# Missing Boat Found- No Skipper



## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Missing sailboat found adrift with no one aboard - Hawaii News - Honolulu Star-Advertiser

I had posted this story several weeks back when the boat went missing. Boat is found, but tragicaly, no skipper.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

I'm surprised they left the boat adrift. I would have expected them to either tow it in, or scuttle it.

In any case, tragic. Have to wonder if this is one of those situations where a little carelessness resulted in the captain falling overboard.


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

Strange tragedy, I guess anything could have happened while under sail...

What happens to the boat, isn't it a danger to navigation


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

most common cause of this tragedy is peeing over the rail..unfortunately we all do it...sad really but we will never know what REALLY happened


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> peeing over the rail..unfortunately we all do it...


No we all do not pee over the side. What a stupid, unsafe thing to do! Even in Harbour at anchor, or at a marina peeing over the can be fatal with one slip and the bang on the head.

I hope this guy didn't die that useless and wasteful way.

But for anyone reading this please remember that peeing over the side is an absolute no-no.

Mark


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

That story makes me think of all the chances I took and got away with it...
This was obviously an experienced skipper on a big, well founded boat. And he's now in Davy Jones' locker with his boat bobbing above... :/


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

christian.hess; said:


> peeing over the rail..unfortunately we all do it..


Not true. Go to the drug store a buy a portable urinal and stop putting yourself and crew at risk.
John


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

Sometimes is just a mystery, I'm at a lake with a good size marina and we lost a guy this past summer as he apparently fell off the boat right at his slip and drowned. Total mystery....


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

What I find most disconcerting about this tale is that on what should have been a 15 hour sail (if memory serves) in normal conditions, between two islands, quite close to one of the busiest airports, and one of our largest military bases, no one found this boat until it was 1300 miles away. It's not like there are many yachts sailing west from Hawaii; it should have been pretty easy to spot. Down wind (westish), hum, shouldn't that be the direction the search should have taken? No Gulfstream here, folks; wind and current both run the same way, for the most part. And with notification that it was missing within 48 hours??????
Nothing probably would have saved the skipper, but still; 1300 miles unseen. Wow.


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

capta said:


> Nothing probably would have saved the skipper, but still; 1300 miles unseen. Wow.


isn't that like halfway to the mainland


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> No we all do not pee over the side. What a stupid, unsafe thing to do! Even in Harbour at anchor, or at a marina peeing over the can be fatal with one slip and the bang on the head.
> 
> I hope this guy didn't die that useless and wasteful way.
> 
> ...


dude by all I mean a lot of people do it, its a fact...not saying I do it all the time...most people dont pee over the rail on harbours especially in modern countries caused its considered a crime!

and yes people have in fact died in this senseless manner...however as humans we still do it...


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> ...at a marina peeing over the can be fatal...


And the people in the next slip usually aren't fans of it either!


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## Rezz (Oct 12, 2012)

ccriders said:


> Not true. Go to the drug store a buy a portable urinal and stop putting yourself and crew at risk.
> John


A Gatorade bottle has a more secure top - you can imagine what happens when a urinal takes a fall. And I'm pretty sure that wide mouth bottle will work for pretty much anyone.

If your bladder's too big, there's always the gallon Arizona Sweet Tea bottles. They work for truckers too...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

nothing like a warm pee bottle to keep you warm in cold weather!

btw guys Im not advocating peeing over the rail...especially when solo, but its very very common...as are most boats not having holding tanks

it completelty depends where your boat is and where you cruise and what regulations are in place

anyways...this thread was about a sad story, may he(the skipper) rest in peace

reminds me of the electron trimaran in the golden globe race that knoxton won back in the 60s one of the brits lost it and for all intents and purposes he could of been peing over the rail in his delusion and altered state...but we will never know that either will we?

cheers


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Resolute_ZS said:


> If your bladder's too big, there's always the gallon Arizona Sweet Tea bottles.


Gatorade bottles come in many sizes... 
But it is a bit harder for the ladies. They need at least a bucket.


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## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

A tragic case for the sailor and his family. My condolences.

As to letting it hang out over the side, it's nice to hear that others think this is not a very good way to go. I've heard that the single handed TransPac'ers who don't have a head use a bucket. Definitely safer.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

capta said:


> What I find most disconcerting about this tale is that on what should have been a 15 hour sail (if memory serves) in normal conditions, between two islands, quite close to one of the busiest airports, and one of our largest military bases, no one found this boat until it was 1300 miles away. It's not like there are many yachts sailing west from Hawaii; it should have been pretty easy to spot. Down wind (westish), hum, shouldn't that be the direction the search should have taken? No Gulfstream here, folks; wind and current both run the same way, for the most part. And with notification that it was missing within 48 hours??????
> Nothing probably would have saved the skipper, but still; 1300 miles unseen. Wow.


Things like this happen fairly frequently in hawaii. A year ago a man left from Oahu to sail to Kauai and did not arrive. Two days later the relatives put in a missing persons report to CG. CG did search and asked other mariners to keep lookout. The boat and skipper showed up on big island 10 days later. He said he was just cruising around and as I remember his VHF was out so could not receieve the CG bullitins that were going out over VHF. In a days sail the CG would need to search 10,000 square miles or more- it is a big ocean out there. Also, the planes only take direct routes between Islands, and they are at 30,000 feet- in the white caps in the channels, very difficult to see a white sail boat.


