# Suncor Lifeline Kits



## SVCarolena (Oct 5, 2007)

Does anyone have any experience they can share regarding the Suncor lifeline kits? I plan on replacing my lifelines and a certain retailer has them on sale (sorry, Sailnet doesn't carry it). Each kit includes 40ft of wire, one toggle and one turnbuckle. They also make a gate kit. The hardware uses a mechanical connector like Norseman, Hyan, etc., so it is a DIY proposition.


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## SVCarolena (Oct 5, 2007)

Here is an example of the kit (this is the one with the gate):

Lifeline Kit with Gate

NEW Suncor Stainless Do-It-Yourself lifeline kit with gate. Suncor Stainless's part number is C0747-LK01.

Do it yourself! Rig a Lifeline in minutes.

Kit Includes:

1 Quick Attach Double Gate Eye 
1 Quick Attach Gate Eye 
1 Quick Attach Pelican Hook 
2 Quick Attach Turnbuckles with toggle 
40 feet of White PVC Coated Lifeline (3/16 wire)

App. Wt. 8lbs


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## SVCarolena (Oct 5, 2007)

Still no takers? Anyone want to give their thoughts even if they don't have first hand experience? Personally, I like the idea becasue (i) it is cheaper or equal in cost to swaged fittings, (ii) DIY is always a plus in my book (no riggers nearby), and (iii) it looks like the end fittings could be reused down the road. I considered the self swage CS Johnson fittings that WM sells, but I'm a little leary on the strength of the small swager (which WM will let you use in the store). 

I know some don't like coated lifelines, but my boat is generally in fresh water (tidal, but have to go a few miles down river to even hit brackish), and I like the look of the white over stainless.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

SV- I like the idea of DIY. If the fittings are reusable it seems like a no brainer, I'll have to go to their website and check them out. I need to change my lifelines so this is timely. Thanks!

John


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

I need to replace my lifelines and am considering this as one of my options. The other is to go with low-stretch line, which CS Johnson has fittings for now.

So the Suncor kit gives you enough for one line, one side?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Don't use PVC coated wire. Stainless steel needs oxygen.


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## Hobos (Jan 12, 2008)

Interesting advise on the PVC coated lines. I've never this before. Mine are coated, will have to research this.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Stainless steel deprived of oxygen tends to suffer from crevice corrosion. This is why the ORC/ISAF require boats in races to have synthetic line or uncoated stainless steel for lifelines.  This is also why taping rigging is a bad idea.


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## Hobos (Jan 12, 2008)

Than you SD, I thought the rule was strickly for inspection reason. I will strip mine when I put up for winter. Yuck.


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## SVCarolena (Oct 5, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> Stainless steel deprived of oxygen tends to suffer from crevice corrosion. This is why the ORC/ISAF require boats in races to have synthetic line or uncoated stainless steel for lifelines.  This is also why taping rigging is a bad idea.


SD is absolutely correct in that the non-PVC line will last much longer than the covered. In addition, non-covered allows you to keep an eye on the line for potential deterioration that the PVC may hide. However, for my purposes I'm going to still go with PVC. This is because of the fact that right now there is a good chance that I'll sell the boat in four to five years (yep, twofootitis has already set in). I also like the look of the white lines and the PVC is easier on the hands. I don't go offshore, and my boat is used primarily in fresh to brackish water. If I was certain to keep the boat long enough and/or go longterm cruising, I'd probably go with the non-covered line.

In response to the OP, yes, each kit contains the hardware for one line on one side, with 40 ft. of 3/16 line (that is the wire size, not the diameter with the PVC cover).


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

There seems to me to be a awful lot of 30 year old boats out there with there original vinyl or pvc covered lifelines.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

And alot of those lifelines will fail without warning if subjected to the stress of someone relying on them. 


Freesail99 said:


> There seems to me to be a awful lot of 30 year old boats out there with there original vinyl or pvc covered lifelines.


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## cruisingdream (Feb 7, 2007)

My 25 year old life lines broke when stressed (thankfully I had one hand free for myself) I replaced them last year , after pricing the do it yourself kit & getting quotes from places like rig right or defender the final cost was about the same. So I went with profesionaly done life lines . Better to trust someone who knows how to do it right than my own trial & error.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

cruisingdream said:


> *My 25 year old life lines broke when stressed (thankfully I had one hand free for myself)* I replaced them last year , after pricing the do it yourself kit & getting quotes from places like rig right or defender the final cost was about the same. So I went with profesionaly done life lines . Better to trust someone who knows how to do it right than my own trial & error.


