# I NEED EXPERT ADVICE on wooden sailing boat!



## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

Hello everybody,

I NEED EXPERT ADVICE on wooden sailing boat!

I am aware of the work which will be involved with wooden boats, but I have a concern:

I am considering buying:

a 24 ft Koster made in Sweden 1960

Hull is made of: Mahogany on oak (Carvel build)
The boat was kept in the same family for many, many years ( around 25 years)

Under the waterline the boat is having a plastic / (according to the owner) a thick epoxy coating and when I looked at it, feels like a thick flexible rubber coating. This was applied 15 years ago. The owner also told me that every year the upper edge along the waterline, needs to be checked, because the edge might loosen a little, just only a few mm. but needs to be re-glued with epoxy glue in order to avoid this going any further.

(Image 1, see link below to my gallery)

This means, the hull under the waterline is completely sealed and should not let any water coming through.

After scraping the hull above the waterline (the freeboards), the owner applied a varnish called Coelan (one of the most expensive on the market) which is a Polyurethane varnish. Of course the inside of the hull is not varnished at all so the hull is able to breath.

With this type of carvel build boat, it's not unusual that in the beginning of the sailing season (after the winter) some water will get through the freeboards when the wood is very dry. The owner told me that this is happening.

This is not my major concern!

Next point:

The cockpit is not self bailing. Any water from rain (fresh water) or (salt) water coming in whilst sailing flows via the drain holes in the cockpit floor boards over the inside of the hull to the lowest part of the hull just above the keel.

(Image 10 + 14) see link below to my gallery)

The boat is having (of course) a manual bilge pump and an electrical bilge pump, from which the last one will be automatically activated the moment water is detected above the keel on the inside of the boat.

I know, it's normal for wooden boats to have water in this place. The boat is in the baltic (Stockholm area) , so it is in (cold) salt water (but the baltic is not as salty as the Atlantic or North sea!)

My Major concern:

Since the boat is completely sealed on the outside and fresh water is able to get inside when it rains, unless I use a cover for the cockpit, I just wonder if this part is not going to give me in the future major worries. But have to say: after 15 years with the coating on the outside, nothing seems to be rot.

I checked all the wood on the inside. All seems to be OK, except a tiny piece of wood supporting the floor boards, which feels soft, but this part is above the water, when there is water inside the hull, above the keel.

At the very bottom above the keel (deepest point) below the cabin floor boards, where usually some water is, also the wood still feels very hard, but some of the red-lead paint is peeling off and bare wood from the hull is exposed, so this part of the hull will be easily soaked with a combination of slightly salt water from the baltic (coming in during sailing via cockpit and freeboards) and fresh rain water.

Is this really going to be a main concern? Or what do I need to do?
Have to get the boat back on the land, scrape all the paint on the inside of the bottom of the hull just above the keel away, let it dry for a whole winter season and paint it next spring with red-lead paint, or apply an epoxy?

Or could I use the boat this summer season for sailing and tackle the issue after?

Or not to buy the boat at all?

here are all the images:

July2-2010

many thanks in advance for any advice!

Best regards,

Udo


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## xsboats (Oct 2, 2007)

Until you are able to haul the boat and repaint the bilges, you could scatter some rock salt in the bilge in the areas where the water accumulates to increase it's saline level. This will help prevent rot spores that may be carried in from growing in the fresh water. Copper napthenate, found in fence post and wood deck [house] preservative , can also be brushed or sprayed with an orchard sprayer in these areas. It will kill spores on contact, penetrate the wood, and kill spores which end up there in the future.


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

Thanks! That came to my mind as well!

Boat is 50 years old, 15 years having the coating outisde, still not rot, so probably the boat is OK,


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

That is one beautiful boat my friend!


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## Gene T (May 23, 2006)

It surprises me that the cockpit is not self draining, especially since this boat was built prior to automatic bilge pumps. 

There are few people that realize the work involved in repairing a wooden vessel. Fastenings need to be changes, rot needs to be found and repaired. A well cared for vessel is a good start but having a knowledgeable surveyor check it out would be a must. 

