have to pick your own course around the marks, keep your air clear, and keep your sails in better trim a higher percentage of the time. In most fleets, you won't win often with that strategy, but, if you can finish second or third among faster boats, that's an accomplishment. 

But IMO, in light air, a slightly slower boat can be just as competitive as a slightly faster boat. A boat with a slightly rough or dirty bottom is only very slightly disadvantaged in light air. Because the boat is moving so slowly in light air, any roughness on the bottom doesn't create much turbulence, and turbulence causes drag. Moreover, many racers are not very skilled at racing in light air. If you can keep your boat moving at better speed than your competitors, you'll win. Knowing how to sail in light air is way more important than raw boat speed. Nobody goes fast in light air. You only have to go a little faster.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Neilw said:


> We know they are faster. Sailed better in some cases, better race prepared boats in others.
> 
> Better/newer sails compared to 5+ year old club boats, better straight line speed, lighter boats compared to loads loaded for cruising, cleaner bottoms - some are dry sailed others spend the summer in the water. Are they better sailors, some yes for sure.
> 
> The question was how best to start with them.


My post #3 is the answer...how good racers make good starts...


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## Neilw (8 mo ago)

Sailormon6 said:


> It sounds like you're putting way too much emphasis on the start. If you fight for the ideal start, all too often the winner of that fight is rewarded, and the losers suffer for most of the first leg. I'd much rather hit the line on time at full speed with clear air a little farther to leeward.
> 
> It's generally unrealistic to expect to beat a better prepared, faster boat. If you have the skills, your best strategy in most races is to make smarter course and tacking choices. By doing so, you'll sail a shorter distance around the course than the competition. A slightly slower boat sailing a shorter course can beat a slightly faster boat sailing a longer distance. That necessarily requires you to search for wind shifts, lifts and headers, and sometimes you'll have to "roll the dice" on a tacking decision. With a slower boat, you can't join the "parade" around the marks. If they're faster than you and you sail the same course as them, they'll beat you. You have to pick your own course around the marks, keep your air clear, and keep your sails in better trim a higher percentage of the time. In most fleets, you won't win often with that strategy, but, if you can finish second or third among faster boats, that's an accomplishment.
> 
> But IMO, in light air, a slightly slower boat can be just as competitive as a slightly faster boat. A boat with a slightly rough or dirty bottom is only very slightly disadvantaged in light air. Because the boat is moving so slowly in light air, any roughness on the bottom doesn't create much turbulence, and turbulence causes drag. Moreover, many racers are not very skilled at racing in light air. If you can keep your boat moving at better speed than your competitors, you'll win. Knowing how to sail in light air is way more important than raw boat speed. Nobody goes fast in light air. You only have to go a little faster.


Great points. 

You are very correct regarding the light air - it seems the racing is much closer when the wind is light. 

It certainly makes sense that if the boat sails a shorter coarse, and on the favored tack more often it should do better.

You are also correct there is no point if following along behind a faster boat you will just get further behind. 

It seems there are only two options - break with the faster boats and try to sail a better coarse, or try and force a penalty and get some distance in the bank.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

A good start is a good start. Doesn't matter if you are in one of the slower boats or one of the faster ones.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I may be a little out of the mainstream on this, but I have sailed the 'slower boat' for much of my life. In a competitive one design fleet, there is tendency for only one or two boats to 'win the start'. The rest of the boats are crowded together at the favored end, sitting in disturbed or even dead air due to a mix of snow fence effect and being to leeward of the pack. If this is not a densely packed starting line, I will try to nail a start just far enough below the pack that I have totally clear air. Since eve the boat that wins the start has to deal with the snow fence, often I can make up for the being down from the favored corner by having more speed off the line and maybe even being able to point higher than the pack. After that, I look for a header and a clear lane to get to the favored side of the course (if I am not already heading for it, 

Also, a rough bottom hurts most at the bottom and top of the wind range. At the bottom of the wind range the greater skin friction acts as multiplier for the wetted surface of the boat. At the upper end of the range, it makes it harder for a boat to accelerate in a gust and so it heels more and has more weather helm (neither are good for performance) and in planing boats, a smooth bottom will plane more of the time.

Jeff


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

Obviously, a rough bottom is detrimental at any speed, but in light air, at very slow speeds, the detriment is less pronounced, and, more importantly, if you develop good light air skills, the gains you'll make from those skills will far outweigh the detriment from a rough bottom. 

I have always studied light air techniques because having knowledge and skills that most people don't have always gives you a competitive advantage. By reading Jeff_H's discussions on light air sailing, I figured out the last aspects of light air techniques that I had been missing. 

