# Used boats are REALLY retaining value.



## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

Here's a for instance....every year for the past 5 years a few B343's, (2005) come up for sale locally. And they have been consistently priced at $100,000, (CDN) every year. 

It seems like every brand of used boat has it's low (ish) settling point, and the price hardly moves from there. And it's not like we have a lot of inflation either. 

That B343 should be down to $80,000 if basic rules of depreciation were figured.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Prices settling after a dozen years doesn't sound too unusual to me. However, I assume you're referring to asking prices, which may not reflect well on what's actually being paid. 

Even though inflation is low, it still exists. Therefore, even retaining a stable price, is still losing value.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

I've seen this too and find that used boats (say more than 10 years old) maintained in good to excellent condition do retain their value. I'm on my 4th boat and have sold the previous 3 for at or above the purchase price while owning them each for 3-5 years. I use this to illustrate to my wife that our boats are practically free! She doesn't agree, of course, since we've paid plenty in slips fees, storage, maintenance, gear, etc.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

Varies by region - here in Florida boats seem to continue to lose their value - too many for sale , not enough buyers, and as pointed out above - easy to see asking price - but what are they really selling for?

The key to selling a sailboat in Florida - needs to have been kept up and updated, clean below and priced competitively.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I have been browsing boats for sale for over a year now as I'm getting closer to buying my first 'big' boat. Not pretending to be scientific here, but it seems like good used boats hold their price fairly well. However, there is a glut of substandard, neglected boats on the market, and their asking prices are often totally unrealistic. Hidden here and there are real diamonds in the rough (all others are just rough).


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

It doesn't take long when boat shopping to learn that an overpriced used boat in great condition is "cheaper" than a low priced piece of crap!


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Don0190 said:


> It doesn't take long when boat shopping to learn that an overpriced used boat in great condition is "cheaper" than a low priced piece of crap!


Yes, but not all low priced boats are pieces of crap, the trick is having the knowledge and experience to know the difference, know a boats real limitations and knowing what you will really be expecting of the boat.

Lots of good 30 and 50 year old boats, cheap, with stable prices that will get the job done for most people.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

It probably comes down to the availability of financing. Boats that are less than 20 years old can still be financed by a bank with a standard boat loan. That makes the market of available customers broader, and therefore the prices stay higher. 

Also, you may be seeing the best boats listed on YW. Lets face it, in the 100k range, a broker is making max $10k commission. May seem like a lot to you and I, but not to those guys. They're only picking up the BEST MAINTAINED CLEANEST listings that are likely to sell quickly. So there are probably many 343s that are sold off cheaper (ex-charter boats, beat up boats, worn out boats) that just dont make it up to Yachtworld. That being said, those boats offer less value as you'll easily spend a lot more in time than you would in money getting them up to snuff. 

Another compounding factor is the inflation in the cost of new boats. Despite going through one of the worst economic periods of all time as well as relatively low commodity prices, there's been *HUGE* price inflation in new boat models, and while they're not apples to apples....the waterline is the "same". 

I own a B343...bought it brand new in 2008 and excitedly posted much about it (including some pricing info) on these boards. My family has held their own over the past near decade and here is what I can say categorically - there is no way I'm buying a new 34-36 boat now without incurring a lot more pain financially than I would have back in the timeframe I bought Jendai. I think a new Beneteau in that range is now over $200k without options. Not only that, you seem to get *LESS* boat - no more travelers, smaller winches, saildrives instead of transmission/shaft setups, less interior wood joinery and more laminates, less cabinetry in general, less portlights and hatches and more "fixed" windows", cored hulls above waterline vs. solid all the way, wood toe-rails instead of aluminum, smaller pullpits and pushpits, fewer jammers, no mid-ship cleats anymore, etc. They may have marginally more space below decks...but not to justify the drop in those other areas that were important to me. 

So, given a 34' sailboat new from Beneteau is over $200k....a nice 5-6 year old 343 with barely 250 hours on the yanmar with a/c, a proper traveler, older but functional electronics and some owner upgrades like a feathering prop at a $100k is a downright BARGAIN to me! 

Sometimes, I wonder if boat manufacturers lose track of laws of supply and demand. If you raise the price without any alteration of the demand curve, then you will move quantity demanded (less sold boats). Eventually, you just wont be able to justify the cost of manufacturing. If boat manufactures want to raise their prices (in order to enhance and/or maintain their margins), then they need to be doing a *LOT* more to shift the demand curve. As it stands right now, its not stable or functional IN THE US MARKET. Now, if Canada or LatAM was booming, then fine...Beneteau could be exporting there. But I dont see that many more sailboats around when I travel there. I guess thats why we've seen so many US manufactured co's pull out of the sailboat market in the past 10 years or so (Valiant, Sabre, Island Packet being sold off/bankrupt, Caliber is gone, Hunter went through bankruptcy, Catalina doesn't make a boat over 45 feet anymore). 

A trend I'm watching very carefully is this recent spike in the US dollar. Given that Beneteau manufactures so much in the USA, their products are going to get a lot more "pricey" unless they shift mauf. back to France or Brazil. In fact, look at their newest models....very LARGE boats that aren't made in Marion, rather France (Oceanis Yacht lineup). They're playing the currency game! 

