# Stainless steel backing plates, thoughts, where to buy?



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Has anyone had s/s backing plates made for deck hardware? If so, where? A local chandlers or a machine shop? I'm up to making a proper drawing for them if necessary.

I do have access to the equipment to make them myself, but I'm not sure I'll be able to get a good finish.

If anyone has a recommendation for a place to make them, especially in the SF bay area, that would be great.

I ask because I want to bring some lines back to the cockpit and not all of the hardware I want to use has backing plates available off the shelf.


----------



## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Svendsens, in Alameda.


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

SlowButSteady said:


> Svendsens, in Alameda.


Actually I did a little searching and found this stuff at McMaster Carr - 12" square sheets, mirror polished finish.

So all I have to do is cut it into the right size pieces, and drill holes.

McMaster-Carr

Edit : hit "reflective" on the left to see the stuff I'm referring to.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

MarkSF said:


> So all I have to do is cut it into the right size pieces, and drill holes.


If only it were that easy! Polished S/S looks very nice but it's a [email protected] to work with. Cutting & drilling it will wear out your tools faster than you can believe. At a minimum you will need a drill press and a bandsaw with a metal cutting blade. If you try to make them with a hand drill & hacksaw or jigsaw you'll almost certainly end up marring the finish you paid for

I recommend using aluminium - it can be polished to look good and can be worked with wood tools. You will have to polish it once in a while to keep it looking good but its out of the weather so it's not bad.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Aluminum can make sense but if in a visible area stainless would look better. The stainless you linked to at McMaster Carr is expensive in the thickness you need for a good backing plate, and you still have to have it cut and drilled. I agree with Sloop it is not a job for one not well equipped. 

Go to a shop that works with stainless. Every large city has several and they may have scraps of the correct thickness, they can cut and drill for you matching the hole pattern in the hardware. If you can't find one call a big restaurant and ask who does their stainless work - most commercial kitchens are all stainless.

I have cut and drilled some stainless but for anything of any thickness I use a welder who works with stainless on a regular basis.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Mark, I'm with mitiempo on this. Stick to stainless and let a shop cut them up for you. If you can bring in actual templates, i.e. cardboard dummies actual size, it will make their job easier & your bill a little smaller. Give them an extra week or two so they can make it when things are slow, and you might be able to trim a little more off the bill too.

If you really want to do the machining yourself...a local shop's scrap barrel may still be the cheapest source for stock. Although given the price of stainless anything these days, I'm wondering about trolling the thift stores for old skillets next time I need some.

I wonder what alloy skillets are made from? <G>


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

If you send Garhauer a file/drawing they will make what you need...


----------



## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

Use G10 instead, it is also available from Mcmaster Carr and you can cut it more easily and it is probably stronger than SS.

I am considering making G10 stanchion mounts from 1" G10 stacked and glued together tapered at the edges. Drill a 3/4" hole in middle with a hole for set screw and then use simple SS tubing for the stanchions. Make G10 plugs for the tops, G10 inserts for the holes for the lifeline wires. Would there even be a small market for such? Its an easy app for an unused CNC mill.


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

The new hardware will be next to some existing hardware that's backed with polished stainless plates. I'd really like to use the same for appearance's sake.

Actually one piece of hardware is made by Garhauer, the rope clutch. I wonder if they have an off-the-shelf backing plate. I'll drop them an e-mail.


----------



## Lake Superior Sailor (Aug 23, 2011)

Stainless comes in different grades so be careful what you buy, some is magnetic. All of it is too much work to cut & shape; So I used aluminum that worked for me..Dale


----------



## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

If aluminium would do, I would use it. It is vastly easier to work and is more forgiving. It does not hold its finish well, but you will be able to make those backing plates with a drill, a jig-saw and a file.

Stainless is very hard indeed, and very difficult to work it.

Also, stainless, it is very prone to corrosion cracking, particularly when oxygen-depleted, and the very hard nature of it will mean that it propagates cracks easily.

It is a pretty material, but I am suspicious of it.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

You can get all the stainless shapes at a number of online metal dealers for a good price. Use 304 or 316. All can be welded very nicely with "Missileweld" rod with a little practice. As far as getting a high polish, if that's what you're looking for, it is easily done with a da and some fine paper. Sandpaper can be obtained down to 12000 grit. Soapstone will give you a glass finish. I personally do not know why everyone thinks stainless needs to be polished to a high degree. Tests of surface corrosion between polished/matte/304/316 in sea water environments show little difference. I fabricated all new rigging for my boat; new chainplates, masthead, bow plate, and lots of other parts out of 304 and 316. Some I polished, some not as much. Have seen no appreciable difference. 

