# Liferaft Question



## bjung (Apr 8, 2009)

I am looking to buy a 4 person offshore liferaft. There is quite a difference in price between brands. Hopefully never to be used, but if it will, it better do it's job.
Any input regarding differrent brands etc. would be greatly appreciated.
Bernd
PSC 31


----------



## WanderingStar (Nov 12, 2008)

I bought a Viking Offshore. I liked the features, it seemed to have enough room and be strong. It was priced better than the competition. I got a good deal at the boatshow.


----------



## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

I second the Viking.


----------



## Wiley1 (Jul 20, 2009)

I bought the Givens Bouy back in 1976, I just looked at the current prices and had a bit of sticker shock. They were expensive back then but WOW the prices today. Still the big convincer for me was the insulated floor. I had worked on The TAPS project and had spent a couple of winters in Alaska. To me a huge problem is hypothermia so it was the insulated floor which sold me. At that time tht was a feature that Givens had and many/most did not. I also bought the 6 person model as I don't know how 4 people are supposed to survive in the small space of the four (any of the models designed for 4) especially if one is hurt and needs to be horizontal. Also I want to be able to save as much food water etc as possible and stuff takes space.

When it comes to servicing a liferaft check with your local major airport. All the rafts on international flights have to be serviced regularly and by dealing directly with the guys who do that servicing you can remove the middle man...that's the guy at the boat shop (that's where he will take your raft).

While in Hawaii I made friends with a guy who worked for such a facility. He shared with me some tricks to servicing life rafts and walked me thru doing it myself. I have repacked mine three times at quite a savings (needs it again). Since the raft is mine and I am the one who will suffer or benefit from customizing my raft I changed out alot of the included "provisions" and updated to a water maker (rather than a fixed number of cans of water) and included a deck of cards (plasticized) with cribbage board. All in all the hardest part about repacking one's own raft is getting it back into the canister (the same configuration of folds etc. as it came out). 

There are a couple of tricks to servicing a raft: Don't pull the cord to inflate, this freezes the material near the connection of the cylinder to fabric and one risks cracking (it only has to survive one fast inflation). And so inflate using the hand/foot pump to your inflatable boat. And take photos for each and every step (back when I first did mine I actually used a whole roll of film). The usual time left inflated with no loss of shape etc. is something like 24 hours. When ready to deflate, again use the hand pump but instead of inflation use it to deflate (extract the air) from the raft And as you do recreate the same folds as the raft was packed originally. Other than that it's a piece of cake, the cylinder has a gram weight and so simply weigh the whole and if it's off by much take it to a testing facility where they will test and refill the cylinder to the marked weight. Some may want to do this part anyway as a check that the valve on the cylinder works, I did mine the first time. 

This is more info than you wanted but I included it because I would have no problem going with a "second hand" raft, provided I could service and inspect it prior to purchace.
Hope this helps.
Wiley


----------



## casioqv (Jun 15, 2009)

If I had the budget for a real life raft I'd buy the Portland Pudgy. It sounds a lot more durable, seaworthy, and navigable than those round inflatable things.

After reading "adrift" by Steven Callahan I don't think I'd consider buying one of those typical round safety rafts. The fact that they're easy to pop, and can't make significant headway towards safety really lowers your chances of surviving or being comfortable before rescue.


----------



## T37SOLARE (Feb 1, 2008)

From everything I've heard and read, nothing compares with the Givens...


----------



## dieselboy (Aug 29, 2009)

Holy cow!!! great system and any one to use a C130 to test the thing...


----------



## casioqv (Jun 15, 2009)

The Givens looks very stable and looks like it would have a really low drift rate. Great if people come looking for you, but bad if you need to survive, navigate, and make landfall on your own.


----------



## bottleinamessage (Aug 6, 2007)

I also bought a Viking Rescue Pro 4 person. The price was attractive, but another point that influenced me was that it's the only raft that is self righting upon deployment. Also being vacumn packed inside the canister increases the servicing requirement to 3 years.