While I like Catalina's new 425, I see bad things for them in the near future. They're building in the USA with a strong dollar. So unless all of their components are made internationally, they're going to face a very tough go of it vs Hanse, Dehler, Dufour and others that aren't making things here but are selling boats here. I hope they have very smart procurement analysts and are really squeezing the suppliers for the best pricing...otherwise their boats will be priced out of the market. 

I'm going to the Miami BOat show this year and will have updated street pricing info on the models out there...so time will tell!!!


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

I am amazed that 10 year old used sailboats can still be priced at close to $2,000,000. I hope they are open to more reasonable offers when we are buying in 3 years. I have an email in to Oyster to rough price out a new one...

2008 Oyster 655 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

2010 Oyster 655 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

2008 Oyster 655 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

Agreed with the scarcity of viable used boats. There are lots of used boats out there, but not many that you can sail away without mods and repairs. That situation will grow as the market ages and less new boats come on. 

So I think the number of used boats is in decline if you discount the ones that require half or more of their value in refits.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Ninefingers said:


> Here's a for instance....every year for the past 5 years a few B343's, (2005) come up for sale locally. And they have been consistently priced at $100,000, (CDN) every year.
> 
> It seems like every brand of used boat has it's low (ish) settling point, and the price hardly moves from there. And it's not like we have a lot of inflation either.
> 
> That B343 should be down to $80,000 if basic rules of depreciation were figured.


soldboats.com show a history of 343 of your noted vintage selling for 7-12k less than asking.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

night0wl said:


> ... in the 100k range, a broker is making max $10k commission. May seem like a lot to you and I, but not to those guys. They're only picking up the BEST MAINTAINED CLEANEST listings that are likely to sell quickly....


This nails it. the first 5 years there is depreciation. 5-10 years condition starts to matter. After 10 years much of the equipment is into a replacement cycle, so condition is everything. If the owner does only the barest minimum, the boat continues to depreciate right off the bottom of the cliff, like a car. If the owner replaces and refits as needed, then depreciation nearly stops, because deterioration stops, like a house (I'm not sure the house actually goes up in value, it is the underlying real estate that does).

* The hull will last virtually forever.
* The mast will last a very long time.
* The interior, like a house or fine furniture can last a long time with care, varnishing, and reupholstered as needed.
* Engines are replaced (mine are new).
* Rigging and blocks are replaced as needed.
* Systems (AC, windlass, pumps) are replace as needed.

But keeping a boat to that standard requires effort and expense.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

pdqaltair said:


> This nails it. the first 5 years there is depreciation. 5-10 years condition starts to matter. After 10 years much of the equipment is into a replacement cycle, so condition is everything. If the owner does only the barest minimum, the boat continues to depreciate right off the bottom of the cliff, like a car. If the owner replaces and refits as needed, then depreciation nearly stops, because deterioration stops, like a house (I'm not sure the house actually goes up in value, it is the underlying real estate that does).
> 
> * The hull will last virtually forever.
> * The mast will last a very long time.
> ...


After somewhere around 4,000 surveys An older boat in truly good condition is as rare has hen's teeth. I may have seen a half dozen that impressed me.


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## amwbox (Aug 22, 2015)

night0wl said:


> Not only that, you seem to get *LESS* boat - no more travelers, smaller winches, saildrives instead of transmission/shaft setups, less interior wood joinery and more laminates, less cabinetry in general, less portlights and hatches and more "fixed" windows", cored hulls above waterline vs. solid all the way, wood toe-rails instead of aluminum, smaller pullpits and pushpits, fewer jammers, no mid-ship cleats anymore, etc. They may have marginally more space below decks...but not to justify the drop in those other areas that were important to me.


Boat manufacturers found out quickly that making boats _too_ structurally sound results in boats hanging around for decades, changing hands on the used market continually, instead proceeding in pieces to the landfill. It would behoove them to think of ways to design at least some measure of timed obsolescence into their current boats so they aren't still haunting them on the used market in 2065.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

amwbox said:


> Boat manufacturers found out quickly that making boats _too_ structurally sound results in boats hanging around for decades, changing hands on the used market continually, instead proceeding in pieces to the landfill. It would behoove them to think of ways to design at least some measure of timed obsolescence into their current boats so they aren't still haunting them on the used market in 2065.


Not really a problem for boat builders. Just as people buy new cars when there are great choices in used cars, there is a percentage of people who just want a new boat not a used one!


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

boatpoker said:


> After somewhere around 4,000 surveys An older boat in truly good condition is as rare has hen's teeth. I may have seen a half dozen that impressed me.


I'm tempted to have you look at mine .


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Ninefingers said:


> I'm tempted to have you look at mine .


Currently cruising Bahamas. Glad to have a look when we're back in Toronto end of May


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

boatpoker said:


> After somewhere around 4,000 surveys An older boat in truly good condition is as rare has hen's teeth. I may have seen a half dozen that impressed me.


Strange position for a boat surveyor to take, I can't imagine the world would have much use for a marine surveyor if everyone bought new 

My opinions have been formed after a career of working on commercial vessels (which are just boats with a different purpose than yachts).

