# Winter Moisture Control



## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

I'm transitioning to livingaboard my boat come April, however, I'm trying to troubleshoot as many problems as I can before I move on. Since the winter is coming to the Mid-Atlantic soon, my major concern at the moment is moisture and condensation. I know all about dew point and all that fun stuff, but what I would really like to know is: *What are the most effective ways you all have found to help control moisture aboard?* Any and all suggestions and advice are welcome!


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## Tanley (Aug 20, 2009)

Let me google that for you


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Its all about ventilation, I live aboard year round in Northern Washington with a dog that is usually soaking wet from the constant rain, so condensation and moisture is my bunk mate. The better the ventilation the warmer and dryer you will be. Try the small electric oil heaters also.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

*"HyperVent" from Defender, or equivalent, under bunks and settee cushions.

*If you're on shore power, a home-size dehumidifier from Home Depot or Lowe's, plumbed to drain directly to the bilge.

*Reflectix (silver bubble wrap stuff) lining the worst offender lockers

*Wipe cabin top and other mold-prone surfaces with a mix of white vinegar and water. We've heard good reports of tea-tree oil, gonna try that this winter as well.

*Tempting as it is to make soup or pasta for dinner every night, be conscious of meals that put excess moisture into the cabin. Or use pressure cooker.

*Rum! (Doesn't help the humidity but helps you keep it in perspective)


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Great suggestions, one note, HyperVent wont work under cushions if they are not water resistant, I use something like it to line my hull and keep condensation off locker contents, all the moisture drains into bilge, cans stored up to 6 months still show no signs of moisture.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Ugh, when Sandy roared through I got absolutely whacked with condensation. The worst I've experienced so far.

I already had Hypervent under my cushions, and I've been running the electric, oil-filled heater. I ran out and bought the foil-backed insulation today, and I've already cut panels for the windows, hatches and the gaping maw of an anchor chain locker that is wide-open to the V-berth.

I need to build a wooden hatch cover for the anchor chain locker, and then put the insulation panel on top of _that_.

I fear that the only real way I'm going to get control of this situation is a dehumidifier. I really don't want another electrical load, another appliance to trip over... sigh.

One of those dry, autumn days would sure help dry out the boat after this storm.


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## flyingriki (Sep 27, 2012)

Am getting back into boating and remember that the material used to make Hypervent is actually a common material used somewhere else - maybe construction, for a hell of a lot less money. Does anyone recall where to find it outside the marine world?


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

Thanks all for the advise! I'm glad I get a chance to "test run" a winter before moving on. It gives me some chance for trial and error. Nice to hear from people in the region!
Bubblehead, I have been putting up the reflectix all over the boat... hope it really does work. I also have a large opening where my anchor chain is, bungied a piece of tarp over it for Sandy, worked ok. Need to get a new cap for it. I figure, after going through Sandy I should have a good baseline for the worst that will happen. 
Wing, rum makes everything better! Let me know how the teatree oil does! Smells better than vinegar!


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

Barefoot - Looks like our boats are of similar size, what type of heater do you use? Also, it will just be me and my dog so ventilation is a must!


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

TheTardis said:


> Thanks all for the advise! I'm glad I get a chance to "test run" a winter before moving on. It gives me some chance for trial and error. Nice to hear from people in the region!
> Bubblehead, I have been putting up the reflectix all over the boat... hope it really does work. I also have a large opening where my anchor chain is, bungied a piece of tarp over it for Sandy, worked ok. Need to get a new cap for it. I figure, after going through Sandy I should have a good baseline for the worst that will happen.
> Wing, rum makes everything better! Let me know how the teatree oil does! Smells better than vinegar!


The good news is, after a single night of having insulation installed and running the heater at full throttle, the boat is now DRY. The window frames have stopped sweating and my clothing is all dry. I still have two long panels to cut and install on the bulkheads in the v-berth, but that's all.

I'm mightily impressed.


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## MysticGringo (Oct 9, 2006)

BubbleheadMd said:


> The good news is, after a single night of having insulation installed and running the heater at full throttle, the boat is now DRY. The window frames have stopped sweating and my clothing is all dry. I still have two long panels to cut and install on the bulkheads in the v-berth, but that's all.
> 
> I'm mightily impressed.


I had a similar experience as you. This is my first winter aboard, and we stayed on during Sandy. I did everything wrong when I comes to condensation. I buttoned up the boat tight, kept bringing in wet foul-weather gear, made pasta (was warm and tasty, so I don't see it totally wrong) and only had a firepot (extremely closely watched) for heat. Every surface was dripping. 

When they brought power back on, I ran a heater, cracked a vent, and am completely dry. I didn't add any insulation though. I think its all about ventilation... atleast for me. Warm air from heater absorbs the moisture, then escapes thru the hatch I have cracked open.


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

BubbleheadMd said:


> The good news is, after a single night of having insulation installed and running the heater at full throttle, the boat is now DRY. The window frames have stopped sweating and my clothing is all dry. I still have two long panels to cut and install on the bulkheads in the v-berth, but that's all.
> 
> I'm mightily impressed.


Are you using an adhesive to attach it? also, did you put it in the ports?


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

In Maine, we ventilate and dehumidify.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

TheTardis said:


> Are you using an adhesive to attach it? also, did you put it in the ports?


I put it in the ports and hatches. I did not use adhesive, I simply cut it snug and let friction hold it in. I will periodically pop it out to make sure that nothing grungy is growing behind it.

If you insist on attaching the insulation somehow, I suggest using small squares or strips of velcro, so that you can remove it when the weather is warmer.

I actually sail my boat, so I don't want any of this stuff to be permanent. It's unsightly, and in plain view. I only tolerate it because winter is coming on.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

flyingriki said:


> Am getting back into boating and remember that the material used to make Hypervent is actually a common material used somewhere else - maybe construction, for a hell of a lot less money. Does anyone recall where to find it outside the marine world?


It kind of reminds me of roof ridge vent material, but I think it only comes in strips.

modernbuilderssupply.com: Air Vent Easy Up Rolled Ridge Vent - Black

I know people say they use wood slats from Ikea to hold the cushions up and allow air circulation. I would imagine the Froli springs would help as well.


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I put it in the ports and hatches. I did not use adhesive, I simply cut it snug and let friction hold it in. I will periodically pop it out to make sure that nothing grungy is growing behind it.
> 
> If you insist on attaching the insulation somehow, I suggest using small squares or strips of velcro, so that you can remove it when the weather is warmer.
> 
> I actually sail my boat, so I don't want any of this stuff to be permanent. It's unsightly, and in plain view. I only tolerate it because winter is coming on.


I sail mine as well, however I want a more permanent and aesthetically pleasing (I am a girl after all) solution. I am installing the insulation and then placing a painted facade over it. Thought being that it will keep warm in winter and help keep cool in summer.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Ah, for keeping cool in the summer, I'll put Reflectix in the windows, and stretch a white or silver tarp over a portion of the cabin top. The Reflectix is much thinner and easier to work with.

I also have a CruiseAir air-conditioning unit so...