Point made..


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

A lifeline would really need to be submerged to cause a crevice crack corrosion problem 


And if the PVC were really a problem the swags would be a far worse one


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If you sail in heavy weather, high winds or the boat heels much, you probably get enough salt water under the coating to cause crevice corrosion problems, since the water doesn't evaporate from under the covering very readily. Also, as the water does evaporate, it leaves salt deposits behind, which absorb moisture and then cause fairly strong corrosive effects local to them.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I usually agree with most of what SD writes and agree that the corrosion factor of the covered lifelines is greater. It is important to inspect them every 3 months or so although you cant see under the coating.

The one drawback of the bare stainless is (Ihave actually see this happen) if there is a burr or a fray,,and it happens to be in the foredeck area where the jib passes over it..it can slice a jib in half on a tack in a mere second.

I ordered my fittings (JOhnson) and line from americanriggingsupplies.com and redid all my lines this year for 1/3 the cost of a rigging shop or west marine

Dave


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Chef-

Did you re-do your lines with synthetic or stainless steel?


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

cruisingdream said:


> My 25 year old life lines broke when stressed (thankfully I had one hand free for myself) I replaced them last year , after pricing the do it yourself kit & getting quotes from places like rig right or defender the final cost was about the same. So I went with profesionaly done life lines . Better to trust someone who knows how to do it right than my own trial & error.


For crying out loud. How in the heck would anyone expect 25 year old lifelines or any other rigging on the boat to be safe?
That's just silly.

Vinyl coated lifelines have been proven to serve the purpose that they are designed for perfectly well. Just don't expect them to last forever. Uncoated wire is right for some applications and not really so good for others. If one decides to use uncoated wire however, it should not be 7x19 or 7x7. It should be 1x19. One downside it that 1x19 will show bends and kinks easily.
I really think that the material one chooses is a personal choice.

I would also doubt that even after 25 years that all strands of the wire failed all at once. (If it did the the operator of the vessel must have never inspected it). I have seen more lifeline failures from broken studs on closed body turnbuckles than anything else.

I also doubt strongly that one could use mechanical fittings to do a lifeline job and come out with a less expensive job as far a materials go. I would wager to say that I could swage a set, bright wire or vinyl coated and come out at around the same price. Labor included. And have it done the same day.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

For cruising, I prefer vinyl covered to avoid the possibility of meathooks chewing me up. In my experience, lines go at the swages or the turnbuckles and not underneath the vinyl. It is also my opinion that the stanchions on most boats are weak, udersized and under-supported and represent more of a danger than the lifelines breaking. 
I had a pro like Knotty do the replacement on my lines a few years back and it was quite reasonable and I have the security of knowing the swages were done right and with the proper equipment. It might be different for a lake sailor, but when preparing for blue water, it seems like this is an ill advised place to take shortcuts or risk one's safety. I have been in several situations where the lifelines & stanchions kept me aboard, (NOT in life threatening situations!), and I want to have no concerns that they will do the job.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

camaraderie said:


> For cruising, I prefer vinyl covered to avoid the possibility of meathooks chewing me up. In my experience, lines go at the swages or the turnbuckles and not underneath the vinyl. It is also my opinion that the stanchions on most boats are weak, udersized and under-supported and represent more of a danger than the lifelines breaking.
> I had a pro like Knotty do the replacement on my lines a few years back and it was quite reasonable and I have the security of knowing the swages were done right and with the proper equipment. It might be different for a lake sailor, but when preparing for blue water, it seems like this is an ill advised place to take shortcuts or risk one's safety. I have been in several situations where the lifelines & stanchions kept me aboard, (NOT in life threatening situations!), and I want to have no concerns that they will do the job.


I agree with all your points Cam. (_kiss,kiss)

_But seriously, ask most racers which they've seen more of, broken wires or folded stanchions.
I said it before, don't ever trust your life to a lifeline. 
They are there for a purpose, and that's to keep one from falling overboard, not to stop them in the process. But, having said that, if they are well found, maintained and inspected, they can be pretty strong.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Cam-

Knothead say your check is in the mail.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

sailingdog said:


> Cam-
> 
> Knothead say your check is in the mail.


shhhhhhhh!!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

LOL...you did tell me to let him know... you didn't tell me to keep it quiet... 


knothead said:


> shhhhhhhh!!!


