# So, is a weapon advisable or not?



## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

I am sure this topic is hotly debated amongst cruisers, but in light of Peter Blake''s recent murder, I''ll throw this out. Is having one or more weapons aboard advisable when cruising? 

If I could guarantee that all I would lose is some material wealth, I would say no. But I wonder about that scenario where the attackers are not intending to leave live witnesses to their crime.

Some concerns I see:

1. If you really need it and don''t have it, you could be in big trouble.

2. If you have a weapon, you had better be skilled in its care and use.

3. If you pull it out during an incident, you had better be prepared to use it.

4. Some places probably make it illegal to possess, so you either can''t go there, give up the weapon, or hide it and risk who knows what punishment if authorities find it.

5. As in Blake''s case, there might be more armed attackers than you could ever hope to handle, so if you bring out a weapon you might just be guaranteeing death or injury for your crew. 

I await the many opinions. TIA.

Duane


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## VIEXILE (Jan 10, 2001)

The biggest risk is in the illegality of the weapon and the requirement of surrender upon entering a jurisdiction''s waters. At that point, if you stay legal, you ain''t got nothin''. Here in the Virgin Islands they''re trying to pass another gun bill that would make possession of an unlicensed weapon subject to some ungodly fine in the $50K range and something like a min. 10 years. They won''t swallow the notion that if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Unfortunately, all the gun incidents down here are locals on locals for generally minor disputes, robberies, etc. Lots of people have illegal weapons - but many of them will never be bothered because they are either related to or worked for someone with the police or government. I think a couple three flare guns, spear guns (all of which must be surrendered in many ports), etc. might be a good idea. Bruce Van Sant speaks in his book of having a 9 mil on board. I''ve got a feeling that was long ago and far away. Personally, a pair of 3"mag Mossberg Mariners would be my selection. Wish I had one when the damn hammerhead ate our big wahoo sunday......


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## BigRed56 (May 27, 2001)

Ahoy, DuaneIsing, As a confirmed firearms person I have the same question on my mind . I know I''am legal in US waters and so long as I declare and surrender all weapons at the time of entry (I understand some even count ammo) in foreign ports I''d like to think I''d be alright? Of course my simplest advise in Mr. Blake''s case is a man has got to know his limitations. Pick up a gun and you have to really believe and understand that your life is the coin that is tossed up in the air. No property is worth the price. Big Red 56


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## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

Thanks to all for the responses so far.

Even though I designed small and medium caliber cannon for the US DoD for 8 years, I have never yet owned a gun; I know that seems strange. I am a firm believer, however, in our right (in the U.S.A.) to own one. VIEXILE has it right when he says, "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

The point about surrendering weapons upon arrival is troubling to me. I think I''m much more likely to need a defensive weapon at anchor somewhere than out at sea. I still have time to decide what I want to do (cruising is 3+ years off). I do know that my wife insists on an intruder alarm system.

As BigRed56 says, once you pick up that gun you''re gambling with your life (and maybe that of your crew, too.). I seem to be rambling now, but the thought that just popped into my head is the recent hijakings on 9-11. The conventional wisdom used to be: remain passive and all will be OK. I wonder how many people have had a final second of consciousness to regret not providing for their own protection.

I''m pretty sure there will be more posts on this. I look forward to your opinions.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

My personal choice is not to carry a firearm. As a military member, I am weapons trained and prepared to enter a firefight. That said, being in a firefight would be your worst nightmare and being in a fiberglass boat offers NO cover. 

There are many legal reasons not to have a firearm and statistically you are much more likely to have it used against you (by someone you know) or use it to kill an innocent person. 

In the situation where you are confronted with an armed group, as Peter Blake was, making an agressive move might get you killed whereas you would have just been robbed. 

In a firefight, I would want an assault rifle, sidearm, body armor and some cover (not to mention air power, C3I and SOF backup :O). To enter a firefight otherwise is just rolling the dice as the gentleman mentioned. Do you feel lucky?

For me, personally, I see too many reasons not to. I am not likely to win against a group of armed intruders and if I need to protect myself against one or two amateurs.. well... I am sure I can think of something ;o)


Just my $0.02

Respectfully


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## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

So far we have some valid, logical arguments on both sides (I received some private email reponses too, mostly on the pro "armed" side).

I guess if fates allow, you could find yourself seriously regretting either choice. As John drake says, he sees too many reasons not to. It is apparent that there is no clear answer.


