# Budget, livingaboard, boat size..



## CaptRican (Dec 15, 2015)

I am in the process of buying my first sailboat. 

I am right now looking at a Pearson 323, and i am also looking at a Pearson 35. 

The P35 is a bit less expensive than the P323 as far as price is concerned, but the P323 looks great, but the P35 owner is much more motivated than the P323..

I am concerned that the P35 being bigger will chew up more of my money in repairs and maintenance in the long run. 

Is this an accurate concern? Does 3 feet really makes that much difference?


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

-----
I am right now looking at a Pearson 323 said:


> About 8.07% - give or take lol. Or 09.37% if you look at it another way.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

The P35 is a quite different boat than a 323, The 323 is a much more modern boat (more of a fastish cruiser), but the 35 is more of an old school cruising boat.



















The 323 is likely going to be a faster boat, and point a bit better. I think there may be a reason the P35 is more motivated. I don't think the 35 will cost that much more to maintain, as it is quite a bit narrower, and there is only a about a 200 pound difference between the two so they are not really that far apart in size. I say go with the one in better shape, better sails, and what interior layout you like. The main thing to sway you would be if you need a very shallow draft(say Florida ICW), as the keel/centerboard design of the 35 is going to have almost a foot less draft but both are shallow draft boats. I believe the 232 likely has a nicer interior with more real wood, as most of the 35's I have seen seem to have mostly laminate interior, or the laminate tends to be more fake woodish.


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## CaptRican (Dec 15, 2015)

The P35 is ready to sell like now. The P323 is not, but the P323 is immaculate and in pristine condition with a lot of nice equipment. But, it has a gas engine and i am on the fence about it. I have read extensively about both pros and cons of both type of fuels. I am also looking into a circuit that if the blower is not turned on first that the engine can not be started. I am also thinking about a sniffer or sensor. My fingers are cross....thanks for your advice.


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## CJT (Jan 31, 2016)

I love the interior and the look of the 323 and the numbers look okay... the ballast displacement ratio is not as high as I would like to see but I suspect that loaded for cruising there would be more interior "ballast". In my experience it can happen that more exterior ballast can mean a less comfortable ride and time at anchor. I like Shaw's designs and the 323 keel and skeg design look very good for open water. Same vintage as my 28 and so far I have been pleased with the sturdiness and finish of her construction. If I were to ever size up it would be to a 323.

Don Street doesn't trust centerboard boats because in certain rare situations the boards can be damaged dropping off waves (Carlton Mitchell of Finnistere fame thnks that is a lot of hooey) and I would think that a centerboard would be just one more thing requiring attention.

Maybe a centerboard cruising boat owner would have something less bookish and speculative too add.


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## CaptRican (Dec 15, 2015)

@FSMike are you stating that there is an increase in maintenance expenditure of aprox. 8% to 9%? for the larger P35


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I don't feel that a Pearson 35 and a Person 323 are anything alike other than that they both were build by Pearson.

The one that is going to cost you more is the one in the worst condition. The size isn't even going to factor into the cost issue really. The only time you would even be able to tell the slightly long boat is costing more is on the things directly billed against length, which would quickly be wiped out by one more old boat "project".

But here is what I really think: If the question between the maintaining/using costs between Pearson 35 & 323 are of concern DON"T GET EITHER AS YOU CAN"T AFFORD IT!


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

CaptRican said:


> @FSMike are you stating that there is an increase in maintenance expenditure of aprox. 8% to 9%? for the larger P35


No I think he was being sarcastic that the boat is 8 to 9% bigger.



Don0190 said:


> I don't feel that a Pearson 35 and a Person 323 are anything alike other than that they both were build by Pearson.
> 
> The one that is going to cost you more is the one in the worst condition. The size isn't even going to factor into the cost issue really. The only time you would even be able to tell the slightly long boat is costing more is on the things directly billed against length, which would quickly be wiped out by one more old boat "project".
> 
> But here is what I really think: If the question between the maintaining/using costs between Pearson 35 & 323 are of concern DON"T GET EITHER AS YOU CAN"T AFFORD IT!