I owned a wood boat 30 years ago that was built about when yours was and it was a lot of work back then. 

Just be certain you understand what you are getting yourself into if you do this. 

Gene


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

Every year I see in Sweden some nice wooden boats coming up for sale.

These were the one's I was looking at last year, but very often the outside cockpit is very small with these classic designs and this length of boat, 
The first one is amazing, but the cockpit way to small for 2 adults and a child. Pity, otherwise I would have bought it last year.

http://dev.colourcertainty.co.uk/01Images/Sweden-Sailing-Boats/Tärneflu/
Koster01
Koster02


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

Thanks Gene, don't mind a bit of work for as long the boat it worth it. 

Many people tell me to find an expert. If the expert would cost me 20% of the Purchase price, would it be worth it? That's a difficult question,

Udo


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

Gene, I will check again on the self draining issue of the cockpit, but indeed, surprises me as well, because the boat was advertised as sea worthy and for that you need self draining.

Udo


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## Gene T (May 23, 2006)

udoma said:


> Thanks Gene, don't mind a bit of work for as long the boat it worth it.
> 
> Many people tell me to find an expert. If the expert would cost me 20% of the Purchase price, would it be worth it? That's a difficult question,
> 
> Udo


That is difficult to answer as it depends on how much of an expert you are. If the cost of the boat is low and you have the time and abilities to work on it yourself then you will learn as you go. You don't really buy an old wooden boat, you adopt one. They should be given away to people who have the resources to restore and keep them alive because some are truly works of art.

Some people enjoy working on their boats more than actually sailing them. It can be a great hobby but you need to figure out if you are one of those people.

Gene


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## Gene T (May 23, 2006)

If you haven't already you should look up all posts by CharlieCobra. He restores wooden boats for a living. 

Gene


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

Gene T said:


> That is difficult to answer as it depends on how much of an expert you are. If the cost of the boat is low and you have the time and abilities to work on it yourself then you will learn as you go. You don't really buy an old wooden boat, you adopt one. They should be given away to people who have the resources to restore and keep them alive because some are truly works of art.
> 
> Some people enjoy working on their boats more than actually sailing them. It can be a great hobby but you need to figure out if you are one of those people.
> 
> Gene


You are here 100% right! Also interesting is: The boat is like a family member to the owners and they prefer it to be taken by someone who can!

Udo


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## WanderingStar (Nov 12, 2008)

I've owned many wooden boats, three of them over 20'. One of them had been fiberglassed for at least 20 years. Many in the wooden boat community fear thick coatings over planking. If she doesn't have problems now, don't worry too much about it. You should at least contact a surveyor to find out what he would charge. Or find an experienced friend to look her over with you. If there is no rot, and the fastenings are sound, she's good. There are many good theories and practices in maintenance, use what works in your area on your boat.


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

WanderingStar said:


> I've owned many wooden boats, three of them over 20'. One of them had been fiberglassed for at least 20 years. Many in the wooden boat community fear thick coatings over planking. If she doesn't have problems now, don't worry too much about it. You should at least contact a surveyor to find out what he would charge. Or find an experienced friend to look her over with you. If there is no rot, and the fastenings are sound, she's good. There are many good theories and practices in maintenance, use what works in your area on your boat.


Thanks for the answer,

2nd time inspection, I took on my working clothes and spend a couple of hours going through the boat and checking as much as possible every section on the inside. I did not find any rot in the hull, just some peeling off red-lead paint at the very bottom on the hull. Only a 1 cm section (not bigger) in the middle of a rib above the keel. Not the bottom part which is sometimes in the water, but only the upper part, which supports the floorboard above it + another small piece of wood, also acting as a floorboard support. These parts are probably never in the water above the keel, maybe just above it and when there is water, it will be a humid air. But that's all I could find in the deepest part of the boat. I did knock everywhere, but the wood feels hard and sound.

Udo


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## Gene T (May 23, 2006)

One big question you need to answer is how is the boat fastened. i.e what holds the wood together. The best is silicon bronze, anything else will need to be changed at some point. Not impossible by any means but time consuming and somewhat costly. Also need to check the keel bolts on a boat this old. 

