# Everglades Challenge Boat Thoughts



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

My sailing partner and I are preparing ourselves for the 2018 Everglades Challenge in the monohull sailboat class. I thought I would start a thread to see if any small boat sailors or dinghy racers have any thoughts on boat choice and why they would chose that boat.

We have a few criteria that I don't think are too constrictive. 

We both have small children and mortgages, so we are budget conscious, definitely a used boat.

We want a production boat. We considered building, but there just isn't time. We also don't want to buy some one else's home built project so that rules out boats like the Core Sound 17 or a Navigator, unless built at a professional level of quality. 

We're okay with wood or glass, if it's the right boat, but would prefer glass.

For any one unfamiliar with the Everglades Challenge it is a 300 mile non stop "challenge" down the coast of Florida with extended off shore sections (at least for the sailboats). The boat must be beach launch able. 

We do have a boat in mind but I don't want to say what it is and influence any answers given.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

Seapearl 21 - you can usually find a older used on for $5K or a little less.
Or maybe something a little faster - Flying Scot - with spinnaker - although they pound into chop but will outpoint a SP - 
Hobie 18 with wings - for much faster - but wetter - no way I would spend 3-4 days on a Hobie though - just depends on how much you want to rough it.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

No, we're not looking to rough it any more than we need to. 38 degree weather with 20 knots of wind and driving spray is roughing it enough for us already. We would actually prefer something with a bit of a tent or dodger for the off watch guy.

Sea Pearl is a boat we have considered. Heavy though. A smaller equivalent would be ideal.

We have considered a traditional dinghy like a flying Scott, but smaller due to weight. An Enterprise was on our list for a while, but we crossed it off because we decided we didn't want to swim the length of the Everglades. Traditional dinghies are still on our list- if we can find the right one. We used to sail Fireballs, so we would need less training time on a similar boat.


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## Michael K (Feb 27, 2006)

Fairly fast yet very forgiving - a Flying Scot. But I see that already suggested.
Shorter and slower, but with some shelter to rest in - a Peep Hen or Mud Hen.
In between the above two entries -a Daysailer 3 (has more freeboard than a 1 or 2).


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I can't ignore two recommendations for the Scott.

I have also thought more about CDYs recommendation of a Sea Pearl. In spite of there weight, they are top finishers in the challenge, but so much money.

Any thoughts on a Wayfarer? Or a Fireball?

Fireballs are fast and seaworthy, but impossible to row efficiently. Plus no sleeping on board.

Wayfarers are less fast but can be slept on. Better to row than a fireball.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

We spent the day out touring half a dozen Ottawa area yacht clubs today and looked at quite a few boats.

We ruled out Wayfarers. Too small for two guys for a week off shore.

We also ruled out Fireballs, cockpit is too small.

I think we ruled out most conventional dinghies, they just aren't designed for adventure racing.

However, we have added several Catamarans to our list of maybes, particularly the Hobie 16.

Any other Catamarans well suited to adventure racing? We need a boat with a load capacity in the neighbourhood of 750-800 pounds and most performance cats in that size range are very restricted by weight, but the raised tramp on the Hobie 16 permits bigger loads.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Hobie Tandem Islander, or Getaway (with racks) are so common they get their own class. Unless you want to get exotic and have a lot of experience in this type of boat I would stick with one of those.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Thanks stumble,

I do have considerable dinghy sailing experience, but very little of it is on a beach cat. A few weeks in Cuba and Antigua- that's it. That's why cats weren't even on my list originally.

I did look at an Islander today, I know they're popular but it looks pretty uncomfortable for sleeping. I will keep the Islander Tandem on my list if I find one for the right price.

I haven't seen a Getaway in person. The self furling jib is a nice feature, but it doesn't look like it's possible to add reef points to the main, this is a serious concern for me.

We are looking to buy the boat now for the 2018 race because we plan on putting a couple hundred training hours on whatever boat we get next season on Lake Ontario.


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## Michael K (Feb 27, 2006)

Oh, so now you want a multihull, eh! Now my answer is a Super Cat 17. And you won't have to travel too far to find one.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Michael K said:


> Oh, so now you want a multihull, eh! Now my answer is a Super Cat 17. And you won't have to travel too far to find one.


