# Used Sailboat Market



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

What is the general status of the used sailboat market in the U.S. right now? Is it a buyers or a sellers market?

We have all heard about the troubles in the U.S. housing market. And the predictions that the economy is heading into a recession. Does that translate into a weaker market for used boats? I tend to believe that it does, but I would like to hear some other opinions. Any brokers out there who want to weigh in?

Are there regional differences in the used boat market? Is the East coast a better deal than the west, or vice versa?

All opinions welcome.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

If you look at a few boats on the East Coast and then look at the same on the West you will quickly see the east coast (especially southeast coast and gulf of mexico) have the lower prices. As I am in the market for a new boat now I beleive that the market has dropped with the recession. It is a buyers market for basically anything right now I think. Nothing is as bad as the housing market though.


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## Booda (Mar 20, 2008)

I may not be the most knowledgeable person on the subject, but here is my 2 cents.

We have been looking at boats for the last 3 months and have found that the prices are not really going down much and the quality boats are still selling, while the less quality boats are remaining on the market longer, pretty standard stuff, I would expect. Talking to the Brokers, few admit the there is a buying slow down. 

We have made a offer on a boat which was considerably less that the asking price but was in line with the NADA Guides, we are still waiting to hear back from the seller.

Pat


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## seawitch1906 (Oct 10, 2006)

*used market ?!*

well as I'm reading your posts , perhaps a different view

West coast is much better than any other part of the country as I experience that difference every day .. beside that the upper scale of the market is strongest 200k and up .. meaning the well to do keep doing well , the 100k a year guy doing worse ..as expected

there is some false believe the East coast boats are less expensive ..well end of the day when you shipped, commisioned twice , paid for the accidentals ..you end up paying more... ALWAYS ...


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Actually the disparateness between East and West coast prices is there. My Barberis is worth 10K less on the East Coast than it is here on the West Coast as I was advised by my surveyor. A majority of that (I believe) is that there is a friendlier coastal system on the East coast making it easier to transport / sail a vessel from other states - thus the buyer regions are much larger. Also there are many more marinas concentrated on the East coast per area than there are on the West Coast for the most part...


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

I don't know what price range you are looking in, but for early 90's production boats 32-36' <$80k, it seems owners realize its not the time to sell and there aren't that many nice boats on the market. The boats that seem to stay listed for a while are older with higher odds of age related issues, or boats that are overpriced. The higher quality 80's boats I've looked at such as Tartans 37's, Pretorians and Sabres also seem to be languishing on the market, so I suppose you could argue that sellers expectations are not yet in line with buyers.

A couple of months ago, I made an offer well below asking price, but what I considered fair, on a nice Catalina 36 and the sellers counter left a gap that I was not willing to bridge. He's since dropped his asking price and I've advised the broker I'll slightly increase my offer and still nothing, even though I'm willing to pay within 10-12% of his asking price, which in this market I think is all one could expect.

All in all, the market in my size/price range and area (Ches. Bay) seems pretty stagnant. I see the exact same boats, at the exact same prices every time I check YW. Never-the-less, it seems few sellers are ready to cut their losses at this point. IMHO, I think its wishful thinking that they will reap more by holding on to their boats. The odds are at least even that this downturn will be deeper and longer than a lot of folks think.

Honestly, my feelings about the economy have me very close to bagging the boat idea, at least for the foreseeable future. My wife and I both love being out on the water, but not if the expense weighs too heavily on our budget.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I believe it is a buyer's market in this unstable economy. If I could not get a GREAT deal on a boat I preferred, I would look elsewhere. There are more than enough boats to investigate. If I saw a boat that had to be transported, I would consider it if the survey proved it was worth those dollar$ asked. But, I would never give what the seller is asking through a broker. I only purchase from private sellers because it is easier to prove how over-priced the selective boat really is. Always have the sale contingent on a 
favorable survey.

