# Tipping a skipper on a bareboat charter



## cobradvm

Hi, I apologize in advance if this topic has already been beaten to death. I am planning two charters in the BVIs this spring. Both are a week in length, separated by a week at a resort. My goal long term, is to be able to bareboat charter without a skipper., To that end, as a newcomer to the sailing world, I have taken the US Sailing courses up to and including 104 for bareboat cruising. I've also crewed on a J33 in a beer can racing series over the summer. 
We will be doing all the provisioning and all the cooking. I've already planned an itinerary for both weeks, however they are more just guidelines to give us the flexibility if circumstances dictate we need to alter course as it were. 
By and large, I feel pretty comfortable skippering the boat (both are 42' cats) but I'm not sure the charter company's will see it that way. So we have tentatively agreed to have a skipper. I am hoping (and have indicated to the charter company) that i would like to do as much hands on sailing as possible. The charter is as much for me to go sailing, as it is to visit Willy T's or the Soggy Dollar. All 4 of us on the boat have sailing experience, however I will be the only one with the bareboat certification, and none of us currently own boats or have previously chartered. 

So my questions are:
A. What's the chances they will let me sail without a skipper, and 
B. If we are basically doing everything, but under the eye of a skipper, plus providing all his meals etc, is a 15-20% of the charter fee still considered appropriate? I have no problem tipping the skipper 20% of his skipper fee, but 15 to 20% if the charter fee seems excessive - substantially more that the skipper fee alone.

Thanks!


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## Minnewaska

Yes, they will let you do whatever you are capable and willing to do. Most likely give you some good feedback, ideas, perspective, etc.

No, you can't discount their gratuity, as they are trying to make a living. That would make you a bad luck of the draw, if they could have otherwise gone with a client that didn't want to do as much you.


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## Jammer Six

Bareboat charters don't have a captain. (There's a difference between a captain and a skipper.)

That's one of the reasons it's called a "bareboat" charter.


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## Minnewaska

If you know how to sail, but just don't have experience on a boat of that size, or are going from a mono to a cat, the charter company may not require the captain stay for the whole trip. The Captain can typically use their discretion, but may be comfortable leaving you on your own after a day or two. Then you only tip for the amount of time they were aboard, not the entire charter.

Who did you use to charter? Some are more or less picky.


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## ianjoub

15% - 20% of the charter fee for a tip? No way in h3ll. I think only a charter captain would even suggest such a thing.


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## Minnewaska

ianjoub said:


> 15% - 20% of the charter fee for a tip? No way in h3ll. I think only a charter captain would even suggest such a thing.


What have you tipped?


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## denverd0n

It is 15%-20% of the skipper fee. Not of the full charter fee.


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## ianjoub

Minnewaska said:


> What have you tipped?


I would think 10% - 15% of the skipper's fee would be more appropriate. I only had a captained charter once. He refused to sail in the rain on our 3 day charter. He is lucky he got anything at all.


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## eherlihy

First issue: US Sailing does not teach 101, 103 or 104. Those are ASA terms, and not knowing this indicates that there are probably other gaps...

The skipper fee charged to the client does not all go to the skipper. It goes to the charter company, and they take a cut.

The appropriate term is "gratuity," because it is an expression of your grattitude to the skipper. If you would say "thank you" to the skipper, you should provide the skipper with a gratuity for the time that s/he spends with you.


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## Minnesail

ianjoub said:


> I would think 10% - 15% of the skipper's fee would be more appropriate. I only had a captained charter once. He refused to sail in the rain on our 3 day charter. He is lucky he got anything at all.


That's understandable. He probably didn't want to get the boat wet.


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## Minnewaska

ianjoub said:


> I would think 10% - 15% of the skipper's fee would be more appropriate. I only had a captained charter once. He refused to sail in the rain on our 3 day charter. He is lucky he got anything at all.


I wonder if he could sense that your idea of a good tip would still be pretty low, compared to others he might have been interested in sailing with in the rain. 

As a general rule, do you like a tipping structure or would you prefer the concept was eliminated and prices increased uniformly to pay the service folks ?


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## ianjoub

In certain jobs, tipping seems to be beneficial. In others, it just seems wrong. Who would want to be expected to tip a surgeon if everything went ok? 

I spent 6 or 7 years bartending to pay for college and get on my feet afterwards. I understand the concept and tip well for EXCEPTIONAL service. I'll tip 10% for 'You did your job' service, and less for crappy service.


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## gptyk

Minnewaska said:


> ....
> 
> As a general rule, do you like a tipping structure or would you prefer the concept was eliminated and prices increased uniformly to pay the service folks ?


I _hate _the concept of typical or standardized tipping. (I.e. waitstaff in the U.S.) If everybody is going to tip 15%, just pay the staff an additional 15% and set prices accordingly. The staff now knows how much they'll make. I know how much I'll pay, and everybody happy.

Do you tip the airline pilot? Why should I tip a boat captain?

I hate tipping.


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## eherlihy

gptyk said:


> I _hate _the concept of typical or standardized tipping. (I.e. waitstaff in the U.S.) If everybody is going to tip 15%, just pay the staff an additional 15% and set prices accordingly. The staff now knows how much they'll make. I know how much I'll pay, and everybody happy.
> 
> Do you tip the airline pilot? Why should I tip a boat captain?
> 
> I hate tipping.


Then don't be a charter client.

Cash gratuities are part of the system that has evolved. It ensures that the skipper shows the client the best time that the skipper can. It allows the charter company to provide you with a low advertised price on the service of a qualified captain. It also allows the client some feedback for the service that they do, or do not, receive.

Frankly, I agree with you. I would much prefer to be paid a respectable hourly wage for the service that I provide when I asked to be a charter captain... "What is a respectable living wage?" you ask? What did you make per hour (Take your anual salary, and divide by 2000) at my age in your career? I'll settle for that... You're younger than me?; OK, I'll take what you currently make per hour. Heck, I'd settle for the hourly wage that the airline pilot makes if I could also have his/her job security and benefits. If I do so, however, it is with the understanding that I wouldn't have to cook, and clean up after the clients, or fix the stuff on board that breaks, and I'd qualify for overtime. All of that sounds pretty good to me. I doubt that the clients, or the charter companies, would be in favor of the new pricing model however.

When I'm captaining a charter, I am responsible to see that everything is running as smoothly as possible, and that the clients are safe and happy during their vacation... AND, I don't work an 8 hour, or even a 10 hour day. I'm aboard for 24 hours for the length of the charter. I can't go home at night and see my family, or sleep in my bed. I can't do chores (laundry, bill paying, etc.) or fix things around the house either, so I have to plan to get these things done in my absence. I am usually the chief cook, and dishwasher, and mechanic, and plumber, and tour guide, and concierge, and sailing instructor. I have to be licensed, take CPR courses, be available at the time that the client wants to go on vacation, be vetted by homeland security, and listen to the client's snoring (and other noises), be discreet, and respect their politics. I can't choose not to be with the client, but the client can choose not to be with me. When this happens (such as if they go ashore for dinner and dancing), I get stuck waiting for the client on the boat.

Don't misunderstand me; I do this job because I love sailing, and I enjoy meeting and sailing with new people. I also love teaching people how to do something that they have never done before. I don't, however, do it because it will allow me to retire in comfort, because it won't.

I have received nothing but a "thank you" on many occasions. Some of these occasions it was when captaining for friends, whose money I would not accept for my service. Other times it was from charter clients that have also hired me to do repairs on their boats. Lastly, I have not received a gratuity from people who just didn't know any better. If you've read this far, you now know better. In my limited experience, a decent gratuity for a 2-5 day charter is in the neighborhood of $50/day (although I have seen much more)... If that's too much for you, and you are not already a friend or a customer, then please don't sail with me. We probably both have better things to do.

At the high end, I also know captains who tell me that they expect over $250 per day as a gratuity for working in the BVIs (in addition to pay from the charter company). I can't speak to that, as I've never been there, and don't know what they're doing to earn that.


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## cobradvm

Thanks all for the feedback - much appreciated! The two companies we are going with are Dream Yacht Charters with a Bali 4.3, and the other one is with BVI Yacht Charters on a Helia 44. Both are 2016 cats.


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## Minnewaska

$50 per day would be huge percentage of just the skipper fee, but a low percentage of the entire boat cost. I've only paid a skipper once and the tip amounted to about $100 per day. One guy. It would probably be okay with me to expect that two crew split a gratuity based upon the total boat cost, but they would have, therefore, split the duty. 

For those that hate gratuities, there is no reconciling the difference of opinion. I support the tipping/gratuity model, when there is a personal and variable service level. I fully support the idea that folks that work harder and do a better job get paid more. Some argue that tips gravitate to a median for all, which argues they could be built in a standard cost. But I disagree. Those that work harder, wait on more tables, work faster and smarter will make more money in a gratuity model. It should be that way. A flat hourly wage reduces productivity. That's my opinion, you may disagree. 

I tip the dock hands that run to help me land the boat in a relatively difficult slip. They are not required to drop their broom and come over. Its an "as available" service. The tip inspires they do both, otherwise, why bother? 

I do not tip hotel cleaning staff. I never interact with them. The service is absolutely standard, no extra effort creates more value to the consumer. Pay them properly in the first place.


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## Yamsailor

Well, I am a professional Captain and I take clients out on multi-day trips. I refuse to work for $150-$200/day with the possibility of getting a tip. I understand that appears to be the going rates in the BVIs. I have trained long and hard to get where I am today. I also continue to train and acquire new skill sets. When I am working I am working 24 hours a day. So I make sure I get the minimum fees I want or I don't do the job--that simple. If your life is not worth paying your Captain properly I say go sail the boat yourself.

Most Captains I know who do work for the low day rates say they usually get 10%-15% of the total charter fee.

Do you really want your Captain to be paid minimally? What kind of professional Captain do you think you will get?


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## Jammer Six

I like the way you take your stand for the big money and then advocate for the high tips all in one post.


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## Uricanejack

I will tip a waiter, waitress, barman, steward, why not the cook.
Why would you tip the captain? I wouldn't.
I used to teach sailing and take people out for a charter as a skipper. I never expected to be tipped.
The BVI might be different to where I operated. Certainly would only see it as a percentage of the fee paid to have a skipper. 

Even so If I pay a company for a service I expect it to be provided. So I would not be chartering from those operations.


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## Uricanejack

If you only do your job properly in expectation of a "tip" you are "not a professional"
You are a "servant" 

I expect a professional to be properly compensated and carry out his or her professional duties regardless


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## Minnewaska

Around here, a captain will run you between $250-$450 per day. Depends on degree of difficulty. 

In these charter operations, they charge ~$150/day and keep some of it. Therefore, the professional is expecting to be tipped. One can like or not like the system, but that's the way it is. Think of it as paying the proper rate, when tipping the skipper, but having the option to stiff them, if you think they did a poor job.


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## SVAuspicious

I don't do charters although on delivery some crew are more like passengers than I would prefer. I don't really know how much overlap there is between delivery work and charter work. I charge what I expect to earn and don't expect a tip. Of course there is no charter company between me and my customer and that would surely change the dynamic. 

My customers will sometimes take me and the crew to dinner if they meet the boat after a delivery. I don't expect it. I appreciate it greatly. I've been tipped once in a while. Usually I try to spread that love around to my crew. Usually spread out it isn't so much so I buy momentos of the trip as gifts. After a couple of weeks you know people well enough to find appropriate things.


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## FarCry

Interesting comments... I deliver boats, do briefings and check out charter guests and do a few charters a year, none of which are my primary source of income. After being in the business for about 8 years I see some trends based on the residence of the charter guests. There are some societies where tipping isn't common like it is in the US and I can appreciate that and have no expectations of a gratuity. My theory is to do my absolute best at all times and not base my success on others generosity. 

At times I've been given surprisingly large gratuities when I feel the customer didn't get much value for my time. An example that springs to mind is the charter guest that had zero catamaran experience and wanted a day to get familiar with the vessel and the local waters. There was less than 5kts of wind for the first hour and then I saw a nasty black clouded front coming our way. Even though we were motor sailing I showed the customer what I saw coming and why we would just drop the sails and see what it brought. The storm didn't bring much wind but torrential rain dropping visibility to just past the bow. I had seen some ferry traffic coming our way at 25kts and decided to motor up close to a small Island to "hide" from any foolish operators still running at full throttle. Our wait, while holding position with engines, lasted for over an hour. Wit some visibility was restored I reviewed some other pieces of boat specific info before being dropped on shore to ferry back home. I told the customer that I felt bad that I was only able to really give them about 3 hours of usable instruction because of the weather. I was expecting the charter guest, an apparently semi-famous DC trial attorney, to ask for a refund and I would've waived some of my fee through the charter company if he pressed at all. Instead he asked "What's the biggest tip for a day you've ever received?". I don't recall my reply but he started peeling off $100 bills at an incredible rate and told me to say stop when I had enough!!! I immediately told him to stop and tried to return the money but he would have none of it. He told me he learned more about weather, boat handling and safety strategy in our short day then he had in years on the water and was very grateful. 

I did a 12 day trip with some foreigners, arranged rendezvous dives, made dinner reservations and generally worked my butt off the entire time. They told me it was the best trip of their life and thanked me over and over again while leaving me almost enough money to have a nice meal. It's not their culture and I'm fine with that. I don't run around on boats to get rich, I enjoy it (most times)...


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## SVAuspicious

FarCry said:


> Interesting comments...


I think I like you. *grin*

I'll be in Red Hook in mid-December. Maybe we can find a time to hang.

Any recommendations on a place to deep clean a boat?


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## Landwalker

My biggest issue with tipping isn't the concept, it's the assumption of common knowledge. If tipping is expected, then I'd better be _told upfront_ that it's expected, or else I'm not going to know that I'm "supposed" to tip (and I'm not going to do it). Hardly anywhere bothers to make this clear, however. Anyone who grew up in the U.S. knows about tipping waitstaff at a restaurant because it's so common, but chartering or hired skippering isn't exactly something that most of the country grows up around. If I didn't know any better, I would treat it the same way I treat a plumber or an accountant or an attorney or a doctor-they tell me how much it costs, and I pay them that amount.

If hired skippering wants to operate on a different price model, that's fine and I have no problem with it. Some places actually do this, but rarely do they make it as clear as it should be (Blue Water Sailing School, for example, at least _has_ a reference to tipping-it's buried in their FAQ, and is only obliquely referenced on their pricing pages, but it's at least _somewhere_, so a person like me who is actually trying to find out about them in a non-lazy fashion would know in advance that it's part of the expectation. Other places, however (like Black Rock Sailing School in Boston, to pick one at random on the Googles), either make no mention of it at all or have it so deeply buried that I can't find it. So if I were looking to take a course at Black Rock, I have no idea if a gratuity is expected to be part of that transaction-and I wouldn't provide one, as a result (unless it was so great that I felt they deserved someone on top of the agreed upon price on the basis of sheer outstandingness).


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## Yamsailor

I differentiate pay rates with and without tips as noted in my prior post. I provide my rates up front without the expectation of receiving a tip. The client has the choice to either hire me or not hire me. I am perfectly happy with the arrangement and so are the people who hire me. More often than not I receive what I consider to be a substantial tip.



Jammer Six said:


> I like the way you take your stand for the big money and then advocate for the high tips all in one post.


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## jwing

One way to think about tipping - regardless of the type of service - is to determine how much you would be willing to pay for that service if the payment structure was flat fee, absolutely no gratuity accepted. Let's say that you are willing to pay $500 per day for a captain. If the charter company is brokering a captain at $400 per day, then tip the captain $100 per day. OTH, If you are willing to spend only $400 for a captain, the tip will be zero. Let the captains and the brokers work out the free-market pricing splits amongst themselves.


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## Yamsailor

Exactly. Licensed Captains working in the business are professional. They are not weekend warriors. As I said in an earlier post, some Captains will work for $200.00 day and take the risk of not getting a tip, some Captains won't take the risk. Best option for the consumer is to find the right Captain that works for you. Remember every business transaction has to be a "win-win." Both the consumer and service provider must be happy with the arrangements; It should never be a "win-lose" scenario.



jwing said:


> One way to think about tipping - regardless of the type of service - is to determine how much you would be willing to pay for that service if the payment structure was flat fee, absolutely no gratuity accepted. Let's say that you are willing to pay $500 per day for a captain. If the charter company is brokering a captain at $400 per day, then tip the captain $100 per day. OTH, If you are willing to spend only $400 for a captain, the tip will be zero. Let the captains and the brokers work out the free-market pricing splits amongst themselves.


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## caberg

eherlihy said:


> Frankly, I agree with you. I would much prefer to be paid a respectable hourly wage for the service that I provide when I asked to be a charter captain... "What is a respectable living wage?" you ask? What did you make per hour (Take your anual salary, and divide by 2000) at my age in your career? I'll settle for that... You're younger than me?; OK, I'll take what you currently make per hour. Heck, I'd settle for the hourly wage that the airline pilot makes if I could also have his/her job security and benefits. If I do so, however, it is with the understanding that I wouldn't have to cook, and clean up after the clients, or fix the stuff on board that breaks, and I'd qualify for overtime. All of that sounds pretty good to me. I doubt that the clients, or the charter companies, would be in favor of the new pricing model however.
> 
> When I'm captaining a charter, I am responsible to see that everything is running as smoothly as possible, and that the clients are safe and happy during their vacation... AND, I don't work an 8 hour, or even a 10 hour day. I'm aboard for 24 hours for the length of the charter. I can't go home at night and see my family, or sleep in my bed. I can't do chores (laundry, bill paying, etc.) or fix things around the house either, so I have to plan to get these things done in my absence. I am usually the chief cook, and dishwasher, and mechanic, and plumber, and tour guide, and concierge, and sailing instructor. I have to be licensed, take CPR courses, be available at the time that the client wants to go on vacation, be vetted by homeland security, and listen to the client's snoring (and other noises), be discreet, and respect their politics. I can't choose not to be with the client, but the client can choose not to be with me. When this happens (such as if they go ashore for dinner and dancing), I get stuck waiting for the client on the boat.


So, in other words, the pay sucks and you hate your job.

Seems like you'd be happier with a different career and then sailing with friends of your choice in your free time.


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## eherlihy

No, I said in the post from which you excerpted


> Don't misunderstand me; I do this job because I love sailing, and I enjoy meeting and sailing with new people. I also love teaching people how to do something that they have never done before. I don't, however, do it because it will allow me to retire in comfort, because it won't.


 Were you unable to comprehend this?

The pay is modest, and some of the people that I have worked for are cheap... I suppose that I have the option of simply driving the boat, and keeping them off the rocks. If I were to only do this, I would not expect a gratuity.

Someone that will charter a boat, either request or be required to use the service of a captain in order to enjoy their vacation, and then stiff the captain or crew should not be able to charter. There are a couple of clients that I have had, that I will refuse to captain for again. Most clients, however, have been great.


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## Yamsailor

Your response appears to indicate you are more about discrediting the individual rather than listening to that individual in the entire context of their statements.

I love taking people out on the water and I also value my skill sets. Just because you love to do something does not mean you have to do it for free. To the contrary, if you love doing something and you are good at it, then why do it for free? This is not an "either/or" situation--no transaction is black/white.

If someone is hiring a Captain, it usually means they are uncomfortable operating the boat (for whatever reason) themselves. If I am in charge of an $800,000 boat and responsible for the lives of 6 passengers, I will get what I feel will be appropriate compensation or I don't do the job--that simple. In a free-market, it is my right to do so.



caberg said:


> So, in other words, the pay sucks and you hate your job.
> 
> Seems like you'd be happier with a different career and then sailing with friends of your choice in your free time.


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## eherlihy

@Yamsailor; I've noticed in several threads that there has been a troll infestation on SailNet lately... That, and I'm getting old and cranky...


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## Yamsailor

For some reason there seems to be a prevailing opinion that licensed captains (in my case I have a Masters License) are necessarily no better trained than a recreational boater. Interesting given the average recreational boater spends less than 10 days/year out on the water. I spend on average 75 days out on the water and I teach classroom during the winter.



eherlihy said:


> @Yamsailor; I've noticed in several threads that there has been a troll infestation on SailNet lately... That, and I'm getting old and cranky...


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## caberg

eherlihy said:


> No, I said in the post from which you excerpted Were you unable to comprehend this?


I did read your whole post, which is why I observed that maybe you would be happier in a different career and only sailing recreationally with friends of your choice. You used two giant paragraphs to describe everything you dislike about being a charter captain (it was a lengthy list of complaints) and then tagged on briefly at the end that you do the job because you love sailing. It seemed like a fair observation that I made.


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## jephotog

To the OP:

Use the time with a Captain to your advantage. Use him to learn as much as you can. Demonstrate to him your ability to handle the boat on your own and hopefully he can recommend you be able to bareboat the second week of sailing. Tip him for his work, tip him well if he provides good service and helps your sailing skills along.


To those looking for reasons to stiff your servers, porters and captains shame on you. Some waiters are making $2/hr and Captains are making less than $150/day, a tip is part of their income. Like it or not tipping is part of the american culture and the quality of the service is reflected in this. If you are demanding as a group or the service you receive is excellent tip the crew well. If you can't afford the service, sail your own boat, park your own car and cook your own food.


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## jwing

If a Captain thinks that his service is worth more than $150/day then she/he should charge the client more than $150/day. How much the agent/charter company/broker charges to make the captain-client connection is a cost of doing the captain's business and should be negotiated by the captain and the agent. As a client, I care only about how much I pay vs. the value of the service; I don't give a rat's ass about how it gets divvied up after it leaves my hands.

I have no problem paying a gratuity when the value of the service exceeded the price of the service.

I do have a problem with being quoted a price and then _expected_ to pay more so that the service person can make a decent living. This goes for waiters, captains, and everybody else. I agree with Yamsailor: people who are professionals should charge a rate that is commensurate to their abilities. They should not have to depend on tips. So, professionals - set a fair price for your service and don't take jobs that depend on tips; customers - stop tipping for service that is not exceptional. The free market will work it out.


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## Yamsailor

RIGHT ON POINT!! If the over all market does not satisfy what I want to earn, I go do something else. While I very much appreciate my clients, I am not willing to work for what I believe to be unfair compensation for my skills sets. That being said, I do not depend on this work to pay my bills or rent.



jwing said:


> If a Captain thinks that his service is worth more than $150/day then she/he should charge the client more than $150/day. How much the agent/charter company/broker charges to make the captain-client connection is a cost of doing the captain's business and should be negotiated by the captain and the agent. As a client, I care only about how much I pay vs. the value of the service; I don't give a rat's ass about how it gets divvied up after it leaves my hands.
> 
> I have no problem paying a gratuity when the value of the service exceeded the price of the service.
> 
> I do have a problem with being quoted a price and then _expected_ to pay more so that the service person can make a decent living. This goes for waiters, captains, and everybody else. I agree with Yamsailor: people who are professionals should charge a rate that is commensurate to their abilities. They should not have to depend on tips. So, professionals - set a fair price for your service and don't take jobs that depend on tips; customers - stop tipping for service that is not exceptional. The free market will work it out.


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## Uricanejack

Yamsailor said:


> For some reason there seems to be a prevailing opinion that licensed captains (in my case I have a Masters License) are necessarily no better trained than a recreational boater. Interesting given the average recreational boater spends less than 10 days/year out on the water. I spend on average 75 days out on the water and I teach classroom during the winter.


Lets see. there are 52 weekends in a year 2 days per weekend adds up to 104 days for the weekend warriors. :smile


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## Yamsailor

Maybe in San Diego. But not in most of the country; if you look at all the NMMA and other professional organization surveys, most boaters use their boats less than 10 days/year.



Uricanejack said:


> Lets see. there are 52 weekends in a year 2 days per weekend adds up to 104 days for the weekend warriors. :smile


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## Uricanejack

The OP originally asked about how much you would tip. on a "bareboat" charter. A Skipper who he may wish to have for a f days up to a week if required.

So presumably the boat is paid for along with food and booze moorage by the charterers o would be doing their own cooking cleaning and fetching and pouring of drinks.
So a extra hand to run boat and give some instruction for a few days on a 40ft boat. I have no clue what the going rate is for this service. So depends. Tip given the description of service required I cant see the tip being based on anything but the extra cost for the charged for service. What that is? Depends where you are from. 

For me wouldn't expect a tip, or expect to be expected to tip. If we went ashore I'd by him his beer and dinner.

Of course I am from Scotland and lived and work with Geordies. Our idea of tip.

"Don't fry bacon in the nude". :smile

You go on holiday on a nice big fancy crewed charter yacht expecting to be waited on, catered for hand and foot by a crew of 1 or lots.
Its a completely different expectation. 

Even as a Scotsman I'd pony up a tip of a least a few shillings. Without mentioning bacon. :smile

I cant see why you would suggest one Skipper is more "professional" than the other so they should be tipped.

Dollar figures have been own out. As to going rate for Skippers.
I suppose it depends who what and where?

So what is a fair rate for a Skipper? For a day on a 40ft boat? what up to 6 pax?.

By "fair" I mean all inclusive. For pay and Just to run boat and instruct.

What would you do it for?


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## Uricanejack

Yamsailor said:


> Maybe in San Diego. But not in most of the country; if you look at all the NMMA and other professional organization surveys, most boaters use their boats less than 10 days/year.


Wow I often did more than that when I didn't even have a boat. 
My actual usage I would think is pretty unimpressive. though it varies quite a bit this year was very unimpressive to many other things going on yet I think I am about 40 ish. year not over yet.
But I am at the "parked and tarpped" stage just spent yesterday sitting drinking coffee listening to the rain.
Instead of sorting my electrical probs.
Quiet enjoyed it.


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## Minnewaska

Flat rate compensation means the service provider gets to decide what the professional standard is, before the customers gets to weigh in.


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## Minnesail

Yamsailor said:


> Maybe in San Diego. But not in most of the country; if you look at all the NMMA and other professional organization surveys, most boaters use their boats less than 10 days/year.


We have a short season and I got my boat in late, so I only had it in the water for 4 1/2 months. I used it 54 days. Plus I had 8 days on charter boats.

Anyway. I've never hired a captain, but this summer I did tag along on a charter Lagoon 38 with a friend who had hired a captain for the afternoon to help him refresh his catamaran docking skills. I'm not sure if he tipped him or not, but I probably would have given him an extra $50. They're not making a ton of money, these charter captains.


----------



## jephotog

jwing said:


> The free market will work it out.


Hopefully the free market is not being worked out when a sailnetter arrives for their 2 week captained charter to find a picket line at their dock.


----------



## Uricanejack

jephotog said:


> Hopefully the free market is not being worked out when a sailnetter arrives for their 2 week captained charter to find a picket line at their dock.


Do the Teamsters have a Local for charter Captainsirateraft:


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## Jammer Six

In six decades, I've never seen a picket line at a marina.

There's nothing there to picket. You're confused about who puts picket lines up, where they put them, and why.


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## danvon

Wow. 10 days a year? Given what it costs to own/maintain a boat that is truly a sad statistic.


----------



## Minnewaska

danvon said:


> Wow. 10 days a year? Given what it costs to own/maintain a boat that is truly a sad statistic.


You're right, but folks that buy boats typically love them and try to convince themselves they are going to use them more next year.

Small aircraft are exactly the same. I even know several pilots who lost their medical certification and still didn't sell their airplane, which they'll never be permitted to fly alone again. Last one I knew, kept it in his hangar for 20 years. He did routine maintenance for the first 10 years, then it just sat. He had bought it new, just before losing his medical. It looked like a museum piece. It was like he couldn't accept reality and he's not alone.

In both cases, the owners skills get rusty too, which further limits the conditions they are willing to go out in.


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## ianjoub

danvon said:


> Wow. 10 days a year? Given what it costs to own/maintain a boat that is truly a sad statistic.


And that is why I sold all of our boats. It is easier and cheaper to rent. When we retire, we will buy again.


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## jephotog

Jammer Six said:


> In six decades, I've never seen a picket line at a marina.
> 
> There's nothing there to picket. You're confused about who puts picket lines up, where they put them, and why.


I am well aware in the silliness of my picket line statement.

I used it to demonstrate the difficulties of the individual charter captain's plight against the large brokerages that are only willing to pay minimum wage. Eventually the market may right itself but it could take years, in the meantime it will be hard to survive on sub-$150/day on the trips when clients that don't tip because "It's not my fault the company screws it's employees."


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## capta

By the very nature of the beast, a bareboat skipper is NOT the captain. He is at most the "guide" responsible for making sure the "guests" do not do damage to the boat and it's systems. Bareboat charter guests are responsible for everything else. They steer, put up the sails, anchor and keep the boat clean, just as they would be if they were taking out the boat without the "guide".
He can teach and contribute by washing dishes and cooking (etc.) if he chooses to, but he is not required nor should he be expected to do so. On the other hand, you would not be taking out the boat without him, so he is serving his purpose being there with just that.
When I was doing bareboat trips in the VI (before cruising guides) I usually contributed my local knowledge by planning a route that would suit the desires of the charter guests. Sometimes they wanted nightlife so, knowing the good bars and where the bands were playing every night was the focus of the trip. Sometimes peace and quiet and deserted anchorages were what was desired and the plans were made for this. Occasionally some of the customers wanted one thing and the others something else. THAT was a balancing act, let me tell you. Most of the time I slept in the salon or cockpit, so until THEY went to bed, I couldn't! But once again, without me (or another skipper) that vacation would not have happened, because in those days nobody was hungry enough to send out a bareboat with unqualified guests, as they do today.
Did I expect a tip? If they had a great time, you're darn right I did! If they ever wanted me to be their skipper again, you betcha. You try living with 6 strangers for 7 to 10 days and pleasing everybody all the time. I worked my tail off to insure they had the very best time that I could provide, using my knowledge and experience to do so. Mind you the rate was us$75.00 a day back then, but that's not the point. Even at us$200 a day, I would expect a tip. That is how I judge how well I did. A handshake and a thank you is nice, but anybody can smile and say nice things, no matter what their real feelings are. A monetary reward shows that they enjoyed it enough to give you a few dollars of their hard earned money.
Good service in any person to person industry deserves a tip. How big a tip depends on how good the service is. I don't care if my waiter only gets a couple of bucks an hour from the house; he took the job knowing what the pay would be. If he's a lousy waiter, he gets a lousy tip. If he's a great waiter he gets a great tip. 15%? That means nothing to me; my tips reflect the level of service and I expect the same. I have no problem tipping a hundred bucks or more on a $200 tab, if the waitperson goes out of their way to make my wife's birthday meal memorable (in a good way, of course). You get what you pay for, except in this case it's after the fact.
A real class act and totally unexpected, is the rare owner who tips his full time crew at the end of his stay aboard. Boy does that make us feel like he had a grand time.


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## Yamsailor

I agree. That is why the sharing economy is taking hold with boats.



danvon said:


> Wow. 10 days a year? Given what it costs to own/maintain a boat that is truly a sad statistic.


----------



## Jammer Six

What's an example of a "large brokerage"?


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## Jammer Six

capta said:


> By the very nature of the beast, a bareboat skipper is NOT the captain.


That could be because there is no captain on a bareboat. That's what "bareboat" means.


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## jephotog

Jammer Six said:


> What's an example of a "large brokerage"?


I meant "The Man", keeping the little guy down. Bernie fans know what i am talking about.:wink


----------



## capta

jephotog said:


> I used it to demonstrate the difficulties of the individual charter captain's plight against the large brokerages that are only willing to pay minimum wage. Eventually the market may right itself but it could take years, in the meantime it will be hard to survive on sub-$150/day on the trips when clients that don't tip because "It's not my fault the company screws it's employees."


I don't understand your point. If someone takes a job that they know they won't be able to survive on, then that's on the person, not the company, just like with waitstaff.
There is no "minimum wage" in this industry, to the best of my knowledge. Most get paid for their qualifications. The bigger the ticket and the more experience, the more pay. On my last job, running a day boat, I was paid 3 times what my predecessor was paid and for the first time the boat made money. It behooved the owner to find a more qualified captain and pay him more. On sailing day boats I often give ALL the tips to my crew, by the way. They do the WORK, I just have the responsibility. And stand around looking "captainish", of course. lol


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## Jammer Six

jephotog said:


> I meant "The Man", keeping the little guy down. Bernie fans know what i am talking about.:wink


Oh, I see. The undefined, unknown, insubstantial, phantasmal whisp that exist just out of sight, only in the mind, that is responsible for every fear, mistake and failure of the speaker.

That guy. Of course. My brother in laws used to speak of him often. Of course, they're dead, now.


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## SVAuspicious

jephotog said:


> I used it to demonstrate the difficulties of the individual charter captain's plight against the large brokerages that are only willing to pay minimum wage. Eventually the market may right itself but it could take years, in the meantime it will be hard to survive on sub-$150/day on the trips when clients that don't tip because "It's not my fault the company screws it's employees."


Interesting. The market I'm in--based in Annapolis with deliveries mostly US East Coast and Caribbean--the only folks making anything close to minimum wage are boat cleaners and people at West Marine; even they do a good bit better than minimum wage. No one is getting rich doing yacht deliveries but if you can stay busy you won't starve. Full-time captains do okay.

Most of the larger brokerages don't quibble over pay - they either accept the number or move on. Reliability is key. Once you move a few boats for a brokerage, show up on time, take care of the boat, and give a meaningful report at the end they come back again and again. The small brokerages are the ones that sometimes pay slowly or try to bargain, especially if it is their money instead of the boat owner's. *grin* Accepting credit cards helps a lot.

On the subject of reliability it seems a lot of people who call themselves delivery skippers leave customers in a lurch by not showing up, imposing unreasonable restrictions, being hard to schedule, and other unfortunate characteristics.

In my fashion, some stories:

Last year, I temporarily lost a bid to move a boat from Annapolis to Norfolk. The owner was very clear that he thought my day rate was too high and found someone who would do the job for half. I wished him well. The owner soon realized the "cheap" skipper would cost about 850 (three days down the Bay, two marinas, dinners, fuel, and transportation home. My more expensive rate cost the owner less than 600 because I sailed straight through, no stops for marinas, and ate on the boat.

