# Swinging on Mooring



## flyingriki (Sep 27, 2012)

Any new thoughts on how to minimize this? Don't have the small sail to use so that won't help. Does someone have a source for those? Centered the rudder, didn't help. Maybe hold it all to one side? Move the boom to one side? First night with strong winds and swinging more than others, I think...


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## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

If you don't have a snubber on your pennant, try adding one. I was amazed at how much less Moon sailed at anchor or on a mooring when I added one.....


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm willing to bet that you think you're swinging more than you really are. No doubt that certain boats swing more, but it can feel like more than it really is. Not unlike, after you hop in the dinghy, you are much further from your neighbor than it appears from aboard.

Higher topsides, more canvas, etc can indeed give the wind more to work on. I suspect different keels matter too. I find the only time I'm really concerned about it, is when I'm swinging next to a powerboat, where we are often out of synch and swinging toward each other (they are influenced almost strictly by the wind and us by current as well).

This is the one I have. I admit I almost never use it. I need to fashion some quick connects that are preset to length. Hoisting, tying it off, adjusting, I find to be more annoying than the swinging. I'll only do it, if I really think the swinging will be a safety issue and it almost never is.

https://www.bannerbaymarine.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=5


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

You can have a old sail cut down to be a riding sail... This is well worth it and will keep a boat weather cocked to the wind. A mooring snubber with a compensator might prevent hobby horsing but yawing on the mooring.


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## Gladrags1 (Apr 9, 2003)

I bet the swinging has a lot to do with a current opposing the wind. The wind increases and you weathervane into it. It lets up and the current rules. Full keels react more to current and fin somewhat less so the type of keel you have had an effect too. Powerboats are less effected by current, particularly if they are tall. So all boats will swing differently, hopefully not too the extent where they are colliding. I don't believe there is much you can do so enjoy the ride.

Tod


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Perhaps a lot heavier chain farther to the boat (with a shorter line) would help?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Obviously when there is current and it is contrary the boat behavior will be "confused".

However most anchorages are in locations with very moderate current and the main cause of the yawing is the bow being pushed off the eye if the wind... then the wind pushed at the side of the boat pushing the stern which builds some momentum and swings thru the eye of the wind presenting the other side to the wind and this repeats.

The riding sail will keep the stern "aligned" with the wind and lessen it from moving from being aligned with the bow in the eye of the wind. Obviously fin keels do little to prevent yawing... and high freeboards promote it. A fractional rig with windage forward of the center of effort will also increase yawing.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

We find that dragging a bucket or two off the stern helps to slow or reduce swinging. Setting the rudder off center can also help. Situations are often different at different anchorages.


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## Gladrags1 (Apr 9, 2003)

"However most anchorages are in locations with very moderate current and the main cause". Really? You must not have anchored/moored along the ICW then. For instance the moorings in St Augustine had a very strong current which effected us more than the winds except when they piped up. My flags beat themselves to shreds against the shrouds.


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## flyingriki (Sep 27, 2012)

Am inside a bay with pretty light current and have been having some strong winds. Looking out the window I see other flying by as I swing. Will try offsetting the rudder. Had thought centering was proper. On a ball so no chain involved.

As for snubbers. Are we talking the rubber types or a short length of stretchy line on each side, looped into the line to the mooring? They are pretty fussy about 4' max lengths on both lines to the mooring ball,

Thanks all!!


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Gladrags1 said:


> "However most anchorages are in locations with very moderate current and the main cause". Really? You must not have anchored/moored along the ICW then. For instance the moorings in St Augustine had a very strong current which effected us more than the winds except when they piped up. My flags beat themselves to shreds against the shrouds.


Correct... I have not been in and therefore not anchored in the ditch. My anchoring experience were in the Caribe (4 yrs) often in the lee of an island... or in Philipsberg, English Harbor, Falmouth, Il des Saintes, Rodney bay and so on... in LIS in Newport, Prt Jeff, 3 mile Harbor, Cuttyhunk. There are currents in these locations... some stronger than others... but usually no more than 1 knot or so.


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

Gladrags1 said:


> I bet the swinging has a lot to do with a current opposing the wind. The wind increases and you weathervane into it. It lets up and the current rules. Full keels react more to current and fin somewhat less so the type of keel you have had an effect too. Powerboats are less effected by current, particularly if they are tall. So all boats will swing differently, hopefully not too the extent where they are colliding. I don't believe there is much you can do so enjoy the ride.
> 
> Tod


This is what I experienced anchoring a chartered Catalina 30 in Bahia Honda State Park in the Keys. There is a stout current that flows from around the North side of the island, under the bridges. That response of wind versus current, affects each boat differently, based on size and type of boat, type of keel, windage of the freeboard, displacement and type of keel.

