# Owning a Boat is EXPENSIVE!



## CaptainFredGreenfield

*UPDATE 1/6/09 - Please see page 16 of this thread for an updated cost figuring schedule with 3 seperate scenarios posted. http://www.sailnet.com/forums/buying-boat/50092-owning-boat-expensive-15.html*

Thought I would post this here, it may help those looking to buy a boat think about all those other costs involved.

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Everyone who ever wanted to buy their first boat has gone through the same thought:

"I'm going to buy this $10,000- $30,000 boat, and take my friends and significant other out at least several weeks per summer."

You believe you will go out for several weeks.

But realistically, how many days will you, your SO, your friends, or THE WHOLE GANG be able to break away to go sailing? Is it a few weeks or a few weekends?

What about winter? Are you in a climate where you can even imagine sailing in anything less than peak summer weather?

What about maintenance? Slip fees? Insurance?

*SEASONAL WEATHER AFFECTS THE NUMBER OF DAYS YOU CAN ENJOY YOUR BOAT*

If you own your own boat, car, train, plane etc. you are faced with issues related to seasonal conditions. If you only envision balmy summer breezes and pleasant evenings, sailing or motoring along placid waters... remember a couple of things:

Unless you live in the tropics, the seasons will change, but still, the tropics have their own set of issues like hurricanes or tropical storms. Winter will come and with it a set of conditions that many times cause people to lose interest in "taking a trip in my boat this weekend. " If you are beyond 35º north or south of the equator, you may want to consider what has to happen to sailing vessels and power boats when October rolls around in the north or May, "down under", it may be time to put away the golf bats and put the "yacht" on the hard, where it may be less expensive, but not available to use.

Taking seasons into consideration along with job related time constraints and family duties, HOW MANY (wonderful/warm/sunny) DAYS A YEAR WILL YOU BE ABLE TO ENJOY YOUR FLOATING DREAMBOAT? 30? 60? ...I wonder!

*DON'T FORGET DEPRECIATION*

Assign 30% depreciation for the first year on a new boat, 20% for the second year (Or the first year on a used boat ) and 10% (of the original price) for each year thereafter. At some point the depreciation will taper off, but the maintenance will escalate to make up for it.

*FIGURING THE COSTS*

Lets put the total cost of your sailing vessel or power boat down on paper.

A used, 25 to 30 foot, 10 to 20 yr old boat, bought at a realistic price to value, with good enough equipment (sails/engine/batteries/bottom paint/etc) to get by for a while, berthed at a normal marina will pencil out something like this, over a 5 yr ownership.

5 Yr Ownership

$20,000 PURCHASE PRICE

EXPENSES__________________________

- $4,000 first year depreciation

- $3,200 first year $300 per mo. slip rent + $200/yr liability insurance (possibly add electricity) Not including live aboard fees if you are planning to do that.

next 4 years

- $8,000 next 4 yrs depreciation/maintenance

- $12,800 next 4 yrs slip fees and insurance

__________________________________

$28,000 TOTAL EXPENSE

+ $20,000 ORIGINAL PURCHASE PRICE

__________________________________

$48,000 TOTAL to own this boat for 5 yrs.

That's approx. $9600/year if you don't sell it.

If you do resell it after 5 years for $14,500 resale value (private sale/no commission)

then $33,500 non-recovered expenses/depreciation divided by 5 yrs = $6700/year

*The numbers I use are based on my personal experience (I have owned dozens of power and sailing boats, ) and are also based on my observations of other boat owners. You may wish to challenge any of my numbers by up to 50% (I know that you know a guy...) but the costs, even at half of my forecast) are eye opening. Just think, what if "your guy" and I are both wrong and you buy a boat with unseen issues? WHAT IF THE NUMBERS ARE DOUBLE?

*SOME ANALYSIS*

I CAN FLY ALMOST ANYWHERE AND STEER A SAME SIZE OR BIGGER (BARE BOAT) CHARTER BOAT IN SOME PRETTY NICE PLACES (FOR A WEEK AT A TIME YEAR-ROUND) AT LEAST TWO, MAYBE THREE TIMES A YEAR. FOR THAT YEARLY AMOUNT. If I talk another person or couple into splitting the charter fee......maybe I can go more often or we can hire a bigger boat. Imagine the simplicity and convenience of it all. Chartering offers you the opportunity for year round fair weather adventure. You can pick your cruising ground, pick your season, enjoy, take some pictures, return home and plan your next nautical safari.

So remember next time you are having that dream... unless you can get some serious usage out of your sailboat, and can stomach the thousands of dollars it will take to own a sailboat yearly, maybe you don't need to own a sailboat after all!

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Anyone have any thoughts to add?


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## N0NJY

> So remember next time you are having that dream... unless you can get some serious usage out of your sailboat, and can stomach the thousands of dollars it will take to own a sailboat yearly, maybe you don't need to own a sailboat after all!


Yeah. Why the hell do any of you bother to dream, or do?

I don't get it either.


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## norsearayder

ill keep my boat...most of my money ive spent on wimin and boats ..the rest ive wasted...but realy all hobies can cost money& if u love what ur doin then continue on...life is short enjoy it while u can rayder


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## sailingdog

Just curious, what's your point??? 

If you can't afford a boat...don't buy one... 

BTW, your analysis is probably a bit off, since no used boat is going to depreciate from $20,000 to $16,000 in a year. Let's assume that the boat is a 30' LOA Benehuntalina. The boat would cost new, somewhere north of $90,000...and for it to be selling for $20,000 it's got to be at least six years old—since it has depreciated by over $70,000. I don't see a six-year old boat dropping $4,000 in value over a year...


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## CaptainFredGreenfield

N0NJY said:


> Yeah. Why the hell do any of you bother to dream, or do?
> 
> I don't get it either.


Its meant to provide some advice and insight to those who have a dream to do it, have been sitting at their desk dreaming it, but don't see or know about all of the other costs associated. I'm just sick of seeing people neglecting their boats, coming down to the dock twice a year, trying to get their wife to come down but since they've been neglecting their boats they spend all their time trying to get the thing to run and get her clean, in the meantime throwing away money on slip fees and insurance and after a couple of years selling their boat at a loss after throwing away a few G's.

I think if you go into it with a different mindset you might be able to get some some real use out of your boat in the first couple of years and settle into a nice life of occasional or regular boating!

I've seen enough boat abuse to last for a lifetime, I'd rather dreamers simply look at it a little more practically before blowing tens of thousands on a boat only to find out they're not ready.


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## chucklesR

Boat depreciation averages, 6 percent year one, 3 percent per year after for 5 years, then it depends on maintenance and market, it's not a straight line.

A well maintained boat, bought cheap and fixed, doesn't depreciate at all.

Gemini's bought new in the 80's sell for more than the original price today. 
Go figure 

That per BoatUS.


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## CaptainFredGreenfield

chucklesR said:


> Boat depreciation averages, 6 percent year one, 3 percent per year after for 5 years, then it depends on maintenance and market, it's not a straight line.
> 
> A well maintained boat, bought cheap and fixed, doesn't depreciate at all.
> 
> Gemini's bought new in the 80's sell for more than the original price today.
> Go figure
> 
> That per BoatUS.


Thank you for this. As I said, I've based my numbers on what I've seen.

I think you might be misunderstanding, the depreciation costs also assume a certain amount of maintenance/gas/diesel/other expenses to make up the difference.

In other words, if you don't spend it on maintenance, you will see it in depreciation, due to neglect. If you think a 20k boat with no maintence doesn't depreciate to 14k, it certainly does.

I just saw this in a 1970 Coronado I just bought for very little due to the fact that the guy bought it, his wife and boy decided not to continue to go sailing with him, he TOTALLY neglected his boat (Palmer engine now no-operational, the thing was filthy inside in and out), so I bought it for VERY undermarket.

On the flip side, there are a number of classic boats which actually sell for more than their original sales prices, like the Northwest 21 which I designed.


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## Delirious

I don't smoke, use drugs or buy drinks at a bar so I figure I save enough to afford the boat. :-D

Buy used. Pay cash. Maintain it yourself. 

Where do you get that a 20 year old boat depreciates $4,000 per year? Are you going to sink it after five years or try and sell it? A 20 year old boat has ZERO book value, anyway (A new vehicle has a five to seven year book life - not sure about boats). But even so. If you buy it for $20K today and take care or it in 20 years it may be worth $40K at the cost of capital in 2028. So it appreciates. Certainly should hold its own.


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## TxLnghrn

Captain, 

I'd go back to accounting class. 
If you expense your depreciation, you cannot compare the sale price to the original asset price plus the depreciation expense. The way you are demonstrating the math, the depreciation is being counted twice. 
If you are going to depreciate 12k off the asset (way too high, but for the sake of argument I'll give it to you). You would then have to compare your theoretical sale price of $14500 to the depreciated value of 8k. So you actually demonstrate a net $6500 gain on the sale. 
You are showing an estimated expense (slip/insurance) of 16K for a net loss of $9500 over 5 years. That works out to a annual cost of $1900. If you can fly and charter a boat 2-3 weeks a year for $1900 I want to meet your travel agent.
Of course, this doesn't take into account tax advantages if you establish an LLC, or can document enough nights on the boat to list it as a second home.

Michael


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## CaptainFredGreenfield

sailingdog said:


> Just curious, what's your point???
> 
> If you can't afford a boat...don't buy one...
> 
> BTW, your analysis is probably a bit off, since no used boat is going to depreciate from $20,000 to $16,000 in a year. Let's assume that the boat is a 30' LOA Benehuntalina. The boat would cost new, somewhere north of $90,000...and for it to be selling for $20,000 it's got to be at least six years old-since it has depreciated by over $70,000. I don't see a six-year old boat dropping $4,000 in value over a year...


Hey, I want to know more about that Telstar in your sig!

Regarding your post...

I think I said plainly what my point was above. I want for dreamers and people reading my advice blog to prepare themselves before they commit to their dream and have it go upside down quickly, like I see all the time in SoCal marinas. I've seen it for decades... its always the same story: they don't understand the costs or the commitment and they bail within a year or two, especially when the wife starts complaining about her mall money going to waste on their "mistress".

The numbers are approximate but close to real I think.


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## smackdaddy

Lay out the costs of a typical charter so we can compare apples to apples.


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## CaptainFredGreenfield

Delirious said:


> I don't smoke, use drugs or buy drinks at a bar so I figure I save enough to afford the boat. :-D
> 
> Buy used. Pay cash. Maintain it yourself.


This is GREAT! You are the guy who has the commitment and appreciation (as do the other veterans above obviously) to afford the boat, and the right perspective. Do you mind if I quote you on my blog?



> Where do you get that a 20 year old boat depreciates $4,000 per year?


I didn't say it depreciates that much per year. I said it depreciates that much over the first year without upgrades or maintenance.



> Are you going to sink it after five years or try and sell it?


I don't quite understand that question. The point is based on keeping it for 5 years regardless of what you do with it. I've seen people die with neglected boats to their name... how much did they recoup? My Rawson was that way. It sat in Dana Point harbor for 20+ years, bottom cleaned and slip paid until the guy passed away and the estate gave it to the Sea Scouts. I don't even want to do the numbers on that one.



> But even so. If you buy it for $20K today and take care or it in 20 years it may be worth $40K at the cost of capital in 2028. So it appreciates. Certainly should hold its own.


My Rawson, depending on its Geographic Location is worth between 17.5k to 30k. Many boats have EXCELLENT resale value depending on their heritage, reputation, and how much of a coveted boat it is. I paid 2100 for that boat the way it sat.

But it only appreciates, in rare scenarios, that much with maintence, upgrades, and care. You'll spend $20k over that period of time just to maintain and replace components, even if it just sits at the dock most of the time.


