# Small center cockpits for coastal cruising liveboard family



## awelex

Hey all!

We are a small family looking to start a big adventure. We want to travel and sailing seems the perfect way to achieve this as a family. We have been looking at smaller, cheap, center cockpit/aft cabin boats around 35' or less, mainly because there are a lot of boats in this range available for cheap ($10-15k). We are beginner sailors and so are ok with a boat that is not capable of crossing oceans; we just need something that we can coastal cruise/cruise the Bahamas/marina hop in for a few years. We are very heavily inspired by Captain Fatty and his style of sailing/budget cruising. 

Anyways, does anyone have any experience with any of these boats and could give us their opinion for coastal cruising/liveaboard worthiness for a family?

S2 9.2C
Out island 33 (Ya I know, not a center cockpit-but some layouts have two quarter berths that would work for us.)
O'Day 32 thru 37
Irwin 37

Any suggestions for boats in this style and price range would be greatly appreciated! We would love to coastal cruise down the West coast of the US and Latin America for a few years, upgrade the boat, and start a circumnavigation. If there are any boats in this style and price range that would be suited to a circumnavigation, please let us know! We are most interested in getting out of the consumerism and negative culture of the US as soon as possible, that is why we are looking at boats in this price range. I am relatively handy and we are not too concerned about everything being in the best shape (besides safety issues), as we can fix those on the way.


Thanks so much!


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## seabeau

awelex said:


> Hey all!
> 
> We are a small family looking to start a big adventure. We want to travel and sailing seems the perfect way to achieve this as a family. We have been looking at smaller, cheap, center cockpit/aft cabin boats around 35' or less, mainly because there are a lot of boats in this range available for cheap ($10-15k). We are beginner sailors and so are ok with a boat that is not capable of crossing oceans; we just need something that we can coastal cruise/cruise the Bahamas/marina hop in for a few years. We are very heavily inspired by Captain Fatty and his style of sailing/budget cruising.
> 
> Anyways, does anyone have any experience with any of these boats and could give us their opinion for coastal cruising/liveaboard worthiness for a family?
> 
> S2 9.2C
> Out island 33 (Ya I know, not a center cockpit-but some layouts have two quarter berths that would work for us.)
> O'Day 32 thru 37
> Irwin 37
> 
> Any suggestions for boats in this style and price range would be greatly appreciated! We would love to coastal cruise down the West coast of the US and Latin America for a few years, upgrade the boat, and start a circumnavigation. If there are any boats in this style and price range that would be suited to a circumnavigation, please let us know! We are most interested in getting out of the consumerism and negative culture of the US as soon as possible, that is why we are looking at boats in this price range. I am relatively handy and we are not too concerned about everything being in the best shape (besides safety issues), as we can fix those on the way.
> 
> Thanks so much!


 The S2 may be a little on the small side. I've sailed the O'Day 32 with the centerboard and I liked it a lot.($10-15K) I believe the O'Day 37 will be your best bet all way around with decent room, fairly good build quality and good sailing ability.($18-29K) The Morgan 33 is built like a tank, very roomy, super stable, but her great beam and relatively shallow full keel reduces her weatherly abilities.(Price?) However, when the winds pickup, she give you plenty of silence reassurance in her ability to weather almost any severe storm. I've never sailed an Irwin, although I do like the looks of the 37CC.($18-35K) Have any vessel of these age groups thoroughly surveyed. All will have some fairly serious issues with either construction(hulls, bulkheads), mechanical(plumbing), propulsion(engines and sails/riggings) or electrical systems etc..


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## Arcb

Fantasia 35 is a good spacious Centre Cockpit, perfect for family cruising. I'm thinking they are more spacious then any of the models listed above. Good stout construction too. They are a rare find though.


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## Lazerbrains

As nice as center cockpit designs are for interior layout, I have always steered away from them as they typically have a very high freeboard, which results in some serious windage.
Furthermore, as a result of the high freeboard, you typically need a large fiberglass staircase to get on and off the boat. Fine if you are going in and out of your slip, but might be a problem if you are cruising to different ports: not exactly easy to store a 6' staircase. 

