# Do not pick up illegal migrants in the Med!



## MarkofSeaLife

Be very very careful cruising the Med.

Saving someones life may mean the end of yours.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/rescued-migrants-hijack-cargo-ship-european-officials-say


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## Minnewaska

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*

The article doesn't make the circumstances very clear. I take it the migrants were armed, but it doesn't say so. What I hate about all media these days (liberal and conservative) is they only seem to want to make their point.

It's an interesting issue. Imagine being faced with a makeshift raft between Cuba and FL. Clearly it's occupants are at risk. You might be inclined to take them aboard, but then what. I'm sure I'd hail the Coast Guard, who would undoubtedly respond. However, since they never made it to shore, I don't believe they can "take advantage" of the asylum rules. Rules, btw, that should not be eliminated in the US, but are in desperate need of amendment. Those and the birth rite citizenship laws were written for extremely different purposes and are being flatly gamed right now.

In any case, if the occupants of the raft were astute enough, they may not want your help.


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## MarkofSeaLife

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*



Minnewaska said:


> It's an interesting issue. Imagine being faced with a makeshift raft between Cuba and FL. Clearly it's occupants are at risk. You might be inclined to take them aboard, but then what. I'm sure I'd hail the Coast Guard, who would undoubtedly respond.


What makes you think you would be allowed to radio the coast guard?

On this sinking raft is 30 people including 10 babies and children under 10 some of which are in the water hanging onto the over crowded raft. You see at least 1 dead body floating in the water. On the raft are at least 5 women in high distress, and at least 10 men distressed and who's only thought is to save the lives of their families. 
The adults know if they are returned to the previous country they will be shot. 
To kill you and your wife and crew so they can get to asylum safely means nothing to them.

What do you do?

Take them on board where you risk your life? 
Ring the Coast Guard/Navy? They say you are in International Waters and you are not to bring them into their country.

What do you do?


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## RegisteredUser

Regarding US and Cuba...wet foot dry foot ended a few years ago


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## PhilCarlson

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*

That's a really difficult call.

It's easy to sit here and say I wouldn't take them on board, but when faced with watching a horrific situation unfold everything changes. Even if one is truly powerless to help, the emotional urge to do something can be overwhelming and lead to bad decisions.

I really don't know what I'd do.


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## john61ct

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*

There are various systemic solutions to prevent this problem from arising in the first place.

But a discussion of those various options wojld likely not be productive in an online forum.

And not welcomed by the owners of the platform.

But let's just say, the ideas expressed by the title and in the "news item" linked to

I find pretty reprehensible.

A key question - would you risk your life to save that of others?

And should your perception of their ethnic origin or religion be a factor in your answer?


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## hpeer

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*

John,

Whether it "should" or not aside, the fact is it does. That kind of thinking is deeply programmed into our selves through our long evolutionary history. Like how a hawk silhouette will scare a chicken. It pops up in the best meaning people as in "wack a mole." We have to determine how to deal with it on an institutional basis but understand that on a personal basis it is a very human reaction.


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## krisscross

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*

In the struggle of life and death, choosing your own life over that of others, is a natural choice. I would radio their position to authorities and maybe waited at safe distance for them to show up. Desperate people do very desperate things. A drowning man will take you down, it's an instinct.


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## john61ct

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*



hpeer said:


> That kind of thinking is deeply programmed into our selves through our long evolutionary history.
> &#8230;
> a very human reaction.


It is also human nature to murder a man because we covet his wife.

Our species' progress has always been a battle against our more primitive instincts.

That said, the perception of ideas of "tribes" and "races" having different values of human life is to me a socially taught construct, not genetic.


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## RegisteredUser

Must be a no wind day.
Becalmed in cyberland...


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## denverd0n

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*



krisscross said:


> A drowning man will take you down, it's an instinct.


One of the very first things that you learn in life-guard training!


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## Seaman_3rdClass

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*



john61ct said:


> But let's just say, the ideas expressed by the title and in the "news item" linked to
> 
> I find pretty reprehensible.


So, when are you sailing to the Med to help ferry the migrants across?


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## Seaman_3rdClass

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*



john61ct said:


> It is also human nature to murder a man because we covet his wife.
> 
> Our species' progress has always been a battle against our more primitive instincts.
> 
> That said, the perception of ideas of "tribes" and "races" having different values of human life is to me a socially taught construct, not genetic.


The foundational religious text of the West clearly places a different value on members of one's tribe vs outsiders. Do you consider it to be socially taught constructs or reflecting human nature?

Do you value your own life, or that of your family, above those of strangers who may end up taking it?


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## paulk

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*

To be sure they're illegal do you have to check their passports first? Or can you tell by just how they look?:captain:


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## PhilCarlson

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*



paulk said:


> To be sure they're illegal do you have to check their passports first? Or can you tell by just how they look?


How can they be illegal in international waters?


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## hellosailor

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*

john-
Bear in mind that Key West is only one of many places that exists because wreckers intentionally lit false lights, to lure merchant ships onto the rocks. Death and wreckage being expected and intentional.
Piracy, fake distress signals, scams are not limited to land or sea. By all means be merciful--but remember there *are* tigers in the night.
The problem is that the logical solution to the "refugee crisis" is for some powerful players to...Well, step in, declare war, throw the evildoers out, and impose civilization of some sort. What Kipling called "the white man's burden". 
Oh yeah, that phrase goes over well these days. So, how do you address the root problem without getting crucified? Or do you just charter free flights for anyone who wants to come in? That's got some problems too...


