# Sailboat Insurance



## Advocate777 (Sep 28, 2010)

Can anyone recommend any particular insurance companies they like or use for boat insurance on east coast USA?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I don't think a random reference is a good way to sort out an insurance provider. Circumstances can be very unique and most boaters have very little knowledge of their policy, other than how cheap/costly it is. 

You need a good, local, knowledgeable agent/broker who represents several carriers and can compare and contrast coverages for you. Cheapest is usually cheapest for a reason. That reason may work for you, it may not. Get solid advice, not random references.


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

Advocate777 said:


> Can anyone recommend any particular insurance companies they like or use for boat insurance on east coast USA?


I'd also like to hear anyone's recommendations for an insurance company that they've had first hand experience with - good or bad.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

for some thirteen years, I've been very happy with insurance thru BoatUS.


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## Multihullgirl (Dec 2, 2010)

So far, so good, Seaworthy


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## bvander66 (Sep 30, 2007)

IMIS, Al Gordon is a sailor who brokers, long experiance and provide good avice on coverage to meet your needs,


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## THEFRENCHA (Jan 26, 2003)

Progressive on line insurance Good prices and prompt support


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have had coverage with BoatUS for over 30 years. I have gotten quotes from other companies quite a few times during those years and compared pricing and coverage. None have offered significantly less expensive prices for the amount of coverage and most companies have been more expensive or had significantly less coverage. 

I have had several claims with Boat US and they have handled the claims extremely well, with prompt and comprehensive service as well as 'perks' such as being able to buy additinal items at wholesale when rebuilding after a claim. (For example, my boat was hit by lightning. We had the whole boat apart and so it was a good opportunity to replace the plumbing. They sold me all of the hoses and fittings at a greatly reduced price.) 

I have also assisted quite a few people with claims with other companies. While some offered similar levels of dilligence and fairness, most have not and many of the big names don't really understand marine claims so their price may seem cheap, but recovering for the repairs was way less than comprehensive. (For example, a friend's boat filled with water and flooded over his battery charger, monitor, and alternator amoungst other things. They all worked once the boat was dried out, but failed within months of the sinking. His insurance company fought him on that since the components were operational when the initially dried out. I don't believe that a dedicated marine insurance company would have fought that.) 

I have heard that BoatUS does have shortcomings if you are doing prolonged offshore cruising, but I don't know whether that is true or not. 

Jeff


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

JeffH has given a good suggestion of what to get. I'll make a suggestion of what NOT to get.

Do not go to an agent or insurer who does mostly home and auto. They may write you a policy, and they may give you a good price. But they will likely leave out key coverages, like environmental damage, which can run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. BoatUS has this in all their policies ($854k or somesuch). I called to ask my State Farm agent about this omission in their policy, and they basically said, "What's environmental damage?"

Another one that could catch you is salvage and recovery costs. Some policies cap your maximum payout for salvage+loss at your boat's agreed value. In other words, if your boat's agreed value is $15,000 but it cost $10,000 to salvage it, you'll get $5000 (less deductible) for it and $10,000 will go to the salvage costs. You want a policy that will pay you the full agreed value of your boat if it's a total loss, and then pay additional money to cover any salvage/recovery costs.

Bottom line - you need to get someone who knows boats. A household insurance agent who does boats on the side will be clueless about these things.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Consequential damage coverage is one of the most important to have, most difficult to find and least likely for a novice to even know what it means.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Al Golden's folks at IMIS.

They are professionals who have been in business a long time. They won't try to lowball you, and they'll be glad to explain the details and options that can make a cheaper policy a mistake. Or not.

Going on 25 years or so I've never heard anyone complaining, much less screaming, except in their praise.


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## Advocate777 (Sep 28, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I don't think a random reference is a good way to sort out an insurance provider. Circumstances can be very unique and most boaters have very little knowledge of their policy, other than how cheap/costly it is.
> 
> You need a good, local, knowledgeable agent/broker who represents several carriers and can compare and contrast coverages for you. Cheapest is usually cheapest for a reason. That reason may work for you, it may not. Get solid advice, not random references.


Thanks for your input, Minnewaska, but this forum has alot of folks with very valuable references and recommendations. So, asking for specific providers is very helpful for me as a place to start and i dont consider them random references. As for most boaters having very little knowledge of their policy, I am an attorney and I have been taught how to read and understand a policy. So, you didnt mention what insurer you use but I would value your reference and not consider it random in the least. I dont know anything about boat insurance so references are a great place for me to start and to begin reasearching it.


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## Advocate777 (Sep 28, 2010)

Jeff_H said:


> I have had coverage with BoatUS for over 30 years. I have gotten quotes from other companies quite a few times during those years and compared pricing and coverage. None have offered significantly less expensive prices for the amount of coverage and most companies have been more expensive or had significantly less coverage.
> 
> I have had several claims with Boat US and they have handled the claims extremely well, with prompt and comprehensive service as well as 'perks' such as being able to buy additinal items at wholesale when rebuilding after a claim. (For example, my boat was hit by lightning. We had the whole boat apart and so it was a good opportunity to replace the plumbing. They sold me all of the hoses and fittings at a greatly reduced price.)
> 
> ...