I have worked on literally dozens. The oldest of which was a sailing vessel whose rotten hull was hauled off the bottom of lake Erie and rebuilt. The vessels keel was laid in 1812.

The next oldest has been in pretty well continuous passenger service since 1894, the next since 1914 etc.

Some of these old and moderately old commercial vessels were built of such superior quality to some modern vessels that they are virtually irreplaceable today.

The quality of maintenance on these vessels has ranged from poor to exceptional.

I have seen nothing to convince me that even a moderately well maintained and updated vessel with decent genes can't be operated safely and efficiently by capable crew.

If all systems have been allowed to rot to the point of no return, the boat is junk, but if at least the hull, keel, mast and deck are reasonably sound, I call that an inexpensive clean slate to do what you want with.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

amwbox said:


> ...It would behoove them to think of ways to design at least some measure of timed obsolescence into their current boats.....


Like the sails, standing rigging, engines and anything electronic, which leave many boats worth less than nothing. Bonus points for boats with cored hulls, with non-potted penetrations.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Arcb said:


> Strange position for a boat surveyor to take, I can't imagine the world would have much use for a marine surveyor if everyone bought new .


5 or 6 times a year I am hired to survey brand new boats. The list of recommendations is often as long as a 40yr. old boat.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

boatpoker said:


> Currently cruising Bahamas. Glad to have a look when we're back in Toronto end of May


Actually I wouldn't mind you going through the electrical system. sorry that this is off topic, but do surveyor's provide an hourly rate for such a thing? I don't need to know what the rate is here, but would like the option when a full survey is not required.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

boatpoker said:


> 5 or 6 times a year I am hired to survey brand new boats. The list of recommendations is often as long and a 40yr. old boat.


Absolutely agree.

I have in my career taken possession of 5 new boats direct from shipyards for sea trial. Each and every one was a total nightmare. Problem alarms, leaky hatches, bad wiring.

I think many new boats really need a 2 year break in period before the owners can get all the bugs worked out. I would never buy a new boat with my own money. Basically, they need to devaluate significantly before they work right.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Ninefingers said:


> Actually I wouldn't mind you going through the electrical system. sorry that this is off topic, but do surveyor's provide an hourly rate for such a thing? I don't need to know what the rate is here, but would like the option when a full survey is not required.


Can't speak for anyone else but I do that quite often.
Take a look at Marine Survey 101 , might give you some ideas about what you can check yourself.


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## NarwhalChaser (Apr 11, 2007)

Arcb said:


> I think many new boats really need a 2 year break in period before the owners can get all the bugs worked out. I would never buy a new boat with my own money. Basically, they need to devaluate significantly before they work right.


I bought a new boat once and sold it after it was finally totally dialed in with absolutely no help from the manufacture (mostly remedying installation and commissioning errors) and also took the big depreciation hit. Never again, I'm now only going to be in the market for boats that have hit the flat spot on their depreciation curve and have been well maintained.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

amwbox said:


> Boat manufacturers found out quickly that making boats _too_ structurally sound results in boats hanging around for decades, changing hands on the used market continually, instead proceeding in pieces to the landfill. It would behoove them to think of ways to design at least some measure of timed obsolescence into their current boats so they aren't still haunting them on the used market in 2065.


This is kind of a scary thought, boats are more like airplanes than cars

short of catastrophe.

If I got a hole in my car... I will likely survive without much problem or even notice; a hole in my boat, in the middle of the Atlantic... would be much more serious. If you built a boat to fall apart... could be kind of dangerous.

I understand how there is some danger with a car failure.. but I would much rather my steering in a car to fail in 20 minutes than a boat in the middle of Lake Erie


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Asking price means almost nothing. You need to look at actual selling prices to make any conclusions about retaining value.

About 7 years ago I did extensive analysis of pricing history of a major US manufacturers' boat of many models ranging from 28 to 36 feet. I used Soldboat.com data, which admittedly may create selection bias by focusing on the best maintained boats. I found that, for the most part, boats in the 5-15 year age range sold for about their original purchase price when new. The flat selling price over time meant depreciation, due to owners' loss of opportunity cost (vs. putting their dollars into growth investments), inflation, non-recouped maintenance costs, and all the owner upgrades that did not increase the selling price of the boat. Newer boats sold for higher prices, but they were purchased for higher prices too.


Ninefingers said:


> Agreed with the scarcity of viable used boats. There are lots of used boats out there, but not many that you can sail away without mods and repairs. That situation will grow as the market ages and less new boats come on.
> 
> So I think the number of used boats is in decline if you discount the ones that require half or more of their value in refits.


I agree in general, especially when you see the fake wood laminates, foam-backed PVC headliners (which will lose their plasticizer and crack in about 15 years) and other cheapening features of some newer boats.

In both of the keel boats that I have bought, I have paid a few thousand dollars premium for better than average condition, with the expectation that repairs and reliability would be better, which is critically important due to the cost of losing sailing time if something breaks. An old, worn boat can be far more costly to keep going in the long run.