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I just use a small west marine floor heater, I have to say winter is no biggie here at 48 north, I dont do anything special and even the few weeks a year when its in the teens with ice around the boat, frozen docks and high wind I'm never cold and I'm from So cal. I let my heater run on low 24 hours a day during the coldest part of winter so the boat never gets beneath about 40 and is easy enough to heat up. I haven't done anything special as I sail year round and want to be able to leave in a moments notice.


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## NoDogue (Nov 1, 2012)

does anyone use a woodstove to heat with? how does that stack up for keeping out the winter dampness?


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## benjiwoodboat (Aug 6, 2007)

I've lined my boat with bubble wrap (on the inside) and used Damp Rid. We also don't heat the interior excessively. That seems to help minimize the moisture.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

I'm surprised so many boaters like those oil filled heaters. I hate the bloody things. 
My dad bought me one, and it works OK at night(I use it at 700watts and the proper electric forced air heater at 600watts to keep the boat fairly evenly heated).
However, I find that it smells a bit, and doesn't warm the boat nearly as well as the one that moves some air, in addition the humidity stays much higher with only the oil filled one.

The worst parts of the oil filled heater is its tendency to burn things, I burn myself on it at least once a day, or melt a plastic bag onto it or something.
By contrast, the Caframo(re-branded by west marine with fewer fan speeds, the original is nicer.) helps keep my boat dry, warm and isn't prone to burning things.


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

benjiwoodboat said:


> I've lined my boat with bubble wrap (on the inside) and used Damp Rid. We also don't heat the interior excessively. That seems to help minimize the moisture.


Although I'm sure a silver, bubble wrapped boat would look quite spectacular!


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Jgbrown said:


> I'm surprised so many boaters like those oil filled heaters. I hate the bloody things.
> My dad bought me one, and it works OK at night(I use it at 700watts and the proper electric forced air heater at 600watts to keep the boat fairly evenly heated).
> However, I find that it smells a bit, and doesn't warm the boat nearly as well as the one that moves some air, in addition the humidity stays much higher with only the oil filled one.
> 
> ...


I would have the oil filled heater checked. I have seen several and none of them even on high would melt a plastic bag. On 700 watts you should be able to touch it. There also should be no smell from it, at least not after a short brake in time.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

treilley said:


> In Maine, we ventilate and dehumidify.


That sounds like seting a heater next to an AC unit and betting on the outcome (normally one either vents or dehumidifies). Please explain.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

miatapaul said:


> I would have the oil filled heater checked. I have seen several and none of them even on high would melt a plastic bag. On 700 watts you should be able to touch it. There also should be no smell from it, at least not after a short brake in time.


Brand new, less than 3 weeks old. 
Smell is going away slowly, still hate the damn thing. 
Just discovered mold spots on my new V-berth cushions.
Only where they sit over the air space that is exposed forward, but it's enough!
Oil heater is going out, and I'm putting the dehumidifier back in. Much better 

Still uncertain on the whole dehumidify and venting at the same time(seems counterproductive to do a lot of both.

I found the hypervent as a construction material(called examat) but no source to buy it from in the quantities I want. I'll pay the price at the marine store I guess, and get some more of it. I have it already under my settees, and in the lazarette seems to allow decent drainage, and I haven't seen any mold on it yet.


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

So, all of you who use the hypervent would agree that it is worth the price?


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Jgbrown said:


> Still uncertain on the whole dehumidify and venting at the same time(seems counterproductive to do a lot of both.
> 
> I found the hypervent as a construction material(called examat) but no source to buy it from in the quantities I want. I'll pay the price at the marine store I guess, and get some more of it. I have it already under my settees, and in the lazarette seems to allow decent drainage, and I haven't seen any mold on it yet.


I have seen a very similar product sold as roof ridge vent mat at most Big Box stores, but it comes in fairly narrow strips (likely good for settees) and long full rolls, but I think it was less than $50 for a 10.5 inch by 20 foot (Crobra brand by GAF).


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## flyingriki (Sep 27, 2012)

miatapaul said:


> I have seen a very similar product sold as roof ridge vent mat at most Big Box stores, but it comes in fairly narrow strips (likely good for settees) and long full rolls, but I think it was less than $50 for a 10.5 inch by 20 foot (Crobra brand by GAF).


I think that was it. If I remember correctly it was a HELL of a lot cheaper than the rip off prices for the same thing at West Marine.....


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

Thanks! Doesn't seam like anywhere near me has it in stock but I can order it. That is a whole lot less expensive than $10 per foot!


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

TheTardis said:


> Thanks! Doesn't seam like anywhere near me has it in stock but I can order it. That is a whole lot less expensive than $10 per foot!


Mine was a gift from a friend because he had leftovers from fitting out his boat.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

miatapaul said:


> ..... it was less than $50 for a 10.5 inch by 20 foot (Crobra brand by GAF).


Is that really a whole lot cheaper? say $40 for a 10.5 inch by 20 foot chunk.. pretty much the same as $10 for a foot that's 5 feet wide.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Defender.com Search Results: hypervent $10/foot x 40 inches at Defender, and yes, it's worth it.

We lined the entire inside of the boat with Reflectix one winter. The esthetic was funky but it was warm!


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

wingNwing said:


> Defender.com Search Results: hypervent $10/foot x 40 inches at Defender, and yes, it's worth it.
> 
> We lined the entire inside of the boat with Reflectix one winter. The esthetic was funky but it was warm!


Yes, it does start looking a bit like the lunar lander!


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Jgbrown said:


> ...Oil heater is going out, and I'm putting the dehumidifier back in. Much better
> 
> Still uncertain on the whole dehumidify and venting at the same time(seems counterproductive to do a lot of both.


The trouble with heating is that it solves the problem in the heated area; the water simply builds to higher levels and then moves to cooler areas (forward under the bunk or in lockers against the hull) where it can condense. Obviously heat does not remove water, it only makes it more soluable in air. It is only truly effective if you heat enough, consistantly, to keep everything above the dew point.

Dehumidifying and venting... why? But you knew that.

The only problem with dehuidifying alone is that at very low temperatures (below about 50F) dehumidifiers lose effectiveness. While there may be enough water in the air to cause dew or frost, there really isn't enough for the unit to catch on to. Then some heat can help.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Good insulation and a good woodstove eliminates both problems.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

I find this thread interesting. Usually condensation is a result of the space temperature being below the dew point. Insulation doesn't stop heat loss, it only slows it down. 

My concern with installing insulation or hypervent on the outboard side of the hull is has anyone removed the product after a winter of living aboard to see what's growing behind it? When we first started building tight energy effiicent homes, we discovered that the moisture within the house eventually lead to mold problems because the houses were so tight, they did not exfiltrate. This issue was solved by the installation of heat recovery ventilators which moved that mositure to the outdoors. 

In my mind a boat does not breath or exfiltrate. Ventilation really is the key to removing moisture inside a boat that creates all these problems.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

pdqaltair said:


> The trouble with heating is that it solves the problem in the heated area; the water simply builds to higher levels and then moves to cooler areas (forward under the bunk or in lockers against the hull) where it can condense. Obviously heat does not remove water, it only makes it more soluable in air. It is only truly effective if you heat enough, consistantly, to keep everything above the dew point.
> 
> Dehumidifying and venting... why? But you knew that.
> 
> The only problem with dehuidifying alone is that at very low temperatures (below about 50F) dehumidifiers lose effectiveness. While there may be enough water in the air to cause dew or frost, there really isn't enough for the unit to catch on to. Then some heat can help.