 Ya, you are right, there is one in Sudbury for $1500 Canadian, that's only about a 4 or 5 hour drive.

Boats are always so cheap up there because the sailing season is so short.

Edit: The Catamaran idea came into focus at the Aylmer Marina standing looking at a the less than shoulder width barely hip width bilge we would be sleeping in in a Mark 2 Wayfarer and then looking at the relatively giant trampoline on the Hobie 18 beside it. So much of a Challenge like this is staying comfortable and nourished.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

It depends on the budget, but if it were me, I would be looking at for a Wood's Shrike, or some other small demountable trimaran. Not only will they be fast, when it comes to the portage you can disasembly it into three parts and move it in pieces.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Okay, I see why Stumble was recommending against the performance oriented Cats. I have watched enough pitch poling YouTube videos to convince me I am not likely to keep one on its feet for a week of hard sailing. 

We have found a Flying Scot we might make an offer on.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Arcb said:


> Okay, I see why Stumble was recommending against the performance oriented Cats. I have watched enough pitch poling YouTube videos to convince me I am not likely to keep one on its feet for a week of hard sailing.
> 
> We have found a Flying Scot we might make an offer on.


If that's what's you took out of my post then I wrote it wrong. You couldn't payment to take a Scot on this thing. Besides the fact they are slow and heavy, if you broach they cannot self rescue. So you have to call out sea tow or the USCG. A self bailing cockpit in my eyes is an absolute requirement for any type of adventure raid in my eyes.

I actually race an A-Cat, sure you can flip it, but it only takes a few minutes to get it back upright too.

If I was doing the 300, I would probably start off with a well built double trap catamaran, and ignore the discomfort. The trick is to just assume you will be racing in dry suits and sleeping on the tramp. That way when you are cold and miserable at least you prepared for it.


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

How long is the portage? How far do the boats have to be dragged across the beach at the start? How strong are you and your brother?

What boats have been used by top race finishers in the past?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Stumble said:


> If that's what's you took out of my post then I wrote it wrong. You couldn't payment to take a Scot on this thing. Besides the fact they are slow and heavy, if you broach they cannot self rescue. So you have to call out sea tow or the USCG. A self bailing cockpit in my eyes is an absolute requirement for any type of adventure raid in my eyes.
> 
> I actually race an A-Cat, sure you can flip it, but it only takes a few minutes to get it back upright too.
> 
> If I was doing the 300, I would probably start off with a well built double trap catamaran, and ignore the discomfort. The trick is to just assume you will be racing in dry suits and sleeping on the tramp. That way when you are cold and miserable at least you prepared for it.


Yep, when I saw the boat in person I realized it's short comings. If I'm going the beach cat route, I want something that can get up and go. I am having trouble finding a suitable boat on budget, still looking. The assumption is definitely sleeping on the tramp in dry suits. I am not unfamiliar with offshore work. I was a professional Marine Search and Rescue Medic for 9 years and spent a great deal of time in open Zodiacs in fairly unpleasant conditions on open ocean, day and night


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Ya I wasn't clear. There is nothing magical about sailing a beach cat, I was really thinking of something like Smyth's Skisors, or some of the other custom built boats for this race, not a pretty stock standard beach cat. I race one of the easiest cats in the world to flip, and while its certainly doable, it isn't all that easy to wind up upside down. The trick is time in the boat, and not pressing incredibly hard in big wind. 

The portage is a trade off... It isn't that hard to do, if you don't mind scraping the bottom of your boat up, you just drag it. But if you are 'polish the bottom until it shines' guy like me then doing that will make you cry and you need to figure out how to carry it, or build a collapsible dolly.

I would probably stay away from the Hobie 16, they are cheap, but also low volume hulls with little volume in the bow. A more modern design will not only be faster, but also safer.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Stumble said:


> The portage is a trade off... It isn't that hard to do, if you don't mind scraping the bottom of your boat up, you just drag it. But if you are 'polish the bottom until it shines' guy like me then doing that will make you cry and you need to figure out how to carry it, or build a collapsible dolly.
> 
> I would probably stay away from the Hobie 16, they are cheap, but also low volume hulls with little volume in the bow. A more modern design will not only be faster, but also safer.


I don't mind scraping up a hull if it's the difference between a 5th place finish and a 10th place finish lol.