One small brokerage for whom I am now the regular "boat mover" first called me because they had to move a customer boat for service. They had a service appointment that included coordination with the broker, the service company, the engine manufacturer, and the boat builder so time was important. Their regular skipper was waffling about dates and times. The boat was a three year old express cruiser that had yet to get up on plane. People had been working on the starboard engine for three years. So off I go on what would otherwise be a quick run but will take three or four hours at 6 kts. I obviously have lots of time so I was fiddling around with the displays and find the outdrive trim for the port drive was running from full down to full up and back on about a 15 second cycle. Huh. Some more fiddling and I figured out how to override automatic trim control and run the drives down. Push the throttles forward and suddenly going 30 mph. Well I don't trust anyone including myself so I dropped down and went back on plane half a dozen times. Hmm. Working. So off I go at 40 mph and in a few minutes I'm at the entrance channel to the service yard about two hours early; I'm in the lift well when people get in to work - plenty of time to call the broker and the owner and tell them what I found. The next day with a new angle sensor and updated firmware in every computer on the boat and life is good. The owner can hardly believe his troubles are finally over. *grin* Another day later while I'm sitting in the brokerage office going over details the other delivery skipper walks in to ask when they want him to move the boat. *grin*

I moved a boat from Ft Lauderdale to Norfolk. The owner met us there and was kind enough to take the crew and me to dinner. After listening to stories from the trip and Q&A he changed his plan to spend a week taking the boat the rest of the way to Barneget single-handed and asked me to stay on and sail with him. Underway we talked about sail trim, tides, currents, navigation, and general boat "stuff." At the end of the trip he told me he had more confidence in himself and his boat than ever before and was grateful for the experience.

The delivery skippers who stay busy are the ones who leave those sorts of experiences in their wake. Reputation is everything. That's why people like the late Jon Eisberg and me get repeat business and word of month referrals.

Today I'm off on the oddest "delivery" I have ever done but that is a story for another time.


----------



## eherlihy

Dave's story above is great, and while appreciated, is a little off topic.

Back on topic, the OP asked if he should provide a gratuitity to the captain assigned to him. It seems to me that the overwhelming consensus from those of us that work in the industry is "yes," while some of those that don't say "no."

The topic of gratuities come up in SailNet from time to time. I stated in another thread that because I work part time I usually have a choice about the clients that I take. Those that I don't know, I will gladly take, and I will put forth my best effort to entertain, in the hope that their grattitude is expressed in more than a "thank you." Those clients that I have taken in the past and have provided me with a gratuity, I will gladly take again, and I will work extra hard to impress. Those that have not provided a gratuity can find another captain.

I will say that the above applies to when I am a subcontractor to provide my services on boats that I don't own. If I have a client on _my_ boat (and it has happened on more than one occasion), I do not expect a gratuity, as I set my price at a reasonable level. The gratuity that I work for is to have the client come back, and recommend me to their friends.


----------



## SVAuspicious

eherlihy said:


> Dave's story above is great, and while appreciated, is a little off topic.


I agree. I took @jephotog's off-hand comment and ran down a rabbit hole with it. My apologies.

On topic, I think there are two separate issues.

First is the cultural expectations. Like it or not, charter captains work in an industry where tips are part of the expectation and prices to the customer and pay to the captain are set accordingly. Delivery skippers and full-time captains are generally not tipped.

Second is the discussion of what is "right" or "best." Sometimes as in this case reality may not be what is right or best.


----------



## cobradvm

eherlihy said:


> Dave's story above is great, and while appreciated, is a little off topic.
> 
> Back on topic, the OP asked if he should provide a gratuitity to the captain assigned to him. It seems to me that the overwhelming consensus from those of us that work in the industry is "yes," while those that don't say "no."


Thanks for all the responses to my original question. Just to clarify a little, what I was asking was not whether a tip is appropriate - I will most certainly be tipping, but what to base it on. On a fully crewed charter where the guests just sit back and are waited on hand and foot so to speak, I would consider tipping 15-20% of the complete charter fee. So if the charter cost $10k, then $1500 to $2000.

However on a bareboat, the skipper is there to make sure we don't inadvertently damage the boat due to our inexperience etc, but is not responsible for much else (food, navigation, cleaning etc etc), I would think it more appropriate to tip him based on his pay. So if he was being paid $250 a day, then 15 to 20% of that.


----------



## capta

cobradvm said:


> Thanks for all the responses to my original question. Just to clarify a little, what I was asking was not whether a tip is appropriate - I will most certainly be tipping, but what to base it on. On a fully crewed charter where the guests just sit back and are waited on hand and foot so to speak, I would consider tipping 15-20% of the complete charter fee. So if the charter cost $10k, then $1500 to $2000.
> 
> However on a bareboat, the skipper is there to make sure we don't inadvertently damage the boat due to our inexperience etc, but is not responsible for much else (food, navigation, cleaning etc etc), I would think it more appropriate to tip him based on his pay. So if he was being paid $250 a day, then 15 to 20% of that.


At 15% that would work out to about a day's pay, which I should think was quite fair for an OK experience.


----------



## jephotog

SVAuspicious said:


> I agree. I took @jephotog's off-hand comment and ran down a rabbit hole with it. My apologies.


I apologize if my offhand remarks have lead to offenses to those in this industry. My observations come from my industry, which is aviation as a corporate pilot. I initially moved to the coast to get my marine captain's license but ended up with a different captain's license. I think many was the two industries are very similar.

In my experience, in the aviation industry the brokers are generally despised. There is no standard or licensing to the brokerage industry. Some may have some knowledge of industry but some may not. Their primary job is to sell trips, often at any cost, like undercutting the expense of the pilots as all other costs are fixed. Granted pilots are an expensive group of primaddonas, but you need them to safely operate the plane and you hope they are good at what they do, well fed and well rested. The other things brokers do is promise things to clients that is not possible, safe, or legal to make a sale. The Captain is then stuck with trying to make it happen or pissing off the client and everyone above him, which includes the broker who made the mess.

I am glad to see there is a better level of integrity in the marine broker industry. With aviation there are currently severe upward forces now on the industry and opportunities, pay and treatment are greatly improving. When I have shopped chartering a boat somewhere the Captains fees are always around $200/day, some of which the Captain may not get. Somehow there are forces keeping the pay to boat captains to the bare minimum.

Earlier someone mentioned, "I don't tip the airplane captain." As a charter captain I was often tipped. One guy tipped me $5 on each leg for handling his luggage. He must have thought I was the bell-hop. Another guy tipped me $300 for an evening flight up the coast to Santa Barbara for dinner. I found it funny after a lifetime in the service industry when I finally had a "real job" and was still bucking for tips.


----------



## Yamsailor

SVAuspicious's comments should not be taken lightly! I also deliver yachts. Reliability/Trust is everything in this business. I get called back time and time again from the same people because they know I am reliable. I have had others outbid me by submitting a lower bid to do the job, and in 85-90% of the cases I find out the Captain who outbid me never actually did the work. In these cases, the boat doesn't get moved.



SVAuspicious said:


> Interesting. The market I'm in--based in Annapolis with deliveries mostly US East Coast and Caribbean--the only folks making anything close to minimum wage are boat cleaners and people at West Marine; even they do a good bit better than minimum wage. No one is getting rich doing yacht deliveries but if you can stay busy you won't starve. Full-time captains do okay.
> 
> Most of the larger brokerages don't quibble over pay - they either accept the number or move on. Reliability is key. Once you move a few boats for a brokerage, show up on time, take care of the boat, and give a meaningful report at the end they come back again and again. The small brokerages are the ones that sometimes pay slowly or try to bargain, especially if it is their money instead of the boat owner's. *grin* Accepting credit cards helps a lot.
> 
> On the subject of reliability it seems a lot of people who call themselves delivery skippers leave customers in a lurch by not showing up, imposing unreasonable restrictions, being hard to schedule, and other unfortunate characteristics.
> 
> In my fashion, some stories:
> 
> Last year, I temporarily lost a bid to move a boat from Annapolis to Norfolk. The owner was very clear that he thought my day rate was too high and found someone who would do the job for half. I wished him well. The owner soon realized the "cheap" skipper would cost about 850 (three days down the Bay, two marinas, dinners, fuel, and transportation home. My more expensive rate cost the owner less than 600 because I sailed straight through, no stops for marinas, and ate on the boat.
> 
> One small brokerage for whom I am now the regular "boat mover" first called me because they had to move a customer boat for service. They had a service appointment that included coordination with the broker, the service company, the engine manufacturer, and the boat builder so time was important. Their regular skipper was waffling about dates and times. The boat was a three year old express cruiser that had yet to get up on plane. People had been working on the starboard engine for three years. So off I go on what would otherwise be a quick run but will take three or four hours at 6 kts. I obviously have lots of time so I was fiddling around with the displays and find the outdrive trim for the port drive was running from full down to full up and back on about a 15 second cycle. Huh. Some more fiddling and I figured out how to override automatic trim control and run the drives down. Push the throttles forward and suddenly going 30 mph. Well I don't trust anyone including myself so I dropped down and went back on plane half a dozen times. Hmm. Working. So off I go at 40 mph and in a few minutes I'm at the entrance channel to the service yard about two hours early; I'm in the lift well when people get in to work - plenty of time to call the broker and the owner and tell them what I found. The next day with a new angle sensor and updated firmware in every computer on the boat and life is good. The owner can hardly believe his troubles are finally over. *grin* Another day later while I'm sitting in the brokerage office going over details the other delivery skipper walks in to ask when they want him to move the boat. *grin*
> 
> I moved a boat from Ft Lauderdale to Norfolk. The owner met us there and was kind enough to take the crew and me to dinner. After listening to stories from the trip and Q&A he changed his plan to spend a week taking the boat the rest of the way to Barneget single-handed and asked me to stay on and sail with him. Underway we talked about sail trim, tides, currents, navigation, and general boat "stuff." At the end of the trip he told me he had more confidence in himself and his boat than ever before and was grateful for the experience.
> 
> The delivery skippers who stay busy are the ones who leave those sorts of experiences in their wake. Reputation is everything. That's why people like the late Jon Eisberg and me get repeat business and word of month referrals.
> 
> Today I'm off on the oddest "delivery" I have ever done but that is a story for another time.


----------



## Yamsailor

Ditto.



eherlihy said:


> Dave's story above is great, and while appreciated, is a little off topic.
> 
> Back on topic, the OP asked if he should provide a gratuitity to the captain assigned to him. It seems to me that the overwhelming consensus from those of us that work in the industry is "yes," while some of those that don't say "no."
> 
> The topic of gratuities come up in SailNet from time to time. I stated in another thread that because I work part time I usually have a choice about the clients that I take. Those that I don't know, I will gladly take, and I will put forth my best effort to entertain, in the hope that their grattitude is expressed in more than a "thank you." Those clients that I have taken in the past and have provided me with a gratuity, I will gladly take again, and I will work extra hard to impress. Those that have not provided a gratuity can find another captain.
> 
> I will say that the above applies to when I am a subcontractor to provide my services on boats that I don't own. If I have a client on _my_ boat (and it has happened on more than one occasion), I do not expect a gratuity, as I set my price at a reasonable level. The gratuity that I work for is to have the client come back, and recommend me to their friends.


----------



## capta

jephotog said:


> I apologize if my offhand remarks have lead to offenses to those in this industry. My observations come from my industry, which is aviation as a corporate pilot.


I find this interesting. I've run a few yachts for owners with private and/or corporate planes and I've met many of the pilots. Some have said that when home and not flying, they were required to be in the office 9 to 5 doing whatever they were asked, mainly filing. I've never heard of a marine captain being asked to do that. That would be a 'deal' breaker for me, let me tell you.
Perhaps one of the biggest differences between a sea captain and a pilot regarding tips is the difference in accessibility. A pilot is most often behind a door, separated from his passengers, whereas a good part of a boat captain's job is interacting with his passengers. A pilot certainly can't sit down to dinner or hang out with a cocktail telling 'air stories' to his passengers, can they? I'd bet the good stews on private/corporate planes get tipped well.
And you're right, I was shocked at how low the pay was, especially as they don't get room and board as we do. I'd never have been able to put my kids through college on that sort of salary.
It seems the wild blue yonder doesn't pay as well as the deep blue sea!


----------



## Arcb

This might seem pedantic Jeptohog, but wages for boat Captains are only low in certain segments. Small charter yacht Captains often have lowish wages, but as Capta mentioned earlier, the pay is proportionate to the certification and experience of the skipper and the complexity of the boat and voyage.

The average pay of a boat (not ship) Captain in the US, according to SalaryExpert.com is $83703/year.

US bereau of labor statistics listed average salary of a boat captain at $76000/year in 2013.

Only the bottom 10% of boat Captains were listed below $33500/year. I would imagine these would be your small charter yacht and water taxi Captains.


----------



## caberg

Yamsailor said:


> SVAuspicious's comments should not be taken lightly! I also deliver yachts. Reliability/Trust is everything in this business.


Shouldn't that go without saying? And applicable to almost every service-based business?


----------



## Yamsailor

Yes. Never the less, you would be surprised at the number of unreliable captains out there.



caberg said:


> Shouldn't that go without saying? And applicable to almost every service-based business?


----------



## Jammer Six

cobradvm said:


> However on a bareboat, the skipper is there to make sure we don't inadvertently damage the boat due to our inexperience etc, but is not responsible for much else (food, navigation, cleaning etc etc), I would think it more appropriate to tip him based on his pay. So if he was being paid $250 a day, then 15 to 20% of that.


No.

Take a class.

A bareboat is a bareboat, and does not come with food, drink or a skipper.

No drink, no service, no shirt, no shoes. Just a bareboat.

That's why it's called a bareboat.

You wouldn't be able to charter a bareboat, because you're not qualified to do so.


----------



## Minnewaska

There is simply no disputing that in the OP's scenario, BVI custom requires a tip for acceptable or better service. 

I do agree that this should be made clear by those selling the service. The fact they don't, however, does not absolve the client of the responsibility. A reasonable person would ask for clarification, given the obvious personal service involved.


----------



## jephotog

Jammer Six said:


> No.
> 
> Take a class.


He has. He is ASA 104 certified. Since he also said "I've crewed on a J33 during beercans" I am assumed he is light on real world experience as a Captain. I am glad to see a charter company is looking for more than an ASA card and a credit card before letting someone take a boat.


----------



## jephotog

capta said:


> I find this interesting. I've run a few yachts for owners with private and/or corporate planes and I've met many of the pilots.


Before hijacking this thread I will start a new thread on sailing vs flying careers.


----------



## capta

jephotog said:


> Before hijacking this thread I will start a new thread on sailing vs flying careers.


Sorry. I thought it was apropos, but if I offended, you have my apologies.


----------



## capta

Jammer Six said:


> No.
> 
> Take a class.
> 
> A bareboat is a bareboat, and does not come with food, drink or a skipper.
> No drink, no service, no shirt, no shoes. Just a bareboat.
> That's why it's called a bareboat.


In fact, you can arrive at your "bareboat" to find it fully provisioned, stocked with your favorite beverages and even with a cook and/or skipper happily standing there greeting you.
It's only a bare boat if that's what you pay for.


----------



## capta

Jammer Six said:


> No.
> 
> Take a class.
> 
> A bareboat is a bareboat, and does not come with food, drink or a skipper.
> No drink, no service, no shirt, no shoes. Just a bareboat.
> That's why it's called a bareboat.


In fact, you can arrive at your "bareboat" to find it fully provisioned, stocked with your favorite beverages and even with a cook and/or skipper happily standing there greeting you. Take a look at your options when you are on the "bareboat" charter company sites.
It's only a bare boat if that's what you pay for.


----------



## jephotog

capta said:


> Sorry. I thought it was apropos, but if I offended, you have my apologies.


Nope you have not managed to offend me yet, just feel that aviation vs marine might be worth a thread on its own and don't want to hijack this thread.


----------



## midwesterner

Landwalker said:


> My biggest issue with tipping isn't the concept, it's the assumption of common knowledge. If tipping is expected, then I'd better be _told upfront_ that it's expected, or else I'm not going to know that I'm "supposed" to tip (and I'm not going to do it). Hardly anywhere bothers to make this clear, however. Anyone who grew up in the U.S. knows about tipping waitstaff at a restaurant because it's so common, but chartering or hired skippering isn't exactly something that most of the country grows up around. If I didn't know any better, I would treat it the same way I treat a plumber or an accountant or an attorney or a doctor?they tell me how much it costs, and I pay them that amount.


That exactly describes my experience. We are not wealthy people and planned our first charter, which may well be a once-in-a-lifetime experience for us.

We did a five day Cruise and Learn vacation that was the equivalent of ASA 101, 103 & 104. The invoice broke down each cost such as the basic five day boat lease, bed linen rentals, a fee for early boarding the night before, and $800 for the instructor.

I told the booking agent up front that I was a complete newbie and had never done any boat charter before . The booking agent spent a great deal of time on the phone with me explaining everything since this was our first time doing anything like this. She did an excellent job of treating me like we were new and dear friends.

I am well accustomed to tipping culture in the US with respect to restaurant wait staff, hotel maids and bellmen, and airport skycaps. We had an embarrassing moment when we went out to dinner with our sailing instructor for a pre-sail dinner. When the check arrived and she didn't offer any money or ask for separate checks we realized that we were probably expected to pay for meals. This had not occurred to us.

The next morning, I called the booking office before we sailed and asked my booking agent friend about the custom. She confirmed that it was customary that a customer pay for all the meals for the instructor. It would have been nice if she had also told me that generally they receive a tip as well, because they do not receive but a portion of the $800 skipper fee.

We had a great time and felt like we connected with our instructor. Now I feel really bad because I understand why our parting seemed a little uncomfortable. I wish someone had clued me in. I'm not a cheap person and I do believe in compensating people for good work. It was a very expensive trip for us and there were many unexpected costs. I was working hard to keep the cost of our trip from going too far beyond our budget. I feel bad now knowing that we came across as stingy people.


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## Jammer Six

Well, ASA was his mistake.

If he'd taken U.S. Sailing, one of his classes would have been entitled "Bareboat", and he wouldn't be calling a charter a bareboat unless his boat had no captain. 

ASA. Jesus.

(All said with tongue-in-cheek, and a U.S. Sailing-vs.-ASA smiley. I've seen the ads for fully provisioned bareboat charters, and us U.S. Sailing crews have sat in pubs and debated if they were still bareboat charters. Then we had more beer, and debated paper vs. electronic and wooden vs. plastic.)


----------



## eherlihy

midwesterner said:


> That exactly describes my experience. We are not wealthy people and planned our first charter, which may well be a once-in-a-lifetime experience for us.
> 
> We did a five day Cruise and Learn vacation that was the equivalent of ASA 101, 103 & 104. The invoice broke down each cost such as the basic five day boat lease, bed linen rentals, a fee for early boarding the night before, and $800 for the instructor.
> 
> I told the booking agent up front that I was a complete newbie and had never done any boat charter before . The booking agent spent a great deal of time on the phone with me explaining everything since this was our first time doing anything like this. She did an excellent job of treating me like we were new and dear friends.
> 
> I am well accustomed to tipping culture in the US with respect to restaurant wait staff, hotel maids and bellmen, and airport skycaps. We had an embarrassing moment when we went out to dinner with our sailing instructor for a pre-sail dinner. When the check arrived and she didn't offer any money or ask for separate checks we realized that we were probably expected to pay for meals. This had not occurred to us.
> 
> The next morning, I called the booking office before we sailed and asked my booking agent friend about the custom. She confirmed that it was customary that a customer pay for all the meals for the instructor. It would have been nice if she had also told me that generally they receive a tip as well, because they do not receive but a portion of the $800 skipper fee.
> 
> We had a great time and felt like we connected with our instructor. Now I feel really bad because I understand why our parting seemed a little uncomfortable. I wish someone had clued me in. I'm not a cheap person and I do believe in compensating people for good work. It was a very expensive trip for us and there were many unexpected costs. I was working hard to keep the cost of our trip from going too far beyond our budget. I feel bad now knowing that we came across as stingy people.


Thank you for this! I 100% agree that the responsibility to inform the client of the customs and practices should take place before you set sail, and in my opinion should take place before the a cruise/course is booked. I try to address this when I am first introduced to the students. It is also why I have contribuited based on my experience to this thread.

Midwesterner, you can make up for it by tipping your next instructor, or your captain appropriately.


----------



## Minnewaska

I understand that it is possible not to realize that a tip for the Captain is customary and still think the charter company should explain this clearly.

However, I also think it is the customer's responsibility to research this issue, when traveling. If caught by surprise, one would still have to accept responsibility for not thinking of it.

I just looked up the Moorings website (probably the largest worldwide charter company) and they do address it. Interesting difference between crewed yachts and daily skippers. Not sure which they would consider an instructor aboard for a week.

Frequently Asked Questions | The Moorings



> The quality of service should dictate the gratuity. As a guideline, we suggest an average of 10-15% of the total charter cost for Crewed Yacht Charters, and 10-15% of the daily Skipper fee for Bareboat Sailing or Power Yacht Charters.


I think a "parting that seemed uncomfortable" would have been obvious to most and correctable at the time. If one figured this out after the fact, would they consider mailing a check to their instructor/captain? If I truly didn't have the proper tip amount in my budget, I would still send something and a note to explain the situation. Perhaps the captain would become motivated to inspire the charter company to make this more clear next.

However, I did peruse a few charter websites and one sailing school and every single one has the crew tipping custom/suggestion within their FAQ section.


----------



## SVAuspicious

jephotog said:


> I apologize if my offhand remarks have lead to offenses to those in this industry.


Your comment was one of the innocent thoughts that happen in every thread as topics wander about, hopefully averaging out to the subject at hand.

I was the one who turned your sentence into a dissertation. I got a little carried away. *grin* It won't be the last time.


----------



## eherlihy

SVAuspicious said:


> I apologize if my offhand remarks have lead to offenses to those in this industry.
> 
> 
> 
> Your comment was one of the innocent thoughts that happen in every thread as topics wander about, hopefully averaging out to the subject at hand.
> 
> I was the one who turned your sentence into a dissertation. I got a little carried away. *grin* It won't be the last time.
Click to expand...

THIS level of civility is why I participate here, and not in SA.:smile


----------



## Uricanejack

midwesterner said:


> That exactly describes my experience. We are not wealthy people and planned our first charter, which may well be a once-in-a-lifetime experience for us.
> 
> We did a five day Cruise and Learn vacation that was the equivalent of ASA 101, 103 & 104. The invoice broke down each cost such as the basic five day boat lease, bed linen rentals, a fee for early boarding the night before, and $800 for the instructor.
> 
> I told the booking agent up front that I was a complete newbie and had never done any boat charter before . The booking agent spent a great deal of time on the phone with me explaining everything since this was our first time doing anything like this. She did an excellent job of treating me like we were new and dear friends.
> 
> I am well accustomed to tipping culture in the US with respect to restaurant wait staff, hotel maids and bellmen, and airport skycaps. We had an embarrassing moment when we went out to dinner with our sailing instructor for a pre-sail dinner. When the check arrived and she didn't offer any money or ask for separate checks we realized that we were probably expected to pay for meals. This had not occurred to us.
> 
> The next morning, I called the booking office before we sailed and asked my booking agent friend about the custom. She confirmed that it was customary that a customer pay for all the meals for the instructor. It would have been nice if she had also told me that generally they receive a tip as well, because they do not receive but a portion of the $800 skipper fee.
> 
> We had a great time and felt like we connected with our instructor. Now I feel really bad because I understand why our parting seemed a little uncomfortable. I wish someone had clued me in. I'm not a cheap person and I do believe in compensating people for good work. It was a very expensive trip for us and there were many unexpected costs. I was working hard to keep the cost of our trip from going too far beyond our budget. I feel bad now knowing that we came across as stingy people.


I would say there is no need to feel bad. 
I used to do 5 day Cruise and learn trips as an instructor.
I did not expect my drinks or dinner to be paid for or a tip. But I am not American and Not in the BVI. 
It was a while ago. Each student paid a fee for the course. 
To my mind a cruise and learn is not a charter. Regardless of how the invoice is written.
There was food supplied for meals for each day. I helped with cooking cleaning etcetera but did not do it.
Going out for a meal was an optional extra. 
If I went to a pub or restaurant with my students I always offered to pay my own way. 
If the students offered to by my dinner or drinks I gratefully accepted.
We were expected to return boat clean at end of the trip. I helped with this. 
I was not tipped.

It was a quite a few years ago. I think I was paid about $125 a day. Which at the time I thought was quite reasonable. The going rates today I don't know.

I have also gone on cruise and learn trips with the same school. I paid a course fee. I bought the instructor a beer in the pub. I was much more impressed with the guy whos wallet came out. I bought his drinks.
When the instructors wallet stayed in his pocket. It reflects poorly on him, I would nd refuse to by his beer but I wouldn't be impressed. Or likely to ask him to come to the pub with me the next time.
I saw no reason to tip at the end.

We parted friends. nothing uncomfortable.

If your instructor made you feel uncomfortable or bad. I am not impressed with the instructor.


----------



## midwesterner

Uricanejack said:


> If your instructor made you feel uncomfortable or bad. I am not impressed with the instructor.


The instructor did nothing to make us feel uncomfortable. She was very gracious. It was all my own concern. We purchased all of the food and stocked the boat and the three of us, my wife and I, and the instructor, shared the cooking and cleanup. I'm an old backpacker and float camper and have always subscribed to a custom that everyone on a trip should take their turn at food preparation and clean-up. We observed that rule on this cruise and learn charter.

Our first night out at dinner we hadn't even thought about who pays. When the bill came she sat and let us pay the total bill. When she excused herself to go to the bathroom my wife and I talked about it and said, "That's interesting, she seems very nice and very polite but it seems clear that she expected us to pay for dinner. I wonder if it's considered customary for us to cover all meals this week?"

That's when I called our booking person the next morning and asked her advice. She said that yes, it was customary for the customers to cover meals. This was in Canada and we are from the US. Our instructor was a modest eater and a very light drinker so her portion of the dinner and drink tab was never exorbitant.

Our instructor recognized pretty quickly that we were not part of the wealthy yachting set. She was very considerate and flexible and on the two nights that we stayed in a marina she checked with us as to whether we preferred to go to town and eat in a restaurant or fix something on the boat. She made it clear that she would be just as happy to fix dinner on the boat as opposed to eating out.

She was familiar with the ports where we stayed. We chose to splurge and eat out both nights because we were on vacation. She was very good about advising us on the various costs at the different restaurants so we could choose the price level we were most comfortable with.

There was nothing about our parting that felt clearly uncomfortable at the time. It wasn't until I encountered this thread that I started thinking back and wondering if we were expected to tip. I have seen nothing in the frequently asked questions at this charter company's site.


----------



## Uricanejack

midwesterner said:


> The instructor did nothing to make us feel uncomfortable. She was very gracious. It was all my own concern. We purchased all of the food and stocked the boat and the three of us, my wife and I, and the instructor, shared the cooking and cleanup. I'm an old backpacker and float camper and have always subscribed to a custom that everyone on a trip should take their turn at food preparation and clean-up. We observed that rule on this cruise and learn charter.
> 
> Our first night out at dinner we hadn't even thought about who pays. When the bill came she sat and let us pay the total bill. When she excused herself to go to the bathroom my wife and I talked about it and said, "That's interesting, she seems very nice and very polite but it seems clear that she expected us to pay for dinner. I wonder if it's considered customary for us to cover all meals this week?"
> 
> That's when I called our booking person the next morning and asked her advice. She said that yes, it was customary for the customers to cover meals. This was in Canada and we are from the US. Our instructor was a modest eater and a very light drinker so her portion of the dinner and drink tab was never exorbitant.
> 
> Our instructor recognized pretty quickly that we were not part of the wealthy yachting set. She was very considerate and flexible and on the two nights that we stayed in a marina she checked with us as to whether we preferred to go to town and eat in a restaurant or fix something on the boat. She made it clear that she would be just as happy to fix dinner on the boat as opposed to eating out.
> 
> She was familiar with the ports where we stayed. We chose to splurge and eat out both nights because we were on vacation. She was very good about advising us on the various costs at the different restaurants so we could choose the price level we were most comfortable with.
> 
> There was nothing about our parting that felt clearly uncomfortable at the time. It wasn't until I encountered this thread that I started thinking back and wondering if we were expected to tip. I have seen nothing in the frequently asked questions at this charter company's site.


I wouldn't worry about it then, at least not if your concerns are based on this thread.

I instructed in Canada, As I said I never expected a tip.

Perhalps it's just me. And the School I instructed for. Others might.

I always treated students the same and would say most were not wealthy. A few were but the nice ones didn't advertise it.


----------



## capta

If the situation was reversed and I was the guest, I would unquestioningly invite the skipper to join us for a dinner out on us. I would not expect him to bring out his wallet.
When I was doing that job I honestly can only remember it not happening once. We were at the Bitter End and I just jumped in the water by Saba Rock, grabbed a lobster and ate like a king anyway. Maybe I left an antenna or leg around for them to find?
I have had honeymoon couples who paid for my meal out, but we sat apart so they had their privacy. It sort of felt uncomfortable and I probably would have preferred to eat elsewhere (on me) or stay aboard. Most guests become friends and come back over and over again so eating out together, even on the first trip, is a social thing and we have fun.


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## Minnewaska

Uricanejack said:


> .....But I am not American and Not in the BVI. .......


One's nationality is irrelevant, only the custom of the location you visit. However, comparing experiences between different locations is also irrelevant. You leave a tip on the bar in NYC, not in London. You need to know this before you go, or ask when you get there.


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## Minnewaska

midwesterner said:


> ...This was in Canada and we are from the US. ......


I confused you with the OP along the way, as I thought we were talking about the BVI. Still, have you considered sending something after the fact, if it was seemingly customary? Have you called the charter company since to ask? You asked about the dinner, after all. Would you mind share the company's name? Where did you cruise?


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## Arcb

If Midwestern paid for all her dinners, I think he has done more than enough. Workers rights are pretty well protected in Canada. If this was a country where the skipper truly needed the tip to feed themselves it might be another matter, but you know in a place like Canada, any one who is being exploited by a charter company is doing it eyes wide open and clearly has a choice to work elsewhere.

I'm wondering by this storey if she was getting paid at all, I have known people who do charters for free just for the commercial sea time. This is their choice, there are lots of other paid ways to get sea time, it's just that nobody calls you skipper in those jobs.

Honestly, I don't want a tip based marine industry to even exist in Canada. It sounds like this company has imported what they have learned elsewhere. Mailing a tip to the skipper only encourages poor pay. If this company wants employees they should pay them.

Edit:The marine industry in Canada has a very short season. In Canada, seasonal workers receive a compensation from the government called employment insurance. It's a substantial check monthly, $2000, enough to live on from September to June if some one had to. EI is based on your salary, not on tips. So any company not paying their staff are really screwing them. 

I would be much happier seeing these folks not get their tips, quit their jobs and force these charter companies to either close down or start paying.

If we accept this stuff, we would just be turning Canada into another banana republic.

This is my opinion for Canada only, other countries where this kind of economy already exists are a different matter entirely.


----------



## midwesterner

After reading the various comments I'm not sure I committed any faux pas. We were charged a sizable fee on our invoice that was labeled "Onboard Instructor", we bought all of the onboard food and alcohol and paid for all of the meals ashore, except one morning when our instructor went somewhere alone for breakfast.


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## Minnewaska

Arcb said:


> ....If we accept this stuff, we would just be turning Canada into another banana republic.......


Huh?? Tipping is very common in Canada.


----------



## Arcb

Minnewaska said:


> Arcb said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....If we accept this stuff, we would just be turning Canada into another banana republic.......
> 
> 
> 
> Huh?? Tipping is very common in Canada.
Click to expand...

Not in the Marine industry it isn't. The issue here is season length and the impact it has on people's EI claims. It doesn't matter at a restaurant that is open year round.

My wife works at a spa and receives tips, but again, spas are open year round.


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## Minnewaska

Got it, the rest of Canada is a banana republic then.


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## Arcb

Minnewaska said:


> Got it, the rest of Canada is a banana republic then.


I don't think you appreciate how important it is for people to accumulate enough hours to collect ei which is calculated at %54 of your best 5 weeks salary. The pay has to be on the books for it to be eligible.

Minimum wage in Ontario is 12.55 an hour, however, if you are a server or wilderness guide the minimum wage is considerably less. Pretty hard to live on %54 of $9/hour.

That's why I'm saying you are not doing any one any favours if you select a charter company that is focused on gratuities rather than just paying the Captain.


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## Minnewaska

I don't think whether a tipping system should exist or not has much to do with these EI benefits. If the benefits are desirable, then declare the tips as income. They are supposed to be reported as income up north, yes?


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## Arcb

Minnewaska said:


> I don't think whether a tipping system should exist or not has much to do with these EI benefits. If the benefits are desirable, then declare the tips as income. They are supposed to be reported as income up north, yes?


Your statement is correct in theory, but I am talking about the practical reality of making a living as a professional sailor in a country with a 2 month sailing season. Tips should absolutely be claimed as income, although they rarely are, which is basically just stealing from the rest of us who do pay our income tax.

In practice, the way the system works is at the end of the season, maybe around mid October, maybe sooner, a skipper gets his lay off from his primary employer. If he has any other companies he was moonlighting with, he lets them know he needs his ROE.

He takes that one or several ROEs and sends them off to HRSDC, a month later, maybe around the middle of November, he gets his check for $1000, which he continues to get every two weeks until spring. He uses that money to heat his home, buy his groceries, buy Christmas presents for his kids etc. There are no real questions asked, every one knows work in Canada can be highly seasonal and boat captain is clearly seasonal work.

If a skipper were able to jump through all the hoops and fill out the forms correctly and convince HRSDC that there are actually captains in Canada that work for tips, the processing could easily last until after Christmas. Yes, he will be back paid, but by that time his credit cards may already be maxed out, kids won't get anything for Christmas and he may have gotten evicted.

I know how this system works because I worked in this cycle for about 10 years before I had the experience and seniority to land a non seasonal job in the Marine industry. My little brother and his wife still work in this cycle, my wife worked in this cycle when we met and my parents ran a seasonal tourism based business when I was a kid (they chose to pay their employees properly).

Just because a tip based industry works in BVI or Florida doesn't mean it's a good fit every where. I'm not saying I don't think this system should be used elsewhere, because I really don't care if it is or not. I definitely don't want that kind of a system developing in Canada though.

If it's a dog eat dog world where any one willing to hustle their clients a little more than the next guy can come out on top, then we end up with a system where every other guy has a "captains" licence, they're all fighting over table scraps and no one can make a living and the only winners are the client with the fat wallet and the unscrupulos charter company that doesn't pay their staff.


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## Minnewaska

I don't believe there is a clear right or wrong, there are pros and cons to both systems (ie with and without gratuities). The opposite side of the argument most recently posted is that a fixed salary system allows for the service provider to decide what level of service they will offer. There is no financial incentive to go the extra mile for customer satisfaction, no way for the dissatisfied client to adjust the fee for poor service. 