For me heating is about getting moisture into the air so it will exit the boat via one of the vents.

That's exactly my puzzle with it, people do recommend both. The mold under my mattress has certainty caused me some stress. Tonight I threw the full power dehumidifier in there, already down to 40 %.

To other poster: it really does help, I was really worried about what I'd find behind the insulation panels(loose fit reflectix). My boat was the poster child for potential mold issues at the time, badly ventilated, no insulation, propane heated. The only place without mold was the areas behind the insulation, hull was clean there. As I understand it, if the insulation slows heat loss enough that the inner surface of the insulation is above the dew point, you don't get condensation. This proves out nicely with my v berth, the part that molded was the only part right above cold air in a uninsulated locker. They had taped all the way around the edge of the reflectix, the one edge they forgot had some mold behind it.

EDIT: What about http://www.homedepot.ca/product/cobra-exhaust-metric-vent-hand-nail-version/967450
instead of hypervent? Seems fairly similar, and available locally.

Does anyone know of a source for hypervent in Canada?

http://www.advancedbuildingproducts.com/commercial/watairvent.cfm
looks to be exactly the same as hypervent but I can't find any source for it.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I've never really been tempted to live aboard over the winter in cold weather. Looking forward to it down south one day. However, there are moments where we've thought about it.

There are two problems with moisture. First, the amount of water vapor available and the dew point, which will determine whether it remains in the air.

On a boat, it is nearly impossible to keep water from being evaporated into the air. Boiling water, showers, wet bilges, breathing, etc, etc. You will add moisture to the air, there is no stopping that.

The dew point is more complicated. It is expressed as a temperature, but is really a factor of ambient temperature and how much moisture has been evaporated into the surrounding air. The more moisture in the air, the higher the dew point will be, meaning the closer to the ambient temperature it will be. Said differently, it is the temperature at which the air would no longer be able to hold onto the amount of moisture absorbed within it. The warmer the air the more moisture it can hold. 70 degree air can hold more than 50 degree air, which can hold more than 30 degree air, which can hold more than 10 degree air, etc, etc. Reduce the temperature and there is a point where it can no longer hold the moisture within it and it condensates out.

The biggest problem with a boat in the winter, is not keeping the interior air above the dew point, its keeping the hull above the dew point. While you may keep the salon table relatively warm, put your hand on the hull inside a hanging locker or galley cabinet. It will be much colder, maybe by tens of degrees and undoubtedly below the dew point. That's why you get condensation, followed by mildew, and not necessarily where you can see it. Insulation helps, but as some have pointed out, it may only transfer the problem behind the insulation if the moist air can get behind the insulation.

The only good solution, IMO, is to substantially reduce the actual humidity in the air, thereby, reducing the dew point below even the cold hull temperature. That can only be done effectively with electric powered dehumidifiers IMHO.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

>The only good solution, IMO, is to substantially reduce the actual humidity in the air, >thereby, reducing the dew point below even the cold hull temperature. That can only >be done effectively with electric powered dehumidifiers IMHO. 


That works if you're tied to dock w/ shore power. The reality is you want your heating system to be capable of producing suffient air changes per hour within the boat to get rid of the moisture. It's all about pressure.

A perfect example are the diesel fired heaters like espar. You can set these up so they heat 100% outside air or recirculate the return air. Recirculating the air is more energy efficient. If you're recirculating 100% of the return air, you should consider taking in a small percentage of outside air on the return side. In doing so you pressurize the inside of your boat. By keeping a hatch cracked open you get the air changes per hour necessary to remove the moisture. 

In Brent's example of using a wood stove, air is needed for combustion. Although it's under negative pressure due to the process of combsution, the air changes per hour are occuring naturally, thus removing the moisture. Plus wood produces a dry heat. 

Considering the couple of examples above, it all's about ventilation.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

misfits said:


> >The only good solution, IMO, is to substantially reduce the actual humidity in the air, >thereby, reducing the dew point below even the cold hull temperature. That can only >be done effectively with electric powered dehumidifiers IMHO.
> 
> That works if you're tied to dock w/ shore power. The reality is you want your heating system to be capable of producing suffient air changes per hour within the boat to get rid of the moisture. It's all about pressure.
> 
> ...


The ventilation is where the hypervent comes in(or similar product) allowing those air changes to pull the moisture out from under the mattress . However, I think that insulation makes a huge difference too, as in the example of hull temperature, if the insulation keeps the surface temperature 10-15 degrees warmer(and based on my floor vs before insulating the surface, it does) that can certainly help to prevent the condensation forming in the first place.
As a secondary benefit, if it means that the air in the boat stays warmer until it is exhausted from the boat it would mean it holds more moisture.

The hyperdry in lockers at least is less about insulating, it just prevents things from touching the hull and giving that dead air space for mold to form. I've used it in my lazarette and it's making a big difference in how wet things stay(the hatch leaks badly).


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

This is great! I'm really getting a lot from reading thoughts on all sides of this debate and I really appreciate all of your comments! What I have done so far is: Applied mildew/mold resistant primer to the hull and put reflectix over that. The thought being that if there is any mold build up behind the insulation it will be kept to a minimum. I have ordered the hypervent for the settees and v-birth since most everyone agrees that it is a good thing. This leave me with venting or dehumidifying... Since I will need heat either way, I need to choose an appropriate heater. My boat is on 25' so it isn't much space to heat, and I do have shore power. So to redirect this thread for a sec, who is using what heaters and any opinions (and I KNOW you have them ! ) on what may work best for my small space. THANK YOU ALL!


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

TheTardis said:


> This is great! I'm really getting a lot from reading thoughts on all sides of this debate and I really appreciate all of your comments! What I have done so far is: Applied mildew/mold resistant primer to the hull and put reflectix over that. The thought being that if there is any mold build up behind the insulation it will be kept to a minimum. I have ordered the hypervent for the settees and v-birth since most everyone agrees that it is a good thing. This leave me with venting or dehumidifying... Since I will need heat either way, I need to choose an appropriate heater. My boat is on 25' so it isn't much space to heat, and I do have shore power. So to redirect this thread for a sec, *who is using what heaters and any opinions* (and I KNOW you have them ! ) on what may work best for my small space. THANK YOU ALL!


On submarines, our greatest fear was fire or flooding. I am rather paranoid when it comes to heat producing equipment, and the load placed on electrical systems.

You really, really don't want to come back to your boat after a hard days' work and find a hull burned down to the waterline. Not to mention that you have a furry friend onboard.

First, make damn sure that your boat's shore power system is safe, and do not exceed it's load limit. (amperage)

Second, I've found that the oil-filled electric radiator heaters are much safer than forced-air fan heaters with the heater element. The oil-filled heaters have a tip-over shutoff for safety. They make a nice, dry heat.

