# How not to go "camping" while cruising frugally



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Picking up on the "not wanting to camp" idea that came out of the _Voyaging on $500 per month_ thread, I'm curious what people actually mean when they say then want to avoid this dreaded state.

What are your key criteria for a pleasurable life afloat? I'm curious what people think, b/c personally I love camping. I also know that life on our boat is nothing like camping. Living on a boat that doesn't leak (much), with a galley, comfortable berths, tons of storage, lights, an indoor head, plumbing, etc. ... all of this is nothing like camping.

So, is it basic physical comfort? Is it being able to play ashore; purchasing entertainment, eating at restaurants, buy stuff beyond basic needs? Is it expensive food (you often hear people talk about not wanting to live on beans and rice)? Or is it more basic like being able to pay all the entrance fees that (apparently) are on the rise everywhere. Perhaps it is having lots of leisure time? Or maybe it is ease of tasks/jobs...


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

If I don't have to 'make up the bed' or 'put up the tent' at the end of the day, and can cook a meal without 'setting up the stove' then I don't think it's camping...

We started 'cruiser camping' - 24 footer, no real galley, etc 30 some years ago. I must confess that now that we're into standing headroom, propane, cabin heat, and REFRIGERATION I'm not too interested in going back


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

To me it means tourism.

There are many people cruising that dont have the money to visit the Pyramids when in Egypt, or the Colosseum when sailing Italy. 

Many of my Australian friends when they came to New York could not afford the $30 mooring fee for a few days seeing Manhattan.

As a camping cruiser one can go anywhere but see nothing.

A WOFTAM for sure.


Mark


----------



## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

I as planning on being a "camping cruiser" this winter in florida.. sadly though, my boat was not done the refit.. so next year.

It is not done to be frugal, but only because I own a 23 foot boat


----------



## Kyhillbilly (Jun 14, 2011)

Answers are sure to be all across the board. What some would consider sparse conditions others would consider luxury. The Kate and Jess blog comes to mind. They are traveling the great loop, have been to Bahamas and back and are now in flordia. No fridge, no air condition, no tv yet they do have a working pooper and a stove. They are those out there who would say no way in hell to those conditions others might say that's good enough. Gotta say I love camping as well, I better, I have a cat 22 but I sure plan on enjoying it this year .


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

I have a 4.5 K diesel generator on my boat and air conditioning. I rarely run them when cruising, but I admit it's nice every once in a while to be able to do that. I also admit I like pulling into a nice marina, every once in a while, getting a nice meal, and having a real bathroom.

But, most of the time, I'd rather just let the night breeze blow through the boat at anchor. and cook something on the grill hanging off the back


----------



## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Great topic, there are some that think staying in a 50' Winnebago is camping while others think hiking the 2700 mile Pacific crest trail is camping. One thing to keep in mind is that just because somebody is frugal or runs a simple ship does not mean that they are lacking anything in their lives. We all have difference needs and wants. A few years ago I stayed aboard a friends new Catalina 36 for two weeks while I was waiting to close on my new boat. It had every option known to man and let me tell you I could get off that boat fast enough. The night I moved aboard my simple 22' er I felt at home. BTW they both cost the same amount new


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Interesting; "Perhaps it is having lots of leisure time? Or maybe it is ease of tasks/jobs... "
This bit really caught my attention. I hope that you don't consider this a hijacking of your thread, Mike.
This statement made me consider that many of you who have not yet made the break with reality, sorry, civilization, have little idea of how those of us cruising, spend our time.
I wish I had lots more "leisure time". But if I want "leisure time", I pretty much have to take it. There's always SOMETHING that should be attended to. Not necessarily something critical or even urgent, but there's way more work than hours available, for most of us. And "ease of tasks? Chasing down a fresh water leak that is so small, the pump only runs an extra 2 minutes a day (24 hours on a boat). Or a pinhole leak in the heat exchanger, which must be removed and repaired, on the side of the generator that it isn't easy to reach (actually working with your head down and your body above). Or taking apart the cooling system on the main engine 4 times, only to realize that that annoying bit of bronze that you have been knocking your head against the whole time is a malfunctioning siphon break!
Since we don't wash down our s/s after every sail, well never, but anyway, it must be polished a couple of times a month. The hull and house require polishing every few months, and a seam let go on the dodger which we just sewed today. Yesterday it was a leaking portlight. Tomorrow it may be a diesel leak on the gene that only fills a beer bottle cap every 6 days.
A life of leisure this is not, and I won't allow Nikki to even discuss the varnish, at this point.
On the other hand, we are our own boss, we have no time table, and this life is a choice we have made, so I won't complain. Who'd listen anyway?


----------



## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

When I started camping it meant in a tent in the bush cooking over a fire, no means of keeping things cold and a handy fallen tree is a toilet. The criteria for me then was to be warm, dry and well fed. I now have a fifth wheel with a propane stove and oven, heating and air conditioning, satellite TV, Internet, cellular phones, hot and cold running water, shower and flush toilet but we still call it camping.

I never spent anymore than a couple of weeks tent camping but spend my summers now "glamping" of course I was a lot younger when I tented.

I now cruise in the winter and while we don't have all the amenities of the fifth wheel we have some which without I would consider it too much like tent camping. The main one is refrigeration, both a refrigerator and a 45 quart freezer. Refrigeration is by far the largest amp hour draw and that requires some means of generating at power - solar, wind and/or mechanical. We have Internet and cell phones which we consider a necessity wherever we are.


----------



## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Bad camping in my book: 
bad food, bad water, uncomfortable sleep, uncomfortable pooping, not easy to keep clean, too hot or too cold, too wet, lacking right clothes for conditions, lacking bug spray, bad company - and thus not able to enjoy the place where you are camped.
Most of the time I have a great time camping on my 20 foot Mirage. But I do it for 2 weeks at most.
I figure that I could be comfortable camping indefinitely on a 26 footer - with proper preparation, of course.


----------



## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

The biggest boat I have been on is a Catalina 30, I wouldn't consider living on that for a second. A weekend getaway, perfect, a week of cruising no problem. Full-time live aboard, not in your wildest dreams for me...


----------



## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

If whatever I'm in makes hot water and ice it's also got the other stuff I think required to exceed camping. We stay at the boat as much as the house, but I still need a house to store all the tools and spare parts for the boat.


----------



## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

ebs001 said:


> . I now have a fifth wheel with a propane stove and oven, heating and air conditioning, satellite TV, Internet, cellular phones, hot and cold running water, shower and flush toilet but we still call it camping.


I've been "camping" on my 27 ft. boat for almost three years now, and love it. I don't begrudge anyone for their comfortable lifestyle, but I would guess that about 80% of the people on this planet "camp" full time. And with no where near the luxury listed above. In my experience its not the expensive comforts that bring happiness. But, maybe that's just me.


----------



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

The toilet. If the toilet is cramped or smelly or untrustworthy, it's camping. If I have to plan my poops, it's camping.


----------



## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

...as an addendum to my post above....I used to liveaboard back in the early 90's. before internet, and before cell-phones, and it got very lonely. I think the connection to the outside world makes a huge difference.


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

If every task aboard (other than sailing) requires you to move something to do something, and you can only do one thing at a time, and cannot stand up while doing it, it is camping. if you have to remove a cushion to use the stove, and the head is under the v-berth, you're camping.


----------



## polaris2.11 (Mar 21, 2012)

We call cruising on our Hunter 23.5 'pampered' camping. The longest trip so far has been 13 days. We were as ready to go on day 13 as day 1. I spent a coupla decades making several trips a year living out of a kayak for up to a week at a time. Our dear Willadine is luxurious to me.

That said, for the eventual live-aboard, we will need more room for stuff and the occasional kid or two aboard.


----------



## Torch (Dec 9, 2013)

Comparing cruising frugally and camping is comparing apples to oranges. They are two totally different things.

Maybe you can compare camping with living-aboard. Cruising, on the other hand, is moving from place to place, not 'camping'.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Thanks for all the great posts folks. Quite the diversity (as expected), although there are some themes emerging. Seems that many of us want a nice pot to piss in, and a few of you have mentioned the need for refrigeration, A/C, and hot water. Others are saying size matters  You need standing head room, and enough space to have dedicated berths, galley, etc. So far, only Mark (MarkofSeaLife) has mentioned the need for enough funds to pay for land-based entertainment/tourism. 

Capta, you pointed out the reality for most of us: that living on a sailboat is not an escape from work. Just the opposite -- I agree. I've been in your inverted position all too often, trying to get at our stuffing box, change some hose, or wire our latest electrical doo-dad. But for those with enough money, it is possible to pay someone else to be the bilge rat. I wonder ... is that the demarcation for "camping"?

The reason I posed the question is b/c of the number of times I see people on SN dismiss frugal or simple cruising with, "that's just camping." So, I want to try and tease this apart. Keep it coming!


----------



## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Torch said:


> Comparing cruising frugally and camping is comparing apples to oranges. They are two totally different things.
> 
> Maybe you can compare camping with living-aboard. Cruising, on the other hand, is moving from place to place, not 'camping'.


To me crushing is camping in its own way like hiking the pacific crest trail from Canada to mexico you are cruising you have a starting point resupply points and a final destination. Just as in cruising like suppose you leave Seattle to go to Fiji you would make your way down the coast of the us stopping as needed for food and fuel all the way to Avalon panama there you would wait for a good weather window for the run to the marquesas. It all depends on how much ''comfort'' you want or feel you need. Its all a personal choice. Me I can do without the cell phone and internet just when free WiFi is available I will use it with my cheap 80 dollar tablet


----------



## cthoops (Apr 30, 2012)

I think the key to a pleasurable life afloat definitely depends on the person. 

Mr. Cthoops and I have done plenty of camping, and we just finished our first year with our boat including spending two weeks straight on it in September. 

To me, sleeping "indoors" on a mattress, not having to schlep to a bathroom to pee/poop (we have a Thetford on the boat), not having to take our dishes to a community sink - these are all things that make staying on our boat vastly superior to camping. I am 100% convinced that I could live aboard our boat. 

Mr. Cthoops on the other hand would agree with all of above, with the exception of the fact that he is 6'4" so he can't fully stretch out in the berth. He can get more comfortable on an extra-long cot in a tent. He could not live full-time on our boat. 

So for him, spending time on the boat is probably a bit more like camping. For me, the boat is far superior. Again, to me it depends on the person.


----------



## socal c25 (Nov 1, 2013)

I have a Coronado 25, more than a tent and not quite a motor home either, kinda in between, it has a galley (stove no oven, ice box, sink, head, lights) I have 5'6" head room so I have to sloutch down a little, not my wife though. I still wouldn't have a problem on a two week cruise, three weeks might be pushing the limits. LOL


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Another good thread, thanks Mike.
Re Capta's comment; you know we have to do all those things whether we travel many miles or keep our boat in the marina, which might explain the number of derelicts we see.
For me to spend significant time cruising I would need; a comfortable, dry berth, an efficient, functional galley, a stand up shower and separate toilet, sufficient water so that task only comes around once a week, standing head room, a really good chair, a navigation station and of course really superb sailing qualities. If I want my wife along I would need to add a refrigerator/freezer, hot and cold pressure water.
When we go camping it is in a tent, dragon fly cook stove, thermarest ultra lite mattresses and public toilets and showers and we do much less of that these days.
John


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

cthoops said:


> I think the key to a pleasurable life afloat definitely depends on the person.


I think you're right Mrs. Cthoops . But I think you and the last few posters have hit on an important factor: headroom. To me, a shelter is a purely functional thing, like a tent or a quinsy. Keeps the weather out, but probably can't stand to change my pants. On my boat I can stand, walk around, and have enough space to forget where I've put things.



ccriders said:


> For me to spend significant time cruising I would need; a comfortable, dry berth, an efficient, functional galley, a stand up shower and separate toilet, sufficient water so that task only comes around once a week, standing head room, a really good chair, a navigation station and of course really superb sailing qualities. If I want my wife along I would need to add a refrigerator/freezer, hot and cold pressure water.
> When we go camping it is in a tent, dragon fly cook stove, thermarest ultra lite mattresses and public toilets and showers and we do much less of that these days.


Thanks John. I'd agree with most of your comments. I'm still on the fence re: refrigeration. Our shower is a solar cockpit version, and I get along just fine without hot water. But I'm with you on many of your items.


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

"for those with enough money, it is possible to pay someone else to be the bilge rat. I wonder ... is that the demarcation for "camping""
Not for me; doing it myself is called self preservation. There's not going to be a tech with me out in a 40 knot northerly in the stream, when some piece of gear is making waves of it's own.
As for the camping thing, I've given it a lot of thought. For me, I guess "camping" aboard a boat is when I'm living out of my sea bag. If I can stow my clothes and sleep somewhere dry, hang my foulies in a locker and put my tooth brush and tooth paste away in the head, then I'm not "camping" aboard. There's been a considerable number of deliveries on hurricane damaged boats or bareboats at the end of their term, that were nightmares equipment, convenience and comfort wise, but a dry bunk and my gear stowed, made it tolerable.


----------



## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Mike... great thread and thanks for starting this one... When I was in Seattle (Everett) I had an apartment in downtown Seattle and paid plenty for it while doing some work for Boeing... I left it behind when I bought a 25 foot US Yacht in Everett and never looked back. It was the best decision I have done... it was a live aboard and while I had the marina to use the facilities I never looked at it as camping. Great folks at the marina too and made plenty of friends... I put in a microwave, small refrig, and induction stove... it was and still is great... the sailboat sits in Everett marina still while I'm here in Montreal... haven't trailered it back to Savannah yet... still looking for the best time to get to it.

I know cruising frugally is the theme of this thread and I'm sure you've gotten some good ideas... I really think part of this means having good savings, great places to cruise to, knowing how to frugally eat but not skimp on essentials, etc. I still have several years before my wife and I leave things behind to go cruising, the problem mainly is letting go of 'land ties'... we have a big house with land we planted many fruit trees and such and was hoping to retire to the house but want to cruise 6 months or more in the year... how does one let go realizing no one is there to take care of your 'possessions', gardens, cars, etc... How does one let go... we are looking at a larger boat of say 32-36 ft to be comfortable for myself, wife, and couple of adult children and grandson when the time to cruise with them arises... so it cannot be 'camp/cruising' the way I would want it to be... How do I bring my baby grand on the boat... I would miss that too much!


----------



## Simon123 (Nov 29, 2007)

For me, you aren't camping when you don't need an end date. I've done all the way down to "make a snow shelter and kill a grouse with a stick for dinner" camping and all the way up to "back the truck up and run the extension cord to the the site" camping. For me, if I don't need the knowledge of a warm dry home to go to eventually then I'm not camping. So far, all I've ever done in my boat is camp, because part of my mindset when things go wrong is that I just need to endure this until it's over instead of it being all there is.


----------



## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I think age is another important factor, when I was 30 I was more like a 50 year old, I owned 7 luxury vacation rentals and lived in all of them between guests. As a product of my environment I was quite spoiled and needed much more that of the average person.

I was unhappy having too much money and moved on eventually living in my car for a year and a half to film a documentary around the country. When people asked me how I got a good looking girl to live on such a small boat I always replied that I made her live in the car first, the 24 Allegra was a mansion compared to that.

Now that I'm 45 I'm really thirty have zero stress and love my life. Where we are coming from makes a huge difference. My 30 year old self would have hated me at 45 but life changes us. The years dont shape us into who we are, they strip away who we aren't.


----------



## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

guitarguy56 said:


> how does one let go realizing no one is there to take care of your 'possessions', gardens, cars, etc... How does one let go... we are looking at a larger boat of say 32-36 ft to be comfortable for myself, wife, and couple of adult children and grandson when the time to cruise with them arises... so it cannot be 'camp/cruising' the way I would want it to be... How do I bring my baby grand on the boat... I would miss that too much!


Jimmy buffet. gypseys in the palace is a song that comes to mind :laugher:laugher


----------



## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

What is so bad about camping ? The trick is wanting what you have. Enjoy what comes to you. Sounds just to easy ?
I would not go out of my way to camp on MT. Everest or try to climb it. Many folks blessed with the grace to do this, enjoy it or pass from the world trying .
At this point I do not see myself tacking up wind in the Southern Ocean or trying to anchor a 60ft yacht in the Med or the Eclipse the most expensive yacht in the world , 
Are the people doing either extreme vastly and completely happy ? Do they spend time wondering or just wishing they were average ? 
The way I see it if you have someone to love, you are not hungry, thirsty and have a dry warm bed, you are on the way.
Time is.... Yes time is Time is perishable The future is unknown. The past is gone. The present is our gift. The memory is our savings. Will it grow or diminish it is up to you.
I may get to camp on my Catalina-22
Enjoy, Lou


----------



## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

I think in general "camping" can be seen as a transitory life style, an acceptable way to live for a short period of time. I have camped on canoe trips for periods up to two weeks where everything we had, had to be carried over portages and fit in a 15 foot canoe. I enjoyed those experiences very much. It would have been far different, for me and for many others I suspect, had those times been for months or years.

When I cruise for a few months each year we bring food with us. We seldom eat at a restaurant. Since leaving the dock in Brunswick Ga. we have not eaten ashore except for a couple of times we had ice cream cones and we went out for Thanksgiving dinner. We anchor or take a mooring ball almost all the time. We have running water, indoor plumbing, separate head, propane stove and oven, refrigeration, if we really need it a heater (we may need it soon it's supposed to go down to 60F on Thursday night) and we have computers, Internet and cell phones. This we do for many months at a time usually about six.

We don't have tv, a microwave, electric coffee maker, espresso machine, ice cube maker electric toaster dishwasher but we get along just fine and I would not consider this to be "camping" although a lot of my dirt dwelling friends do.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

This seems to be a parsing of the figurative definition of camping, rather than literal.

While it would remain relative to each individual, I would say it refers to living quarters that would be considered temporary and below the occupants desired long term quality of life.

If I tried to describe what it meant to me to remain above "camping", it would be living quarters that I could turn a key, enter and comfortably go to sleep. Remain warm, dry or cool at will with hot and cold food available in sufficient quantity that I'm not concerned about whether I will get to a store in time to replenish or whether I can store them indefinitely. Toilets must also be fairly effortless.

When I do camp, in some cases carrying everything I need to live on my back, survival becomes work. It's part of what I enjoy about it, you are fully occupied in the basics: movement, nurishment and shelter (used to be shoot, move and communicate in past life  ). None will just happen without effort and management. I admit that I almost never camp for the sake of it, rather camp willingly as a necessity, such as to hike a mountain. If there were a hotel on the summit, I would probably check in.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Ok, I have one more. If you could not willing ride out having the flu, with its requisite fever, aches, needing to be warm and fed properly, changing your sweat drenched clothes and bathing with minimal effort in a given accommodation, its probably camping.


----------



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

if on your boat:
- you have to crawl from spot to spot
- have no running water
- crap in a bucket
- go outside to pee
- have to eat out of a can/pouch
- are cooking on a stove that uses small bottles for fuel
- look for a dry spot to sleep when it rains
- think that for the most part it is nicer outside than in
- read at night with a flashlight


Then your boat is more like a tent than a home, and you are camping.

But then there is whole difference between cruising verse living on a boat in a foreign place topic.


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Mark makes an interesting point when he equates camping with not being able to afford to visit the places that you are anchored off of.

Being a prisoner on your own vessel, no matter what its accommodations are, is probably an unhappy existence. Cruising on a small, spartan vessel but still being able to explore the places you visit, would be a much happier life. I sense that is where Barefoot Navigator is coming from.

For my part, I spent my formative years aboard nuclear submarines. My personal space consisted of a 6X2.8 foot bunk pan that was 6 inches deep. I could barely fit all of my required uniforms and toiletries in that space. Sometimes, I could smuggle a few personal items in the ventilation ducts up in the Radio Room.

By comparison, my Pearson 30 is a palace. I lived aboard for a brief period, and I even passed Minnewaska's "Flu Test". I sailed, I cruised a bit. The boat was always tidy. I didn't have to treat the boat like a giant, Jenga puzzle to access my belongings. The toilet is private, and didn't smell.

It didn't feel like camping, it felt like a more simple life, unencumbered by a lot of material possessions. It's a good life.


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Great thread, Mike. Something i didn't consider when I posted my first answer is that one can answer the question from an equipment standpoint, or one can answer the question from a philosophical standpoint.