In the end, the client should understand local custom, such as the expectation they would buy meals ashore. I would still be interested to know what the charter company used by the poster above thinks about gratuities, but they haven't been revealed. I get the argument they should not encourage tipping, if no one else does, but there exists the possibility that the captains are actually paid the same as others and gratuities are still accepted. Wouldn't that be a desirable gig? I have also stated that this should be made clear to the client and the client should know enough to ask.


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## capta

Arcb said:


> That's why I'm saying you are not doing any one any favours if you select a charter company that is focused on gratuities rather than just paying the Captain.


In all my years around bareboat charters I've never heard of or seen any charter company that bases the pay of it's captains on a possible tip. Never.
I wouldn't work for them and I doubt any other professional who had gone to the effort, time and expense to get a ticket would either. We aren't uneducated, uncertified, menial laborers like waitstaff.


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## Arcb

Minnewaska, I agree, a job that pays decently and accepts tips is much better than a sub minimum wage job that relies almost entirely on tips.

I had such a gig for a season in 2002. It was a 72' Chris Craft, day charters only. I can't remember my hourly rate, it was either $18 or $20 per hour. Tips were frequent (maybe one in 10 trips I'd get a tip over $10). It was a pretty good job.

My EI that winter was based entirely on my hourly rate, I viewed tips as bonus beer money, I certainly didn't count on them for my bread and butter.

Obviously the client wants control, a tip based system gives that control to the client, and I believe you are arguing from a client perspective.

I on the other hand am arguing from the skippers perspective and I know from experience how tough it is to get through 6 months of winter on a maximum ei claim, I wouldn't want to try it on %54 of nothing.

I would also like to know the name of the charter company involved.


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## jephotog

I agree with the others who just wish the prices were upfront, in terms you know ahead of time. I find this even harder to find nowadays in many industries. Between hidden fees, surcharges, taxes, etc. As an example I was trying to put together a sailing trip to the PNW last year. I look at the charter companies pricing and the boat is listed as $3400. When I contact the company the price is really $5200 by the time the taxes and other fees are added on. Allegiant has a flight from San Diego to Bellingham for around $200/ round trip. You will pay extra for a carry on and a checked luggage. By the time it was done it was about the same price as flying Delta. I guess if you can travel sans luggage it could be worth it and it makes sense to charge people based on the services they use but I was wondering if I needed to bring a stack of quarters to use the lav in-flight.

The hotel I stayed in last weekend used to charge add on a "facilities fee", which used to be less and less of concern when my work was paying for it. But last weekend was on my dime and the fee had gone up for parking which was now valeted. The amount i was quoted for he night was increased by almost 30% when the bill was paid, plus I had to tip the valets.

I used to enjoy traveling to Mexico still do but it has changed to be more American like. Somehow they have figured out how to bilk the tourist for every dollar. On a ATV tour i took last year they "let you" view their "Zoo" for free while waiting. At the end a parrot was plopped on each shoulder for a photo op with the pictures available at the end of the trip with the photos and videos taken along the way when you were out ATVing. The ATV guides are also working hard to maximise the tip, with an orchestrated and timed performance at the end. I still enjoyed it but it is not the vibe I used to love about Mexico.

At lunch yesterday we ordered from a counter and paid via debit card, on the touch screen the tip amount came up with suggested amounts. When did a tip become expected on counter service? I will always throw a buck or two in a tip jar, and come back with more if I enjoyed the food but expecting a tip on counter service........?

The gyst of my rant is hidden fees and expected tips are becoming more the norm nowadays in the US and other places we have affected. I am just glad to know at least I don't have to tip Canadian Mariners.:wink


----------



## Arcb

capta said:


> Arcb said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's why I'm saying you are not doing any one any favours if you select a charter company that is focused on gratuities rather than just paying the Captain.
> 
> 
> 
> In all my years around bareboat charters I've never heard of or seen any charter company that bases the pay of it's captains on a possible tip. Never.
> I wouldn't work for them and I doubt any other professional who had gone to the effort, time and expense to get a ticket would either. We aren't uneducated, uncertified, menial laborers like waitstaff.
Click to expand...

I hope you are right Capta, but there is a bit of a regulatory gap for commercial operators between 5 tons and 150 ton vessels operating near coastal voyages in Canada. We don't have an equivalent of the 6 pack licence. So I'm curious if midwesternss skipper was operating under a full 150 ton masters licence, some licence I am not familiar with or was more of a advisor/sailing instructor and not really a skipper at all, maybe an old limited master licence?


----------



## ianjoub

Arcb said:


> the unscrupulos charter company that doesn't pay their staff.


We are supposed to be in a free market economy. There is nothing unscrupulous about paying market rate for anything. If a captain thinks he is worth more, he should get a different career.


----------



## ianjoub

jephotog said:


> At lunch yesterday we ordered from a counter and paid via debit card, on the touch screen the tip amount came up with suggested amounts. When did a tip become expected on counter service? I will always throw a buck or two in a tip jar, and come back with more if I enjoyed the food but expecting a tip on counter service........?


I do not tip for counter service either.


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## capta

ianjoub said:


> If a captain thinks he is worth more, he should get a different career.


Not a different career, just a different job. I can't count the number of jobs I've turned down because the pay wasn't sufficient, but I was rarely out of work. There are plenty of jobs out there for good money, if someone is qualified and professional.
My biggest problem for the first half of my career was that once I'd mastered operating a vessel, I'd be off looking for the next challenge. As I got older job longevity became more important.
As I said above, now I'm happy to just stand around looking 'captainish'. Gives the passengers a sense of security to see me pacing the poop deck on my peg leg, with my hook and eye patch mumbling, "arg, avast ye lubbers...."


----------



## Arcb

ianjoub said:


> Arcb said:
> 
> 
> 
> the unscrupulos charter company that doesn't pay their staff.
> 
> 
> 
> We are supposed to be in a free market economy. There is nothing unscrupulous about paying market rate for anything. If a captain thinks he is worth more, he should get a different career.
Click to expand...

Well, sort of. What I was getting at was, if the base rate of pay isn't adequate they should turn down that gig.

Qualified mariners have no need to work for tips.

At least not in Canada, which was the context of my comment.


----------



## Jammer Six

It's always better to deal with the way things really are rather than the way one wishes they were.


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## Yamsailor

Not a different career, he/she should get a different position or job. Captains with the same credentials do not all get paid the same rate. Do you think all licensed captains are the same?



ianjoub said:


> We are supposed to be in a free market economy. There is nothing unscrupulous about paying market rate for anything. If a captain thinks he is worth more, he should get a different career.


----------



## ianjoub

Yamsailor said:


> Not a different career, he/she should get a different position or job. Captains with the same credentials do not all get paid the same rate. Do you think all licensed captains are the same?


No, you certainly phrased it better than I did.


----------



## aeventyr60

Yamsailor said:


> Not a different career, he/she should get a different position or job. Captains with the same credentials do not all get paid the same rate. Do you think all licensed captains are the same?


I was over on a friends boat who is a master mariner...he is advising a company with barges on strategic positioning in a river deep up in Burma, making far more money then when he was the captain on the fiber optic laying ships...he calls all of them barges..


----------



## Arcb

Agreed whether a skipper has a degree in nautical science or has some kind of military/government training or just worked his way up through the hawse pipe and challenged every exam along the way, there are plenty of jobs that will highly value that experience that don't involve ever being on a boat.

A few examples that come to mind are, professor of nautical science, safety/security inspector, tonnage/cargo surveyor, ship manager/agent, cargo agent, project manager, risk assessment and analysis, emergency management, the list goes on and on.


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## Jammer Six

Not to mention that a charter Captain is a very different job from, say, a tug Captain.

Both take the license, and while a six pack license won't get you in the door to command a tug, it will get you a job on the crew.

The industries that float on salt water are enormous.


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## CapitanoCarlo

A gratuity for a bareboat skipper is not common. After all, you have to feed him and clean the yacht yourself. He is just there to keep a watchful eye to ensure to don't end up on the rocks.

However if he really went out of his way to show you you those hidden bays, then 10-15% of the skipper's fee will be welcome.

Remember this is not a crewed yacht charter where a gratuity is common. In this case the crew and chef all work very hard to make your life as comfortable as possible with 5 star treatment.


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## TakeFive

I just booked a 7-day Advanced Cruise and Learn in the Caribbean. My wife will be with me, as well as two other students whom we have never met. I plan to tip the instructor, but the various costs (charter boat, provisions, instructor fee) are not itemized - I just have a single lump sum. I want to tip an appropriate amount if service is good, but 15% of total bill is just crazy since the instructor has no business getting a percentage of the charter company's money. So I'd appreciate some guidance on an appropriate way to calculate it.

Also, I expect that the students should treat the instructor for the 2 evenings of eating ashore. I just hope the other two students are similarly enlightened.


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## SVAuspicious

TakeFive said:


> I want to tip an appropriate amount if service is good, but 15% of total bill is just crazy since the instructor has no business getting a percentage of the charter company's money. So I'd appreciate some guidance on an appropriate way to calculate it.


How about $200 - 250US? I came up with that number based on my own day rate for local boat moves (v. offshore).


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## Yamsailor

I assume you are going through a sailing school. If that is the case, the sailing school should have made it clear if dinners ashore are covered by the cost of the course or if they are covered on your own. In the latter case it is customary--not necessary, to purchase dinner for the skipper. It is not appropriate to purchase alcoholic drinks as he/she is working under the authority of his/her license. If the skipper does a good job then 10% of the total fee is a reasonable tip.



TakeFive said:


> I just booked a 7-day Advanced Cruise and Learn in the Caribbean. My wife will be with me, as well as two other students whom we have never met. I plan to tip the instructor, but the various costs (charter boat, provisions, instructor fee) are not itemized - I just have a single lump sum. I want to tip an appropriate amount if service is good, but 15% of total bill is just crazy since the instructor has no business getting a percentage of the charter company's money. So I'd appreciate some guidance on an appropriate way to calculate it.
> 
> Also, I expect that the students should treat the instructor for the 2 evenings of eating ashore. I just hope the other two students are similarly enlightened.


----------



## Uricanejack

TakeFive said:


> I just booked a 7-day Advanced Cruise and Learn in the Caribbean. My wife will be with me, as well as two other students whom we have never met. I plan to tip the instructor, but the various costs (charter boat, provisions, instructor fee) are not itemized - I just have a single lump sum. I want to tip an appropriate amount if service is good, but 15% of total bill is just crazy since the instructor has no business getting a percentage of the charter company's money. So I'd appreciate some guidance on an appropriate way to calculate it.
> 
> Also, I expect that the students should treat the instructor for the 2 evenings of eating ashore. I just hope the other two students are similarly enlightened.


I think the kind of amounts being suggested are ridiculous.

By him or her dinner certainly, I would offer drinks as well, some people might not think the instructor drinking is appropriate but I wouldn't have a problem with it provided moderation and sobriety for the morning departure.
As a former Instructor, I never expected to be tipped and usually was not. 
When get back into instructing I will not be expecting a tip.
I gave and will give the same quality of instruction. tip or no tip. since no tip was expected.

If you feel the need to be tip it should be based on the instructors rate not the charter rate.
Don't be guilted into tipping an amount you are not comfortable with by this thread.

You have paid a fee for a course. Not a charter. You will be participating in sailing the vessel not sitting back being waited on.

If the skipper does all the cooking washing up cleaning, tip on that.

The advanced course I did years ago included showing the ability to plan and prepare meals for a crew. ie. the students cook and learn how to do so safely underway. Its a part of safely managing a voyage.


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## Minnewaska

Lot's of philosophy.... tip on this, not on that. Tip, don't tip.

When I poked around, the FAQ sections of several websites made local custom very clear. One's philosophy is irrelevant. If you don't like what they claim to be customary, or on what total it applies, don't book with them.

If you do go with them, you can't punish the hired hands who rely on that income, because your tipping philosophy differs.


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## ianjoub

Minnewaska said:


> If you do go with them, you can't punish the hired hands who rely on that income, because your tipping philosophy differs.


Yes one can. You may not think it is right, but there is no law against it.


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## TakeFive

Yamsailor said:


> ...the sailing school should have made it clear if dinners ashore are covered by the cost of the course or if they are covered on your own. In the latter case it is customary--not necessary, to purchase dinner for the skipper...


They made it clear that on-board provisions are covered. Students are expected to plan, cook, and clean up as part of ASA106 training.

They also made it clear that the two scheduled dinners ashore are not covered. However, no clarity was provided regarding the instructor's meal (I don't think his role is skipper, is it?). I am happy to cover that per the custom that you mentioned. As I said, I hope the other students make the same assumption, since I think that would be appropriate to split it among everyone.


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## Minnewaska

ianjoub said:


> Yes one can. You may not think it is right, but there is no law against it.


Poor choice of words on my part. You can, but it would be ethically wrong. If you don't want to follow local custom, go elsewhere. Otherwise, you're trying to get something for free or for less than it is designed to cost, if you tip less than is locally customary for good service.

I'm not arguing anyone's preference for a tipping or non-tipping or partial-tipping policy. Only that tipping less than is expected is only hurting the hired hand and that's wrong, IMO.


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## MikeOReilly

I generally agree that one should go with the local customs in most things, including tipping. However, it seems to me that in this case of tipping an instructor, that this is simply wrong, and should be resisted. It's a reflection of the tipping culture of the USA and Canada where is has become the norm to underpay service staff. This, to me, should be resisted.

In a search of boating instructor tipping standards I came across a couple of somewhat useful references.

#1. _From a fancy charter brokerage company offering a range of boat charters: _

generally speaking in the CARIBBEAN, charterers should seriously consider between 10% and 15% of the base charter rate.

#2. _From Conde Nast Traveler site on tipping etiquette:
_
"If you charter a boat, they'll include the service charge," says McCabe, "but if the captain takes you to 47 different little coves and jumps overboard to show you a conch, you can tip more."

I could find *no* references for tipping sailing instructors outside of discussions on the various sailing forums (here, CF, Sailnet, etc).

Personally speaking, I have taken two week-long cruising courses in the past (CYA Basic & Advanced). Both in Canada, with Canadian schools and Canadian instructors. No tip was offered by myself or the other students. No tip was expected. We chipped in for food, cooked and maintained the boat. The instructed was treated to a few beers after the course, but no tip.

My wife took two similar CYA courses in the Caribbean. Same thing; no tip expected, requested, suggested or given. Crew and sailing school were both Canadian, but operated regularly in the Caribbean.

Our courses all happened between 12 and eight years ago.

I can understand tipping a full-service charter captain & crew. This is a vacation where you are being served. But it makes no sense to me to tip a sailing instructor. In fact, I think this sets up a potentially awkward conflict of interest scenario. If these courses, and the accreditations mean anything, then surely paying the person who is ultimately grading your efforts, should be avoided.


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## ianjoub

MikeOReilly said:


> But it makes no sense to me to tip a sailing instructor. In fact, I think this sets up a potentially awkward conflict of interest scenario. If these courses, and the accreditations mean anything, then surely paying the person who is ultimately grading your efforts, should be avoided.


Excellent point!


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## eherlihy

As an ASA, and US Sailing Instructor I *should*stay out of this, but against my better judgment, I'll try to help @TakeFive out.

One school that I work for has no policy regarding gratuities. Another school encourages gratuities. My observation is that there is no consistency WRT gratuities for instructors.

However, instructors - especially on an ASA 104 or 106 - work 24 hours for the time that they are aboard. If at the end of the course you feel that the instructor provided you with a high level of service, and you or your wife gained knowledge from the instructor to the point where you would say "thank you," a gratuity is warranted.

WRT the amount, in my experience - for teaching - $50/day/couple is a good tip.

Ironically, as a charter captain, which involves far less work and responsibility (no tests to administer or correct, no pre-defined exercises, no documentation of performance), 10-15% of the TOTAL CHARTER COST is customary;
Moorings:


> The quality of service should dictate the gratuity. As a guideline, we suggest an average of 10-15% of the total charter cost for Crewed Yacht Charters, and 10-15% of the daily Skipper fee for Bareboat Sailing or Power Yacht Charters.


Sunsail;


> The skipper fee does not include food or beverages for the skipper and are the responsibility of the client. It is suggested that you discuss this on the first day with the skipper and establish whether you will give the skipper cash for meals, whether you have included him in your provisioning or whether you will accommodate him as part of the group for meals ashore.
> The skipper must have his own cabin. We prefer not to put the skipper in the bow due to the shared head and size of the cabin. If you expect him to stay in the bow, please let us know well in advance so that we can choose the appropriate (small) skipper.
> ...
> The average tip for a skipper is 15 to 20% of the skipper's fee. This is, of course, at your discretion.
> 
> [and;]
> Gratuity for the crew... is also customary upon completion of the charter.


Bluenose Yacht Charters / Dream Charter;


> Skipper/Licensed Captain $350.-/night+ provisioning Captains are not BYC employees, however we will assist in arranging for a USCG certified Captain for your charter. Please inquire for details. You will pay the Skipper/Captain directly and in advance of your charter.
> It is normal to also expect to pay a small gratuity to the Skipper of between 10-15% depending upon your satisfaction.


Image Yacht Charters;


> NOT included in price: Provisions, Tax, Fuel for Tender, Gratuities to Crew


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## RobGallagher

I'm a chronic over tipper. That being said, I have to wonder about tipping a sailing instructor. Way too much of a conflict of interest. I would also expect to pay more for sailing lessons than I would for a charter captain.


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## Uricanejack

This thread originated with a thread on tipping a bare boat charter captain.
I have expressed my views on this already. 

As an Instructor. Ok ex-instructor. I see a considerable difference between an instructor and a bare boat charter skipper. and a bigger difference to a charter skipper.
Add in the conflict of interest aspect (I hadn't even thought of that).

My take on it. I enjoy sailing, I enjoy instructing or teaching, I do not enjoy serving. You come sailing with me its about learning to sail and working together. I don't ask for, need or want a tip. I would rather be considered an equal and a friend. Not your servant. 
For me its about self respect. Being respected. Including being respected by the sailing school.

Most Instructing for leisure activities like sailing. Is seasonal, part time, contract work. Most of us do it for pleasure. Some run business's. Some make a precarious living at it for a while. 
Part of the reason its relatively low paid is because. The market is tough. And some of us work for pleasure more than dollars.

If I wanted to be a Charter Skipper I could be one. If I wanted to be a waiter I could be one. I don't

I would much rather work for a fair rate. From a fair school. I don't believe a fair employer from a fair school paying a fair rate should be undercut by Unfair schools or instructors who will advertise cheaper and expect tips to make up the difference.

What todays fair rate is I don't know. I am not current.


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## tempest

RobGallagher said:


> I'm a chronic over tipper. That being said, I have to wonder about tipping a sailing instructor. Way too much of a conflict of interest. I would also expect to pay more for sailing lessons than I would for a charter captain.


Rob, how is tipping a sailing instructor a conflict of interest? I think I must be missing something.

If a tip is given, "after" the service has been provided as a thank you, and not prior to a course or series of courses as an " insurance" or "assurance" that a passing grade it given, I'm not sure I see where a conflict occurs.

Only part of the fee that gets paid for sailing lessons gets to the instructor. The money gets divided between the school's owner ( boat and maintenance and profit) and the relevant association (ASA, US sailing, RYA etc.) for Books, membership registrations, exams, certificates etc. Relatively little actually trickles down to the instructor. let's say, the instructor gets, perhaps $150.00/day. Out of that $150.00 the instructor incurs; state tax, federal tax, double SS tax as an independent contractor, transportation costs to and from the boat, lunch, license fees and drug testing fees, membership fees to maintain their licenses and certifications. etc. If they are lucky, they may net $90.00 day, Most marinas charge at least $90/hr. to do work on a boat.


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## TakeFive

tempest said:


> Rob, how is tipping a sailing instructor a conflict of interest? I think I must be missing something.
> 
> If a tip is given, "after" the service has been provided as a thank you, and not prior to a course or series of courses as an " insurance" or "assurance" that a passing grade it given, I'm not sure I see where a conflict occurs.


I think that anytime there are gratuities involved, an instructor may have in the back of his head, "if I flunk this person (or make him stay late for extra review/drilling/practice while the others go have fun), I could get stiffed."

Some may not be affected by it, but the appearance of possible impropriety is undeniably there.

Case in point, my quote from another thread:



TakeFive said:


> The school that I'm using this March had told me about that. I'm planning to challenge 104 (and thus all the lower ones) and train for 106. They said that they do not charge anything for the challenge - except for maybe a very large tip to the instructor. (TOTALLY KIDDING!!!!)...


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## RobGallagher

tempest said:


> Rob, how is tipping a sailing instructor a conflict of interest? I think I must be missing something.
> 
> If a tip is given, "after" the service has been provided as a thank you, and not prior to a course or series of courses as an " insurance" or "assurance" that a passing grade it given, I'm not sure I see where a conflict occurs.
> 
> Only part of the fee that gets paid for sailing lessons gets to the instructor. The money gets divided between the school's owner ( boat and maintenance and profit) and the relevant association (ASA, US sailing, RYA etc.) for Books, membership registrations, exams, certificates etc. Relatively little actually trickles down to the instructor. let's say, the instructor gets, perhaps $150.00/day. Out of that $150.00 the instructor incurs; state tax, federal tax, double SS tax as an independent contractor, transportation costs to and from the boat, lunch, license fees and drug testing fees, membership fees to maintain their licenses and certifications. etc. If they are lucky, they may net $90.00 day, Most marinas charge at least $90/hr. to do work on a boat.


Most Marinas don't pay their help near $90/hr so I don't see how that is relevant, but more to the point, I've tipped a mechanic for going above and beyond in helping me out in a pinch.

I just don't think that tipping the guy that is supposed to fail you if you cannot perform up to the task at hand is a wise way to keep a certificate worth more than the paper it's printed on.

I have worked as an instructor in a position that taught adults a skill set that could lead to immediate full time employment. Worth, I would venture to guess, to some people much more than an ASA101 diploma. If, at a later date, someone sent or presented me with a thank you note that contained a gift card or bought me a bottle then I could accept that. Cash on the barrel head when they received a certificate was not acceptable. At the time I was making about $25/hr BEFORE taxes. I'm still very middle class and don't get tipped.

If you want to get tipped, do day sails and put out a tip jar. OR give sailing lessons and put out a tip jar. It's still up to the individual.

JMHO YMMV


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## chef2sail

Lots of extraneous examples. It's not a tip you areafter here but a gift. 

It's not a charter 
It's a class
Do you normally tip your class instructors 
Did you tip your diesel class instructors

As far as expecting others who are on the boat to feel the way you do, I don't thinks it's fair to expect that. They may not share you philosophy . 

They are also probably paying full price for this instruction while if this is part of your former companies money paying for this, you aren't paying full freight for the instruction. Many of them have paid a lot already where you have not. To expect them to add to that. Well you make luck out on that, but I wouldn't expect them to think like you as they are not coming at this the same way. It's a class.....not a charter. The person is an instructor....not a cruise director

I am in a service industry so I understand tipping well. The club I used to be I had an overriding tipping policy which automatically pooled the tips to prevent favoritism or some members from getting better / preferential service from other members. 

I think this should not be considered a gratuity / tip situation. Rather if you feel your instructor does a superior job and you wish to give him a gift then do so


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## Uricanejack

I worked on the dock at a marina many years ago. It was round about minimum wage give or take. I would expect things haven't change much. Now if I could get a marine or diesel engine mechanic to show up for 90 bucks an hour I would be a happy sailor.
The pay is dictated by supply and demand. 
If there was a lot more mechanics looking for work, the hourly rate would be a lot lower.


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## Minnewaska

Had to ask google-yoda. The first few results all addressed policy for tipping the instructor. They cover Newport, Florida, Bahamas, VIs and the Grenandines and were just random google hits.

Caribbean Sailing School Pricing | Barefoot Offshore Sailing | Learn to Sail in the Caribbean | BOSS Sailing School



> Instructor gratuities - 10% to 15% of the course fee per student is a guideline


Blue Water Sailing School: Frequently Asked Questions



> As always, a gratuity is entirely at your discretion. However, it is standard practice in the industry to pay a gratuity to your instructor. A typical tip would range between 15% - 20% of your course fee.


rates Prices Island Dreamer Sailing School



> Gratuity: After your charter, if you feel we have done a wonderful job, a gratuity is welcomed and always appreciated.


_note: this is strictly a sailing school.
_

I think some are arguing for what they would like, not what is actually customary.

As I think more about this, I understand that a day course would seem odd to tip the instructor. However, if the instructor is living aboard 24/7, there has to be a service level beyond just teaching during the day. It won't be cooking meals or folding laundry, but it will be conversation and a general sense of being pleasant having them around. I'm fine with a gratuity system for a live aboard instructor. It allows me to decide, after the fact, if they were exceptional at their job. I do understand others point of view.

Still, it doesn't matter what I think is right. It only matters what is customary and how the company has structured compensation.

As I've mentioned previously, to pay an competent captain to stay aboard my boat in RI, would cost $400 per day, on average, and they keep it all. In the BVI, that same captain costs $150 per day and they don't get it all. A significant gratuity is part of there compensation in the BVI. Boycott them, if you don't like that system. However, understand that you are going to need to pay that difference one way or the other, as they will raise their prices to include this, if they adopt a no tipping policy.

In the end, you pay.


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## TakeFive

chef2sail said:


> Lots of extraneous examples. It's not a tip you areafter here but a gift.
> 
> It's not a charter
> It's a class
> Do you normally tip your class instructors
> Did you tip your diesel class instructors
> 
> As far as expecting others who are on the boat to feel the way you do, I don't thinks it's fair to expect that. They may not share you philosophy .
> 
> They are also probably paying full price for this instruction while if this is part of your former companies money paying for this, you aren't paying full freight for the instruction. Many of them have paid a lot already where you have not....


If you read the whole thread you will see someone's description of a very awkward situation where the guests were expected to treat for the on-shore dinners but did not. I am looking to avoid that and keep the instructor happy vs. his expectations. If everyone on the boat shares that generosity, it becomes more fair and less burdensome. But I'm not going to hold them at gunpoint if they don't want to chip in for the meal.

Contrary to what you suggest, I am paying significant out-of-pocket money for this. Tips and airfare are not reimbursed, so that is out of pocket. This trip will exceed my reimbursement budget, so everything above that is out of pocket. My wife's fee for this is not reimbursed, so that's a significant expense for me. My decision whether to tip and pay for meals is totally intended to keep morale high and encourage good service by following local custom and meeting crew expectations if I receive good service. My willingness to tip has absolutely no connection to how much money someone else is giving me to cover other stuff. The tips come from me, and from my desire to do the right thing.

A tip provided at the end of the trip is relatively low-risk. If someone tips poorly or stiffs him, the trip is over with and may never see the person again. (Of course, in that case don't plan on doing any repeat business.) But stiffing a guy from an expected on-shore meal on day #2 of the trip could bring down morale for the whole rest of the week. So it's important to handle that correctly, and I intend to.

FYI, I just received a follow-up email from the school with a preparation checklist, including this:


> Many people ask us if it is customary to tip your instructor. Our instructors work hard to make your trip enjoyable and tipping is appreciated. But it's up to you - the average range is 10% to 15% of the class price.


They do not specify treating the instructor for the on-shore meals, but others here have indicated that if tips are customary, then treating for meals generally is also.


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## eherlihy

I see that you've hashed this out, and come to a final conclusion. As I said elsewhere there is no consistency.

My only issue is that the proper term is "gratuity;" you are expressing your gratitude to the instructor for his or her service. I have actually had clients insist that they are providing me with a "birthday present" to get me out of the tax implications.

Also; Minne - if you ever want me to boat sit, send me a PM.


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## TakeFive

eherlihy said:


> I see that you've hashed this out, and come to a final conclusion. As I said elsewhere there is no consistency.
> 
> My only issue is that the proper term is "gratuity;" you are expressing your gratitude to the instructor for his or her service. I have actually had clients insist that they are providing me with a "birthday present" to get me out of the tax implications.
> 
> Also; Minne - if you ever want me to boat sit, send me a PM.


I agree with you in principle, and had used that word originally. I changed it when the email that I received used the word "tip."


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## MikeOReilly

Agreed. So perhaps people should shop around for companies that do not hide costs as part of a suggested gratuity. As I say, my wife took two courses in the Caribbean. They were both week-long liveaboards. There was no captain tip suggested, requested or desired. So unless this company is gone, or has changed its practice in the last few years, there is at least one that operates this way. 

The problem with “suggested gratuities” is that they are not really optional (unless you are impervious to all social pressures), and are therefore part of the cost of the course. It is a way of offloading the financial risk from the owner to the employee. Like I say, this is part of a trend that began in low-level service business (most obviously restaurants), but is now spreading throughout the North American economy (I can’t speak about elsewhere). It serves only one purpose: to offload the costs of the business onto the backs of the employee.


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## eherlihy

and I agree with you Mike. In the "ideal world" everyone that works is paid a fair wage for what they do, but unfortunately, the US does not work that way. (Ayn Rand accepted Social Security benefits between 1974 and 1982.) 

The "tipping economy" is a consequence of what was called "trickle down economics" in the 1980's... and like it or not, it seems that it will be with us again.


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## midwesterner

TakeFive said:


> If you read the whole thread you will see someone's description of a very awkward situation where the guests were expected to treat for the on-shore dinners but did not.


That is not true.

I think you are referring to the experience that I described of our trip. But you have it wrong. Our awkward moment was only brief when our instructor did not offer money for her share of dinner our first night. The waitress brought the bill to me and I paid for the whole dinner.

The next morning, before we sailed, I called the trip planner with whom I had worked and consulted with her. She confirmed that it was customary for the customers to pay for the instructors meals through the week. We happily paid for meals and drinks for the rest of the trip once we knew that it was considered customary.

Our instructor understood that we are not wealthy people and she was very considerate of our finances. She recommended affordable restaurants, always ordered reasonably priced meals, and was moderate in her drinking.

We did not refuse to pay for her meals.


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## Jammer Six

eherlihy said:


> The "tipping economy" is a consequence of what was called "trickle down economics" in the 1980's... and like it or not, it seems that it will be with us again.


Not even close.

For those of you born during the 80s, tips were with us long, long before Regan was President. Contrary to popular mythology, folks tipped, had jobs, built bridges and sailed before you were born. You didn't invent any of it, or cause any of it to change.

Oh, and folks had sex. You haven't come up with anything new, there, either. Old folks having sex is why you're here.


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## Minnewaska

eherlihy said:


> ......Also; Minne - if you ever want me to boat sit, send me a PM.


Sadly, my good friend and delivery skipper passed away about 6 months ago. I trusted him and I miss him. Haven't needed a new one yet, but eventually will.

He did more than sit.


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## Minnewaska

eherlihy said:


> The "tipping economy" is a consequence of what was called "trickle down economics" in the 1980's... and like it or not, it seems that it will be with us again.


Ok, admit it, you made that up, right? 

Look up the history of tipping. It began in Europe, not the US. In fact, the US originally had some laws against it, which were abolished in the early 1900s, not the 80s. The practice was thought to originate with the aristocracy in Europe, who could afford to pay more than the going rate. It wasn't to make up for underpaid employees, but the rich could both engender more attention from the servers, as well as show off that they were wealthy.

Ironically, I just had this conversation with the manager at Gramercy Tavern. One of the NYC restaurants that just went to a no gratuity policy. The driver was the increase in minimum wage. Being a restaurant that isn't particulalry price sensitive, they just raised prices to pay the higher minimum. The result was now a higher bill, which resulted in higher tips as a percent of that bill. The wait staff got massive raises, when other roles did not. Rest assured, Gamercy Tavern wait staff were happy with their original compensation, as tips would have been relatively huge. The minimum wage is going up again, so they had to cut off tipping to properly pay their staff. I was ambivalent at the table, but I did enjoy not having to fork over money for someone to simply hand me my coat.


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## chef2sail

TakeFive said:


> If you read the whole thread you will see someone's description of a very awkward situation where the guests were expected to treat for the on-shore dinners but did not. I am looking to avoid that and keep the instructor happy vs. his expectations. If everyone on the boat shares that generosity, it becomes more fair and less burdensome. But I'm not going to hold them at gunpoint if they don't want to chip in for the meal.
> 
> Contrary to what you suggest, I am paying significant out-of-pocket money for this. Tips and airfare are not reimbursed, so that is out of pocket. This trip will exceed my reimbursement budget, so everything above that is out of pocket. My wife's fee for this is not reimbursed, so that's a significant expense for me. My decision whether to tip and pay for meals is totally intended to keep morale high and encourage good service by following local custom and meeting crew expectations if I receive good service. My willingness to tip has absolutely no connection to how much money someone else is giving me to cover other stuff. The tips come from me, and from my desire to do the right thing.
> 
> A tip provided at the end of the trip is relatively low-risk. If someone tips poorly or stiffs him, the trip is over with and may never see the person again. (Of course, in that case don't plan on doing any repeat business.) But stiffing a guy from an expected on-shore meal on day #2 of the trip could bring down morale for the whole rest of the week. So it's important to handle that correctly, and I intend to.
> 
> FYI, I just received a follow-up email from the school with a preparation checklist, including this:
> 
> They do not specify treating the instructor for the on-shore meals, but others here have indicated that if tips are customary, then treating for meals generally is also.


Sounds like you had already decided what you were doing before you asked the question, but we're looking for affirmation.

You stated you would tip to encourage good service, but how does that work when the tip occurs after the service. Are you intending to tip up front in the beginning? Now that might encourage good service

Would you leave a gratuity if the instructor was a dick and favored the others on the trip?

If I was one of the unknown people on this boat you hoped to convince to leave a gratituity, I would have said no. I'd would have asked you why?

I ask you again, are you tipping your Deisel class instructor.

Would I pay for his/ her dinner, probably . No question. That's just being polite and friendly and I probably would continue to get good knowledge at dinner. Hell I'd pay for your dinner if we went out and you were teaching me something. Or buy you a bottle of your favorite beverage.

Ii really had read the entire thread. I Already understood that you would be paying for your wife, your airfare to a warm tropical climate vs Chicago in Febrauary. See I did read the entire thread. 
My point was that the other "students" did that also . Plus they paid for the class. Would you have taken this if you also had to do that. Nope, you were looking for a way to spend money owed to you( no value judgement meant) You, fortunately had some kind of settlement from your previous job that you were looking to take advantage of and were looking for a way to spend that money. If I reacall it was a Six pack first. I don't blame you for taking advantage of the opportunity to use it in a tropical climate sailing. My point was that other had paid their airfare and had paid the course fees and maybe they might think that was the " true" cost of the experience. Let's be honest it's a vacation where you hope to learn something.

