# Back to sailing soon. Where, when, how help?



## Stevieray

Hello folks. I'm introducing myself as a new sailor here. I haven't sailed for almost 10 years. I'm now 57 and in average physical health (no major issues yet😁). Confined to a kayak while my daughters made their way through college to independence. I have sailed a 22 foot fin keel and a 20 foot swing keel. I took one coastal trip off of Casco Bay and sailed quite a bit in the Hudson River (with and without auxiliary). I'm potentially interested in a slightly larger boat, but have limited resources. Probably cannot realistically afford to maintain a boat over 27 feet (I can do most of my own work, (some of it even reasonably well!) I've almost always sailed solo. I want to do some short cruises, and gunkholing is my type of sailing. I would probably be comfortable in a trailer sailer for that, and I've looked at and really liked Oday 22, 23, and 25s for relatively low cost, accommodation, availability. They have mixed reviews on sailing performance but are forgiving and shallow draft. As for cruising grounds, I'm on the East Coast and have considered the Chesapeake and Pamlico Sound areas. Recently, mainly because I tend to have more time in the winter than summer (seasonal variability in work), I've considered the Miami area. Advantages: major airport, ICW, Keys, Bahamas(?), lots of resouces, facilities. I may have the ability to live on and sail a boat for 2 to 3 months at a time (I've lived out of a minivan for that long😳), but I wouldn't start out that way. Looking to wade back in more slowly perhaps, though that could change. I've waited a long time to attempt this again; have made mistakes before, underestimating the true cost of boat ownership, overestimating other people's interest in sharing my joy in boating and life on water. But in the end, I can't live without it. Got under my nails or something. I thought that getting some advice from more experienced sailors would be valuable. I'm not sure if that provides enough info but I sure would appreciate any input. Thanks. Steve.


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## PhilCarlson

Welcome!


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## midwesterner

My experience is limited. There are people on here who know more about the sailing scene in and around Miami than I do, but it sounds expensive, but you can drive to areas nearby. My last two charters were in the Keys. I flew into Miami once, and Fort Lauderdale the other time, and drove a rental car to the Keys.
There are also options on the Gulf Coast (Ft. Meyers).

There are also options in Georgia and the Carolinas.


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## PhilCarlson

If you are looking at the Gulf Coast, You have Tampa Bay and Port Charlotte. Tampa Bay offers relatively sheltered day sailing and access to downtown St Petersburg. There is also a lot of stuff on the ICW on the Gulf side of Pinellas County. I havn't sailed the Port Charlotte area but people I've spoken to like it more than Tampa Bay.

Cost of living in Miami is probably higher, but there are plenty of places to drop anchor for free. Stadium Marina offers a spectacular view of the city at night. 

If you are thinking about coastal cruising or crossing to the Bahmas, you might want to re-think the size and capabilites of the boats you're looking at.


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## Stevieray

I forgot to mention the West Coast of Florida too yes. Thank you Phil. I would love to sail to the Bahamas but I tend to agree that, for most, it is better to do so in a more heavily built boat than I can probably afford right now. But happily Florida clearly has great sailing too! And perhaps the Gulf Coast is cheaper too....


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## SanderO

Welcome Steve! Lots of possibilities for you... but of course there are constraints. Sailnet has a number of members who cruise on small boats... more on mid size boats and a fair amount on larger boats. There is a lot of wisdom here. But you have to start making choices/commitments and your plan will come into focus. Lots of boat choices are limited by available funds. Can't do much without cash... But once you have a boat you can do a fair amount with little cash.


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## Stevieray

An interesting issue you raise is with coastal cruising. I find this to be the really gray area of sailboat realities. People take risks that they shouldn't in small boats. I've done really stupid things in retrospect, that I'd probably not care to repeat. I've sailed 10 to 15 miles offshore in an old and unfit Bayliner Buccaneer for a couple of days at a time, been in 6 foot square waves on the Hudson in a squall with a 60 mile an hour wind in my Ensenada 20 (not really my fault), that I barely got my sails down in time to avoid a knockdown (the lightning was unnerving), kayaked a mile or two offshore striper fishing in unprotected water in a sit-in reccy (many times), surfed a canoe onto a beach in breaking waves, only because it was preferable to staying out in them! I'm sure these are comparatively mild examples and I survived.

If there's one thing that I dislike about most keel boats, its that they are likely to SINK when holed. I wish flotation was a bigger obsession for US boat builders. ETAP (Belgium?) covered that base but, in the US, only the smaller trailer sailers and homebuilts ever have that feature that I'm aware of. Roger Taylor added lots of flotation to his Ming Ming for sailing in icy North latitudes. Doesn't mean I'd want to sail to the Azores on a hunk of closed cell foam, secured with a seat belt either.... Has somebody already done that? But I admit to being obsessed with flotation. 😳 

Anyway, among other things, I'm trying to do a better job of matching my boat and skill to the kind of water and conditions I'm in. I'm grudgingly coming to terms with my limitations. Also, I hope to just become part of a community of people with shared interest in being on the water, any way they can!🌊⛵


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## PhilCarlson

Now is a good time to look at the South Florida and Tampa Bay Craigslist. There seem to be better listings this time of year. Anyway... you haven't indicated your budget but CL will give you an idea of what is out there and price ranges. Keep in mind that a fixer-upper usually ends up being more expensive than a turn key boat. 