That being said, of the models you listed I would prefer the S2 and O'day models.


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## killarney_sailor

Lazerbrains said:


> As nice as center cockpit designs are for interior layout, I have always steered away from them as they typically have a very high freeboard, which results in some serious windage.
> Furthermore, as a result of the high freeboard, you typically need a large fiberglass staircase to get on and off the boat. Fine if you are going in and out of your slip, but might be a problem if you are cruising to different ports: not exactly easy to store a 6' staircase.
> 
> That being said, of the models you listed I would prefer the S2 and O'day models.


We have a large centre cockpit boat (Bristol 45.5) and have only ever needed a small step - and my wife is not very tall. We started with a two step Rubbermaid item that we called the 'granny step'. We used it if we were at a very low dock (a foot or so above the water. Also could put it on deck if were tied at a high, usually commercial, dock. The original granny step was stolen in South Africa and we could not find a plastic step, they were all cheap metal ones there. Best we could find was a study plastic planter that is about 15" high and it works fine. It is hollow and we store it with stuff inside so it really does not take much space.

More importantly, when you are doing extended cruising you rarely are at a dock. Most of the time you are anchored out. Access to the dinghy (open transom or good ladder) matters a lot more.


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## JimsCAL

There's a reason not many smaller center cockpit boats have been made over the years. They don't sail particularly well and the layout really works much better in larger sizes. I would not rule out aft cockpit boats as you may find one with a layout that works for you. And I much prefer being in the back of the boat tucked behind the dodger when the weather is nasty.


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## TomMaine

We coastal sailed as a family of four as our kids grew up. We found the old CCA layout with two pilot berths ideal for our daughter and son as they grew up. They worked as near private cabins for each - great personal stowage for each - all while still allowing us full access through the boat. No berth conversions to make nightly. 

In our case, an aft double wouldn't have worked as well (two siblings in a small cabin isn't always ideal), but everyone is different(and you may only have one child). 

The caveat of an older boat though is there is much less volume below. They have wide decks, large cockpits and accommodations more suitable for sailing than living onboard. But they'll work fine for younger children for a few months. 

Good luck!


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## MikeOReilly

Another one you should look at, if you can find one, is a Grampian 34. Made both sloop and centre-cockpit ketch models (~50). CC might fit your needs. Like all Grampians, they were built simple and solid. Huge space, large aft cabin. Ketch makes it versatile to sail. They sell pretty cheap these days. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## Lazerbrains

killarney_sailor said:


> We have a large centre cockpit boat (Bristol 45.5) and have only ever needed a small step - and my wife is not very tall.
> 
> More importantly, when you are doing extended cruising you rarely are at a dock. Most of the time you are anchored out. Access to the dinghy (open transom or good ladder) matters a lot more.


Ted Hood got it right with the 45.5. I am sure you are aware of the typical high freeboard/deck height of most center cockpits however.

As for going to a dock while cruising, you do have to refuel at some point.


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## olson34

Not sure of just "big" or "small" you want to go... but we know a couple that have spent large parts of 12 summers on their S2-26 center cockpit sailboat. They say it's perfect for a couple, and they routinely trailer it to distant cruising grounds. Since it was designed in the era of 8 foot max beam for non-permit trailering, it is versatile and can also transition to it's trailer for the winters. It takes a couple of people to raise and lower the tabernacled mast. They have a modern 2 cylinder diesel in it.
So choose your boat based on what "fits" your needs. You might be surprised at the choices out there!


Loren


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## Arcb

My small centre cockpit, does have high freeboard, but it's maybe 4' from the water, and most docks are going to be a couple of feet above the water. Our dock is about 3' above the water, no stairs required.

However, I agree the extra windage can be a minor hassle for docking.

I think the owners of most small CC's would list their primary complaint as being the tall companion way stairs and potential fall associated with that, not so much the stairs on the dock. I did have to use stairs for a while when I was on a very low floating dock. The stairs were maybe two- two and a half feet.

