# Amsteel lifelines--why is a lashing needed?



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

a. To cut it away to get an MOB on deck.

If there are sufficient gates, this is not applicable.

b. To apply tension, understanding that we only mean to remove all slack; actual tension would bend the stanchions inward.

The pelican hooks remove some slack. The rest can be adjusted out by not using brommel splices at both ends. Instead, finish one end as a whoopee sling, pulling the slack out and whipping down the tail. In this way the lashing is eliminated and the line can be easily adjusted at any time. So long as the tail is whipped down, it cannot self-adjust and is just as strong as a splice (it is simply a bury splice with the tail exposed) so long as the bury is the correct length.

Seems cleaner, easier to fit and easier to service (either to adjust or un-splice, perhaps to re-fit chafing gear).


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Lashings aren't required, but a whoopie splice isn't suitable. It is not as strong as a tapered bury splice or a double brummel, and can pull out in the right conditions. They are fine for some things, but not sutable for lifelines. 

I favor lashings because they are easy and cheap, savings a lot of money on end fittings for very little trade off. But I know some who insist on gates, and there is a perfectly sutable gate plus eye that Johnson makes for about $100.


----------



## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

If the lifelines are well oversized then breaking won't really be an issue. I agree with Stumble, the whoopie sling will break where the bury exits the core.


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

pdqaltair said:


> a. To cut it away to get an MOB on deck.
> 
> If there are sufficient gates, this is not applicable.
> 
> ...


There are two other reasons not listed in your two:
1) You can use brummel splices everywhere. Without the lashing you can only use a brummel splice on one side, the other can just a stiched tail bury. It's a lot faster for me to do a brummel then a stitched tail bury.

2) Fit only needs to be close, not perfect. The lashing can be used for surplus.

I have 4 lifelines (2 per side) and did one of them without lashings. I did the other 3 with lashings to save time. With semi-accurate measuring I was able to do all of the splicing at home, then just lash and installed them on the boat.

My lashings (and most recommended) were doing with a dyneema core line, so I'm not sure that they are really that much easier to cut in an emergency.

Pelican hooks are expensive, so I don't have multiple sets of hooks.


----------



## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Lashings removing slack is a good idea, at least for me. In addition to the points above: I'll be the first to admit I am not a splicing pro, but my lifelines (New England Ropes WR2) loosened a bit in the first month. My theory is the cover - although tight when milked on - was providing the initial tension on the line, instead of the core, As the cover eased out a little across the length, I got maybe 1/2" on a 15' span.


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Paul,

What you are dealing with is called constructional stretch, and is just the nature of any braided line. When they are put into service it takes a while for all the loose fibers to get pulled into line, and the manufacturing weave to tighten up a little. It has little to do with the nature of double braids, just line in general. 

I am curious why you guys went with covered lines tho. There isn't a real need for it, and single braid is much cheaper.


----------



## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Thanks Stumble.

I went with WR2 for a number of reasons:

1) Abrasion resistance
2) UV protection (I am in CA)
3) Appearance

And to some extend, I am a bit conservative so having a cover seemed like a good idea. I got a sample of the product, and was very impressed by the look and feel of it, and thought the higher cost was worth the perceived benefits. A professional installer would probably have more confidence in amsteel alone.


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Good feedback.

a. Brommel splices can be tied without both ends available. The method is probably faster on a long line. Google it. Amsteel is child's play to splice.

b. Breaking. The weakens the line about 40% from the references I found; yup, that's serious. I would use 1/4" Amsteel for protection from UV and in any event line very rarely breaks around knots and splices, they more often break due to chafe, which will not be at the splice. The weakest spot might still be a stanchion pass-through or an attachment. This is something we allow for. But we we would need a special reason.

c. Pull-out. Not if the tail is whipped down and the bury is the same. Slightly longer bury is certainly practical. Any bury-only splice (Amsteel or polyester) can pull out if not lock stitched or whipped; that is the reason for the brommel lock; it does not add strength.

d. Gates are required if not all of the crew is athletic. I commonly take passengers over 80 and disabled. Correct, they are simple to insert where needed. In our case, we have 6 gates: fore and aft and one at each transom (cat).

e. Cover. My understanding is that over sized Amsteel will offer longer service life and better economy than the alternatives and I think I am not alone. Since the stanchion pass throughs are sized to pass 3/8" line, I will also add fiber chafe guards as needed, probably Spectra.

