# Racing question for anyone



## KismetP362 (Nov 6, 2006)

I grew up sailing Hobie 16 and 18's around as fast as I could, I loved being out on the wire, hanging over the ocean and keeping the boat perfectly balanced. Tacking was a little more complicated but fun.

Fast forward to current day, I have no drive to race my current boat but: *is there a sailing rule against a boat having a trapeze system and the crew wearing harnesses to get their weight further out on the windward side? *

I'd look it up in the rule book but it confuses the cruiser in me.

I'm sure I could do with just a few Racers telling me how dumb I am for asking this before I get the clue, but fire away.

Thanks, 
Ryan


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Most PHRF classes forbid traps.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

PHRF has nothing to do with this. Rule 49.2 of the Racing Rules of Sailing has everything to do with it as it is the rule concerning lifelines and crew position in relation to it. Case #36 expands upon this and clarifies what is a legal crew position with illustrations. You may use a trapeze at any time, but if your boat is equipped with lifelines, your torso must be inside of them. If your boat has double lifelines the torso must be inside of the lower one. Rule 49.1 allows for hiking straps to be used to hike out (obviously only for non-lifelined boats). Class rules such as the Hobie fleet, modify Rule 49.1 to allow trapezes.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Any rule forbids it..

You can't have more than your legs hanging from the side of the boat, and that only if your butt is on the deck

You can not have any body part outside the life lines. Game over for you.

I don't know what boat you have, but riding a trapeze would do litle for you, and probably get you injured...

You're only allowed trapeze in boats desigend as such


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Damn george beat me...


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## max-on (Mar 30, 2004)

Giulietta said:


> Damn george beat me...


You're slowing-down in your old age, or you must have been not working!!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Giulietta said:


> Any rule forbids it..
> 
> You can't have more than your legs hanging from the side of the boat, and that only if your butt is on the deck
> 
> ...


So Giu - you're saying these guys should be tossed?










btw Ernesto Bertarelli & crew at the Farr 40 worlds.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Funny that you should mention this&#8230; I think I remember reading about multiple protests in a single regatta concerning this rule (could have been the Farr 40's.) Rule 49.2 uses the word "taught" and the protest centered around its definition (I think that Bill Clinton was one of the "lawyers".) As I recall, the top line was relatively "taught" and the lower one was also "taught" when it had the weight of the crew against it. I think that the protest was resolved by the judges doing a "beauty contest", using their own judgment on what was loose or taught. I think some boats were DSQ'd because of it while others were not.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Where I come from, yes. They would be protested. The two lines rule, and butt in deck

However, they have the butt in deck and only one life line..It would be protested.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I see that pic also as being protest able. As the torso's are out side the lower lines. Altho the butts are questionable about how well they are planted on the deck............

Maybe the rules need to be a bit more specific as to what is inside vs out side on a double line boat?

Marty


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

(Light bulb finally clicks on) That's it! The protest committee used the criteria of "butts on the deck" vs. "butts on the hull" to judge the protest. ("honest, your honor, I had at least one cheek on the deck at all times")


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

It's been a while, admittedly, since I studied thePHRF booklet, but my recollection is that the line defined by PHRF NW was a "vertical line perpendicular to the deck edge" as the limit for torso position - i.e. not "outside the lifelines" I imagine this was to address boats that had no lifelines fitted.

Whichever yardstick you use, the pic clearly shows some rule bending/straining (not to mention lifeline bending/straining)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Actually, Giu, they do have double lifelines...not singles on that boat. However, the lower lifeline has been replace with webbing where the guys are.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

No SD..the black thing is either a foam cylinder or a stripe of that same cloth as the aircraft seat belts...I don't know the name, but its still considered lifeline


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> No SD..the black thing is either a foam cylinder or a stripe of that same cloth as the aircraft seat belts...I don't know the name, but its still considered lifeline


Seatbelts are made of nylon webbing... but my point is you said that they only had one lifeline... and would protest it...but they've got two.



Giulietta said:


> Where I come from, yes. They would be protested. The two lines rule, and butt in deck
> 
> However, they have the butt in deck and only one life line..It would be protested.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Guys, guys, guys&#8230; Read rule 49.2 in the RRS. It is all there (and no place else.) If you go to the RRS casebook and look up Case 36, it has the illustrations on what is "legal" and what is not. (I wish I could post the accompanying drawing, but my copy is a PDF file.) Suffice to say, Case 36 says that a crew member must have their body inside of a vertical line extending from the top of the lifeline. Except when there are double lifelines, then the competitor can extend the upper part of his body past the lifelines as long as his waist is inside the lower life line. PHRF has nothing to do with rule 49. And if someone's local PHRF instructions has this, please send me the link, I'd love to read it. Here is the complete text of Rule 49.2:

"When lifelines are required by the class rules or the sailing instructions they shall be taught, and competitors shall not position any part of their torsos outside them, except briefly to perform a necessary task. On boats equipped with upper and lower lifelines of wire, a competitor sitting on the deck facing outboard with his waist inside the lower lifeline may have the upper part of his body outside the upper lifeline."


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

man. looking at the picture that is about as far as you can bend the rule. lol, gotta love racers.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

But aren't many races sanctioned outside PHRF? And don't the "class rules" of several boats -- including the Farr 40 and Melges 24, permit more radical hiking like that in the photo? I read the exact same thread somewhere else, where someone was bitching a Melges 24 was breaking the rules -- only it turned out that wide elastic webbing exists precisely so torsos can be extended past the rail, and the Melges charter permits that *as long as the buttocks remain in contact with the deck*.