I have a forced-air heater as a booster, but I NEVER run it unattended.
I also have a Coleman "Black Cat" catalytic propane heater, that will be my emergency booster on those few 11F degree days. I've seen 9F degrees since I've been in Maryland. It ain't pretty. The Coleman heater can be plumbed to a large propane bottle that you keep out in the cockpit if you buy the adapter kit.

pelonis-1-500-watt-portable-electric-oil-filled-radiant-heater

Forced air heater

Coleman Black Cat


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestions! All of the boat's shore power system is brand new, she previously only had DC power. I agree that the electric heaters scare me too. However, it looks like you still have to plug the oil heater in. Sorry if this sounds silly, but how are the two different in that department? What makes the oil heater safer if it is still part electric? (Originally from AZ, don't need many heaters there!) I do have some of the small propane heaters also.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I wouldn't use any 'unvented' propane heaters below.. danger of CO buildup.

Our electric fan heater has a 'tilt' switch and shuts off if it falls over, I think the biggest advantage of the oil heaters is that they are quieter. 

Espars and the like are thirsty both for fuel and power.. so there's no 'free lunch' as they say. If you've shore power available I think a combo of a dehumidifier and a modest heater should work. (the dehu gives off some waste heat too)


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## amarinesurveyor (Feb 12, 2009)

I lived aboard in Wash DC and Annapolis for three winters on an Ericson 30 (headliner with just an air space for insulation), and kept the boat comfortable with two 1500 watt forced air heaters. No condensation.
I think the key is keeping the air moving with hot air, when you heat the air it reduces the humidity. Radiant heaters don't reduce the humidity. Stay warm.
Brian


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

Thanks Brian. Did you ventilate then?


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## bristol299bob (Apr 13, 2011)

TheTardis said:


> However, it looks like you still have to plug the oil heater in. Sorry if this sounds silly, but how are the two different in that department? What makes the oil heater safer if it is still part electric? (Originally from AZ, don't need many heaters there!) I do have some of the small propane heaters also.


The oil heater s an electric heater with the heating elements inside an oil chamber. Ther is no fan on an oil heater. They get warm and air flows by convection. The other electric heaters have a fan that blows air over exposed electric elements that glow red hot.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

amarinesurveyor said:


> .....when you heat the air it reduces the humidity.


That's not exactly correct. The higher the temperature of the air, the more moisture is can retain as humidity. Condensation occurs when the air is saturated with moisture and can't hold any more. Heat the air and it can hold more water, but its still there.

Its super cold air that can't hold much humidity.


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## amarinesurveyor (Feb 12, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> That's not exactly correct. The higher the temperature of the air, the more moisture is can retain as humidity. Condensation occurs when the air is saturated with moisture and can't hold any more. Heat the air and it can hold more water, but its still there.
> 
> Its super cold air that can't hold much humidity.


OK, so maybe I should have said...lowers the relative humidity? The point I was trying to make is that CIRCULATING warm air and heating the inside surfaces seemed to reduce or eliminate condensation for me, and I never found the need to ventilate. Everybody has their own opinion or experience in this matter, some maybe haven't even tried to live aboard in winter, who knows. I was just offering my experience of what worked for me.
Minnewaska, your post is not trying to help them solve the problem of staying warm and dry. Why not offer some helpful advice?
Brian


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

amarinesurveyor said:


> OK, so maybe I should have said...lowers the relative humidity? The point I was trying to make is that CIRCULATING warm air and heating the inside surfaces seemed to reduce or eliminate condensation for me.......


Agreed, if you actually get the surfaces warm. It's when moist warm air meets cool surfaces that the air next to that surface will lower to the dew point and you get condensation.



> Minnewaska, your post is not trying to help them solve the problem of staying warm and dry. Why not offer some helpful advice?
> Brian


See post 38


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

TheTardis said:


> Thanks for the suggestions! All of the boat's shore power system is brand new, she previously only had DC power. I agree that the electric heaters scare me too. *However, it looks like you still have to plug the oil heater in. Sorry if this sounds silly, but how are the two different in that department? What makes the oil heater safer if it is still part electric? *(Originally from AZ, don't need many heaters there!) I do have some of the small propane heaters also.


Admittedly, my evidence is mostly anecdotal, but I've heard of many fires caused by heaters with exposed elements (the forced air type) where the air intake clogged with garbage, or they fell onto something and the tip-over shutoff failed, or the overtemp shutoff failed and caused fires.

I've never heard of this happening with an oil-filled unit. The element is submerged in oil. It remains submerged and contained, even if the unit tips over. The total power of the unit is dedicated to making heat. Some power of a forced-air unit is directed at driving the fan.

Any heat producing equipment that is left unattended, is dangerous. I just feel that the oil-filled units mitigate the danger a little bit.

Also, I'd like to apologize- You should NOT adapt the Coleman propane heater to a larger sized propane bottle. My earlier information was incorrect.

Some people feel that the disposable 1lb. propane bottles are dangerous because the little Schrader valves are cheap and can leak after unscrewing the bottle from the appliance.

This is true, but you can mitigate that danger by leaving the bottle screwed on, until all of the fuel is consumed. They rarely leak once attached to their appliance.

I have also just found (on the web), 1lb. propane bottle caps that allow them to be re-filled. I cannot recommend these, as I don't know anything about them. I am considering buying a pair and trying them out, and I can report back once I've learned something about them.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

Jgbrown said:


> The ventilation is where the hypervent comes in(or similar product) allowing those air changes to pull the moisture out from under the mattress . However, I think that insulation makes a huge difference too, as in the example of hull temperature, if the insulation keeps the surface temperature 10-15 degrees warmer(and based on my floor vs before insulating the surface, it does) that can certainly help to prevent the condensation forming in the first place.
> As a secondary benefit, if it means that the air in the boat stays warmer until it is exhausted from the boat it would mean it holds more moisture.
> 
> The hyperdry in lockers at least is less about insulating, it just prevents things from touching the hull and giving that dead air space for mold to form. I've used it in my lazarette and it's making a big difference in how wet things stay(the hatch leaks badly).


I knew about installing "things" under mattress's & cushions just never made that connection to the hull or lockers. It does make sense to use a product that allows air to circulate behind it. An air space in itself is an insulating layer. Not much of one when we look at the R value but many older buildings relied on that air space prior to the development of insulation.

My only concern would be with a solid foam, fiberboard or batt type of product. The potential for moisture to get trapped behind it & create an environment for mold is there in my mind.


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## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

Hypervent aka "cedar breather". I've covered a roof with it before nailing cedar shake on. Does the same for the roof as .it does for your cushions.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Guys,

The difference between an oil bath electric heater and a fan assisted "ceramic disc" type heater is like the difference between hydronic heat and forced hot air or "scorched air", as we affectionately refereed to it when I was a manufacturers rep in the HVAC business selling boilers, furnaces, radiant heating systems, radiators, baseboard etc. etc...

The oil bath heater acts more like baseboard heat or a hydronic radiator. It moves air, warms it, but does not do much to "dry" it because the surface temp is far to low to dry the air as it moves across the surface.

A fan assisted ceramic disc etc. type heater moves air across a very hot element and in the process the air has some moisture dried out of it. Eventually a good chunk of the moisture in the cabin will be dried using a scorched air type heater whether it be diesel fired or electric.. This is the same with a Webasto, or Espar type FHA diesel furnace as they do a great job at drying the air by moving the moist cabin air across a very hot heat exchanger..

