# Aspects of cruising



## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

I am not sure where this goes but I thought I would start here.

I am looking to get into sailing. Maybe start in FL and the gulf of Mexico. I would like to get a 35' or so two (Married person) boat. I have been in the flying mode for some time. I own my own plane that I have to upkeep and hanger. I fly all over the US so I know about regulations and such that need to be addressed. I have done some small boat sailing on our lake. I am more interested in getting into live aboard type of sailing. A month at a time to start with. Possibly in the Gulf of Mexico or Bahamas. Most if not all repairs or maintenance I can do myself. I can make sails as well as any wood or fiberglass work that may need to be done.

What I would like to know from the experts is what is involved in live-aboard sailing. What kinds of permits am I looking at for sailing in the gulf or possibly the Bahamas? How long can these boats stay in the water without coming out? What are some of the gotcha costs that always are there but you never find out until you own? I am the kinda guy that does things on a budget. Fish for food rather than go ashore to a restaurant.

On an airplane you need to have it inspected by an authorized mechanic. Is this the same for a boat or can anyone do the inspections?

Thanks for any help

Dan


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## AlanBrown (Dec 20, 2007)

In the U.S. all you will need is proof of state registration. Nothing else. 

Some folks try to avoid this and use their vessel's USCG documentation in lieu of state registration. It sounds good, but won't get you past the tax collector if he shows up at your dock.

As far as safety equipment goes, have one USCG-approved life jacket per passenger, at least two Type-B marine fire extinguishers, an air horn or other signaling device, and an emergency flare kit. You should also make sure that all the vessel's exterior lighting works properly. 

Unlike an airplane, you are not required to conduct any annual inspections or maintain any fixed maintenance schedule. On a boat, you fix things when they break.

If you travel to the Bahamas, upon entering you must purchase a cruising permit, which is good for 12 months. This permit also includes a fishing license. From Noonsite:

"Entry fees must be paid by all visiting yachts and are as follows:
- $150 for all vessels under 35 feet
- $300 for vessels over 35 feet"

You may keep your vessel in the Bahamas up to three years, but must pay a $500 extension fee at the end of years 1 and 2 in order to remain

Finally, although no license is required for you to operate a boat, I strongly recommend that you sign up for any US Power Squadron or USCG Auxiliary courses offered in your area. They won't teach you how to sail, but they will help teach you the "rules of the road".

Good luck!


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

Thank you Alan,

I am looking into a school right now in Lake Superior. 4 day course up through bareboat charter. I have to find something that the wife can come along for a reduced rate and no lessons.

Those rates for the Bahamas sound very reasonable. I am wondering how much a slip would usually cost at some of the smaller islands in the Bahamas.

Sounds like if I can keep the boat under 35' that would be a big help.

Dan


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## AlanBrown (Dec 20, 2007)

Marina space on the out islands, like the Abacos, isn't cheap. The last place I docked my 30 ft. Hunter now charges $500/mo. for the off-season (Sept-Feb) and $800/mo. for the rest of the year. I now keep my boat on a mooring for $200/mo.

Good plan to take a sailing class! As far as the wife goes, if she is also serious about cruising, she should take classes with you. At sea you will be a team and she will have to have to stand her fair share of watches. Don't scrimp on her education.

Good luck and have fun!


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

AlanBrown said:


> Marina space on the out islands, like the Abacos, isn't cheap. The last place I docked my 30 ft. Hunter now charges $500/mo. for the off-season (Sept-Feb) and $800/mo. for the rest of the year. I now keep my boat on a mooring for $200/mo.
> 
> Good plan to take a sailing class! As far as the wife goes, if she is also serious about cruising, she should take classes with you. At sea you will be a team and she will have to have to stand her fair share of watches. Don't scrimp on her education.
> 
> Good luck and have fun!


If I have to rely on my wife at sea I might as well put a gun to my head right now.

Dan


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Get some good ground tackle, and forget the marinas. Staying in marinas brings you right back to land life. Living on the hook is free, and healthier. It is legal to take a weapon to the Bahamas just in case you feel you may need it..:laugher  ...........*i2f*


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## fordo (Jul 3, 2006)

Cobra160 said:


> If I have to rely on my wife at sea I might as well put a gun to my head right now.
> 
> Dan


If you aren't kidding about your wife, don't go. If you can't depend on your only crew you can be in serious trouble. You will be single handing while carrying a passenger. While a single hander accepts the risks of his(or her) adventure I would be reluctant to impose those risks on a passenger who hasn't the knowledge or experience to understand them. Daysailing is one thing but passages are long, can be tedious and can become very uncomfortable. If you're not in it together, it will be tough.


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## RealityCheck (Jun 2, 2007)

Sailing in the Gulf of Mexico and sailing in the Bahamas are significantly different types of sailing unless your just talking about taking the boat out for a sail occasionally. In the Bahamas your more of a cruiser than a live-aboard. True, you living on the boat in both situations but your location will probably vary more frequently cruising than in what most consider a more stagnant live-aboard. Some live-aboard never move from the slip... some actually can't!

What is it your looking for? Using the boat as a house or using it as a vehicle to get to new places or just as a sailing toy?

If your "Two Married Persons" means 4 people then a 36foot boat will get really small very quickly if all are not compatible and all have similar sailing interest. Any non preforming crew will soon become a problem for everyone. To some degree if your actually going to do serious cruising you will need to depend on the crew and a broken crew is a really bad thing that can occur quickly. While some things are very similar between boats and aircraft... the crew on a boat is far more active in most aspects and must be depended on at certain critical times.


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

fordo said:


> If you aren't kidding about your wife, don't go. If you can't depend on your only crew you can be in serious trouble. You will be single handing while carrying a passenger. While a single hander accepts the risks of his(or her) adventure I would be reluctant to impose those risks on a passenger who hasn't the knowledge or experience to understand them. Daysailing is one thing but passages are long, can be tedious and can become very uncomfortable. If you're not in it together, it will be tough.


You have to remember I am pilot. I take on this responsibility each time I take off. I fly all over the US with my family, kids and grandkids. It is a huge responsibility, but one that is well worth it. Have you ever seen Niagara Falls from the air? I have been there twice on the ground and was not that impressed. the time I flew over it though opens your eyes to a whole new experience. Flying to the Bahamas in my four seater is not out of the question for me so I would not think that sailing there would be any different.

Each time you get into a car you put yourself at risk. In my opinion far more risk that if you take off in your own plane. Done correct I think sailing can be even less risk.

Dan


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

RealityCheck said:


> Sailing in the Gulf of Mexico and sailing in the Bahamas are significantly different types of sailing unless your just talking about taking the boat out for a sail occasionally. In the Bahamas your more of a cruiser than a live-aboard. True, you living on the boat in both situations but your location will probably vary more frequently cruising than in what most consider a more stagnant live-aboard. Some live-aboard never move from the slip... some actually can't!
> 
> What is it your looking for? Using the boat as a house or using it as a vehicle to get to new places or just as a sailing toy?
> 
> If your "Two Married Persons" means 4 people then a 36foot boat will get really small very quickly if all are not compatible and all have similar sailing interest. Any non preforming crew will soon become a problem for everyone. To some degree if your actually going to do serious cruising you will need to depend on the crew and a broken crew is a really bad thing that can occur quickly. While some things are very similar between boats and aircraft... the crew on a boat is far more active in most aspects and must be depended on at certain critical times.


My wife and I for the most part. Mostly getting to other places. I like to visit different cultures and do not like the commercialized version. I am more of a get back to the less traveled parts. Help a local villager re-roof his hut for some bananas type of guy.

I do not believe that you will have to depend on crew if the boat is able to be sailed alone. This would mean that if you wanted to take your elderly father you would not be able to. If you went with your 3 year old grandson he is not really going to be any help either. What I think you can not do is take off depending on help and then not get it.

I have vacationed with my wife for 31 years or so now. I have learned to not expect any help but if I get it great. Some of the worst vacations were when I expected her to make some decisions and she didn't.

Not really a sailing toy, I plan on Bahamas, Gulf, Panama canal, up Pacific coast, Alaska, Up Mississippi, around Great lakes up and out through Canada. Atlantic maybe over to UK. I had planned a flight from Canada, to Greenland and over to the UK. Fuel is getting too expensive now to do it.

I am looking at this more like the older couple that buys a motorhome and travels around the US. My US is just a little bigger.