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## hpeer

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*



RegisteredUser said:


> Must be a no wind day.
> Becalmed in cyberland...


Close, laundry.


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## MarkofSeaLife

Poops, I didn't mean the thread to be proactive re the Cuba situation.

So I changed to title to say 'the Med'. There the situation is quite abnormal and a humanitarian disaster from the Syrian war and militancy in North Africa. 

On a trip across the Atlantic in 2010 from the Caranry Islands to the Caribbean I snuck into the skippers briefing of a large rally heading west. There was a stark warning to watch for boats between Africa and the Cape Verde Islands. 

In the Med itself the distance between the north African coast and Italy is quite short and an attractive option for some.
Also there's been stories of traffickers taking peoples money and then when offshore jumping into another boat leaving the unfortunates in non seaworthy boats without food, water of means of navigation. 

Standing off and contacting the 'authorities' sounds like the method that I would have to do. 

Its sad this is what we have come to. 

Mark


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## hpeer

I fear we will see worse, much worse.


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## ThereYouAre

Story of a sailboat coming across refugees in distress in the Med.


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## MikeOReilly

So... I read the thread and then went back to the original news story. I was then surprised b/c I think the premise of the thread is not supported by the article.

Specifically, the official is quoted as saying this is "the first act of piracy on the high seas with migrants as alleged hijackers." So, despite the many years of human misery and desperation that has washed its way across the Med, this is the _only_ time such an event has happened.

If the news story is meant as a guide, then the thread title should have been _"Do pick up illegal migrants in the Med!"_

All mariners have a duty to provide assistance to fellow boaters if we can do safely. The assumption that illegal Med migrants might try and kill you is not supported by this story, or by the history of this tragedy.

That said, I don't know what I'd do if I came across a raft of 120 people. I'd certainly be wary of them, but I think I would try and provide what assistance I could safely, recognizing my boat has limited capabilities, and can only hold maybe dozen people at the very most.


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## RegisteredUser

Today, right now, my favorite color is red.
What should it be...my fave color?

Please take social judgement bait....and go troll other waters, or back to high school. Reborn teenies....with a voice

An exercise with no productive end


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## Seaman_3rdClass

MikeOReilly said:


> That said, I don't know what I'd do if I came across a raft of 120 people. I'd certainly be wary of them, but I think I would try and provide what assistance I could safely, recognizing my boat has limited capabilities, and can only hold maybe dozen people at the very most.


A metaphor for the situation as a whole.

Your choices in such an encounter would be: 
1) to render assistance and be swamped and/or hijacked, in which case you may end up swimming with the fishes yourself (as you said, your boat has limited capabilities, and you're taking up valuable space/food/water).

2) sail on, giving them a wide berth.

Essentially, those were the choices of the protagonist in the German movie discussed in another thread here, with some additional complications which arose from her indecision between choices #1 and #2.

You are saying that your choice would be #1, but from the clauses conditioning your assistance on the capabilities of your boat and the realities of Med crossings by migrants, I suspect your revealed preference would be #2.

Sure, if you came across a small dinghy with a handful of women and children, you'd render assistance. What if the migrant boat instead contained many dozens or even hundreds of young men, as most of them do?
Would you do pull up next to them to explain you can only take 12?

Also, you're assuming that the quoted official is correct and truthful about the history of such incidents. Given the obfuscation of this situation by European officials and the media, I wouldn't make that assumption.


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## boatpoker

I am quite sure that regardless of the risks Sharon and I would not be capable of bypassing anyone in dire straits.
We Have involved ourselves in other circumstance at some cost to us but we sleep with clear concience.


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## capta

When I frequented the waters at the time of the boat people from Cuba & Haiti, other than giving them water and standing some distance off, the policy was to call the USCG and leave the situation to them. If you took them aboard your vessel, then you were responsible for their repatriation at your expense.
Kinda goes against all the traditional "laws" of the seas, but what are you supposed to do? Pay for their rehabilitation and medical costs, then fly them back to their home on your nickel?
Great fishing under their rafts, though.


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## Rmaddy

The question isn't so much what would you do if you came upon refugees dying on a raft at sea, but rather what would you do if you and your family lived in a place so terrible that the prospect of dying on a raft at sea was not a deterrent to giving it a shot. Refugees are not "illegal". They are refugees. A little compassion out there on your private yacht.


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## capta

Rmaddy said:


> The question isn't so much what would you do if you came upon refugees dying on a raft at sea, but rather what would you do if you and your family lived in a place so terrible that the prospect of dying on a raft at sea was not a deterrent to giving it a shot. Refugees are not "illegal". They are refugees. A little compassion out there on your private yacht.


Whether I was operating a ship, sailing boat, tug or sportfishing boat, the most "compassionate" thing one could do for those boat people was give them water and call the USCG and stand by until they arrived. 
In many cases, even food would not be appropriate, if unsupervised by a medical professional.


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## Seaman_3rdClass

Rmaddy said:


> The question isn't so much what would you do if you came upon refugees dying on a raft at sea, but rather what would you do if you and your family lived in a place so terrible that the prospect of dying on a raft at sea was not a deterrent to giving it a shot. Refugees are not "illegal". They are refugees. A little compassion out there on your private yacht.


Your claim that the Med boat people are refugees is unsubstantiated. The term refugee has a legal definition, someone who's fleeing war, persecution, or violence in their home country. The vast majority of the Med boat migrants do not meet that definition. Most of them are not families fleeing war or persecution, but young males from Sub-Saharan countries not currently at war. They tend not to be particularly poor either, being able to come up with hefty fees to get on the smugglers' boats - a good, if risky, investment given the generous payoff if they make it to their destination. I trust you can look up the details yourself.