From an equipment standpoint, the Pardeys camped for decades- no shorepower, no head, etc., but, philosophically, it was a choice- it was what they wanted to do. If you are living minimally but DON'T want to, but simply have no other option, if you can't be a tourist, if you can't afford a hot shower and a decent restaurant meal and a laundromat once in a while, it is a miserable existence.


----------



## 34crealock (Dec 30, 2012)

Some comic once said, " If they don't have room service, it's camping." What Faster said suits me fine.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

You guys & gals are great. Such thoughtful posts. Thank you!

I'm liking this idea that "camping" happens when your personal vision and goals don't match your physcial reality. If you are someone who needs things like hot water, shower, refrigeration, a larger boat, money for entertainment, and a baby grand ( love that image guitarguy56), then cruising with less will feel like "camping." If you are purposely living a frugal and simple cruising life, or have never known anything different, then the lack of these things won't matter. In fact, the lack of these things may be essential.

Hmmm....


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Omatako said:


> I expect from my boat what I expect from my home, cold beer, hot showers, water when I need it, frozen storage for fish I catch and so on.


I've snatched this comment from the "Voyaging on $500/month" thread b/c Omatako responded to my initial post that started this thread. Hope that's OK Omatako.

I think your comment is bang on here, and sums up the different views that people have towards their cruising lifestyle. Most people don't change easily or voluntarily. Change usually comes out of necessity. People who live a luxurious life on land (and we could discuss what "luxury" means...) will need/want this same level when they go to sea. The opposite is also true. And why not? For most of us, going to sea is not some sort of spiritual challenge. It's an extension of one's life.

I know ... hardly a revelation. But perhaps this explains (in part) the apparent changing nature of cruising, and the commensurate attitudes people bring. From the increase in average boat size, to the expansion of electronics, safety gear, engine size (both boat and dingy), and the need for fancier food and expensive tourism activities ... all of this parallels the changing land-based lifestyles of those who go cruising.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I think it's a bit of an evolutionary thing too.. Our club is about to hit its 50th anniversary. Quite a few charter members are still around. At its formation the members thought nothing of going out in bad weather, one or two kids and a dog, on a homebuilt 22 footer for days at a time.

Now many sailing newbies buy in a 35-40 feet plus, with all the amenities.. Not universally but a significant number. Is it disposable income? a sense of entitlement? are we getting 'soft'??


----------



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

MikeOReilly said:


> the changing land-based lifestyles


Things have changed so much. The house I live in was built in 1942 with 700 sq ft, two bedrooms, and one bathroom. It's near Fort Snelling and the VA and it was considered an appropriate size for a returning soldier to live a nice life with his wife and a couple kids.

Now it's had a second floor and a second bathroom added, and at 1200 sq ft it's considered "a bit small" for two.


----------



## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

I think the difference between "camping" and feeling as comfortable on your boat as you would at home lies in the small details. First of all, let me say that I don't believe one needs a large or complex boat with a lot of "systems" to be truly comfortable. It's the little details like a having a good mattress and using nice sheets (rather than a sleeping bag) that make the difference to me. It's having a decent galley with all the tools and ingredients so you can cook like you do at home (no canned stuff!). It's having a comfortable place to sit and eat, a good reading light, a decent selection of wines, a shady cockpit with properly angled deep coamings that are perfect for relaxing. It's large hatches and good ventilation. It's having a decent stereo, a large selection of music and bookshelves full of books that makes the difference. It's having your clothes in closets and not in a dufflebag under the settee. I can only think one one "gadget" that truly makes life on board more comfortable - the fridge! Of course, this is a personal matter and everyone has their notions of what makes a boat comfortable and not like "camping". In my case I have all I need and want in a 35-foot boat and wouldn't want a bigger or more complex boat. 

Capta raises a good point about loading on a lot of gadgets and systems to make your life aboard more "comfortable"- the added complexity means you spend most of your time keeping everything up and running when you could be relaxing and enjoying yourself. In the pursuit of getting the boat just like home (ie. gadgets and systems) one can end up a slave to the boat. I met a couple while I was cruising over the xmas and new years on the coast of Rio who are a case in point. They couldn't (wouldn't?) leave their boat for more than a few hours as it represented their entire net worth and were afraid of leaving their baby vulnerable. They had to be there every day to run the engine for the fridge and freezer or run the watermaker. Different strokes I guess.


----------



## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

BTW, great thread Mike!!


----------



## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

We much prefer spending time on our boat toward the "camping" end of the spectrum. Maintaining all the luxuries of home on a boat is way too much work and just a distraction from what we really enjoy. Don't need much to enjoy sailing, fishing, swimming, reading, and sipping beer (which may be warm due to no refrigeration, but hey, it works). 

By choice we don't use most of the basic amenities on our boat. We've never used the fully functioning marine head, and opt for wag bags and toss them in the trash, no pump outs or maintenance on that front. Don't usually use the water tank and system, bring jugs aboard. Don't use the shower, that's what all that water around the boat is for. 

The idea of having a TV onboard is just very unsettling to us. We do bring cell phones on board and can charge them, but tend to turn them off and stow them away.

We're weekend cruisers mostly with some longer periods during the summer, so we use the boat to get away from our regular lives and to live at a slower more simpler pace.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

caberg said:


> .....snip....
> 
> The idea of having a TV onboard is just very unsettling to us. We do bring cell phones on board and can charge them, but tend to turn them off and stow them away.
> 
> We're weekend cruisers mostly with some longer periods during the summer, so we use the boat to get away from our regular lives and to live at a slower more simpler pace.


We will use shoreside facilities over the on board head whenever they are available - but fortunately we can go the other way if we need to...

+1 on the 'no TV'.. We cruise 6-8 weeks each summer, don't get TV, never listen to the news, it's a true 'getaway'. To this point we haven't even watched movies on a laptop, don't have a DVD. Books and games (yes, some on the iPad) fill our time. In fact, if I try to read a book in the cockpit I get nowhere because there's always something to see, watch, notice, enjoy as a distraction.

After years of buying ice, worrying about foodstuffs, I have to say that keeping food safe and beer cold is one amenity we really enjoy. It comes at a cost, of course, in power usage and charging issues but that's addressable nowadays if perhaps less than 'frugal'. Not having to boil water to do dishes is another 'non camping' amenity we'd rather not be without again.

Our boat has a shower.. we never use that, and always keep a sunshower bag full at the ready.

So I guess we're somewhat straddling the fence. But our memories and the enjoyment we had in our early 'cruising camping' days is in no way diminished by our added 'comforts' today.


----------



## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

if you're not comfortable you're camping !


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

unless you are comfortable camping.


----------



## Lake Superior Sailor (Aug 23, 2011)

If you think being on a boat is camping: You can't go camping with me!.........Dale


----------



## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> if on your boat:
> - you have to crawl from spot to spot
> - have no running water
> - crap in a bucket
> ...


That sounds just like several of my friends and brothers in arms who live like that for a year or more a a time so we can complain about not having a hot shower when we want one


----------



## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Faster said:


> I think it's a bit of an evolutionary thing too.. Our club is about to hit its 50th anniversary. Quite a few charter members are still around. At its formation the members thought nothing of going out in bad weather, one or two kids and a dog, on a homebuilt 22 footer for days at a time.
> 
> *Now many sailing newbies buy in a 35-40 feet plus, with all the amenities.. Not universally but a significant number. Is it disposable income? a sense of entitlement? are we getting 'soft'??*


Faster-

I think a significant percentage of the reason, is fear.
This fear is actively marketed by manufacturers AND old some old salts.
Too many new sailors immediately equate size with safety, instead of equating design and construction quality with safety.

A Nor'sea 27 for instance, may be safer offshore than a 34 foot production boat with huge windows and a thin hull with no bulkheads.


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> I'm liking this idea that "camping" happens when your personal vision and goals don't match your physcial reality. If you are someone who needs things like hot water, shower, refrigeration, a larger boat, money for entertainment, and a baby grand ( love that image guitarguy56), then cruising with less will feel like "camping." If you are purposely living a frugal and simple cruising life, or have never known anything different, then the lack of these things won't matter. In fact, the lack of these things may be essential.
> 
> Hmmm....


I think many of the problems arise from people being under the impression that one actually _CAN_ "avoid" a certain degree of "camping" when on a small boat... Sorry, but I don't care what sort of boat you sail, or how impervious your cockpit enclosure might be to the elements ... Sooner or later, you're gonna wind up living in a style akin to camping...

One of the most miserable, prolonged periods of discomfort and deprivation I've ever had on a sailing yacht, was during a passage to the Caribbean on one of the highest-end, most technically 'advanced' and tricked-out boats I've ever sailed... Highly reliant upon various 'systems' to maintain a level of comfort, and when they started to fail or become unusable, life aboard became more like camping...

Watermaker failure early in the trip dictated serious rationing, one shower apiece for the last week. Good thing there were no ladies aboard  As the toilets also relied upon FRESH water, their use was seriously curtailed, as well... Toting buckets of seawater through such a boat while bashing into the Trades for 700 miles gets pretty old, very quickly... 

This was a boat relying heavily upon 'climate control' for comfort below... This became very problematic as we got into the trades, when we were hard on the wind, taking lots of water on deck, and could open no hatches for ventilation below... (Those Old School, low-tech Dorades, of course, have become hopelessly outmoded, today) So, running the AC was necessary... Problem was, we were heeled sufficiently that the generator would shut down due to a low oil pressure sensor. That became moot, anyway, when the auxiliary water pump that was required to lift raw cooling water to the extraordinary height above the waterline where the generator was situated failed, and we had no backup... So, that resulted in having to run the main engine for battery charging, which of course resulted in greater fuel consumption, thus translating to even more stringent energy conservation measure aboard...

Perhaps the greatest deprivation suffered from days of living at 25 degrees of heel, was the inconvenience of simply making coffee... This boat had a huge Miele coffee/cappucino machine worthy of a Starbucks, but of course couldn't be used on a significant angle of heel. So, whenever someone had a major craving, we had to bear off to get the boat more upright...

Electric Leisure-Furl boom crapped out before we even crossed the Gulf Stream, so one of us had to suit up and go to the mast anyway every time we took in, or shook out, a reef... So much for the expectation that reefing would be a simple push-button affair from the relative comfort of the cockpit...

Bottom line was, I have NEVER been so happy to tie up at the Bitter End, after what in theory should have been a comparatively luxurious passage on a CW Boat of the Year winner... 

So, in my view, it's a mistake to suppose one will be able to avoid some aspects of camping on a small yacht, over the long haul... Don't rely excessively on complex systems you cannot maintain or repair on the fly, and have manual backups in place for anything requiring the flow of electrons... While stuff like manual galley pumps, or a means of collecting rainwater may seem to add an aspect of 'camping' to any boat, when your electric freshwater pump goes on the fritz, or your watermaker dies, your life aboard will become much more like camping without having such comparatively crude, rudimentary alternatives at your disposal...


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Faster-
> 
> I think a significant percentage of the reason, is fear.
> This fear is actively marketed by manufacturers AND old some old salts.


And marketed well, it seems...

At the same time, if you 'look' through the active SN roster there seems to be a pretty high percentage who are firmly in the 25-30 foot range and doing just fine!


----------



## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

This quote from Thoreau's Walden seems too apropos to this thread to pass up:

"Some things are really necessaries of life in some circles, the most helpless and diseased, which in others are luxuries merely, and in others still are entirely unknown."


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Re: Standing Headroom
As I age, I've become acutely aware of the importance of posture for several reasons.
First, good balance depends on good posture.
Flexibility and mobility are enhanced with good posture.
Good posture helps you prevent a lot of pain, like sciatica and stiff neck and lower back.
Living for any time at all in a crouched or hunched position is not good for the aging body. Spry young people recover quickly and most of the physical activity on a sailboat is therapeutic, but maintaining good posture while standing is preventive.
John


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Until about 200 years ago, most of humanity was camping. I'm triggering off indoor plumbing as a tipping point. Not that long really.


----------



## Tallswede (Jul 18, 2012)

I really like this thread as well as the $500 thread. Lots to learn as I hope to do some small cruises on my little boat. As far as "Camping" goes, there are so many levels of home living and what people expect out of living it is amazing. I remember once my well to do aunt visiting us at our modest home which was about all my Mom could afford. We thought we had it made and were very comfortable but my aunt declared "I couldn't live like this". Well I think if you are not at "Home" you are camping. You may be fancy camping but you are not at "Home". If your boat is your "Home" then you are not "Camping" no matter what your living conditions are. Everyone has their own definition of "Home". For me to have a boat as a "Home" it would have to have 6'4"+ of headroom and a working stove/oven and a roomy head. It would have to have some heat for the winter and good ventilation for the summer. It would need a roomy berth and comfy cockpit. Every thing else I think I could work around. Now my wife on the other hand would say she needs a bit more! LOL.


----------



## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> .
> 
> What are your key criteria for a pleasurable life afloat?


For me it's a combination of things.

It's a different world out there beyond the shore. No really! There's different locales, different towns, villages, it's different wild places, and then there are islands(!),all of which we access on our boat, and not that far away. It's like magic that we can do that, just ask somebody who doesn't sail.

Even though our boat is very comfortable and not at all like camping, it doesn't feel the same on jackstands as it does, at anchor.

We live a similar life while sailing, that we do at home. Good food, good company, good travel. There's no real 'roughing' it(it takes practice to do that well), for us anymore.

And we're coastal cruisers so our time on the boat is more like that of vacations, long weekends, a month at your 'summer cottage', that sort of thing. It's not full time.

It's real time off for us, in a high quality of life environment, all done underway and moving, because we sail.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> I think many of the problems arise from people being under the impression that one actually _CAN_ "avoid" a certain degree of "camping" when on a small boat... Sorry, but I don't care what sort of boat you sail, or how impervious your cockpit enclosure might be to the elements ... Sooner or later, you're gonna wind up living in a style akin to camping...
> 
> One of the most miserable, prolonged periods of discomfort and deprivation I've ever had on a sailing yacht, was during a passage to the Caribbean on one of the highest-end, most technically 'advanced' and tricked-out boats I've ever sailed... Highly reliant upon various 'systems' to maintain a level of comfort, and when they started to fail or become unusable, life aboard became more like camping...
> 
> ... While stuff like manual galley pumps, or a means of collecting rainwater may seem to add an aspect of 'camping' to any boat, when your electric freshwater pump goes on the fritz, or your watermaker dies, your life aboard will become much more like camping without having such comparatively crude, rudimentary alternatives at your disposal...


Thanks Jon. Your anecdote illustrates some of the reasons I prefer systems that either very reliable, and/or that I can understand and easily maintain. I prefer manual pumps, windlass, and winches. I would not want to rely on electric reefing systems, and I absolutely love my windvane over my electric autopilot. My composting (desiccating) head I adore, not for any environmental benefits, but b/c it is far simpler than other marine heads.

But I'm no a technophobe. I also use complex systems such as a GPS for navigation, a VHF for communications, and even have some electric pumps. If these were to go pfffftttt I probably could not fix them (perhaps the pumps), but they are very robust pieces of equipment that I can rely on.

There are those of us who promote the benefits of simplicity, but what I really think we're suggesting is that we need systems that are either very reliable, or systems that can be sustained with the capabilities each person has.

A boat set up like this is not "camping." It is just sensible living.


----------



## BMLipiec (Feb 3, 2009)

Mike,
Great thread. When my wife and I began planning to go cruising, years back, she was adamant that she was not going if she had to go “camping”. In her mind, she wanted at least a similar quality of life as she did on land. Nothing smaller than a 40 foot boat would do, had to have a microwave, etc, etc. However, as we talked about what we could and could not afford (or fit) onto the boat, she gradually softened her stance. I think as she read more and realized that unless we were rich, there was no way we could maintain the same lifestyle on the water. I kept telling her that while it wasn’t camping, it would not even be close to living on land. She would have to relax her standard or we would not go cruising at all – she could keep driving to work in rush hour traffic, and work a job that she hated or we could go cruising and put up with some inconveniences. I think that was the moment she shifted gears and committed entirely to going cruising.

I think it also brings up a couple of other points. What is camping to some is not to others. I have friends who believe that sleeping in a tent is considered wussy camping – sleep under the stars or what’s the point, they say. I have another friend who refuses to sleep in an RV because it is too uncomfortable – she wouldn’t make it one night on even the plushest of yachts in a rolly anchorage. We all have varying degrees of what we consider hardship or comfort, and what we will accept. 

Lastly, I think it is unreasonable (unless you are Bill Gates) to think that you can replicate life ashore on a boat. My whole living space on our boat is the smaller than many modern master bathrooms, and our galley resembles a kid’s play kitchen much more than any modern kitchen. I think the quickest way to ruin a cruise is to have unrealistic expectations of what living on a boat is really like. I remember reading one couple’s blog that had a 45 foot catamaran with every amenity you can think of (washer and dryer, dive compressor, etc.) decided they were done because they said they hated fixing all the gear, and “hated camping”.

Freedom isn’t free. What are you willing to pay?


----------



## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

BMLipiec said:


> Mike,
> Great thread. When my wife and I began planning to go cruising, years back, she was adamant that she was not going if she had to go "camping". In her mind, she wanted at least a similar quality of life as she did on land. Nothing smaller than a 40 foot boat would do, had to have a microwave, etc, etc. However, as we talked about what we could and could not afford (or fit) onto the boat, she gradually softened her stance. I think as she read more and realized that unless we were rich, there was no way we could maintain the same lifestyle on the water. I kept telling her that while it wasn't camping, it would not even be close to living on land. She would have to relax her standard or we would not go cruising at all - she could keep driving to work in rush hour traffic, and work a job that she hated or we could go cruising and put up with some inconveniences. I think that was the moment she shifted gears and committed entirely to going cruising.
> 
> I think it also brings up a couple of other points. What is camping to some is not to others. I have friends who believe that sleeping in a tent is considered wussy camping - sleep under the stars or what's the point, they say. I have another friend who refuses to sleep in an RV because it is too uncomfortable - she wouldn't make it one night on even the plushest of yachts in a rolly anchorage. We all have varying degrees of what we consider hardship or comfort, and what we will accept.
> ...


In my opinion this is the best reply on this thread so far.


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

I think we all have some minimum level of comfort. "Camping" is just a convenient way of labeling existence below that minimum level. 

Comforts are quite separate at least in my mind from redundancy and failure modes.

For example, I have an electric toilet with a human-sized seat. While data indicates that electric toilets are more reliable than manual ones, I do carry a spare macerator just in case.

Comfort for me includes a dry and comfortable place to sleep with real bedding and enough room to roll over and preferably to share the space with a companion without having to crawl over one another to go to the head at night.

A galley I can really cook in including refrigeration and preferably a freezer. 

I can live without generator and A/C but it sure as added to quality of life when one of us is sick.

I have to have comfortable places to sit, below and above, while reading or working. 

Standing headroom, separate shower, good ventilation, heat, and adequate secure storage for the odds and ends (mostly tools and cooking stuff interestingly) that make me happy.


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Hey Jon, the most pertinent part is this thread for me is:



JonEisberg said:


> Toting buckets of seawater through such a boat while bashing into the Trades for 700 miles gets pretty old, very quickly...


I have once bashed into the Trades for 5 weeks sailing from Seychelles to Indonesia. That's a mugs game and should be avoided at all costs. It is not just the toys that take a beating, the whole boat does. If that is part of a cruising plan, revise the plan or pay the price. The Trades are relentless.

One of the primary deciders when I plan to add a piece of kit to my boat is "Can this be made any simpler and still work effectively?" followed by "If it still fails at sea, is it a train-smash?". Example, our watermaker is a fundamental piece of gear that runs only when the main engine runs and depends only on manual valve to build pressure. When we have to motor, we make water. But we also store 1000 litres when full. So we can go for several weeks without making water. But when we do motor, we fill the tanks at a rate of 150 litres an hour.



JonEisberg said:


> Watermaker failure early in the trip dictated serious rationing, one shower apiece for the last week.


Most commercially available water makers are very complex things and I suspect the only reason is that the makers have to justify the outrageous prices. They really don't have to be complex. Of course it helps being able to make these things yourself.



JonEisberg said:


> So, in my view, it's a mistake to suppose one will be able to avoid some aspects of camping on a small yacht, over the long haul...


Agreed but there is a considerable difference between making do when a system crashes and leaving on an extended cruise without the system in the first place. If our watermaker crashes, we also have rain catchers and huge storage so we're not threatened.

Just to be clear, I speak above of watermakers but that is just an example, the same philosophy extends to all other equipment on our boat where possible.


