# buying a boat for the pacific northwest



## paul77 (Jul 5, 2007)

Hi There,

New to the sailnet community, seeking your sage advice and colored commentary on boat options for the pacific northwest.

I live in Seattle, currently charter regularly through a local club. I've sailed since I was a youngster, and in the seattle area since moving here, going on 7 years. In the past couple of years have started doing more cruising both here and the caribbean, california and I have had a shift in perspective on boat ownership (though I did own a hobie 16 for a while). Also helping this along is that my girlfriend loves to sail too 

Cruising goals - for the short term weekends and week long trips, within the sound, san juans. In the future maybe a longer trip in the future up to AK or down the coast.

Crew - Me and my girlfriend, in good shape. I'm 6'2, so I need something with headroom.

I'm looking for advice specifically on the right type of both for the northwest, and more generally on used boats in my range. I'm targeting a budget of $30,000/year for the total cost. This includes loan, insurance, moorage, taxes, maintenance, tax benefits. That puts me somewhere like $220-$275k for boat price. Ideally I'd love something that fit my cruising goals and was way under budget, so part of this is figuring out the right point. I'll be financing, with either 10% or 20% down depending on what makes sense.

I'm looking for a higher SA/D monohull >= 40', able to sail shorthanded, with good windward performance. I've had a bias towards newer boats, but I would really like to learn more about what would be involved on an older boat.

I've been looking since February, and I thought the right boat for me was a new Hanse 400. The local dealer (in Vancouver BC) does a lot of volume, so it seems a popular boat up here. 

I'm taking a step back from that choice though, after really thinking about how an aft cockpit will work in year round sailing. It's easy to forget with the nice weather we've been having lately, but it's freezing cold here a lot of the time and I usually put the autopilot on and hide under the dodger. From the boats in the marinas it seems a lot of people are fair weather sailors, but we want to be able to go out year round, otherwise we should just stick to chartering.

I've seen some nice center cockpit designs sail by with people looky comfy inside, that I don't recognize. I'm wondering if there isn't an older CC out there that could make me really happy.

I've sailed a Catalina 42 in the san juans over thanksgiving. It had a huge full bimini top/dodger, and it did not keep the wind off well enough.. I'd love to be able to do that trip in comfort. 

So I'm not convinced just putting a load of canvas and plastic on the back of an aft cockpit is going to work. What do you all think? Suck it up and get thicker gloves and a ski mask? An Amel?

Alternative boats I'm trying to research: Hylas 44, 45.5, 51, Tayana 48, 52,55, Moody 40,44. HR is overkill and too spendy. I have negative feelings towards Hunter & Catalina.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I like all those boats. 

Of interest to you, Camaraderie has a Tayana 52 which he and his wife cruised on for a while. It is now up for sale. Cam knows his stuff and I would vouch for his knowledge on boats and no doubt how he kept his boat up.

However, the shipping costs are going to be high from Annapolis (where I think the boat is). If nothing else, he would be a good resource for you.

Hope that helps. Good luck in your search.

- CD


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I would recommend that you look at a Nauticat pilothouse sailboat, like this one.

I do have a question for you: *Why are you looking at a boat >=40' in LOA? Is there a specific reason for doing so?*

How many people will be aboard typically? How many crew? How much experience do they all have? Given your limits on the annual costs, I doubt that you'll really want a boat 40'+ LOA... the mooring/dockage costs of a boat that long are considerable-since those costs are usually charged per foot. The maintenance, insurance and dockage/mooring costs all generally go up with the size of the boat.

Are you looking for a new boat, or a used boat? A new 40' boat is going to cost in the neighborhood of $200,000 or so. This doesn't account for any customization or modifications you might want to make to the boat.

Assuming a 40' sailboat, with a total purchase price of $200,000 and 18% down, and getting 15 year marine-mortgage at 8% APR, your monthyly payment for just the boat financing would be $1600 or $19,200. Dock costs are usually $130 per foot for a six-month season here in the New England area. Winter storage is about 2/3's that. Total storage costs are going to be about $8000. Insurance for that boat will probably be somewhere in the neighborhood of $2000-2500 or so for an Agreed Value policy. That doesn't leave a whole lot for maintenance costs or fuel or anything else, based on your annual budget of $30,000.


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## paul77 (Jul 5, 2007)

I did see Camraderie's boat on YW, and had seen his knowledge replies in other threads (hoping for one to my post.  ). 

I think if a Tayana 52 is in my future, it will have to be one where the owner has neglected it so I can get a good deal and con myself into all the upgrades later.