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## N0NJY

CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> Its meant to provide some advice and insight to those who have a dream to do it, have been sitting at their desk dreaming it, but don't see or know about all of the other costs associated. I'm just sick of seeing people neglecting their boats, coming down to the dock twice a year, trying to get their wife to come down but since they've been neglecting their boats they spend all their time trying to get the thing to run and get her clean, in the meantime throwing away money on slip fees and insurance and after a couple of years selling their boat at a loss after throwing away a few G's.
> 
> I think if you go into it with a different mindset you might be able to get some some real use out of your boat in the first couple of years and settle into a nice life of occasional or regular boating!
> 
> I've seen enough boat abuse to last for a lifetime, I'd rather dreamers simply look at it a little more practically before blowing tens of thousands on a boat only to find out they're not ready.


Look Cap'n - No offense meant here, but, I've got several rather expensive hobbies. Amateur radio, collecting guns, archery, computers (many types and sorts in my basement), making beer, making mead to name just a few of them.

I've been more of a "hobby collector" over the years than anything else. I get going on something, I get very GOOD at it and add it to my personal resume of "things I can do".

If I took that same tack as you just did in your article, by telling folks that "Ham radio can cost you thousands and thousands of dollars, so remember, a cell phone is probably cheaper" it would turn people OFF the hobby in the first place.

My remark was certainly sarcastic because my wife and I are just getting started in sailing and to hear some of the folks here complain constantly about the "cost of sailing" is quite a turn off.

But - like Amateur Radio (where equipment can cost you as much as a small boat - in fact there are radio systems out there running 13k and more - very expensive for a radio not used under military specifications, the MORE part is what bugs me... but I digress) so buying a very expensive boat in my opinion is an option some people have.

I do not.

I also don't have the experience yet to tell someone the pros and cons about any particular boat thus I wouldn't do that.

BUT, I DO have some things going for me that will help to defray costs of maintenance on a boat over the course of several years.

Those things are - I'm damned good with tools, woodworking, metal working, plumbing, electrical systems, I am a 40 year plus radio guy (I have designed systems, built systems, fixed systems, installed systems) and I have the most frugal wife in the world who helps us maintain a budget. The two of us have managed many people, many systems, raised a large family, raised grandchildren and we both are reasonably intelligent people.

Given that information the whole premise of your article is "You really ought not get started sailing IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD it".

I've seen that sentiment echoed here time and again by various people.

I personally see that as a very bigoted response from people I believe don't want to see someone "without money" getting involved in a "rich man's sport".

That's just how I saw your article - and to some extent how I view many of the posters here with a very, very biased point of view.

I have no intention of listening to any of you.

I'll do what I can do with what I have, and I will do it better than most because I have to learn to do things on my own (as I have all my life) and I will do it better because I promise I won't be spending as much as everyone else (I can do MOST of my own repairs, refits, and so forth).

I believe you certainly meant well - and perhaps I missed the point of your whole message here (but, I don't think so from what you said in the next message directed at me).

When it comes down to the statement you made above... "I'm just sick of seeing people neglect their boats" - I think ALL of us would WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with you.

I don't get the idea why someone buys one, parks it in a slip and visits it twice a year (I can see why *I* might do that, in preparation for moving TO the boat - I LIVE in Colorado and NOT on the coast and moving right this minute is simply out of the question.....)

So - perhaps you could cut those folks some slack. Your personal point of view is certainly your opinion - and we all have those, but HONESTLY, do YOU take care of your boat? I'm sure you do. Good for you!

Personally I FULLY intend to get plenty of use out of any boat I own. I just purchased an old boat to learn in. I'm leaving for classes in April (to California). Once done there, we put our boat in the water and will be in it every weekend this spring and summer to practice.

Over the course of the next two years our plans are already pretty much set on how much sailing we need to get in, where we need to go and how we're going to accomplish that.

In three years we start looking in earnest for our boat - the one we will be cruising in.

And I promise you folks, if we get that far, we will be cruising from place to place, not sitting at a slip for months at a time.

I've learned a lot from this site already. Some of it is how NOT to do things.


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## N0NJY

CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> I just saw this in a 1970 Coronado I just bought for very little due to the fact that the guy bought it, his wife and boy decided not to continue to go sailing with him, he TOTALLY neglected his boat (Palmer engine now no-operational, the thing was filthy inside in and out), so I bought it for VERY undermarket.


I would say THIS particular aspect is a GOOD thing - for me. Since I am currently looking for a boat that will suit our needs. Thus, if I can find something that needs cleaning and work that I can do myself on, and get it for "under market" but still have a boat that is usable for us, then this is a veyr good thing.

The neglect one person heaps upon an object can always be a benefit for someone else later. Certainly, the total destruction of a good boat is a bad thing.

But at the same time a person who can not take the time, and won't take the time to care for his boat should give it up to someone who can.


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## k1vsk

If you measure everything in terms of dollars, you're missing the point to life!
Everybody has a different perspective on boat ownership. For me, it's alot cheaper than my ham radio hobby where I can easily spend $12,000 on one radio which hardly ever gets used. So what? I like it!

For many, a big part of boat ownership is the analog to a second home on the ocean. A boat is usually much cheaper. Additionally, a boat doesn't always have to be at sea to be enjoyed - we have spend many enjoyable weekends at the marina without ever doing out.

If I were to calculate how much it costs me to play golf the few times a year I do, I'd shoot myself for stupidity - that's not the point.


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## CaptainFredGreenfield

norsearayder said:


> ill keep my boat...most of my money ive spent on wimin and boats ..the rest ive wasted...but realy all hobies can cost money& if u love what ur doin then continue on...life is short enjoy it while u can rayder


I totally agree.



chucklesR said:


> Boat depreciation averages, 6 percent year one, 3 percent per year after for 5 years, then it depends on maintenance and market, it's not a straight line.
> 
> A well maintained boat, bought cheap and fixed, doesn't depreciate at all.
> 
> Gemini's bought new in the 80's sell for more than the original price today.
> Go figure
> 
> That per BoatUS.


"Depreciation. After the first season on the water new powerboats depreciate an average of around 10% and new sailboats about 5%. Used boats, however, may hold steady, or even increase, in value with a minimal amount of work or equipment improvements." boatusDOTCOM/guidenew/b_finding.asp

That's all I can find, do you have another link? Regarding that quote, thats pretty much what I've said. If you spend the money on upgrades and maintenance, you may see it in the resale price, but likely not near how much you've spent on expenses. Otherwise, you'll see it in depreciation. Most boats find themselves somewhere in the middle.

They say minimal... how is that defined? Rails? Bottom Cleaning? Zincs? Topside cleaning? Hank replacements or other sail issues? Engine issues? Battery Issues? What exactly is minimal maintenance and how much does it cost? I know if I leave my boat a few months the rails, bottom, zincs, etc all need maintenance. Every few years I have to replace my batteries. The sailmaker had to repair a hank I blew out. It all adds up.

Thats the part that people who haven't bought a boat don't know about, and thats why I wrote the article and thats why I started my blog... to help people understand.


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## N0NJY

CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> I think I said plainly what my point was above. I want for dreamers and people reading my advice blog to prepare themselves before they commit to their dream and have it go upside down quickly, like I see all the time in SoCal marinas. I've seen it for decades... its always the same story: they don't understand the costs or the commitment and they bail within a year or two, especially when the wife starts complaining about her mall money going to waste on their "mistress".


My wife is my partner. My wife is the one that started the idea of going cruising, rather than "quiting to a little house on the prairie - which, by the way, given the fact we have probably 60 countries visited between us, is something I TOO want to do (and continue to do).

I get your point. Let me help to rephrase it here...

"I want for dreamers and people reading my advice blog to prepare themselves before they commit to their dream" to prepare themselves (meaning to HAVE A LOT OF MONEY) before they commit to their dream (to wishy washy) and have it go upside down quickly.

In other words, if you can't commit a couple million, you ought to stay home. That way YOU, Cap'n, do not have to observe other humans in their natural habitat and you have the sea to yourself.

At least, Sir, so it seems to me.

Dreamers are dreamers - and many times they MAKE their dreams HAPPEN. They do it however they have to do it.

They don't get them accomplished listening to people telling them to stay home and not try something new.

Sorry, dude, it doesn't work that way.


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## N0NJY

k1vsk said:


> If you measure everything in terms of dollars, you're missing the point to life!
> 
> Everybody has a different perspective on boat ownership. For me, it's alot cheaper than my ham radio hobby where I can easily spend $12,000 on one radio which hardly ever gets used. So what? I like it!


K1VSK de N0NJY 73 & tnx (for the verification....)


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## sailortjk1

Yep, no doubt about it. Sure is. So whats the point?

That your a charter Captain and want people to charter from you vrs. buying? This sounds to me like an advertisement for the chartering industry and nothinhg more.


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## CaptKermie

*Yes they are expensive!*



CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> Hey, I want to know more about that Telstar in your sig!
> 
> Regarding your post...
> 
> I think I said plainly what my point was above. I want for dreamers and people reading my advice blog to prepare themselves before they commit to their dream and have it go upside down quickly, like I see all the time in SoCal marinas. I've seen it for decades... its always the same story: they don't understand the costs or the commitment and they bail within a year or two, *especially when the wife starts complaining about her mall money going to waste on their "mistress".*
> The numbers are approximate but close to real I think.


Wow! sure glad my wife shares my passion!
I was a dreamer, for many years a dreamer, finally tired of being spectators my wife and I went to a boat show. She saw her dream boat and after some thought I shared her dream even though I had a different boat in mind. It took us three years to get it together to aquire the boat and now we have done six summers with it and looking forward to many more.
Yes we are governed by seasons 49 degrees north but we are in the PNW and it is paradise in the summer. Our boat is trailerable (MacGregor 26M) so slip fees have been transient but we are contemplating annual. We don't drink, smoke, gamble or do drugs or play golf or have kids, we just have our boat and ourselves and the islands to explore. We are getting on in our years and we can't take our money with us so we are enjoying the fruits of our labor while we still can. I don't regret one penny I spent on our boat and I intend to spend a lot more on it, just for the fun of it!


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## N0NJY

sailortjk1 said:


> Yep, no doubt about it. Sure is. So whats the point?
> 
> That your a charter Captain and want people to charter from you vrs. buying? This sounds to me like an advertisement for the chartering industry and nothinhg more.


I was being polite. I was warned the other day about "verbal fist fights" - but damn it, the guy just showed up here with a "blog" he's advertising, and pointing out that people ought to buy charters rather than buy a boat because HE doesn't want to see it any more.

I'm sorry.

At least I'm honest when I get into verbal "fist fights". I'm not gonna sugar coat something and try to obfuscate - I tell it like it is and that's that.


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## CalypsoP35

*Stupity*

No [****] owning a boat is expensive! But you can manage many of the costs if you really want a boat. You can get a mooring instead of a slip, you can do your own maintenance, if you live up North and your boat has to be drydocked for the winter you can store it at your house instead of a marina yard. If you don't love boating get the hell out.

You can't protect people from themselves. Anyone who doesn't understand owning a boat is not a practical decision has reached a stupid conclusion.

Anyone who buys a boat and doesn't research the annual costs to determine if they can afford them has made a stupid decision.

Anyone who can't get out on the boat enough to justify the expense that they can afford, is either whipped or doesn't really love boating.:laugher

You don't have to be stupid to make a stupid decision, but it sure helps. As one renowned ******* would put it, "Here's your sign"


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## sailingdog

What do you want to know...

The Telstar 28 is a 27' 6" folding cruising trimaran built by Performance Cruising Inc., out of Annapolis, MD. It has a draft of 5' on the newer longer centerboard models, 4' 3" on the older models like mine... a 35' 6" mast if you've got the standard mast, 18' beam or 8' 6" beam when folded, a mast-raising system like nothing you've ever seen before... 6' of standing headroom throughout most of the cabin. Goes like a bat out of hell, sails flat-even in nastier conditions...






BTW, welcome to sailnet... and I'd highly recommend you read the *POST* in my signature to help you get the most out of your time here. It has tips on searching sailnet, writing a good post, etc...


CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> Hey, I want to know more about that Telstar in your sig!.


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## bubb2

So is golf. Funny looking pants and shoes, Club dues. Green fees. Little balls with dimples. The crooked sticks that you put in a over priced bag.

If you look at it from a straight economic point of view Sailing and golf don't make good sense. But it is a Quality of life thing.