I don't agree at all. In fact I think it is a wise question to ask. I think there will be more costs in involved maintaining the 35, but are more related to centerboard, condition and older boat than size. But I doubt it will be that dramatic. How often do we see people who look at much bigger boats and don't understand the way costs escalate at a greater rate than the length. So it is a quite reasonable question and in NO WAY INDICATES THAT THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT! In fact it indicates the exact opposite that someone is being cautious and likely can afford it.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

In reality, unless there are things drastically wrong, the cost of maintenance is about the same. If the boats are equal in quality, I would go for the boat that has the most interior living space. Interior space is among the many reasons I purchased my old tub of a Morgan 33 OI - I have lots of room inside and lots more storage than many boats considerably larger in size. Additionally, the wider beamed boats seem to handle a lot easier, especially if you intend to be single handed much of the time. 

JMHO,

Gary


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

travlineasy said:


> In reality, unless there are things drastically wrong, the cost of maintenance is about the same. If the boats are equal in quality, I would go for the boat that has the most interior living space. Interior space is among the many reasons I purchased my old tub of a Morgan 33 OI - I have lots of room inside and lots more storage than many boats considerably larger in size. Additionally, the wider beamed boats seem to handle a lot easier, especially if you intend to be single handed much of the time.
> 
> JMHO,
> 
> Gary


I agree, and the layouts seem to have different advantages. The 323 seems to have a much nicer salon and a dedicated chart table, but the 35 seems to have a bigger head and more galley storage, so I guess choose the one that fits your needs better. I personally would prefer the more modern design (certainly not a Ultra Light Weight by any means) and more importantly better condition. I wound up with a boat that was not on my list at all just because it kind of fell in my lap so to speak. It does not suit all of my needs, as no boat will, but makes me happy for now. The other consideration is that unless you are 99 years old, this does not have to be a one time purchase. Just like few people die in the same house they bought when they were 20, if you feel you need more space/performance/capability/comfort/whatever you can upgrade. I plan to in three to four years, and I expect to not loose too much money on my boat.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

miatapaul said:


> I don't agree at all.


That's OK, even though for the most you did agree.

My first boat was 39' overall, my current boat is 43.5' overall. It has cost about $200/yr more to have the 43.5' than the 39' boat. If I weren't able to afford the 43.5' I doubt having the 39' boat would be any different.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Are you going to stay in marinas? Then the extra feet will be an ongoing cost.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I recently looked into a P35 as a replacement for my P30.

The 35 is a good, tough boat but it has a lot of overhang, and a LWL that is equal to my current boat. This means it would not be fast for its length.
The 35 is a "Skinny Sheila." If you're living aboard, this makes for cramped, frustrating conditions. Like I said, lots of overhang so the extra 5 feet isn't very usable.
Then there's the centerboard which is one more thing to maintain. Unless you're planning on cruising in very shallow areas, you don't need this added maintenance hassle.

For your stated purposes, I'd choose the 323.


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

Doesn't anyone care about how either boat actually sails? I realize it's a liveaboard siutu but, it *IS* a sailboat. If you want to live close to a marina and then go travelling about, buy a motorhome and camp in the parking lot. You should start with which one sails better IMHO but, then again, I am just a "lake sailor" and as most here like to say, we don't really sail anyway.....


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## CaptRican (Dec 15, 2015)

travlineasy said:


> In reality, unless there are things drastically wrong, the cost of maintenance is about the same. If the boats are equal in quality, I would go for the boat that has the most interior living space. Interior space is among the many reasons I purchased my old tub of a Morgan 33 OI - I have lots of room inside and lots more storage than many boats considerably larger in size. Additionally, the wider beamed boats seem to handle a lot easier, especially if you intend to be single handed much of the time.
> 
> JMHO,
> 
> Gary


I did consider the Morgan 33 OI, and it is a nice sailboat and i agree, with tons of space, but i wanted something a little faster, with a little better ability to move against the wind, or windward (sorry still learning) I just got divorced, so it is just me. The P323 is 10 feet wide and so is the P35, so space is a compromise. I do like the Morgan 33 OI though, i have heard a lot of good things about it, tough as nails, spacious and comfortable.


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## CaptRican (Dec 15, 2015)

TQA said:


> Are you going to stay in marinas? Then the extra feet will be an ongoing cost.


I want to be away from marinas, i plan to install a watermaker, solar and generator so i don't have to come into a marina all the time, except for replenishing food and fuel. But yes footage is a concern because of fees. I am planing for the long haul, have to look at everything.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

CaptRican said:


> I want to be away from marinas, i plan to install a watermaker, solar and generator so i don't have to come into a marina all the time, except for replenishing food and fuel. But yes footage is a concern because of fees. I am planing for the long haul, have to look at everything.


