# Rudder lost at sea and rescue



## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Stumbled on this story at the csbb forum: Viewfinder

Much less harrowing than Doug Sabbag's tale.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

CalebD said:


> Stumbled on this story at the csbb forum: Viewfinder
> 
> Much less harrowing than Doug Sabbag's tale.


Pretty sad story. The first rudder hit a submerged object. It was "repaired" with poor workmanship and poor welding. It failed pretty quickly but like the first time they made it to shore for repairs.. They then had the rudder re-built a second time and again a sad case of sloppy workmanship clearly caused the rudder to fall off completely...

I doubt we'll ever know much about the rudder repairs as Jim seems like a pretty hands off guy and very trusting of the yard monkeys.. In this case the term MONKEY'S might be a compliment to the schmucks who screwed him over...... Very sad story, but at least they are safe...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

That's a great story Caleb. One of the main points of vulnerability on any boat seems to be the rudder.. They can get knocked out of commission by stuff in the water, by groundings, or just simply breaking. As posted before, I made up an emergency rudder set-up that stows away fairly easily and could be assembled/installed in a couple of hours if necessary. Some of the vane steering units also have emergency rudder capability. Having *some* kind of basic steering option when a rudder breaks would seem to me to be a priority for any boat going more than say 10 miles out of sight of land.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

They could have let the shipwrights on board the big ship help them build a transom hung rudder of some sort instead of abandoning ship!


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

smurphny said:


> . Having *some* kind of basic steering option when a rudder breaks would seem to me to be a priority for any boat going more than say 10 miles out of sight of land.


I agree with you completely. Even a large oar or a pair of "homer" paint buckets like they have at Home Depot would have worked as a kedge anchor.


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## LauderBoy (Mar 15, 2010)

deniseO30 said:


> They could have let the shipwrights on board the big ship help them build a transom hung rudder of some sort instead of abandoning ship!


Realistically this wouldn't be all that easy. And then who's to say the new rudder wouldn't also fail after a bit of use.

In the mean time a very expensive big ship has to stay around. It'd probably be more expensive for that large ship to stay where it was for a couple hours than the smaller ship was worth.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I could only get back a few days to see earler blogs of the Viewfunder.
Is there anymore information about the experience of the crew?
Who was the captain of this vessel?

Dave


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> I could only get back a few days to see earler blogs of the Viewfunder.
> Is there anymore information about the experience of the crew?
> Who was the captain of this vessel?
> 
> Dave


More pictures

Time to take lots of photos but not enought time to scuttle?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

eh.. me thinks they wanted to be rid of the boat...


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

That boat was well equipped too. Davits, rescue raft, solar..And from reading his blog. Just seems the "captain" was too willing to let her go. Wouldn't we use a reefed main and jib to try and balance the boat if we lost a rudder? I dunno.. just guessing, wondering what McGiver woulda done. 
jus sayin..


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

From my arm-chair-quarterback position... I would have to agree. Balance the sails, trail whatever, and make way for land.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> Pretty sad story. The first rudder hit a submerged object. It was "repaired" with poor workmanship and poor welding. It failed pretty quickly but like the first time they made it to shore for repairs.. They then had the rudder re-built a second time and again a sad case of sloppy workmanship clearly caused the rudder to fall off completely...
> 
> I doubt we'll ever know much about the rudder repairs as Jim seems like a pretty hands off guy and very trusting of the yard monkeys.. In this case the term MONKEY'S might be a compliment to the schmucks who screwed him over...... Very sad story, but at least they are safe...


I'm not really a big fan of arm chair quarterbacking other peoples misfortunes (schadenfreude) so I posted this more as a cautionary tale of what can happen. 
I think that MS makes a good point that the owner was a "hands off guy" and relied entirely too much on various boat yards to fix this recurring problem. 
This unfortunate event also highlights the need for having a backup plan for steering as others have noted.
I am almost surprised that no one has made the arm chair comment: "Why did they not scuttle the boat?" as was done on the csbb forum. I am now thinking that there is, or will be, a fairly nice boat missing only a rudder that will be available to salvage.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

CalebD said:


> I'm not really a big fan of arm chair quarterbacking other peoples misfortunes (schadenfreude) so I posted this more as a cautionary tale of what can happen.
> I think that MS makes a good point that the owner was a "hands off guy" and relied entirely too much on various boat yards to fix this recurring problem.
> This unfortunate event also highlights the need for having a backup plan for steering as others have noted.
> I am almost surprised that no one has made the arm chair comment: "Why did they not scuttle the boat?" as was done on the csbb forum. I am now thinking that there is, or will be, a fairly nice boat missing only a rudder that will be available to salvage.


It seemed like the sailors were ill prepared for the voyage just on what was said. A voyage across the Atlantic. On abandoning a boat not sinking rather easily makes me wonder, did they really want to save the boat. I dont know just a feeeling. I think a more experieced captain and crew would have affected a different solution. Or even had maybe a makeshift rudder or constructed one to get then to safe harbor. Didnt appear they were in imminent danger with a hurricane bearing down on them. Reading the blog I am amazed they set off on a 22 day crossing with what looked like a very inexperienced crew.

Agree about not watching the work done by the yard may have contributed to their problems, but what good would watching do if you didnt really know what to look for. Many if us are at the mercy of marine contractors who know more about boat issues than we do.

A lot of second guessing is often done by many who are in the boating business and they after all really know better about repairs than most of us, Its why we follow thier advice because it whats they do and we all have different other professions. Because of that its hard to criticise other captains when most of them are like us are not marine professionals and have other jobs we are experts in.

Posters like Maine Sail, Jon Eisenberg,Capt Aaron, Fstbttms, I forget the rigger, are the true marine professionals who post here. We all look at their posts as probably the expertise opinions and put great stock in their views on those issues which they are experts in. I know I do, So then when I use a yard professional hopefully I have been educated by them what to look out for and I value their posts. I like others appreciate Maine Sails how to videos and have looked at all of them, and followed some religiously on my own boat. Because of his videos I have done a few electrical projects I may have let a yard professional do otherwise.

Its important to remember that the rest of us may have a good amount of expertise in other areas to bring to the table like passagemaking, boat bullding, racing sailing, cruising too.

To me it is hard to Monday morning quarterback this guys repairs or choice of who did them, as I dont have the time nor do I work in the industry and I do let others in a yard repair some of my boats issues. This also doesnt make me less than for doing that. I take on the boat projects I feel I can do well myself and that I have time for.

Mainesail said the guy relied entirely too much on the various yards for repairs. That appears to be true. I ask you in your situations, like me who have jobs other than in the marine industry, who cant spend the time repairing your own boats or dont have the expertise, we all rely at some time on these yards for their expertise. We may not have the time, or the resources nor the marine discounts on supplies or network to affect the ultimate decisions on our own boat repairs. We could spend our time working our day jobs and then do our own repairs and then have no sailing time. I am sure thats the situation many of us are in so we used others and the yards to do work for us. Its why I wont criticise this owner for his choices.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

smurphny said:


> That's a great story Caleb. One of the main points of vulnerability on any boat seems to be the rudder..


Perhaps another argument for the full keeled boat and/or the skeg-hung rudder? My rudder could be damaged if it were deflected to the side (as in a poorly balanced boat under sail) and the object was submerged and to the side of the rudder, but with a full keel I don't think the object could as easily damage my rudder as it could a fin-keeler.

Also perhaps another argument for a devided rig. I've used my backwinded mizzen sail to turn the boat 180 deg before when our engine was disabled and there was no forward boat speed due to the true wind being only 0.5kt. I imagine a ketch or yawl would be much easier to try and sail without a rudder than a sloop.










If not an argument for a full keeled ketch, it definitely is one for a self steering that also doubles as a rudder or a dedicated emergency rudder (required by most ocean races).

MedSailor


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

I'm no stranger to armchair critics, pilots do it all the time and usually the end result is good for the critics. It's not a bad thing to do, as it usually can result in people truly evaluating what they would do in that circumstance and how they would prevent it. There are some educational aspects of it, provided you keep it reasonable.

The educational lesson here is to be better equipped if you lose the rudder. I also think that the captain handled himself fairly well, in the situation anyway. He let someone know what was going on, where they were, and left his options open. He then disregarded his interest in the boat and accepted rescue when the alternative was far riskier and more strenuous to himself and the crew. He should have been more involved in the repairs from the start and he should have realized, especially after having problems several times, that there should be some alternative rudder in case it fails again.

That said, I find it ludicrous that most of you would turn down a rescue for the sake of a boat when there is a crew on board, no rudder, and rising seas. Especially after having been told your current location has very little commercial and pleasure traffic, so chances of another rescue would be slim. Would you really risk the circumstance and put yourself and the crew through that type of situation and with those risks? For what? Your boat? Your pride? It is the height of arrogance and selfishness to put the needs of the boat (and your interest in the boat) above that of your crew. The safe decision was to abandon ship and accept failure.

