# Remote helm



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Has anyone heard of a remote helm.

That way could could control the throttle, shift and steering from a wireless hand held box.

For someone single handing it would be handy to be able to control the helm from the bow.

Probably would be pretty easy to do with the new pod drives.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Given your profile picture, why not just train your dog to work the throttle too?


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

See them frequently on large motor yachts. 
Just a matter of writing the check lol.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

davidpm said:


> Has anyone heard of a remote helm.
> 
> That way could could control the throttle, shift and steering from a wireless hand held box.
> 
> ...


They've been around for some time, and are becoming more and more common on larger powerboats, given the incredibly poor visibility and sightlines from the helm on many boats today... Frankly, such gizmos scare the hell out of me, I've witnessed more than one instance of them going haywire, I want to be at the helm if anything goes wrong... Perhaps the closest call i have EVER had with a boat involved the failure of an engine control while maneuvering in a tight spot, I dread the thought of the possible outcome if I had been somewhere other than at the helm at the time 

As such systems require the installation of electronic controls, they would certainly not be applicable to the types of boats most of us sail... I've run plenty of powerboats with electronic controls, and secondary control stations, but I've yet to come across a sailboat with electronic controls at the helm...

Dock n' Go Joysticks excepted, of course 

Perhaps it's just me, but I've done my fair share of singlehanding, and I'm hard-pressed to recall an instance where I thought controlling the helm from to bow would be much of an advantage...


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

FSMike said:


> See them frequently on large motor yachts.
> Just a matter of writing the check lol.


Really.
What it the purpose in this case?
Convenience for fishing?

What does the control look like?

You can tell I don't have much time on large motor yachts.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Just a couple of months ago in Victoria a large motor yacht under remote control backed full speed over a sailboat in an adjoining marina and into rock wall .Big holes in both but the wall is OK.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

davidpm said:


> Really.
> What it the purpose in this case?
> Convenience for fishing?
> 
> ...


Here you go, David. Read all about it: 

Sail-World.com : Beneteau's 'Dock & Go' - taking docking to a new level

(..and I guess you could correctly call a large Bendytoe a "motor yacht".. given that it's owners probably do spend a lot of time under motor..)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Classic30 said:


> Here you go, David. Read all about it:
> 
> Sail-World.com : Beneteau's 'Dock & Go' - taking docking to a new level
> 
> (..and I guess you could correctly call a large Bendytoe a "motor yacht".. given that it's owners probably do spend a lot of time under motor..)


Yup, I'd say the fact that Jeanneau's promotional video uses a boat completely devoid of sails speaks volumes 

Perhaps the most impressive feature of the 360 Docking system, is the way in which it apparently ties the boat up for you automatically, as well:


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## Capt.Alex (Jan 22, 2013)

This is the most common one available. Like others have said, they seem to be most common on mid sized power boats that are owner operated or have a small crew.

Yacht Controller - Wireless Remote Control of Your Yacht


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

davidpm said:


> Really.
> What it the purpose in this case?
> Convenience for fishing?


Docking/maneuvering in close quarters, mostly... It's astonishing, how restricted the all-around visibility can be from the helm on the bridge of many of today's motoryachts...

Try to imagine backing a boat like this into a slip or Med mooring, while standing at the helm... Looking aft on many boats like this, one cannot see ANYTHING at water level within a boat length, or more... It's no surprise so many of these boats rely on stern-mounted video cameras, as an assist...










Many boats like this will have a second control station aft, for such maneuvering, definitely the better way to go than a wireless system... a friend of mine was aboard a 72 Grand Banks being backed into a slip at Ocean Reef by her professional captain, when something went wrong with the wireless controller... did tens of thousands of dollars damage to the transom, and pretty much destroyed a portion of the dock, as well. Very fortunate no one was hurt in that one...



davidpm said:


> What does the control look like?


Little different from a TV/DVD remote, which seems appropriate, of course 

Here's one example...

Yacht Controller - Wireless Remote Control of Your Yacht


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

My remote helm looks remarkably like the admiral. I attach her to the wheel and it takes over.
I try not to leave the dock without her. 

But seriously, current generation Raymarine autopilots and chartplotters have built in wifi, and both rayview and raycontrol as app's. I can steer my boat from my smartphone - no throttle control at this point but I suppose it's possible if you put nmea 2000 stuff on your engine.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Interesting. The current version of Raycontrol on my e7d prevents it from being able to change course or direct the autopilot (you get an error whenever the autopilot dialog would pop up). What version are you using?


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

Garmin now has a watch with gps and autopilot control,

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/on-the-water/handhelds-wrist-worn/quatix-/prod120680.html,

I do not think I would trust any wireless controls in tight situations, but might be handy otherwise.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chucklesR said:


> But seriously, current generation Raymarine autopilots and chartplotters have built in wifi, and both rayview and raycontrol as app's. I can steer my boat from my smartphone - no throttle control at this point but I suppose it's possible if you put nmea 2000 stuff on your engine.


OK, Luddite alert, here 

I remain mystified by the perceived 'need' for this sort of thing on the sort of boats most of us sail. Seems to me so much of this sort of gadgetry and 'enhanced capabilitiy" is driven largely by the intense competition within the marine electronics industry, and the need to continually come out with the Next New Thing. And, may boaters wind up embracing this sort of technology, _simply BECAUSE THEY CAN..._ But, really, what is the true value of the ability to pilot your boat from elsewhere than the helm? Is that generally a seamanlike practice?

Now, I will confess that my Raymarine S100 remote controller often gets plenty of use when I'm underway, running to my tillerpilot... And there are certain situations where such a device can be extremely handy to use out of the cockpit - jibing a spinnaker singlehanded is one that comes to mind... But I still feel that operation of a boat from anywhere not within quick reach of the helm station is very poor seamanship, and should generally be discouraged...