As far a dodger and Bimini go, I definitely have a dodger and Bimini to get out of the weather as well as a full wind/bug screen enclosure. Dodgers are not a feature restricted to aft cockpit boats. Plus, due to the high freeboard and even higher cockpit, we get very little spray.


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## Arcb

I think if you're going to discuss the drawbacks to high freeboard you can't neglect the advantages. 

High freeboard is going to result in a bigger interior volume which is going to mean a few things.

More reserve buoyancy, which is a very effective defence against flooding and therefore sinking and has a huge safety value.

More standing head room, so good for tall people. I'm not tall, but even my aft cabin has over 6' of headroom.

A greater space/length ratio, which I think is a major factor in their popularity amongst families with children sailing on a budget.


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## xort

We have almost 5 feet of freeboard and dont have any problems. I have a single step hung on 2 lines at the midship boarding gate that makes access to docks and dinks easy. We are old and decrepit and it's not a big deal. And midship is the preffered boarding when there is any chop at anchor as the center of the boat moves least. The stern rises and falls much more and can be a problem for boarding.


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## aeaston

Check out the Tanzer 10.5

Aft cabin, bunk beds forward for the kids, pilot house to keep you out of the bad weather and it can have 2' draft if you find one with the swing keel.


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## killarney_sailor

Lazerbrains said:


> Ted Hood got it right with the 45.5. I am sure you are aware of the typical high freeboard/deck height of most center cockpits however.
> 
> As for going to a dock while cruising, you do have to refuel at some point.


It is much,much easier to design a nice looking 45 foot centre cockpit than a 35 footer since people stay the same size for each. I am not a fan of smaller centre cockpit boats in general., it is just too hard to make the design work. One possibility for the OP, except for the price, are Moodys in the mid 30 range. They keep the freeboard fairly low and sail well. We met one 34 in South Africa that had come from Wales the long way with no real intention of sailing around the world. Great, but long, story about how they had sailed south from Wales just looking for some warmer weather and one thing led to another.

Depends on where you are cruising, but most places off the beaten track (and not that far off the beaten track) do not have fuel docks. You have to refuel with jerry cans, so it is back to access from dink to dock. Also if you pick the right boat you don't have to motor much since most cruising is done in trade wind areas and you can sail. We motored about 400 hours in 36,000 nm.


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## Jeff_H

When I worked for a yacht deigner we had a request to adapt an existing aft cockpit design to a center cockpit. The process led to a discussion and sketch sessions exploration of the design limitations of designing a small center cockpit. The conclusion was that small center cockpit boats require some mix of serious compromises. There seems to be a practical threshold around 40 feet where center cockpit layouts are less of a compromise. 

To explain: When you design a smaller cruising boat, there needs to be a discipline where every inch must count. As others have noted, the human body sets some of the primary design parameters that set many of the longitudinal positions of key components. 

Typically in order to get a reasonably sized aft cabin, the cockpit gets pushed forward into the widest and deepest portion of the boat depriving the designer of being able to use this volume efficiently. Instead of using this space for living space with the most headroom and greatest widths, it is typically lost to the engine room, passage and storage. To gain headroom in the passage seat and deck height is raised negatively impacting sailing ability and stability. 

So the net result typically is some mix of compromised accommodations. Cramped headroom, inconvenient interior layouts, increased freeboard, and diminished sailing ability and motion comfort. 

As others have noted aft cockpits with comfortable quarter berths generally work better until the boat approaches 40 feet.

Jeff


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## Arcb

Jeff_H said:


> When I worked for a yacht deigner we had a request to adapt an existing aft cockpit design to a center cockpit. The process led to a discussion and sketch sessions exploration of the design limitations of designing a small center cockpit. The conclusion was that small center cockpit boats require some mix of serious compromises. There seems to be a practical threshold around 40 feet where center cockpit layouts are less of a compromise.
> 
> To explain: When you design a smaller cruising boat, there needs to be a discipline where every inch must count. As others have noted, the human body sets some of the primary design parameters that set many of the longitudinal positions of key components.
> 
> Typically in order to get a reasonably sized aft cabin, the cockpit gets pushed forward into the widest and deepest portion of the boat depriving the designer of being able to use this volume efficiently. Instead of using this space for living space with the most headroom and greatest widths, it is typically lost to the engine room, passage and storage. To gain headroom in the passage seat and deck height is raised negatively impacting sailing ability and stability.
> 
> So the net result typically is some mix of compromised accommodations. Cramped headroom, inconvenient interior layouts, increased freeboard, and diminished sailing ability and motion comfort.
> 
> As others have noted aft cockpits with comfortable quarter berths generally work better until the boat approaches 40 feet.
> 
> Jeff