Thanks Jeff- I'm gonna call BoatUS and start learning about it -- maybe i'll post a question in the next few months about specific types of coverage, etc. I'm getting close to taking the plunge. I looked at the boats you had recommended awhile back and they all are definitely better sailing vessels than what I am looking at. You guessed it.... (I can see you smile and shake your head)....I want a big, fat tub of a boat that I can eventually live on for a few years after I learn to operate it..(notice I didn't say 'sail it' - ha-ha...you get where this is going?) It will be big enough for me and my wife to handle but also live comfortably in with its 12-foot beam...motor down the ICW to s. florida, keys..then across the Gulf to the bahamas and eventually, with confidence..south to D.R. and Virgin islands....that's right, a used IP35. I'm sure I'll do alot of motoring on the Chesapeake on it - built for comfort, not for speed.


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Consequential damage coverage is one of the most important to have, most difficult to find and least likely for a novice to even know what it means.


So who do you have coverage with? How long have you used them? How many claims have you filed? How good we're they at handling the claim process?


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## Anchorbend (Aug 27, 2013)

I've had Boat U.S. for 20 years but never have had a claim. They are the only one I could find that would cover my boat if left in the water over the winter for damage due to freezing, as long as the boat is bubbled. Other than that they will insure for agreed upon value.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Shopping insurance again. Unfortunately what Jeff said is correct. Very limited market of venders if you actually doing cruising that includes foreign countries. For that purpose Boat US is not a good vender. 
What surprises me is that with climate change our hurricane/storm patterns changed. But hurricane season and the hurricane zone has not when you are speaking of insurance. 
I think this results in a increase in potentially unsafe passages. I would sooner prefer a given passage to be "blessed" by a weather router as a insurance requirement then the current situation creating thundering herds taking to the water twice a year. I would note in other industries this occurs. Last night spoke with a contractor who told me they can't start a roof until cleared for weather by the insurance company.


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## bvander66 (Sep 30, 2007)

Recently got a quote from boatus which was $1500 more than my present company with less coverage.


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## 4arch (Jul 7, 2009)

I will second the recommendations to look at IMIS. I am always able to call or e-mail directly to the agent who handles my policy whenever a question or issue pops up. I usually get a response within one business day, if not sooner. Their prices are reasonable - not the cheapest and not the most expensive.



outbound said:


> What surprises me is that with climate change our hurricane/storm patterns changed. But hurricane season and the hurricane zone has not when you are speaking of insurance.
> I think this results in a increase in potentially unsafe passages. I would sooner prefer a given passage to be "blessed" by a weather router as a insurance requirement then the current situation creating thundering herds taking to the water twice a year. I would note in other industries this occurs. Last night spoke with a contractor who told me they can't start a roof until cleared for weather by the insurance company.


I agree with your assessment but not necessarily your solution. I've always found it odd that north Florida is in the hurricane zone and the Carolinas (especially North) are not. No hurricane has made landfall north of Vero Beach, FL and south of the Georgia-SC line in more than 30 years. By contrast, the Outer Banks seem to get repeatedly walloped every few years yet they are considered in the "safe zone". Beyond the zoning creating a herd mentality, which I believe was never an intentional consequence, it also may end up creating a false sense of security for those keeping boats in the "safe zones" - as it did for people who lost boats in Sandy.

But the number of boats that venture offshore is tiny and I assume the insurance payouts to owners of boats lost on passage in storms is a pittance compared to claims related to damage at the dock. Having every passage "blessed" by a router could create another false sense of security as routers have been known to make mistakes. I don't see the safety benefits of having the situation even more tightly controlled by the insurance companies than it is now. It may reduce the overall risk to which the insurers would expose themselves, but having skippers not fully in control of the decision making on board seems less safe on a per boat basis. I'm also not sure the routers would want the potential added liability. Plus, where do you draw the line on this? Does every hop from FL to the Bahamas need a blessing? If you have a crew member who misses a flight and pushes departure back by a day do you have to re-initiate the whole process with the router/insurance company?

Maybe better than having individual passages blessed would be to scrap the entire zones/seasons approach entirely and just have every boater file an emergency preparedness plan with the insurer that would outline where/how weather information is being obtained with storm plans for in port, coastal cruising, passagemaking, etc.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

I know this has been hashed back and forth many times here, but Mini and I agree on this. I've been using the same maritime specialty insurance agent now for many years. That agency places my policy with different companies depending on their experiences with other clients and costs annually. When something changes, like I decide to go offshore someplace or beyond prescribed navigational limits, I call them and get a binder in place in minutes. If I'm going to have a crew deliver it, same deal. If I want to extend the season, same deal. We haven't had claims, but know of people who have and they've been great advocates.

I'm not sure this is the cheapest way, but it's the way that makes us comfortable. At least someplace there is a real person who knows me. YMMV.