-----------------------
C&C 27
SV Doodles


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

From what I have heard around the water fountain, good boats 30-40k and under are in demand and are selling. Between 50 and 200k, only the very good fully equipped boats are selling near their asking. Most of the others in that range are sitting. Above 200k, the demand is for new or near new boats.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

bestfriend is pretty accurate from what I saw over the last year + shopping.
I think that many sellers are holding out. I saw boats for sale sitting on a cradle for 2 years listed at top dollar prices and in need of work. Something has to give. One negative is that finance rates just went back up.
In January I was seeing 6.5%. I got 5.99%. But it just recently bounced back up to around 6.5% or more. My lender told me he has seen many deals fall through becouse of financing. And lenders are tightening up their standards. They are using lower valuations on which to base their loans, so you have to put more money down to make up the difference in that equasion.

But there is a lot of overpriced junk out there and the good stuff either goes fast or sits at a high price.

One factor is the owner that decides that if they can't get top dollar for their existing boat then they won't bother trading up. They have the money to keep operating the existing boat but aren't willing to 'give away' the old boat for a new one. That puts a squeeze on new boats. A broker told me they are seeing 10% or less margin on new boats.

Lots of different dynamics at play here depending on location, time of year, price range, condition.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Buyers market for sure. Those that are waiting for a better price may find lower prices long before a turnaround. The result is the cost of maintaining slip and insurance, they have lost money.
pigslo


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Are there regional differences in the used boat market?


 There are indeed. They are quite pronounced and obvious to even the most ill-informed layman.

The old adage "the cream rises to the top" sums the situation up nicely. Here on Lake Ontario, we are at the 43rd parallel. Very much on top of most of the world, and definitely on top of the United States of Despairica.

You will find the best boats here. Each of these fresh-water indulgences represents the culmination of all that is right and holy in yacht design, executed with a purity of line and purpose seldom found on this sordid globe of ours.

Without exception, they have been lovingly cared for, sailed only in the fairest of weather and buffed, waxed, wrapped up and carefully tucked away each winter.

Somewhat south and to the east and the west we find the boats of Maine, Massachusetts, Washington state and British Columbia. Undeniably great boating areas all with centuries of maritime history behind them, their craft are beautiful yet suffer greatly from one common factor - a saltwater environment.

So, while the boats are good and the maintenance is conscientious, they are fighting a losing battle against the corrosive minerals in the salt water, and much as their women do, the boats age prematurely. The occasional exception to this may be found in the case of a wooden boat, where the salt water has the efffect of "pickling" the wood, therby preserving it somewhat. Unfortunately, the women do not pickle successfully - no matter how much wood is used  .

Further south - Annapolis, Chesapeake, Oregon, Baltimore, Charleston et al. - the quality declines rapidly. In this area the boats, along with the citizenry are frequently of ill-defined and suspect lineage. There is much intermingling and sharing of stanchions, hulls, masts, stuffing boxes and wives, to the point where it is difficult to tell which craft is the product of which clan of builders.

Also, the boats, much like the children in the area, are subject to long, painful hours of overexposure to ultra-violet radiation hence prone to the accelerated deterioration and mutation associated with that hazard.

Again, these are boats that spend their lives in salt water of questionable provenance or purity. They are by and large owned by Republicans, a unique life form to date unknown outside the lower contiguous 10 "states". Republicanism, a zealotry which typically manifests itself as an expression of regressionist political thought, has the unfortunate side-effect of preventing its adherents from seeing things clearly or accurately.

As can be imagined, this makes for less than ideal yacht maintenance. While the Republican may be ready, willing and able to tackle whatever job might need to be done, their myopic creed prevents them from noticing the decay around them. Hulls go unpainted, leaks magnify, and things just generally go from tolerable to unbelievable. While a normal person may be able to look two feet ahead and spot numerous areas of concern in 5 minutes, your garden variety Republican is just not able to focus that far for that long.

So - you'd do well to head north to buy your boat.

Hope this helps. Good Luck


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Listen to Sailormann, he speaks the truth. He is wise beyond his years, if thats possible given his age. I purchased one of these fine yachts from above, but it has gotten the best of me and proven me the lesser man. Now it is for sale.