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## paul77 (Jul 5, 2007)

Hi SailingDog, thanks for the reply. 

I'm looking at that size for comfort and sailing performance. Originally I was looking at 37'+, but under 40' there are not a lot of boats that I have standing room in. A Beneteau 373 (or similar), or a Hunter 380 would fit me. I could definitely save money with one of those.

I've sailed boats from 25' to 47' in the sound, both cats and monohulls, and I feel this size fits the best. It would typically be just two people, but ideally we'd take one or two other couples with for trips. I've learned to not count on anyone else going if you want to go sailing and it turns out to be a rainy weekend.

I have a spreadsheet with the numbers worked out for all the things you note, so I have open eyes on this one. Including estimated maintenance of $300/month it puts that boat at $24,000/year or so. 

Dock costs here are $400/month for a 40', you can go higher or lower than that. $130 would be a a bargain  The sailing season is year round in the northwest, so there is no winter storage cost. 

The terms you quote for the loan are not as good as I can get from my credit union, and I would do 20 years to maximize my leverage. I'm including the tax advantages in my budgeting figures as it would qualify. The insurance cost is also higher than I have seen quoted for the hanse in specific.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Given the season and weather up there, and I spent enough time up there to know it well... I'd recommend you get a pilothouse sailboat. The Nauticats have a nice pilothouse sailboat. Be aware they also make a motorsailer, but that isn't what I'm talking about.


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## paul77 (Jul 5, 2007)

I've been on a nauticat, it was probably the 37 at the Seattle boat show in february. Perusing YW, the new ones are definitely spendy, and the used ones are all in europe (other than the motorsailor). The new one looks a lot like the wauqiuez pilothouse saloon.. (also more readily available in europe, but I think the smaller one doesn't have an interior helm).

Unlike a center cockpit though, the sail controls aren't accessible in the pilot house. This is fine for a long ocean voyage where you are on the same point of sail for a long time and want to stay out of the weather (and heck are probably not hand steering) However, for inland waters you have to tack and adjust sail trim often, where you are exposed to the crappy stuff. We get the real wind here in the winter, so that's the fun time to sail.

I'll have to give it a second thought. I guess two way electric winches could fix that, but that could take a lot of the fun out.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I am surprised that you can find a new 40' boat for 200K. One brand you might want to look at is Gozzard. nix that - I just looked at their brokerage listings and they're pretty pricey...

Gozzard Yachts - Brokerage

great boats though. Maybe a Bayfield ? Lots of room, strongly built and the bigger ones are no slower than a lot of other boats out there...


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Paul...thanks for the kind comments on my boat. I agree with you that a CC boat will:
1. Give you room to spread out a bit below...(I am 6'4") especialy in the aft cabin. 
2. Be very snug and comfy if you do a cockpit enclosure an it will keep you drier as well. 

My 52 is out of your range and I would think most would be after adding in "fix costs" however I do suggest you look at the Tayana42 CC which is a canoe sterned center cockpit. Other CC's which are well built and can fall into your price range or under it would be:
Hylas 44/46/47, Brewer42/44, Peterson44/46, Moody40/44, Celestial48, Bristol 43/47 and I variety of older, more limited production boats like Oysters, Little Harbors etc. 

Be patient...you may have to wait a bit for the right CC boat to come along. Don't be afraid to go fairly far afield to get the boat you want...this is not like buying a Catalina 27...you can put it on a ship to Seattle for less $$ than a similar one might cost you up there. Good luck!


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## paul77 (Jul 5, 2007)

Sailormann, I think you are right for anything but a hunter or catalina. A new hanse 400 is closer to the middle of my price range incl tax and commisioning, depending on options. 

Camaraderie, thanks for your advice, esp the comment on shipping the boat up here. Definitely something I have to worry about. A west coast boat would be easiest, but not a lot of what I'm looking for even in CA.

The celestial 48 is nice looking, had never heard of them, sounds like something to check out.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Pal, I can understand going for a pilothouse boat but personally...No matter how much I've appreciated staying out of the rain and sun, I've always found biminis and cockpit enclosures to be a RFPITA. Every time you want to rig something, or each something, or tie something, or go someplace, there's that damned fragile tent in the way.

I find that a good set of foulies, with a REAL GOOD hood and high collar that fit well, and a nice silk/wool scarf for my neck, or a nice navy-style watch cap (or "jeep cap" which has a short brim in it) keeps me happy enough in the cockpit, and an diesel cabin heater (Esper, Esbacher, etc.) below will remedy anything else in short order.