I keep hearing these stories of old cheap boats that "just need a little TLC to triple their value. I see a lot of them in boat yards, not sailing. Haven't really seen one yet where the owner was able to turn it around quickly and cheaply into a much more valuable vessel. You can pour a lot of time, energy, and materials into it and still end up with a boat that was worth about what you paid for it.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

TakeFive said:


> I keep hearing these stories of old cheap boats that "just need a little TLC to triple their value. I see a lot of them in boat yards, not sailing. Haven't really seen one yet where the owner was able to turn it around quickly and cheaply into a much more valuable vessel. You can pour a lot of time, energy, and materials into it and still end up with a boat that was worth about what you paid for it.


Thats because labor rates in the US are unbelievably high. Marine firms in yards can demand $100/hour billable rate from owners and pay their employees $15-20 an hour. Its borderline criminal, especially considering some of the absolute hack jobs you see some yards and techs perform.

If someone wants to buy an older boat and do a stem to stern refit, the only option you have is DIY or to somehow get the boat out of the USA and to a yard in Guatemala, Grenada, Trinidad. But how many of those project boats you see in yards are capable of that kind of journey! Some of my friends in Florida are hopeful about Cuba for this kind of "nearshoring" due to the quality of labor thats dirt cheap....but then again, parts and supplies are rare commodities there...maybe in a few years.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> .....I found that, for the most part, boats in the 5-15 year age range sold for about their original purchase price when new.....


Are you sure you put that correctly? All boat prices depreciate significantly in the first few years. For this to be true, prices would then need to go back up again, in that window. This does eventually happen, but I think it takes substantially longer.

My 12 yr old boat is worth a bit less than half of its new cost. I bought her at about 4 years old, so I haven't taken that big of a hit.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

night0wl said:


> .....Marine firms in yards can demand $100/hour billable rate from owners and pay their employees $15-20 an hour....


I can understand the huge disparity, because the yard rates are also paying for the yard, not just the employee. However, what bothers me is that we pay the same rate, regardless of the skill of the employee. Their best and their worst diesel mechanic are the same rate to the customer, but are paid differently, so have a different profit margin to the yard. Therefore, it would stand to reason, the yard wants to use the less skilled as much as they can. I believe this is a major factor in all of our incompetent yard employee stories.

It also bothers me that I literally pay the same hourly rate for the experienced diesel mechanic, as I pay for the entry level worker who does nothing more than grind the winch to send the rigger up my mast. Then just stands there and waits, while the clock runs at the same rate times 2 people. I paid the same rate for the experienced rigger to restep my mast as I paid for the low man on the totem pole, who was assigned to roll on a coat of bottom paint. The only exception I recall was when I asked for a quote to aggressively scrub all my non-skid, before having my hull waxed (so that the cleaner wouldn't strip the wax, if I waited to do it, after she was launched). $50 per hour for a guy to push on pole attached to a scrub brush and haul a bucket around. A job I do in about 90 minutes, but they estimated 3 hours! I passed.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I remember a period in the 70s when inflation was hot and sailing was a growth industry when you could buy a new boat, use it few years, and sell it for more than you paid. The main reason for this was the price of new boats were going up so quickly, the lightly used one looked like a bargain. I doubt (and hope) we never see an economy like that again.

Depreciation is a fact of life for boats today. I always thought the sweet spot for boats was between 5 and 15 years old. Had taken the big depreciation hit and were still new enough to not need a lot of updating. I now think that looking at even older boats makes sense. Primarily because so many sailboat maker when out of business around 1990 and there is a much wider choice of different boats when you look a bit earlier. Does mean you have to look a lot harder to find the well maintained ones. But find a gem and you can use it for a number of years and maybe even sell it later for close to what you paid.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> I can understand the huge disparity, because the yard rates are also paying for the yard, not just the employee. However, what bothers me is that we pay the same rate, regardless of the skill of the employee. Their best and their worst diesel mechanic are the same rate to the customer, but are paid differently, so have a different profit margin to the yard. Therefore, it would stand to reason, the yard wants to use the less skilled as much as they can. I believe this is a major factor in all of our incompetent yard employee stories.
> 
> It also bothers me that I literally pay the same hourly rate for the experienced diesel mechanic, as I pay for the entry level worker who does nothing more than grind the winch to send the rigger up my mast. Then just stands there and waits, while the clock runs at the same rate times 2 people. I paid the same rate for the experienced rigger to restep my mast as I paid for the low man on the totem pole, who was assigned to roll on a coat of bottom paint. The only exception I recall was when I asked for a quote to aggressively scrub all my non-skid, before having my hull waxed (so that the cleaner wouldn't strip the wax, if I waited to do it, after she was launched). $50 per hour for a guy to push on pole attached to a scrub brush and haul a bucket around. A job I do in about 90 minutes, but they estimated 3 hours! I passed.


I always keep this in mind. whenever you see a quote for labor of $100/hr....

In Mobile Alabama is the guy who does all my work, or as much of it as I can finagle named Donnie Brennan.

Donnie is the boatwright for the US Olympic team, and has been for 4 or 5 olympiads. He has done a huge percentage of the NA and World champion bottom jobs for major one design class winners over the last 20 years. His bottom jobs and keel fairing jobs in the raceing world are littlerly worth every penny, when I sold my J-22 years ago I sold it for $7,000 more than it would have been worth because Donnie had faired my bottom, cost me $7,000.

His labor rate is $100/hr, the exact same as BoBo the yard moron locally.