There was no depth sounder on the boat, so I could only estimate based on depths given in the charts. I laid out extra scope, just to be safe, due to the current, and the fact that the anchor tackle was on the adequate side, rather than oversized. Failure would mean breaking up on a bridge piling.

I anchored in a space that seemed sufficient, between another boat and the beach. The other boat appeared to be longer (34?) and was likely a larger displacement, as it appeared to be an owner operated boat fully equipped for liveaboard.

When I did a status check during a bathroom break at about 1:00 AM, I was a little disoriented. Our boat had changed angle and position, relative to the beach and the bridges. The current had previously had us oriented parallel to the beach, lined up with the other boat, and bow pointing toward the current bridge and stern toward the abandoned bridge.

During the night a stout wind blew in across the island that ran counter to the current. We were now oriented bow toward the beach, more parallel to the bridges, and stern toward our neighboring boat. At first I was afraid that we had dragged anchor. The other boat did not appear to have swung much, if at all. It seems, that with his greater length, displacement, and whatever keel he had, his boat remained with the current. The Catalina, being lighter and less loaded down, responded more to the wind.

My stern was now aimed at his starboard side and I was almost perpendicular to him. It was very disorienting, because on previous nights, our boat had swung similarly to all other boats, in anchorages where it was only due to wind.

With the longer rode I had paid out, we had now swung uncomfortably close to our neighbor. I didn't want to wake up my crew, and the rest of the anchorage, firing up the engine to reset the anchor in the dark, or try to shorten the rode. I tried to get a reference for the distance by sighting through parts of the dodger, referenced to points on the shore, and parts of the other boat. I stayed up for an hour making sure we weren't dragging anchor and weren't getting closer to the other boat, and it appeared that we hadn't and that it was all due to my longer rode and greater response to wind than current.

By morning light, the wind had died down and we were back aligned with the neighboring boat, in the same position as the previous afternoon, confirming that we had not dragged anchor any at all. It gave me a new appreciation for how different boats can respond very differently to wind versus current, when the two exist together.

It was a good lesson for me, that there are a lot of factors to consider when anchoring around different types of boats.


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## Gladrags1 (Apr 9, 2003)

This is what I experienced anchoring a chartered Catalina 30 in Bahia Honda State Park in the Keys. There is a stout current that flows from around the North side of the island, under the bridges. That response of wind versus current, affects each boat differently, based on size and type of boat, type of keel, windage of the freeboard, displacement and type of keel.[/QUOTE]

When were you there? My understanding is that the holding between the Bridges was compromised by the effects of Irma. Just curious if you were there post Irma and found that to be so?


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## bigdogandy (Jun 21, 2008)

:grin


flyingriki said:


> Am inside a bay with pretty light current and have been having some strong winds. Looking out the window I see other flying by as I swing. Will try offsetting the rudder. Had thought centering was proper. On a ball so no chain involved.
> 
> As for snubbers. Are we talking the rubber types or a short length of stretchy line on each side, looped into the line to the mooring? They are pretty fussy about 4' max lengths on both lines to the mooring ball,
> 
> Thanks all!!


I have one of the rubber stretchy thingys and it made a big difference for me.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Might not work on your boat but has worked on 2 out of 3 of mine. Snubber leads back about six feet from the bow. This holds the bow slightly off the wind and seems to keep it there.


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## flyingriki (Sep 27, 2012)

bigdogandy said:


> :grin
> 
> I have one of the rubber stretchy thingys and it made a big difference for me.


On a mooring ball I have 4 lines, actually the two loops, so where would you put a rubber snubber? On all 4 lines I guess...!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Ask around, especially if there are any lofts or boatyards. If you can find an old worn out sail, try to find a good piece that you can fold in two to make a two-meter square riding sail out of it. Just to see if it will help, even if you buy a cheap bedsheet or plastic tarp and try that. Wrap the sheet around the backstay, so you just have to tie or duct tape the two forward edges together for the night and see if the concept will work for you. If it does, by all means put something more classify and durable together.

Obviously your boat is chomping at the bit and wants to get underway!


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

midwesterner said:


> That is what I experienced anchoring a chartered Catalina 30 in Bahia Honda State Park in the Keys. There is a stout current that flows from around the North side of the island, under the bridges.





Gladrags1 said:


> When were you there [Bahia Honda]? My understanding is that the holding between the Bridges was compromised by the effects of Irma. Just curious if you were there post Irma and found that to be so?


