# Need advice on buying new sails for my Venture 21



## FishDragon (Nov 26, 2011)

I bought my first real sailboat last August - a ver clean and well-maintained 1972 Venture 21. I want to buy new sails for it by springtime, but I'm unsure what's best, and would appreciate any advice I can get.

We'll be sailing it in Barnagat Bay on the central New Jersey coast, and probably (but not definitely) won't be doing any racing. Still, I want to get decent sails for it - while having a modest budget (~$1,500.00).

I've looked at the following;
- Mauri Sails 5.75oz Cruise Dacron
- North Sails Marathon Series 100 6oz 4800 Dacron

I know nothing about manufacturers, materials or other details.

Thouhts?

Cheerio!
Marc


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Buy used sails from Bacon's in Annapolis, MD.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

+1 good advice above. They have a great return policy. 

Keep talking to sailmakers, North, Quantum, UK, Ullman, Evolution, etc. Learn about them, then you'll have the right tools to buy sails in the future.


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## FishDragon (Nov 26, 2011)

Thanks for the info! I'm looking in to these things. Curious - what's the difference between cruising sails and racing sails? Shouldn't all sails deliver the best performance?


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Nope, b/c racing sails hold their design shape better for the first 5 years, then grenade in spectacular fashion, and you throw them away. 

Cruising sails slowly lose their shape as soon as you use them, but they don't grenade or fall apart until 15+ years later. This is long after they've lost their 'foil' shape. 

IMHO, dacron sails should be replaced anywhere in the 5-10 year range. 10 is the extreme, but people don't b/c they're expensive and not worried about pointing 5* higher and going .3 knots faster in every direction. In racing, that's huge, and people are willing to pay more for better performance. 

Dacron stretches, quite a lot actually, and that's not good on a racing boat.


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## FishDragon (Nov 26, 2011)

that's very helpful info. my thinking is this - my boat's relatively small (21') so the sails aren't terribly expensive. and even though i don't anticipate racing (at least not my first year), your info has me thinking i might be best off getting racing sails, so as to get better performance. IF i even own the boat ~5 years, buying new sails at that point would be worth it. what fabric is typically used for racing sails?


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Materials is a better question for a sailmaker. Also, you need to ask yourself realistically how much racing you plan on doing, and what your budget is for sails. You also need to realize that racing sails need to be flaked (or rolled in your case) and cared for a little better than dacron. 

For a small boat, a lot of people chose dacron b/c the weight savings of hi-tech sails on a small boat is little to none. Also, the loads aren't nearly as high, therefore you may not NEED race sails. If this is a new to you boat, it's going to take a couple years for you to learn the boat, learn how to race, and develope crew who are competative. IMHO no sense in dropping coin on a set of kevlar/carbon/technora sails until you have the boat prep (running rigging, layout, bottom, foils) done, the crew is up to speed and boat handling is second to none, and finally you understand tactics and stategy and can implament them on the course. Then you drop the money on sails. Long story short, you're not going to win races b/c you have great sails and are going up the left side when the right is favored.


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## FishDragon (Nov 26, 2011)

Outstanding advice and information! Thank you!! Here's another question - as I've been submitting quote requests with sailmakers, they ask for basic dimensional info (I, J, P and E). How do I best determine that? There's info at Sailboatdata.com (VENTURE 21 sailboat on sailboatdata.com), or should I measure my old sails (which I just happen to have here at home ?

Again, thank you for taking the time to write responses to my questions, it is very much appreciated!


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

You can give them the IJPE info from the site for NOW. But when it comes time to order anything, make sure the sailmaker steps on the boat and measures for themself. If you do it and something doesn't fit, it's your loss. If they do it, they fix it for free. Measuring is not hard, but if it's your first time, let a pro do it, it's not something you want to learn through trial and error. 

Off topic - The Venture 21 is a fun boat, I learned how to sail on one. Just inspect the pivot bolt and washers that the keel swings on. They leak and sink a boat rather quickly.


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## FishDragon (Nov 26, 2011)

Again, I thank you for your very helpful info. Do you have any knowledge regarding Mauri Sails? While I have quote requests submitted to about 6 sailmakers so far, Mauri prices seem best so far (Mauri Sails: Sails for Venture 21).

Really glad to hear of your experience with the Venture. I'm really looking forward to spring sailing. I didn't get the boat until late August, so my wife and I only got to take it out once, but it sailed very nicely! Also, thanks for the info on the keel bolt. The boat's on its trailer for the winter, and I intended to replace the bolt and washers anyway, and am even more determined to do so now. Hopefully, that won't be too difficult.

The only other significant issue with the boat is the outboard. It came with an old Gamefisher 7.5 2-stroke (Sears product, I believe) of very questionable reliability. Being a former dirt-biker from way back, I have plenty of knowledge and experience working on 2-strokes, and was thinking about rebuilding it, but was also considering buying a new outboard. I was considering a new Honda 5HP 4-stroke. That should be sufficient power for this boat, don't you think?