What I have learned by watching the listings is that there is often somebody selling a decent boat at a good price because of life changes, and those listings don't last long. They also like to know their boat is going to someone who will keep it alive, rather than let it rot on the mooring. Those listings don't stay up long but there is always another coming along.


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## RegisteredUser

I would also include Ft Myers CL in your search.


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## Stevieray

Those are great suggestions. I've been dialing in on the Port Charlotte area. Looks like lots of interesting coastal sailing South to the Keys and some good opportunities North as well. Also, seems pretty sailboat friendly and laid back too. I've roughed out a monthly budget for this as a reference, to see what's possible for me. I expect that if I bought an older production boat (20 to 25 feet, up to about 4k initial), that was reasonably looked after, I could swing a mooring or slip for several months (350), storage costs (200), insurance (50?) and a maintenance kitty (100). That's around 400 a month average (depending on balance of storage and time on the water). I'd have about 1200 a year to maintain the boat. Skill sets include basic wiring, finish carpentry, epoxy/glass experience, marine paint/faring, basic mechanical ability. Does that seem like a realistic budget for a trailer sailer these days? When I was younger, I never thought about much of this in advance. I just worked more to pay for it all.😳 I'm trying to be more cautious this time around. So that I actually have TIME to go sailing! Thanks.


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## RegisteredUser

If you are an experienced camper, youll do fine on that size boat.
If not, you might get some mental shocks...and need to adapt


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## Arcb

I am a bit confused by your budget. When you say $200 for storage, I think you are saying $200/month? Budget stuff is about the easiest to estimate because you can google marina rates and insurance rates. If I follow your plan correctly, you want to spend 2-3 months on your trailer sailer in South Florida for as cheap as possible?

The Keys are nice, but they aren't cheap. There is very little undevelopped shoreline. It wouldnt be my first choice, nor would Miami be.

If it was me I might look for off season in the Marco Island area (check Goodland) or Fort Myers area,it would not be hard floating around the 10000 Islands for a few months, inland storage would be cheaper than a marina, use public boat ramps. No slip or moorage fees required. Just beach/anchor in the shelter of the islands for free, head to town for a few hours a week for groceries, water and laundry.

Again, if it was me, I would go with about as small of a boat as I felt I would be comfy on and could carry the load I needed. Storage fees are almost all based on length or length x beam. Smaller is cheaper. Keep it small enough and you can tow it around behind a minivan. No truck expenses, only one axle, cheaper rubber, cheaper rigging and sails, smaller cheaper outboard that burns less gas etc.

If solo, I could be quite happy beach cruising/liveaboard, something like a West Wight Potter 19 for a few months in South West Florida.

https://www.westwightpotter.com/products/potter-19/gallery/


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## Stevieray

Yeah Arch. It might be best to go back to a trailer sailor. I had an Ensenada 20 for a while. I kept it at a municipal mooring and hauled it twice a year, unless there was a bad storm, or it needed repairs. The boat was luxurious compared to camping in my minivan, and I can do that for extended periods of time if I'm on the road. I guess in that scenario, I could store it for 100 a month or less in a lot, do work in a DIY yard when needed, mix up anchoring out and transient slips or moorings as I need. Its not that I am destitute, just wanting to maximize good times on boat and not make it too complicated. Only thing is, I'll want to tow it to other places.... I haven't looked for a hauler yet but I'd rather pay someone to haul my trailer than buy another truck. Lots of decision forks but "small IS beautiful" to a point. Cheers.


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## Arcb

The beauty of going with a full on beach cruiser (say under 1500 pounds, swing keel with no stub) is the beach becomes your living room. No need to dinghy ashore, you are already there. We use a 12x12 portable bug tent/gazebo which we set up next to the boat as living room, kitchen and dining room.

There are a lot of nice, free accesible beaches in SW Florida just waiting for kayakers and small sailboaters to make their home for 14 days. Even Tampa has a free camping island for folks with small sailboats and kayaks etc. Totally free, its just off Fort Desoto Park (I have stayed there, its cool), there is a free island beach about 500 meters from Marco, I have also stayed there. There is one off Venice. They are everywhere on the Gulf Coast. No one uses them (no way to run the air conditioner and tv on the beach ). Even paying for a spot to camp in Everglades National Park is only $7/night, again 14 day limit.

Some require a permit and all that I know of have a maximum stay of 14 days.


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## Stevieray

Yeah, I could do stuff like that all the time! Always liked doing stuff like that in small groups too. But its really difficult to schedule anything with others. At some point I just decided to do just about everything alone and enjoy myself. I'm quite sociable but nobody ever has any time. I even gave up sailing for a long time because I was working so much. I kayaked a lot, which I really liked too, but sailing is on a different level altogether for me. I won't even attempt to describe it here. It would be a book and one that I need to get back to writing🌊⛵.