They likely could have survived and finished the journey, but they would have had a higher risk of bigger problems down the line. There are plenty of people who have had to do this and will probably be more in the future, but it doesn't mean that continuing on is always the right decision. I'd have done the same thing he did.



MedSailor said:


> Also perhaps another argument for a devided rig. I've used my backwinded mizzen sail to turn the boat 180 deg before when our engine was disabled and there was no forward boat speed due to the true wind being only 0.5kt. I imagine a ketch or yawl would be much easier to try and sail without a rudder than a sloop.


I would imagine that the rudder acts as a lateral stabilizing force when in place, as part of the design of the boat. As a result, I don't think your ability to steer without a rudder (or keep a straight course!) would be as good. In other words, testing on a boat with the rudder in place may yield different results than one without the rudder.

That's just a theory, though.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> It seemed like the sailors were ill prepared for the voyage just on what was said. A voyage across the Atlantic. On abandoning a boat not sinking rather easily makes me wonder, did they really want to save the boat. I dont know just a feeeling. I think a more experieced captain and crew would have affected a different solution. Or even had maybe a makeshift rudder or constructed one to get then to safe harbor. Didnt appear they were in imminent danger with a hurricane bearing down on them. Reading the blog I am amazed they set off on a 22 day crossing with what looked like a very inexperienced crew.
> 
> Agree about not watching the work done by the yard may have contributed to their problems, but what good would watching do if you didnt really know what to look for. Many if us are at the mercy of marine contractors who know more about boat issues than we do.
> 
> ...


Dave,

To be clear I DO NOT FAULT JIM FOR BEING HANDS OFF. Many owners are.

I AM however MMQBing the yard monkeys who clearly exacted PISS POOR repair work. Twice Jim was able to get his boat and crew safely back to shore WITHOUT a rudder..

There is not a single CS-36T we've been able to come up with that has lost a rudder other than Jim's boat. That is hundreds and hundreds of boats built beginning in the mid 70's and not another failure... LOTS of these boats have been around the world, crossed the ponds and sailed in extreme weather including ours. Still not a single lost rudder other than Jim's, suffered by hitting a submerged object..

The original "factory rudder" failure was caused by hitting a SUBMERGED OBJECT which possibly could have just as easily punched a hole in just about any fiberglass hull had it not hit where it had.

For two subsequent rudders to fail in a matter of days after launch can only point to ONE THING and that is CRAPPY & SUBSTANDARD WORK..... Two "repaired" failed rudders in a matter of weeks can't point to much else.. The second one failed in quite benign conditions and simply "floated away".......

I suppose my take away/lesson from this, if I was cruising in a far off place, is to physically ship my old stock to the US and have someone like Phil's Foils or Foss Foam start from scratch and build a brand new one using the old stock for the drilling template. I would probably also get in touch with Ray Wall, the original designer, to consult and get drawings for a brand new one. If Ray was not available then someone like Bob Perry or Roger Long etc...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Shinook said:


> I'm no stranger to armchair critics, pilots do it all the time and usually the end result is good for the critics. It's not a bad thing to do, as it usually can result in people truly evaluating what they would do in that circumstance and how they would prevent it. There are some educational aspects of it, provided you keep it reasonable.
> 
> The educational lesson here is to be better equipped if you lose the rudder. I also think that the captain handled himself fairly well, in the situation anyway. He let someone know what was going on, where they were, and left his options open. He then disregarded his interest in the boat and accepted rescue when the alternative was far riskier and more strenuous to himself and the crew. He should have been more involved in the repairs from the start and he should have realized, especially after having problems several times, that there should be some alternative rudder in case it fails again.
> 
> ...





> I'm no stranger to armchair critics, pilots do it all the time and usually the end result is good for the critics.


Lets hope they do a better job of critical thinking flying your plane than this as it appears not only did you miss the most critical evidence IMHO you felt the need to belittle others opinions with arrogance, which is not necessary, and may prevent the educational experience for others who may want to express an opinion.

The educational lesson here may really be to have the enough experienced crew to set out accross the Atlantic. In reading this and another report including their first rescue it is apparent that the crew of 4 really only had one person with enough skill to handle this adventure. Had he become incapacitated, the only recourse the crew would have had at that point would have been to be rescued and give up the vessel. IMHO not a good plan. A plane crossing the Atlantic has more than a Captain and then a crew
of flight attendants. There are others with experience of flying the plane to releive the Captain.

The couple who came on board had virtually zero experience. The captain and his wife/ companion split thier watch so each took an inexperience person. This to cross the Atlantic? I mean we are not talking coastal cruising here. The crew was sick from the get go. One wanted to leave almost immediately and the second wasnt far behind. Leave and leave the Captain with 3 people...not a safe situation. The Captain should have turned around and headed back then and dropped the landlubbers asses on land or stay close to the coast until they felt better and then pressed on. Maybe his rudder issues would have popped up close to shoer again. Instead he pressed on. He didnt know if they would get better, he pressed on with 3 quesy sick crew members with little experience. This is lesson number 1. If crew safety was the issue...it should have started here.

The rudder failure being caused by poor workmanship. Not sure where that was identified as the reason. I am sure its a good theory as it was an issue point before, and before it was hit by an object in the water. Also to assumn he was hands off....where does that information come from? I have read the logs, and cant find that. Can someone point me to what I may have missed?

As a side note and as far as the reports of increasing seas and impending weather...you know that contradicts what was found at the scene and the Captains statement,

The last picture of Viewfinder drifting away, lost at sea

From the Captain of the Viewfinder



> Luckily, the rescue took place during the day and the weather conditions were good," Laverdière said. "There were a couple of tense moments, but our lives were never in danger


."
Pointe Claire couple rescued at sea for second time | West Island Gazette

Even with the calm conditions found at the rescue, short of the Captain and his inexperienced crew fashioning a temporary rudder to steer Viewfinder, there was no hope. The Captains actions after the problem occured seemed ok and he certainly recovered his ability to put the crews safety first finally, I would agree. The more I read the more I understood the lack of experience other than him on the boat, and they were too far out to get to safe refuge. I get that.

So it looks from the posts that hes got his insurance money and hes looking for anew boat to continue his adventures. I hope he has learned about taking inexperienced crew.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Maine Sail said:


> Dave,
> To be clear I DO NOT FAULT JIM FOR BEING HANDS OFF. Many owners are.


I am not sure where you beleive I said you faulted Jim for being hands off. You clearly didnt. In fact I agreed with you 100%. So whats the issue here. I was paying you a compliment.

Heres what I wrote;


> Agree about not watching the work done by the yard may have contributed to their problems, but what good would watching do if you didnt really know what to look for. Many if us are at the mercy of marine contractors who know more about boat issues than we do.





> *Posters like Maine Sail, Jon Eisenberg,Capt Aaron, Fstbttms, I forget the rigger, are the true marine professionals who post here. We all look at their posts as probably the expertise opinions and put great stock in their views on those issues which they are experts in. I know I do, So then when I use a yard professional hopefully I have been educated by them what to look out for and I value their post*s. I like others appreciate Maine Sails how to videos and have looked at all of them, and followed some religiously on my own boat. Because of his videos I have done a few electrical projects I may have let a yard professional do otherwise


.



> *Mainesail said the guy relied entirely too much on the various yards for repairs. That appears to be true. I ask you in your situations, like me who have jobs other than in the marine industry, who cant spend the time repairing your own boats or dont have the expertise, we all rely at some time on these yards for their expertise*.


What I wrote is how I feel. I dont have the expertise. I dont have the experience in repairs and I think most are like me. Because you do have the expertise you dont think like me. I was expressing that many of us are at the mercy of these " yard monkeys" as you refer to them. Even if I watched them 100% of the time while they did repairs ( which I cant as I have another job) I might not be able to catch substandard work or improper techniques. many of us are at the mercy of these marine maintainence yards and technitions. Sailnet helps as we frequently get recommendations from you as well as others on reputable people.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> I am not sure where you beleive I said you faulted Jim for being hands off. You clearly didnt. In fact I agreed with you 100%. So whats the issue here. I was paying you a compliment.
> 
> Heres what I wrote;
> 
> ...


Chef,

My point was not at all to single you out or take your post out of context. I am sorry if it appeared that way. I just wanted to "nip the bud" before people were thinking I am criticizing Jim for being hands off...

My info comes from Jim himself and what he types...