I am getting what you are saying with the Hobie 16 low volume hulls with 500 lbs of people and gear on board, tendency to pitch pole. We have a lead on a Mystere 5.5, we are going to try and check out. I don't really know anything about them, my partner has done some research.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Take a look at a Tornado, or a Weta. The problem in this class is that many of the boats are really custom (SewSew) or heavily modified. The Tornado would probably be where I start. There are lots of them, not terribly expensive, and fast. You will need to put some work in to modify it from a beachcat to a Raid boat, but it's a good platform.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Stumble said:


> Take a look at a Tornado, or a Weta. The problem in this class is that many of the boats are really custom (SewSew) or heavily modified. The Tornado would probably be where I start. There are lots of them, not terribly expensive, and fast. You will need to put some work in to modify it from a beachcat to a Raid boat, but it's a good platform.


The Mystere 5.5 is a Canadian boat built as a Tornado Trainer. As near as I can tell, it is a Tornado scaled down by 2'. She doesn't appear to have been customized much, if at all, which in a way makes it easier for us to do what we have to do; add oar locks, reef points etc.

Mystere Catamarans


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

Check out Chesapeake Light Craft at Chesapeake Light Craft | Boat Plans, Boat Kits, Boatbuilding Supplies, Boat Kit, Kayak Kit, Canoe Kit, Sailboat Kit
and look for the Northeaster Dory.

I remember seeing video of someone with one doing the same event a couple years ago or so. Basic boat is rower but you can get a sailing rig for it too.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I will Rhapsody, thanks for the tip.


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## Michael K (Feb 27, 2006)

The reason I suggested the Super Cat 17 is because of the high volume hulls and bows. You are far less likely to pitchpole an SC 17 than almost any other beach cat around that length, especially if laden down with required gear. In addition, the rig was designed to facilitate righting -in the event of a capsize - via quick partial-release turnbuckles at the base of the shrouds. When it first debuted, the SC 17 was found to be exceedingly fast. No wonder the hull form of the amas on a Seacart 30 look so similar.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Thanks Michael, this Mystere we're considering has very buoyant pontoons. We're still not sure mono/cat, it's going to be a matter of one day just finding the right boat. 

One thing I don't want is a slow poke, so the Super Cat seems a good option.


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## eko_eko (Sep 7, 2012)

Why not buy one here in FL? The cost of transport would be a significant part of the cost of the boat otherwise. You can (last I checked) also use wheels for the portage, so long as you take them with you on the boat when you launch.

Also be careful of draft. You don't want to get stuck in the shallows. There will be shallows.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Thanks Eko. I don't think Florida will work for us. We need to refit it, which will likely take place in my garage and we will want to log a couple hundred training hours on it.

I would love to do my training in Florida rather than in Canadian waters, but we are both working full time, so training will have to be evenings and week ends.

I don't think transportation will be an issue, we both drive 4x4's that can easily tow a small boat.

Thanks for the tip on the shallows, we are already aware of this issue and there has been much discussion about asymmetrical hulls on cats and lee boards on monos.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I had not heard of this race. Bloody amazing. Can't help narrow your boat choices, but I wish you the best of luck.

Here's an article on the race, if others that come across this thread are as equally unfamiliar as I.

http://www.sailmagazine.com/racing/...lenge-an-insane-small-boat-race-down-florida/


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Just throwing this one out there to hear thoughts, if any. A thistle modified with inflatable buoyancy bags (white water), a double reef in the main, a dodger/spray skirt as far back as the jib sheets and two rowing positions to enable use of the inside route in case of very strong or very light winds.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

The Thistle is narrow, tippy, slow, and has some of the least comfortable hiking positions ever devised. I would really suggest taking a look at boats designed in the last 50 years or so, there is a real difference in how well they sail, and how comfortable they are.


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## Waterrat (Sep 8, 2007)

EC 22 or CS17 or CS 20 all designed by B&B yachts. EC-22 | B&B Yacht Designs

The EC 22 holds class IV record. I have never sailed one but they look fun as hell. Even if not for you the design arose from numerous EC races and could give you insight on what you might want or need. The Wooden Boat Forum has a ton of information about the EC and would be worth mining for a little insight.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Thanks waterat. 