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## SuW

Hi Stevieray, good luck on your search.
Incidentally there's an adorable Sand Hen for sale in Maine (In Good Old Boat magazine).
I love the idea of coastal cruising in something like this...price is good too.


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## Stevieray

That's a sweet boat. Nice interior layout. Thanks for the link. I'll add that to good places to search. Thanks.


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## eherlihy

To gain experience, there are lots of sailing clubs around. A friend and I attended a Fort Myers Sailing Club meeting some time ago, and they were looking for members. He belongs to the West Coast (of Florida) Trailer Sailor group. I have taken a bunch of people out through the use of ASA's https://gosailingapp.com/


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## Sal Paradise

The endless and unsolvable sailing puzzle. You may just have to make it worse by just buying a cheap old boat and dealing with the situation as you progress. So, the catch with trailer sailers is they don't have the stability and room to make passages pleasant. Despite what many people will tell you. So, you trailer to a location and you sail around within 20 miles of that location, repeat. That's MOST PEOPLE. Not everyone. You might want to check this guy out who does offshore overnight passages in a Catalina 22 with his wife.


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## hellosailor

"No one uses them (no way to run the air conditioner and tv on the beach )."
My Evil Twin Brother has a suggestion for you. Buy a couple of 4x4 fence posts. Attach a length of conduit and a duplex outlet box on each. Pound 'em into the sand at your favorite beach, spaced maybe 50-100' feet apart.
Then sit back and enjoy the show while "campers"show up, plug in, and loudly complain about why the damn power doesn't work.


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## scubadoo

Miami boat show is coming up in the middle of February...used to be strictly sail, but now lots of sport fish and center consoles there also. Still a few good sailing seminars though. Good way to see and learn about local moorings, marinas, water ways, chartering....


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## Arcb

You do not need need an exceptional amount of stability or range to sail south west Florida. Between the Florida Gulf Intra Coastal Waterway, Pine Island Sound, the 10 000 Islands and Florida Bay, a boat with sufficiently shallow draft can explore most of the coast without ever venturing out into the Gulf of Mexico. Stop into Publix to resupply, get water from marinas along the way. 

I have personally sailed a 16 foot beach cat with no engine from Tampa to the Keys. I trailed the boat to Tampa from Canada, and left the van and trailer there while I explored. The only marina I paid for was about a week in Key Largo. I am certainly not recommending you try to execute your plan with a beach cat, but most swing keel trailer sailors should be more than up for the task.

Here is my SPOT track from Tampa to Key Largo, I also made it down to Tavernier.


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## Markwesti

We had a O'Day 23' back in the mid 80's . We put a lot of sea miles on that boat and spent many 2 weeks at a time on it at our favorite island mooring field and at anchor . Also I had barrel of monkey fun modifying the rig and mast spreaders . I almost cut a hole in the hull to install a 2 stroke outboard engine , mswesti put a stop to that project (wisely I add) . Another boat I'm familiar with is the Catalina 22 excellent boat IMO . If you can swing it , get a slip in a marina at least for the sailing season . Good Luck and keep us posted .


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## Stevieray

Markwesti. Looking very hard at both of those boats. I came close to buying an Oday 23 in September but I wanted to see it out of the water. Owner's trailer wasn't available so I told him I'd come back when he pulled it at end of October. He must have sold it because I never heard back. I was surprised at how easy it was to move around below. 5'3" headroom I think and more than enough room for me (once 5'11 but down to 5'9😬). Seemed like a very comfortable boat to me. I could easily spend extended periods on that. The C22 is perhaps even better. Lighter, faster, a few inches less draft, reportedly points better, light helm downwind with the keel raised. A little less headroom, but that's less windage too (a poptop on some compensates for that). I'd probably bite on either one and live with it, though in skinny water and light air the C22 prevails. As the song says "I'm getting closer to my home" 😎


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## PhilCarlson

hellosailor said:


> Buy a couple of 4x4 fence posts. Attach a length of conduit and a duplex outlet box on each. Pound 'em into the sand at your favorite beach, spaced maybe 50-100' feet apart.
> Then sit back and enjoy the show while "campers"show up, plug in, and loudly complain about why the damn power doesn't work.


Thats GENIUS! I'm gonna do it!


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## Stevieray

Arcb that sounds like an awesome cruise. Where did you park? If it wasn't for the lack of parking spaces and restrooms, I'd have already just sailed off in my dinghy.


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## Arcb

I Parked at Fort Desoto State Park. Van plus trailer is $6/day or you can get an annual vehicle plus trailer parking pass for $110. I am sure there must be cheap long term parking in Everglades National Park as well. I believe there is free car and trailer parking at the Ranger Station in Everglades city as well. I agree, washrooms stops along that coast are a bit of an issue. A porta potti minimum would be nice.

Pinellas County, Florida, Park and Conservation Resources - Boat Ramp Parking Permit Information


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## Stevieray

How long were you out arcb? Looks like a 2 to 3 week trip or more. Sounds like you did your own Everglades Challenge! Nice!