*"The first incident happened between Portugal and Madeira. We hit a submerged object that took out a fist sized chunk of the keel, hit the rudder, and tore of the towline and prop of my towed electrical generator. The cracking noise that I heard, I put off to the shear pin on the towed generator as I had not lost any steering control at this time. It is designed to break at 300lbs of pressure, and the manual does say that it has been know for sharks to take these. This happened mid afternoon.

Later that evening there was a strong gust of wind, heeling the boat over, which put pressure on the rudder , loosening it from the post. The rudder did not fall off till 02:00, these things always happen in the dark. I can assure you that the whole rudder was gone, there was no "emergency stub".

We had a new rudder built in Madeira and yes that one failed as well, I was told that the welds on the new stainless steel frame that was built were faulty, and when pressure was put on the rudder, after being back winded, it failed leaving the rudder hanging horizontally , causing the boat to go into 3 uncontrolled gybes, breaking the boom in half. However when this one broke, I did have an "emergency stub" left to steer with. I am presently in Mindelo in the Cape Verde islands off the coast of Africa, where my new rudder was installed yesterday, and I go back in the water today.
cheers Jim."

*

It is my feeling that Jim was really screwed over by these yards who "fixed" his rudder and I find it a sad state of our world that folks who tend to be "hands off" can get so royally screwed that it causes them to lose their boat....

These TWO rudders NEVER should have failed as they did... We have 36 years of evidence that shows the original design was extremely well executed so for TWO failures in a few weeks time that only points to shoddy workman ship or work done by people entirely unqualified to do so...

My immediate questions about these repairs are most basic. How do you even begin to repair a rudder stock when you have no clue what SS it was made from? What welding rod do you use on an unknown grade of SS? What grade webbing stock do you use? Do you just guess? Apparently they did and they guessed wrong......


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## NaviGsr (Sep 17, 2009)

Did the folks saying they should have stayed with the boat miss this part of the account?

_ The boat was heading in a north, north east direction, *the opposite of where we wanted to go,* we were over 600 nautical miles from Mindelo, our departure point and that would have been against wind and waves. The Canaries would have been our closest landfall, but *it was nearly 1300 miles away and we were only doing 1.5 knots*, a very long time to get there. _

I have never been on a boat that lost a rudder. I hope I never will. But I've met people who have, including two guys who sailed 150 miles back to land using a drogue. It's pretty far from a cakewalk and doubtful they would have been able to keep a normal watch schedule.

Even if they were to better their boat speed and still hold a fairly stead course they would be adding, what, two weeks to a passage through an area with few options for rescue?

Whoever said the skipper made the correct call by putting life before property was absolutely right. I'm glad the weather was calm. Effecting a rescue in good conditions kept everyone safe.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I hope I never know, what it's like but I don't think I will give up so easy as stated in the Captain's blog. There is plenty of stuff out there to help learn what to do without a rudder. again.. I just don't know. I'm not saying they should not of jumped ship without a try. They were even in touch with a wooden boat sailor but I'm sure would have some woodworking skills and tools and did offer to come to their aid. Minds are often lost in difficult situations.

L1 TECHNIQUES and MANEUVERS - Reefing, Sailing without a centerboard or rudder
Sailing without a rudder
The basic principle of sailing rudderless is to use the effects of sails and boat balance to steer. You'll find it much easier to do if you reduce the number of variables to a minimum.

1. Tell your crew to sit motionless on the boat's centerline and well forward, only moving if you decided.
2. Knot the jib sheets together to make them easier to handle and if you are sailing in light winds, reduce the number of purchases in the mainsheet for more positive control.
3. Raise the centerboard by a third to move the center of lateral resistance aft. This will reduce the sensitivity of the boat to your movements

Sail to a clear stretch of water then, with mainsheet in one hand and jib sheets in the other, you're ready to start. Begin on a reach and find out how changes in sail trim affect the course sailed.

Every type of boat responds differently, but you'll find that the mainsail has far more effect in causing the boat to luff than the jib has in helping to bear away, hence the centerboard position.

You will also find that sheeting in the mainsail alone will be enough to make you tack, but that bearing away will require the combined effect of the jib and windward heel. With practice, you will be able to handle the boat on any point of sailing.

To a distant observer, it should appear that the rudder is still in place, so positive is the boat handling. You should have no difficulty in either sailing to windward, tacking or gybing.

Youtube;





Rudderless Drill
Rudderless Drill
Reprinted from "Fundamentals of Sailing, Cruising, & Racing" by Steve Colgate; published by W.W. Norton & Co.
Another drill one hopes never to have to use is sailing without a rudder. Though you may sail 20 years without loosing your rudder at sea, it could happen your first time out. You can control the direction of the boat by changing the efficiency of the sails fore and aft. By luffing the jib and trimming the main, we create weather helm and the boat turns into the wind. By luffing the main and flattening the jib, the wind pushes the bow to leeward - in other words, lee helm. To practice this, trim your jib reasonably flat and ease your mainsail until the boat is balanced and sails straight ahead when the helm is released. Then change your course by trimming the main to head up and pushing the boom out to fall off. When the bow starts swinging in one direction, you must immediately begin the opposite procedures to counteract the swing.....


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

I believe any of those who seem to feel that they could have simply "balanced the sails", and continued on to their destination is grossly underestimating the challenge they faced... They had only just begun one of the most boisterous tradewinds passages in the world, one that routinely busts up gear on even some of the best-found and most well-prepared boats... That particular crew, on that particular boat, seemed to not be up to such a task, and in my estimation probably made the right call to abandon... Or, in other words, that crew and that boat should have probably not been there to begin with - for a more capable, prepared, and resourceful crew might have gotten that boat to the Caribbean...

Hell, with sufficient provisioning and water, simply lying ahull would fetch you up somewhere, eventually... But in my estimation, the way to have dealt with such a situation would be to configure a twin headsail or twistle rig - which was the tradewinds rig of sailors like the Hisocks and Smeetons due to its inherent downwind self-steering capability, long before the advent of efficient, powerful autopilots, or the servo-pendulum windvane... Coupled with a drogue, that boat could have made steady, if not slow, progress towards the islands, at least until some form of steering assist might have been fashioned... One of the reasons I think a Jordan Series Drogue should be aboard any passagemaking boat, it would serve perfectly as a steering drogue, easily adjustable to suit the conditions...

A simple sloop rig like that CS, however, they probably did not have the gear to effect a twin headsail rig... Even a cutter rig should carry 2 poles, IMHO, to better configure something close to a twin rig, and such a prospect in lighter air is a good argument in favor of having a Code 0, as well...

I think this incident is a decent argument in favor of windvane steering, as well... Some units - like Scanmar's Monitor or the Hydrovane, can easily be modified to serve as an emergency rudder...

With some sort of twin head rig - a sail configuration that tends to _PULL_ a boat downwind, rather than _PUSHING_ it - that boat likely would have been saved...


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

chef2sail said:


> Lets hope they do a better job of critical thinking flying your plane than this as it appears not only did you miss the most critical evidence IMHO you felt the need to belittle others opinions with arrogance, which is not necessary, and may prevent the educational experience for others who may want to express an opinion.


Ha! I love hypocrisy. At it's finest right here.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

caberg said:


> Ha! I love hypocrisy. At it's finest right here.


Yes typical response, point back to be..so how does that relate to what youd did. Your the only defense when you get found out is to point the fingers back. Difference between us is that i readily admit how I am. Must be nice to be sanctimonius and thing of yourself better than that, but you arent. Your right there down in the mud with me

Just dont try it in a court or when flying your plane. That defense wont hold up

Your honor...lets not talk about what I did...others are also doing it...in fact you do it so you have no right to say anything to me about it.

Again to me, IMHO you missed my point. While you praised the Captain I have doubts about him. That being his crew appeared to be unexperienced to face a journey that he was taking.

In case you didnt notice I changed my mind as I read more I changed my mind about him leaving his vesel when it wasnt sinking. Thank god he abandoned ship, he may have killed everyone eventually with that kind of inexperienced crew should problems arisen in really tough conditions. Someday we may refer to those who venture forth thinking they can conquer all with an inexperience crew the " Bounty Syndrome"

Having crossed the Atlantic only twice in my life in a sailboat ( I was in my early 20s). Both times the experience was daunghting. The first time I had no experience but the other 5 had plenty of it so that we were never shorthanded or lacking when the weather got rougher. The conditions were fairly begnin for the 20 days passage, yet still for my experience level I learned a huge amount about open ocean sailing every day.

Part of what I learned is that you cannot depend on being rescued and that the crew and you have to be resourceful enough to survive situations either to pull through or be rescued.

Even the second time I was the least experienced of the 6 and had a better understanding of what the passage entailed, we hit some rougher weather 1600 miles northwest of the Azores for 3 days. Seas of 20-25 frt and winds steady at 30. It was somewhat frightening to me even tough we were "safe" on our boat to look around me. The confidence which I had in experience of the rest of those around me gave me a great sense of security.