I'll check out those designs when I'm back at my desk on Monday. Right now my son and I are taking our boat up to Brockville for the Tallships festival. Beauty day on the river.


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I had not heard of this race. Bloody amazing. Can't help narrow your boat choices, but I wish you the best of luck.
> 
> Here's an article on the race, if others that come across this thread are as equally unfamiliar as I.
> 
> http://www.sailmagazine.com/racing/...lenge-an-insane-small-boat-race-down-florida/


If this race is too far south for some, there's always the R2AK.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Fsmike, I googled this race. Hardcore. Too hardcore for me right now. 750 miles in a small open boat is just an amazing test of endurance and skill. Very cool. 

Also, grizzly bears give me the creeps, I would have to find room for a 12 gauge on top of all the gear you need for Florida.


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## seabeau (Oct 5, 2014)

I would go with the B&B EC-22, an evolution of the Core Sound series. The simple catch ketch rig with bowsprit, is easy to step/unstep for transiting the bridges and two rowing stations could be utilized when necessary. Designed for this specific race, it would also be a great light weight trailerable camp cruiser. The construction technique is extremely fast and simple to build and modify as you like. Plenty of room for two and all their gear, racing with one sleeping in the cutty and one at the tiller. For the stops ashore, a boom tent with netting would make it a good sleeping platform. One or two sets of inflated roller wheels and you could easily push it down the beach at the start.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

FSMike said:


> If this race is too far south for some, there's always the R2AK.


I think the days that I enter a race, which advertises mild hypothermia as a likely outcome, are long past. I did like the prizes..... $10,000 to the winner, a set of steak knives to second place.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"We would actually prefer something with a bit of a tent or dodger for the off watch guy."
I'm thinking the fastest catamaran you can afford, including new sail because that's your "racing engine".
And for the off-watch, a Goretex "bivouac sack" which will be smaller, lighter, less windage than an traditional tent.
Since you have no class association rules to bother with, you may also want to look into lightening the boat any way you can, including sanding and grinding. 
But on the other hand, IIRC that race was cancelled due to bad weather concerns last year or two years ago, so exercise some care, and don't skimp on distress and safety equipment.
Do, eventually, come back and let us all know how you make out!


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Hellosailor, we have definitely discussed Gore Tex Bivvy sacs as an option. We both already have them as we are enthusiastic Mountaineers. We have some logistics to figure out. Can you imagine falling off a moving cat in the Gulf of Mexico in a Bivvy sac? Scary thought. 

I do agree with you though, I think it's an excellent idea.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Question to the Cat sailors, Stumble if you are still following.

We looked at a Tornado style Cat, very well equipped in our budget (high upper end), about a 4 hour drive away. She had soft spots in the hull.

One of my concerns with cats is a catastrophic hull failure causing the boat to synk. My analysis seems to indicate the risk is much higher of this occurrence with a racing cat than say- a Wayfarer.

I think it's worth mentioning again, survival is a much higher priority for us than finishing. Capsize, discomfort, swamping are all things we are okay with, but these performance cats seem like, unless we spend serious dollars, we could be taking big risks with our safety.

Sinking is not a possibility we are willing to entertain. I know I can keep a Wayfarer afloat for 8 days barring extreme circumstances.

Is my analysis correct, cats with soft spots or hulls that have been worked very hard are potentially very dangerous?


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

I would not want a Tornado for that race, to high string. made for closed circuit racing very light but flimsy. Hobie Nacra, Prindle are boats made to sail, flip over and run up on a beach. Prindle 18, a very tough Cat, long enough to resist pitch poling and easy to sail in control. asymmetric hulls, no dagger boards to worry about. 320# all up weight. Can be had cheap. as far as sinking any boat can sink. but two hulls are better then one. and two rudders are better the one. 
You will not have worry about hitting things and sinking with a Wayfarer going 4 knots. neither one will row very well but I can see a cat set up to row with a sliding seats and sweeps on each side. would be way faster than rowing a mono.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Interesting perspective overbored. 

Have you ever rowed a Cat with sliding seats? The idea has crossed my mind.

What I was thinking if we went the Cat route, is not sliding seats but a White Water canoe style saddle. Neither of us are skilled Cat sailors, or even basically competent, but we are both skilled back country white water canoeing trippers and have covered serious miles in White Water canoes, in very remote country (northern Canada).