Buying groceries are not a good investment either. Think of the money spent and what you left with after "depression."


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## TSOJOURNER

*Boat Ownership*

I am not sure who you are trying to convince that owning a boat is expensive. It is! I believe your figuring might somewhat skewed though.

Just like a purchase of anything with a motor in it I have always asked questions about future maintenance and costs prior to saying "I'll take it"! I tried to convince my daughters not to buy the used BMW they had their eyes set on because of the expence of parts and maintenance. They found out the hard way when it didn't pass emmisions. The parts needed to fix it cost as much as the car cost. I found used parts at a junk yard that were affordable. They saw afterwards how expensive it was to own the car.

My point is that I was aware that my boat was going to cost me more then I expected at the begining no matter how much research I did before buying it. All of people I have met have told me it was just a hole in the water that I would throw money into. However, I feel it makes it all worthwhile when I am out on the boat and see a fantastic sunset or make new friends. I don't even think of how much I have spent to make our 33 year old boat comfortable, reliable, and enjoyable. I like being able to have the boat ready to go out without having to haul everything to the boat and not have to worry about being back at a certain time because that is how long it has been rented for. If I want to stay out an extra day I can because it's mine. If you think it's too expensive that is fine. Sell you boat and rent someone else's.


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## djodenda

I was 18 when I bought my first boat. A Laser.. Got it for under $500 and gave it away later. It was still worth $500 when I gave it away.

I'm 46 now, and on my 6th boat (a Catalina 30). I paid $26,500 for it, and will probably sell it for the same amount eventually.

I do almost all of my own maintenance and figure it costs me around $5,000 a year to keep, including slip fees, parts, and upgrades.

I cruised my boat for 4 weeks last year, and had dozens of daysails.

Pretty good deal, if you ask me.

But there really is no need for an argument here. Boat ownership can be either cheap or expensive, depending how you do it. 

The reality is that boat ownership isn't expensive or inexpensive, it's PRICELESS. I can't imagine being without one.

David


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## N0NJY

> If you think it's too expensive that is fine. Sell you boat and rent someone else's.


Renting someone else's was the point, methinks.... after all, times are indeed tough and owning a boat is a "hole in the water" into which you're throwing your money so you shouldn't (his point, not mine) and dreaming is obviously screwing up people's brains a lot. So they ought not do that either.

Finally, if you happen to still wanna sail - it's probably better on the charter guys' pocket book if you're giving HIM that money and not sinking it into something YOU own.....

Btw I'm still "dreaming" and I hate when people try to ruin others' dreams for them


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## zz4gta

I wrote a check for my boat, it was really cheap (a lot of people here make more in one week than what I paid for her). 
I have a free slip (a delapitated dock with no luxuries, water or elec.) I pay the owner with manual labor. 
I called around to 15 different yards to get the cheapest bottom paint job. 
I bought used race sail b/c I wanted to race. 

There are some expenses you can't get around, but those are few and far between. I sail in 75* sunny weather, and in 30+knt blow in 40* rain. If you want to sail, you will sail. If you want a damn vacation, then you'll take a vacation. Find me a chartered boat for $1200 that I can sail all year if I choose. I'm a boat owner, she's not much of a boat, but she's mine. Check out the cruising section of this board, some of us are planning a trip in the spring, and I didn't have to check on availability of vessels with anyone but myself. I also don't have to sign anything stating that I'll stay between points A and B. I like that freedom.


----------



## N0NJY

> The reality is that boat ownership isn't inexpensive, it's PRICELESS. I can't imagine being without one.


That, right there, is the answer.


----------



## sailingdog

N0NJY said:


> That, right there, is the answer.


I'll third that...


----------



## ChuckA

There obviously will be some variability in the arithmetic, but I get Fred's basic point. *The price of the boat ain't the cost.* I've always bought older boats, fixed them up, and maintained them myself, and it always cost more than I expected. I've never sold one for as much as I paid for it. Whenever I hear someone talk about investing in a boat I like to remind them that a boat is an expense, not an investment. Although, there are a few rare cases, where I've heard that it's actually possible to make money buying and selling. I've never experienced that myself. I also agree with the person who said he spent his money on women and boats and wasted the rest . Last year, I started out tabulating all my expenses, but I didn't get through January, when I couldn't stand to look at the total and gave up the idea. I stick with the old school economic theory of spending less than I make, and it will be OK.

Happy New Year! 
Chuck


----------



## Calabego

Excellent thread. What started out to be a an infomercial-blog lure turned out to be some very heartfelt comments about the benefits of boat ownership that we well...don't really take for granted, IF we consider the costs, but sure do enjoy over fighting for the charter table scraps during peak vacation times. I'm afraid I have to agree with everyone who shared the justifications for the why's of their dream. 

Do I own ? Yes. Paid cash, VERY affordable slippage, and maintenance.
She's a small boat, won't be making any transpacs, and IS available everyday, rain or shine, planned, or on short notice and can and does serve as a comfortable weekender. She's one year younger than I am, but she's in better shape.
Will I charter? Yes, once a year in the US/BVI's and at least once a year in the San Juans (although trailering my baby up there hasn't been ruled out) until I pull the trigger on my 10 year plan and acquire my own 36'-46' cruiser and pay transient fees and the occasional passage fees to move her through the canal while I cruise until she won't float anymore.


----------



## CalebD

Not that Capt. Fred needs an advocate here I think some of the posts here were a little premature and testy. Fred is selling free advice - I checked his website and he does not seem to be in the chartering business so he is not selling charters on his or anyone else's boats. His advice is directed towards people who do not already own boats and most of you have already figured out the finances of owning your own boats by now and are happy with the trade-offs you have made for the joys of owning your own boats.
He posted his piece in the boat buying forum which is the right spot for this kind of advice (even if you do not entirely agree with his points) for prospective boat owners. I say he is only guilty of linking his web page (which most of you do as well) and of complaining about the neglect and misuse of boats. As someone already pointed out those neglected boats can become another man's bargain. 
I say cut old Capt. Fred some slack. His basic premise is true: boats are expensive. This is not news to most everyone here though.
Happy New Year.


----------



## CaptKermie

Calabego said:


> Will I charter? Yes, once a year in the US/BVI's and at least once a year in the San Juans *(although trailering my baby up there hasn't been ruled out)* .


Trailer your baby up there! You won't regret it.

I'll *fourth* that remark that sailing isn't expenive or inexpensive it is PRICELESS!
There isn't a drug in the world that can do for you what sailing can do even if sailing does cost more.


----------



## xort

Owning a sailboat is PATRIOTIC!

I spend every last dime I can on stuff and services, keeping the economy afloat (NO joke!). I demand respect and a salute for my patriotism. All hail me! And you too, except you non-boat owners. You know who you are. You should be ashamed.


----------



## seawitch1906

*expensve to own a boat ..really? whaa ..eureka @!*

I have no idea what is the reason dear "captain" to post this accounting jewel of yours ...?
try to steer away anyone who dreaming to go sailing? 
no one here ever purchased a boat for any rational reason BUT FOR THE LOVE of this wonderful lifestyle ..
why rain an our parade ?

with your SO detailed summary .. you should perhaps paddle on other site like .. "accountant central," or "life is misery " but please stop poring this cold water on our neck ...

glass is all empty for you all the time? I feel sorry for you , and your "revelation" is pointless at least here it is. 
NO.... sailing is not expensive .. missed out on life IS

TA TA


----------



## hellosailor

"Its meant to provide some " traffic to Fred's web site, is all it is.

He forgot that most of us earn big bucks from sponsors for our boats, only fools SPEND money on sailing. Every time that big PEPSI logo on my spinnaker makes it onto a TV spot, KA-CHING, another four-figure deposit hits my offshore account.

:laugher 

Beats all hell out of the pennies per hit that Fred gets for the ads on his web site.


----------



## bljones

Funny that this thread came up, as I am just tallying up my boat expenses for our first year of ownership. My numbers are a little different from yours- size does matter.
The boat in question is a 1973 23' Georgian. All figures quoted are Canuck bucks.
Purchase price (all in, including tax, and survey): $6000.00
Dockage cost: $890 (May- October, No water or shorepower. Serviced slips in our marina run $5-600 more.)
Fuel cost: $38.75
Pump out cost: $60.00
Maintenance: $626 (injector rebuild $372, new lines $70, new nav lights $24, bottom paint, sandpaper, epoxy, etc., $110, cleaning supplies $50)
Upgrades: $442 (new bbq and cover $129, charts $40, nav tools $30 cockpit table $35, hatch screen $36, chart bag $25, floating toy $69, new pfd's/bag $78.)
Cooking fuel: $18
New cradle: $1248
Haulout costs and winter storage: $498
Insurance: $175

Total $9995.75
Number of days spent on boat: 98
Number of nights spent on boat:36
Number of miles sailed: 374 (we're not passagemakers...yet.)

So, I figure that it cost me just a little more than $100/ "boat day" to enjoy my boat this summer, without getting fancy with hypothetical depreciation calculations, forward calculating maintenance, deducting one time costs such as purchase price and cradle, etc.

My bottom line is that if my boat sunk tomorrow and it was a total loss, I have still spent less than it would cost me to spend an equivalent number of days at a Best Western. And just try to get a Best Western room to tack.


----------



## 7Psych

seawitch1906 said:


> I have no idea what is the reason dear "captain" to post this accounting jewel of yours ...?
> try to steer away anyone who dreaming to go sailing?
> no one here ever purchased a boat for any rational reason BUT FOR THE LOVE of this wonderful lifestyle ..
> why rain an our parade ?
> 
> with your SO detailed summary .. you should perhaps paddle on other site like .. "accountant central," or "life is misery " but please stop poring this cold water on our neck ...
> 
> glass is all empty for you all the time? I feel sorry for you , and your "revelation" is pointless at least here it is.
> NO.... sailing is not expensive .. missed out on life IS
> 
> TA TA


+1,000,000,000,000,000,000


----------



## bljones

My point is, sailing is as expensive as you want to make it. If you have no inclination to get your hands dirty, must have a boat big enough to sleep eight, need the newest, bestest electro gizmos and granite in the galley, need a big slip complete with cable tv and phone, and then have to work through 90% of the sailing season just to keep ahead of the costs, then yeah, chartering certainly makes more sense.

However, sense and sailing rarely seem to collide in the same sentence.


----------



## painkiller

I just went over to Capt. Fred's blog, and I found this entry:



> December 24th, 2008: Attention children!! There is no Santa Claus. It's your parents. I want to protect you from disappointment.


Not cool. And here's another one:



> August 6th, 1999: Attention moviegoers. If you're going to see The Sixth Sense, the Bruce Willis character is actually dead. He's a ghost!


Can you believe this guy?? And it goes back further, too:



> November 25th, 1992: The Crying Game? IT'S A *DUDE*!!


----------



## bljones

Thank God he didn't mention "Titanic." I still have to finish watching that one.


----------



## hellosailor

Eh, painkiller?
Anyone who claims to have been blogging, much less running a web site of any kind in 1992, must be Al Gore in drag.

1992? Internet? Ahuh, sure, plenty of private access and sites on the Internet in 1992.<G>


----------



## painkiller

So Capt. Fred is a liar too, eh? That rapscallion.


----------



## CaptainFredGreenfield

TxLnghrn said:


> I'd go back to accounting class.


Michael, thank you for responding. I am not an accountant, I am a sailor. I never said I was a CPA. In fact I prequalified my numbers by saying they are based on my experience alone, and you can feel free to discount by as much as you believe is necessary. I completely respect that when it comes to write-offs and taxes you do an hide expenses for hobbies or legitamite expenses if you are in a marine-related business and can do so. You can write-off depreciation. That assumes that you have the income that you need to write off, otherwise if all it does is contribute to your NOL then you might consider that the cash before taxes is a little more valuable than continuing to add to a NOL by owning a boat that is an expense pit. But I am not a CPA, thats for you and them to figure out. But your comment and how you deal with your taxes has nothing to do with the cost it takes to own your boat. And in this economy I seriously doubt most people are looking for more write-offs!