And sorry not to answer the OP's original questions, but I'd have to look in my files to see where they placed me this year...as I don't even think about it.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

4arch
You make very good points and I have to agree with you that perhaps I didn't think this through. However to my mind a passage is a journey off the continental shelf involving more than 5 days of sailing.
The variance in hurricane plans is such that only after the experience can the boat owner judge if it was adequate. Perhaps if yards were reviewed by some profession certifying group and insurance companies accepted that certification as proof of decreased risk premiums could be decreased.
You are right few boats cruise. However would note the boats that cruise tend to be in the 40-60' range with considerable value and expensive systems ( Electronics,AP, water makers, central heat/air etc.). Where I left the to come home for the holidays I would guess most boats are in the $500-1.5m range. So the insurance companies are at risk for considerable sums.


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## jvlassak (Oct 1, 2009)

Cape, would you mind sharing the name of the insurance agency you are working with? I've been working with an agency for a few years, but they don't have a policy that covers consequential damage - a serious drawback in my mind - and I am shopping around for alternatives. It'd be much appreciated!


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## CLOSECALL (Dec 11, 2012)

Back to the OP's question, I like Progressive. My other insurer is USAA and they referred me to Progressive since they didn't handle marine insurance.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

jvlassak said:


> Cape, would you mind sharing the name of the insurance agency you are working with? I've been working with an agency for a few years, but they don't have a policy that covers consequential damage - a serious drawback in my mind - and I am shopping around for alternatives. It'd be much appreciated!


PM sent


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

TakeFive said:


> JeffH has given a good suggestion of what to get. I'll make a suggestion of what NOT to get.
> 
> Do not go to an agent or insurer who does mostly home and auto. They may write you a policy, and they may give you a good price. But they will likely leave out key coverages, like environmental damage, which can run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. BoatUS has this in all their policies ($854k or somesuch). I called to ask my State Farm agent about this omission in their policy, and they basically said, "What's environmental damage?"...


I agree. When I first called our homeowner's insurance company five or so years ago to inquire what worried me most was the questions they didn't ask about the boat and my cruising area and still gave me a quote. I wasn't confident that should I have a claim they would honor it due to their lack of experience with boats.

Recently when I happened to ask again when changing car insurers, the agent flat out said to not use them for the boat as it would be expensive and they don't insure many boats.

Our homeowners insurance did cover our 22 footer under our home policy but I figured any damage would be minor and I wouldn't file a claim anyway.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

bvander66 said:


> IMIS, Al Gordon is a sailor who brokers, long experiance and provide good avice on coverage to meet your needs,





hellosailor said:


> Al Golden's folks at IMIS.


I'm a huge fan of IMIS. Al, his son Gary, and their agents are outstanding. They have placed my policy with Markel for years, and helped tremendously from time to time.

I'm a big Boat/US fan, and did use their insurance cover on a previous boat. They simply aren't set up for cruisers or for bigger boats.

Everything else I own is insured by USAA. They are one of the best insurance companies in the world. They cover lots of trailerable sail and power boats. They are not the right folks for larger boats, or any boats covering large distances.



Anchorbend said:


> I've had Boat U.S. for 20 years but never have had a claim. They are the only one I could find that would cover my boat if left in the water over the winter for damage due to freezing, as long as the boat is bubbled. Other than that they will insure for agreed upon value.


An interesting requirement as, except for slab-sided boats, bubblers do more to protect docks and pilings than boats.



outbound said:


> I think this results in a increase in potentially unsafe passages. I would sooner prefer a given passage to be "blessed" by a weather router as a insurance requirement then the current situation creating thundering herds taking to the water twice a year. I would note in other industries this occurs. Last night spoke with a contractor who told me they can't start a roof until cleared for weather by the insurance company.


I understand your motivation, but who decides who a weather router is? Herb Hilgenberg and Chris Parker are talented amateurs - no professional credentials. Who decides who a weather router is?


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Erie Insurance Exchange has covered me for more than 40 years, very low premium, no seasonal sailing restrictions, no Florida exclusion, excellent service. About 30 percent lower than Boat US and Progressive.

Good luck,

Gary


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

travlineasy said:


> Erie Insurance Exchange has covered me for more than 40 years, very low premium, no seasonal sailing restrictions, no Florida exclusion, excellent service. About 30 percent lower than Boat US and Progressive.
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> Gary


Can you discuss their performance handling specific claims that either you've made with them or that you have first hand knowledge of?

It's one thing to offer "great coverage" on paper but often a company fails when handling actual claims...just asking - thanks.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

malyea said:


> Can you discuss their performance handling specific claims that either you've made with them or that you have first hand knowledge of?
> 
> It's one thing to offer "great coverage" on paper but often a company fails when handling actual claims...just asking - thanks.


Two years ago, while at the only fuel dock in Deale, Maryland, a 47-foot Egg Harbor sport fishermen backed into the dock perpendicular to the dock I was at. He was very impatient, and backed in so fast that I thought he would broadside me. He stopped with 4 feet of my gunwale by shoving his big twin diesels in forward and goosing the throttle. Black smoke belched into my cockpit and I was engulfed in the diesel fumes. I don't think he would have stopped if I had not yelled at him.

He was taking on 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel, and made it clear to the dock lady that he was in a hurry. I was taking on 20 gallons of gasoline and was finished before he got the nozzles in his tanks. The wind was blowing at about 25 down the creek which would have blown me toward him. I asked him to hold me off with his boat hook if I started to drift toward him, to he grumbled that he would.