What I was thinking instead of sliding seats is foam saddles. We would be able to row feet ahead, knees down or knees up. The variety would allow us to change our rowing position frequently and reduce pressure on our tail bones.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Arcb said:


> Question to the Cat sailors, Stumble if you are still following.
> 
> We looked at a Tornado style Cat, very well equipped in our budget (high upper end), about a 4 hour drive away. She had soft spots in the hull.
> 
> ...


Most beach cats are positively boyant. The hulls are a fiberglass/foam/fiberglass sand which so even if you have a catastrophic hull breach they will float. Obviously one side will float higher than the other, but it won't sink. I am not positive about the Tornado, but I am about 90% sure they are positively boyant.

Rowing a cat... It's possible, but not something you want to do. There isn't a good way to set up a rowing station. Which is why most of the R2A guys use a peddle powered prop. But the Everglades300 is rarely a light air raid, it's normally more an issue of depowering than anything else.

And the Tornado is a proven winner, it's a big powerful boat, but it also is really wide will full bows to limit the likelyhood of flipping.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

One thing about the Tandem Islands is that they are super duper for modifying. Lots of people camp on them, (I wouldn't but that's me.)

I own the Adventure Island, (single seat version). 

It's near impossible to capsize, and has so redundancy in propulsion that you're always moving, (sail,mirage drives,paddle).


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Prindle 16? It seems lighter, more buoyant, more resistant to pitch poling and about as tough as a Hobie 16. 

Plus- Asymmetrical hulls.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Bought a Boat!

While I didn't buy exactly what anybody recommended, I did take every ones comments into consideration. Thanks guys.

I bought a 1980 Prindle 16 in very nice condition from an older wealthy engineer who maintained it but didn't really sail it. Very nice guy too.

We'll need to replace the jib with a roller furling jib, which is fine, the old jib is getting a little rough. We'll keep it as a spare and training sail. The main already has professional reef points, she has a new tramp, new standing rigging everything looks good. It included a cat trailer very little wear on the hulls. Really, the boat is in great shape. It came with two new trapeze harnesses and double trapeze.

We paid $1200 cdn or roughly $850 American.

Perfect solution for a heavy displacement cruiser guy who wants to go fast- a beach cat. Fun fun. I'll make a YouTube series on the boat, mods, training and have etc.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Ok but I was close in suggesting a Prindle 18. having sailed and race both since 1978 I have a few hours in the trapeze. Still sailing my 1978 Prindle 16 that I bought new. The Prindle 16 is a good strong boat. They are less prone to pitch then the Hobie 16 but the 18 is like ten times less prone to pitch pole than the 16. You will have to be little more careful if reaching. surprising how much the extra 2' makes and the extra sail area make the 18 way faster. so with the 16 the race will be a bit more challenging but very doable. it will give a very good platform to learn CAT sailing. there are some advantages to the 16 as it is bit easier to rig and a bit littler when moving the boat on the sand. 1980 model should have the access ports on each hull and they are handy to store some stuff. parts are available from Murrays sports Prindle Factory Parts and they were made a mile from where I was living back then and I spent a few hours at the factory so any questions just ask.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Thanks overbored, yes, she has the inspection ports.

Another feature we liked about her is the two of us can pick her up and carry her, so if we want to do the portage to the freshwater portion, we can do it in less than an hour.

We were very impressed by the construction quality, she does not look like a 36 year old boat, she's in great shape.

I watched a YouTube video of 2 guys doing the EC in an old Prindle 16 and they had a very respectable finish time, less than 4 days if I recall.

The sub $1k USD price tag was another appealing feature of the 16. The cheaper your toys are the more you can have.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Pic of the new boat!

Today we went and picked up the new to us Prindle, we figured out why she was such a bargain! 

What a place to get it out of. The guy had her down on his beach which was really rocks separated from the water by 50 ft or so of reeds. There was no way to get the truck down the beach, so we dragged the Prindle through the reeds to the river, loaded my two year old onto the tramp (blowing 14 knots on The Ottawa river, and cold, about 16* celcius) and paddled the boat to the nearest access road.