Gene


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

Hello Gene,

The place were I look first is always the very bottom above the keel. Keel bolts looked surprisingly good, guess they might have been changed already? I have seen much, much rustier keel bolts inside GPR hulls!

I just only know it's mahogany on eck, with the special nails? on the ribs.
Glue? I have no idea.

Got here some more images from the boat:

July2-2010

Thanks for your feedback!

Udo


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## tomwatt (Dec 11, 2009)

Laurin Koster
This is a website devoted to the Laurin Koster boats.
They are beautiful indeed.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

udoma said:


> Hello Gene,
> 
> The place were I look first is always the very bottom above the keel. Keel bolts looked surprisingly good, guess they might have been changed already? I have seen much, much rustier keel bolts inside GPR hulls!
> 
> ...


Udoma, she's a great-looking boat and, if what you say is correct, she's in better condition than our new boat was when we bought her and you should have many years of pleasure looking after her.

It's a bit hard to see from the photos, but it looks like she has wood floors (the proper way to handle oak frames) and seems to be well designed and built.

Having been in your position only a few months ago, I'd strongly suggest your next step is to engage a surveyor to inspect the boat with you and to give you a *written report*, with costs, for anything needing repair.

A surveyor will be far more helpful to you than any of us can be at this stage, because it is difficult to spot any problems with wooden construction from photos alone.

Good luck with your purchase!


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

Hello Hartley,

Thanks for the commends.
Took the wise decision on recommendation of basically everybody to find a surveyor, and fortunately found one living just 1 mile down the road,
Someone who actually designed and build these boats himself, working in the business since the 50's! 
Will keep the forum informed,

btw: what kind of boat have you got?

Best regards,

Udo


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## tomwatt (Dec 11, 2009)

Udo, a guy on another forum I frequent has a 32' (Laurin) Koster, and it is a gorgeous boat.
The link to the Laurin Koster site I posted earlier includes a section on some of those boats built in wood, in addition to the fiberglass models. Do you know if your Koster is a Laurin-designed boat or other builder?


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

tomwatt said:


> Udo, a guy on another forum I frequent has a 32' (Laurin) Koster, and it is a gorgeous boat.
> The link to the Laurin Koster site I posted earlier includes a section on some of those boats built in wood, in addition to the fiberglass models. Do you know if your Koster is a Laurin-designed boat or other builder?


Hi Tom,

Did see the link, many thanks!

1960 Olle Enderlein Koster from 1960 24 foot.
And the expert surveyor who is going to see and inspect the boat for me, told me, that he is the actual designer and that Ollie used his design.

I don't know the builder, hope the owners know.

It's not from Avid Laurin. Last year I did consider a boat build by a student from Avid laurin. Amazing boat, but the cockpit was way too small for me, but very clean boat inside and out:

Have a look here if you like:

http://dev.colourcertainty.co.uk/01Images/Sweden-Sailing-Boats/Tärneflu/

Last year there was also a boat on the market and I guess it was from Laurin himself, or at least one of the very famous boat designers here in Sweden:

Koster01

You need to have patience, but if you have, you can sometimes pick-up amazing wooden boats at bargain prices.

Best regards,

Udo


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## tomwatt (Dec 11, 2009)

Nice! Thanks Udo, but I'm probably a better candidate for a "plastic" boat than a wooden one, as much as I'd like one. I would hate to have a wooden beauty and not be able to care for her properly.
There are a couple of fiberglass Kosters around, some apparently in very good shape, so I'm sure when I'm ready to make the purchase that the boat I want will come find me.
"koster" means "canoe stern", right?


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

tomwatt said:


> Nice! Thanks Udo, but I'm probably a better candidate for a "plastic" boat than a wooden one, as much as I'd like one. I would hate to have a wooden beauty and not be able to care for her properly.
> There are a couple of fiberglass Kosters around, some apparently in very good shape, so I'm sure when I'm ready to make the purchase that the boat I want will come find me.
> "koster" means "canoe stern", right?


Speaking about classic boats in plastic?

here I found a really good example. If I had the money, i definitely would consider it!