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## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

The mainland is NE of Oahu 2300 miles. To the west there is about 6000 miles of water.
I suppose a boat could float around out there a while without being seen .
Anyway, peeing off the side just ain't too bright of an idea wherever you are. I don't like washing the splatter off the boat either. 
Kind like spittin snoose juice out the winda of the pickem up truck.
If it's too hazardous to stand or move around much maybe you could pee in a bucket with a pour spout and dump it down the cockpit drain and flush it afterward with sea water. Still kind of icky but better than swimming while your boat goes on it's merry way without you.
My condolences to the family.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

christian.hess said:


> nothing like a warm pee bottle to keep you warm in cold weather!
> 
> btw guys Im not advocating peeing over the rail...especially when solo, but its very very common...as are most boats not having holding tanks
> 
> ...


His name was Donald Crowhurst, and he committed suicide, he did not fall over the side while peeing. He faked his round the world sail, staying in the SoAtlantic off Brazil, but his conscience got the better of him. He did develop a one time period Lat/Long navigation system that I used on my circumnavigation whenever possible. He left detailed records of his voyage and thoughts and his boat was found floating, undamaged. Book; The Strange Last Voyage of Donald Crowhurst.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

capta said:


> His name was Donald Crowhurst, and he committed suicide, he did not fall over the side while peeing. He faked his round the world sail, staying in the SoAtlantic off Brazil, but his conscience got the better of him. He did develop a one time period Lat/Long navigation system that I used on my circumnavigation whenever possible. He left detailed records of his voyage and thoughts and his boat was found floating, undamaged. Book; The Strange Last Voyage of Donald Crowhurst.


I know capta, just cause I didnt know the specific names at the moment of typing, its been a while since I had those books in my boat... I remember this book being one of my first reads...the point I was trying to make is that his gibberish in his log book never completely indicated thet he did in fact commit suicide, not only that his body was never found...

the movie made about the golden globe which I went to see at the movies(deep water or something) when it came out not only made me appreciate MOTISSIERS way of thinking but it created a terrible impact on me as a sailor and cruiser...at the time my only goal in life was a solo non stop circumnav and I wanted to do it in a peasron triton...decide to get a career in cooking instead...who knos what would if happened huh?

the other trimaran sailor who was a captain in the royal marines...his story and life was even more shocking to me...seing the photo of him having christmas dinner on his trimaran mid ocean left me marked for a while, HE later commited suicide if Im not mistaken...

again sorry for not being specific with names...doesnt mean my point isnt valid...

you cant fully and positively say someone committed suicide from a logbook and or lack of body...yes its more than likely that his conscious did get him...that was obvious...

ther is also a book in spanish from an argentine who talks a different angle about the whole race...

its not correct to take one side...there are documentaries in spanish for example about the fisherman who saw donald land...very very confusing.

peace


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

capta said:


> His name was Donald Crowhurst, and he committed suicide, he did not fall over the side while peeing. He faked his round the world sail, staying in the SoAtlantic off Brazil, but his conscience got the better of him. He did develop a one time period Lat/Long navigation system that I used on my circumnavigation whenever possible. He left detailed records of his voyage and thoughts and his boat was found floating, undamaged. Book; The Strange Last Voyage of Donald Crowhurst.


I cant remeber what his last entry was but in the movie it seriously brought me to tears...I remeber people walking out thinking they were gpoing to see something like robert redfords new movie

they were visibly shaken by what HAUNTS the human soul

donalds bigges worry beleive it or not was being labeled a loser and fake when returning to england...

it is my beleif that this single fear could account for what later transcribed...
again who knows REALLY

just sad in the end


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## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

It's interesting to me that Crowhurst and Teignmouth have been mentioned in 2 different posts over the past day. If I recall the book correctly, the author also speculated that he might have gone swimming on a calm day and the boat just got too far away before it picked up some wind. Based on his journal, though, his mind (which was brilliant) was going haywire and it didn't seem like he wanted to go back, but neither did Moitessier... It's easy to conjure up dozens of scenarios with no evidence and the person not around to finish the story. Best to enjoy it while you have it while reducing risks to the level you're comfortable with.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

MikeGuyver said:


> The mainland is NE of Oahu 2300 miles. To the west there is about 6000 miles of water.
> I suppose a boat could float around out there a while without being seen .
> My condolences to the family.


It is a big freakin ocean out there:

from:Missing Kauai Sailor Turns Up Safe on Big island | Beyond Honolulu

"Missing Kauai Sailor Turns Up Safe on Big island
January 2, 2012
By Beyond Honolulu Staff
Share0Tweet1Share0Share0Share1In a very bizarre twist, a missing Kauai sailor who had gone missing last week after leaving Kauai headed for Oahu has turned up safe on the Big Island (Hawaii).

Just a couple of days after the Coast Guard suspended its search for the sailor, 66-year-old Ira Foreman of Seattle, Wash. - arrived at Honokohau Harbor on Hawaii island - two weeks late and nearly 100 miles off course but alive.

So, how does the coast guard put together a search that includes a massive four-day search for Foreman covering some 209,000 square miles and involved a MH-65 Dolphin helicopter, a HC-130 Hercules airplane, and two Navy P-3 Orion planes and come up with nothing? Interesting.

Here is how the current story is playing out. Foreman left Port Allen, Kauai, on the morning of Dec. 17 but failed to arrive at Keehi Lagoon as scheduled the next day. He was reported missing a week later.

Search and rescue officials at Coast Guard Sector Honolulu received word Saturday from Foreman's ex-wife that Foreman had contacted her via cell phone, telling her that he had been blown off course by strong winds but was never in any distress.