Even today 35 years later, I would not take a passage across the Atlantic Ocean with a crew of 4 in which only the Captain and I had any previous ocean experience to handle the situations which WILL or MIGHT occur. Half your crew of 4 with no experience. One wanting to bail after 1 day out.

The Captain should never have left, or should have turned around when two of his crew wanted off not pressed on. warning signs should have gone off, but no he pressed on. He was fortunate that this rudder failed ( for whatever reason) so he could safely get off the boat in begnin conditions. Another point...his rudder failed before and he didnt have a way to overcome the failure and called for help, What did he learn from that? Nothing apparently.
No though about a backup rudder or plan for steerage should it happen again.
Which it did,

He took a risk, with his wife and these two "passangers" that I would not be willing to take. Borders on reckless.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

NaviGsr said:


> Did the folks saying they should have stayed with the boat miss this part of the account?
> 
> _ The boat was heading in a north, north east direction, *the opposite of where we wanted to go,* we were over 600 nautical miles from Mindelo, our departure point and that would have been against wind and waves. The Canaries would have been our closest landfall, but *it was nearly 1300 miles away and we were only doing 1.5 knots*, a very long time to get there. _
> 
> ...


I think I have to put myself in the don't leave the boat camp. If it were my wife and I, I would imagine we would make an effort to get somewhere and downwind would be the direction to go. I have to think you could manage two plus knots in a fairly controlled manner, at least close enough to get towed in. You mention that it would take two extra weeks -- so? When you leave on a passage you typically have lots of food onboard. As for water, this is a part of the ocean where afternoon showers happen pretty often. The comfort level might go down, but survival is not an issue.

Who said there were few options for rescue? This is a pretty busy piece of ocean compared to some. I think the couple came to feel overwhelmed and I certainly can understand how this can happen. But an overlooked part of passage-making is psychological preparedness, how resilient are you when it all hits the fan. I am not sure how you assess this and I am not sure how you improve it. Note, that I am not saying you can't improve in this regard, just not sure how.


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

killarney_sailor said:


> Who said there were few options for rescue?


From the post:



> We were told that the area did not have a lot of shipping, and the vast majority of sailboats leaving either the Canaries or Cape Verde had already departed and our chances were pretty slim of being intercepted by either pleasure or commercial craft, but said he would get the word out through GMDSS (Global Maritime Distress and Safety System)


I don't think survival is the issue. Sure they could have survived, but what's the difference in risk levels between abandoning ship and continuing the trip without a rudder? Is it REALLY worth it?

If their only option was to continue, I'm sure they would have survived, there have been plenty of incidents where people in this same situation have either jury rigged a rudder or survived without. I don't really think survival is the issue, but the level of risk they assumed changed when their rudder broke.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Shinook said:


> I don't think survival is the issue. Sure they could have survived, but what's the difference in risk levels between abandoning ship and continuing the trip without a rudder? Is it REALLY worth it?
> 
> If their only option was to continue, I'm sure they would have survived, there have been plenty of incidents where people in this same situation have either jury rigged a rudder or survived without. I don't really think survival is the issue, but the level of risk they assumed changed when their rudder broke.


But shouldn't a cruiser have some idea what they are going to do as a backup before they ever leave port ? These things do happen, hulls get holed or stopcocks start leaking, engines stop working, sails get ripped, masts fall down, boats lose electricity and electronics, and rudders break. Should any of those things automatically mean leaving the boat ? These are the kinds of things that have happened throughout the history of sailing, do you sacrifice your entire boat just because the rudder is screwed up ?

I'm not saying it'll work, that any backup plan will work, but it seems like we should all have some idea what we're going to do if those kinds of things happen, something we can try, right ? Or is it just, hey, we've got insurance, hit the EPIRB!


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

When you leave shore you accept all risk associated with the venture not just those of a voyage that goes well. 

Not a lot of shipping does not mean no shipping and the opposite of the vast majority is not zero sailboats. They made the decision to abandon within hours of the incident. It takes time to think about the situation and try various jury rigs. I also noted on the blog that they only considered going back and not carrying on, even though the winds and currents would suggest that going downwind would be much easier, even if further.

I seem to remember that there was another sailboat 2 1/2 days to windward that offered help. I can understand these people being totally fed up with their rudder problems and the criminally negligent work that had been done, but they owed the boat more. Just my opinion, but I think you would find that most experienced offshore cruisers would agree.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

It just seems that more tenacity was in order before abandoning the boat but it's easy to armchair quarterback without really knowing all the details of their decision.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

smurphny said:


> It just seems that more tenacity was in order before abandoning the boat but it's easy to armchair quarterback without really knowing all the details of their decision.


Totally agree, I don't know if I would be able to fix a problem like that at sea, and who knows what the situation was. Maybe they tried everything, there could have been a lot of things going wrong at once for all we know. With the boat moving seasickness makes it hard to fix anything too.

I have always been concerned about losing the rudder and have tried a few suggestions such as adjusting sail trim that I found here. I have no idea if I would be able to sail long distance without a rudder, but I hope that I could.

Here is a thread on this subject I started when I first joined Sailnet.

Making Passage w/o a Rudder

I'm sure it won't surprise anyone here to see who responded to that thread ... hellosailor, T34C, PBzeer, Faster, camaraderie, Giu, sway, Robert Gainer (Tartan34C), sailingdog, Zanshin, Boasun, and others.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> I think I have to put myself in the don't leave the boat camp. If it were my wife and I, I would imagine we would make an effort to get somewhere and downwind would be the direction to go. I have to think you could manage two plus knots in a fairly controlled manner, at least close enough to get towed in. You mention that it would take two extra weeks -- so? When you leave on a passage you typically have lots of food onboard. As for water, this is a part of the ocean where afternoon showers happen pretty often. The comfort level might go down, but survival is not an issue.


In 2006, the J-44 FIRST LIGHT was abandoned approximately 1000 miles from Barbados on a passage from the Canaries, after a rudder failure... Very experienced sailors, winding up a circumnavigation, one of the reasons cited for abandoning was a medical condition of the owner's, that might have been exacerbated by an exceptionally long passage time... They hitched a ride on a passing yacht, which happened to be bound for their intended destination - Barbados...

After arriving in Barbados, they flew home to California... Three weeks later, FIRST LIGHT washed up on a beach...

On _Barbados_...










So, on this particular passage, I think it's safe to assume that a rudderless yacht with a crew aboard might be expected to make it across the Atlantic as well as one with no crew whatsoever... Or, perhaps not...



Shinook said:


> I don't think survival is the issue. Sure they could have survived, but what's the difference in risk levels between abandoning ship and continuing the trip without a rudder? Is it REALLY worth it?
> 
> If their only option was to continue, I'm sure they would have survived, there have been plenty of incidents where people in this same situation have either jury rigged a rudder or survived without. I don't really think survival is the issue, but the level of risk they assumed changed when their rudder broke.


Well, if 'survival' is not the issue, what WAS the real risk, here? _Discomfort? Invconvenience? Having to strictly ration provisions, and the possibility of weight loss? Running out of books on Kindle, or DVDs to watch, culminating in Terminal Boredom?_

Unfortunately, this is the sort of thing that GPS Hath Wrought... Without it, or an EPIRB and the likelihood of an AMVER-coordinated rescue, these folks likely would never be attempting to sail across an ocean to begin with... Chalk this one up to another "GPS enabled" incident, in my book...

Miles and Beryl Smeeton - among countless other voyagers who have faced far greater challenges at sea in small boats - would be shaking their heads in wonder, today...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

The YBW video that Denise posted is very informative. The lashed spin-pole tiller was obviously very effective - and brilliant.

BUT, no way am I going to fault this guy for pulling the plug. I mean, c'mon you guys, 600nm or 1300nm to a destination and you're talking buckets, crew weight, wing-n-wing, drogues, and lashed tillers? No freakin' way.

The drogue would slow you to 1-2 knots (that's about a _month_ to the _closest_ destination)...the lashed tiller would mean you're hand-steering (nominally) 24 hours a day...and the wing-n-wing would only let you go where the wind is blowing. The buckets and body english are silly in this context.

That video makes it clear that these techniques are great for moving a boat over a realtively short distance in an emergency situation. It's not about making a freakin' _passage_ without a rudder. Granted, if you want to go all Slocum you could do any of the above for 1300nm and 2-3 months (assuming you had the food/water/ability-to-get-it to survive). But if you (or your crew) are anything less than JSlo, you're calling AMVER. Let's be realistic here.