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Faster said:


> And marketed well, it seems...
> 
> At the same time, if you 'look' through the active SN roster there seems to be a pretty high percentage who are firmly in the 25-30 foot range and doing just fine!


Yes but to be fair, many if not most of the small-boat owners on SN consider a weekend on the boat to be "cruising". Not that I have anything against that but to me cruising is being in the South Pacific for 6 months where procuring even the basic requirements of life are a challenge.

Sailing from marina to marina requires no "systems" and prolific shore-side facilities remove a lot of the aspects of "camping".


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

SVAuspicious said:


> I think we all have some minimum level of comfort. "Camping" is just a convenient way of labeling existence below that minimum level.
> 
> Comforts are quite separate at least in my mind from redundancy and failure modes.
> 
> ...


I could have written this post myself - my sentiments exactly (except I don't have AC). Thanks for saving me the trouble


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

BMLipiec said:


> ... I think the quickest way to ruin a cruise is to have unrealistic expectations of what living on a boat is really like. I remember reading one couple's blog that had a 45 foot catamaran with every amenity you can think of (washer and dryer, dive compressor, etc.) decided they were done because they said they hated fixing all the gear, and "hated camping".


All well said Brian. I totally agree with you, especially about expectations. Life afloat is going to be different. Otherwise, why bother? But it seems to me there is a strong theme of boaters trying to bring all of their shore amenities onto the boat. Anything less is apparently like "camping."

As an aside, I wonder if this is the why cats are becoming increasingly popular. A 40' cat has more space than my house!



BMLipiec said:


> Freedom isn't free. What are you willing to pay?


Exactly.



SVAuspicious said:


> I think we all have some minimum level of comfort. "Camping" is just a convenient way of labeling existence below that minimum level.


Yes, but it appears that this "minimum level" seems to be going up all the time. You're a long long-time cruiser. What have you seen?


----------



## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

Camping is what you do when you are away from home. If your boat is your home you are not camping - no matter how primitive your systems are.

Even the Hilton is camping using this definition. I hate living out of a suitcase.


----------



## joyinPNW (Jan 7, 2013)

When we cruised through the San Juans and Gulf Islands on our previous boat, a nicely restored San Juan 24, people would often remark how "cute" our boat was, and how we "were camping..." We had a portable potty, a water bladder for freshwater, alcohol cooking stove, and an outboard motor. Our headroom was sitting room only. Everything was tidy and put away.

Our current boat has a head, 2 sleeping areas, fridge, etc. But, no heat yet. We have people still remark, "well, without heat it's camping..." 

We feel like we've really moved up and can't imagine how we could be more comfortable but it's all a matter of perspective and that depends on where you start, I suppose. We're just grateful to enjoy what we have.

Mike, btw, I'm really enjoying your writing and analysis. Great thread.


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

joyinPNW said:


> Mike, btw, I'm really enjoying your writing and analysis. Great thread.


Me too.
John


----------



## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

MikeGuyver said:


> if you're not comfortable you're camping !


Stop. This is making camping a dirty word ? Next up SAILING Its slow you can not always go the exact way you want to go Your speed and ETA are at the mercy of the weather. If you get a boat with a large engine you can go in comfort and control 
What is so bad about camping if it is a choice to do it ? If you are under a bridge sleeping because you have no place else . You are not camping. If you have to sleep in a boat that is hot/cold and leaks may you be blessed with a better future.
I am not comfortable when I go for a run, swim laps, Do some math calculations and any number of activities. Good folks climb to the top of MT Everest and sail the Southern Ocean but not for comfort. 
Mike your post was the short and sweet That is why I like it you cut out all the fat I could pick it an we can all see a clear view I hope.
Next lets have fun If we enjoy a large motor vessel with a paid crew or a sunfish with the kids. It is all good.
Kind Regards, Lou


----------



## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Mike, thanks for leading such a thoughtful discussion. I like “expectation of comfort level” used for defining “camping” rather than an empirical one like “no hot water” or “no refrigeration”. What shouldn’t creep into the discussion is distain of individual life styles or middle class envy. I like the idea that “comfort” and “camping” lie on a spectrum and not as a single point. To a very large degree, my wife’s comfort level (she is a girley girl) dictates how we define “camping”. Interestingly, she is OK with “camping” during passages, but when we drop anchor or make port she wants to be more comfortable. Clutter is a big issue for her. So is a well-appointed galley and fresh food.

What is missing from the discussion is the demographics to characterize where we are on the spectrum. For example, by the time “we turn left at the Gate” for the last time, MrsB and I will be sixty. We will be doing Mexico. I am planning on being at sea for no more than a week at any one time and plan on being away from replenishments for up to two weeks at a time. So we view refrigeration as a requirement, but SSB (for the email link) is more of a luxury. Water maker is somewhere between the two (I once contracted amoebic dysentery and I don’t think I could live through that a second time.)

Another good topic to discuss might be Maintenance, Repairs and Spares While Cruising. I am trying to figure out what would be appropriate or just plain handy to bring along. I am anticipating on doing couple of oil changes along the way. Do cruisers bring along their own vacuum pumps or what?


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

GeorgeB said:


> Mike, thanks for leading such a thoughtful discussion. ......
> 
> ....... We will be doing Mexico. I am planning on being at sea for no more than a week at any one time and plan on being away from replenishments for up to two weeks at a time. So we view refrigeration as a requirement, but SSB (for the email link) is more of a luxury. *Water maker is somewhere between the two *(I once contracted amoebic dysentery and I don't think I could live through that a second time.)
> 
> Another good topic to discuss might be Maintenance, Repairs and Spares While Cruising. I am trying to figure out what would be appropriate or just plain handy to bring along. I am anticipating on doing couple of oil changes along the way. *Do cruisers bring along their own vacuum pumps or what?*


FWIW George, some friends of ours sailed their Passport 40 from the PNW to Mexico and spent three seasons there before shipping the boat back home. In retrospect I think it's fair to say that they would put the watermaker at 'good idea #1' on the list. YMMV, of course, but I think that a)having plenty of water and b) knowing where it came from created that higher 'comfort' level and peace of mind - esp with your prior experience.

Good question about the oil sucker.. We put a lot of hours on our motor last summer and I'd have likely done an oil change along the way if I had brought it with us.. but where to put it??? 

I do carry enough tools to do most major repairs including engine work, and it's saved our bacon more than once.


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

MikeOReilly said:


> Yes, but it appears that this "minimum level" seems to be going up all the time. You're a long long-time cruiser. What have you seen?


Over time, I see more and more systems, less redundancy, and failure modes that make soldiering on more difficult.

Examples - induction cooking that requires a generator, watermakers to make up for inadequate tankage, electric or hydraulic winches that aren't sized for manual use, windlasses without manual back-up, and drive-by-wire.

The big issues I see most often are dependence on 117 or 240 VAC power and dependence on off-board resources for weather. Inadequate tankage, especially for water, (a judgment call) is probably third.

Somewhere in the mix is more and more motoring and motor-sailing instead of provisioning for sailing regardless of conditions.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Thank everyone for another round of great thoughts. joyinPNW, your progression sounds similar to ours. We now sit in a 37' boat that is, to my view, incredibly comfortable, and more importantly, functional and safe. Yet some of our cruising friends still think we're "roughing it" with our simple setup (windlass, winches, windvane, no hot water/shower, our rowing dingy ... heck, even our coffee grinder is manual), and our limited refrigeration. I know, and love, camping. Life on _Pachina Mia_ is not camping!

Good point GeorgeB regarding demographics. There's no doubt that as we get older -- as I get older -- it becomes harder to do the things I was able to do so casually as a younger me. Unless you're out there to prove something, or break a record, the point is to enjoy one's self. Everyone is different. I just think I'm happier not having to fix things all the time. This is why I like simple equipment and systems -- stuff I can understand. Since my skills are a lot lower than some (most?), I need pretty simple systems .


----------



## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> Good point GeorgeB regarding demographics. There's no doubt that as we get older -- as I get older -- it becomes harder to do the things I was able to do so casually as a younger me. Unless you're out there to prove something, or break a record, the point is to enjoy one's self. Everyone is different. I just think I'm happier not having to fix things all the time. This is why I like simple equipment and systems -- stuff I can understand. Since my skills are a lot lower than some (most?), I need pretty simple systems .


Simple systems improve my time on the water too. The simplicity of things like oars and ice are just another way I like to disconnect from the complexity of shore life.

We read more and have no internet, tv, radio(except vhf) on the boat. It's a simple boat to turn ON for a few days or weeks, and just as simple to turn OFF.

Perfect for sailing and coastal cruising but it would not be a good boat to live on. I'd choose a whole different boat for that.


----------



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

MikeOReilly said:


> I need pretty simple systems .


I read this a lot. But I don't feel your "simple systems" are really all that more simple as far as maintenance goes that my "complex systems".

I can fix my electric windlass, it is just a motor more than a manual (and if it fails I can still get my anchor up).
I can fix/replace a electric water pump just easily as a manual one.
I don't have electric winches, but if I did I could not use it or take the motor off.
I figure my diesel is the same as yours far as what I can do.
If you have a frig, it doesn't matter the size.
A hose is a hose on a head whether it is electric or manual.

There are things I can not fix,but I bet most boats have those. These are pretty much every electronic item (VHF, Radio, GPS, gages) and beyond wiring problems one is just screwed and has to go into backup mode.

So a simple boat has nothing really to do with camping, just costs. In the past 5 years out of the complex things on my 2 boats I have had to replace: a water pump ($150), a windlass motor ($550), the autopliot computer and control head ($1250). These weren't as much during that time as "regular" use maintenance on the boat for things like bopttom paint, bad electrical connections, sails, dinghy and outboard repairs, replacing running rigging etc etc.


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

As a techie, it's an enjoyment during the winter for me to tinker a bit and put things like a inverter on board. In the summer, it's all about enjoying places, activities, and good company. So my winter hobby is to improve our summer cruising/anchoring.

As an engineer, I know that life in a house or anywhere is actually camping, with the technical marvels that make things easier for a cost. It's all on the scale of applied innovation. (And redundency at home seems to be getting fragile, with an overloaded power grid and long haul delivery of natural gas.) At home I hear the furnace kick on. On the boat I hear the water pump. Same same. It's all systems.

IMHO, the only differences are:

1) A voting/taxing community. In a community, people have mainstream expectations, so if the power grid fails, the government steps in to fix it. Someone gets taxed to get it done, or the current government gets replaced by a government that will. Same for the systems of natural gas, schools, roads, police, etc. 

Mainstream expectations mean that some systems become not-just-yours-to-fix, which is nice. (But you still ought to check that those who are appointed to maintain it are doing a good job. It's why we read the paper and join the PTA.)

2) Economies of scale a.k.a neighbors. When you aren't remote, you get to take advantage of economies of scale and the resulting specialization. That's everything from faster Internet (because there is/was enough people nearby to return the investment on the bandwidth), to more efficient power plants. (See, you do run a generator, it's just located out of earshot somewhere.) The specialized systems known as Walmart, Apple Stores, and West Marine all exist in a particular location because the number of people nearby can support them. (Walmart succeeds even further because it redefined "nearby" through advanced purchasing, transportation and distribution systems.) Even in remote places, the little grocery store on the corner is there because it isn't just you that buys things there.

Your neighbors make efficient systems and more specialized systems possible -- which makes life feel less like camping. (True also for the social system known as put-luck gatherings, when cruisers meet-up.)

3) Land (acreage) at a fixed Lat/Lon. Land lets you spread out and clutter a bit, so there's not as much effort to store things and get things done. It lets you have things that can last centuries, like a well built house -- if your country doesn't have a war on home soil, and if your community doesn't go all "Detriot" on you. Land also let's you have a wider variety of tools/possessions so you can live, enjoy, and build more. (Possessions are all really tools. Even a picture on the wall is a tool to help you remember or enjoy something.)

A bit of land -- in a decent neighborhood -- makes it easier to have more tools and maintain your systems. The neighborhood part is important again.

At some point you may step away from nearby technical, neighborhood, and community systems. The camping-or-"not camping" question isn't about the systems you have or the systems you're used to. It's about stepping away from a neighborhood that you are used to, such that maintaining those systems falls more to your own efforts, as you lose the automatic economies of both scale and a fixed Lat/Lon.

Camping is when you implement less of those social and technical systems, "not camping" is when you implement more. Whether you install an inverter or arrange a put-luck dinner, the result is the same. You move into the realm of "not camping".

Have some tools and be social.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## blowinstink (Sep 3, 2007)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> To me it means tourism.
> 
> There are many people cruising that dont have the money to visit the Pyramids when in Egypt, or the Colosseum when sailing Italy.
> 
> ...


I see this totally differently -- but maybe it is just how you define the question. I don't think the "camping" issue has anything to do with whether you can be a tourist or not. Except, perhaps, in that if you buy too much boat your cruising kitty may not support your tourist desires.

I completely agree with Mark that (for me) it would be silly to get to Rome and not be able to sit on the hook or a mooring or at worst a cheap marina on a train route into town for a few weeks if not a few months. There are cheap places I'd love to go, but I don't want to feel marginalized by my budget. I don't need a fancy boat to do that though -- in fact, the fancy boat might be the obstacle.

For me this means that while I can afford to buy a nice modern boat with lots of bells and whistles (including some conveniences I'd really love to have . . . good dinghy stowage, freezer, extra seaberths . . . and on and on) if I did, I'd be spending a few years worth of premium cruising budget (that additional 2K or so a month which would make the difference between enjoying some of the more expensive locations or having to avoid them) and probably wind up unable to do the sort of cruising I'd like. I don't see tourism as about the boat. So long as I can get there in one piece, take a shower make a meal and have some clean clothes, the boat is sufficient.

What is "sufficient" to make it *enjoyable* seems to me to be where the "what is camping" question lies. Like earlier posters, I am definitely aware that what was plenty comfortable for a week before now seems a little lacking. I am getting tired of carrying bags of ice and would love refrigeration (which means addressing the whole DC power side) a better stove would be nice and some better storage . . .. But ultimately, if I had to chose between going with what I have or not going -- based solely on my boat as it is -- there is no question I'd go and happily. I've got it good.

To me the real test of whether or not you are "camping" is whether or not your boat will accommodate the cruising companion of choice. If she views the accommodations aboard as something less than what she needs for it to be a home for the duration of your cruising plans, then it is camping. In other words, I have my minimum standards and they are things like bunk I can sleep in, place to make a nice meal, dry, standing headroom, way to get cleaned up AND a boat comfortable enough to keep my woman happy.

Hope that doesn't come across as sexist, but there is a very real divide out there between the single guys cruising and the couples.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> Over time, I see more and more systems, less redundancy, and failure modes that make soldiering on more difficult.
> 
> Examples - induction cooking that requires a generator, watermakers to make up for inadequate tankage, electric or hydraulic winches that aren't sized for manual use, windlasses without manual back-up, and drive-by-wire.
> 
> ...


We are not yet full-timers, but even in my decade+ of seasonal use I've seen the same trends. More systems, more electrical "doo-dads", and a commensurate increase in the capacity and complexity of electrical systems.

I find your watermaker comments interesting. There is such a diversity of opinion on the necessity of these items that it is one of the many questions that I've decided to leave until we get out there.

System redundancy is vital for all essential systems. This is why I get nervous whenever I take my mast down and have to motor to the travel lift -- I'm down to just one engine! I like the Pardey notion of making your boat "unstoppable." For me that means a combination of redundancy, and making sure no single system will be a complete show-stopper if it dies. You hear (mostly on forums like this) about people stuck in some out of the way place waiting for parts for their fridge b/c they can't travel without one. That seems crazy to me.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> I read this a lot. But I don't feel your "simple systems" are really all that more simple as far as maintenance goes that my "complex systems".


That's why I always say "simple" is a relative thing. Simple to me is not the same for you. Those with greater skill and knowledge and money than I can sustain systems I could not. My point with this is that there is no single right answer for everyone. It depends on each individual.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Bene505 said:


> Camping is when you implement less of those social and technical systems, "not camping" is when you implement more. Whether you install an inverter or arrange a put-luck dinner, the result is the same. You move into the realm of "not camping".


A broad sociological perspective on the question Brad. So in your view, "camping" is measured on a gradated scale, not as some sort of binary switch. By this view we're all camping, all the time. Just that some of us camp more, some less.

Interesting ... Thanks .


----------



## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Don0190 said:


> I don't feel your "simple systems" are really all that more simple as far as maintenance goes that my "complex systems".


Any system that has been made automatic/electric versus manual is going to take more time and money to fix when it fails, and most will have a higher rate of failure because there are more parts to fail.

Money is one thing, but to me the more important thing is time. I put my boat in the water on May 15 the day the marina opens, and haul on October 15 when it closes. In between I do not want to do anything but sail and enjoy life, maybe clean the decks and wipe down the counters now and again.

When we decide to go out on the boat for a weekend, we throw some clothes in a bag, pick up some food/beer/ice at the market, and are sailing away from the mooring within 10 minutes of parking the car.

I enjoy using ice in the icebox, lifting the anchor by hand, rowing the dinghy... especially since those things will never fail me all season long.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

KISS and redundant should be more sailors MOTTO...these days

If it were me designing a new boat...for example electrical systems would be thus so:

batteries

independant and independantly fused wires to everything...with backups that can be switched efficiently and easily to most used items...like quick release connectors used in RC stuff

say running lights, nav, cabin lights....vhf, comms, etc...

yes it would be a massive amount of cables in the beginning but just seeing what some po´s do to save a bit of wire with all sorts of connnections, splices, bad soldering, panels all over the places and buss bars in all sorts of weird places just gives me the creeps

iceboxes are a great thing...too

if it where me again to keep it simple Id buy those portable camping 12 volts coolers that they sell for cheap

on the boat I crossed tha pacific and indian ocean on they used this under the nav station seat...it failed after 5 years...so we had no frozen meat or whatever but that didnt worsen our quality of "camping"

in the end the owner of said boat didnt even buy a new cooler like that cause he saw no need for it(for him)

he had plenty of power, massive vetus diesel, 3 panels, wind power and genny...

goes to show its what people perceive that is different not whats needed or not to go sailing or camping in this instance! jajajaja

cheers


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

MikeOReilly said:


> A broad sociological perspective on the question Brad. So in your view, "camping" is measured on a gradated scale, not as some sort of binary switch. By this view we're all camping, all the time. Just that some of us camp more, some less.
> 
> Interesting ... Thanks .


It's a scale from camping to long term elegance.

(This includes all the robustness that "long term" implies. If you lived in Kuwait a week before Saddam rolled through, you may have been living in elegance but not long term elegance. Same for living in a city in the U.S. in 1928. It's why we read the paper and vote. Long term elegance isn't easy/cheap.)

Regards,
Brad


----------



## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

If the boat is your home you are not camping. If it isn't, you are.

Down


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

MikeOReilly said:


> I find your watermaker comments interesting. There is such a diversity of opinion on the necessity of these items that it is one of the many questions that I've decided to leave until we get out there.


I don't have a problem with watermakers per se. I do take issue with removing a water tank in order to make room for a watermaker.

I do think there is way too much opinion on matters that can be analyzed based on fact. To stay with watermakers as an example I spent a lot of time doing research on 12VDC watermakers (I run a 12V boat - the only things that require 117VAC are aircon, a stick blender, and TV). I collected a lot of data and developed some maintenance and repair scenarios. There are still a few holes in my model but I found that there is a sweet spot between 300 and 400 gpd where power efficiency (Ah/gal) peaks. I found this fascinating.

I tried to monetize this ($/Ah/gal) but I'm not happy with that part of the model. My _opinion_ (there is that word again is that the Spectra Cape Horn makes a lot of sense among the competition BUT I still can't convince myself that a watermaker makes sense for our cruising style. Water is just too easy to get and 120 gallons of tankage has been plenty for us.



caberg said:


> Any system that has been made automatic/electric versus manual is going to take more time and money to fix when it fails, and most will have a higher rate of failure because there are more parts to fail.


Often but not always true. Electric toilets are a good example. Electric are more reliable and easier to fix than manual.



caberg said:


> I enjoy using ice in the icebox, lifting the anchor by hand, rowing the dinghy... especially since those things will never fail me all season long.


Your back is in better shape than mine. *grin*



christian.hess said:


> if it where me again to keep it simple Id buy those portable camping 12 volts coolers that they sell for cheap


Buy more batteries and plan for more ways to keep them charged. Those little coolers are not very energy efficient. Consider Ah/cu ft for a set temperature.