If this is wrong, it is a moral imperative to help them. Please do post videos when you sail to the Med on your private yacht and approach their boats to assist them in their migration.


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## MikeOReilly

Seaman_3rdClass said:


> A metaphor for the situation as a whole.
> 
> Your choices in such an encounter would be:
> 1) to render assistance and be swamped and/or hijacked, in which case you may end up swimming with the fishes yourself (as you said, your boat has limited capabilities, and you're taking up valuable space/food/water).


This is an assumption unsupported by facts presented. I said the opposite.

The issue with recognizing my vessel's limitations are simple facts. I can accommodate perhaps 12 people. The raft cited held 120. My full water supply would assist very little.

I stated I would still provide what assistance I could, without overtly endangering my crew or my vessel. I think this is the basic standard all mariners are expected to operate to.



Seaman_3rdClass said:


> Also, you're assuming that the quoted official is correct and truthful about the history of such incidents. Given the obfuscation of this situation by European officials and the media, I wouldn't make that assumption.


This is the only information I have. I have no information regarding the "obfuscation of this situation by European officials and the media." If you do, then you are in a more informed position. But my brief research on the subject has so far confirmed there have been no other similar incidents.


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## Seaman_3rdClass

MikeOReilly said:


> I stated I would still provide what assistance I could, without overtly endangering my crew or my vessel. I think this is the basic standard all mariners are expected to operate to.


OK. It's easy to talk abstractly about how you would provide what assistance you could and basic standards, but at sea things get rather more concrete. Since we are discussing realistic scenarios that could happen if you were cruising in certain parts of the Med, let's talk specifics. What assistance would you provide if you encountered a craft filled with a hundred or more migrants? And how would you provide it?

Would you come close enough to raft up or transfer a number of migrants to your boat, say, by dinghy, or by their jumping in the water and swimming to your boat?

You said you could take 12 (or whatever), but how would you select them? What if more than the number your boat could support tried to come aboard, as is likely to be the case? Would you take all of them on, try to persuade some of them not to board your boat, or just take off and leave them in the water? What if they were clinging to your boat while still in the water, but you could take no more? What if those that did come aboard insisted on your going back and picking up their friends and relatives? What if they REALLY insisted? "Look at me: I am the captain now."

If you were NOT planning to take any aboard for those reasons, but say, just give them some of your water or food, you'd have to be close enough to transfer water or food while controlling who came aboard your vessel. How would you persuade them not to come aboard if they nonetheless jumped or swam to your boat? How would you do that, without endangering your crew or your vessel? Would you remove your ladder and any lines they could grab? Most of the migrants attempting the journey are young agile men under the age of 36, and quite desperate. What would you do if the choice was between physically preventing them from coming onto your boat or endangering yourself, your crew, and your boat?


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## MarkofSeaLife

I don't think any of us can plan how we would react. 

Each situation I have been it at sea is utterly unique. 

We must all rely on our moral compass and the situation as we see it. 

I have no doubt that all of us would do our best. None of us are types that would leave people to die... But I also think none of us are so naive enough to realise we could put ourselves in a serious situation. 

My best advice to *me* is that I will do the right thing at the right time. 


:2 boat:


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## Minnewaska

Reminds me of a situation where we were making passage between Block Island and the Eastern end of Long Island. It wasn't foggy, but visibility was poor, maybe a few miles. You could not see shore by a long shot, but could certainly see a distance. As we're sailing, we see an orange lump in the sea, too far away to be able to fully make it out. It could be a life jacket. For a few moments, getting further away, I'm asking myself if that could really have been what we saw. I say to my wife that we should turn around and go over to check. To my surprise, she become extremely anxious that we may find someone dead in a life jacket. I can't know she would have sailed on, if alone, but it did seem that intense. I can't imagine she would approach a vessel, with sick or injured or even dead crew, particularly if she might be outnumbered and overwhelmed. I'm sure she would call for help on the radio.

We turned around. On the entire 5 ish minute return trip, she was visibly anxious, even scared. As we approached, it turned out to be an orange mylar balloon. Whew. 

BTW, I've never seen a plastic straw in the water. I see these freaking mylar balloons all the time. The trend toward banning straws reminds me of our never ending desire to prove to ourselves we're doing something and frequently accomplish little. If we don't suffer or feel the sacrifice, it must not be working. These balloons are what need to be banned. But, I digress from the topic.


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## PhilCarlson

Rmaddy said:


> The question isn't so much what would you do if you came upon refugees dying on a raft at sea, but rather what would you do if you and your family lived in a place so terrible that the prospect of dying on a raft at sea was not a deterrent to giving it a shot. Refugees are not "illegal". They are refugees. A little compassion out there on your private yacht.


This is an important perspective to inform one's decision making. Also consider that at least one of the people on board may be a trafficker of people. That guy presents the greatest threat.

I ran across an interview on Youtube last night (cant' get to the link right now) of a middle aged couple who encountered a skiff with 11 people on board between Spain and Algeria. The skiff rammed the sailboat in an attempt to forcibly board with three. One was successfull and two fell overboard. The skiff's engine died preventing additional attempts. The one that successfully boarded was not hostile, but who knows how they would have been if all three had boarded, they could easily have imposed their will over the crew. Desparate people doing desparate things.

Rescue was coordinated and it had a happy ending. But it could easily have gone very differently. Compassion can be a dangerous thing.


