# What boat for a family circumnavigation?



## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

What boat and why for family of 4 to do a circumnavigation on a moderate budget?

I am leaving the question somewhat ambiguous as in part my curiosity is philosophical as well as pragmatic.

I know there are several boats that could and have done it. I have read the 'Bluewater' lists and gone a round or two in a few of the threads but what I am trying to figure out is what is the best fit for _us_.

We currently sail a Martzcraft/Roberts 35. It could do it.

While we have cruised thousands of miles mostly coastal and like alot about her however for world sailing we are starting to consider whether she is perhaps not right for a trip around the globe. She is perhaps a tad small, as racers in a former life we also have to confess that she is not quick.

We would still prefer to go as small and simple as possible, but what is small, simple yet comfortable for living aboard for 3-5 years with school aged children?

Our plan is a'standard' circumnavigation but with the current Gulf of Aden situation it would most likely be via the Cape of Good Hope.

For the sake of a guide let's say 40 - 55ft.

Budget is very variable. In reality we will spend what we have to get the right boat. Say loosely 150k-400k.

Boats we have considered

Peterson 44/46 
Stevens 47 
Amel Super Maramu 
Bristol 45.5
Hallberg Rassy 42/46
Brewer 42
Saga 43
Montecarlo 43

All advise and thoughts welcome.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Catalina Morgan 41 12.6m 1987 | Trade Me

This might do you. It's less expensive and should be fairly well kitted out already. The drawback is that it's across the Tasman.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Thanks Scott. Across the Tasman does not worry me, if anything it gives us better angles on the Pacific islands. 

Is this the same boat as the Morgan Out Island?? If so is there some concerns about build quality on these?

I ask as I do not know. Otherwise, it would look to be a slightly larger version of our current boat, which is perhaps where we are heading. Maybe not great sailing performance either?


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

chall03 said:


> Hallberg Rassy 42/46


Look at the Frers HRs - they are much quicker, higher pointing boats than the Enderlein boats: 40, 43, 48.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

SVAuspicious said:


> Look at the Frers HRs - they are much quicker, higher pointing boats than the Enderlein boats: 40, 43, 48.


Thanks.

I had heard that and so we have been restricting our search to 90s/early 2000s (by reason of budget) Frers models.


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## pcmm (Jan 31, 2014)

You should add the whitby 42 to your list. Long keel for stability and safety. Center cockpit with generous aft cabin ( refuge from the kids!) lots of tankage! The only down side for me is the ketch rig, I never really liked the ketch rig very much. And on the whitby, the mizzenmast is too big, contributing to weather helm. Whitby made lots of them and they are generally considered better built than the fort Myers Brewer 12.8 (42).


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> Is this the same boat as the Morgan Out Island?? If so is there some concerns about build quality on these?


I think it might be a later type model but I think a lot of the OI are ketch rigged. I have never heard of issues with them but could never be 100%. Don't think it would ever be considered a racer given its design. I think it does have an encapsulated keel which I think is a plus. Just thought it might be servicable for your goals and save a bit of money at the outset.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

although heavy it is similiar to a couple of the boats you posted

I think the *westail 42 *is a hefty and comfortable familiy cruiser...many of them have an enclosed cockpit(center cockipt)

center cockpits are ofteh preffered for families because they are usually dried and less exposed cockpit wise but most importantly you have an aft cabin that can be used for the kids...

separating adults from kids is sometimes needed jajaja


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

If I was thinking fibreglass then the Amel would be my choice, comes with a front bulkhead and Henri knew what he was doing when he made those as circumnavigators.

However a steel boat would give me a more secure feeling when things go bump in the night.

Something like this. 1990 Southern 50 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

I wouldn't be too quick to add that Morgan OI to your list, if I were you... 

Of course some have gotten around, and Earl Hinz sailed his all over the Pacific for years... But they are all getting pretty long in the tooth, and 2 have been abandoned off the US East coast recentlly - one in the Salty Dawg rally last fall (after reportedly having a bulkhead come adrift, and hull to deck joint 'issues'), and another 350 miles E of Norfolk just a few weeks ago, in conditions that were not reported to be all that extreme... Don't write off Morgans entirely, however, I've always thought that boat of Andre's is a pretty sweet boat, and could suit your needs very well... Finding one in your part of the world, however, could be a bit of a challenge...