That isn't to say they don't have their place. For our cruising we find that freezer space is at a greater premium than refrigeration space. I've been noodling over building a second freezer under the aft berth or just strapping an Engel in there. When we eat down the main freezer we can empty out the second freezer and shut it down. Still thinking about it. So far we've been able to enjoy our cruises with what we have. *grin*


----------



## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

SVAuspicious said:


> caberg said:
> 
> 
> > Any system that has been made automatic/electric versus manual is going to take more time and money to fix when it fails, and most will have a higher rate of failure because there are more parts to fail.
> ...


Well, I would have to differ on that one since (as stated in some other similar threads) we use wag bags lined in the marine toilet and have never used the holding tank on our boat. Unless the toilet itself falls off its mount, we are good to go on that front. (Plus, no pump outs!)


----------



## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

We're all pretty much self-indulgent softies these days. 

The way it used to be:

"The 'Newport', like the rest of the key planters' vessels, had a small trunk cabin aft, in which possibly four persons could manage to sleep, and a large hold, with hatches amidships, in which mattresses could be placed with fair comfort. There were no conveniences of any sort; food was prepared in a small galley on deck, and eaten off the cabin-top. All this is mentioned to show the discomforts which early travelers to the [Biscayne] Bay made light of -- people of as much refinement as those who now come in drawing-room cars, and feel abused if not provided with every luxury."

--- Ralph Munroe, "The Commodore's Story".


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> I tried to monetize this ($/Ah/gal) but I'm not happy with that part of the model. My _opinion_ (there is that word again is that the Spectra Cape Horn makes a lot of sense among the competition BUT I still can't convince myself that a watermaker makes sense for our cruising style. Water is just too easy to get and 120 gallons of tankage has been plenty for us.


Thanks Auspicious, I'll keep that recommendation in mind. I carry 200 gallons, which for two of us, will last ... well, I don't actually know how long it will last b/c we've never run out. Our longest trip was about 8 weeks, and that included flushing a head with fresh water. We now have a composter. As I say, I'm going to get out there and give it some time before deciding.

The issue I have with a watermaker is similar to my hesitation over my fridge/freezer or even my engine. It's not so much the expense of the item, it's how much support and effort it will require to keep it operating in the future. The stories of people spending all their time in paradise maintaining and fixing their gadgets rings loudly in my thoughts. That said, I'm not seeking an ascetic experience. I'm in search of the right balance (for me).


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

SVAuspicious said:


> I don't have a problem with watermakers per se. I do take issue with removing a water tank in order to make room for a watermaker.
> 
> I do think there is way too much opinion on matters that can be analyzed based on fact. To stay with watermakers as an example I spent a lot of time doing research on 12VDC watermakers (I run a 12V boat - the only things that require 117VAC are aircon, a stick blender, and TV). I collected a lot of data and developed some maintenance and repair scenarios. There are still a few holes in my model but I found that there is a sweet spot between 300 and 400 gpd where power efficiency (Ah/gal) peaks. I found this fascinating.
> 
> ...


Well Dave, my friend, I agree with almost everything you have said. Let's see:

I have done the electric head and the manuals. I have rebuilt and owned PhII's and Jabscos and they are a pain. I installed around 2008 I think Jabsco Quiet Flush electric heads and have not rebuilt them or had a single issue with them once!! ELectric heads have really made life aboard much more comfortable.

I do not agree that electrics take up more water than manuals. You can dry bowl them too - just like manuals. You can choose how much water to flush them with. In fact, once that macerator gets ahold of it (ours are macerating electrics with separate pumps for water), you might even make the case they could use less water than a manual. The only negative I have found with electric heads is that they do not tolerate matchbox cars very well... at all.

Watermakers... well, I am in the market. However, I could make do without it. Our water use, which is pretty typical of most cruisers, runs a little over 2g pp/day. We can lower or raise that depending on comfort and heat (and who does the dishes). We carry 130g and we can stretch that (and have stretched it) beyond two weeks. The issue with watermakers for us is that we don't often spend time in 'desolate' places. We love anchoring out in remote areas, but not for more than a week or two. So when you go into the more common cruising areas, say Boot Key Harbor as a good instance, would you really make water here? I sure wouldn't. Plus, you can get water easily at the marina and often when you get fuel. So for US cruising, I really wonder if a watermaker is going to be used much at all. THe only reason we are eyeing a watermaker now is the more distant ports we have in mind. I have decided I will try and build my watermaker from scratch. I have a very large inverter and a diesel generator. To me, I would rather run something for an hour or two that really makes a lot of water then shut it off. I have to periodically run my generator anyways to heat water, so might as well.

I also find that freezer space is at a premium and have considered adding an Engle. Our biggest failure as cruisers has been winging our kids off of regular milk. They hate all powedered milks or canned milks. This has been a real challenge. We also generate a fair amount of leftovers which eat into our freezer space, and we LOVE salads (which are a rare delight for cruisers) and many of the salad fixings last longer when kept cool, but not cold, so we built a vegetable compartment.

My opinions.

Brian


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

MikeOReilly said:


> Picking up on the "not wanting to camp" idea that came out of the _Voyaging on $500 per month_ thread, I'm curious what people actually mean when they say then want to avoid this dreaded state.
> 
> What are your key criteria for a pleasurable life afloat? I'm curious what people think, b/c personally I love camping. I also know that life on our boat is nothing like camping. Living on a boat that doesn't leak (much), with a galley, comfortable berths, tons of storage, lights, an indoor head, plumbing, etc. ... all of this is nothing like camping.
> 
> So, is it basic physical comfort? Is it being able to play ashore; purchasing entertainment, eating at restaurants, buy stuff beyond basic needs? Is it expensive food (you often hear people talk about not wanting to live on beans and rice)? Or is it more basic like being able to pay all the entrance fees that (apparently) are on the rise everywhere. Perhaps it is having lots of leisure time? Or maybe it is ease of tasks/jobs...


What is cruising? My cruising versus the cruising many on here talk about can be two very different things. I wouldn't mind crapping in a bucket and throwing ice in a cooler for a weekend. Heck, I might even do it for a few weeks. But years on end? No way. Our boat is our home, our only home. I enjoy a comfortable home, but don't mind sleeping on the sofa when we go visit family.

THat is the problem when trying to keep from 'camping' and what everyone feels comfortable with. There really are not a lot cruisers that have boats loaded with creature comforts to replicate a home and use them consistently. You cant really make it work for a long period of time. The water usage, diesel usage, gas usage, power consumption, etc are too high. You will have to conserve water (even with a watermaker) because it uses diesel and that is limited. You cannot run your air conditioning all day because its not allowed in many anchorages, and if it were, where would you get the fuel? TV is great... but guess what, there is no television channels in Marathon and many other places we have been so you would have to get a satellite (R2D2) and here again, power consumption. It is not to say we cruisers don't enjoy a variable amount of these things, but even if we have them aboard, they tend to be a bit of a luxury away from the dock. Don't even get me started on propane!!!!

Brian


----------



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

caberg said:


> When we decide to go out on the boat for a weekend, we throw some clothes in a bag, pick up some food/beer/ice at the market, and are sailing away from the mooring within 10 minutes of parking the car.
> 
> I enjoy using ice in the icebox, lifting the anchor by hand, rowing the dinghy... especially since those things will never fail me all season long.


When I want to go sailing I go sailing. You know what I do when I want to go sailing and one one of those "complex" things on my boat breaks? I do things in the old fashioned way just like you do everyday and then; go sailing!

"Complex" systems breaking doesn't mean the boat is dead in the water! The only thing that has stopped me from sailing when I wanted to were the sails (not really because I've sailed on just the main when the jib was in the shop, and on just the jib when the main was in the shop). In thinking back the only thing that has ever stopped me sailing when I wanted to has been weather!


----------



## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I have written in at least one of my posts how last year I felt a bit like I was camping at times. If I had to pick one thing that to me separates camping from cruising it's having a climate controlled cabin. 

One of my next posts on here is going to be heating systems. 

I would say other things that make it more camping are:

Real galley
Electronics
Dinghy motor
Real bedding over a sleeping bag
On board flushing head and shower
Refrigeration
Assorted little comforts like sun shades 


However reading this has made me more fearful about ever owing a large and complex boat. Someone wrote how their dad were spent fixing stuff that breaks and while I know you can't avoid that completely. I probably only had to spend an average of 15 minutes a day on boat maintenance. Maybe I got lucky and I did have too small of a boat.

I'm now scared of inboards. Too many things can go wrong


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

northoceanbeach said:


> I'm now scared of inboards. Too many things can go wrong


Quite the opposite, in my opinion...

There are very few things mechanical more reliable than a properly maintained and used naturally-aspirated diesel engine...


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Our biggest failure as cruisers has been winging our kids off of regular milk. They hate all powedered milks or canned milks. This has been a real challenge.


Have you tried UHT milk? We use it extensively aboard and I can't taste the difference. I even make yogurt with it.

Still waiting to see you up here. Maybe when things warm up?


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> Quite the opposite, in my opinion...
> 
> There are very few things mechanical more reliable than a properly maintained and used naturally-aspirated diesel engine...


Totally agree with you too. Dang, first Dave now you. My rep is deteriorating fast. I may have to start a thread on enclosures so we can get back to bickering.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

SVAuspicious said:


> Have you tried UHT milk? We use it extensively aboard and I can't taste the difference. I even make yogurt with it.
> 
> Still waiting to see you up here. Maybe when things warm up?


Uht? Which one is that? Sorry. I am not sure there is one they have not tried.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Maybe none of you have a cruise which is exciting enough to make sure its so imperative you have to go no matter what.

If you are seeing one of the Seven Wonders of the World does it really matter if you have air conditioning?
But if you can't see it because you are too lazy to install a head and the wife bucks at ****ting in a bucket?

No one here is talking about cruising successful cruising, you are all just talking about running away from society as you know it. To cruise you must go somewhere, not stay at home and cook food on a substandard cooker that happens to be on a boat.

Mark


----------



## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Quite the opposite, in my opinion...
> 
> There are very few things mechanical more reliable than a properly maintained and used naturally-aspirated diesel engine...


I agree in diesel there is just one word to remember and that is CLEAN. Clean oil clean fuel and clean air do that and you will have a long lasting trouble free engine I would also suggest some lubricating additive the new ultra low sulpher stuff hasn't got the lubricity it used to a friend of mine suggested 2 cycle oil just like you use with gas in older outboards he said a qt for every 25 gallons and it did wonders in my trucks BTW he owns skaget injection services he makes his living repairing injection systems on semis


----------



## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I think UHT is the boxed milk, I keep some on board so I can always have my oatmeal, it's available in most grocery stores around here now. They have all varieties including chocolate.
Horizon Organic 1 % Low Fat Milk, 8-Ounce Aseptic Cartons (Pack of 18): Amazon.com: Grocery & Gourmet [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YBrr%[email protected]@[email protected]@51YBrr%2B0tvL


----------



## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> What is cruising? My cruising versus the cruising many on here talk about can be two very different things. I wouldn't mind crapping in a bucket and throwing ice in a cooler for a weekend. Heck, I might even do it for a few weeks. But years on end? No way. Our boat is our home, our only home. I enjoy a comfortable home, but don't mind sleeping on the sofa when we go visit family.
> 
> THat is the problem when trying to keep from 'camping' and what everyone feels comfortable with. There really are not a lot cruisers that have boats loaded with creature comforts to replicate a home and use them consistently. You cant really make it work for a long period of time. The water usage, diesel usage, gas usage, power consumption, etc are too high. You will have to conserve water (even with a watermaker) because it uses diesel and that is limited. You cannot run your air conditioning all day because its not allowed in many anchorages, and if it were, where would you get the fuel? TV is great... but guess what, there is no television channels in Marathon and many other places we have been so you would have to get a satellite (R2D2) and here again, power consumption. It is not to say we cruisers don't enjoy a variable amount of these things, but even if we have them aboard, they tend to be a bit of a luxury away from the dock. Don't even get me started on propane!!!!
> 
> Brian


Good points Brian. There is a huge difference between living/cruising on a boat and going sailing. For most of the cruisers I see we have power boats with auxiliary sails. Very very few sail for fun.

Cruising area also makes a big difference. While we were cruising in the US shopping for anything is easy. Water is available everywhere and usually free. Most of the time we ran our motor everyday so we had plenty of power and hot water.

Here in the Bahamas you have to buy water although it's pretty cheap, around $0.25/gal in Abaco but it's not always available. Food is way more expensive for most things. Milk for example is over $8. We drink a lot of milk and have gotten quite used to powdered milk. The trick is to keep it really cold even freeze the glasses if you have to.

A few years ago we bought a 45 quart Engel which we use as a freezer. We buy all our meat for the winter at Costco before we leave the US. We do buy local produce for salads and potatoes. All and all we eat very well. No freeze dried meals or K rations.

We have a watermaker, a Katadyne 80. It makes wonderful water even in Marsh Harbour. If I had to do it again I would buy a larger unit. The Katadyne is one of the simplest units consisting really only of a pump and membrane. Also if I was building one I would seriously consider using a 120 volt pump. I run my generator anyway whenever I make water. Others make water while underway and run their motor so for them a 12 volt system works well. When we were in the Eleuthras and Exumas water is as easy to obtain and would require numerous dingy trips to get. Our watermaker was really nice to have. In Exuma Park water is not available and we would have run out without the watermaker.

People often wonder how we can live in such a small area. I always tell them that the living area may be small but I have a huge swimming pool.


----------



## stagman (Dec 3, 2013)

I have never been aboard a boat longer than a week. I have, however, camped- meaning backpacked- through every climate these United States and some of Europe has to offer and at every time of year. Camping is a 1 man tent at 13,000 feet (well above the treeline) in the Colorado Rockies in February during a blizzard. Cold is 18 degrees below 0 Fahrenheit in your tent without windchill. 

I do not mind eating camp food- and by that I mean freeze dried meals and canned food plus whatever we could forage for or kill. To me, it just wasn't an issue. Fry it or grill it, throw some tabasco sauce on it, and almost anything is edible. 

Whatever boat I end up buying will have cockpit seats long enough and wide enough for a small air pad, me, and a blanket. I recognize weather gets ****ty, but I feel more at home sleeping under the stars than I do in a bed. Yes you need a berth below for bad weather, but I'd rather sleep on deck anyday.

Toilets- as long as you don't have to worry about mosquitos the size of hummingbirds flying up your ass, you're good. No offense Mike, but I once went canoeing in Sasketchwan and went to do my doody during twilight- I had mosquito bites in unmentionable places i didnt know I had. I would be perfectly happy crapping in a bug free latrine the rest of my life, given the odor didn't permeate the boat/ was confined to the latrine. 

My only weakness is sanitation. After a few days in the back country, the number one thing I always wanted was a hot shower. I have done without, but I wasn't happy. 

What I am saying is, give me a boat (Perhaps an old Cal 27, like the katie and jessie blog) that is sound and has the space for me to hang a solar shower, use a propane stove, space to sleep, and a way to poop which doesn't involve insects and I will be perfectly happy. Add a large cooler with Ice and I will feel like I am in the lap of luxury. Things I could do without- watermakers or even a water system. I am sure someone has gotten by with nothing more than jerrycans and bottled water. Electricity other than to meet minimum requirements (Starting the diesel, anchor lights, etc.) I would say go without electricity all together but I'm pretty sure the coast guard would frown on no anchor lights. Propane/oil lamps work just fine for me. I don't need heat. I don't need AC. I have been much hotter and colder than I can ever imagine being again (Think military exercises in the Arizona desert in August in NBC gear). To me, just having a solid hull and a solar shower would be NOT camping. 

That said, I wouldn't mind paying a little $ for some comfort. Hence why I am presently in love with Pearson 28-2s. If you offered me the choice between the 28-2 and an open ended stay in any room at any hotel anywhere in the world, I would take the boat.


----------



## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Quite the opposite, in my opinion...
> 
> There are very few things mechanical more reliable than a properly maintained and used naturally-aspirated diesel engine...


Then why do I see so many boats for sale that have been re powered or have a broken engine?

Plus not all inboards are diesel.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

stagman said:


> Cold is 18 degrees below 0 Fahrenheit in your tent without windchill.
> 
> I do not mind eating camp food- and by that I mean freeze dried meals.


It all is at that temp


----------



## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

northoceanbeach said:


> Then why do I see so many boats for sale that have been re powered or have a broken engine?
> 
> Plus not all inboards are diesel.


because not everyone maintains their diesel. Look at all the cars in the junk yards with perfect bodies and interiors but with completely stuffed engines


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

northoceanbeach said:


> Then why do I see so many boats for sale that have been re powered or have a broken engine?
> 
> Plus not all inboards are diesel.


As Mad Machine said, mostly neglect. Even gasoline engines can last forever if cared for. Many of the Atomic 4 engines discussed in this forum are many years old and still seemingly running fine.

Also, outboards have a definite boat-size limitation and in rough water at sea will be virtually useless, yes, even long-shaft versions. The prop will spend more time threshing shallow water or fresh air.


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

It seems that water makers are high on a number of agendas. The fact is that they are very simple devices made complicated by their manufacturers because they want to be "fully automatic".

For the cruiser who simply wants to make fresh water when needed, a set of manual controls to replace the electronics and hand valves not solenoid valves and an engine driven pump make the system so robust that failure is almost eliminated.

I do agree that removing tankage to make space for a watermaker is not the most intelligent choice.

I don't agree that water is available everywhere although coastal sailing means it probably is. We arrived in the Marquesas and the water there for "foreigners" is undrinkable unless you like hospital food and the very real risk of contracting elephantitus. Many of the vessels there had come from the US, Galapagos or Panama and had very little water left in their tanks. We saw folks buying crates of Evian at the store. If we wanted to we could have made and sold fresh water. We didn't.


----------



## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

That's why they scare me. Not because a Diesel engine isn't awesome, but you don't KNOW how it's been taken care of unless you are buying a new boat.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

northoceanbeach said:


> That's why they scare me. Not because a Diesel engine isn't awesome, but you don't KNOW how it's been taken care of unless you are buying a new boat.


Yes, but no one else knows either. No matter how much they pntificate on forums or at the bar, no one knows. Get a mechanic to have a look befor elyu buy but he doesnt know either. Best way is just to make sure its cold, and then turn the bugger on. If it satrts immedieatly it good. If it doesnt its stuffed. If its already warm then go back on another day. 

In general diesel engines are so reliable you need to hit them with a sledge hammer and that wont even stop them.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

stagman said:


> Toilets- as long as you don't have to worry about mosquitos the size of hummingbirds flying up your ass, you're good. No offense Mike, but I once went canoeing in Sasketchwan and went to do my doody during twilight- I had mosquito bites in unmentionable places i didnt know I had. I would be perfectly happy crapping in a bug free latrine the rest of my life, given the odor didn't permeate the boat/ was confined to the latrine.


Oh, the stories I could tell you about crapping in the woods. Skeeders are annoying, but blackflies will kill ya! Here in Northern Ontario the bugs are so insidious we have songs and films dedicated to the joy they bring us: Blackfly by Christopher Hinton - NFB



stagman said:


> My only weakness is sanitation. After a few days in the back country, the number one thing I always wanted was a hot shower. I have done without, but I wasn't happy.


The shower thing is often brought up as a key demarcation point for "camping." I have no problem showering in the cockpit with our simple solar shower (a modified pesticide sprayer). But does no one sponge bath any more? What's wrong with that?


----------



## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

northoceanbeach said:


> That's why they scare me. Not because a Diesel engine isn't awesome, but you don't KNOW how it's been taken care of unless you are buying a new boat.


 When he was doing mechanic work, my dad used to get the engine oil analyzed to see what was going on inside.

What Does Your Engine Oil Tell You? - Edmunds.com

HowStuffWorks "How to Do an Engine Oil Analysis"


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

stagman said:


> I have been much hotter and colder than I can ever imagine being again (Think military exercises in the Arizona desert in August in NBC gear). To me, just having a solid hull and a solar shower would be NOT camping.


I just did a training exercise during the past two weeks in Temps between 0F and 30F degrees doing ranges and FTX training. I've also done missions overseas in Temps at 115-120F.

Anything on a boat would be welcome. My boat is luxury in comparison to some of the things I've done during my military career. I wouldn't ever look at time on my boat as camping.


----------



## stagman (Dec 3, 2013)

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> I just did a training exercise during the past two weeks in Temps between 0F and 30F degrees doing ranges and FTX training. I've also done missions overseas in Temps at 115-120F.
> 
> Anything on a boat would be welcome. My boat is luxury in comparison to some of the things I've done during my military career. I wouldn't ever look at time on my boat as camping.