----------



## Wiley1 (Jul 20, 2009)

Bottleinamessage, This is not to get on your case, so please don't take it that way. I did a small amount of research to see what the Viking people had to say about their rafts and they made no mention that I could find of vacuum packing. So I guess my first question: is vacuum packing more like ground coffee in a can or more like vacuum sealing, like coffee beans in a bag? One would think it would be like beans in a bag if it were a soft valise.

Here's the link to their brochure:
RescYou™ liferafts

However, I do not understand the value in having a liferaft vacuum packed. Here are my issues/questions:

1) Coated fabrics tend to pin hole when folded then folded again. Such folds put alot of stress on the coating and fabric on the outside of the final fold. The idea of compressing that fold even harder as is the case of vacuum packing would perhaps tend to exacerbate the problem of pin holing.

2) Because of the harder compression the plasticized material would perhaps be more prone to sticking/welding/glueing together. And should one need to do the rapid inflate (pop the raft) where the fabric is near frozen in the areas near the valve (due to expansion of CO2) would this cause more possibility of these stuck together coatings separating from the fabric?

3) And in conjunction with the above, the relative flexibility of many coatings is due to plasticizers in the plastic. As they evaporate out coatings get brittle. Usually lower atmospheric pressures cause lower evaporative temperatures (for instance, water boils at a lower temp at altitude etc.) So does placing the plasticized fabric under a vacuum cause the plasticizers to more rapidly come out of the coating? Perhaps gluing the layers together? Or do the coatings tend to dry out and become more brittle sooner?

These are just some questions that popped into my head when you mentioned vacuum packed liferafts. Personally I think carefully packed in a dry nitrogen atmosphere might be better than vacuum packed.

Bests,
Wiley


----------



## sabalo (Sep 21, 2009)

I also bought a viking rescyou 4 man offshore in a valise for my pacific crossing last year. All I can say is that it sat in the pilot berth doing nothing very nicely!
BTW if you want to buy it let me know (Ideas on how to get it from perth to the states would also be apprieciated)


----------



## bjung (Apr 8, 2009)

Thanks for all the input! The Givens seems to be top of the line (and the only USCG approved liferaft), but twice as much $$ as the Viking Rescyou Pro.  My wife said to just buy an inflatable mattress and using the saved cash to increase my life insurance policy. That's another way of looking at it..:laugher I think I will opt for the Viking, for financial reasons, and hopefully will not be floating in the Atlantic, cursing my frugality.
Bernd
PSC 31, Asylum


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

bjung said:


> Thanks for all the input! The Givens seems to be top of the line (and the only USCG approved liferaft), but twice as much $$ as the Viking Rescyou Pro.  My wife said to just buy an inflatable mattress and using the saved cash to increase my life insurance policy. That's another way of looking at it..:laugher I think I will opt for the Viking, for financial reasons, and hopefully will not be floating in the Atlantic, cursing my frugality.
> Bernd
> PSC 31, Asylum


HAHAHAH!

Funny. That was a good one with the inflateable mattress.

I bought a 6 person Switlik. Darned expensive. Remember that a 4 person, unless you are really coastal, typically will not keep 4 people. You really need to up to 6.

Also, why get a cheap life raft which would have questionable results? The exception would be if you were just coastal. I figure for most of us, the odds are that you will simply hit a shipping container or whale or lose a T-hull adn sink. Not many of us do anything really hard offshore, and when we do, we pick our weather windows very closely. SO I guess I could see the point of a 'cheap' liferaft, but if that is the case, why not just your inflateable?

I have been offshore in storms. In one in particular, where we thought another buddy boat had a 22 yo woman break a rib, I will tell you that your liferaft better be REALLY stable. That video of Givens where one of them was flipping over would probably have been more dangerous to be in then not using one at all - especialyl when the seas are square and breaking.