N0NJY said:


> Look Cap'n - No offense meant here, but...


First of all, thank you very much for taking the time to reply with your post. I completely appreciate your reaction, but please notice, I never said don't have the dream, I just have said, before buying a boat analyze the cost. If you can afford it and can wear the costs, do it. If the costs to own a boat mean that you're going to be spending more than you thought, maybe go sailing with friends who ALWAYS need extra crew, or see if you can charter a boat in a foreign locale.

For people like you who clearly understand the costs and the commitment, you are the PERFECT person to follow through. You'll have a great life onboard a sailboat. Good luck finding the right boat I look forward to reading your future posts on the subject!

Fred


----------



## xort

painkiller said:


> That rapscallion.


He's an onion??? Explain for me please


----------



## CaptainFredGreenfield

N0NJY said:


> I was being polite. I was warned the other day about "verbal fist fights" - but damn it, the guy just showed up here with a "blog" he's advertising, and pointing out that people ought to buy charters rather than buy a boat because HE doesn't want to see it any more.
> 
> I'm sorry.
> 
> At least I'm honest when I get into verbal "fist fights". I'm not gonna sugar coat something and try to obfuscate - I tell it like it is and that's that.


That's my advice, on my blog. I'm only advertising it in my sig because I want to give my advice on what to buy. You disagree.

I mean its amazing, nobody has said my expenses were wrong or that it doesn't cost a lot to own a sailboat and yet a few have such a negative reaction to telling dreamers that information exactly? You'd rather just let those people walk into the propeller blade so that someone can pick up a neglected boat out of a distress sale? Thats just incredible. Thats exactly why I started my blog, hopefully people don't walk into the propellor, they are WARNED THAT THEY COULD, and they take a proper course of action, thats all. Sorry you disagree that I should do that.


----------



## GaryHLucas

I have a boat I paid $6500 for, that originally cost $36,000 but to buy her new today would cost about $80,000. Funny thing is, everything I buy, from the slip to parts is priced for the $80,000 boat!


----------



## bubb2

xort said:


> Owning a sailboat is PATRIOTIC!
> 
> I spend every last dime I can on stuff and services, keeping the economy afloat (NO joke!). I demand respect and a salute for my patriotism. All hail me! And you too, except you non-boat owners. You know who you are. You should be ashamed.


MAY THE XORT BE WITH YOU:laugher


----------



## bljones

CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> I mean its amazing, nobody has said my expenses were wrong or that it doesn't cost a lot to own a sailboat...


Actually, I did. Page 3. Or, more accurately, I explained that my experience differed from yours. Sailing is as expensive as you want it to be.


----------



## smackdaddy

Cap'nFred - hang in there dude. At least you came back to address to the "points" others have made. That shows guts. Welcome to Sailnet.

I asked earlier - but what are the typical rough costs of chartering so that an apples-to-apples comparison can be made here?


----------



## xort

bubb2 said:


> MAY THE XORT BE WITH YOU:laugher


And with you too my fellow hole-in-the-water owner!


----------



## knothead

CaptainFredGreenfield, 
You made a generalization. And, like most generalizations, it's applicable sometimes, and sometimes, not so much. 
Everyone has a different story. I have seen a lot of heartbreaking examples of people making unwise choices and paying for it later. But I've seen some unlikely success stories too.
Thank you for sharing your experience and the conclusions that you've drawn from it. 
But keep in mind, everyone has different standards, expectations and abilities. Don't try to cover everyone with the same blanket.


----------



## sailingdog

Considering that the Internet has been around in some form for a long time, as it developed from ARPAnet... which I played on back in the 1980s... but Mosaic, the first web browser was not developed until 1992, and not in popular distribution until probably 1994, when it was renamed Netscape Navigator IIRC.... I doubt any claims of websites or blogging from prior to 1995 or so. 

BTW, the first Windows based OS to have a decent web browsng capability was Windows 95... and not around prior to 1995. 



hellosailor said:


> Eh, painkiller?
> Anyone who claims to have been blogging, much less running a web site of any kind in 1992, must be Al Gore in drag.
> 
> 1992? Internet? Ahuh, sure, plenty of private access and sites on the Internet in 1992.<g>


</g>


----------



## TxLnghrn

CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> Michael, thank you for responding. I am not an accountant, I am a sailor. I never said I was a CPA. In fact I prequalified my numbers by saying they are based on my experience alone, and you can feel free to discount by as much as you believe is necessary. I completely respect that when it comes to write-offs and taxes you do an hide expenses for hobbies or legitamite expenses if you are in a marine-related business and can do so. You can write-off depreciation. That assumes that you have the income that you need to write off, otherwise if all it does is contribute to your NOL then you might consider that the cash before taxes is a little more valuable than continuing to add to a NOL by owning a boat that is an expense pit. But I am not a CPA, thats for you and them to figure out. But your comment and how you deal with your taxes has nothing to do with the cost it takes to own your boat. And in this economy I seriously doubt most people are looking for more write-offs!
> 
> Fred


Fred,

Nor am I an accountant. I mentioned the potential tax opportunities as an aside. The majority of my post dealt with a faulty premise in your original assumptions re: the cost of ownership. Yes boat ownership is costly, but these costs can be mitigated and/or justified if we compare them to the cost of chartering or for that matter therapy.  
I agree with you that a neglected boat is a waste, I have said this in another post. If you indeed came to Sailnet with the intent to help educate future boat owners, thank-you and welcome to Sailnet. I'm sure you will find this community receptive and educational. But if you came with the intent of boosting your blog hits....You can see where that path will take you from the previous responses.

Michael


----------



## CaptainFredGreenfield

sailingdog said:


> Goes like a bat out of hell, sails flat-even in nastier conditions...
> BTW, welcome to sailnet... and I'd highly recommend you read the *POST* in my signature to help you get the most out of your time here. It has tips on searching sailnet, writing a good post, etc...


Wow! I have been on one before, a long time ago. Very interesting, I just read your link. Also, have read your sig post before, certainly understand and am trying to not break any rules here. That thread is famous, its in every newbie's thread!



terryjoe said:


> I am not sure who you are trying to convince that owning a boat is expensive. It is! I believe your figuring might somewhat skewed though.
> 
> ...
> 
> *My point is that I was aware that my boat was going to cost me more then I expected at the begining no matter how much research I did before buying it. All of people I have met have told me it was just a hole in the water that I would throw money into. However, I feel it makes it all worthwhile when I am out on the boat and see a fantastic sunset or make new friends.*


You just answered your own question  I wanted to let youngins like you were before you bought your boat know that it is indeed, very expensive relatively, to keep. You are the proof that someone who is well aware of this fact, doesn't lose his dream, he just understands going in close to how much he's going to cost. So he treasures those sunsets and magical moments. He doesn't let a good sailing day go by without finding some way to get down to his sailboat. That's what I was and am going for... to the person who doesn't get it, it will only like a giant hole in the water to pour money into, as I've seen time and again.



djodenda said:


> The reality is that boat ownership isn't expensive or inexpensive, it's PRICELESS. I can't imagine being without one.
> 
> David


Thank you David. Great quote. 



ChuckA said:


> There obviously will be some variability in the arithmetic, but I get Fred's basic point. *The price of the boat ain't the cost.* ... I stick with the old school economic theory of spending less than I make, and it will be OK.
> 
> Happy New Year!
> Chuck


Thanks Chuck  Yes, that is exactly my point. Happy new year to you too, hope you have a prosperous and great sailing 2009 



Calabego said:


> Excellent thread. What started out to be a an infomercial-blog lure turned out to be some very heartfelt comments about the benefits of boat ownership that we well...don't really take for granted, IF we consider the costs, but sure do enjoy over fighting for the charter table scraps during peak vacation times. I'm afraid I have to agree with everyone who shared the justifications for the why's of their dream.
> 
> Do I own ? Yes. Paid cash, VERY affordable slippage, and maintenance.
> She's a small boat, won't be making any transpacs, and IS available everyday, rain or shine, planned, or on short notice and can and does serve as a comfortable weekender. She's one year younger than I am, but she's in better shape.
> Will I charter? Yes, once a year in the US/BVI's and at least once a year in the San Juans (although trailering my baby up there hasn't been ruled out) until I pull the trigger on my 10 year plan and acquire my own 36'-46' cruiser and pay transient fees and the occasional passage fees to move her through the canal while I cruise until she won't float anymore.


Thank you, although on the first line, I posted the whole article here, I didn't make anybody click on my blog at all, so I don't know what more I could have done to make it less "infomercial"-like?

But the rest of your post is exactly why I wrote the piece. YOU are charting a good course to not bite off more than you can chew nor treading water just trying to afford a boat in a slip. I really appreciate that you are doing as I mentioned as an example... I hope you have some wonderful charters! I've sailed through the canal with friends before... it was a lot different than I imagined... but thats a topic for a whole nother post.



CalebD said:


> I say cut old Capt. Fred some slack. His basic premise is true: boats are expensive. This is not news to most everyone here though.
> Happy New Year.


Thank you thank you  I think its interesting that some are reacting so strongly to it but I understand some of the thought that I am "ruining" peoples dreams with this. I don't believe thats true and if you see the comments from a couple of the posters in quotes above I think people would see that there is a lot of value in knowing in what you're getting into. terryjoe is a sailor that was told that boats are a money bit. He changed his approach, he didn't cancel his dream. I think thats enough proof for me. Have a happy new year to you too 



seawitch1906 said:


> I have no idea what is the reason dear "captain" to post this accounting jewel of yours ...?
> try to steer away anyone who dreaming to go sailing?
> no one here ever purchased a boat for any rational reason BUT FOR THE LOVE of this wonderful lifestyle ..
> why rain an our parade ?
> 
> with your SO detailed summary .. you should perhaps paddle on other site like .. "accountant central," or "life is misery " but please stop poring this cold water on our neck ...
> 
> glass is all empty for you all the time? I feel sorry for you , and your "revelation" is pointless at least here it is.
> NO.... sailing is not expensive .. missed out on life IS


Hi seawitch. No, none of that is accurate, but thanks for posting.



hellosailor said:


> "Its meant to provide some " traffic to Fred's web site, is all it is.
> 
> He forgot that most of us earn big bucks from sponsors for our boats, only fools SPEND money on sailing. Every time that big PEPSI logo on my spinnaker makes it onto a TV spot, KA-CHING, another four-figure deposit hits my offshore account.
> 
> :laugher
> 
> Beats all hell out of the pennies per hit that Fred gets for the ads on his web site.


The ads, I hope, will pay for the hosting. They aren't yet. If you notice, I posted the ENTIRE article here, and didn't make anyone click on anything. You don't want to come to my blog, don't, I guess you don't need my advice, but thanks for posting here all the same.



bljones said:


> Funny that this thread came up, as I am just tallying up my boat expenses for our first year of ownership. My numbers are a little different from yours- size does matter.


Indeed it does, and thank you for posting that breakdown. Everyone's cost is going to be different based on location, condition of the boat when purchased, whether your slip has luxuries or is basically some floating wood with a cleat (my marina Im currently in is great - showers, store, secured, etc).



bljones said:


> My point is, sailing is as expensive as you want to make it. ... However, sense and sailing rarely seem to collide in the same sentence.


True on both counts. Thanks.



painkiller said:


> I just went over to Capt. Fred's blog, and I found this entry:
> 
> Not cool. And here's another one:
> 
> Can you believe this guy?? And it goes back further, too:


You need to stop taking so many painkillers.



GaryHLucas said:


> I have a boat I paid $6500 for, that originally cost $36,000 but to buy her new today would cost about $80,000. Funny thing is, everything I buy, from the slip to parts is priced for the $80,000 boat!


That's an EXCELLENT POINT, and again, probably something you didn't count on going in. But I buy almost everything I can used, so I don't run into that problem much. I wish I had put that in the article. What kind of a boat did you buy?



smackdaddy said:


> Cap'nFred - hang in there dude. At least you came back to address to the "points" others have made. That shows guts. Welcome to Sailnet.
> 
> I asked earlier - but what are the typical rough costs of chartering so that an apples-to-apples comparison can be made here?