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## Lake Superior Sailor (Aug 23, 2011)

Why not use the sails you have at least till you have a feel for the boat?As for the motor have you run it? See what it does on your boat before you make a mistake buying something else! I would lose the gamefisher only after I tested it out to see what it does,then I would make a choice-- Dale P.S. You must have a lot of money!


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## FishDragon (Nov 26, 2011)

I did run the motor, and it died on me the second time I tried taking the boat out - that's why I know it needs work, or to be replaced. And while I have a few bucks to spend on the boat, I don't "have a lot of money" - if I did, I would have bought a newer and/or better boat. Thanks for your help.


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## FijiSomeDay (Sep 17, 2010)

chances are the carb just has some junk in it, easy to clean out with solvent and a screwdriver. there ought to be a small fuel filter in the line to replace as well.

I have been replacing the sails on my 1978 Ranger 22 over the past few years. There are a lot of decent used sails out there, but since I am racing here on Lake Tahoe I opted for a new main from North Direct, and am saving up for racing headsails. The mainsail is good but the purchase experience was less than satisfactory as it had to be shipped from Sri Lanka and did not meet promised delivery dates. In the future I will go with local sailmakers (which may in fact be the North factory in Minden, NV).


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## FijiSomeDay (Sep 17, 2010)

*good advice*



> You can give them the IJPE info from the site for NOW. But when it comes time to order anything, make sure the sailmaker steps on the boat and measures for themself.


Very true, my P measurement was 1/2" smaller than spec which would have resulted in less than full hoist. Even if you order a sail from a distance, you should have a local rigger make the measurements.


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## [email protected] (Dec 15, 2011)

A 5 hp 4-stroke will be plenty of motor for your boat. One of your main concerns will be shaft length, 15" or 20", referred to as short shaft or long shaft, and is measured from the top inside of the mounting bracket to the horizontal plate, called the cavitation plate, directly above the prop. Measure your Gamefisher; most likely it is a short shaft; I had one. Before you buy, have someone, preferably a little heavier than you, go forward while you are back with the motor. When he is forward at the bow, does your cavitation plate come out of the water. If it does, you should seriously consider the longer shaft option. Check out Onlineoutboards.com for new or Ebay for a used motor.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Those are very good prices for dacron. My boat is a little bigger but was quoted around 1200+ for a mainsail. The main I ended up getting was around $2200. 

If measuring worries you, might want to consider hiring a sailmaker to measure your boat. Although, that may be frowned upon, most of the time sailmakers expect to make a sale after doing the leg work. 

The 7.5 will be fine. I have a 3000 lbs boat with a 3.5hp motor that moves just fine. Although, when the wind and waves are up, it's just better to sail.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Another source to mention is FX Sails.
Sunfish Sails, Catalina Sails, Spinnakers, Hobie Sails, Small Boat Sails from the Sail Store

Just be warned, they get mixed reviews.
I have heard very good things about the quality and the price for new sails usually can not be beat. I have sailed on a boat that uses these sails and for the normal recreational boater, the quality is very good.
The negatives have always been poor delivery time. If you want them new for Spring you should be ok.
Thier on line quote request is very fast and easy.


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## [email protected] (Dec 15, 2011)

Check out The Sail Warehouse and National Sail Supply. Both have reasonable prices for cruising sails and are good people to deal with.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

fishdragon, beware of measuring your old sails to get dimensions. Old sails are stretched out, and the dimensions will exceed the "correct" dimensions for you boat. When in doubt ask the loft if they have the design specs for your boat, or use a steel (not fiberglass) tape measure and also measure the dimensions on your rig. It is an assumption, sometimes wrong, that the correct original rig is on an old boat. When you're ordering sails--you don't want any assumptions.

Also consider that a loft which is paying attention to business should be willing and able to answer any question you have--and if they don't or can't answer, maybe that's a reason to use another loft, even if it costs a bit more.

You may not want racing sails if you are not racing. Consider that a cruiser may have just two sails (main & fore) or four sails (add two storm sails) while a racer is more likely to have 6, 8, 10 or more. A "light main" for winds under 10 knots, a heavier one, multiple foresails, etc. The weight and shape of the main can be cut for specific wind ranges, and you might want to think about your local winds and ask the loft about cloth weight, etc. Durable usually means heavier, and heavier is not so good if you are in an area that has light winds a lot of the time during sailing season. OTOH if you are in a region with constant heavy winds--you don't want a lighter less expensive cloth.

Don't be afraid to ask the loft. Or to tell them, you're new to this, what other options should you be looking at.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

+1 to hellosailor's comments. Sailing, and "racing" are two separate activities. And they require separate tools to do well.


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## FishDragon (Nov 26, 2011)

What helpful information - thank you everyone! Have a great weekend!!

Marc


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