# Thoughts on child's safety harness please



## T37Chef

I have been contemplating the purchase of a children's safety harness's for my kids (3&5). Why shouldn't I have them for the kids? I don't ever recall hearing of discussion good or bad about kids wearing them, so before I make the purchase I wanted to get some real life experience feedback from you...

Here one from Defender 









http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|135|88189&id=142669


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## svHyLyte

Our daughter began sailing with us when she was 6 weeks old in a car-seat lashed down in the cockpit. At the point at which she was able to walk, we put her in a lifevest with a harness that allowed her to reach, but not exceed the edges of the combings in the cockpit. Since she started out with this arrangement from the get go, she never had a problem with it, just as putting on a seat-belt in the car became second nature. Today, she and my wife both wear inflatable PFD's aboard ship as they manage the yacht, and harnesses whenever we're off-shore, (as do I) without giving the matter a second thought.

Our first rule aboard the boat has always been "Safety First". Our second rule is "Always hold on to the boat". Our third rule is "Never argue with Daddy". S'worked for 20+ years for me--it'll work for you. (Rule 1 and 2 anyway.)

FWIW...


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## Siamese

I always have one attached to my cat. I never want to have the experience of suddenly wondering, WHERE IS HE!?!?!

So, yeah, I can see why it could make a lot of sense to use a tether on small kids. Not necessarily all the time. And not in place of a life jacket. If junior goes over, it's probably best if he floats, tether or not. 

The only downside I can see is getting the line tangled up on everything. Could be both a hassle and a danger. And I suppose if kids can strangle themselves on the cords attached to window blinds, no doubt they could do the same with a line tied to a harness. 

Hey I'm a lot of help, huh? Bottom line answer is: I'd do it some of the time, depending on conditions and distance from land. In the end, there's always risk.


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## sailingdog

IMHO, you'd be better off getting the ones that attach to the tether on the back. The reason for this is simple. If they fall overboard and are being dragged face forward, they will likely drown before you can stop the boat. If the harness and tether attach on the back, they will be dragged backwards through the water and there is far less chance of them drowning. 

Be aware that a tether and harness does not replace a PFD...


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## Ajax_MD

Stop the boat? You don't think Chef could haul a 3 or a 5 year old out of the water if one fell overboard? Especially in the adrenaline-driven heat of the moment? I'll bet he can.

The harness shown would fit under a PFD well I think.


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## sailingdog

You're assuming that Chef would be available to do so. That may not be the case.



BubbleheadMd said:


> Stop the boat? You don't think Chef could haul a 3 or a 5 year old out of the water if one fell overboard? Especially in the adrenaline-driven heat of the moment? I'll bet he can.
> 
> The harness shown would fit under a PFD well I think.


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## cormeum

svHyLyte said:


> Our daughter began sailing with us when she was 6 weeks old in a car-seat lashed down in the cockpit. At the point at which she was able to walk, we put her in a lifevest with a harness that allowed her to reach, but not exceed the edges of the combings in the cockpit. Since she started out with this arrangement from the get go, she never had a problem with it, just as putting on a seat-belt in the car became second nature. Today, she and my wife both wear inflatable PFD's aboard ship as they manage the yacht, and harnesses whenever we're off-shore, (as do I) without giving the matter a second thought.
> 
> Our first rule aboard the boat has always been "Safety First". Our second rule is "Always hold on to the boat". Our third rule is "Never argue with Daddy". S'worked for 20+ years for me--it'll work for you. (Rule 1 and 2 anyway.)
> 
> FWIW...


That's just how we've done it with all of ours.


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## Ajax_MD

What kind of lifevest? A child's Type II or do they make an auto-inflate that small?


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## scottyt

there is other options


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## St Anna

A short tether so they cannot fall over the side, but a vest that keeps the head out of the water.imho

Our experience - if the kid has to wear it, you have to wear it.


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## Ajax_MD

ScottyT, that is priceless!


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## chef2sail

ScottyT............you arent right,,,lol


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## svHyLyte

scottyt said:


> there is other options


I forsee a visit from Child Protective Services in your future old son... And the possibility that your wife may deal harshly with you in your sleep!