I was there pre-Irma so I don't know.

It would seem unlikely that holding conditions would have changed because of that. There is sort of an indented protected area close to the beach that is between bridge abutments from both bridges. It's on the lee side of the island, from hurricanes from the south.

It was all sand bottom. I could maybe see a storm surge washing sand away and making it deeper there. Maybe if there is some bedrock shelf underneath, and the sand was all washed away leaving bare bedrock? But I don't know the geology around the Keys to know what's under the sand, I assumed it was just more sand.

Have you heard what was supposed to be changed about the holding characteristics?


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

Gladrags1 said:


> That is what I experienced anchoring a chartered Catalina 30 in Bahia Honda State Park in the Keys. There is a stout current that flows from around the North side of the island, under the bridges.


When were you there? My understanding is that the holding between the Bridges was compromised by the effects of Irma. Just curious if you were there post Irma and found that to be so?[/QUOTE]

The View toward the beach doesn't really show the indented curvature of the beach but it is fairly well indented there. The view from the beach shows you that the area is all sand. I don't know how a hurricane could wash all the sand out. On the back side of the island, I would think, if anything, a storm surge would push more sand in and leave it trapped when it receeds.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

A 2nd line run further back on the boat will reduce the...wagging.
You are the tail.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Nothing stops a boat from swinging back and forth except sinking


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

boatpoker said:


> Might not work on your boat but has worked on 2 out of 3 of mine. Snubber leads back about six feet from the bow. This holds the bow slightly off the wind and seems to keep it there.


Many years ago (35+) we knew the owner of an Atlantic City catboat. This boat has a high freeboard and therefore lots of windage. The owner discovered that he could reduce sailing aroung at anchor by rigging a bridle arrangement similar to boatpoker's, but with a much longer line to a midship or stern cleat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The visual sight of swinging feels like the boat is out of control. But, is it? Should we really care?

Personally, I've never felt physically uncomfortable aboard, because of the motion of swinging. It's all been mental. In fact, I'm not sure I can physically sense it. Motion sensation at anchor is due to wave action.

Are we concerned that we'll swing into a neighbor? Possibly, but again, I'll bet they're further than they look. Mixed hull types could make this a possibility. 

I suppose, yawing back and forth is not great for the anchor set. However, I'll bet a significant yaw isn't over an arch greater than 30 degrees each side of center. That should not pull an anchor, if set well in the first place. In my case, I find yaw to be more pronounced in light to moderate gusty winds, where the anchor should not let go. When it's blowing stink, the rode is bar tight and we're being pushed back hard and I find less yaw. Not none, but less. Of course, there are no absolutes. There can be heavy, shifty, gusty winds too. I just try not to be out anchored in them or near others I need to worry about. Even when cruising, I'll try to choose/time my anchorages based on weather.

Ironically, the closest I've come to swinging into a neighbor (and we both needed to fend off) was in near zero wind and no current. Everyone was just randomly drifting around. Although, come to think of it, we were on a mooring at the time.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

RegisteredUser said:


> A 2nd line run further back on the boat will reduce the...wagging.
> You are the tail.


you could do a bridle to mid ship cleats...but you need to watch for chafe at the bow.

You'll want a bridle which attaches to the mooring pennant(s) and doesn't chafe. If there are 2 penants you can use two 25' + dock lines one attached to each pennant loop. If there is one attach each dockline to the loop.

https://www.netknots.com/fishing_knots/loop-to-loop-knot


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## Jeff356 (May 4, 2016)

Our boat also struggles with "sailing" at anchor and found the solution that reduces that the most is a combination of bridle setup and deploying an anchor riding sail. In addition I try to reduce windage, like a dinghy in the front deck.

This reduces the yawing back and forth but never totally eliminates it, but greatly reduces the worry. Also have the thought that the yawing back and forth is yanking the anchor so I make sure all the chain is out so it can dampen that effect prior to the anchor. Anchoring in a tidal flow can mess that up and really throws a monkey wrench into the scenario, so if possible I avoid those situations as much as possible.

As much as I would like to eliminate this, short of another boat i.e. hull design, I keep trying to find ways to reduce the effects.

Jeff


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> The visual sight of swinging feels like the boat is out of control. But, is it? Should we really care?
> 
> Personally, I've never felt physically uncomfortable aboard, because of the motion of swinging. It's all been mental. In fact, I'm not sure I can physically sense it. Motion sensation at anchor is due to wave action.
> 
> Are we concerned that we'll swing into a neighbor? Possibly, but again, I'll bet they're further than they look. Mixed hull types could make this a possibility.