I would choose the 323 for obvious reasons... As long as the 323 is the one with less to upgrade and not a project boat... You'll do well with the plans going forward as you are planning. Will the boat be in the SouthEast/SouthWest or NorthEast/NorthWest as this may be a factor to consider also.


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## CaptRican (Dec 15, 2015)

cb32863 said:


> Doesn't anyone care about how either boat actually sails? I realize it's a liveaboard siutu but, it *IS* a sailboat. If you want to live close to a marina and then go travelling about, buy a motorhome and camp in the parking lot. You should start with which one sails better IMHO but, then again, I am just a "lake sailor" and as most here like to say, we don't really sail anyway.....


I want to sail, i want to move up and down the coast and the Caribbean. Sailing and learning how to sail are important to me. But, unfortunately i have budget constraints that restraints me to size and type. I am trying to get for my situation, the best sailboat that my budget can afford.

I agree with you about the RV and camping, but that's not what i would like to do. I do not want to live in a marina, and no insult intended to anyone who lives in a marina and if i did offended anyone, my apologies.

It is a compromise...between ability to sail and living space. I understand the P323 has good sailing qualities?


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## CaptRican (Dec 15, 2015)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I recently looked into a P35 as a replacement for my P30.
> 
> The 35 is a good, tough boat but it has a lot of overhang, and a LWL that is equal to my current boat. This means it would not be fast for its length.
> The 35 is a "Skinny Sheila." If you're living aboard, this makes for cramped, frustrating conditions. Like I said, lots of overhang so the extra 5 feet isn't very usable.
> ...


All points well taken...Thanks


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## CaptRican (Dec 15, 2015)

guitarguy56 said:


> I would choose the 323 for obvious reasons... As long as the 323 is the one with less to upgrade and not a project boat... You'll do well with the plans going forward as you are planning. Will the boat be in the SouthEast/SouthWest or NorthEast/NorthWest as this may be a factor to consider also.


Thank you for your vote of confidence. It is not a project boat. I will be in the Florida keys and moving around the Caribbean.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

CaptRican said:


> Thank you for your vote of confidence. It is not a project boat. I will be in the Florida keys and moving around the Caribbean.


:cut_out_animated_em

Excellent plans so far... Best of luck with your choice. :2 boat:


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## CaptRican (Dec 15, 2015)

Are there any P323 owners among us who would like to throw in a few cents? I would like to hear from owners also and their experiences with the P323. 

Another question that i have is about surveyors. How do you go about getting a surveyor who is not in someway associated or knows the broker? I read that you should get a surveyor who is disassociated from the broker? But if you get a surveyor from the area they are going to know the broker since they work basically side by side. 

Should i get a surveyor from out of town?


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

CaptRican said:


> I did consider the Morgan 33 OI, and it is a nice sailboat and i agree, with tons of space, but i wanted something a little faster, with a little better ability to move against the wind, or windward (sorry still learning) I just got divorced, so it is just me. The P323 is 10 feet wide and so is the P35, so space is a compromise. I do like the Morgan 33 OI though, i have heard a lot of good things about it, tough as nails, spacious and comfortable.


I only have a 100-percent jib, therefore, in lighter winds, I'm not nearly as fast as the guys with the 150-percent jibs sailing in the same area. And, about 35 degrees is as tight as I can get on the wind, but that's just fine with me most of the time. My top speed, ever, was 10.2 MPH with a 20-knot wind and no tide on a broad reach - I was a happy camper that day.

As for sailing ability and comfort, especially cruising, I love the Morgan 33 OI. When I sail on my friend's Catalina 30-T rig, his boat is often deeply heeled over in conditions where I may heel 5-degrees at most. And, while offshore, I can lock the helm, trim the sails and go fix lunch without the boat changing course - it tracks like it was on a railroad track. That full keel makes a huge difference, even in a following sea. My daughter loves riding on the Morgan because she no longer experiences motion sickness like she did when I had a Catalina 27.

Another advantage with a wide beam and shallow draft (4-feet), I can slide down the ICW without much fear of running aground, while boats with just another 1.5 feet of draft would be stuck in the goo.

