# C&C 35 mk1 1972 vs C&C 33 mk2 1986



## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

I don't know if I did anything wrong but could not find a post compare the two.

My admiral fell in love with a C&C 35 mk1 1972. I am thinking that might be too old of a boat, I know it is built strong though. On the other hand, the 1986 C&C 33 mk2 is in similar size, 14 years newer, but with cored hull. Two boats are in the same ballpark price.

I'd like to hear from experienced sailor to chime in and provide some experience.

Thank you in advance!


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## Sanduskysailor (Aug 1, 2008)

It all depends. If the 35-1 has been restored it might be the better buy. It is faster than the 33-2, solid glass hull, is a more tested boat. The downside to the 35-1 is the Atomic 4 which is pretty anemic for the 35. Deck rigging, if not changed, has a winch farm at the base of the mast instead of lines being led aft. The standing rigging is probably getting tired along with the sailtec hydraulic backstay adjuster.

The 33-2 is a newer design with more efficient foils. The boat will go upwind better than the 35. The interior is a bit nicer on the 33-2 with teak and holly sole. Interior is close to the 35 in size. the 33-2 has a 2gm20 Yanmar which is very reliable. Make sure surveyor diligently checks cored hull. Also the forward section of the bilge sump is susceptible to damage if grounded. Port lights in main cabin can leak if not properly fixed. Rigging is rod if I'm not mistaken and all halyards are led back as standard equipment.

Price being equal, the 33-2 is the better choice if it is in good condition. Lower maintenance costs for the 33-2


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## FreeAgent (Apr 19, 2017)

I would rule out the C&C35 Mk1 if it still has a gas engine. And especially if it has a 72 vintage Atomic 4. Think about buying a car. What would be a better buy? A 72 model with a gas engine or an 86 model with a diesel? 

If you are cruising, the C&C35 doesn't have the kind of interior that more modern boats do. Many of them were raced in their earlier days and are tired. Decks are cored and more likely to be a problem that cored hulls. Besides some of the other problems, things like the ports were never good to start with and at this stage need to be replaced or repaired in a manner better than the original design. 

The 35 is a reasonably well behaved boat, but not all that fast. It does suffer from an undersized and old fashioned rudder than can be a bear when running downwind.

Other than boats themselves, consider age, condition and type of sails and furling gear (if any). Also electronics that probably need replacing and can be costly. If cruising, consider presence or not of dodger & bimini which you may need.

I am surprised that both boats would be about same price. I could imagine an asking price for a 33 mk2 would be 50-150% higher than an early C&C35 if both were in equivalent condition.


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

Thank you Sanduskysailor and FreeAgent.

I've been researching about the 33. Some say it is only cored above waterline, some say it is only cored at the bow, do you know what in fact is? I went to the cncphotoalbum site but could not confirm the information. 

I also saw user talking about collapsed mast step, I am wondering if this is a wide spread issue or isolated issue.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

FreeAgent said:


> ....
> 
> I am surprised that both boats would be about same price. I could imagine an asking price for a 33 mk2 would be 50-150% higher than an early C&C35 if both were in equivalent condition.


My thoughts too. The price was not given.. either the 35-1 should be beyond pristine or the 33-2 may have some issues...


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

I asked the dealer about the boat and its price. The dealer said it was priced down because the current owner did a bad paint job on the bow and stern, possibly tried to remove the name of the boat. I don't know why people do that, but if in case a new paint job is required, I'd assume I can do it myself (carefully)? Or hire someone to do it professionally?

I am going to see the boat tomorrow, other than the well know wet core deck issue, window leak, anything else I should look at? 

Thanks.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

sailwing said:


> I asked the dealer about the boat and its price. The dealer said it was priced down because the current owner did a bad paint job on the bow and stern, possibly tried to remove the name of the boat. I don't know why people do that, but if in case a new paint job is required, I'd assume I can do it myself (carefully)? Or hire someone to do it professionally?
> 
> I am going to see the boat tomorrow, other than the well know wet core deck issue, window leak, anything else I should look at?
> 
> Thanks.