So, on the subject of what to get, if you are going to be doing anything that would prevent you from really choosing your weather window, choose your liferaft by ability and not cost. Otherwise, what's the point? If you are simply coastal and can choose a weather window, I guess anything with an orange top and a 6 pack of beer will do.

My opinions.

- CD

PS Please note that you can rent liferafts for crossings. That may be cheaper unless you plan to use it all the time. Also, many of the liferafts now have pushed their maintenance to 3 years, not 12 months (like mine was). THe cost of poppng and re-packing that thing is considerable. I believe Switlik wanted $600-800 dollars. And, like I said, it was annual. Another comment is that depending on where you put that thing, it is a bad observatioal hazard.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

T37SOLARE said:


> From everything I've heard and read, nothing compares with the Givens...


Hey T37. I googled Givens Liferafts, and came up with this from a different board. Maybe wroth thinking about?

_I posted here about my problems with Givens Life Rafts in the Jan - Feb 2008 time frame.
We bought their BEST raft. 6 Man Deluxe for off shore. It should have been their best effort and maybe it was. It arrived at the end of May 2004. $5,000 plus shipping as I recall. Please understand, I have been ill for the last few years. I just detoxed off morphine due to severe Respiratory problems. My memory is not back yet, so I use terms like approximate or about for dates.

When we took our Givens Deluxe Raft to Sal's in Alameda, he unpacked it with my wife and I watching. Here is the email I sent to Lori and her reply on Feb 20, 2008:

Lori Perrino wrote:
Please provide your telephone # so someone can call you regarding this emai. Thank You.
On Feb 14, 2008, at 11:08 PM, Dllfo wrote:
>
Hi Lori,
Dave ____ here. We received our Givens 6-man Deluxe Off Shore raft at the very end of May 2004. It is serial number 3398. We were headed up the coast on June 1, 2004. I became ill later in the year and we never used the the raft -- which, actually is always good. As people say, a life raft is sort of like life insurance, good to have, but you really don't want to use it. Anyway, we stored it in our house since 2004, waiting until I was healthy enough to need it.
>>
>> We took it for a re-pack and found some things we don't understand. For example, the bottle that inflates the raft was made in 5 of 2000, which is stamped on it, and we received it in late May of 2004. We received it within the 5 year hydrostat laws, but expected NEW materials when we bought your Deluxe raft. The two oars look used. I have photos if you want to see them. The fishing packet was dated 1988 and was open. Again, I took a photo of it so you can see what I am talking about if you wish. Also, on the PRV valves, there is supposed to be a PRV plug, but there weren't any plugs included. We were told the sea anchor is supposed to deploy when we activate the inflation of the raft, but the sea anchor was pushed up inside the interior and would have to be manually "tossed out". Again, I took lots of photos if you have any questions.
>>
Instead of needing a Hydrostat next year, 5 years after we bought your new, Deluxe raft, we find it expired before the end of the first year we got it. And the valve used on the CO2 cylinder back then cannot be used anymore. It is a Sparklee. I think the new one is called SEI. I am hoping you will replace the old items with 2004 items for us.

Thank You,

Dave

Lori offered to send a new one. Frank apparently overrode that decision. They promised to send the parts, apologized for the crap they stuck us with, made excuses, etc. They only set the valve. I am stuck with a bill for $861 for a hydro on the tank, etc. Sal was kind enough to replace quite a few things from his stock.

GIVENS CANNOT BE TRUSTED BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE. THEY PROMISE YOU PARTS, THEY APPEAR TO BE APPALLED AND CLAIM THEY WANT TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT, THEN THEY CONVENIENTLY FORGET TO SUPPORT THEIR EQUIPMENT. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. YOU ARE WELCOME TO BUY THEIR LIFE RAFTS, BUT WILL YOU FIND AN OPEN FISHING KIT FROM 1988 IN IT? WILL YOUR OARS BE SO OLD THEY MAY OR MAY NOT WORK?