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## oer (Nov 22, 2001)

For any sailors interested in the subject of ''modern piracy'', there''s a weekly report on the subject on the Internet. The address is: www.iccwbo.org/ccs/imb_piracy/weekly_piracy_report.asp

Some of these guys take off when the crew shows signs of resistance. It''s probably based on the theory that if you''re too much trouble, they can find easier pickings. Some vessels which ''disappear'' are no doubt also unreported victims. 

OER


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## VIEXILE (Jan 10, 2001)

My personal preference of having a scoped rifle, shotgun and auto pistol on board notwithstanding, the idea of a LOUD alarm system with a panic button appeals initially. Trouble is, are you going to piss your visitors off?


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## VIEXILE (Jan 10, 2001)

Virgin Islands senate just passed the new "Gun" bill. An unlicensed firearm arrest will cost you $50,000.00 mandatory AND a MINIMUM jail sentence of 25 years. Naturally, as with all Virgin Islands Laws, it will be applied selectively to those not politically or financially connected, but hey, that''s the islands, mon. And by the way, to respond to an earlier post, these ARE U.S. waters, as is Puerto Rico. I''ll bet w/in 12 miles of Massachusetts you could get in a world of hurt with an un (Mass) licensed firearm on board if the authorities wanted to step on you.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I agree with John Drake that coming to armed confrontation would be the worst possible scenario. However, where my wife and children are involved there is no question in my mind. On land I choose to carry a licensed revolver. This means ultimately that I am committed to taking another person''s life if it comes down to my family''s safety. Very hard decision and I hope I never have to put it to the test. When I am by myself I don''t carry. 
A radio news report about a year ago stated that about 80% of the time that a victim produced a gun, their attackers fled. This certainly was not the case with Blake.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Excellent point, and that is what makes the decision a difficult one. 

In truly wild places in Africa and South America, a hunting rifle with scope is certainly needed. And there is no question that is some percentage of circumstances, just producing a weapon will save you from being attacked. It is hard to say though what would have happened in those circumstances if the intended victim had done something other than produce a gun. You can scare potential attackers away by doing a myriad of things. 

I am still not sure the statistics are on the side of keeping a gun, which is why it is a very personal choice. You have to judge for yourself what you believe your most likely circumstances are going to be and how you might protect and defend yourself by other means (radio call for help, speargun, flares, machete, etc). Without question, it has saved many people. Still, you are more likely to have it used against you, more likely to kill someone by accident and much more likely to kill an innocent person by mistake (remember the guy who killed a kid who came to the door either selling something or on halloween or something like that). On the water, at night, it is easy to get spooked. Also easy for someone to attack you. 

There is no question that you do whatever it takes to protect your family. I personally find it disconcerting how many people out there are ''prepared'' to take a life and carry the means to do so instantly. Any god honest person can be brought to the point at which they become enraged and with a lethal weapon, can kill you for whatever justification they believe in the heat of the moment. I look around myself and think that maybe strict gun laws are not such a bad thing. 

I am not sermonizing, really just thinking outloud and value the conversation. 

Respectfully,


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## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

We agree it is a tough personal choice with potentially deadly consequences whichever way you decide. Let''s say you decide YES:

The statistical probablility that your weapon will be ill-used (e.g. against yourself) has been cited often and I don''t doubt it. 

My initial thoughts were that if you had weapons aboard, you would most likely want one in your master stateroom (and possibly just inside the companionway) BUT they would be well-disguised and locked. That is to say, you and your mate have the secret knowledge for gaining quick access, but the casual observer would never suspect that the weapon is hidden there. I bet that will be tough to do, but I already have some ideas.

Returning to the idea of an intruder alarm, I was thinking of a perimeter alarm activated by force levels greater than that of birds, activating both an alarm in the master stateroom and perhaps turning on flood lights above deck. The alarm would be activated by the crew upon retiring at night and whenever you go ashore. Any thoughts?

I appreciate this dialog, too, and hope we all gain a little something from it.

Duane


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think the idea of an alarm for sailboats is an excellent idea!


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## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

Not wishing to sound selfish, but if any of us comes up with a clever alarm system, we probably need to keep it quiet. Once the method of operation became known, it would be pretty easy to defeat it, I would guess.