Mälartrettia - m30/129 | Stockholm | Blocket

Udo


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

udoma said:


> Hello Hartley,
> 
> Thanks for the commends.
> Took the wise decision on recommendation of basically everybody to find a surveyor, and fortunately found one living just 1 mile down the road,
> ...


This one. 

Bungoona | Classic Yacht Association Australia


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## xsboats (Oct 2, 2007)

I, like Gene T , am concerned about the ability of the cockpit to drain over the side. Aside from the fact that this presents an issue as far as seaworthiness , it is also a source of freshwater into the bilge. This introduces rot spores into the boat. I would want to make sure that the cockpit drained into a designated sump with it's own float switch and bilge pump if the waterline will not allow you to convert the cockpit to a self-bailing one.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

xsboats said:


> I, like Gene T , am concerned about the ability of the cockpit to drain over the side. Aside from the fact that this presents an issue as far as seaworthiness , it is also a source of freshwater into the bilge. This introduces rot spores into the boat. I would want to make sure that the cockpit drained into a designated sump with it's own float switch and bilge pump if the waterline will not allow you to convert the cockpit to a self-bailing one.


There's nothing "unseaworthy" about having a cockpit that doesn't self-drain *if* the design of the boat makes allowance for it - as this one seems to... but the design drawing at the bottom of the list of photos seems to show the cockpit floor above the waterline (just!).

If this is the case, there is no reason I can see that it couldn't be made to drain overside via a couple of thru-hulls. Even if the level was so close to the water-line that water came in whilst sailing (happens to us on our boat sometimes under certain wave conditions), with the bridgedeck thingy there, other than getting the skipper's feet wet, the small amount that does will not likely be an issue and will flow right back out again...

EDIT: Looking at the photos again, it seems that any water getting into the cockpit as it is now will go straight into the bilges via the cockpit lockers and the engine access hatch. If this is the case, all he needs is a boat cover, a good electric bilge pump and an occasional bag of salt...


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

Hi Guy's. This is what I am going to check and ask tomorrow with the actual boat designer himself! So I am curious about the answers from him. 

Udo


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

Hartley18 said:


> This one.
> 
> Bungoona | Classic Yacht Association Australia


Modern boas are designed for comfort, classic boats obviously for sailing!
Why are classic boats always so much more beautiful and eye catching?

btw: this website is having some really stunning classic boats for sale.

I love this one:

http://classic-yacht.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/chew8062.jpg

Udo


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## tomwatt (Dec 11, 2009)

Based on what I've read and seen researching, there is nothing unseaworthy about the koster design. They are tough little boats, larger than a folkboat, built for rough weather sailing and generally quite capable.
And this one is a real beauty.


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

tomwatt said:


> Based on what I've read and seen researching, there is nothing unseaworthy about the koster design. They are tough little boats, larger than a folkboat, built for rough weather sailing and generally quite capable.
> And this one is a real beauty.


Tomorrow I will meet, speak and check with the designer the boat, indeed the designer of this boat and ask him all about it,

Udo


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

udoma said:


> Modern boas are designed for comfort, classic boats obviously for sailing!
> Why are classic boats always so much more beautiful and eye catching?
> 
> btw: this website is having some really stunning classic boats for sale.
> ...


I'm sure you would recognise it - it's a Tumlaren. 

We have a small fleet of them here and, yes, they are beautiful boats to both look at and to sail.. (and, yes, I think this one is still for sale)


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

Guess I am not experienced enough to sail it around the globe back to me in Sweden! But many nice classic's on this site!

Udo


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

Being a long time wood boat owner, as long as the ribs, floors. planking and keel are good from the inside you're probably not going to have problems. I've not seen a boat with that particular coating on it but generally boats rot from the inside out. 
As Hartley says not having a self draining cockpit is not a big issue for coastal sailing. You have to determine your comfort level if going offshore. (Adlard Coles took his Tumlaren offshore several times - and in "Heavy Weather")

Let us know how it goes with talking to the designer.


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

I did find out from the owner what the outside coating is all about:
a hard shell fibre glass epoxy coating. Curious what the surveyor (and designer) of the boat is going to say tomorrow morning.


