# DIY bottom paint?



## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

My bid was accepted on a CS 34' and it goes to the yard next week for the survey. I am thinking of painting it while its out of the water. I am handy and do lots of things myself, but have absolutely no experience painting a boat. The yard wants $1080 for everything, that includes a free haul. So, my question is, am I biting off more than I can chew? Or, is it just a matter of sanding the rough spots/paint blister, rolling on a coat, buffing and waxing? I would really appreciate some experienced advise, tools and materials list, maybe some good books to read too.
thanks!


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## Gene T (May 23, 2006)

Prepping the bottom is the problem, most yards won't let you just sand. The stuff is toxic and controlled by the EPA. Big fines if you don't do it correctly. Painting is easy. You could have the yard prep the bottom and you put on the paint, you can probably find a better deal on paint than the yard will charge you anyway, but some yards insist you buy the materials from them. I've done it an now feel like it is a good job for someone else.

Buff/waxing hull is DIY if you have a good buffer, long power cord, cleaner wax (or compound and then wax if it is really bad) , a ladder and 2 hard days. I do it but I take my time.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Seems to me you should be waiting for at least a verbal stamp of approval from your surveyor before planning to plunk down the coin for this job (which is on a boat you don't actually own yet!)

I can see the temptation to avoid another haulout, but talk to the yard and see if you make provisional arrangements to block the boat and do the work (or have it done) providing the survey goes well enough to give you confidence that the deal will go through.

Surveyors, however, usually want a little time to do some research before they will commit to a "market value" that will be important to you when it comes to insuring or financing the boat. So you are unlikely to get the complete picture from him/her at that moment.

Doing your own bottom job is not complicated, but usually involves more time and prep than you might think. Get yourself some paper coveralls, gloves, goggles and a filter mask (at least) - some of the solvents involved require a proper respirator mask.

Find out what paint is on the boat now, and be sure to avoid paints that will react with the present coating. A good pressure wash, followed by sanding (if permitted) may be all the prep you need, but if there are some blisters you need to decide how you'll deal with that, you may need/want to fair minor dings, especially on the fin and rudder, etc etc.

But I'd suggest you get the deal done first.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd agree with Faster... You're getting way ahead of yourself.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Welcome in advance to the CS family, we hope. Be sure to sign up for the email group at http://www.closereach.com/csoa/listserv.htm if you have not done so, most CS owners seem to participate. youi should do an archive search on the 34 to see what the FAQs are. (Insdie dope - you can also do a search on the baot and owners name - many boats (like mine) have a lengthy history in various threads).

I agree you should not start any work until the deal is done. You should try to get the sea trial out of the way before the boat is hauled, then have the yard keep it on the hard until a conclusion is reached. You would need 4-6 work days to do the bottom and topsides, if only normal season prep is needed. Be sure to have an engine surveyor do the engine.

You can go to http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/ for all things bottom paint related, including compatibility and application. Good luck.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Like everybody else has said, don't jump the gun.

Having said that, the general maintenance projects we do our selves.
If you have the yard doing all of your work for you, you will very soon end up with a very large yard bill. Very Large!

I think most would agree, bottom painting is a job that just about anybody can do.

The old stuff is a real pain in the butt to remove, its nasty!
Make sure as suggested earlier to wear a good resperatior, you can get very sick from working with this stuff. 

A Pressure washer was good advise and will make the job much easier. Still not pleasant, but easier.

Like Faster said, not all paints are compatable. You have to figure out what is on there now, the previous owner should be able to supply you with that.

Todays bottom paints are very smooth and simple to roll on, applying the new is no big deal. Removing the old is a bit of a challenge.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

Agree with the above - No work until you are the official owner - 
However - not sure what you plan to do with the boat but let me tell you what i did - i had also never painted a boat bottom and made a deal with the yard and a crew to paint the bottom however part of the deal was that i worked with the crew as a crew member and they taught me how to prep and paint the bottom - it took us 2 days and at the end i feel i can now prep and paint my own bottom - but it will take a bit longer than 2 days - 
By the way i did the same thing when replacing the cutlass - 
One thing - be a student and not a boat owner - learn and ask questions but they are the experts so let them teach you and take off your owners hat and put on a workers hat and leave your ego at home - treat it as if you are not even there and you are an apprentice 
just my thoughts 
chuck and soulmates


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

Most of the yards in my area will allow you to do your own sanding and painting but require some precautions. A random orbital sander with a shop vac fitted with a 'fine particle bag' attached to it does fine - for you and the environment. Some places also require that you tarp the area underneath the boat for the whole operation.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

While hauled out, you and your surveyor will first determine what type of bottom paint was last used and the extent of work necessary below the water line. Naturally, you will not be spending any additional money (beyond survey expenses) before offer acceptance, in the form of a signed agreement with the owner.