In my eyes Donnie is worth every penny of that $100/hr. He really is a master craftsman and I have never worried about what comes out of his yard. BoBo is an idiot with a paint brush who ruins as much as he fixed most of the time.

Btw years ago I worked as BoBo and I thought I was overpaid even then.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

night0wl said:


> Thats because labor rates in the US are unbelievably high.


I was not referring to that. I was talking strictly DIY, with boats sitting in yards for years because the owners got in way over their heads and found out that the little bit of TLC turned into a significant refit. Hired help does not even enter into that equation.

Hypothetically, you can pick up a "bargain" for $10k, end up putting $30,000 of repairs and upgrades while you work for 2 years to make her seaworthy, and end up with at $10k boat that you haven't even been able to sail yet.

Or you can buy a $35k boat in sail-away condition, put in $5k of normal maintenance and minor upgrades over two years of sailing, and end up with a boat worth $35k after two years of having fun.

This is an exaggerated example, but I see too many people who follow the first example because they mistakenly thought they would get a bargain.


Minnewaska said:


> Are you sure you put that correctly? All boat prices depreciate significantly in the first few years. For this to be true, prices would then need to go back up again, in that window. This does eventually happen, but I think it takes substantially longer.


My study was not fully scientific, and the boats were sold new in the pre-Internet days. My reference to new price was a few data points of dealer list. Fully commissioned price is probably much higher, and probably does depreciate out quickly in the first few years. So take my comments with a grain of salt.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I agree buying a boat that you need two years to make seaworthy and expect to get your money back out of is not a good move. 

When I buy a boat, I better be able to sail it 300 or 400 miles home with no work and no concerns. I want the sails to be serviceable while I find sail makers to fix me up with what I want, the engine has to run well. I see no connection between seaworthiness and electronics what so ever, they are a labour saving device, nothing more, nothing less.

This is what I expect whether I pay $5000 or $30000 for a boat.

Cosmetic touch ups, electronics and comfort systems don't make a boat seaworthy, they make it comfortable and pretty. 

Getting luxurious accommodations, convenient electronics, pretty gelcoat and seaworthiness confused is how people wind up blowing too much money (for them) on boats a lot of the time I think.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

The issue is with first time boat buyers who don't know what they don't know. They may overlook critical safety issues. They expect a few hours of TLC, and may get two years of pure headaches.

More experienced buyers can assess these things better - as well as sail their current boat while they work on their next boat.


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## Daddio (Sep 25, 2016)

Having recently gone through my third arduous hunt you come to the realisation that older boats, reasonably well cared for with a recent motor upgrade still have great value. As has been stated whether it's the hull, rigging or amenities you are taking about, the quality is still evident and the sailing experience is excellent, therefore the value to the consumer is retained. I bought newer, but my brother has a 40 year old C & C with a new motor and transmission that has been lovingly cared for and provides a wonderful and very solid day on the water, even when the gusts are sending me to the dock.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

TakeFive said:


> The issue is with first time boat buyers who don't know what they don't know. They may overlook critical safety issues. They expect a few hours of TLC, and may get two years of pure headaches.
> 
> More experienced buyers can assess these things better - as well as sail their current boat while they work on their next boat.


Ya it's true. I have a friend who really wants to buy a boat, and he's enticed by the $1000 "deals" for a 27 footer. And yet he can afford to spend more.

I've tried to gently guide him on the benefits of buying the best conditioned boat you can find, but you know how that goes...lol.

He did sort of come around when he went to Westmarine and looked at the cost of parts. Show someone the price of a new winch and see how they change their mind about a fixerupper.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Perhaps a bit of a diversion but I talked to friend at the Toronto Boat Show yesterday. He has been a yacht broker for more than 40 years so knows what is happening in the Ontario market. He said that the last two years have been excellent after many slow years.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

boatpoker said:


> 5 or 6 times a year I am hired to survey brand new boats. The list of recommendations is often as long as a 40yr. old boat.


What are some of the most common recommendations on the new sailboats.


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## Morild (Mar 31, 2013)

ianjoub said:


> I am amazed that 10 year old used sailboats can still be priced at close to $2,000,000. I hope they are open to more reasonable offers when we are buying in 3 years. I have an email in to Oyster to rough price out a new one...
> 
> 2008 Oyster 655 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
> 
> ...


You sent an email to get a rough quote for a multi-million dollar semi-custom boat?

:|


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Morild said:


> You sent an email to get a rough quote for a multi-million dollar semi-custom boat?
> 
> :|


Yes. Does it seem odd? I wanted to know where they start price wise. I got a reply. I will be buying used as they are out of my price range. I though if the price was closer than it was, and I could spread the build cost out over a 2-3 year period, it would be a viable alternative.

I rarely see the super shoal option that Oyster offers on used boats, and it is one of the features I would like to have. It would also have been nice to delete a couple of the cabins in favor of a wet locker with dive compressor and more storage with perhaps another freezer.

As it turn out, not in my future. I figure (just an off the cuff guess) that I could easily add $1m by the time I have it 'tastefully outfitted'.



