# Marine Grade Plywood?



## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

So, if I''m building a plywood sailboat and sealing the whole thing with dynel and resin,...

What are the differences/advantages to marine grade plywood over normal plywood? Marine grade plywood pretty darn expensive stuff... is it really necessary?


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## RichardElliott (Sep 24, 2001)

Adhesive is the same as exterior grade. Therefore no difference in water resistance. The major difference is absence of core gaps in marine grade which could be important structurally.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I guess that the answer depends on how long you want the boat to last and whether you ever intend to hit something. 

Unlike 10 years ago when exterior plywood used the same gluing schedule as marine plywood, today, only some exterior grade plywoods use the same adhesive as marine grade plywood. Most exterior grade plywoods have gone to less expensive glue formulations and less stringent application schedules. 

More significantly marine grade plywood has fewer voids and patches than exterior grade materials. Marine grade plywood often uses better grade (more rot resistent) flitches and marine grade hardwood plywoods are often flat cut rather than rotary cut so are less likely to form checks and ''fish eyes''.

If you were building up multiple layers of cloth and epoxy on both the interior and exterior of the plywood, were sure that no fasteners were going to pierce your moisture proof membranes and you were never going to hit anything that might crush a void, then exterior grade plywood would be adequate. But in the real world, if you are building a boat that you would like to keep for a period of time, then you probably should go with marine grade materials. 

I still think that given your long term goals and your ideas about using a double hull, you would be way far ahead of the game to plank the boat with a rigid foam core and the glass over that core. In the big picture you will end up with a stronger, cheaper, more durable and lighter structure. 

Jeff


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## Silmaril (Feb 22, 2003)

For any marine structural hull component, the wise builder will settle for nothing less than Lloyds registered/approved BS 1088 Okoume plywood. It is stable, has met stringent manufacturing standards, and has an excellent strength to weight ratio. Both the wood used, along with the glues, are rot and mildew resistant, water, steam, and boiling water resistant. It curves easily to form a nice hull shape if handled correctly. I replaced a number of stringers and a couple of bulkheads with it on my sloop and was quite pleased with how easy it was to work. My sheets were made in Greece, and carried the Lloyd''s of London certificate of inspection. 3/4" 4'' X 8'' (or the metric equivilant) ran about $220/ea. delivered.


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## sneuman (Jan 28, 2003)

Marine grade is an absolute must. Jeff H, others right. The lack of voids is even more important than the adhesive. I have experience with (interior) bulkheads that were replaced with "normal" plywood. Not worth going into here, but the result in (admittedly humid) Hong Kong over a few years was unspeakable. Those bulkheads have now been replaced with what I hope to be a bullet-proof marine-grade sheathed in epoxy.


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

I appreciate the advice. $220 a sheet is WAY beyond my budget.

I''m thinking that I shall be making a smaller (20-25) ft daysailer which will be taken out of the water and stored in shelter after each use... and that I''m going to have to be practical and go with normal, exterior grade plywood. I shall have to look into the details of foam core construction as my knowledge level is too low to be useful on that one.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

First of all Marine Grade Fir A-B plywood is only about 15% higher in cost than Exterior Grade A-B Fir plywood. It is worth every bit of that 15% increas in price. The other part of this is that if you can''t afford the 15% I can''t imagine how you are going to be able to afford to build a whole boat. (You can price this stuff at Harbor Sales who carrries good quality materials at reasonable prices. http://www.harborsales.net/index.cfm )

The hull of a boat is roughly 20-25% of the overall cost of building a boat. A reasonable grade of 3/4" A-B fir exterior plywood for your purposes would be close to $100 per sheet. A small beamy boat like you are proposing will use 12-15 sheets (more or less depending on how beamy and how thick you decide to plank). That is roughly $1200-$1500 just for hull planking. Add in another $1,000 or so for glass, resin and fastenings. If that is 25% of the boat you are talking about spending something like $10,000 before you are done. 