----

Yup, not a good idea. But there may be an application somewhere. That's why we ask around.


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Pdq,

Just a quick FYI. Dyneema and Spectra are the same thing. Spectra is just a trade name for sales in North America while Dyneema is used everywhere else. It's all made by the same company with the same formula. 

Since dyneema is both the most abrasion resistant line, and the most UV stable, the best chaff guard for dyneema is actually just more dyneema. You can certainly add chaff guards to dyneema lifelines, but you are better off just using larger dyneema in the first place. It isn't much more expensive and it will be a lot stronger. 

The best alternative to adding a brummel splice on either end for lifelines is just to do a tapered bury splice then lockstitch it. I actually use 50lbs test dyneema fishing line for the stitching thread, which makes it pretty much immune to UV, and is pretty easy to work with. It is a little slippery, so I do extra locks, but the principle is the same.


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

pdqaltair said:


> Good feedback.
> 
> a. Brommel splices can be tied without both ends available. The method is probably faster on a long line. Google it. Amsteel is child's play to splice.


Not around an object (like the bail on a pulpit) that is being spliced into the line. That is why I said you can only do both ends if you use a lashing. One end goes around the pelican hook, the other end goes around the bail on the pulpit.

I've done both forms of the Brummel splice many times and do the "quick" version when I don't need to capture something in the splice.


----------



## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Stumble said:


> Pdq,
> 
> Just a quick FYI. Dyneema and Spectra are the same thing. Spectra is just a trade name for sales in North America while Dyneema is used everywhere else. It's all made by the same company with the same formula.


Fyi Spectra and Dyneema are not the same and made by several different companies. DSM holds the patents on Dyneema and Spectra is made by Novabraid and is a trade mark of honeywell international. the products are similar but not the same product. each manufacturer has a slightly different formulas and there are different product lines made by many manufactures. Samson, Maffioli and New England rope uses Dyneema fibers. Cajun rope, Yale cordage and Novabraid use Spectra fibers.


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

You learn something every day. I actually went back and looked this up, and while I found a number of sources that indicate they are the same, when I dug deeper as you said they are slightly different chemically and were developed independently. 

Thanks Overboard, and PDQ I owe you an apology.


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Stumble said:


> ... Since dyneema is both the most abrasion resistant line, and the most UV stable, the best chaff guard for dyneema is actually just more dyneema. You can certainly add chaff guards to dyneema lifelines, but you are better off just using larger dyneema in the first place. It isn't much more expensive and it will be a lot stronger.


I think this is not quite true.

If the chafe guard is separate from the line, the guard tends to hook on any sharp spots and hold still relative to them, while the line can still run inside, seeing only the smooth inner side of the chafe guard. Thus simple tubular nylon webbing can last for years and years; it doesn't wear on the outside because it is not moving, and the line doesn't wear on the inside because there is nothing rough.

That has been my experience.

---

I understand that a brommel won't work around an object; I read that post too quickly. I guess it didn't make sense to me that one would splice around both ends without a lashing in the system.


----------



## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> I think this is not quite true.
> 
> If the chafe guard is separate from the line, the guard tends to hook on any sharp spots and hold still relative to them, while the line can still run inside, seeing only the smooth inner side of the chafe guard. Thus simple tubular nylon webbing can last for years and years; it doesn't wear on the outside because it is not moving, and the line doesn't wear on the inside because there is nothing rough.
> 
> ...