What neither of us noticed was that when he backed up so close to me, his outriggers were at least 10 feet within my shrouds and backstay. When I began backing out of the fuel dock, I noticed that the boat felt a bit sluggish. Then, BANG, the center outrigger broke in half, his port outrigger was bent at a 20 degree angle. He screamed obscenities at me at the top of his lungs, then yelled I hope you have insurance. I yelled back, "I hope you do as well - it was your fault for backing in too close to me." We exchanged insurance information, I called my Erie agent, and she took care of the rest. Two months later I got a call from an Erie Claim's Investigator, whom claimed that the guy with the fishing boat said it was all my fault, and the other guys on his boat collaborated his lies. While the dock lady confirmed my story, Erie said it was only my and her word against the six guys on the fishing boat and that they would have to pay the claim, which they to the tune of $6,000, which was ridiculous for the amount of damage.

I figured that my insurance premium would increase as a result of Erie having to pay out, but it did not increase one cent. This was the only insurance claim, or accident I've ever had in more than a half century of boating. And, the only claim I've made in 40 years of dealing with Erie Insurance Exchange.

Cheers,

Gary


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

Thanks Gary


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Advocate777 said:


> Thanks Jeff- I looked at the boats you had recommended awhile back and they all are definitely better sailing vessels than what I am looking at. You guessed it.... (*I can see you smile and shake your head*)....I want a big, fat tub of a boat that I can eventually live on for a few years after I learn to operate it..(notice I didn't say 'sail it' - ha-ha...you get where this is going?) It will be big enough for me and my wife to handle but also live comfortably in with its 12-foot beam...motor down the ICW to s. florida, keys..then across the Gulf to the bahamas and eventually, with confidence..south to D.R. and Virgin islands....that's right, a used IP35. I'm sure I'll do alot of motoring on the Chesapeake on it - built for comfort, not for speed.


I assure you that I did not shake my head. I think because I have strong opinions, people think that I must be very judgmental about their choices. In reality, I may think that an I.P. 35 would make a very poor of a boat to learn to sail on, or to do what you plan to do, but I also understand that people choose boats for all kinds of reasons, and it does not matter what I think, this is your boat, and that there are a wide range of ways to enjoy the water. So if you enjoy owning the Island Packet 35 that is what counts. No shake of the head to it.

I also want to comment on Erie Insurance. Erie is a perfect example of a good insurance company for cars and homes but not a very good company for boats. I have used Erie for many years now for my business, house and cars, they have handled the few claims that I have very professionally, fairly, and promptly.

Because of that, over the years, I have had quite a few quotes from them for my boat insurance. I have also been involved in a claim with a boat (not my boat) insured by Erie. Erie's initial quotes for premiums were not too bad, typically around the same price or slightly less than BoatUs, and appear to be especially competitive if you have other insurance with them. But their coverage was very incomplete when compared line item by line with my BoatUS policies. During the various instances when I have tried to get apples to apples pricing, there were some items they would not cover, (for example fines for environmental damage in a grounding or sinking) and when they got as close as they could to parity with the policy I was looking for, they were substantially more expensive than BoatUS.

In the claim that I was aware of with Erie, there was a constant battle to get the adjuster to understand how things work in a collision on a boat. In this case, it was a collision between two boats. The boat that belonged to my friend was hit by a port tacker while he was on starboard tack. The impact bent over two stanchions and tore out a piece of the deck and rail, sheered a long swatch out of the jib, and bent the center of jib sheet lead track, tearing some of the bolts out of the deck. Erie was not bad on the items near the point of impact, but the tension on the lifelines pulled the bow pulpit apart and the stern rail sheered through the deck. It was a real battle to get them to pay for this damage which they claimed was away from the point of impact and therefore not a part of the claim. This despite the fact that their own surveyor was agreeing this was damage from the collision.

Jeff


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Advocate777 said:


> I want a big, fat tub of a boat that I can eventually live on for a few years after I learn to operate it..(notice I didn't say 'sail it' - ha-ha...you get where this is going?) It will be big enough for me and my wife to handle but also live comfortably in with its 12-foot beam...motor down the ICW to s. florida, keys..then across the Gulf to the bahamas and eventually, with confidence..south to D.R. and Virgin islands....that's right, a used IP35. I'm sure I'll do alot of motoring on the Chesapeake on it - built for comfort, not for speed.


Hey, I resemble that remark! Though the beam is 13-feet - not 12 on my Morgan 33 Out Island. 