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## T37Chef

scottyt said:


> there is other options


This is what I have been doing (thanks for the tip last year Scottyt) but I go through a LOT of duct tape...I mean it gets really costly, even if I buy the 5 roll pack at Costco


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## pdqaltair

*Yes, used exactly that one with my girl, from ~ 3-10 years.*



T37Chef said:


> I have been contemplating the purchase of a children's safety harness's for my kids (3&5). Why shouldn't I have them for the kids? I don't ever recall hearing of discussion good or bad about kids wearing them, so before I make the purchase I wanted to get some real life experience feedback from you...
> 
> Here one from Defender
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|135|88189&id=142669


We had a clear deck, so tangles were not a problem. Clear, the child is still attended.


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## scottyt

sorry for the high jack shawn.

as for the harness does anybody make a pfd for kids with a built in harness, or seen a strong lifting handle a tether could be attached to? doing a harness and a separate pfd seems like it could get annoying to all involved


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## T37Chef

I've also been hoping for Mustang or someone to manufacturer a inflatable PFD, with and without harness? The Mustang rep at the boat show last fall said its in the works...anyone heard any updates?


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## sailingdog

Might want to look at the Mustang series of PFDs. IIRC, CD likes them quite a bit...


scottyt said:


> sorry for the high jack shawn.
> 
> as for the harness does anybody make a pfd for kids with a built in harness, or seen a strong lifting handle a tether could be attached to? doing a harness and a separate pfd seems like it could get annoying to all involved


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## Dockhead

scottyt said:


> sorry for the high jack shawn.
> 
> as for the harness does anybody make a pfd for kids with a built in harness, or seen a strong lifting handle a tether could be attached to? doing a harness and a separate pfd seems like it could get annoying to all involved


Crewsaver "Seababy". That's what we use. I wouldn't have a life jacket on boardwithout an integral harness. In this case, the harness attaches to the back, so you can haul the tot back on board by main force if necessary.

Crewsaver 150N Seababy - 0-20kg buoyancy lifejacket - Only £79.95 - Force 4 Chandlery


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## T37Chef

Dockhead said:


> Crewsaver "Seababy". That's what we use. I wouldn't have a life jacket on boardwithout an integral harness. In this case, the harness attaches to the back, so you can haul the tot back on board by main force if necessary.
> 
> Crewsaver 150N Seababy - 0-20kg buoyancy lifejacket - Only £79.95 - Force 4 Chandlery


Good find DH, thanks, maybe this is a better way to go...


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## pdqaltair

*However, when the Chesapeake gets windless and 98F and the water is nearly as warm...*



T37Chef said:


> Good find DH, thanks, maybe this is a better way to go...


... a harness allows for a cooler alternative, when the circumstances allow. Get both. There were many days when wearing a PFD full time would have meant staying home - little ones don't have the heat tolerance of adults. The danger of heatstroke would rival the danger of drowning.

That said, a little one can never be out of adult sight. Tape em' down, if you have to.


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## sailingdog

Very good point...



pdqaltair said:


> ..*. a harness allows for a cooler alternative, when the circumstances allow. Get both. There were many days when wearing a PFD full time would have meant staying home - little ones don't have the heat tolerance of adults.* The danger of heatstroke would rival the danger of drowning.
> 
> That said, a little one can never be out of adult sight. Tape em' down, if you have to.


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## Alden44GER

A PFD does not replace a tether and harness either. A PFD is nice to grab the child gone over board, that's all. It does not prevent the child form being drowned. When my son (2) went over board in the harbour (with a Secumar PFD, correct size, but no tether nor harness) he turned face down DUE TO THE BUOYANCY OF THE DIAPERS.

When I complained about that the seller told me I should have read the tag in the inside of the PFD more closely. It says "full performance may not be achieved using certain clothing or in other circumstances".

So I read the tag more closely and found that it is "not compatible with safety harness!" as well.