As was said, bottom paint application is the easy part - removal being much tougher - IF it is necessary. The probability does exist that an ablative was last used. If this is the case and the paint is sound with no spalling, all that may be required is a light sanding, followed by another coat of an ablative paint, such as Interlux Micron Extra with Biocide - an excellent paint for cruising sailboats. Do keep in mind however, that the bottom must be thoroughly dry before recoating, with minimum temps in the 50's.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*yard work*

I just spent six days in the boatyard and got a lot done on my Cape Dory 30. Depending on the boatyard and your approach, it could be great learning experience. I collected some great new skills like cutlass bearing replacement (including glass work) and restoring gelcoat.

The survey will help you develop a game plan and you can itemize money and time for the projects. There are just so many variables that others have listed. Haul the boat for survey, then make a plan.

It is very physical work but not very complicated. If you have the right weather and timing you can accomplish a great deal in a few days.

My six days in the boatyard cost me $400 which included haul, pressure wash and storage for those days. Paint, wetsand paper, compound, polish, cutlass bearing, 3M superbuff wheels, microfiber cloths, etc. cost hundreds extra but I increased her value and my satisfaction plenty.

Good luck-

AF


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Thanks all. lots of useful information. I was planning on waiting until it was a done deal, but I just wanted to know what I would be up against if I went through with it. If everything looks good and I end up with the boat, I may let the yard paint it if they let me help so I can learn. Its a little overwhelming just buying the boat. I think if I added trying to do the bottom, It would be too much. I have a lot to learn and next time I haul, I may be ready to do it myself. As you all know, when you take on projects, lots of new problems pop up, especially when you do it for the first time. So I am not opposed to paying for it this time.


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## pmoyer (Oct 3, 2006)

*Pressure washing....*

Say, what angle nozzle do y'all recommend for pressure washing the bottom? Is there a point (as with wood) that you'll damage what's underneath?

BTW, I have a DeWalt Pro 2800 psi washer....

Cheers,
Phil


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

T37Chef-

Might want to edit your post a bit....having the link by itself would be sufficient and it looks like complete crap.

Pmoyer-

Pressure washers aren't going to damage the bottom unless you really overdo. If you run it at medium pressure with a flat spray tip and don't get too close to the bottom, it should take off all the growth, but leave the anti-fouling paint, provided you're not using an ablative. * A pressure sprayer can peel off ablative paint really effectively. *


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

sailingdog is the self-appointed sailnet moderator. Admittedly, SD does seem to have a vast knowledge base of boats and attempts to demonstrate this by responding to most of the questions posted here. 

Unfortunately, it seems as though his primary mission is to ensure that everyone's opinions are edited to conform to his point of view - a sailnet-nazi of sorts.


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## FormerAdministrator (Jan 10, 2000)

I would like to intervene here and remind people about conducting themselves in a civilized manner on SailNet. Aside from being the site admin, I am also a member of several other forums that address my personal and professional interests and without exception - the forums where people start calling each other names are my least favorite. I will remind you that visitors to this site get the same impression when they see arguments break out here and see name calling. It leaves an impression on them and it's not a good impression.

I am not going to edit or delete anyones posts, but I am going to remind you that every action causes an equal and opposite reaction. If you 'come on strong' in a post there are bound to be repercussions.

I admire people who can make their point in a knowledgable way without lecturing or forcing their opinion on me. We're all intelligent people and we'll all make our own decisions based on the facts and opinions set forth. 

In summary, let's all show each other a measure of respect. We all fully expect to be taken to task when appropriate but let's do it in a professional and dignified manner.

thanks

Jeff
SailNet Admin


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

You go Adminstrator! A good and timely post.