One of the reasons I'm afraid this sort of stuff is becoming increasingly popular, is the fact that so many boats today are configured in such a manner - particularly with cockpit canvas, and massive amounts of gear stowed on deck - that the visibility from the helm has been so compromised, that one really does have to stand somewhere else, to get a proper view of where one is going... It's amazing how often I have to do this sort of thing on many of the boats I deliver, especially at night...

But I see this stuff as a dangerous trend, especially when there seems to be so little NEED for it... Even the use of things like a remote windlass control in the cockpit can be a really poor practice, and a very good way to render your windlass useless, with a chain jam that would likely not have occurred if one was actually up on the foredeck, monitoring its operation...

Sure, remote controls can be handy, but they can also pose some very serious risks of which many boaters today appear to be blissfully unaware. Some may recall that Jeanne Socrates' first circumnavigation ended on a Mexican beach, only 75 miles short of crossing her outbound track, when the 2 AAA batteries in her Raymarine S100 went dead, kicking the AP into STANDBY, and her boat veered inshore as she was below catching a nap...

Hers turned out to be a heavy price to pay, for the convenience of using a wireless remote...


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> ...Sure, remote controls can be handy, but they can also pose some very serious risks of which many boaters today appear to be blissfully unaware. Some may recall that Jeanne Socrates' first circumnavigation ended on a Mexican beach, only 75 miles short of crossing her outbound track, when the 2 AAA batteries in her Raymarine S100 went dead, kicking the AP into STANDBY, and her boat veered inshore as she was below catching a nap...


I remember you bringing up this standby issue a few months ago, so I'll put in my experience so far with my recently purchased S100.

I have not had my batteries go dead, but I have had the remote go to sleep because it timed out without my pressing a button. And when it did that the autopilot stayed engaged - it did not go into standby. Next time I think of it, I'll try pulling the battery out to simulate the battery going dead, so I can see what happens with the autopilot.

I think OP was asking about full helm control, and the S100 only does steering via the autopilot. So it's not exactly what he's curious about.

When I bought the S100 I wasn't sure if I would ever use it, but I'm happy to say that it has been a nice convenience to have. There were times when caught in heavy rain where it allowed me to sit under the bimini and steer without having to reach the wheel. Another time it was very cold out, and I was able to stay warm by sitting in the cabin on the companionway ladder with my head sticking out just enough to keep a watch (I don't have a dodger). Another time I was singlehanding and able to tack from the companionway, where my winches are located. Finally, I recently had to motor for 8 hours straight, and the outboard's noise was annoying my wife tremendously in the cockpit and even down below. With the S100, we were able to sit on the bow together and get away from the motor noise. I steered the whole way home from there.

That said, I would never use it in close quarters, and would never take a nap with it running the boat. But I'm just a daysailer and occasional cruiser.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

friend of mine who repairs my stuff has one he made in his boat--he can raise anchor and sterr at same time..not bad for solo sailor. i will have same kind of thing when he is done with my boat...lol....he can do throttle and direction with his on bow while raisingor lowering his anchor.

oh yes and my one way windlass will be modified to be a two way windlass--i will be able to lower and raise anchor with it. 

my repair guy laughs at my cool wood wheel and asks why i dont use joystick without wires...lol....soon, mon, soon....i told him to fix it.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> I remember you bringing up this standby issue a few months ago, so I'll put in my experience so far with my recently purchased S100.
> 
> I have not had my batteries go dead, but I have had the remote go to sleep because it timed out without my pressing a button. And when it did that the autopilot stayed engaged - it did not go into standby. Next time I think of it, I'll try pulling the battery out to simulate the battery going dead, so I can see what happens with the autopilot.
> 
> ...


Apparently, not all models of the S100 are the same, as Dave on AUSPICIOUS had noted... They are designed to 'go to sleep' after a period of time, but mine will only do so when the AP is in STANDBY mode, otherwise it remains on as long as the main unit is on AUTO... The only way I can turn mine off without hand steering for a few minutes, and waiting for it to turn itself off, is to remove the batteries... A real flaw in design, IMHO, but mine is a much older unit than yours, perhaps Raymarine has since worked out those issues...

So, here's my favorite story involving Amazingly Stupid Misuse of an autopilot remote...

I was running a 56' Neptunus motoryacht thru the Alligator-Pungo canal years ago, late in the season, but on a bright sunny day... I come up on a 51' Formosa/Island Trader Captain Ron machine plowing along at almost 8 knots...

As I get closer, I can't see anyone in the cockpit... I give a horn signal for a 2-whistle pass, and I finally notice an arm above the deckhouse, waving me on...

The guy is catching some rays _up on the foredeck, lounging in a freakin' LAWN CHAIR!_ Steering with an AP remote, of course...

I try to raise him on VHF, to explain to him there's _no freaking way_ I'm gonna pass him until he gets back to his helm in the cockpit, slows the beast down, and takes the damn thing off AUTO... No response whatsoever, he obviously doesn't have a handheld up there with him, or is simply not monitoring the VHF... Just repeatedly waving his arm, _COME ON BY_...

Well, OK dumbass, you asked for it  So, I drop back a bit, in order to get the Neptunus back up on a full plane to pass him. I don't want to be alongside this clown in such close quarters for any longer than I have to, and at speed I'd be throwing him less wake than if I had to creep past him at 10 knots...

So, I blow by him at 25 knots, the numbskull even gives me a nice friendly wave... Then, comes the point at which recording this encounter on video would have been priceless...