Of your list, I might be tempted by the Saga 43, but that's largely due to my preference for an aft cockpit... But Auspicious is right, you couldn't go wrong with a Frers-designed H-R, I think those are wonderful boats, and one of the few center-cockpit boats I would care to own, and I was really impressed by the overall quality and performance of the 43 I delivered last year...

Not to mention, I haven't heard of any H-Rs being abandoned when the going got tough, lately...


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

An experienced friend of mine who has been part-way 'round the world and has done many deliveries up and down the US west coast with friends says that the Morgan OI with the shoal draft off the Oregon/Washington coast was the "scariest experience of his life." He's been in worse conditions, but he found the boat unstable and unsteerable [edit] in anything above moderate conditions. YMMV.

My recommendation? A Nauticat 40.  Even the motor-sailor line of Nauticats can be found sailing all over the world. The motor-sailors are usually much more affordable than their S&S designed cousins (though mine was a rare exception of a very motivated seller), and even the 33footer would do very well for a family of 4 with it's layout. The pilothouse doors and windows of the older models can be a liability, but the windows can be replaced/reinforced and plexiglass storm shutters can be made cheaply.

MedSailor


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I hate to be biased but the morgan oi 41 is one of my least favourite boats and I second the same comments

other boats that Im biased about are those weird schooner bowed bucanneers and similar boats they made in the 80s

anywhoo

pleeeeeenty of boats to chose from

of course dependant on market, where are you planning on buying?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

*PASSPORT 40*

modified fin full keel and skeg...I liked them..saw a few out there


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> Of your list, I might be tempted by the Saga 43, but that's largely due to my preference for an aft cockpit... But Auspicious is right, you couldn't go wrong with a Frers-designed H-R, I think those are wonderful boats, and one of the few center-cockpit boats I would care to own, and I was really impressed by the overall quality and performance of the 43 I delivered last year...


I like the Saga also. Buying a center cockpit was something of a surprise for me. HR, Moody, and some of the Najads have managed to avoid the wedding cake aesthetic. The aft cabin sure is nice, as is the aft deck.

I don't know all the boats on the OP list from personal experience. The Peterson 44, Stevens 47, and Amel are, in my opinion, good cruisers.

Every boat design has its strengths and weaknesses. A purchasing decision comes down to many small decisions. It is all about priorities. Not all are subject to rational discussion. For example, I can make a very good case for why a head at the base of the companionway is a good idea. I'm not sure I could make a case for not having a head there as a deal-breaker, but it would be for me.

I'll sail nearly anything. A boat I own has to speak to me.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

*I'll sail nearly anything. A boat I own has to speak to me.
*

wise wise wise


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Just to clarify I don't believe the boat I linked is an OI.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Here ya' go mate.

Used 38' Nauticat Ketch for Sale | Yachts For Sale | Yachthub
A Nauticat 38 in your neck of the woods under 100K. The NC38 is the boat we were originally going to buy. It is a FANTASTIC family boat. Selling points include having 2 big separate seating areas with tables so the kids can spread out projects on one, and you can eat on the other. Separation of space is good too with kids up front and parents in the aft cabin (2 heads). The teak rail all the way around helps keep the kiddos aboard.

Other Nauticats in your area including a NC40 (which doesn't have a sauna. I checked.  ):
Used Nauticat Boats for Sale | Yachthub

MedSailor (Nauticat evangelist)


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

chall03 said:


> Peterson 44/46
> Stevens 47
> Amel Super Maramu
> Bristol 45.5
> ...


I don't know the Montecarlo so cannot comment on it. We have a Bristol 45.5 and has served us well. Tough as can be and reasonably quick for its age and purpose. We looked at Petersons and I think the Bristol is better. Quite impressed with the Stevens 47 and various HRs we have seen. Very big fan of Amel. if we were doing it over and with more money to spend and if we were staying with a mono (answer big question), the admiral has said it would an Amel.

Final comment, the boats you are comparing here are quite different in both size and cost. I like the Saga but it seems much smaller to me. I don't think the Brewer/Whitby 42 (made in my home port of Brewer (I mean Whitby)) are in the same class as the others. Passport 40 is also not close in size to boats like the Stevens and Bristol. There are other boats in the 45' +/- range as well.

Final comment, I have never even done an overnight on cat but there are families out there doing circumnavigations in them quite happily.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

killarney_sailor said:


> Passport 40 is also not close in size to boats like the Stevens and Bristol.