(Oh - and Chef...Knothead is the rigger.)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> The YBW video that Denise posted is very informative. The lashed spin-pole tiller was obviously very effective - and brilliant.
> 
> BUT, no way am I going to fault this guy for pulling the plug. I mean, c'mon you guys, 600nm or 1300nm to a destination and you're talking buckets, crew weight, wing-n-wing, drogues, and lashed tillers? No freakin' way.
> 
> The drogue would slow you to 1-2 knots (that's about a _month_ to the _closest_ destination)...the lashed tiller would mean you're hand-steering (nominally) 24 hours a day...*and the wing-n-wing would only let you go where the wind is blowing.* The buckets and body english are silly in this context.


The wind, and current - as a quick glance at a Pilot Chart of the North Atlantic for February would indicate - will generally be taking them directly towards the Lesser Antilles, presumably their original destination... In winter trades, surely such a boat could make better than 1-2 knots DDW, towing a modest amount of drogue... Even the "passage" of the abandoned FIRST LIGHT, left to lie ahull for the final 1000 miles, only added 3 weeks to the overall passage time...



smackdaddy said:


> That video makes it clear that these techniques are great for moving a boat over a realtively short distance in an emergency situation. It's not about making a freakin' _passage_ without a rudder. Granted, if you want to go all Slocum you could do any of the above for 1300nm and 2-3 months (assuming you had the food/water/ability-to-get-it to survive). But if you (or your crew) are anything less than JSlo, you're calling AMVER. Let's be realistic here.


You're right, that crew obviously incapable of toughing it out, as would be many other sailors today... But it would certainly be worth attempting, to some - and many, many sailors could have pulled it off...

These folks did... The couple sailing the Sweden 390 EGRET lost their rudder on the same passage a few years ago, and stuck with the boat... It appears the prospect of abandoning her never even crossed their minds... they lost steerage 1500 miles out of Martinique, and yet still managed to complete their 2200 NM passage in 26 days, a most impressive achievement...

Oh, well - perhaps only True Brits are capable of such resourcefulness, and resolve, eh? (grin)

cic.oceancruisingclub.org/publications/2736


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I think it's true that some sort of emergency provisions should have been made for the 'loss of rudder' possibility, and that the abandonment, on the face of it, seemed premature if not unnecessary.

I think the biggest thing that we MMQBs simply cannot fully appreciate is the stress, discomfort and resulting state of mind of the skipper and crew aboard at the time of the crisis. As with the incident in the Bahamas a couple of years back that had more dire consequences, that skipper made decisions that in hindsight seemed irredeemingly bad, but without having been there at that time and seen the 'scene' we can never truly know what we'd do in the same circumstance. We all know what we think would be right, and hope we'd be able to do 'right', but none of us were 'there'...

I do agree with Jon that the modern era has made it much (too much?) easier for less prepared sailors to tackle more arduous passages, and probably creates a false sense of 'can do', along with the high expectation of a bail out if things don't go as well as hoped.

Wondering, Killarney, what you and June have for a concrete 'backup' plan for this eventuality?


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

I would like to again recommend this thread for anyone who hasn't read it, if for no other reason than to read Robert Gainer's thoughts on boat balance (Page 3). There were a few people in this thread who actually lost steering and wrote about what they did in response to it, interesting and informative.

Making Passage w/o a Rudder


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I agree with Jons acessment

So I have to ask for a show of hands which among you would have taken on a voyage on a 36 ft CS from Portuagal to the Carribean Captain of this vessel knowing what you do about the previous rudder problem and also knowing that the other 2 crew memebrs were novices?

Which among you would have taken a position of first mate ( crew) with this Captain knowing the other two crew were novices?

The issue here is not should they abandon ship, but should they ever have left the dock.


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## SirRedemption (Feb 14, 2013)

smurphny said:


> It just seems that more tenacity was in order before abandoning the boat but it's easy to armchair quarterback without really knowing all the details of their decision.


I totally agree. On that note though.

I dont see how hard it would have been to lash an ore to the spinnaker pole. and then loose lash the pole to the backstay as a temporary rudder to turn back. From what I saw of the photos that is a fairly well equipped vessel, items to make that kind of temp rudder should be on hand.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SirRedemption said:


> I totally agree. On that note though.
> 
> I dont see how hard it would have been to lash an ore to the spinnaker pole. and then loose lash the pole to the backstay as a temporary rudder to turn back. From what I saw of the photos that is a fairly well equipped vessel, items to make that kind of temp rudder should be on hand.


That would be relatively simple, actually - although getting it to hold together for the duration of a passage would likely be a challenge... (Good argument for having a Band-It tool aboard, far more secure than lashings for such a repair) The hard part, would be actually manually steering that boat with such a device for 1000 NM or more, in conditions boisterous enough to have broken the rudder to begin with... Clearly beyond the capability of this, and most other crews, unless it was simply lashed in a fixed position... Again, I think you may be seriously underestimating the challenging conditions that are likely to be encountered on this passage - you need to configure a setup to get the boat to do the heavy lifting, not the crew...

If you haven't done so, read the account I linked to above of the EGRET... The spinnaker pole would be put to FAR better use poling out a headsail, that's the way to begin to make the boat steer itself in this situation. Forget about the main, unless it might be removed and flown as another twin headsail. Trying to fly anything from the mast will only make things more difficult, in this particular case, you need the center of effort as far forward as possible...

A staysail or storm sail sheeted flat on the centerline would also serve as a sort of reverse riding sail, and help bring the bow back downwind when she tends to veer off onto a reach... But again, being a simple sloop rig with no inner forestay apparently, this was not an easy option aboard VIEWFINDER...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

JonEisberg said:


> In 2006, the J-44 FIRST LIGHT was abandoned approximately 1000 miles from Barbados on a passage from the Canaries, after a rudder failure... Very experienced sailors, winding up a circumnavigation, one of the reasons cited for abandoning was a medical condition of the owner's, that might have been exacerbated by an exceptionally long passage time... They hitched a ride on a passing yacht, which happened to be bound for their intended destination - Barbados...
> 
> After arriving in Barbados, they flew home to California... Three weeks later, FIRST LIGHT washed up on a beach...
> 
> ...


I remember of several boats on past ARC that were abandoned after rudder failure. They all made to America. Going downwind there are some limited ways to sail the boat and direct it in an approximately general direction, so I guess they would get there in a reasonable period of time, not exactly on a determined spot but near the American coast were they could be towed.

What seems odd to me is that they not had even tried to see what they could have managed.

Regards

Paulo


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

My sentiments are with what Jon is saying but it is possible that there were medical issues that made them decide to abandon ship. It's hard to believe that one of them was not capable of staying aboard. Fresh water and food to suffice for a LONG time could have been supplied from the ship that rescued them. 

Another point to be made here is that if you're going on any kind of passage, there should be at least a month's supply of food and water aboard. It is not difficult to store a great quantity of canned food and IMO, it's foolish go offshore without having at least a small hand powered reverse osmosis water-maker. One of these in a ditch bag should be considered essential equipment.

On boats that have a transom with a reasonable angle to the water, it is relatively easy to have some sort of pintle/gudgeon or similar hardware that can carry a small emergency rudder with a tiller that is reasonably functional. Being located so far from the c/e, a small rudder has a relatively large effect. Keeping it in the water would be a problem in any kind of sea but at least some upwind ability would be possible.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Faster said:


> Wondering, Killarney, what you and June have for a concrete 'backup' plan for this eventuality?


Not sure how concrete the plan is since we have not really experimented with it, but Ainia can be balanced very well, especially with the help of the centreboard. I would certainly be thinking of going downwind rather than trying to go back- you have 25+ miles of current as a starter. We have a Monitor but not the extra bit to use it as a rudder. There is not always the extra $1500 to buy everything. I think I could rig something to use the wheel to steer the vane's rudder, it is not very big, but it is far back. We always seem to have vast quantities of food onboard. June hates canned food and uses fresh as much as possible on a passage, but the canned stuff is there. I would imagine we could manage an extra two months and might take fishing a lot more seriously.

We had a steering cable break in the South Pacific, just a couple of weeks after I inspected the cables including unscrewing several inspection panels. The break of course was in the one place I could not get at to. We had spare cable with us and just had to figure out how best to effect the repair. Conditions were average with 15 knots of wind and 8 to 10 foot seas. First step was to get the boat in a stable situation with rudder quadrant jammed so it could not move. Then sit and think it all through, realizing that there was no rush. The repair took 10 hours as I remember. It really, really helps to know the boat intimately.