This Neptunus was an express yacht, rather low slung, so he had obviously misjudged its size, and seriously underestimated the size of the wake... Which he took on the quarter, of course... He appeared to make a belated effort to cut sharply across my wake, which of course in such close quarters only served to set him into a pretty good 'Death Roll'... Still seated in his chair (mind you, this was not a 'deck chair', but an actual chintzy lawn chair like you'd pay #11.99 for at Walmart, and the damn thing crumpled and collapsed after the first snap roll back to port...

Now, the autopilot begins to fight the wallowing beast with a series of over-corrections... The guy is trying to pick himself back up off the deck, and realizes he might be in trouble, wandering off course in such a narrow ditch... Just about the time he makes it back to the helm, he's gone aground amid some of the stumps that line the edge of the canal, pictured below... Yup, a video of all that would have been priceless, but I'll carry that image of that moron in his crumpling lawn chair in my memory to my dying day 

You'd probably be surprised, how often I've seen sailors 'driving' their boats down the Ditch in such a fashion...


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Jon - I did have a couple large boats pass me (on in the C&D canal), but I was smart enough to go back to the helm for proper steering as they passed me.

I definitely have to run a couple of tests with the S100. Now that I think of it, there was one time that I was using it that it had gone to sleep, and upon waking it up the AP was in standby when I had thought it had been in Auto. It's possible that I pressed the standby button one too many times when trying to wake up the device, but it's also possible that the device could have put the AP to sleep somehow.

I think I've also noticed that the device stays awake whenever the AP is set to Auto, but need to verify that too. So some of what I said needs to be re-checked. In my case, I'm in a narrow river, so I'm always keeping a close watch even if AP is active, so it's less critical for me. But I do want to be familiar with all the potential glitches that could happen.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have the remote for my raymarine. don't use it. scary thing is no obvious way to tell if the batteries are dead other than trying to make a course correction. if batteries go dead while being used screws up autopilot. would use it anchoring or picking up a mooring but so far feel more secure just leaving AP in standby and using wheel brake when I run forward.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, OK dumbass, you asked for it  So, I drop back a bit, in order to get the Neptunus back up on a full plane to pass him. I don't want to be alongside this clown in such close quarters for any longer than I have to, and at speed I'd be throwing him less wake than if I had to creep past him at 10 knots...
> 
> So, I blow by him at 25 knots...
> 
> ...The guy is trying to pick himself back up off the deck, and realizes he might be in trouble, wandering off course in such a narrow ditch... Just about the time he makes it back to the helm, *he's gone aground* amid some of the stumps that line the edge of the canal, pictured below...


Let me get this straight. He is maintaining course and speed, which, if I recall correctly from the rules, is within his rights to do, and you blow by him at full speed causing him to go aground?

Isn't he the stand-on vessel, and you, by virtue of passing him the give-way vessel? Aren't you responsible also for the consequences of your wake?

I know the guy wasn't exactly displaying the picture of seamanship, but by the photo you posted, it's not exactly extreme conditions either. Why not relax a little?

Frankly I'm surprised that you're willing to be so boastful of contributing to a fellow sailor going aground. It doesn't sound like he was being particularly reckless, or endangering anyone else to me. You could have passed him at 9.5knots (hull speed) and not have thrown up such a wake. You could have passed, waved back, and not ruined his day. Instead you swamp him (because you feel unsafe being next to him for a few extra seconds) and then brag about doing so.

This is not what I've come to expect from you Jon. 

MedSailor


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## Tymadman (Feb 22, 2013)

My remote controls don't go to sleep so are always ready to use. I've sold my remotes to people who are replacing their S100 remote and are happy not to have to wait for it to wake up.
I have a warning in my manual about not using the remote if altering course would result in a collision or running aground - seems to be just common sense to me.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

aha ... I was just about to mention Tymadman and his remote control. 

Why would anyone want more ? If vision is a bit dodgey from the helm it surely solves the problem without the need for full remote control. Throttle control might be a problem if you were set on being up near the pointy end when docking..


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

It all depends on the $$. The control system we install for this type of stuff is a specialized one, the company makes nothing else and it is installed OEM as the control system for several brands(Castoldi, Azimuth, Princess, Marlow etc) now. The company who developed it does nothing else, and at every step it is designed to relinquish control in case of a failure, after stepping down to what is left first(EG if thruster malfunctions it fails to engine only and adapts). All components are hardened, no electrical connection exists between Boat and Control, they are totally isolated, a sudden power surge or even a dead short of AC into the system won't cause it to go haywire, the physical separation on the boards prevents it. 
If it all fails, it kills the power to the whole system.
I was a lot more worried by it before I got into the guts of it properly. IMO now, this system at least is more robust than many of the direct cable and hydraulic systems, a customer with the latter recently lost control due to a fluid leak.
There are some similar systems on the market, but most are locked down so tight you cant see what's going on inside them, though I got to see many of them on test benches in pieces, the programming is all proprietary and locked down, and the hardware often has significant weak points. Included in that are ones like Bosch Rexroth, Skyhook/Zeus and similar.
We can actually interface with those, and others like Glendining and ZF anyways, however they all seem to have significant weaknesses.

When we do a ground up installation of it is very robust, the linear actuators on the engine and transmission are simple, tough and high quality. If they fail, almost any standard actuator can be substituted to get home, the same type can be used for everything from autopilot to engines.
Or a Teleflex actuator system can be used which is a cable connected to an actuator with manual overrides right on it, pull the lever and you have direct gears connected to the cable instead.

So it's totally doable, and can be very robust, and long term economical, but it requires time and money to do it right the first time.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> I was running a 56' Neptunus motoryacht thru the Alligator-Pungo canal years ago, late in the season, but on a bright sunny day... I come up on a 51' Formosa/Island Trader Captain Ron machine plowing along at almost 8 knots...