Duane


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

radio 18,
i do not believe that when you decide to use deadly force that your attacker should "flee" he should be dead. a weapon is not used to scare someone off but to kill them. you really have to decide that when you are attacked you will immediately use your weapon.
If you can''t do that don''t have a weapon.
eric


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

kimberlite, you bring up a valid point, one that I have wrestled with. I believe it unwise, however, to immediately use a firearm. That should be a last resort. I realize that each situation could be different and that in some the issue may be forced much sooner by an attacker. These are just some opinions on a subject which I frankly have not totallty come to grips with.

As for an alarm, I am reminded of what Slocum wrote in "Sailing Alone Around The World", how he scattered carpet tacks on the deck while anchored in the Strait of Magellan. It would be nice if things were still as simple as that now.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

i don''t think slocum had to deal with an 
ak-47. (available for less than $200. new and $75 used)

i believe you mis understood my reply.
my comment was to mean; that if you have a gun you must be prepared to use it.
if you are not, don''t own one.

secondly, 
a gun should not be used to scare someone off.
if there comes a time that you must unholster, or show your weapon it is now time to use it.

having been in 3 armed robberies, having a fully automatic uzi stuck in my face by a man who had killed 2 cops and a civilian in three separate incidents, and having my father and uncle killed in two separate robberies i have some strong opinions on the subject.

if you own a gun and are not prepared to use it i believe you might at best have it stuck in your face.

i go to work each day armed. i own many long guns and assault weapons and a few dozen hand guns. however i do not sail with one. even when heading to the caribbeani don''t i think the chances of being boarded by pirates is very slim.
eric


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

last line should read:

that i believe the chances of being boarded by pirates IS slim.
sorry
eric


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## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

Today''s SailNet article by Liza Copeland is very informative reading on this subject. Hope the link info below comes thru OK.

Duane

http://www.sailnet.com/collections/cruising/index.cfm?articleid=copela0025&tfr=fp


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I read Liza Copeland''s article this morning and sent a suggestion to sailnet on the matter. I did not find ANY new thought on the matter, but rather the same old biased and tired commentary by another Canadian. Americans, particularly males, are much more receptive to carrying guns onboard. It''s reflective of our culture. I own several guns, three to be exact, but I do not carry them on board because I am a coastal cruiser not becuase theyare illegal. I will probably carry one when I sail the Carribean - which will be soon I am hope. And I will follow the laws of the nations I visit. In closing, I doubt seriously if there have ever been any comprehensive and unbiased studies on the matter as far as sailing goes. I certainly have seen zero. This particular string of commentary has been the most civil I have seen on the matter, and the contributors should be congratulated. But remember, there are many subjects less controverial which we could be discussing. Such as the repair of dripping stuffing boxes while one stands on their head in a cramped engine compartment, or the replacement of a 20 year old head and the associated hoses. fair winds
jerry


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

The only statistic Ive seen on the subject was, I believe, in Sensible Cruising, and said that 1 out of 5 European cruising boats had a shotgun or hunting rifle on board, and 4 out of 5 American boats had a handgun...

My best friend, who has been a liveaboard for about 2 years now, is very anti-gun, and he and I have had long debates on this as Im preparing to move on to my own soon-to-be refitted vessel. While Im not an expert on the subject, Im ex-Army infantry and a former private investigator, and have had a license to carry in several states over the past 12 years.

He and I cruised together in a pair of 22''s for about 4 months on the ICW, and I carried a revolver aboard; he was unarmed except for a flare gun... I never had to take it out of the locker (for which I am very glad) but it made me feel more secure, knowing that I had it. If you do carry aboard, then you have the option whether or not to use it in a situation (assuming you can get to it in time)... whereas if you dont have a weapon aboard...

My biggest concern is it *is* a huge responsibility, the ability to take someone''s life - whether you draw it hoping to scare someone off, you''d *better* be prepared to kill, because some people are crazy or desperate enough to call your bluff.

So, if you:
are trained in its use
are aware of the laws regarding weapons in the areas you cruise
have a secure locker in which to store it
feel you could use it effectively when needed
feel you tell when a situation justifies deadly force, and more importantly, when it *doesnt*
feel safer cruising with it than without

then carry a firearm aboard... if not, to any of the above, then dont. Its far more dangerous to have a weapon you arent comfortable with, trained in, or prepared to use safely and justfiably, than to not have one.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

My personal views could be considered anti-handgun. But I am not completely anti-gun. The murder rates are much lower in countries with hand gun laws.