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

udoma said:


> I did find out from the owner what the outside coating is all about:
> a hard shell fibre glass epoxy coating. Curious what the surveyor (and designer) of the boat is going to say tomorrow morning.


Glass and epoxy is pretty common- There may have been persisitent leaks  (the usual reason for "glassing" a boat). You should ask the owner why he glassed the bottom.
Check the fasteners. Bad fasteners allow the planking to work (move) giving rise to leaking.


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

I am afraid, I have not got the experience and physical condition to sail these beauthies from Australia back to Sweden.

Love to be able to do that!

Cheers,

Udo


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

udoma said:


> I am afraid, I have not got the experience and physical condition to sail these beauthies from Australia back to Sweden.
> 
> Love to be able to do that!
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone would be silly enough to suggest sailing a Tum half-way around the world. They only make Category 7 safety here and have no floatation. One decent wave over the stern and they go down like a stone..

As far as your purchase goes, if the keel bolts are okay, it'd be the glassed hull I'd be focussing on. In my experience, fibreglass sheathing shortens the life of a wooden hull to only a few years whilst the timbers slowly rot out from the inside - but if it's been done properly (the Surveyor will know this) it should not be a problem for you.


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

Hartley18 said:


> I don't think anyone would be silly enough to suggest sailing a Tum half-way around the world. They only make Category 7 safety here and have no floatation. One decent wave over the stern and they go down like a stone..
> 
> As far as your purchase goes, if the keel bolts are okay, it'd be the glassed hull I'd be focussing on. In my experience, fibreglass sheathing shortens the life of a wooden hull to only a few years whilst the timbers slowly rot out from the inside - but if it's been done properly (the Surveyor will know this) it should not be a problem for you.


Just to let everybody know. We had today an inspection from the inside of the boat by the surveyor.

He found no rot at all on the inside. The previous time I dried the bilge completely, but we did see more water back in again. So we suspect some water coming in from in between the wooden hull and keel via the keel bolts. It was so minor, that the surveyor did not see this as a problem.

By looking at the gabs between the planks in the hull above the waterline, which allow water to come through during sailing (not much but still al little bit, he suspected that this could be the reason why the previous owner had put fibre glass sheeting on the hull under the waterline.

Overall from what was possible to see on the inside, he recommended me not to do too much work on the boat, only the things which needs to be done urgently (and that are only a few small items) and just start having fun with it.

We will have a check on the outside of the hull probably this coming weekend.

Udo


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

It's good to hear there is no rot - obviously rain-water entry has not been a problem in the past.



udoma said:


> .....
> Overall from what was possible to see on the inside, he recommended me not to do too much work on the boat, only the things which needs to be done urgently (and that are only a few small items) and just start having fun with it.


That is good advice right there.

Keep us posted!


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

Got here a message from another expert and he seems to be not very enthusiastic about this boat:

Udo, you'll find a reoccurring theme among experienced wooden boat owners, here and the other places you've posted.

Again, regardless of what your surveyor is telling you (he may be giving you just what he's being paid to give you) if the boat shows gaps and light at her seams, she's in need of repairs, recaulking at the very least, probably considerably more (refastening, planking replacement, etc.)

In the end, as I and others have mentioned, the bottom of the hull is 'glassed over for a reason, which 99% of the time is to stave off the proper repairs it needs. The topside planking is showing you what it needs, the bottom is very likely in similar condition, except it has a plastic skin hiding it for the time being.

In short, carvel planking is a consumable item, just like an automotive oil filter, it wears out and needs to be replaced. During the life of planking, they may be repaired, refastened, recaulked, but eventually the planking is just shot. The garboards are most always the first to go, followed by the broads. Butt blocks and scarfs start to pop open and it's an ever accelerating, downward spiral after a time. When the planking gets to this stage in it's life, this is when some owners decide to 'glass the hull


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

udoma said:


> Got here a message from another expert and he seems to be not very enthusiastic about this boat:
> 
> Udo, you'll find a reoccurring theme among experienced wooden boat owners, here and the other places you've posted.
> 
> ...