We cannot sit at our computers and pass judgement about what happened on this particular boat. I suspect the dynamic of an inexperienced captain and panicky crew were major contributors. What we can do is discuss in general is whether losing a rudder in this part of the ocean during this time of year is sufficient reason to abandon.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> ...The hard part, would be actually manually steering that boat with such a device for 1000 NM or more, in conditions boisterous enough to have broken the rudder to begin with... Clearly beyond the capability of this, and most other crews, unless it was simply lashed in a fixed position... Again, I think you may be seriously underestimating the challenging conditions that are likely to be encountered on this passage - you need to configure a setup to get the boat to do the heavy lifting, not the crew...


Exactly.

There's another elephant in the room in this "GPS Generation" argument that never really gets talked about: Most cruising sailors these days are old. Regardless of experience (for the most part) an undertaking of this magnitude (jury rigging and handling a rudderless boat for a month) is typically beyond what elderly sailors can pull off physically.

So you mix young inexperience with old fragility - this outcome makes a lot more sense.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

No we can't sit and pass judgement but the story is on the web and the links are there to read..and comment on. 

Sadly, the little bit of writing on the Captain's blog seems like it was only started for the trip. 

The few photos and lack of discussion about preparations for the trip just don't provide for much more then speculation. The "crew" was older and It seems from day one they all regretted being on the boat and wanted off. 

Maine Sail apparently knows the owner of the abandoned boat and mentioned he's was a hands off type. 

Message I've gleaned from the captain's blog?. "Eh.. it's broke bad now. me friends, they be whining and hating on me since they came aboard! Me go home on first ride me find" I quit! Me wanna go home!" (But I really don't know anything about the event) 

Do salvage seekers chase boats left at sea? It would seem to quite a catch! that boat was loaded! (near as I could see) Also, the insurance already paid? Allot is missing from this story imho. Good thing no one was hurt or worse.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Wow, this has generated plenty of chatter about what shouda, coulda happened, skills, experience . . .

Bottom line is none of us were there, a good boat was lost, a full crew was saved, and hopefully everyone with any interest in going to sea has learned that there is not enough preplanning that can be done to be prepared for the worst.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Rugosa, Yes and because the crew and captain are safe we can go on with this at length. Things like this thread tend to drive the motors on internet forums. If there were death and injury involved, it would be very disrespectful imho


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Exactly.
> 
> There's another elephant in the room in this "GPS Generation" argument that never really gets talked about: Most cruising sailors these days are old. Regardless of experience (for the most part) an undertaking of this magnitude (jury rigging and handling a rudderless boat for a month) is typically beyond what elderly sailors can pull off physically.
> 
> So you mix young inexperience with old fragility - this outcome makes a lot more sense.


OK, you young whippersnapper (I assume you are one),
I will mention it. I start my Canadian old age pension this summer (bunch of socialists) when I turn 65 and I could imagine doing this does. My friend Lew rounded Cape Agulhas on his CN 48 ketch a few months ago - with his favoured symmetric spinnaker up and he is 78. Of course Ann was there to help and she is just a kid, only 72. Their circumnav has only taken 16 years so far and they have planned the next three before returning to Lake Ontario when he will be almost 82. (Then they want to get a smaller boat and explore the upper lakes.) Not sure how many of the younger people here routinely fly a symmetric on the open ocean with only two people, but I suspect not many.

It is not age that matters, your health has to be good, but most importantly you have to be mentally tough and resourceful and be confident that if you have survived challenges in the past you can do it again.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

smackdaddy said:


> ..
> BUT, no way am I going to fault this guy for pulling the plug. I mean, c'mon you guys, 600nm or 1300nm to a destination and you're talking buckets, crew weight, wing-n-wing, drogues, and lashed tillers? No freakin' way.
> 
> The drogue would slow you to 1-2 knots (that's about a _month_ to the _closest_ destination)...the lashed tiller would mean you're hand-steering (nominally) 24 hours a day...and the wing-n-wing would only let you go where the wind is blowing. The buckets and body english are silly in this context.
> ...


Well, I am not saying that I would not end up calling for a rescue but I can tell you for sure if the situation was not life threatening I would take some days to try.

I know that can be done and I know that has been done before over great distances. I could prove unable to do that (to my great shame) but certainly I would try and for a relatively long time.

They could have provisions and water for that sailing boat that was not faraway from them or from that ship. Probably I would send the crew away on the ship or on that sailing vessel and I would take my time. Anyway with an Epirb I could be picked up if that did not work out. But that's me, I like challenges if my life is not really at risk.

Some more information:











sail-world.com -- 1400 Miles Without a Rudder

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/emergencyrudder.pdf

Oakcliff Sailing Center | News | Ker 11.3 and The Rest of the Rudder Story!

35 Days Without a Rudder | Sail Magazine

steering a boat without a rudder

http://ezinearticles.com/?How-to-Sa...to-Sail-Your-Boat-Without-a-Rudder&id=2367249

Rudderless Sailing

Rudderless Drill

Regards

Paulo


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Here here...Old timers rule


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

I find it interesting that of all the reasons that yachts are abandoned, the loss of a rudder, alone, with the yacht otherwise intact, ranks right up there near, if not at, the top of the list. I also find it noteworthy that while most spend thousands of dollars on safety and emergency gear, a relatively low cost pre-prepared emergency rudder/steering system is rarely, if ever, on the list unless required by regulations, such as those imposed on participants in events such as the TransPac.

Absent the loss of a rudder that also involves major damage to the hull, the loss of a rudder alone need not warrant the abandonment of a yacht. While one might make do with a jury rig for a few hundred mile passage, for any major passage a better alternative is to carry an emergency steering system that, with not too much effort, can be ready to go in an hour or two. A good example of such gear is the SOS Rudder by Scanmar. This system breaks down into components that can be stowed in a relatively small locker but when needed, quickly assembled and installed on pre-positioned/installed brackets. Moreover, the gear for even a very large yacht (50'+) costs less than $2,600 USD.

Not many years ago some friends of ours, on a return trip from Isla Mujeres following their participation in the annual running of the Regatta del Sol al Sol, lost the rudder on their Hunter 37, Midnight Sun, as the result of a night time collision with a UFO. While it took a little doing, they fashioned a rudder from a spinnaker pole and locker door and managed the yacht for 200+ miles back to Ft. Myers and from their up the ICW to Bradenton where a replacement rudder was installed. It was an exhibit of good seamanship and determination (by "old guys" incidently!). It can be done, but it was somewhat difficult and required an exhausting effort to employ. Much better to be able to assemble an SOS Rudder, drop it into its brackets, and be on ones way.

FWIW...


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## Blye (Mar 2, 2013)

svHyLyte said:


> Not many years ago some friends of ours, on a return trip from Isla Mujeres following their participation in the annual running of the Regatta del Sol al Sol, lost the rudder on their Hunter 37, Midnight Sun, as the result of a night time collision with a UFO. While it took a little doing, they fashioned a rudder from a spinnaker pole and locker door and managed the yacht for 200+ miles back to Ft. Myers and from their up the ICW to Bradenton where a replacement rudder was installed. It was an exhibit of good seamanship and determination (by "old guys" incidently!). It can be done, but it was somewhat difficult and required an exhausting effort to employ. Much better to be able to assemble an SOS Rudder, drop it into its brackets, and be on ones way.
> 
> FWIW...


Comparing your friends 200 mile, can-call-and-get-rescued at any time situation to a 1300 miles from land in the mid Atlantic, you're on your own no hope for help for days if not weeks is not really the same thing is it? 

Add to that Viewfinder had two crew who wanted to be rescued. How do you think that situation would play out if the skipper refused the offer of help and insisted that the crew stick it out.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Blye said:


> Comparing your friends 200 mile, can-call-and-get-rescued at any time situation to a 1300 miles from land in the mid Atlantic, you're on your own no hope for help for days if not weeks is not really the same thing is it?
> 
> Add to that Viewfinder had two crew who wanted to be rescued. How do you think that situation would play out if the skipper refused the offer of help and insisted that the crew stick it out.