> Dear Mr. Joubert,
> 
> Thanks for your interest in the Oyster 575, 625 and 675. With this email I have attached photos and brochures for each. Base prices and delivery times are as follows:
> 
> ...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Daddio said:


> Having recently gone through my third arduous hunt you come to the realisation that older boats, reasonably well cared for with a recent motor upgrade still have great value. As has been stated whether it's the hull, rigging or amenities you are taking about, the quality is still evident and the sailing experience is excellent, therefore the value to the consumer is retained. I bought newer, but my brother has a 40 year old C & C with a new motor and transmission that has been lovingly cared for and provides a wonderful and very solid day on the water, even when the gusts are sending me to the dock.


I agree with this. It's doesn't make sense to me that boats increase in value back to their original list prices taking into account the huge initial depreciation. Especially production style boats. Some boats like Catalina's may hold their value better than others because of a brand loyalty and people buying larger models of the same builder ( again Catalina as the example) .

I bought Haleakula a C&C 35 MKIII a 1983 in 1993. She is now 34 years old. I have spend more money on her total than the price I paid for her when I bought her. Constant maintainence and improvements require that. Because of her initial build quality the major overhauls really don't exist. Upgrades on electrical, electronics have happened. New canvas, cushions etc have occurred. I wouldn't say this boat increased in value, but has maintained its value over the last 10 years. She was not a project boat when I got her, but there are always projects in the 24 years I have owned her.

When I bought he I decided to get a large a boat as I could afford and would meet my sailing profile. I had a 28 Islander at the time. I didn't want to go trading upward every 4 years or so, thus we settled on a 35 footer with good build quality. At the time I had it narrowed to three boats and bought the smallest one. A 36 Sabre and 37 Tartan were the other two. The C&C at the time was on the best condition. Any three of them I would have been fine with though. I Knew I would own this boat for 20 years plus do I really wasn't looking at resale value. My primary consideration was the Bones of the boat and was it a good platform. I looked for a boat that didn't have inflated value but was built with a certain quality/ had oversized winches/ well positioned chain plates, good stability in the seaway, not slow, comfortable for two to travel on for a month, but nimble enough to race( which we have given up) . Money and resale value were really not the prime considerations.

I didn't want to buy a boat which would progressively fall apart under my feet at 20 years of age.

As we now 24 years later are looking for our retirement boat, I am using the same criteria as I ecpect to own her into my mid 80s . It doesn't scare me to have at that point a 30-40 year old boat I have narrowed our choices to three boats and am waiting for the best deal . Our qualities are the same though I want something in the 43-47 range with weight and displacement as well as tankage.

Really people buy boats for many reasons and have different criteria ( like cars) . Only some care about price. Very few I believe expect that it will increase in value before the 20 year mark. There is a huge depreciation hit after the first 5-7 years. 
Because different people have different criteria on why they purchase it's hard to generalize about a " right way" to buy for everyone .


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Arcb said:


> I agree buying a boat that you need two years to make seaworthy and expect to get your money back out of is not a good move.
> 
> When I buy a boat, I better be able to sail it 300 or 400 miles home with no work and no concerns. I want the sails to be serviceable while I find sail makers to fix me up with what I want, the engine has to run well. I see no connection between seaworthiness and electronics what so ever, they are a labour saving device, nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> ...


I could Quote and comment on just about every post and mostly be in agreement, so I chose this one, the value of a true 90% fixer upper I think is seldom there, currently there is a Hughes 38 that is being fixed up by a current new poster that may be the exception but then again its probably not a 90% project. When I last bought I contracted on the hard, launched, did all the incidentals bought some fresh flares and PFDs and took her down the bay 120 miles in two days. If you can't do at least then you narrow your available buying pool, there is no way I would take on a long distance project and frankly didn't explore the available options locally as much as I could have but that's a different point.
So in agreement; seaworthy and safe, the rest will come, I've never bought a new Boat so I have enjoyed the comments about sorting out a brand new Boat, something the production guys Hunter,Catalina are just going to be better at but not necessarily immune to. There will always be financially motivated decisions made in construction.
Oh and the only nav tool we had was GOOGLE maps on my cell phone. Charts and old fashioned dead reckoning of course but no GPS screen every minute.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> I have narrowed our choices to three boats and am waiting for the best deal . Our qualities are the same though I want something in the 43-47 range with weight and displacement as well as tankage.


What three boats if you don't mind sharing?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Speaking of getting in over your head with a multi-year project boat, has anyone heard from this guy? He bought his bargain boat over 3 years ago, but I don't recall hearing of him ever being able to take it out:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cal/105521-looking-past-present-owners-1970-through-73-cal-27s.html


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## ianjoub (Aug 3, 2014)

Morild said:


> You sent an email to get a rough quote for a multi-million dollar semi-custom boat?
> 
> :|


Also, I have to ask:

Are you surprised that someone on here is looking and can afford such a thing or do you think it was bad form to ask the builder for prices (via email)?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

davidpm said:


> What three boats if you don't mind sharing?