I've got to say Jon that seems a little mean to me too. Just because the guy misjudged things a bit and figured it would be safe to let you pass while he was at the bow I don't think he deserved to be blown off the road.

Don't forget if he waved you off you would not have the the right to pass at all. You legally have to get the forwards boats permission to pass inland.
So he was trying to be a nice guy.

Thinking of alternative you probably could have drafted him about 30' off his stern with no danger to you and 5 tooted him until he came back to the helm and radio to find out what the commotion was all about.

Frankly I don't think a guy with your credentials would do this again. I suspect you underestimated the wake and the result of the wake also.

From a legal point of view if you did what you did and he hit a submerged pole and sank his boat I suspect the the court would assign some significant part of the blame to you because despite the other boats errors you would be considered the aggressor.

But thanks for posting this as it shows that even our most experienced captains can sometimes in a split second make a bad call.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> Apparently, not all models of the S100 are the same, as Dave on AUSPICIOUS had noted... They are designed to 'go to sleep' after a period of time, but mine will only do so when the AP is in STANDBY mode, otherwise it remains on as long as the main unit is on AUTO... The only way I can turn mine off without hand steering for a few minutes, and waiting for it to turn itself off, is to remove the batteries... A real flaw in design, IMHO, but mine is a much older unit than yours, perhaps Raymarine has since worked out those issues...


OK, I just got done with a nice little evening sail. I did a couple of tests with my S100 remote. Mine is a recent vintage, purchased last November. I do not know the firmware version.

With the autopilot engaged and S100 on, I pulled out a battery to kill the remote. My autopilot (Raymarine ST4000+ wheel pilot) continued to operate. It did not go into standby.

I then reinserted the battery and pressed the standby button of the S100 to turn it back on. The remote searched for the network and initially did not find it, giving an error message and saying "No Pilot." But after a few more seconds, it did engage with the network and the display said "Pilot." This means that the remote woke up and (eventually) locked in with the autopilot without taking it into standby mode.

So it would appear that my remote can both go dead and turn back on without affecting the state of the autopilot. Like you said, this might be affected by the vintage of the S100 device. It also might be a function of the model of autopilot that the S100 is connected to.

I was not able to verify whether my S100 goes to sleep while the autopilot is engaged. It did go to sleep at one point, but I had put the AP into standby and manually steered before I noticed whether the S100 was awake or asleep.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

I hold the wheel steady with my foot if I have to peer out round the dodger for a few seconds. Does that count?


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## Tymadman (Feb 22, 2013)

PaulinVictoria said:


> I hold the wheel steady with my foot if I have to peer out round the dodger for a few seconds. Does that count?


Does your foot go to sleep after a while?


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Bit of cramp maybe.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

MedSailor said:


> Let me get this straight. He is maintaining course and speed, which, if I recall correctly from the rules, is within his rights to do, and you blow by him at full speed causing him to go aground?
> 
> Isn't he the stand-on vessel, and you, by virtue of passing him the give-way vessel? Aren't you responsible also for the consequences of your wake?
> 
> ...


Running the ICW is largely about cooperation between the wide variety of vessels that use the route. Power and sail, recreational and commercial, marine traffic and bridgetenders, and so on... I've always said, snowbirds running the Ditch would have a far better understanding of this, if they had the opportunity to make the trip at least once on a slow trawler or sailboat, and once on a big sportfisherman or fast motoryacht, all of which have equal entitlement to use of the route...

Here's the way to be overtaken by a faster boat, if the quarters are close enough where a slow pass is reasonable to expect:



> Over the years, animosity between sailors and powerboaters has increased, and as freeway drivers doing 50 in the passing lane heighten the road-rage quotient, cruising sailors must often share the blame for many of the tensions that ensue on the ICW. If you expect to be passed by a faster vessel in a courteous manner, you simply must throttle back to idle speed, thus permitting the overtaking vessel to do the same.
> 
> Though I'm a sailor on my own time, I mostly deliver sportfishing boats or fast motoryachts. My idea of a perfect pass is to first signal my intention to the slower vessel with a horn signal (one short blast if passing to starboard; two short blasts if to port). If the slower vessel accepts the faster boat's plan, then it sounds the same signal. I think that VHF communications are often unnecessary and, in most cases, overused, and a 20-plus-knot closing speed often precludes effective dialog.
> 
> ...


Over 25 years ago, I learned a very valuable lesson from an incident that could have easily ended my budding career in the delivery trade. Namely, autopilots can wig out at any time, and appear to have a greater likelihood to do so in close proximity to other vessels, or large structures such as bridges...

I was running a Grand Banks 42 on auto, when I was being passed by a large motoryacht. Fortunately, we were not particularly close, but when he was just about abeam of me, my autopilot suddenly locked hard over (It was a primitive Unipas unit, perhaps it was somehow affected by the yacht's radar which was running at the time) I was right there to take control of the boat - no harm, no foul, but I was still shaking hours later, it was a very sobering experience... Needless to say, I'm taking my boat off AUTO and hand steering when overtaken closely to this day, and I expect boats I'm passing to do the same...

If you've never run through the Alligator-Pungo Canal, it's understandable you might not appreciate the monumental stupidity of what this guy was doing... Trust me, I made a serious effort to attempt to convey to this guy I wanted to talk to him, he steadfastly refused to vacate the foredeck... Each passing minute was only further confirmation this guy was a fool, one that looked like he needed to be passed as quickly as possible...

Attempting to pass him at 9.5 knots would have entailed far greater risk, _FOR BOTH OF US_, than would doing so @ 20+ knots...

Here's a pic of the Neptunus 56:










Here's the wake she throws @ 27 knots -










Not insignificant, of course, but considerably flatter than if that boat is running in the hole, in shallow water, at 9.5 knots... Equally important, the wake trails well astern...