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## chall03

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I don't think any of us can plan how we would react.
> 
> Each situation I have been it at sea is utterly unique.
> 
> We must all rely on our moral compass and the situation as we see it.
> 
> I have no doubt that all of us would do our best. None of us are types that would leave people to die... But I also think none of us are so naive enough to realise we could put ourselves in a serious situation.
> 
> My best advice to *me* is that I will do the right thing at the right time.
> 
> :2 boat:


Well said.

This thread title grabbed my interest, as someone who is soon to fly to Malta and begin sailing the Med it's a slightly more than a theoretical question.

I won't add much else as I think you have pretty eloquently hit the nail on the head.

I am however reminded to be continually thankful that I was born in a spot in the world where I have no firsthand experience of war, famine, poverty or lawlessness.


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## Seaman_3rdClass

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I don't think any of us can plan how we would react.
> 
> Each situation I have been it at sea is utterly unique.
> 
> We must all rely on our moral compass and the situation as we see it.
> 
> I have no doubt that all of us would do our best. None of us are types that would leave people to die... But I also think none of us are so naive enough to realise we could put ourselves in a serious situation.
> 
> My best advice to *me* is that I will do the right thing at the right time.
> 
> :2 boat:


Fair enough. But just like with MOB situations, it helps to think through the options ahead of time because the situation gets "real" and emotional very quickly.

On a beautiful, calm night last summer in coastal Boston waters what seemed like a domestic quarrel (a bunch of drunk people arguing on a motor boat nearby) suddenly turned into an MOB situation. Once we realized a man from the other boat was just barely clinging to the underside of a loose tow ring (the kind that powerboats tow for fun) a few hundred yards away and was about to go under, and the motor boat was dead in the water (they were yelling at each other for running out of gas), it became very intense. 
We did get to the MOB in time, who was nearly incoherent and losing his gross motor skills. We pulled him into our boat, which took two strong guys to do and caused him considerable pain as we dragged him up over the low stern of our boat. Even though the conditions were nearly perfect, help was but a mile or two away, and the MOB was a stranger, it was very stressful. In the rushed gybe to turn around and get him, I got hit by the boom really hard for the first time. Luckily, the boat I was on was small and the boom fairly light. If the boom on our boat had hit me, I would've been knocked out or dead.


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## Seaman_3rdClass

Minnewaska said:


> Reminds me of a situation where we were making passage between Block Island and the Eastern end of Long Island. It wasn't foggy, but visibility was poor, maybe a few miles. You could not see shore by a long shot, but could certainly see a distance. As we're sailing, we see an orange lump in the sea, too far away to be able to fully make it out. It could be a life jacket. For a few moments, getting further away, I'm asking myself if that could really have been what we saw. I say to my wife that we should turn around and go over to check. To my surprise, she become extremely anxious that we may find someone dead in a life jacket. I can't know she would have sailed on, if alone, but it did seem that intense. I can't imagine she would approach a vessel, with sick or injured or even dead crew, particularly if she might be outnumbered and overwhelmed. I'm sure she would call for help on the radio.
> 
> We turned around. On the entire 5 ish minute return trip, she was visibly anxious, even scared. As we approached, it turned out to be an orange mylar balloon. Whew.


This reminds me of another situation I was in some years ago. We had taken a mooring at Spectacle Island in Boston Harbor and were having dinner when there was a commotion on a motor boat perhaps a 100 yards away. We couldn't quite see what was going on, but there seemed to be someone in the water. But the boat was under power, there were a lot of young people on it, and there were other motor boats actively moored closer to them. Then a number of police, rescue, and firefighter boats come screaming from all directions towards the boat. We hear a call on Ch.16 from the police or CG to look for what sounded like 'missing limb in the water'. We thought we'd misheard, but then a police boat approaches to ask us if we didn't see a missing arm in the water! We slipped our mooring and starting circling, looking for the missing arm in the water along with a bunch of other boats, a pleasant dinner on a beautiful night having turned into a gruesome search.

Yup, this was the infamous 'Naut guilty' (the boat's name) incident, where a 19 yo girl had jumped in the water to 'rescue' a lost cushion, and the boat backed over her, the prop severing her arm, never to be found. The boat was owned by a DUI lawyer who also was a part-owner of a liquor store in Charlestown. Everyone of 15 or so people onboard this small boat were very drunk, many underage. The authorities tried to shut the liquor store down after that incident, I think unsuccessfully. Then a friend happened to sit in the seat next to a girl on a flight out of Boston some years later. She was missing an arm, and he couldn't resist asking if it was her, which it was. You can't make this stuff up.


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## ThereYouAre

PhilCarlson said:


> <snip>
> 
> I ran across an interview on Youtube last night (cant' get to the link right now) of a middle aged couple who encountered a skiff with 11 people on board between Spain and Algeria. <snip>


Here's an interview with that couple


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## MikeOReilly

MarkofSeaLife said:


> I don't think any of us can plan how we would react.
> 
> Each situation I have been it at sea is utterly unique.
> 
> We must all rely on our moral compass and the situation as we see it.
> 
> I have no doubt that all of us would do our best. None of us are types that would leave people to die... But I also think none of us are so naive enough to realise we could put ourselves in a serious situation.
> 
> My best advice to *me* is that I will do the right thing at the right time.


Well said Mark. Ditto.

But as a starting point, my advice is not to operate out of fear. Since we are being specific, the article DOES NOT support the supposition that these people are a menace. It says this is the first event in all the years it has been going on.