Chafe sleeve should be fastened to the line and the line should not move inside the chafe protection or the line will chafe. and Nylon webbing is the worst thing for UV. nylon will become abrasive when effected with UV/ dried salt and will chafe the line sliding thru it


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

My stanchions have a welded and countersunk sleeve that is as smooth as any fairlead on the boat 

On the other hand most stanchions I do see have a hole drilled with a marginal cleanup job


----------



## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

i know this is a "duh", but amsteel/dyeema does not like sharp bends. Use a thimble.

I found this article useful:
http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/lifelines.pdf


----------



## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

The reason WR2 was developed is b/c there was a demand to use dyneema in racing. Which explains the sizes. The chafe guard (cover) is there to protect the load bearing core, same as any other line. The reason you just don't "get a bigger line" is weight, cost, and fitting them through stanchions. Also, if you damage a single braid, you need to replace it. If you damage the chafe protection, you can just replace that. 

This is why big boats put chafe guard on their halyards, a $600 halyard is pricey, $50 to change out some chafe guard is a deal. 

IMO, the WR2 looks very good and will be popular on a lot of luxury yachts in the future.


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

overbored said:


> Chafe sleeve should be fastened to the line and the line should not move inside the chafe protection or the line will chafe. and Nylon webbing is the worst thing for UV. nylon will become abrasive when effected with UV/ dried salt and will chafe the line sliding thru it


Sorry, but 30 years says you're not right about the movement. I've had nylon chafe gear on mooring lines (a MUCH tougher service) last over 15 years with the line inside still like new. The gear and the line in the sun were trashed.

a. The inside of the nylon is not UV affected. Still smooth as a baby's bottom after 15 years.
b. Salt is washed out by rain. Didn't seem to be a functional problem for chafe gear. I think this is a more serious issue inside highly loaded lines, between fibers, but external abration is less fussy.

Nylon was only an example, proving the point that it is the installation as much as the material. Of course it is a cheaper choise.


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Alex W said:


> Not around an object (like the bail on a pulpit) that is being spliced into the line. That is why I said you can only do both ends if you use a lashing. One end goes around the pelican hook, the other end goes around the bail on the pulpit.


Not that I intend to do this, but...

Yes, you can go around an object such as a pelican hook with a lugage tag. Some loss in strength. Folks do it all the time with pre-spliced halyards.

Most likely I'll just re-use the turnbuckles. I see no evidence they are worn, corroded or cracked. Since the existing forward gates are integral with them, easy enough.


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

pdqaltair said:


> Not that I intend to do this, but...
> 
> Yes, you can go around an object such as a pelican hook with a lugage tag. Some loss in strength. Folks do it all the time with pre-spliced halyards.


You might have a problem fitting the hardware that is on the other end of the lifeline through the stanchions.



pdqaltair said:


> Most likely I'll just re-use the turnbuckles. I see no evidence they are worn, corroded or cracked. Since the existing forward gates are integral with them, easy enough.


The CS Johnson pelican hooks with turnbuckles that are made for dyneema lifelines have nice extra long adjustable sections. My old lifeline hardware was pretty shot, so it was worth replacing them.


----------



## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> Sorry, but 30 years says you're not right about the movement. I've had nylon chafe gear on mooring lines (a MUCH tougher service) last over 15 years with the line inside still like new. The gear and the line in the sun were trashed.
> 
> a. The inside of the nylon is not UV affected. Still smooth as a baby's bottom after 15 years.
> b. Salt is washed out by rain. Didn't seem to be a functional problem for chafe gear. I think this is a more serious issue inside highly loaded lines, between fibers, but external abration is less fussy.
> ...


You have experience with dyneema mooring lines in nylon chafe sleeve? nylon will work on most mooring line but not good on dyneema. I have experience with dyneema life lines in nylon sleeve and it did not work, the nylon caused the dyneema to chafe badly and the problem was fixed by using dyneema chafe sleeve stitched and wiped to the life line. the stanchion is smooth on the inside and I think the line would have be better off with no sleeve. Here the sun ate up the nylon in less then 2 years, we do not get many clouds and it does not rain here very often.