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## Arcb

Actually, it was the Everglades Challenge. I was 4 and a half days Tampa to Key Largo.

We also spent a few days cruising the Tampa area and a week or 9 days exploring Florida Bay and the Keys.

I am going back to solo the EC in 2020 in my sailing kayak. My philosophy is, why trailer a 350 pound boat 3000 miles, when a 65 pound car topper will get the job done


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## Stevieray

That's funny.... I was aware of that annual race. I've watched a number of the yt videos of that and the Texas 200. Looks fun as heck, grueling, etc. Such a nice bunch of folks every year. Is your kayak an outrigger? I built an ama for my canoe when I lived in NY. Sailed it on the Hudson with a dinghy rig and a jib. It really moved! I built one for my kayak too but never got around to sailing that. Other than a beach umbrella to get back up a tidal creek once or twice😁


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## Arcb

No outrigger no. I just got the boat in October but I have been out on it a lot experimenting. I have found I can keep the boat sailing flat by pivoting at my hips and using my torso to counter balance the rig. That is good to about maybe 12-15 knots of wind, maybe more if it isnt gusty and it isnt too rough. Its a lot like sailing a laser.

When the wind gets too high to use my body weight, I do a low brace with my paddle and the paddle basically becomes the outrigger. Not much downward force is required. The paddle blade kind of planes on the water surface. Its a real blast to sail.

I started two threads on it. One on the assembly while I was figuring out how to do the build. The other I am making some youtube vids of me teaching my self how to sail it. I gave the thread a bit of a goofy name, but I dont think I can change a thread title. Should have just called it learning to kayak sail videos or something.

https://www.sailnet.com/forums/main...sing-sail-trim-centre-lateral-resistance.html


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## Stevieray

Hey Arcb, that is an awesome video! You explained the mechanics of it very clearly. This is a really important concept for emergency steering too. Pretty much anything that you could raise or lower out of the water at or near the stern would help steer the boat. I'm ecstatic that you have demonstrated such a simple means of steering a kayak under sail. Very simple minimal associated gear or weight. Basically the sail, skeg, and/or paddle. I hate to bug you even further, but I'd love to know more about that specific sail rig. As Will Smith said in Independence Day, "I got to get me one of these!" Thank you for taking the time to respond though. Really helpful and got me going in a few new directions.😁


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## Stevieray

Hey sorry. Picked that info up off your yt channel. Subscribed. Thanks.


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## Sal Paradise

Stevieray said:


> Those are great suggestions. I've been dialing in on the Port Charlotte area. Looks like lots of interesting coastal sailing South to the Keys and some good opportunities North as well. Also, seems pretty sailboat friendly and laid back too. I've roughed out a monthly budget for this as a reference, to see what's possible for me. I expect that if I bought an older production boat (20 to 25 feet, up to about 4k initial), that was reasonably looked after, I could swing a mooring or slip for several months (350), storage costs (200), insurance (50?) and a maintenance kitty (100). That's around 400 a month average (depending on balance of storage and time on the water). I'd have about 1200 a year to maintain the boat. Skill sets include basic wiring, finish carpentry, epoxy/glass experience, marine paint/faring, basic mechanical ability. Does that seem like a realistic budget for a trailer sailer these days? When I was younger, I never thought about much of this in advance. I just worked more to pay for it all.😳 I'm trying to be more cautious this time around. So that I actually have TIME to go sailing! Thanks.


I doubt I've spent $1200/ yr maintaining my Cat 22. Bought some nearly new CL sails for $350. Also a long shaft outboard for $300, and some electronics and replaced a few rigging parts. Painted the nonskid deck one year. New trailer tires.These are all in different years. A porta potti brand new was like $75. New keel lift cable $60. Some lines each year. Its usually one big boat gift in the spring and that's it. I sail the heck out of mine and I am probably at $350 - $400/ yr. Inverter for charging phones. I have only day sailed it and camped off it. Cheap dock and I take it home in the winter. I admit that I run mine on a shoestring budget and I don't do anything to make it look nicer except wash it.

Currently she needs a new hatch, some LED lights, a solar panel and a stanchion for the port lifelines.


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## Minnewaska

Welcome aboard.

If you're willing to camp (ie live in your minivan), your options are endless. Knocking around the coast and crossing to the Bahamas don't require anything extreme. Best to invest in an ipad, cell data and a good weather app, for your 1-2 day passage planning. 

As for location, I was in Miami (Key Biscayne) this past Fall. I wanted to like the idea of bringing our boat there for the winter. It's subtropical. Good airport access. We explored marinas and did a tour of the area. Turned out, my wife and I did not like it at all. Too commercial, too urban. The daily news and culture have too much drug trade overtone.