I think the biggest issue with the Passport 40 is that it is not a good fit for racers, even retired racers gone cruising. It just stops in a sea.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

chall03 said:


> For the sake of a guide let's say 40 - 55ft.
> .


Oops, didn't read close enough what your size range was, nor did I see the Amel Super Maru. That's a big budget boat. In that case, in my role as "Nauticat Evangalist" I shall point you towards the S&S designed NC 521. It's the bigger brother to my boat.

Used Nauticat 521 for Sale | Yachts For Sale | Yachthub

Though, it'd be hard to pass up the Super Maru, especially if you don't desire a true pilothouse. I like what they did with the Super Maru though, where they located the wheel tucked well under the integral hard dodger. Check out the youtube videos for S/V Delos. I believe their boat used to be my slip neighbor in Seattle and now they've left Australia and are cruising SE Asia.

MedSailor


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

It's at the high end of your size range, but an Irwin 54'. I am partial to them having spend 10 years growing up on one. You give up some sailing ability for a cabin for everyone, and plenty of tankage and storage.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

so you want fast too? I didnt see that part


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

killarney_sailor said:


> I don't know the Montecarlo so cannot comment on it. We have a Bristol 45.5 and has served us well. Tough as can be and reasonably quick for its age and purpose. We looked at Petersons and I think the Bristol is better. Quite impressed with the Stevens 47 and various HRs we have seen. Very big fan of Amel. if we were doing it over and with more money to spend and if we were staying with a mono (answer big question), the admiral has said it would an Amel.
> 
> Final comment, the boats you are comparing here are quite different in both size and cost. I like the Saga but it seems much smaller to me. I don't think the Brewer/Whitby 42 (made in my home port of Brewer (I mean Whitby)) are in the same class as the others. Passport 40 is also not close in size to boats like the Stevens and Bristol. There are other boats in the 45' +/- range as well.
> 
> Final comment, I have never even done an overnight on cat but there are families out there doing circumnavigations in them quite happily.


While I love the amels they are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO overpriced...

part of it is cult status but also because indeed they are well made boats...

however they dont all look real good visually to me...takes some getting used to

but alas I agree they are for the most part awesome boats.

other boats that often go the way of overpricing are the hinckley bermudas, some pacific seacrafts among others

when looking at the boats in the list I can see chall has a wide spectrum to chose from...they are in no way the same lines and or characteristics...which is good....

options options!


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

The newer Amels (pricier of course) are much better looking boats than the early ones. Certainly when you start looking at Amels and HRs the prices are definitely up there. I guess you could always go for a Little Harbor if you want a more expensive version of a Bristol.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Thanks all,

Yes our size and budget range is unhelpfully broad at the moment!
Always been told go in the smallest boat you can, but after realizing the Roberts isn't right, I am trying to be realistic about it.

I really like the Amels, they are at the top of size/money scale however and we would be looking at 10+ year old models. They seem to complex boats with maybe more bells and whistles than we need? I worry about time spent in port trying to source parts and keep up with maintenance.

Not necessarily after a speed machine, just acknowledging that after buying a heavier boat we have been frustrated at times with slow passage times.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

killarney_sailor said:


> Certainly when you start looking at Amels and HRs the prices are definitely up there. I guess you could always go for a Little Harbor if you want a more expensive version of a Bristol.


That's the rub. It's a big chunk of our budget gone on either an Amel or a HR.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

chall03 said:


> Thanks all,
> 
> Yes our size and budget range is unhelpfully broad at the moment!
> Always been told go in the smallest boat you can, but after realizing the Roberts isn't right, I am trying to be realistic about it.
> ...


if you can afford an amel and have bern frustrated with slow passage times and want a good family boat then you should seriously look at catamarans

Brevity and typos are courtesy of my Samsung S4 Active.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

One thing I really like about Amels is that the factory keeps a very detailed database about your boat. If you change out a bilge pump in Suva then want you to tell them so they can update the DB. If you get stuck somewhere and need something that you can't source locally they will send whatever it is that you need. That strikes me as a huge plus.