Like Jeff, I've done a lot of racing on friends' boats that weren't race prepped, and I always considered light air races our best opportunities.

When you start out with a disadvantage, the question is, "What can you do to minimize and overcome that disadvantage?" In one light air race years ago, I had too many people on board, so I used their weight to heel the boat in ways to reduce drag, and we won the race. When you think you have a disadvantage, either think of a way to turn it to your advantage, or find a way around it.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

To Jeff's point someone here had a signature line that I loved - "If a dirty bottom slows you down, imagine what it does to your boat."
I have mostly sailed mixed fleet, and almost always short handed. While we had VERY closely rated boats at my former club (not at my present club in my fleet, but that is another story), I managed to win my share of races. I am 100% the WORST STARTER EVER (always getting better though). 

Your question to focus on your start is admirable, and yes if you can nail the favored end with a fast slot, to windward, you will likely have the gas to push the faster boats (even if only slightly faster) into your dirty air. I assume that is what you reference. If you know they have you on point and speed you are going to lose that slot and the speed and be pushed out EVERY time. Sail a lower slot to the start, or consider starting at the pin end (there are whole books dedicated to pin end, and middle pack starts).

Personally if as you say you are slower/older equipment/less crewed I think your tactics should be in the field. My own personal tactics involve taking the odd track to the next mark, usually avoiding the "favored" predictable path to it. I also sail to tack less (I sail short handed so my tacks are my biggest waster of speed which costs me is distance to the next mark). I pick the odd course to the mark with less tacks, but it usually affords me cleaner air, and gets me to the mark with or ahead of the pack. So I'd strongly suggest you consider what I call the "mirror course" to the next mark. This method has huge risks and huge rewards right? If light air, you can either find the holes faster or find the winds faster for the truly random puffs.

This only works for so long and eventually you get a reputation for "finding the faster way there," then you get what I call "fans" that now follow your course from the start. Just keep in mind they are followers, so they don't really control the speed of your alternate way to that next mark.

My method is only a suggestion that you have alternatives other than just winning the start. It's also not meant as a one size fits all. Mixed fleets provide advantages, and challenges that translate better with certain model boats.

Might help us to know what you sail versus what they sail.


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## Neilw (8 mo ago)

JimsCAL said:


> A good start is a good start. Doesn't matter if you are in one of the slower boats or one of the faster ones.


Very true.

That was may initial question. In a slower boat that doesn't point as well is the GOOD place to start - to windward of the faster boats and chance getting luffed up and out pointed, or below and hopefully ahead where we can possibly have some control of the start, and where we have an acceleration lane to fall of into - but where we have the possibly get rolled.

I understand the basics of starting.. clean air, going fast, favored end. My question is in dealing with some of the faster boats who also want to be in that same position and typically if left on their own with clean air will be gone.

Some good points were raised in later comments about starting away from the other boats and being slower taking a chance by sailing a different coarse - what's to loose if you know you are slow..


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## Neilw (8 mo ago)

Jeff_H said:


> I may be a little out of the mainstream on this, but I have sailed the 'slower boat' for much of my life. In a competitive one design fleet, there is tendency for only one or two boats to 'win the start'. The rest of the boats are crowded together at the favored end, sitting in disturbed or even dead air due to a mix of snow fence effect and being to leeward of the pack. If this is not a densely packed starting line, I will try to nail a start just far enough below the pack that I have totally clear air. Since eve the boat that wins the start has to deal with the snow fence, often I can make up for the being down from the favored corner by having more speed off the line and maybe even being able to point higher than the pack. After that, I look for a header and a clear lane to get to the favored side of the course (if I am not already heading for it,
> 
> Also, a rough bottom hurts most at the bottom and top of the wind range. At the bottom of the wind range the greater skin friction acts as multiplier for the wetted surface of the boat. At the upper end of the range, it makes it harder for a boat to accelerate in a gust and so it heels more and has more weather helm (neither are good for performance) and in planing boats, a smooth bottom will plane more of the time.
> 
> Jeff


We have a relatively small fleet of boats, but the comment of everyone ending up at the favored end in each others bad wind is certainly true.

I tend to favor the idea of a down line start away from the pack, and how the effect of the boats bunched together somewhat offsets our slower speed and pointing ability.