The tools you need are an abrasive chop saw(or metal-cutting band saw), a hand grinder, a grinding wheel, a good drill/drill press with cobalt bits, a flat belt sander, a da sander, some elbow grease if you want to obsess over polishing, and a stick welder with D.C. capability. If you have a gas-shielded welder, all the better.


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Really I want to polish it because it'll be next to another polished plate! I have access to all those tools apart from the welder, which actually I don't need as I'm just making flat plates.


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

A waterjet place is your friend as i did the whole boat including the SS mast step and electric pannel out of drops (leftovers from big jobs) for zero as they like me


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

MarkSF said:


> Really I want to polish it because it'll be next to another polished plate! I have access to all those tools apart from the welder, which actually I don't need as I'm just making flat plates.


Sure, if it's next to something you need to match. The flat plates are easy to polish. The pieces with right angle welds are a pain. I smoothed mine down to, I think, 600 grit, not real shiny but smooth. I have a small 3" da sander that works well. Also used the old plates for some really good backing plates. I moved the shrouds outboard and increased them from 1/4" X 1 1/2" to 2". Was also able to slightly beef up the masthead and bow fitting which was showing signs of crevice corrosion. All my rigging and attachment points are now new. Paying someone else to fabricate the stuff would surely have been prettier but prohibitively expensive. There are also people who electropolish s.s. but I was not able to get a quote from anyone, I guess because it was not a big enough job.

Oh, and by the way, small chainsaw files are handy for tight spots. You'll also need some mill bastards for rounding edges.


----------



## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

I'm in the process of doing a similar job myself. What started as a "simple" job of fabricating new teak stand-off blocks for the pad eyes to which the boarding ladder attaches midship on both sides. 

Once I got the old ones off, it was clear that new backing plates were gonna be a necessity, since the through bolts were not even close to being straight. 

For the backing plates, I bought some 3/16" plate from McMaster-Carr.

Long story short, I bought some 1/8" stainless from McMaster-Carr. I marked the outline and cut it a little proud with a hacksaw, then to final size on a bench grinder, using it very gently at the slowest speed to keep the steel from heating up. I drilled the bolt holes with a 1/2 VSR drill, using first a 1/8" then 1/4" cobalt bits.

Polishing definitely was the most time consuming part of the project. Starting with 100 grit paper, and progressing through 150 emery cloth, then silicon carbide wet/dry in 220, 320, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1500 and finally 2000. Followed that with some white rouge on a buffer wheel on the bench grinder. Final step was to hit it with some Prism Polish. They are now sporting a mirror finish.

Here's what I learned:

1. If you don't mind investing a pretty sizable amount of time, this can be done with hand tools alone. A bastard file probably wouldn't have been too much slower than the bench grinder for truing up the edges.

2. When you drill the plate, use cobalt bits. Drill at a very slow speed with a pretty good amount of force on the drill. If you aren't seeing a nice little corkscrew of material coming out of the new hole, all you are doing is heating up the metal -- which will harden it even further. As long as you go slow, cutting oil isn't necessary. After the first couple of holes you'll get a feel for the right speed/pressure combo.

3. Unless you are looking for a dead-flat surface, use a DA or RO sander for the initial sanding. After that, wet sand with a small sanding block.

Of course, if Garhauer can do this for you at a reasonable price then it'll probably be the best money you spend this week.


----------



## j34035 (Nov 10, 2006)

I second the Garhauer suggestion. I have always had good luck with these guys. But if you need something cut out of flat stock, find a machine shop that has a water jet for metal cutting. Supply them a drawing preferably in autocad, and they can cut parts very accurately with no tooling marks or heat distortion. You can even lay out holes to be cut instead of drilling them. Cool to watch too!

DD


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

PorFin said:


> I'm in the process of doing a similar job myself. What started as a "simple" job of fabricating new teak stand-off blocks for the pad eyes to which the boarding ladder attaches midship on both sides.
> 
> Once I got the old ones off, it was clear that new backing plates were gonna be a necessity, since the through bolts were not even close to being straight.
> 
> ...