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

As with my last boat, I going with Johnson/synthetic, half the cost is in the fittings which will last several yrs, the cordage maybe 3-4, but fresh lines @ 400 bucks every few yrs, isn't too bad

Cost around 1000 bucks, which is about the same as the Suncor kit would be for my boat


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## GoslingNY (Sep 29, 2004)

knothead said:


> I agree with all your points Cam. (_kiss,kiss)
> 
> _But seriously, ask most racers which they've seen more of, broken wires or folded stanchions.
> I said it before, don't ever trust your life to a lifeline.
> They are there for a purpose, and that's to keep one from falling overboard, not to stop them in the process. But, having said that, if they are well found, maintained and inspected, they can be pretty strong.


Totally agree, I've been on too many boats where, due to lack of maintenence, the lifelines failed or a stanchion pulled out of the deck because water got into the core and rotted everything.

The only thing that kept me on the boat was my harness and tether. That's what I depend on...something that I have some level of control of.

Cheers,

MikeR


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## GoslingNY (Sep 29, 2004)

knothead said:


> shhhhhhhh!!!


So, being from Tampa, do you know my friend Brian Malone? Sails a j24 out of Davis Island YC.

Wild guy, but a real good one.

Cheers,

MikeR


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

GoslingNY said:


> So, being from Tampa, do you know my friend Brian Malone? Sails a j24 out of Davis Island YC.
> 
> Wild guy, but a real good one.
> 
> ...


Not by name, but likely have run into him.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Saildog,


I used the stainless coated wire. Double lifelines for a 35 ft boat. Aproximently 160 fett of coated wire. Double gate set ups with Pelican hooks, Adjustable barrel fittings om the bow 20 stainless fitting in all. Cost was $750 vs 1500 for the riggers or West Marine. I used the hand swage tool and did 5 swages per fitting. Took some time, but the job is well done and you can fit it perfectly as you go along on the boat. I suggest barrel adjustables to take up stretch over the years. I like to do things like this myself. Check out Americanriggingsuppl.com. Great informational and product website

Dave


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

The ORC is not in the business of encumbering racers with useless rules. They only add rules after long and careful consideration, as the result of FAILURES that have been documented and studied.

In the case of lifelines that's been beaten to death online for years. The ORC changed their rules because covered lifelines are unsafe, period. I don't like bare steellifelines, I like plastic covers that prevent meathooks. But as any rigger will tell you--if there's even one meathook in the cable, the cable is overdue for replacement, it is failing and there are more failures that you haven't seen.

Bottom line, if you're not racing do as you please. If you are racing under ORC rules or their derivatives, comply.

On the DIY rigging kit: Seems like a good idea if their fasteners are well made. Since "patent" fasteners have been used in rigging for decades, as an alternative to swages, and they've proven themselves perfectly adequate _when properly installed_, these should be fine too. Assuming the design is good and the installation done right. Swagers have to be done right too, so there's no real difference there.


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## GoslingNY (Sep 29, 2004)

knothead said:


> Not by name, but likely have run into him.


The boat is called 'Supernatural Fish Slapper'.

Cheers,

MikeR


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## cruisingdream (Feb 7, 2007)

knothead said:


> For crying out loud. How in the heck would anyone expect 25 year old lifelines or any other rigging on the boat to be safe?
> That's just silly.
> 
> Freshwater boat , Our stuff last 10 time longer than saltwater boats


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

cruisingdream said:


> knothead said:
> 
> 
> > For crying out loud. How in the heck would anyone expect 25 year old lifelines or any other rigging on the boat to be safe?
> ...


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## SVCarolena (Oct 5, 2007)

I'm with Knothead on this one (and he is the professional) - our boat has spent most of its life in fresh to slightly brackish water, but at 20+ years one of the first projects I decided to do was to replace all the standing rigging even though it still "looked" ok. Doing it myself, $700 worth of stainless line and fittings is cheap insurance. And even though they "look" ok, this year we are redoing the lifelines.

Knothead - do you have any thoughts on the Suncor kit? What about their traditional hardware?


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

SVCarolena said:


> do you have any thoughts on the Suncor kit? What about their traditional hardware?


I haven't noticed a problem with Suncor's hardware. Unless I'm mistaken, it is not domestic. But I'm not sure that makes much difference anymore.

