# Shoal-draft pocket cruiser recommendations?



## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

Newbie here! Decades ago in my teens I sailed dinghies and beach cats on the NJ shore – now looking to get back to sailing on the Gulf and ICW near Tampa Bay and St. Petersburg, FL. 

Looking for a versatile shoal draft pocket cruiser for shallow local waters. Mostly for day-sailing initially, much of that single-handed or with inexperienced “crew,” with a few overnights and weekends (1-4 people) tossed in. Ideally, this boat would also have the capacity for longer-range coastal cruising as my skills improve – FL west coast to the Keys and Tortugas, and perhaps even to Bimini/Bahamas, and up the US east coast to mid-coast Maine. (I can dream!) 

Looking to keep LOA below 27 feet, and minimum draft as close to 2 feet as possible, and preferably even lower. My dock is half-dry at low tide (I’ll probably put in a lift and may have to dredge, which affects the budget). The boat must have a swing keel, keel/centerboard, lifting keel, dagger-board, or twin/bilge keel, etc. Boat budget is $5-10K.

While I’ve had a few opportunities to crew on 22-28’ sloops locally, most of my research to date has been on-line. There are many apparent possibilities. I hope to winnow them down by asking for comments here - particularly from those who have owned or sailed any of the boats listed below. 

More cruiser than racer (I don’t plan to race):
Catalina 22/25
Com-Pac sloops - 21/23/25, Eclipse 
Com-Pac cat boats - Horizon/Suncat
Chrysler 22/26
Morgan 24/25
O’Day 22/23/25
Precision 21/23
Rhodes 22
Tanzer 22/7.5/25
West Wight Potter 19
Westerly 22/23/25
Windrose 22/24
Yankee 24 (Sea Horse or Dolphin)

More racer than cruiser (don’t mind a fast cruiser with decent accommodations):
Merit 22/25
S2 6.7/6.9/7.9
San Juan 21/23/24/26

From what I’ve read – and please don’t be offended if you own one of these – the Hunter and MacGregor/Venture boats are built a little less sturdy than I’d prefer.

Would like a low-maintenance boat that sails pretty well at all points of sail, is forgiving of operator error/inexperience, is reasonably comfortable, is fairly fast in light/moderate winds, and is sturdy enough to handle the occasional 25-40 knot winds and 5-8 foot waves that sometimes appear suddenly in the Gulf. Not looking for a boat that requires a lot of owner repairs, replacements, or add-ons (unless a prior owner has done them) – I’m not that handy.

All that being said, any comments or recommendations on any of the above? Or perhaps another boat not on the list that fits the bill? Many thanks in advance!


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## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

Take a look at the Nor'sea 27. Crosses oceans, built like a tank, and can be moved around on her trailer.


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

Thanks - but it looks like the Nor'sea 27 has a 3'10" draft - too much for local waters here.


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## rhr1956 (Dec 18, 2010)

Anytime the pocket cruiser question comes up, I like to endorse the West Wight Potter 19.


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## oysterman23 (Jul 22, 2011)

I. Acquired my Morgan 24/25 this summer and dearly love it. Steady. Positive helm. Good speed sweet temper and atleast this one is solid as stone. Admittedly getting old but though I am refitting gradually I've kept sailing from the start.and I find the cockpit well laid out..Realistically it draws 3 ft. Loaded up


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

A Marshall 22 catboat might be worth your consideration, but you'd have to look at the older models to get with $5K of your budget. You may pay more, but these boats tend to depreciate very slowly.

The Marshall 22 (10' beam, 2' draft (board up) and 5660# displacement) was made in both cat- and sloop-rigged versions. There are some examples for sale in the $15k range at CBA: Cats4Sale FALL 2012 Bulletin No.159. Catboats have stood the test of time and are relatively forgiving as long as you reef when you first think about it. They have large cockpits and make great daysailers. They are descendants of working coastal boats of over a hundred years ago and are great in light air, but can handle some pretty rough conditions that would challenge a lighter sloop like a Catalina 22 (which has half the displacement and a much narrower beam.)