As I clearly stated, a seaman's obligation is to render assistance with out unduly risking their own crew or vessel. In this case, a small sailboat can provide limited assistance to a raft of 120 people. Water, perhaps refuge for the most vulnerable. Who knows. I do know it would be hard for me to simply sail past and attempt to do nothing, but desperate people can be dangerous people. I would not overtly risk my crew or my vessel.


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## Rmaddy

If the water taxi captains who rescued Sulli and his passengers in the Hudson instead held off, saying "Desperate people can be dangerous people"--what would you think of them?


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## PhilCarlson

Rmaddy said:


> If the water taxi captains who rescued Sulli and his passengers in the Hudson instead held off, saying "Desperate people can be dangerous people"--what would you think of them?


If any of them had placed their boats or crew at undue risk in the rescue effort, I would question their competence.


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## Minnewaska

It's abundantly clear that each Captain will make their own choice, in each given situation. No blathering here is going to change another's mind, nor should it. 

It's fair information to consider that one's rescue effort could be overwhelmed in a variety of ways, by the victims. Proceed as you see fit. I'll do the same. 

I'm sure I'd respond differently to a bunch of airline passengers standing on the wing of a ditched airplane than I would to a 25ft skiff in known piracy waters, with a half dozen young men waving me over. All scenarios in between will depend on my judgement. As will yours. Period. 

Unfortunately, the article on this particular event is remarkably lacking details to be able to consider what I might have done. Were they armed, did they just overwhelm the crew by number, etc. 

A refugee is neither legal nor illegal, it's just a definition of circumstance. It doesn't entitle anyone to anything either. It is clearly illegal to enter virtually all civilized countries, without permission. For the less civilized countries, they're more likely to just kill you as a potential threat.


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## MikeOReilly

Rmaddy said:


> If the water taxi captains who rescued Sulli and his passengers in the Hudson instead held off, saying "Desperate people can be dangerous people"--what would you think of them?


If this was aimed at my me, then I'm not sure what your question, or point is. Please explain.


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## Scottelly

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*



MarkofSeaLife said:


> What makes you think you would be allowed to radio the coast guard?
> 
> On this sinking raft is 30 people including 10 babies and children under 10 some of which are in the water hanging onto the over crowded raft. You see at least 1 dead body floating in the water. On the raft are at least 5 women in high distress, and at least 10 men distressed and who's only thought is to save the lives of their families.
> The adults know if they are returned to the previous country they will be shot.
> To kill you and your wife and crew so they can get to asylum safely means nothing to them.
> 
> What do you do?
> 
> Take them on board where you risk your life?
> Ring the Coast Guard/Navy? They say you are in International Waters and you are not to bring them into their country.
> 
> What do you do?


You could throw them a few bottles of water and notify the U.S. Coast Guard . . . and if you have plenty of floatation devices, you might be able to throw those to them, to help save their lives, but I wonder if that would make you an accomplice, like a coyote, for assisting them to cross the border illegally.


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## Arcb

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*



Scottelly said:


> U.S. Coast Guard . . ..


I have seen this mentioned a few times, but I think in the Mediteranean you would be looking for Frontex.

https://frontex.europa.eu/

Actually, a Mayday relay addressed to all stations, or no one in particular might be appropriate.


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## Seaman_3rdClass

Rmaddy said:


> If the water taxi captains who rescued Sulli and his passengers in the Hudson instead held off, saying "Desperate people can be dangerous people"--what would you think of them?


Are you really comparing a US carrier aircraft doing an announced emergency landing on the Hudson in NYC to an unknown boat off the Barbary coast in the Atlantic, or are you just trolling us? I'm sure your analogical reasoning skills are better than that.


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## capta

I certainly would not put a 50-foot boat into a position where 100 plus panicking people had the ability to clamber aboard. It wouldn't save any lives and probably cost the crew of the 50 footer theirs.
Compassion only goes so far and if one cannot make any difference in a situation, then it is best for all to call the authorities and not get involved. From everything I've read about these Med catastrophes, every person has a pfd of some sort, so jumping in thoughtlessly is probably not the best course of action.
It's a lovely dream to come alongside a boat loaded with desperate people and offer safety to children and women if there is room, but in reality, human beings generally will ignore civility in order to save their own lives at the cost of any others.
There is not a very fine line between being a responsible captain and a compassionate person. Safety of *the captain's* vessel and crew always come first.


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## Seaman_3rdClass

capta said:


> I certainly would not put a 50-foot boat into a position where 100 plus panicking people had the ability to clamber aboard. It wouldn't save any lives and probably cost the crew of the 50 footer theirs.
> Compassion only goes so far and if one cannot make any difference in a situation, then it is best for all to call the authorities and not get involved. From everything I've read about these Med catastrophes, every person has a pfd of some sort, so jumping in thoughtlessly is probably not the best course of action.
> It's a lovely dream to come alongside a boat loaded with desperate people and offer safety to children and women if there is room, but in reality, human beings generally will ignore civility in order to save their own lives at the cost of any others.
> There is not a very fine line between being a responsible captain and a compassionate person. Safety of *the captain's* vessel and crew always come first.


I find this viewpoint interesting, coming from someone who sails for a living somewhere where he may actually come into contact with suspicious boats. Whereas folks who sail on inland lakes/in Canada and have zero chances of encountering migrant boats, are more apt to claim that they could never pass one without offering assistance. I guess distance does make the heart grow fonder/braver.


