# Help on Head/Holding Tank Odor



## MarkSailor (Oct 17, 2010)

I need help getting rid of holding tank/toilet odor. When I bought my boat I didn't notice any odor problem in the head. (But admittedly, it was winter.) As the weather warmed up, I noticed a problem with odor. I added West Extermin-odor and then pumped the tank, without any noticeable difference. Even now, with the tank emptied, the problem seems to be getting worse, not better. (I mostly daysail, and don't use the head much.) I don't see any evidence of a spill or leak from the head or the plumbing. This is my first boat big enough to have a head and holding tank, but I am pretty sure this problem is beyond the normal smell. I have seen some posts that suggest putting vinegar in the head, but the chemicals I got at West Marine say they are caustic (which I assume means alkalai), and I am afraid of the interaction if I mix the two. Should I pump raw water into the head to dilute and empty the tank again? How many times? Any suggestions would be appreciated.


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## dmurray (Aug 8, 2002)

Your problem is most likely the hoses. Sewage sits in them and permeates the rubber material. I just changed what looked like my original rubber hoses (1987 CS 30) with the new style white plastic hose from WM. The smell went away immediately.

This job can be a bear from reports I have heard from others. It was only a one hour job in my boat. A friend loaned me a heat gun to soften ends and make sharp bends. I really only needed it for one bend. Be careful with the heat. Low setting and only enough heat to accomplish the goal.

Double clamp all ends.....you knew that 

Best of luck solving the problem.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

MarkSailor said:


> I need help getting rid of holding tank/toilet odor. ......


This needs clarification.. is the odor that of sewage or is it a rotten-egg H2S type of odor that is strongest when you first flush the head after a week or so?

If the latter it doesn't matter how clean your tank is or isn't.. this odor is coming from stagnant water in the intake line. Organisms in the water die there due to lack of circulation and decompose causing the smell.

It's unpleasant, to be sure, but once flushed through it rarely returns until there's an extended idle time. Not sure what you can really do about it other than to replumb and flush with fresh water (hard on supply) or arrange to somehow inject a bit of bleach into the suction line between uses.

If it is persistent 'sewer' smell then dmurray is likely on the mark.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Get hold of whats her names book. Peggy somebody or other. Headmistress. Getting rid of odours etc. She is on the money.

That said, before you leave boat pump a capful of white vinegar through the system and let some stand in the pipes and bowl. Even if you get some smell after a period of time it will disappear after a couple of flushes.

As DMurray says, the you beaut no odour hose really does work but not when dem widdle bugs die in the pipe.

edit - Peggy Hall ... Sanitation


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## T37SOLARE (Feb 1, 2008)

Peggie Hall, headmistress...

One note, check to make sure your holding tank vent isn't clogged. Other than bad hoses, the number one culprit is a clogged vent fitting.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Hoses...hoses...by the good ones..they are worth it. If you dont want decomposing organisms smell from bay/ seawater...only use fresh waterin your head.

Dave


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## captflood (Jan 1, 2011)

GREETINGS EARTHLINGS I agee with TDW but I use some cooking oil as well as the vinigar it helps keep everything well lubbed. If that doen'nt get shut of the pong try and use babby's bottle steriliser (Milton is a British brand) it is very good indeed gor killing whiffs or pongs . GO SAFE.


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

The Head Mistress - SailboatOwners.com

The basics:

clogged vent

seawater in inlet line - cure: connect head sink outlet to head intake and use fresh water on just the last flush of the day


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## fordo (Jul 3, 2006)

Was the holding tank retrofitted or did it come with the boat? In my retrofitted boat a PO installed the tank so that only pump out the top half of the tank. After one season I removed the tank (very carefully as it was half full). I drained and cleaned it with every chemical I could think of and, after a winter in my garage it still stank. I replaced the tank, head and hoses. no smell 3 years later.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Peggy Hall has it right on. You may already have permeated hoses. If so, you will only fix this by replacing them. She has a test: wrap them in hot wet towels and let stand. Remove the towel and smell them. If you sense the odor you have in the boat, its swap out time.

That said, I'm a devout follower of her methods. Never ever put chemicals, oils or anything other the toilet paper in the head. EVER.

Flush with substantially more water than seems necessary. You must move everything to the holding tank, so nothing but water sits in the lines. Check the lines to be sure they are routed without low spots that collect stuff.

Here's a tip I found brilliant. If you use a macerator to pump overboard (outside 3nm of course), you should flush 5 gallons of water as soon as it empties, which is roughly 5 full bowls, then pump that overboard as well so that sewage doesn't sit in the outlet line. 

She describes that adding oil to lubricate your head will float on top of your holding tank and prevent aerobic bacteria from growing. You need aerobic bacteria, which does not smell, to break down contents. Without healthy aerobic bacteria, the anaerobic bacteria flourish and they are what stink.