Officials were able to triangulate Foreman's location based on his call and an aircrew from an HC-130 Hercules plane from Barbers Point Air Station was able to spot a vessel matching the description of Foreman's 36-foot sailboard shortly after midnight. The crew, however, was not able to establish communication with the vessel.

The Coast Guard made contact with Foreman on his mobile phone around 8 a.m. Sunday and Foreman reported his location as 20 miles west of Kealekekua. He arrived at Honokohau Harbor around 3 p.m.

"We are eager to meet with Mr. Foreman to find some answers about this very challenging case," said Capt. Joanna Nunan, commander of Sector Honolulu, in a Coast Guard news release.

As of right now, the Coast Guard has not taken a statement or story from Foreman. I will say this, there seems to be more here than what is being told.

It should be interesting to see how this plays out, however, as of right now, Foreman is alive and well."

From:
http://www.beyondhonolulu.com/the-coast-guard-suspends-its-search-for-a-missing-kauai-sailor/

"The Coast Guard Suspends its Search for a Missing Kauai Sailor
December 29, 2011By Beyond Honolulu StaffShare0Tweet1Share0Share0Share1 
Ira Foreman
The Coast Guard has decided to suspend its search for a missing sailor who mysteriously disappeared when he sailed from Kauai to Oahu earlier this month.

Ira Foreman, a sailor originally from Seattle, departed from Port Allen on Kauai Dec. 17. He was sailing a 36-foot sailboat named Arcturus and was supposed to reach Keehi Lagoon on Oahu the following day. His wife reported him overdue about a week later, late Saturday afternoon.

According to his wife, Foreman was originally sailing from American Samoa to Oahu, but happened to go off-course and ended up at Port Allen instead. He stayed aboard his sailboat at anchor for one day before departing for Oahu. That was the last anyone has seen or heard from him. It seems as though there have been a lot of missing persons reports from the ocean area around Hawaii lately.

The sailboat that Foreman was aboard is being described as having a white hull, white sails, no name on the transom, and four portholes on both sides of the cabin. Foreman reportedly had a cell phone, personal locator beacon, and VHF radio on board.

None of these apparently are helping the Coast Guard. They have searched and area of around 178,000 square miles continuously since Sunday, stretching about 600 miles west of Kauai, by Wednesday.

The search was finally called off Wednesday at 7:50 p.m., pending new information about Foreman's whereabouts, according to Coast Guard spokeswoman Angela Henderson.

Anyone with information on Foreman's whereabouts is urged to call Coast Guard Sector Honolulu at (808) 842-2600.

Not very often does this happen, especially with someone who has a personal locator on board their vessel"


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

this reminds me less of Crowhurst than of Jure Sterk, from the port of Piran, in Slovenia. His 30' sloop "LUNATIK" was found at sea by a research ship, Jure missing. A partial mystery, but likely he fell in and drowned while trying to clean off some bottom growth around the rudder. He was sailing around the world and was 3/4 of the way there:

Sail-World.com : Modern Sea Mysteries: Solving the mystery of Jure Sterk

I found this a poignant story, and felt by turns sad and sorry, then proud and not sorry, for Jure Sterk and how it ended for him.

May have been much the same for our poor fellow here, though on a much shorter voyage. Yet the boat, like a faithful dog waiting for its owner, waits on, drifting..


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> No we all do not pee over the side. What a stupid, unsafe thing to do! Even in Harbour at anchor, or at a marina peeing over the can be fatal with one slip and the bang on the head.
> 
> I hope this guy didn't die that useless and wasteful way.
> 
> ...


Indeed we do NOT. I cannot think of anything more idiotic than trying to balance on the rail to take a pee. For anyone who can't figure this out here's three really complicated ideas: A Cup, A Bottle, A Bucket....geeeeez.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

smurphny said:


> Indeed we do NOT. I cannot think of anything more idiotic than trying to balance on the rail to take a pee. For anyone who can't figure this out here's three really complicated ideas: A Cup, A Bottle, A Bucket....geeeeez.


I am sorry. But I have Shi Shi'd over the side, and while single handing. Not really so dangerous (and I have done it in rough weather). I am clipped in and wrap my arms around the main and aft lower shroud. It is saver than working at the mast or the bow. Maybe it is an unnecessary risk, but it does keep me in shape when I do need to go to the bow or mast. Maybe you will read about me in the paper one day. Oh well, there could be worst ways to die....


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

christian.hess said:


> ther is also a book in spanish from an argentine who talks a different angle about the whole race...


Do you happen to know the name of this book, or the author? I would love to read it.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

The PO of my boat did a single handed circumnavigation. She always had two floating polypropalene lines 100 feet long trailing off each side of the stern. The idea if she fell in, swim to a line and hope you can pull yourself on board.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

gamayun said:


> It's interesting to me that Cromwell and Teignmouth have been mentioned in 2 different posts over the past day. If I recall the book correctly, the author also speculated that he might have gone swimming on a calm day and the boat just got too far away before it picked up some wind. Based on his journal, though, his mind (which was brilliant) was going haywire and it didn't seem like he wanted to go back, but neither did Moitessier... It's easy to conjure up dozens of scenarios with no evidence and the person not around to finish the story. Best to enjoy it while you have it while reducing risks to the level you're comfortable with.


well said...much better put than my words...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Tenoch said:


> Do you happen to know the name of this book, or the author? I would love to read it.


I wish I could remember...I will search...the documentary I saw was again argentinian...it recounted in the words of the fisherman and others who saw crowhurst enter and leave the small bay.

the movie of course is DEEP WATER


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

casey1999 said:


> The PO of my boat did a single handed circumnavigation. She always had two floating polypropalene lines 100 feet long trailing off each side of the stern. The idea if she fell in, swim to a line and hope you can pull yourself on board.


with knots every so often...makes it easier...