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## Stevieray

Salparadise. Very useful feedback and good news. Its sounding like, as long as I exercise due diligence in the selection process, I'm not way off here. Assuming that I go with a boat like a C22, I'd be able to get, or at least plan for, some things that might not come with the boat, or have questionable amount of life left. Sails, roller furler, chartplotter, autopilot, batteries, solar panel, bimini, rigging. Also, yard time for maintenance, and all the little things that add up (paint, bedding compound, lights, wiring, hardware, lines). Not that I'd be getting or doing all this at once😬 but I can maintain a decent boat this way, within reason. Thanks.


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## Stevieray

Minnewska. Good points. I am leaning more West Coast Fla. now.


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## Minnewaska

FL west coast makes the Bahamas a long shot. It may just be my taste, but I substantially prefer the out islands to any place I've ever been in FL. If I had a few months to kill aboard, it would not be in FL. Jump off and explore. 

While I think you can go to the Bahamas in any draft found on a 20 something foot boat, the shallower the better. Even a swing keel would be a bonus, but not required. It's really just a matter of whether you can get places in a fairly straight line.


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## Stevieray

I get your point Minnewaska. It doesn't seem like it would be that hard to get over to Miami from the West Coast, or somewhere like Key Largo to go across to Bahamas, though it would take a little time. But lots of folks are dead set against the idea of doing that in a boat like a C22. People do it, yes, and after I sailed again for a season or two, I could probably be tempted to join a flotilla on a longer weather window. But, first, I need a boat and some water under my keel for a while. And its easy enough to move around to new places if you have time. Just getting to that point will be a breath of life in itself! Cheers!


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## Minnewaska

For sure, with a 22 ft boat, you'll want to be pretty confident in the weather window. From the East Coast of FL, you can generally get to your first out island in a day. Bimini is often made from southern FL in daylight. Easy to plan for the Gulf Stream, etc. To get around from the West Coast will take many days, depending on how far up you are, making planning harder. 

Still good to hear you're getting back on the water. You'll figure it out. Enjoy.


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## Sal Paradise

I mean, sure it is doable and may Cat 22's have sailed to the Bahamas and cruised there and returned. Mine will not be one of them. Mathematically, you can just divide the distance by 5 mph and motor on a calm day with 5 gallons of water and 50 packs of ramen noodles. The discomfort and risk are not worth it to me. Also, the better you get at sailing it, the better the boat is. We have had our 6 years, a couple of times my sons and I have gone and when its blowing 25 mph and came back with every inch of the boat drenched in either water or beer. And laughed hard at the 5' waves, you'd be amazed how that boat will just truck through. So it sails better through the years but it never gets any more comfortable and it never has any more room. Took it on a week long camping trip once on Lake George. The entire cabin was full of stuff.

Unless I was trailering it, I'd look at a 25 or a 27.

I should add one useful bit of info - you can buy lots of parts for the cat 22 all over; ebay CL and FB as well as from marinas and Catalina themselves. Sometimes the parts are very inexpensive. So, maintaining or upgrading is fairly cheap.


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## RegisteredUser

Pick the right anchorages and youre ok.
Thats key.
Shallow boat allows special anchorages
Cant do that and you will be beat the hell up....

Good motor is very important if you decide to make that jump.
Really would be the best of the bahamas....a great trip


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## Arcb

My maintenance costs on my trailer sailer(21 ft) are similar to Sals, a bit higher because I get my trailer and outboard serviced at a shop. But it is still only about $600 a year.

My insurance is nil, because I dont have any (gasp, hiss), but this may not always be possible because some marinas require proof of insurance. We don't use marinas. The boat and trailer are covered under my auto policy when on the highway.

I pay $40/year for unlimited launching at my local conservation area. I also pay $200/year for unlimited moorage on my local federal canal. The boat is stored in my driveway when not in use, which doesnt really sound feasible for your Florida plans.

I guess that puts my annual ownership costs at around $840/year.

We use our boat quite a bit. I guess we spent about a month and a half cruising on her this year over two trips. We are 4 plus a dog. We rarely sleep onboard though, we always try to find a beach to tent on, which gets easier the more you do it. 

My electronics are dead simple. Electronic charts on my cell phone, hand held vhf, handheld GPS. Autopilot is a length of 1/8th nylon line and a bungee cord. 

One upgrade I did this year that makes a nice difference is a rudimentary solar system. The solar system (not counting battery which I already owned) cost me about $150. 20 Watt Solar Panel, Charge Controller, 150 watt inverter with 80ah AGM battery. We went a month this summer without external electricity and that solar system allowed us to keep charged 2 cell phones, a camera (I use my camera a lot) and allowed us to run a baby monitor in the tent all night every night.


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## RegisteredUser

If you are amenable to camping, a beachable boat allows you much freedom amd opportunities.
Plus you can unload extra toys on to land during your stops


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## Stevieray

I camp all the time. Van camp, backpack, canoe camp, kayak camp. Love to kayak fish, surf fish, boat fish. Used to skin dive some when I was younger. I gather you're thinking more of a true centerboarder. I beach camped in my Ensenada 20 on occasion. Just had to be a bit careful. Sand was ok. Shells, pebbles, small rocks, I anchored off a bit. That boat was an old tank though. They were designed by Lyle Hess. Sold it when I left NY a number of years ago. Nothing like a campfire on the beach. ⛵🔥🌴


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## Arcb

Check out the Dinghy Cruising Companion by Roger Barnes. Dont let the title throw you off, he covers both dinghies and trailer sailer type stuff too. Its not just full of useful knowledge, but he is also pretty entertaining. He covers everything; anchoring, trailering, navigation, purchasing, mast stepping, alternative rigs, beach camping.