+1 about drilling slowly with cobalt bits. My drill press, even on the slowest speed still tends to heat too much. I do use some cutting oil. The cobalt bits are also pretty easy to sharpen. Have also had some luck with good sharp titanium bits in a pinch. Don't worry about s.s. heating up when you work it. Heat treating does not harden s.s. Congratulations on a mirror finish! It's a LOT of work. Wish I had your patience but I usually give it the "good enough" classification below 1000 grit.


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I make a good living bringing dead SS back to life 














































And you cant even remotely begin to cover the cost of drill bits and grinding wheels for what the water-jet place charges as its not like there super busy these days


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Nice work Tom. I like your idea about plates under the stantion bases. May have to put that on the LONG to-do list. Wish I had thought of it when recoring the decks and all the hardware was off.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

smurphny said:


> There are also people who electropolish s.s. but I was not able to get a quote from anyone, I guess because it was not a big enough job.


I've had quite a bit of electropolishing done. It isn't very expensive. It is a corrosion resistance process though, it doesn't "polish" the metal in the way this discussion has been talking about it. The surface will come back bright but no smoother that when you started. grinding, sanding and polishing with a wheel and abrasives is the only way to do that. I wouldn't bother with it for inside hardware like backing plates.

I spent $150 or so to buy a proper long shaft polisher - like a bench grinder with extra long shafts. If you are restoring a boat it will be one of your best friends. You can achieve professional finishes on all metals very easily - it is a filthy process though, best left for outdoors. I find it a very "Zen"ish process - mindless, but satisfying as the shiny surface appears out of a nasty looking but sound piece of hardware.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Have often thought about buying a polisher for finishing instruments like guitars and fiddles. I use powder abrasives but it's a lot of work to raise a good finish. Never thought about using one for s.s. sailboat parts. I've never used one. How do they work for getting into corners of odd shaped pieces?


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

smurphny said:


> Have often thought about buying a polisher for finishing instruments like guitars and fiddles. I use powder abrasives but it's a lot of work to raise a good finish. Never thought about using one for s.s. sailboat parts. I've never used one. How do they work for getting into corners of odd shaped pieces?


Basically, they don't. For tight corners and the like you have to get smaller buffs - cone shaped and so forth. That is actually the hardest part of buffing any hardware. Pieces like stanchion tubes, chainplates etc. are easy.

I don't know how it would work on a musical instrument though - my experience is they are pretty heavy duty - I've never even tried to use it on varnish. Perhaps a loose single sewn buff could be used with rouge or something finer. The lightest material I've ever done is plexiglass - the edges of cut pieces, and you have to be VERY careful not to melt them.

FWIW, my polisher and my pressure washer are by far my most frequently used power tools. My wife loves her copper pots after I'm done with them.


----------



## bwindrope (Feb 25, 2007)

Having made a very large number of stainless backing blocks for Aeolus I second much of what has been said on this thread. However, one thing I haven't seen mentioned about aluminum is perhaps so obvious it gets overlooked. I have personally removed numerous aluminum backing blocks from my Gulf 32 and found them corroded anywhere from slightly to completely due to the presence of stainless bolts and washers. The original aluminum backing blocks underneath my traveler mounts had disintegrated around the old stainless bolts and washers so completely that they were literally not performing any useful function. Here is my blog post showing the new backing blocks:Stories of Aeolus- Our Gulf 32 Pilothouse: New Harken traveler installed!

Since all my bolts are stainless, I have gone to all stainless 316 backing blocks, purchased either from onlinemetals.com or mcmaster carr.

I


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

This has been a very interesting thread!

Today I spoke to a mechanical engineer friend, and he suggested that a sheet metal shop could actually punch the bolt holes in s/s plate.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

SloopJonB said:


> Basically, they don't. For tight corners and the like you have to get smaller buffs - cone shaped and so forth. That is actually the hardest part of buffing any hardware. Pieces like stanchion tubes, chainplates etc. are easy.
> 
> I don't know how it would work on a musical instrument though - my experience is they are pretty heavy duty - I've never even tried to use it on varnish. Perhaps a loose single sewn buff could be used with rouge or something finer. The lightest material I've ever done is plexiglass - the edges of cut pieces, and you have to be VERY careful not to melt them.
> 
> FWIW, my polisher and my pressure washer are by far my most frequently used power tools. My wife loves her copper pots after I'm done with them.