Dan


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## fordo (Jul 3, 2006)

Cobra160 said:


> You have to remember I am pilot. I take on this responsibility each time I take off. I fly all over the US with my family, kids and grandkids. It is a huge responsibility, but one that is well worth it. Have you ever seen Niagara Falls from the air? I have been there twice on the ground and was not that impressed. the time I flew over it though opens your eyes to a whole new experience. Flying to the Bahamas in my four seater is not out of the question for me so I would not think that sailing there would be any different.
> 
> Each time you get into a car you put yourself at risk. In my opinion far more risk that if you take off in your own plane. Done correct I think sailing can be even less risk.
> 
> Dan


I do not fly but I know that there are differences between flying and sailing that cannot be ignored. If you fly you must land before you run out of gas or the pilot falls asleep. In an airplane the pilot is in control of all aspects of the flight. In theory he could delegate navigation but he need not(and probably shouldn't) do so. Flying is fast and short, compared to sailing which is slow and long. Native competence and acquired skill are important in both, but the long durations of sailing, that require cycles of sleeping, eating, and sailing require patience and cooperation of all on board. It is a mistake to believe that need not rely on your crew. Flying is travelling, sailing is moving slowly while you live your life.


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## sarafinadh (Jun 16, 2009)

please also consider that should anything happen to you while you are at sea if she has no basic knowledge you will both be in a pickle. possibly a fatal one. 

Even if your experience leads you to believe your wife will not ever be "crew" it would perhaps make sense for her to be a knowledgeable trained passenger so in the event she needs to get outta the deck chair and get yer bottom back to port she can.

Additionally her mind set might be a bit different cruising than vacationing. It might not, but the possibility exists that she may experience cruising less as a vacation and more as a lifestyle, in which case her "I am on vacation, don't ask me to do anything" might turn into "I am bored with sitting around, what can I put my hand to around here?"

Besides, sailing is fun. She likes fun doesn't she?


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

fordo said:


> I do not fly but I know that there are differences between flying and sailing that cannot be ignored. If you fly you must land before you run out of gas or the pilot falls asleep. In an airplane the pilot is in control of all aspects of the flight. In theory he could delegate navigation but he need not(and probably shouldn't) do so. Flying is fast and short, compared to sailing which is slow and long. Native competence and acquired skill are important in both, but the long durations of sailing, that require cycles of sleeping, eating, and sailing require patience and cooperation of all on board. It is a mistake to believe that need not rely on your crew. Flying is travelling, sailing is moving slowly while you live your life.


The two are closer than you think. Planning is maybe the biggest part of the equation. Flying may be quick but you can still be in the air for over five hours. The Bahamas are only 50 miles away. How long does it usually take to go 50 miles? When you fly you spend the night before sometimes days before planning the trip/route. You download weather and charts, make decisions replan and have contingency plans. I planned a trip to NH from WI once going over and above the lakes through MI. Around 3 hours the night before. In the morning weather had moved in and I had to change and go down and around following the front.

If you have to rely on a crew how do they do it alone?

Dan


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

sarafinadh said:


> please also consider that should anything happen to you while you are at sea if she has no basic knowledge you will both be in a pickle. possibly a fatal one.
> 
> Even if your experience leads you to believe your wife will not ever be "crew" it would perhaps make sense for her to be a knowledgeable trained passenger so in the event she needs to get outta the deck chair and get yer bottom back to port she can.
> 
> ...


I did not say she did not want to crew, I said she would not be able to. The funny thing is she is rather athletic for a girl. We golf and play tennis, she is able to play softball and bowl. She just does not have that ability to think or do. It also is not a case of me not wanting her to learn. I am a very good teacher. I have each of the passengers that sit in the right seat learn to fly the plane for the first 1/2 hr. She would learn to control the boat just as she has learned to control the plane. The problem is that when the Shxx hits the fan all that learning goes south in a hand basket. You know that feeling when you know how to drive and have been driving for years, then when that truck comes out of nowhere you just cover your eyes and hope for the best. Have you ever been on a trip and said just stay on this road, then woke up two ours later and found you were going in the wrong direction.

Also she is not stupid she is a nurse. She can learn anything from a book, she just cannot apply it. I am not kidding when I say if I was hurt she would be the last person I would want to rely on for help. Even better she is the education coordinator at the hospital. We will be just fine, we have done this before. It is more self confidence than anything. I don't know what to do so I will just do nothing. Tell her what to do and she is fine. She does not need a certificate to do that. I have done some sailing and it is not that different than flying. Neither one is all that hard, it is more reliant on decisions than anything. Yes skill makes you a better sailor just as skill makes you a better pilot. If you do not have the decision skills you will not last long at either. Many a skilled pilot has hit the ground because of bad decisions.

Dan


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## saildork (Feb 20, 2007)

I would strongly recommend that you both take sailing instruction, but separately. You will both need to know how to sail the boat while at sea, even if you do most of the sailing work. And taking her lessons separate from you will relieve her of any spousal pressure. Husbands trying to teach wives golf, skiing or sailing are just asking for disharmony, and sometimes worse. Don't ask me how I know this. 

I can't believe that she is not able to "think and do." The fact that she plays sports and functions as a nurse says that she can do both. And nurses are usually quite adept at doing a wide range of things that require thinking, doing, and being resourceful and creative. Their jobs require such skills just to be able to survive in the field. I know. I'm a nurse.


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## RealityCheck (Jun 2, 2007)

Agree with saildork, the wife should take a few courses with out the Husband in this case for sure.

Cobra160, I do get a very strong feeling that you are describing yourself as what many of us see as the more typical vacation charter person. The guy in total command and always at the helm while other thought to be lesser (but typically more difficult and critical) duties are passed on to the underlings with generally lots of shouting and hurt feeling occurring along the way. Hope this is not true.....

We often see women on boats who are very capable of being capable crew mates but are subjugated by others for various reasons. We also see these "incapable" crew mates excel once out from under the direct control of the husbands who often don't have any idea they are doing the over control AKA Captain Bligh role.

Of the thousands of post I've seen, I fear you will not have a fair shot at a great experience until you ... shall we say "learn" to depend on your crew. In this specific area, the difference between flying (hours)and sailing a boat for extended periods (days/Weeks/ Months) is totally different. While many people do single hand, it is different when others are aboard and not bringing all crew members into you circle of trust and providing training for them is a safety risk for them, the boat and yourself.... if you get my drift!


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

RealityCheck said:


> Agree with saildork, the wife should take a few courses with out the Husband in this case for sure.
> 
> Cobra160, I do get a very strong feeling that you are describing yourself as what many of us see as the more typical vacation charter person. The guy in total command and always at the helm while other thought to be lesser (but typically more difficult and critical) duties are passed on to the underlings with generally lots of shouting and hurt feeling occurring along the way. Hope this is not true.....
> 
> ...


Thank you for all the help, I do however think that after 30 years of marriage I know my wife better than you do. Especially since you have never met her.

I have gone through training with her as a ski patroller (This is an EMT on the hill) so to speak. I passed first time with out so much as a hiccup. I helped her through the next two years (Lots of crying on her part). As a husband I thought they were too hard on her, but others seethings that I did not. indecision was more than likely one of them. She went through flight ground school with my daughter and had a good time at that but again that is book work. Not a problem for her at all. Many have said before that the husband should not teach the wife. Yet I know my wife better than someone else and can teach her far better than some stranger. I instruct for flying, golf, skiing, snowboarding, and many other things that people would like to learn to do. I have taught her how to do many things. You are still under the assumption that she even wants to learn (Or take the class). We were going to take diving lessons while in Hawaii but she decided at the last minute that she would not be able to pass and we had to drop the plans.

Believe me when I say I do not want to do this for a vacation. I would much rather sell everything I own and live where the wind blows me. I know to you I sound conceded. I will tell you a little story so as maybe to help.

I was coming off back surgery and needed some help or something. Something medical I think it was. My daughter (really my daughter in law but after my son died we adopted her as she had no other family) was over to her friends house. I had called over to talk to her and the friend just suggested that I ask Cindy (Wife) I laughed and said yeah right. The friend was about to say "that was not nice" until my daughter said the same thing. 
Some people just do not have the ability or desire to learn certain things. This is a nurse that if you ask her what to do in an emergency situation or just general medical situation will say "Don't ask me".

I know to you I sound like a blow hard but you do not know me or my wife. I think a benefit of doubt is in order. At least until you get to know me.

If I had to describe my self so someone would understand me it would be; I would live up in Alaska on a uninhabited lake in a cabin I built. I would do this with little or no supplies. Just the tools I would need to survive. I would be happy doing this. If I would describe Cindy a tent would not be her first choice, Cancun would top her list, condo on the beach. Not just sitting around though, she is very active. Tennis, golf, volley ball, dancing. Sitting around she does not do. She is just not the person that is going to grab the sheet in an emergency. She will just sit there and look at it. If you tell her to grab it she will. She is not the person who will get out of the car and help at a car accident, she will call 911 though. As long as she does not have to make any decisions she is fine. I can plan a whole trip and as long as I have fun things for her to do we will be fine.