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

bestfriend said:


> Listen to Sailormann, he speaks the truth. He is wise beyond his years, if thats possible given his age. I purchased one of these fine yachts from above, but it has gotten the best of me and proven me the lesser man. Now it is for sale.


You are not a republican or you are? Maybe you bought from a republican but are independent but the boat itself relies on democratic principles - meaning that it will say it is broke and needing attention but only when an audience is wanting to hear that.. None the less it doesn't make you the lessor man - just means your boat was more of a woman than you could handle!! <ducking!> Besides we all know you do not actually want to sell that beauty!


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

It appears that folks here see the market much like as I do as one currently shopping for their next boat. As ususal, if you read the financial pundits, half say we'll just have a short down turn, and half say it will be longer and deeper than expected, but there is no argument we are in a slow down. That probably bouys the hopes of sellers, while it weighs on the minds of buyers like myself.

That said, used boat prices generally go one way and there is ample evidence that consumers are snapping their wallets shut at least for the time being. Unfortunately, if you need to sell in that environment the buyer holds the cards. Rejecting offers through the sailing season will cost you in storage and insurance fees and the boat gets another model year older. I can understand a seller deciding to be happy with what they have and taking the boat off the market, but I can't understand the many, many owners who let their boats sit through a sailing season (or more) and never seem to consider that they will have to drop the price to sell the boat.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

artbyjody said:


> Besides we all know you do not actually want to sell that beauty!


Got that right! Surprisingly, I don't have a come back for the rest.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

bestfriend said:


> Got that right! Surprisingly, I don't have a come back for the rest.


MLS- I agree about not letting the boat sit. I have a four month contract at the sales dock. If she doesn't sell, I will put her back in a slip in a nearby marina and sail, sail, sail. They can keep her on YW, but I want to use her!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

If an owner is NOT going to sell their boat, why not clean it out to lease it to a local yacht club and make some money$ to pay the slip fees? At least someone will get some good out the ownership and the boat systems will be taken care of in the long run. If the sailors in that yacht club realize their training boat is for sale - they could become a potential customer...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> why not clean it out to lease it to a local yacht club and make some money$ to pay the slip fees?


I could understand someone doing that with their wife, but their boat ???? Boats are sacred !


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## petmac (Feb 27, 2007)

*Best Boats*

Quote by Sailormann above : "You will find the best boats here" . With all due respect I have to disagree with you. Best used boats are in Maine. Yes they are in a salt water environment but the level of maintenance is much higher. There are many excellent boatyards along the coast. Maine=Boats.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The reason the northern boats MAY be in better shape is because you use them a whole 3 months out of the year then wrap them and store them away. But us poor unfortunate souls down here in saltwater filled Florida use our boats all year round while you folks sit around a fire and dream about us


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

*BITE ME!!!*

 As my portagee friend would say: BASTARDO SUJO.


Schuckerman said:


> The reason the northern boats MAY be in better shape is because you use them a whole 3 months out of the year then wrap them and store them away. *But us poor unfortunate souls down here in saltwater filled Florida use our boats all year round while you folks sit around a fire and dream about us*


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## Insails (Sep 6, 2006)

When you are born and raised in the south you are told all your life by northerners how much better everything they have is and how stupid we are...Then they all move south because they ruined the north and want to change us to what they ruined ....go figure..


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## TAK (Jul 14, 2003)

With fuel prices crossing $4.50 a gallon, I am glad I own a sailboat and not a powerboat like the 50 foot Searay down the dock from me that burns 34 gallons an hour... I suspect that the sailboat market will see a bit of boost from high fuel costs and people opting for sail over power. That said, right now it may be a buyers market for the average boat but good boats well maintained will always sell for a premium.


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## Gramp34 (Oct 5, 2006)

TAK said:


> I suspect that the sailboat market will see a bit of boost from high fuel costs and people opting for sail over power.