I am somewhat confused as all the ASA courses I took including offshore ones never did anything like a gratuity come up. Some did pay for meals of the instructor... drinks. These were certification courses ...is this thing you have enrolled in a certification course ....or is a charter where you expect to learn from a very experienced instructor and get skills for the future.

Not related to you or this execution

I abhor anything that states you are expected to leave a certain percentage . It almost makes you feel obligated . Gratuity IMHO is something which is freely given for above and beyond and is not an automatic " 10 or15%". If someone just performs a service at adequate levels that they are already paid for, why should you feel pressured to contribute anything extra.

That being said because I am in a service industry where there is gratuity I do reward exemplary service with extra money and am a overtopped for that sometimes. However I don't feel obligated. I also feel it my personal choice and don't ask others to climb in that boat with me. It's me saying thank you myself . No one will feel offended after the course is over if you do that.

In my experience Americans are over tippers . I have seen them use that vehicle in clubs, casinos, cruises, restaurants to entice service staff to take care of them and damned to the other patrons. Knowing you a little I assume you are not in that category, nor am I.

Daddy Big Bucks American comes along with the wad of cash and entices the staff to pay attention to him. / her.

Americans have this reputation in other countries worldwide and it may be much deserved from my observations.

That way the person with the most cash wins and gets the best of attention. Sometimes at the cost to others.


----------



## eherlihy

Minnewaska said:


> Ok, admit it, you made that up, right?
> 
> Look up the history of tipping. It began in Europe, not the US. In fact, the US originally had some laws against it, which were abolished in the early 1900s, not the 80s. The practice was thought to originate with the aristocracy in Europe, who could afford to pay more than the going rate. It wasn't to make up for underpaid employees, but the rich could both engender more attention from the servers, as well as show off that they were wealthy.
> 
> Ironically, I just had this conversation with the manager at Gramercy Tavern. One of the NYC restaurants that just went to a no gratuity policy. The driver was the increase in minimum wage. Being a restaurant that isn't particulalry price sensitive, they just raised prices to pay the higher minimum. The result was now a higher bill, which resulted in higher tips as a percent of that bill. The wait staff got massive raises, when other roles did not. Rest assured, Gamercy Tavern wait staff were happy with their original compensation, as tips would have been relatively huge. The minimum wage is going up again, so they had to cut off tipping to properly pay their staff. I was ambivalent at the table, but I did enjoy not having to fork over money for someone to simply hand me my coat.


Yes, I made up the statement that the "tipping economy" was a consequence of the '80s. I know that tipping existed long before that.

However, as you point out, it was the hyper-stratification of income in Europe which led to the expectation of "tipping." My point is that many of the policies that lead to this hyper-stratification came into effect in the US during the '80s. These policies were reversed to some degree in the '90s and 2000s, but they seem to be coming back into acceptance (popularity?).

Sorry for mentioning it and instigating the drift of this thread off topic.


----------



## Minnewaska

eherlihy said:


> Yes, I made up the statement that the "tipping economy" was a consequence of the '80s. I know that tipping existed long before that.
> 
> However, as you point out, it was the hyper-stratification of income in Europe which led to the expectation of "tipping." My point is that many of the policies that lead to this hyper-stratification came into effect in the US during the '80s. These policies were reversed to some degree in the '90s and 2000s, but they seem to be coming back into acceptance (popularity?).
> 
> Sorry for mentioning it and instigating the drift of this thread off topic.


Maybe a little thread drift, but it related to tipping. These days, I'm not sure most folks, even those that like the tipping model, consider themselves in the same class as the European aristocracy. For that matter, I don't believe we're even close to the income disparity of the 1800s in the US (when there was no tipping in the US). JD Rockefeller, Vanderbilts, Carnegie, etc. The wealthy were far more disparate from the workers back then.


----------



## Uricanejack

Minnewaska said:


> Had to ask google-yoda. The first few results all addressed policy for tipping the instructor. They cover Newport, Florida, Bahamas, VIs and the Grenandines and were just random google hits.
> 
> Caribbean Sailing School Pricing | Barefoot Offshore Sailing | Learn to Sail in the Caribbean | BOSS Sailing School
> 
> Blue Water Sailing School: Frequently Asked Questions
> 
> rates Prices Island Dreamer Sailing School
> 
> _note: this is strictly a sailing school.
> _
> 
> I think some are arguing for what they would like, not what is actually customary.
> 
> As I think more about this, I understand that a day course would seem odd to tip the instructor. However, if the instructor is living aboard 24/7, there has to be a service level beyond just teaching during the day. It won't be cooking meals or folding laundry, but it will be conversation and a general sense of being pleasant having them around. I'm fine with a gratuity system for a live aboard instructor. It allows me to decide, after the fact, if they were exceptional at their job. I do understand others point of view.
> 
> Still, it doesn't matter what I think is right. It only matters what is customary and how the company has structured compensation.
> 
> As I've mentioned previously, to pay an competent captain to stay aboard my boat in RI, would cost $400 per day, on average, and they keep it all. In the BVI, that same captain costs $150 per day and they don't get it all. A significant gratuity is part of there compensation in the BVI. Boycott them, if you don't like that system. However, understand that you are going to need to pay that difference one way or the other, as they will raise their prices to include this, if they adopt a no tipping policy.
> 
> In the end, you pay.


Works for me. I wont be sailing with any of those companies.


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## MikeOReilly

Yes, thanks Minn. The simple answer is to stop patronizing these companies that conduct business this way. Reward those who pay their staff with a salary, not with a tip.

As far as the history of tipping goes, a little Google (or rather Duck Duck) slinging turned up some fascinating facts. It's true tipping came from European aristocracy who used it as yet another way to lord their power over the plebs. In the earlier days of the USA it was apparently verboten to tip, since it was part of the oppression which the whole Revolutionary War was fought for. But by 1900s tipping became the norm in the USA.

This article in About Travel, A Brief History of Tipping, puts it this way:



> "As tipping became widespread in America, many found it to be antithetical to democracy and American ideals of equality. In 1891, journalist Arthur Gaye wrote that a tip should be given to someone "who is presumed to be inferior to the donor, not only in worldly wealth, but in social position also." "Tipping, and the aristocratic idea it exemplifies, is what we left Europe to escape," William Scott wrote in his 1916 anti-tipping brochure, "The Itching Palm," in which he argued that tipping was as "un-American" as "slavery."
> 
> In 1904, the Anti-Tipping Society of America sprang up in Georgia, and its 100,000 members signed pledges not to tip anyone for a year. In 1909, Washington became the first of six states to pass an anti-tipping law. But, the new laws rarely were enforced, and, by 1926, every anti-tipping law had been repealed."


According to the history, tipping in the USA really took off in the 1960s when the laws were changed so that workers could receive a lower minimum wage if a portion of their salary came from tips.

It's interesting to note there is a current push back on this ever-expanding tipping culture in the US. A small, but growing number of restaurants are trying to go tip free.


----------



## Minnewaska

MikeOReilly said:


> ....It's interesting to note there is a current push back on this ever-expanding tipping culture in the US. A small, but growing number of restaurants are trying to go tip free.


Yes, but as I mentioned above, it's not really due to moral philosophy. As they started (were forced) to pay their staff more per hour, the staff began to get both and were being overpaid, relative to other jobs.

Anecdotes related to individual preferences, don't really change custom. I dare say that wealthier folks are going to continue to provide gratuities in some fashion, because they can. In order for that to stop, folks would have to refuse to accept them, not simply be paid more by their employer, which I find unlikely across the board. Even if these instructors/captains were paid appropriately, I'm willing to bet most would accept the additional gratuity. And the cycle starts over. If they are commonly paid twice (proper salary plus tip), there is more demand for the job and wages are reduced (or lag behind) to compensate.

Relatively speaking, everyone on this board is wealthy. Just owning a boat of any size puts one in the upper half of wealth, almost certainly. I find it perfectly acceptable that some achieve more wealth than others, if based upon talent, work ethic or their willingness to take personal risk that paid off. What I find objectionable is hording the money (and I know people that do). If you came up a winner, I think you should spend an appropriate amount of one's wealth (obviously not everything) and that might include paying a bit more to one's servers, dock hands, etc. Personally, I'm very generous, when the service is acceptable. I genuinely appreciate that they are working hard for a living, like I do. The uneducated, single mother at my local watering hole is truly doing the best she can and I tip generously to help. However, I prefer to make that choice, where deserved. I think a no-tip, level wage system probably makes things less expensive for me and ultimately less lucrative for that single mother. Just another perspective.


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## MikeOReilly

Minnewaska said:


> Yes, but as I mentioned above, it's not really due to moral philosophy. As they started (were forced) to pay their staff more per hour, the staff began to get both and were being overpaid, relative to other jobs.


Yes, the issue seems to be the growing disparity between front of the house staff who get the tips, and back of the house who don't. As the NYT article write:



> "The gap between what the kitchen and dining room workers make has grown by leaps and bounds," Mr. Meyer said. During his 30 years in the business, he said, "kitchen income has gone up no more than 25 percent. Meanwhile, dining room pay has gone up 200 percent."


I'm all for generosity, especially from those who have benefited the most in our society. But a tipping culture is a poor way to spread the wealth. Much better ways are through more progressive taxation, and stronger labour laws which support workers' rights. If you want to express appreciation for your position in society, working towards those developments would have far more effect than tipping those who you find provide you with decent service. Of course this doesn't provide the wealthy with the same direct power, or perhaps the same level of self-satisfaction, but it is far more effective and fair.

As for people continuing to tip even when it is not required &#8230; I don't agree. I think the evidence is already available. Larger restaurant groups usually get assessed a mandatory gratuity (a service charge) on their bill. I've never known people in this situation to offer additional tips (as long as they understand the tip is already included &#8230; sometimes this is not made clear). Uber is another example. They don't allow tips, which is part of the attraction to the growing customer base. It's one of the reasons people say they prefer Uber over standard taxis.

Not all countries have this tipping culture, and yet most cultures have rich folk. It's part of North American (and Canadian) culture to offer large % tips in restaurants, and now to an expanding group of lower service workers. The main reason has everything to do with low minimum wages for serving staff in the US (the federal tipped minimum wage is $2.13/hr, which hasn't changed since 1991). All this does is off-load wage costs from employers directly onto customers.

But to bring this back to the question at hand, it would seem a sad statement indeed to start lumping professional sailing/cruising instructors into the category of low-level service staff. It is a relatively new development which can and should be resisted. It does no one any good, except perhaps the owners of sailing schools. And there are still options out there so customers can send the market message to school owners.


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## RobGallagher

So, I've given this some more thought; If I took some sort of class that involved overnighting and cruising on the boat and the instructor also acted as more or less the charter captain, then I suppose gratuities should be considered. I'd like to think I would be tipping based on the charter part and not the instruction and testing  I say this because there is no way I could not treat that person to meals and drinks. It's crossed the line into entertainment as well as instruction and probably deserves a tip.


----------



## MikeOReilly

RobGallagher said:


> So, I've given this some more thought; If I took some sort of class that involved overnighting and cruising on the boat and the instructor also acted as more or less the charter captain, then I suppose gratuities should be considered. I'd like to think I would be tipping based on the charter part and not the instruction and testing  I say this because there is no way I could not treat that person to meals and drinks. It's crossed the line into entertainment as well as instruction and probably deserves a tip.


I agree with you in theory Rob, but in practice I don't think you can avoid the perception of conflict (and likely the reality). The person who is teaching and grading your achievement is still the person who is now working for tips. It's an awkward situation for both the student and instructor. What's next? High school teachers accepting tips from their students? University profs? How about cops? There's a reason we call most of these things bribes.

But my second point is more of a comment/question. The courses I took were both week-long liveaboards. The instructors were with us 24/7, but they did not serve us. Since it was a cruising course, we all (including the captain) took part in all aspects of the boat's basic operation, from cooking and cleaning to sailing, anchoring, and general maintenance. This latter stuff was where the formal course work overlapped, but just like with any crew, general living duties were shared. My wife's courses also operated this way. So the captains did not "serve" us. To do so would have devalued part of the benefits of a liveaboard course.

As I said, I can accept the notion of tipping a charter captain/crew (although I bet this too is a relatively new development). Having an instructor forced to work for tips is simply a bad idea that should be resisted.


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## Minnesail

I am a notorious over-tipper (my wife joked that during the recession I was single-handedly keeping the south Minneapolis service industry afloat) but I confess that it never occurred to me to tip my instructor when I took ASA courses on Lake Superior.

I just scanned the school's website and I don't find any mention of tipping, but now I do kinda wish I had given a gift at the end. Still could, I suppose. I do occasionally run into my instructor at the marina. She was an excellent teacher.

The custom of tipping may have started as a class thing, it certainly isn't now. When I was a waiter the very best tippers were other people who worked in the service industry. I have only worked at one restaurant, but at least there it was customary for servers to tip out the dishwashers and prep staff.


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## Jammer Six

If you can't afford the tip, you can't afford the trip.


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## RobGallagher

I didn't tip my OUPV teacher, ASA 105 or ASA 101 instructors. I can't say I feel bad about it. There where about a dozen students in each class.

So the OUPV class brought in $12K over 6-7 weeks, about 3 hours, one night a week.

If I remember, ASA 101 was about $400 for two days class, x 12 people = $4800 for the two 7 hour days. 1/2 day in the class with one instructor. The next day and a half on the water with two more instructors.

ASA 105 was about $400 for two 7 hour classroom only days. x 12 people = $4800

I'm not going to attempt to figure out the fees, taxes and bologna sandwiches involved, but it can't be wait staff making $4.30 an hour, NOR is it an instructor spending 24 hours a day for a long weekend pretending to care about your political views after dinner, the names of your cats, even pretending to like you.

People get tipped when they pretend to like me over dinner


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## Jammer Six

I tip more if I believe them.


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## ianjoub

Jammer Six said:


> If you can't afford the tip, you can't afford the trip.


If you need the tip to survive, you should change careers.


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## Jammer Six

ianjoub said:


> If you need the tip to survive, you should change careers.


Which changes precisely nothing.


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## TakeFive

Jammer Six said:


> Which changes precisely nothing.


This rant is not directed at Jammer Six. I agree with is post:

"Which changes precisely nothing"...except for destroying your own job/career, abandoning your training, skills, and (possibly) certifications. Nobody has infinite job options, and as Malcolm Gladwell points out, it takes 10,000 hours to get really good at anything new. Not many people have the wherewithal to spend that amount of time retraining from scratch. I wonder how many of these people that say to "just go do something else" would ever follow their own advice. In my book it's right up there with those who claim a woman who is sexually harassed should just go find another job.

There's this guy from Australia who joined my team about 10 years ago. He joined our lunch group going out to lunch every Friday, and it was clear he was going to nit-pick every restaurant waiter to death as an excuse to stiff him on the tip. One time we were at an authentic Mexican restaurant that the rest of us had been going to regularly for 10 years. Just wonderful, hardworking people running all aspects of that restaurant. He got a free refill on his drink. When he asked for a second refill he was politely notified that he would have to pay for it, as was clearly stated on the menu. We all knew this, but it was irrelevant because we never had stayed long enough to get two refills. But this guy makes a total scene, berating the poor waiter, calling out the manager, etc. And just like always, he used that as an excuse to stiff them on the tip, and insisted that we all stiff him to to show our support. (My other buddy and I snuck back in later to leave money on the table.) Our group couldn't go back to that place for 2 years because we were so embarrassed.

This guy just pulled this crap all the time at restaurants, so our lunch group fell apart (and secretly regrouped without him). This guy eventually got fired from our company. He had berated his boss into giving him an early promotion that he didn't deserve, and when his boss moved on and the new boss saw this guy underperforming, he was gone. He was constantly complaining about his wife (just the loveliest person you could meet), and was divorced a couple years later. Last I talked to him he was still looking for a job, but couldn't find one because he's now living in a depressed area and can't relocate because of the nasty custody battle he's in with his ex.

My two main points: 1) Karma is a b!tch, and 2) I just realized that I have a real chip on my shoulder on this topic because when I read posts of people making unrealistic rationalizations why people should not provide gratuities for outstanding service, I think of that damned Aussie that just crapped over everything he touched.

I know that gratuities for the instructor who is grading you is a potential conflict of interest. I get it. But in cruising schools where the guy is working 24/7 to keep everyone happy, and (in my upcoming case) being flexible and making extra effort to accommodate my spouse's individual training needs, I'm going to happily offer up my appreciation.

I have no ulterior motives. I am not trying to look like a wealthy aristocrat. I am just trying to follow local custom and be a good customer.

You can pontificate all you want about the lousy US system that fails to pay a living wage for certain job categories. Given recent events in the US, it's not going to change anytime soon. And the flip side is that it DOES create an incentive for people to go the extra mile to ensure customer satisfaction. So it's not all bad. Just don't use the lousy system as an excuse to stiff people when local custom is to provide gratuities.

Oh, one last question: Although I've selected the sailing school that I'm going to use, I would be interested in hearing which Caribbean sailing schools positively forbid gratuities. I hear talk of people who say they won't use the ones that suggest gratuities, so I'm just curious, "Who ya gonna call?"


----------



## MikeOReilly

TakeFive said:


> ...You can pontificate all you want about the lousy US system that fails to pay a living wage for certain job categories. Given recent events in the US, it's not going to change anytime soon. And the flip side is that it DOES create an incentive for people to go the extra mile to ensure customer satisfaction. So it's not all bad. Just don't use the lousy system as an excuse to stiff people when local custom is to provide gratuities.


Since I am part of the target group for your rant I'll quickly state in no uncertain terms that I am NOT suggesting in any way that a worker gets stiffed. Just The Opposite in fact. I want all workers to be paid fairly and adequately. What I object to is the use of tipping as a way for companies to off load the risk and expense of the wages their workers are owed.

I have absolutely NO problem with someone offering a gratuity if they feel the service they've received warrants it. The issue here is the expansion of "suggested" or "recommended" gratuities, which functionally masquerades as shift of wage costs directly onto the customer. It allows the company to get away with not paying a fair wage, and it masks the real cost of a service or product.

Lets be clear. These are not tips or gratuities. These are part of the salary of the employee. And in the case of sailing schools, this is growing trend b/c it benefits the companies, not the workers.

The school my wife used for two Caribbean courses (Intermediate and Advanced CYA) is called Grassroots Sailing School . I can tell you about the schools I used, but those courses were both taught in Canada (Georgian Bay and PNW).

BTW, there are lots of studies into the impact of tipping on quality of service. Most conclude that tipping produces almost no impact on the service one receives. But the same research clearly shows a range of negative social and economic outcomes for both the server and the customer. The only one who really wins is the company owner.


----------



## jephotog

chef2sail said:


> I ask you again, are you tipping your Deisel class instructor.


Very interesting observation. I would never consider tipping someone teaching me in a classroom environment. However when on an outdoor trip or whenever I have spent some significant time with someone who has taught or entertained me, I feel a tip is in order.

I used to live in a mountain town where a lot of my friends on the river were also river guides or ex-river guides. I was paddling with them one day and we were passing a guided river boat. My friend paddled up next to the boat and asked to the boat. "Are you guys having a good time?" "Yes" shouted the boat. "Remember to tip your guide then" answered my friend.



chef2sail said:


> Daddy Big Bucks American comes along with the wad of cash and entices the staff to pay attention to him. / her.
> 
> Americans have this reputation in other countries worldwide and it may be much deserved from my observations.
> 
> That way the person with the most cash wins and gets the best of attention. Sometimes at the cost to others.


My last job was flying a plane for two guys often into Mexico. One guy who owned a house in Mexico for years but still did not speak Spanish would walk around tipping everyone when going through customs. When I would fly to Mexico next week with the other owner it was hard to get things done because I was not authorized to walk around handing out extra greenbacks. I think overtipping when traveling does not make you a generous American it makes you an Ugly American and ruins it for the rest of us.


----------



## TakeFive

MikeOReilly said:


> Since I am part of the target group for your rant I'll quickly state in no uncertain terms that I am NOT suggesting in any way that a worker gets stiffed. Just The Opposite in fact. I want all workers to be paid fairly and adequately. What I object to is the use of tipping as a way for companies to off load the risk and expense of the wages their workers are owed....BTW, there are lots of studies into the impact of tipping on quality of service. Most conclude that tipping produces almost no impact on the service one receives. But the same research clearly shows a range of negative social and economic outcomes for both the server and the customer. The only one who really wins is the company owner.


Fundamentally I agree with you. I just prefer to follow a system that I am powerless to change in the US. So this isn't personal against you.

However, I know for a fact that at places where you're a repeat customer (like my favorite restaurants), being recognized as someone who tips fairly and regularly definitely does get better service. There are specific places where I am greeted with an extra smile, free refills where others have to pay, and table service where others order at the counter and have to pick up their food. I do not ask for this extra service, in fact I am sometimes embarrassed about it. I started tipping at these places before they did these special things, and would continue even if they hadn't started.

I used to be much more of a tightwad, but my wife read "Nickle and Dimed" a number of years ago (which I want to read but haven't found time) and she started to push me to be more generous, especially with those who really struggle in the current economy. It made me feel better, and surprised me when it started coming back to me as better service, which I did not expect. Referring it to "Daddy Big Bucks" is a downright insulting cheap shot.

I suspect that if you're a one-off customer, you don't see better service, because the tip is provided after the service is rendered, and they never see you again. The concept of improved service is realistic only for repeat business (in the microeconomic sense). However, in the macroeconomic sense, a broad practice of tipping good wait staff for outstanding service could encourage the good ones to continue doing something that they're good at (instead of finding another job), which over the long term could lead to better service as the good ones continue to populate the trade.

In my prior example of treating the instructor for a couple of meals, I am effectively a repeat customer every day that week, and treating him well at meal time early in the trip will hopefully keep morale up for our captive repeat business the rest of the week.


----------



## chef2sail

TakeFive said:


> This rant is not directed at Jammer Six. I agree with is post:
> 
> "Which changes precisely nothing"...except for destroying your own job/career, abandoning your training, skills, and (possibly) certifications. Nobody has infinite job options, and as Malcolm Gladwell points out, it takes 10,000 hours to get really good at anything new. Not many people have the wherewithal to spend that amount of time retraining from scratch. I wonder how many of these people that say to "just go do something else" would ever follow their own advice. In my book it's right up there with those who claim a woman who is sexually harassed should just go find another job.
> 
> There's this guy from Australia who joined my team about 10 years ago. He joined our lunch group going out to lunch every Friday, and it was clear he was going to nit-pick every restaurant waiter to death as an excuse to stiff him on the tip. One time we were at an authentic Mexican restaurant that the rest of us had been going to regularly for 10 years. Just wonderful, hardworking people running all aspects of that restaurant. He got a free refill on his drink. When he asked for a second refill he was politely notified that he would have to pay for it, as was clearly stated on the menu. We all knew this, but it was irrelevant because we never had stayed long enough to get two refills. But this guy makes a total scene, berating the poor waiter, calling out the manager, etc. And just like always, he used that as an excuse to stiff them on the tip, and insisted that we all stiff him to to show our support. (My other buddy and I snuck back in later to leave money on the table.) Our group couldn't go back to that place for 2 years because we were so embarrassed.
> 
> This guy just pulled this crap all the time at restaurants, so our lunch group fell apart (and secretly regrouped without him). This guy eventually got fired from our company. He had berated his boss into giving him an early promotion that he didn't deserve, and when his boss moved on and the new boss saw this guy underperforming, he was gone. He was constantly complaining about his wife (just the loveliest person you could meet), and was divorced a couple years later. Last I talked to him he was still looking for a job, but couldn't find one because he's now living in a depressed area and can't relocate because of the nasty custody battle he's in with his ex.
> 
> My two main points: 1) Karma is a b!tch, and 2) I just realized that I have a real chip on my shoulder on this topic because when I read posts of people making unrealistic rationalizations why people should not provide gratuities for outstanding service, I think of that damned Aussie that just crapped over everything he touched.
> 
> I know that gratuities for the instructor who is grading you is a potential conflict of interest. I get it. But in cruising schools where the guy is working 24/7 to keep everyone happy, and (in my upcoming case) being flexible and making extra effort to accommodate my spouse's individual training needs, I'm going to happily offer up my appreciation.
> 
> I have no ulterior motives. I am not trying to look like a wealthy aristocrat. I am just trying to follow local custom and be a good customer.
> 
> You can pontificate all you want about the lousy US system that fails to pay a living wage for certain job categories. Given recent events in the US, it's not going to change anytime soon. And the flip side is that it DOES create an incentive for people to go the extra mile to ensure customer satisfaction. So it's not all bad. Just don't use the lousy system as an excuse to stiff people when local custom is to provide gratuities.
> 
> Oh, one last question: Although I've selected the sailing school that I'm going to use, I would be interested in hearing which Caribbean sailing schools positively forbid gratuities. I hear talk of people who say they won't use the ones that IMG_1941.jpg
> 
> Wow...quite a chip.
> 
> You come into the thread and drift it to fit your particular situation which is tipping an instructor which looks really like a cruise with a skipper
> 
> You looked for affirmation about your position knowing all along you intended on tipping them. Then you get others who express their option which differs from yours and you argue you point a few times and then the rant calling others opinions pontification and ridiculing their opinions accusing their well bought out opinions as " just an excuse to avoid tipping"
> 
> In reality it is as who you solicited opinions but when you didn't get blind yes, you felt the need to compare others I guess ( or why else would you have used the Aussie coworkers analogy) to this irrelevant example.
> 
> Open mindedness to others is the only way to learned by.
> 
> To be clear again, I work in the food service industry. I understand gratuity and how it affects employment and it's relevance there. I am a full fledged tipper for excellent service,IMG_1941.jpg
> 
> Tried as you did I didn't see this as relevant to your situation. and it certainly was not the original drift of this thread. Had you started one only on your situation it might have been better.
> 
> I am bareboating a boat with another couple from St Vincent to Grenada in a few months. It may be from the same place you are taking IMHO a crewed charter from . I am sure you and you and Laurie will learn A lot as well as have a great sailing vacation.
> 
> If I was taking a crewed charter I would tip at the end if the service warranted . I don't just tip because of custom . If the service is lousy or the charter captain ignored me for another there I wouldn't feel obligated to tip. Gratuity is for excellent service IMHO after the fact, and is set by the INDIVIDUAL Whois giving the gratuity.
> 
> Most people I have found do not act like the example of your coworker in the rant so I don't see its relevance. Most people I have found don't not leave gratuities when they have been taken care of .
> 
> Let's hope the other people who you don't know and show up on the boat are not DADDY BIG BUCKS and slip an extra $500 gratuity ahead of time to the instructor preventing you from getting equal time and attention.and insuring they get special attention. ( This I why I believe that the gratuity should not be advertised or encouraged)
> 
> I also agree with Mike. Studies have shown no relevance between better service and a potential greater gratuity received.
> 
> Leave what you want and don't worry what others do. It's really their prerogative.
> 
> Enjoy yourselves , anything you learn will continue to add to your sailing repertoire and portfolio and don't sweat the small stuff like gratuities and tips. The Windwards are really beautiful.


----------



## Uricanejack

TakeFive said:


> This rant is not directed at Jammer Six. I agree with is post:
> 
> "Which changes precisely nothing"...except for destroying your own job/career, abandoning your training, skills, and (possibly) certifications. Nobody has infinite job options, and as Malcolm Gladwell points out, it takes 10,000 hours to get really good at anything new. Not many people have the wherewithal to spend that amount of time retraining from scratch. I wonder how many of these people that say to "just go do something else" would ever follow their own advice. In my book it's right up there with those who claim a woman who is sexually harassed should just go find another job.
> 
> There's this guy from Australia who joined my team about 10 years ago. He joined our lunch group going out to lunch every Friday, and it was clear he was going to nit-pick every restaurant waiter to death as an excuse to stiff him on the tip. One time we were at an authentic Mexican restaurant that the rest of us had been going to regularly for 10 years. Just wonderful, hardworking people running all aspects of that restaurant. He got a free refill on his drink. When he asked for a second refill he was politely notified that he would have to pay for it, as was clearly stated on the menu. We all knew this, but it was irrelevant because we never had stayed long enough to get two refills. But this guy makes a total scene, berating the poor waiter, calling out the manager, etc. And just like always, he used that as an excuse to stiff them on the tip, and insisted that we all stiff him to to show our support. (My other buddy and I snuck back in later to leave money on the table.) Our group couldn't go back to that place for 2 years because we were so embarrassed.
> 
> This guy just pulled this crap all the time at restaurants, so our lunch group fell apart (and secretly regrouped without him). This guy eventually got fired from our company. He had berated his boss into giving him an early promotion that he didn't deserve, and when his boss moved on and the new boss saw this guy underperforming, he was gone. He was constantly complaining about his wife (just the loveliest person you could meet), and was divorced a couple years later. Last I talked to him he was still looking for a job, but couldn't find one because he's now living in a depressed area and can't relocate because of the nasty custody battle he's in with his ex.
> 
> My two main points: 1) Karma is a b!tch, and 2) I just realized that I have a real chip on my shoulder on this topic because when I read posts of people making unrealistic rationalizations why people should not provide gratuities for outstanding service, I think of that damned Aussie that just crapped over everything he touched.
> 
> I know that gratuities for the instructor who is grading you is a potential conflict of interest. I get it. But in cruising schools where the guy is working 24/7 to keep everyone happy, and (in my upcoming case) being flexible and making extra effort to accommodate my spouse's individual training needs, I'm going to happily offer up my appreciation.
> 
> I have no ulterior motives. I am not trying to look like a wealthy aristocrat. I am just trying to follow local custom and be a good customer.
> 
> You can pontificate all you want about the lousy US system that fails to pay a living wage for certain job categories. Given recent events in the US, it's not going to change anytime soon. And the flip side is that it DOES create an incentive for people to go the extra mile to ensure customer satisfaction. So it's not all bad. Just don't use the lousy system as an excuse to stiff people when local custom is to provide gratuities.
> 
> Oh, one last question: Although I've selected the sailing school that I'm going to use, I would be interested in hearing which Caribbean sailing schools positively forbid gratuities. I hear talk of people who say they won't use the ones that suggest gratuities, so I'm just curious, "Who ya gonna call?"


My wife has a cousin much like your Ausie Friend. Always kicks up a fuss in a restaurant. To get a deal. Orders all kinds of extras and drinks then offers to spilt the bill in half. 
You can choose your friends but relatives you are stuck with. We never go anywhere we like with him. 
He has been irritating me so much for years, I often quietly tell the waiter what he is going to do and pay a fifty up front to get his order wrong and ignore him. Some places wont do it. But I find its really funny when they do:smile
One of the few times I give an extra big tip.

There are plenty of sailing schools in plenty of nice places for me to choose from. The BVI is not on my Bucket List. Never been there, I have been to the USVI, I went diving there. Every day with the same place, They were very friendly, same with the bars we went to. It was a long time ago. It never occurred to us to tip.

I am rather surprised tipping is so prevalent in the BVI. My experience, In Britain tipping is not the norm.


----------



## Uricanejack

MikeOReilly said:


> Yes, the issue seems to be the growing disparity between front of the house staff who get the tips, and back of the house who don't. As the NYT article write:
> 
> I'm all for generosity, especially from those who have benefited the most in our society. But a tipping culture is a poor way to spread the wealth. Much better ways are through more progressive taxation, and stronger labour laws which support workers' rights. If you want to express appreciation for your position in society, working towards those developments would have far more effect than tipping those who you find provide you with decent service. Of course this doesn't provide the wealthy with the same direct power, or perhaps the same level of self-satisfaction, but it is far more effective and fair.
> 
> As for people continuing to tip even when it is not required &#8230; I don't agree. I think the evidence is already available. Larger restaurant groups usually get assessed a mandatory gratuity (a service charge) on their bill. I've never known people in this situation to offer additional tips (as long as they understand the tip is already included &#8230; sometimes this is not made clear). Uber is another example. They don't allow tips, which is part of the attraction to the growing customer base. It's one of the reasons people say they prefer Uber over standard taxis.
> 
> Not all countries have this tipping culture, and yet most cultures have rich folk. It's part of North American (and Canadian) culture to offer large % tips in restaurants, and now to an expanding group of lower service workers. The main reason has everything to do with low minimum wages for serving staff in the US (the federal tipped minimum wage is $2.13/hr, which hasn't changed since 1991). All this does is off-load wage costs from employers directly onto customers.
> 
> But to bring this back to the question at hand, it would seem a sad statement indeed to start lumping professional sailing/cruising instructors into the category of low-level service staff. It is a relatively new development which can and should be resisted. It does no one any good, except perhaps the owners of sailing schools. And there are still options out there so customers can send the market message to school owners.


I did not know American law allowed for such low wages to tipped employees. I am actually quite shocked.
Any establishment doing so does not deserve my business. I am foolish enough to believe the staff in restaurant's where I live in Canada are paid at least minimum wage. I still tip. 
Everyone deserves a decent wage.


----------



## Uricanejack

Minnewaska said:


> Yes, but as I mentioned above, it's not really due to moral philosophy. As they started (were forced) to pay their staff more per hour, the staff began to get both and were being overpaid, relative to other jobs.
> 
> Anecdotes related to individual preferences, don't really change custom. I dare say that wealthier folks are going to continue to provide gratuities in some fashion, because they can. In order for that to stop, folks would have to refuse to accept them, not simply be paid more by their employer, which I find unlikely across the board. Even if these instructors/captains were paid appropriately, I'm willing to bet most would accept the additional gratuity. And the cycle starts over. If they are commonly paid twice (proper salary plus tip), there is more demand for the job and wages are reduced (or lag behind) to compensate.
> 
> Relatively speaking, everyone on this board is wealthy. Just owning a boat of any size puts one in the upper half of wealth, almost certainly. I find it perfectly acceptable that some achieve more wealth than others, if based upon talent, work ethic or their willingness to take personal risk that paid off. What I find objectionable is hording the money (and I know people that do). If you came up a winner, I think you should spend an appropriate amount of one's wealth (obviously not everything) and that might include paying a bit more to one's servers, dock hands, etc. Personally, I'm very generous, when the service is acceptable. I genuinely appreciate that they are working hard for a living, like I do. The uneducated, single mother at my local watering hole is truly doing the best she can and I tip generously to help. However, I prefer to make that choice, where deserved. I think a no-tip, level wage system probably makes things less expensive for me and ultimately less lucrative for that single mother. Just another perspective.