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## Neilw (8 mo ago)

SHNOOL said:


> To Jeff's point someone here had a signature line that I loved - "If a dirty bottom slows you down, imagine what it does to your boat."
> I have mostly sailed mixed fleet, and almost always short handed. While we had VERY closely rated boats at my former club (not at my present club in my fleet, but that is another story), I managed to win my share of races. I am 100% the WORST STARTER EVER (always getting better though).
> 
> Your question to focus on your start is admirable, *and yes if you can nail the favored end with a fast slot, to windward, you will likely have the gas to push the faster boats (even if only slightly faster) into your dirty air. *I assume that is what you reference. *If you know they have you on point and speed you are going to lose that slot and the speed and be pushed out EVERY time. Sail a lower slot to the start, or consider starting at the pin end* (there are whole books dedicated to pin end, and middle pack starts).
> ...


Thanks for the comments on the original question, regarding windward or leeward start against a faster boat. While I got a lot of good advice, not to much of it addressed the original question. 

Our season is relatively short that we don't get the number of races, or experience, to try a huge number of different starts (and conditions are always different) so I was hoping to use some of the experience of other more seasoned racers to give me a comments on things they had found to work that we could try.

We also sail either short handed, or take beginner sailors, so your comments regarding reducing the number of tack is very relevant. While its good training its tends to be slow.

We sail a one design fleet of older Catalina 22s - not exactly a race boat, but fun as a one design fleet of old guys and beginners.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Catalina 22s are tough, and make getting and being competitive even tougher. The boats were never meant to be OD raced, so don't strictly follow OD like rules. Some examples of what I mean, there might be as much as 400lb difference in weight of various models. They made fin, swing, shoal, and wing keel designs, its obvious but the fin keel model will outsail the others if everything else were equal (it never is).

Now, I get it, they are cheap, easy to repair, and easy to build a OD fleet of them!

In light air, the Cat 22 will do nearly as well with bagged out sails as one with modern string sails (more likely radial). The Cat 22 is beyond sensitive to weight shifting. An owner of a well sailed Cat 22 at my former club stated categorically that the positioning of the swing keel upwind was "crucial" depending on heel, and balancing the helm was a fools errand. Keep in mind its basically a metal 2" wide side slab of steel, so anything you can do to reduce its drag will help (balance that with the fact the boat has a lot of freeboard for a 22 footer so side slipping is real).

What I'd like to impart more than anything though is drag is your biggest enemy on that boat. If you can fair the hull, fair the leading edges of the keel/rudder, it'd go a long way to make you faster. Weight is also a huge factor. You may be a lot heavier than other boats in your fleet before you even add your gear. Don't strip the boat or anything but understand exactly where you come in on the average weight of the boat, and balance accordingly. It might be something stupid like removing the 15HP monster remote controlled outboard from your transom (don't laugh someone touted doing that to a Cat 22 online). You know stick with what it was designed for, 3-4hp outboard, also nobody said you had to carry the 6 gallons of fuel, the 4hp one that has both onboard tank and remote tank capabilities is perfect!

I would suggest you partner up and spend a lot of time sailing the boat in all conditions against another well sailed boat (practice). Use SOG and SOW to measure performance tweaks and try different positions of seating, gear, and rigging, see what works and in what conditions. You should be able to both build better tactics that way. Keep a log of settings. You will always sail better/faster if you keep your adjustments down to 3 slots, light, medium, heavy air settings. Having more options is great, but those 3 settings for each different tweak will be easier to sort though, and once you have a book of them, you'll know how to setup the boat for a particular day, (I used to keep a log of turns on a turnbuckle tighter, and looser from the standard rig setting - don't laugh it matters).

If I recall correctly, the oldest Cat 22s were the ones that were generally lighter, especially if you factor in the new Cat 22 "sport" which looks like a fatter squatter Capri 22.

Finally the Catalina 22 is one of the largest brand sailing forums. You should be able to get tons of racing tweaks for it.


https://www.catalina22.org/


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

Neilw said:


> That was may initial question. In a slower boat that doesn't point as well is the GOOD place to start - to windward of the faster boats and chance getting luffed up and out pointed, or below and hopefully ahead where we can possibly have some control of the start, and where we have an acceleration lane to fall of into - but where we have the possibly get rolled.
> 
> I understand the basics of starting.. clean air, going fast, favored end. My question is in dealing with some of the faster boats who also want to be in that same position and typically if left on their own with clean air will be gone.


If you start mid-line, on time and at full speed, you'll be racing toward the windward mark in clear air while the others are fighting for the perfect start. Some will have to pinch to avoid falling down onto leeward boats, and some will have gone over early and have to gybe back over the starting line. The faster boats will take awhile to catch up to you and get on your air. By that time, the boats will have strung out, and, when you need to clear your air, you'll be able to cross the transoms of the faster boats without much interference. Even though we lose a little time each time we tack, you should never hesitate to tack to clear your air. As long as you are sailing in disturbed air, you are losing both speed and pointing ability. The longer that happens, the more you lose. Clearing your air gets your speed and pointing back. If you don't have clear air, you don't even have a fighting chance.