There are a lot of very good boats out there for a lot less than $10,000.

Jeff


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## dman (Dec 25, 2004)

Vastbinder you are all over the map here and on previous posts.You have decided on just about every hull shape and construction there is,but you can only have 1 on 1 boat.There has been alot of discussion on materials and that information is dead on.The most important piece of information that you heard is Jeff-H "there are a lot of very good boats out there for a lot less than $10,000" Go and scribe this quote on your bedroom door so you will see it most every day.If you are worried about the price of plywood you better look at the bedroom door.EX.30 footPearson,diesel,a1 sails,good selection,roller furling.......Needed about 10 hours of deck work and a little fiberglass reinforcement (chainplates,rudder tube)6500 dollars and I still have it because I just do not want to sell it.My advice Go buy a boat and go sailing.You build boats when,You have too much money,too much time,and when you have too much money you get someone else to build it,and when you have too much time you go sailing.If you have a passion for building boats get a job at a boatyard,you will get paid real money and you will not be broke at payday.I know this sounds funny but don`t laugh.I am starting to sound negative on every post!


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

No worries! ;-)

Of course, I''m all over the map on design questions. I don''t plan on starting construction for several months so I''m looking at what styles are out there and what general info I can pick up on their performance characteristics.

Right now, I like the cape cod catboat style but have not tracked down specifics on it yet. 

One final note... For me, the construction process is almost as important as the boat itself. I REALLY like making things.

I also appreciate your advice about working at a boatyard and such. As a matter of fact, I did work at the Todd shipyard in Galveston Texas for awhile back in ''84. Not the same thing, but I have spent some time crawling around the insides of a large number of ships.

Like I said, I consider all the replies I get to be useful, even if the information is negative. I also know what you mean about the financial considerations of buying a small used sailboat... but in my case, I''m likely to get more joy out of building the boat than actually sailing it. (though I plan to do that too!)


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Dman, In fairness to Vastbinder,he seems to be sorting through this process in a very directed way. While I do not agree with many of his conclusions, I do think that he taking advise, weighing it and either accepting it or coming up with a basis for rejecting it. My reaction like yours makes sense when viewed with a preference toward getting out on the water quickly in a boatthat sails well. Vastbinder seems to have a different set of goals which very much values the design and construction process. 

In my experience, he is not alone when he says that he enjoys the idea of building a boat as much as he does sailing it. I have helped a number of people through boat building projects who knew less about sailing than Vastbinder. I have taught some of these people how to rig and sail the boats they built. I don''t think that what he is saying is inherently wrong even if it is a different thought process than you or I might chose for ourselves. 

Vastbinder, I was wondering whether you are thinking about actually designing this boat yourself or selecting an existing design to build?

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

Well Jeff... I suspect that I shall do the final design work myself, but that the design will be closely based on an existing boat. I don''t think I have anywhere near the expertise to redesign the wheel, just tweak it a bit to suit my uninformed ideas about sailing.

And yes, actually I do appreciate all the advice. I remember some sailing things from "days of old" as it were, and am picking up many bits of information from all the advice provided. I''ve picked up alot of the terminology and still have much to go... one in particular is "skeg hung rudder", which I haven''t gotten around to researching yet.

A couple of other considerations for me... I''m not totally clueless... just somewhat. ;-) I currently have a 14'' sailfish and know some basic sailing technique. I also currently have a 12 foot dinghy under construction in my garage. It''ll serve as an excellent training project and trial run for some of the contruction techniques that I''ll use on the larger boat.

Also, finally... am I in over my head with the idea of building a 20-25 foot boat? Most likely! (But that''s half the fun now, isn''t it!) ;-) Also, I''d like to note that most activities, like wiring, mechanics, wood construction, pouring cement, metal working, etc. are scary to contemplate when you don''t know what you''re doing, but none of it''s really all that difficult once you get into it. That is why I''m not really afraid of building a boat. It''s basic wood construction and some resin work (I''ll be relying on tried/true/and safe designs)

A catboat style boat could easily go up and down rivers, couldn''t it?... provided they''re not too tiny and shallow. Here in Michigan, I''m nowhere near the sea... so lakes and rivers will likely do it for me for at least a few years to come.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

"A catboat style boat could easily go up and down rivers, couldn''t it?..."