PS - anyone else wonder just how many Sailnet Jeffs there are in Maryland?


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

I have wondered the same sailingfool. Giving the extent of tolerance "Jeff" displayed with Surfesq, I fail to understand why this exchange gets the administrator's whip.


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## FormerAdministrator (Jan 10, 2000)

TrueBlue said:


> I have wondered the same sailingfool. Giving the extent of tolerance "Jeff" displayed with Surfesq, I fail to understand why this exchange gets the administrator's whip.


simple: I have received complaints from both sides of the fence.

whip?

 - you folks will know then the "whip" comes out....

and it just seemed like a good time to point out the 'obvious'.

and ... by the way...

I think just about everyone here does a really good job of policing themselves and showing respect for others. I am impressed.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

so. lots of advice here already.my only addition is this- working on the bottom of a boat, and freeboard for that matter, is back breaking work.you will be using a sander,and/or buffer in uncomfortable positions for days on end.sanding and painting the bottom of a boat is much more physical than mental.hire a teenager or a mexican to help and supervise closely.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

T37...
Sincerely...help me understand why you feel that was a racist remark. By coupling "teenager or mexican" I felt moody was simply referring to cheap labor and it is simply a fact that teenagers and illegals are sources of cheap labor in this country. So why is that racist?


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Agree with cam, this country knows the cheap benefits of Mexican labor. My business is based in the resort city of Newport, RI and know of many hospitality business' which heavily rely upon teenage and Mexican labor for doing jobs most residents don't want - at very low rates.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

IMHO, the remark isn't clearly racist. It's ambiguous. It might be racist, and it might not. Whether it's racist depends on his meaning. It can be explained away in a non-racist manner, as camaraderie has done.

Having said that, I don't understand for the life of me why people persist in attaching ethnic references to their comments. How many people have to destroy their own good names and reputations before the rest of us learn that it's just plain stupid and self-destructive to make ethnic references in our public comments?

If Michael Richards had just commented on the rudeness of the large, noisy group of people who arrived late, and interrupted his show after it started, the whole world wouldn't have heard of the incident. The incident gained notoriety only because he lost his cool and made racist comments. In the absence of those remarks, people would have sympathized with him instead of condemning him, and they would have condemned the rude, late-arrivers. You have to shake your head and wonder how any person in the public eye can do such a foolish and self-destructive thing.

With a growing list of public figures who are destroying their own careers, you have to wonder why someone would post an ambiguous comment with an ethnic reference on a public forum. Don't we give any thought to these things before we hit the "send" button? Sailing is all about doing everything in a seamanlike manner. That means you do things the smart way, not just any old way.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

The whole point of the anonymity of the internet is one does not have to be PC. If someone offends you, ignore them and move on. I think there's even an option on here not to read their posts. For my two cents, I agree with Cam; both teenagers and mexicans work cheap although supplies vary by market. Want any more on this-meet me on fight club.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

The whole point of the anonymity of the internet is one does not have to be PC. If someone offends you, ignore them and move on. I think there's even an option on here not to read their posts. For my two cents, I agree with Cam; both teenagers and mexicans work cheap although supplies vary by market. Want any more on this-meet me on fight club.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> For my two cents, I agree with Cam; both teenagers and mexicans work cheap although supplies vary by market.


While this is true and -unfortuately- our society accepts and encourages this form of worker exploitation; that does not make it something that we are all allowed to take advantage of. If you read most yard rules they usually say specifically that any hired help must be the yard employees, not someone offering services outside of your local Home Depot. IMHO this is not a bad thing because if the yard workers are not kept employed the skill/craftsmanship of the boatworkers will eventually be lost. Sure it costs us all more when we need to pay for work but it also keeps skilled Americans employed and service yards in the black. Ethically it is not right and I would not feel good paying someone $8/hr doing the work that I know is worth $20-40/hr. Remember, the bigger expense is in the value of the boat and the ongoing expenses of mortgage, marina fees, upgrades, refits, etc. (more or less depending on what type of boat you own).

JMHO...