Thank you!

I'm working on an article that tries to lay that out.

In short, it completely depends on where you want to go. You have to factor in transportation, boat size, cost-of-living, regional pricing structure, bareboat or not, etc. Lots to consider. I promise to post it here and hopefully some have their own cost breakdowns to add or they have good advice on where to get a charter.

----

By the way, I don't see it anymore but for the guy who said I was selling something, I'm not. I built the 74 footer you see in my avatar from scratch and chartered her out of Long Beach and Newport, but I haven't been in that business for 30 years nor do I want to be. I do see it to be a bargain though in the longrun for those that can afford the charter or could split it with someone.

Thanks again, looking forward to many more discussions!


----------



## wolfshead13

CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> Hey, I want to know more about that Telstar in your sig!
> 
> Regarding your post...
> 
> I think I said plainly what my point was above. I want for dreamers and people reading my advice blog to prepare themselves before they commit to their dream and have it go upside down quickly, like I see all the time in SoCal marinas. I've seen it for decades... its always the same story: they don't understand the costs or the commitment and they bail within a year or two, especially when the wife starts complaining about her mall money going to waste on their "mistress".
> 
> .


Besides normal maintence my annual costs are $2200.00 cdn in slip and starage fees and last year fuel was way up, it actually cost $45.00 cdn to get in and out of the marina (we have a power in and out only rule). Normal maintence came in at less than my jeep for a year. Quite acceptable to both the wife and myself since she always knows where to find me when the ice is off the lake and when she wants a getaway I'm always up for it.


----------



## thesnort

I hope you stick around, Fred. Your first post has become an instant classic. Looking forward to an encore.


----------



## SJ34

I know the boat is expensive, I'm the one writing the checks. I just need to keep the admiral from figuring that out. SO KNOCK IT OFF!!!


----------



## camaraderie

My take on this is that Capn' Fred is a nice ol' guy with a fair amount of experience in and around boats and is NOT looking to profit from his website but merely to share his own opinions and experience with others out of a desire to be helpful. The ads on his blog are simply wordpress's way of making money. 
I find some of his opinions to be way off base based on my own experience...but that is why we argue and post here. Others I heartily agree with. 
Welcome Fred.


----------



## Lostmt

> Indeed it does, and thank you for posting that breakdown. Everyone's cost is going to be different based on location, condition of the boat when purchased, whether your slip has luxuries or is basically some floating wood with a cleat (my marina Im currently in is great - showers, store, secured, etc). But still, I think $100/day to own a 23 footer is still a pretty serious cost that maybe someone doesn't anticipate. Thats all I was trying to get across.


I'm sorry I don't see where it cost $100/day to own a 23 footer. Me I couldn't hardly afford a quarter of that figure. My total income is SS and I own a 22 footer. A life long dream. Started back when I was a kid and my mother and I would talk about sailing around the world. My dad built sailboats in N.O. before WWII and never touch another boat after he came home, died in 59. mom passed in 63.

Sure this month I am set back some. Didn't buy a single Christmas present. I gave them to me what Christmas is all about. A little 4 letter word. Love Some nice person stole my 82 motor off her and I had to buy another used motor.

Spending my last years sailing with my wife to me is priceless. Anchor out dinghy in and walk the beach in the sunset. Priceless. Memories that she will treasure long after I'm gone. Priceless. She's 14 years younger than me. I wouldn't go back to the 18/20 hr days working on a ranch for Gates income.

Point is. We all have our reason to sail and we can do it as cheap or expensive as we choose.

My slip fee is $93.00 per month with a bunch of great dock mates. Nothing fancy but nice.

Fair winds


----------



## WaterView

Captain Fred, Welcome to Sailnet. 
Don't take some of these guys to heart. They treat most new people the same way. It's their way of welcoming you to the site and hoping that you stick around.


----------



## petmac

Owning a boat is expensive. Yes it is.
Depreciation 30 % first year, 20 % second year. Thats a pretty general statement. Not so for all boats.


----------



## SimonV

I live on my boat so the marina fee of $5280 is in theory, nil as I would have to pay rent if I lived on land. I have allowed $4000 per year for maintenance and in the first year it has cost me less than $1000. This coming year I need 1. one tiller pilot @ $500. 2. five single block @ $69 = $345. 3. one double block @ $102. Haul out and bottom paint @ $1000 and maybe a roll and tip top sides paint at the same time $400.(diy) total $2347 If I can keep it at this I will be happy.


----------



## smackdaddy

TxLnghrn said:


> Fred,
> 
> Nor am I an accountant. I mentioned the potential tax opportunities as an aside. The majority of my post dealt with a faulty premise in your original assumptions re: the cost of ownership. Yes boat ownership is costly, but these costs can be mitigated and/or justified if we compare them to the cost of chartering or for that matter therapy.
> I agree with you that a neglected boat is a waste, I have said this in another post. If you indeed came to Sailnet with the intent to help educate future boat owners, thank-you and welcome to Sailnet. I'm sure you will find this community receptive and educational. But if you came with the intent of boosting your blog hits....You can see where that path will take you from the previous responses.
> 
> Michael


Ouch, does that mean you lost the bet you made in the AFOC thread?

Receptive and educational. Yep. The AFOCs strike again.


----------



## Danny33

Right On Captn Fred..

Im selling my boat now ....I did not relize untill now how living dreams cost so much !


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## therapy23

CFG,

Here is a recent (this fall) figure for chartering a 34ft cat for 7 nights out of the Ft. Myers area, 2 1/2 hrs from home.

Boat, insurance (required), trip cancel insurance 2739.00

We did not factor food because it is about the same as our local stores. More for beer though. 

The worst part, except for having to return on a schedule (last day motoring against head wind and tide = yuk) was hauling all the stuff off the boat up to the car. It seemed so much easier when we were loading the boat  even though there was a lot more food and beer on the "to" trip.

I have been figuring what I would like to have and never will, but if I become a little realistic then a realistic figure for me to own and keep this same boat would cost about 10k a year. So I could charter 2-3 times a year.

If I owned the boat I could use (does working on it and scrubbing it count?) it a lot more than that in the same general area/type of sailing.

One bit of data for you.


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## CalebD

Y'all better lay off Cap'n Fred, ya' bunch of disagreeable disagree-ers! If it is web hits he wants then he shall probably get them. I tend to agree with Cam that he is prolly just a good ole sailor who is trying to share something with the web-public. Hey, at least he is as web savvy as Al Gore but does not claim to have invented the internet!
As others have mentioned, I too take issue with the 'depreciation schedule' CFG laid out. I suspect that his numbers are closer for new boat buyers. We bought our 35 year old Tartan (1969) around 2002 for $4K. Was there any depreciation left to depreciate? I doubt it, in fact the thought never occurred to me that I could depreciate a 35 year old sailboat. Depreciation is for people who buy stuff that is brand new or close to it. I can only hope that one day I will still own a 'Classic Plastic' vintage sailboat that is in good enough shape to get more for it then we paid for it.
That said, Cap'n Fred speaks the truth that there are a lot more costs that some people may not think about (SeeWhich? not withstanding - I think someone peed on her Cheerios). After owning and maintaining 'this old boat' for 6 years I can safely say that we have spent about $16K between mooring/wintering/repairing and minor upgrades - and we do all the work ourselves. That seems to work out to about $2500 per year including (cheap) club dues.
If I had to figure out a dollar amount for every day sail or longer trip I am sure that I would probably gag but I do it because I love owning, caring for and sailing my own boat and that in and of itself is priceless (as stated previously). It seems that I also own 2 smaller sailboats so I am a real glutton for punishment but the costs of operating the smaller boats are significantly less per year then a keel boat which cannot be easily trailered.
As for the rest of you nattering Nabobs of negativity, get a life. Cap'n Fred was just passing along his subjective experience to people who might actually benefit from his experience. His numbers may not add up but his heart (and words) are in the right place.
I think I am gonna' need a few painkillers after this.


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## sailingdog

Simon—

Don't forget what an airline ticket from SFO to OZ would have set you back.


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## poopdeckpappy

So after reading all this I pulled out my refit log, tallied it up and it came to a total of $7,300.00 add to that $15,100.00 for slip fees & insurance and I have a grand total for 2008 of $22,400.00.

Now that's roughly what I figured I'd spend over the next 5 yr period until I was complete (to our satisfaction) with the boat, but in reality it may remain this amount and maybe more.

Now here's the funny part, ( well, I think it is ) my wife is sitting here knitting me this *****'n sweater, she just got up for another cup of coffee, walked by and asked what that was, I said it's what we spent last year on the boat and slip fees.

She return to her knitting ( while watching Ironman ) and didn't say a word, a few minutes later she said " that's not to bad " and I just smiled, 

She said, " remember, this is our home and lifestyle, OURs and it sure beats the 100,000 you spent racing them stupid dirtbikes "

I just smiled some more, ................if she only knew :laugher :laugher 


Is owning a sailboat expensive ??...............I don'tknow, what do ya want to campare it too ??


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## TSOJOURNER

guys, guys, i'm just new to the scene, love boats, looking to get a fixer upper and outfit it on the cheap, and know nothing about anything other than i can do fiberglass, epoxy, paint, weld, wire and fernagle about anything together except diesel engines. anyway, getting the skinny on the pros and cons puts my mind at ease about all the unknowns. i'm looking at some older boats, so depreciation doesn't factor in much, but i don't want to wind up with an unanticipated repair, or major issue that knocks me out of the picture. so its good to hear the worst about what can be. good to be informed. if the truth scares you back onto the sofa, maybe you don't have the heart to be worthy to ply the seas.


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## camaraderie

Welcome aboard and remember...Dead birds tell no tales!


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## Danny33

Mr. Cotton, Its what you make of it .
Steak or hamburger...What do you really want.

If its in your heart ,you follow thru . The doors always open to travel into.
Good luck to you ,Its all a learning experence !


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## WaterView

Welcome to Sailnet. I used to want a boat, but no more. I can't afford it. You came to the right place, these guys know their stuff.


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## SimonV

sailingdog said:


> Simon-
> 
> Don't forget what an airline ticket from SFO to OZ would have set you back.


SD, that was the best AU$1400 I have ever spent. Just look at what it gave me the opertunity to do...and yes I may do it all over again. My mum says otherwise.


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## bubb2

Hey Simon, Good to see you mate!! I was just watching a TV show about the making of your money down under and how it is printed on a Polymer film.

Plastic money, Simon I would rethink this. Just look at the US now and how we got in to trouble with plastic money. LOL


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## sailingdog

Bubb-

Our money isn't printed on plastic...it's printed on silly putty... 


bubb2 said:


> Hey Simon, Good to see you mate!! I was just watching a TV show about the making of your money down under and how it is printed on a Polymer film.
> 
> Plastic money, Simon I would rethink this. Just look at the US now and how we got in to trouble with plastic money. LOL


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## SimonV

Its 12.30am here January 1 2009, happy new year.


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## sailingdog

Happy New Year Simon... and to Hartley, TDW and the rest of you upside down folks...


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## camaraderie

Way to get a head start on 2009 Simon and assorted marsupials!! The early bird catches the dingo! Party on!!


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## mikehoyt

While my experience the numbers are not the same it is good sober advice for anyone thinking of getting into boating. I rather doubt anyone will get to this point in the thread but here goes my example.

1979 niagara 26. Paid $14300. Sold 7 years later for $16750. Spend $1600 / year on marina fees, insurance,etc.... Total spent over the 7 years easily more than cost of boat - including 3 sails, instruments, cushions, hardware, maintenance. Not including marina fees probably spent just under $10000 on upgrades and maintenance. So cost of ownership something like $3000 per year after selling.

I also ski. Three sails cost me just over $5000 and i believe are still being enjoyed by current owners 5 years later. If thrown away today would be $1000 per year but suspect will get 8 years out of them.
Skis cost typically $1000 / pair for decent set at a discount. They need to be replaced every 3 - 4 years for any avid skier and no less than every two years for a racer. Only one person enjoys the ski at a time. We have 4 persons - 2 racing (2 pair each) so count on $3000 / year in cost of skis alone ... much worse than buying sails.....