I once fell in off panama...untying my dinghy and YANKING(stupid)which was stowed on top of the cabinroof on my little h28, no space anywhere else

the line snapped in my hands and if it werent for the crew that was helping me take the boat up to the canal I would of been shark bait off the perlas islands!

my boat of course had no lifelines being all proper herreshoff and all! jajajaja


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> with knots every so often...makes it easier...
> 
> I once fell in off panama...untying my dinghy and YANKING(stupid)which was stowed on top of the cabinroof on my little h28, no space anywhere else
> 
> ...


She had knots.
Here is video- almost going over the side:
natasza sailing you tube - Bing Videos


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

NICE! well NOT but you know what I mean....

I remember her, she is polish right?


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> NICE! well NOT but you know what I mean....
> 
> I remember her, she is polish right?


Yea,
Here is her website:
Natasza Caban - Solo Around The World


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

nice yeah I read a bunch of her stuff on excerpts on latitude 38, and such...cool you got her boat then?


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> nice yeah I read a bunch of her stuff on excerpts on latitude 38, and such...cool you got her boat then?


Yea, bought it about 4 years ago on her return to Hawaii. She wanted to take the boat back to Poland, but then decide to sell her.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> No we all do not pee over the side. What a stupid, unsafe thing to do! Even in Harbour at anchor, or at a marina peeing over the can be fatal with one slip and the bang on the head.
> 
> I hope this guy didn't die that useless and wasteful way.
> 
> ...


No, I pee over the transom. On a boat with an open transom being connected to the boat trough a line no way I can go overboard. I have just to turn around from the Wheel, grab the lifelines that there go till my waist and have a comfortable pee. I mean offshore not on the marina LOL.

Regards

Paulo


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

people fall overboard and die often, I have heard of many men peeing overboard falling in also A couple in lake ontario jumped off there boat to swim in a lul not realizing the boat was still slowly moving but was moving faster than they could swim, they ended up dying of hypothermia as the boat sailed away. A solo sailor should always be harnessed in.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Probably going over the side is the more frequent cause of dead regarding sailors. I read about several guys that went over the side clipped to the boat and died before someone managed to pull them back, I read about several professional sailors being lost that way and about some incredible stories with an happy ending. Just two:

A sailor on a top solo regata (Figaro II ) went overboard and his boat is found sailing alone. They stopped the race and went all looking for him and in a very black night they managed to find him and recover him alive.

And the most incredible: A famous solo professional sailor (a woman) went overboard at night while sailing solo. Miracolously she had with her a waterproof mobile phone that he had bought some days before and also miraculously she could find a signal sufficient strong to make a call to her mother telling her what happened and roughly were she was. The mother alerted SAR that on the first light of morning was able to find her, still alive.

No, I have not invented the story


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

PCP said:


> And the most incredible: A famous solo professional sailor (a woman) went overboard at night while sailing solo. Miracolously she had with her a waterproof mobile phone that he had bought some days before and also miraculously she could find a signal sufficient strong to make a call to her mother telling her what happened and roughly were she was. The mother alerted SAR that on the first light of morning was able to find her, still alive.
> 
> No, I have not invented the story


Here is arcticle:
Female solo sailor saved by mobile phone after falling overboard - Telegraph

"Female solo sailor saved by mobile phone after falling overboard 
French solo sailing star Florence Arthaud fell off her boat during a toilet break but was saved from the Mediterranean waters by rescuers after she called her mother by mobile phone.

Ms Arthaud, alone on her 10-metre (33ft) yacht The Argade II when she fell overboard, managed to hold onto her phone Photo: GETTY6:55AM GMT 31 Oct 2011
Ms Arthaud, winner in 1990 of the Route du Rhum single-handed transatlantic sailing race, was located and rescued near the island of Corsica thanks to a headlamp and the GPS system on her phone.

A small wave hit the boat and knocked her overboard while she was taking a toilet break without her usual harness, she said.

"I quite simply fell into the water while preparing to take a pee," the 54-year-old told BFM television.

Ms Arthaud, alone on her 10-metre (33ft) yacht The Argade II when she fell overboard, managed to hold her phone, encased in a waterproof covering, above water and call her mother in Paris to raise the alarm. Her mother alerted a rescue team, which set off in search of the sailor.

Ms Arthaud, one of the most respected female sailors in the world, was sailing for her own pleasure when the incident occurred. She spent almost two hours in the water before being rescued, and was suffering from hypothermia."


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

duchess of montrose said:


> people fall overboard and die often, I have heard of many men peeing overboard falling in also A couple in lake ontario jumped off there boat to swim in a lul not realizing the boat was still slowly moving but was moving faster than they could swim, they ended up dying of hypothermia as the boat sailed away. A solo sailor should always be harnessed in.


what I was trying to say before...seems a lot of us need to get out more and experience more...(do not mean this to be condescending) as this is common knowleadge

peeing and falling overboard is the number one cause of death...or "lostness"
simply falling obverboard is next
and heart attacks a close 3rd(since most cruisers are middle aged to retired)
infections that are untreated too

but Im sure Im missing some other causes, they are all close statistcis wise...
during the vendee globes and such every other year or so they lose most often a foredeck guy...

its and an unwritten rule that solo sailors and crewed non stop sailors often agree to without actually written in a contract, basically that if you fall overboard its 90 percent certain you will not be recovered...

just like when flyin cloud was rounding cape horn back in the day, the human loss factor was part of the trip...always someone died...

times have changed SORT OF...