It's happened before. Look at all the 1970s sailboats still around from the boom after the 73 oil embargo. Even Bayliner got into sailboats:

"Beginning in 1974, the firm also built sailboats. Yes. Sailboats. "It was after the oil embargo drove up the cost of fuel. Our competitors called them the 'tilted Hilton,' grins Edson. "It was called the 'Buccaneer,' a roomy 24-foot sailboat. We made several models and it sold well through our powerboat dealers."​
In fact, the price of fuel was such a motivating factor that people actually paid good money for Bayliner Buccaneers!


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## zmountainman (Dec 14, 2008)

I would like to reopen this thread. Times have changed a lot since last May and the economy worse that most of us suspected. Fortunately for us, we are in a good cash position and are expecting things to continue down until the end of 09. I would appreciate input as to what is happening with the market in different areas. We wil be purchasing a 3 cabin in the 47 -50 range that is rigged (or mostly rigged) for blue water. We think we should find something great in the $225K range.


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## Elzaar (Aug 18, 2005)

Z -

I'm with you on re-opening the thread. It'd be kind of interesting especially given the ability to compare it to last year's beliefs.

I'm no boat market expert, but my observations here in Seattle is that prices have come down a bit, but not much. On the otherhand, our housing market has only recently begun to slip and the forecasts are it will not get anywhere near as bad as most places have gotten. The past few months have seen the beginning of big layoffs for us and boat prices will likely start to drop a bit as a result.

I have been watching boat prices on YW for the past 18 months or so primarily in the PNW, West Coast, and Great Lakes regions with occassional checks of Mexico and Carib. My completely anecdotal interpretation would be that listing prices on the types of boats I am interested in (less than $110K capable of bluewater) have dropped at least 10%, probably closer to 20%, over the past 18 months with an obvious jolt about six months ago (not including PNW). Some boats have held their higher listing price, but most of those haven't moved. It appears that many of the boats that do sell either sell quickly (very rare and probably well priced to begin with for their quality) or drop their price by at least 20% and sometimes then sell within a few weeks of that. 

It would be good to get some input from people more associated directly with the market to see what is really happening. I completely understand folks that don't want to sell their boat for less than they feel it's worth. OTOH I would like to go back and sell my house 18 months ago and it'd help if I could go back and sell my mutual funds about then, too, but I can't - and ultimately that is what decides whether I buy a boat and what I can pay for it. Unfortunately, owning a boat and sailing away is a luxury and as such it will nearly always get axed before basic living requirements like food and shelter. 

So, my opinion anyway, boat prices can't help but trend downward as people who have to sell their boat are forced to do so and as lenders begin to flood the market with boats they have repossessed and now want to sell to cover what they have into them. I'm blessed to have a recession-proof job, but most folks right now are struggling to hold onto just what they've got. Other folks who are unfortunately forced to sell in that market will more often than not have to lower their price to be competitive. Just like my stocks, if you don't need to sell right now, you probably shouldn't. Then again, a year from now, I may wish that I had. 

Just my opinion.


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## zmountainman (Dec 14, 2008)

Thanks for your feedback. 
My observations are similar but think that the used yachts on the west coast tend to be about 10-15% higher than elsewhere in the US. Since I am in the Middle East now, I am watching the Med market as well but it seems to be holding its own better and appears higher than the east coast/Caribbean market.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

According to a broker I know here in NC, sail is selling, power is dead except for trawlers.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I think one of the reasons sail is doing better than power is the cost of fuel the last two seasons really was a rude awakening for many boaters. Right now, it is basically a buyer's market more than it has been for a long time. Many people are selling due to a change in their financial situation and need to sell, rather than selling in order to upgrade. This puts an undue pressure on them to sell the boat, even if they have to accept less money than they’d like for it.


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## Trimmer (Sep 26, 2006)

I thought about selling my US 25, but $5000 would only get me through one month. That's not a very good trade in my book. Work's slow, but the boat's the last to go! Let's say that again in unison! Sailing is the only meds I need. Doh and beer.:laugher


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## BoxedUp (Nov 22, 2006)

Sailormann said:


> So, while the boats are good and the maintenance is conscientious, they are fighting a losing battle against the corrosive minerals in the salt water, and much as their women do, the boats age prematurely.