Sorry for the long story. Simplified to me is how my father explained it to me. For a motorhome or boat put 10% of purchase price aside for maintenance each year - and that is for newer items. For old used stuff like boats expect 10% of what a newish version of the boat would cost. For a 26 footer that would be at least $3000 / year.

Oh - and remember that in boating it is usually the entertaining costs that are just as much ....

Mike


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## N0NJY

hellosailor said:


> Eh, painkiller?
> Anyone who claims to have been blogging, much less running a web site of any kind in 1992, must be Al Gore in drag.
> 
> 1992? Internet? Ahuh, sure, plenty of private access and sites on the Internet in 1992.<G>


Hahahaha.

I have been running FORUMS and BBSES with forums on this since 1982!

And I was there when the internet started, and before - and I think Algore is a dumbass.  No such thing as Global Warming (It's really called GloBULL Warming).

But, blogging is pretty new. It's really only been around a few years.

Forums and BBSes however have been around a lot longer. Anyone remember what a "dialup" modem is, running at 300 baud?

hahahaha


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## N0NJY

I'm a new boat owner. My first boat hasn't hit the water yet.

She cost me $3500 out of the starting blocks.

Insurance is $100 bucks a year (covers the trailer, the boat, damage on the road, or sinking right now... but, it's going to be in lakes and inland waters, not the ocean).

The existing rudder and tiller - while they will work fine as is - are fixed and seem to be the wrong sort for the boat. Also the rudder appears to have been broken. While it will work, I spent $800 on an Idasailor rudder and kickup assembly (I'll be in shallow waters, don't want to break anything the first time out you know!)

I bought some material, thread and seamstick - $33 dollars, for repairs to the jib.

I bought some stain and varnish. $12 bucks.

Got my registration for the boat (state) $30.25.

License plates for the trailer plus new registration $35.00

Two new padlocks - $10.00

I need to get a yearly pass to the park where we will take the boat on the lake. I think it was $70.00 per year.

No slip fees (since I'll trailer the boat). At least for now.

Total so far is $4590.25

I still need to replace some lights... 

That'll be around $200 total for lighting, wiring and some hardware.

I need to do some physical labor on replacing stuff - but have all the supplies, wood, glue, everything else I need laying in my workshop in the garage. So cost there but time.

So... by the time I count in the gasoline to haul the boat to the lake and the 200 bucks, I am still under 5K for a nice little boat that I can sail in the spring.

Now, if you want to start counting things like airline tickets to get to my classes, the class costs for two people and all that - well, that's put it up close to 10K so far.

And I haven't even sailed the boat yet.

But - so what? I budgeted twice that amount for learning to sail and getting a small boat to practice sailing. 

Thus, I'm 50% under budget.

Now... where does it come out that this is important? If I didn't have a job and we were living hand-to-mouth every week, I'd think that necessities like eating and having a place to live would be the priority. I have at least one daughter and son-in-law who live that way.

And yes, I help them out. But, I refuse to SUPPORT them. They can get their asses out there and work and LIVE hand to mouth until they get the hang of life (they are in the mid 20s now). 

The rest of the "inheritance money" is what my wife and I plan on spending. We didn't raise the kids and save money so we could croak and leave if for their asses. We saved money for OURSELVES to enjoy life, finally.

So - honestly, what difference does it make how much it costs. If you live within your budget, you make the BEST out of life, who cares how much it costs?

Who cares if someone doesn't care for their boat like, say, the REST of us WILL?

Those who don't care for their boat, probably didn't care for their children, dogs, cars or whatever else in life they thought they valued.

Ladies and gentlemen... Life is bloody hell SHORT. Do the things you enjoy, and get the most out of them. (Certainly stick to your budget as best you can, and understand that bad times come up, and bad things happen.... that's what insurance is for!)

Rick


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## N0NJY

Danny33 said:


> Mr. Cotton, Its what you make of it .
> Steak or hamburger...What do you really want.
> 
> If its in your heart ,you follow thru . The doors always open to travel into.
> Good luck to you ,Its all a learning experence !


A lot of people forget that "hamburger" used to be steak.. and umm.. other parts. 

LOL


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## seawitch1906

*Cap' Fred you missing the point entirely and keep doing it*

I'm keep reading about crunching numbers, more or less , expense lists,difficult matrix-es, monetary so called logical raster's... ans it still amazes me .. You call your self a sailor ,yet giving advices unsolicited ..
Try to "noble up" your agenda with your "warning" to the naivete ...or just parade around your superior fiscal talent ..I don't know ..but I do now one thing ..
If we make every step our life a rational planned calculated step by step ..well then life become unbearable..
If we don't learn to dream and realize dreams against odds,and let be illogical , and wide eyed sometimes , then you are a champion of the misery what follow your list of lists . 
most of us will ignore your "Armageddon" but if one  single newcomer will stop to become a sailor .. then you caused harm fr all of us .. and most for that guy who will miss out an sailing , smelling the salt air , be alone on the water, learn to enjoy , feel alive, be independent, and LIVE ..

if Your stick in mud (at best) downer post causes that .. then I and (others I'm sure) will would like to see you with your post look for brownie points in a less harmful place ..like "site for the dreamless" , or "bean counter extreme "

I will keep poor money in the water, hang on hock some place and happy I never met you .. nothing personal ..I like dreamers, you like ill fated logic ..
sailing expensive ? what is expensive ? to be alive ?

ta ta


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## Yamsailor

Here are my two cents.

I sail for pleasure and I also do Captained charters as well as teach sailing. In my opinion, it comes down to how often one uses the boat. If you are on the boat 2 or 3-days a week--cruising, I think it makes sense to own. On the other hand if you don't have the time to use the boat more than 3 days or so a month or only have time for day sailing, then I think it makes sense to either 1) Join a fractional sailing/ownership arrangement OR buy a 28-30 foot used boat for day sailing and charter where ever like OR 3) join a community sailing club where you can sail at a much lower cost.

I think the cost of boat ownership has increased so high that one really has to look at the cost/benefit in terms of dollars/use (enjoyment.) 

IMHOP--The future of sailing lies with community sailing programs, fractional ownership (e.g., the new benneteau program and no I am not a boat dealer nor do I own a fractional sailing business.) Sailboating will come to a demise (except for the very wealthy) if we do not enable the future generations to be able to enjoy this sport/lifestyle. The next generation --Gen Xers and Yers will not have the time nor a lot of disposable income the previous generations enjoyed. The industry really needs to start thinking about marketing to the Gen X and Y crowd if they want to maintain future business.


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## seawitch1906

*wrong , as any statement wrong most the time*

[

IMHOP--The future of sailing lies with community sailing programs, fractional ownership (e.g., the new benneteau program and no I am not a boat dealer nor do I own a fractional sailing business.) Sailboating will come to a demise (except for the very wealthy) if we do not enable the future generations to be able to enjoy this sport/lifestyle. The next generation --Gen Xers and Yers will not have the time nor a lot of disposable income the previous generations enjoyed. The industry really needs to start thinking about marketing to the Gen X and Y crowd if they want to maintain future business.[/QUOTE]


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## Yamsailor

Wrong? Why Wrong? I didn't know an opinion can be wrong---it is my opinion.


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## seawitch1906

*Yamsailor*

I believe the gen x and y and Z do have the time .. only use that time .. pounding on keyboard, busy with urban dwelling, have absolute abstinence to do something with they hand .. nor stop for a moment and look "up"

they have the income but they spend on the all mother of gadgets, phones, computers,bigger TV, more noise makers, less books less anything but a mighty technology 
you don't have to be wealthy , just imaginative,and willing to exposed to other then sit in Starbucks, 
It is not the money, not the lock of time it is a UN ability to live ...

Educate , expose, and lure in people is our job ..as I see the need .

sailing clubs, sailing events , "Go boating" programs .. get those atrophy laden,white skin gen x y z and get them wet !

never the money ..always the mind set

cheers


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## knothead

seawitch1906 said:


> [
> 
> IMHOP--The future of sailing lies with community sailing programs, fractional ownership (e.g., the new benneteau program and no I am not a boat dealer nor do I own a fractional sailing business.) _Sailboating will come to a demise (except for the very wealthy)_ if we do not enable the future generations to be able to enjoy this sport/lifestyle. The next generation --Gen Xers and Yers will not have the time nor a lot of disposable income the previous generations enjoyed. The industry really needs to start thinking about marketing to the Gen X and Y crowd if they want to maintain future business.


[/quote]

Sailing for the average man will never die. As long as there is water, trees and freedom. Men will sail.


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## Yamsailor

Well,

I know a lot of Xers who work 60-70 hours a week and have to save for their childrens college educations, retirement and pay the bills. Of course these are the ones that still have a job. 

As I said earlier and based on one of your statements I think you agree with me--there needs to be opportunities to 1)) Join a fractional sailing/ownership arrangement OR buy a 28-30 foot used boat for day sailing and charter where ever like OR 3) join a community sailing club where you can sail at a much lower cost.

I do agree with you with regards to tastes-in-interests. These people do need to be exposed and I agree we all have a responsibility to that AND the entire sailing community (private, public, business etc) need to make it easy for these people to become exposed to the sport.


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## seawitch1906

*but of course*

I'm very much agree with you on that ..and yes we all know people who work all the time , and yes responsibility and all ..but we also know those happy people who take those kids get a boat and cast of for years ( no better education than that)

the willingness is the key .. this subculture of of the "chic geek " generation, do more harm to the soul then any other I believe

we all had hard time one way or the other, baby boomer ( like myself) had our challenges, but we read, we sailed we had callus on our hand and we can live with a rabbit ear TV (for now) .. priority is the key

You being a charter skipper ..must seen a lot metamorphosis on some charter folks..

exposure , and love of the way live as a sailor .. what people missing out on


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## TSOJOURNER

He's right in omly one line -- boating is expensive. What pleasure in life is not? Wife is expensive - kids are expensive - but could I or most of the rest of you imagine life without them? The only good thing I see in his advice is to charter a few times. No, that won't be cheap either, but you will learn whether or not sailing is somethingon which you might want to spend your money. When you decide you love it, buy the best boat you can afford, knowing full well that your annual cost will be double what you estimated. If you don't love it, buy a bigger T V and become a couch potato! LIVE!
My experience is that the bigger the boat, the more it costs with an exponential increase! The keelboat I now have not only is not trailerable, I can't even get it out of the water in our marina! She weighs 21000 lbs, the marina has a crane with a lift capacity of 15000. 8 miles upriver there is a power boat marina with a 60 ton travel lift. They can't lower my mast, it has to be done by the crane in our harbor. We had a lousy year for sailboats here last year, due to two floods, so we only used her 5-6 weekends. But I would not be without it!


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## TSOJOURNER

djodenda said:


> The reality is that boat ownership isn't expensive or inexpensive, it's PRICELESS. I can't imagine being without one.
> 
> David


David, that's the wisest thing that's been said in this thread (though I haven't read it yet to the end - my apologies to any other wise ones out there... )


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## sailingdog

Rick-

I've got an old Andersen Jacobsen 110 baud acoustic coupler around here someplace... 


N0NJY said:


> Anyone remember what a "dialup" modem is, running at 300 baud?
> 
> hahahaha


----------



## tweitz

I agree that owning a boat is expensive. I also agree that it is priceless. I usually plan things out with care, but one thing I learned early on is that I *never *try to make a spreadsheet which calculates my sailing cost per hour. 
We went to the boat show in Annapolis a couple of years ago and fell in love with a boat. It was a lot of money to me, and I hesitated, and my wife, bless her soul, said "If not now, when?" We spent more than I could have imagined, and it was some of the best money we have ever spent. We get more pleasure out of "just messing about with boats," than almost anything else. The OP is right, newbies can naively mistake the purchase price for the cost of owning a boat. But if you have the great luck of being able to afford it, sailing is wonderful and I love the fact that our boat is really ours.

All that said, our biggest cost was buying and maintaining the house whcih provides us the dock. Makes the boat look pretty cheap.