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Towing a knoted line may sound good, but just think about the fact your boat is doing 7 kn by the time you resurface most of that line has passed, if not already gone. You are now in the water possibly dressed and about to grab the line. Do you really think you could hold on and then pull yourself back aboard? could someone do the math there's a lot of forces involved.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

azguy said:


> isn't that like halfway to the mainland


More like 1/2 way to the Pacific Islands - drift is West there.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

As we're talking about peeing over the rail, everyone really must have one of these, if you're going to be solo or not in a position to go below. They work very easily, whether seated or standing, they seal tightly and, as you see, have a female adapter.

I've used them on long aircraft shuttles. Being able to pee, while seated in the cockpit, is more difficult than at the helm of the boat.

20 years ago, I was on a solo cross country trip and tried peeing in a bottle. My leg starts to feel warm and I realize its been dripping down my pants!  I think there is no way I can climb out of the cockpit in a hour, with a massive and obvious wet leg, so I remove my pants and hang them in front of a vent to dry. All I can think of for the next hour is how the accident report would read, if something happened and I was found without my pants on. :laugher


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Well, we went from "everybody" does it, to "many" do it, to "some." Of course, if you are tied to the boat in some way that you cannot fall overboard, then peeing off the side, or over the transom, is a whole different matter. Those who do it without first insuring that they are well secured to the boat--at least, if the boat is moving, and especially if they are alone--are simply morons.

Like someone else said, I certainly hope that the missing captain, who is the subject of this thread, didn't die that stupidly and pointlessly.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

SimonV said:


> Towing a knoted line may sound good, but just think about the fact your boat is doing 7 kn by the time you resurface most of that line has passed, if not already gone. You are now in the water possibly dressed and about to grab the line. Do you really think you could hold on and then pull yourself back aboard? could someone do the math there's a lot of forces involved.


Probably could not hold on at 7 kn, but then again many times when on sail only, the boat will be going in the 3-4 knot range. At that speed, probably doable. And in some cases, like when swimming off the boat to clean the bottom, a few ropes floating in the water would seem to be a good idea.

The problem is not only holding onto the line (an athletic person could probably hold on at 7 knots), but being able to breath. At 7kn probably would not be able to get air due to your "bow wave".


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

I think the Sail Delmarva book recommends the old "cut a hole in the plastic milk jug, tie a line to the handle" trick for single handed sailors. I have done this since I started and it works great. Just throw it overboard and let it drag for a moment, then bring it back.
To get back to the subject, when I read of stories like this, I always have that nagging suspicion that maybe it was a suicide made to look like an accident. I don't know how that is relevant to this case, I'm just saying.


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## casioqv (Jun 15, 2009)

SimonV said:


> Towing a knoted line may sound good, but just think about the fact your boat is doing 7 kn by the time you resurface most of that line has passed


One could rig the line so that a good tug frees whatever steering system you have, and rounds the boat up into the wind.

Still, I also doubt that would be helpful. Personally, I use a jackline and harness anytime I'm in the cockpit or on deck. I equate getting separated from the boat with certain death, and focus on preventing that from happening rather than planning what to do when it does. Towing lines also seems like a lot of unnecessary drag slowing the boat down.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> Probably could not hold on at 7 kn.....


If I did the math correctly, drag in water at 7 kts is 980 lbs.

This is based on my recollection that drag is 20 lbs at 1kt and drag increases proportional to the square of velocity.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I read a stat years ago that the vast majority (60%-70%) of male drowning victims are found with their flies open.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

denverd0n said:


> Well, we went from "everybody" does it, to "many" do it, to "some."


My first time on a sailboat the head broke about six hours out. For the next three days everybody, male and female, peed off the rail. It was a good way to reinforce the importance of the windward vs leeward side of the boat...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Minnewaska said:


> If I did the math correctly, drag in water at 7 kts is 980 lbs.
> 
> This is based on my recollection that drag is 20 lbs at 1kt and drag increases proportional to the square of velocity.


Even at slow speed is a huge force, I saw once a guy being pulled by three others out of the water by the stern...and ending naked on the process: the water took away his pants, well everything

For ones that are really worried about that there is a French that invented a system that will pull you from the water without you making any effort.

I prefer having a system not to fall in the water in the first place and the 1st thing I have done to my boat was installing fixed jack lines. Not ugly ones but very discrete and effective ones.

Regards

Paulo


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> If I did the math correctly, drag in water at 7 kts is 980 lbs.
> 
> This is based on my recollection that drag is 20 lbs at 1kt and drag increases proportional to the square of velocity.


The idea would be to get your body up on a plane, the the force would be a lot less than 980 lbs. I myself have been towed by a sail boat at about 3 knots- no problem, and I would dive down doing this. Of course full foul weather gear would be a problem, best to sail naked.

Friends of mine whom are free divers do this to scout out dive sites:


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> If I did the math correctly, drag in water at 7 kts is 980 lbs.
> 
> This is based on my recollection that drag is 20 lbs at 1kt and drag increases proportional to the square of velocity.


I would think that at any given velocity the drag is primarily based on surface area of the dragged object actually facing the water column (imagine a door dragged sideways vs. on the edge). Drag can be reduced by laying on your back and pulling yourself in slowly. Still, it is doubtful that most sailors could save themselves that way if their boat was doing 7 knots.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

krisscross said:


> I would think that at any given velocity the drag is primarily based on surface area of the dragged object actually facing the water column (imagine a door dragged sideways vs. on the edge). Drag can be reduced by laying on your back and pulling yourself in slowly. Still, it is doubtful that most sailors could save themselves that way if their boat was doing 7 knots.