Here's what would have happened if I'd tried to pass that guy at 9.5 knots... In the 8-10 feet of water nearer the side of the canal, my bow would have been pointed skyward, the boat would have been digging a huge hole in the water as the stern was sucked down towards the bottom... About $25K worth of 5 blade props would have been spinning perilously close to the bottom... My wake would have been gigantic, much sharper than pictured above... More importantly, my quarter wave would have moved WAY forward, the boat being passed would begin to be affected by it even as I was still alongside...

In a cut that narrow, with 2 50+ foot vessels running side by side at displacement speed, the significant amount of water being displaced will create a considerable "sucking away" of water from the canal's banks ahead, and serving to draw the 2 boats even closer together... Only a complete and utter fool would trust any autopilot to keep a boat as heavy and slow to respond precisely on track in such a situation, and for the length of time it would have taken me to get by, traveling only 2 knots faster...

Trust me, I am painfully aware that I am responsible for my own wake  Running a boat like that Neptunus inside all the way to Lauderdale will involve slowing down hundreds of times, the reason I always run outside as much as possible, of course... But, I'm sorry, I am NOT responsible for the boneheadedness of someone who steadfastly refuses to do their share in effecting a safe and courteous pass, or his inability to handle a wake that I can easily handle in my own little tub, by simply taking control of the helm 

In the end, the fact that the guy actually waved to me as I went by indicates that he was not surprised by the fact that I passed him on a plane... He waved me on, after all, in the fashion ICW sailors do when they don't feel the need for a slow pass. He simply underestimated the size of that Neptunus, and how poorly his own boat would handle its wake in a spot with so little margin for error, especially when being steered by a freakin' autopilot remote from a lawn chair on the foredeck


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

quote:
_My idea of a perfect pass is to first signal my intention to the slower vessel with a horn signal (one short blast if passing to starboard; two short blasts if to port). _
end quote

From colregs inland
c) When in sight of one another in a narrow channel or fairway:
(i) a vessel intending to overtake another shall in compliance with Rule 9(e)(i) indicate her intention by the following signals on her whistle:
− two prolonged blasts followed by one short blast to mean "I intend to overtake you on your starboard side";
− two prolonged blasts followed by two short blasts to mean "I intend to overtake you on your port side".
(ii) the vessel about to be overtaken when acting in accordance with Rule 9(e)(i) shall indicate her agreement by the following signal on her whistle:
− one prolonged, one short, one prolonged and one short blast, in that order.

What do most folks in the ditch do?


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Alex W said:


> Interesting. The current version of Raycontrol on my e7d prevents it from being able to change course or direct the autopilot (you get an error whenever the autopilot dialog would pop up). What version are you using?


That will teach me to try it before I brag about it. I've not used it, just believed the hype.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

davidpm said:


> quote:
> _My idea of a perfect pass is to first signal my intention to the slower vessel with a horn signal (one short blast if passing to starboard; two short blasts if to port). _
> end quote
> 
> ...


For the record, the description of the horn signals into my text about overtaking is not mine, but was inserted by Jeremy McGeary at CRUISING WORLD, who edited the piece... I generally use simply one or two "longish" blasts, it often depends upon the horn being used... The horns on many boats don't seem to be up to repeated, prolonged usage, and the mechanical air horns on many larger boats can take an unbelievably long time to recycle, the compressor often running for a minute or more after usage...

It is extremely rare for the slower vessel to acknowledge a horn signal in kind, most folks will simply wave, or begin to slow down/move over in response...

Many people communicate with VHF, but in my view that is generally unnecessary, and often results in a proliferation of needless chatter on 16... And, with all the talking on VHF, I feel horn signals are often far more effective in "waking up" many skippers on slower boats, many of whom never see me coming... Never ceases to amaze, how rarely so many folks on slower boats seem to steal a glance behind them - especially considering doing so habitually is often the best guard against straying from the channel and going aground thru so many stretches of the ICW...

Using a VHF when running a fast boat can be problematic in these overtaking situations for a couple of reasons... First, the names on the transoms of most sailboats are generally very difficult to read from a distance, and are becoming more so each year with the proliferation of dinghies on davits. Chances are, by the time radio contact is established, I'm already on top of the guy... More importantly, running a fast boat in a narrow channel, my hands are already full, I don't have a 3rd hand to be activating a radio mike... Bringing a large yacht from a plane down to idle speed in a narrow channel bordered by shallow water in close proximity to another boat is often no simple trick. One hand for the throttles, the other for the wheel which will usually require a major correction as the boat suddenly settles into full displacement mode, and veers dramatically away from the edge of the channel in an effort to seek deeper water... Tough to manage all that, and be talking on the radio as well - especially when a horn signal can so easily convey one's intentions. Obviously, exceptions can often apply, and sometimes a radio call is definitely warranted...

None of this is rocket science, most ICW rookies come to quickly understand the drill pretty quickly... But it all hinges on the slower boat's willingness to cut their speed, and if they refuse to do so, well, then they're just gonna create problems for themselves...


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> For the record, the description of the horn signals into my text about overtaking is not mine, but was inserted by Jeremy McGeary at CRUISING WORLD, who edited the piece... I generally use simply one or two "longish" blasts, it often depends upon the horn being used... The horns on many boats don't seem to be up to repeated, prolonged usage, and the mechanical air horns on many larger boats can take an unbelievably long time to recycle, the compressor often running for a minute or more after usage...
> 
> It is extremely rare for the slower vessel to acknowledge a horn signal in kind, most folks will simply wave, or begin to slow down/move over in response...
> 
> ...


Wow... So many inland waterways rules ignored or broken in this and your previous posts.