Cheers,

Gary


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

Jeff_H said:


> I have heard that BoatUS does have shortcomings if you are doing prolonged offshore cruising, but I don't know whether that is true or not.
> 
> Jeff


I too have Boat US and so far have been happy w/ them. When I bought the boat and needed to move it to the Chesapeake they gave me a rider that covered me for the coastal waters. When I went outside the Bay this fall, same thing. I can basically go from the GA/FL line all the way to Maine if I want w/ said rider. The PROBLEM is they won't cover me in Bermuda (once I get there) and more importantly they won't cover me for singlehanding TO Bermuda.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"and more importantly they won't cover me for singlehanding TO Bermuda. "

I'd be surprised if any insurer covered any solo offshore sailor AND really made good on a claim. Since there's this international legal point about "keeping a proper watch" and that simply can't be done once the solo sailor requires sleep. In 36 hours, or 48 hours, or however long it takes for the uppers to stop working.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I just checked my policy with Erie to see if there was some stipulation as to the distance offshore I could roam. The policy states "All coastal waters of the United States and all tributaries." There was no restriction as to how far offshore I could travel, so I put in a call to the insurance company to find out. They said they have to consult with someone in that section and get back to me with a solid answer. I'm guessing it's probably 50 miles, but not positive about this.

Cheers,

Gary


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Gary-
"There was no restriction as to how far offshore I could travel," Sure there is. Well, no, you can travel anywhere you please, but your policy only applies within "coastal" waters, and if you call our faithful servants in the State Department, I'm sure they'll be glad to help out with that.

"Coastal" probably means "not beyond the continental shelf", although it would seem to give the insurer lots of leeway in playing games with that term. It might be twelve miles, cannon range being "coastal" bombardment. Or perhaps the 200-mile economic influence zone, but I'll bet you a fruitcake (why does everyone rag on fruitcake?!) there are definitions of "coastal" to be found. And Bermuda? Ain't gonna fall under any of them, from the US.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Yeah, you're probably right about the EEZ being the outer limits of the coastal zone. Last time I checked, the EEZ (Exclusive Economic Zone) was 200 miles, which would include a lot of southern island nation, but I'm sure there are some restrictions there as well. The policies are pretty vague about some of this stuff.

Gary


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

My catlin policy is very specific on this and includes lat/long, exclusion dates etc. when policy was amended to allow more extensive cruising similar very specific language was used. ? Have you read the fine print?


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Sorry, duplicate post.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Yes, many times. There were no exclusion dates, no exclusion areas, no hurricane zone restrictions, but no definitive coastal limits specifications. Overall, a very clean, no nonsense policy that is pretty straight forward.

Gary


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Wow you're lucky. I lament that with so few carriers selling policies appropriate to the snow bird crowd it seems the insurance companies not the weather or common sense dictate your schedule.
I often wondered what the reality of claims made really is.
I suspect once off the shelf it's either total loss or no claim. Given total loss may likely include demise of the policy holder I would think policy holders would do everything in their power to avoid claims. Or simply not go hence not need that rider. They are more aware of the risks,more likely the boat is their major asset so one would suspect would be more diligent.
I would suspect for a variety of reasons ( inclusion of folks new to the life, less at risk both financially and personally, more traffic and hard edges etc.) policy holders in typical usage would have many more claims. Both when viewed in any time period or miles travelled. You can't run aground or hit a dock or hit another boat or have a mooring fail or anchor drag in the middle of the ocean.
Still transits are expensive and coastal almost reasonable. 
Similarly, percentage deductibles make no sense to me. I've been sailing 35 years with the typical 2 footitist. I've ( knock on wood) never had a claim. The bits that would break in a more common minor accident( bent stantions, small hull dings etc.) would cost the same on a big boat then a small. In fact I suspect a big boat is more likely to survive a more significant mishap than a lesser craft. However, the big boat deductible is a lot more money as it is a percentage of insured value rather than a fixed dollar amount.
These thoughts percolate in my brain every time I try to get into a slip with 2 feet of playroom in a strong crosswind and that million dollar yacht next to me.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> .....I often wondered what the reality of claims made really is.
> 
> I suspect once off the shelf it's either total loss or no claim. Given total loss may likely include demise of the policy holder.........


The vast majority of hull claims that I'm familiar with, including one weather related claim of my own while I was away, were partial losses. Mostly from impact, some from lightening strikes.

On the other hand, a simple sinking at the slip or hard grounding that causes flooding can total a boat. Clearly, both the boat and crew are easily recovered, but the amount of damage would be too great a percent of hull value, so the company just pays out and takes the hull for scrap.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

So Minnie are you agreeing with my thinking that coastal is more dangerous and with proportionally more claims? Even lightning is less common in open waters.


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## ccher (Jun 24, 2011)

I concur with Dave, S/V Auspicious, IMIS/Markel for the boat, USAA for everything else. Used to have BoatUS which has an excellent policy as well but I like having the more personal attention of the folks at IMIS.


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

outbound said:


> So Minnie are you agreeing with my thinking that coastal is more dangerous and with proportionally more claims? Even lightning is less common in open waters.


Heh. Exactly what I was thinking. Requiring people to stay in coastal waters "for safety" is like having auto insurance that's only good for 25 miles from home, where 90% of accidents occur.

Part of what's missing from these discussions is "what happens when those limitations are not in force". Does the whole policy get cancelled or are those incidents outside coverage just not covered, and when you return to "covered" territory, everything goes back to normal? In that latter case, well, you assume your own risk, cover your own repairs, and go anyway if the risk looks low enough.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Hellsop that's not just a hat holder on the top of your shoulders. Good on you. Problem is I was unable to get a straight answer from the broker and policy could read either way. Would need lawyer billable hours which I'm unwilling to do or try it and see what happens from what I can gather.