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## Don L

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*



MarkofSeaLife said:


> What makes you think you would be allowed to radio the coast guard?
> 
> On this sinking raft is 30 people including 10 babies and children under 10 some of which are in the water hanging onto the over crowded raft. You see at least 1 dead body floating in the water. On the raft are at least 5 women in high distress, and at least 10 men distressed and who's only thought is to save the lives of their families.
> The adults know if they are returned to the previous country they will be shot.
> To kill you and your wife and crew so they can get to asylum safely means nothing to them.
> 
> What do you do?
> 
> Take them on board where you risk your life?
> Ring the Coast Guard/Navy? They say you are in International Waters and you are not to bring them into their country.
> 
> What do you do?


I don't know. Guess the moral thing is to let them kill you have your boat.

If you do nothing, is the guy in the USVI going to charge you with manslaughter?


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## Arcb

Seaman_3rdClass said:


> Whereas folks who sail on inland lakes/in Canada and have zero chances of encountering migrant boats, are more apt to claim that they could never pass one without offering assistance


There is a grey area here. One could stand off a distance, call for third party assistance and monitor the situation.

That satisfies both camps, you provide assistance in the form of communication, tracking and reassurance, while at the same time not unduly endangering your vessel.

This type of assistance is pretty common. Ships come to the aid of other vessels and yachts from time to time, but are unable to render direct assistance due to sea state or maneuverability or some other challenge but do stand by until a more suitable rescue vessel arrives.


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## capta

Seaman_3rdClass said:


> I find this viewpoint interesting, coming from someone who sails for a living somewhere where he may actually come into contact with suspicious boats. Whereas folks who sail on inland lakes/in Canada and have zero chances of encountering migrant boats, are more apt to claim that they could never pass one without offering assistance. I guess distance does make the heart grow fonder/braver.


Now you've got me completely confused. I thought this thread was about dealing with migrants or boat people on the high seas, not suspicious boats one might encounter that could be a danger.
Two completely different subjects IMO and probably two different threads, though the 'suspicious boat' (pirate?) thing had been hashed to death on this and every other forum. If you are interested I believe there is a search feature on the page somewhere.


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## Topspin

It seems there is something really fishy here:

https://wnwd.com/migrant-ship-hijac...ing_wp_cron=1553789995.3796110153198242187500

-Richard


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## MikeOReilly

capta said:


> Now you've got me completely confused. I thought this thread was about dealing with migrants or boat people on the high seas, not suspicious boats one might encounter that could be a danger.
> Two completely different subjects IMO and probably two different threads, though the 'suspicious boat' (pirate?) thing had been hashed to death on this and every other forum. If you are interested I believe there is a search feature on the page somewhere.


Yeah, I don't really understand what this seaman is on about.


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## john61ct

Seems entirely straightforward to me.

Read the title.

That POV being pushed, is the purpose of the post.

This news item fit that narrative.

That is all. Super simple.


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## MikeOReilly

john61ct said:


> Seems entirely straightforward to me.
> 
> Read the title.
> 
> That POV being pushed, is the purpose of the post.
> 
> This news item fit that narrative.
> 
> That is all. Super simple.


The news item DOES NOT fit the thread narrative. But that's not what I'm referring to via affirming Capta's comments.


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## Scottelly

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*



Arcb said:


> I have seen this mentioned a few times, but I think in the Mediteranean you would be looking for Frontex.
> 
> https://frontex.europa.eu/
> 
> Actually, a Mayday relay addressed to all stations, or no one in particular might be appropriate.


Good point. I guess "the authorities" would have been the right thing to say, rather than "the U.S. Coast Guard" huh? I was thinking about all the Hatian and Cuban refugees we've been getting here in Florida my entire life.


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## MarkofSeaLife

*Drinking Straws *

Have been moved to their (its) own thread!

https://www.sailnet.com/forums/off-...s-moved-split-thread-sailing-environment.html

How exciting!  

Mark


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## Minnewaska

MarkofSeaLife said:


> *Drinking Straws *
> 
> Have been moved to their (its) own thread!
> 
> https://www.sailnet.com/forums/off-...s-moved-split-thread-sailing-environment.html
> 
> How exciting!
> 
> Mark


Sorry Dad. I fully blame the fact that my boat was supposed to splash this past week, but it's been bumped to next week. I'm bored.


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## john61ct

MikeOReilly said:


> The news item DOES NOT fit the thread narrative


Sorry, I meant the OP's perception of the news item fit their intention to spread the narrative indicated by the title.

An incident with some similarities

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-46255984


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## MarkofSeaLife

john61ct said:


> Sorry, I meant the OP's perception of the news item fit their intention to spread the narrative indicated by the title.


Actually you, nor anyone else, are mind readers. You cannot know, or ever know what I perceive, think, understand etc.



I have sailed the Med. My boat is in London and every time I cross the Channel I am boarded by the Navy/CG* etc searching for illegals. When I slip back into the Med the chance of coming a cross people floating in the water increases.

My perceptions may be 'wrong' to some, but by jingo, by crikey, I'm thinking about them more than people not sailing these waters.

Maybe I should have added an extra clarification and put it in the Med sub-forum. I sure wasn't expecting Cuba to pop up in this thread! I was certainly expecting people to be more up to date on the Med situation.



* Not the fricken US Navy or the USCG! but the UK, French, Dutch navy's

Mark


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## john61ct

http://nohumanbeingisillegal.com/


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## RegisteredUser

Dunno if they handle the Med.
No offices listed in Euro or Afrika


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## Seaman_3rdClass

MikeOReilly said:


> Yeah, I don't really understand what this seaman is on about.