You are right about one thing I am a control person. Everyone was shocked when I got my pilots license. They all thought I was afraid to fly because I did not. I said I was not afraid to fly, I was afraid to have someone else fly me. This is why we get along so well, I like to control and she does not. Something as simple as calling the taxi after we land while I'm securing the plane. It will not happen.

Those typical lesser duties like cooking and cleaning will be done by me. (Hold this heading while I go make us some supper).

One last thing, I am not telling her she cannot take lessons she just will not. She will love to go along while I take lessons though.

Dan


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## saildork (Feb 20, 2007)

Dan,

Appreciate your response and the history. I share your dream of sailing/cruising as a lifestyle, living on the boat, visiting new and different places.... It can be idyllic, I'm sure. And I give you the benefit of the doubt on knowing your wife. I did not want to imply otherwise.

Reading through your posts, I can tell that the cruising life is your dream, but I can't tell if it is Cindy's dream. Is she committed to this idea or is she going along without knowing what it will really mean to go out on the big blue in a small boat? Or is she resistant to the idea?

If you sail off by yourself, at least you only have you and the boat to worry about. With a non-participating passenger, you are now responsible for all 3 of you. And if one of you becomes unable to function, you could be in serious trouble. If she goes along for the ride, but doesn't really want to be there, any problems (relationally, physically, technically, any) will be magnified tremendously just by the fact that you are out there, surrounded by water, 24/7, with the nearest land being directly below your boat.  I wouldn't want anyone to be in that situation.

I don't know... it just sounds to me like your plan has a high probability of failure, and a low probability of success as currently envisioned. Just my opinion. 

Pat


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## MMR (Oct 5, 2007)

Cobra160 said:


> The Bahamas are only 50 miles away. How long does it usually take to go 50 miles?
> Dan


Figure an average boat speed (through the water) of 6 kts/hr (that's generous). Figure the gulf stream is pushing you NORTH an avg of 3 kt/hr.

ASSUME beautiful weather, no storms, wind in your favor.

You're looking at aprox 10 hrs travel time.

When you travel on a boat, cruising, plan in terms of DAYS of travel, not HOURS.

Whole different ball game. Read some blogs of folks who are doing it to get a sense of the parameters and level of effort.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

10 hours, and that's when things are favorable. I usually make it in 6 hours, but I sail a completely different beast just as MMR does. Last summer it took 17, because things were not favorable, and it wasn't an easy trip. Guest were puking, and thinking htey would die!

It's possible you need to charter with a captain, and tell him you want to sail in some snot. Do this for a week, and see how the plans may, or may not change. Get on a delivery going the wrong way at the wrong time of year.

You haven't mentioned a thing about any sailing experience. I don't think you have one wee bit of an idea what you are up against. Do you fly through tornadoes? I think not, but at times you are obliged to sail through them. You probably fly over, or around storms? You mention sailing through the canal, and up to Alaska. You may very well be sailing in storms lasting days.

You need a serious reality check. You need to humble yourself just a wee bit, and take some lessons. Just because you can fly. That doesn't mean you can sail. Keep us posted on your progress. It's not the first time we on the forums have read this kind of strategy. Unfortunately these are usually the ones picked up by freighters, because they want to go home......*i2f*


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## dave6330 (Aug 16, 2006)

Dan,

I too have a dream of sailing away but I couldn't (and wouldn't) imagine doing so without the willing support, help and companionship of my wife. Sailing started out as MY dream but as the years have gone by, SHE is possibly even more passionate about it than I am. During our recent crossing of the Gulf of Alaska, she stood her own watches at the helm alone and WE are better (far better) for the experience. NOW we KNOW that cruising is not only possible for us, but something we can ENJOY together.

Luck to you and yours.

Dave


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Cobra160 said:


> Thank you for all the help, I do however think that after 30 years of marriage I know my wife better than you do. Especially since you have never met her.
> 
> I have gone through training with her as a ski patroller (This is an EMT on the hill) so to speak. I passed first time with out so much as a hiccup. I helped her through the next two years (Lots of crying on her part). As a husband I thought they were too hard on her, but others seethings that I did not. indecision was more than likely one of them. She went through flight ground school with my daughter and had a good time at that but again that is book work. Not a problem for her at all. Many have said before that the husband should not teach the wife. Yet I know my wife better than someone else and can teach her far better than some stranger. I instruct for flying, golf, skiing, snowboarding, and many other things that people would like to learn to do. I have taught her how to do many things. You are still under the assumption that she even wants to learn (Or take the class). We were going to take diving lessons while in Hawaii but she decided at the last minute that she would not be able to pass and we had to drop the plans.
> 
> ...


What kind of money are you proposing for your boat? I would probably not opt for something under 35. I feel that your wife in particular will want something nice and comfortable (and maybe a bit luxurious). Regardless of whether she particpates, learns to sail, commands the boat, or whatever, if momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. So get something so that it will fit her lifestyle as much as yours.

I single all the time while Kris takes care of the kids. Difference being that she knows the boat really well and can get here-there without me. If you can tell her what to do (hold this course, using your example), you will be fine most of the time. Outfit the boat for a single-hand, with items like autopilot, radar, chartplotter, etc.

Also, as you ahve grandkids, should you want to maintain a shoreside connection, get an SSB with sailmail. That is a long discussion, but remember that on the water, you lose VHF and mobile phone ability about 20 nm offshore (depending on your area).

You can plan on her not participating, but you might just find she really gets into this and becomes very intersted in it. If not, at least having the company will be good for you (assuming you keep her comfortable).

If you can give some idea of budget, etc, maybe we can help give you our opinions on a boat that might be suitable.

- CD


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

As it stands right now I have a Bellanca Viking 4 place plane. This is a fast get there type of plane retractable gear. It is worth around 40,000.00 I am going to first try and trade it to someone who is sailing but is tired of it and wants something new. I get the best deal this way, it has worked for me in the past. Failing that I can just sell it and buy a boat. I still have another plane that is not worth as much but may be easier to sell. One of those LSA types that are all the rage. Either way I would look for something that needs some work. I would rather have a better boat that needs work than a not so good boat that is ready to sail. I like setting things up the way I want them and this works better if you are not throwing new stuff away.

This should not be that hard to understand. It is not that I plan on her not helping. It is that I am not going to depend on it. This is two different things. In the airplane world Pilot needed vs Pilot and co-pilot needed.

We live right by Lake Superior so we will most likely start there. I do have a 26' (Like a Catalina) that I could start out on. But it is more of a camper than a motorhome. By the way we did a lot of motor-homing raising the kids, not the big 48' ones either.

I ordered three books that should be here in a few days all by the same author. 25 best small boats or something like that and things you should know before it's too late or something like that. It is on another thread.

I looked into sailboats earlier in my life when I really wanted to sail to the UK for retirement. I was looking at Bristal's I think it was. Good looking older boats, full keel. I learned to use the interent boards to find out more info. This was not available back then. I also learned that there are so many things that you do not think of when getting into something new. Buying a plane is the easy part. I went from no pilots license to airplane mechanic just to stay in the air.

Dan


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

MMR said:


> Figure an average boat speed (through the water) of 6 kts/hr (that's generous). Figure the gulf stream is pushing you NORTH an avg of 3 kt/hr.
> 
> ASSUME beautiful weather, no storms, wind in your favor.
> 
> ...


WI to FL 1100 miles give or take. 14 hrs in a 172. 11 in the Cherokee six around 18 hrs in a 150. Days not hrs, this is not counting the stop-overs because of weather. I have done it in all three planes. Each one was different. Each one had to be planned different. In a plane you have to figure in the wind because you are flying in it. If it is going against you you loose that much speed regardless how fast the instrument says you are going. On the second trip in the 150 I delivered to FL I was going 35 mph over the ground at some points. You sit in a 150 for 18 hrs then tell me you would not rather be on a 35' boat. Getting there is half the fun.

Dan


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

saildork said:


> Dan,
> 
> Appreciate your response and the history. I share your dream of sailing/cruising as a lifestyle, living on the boat, visiting new and different places.... It can be idyllic, I'm sure. And I give you the benefit of the doubt on knowing your wife. I did not want to imply otherwise.
> 
> ...


A little more history then,

When I got my pilot license I did not ask her if she wanted to go flying I wanted to learn to fly. Our first trip was to visit her mother not far 170 miles took 3/4 hr. Second trip was to FL I think 3rd to NH over Niagara Falls. She had said once after words something to the tune of "I sure do a lot of fun things with you". Boggles her mind that someone can do so many things. She had no dream of flying before we started. Now she said, You are not going to sell the plane are you? "Well, yes dear but I have others". And I can always build another one.