Exactly the point I was trying to get across. A dry place to sleep is a luxury many don't have


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Uht? Which one is that? Sorry. I am not sure there is one they have not tried.


UHT milk goes through an ultra high temperature pasteurization process. UHT heats milk to a high temperature (275F) for a short time (2 sec) to kill all spores and bacteria. The result is a shelf stable product. You do have to refrigerate it once you open the package.

Parmalat is the largest producer of UHT milk in the US. It's often sold in the baby food aisle. We buy it in packs of sippy boxes which are 1 cup and perfect for infrequent milk users. Incidentally Mini Moos coffee creamer are UHT.

Some people apparently can taste the difference and complain that UHT milk tastes "cooked" but Janet and I don't notice any difference.



Omatako said:


> It seems that water makers are high on a number of agendas. The fact is that they are very simple devices made complicated by their manufacturers because they want to be "fully automatic".
> 
> For the cruiser who simply wants to make fresh water when needed, a set of manual controls to replace the electronics and hand valves not solenoid valves and an engine driven pump make the system so robust that failure is almost eliminated.


The complex automatic control systems are the most common point of failure in modern watermakers. One of the reasons I like the Spectra Cape Horn is that it is a more basic, manually operated unit (which isn't hard to use) with built-in redundancy. I have no relationship with Spectra.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

+1000 on UHT milk. Always have a stash of the sippy boxes, but one or two quart size as well. You can get it in whole, 2% and skim. It may get expensive feeding it to kids as drinking milk, however. It's substantially more expensive than standard milk at the grocery store. We use it exclusively for cooking or the odd guest that does drink milk. If you can't find it nearby, it can easily be ordered via places like Amazon. Parmalat is the brand we've found most often. The taste is 100% normal in our opinion.


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> +1000 on UHT milk. Always have a stash of the sippy boxes, but one or two quart size as well. You can get it in whole, 2% and skim. It may get expensive feeding it to kids as drinking milk, however. It's substantially more expensive than standard milk at the grocery store. We use it exclusively for cooking or the odd guest that does drink milk. If you can't find it nearby, it can easily be ordered via places like Amazon. Parmalat is the brand we've found most often. The taste is 100% normal in our opinion.


Sometimes, Parmalat can be a bit hard to find... Another non-dairy substitute I've used that doesn't require refrigeration is RICE DREAM... It comes in a few different flavors, doesn't necessarily duplicate the 'normal' taste of milk, but everyone I've ever sailed with liked it...

RICE DREAM Shelf-Stable Non-Dairy Beverages


----------



## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

This is a great thread. Lots of useful "camping" advice. Water purification, foods that require no refrigeration, delights of a warm dry bed, insect war stories, sponge baths. I love it! We have difficulty distinguishing our "camping" from any long duration activity that takes us away from our home. I suppose a 4 star resort hotel on Capri isn't camping but there is swimming in the Med, climbing in and out of small boats, hiking along cliffs, fending off cats at dinner. Cats are more fun to discourage than black flies.

We go "camping" on foot, with our canoes, with our catboat, with our outboard skiff, with our Islander. We also live aboard the Islander. Its all camping! I am writing this from "camp". Perhaps if you can't use plastic it is camping?

Down


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

almost all milks down here are uht..they are same price or cheaper than "fresh" too!
.its very UNCOMMON to find "fresh galon jugs" like up north as its an uncommon way to drink milk here...most people out in the country drink warm milk

having said that one you open UHT milk its inly mildy longer lasting tha regular milk

the point is stowability and expiration dates on UHT are almost a year...so You can always open a tetrapack whenever you want just make sure you drink it in a timely manner or if using an icebox or fridge the you can use it for 2 weeks or so...

regarding milk one benefit of powdered milk(another staple down here for most the same reasons) are that you can play around with consistencies

for example while cruising we regularly used a thicker quantity of powder to water when wating to do stuff like pasta and cream sauce....

using butter along with the thick milk gives you a creamy almost alfredo like sauce

for our stove top espresso maker we used a thinner consistency but we boiled it up to get some foam naturaly and made oiurselve mini machiatos

for chocolate milk or baking we used normal ratio...

the list goes on

for me at least I would never leave port without either of these staples especially when crossing an ocean, they are life savers, seriously


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I'm not a big milk drinker, but personally I prefer powdered to UHT. I find the taste of powdered just fine if it is cold, but it is far more versatile to use and cook with. And of course, it is far easier to store. 

... and just b/c I like powdered milk doesn't mean I'm camping .


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

CruisingDad,

Have you tried putting just little big of powdered milk in with regular milk? Then slowly increase the percentage over the course of a few months. You'll get them used to it slowly.

(Our kids drink it. We mix it slightly strong and serve it cool if not cold.)

Regards,
Brad


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Sometimes, Parmalat can be a bit hard to find... .....


Two words...... Amazon Prime. 

It's becoming comical how much ordinary stuff I just order there, rather than even put it on a shopping list and try looking. I can order something every day and all the shipping is free.

I ordered Spanish Chorizo for my paella on AP, rather than even wait to see if the grocery store had it.


----------



## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Yes, but no one else knows either. No matter how much they pntificate on forums or at the bar, no one knows. Get a mechanic to have a look befor elyu buy but he doesnt know either. Best way is just to make sure its cold, and then turn the bugger on. If it satrts immedieatly it good. If it doesnt its stuffed. If its already warm then go back on another day.
> 
> In general diesel engines are so reliable you need to hit them with a sledge hammer and that wont even stop them.


I agree a well maintained Diesel engine last a long time. I think you are misinterpreting my fear of inboards as thinking Diesel engines are poor.

There is just so much more to an inboard than the very well designed engine block. There are stuffing boxes and raw water filter and bad fuel and so many things that can go wrong. Plus I think we all agree it's only the properly maintained engines that are good.

An outboard is so much simpler. If there is a problem you can just take off the top, of take the engine off and take it to a mechanic.


----------



## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> JonEisberg said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes, Parmalat can be a bit hard to find...
> ...


Amazon is fine in the US but not such a good deal in the islands. Fortunately a lot of interesting products, including UHT milk, are very easy to find there.

In the US I've found UHT milk in Publix, Pathmark, Shoprite, Shoppers Food Warehouse, Safeway, and Giant - oh Walmart and Target also. Mostly you just have to look down the baby food aisle. You're going to be in there anyway for baby wipes, right?


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Think tolerance and definition of camping varies greatly depending on what's going on. If you're broad reaching on a flat sea in the tropics with a fresh breeze- Hell I'll sleep in a pipe berth, eat meals ready to eat and put on a harness to hang my sorry butt over the stern to poop and still be smiling. If you're hunkered down in a cold rain waiting for days for a weather window give me internet, flatscreen, a great sound system, hot/cold water, HVAC, a full pantry and bread baking in the oven with enough space everyone aboard can shut a door to generate their own private space.
P.s.- Think if you need to put milk in your coffee you didn't make good coffee but then I'm lactose intolerant so you wouldn't want to be with me if I drink a lot a milk. Give 1+ for the rice milk.


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Water maker meets rowing machine.
When I went through the army's radio officers course we learned about the World War Two vintage pedal operated high frequency radio and actually got to operate one. So, during a muse one day, I thought about a pedal operated desal plant for a small sailboat. Since, I've refined the concept to a rowing machine powered desal plant. Set it up on the fore deck, get a 45 minute workout and make, say ten gallons of water. Too bad I'm not an engineer. Otherwise you guys would have the most efficient water maker in the world.
John


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Two words...... Amazon Prime.
> 
> It's becoming comical how much ordinary stuff I just order there, rather than even put it on a shopping list and try looking. I can order something every day and all the shipping is free.
> 
> I ordered Spanish Chorizo for my paella on AP, rather than even wait to see if the grocery store had it.


as a spaniard by birth here is a fun tidbit

never ever say you put chorizo in a paella in spain or to spaniards as they will be insulted...chorizo does not go in any paella...unfortunately there is a tradition outside of spain to do so since chorizo is one of spains biggest export products, that and pimenton

in any case hope the paella tasted well

we make them all the time at the restaurant and people here are adamant about HAVING chorizo in paella....jajajajaja

id be happy to share recipes...


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> as a spaniard by birth here is a fun tidbit
> 
> never ever say you put chorizo in a paella in spain or to spaniards as they will be insulted...chorizo does not go in any paella...unfortunately there is a tradition outside of spain to do so since chorizo is one of spains biggest export products, that and pimenton
> 
> ...


I have no idea what any of that meant.

Christian -- If I make it to El Salvador, I'm coming to your restaurant for some of your great food.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jajajaja just saying...chorizo does not go in paella unless you are out of spain! jajajajaja

come on down guys...boats almost done too!

cheers


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

northoceanbeach said:


> I agree a well maintained Diesel engine last a long time. I think you are misinterpreting my fear of inboards as thinking Diesel engines are poor.
> 
> There is just so much more to an inboard than the very well designed engine block. There are stuffing boxes and raw water filter and bad fuel and so many things that can go wrong. Plus I think we all agree it's only the properly maintained engines that are good.
> 
> An outboard is so much simpler. If there is a problem you can just take off the top, of take the engine off and take it to a mechanic.


If only it was as easy as "just take off the top". And if only it really was "so much simpler"
I spend much more time futzing with the simple little single cylinder outboard on my dinghy every season than i do with our diesel inboard. Most of those systems you find frightening, like the stuffing box and raw water filter are largely "set and forget" as an added bonus, when/if i do have a problem with the lump, repairing it means sitting down in the cabin out of the wind and rain and spray, and working on an engine which isn't bouncing and rolling much, and if i drop a tool, it hits the cabin sole. working on an outboard hung over the transom, trying to figure out what to fix now that you have just taken off the top? Less fun.

Further, outboards sometimes require fixing precisely because of their lack of those systems which an inboard has, like a raw water strainer. I prefer cleaning crap out of the strainer before it hits the engine rather than pulling long strings of weeds out of the intake of my overheated outboard.
Regarding complexity, while the inboard diesel has simple added systems like the raw water strainer and a prop shaft, it is also missing systems that an outboard has, like an ignition system, including one or more coils, leads, spark plugs, and of course the added joy of an articulating transom mount, which gives you the added fun of putting your boat's auxiliary propulsion OUTSIDE of, and behind, the boat.
Two seasons ago I saw three boats lose their outboards while underway, thanks to failing mount plates. I one case the plywood looked great from the aft side, nicely cetoled, but the forward side, hidden from view, was punky around the bolts, causing the motor to eventually tear the plate free under throttle. in the other the case the solid oak plate was mounted with the grain horizontal instead of vertical, and it split. The last was a dick of s skipper who didn;t double check the systems on his trailer-sailor before leaving the ramp. As all of us within earshot heard, his young teen son had installed the outboard, but had not adequately tightened it down. Dickskipper twisted the throttle and the motor hopped off. An anonymous voice called across to the drifting boat, "Hey kid, ask your dad why he let go of it!" - the kid's bowed head lifted a little at that. All cases ended with the motor dropping in the drink and boats drifting.

If your inboard falls in the drink, it indicates a more serious problem than the propulsion system, and it may be a benefit to lose way at that point.

There's advantages and disadvantages to both, but don't be scared by what you don't know.


----------



## christianOregon (Dec 18, 2013)

I am that Guy.. I tent camp 15-25 weekends a year. In the spring with snow still on the ground, in heavy winds and pouring rains, under clouds of bugs covered in spray and still dread the final hours when I have to pack it all up and head down the mountain. I tour by bicycle in remote areas of the world setting up camp in sometimes god awful places. Not everyone is into this type of what they call hardcore camping but others claim I am the most pimped out camper they know. 
Bicycle Touring is so close in many ways to Cruising. Break down in the middle of nowhere and you are forced to jury rig repairs, no water and you are in a world of hurt. Dog packs that view you as lunch. But as in cruising it all boils down to what is important to you. If coffee is your morning, then figuring out how to have that amazing cup of coffee every morning with out fuss or hassle is something you have to figure out. Rain drops the size of silver dollars never bother me as I sit huddled over a steaming cup of dark roast. Do I have the right clothes? Riding in the rain teaches you that you can not stay dry but with the right clothes you can stay warm. I feel with cruising you have to know what things really make you happy, some of us need music, some coffee, some one good meal a day, your list and my list may differ but in the end it is the ability to provide yourself with these comfort items that make up your personal list that can and will change your camping/cruising outlook.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> ....id be happy to share recipes...


Please share. Either here or PM would be great.

I've found, just this past season, that paella is a great onboard dish. Only one dish and so versatile, you can make it with nearly whatever is available. Love seafood paella on the boat. For the boat, I have a ceramic coated (rust proof) 13" pan that fits perfectly over the large galley burner. Works great! At home I have a 15" and 18" traditional steel pans and paella burner.

I did not know Spain didn't use chorizo. I don't use much, but it's the best part to get a little piece among the rest. Sort of like the prize. I usually saute it first, which draws the oil and spices into the pan, set it aside and make the sofrito in the drippings.


----------



## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

For me camping is when I have to turn on the engine, I'm no longer cruising, I'm just motoring to the next campground.


----------



## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

christian.hess said:


> id be happy to share recipes...


Please do. Open a new thread in provisioning and post some Spanish receipts for boat cooking.
Although I'm not an authority, I'll bet there is at least one region in Spain that uses chorizo in their paella. However chorizo in Spain is very different from Mexican chorizo. I once explained to a mid- westerner that paella was like hash. Everyone and every region has its definition for the perfect paella.
I'll be looking for a new thread.
John


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

well sure why not

I could do that

and there is one region that uses cured meats, chicken and other smoked prodcuts for a paella called "de campina"

thats as close to chorizo as your going to get

and yes paella to outsiders is the yellow chow mein looking crap you get taken for whereas real paella uses only pimenton and zaffron but very little

there are a million paella recipes, using different rices and methods...unfortunetly most people only like the seafood one or the "valenciana" one that is the most common

anyways when I get a chance Ill post some pics and recipes

cheers


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Please share. Either here or PM would be great.
> 
> I've found, just this past season, that paella is a great onboard dish. Only one dish and so versatile, you can make it with nearly whatever is available. Love seafood paella on the boat. For the boat, I have a ceramic coated (rust proof) 13" pan that fits perfectly over the large galley burner. Works great! At home I have a 15" and 18" traditional steel pans and paella burner.
> 
> I did not know Spain didn't use chorizo. I don't use much, but it's the best part to get a little piece among the rest. Sort of like the prize. I usually saute it first, which draws the oil and spices into the pan, set it aside and make the sofrito in the drippings.


awesome you know a lot already so thats good...

just a tip its the fat from the chorizo(and other meats) that will help keep the rice grains separate....you must always saute the rice unless you are using full blown expensive spanish rice like bomba, calasparra etc...

for most seafood paellas for example you sprinkle the rice into the boiling paella stock...

for us mere mortals however the best rice for paella is SOS parcooked rice, especially on the boat, it also stays loose and individually grained and doesnt turn to mush like if you used white rice....

anywhooo

seems there is interest so some provisioning recipes or a quick paella recipe thread is soon to come!

peace


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

OK, here's a specific question: how do you salt-water sailors manage water usage. Specifically, do you use salt water (when it is clean) for dishes and laundry? What about bathing/showers? Cooking?

I understand the need to get rid of salt with a final rinse for laundry and showering. But do you use salt for the bulk wash? 

So far, I sail the Great Lakes. Fresh water everywhere. Love it. Heck, we drink the water on Superior when our water tank runs dry. I'm used to having all the water I need, but will be heading out to the salty seas in the next year or so.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

salwater is your friend USE IT!

for rice and paella and most stews you use a mix of half seawater and half fresh...for plain old white rice or potatoes or similiar like pasta use full salwtater

for showers I use a pesticide sprayer...to rinse off, you have no idea how well it rinses your body and how little you waste

its by far the best way to freshwater rinse as a cup and bucket in the cockipt or even bathroom you waste a LOT!

I shower with a bucket all saltwater, they also make saltwater shampoos and soaps but laugh I prefer to shower with JOY dish soap...it will sud with any water!

if on a boat with no wateermaker I always carried about 6 galons of sealed containers(2 liter bottles) of water...mostly as a last ditch resort...your water tanks can get contaminated in rollovers etc...especially if your diesel leaks oil and or gas and into bilges etc...

a lot of water tanks that are built into the hulls like my islander 36 have lids...these lids if rolled over enough can and will leak if not periodically maintained

I prefer sealed monel tanks for that reason

for towels, sheets and all things boat like, like covers and stuff all you need is salwater and clips to hang them from the lifelines...the wind and slapping will thrash all the saltwater out of the fabric...if you still dont like it like this you can rinse them using the pesticide sprayer...lightly

thats what I do

without a watermaker(I never liked the taste) we used about a half galon a day per person this inluded a shower(complete) every 3 days when ocean crossing or every 2 days coastal

whenever it rained we all showered on deck all naked and happy! jajajaja and filled up tanks with covers and funnels as well as the boat...

cheers

ps. the trick for dishes is saltwater scrub and omediately dry, absolutely no need to waste fresh water for cleanig plates

again JOY is your friend here, it will also "eliminate" a bad oil spill or fuel spill if youre in a pesky marina...


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We use seawater for some cooking when it's appropriately 'clean' (some harbours are suspect, as are some small enclosed coves with little flushing) In summer we shampoo/wash by swimming when we can, and simply rinse with fresh - a 5 gal shower bag can last two of us 3-4 days that way; we carry two at all times.

Last summer we went further afield, we saved boxed wine bags and filled them in creeks, used that water for non drinking purposes to prolong our 40 gal tank. I think we went 3 weeks between actual refills.


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

MikeOReilly said:


> OK, here's a specific question: how do you salt-water sailors manage water usage. Specifically, do you use salt water (when it is clean) for dishes and laundry? What about bathing/showers? Cooking?


We use salt for flushing heads and nothing else. The resistance to the smell of salt water in the heads is only valid for those who use the boat once in a while (even every weekend). When you live on the boat and use the heads daily, the water does not smell at all. Also, the smell that does come up when flushing after a longish break is gone in moments, it certainly does not contaminate the boat.

My wife has a sensitive tummy so we don't cook in sea water as a principle because in some places it is less than clean and deciding whether it is or not is just too much trouble. We also treat all our tank water with water purification tablets if we load bulk water from shore sources.

We don't wash laundry in salt because in our experience it takes just as much fresh water to rinse out the salt as it does to wash in fresh in the first instance. If we had space on the boat we would definitely install a washing machine - fresh bedding is gold at sea. Unfortunately we don't.

We shower only in fresh for the same reason as laundry. We use a trigger handle on the shower rose so it's a case of spray, soap, spray, no "running" water. We have not measured it but we reckon less than 10 litres per shower.

So summary, just the heads get salt, everything else is fresh. We have 1000 litres of storage and a 150 l/hr watermaker.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

We carry 220 gallons for freshwater, which if its just my wife and I, will last almost 2 weeks. That's with reasonable conservation, such as short burst had washing and navy showers. Toilets operate on sea water. But nothing grossly draconian. We shower nearly every day, there may just be one day along the way that skips, and we cook with fresh water. As predominantly coastal cruisers, we're never two weeks from fresh water, so we typically top off about once per week. The luxury is just being able to pick a good fuel dock or light wind day to land and do so. The floating water dock in the middle of Edgartown Harbor is fav along the way.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Quite the range of responses, as usual. Love it. 

Christian, thanks for all the info. We already use a pesticide sprayer as a shower (mainly b/c Lake Superior is too freakin' cold most of the time). It's amazing how little water one needs for a full shower. I've heard people talk of the joys of Joy dishwashing detergent. We'll have to give that a try. And nice tip about letting the wind blow the salt out of towels and bedding ... that really works?

Faster, I like your wine bag idea. We always seem to have a few of those hanging around. I may give it a try. We used to use those 5 gallon shower bags as well. Works well, but you might give the pesticide sprayer a try. The added water pressure you can get with it saves even more water.

Omatako, what do you use as water purification tablets? I've sometimes use liquid bleach in our tanks. As for the head, no issue here; composting head for us.

Minnewaska, did you really mean to write that two of you use 220 gallons in two weeks? That's nearly 8 gallons per person per day. Did you mean litres? We carry about 900 litres (200 gallons). Even before installing our raw water pump the two of us could easily go for 6 weeks, and that included flushing the head. Showers were bag or swim though ... I suppose that would make a difference.