There's no need to drag behind any sailboat at 7kts.

If you're going to tow a rope behind (knotted or otherwise*) do yourself a *huge* favour and, rather than tied off and chucked overboard, the rope should be run forward under the tiller, tied off to the end of the tiller with light line and then run out through a fairlead on the quarter of your choice. This way the force of someone grabbing the rope pulls the tiller hard over and causes the boat to round up fairly promptly. (A side benefit is that choosing to run the rope out the windward fairlead allows you to use the drag on the rope to help a bit with weather helm. )

If you do this while two-up with your crew asleep down below, the sudden round-up-and-tack is more likely to get him out of his bunk on a dark night than any hail from the water.

If you've got a tillerpilot or a hydrovane for self-steering you can usually rig something similar using the light line to trip the switch instead and cause the helm to go hard over. That's another advantage of tillers over wheel-steering...

* = FWIW, multiple knots risk breaking your fingers and/or your grip on the rope if the boat is moving at any half-reasonable speed. Instead, I've found a single large loop tied in the very end of the rope is enough to grab on to (or even better, get a foot into) with sufficient force to put the boat about.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

You can do an experiment to realize just how little you can hang onto with your bare hands.

Put a 10 year old on an inner tube with a rope tied to it, hold the rope with your hands and start the boat moving.

Caution - wear gloves  

No-one is going to drag themself back to their boat along a line trailing behind if the boat is moving more than a couple or three knots.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

SloopJonB said:


> No-one is going to drag themself back to their boat along a line trailing behind if the boat is moving more than a couple or three knots.


That's why you need to stop it first.. preferably.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

The rope thing would be a great idea for the show Mythbusters to explore. I always wondered about it. 
I tie myself when sailing alone, even when I sail on the Pamlico Sound. The tiller thing sounds like a good idea but it could get complicated with windvane or autopilot setup used when singlehanding offshore.


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## Rezz (Oct 12, 2012)

krisscross said:


> Gatorade bottles come in many sizes...
> But it is a bit harder for the ladies. They need at least a bucket.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

krisscross said:


> The rope thing would be a great idea for the show Mythbusters to explore. I always wondered about it.


Good idea.. might be interesting to see how they tackle it. 



krisscross said:


> I tie myself when sailing alone, even when I sail on the Pamlico Sound. The tiller thing sounds like a good idea but it could get complicated with windvane or autopilot setup used when singlehanding offshore.


Not really.. but it does depend upon the gear you're using. The plan is to get the line to trip whatever it needs to to force an uncontrolled tack so you get a chance to swim/pull yourself back to the boat, work your way alongside and somehow get on board - which brings up the whole lifelines/no lifelines argument again.

I wonder if anyone's tried using the "tack" button on their a/p remote whilst not actually in the boat?..


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Resolute_ZS said:


>


If you put a hip flask on the bottom of that with enough hose to reach your ankle it's called a "Motorman's Friend".


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

SloopJonB said:


> If you put a hip flask on the bottom of that with enough hose to reach your ankle it's called a "Motorman's Friend".


I don't even want to think about that..


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

While I don't think they are necessary for being at the helm, I thought I would also introduce you all to the idea of the condom catheter. Just like it sounds, its a condom with a tube off the end that goes to a bag strapped to you leg. Easily available in med supply stores. Available as disposable or more sturdy washable versions.

We used them for long, typically decompression diving. Naturally, you can't unzip underwater. Some would use them in the cockpit, but only in specific circumstances.

One might consider the idea, if you have a long watch with layers of insulation and overall foulies. Actually, it takes some minor psychological mastery to just start peeing in your pants.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> condom catheter. )


Why can't people use the Head down below? Was it. Built for a joke?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

cause sometimes you just CANT...really! things happen and you cant take a break....especialy alone


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> cause sometimes you just CANT...really! things happen and you cant take a break....especialy alone


Oh twaddle! Utter total twaddle!

I've single handed 15,000 nms or more including into and out of New York, down the ICW, Gibralter straits and much more andI can find the time to go below.

To say that someone can't is just plain ignorant! If people can't sail well enough to piss in the right place they should stay at their marina.

Mark


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

thats your opinion..

and this isnt my penis is bigger than yours contest either but in my 24k nm sailing history I HAVE been in instances where I just cant go down...

that might be becaise I usually sail more simple boats with only maybe one form of self steering, or maybe it might be that I unfortunately got in a situation that I couldnt take a quick break from the helm...who knows? not the point!

man!!!!!!!!

is it that hard to beleive that other people have other points of view?

I mean what if your autopilot failed, and you lost something oevrboard, or your sail got stuck, or whatever I mean there are infinite scenarios...yet you think there will ALWAYS be a chance to go down into the head and sit down and take a pee?

man

its not all about what I think...we must always see other points of view


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## Steve in Idaho (Jun 22, 2012)

One of the more common ways that experienced river runners drown is from foot entrapment. River current running even as slow as 4 mph (< 3.5 knots) can hold a body under if the foot is snagged in a crevice or tangled on a line - even when wearing the typical pfd. One of the dangers that is covered in swift water safety courses is that of entanglement in loose line. The difficulty of reaching and releasing a line from your foot in moving water is surprising to the uninitiated. It doesn't take much current or movement through the water for the drag to become overpowering. For what it's worth - in swift water rescue training, they teach you to float on your back when being pulled in on a line. Rescue pfd vests have the attachment point on the back for the same reason (so you can breath).