Trying to turn a cockpit into a pilothouse can be an expensive and cumbersome business. Just one sailor's point of view.


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## paul77 (Jul 5, 2007)

hellosailor.. lmao.. I fully expected suck it up as an answer. I picked up a set of offshore helly hansen foulweather gear (retail like $1200) at their sample sale for next to nothing. It has a nice high collar, and very windproof construction. It's mostly my extremities, fingers + toes.. that and the wind/freezer burn on the face.

I read about camradarie in his shorts and tshirt in his CC, and started thinking there might be a better life out there..

anyone have thoughts on these.. ?

mason 53'
YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale

tashing 50'
YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale

I've read on the tayana forums and elsewhere about the concerns about teak decks from boats from the Tayang shipyard. Is the same true for the Tashing yard? Camaradarie, did you have to deal with your teak decks?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

The folks at Marine Servicenter which sell Jeanneau, C&C, Tarten, nauticat and dehler may have some options for you also. The new pilot house at Signiture yacht sales from....dang it, can not remember the florida manufacture.........they also have benetueau and sabre. 

Find something that is fin keeled, moderate disp, draft is not an issue in most places around here, unlike the east coast. So a deep fin will do you well for pointing as one needs to do around here, or downwind. Also one with plenty of sail area option for the summer doldrum months. IE a 150 lighter wt drifter reacher is a good summer sail, with a 110 for the winter, and something availible in the 140 range for normal work.

You might also look at teh 48 degrees north mags listing also, along with the yachtworld list too.

I also know a broker that has sailed his yacht he lives on from teh east coast to the southern puget sound area that he works out of. We bought our used boat thru him. A very knowlegeble broker. The folks at MSC are good too. 

Other wise, used there are lots of Islanders, Newports, ranger, ericson, Jboats to some degree, that are in the cruiser racer mix, altho a lot less than you are thinking of spending, unless you do go new. 

Also get something with a larger motor, due to currents and tides! ie the 6-9 knot versions thru deception, narrows etc.

Marty


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Paul...the Mason seems cheap but I like them a lot. I'm wondering if there are significant issues with the boat (like decks). 

The Orion reminds me a lot of our own boat and there is nothing wrong with the Tashing yard... the listing reminded me to tell you to put norseman 44 on your list as well!... I really DON'T like the golden color on that particular boats decks as it means that harsh cleaners have been used. The stern of the boat is a tragedy! 

Any boats from any where with screwed down teak decks will need those decks re-done sooner or later. Some boats have had this work done already...others need it now and should be priced WAY below going market price...others don't need it yet. If the boat has spent its' life in the tropics you get less life out of a teak deck. My own spent the first 25 years of its' life in fresh water and up north and covered for 6 months a year + the PO had painted the decks with what looked to be some sort of house paint! So, our decks were pristine when we bought her but that was a BIG concern for me in the survey phase. So far no leaks and all we use on her is salt water! I wouldn't LOOK for teak decks (even though they feel great under your feet and give excellent traction)...but I wouldn't rule a boat out that had them unless they needed work.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

CS Yachts International


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## paul77 (Jul 5, 2007)

blt2ski, thanks for the pointers. have worked with brokers at both MSC and Signature on their respective new & used boat inventories. 

Certainly an advantage to the used boat is having the sail inventory already built up. I have a friend who's spinnaker has never been out of it's bag 

camaraderie, isn't the worry that the core is rotting underneath the decks, because water gets in thru the screw holes.. So even though everything looks fine, there could be a scary hidden issue, one that can't be surveyed for easily because it's the underdeck. 

Whatever the "teak oil" he's using on those decks, they look to be in pretty good shape, not sanded down to slivers or anything, though hard to tell from teh photos. The wing is pretty funny, but I love the electric dinghy davit. Me and my girlfriend love anchoring because it's free, but also hate pulling the dinghy.. that solves everything neatly.

Sailorman, very nice boat.. if I end my detour into aging center cockpits, I should give those a closer look.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

CS Rules !!!


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

*"camaraderie, isn't the worry that the core is rotting underneath the decks, because water gets in thru the screw holes.. So even though everything looks fine, there could be a scary hidden issue, one that can't be surveyed for easily because it's the underdeck. "

*You're right...the core is the real concern since the decks can always be replaced...but bad core gets messy and it is never certain how BIG the job will be until you start digging. 
My own view now is that:
1. It is quite unusual to have a teak deck that appears to be in excellent condition and have *significant* core issues. On the other hand...if the deck does not appear in good condition, you can almost bet on significant core issues.
2. One nice thing about most teak decked boats is that they typicaly have removeable interior headliners. This means you can remove a panel and tap for core problems. It also makes for relatively easy repairs for core issues around fittings etc. ...I really ugly job on boats with interior FG liners.