There are obviously some quick catamarans out there but if you take one in 40 to 45' range, which is what the budget here suggests and load it down with all the crap a family needs for extended cruising they do slow down a lot more than an equivalent monohull. We buddy-boated with an Antares 44 for thousands of miles and had no particular problems keeping - with both boats having couples of crews who were in particular hurry. I think there are good reasons to have a cat for a family but speed would be well down the list of virtues.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

we buddy boated with 1 catamaran around 45 feet, up the red sea, they were catalan cats from spain...

they were awesome when anchored out as they had soooooooooo much space to play around on and any time we would stop thats the "comitte" and drinks boat...

having said that they were as slow going upwind, obviously less pointing angle and they always sailed the boat slow cause they were conservative...

they also motored A LOT, but they told me the reason for this is was that they consumed much less fuel by using either engine at a time...a cat has much less drag through water for a given length so they said their consumption wasnt as drastic as it would be on a mono...

having said that all boats have pros and cons...

the issue with cats for me has always been price...they are just too expensive for the same length or comparable volume if you will...

I do think they make better FAMILY boats for all the reasons mentioned before, but speed like KS says is way down the list in reality once out there.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

chall have you thought about aluminum boats? we saw quite a few from australia, nz and other places...

I beleive they were ovnis and another maker, french I beleive I just cant remember the name

they for some reason were all cruised by families dont know what it was! jajaja


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

We have I guess never been cat people, which in of itself is probably a silly reason to not at least consider them.

It is hard to ignore the liveability of Cats particularly for a family and the Antares are really an amazing boat, albeit more expensive than even an Amel and well out of budget.

As for Aluminum I do like the Ovni's that I have seen down here. They are still quite rare here however.

Besides I am trying to _narrow_ our search not widen it!!!!  

We have also considered the possibility of purchasing and then starting our trip somewhere other than Oz. Purchasing a HR or Amel in Europe and bringing it back this direction make some sense, particularly given that it is difficult to include the Med in a circumnavigation starting from Australia in any case.

Weighed against this option is the potential hassle of getting to know and preparing a boat in a foreign port.


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## Steady Hand (Jun 11, 2014)

chall03 said:


> What boat and why for family of 4 to do a circumnavigation on a moderate budget?
> 
> I am leaving the question somewhat ambiguous as in part my curiosity is philosophical as well as pragmatic.
> 
> ...


Is the $400k USD or AUS?


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## windmagic (Aug 16, 2013)

You have to look at a cruising cat not a charter cat , a good 2nd hand one that is already fitted with all the gear . Plenty available in South Africa for well under your budget .


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

chall03 said:


> Weighed against this option is the potential hassle of getting to know and preparing a boat in a foreign port.


I did that with Auspicious. It wasn't bad at all. In my case I found being away from home provided great focus on getting finished and off the dock. I did have excellent local support.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

chall03 said:


> We have I guess never been cat people, which in of itself is probably a silly reason to not at least consider them.
> 
> It is hard to ignore the liveability of Cats particularly for a family and the Antares are really an amazing boat, albeit more expensive than even an Amel and well out of budget.
> 
> ...


I know you might not want to, but when I was in California and reading latitude 38 a lot there were many articles about cruisers from oz and nz that said the best market($$$ wise) for them and starting point for a circumnav was to go to the states, west coast(california) were there are plenty of well priced good boats, some bargains, outfit there(very good parts and labor) and start the cruise back down to the south pacific...or cruise pacific coast of mexico, go to panama etc then hop back down to south pacific, or go to caribbean etc...plus you get to know your boat down the coast where its easy sailing...etc...

Im a firm beleiver that the bay area and california offer some of the best deals boat wise, especially for cruisers wanting a boat for cruising offshore...some boats already have many of the bells and whistles since they are "mexico" vets or hawaii vets, or transpac vets even round the workd vets..

places to look at are marina del rey, san diego, santa barbara, los angeles, and best san francisco bay area.

just a thought

I should also add the the pnw offers some good used boats too however they are around 25% more expensive on average compared to say san francisco...

but in seattle, port townsend among others many many beautiful boats to chose from.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

chall03 said:


> What boat and why for family of 4 to do a circumnavigation on a moderate budget?
> 
> I am leaving the question somewhat ambiguous as in part my curiosity is philosophical as well as pragmatic.
> 
> ...


Thanks to all who offered some great advice here.

To give a bit of an update, shortly after starting this thread we came very close to buying a Hallberg-Rassy 45 in the other hemisphere.

In the end it turned out to be a boat with too many issues and a vendor too unwilling to budge on price. As we were not _desperate_ to buy we walked away.

We did a bit of sailing, had a baby and took a year off from boat shopping. Now we are back and a tad more focused.