Luis



sailingdog said:


> IMHO, you'd be better off getting the ones that attach to the tether on the back. The reason for this is simple. If they fall overboard and are being dragged face forward, they will likely drown before you can stop the boat. If the harness and tether attach on the back, they will be dragged backwards through the water and there is far less chance of them drowning.
> 
> Be aware that a tether and harness does not replace a PFD...


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## Cruisingdad

We dont use them. I am not against them per se, and every parent has to make that decision based upon their child(s) ability to swim, your comfort level with the boat, your rules and location.

We sail in warm waters. Our kids have always been on a boat if not living aboard. They can both swim. However, the standing rule on the boat is the second they come up the companionway, their life jacket has to be on. They cannot go forward without permission (which requires me watching them). In nasty weather, we send them down below.

THat is the system that works for us. Others may feel differently and should act to their comfort level. I will say that we will likely be buying Chase (my oldest) an inflateable with harness soon as our destinations may require him having to go forward with me in less than ideal conditions. However, many of you have no interest in bluewater sailing/passages, and that might be an overkill.

I am not in any way trying to waver anyones opinion. I am only telling you what we do and what works for us.

Brian

PS Mustang it top notch good stuff. If you want a headrest with crotch strap, I would buy nothing else. If your child cannot swim well, I would buy nothing else. For inflateables, we lean to Sospenders with harness, but that is just our preference.


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## JohnRPollard

T37Chef,

As you've seen from the responses, there are different views on this subject. Here are mine:



> *Standing Rules*
> 
> _*PFDs --*_
> 
> *Non-swimmers* -- Regardless of age, must wear a life jacket (pfd) at all times while on deck, dock, dinghy.
> 
> *Swimmers*
> 
> -- 12 and under, at all times when underway (per USCG rules), on deck, dock, dinghy
> 
> -- Over 12, as conditions and course warrant
> 
> _*Harnesses*_ -- Subject to exceptions noted below,
> 
> - Off-shore, used at all times (day/night, fair/foul weather) when on deck
> 
> - In-shore/coastal, as conditions and crew contingent dictate
> 
> _Exceptions:_
> 
> - Harnesses will be worn in-shore/coastal for overnight passages
> 
> - Harnesses will be worn in-shore/coastal when water temps present increased risk of hypothermia
> 
> - Harnesses will be used in-shore/coastal when solo- or _effectively_ solo-sailing
> 
> - Harnesses may be omitted when parents conclude risk to young children from using is greater than benefit


So, we would always have any non-swimmer wear a pfd. Wearing a harness is not a substitute. Case closed.

Harnesses have their place too. But, harnesses can be tricky with some young kids, particularly toddlers. They only work if the individual is clipped in -- yet kids can unclip in a flash. And as another member pointed out, just like at home/on land, there can be a very serious risk of strangulation when toddlers have unsupervised access to chords, lines, etc.

Sometimes that risk is of the accidental kind, other times it is deliberate on the part of the toddler. But it is very real and you only need to go look at the statistics. Toddlers and chords are not a good combination.

Ultimately, there is no substitute for vigilance. Having young kids aboard does add stress for the parents, and neither pfds nor harnesses are a cure-all. But once kids become competent swimmers, and they are at least able to maintain their heads above water while wearing the pfd, the margin of safety does improve. So early swimming lessons are important too.

We've always favored the Mustang pfds for our kids. But that Crewsaver pfd to which Docksaver linked is a very nice unit.


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## sailingdog

JRP—

Sensible set of rules. I'd point out that being in the cockpit on most boats requires the wearing of PFDs by children in many states. Only being down below, in the cabin, removes that requirement.


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## T37Chef

Thanks for the responses, all good. I really appreciate the time spent in discussing the pros and con and all the information.

I think I will buy the one from defender and use it as we feel its needed.

Not that I agree with the MD law, but my understanding is PFD's are not required to be worn on a boat over 21 ft in length?

"Maryland law states that all children under the age of 7 must WEAR a United States Coast Guard approved Personal Flotation Device (life jacket - Type I, II, III or V) while underway on a recreational vessel under 21 feet in length on Maryland waters."
Maryland Department of Natural Resources - Boating


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## chef2sail

Shaun,

Wait for Defenders 4 day sale march 25-28


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## sailingdog

Believe PFDs are required unless the kids are in the cabin.