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

joebeach said:


> Looking for a versatile shoal draft pocket cruiser for shallow local waters. Mostly for day-sailing initially, much of that single-handed or with inexperienced "crew," with a few overnights and weekends (1-4 people) tossed in. Ideally, this boat would also have the capacity for longer-range coastal cruising as my skills improve - FL west coast to the Keys and Tortugas, and perhaps even to Bimini/Bahamas, and up the US east coast to mid-coast Maine. (I can dream!)
> 
> Looking to keep LOA below 27 feet, and minimum draft as close to 2 feet as possible, and preferably even lower. My dock is half-dry at low tide (I'll probably put in a lift and may have to dredge, which affects the budget). The boat must have a swing keel, keel/centerboard, lifting keel, dagger-board, or twin/bilge keel, etc. Boat budget is $5-10K.
> 
> ...


You've got a good list here, but you won't find a Tanzer 25 drawing 2' or less, although it would be my choice for heading to the tortugas or bahamas of the boats on your list. Same with the westerlys,although the twin keels may solve your tidal issues.
Find the best boat on your list for $5K. No more.
Yeah, I know, you've got a $10K ceiling, but you really don't. EVERY boat you buy will want something,or you will want to throw something at it,so you gotta figure that in,and human nature rears it's ugly head because everyone always exceeds their boatbuying budget. Always. If you think you have $10K you spend $12, because well, what the hell, you're already spending $10K.

I know,I know, you're different.
Everybody thinks they are.
Plus there all sorts of sneaky hidden costs like tax and registration and trailer bearings and Murphy has his shopping list too. This is your first boat- you need to have an "oh, fudge" fund because you will quickly discover that cheap stuff floatsm but expensive stuff sinks when it falls off your boat. And it will.
The difference between a great first sailing season and a lousy unfun first sailing season is that reserve budget. Getting that drowned outboard rebuilt isn't such a big deal when its' in the budget, for example.

Have fun, and we'll see you on the water.


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## doogymon (Apr 6, 2008)

Canadian Sailcraft 22.


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## gts1544 (Apr 26, 2008)

*joebeach*, Remembering that interior space increases exponentially with length in a sailboat, I would try to get as close to your maximum length as meets the rest of your criteria, and I would closely examine my criteria that is not dictated by circumstances beyond my control. Also, remember that repairs and upgrades are very expensive, so try to purchase a vessel that has as much of what you want already incorporated. gts1544 PS - I used to own a Morgan 24/25 and loved that boat, but would feel pretty cramped on her today with more than myself aboard.


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## davisr (Aug 13, 2011)

You might want to consider the Ericson 25. There is a website devoted to this boat. See especially the four-part article, "Why I Bought the Ericson 25." It covers many of the boats on your list (and more).


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## Mobnets (Apr 24, 2011)

You might consider adding Paceship PY23 keel/centerboard version to the list. I had a 1977 before moving up in size and was very happy with it. If the admiral would let me have two boats I'd still own it.

Mobnets
1973 Paceship Chance 32/28 "Westwind"


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

What about a small catamaran say a Wharram Tiki?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

TQA said:


> What about a small catamaran say a Wharram Tiki?


Interesting choice- a Tiki21 could be had for the OPs bottom budget. Not a great all-weather boat and windward performance isn't stellar, but stable and quickish.


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## Wayne25 (Jul 26, 2006)

Add a Helms 25 to your list. There is an owners forum here on Sailnet. 


















Draft 20" with 300# centerboard up. 6' with it down. 
1650# ballasted fixed keel for good tracking and stability and easy trailerling.
Sails great, we love the boat. In your price range.


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

rhr1956 said:


> Anytime the pocket cruiser question comes up, I like to endorse the West Wight Potter 19.


A good little boat - thanks.


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

TQA said:


> What about a small catamaran say a Wharram Tiki?


Thanks for the suggestion. I'm not a "self-build" guy, and the smaller Wharram designs like the Tiki 21/26/30 look a bit lean on creature comforts, but for the right person these small cats could be much fun!


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

Mobnets said:


> You might consider adding Paceship PY23 keel/centerboard version to the list. I had a 1977 before moving up in size and was very happy with it. If the admiral would let me have two boats I'd still own it.
> 
> Mobnets
> 1973 Paceship Chance 32/28 "Westwind"


Thanks. A well-regarded boat! I hadn't known they were also made with keel/cb. Will add to list.


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

Wayne25 said:


> Add a Helms 25 to your list. There is an owners forum here on Sailnet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. Read some good things about the Helms 25, but understand there are not too many around, especially in Florida. Will add to the list....

Then I'll have to start pruning it back.