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## Rusty123 (Sep 28, 2012)

I've been a long-time happy customer of USAA for my home and vehicles. So naturally, when I purchased my (28 foot, Puget Sound cruising) sailboat a few years ago, I went with them again. USAA farms out their marine/RV policies to Progressive, so that's who actually issued the policy.

In reading this thread and others, I've seen a frequent mention that Progressive doesn't cover "Consequential Damages". But as I read my policy, it appears that they actually do. The "Exclusion" section lists a variety of losses which are not covered (wear and tear, insects, dock wear, mold and mildew, etc.), but in all cases, these exclusions do not apply to "the ensuing loss caused by consequential sinking, burning, explosion or collision of a covered watercraft".

Am I reading the policy wrong? Is it possible that my Progressive policy is different than the standard policy since it's issued through USAA? Are there other red flags I should look for other than consequential damages? (The cost of the policy is reasonable, and it seems to cover my needs, so unless there are major problems with it I'm not really looking to switch).


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Rusty123 said:


> ...Are there other red flags I should look for other than consequential damages? (The cost of the policy is reasonable, and it seems to cover my needs, so unless there are major problems with it I'm not really looking to switch).


Does it cover liability for environmental damage? How much?

Also, if your boat has to be salvaged and is declared a total loss, is the payment for loss+salvage capped at agreed value? Or will they pay you agreed value, and put up additional money to pay the salvage company? (If so, how much more?) Note that you can't just take the money and tell them not to salvage it. If it ends up wrecked on someone else's property, they will demand that you salvage the boat to get it off their property.


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## Rusty123 (Sep 28, 2012)

Environmental Damage: The declarations page says this: "Liability coverage ($300K in my case) includes bodily injury, property damage, and fuel spill liability". Is that the same thing?

Loss+Salvage: Limit of liability is agreed value plus 5%, unless wreckage removal is legally required, in which case limit of liability is agreed value plus 5%, plus reasonable salvage costs up to property damage liability ($300K).

Keep the questions coming - this is exactly what I'm looking for.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Rusty, you should give the person who sold you the policy a call and they should enthusiastically answer all your questions, both those where you have superior coverage and where the holes are in your policy. If they can't or won't do that, you have the wrong company. USAA was just the broker/agent for Progressive in your case.


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## Rusty123 (Sep 28, 2012)

There wasn't a specific person involved - all transactions were all online.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Rusty123 said:


> There wasn't a specific person involved - all transactions were all online.


Exactly. You're not with the right service provider then, are you?


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## Rusty123 (Sep 28, 2012)

I'm not sure what you mean. I suppose it would be nice to have an agent or broker that I could sit down with and have a chat, but I'm not sure that's worth paying for. (To me),

30 years of home and auto coverage without anyone to talk to, and no problems yet. Why would marine insurance be different?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

You don't pay more to use a local, knowledgeable agent. There is no way, for example, that you got a Progressive policy for any less than anyone could have sold it. The Progressives (ie carriers) don't want to compete against themselves. 

A personal relationship will pay off, especially if you have a claim. But for now, you should have someone who lays several policies in front of you, side by side. Online systems are very cost effective to the seller, but you're left doing leg work and taking a huge risk that you miss something. The least expensive is simply not always the best value. I do not by the cheapest policy, almost ever.

Last year, my carrier increased my premium by a few hundred dollars, which got my attention. I asked my agent to check around. He came back with a much less expensive policy, but it did not cover scratch damage at the dock from weather or other boaters. With painted topsides, that just wasn't worth the savings. Hurricane haul out coverage wasn't as good either. I stayed where I am.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Insurance policies will vary. Sometimes because your "old" one was renewed and the new ones offer different terms. Sometimes because state laws are different and impose different requirements. Sometimes...sure, USAA could bargain for different terms from Progressive.

Bottom line, you HAVE TO read the policy, and it is no accident that the policy has been typeset in a manner designed to make it hard to read. Ask any typesetter, they'll tell you sure, they can do better, but the clients want it to be hard to read. (Although many pretend they just want it to fit in less pages, to make the printing cheaper.)


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## Rusty123 (Sep 28, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> You don't pay more to use a local, knowledgeable agent. There is no way, for example, that you got a Progressive policy for any less than anyone could have sold it. The Progressives (ie carriers) don't want to compete against themselves.
> 
> A personal relationship will pay off, especially if you have a claim. But for now, you should have someone who lays several policies in front of you, side by side. Online systems are very cost effective to the seller, but you're left doing leg work and taking a huge risk that you miss something. The least expensive is simply not always the best value. I do not by the cheapest policy, almost ever.
> 
> Last year, my carrier increased my premium by a few hundred dollars, which got my attention. I asked my agent to check around. He came back with a much less expensive policy, but it did not cover scratch damage at the dock from weather or other boaters. With painted topsides, that just wasn't worth the savings. Hurricane haul out coverage wasn't as good either. I stayed where I am.