And you truly think your actions are humorous?

Seriously, go take a refresher course.

Sent from my Nexus 4


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

cupper3 said:


> Wow... So many inland waterways rules ignored or broken in this and your previous posts.
> 
> And you truly think your actions are humorous?
> 
> Seriously, go take a refresher course.


Nah, I don't see my own actions in this event as being particularly "humorous"...

But, the end result of those of some idiot determined to run his Formosa 51 thru the Alligator-Pungo Canal at hull speed using an AP remote from a lawn chair on his foredeck certainly was...

Perhaps you had to be there


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## cupper3 (Jun 30, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Nah, I don't see my own actions in this event as being particularly "humorous"...
> 
> But, the end result of those of some idiot determined to run his Formosa 51 thru the Alligator-Pungo Canal at hull speed using an AP remote from a lawn chair on his foredeck certainly was...
> 
> Perhaps you had to be there


He was not breaking any rules.... You were. Go take the refresher course.

Sent from my Nexus 4


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Perhaps you had to be there


Probably so. I appreciate your explanation of the overtaking issues and the specifics of the area. I haven't been there. For the record my 9.5knot overtaking suggestion was a quick and conservative calculation of your hull speed based on length. What I intended to suggest was passing him at hull speed where you wouldn't make much wake. I'm not familiar with "sucking issues" of confined waters, so again maybe I just had to be there.

I still do take issue with your attitude towards him going aground. I know you don't like that he was more casual than you, but it sounds like half of the people you pass aren't cooperative. It sounds like it was the lawn chair that got your goat. The story sounds a little like you cut off a car hogging the fast lane and caused him to crash and are reveling in it. It's still a car crash.

Even though I wasn't there, I bet you "could" have passed him in some other manner without causing as much distress as you did. On the other hand, maybe I'm just sensitive because it was a Formosa you were messing with.... 

MedSailor


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

cupper3 said:


> He was not breaking any rules.... You were. Go take the refresher course.


Oh, really? Hmmm, perhaps you could use a refresher course, as well 



> In general, any vessel equipped with a VHF marine radiotelephone (whether voluntarily or required to) must maintain a watch on channel 16 (156.800 MHz) whenever the radiotelephone is not being used to communicate.


Then, there is his failure to acknowledge my horn signal in kind:



> (i) In a narrow channel or fairway when overtaking, the power-driven vessel intending to overtake another power-driven vessel shall indicate her intention by sounding the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c) and take steps to permit safe passing. The power-driven vessel being overtaken, if in agreement, shall sound the same signal and may, if specifically agreed to take steps to permit safe passing. If in doubt, she shall sound the danger signal prescribed in Rule 34(d).


Then, there is the matter of "Good Seamanship", and the argument that could be made that this vessel was being operated in a manner dangerously close to being Not Under Command, and the fact her skipper made _no effort whatsoever_ to adhere to the spirit and intent of Rule 8:



> Rule 8 - Action to Avoid Collision
> 
> (a) Any action shall [be taken in accordance with the Rules of this Part and], if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship.


Look, I'm sure some who've read this find my account barely credible... Hell, even after all these years, I still find it hard to believe I came across someone so willing to demonstrate such obstinate stupidity throughout what should be a simple procedure, one that I've repeated thousands of times with other boats... Running that stretch of the ditch on AP is risky enough, though I do it myself all the time with a slow boat... Doing so from the foredeck ratchets up the risk to an unacceptable degree, however. And doing so, when being overtaken by another yacht, well - that's simply off the charts in terms of poor seamanship...

So, in the face of this clown's obstinate refusal to take proper control of his own vessel, and his repeated _waving me on_ to overtake him (I know that wave, have seen it hundreds of times over the years, it says 'Come on by, no need to slow for me, I'll be fine...'), I resorted to passing him as expeditiously as possible, given the circumstances... In a manner that placed our respective boats side by side and at risk of collision _for the least amount of time possible_, and the one that _resulted in throwing him LESS wake_ - and a wake that should have been far easier for him to manage - than he would have received if I'd passed him slowly, given his refusal to slow from the 8 knots he was making...

And, in this particular case, I think it could be argued that Rule 2 grants me the authority to have made that sort of judgment call:



> Rule 2 - Responsibility
> 
> (b) In construing and complying with these Rules *due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances*, including the limitations of the vessels involved, *which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.*


But then again, I suppose I'm just a habitual 'Rule Breaker'... As one who often sails singlehanded, I'm obviously in routine violation of Rule 5 whenever I sail pretty much anywhere in my own little tub...


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Jon you said

_When a powerboat operator has neither the inclination toward courtesy nor the skill to demonstrate it, you can minimize the effect of a rogue wake by turning away from the wake and throwing a hip check with your own boat's quarter by beginning to cut sharply across the wake, then deliberately putting the boat broadside at just the right moment. In most boats of at least moderate displacement, this results in little more than the overtaken boat bobbing up and down, with a minimum degree of rolling. _

This is interesting.

So the way I read this is that if someone passes me from astern at high speed throwing a big wake on my port I should steer starboard until the wake hits my quarter then steer port.

Is that right?

If so what if someone passes me at high speed on my port side but from ahead throwing a big wake?
In this case it is the opposite yes?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Jon I'm not going to argue with you about this for the very good reason that you have thousands of more hours at the helm than I and are a professional. And frankly it doesn't concern me personally, I hope. IOW I suspect is is unlikely you will ever encounter me on the water acting clownish and you feel it necessary to blow me off the road.

You have your mind made up about this situation and you don't seem to be in a mood to change.
Personally your experience and posting are more valuable to me than being right or wrong on this one incident.

For the rest of us what an education. 