How about the not-as-well-known, but-many-times-more-expensive-to-repair wet hull core issue?

You might look around for a C&C 35 Mark II, that was the best of the bunch, solid construction with excellent performance.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

sailwing said:


> I asked the dealer about the boat and its price. The dealer said it was priced down because the current owner did a bad paint job on the bow and stern, possibly tried to remove the name of the boat. I don't know why people do that, but if in case a new paint job is required, I'd assume I can do it myself (carefully)? Or hire someone to do it professionally?
> .


Be sure to get a good idea on what a paint job would cost and factor that into any offer.

A truly professional job could easily run $15-20K - probably more than the price of the boat. Especially if a 'bad' paint job has to be 'undone' first.


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

Hi sailingfool, thank you. I was able to find an article from cncphotoalbum. That article describes that the C&C 33 mk2 is "only the forward panels of the hull are balsa cored. The rest of the hull is a conventional hand lay-up of mat and roving, with a isophthalic gelcoat and skinning resin. The 33's larger sisters (35, 38, 41, and 44) have balsa coring throughout their hulls, while the smaller sisters (30 and 27) have no coring at all in the hull"

Does it make sense to you?


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## FreeAgent (Apr 19, 2017)

sailwing said:


> I asked the dealer about the boat and its price. The dealer said it was priced down because the current owner did a bad paint job on the bow and stern, possibly tried to remove the name of the boat. I don't know why people do that, but if in case a new paint job is required, I'd assume I can do it myself (carefully)? Or hire someone to do it professionally?
> 
> I am going to see the boat tomorrow, other than the well know wet core deck issue, window leak, anything else I should look at?
> 
> Thanks.


These boats are only painted after there has been some damage or if the original gelcoat has badly faded. I have a 1978 boat with original gelcoat and it is still in quite good shape. Wouldn't think of painting it myself. (I did once paint a friends Grampian 26, but we had a fully equipped shop available). I could see the C&C 35 getting painted if a major upgrade was being done, but the 86 C&C33 should still be good if cared for.

Most owners can't really paint a boat themselves without it ending up a real mess. You need to spray on several coats of primers and two part polyurethane like Awlgrip. The paint is toxic and you need a properly ventilated shop and breathing gear. I don't know what they are charging these days, but I would guess in the $5-10+k range for topsides only depending on where you are.

To find wet core and other issues you will need proper instruments. Before buying you need to have an independent survey done and it should be part of any offer. You will have to pay for the survey, so be sure you have the right boat before you get that far.

PS: I see Faster covered painting above. Maybe my guess at costs are on low side!


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## FreeAgent (Apr 19, 2017)

Changing subject a bit, but anyone seen hull wrapping done in NA?

http://vinylboatwrap.co.nz/vinyl-boat-wrapping/boat-wrap-process/

Looks good and is less expensive it seems.

Found one in British Columbia. http://www.wrapboats.ca/

Here, where we haul out every seson, I would be a bit concerned about the heavy nylon straps damaging the vinyl.


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

Interesting! Thank you.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

In my experience with the 33's, there are two types .... those with repaired mast steps and those that need it rebuilt. Go to Marine Survey 101 and scroll down about a dozen photos to the 33 hanging in the slings, then look at the two following photos to get the whole story.

ps. Some 35's did have fully cored hulls. One must remember the disclaimer on all manufacturer brochures ... "Specifications may change without notice"


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

Boatpoker, are you saying both mk1 and mk2 have the same issue?


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

sailwing said:


> Boatpoker, are you saying both mk1 and mk2 have the same issue?


In my experience, yes, although I have surveyed many more mk11's than mk1's. In fact it's been quite a while since I've even seen a mk1, maybe they are all done by now


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

Thx for letting me know. So it is a deal killer?


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

sailwing said:


> Thx for letting me know. So it is a deal killer?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, I'm not saying that. Just have someone with experience check it out.


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

I saw someone did that himself, and he did a very good job in my opinion. I am not sure if I can do the same. If this is done professionally, how much would it cost me?