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## puddinlegs

scottyt said:


> sorry for the high jack shawn.
> 
> as for the harness does anybody make a pfd for kids with a built in harness, or seen a strong lifting handle a tether could be attached to? doing a harness and a separate pfd seems like it could get annoying to all involved


agreed! Would be nice if extrasport or others would just make a standard life vest with a built in harness. I'm still never comfortable trusting inflatables, and the expense of these for kids, hell adults for that matter, seems pretty silly. (no, please don't 'what's your life worth' me... the cheaper option we know works each and every time. The expensive option is merely more 'comfortable'. Yes, I'm stupid and have both. End of rant. Carry on.


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## Cruisingdad

puddinlegs said:


> agreed! Would be nice if extrasport or others would just make a standard life vest with a built in harness. I'm still never comfortable trusting inflatables, and the expense of these for kids, hell adults for that matter, seems pretty silly. (no, please don't 'what's your life worth' me... the cheaper option we know works each and every time. The expensive option is merely more 'comfortable'. Yes, I'm stupid and have both. End of rant. Carry on.


I wonder if the reason that has not happened is that the jacket would be incredibly bulky and uncomfortable? In order to support the webbing, I would think the material and internal structure would really have to be beefed up. It might be like wearing a backpack on your chest. Just my guess.

I am sure someone makes one somewhere. I would check some Australian and EU manufacturers. For many (including me) I bet that thing would sit idle in the lazarette many times it should have been worn. I cannot imagine trying to work a winch or anything else for any amount of time with that thing on. And down here in the subtropics or tropics... pfft. Wow, that would be hot.

Brian


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## serah

*Small size harness*

A somewhat off-topic reply.

I was at a local chandlery here in Vancouver last summer, when the Mustang rep came through, and I had a chance to speak with him (I believe his name was Paul.) I'm a short gal, only 5'1. I had been considering buying a Mustang hydrostatic inflatable lifejacket with integrated harness, but upon reading their owner's manual, was informed that the harness was not authorized for people under 5'5". When I asked the rep he said that it was not Mustang's decision to not make them smaller, but that was what all harnesses in Canada must be rated for, as it was mandated by the Department of Transportation. There are no other options for legal harnesses for those of smaller stature. This information may be incorrect, but it was what I heard. IIRC, it was because the straps of the harness drop too low around the floating ribs, instead of the ribcage proper, resulting in potentially broken ribs, or worse.

Which brings us back to finding a properly fitting harness for kids (small kids are apparently different.) Finding a decent harness may be a challenge for teens and preteens. Something to be aware of, that the harness sits high around their chest, and not drops around their waist.


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## sailingdog

Serah-

Try the Spinlock PFDs with integrated harnesses. They will probably work for you, as they're actually made by a climbing harness manufacturer-petzl. 

The West Marine integrated PFD/harness setups are even worse, you need to be 5' 8" for them to be safe to wear.



serah said:


> A somewhat off-topic reply.
> 
> I was at a local chandlery here in Vancouver last summer, when the Mustang rep came through, and I had a chance to speak with him (I believe his name was Paul.) I'm a short gal, only 5'1. I had been considering buying a Mustang hydrostatic inflatable lifejacket with integrated harness, but upon reading their owner's manual, was informed that the harness was not authorized for people under 5'5". When I asked the rep he said that it was not Mustang's decision to not make them smaller, but that was what all harnesses in Canada must be rated for, as it was mandated by the Department of Transportation. There are no other options for legal harnesses for those of smaller stature. This information may be incorrect, but it was what I heard. *IIRC, it was because the straps of the harness drop too low around the floating ribs, instead of the ribcage proper, resulting in potentially broken ribs, or worse.*_ (this is correct)_
> 
> Which brings us back to finding a properly fitting harness for kids (small kids are apparently different.) Finding a decent harness may be a challenge for teens and preteens. Something to be aware of, that the harness sits high around their chest, and not drops around their waist.