We then dragged the boat through another swamp and carried it across another rocky beach to the trailer, loaded the boat onto the trailer by hand and then dragged it up out of a giant patch of poison ivy. Of course the trailer had no lights, which I already knew. Then we wired up the new trailer lights with ample use of cable ties meanwhile trying to keep the baby from playing in another patch of poison ivy. Then added air to the tires, with my air compressor, which was in the back of my SUV and I had charged before leaving the house.

Any way, we got her home and are going to try and get her out sailing on the Ottawa tomorrow. Sunny with 7-10 kn of wind forecast.


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

Lol. Good training for the EC. You'll do fine.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Good job, looks like a nice boat. Red that is not turned pink it has not seen much sun. by the way best way to paddle is one on each bow and kneel on the bow and paddle with hands like a surf board. try it some time for practice. just remember when the wind is up and you fall off to a reach , Get your weight back. Good sailing


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

overbored said:


> Good job, looks like a nice boat. Red that is not turned pink it has not seen much sun. by the way best way to paddle is one on each bow and kneel on the bow and paddle with hands like a surf board. try it some time for practice. just remember when the wind is up and you fall off to a reach , Get your weight back. Good sailing


Ha ha, too much sun is rarely a problem in Ottawa, summer usually lasts about 8 weeks here.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

thought I would take the Genoa discussion back on this thread
Genoa on Prindle 16, just thoughts off the top of my head and experience having tried it.
NO. you will pitch pole in 8 kts of wind
A gennaker in a dousing shoot yes. look at what the Nacra 17 uses. 
Roller furler is to heavy and it is up there all the time, what if you capsize or turtle remember the mast has to float and you have to lift that wet sail up to recover.
Only needed in light wind when off the wind 
could try a slightly bigger jib but with the wide shroud position the sail would hit the shrouds when close hauled
True genoa would have to sheet very wide and pointing angle would suffer.
maybe square top jib to get more area.
Need a sail that lifts the bows when off the wind. Bow sprit to get the tack out from the mainsail and up high so it can lift the bow
maybe bowsprit on each hull or tack position on the very end of the bow.
Think about installing a stern rack for all the extra weight, only time you do need the weight forward is in light wind. 
if you row or paddle in light wind it would be from the bows for weight forward and rudders up for less drag 
Just some things to think about.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

the boats power is in the main sail the jib increases the the wind thru the slot giving the main more power . as long as a larger jib does not cause a back wind of the main it might help. but when sailing upwind in heavier air the rolled sail will not be optimum shape. you would have test and look at what gives the best VMG. If you have to douse from the tramp you could loose the zipper luff and go the old style wire luff which can be lower to the tramp. or use a extended tramp between the bows.
Slightly bigger jib on a small boat furler and a gennaker with a dousing sleave. maybe next size up on the shroud to cary the load. by the way you may want to replace the shroud bar under the gunnel with a SS one the aluminum ones corrode and can split in half at the threaded hole. check the ones under the cross bars and the bridle. makes for a bad day
Always wanted to try a square main just for fun


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Consider weight. The Prindle 16 was designed for light crews, with the class min being about 270#. They were intended as a couples boat and do best light. If you put 500 pounds on them they will not fly a hull without rolling or pitching. I owned one, did overload them occasionally, and they hate it very much. Anything over 400 pounds is asking for serious trouble and poor handling. Two big guys and stuff is scaring me.

You are going to have to watch the weight like a hawk. NOTHING goes on the boat this is not required by the rules or used sailing. Few extra clothes, light everything, sleep in a dry suit or wrapped in a tarp. Light crew. You're going to spend more on gear to keep it light than you did for the boat!

I like the boat. It's fun. But take it for a test sail with 500 pounds on, and then consider selling it and buying something better suited to load carrying. A Prindle 18 or AMC Trac 16 perhaps. Get other opinions.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

pdqaltair said:


> Consider weight. The Prindle 16 was designed for light crews, with the class min being about 270#. They were intended as a couples boat and do best light. If you put 500 pounds on them they will not fly a hull without rolling or pitching. I owned one, did overload them occasionally, and they hate it very much. Anything over 400 pounds is asking for serious trouble and poor handling. Two big guys and stuff is scaring me.
> 
> You are going to have to watch the weight like a hawk. NOTHING goes on the boat this is not required by the rules or used sailing. Few extra clothes, light everything, sleep in a dry suit or wrapped in a tarp. Light crew. You're going to spend more on gear to keep it light than you did for the boat!
> 
> I like the boat. It's fun. But take it for a test sail with 500 pounds on, and then consider selling it and buying something better suited to load carrying. A Prindle 18 or AMC Trac 16 perhaps. Get other opinions.