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

sailwing said:


> I saw someone did that himself, and he did a very good job in my opinion. I am not sure if I can do the same. If this is done professionally, how much would it cost me?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Depends on where you are. The one in the photos was quoted 15k .... it was scrapped.


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

Is the 33 the only C&C that has this issue?


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

sailwing said:


> Is the 33 the only C&C that has this issue?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This specific issue ..... yes.


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## FreeAgent (Apr 19, 2017)

boatpoker said:


> This specific issue ..... yes.


I saw a C&C 29 have the mast step collapse during a race. He motored in with all rigging hanging loose. If I recall correctly a wooden support hidden under the mast step had collapsed.

By the way, I just spent the evening reading Marine Survey 101 as well as the contained links about propane and rigging. Well worth reading for anyone buying a boat or even just owning a boat.

I have been around boats my whole life, but still found enough on that link to make a check list that I will use to go over my own boat this summer (due for insurance survey before long!)


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

sailwing said:


> I don't know if I did anything wrong but could not find a post compare the two.
> 
> My admiral fell in love with a C&C 35 mk1 1972. I am thinking that might be too old of a boat, I know it is built strong though. On the other hand, the 1986 C&C 33 mk2 is in similar size, 14 years newer, but with cored hull. Two boats are in the same ballpark price.
> 
> ...


I found this nice write up on the classic C&C 35.
C&C 35

I would (subjectively) give it a very high "row away" score. I can see why the Admiral likes it! Age is one factor, but condition is more important. Extra credit if it was built by Hinterhoeller. Our previous boat was a Hinterhoeller-designed and built Niagara 26 -- very high quality construction.

Full disclosure: we once shopped a sistership up in Seattle when we were shopping a bigger boat, but the owner wanted way too much for it and the old A4 was a pile of rust. Damned Good Looking boat, tho! And the Admiral liked the rakish sheer as much as I.


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

Boatpoker, supposedly the centerboard version of the boat doesn't have the pile of putty, it is still going to collapse?


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

sailwing said:


> Boatpoker, supposedly the centerboard version of the boat doesn't have the pile of putty, it is still going to collapse?
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry, never even seen a centreboard version.


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

Maybe a little bit off the topic here, from a re-sale value point of view, if I use the two boats for 10 years, one would be 55 years old and one would be 41 years old, assume they were all equally maintained, the younger boat will for sure have better resale value?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

sailwing said:


> Maybe a little bit off the topic here, from a re-sale value point of view, if I use the two boats for 10 years, one would be 55 years old and one would be 41 years old, assume they were all equally maintained, the younger boat will for sure have better resale value?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But by then the older is truly a classic!!  

Like they say in Real estate... Condition, Condition, Condition!


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

Today I looked at the 33 mk2, found a lot of hairline cracks like what's in the pictures below. What would cause it? Is this an indication of potential water penetration?









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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

That sort of thing is largely cosmetic, but the extent of it starts to explain why the two boats under discussion are similarly priced... Look harder and look deeper.


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## FreeAgent (Apr 19, 2017)

Faster said:


> That sort of thing is largely cosmetic, but the extent of it starts to explain why the two boats under discussion are similarly priced... Look harder and look deeper.


I have seen that sort of thing before on C&Cs but mainly around the flush ports where they are quite unsightly. On any boats, the gelcoat gets stressed in places, and some minor hairline cracks are inevitable. But it shouldn't have widespread cracking like that. Probably due to poor initial construction. Too much catalyst or accelerator? Boatpoker has probably seen more C&Cs than I have and may be able comment . I wouldn't buy a boat with those cracks. There are many better choices out there.


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

Thanks for the input. What surprised me was just there were many of them. Everyone of them start at where there are screws, corners, essentially wherever there is stress risers. I have not seen that before.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Almost certain heavy moisture in the balsa core. Lightly tap with a small hammer, if it sounds quite dull the core is decaying. If it sounds hollow the core has disintegrated. If you qet a nice crisp report the core is sound and bonded to the FRP skin.

My money is on very dull to hollow sounding.