If you're losing too much time in tacking, work on improving your tacks. Make them more efficient, with fewer wasted or unnecessary motions. Improve your helmsmanship so that you don't turn past closehauled, which requires your crew to grind the winch to bring the boat up to closehauled. 

Find out where you're losing time and focus on improving your skills in those areas.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

So my question is in slower boat what is the best place to start a race with slightly more competitive boat?

To windward and ahead of them with more boat speed. if you are sailing one design boats like a Cat 22 the bottom and the sails are everything when it comes to racing. winning by waiting for a mistake is a lucky win and not the way you want to win. in one design if your equipment is not equal then you will be racing for fun. only when you race with very good equipment you will have a chance to be competitive. If you have ever sailed with very good sails that are in good tune you will know why a set of 5+ years old sails is not going to give you even half a chance to win no matter how good you start.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

Theoretically the ideal start is usually on time, nearest the committee boat and at full speed, but that isn't the reality. Only one boat can get that start. Others will have to start to leeward of it in it's wind shadow, or will have to fall behind it. That's why it's a bad gamble to fight for that perfect start. A boat that starts a little farther to leeward, on time, at speed and in clear air will probably have, IMO, the second best start. If I can get the second best start in most races, I'm happy. Fighting for the ideal start is very high risk. The alternative is low risk.


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## jeremiahblatz (Sep 23, 2013)

If you can get to leeward of a boat that would otherwise beat you, force them over the line, and then bear away and get speed and clear air, that's great. If you start just to windward of them, but not ahead, it's likely that with their cleaner bottoms and newer sails, they will push you up and then roll out from under you, so that's not good. If you can somehow be to windward and ahead, they'll be in your bad air and they'll have to tack away. If your crew work is good, you can probably tack to cover them then. You'll probably be able to beat them upwind, but you'll lose the race trying to match race in a fleet (and they may be able to roll you downwind). Nothing wrong with just starting with speed in clear air.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

In my experience most club level one design fleets have 2 or 3 tiers within them. The fully prepped boats with new sails are pretty much always leading the fleet, followed by the well prepped, well sailed boats with older sails. The back of the fleet are the guys that are just learning, and the guys running old sails and dirty bottoms. (There is NO excuse for racing one-design with a dirty bottom! Spend a few minutes with a bottom brush before every race!)

There is no one way to start against faster boats. Sure, it would be great if you could get under the faster boats and push them over early, but they are not likely to let that happen. If they sail higher and faster than you then even if you do manage to get yourself in a controlling position on them it is not going to last long. Most of the time you will be better off not tangling with them. Sail your own race, and look for clean air. 

Those that say a dirty bottom doesn't matter as much in light air; I couldn't disagree more! I have sail in a light air region for many years, and I can tell you from experience, the cleanest, best prepped bottoms are ALWAYS fastest in light air. Same goes for sails. If your sails are old and stretched they will never be as fast as new sails in light air. You need to be able to "shift gears" in light air, and old sails that are too full and can't be flattened are missing one of those gears.

Sent from my SM-G981W using Tapatalk


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

SchockT said:


> Those that say a dirty bottom doesn't matter as much in light air; I couldn't disagree more! I have sail in a light air region for many years, and I can tell you from experience, *the cleanest, best prepped bottoms are ALWAYS fastest in light air*.


I didn't say a dirty bottom doesn't matter as much in light air. I chose my words carefully, saying "a *rough* bottom is detrimental at any speed, but in light air, at very slow speeds, the detriment is less pronounced, and, more importantly, if you develop good light air skills, the gains you'll make from those skills will far outweigh the detriment from a rough bottom."

Like you. I also spoke from experience. I bought a 25' racer that had bottom paint that felt like very coarse sandpaper. I couldn't have it repainted that year, but I had a diver clean it regularly. In moderate and stronger winds it was horribly slow and couldn't point with the OD fleet. But I also raced it in a Friday night series that happened to be mostly light air that year, and we won the series. That year, my boat had the worst prepped bottom in the fleet. 

I didn't say a rough bottom doesn't matter. Of course it matters. My point was that, in light air, if you develop good light air skills, your skills can overcome the detriment of a rough bottom. If you can keep your sails full and driving and keep the boat moving when others, with smoother bottoms and newer sails are sitting there with slatting sails, you can win the race.