Cruising boats are a compromise in design. Just as stability is a compromise of factors.

There is no arguing that a higher freeboard, all other factors being equal, will result in a higher centre of gravity. KG is only one of many factors to consider in stability calculations. Higher free board means, as I mentioned earlier greater reserve buoyancy, as well as a greater angle of deck edge immersion and a high free board centre cockpit will have a much higher angle of down flooding.

If you were to design a low KG open scow, at the point the deck edge immerged, the initial stability would be of no concern, because the boat would be full of water and sinking.

A little bit of tenderness in motion isn't always a bad thing either. If sailboats were all designed like fishing bobbers we would all need neck braces.

I have no problem agreeing most any 35' aft cockpit boat, competently handled will outperform my 35' Centre Cockpit design when sailing to windward.

However, I originally purchased the boat with marina live aboard life for 3 plus a dog in mind, in addition to sailing. Winter is pretty well 6 months long in Canada, which means, the boat is just an apartment frozen in the ice half the year. Was I willing to sacrifice some windward ability for improved living conditions including privacy separation that allowed for a standing head room cabin with a door on either end of the boat? For sure I was.

I believe the OP is also looking for a live aboard or at least comfortable boat for a family with children. He may also be willing to sacrifice that 15 degrees or so of windward sailing ability for the privacy separation.

I'm not trying to sell any one on small CC's, but they do fit a specific niche that fits some people very well. The headroom in my 35' CC is 7' in the salon, and over 6' in both cabins. My friends Hunter 38, which has a few compromises to seaworthiness in favour of comfort as well has maybe 4 and half feet of head room in the aft cabin.

I would love a catamaran for sailing with kids, but catamarans are very expensive. A small Centre Cockpit is a reasonable compromise for cash conscious folks who need more than one proper bedroom. I can't think of a single aft cockpit design with 2 proper bedrooms with doors and standing head room in each.


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## capta

As we sail a CC boat, I was going to chime in, but it seems as though the OP never came back and everybody is just posting to each other.
I wonder if he ever found a boat and began his adventure?


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## SWFLman

I'm mulling this over right now has to by a 45 CC or an Aft Cockpit. My wife and I (in our 60's) are moving aboard. I would like to have the 2 staterooms provide by a CC, but is a bit concern about always crawling into a CC vs. just stepping aboard from the dock on to the swim platform and into the cockpit on a aft cockpit. Any 60 somethings cruising with a CC and how do you find it getting in and out of the CC?

Steve


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## capta

Well, I'll be 70 in a month or so and though I do have a bit of envy over the simplicity of stern boarding, I'd not trade our walk around standard queen size bed in our aft 'en-suite stateroom' for it. Also I wouldn't trade the davits for the aft boarding as well. We can have our dink out of the water and still have visitors (we NEVER have to clean the dink bottom).
As for getting in and out of the cockpit, I believe that motion is keeping me more limber than a cockpit that doesn't require as much stepping over to get into. As we age we need to keep up the physical motion or our bodies decline MUCH faster, IMO.
I have added bars to the bimini that span the area we enter and leave the cockpit from, for more security coming and going, see pic below.


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## aeventyr60

If the OP is still with us, have a look at the Tosca 36. A South African designed CC boat. A sailor friened of mine is sailing this boat in Thailand and is beginning to do blogs on youtube. One of his earlier post on his Tosca 36 here:

About « SV-Synchronicity


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## aeventyr60

Caught up with a friend of mine cruising a Westerly 36. Sales video on you tube for your perusal:


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