What is so difficult to understand? You see a boat that's clearly not a leisure craft or engaged in some legitimate maritime business. How do you know from a distance whether these are migrants, pirates, migrants who could turn into pirates if the circumstances are right, or someone just pushing some service you may or may not want? You don't until you come closer. In certain regions of the Caribbean it's not uncommon to see large skiffs come at you and you have no idea what they want. 
Maybe you can tell from a mile away who is on the boat and what they want, but I can't.


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## Arcb

Seaman_3rdClass said:


> What is so difficult to understand? You see a boat that's clearly not a leisure craft or engaged in some legitimate maritime business. How do you know from a distance whether these are migrants, pirates, migrants who could turn into pirates if the circumstances are right, or someone just pushing some service you may or may not want? You don't until you come closer. In certain regions of the Caribbean it's not uncommon to see large skiffs come at you and you have no idea what they want.
> Maybe you can tell from a mile away who is on the boat and what they want, but I can't.


But the thread wasnt about the Black Pearl, Captain Jack Sparrow or the Pirates of the Carribean. It was a big slow cumbersome sinking raft with over 100 men, women and children on board. Totally different things.


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## Rmaddy

*Re: Do not pick up illegal migrants!*



Scottelly said:


> You could throw them a few bottles of water and notify the U.S. Coast Guard . . . and if you have plenty of floatation devices, you might be able to throw those to them, to help save their lives, but I wonder if that would make you an accomplice, like a coyote, for assisting them to cross the border illegally.


Seeking asylum is not illegal, and refugees have rights defined by the United Nations. Status-wise, they have the same right to sail/row/motor into Malta or elsewhere that you do. Once there, they, like you, must present themselves to the local authorities and state their purpose in arriving. On the water, there is no legal distinction between them and you whatsoever. There is a factual distinction, i.e. that they are overloaded and in trouble, and you are not. It is on that basis that I would hope you made your decisions.


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## RegisteredUser

You just told us water is wet


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## MikeOReilly

Arcb said:


> But the thread wasnt about the Black Pearl, Captain Jack Sparrow or the Pirates of the Carribean. It was a big slow cumbersome sinking raft with over 100 men, women and children on board. Totally different things.


Exactly right. I don't understand what seaman is on about. (S)he seems to want to have a different discussion. Or perhaps a broader discussion about how one deals with 'the other.'

In this case the article says this is the first example of piracy in all the years of this prolonged human disaster. And the other link presents evidence that even this conclusion is doubtful. So obviously the evidence suggests these people are not a danger to any would-be rescuer.

As I said, desperate people can do desperate things. I would be cautious. As I also said, _I think_ I would render what assistance I could without overtly endangering my crew or vessel. This is consistent with our obligations as mariners, but also as fellow human beings.

Given the limitation of a smallish sailboat trying to assist a raft with 120 people on it, the assistance I could provide would likely be quite limited. Perhaps I could provide water, and maybe refuge to a few of the more vulnerable. Obviously I could assist with communications if that was needed. Not sure what else a smallish sailboat could do.


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## Seaman_3rdClass

MikeOReilly said:


> Exactly right. I don't understand what seaman is on about. (S)he seems to want to have a different discussion. Or perhaps a broader discussion about how one deals with 'the other.'
> 
> In this case the article says this is the first example of piracy in all the years of this prolonged human disaster. And the other link presents evidence that even this conclusion is doubtful. So obviously the evidence suggests these people are not a danger to any would-be rescuer.
> 
> As I said, desperate people can do desperate things. I would be cautious. As I also said, _I think_ I would render what assistance I could without overtly endangering my crew or vessel. This is consistent with our obligations as mariners, but also as fellow human beings.
> 
> Given the limitation of a smallish sailboat trying to assist a raft with 120 people on it, the assistance I could provide would likely be quite limited. Perhaps I could provide water, and maybe refuge to a few of the more vulnerable. Obviously I could assist with communications if that was needed. Not sure what else a smallish sailboat could do.


I had two rather simple points in this discussion: 
1) you can't know who are dealing with at sea until you come into fairly close contact, which can endanger you;
2) folks who sail in areas where they're unlikely to ever encounter migrants seem most enthusiastic about rendering assistance to them.

My latent point is, in case it's still not clear, I'm not very impressed by folks intent on moral posturing while actually doing nothing.


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## MikeOReilly

Seaman_3rdClass said:


> I had two rather simple points in this discussion:
> 1) you can't know who are dealing with at sea until you come into fairly close contact, which can endanger you;
> 2) folks who sail in areas where they're unlikely to ever encounter migrants seem most enthusiastic about rendering assistance to them.
> 
> My latent point is, in case it's still not clear, I'm not very impressed by folks intent on moral posturing while actually doing nothing.


First off, no one really cares what impresses you. That's not what we're discussing (in case it's still not clear to you). As for your "moral posturing" accusation ... you mean by expressing basic human compassion, and/or by quoting standard Admiralty law?

On your #1 point; of course you can't know what you are dealing with until getting rather close. Duh&#8230;

Your #2 is pure opinion. I think everyone has said basically the same thing; that they would be cautious in rendering what aid was possible *without endangering their own crew or vessel.* It's only you who seems to be saying something different.


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## john61ct

Well put Mike.


MikeOReilly said:


> no one really cares what impresses you


In fact if he agreed with anything I thought I'd be concerned.

> expressing basic human compassion

amazing how far from Christ's teachings many self-professed "Christians" stray.

Yes, be cautious, but do your best to help.

In constant overblown fear, is no way to live.


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## Rmaddy

Seaman_3rdClass said:


> My latent point is, in case it's still not clear, I'm not very impressed by folks intent on moral posturing while actually doing nothing.