Ah... I don't believe I made any reference to the crew of the yacht View Finder nor any comparison. I merely mentioned that friends of ours had managed to save their yacht but that it was a difficult and exhausting effort for a distance of only 200 miles and that having been able to install a pre-prepared emergency rudder would have made their life much easier as a means of illustrating the merit of such equipment/preparation. I do not often presume to pass judgement on the decisions made by others in an event--nor frankly my own decisions of yesterday through the view finder of today's information. It might be equally wise not to pass judgement on the comments of others without a thorough reading thereof, no?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Captain was "whipped" before he even started the trip. No passion anywhere in the few posts on his blog. He had no choice but to go for rescue.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

For discussion:

This was the setup that passed a race committee requirement for an emergency steering setup. The plan was to ubolt a pre drilled lift-out board from the V berth to the end of the spinn pole, lash it to the backstay with some kind of chafe protection and either use it as a tiller, or lash the other end to the top of the wheel (if still serviceable). This was built, assembled, installed for trial but never actually put to the test... what'd'ya think?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

killarney_sailor said:


> OK, you young whippersnapper (I assume you are one),
> I will mention it. I start my Canadian old age pension this summer (bunch of socialists) when I turn 65 and I could imagine doing this does. My friend Lew rounded Cape Agulhas on his CN 48 ketch a few months ago - with his favoured symmetric spinnaker up and he is 78. Of course Ann was there to help and she is just a kid, only 72. Their circumnav has only taken 16 years so far and they have planned the next three before returning to Lake Ontario when he will be almost 82. (Then they want to get a smaller boat and explore the upper lakes.) Not sure how many of the younger people here routinely fly a symmetric on the open ocean with only two people, but I suspect not many.
> 
> It is not age that matters, your health has to be good, but most importantly you have to be mentally tough and resourceful and be confident that if you have survived challenges in the past you can do it again.


Physical ability is probably the most important element but it needs to be combined with ability to deal creatively with broken mechanical things and the ability to handle problems without assistance. How does any competent sailor NOT notice a crappy job being done on his rudder? That's the confidence part of the equation. Unfortunately we have turned into a culture where knowing how to use one's hands is no longer important, hence there are more and more sailors who go from desk to deck without adequate skills to deal with even minor problems unless confined to the computer or iphone.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Faster said:


> For discussion:
> 
> This was the setup that passed a race committee requirement for an emergency steering setup. The plan was to ubolt a pre drilled lift-out board from the V berth to the end of the spinn pole, lash it to the backstay with some kind of chafe protection and either use it as a tiller, or lash the other end to the top of the wheel (if still serviceable). This was built, assembled, installed for trial but never actually put to the test... what'd'ya think?


I think it would break off in short order in the first following sea. Too much leverage from blade to pivot.

One thought about rudder construction: In replacing the bronze rods that hold my rudder together and disassembling the pcs. of mahogany that comprise the rudder, I realized that the design of this construction allows that if the rudder (keel hung) were grabbed by something, the first planks can detach, leaving the first, longest plank intact. The two smaller pieces would simply pull off the bronze pins (which are set at a slight angle to the force of water). There is no nut/bolt connection to exert rip-out forces back to the rudder shaft. The first wood member of this rudder assy. is quite large and would certainly permit some significant control. When considering whether to build a one-pc., glass/s.s. frame rudder, I decided that it would be better to leave the design to Alberg who knew a lot more about designing boat structures than me.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

PCP said:


> Well, I am not saying that I would not end up calling for a rescue but I can tell you for sure if the situation was not life threatening I would take some days to try.


I would too. But, in this case, didn't I read that the skipper had already brought the boat through with a heavily damaged rudder - that first repair? If so, he made a pretty informed decision.

And, kill, I totally agree with you that it's physical ability and tenacity that counts far beyond age. But there's no denying that survival sailing in the kinds of conditions Jon mentions above favors the spry...even if they use a GPS.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smurphny said:


> Physical ability is probably the most important element but it needs to be combined with ability to deal creatively with broken mechanical things and the ability to handle problems without assistance. How does any competent sailor NOT notice a crappy job being done on his rudder? That's the confidence part of the equation. Unfortunately we have turned into a culture where knowing how to use one's hands is no longer important, hence there are more and more sailors who go from desk to deck without adequate skills to deal with even minor problems unless confined to the computer or iphone.


Aw come on. Thats a bit of a generalization. You probably drive a car you cant fix its electronics. You proably use a computer, but you cant fix it. You eat food, but I am sure youd be an ametuer at growing it, slaughtering it and cooking it to any degree of proficiency for others.

We have become a country and society of specialists. And we are interdependent. 3% of the people grow the food for 97% of the rest of us which allows us to be nurses, teachers, engineers. rocket scientists, chefs, marine trades persons and sit in a cubicle. For all you know that person may be the next one to cure cancer or develop a 97 % efficent engine or the next EPIRB for sea survival safety. Take you hands on approach and put your hands back in your pockets. People who use their brains are not less than than people who use their hands and vice versa.

Ya know maybe in the course of inventing that next EPIRB which took time someone had to have someone work on a rudder on their boat instead of doing it themself. maybe they didnt have the knowedge to inspect it proiperly and trusted a marine professional who was really a " yard monkey" as Maine Sail described them. Yes it was the Captains responsibilily to make sure the repair was done right and even more the responsibility of the yard to do it right as they got paid and supposedly had the expertise.

It was more the captains responsibility to learn an alternative method of steering his boat since it had happened before, and even more his repsonsibility to not start a voyage with 2 novices, and a third member under experienced crossing the Atlantic Ocean. If his name had been Walbrigde he would have been vilified.

Leave it alone about everyine needing to get there hands dirty and sitting in an office, Maybe they are contributing more inmportat things than watching a rudder be repaired.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Faster said:


> For discussion:
> 
> This was the setup that passed a race committee requirement for an emergency steering setup. The plan was to ubolt a pre drilled lift-out board from the V berth to the end of the spinn pole, lash it to the backstay with some kind of chafe protection and either use it as a tiller, or lash the other end to the top of the wheel (if still serviceable). This was built, assembled, installed for trial but never actually put to the test... what'd'ya think?


Think maybe run the pole along the back stay and make it more of a spade rudder with some way of turning it side to side? eh.. Em tillers on any boat are really hard to use.. been there done that on my boat.. was exhausted after a couple of hours steering with it.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Faster said:


> For discussion:
> 
> This was the setup that passed a race committee requirement for an emergency steering setup. The plan was to ubolt a pre drilled lift-out board from the V berth to the end of the spinn pole, lash it to the backstay with some kind of chafe protection and either use it as a tiller, or lash the other end to the top of the wheel (if still serviceable). This was built, assembled, installed for trial but never actually put to the test... what'd'ya think?


An interesting rig. The idea of tying off to the wheel is attractive since you could 'steer' fairly easily. The universal joint would be a problem since there could be a lot of load. Also think the rudder end would sink. Wonder about putting a PDF there. Going downwind slowly you would not need much of a blade which is good since this one might fall off pretty easily.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Faster said:


> For discussion:


Considering it is a plan for a 'typical' boat, it works on the drawing board. Designing for specific boat use would no doubt improve the execution. Denise makes a good point about long term tiller steering fatigue. Looks like the pivot point between "tiller" and "rudder" is off on this plan, that would cause early operator fatigue. Fine tuning will need to consider steering through the stern rail, above the pedestal, it's doable. When you consider the "emergency" tillers supplied by builders, this is more realistic, especially for anyone going beyond the site of land.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

"Noah.... build me an ark....." BUT YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE EMERGENCY GEAR!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

rugosa said:


> Considering it is a plan for a 'typical' boat, it works on the drawing board. Designing for specific boat use would no doubt improve the execution. Denise makes a good point about long term tiller steering fatigue. Looks like the pivot point between "tiller" and "rudder" is off on this plan, that would cause early operator fatigue. Fine tuning will need to consider steering through the stern rail, above the pedestal, it's doable. When you consider the "emergency" tillers supplied by builders, this is more realistic, especially for anyone going beyond the site of land.


I like this. Good part of the discussion. Learning


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Faster said:


> For discussion:
> 
> This was the setup that passed a race committee requirement for an emergency steering setup. The plan was to ubolt a pre drilled lift-out board from the V berth to the end of the spinn pole, lash it to the backstay with some kind of chafe protection and either use it as a tiller, or lash the other end to the top of the wheel (if still serviceable). This was built, assembled, installed for trial but never actually put to the test... what'd'ya think?


I think on that passage, an NFL linebacker would be ready to drop from exhaustion after about 3 hours of attempting to steer a fin-keeled boat DDW in 25+ knots and 12-15' seas using such a rig...

Did anyone look at the link I provided to the passage made by the Sweden 390 EGRET above? A boat remarkably similar in design to a CS 36? They completed a passage of 2200 NM, the last 1500 of it without a freakin' rudder, in only 26 days... Hit their intended destination right on the nose, an absolute textbook example of how it should be done...