Mason 44
Bristol 45.5
Hans Christian Cristina 43

Halber Rassey 42 though I would want to change out the Volvo


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## Uricanejack (Nov 17, 2012)

chef2sail said:


> I agree with this. It's doesn't make sense to me that boats increase in value back to their original list prices taking into account the huge initial depreciation. Especially production style boats. Some boats like Catalina's may hold their value better than others because of a brand loyalty and people buying larger models of the same builder ( again Catalina as the example) .
> 
> I bought Haleakula a C&C 35 MKIII a 1983 in 1993. She is now 34 years old. I have spend more money on her total than the price I paid for her when I bought her. Constant maintainence and improvements require that. Because of her initial build quality the major overhauls really don't exist. Upgrades on electrical, electronics have happened. New canvas, cushions etc have occurred. I wouldn't say this boat increased in value, but has maintained its value over the last 10 years. She was not a project boat when I got her, but there are always projects in the 24 years I have owned her.
> 
> ...


+ 1
I have one of those for much the same reasons. It was 30 year old when I bought it. I am happy with her. I enjoy sailing her. She was old, but worked. and still works. 
Value? its a boat. If I cared about the value I wouldn't have bought one.
The Value is the sailing


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## bruc (Jan 23, 2017)

If selling I would query soldboats data and ask at least 20% above what other comps are going for. No sense leaving money on the table. If buying I would query the same to get a basic idea, then hire a surveyor to pin down a realistic price range. If yacht is with a broker, it will list at 10% higher than the top end of an appraised range, since that is their commission. If I really really love the boat, then I would pay 5k more than the top end of the appraised range, which might leave the agent or owner a bit short (shocking). The point I guess is that yacht valuation is a fairly complex issue with lots of ebb and flow. A lot of it comes down to what it is, where it is, and the month it is offered. Personally I think there are legions of over priced yachts, and very few or zero underpriced ones. What one sees listed is rarely what is paid. For these reasons I think it would be hard to confirm that boats are retaining value. The real numbers and neither cheap nor easy to come by.


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## Towguy (May 8, 2016)

TakeFive said:


> Speaking of getting in over your head with a multi-year project boat, has anyone heard from this guy? He bought his bargain boat over 3 years ago, but I don't recall hearing of him ever being able to take it out:
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cal/105521-looking-past-present-owners-1970-through-73-cal-27s.html


I just finished reading thru this whole thread..intresting the over thinking and different opinions on which direction to go ..also the amount of work and expense involved in a " bargain" boat is questionable , when it needs everything. I am hoping for the best for my s27.9 it was fully operational ,racing boat ..till the mast broke,or a stay that is ,need a mast... Also intrested if those boats in the thread got in the water........ Ralph


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

TakeFive said:


> Speaking of getting in over your head with a multi-year project boat, has anyone heard from this guy? He bought his bargain boat over 3 years ago, but I don't recall hearing of him ever being able to take it out:
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cal/105521-looking-past-present-owners-1970-through-73-cal-27s.html


I read through the first couple of pages, it certainly does appear this individual was in over his head, but he likely would have been in over his head regardless of what he bought.

If somebody like the OP in the thread you shared decided to skip small boat ownership and skip sailing lessons entirely and go straight for an older 27' cruising sailboat, that isn't a reflection on the value of older boats.

I have seen quite a few unsuccesful cruisers in old boats and new boats, big boats and small who never make it more than 20 miles from port. Folks with 5 and 10 year plans, frequently the problem doesn't seem to be getting the boat ready, the issue seems to be financial crunch, time crunch and the reality of spending significant time in isolation on a boat in dicey places/conditions just isn't what they thought.

The folks that learn these lessons on $10k or $15k boats, are in many ways, a lot further ahead than the folks who learn it isn't for them on $100k boats.

I have actually known people who were essentially trapped on larger more expensive boats, they can't sell the boats for what they have put into them, they can't move ahead because the lifestyle isn't for them and they wind up living on these boats at dock, or having it as a large unused expense.

Very few people who are making at least $50k or $60k a year couldn't afford to walk away from a $10k boat if they had to, but if they owe the bank $80k on the boat, walking away gets a little more complicated.

The most content boat owners I know are those who are realistic about what they can afford and realistic about how they intend to use their boats.

Edit: I was at the Toronto Boat Show this week end, and even for several hundred thousand dollars, I didn't see a single new boat, as equipped at the boat show, that I would trust as much as my 37 year old boat in tough coastal conditions in her current condition, so that's an issue too.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

One of the ways to see a better "return" on your boat investment is to hold and sail your boat over a long period. That way you get to enjoy all those upgrades and their cost is spread out over years of use. 

We've had our boat eight years and have done a lot more upgrades than typical because of how we use her. 

That return should only get better over the next eight to ten years if I can avoid a case of "bigger boat-itis"


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

If you want a "return" on your boat get a boat that you can sail and use, not a "project". I have a friend who just spent 7 years working on his 1985 boat. I asked how much he has spent and it turns out he has spent more than I have on my 2001 boat. He says yeah but his has new ZZZ, XXX, and YYY. But in the end the bones of his boat is still a 1985 boat and it shows and all that money far as I'm concerned was a waste. In the end he spent 7 years working on his boat and I spent 7 years using mine and even though we both have the same amount of money in our boats mine is still worth a lot more than his.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Don0190 said:


> If you want a "return" on your boat get a boat that you can sail and use, not a "project". I have a friend who just spent 7 years working on his 1985 boat. I asked how much he has spent and it turns out he has spent more than I have on my 2001 boat. He says yeah but his has new ZZZ, XXX, and YYY. But in the end the bones of his boat is still a 1985 boat and it shows and all that money far as I'm concerned was a waste. In the end he spent 7 years working on his boat and I spent 7 years using mine and even though we both have the same amount of money in our boats mine is still worth a lot more than his.