Some of the stuff is a bit funny, because he does most of his sailing in England and France (trailers his boat across the channel on a car ferry), but most of it applies to North America too.

He has some stuff on Youtube under Roger Barnes.

The book is about $25 on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.ca/Dinghy-Cruising-Companion-advice-sailing/dp/1408179164


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## Stevieray

Ha ha. I think I've watched about every video Roger Barnes did on Dingggggeeee cruising. Highly entertaining chap. I love his boat too. Simple lug rig, boomless if I remember correctly. And an excellent boom tent. Haven't read is book. I'll try to order it on Amazon. I'm sure he's at least as witty in writing. Cheers!


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## Stevieray

Guess he rigged that over the gaff?


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## Arcb

His Lug Sail? I beleive the upper spar on a lug rig is refferred to as the "yard", same as the spars on the top of square sails.

My boat is gaff rigged, its a lot more complex than a lug. It consists of two booms, an upper and a lower (the upper is the gaff), there are some other differences too (gaff jaws, topping lift, two halyards). Lug rigs are really popular in cruising type dinghys right now because they are super simple, both to build and to sail. 

Roger explains all the pros and cons of different rig types in his book, I think he dedicates a whole chapter to it (I dont have my copy with me right now).


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## Stevieray

Yeah, wasn't sure about that? Couldn't picture the rig in my mind either. Just remembered that it was simple and looked easy to manage.


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## Arcb

Its an interesting rig. I started to build a Goat Island Skiff, which is designed by a well respected modern boat designer and experienced dinghy racer. The boat called for a hollow birds mouth wood mast and a lug rig. I thought it seemed like a lot of work to end up with such a simple rig. Chatted some folks familiar with the design and I was assured the lug rig would give me the performance I wanted. In addition to being super simple to sail, the mast is really short, which allows both the mast and yard to be stored inside an open boat while the boat is rowed. The simplicity and short mast not only allow for easy stepping at the boat ramp, but also allow for the boat to be rigged and derigged at sea by one person. If you have done some trailer sailing then you know how evil stepping a marconi rigged sloop can be alone with no crane, even on a small boat.

Any way, I never finished the boat because the price of good plywood is so ridiculous, but I might do it one day.


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## Stevieray

Gig Harbor skiff's a nice boat. Seems popular too.
I bought the plans for a Selway Fisher Rhum Dinghy about 15 years ago. 11,6 v bottom. Moved a couple of times and lost track of the plans. Pretty sure they're in my storage locker. If they turn up while I'm still warm I'd like to build it. I love to row too and a simple rig for this little gem would make me smile.


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## Stevieray

Cartoppable too.


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## Arcb

Do you know about Matt Laydens designs? Thay are 14 ft micro cruisers with water ballast. I think they are a pretty straight forward plywood build. People take them to the Bahamas.

They are kind of a modified junk rig that can be sailed from the cockpit, beached and lived aboard, sort of. I have raced with them. They are quick enough (quick enough to beat me any way, which isnt a very high standard).

Maybe not the 23-27 footer you had in mind, but I find exploring different designs helps me to think.

Paradox


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## Stevieray

Yep. Spent a lot of time on the microcruiser subject too. In fact I wound up building a micro of my own design, which may never see the water. And I must say, its an odyssey to build a boat. I'm not sure what to say about it at this point. I'll attempt to post a photo or two, just for verification. 😆


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## Arcb

Why dont you just finish the build? You are almost there. Its a hell of a lot nicer than the boat I built. (PDracer)

Your boat looks like a nice skiff or sharpie, only needs a stick, sail and rudder. Get a sail from duckworks if you dont have a sewing machine?


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## Stevieray

I may. But I'm tired. I didn't realize how much it would take out of me. Kind of kept me from sailing in a way. I could have at least been dinghy sailing while the kids were in school. But that energy and resources went into this. And I had to store it 3 years after a divorce. So its been a long haul. Sometimes I want to burn it. Cutting it up would kill me. But I need to get in a boat again very soon.


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## Stevieray

Of course I'm not really going to burn it. Just a frustrating series of events. And circumstances have changed. I want a bigger platform than that boat provides. Its only 13.5 feet. I can finish it yes but I'd be more likely to if I had a boat to sail I think. All work and no play....😟


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## Arcb

Fair enough. 

Any way, you will figure it out


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## Stevieray

I always had hoped to have more time to sail. I love being on water and I never really liked motor boats. Though I liked small boats with outboards. I used to lock the tiller on my 5hp on my aluminum, run it wide open and stand up and steer it by shifting my weight from side to side. Like a motorized surfboard. Yeah, if I hit anything I wouldn't be here but after a while I liked to hear the sound of water on a Hull. I could lash my tiller on the Ensenada, stand on the bow holding the forestay and steer that boat too. Better, because I was moving over the water almost silently and all I could hear was the bow wave and the wind. Nothing else like it. Not so much that I'm a good sailor. Would love to try! Just can't get it out of my bones though.