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## puddinlegs

Cruisingdad said:


> I wonder if the reason that has not happened is that the jacket would be incredibly bulky and uncomfortable? In order to support the webbing, I would think the material and internal structure would really have to be beefed up. It might be like wearing a backpack on your chest. Just my guess.
> 
> I am sure someone makes one somewhere. I would check some Australian and EU manufacturers. For many (including me) I bet that thing would sit idle in the lazarette many times it should have been worn. I cannot imagine trying to work a winch or anything else for any amount of time with that thing on. And down here in the subtropics or tropics... pfft. Wow, that would be hot.
> 
> Brian


Paddling type vests are pretty common on race boats specifically because they're easy to work in. But then again, the water and air is chillier than a lot of other places so it's not uncomfortable on most days.


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## ottos

sailingdog said:


> Serah-
> 
> Try the Spinlock PFDs with integrated harnesses. They will probably work for you, as they're actually made by a climbing harness manufacturer-petzl.


I understand that this doesn't affect Serah (being from BC), but it should be noted that the Spinlock is not USCG approved - unless something has changed since I was shopping. It does however, seem to be a very nice vest. In the US, you could wear it, but it wouldn't count ...

.


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## sailingdog

very true, but I carry the big ORANGE FOAM TYPE I's to be in compliance, and wear the Spinlock to be comfortable.


ottos said:


> I understand that this doesn't affect Serah (being from BC), but it should be noted that the Spinlock is not USCG approved - unless something has changed since I was shopping. It does however, seem to be a very nice vest. In the US, you could wear it, but it wouldn't count ...
> 
> .


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## rtbates

T37Chef said:


> I have been contemplating the purchase of a children's safety harness's for my kids (3&5). Why shouldn't I have them for the kids? I don't ever recall hearing of discussion good or bad about kids wearing them, so before I make the purchase I wanted to get some real life experience feedback from you...
> 
> Here one from Defender
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|135|88189&id=142669


I agree, kids should have them. What I did, since I make my own harnesses, is make an adult harness and adjust it to fit by making folds and sewing to shorten the straps. I can now let it out as my grandson grows so that it always fits him to tee. I sized it so that it fits OVER his pfd.


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## Cruisingdad

rtbates said:


> I agree, kids should have them. What I did, since I make my own harnesses, is make an adult harness and adjust it to fit by making folds and sewing to shorten the straps. I can now let it out as my grandson grows so that it always fits him to tee.


If your kid wears that and get sunburned, won't he look like a Union Jack? That thing made in Britain??

Just kidding by the way.

Brian


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## T37Chef

sailingdog said:


> IMHO, you'd be better off getting the ones that attach to the tether on the back.


Before I buy two during the defender sale next week, where do I find ones like you suggest?

I found one at Wal Mart? 
Walmart.com: Goldbug - 2-in-1 Monkey Child Safety Harness: Travel Solutions


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## T37Chef

Heres another?

Anchor Marine

Whitworths Marine: Burke Child Safety Harness


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## cormeum

T37Chef said:


> Before I buy two during the defender sale next week, where do I find ones like you suggest?
> 
> I found one at Wal Mart?
> Walmart.com: Goldbug - 2-in-1 Monkey Child Safety Harness: Travel Solutions


Useless without a crotch strap.


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## T37Chef

cormeum said:


> Useless without a crotch strap.


Yea, but the monkey on the back is cool


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## cruisingmom

We sail with 3 kids. Rules are, when underway, everyone has a life vest on
( except in the cabin.) The adults had inflatables. With passages,or rough seas, we harnessed in, including the kids, under the lifejacket.
Though we sailed from the time they were babies, we only started using harnesses when we were cruising. The youngest always had a lifejacket on, except when in the cabin. This still holds true until he proves he is a better swimmer. ( he is 7 now).We have started letting him sit in the cockpit without one when at anchor. The older two are teens and now just wear lifejackets when under way ( with protest from them and the captain). We now have inflatables for them to make it easier. Harnesses for rough seas and passages.
I would not trust an inflatable with a younger child. Too many variables.
Get one with the hook on the back, handy in more than one instance. 
( Moving from dinghy to boat, rock climbing . My youngest wore one so often it was second nature.
It is best to establish rules that are clear. Be aware that if you wear one as well, you set a good example!
Best wishes. This is just what we have done, Cruisingmom and chief safety officer.