Like many of your questions that is a less than simple one. In a general sense, a well designed catboat could work reasonably well on a large-ish lake or wide river. I have added the modifiers because in a general sense, catboats do not go upwind very well and generally do not do all that well in light air. When you add the additional drag of heavy displacement and a full length keel, I would suggest that a catboat would be a poor choice. Here''s why I say that: 

River and lake sailing tends to involve a lot of upwind work, because the wind tends to bend down the long axis of a lake or river. Lake and river sailing tends to involve a lot of light air sailing, punctuated by bits of very heavy stuff often in very confined quarters. 

Because a catboat is stuck with a single sail, and because it is a tricky design expercise to design that sail so that it can be easy to reef and still maintain a balanced helm, it is harder to design a catboat that has enough sail area for light air and yet is not overpowered in a breeze. A boat that does not have good light air ability will miss a lot of otherwise pleasant sailing days which given the short sailing season in Michigan could be a real problem. At the other end of the wind range, because of the confined nature of most river sailing, being able to control the boat in a breeze becomes especially important. 

In that regard, a more moderate design, with a sloop rig and a lighter displacement to improve your ability to sail in lighter air and upwind probably will work better for you than a catboat.

"Also, finally... am I in over my head with the idea of building a 20-25 foot boat? "

I don''t think that it is for any of us to say whether you are in over your head. I have been involved with a lot of boat building and boat restoring projects over the years and frankly it is never easy to predict who will succeed and who will not, especially without having met the person. 

I am not sure that this is the proper forum for this kind of discussion. Please feel free to email me directly if you would prefer. 

Regards,

Jeff


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

No Worries! The "in over my head" comment was more in a rhetorical nature. Of course I''m in over my head, but I don''t really care. Building things is fun!

I''ll have to spend some time looking at various small boat designs to settle on one. Mainly, I''m trying to go for versatile. I want to be able to sail Lake Michigan and perhaps the other great lakes... but I want to be able to come into shore too. As such, I''ll spend some time comparing designs until I think I''ve got the right one. 

Thanks for all the help! ;-)


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Just to throw out some ideas for consideration. Given that you are lake and river sailing you might take a look at the work of Antonio Dias. Tony is an old friend and a really wonderful designer. For some reason his website is not up at the moment but he has designed some wonderful small and traditional cruisers that offer a nice mix of seaworthiness and performance. I have sailed on a number of his designs and they have proven to be very good boats.


Another thought would be to look at Dudley Dix''s design for the marconi rigged Cape Henry 21. http://www.dixdesign.com/ch21.htm

This is a very clever 21 footer designed for plywood construction.

If you were interested in a more modern interpretation of a small cruiser, this one has a daggerboard with a bulb for greater seaworthiness, you might look at Dudley Dix''s Didi 26 design. http://www.dixdesign.com/26didi.htm

Jeff


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## sneuman (Jan 28, 2003)

That Cape Henry is a cute little boat!

I have to agree with Vasbinder (and Jeff_H) here. As stated before, I am only a "tinkerer" at this stage - replacing bulkheads, redoing decks, repairing wooden mast, etc. on a 28ft sloop. BUT I completely sympathize with the joy derived from these exercises and would love to build a small boat myself someday. I frequently get dock mates who gaze in on me when I''m working on the boat who clearly don''t "get it." There''s sort of a grudging admiration, but if sailing meant working on a boat, they would have no interest. Whatever Vastbinder decides, best of luck to him. BUT, he SHOULD spend the extra money for marine-grade ply!