That makes good sense. I submitted a couple online quote requests yesterday (to Boat US and a couple broker/agents). Will see where that leads. Thanks.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Rusty123 said:


> That makes good sense. I submitted a couple online quote requests yesterday (to Boat US and a couple broker/agents). Will see where that leads. Thanks.


Unfortunately, you stepped into a trap. Understandable.

BoatUS is a broker/agent as well. Therefore, they are likely to use some of the same carriers as each other. Once one gets a quote on your boat, the other is forbidden from using that carrier as well. Again, the carriers don't want to compete against themselves or quote your boat several times. Makes is hard for an agent to compare policies, when they are blocked.

Probably too late now, but you are best off to find a good, local, knowledgeable marine agent and let them work for you.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> ....Sometimes...sure, USAA could bargain for different terms from Progressive......


I think this happens with life insurance, but very rarely with property. More likely a carrier only allows one broker to offer a policy that is missing some coverage and, therefore, is cheaper. Not apples to apples.


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> Exactly. You're not with the right service provider then, are you?


Only if you feel that *having* that human agent is absolutely essential for ... i don't know... reasons. I mean, so far every people have been asking about, Rusty's found was very likely covered in the text of the policy in front of him. So I'm not seeing how not having an agent to call to answer the question (instead of referring to the text) gains anything.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

hellsop said:


> Only if you feel that *having* that human agent is absolutely essential for ... i don't know... reasons. I mean, so far every people have been asking about, Rusty's found was very likely covered in the text of the policy in front of him. So I'm not seeing how not having an agent to call to answer the question (instead of referring to the text) gains anything.


If one is fully educated in all the text to look for, all the gotchas in insurance contracts, which carriers are good at paying claims and which aren't, well then, you don't need help.

On the other hand, one wouldn't need to ask a bunch of strangers on the internet either.

I stick by my recommendation to the mortals.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

hellsop said:


> Only if you feel that *having* that human agent is absolutely essential for ... i don't know... reasons. I mean, so far every people have been asking about, Rusty's found was very likely covered in the text of the policy in front of him. So I'm not seeing how not having an agent to call to answer the question (instead of referring to the text) gains anything.


If the text in the policy was sufficient to fully explain his coverage, then he wouldn't be asking a bunch of strangers on the Internet for explanations.

Minne's making the valid point that he would be much better off getting an agent to offer him several policies, and compare/contrast them, and respond to questions.

I think it's become a disturbing tendency that people are more trusting of anonymous "Internet experts" than they are of licensed insurance experts. Not at all uncommon, but still disturbing.


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## Rusty123 (Sep 28, 2012)

To be clear, the primary purpose of my posting is to identify the desirable features of a boat policy, particularly those features that are often missing in Progressive-type policies. The policy isn't really that confusing, but it doesn't list the features that it doesn't have. The advice to talk with an agent is logical, so that's what I'm planning to do.



TakeFive said:


> If the text in the policy was sufficient to fully explain his coverage, then he wouldn't be asking a bunch of strangers on the Internet for explanations.
> 
> Minne's making the valid point that he would be much better off getting an agent to offer him several policies, and compare/contrast them, and respond to questions.
> 
> I think it's become a disturbing tendency that people are more trusting of anonymous "Internet experts" than they are of licensed insurance experts. Not at all uncommon, but still disturbing.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Rusty123 said:


> To be clear, the primary purpose of my posting is to identify the desirable features of a boat policy, particularly those features that are often missing in Progressive-type policies. The policy isn't really that confusing, but it doesn't list the features that it doesn't have. The advice to talk with an agent is logical, so that's what I'm planning to do.


The other advice is to pick an agent that specializes in marine policies. Ask your usual home/auto guy about environmental damage and salvage costs, and he is likely to say "what's that?"


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sometimes, even the pros have a tough time wrestling an answer out of the carriers, some of which do not want to be pinned down, but rather make the call when the time comes. The contract language doesn't help.

For example, hurricane haul out coverage. I didn't go pull the exact language on my policy, but it covers half the costs of hauling and relaunching, if there is a named tropical storm watch/warning within 48hrs. If I wait until 48 hrs to haul, it will be too late. Our marina has a haul list and starts from top to bottom about 4 days out. If you pass on your spot, because its too early to know, you have to go to the bottom of the list. The bottom of the list almost never gets hauled in time. Secondly, the NWC has recently changed their naming protocol, although, I can't recall the specific change. Hurricane Sandy had something to do with it or, maybe was the first. It was actually Superstorm Sandy, not hurricane by the time it got here, if you recall, and technically didn't meet the definition in the policy.

So I ask my agent to work the carrier on two questions. Remember, getting the boat up on the hard is in both our interests. I save my boat and deductible, if there is damage, but they save potentially hundreds of thousands. They indeed want it out of the water and often send best practice advisories. 

First, what if the storm is predicted to cover our area, but this new naming thing has changed the label. Same storm they would have covered last year, but a technicality?

Second, if I actually haul 4 days in advance (which I've done three out of the last 5 or 6 years) and then we have a warning/watch inside those 48 hrs, will they still pay the earlier haul?