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## merc2dogs

sailingdog said:


> Rick-
> 
> I've got an old Andersen Jacobsen 110 baud acoustic coupler around here someplace...


 I remeber moving up from one of the old couplers to a hayes 300, made a huge difference in making a connection and seemed like it was just plain FAST.
Now I look at some of the stuff I download just to check out, that would have taken a couple months of full time downloading back then.

Ken.


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## Yamsailor

Generally,

I have found the change in the 45+ crowd. There are a few people who get interested in sailing who are 20 and 30 somethings however they represent a small percentage.

From my sailing instruction experience, I have found approximately 20% of the students to be under 40; The rest to be 48 and over. I seem not to get a lot of students in the 40-48 yo range. I do not know why that is --it just is.


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## camaraderie

Yam...I'm sure your %'s are close on those who go for instruction. I am thinking that most "youngsters" who get involved are cash strapped and more inclined to buy a copy of "sailing for dummies" and just get out there and learn with friends on their own. I am thinking of those under 30 at our docks here and I don't believe any of them have ever taken a formal lesson...yet they are out there sailing and working on their boats.


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## JimsCAL

Sailing can be expensive, but there are ways to reduce the costs. I figure my basic costs (yacht club dues, winter storage, insurance) run about $3000 for my 30 footer. I do almost all my own maintenance. Last season I was on the boat over 60 days including over 25 days cruising overnight. On my annual 2+ week cruise I anchor out (no slip fees!) and total out-of-pocket costs were under $300 for fuel, ice, meals out etc. Where else can you go on vacation for that!! Since the boat was bought used, and I've owned it for almost 20 years, depreciation is only a few hundred dollars per year. Not bad.


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## Arunas

Sailing it is not a money it live style, if you are thinking about money, depreciation, better not to start sail. I am sailing 32 year. For my friends I suggest better to rent yacht for summer it will cost less. Becouse it like drags.
Arunas


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## k1vsk

this is your brain on drags (sic).


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## Yamsailor

I do not dispute sailing costs a lot of money nor do I dispute that it is worth it if you like or love the sport/lifestyle. For the situation here in the mid-atlantic/north east--The bottom line is the average financial resources available for this lifestyle or for anything requiring disposable income is decreasing. This is a fact on the ground. Furthermore, in my opinion, I believe this will be the situation for the foreseeable future.


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## TSOJOURNER

A charter vessel is a prostitute of the seas - available to anyone with sufficient cash, aging rapidly and of suspect integrity.

My boat is faithful to me, available to no-one else regardless of how much cash they wave about, and I know every inch of her to be strong and unsullied.


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## Yamsailor

I agree...and your point is?


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## pjboots

I personally have my eye on a 30+ CC which is being neglected right now! I hope to get a great price on it. 
Let’s face it all activities cost money. Biking, hiking, cars, skiing, golf you name it you’re not going to make money doing any of these things but ultimately it is about gaining experience. People who buy boats because of a dream and then realize the dream is not what they expected are gaining as much experience as the people who fall in love with the sport; it's just a different kind of experience... Maybe it's not them though; may I suggest it might be the wife who won't go sailing... Besides I got my boat for a great price because some one fell out of love with it. The world needs dreamers and realists.


PJ


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## sab30

Yamsailor said:


> I do not dispute sailing costs a lot of money nor do I dispute that it is worth it if you like or love the sport/lifestyle. For the situation here in the mid-atlantic/north east--The bottom line is the average financial resources available for this lifestyle or for anything requiring disposable income is decreasing. This is a fact on the ground. Furthermore, in my opinion, I believe this will be the situation for the foreseeable future.


If you think owning a boat is expensive wait until you change boats...thats where the real financial hit comes...selling brokerage fees, delivery costs, crystalized depreciation...my lesson was better learn fast what you want cause playing "flip this boat" could send you to the poor house...


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## TSOJOURNER

If everyone could afford to sail then the sea would be completely overrun and we'd have to find some other way of gaining solitude...


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## sailingdog

Nothing a crate of ammo and a Barrett .50 cal couldn't fix...  Limpet mines help too. 



Sailormann said:


> If everyone could afford to sail then the sea would be completely overrun and we'd have to find some other way of gaining solitude...


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## xhawk101

um, gen x sailor here, and love taking my technology sailing with me- autopilot, etc.

did fractional sailing for 3 yrs since time does not always allow many days per mo.

I think future (of sailing) is bright since it is "green" and now we know global warming is NOT bull (unless u are under the faux propaganda spell.)


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## camaraderie

Global warming is bull. We've got about a thousand pages here on it in off topic. Do some research instead of believing the crap science the media throws at you. 
Nothing wrong with being green for the right reasons. Welcome aboard.


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## xhawk101

as I said, the faux propaganda spell has been cast!


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## N0NJY

CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> That's my advice, on my blog. I'm only advertising it in my sig because I want to give my advice on what to buy. You disagree.
> 
> I mean its amazing, nobody has said my expenses were wrong or that it doesn't cost a lot to own a sailboat and yet a few have such a negative reaction to telling dreamers that information exactly? You'd rather just let those people walk into the propeller blade so that someone can pick up a neglected boat out of a distress sale? Thats just incredible. Thats exactly why I started my blog, hopefully people don't walk into the propellor, they are WARNED THAT THEY COULD, and they take a proper course of action, thats all. Sorry you disagree that I should do that.


No one is actually disputing your expenses. They are "what they are". They are for all of us. I'm a NEW sailor, haven't even put the boat in the water yet. I've already spent (somewhat less than) 10K. My wife and I intially laid out a cost of around 20K for everything from training to buying a first boat.

We're 50% below that and I don't expect any more major expenses until I go to get a bigger boat.

We're working out a budget for that now... and do not expect to actually purchase a boat for at LEAST a year, perhaps three more. So, it's kind of up in the air at the moment. Things could change.

MY issue with your post was the way you directed your message to "All you dreamers".....

THAT's where I have the problem.

Life is complex enough in this day and age for us all, Internet, Satellite TV, GPSes, text messaging, cars with computers that won't start when the battery voltage.

My wife and I are really several years from "retirement". Our "dream" was discussed once or twice some thirty years ago - then life happened, children, major medical issues with some of the kids forcing year long hospital stays, the death of a child, moving constantly for 20 years, finally settling one place, about as freakin' far in the US as you can get from an ocean.

The dream was there in both our heads, but we never really again discussed going sailing, traveling the world or getting out of Colorado. I was resigned to the fact I'd be settling down in "Little House on the Prairie" where my kids and grand kids could come visit me, ride a horse or milk a cow, or shoot some guns, bows and arrows or simply have a good glass of home brew beer or mead.

Then, something clicked one day. My wife and I were discussing that "retirement" and when I asked her what she wanted to do, she said, "I'm not sure what I want to do, but I'll tell you what I DON'T want to do... that's just quit. Stop doing things. I want to travel. "

I asked her, "How would you like to sail?"

She said, "Absolutely. Yes. Let's do that."

There was a bit more discussion of course, about things like RVs and traveling the country and so on, but we both knew deep down that our love for the Caribbean would win out. So it was decided.

The dream, Sir, is becoming real for us, day by day. It's still a few years away, and I've got plenty of work to do - but I've not been sailing for sixty years like you - it's not something which I have "grown tired" or doing yet, and certainly it isn't something with which we've become jaded seeing others let their boats rot.

I've seen enough nonsense and crap, death and destruction in my life to last several lifetimes - and I want to do something *I* want to do, not "work for the government" or "be on call". I don't give a damned how much I end up spending and I don't really want someone to kick me in the gonads and tell me to "quit dreaming".

That's my gripe with you. And it's one I'll stand here and tell EVERYONE that you're wrong about.

You're wrong.

As others have already said in different ways, it's not the cost of doing something that you enjoy, rather it is the priceless memories and experiences you gain that make you a better person for what you're doing.

With that I'll tell you we'd decided on a name for the boat - from a Buffet song - and I'm certainly not (as most know) an Obama fan with his "Change" crap he pushed on the public... but the "Winds of Change" is the name of the boat and that's what it'll remain.

Rick


----------



## k1vsk

rhis whole discussion seems pretty silly. The term "expensive" is a relative one and no two people define it the same way. Also, not everyone has the same perception of value or money in general. Just because one person expresses his personal viewpoint doesn't make it either tight or wrong - just his.

What is wrong here is the apparent attempt for one person to apply his values on the rest of us.


----------



## N0NJY

sailingdog said:


> Rick-
> 
> I've got an old Andersen Jacobsen 110 baud acoustic coupler around here someplace...


Good grief, I didn't MENTION 110, cuz, you know people won't believe that it existed. lol

I still have one of those acoustic couplers in a "junk box" I use for... well, junk, when I need parts for something. Hahahhaa


----------



## smackdaddy

k1vsk said:


> this is your brain on drags (sic).


K1 - could you please repeat that in Croatian - off the top of your head?


----------



## Yamsailor

XHAWK101--

I am a Gen Xer here as well--haven't reached 40 yet but will in a few weeks. I Have been sailing since I was in my early twenties and boating since I was 9. I agree with your statements. The question I have for you, as a fellow Xer is this:

For the forseeable future: Do you envision owning a vessel or doing either of the fractional sailing or chartering or joining a community sailing club? What ever your answer--could you elaborate as to the reason(s) you chose your answer? I am curious.


----------



## N0NJY

Yamsailor said:


> Generally,
> 
> I have found the change in the 45+ crowd. There are a few people who get interested in sailing who are 20 and 30 somethings however they represent a small percentage.
> 
> From my sailing instruction experience, I have found approximately 20% of the students to be under 40; The rest to be 48 and over. I seem not to get a lot of students in the 40-48 yo range. I do not know why that is --it just is.


I mentioned Amateur Radio early on in the thread because of this very thing.

Like the Ocean, the Radio Spectrum is a natural resource that is used, and like the ocean, abused often.

The RF spectrum is "newer" than the ocean - simply because the technology to exploit it only was discovered around 1890, whereas people have been sailing apparently for many centuries. But, because of Amateur Radio operators we have MOST of the things you all enjoy today, including the computer screen and keyboard you're typing on.

Were it NOT for constantly bringing young people into the hobby of ham radio it would have died long, long ago. LIKE sailing, amateur radio has changed over the last 100+ years and technologies have changed as well.

Those same "Gen X" kids - my sons and daughters, texting away on their cellular phones and taking and emailing pictures with those same phones have only the inkling of what technology has wrought for them through those phones - few of my own kids and probably none of my grandchidren know what a "vacuum tube" is - let alone a rudder.

I can promise you all something though - my children and their children, and perhaps one day, some great grandchildren of MINE will know about BOTH amateur radio and sailing. My wife, like me is a ham radio operator. And like me she's planning on being the best sailor she can be.

We've never allowed simple lessons in life to pass by those kids - and we're not starting now (there was a knot-tying class at our son's house for everyone on Christmas day, which ended up being replayed on New Year's Eve... lol Wife is sneaky that way).

Already I've had several questions from one of the little ones, "Grandpa? When can we ride on your pretty boat?" - That one is such a doll, so next to me and my wife, she'll probably be first 

So - folks, my thinking is, Cap'n Fred came here, NOT to convince us to "let the dream go" or "that things are too expensive...." - perhaps he did come here to get his opinion across. And PERHAPS, like Santa Claus, he sneaked in, in the middle of the night to spark a few more dreams for some of you who are constantly whining about expensive this or that is 

Wake up and smell the coffee, ladies and gents. Methinks he is using some kind of retro-reverse-psychology on us all!

Rick


----------



## N0NJY

Sailormann said:


> If everyone could afford to sail then the sea would be completely overrun and we'd have to find some other way of gaining solitude...


Such as, say, moving to the mountains of Colorado? LOL

They are here too, believe me.


----------



## avoisine

Fred thanks for the advice. Al


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## Guzzi

Geez, I read only the first two pages and my head was spinning...that being said, I'll throw in my two cents, which is probably not worth that.
Anyway...

Buying a house is expensive, so I would suggest you rent!  

I guess I better sell my house...it's paid for.