Tradewinds poled-out twin headsails and a drogue, people... Let the _BOAT_ do the work, for chrissakes... (grin)


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> I think on that passage, an NFL linebacker would be ready to drop from exhaustion after about 3 hours of attempting to steer a fin-keeled boat DDW in 25+ knots and 12-15' seas using such a rig...
> 
> Did anyone look at the link I provided to the passage made by the Sweden 390 EGRET above? A boat remarkably similar in design to a CS 36? They completed a passage of 2200 NM, the last 1500 of it without a freakin' rudder, in only 26 days... Hit their intended destination right on the nose, an absolute textbook example of how it should be done...
> 
> Tradewinds poled-out twin headsails and a drogue, people... Let the _BOAT_ do the work, for chrissakes... (grin)


Hmmm. You may be onto something with this new-fangled "headsail thing":

http://www.rnvryc.org/Resources/Documents/Volunteer/RNVRYC_Volunteer_Newsletter_2012_Spring.pdf

Paulo also provided a great link in which the dude tried virtually all of the methods mentioned above - even Faster's:









http://www.sail-world.com/news_printerfriendly.cfm?Nid=29988
(Sounds like their bow thruster was handy)


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Did anyone look at the link I provided to the passage made by the Sweden 390 EGRET above? A boat remarkably similar in design to a CS 36? They completed a passage of 2200 NM, the last 1500 of it without a freakin' rudder, in only 26 days... Hit their intended destination right on the nose, an absolute textbook example of how it should be done...
> 
> Tradewinds poled-out twin headsails and a drogue, people... Let the _BOAT_ do the work, for chrissakes... (grin)


I did Jon. It was a fascinating read once I found it in *.pdf format.
Typical British aplomb. He wanted to offer a cup of tea to the fellow, Alan, who had brought them some extra diesel fuel. There was no time for tea however.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

CalebD said:


> I did Jon. It was a fascinating read once I found it in *.pdf format.
> Typical British aplomb. He wanted to offer a cup of tea to the fellow, Alan, who had brought them some extra diesel fuel. There was no time for tea however.


Hi Caleb,

Say, do you know a boat out of Nyack, a Cape George 31 named GREY SEAL?

I'm presently taking her south, and around to the west coast of FL... Hard to believe she's 25+ years old, obviously sailed rarely if at all, this thing is freakin' _perfect_... Just wondering if you knew the boat, or the previous owner?


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## irmedic (Aug 13, 2010)

Here's the ais track info on that ship:
AMAZON GUARDIAN - Vessel's Details and Current Position - 9197739 - 239649000


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

I have skimmed the thread.

ISAF offshore rules require an emergency rudder. Install gudgeons on the transom and have a rudder with pintles to match stowed on board.

The spin pole rudder will work. Some friends in the 2000 Vic Maui sailed 600 miles on one. I brought the boat back with a rebuilt stainless rudder.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Hi Caleb,
> 
> Say, do you know a boat out of Nyack, a Cape George 31 named GREY SEAL?
> 
> I'm presently taking her south, and around to the west coast of FL... Hard to believe she's 25+ years old, obviously sailed rarely if at all, this thing is freakin' _perfect_... Just wondering if you knew the boat, or the previous owner?


Hi Jon,
I don't recognize that boat from Nyack Boat Club. She might have been kept at Petersen's just up river. Karl Coplan keeps his 38' Wiaquez at NBC but a fellow from CSBB named Efriam kept his boat at Petersen's although Grey Seal is not his IIRC.

This spec sheet for the Cape George 31' says that they were first made in 1990: CAPE GEORGE 31 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com Perhaps the boat is 25- years old. Will you take that 4'6" draft through Lake Okeechobee or go outside?

I know that Karl C. likes to follow your posts. He is an interesting fellow and quite a sailor.

What is with all the ice on the lifelines? I suppose it is still winter out on the Atlantic as it is here for a short while yet.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> Hi Caleb,
> 
> Say, do you know a boat out of Nyack, a Cape George 31 named GREY SEAL?
> 
> I'm presently taking her south, and around to the west coast of FL... Hard to believe she's 25+ years old, obviously sailed rarely if at all, this thing is freakin' _perfect_... Just wondering if you knew the boat, or the previous owner?


Jon! there is a Emergency rudder aboard right?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

deniseO30 said:


> Jon! there is a Emergency rudder aboard right?


Probably not, BUt Jon could make one with whats available.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Having a wind vane self steering system on a smaller (<34') boat would seem like a good backup system for the boat's own rudder.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I have a Norvane steering unit which claims to be usable as an emergency rudder. The rudder blade looks too small to provide much purchase. It can't have more than a couple of square feet of surface area. Will have to experiment with it some day. I like the idea of a simple bottom-weighted drogue door, much like a trawl door. If you could get one of those set well, it would surely drag the stern around and still allow some decent forward motion. It would also work in almost any condition. One with switchable weights would be useful for either tack. There must be a good design for one somewhere.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

CalebD said:


> Hi Jon,
> I don't recognize that boat from Nyack Boat Club. She might have been kept at Petersen's just up river. Karl Coplan keeps his 38' Wiaquez at NBC but a fellow from CSBB named Efriam kept his boat at Petersen's although Grey Seal is not his IIRC.
> 
> This spec sheet for the Cape George 31' says that they were first made in 1990: CAPE GEORGE 31 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com Perhaps the boat is 25- years old. Will you take that 4'6" draft through Lake Okeechobee or go outside?
> ...


I thought he owner told me she was built in '86, though I could be mistaken... The previous owner apparently is a hobbyist who likes to restore older traditional boats, and sell them when he's done... I'll bet I'm the first person to have slept aboard this boat in many years, perhaps even the first _ever_... It's obvious she's seen virtually no use whatsoever, the new owner has got himself quite a deal...

The draft is actually a bit over 5', the rig is a bit over 50', so I'll be going down around thru the Keys... I'm sure I could sneak this thru Okeechobee, but why take the chance... The longer route translates to more money, anyway... (grin)

The pic was taken the morning I left Annapolis, the temps were in the low 20's, and the breeze was pretty brisk... Haven't really been pushing hard on this one, but the weather has really sucked overall... Nothing but strong W & SW, or flat calm, and very cold all the way down to Canaveral... virtually no sailing whatsoever, very little running outside - only from Cape Fear to Charleston, and St Simons to St Augustine... Ran through Georgia inside, starting and ending the day at low tide, during a westerly gale that blew all the water out of the sounds, couldn't believe I made it through the Little Mud River at the lowest water I've ever seen, I definitely plowed a furrow thru there...

Yeah, both Karl C and Efraim are quite the sailors, all right... I've had the pleasure of meeting Efraim, but not yet Karl...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

deniseO30 said:


> Jon! there is a Emergency rudder aboard right?


Afraid not... The ONLY spares aboard this boat are a Yanmar impeller, and a few Racor filters... (grin)

This boat is truly bare, NOTHING aboard, no dinghy, liferaft (brought along my own), nada... I've had to bring everything but the kitchen sink along with me on this one... Not only will I be driving back home instead of flying, instead of a rental car, I may have to rent a U-Haul truck to schlep all my crap back... (grin)


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

In this attachment are details how CG designed, built and operated an emergency tiller for a power boat:
Coast Guard crewmembers aid disabled boat off Big Island - Hawaii News Now - KGMB and KHNL


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Has anyone seen something like this, designed for a sailboat? There are a number of variables that would need to be calculated but a unit like this would be easily stowed and could be used if all else failed. Boat speed would be considerably reduced but by adjusting the angle of attack, could be regulated.


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## Blye (Mar 2, 2013)

Just so everyone knows, Jim (the rudderless wanderer) has flown to St Lucia and bought another boat, a 2000, Bavaria 38 named Out Of Sight and registered in Canada.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

It is so easy to build a massive overkill in a rudder and skeg that there is no reason for them to fail.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Blye said:


> Just so everyone knows, Jim (the rudderless wanderer) has flown to St Lucia and bought another boat, a 2000, Bavaria 38 named Out Of Sight and registered in Canada.


Hmmm, I suppose I could make a smartass remark about his switch to a brand where the _KEEL_ might be more apt to fall off instead of the rudder... but I won't... (grin)

Just curious, any idea whether his insurance company has already paid out? On a boat that is very likely still afloat and intact, and probably making her way slowly towards the Caribbean?

If so, that's damn good service, I have many neighbors whose homes were destroyed in Sandy, who are still waiting for settlements from their insurers...


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## Blye (Mar 2, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Hmmm, I suppose I could make a smartass remark about his switch to a brand where the _KEEL_ might be more apt to fall off instead of the rudder... but I won't... (grin)
> 
> Just curious, any idea whether his insurance company has already paid out? On a boat that is very likely still afloat and intact, and probably making her way slowly towards the Caribbean?
> 
> If so, that's damn good service, I have many neighbors whose homes were destroyed in Sandy, who are still waiting for settlements from their insurers...


I don't know if the insurance has paid for the latest mess, but they did pay for the first two... they are going after the first company that made the rudder that fell off near the Cape Verdes


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Blye said:


> Just so everyone knows, Jim (the rudderless wanderer) has flown to St Lucia and bought another boat, a 2000, Bavaria 38 named Out Of Sight and registered in Canada.


Amazing...just amazing


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