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## danstanford (Aug 3, 2010)

Remember that the leeward boat has rights to go as high as they want/can before the start and headed up that first beat. In addition, assuming the boats are even, the leeward boat will be shedding dirty air that is heading the windward boat especially if you can close the gauge to them. Look up lee bow for diagrams showing the effect of the wind shadow of the leeward boat. 

Overall, I would focus the most on being at the line on time with good speed which gives you many more options.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

I'm just happy to see the racers weighing in. For some reason traditionally those that race get looked upon unfavorably, and vice versa.
I for one race and cruise..


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## danstanford (Aug 3, 2010)

Good explanation with great graphics of lee bow.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Maybe I've missed seeing it, but is this a windward start to a windward mark? And identical one-design class? And is this typically a class that accelerates well, so they "sit" on or near the line, then accelerate out at the gun? (meaning dinghies and lightweight sloops). Or heavier boats that take time to get going, where you have to be moving before and at the start?

Clear air at the wrong (typically leeward) end will usually beat dirty air up near the committee boat, except for that one or two boats that have clear air and hit the line exactly.

If it's going to shift left, then start to leeward and go left til the shift, then tack. If it's going to shift right, then you have to be at or near the committee boat, and hold that lift, or tack away soonest if you're in the second row, then back onto starboard as soon as you got clear air for it.

Clear air beats dirty air. So if you're slower, start where they "ain't", and be looking for a hole to tack into before they can parade past you.


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## danstanford (Aug 3, 2010)

Remember as well that tacking out from the second row makes you lifted as you pass by the sterns of the boats above you given the way our sails bend the breeze in our shadow.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

What you're racing in could make a difference in your tactics too. Solings are not going to behave the same way as Thistles, for example. Momentum and wind strength could also influence how you approach this problem. It makes sense to go for the best start you can. If you get rolled after that, or get stuck in bad air, tack away. You'll still be ahead of all the guys who got lousy starts.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

I thought the OP stated, he's racing a Catalina 22.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

They're racing Catalina 22's as a one-design fleet? OK...they're not Solings! From looking at the picture at Sailboatdata - SailboatData.com - CATALINA 22 Sailboat , positioning the jib sheet leads would seem quite important on this boat. The condition and age of the sails would also have considerable impact on performance. Sanding the centerboard smooth or contouring it would be helpful. These boats are heavy enough to keep moving once they're going, but are not going to be thoroughbreds upwind. Keeping up speed at the start will be key, since there's enough wetted surface to slow things down fast if you're not moving along smartly. This would make looking for clear air and good speed at the start more important than being at the exact right spot on the line. Especially if being at just the right spot means getting sandwiched between the Committee Boat and a 'racer-prepped' boat to leeward. Working in clear air to the windward mark will provide opportunities on the downwind leg(s) if skipper and crew can avoid sailhandling problems.
Good luck!


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I haven't raced for 20 years because I get too agressive. 🙄

IMHO you're missing the point. The guys that win each weekend have the 'sauce'. The only way to nail them is identify them and match race them and no one else. That let's you learn only from winners. Also lets you uncover your failings. 

BTW the only way to win a start is to have the killer bee 🐝 in your hat. Get switched on and win the start then keep that concentration up. Do better every week.


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## danstanford (Aug 3, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I haven't raced for 20 years because I get too agressive. 🙄
> 
> IMHO you're missing the point. The guys that win each weekend have the 'sauce'. The only way to nail them is identify them and match race them and no one else. That let's you learn only from winners. Also lets you uncover your failings.
> 
> BTW the only way to win a start is to have the killer bee 🐝 in your hat. Get switched on and win the start then keep that concentration up. Do better every week.


OP only asked about Windward or Leeward of other boats on the line as preferable as I remember so most of the input here was about that. In my opinion, successful racing is about doing the best in all the little areas and having some reasonable understanding and execution of good tactics. You can have perfect execution but miss all the shifts and you will lose. You can nail the shifts but miss the breeze on the course and you will likely lose. You can get these right and fail to steer or trim well through the whole race and your odds go way down. Getting all these as right as you can is the key.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Successful racing is like that old joke about the young man who walks up to an older New Yorker on the street and asks" How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" and the New Yorker replies, "Practice my son, practice".

Part of that practice should be to help understand and leverage your strengths, and find improvements and work arounds for your short-comings. I think that the original question was about developing a work around on the starting line.

Jeff


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## jmallett (Jul 3, 2013)

The rules change once the starting signal goes off. Before that you can luff another boat up and maybe push them over the line. After the start boats must follow their "proper course". Assuming this is a one design class and that you can keep close on the wind, then the windward side at the right hand end is the controlling position. If they attempt to luff you up you can protest that they sailed above their proper course. In the controlling position you can force them all the way out, as far as you want, unless they drop behind and duck below your transom. Not easy in a busy fleet as they now have to negotiate traffic on a port tack.
You then get to tack when you want.