Well there are things that can be done- "Splining" comes to mind. In this case each seam would be opened with a saw and a wood spline would be glued in to provide a fair surface for recaulking. It's a lot of work. It's be up to you to determine whether such a job would be worth it to you. Since the frames and keel "look" good, technically the boat would be a candidate.
The fact that the planking is "gappy" even on the topsides points to a refastening as well.

Good news is that if well done you'll probably get another 40-50 years out of it.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

I disagree that a yacht's planking should be treated as a consumable. There are yachts out there all over the world with planking well over 100 years old.

I guess that point that's missing in all of this is that, with a wooden boat, you can at least fix things that need fixing, whereas there are limits on a plastic boat where, because it's moulded in a factory in the first instance, after a point it is no longer economical to repair.

As far as splining goes, for what it's worth, here's what my boat looked like whilst this one being done:

















It's no biggie..


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

The surveyor told me that we need, in order to get a full picture of the boat, take it out of the water.

I decided to buy the boat, but of course on the condition that the boat is described as per the advertisement.

Description of the boat in the advert:
The boat is completely dry (from underneath) because of the fibre glass sheeting.

The owner told me verbally:
Only water coming in via the hull above the waterline and rain water via the cockpit

However, I found out that water is coming from underneath as well, probably from in between the keel and the wooden hull via the keel bolts.* This should in principle not have to be a problem, but we MUST find out if the plastic fibre glass epoxy sheeting is actually OK, and sticking well to the wooden hull.

If I find out any more (big) problems (not mentioned by the owner) when the boat is out of the water, I definitely would re-consider.

The owner asked me if I want to get the boat out of the water for to evaluate what work needs to be done, or, if it's for to re-consider buying it at all. If it's for re-consideration, he told me that he was going to put it back on the market. btw: The advert was never taken away in the first place, I spend a lot of time to inspect to boat several times and spend money on the surveyor, the pressure on top of it makes me extremely uncomfortable.

So, I am close to walking away.


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## tomwatt (Dec 11, 2009)

Udo, I'll keep my fingers crossed that you do the right thing, whichever it turns out to be. It's a beautiful boat. But not worth having if it's going to be a major problem as soon as you get it.


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

tomwatt said:


> Udo, I'll keep my fingers crossed that you do the right thing, whichever it turns out to be. It's a beautiful boat. But not worth having if it's going to be a major problem as soon as you get it.


Thanks Tom, We all have our dreams, (having nice boats) but we also have to look at the reality. if the hull is really like a ziff, a cheese full of holes, have to think twice!

Cheers,

Udo


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

OK, what we did find out is:

1.* From the inside NO woodrot at all.
2.* Planks fittings to the rib's are also really OK
3. Inspection on the outside not done yet.


4.* But, to get the hull above the waterline also water tight, it looks like that corking will not be sufficient and the seems need to be cut open with a saw and pieces of spline wood needs to be glued in.** That will be a massive job for sure.

Question:* Will the life-span of the boat be influenced a lot if we always get some water in via the hull above the waterline, or will it be only inconvenient?

(This of course under the condition that my surveyor is not finding any other major problems on the outside of the hull and the boat is really healthy on all major points)

That's one of the very last questions I guess (and hope)

Udo


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## Gene T (May 23, 2006)

A wood boat is generally glassed over when there is a problem. For me that would make the boat worth less not more. The leak you describe would bother me a lot as it means there is a breach in the glass bottom which would allow the wood around it to rot. It may be difficult to examine that area because the glass is there. 

I am a little biased having owned 4 large boats now with the first one being wood. You can easily sink 2 to 3 times more than the boat is worth while working on it. If you do all the work yourself it can be rewarding although not necessarily cheap, if you plan to hire it done I would run as fast as you can. Chock up the cost of the surveyors to education and find something else. Lots of boats out there. Whatever you do try to relax and look at it objectivly. Maybe it's your boat, sometimes it just works out that way. 

And by all means let us know how it works out.