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

overbored said:


> You have experience with dyneema mooring lines in nylon chafe sleeve? nylon will work on most mooring line but not good on dyneema. I have experience with dyneema life lines in nylon sleeve and it did not work, the nylon caused the dyneema to chafe badly and the problem was fixed by using dyneema chafe sleeve stitched and wiped to the life line. the stanchion is smooth on the inside and I think the line would have be better off with no sleeve. Here the sun ate up the nylon in less then 2 years, we do not get many clouds and it does not rain here very often.


Not as much, but yes. We use Dymeena to moor mixers in a waste water treatment system (the fact that it floats made it a great replacement for steel cable) with nylon chafe gear (cheap) where it passes over the banks. Not saltwater, but I certainly have not seen abrasion in the gear. Thanks for the heads-up. I'll watch.

What did you use for line and what for a nylon sleave? Perhaps one of these was different and was the challenge.


----------



## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

I have been reading a bit on chafe gear and I think the problem is that the Dyneema did not like sliding in the nylon webbing after the sun got to the nylon and made it abrasive. chafe gear should be fastened to the line it is protecting. These life lines get used to support the weight of several people as they hang over the rail. ever since we attached the Dyneema sleeve to the line there is no chafing on the smooth stainless


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I used vinyl tubing as the chafe guard in my stanchions. It is cheap, soft (so it can't cut the dyneema), and easy to replace should it chafe on it's own.

I got the suggestion from one of the "how to" articles on making dyneema lifelines.


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Alex,

The problem with tubing is that as the line stretches inside it there is a tremendous amount of friction between the line and the tubing, and since the tube does a great job of keeping wind and water away from the line there is no good way to cool it off. This is more a problem with nylon lines, but not unheard of for dyneema too. 

Frankly I just use more dyneema as chaff guards when I need to. Just cut some extra from the same line you are protecting and pull the lifeline thru it. A quick whip on either side (or a taper if you like), and you have an integral chaff cover in seconds. And since dyneema is the most chaff resistant and UV stable line on the market, why would you use anything else? It is also a slippery as Teflon so where other lines might have friction issues it is rarely a problem with dyneema. 


Btw the only time I have seen significant abrasion issues with dyneema was on a big boat cruising spinnaker on a long offshore passage. We couldn't keep the tack line from rubbing on the anchor roller, and every few hours it would pop. So I made a tripple abrasion guard, first was some 3/8 load bearing line, then a 3/8 spliced cover, then a 1/2" spliced cover. It was fat and ugly looking but it worked. We finished with 36 hours on the line with no more breaking.... But it did polish up the bow roller.


----------



## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Stumble, if you ever see that issue happening again, just use DCS from NER. I have 300' of it if you need some in there 'medium' size.


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Stumble said:


> The problem with tubing is that as the line stretches inside it there is a tremendous amount of friction between the line and the tubing, and since the tube does a great job of keeping wind and water away from the line there is no good way to cool it off.


I guess I wasn't clear enough.

My sections of tubing are 1" to 1.25" long. They only go around the dyneema where it passes through the stanchion (which is 1" in diameter). The line is not covered from end to end.

Based on how easily the line can slip through the tubing I don't think there is very much friction.


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

zz4gta said:


> Stumble, if you ever see that issue happening again, just use DCS from NER. I have 300' of it if you need some in there 'medium' size.


I have seen this but never played with it. I appreciate the better weave for abrasion resistance, but just haven't seen it as worthwhile. I see so little abrasion in dyneema as is, I just don't see going to a special cover just for it.

That being said if I knew something was going to see massive abrasion I would probably investigate it more, but then I would first try and reduce the abrasion.

The asym tack was fixed after we got home. It just took one large block we didn't have onboard.