Please, if you have loved ones with you, find the local "repack" shop and talk to them.
Switlik SAR is supposed to be extremely well built (more than one person told me this would be their first choice if they had to use one), but most of the people I have spoken to said most of the rafts built today, including Givens are ok. They inflate, they float,
but what they pack inside can make a huge difference.

I WANT TO FILE COMPLAINTS AGAINST GIVENS. DO ANY OF YOU KNOW WHO I SHOULD FILE THIS COMPLAINT WITH? SF USCG did not want to hear about it. Not their area. NOAA? If you do not want to post it here, please PM me or email me with suggestions. After watching Air Force survival films and going through water survival, etc. I know I could never, ever recommend Givens Life Rafts. IF you have one from the factory and it has not been repacked by adults, you may be kidding yourself as to whether you will survive with it. I hope my raft was an aberration, but with the lies from Lori and Frank, I have zero faith in any product coming from them. Little or no support is what Givens is about. _


----------



## Paul_L (Sep 16, 2004)

Cruisingdad said:


> ...Also, why get a cheap life raft which would have questionable results? ...


So you can take the money that you saved and do the things on the boat that may actually prevent you from ever having to use the liferaft. Thorough preparations of the crew, quality and adequate fire fighting gear, de-watering systems and plan, epirb and communications.....
Since the liferaft is the last item to be used, the money is probably better spent on ensuring the items used before all do their job. Then if you have an extra 3 grand left over, buy a 5 grand liferaft instead of a 2 grand liferaft.

Paul L


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Paul_L said:


> So you can take the money that you saved and do the things on the boat that may actually prevent you from ever having to use the liferaft. Thorough preparations of the crew, quality and adequate fire fighting gear, de-watering systems and plan, epirb and communications.....
> Since the liferaft is the last item to be used, the money is probably better spent on ensuring the items used before all do their job. Then if you have an extra 3 grand left over, buy a 5 grand liferaft instead of a 2 grand liferaft.
> 
> Paul L


I agree Paul. Good thoughts. But, things can happen. Whales, shipping conatiners, a failed Thull, collision, etc. Unlikely, but possible.

I have kids so I have a higher level of responsibility then many of you others do. That said, we hated that liferaft and thought it was a major PITA. And, unfortunately, I will have to get another one and hate it still. God forbid I am ever glad I bought it.

- CD


----------



## bjung (Apr 8, 2009)

CD, I also came across the same thread on the Givens, and some other comments on their lack of responsiveness to customers.. But as we all know, online complaints are easily raised and their validity is hard to assess. Who knows...??
I wouldn't consider the Viking a cheap alternative, as it is pretty much in line with other rafts( the Switlik is just a little more), but considerably cheaper than the Givens (most of them are). It is also the only other self-righting liferaft ( correct me if i am wrong!?). The comment on the 4 person raft is a valid point, and I am opting for a 6 person raft ( to have enough room for the beer  ). The obstructional hazard the canister poses is real, but how practical is a 90 lb valise stored below?
Bernd


----------



## negrini (Apr 2, 2008)

Since it's your life playing here, you tend to go for the best feature, more rugged construction, best in class, etc ... In my perspective, although I don't wanna threat my life with junk solutions, I believe Callahan situation will not repeat easily, considering Epirb, VHF, Iridium technology of these days. I use a "fair" Plastimo offshore, plus added handheld watermaker, portable VHF, Epirb and a Pelican case with Iridium setup. I feel myself confident it will work at almos 99% of rough conditions. PS another IMPORTANT point, I just red Heavy Weather Sailing book, by Peter Bruce, and learned to never, ever install a liferaft on deck. If your boat doesn't have a specific location to install it, I prefer a valise model, and install it on a well protected cockpit locker.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

bjung said:


> CD, I also came across the same thread on the Givens, and some other comments on their lack of responsiveness to customers.. But as we all know, online complaints are easily raised and their validity is hard to assess. Who knows...??
> I wouldn't consider the Viking a cheap alternative, as it is pretty much in line with other rafts( the Switlik is just a little more), but considerably cheaper than the Givens (most of them are). It is also the only other self-righting liferaft ( correct me if i am wrong!?). The comment on the 4 person raft is a valid point, and I am opting for a 6 person raft ( to have enough room for the beer  ). The obstructional hazard the canister poses is real, but how practical is a 90 lb valise stored below?
> Bernd


A 90lb valise is practical. If your boat is sinking, even my 120lb wife would get that thing up the steps! I also like that because it cannot be washed off the boat AND (and read this carefully) it cannot be stolen. You better thak that into consideration, depending on where you are cruising. Those things, even the cheap ones, are many thousands.

The negative of it being down below, and the only one I can think of, is that if your boat were to suddenly sink, it would be worthless. However, the only way I cna think of a boat sinking that quickly is a very, very large wave breaking on her, or being struck by a large ship. If it were the large, breaking wave, surely you had enough sense ahead of time to get your ditch bag and stuff ready to go and the valise is in a quick to deploy location. The types of storms that produce those waves do not exactly sneak up on you. As for a collision, you might wonder that if it were strong enough to snap your boat in two, whether you would survive it anyways. I don't know.

I will proabably go with the canister again. I do this because I have kids and I will have other things that will occupy my time in order to abandon ship. My boat is also a larger boat than before (and I believe larger than yours) which allows for more room and for it to be out of the way. I also have twin steering, so I am off to one side typically. Again, my circumstances are different than yours and most peoples.

I would not buy one without a 36 month repack interval - no matter what.

These are just my opinions. You need to do what gives you peace of mind. The ultimate responsibility for crew and vessel safety lies with you. I honestly hope it is the most money you ever wasted.

- CD


----------



## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

What's the lifespan on these anyway? I can't imagine that they last forever, even repacked per requirements.


----------



## Paul_L (Sep 16, 2004)

Cruisingdad said:


> A 90lb valise is practical. If your boat is sinking, even my 120lb wife would get that thing up the steps! I also like that because it cannot be washed off the boat AND (and read this carefully) it cannot be stolen. You better thak that into consideration, depending on where you are cruising. Those things, even the cheap ones, are many thousands.
> 
> The negative of it being down below, and the only one I can think of, is that if your boat were to suddenly sink, it would be worthless. However, the only way I cna think of a boat sinking that quickly is a very, very large wave breaking on her, or being struck by a large ship.....


There are clearly trade-offs to deck mount vs valise in cabin mount. We usually think of sinking as the reason to board a liferaft, but another big reason is fire. A fire that gets out of control may not sink the boat but it will kill you if you don't get off till it burns out. Getting a valise out from a cabin on fire may not be practical. I would also question your comment about how easy it is to move a 90lb valise from down below. The conditions you will be doing this in are less than ideal. Crew may be injured and are likely at least bruised by this point. Gear may be in the way and water on the sole and steps. The mast may be gone giving the boat a violent roll. Saying never mount a liferaft on deck is silly. Where do all the commercial fisherman mount theirs -- and they use them a lot more than cruisers. A valise in a dedicated cockpit locker would be nice. But most cruising boats don't have this locker. I ended up with a deck mount.

Paul L


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Paul_L said:


> There are clearly trade-offs to deck mount vs valise in cabin mount. We usually think of sinking as the reason to board a liferaft, but another big reason is fire. A fire that gets out of control may not sink the boat but it will kill you if you don't get off till it burns out. Getting a valise out from a cabin on fire may not be practical. I would also question your comment about how easy it is to move a 90lb valise from down below. The conditions you will be doing this in are less than ideal. Crew may be injured and are likely at least bruised by this point. Gear may be in the way and water on the sole and steps. The mast may be gone giving the boat a violent roll. Saying never mount a liferaft on deck is silly. Where do all the commercial fisherman mount theirs -- and they use them a lot more than cruisers. A valise in a dedicated cockpit locker would be nice. But most cruising boats don't have this locker. I ended up with a deck mount.
> 
> Paul L


I don't understand. WHere did I say never mount it on the deck? What I did say is that a valise down below has many positives, and depending on where you cruise and how, may have more positives then a deck mount.