How that all translates to the subject at hand is beyond me - but I think I will just avoid falling out.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

steve in idaho and others...perfect example of what you are just talking about just happened...middle aged man...couldnt get back on board his boat...being dragged, holding on for dear life...

http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/lectronicday.lasso?date=2013-11-20#.Uo4wZOKvmu5

this happens a lot on the bay btw...


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## Steve in Idaho (Jun 22, 2012)

christian.hess said:


> steve in idaho and others...perfect example of what you are just talking about just happened...middle aged man...couldnt get back on board his boat...being dragged, holding on for dear life...
> 
> Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude
> 
> this happens a lot on the bay btw...


A lot to think about there. Thanks.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I find it interesting non the less that the editors who are usally very safety oriented found that he was extremely well prepared...I have in many occasions sailed the bay solo and untethered however not on a racing boat flying a chute! just cruising around... if I were in that situation in a stiff breeze I would have a pocket knife on me or at the mast as well...

he could not untangle or release the chute which is what caused the "accidental" gybe and later man overboard scenario...

just some more food for thought...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Oh twaddle! Utter total twaddle!
> 
> I've single handed 15,000 nms or more including into and out of New York, down the ICW, Gibralter straits and much more andI can find the time to go below.
> 
> ...


On the previous boat it was not safe to piss from the boat, you would have to to do that from the side of the boat, from the deck and I always went down to the head but on this one it is a real pleasure to piss from the transom in complete safety and it is actually fun. No fun in going under to take a piss. I can tell you my wife is really envious of not being able to do that

Regards

Paulo


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

We've kind of assumed C-DRIVE's skipper went overboard while unzipped and relieving himself. May not be necessarily so, though the discussion is useful.

My thought is if it's rough enough that you can't get below and use the head without cracking your head open or whatever, then your self-bailing cockpit would likely seeing a steady exchange of seawater or spray, and I'm wearing foul weather gear and boots, with no other crew to gross out, so.....


(and if it's smooth enough that none of the above applies, then that's what the head's for, yeah?)


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> While I don't think they are necessary for being at the helm, ........





MarkofSeaLife said:


> Why can't people use the Head down below? Was it. Built for a joke?


I wasn't insisting otherwise, just offering some ideas to those that may find them useful.

For one, I have been in conditions where I really needed to go, but going below was first going to require vomiting, so I crossed my legs and suffered. Having some option at the helm would be welcome, if not often necessary.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I frequently stand braced against the stern pulpit with one arm wrapped around the backstay when I fly a private signal.

It's a very stable position and I've never had the slightest concern that I might fall overboard.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> thats your opinion..
> 
> and this isnt my penis is bigger than yours contest either but in my 24k nm sailing history I HAVE been in instances where I just cant go down...


You are wrong and pathetic.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> For one, I have been in conditions where I really needed to go, but going below was first going to require vomiting, so I crossed my legs and suffered. Having some option at the helm would be welcome, if not often necessary.


Well, there's always the scuppers.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> You are wrong and pathetic.


Hey, this isn't SA or the sewer - chill - we're only talking about taking a leak.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> You are wrong and pathetic.


Never could figure out why you come across as such an angry dude in most of your posts. You know, since you're supposedly out there "livin the dream" and all.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Just a questions:
We sailors are always concerned about falling overboard. We discuss harnesses and how to pee and all. Why is it power boaters do not seem to have this concern. Ever see a power boater with a harness? I know a bunch of guys that go fishing alone and they do not seem concerned.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

nolatom said:


> We've kind of assumed C-DRIVE's skipper went overboard while unzipped and relieving himself. May not be necessarily so, though the discussion is useful.
> 
> (and if it's smooth enough that none of the above applies, then that's what the head's for, yeah?)


I don't think we have assumed that, just a consideration. Someone that knows the man could might be able to tell us how he relieved himself while sailing and offer insight. In reality anything could have happened. I looked at some past marine weather data and he could have been dealing with 30 knot winds and 15 foot breaking seas when he was lost. Many things could have caused him to be lost.

Agree that the discussion is good to give others ideas.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

casey1999 said:


> Just a questions:
> We sailors are always concerned about falling overboard. We discuss harnesses and how to pee and all. Why is it power boaters do not seem to have this concern. Ever see a power boater with a harness? I know a bunch of guys that go fishing alone and they do not seem concerned.


I think a lot more of them die than sailors too. It seems that most of the "Lost at sea" news stories around here are people fishing from small boats.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> ....Why is it power boaters do not seem to have this concern. ......


Most stinkpotters never the dock. The ones that do, only on calm, sunny, flat water days.

Then again, this one did and I'll bet he is never without a pfd again.

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/07/...ter-11-hours-with-no-life-jacket-i-won-i-won/


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> Well, there's always the scuppers.