As far as the lifeline kit goes, I haven't had the occasion to purchase or sell one. 
From what I see in the photo of the kit earlier in this thread it looks like a single run. 
Most boats have an upper and lower on port and starboard so I guess you would have to buy four kits. Correct me if I am wrong.
I don't know what the retail cost of the kit is, (maybe someone could tell us), but presumably one would need four of them and maybe pelican hook and toggle jaw for the stern gate too.
As I said earlier, I think that the cost would be less or comparable if I were to fabricate a set of lifelines, but again, I don't know what they cost. 
If I remember, I'll ask Mrs Knothead to give them a call next week to find out.
The last point is labor. I can make a set of lifelines in a couple of hours. 
Using mechanical fittings will certainly take longer. Especially if the wire is 7x7 construction.
It can be a pain.


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## SVCarolena (Oct 5, 2007)

Yes, one kit will cover one line on one side for my boat. We would need four kits, which I can get on special for $100 each. I don't have any gates, so looking at a total of $400 to replace all of the lifelines and hardware. I'd go the professional route, but that means an hour plus drive to and from Annapolis. I'm also one of those wierd people who actually enjoys working on the boat myself, even if it does take a lot longer than if I hired out the work.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

> I'm also one of those wierd people who actually enjoys working on the boat myself, even if it does take a lot longer than if I hired out the work.


I get a lot of satisfaction in doing things myself, also.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Also, by doing the work myself, I have a much better idea of how to fix it when it has a problem later on...and who to blame if there's a problem with it.


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## Quickstep192 (Jan 6, 2001)

I recently replaced my lifelines. The place I go for supplies no longer sells the vinyl coated stuff and convinced me to go with bare cable based on the speculative failure issues. I got uncovered cable, but with the same outside diameter as the vinyl covered cable. I actually think it looks better. The old stuff made it nearly 20 years without failing, but I can't say it ever really got tested. It sure looked like hell by the time I replaced it. I'll check back in 20 years from now and let everyone know how long the uncovered stuff held up.


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## SuncorStainless (Sep 25, 2008)

Given that I work for Suncor and invented the lifeline kit I figured I would chime in. To help people understand the do-it yourself lifeline kits:

1) Suncor just purchased all necessary equipment to manufacture all rigging terminals in USA. Not because of quality but cost. As of 2009 all Suncor Rigging Hardware will be USA made with the same cost structure.

2) The fittings used on the kits are called Quick Attach. Quick Attach is the strongest fitting available. Even stronger than a swage. It is 10 times stronger than a Johnson Hand Swage.

3) Installation of a quick attach fitting is not like other mechanical fittings. Therefore the time is cut by 75%. The wedges go over the wire rather than peeling the wire apart like other mechanical fittings. QA can be used on all wire types. A 12 year old has installed a complete double row lifeline kit with gates in under 3 hours.

4) The Kits come in both PVC coated wire and 1x19 bare wire. FYI-Our PVC coated wire is 316 wire not 304 like most manufacturers. We also sell a kit with black PVC for darker colored hulls. My ultimate feeling is that PVC is ok as long as you keep an eye on it and replace every 5 years, no matter what!

If you have any questions feel free to contact me anytime. Thanks, Ed Mayo


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## SVCarolena (Oct 5, 2007)

SuncorStainless said:


> Given that I work for Suncor and invented the lifeline kit I figured I would chime in. To help people understand the do-it yourself lifeline kits:
> 
> 1) Suncor just purchased all necessary equipment to manufacture all rigging terminals in USA. Not because of quality but cost. As of 2009 all Suncor Rigging Hardware will be USA made with the same cost structure.
> 
> ...


Thanks for weighing in, and for the early and full disclosure. It is always nice to hear the manufacurer's side of things, particularly when it is laid out in clear factual way.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Ed - Welcome to SailNet! Thanks for adding your perspective. (as a manufacturer, you want to make sure that you read and abide by the rules, or it could get ugly)

I have been impressed by the Suncor Kits, and like the DIY - without special tools - aspect of them. I expect that it would make an emergency repair possible, or even allow re-use of the quick attach fittings in 5-20 years when the line needs replacing.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Ed-

I would suggest you read the thread on full disclosure and the requirements therein. You can find the thread *here*.



SuncorStainless said:


> Given that I work for Suncor and invented the lifeline kit I figured I would chime in. To help people understand the do-it yourself lifeline kits:
> 
> 1) Suncor just purchased all necessary equipment to manufacture all rigging terminals in USA. Not because of quality but cost. As of 2009 all Suncor Rigging Hardware will be USA made with the same cost structure.
> 
> ...


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

SVCarolena said:


> Thanks for weighing in, and for the early and full disclosure. It is always nice to hear the manufacurer's side of things, particularly when it is laid out in clear factual way.