I don't know how you come to the conclusion we are all wealthy, or how you define wealthy. 
There are people who post here who are not. Some who are. 
Some of us have good jobs in business, trades or professions, others have opted out of this life bought a boat and live on it. 
Some are sailing instructors. Not a method I would recommend for getting wealthy. :smile


----------



## chef2sail

Uricanejack said:


> I did not know American law allowed for such low wages to tipped employees. I am actually quite shocked.
> Any establishment doing so does not deserve my business. I am foolish enough to believe the staff in restaurant's where I live in Canada are paid at least minimum wage. I still tip.
> Everyone deserves a decent wage.


Every restaurant is different. The employer is REQUIRED to insure that the employee is making at least minimum wage through the combination of hourly wages and tips.

Tipped employees are REQUIRED to declare them to the IRS and at least monthly . There is a way % that can be used by the IRS in relationship to total sales to determine this figure if not given by the employee.

In many instances tipped employees do not declare all their tips so the are not taxed on them . Essentially that allows them to have untaxed income .

Every restaurant is different and there is no cookie cutter way to make broad sweeping determinations they are not working for proper wages.

I have known some who are just at minimum wage combined. I also know some servers who make in excess of $80k per year yet only pay tax on 24k.

You be very surprised I think who fits into this category. It's not the upscale places necessarily.

Also wages don't determine total compensation . Benefits such as insurance, also should be considered as that's about 35% extra compensation


----------



## Minnewaska

ianjoub said:


> If you need the tip to survive, you should change careers.


Not so sure. My sister's best friend is a career waitress. She's a pro and is hired by the best places. Most of her income is tips, by far. She raised a daughter on her own and put her through college. She has a skill and reputation, which would allow her to get a job virtually anywhere. Granted, she's an exception in the crowd.


----------



## Minnewaska

MikeOReilly said:


> /////BTW, there are lots of studies into the impact of tipping on quality of service. Most conclude that tipping produces almost no impact on the service one receives.......


This is just a case of deciding which stats prove the point one wants proven.

In practice, we all know that a well recognized good tipper gets better service. It's clearly the case with the dock hands and the waiters at my local watering hole. By contrast, if your rep is to stiff them, you will be last in line for service. After all, the term tip derives from To Insure Promptness. Like it, don't like it, fair, unfair, I'm not debating.

It's only in the macro-economic sense, where many people just leave the tip like it was a tax and do not vary it based upon service, that overwhelm the stats. That's pretty dumb, but I do agree it happens frequently. I propose an hypothesis that these auto-tippers are often the same folks that fail to tip when it's not obvious they should (dock hand, etc), as they clearly fail to withhold when they should.


----------



## Minnewaska

Uricanejack said:


> I don't know how you come to the conclusion we are all wealthy, or how you define wealthy.
> There are people who post here who are not. Some who are.
> Some of us have good jobs in business, trades or professions, others have opted out of this life bought a boat and live on it.
> Some are sailing instructors. Not a method I would recommend for getting wealthy. :smile


Would you agree one is wealthy, if they are in the top 50% of net worth? Last I looked, in the US, if the value of the stuff you own (assets:cash, car, 401k, house, boat) is greater than what you owe (debt:mortgage, credit cards, etc) you are in the top half of wealth in the country. World wide, if you have a positive net worth, you are in an even higher percentage.

This is a very different point than whether one makes sufficient income to feed and house themselves.

I can't extrapolate, but I'm willing to wager one is typically in the top quartile of wealth, if one owns a boat. I'm also willing to wager that most wait staff and Caribbean sailboat instructors are not.

Many just think of 1% as wealthy, when many are relatively more wealthy than they realize. The fact that the next guy may be more wealthy obscures reality.


----------



## ianjoub

TakeFive said:


> However, I know for a fact that at places where you're a repeat customer (like my favorite restaurants), being recognized as someone who tips fairly and regularly definitely does get better service. There are specific places where I am greeted with an extra smile, *free refills where others have to pay*,


So, you freely admit that you are in a conspiracy to steal from the restaurant owner? You could be in jail for that along with the server(s) who are conspiring with you to steal.


----------



## jephotog

ianjoub said:


> So, you freely admit that you are in a conspiracy to steal from the restaurant owner? You could be in jail for that along with the server(s) who are conspiring with you to steal.


It's a huge conspiracy and TakeFive has learned to game the system. The only reason he tips generously is for the free sodas. I am giving him a free pass because he invests all the money he saves by getting free refills into the boating industry.:grin

I think the idea here is you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Not just with Karma but it pays to be generous and a regular patron of a restaurant. A restaurant owner or manager will often comp an appetizer or dessert to a regular. It is good business to take care of good customers.

Just as the good customer is known those problem customers are known as well. When the staff sees the complainers, demanders or non tippers come in the last person to say "not it" usually gets these problem customers. Nobody wants to deal with these people that require more work and then stiff you. As much as these problem customer think they are gaming the system the service they get reflect the loathing the server has for them. A good server like a good boat captain can above and beyond in the service they provide to make the most of the meal or the vacation.

I have a family member I avoid dining out with because I am embarrassed at how difficult they can be to the servers and I have to go back after eating to "use the bathroom" and supplement the tip if he pays.


----------



## SVAuspicious

TakeFive said:


> I have no ulterior motives. I am not trying to look like a wealthy aristocrat. I am just trying to follow local custom and be a good customer.





TakeFive said:


> However, I know for a fact that at places where you're a repeat customer (like my favorite restaurants), being recognized as someone who tips fairly and regularly definitely does get better service.





TakeFive said:


> In my prior example of treating the instructor for a couple of meals, I am effectively a repeat customer every day that week, and treating him well at meal time early in the trip will hopefully keep morale up for our captive repeat business the rest of the week.


I try to be a good customer, both BTB and personal. That doesn't mean rolling over, especially for my own customers.

Restaurants are easy to talk about. We have a few places where we are regulars and they are glad to see us. We tip reasonably and if there is a problem we let them know so they can do something about it. Once in a while they let us know that they appreciate our business, recommendations, and Yelp and Google reviews (*grin*) and gift us with something. Not long ago I went to pick up a quart of hot and sour soup at our favorite Chinese restaurant when Janet and I were both sick. The owner figured out the context and shooed me out the door with the soup, some little extras, and a pat on the head at no charge. Being a regular is a relationship and there is give and take. I'm guessing but I bet the cost to them was a couple of dollars.

I have a similar relationship on a BTB basis with a lot of vendors around Annapolis. The companies know they can count on me and many of the employees know me and trust me also. My customers get good prices and when there is a real time crunch the vendors make an extra effort. Riggers, HVAC guys, chandlers, general services pitch in and help because they know I drive business their way, accommodate their issues, and don't "cry wolf" about time. I've had one of the best HVAC guys in the country work late for me (well, for one of my customers) while I made him dinner. Give and take.

I do a lot of provisioning in Annapolis, Newport, and Fort Lauderdale. I've built relationships with managers at Giant, Sam's Club, Shaw's, and Publix. When I don't have ground transportation I've gotten rides. I get help with boxes and loading.

This goes well beyond tipping to building relationships and being nice to people. A business relationship does not conflict with be polite and considerate.


----------



## MikeOReilly

TakeFive said:


> Fundamentally I agree with you. I just prefer to follow a system that I am powerless to change in the US. So this isn't personal against you.


But this isn't about being in the US. I thought you were taking a course in the Caribbean 

And while I know it's difficult, this is about the expansion of the tipping culture into a relatively new area; that of professional sailboat instructor. Wasn't it you who asked if this was appropriate. I, and others, say it should be resisted as it is an unhealthy trend which allows for the exploitation of workers.

I'll state this again so perhaps you can hear me: This is NOT about being a tightwad. If you want, I can argue that those who support the tipping culture are the real tightwads. But this is not about what happens in the US. This is about the expansion of a demeaning and damaging economic model into other sectors and other countries.



TakeFive said:


> However, I know for a fact that at places where you're a repeat customer (like my favorite restaurants), being recognized as someone who tips fairly and regularly definitely does get better service.


Well, the funny thing about humans is that we always believe we are one of the outliers. And it is counterintuitive; we all believe tipping results in better service (as the abstract points out: "[the] relationship was much smaller than is generally supposed"). All I can tell you is the research shows a real but weak connection between tips and service quality. Research also shows correlations (weak and strong) between skin colour, sex, age and a whole host of other factors. Here is an abstract from a meta analysis paper published by the Cornell University School of Hotel Administration:

Gratitude and Gratuity: A Meta-analysis of Research on the Service-tipping Relationship



> The relationship between tip size and evaluations of the service was assessed in a meta-analysis of 7 published and 6 unpublished studies involving 2,547 dining parties at 20 di erent restaurants. Consistent with theories about equity motivation and the economic functions of tipping, there was a positive and statistically signi cant relationship between tip size and service evaluations. However, that relationship was much smaller than is generally supposed. e confounding e ects of customer mood and patronage frequency as well as the reverse-causality e ects of server favoritism toward big tippers were all examined and shown to be insu cient explanations for the correlation between tipping and service evaluations. ese ndings suggest that tippers are concerned about equitable economic relationships with servers, but that equity e ects may be too weak for tip size to serve as a valid measure of server performance or for tipping to serve as an e ective incentive for delivering good service.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Uricanejack said:


> I did not know American law allowed for such low wages to tipped employees. I am actually quite shocked.
> Any establishment doing so does not deserve my business. I am foolish enough to believe the staff in restaurant's where I live in Canada are paid at least minimum wage. I still tip.
> Everyone deserves a decent wage.


Yes &#8230; this is what a tipping culture supports: low wages and a shift of the expense and risk of employees away from the company. The ones who mostly benefit are the owners (not withstanding the various "sister's best friend" anecdotes).

As for Canada, we have higher minimum wages in general, although they are still too low to be considered living wages. But a few of our provinces allow for servers to be paid less (BC and Ontario I think).

If you want to read more about the tipping culture I suggest this piece in the HuffPo. I know &#8230; it's not a research journal, but it does offer some interesting research and info about the whole issue, including listing the *six proven ways for waiters to increase their tips:*


Be the opposite gender of your customer
Ideally, be a slender, attractive, big-breasted blond in your 30s
Introduce yourself by name
Sit at the table or squat next to it when taking the order
Touch the customer, in a non-creepy way
Give the customer candy when you bring the check

Also interesting is his tipper spectrum:










Everything You Don't Know About Tipping


----------



## TakeFive

ianjoub said:


> So, you freely admit that you are in a conspiracy to steal from the restaurant owner? You could be in jail for that along with the server(s) who are conspiring with you to steal.


Tell me you're exaggerating as a joke. In the absence of emoticons to verify, I'll respond as if it isn't.

Regarding my felonious conspiracy of stealing free soft drinks, I am referring to two family owned counter service places, and in both cases the owner was aware. In one, a pizza shop, the owner Nick directed the school kids working for him to give my family free refills on a numerous occasions. Often Nick is not there, and due to turnover the new kids don't know this, and I haven't ever requested it. As I said, there are times that I am embarrassed by it. In the other case, it was the owner's girlfriend Kelly who did it (on dozens of occasions), along with always giving me and my family 7 or 8 wings when we only ordered 5. They're out of business now, so I guess I'm responsible for that. I should ask her, since we're also friends on Facebook.

My more important point is this: These are not expensive places. They are local dives that you drop in and get a lunch for $7 or so. There's no table service, so no overt expectation of a tip. There's merely a tip jar on the counter, which I used to ignore or throw in spare change. Now, at my wife's suggestion, I always throw in $1 or $2, more if we have a large order. I have been amazed at how much goodwill a couple dollars buys. It makes a difference to these struggling young employees, and the owners appreciate it even though they don't personally get the tips. One example I just remembered is the time my son left his Gameboy at Nick's place. There was a message on our phone when we got home, and they brought it to our house for us. Treat people well and they'll return it in spades.



MikeOReilly said:


> But this isn't about being in the US. I thought you were taking a course in the Caribbean ]


My initial question was about local custom regarding gratruities for sailing instructors in the Caribberan (Grenada and the Grenadines, which may be different custom from BVI and USVI). And it was later answered by the school owner in his checklist that I received AFTER I posted my question (despite chef2sail's repeated accusations to the contrary).

However, the overall topic of this thread broadened to include US custom, largely because someone started criticizing the tipping culture in the US. Oh, that's right, it was YOU who did that! lol (not an attack, I realize it was others too, including myself.) And, as I think I said already, I fundamentally agree with you.



MikeOReilly said:


> ...I'll state this again so perhaps you can hear me: This is NOT about being a tightwad. If you want, I can argue that those who support the tipping culture are the real tightwads. But this is not about what happens in the US. This is about the expansion of a demeaning and damaging economic model into other sectors and other countries....


I think I referred to myself (not you) as a tightwad - but a reformed one. I regret if I made it seem like I was calling you that.

I think I agree with about 80% of what you are saying. The remaining 20% is about how to change the system. I see refusal to follow that system as doing relatively little to change it. Proposals to only patronize places that ban tips only encourages good behavior if the boss demonstrates that he's paying a fair base wage, and most companies don't want to open their books like that. In fact, there have been lawsuits over establishments that eliminate tipping by assessing "service fees." In some of those cases it was shown that customers were misled into thinking that service fee was going entirely to the servers, when a significant part of it was going into the owner's pocket. So eliminating tips does not fix things if the business owners are unscrupulous.

By the way, I'm still waiting to see the names of any Caribbean sailing schools that strictly prohibit gratuities and tips. "Who ya gonna call?"

As for the repeated accusation that I already knew my answer when I asked my original question, that is simply not true. I received information from the sailing school only within the last couple of days. And it's just as possible that you guys would have answered that gratuities in Grenada and the Grenadines is strongly looked down upon and gets you labeled as a "******." An unequivocal answer like this may have changed my mind, in the absence of the information that I received from the owner of the sailing school.

I am also puzzled by the suggestion that the sailing school we're attending is just a glorified crewed charter. In both verbal discussions and written information, it has been emphasized by the owner that this school is an intensive hands-on learning experience, requiring advance preparation including reading of several texts (since nobody wants to do classroom stuff on the boat), training exercises to be done ahead of time, and ASA written and practical certification tests. All food prep and cleanup is done by the students as part of the ASA advanced cruising curriculum. I'm not sure the motivation for belittling the educational component of this. I've bareboat chartered multiple times before, and my expectations are that this is a different experience to meet different objectives.


----------



## Minnewaska

takefive said:


> ....by the way, i'm still waiting to see the names of any caribbean sailing schools that strictly prohibit gratuities and tips.


+1


----------



## Minnewaska

There is no right or wrong answer here, just what individuals prefer. 

Ironically, without tipping, the individual has no say in the matter.


----------



## jephotog

MikeOReilly said:


> Be the opposite gender of your customer
> Ideally, be a slender, attractive, big-breasted blond in your 30s
> Introduce yourself by name
> Sit at the table or squat next to it when taking the order
> Touch the customer, in a non-creepy way
> Give the customer candy when you bring the check
> [/URL]


It is some low rent dining establishments for these methods to work. At the end of most recent sailing trip I took my wife to eat when we got back to shore. It was a well rated restaurant but nothing fancy. I was bothered by the homey/smarmy touching and squatting at the table. To make matters worse he was flat chested. His service was not bad, so I still tipped him 20%.


----------



## MikeOReilly

TakeFive said:


> ...I think I agree with about 80% of what you are saying. The remaining 20% is about how to change the system. I see refusal to follow that system as doing relatively little to change it. ...


I agree we mostly agree , and I'm sorry for adding to the drift into the US restaurant tipping culture. My main emphasis is to say that tipping is not a healthy economic model, and its expansion into sailing schools should be resisted. I agree it is difficult, but I don't know any other way to do something like this other than to refusing to add to the problem. Yes, my little effort does little, which is why I'm encouraging all SN users to follow suit. One person can be ignored. When everyone stands up, the businesses will respond.

And the answer is simple: Price the product/service to include the real cost. It's what used to happen, and still does at some companies.



TakeFive said:


> By the way, I'm still waiting to see the names of any Caribbean sailing schools that strictly prohibit gratuities and tips. "Who ya gonna call?"


I posted the school that my wife used (twice) in the Caribbean. No tip was suggested or requested. Do I need to post it again? I can also give you the school's name of the places I used in Canada. I also recall that a sailing instructor wrote here that one school he teaches with encourages tips, while the other one doesn't. They are out there, but if we all just roll over and accept this expansion of the tipping culture, then it will become the norm.

I am not opposed to real tipping. If you want to tip exceptional service, then do so. The scenarios we are discussion with the charter and sailing school instructors are NOT real tips. They are simply a way to off load the risk and cost of workers onto the customer and away from the employer.


----------



## Minnesail

MikeOReilly said:


> we all believe tipping results in better service (as the abstract points out: "[the] relationship was much smaller than is generally supposed"). All I can tell you is the research shows a real but weak connection between tips and service quality. Research also shows correlations (weak and strong) between skin colour, sex, age and a whole host of other factors. Here is an abstract from a meta analysis paper published by the Cornell University School of Hotel Administration:
> 
> Gratitude and Gratuity: A Meta-analysis of Research on the Service-tipping Relationship





MikeOReilly said:


> *six proven ways for waiters to increase their tips:*
> 
> 
> Be the opposite gender of your customer
> Ideally, be a slender, attractive, big-breasted blond in your 30s
> Introduce yourself by name
> Sit at the table or squat next to it when taking the order
> Touch the customer, in a non-creepy way
> Give the customer candy when you bring the check


When I was in my 20s I was waiter at an upscale Mediterranean restaurant in a city of about 50,000. My girlfriend dealt pull-tabs (sort of low-rent lottery tickets) from the gambling booth at a seedy bowling alley bar.

Neither of us were doing particularly well, tip-wise. For that, and a couple other reasons, we switched jobs. Both of got much better tips doing the other person's job!

She mostly hit the first two items on the list above, so that explains her higher tips.

I'm not sure why I got more tips at the pull-tab booth. I guess tipping on gambling relies on the superstition that the person handing you the cards actually affects your odds, and maybe since I'm significantly taller and more male than her people assumed I had more authority? Dunno.

Btw, since this was a smallish town I suspect that tipping affected service more than in the study you linked to. In a town of 50,000 there aren't that many regular restaurant patrons and there aren't that many servers, and we servers absolutely kept track of and shared info on who tipped.


----------



## mstern

MikeOReilly said:


> Yes &#8230; this is what a tipping culture supports: low wages and a shift of the expense and risk of employees away from the company. The ones who mostly benefit are the owners (not withstanding the various "sister's best friend" anecdotes).
> 
> As for Canada, we have higher minimum wages in general, although they are still too low to be considered living wages. But a few of our provinces allow for servers to be paid less (BC and Ontario I think).
> 
> If you want to read more about the tipping culture I suggest this piece in the HuffPo. I know &#8230; it's not a research journal, but it does offer some interesting research and info about the whole issue, including listing the *six proven ways for waiters to increase their tips:*
> 
> 
> Be the opposite gender of your customer
> Ideally, be a slender, attractive, big-breasted blond in your 30s
> Introduce yourself by name
> Sit at the table or squat next to it when taking the order
> Touch the customer, in a non-creepy way
> Give the customer candy when you bring the check
> 
> Also interesting is his tipper spectrum:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everything You Don't Know About Tipping


I love that spectrum! So on average, no one group is a very good or very bad tipper! Fascinating. I will say that I just returned from two weeks in France and Italy; it was a pleasure to see a service charge tacked on to every check in every restaurant we went to. Other than tipping a guide here and there, we didn't have to put anything extra out. I found it refreshing. And the service was just as good as here in the US of A.


----------



## SVAuspicious

MikeOReilly said:


> Be the opposite gender of your customer
> Ideally, be a slender, attractive, big-breasted blond in your 30s
> Introduce yourself by name
> Sit at the table or squat next to it when taking the order
> Touch the customer, in a non-creepy way
> Give the customer candy when you bring the check


I don't care about your gender.

I don't care about what you look like as long as you are clean and presentable.

I don't want to be your friend. I want my meal well served.

Don't sit with me - see above. It's intrusive.

Don't touch me.

I'd rather have a celery stick than candy.

Be polite. Be present without hovering. Be fast. Let me know what is going in if the kitchen is jammed. Be pleasant. Don't interrupt if we're talking. Pay attention to if my mouth is full.


----------



## chef2sail

Minnewaska said:


> Not so sure. My sister's best friend is a career waitress. She's a pro and is hired by the best places. Most of her income is tips, by far. She raised a daughter on her own and put her through college. She has a skill and reputation, which would allow her to get a job virtually anywhere. Granted, she's an exception in the crowd.


A servers job is not as easy as you think. Most people would have trouble handling 2 tables of four let alone five. Everyone you wait on is an expert . Everyone you serve in a restaurant is a self proclaimed Julia Child's. Most think the job can only be done and is being done on a transitional basis. If have huge respect for someone who can handle 15 different changing personalities at a time.


----------



## Jammer Six

Everyone has different expectations.

I like the hard core version.

The lady who waits tables in some greasy spoon that serves loggers, carpenters and truck drivers. The kind of place that opens exactly at 5:30 AM, although the doors are open and you can get your own damn coffee from the pot starting at 5:00.

She knows all of you by name, she knows what you want for breakfast, and at 5:32, she comes charging out of the kitchen, loaded with 14 eggs, 2 omelettes, 8 strips of bacon, a dozen links of sausage, extra butter and 8 pancakes on five plates. When one of the animals at the table grabs for her ass, she swings her hips and he misses. She'll call you honey unless you touch her, then she'll hit you with her pad. Don't push it past that. She'll never call you anything after that, and every man there loves her, one way or another.

Don't waste her time. Know what you want, give her your order, or shut up and leave her be. When she checks back if everything is okay, tell her, but don't wave for her attention every time you see her. She'll be back. Believe it. She's not kidding when she asks you if there's anything else you need. It's a time-management issue, and if you need something, the nicest thing you can do is tell her, rather than call her back over it.

She makes as much in tips on the breakfast shift as a J-man carpenter who works for eight hours, and she's worth it. Every step she takes counts at least twice. No movement is wasted.

My kind of girl. I don't care how old she is or what she looks like. She's the one I tip the most.

Before I retired, I ran a business. One of my tricks was to take a prospect out to dinner and watch how he or she treated the waitress. That told me exactly how he was going to treat my foreman.


----------



## Minnewaska

Jammer Six said:


> ........One of my tricks was to take a prospect out to dinner and watch how he or she treated the waitress. That told me exactly how he was going to treat my foreman.


This is a very important value of mine too. You always treat anyone that is serving you with respect. I was taught and I taught my kids that you put your fork down, when someone is at the table serving you, and you thank them for whatever they just brought or did.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Minnewaska said:


> This is a very important value of mine too. You always treat anyone that is serving you with respect. I was taught and I taught my kids that you put your fork down, when someone is at the table serving you, and you thank them for whatever they just brought or did.


Agreed. Nothing more painful than to see someone treating another person disrespectfully.

To me, a big part of treating workers with respect includes having them paid a wage they can live on, and not just depend on the whims of customers to tip, or not.


----------



## chef2sail

MikeOReilly said:


> Agreed. Nothing more painful than to see someone treating another person disrespectfully.
> 
> To me, a big part of treating workers with respect includes having them paid a wage they can live on, and not just depend on the whims of customers to tip, or not.


I think we all agree about the respect factor about how people should be treated and have been in agreement with the wages being a factor in that.

To most people this is an intellectual excercise in statements , but let's talk about the financial and cold facts.

I can only speak to restaurants and food service operations which I have periwnce in for over 40 years from the back of the house positions as a certified executive chef to the entire operation where I currently am responsible for the operations of over 25 restaurants.

Many see on,y a superficial snapshot of the restaurant business from a patrons point of view and typically analyze what it takes to operate a financially successful operation which general has a very small profit margin of 5-7 % despite the large cash flowing through it. From this snapshot assumptions are made by most because of the prevelant attitude that it's simple to operate. Same attitude present as most home cooks or individual cooks who think they are semi chefs. Maybe this is why 95 % of new restaurants fail the first year ( financially) 95% of those left the second year and so on. So to sit behind a computer desk or sipping a drink you beleive you can unerdstand or operate a restaurant as a successful business and keep people employed in a stable business is grossly underestimating the complexity. That won't stop those from trying to oversimplify things though.

Professionals run and work in restaurants. Many make their careers in this line of business. Not only the managers ( chefs, front of the house, accountants) but also the line staff ( servers, bartenders, cooks, kitchen utiliity , hosts etc. ) . It is the responsibility of the owner to insure they all stay gainfully employees and have safe jobs, by practicing food safety, work safety, training, customer service , and also fiscal responsibility. This will also lead to a profit and sustained business if operated successfully.

This is ALl restaurants from the fast food, diners, mom and pops as well as the chains and individual restaurants as well as hotels, casinos and even the hot dog stand and McDonalds.

Wages and food cost get passed through to customers . Food cost is controlled by the market through the chef/ kitchen manager. Wages by the owner general manager insuring that LAWS set by the government both state and federal are adhered to. All restaurants are required to meet minimum wAge laws. ALL of them. In addition the restaurant must add workmanship, com, unemployment insurance, on to that. That usually encompasses at lleast 33% on top of the minimum wage as a minimum. Many pAy their employees or partial pay medical benefits , long term and short term medical on top of that.

Knowing all that, again from the simplest to the most complex restaurant all wages costs like the food cost must be passed on to the customer. McDonalds as an ecxample does that. ThTs why your Happy Meal cost over $6 now. All employees make minimum wage which is over $7 per hr at least . When it gets raised to a " decent " wage as many pontificate say $15 per hour, your ' happy meal " will now cost in excess of $9. MYC Donald's may be able to weather this because it buys in bulk national contracts for food and cab negotiate big contracts. Owner operated restaurants will suffer the most. Many will get priced out of business as most consumers won't pay for an omelet which costs $8 most of the cost going to labor. They will go out of business, the fail rate for restaurants will increase from the staggering one now.

Many restaurants adopt the tipping as part of this minimum wage. Some here have objected strenuously to that and aimed the intention on scurrilous managers/ owners. Again an oversimplified snapshot generalization without in depth knowledge. But it's the Internet and anyone can have an opinion. Right or wrong.

A restaurant which utilizes tipping to help pay for the service employees must still meet minimum wage guidelines. And if it does not must raise its hourly wage. Cooks,and BOH don't receive tips normally. We are talking about FOH employees like waitstaff and bar staff. Tipped employees must declRe them for 1- they must pay taxes. And 2- the owner must insure the make minimum wage to meet legal responsibilities. The owner still pays that 33% mentioned before for the unemployment, workmanship comp, and May additionally supply medical, and disability for them An average server making an hourly wage of $5 / hr is actually costing the restaurant almost $6.75 / hr not counting tips.

Let's a few examples;

A Friday's server making $5/ hr . Aver working hours per shift is 6 for FT. 5 shifts per week. Average number of tables per station:5. Average seat per station . 20. Average check per person $12 before taxes . Avery customers per ****: 50. Average tips per shift assuming 12% ( which is low) $62. That's and additional $10+ per hour on top of the $5 base rate. Doesn't include company paid benefits. So the base rate is $15 per hour. 
I have been very conservative here as $60 in tips per shift is very light compared to reality . Usually the servers only declare taxes up to a little more than minimum wages so the majority of the money is tax free.. Now let's do away with the tip philosophy and go to a higher wage of $10 / hour. That $5 borne by the owner as direct cost. The price of your food will go up an average of $2 or guess what...they owner will go bankrupt. No one gets employed. If you asked most tipped employees whether they would want to remain that way or get a gaurenteed wage.....the overwhelming response would be tipped.

This is just one example. I will post other examples in the future.

Understand I do not support anyone taking advantage of any employee. I have respect for all, which does not only include their wages, but also insures they have a stable job with a company run responsibly.

My point is that what you appear to see in a snapshot cannot necessarily be oversimplified to a statement of fact followed by a general principal.


----------



## Jammer Six

MikeOReilly said:


> To me, a big part of treating workers with respect includes having them paid a wage they can live on, and not just depend on the whims of customers to tip, or not.


That's not your decision. Your decisions are limited to A) deciding whether or not to eat there based on the wages for all employees, which you don't check, and B) deciding what the tip is. (Zero is a tip.)

So if you really believe what you wrote, you leave nice tips every time.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Jammer Six said:


> That's not your decision. Your decisions are limited to A) deciding whether or not to eat there based on the wages for all employees, which you don't check, and B) deciding what the tip is. (Zero is a tip.)
> 
> So if you really believe what you wrote, you leave nice tips every time.


Of course it is my decision. It is my decision to support politicians and policies that advocate for an expansion of workers' rights. It is my decision to support actions that enhance the living standards of all workers. And yes, it is my decision not to patronize business which are known to abuse their employees.

We're all bamboozled into thinking we can't do anything. We can &#8230; if we act together. Teaching THIS to your children will go a lot further than telling them to say "thank you" when served (which I agree, is also important).

And yes, I tip well at restaurants all the time. I do this b/c this is the current reality for these workers. I don't tip in places that represent an extension of this dysfunctional economic model.

I fully agree with you chef2sail, the costs should be bourne by the customer. In the case of restaurants, it already is, but through the tipping. My understanding is that the restaurants who are trying the no-tip model have increased their meal costs no more than the typical tip+meal price, so the customer is not paying any more.


----------



## SVAuspicious

chef2sail said:


> McDonalds as an ecxample does that. ThTs why your Happy Meal cost over $6 now. All employees make minimum wage which is over $7 per hr at least . When it gets raised to a " decent " wage as many pontificate say $15 per hour, your ' happy meal " will now cost in excess of $9. MYC Donald's may be able to weather this because it buys in bulk national contracts for food and cab negotiate big contracts.


McDonalds and other fast food chains are working had on customer-operated ordering to reduce labor costs in face of a higher minimum wage. Some people will make more while others will lose their jobs. To date the savings of automation hasn't been worth the investment. Impending increases in minimum change the arithmetic.

Unlikely to spread to fine dining, but some mid-range chains are already using at-table ordering and pay systems.

I have seen reporting of unexpected results in urban areas that have increased minimum wages. Some--a statistically significant number--of employees have cut back on hours so they can continue to qualify for social programs. Not was predicted by the supporters of higher minimum wage.


----------



## Uricanejack

chef2sail said:


> I think we all agree about the respect factor about how people should be treated and have been in agreement with the wages being a factor in that.
> 
> To most people this is an intellectual excercise in statements , but let's talk about the financial and cold facts.
> 
> I can only speak to restaurants and food service operations which I have periwnce in for over 40 years from the back of the house positions as a certified executive chef to the entire operation where I currently am responsible for the operations of over 25 restaurants.
> 
> Many see on,y a superficial snapshot of the restaurant business from a patrons point of view and typically analyze what it takes to operate a financially successful operation which general has a very small profit margin of 5-7 % despite the large cash flowing through it. From this snapshot assumptions are made by most because of the prevelant attitude that it's simple to operate. Same attitude present as most home cooks or individual cooks who think they are semi chefs. Maybe this is why 95 % of new restaurants fail the first year ( financially) 95% of those left the second year and so on. So to sit behind a computer desk or sipping a drink you beleive you can unerdstand or operate a restaurant as a successful business and keep people employed in a stable business is grossly underestimating the complexity. That won't stop those from trying to oversimplify things though.
> 
> Professionals run and work in restaurants. Many make their careers in this line of business. Not only the managers ( chefs, front of the house, accountants) but also the line staff ( servers, bartenders, cooks, kitchen utiliity , hosts etc. ) . It is the responsibility of the owner to insure they all stay gainfully employees and have safe jobs, by practicing food safety, work safety, training, customer service , and also fiscal responsibility. This will also lead to a profit and sustained business if operated successfully.
> 
> This is ALl restaurants from the fast food, diners, mom and pops as well as the chains and individual restaurants as well as hotels, casinos and even the hot dog stand and McDonalds.
> 
> Wages and food cost get passed through to customers . Food cost is controlled by the market through the chef/ kitchen manager. Wages by the owner general manager insuring that LAWS set by the government both state and federal are adhered to. All restaurants are required to meet minimum wAge laws. ALL of them. In addition the restaurant must add workmanship, com, unemployment insurance, on to that. That usually encompasses at lleast 33% on top of the minimum wage as a minimum. Many pAy their employees or partial pay medical benefits , long term and short term medical on top of that.
> 
> Knowing all that, again from the simplest to the most complex restaurant all wages costs like the food cost must be passed on to the customer. McDonalds as an ecxample does that. ThTs why your Happy Meal cost over $6 now. All employees make minimum wage which is over $7 per hr at least . When it gets raised to a " decent " wage as many pontificate say $15 per hour, your ' happy meal " will now cost in excess of $9. MYC Donald's may be able to weather this because it buys in bulk national contracts for food and cab negotiate big contracts. Owner operated restaurants will suffer the most. Many will get priced out of business as most consumers won't pay for an omelet which costs $8 most of the cost going to labor. They will go out of business, the fail rate for restaurants will increase from the staggering one now.
> 
> Many restaurants adopt the tipping as part of this minimum wage. Some here have objected strenuously to that and aimed the intention on scurrilous managers/ owners. Again an oversimplified snapshot generalization without in depth knowledge. But it's the Internet and anyone can have an opinion. Right or wrong.
> 
> A restaurant which utilizes tipping to help pay for the service employees must still meet minimum wage guidelines. And if it does not must raise its hourly wage. Cooks,and BOH don't receive tips normally. We are talking about FOH employees like waitstaff and bar staff. Tipped employees must declRe them for 1- they must pay taxes. And 2- the owner must insure the make minimum wage to meet legal responsibilities. The owner still pays that 33% mentioned before for the unemployment, workmanship comp, and May additionally supply medical, and disability for them An average server making an hourly wage of $5 / hr is actually costing the restaurant almost $6.75 / hr not counting tips.
> 
> Let's a few examples;
> 
> A Friday's server making $5/ hr . Aver working hours per shift is 6 for FT. 5 shifts per week. Average number of tables per station:5. Average seat per station . 20. Average check per person $12 before taxes . Avery customers per ****: 50. Average tips per shift assuming 12% ( which is low) $62. That's and additional $10+ per hour on top of the $5 base rate. Doesn't include company paid benefits. So the base rate is $15 per hour.
> I have been very conservative here as $60 in tips per shift is very light compared to reality . Usually the servers only declare taxes up to a little more than minimum wages so the majority of the money is tax free.. Now let's do away with the tip philosophy and go to a higher wage of $10 / hour. That $5 borne by the owner as direct cost. The price of your food will go up an average of $2 or guess what...they owner will go bankrupt. No one gets employed. If you asked most tipped employees whether they would want to remain that way or get a gaurenteed wage.....the overwhelming response would be tipped.
> 
> This is just one example. I will post other examples in the future.
> 
> Understand I do not support anyone taking advantage of any employee. I have respect for all, which does not only include their wages, but also insures they have a stable job with a company run responsibly.
> 
> My point is that what you appear to see in a snapshot cannot necessarily be oversimplified to a statement of fact followed by a general principal.