Here you have one of our own. A known good guy and fellow sailor. His attitude is that if someone is in his way and acting "clownish" he has the right to blow him off the road at 25 knots and finds it funny if they get grounded. I don't know how he would feel if the guy holed his boat on one of those stumps or got seriously hurt but that was a risk he took with the other guys boat and life too.

Now this is the lesson I got.

Imagine what we look like to Tug captain or better yet to a chinese super container ship captain. This guy may never had even set foot on anything less that 1,000 tons. His boss is bitching that he has to get to the dock to unload and every hour he is late is costing thousands. 

I suspect that for some their only care about whether we will slow him down a minute or not and if someone sees him sink us it may cause some annoying paperwork.

Guys and gals you may be on your own out their more than you think. 
Any perceived un-seamanship behavior due to inexperience or a touch too much confidence may set someone off.
Not everyone cares about your well being and some people feel justified in teaching you a lesson.


Be careful out there.

I guess it is not too different from land.
Back in the 80's my wife and I rode out 10 speed bikes from West Haven, CT to South Carolina.
In order to get past NYC we had to get across a bridge. I believe it was the Gothels bridge. 
You couldn't ride you bike on the bridge but you could call for a transit worker to pick you up on one side and drive you across the bridge.
He let us off on the other side of the bridge. I would have liked for him to take us to an exit but he didn't.
So we in in 10 speeds with heavy saddle bags hugging the shoulder heading for the exit.
A semi came flying by us at speed about six inches from our handlebars blowing us off the road. 
Apparently he felt compelled to teach us a lesson about where we should and should not bike.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> ...Over 25 years ago, I learned a very valuable lesson from an incident that could have easily ended my budding career in the delivery trade. Namely, autopilots can wig out at any time, and appear to have a greater likelihood to do so in close proximity to other vessels, or large structures such as bridges...


It's the remote compass getting thrown off by the steel in bridge or other boat.

One time I was organizing a storage area where the magnetic sensor is mounted. The person at the helm yelled that the AP was going haywire. It turned out that I put some wrenches to close to the AP's remote compass.

Regards,
Brad


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## sailorboy15 (Jul 1, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> So, in the face of this clown's obstinate refusal to take proper control of his own vessel, and his repeated _waving me on_ to overtake him (I know that wave, have seen it hundreds of times over the years, it says 'Come on by, no need to slow for me, I'll be fine...'), I resorted to passing him as expeditiously as possible, given the circumstances...


Jon I am going to have to say that even if there could be an argument under the rules that you are partialy responsible(they way the rules are written no one is ever free of fault) in my mind you did nothing particuarly wrong. You demonstrated a much greater understanding of your vessel then the average powerboater by bringing it up on plane as you passed minimizing the effect of your wake. He also waved you on, in my mind he was taking responsibility for the reaction of is vessel to your wake. I think the reason that your story seems to have struck a bit of a nerve with some people is due to many of us sailors haveing powerboaters constantly blowing past us and haveing no regard for the effect of there wakes.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Bene505 said:


> > Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> > ...Over 25 years ago, I learned a very valuable lesson from an incident that could have easily ended my budding career in the delivery trade. Namely, autopilots can wig out at any time, and appear to have a greater likelihood to do so in close proximity to other vessels, or large structures such as bridges...
> 
> 
> It's the remote compass getting thrown off by the steel in bridge or other boat.


Amazing how many people don't appear to appreciate this. When I had my first 'Teachable Moment' with an AP and a passing yacht all those years ago, I was aware of that, of course... The eye-opening realization for me, was that such an effect might be felt at such a distance... The AP locking hard over at that particular moment MIGHT have been purely coincidental, of course - but if it was, that only reinforces the notion that an AP can go nuts at ANY moment...

But the faith many boaters put in the infallibility of these devices today is pretty spooky... I once saw a boat kiss the fender system at the North Landing Bridge, obviously going thru it on autopilot when he suddenly veered off course... Gee, I wonder what possibly could have caused THAT to happen? 










Well, better he learned his lesson at a placid spot like that, than when passing a towboat in one of the ICW's typical land cuts...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

davidpm said:


> Jon you said
> 
> _When a powerboat operator has neither the inclination toward courtesy nor the skill to demonstrate it, you can minimize the effect of a rogue wake by turning away from the wake and throwing a hip check with your own boat's quarter by beginning to cut sharply across the wake, then deliberately putting the boat broadside at just the right moment. In most boats of at least moderate displacement, this results in little more than the overtaken boat bobbing up and down, with a minimum degree of rolling. _
> 
> ...


No, if you are being passed to port from astern, you would turn to port to cut back across the wake... (this is assuming a wake thrown by a boat on a plane, it can be a bit different in dealing with a wake from a boat running at displacement speed, or even worse, a boat on a half-plane)

With the sort of flatter wake that Neptunus throws at 25 knots, you basically only have one 'wave' to deal with, a smaller secondary wave inside it, and you're done... The maneuver isn't easy for me to describe in words, but the suggestion of throwing a 'hip-check' is the best I can come up with...

You want to cut towards the first 'wave', but not too sharply... (The technique is actually quite similar to steering to weather in large seas offshore} As you begin to feel the effect of the wave, you want to turn a bit more sharply into it (in this case, to port) as you "climb' the wave...

Right as you 'crest' the wave, however, you want to make a sharp correction back to starboard as the wake passes beneath... If you're timed it right, your stern quarter will settle right into the secondary part of the wake, and counter the start of the boat's tendency to roll to port after 'falling' off the back side of the first wave...

This takes some practice, and of course the maneuver can vary considerably, depending upon the boat... But I can almost guarantee you, that in my heavy, but little 30-footer, I could have easily handled the wake of that Neptunus without my masthead rolling through an arc of more than 15 degrees...