Here in the North East most houses are hydronic heat because it is more comfortable and dries the air out less. Most FHA installations also need duct mounted humidifiers (Maid-O-Mist etc.) so inhabitants of the home don't suffer nose bleeds and dry cracked skin all winter long. 

On a boat, that is already a moist environment, you'd actually welcome the dry air that results from moving moist air across a hot element or heat exchanger.

I work on boats all winter long and the ceramic disc "Pelonis" type heaters do a far better job at keeping moisture levels down. When I get to a boat it is often 5F - 30F inside. I can warm the air in the boat, with ceramic disc heaters, without causing much condensation to occur. Of course when I am working on these boats I always try to completely drain the bilge first so the boat is not trying to create its own eco system on top of my own breathing. 

I own an number of these ceramic type heaters and they all offer tip over protection and automatic shut down features if the fan becomes blocked and the element gets too hot. The fans in them, like computer fans, draw mA's... I like them because they are small and can be placed out of the way of knock overs etc. because they take up so little floor or shelf space. I have one customer who heats his entire 42' power boat with them and it is very comfortable. His electric bill on the other hand, not so comfortable..... 

Be aware that with any 1500W electric heater they draw 12.5A + on the high setting. Just two of them, plus a water heater, EXCEEDS what a single 30A shore power system can handle by over 7.5A.. If you are planning on going electric a second shore power system should ideally be added to handle the massive current used by electric heaters..


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

jppp said:


> Hypervent aka "cedar breather". I've covered a roof with it before nailing cedar shake on. Does the same for the roof as .it does for your cushions.


Tried some cedar breather and roof vent products but they collapsed after use and did not want to re-bound. It lasted us about three weeks earlier this summer. Lucky for us I got it for free, was worth about that..... Hypervent and the other products designed for this use a denser membrane that re-bounds and resists crushing far better. I had the two side by side and the differences are quite a bit.

We are back to using Dri-Dek under the v-berth as nothing we've found holds up as well or stay in place as well. You have to custom cut it but once you do it will last nearly indefinitely...


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

The squat caframo style ones are almost impossible to tip over, and with main air intake on top and a smaller one on the bottom they work well. I have considered adding mesh over the top air intake so that air can get in even if it gets covered.
I always run the thermostat as low as will keep the cabin warm, that way if the heater vent is blocked it turns off right away.

If it fails, it is OFF. the oil heater tipped over is still hot, even assuming the tip over sensor works. I've already damaged 2 things and burnt myself on the oil heater.



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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

mainessail.....

When you "scorch" the air, where does the H2O go?


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> mainessail.....
> 
> When you "scorch" the air, where does the H2O go?


I was about to ask that too! I find that it does work, my boat is drier with it, but the how is a mystery.

Also to poster re: air space, that is partially true, but having a cold surface and moist air is not great. I am insulating first, then bagging the foam, later hyper dry when i can find a Canadian source. (dry dek is too expensive for me right now). 
For lockers inside it will be insulation only. For lockers outside hyper dry only.

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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

Maine Sail said:


> We are back to using Dri-Dek under the v-berth as nothing we've found holds up as well or stay in place as well. You have to custom cut it but once you do it will last nearly indefinitely...


We used to use this stuff on the floor of the slaughter house back when we had the farm. You're right the stuff is bullit proof.

I would have never made that connection to using it on a boat. 
Thanks!


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

Thanks all! I appreciate you all taking the time to answer my questions!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

This might be an interesting graph. You can see the temperatures we live within and the large difference in which these temperatures can suspend water vapor. Literally twice as much between 10c and 20c (50f and 68f). It looks to me like when you get above 80c or 90c, its capacity become infinite, so I'm still interested in the scorched air concept that Maine suggested.

Also look at the green line with the amount of water suspended at 50% relative humidity (which would feel dry and comfortable) in a nice warm 20c/68f cabin, then keep that water content constant and move the temperature to the left to see what it would have to decline to until it would begin to condensate out. 10c/50f isn't much of a temperature drop, considering how cold the hull is going to be in the winter. While the entire cabin doesn't condensate, its easy to see why bilges, the back of lockers or the spaces behind interior trim do.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

TheTardis said:


> Thanks all! I appreciate you all taking the time to answer my questions!


It's good that your shore power system is new, or at least in good condition.
Just remember that while running heaters and appliances, you should try not to exceed 80% of the maximum rating for an extended period of time.

Otherwise you get a syndrome called "boiling the frog". The wiring could get hot, and have a meltdown without ever tripping the breaker. If you're running two heaters, you'll need to shut off a heater momentarily to run your microwave oven or other appliance.

I'm not trying to turn you into an electrical engineer, just do a little simple math in your head:

You have a bucket of 30 amps to work with:
80% of 30= 24 amps safe, indefinite working load.

1500w heater. How many amps? 1500 / 120= 12.5 amps.
2nd heater set to 900w. How many amps? 900 / 120= 7.5 amps

12.5 + 7.5= 20 amps.

Mini Fridge: 6 amp start-up surge, 1.5 amps normal running load.

So, you can _safely_ run one heater full-blast, another heater on 1/2 power, run your mini-fridge, and still be safely within your limits, and not experience any "nuisance tripping" of your circuit breakers.

You can always figure out your electrical loads by reading the labels on the backs of your appliances. They'll always give you something to work with: amps or watts. A casual manipulation with Ohm's Law, and you'll know if you're going to overload your wiring or not.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

BubbleheadMd said:


> It's good that your shore power system is new, or at least in good condition.
> Just remember that while running heaters and appliances, you should try not to exceed 80% of the maximum rating for an extended period of time.
> 
> Otherwise you get a syndrome called "boiling the frog". The wiring could get hot, and have a meltdown without ever tripping the breaker. If you're running two heaters, you'll need to shut off a heater momentarily to run your microwave oven or other appliance.
> ...


I recommend a max of 80% to all my customers. 24A for 30A service and 40A for 50A service, but do you think they listen...? I think they do, but then have no idea when, why or how they exceed the 80% suggestion...

Personally I don't like to see any marine shore power cord loaded to more than 80% of its rated capacity. I still hold to these values even with the new Smart Plugs because the dock pedestal still uses the old crappy twist lock which has MINIMAL contact area, especially for the corrosive environment they live in.. When I do, see them loaded this way, I see them fail at very high rates. The off the shelf, when new, laboratory rating bears little meaning in "real world" of the destructive marine environment. This is why I feel a much safer way to handle on-board AC is to not overload the cord sets to any more than 80% of its rating...

This is what happened to one customer who thought running multiple electric portable electric heaters on-board was a good idea. Oh, and this was 50A service.

I just posted this same math on the C-36 boards and to a guy I am consulting with. We also CAN NOT forget the water heater, also 1500W, the coffee maker, the battery charger, hair dryers etc. etc....

Most any boat wanting to use electric heat as the sole source should have at a minimum a second new 30A service added for the heaters...
Still despite listening:









And another:


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Well...glad to see that we're in agreement then. 