Interesting.

Some of the numbers I agree with though a little bit surprised. The benefits package where I work is 38% over and above the dollar figure paid as salary. I am a bit surprised its so close. I am in Canada you are in the US and our industries are very different. The 38% will probably vary a bit give or take a few points with particular contracts and packages.

I do notice going to a McDonalds in the US is cheaper than going to a McDonalds even with the exchange rate. 
A meal deal here varies 6 to 8 bucks Can. I still get my Coffee and McMuffin for about 3 bucks in the morning. 
BC does have the lowest minimum wage in Canada or so I'm told. BC also allows a lower rate for younger trainee workers. But otherwise they pay a higher minimum wage and I still stop in and by a meal.

Other restaurants I do notice how hard it is to survive. Particularly in a small community which relies on tourists, surviving the winter. Most don't. 
I suspect the common complaint here is slow service. There is not a lot of waiters. The owner is often out front in winter 
with maybe on other server. 
Back in the big smoke. places are much busier with much more staff. I pay more or higher prices in a nice restaurant than I would in the US. I still go I still tip.

One of the big disadvantages of a tipped income. Its not steady. Quiet night no tips. Busy night lots of tips. Ok just part of the industry and life.

The really unfair part. is the benefits. You don't pay your 35 % on total income do you. You pay it on the 5 bucks per hour or the minimum. 
So the sick pay, disability, compensation is based on only the 5 bucks. So if the employee goes sick, it really hurts.

One way or another the cost gets passed on to the customer. Upfront or after the fact as a tip. Either way I will still go out. Do I go to high end places often. No. Just occasionally for special occasions. Mid range, Yes when I travel on business. When I am out sailing yes because I enjoy it. 
reality where minimum wage rules require all employers to pay it will make an even playing field.

Right now a employer who pays his or her staff a higher rate will end up being more expensive than those who don't. making it unrealistic.

Anyway here in BC I am well used to the idea and tip similar amounts routinely in restaurants. both the small operators who struggle through the winter with few staff and slow service.(Most are within walking distance of the dock) And the big ones in the big smoke.


----------



## chef2sail

You are correct on all counts I think. 

The percentage of 35% would be paid on the minimum wage not on the $5. The assumption is that the person makes at least the minimum wage. This accounts for the workmanship comp and unemployment insurance part

If their are benefits they are a fixed cost per employee so there is no difference. These benefits are usually rated on a basis of full time or part time with companies determining full time status as 30-32 hours


----------



## chef2sail

MikeOReilly said:


> Of course it is my decision. It is my decision to support politicians and policies that advocate for an expansion of workers' rights. It is my decision to support actions that enhance the living standards of all workers. And yes, it is my decision not to patronize business which are known to abuse their employees.
> 
> We're all bamboozled into thinking we can't do anything. We can &#8230; if we act together. Teaching THIS to your children will go a lot further than telling them to say "thank you" when served (which I agree, is also important).
> 
> And yes, I tip well at restaurants all the time. I do this b/c this is the current reality for these workers. I don't tip in places that represent an extension of this dysfunctional economic model.
> 
> I fully agree with you chef2sail, the costs should be bourne by the customer. In the case of restaurants, it already is, but through the tipping. My understanding is that the restaurants who are trying the no-tip model have increased their meal costs no more than the typical tip+meal price, so the customer is not paying any more.


I am not promoting a static or increased minimum wage merely pointing out the relationship and trying to get out there the effect of tipping as it relates to the industry.

Mike can you tell me what metric examples or where you found the information that" restaurants which have tried the no tip model have increased their meal costs no more than a typical tip+ meal price so the customer is not paying more"

That is not only counterintuitive, I have found empirical as well as witness personally the exact opposite.

In my next example ( after we return from going out to dinner) I will give some interesting no tip ones.
One involves a casino another a diner where they instituted a $12 an hour wages plus benefits and displayed NO TIPPING signage.


----------



## chef2sail

SVAuspicious said:


> I don't care about your gender.
> 
> I don't care about what you look like as long as you are clean and presentable.
> 
> I don't want to be your friend. I want my meal well served.
> 
> Don't sit with me - see above. It's intrusive.
> 
> Don't touch me.
> 
> I'd rather have a celery stick than candy.
> 
> Be polite. Be present without hovering. Be fast. Let me know what is going in if the kitchen is jammed. Be pleasant. Don't interrupt if we're talking. Pay attention to if my mouth is full.


I totally agree

Can I add

be inobtrusive but attentive

Check back shortly after you have served the food....and listen for addition possible needs

Present food in a logical order and timed to allow the person to finish one course with a breath of air before starting the next. BTW this isn't easy when juggling 4 tables and trying to understand the kitchens pace at that time. Also trying to turn your tables over.

Remember your repeat customers but treat all like they are long time ones

Try specials and make SUBTLE recommendations not just cost effective ones for the owner and please

KNOW THE MENU and most of the ingredients which go into the foods or be willing to ask

Don't ever sit with me...I didn't invite you to dinner...that procedure went over with a big THUMP in the industry


----------



## Uricanejack

As a customer or patron. I don't have any real way of telling which business has a fair wage practice or not. Tipping is just generally accepted as the way it is. For restaurants bars ect. The tourism industry in some cases wants to spread this model. 

The BVI apparently its normal to tip according to the posts refering to particular sailing schools. It was not normal to tip in the sailing schools I worked for. or took course with. 

The restaurant industry is funny. Particularly having worked in a Union company which had a bar and restaurant. The staff were all paid Union rate. With good benefits. One of the most sought after jobs was bar waiter. One of the highest paid positions. Why? full union rate plus tips. 
I expect most people would not have thought he or she was well paid. Due to most places being minimum wage. Quite unusual. Just illustrating where the norm is to tip, people tip anyway.

So what I wonder about the tipping norm. In sailing instruction. I looked at the posted rates on the sailing school sites posted which suggest tips of between 10 and 15 %. The course fee was about 1500 for the basic course. and up to 2500 for the 9 day course. assuming 4 students.
A couple would be expected to pay up to 500 dollars on top of the course fee. 

My point at the moment is. the course fee appears to be just as high as the sailing schools I used to work for who didn't expect tips. 
So I doubt its about starving instructors. 

What do these companies pay their instructors, how does it compare to other companies?


----------



## MikeOReilly

chef2sail said:


> Mike can you tell me what metric examples or where you found the information that" restaurants which have tried the no tip model have increased their meal costs no more than a typical tip+ meal price so the customer is not paying more"


It is a common theme in all the reporting I've read about those restaurants going the no-tip way. Here are pertinet quotes from the first three hits I turned up from a simple search:

More restaurants adopting no-tipping policy - CBS News:



> "The Brand 158 restaurant in Glendale, Calif., has adopted the no-tipping policy because owner Gabriel Frem said he wanted to discourage competition between his employees. And he isn't including a service charge or upping his prices to make up for it, either.
> 
> Frem's theory is that tips disrupt the working environment and leave workers unsure of their take-home pay from week to week. "We think that if we stabilize the lives of our employees, they can then focus on the customer," he told The Los Angeles Times."


More Restaurants Go the No-Tipping Route



> Non-tipping restaurants will increase prices to cover the extra wages, but establishments that have done their homework will strike the proper balance so that patrons are paying approximately the same overall amount as they would have while making sure the staff is sufficiently compensated.


What Happens When You Abolish Tipping



> A couple of years after opening the Linkery restaurant in San Diego, the team and I adopted a policy of adding to each dining-in check a service charge of 18 percent-a little less than our tip average had been. We also refused to accept any payment beyond that service charge.


I'll remind the thread here, my point is not to rail against the current practice in restaurants. That train has long left the station. I support efforts to get rid of tips here, but my actual point is that we should stop the expansion of this poor economic model. Sailing instructors should not become a tipping service.


----------



## chef2sail

MikeOReilly said:


> It is a common theme in all the reporting I've read about those restaurants going the no-tip way. Here are pertinet quotes from the first three hits I turned up from a simple search:
> 
> More restaurants adopting no-tipping policy - CBS News:
> 
> 
> More Restaurants Go the No-Tipping Route
> 
> 
> What Happens When You Abolish Tipping
> 
> 
> I'll remind the thread here, my point is not to rail against the current practice in restaurants. That train has long left the station. I support efforts to get rid of tips here, but my actual point is that we should stop the expansion of this poor economic model. Sailing instructors should not become a tipping service.


I totally agree with that


----------



## Arcb

I can not comment much on the restaurant industry, but this thread was originally about a bareboat charter skipper I think, not even necessarily a sailing instructor, but a skipper, which to my way of thinking is a transportation worker. There is an element of service required in the job, but it certainly isn't the only focus of the job.

The transportation industry in Canada and I believe the US has traditionally been heavily unionised, with benefits and the kind of good pay that a regular guy with no more than a high school diploma can easily expect to raise a family with. So my post is more about transportation workers than the restaurant industry and is a slight deviation from the original topic which was in the BVI, not main land Americas, but it appears a certain amount of thread drift is being tolerated. 

I read in a post somewhere that many employees in the food service industry prefer a lower wage and tips to a slightly higher wage without tips. This might be true of the food service industry, I'm not really sure. 

However, when I was about 26 I took a job as a porter on a ship. A porters job is service heavy, 12 hour days, 7 days a week. Job duties include dish washing, serving the officers their meals and cleaning the officers cabins, making their beds, cleaning their heads etc. No tips were expected and none were given, the wages were somewhere around $43000/year and this was quite a few years ago. Benefits were good. Pension was good, vacation time was phonemal- 28 weeks of payed vacation a year. As soon as a quarter masters position opened up, my seniority allowed me to move into that job seamlessly. I was with that outfit for 11 years and we did strike, we did picket, we defended our wages and benefits, and therefore, helped protect the wages and benefits of transportation workers across the country, we would not have been better off working for tips, nor would we have.

My wife, before my son was born, was a flight attendant. As you know, flight attendants serve you your drinks, your meals and clean up your mess after you, but you don't tip them. Their responsibilities (like a small boat skipper) go beyond service into the world of transportation safety and security. As a flight attendant my wife was unionised, with a strong union. The pay was good, the benefits were good. When she found out she was pregnant, she spoke to her union rep and she was given light duties for 9 months (no flying) and after her 12 months of maternity leave she still had her seniority in place, that's 21 months without flying she kept her seniority for. Yes, the customer pays for these benefits in their airfare, flying isn't cheap, but the alternative is walking and most people would rather pay to fly than walk if the distances are great.

In recent years I spent about 4 years working as a private contractor in the marine industry, I did a few different things with my time, but much of my work came from charter boats- weddings, booze cruises etc. During this time, even though I was a private contractor, I continued to pay dues to my union (technically it was a guild for ships officers). I did occasionally receive a tip in this business and I certainly appreciated it, but I wasn't paying my major bills with that money.

Which leads me to my question. In the above 3 examples, involving service related roles in the transportation industry, if we would have been better off working for lower wages + Tips, why was it never proposed by any of those 3 different unions in collective bargaining discussions?


----------



## chef2sail

MikeOReilly said:


> It is a common theme in all the reporting I've read about those restaurants going the no-tip way. Here are pertinet quotes from the first three hits I turned up from a simple search:
> 
> More restaurants adopting no-tipping policy - CBS News:
> 
> 
> More Restaurants Go the No-Tipping Route
> 
> 
> What Happens When You Abolish Tipping
> 
> 
> I'll remind the thread here, my point is not to rail against the current practice in restaurants. That train has long left the station. I support efforts to get rid of tips here, but my actual point is that we should stop the expansion of this poor economic model. Sailing instructors should not become a tipping service.


You gave three examples which really don't reflect the trend

I spend time reading many of the industry trade magazines as well as sot on a few industry boards relating. Doing as you say away with the tipping model will lead to inevitably higher restaurant prices this causing more to fail. That's why many who have tried this have gone back to the traditional model

I totally agree with you about expanding this to other non hospitality industries like sailing instructors.

In another vein,The ASA courses I have taken ( from 101-108) were learning experiences. Increased advanced course were more hands on. All offered individual instruction. I took them long ago to accelerate my learning curve and also to have accreditations so when I chartered I could receive discounts

I have owned a keelboat over 30 done years now and have been fortunate enough to have sailed a lot up and down the Atlantic Seaboard, Carribean , even a small abound in California and the SAN Juans. All of that have helped my skill set.

I was fortunate enough to have assisted on over 20 offshore deliveries over those 30 years where I really learned first hand.

There is No substitute for experience hands on. I however have no where near the experience on here as someone like John did and Dave does who captain boats for a living.

IMHO I would have learned more ( and still could) by crewing for them on their deliveries. Attaching yourself to actual situations day after day and garnering tips and philosophies were my greatest lessons. Going on others boats to see how they ran them greatly improved my experience.

I found my sailing school certifications and experience were just a surface and in the long run only worth the money in the discounts I could obtain for the future chartering. It's not like they were 6 pack or captains s courses .

In no way was I making light of your upcoming 106 certification Rick. I just In my personal opinion found these courses as cruises with some learning .

I have given gifts to course instructors. Paid for their dinners ashore. I would not even have thought of tipping them. No matter what the material said . That's just me. I am by no means cheap with gratuities . In a charter situation with a captain...that's totally different

Mike check this out

https://pos.toasttab.com/blog/the-tipping-point


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## tempest

Uricanejack said:


> So what I wonder about the tipping norm. In sailing instruction. I looked at the posted rates on the sailing school sites posted which suggest tips of between 10 and 15 %. The course fee was about 1500 for the basic course. and up to 2500 for the 9 day course. assuming 4 students.
> A couple would be expected to pay up to 500 dollars on top of the course fee.
> 
> My point at the moment is. the course fee appears to be just as high as the sailing schools I used to work for who didn't expect tips.
> So I doubt its about starving instructors.
> 
> What do these companies pay their instructors, how does it compare to other companies?


When you say a course fee of $1500, assuming 4 students for a basic course. Can I interpret that to mean $1500/4 = $375.00 per student for a 2 day course. a 10% tip per person would be $37.50 each. or less than $20.00/day. Per person Simply buying/bringing the instructor's lunch would be a nice "gesture". Whenever I hired a fishing guide it was always understood that lunch was our responsibility.

Basic sailing classes around here, NY/NJ area, Go for between $355.50 (NJ) and $590. ( in NYC) for a two day course.

When I started teaching part-time weekends around 2004, I was paid $155.00/day or $310.00 a weekend ( cash). In 2010 and 2011, when I taught last, the daily rate from one school was $120/day and another was $150.00 ( The new owner dropped the $5 weekend premium) and both schools started to send out 1099's, so I paid state tax, federal taxes, double SS tax etc. I suspect, though I can't say for certain, that the instructor rates haven't gone up; if they have it's negligible. Tips were not mentioned anywhere in the advertising. I didn't seek them, and they were rarely offered. Though they were often deserved! These schools scrape and scratch for every nickle. One school had rags for sails, the other's outboards would stall and refuse to start; on the Hudson River in a 4 knot current it could make getting home or dodging ferries an adventure ( I loved the challenge ;-) ) I recall having to tow a sister boat into the harbor twice because their engine failed.

I simply could no longer justify giving up valuable sailing time on my boat for what amounted to barely $90/day net income. I might view it differently if I lived closer. Or, if It were my only opportunity to sail. But I drove about 45 min. to one school and an hour to another. I think I can say pretty confidently that sailing instructors are not getting fat on the wages they're paid. And from what I read here and have heard from doing it, if the sailing schools started charging what they really needed to charge to pay a decent wage to the instructors and keep their boats in good shape many of them would close for lack of business.

I also know that instructors work for various reasons, money not always the 1st priority. Some do it because they don't own a boat and it's time on the water, they may get use of the boats when they are not in use. Others get club memberships in addition to their pay etc. etc. Some may do it to log time. Some just love it. Those various reasons tend to keep the wage depressed. There's not much one can do about that but find another gig.

I don't know what the tipping answer is. I know the answer for me was to do something else. Luckily, I have other skill sets that allow me to make extra money in retirement. I get 4 times the daily rate I did as an instructor, my meals get paid for, and sometimes I get gift cards as a thank you.

With regard to the " conflict of interest" reason for not tipping instructors. I've thought about that. The reality, and I'd be interested in what other instructors experiences are, is that a great number of the people who take the " basic" sailing class will probably never come back. The price points of some of these basic courses are set low enough that people are willing to spend $375. for a weekend to try something new, you show them a good time and you never see them again. They know at the end of two days if they should pass the practical. They were never surprised if I told them they had to come back. The advanced courses are a different animal.

On the Hudson, I've had students who admitted that they just wanted to sail around the statue of liberty and New York harbor etc. and take pictures and they really didn't care about the certifications. Apparently they felt it was a better deal than the Circle Line tours. I suspect it may be different on the Chesapeake, but I'd guess that there's some of that goes on in Florida and the Caribbean

Teaching sailing sounded like a good idea at the time I did it, I don't regret it, I enjoyed it and gained alot of useful experience, But I'd prefer at this point in my life not to have to work that hard, for those wages. It can be alot of fun, if you get a good class, but you can work your butt off in 90 degree temps with some. $90/day net, just doesn't cut it

To put it in perspective, since we drifted into foodservice, I know bartenders and servers that can easily pull down $500/ night in a decent restaurant with a good wine list. Servers always tip their bartenders and busboys too.


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## chef2sail

Arcb said:


> I can not comment much on the restaurant industry, but this thread was originally about a bareboat charter skipper I think, not even necessarily a sailing instructor, but a skipper, which to my way of thinking is a transportation worker. There is an element of service required in the job, but it certainly isn't the only focus of the job.
> 
> The transportation industry in Canada and I believe the US has traditionally been heavily unionised, with benefits and the kind of good pay that a regular guy with no more than a high school diploma can easily expect to raise a family with. So my post is more about transportation workers than the restaurant industry and is a slight deviation from the original topic which was in the BVI, not main land Americas, but it appears a certain amount of thread drift is being tolerated.
> 
> I read in a post somewhere that many employees in the food service industry prefer a lower wage and tips to a slightly higher wage without tips. This might be true of the food service industry, I'm not really sure.
> 
> However, when I was about 26 I took a job as a porter on a ship. A porters job is service heavy, 12 hour days, 7 days a week. Job duties include dish washing, serving the officers their meals and cleaning the officers cabins, making their beds, cleaning their heads etc. No tips were expected and none were given, the wages were somewhere around $43000/year and this was quite a few years ago. Benefits were good. Pension was good, vacation time was phonemal- 28 weeks of payed vacation a year. As soon as a quarter masters position opened up, my seniority allowed me to move into that job seamlessly. I was with that outfit for 11 years and we did strike, we did picket, we defended our wages and benefits, and therefore, helped protect the wages and benefits of transportation workers across the country, we would not have been better off working for tips, nor would we have.
> 
> My wife, before my son was born, was a flight attendant. As you know, flight attendants serve you your drinks, your meals and clean up your mess after you, but you don't tip them. Their responsibilities (like a small boat skipper) go beyond service into the world of transportation safety and security. As a flight attendant my wife was unionised, with a strong union. The pay was good, the benefits were good. When she found out she was pregnant, she spoke to her union rep and she was given light duties for 9 months (no flying) and after her 12 months of maternity leave she still had her seniority in place, that's 21 months without flying she kept her seniority for. Yes, the customer pays for these benefits in their airfare, flying isn't cheap, but the alternative is walking and most people would rather pay to fly than walk if the distances are great.
> 
> In recent years I spent about 4 years working as a private contractor in the marine industry, I did a few different things with my time, but much of my work came from charter boats- weddings, booze cruises etc. During this time, even though I was a private contractor, I continued to pay dues to my union (technically it was a guild for ships officers). I did occasionally receive a tip in this business and I certainly appreciated it, but I wasn't paying my major bills with that money.
> 
> Which leads me to my question. In the above 3 examples, involving service related roles in the transportation industry, if we would have been better off working for lower wages + Tips, why was it never proposed by any of those 3 different unions in collective bargaining discussions?


Unions present a whole different spin in the restaurant industry

In Atlantic City where I worked for 18 years and some of my current restaurants, all employees are paid wages at at least minimum wage levels. Some are designated non tipped and signs are prevelant in them that it is a non tipped position and all gratuities are pooled.

Only 7% of restaurant workers are unionized.


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## midwesterner

Yeah tipping is respect.


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## MikeOReilly

chef2sail said:


> You gave three examples which really don't reflect the trend
> 
> I spend time reading many of the industry trade magazines as well as sot on a few industry boards relating. Doing as you say away with the tipping model will lead to inevitably higher restaurant prices this causing more to fail. That's why many who have tried this have gone back to the traditional model
> 
> &#8230;
> Mike check this out
> 
> https://pos.toasttab.com/blog/the-tipping-point


Thanks for the reference Chef. Good read. Not the outcomes I would like to see, but as your experience shows, perhaps not surprising in the NA restaurant business. Other countries don't follow our model, so there is hope for the future. But I agree, this train with regard to restaurant service staff left the station a long time ago. It will take a long time to bring it back.

But I'm pleased that we agree on the undesirability of having this model expand into sailing instructors.


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## MikeOReilly

tempest said:


> And from what I read here and have heard from doing it, if the sailing schools started charging what they really needed to charge to pay a decent wage to the instructors and keep their boats in good shape many of them would close for lack of business.


Thanks for this tempest. Great to hear from actual instructors. Lots of good info, but I wanted to pick up on this statement above (not trying to criticize you in any way) b/c others have made similar comments. You're saying sailing school businesses would fail if they charged the price needed to pay all their costs. But if you believe in free markets, then isn't this the definition of a business that should fail?

If it doesn't fail, it must be being subsidized in some way - in this case on a declining capital base (boats not being maintained) AND on the financial backs of the instructors.


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## Uricanejack

Arcb said:


> I can not comment much on the restaurant industry, but this thread was originally about a bareboat charter skipper I think, not even necessarily a sailing instructor, but a skipper, which to my way of thinking is a transportation worker. There is an element of service required in the job, but it certainly isn't the only focus of the job.
> 
> The transportation industry in Canada and I believe the US has traditionally been heavily unionised, with benefits and the kind of good pay that a regular guy with no more than a high school diploma can easily expect to raise a family with. So my post is more about transportation workers than the restaurant industry and is a slight deviation from the original topic which was in the BVI, not main land Americas, but it appears a certain amount of thread drift is being tolerated.
> 
> I read in a post somewhere that many employees in the food service industry prefer a lower wage and tips to a slightly higher wage without tips. This might be true of the food service industry, I'm not really sure.
> 
> However, when I was about 26 I took a job as a porter on a ship. A porters job is service heavy, 12 hour days, 7 days a week. Job duties include dish washing, serving the officers their meals and cleaning the officers cabins, making their beds, cleaning their heads etc. No tips were expected and none were given, the wages were somewhere around $43000/year and this was quite a few years ago. Benefits were good. Pension was good, vacation time was phonemal- 28 weeks of payed vacation a year. As soon as a quarter masters position opened up, my seniority allowed me to move into that job seamlessly. I was with that outfit for 11 years and we did strike, we did picket, we defended our wages and benefits, and therefore, helped protect the wages and benefits of transportation workers across the country, we would not have been better off working for tips, nor would we have.
> 
> My wife, before my son was born, was a flight attendant. As you know, flight attendants serve you your drinks, your meals and clean up your mess after you, but you don't tip them. Their responsibilities (like a small boat skipper) go beyond service into the world of transportation safety and security. As a flight attendant my wife was unionised, with a strong union. The pay was good, the benefits were good. When she found out she was pregnant, she spoke to her union rep and she was given light duties for 9 months (no flying) and after her 12 months of maternity leave she still had her seniority in place, that's 21 months without flying she kept her seniority for. Yes, the customer pays for these benefits in their airfare, flying isn't cheap, but the alternative is walking and most people would rather pay to fly than walk if the distances are great.
> 
> In recent years I spent about 4 years working as a private contractor in the marine industry, I did a few different things with my time, but much of my work came from charter boats- weddings, booze cruises etc. During this time, even though I was a private contractor, I continued to pay dues to my union (technically it was a guild for ships officers). I did occasionally receive a tip in this business and I certainly appreciated it, but I wasn't paying my major bills with that money.
> 
> Which leads me to my question. In the above 3 examples, involving service related roles in the transportation industry, if we would have been better off working for lower wages + Tips, why was it never proposed by any of those 3 different unions in collective bargaining discussions?


CMSG.? once upon a time long ago for me.

I can't really compare sailing instruction to the transportation industry. Maybe I should but I don't. It compares more to the leisure or tourism industries. 
It worked for me when I was an instructor. The problem being it was never a full time gig. It was a seasonal weekend gig. I enjoyed and so I worked for a much lower rate than the transportation industry would provide. 
To make a decent income transportation. 
I came to the conclusion sailing was for pleasure only. The advantage of being an instructor was sailing nice boats I could not otherwise have afforded to sail at the time. I also got to sail to some interesting locations.
Other nice aspects were meeting interesting people. And discount charter rates. and a discounted rate for additional courses.
To put it very simply being a sailing instructor barely covered the cost of going sailing.

I spent some time in the charter booze cruise game. It paid a bit better but ultimately I found it to be more trouble than worth. I enjoyed it but there was better ways to earn a living. again it was to unsteady. Something I enjoyed at times. The boat I and operator I worked for moved on and so did I. There are still quite a few around. I know a few people who work part time.

In both cases it was not so much it was low paid as just not enough hours to go round.

Other aspects of the industry, tour and guiding. whale watching. some are good jobs. the resource based industries which a lot of people used to work in are disappearing. Tourism keeps some small places going.


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## MikeOReilly

I was just Youtube surfing when I hit on this little blather vid. It's a German commenting on weird things in the USA. Tipping is mentioned here 3:40






or this one






or how about this little ditty:






(OK, I'll stop now)


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## TakeFive

chef2sail said:


> Mike check this out
> 
> https://pos.toasttab.com/blog/the-tipping-point


Dave, thanks for the link. Just goes to show you that the end result is not always what is expected.

But....I have to wonder about servers complaining about their incomes going down. You have to think that the restauranteurs calculated all that out to prevent that from happening. I have to wonder if the likelihood that tips are very much under-reported to the IRS has anything to do with wait staff turnover (presumably to move to restaurants that use the tipping model). Moving the former tip money into hourly wages that are reported off a W2 all of a sudden makes it a lot harder to skim off the top.


----------



## tempest

MikeOReilly said:


> Thanks for this tempest. Great to hear from actual instructors. Lots of good info, but I wanted to pick up on this statement above (not trying to criticize you in any way) b/c others have made similar comments. You're saying sailing school businesses would fail if they charged the price needed to pay all their costs. But if you believe in free markets, then isn't this the definition of a business that should fail?
> 
> If it doesn't fail, it must be being subsidized in some way - in this case on a declining capital base (boats not being maintained) AND on the financial backs of the instructors.


Mike, There are a variety of business models that help some survive better than others. One school I'm familiar with, sells club memberships to their boats. The boats are used for instruction in the mornings until 2 p.m , and then are available to club members in the afternoons. The only course taught is basic sailing, and it's offered a la carte. meaning you can take the course, and decide not to pay extra for the exam and certification if after 2 days you decide that sailing is not for you. Thus, you get a lot of tire kickers. I think the club memberships are where the profits lay, and the classes are a feeder to the club. But, I didn't do the books, so that's a guess. I could be wrong, but I believe some of the instructors teach, and get reimbursed in a club membership, and if they teach beyond the cost of the membership they probably start earning $. I have a boat, so club membership is not an inducement. Advanced classes are contracted out. A number of schools started to do sunset sails, fun sails etc. If the boat is sitting it isn't earning. But then they need a captain who will work for 3 or 4 hours and $50 or $75 dollars to do those. Those folks need to live nearer to the boats to make it worth their time.

To your point, I believe many were on the brink of failure and started to get creative. Eherlihy's school is making a major change now, if you read his post.

Still, even if a Sailing School raised their rates, I'm guessing that only a small portion of that would trickle down to the instructor. There are simply too many instructors who seem willing to work at the low rates, for the reasons I've stated. The pay rate hasn't seen an increase in 12 years. This economy has hurt a lot of businesses, between the economy and hurricane sandy the boating business took a beating around here.

In this world of Uber, young people do not seem to be into ownership like I was. They may be on to something!

At one time my Marina's berths held more than 50% sailboats. Today it's probably 10%. and jet skis seem to be everywhere.


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## chef2sail

TakeFive said:


> Dave, thanks for the link. Just goes to show you that the end result is not always what is expected.
> 
> But....I have to wonder about servers complaining about their incomes going down. You have to think that the restauranteurs calculated all that out to prevent that from happening. I have to wonder if the likelihood that tips are very much under-reported to the IRS has anything to do with wait staff turnover (presumably to move to restaurants that use the tipping model). Moving the former tip money into hourly wages that are reported off a W2 all of a sudden makes it a lot harder to skim off the top.


Yes, that part of it I think

Also servers can be the most transient part of a restaurant. In some it is a job to achieve income for school, etc. A good server though can make well over $50,000 a year in even an egg joint.

Like I said it's not as easy as most people think. They get treated pretty poorly by the general public sometimes. They have to handle many varying requests and time the kitchen as well as the customer. Look at a customer sideways they get reported.

When I moved 14 years ago from the kitchen ( I was the Ececutive Chef of a large Casino ) to begin my career anew in the Front of the House I went from being an icon and respected to a piece of crap people would yell at or complain to. It took me a while to adjust and learn to handle the public in a service oriented restaurant . A server is by no means as simple as people make it look.

Like others hear have said I often see how potential managers handle cashiers and servers before I ever hire them. People deserve common courtesy and respect no matter what position they do for a living. I have to handle far more different situations in Volvo get customers than I ever imagined I would have to.

I think most servers would rather be tipped because for one they feel they can make more if they provide service above and beyond. Many here have expressed that they tip well for that reason. Another reason is available cash every night rather than wait two weeks for a payroll check. I think that the pay taxes on what they MUST declare is a third reason but somewhat minor.

A good service staff and the level of service is the criteria moving restaurants from 3-4 stars or 4-5 in Michelin/ Zagat and most serveys. A good service staff can make a restaurant, retain customers, and make the restaurant successful more than any marketing. Almost all restaurant owners managers know this that why for the most part they would not purposely underpay them. They are usually bonuses for upwelling, desserts, drinks, promotions, specials for services who perform to encourage this. Most good successful restaurants have have extensive training for service.

This is why some restaurants survive those enormous odds of failure. Proprietors who ignore the importance ( including the pay and benefits) of their service staffs are doomed to fail.,

Food is very important yes, but hospitality as the article pointed out, and most know is the business and key. It varies from restaurant to type of restaurant

Dave pointed out he want good service, attentive but from what I gather not overly familiar. However in a place he frequents I beleive he would like recognition as a frequent customer there and the friendliness while being professional that brings. Again it's the hospitality industry that automation cannot duplicate.

Beleive or not some use the service route to get promoted to management also. Most FOH managers have come from a server/ bartender position.

Most servers recognize they have control somewhat of the amount of tips they receive. Most beleive they will be rewarded by the customer most of the time in that recognition. Taking that out of the equation by having a higher wage thus increasing the menu prices backfired over the long run.

I really don't choose to completely look at this system as wrong in MY industry and something to fix, and if we could start over a different method would be chosen.

Just an aside in some of the union places I have worked and continue to it is hard to motivate the service staff, as their is no reward for superior service financially. They all make the same whether the just do the basics or go above and beyond.


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## Uricanejack

I have found Chef's description of the industry interesting. 

I tend to frequent a small circuit of local restaurants. I am probably not known as a big tipper. I don't drink so my bill tends to be small and I expect the profit margin slight. 10 or 20 % of not a lot is not a lot.
My wife gets annoyed at me a lot of our local places don't even bring me a menu. My coffee arrives with my server. Along with a comment they just put an extra pot on. Most of the staff know us. Chat to them when I see them in town. 
I kind of like being recognised. Of course in a small town locals keep you going. 

Instructing is very different.


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## tempest

Many years ago, on Cape Cod, Wellfleet. I went out to eat in one of the best restaurants in town. There were at least 16 of us. The waiter was the best that I have ever seen. He took 16 drink orders without taking a note and delivered every drink to the right person. He did the same with appetizers, dinners and desserts. Not a note pad on his person. Not a mistake. We asked him to keep our glasses full, and we never waited for a drink. He had a great sense of humor and was a Pro! The only time he had help was to bring out the food, but he set every plate himself. while someone followed him. I can't remember what the bill was, but we probably left him a 40 to 50% tip. One of the girlfriends thought the tip was excessive and went to remove money from the table, that didn't go over well! (especially since she hadn't contributed.) . 

Professionals like that will never want to go to a flat rate pay scale. A good waiter can make more than most managers. Flat rates will likely lead to flat service. But, I'm an old timer, I could be wrong.


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## Uricanejack

Fair enough if you are talking about a good waiter. I think Mike posted about the typical tippers. Certainly when out with the lads our waiter or waitress would do well. I addition to high bills, lots of drinks, we would all put down much more than required and just call it the tip. 

Which is why I don't see it equating to sailing instruction. I didn't instruct for tips and I believe I gave very good instruction. Is just giving good instruction good service. 
I was not a waiter, I did not fetch drinks for my students or cook their meals or clean up after them. If this is what is expected. As good service when on a sailing instruction cruise and learn. Then I didn't give it and perhaps never got a tip because I didn't deserve one. 
If I was expected to serve the students as well as instruct the students I would not have enjoyed the experience and quite instructing pretty early on. 

I could see a with a Charter crew and skipper. Service would be expected. Good service expected as part of the experience and so a Tip would be appropriate. 
At one time I crewed on Booze cruise trips. The bar and wait staff were tipped. As you might expect. As deck crew we were not and tips were not shared with us. But I didn't wait on the passengers. 
Under normal circumstance. 
On a Charter who would you tip. the cook and stewards. they serve you but why the skipper?
Which brings me back to the original question about the Bareboat Skipper.

All the justification from the restaurant industry just doesn't convert to a similar service to be rewarded with a tip.