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## sneuman (Jan 28, 2003)

Actually, just thinking more about this: Since you seem to now be leaning toward a boat for gunkholing around lakes and rivers, you''ll want to find a way to make her bottom bullet-proof (hey, no laughing). From my days canoeing the rivers of the Midwest, I can attest that you will encounter any number of deadheads, rocks and other obstructions which will prove damaging or deadly to a plywood boat. Maybe there''s a way of sheathing in aluminum?? Something to think about anyway.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

neuman has a good point. That said, it might be stronger, cheaper and easier to simply vaccuum bag a couple layers of kevlar over the bottom. Just a thought.

Jeff


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

Jeff, I''ll look at the dix boats shortly...

Wish I could afford the marine grade plywood, but not likely to happen for me.

Now, some thoughts...

Sounds like I could retain my double hull idea and perhaps reduce the weight if I went to 2 layers of ply for the outer hull and a single layer for the inside layer.

I had considered the problem of running up on a snag/rock, whatever... I suppose I could sheath the bottom in light gauge steel... maybe 18 gauge. Seeing as the boat would come out of the water after each use, touching up the bottom paint to keep the steel safe from the water would be no big deal and the steel would also toughen up the lower hull mitigating the reduction of the outer hull to 1/2 inch total ply.

I''m guessing the steel would go on the outside of the resin layer to protect everything under it. The steel layer would only add a couple hundred pounds at most as 18 gauge is pretty light stuff, but likely more than enough to repel minor collision punctures.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Again if you can''t afford the marine grade plywood, you can''t afford to build this boat. If you assume that in your current configuration the boat will have 24 sheets of 1/4" plywood, the cost difference between using marine plywood and exterior plywood of equal species and thickness would be roughly $200 for the whole boat. Frankly, you cannot afford NOT to use marine plywood. 

The 18 gauge steel idea makes absolutely no sense at all. 18 gauge steel would add cost, would add a lot of weight, would be next to imposible to bond without creating a whole bunch of colateral issues and would not really help with impact at all. I think from an impact resitance, durability, construction time, and cost standpoint that you would be far and away ahead of the game looking at a vinylester- directional fiberglass or even a kevlar sheathing solution. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

Having made fairly extensive use of sheet metal for other things, I can say that the cost and weight issues would be insignificant. However, if the protection offered would be so slight, seems like it''d not be worth the bother.

Easy to do, low in cost, low in weight... but if of no real protective value, then no point worrying about it.


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## windship (May 4, 2002)

To me, it seems that "if you can''t afford the materials then you can''t afford to build this boat". and if this is true, how are you going to afford other marine items.
Are you going to use plastic cleats instead of metal ones? Are you going to use cotton line made for hanging your pants on instead of the proper cordage? Ete, etc.
Do some research then take the money you have and buy an existing, already built, brand name sailboat and go sailing.

Dennis


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

Thanks for the advice windship... but in my case the building is more important than the sailing. I''m weird that way.

I''ll have to research on the price of marine grade plywood... but quite simply, if it''s $200 a sheet, then it''s a no go for me. I''ll end up using less expensive materials and compensating as best I can. If the boat doesn''t last me 20 years, then so be it. I''ll build another. Probably build another anyway... just for giggles!

I''m not starting until next spring/summer, so no hurry. I have plenty of time to look at designs and research materials. There''s no need to rush matters.

Through these discussions, I''ve gotten a much closer idea of what I''m interested in based on the uses I plan on making of the boat in question. I''ve found it very useful. My initial ideas have undergone extensive revision... I''ve been given some wonderful ideas to work with... and I''ve refined my ideas of the boats purpose. Neat stuff and great progress being made. 

I''m not going for a "cross the Atlantic", "weather any storm", etc. etc. I''d be far more likely to want a water-born RV, with a fairly shallow draft and perhaps the ability to be outright beached if need be. I strongly suspect much of my sailing will be done in sight of shore most of the time. Not 5 feet from the beach, mind you... but not 20 miles out either. Alot of interesting things to see... but not if you''re too far away to see them... and not if your boat can''t go in close if need be.