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Keel-Haulin...
Just to be clear...
1. I was asking about the racist perception...not recommending illegal labor use.
2. I favor elimination of illegal labor through harsh employer penalties as I agree with you about the effect on working men and women who are here legally or are citizens.
3. Bottom sanding is NOT worth 20-40 bucks an hour. It is grunt work but most marinas have us locked in and even a $40 rate is difficult to find. There ARE yards which permit and encourage owner & private work which allow folks to pay reasonable rates for the job at hand. (Cracker Boy's 2 yards in Florida come to mind.) 
4.As for skilled jobs...there is more than enough work to go around and finding a skilled marine guy is increasingly difficult but I don't think you'll encourage more by having fixing heads and bottom scraping on the "to do" list of a skilled shipwright or electrician. Maybe some good technical training programs would attract some talent. Yards charging $70 an hour and paying $20 to their crews are also part of the problem!!


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## Wayne25 (Jul 26, 2006)

"Yards charging $70 an hour and paying $20 to their crews are also part of the problem!!"
Based on my experience with other service related companies and assuming the yard has the usual benifits including paying half the healthcare, at $70 an hour the yard would be lucky to net 5 to 10% profit.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Refering to workers hired in front of Home Depot as "Mexicans" is not in the least bit racicist as that is probably a 100% acurate description. What do you think they are Swedes? y'all need to lighten up on the pc social band wagon crap.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Wayne...you may be right but typically benefits amount to about 1/3 of salaries INCLUDING the 6% or so kick in for FICA. So being generous...the worker gets a $30 cut and the yard gets $40. Of course there are lots of expenses in putting together, and owning a yard but I don't see too many yard owners driving Ford Fiestas so I'm not gonna cry for them! They also seem to be making out pretty well on the condo conversions!!
No...I'm not a socialist...just would like to see a return to a bit more equity in the work place and a little less greed up top. Probably not a discussion for this board so I'll get off the soapbox.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

About time, too!!


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

pigslo said:


> Refering to workers hired in front of Home Depot as "Mexicans" is not in the least bit racicist as that is probably a 100% acurate description. What do you think they are Swedes?


Let me remind you all of something. The vast majority of Mexicans in the USA are LEGAL. The people standing around at Home Depot generally represent ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS from Mexico; but if you just say "hire a Mexican (they represent the cheap labor here)" that is degrading to everyone; especially those that are both Citizens and Legal Migrant Workers. What would the response be if you replaced the word Mexican with "African American"? I think you would have lots more back-pedaling to do; because of the history of civil rights with respect to African Americans.

In our history the "cheap labor" represented whoever the immigrant influx was at the time (European Colonists, Irish, Italian, Chinese, African, Mexicans, etc.) The difference is that in current times people coming in across the US/Mx border are illegal and willing to work for next to nothing because that is the state of their economy (they dont know any different and are looking for a better way of life).

When we pay Illegals to do work that could be done by an American we are supporting the Mexican Government in not making changes to their society. We also undermine the salary structure of our economy and put Americns out of work. If there were no illegals to do the "unwanted work" there would be better incentive to pay workers a respectable salary for those jobs and Americans would be more willing to do them. Coal miners make ~$50k/year now when it once was one of those "worthless blue collar jobs" because of the pay vs. labor/risk. Automation is making the coal mining worker obsolete; but from the perspective of OSHA that is probably a good thing. But instead of paying people respectable salaries for labor-intensive jobs we have Illegals gathering in masses and demanding rights/privilidges and respect that they have not earned by entering this country legally. We have empowered them by giving them a foothold in our society via jobs and goofy ACLU backed laws.

It's the American Way to exploit those who are considered 'worth less' than others; but it's not "my way". If stripping the paint from the bottom of a boat were such an easy thing to do, why are there not companies that will do this for less than $40/hr? Stripping down a hull with a sander is backbreaking work. Would anyone other than an Illegal, teenager, or homeless person do this work for less than $15-20 bucks per hour (aside from a friend or family member)? I don't think so.

As far as yard work goes; fewer and fewer yards are allowing DIY'ers in my area (SF Bay). Partly for environmental concerns but mostly to keep their profits high enough to stay in business and their workers employed. Haul-out work is very seasonal up in the northern lattitudes and there definitely is a slow time of year and busy time. So you have to factor in the time that many of these guys are not doing lots of work yet the yard is still paying their salary. Yards that allow DIY work usually will stipulate that you do not hire outside labor to do work that is normally done by the yard; and you do not buy paint from an outside source.