Side note; her mother had never been out of Jackson County WI until I met her. We took her to the edges of the US. She saw things that she never would have seen. I doubt she would have ever got out of Jackson County. Was this her dream, I doubt it. Did she have a good time, I know she did. I have pictures of her in a swimming pool in Nashville Hanging on the wall in her living room. Each time she sees it she says I cannot believe I did that with a big smile on her face. Picture an old lady in a rocking chair then picture her walking across a covered bridge in Vermont. We took her to Ellis Island to see where her mother came through. She has been to Disneyland and Disneyworld. Yellowstone and Yosemite. The Grand Canyon. San Francisco. How many grandmas dream of sitting in a bar at Cheers in Boston and having a drink.

If Cindy does not like it an airline ticket will get her back home from almost anywhere. She has followed me all over the US and had a great time so far. I see nothing that should change that.

Dan


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Cobra160 said:


> As it stands right now I have a Bellanca Viking 4 place plane. This is a fast get there type of plane retractable gear. It is worth around 40,000.00 I am going to first try and trade it to someone who is sailing but is tired of it and wants something new. I get the best deal this way, it has worked for me in the past. Failing that I can just sell it and buy a boat. I still have another plane that is not worth as much but may be easier to sell. One of those LSA types that are all the rage. Either way I would look for something that needs some work. I would rather have a better boat that needs work than a not so good boat that is ready to sail. I like setting things up the way I want them and this works better if you are not throwing new stuff away.
> 
> This should not be that hard to understand. It is not that I plan on her not helping. It is that I am not going to depend on it. This is two different things. In the airplane world Pilot needed vs Pilot and co-pilot needed.
> 
> ...


Dan, this should not be too hard to understand either, but I am not questioning how you will deal with your wife. You know your wife better than anyone. I was merely mentioning that she may come to love sailing. Many spouses do. I said this as some hope of encouragement to you, not questioning your relationship. The realtionship between you and your spouse is your business.

Your original questions about what it is like as a live aboard is pretty cut and dry: it is what you make of it. It is not easy, but can be beautiful or it can really suck. If you have lived aboard in a motor home, you will be somewhat accustomed to the lifestyle, but the distinct difference is that you can hop off your motor home and take a walk. That is a lot more diofficult on a boat for obvious reasons. Also, when your motor home has a problem, you can stop and fix it. Those same issues can be serious if not fatal on a boat.

$40,000 will limit your boat selection. You said that you would "rather have a better boat that needs work than a worse boat that is ready to sail". I am not sure I understand that sentence. The better boat will be ready to sail, the worse boat will be unseaworthy or need a lot of elbow grease to make it a good liveabaord. You do sound like the type of person that is not afraid to get your hands dirty (and probably enjoys it), but remember that like airplanes, boats have very specific ways of doing things for safety of vessel and crew. I would compare working on a boat much more to working on an airplane than a house or motor home.

My suggestion about the boat purchase was that since you are staying what appears to be fairly coastal, buy a boat that is comfortable and you and your wife would enjoy. I would also urge you to spend more money on buying a boat that is in great shape and taken very good care of than spending less money on a boat that needs a lot of work. I would guess that like an airplane, getting a good foundation is imperative. Don't worry, you could buy a brand new boat and still spend countless hours working on her getting her ready.

I hope some of this helps.

- CD


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## mccary (Feb 24, 2002)

Cobra160 said:


> If I have to rely on my wife at sea I might as well put a gun to my head right now.
> 
> Dan


I feel so sorry for you Dan. My wife is as competent sailor as I am. Sure, she doesn't have the strength I have, but she is capable at sailing the boat. She is half the reason I enjoy sailing so much.


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

Thanks CD,

My comment about the boat was just about as you described it. A better base to start with is better than a sailing boat that will never be a solid performer even with more work.

You may not be able to get out and walk, but no reason you cannot get out and swim. Now in a plane you have little choice unless you have a chute. Keep in mind 8 hrs in a plane shoulder to shoulder. 8 hrs in a boat I'll be up on deck, I'll be down below, I'll go for a swim, I'm going to row the rest of the way.

I have learned so far to look for a boat with less space up on deck and more space down below? In other words not a six person sit up on deck looking at the waves kinda boat. More of a single or double cockpit. Large holding tanks for waste, water, and fuel.

By the way mention to a pilot friend you want to go 1000 miles in a 150 with another person. He will tell you no way you can do it.

Dan


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

mccary said:


> I feel so sorry for you Dan. My wife is as competent sailor as I am. Sure, she doesn't have the strength I have, but she is capable at sailing the boat. She is half the reason I enjoy sailing so much.


Don't feel sorry for me, plenty of other people out there to feel sorry for. I have it great, I have a wife that does not complain too much, likes to do almost everything I do. Will let me do anything I want to try. If she doesn't to want to try something she has no problem letting me go a head and do it anyway. I give up very little to be with her. My best friend HAD a wife that you could depend on to get you out of the soup if needed. He was miserable, she was strong willed and wanted to do things her way, he was just as strong willed and wanted things his way. The thing you guys are not understanding is that I am happy and plenty satisfied. It works great for me and it works great for her. I like being in charge, she does not. What more can you ask for.

Saying I would not have any fun or would not like the trip with my wife is like saying that I would not like the same trip with my six year old granddaughter. I would like the trip with her even more, I love to show kids new things. Ever taken a kid flying and let them take the yoke. Priceless! Yet you cannot count on them getting you down if something went wrong. All you can do is plan for the best outcome. I am not planning on racing around the world where you have to go or else. I will most likely be within days of a port. I have capabilities to just call in the guard if needed.

Dan


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Cobra, how about a little more detail about your plans and less of the airplane analogies? What really are your requirements? Is it under 36 feet (to get the cost break in the ?). Do you want to be able to sail seven days (one week) before land falls or is it between ports (for replenishment). Here in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com







Bahamas</ST1







<ST1California</ST1</st1:State>, $40K is only going to get you an older, mid thirty foot boat that will need at least another $20K or so to get it cruise able. Most people out here sell their houses in order to buy a cruiser. My wife is fond of saying that the boat shrinks a foot for every week you are aboard. When we sail up and down the coast, our forward and aft cabins pretty much become unusable as living spaces and we hot bunk in the sea berths in the main saloon. Once in harbor, we shift gear around and make the boat much more comfortable. Getting out and swimming around the boat at sea makes about as much sense as stepping out of your airplane without a parachute - you may want to rethink the idea of your wife not being able to sail the boat so she can rescue you and save your life. Most cruisers spend more days in harbor than they do sailing so don't discount larger cockpits and more comfortable cabins. There is a reason that catamarans are so popular in the <ST1Caribbean</ST1. Last year on the way to <st1:State w:st="on"><ST1Hawaii</ST1</st1:State>, we used a little more than a gallon per person per day of water. This is really tight and you should consider 2-2 ½ gallons per person per day in the tropics. Multiply by crew size and number of days between replenishing and you can figure out your desired tank sizes. Don't worry about waste tank sizes - that is more important in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><ST1USA</ST1</st1:country-region>. You will be pumping over the side while at sea.


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

Well again my plans are to sail around Great Lakes to start. Maybe next FL. Trip to the Bahamas is within my reach I think. Throughout the gulf is also do-able. I have always wanted to go through the panama canal. I also used to live in CA so going up the coast would be interesting. Spending a summer in AK if not two or three. Dry dock the boat during winter. Ultimately sailing over to the UK would be great. Sailing down to the Virgin Islands also would be something I would consider.

I am thinking more in the line of sailing to the Bahamas or the like and renting a hut for a couple of weeks. Finding an Island with no one on it and just camping out. Docking in a bay and spending the whole day ashore coming back to the boat to sleep. Spending a week on the boat at sea I see no problem with.

Most of the vacations we have taken are not to anywhere but going to somewhere. The trip is not a destination but an adventure getting there. Breakdowns were the cause of some of our best vacations.

The other nice thing a bout Cindy is she is not a take the kitchen sink along type like my daughter. One little small bag is all she ever takes.

Comments like the 35' length is what I was looking for. Also Once at sea you can dump over the side. Things that one would not generally know about being out of the US. Where you can have a gun was also helpful. That you get a free fishing license again also helpful.

I really do not need anymore "your wife needs to be able to sail help". She does not have a pilots license yet she is able to fly the plane just fine.

Rules one might not know about foreign regulations, permits, "you are not going to catch any fish to eat". Don't eat that kind of fish. You are more likely to get hit by pirates if you do this.

Thanks for the continued help

Dan


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## CaptFoolhardy (Sep 5, 2009)

Hi Dan,

While there are a number of areas where sailing/cruising is similar to flying I think you will find that there are at least as many areas where they are completely different.

Some of the things that you have written in your posts seem to indicate that while you may not be new to sailing you are VERY new to the idea of living aboard, cruising and voyaging under sail. Before you jump in the deep end I would suggest that you and your wife do some more research, take a course or two and maybe do some chartering. Then you can evaluate if this is the life for you or not.