As you look back on my picture, notice that I did in fact mount mine on the deck. However, I do not believe that is the right solution for everybody and I squarely stand behind that statement. I agree with your assesment of having difficulty getting the thing up the companionway steps and the circumstances that might make it dufficult. I alluded to those in my thread. However, what I was saying is not to understimate the power of adrenaline when your life depends on it.

- CD


----------



## Paul_L (Sep 16, 2004)

negrini said:


> ...PS another IMPORTANT point, I just red Heavy Weather Sailing book, by Peter Bruce, and learned to *never, ever install a liferaft on deck*. If your boat doesn't have a specific location to install it, I prefer a valise model, and install it on a well protected cockpit locker.


CD,
I was referring to the above comment. Not something you said.

Paul L


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Paul_L said:


> CD,
> I was referring to the above comment. Not something you said.
> 
> Paul L


Paul, I apologize. I thought your comments were directed toward me.

- CD


----------



## negrini (Apr 2, 2008)

Paul L, I might have expressed wrong, meant never have it installed on deck was a lesson I learned, based solely on my reading conclusions and local Navy training. Not a statement. By the way, I sugested a deck locker or a transom locker (like many new design). Cabin stowed is against law in many commercial vessels and enforced in many countries. I do not recall any recreational offshore boat without a cockpit locker (ok, I might have a limited universe). If it's been used to hold different stuffs, I suggest to dedicate a space for you liferaft there, and make it a priority. Reading storms reports from Peter Bruce, Pardeys, Kim Taylor, Tony Farringtons, Larry Robbins, Ewen Southby, about dozen of cases (dozen, not eventual) where liferaft went washed out of deck and stainless steel attachment went simply torn by water. Fishing boat industry has changed dramatically last 10 years after MAIB Marine Accident Report 4/98. Also,the Marine Guidance Note MGN 104 (M+F), state the new rules for liferaft stowage on fishing vessels, although not enforced for vessels less than 40ft, where recommendation are made to stow it out of weather. Another interesting source is the Seafish Report No. SR533 (Fishing Authority) that mention waves and tangling situation. I suggest you read those reports and take your own conclusions ... as I might have, otherwise, get too freaky by them.


----------



## negrini (Apr 2, 2008)

Just found a very interesting article about this, know where ? Right here, at Sailnet (what a site hum?), reproduced by Practical Sailor contributor: "Life Raft Stowage: The Overlooked Necessity"

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-...4-life-raft-stowage-overlooked-necessity.html

worth a reading ....


----------



## Paul_L (Sep 16, 2004)

negrini said:


> Just found a very interesting article about this, know where ? Right here, at Sailnet (what a site hum?), reproduced by Practical Sailor contributor: "Life Raft Stowage: The Overlooked Necessity"
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-...4-life-raft-stowage-overlooked-necessity.html
> 
> worth a reading ....


That's a well thought out article.

Paul L


----------



## bjung (Apr 8, 2009)

negrini said:


> Just found a very interesting article about this, know where ? Right here, at Sailnet (what a site hum?), reproduced by Practical Sailor contributor: "Life Raft Stowage: The Overlooked Necessity"
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-...4-life-raft-stowage-overlooked-necessity.html
> 
> worth a reading ....


Good article, thanks...
I will be taking a closer look at my cockpit lockers and the valise size of a 6 person raft.
Bernd
PSC 31


----------



## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

bjung said:


> Good article, thanks...
> I will be taking a closer look at my cockpit lockers and the valise size of a 6 person raft.
> Bernd
> PSC 31


Bernd,

I would get a Winslow and put it in the shallow port cockpit locker. A 4-person soft valise should fit there.