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

barefootnavigator said:


> For me camping is when I have to turn on the engine, I'm no longer cruising, I'm just motoring to the next campground.


Well, you're way more of a purist than most, nothing wrong with that...

But, as one for whom every cruise of any distance from my home usually begins with almost an hour of motoring, I've come to view the use of an engine as merely the _beginning_ of many an adventure under sail, just one of the tradeoffs that makes cruising possible, for me...

And, when I recount the array of marvelous places I never would have gotten to without resorting to the use of a diesel for awhile, it's all good...


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Everything is pumped for fresh and salt. Will turn pressure water off if past first 100g and only use manual head. Still carry plastic jugs and a flat of fresh. Baby wipes go a long way. Don't over salt food so more " free water" in our food. Have 200g but in process of putting in water maker. Wear hats and long sleeve shirts so less insensible water loss.


----------



## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Thank you Jon and a beautiful picture. I have often been called a purist but I can assure you my more or less engine-less ways are based off of budget, not tradition. In my younger days I sailed half way around the wold in quite a bit of luxury.

I killed my bucket list at the age of 30 and was left wondering what more is there. I gave away everything I had in the world which was quite substantial and decided to try a new challenge. I wanted to see first hand how the the other half lives. It has been trying more often than not but what I have received from the hardship is a new reason for living, my youth has returned and while I can assure you most would not find my chosen lifestyle attractive I find it to be exactly what the DR ordered. Most importantly I wanted to discover the difference between my needs and wants. It had all come about during the editing of a documentary film I made on the new homeless. I couldn't understand why all the people I met had such barriers to picking them self's up putting one foot in front of the other and making a new life. So my journey while most don't understand it is to show that anything in this world can be accomplished having nothing to start with.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> But, as one for whom every cruise of any distance from my home usually begins with almost an hour of motoring, I've come to view the use of an engine as merely the _beginning_ of many an adventure under sail, just one of the tradeoffs that makes cruising possible, for me...


Agreed. While I completely admire those who are better sailors than I, the fact is we usually use our engine to get in and off of docks and anchors. We do sail off anchor at least 50% of the time, and probably average about 10% of anchoring under sail. But I would never sail into a dock unless I had no other choice.

What we try NOT to do is motor simply to make distance. As a coastal cruiser it sometimes become necessary (like when you are too close to land to sit, yet the wind has died and the sun is falling). But we never start the engine to maintain a certain speed. As long as we have steerage, we're fine. And we almost never head out if there is no wind. We've been known to sit for many days waiting for wind.


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

MikeOReilly said:


> Agreed. While I completely admire those who are better sailors than I, the fact is we usually use our engine to get in and off of docks and anchors. We do sail off anchor at least 50% of the time, and probably average about 10% of anchoring under sail. But I would never sail into a dock unless I had no other choice.


In New Zealand sailing into a marina is prohibited and it is rare that anyone would sail into an anchorage.



MikeOReilly said:


> What we try NOT to do is motor simply to make distance. As a coastal cruiser it sometimes become necessary (like when you are too close to land to sit, yet the wind has died and the sun is falling). But we never start the engine to maintain a certain speed. As long as we have steerage, we're fine. And we almost never head out if there is no wind. We've been known to sit for many days waiting for wind.


On a trans-ocean voyage you can get becalmed for two or more days and if you're unlucky to be in an unfavourable current, you can do 50 miles in the wrong direction before the wind fills in again. We have motored from a calm into wind and saved several days at sea.


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

MikeOReilly said:


> Omatako, what do you use as water purification tablets? I've sometimes use liquid bleach in our tanks. As for the head, no issue here; composting head for us.


We use tablets as found on this link:

Aquatabs Water Purification Tablets



MikeOReilly said:


> Minnewaska, did you really mean to write that two of you use 220 gallons in two weeks? That's nearly 8 gallons per person per day. Did you mean litres? We carry about 900 litres (200 gallons). Even before installing our raw water pump the two of us could easily go for 6 weeks, and that included flushing the head. Showers were bag or swim though ... I suppose that would make a difference.


Yes, 30 odd litres a day per person is quite luxurious. We sailed for 24 days, three people and used just 700 litres - somewhere around 10 litres per person per day. We'll probably use more per person nowadays thanks to a productive watermaker.

BTW, when you guys talk about gallons, are you referring to US gallons? Because a US gallon is (I believe) 4 litres - so 200 US gallons is 800 litres?


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Omatako said:


> We use tablets as found on this link:
> 
> Aquatabs Water Purification Tablets
> 
> BTW, when you guys talk about gallons, are you referring to US gallons? Because a US gallon is (I believe) 4 litres - so 200 US gallons is 800 litres?


Thanks Omatako, I'll look into those. Any residual taste, or concern about long-term use?

And yes, US gallons. I think I did my calculation wrong. More like 800 litres for our boat.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> ......Minnewaska, did you really mean to write that two of you use 220 gallons in two weeks? That's nearly 8 gallons per person per day. Did you mean litres? .....


You heard me right. Showers, boiling water for dinner, washing dishes, washing hands, rinsing off with the transom shower, etc. Maybe one load of laundry per week. We do conserve, this isn't allowing water to just run.

But, then we ain't camping.


----------



## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm less impressed of people who talk about how little water they use compared to those that use what they want and don't run out!


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

O what you have for a water maker? Heard it said you should think " a galleon of diesel = ?so much water". How much fuel do you have?
I'm a newbie with my boat and would be scared to sail into a new anchorage with out the engine on although to my knowledge it would be legal.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> You heard me right. Showers, boiling water for dinner, washing dishes, washing hands, rinsing off with the transom shower, etc. Maybe one load of laundry per week. We do conserve, this isn't allowing water to just run.


Glad you can make this work. It's way above what most cruisers report. Heck, I don't use that much water in our house on land. But good for you if you can manage it. We clearly move in different worlds, but I suspect we'd still enjoy a glass of something if we ever met .


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

And as an ignorant Colonial, I believed what I was told. That Chorizo was Portuguese, not Spanish at all. 

But then again, the Bulgarians claim to have invented what the Greeks call Feta cheese. And in the US we call it all "Feta" cheese even though in Greece there are at least four different types each with a name of its own.

Of course we could argue about taco shells (made deluxe with WHEAT flour?) or Falafel, also almost always made with wheat in the US these days. 

Or, if you use fish in your paella at all...a huge amount of the fish sold in US fish markets isn't what it is sold as. I'm told at least 25% just isn't what it is supposed to be.

At least when you subsist on Tang and Spam, you know exactly what you are eating!
(VBG)


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

MikeOReilly said:


> Thanks Omatako, I'll look into those. Any residual taste, or concern about long-term use?


Hey Mike, no, no complaints at all. We've been using these since we came to NZ so about 12 years and no side effects or taste or anything else. Many of our shore water sources are rain tanks so we just pitch in the requisite requirement and we have just cleaner, safer water.

AFAIK these tabs are available all over the world. We keep a reserve stock for about 5k litres, refresh stock whenever we use them.


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

outbound said:


> O what you have for a water maker? Heard it said you should think " a galleon of diesel = ?so much water". How much fuel do you have?


I made my own watermaker using basic SS tubing, standard membranes, hydraulic tubing and flexi pipes, a CAT three cylinder pump, a needle valve and a lot of bits and pieces (pressure gauge, valves, supply pump, 5 micron filter, blow-off valve, etc). It runs off the main engine and generally we make water when we're motoring. When temperatures are good and water is clean we make about 140 - 150 litres an hour.

To be sure, when we're able to take on water shore-side, we do. The watermaker runs mostly when we're at sea or occasionally just to keep the membranes sweet. I don't record the cost of making water, compared to the cost of running out there's no contest.

FYI, we have 450 litres of diesel when full.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> Glad you can make this work. It's way above what most cruisers report. Heck, I don't use that much water in our house on land. But good for you if you can manage it. We clearly move in different worlds, but I suspect we'd still enjoy a glass of something if we ever met .


You use less than 8 gallons of water per person per day on land? With showers, toilets, washing dishes, washing clothes, etc?

Landlubbers use substantially more water. A household toilet alone will flush between 1.5 and 7 gallons, depending on age and design, each time! An open faucet for washing dishes will generally use between 10 and 20 gallons of water. A running shower can use over 20 gallons.

According to our EPA, a family of four can use up to 400 gallons per day. 

I have a buddy, whose wife just refuses to conserve water to any significant degree aboard. Open faucet to wash dishes, long showers, etc. He carries 150 gallons. When we cruise together, he is stopping for water about every 4 days. It's certainly plentiful along the New England coast and he doesn't seem to mind. That's too much for me, but to each their own. He is just happy that his non-sailor wife is so willing to go cruising, he just wants her to be comfortable.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> ......and yes paella to outsiders is the yellow chow mein looking crap you get taken for whereas real paella uses only pimenton and zaffron but very little
> 
> there are a million paella recipes, using different rices and methods...unfortunetly most people only like the seafood one or the "valenciana" one that is the most common
> 
> anyways when I get a chance Ill post some pics and recipes


Here, I got it started for you...........

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/provisioning/118169-paella-recipes.html#post1325609


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> You use less than 8 gallons of water per person per day on land? With showers, toilets, washing dishes, washing clothes, etc?
> 
> Landlubbers use substantially more water. A household toilet alone will flush between 1.5 and 7 gallons, depending on age and design, each time! An open faucet for washing dishes will generally use between 10 and 20 gallons of water. A running shower can use over 20 gallons.


Yup ... am well aware of water usage. Our land home is a small house with a well and a holding tank. We are well aware of how much water we use.



Minnewaska said:


> According to our EPA, a family of four can use up to 400 gallons per day.


The vast majority of that volume is actually the per-capita usage when all of society's usage is averaged across individuals. The vast majority of this usage is actually industrial and commercial. I agree our societies use huge amounts of water (and indeed all resources). I also know it is possible to use a lot less -- especially while on my boat .


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> .....The vast majority of that volume is actually the per-capita usage when all of society's usage is averaged across individuals. The vast majority of this usage is actually industrial and commercial......


I would have thought so too. The EPA says it is household use in the attached. However, while the EPA could do so much more good with a balanced head, it is often known to exaggerate and inflame to get attention to issues. When I had a house with a water softener, it had to be set to daily water consumption. Our family of four, at the time, used approx 100 gallons per day, with zero conservation. No idea where the 400 comes from.

US Indoor Water Use | WaterSense | US EPA


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I would have thought so too. The EPA says it is household use in the attached. However, while the EPA could do so much more good with a balanced head, it is often known to exaggerate and inflame to get attention to issues. When I had a house with a water softener, it had to be set to daily water consumption. Our family of four, at the time, used approx 100 gallons per day, with zero conservation. No idea where the 400 comes from.


That's incredible Minn ... I can't even fathom how one would use that much water in a day, even in a large home. I found other stats that agree with yours, such as the U.S. Geological Survey says 80 to 100 gallons per person per day for household use. Holy crow!

We use less than 6 gallons per person per day. I know this b/c all our water usage goes into a 2000 gallon holding tank, which gets pumped out every five months. If we used water the way the apparent average US (and I assume Canadian) person does, we'd be pumping our tank every few days ... that's crazy . How can this be ?

I can tell you, we don't live an ascetic life. Yes, we are careful, but not austere by any means. I'm blown away...


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Here, I got it started for you...........
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/provisioning/118169-paella-recipes.html#post1325609


here is a savouring saliviating pic for you since you gave me the bumpstart! jajaja


"que aproveche" like spaniards say


----------



## Tallswede (Jul 18, 2012)

MikeOReilly said:


> That's incredible Minn ... I can't even fathom how one would use that much water in a day, even in a large home. I found other stats that agree with yours, such as the U.S. Geological Survey says 80 to 100 gallons per person per day for household use. Holy crow!
> 
> We use less than 6 gallons per person per day. I know this b/c all our water usage goes into a 2000 gallon holding tank, which gets pumped out every five months. If we used water the way the apparent average US (and I assume Canadian) person does, we'd be pumping our tank every few days ... that's crazy . How can this be ?
> 
> I can tell you, we don't live an ascetic life. Yes, we are careful, but not austere by any means. I'm blown away...


Mike, that's why in many areas of the SW United States there are water shortages. Folks just turn on a faucet and water comes out with no thought of where the water comes from or where it goes when they are done with it. Irrigation techniques used on many farms are also very wasteful of water as well as other industrial uses. If more people camped or cruised or even had to haul their own water, usage could be cut by folks becoming aware. Loving this thread by the way.

Kevin


----------



## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

I had a problem recently with the sink my washer drains into. I was literally having to have it dump into a 5 gallon bucket so I could pour it into the toilet until I got the lines unclogged.

Even on "low" my washer uses about 6 gallons a cycle.. combine that with 3 cycles per load (wash, rinse, rinse/spin) and I am talking 18 gallons to do a load of wash!


----------



## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Tallswede said:


> Mike, that's why in many areas of the SW United States there are water shortages. Folks just turn on a faucet and water comes out with no thought of where the water comes from or where it goes when they are done with it. Irrigation techniques used on many farms are also very wasteful of water as well as other industrial uses. *If more people camped or cruised or even had to haul their own water, usage could be cut by folks becoming aware.* Loving this thread by the way.
> 
> Kevin


Having fewer than 130 golf courses in places like Palm Springs, CA, could make a slight difference, as well...


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Tallswede said:


> Mike, that's why in many areas of the SW United States there are water shortages. Folks just turn on a faucet and water comes out with no thought of where the water comes from or where it goes when they are done with it. Irrigation techniques used on many farms are also very wasteful of water as well as other industrial uses. If more people camped or cruised or even had to haul their own water, usage could be cut by folks becoming aware. Loving this thread by the way.


No kidding Kevin. A cursory look at the stats suggest that domestic use account for ~10% of total consumption in our rich industrialized countries, Commercial/industrial/agricultural add another factor to our daily per-capita usage: ~4000+ litres/person/day -- holy crap!!


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

MikeOReilly said:


> That's incredible Minn ... I can't even fathom how one would use that much water in a day, even in a large home. I found other stats that agree with yours, such as the U.S. Geological Survey says 80 to 100 gallons per person per day for household use. Holy crow!
> 
> We use less than 6 gallons per person per day. I know this b/c all our water usage goes into a 2000 gallon holding tank, which gets pumped out every five months. If we used water the way the apparent average US (and I assume Canadian) person does, we'd be pumping our tank every few days ... that's crazy . How can this be ?


We use water on land based on the same criteria as on the boat - we have no municipal supply and depend on rainwater caught on the rooftops of our buildings which is stored in a 6800 US gallon tank.

Our winters are essentially rain free for long periods. Last winter we went for 29 weeks with zero rain. When the rain came we were down to about 15% of our tank volume. So we had used 85% of 6800 USg or 5780 gallons. So doing the math, we used 5780 / (29 x 7) = 14 gallons each per day for two people.

The average 4-person family that has unlimited municipal supply would flush the toilet maybe 12 times a day, take 4 ten-minute showers and maybe a 50 litre bath or two, run the dishwasher twice, run the washing machine once, wash two cars, irrigate the lawn for three hours, top up the swimming pool. All of this adds up fast.

We by contrast do none of this when we're in the winter no-rain cycle. We have splash-n-dash showers, use the toilets at work as much as possible, wash dishes by hand, do laundry once a week, never wash cars or water the garden and have no pool. Oh, and we don't drink the tank water - my wife has a sensitive tummy so we drink only bottled water (as if that would make a difference )

So I'm with you Mike, I can't imagine using 100 gallons of water per person per day. Even in summer when water is plentiful, we're frugal and it helps us when we got to the boat.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

we use cisterns down here, they are a staple for land use...or pilas which are uncovered tanks where one traditionally washes clothes

every day at 12noon water goes out...I can calculate exactly how much water I use all afternnoon and night untile the water comes back on at 2am or so...

our cistern is 1100 liters

so basically having a tank with electric motor to come on when the water goes off is much like being on a boat

we are used to being frugal here...so we dont use the cistern to wash the car or the garden....in a pinch we have used the washing machine it cycles the cistern a lot

sometimes the water goesout for weeks at a time...then the big water truck comes and replenishes your cistern...almost everything is delivered to your house nowadays here, including propane, drinking water, even the grocery store...

we maybe use 10 galons per person a day...

that includes 3 craps on my end jajaja and 2 showers per household and the usual dishes etc...

honestly using this much or much much more on a boat simply goes against my will or if you will conscience...I just cant do it even though I could

for exa,ple when the cleaning lady comes she uses water in the all or nothing manner...

full blast hoses leaking spraying all over the place, plants exploding with soil when she points the jet to water them etc...

and she is very poor, so it goes to show that basically its about knowing what you are doing or chosing to be frugal that is worthy...

just cause you can doesnt mean you should

a phrase very true for these parts of the world

cheers


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Omatako said:


> So doing the math, we used 5780 / (58x7) = 14 gallons per day for two people.


That's right in line with our usage Omatako; ~12 gallons per day for two people on land. It's funny, but I don't perceive our water usage to be particularly frugal -- careful yes, but it's not like we're living a water-monastic life. I think on our boat we're a bit more careful about water usage, but it's really not like we're measuring every cup. We're just... the best word I can think of is _intentional,_ about our usage.



Omatako said:


> So I'm with you Mike, I can't imagine using 100 gallons of water per person per day. Even in summer when water is plentiful, we're frugal and it helps us when we got to the boat.


Exactly! And this was a point I made a while back. Few people change just b/c they move onto a boat. If they live an extravagant lifestyle on shore, they will do so on their boat -- and vice versa. Those who need a lot equate a frugal lifestyle with "camping." I guess it all depends on what you're used to.



christian.hess said:


> ...just cause you can doesnt mean you should.


Well put Christian. It's a piece of wisdom that seems to be lacking in many of our rich industrialized societies. Perhaps another way to think about it is to appreciate the idea of _enough_. What do I really need? Well, in this case it is 6 gallons of water per day ... even less when I'm on my boat .


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Omatako said:


> ...... Last winter we went for 58 weeks with zero rain. .....


Wow. How long does winter last down under?


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"The average 4-person family that has unlimited municipal supply would flush the toilet maybe 12 times a day, take 4 ten-minute showers and maybe a 50 litre bath or two, run the dishwasher twice, run the washing machine once, wash two cars, irrigate the lawn for three hours, top up the swimming pool. All of this adds up fast."

That's just a little beyond what's real. While the whole family might flush the toilet 12x, each member certainly wouldn't. And if each member took a 10-minute shower, the odds are none of them would ALSO take the 50 litre bath. Bath plus a fast rinse down, maybe. Bath plus a full shower? Nah.

Wash two cars every day? No, maybe once a week, no one does it more than that. Ditto the washing machine and dishwasher, they're not going to be run anywhere near that often. I don't know anyone who runs a dishwasher more than once per day, unless they've had a big company for holiday.

Three hours on the lawn? Daily? Not in most of the US. And top up the swimming pool? Uh, no, the average American doesn't even have one.

So do we use lots of water? You bet. But nowhere near the picture you are drawing.

And while 2.5gpm showerheads are common now, a lot are half of that. Older showerheads are sometimes prized like gold, because of the higher flow. Oddly enough , I may only be able to buy 2.5gpm showerheads--but if I want to install six of them in a luxury shower and run it for 1/2 hour at a time, that's perfectly legal. And I may have to install a low-flush toilet as well, but I'm allowed to flush it as often as I want. (I'm just glad that in the past decade, low-flush toilets have finally learned to flush without clogging. The early ones required 2x-3x more flushing in order to prevent clogs.)


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Wow. How long does winter last down under?


Sorry, have done math correction


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

hellosailor said:


> So do we use lots of water? You bet. But nowhere near the picture you are drawing.


I'm not actually trying to draw a picture - I found it really difficult to get up to the figures that are presented by Minnewaska and MikeOReilly. Unless you do it the way I described it, you could never get to the figures quoted. And the figures appear to come from a reliable source.

"U.S. Geological Survey says 80 to 100 gallons per person per day for household use."

Also given that there are millions of residents in the US that would never come close to the water usage I described, there must be other millions who exceed it by 50% or more.

So I'm not creating a scenario, I'm trying to arrive at one that in reality already exists.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> So do we use lots of water? You bet. But nowhere near the picture you are drawing.


I too could not believe the numbers Minnewaska shared. I was sure it had to be combined domestic+industrial+commercial -- but no. The limited research I did seems to confirm his numbers.