The books that you mentioned I believe are by John Vigor. John is a recognized authority on cruising and sailboat voyaging and you will do well to read his books. Also read Nigel Calder, Beth Leonard, John Rousmaniere, Lin and Larry Pardy and Steve and Linda Dashew. For boat maintenance: Don Casey is the go-to guy.

Please forgive me, I know you said "no more", but I feel I must address the issue of your wife's sailing abilities. Virtually anyone you ask who is actually out there doing it (couples cruising that is) will tell you that every aspect of sailing the boat must be able to be accomplished by the least experienced crew member. Many people have given you this very advise and you have argued against it. 

You came here seeking advise from the experts regarding your cruising plans. Does it mean nothing to you that the one thing that nearly everyone latched onto was this very idea (something that you mentioned in a rather offhand manner, by the way)? 

My own cruising plans are still in the dream stage as well so I am far from an expert on the subject, but I have educated myself enough to know that this is a HUGE red flag. If you're going to ignore the advise you get on this subject, why would anyone want to offer you advise on other questions?

If the two of you are going to go cruising together, both of you need to be able to handle the boat alone. And I don't mean, "Honey, can you please take the wheel while I go make myself a sandwich?", I mean, "Honey, I've fallen overboard. Can you turn the boat around and come get me?" or "THUNK!, Honey, I'm unconscious because the boom hit me in the head in an accidental gybe. Can you take down all the sails so that we don't plow into every boat in this crowded anchorage?". Ultimately, you owe it to her to make sure that she can handle these situations because HER life may depend on it one day.

Regards,
Bob


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

Dan, Do it. See what happens,- your experience as as resourceful and independant pilot or captain will allow you to make the prudent choices. I doubt that you would fly to Barbados to move upon a sloop that you bought sight-unseen online and head for Spain! Make the approach,- move onto the boat,- take some short cruises. Allow it to happen without great resistance,- If it "flys", all the better. If not, you don't need to set yourself up for a crash landing! 'take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

CaptFoolhardy said:


> Hi Dan,
> 
> While there are a number of areas where sailing/cruising is similar to flying I think you will find that there are at least as many areas where they are completely different.
> 
> ...


So what you are telling me is not to go, if my wife cannot sail the boat alone. Fair enough. I guess I will not be able to go. What you are also saying is I should not go with my grand daughter. Fair enough, I will not take her either. Now I have also heard on this board that a good way to get started is to charter a boat and hire a captain and sail that way. How does that work if the least experienced person is my wife and is not able to handle the boat? I see what you are saying, but I think that is a decision that is my wife's. If she does not want to go to a class but still would like to sail with me am I supposed to tell her NO. You can only go if you can sail the boat alone.

I would take this information more to hart if it was said that it is nearly impossible to sail alone. I am starting out slow. I am sailing in the Great lakes first. I am more than likely sailing down the Mississippi to get to the gulf. I can see sailing down though FL keys also. I see a trip to the Bahamas as a short out of sight cruise that will give a lot of indication on how things can progress from there. I am not leaving tomorrow. I have a 26 foot day sailer that I can use on the GL until I get outfitted with a cruising boat. I also will be able to charter a larger boat on the GL because that is where I will be taking my classes.

It is not that I am not listening. Everyone makes it seem like I am not allowing my wife to take classes. If she would like to take classes she is more than welcome to. She just does not want to. Then after taking classes are you saying that if she was not granted a charter permit I should not take her along? That to me is just crazy, she has the right to enjoy a trip out at sea whether she can control the boat or not. Who knows one trip on the GL and she may not want to go anyway.

Dan


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

CaptainForce said:


> Dan, Do it. See what happens,- your experience as as resourceful and independant pilot or captain will allow you to make the prudent choices. I doubt that you would fly to Barbados to move upon a sloop that you bought sight-unseen online and head for Spain! Make the approach,- move onto the boat,- take some short cruises. Allow it to happen without great resistance,- If it "flys", all the better. If not, you don't need to set yourself up for a crash landing! 'take care and joy, Aythya crew


Thank You and My wife thanks you.

On a side note I did go down to OK and purchase a 172 sight-unseen and flew it home to WI. I also bought a Viking sight-unseen and flew it home to WI. I just planned it well. When I was going to fly over to the Bahamas I was going to go with a group of other flyers around fifteen planes. The way it was to work if anyone had trouble one plane would stay with the troubled plane until help arrived. I am not stupid!

Dan


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

Cobra160 said:


> *So what you are telling me is not to go, if my wife cannot sail the boat alone. Fair enough. I guess I will not be able to go. What you are also saying is I should not go with my grand daughter. Fair enough, I will not take her either. Now I have also heard on this board that a good way to get started is to charter a boat and hire a captain and sail that way. How does that work if the least experienced person is my wife and is not able to handle the boat? I see what you are saying, but I think that is a decision that is my wife's. If she does not want to go to a class but still would like to sail with me am I supposed to tell her NO. You can only go if you can sail the boat alone.*
> I would take this information more to hart if it was said that it is nearly impossible to sail alone. *I am starting out slow*. I am sailing in the Great lakes first. I am more than likely sailing down the Mississippi to get to the gulf. I can see sailing down though FL keys also. I see a trip to the Bahamas as a short out of sight cruise that will give a lot of indication on how things can progress from there. I am not leaving tomorrow. I have a 26 foot day sailer that I can use on the GL until I get outfitted with a cruising boat. I also will be able to charter a larger boat on the GL because that is where I will be taking my classes.
> 
> It is not that I am not listening. Everyone makes it seem like I am not allowing my wife to take classes. If she would like to take classes she is more than welcome to. She just does not want to. Then after taking classes are you saying that if she was not granted a charter permit I should not take her along? That to me is just crazy, she has the right to enjoy a trip out at sea whether she can control the boat or not. Who knows one trip on the GL and she may not want to go anyway.
> ...


I love that first paragraph. 
Very observant of you.

In the second......................

Go for it man. Get a boat (now is a great time) and practice with it.

Go sailing.


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## CaptFoolhardy (Sep 5, 2009)

Cobra160 said:


> So what you are telling me is not to go, if my wife cannot sail the boat alone. Fair enough. I guess I will not be able to go. What you are also saying is I should not go with my grand daughter. Fair enough, I will not take her either. Now I have also heard on this board that a good way to get started is to charter a boat and hire a captain and sail that way. How does that work if the least experienced person is my wife and is not able to handle the boat? I see what you are saying, but I think that is a decision that is my wife's. If she does not want to go to a class but still would like to sail with me am I supposed to tell her NO. You can only go if you can sail the boat alone.
> 
> I would take this information more to hart if it was said that it is nearly impossible to sail alone. I am starting out slow. I am sailing in the Great lakes first. I am more than likely sailing down the Mississippi to get to the gulf. I can see sailing down though FL keys also. I see a trip to the Bahamas as a short out of sight cruise that will give a lot of indication on how things can progress from there. I am not leaving tomorrow. I have a 26 foot day sailer that I can use on the GL until I get outfitted with a cruising boat. I also will be able to charter a larger boat on the GL because that is where I will be taking my classes.
> 
> ...


OK, that clarifies things for me a little bit. It sounded to me as though you were excluding her from the learning process because you don't trust her judgement. Sorry if I misunderstood. If she would rather just enjoy the process as a passenger that's fair enough.

My comments were meant more to address long distance offshore passages not day sailing, coastal cruising or chartering. These are easily done with a single knowledgeable crew member and if she picks up some sailing experience along the way more the better. Some of your posts gave the impression that you were ready to buy a boat and charge across the Atlantic. Starting out slowly is certainly the prudent thing to do. I wish you the best success.

Bob


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## SeanRW (Apr 26, 2009)

Wow....talk about a heated thread.

Dan, go slow, your wife will pick up the simpler things on her own, especially with a bit of coaching. Everyone's point about your wife being an active member of the crew is warranted though. She may not necessarily need to have a six-pack license but she will need to know the the pointy end is the bow, the people stay in and the water stays out.

If you're planning short hops along (in sight of) the coast, you should be fine. That's day sailing with the pit-stops ashore every night or so to sleep, eat and plan tomorrow. BUT....if you're thinking about leaving sight of land, then your wife will need a bit more than "keep it pointed that way" kind of instruction. All the planning and weather watching will only get you so far.

Remember a few simple truths. You and your wife *will* become seasick at some point or orther (hopefully not at the same time but can't count on it). You and your wife *will* encounter bad weather in spite of all the careful planning. You and your wife *will* encounter traffic or navigational hazards on the water and need to know how to react. All of these things are troublesome when close to shore but even more so when out of sight of land.