If you need a 6-person, I would get a low-profile canister and mount it over the sea-hood. Or possibly get it in a soft valise and build a low-profile box/step to secure in/on the companion bridgedeck while underway (removed and stowed in port.)


----------



## bjung (Apr 8, 2009)

JohnRPollard said:


> Bernd,
> 
> I would get a Winslow and put it in the shallow port cockpit locker. A 4-person soft valise should fit there.
> 
> If you need a 6-person, I would get a low-profile canister and mount it over the sea-hood. Or possibly get it in a soft valise and build a low-profile box/step to secure in/on the companion bridgedeck while underway (removed and stowed in port.)


John,
I checked, and I can fit a 6 person valise in the aft cockpit locker, or as you said a 4 person in the port locker (only the winslow fits into the low profile). I have looked at the Winslow rafts and like their features, light weight and small valise size, but wanted a self righting raft after viewing of videos showing sailors righting rafts in calm water. Not something I would expect my son to do in rough weather, and certainly not something you can practice a few times.
Am I overvalueing this feature? 
Bernd


----------



## BudRICKETT (Sep 19, 2007)

Has anyone noticed that all the models have a big ENTER HERE sign?

Your boat has just sunk in shark infested waters, far from land, do you really need a big sign telling you to get aboard?:laugher


----------



## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

I checked the SSCA survey and Winslow was the most common brand used by the people in the survey


----------



## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

bjung said:


> John,
> I checked, and I can fit a 6 person valise in the aft cockpit locker, or as you said a 4 person in the port locker (only the winslow fits into the low profile). I have looked at the Winslow rafts and like their features, light weight and small valise size, but wanted a self righting raft after viewing of videos showing sailors righting rafts in calm water. Not something I would expect my son to do in rough weather, and certainly not something you can practice a few times.
> Am I overvalueing this feature?
> Bernd


I would be more concerned about how well the raft resisted capsize in the first instance. That is largely a function of the size and design of the ballast bags. My understanding was that Winslows rated highly in this respect.

Also, I may be unconventional in my thinking in this respect, but I tend to view a heavy weather situation as one of the least likely scenarios that I'd use a liferaft. I usually think of fire, uncontrolled flooding, or collision as the most likely causes for it to be used.

Sck5, that's interesting. Any chance you could get us a link to the data? Thanks.


----------



## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

Hi

I would have linked but they limit access to members and make you take the survey before giving access even then. But there is lots of interesting info in there on what the members have in terms of equipment, rigging, etc.


----------



## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

Practical Sailor ran a series of articles on rafts and raft materials back in '07 that may be of value to you. I recall they liked Winslow. Often you can get a used raft at a good price. They're bought for a specfic race or cruise and sold afterwards. Keep in mind that getting them tested can cost about $500 and more if gear in the raft like flares are over-age. You want to check that out with a servicing agent. Some newer rafts have extended thier servicing periods. If you get a raft serviced I've found it worthwhile it to be there and get some instruction provided by the shop. It's likely that's the only time you'll see it inflated.


----------



## bjung (Apr 8, 2009)

Just wanted to thank everybody for their input in making this decision. I ended up buying a Givens Buoy 6 person valise, to be stowed in the aft cockpit locker. It had some features I liked (selfrighting, 2000 lbs ballast and an emergency beer maker). The raft arrived by Roadway and was 20 min. late of the promised time, and shipping ($322) ended up free, imagine that. Which left enough for a couple of inflatable mattresses as backup, and a new (hopefully not leaking) raw water pump.
Thanks for the help,
Bernd
Asylum, PSC 31


----------



## braidmike (Sep 3, 2003)

I really appreciate the information on this thread, but I have a question I'm not sure there is an answer for... Someone somewhere probably tabulated how many times liferafts have been used. As a percentage of sailors, calculating days sailing, etc: What are the chances? I eat right, exercise regularly, and my doctor says statistically I'll live to a hundred. If someone watches the weather, sails conservatively, etc, does the chance of needing the liferaft approach that of being hit by a meteor? I know there are the unforseen random chances: Jworld sunk on the BajaHaHa a couple weeks ago after a collision with a whale. Does anyone know of any statistical analysis of these types of incidences? I fully respect anyones decision to carry a liferaft; we all have our personal margins of comfortability. My margins are pretty grey in this area due to the lack of 'hard' data.