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

oysterman23 said:


> I. Acquired my Morgan 24/25 this summer and dearly love it. Steady. Positive helm. Good speed sweet temper and atleast this one is solid as stone. Admittedly getting old but though I am refitting gradually I've kept sailing from the start.and I find the cockpit well laid out..Realistically it draws 3 ft. Loaded up


Thanks. Morgan lived here in St. Pete, and there's one for sale locally for $2-3K. Will have to check it out....


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

fallard said:


> A Marshall 22 catboat might be worth your consideration, but you'd have to look at the older models to get with $5K of your budget. You may pay more, but these boats tend to depreciate very slowly.
> 
> The Marshall 22 (10' beam, 2' draft (board up) and 5660# displacement) was made in both cat- and sloop-rigged versions. There are some examples for sale in the $15k range at CBA: Cats4Sale FALL 2012 Bulletin No.159. Catboats have stood the test of time and are relatively forgiving as long as you reef when you first think about it. They have large cockpits and make great daysailers. They are descendants of working coastal boats of over a hundred years ago and are great in light air, but can handle some pretty rough conditions that would challenge a lighter sloop like a Catalina 22 (which has half the displacement and a much narrower beam.)


Interesting, thanks! Don't know much about cat boats, but I did see one made by a local boat-builder, Com-Pac/Hutchins, at the St. Pete Boat Show this year. Loved the tabernacle mast; it seems the easiest possible way to set up/tear down from a trailer, and apparently it works underway for low bridges too.

Never having sailed a cat boat, can you tell me a little about how they differ, for better or worse, in speed, pointing ability, and other basic sailing characteristics from a traditional monohull sloop of similar size?

It looks like the larger cat boats are generally 17-22" LOD, and while most have only a main sail, others appear to be sloop-rigged. What are the pros/cons of having a headsail/s on a cat boat?

It also looks like many of these are wooden boats, or at least have wooden spars - that gives me pause, here in FL. They appear to be relatively wide beamed, low draft, and heavy - which leads me to believe they'd be slower craft that may not sail well windward, while perhaps otherwise solid and steady sailers. Yet you say these boats are also good in light air, which seems contradictory. (?)

Almost all catboats I've seen mentioned online are located in the Northeastern US. Any reasons for this, other than maritime tradition? Are they comfortable boats to sail and crew in hot, humid, and variable sailing conditions?

Any other insights (or links to insight) you or others could share on these or other relevant points would be very much appreciated. Thanks!


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

bljones said:


> You've got a good list here, but you won't find a Tanzer 25 drawing 2' or less, although it would be my choice for heading to the tortugas or bahamas of the boats on your list. Same with the westerlys,although the twin keels may solve your tidal issues.
> Find the best boat on your list for $5K. No more.
> Yeah, I know, you've got a $10K ceiling, but you really don't. EVERY boat you buy will want something,or you will want to throw something at it,so you gotta figure that in,and human nature rears it's ugly head because everyone always exceeds their boatbuying budget. Always. If you think you have $10K you spend $12, because well, what the hell, you're already spending $10K.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Good advice!

Depending on whether I spring for dredging, something above 2' and under 3' of draft might work. Still, the less draft, the more flexibility I'll have. There is a lot of skinny water in local grounds, which is where I'll be most of the time, and probably all of the first year or 2.

If I can get a boat that in the future can do a little near-offshoring (?) as well, that would be great, but this is more a chance to ask knowledgeable sailors about what I may not know (which is a lot!) than an expectation.

I've tried to compile a reasonably thorough list of well-regarded boats in this class (and may be adding a few to it), but I won't get a chance to sail all of them, or even a decent fraction of them. Availability will count, and for boats further afield shipping costs need to be factored in as well. But I wanted to make sure I had a decent list, so that when an opportunity arises I will (A) recognize it, and (B) have done enough background research to be able to move quickly if needed.

Thanks again!


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

doogymon said:


> Canadian Sailcraft 22.


Thanks. Hadn't heard of it before (noob, remember), but it looks like a nice boat.


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

gts1544 said:


> *joebeach*, Remembering that interior space increases exponentially with length in a sailboat, I would try to get as close to your maximum length as meets the rest of your criteria, and I would closely examine my criteria that is not dictated by circumstances beyond my control. Also, remember that repairs and upgrades are very expensive, so try to purchase a vessel that has as much of what you want already incorporated. gts1544 PS - I used to own a Morgan 24/25 and loved that boat, but would feel pretty cramped on her today with more than myself aboard.


Yes. Excellent points. Thanks!


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

davisr said:


> You might want to consider the Ericson 25. There is a website devoted to this boat. See especially the four-part article, "Why I Bought the Ericson 25." It covers many of the boats on your list (and more).