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## jmallett (Jul 3, 2013)

Additional thoughts as an addendum. Read how RRS 17 modifies RRS 11.
If you can't get the committee boat end somewhere down the line with clear air to starboard will work just as well. Just before the start luff up your windward boat and get some separation from your leeward boat, then as the windward slows up, fall off for speed getting clearer air as you cross the line.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Port Tack approach


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

SHNOOL said:


> Port Tack approach


When I was racing J-70's and J-22's one design we used that port approach, find a hole, and flop over tactic a lot. I still like that approach in a big fleet or on a short line for the number of boats. The key is not only picking the right hole, but tacking at the right time. If you pick your hole too early, you will end up reaching down on the boats to leeward and either needing to slow down or else worse yet get pushed over the line early. If you pick your hole too late, you will end up either going too slow at the start and maybe getting rolled by the boats to windward.

In the case of my current boat it takes 45 to 50 seconds to get fully back up to speed once I start a tack. That means i need to commit to my hole at least a minute before the gun, and 30-40 seconds below the line while not tacking so close to a competitor that the can call a 'tacked to close' protest.

This approach is not ideal. when the right side of the course is strongly favored because you need to really leg out on the guys to windward in order to have room to tack and cross the majority of the boats to your right. That can happen when you are scratch boat in a PHRF or ORC fleet, but rarely happens in One-design classes.

Jeff


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## jmallett (Jul 3, 2013)

SHNOOL said:


> Port Tack approach


That is a valid "approach", but, as the video says, and shows, is really only useful if you are behind the fleet in the last minute or so and you can guarantee a big enough hole. To be 100% certain that there will be a big enough hole you need an overly long start line (race committe calculated incorrectly) or a small number of boats. You certainly couldn't be up with the fast boats near the start line and be on port.
You could be lucky.
As the video shows you are still going to make your final tack on starboard and cross the line on starboard.
The OPs question was about leeward, windward and that still applies regardless of what you were doing a minute or 30 seconds before. A port approach almost guarantees you will be leeward. As shown in the video boat 50 approaches a starboard tack boat and tacks away, apparently to gain speed. Tacking loses speed so you now risk falling behind and end up leeward, with the other guy in the controlling position.
Yes, you can do it, but as the video says, it is generally a desperate choice when you are badly positioned. Relying on this with a short line and or large fleet is a recipe for being last over the line.


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## danstanford (Aug 3, 2010)

jmallett said:


> The rules change once the starting signal goes off. Before that you can luff another boat up and maybe push them over the line. After the start boats must follow their "proper course". Assuming this is a one design class and that you can keep close on the wind, then the windward side at the right hand end is the controlling position. If they attempt to luff you up you can protest that they sailed above their proper course. In the controlling position you can force them all the way out, as far as you want, unless they drop behind and duck below your transom. Not easy in a busy fleet as they now have to negotiate traffic on a port tack.
> You then get to tack when you want.


Though this is correct for one circumstance it is not a blanket rule. If you become the leeward boat within two hull lengths of the windward boat you do not have rights to luff that boat beyond close hauled after the start line. In other circumstances (for example windward moves into an overlap position) leeward can luff windward all the way to head to wind.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

jmallett said:


> Relying on this with a short line and or large fleet is a recipe for being last over the line.


I beg your pardon, and with all due respect, at least in my experience the approach on port, find a hole, and flop onto starboard tactic works best when there is a short line or a big fleet. Inevitably there is someone who will take up a bunch of windward boats with the idea of clearing a hole for their boat to leeward. That boat has done you a great favor. This is especially true since that boat and the windward boats are going slow from jerking around with each other.

The port-tack-flop-over boat is coming in with good speed and can use the hole that the other boat made to provide a clear air - good speed start. In a big fleet or a tight line that is about as good as it gets.

At that point if the boats above try to drop down on the port-tack-flop-over boat, they are dropping into an "about to get lee-bowed" position. If they stay up, they are holding off the windward huddle from impacting the port-tack-flop-over boat. 

Does it work every time? No. 
Does it work a large percentage of the time? Yup, especially if you found your way to Carnegie Hall (Post #32).

Jeff


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## jmallett (Jul 3, 2013)

Sure, that's correct. May not make sense if it slows you up and the fleet sails off, but you are correct, and it is useful to know.