A good argument not to have teak sole in the cockpit.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

casey1999 said:


> Just a questions:
> We sailors are always concerned about falling overboard. We discuss harnesses and how to pee and all. Why is it power boaters do not seem to have this concern. Ever see a power boater with a harness? I know a bunch of guys that go fishing alone and they do not seem concerned.


again nobody has to listen to me or agree with me.
Hopefully not all my posts are WRONG or PATHETIC but my take on it is this:

There is not much to tend to on a powerboat...

especially slow cruisers...you basically cruise at a certain speed, mostly on autopilot at a set course(people have rammed into islands like this recently) they have a meal cause its flat riding not at an angle...life is sweet...

no sails, lines, rigging, no constant 30 degree angles that help you fall overboard either...just an anchor to release and pick up...and well of course maintaining the engine(s) they are for the most part more enclosed or higher up than most sailboats so they are drier, and the need to be tethered only happens when on long journeys....and nasty weather...

while cruising down the pacific coast of northern america, for every 10-20 sailboats or so there was one motorboater that cruised...these mostly had small little sails high up on the aft decks.. to help with the rolliness but all the ones we saw and talked to nobody ever used a tether...

these are big boats however, Im not speaking about smal fishing boats and speed boats but cruising powerboats...

cheers

ps. they also have for the most part 2 or 3 heads to chose from to go pee or whatever! jajaja


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> A good argument not to have teak sole in the cockpit.


peeing in your foulies in rough weather is like a right of passage...both my dad and grandfather said they did it to warm them up a bit...of course in rogh weather with the amount of water all over the place your half liter of pee is like a drop in the ocean....

just like when squalls hit I take the opportunity to take a fresh water shower....take advantage!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> peeing in your foulies in rough weather is like a right of passage...both my dad and grandfather said they did it to warm them up a bit.....


Can't say I've tried. However, I can't say I recall how many times I needed to pee in a wet suit, as I was unable to surface in time. Very gross, but one has to do what one has to do. Requires a serious washing after. Have to acknowledge the simultaneous relief from an overfull bladder and the warmth when on a deep dive is, well, satisfying. No, I meant gross. In a good way? I guess its just gross. Sort of.


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

I thought peeing in a wetsuit was SOP.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

sorry Im not familiar with SOP what does that mean?

and yeah dives and peeing is well gross but I prefer it over swimming pools for sure!

I also found that fish tend to get nearer to you as I think the warm water attracts them...jajaja


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SOP. Standard Operating Procedure. 

No one ever admits that.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

You mean that isn't how your supposed to warm up a wetsuit before a dive?


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

SloopJonB said:


> You mean that isn't how your supposed to warm up a wetsuit before a dive?


Um. Not "before". Now *during* a cold-water dive after being well-hydrated as always to minimize risk of getting bent, ah, well....

Next question ;-)


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

christian.hess said:


> thats your opinion..
> 
> and this isnt my penis is bigger than yours contest either but in my 24k nm sailing history I HAVE been in instances where I just cant go down...
> 
> ...


I think if it were me and I was in that situation a simple solution is just pee on the cockpit floor. Simple matter of flushing it off with a bucket when you get a chance. Simple and safe.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

miatapaul said:


> > Originally Posted by christian.hess View Post
> > thats your opinion..
> >
> > and this isnt my penis is bigger than yours contest either but in my 24k nm sailing history I HAVE been in instances where I just cant go down...
> ...


Doesn't get much simpler than something like a painter's cup... attach a light lanyard to dip it in the drink for a rinse...










A plastic dinghy bailer could serve a double function, as well...










Never ceases to amaze, or amuse, how complicated some can make something as simple as taking a leak...


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## bfloyd4445 (Sep 29, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> No we all do not pee over the side. What a stupid, unsafe thing to do! Even in Harbour at anchor, or at a marina peeing over the can be fatal with one slip and the bang on the head.
> 
> I hope this guy didn't die that useless and wasteful way.
> 
> ...


if pee dosent go over the side were does it go then in the bilge?..or do you think it should be filtered and used again?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

my point simply got lost with all the negativity...my point was yeah basically to get out of dodge you cant always go downstairs...

i have peed in gatorade bottles, water bottles(with aim) jajaja in my foulies, over the side, when at anchor over the rail I mean there are a million ways...yes even into the wind...what nobody has been drunk enough to forget to not pee in the wind?

I agree with all above there are many things both commercially sold and available and made up

dinghy racing sailors do it all the time...its just another point of view...
when I used to race lasers all I did was jump in the water come right back up and get sailing again

dont know what all the hooplah is about

Im glad I know how to use the ignore button on here know at the end of the day...life is too short to argue all day on something as peeing or the possibilty of someone dying while peeing and possibly falling overboard

whatever the case maybe Im trully sorry someone died and had his boat still sailing...may his soul rest in peace...

I havederailled this thread too much and for that I apologize

carry on


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Do you guys have seen this?

*Two people have been rescued from cold Puget Sound waters after falling out of a sailboat.
Seattle Police Det. Renee Witt said Saturday that two people fell off the boat before 4 a.m. and were unable to get back on board. Other people in the boat threw ropes and life jackets to help them stay afloat, but Witt says the people were in the water for a while before friends decided to call 911.*

Crews rescue 2 who fell out of sailboat | HeraldNet.com - Northwest

There are some that are thinking in a way to get back alone to the boat if they fall on the water but it seems that some not even with help can get back on board and that is not the first time that I have heard this kind of stories. Those have been lucky but others have died.

Regards

Paulo


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

PCP said:


> Do you guys have seen this?
> 
> *Two people have been rescued from cold Puget Sound waters after falling out of a sailboat.
> Seattle Police Det. Renee Witt said Saturday that two people fell off the boat before 4 a.m. and were unable to get back on board. Other people in the boat threw ropes and life jackets to help them stay afloat, but Witt says the people were in the water for a while before friends decided to call 911.*
> ...


Probably the strongest argument in favour of sugar scoop transoms.


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## quandryron (Mar 16, 2006)

What I find amazing, and basically unknown to us landlubbers, is that the simple act of relieving one's bladder over the rail can get you killed. I'm thankful that I found this out before I bought a boat than after, possibly the hard way. Makes one wonder what other little known lifesaving tidbits of knowledge I have yet to learn.


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