Flushing a couple of bowls of fresh water before you leave for extended periods will prevent the sulphur smell from building in the lines between your head and holding tank. Its also flushes anything that may be lying in the lines. However, the line from the thru hull to your pump will still be loaded with seawater and will stink on your first flush. I push it through as a matter of opening the boat and it goes away. 

We only clean with Raritan CP, which is safe for proper bacterial growth. It also has a pleasant smell that will overcome the sulphur smell on that first pump. A few drops, fill with stale water and flush. Its over.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Picking up Stu and Chef's suggestions re fresh water, I guess to simply pour a bucket of fresh into head after turning off salt water inlet would be an easy and simple solution.

Using all fresh water seems terribly wasteful.

(we use Lavac type head, maybe Jabsco type would not appreciate the pump itself going dry.) 

Then again if you don't have a Lavac (or similar) they get a hearty recommendation from me.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

tdw. I don't follow. How does that get the saltwater out of the line between the hull and the pump? Are you trying to pump after you shut the thru hull? It doesn't seem like that would really empty it. Also, that would kill an electric pump, I would think.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> tdw. I don't follow. How does that get the saltwater out of the line between the hull and the pump? Are you trying to pump after you shut the thru hull? It doesn't seem like that would really empty it. Also, that would kill an electric pump, I would think.


I follow your reasoning. It would still end up with salt water in the intake and yes it would murder an electric pump.

Not properly thought through on my part and I was thinking of a Lavac manual not electric. Remember though that outlet pipe on Raven (the old girl) is much longer than inlet. Also remember that a Lavac head's pump is past the head not before and does not from part of the head as such.

Really, sorry, I was typing (probably still am) without thinking it through.


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## almca (Apr 20, 2011)

If you don't use the head all that much you may want to try an idea that avoids the holding tank altogether! We had ye olde style pump out head but no tank in our boat (1964) that was never designed to take one. Much reading of the aforementioned guru and...we ripped out head and bought an airhead! (Composting Toilet) If it will fit in your space it may solve many issues. We have no probs with smells even through the Australian summer and no visits to pumpout. Six months of use by family of 5 and guests for weekend and daysails have yet to need to empty solids (that may prove more confronting than the little urine tank). Even the 5 year old can use it.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Almca, welcome to SailNet. Always good to see new Oz blood. 

Let us know something about yourself. Sydney Sydney or Broken Bay Sydney ?

Whats the boat ?

The womboat and her crew sail out of Balmain.


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## tomperanteau (Jun 4, 2009)

I would tend to agree with the hoses being the culprit.

I just completely rebuilt my head. I started with a new toilet and holding tank, but quickly found that there was still lingering smell. I decided to replace the old hoses, and that took care of all. Now the head smells like nothing but the perfume of the soap in the soap dish.

Another consideration, and although it may seem wasteful, is to flush with fresh water. As others have said, sea water carries critters into your system that will die in the hoses and holding tank, causing additional odors. We have our sink plumed to the intake of the head, so after we wash our hands, the gray water is used to clear the toilet. Works like a charm and NO smells.

One of my next projects is to install a really small holding tank (1 gallon) for the gray water from the sink so that it can be used for the toilet. MUCH cleaner than sea water.


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

Minnewaska said:


> tdw. I don't follow. How does that get the saltwater out of the line between the hull and the pump? Are you trying to pump after you shut the thru hull? It doesn't seem like that would really empty it. Also, that would kill an electric pump, I would think.


What you do is to connect the head sink outlet to the head inlet. At the END of the cruise, for LAST flush, you close the seacock and fill up the head sink, pump that through the head. With that and KO, odors disappear.

All three pages of this might be interesting to you: Holding Tank Failure & Fresh Water to Head from the Sink in the Head FLIX


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## almca (Apr 20, 2011)

Thanks for the welcome, We are Broken Bay Sydney, Hence the incentive to avoid pumpout stations as I think Pittwater has one accessible to a yacht like ours or a big sail out to sea! We didn't want to organise our sailing around sewage! Boat is Malveen (not Malveena which is a very lovely restored one moored near you) 1964 Buchanan 34.
Our boat smells much sweeter now all the old hoses are out. Will seal off the old seacock at next antifoul, the Airhead is a bit bulkier in the head compartment, though no hoses or tank, so will not fit in every boat.
Alice


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The only problem I have with flushing sink gray water is introducing the soaps into the holding tank, which could harm aerobic bacterial growth ( the good and desirable bacteria ). Otherwise it's a cleaver solution to that first flush when returning to the boat after a few days of work. That said, I don't find it any trouble to throw in a few drops of CP and just flush the stagnant stuff away. It does not recur while we are aboard, so doesn't need an ongoing solution here.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

almca ... which is presumably why the trail of holding sludge extends most summer weekends from Refuge Bay to Barrenjoey . It really is the most appalling situation made worse by the removal of the garbage barge. Where do you like to hang out up there ? Smith's is our favourite.

minnewaska .. of course you could cheat and let that last flush of grey water only, simply go direct.