Gene


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I would say, RUN, don't walk the other way from this boat. Having owned and restored a number of wooden boats, this sounds like the perfect formula for disaster. To understand this you need to understand how wooden boats work. 

Wooden boat construction varies very widely, but when you talk about a small, carvel planked yacht, they were designed to work in specific ways and have a specific lifespan and maintenance cycle. When wooden boats were common, pretty extensive long term maintenance was anticipated. This typically included recaulking, and refastening. On a small yacht, you could only do so many recaulks and refastenings before the boat needed to be replanked and perhaps reframed. That was the norm and not the exception. 

You need to understand that caulking does a lot more than just keep the water out. It creates a longitundinal sheer connection between the planking that serves to help the boat act as a whole rather than as separate planks and frames. Without tight caulking the boat works (parts moving independently) more than the construction was designed to absorb and so eventually the fastenings work loose as well. At that point the structural integrity of the boat is pretty well shot. 

When a boat gets bad enough to be glassed over, typically it is delaying action rather than a permanent fix. While strip-planking, cold-molded, ashcroft and double-planking will accept a glass skin reasonably well, usually carvel does not do well over time. There are very few proper ways to glass a carvel hull and even these will result in a limited lifespan. 

Generally, if glassing a boat is going to succeed over the long period of time, the boat needs to be very dry when the work is done. Planks need to be properly fastened and stripped of all paints and sealers inside and out. Keel bolts should be replaced and all rot removed from the boat. The seams need to be raked clean. The planking is then saturated with epoxy inside and out. This is intended to seal and stabilize the wood to prevent swelling and shrinking. (more on that later) 

There are several theories on how to close the seams. Some recommend softwood wedges while other recommend a soft adhesive sealant. Once the seams are sealed then the outside of the hull is glassed with epoxy and minimally several laminations of glass. This membrane needs to be continuous from the rail around the keel. 

When the membrane is discontinuous and the interior of the planking is not sealed the planking will swell and shrink depending on its moisture content. As it does water and air can get into crevices and cause rot. This rot occurs in the portions of the framing that is not exposed to drying which means that the face of the planking seen from the interior can look and feel perfectly sound while the face of the planking in the seams and against the glass can break down. Additionally swelling and skrinking can exert heavy forces on the connection between the glass and the wood and deteriorate the bond reducing the strength of the system further. Lastly, if the planking is allowed to swell and shrink, while being restrained by the glass skin, the fastenings will be stressed reducing the strength of the connections between the planking and frames. 
One piece of the puzzle is that this boat looks pretty heavily constructed so there is a chance that there is adequate frames that you might excape refaming. 

Over the years I have watched a number of boats chainsawed due to these kinds of issues and to a great extent, this could easily be a zombie boat, its dead but it just does not know it. That said, if you were willing and able to properly restore it (replank, reframe, refasten and recaulk) this would be an interesting piece of history to own. 

Respectfully, 
Jeff


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> be a zombie boat, its dead but it just does not know it. That said, if you were willing and able to properly restore it (replank, reframe, refasten and recaulk) this would be an interesting piece of history to own.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jeff


Jeff and all others here in the forum, your input is here much appreciated!

To come back to the beginning:

First I made a visit with my family and even my wife, who does NOT like sailing, loved this boat!
I went on my own the next day for a 2nd visit and explored for a few hours all details of the boat. I have not discussed all the details of my own findings, only my main concerns, but did find so many small cracks in the woodwork through which potentially water could enter the boat (from above).

It's just really difficult to say: "goodbuy" to a boat which is such a nice design and seems to be an extremely good sailor as well.

Best regards,

Udo


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

I would like to thank everyone for contributing to this thread!

It's great to hear all opinions and I learned a lot in a very short time.

After listening to all opinions + having an expert on site, I decided the risk is too high and therefore, with regret, notified the seller that I am not going to buy it.

Best regards to all of you,

Udo


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## udoma (Jul 18, 2010)

Hello everybody,

I have not given up in the hunt for wooden classics, 
Inspected another one.
When interested, have a look in the new thread:
Posted a new image gallery.

here is the link to the new thread:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/66722-need-expert-advice-02-a.html#post625476

Udo


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