 Nice job on the compass. It looks like the same one I have atop the pedestal. I know they use long shaft polishing wheels in the commercial guitar shops like Taylor. A buddy of mine, a prof. luthier, got a tour of their factory. One of the jokes is how everyone splinters a guitar now and then when losing grip using the polishing wheels. They sell them in the tool departments of guitar suppliers but I don't know if they are the same as yours: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Special_tools_for_Finishing/Guitar_Buffing_Arbor.html They ain't cheap.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

MarkSF said:


> This has been a very interesting thread!
> 
> Today I spoke to a mechanical engineer friend, and he suggested that a sheet metal shop could actually punch the bolt holes in s/s plate.


Absolutely.. if you can find a place to punch the holes you'll be way ahead. Much cleaner hole. When I still worked in industry we had access to all that kind of stuff (except the polishers... pulp mills didn't much care! )

I remember the sticker shock the first time I had to actually go buy something SS.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

smurphny said:


> Nice job on the compass. It looks like the same one I have atop the pedestal. I know they use long shaft polishing wheels in the commercial guitar shops like Taylor. A buddy of mine, a prof. luthier, got a tour of their factory. One of the jokes is how everyone splinters a guitar now and then when losing grip using the polishing wheels. They sell them in the tool departments of guitar suppliers but I don't know if they are the same as yours: STEWMAC.COM : Guitar Buffing Arbor They ain't cheap.


Very similar to mine. I had a motor so I just bought the arbor. You can get a Baldor that is a motor with a long protruding motor shaft at each end - the arbor & motor are one piece. It costs a lot less the the arbor in your attachment. You can get Chinese ones - the same setup for 2/3 the price of the Baldor. I paid about $100 for my arbor. If I had to do it again I'd pay for the one piece type.

I'd like to know more about polishing varnish - do you have any directions to sites that have info on that - type of abrasives, type of buffs, speed of buffer etc?

Does it give you a type of French polished finish?

P.S. you don't splinter any hardware but you sure have to go on an Easter egg hunt sometimes if you let it catch a piece wrong!


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Have never used one of these polishers. The finish they're dealing with is a nitrocellulose lacquer, somehow made more flexible than the cabinet grade variety so they can expand and contract without spider-cracks. I use brushed-on oil-based varnish for violin finishes which is the traditional violin finish. Have both sprayed and brushed the nitro and then finished by hand. Rubbing out with 12000 cloth and then rottenstone makes a mirror finish. The nitro is very thin and takes at least 5 coats to work it. I know some good instrument builders use French polishing but I have never tried it.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

bwindrope said:


> However, one thing I haven't seen mentioned about aluminum is perhaps so obvious it gets overlooked. I have personally removed numerous aluminum backing blocks from my Gulf 32 and found them corroded anywhere from slightly to completely due to the presence of stainless bolts and washers. The original aluminum backing blocks underneath my traveler mounts had disintegrated around the old stainless bolts and washers so completely that they were literally not performing any useful function.


I've never had this problem. To my mind there shouldn't be a corrosion problem with a backing plate unless the deck side isn't properly sealed.

Were you having problems with leaks through the deck that led to the dissimilar metal corrosion?


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Jon, even without leaking alu & s/s are notorious for not getting along. No leaks needed, just condensation or atmospheric humidity, and they often self destruct. "Proper" construction in marine or aviation shops will always, always, always, use separators and goo in between the two because they simply can't be trusted. 

Check your boat tomorrow morning, you'll find the plates have all fallen off overnight just to spite you. Or, they're waiting for an even loess convenient moment.


----------



## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

I went out to my local metal salvage pace and got a nice chunk or SS. I've used it for backing plated for all my stanchions and a number of cleats. Didn't cost all that much. With a hack saw, metal file and drill you can cut it, make the edges and corners fair and have a brushed finish that doesn't look all that bad. Doesn't take much money only time.


----------



## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Zip cut disks on an angle grinder makes ss easy to work. I've even showed up at the scrap yard to cut out the piece I want. At a buck a pound you don't want too much waste. Much industrial scrap is already pretty polished .


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

The posts about getting the stuff sheared and punched reminded me of a summer I worked in a machine shop in high school. I had forgotten about the 100 ton multi-cutting machine they had - sheared flat sheet, angle iron, round bar and punched holes like it was hard butter. 

If you have ever worked S/S with hand tools, you will recognize that it would be worth spending the money to have it done. I certainly will in future - there is no question that S/S backers are better, stronger and better looking compared to aluminium. I think I'll just take care of finishing the edges and polishing them in future.


----------