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

Minnewaska said:


> The only problem I have with flushing sink gray water is introducing the soaps into the holding tank, which could harm aerobic bacterial growth ( the good and desirable bacteria ). Otherwise it's a cleaver solution to that first flush when returning to the boat after a few days of work. That said, I don't find it any trouble to throw in a few drops of CP and just flush the stagnant stuff away. It does not recur while we are aboard, so doesn't need an ongoing solution here.


WADR, it's not gray water, it's fresh water (we keep our head sink clean). So let a little fresh water from the head faucet run into the sink, maybe about halfway. Turn off the faucet. Pump the head.

Where's the soap in that?


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

In my opinion, 99% of the odor comes from the intake sea water. Basically what happens is that the microbial growth (aerobic) in your intake lines turns anaerobic and the byproduct is a sulfur gas that smells like rotten eggs, if not something worse. No amount of hose changes to your holding tank will fix that. And that smells seems to linger in the boat forever!!!!

We went to a different system. Use it at your own risk, because it does have negatives. But we put in a strainer at the Thull. Note, it has to be close to the Thull, not way away from it. Use a plastic basket, not Stainless. Go buy the Clorox Tank dropins from your local supermarket. Put these in the strainer basket (you may have to break them up some to fit). You will likely find your tank problem gone within hours, if not an hour. What happens is this totally erradicates all biological acitivty from the intake lines all the way to the head holding tank. You can mix this with most chemical head treatments. It does not hurt the lines or tanks on a Catalina (at least late model) as I checked with mfg of both long before doing this and the concentration of Cl is way too small. I would not use the pool drop ins as they are much more concentrated. You may very well find your boat smells boat-show new. Our boat has no smells.

Now the negatives:

If you use a manual head, you will rebuild it every 6-12 months. The Cl causes the rubber to swell and deteriorate. You can prolong some with Mineral oil in the head. We put a table spoon or so in every few days-week - even with electric heads. We have all electric heads on board now and have not had to rebuild or had any issues once. THis system works best with electric heads, but we used it with manual heads for 2-3 years. It was worth it to us tio rebuild manuals as we preferred a little pain every 6-12 months over the smell every day. It may not be to you.

Next issue is that if you cannot use a biological tank treatment. THis wipes out ALL flora. Truth is that after 15 years of boating, and using the Raritan and other products for years, we gave up on them as simply too expensive and not really effective. THe old fashioned, cheap West Marine blue tank treatment pretty much seems the only way to go for us.

Hope that helps.

Brian

PS As your smell came in the summer not the winter, I think your problem is intake lines and not sewage lines. Winter =little bio growth in lines. Summer us when things like to flourish!


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## ahab211 (Jan 6, 2008)

How about fresh water sulphur odors? Any cheap remedy?


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

ahab211 said:


> How about fresh water sulphur odors? Any cheap remedy?


hope your fresh water does not stink. if so, you have to cl fresh tank. i cannot remember amount, but think it is 1c bleac: 10g water. let sit 1 hour. flush with h2o. then .25cbleach:10 g h20. but will need to double check on different thread.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Stu Jackson said:


> Where's the soap in that?


I was referring to tomperanteau's post where he uses the water after he washes his hands. Not creating a scuffle, just saying that the soaps could negatively affect good bacterial growth in the holding tank.


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## turbulicity (Jan 24, 2011)

I have one of these holding tanks:

Super Premium Holding Tanks

We have a guy that comes in weekly with a boat and a big tank/pump to pump-out holding tanks in the marina. His trailer broke last week so he skipped. Our near full tank sat for an additional week and the smell started. Definitely not hose permeation. I have a single vent line but it is 1-1/2" dia. So quite oversized. Still, a lot of smell came out from the vent, making its way into the boat. I also have a vacuum relief valve on the tank which I think let some odor out.

I wasn't using any treatments and I think a big factor in getting the smell was the fact that the tank is in my engine room. Earlier we had gone out for sailing and motored a little. It was a hot day and the engine room was baking. So we had a nasty brew so to say. Nothing much I can do about the holding tank location but I decided to fix my broken engine room blower. I also started using the odorlos thing after the pumpout. If the pump out guy doesn't show up, I am taking the boat out to a pumpout station myself. Admiral still mad at me.

Another problem is that the pumpout guy won't let me rinse the tank with fresh water and flush again. Maybe I should just get him on the two-week schedule and go out every other week myself for a proper flush and rinse and flush.


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## tomperanteau (Jun 4, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> I was referring to tomperanteau's post where he uses the water after he washes his hands. Not creating a scuffle, just saying that the soaps could negatively affect good bacterial growth in the holding tank.


Hey, call me Tom when you insult me.

Seriously though, I have a small holding tank (six gallon) and we pump it out often because we are always going several miles out into the ocean when we take the boat out. Not a problem, but you are correct that you need the bacterial growth in larger tanks where there needs to be a breakdown of the material.


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