Close in to shore you can pull in to regroup and rest if tired. Offshore, you will be splitting up the "on watch" duties so that at the least the skipper (you by the sounds of it) is rested when excrement occurs. A single all nighter passage is tiresome enough but sailing much longer than that means you will need rest and guess who's gonna hafta stay up then ? Your wife. and unless you're prepared to have her wake you every 15 minutes for instructions or reassurance, you're gonna be one frazzled, exhausted, grumpy and unhappy man.

Other than all that, once you get out on the water, it's sunny and the wind'n waves are co-operating, nothing beats it and you both'll have a blast. As for boat specific suggestions, here's my 2 bits worth

 Get a decent sized cockpit. It'll be the place you both spend most of your time and also the place you entertain the most
 Get your wife's input on the boat, especially the comfort factor. Remember, it's her home on the water too. You may like roughing it but she's the Cancun condo type right ? Plan for that need and accommodate her. 
 Docking in a marina is nice with all the shoreside facilities but it gets expensive real quick. Plan on spending time anchored out one you get "there"
 Invest in a good dinghy, preferably with an outboard. The sailboat is home, the dink is your car that you'll need to get groceries, visit the neighbors etc.
 Invest in some really good canvas (bimini top) cause if you're in the cockpit all day, you need some shade to stay cool right ?
 Invest in at least 1 oversized anchor so that when you do anchor, you've got some confidence that you don't become driftwood while sleeping or off visitng the bar
 If you're doing just coastal sailing, a VHF radio is fine. But an SSB or Sat-Phone allows you to get weather, email, stay in touch from further away. The SSB needs a license so plan on this if you want to get one.
 Whatever boat you get, make sure it has plenty of storage for food, clothing and because you sound like the handyman type, all your tools, spares etc.
 Look for a boat that's rigged with single handed sailing in mind. Makes it easier for you AND your wife to sail. She will enjoy participating if you let her
 Have you given any thought about insurance ? Most marinas will require you to have at least liability. Sailing courses can help lower your premiums
 In spite of your handiness, plan on having some contingency money for when things break. Trust the fact that you *will* need to replace something and boat bits are not cheap
Best of luck to you and your plans.

SRW


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

Sean that was a great post thank you.

As I said in my first post I was not sure where this post even went. I guess I was thinking (as a novice) that Blue Water or Cruising meant away from home for more than one night. Maybe where all the confusion came from. As it was just my first post I did not understand the terms.

As I see it now "Insight of land" not really blue water cruising, no matter how far you are from home or for how long. Even though I would really like to head out over the Atlantic for France it may be down the road some time before I can manage that.

My plan at the moment is to finish the Clipper Marine 26 and get it in the water (Lake Superior) by next spring. If we can live aboard that boat for a week at a time I think we can manage to stay longer on something 10 feet longer. Also it helps if I find out what things I need to have, room wise also.

Most of this stage for me is research and I have been getting a lot of info. I still need to know if it is possible to pull up to a small Island in the Caribbean and spend a few nights. Can you really live off the ocean (Fishing) or is catching fish to eat more of a lucky thing. These kinds of answers are far more beneficial to me as *I* will know far in advance if I am willing to take my wife on an extended cruise in or out of sight of land. I am thinking my first long cruises will be solo or with another sailor.

Keep the answers coming I am learning a lot.

Dan


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## sarafinadh (Jun 16, 2009)

*feeling one's brain explode...*

Heh...

There is a lot to learn, isn't there? Some days I feel my brain quietly exploding from everything I am studying and absorbing and putting into practice. Challenging, but exhausting some times. I have gotten great advice here, as you said, and some of the best advice has been... don't try to do it all at once!

As far as small islands in Caribbean go... my experience in the San Blas Islands was that everyone of those little atolls was SOMEONE's bailiwick and they might or might not be ok with you parking there for a night or a week, they might expect payment and don't TOUCH the coconuts, fruit, water, whatever... the ones with enough water to support plant growth are someone's garden and they don't want you picking their produce. The dive boats and charters that roam the waters regularly have agreements with the island owners/sharecroppers. Even the little flat ones with only a few Copra are someone's...


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## SeanRW (Apr 26, 2009)

Dan,

Just to clarify a few simple things like the nomenclature used (all that fancy boat-speak)...

Blue Water usually refers to open ocean but could refer more generally to offshore & out of sight of land. Usually this would mean that you're a day or more from getting ashore. This is where the wind is stronger, waves are bigger, water is deeper and you are definitely more "on your own".

Your eventual trip to Europe by boat is definitely *offshore* and you would be wise to have a good deal of experience and a very solid boat / gear before going for it. People have crossed oceans with no real previous experience and in less than ideal vessels but that's putting more faith in luck than I'm willing to risk. You're a pilot so I will trust that you like fun and challenge but aren't an idiot about taking unnecessary risks.

As for your plan, living aboard for a week is a good start. Gets you both used to
- Reduced personal space (you loose a lot of personal space aboard)
- Cooking in a smaller "kitchen" without a huge fridge or 10 pots'n pans
- Using the washroom while the boat's moving (men sit to pee...honest)
- Restricting your water consumption (plan on 1 gallon/day/person *minimum*)
- Managing garbage & sewage (inshore there's no dumping of either overboard)
- Getting used to the "sounds" the boat makes even at rest.

During all this time, practice sailing in all sorts of weather but work up to it in terms of wind, waves etc. This means both of you ! You both have to develop confidence in the boat and in your *combined* abilities under some varied conditions. Plus, sometimes it can be fun when you're both aboard on a boisterous windy, wavy day, heeled over and swishing along. But work up to it *together* even if you're doing most of the driving.

As for once you get wherever you get. Most islands in the Caribbean have mooring balls allowing you to tie up. Fishing is dependent on the country's laws and local customs etc. As *sarafinadh* has mentioned, make sure you're not squatting on someone else's property or swiping their fish & coconuts. Sometimes it's as simple as going ashore and asking their permission, other times, some $$$ compensation may be asked for. Remember, it's their backyard you're "parking" in. Be courteous.

Lastly, fishing for lunch & dinner is great if you're lucky enough to get something on the line. So bring your rod'n reel but don't assume it's tuna steaks or lobster every night. In some places you may have fishermen paddle over offering you a "catch of the day" and this is almost as good as catching it yourself and a helluva lot more reliable. Other than that, bring lots of rice and remember that fresh produce spoils rather quickly. Cans of beer and bottles of wine or rum keep forever, or at least as long as you let them last :laugher

Cheers.

SRW


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

All good advice.

I plan on canning most of my supplies along with dried food. This way there is less waste as far as garbage. A lot less cooking, most of the time it is just heating it up. Ever tried canned venison? My specialties are Jambalaya, French cassoulet, chili, and venison stew.

I also used to be in the water business so I plan on making an RO that will make water. I built an RO to supply water to the whole house for my daughter. Not as hard as it looks.

Most of the other arguments are the same ones that I get from the other pilots that say it is hard to fly cross country because of weather. This is true when you HAVE to get somewhere. Very rarely the case when you can pick and choose. You can get caught I know, but good planning and (I don't have to get there itis) is a big factor. In the upper Midwest you have to really know your weather. TS pop up sometimes like right now. As a pilot I have taken advanced courses on weather. Not really a problem if you are just flying around home but go CC and you really have to know what you are doing.

Dan


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## aerie (Jul 14, 2000)

You mentioned you are looking into sailing schools to get your bareboat charter certificate. I would encourage you to go with the American Sailing Association which has a series of courses that build on what you already know. I am a little biased since I teach for Northern Breezes Sailing School Northern Breezes Sailing School ...Safe, fun, learning... from Bayfield on Lake Superior and in the Caribbean during the winter months. We have a course that sounds perfect for you and your wife. It's called "Friends and Family" and it's structured so family members or a group of friends can become bareboat charter certified or "competent crew" while learning to work together as a team.

I agree with all the other posts here that say both members of a cruising couple need to know how to handle the boat in an emergency. I also believe that one person needs to be the designated captain. That would be you, of course. Definitely the boat needs to be set up for singlehanding because on long passages both crew members need to be able to get some rest. While one person is sleeping the other is singlehanding. You can learn more about singlehanding and shorthanded sailing through the Great Lakes Singlehanded Society. Check out their website The Great Lakes Singlehanded Society - Home Page You sound like a perfect candidate for participating in the events, and if you do get your boat ready to splash by 2010 you can take part in the Lake Superior Solo Scramble in August 2010.

I have several cruising friends where the wife does not go on the long passages, but prefers to meet the boat at the destination. As one says, "nothing goes to weather like a 747!" The husband takes friends along as crew. In my experience on ocean passages of 5 to 14 days, a minimum of three people standing watch (assuming no one gets seasick) allows for everyone to get rest and stay happy.