I''m getting there... and I''m sure I''ll be bothering this forum with many largely stupid questions in the future.


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

Perhaps I''ve not been looking in the right place... but what I''ve found so far is that I can get decent quality exterior grade plywood 4''x 8'' 1/4 inch thickness for about $10 a sheet.

So far, the cheapest, bottom of the line marine grade ply in the same thickness has been $62 per sheet then you''d have to add substantial shipping costs too.

Also, I''ll note that I''ve found many descriptions of successful use of exterior grade plywood in home made boats of all shapes and sizes.

At this point, I''m inclined heavily toward the exterior grade plywood due to cost concerns... also, the use of non-marine ply doesn''t seem to have slowed many others down. 

Perhaps I will yet find an inexpensive source for marine ply.

What price per sheet of 1/4 inch thickness should one expect to pay? Perhaps I''ve only hit high-priced websites?


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## dman (Dec 25, 2004)

Windship It`s like a comedy of sorts.We seem to go through one of these posts every few months.The people looking for advice have it all figured out.Vastbinder after you have built the boat the real money comes in.The only thing that you will learn is that everything is expensive and you will be broke.You better get at least 2 more jobs and then you won`t even have time to build anything.I won`t talk you off the ledge anymore.JUMP.Do it all up and get back to us with some pics.


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

Didn''t know you could post pics here...
we''ll see..

Of course you have the same thread every few months. You get new folks who didn''t see it last go through and they have some of the same questions... and need the same answers.
It''s the nature of these type of boards.

There is a tremendous amount of money to be saved when one is willing to do the work themselves. I am quite familiar with this seeing as I''m an artisan of sorts (I''ve made middle ages armour as a business in the past), and I''ve mixed, poured, and finished my own concrete (sidewalks and such), and any number of other projects.

Most people will not do these things or even have any desire to do so... but it is a simple fact that in most cases, the materials are only about 10% or less of the total cost of a finished item. IF one is willing to work and learn, one can do things on a much tighter budget.

If I can post pics here, I''d be happy to, though I will note that, as I said, I''m not looking to start this project until next year. I appreciate all the comments and here''s hoping next year goes well for me.


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## dman (Dec 25, 2004)

Quote "Of course you have the same thread every few months. You get new folks who didn''t see it last go through and they have some of the same questions... and need the same answers. It''s the nature of these type of boards" It is the nature of inexperienced people not to listen to the advice that more experienced people are giving that seems to be happening more often than not.IMHO people that build/design sailboats should sail first,it only makes sense,but when you see poorly designed boats it makes you wonder.There are boat hulls laying around from coast to coast and this should be a clue as well.Some people build for ego others for a form of meditation.....etc.The bottom line is that it is the most expensive way to go and if you can afford to throw away many thousands of dollars in your pursuit than boatbuilding is for you.You may be the greatist artisan ,working with concrete....but by your own admission you are no boatbuilder/designer.Thinking one relates to the other is apples to oranges.I am not telling you to stay away from boatbuilding if you are determined,however,you have years of research to do on costs,construction.....and when you are done you will have the money for your marine plywood which any novice builder would use. Good luck with your studies


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

dman, I beleive we shall have to agree to disagree.

A few note applicable to my particular case:
I don''t intend to design the boat from scratch, only to personalize an existing "tried and true" design;
My experience working with materials goes far beyond concrete... the lamination of plywood into specific curves and shaped happens to be one such area;
and
Costs are greatly different if one doesn''t buy all their materials as finished products from the boating store.

Good Sir, your''s is the voice of negativity which turns one away with "I can''t". Nothing ever came of such.

Thank you for your advice. I choose to disagree in many ways.

Happy Sailing to you!