Luckily, Tardis and I are not using a hot water heater, and I have no plans to install one. I'll use an electric kettle to make hot water for washing dishes this winter, but that's my limit. I'm comfortable being a minimalist.

Tardis' boat is 25', mine is 30' which is a small cabin volume, so hopefully running at 80% capacity will be adequate. That's why I have the propane heater as an emergency supplemental for those low-teen/single-digit days.

She just needs to understand that she might have to suspend a heater while she runs the microwave, toaster, electric kettle or whatever hair-care appliance she might be partial to.

I frequently touch cords and outlets to feel the temperature, and make sure everything's ok. 

Your pictures are very good reinforcement, but at the same time, I don't want to come across as one of those old, dire Sailnetters that make it seem like sailing and liveaboard life are a "deathwatch" (credit to Smackdaddy's faux news article).

It's perfectly safe and enjoyable as long as you're a little more self-aware than the average home owner.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> This might be an interesting graph. You can see the temperatures we live within and the large difference in which these temperatures can suspend water vapor. Literally twice as much between 10c and 20c (50f and 68f). It looks to me like when you get above 80c or 90c, its capacity become infinite, so I'm still interested in the scorched air concept that Maine suggested.
> 
> Also look at the green line with the amount of water suspended at 50% relative humidity (which would feel dry and comfortable) in a nice warm 20c/68f cabin, then keep that water content constant and move the temperature to the left to see what it would have to decline to until it would begin to condensate out. 10c/50f isn't much of a temperature drop, considering how cold the hull is going to be in the winter. While the entire cabin doesn't condensate, its easy to see why bilges, the back of lockers or the spaces behind interior trim do.


The long version can be found on a psychometric chart, go for any humidity or temperature.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Amen to Mainsail's shore power post.

Sail Delmarva: Shore Power Melt-Down

While I do use a 1500W heater, if I need more I use my installed propane heater rather than run 2 x 1500W. In fact, I'm much more comfortable now that I have solar and don't leave the boat plugged in. A shore power connection is always a question mark, compared to solid dry connections.


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Tardis' boat is 25', mine is 30' which is a small cabin volume, so hopefully running at 80% capacity will be adequate. That's why I have the propane heater as an emergency supplemental for those low-teen/single-digit days.
> 
> She just needs to understand that she might have to suspend a heater while she runs the microwave, toaster, electric kettle or whatever hair-care appliance she might be partial to.


Thanks for posting this. I was actually just making a list of what I'm planing on taking aboard and how many amps each draws. Good to know about the 80% as well... But the real question is; how ever am I going to straighten my hair, microwave the wax for my legs, and run the disco ball at the same time while staying warm?! :laugher


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

TheTardis said:


> Thanks for posting this. I was actually just making a list of what I'm planing on taking aboard and how many amps each draws. Good to know about the 80% as well... But the real question is; how ever am I going to straighten my hair, microwave the wax for my legs, and run the disco ball at the same time while staying warm?! :laugher


I know, except for me it's the electric stripper pole. That thing draws 11 amps so I can't run it when the heater's on!:laugher

On a related note, I may have saved a guy's boat from burning down today:

I was eating dinner in the cockpit when these two fellows approached. They were interested in my spreader lights and the conversation turned to shore power. The owner described a very odd wiring situation in his cockpit from the previous owner, so I volunteered to look at it.

It seems that wherever the P.O. kept the boat, they only had 50 amp shore power available. A 50 amp plug is different from a 30 amp plug. The guy installed a 50 amp plug, jumper'd it to a 15 amp, household outlet, cobbled together a pigtail out of scrap and electrical tape, and ran that to the boat's 30 amp shore power inlet!

This pigtail wire was total crap and very warm in my hands. I explained what had been done, and told the owner to junk the 50 amp shore power cable, stop using the 50 amp outlet, and just get a 30 amp cable and plug into the factory installed 30 amp inlet.

Unreal.


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I know, except for me it's the electric stripper pole. That thing draws 11 amps so I can't run it when the heater's on!:laugher


Might want to watch out with that pole, I hear friction fires are quite common!

Good on you for helping that guy. IT is insane what people will do, but at least the new owner had the smarts to think something was fishy.

Also, if anyone is at all curious as to what I've been up to in my little boat, I'm keeping a photo log :
TheTardis Gallery - My Photo Gallery


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Um...it's empty!


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

The boat or the gallery? I just logged out and tried the link and there were 22 pics there...


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

At first it said "This gallery does not contain any images". I seem them now.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Jesus girl...You've done and are doing a lot of work.


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Jesus girl...You've done and are doing a lot of work.


hehe...I've been busy! But it is so fun learning my boat this way! Also... just ordered new hatch boards! I'm a little giddy


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## Trekka (Jul 16, 2006)

I've spent several winters aboard in two different boats. Had terrible condensation issues the first winter but have coped better ever since. Ventilation is not just inside out. It is also about internal ventilation, making sure compartments are not sealed off. I keep most compartments open at least slightly, such as the sliding door cupboards and bins. I am a big fan of the old style ceramic heaters such as made by Pelonis. They are hard to find and not cheap. Most electric heaters found in stores are crude technology that was used by our grandparents. But good ones can be found. I prefer to have more heaters, running at lower settings. This allows far better distribution of the heat.

In addition to watching load levels (current, amps), it is essential to pay attention to _every connection_. The connections are the weak point where failure usually happens. A poor connection can heat up hot enough to melt and burn without tripping a circuit breaker because until two opposite wires actually cross and short there is no over-current. Everything AC electric in the boat is basically on an extension cord, as is the boat itself. Feel the connectors often. Make that part of the routine of time aboard. If the connection is very warm, either the cord is too small for the current, or the connection is poor. I use heavy guage cable and connections that can be viewed and cleaned.

I have a keel stepped mast which in the winter is a cold delivery device. I wrapped it with refelectix and that mae a big ifference. My boat has several large ports with frames get very cold in winter and hot in summer. I cut reflectix covers for them and that helps a lot, too.

I use thin foam panels and reflectix to double layer compartments and as many flat or gently curved surfaces as I can. I have big overhead hatches in my boat that are great for light and ventilation in warm weather, but are escape paths for heat in winter. I cut inserts of the thin foam and fit them inside the hatch. Cuts heat loss markedly.

I also use _a lot_ of Damp-Rid. It works great and can be affforable with careful buying. I get the hanging type in 3-4 pack boxes at WalMart, Home Depot, Lowes, and the like. Usually for $8 or so, sometimes less on sale. One of those in the hanging locker makes a HUGE difference. I also use the tub type as it is far cheaper. The refills can be bought in bulk, enough to fill 3-4 tubs for maybe $3. Sometimes the absorbant grains can be bought as sidewalk ice melter for even less cost. I place tubs where they won't slide and have never had one tip. They make a huge difference.

Baking warms the cabin up nicely, too.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Trekka said:


> ......Baking warms the cabin up nicely, too.


It does and I love the smell of baking aboard.

However, both the food and propane add substantial moisture to the boat.


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

But the cookies will taste fantastic while you get "rained" on!