It may be a little late in the season for a class on Lake Superior this year, so you might want to consider taking the friends and family class in the BVI. Nothing breaks up the long Wisconsin winter like a trip to paradise! Another favorite winter activity is Strictly Sail Official site of the Strictly Sail Chicago 2009 January 28-30 where you can tour all the newest boats and attend seminars to feed your cruising dream. You will find me at the booth for Northern Breezes Sailing School or the Great Lakes Singlehanded Society.

Captain Gail
s/v Shanti, Great Lakes
s/v Gaiamar, Caribbean


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

Captain Gail,

Yours was the school I was going to take. It got a little late this year I was hoping to get in on a class at the end of Sept. Wood cutting got in the way.

Don't get me wrong but for the life of me I do not know why everyone seems to think they know my wife and I better than I do. I have been an instructor for many different things. Right now I am working on my Sport pilot instructor certificate. I have no problem instructing my wife. I never said she couldn't learn, I said it would do no good to count on her. I have taught her to do many things. She is a very good golfer, she is an even better golfer if you tell her which club to use and how (Each time). I would be more interested in taking her along on my boat with a captain/instructor. If I take her along as a classmate I will have more to handle than just what I need to do and this takes away from me. Ask me how I know! I have done it before. I am a very good instructor and I know her very well. As an instructor you must know that you need to know each pupil to understand how each one will learn the best. This takes time. I have 30 + years at it. You have yet to meet her. There is a difference between knowing how to do something and actually doing it. There is a bigger difference, doing it under pressure. This is where she does not do good. All that said if she wants to shell out the money to go to class I will not stop her. I had to give up on my wish to go scuba diving because I was signed up for class with her. At the last minute she decided she would not be able to pass and said she did not want to do it. So we dropped out. I do not want to make that mistake again.

See you next year on the lake. Give me an email if you would like to do some lessons or just general instruction on my boat next year. I am very flexible on time.

Dan


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## saildork (Feb 20, 2007)

Dan,

Nothing in Gail's post suggests that she knows your wife better than you do. But she does know sailing better than you do.


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

saildork said:


> Dan,
> 
> Nothing in Gail's post suggests that she knows your wife better than you do. But she does know sailing better than you do.


_It's called "Friends and Family" and it's structured so family members or a group of friends can become bareboat charter certified or "competent crew" while learning to work together as a team._

I can here it now, I am sorry Dan I would be able to give you your bareboat charter certification as a crew, but I just do not think that your wife can handle emergencies if you were to be incapacitated. If you come back I can get you your certification as a skipper alone. For insurance reasons I would be out of line to give a crewed charter out to you as a couple.

I think something like this should be fun. I love learning. I get very involved while learning. I take everything in. I get consumed. What would not be fun is worrying about what Cindy is learning or how she is doing at the same time. My mind is not on my process now, it is on others. So now you have two people not having fun. Cindy is not going to have fun learning this under class room conditions. I am going to be miserable because she is miserable.

I think it is great that everyone wants to jump on Cindy's bandwagon. Ultimately though it comes down to my decision though. Am *I* going to trust her with my life if I had to... I am not telling her that she cannot take any classes. If she wants to that is fine. If you want to pay for her classes that is even better. She makes far more money than I do so it is not a matter of I am not going to pay for lessons for you. I am sure that Gail does know sailing better than I do. I never said otherwise. One of the reasons I am going to take her class.

Dan


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## aerie (Jul 14, 2000)

I've had couples in the BVI where only one wanted to become bareboat certified, and the other was along just for the vacation. The wife did learn a lot just by observing the other students go through all the drills, but didn't have to worry about passing a test. If you want to charter a boat, the charter company will also want to know the experience level of your crew, so that may be an issue for you.

I would be happy to do a private class with you on your own boat. I have done this in the past and it really is a great idea. Last summer I did a class on Lake Michigan with the wife, daughter and friend aboard. They all learned so much more from me than they could in years of sailing with the husband. Perhaps my being a woman made a difference as well.


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

aerie said:


> I've had couples in the BVI where only one wanted to become bareboat certified, and the other was along just for the vacation. The wife did learn a lot just by observing the other students go through all the drills, but didn't have to worry about passing a test. If you want to charter a boat, the charter company will also want to know the experience level of your crew, so that may be an issue for you.
> 
> I would be happy to do a private class with you on your own boat. I have done this in the past and it really is a great idea. Last summer I did a class on Lake Michigan with the wife, daughter and friend aboard. They all learned so much more from me than they could in years of sailing with the husband. Perhaps my being a woman made a difference as well.


Sounds like a plan. I know my daughter and grandkids will have a blast also. I think you also will be surprised on how well Cindy can sail. Which is not really the issue as far as all the hoopla is concerned. We have lived on a lake for the last 12 years or so. I have owned a Hobbie Cat, and a Chrysler 14 foot sailboat that we sail. I know they are small and not quite the same.

My books came today, here is one of the first lines in one of them by a noted author. "...who have circumnavigated twice in sailboats less than 30' in length, argue that small and simple boats are better for voyaging couples."

This maybe where the differences in opinion lie. He goes on to say that the larger boats 35' and up take two people to sail properly. Since most of you are saying that I need a 40' and on up your point is valid. He also goes on to say that these types of boats need more than just two crew mostly a crew of four. This is not what I was looking for. I was looking for a boat that is easily sailed by one person. It turns out that my 26' may fit the bill perfectly. There were two boats that resembled it in the 20 boats he mentioned. A few were smaller.

Here is to a short winter

Dan


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## SeanRW (Apr 26, 2009)

Cobra160 said:


> .............​
> My books came today, here is one of the first lines in one of them by a noted author. "...who have circumnavigated twice in sailboats less than 30' in length, argue that small and simple boats are better for voyaging couples."
> 
> This maybe where the differences in opinion lie. He goes on to say that the larger boats 35' and up take two people to sail properly. Since most of you are saying that I need a 40' and on up your point is valid. He also goes on to say that these types of boats need more than just two crew mostly a crew of four. This is not what I was looking for. I was looking for a boat that is easily sailed by one person. It turns out that my 26' may fit the bill perfectly. There were two boats that resembled it in the 20 boats he mentioned. A few were smaller.


Dan,

Without knowing who wrote the book(s) that you just received I can still say that he/she has way more experience than me but.......

Bear in mind that nowadays, with modern sailboat design, the advent of things like self furling head sails, main sails, powered winches etc. most 40-50 foot vessels can be sailed by a couple without too much hassle. That being said, a few things to consider. (these are my opinions and likely not shared by everyone so take them with a grain of salt)

A larger boat, carrying bigger sails, winches, ropes, anchors, weight etc. is more of a handful *but* with a proper design AND the help of things like the furling gear, lines led to cockpit, powered winches/windlass can be handled by any crew.....Up to a practical point. I'm not suggesting you pop out and buy a 70' but there is no reason that a 35-45 footer couldn't be handled by you & your wife. A larger boat will also allow you to have guests & kids along for the ride should wish. A smaller boat may be a nice little nest for 2 but throw in a few more adults and it's more like camping.

A larger boat will carry more weight without adversely affecting performance. This extra weight can be people, supplies, water, fuel or even toys like your scuba tank & compressor. A smaller boat will begin to suffer sooner as you start adding this same weight.

A well designed larger boat will handle "more weather" with less discomfort for the crew. I am not saing that there aren't some very sea-worthy smaller boats (I sail one right now !!), I'm just saying in general.

A larger boat will require more time and cost in maintenance. Period. No if's or but's. Period. It will also cost you more in mooring fees, more to haul out, to paint, to dock/berth. A larger boat will limit some of the places you can squeeze into with regards to draft specifically.

Keep in mind that no sailboat is perfect and they are all trade-off's between competing requirements & design elements. You figure out what your top 5 criteria are and then you look around for boats that meet as many as possible.

SRW


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

It was John Vigor and he just updated it so it has newer boats in it. I was shocked at the size of some of the boats he mentioned.

"Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere."

I just loved the Bristol 27 and the Bristol Cutter 28. I am going through it more in depth tonight.

Dan


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

The books were very enlightening.

I did find out that what I am planning to do is called Cruising as defined in the book. Cruising it said is a wide term. A voyage is what is called a blue water cruise. (This continent to that continent so to speak.) So my first post described exactly what I plan on doing. I also learned a lot about what makes a boat seaworthy. 

The Seaworthy offshore sailboat
Things I wish I'd known before I started sailing
Twenty small sailboats to take you anywhere
All by John Vigor

If anyone has any other suggestions on books I would like to hear them.
also if there is a good class book type on sailing.

For my plane I have an Electronic Flight Bag that has all the charts I need for the entire US. I have GPS capabilities with it as well as airspace restrictions and all airports. Does the Marine world have some type of program like this. It just goes on a tablet PC or a laptop. I know Lawrence Electronics has a data base for marine but I do not know how extensive it is.