Before jumping in with both feet, I suggest taking some day cruises with folks that own each of the models you're seriously considering. Have them put the boat through it's paces, see how it handles in rough conditions and take a close look at all the features, both interior and exterior. Having owned 14 powerboats and 2 sailboats, I can assure you that it's the little things that can make a huge difference.

Good luck on whatever you decide upon,

Gary


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

What is your budget by the way? Knowing your budget, help can be given on other possible boats that would work for you. Just cause it is available, in your budget, and close by, does not mean it is a good fit. Speed is not a bad thing either.

As far as surveyors, you should be able to Google that.



travlineasy said:


> Before jumping in with both feet, I suggest taking some day cruises with folks that own each of the models you're seriously considering. Have them put the boat through it's paces, see how it handles in rough conditions and take a close look at all the features, both interior and exterior. Having owned 14 powerboats and 2 sailboats, I can assure you that it's the little things that can make a huge difference.


+1 on that.


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

A; Get the biggest boat you can afford to fix up

B; Get the smallest you can live on

C; Get the cheapest to insure and slip/moor.

Next!?


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

deltaten said:


> A; Get the biggest boat you can afford to fix up


Do you want to sail it or work on it? That whole "it's a sailboat" thing again......

Yes I realize this is tongue in cheek but, it is definitely something to keep in mind.


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

true dat

I prferto sailfalso; to the detrimenet of my repair list
lol


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## CaptRican (Dec 15, 2015)

Thank you all for your input and support. I have made my decision and i am concentrating in purchasing a P323 as my first option and i am looking at others too. 
Good sailing to all!


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I recently looked into a P35 as a replacement for my P30.
> 
> The 35 is a "Skinny Sheila." If you're living aboard, this makes for cramped, frustrating conditions. Like I said, lots of overhang so the extra 5 feet isn't very usable.
> 
> For your stated purposes, I'd choose the 323.


I thought that too, but according to sailboat data they are the same beam, but it does seem to be carried a bit further forward and back. They may have the number wrong in the 323 data though.



CaptRican said:


> Thank you all for your input and support. I have made my decision and i am concentrating in purchasing a P323 as my first option and i am looking at others too.
> Good sailing to all!


Great, keep in mind some sellers may appear to be less motivated, but anyone actually having a boat listed likely has some real motivation to sell, they just may be hiding it. Of course it can really be the spouse that is the motivator, so you may try to involve them if possible!


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## Windward Star (Jul 26, 2015)

Looking at sailboatlistings.com there are a few offered, one in NY with gas engine but others listed with diesel. One in Morehead would be worth a look, new listing according to date stamp at bottom. One in Charleston looks good as well but date stamp says 2012.
I like Pearsons, own one myself but have you considered the Catalina 30? I owned one of those as well with the wing keel and really liked it, just wasn't large enough for two to be permanent liveaboards at a marina and working full time jobs. Our P424 serves that purpose very well with plans to coastal cruse in the not so distant future.
We purchased and sold our '88 Catalina for about the same price as I see the average 323's asking price. You could get a much newer boat with probably more interior space than the 323 for the same price, and great support from user groups and Catalina.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Windward Star said:


> Looking at sailboatlistings.com there are a few offered, one in NY with gas engine but others listed with diesel. One in Morehead would be worth a look, new listing according to date stamp at bottom. One in Charleston looks good as well but date stamp says 2012.
> I like Pearsons, own one myself but have you considered the Catalina 30? I owned one of those as well with the wing keel and really liked it, just wasn't large enough for two to be permanent liveaboards at a marina and working full time jobs. Our P424 serves that purpose very well with plans to coastal cruse in the not so distant future.
> We purchased and sold our '88 Catalina for about the same price as I see the average 323's asking price. You could get a much newer boat with probably more interior space than the 323 for the same price, and great support from user groups and Catalina.


Keep in mind most of the boats on sailboatlistings are already sold. Make sure to check dates on the listing and anything over a couple of months is suspect.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

At second glance, my comment regarding "fix" wasn't necessarily about a DIY boat.
Considered what it will cost to maintain/repair/replace items on a larger boat/ Cost out small winches vice large. Price 110. s.f.. sails vs 500 s.fsails.
You *will* be replacing items at some point. Costs rise exponentially with linear footage increases


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

CaptRican said:


> I want to be away from marinas, i plan to install a watermaker, solar and generator so i don't have to come into a marina all the time, except for replenishing food and fuel. But yes footage is a concern because of fees. I am planing for the long haul, have to look at everything.