So far we have had it out with just us on board, so 380 pounds, she felt very good at that weight.

We do have some weight management strategies in mind, and we are good at it because we are experienced mountaineers, not Whistler Blackcomb, the big ones in Northern Nepal, and we don't use porters.

I absolutely agree with your advice and actual weight will probably be closer to 430. Ideally I would like to lose about 20 lbs before the race, so that would put us around the 400 mark. We don't yet have a solid figure though. We will be doing a practice "race" early next season with full weight on board, and absolutely, if it feels sketchy in big seas we will trade it in for something else.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Arcb said:


> So far we have had it out with just us on board, so 380 pounds, she felt very good at that weight.
> 
> We do have some weight management strategies in mind, and we are good at it because we are experienced mountaineers, not Whistler Blackcomb, the big ones in Northern Nepal, and we don't use porters.
> 
> I absolutely agree with your advice and actual weight will probably be closer to 430. Ideally I would like to lose about 20 lbs before the race, so that would put us around the 400 mark. We don't yet have a solid figure though. We will be doing a practice "race" early next season with full weight on board, and absolutely, if it feels sketchy in big seas we will trade it in for something else.


Very cool. I have an ice climbing addiction, but I have to admit that routes on the NW side of Grand Teton and New Hampshire winter ice have been the limit. So much fun.









I think you are going to find there is a big difference somewhere around 400-500 pounds where it becomes critical. 350 will feel solid. At some point the lee hull will start to disappear. If you can loose a little and be disciplined (sounds like you know the drill--if you don't need that strap on the backpack, cut it off) it could be fast.

Regarding rowing, you might want to try something like kayak paddles (get longer ones) while riding the bows like a horse, one guy on each side. I sometimes paddled into a dock that way, and it works well. I bet it would be fast and easy with 2, and it is easy to carry to break-down paddles. I've got some kayak stuff on this blog:The Other Chesapeake: Selecting a Kayak Aslo drysuits; I like the Ocean Rodeo Soul, since I can open it while paddling.

Sounds like fun.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I thought I'd update this thread. We have done a bunch of training and modifications on this boat. The build is coming along nicely.

We took her out for a nice overnight training sail this week end. We've got most of our gear and had her packed at full race weight. Which came out probably just over 450 lbs.

We sailed through the night and took turns sleeping in our dry suits on the tramp while the other guy sailed. That worked out just fine- it was a bit chilly.

The last 5 hours of the sail we got slammed with some dirty weather that really gave us a chance to test her out. 

The wind was forecast around 15 knots with gusts to 23, but we were sailing at the base of some small mountains. Squalls were forming on the hills, rolling down the hill sides and hitting the lake pretty frequently. I didn't have an anomometer, but I think winds were higher than forecast.

The boat handled all the weight fine. We were beating up wind the whole time because we were on the return leg of our journey. No trapezes. The gusts were whicked and we didn't feel like swimming: water temperature: 13 C (55 f) air temp 10 C (50).

Speed on a close reach was around 10 knots and peaking at just over 12.

As the morning went on, the squalls coming off the hills we're getting more intense and we nearly swam a couple of times, so we Hove too and put a reef in the main. The boat settled right down and was still maintaining 8 knots.

The conditions continued to deteriorate through the morning. Close reaching we were hitting boat speeds of up to 13.0 knots reefed.

Unfortunately as the wind increased, so did the sea state. The leeward hull was frequently awash and every few minutes we would bottom out the tramp on a whitecap and instantly decelerate to 4 or 5 knots.

Summary: The boat showed no signs of weakness. She was quite manageable when reefed, even when decelerating from 10 knots to 4 or 5 knots slamming into a white cap. She carried the weight we needed to carry just fine. She is wet when sailing to weather with all that weight on board in a chop. Think I'm going to need a snorkel.


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