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## Jammer Six

Uricanejack said:


> As a customer or patron. I don't have any real way of telling which business has a fair wage practice or not.


That is exactly why what a waitress or cook is paid isn't up to a patron.

I don't believe for a second that any of you ask about pay scales and then walk out if you think it's too low.

I think you go where you want to go, and you tip or you don't, based on whatever tea-leaf-gazing selection process and criteria you used to decide what you want for dinner.


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## chef2sail

I promised another example

One of the best positions in F&B in the casinos which were unionized was a non-tipped beverage server in a buffet with an annual budget of 58 million. (No lie)

Extremely busy place sat 890. $11.95 till 4PM the $20 for seafood.
Each " server" was designated a buffet beverage server made union wage of $11/HR plus benefits. They didn't get food, just beverages and cleared the table. Again non tipped. Average section had 50 seats. 

Employees worked 6 hour shifts. Average turn of tables 1 hour. Average age of beverage servers 70. Even though not tipped people felt they should leave something so the left $1. Average tips $250 in ones per night. Employees went to bank with stacks of $1 bills every 5 days.

Declared wages $22,000 per year. Tips untaxed $62,000 year. Average $51 per hour plus benefits. 
Cocktail servers averaged over $100/000 per year. 

BTW the majority of buffet patrons were comps and bus comps so the casino wrote their cost off as a cost for doing business in their taxes. 

Most of you know my former boss was Donald J Trump. My casino went bankrupt 3 times in 12 years to avoid paying creditors. It's now closed.


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## chef2sail

Uricanejack said:


> Fair enough if you are talking about a good waiter. I think Mike posted about the typical tippers. Certainly when out with the lads our waiter or waitress would do well. I addition to high bills, lots of drinks, we would all put down much more than required and just call it the tip.
> 
> Which is why I don't see it equating to sailing instruction. I didn't instruct for tips and I believe I gave very good instruction. Is just giving good instruction good service.
> I was not a waiter, I did not fetch drinks for my students or cook their meals or clean up after them. If this is what is expected. As good service when on a sailing instruction cruise and learn. Then I didn't give it and perhaps never got a tip because I didn't deserve one.
> If I was expected to serve the students as well as instruct the students I would not have enjoyed the experience and quite instructing pretty early on.
> 
> I could see a with a Charter crew and skipper. Service would be expected. Good service expected as part of the experience and so a Tip would be appropriate.
> At one time I crewed on Booze cruise trips. The bar and wait staff were tipped. As you might expect. As deck crew we were not and tips were not shared with us. But I didn't wait on the passengers.
> Under normal circumstance.
> On a Charter who would you tip. the cook and stewards. they serve you but why the skipper?
> Which brings me back to the original question about the Bareboat Skipper.
> 
> All the justification from the restaurant industry just doesn't convert to a similar service to be rewarded with a tip.


This was exactly the reason I termed Ricks trip a charter. Wasn't meant to demean the instruction or certification. It was meant to point out the similarity it was to a crewed/ captain charted who I would tip. 
I would not tip an instructor, however I'd buy his shore meal.


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## ianjoub

tempest said:


> if the sailing schools started charging what they really needed to charge to pay a decent wage to the instructors and keep their boats in good shape many of them would close for lack of business.


Perhaps the problem is that there are too many sailing schools. This sounds like lawn care 'businesses' where I live. Every guy with a pickup truck and lawn mower thinks he is a lawn care service. Here, one can have his lawn done for $20/cut. No one tips these guys. They provide a service. Where do you draw the line?


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## SVAuspicious

There is an important element that hasn't been addressed in this discussion of what should or should not be.

Change is hard.

We are not talking about starting a culture from scratch. We're talking about (at least those who think tipping should be different) changing an existing culture.

The article @chef2sail linked gets to the edge of the issue. The examples cited an important portion of both customers and staff did not like the change. They didn't go on to discuss why which is just as well because they'd be guessing. *grin* Figuring out why is a lot of work.

In my previous life I was a turnaround program manager. More often than not fixing technical elements was not nearly as much work as changing a culture (usually a disfunctional one).

I can't even imagine the degree of coordination and education and the shear number of believers it would take to change the tipping culture in the Americas, any more than fundamentally changing the different culture in the EU.

So it is what it is. You can rail against. You can say something else would be better. Actually making change is a huge amount of work.

The reality is that the customer-facing skippers on bareboats, crewed charters, and liveaboard instructors in the Caribbean work in a culture that includes tipping. There are exceptions but that is the culture.

Changing culture is hard.


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## tempest

ianjoub said:


> Perhaps the problem is that there are too many sailing schools. This sounds like lawn care 'businesses' where I live. Every guy with a pickup truck and lawn mower thinks he is a lawn care service. Here, one can have his lawn done for $20/cut. No one tips these guys. They provide a service. Where do you draw the line?


That's a possibility. There are at least 3 schools on the lower Hudson operating in New York Harbor.

Weekdays, in season, certainly don't fill all the boats. Weekends might. There are probably a number of factors. Too many schools, too many instructors, not enough clients, a price point that seems to be sensitive.


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## tempest

Uricanejack said:


> Which is why I don't see it equating to sailing instruction. I didn't instruct for tips and I believe I gave very good instruction
> 
> All the justification from the restaurant industry just doesn't convert to a similar service to be rewarded with a tip.


I don't believe that I was trying to justify tipping. You asked what instructors got paid. I believe I provided that information for my local area. Since the thread had already drifted in to the foodservice world, I used it to simply put the wages in comparison.

You also confirmed in a previous post, what I have pointed out. When you taught, your motivation was not primarily income. You taught to sail on nicer boats than you would normally get to sail on, for discounts, and to sail in nice places, and that's great! Some of those incentives, and others, draw instructors willing to work for wages as you stated, that barely covered the cost of going sailing. Faced with the reality of that, I got out of the teaching business, the inducements that worked for you didn't work for me.
No worries. I had fun when I did it, and now I do something else.


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## MikeOReilly

SVAuspicious said:


> There is an important element that hasn't been addressed in this discussion of what should or should not be.
> 
> Change is hard.
> ...
> I can't even imagine the degree of coordination and education and the shear number of believers it would take to change the tipping culture in the Americas, any more than fundamentally changing the different culture in the EU.
> 
> So it is what it is. You can rail against. You can say something else would be better. Actually making change is a huge amount of work.


Agreed. I've said so; this train left the station a long time ago. My comments are about halting the expansion of this economic system. We've been drawn into this restaurant discussion b/c it is the most established tipping system.

I do think things can change. It ain't easy, and it will take a long time, and I applaud and support those making an effort in this area. But it's not my hill to die on.



SVAuspicious said:


> The reality is that the customer-facing skippers on bareboats, crewed charters, and liveaboard instructors in the Caribbean work in a culture that includes tipping. There are exceptions but that is the culture.


Well, as examples provided here show, it ain't the whole reality. And just like restaurant tipping is largely an American(& Canadian) thing, I bet tipping in the boating industry is likewise. It would be an interesting comparison to look at American-run operations vs European or Canadian.

Like I say, my wife used a Canadian company to do her Caribbean courses. No tipping. Posters have mentioned other companies which don't pressure customers into tipping. Is this mostly an American thing?


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## MikeOReilly

ianjoub said:


> Perhaps the problem is that there are too many sailing schools.


Kinda my point about suggesting some of these sailing schools and charter businesses should die. If they are only viable by paying their workers poorly, and by letting their capital stock run down (through poor maintenance), then surely the free market says they should fail.

Business operate by maximizing revenue and minimizing expenses. A tipping culture is one way for a business to offload the cost of workers - to create an "externality" in biz-lingo. For those who believe in free markets, externalities are distortions that should be discouraged.


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## Minnewaska

Although, in all these industries, there is obviously a supply of workers willing to take these wages. In part, this is because there are many hobbyists in the sailing, scuba diving and ski instructor business (all of which get tips) that are willing to work for less. There is the 20 something ski-bum that just wants to ski and the semi-retired sailing instructor that has a retirement income and just wants to sail.

I'm not arguing it should be this way, only that it isn't entirely a greedy business owner's doing. If I don't need the money, but I want the job and will do it for less than you, why wouldn't the business owner hire me.

In fact, I would argue, if you take the tip risk away from the employee, they should settle for a lower overall compensation. IOW, a guaranteed paycheck vs. the risk of not performing well enough or being stiffed. Risk v reward. I wonder how many employees would agree. The wait staff at the restaurant I was at last night, average $40 per hour (all in), according to the owner. Take away the risk and maybe that should be $35.


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## MikeOReilly

Minnewaska said:


> Although, in all these industries, there is obviously a supply of workers willing to take these wages. In part, this is because there are many hobbyists in the sailing, scuba diving and ski instructor business (all of which get tips) that are willing to work for less. &#8230; I'm not arguing it should be this way, only that it isn't entirely a greedy business owner's doing. If I don't need the money, but I want the job and will do it for less than you, why wouldn't the business owner hire me.
> 
> In fact, I would argue, if you take the tip risk away from the employee, they should settle for a lower overall compensation. IOW, a guaranteed paycheck vs. the risk of not performing well enough or being stiffed. Risk v reward. I wonder how many employees would agree. The wait staff at the restaurant I was at last night, average $40 per hour (all in), according to the owner. Take away the risk and maybe that should be $35.


I agree with all your points Minn. Businesses are in the business of making profit. We do this my maximizing revenue and minimizing expenses. Worker are a cost to be minimized, which is exactly what a business must do if they are to succeed in a competitive market. So I don't blame businesses that use a tipping model to externalize the cost of their workers; it is the system they operate in. This is why we need to change the system by enhancing labour standards and strengthening workers' organizations.

According to a 2014 report from the USA National Economic Council, _servers are nearly three times as likely as other workers to experience poverty_. Another study from the Economic Policy Institute found that tipped workers and their families _often depend on welfare programs to survive - and they do so at significantly higher rates than non-tipped workers_. The Wall Street Journal recently reported that nearly 15% of America's 2.4 million wait staff live in poverty, compared to 7% of all workers.

Added to this the racial aspect of tipping in the USA (whites make more than blacks), and it all adds up to an economic model that no one should want to expand.

On the issue of service quality and employee retention, a recent study from Cornell University's Michael Lynn (he keeps coming up in the research literature) finds: 
Does Tipping Help to Attract and Retain Better Service Workers?


> "A survey of several hundred restaurant servers in the United States found that servers' attitudes toward working for tips and average tip sizes were weakly related (at best) to their service-orientation, intended job-tenure, and occupational-tenure. These findings suggest that tipping does not substantially help to attract and retain more service- oriented workers.


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## tempest

MikeOReilly said:


> I agree with all your points Minn. Businesses are in the business of making profit. We do this my maximizing revenue and minimizing expenses. Worker are a cost to be minimized, which is exactly what a business must do if they are to succeed in a competitive market. So I don't blame businesses that use a tipping model to externalize the cost of their workers; it is the system they operate in. This is why we need to change the system by enhancing labour standards and strengthening workers' organizations.
> 
> According to a 2014 report from the USA National Economic Council, _servers are nearly three times as likely as other workers to experience poverty_. Another study from the Economic Policy Institute found that tipped workers and their families _often depend on welfare programs to survive - and they do so at significantly higher rates than non-tipped workers_. The Wall Street Journal recently reported that nearly 15% of America's 2.4 million wait staff live in poverty, compared to 7% of all workers.
> 
> Added to this the racial aspect of tipping in the USA (whites make more than blacks), and it all adds up to an economic model that no one should want to expand.
> 
> On the issue of service quality and employee retention, a recent study from Cornell University's Michael Lynn (he keeps coming up in the research literature) finds:
> Does Tipping Help to Attract and Retain Better Service Workers?


Mike, These reports don't advocate the elimination of tipping. The economic council report advocates raising the base minimum wage for tipped employees. ( particularly women, which was it's focus) Tips would remain, if I read it correctly.

The Cornell report ( paper). Places tipping up against an 18% standard service charge. It wasn't attractive to everyone. But, this would be my question, and I don't know the answer. In an 18% service charge model does/would all of that flow to the server? Many restaurants already add this 18% "required" service charge to the tab for parties over a certain size, and the server gets it all. I know, I've tipped beyond that. if the service was outstanding.

In an across the board industry change, I suspect there would be a temptation for the business to re-claim a portion of that, under some guise of administrative costs. Who sets the mandatory service rate? The state, the fed, the owner?

Interesting topic. Tipping is pretty embedded in many service occupations. Though, many people may not follow custom

Cab drivers, baggage handlers, doormen, The cruise ship industry. How about the launch operator. 
The pizza delivery, the coat check, the guys who wipe your car at the car wash.

I've been in service related industries most of my life. So, I admit that I probably look at it much differently than many people do. I'm not wealthy, and most of the time, I'm a do-it-yourself guy. So, when someone provides me with a personal service, I'm appreciative. ( it means I didn't have to do it myself) I also know how hard many of them work, and how little they make sometimes. We can say thank-you with a smile or a card, and I do, But, I also feel the best way for me to show my appreciation directly to the individual for a job-well-done is through a tip. I get your argument, that you prefer that employers pay them the proper wage to begin with and eliminate the need to tip. Consider this though if you will. People in the service industry often seek recognition or positive reinforcement, call it what you will. Good employers know how to provide that, but many do not. The easiest way for a service provider to get feedback, is directly from the person they just served. But that's just me.


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## chef2sail

MikeOReilly said:


> I agree with all your points Minn. Businesses are in the business of making profit. We do this my maximizing revenue and minimizing expenses. Worker are a cost to be minimized, which is exactly what a business must do if they are to succeed in a competitive market. So I don't blame businesses that use a tipping model to externalize the cost of their workers; it is the system they operate in. This is why we need to change the system by enhancing labour standards and strengthening workers' organizations.
> 
> According to a 2014 report from the USA National Economic Council, _servers are nearly three times as likely as other workers to experience poverty_. Another study from the Economic Policy Institute found that tipped workers and their families _often depend on welfare programs to survive - and they do so at significantly higher rates than non-tipped workers_. The Wall Street Journal recently reported that nearly 15% of America's 2.4 million wait staff live in poverty, compared to 7% of all workers.
> 
> Added to this the racial aspect of tipping in the USA (whites make more than blacks), and it all adds up to an economic model that no one should want to expand.
> 
> On the issue of service quality and employee retention, a recent study from Cornell University's Michael Lynn (he keeps coming up in the research literature) finds:
> Does Tipping Help to Attract and Retain Better Service Workers?


Mike ,

I know mr Lynne. Cornell university has one of the foremost hospitality programs in the US. However my entire read of his paper does not drawn the conclusions that tipping has no effect on employee morale or retention.

Here is another we'll know industry report fro a very accredited hospitality program in Africa.

My experience in the industry says very similar. If tips were removed as a form of compensation it would not be acceptable too the great majority of service staff. That pooled gratuity or increased wages in leiu of gratuity is not what they want

http://www.ajhtl.com/uploads/7/1/6/3/7163688/article_56_vol_3_1_2014.pdf


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## MikeOReilly

tempest said:


> Mike, These reports don't advocate the elimination of tipping. The economic council report advocates raising the base minimum wage for tipped employees. ( particularly women, which was it's focus) Tips would remain, if I read it correctly.


Yes &#8230; I just pointed to those studies since they have something to say about the damaging effects of the tipping culture.



tempest said:


> Interesting topic. Tipping is pretty embedded in many service occupations. Though, many people may not follow custom


You should add, "in the USA and Canada." It's not nearly as embedded in other places around the world, and the USA economy is the king of tipping. Not a surprise really...



tempest said:


> I've been in service related industries most of my life. So, I admit that I probably look at it much differently than many people do. I'm not wealthy, and most of the time, I'm a do-it-yourself guy. So, when someone provides me with a personal service, I'm appreciative. ( it means I didn't have to do it myself) I also know how hard many of them work, and how little they make sometimes. We can say thank-you with a smile or a card, and I do, But, I also feel the best way for me to show my appreciation directly to the individual for a job-well-done is through a tip. I get your argument, that you prefer that employers pay them the proper wage to begin with and eliminate the need to tip. Consider this though if you will. People in the service industry often seek recognition or positive reinforcement, call it what you will. Good employers know how to provide that, but many do not. The easiest way for a service provider to get feedback, is directly from the person they just served. But that's just me.


I've spent way too much time reading research papers on the topic (damn you SN!!!). It's a fascinating topic. It intermingles hard economics with psychology and sociology. Like most things we do, it's damn complicated. There is the goodwill of the tipper (which is very real), the needs of the tippee (is that a word?), the goals of the business, and the general social impacts on all sides. It's damn complicated. There is a current system which benefits some and harms others. It is an entrenched system which will be very hard to change.

I really have no grand wisdom to offer in the food service industry here in NA. I simply believe, as someone who has been on the forefront of the fight for a workforce that has many similarities to the sailing school captain, that a tipping model is not beneficial to workers. I really don't know how deeply it has spread into this world (the first I heard of it was here on SN), but I think it should be resisted.


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## MikeOReilly

chef2sail said:


> I know mr Lynne. Cornell university has one of the foremost hospitality programs in the US. However my entire read of his paper does not drawn the conclusions that tipping has no effect on employee morale or retention.


I'm just quote his conclusions. He concludes (not I) there is a "weak relationship (at best)" between "servers' attitudes toward working for tips and average tip sizes" and "their service-orientation, intended job-tenure, and occupational-tenure." I don't think he specifically address morale in this paper.



chef2sail said:


> My experience in the industry says very similar. If tips were removed as a form of compensation it would not be acceptable too the great majority of service staff. That pooled gratuity or increased wages in leiu of gratuity is not what they want


http://www.ajhtl.com/uploads/7/1/6/3/7163688/article_56_vol_3_1_2014.pdf[/QUOTE]

Yes &#8230; another interesting paper. I note however, the abstract and conclusions state: 


> "The implication of the study is a service charge system to *share* tips is required to motivate all employees since the guest experience is a product of collective effort from almost all the employees in a hotel establishment."


You may be right that most service staff would not want to share tips via pooled gratuity, but even this paper suggests it should be done.

The reading I've done (which I'm not suggesting bring me anywhere near your level of understanding Chef), suggests to me that, as in all industries, there is no one right answer for everyone. It's clear some front of house staff do great with a tipping system, but the overall stats suggest it is a negative for most. For those working in high end operations, it's great. Most workers don't work in those places, so don't see those benefits. And everywhere there seems to be a problem with back of the house staffing compensation.

Again, I'm not engaged in the fight to remove tipping from the restaurant business. I would like to see it phased out. I think it would be best for the most, but given the history, it will be a difficult and complicated task.

I simply think we should not support the expansion of this economic model beyond where it already exists. Sailing instructors should not be compensated this way. Pay them a fair wage for the work they do.


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## ianjoub

MikeOReilly said:


> According to a 2014 report from the USA National Economic Council, _servers are nearly three times as likely as other workers to experience poverty_. Another study from the Economic Policy Institute found that tipped workers and their families _often depend on welfare programs to survive - and they do so at significantly higher rates than non-tipped workers_. The Wall Street Journal recently reported that nearly 15% of America's 2.4 million wait staff live in poverty, compared to 7% of all workers.


In my experience (working as a bartender for 8 years before, during, and after college): The tipped workers on welfare are single mothers who underreport their tips to qualify. IE: A bunch of useless welfare whores. Maybe it is just where I lived and worked, but my assessment is based on a 95+% observation.


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## ianjoub

tempest said:


> Consider this though if you will. People in the service industry often seek recognition or positive reinforcement, call it what you will. Good employers know how to provide that, but many do not. The easiest way for a service provider to get feedback, is directly from the person they just served. But that's just me.


I have found, as an employer, that more money doesn't do squat compare to telling someone 'good job' on a regular basis and having them believe it.


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## ianjoub

I will add, that as a bartender, I saw way too many 'employees' who were willing to steal from their employer in hopes of getting a cut back from the customer in the form of a tip.

I knew and understood, as a bartender, that we were selling alcohol (by the ounce). I would never pour heavy shots for people in hopes of a better tip. That would be stealing. In fact, I made it a point of pride to put as much money in the cash register every evening as I could! I knew I could count on 10% - 15% of the till. The last few bartending jobs I had, the business owners came and found me and asked me to work for them. I made very good money (as did they).


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## chef2sail

ianjoub said:


> In my experience (working as a bartender for 8 years before, during, and after college): The tipped workers on welfare are single mothers who underreport their tips to qualify. IE: A bunch of useless welfare whores. Maybe it is just where I lived and worked, but my assessment is based on a 95+% observation.


Theres a basic problem with taking the small sample you were exposed to and trying to cast it as a general trend for the industry.

You cannot expect to see more than what you are exposed to , but hopefully insight and a little research into this I believe would show most tipped employees don't fall into this category


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## chef2sail

MikeOReilly said:


> I'm just quote his conclusions. He concludes (not I) there is a "weak relationship (at best)" between "servers' attitudes toward working for tips and average tip sizes" and "their service-orientation, intended job-tenure, and occupational-tenure." I don't think he specifically address morale in this paper.
> 
> http://www.ajhtl.com/uploads/7/1/6/3/7163688/article_56_vol_3_1_2014.pdf


Yes &#8230; another interesting paper. I note however, the abstract and conclusions state:

You may be right that most service staff would not want to share tips via pooled gratuity, but even this paper suggests it should be done.

The reading I've done (which I'm not suggesting bring me anywhere near your level of understanding Chef), suggests to me that, as in all industries, there is no one right answer for everyone. It's clear some front of house staff do great with a tipping system, but the overall stats suggest it is a negative for most. For those working in high end operations, it's great. Most workers don't work in those places, so don't see those benefits. And everywhere there seems to be a problem with back of the house staffing compensation.

Again, I'm not engaged in the fight to remove tipping from the restaurant business. I would like to see it phased out. I think it would be best for the most, but given the history, it will be a difficult and complicated task.

I simply think we should not support the expansion of this economic model beyond where it already exists. Sailing instructors should not be compensated this way. Pay them a fair wage for the work they do.[/QUOTE]

I agree with your thoughts about expanding the model to sailing instructors. I have no issues with the current model for the food and beverage industry.


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## TakeFive

MikeOReilly said:


> ...This is why we need to change the system by enhancing labour standards and strengthening workers' organizations...


There used to be strong labor organizations in this country. They were called unions. Remember them? Teachers unions are the only strong ones left, soon to be dismantled by DeVos and her friends in the unregulated expansion of charter schools nationwide. It's the last major hurdle to total annihilation of labor unions, and the new regime has it in its targets.

I've spent my entire career on the "management" side of the table, and have never been a big supporter of unions. As a school board president, I sit on the other side of the table from those guys. But I have always worked to find win-win opportunities. Teachers work very hard and don't make a lot of money, but they would make a lot less without unions. Given my background, many might think I would cheer the annihilation of labor unions. I don't, because I see every day how workers' rights have suffered, and concentration of wealth has funneled virtually all the gains from economic growth over the last 35+ years into the top 1%.

If you're interested in seeing strengthened workers' organizations in the US, you are going to see things to get much worse before they start to approach your definition of getting better.


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## Uricanejack

I have sat on both sides of the table most of my life. Though not always. Much of the time I never gave it much thought. The best company I worked for. was Union. I never even saw an actual contract. My contract was a handshake with the guy who ran it. From him it was good enough he treated us fair and square. I trusted him personally. 
Unfortunately I think you are right. The pendulum has swung to far to the right and unions have lost to much power and political influence not just in the USA.
I think you are right things will have to get much worse before people wake up and realise what's happening.
Most of us are quite happy thinking I am all right Jack. Until we are not. Then its to late.

Not that it has much to do with sailing.
Though where I live a lot of good old jobs have disappeared to be replaced by modern seasonal tourism based jobs. They tend to be low paid and part time.

Sailing in general. The professional side of it. As in being paid to go sailing. Is a lifestyle. Appeals to young(When I did it). Or older retired, semi retired, Who are willing to work for the chance to sail rather than looking for a way to make a living. Instruction was much the same in other activities I took part in. I never really got into deliveries. Again to many people willing to do it for the chance to sail. 
It would appear Skippers are paid. but crews are usually paid little more than expenses and sometimes not even expenses. 

I must say I did enjoy it.


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## MikeOReilly

TakeFive said:


> There used to be strong labor organizations in this country. They were called unions. Remember them? &#8230; If you're interested in seeing strengthened workers' organizations in the US, you are going to see things to get much worse before they start to approach your definition of getting better.


It will come as no surprise that I agree. Unions in the US have been mostly decimated by 30 years of neoliberal economic policies that have seen virtually all economic advances going to the top. GDP gains used to float all boats. You really could get ahead if you worked hard and played fair.

When unions were strong they ensured workers got their fair share of the massive gains in the economy. In around the mid-70s wage gains for the vast majority were decoupled from the growing economy, with all gains going to top earners and large corporations. The expansion of precarious workers, and the growth of the tipping economy, are all shades of this macro trend.


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## Jammer Six

Unions have a history of concentrating on the wrong things. More benefits, more money, okay.

But they are _exactly_ the right tool to use, for instance, in increasing (or just creating, for that matter) safety in the coal mines. I've always been puzzled at why they concentrate on the low hanging fruit when there are places where they could create real change.


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## MikeOReilly

Jammer Six said:


> Unions have a history of concentrating on the wrong things. More benefits, more money, okay.
> 
> But they are _exactly_ the right tool to use, for instance, in increasing (or just creating, for that matter) safety in the coal mines. I've always been puzzled at why they concentrate on the low hanging fruit when there are places where they could create real change.


More money, more benefits, absolutely! But unions in your country DID create real change. Coming out of the Depression, and with the New Deal changes (hard fought and hard won by workers), unions championed and won many of the basic rights we take (or took) for granted. Paid holidays and sick leave. A forty hour work week. Paid overtime, and a limit to the arbitrary and absolute power of owners. Precarious working conditions were mostly eliminated. And yes, fair wages (and benefits) for all workers.

Unions created the middle class. So it's no surprise that the USA has the most decimated middle class of any modern western country; it also has the most decimated union movement. Of course, Canada is not far behind, and the rest on on the same path.

BTW, I well know the dark side of unions as well. Unions are just another power source. They are required to balance the power of the owners. But like any power, when they become too strong, they are as corruptible as any. If things did swing too far towards unions by the mid-70s, they have clearly swung way too far in the opposite direction now. I'm not sure how we find a new balance though. Hopefully it won't require another crisis like the Depression and WWIII.


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## SVAuspicious

TakeFive said:


> Teachers work very hard and don't make a lot of money, but they would make a lot less without unions.


Put this on the agenda the next time we catch up.


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## Jammer Six

Unions have an _enormous_ amount of work left to do in the U.S., starting with the coal mines, then moving to other mines and into commercial shippping. The idea that they've cleaned up "most" of the danger is pretty funny.

Maybe they've cleaned up most of the danger you can _see_, but...

Forget eliminating danger. Just get the body count down.

After that, their goal should be to get the everyday heroes, starting with those who teach, serve and protect NFL level compensation. Make teaching a career one _fights_ to get into, that only takes the best and the brightest, and only keeps them as long as their passion is alive.

But that's as much a pipe-dream as eliminating tipping. So I'd settle for coal without deaths.


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## Minnewaska

The sole problem with unions is that they became exactly what they were designed to protest. Those at the top taking unjust profit and using unfair advantage on others to accept their agenda. There are more criminals in union management in the big cities (where most union workers are) than in the 1 percent, by far.

The concept of unions is very sound and could be part of the solution to compensation structure. However, they became as corrupt as the employers they accused. Many employees don't want to be associated, but are coerced. With theoretically improved wages and benefits, comes an association that now tells you when and where you can work (which require, in some cases that you bribe your way into the next opening). That will have to change before unions are the solution to compensation structure.

Unions have been weakening, because they are corrupt, not because a big conspiracy against them has been effective.

https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ocgs/infiltrated-labor-unions


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## MikeOReilly

Jammer Six said:


> Unions have an _enormous_ amount of work left to do in the U.S., starting with the coal mines, then moving to other mines and into commercial shippping. The idea that they've cleaned up "most" of the danger is pretty funny.
> 
> Maybe they've cleaned up most of the danger you can _see_, but...
> 
> Forget eliminating danger. Just get the body count down.


Who made this "most" claim? Not anyone here &#8230; only you as far as I can see. In any case, here are the facts easily found:

US Dept. of Labour Injury Trends in Mining



> Total deaths in all types of U.S. mining, which had averaged 1,500 or more per year during earlier decades, decreased on average during the 1990s to under 100 per year, and reached historic lows of 35 total deaths in 2009 and 2012. The average annual injuries to miners in all segments of the mining industry have also decreased steadily.
> 
> While annual coal mining deaths numbered more than 1,000 a year in the early part of the 20th century, they decreased to an average of about 451 annual fatalities in the 1950s, and to 141 in the 1970s. From 2006-2010, the yearly average number of fatalities in coal mining decreased to 35. In 2009, there were 18 recorded coal mining deaths, a record low number. Sadly, coal mining fatalities dramatically increased to 48 in 2010, with the tragedy at the Upper Big Branch Mine claiming 29 lives in addition to the 19 other coal miners killed that year. In 2011, 21 coal miners were killed in accidents. 2012 saw 19 coal miners killed in accidents.


I'd bet that this parallels unionization levels in mining. I bet unions grew, and became strong through to about 1990s. By then many unions had been systematically destroyed in your country. It takes time to reverse things, so by the late 2000s we're beginning to see that uptick in body count once again.


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## Yamsailor

The problem is, if you pay the skipper so he/she doesn't depend on tips, the price of the course goes up. Do you think there will be a less customer demand if the prices were higher up front with a lost less dependence on tips?

For the record--I prefer being less dependent on tips and getting paid for my level of expertise. Often I think customers believe we licensed captains are 70% service workers and 30% mariners---which is exactly the opposite of the truth.



MikeOReilly said:


> Since I am part of the target group for your rant I'll quickly state in no uncertain terms that I am NOT suggesting in any way that a worker gets stiffed. Just The Opposite in fact. I want all workers to be paid fairly and adequately. What I object to is the use of tipping as a way for companies to off load the risk and expense of the wages their workers are owed.
> 
> I have absolutely NO problem with someone offering a gratuity if they feel the service they've received warrants it. The issue here is the expansion of "suggested" or "recommended" gratuities, which functionally masquerades as shift of wage costs directly onto the customer. It allows the company to get away with not paying a fair wage, and it masks the real cost of a service or product.
> 
> Lets be clear. These are not tips or gratuities. These are part of the salary of the employee. And in the case of sailing schools, this is growing trend b/c it benefits the companies, not the workers.
> 
> The school my wife used for two Caribbean courses (Intermediate and Advanced CYA) is called Grassroots Sailing School . I can tell you about the schools I used, but those courses were both taught in Canada (Georgian Bay and PNW).
> 
> BTW, there are lots of studies into the impact of tipping on quality of service. Most conclude that tipping produces almost no impact on the service one receives. But the same research clearly shows a range of negative social and economic outcomes for both the server and the customer. The only one who really wins is the company owner.


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## ianjoub

Back to the tipping thing:

Should one tip a masseuse? Should the tip be higher for a 'happy ending' or is that already figured into the price?

On a more serious note, I do not tip 'professionals': doctors, lawyers, plumbers. I do not tip business owners either, only employees. Where do you all stand on this? 

I own/operate an auto repair shop. I do not expect tips from my customers. My employee does receive tips once in a while though which I do not object to.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Minnewaska said:


> The sole problem with unions is that they became exactly what they were designed to protest. Those at the top taking unjust profit and using unfair advantage on others to accept their agenda. There are more criminals in union management in the big cities (where most union workers are) than in the 1 percent, by far.


Please post your reference to this "more criminals" statement Minn. It's quite the claim.

Like I said, unions are as corruptible as any other human power construct. Just like with governments, religions, and businesses, any organization is susceptible to criminal activity. If we did away with all the businesses that have been found guilty of criminal activity, well, lets just say there wouldn't be many left standing.



Minnewaska said:


> Unions have been weakening, because they are corrupt, not because a big conspiracy against them has been effective.
> 
> https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ocgs/infiltrated-labor-unions


That's not what this link says, and this doesn't agree with ANY analysis of the decline of unions I'm aware of. Again, please post your references. Unions have declines so precipitously in the USA due to government policy, automation and globalization (which is also govt. policy). It's not a conspiracy. It is a reality.

As evidence I would simply point to Canada which has experienced the same level of union corruption, the same levels of automation and globalization, yet has NOT seen the same precipitous decline in union rates (although they have gone down a lot). The difference: public policy. In fact, you could make the same comparison to any developed country in the world.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Yamsailor said:


> The problem is, if you pay the skipper so he/she doesn't depend on tips, the price of the course goes up. Do you think there will be a less customer demand if the prices were higher up front with a lost less dependence on tips?
> 
> For the record--I prefer being less dependent on tips and getting paid for my level of expertise. Often I think customers believe we licensed captains are 70% service workers and 30% mariners---which is exactly the opposite of the truth.


Possibly the demand will go down if the prices were raised, although someone earlier in this thread compared prices between some companies that promote tipping vs those that don't. They claimed there was little price difference, so I'm not sure what's going on there&#8230;

Regardless, the customer IS paying the full shot, whether it is in the list price, or in the price plus all the mandatory tips. It's simply more honest, clear and fair for everyone to list the full price.

BTW, for all you free marketeers out there, shouldn't you be arguing to do away with tips on the basis that it creates an externality free of the normal market forces? How are companies to receive the appropriate market messages if they offload their responsibility for a major part of the cost onto customers? Since the customer is now directly responsible for a large part the workers' wages, the company no longer receives the necessary pricing messages (or does so in a more muted way).

Tipping is crony capitalism at its finest.


----------



## Minnewaska

MikeOReilly said:


> Please post your reference to this "more criminals" statement Minn. It's quite the claim.
> 
> Like I said, unions are as corruptible as any other human power construct. ......


When I copied the link I provided, I had a page of google hits on union corruption. If I have the time, I may post another. I have personal experience working with unions and businesses. I've never been personally threatened by another business, as I have by more than one union. It's irrational to think that there is same prevalence of illegal activity in our business community. It's documentable, I'm just not sure it's worth the time to do so for you. Can't speak to how Canada works.


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## tempest

ianjoub said:


> In my experience (working as a bartender for 8 years before, during, and after college): The tipped workers on welfare are single mothers who underreport their tips to qualify. IE: A bunch of useless welfare whores. Maybe it is just where I lived and worked, but my assessment is based on a 95+% observation.


Seems like Pretty Harsh Judgment to me.