With this in mind I would say that if you where to carry anything on board it should be a shotgun. It''s almost impossible for a small child to lift one and hurt him/herself or someone else. (And I don''t subscribe to the lock theory being fool proof. Too many children are killed by locked and unloaded guns every year) They are big and scary and make alot of noise. Even if you miss, which is less likely, you will scare the hell out of someone.

I realise the object is to stop them dead, but if you make them run in the process thats ok to!

No one has mentioned a panic button with a very loud alarm. I would not work if you are under sail, but in an anchorage with people nearby it might scare away attackers
Pepper spray is a good tool also. I''ve seen this stuff work and it''s very impressive.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Beyond the thoughts of loud horns to announce unwanted visitors..... one thing that I have thought about is given all the "metal" on sailboats that is "conductive"...what about one of those cute little electric fence boxes with the leads hooked to bare wires mounted along the lifelines and such. I''ve been thinking about how to rig it, and I have some ideas, like using stainless rigging wire....

I rather think that someone grabbing the hot lifelines or other hot parts of a boat might really change their mind....especially if they are already wet. 

Actually rigging an intrusion device is simpler than it appears......there are devices around that can read the change in resistance and trip an alarm......


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## SHIMSHON (Jan 30, 2001)

Several years ago while alongside at one of the marinas in downtown Newport Rhode Island I was woken by my wife telling me someone was on our boat. It was 0230 and I was now on full alert and could hear noise in the cockpit. I grabbed my 12 gauge pump which I kept in the master stateroom and it was loaded with alternating rounds of 00buck and slugs. I am very comfortable with weapons having been military trained as well as a hunter most of my life and was prepared to use it. Not only was my family on board but we also had as guests several children of friends. As i approached the main cabin, the main hatch began to slide forward and a head stuck itself in and this person began 
to remove the vent boards. With that I announced myself and stuck the barrel of the gun in this person''s face and came pretty close to pulling the trigger. I backed the intruder back into the cockpit at which time he proceeded to empty his bladder in his pants and started to cry. He was a college kid who had had too much to drink and was looking for a place that he could bed the young lady who was now standing on the dock in absolute horror. What a close call!! I admonished the young man for doing what he did and after he left I sat down and began to realize how close I had come to taking a life. After that incident I have never carried a gun aboard. I do think it is a matter of choice and each person has to decide for themself what they feel most comfortable with.


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## rogerleslie (Apr 15, 2001)

I feel that I have found a simple solution.
I keep a 22 pistol with the first chamber empty, the next chamber is loaded with buck- shot (easy to find in 22 caliber) and the remaining chambers with hollow points. 

The buck-shot should convince the intruder, but if it does not, there is no alternative if my family is threatened.


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## VIEXILE (Jan 10, 2001)

.22 cal buckshot? Don''t you mean rat shot or birdshot? I doubt I''ll ever be carrying a gun onboard just to avoid the potential problems. I wouldn''t mind having one, but it won''t do you any good in the Caribbean, since you''ll have to turn it in at every stop, and will cause more immigration problems than you can imagine. Puerto Rico requires, as I recall, that a licensed PUERTO RICAN must be on board if you have any guns onboard. Otherwise, deep ****...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I would like to add my two cents on the guns on board question. If I ask how many people have ever actually had to use a gun to save their lives, more that 999 out of a thousand would say they have not. The obvious exclusions apply: law enforcement and war. That we are all here indicates that we haven''t lost our lives to guns. I got my first single shot 22 when I was 8 years old. I was born and reared in west Texas. I owned and used guns into my thirties- I''m 58 - and then gave up hunting and have never owned a gun since. I lived in Peru, Trinidad and Tobago, Scotland, Norway, Libya, Hong Kong, and Singapore over 15 years. I worked in 22 countries, traveled in over thirty. I lived in Libya when they had the border fight with Egypt. I''ve been deep in the Amazon. I''ve walked the streets in Bogata, Columbia at night. And this was in the seventies. I have never in my life needed a gun for anything. If you think being burgled or robbed is a problem in a foreign country, try shooting one of their citizens, American, any citizen, for any reason. Get caught with a gun in almost any foreign country and see what happens. Next, the other guy knows what he is about to do and you don''t. He will always have the drop on you. Target practice doesn''t teach you combat shooting under pressure with adrenalin flowing like wine. I''ve seen DPS officers (I owned a security guard agency once) and the perpetrator both empty their weapons at 8 to 10 feet from each other and neither get hit. Every expert I have read in all the sailing magazines in articles about guns on board says no. Stay away from pirate waters unless in company. Stay on the beaten path. Go ashore with someone. Have your boat watched, alarmed, or have a dog. But forget about guns. Finally, review the story of the gentleman who almost killed a high school kid who was looking for a place to neck with his girl. Just dwell on that. Can you imagine if you did that. Carry that for the rest of your life. I know someone who did. "I thought it was a burgler," hasn''t helped him one iota. He carries it like cancer. dhd