My first questions is does anyone have any experience or advice on a Moody 425?

The liveability looks good for us, they look to sail reasonably and have good build quality.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

The 425 is essentially the same as the 422 but with a bit extra on the sugar scoop.

90 galls water which is insufficient unless you have a reliable watermaker.

In mast furling was standard. [ Hate the the things. ]

Ensuite heads for the aft cabin which might suit you.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

TQA said:


> The 425 is essentially the same as the 422 but with a bit extra on the sugar scoop.
> 
> 90 galls water which is insufficient unless you have a reliable watermaker.
> 
> ...


I had thought the water tankage a bit limited, one of the boats I am considering in Panama has had additional tankage fitted and the In Mast furling removed in favour of lazy jacks.

Thoughts on build quality and sailing characteristics?

They seem to be on large far more reasonably priced than similar sized and aged Hallberg Rassy's and Najads.


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## blowinstink (Sep 3, 2007)

chall03 said:


> That's the rub. It's a big chunk of our budget gone on either an Amel or a HR.


That's your answer (and you already know it). It sounds like you have great reasons for a bit larger boat to facilitate the cruise in comfort -- just don't let that turn into a luxury which takes away from (or puts an end to) the cruise. There ought to be plenty of boats at or under 100K that fill most of your needs. Tayana 42, KP44, Caliber 40, Bristol 45.5 or even 41.1. Sounds like a fun search to me -- just stay off the one's you can afford!


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

blowinstink said:


> That's your answer (and you already know it). It sounds like you have great reasons for a bit larger boat to facilitate the cruise in comfort -- just don't let that turn into a luxury which takes away from (or puts an end to) the cruise. There ought to be plenty of boats at or under 100K that fill most of your needs. Tayana 42, KP44, Caliber 40, Bristol 45.5 or even 41.1. Sounds like a fun search to me -- just stay off the one's you can afford!


Pretty much!

Figuring out how much money we actually have snd then how much money we need for a midlife extended( 5 years) cruise while still having some in reserve is the equation we have to figure out.

All the boats you mentioned are on our shortlist other than the Caliber 40 as I must admit I do not know much about them.


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

If I had the money, I seriously would have looked at this Glacer 50 in Spain... But I didn't have the money and I'm still happy with the Kaufman 47 I bought.

www.yachtseller.net/details.php?id=280

- Ronnie...on the geaux


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

blowinstink said:


> Tayana 42, KP44, Caliber 40, Bristol 45.5 or even 41.1.


What about Bob's Nordic 44? Maybe the upper end of the price range on that short list, but shouldn't be more than a 45.5.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

zedboy said:


> What about Bob's Nordic 44? Maybe the upper end of the price range on that short list, but shouldn't be more than a 45.5.


There is a Nordic 40 for sale here about 1/2 mile from my mooring which is rare.Not too many of them around here.

My concern is that long term cruising it might still be too small a boat for us.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Nauticat 40 or 43?  I assure you, unless you guys are part rabbit, the 43 with it's extra stateroom that sleeps 3 will never get too small!

MedSailor


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Not shure what you budget is, but I like the Deerfoot, a few now on yacht world, a nice 50 footer in the mid 200's.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

casey1999 said:


> Not shure what you budget is, but I like the Deerfoot, a few now on yacht world, a nice 50 footer in the mid 200's.


I will have a look.

I have always liked the Deerfoot's, the Dashew's are amongst my early cruising/sailing heros. I fear though they might sit outside my budget.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

chall03 said:


> I will have a look.
> 
> I have always liked the Deerfoot's, the Dashew's are amongst my early cruising/sailing heros. I fear though they might sit outside my budget.


Here she is:
1991 Deerfoot 50 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

This Deerfoot 50 is an exceptional yacht for a cruising couple. She is fast - easy to manage - and thoughtfully designed for maximum safety and comfort for two. She features watertight bulkheads, walk-in engine room, king size island berth, gourmet cook's galley, full complement of marine electronics and two autopilots. No expense was spared to produce this quality Ulf Rodeberg designed yacht with a well engineered hull built by Lange and Hinckley Yachts. She has had many recent upgrades by her very experienced blue water owners who had many adventures throughout the Pacific. If you have plans for fast comfortable blue water cruising you would definitely want to consider this exceptional Deerfoot 50- the ultimate short handed cruiser.


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