Dan


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## SeanRW (Apr 26, 2009)

Cobra160 said:


> ..................................​The Seaworthy offshore sailboat
> Things I wish I'd known before I started sailing
> Twenty small sailboats to take you anywhere
> All by John Vigor
> ...


Dan,

A few of the books I read when getting started on planning for something more than sailing on Lake Ontario.
- The Voyagers Handbook - Beth Leonard
- Cruising Handbook - Nigel Calder
- Handbook of Offshore Cruising - Jim Howard
- World Cruising Essentials - Jim Connell

I also read through as many different blogs and web sites as I could find by people actually out there doing it. Keep in mind that the books are great but they speak in generalities. The websites can provide a more granular view on the subject. They also tend to show you the progression from amateur to accomplished sailor which will illustrate the lessons learned. Lastly, the blogs & websites will often provide you with specific commentary on boat types and brands, specific equipment and vendors etc. This is extremely useful to have when planning to kit out your own vessel and may save you money or at least make a better informed decision.

As for your navigational flight bag and it's sailing equivalent, well..you're not going to fit all your nav-aids and charts into any manageable bag....suitcase, maybe. You have your small scale charts for big bodies of water, large scale charts for more detail of smaller areas. Depending on where you plan on sailing that may require only a few (or even one) small scale chart but could include several large scale charts for harbors, inlets, bays etc.

As for equipment, yes, a handheld GPS will come in handy and you can certainly get GPS interfaced with software programs to run off your laptop. These will have electronic charts that are "zoom-able".

A lot of people invest in on board fixed Chartplotters (raymarine, furuno etc.) and then carry a laptop as well which they can use for passage planning _(not to mention solitaire, email & movies !!)_ etc. However, one thing you will hear often, not just on this forum but in most publications is the recommendation that you carry a full set of paper charts for your sailing area along with the basic manual navigation gear.

Electronic goodies are great for ease of use, immediate accuracy, quickness etc. BUT if you run out of electricity, get hit by lightning, get your electronics wet well then you're FUBAR / IN DEEP KAKA. Your paper chart, handheld compass and even a sextant won't let you down but they do require practice.

SRW
(Chief Prognosticator on HMS Titanic)


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## SeanRW (Apr 26, 2009)

Dan,

Here's a link to some of the blogs to get you started. All just regular Joes & Janets out there sailing.

Cruising Blogs and Narratives - CruiserlogWiki


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## MMR (Oct 5, 2007)

*Charts*

For a quick look at charts, downloadable,

go to

BookletChart™ (Experimental)

US Chart #1 has all the Nautical Chart Symbols, Abbreviations and Terms

U.S. Chart No. 1


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## Cobra160 (Sep 13, 2009)

SeanRW said:


> As for your navigational flight bag and it's sailing equivalent, well..you're not going to fit all your nav-aids and charts into any manageable bag....suitcase, maybe. You have your small scale charts for big bodies of water, large scale charts for more detail of smaller areas. Depending on where you plan on sailing that may require only a few (or even one) small scale chart but could include several large scale charts for harbors, inlets, bays etc.
> 
> As for equipment, yes, a handheld GPS will come in handy and you can certainly get GPS interfaced with software programs to run off your laptop. These will have electronic charts that are "zoom-able".
> 
> ...


What I use is an *Electronic* flight bag so all the charts can go with me.

I think this is the same as the Chart plotters you linked me to. I have all the hardware it is the same as my airplane unit. I just need software. I have a good start though thank you. The way I do it in a plane is have a backup handheld GPS totally independent of my main EFB. In the boat it would have to be in a water tight container (Ziplock). I have the same redundancy with my radios I just keep a handheld that has VOR and COM in my flight bag.

Looking up books on Amazon, the internet is great!. I understand your meaning on using the web over just books also that is why I am here. Funny how the books say the same or opposite thing. Look on the internet but, take it for what it is worth. Believe the book. I find that using both gets me ahead of the game.

Dan


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## SeanRW (Apr 26, 2009)

MMR said:


> For a quick look at charts, downloadable,
> 
> go to
> 
> ...


MMR,

Thanks for the link. Great resource !!!

I'm planning on getting me a copy of Bowditch as a reference onboard. Thinking of investing in a sextant and a course in it's use. If only for the hobby aspect.



Cobra160 said:


> What I use is an *Electronic* flight bag so all the charts can go with me.
> 
> I think this is the same as the Chart plotters you linked me to. I have all the hardware it is the same as my airplane unit. I just need software. I have a good start though thank you. The way I do it in a plane is have a backup handheld GPS totally independent of my main EFB. In the boat it would have to be in a water tight container (Ziplock). I have the same redundancy with my radios I just keep a handheld that has VOR and COM in my flight bag.
> 
> ...


Dan,

You're right about the books. Some can be contradictory and then you throw in the web for even more confusion !! But....my personal opinion is that the more information I have the better. I can separate the "wheat from the chaff" as I go. There's a lot to be said about information overload but there's also little nuggets in them thar books'n blogs.

SRW


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> I've had couples in the BVI where only one wanted to become bareboat certified, and the other was along just for the vacation. The wife did learn a lot just by observing the other students go through all the drills, but didn't have to worry about passing a test. If you want to charter a boat, the charter company will also want to know the experience level of your crew, so that may be an issue for you.


Not to dredge up the wife-sailor issue (Dan doesn't need any more advice on this), BUT, I have been working through similar issues since starting to sail 5 years ago. This discussion has made me realize that there are a bunch of different sailing relationships that may work. I had hoped my wife would be the gung-ho-sailing-partner type--she isn't that interested. She can sail some, and was interested enough to take the Friends and Family course in Bayfield (with Tom E. on Andiamo). She wants to be a better sailor in order to be a safe sailing couple, but, felt overwhelmed in the class. When the time is right she may want to learn more, but for now she enjoys sailing mostly as a passenger (daysailing). Works for me!


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## CaptFoolhardy (Sep 5, 2009)

Cobra160 said:


> If anyone has any other suggestions on books I would like to hear them.
> also if there is a good class book type on sailing.
> 
> Dan


Hi Dan,

I mentioned some authors in a previous post but I'll fill in some titles for you.
"The Annapolis Book of Seamanship" by John Rousmaniere is excellent, a must-have.
"The Cruising Handbook" and "How To Read A Nautical Chart" by Nigel Calder
"The Voyager's Handbook" by Beth Leonard
"The Complete Sailor" by David Seidman, this is an excellent introduction to sailing and it's the book I learned from.
"Chapman Piloting and Seamanship" an encyclopedic volume that is probably the most complete reference available on all aspects of boating.

I haven't read these titles but have read other things by these authors and consider them to be excellent resources:
Lin and Larry Pardy - 
"Storm Tactics Handbook"
"Self Sufficient Sailor"​Steve and Linda Dashew - "Practical Seamanship"
"Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia II"​Steve Colgate -"Steve Colgate on Sailing"
"Fast Track to Cruising" - many U.S. Sailing affiliated schools (and maybe some others) use this as the text book for their bareboat and coastal cruising certification courses.​
Cheers,
Bob


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## CaptFoolhardy (Sep 5, 2009)

Cobra160 said:


> I would be more interested in taking her along on my boat with a captain/instructor. If I take her along as a classmate I will have more to handle than just what I need to do and this takes away from me.
> 
> ... and in another post...
> 
> I think something like this should be fun. I love learning. I get very involved while learning. I take everything in. I get consumed. What would not be fun is worrying about what Cindy is learning or how she is doing at the same time.


Many sailing schools advise against couples taking courses together for this very reason. Furthermore, there are schools that offer courses for women only, specifically tailored to them and recognizing the fact that in many cases it is the husband's idea to take the course in the first place.
Here's one:
Womanship.com

Bob


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## doubleeboy (Jul 21, 2008)

"Ready for Sea" - Tor Pinney

How to outfit the modern cruising sailboat and prepare your vessel and yourself for extended passagemaking.

pretty good book
michael


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## aerie (Jul 14, 2000)

Consider taking the Ocean Sailing Seminar offered by the Cruising Rally Association: Cruising Rally Association | Offshore sailing - Adventure, Camaraderie, Competition

For bluewater sailing experience you can volunteer to crew in the Caribbean 1500 or Atlantic Cup. I have done this every year since 2005 and have learned so much, and have also made life-long friends after spending 5 to 14 days together on an ocean passage. You can learn a lot by sailing with people who are more experienced.

Captain Gail


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## aerie (Jul 14, 2000)

You also asked about charting software to use on your PC. Most boats I have crewed for are using Nobeltec. If you get AIS (highly recommended in order to see shipping traffic) it will display on the Nobletec chart.


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## sarafinadh (Jun 16, 2009)

for a do it yourself kind of guy looking at

Seaclear and OpenCPN

are navigation programs with pretty robust features. Implementation to get up and running seems a bit tricky, but worth it I think.


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