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

A shotgun is probably the best defensive weapon for a boat as it is the home. Tremendous knockdown power without the risk of sending a bullet to your neighbor''s abode. Further, the shot spread means you do not have to place a perfect shot. There is a chrome version with plastic stock available at most sports stores for a reasonable price - the manufacturers escapes me at the moment, but it is probably Mossberg. It should withstand the ravages of a saltwater environment mush betterthan others.
I have always found it interesting that great and free countries such as Switzerland and the USA permit guns to be owned by their citizens. It''s most difficult for oppressive governments to arise when the people are armed.
As to shooting a burglar in my home - no way will it make me sleep poorly afterwards. I''d probably sleep better knowing I had fended off a criminal and could do the job again.
If one feels comfortable carrying and using a firearm, the carry one. If not, don''t.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think youre referring to the Mossberg 500 Marine... a very light pistol-grip 12g... last time I priced one (about ''96) they were about $300


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## VIEXILE (Jan 10, 2001)

All my guns remain locked up in Maine, waiting for me to return for bird and deer hunting. They''ll stay there. Ain''t worth the trouble. Had guns since I was 9 years old, but never got excited about handguns. My grandfather gave me a 10 Gauge, six-shot Winchester lever-action shotgun (model 1910) about 25 years ago. Same gun as Schwarzenegger was swinging on the Harley in Terminator 2, except they''d sawed that one off. I literally wouldn''t want to see what my handloads would do to a "pirate." Still, I think it''s safer to cruise tough places in twos and threes and have alternatives available. Skip the gun thing. It won''t be there when you need it.


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## davidNwillems (Oct 27, 2000)

I would recommend a shotgun ( I would NEVER try to bring a pistol across an international border, if you were with the border patrol for your country who would you be happier about , a pistol toter trying to get in or someone with what I''m about to recommend). The probable way to see to it that local officials wouldn''t find it too threatening is to get the double barrelled or even one-shot type (vs. a pump). These also have the advantage of dissasembly, any I have ever seen come apart into 2 much shorter pieces if you take off the forestock (very easy to do, 1 screw at most) before opening it as if to reload. The single shot types, usually refered to as a training or youth shotgun, can be bought rediculously cheap (under $100) used at most any place (in the USA mainland) that sells used guns (less $$ouch in a confiscation). A gizmo called an ammo sock ($15) that fits over the stock will hold 5 rounds near where they are needed (get the tight type that say caliber 12/16 for 12ga). I recommend 12ga magnum (meaning 3") as a minimum. Lots of different grades of ammo in this caliber including 1oz slugs (solid shot, not pellets, a huge bullet) for shooting at a pirates waterline. One other thing is go ahead and get a license for it(meaning from a weird area that requires one), make zillions of photocopies, and keep the original with the gun unless the customs guys insist on sighting the original, otherwise just give them a photocopy.
Shotguns are more usefull in a survival situation (if you remember to bring enough bird hunting ammo) than any other gun type. In a saltwater enviroment the gun is going to rust even if you don''t use it so oil it (especially the action and firing pin) like you are going mad about oiling. Also a kevlar vest will help as some have recommended as long as the enemy isn''t firing big-game ammo, so maybe it doesn''t even have to be very thick.
My point with this is you don''t have to arm like a pirate to fend them off, so you don''t have to look like one.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I believe the "Blake" referred to is the fellow who was attacked in Mexico/sea of cortez. If so, his story is suspected of being fraudulent.
If this is not the same, I stand corrected. But having cruised in that area, I would be shocked at the validity of the story and many are now piecing together inconsistencies. The issue of weapon-in any case- may or may not have been relevant. One has to keep it hidden in most places, and unlikely one would have gotten it out for "freindly visit by fisherman wishing to trade"


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