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Stumble said:


> Alex,
> 
> The problem with tubing is that as the line stretches inside it there is a tremendous amount of friction between the line and the tubing, and since the tube does a great job of keeping wind and water away from the line there is no good way to cool it off. This is more a problem with nylon lines, but not unheard of for dyneema too....


Perhaps on a tug line or some extreamly loaded genoa sheet, but heating is irrelevalt to this discussion for 2 reasons:

1. This effect is only applicable to nylon lines over aout 3/4". Heat disipates too quickly in small diameter lines. Because of the lower melting point of Amsteel I'm certain the relavant minimum size is smaller, but not 3/16".
2. This effect is relavant to consistant work; very percentage of breaking strength for at least several minutes. Since a lifeline will never see much over 1000 pounds (end rails will deform) and only for a fraction of a second, insulation effects wouldn't even enter the math.

I know what I'm going to do, now that I think about it. I'm going to install one of each reasonable option (different P and S) and write back. Anything else would be guess work.


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Pdq,

I look forward to the results. I would suggest that you may need to do an accelerated test somehow. My lifelines are now 4 years old without chaff guards, and they still look new. It could take a while for them to show significant wear, unless you have a known chaff point.


----------



## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Stumble said:


> I appreciate the better weave for abrasion resistance, but just haven't seen it as worthwhile. I see so little abrasion in dyneema as is, I just don't see going to a special cover just for it.
> 
> That being said if I knew something was going to see massive abrasion I would probably investigate it more, but then I would first try and reduce the abrasion.
> 
> The asym tack was fixed after we got home. It just took one large block we didn't have onboard.


I hear ya, if there is big chafe, then that needs to be fixed first. However, I've been on offshore boats that have almost chewed through brand new halyards on day 3. These are dyneema cored lines with the cover stripped and the chafe guard added for a J120 going to bermuda next year. The load on the smooth sheave would chew up a poly cover and a $500+ halyard.


----------



## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

This is the way I did it a couple years ago on my boat...

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/85392-dyneema-lifelines-installed.html

Still holding up well


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Squidd said:


> This is the way I did it a couple years ago on my boat...
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/85392-dyneema-lifelines-installed.html
> 
> Still holding up well


Nice. I am thinking of recycling pelican hooks in the same way and was interested to see how that worked out. No chafe? Not much room for chafe protection; I wonder if inserting a shackle could make sense, just to make more room, though I dislike the look. What size Amsteel? I'm betting the hole is 1/4-inch and you used 3/16-inch Amsteel. I would like to go up to 1/4-inch Amsteel, hence the problem.


----------



## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

It's 1/4" line..holes in the stancions are at least 3/8" and I still had room to slide the chafe guard tube thru.Strung it thru the stancions and put on a layer of "tubular webbing" chafe guard and secured loose ends with a piece of shrink tubing...Keeps the webbing from unraveling and helps it slip thru the stancion when I un clip the line...


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Squidd said:


> It's 1/4" line..holes in the stancions are at least 3/8" and I still had room to slide the chafe guard tube thru.Strung it thru the stancions and put on a layer of "tubular webbing" chafe guard and secured loose ends with a piece of shrink tubing...Keeps the webbing from unraveling and helps it slip thru the stancion when I un clip the line...


I understand all of that. 3/8-inch holes are the norm, sized to pass swages.

a. What size are the holes in the eyes at the pelican hooks?

b. I would probably lash the lines to the stanchions so that the line does NOT slide when unclipped. I do not find that desirable, as the lifelines becomes almost dangerous if a single gate is open. Stack lines at dock caused a nasty fall on my boat, after which I lashed the wire lines fixed. They do make stanchion eyes to solve this, but they seem like over kill and that should be a better solution involving less hardware.


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

zz4gta said:


> I hear ya, if there is big chafe, then that needs to be fixed first. However, I've been on offshore boats that have almost chewed through brand new halyards on day 3. These are dyneema cored lines with the cover stripped and the chafe guard added for a J120 going to bermuda next year. The load on the smooth sheave would chew up a poly cover and a $500+ halyard.