So...as I said...I would NOT be looking for a boat with teak decks given the possibilities...but I wouldn't walk away from one automatically either, if I loved everything else about the boat.


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## paul77 (Jul 5, 2007)

For the brand new boat, we were pretty interested in doing teak. An awlgripped deck just doesn't give me quite the same feeling of emotional satisfaction. I'll take your advice to heart for the older boats, and find myself a good surveyor who can check this.

Or find more like this tayana 52, who've done the work already 
YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale

I'll added a budget line item for shipping from FL. I'm waiting to hear back from dockwise.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I'd second hellosailor's aversion to canvassed in cockpits - CC or aft - and can understand the temptation to go for a pilothouse for year round cruising in this area.

But there are few good designs that meet the criteria other than semi custom boats. There are a few Cooper 416s and 502s about, (also built as US 42) - they have lots of room, inside steering and an aft cockpit for the good days, but don't really measure up to some of the other higher end brands you are looking at. Saturna made a 37 - a bit on the small side for you... the locally built Sceptre series (41/43) carry a good reputation and hold their value well - you might look into those as well. It's a handsome vessel for a pilothouse design. All of these were built in the Vancouver BC area.

YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale&


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## paul77 (Jul 5, 2007)

That Sceptre is very nice, they certainly do hold their value well. That is a pretty heavy boat though at 41' (29,000lbs), and quite expensive compared to other 40' boats. I imagine this is designed for more offshore work. The rig doesn't look particularly large and with that furling main, so I'd expect a pretty low SA/D.

Pilothouse is interesting, but since you can't really sail while in the house, it has very few advantages for me. If conditions are really so horrid, I have the option of not leaving port rather than motoring all day. 

Not sure if it's better or worse for navigating in and out of port under power, and certainly in the summer here where there's no wind is when you want to have the bimini open to get a nice sunburn..


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Yeah, she's a bit heavy alright, and a bit pricey too - but I was under the impression that you were after a pilothouse.

Friends have a fairly new custom Sceptre 43 (modified 41 with an open extended transom) and they say that once sailing, they have a clear hatch over the steering station and can steer and observe the sails easily enough. Changing trim, though, requires a trip to the cockpit.

Nevertheless, they are certainly year-round boats!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Paul-
Got lucky when I got my old H.Lloyds the same way as "last years style" in yellow instead of lime green. I can live with that for 60% off.<G>
You may find that skin.scuba supplies are also very useful, for instance thin "warm water" five-finger neoprene gloves, $10-15 at Walmart in warmer locations, complete with nubby grip bumps. 3x that much in a dive store of course. They won't keep your hands DRY in the downpour but they will keep you warm, and that's good enough for me. Lots of gore-tex lined thin winter gloves for skiers and such on the market these days too. And rubber divers booties that zip us the side, about 6-9" tall, make for real warm shoes. There are also neoprene socks sold, for fisherman to wear in waders, again WalMart can be a great chandlery.<G>

Add some polypro underwear that stays warm even when wet, and dries very quickly, and a silk turtleneck as a top liner layer (also inexpensive) and there's a lot to be said for the progress in wet wx clothing these days, you should be able to stay warm and dry in almost any wx--on a budget.

Anybody questions my winterweight woodland camo GoreTex bid pants in the winter, and I just remind them that duck hunting is legal outside the three mile limit.<G>


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## alymatt (Jan 12, 2009)

Faster,

Which Sceptre 41-43 boat do you know?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I know of 2 sceptre's in Edmonds Wa, and one farther south in Case inlet.

Marty


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## alymatt (Jan 12, 2009)

My dad just sold his 4 months or so ago.......he was every rendezvous / fun race etc........SCEPTRE III

It is a great boat for around the Pacific NW that sails exceptionally well!

John


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Don't know that one, the three I know of have been owned for 3-5 yrs min for all three. 

Marty


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

alymatt said:


> My dad just sold his 4 months or so ago.......he was every rendezvous / fun race etc........SCEPTRE III
> 
> It is a great boat for around the Pacific NW that sails exceptionally well!
> 
> John


John - we belong to the Gulf Yacht Club (as does/did your Dad) so we know of his of course (though we've not actually seen it), as well as several others in the same club: Forever Young, Kwinnum, Lucy May, Christie Cove.

We had heard Sceptre III was on the block, apparently a very nice example indeed.


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