I second that. 
As a seller of Suncor's products, (_and I hope no one minds me giving my opinion), 
_Suncor has always met our expectations. Their products seem to hold up OK and their customer service has never let me down.
I've tried the Quick Attach fittings, and to be honest, I see no reason that they wouldn't perform as well or better than any other method.

I have no problem using whatever method my customer requests. Actually, I encourage it because well informed customers are usually a pleasure to deal with. 

There are a couple of reasons that I will, at least for now, stick to recommending and using swage terminals for most applications. One, it's almost always the least expensive, (assuming the customer wants to have the work done. Instead of performing it themselves).

Two, I have the machines. Why the heck did I pay so much money for those damn machines if all I need is a couple of metric crescent wrenches!!!

Seriously, I want to do the best job for my customers that I can. That's the bottom line. 
If Suncor, AR, CSJ, or anybody else out there can just convince me by indisputable test results that their product is the best option, put a piece of paper in my hand that I can give to my customer that documents it, and *make it for a price that I can sell to my customers* while still making the same margin. Then I'll push it.

Truthfully, I haven't really gone out of my way to experiment much. AR actually sent me a half dozen of their mechanical fittings to try. Five years later, I still have some of them.

I am just a humble rigger, but here's the way I see it.

There are numerous companies that produce products for terminating wire rigging. They all work. Some work better than others and cost more. Some require special equipment and skill. Some are old technology and some are cutting edge. 
The thing that they all have in common is that they all work.

I probably shouldn't say this out loud, but the fact is, rigging seems to be pretty forgiving.

I have seen swages cracked their entire length yet still holding up rigs for indefinite periods of time. 
I disassembled a Sta-Loc once where the person who put it together had cut out the section of core where the wedge was suppose to go. He just unlaid the outer strands, cut the core out and assembled it. 
This held up the mast for years. 
And yes, the people actually sailed it.

"Heaven, they say, protects children, sailors, and drunken men"

Since it looks like I have plenty of time I thought I might clarify this. "I disassembled a Sta-Loc once where the person who put it together had cut out the section of core where the wedge was suppose to go. He just unlaid the outer strands, cut the core out and assembled it.'

The wedge was installed, but not over the core strands, which had been removed.

SailingDog, I love ya man but sometimes you come across as harsh.


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## SVCarolena (Oct 5, 2007)

Hey Steve, thanks for weighing in. I woke up this AM wondering if you would respond to Ed's comments, and was not let down in the least.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Suncor...thanks for your post. You did not violate the SPIRIT of any rules here and you disclosed who you were up front and provided useful information. As a *moderator* I have NO problem with your post. Sometimes members are harsh to newcomers but I say WELCOME to your input and we hope you stick around. 
We don't allow self promotion since the site runs on advertiser revenue but you CAN answer direct questions about your product and comment on other subjects freely. More detailed info on our vendor rules is at 
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/buying-boat/39218-special-interest-declaration.html

Again..thanks for your comments and welcome aboard.


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## SuncorStainless (Sep 25, 2008)

Steve,
Thanks for the comments and positive reinforcement in regards to Suncor. I tried to respond to your PM but I can't given my membership status. 
My intention with the lifeline kits was not to take business away from riggers who prefer swage fittings. The kits were designed for folks who live in areas where there are no riggers or swage machines available.
I agree with your comment in regards to the fact that rigging can be forgiving with some exceptions. I think it is important for everyone to inspect or have their rig, deck hardware and lifelines inspected once a year. I have seen disaster occur from something as simple as a cotter pin slipping off because the tape job was two years old. If you know what you are doing as a boat owner great, just keep an eye out. If you question your knowledge on any of these subjects HIRE A PROFESSIONAL.
I am glad I found this forum since I thought Sailnet was still closed until I googled the Suncor lifeline kit to see who has it online. 
If anyone ever has any technical questions in regards to stainless please feel free to contact me. Thanks, Ed


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## jonny2nite (Aug 13, 2009)

*Suncor Life line kits Major Price Increase!!*

I paid 65.99 last year for the pvc coated non gate kit. This year it is 162.99 at W.M. What gives? Any one know of another vendor?


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Try your humble, local rigger.


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## SuncorStainless (Sep 25, 2008)

That price is incorrect. Try any major marine distributor and if that does not work please feel free to contact us directly. If Sailnet wanted to carry Suncor products again I would direct you there....WinkWink


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

The best price I saw (and purchased) last November or so was around $95 per non-gate vinyl coated kit. Never saw anything like $65.

I like the Suncor lines, BTW.


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