I'm as dumbfounded as Omatako about how we could achieve this an average usage rate, but the sources seem legit. BTW, Canadians and Americans use more water than just about anyone. European usage is about 1/2 of ours.


----------



## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

In our fifth wheel with us and four kids we make a hundred gallons go for almost a month on the average but we also lived in it for a couple years had unlimited fresh but had only a hundred gallons holding and weren't able to dump tanks but once a month so the kids became ferry conscious of water usage and that still continues my boys still take 8 min showers leave water running now days but know the navy way. Use it when ya got it and we auto conserve when we don't.


----------



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

MikeOReilly said:


> I too could not believe the numbers Minnewaska shared. I was sure it had to be combined domestic+industrial+commercial -- but no. The limited research I did seems to confirm his numbers.
> 
> I'm as dumbfounded as Omatako about how we could achieve this an average usage rate, but the sources seem legit. BTW, Canadians and Americans use more water than just about anyone. European usage is about 1/2 of ours.


I imagine the numbers include watering the yard. My winter water consumption is minimal, but I bet I hit those numbers in the summer, and I have a small yard.

Of course I live in rainy water-rich Minnesota, land of 10,000 lakes and the mighty Mississippi. We're not hurting for fresh water here. In fact during dry spells I get email reminders from the city telling me to turn the hose on my trees.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

We had a house once, with a jacuzzi tub in the master bath. It held nearly 200 gallons and my wife would fill it up almost nightly. We paid for water by the gallon in that neighborhood. Drove me nuts. 

Absent that, no way we got to 100 gals/person, but that is what the EPA says. My cynical side says the EPA is exaggerating for their own benefit. They must need money to address water quality or shortages somewhere.


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> We had a house once, with a jacuzzi tub in the master bath. It held nearly 200 gallons and my wife would fill it up almost nightly. We paid for water by the gallon in that neighborhood. Drove me nuts.
> 
> Absent that, no way we got to 100 gals/person, but that is what the EPA says. My cynical side says the EPA is exaggerating for their own benefit. They must need money to address water quality or shortages somewhere.


When one considers the tub you describe it becomes easier to imagine how the consumption numbers get up there. For each person using one of those tubs (and you're not the only household who owned one), just the tub accounts for the total consumption of two other people at the max quoted rate.

But I suspect you're right about EPA - creative accounting is not reserved for money.


----------



## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

hellosailor said:


> "The average 4-person family that has unlimited municipal supply would flush the toilet maybe 12 times a day,


Having an intestinal problem, I can flush the toilet 12 times a day on my own.

Going by my waterbill, I use under 1000 gallons a month. To be exact according to dec's bill.. I used 970


----------



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I just did a little back-of-the-envelope calculation. I try to keep an inch of precip a week on my lawn, so if it rains 0.25" then I water 0.75". If it doesn't rain at all I'll water the whole 1", and on my little 1/8 acre lot that's about 2500 gallons a week.

I bet people with half acre lots and automatic sprinkler systems put down 10,000 gallons a week easily. A few households like that averaging 1,500 gallons a day will definitely skew the average!

Not that any of this applies to cruising.


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> ...when the cleaning lady comes she uses water in the all or nothing manner&#8230; and she is very poor, so it goes to show that basically its about knowing what you are doing or chosing to be frugal that is worthy...
> 
> just cause you can doesnt mean you should...


+1



MikeOReilly said:


> ...We're just... the best word I can think of is _intentional,_ about our usage.
> 
> ...Perhaps another way to think about it is to appreciate the idea of _enough_. What do I really need? ...


+1

Regards,
Brad


----------



## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

How is water not free? Ive never understood in a lot of places why we are supposed to concerve water.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Water is recycled by nature, but not well in all locations. Population density, in some reasons, could also strain natures ability to keep up. Like all environmental issues, it takes a level head to know the difference. There are certainly places where it makes little difference how long one runs the faucet and places where it matters a great deal. No one size fits all.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

northoceanbeach said:


> How is water not free? Ive never understood in a lot of places why we are supposed to concerve water.


What Minnewaska said... plus the fact that every litre of tap water represents a significant resource use. From the pumping and storing to all the piping, treatment and final delivery, it takes a lot to deliver that water to your house. It then takes an equal effort to return it to the local ecosystem, cleansed and ready for recycling.

So potable water is certainly not "free". It behoves us all to use it wisely.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

northoceanbeach said:


> How is water not free? Ive never understood in a lot of places why we are supposed to concerve water.


dude you live in the PNW of course you think its free but man...are you talking about the world in general? if so it speaks volumes of what you dont know man!

sorry but even of its still abundant you have to pump it, store it....dam it etc...etc...

people die from bad water, lack of it etc even in the most industrialized and modern nations

your comment is very inflamatory to me at least


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> To me it means tourism.
> 
> There are many people cruising that dont have the money to visit the Pyramids when in Egypt, or the Colosseum when sailing Italy.
> 
> ...


I've seen enough tourist stuff to last me my whole life. I much prefer seeing nothing now.


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> dude you live in the PNW of course you think its free but man...are you talking about the world in general? if so it speaks volumes of what you dont know man!
> 
> sorry but even of its still abundant you have to pump it, store it....dam it etc...etc...
> 
> ...












And, before anyone gets mad, this was first sent to me by my brother, a civil engineer, who works for a non-profit organization that drills wells and builds water storage tanks in several African nations. He just got back from Sierra Leone.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

you must learn to always laugh at yourself, or you situation so as to ease your mind and spirit

adding comedy to every day tribulations is a way of life in most poor, developing countries but it applies to all levels of society....

I can laugh at your pic because it represents those around me and even my self sometimes beleive it or not cause we have been without water for weeks at a time...no energy...or water to even cook with... and had to carry water etc..

isnt this what cruising is about? jajajajajaa


----------



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

northoceanbeach said:


> How is water not free? Ive never understood in a lot of places why we are supposed to concerve water.


Water conservation is a very location dependent thing. We get our city water from the Mississippi river, which is continually recharged from rainwater and snow-melt. I keep my grass bright green all summer long and don't feel one bit bad about it, the only thing I'm wasting is the small amount of energy it takes to pump and process the water. Low-flow shower head? Pffft.

On the other hand, 30 miles away near White Bear Lake municipalities use groundwater for their supply. As the suburbs have grown water use has increased and now White Bear Lake is shrinking at an alarming rate. Docks are 300' out from where they once were.

And in Phoenix, don't even get me started! A golf course in Phoenix is a crime against humanity. They've overpumped their aquifers so much that the land has slumped and collapsed, filling in where the water used to be. If they had pumped at a sustainable rate they could have taken out a modest amount of water forever, but they have collapsed their aquifers and now they'll never recharge. Time to fight over the Colorado River.


----------



## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Bene505 said:


> +1
> 
> +1
> 
> ...





northoceanbeach said:


> How is water not free? Ive never understood in a lot of places why we are supposed to concerve water.


Costs money to drill wells pump the water, purify the water, place the pipes to distribute the water, and to maintain all these systems. Aquifer are not imedately replenished I realize here in the pnw it seems weird being as we are the only place in the northern hemisphere with a rain forest but there have been years even we have been in drought conditions


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Water has always been one of my pet peeves. I'm constantly amazed that someone, way back when, decided that we should get rid of human an animal waste by dumping it in the water - any body of water. It's insane.

And, what most people don't understand is the aquifer recharge rate in most of the U.S. ranges from 500 years to 10,000 years. So I just love it when the stupid news caster gets on TV and says "looks like that much needed rain will be coming today and provide help for folks who's wells are running dry." What an idiot. The water we're withdrawing from our well went into the ground during the last Ice Age - not yesterday afternoon. That's why we can drink it without having to go through various chemical treatments to remove toxins and other contaminants.

And, of course, the EPA in their infinite wisdom, has always adhered to the policy that the solution to pollution is dilution, especially when it came to issuing discharge permits to industry and municipalities. They never looked at the possibilities that all those chemicals combining at the mouth of Baltimore Harbor formed new and exciting chemical compounds that cause an enormous health threat to the general public. Hell, they allowed several chemical plants and at least one steel plant to dump certain petro-chemicals into the harbor, which then mixed with the chlorinated sewage water flowing down Back River, thus creating carbon tetrachloride, which causes liver cancer in mammals. So now we have finfish, crabs, oysters, clams and mussels being harvested from water that is contaminated with one of the most hazardous chemicals known to man, and the Maryland Department of Health and Mental Hygiene continue to make brash claims that Chesapeake Bay seafood is perfectly safe to consume. However, if you search their website, you'll find a seafood consumption chart that pretty much tells you not to eat this stuff.

In a post above, someone said they get their water from the Mississippi River - lots of luck with that one pal. When I was a journalist for one of the nation's largest newspapers, I published an article about the Susquehanna River, which is one of the largest in the nation. At the time, there were 130 wastewater treatment plants along the river's shores, which stretch from Bingington, NY to Havre de Grace, MD. Just above each and every treatment plant was usually where there was a water withdrawal system, where municipalities withdrew millions of gallons of river water daily for to be treated for human consumption. By the time the river's waters reached Harrisburg, PA the entire water volume of the river had been recycled at least once. At the end of the article I wrote *"If the good people of Harrisburg didn't flush their toilets, Havre de Grace and Baltimore wouldn't have any water to drink." * Think about it!

The volume of suspended particulate matter in Chesapeake Bay is beyond anyone's wildest imagination. In my 73-year lifetime, I've personally witnessed those waters go from relatively clean and clear to horrendous. In 1960, when I was discharged from the U.S. Navy, I supplemented my income by diving for oysters that were clustered among the pilings of the old Chesapeake Bay Bridge. There were places where the oysters were a foot thick on the pilings, fat and tasty. You could see them clearly 20 feet beneath the surface when the season opened in early October. Today, at the same location, there's not a living oyster anywhere in the area, and the underwater visibility is about 3 inches on a good day. Yet, we've blown 8-billion tax dollars on the Chesapeake Bay cleanup program, which has essentially been an abysmal failure. Most of the money was blown on useless studies, which began back in 1898.

You gotta love it!,

Gary


----------



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

travlineasy said:


> And, what most people don't understand is the aquifer recharge rate in most of the U.S. ranges from 500 years to 10,000 years. So I just love it when the stupid news caster gets on TV and says "looks like that much needed rain will be coming today and provide help for folks who's wells are running dry." What an idiot. The water we're withdrawing from our well went into the ground during the last Ice Age - not yesterday afternoon.


This is true for some aquifers, especially the deep ones. Like around Phoenix, as I previously mentioned.

But most shallow aquifers are recharged directly from rainwater, and the amount of rainfall received over the year greatly affects the level of the aquifer. After a drought year you might have to shut off the irrigation pumps.

I've been on aquifer tests where we pump heavily to locally draw the aquifer way down. Then we measure the recharge rate so we can calculate a sustainable level of pumping. During these tests we would also maintain a rain gauge, because a heavy rain would affect the recharge curve. I've seen the curve change visibly less than twelve hours after a heavy rain.



travlineasy said:


> In a post above, someone said they get their water from the Mississippi River - lots of luck with that one pal.


We have very good luck with it, thank you! Minneapolis is the first large metro area on the Mississippi; the river is only a couple hundred miles old at this point and is relatively clean, compared to the cesspool it is by the time it gets to Louisiana.

But my point wasn't about the purity of Mississippi River water, it was about the amount. I can water my lawn and not worry that I'm permanently depleting some resource.


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

northoceanbeach said:


> How is water not free? Ive never understood in a lot of places why we are supposed to concerve water.


In New Zealand we have just one fossil fuel power plant in the national grid. We have several wind farms that feed the grid but predominantly, our electricity comes from hydro plants. Thus most water storage reservoirs are built with electricity in mind, not drinking water. So when water is abused or drought conditions threaten, the first concern is the country running out of power.

In Auckland, we not only pay for water that we consume, the average household or business also pays a levy based on the volume consumed for water purification. So all the water that runs from a home is directed to purification facilities and then returned to the network. As it happens, I live on an island where none of this affects us because we live on rainwater and dispose of run-off through septic tanks and french drains so our water is free - when we can get it. But the vast majority of the population pay significant amounts of money for potable water.

It is postulated that by 2050 there will be 9 billion people on Earth.

"There's not enough fresh water to handle nine billion people at current consumption levels," says Patricia Mulroy, a board member of the Colorado-based Water Research Foundation, which promotes the development of safe, affordable drinking water worldwide. People need a "fundamental, cultural attitude change about water supply in the Southwest," she adds. "It's not abundant, it's not reliable, it's not going to always be there."

Already, in many parts of the world, people are paying more per litre for bottled drinking water than for gasoline. If that doesn't frighten you, it should.

Wow, I bet nobody would recognise the present content of this thread based on the subject line - sorry for the huge thread hijack.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Omatako said:


> Wow, I bet nobody would recognise the present content of this thread based on the subject line - sorry for the huge thread hijack.


It's all good in my books Omatako. Living frugally without "camping" is all about wise resource use. Water is the most important resource we all need. A discussion about usage and attitudes towards water makes sense to me .


----------



## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

When cruising I carry 27 gallons fresh water onboard and augment with rainfall and a solar distillation plant that I built from stuff I found that others were throwing away only gives me a half gallon here per day but that's enough to extend my water range by thirteen days at a consumption of a gallon a day I cruise solo and if I can't make landfall in 40 days I have made a bad mistake in celestial navigation considering i cruise costal. The cost of the still zero dollars to make and use.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

newhaul said:


> When cruising I carry 27 gallons fresh water onboard and augment with rainfall and a solar distillation plant that I built from stuff I found that others were throwing away only gives me a half gallon here per day but that's enough to extend my water range by thirteen days at a consumption of a gallon a day I cruise solo and if I can't make landfall in 40 days I have made a bad mistake in celestial navigation considering i cruise costal. The cost of the still zero dollars to make and use.


Can you describe your solar still. Any plans? Pics? It's something I've thought about trying.


----------



## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Got the idea from the book sailing the farm don't have any pics but will see if I can send you the page it was on in my copy of the book my tablet won't let me post it from the book its on page 42 I can email it pm me and I will send it to you


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

newhaul said:


> Got the idea from the book sailing the farm don't have any pics but will see if I can send you the page it was on in my copy of the book my tablet won't let me post it from the book its on page 42 I can email it pm me and I will send it to you


Thanks! But don't bother. I've got the book. I'm building his solar dehydrator right now. I've looked at his still plans, but I've read critisms that it didn't really work. Sounds like yours is doing well.


----------



## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> Thanks! But don't bother. I've got the book. I'm building his solar dehydrator right now. I've looked at his still plans, but I've read critisms that it didn't really work. Sounds like yours is doing well.


Actually I combined it with a still design I found that is for making alcohol for first distillation before using a reflux column. Goole science in Africa solar still it feeds the raw water differently than in the book that one cools the water while replenishing mine uses cplary action to wet the towel. Thanks for reminding me wouldn't want to mislead people I suffered brain damage when a kid memory isn't the best.


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Mike, take a look at 




Gary


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)




----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I live near a lake, where the lake properties still predominantly draw their drinking water directly from the lake. Most sanitize it with either UV or chlorine. Their water supply is most definitely replenished by rain water runoff. Their intakes are usually sent out into the lake, so they remain below the freezing level. However, in droughts, some didn't go out far enough to remain below the diminished lake level.


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Where I live in Maryland, the water table has dropped more than 100 feet in the past 40 years. Much of this was due to agricultural irrigation systems that consume millions of gallons per day per system to irrigate sand fertilized with chicken and cow manure so corn can be grown to feed chickens and cattle. These irrigation systems are archaic and more water evaporates into the air than actually goes to the crop.

Gary


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

travlineasy said:


> Mike, take a look at ...


Thanks Gary. Looks like something even I could do.


----------



## CLOSECALL (Dec 11, 2012)

I've lost track. Are we camping or cruising now?


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

EPA, USGS, statistics mean nothing without context, and unless someone can supply a specific URL that points to sources clarifying and confirming the numbers, they're meaningless. 

OTOH "European usage is about 1/2 of ours. " well that's just a simple mistake, usually caused by dividing instead of multiplying, or vice versa, when converting from metric to Colonial gallons. (VBG)

I DO know that one leaky toilet, which many people ignore, or one dripping faucet, can consume a huge amount of water in one day. And since many US residents are apartment tenants, not house owners or house dwellers, they receive no water bill and have no idea or concern for how much they are burning through. Their landlords often don't care either, they just raise the rent to cover it.

That kind of stuff can really skew statistics. Especially if there's metric conversion. (G)


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I did the research on my newspaper article more than 20 years ago, and the way things have been going, I strongly suspect they are a lot worse now. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Anyone that sincerely believes water is an inexhaustible resource should read The Ogallala Aquifer, an important water resource, is in trouble - KansasCity.com

When I did the research on my article two decades ago, the aquifer had been drawn down 360 feet and withdrawal rates were on the increase.

Gary


----------



## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

CLOSECALL said:


> I've lost track. Are we camping or cruising now?


seems we have gone to discussing global water conservation here while cruising requires some form of surface water  even I am guilty of it  :laugher


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> OTOH "European usage is about 1/2 of ours. " well that's just a simple mistake, usually caused by dividing instead of multiplying, or vice versa, when converting from metric to Colonial gallons. (VBG)


Sorry, I did not provide any sources for this "simple mistake." Pretty easy to verify. Here's one of many sources.

Water usage, OECD countries, 2009 (or most recent data):

"Canada's freshwater withdrawals were 1,131 cubic metres per capita in 2007-over nine times more than in Denmark, the best performer, and double the 16-country average. Canada ranks second to last on this indicator and earns a "C" grade. Only the U.S. has higher water withdrawals-1,632 cubic metres per capita.Eight of Canada's peer countries had freshwater withdrawals below the average of 572 cubic metres per capita; seven of those countries received "A" grades."


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Mike, that URL makes my point precisely. It is not talking about domestic water use by individuals, it is talking about "per capita" "water withdrawls". Meaning, the amount of water the entire nation uses for industrial and commercial and residential purposes, divided by the entire population. So if Pepsi pumps a million gallons of water, and GE uses another billion to cool power plants and reactors, that all gets averaged out as "used" by the population.

Very different from asking how much water each of us uses directly for our own purposes.


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

My best advice, take lots of beer and booze with you on any cruise - works for me. I've made a solar still out of a black, plastic box, some Saran wrap, a catch basin, some monofilament line and a fishing sinker - did a good job in hot weather and produced about a pint a day from seawater. Not much to it, but as the one video revealed, you must filter the chunks out of the input water or you'll not like the end result.

You can survive for a long time on a case of lite beer. Lots of good stuff in beer, the taste is great, and the basic ingredients are the same as in Wheaties - but it's fermented for a while. If it were not for beer, the world as we know it would not exist at all. There is a great You Tube feature on this subject.






Gary


----------



## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

In an effort to do my part as far as global resource conservation is concerned I have completely given up drinking water. We only drink beer now


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)




----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> Mike, that URL makes my point precisely. It is not talking about domestic water use by individuals, it is talking about "per capita" "water withdrawls". Meaning, the amount of water the entire nation uses for industrial and commercial and residential purposes, divided by the entire population. So if Pepsi pumps a million gallons of water, and GE uses another billion to cool power plants and reactors, that all gets averaged out as "used" by the population.
> 
> Very different from asking how much water each of us uses directly for our own purposes.


Of course ... silly me. Domestic use seems to more or less parallel total withdrawals. Heres's an exhaustive paper on on the subject: "The World's Water 2008-2009".

For comparison, the US uses 193 m3/person/yr. Canada uses 260. This compares to the heavy Eurpean users like Germany at 57, UK at 41 and France at 83. Belgium 93 and Italy at 127.

Here's a nice graphical view of this data.


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Yeah, but we lead the world in beer consumption too.

Gary


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

MikeOReilly said:


> Of course ... silly me. Domestic use seems to more or less parallel total withdrawals. Heres's an exhaustive paper on on the subject: "The World's Water 2008-2009".
> 
> For comparison, the US uses 193 m3/person/yr. Canada uses 260. This compares to the heavy Eurpean users like Germany at 57, UK at 41 and France at 83. Belgium 93 and Italy at 127.
> 
> Here's a nice graphical view of this data.


Mike,

Great thread and I just "liked" one of your posts. But there's something that has to be said of the water usage comparisons&#8230;

In the U.S, the rivers flow south. This makes for natural agriculture, versus places where the rivers run north into a colder climate, like Russia, Germany, etc.. In the U.S. water is much more plentiful. We use it because it is there. Put another way, we actually let it mix in with seawater (eventually) in grandiose amounts. I'd bet our water usage is negligible compared to what flows-on-by and mixes in with the sea.