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## jmallett (Jul 3, 2013)

Jeff_H said:


> I beg your pardon, and with all due respect, at least in my experience the approach on port, find a hole, and flop onto starboard tactic works best when there is a short line or a big fleet. Inevitably there is someone who will take up a bunch of windward boats with the idea of clearing a hole for their boat to leeward. That boat has done you a great favor. This is especially true since that boat and the windward boats are going slow from jerking around with each other.
> 
> The port-tack-flop-over boat is coming in with good speed and can use the hole that the other boat made to provide a clear air - good speed start. In a big fleet or a tight line that is about as good as it gets.
> 
> ...


Again, you would need to be behind the fast lane and hope that hole appeared at the right time and in the right place, which is unlikely in a tight line. Maybe you are sailing PHRF with boats well spaced out.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

jmallett said:


> Again, you would need to be behind the fast lane and hope that hole appeared at the right time and in the right place, which is unlikely in a tight line. Maybe you are sailing PHRF with boats well spaced out.


While I do sail in PHRF short-handed fleets with my own boat, and these days ORC OPB Wednesday nights on bigger keel boats, my observations are based on when I was sailing in very competitive J-70 and J-22 one design fleets in Annapolis, 

The more competitive the fleet and the denser the line, the more likely there is to be an aggressive sailor (or sailors) who will open a hole for their boat that you can jump into. You are right that the Port-tack-find-a-hole-boat starts out reaching fast behind the front line of boats but that front line is moving much more slowly and have a harder time accelerating in the turbulent air at the line, So while they are closer to the line and in the front row, the Port-tack-find-a-hole-boat has the advantage of speed and space to control their start more precisely. Properly done, you spit out the front at the gun.

The key is to know how much speed you will lose tacking and fore reaching through the bad air so that you hit the line on time and still have more speed than the guys above you, 

Jeff


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

"Proper course" is often misunderstood. Upwind, one of the "hot" "racer-boats" in the fleet might simply be able to outpoint you. Their proper course could be 10º higher than yours, even if you're sailing in a one-design fleet. If you're to windward of them, telling them to hold their "proper course" will not help you. As windward boat, you still need to keep clear. Even on downwind legs, another boat's 'proper course' could be higher than the rhumb line to the next mark -- that may be why they're passing you! We had a competitor find this out to his dismay. We passed him to leeward, pointing higher than him, as he cried out "Proper Course!" The RC told him that his protest would not win, so he withdrew it. Now he knows too.


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## jmallett (Jul 3, 2013)

Some good points here, in helping the OP, as I said, you need to be able to point as well as the other boats. In one design, if you can't then you are not going to win anyway. The OPs question is about whether to be windward or leeward on the start line. If at that time you are seriously outpointed then get the leeward, but if you can't point competitively then you soon become windward to the next boat. Maybe take up golf?
Luffing up is not a proper course. You, or they can't do that after the start.
Ten degrees difference is huge for a one design, but not necessarily for PHRF. If you are ten degrees off you need to work on different skills and are going to be far behind anyway at the mark so just let them go. No reason to mess up a good boat just because you can't trim properly.
PHRF is a different case, while ten degrees is still a huge difference just a couple of degrees will enable leeward to climb up on you. 
Your Race Committe was wrong to make a statement about a possible protest during the race. That's a big no-no. 

Putting this together for the OP the decision on windward or leeward needs to take into account whether you can point competitively with the rest of the fleet (one design or PHRF) and try to choose which boats you have next to you.
Do remember the change of rules at the start. After the start they, and you, can no longer luff up as a tactic.
If they can't close on you you are controlling them and they have to keep going or duck behind, but ducking on to port right after the start has it's own problems.
Away from the start as boats spread out a little then other factors do come in to play as others have clarified.


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## danstanford (Aug 3, 2010)

This is a pretty simple but clear explanation of luffing rights referred to above. You will note near the bottom that except for situations covered in Rule 17 that leeward can luff up a windward boat until head to wind. 









Luffing Rights & Proper Course. Rule 17 of the Racing Rules of Sailing - Dinghy Racing Tips


The proper course rule probably confuses more sailors than any other rule. However, the basics are actually pretty straightforward. This article will start by explaining the basics and progress into an FAQ to help clarify the finer points. The Basics The proper course rule (Rule 17) is...




dinghyracingtips.com


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Just eating popcorn here.








Sometimes I just start the fight, and watch fireworks. ie: port tack start. 
Racers are funny folk. 

Just an observation. If this is developing into a question of Point (which it should), remember point is developed from a combination of factors. Obviously clean bottom, good sails will get you a long way. But without boat SPEED, and proper rig tune/trim are also important factors. If you are claiming people are outpointing you in a OD fleet (don't care if its J70s, lasers, sonar, sunfish, or Tartan 10s), you need to start to itemize all those things that effect point, and start to check them off until your point comes up. 