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## dman (Dec 25, 2004)

I`m not looking to start an argument Vastbinder but take it from me I`ve been there.There is a great difference in negativity and reality.I will give you an example of one such project.I bought a hull and a bunch of gear for 75k,I had 300K worth the rceipts.I thought I was doing alright on that deal and then spent another 40k on this and that.The boat was no where near finnished when my finaces started to become taxed.I then sold the boat for approx. 60K to try and wash my hands from the whole mess.Being a journeyman machinist and owning a machineshop,as well as having a steel yacht,I will guarantee you that there is nothing I can`t build or weld out of metal.This is where the problems arise(ignorance to the lack of general knowledge of marine expenses) I know this project you are taking on is far less than this but the same rules apply.I never say "i can`t" do most things but I can`t afford to waste anymore more money messing with boats.We have come full circle on this thread where you are now going back to construction grade plywood,so what have you learned?Do you want to put a boat together with your name on it,and be poorly constructed?There is nothing worse no matter what it is having your name come up in a conversation saying what you have or had built is trash.For certain things it is better to not have tried,than to have tried and failed.I might have a reason for the negativity(thousands of dollars down the drain) and that money could of been much better spent on family.It is one thing to spend your time doing something you like but going broke doing it is quite another and then to have your creation considered worthless by the boat buying public should you choose to sell it.BTW look through ebay with reguards to homebuilt boats,it`s a firesale.It`s been a long time since my boating disaster and my figures are probably off somewhat on my boat`s prices however it`s close enough for someone to shake their head.


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

dman...

No argument and no hard feeling on my end. I really DO appreciate the advice you and others have given me.

Sorry to hear about the troubles you had with boat building.

I can''t begin to get into that kind of trouble as I don''t begin to have that kind of money. I will be left with buying the best grade of plywood I can find in my price range. Is it the best idea... likely not, but it''s what I can work with.

Regards the boat... it''ll be almost a replica of a time honored and extensively used design, so it''ll sail... maybe not the best, but it''ll sail. If it doesn''t last more than a season... it wouldn''t be that big an expense or bother for me to strip the entire hull off and put on a new one.

If all else fails, I''ll stick pontoons under it and float away just like that on the SS Junk-Heap! ;-) (and don''t think I wouldn''t do it either!)

I''m doing this for fun and hopefully to get to do some fairly minor sailing. So, for me, it doesn''t have to be perfect or last forever.

Once again, and I stress... I DO appreciate AND listen to the advice you guys give. I just don''t have the finances to apply all of it, so I plan to do the best I can with what''s available.

Good Luck! and really, no argument here... no hard feelings... 

I''ll try to share pictures if it''s possible next year. This year there''s the "slap-together" dinghy currently in progress. (the dinghy is half for fun and half to test the materials and construction techniques)

Lastly... on an unrelated note: dman, isn''t mild steel just the most wonderful stuff (other than rusting)? I mean, with some judicious hammering, welding, and rivetting, you can get it to do just darn near anything you want! (I''ve been an armourer for about 20 years now)

Happy Days and Good Sailing!


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## windship (May 4, 2002)

Vastbinder,
Don''t know why people ask for advise when they know they''ll not except it or build boats the way you describe but hey, good luck to you and remember, the pictures of the boat after she is built will preferably be of her floating. 
In the water.

Dennis


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

windship/Dennis

No worries. I ask for advice in an effort to increase my understanding of best practices. If I had the money to carry through on all that has been offered, I would. Since I cannot though, I will use all the advice given to do the best I can with what I have available.

I have picked up many valuable tips from the advice given... and though I cannot apply it all due to circumstances, I will apply what I can.

Believe it or not, the few threads I have run have been very useful to me. I have refined the size and type of boat I will build. I have refined many of the basic structural specs. I have even had a chance to refine my initial desires on what I intend to do with the boat.

It''s all been VERY useful and I am not disregarding the advice I''ve been given at all. I''ve been compiling it and will apply as much as I am able (within my financial restrictions).

You guys have the practical knowledge that I lack. That is why I ask.