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## Minnewaska

Stevieray said:


> .....I was moving over the water almost silently and all I could hear was the bow wave and the wind.....


Absent being up there in harsh conditions, it's actually the place I feel most like I'm sailing on the whole boat. From the cockpit, I am doing the sailing, not actually sailing. At the bow, I'm flying in the wind. Love it.

I don't get up there, with our 135 furling deck sweeper very much, unless motoring. Even then, I love standing with my arm wrapped around the forestay. Can't hear the motor at all. Love it.

Hope you find your next boat soon.


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## Sal Paradise

I bought my Cat 22 while I was supporting 2 kids in college ( plus one in flight school!) at the same time and I was completely broke. Got it for like $1k on the trailer. Had to be cleaned, put together and gone over. Needed new tires just to get home. Replaced one frayed lower stay and I replaced the backstay just because. You can do something like that, as I did, for really almost nothing if you are handy and resourceful. 

Now that the kids are graduated I actually do have money for something bigger, I am sort of balking at the storage costs, and risks of a bigger boat. Like - what if I can't sell it? Plus, I see little reason to sell a great sailing boat just for.... one boat buck ( $1k). I am one mile from the Hudson and I keep the boat in the Rondout, which as you know is a great little harbor. Now they are saying Kingston is the new Brooklyn. We will see - but it is picturesque and has a lot of historic buildings and is super sheltered. There are now 2 or 3 sailing schools, and a big very active sailing club with Regatta racing. Its nice. My marina is cheap and super friendly. 

I purchased a Simrad Tiller pilot on ebay for like $100. The thing is absolutely great. Now that I have that I will never own a sailboat without an autopilot.

Marco island Florida looks like a good jumping off point for a small sailboat. With the swing keel up the C22 draws about 3 feet( fixed rudder) so I can imagine gunkholing in the Keys. The pop up rudder models draw 2 feet.


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## SanderO

Sal Paradise said:


> I bought my Cat 22 while I was supporting 2 kids in college ( plus one in flight school!) at the same time and I was completely broke. Got it for like $1k on the trailer. Had to be cleaned, put together and gone over. Needed new tires just to get home. Replaced one frayed lower stay and I replaced the backstay just because. You can do something like that, as I did, for really almost nothing if you are handy and resourceful.
> 
> Now that the kids are graduated I actually do have money for something bigger, I am sort of balking at the storage costs, and risks of a bigger boat. Like - what if I can't sell it? Plus, I see little reason to sell a great sailing boat just for.... one boat buck ( $1k). I am one mile from the Hudson and I keep the boat in the Rondout, which as you know is a great little harbor. Now they are saying Kingston is the new Brooklyn. We will see - but it is picturesque and has a lot of historic buildings and is super sheltered. There are now 2 or 3 sailing schools, and a big very active sailing club with Regatta racing. Its nice. My marina is cheap and super friendly.
> 
> I purchased a Simrad Tiller pilot on ebay for like $100. The thing is absolutely great. Now that I have that I will never own a sailboat without an autopilot.
> 
> Marco island Florida looks like a good jumping off point for a small sailboat. With the swing keel up the C22 draws about 3 feet( fixed rudder) so I can imagine gunkholing in the Keys. The pop up rudder models draw 2 feet.


No reason to sell what works for you... But you are aware of the limitations re cruising both boat size and location. Chartering may be a way to scratch the cruising itch... or as the present on is quite inexpensive maybe buy a larger cruiser moor or dock in a fun cruising area and see how that works. If it does you may want to sell the 22 or not. Another possibility is to get a share or partnership on a cruising boat... admittedly harder to come by, by cheaper and less / shared responsibilities.


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## paulinnanaimo

Sal

I'm curious about the tiller pilot. Do you use it for just motoring or for sailing also. If for sailing, does your battery not deplete? I haven't seriously considered one because of the battery issue.


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## Sal Paradise

paulinnanaimo said:


> Sal
> 
> I'm curious about the tiller pilot. Do you use it for just motoring or for sailing also. If for sailing, does your battery not deplete? I haven't seriously considered one because of the battery issue.


Paul,

Once you have it, you will never be without it. Right now my battery does deplete after several trips and I then plug a 110V charger in and replenish it. My outboard doesn't charge the battery. This year, one of the boat presents will be solar panel and charge controller. You also learn to check the balance of the sail plan - simply take the TP off foor a minute and steer by hand. If relatively balanced, the battery will last a long time.

I use it a lot motoring and for sailing in mild conditions. Also, when single handing I motor into the wind and set the sails while the TP holds the boat into the wind. When the wind is above 15 mph and especially if the wind shifts around or gusts, then the TP is too slow and you can do much better sailing by hand.