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## thedude (Aug 5, 2009)

we are a family of 4 (lots of condensate) living on a 36fter off the magothy. we're currently heating with 2 small ceramic heaters that both heat and dry our boat quite well. haven't insulated yet and still contemplating the bulkhead diesel heater for times when the power goes out (thanks sandy) and when we are on the hook. i will say, we pay a flat fee for electric/liveaboard. otherwise we'd be burning diesel now.


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## Trekka (Jul 16, 2006)

Forgot to mention that a major area of heat loss is through the cabin sole. The cold water is a great conductor of heat out of the hull. I bought some cheap, rubber back carpet runners at KMart and cut to fit the main cabin sole. And some smaller runners for the sole leading to the forepeak. Made a big difference. This year I am about to do same but this time will first put down a layer of thin blue foam. 1/4"? That with carpet over it will do even better.


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

I had actually thought about that. Hadn't thought about the extra layer of foam though.. what kind of foam is it?


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## Trekka (Jul 16, 2006)

It's the kind you buy at Home Depot or Lowes. About 6ft by many feet, folded like an accordion to about 6x2. There is thicker pink foam but that is more than I would like under a rug I am walking on. 

I buy rugs at KMart because it is cheaper than anywhere else. Each store has about half the same and half different patterns and dimensions.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm curious about winter moisture and resultant mildew that might accumulate in the bilges, if air circulation is further inhibited by a carpet. Moist air, cold hull = condensation. We have one we use in the summer and have to keep on top of it even then. 

Nothing like a carpet on a boat in the morning, however. Even in warm water, the sole is usually cold in the morning. But, we have to keep it well vacuumed and, if not for the air conditioning and dehumidifier, I would think it would eventually begin to stink. It definitely absorbs moisture when we're way from the slip, which is one reason we run the AC about an hour or two every day, whether we really feel we need it or not. Keeps things dry.


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

barefootnavigator said:


> Its all about ventilation, I live aboard year round in Northern Washington with a dog that is usually soaking wet from the constant rain, so condensation and moisture is my bunk mate. The better the ventilation the warmer and dryer you will be. Try the small electric oil heaters also.


I was going to respond but this about covers it.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm curious about winter moisture and resultant mildew that might accumulate in the bilges, if air circulation is further inhibited by a carpet. Moist air, cold hull = condensation. We have one we use in the summer and have to keep on top of it even then.
> 
> Nothing like a carpet on a boat in the morning, however. Even in warm water, the sole is usually cold in the morning. But, we have to keep it well vacuumed and, if not for the air conditioning and dehumidifier, I would think it would eventually begin to stink. It definitely absorbs moisture when we're way from the slip, which is one reason we run the AC about an hour or two every day, whether we really feel we need it or not. Keeps things dry.


 When the outside air is 95% humidity ,changing one batch of wet air for another doesn't dry anything out. The bilge will be near 100% humidity, period, any time there is any water in it.. What causes condensation is a more than 2 degree difference in temperature between the air and a surface. Carpet reduces this difference by keeping the warm cabin air from contacting the hull plate, thus keep the air in the bilge cooler..


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Brent Swain said:


> When the outside air is 95% humidity ,changing one batch of wet air for another doesn't dry anything out. The bilge will be near 100% humidity, period, any time there is any water in it.. What causes condensation is a more than 2 degree difference in temperature between the air and a surface. Carpet reduces this difference by keeping the warm cabin air from contacting the hull plate, thus keep the air in the bilge cooler..


I'm not following your point about changing wet air for another. What suggested as much? I was suggesting that carpet would insulate the bilge and not allow for the air to warm and be less than fully saturated.

Your 2 degree example is not quite right, but I think I know what you meant. If air is 100% saturated (ie 100% humidity) than any reduction in temperature is going to cause water to condensate out. Surfaces themselves don't matter. A cold surface causes the boundary air around it to drop in temperature and the moisture condensates out of it.

So that said, I didn't really follow the reply. When you can warm air, it will hold more moisture and/or be less saturated with the same amount and be further from the dew point and less likely to condensate.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

I like the square interlocking 2x2' from home depot, top surface is tough, easy to clean and very warm. Cut to the right width, easy to cut around posts etc. 20$ did my whole boat and left me two spare tiles. Not too hard not too soft, designed for standing on, and one section can easily be replaced if damaged.

Instant difference in warmth in the boat at floor level, not such a divided temperature range anymore. I meant to carpet over top, but this is easy to clean, and great under foot.

Keeps smells down, and small screws and parts out of the bilge. Easy to lift every square individually for access to hatches, one of the many reasons I scrapped the carpet idea.



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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Although I don't live aboard, I do have a few suggestions from my experience in solving moisture problems in my boat.

First, as Jess pointed out, the key issue is the dew point of the air, which is another way of measuring the humidity. Any surface of the boat that is below the dew point, condensation will occur. Note that dew point is an especially useful way of measuring humidity, because it is independent of the air temperature - all that really matters is whether the temperature of cold surfaces is above or below the dew point.

One problem with small, enclosed volumes like a small boat is that ordinary respiration can fill the air with humidity. If you go to bed with the boat closed up tight (like you would do on a cold evening), much of the water you drink will be exhaled into the boat. The humidity will be there even if the boat is heated. The key is to minimize the cold surfaces that the moist air comes into contact with. If you've ever waken up in a camping tent in November or December, you've likely seen the kind of condensation that can occur.

Jess's pictures show that she is doing a good job at preventing this with her insulation on the sides of the boat. Once other place where I experienced condensation was in the storage under the settees, especially under the waterline. A couple of years ago I posted about how I solved this problem with bubble wrap, which insulated well enough that the air never came into contact with a surface below the dew point. This area is critical, because often life jackets are stored there, and for a liveaboard there may be clothes stored there. These things would be susceptible to mildew, especially under the waterline. I like the Reflectix stuff that Jess is using above her settees, and have been meaning to replace my cheap bubble wrap with it. (One more thing to go onto my list for this winter.)

A dehumidifier can be a great help for a boat that is on shore power. On a 25 footer space is at a premium, so a full sized dehumidifier might be impractical. But a couple years ago I posted a thread about a tiny Peltier-type dehumidifier that I found at Home Depot. It's still going strong, draws about 60 watts and sits on my galley counter, velcro'ed to the shelf behind it (to make it heel-proof). This year I attached a hose to the drain pan that I run to my galley sink so I don't ever have to pour it out.

As for the issue of dampness in the bilge, I think that could depend on whether Jess's O25 is inboard or outboard. If it's outboard, there's a good chance she can keep her bilge 100% dry, which will reduce the problem significantly. If she has an inboard with seepage through the packing gland, she will have a wet bilge, in which case carpet or foam over top would mean 100% humidity all the time in the bilge, which could be problematic. For this I have a question, not an answer. I have always wondered whether adding a small amount of bleach into the bilgewater could knock out any mildew. Maybe a capful every week would need to be added, since continued seepage through the packing gland and cycling of the bilge pump would dilute out the bleach. The risk could be that the bleach could prematurely age the bilge pump and hoses, but I would think that there might be a low level of bleach that could keep the water disinfected. What do you liveaboards think of this?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> ........The risk could be that the bleach could prematurely age the bilge pump and hoses, but I would think that there might be a low level of bleach that could keep the water disinfected. What do you liveaboards think of this?