A very nice boat, but if I'm reading about the right one, its draft approaches 4 feet. Too much for my local waters, unfortunately. Thanks for the suggestion, though.


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## davisr (Aug 13, 2011)

joebeach said:


> A very nice boat, but if I'm reading about the right one, its draft approaches 4 feet. Too much for my local waters, unfortunately. Thanks for the suggestion, though.


You must have happend upon a fixed keel Ericson 25. There are only a handful of those. The majority of Ericson 25s are centerboard boats with specs that fit your search parameters.

It's also possible that you looked at an Ericson 25+, which is a different hull altogether from the Ericson 25.


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

davisr said:


> You must have happend upon a fixed keel Ericson 25. There are only a handful of those. The majority of Ericson 25s are centerboard boats with specs that fit your search parameters.
> 
> It's also possible that you looked at an Ericson 25+, which is a different hull altogether from the Ericson 25.


Yes - thanks. I see an Ericson 25 CB, with a minimum 2' draft, as well as a 23-2 CB, both on saildata. Will add these to the list as well.


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## Tallswede (Jul 18, 2012)

I think you may be making a mistake not looking at the water balasted Hunters (23.4, 240, 260). I think they are built as well as the Catalinas. I looked at a lot of boats before buying my 23.5. Centerboard up is 18" draft. Much nicer interior than Catalina 22s I've seen and much bigger cockpit for lounging in at anchor. As long as you reef early it sails well (no racer) but fun and makes good progress. Light air sailing I can keep up with larger boats and motors well with my 8 hp outboard. I would not do bluewater cruising in it of course but with the right weather window would not hesitate to sail it to the Bahamas. Main drawback is lack of dedicated storage space. The interior is opened up so much you have to get creative with storage. Just some thing to think about.

Kevin


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

I looked into Catboats and fell in love with the atlantic City Catboat 24. One of the bigger catboats about and has full standing room below decks.. and then I started reading about their cruising abilities on the ocean and went scurrying off to look at sloops.

The main problems I found was the "frightening" gyb a catboat can do. Figure that long boom is about the same length as the boat itself. That is a lot of mass when it gets swinging from one side to the other.

The other was when running before the wind, it is too easy to dump the boom and sail into the water. Once you do that, you are one step from swimming. Like said above, if you take a reef in the moment you think about it, that might help some, but a boom that hangs 20 feet off of the side of the boat can easily catch a good swell


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

I sailed an 18' catboat for 15 years and remain impressed with their ability to deal with adverse conditions. I was also familiar with a fellow who owned an AC 24 who sailed and raced it in our area (coastal SE New England) and he absolutely loved it. He even took it to the Chesapeake shortly before he passed away. I was even considering an AC 24 before I found my swing keel 35 ft sloop 17 years ago.

You are correct that you don't want to gybe a catboat in higher winds, but, that said, I have watched catboats gybe in one race where the winds hit 30 knots. Several of the catboats deliberately gybed coming around the mark to the downwind leg. Two of them ended up with what we called a "gooseneck gybe", wherein the boom lifts high as it comes around and--this case--ripped the sail. A third (single-handed by a 75 yr.old woman) actually broke the gooseneck fitting. These 3 boats withdrew from the race at that point.

These were not accidental gybes, but what I would call "hotdogging" in race mode. Usually you have plenty of warning of an impending gybe and can react in time. I find my sloop is quicker to gybe than my old catboat. When you gybe in higher winds in a catboat, what can happen is that the momentum of the boom, along with the tendency of a catboat to head up when overpowered, is that the catboat will do just that and you will keep turning and head up. It actually is quite funny to watch when a catboat sailor does this in the heat of a race!

During that same race, I shook out a reef at 20 kts, just before the winds picked up to 30 kts. Big mistake! Not willing to go forward to reef at that point, I continued with full sail, using a fisherman's reef (ease the mainsheet and let the sail flog a bit) which is not good for the sail. Being in last place, I went through the wind at that downwind mark and --being overpowered--used a standard catboat trick when caught in this situation, which is to "scandalize". That is, to drop the gaff. You immediately dump the wind from about 2/3 of the sail and move the center of effort lower and closer to the centerline.