I am unable to apply all the advice given and must make certain compromises. That is why I appear to ignore (but I really AM listening)

I don''t know if I can post pictures here... I will if I can or will make them generally available if I can''t. The first pics will be of the dinghy though... and I fear it will frighten many of you! ;-)

Thanks again for the advice, and I really AM listening.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Hi Vastbinder,

I am not sure where you are finding a suitable grade of 1/4" exterior plywood for $10.00 per 4x8 sheet. Minimally you will need to look for a A-B grade Exterior grade plywood. A-B will contain some non-organic fillers and so will not seal as well as is desirable. I did a quick search around here and the cheapest 1/4" A-B exterior that I could find was over $30 per panel. The only 1/4" A-B ply that I could find under $30.00 per sheet was graded as exposure 1 plywood which is not the same as Exterior grade and which would be totally unsuitable. I could also find some one side sanded exterior grade A-C stuff down under $20 but AC will not stand up to the bending involved in planking a boat. Frankly, the glue line between the two courses of 1/4" plywood will cost way more than the difference in price between exterior and Marine grade ply. I would suggest that you use 1/2 marine grade below the waterline at least, and then do the topsides in 1/2 exterior. The savings in laminating the sheets of 1/4" plywood would pay the difference. 

Jeff

BTW What do you wish to be called?


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

Thank you for asking... Scott is my first name.

I have several months to survey my local area to make sure I get suitable plywood. If I can find marine plywood in my price range, of course that''d by my first choice. It''s when I see the $200 a sheet stuff, that''s something too rich for my blood.

The reason for the 1/4 inch is that I''ve found that curving 1/2 inch ply is very stressful on the wood and it tries really hard to snap back to it''s original shape... which to me is a structural weakness. When one laminates 2 1/4 inch sheets, they bend easily to the desired shape and after the glue dries, they are permanently bonded into that shape... they will not attempt to spring back to flat. Yes, using the glue is a bit more expensive and work intensive, but the end result is better. (of course, in this case, one would make sure to use an entirely waterproof glue).

Loved the little 18'' boat by Antonio Dios? Nifty thing which I imagine would make a wonderful all-purpose lake boat for multiple persons (family boat)


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Hi Scott,

Tony is an old friend of mine. We met probably 15 years ago at a small boat festival. He is really blessed with that rare combination of an artist''s eye and the ability to deal with the complex technology involved in designing and building boats. (Tony is that rare designer who has both designed and built boats with his own hands and so understands the impact of a design decision on the poor bloke that has to actually build what was drawn.)

Tony and I have enjoyed many a happy hour in lively discussion. Our ideas about yacht design come from very different directions. Sometimes our ideas are very close and at other times they represent the opposite ends of the spectrum. I was honored to be included in Tony''s book, ''Designer and Client'', as one of the clients. The chapter for better or worse reflects some of our differences in design philosophy. For many years Tony would send me his ''works in progress'' so that we could kick around ideas but we have not been doing that for some time now. 

He has a number of stock plans that might suit your objects and certainly would be an excellent source to turn to for a quality design. 

Regards,
Jeff


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

Jeff,

Actually, at this point, I''m considering going with some advice I was given awhile back and purchasing the plans for a small boat something like the 18 footer currently on Tony''s webpage.

Having the actual layout and dimensions would likely be so much easier for me than having to do some educated guessing. The results would likely be sooo much better.

Though, if I recall correctly, there are some free wooden boat plans out there... some of which I took the time to copy. 

By spring, I should have things all prepared and worked out! Now I just need to track down a trailer to get my sailfish to water and I''m all set ;-)

Scott


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Hi Scott,

Late lunch today......There are a variety of boat designs in the ''public domain''. Most of these are older designs from the 1940''s through 1960''s that were published in now defunct magazines. Some of these were reasonably good designs, but many were not very good designs even by the standard of their day and are very poor designs when viewed by today''s standards.