All bets are off, however, were I to attempt to do so from my foredeck, using an autopilot remote


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

davidpm said:


> For the rest of us what an education.
> 
> Here you have one of our own. A known good guy and fellow sailor. His attitude is that if someone is in his way and acting "clownish" he has the right to blow him off the road at 25 knots and finds it funny if they get grounded. I don't know how he would feel if the guy holed his boat on one of those stumps or got seriously hurt but that was a risk he took with the other guys boat and life too.
> 
> Now this is the lesson I got.


OK, I'm gonna try this one more time...

My first inclination whenever I come upon a slower boat on the ICW or similar waterway, is to pass in as courteous and safe a fashion as possible. I'm a sailor, after all, and a bit of a rarity in the delivery business, as I run both sail and power. Most captains tend to do one or the other, but rarely both...

As soon as I began to realize I was dealing with a complete fool in this instance, however, my perspective changed... I'm no longer quite so concerned about minimizing the possibility of spilling the guy's morning coffee. Instead, my focus shifted to how I'm gonna get this $800K boat I'm responsible for past this moron who is determined to operate his own boat in such an unseamanlike fashion, with such an astonishing lack of appreciation for what could go wrong, in such close quarters...

He obliged me with more than a _HINT_... He waved me on, unmistakably, and repeatedly...

Now, please try to get it out of your head, that silly notion that "I blew him off the road at 25 knots..." Sorry, nothing could be further from the truth, and your apparent failure to grasp this betrays an ignorance of the simple physics involved...

Here's the shot again, of the wake that Neptunus throws at 26 knots... Please notice how it is comprised of basically a single wave, and how far aft it streams... Obviously, I would be well clear of the sailboat before he became affected by my wake, and he would have the full width of the waterway to deal with it... If he were smart, he would have dealt with it in the same fashion I described in my previous post, would have been a piece of cake with that boat...










Now, look at the difference in the character of the wake from this displacement hulled yacht, running near hull speed...










Notice how much further forward the wake begins, and how a vessel being overtaken in close quarters would begin to ride a quartering wave, and need to start taking corrective steering action, while still alongside the overtaking boat... Notice how much sharper the angle is of the trailing wake, and how much greater would have to be the angle of the 'cutback' required to make the maneuver I described earlier. And, notice how many more individual 'waves' are produced by such a yacht running at displacement speed...

you'll just have to take my word on this, but if I attempted to pass that guy at 9.5 knots, in the 8-10' depths I would have found towards the side of the canal, my wake would have been MASSIVE with the stern sucking the bottom, and my bow and quarter waves would have moved even further forward, streaming almost perpendicular from my hull...

Now, if this guy had only been insistent on maintaining his speed, _but was actually steering his boat at the helm_, I would have bit the bullet, and passed him at that half-assed speed... Once i've brought a boat down off a plane, I virtually never run back up to speed until the overtaking maneuver is completed... But in this situation, passing him at speed on a plane - _given his refusal to either slow down, or assume proper control of his own vessel_ - was the best way to go... Anyone who can't understand that, well... I give up 

Of course, much of the amusement I receive from the telling of this tale is a result of the intervening years that have passed... In truth, I was shocked by how poorly a sailor even as clueless as he - not to mention his autopilot - handled the wake... When I saw he had gone aground, I slowed once again, standing by to assess the situation... Fortunately, he was able to back that beast back off the bank almost immediately, and was underway again in short order... Tellingly, he never even attempted to call me on VHF, perhaps it finally dawned upon him how foolish his actions had been..



davidpm said:


> Guys and gals you may be on your own out their more than you think.
> Any perceived un-seamanship behavior due to inexperience or a touch too much confidence may set someone off.
> Not everyone cares about your well being and some people feel justified in teaching you a lesson.
> 
> ...


Oh, c'mon... No need to go Full Drama Queen on us 

It was not my intent to "teach a lesson" to this clown, though hopefully he did learn one as a result... I simply wanted to get past him with as minimal an exposure to risk as possible...

Over the years, I think I've rendered more than my fair share of assistance to other sailors I've encountered... Here's one example I recounted in another thread recently, I didn't notice anyone else joining in to help me this night:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1076967-post15.html

And sorry, but your bike story doesn't impress me much... 

I've done a couple of tours over the years, each in excess of a couple of thousand miles... One through Nova Scotia and out across Newfoundland, and another from Seattle, up Vancouver Island, a ferry ride up to Prince Rupert, back down to Vancouver, out around the Olympic Peninsula, then down the coast to San Francisco... Trust me, I had more than a few close calls with logging trucks on that one 

Sure, I've no doubt some welcomed the chance to show me who was The Boss of the roads... But I doubt any of them who might have been cyclists themselves, were among those who did so...


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Thanks for the more complete explanation Jon.

It happened a long time ago and no one got hurt. The real lesson that both of your stories clearly explained is that you can't trust auto-helm in close situations.
Nice pictures too.

Back to the regularly scheduled education channel.
Would you comment more on the following?
Jon you said

_When a powerboat operator has neither the inclination toward courtesy nor the skill to demonstrate it, you can minimize the effect of a rogue wake by turning away from the wake and throwing a hip check with your own boat's quarter by beginning to cut sharply across the wake, then deliberately putting the boat broadside at just the right moment. In most boats of at least moderate displacement, this results in little more than the overtaken boat bobbing up and down, with a minimum degree of rolling. 
_

This is interesting.

So the way I read this is that if someone passes me from astern at high speed throwing a big wake on my port I should steer starboard until the wake hits my quarter then steer port.

Is that right?

If so what if someone passes me at high speed on my port side but from ahead throwing a big wake?
In this case it is the opposite yes?
Steer port into the wake then starboard.


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