We experienced a very uncomfortable situation a while back when anchored (all chain) at Ile Fourche (St. Barts). The boat (37' Waquiez-fin keel) would sail back and forth, rollng us over in the vee berth when it hit the stops. We could not sleep and moved to the quarter berth for some relief.

BTW, we had plenty of room: don't recall another boat in the anchorage, so no danger of bumping anyone and the anchor set was fine.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

Like many/all (?) fin-keel boats we used to have that problem.
Fixed it many years ago.
The little steady-ing sail is inexpensive and works like the fletching on an arrow. NO wandering back n forth.

See our boat in reply 18. Boat Swings Wildly at Anchor in a breeze - Page 2


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## flee27 (Jan 16, 2018)

https://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/D_14.htm

interesting article on this subject from the Jordan Series Drogue website.

Foster


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

This is interesting.

If you want the excel file which you can input your boat's stats and wind conditions... email or message me and I will send the file. Have fun!


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

flyingriki said:


> Any new thoughts on how to minimize this? Don't have the small sail to use so that won't help. Does someone have a source for those? Centered the rudder, didn't help. Maybe hold it all to one side? Move the boom to one side? First night with strong winds and swinging more than others, I think...


I sometimes deploy an anti-sail drogue when at anchor. Should work on a mooring too: https://biankablog.blogspot.com/2010/09/lessons-from-hurricane-anti-sail-drogue.html


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Wagging at anchor....
Why do find this uncomfortable?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Can’t easily rig a steady sail. Always use snubbers at anchor. So needed to search for a better cure. Have an attachment point near waterline below bobstay. Run line from that to rode or mooring. Gives more horizontal pull on the boat. Also put inset in between hard dodger and hard Bimini. In other words do what you can to increase wind resistance way aft. Lastly leave dinghy in the water if low theft risk in area. 
When on mooring use two pendants. Have one a wee bit tighter. 
In strong current (3-5kts) if batteries are up can use AP. Used AP in a river when tide was going out with river flowing and got no swing at all. Never used this technique while sleeping.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

fallard said:


> ....The boat (37' Waquiez-fin keel) would sail back and forth, rollng us over in the vee berth when it hit the stops. .....


Wondering what you mean by hit the stops. I must sleep at anchor or mooring about 50-70 nights per year and never recall sensing the swing. I've certainly never had swing keep me awake.

Rolling or pitching is a different story, I've been pitched out of bed by a nasty roll more than once. However, those are due to wave/wake action, not swinging.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Wondering what you mean by hit the stops. I must sleep at anchor or mooring about 50-70 nights per year and never recall sensing the swing. I've certainly never had swing keep me awake.
> 
> Rolling or pitching is a different story, I've been pitched out of bed by a nasty roll more than once. However, those are due to wave/wake action, not swinging.


We were sailing back and forth at anchor. When the boat swung to the limit-port or starboard- there was an abrupt stop to the swing, due to the all chain rode not having much "give". Water depth was 20-30 ft.

That was a charter boat. Our own boat, with a low aspect fin keel, has a rode comprised of 30' of chain spliced to 8-plait nylon braid. We have never had this issue here in the northeast, where we rarely anchor in more than 20 ft and always have 7:1 scope for an overnight stop.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

fallard said:


> ....When the boat swung to the limit-port or starboard- there was an abrupt stop to the swing, due to the all chain rode not having much "give"....


How much wind was there? I've never experienced an abrupt stop to swinging at anchor.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> How much wind was there? I've never experienced an abrupt stop to swinging at anchor.


Winds were not that high-maybe low 20's, but it was shifty. The winds were influenced by the volcanic island, which we've often seen in the islands. We were in the lea of the island, as usual, and when you get closer to land, there are eddies formed as the prevailing wind comes over the steep hills.

Unlike in our New England neck of the woods, you are not pointing into the prevailing winds, but are at the mercy of eddies, which can make it tricky when the anchorage gets crowded and the boats don't move in synchrony. That's when you consider a stern anchor to quiet things down. The closer to land, the worse it gets.


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## Gladrags1 (Apr 9, 2003)

Interesting! I have never felt the boat coming to an abrupt stop during a way event either. At least not🙁to the extent we fell off the settees!