We went to halyard locks on the big boat, which are probably the sweetest thing on the planet for preventing chaff. They are so nice it makes me wonder why they aren't used on roller furlers, well other than the cost. But they take all the compression out of the mast, and make the halyard almost meaningless underway.

You do point out one of the biggest points of chaff failure I have seen, but just putting an extra layer of the same size line has worked for me. Again I think this is a great place to use the dyneema chaff stuff, but I just haven't seen the need to buy it.


----------



## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

pdqaltair said:


> a. What size are the holes in the eyes at the pelican hooks?
> .


I want to say 5/16" (same as the dia of bolt) but maybe a little bigger because _ I double whipped the loop of the eye with Dacron to cushion bend _and attached with a regular push splice cross sewing to keep it from pulling out...


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Stumble said:


> We went to halyard locks on the big boat, which are probably the sweetest thing on the planet for preventing chaff. They are so nice it makes me wonder why they aren't used on roller furlers, well other than the cost. But they take all the compression out of the mast, and make the halyard almost meaningless underway.
> 
> You do point out one of the biggest points of chaff failure I have seen, but just putting an extra layer of the same size line has worked for me. Again I think this is a great place to use the dyneema chaff stuff, but I just haven't seen the need to buy it.


a. They are used on furlers. I've worked one similar to this one: Facnor - Furler system, gennaker & code 0 furlers, facslide

b. Other than cost, I suspect some folk fear getting a sail stuck in a breeze. Many dingies have less engineered versions and sometimes they stick. The reason for them is the same; significantly reduced compression loads.

Given the reduction in compression, it does beg the question why a cheaper mass-produced alternative has not become available.


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

pdqaltair said:


> Given the reduction in compression, it does beg the question why a cheaper mass-produced alternative has not become available.


We looked at making one, but there are major manufacturing problems with trying to make them much cheaper than they are now.

1) they can't be cast because of strength issues. Any voids would lead to failure
2) machining them is extremely time consuming and thus expensive.
3) making sintering molds would be the best way since once the mold is made parts get cheap quick, but the molds and equipment costs are extremely high. With a start up cost of just under a million bucks the economies just didn't work out. We couldn't sell enough to the small market to make back the investment.

If I could get an order together of say 2,000 we could have them in production in a few months at a fraction the price. The problem is most manufacturers are making them in lots of 5 by machining them, and until demands steps up....


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

Stumble said:


> We looked at making one, but there are major manufacturing problems with trying to make them much cheaper than they are now.
> 
> 1) they can't be cast because of strength issues. Any voids would lead to failure
> 2) machining them is extremely time consuming and thus expensive.
> ...


And of course, that halyard comression load is really less than 10% of the total. The main reason dingies use halyard locks is that they do not have winches and add luff tension by down hauling; any halyard stretch kills that.


----------



## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

pdqaltair said:


> And of course, that halyard comression load is really less than 10% of the total. The main reason dingies use halyard locks is that they do not have winches and add luff tension by down hauling; any halyard stretch kills that.


Real performance dingys don't even have halyards. The Moth's just shackle the sail up.


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

overbored said:


> I have been reading a bit on chafe gear and I think the problem is that the Dyneema did not like sliding in the nylon webbing after the sun got to the nylon and made it abrasive. chafe gear should be fastened to the line it is protecting. These life lines get used to support the weight of several people as they hang over the rail. ever since we attached the Dyneema sleeve to the line there is no chafing on the smooth stainless


This is counter to all of Sampson's advice; their Amsteel chafe gear is all polyester and nylon, and they specifiy that movement with the surface be minimized by allowing the rope to slide within the gear. The gear is secured to the rough surface. (Sampson's web site, chafing gear). Since this matches my expereince, I would be interested in reading any counter data. There is some factor Sampson is missing?


----------