I have been known to sanitize the bilges on the hard every few years or so. It takes very little bleach to do so. In fact, a bleach bathroom cleaner usually suffices. However, it is immediately followed by a thorough rinsing, so that the chlorine doesn't really sit in the pump or hoses.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

I think I get what Brent means, essentially that ventilation alone won't help much, if your outside air is almost saturated, you need to make the boat dryer than the outside air, so other techniques are needed. 



I put a little pinesol(pine oil has some good properties) or tea tree oil and spray the bilges occasionally. The interlocking floor tiles make this easy.



Personally I don't understand the use of reflectix in boats, except in small hard to work in areas. it's less efficient and not really cheaper than a good insulation. It does well enough, but not great imo.


Since the job is labor intensive, I'd stick with Volara(for continuous lengths) or Armaflex(available in smaller sheets, or a 200' roll)
which has the added bonus of being mold resistant. Price difference is not huge, online in the usa volara is under 10$ a running foot, and 5' wide half inch thick. Thinner is cheaper still. 
Both are acoustic damping as well. 


Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

Hi, all! I think the idea about insulating under the settees is a great idea, hadn't thought of doing that. My boat has an outboard, and my bilge is generally very dry. I just updated my photo gallery... I think I'm almost done...for now


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

So to back up to the hypervent conversation...Those who use it, do you leave it year round or remove in spring/summer?


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

TheTardis said:


> So to back up to the hypervent conversation...Those who use it, do you leave it year round or remove in spring/summer?


Year round. I just take it out to spray with cleaner and pressure wash.

1.It fits just fine there, can't see less ventilation being better than more.
2. It gets cut individually and I don't want to play tetris in my boat anymore than I have to. 
3. removed, it's just gonna take up more space somewhere else, or get lost. Also the edges are sharp, and I've caught myself on them a few times when laying it all out.

Also, not sure if it's coincidence, but I had a bunch left over, I put it cloth side up in my lazarette. My lazarette and cockpit lockers all leak right now, the only one where things aren't moldy/smelly is the one where they are all sitting on the hypervent. So save all the offcuts, they can be handy!

BTW I removed my foam tiles on the floor while I was pressure-washing the V-berth for paint. Left them off at night, and forgot, my legs were freezing when I was sitting reading, and humidity in the boat was worse than usual. 
Put them back into place, and things were much improved .


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## JudyM (Nov 7, 2012)

Hello,
Just to confirm on this point about the hypervent installation on insides hanging lockers and cabinets, etc; you lay it fabric side facing in? What are you using to secure it in place on vertical and top pieces? What are you using to tape the seams of pieces together? 

Thanks for all the great info in this thread everyone! Super helpful.

Best,
JudyM


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

Empty? What's empty? I just got back from the TARDIS tour and was duly impressed.


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

Thank you deltaten! She has been a labor of love for sure! Now that the winter rain has picked up a bit, I'm finding little leaks. I'm taking this as a sign that I'm finished with the cabin for now. My next but project is to remove all deck hardware, pot the holes, and re-bed EVERYTHING!! Gee... And I thought boat ownership would be easy ;-) (hahahahaha)


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

Easy? Ha !! I'm looking fwd to seeing more of your re-fit; as I'll be doing the same thing very soon.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Recommended reading:

Bedding Deck Hardware With Butyl Tape


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

FWIW

After reading this thread my wife and I pained over the solution of Hypervent or Froli. We thought that we might as well kill two birds with one stone and went with the Froli. Solve ventilation and comfort. 

Wow! Not only great ventilation but VERY comfortable. Well worth the extra $$$. We considered with the version quite a bit and went with the star system even though we have a Vee birth. On their website they recommend the smaller spring traveler version for Vee births. But when I called them they said the star version has taller springs and will work fine in a Vee birth, it did. They cost the same. We laid out the springs in a variety of ways but found the softest configuration the best.


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## Waterdawg43 (Oct 13, 2012)

well this was an excellent thread and I think it will save me from some critical mistakes when living aboard next year.


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## TheTardis (Oct 27, 2012)

kellysails said:


> FWIW
> 
> After reading this thread my wife and I pained over the solution of Hypervent or Froli. We thought that we might as well kill two birds with one stone and went with the Froli. Solve ventilation and comfort.


Huh, I'm not at all familiar with this product. Looks interesting. Please keep me updated on how it works out for you!

It's been a little while since I have posted on this thread, so FWIW, here is an update of TARDIS:

Now that the temps have dropped, I haven't been working as much as I would like on her. But I have been slowly removing ALL deck hardware and re-bedding with butyl tape. I have been dealing with a persistent leak in the v-berth. This one is a big concern for me as it is where I will sleep! I have re-bedded ALL of the deck hardware on the bow, including pulpit, toe rails, and spinnaker chock. The v-berth was dry after one rain, but last week we had three days of rain and now there is water again! Not as much, but still! Another leak I CAN NOT solve is in the main cabin. There is a lip that the backrests for my settees attach to. (you can see this in my gallery) What is happening is water is dripping from the screws that attach the back rests to this lip. I have re-bedded a toe rail in that area and stanchions.

Still on my to do list for winter projects is installing shore power, remove the captain's chair that is taking up EVERY inch of space in my little cockpit, and remove the Edson pedestal and wheel and install a traditional tiller.

Lots to keep me outta trouble


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## Thunderchild (Jul 20, 2012)

Just reading through this thread and I have not heard anyone mention the infra red heaters that are out. They are supposed to have a low energy draw and keep a place real warm. Has anyone here looked into them? I would be interested to hear how it worked out.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Thunderchild said:


> Just reading through this thread and I have not heard anyone mention the infra red heaters that are out. They are supposed to have a low energy draw and keep a place real warm. Has anyone here looked into them? I would be interested to hear how it worked out.


I have not seen any independent studies to show that the infrared are at all more efficient. Generally electric heaters are watts in and watts out, not much losses quite efficient. There is a big marketing gimmick used to make the some of the "Amish made" heaters, among others, but most of it is rubbish. Normal electric heaters are all almost 100% efficient, but electric is normally in limited supply, so that is the factor than the units themselves.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Thunderchild said:


> Just reading through this thread and I have not heard anyone mention the infra red heaters that are out. They are supposed to have a low energy draw and keep a place real warm. Has anyone here looked into them? I would be interested to hear how it worked out.


Heaters may vaporize any water into the air, but you need ventilation (fans exchanging air with the outside) or entrapment (dehumidifier, DampRid, etc.) to remove the water.

Heating up the moisture without removing it would probably make any mold/mildew problems worse, not better.

And as someone else said, electric heaters pretty much deliver the same BTUs that they draw from the electricity. Efficiency is about 100% whether it's radiant, natural convection, or forced convection. There is no "magic bullet" that delivers more BTUs than it takes in through the electrical outlet.


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## Thunderchild (Jul 20, 2012)

Thanks for the information all. I was just wondering about those types of heaters being used.


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## Andrew65 (Dec 21, 2009)

Hey Tardis,

How did you fair for your first winter aboard?

Signed,
A soon to be liveaboard in Oslo, Norway that has enjoyed your thread


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