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## Sal Paradise

SanderO said:


> No reason to sell what works for you... But you are aware of the limitations re cruising both boat size and location. Chartering may be a way to scratch the cruising itch... or as the present on is quite inexpensive maybe buy a larger cruiser moor or dock in a fun cruising area and see how that works. If it does you may want to sell the 22 or not. Another possibility is to get a share or partnership on a cruising boat... admittedly harder to come by, by cheaper and less / shared responsibilities.


Many do moor for free in the Rondout creek. There is a free anchorage as well. I see 30 - 40 foot boats anchored there all year..The marinas offer a $250/ year dingy dock and there are two public launches for dingys but no storage on either one.

I have it really good here, but you are right its limited. Its a mystery how I will move ahead. I'd love to have a boat here for June and September and move it out to the sound in July and August. Many cheap boats available but the problem of where to keep the boat is complex and expensive. I am thinking the eastern half of the sound.


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## SanderO

Sal Paradise said:


> Many do moor for free in the Rondout creek. There is a free anchorage as well. I see 30 - 40 foot boats anchored there all year..The marinas offer a $250/ year dingy dock and there are two public launches for dingys but no storage on either one.
> 
> I have it really good here, but you are right its limited. Its a mystery how I will move ahead. I'd love to have a boat here for June and September and move it out to the sound in July and August. Many cheap boats available but the problem of where to keep the boat is complex and expensive. I am thinking the eastern half of the sound.


Cheap likely means projects... so don't forget that. It's probably a buyer's market. Run your numbers.


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## Stevieray

Speaking of projects.... Can you overlay the cabin sides of a C22 with 1/4 or 3/8s Lexan (thrubolting and caulking with silicone), instead of restoring existing aluminum portlights. I was just watching a video of a guy repairing leaky portlights on a 70s C22. He did an amazing job and it looked tedious and labor intensive. Just curious if that's a bad idea?


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## Minnesail

Stevieray said:


> Speaking of projects.... Can you overlay the cabin sides of a C22 with 1/4 or 3/8s Lexan (thrubolting and caulking with silicone), instead of restoring existing aluminum portlights. I was just watching a video of a guy repairing leaky portlights on a 70s C22. He did an amazing job and it looked tedious and labor intensive. Just curious if that's a bad idea?


I think you could. Mine don't leak, but they're kind of ugly so I've thought about doing it just for aesthetic reasons.

If you're used to camping I think you could spend a great deal of time on a Catalina 22 without too much trouble. I'm 5' 9" and I sleep well on mine. During the summer I spend a lot of time aboard, including a lot of nights. It doesn't feel too cramped. When my wife joins me it gets cozy. We've done a long weekend, I don't think the two of us would want to do too much longer than that.

If I were thinking months, though, I'd look at the Catalina 25. Still trailerable, but much much more livable.


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## hellosailor

"Can you overlay the cabin sides of a C22 with 1/4 or 3/8s Lexan (thrubolting and caulking with silicone), instead of restoring existing aluminum portlights."
Silicone does NOT form a permanent bond to plexiglass or lexan, it should never be used on them unless you want a leak.
You can either buy the correct special adhesives, or use 3M VHB tape, which may outperform the adhesives. It is used to hold skyscraper windows in place, it is not the same doublestick tape that you buy at the hardare store.

Similarly, you can't just through-bolt those plastics. They expand and contract as the temperature changes, about 1/16" per foot. The bolt becomes a hard point and the plastic starts to crack around it, unless you overdrill the hole so it is much larger than the screw, and then use a proper washer and larger screw head to allow the plastic to slide around under it as it works. This is course also may require an o-ring or other sealant, but that's also well documented by the plastics makers.

Anybody can "repair" a portlight, but unless it is done correctly, it will be leaking again, sooner than you expect. For sure. Done right, it can stay dry (and uncracked!) for 25 years or longer.


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## RegisteredUser

Fix each one properly....one every 2 weeks.
Eventually, all will be right...never to be a problem again


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## Stevieray

Gotcha. Thanks. That 3m tape looks pretty heavy duty. Just reading some of the specs on it. Good for many things.


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## Stevieray

Posting this as an update. After a year of seemingly endless, fruitless searching,. I finally found the right boat....I hope. Its a 77 Pearson 26. Just doing the paperwork over the next couple of weeks. Its already in water on the lower Potomac. I thought the owner and several others that I met at marina were great folks. Its 4 miles up a creek from the Potomac and maybe an hour sail to the Chesapeake. Skipper did a nice job maintaining boat. Dry bilge, no leaks, solid deck, no roller furler, 3 jibs and a spare main, 2 anchors, older Garmin chartplotter, raymarine 1 autopilot, solar panel and battery, 8hp Honda 4 stroke, manual marine head, 3 hp honda, 8' walker bay dink, bottom scraped and painted Spring, 2019. Under 3k and slip paid til March. I'm happy enough to stick around for a while in Spring and come back in Early Fall. No desire to cross oceans but I'm about as happy as can be right now.


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## chef2sail

Congrats ...Sounds great


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