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## sailingdog

Be aware that in many states, if the child is not in the cabin, a PFD IS REQUIRED, at least for children under the age of 12.



cruisingmom said:


> We sail with 3 kids. Rules are, when underway, everyone has a life vest on
> ( except in the cabin.) The adults had inflatables. With passages,or rough seas, we harnessed in, including the kids, under the lifejacket.
> Though we sailed from the time they were babies, we only started using harnesses when we were cruising. The youngest always had a lifejacket on, except when in the cabin. This still holds true until he proves he is a better swimmer. ( he is 7 now).We have started letting him sit in the cockpit without one when at anchor. The older two are teens and now just wear lifejackets when under way ( with protest from them and the captain). We now have inflatables for them to make it easier. Harnesses for rough seas and passages.
> I would not trust an inflatable with a younger child. Too many variables.
> Get one with the hook on the back, handy in more than one instance.
> ( Moving from dinghy to boat, rock climbing . My youngest wore one so often it was second nature.
> It is best to establish rules that are clear. Be aware that if you wear one as well, you set a good example!
> Best wishes. This is just what we have done, Cruisingmom and chief safety officer.


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## T37Chef

*Over or Under?*

So I purchased two from Defender, after all we're sailing the Chesapeake for now, in most cases I would have them go below in bad weather anyway.

I see some of you saying the harness should be fitted over a PFD, some say under . I suppose the best is to go with what the manufacturer states  Does it matter and why?

Thanks for all the feedback.


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## pdqaltair

*Let me start by saying I'm not "captain safety"...*

... but that I am not speaking from theory or regulations either. I have a thousand days in harnesses and real world experieince with kids, both climbing and sailing.

Sail Delmarva: Are You "Captain Safety?"

The main thing with any harness is FIT. The straps on combo harnesses are too low and can cause broken ribs. It's happened.

A harness for a kid must fit well. they have less bone structure and can slidd out. If you think that is a concern on a boat, it is a REAL concern on a cliff. Crotch straps are required.

A small child must be within adult sight at all times.

As for PFDs on larger boat, grand words from the CG and folks that don't summer in hot climates. There is no harness that is not too hot under some circumstances. The answer is responsibility and parenting. Hard rules lead to solutions that don't make sense. I can think of endless OSHA examples.

If it gets nasty, a PFd will go over a kids harness easily - done it many times.


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## sailingdog

Under, especially if the PFD is an inflatable.... If it is over the PFD it is too loose and can slide off the body or down on the body and cause injury in use. If it is over an inflatable PFD...and the PFD inflates, it will suffocate the kid by preventing him/her from breathing.



T37Chef said:


> So I purchased two from Defender, after all we're sailing the Chesapeake for now, in most cases I would have them go below in bad weather anyway.
> 
> I see some of you saying the harness should be fitted over a PFD, some say under . I suppose the best is to go with what the manufacturer states  Does it matter and why?
> 
> Thanks for all the feedback.


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## T37Chef

I wish they made an inflatable PFD for kids, or did I miss something somewhere?


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## bloodhunter

Chef,
One added thing. Whatever safety device you require your kids to wear, you need to wear one too along with everyone else on board. Our kids grew up on our boats -- in fact one of our sons was almost born aboard. We had them all wear harnesses with short tethers and they had to hook up to the jacklines whenever they came on deck. 
As has been pointed out, there are a lot of days during the Chesapeake summer when wearing a regular life jacket would be considered cruel and unusual punishment and banned under the 8th amendment. On those days the kids wore onlly the hanresses and tethers. 
I'm firmly convinced that the reason they took to it so easily was that my wife and I also wore harnesses and hooked up whenever we came up topside. Do as I says not as I do never worked real well with out kids and expect not with many others.
It also was good practice for when we cruised up to New England and they would hook up without even thinking whenever they came topside.


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