My agent was not able to get a straight answer from anyone. They all say they are interested in getting the boats out, but have to make that call in the moment. Indeed, my current carrier has paid on this several times, but won't give a straight answer or amend the policy anyway. Once, they wanted me to sign a release that said they were paying, but didn't have to. I refused. They paid anyway.

The point is, my agent has all this experience with the carriers and knows how they will behave. Read all you want, it's not the whole story.


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## Rusty123 (Sep 28, 2012)

Well, I received quotes back from IMIS (Seaworthy Yacht) and Boat US (National Liability and Fire Insurance). The premiums and coverage appear to be about the same. The only appreciable difference I can see is that the Boat US policy has a much lower deductible. I was pleasantly surprised to see that they were both substantially cheaper than my current Progressive policy (about half), for substantially better coverage (3 times higher coverage for oil spill, for example).

As advised, I forwarded the Boat US quote (and the Progressive coverage) to the contact at IMIS for comment.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Glad to hear you are getting competitive quotes. They typically only send very simple details, for which your broker will not be able to tell details, unless already familiar from past experiences. A possible example... is hull coverage an agreed upon value or market value. Does hull coverage apply for weather damage at the dock. The draft policy form is the only real way to know. Since your broker stands to lose the business to these other providers, they may not be interested in that amount of work. 

When I hear savings like "half", there is something wrong. Your old company may very well have been taking advantage. More often, the new one has a catch........ buried in the details.


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

I have been reading this thread because I'm finally about to get insurance on my boat since it just went in the water. Good information on the whole lot of it all. I'll have to find a local broker when my survey is completed. 

- Ronnie...on the geaux


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"When I hear savings like "half", there is something wrong. "
I'd generally agree with you. Little gotchas, like hurricane hauls that have to be done when it is already too late to do them, are a great way to promise coverage that can and will never be delivered.

But then again...I call around every once in a while to make sure my auto insurance coverage is competitive. Last time a large fraternal I belong to asked members to please call a certain name-brand insurer for a quote, I got a quote that was WAY more than twice what I'm paying now, to an equally respected (ahem) insurer. In that case I also know _part _of the extra is the generous "referral" fee that gets paid back to the fraternal.

I gave them a fairly blunt opinion about that.(G)


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

SailRedemption said:


> I have been reading this thread because I'm finally about to get insurance on my boat since it just went in the water. Good information on the whole lot of it all.


Agreed...lots of good information in this thread! A few additional tips are compiled here.


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## Rusty123 (Sep 28, 2012)

Well, I ended up purchasing a policy from Seaworthy, through IMIS. Coverage much better than Progressive (which I expected), but at a lower price (which I didn't expect). And it was really nice to work with a real person (at IMIS).


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## Advocate777 (Sep 28, 2010)

*Thank you from OP*

Thanks for the discussion -- i will call IMIS and BoatUS and get one.


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## chuck5499 (Aug 31, 2003)

you may also want to check with bill hodgens of yachtinsure. we bought our first and only boat, a brand new jeanneau ds40, and we were brand new boaters. we got turned down a lot but bill insured us. when we living in miami at the time and when we cut the dock lines we told bill and he worked with us on our curising area to keep the cost down but also worked with us to stay out of the hurricane area and cut our insurance in more than half. when we wanted to expand our cruising area bill workrd and got us a policy to match what we were doing at no additional cost. 

we did have a major claim when we got hit by lightening and no issues in paying it. 

we switched to imis when we headed to the med for a 2 handed crossing. they have also been very easy to deal with.


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## kramerica (Aug 30, 2014)

My new mooring agreement is requiring a 1 million of liability coverage ad progressive my current insurer does not offer it. does boat us offer this coverage? or am I missing something?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

kramerica said:


> My new mooring agreement is requiring a 1 million of liability coverage ad progressive my current insurer does not offer it. does boat us offer this coverage? or am I missing something?


Get an umbrella policy to extend your current auto, home, and boat policies to $1MM.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

What Take5 said. Sometimes your insurer will offer the umbrella coverage (I know, it seems dumb to make two policies instead of just upping the limits on the one) and sometimes you can simply buy it from another source. Which means two bills and two payments instead of one, but still satisfies the criteria.
If you have homeowners or rental insurance on your home, or auto insurance, that company probably offers an umbrella policy that will cover you as well. If all else fails, call a local broker.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Umbrella is a good idea, just be sure that marine liabilities are covered. Your marina is probably concerned with environmental coverage, for example, so be sure it is. Umbrellas also require a minimum amount of coverage on your primary policy, so you could find yourself increasing that to whatever they do offer as a max.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> Umbrella is a good idea, just be sure that marine liabilities are covered. Your marina is probably concerned with environmental coverage, for example, so be sure it is. Umbrellas also require a minimum amount of coverage on your primary policy, so you could find yourself increasing that to whatever they do offer as a max.


A typical umbrella will not cover environmental, but your boat policy should have environmental up close to $1MM, regardless of the the limit for other liability.

My umbrella starts at $100,000, and my BoatUS policy originally went up to $300,000. I had BoatUS lower it to $100,000 so I wasn't double-insured, and I pocketed the savings.


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