Sounds like a working, single mother doing what she has to do to take care of her kids. They aren't sitting home watching soap operas if they're working. Foodservice jobs, are one of those schedules that allow a single mother to earn a few bucks and be around before and after school.

Under-reporting tips certainly isn't confined to one gender. Any stats on how many of those kids have deadbeat dads who don't contribute anything?


----------



## ianjoub

tempest said:


> Seems like Pretty Harsh Judgment to me.
> 
> Sounds like a working, single mother doing what she has to do to take care of her kids. They aren't sitting home watching soap operas if they're working. Foodservice jobs, are one of those schedules that allow a single mother to earn a few bucks and be around before and after school.
> 
> Under-reporting tips certainly isn't confined to one gender. Any stats on how many of those kids have deadbeat dads who don't contribute anything?


Underreporting tips isn't confined to one gender. *All* of the people collecting welfare in my observation were women.

"a working, single mother doing what she has to do to take care of her kids" is a BS argument. 'she' is STEALING from me. Would it hold any water if I was a working dad doing what I have to do to take care of my kids by mugging women leaving their waitressing jobs for their money?

'Deadbeat' dads have nothing to do with this.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Minnewaska said:


> When I copied the link I provided, I had a page of google hits on union corruption. If I have the time, I may post another. I have personal experience working with unions and businesses. I've never been personally threatened by another business, as I have by more than one union. It's irrational to think that there is same prevalence of illegal activity in our business community. It's documentable, I'm just not sure it's worth the time to do so for you. Can't speak to how Canada works.


Your claim that I'm asking for support of is not whether there are references to union corruption. That's not in dispute. Your claim is that: "There are more criminals in union management in the big cities (where most union workers are) than in the 1 percent, *by far*" (my bold for emphasis). Just doing a back-of-the-hankerchief calculation, that means there are more than 3,240,000 corrupt union managers.

_ADD: Or did you mean there are fewer corrupt people as part of the 1% group, not "in the 1 percent"? If so, then you can ignore my number. Not worth butting heads over. Doesn't change the need to support this fantastical claim of yours._

Union corruption exists, just like business, government and just about any other human organization. Heck, corruption has been found in the Boy Scouts! Your claim is that it is worse "by far" in the labour movement. If this is the case it should be easy to demonstrate. I certainly have never heard such a claim, which is why I'm so curious as to your sources.

I made the other-country comparison to show the dubious nature of your claim that corruption is the cause of union decline in the USA. You wrote: "Unions have been weakening, because they are corrupt". Unless you can somehow explain why there is more corruption in the USA vs other similar countries, your claim remains doubtful.

_ADD2: A nice Canadian-USA comparison piece published here by Bloomberg (hardly a lefty organization): The Real Reason for the Decline of American Unions_


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## tempest

ianjoub said:


> Underreporting tips isn't confined to one gender. *All*
> 
> 'Deadbeat' dads have nothing to do with this.


Right, 'cause those kids were "immaculately conceived" Peddle your Holier than thou attitude somewhere else.


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## ianjoub

tempest said:


> Right, 'cause those kids were "immaculately conceived" Peddle your Holier than thou attitude somewhere else.


I gave an example of people committing welfare fraud, a felony, and stealing from me. You try to pass the blame to others, 'deadbeat dads'. You say I have a holier than thou attitude? You are mistaken. Your justifications for criminals speaks volumes about your character.


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## SVAuspicious

Skippers who sail with bareboat charterers aren't in unions. They don't make enough to pay the dues.


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## Arcb

SVauspicious is on a role, 2 posts minutes apart that made me giggle out loud, my son is looking at me like I'm nuts, sitting on the couch laughing at my phone.

I'm just not sure if the post was pro organised labour, anti organised labour or just a witty observation. I'm thinking the latter.


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## MikeOReilly

Arcb said:


> SVauspicious is on a role, 2 posts minutes apart that made me giggle out loud, my son is looking at me like I'm nuts, sitting on the couch laughing at my phone.
> 
> I'm just not sure if the post was pro organised labour, anti organised labour or just a witty observation. I'm thinking the latter.


I assume he's just trying to bring some levity to the discussion. Although in a sad way, it's kinda true for the so-called, and growing, 'precarious' workers in our economies. Labour organizations, just like all others, run on money. Workers who already make little, find it hard to fund unions. It's part of the cycle that helps devalue work. Once it gets rolling, it takes more and more effort to reverse.


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## Jammer Six

MikeOReilly said:


> Who made this "most" claim?


That was pretty funny.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Jammer Six said:


> That was pretty funny.


I tried to take you seriously by pointing to the facts regarding mining morbidity and mortality. I have never said unions have improved "most" of the problems that still exist in the mining industry. Heck, it was you who has brought up this non-sequitur.

I did point out that the great improvements in mining deaths occurred when unions were growing and strong, and I speculate that the recent small reversals may be partly due to decrease in union strength. But this is your bonnet that is buzzing with bees.

So, if you have something useful to say, just say it. Otherwise, you're just playing some childish game.


----------



## Minnewaska

MikeOReilly said:


> ......Just doing a back-of-the-hankerchief calculation, that means there are more than 3,240,000 corrupt union managers.........


By your calculation, I have to believe you misunderstood my point. I was saying there are more criminal people as a percent of union leaders than there are as a percent of those in the top 1% of wealth or, for that matter, as a percent of people running businesses. Unions are under attack, in great part, due to their corruption and disproportionate criminal element.

Nevertheless, it's unlikely you and I will see the effectiveness of unions and cause for their stumbles (in the modern age) the same and it's far enough from the thread topic, so we should probably drop it. I believe unions were formed, in the US, for good reason, then became as bad as what they accuse our employers of being. No way to reconcile our different points of view.

I'm good with avoiding a tipping culture within sailing instructors, but think that horse is over the horizon already. I've only objected to those (not you) that seem to argue not paying this tip, when it's customarily expected. At least, we agree on that.


----------



## Jammer Six

MikeOReilly said:


> So, if you have something useful to say, just say it. Otherwise, you're just playing some childish game.


I did. Long ago. You wanted to argue with it. Now you'll have to argue with someone else.


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## chef2sail

My head hurts.
This thread is a stream of consciousness tacking at a moments notice


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## Uricanejack

Yamsailor said:


> The problem is, if you pay the skipper so he/she doesn't depend on tips, the price of the course goes up. Do you think there will be a less customer demand if the prices were higher up front with a lost less dependence on tips?
> 
> For the record--I prefer being less dependent on tips and getting paid for my level of expertise. Often I think customers believe we licensed captains are 70% service workers and 30% mariners---which is exactly the opposite of the truth.


I think you are hitting the nail on the head. Or at least hitting my main objection to tipping.
I see myself as an instructor with a desire to be regarded as a professional sailor. Not a service worker.
Not that there is anything wrong with that. Just I am not interested in being a service worker.

The trouble with an expected tip. Particularly when the school says it is the custom to tip. You create the impression you are there as a server. Tips are generally given to people who serves us. The perception is service worker.
It has been pointed out instructing is generally quite low pay. I always made a rate I thought was acceptable and above the minimum wage. The problem, was the lack of hours. There just was never enough work to make a steady income. 
Perhaps it's just stupid pride thing. The reason I would choose not to work for a school which advertises a tip as being expected. To my mind they are advertising I will act as a server. Which changes my perception of the role to one I would not want to do.

When I did instruct I was quite happy without a tip, I was happy to by my own beer and burger if we went ashore for the evening. If they bought my beer and burger I thanked them and enjoyed it. On the very few occasions I received a tip. I said thanks.

Its the expectation I disagree with. The expectation changes my perception and the students. 
Other instructors don't see it this way. Particularly if they are already charter crew who are used to this system.

Ok we are all free to choose.


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## Scotty C-M

About the charter...

I think I'd just ask if a tip would be appreciated. I would be ready to tip if the answer was yes.


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## Yamsailor

Agreed. That is why I set a certain minimum daily rate. I won't work for less than the daily rate I think is appropriate for the job at hand. I am more than happy to let someone else get paid less than for the same work as long as I am not doing the work. If they want to value themselves and their time less than I---that is their issue. My time and skills are too valuable to be taken advantage of for low pay. Like the Joker said in the The Dark Knight: "If you're good at something, never do it for free."



Uricanejack said:


> I think you are hitting the nail on the head. Or at least hitting my main objection to tipping.
> I see myself as an instructor with a desire to be regarded as a professional sailor. Not a service worker.
> Not that there is anything wrong with that. Just I am not interested in being a service worker.
> 
> The trouble with an expected tip. Particularly when the school says it is the custom to tip. You create the impression you are there as a server. Tips are generally given to people who serves us. The perception is service worker.
> It has been pointed out instructing is generally quite low pay. I always made a rate I thought was acceptable and above the minimum wage. The problem, was the lack of hours. There just was never enough work to make a steady income.
> Perhaps it's just stupid pride thing. The reason I would choose not to work for a school which advertises a tip as being expected. To my mind they are advertising I will act as a server. Which changes my perception of the role to one I would not want to do.
> 
> When I did instruct I was quite happy without a tip, I was happy to by my own beer and burger if we went ashore for the evening. If they bought my beer and burger I thanked them and enjoyed it. On the very few occasions I received a tip. I said thanks.
> 
> Its the expectation I disagree with. The expectation changes my perception and the students.
> Other instructors don't see it this way. Particularly if they are already charter crew who are used to this system.
> 
> Ok we are all free to choose.


----------



## Jammer Six

In one-on-one negotiations for sailing instructors, here in Seattle, the sailing instructor never holds the cards.

If you are happy, as you say, to let someone else do the work, here, there will _always_ be someone else who is willing to take less. They might not be sailors, but new students won't know the difference.


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## MikeOReilly

Yamsailor said:


> Agreed. That is why I set a certain minimum daily rate. I won't work for less than the daily rate I think is appropriate for the job at hand. I am more than happy to let someone else get paid less than for the same work as long as I am not doing the work. If they want to value themselves and their time less than I---that is their issue. My time and skills are too valuable to be taken advantage of for low pay. Like the Joker said in the The Dark Knight: "If you're good at something, never do it for free."


Exactly right. In my 'profession' I've had the opportunity to teach and to mentor. One of the best lessons I learned, and pass on, is: _Sometimes it's more profitable NOT to do the work. _The one thing you can't make up is time, so if you waste yours on poorly-paid projects, you can't spend it on better paid work, or on finding better paid work.

Of course, the sad reality in this stressed economy is that everyone feels vulnerable and alone. Businesses know this, and in most negotiations They are Big, and You are Small. It's simple power dynamics. Which is the only reason why we need unions; to equalize the power dynamic at the negotiating table.


----------



## Yamsailor

true--but then over time the school will get a bad reputation for not providing quality instruction.

What do you feel is reasonable compensation for an instructor on a per-day basis?



Jammer Six said:


> In one-on-one negotiations for sailing instructors, here in Seattle, the sailing instructor never holds the cards.
> 
> If you are happy, as you say, to let someone else do the work, here, there will _always_ be someone else who is willing to take less. They might not be sailors, but new students won't know the difference.


----------



## SVAuspicious

MikeOReilly said:


> Labour organizations, just like all others, run on money. Workers who already make little, find it hard to fund unions. It's part of the cycle that helps devalue work. Once it gets rolling, it takes more and more effort to reverse.


In the US labor unions negotiated for safe working conditions and better pay and benefits. State and Federal law caught up with societal expectations and unions became redundant for pretty much everything but pay, and got stuck in the rut of seniority v. performance. In my opinion the day of the union in the US is past. There is no longer a value proposition that supports unions. OSHA and its state variants are all over the employer, and companies that hold retirement funds like Vanguard, T. Rowe Price, and Fidelity do better than the unions (although CALPERS is still a force to be reckoned with). The unions still collect major dues and deliver so much less. Time marches on and the world has changed.


----------



## Yamsailor

or use your skills sets in a different way.

Deliveries and charters pay way more than instruction.



MikeOReilly said:


> Exactly right. In my 'profession' I've had the opportunity to teach and to mentor. One of the best lessons I learned, and pass on, is: _Sometimes it's more profitable NOT to do the work. _The one thing you can't make up is time, so if you waste yours on poorly-paid projects, you can't spend it on better paid work, or on finding better paid work.
> 
> Of course, the sad reality in this stressed economy is that everyone feels vulnerable and alone. Businesses know this, and in most negotiations They are Big, and You are Small. It's simple power dynamics. Which is the only reason why we need unions; to equalize the power dynamic at the negotiating table.


----------



## Yamsailor

I would also like to point out that if the instructors who are willing to less take pay stopped taking less pay, then the schools would be forced to pay more money for an instructor. It really comes down to how one values themselves as a professional.


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## caberg

Yamsailor said:


> I would also like to point out that if the instructors who are willing to less take pay stopped taking less pay, then the schools would be forced to pay more money for an instructor.


Yea, I wish the competitors in my industry would start charging more so I could up my rates, too. Maybe if I ask nicely?


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## Yamsailor

Interesting that you mention this as I can tell you what happened at the school with which I work.

I started out instructing for a given day rate at a new sailing school 6 years ago. We started with brand new boats. The owner of the school received such positive feed back about my instruction that he thought I was not being paid enough. So he upped his prices in order to pay me more. He said "If we can't make reasonable money doing this work we just won't do it and we will change our business model." Our courses do cost more than most of our local competitors. Our business revenue increased substantially after the price rise. Why? Because word got out we give very good instruction, on new and well maintained equipment, AND our customer service is phenomenal. Now, did the number of students drop off a little? Yes it did however the increase in revenue far exceeded the drop in the number of students. I often get students who took their ASA 101 at other schools and said they were not happy so they come to our school for a refresher and the next level course.

The problem with a lot of schools is they try to cut corners. If you provide a quality service, you can make the revenue.



caberg said:


> Yea, I wish the competitors in my industry would start charging more so I could up my rates, too. Maybe if I ask nicely?


----------



## Jammer Six

Yamsailor said:


> It really comes down to how one values themselves as a professional.


Not always. Sometimes it comes down to how many days are left before the rent is due or how much oatmeal you have left in the cupboard.

Self valuation wouldn't come into it until survival is secure.

I don't know about ASA, (other than I don't like them, they passed a guy who had never made a successful MOB recovery) but U.S. Sailing doesn't let schools change the price. I'm not sure I buy your story.


----------



## Minnesail

It would be interesting to hear an economist's take on the issue.

There is an economic theory called Price Discrimination which studies when the same product is offered to different consumers at different prices. Think student and senior discounts, coupons, early bird specials, and discounts for advance purchase.

It doesn't cost a movie theater any less to have a student or senior sit in a seat, but they know that students and seniors are probably more price sensitive so they are willing to sell them a ticket at a reduced cost because otherwise they might not come at all.

Coupons are another way to price a product differently based on the customer's willingness to pay. They can offer a lower (coupon) price to those willing to hunt through websites or the Sunday newspaper, and they can charge a higher amount to the person that's just going to walk into the store and buy it. 

So by using a tipping model to provide a significant portion of their employee costs, the schools are basically for charging less for the stingy and/or extremely price sensitive, versus the George* to whom an extra couple hundred makes no difference. 


*George was the name we used for large tippers when I was a server.


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## Yamsailor

Frankly I don't care if you buy my story or not. The owner of the school nor I depend on the school as our main source of income.



Jammer Six said:


> Not always. Sometimes it comes down to how many days are left before the rent is due or how much oatmeal you have left in the cupboard.
> 
> Self valuation wouldn't come into it until survival is secure.
> 
> I don't know about ASA, (other than I don't like them, they passed a guy who had never made a successful MOB recovery) but U.S. Sailing doesn't let schools change the price. I'm not sure I buy your story.


----------



## Yamsailor

That's the key though---all courses are not equal. Look at time spent on the water, boats/equipment used, follow-up, personal attention. you have to ensure one is comparing apple to apples.

I know of a competitor that charges 89% of what we charge. Their boats don't always work. They get 1/2 the amount of on-the-water time and a lot less other services.



Minnesail said:


> It would be interesting to hear an economist's take on the issue.
> 
> There is an economic theory called Price Discrimination which studies when the same product is offered to different consumers at different prices. Think student and senior discounts, coupons, early bird specials, and discounts for advance purchase.
> 
> It doesn't cost a movie theater any less to have a student or senior sit in a seat, but they know that students and seniors are probably more price sensitive so they are willing to sell them a ticket at a reduced cost because otherwise they might not come at all.
> 
> Coupons are another way to price a product differently based on the customer's willingness to pay. They can offer a lower (coupon) price to those willing to hunt through websites or the Sunday newspaper, and they can charge a higher amount to the person that's just going to walk into the store and buy it.
> 
> So by using a tipping model to provide a significant portion of their employee costs, the schools are basically for charging less for the stingy and/or extremely price sensitive, versus the George* to whom an extra couple hundred makes no difference.
> 
> *George was the name we used for large tippers when I was a server.


----------



## MikeOReilly

SVAuspicious said:


> In the US labor unions negotiated for safe working conditions and better pay and benefits. State and Federal law caught up with societal expectations and unions became redundant for pretty much everything but pay, and got stuck in the rut of seniority v. performance. In my opinion the day of the union in the US is past. There is no longer a value proposition that supports unions. OSHA and its state variants are all over the employer, and companies that hold retirement funds like Vanguard, T. Rowe Price, and Fidelity do better than the unions (although CALPERS is still a force to be reckoned with). The unions still collect major dues and deliver so much less. Time marches on and the world has changed.


Well, lets just say we fundamentally disagree. It is utopian thinking to believe companies (and gvt's which are too often in the pockets of these same companies) aren't looking out for their best interest first. And if that means squeezing labour, so be it. I don't say there is any maliciousness to this. It's just what all businesses (including mine) do; we maximize revenue while minimizing expenses. Labour, as is clearly evident in the stagnant and declining wages paid to most people in the USA over the last 30 years, is a cost that is easily minimized.

Unions make it a little harder to squeeze workers. It's why the neoliberal agenda is so focused on destroying unions.


----------



## MikeOReilly

caberg said:


> Yea, I wish the competitors in my industry would start charging more so I could up my rates, too. Maybe if I ask nicely?


You could also do what workers have always done: organize. Act collectively. This is the only way workers have ever gotten ahead in a market economy.

Of course organizing is hard to do, especially in these kinds of work environments where people are working freelance, are hard to locate, and hard to support. And since they are already making so little, it is hard to convince them to fund a union. This leaves people alone, isolated, and easy to exploit.


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## Yamsailor

Sure you can people workers less. The less you pay them, the less they will buy the products and services you produce.



MikeOReilly said:


> Well, lets just say we fundamentally disagree. It is utopian thinking to believe companies (and gvt's which are too often in the pockets of these same companies) aren't looking out for their best interest first. And if that means squeezing labour, so be it. I don't say there is any maliciousness to this. It's just what all businesses (including mine) do; we maximize revenue while minimizing expenses. Labour, as is clearly evident in the stagnant and declining wages paid to most people in the USA over the last 30 years, is a cost that is easily minimized.
> 
> Unions make it a little harder to squeeze workers. It's why the neoliberal agenda is so focused on destroying unions.


----------



## MikeOReilly

Yamsailor said:


> That's the key though---all courses are not equal. Look at time spent on the water, boats/equipment used, follow-up, personal attention. you have to ensure one is comparing apple to apples.
> 
> I know of a competitor that charges 89% of what we charge. Their boats don't always work. They get 1/2 the amount of on-the-water time and a lot less other services.


Yes, quality matters in some markets. You'd think sailing instruction should be one, although it must be hard for customers to discern a good company from a mediocre or poor one. The websites can all look the same, and I'm sure they would all promise "top quality instructors." Outside of word-of-mouth, it would be hard for most customers to discern the good from the bad from the ugly.

But it's easy to compare prices, which is where the "suggested tip" stuff is such a scam. It hides the real cost in the small print.


----------



## mstern

SVAuspicious said:


> In the US labor unions negotiated for safe working conditions and better pay and benefits. State and Federal law caught up with societal expectations and unions became redundant for pretty much everything but pay, and got stuck in the rut of seniority v. performance. In my opinion the day of the union in the US is past. There is no longer a value proposition that supports unions. OSHA and its state variants are all over the employer, and companies that hold retirement funds like Vanguard, T. Rowe Price, and Fidelity do better than the unions (although CALPERS is still a force to be reckoned with). The unions still collect major dues and deliver so much less. Time marches on and the world has changed.


I think this is an excellent observation. In company, I see union members fighting over the proper role of their organization. There are three options: work for the benefit of the craft; work for the general benefit of the members of this particular chapter; or work for the benefit of the senior members of the chapter. The senior members seem to have won the day in my neck of the woods. They fight for benefits, work rules and jobs that preserve or enhance the overtime pay of the senior-most members of the local chapter, rather than seek to maximize the overall pay and benefits of all of the local members, or to emphasize some job growth in the craft as a whole. This has lead to a number of the younger members to seek changes in leadership. I find it interesting to listen to the arguments from the outside; the young guys wonder why their hard work isn't rewarded, and the old guys wonder why the young guys can't wait their turn to make good money like they did. Unfortunately, none of the groups see management as anything but the enemy. I have nothing to do with labor relations at my company, but I am sure there is plenty of blame to go around for both sides. Regardless, it has become almost impossible for us to win bids against non-union competition. Our guys aren't paid more per hour, but they have been very resistant to rules changes that would lead to greater productivity. Some work like dogs and do a great job, and some work as little as humanly possible and fight you every step of the way to that low level. John Steinbeck is probably spinning in his grave.


----------



## Minnesail

Yamsailor said:


> That's the key though---all courses are not equal. Look at time spent on the water, boats/equipment used, follow-up, personal attention. you have to ensure one is comparing apple to apples.





MikeOReilly said:


> ...Outside of word-of-mouth, it would be hard for most customers to discern the good from the bad from the ugly.
> 
> But it's easy to compare prices, which is where the "suggested tip" stuff is such a scam. It hides the real cost in the small print.


Of course there are differences between schools, but by putting a large part of the cost of the course into the tip the school is effectively charging different amounts for the same course. And that's the whole idea of the theory of Price Discrimination.

Someone who might be poor or stingy, or just uniformed pays less. Someone who is generous, or an easy mark, or George pays more.

I find it a vaguely dishonest way to stratify the costs.

A more honest way would deluxe packages. This is a technique that businesses can use to charge more to those who aren't worried about the price point, but still get the penny-pinchers in the door. Charge an extra $200 for the deluxe package which consists of a framed photo and a couple cheap souvenirs that costs the school $20. There, you've separated the wealthy from their lucre, you've still let the penny-pinchers in, and you're not putting the risk on a low-paid instructor.


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## Minnewaska

I don't think big tippers value a framed picture as much as a better experience....... To Insure Promptness. 

People will pay to cut in front of the que, not to have to refuel, etc. It's a good idea to provide a higher price up front, for better service.

I used to bareboat from the big guys that didn't require refueling. They were top prices. Then I found my way to a smaller operation, where you were required to return the boat with full fuel. Arguably, that also allows them to advertise a lower price, not unlike passing off instructor cost for a gratuity. I will be curious what anti-tippers think about that.

When I learned I could skip the refueling, by paying a $75 fee, plus the cost of fuel, I took it! That was well worth me not hovering for the fuel dock and stressing my vacation. 

Unfortunately, I understand this year's charter company not only requires full tanks on return, but does not offer a fee to skip it. If memory services, its more like a $15/gal punative charge to keep you from forgetting. **** you need to work on that Kyle  ******


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## davidpm

Minnesail said:


> Someone who might be poor or stingy, or just uniformed pays less. Someone who is generous, or an easy mark, or George pays more.
> 
> I find it a vaguely dishonest way to stratify the costs.


I totally get your point of view. That is certainly one way to look at it.

But what if tipping is optional and no one feels compelled to tip?

For some people an extra $40 for a couple days would be such a small sum they would not even think about it.
For others that $40 is needed for gas to get home.

For some people paying a tip will anger them as they don't think anyone should get a tip.
For someone else, they may feel good about themselves that they have a tangible way to show their appreciation.

The going rate for instructors is about $160 a day. As to if that is a lot or a little, it depends on what your options are.

I guess what I'm saying is either tip or don't tip, that is your choice.

If the school implies that the tip is required then just count it as part of the course fee when deciding on a school.

Personally, when I get a tip it makes me more motivated, not because I need the $20, I have a real job too, but because I see it as a tangible way that someone went out of their way to show appreciation.


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## Uricanejack

Minnewaska said:


> I don't think big tippers value a framed picture as much as a better experience....... To Insure Promptness.
> 
> People will pay to cut in front of the que, not to have to refuel, etc. It's a good idea to provide a higher price up front, for better service.
> 
> I used to bareboat from the big guys that didn't require refueling. They were top prices. Then I found my way to a smaller operation, where you were required to return the boat with full fuel. Arguably, that also allows them to advertise a lower price, not unlike passing off instructor cost for a gratuity. I will be curious what anti-tippers think about that.
> 
> When I learned I could skip the refueling, by paying a $75 fee, plus the cost of fuel, I took it! That was well worth me not hovering for the fuel dock and stressing my vacation.
> 
> Unfortunately, I understand this year's charter company not only requires full tanks on return, but does not offer a fee to skip it. If memory services, its more like a $15/gal punative charge to keep you from forgetting. **** you need to work on that Kyle  ******


Like you I wouldn't pay extra for a framed picture. 
I sure as heck wouldn't pay 75 dollars to skip the fuel dock. It takes me 5 minutes. Or being overcharged for fuel. You must have way more money than sense:smile


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## Uricanejack

Yamsailor said:


> I would also like to point out that if the instructors who are willing to less take pay stopped taking less pay, then the schools would be forced to pay more money for an instructor. It really comes down to how one values themselves as a professional.


If anyone would like to start an International Union of Sailing Instructors. I will sign a card. :smile


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## Uricanejack

Jammer Six said:


> In one-on-one negotiations for sailing instructors, here in Seattle, the sailing instructor never holds the cards.
> 
> If you are happy, as you say, to let someone else do the work, here, there will _always_ be someone else who is willing to take less. They might not be sailors, but new students won't know the difference.


We need a Union, Solidarity comrade.


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## ianjoub

Minnewaska said:


> When I learned I could skip the refueling, by paying a $75 fee, plus the cost of fuel, I took it! That was well worth me not hovering for the fuel dock and stressing my vacation.
> 
> Unfortunately, I understand this year's charter company not only requires full tanks on return, but does not offer a fee to skip it. If memory services, its more like a $15/gal punative charge to keep you from forgetting. **** you need to work on that Kyle  ******


The company I charter from doesn't offer the service either. It is annoying.


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## ianjoub

Uricanejack said:


> I sure as heck wouldn't pay 75 dollars to skip the fuel dock. It takes me 5 minutes. Or being overcharged for fuel. You must have way more money than sense:smile


It takes 30 minutes as a best case scenario. I have more money than TIME, not sense.


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## Minnesail

Uricanejack said:


> Like you I wouldn't pay extra for a framed picture.
> I sure as heck wouldn't pay 75 dollars to skip the fuel dock. It takes me 5 minutes. Or being overcharged for fuel. You must have way more money than sense:smile





ianjoub said:


> It takes 30 minutes as a best case scenario. I have more money than TIME, not sense.


Also I value my time differently when I'm on vacation. I wouldn't pay someone $75 for something I could do in a half hour at home, but I would while on vacation.


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## Minnesail

davidpm said:


> I totally get your point of view. That is certainly one way to look at it.
> 
> But what if tipping is optional and no one feels compelled to tip?


I was just trying to describe why I thought the sailing schools might adopt that model. I'm not necessarily for it, and I wasn't trying to call anyone stingy.

I guess I would prefer a model as you describe, where the instructor is paid in full by the school and any tips are optional and outside of that.


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## Uricanejack

Minnewaska said:


> The sole problem with unions is that they became exactly what they were designed to protest. Those at the top taking unjust profit and using unfair advantage on others to accept their agenda. There are more criminals in union management in the big cities (where most union workers are) than in the 1 percent, by far.
> 
> The concept of unions is very sound and could be part of the solution to compensation structure. However, they became as corrupt as the employers they accused. Many employees don't want to be associated, but are coerced. With theoretically improved wages and benefits, comes an association that now tells you when and where you can work (which require, in some cases that you bribe your way into the next opening). That will have to change before unions are the solution to compensation structure.
> 
> Unions have been weakening, because they are corrupt, not because a big conspiracy against them has been effective.
> 
> https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ocgs/infiltrated-labor-unions


Union history started in an era when employers would hire guns or thugs to intimidate employees. Or union members. Some unions allowed gangsters in to assist in fighting back. I am sure most regretted it in the long run. Gangsters and criminals don't provide assistance for nothing. Their prime motivation is their own gain. 
Jimmy Hoffa disappeared when I was in elementary school. History says he was corrupt and in partnership with gangster's if not actually a gangster. But he was well regarded and had the loyalty and support of his members

Corrupt, Gangsters, Criminal, I surprised communist hasn't been mentioned yet. Call it a conspiracy or not as you choose. Unions are declining because there industries are disappearing. The old union strongholds are often gone. The political climate is generally anti union. The biggest Unions left are public sector.


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## Jammer Six

Uricanejack said:


> Like you I wouldn't pay extra for a framed picture.
> I sure as heck wouldn't pay 75 dollars to skip the fuel dock. It takes me 5 minutes. Or being overcharged for fuel. You must have way more money than sense:smile


I'd pay $150 to skip the fuel dock, and another $100 to skip the pumpout. I don't know where you're from, but here, if you make a mistake (and by "mistake", I mean just a few drops in the water) at the fuel dock, all hell breaks loose.


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## Uricanejack

Jammer Six said:


> I'd pay $150 to skip the fuel dock, and another $100 to skip the pumpout. I don't know where you're from, but here, if you make a mistake (and by "mistake", I mean just a few drops in the water) at the fuel dock, all hell breaks loose.


I probably would pay extra to skip the pump out.

Where am I from just up the coast. I fuel up in US when ever I cross over to Friday Harbor, Roche Harbor, Pt Roberts(kept Boat there)


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## Minnewaska

Uricanejack said:


> Like you I wouldn't pay extra for a framed picture.
> I sure as heck wouldn't pay 75 dollars to skip the fuel dock. It takes me 5 minutes. Or being overcharged for fuel. You must have way more money than sense:smile


It think you're just trying to be funny, but your swing missed.

You have no idea what fuel dock I'm referring to. This one was in Nanny Cay, which on turn over day, gets packed. You can hover in a confined harbor for 30 mins, just waiting for a spot on the dock. The solution is to get back super early and avoid the rush, but then I cut my last morning short. At the least, you have to leave early enough to pull off the unknown wait and refueling time. For $75, I get the entire morning to myself, can return at the last minute and just walk off the boat. Do you really think, after a $5k vacation, this is indulgent?

Further, send me a video of you tying up, refueling, paying for the fuel and casting off in 5 minutes. Seems you've never been to the islands. On island time, I've seen it take 5 mins for the attendant to turn the pump on.

Maybe you prefer to clean your own hotel bathroom or cook your own food at a restaurant. I can do both, but this is vacation.

For the fee, I also avoid the need to tip the dock hand.


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## SVAuspicious

Minnewaska said:


> This one was in Nanny Cay, which on turn over day, gets packed.


Yet another reason for a 10 day charter. *grin* Just sayin'.


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## Minnewaska

SVAuspicious said:


> Yet another reason for a 10 day charter. *grin* Just sayin'.


Wish I could find the time. Way more than $75 too.


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## ianjoub

I have a 53' Jenneau for 9 days, from Dec 24th through Jan 2 

Wish I could pre pay for a fuel refill....


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## SimonV

Seriously. I would consider tipping an instructor a bribe.


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## kenr74

This is better than a gun thread. :clobber


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## Minnewaska

SimonV said:


> Seriously. I would consider tipping an instructor a bribe.


That's a valid point, however, I think it has more gravity for instructors that have to determine whether you are granted a privilege of some kind. No law, in the US, requires these basic sailing certificates.

The conflict exists anyway, as the sailing instructor gets to decide whether their student passes, which also reflects on how good an instructor they are. When this really matters, someone other than the instructor administers the test.


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## davidpm

Minnewaska said:


> That's a valid point, however, I think it has more gravity for instructors that have to determine whether you are granted a privilege of some kind. No law, in the US, requires these basic sailing certificates.
> 
> The conflict exists anyway, as the sailing instructor gets to decide whether their student passes, which also reflects on how good an instructor they are. When this really matters, someone other than the instructor administers the test.


The test is all done and graded and papers signed.

The tip if it is given is after all that.

I suspect that most all folks get that if someone has five days on the water total that they got while getting a 101,103,104 cert 3 years ago their ability to bare-boat safely is something that needs to be evaluated.

Whether the instructor got a tip or not is probably not a significant factor.


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## Minnewaska

davidpm said:


> The test is all done and graded and papers signed.
> 
> The tip if it is given is after all that.
> 
> I suspect that most all folks get that if someone has five days on the water total that they got while getting a 101,103,104 cert 3 years ago their ability to bare-boat safely is something that needs to be evaluated.
> 
> Whether the instructor got a tip or not is probably not a significant factor.


I don't really disagree, I just think it's a valid point (as I said) that a custom to tip the instructor could influence the instructor's willingness to fail a student, for fear of not getting one, after the fact. However, that conflict subtly exists anyway, as an instructor's effectiveness can be measured by how many of their students pass.

However, my follow on point was that passing or failing entry level sailing courses isn't a terribly relevant thing. It's not required for much.

Pass everyone (even if inspired by a tip) and I don't see much of an issue. That would different if one's flight instructor was tipped and also gave the exam. However, in that case, an independent party (FAA DE) does the exam.


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## ianjoub

Minnewaska said:


> That would different if one's flight instructor was tipped and also gave the exam. However, in that case, *an independent party (FAA DE) does the exam*.


That is the guy you tip in advance


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## Minnewaska

ianjoub said:


> That is the guy you tip in advance


In fact, he/she gets paid in advance.


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## donsboat

I',m from Australia. What's tipping?l


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## ianjoub

donsboat said:


> I',m from Australia. What's tipping?l


A city in China.


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## TakeFive

donsboat said:


> I',m from Australia. What's tipping?l


It's a dirty trick that youthful hooligans play on sleeping cattle. Kind of like dwarf throwing, but with larger victims. :laugh


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## Brown 123

I tipped 10% for the crew that cleaned and prepared the boat. They also moved the boat to an outside dock each morning. It was a bare boat charter out of Charleston, SC on a Benatau 32.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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