As for the "unskilled" work; yardworkers have to start somewhere. The lower salary guys are subsidising the pay for the higher paid employees and helping the yard to make enough margin on their slower work rate and inexperience. While certainly try and keep my yard costs to a minimum by DIY'ing everything I am capable of; I really would not feel bad about paying to have work done that I felt was not in my skillset.

Enough said by me...


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## CLOVERMILL (Nov 5, 2006)

A thousand bucks or so, with haul out and paint , is a good price.Take it


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## 42ndstreet (Oct 15, 2004)

I think you should hire the mexican teenager and get a really low rate.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

42ndstreet said:


> I think you should hire the mexican teenager and get a really low rate.


Just remember, you get what you pay for. If you hire someone (of any nationality) off the street, and they sand a hole in you're boat, you have absolutly no recourse, and you now have to pay for that repair, and it will end up costing more than the original job.

Charlie


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

werebeagle said:


> Just remember, you get what you pay for. If you hire someone (of any nationality) off the street, and they sand a hole in you're boat, you have absolutly no recourse, and you now have to pay for that repair, and it will end up costing more than the original job.
> 
> Charlie


True, but that is why supervision was highly recommended for doing so.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

I would like to apologize to all SailNet users. It was inappropriate to post my personal views of another's post. I will keep it to sailing!!!


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## mike dryver (May 13, 2006)

eastbayboys if you have to remove the bot paint have the boat soda blasted. it is priced according to wateline by beam. i watched it being done hear in NE Mass. and can tell you it is the way to go. i am going to have it done next fall when the boat comes out. the co. is totally responsible for disposal of clean up. if you are up here the name of the co is New England Soda Blast. no i am not affiliated with same. when they are done all you do is apply new paint or if it were me barrier coat and then paint. the surface comes out etched ready for paint. good luck
regards mike


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

T37... I don't think your post was inappropriate at all. It stirred up some interesting discussion. And that is what makes this place worthwhile even if it wasn't directly sailing related. Lats & Atts has a section of their board called "the bilge" where non-sailing discussions (ok...rants!) take place and maybe that would be appropriate here as well...but in the meantime keep posting your thoughts and opinions. We all get blasted from time to time...so what!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

TrueBlue said:


> I have wondered the same sailingfool. Giving the extent of tolerance "Jeff" displayed with Surfesq, I fail to understand why this exchange gets the administrator's whip.


TruePink: You are a chick.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

With your knuckle-dragging style of human interaction, it's no mystery to anyone here why you were canned from that law firm 18 years ago.

"TruePink"? If you ever met me, you would discover just how wrong that characterization is. Where've you been Surf-ex-esq? I must admit - SailNet was certainly a much better place without you.


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## Sonofasonofasailor (Feb 22, 2006)

Surfesq said:


> TruePink: You are a chick.





TrueBlue said:


> With your knuckle-dragging style of human interaction, it's no mystery to anyone here why you were canned from that law firm 18 years ago.
> 
> "TruePink"? If you ever met me, you would discover just how wrong that characterization is. Where've you been Surf-ex-esq? I must admit - SailNet was certainly a much better place without you.


Did you two break up?
Is that why Surf has stayed away for so long?


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## yotphix (Aug 18, 2006)

Hey Trueblue...you have to admit that having Smurfette around is kind of like having a mouthy punching bag. You never get tired of hitting it!


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## feetup (Sep 19, 2006)

This certainly has turned into one of those threads that ends up somewhere else. Quite the ride though, started out with a question inocently enough, and now we have slighted under age illegal imegrants working (poorly) for less than professionals while we inhale toxic chemicals with a disbarred right wing lawyer who who can't get a car loan. Groovey


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## SailinJay (Dec 6, 2002)

Looks like a spammer to me, Cam.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Gone! Tks Jay.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Hey asdlfsjdf...tell you mum I forgot my wristwatch in her bed table..

Thanks


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

We don't need no stinkin' pimps here boys. This ain't SALE NET.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

hello, any moderators around????


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

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