----------



## bjung (Apr 8, 2009)

braidmike said:


> I really appreciate the information on this thread, but I have a question I'm not sure there is an answer for... Someone somewhere probably tabulated how many times liferafts have been used. As a percentage of sailors, calculating days sailing, etc: What are the chances? I eat right, exercise regularly, and my doctor says statistically I'll live to a hundred. If someone watches the weather, sails conservatively, etc, does the chance of needing the liferaft approach that of being hit by a meteor? I know there are the unforseen random chances: Jworld sunk on the BajaHaHa a couple weeks ago after a collision with a whale. Does anyone know of any statistical analysis of these types of incidences? I fully respect anyones decision to carry a liferaft; we all have our personal margins of comfortability. My margins are pretty grey in this area due to the lack of 'hard' data.


Mike, good point, the chances of needing a liferaft are propably pretty slim. If I was singlehanding 100% of the time, I propably wouldn't bother either ($5000 is a high price to pay for one's own life:laugher ) but the responsibility of a crew weighs in heavily... , especially if they are your own wife and kids 
Statistically speaking though, I think winning the lottery has better odds than needing a liferaft.
Bernd


----------



## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

The Coast Guard retrieves a lot of folks from life rafts. You might ask them for hard data.

Just anecdotally, we hear about plenty of rescues each year. There aren't really all that many people out sailing the open seas, so statistically I would suppose that the chance of needing one are MUCH better than winning the lottery.

Do you buy insurance? Maybe think of it that way.

And again, I think weather is probably the least likely reason you'll be getting into a liferaft. Fire, flooding, collision. Watching the weather won't help you with those.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Does anyone know of any statistical analysis of these types of incidences?"
That depends on how you want to make the figures lie or the liars figure, as they say.
I figure the odds of needing a life raft are 50-50. Either I will, or I won't. Whether 10 in a thousand boats use them, or ten in a million boats use them, I'm only concerned with whether *I* will need to use one, or not.

Having a life raft is like practicing safe sex. Do you feel lucky today?


----------



## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

In the Seven Seas Cruising Assoc. survey, out of 460 people who answered the question "Have you ever deployed your liferaft in a real situation?" a total of 4 (or 0.9%) answered Yes.

So, about 1 in a hundred. This is a survey of the membership of SSCA, many of whom actually live on their boats basically all the time.


----------



## braidmike (Sep 3, 2003)

Thanks to all for the info. The US Coast Guard site was not too informative (although quite interesting). I'll research the others a little more thoroughly. It is easy to look at it like 50/50, I'll either need it or I won't, but my personal decision process doesn't work like that. Looking at the possible causes for life raft deployment, I agree weather is not the top of the list. In fact it is pretty low. Collision at sea with large mammals or stray shipping containers seems to be the most probable. Would $5k spent on emergency repair & dewatering be better spent than on a raft? Not expecting anyone to answer that for me, just trying to explain my thought process and gain a bit of understanding from other people's thoughts and experiences. I'm thinking fire is highly dependant on prior preparation and adherence to protocol. But, just like the weather, there are those 'black swan' incidents that will jump up regardless... 
Having raised a family, I can certainly concur with anyone sailing with children taking more precautions than those of us past that age. I mean, I have netting on the lifelines just to protect my mutt!


----------



## tthomson (Jun 3, 2004)

I believe that there is a Givens/NASA connection that accounts for this life rafts stability. In fact I just found this: Apollo-Era Life Rafts Save Hundreds of Sailors


----------



## seafoam (Nov 29, 2009)

Has anyone repacked thier own liferaft? If so what are the problems encountered? And what to look for when inspecting the raft?


----------