I think that you may be referring to Svensens free boat plans. http://www.svensons.com/boat/

I find most of the boats on that site not all that great a design. One design that does appeal to me is the 22 foot sharpie, ''Southwind'', although I suspect it would not be the most idiot proof boat to sail. 

Here is another site with a bunch of older plans. I thought that ''Coot'' was a pretty neat little boat. 
http://hometown.aol.com/polysail/HTML/oldboats.htm

In a similar veign, you might see if you can find a public domain set of drawings for Commodore Ralph Munroe''s ''Lifeboat Sharpie Egret''. This has always seemed to be a neat design. WoodenBoat magazine sells a nice set of proprietary drawinsg for the Egret.

In a more modern veign I thought that this was a very nice 26 footer for which very detailed free plans were available. http://www.boatdesign.net/nyd/K800/

BTW I happened onto the Boat Builder Central site: http://plywood.e-boat.net/categories.php

They have 1/4" marine grade Meranti for $27 per sheet. In other words that would add roughly $120 to the project over non-marine ext fir plywood. I really do not see how you can decide not to use marine ply when you consider the over cost and time involved in your project. 

Regards,
Jeff


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

Jeff, 

Thanks for the leads on boat designs. I shall have to look through them as time permits and when I select one, I''ll likely ask for opinions on it.

If the boat I choose is small enough and the marine ply available at a price I can manage, I certainly intend to have the good sense to use it! ;-)

Thanks greatly for the help... and I''ll let you know when a design is selected so I can get some feedback on my choice.

Scott


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

OK, yeah, it''s the svensons site that I''ve been to before.

I had copied out both the starlight and the moonlight plans. Neat site!


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

On the svensons page, would anyone care to express opinions on the Blue Moon, Gypsy, and Star-lite designs... with a thought to possibly using the Blue Moon as a starter boat since it''s smaller and I''m guessing easier to handle for a single person.

Scott


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I would say that all three of these designs are very dated and would take a lot of effort to build only to produce very mediocre boats. Of the pocket cruisers on the Svensen site, the one that looks most like a decent boat that would be reasonably easy to build is the 22 foot sharpie called the Southwind (labled ''south'' in their link). This is a pretty traditional sharpie design. 

Jeff


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

Has sailing tech changed so much in the last 60 years or were these just crappy boats to begin with?

Personally, I always thought the Gypsy design was kinda cute if slow... but I''ve been extensively lectured on the evils of full-keel boats.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

"Has sailing tech changed so much in the last 60 years or were these just crappy boats to begin with?"

At some level the answer is ''yes'' to both of these. Hull forms and rigs and evolved dramatically in ways that improve seaworthiness, ease of handling, motion comfort, and performance. BUT beyond that, these were really poor designs for their day.

The better D.I.Y. designs of that era came from magazines like ''Rudder'' and ''Field and Stream''. These magazines published designs ranging in quality from amazingly good to pretty bizarre. Many of the designs in these magazines came from the boards of designers of the caliber of Atkins, Crocker, John Hanna, Winslow Warner, Fredrick Geiger, Clinton Crane, Starling Burgess, and L.F.Herreshoff. 

But most of the designs on the Svensen site are ''public domain'' designs that were prepared by unknown designers. The price of drawings are cheap compared to the hard costs of building a boat. It really makes sense to pick a good design even if you have to pay for it. 

That said there are a bunch of good designs out there for free or nearly free it is just a matter of sorting them out. 

Jeff


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## Vastbinder (Sep 10, 2004)

Well, for whatever it''s worth, I think I have selected a first design. The one I intend to build this summer is the "Breeze Baby" from the svenson''s site.

It''s likely a crappy little boat... in fact, it''s little more than a rowboat with a sail. However, it appears to be very simple, has more seating and offers a dryer ride than my sailfish and even if it doesn''t last 10 years, it might be a good way to "get my feet wet" so to speak... without it being a large project. 

I figure that if I start out with a small, simple project like this one, then over the winter and next spring, perhaps I''ll have a better notion of what I''m looking at with a bigger project.


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