So I believe this is legal hiking for the Melges 24:









While here are some examples that aren't:
http://www.melges24.com/Illegal_Hiking/


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## KismetP362 (Nov 6, 2006)

Gotcha, 
I need to find myself another hobiecat. 

Thanks.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I'm probably flogging a dead horse here, but there are still some misconceptions going around as to how our sport is governed. First off, PHRF is "Performance Handicap Racing Formula". The formula is down below. It does nothing else, it does not sanction, it's not a governing body, it's merely a formula used to handicap the speed potential of dissimilar displacement sailboats. 

PHRF Regression Formula
R' = 610-8.36*(SA/Disp^.333)+0.0000511*(SA^2)-55*(P/(J+E)) -30.8*(LWL^.5)-602*(DR^2/SA)

Our sport is governed by the ISAF the International Sailing Federation. They are the ultimate governing body for practically all organized sailing races from the Olympics down to your local YRA events. The Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) are created and maintained by them. Giu and I both race using the same rules albeit mine are translated into English. US Sailing is the governing body here in the USA (and they are a member of the ISAF). All your local Yacht Racing Associations (YRA) are members of US Sailing. Your Notice of Race (NOR) and/or Racing Instructions (RI) will indicate if that race is part of YRA or not (e.g. "club races"). If it is an YRA sanctioned event, then it must follow the rules as proscribed in the RRS and US Sailing/ ISAF. And if you pursue a protest, you could possibly appeal all the way up to the ISAF. 

Your local YRA will have a handicap committee that assigns ratings based on the above formula while adjusting for local conditions. A "PHRF Class" or "PHRF Fleet" is merely a way of dividing the race entrants into different sub-groups for purposes of starting and awards. For example, my "family station wagon" has a PHRF 147 rating which sometimes lumps me in with sport boats rating well below 100 and other times I get to race with all the other Minivans and Winnebago's. All depends on the number and type of boats signed up for that race.

Where PHRF is for dissimilar sailboats, US Sailing and the ISAF also provide for boats racing under a class rule or rating. These rules are maintained by the various class associations and are covered under their respective by-laws. For example, my Catalina 34 is also covered under its own class rule. In the Northern California YRA, we can race as a class if we have eight or more boats signed up for a particular event. As a class, we get our own start and are governed by our own class rules. If we don't qualify as a "class" (Less than eight boats) then we revert back to PHRF and do not use our own class rules. Oh, by the way I'm the chief measurer for the C34 International Association so you can see why I'm so passionate about this subject. Getting back to the "illegal hiking" controversy, because my class rules are silent on the issue, Rule 49.2 is in force for us. The Melges 24 fleet apparently has a class rule on hiking so rule 49.2 is modified for them in the RRS.


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## rbarkas (Dec 25, 2001)

Giulietta said:


> Any rule forbids it..
> 
> You can't have more than your legs hanging from the side of the boat, and that only if your butt is on the deck
> 
> ...


Not quite correct:

"49.2 When lifelines are required by the class rules or the sailing instructions they shall be taut, and competitors shall not position any part of their torsos outside them, except briefly to perform a necessary task. _On boats equipped with upper and lower lifelines of wire, a competitor sitting on the deck facing outboard with his waist inside the lower lifeline may have the upper part of his body outside the upper lifeline._"

So it's perfectly legal if your legs are outside, your butt is on the deck, and your upper body is outside between the upper and lower lines.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Not here and not in IRC...

In TP they allow that.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

GeorgeB said:


> I'm probably flogging a dead horse here, but there are still some misconceptions going around as to how our sport is governed. ....


I'd like to thank you, George, for your informed explanations..very helpful.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Giu,

I probably wasn't paying attention before, but what is "TP" and "IRC"?

O.K, now it's time for a lifeline story or two. The OYRA out here required boats to be rated for ocean 1 or 2, which means double lifelines and we would always stick our torsos out between those two lines. After all, these boats rated below 39 PHRF which meant we had to do a lot of extreme hiking to keep them upright and sailing fast. The bowman was usually the first position on the rail and his unlucky lot in life was to break the spray or wave for the rest of the rail crew. Decorum would also dictate that he should tell us if we were going to break a really big wave so we could all prepare. One time he didn't and about halfway through the wave, all I could think was "damn, I should have taken a bigger breath of air". Another time I had forgotten to disable the auto inflate feature on my vest which caused it to inflate when we got swept by a wave. Worse than the humiliation was the inflated vest pinning me between the lifelines with no way of escape. Needless to say I now do two things before an OYRA race - disable the auto inflate and always carry a spare CO2 cartridge on my person.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

IRC International Rules 

Transpac52


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Thanks for the kind note Faster. As you might have gathered racing is near to my heart. There are far too many misconceptions and distortions about racing that turns off a large segment of the sailing community and I try to demystify and correct the distortions whenever I can. Racing does not have to be that stereotype of loud mouthed, immature hotheads. It is however, an excellent way to develop your skills both as a sailor and skipper and improving your boat's capabilities as well. 

Giu, I think that your IRC and my RRS are the same basic document. Can you post your version of rule 49.2? (We can use google to translate it). I thought that TP stood for Transpac, but I wasn't sure. My last fond memory of those bad boys was a couple of years ago when two of them were using the Spinnaker Cup (San Francisco to Monterey race) as a tune up for the Transpac. They made the Aerodyne 38 (36 PHRF) I was on feel pretty small and slow when they rolled us just off of Ocean Beach, San Francisco. They probably were in Monterey before we passed Santa Cruz.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

George- Thanks for the well thoughtout and articulated posts. Very helpful.


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