You're not married, are you?



Sailormann said:


> Unfortunately, the women do not pickle successfully - no matter how much wood is used  .


Try potent potables, I hear it works well...



Sailormann said:


> They are by and large owned by Republicans, a unique life form to date unknown outside the lower contiguous 10 "states". Republicanism, a zealotry which typically manifests itself as an expression of regressionist political thought, has the unfortunate side-effect of preventing its adherents from seeing things clearly or accurately.
> 
> As can be imagined, this makes for less than ideal yacht maintenance. While the Republican may be ready, willing and able to tackle whatever job might need to be done, their myopic creed prevents them from noticing the decay around them. Hulls go unpainted, leaks magnify, and things just generally go from tolerable to unbelievable. While a normal person may be able to look two feet ahead and spot numerous areas of concern in 5 minutes, your garden variety Republican is just not able to focus that far for that long.


What are you doing with all your free time now that "W" is not POTUS?

Seriously, love your writing and rationale!


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## JohnnyGybe (Dec 19, 2008)

I've been looking at boats here in the Northwest for 3 years.

The big reason for price difference between the PNW and the SE is that all those boats you see listed in Florida and Texas that are priced lower than the west coast variety have taken a beating from sun, hi temps and humidity.
The boats you find of similar vintage on the west coast tend to be in better shape over all.
A VREY general observation but valid in specific applications.


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## zmountainman (Dec 14, 2008)

*still watching the market*

Its been awhile since any postings occurred on this topic. 
We have found that the Island Packets, Tayana, and Morgans in the 37 to 42 foot range of 1990 vintage have dropped quite a bit esp in the gulf and east coast. I recently visited Vancouver and they remain very proud of their yachts...about 20% higher boat for boat.

Deflation may be bad overall but its good for those of us making a big buy.

We are going to do a lot of traveling to look at boats in the new year and make the jump around 1March.

Cheers.
RD


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## rugila (Jul 5, 2007)

A couple of years ago I was interested in prices of sailboats between 37’ and 40’ made between 1980 to 2002, and particularly in what cost what, and where.

First thought (naturally enough??) was to consider buying locally, but then - given the large amount of info on the internet - the whole world beckoned. I rather liked the idea of sailing anything suitable from anywhere to anywhere.

So I downloaded details on about 2000 yachts from yachtworld.com and did a statistical analysis (factorial regression with about 120 parameters if anyone interested) to try to evaluate the effects of location (East USA, BVI, Spain, Croatia etc) and of boat design/make (Shannon, Najad, Beneteau, Hunter, Moody etc) on brokers’ yachtworld asking prices. Also took account of length and age of boat.

Results I guess were interesting enough. The bigger and newer boats obviously had higher asking prices. The models with highest asking prices out of those I considered were Hallberg-Rassy, Nauticat and Najad. Lowest asking prices for Bavaria, Roberts and Elan. About 40 other models in between these.

Average price all for boats on the download list was $150,000US. Average for Hallberg-Rassy was $280,000 and for Bavaria $80,000. Most expensive areas were Germany, Sweden and Australia/NZ. Cheapest were Caribbean and eastern Med. viz. the main charter areas.

Other effects on asking prices not taken account of by this are tax, boat maintenance and equipment etc. Personally I’d rather use my own judgment to assess these rather than statistical analysis.

Addressing what seem to be major points of this thread, I reckon that brokers seemed (at least in August 2007) to be asking an average of about $25,000 more for otherwise comparable boats in Canada than they did in the US. Also, it would be easy enough, although I haven’t done it, to do a similar exercise today to see how or if Yachtworld asking prices have changed, up or down, over the past two years.

I tried posting a bit of this stuff (for general info) once before but SD didn’t seem to like it very much. Better luck this time maybe?

Robin


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## anemoneii (Jul 7, 2000)

Asking price have not come down much, but they are still selling most of the boats from 2007!

I bought a boat this year for half of the asking price on Yachtworld and the asking price was a bit lower than many similar boats.


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