The risk in having a moral conscience is that, in the heat of a critical moment, one might not live up to the expressed ideal. I think we all get this. Still, when my raft is foundering in blue waters, I would much rather deal with someone who at least aspired to compassion, empathy, and so on.


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## outbound

On multiple levels think calling for local authorities is usually the right call. Think this true both both your and their safety.
We were once the standby vessel in the rescue of a distressed commercial fish boat. Called it in to the CG. Asked to report our position and relay communications if necessary but unless there were people in the water hold station and not raft nor attempt transfer of people. This was over 20 years ago so don’t know if general recommendations have changed.
Injuries, drownings and death can occur in transfers. The authorities are likely to be much more skilled and equipped to do this activity safely.
Issues of violence or potential violence are better handled by them as well.
Issues of new or further damage to either vessel are circumvented.

There are multiple exceptions.
Calling for rescue to a totalitarian state. Think rescuing Israeli yachtmen off coast of Iran maybe justified. 
Calling for rescue once outside the 200m limit with other vessel sinking or on fire. Response time would be too long so immediate action required. Same true in other pressing emergencies such as medical (with proviso you could supply skills), disabled crew, damaged vessel etc.

Of course judgment is required. I’m not likely to rescue Somali or Venezuelan pirates except in very limited circumstances. But the law of the sea and hundreds of years of tradition require you put aside any sentiments and give aid to a distressed vessel. I find it reassuring that a cruise ship or freighter or container ship will do this for me so I feel an obligation to do it for others.


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## zedboy

It's pretty clear that the EU is outsourcing "rescue" to a newly-equipped-and-budgeted Libyan CG ... which is not interested in saving migrants.

That said, unless your destination is Libya, you probably won't have any problems from the migrants you pick up...

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019...a-refugee-ship-hijacking-190330172346952.html

Winter is ending here, the problem is only going to get worse this summer. I don't have any concrete plans to be that far west, but it's a real issue. Probably not where most cruisers will be, Lampedusa is slightly more than halfway across between Sicily and Libya. Stay North and you won't see any action.


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## AxelK

I often sail in Greece, so this is an issue I have extensively discussed with fellow boat owners. Hasn't ever happened to me, but to be honest I see it as my duty to save people in danger.


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## Minnewaska

AxelK said:


> I often sail in Greece, so this is an issue I have extensively discussed with fellow boat owners. Hasn't ever happened to me, but to be honest I see it as my duty to save people in danger.


Saving people in danger is a pretty broad statement, given your extensive discussion. That could be a little as a radio call, or do you raft your small sailboat up to a vessel with 100 adult men waving their arms at you. Curious what you discussed.

In this scenario, I stay at a distance and make a radio call, I'm sure. None of us really know, until faced with the circumstance. Ironically, I may be calling exactly who they are trying to escape. Not speaking their language will make that impossible to determine.


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## Don L

so if you can't get anyone on the radio and/or people are drowning what are you going to do?


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## Arcb

Don0190 said:


> so if you can't get anyone on the radio and/or people are drowning what are you going to do?


Time to upgrade your electronics, my 21 ft boat has two means of satellite communication, together they cost me less than a $1k.


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## outbound

The post from the eastern med is of interest and I believe reflects most cruisers thinking. We think of cruising as idyllic but this is always tempered by reality.
In my provincial view have friends who like the ABCs for diving. Now approach from seaward at 90 degrees from the mainland coast. Longer but safer. Similarly several friends summer in Trinidad. They stay as far away from the mainland coast as possible. 
There are some problems you just can’t fix. You need to stay safe. Be it crossing the Indian Ocean or just messing around in the Caribbean. 
Axel seems to be a good sort. He’ll do the “right” thing but wisely will try to avoid putting himself potentially in harms way.


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## jephotog

Don0190 said:


> so if you can't get anyone on the radio and/or people are drowning what are you going to do?


Build a wall around my boat.:grin


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## AxelK

It goes without saying that it's a judgement call. I said 'in danger'- it's up to you to discern whether people risk to lose their lives if you don't help them immediately, and yes, in many cases that may include more than a radio call. See here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...uty-towards-people-struggling-for-their-lives
I guess you know that every year thousands of people get drowned in the Med, including women and children. I have friends in Lesvos and Chios (Greek islands) where these questions are not theoretical. I have discussed with them about their experiences, as some of them have actually helped refugees - the vast majority of them don't know how to swim.
No, I don't claim that I could save everyone with my small sailboat. Obviously, if we were talking about hundreds of people I would prioritise women and children, as well as sick people. In my case, it's people trying to reach Europe from Turkey (Syrians, Afghans, Pakistanis) with the tacit consent of the Turkish authorities, so no, I wouldn't be calling those who are trying to escape. 
Perhaps if I was sailing in other parts of the world I would be a bit more wary.
Just for the record, I didn't post here to preach to other people what they should do. As a Christian, I think it's my duty to help people in distress, and even more so because of my own ancestors (on the Greek side) were immigrants fleeing Turkey and were eventually saved by Greek boatsmen. As you said, we don't know until faced with the circumstance, but I would like to think that I would behave as humanely as possible. Other people may think differently, and I respect that.


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## Minnewaska

Another very interesting rescue thought. Triage makes sense. Helping the sick or injured first. Then young children, who are less capable of helping themselves. 

However, in today’s day and age, are we past the women before men thing? Doesn’t seem modern equal rights perspective would endorse this long standing social advantage. Or would they.


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