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

Thank you boatpoker. This sounds like an expensive fix down the road to me.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

sailwing said:


> Today I looked at the 33 mk2, found a lot of hairline cracks like what's in the pictures below. What would cause it? Is this an indication of potential water penetration?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gel coat too thick when applied. Continues to (sloooooooowly) cure harder over time.... and slightly shrink. And then crack.

Many boats will exhibit this at some smaller part of the deck/cabin surface, esp. around right angles where it was shot a bit too thick in the mold. Normally cosmetic and not a weakness per se.

One side bar: cracking around the flush-mounted C&C fixed ports is often due to very thick initial gel coat because the applicators did not figure out a way to spray it accurately into the sharp 90 degree part of the mold.

Side Bar #2: there is a late 70's Islander 30 in our area with the _entire_ cabin top and deck cracked and alligatored due to this - non skid and all! Really catches your eye.


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

Thanks guys. What I am trying to determine is whether this will develop into something that requires major fix, that converts to a big chunk of money.



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## FreeAgent (Apr 19, 2017)

sailwing said:


> Thanks guys. What I am trying to determine is whether this will develop into something that requires major fix, that converts to a big chunk of money.


I would look for another boat. You don't want to get into this.


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## FreeAgent (Apr 19, 2017)

olson34 said:


> One side bar: cracking around the flush-mounted C&C fixed ports is often due to very thick initial gel coat because the applicators did not figure out a way to spray it accurately into the sharp 90 degree part of the mold.


That and also because acrylic panes were superglued to the gelcoat. Different thermal expansion created stresses. Gelcoat cracked. I saw one case where the glue must not have been properly applied and the whole window popped out. Another sad story

I had a Euro boat with similar fixed ports, but they had gap around edge that was filled plus adhered to cabin with some type of flexible adhesive sealant (Sikaflex maybe). I think Catalina uses a similar Dow product (795? ) Problem solved because the panes can expand/contract independently. BTW, I have used grey Dow795 to replace those rubber splines that early C&C ports have and usually pop out!


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

Thanks FreeAgent. My eyes are finally attracted to a 74 mk2, maintained very well, very good condition. Engine has been upgraded to diesel.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

sailwing said:


> Thanks FreeAgent. My eyes are finally attracted to a 74 mk2, maintained very well, very good condition. Engine has been upgraded to diesel.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Now you are on the right track...

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## FreeAgent (Apr 19, 2017)

sailwing said:


> Thanks FreeAgent. My eyes are finally attracted to a 74 mk2, maintained very well, very good condition. Engine has been upgraded to diesel.


Those early C&C 35s were solid boats and if well maintained can be reasonable buys. I used to race in a fleet that had 3 or 4 of the Mk1s and 2s. Typical C&C racer cruisers of the day. Bear in mind if intention is to cruise that they have quite a big rig. Need good self-tailing winches and maybe not too big (135% or so) furling genoa.

Look forward to seeing some Pics. 74 is quite an old boat. We have a similar vintage C&C designed 78 Ontario 32 and it is still in excellent shape, so no reason that 35-2 can't be too. We have a couple of 35s in our area that are cruised and both have made return trips to the Bahamas/Caribbean.


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

I will definitely get some pictures taken if I can get the deal closed. Will keep you posted. Thanks again for the input.


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

So, the 35 mk2 has been measured for moisture level and the conclusion is that there is moisture evident in two spots however the deck is firm. I was told that it was normal for an old boat this age.

The seller is honest with me and I tend to trust his judgment. What do you think?


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

sailwing said:


> So, the 35 mk2 has been measured for moisture level and the conclusion is that there is moisture evident in two spots however the deck is firm. I was told that it was normal for an old boat this age.
> 
> The seller is honest with me and I tend to trust his judgment. What do you think?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


From way up here in the third balcony, it looks like you are about to own a C&C ...
And, the journey begins!

:grin


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

Yes, the journey. I am excited. I know there is a steep learning curve for me.

I don't mind working on the boat but I hope I can spend time enjoy sailing instead of fixing all the time. Reading the forum I learnt that condition is more important than age when it comes to 30-40 year boat.