The obvious ones under your control and least cost are trim, and rig tune. The thing most people don't get is rig tune is unique yes for the boat, but also unique to the sails you own. Each manufacturer will usually give a rough rig tune guide that applies for their sails, for your boat. There are also good generic tuning guides that can get you partially there. Finally sail trim (assuming rig tune is right) is a big part of it. If you have 3 OD boats, and the sails are essentially the same, it might be good to look how they are trimming and WHEN, to see why their point is better. Yep its good sails perhaps, but I'd bet money rig tune and trim are at least as much or more of it. To the OP specifically now, the Catalina 22 is a WELL KNOWN boat, and its handling/trim characteristics are therefore well documented. I'd wager heavily that the tuning guides available on the class association will get you a pretty good guide to follow.

Finally in light air, crappy sails will oftentimes perform as good as crispy new sails, especially if the weight of the material is right.
PS: The Cat 22 is such a popular boat, that used racing sails can be found/had for sofa change. To the OP my hats off to you finding a great fleet to race with because finding used gear is gonna be easy a heck, and boat rig/tune will make a world of difference in how well you do. Ebay is your friend.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

jmallett said:


> Some good points here, in helping the OP, as I said, you n
> Your Race Committe was wrong to make a statement about a possible protest during the race. That's a big no-no.


To avoid having to hold full-blown Protest Hearings, our Sailing Instructions called for an Arbitration option after the race but before protests are actually submitted. The Arbiter (usually someone from the Race Committee or Protest Committee) listens to the parties involved to see what happened. He or she then advises them what the rules are and what the likely outcome is. This avoids embarrassing people who don't know the rules. They can withdraw their protest before creating a fuss over a non-issue or misinterpretation that would have ended up inconveniencing the Race Committee, the Protest Committee, the protested boat, and perhaps the rest of the fleet waiting to find out the finish order. That is what happened in the example I mentioned.


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## jmallett (Jul 3, 2013)

danstanford said:


> This is a pretty simple but clear explanation of luffing rights referred to above. You will note near the bottom that except for situations covered in Rule 17 that leeward can luff up a windward boat until head to wind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





paulk said:


> To avoid having to hold full-blown Protest Hearings, our Sailing Instructions called for an Arbitration option after the race but before protests are actually submitted. The Arbiter (usually someone from the Race Committee or Protest Committee) listens to the parties involved to see what happened. He or she then advises them what the rules are and what the likely outcome is. This avoids embarrassing people who don't know the rules. They can withdraw their protest before creating a fuss over a non-issue or misinterpretation that would have ended up inconveniencing the Race Committee, the Protest Committee, the protested boat, and perhaps the rest of the fleet waiting to find out the finish order. That is what happened in the example I mentioned.


OK, that's fair. The way your original post was written seemed to indicate that the RC gave an opinion at the time of the incident.


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## Tuna Driver (Sep 17, 2011)

To answer your OP question; not so simple. You stated the other boats are faster and sailed well. You will not catch them out by luffing them over the line from leeward. They will see you coming a boatlength away. You won't be able to catch them on the committee side from windward. They will squeeze you off every time. Your competition is the second tier boats. Concentrate on beating them and learning you way into the "A" fleet. Key is clear air. Let the others mess with each other and slow each other down. Start, probably to leeward, in as clear air as you can find. Port start is chancy, but an advantage may be gained if you are looking to get to the right side of the course and can find a lane. This saves a tack and your competitors often have a herd instinct and are looking for the traditional starboard start even if it makes little sense for the conditions. Good luck. One Design is one of most fun things you can do on a boat.


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## OptiKid99 (5 mo ago)

If you're ever leeward of one of the "fast boats", usually you should head down a few degrees to gain more speed and a bit of clear air and then head up again. this doesn't just apply for that specific situation, this works whenever you are going slower than the fleet. While it does make you lose a bit of distance, this combined with tacking with the shifts is very fast.


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## PGandW (4 mo ago)

To confirm what others have already said, when I was young and stupid I once raced against international competition. We won every start because we were used to the rough and tumble of dinghy racing at the collegiate level, but lost every race, as the competition was able to make the boat go faster than we were. The last day was extremely light airs, and I had figured out the morning wind pattern, so we went to where the wind was going to come in from. The others stayed in the middle of the course. We were 1st at the windward mark but missed the 60 minute deadline by 48 seconds, so racing was called for the day.

If the boat isn't fully competitive on speed, the maybe 30 second advantage over the next boat from "winning" the start doesn't mean squat.

Fred W


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