If you make the big investment in a fixed diesel generator solar makes less sense. If you like the idea of solar hold off on the generator. If your idea of a generator is one of the horrid little Honda or Yamaha buzzers to supplement solar that is a different thing.



CaptRican said:


> Another question that i have is about surveyors. How do you go about getting a surveyor who is not in someway associated or knows the broker? I read that you should get a surveyor who is disassociated from the broker? But if you get a surveyor from the area they are going to know the broker since they work basically side by side.


You are going to be hard pressed to find a surveyor who doesn't know a broker and vice versa. Pick your own based on your best assessment and good recommendations. I have yet to see any indication of collusion. There is just too much for all parties to lose.



travlineasy said:


> As for sailing ability and comfort, especially cruising, I love the Morgan 33 OI. When I sail on my friend's Catalina 30-T rig, his boat is often deeply heeled over in conditions where I may heel 5-degrees at most.


Lots of people over-canvas their boats. Too much heel means a slower boat. Put up less sail. Flatten the plan when the wind is up.

That isn't to see that a full keel does not contribute to directional stability. It does. Sometimes that is good and sometimes it is not.

Not relevant to Gary's posts but if you are looking at a boat that was built with an Atomic 4 gas engine that has been repowered with diesel your surveyor or separate engine surveyor should look carefully at the quality of the installation job.


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## CaptRican (Dec 15, 2015)

Thank you to those who have positively contributed and thank you for your replies and advice. 

I was ready to go see the sailboat (P323) then it was suggested to me that i should ask for the last survey. So I found out who the last two owners were and have hit a wall. No one has an old survey of the sailboat. 

When i asked the broker for a survey he gave me the "proprietary" "belongs to" speech and told me that there was no survey available. I was interested on a Valiant 32 and the owner emailed me his old survey without me even asking for it. I was interested also on a Morgan 33 OI and the broker just sent me the old survey via email, but on this P323 no survey...

I really wanted a Valiant and had even spoken to Stanley Dabney who helped me a lot with knowledge and a list of sailboats to look at. But, the Valiant 32 was out of my range unless i was willing to drop big bucks and time to fix her. I want to sail, not work on a sailboat on the hard for months on end so i passed on that opportunity. 

Am I being overly cautious here?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

CaptRican said:


> Am I being overly cautious here?


I think so. An old survey is just an old outdated snapshot in time that only saw what the picture taker looked at.


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## CaptRican (Dec 15, 2015)

Don0190 said:


> I think so. An old survey is just an old outdated snapshot in time that only saw what the picture taker looked at.


I am trying to find out if this particular sailboat was damaged and what were the repairs? Can you find that out through a survey? I found the owner who restored the sailboat and the second owner both had nothing but praise for the sailboat.

I am still on the fence about it, i keep reading about the gas engine; some said don't buy it others said, get an sniffer, and do great maintenance keep an eye on it and you will be fine. Then someone else told me that a lady in one of the islands in the Caribbean blew herself up with a gas engine and that there is a memorial? Then someone else said, that it didn't happen?

The atomic for what i have read runs forever, easy to maintain, easy to find parts and i already know gas engines. 
My take is that i have a jetski and i sit on top of a gas tank full of gasoline anyway. It has not blown up yet. Is that a good comparison? I am attracted to the gas engine because of the obvious.. 
I never thought that buying a sailboat would be this exhausting and scary.


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## Windward Star (Jul 26, 2015)

Take your time, be patient and do as much research on the boats you are interested in as you can. Eventually something will become available that is the right boat at the right price. I wouldn't put too much faith in an old survey, as Don said, it's just a snapshot at that time and based on that surveyor. Surveyors miss things, I was pointing out problems that the surveyor was missing when I purchased my current boat and later found very obvious things that he missed. The more educated you are the better. Get Don Caseys book "inspecting the ageing boat" if you haven't already and learn about the boats you're interested in. For me, I had already made up my mind about which brand, model, and range of year of manufacture before I considered putting in an offer on the boats I've purchased. At some point, you'll feel less scared having more knowledge.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Well just don't get it if it is going to be so stressful.

BTW - far as the engine thing, the boat hasn't burned up yet.


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