Not only that, but it's clean water. We have clean water available right from the tap. When I stayed in Germany as an exchange studuent 30+ years ago, you could not drink the tap water in the family's house. They had to drink bottled water. And that was 30 years ago. I was amazed, never having heard of such a thing.

So the U.S. uses more water. Fantastic, there's a lot of water here. Run through the sprinklers and drink up. It must mean we are living better. Granted, it's not evenly distributed, but if you water your lawn out of the Missippi, have at it. I'm for projects which effectively help to distribute the water better. And I supprt conservation efforts. The point is in the repeated use of a misleading comparison.

IIRC, there's a story about an African Chief was brought to the U.S. a couple centuries ago. He was brought to Niagara Falls. When it came time to leave, he wouldn't go. He was waiting for the water to run out. He said "God would not allow such waste." When it was explained to him that the water would just continue to flow, he knew that he could not explain it to his tribesman back home. They would not comprehend it. (I think this is from 'Wind Sand and Stars', an excellent book.)

My point? The article you quoted uses a quote from someone from Ethiopia, that had likely never seen a lake before, let alone Canada with all it many beautiful lakes. That is pointedly misleading people. If I go to Saudia Arabia, I'll say there was a lot of sand, but I won't hold it against them. There won't be some socialist group looking for a poster-boy to further the cause over the mistreatment and waste of their sand. There won't be posters that say "They actually walk all over their sand, they kick it, they give it no reverence at all. In some places they shovel it off to the side, like so much trash. They even pee on it, mockingly writing their names in splattered cursive. They are so bad. Vote for us or this will continue."

I'm tired of these U.S.-is-bad studies, likely funded by our adversaries. And I include as adversaries those thinly-veiled socialist-leaning organizations within the U.S. that would like the total world population to go back to a "sustainable" 10,000 people and for us all to live in caves again. But of course, they won't get rid of their jets/mega mansions/megayachts, let alone volunteer to leave.

Apologies for _overtly_ bringing politics into the thread, but the repeated use of the water usage graph as an indicator of "badness" was a _covert_ introduction of politics that had to be countered. Saying we use more water per capta that Europe is like telling an Eskimo that he uses more snow per capita than Jamaica, or like telling that Arab that he uses more sand than we do.

Regards,
Brad

P.S. Ever notice that you don't hear about environmental issue when "their" guy is in the White House? And yet, nothing has changed. Just wait until the next election and ask yourself "But did this problem go away for 8 years and then suddenly become a problem again?" I've been around long enough to see this cycle around several times, from the pre-Carter "the environment is suffering", then during Carter it was crickets. "Big Problem, Hurry!" then crickets. "It's the environment, stupid." then crickets. The enviroment is a puck in the game and none of the big boys actually cares once they have your vote. Watch for this cycle. It's about to flip from silence to urgency again as the next election nears.


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Funny thread...we just slept ashore in our tent on Ko Tarutao in Thailnd while Aeventyr was sitting quietly on her anchor....wonderful evening in front of a campfire, cooked fresh snapper wrapped in banana leaves over the hot coals....good to go camping once in awhile.


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

When most of your protein comes fresh out of the sea and you make your own water or pull it out of a nearby glacial stream the distinction of camping or fine living tends to blend. A bit different is putting a 3 gallon ceramic vase on your head and walking home 2miles from from the communal ditch. If our technological infra structure were to suddenly fail most would cease to be for not knowing how to adapt. Even in this world as we know it, Kidney failure is common in Mexico (lack of drinking water while working in the fields picking your tomatoes) and among women in India ( don't drink because there is nowhere safe to pee ,Only at night, in the fields in groups. I consider camping to be pretty high up the ladder of life styles.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

aeventyr60 said:


> Funny thread...we just slept ashore in our tent on Ko Tarutao in Thailnd while Aeventyr was sitting quietly on her anchor....wonderful evening in front of a campfire, cooked fresh snapper wrapped in banana leaves over the hot coals....good to go camping once in awhile.


while Im not living on my boat yet(the plan is to be there 2-3 days a week can live that life down here too...jeje

fried fish or ceviche $3-4....roast some fish on the beach free...50c beers yes...swim back to boat free...sit and watch the sunset on a beautiful estuary free of high rises and buildings priceless

thailand was a cool place I loved it


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Capt Len said:


> *When most of your protein comes fresh out of the sea and you make your own water or pull it out of a nearby glacial stream the distinction of camping or fine living tends to blend.* A bit different is putting a 3 gallon ceramic vase on your head and walking home 2miles from from the communal ditch. If our technological infra structure were to suddenly fail most would cease to be for not knowing how to adapt. Even in this world as we know it, Kidney failure is common in Mexico (lack of drinking water while working in the fields picking your tomatoes) and among women in India ( don't drink because there is nowhere safe to pee ,Only at night, in the fields in groups. I consider camping to be pretty high up the ladder of life styles.


this is a priceless comment and to my non sailing friends its something I try to explain to them...

when you live off the sea...for example grabbing lobster or octopus or a nice grouper all expensive items at the grocery store, or even salmon up in cold waters and its free except for your time...how is this not high up in lifestyle?

isnt this luxurious and even more gratifyig? my friends really never get the last part

they always imediately look at the dolar amount...how much did it cost to do that etc...when you say free for your work and effort they are like aaaaaaaaaaaah thats too hard you never know, may never catch one too dangerous blah blah blah

your comment in bold has always been one of my enfasis when "preaching" the cruising lifestyle if you will, I dont do it as much as I used to...Id rather show them nowadays...hopefully soon!

camping(cruising) and luxury can go hand in hand...really!


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Brad, it's not my intention to politicize this discussion, nor to blame anyone. And to be clear, I'm Canadian. I don't really care about US domestic politics. A previous poster pointed out I made a statement without supporting it: that North Americans use ~twice as much water as Europeans. The paper and the graph show who uses what. That's all.

I said nothing about the _causes_ of our proportionally higher water use here in NA. I'm sure you are correct; we (Canadians and Americans) use more than many other western countries b/c we can. Our ecosystem can manage this higher usage rates. But just b/c we can do something, doesn't mean we should. Wise use of all resources seems to me to be a good thing. The fact that other advanced industrial nations are able to use a lot less water suggests we in NA could learn a few tricks.

The whole point of this tangent/discussion was really around the wise use of water. Living frugally on a boat, or indeed anywhere, demands that all resources be used wisely. Sorry if all that came across as American bashing -- it was not intended as such.


----------



## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Comparing water as a resource in the U.S. to sand in Saudi Arabia does not make a whole lot of sense.


----------



## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

OK we use lots of water compared to others here's one question I really don't know the specific answer to how many liters of water for each cubic yard of concrete poured and the average house foundation uses 50 yds of Crete America uses lots more than other countries both in water and concrete just something to chew on


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

aeventyr60 said:


> Funny thread...we just slept ashore in our tent on Ko Tarutao in Thailnd while Aeventyr was sitting quietly on her anchor....wonderful evening in front of a campfire, cooked fresh snapper wrapped in banana leaves over the hot coals....good to go camping once in awhile.


Lovely image aeventyr60. I want to go camping again!

Actually, my wife and I are looking forward to getting back to camping for a few days at a time while cruising. We just bought inflatable kayaks (Advanced Elements) with the intention of using them to go kayak camping.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

my sister said she was doing a 6 week camping and kayak excursion somewhere in vancouver or something and I was like yeah blah blah blah rub it in sis...

however I was sipping a cool beer on my boat in mid 80 degree weather down here so I wasnt complaining THAT MUCH! jajaja

ps. about kayaks it has been brought up in a nother thread they they tow worth crap...so if you buy kayaks that are not stowable like those green and yellow ocean kayaks do not to them...they carve the stern waves a lot and ove side to side...you have to install a litttle rudder on back at the least


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

To get it back on camping, I will add this.

When I was in high school, my parents had a camper, and then a Winnebago, that we went "camping" in all of time. My father and mother loved it. I though it was boring. We mostly parked in RV parks, and I would be off in the surrounding woods (if there were any, which there frequently weren't) the second we stopped. 

When I was in my teens, and in college, I used to backpack a lot (one of my best trips was hiking on the Appalachian Trail from Tennessee into up in North Carolina. We carried everything on our backs and I loved it. When I wasn't doing that, I was just tent camping in state parks a lot of weekends, and I loved it.

When I was in my twenties, I bought a 25D Cape Dory. I spent a lot of weekends, and a few weeks, cruising in that boat, often with friends aboard. I used to tell people, it will sleep four people, but only if two of them are girls and two are boys. It had a sun shower, a toilet, and an alcohol stove, with a charcoal grill on the back, and not much else in the way of creature comforts. I still to this day wish I had taken a year or two off and taken that boat long distance cruising. I was too busy and too stupid to realize the opportunity I had.

As I got older, I moved up in boat size and amenities to the point I really do have a floating Winnebago now. I finally went long distance cruising a few years ago in a 42 footer, with generator, A/C, two heads, stove, oven, etc., etc. I don't think I had a better time than I would have had in the Cape Dory.

But, I'm 55 now, and I'm not sure what a chiropractor would have to do to fix me if I walked for a week on mountain trails with a 60 pound pack, or just slept on the ground for a week. 

But, it was sure fun at the time.

I guess the point of the long rant is this, different people like doing different things. And, some people even like doing different things, at different points in their lives. That doesn't mean that one thing is better than the other thing.


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

MikeOReilly said:


> Brad, it's not my intention to politicize this discussion, nor to blame anyone. And to be clear, I'm Canadian. I don't really care about US domestic politics. A previous poster pointed out I made a statement without supporting it: that North Americans use ~twice as much water as Europeans. The paper and the graph show who uses what. That's all.
> 
> I said nothing about the _causes_ of our proportionally higher water use here in NA. I'm sure you are correct; we (Canadians and Americans) use more than many other western countries b/c we can. Our ecosystem can manage this higher usage rates. But just b/c we can do something, doesn't mean we should. Wise use of all resources seems to me to be a good thing. The fact that other advanced industrial nations are able to use a lot less water suggests we in NA could learn a few tricks.
> 
> The whole point of this tangent/discussion was really around the wise use of water. Living frugally on a boat, or indeed anywhere, demands that all resources be used wisely. Sorry if all that came across as American bashing -- it was not intended as such.


Thanks Mike. We are in agreement.

.

Regarding camping, I still have "canoe camping in the Boundry Waters area" on my bucket list. Back in the day, friends and I would go winter camping. I'd hard to break yourself away from the ocean in the summer.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Bene505 said:


> Regarding camping, I still have "canoe camping in the Boundry Waters area" on my bucket list. Back in the day, friends and I would go winter camping. I'd hard to break yourself away from the ocean in the summer.


Hey Brad, the Boundary Waters/Quetico Provincial Park is an amazing canoe tripping paradise. It's just down the road from us. I've been there a few times, with the last one being a 10-day trip. You'd love it.

I have to admit though, since sailing/cruising has taken hold of me, I haven't been on a long trip. Sailing seems to take all my time and energy. Besides, I can bring all the beer and wine I want on my sailboat ... hard to compete with this .


----------



## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

As far as water goes I have used two gallons a day or less when not conserving for two people and a dog over the last 5 years. I don't ad laundry in that calculation as I have never had to do it on the boat in that 5 years period. I was my dishes in fresh water and the dog wastes quite a bit. I prefer to shower with salt water, if you dry off before the water evaporates it will leave your skin smooth and soft.


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

We have 1,000 liters of water. For our family of 6, it lasts 3 to 4 weeks. That's with the occasional shower. Note that we are on shore a lot with water and showers available there too.

We have 2x 10 lb propane tanks. A tank lasts us about 6 weeks.

With a lot of solar (530 Watts), we can use the microwave whenever we want. 

We go a long time without refueling. I believe it's important to never have to run the engine to charge the batteries. Solar is very well matched to battery charging, delivering steady power to top off the batteries.

We (theoretically) save on having to replace the house batteries by dumping extra power during the day into the freezer and fridge. Last summer I played it by ear, but I plan to install a "dump load only" thermostat in the fridge set at 32 degrees so the food won't freeze, and so we can put as much "excess energy" in there as possible. T plan to put fresh water in used anti-freeze bottles in the bottom of the fridge, so they freeze first, storing even more energy. Both the freezer and fridge have cold plates too. Last spring I lined the inside of the freezer with 2" foam on every side and on top -- even thicker foam on the bottom. The top foam actually makes a second lid inside the regular lid.

I belive these techniques could allow you to have a fridge without a battery. It's easy enough to store "cold".

Regards,
Brad


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Gary-
"Yeah, but we lead the world in beer consumption too."
Sure, if you call Buttwiper "beer". Of course Guinness doesn't count as beer, since it is stout. And Sam Adams might be ale. Harp and Bass are "light beer" in my book, and the thin yellow stuff that fuels so many frat parties and tailgates....well, I'm just glad those folks won't be competing for the Real Thing.

Christian-
In much of the world, unless you are a citizen you will be paying royally if you take the fish, the grouper, the lobster. And if you are a citizen but don't have the licenses...some years ago a conservation officer decided to make a point when he caught a scuba diver with lobsters but no lobster license in New York. The law allows him to confiscate any and all objects used in the commission of the crime, and he left the diver in his skivvies, standing next to his car, with no keys. All confiscated pending the court appearance.
By all means, dine royally, but remember that if you aren't the king, you'd best ask his permission about that. In the US and many other countries, they don't fool around.

Brad-
Your idea of stashing energy in the icebox sounds great, but have you considered putting some kind of phase-change material in those a/f bottles instead of just water? From what I've read, even bottles of "blue goo" will store more energy than water ice, no? And there must be a DIY formula for that around.


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

MikeOReilly said:


> Lovely image aeventyr60. I want to go camping again!
> 
> Actually, my wife and I are looking forward to getting back to camping for a few days at a time while cruising. We just bought inflatable kayaks (Advanced Elements) with the intention of using them to go kayak camping.


Have the single AE kayak. great way to explore the mangroves and small rivers. Able to sneak up on a lot of critters....quietly.

I forgot the fresh clams we gathered and steamed over some seaweed tossed on the coals.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Bene505 said:


> Last summer I played it by ear, but I plan to install a "dump load only" thermostat in the fridge set at 32 degrees so the food won't freeze, and so we can put as much "excess energy" in there as possible. T plan to put fresh water in used anti-freeze bottles in the bottom of the fridge, so they freeze first, storing even more energy. Both the freezer and fridge have cold plates too. Last spring I lined the inside of the freezer with 2" foam on every side and on top -- even thicker foam on the bottom. The top foam actually makes a second lid inside the regular lid.


Interesting ideas Brad. I may try and add some additional insulation to our fridge. I'm not happy with the amp-hr draw, although judging from other comments we may not be far off the mark (~6-7 amp draw, running 20 min/hr).

Our generating system includes 100 watts solar and a 400 watt wind gen. When the wind is blowing 15 knots or more we are generating more power than we can use, but when the wind drops, we need to manage the fridge draw. I'm going to look into your water bottle idea for storing excess (cooling) energy.


----------



## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

hellosailor said:


> Gary-
> "Yeah, but we lead the world in beer consumption too."
> Sure, if you call Buttwiper "beer". Of course Guinness doesn't count as beer, since it is stout. And Sam Adams might be ale. Harp and Bass are "light beer" in my book, and the thin yellow stuff that fuels so many frat parties and tailgates....well, I'm just glad those folks won't be competing for the Real Thing.
> 
> ...


we went to parts of the world where only the sun and clouds were above us and reefs and sand below us...

most countries have stringent laws on spearfishing while *scuba diving*...which I understand Im not doing that

but anybody who tells me not to fish can screw himself...we are not predatory and we do not overfish...we take what the sea provides and are thankful

btw sport fishing should be banned more instead of people living off the land and sea...

lobsters that have eggs we dump back down...to spawn etc

common guys

ps. yes I wasnt even close to saying to do this in the states...the amount of stupidity in fishing laws especially drove me nuts...but since this thread was more wordly you can fish and have a wonderful life doing so if you just do it and respectfully in many many countries...

and of course if your over some guys traps or something if you dont ask your just being stupid...and disrespectful

carry on


----------



## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Got caught by a DWF agent one time catching salmon out of season without a license showed him my empty fridge and he told me to take a couple more fish had 3 at that point and he told me to not do it again. That was in Washington state some of the most strict laws in the good ol USA also have found most don't come to your boat to check your license and catch so take what you can eat and process on the boat they seem to leave you alone. That's what a pressure cooker that can do up to fifteen psi is for. And in other places in the world if you catch and eat the local constabulary didnt even seem to bat an eyelash at me.


----------



## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> ...
> Brad-
> Your idea of stashing energy in the icebox sounds great, but have you considered putting some kind of phase-change material in those a/f bottles instead of just water? From what I've read, even bottles of "blue goo" will store more energy than water ice, no? And there must be a DIY formula for that around.


In the fridge I use pure water, since I want it to freeze before the food does. That's also why I put it at the bottom of our top-opening fridge, under everything else, but next to the beer and white wine. (Cold beer!)

For the freezer, I'll use the antifreeze that is currently protecting our hot and cold water lines on the boat. It will be diluted to freeze at about 20 degrees or so -- cold enough to still keep the ice cream cold, but warm enough for the freezer to turn it solid.

If you are lining your fridge or freezer with that 2" thick foam found at Home Depot, you can cut it with a long box cutter. For the bottom of our freezer, I made a template of the shape needed using some cardboard. For insulation, I used a big block of the blue foam that keeps docks afloat. Courtesy of hurricane Sandy, I found some on a walk along a beach. Then I made a foam cutter using a piece of picture hanging wire connected to my car's battery. It made very smooth cuts. The only issue was making some uprights to attach to the workmate, above a plank of wood. The foam slid along the plank and was evenly cut. By attaching my template to the foam, I just cut where the template was. It took a few tries to get right, but in the end, I decreased the size of the freezer and brought the bottom of the freezer storage area up 9", above where water would seep in from the adjoining fridge.

I may cut some of the freezer bottom's foam block to make more room in the freezer for the cold-storage diluted antifreeze containers.

We have a fridge and freezer that (together) are maybe 12 to 15 cubic feet. Our Danfoss compressor cools both of them and usues 3 amp. It's only on about 4 hours a day of the time. So maybe 12 amp hours/day. The insulation in the freezer really helps.

I did buy a small sheet or 2 of cryogen/aerogel for behind the cold plates, but I haven't installed it yet. There's about 1/8 to 1/4 inch gap behind there and it's not be enough space to insultate with foam. An inch of Cryogel/Aerogel is equal to 6 inches of foam, so you can see why I want to use it there. If I was to do it over (or order a new boat form a factory), I'd make suree the fridge and freezer were wrapped in Cryogel/Aerogel instead of foam. Either that, or use a liquid nitrogen fewer as the basis of the freezer. There's really no reason for a compressor to ever run at night, not when you can bring an overused thermos bottle with you. And the cost would pay for itself quickly. Put another way, how would you like to have ice cream and cold beer using a 24" square solar panel? Maybe an exaggeration, but you get my point. We live with unnessary heat leaks on a routine basis.

Hope all that helps.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

newhaul said:


> Got caught by a DWF agent one time catching salmon out of season without a license showed him my empty fridge and he told me to take a couple more fish had 3 at that point and he told me to not do it again. That was in Washington state some of the most strict laws in the good ol USA also have found most don't come to your boat to check your license and catch so take what you can eat and process on the boat they seem to leave you alone. That's what a pressure cooker that can do up to fifteen psi is for. And in other places in the world if you catch and eat the local constabulary didnt even seem to bat an eyelash at me.


Last time I went fishing offshore, we were catching lots of Red Snappers that were under the legal limit. After we threw a couple back, the porpoises showed up and just massacred every undersize fish we threw back afterwards. We even pulled up our lines and ran at 30 knots for a half an hour to another spot, and the darn porpoises followed us to continue the feast.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Group9 said:


> Last time I went fishing offshore, we were catching lots of Red Snappers that were under the legal limit. After we threw a couple back, the porpoises showed up and just massacred every undersize fish we threw back afterwards. We even pulled up our lines and ran at 30 knots for a half an hour to another spot, and the darn porpoises followed us to continue the feast.


Yeah, many of the those bottom fish are usually 'done' by the time you haul them up quickly so throwing them back seems pointless. If it's close to shore at least you're feeding the eagles


----------