This boat I am looking at seems all fine other than what the owner reported the couple of spots. I know the readings can be deceiving if not used correctly. The owner tested the teak chart table which I know is dry shows 15%, the spots showed higher reading are at 30%. I am thinking there might be calibration or other affecting issue?


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1800

The headsail overlap is significant. I would suspect that a modern composite furling/reefing genoa with three vertical battens would drive that efficient hull very well with only 110 or 120 % sizing. Easy tacking and easy sailing short handed.
Photo attached of our boat with it's 95% high-performance jib, at full speed in about 12 kts true. Note that with that measured overlap it sheets inside the shroud base.

If racing, just be sure that your rating reflects your in-use headsail size. No need for a largish 150. 
(Opinions on sale today, only one cent...)

Beautiful boat!


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

Deal! 

Initially there will be time needed to get used to and training, learning, training again..., when the kids are a little older, hopefully I can train them to enjoy sailing and get into racing with me...


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

So i encountered a logistics issue, the surveyor cannot come in time before the launch. Is it reasonable to have someone with experience to tap around the haul to see if there is delaminations in the hull in stead of waiting for the surveyor? The surveyor can do an in-water survey?


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

sailwing said:


> So i encountered a logistics issue, the surveyor cannot come in time before the launch. Is it reasonable to have someone with experience to tap around the haul to see if there is delaminations in the hull in stead of waiting for the surveyor? The surveyor can do an in-water survey?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That could be a very expensive choice.


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## FreeAgent (Apr 19, 2017)

sailwing said:


> So i encountered a logistics issue, the surveyor cannot come in time before the launch. Is it reasonable to have someone with experience to tap around the haul to see if there is delaminations in the hull in stead of waiting for the surveyor? The surveyor can do an in-water survey?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There is more to examining hull than tapping for delaminations. Rudder, osmotic blisters, keel/hull joint, signs of grounding, prop/shaft/strut/bearing, exterior of thru-hulls, etc. I am sure boatpoker could add more. Delay the launch or find another surveyor or qualified person who can come. A knowledgeable boat owner or maintenance person/shop could probably do this.

Finding the right person would be the challenge. Don't know about others, but I check these things on our boat every Fall & then Spring before launch.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

The alternative would be to book a "half lift" and have the boat surveyed while hanging in the slings.. assuming a travel lift yard is nearby.

More costly but less risky.. such haulouts are part and parcel of any survey around here where boats are afloat all year.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

sailwing said:


> So i encountered a logistics issue, the surveyor cannot come in time before the launch. Is it reasonable to have someone with experience to tap around the haul to see if there is delaminations in the hull in stead of waiting for the surveyor? The surveyor can do an in-water survey?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Please update your bio here with location or sailing area. A lot of the advice you need is going to be based on geography.
Thanks,
Loren (in PDX)


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

Okay, understood. Thx everyone.

Olson34, I am from Windsor Ontario, the boat is located in Georgian Bay Area. I will find the spot in my profile to update.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Try Dave Buchanan AMS. Best in the business


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

sailwing said:


> Okay, understood. Thx everyone.
> 
> Olson34, I am from Windsor Ontario, the boat is located in Georgian Bay Area. I will find the spot in my profile to update.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sailwing.. creating a signature line with your boat type and size another good idea.. we don't need to click to your profile. Go to your user CP and 'edit signature'. It will appear at the bottom of each post (see below)


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## SOSOS (Feb 19, 2017)

Was the 86 C&C 33 you showed pictures of in Michigan by chance? Was thinking of looking at one there.


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

No it is not in Michigan. It is in Canada instead.


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## sailwing (Apr 2, 2017)

I was able to do sea trials on the 74 C&C 35. I have observed two things:

1. The engine starter sometimes has clicking sound but wouldn't move; however after turning the key back and forth a couple times, it will also turn the engine and start. Is this a problem with the solenoid?

2. The fuel gauge doesn't seem to move; the owner said it was working last year. Could it be the float (I assume it is a float) got stuck?

Thank you 


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