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Maybe a katabatic burst


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Been thinking about this. Really like Mikes idea of a small sea anchor off the bow. If I have time will,try to do this.
I commonly pick up a mooring at the stern when I need do it myself. Never paid attention to if that decreases sailing at rest. Will now. Would have to change my technique as usually go to just one side. If I think it’s going to blow then once sorted out put a line to the penant and switch to bow first with lines to both cleats. 
Good thread. Has got me thinking about this in greater detail.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

outbound said:


> Been thinking about this. Really like Mikes idea of a small sea anchor off the bow. If I have time will,try to do this.
> I commonly pick up a mooring at the stern when I need do it myself. Never paid attention to if that decreases sailing at rest. Will now. Would have to change my technique as usually go to just one side. If I think it's going to blow then once sorted out put a line to the penant and switch to bow first with lines to both cleats.
> Good thread. Has got me thinking about this in greater detail.


I was thinking you might also want to try an anchor drogue off the stern too. Though the bow deployment worked for me.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Having winds from all points used have Thane dragging chain on the chain bobstay. XXXXX !! Peaking up the gaff mizzen helped overcome the forward windage of the main topmast. Mounting a snatch block out on the end of 12 ft of bowsprit always worked. A chain hook on a long pendant back to the samson post allowed me to slack the winch until all the action was way forw'd. Letting out more scope in the middle of the night meant knowing how to be right the first time.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

So, I'm curious. Besides the mention of being tossed out of their bunk, which is notably unusual, why do we care if we yaw at anchor? Hitting something, pulling the hook, control freak?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Yawing can promote chafing of the mooring pennants or anchor bridal. The motion is more complex that swinging.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> Yawing can promote chafing of the mooring pennants or anchor bridal. The motion is more complex that swinging.


Good point, but apply some chafe guard and Bob's your uncle. Much easier to resolve than yawing.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Minnie don’t care for Bob. We have a solid rod bobstay that has turnbuckles at both ends. As the pendants ride over the end of the turnbuckle they make a thump. It’s annoying when you are trying to sleep. I don’t get it when anchored and using twin snubbers but do on a mooring with twin pendants. I don’t like depending on moorings especially in the Caribbean but sometimes forced to use them. Using the fitting under the bobstay attachment to the hull circumvents this and also decreases sailing at anchor. It also decreases the swing circle diameter. It’s a PIA to rig from the dinghy with a chop running but otherwise not a biggie. 
I like the idea of a small drogue. Where did you get yours? Or did you sew one up yourself?


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

Minnewaska said:


> So, I'm curious. Besides the mention of being tossed out of their bunk, which is notably unusual, why do we care if we yaw at anchor? Hitting something, pulling the hook, control freak?


My worry, before we 'fixed' the swinging problem, was that after dark we might start to drag the anchor in all that to-ing and fro-ing... and not realize it right away. In our case there was nothing dangerous to drag into and we faced only potential embarrassment of having to be towed out of the marsh mud. :crying

As others note, it is also good to keep some control over the 'room' you take up in an anchorage.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> Minnie ......
> I like the idea of a small drogue. Where did you get yours? Or did you sew one up yourself?


Don't think I mentioned a drogue. I have an anchor sail, which I linked above, but very rarely use it.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

I think people overly worry about this.
Go the land based RV route...no swing or wagging.
Its life and its not boring, but interesting.
Adapt and smile


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

RegisteredUser said:


> I think people overly worry about this.
> Go the land based RV route...no swing or wagging.
> Its life and its not boring, but interesting.
> Adapt and smile


yes and no...yawing when it causes chafe IS the real concern.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I've spent more than one winter sewing chafe-pro onto a custom snubber or mooring bridle. It can be placed at the location of the chocks, bow roller, bob stay, etc. I like to have these lines with spliced eyes for the deck cleats, so the chafe location is constant. If the chafe-pro shows wear, it's easily replaced. I think chafe can be more effectively managed than the swinging, neither of which can be eliminated.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

As far as chafe protection for lines goes... the fire hose material is very effective. Mooring / anchoring line chafe is from movement. The more the line is moving, the more it is likely to chafe... and yawing at anchor is movement which will lead to chafe.

Yawing can be stopped or reduced if the boat can be weather cocked into the wind... assuming that there are no squirrelly currents to deal with. Yawing happens because the boat is moored by/from the bow and can rotate from this point if wind is presented to the beam. Most effective strategy is a riding sail of the proper size.. You can also moor from the midship moving the pivot aft. Slowing down the movement with stern anchors and so forth will increase the period of the yaw... not stop it from what I understand. Long keels yawl less than short deep fin one.

You need to experiment with your boat anchored in various condition. A riding sail can be made from an old sail... it's just a triangle of stiff cloth. Ketches and yawls use their missen sail.


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