When you inevitably get caught in conditions you'd rather not be in, you learn a lot about your boat. What I've learned about catboats is that they are extremely stable and safe. You typically cannot get the rail down. As the catboat becomes overpowered it heads up with a weather helm that takes over. The wide beam also provides the form stability to keep you on your feet, which makes it harder to get your boom in the water. Besides, catboats don't have vangs and the boom tends to be raised when you are running in a breeze. The picture below shows an 80 yr. old, double-reefed 22ft Crosby cat running downwind in what looks like about a 20 kt+ breeze. I have never had a problem with the boom snagging the water when running and I've sailed the 18 footer in an area bounded by Wickford, RI, to Block Island to Shelter Island.

The catboat design was a day in , day out work boat that had to be reasonably well-behaved and easily managed over a variety of conditions. Those mannerisms are maintained in the fiberglass replicas you see today. They are not blue water boats, primarily due to the large cockpits (you don't want to get pooped in a catboat).

I'll be downsizing one of these days and would consider going back to an 18-22 ft catboat. That 75 yr.old lady who sailed her 18 ft catboat in 30 kts is my role model--not that I would deliberately go out in 30 kts!


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

If you can find one.. have you considered an Oysterman 23? modeled after the Skipjacks of the chesapeake, they sail fine in 20 inches of water with the board up and 6' with it down


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

Mad-m and Fallard, thanks for your discussion on sailing cat boats - "fishermans' reefing" and "scandalizing" are new nautical terms for me. 

And mad-m, thanks as well for your reference to the Oysterman 23 skipjack. Found a 2011 sailnet thread on that boat here:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/75576-menger-oysterman-23-a.html

Sounds like the original Oysterman 23 builder from the 1980s, Bill Menger, has retired or gone out of business, and that the molds have been purchased by Thompson Boatworks in Long Island. These boats were few in number and apparently are not easy to find - but they are pretty to look at and (it's said) salty as well, so I'll keep an eye peeled.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Bill Menger passed away a number of years ago. He also built catboats, including a 23' using a Sweisguth hull design that had decent interior accommodations, but was not as roomy as the AC24.


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

davisr said:


> You might want to consider the Ericson 25. There is a website devoted to this boat. See especially the four-part article, "Why I Bought the Ericson 25." It covers many of the boats on your list (and more).


Roscoe - 
Didn't get around to googling your website until tonight. You've offered a thorough and informative review of your boat search and buying story. Great pix too - thanks!

Your search involved many boats I've also been considering. Obviously you've found your boat and you love her, and in the past few years you've apparently put a lot of thought and love into her keep. I appreciate your insights and your passion. 

Though our main foci differ (trailerability is not a prime criterion for me, as it is for you), we have important search priorities in common. My prime considerations are for a boat that moves well in light air, sails well on all points, is easily single-handed, reasonably priced, and is an able gunk-holer, initially for daysailing and weekend cruising in local bays and the Gulf. For me this translates to a keel/centerboard of 23-27' LOA that while not a true blue water boat is still solid enough to take a blow, is modest yet comfortable, and has a certain solid, graceful, traditional, salty aesthetic. Beyond that, it's all about fit and feel.

I've taken my armchair research as far as I can for now, and I've moved on to the process of getting onto as many different boats (OPBs) as I can.

There seem to be deals galore on boats every week, but I'm in no rush. Sooner or later, like you, I'll come across a boat that I know will be (nearly) perfect for me.

BTW thanks to all who made suggestions in this thread. You brought to my attention some great boats that I never would have considered or even known about, without your taking the time and effort to post. You've all helped further my understanding greatly. Many thanks, and even if we never meet, I hope one day to pay it forward. SN is awesome. Best to you all!


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## davisr (Aug 13, 2011)

joebeach said:


> Roscoe -
> Didn't get around to googling your website until tonight. You've offered a thorough and informative review of your boat search and buying story. Great pix too - thanks!
> 
> Your search involved many boats I've also been considering. Obviously you've found your boat and you love her, and in the past few years you've apparently put a lot of thought and love into her keep. I appreciate your insights and your passion.
> ...


Joe,

Many thanks for the compliments on my website, and best of luck in your search. As you suggested, I think you'll know your lady when you see her.

Best regards,
Roscoe

ericson 25 dot com


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## mattnj (Feb 19, 2008)

Take a look at a Neptune 24 made by Capitol Yachts. Very stout boat that draws 18" with center board up. It has a pop top that gives over 6' headroom. We have had ours since new and love it. We have gone to Catalina Island in it and all over the Sea of Cortez. Always impressed with how tough it is and how much room is squeezed into this size of a boat.


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