This statement makes sense as long as people understand that not all 2001's are usable and not all 1985's are project boats.

I am sure there are lots of members on this forum who have boats from the 70's and 80's that could head out on a coastal cruise with no more than a weeks notice (from a boat maintenance perspective).


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## Uricanejack (Nov 17, 2012)

I have a what I consider to be a "nice 30+ yr old boat". other people might not. They might call it a project. I could come up with all sorts of projects.
Or I could go sailing tomorrow. The weeks cruise might wait a bit till it warms up. Or I could take a heavier sleeping bag and a warm sweater.

I did not by it to sail around the world. I am happy just going around the Island or the bay. It does the job just fine.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> Mason 44
> Bristol 45.5
> Hans Christian Cristina 43
> 
> Halber Rassey 42 though I would want to change out the Volvo


Thanks for that.

Of course, the next question is why.

I know they are all great boats but I'm wondering what specifically made these three jump to the top of the list.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

davidpm said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> Of course, the next question is why.
> 
> I know they are all great boats but I'm wondering what specifically made these three jump to the top of the list.


We spent a couple of years looking and comparing till we narrowed to these 3(4). We have sailed on them also.

Here are some of the considerations not in a particular order

Build quality
Tankage
Storage
Sea kindness
Sailing ability 
Living space - how we live 
Displacement 
Sailplan 
Accessibility to engine
Deck safety
Motoring ability
Like ability

There are others. Every boat is a trade off. These got our bill and the sailing we will continue to do

Everyone has their own personal criteria, these fit ours


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I think trying to come up "factors" for boats in order to find the "one" is just way to make you crazy.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Don0190 said:


> I think trying to come up "factors" for boats in order to find the "one" is just way to make you crazy.


I guess you should just blindfold yourself spin around in a boatyard and pick the first boat you touch. That way you won't be crazy

We all have "reasons" why we choose the boats we do. I don't think Davids question or my answer were out of line. Nor do I think it drove me crazy. Comments without rhyme or reason except negativity....now that drives me crazy😄😄😄🐜


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## eko_eko (Sep 7, 2012)

Arcb said:


> I am sure there are lots of members on this forum who have boats from the 70's and 80's that could head out on a coastal cruise with no more than a weeks notice (from a boat maintenance perspective).


Sure, but that's because we sail them. I can take my 43-year-old boat out into the Atlantic on any weekend with decent weather. If not, I wouldn't own the boat!

I think "total years not sailed" might be a better measure of boat "age" than the actual number of years between the date of manufacture and today.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> I guess you should just blindfold yourself spin around in a boatyard and pick the first boat you touch. That way you won't be crazy


Be real, you know you are doing a knee jerk all or nothing reaction post!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Don0190 said:


> Be real, you know you are doing a knee jerk all or nothing reaction post!


Totally real here my friend

I repeat

We all have "reasons" why we choose the boats we do. I don't think Davids question or my answer were out of line. Nor do I think it drove me crazy. Comments without rhyme or reason except negativity....now that drives me crazy😄😄😄🐜

BTW David and I have met and his question to me and the answer were well within norms . He is very knowledgeable. I have never known him to ask a silly question . I assumed it was with merit, that why I answered it.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

night0wl said:


> It probably comes down to the availability of financing. Boats that are less than 20 years old can still be financed by a bank with a standard boat loan. That makes the market of available customers broader, and therefore the prices stay higher.


I think this is where the big price drop hits. Once you can't finance without having to have perfect credit and a house that almost all paid off to use a collateral. Once the average Joe can no longer get financed you loose a lot of market and the price drops big time. Once you are looking at only cash buyers you have less room to push someone to perhaps a bigger or more expensive boat than they would have otherwise bought.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

davidpm said:


> What are some of the most common recommendations on the new sailboats.


Old or new, the vast majority of recommendations involve electricity, particulary on euro built boats.
Many issues with propane systems. If it's a euroboat I also point out the very common NPT brass throughulls on NPT plated brass ball valves.

It's not really part of a surveyors job to criticize engineering or design but once in a while I find a rudder tube support design so weak I feel I have to mention it or an area of a hull that is so thin I can flex it by hand pressure, it must be mentioned.


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## lbkeck (Nov 5, 2021)

krisscross said:


> I have been browsing boats for sale for over a year now as I'm getting closer to buying my first 'big' boat. Not pretending to be scientific here, but it seems like good used boats hold their price fairly well. However, there is a glut of substandard, neglected boats on the market, and their asking prices are often totally unrealistic. Hidden here and there are real diamonds in the rough (all others are just rough).


A reliable marine surveyot is your only protection. Going through a Broket/Dealer for a purchase is another sound plan for buyer protection.
Don't commit to a purchase without both or you will be sorry


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Are there any classic boats... which are so desirable for whatever reason... they appreciate in value? Think of the Model T Ford.


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