Hey, then I can afford a sailboat!


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## SSBN506

I think what should be remembered is boating is as expensive as you make it. Much like anything. If you buy a new BMW Z4 you better be able to afford it. But just because you can’t afford a Z4 doesn’t mean you can’t have a car. I think his article should have been “Don’t by a boat you can’t afford there is more than the purchase price to consider”. 

I have a 25ft 1978 sailboat in a town with a population of less than 200,000 and one sailboat club with two locations on the river and one on a lake down the river. 

Cost
Boat $7500
Club membership $375 for the year (this includes a mooring)
Winter storage $200
Launch and hall out $120 per
Insurance $120 for the year.
Yearly engine checkup $250
Yearly sail checkup $250

So it cost me around 1315 + gass per year.

For some people that is nothing and for others it is a lot of money. Now move my boat to Toronto or Boston and the price will go up. Could go up big time. But people buy what they can afford. If all I could afford was a 8ft sailing dingy that is what I would have. If I could afford 42 ft Hunter I would have one. 

For me the act of sailing that you could also get from a charter is only part of it. I would say for me 50%. 50% sailing, 25% working on my boat 10% status 15% love of the water. 
My point is it is different for all people and we get what we can afford. For me I would rather own an old BMW or boat then Rent a new one.


----------



## SailChick20

Captain Obvious does have a valid point or two....it seems as though many people do tend to just jump in, before considering all costs and actual time available to use it. Fools in that category have made their own bed, IMO.

Pour moi, a GenX/Y...the cost is ridiculous, yes....but, I would pay much more to keep what I get back from sailing.

1. Friends I've met through it...that are true...willing to reciprocate help when needed (saves$!), and "get" what sailing gives you. There's nothing like sailing with friends who share your passion...often no need for words, just the wind.

2. A place to go. You know, those times when you just need to unwind...or be alone...or think? I've had days when it was too rough to go out alone...and just polished, tinkered around or read on the boat...and felt nearly as rejuvenated. When I have a bad day at work, all I can think about is how soon I can get out of the harbor (I'm lucky to be only 2 miles away..and able to sail 4-5 days/week).

3. Confidence/optimism that spills over into life. After a challenging day sailing, once I get back on the ball...I think to myself...you are an effing [email protected] for handling this today...and remember that when I'm feeling initimated or nervous in other situations. Maybe that's more of a benefit to being a woman that sails....

4. The equivalent to a lake cottage, but I don't have to drive through hours of gridlocked traffic to arrive there...plus, I can take my "cottage" to new places. 

Seriously, I think I could make this list pages long...but you all know what I mean. I would get another job if it meant I could keep my boat (and the pages of reasons, even if they don't make the greatest financial sense). If I were to have to move voluntarily, I would first look for an area that could accomodate my sailing. This is not something I ever want to be without...money issues or not.

Happy New Year, SN!
 
-Kristen


----------



## Yamsailor

Sailchick20

--I think your view is great.


----------



## Cope44

Ok here goes...

I always wanted a power boat.

A real fast one, with two engines. I grew up racing boats on the weekend with my folks. Flat bottom fast jet boats in the delta. I worked at the power boat expo, I worked at the big ocean races. I just knew in my heart I would someday own one, what ever the cost. I eventually moved away, and did not get any time on boats for a few years.
I live in a lake town and would sit on the beach with my friends and watch the power boats go by. The real sweet ones you can hear before you see em! I would tell my friends about how much fun it was, and how I will own one some day. Well time passes as it dose and I became fast friends with a guy who owned a sail boat. The boat had not been in the water in "forever". He was not even sure it would float. 
Well us power boaters All know sail boats are [email protected], But what the heck, it would get me out on the water. I would be a little closer to my dream boats. He had no interest in the boat or fixing it up. It was left to him in a will, and had sentimental value. Neither he, nor I knew how to sail.
A few stupid questions here, and a book, well more of a pamphlet really, from the used book store, A lot of elbow grease, a lot of fiberglass dust, A little bit of money, I do mean a little bit. The back registration was like $30.00. And now we sail on the lake and I no longer want a power boat, Ok, well maby a little bit.

As stated before any thing that gets you out there is what it's all about. 

I smile every time I look at the boat on the lawn, and THAT will never devalue.


Last but not least my friend now loves the boat and remembers it's previous owner every time we talk about it or take it out. The boat went from a eye sore to a proud vessel.

I guess what I'm trying to say is my boat has "gained value" in the eyes of at least two people.

Cope


----------



## N0NJY

> Last but not least my friend now loves the boat and remembers it's previous owner every time we talk about it or take it out. The boat went from a eye sore to a proud vessel.


And that's what it's all about.....

Thanks Cope.


----------



## imagine2frolic

COSTS? I don't have to worry about any stinking cost. An addict doesn't worry about cost.....JUST GIVE ME MY FIXuke .......give me 20 to 35 knots on the quarter with no land in sight, or an anchorage with a beautiful sunset! I'll pay anything, do anything, say anything, and be happy to be able to do so, and get my fix!!!!!!!!! It goes beyond reasoning.....It's an ADDICTION! ........i2f


----------



## Joesaila

*Price of living*

A boat is a hole in the water...I would not want to be without. Especially my sailboat. I can spend money on enjoying it, or leave the dough in a bank. While its better logic to always 'count the cost', I'm committed to enjoying life now.


----------



## bubb2

Was it not said, "if it were not for the the boat, I would just spend my money on women and booze."


----------



## seawitch1906

*amen for every word you wrote!*



N0NJY said:


> No one is actually disputing your expenses. They are "what they are". They are for all of us. I'm a NEW sailor, haven't even put the boat in the water yet. I've already spent (somewhat less than) 10K. My wife and I intially laid out a cost of around 20K for everything from training to buying a first boat.
> 
> We're 50% below that and I don't expect any more major expenses until I go to get a bigger boat.
> 
> We're working out a budget for that now... and do not expect to actually purchase a boat for at LEAST a year, perhaps three more. So, it's kind of up in the air at the moment. Things could change.
> 
> MY issue with your post was the way you directed your message to "All you dreamers".....
> 
> THAT's where I have the problem.
> 
> Life is complex enough in this day and age for us all, Internet, Satellite TV, GPSes, text messaging, cars with computers that won't start when the battery voltage.
> 
> My wife and I are really several years from "retirement". Our "dream" was discussed once or twice some thirty years ago - then life happened, children, major medical issues with some of the kids forcing year long hospital stays, the death of a child, moving constantly for 20 years, finally settling one place, about as freakin' far in the US as you can get from an ocean.
> 
> The dream was there in both our heads, but we never really again discussed going sailing, traveling the world or getting out of Colorado. I was resigned to the fact I'd be settling down in "Little House on the Prairie" where my kids and grand kids could come visit me, ride a horse or milk a cow, or shoot some guns, bows and arrows or simply have a good glass of home brew beer or mead.
> 
> Then, something clicked one day. My wife and I were discussing that "retirement" and when I asked her what she wanted to do, she said, "I'm not sure what I want to do, but I'll tell you what I DON'T want to do... that's just quit. Stop doing things. I want to travel. "
> 
> I asked her, "How would you like to sail?"
> 
> She said, "Absolutely. Yes. Let's do that."
> 
> There was a bit more discussion of course, about things like RVs and traveling the country and so on, but we both knew deep down that our love for the Caribbean would win out. So it was decided.
> 
> The dream, Sir, is becoming real for us, day by day. It's still a few years away, and I've got plenty of work to do - but I've not been sailing for sixty years like you - it's not something which I have "grown tired" or doing yet, and certainly it isn't something with which we've become jaded seeing others let their boats rot.
> 
> I've seen enough nonsense and crap, death and destruction in my life to last several lifetimes - and I want to do something *I* want to do, not "work for the government" or "be on call". I don't give a damned how much I end up spending and I don't really want someone to kick me in the gonads and tell me to "quit dreaming".
> 
> That's my gripe with you. And it's one I'll stand here and tell EVERYONE that you're wrong about.
> 
> You're wrong.
> 
> As others have already said in different ways, it's not the cost of doing something that you enjoy, rather it is the priceless memories and experiences you gain that make you a better person for what you're doing.
> 
> With that I'll tell you we'd decided on a name for the boat - from a Buffet song - and I'm certainly not (as most know) an Obama fan with his "Change" crap he pushed on the public... but the "Winds of Change" is the name of the boat and that's what it'll remain.
> 
> Rick


yes and yes ! that is my problem with this self elected lecturer ,[EDIT-JRP] .. if you read my prev posts.
When you stop dreaming mind is well put a bullet to your head 
I hope all your plan come to reality and spend that money ! go sailing 
wish you fair wind my friend

the Witch


----------



## TSOJOURNER

In buying a used boat, insist the seller provide both a marine and an engine survey , both to be acceptable to the buyer before closing the deal. 
Otherwise you can be exposed to some nasty and expensive surprises, incl. 
difficulty obtaining insurance. A one owner boat that has been very well
maintained are a big plus, and worth a premium.


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## hellosailor

A survey provided by the SELLER (or broker) is generaly considered to be worthless. A buyer wants a survey that is totally objective with no chance of collusion or intentional omission--and that means the surveyor should be chosen and hired by the BUYER, never the seller.


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## TSOJOURNER

All depends who you are dealing with, can only give you the Canadian 
prospective. A Marine Surveyor of impecable reputation, will not compromise this reputation with a less than professional and impartial survey. I'm sure you can find a lees than honest surveyor, but not easy to find here.


----------



## seawitch1906

*why invent the wheel all over again?*



match61 said:


> In buying a used boat, insist the seller provide both a marine and an engine survey , both to be acceptable to the buyer before closing the deal.
> Otherwise you can be exposed to some nasty and expensive surprises, incl.
> difficulty obtaining insurance. A one owner boat that has been very well
> maintained are a big plus, and worth a premium.


Whha what a wisdom .... isn't this "revelation" is a given ? why post when nothing to say ... ? sorry chap , but your post is like telling people if you don't breath in you will die ...
PS

reputable surveyors are non bias, and it is incorrect to say seller survey or brokers survey worth less ..not i the broker reputable, or the surveyor is a registered surveyor


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## Gramp34

Sorry for being late to the party.

TexasLongHorn -- I think you caught Capt'n Fred's major mistake. He's counted depreciation twice (and pretty high at that). Here's my take on his numbers:

Buy the boat:..................$20,000
5 years slip + insurance:....$16,000
Total cost:......................$36,000

Sell at end:....................-$14,500
Net cost:........................$21,500

Cost/year.........................$4,300

About the lowest price I've seen for a bareboat charter is $2500 per week, and if you fly your family to one of those great cruising grounds, you'd get about a week per year for this amount of money.

I look at this the other way. For the price of chartering for a single week, you can pay for your own boat that you can use any day you want for at least several months per year.

Yes, as Fred points out, you can reduce your costs by sharing a boat with others. But if you want to share a boat with others, buying a fractional share will get you a lot more sailing for a lot less money. Plus this way you don't have to spend your single sailing week per year with people you're only sailing with to save a buck.

Capt'n Fred -- I think your 20% estimate for depreciation is pretty severe. Powerboats and racing sailboats, maybe, family cruisers, definitely not. Here's some values for Catalina 36s I pulled out of the BUC book a year and a half ago:

Year........ Ave Retail... Loss per year... % per year
2006........ $130,750
2005........ $125,250........ $5,500........ 4%
2004........ $119,750 ........$5,500........ 4%
2003........ $114,000........ $5,750........ 5%
2002........ $108,000........ $6,000........ 5%
2001........ $101,650........ $6,350........ 6%
2000........ $95,550.......... $6,100........ 6%
1999........ $89,900.......... $5,650........ 6%
1998........ $84,300.......... $5,600........ 6%
1997........ $78,900.......... $5,400........ 6%
1996........ $73,650.......... $5,250........ 7%
1995........ $68,650.......... $5,000........ 7%
1994........ $63,900.......... $4,750........ 7%
1993........ $59,400.......... $4,500........ 7%
1992........ $55,600.......... $3,800........ 6%
1991........ $51,500.......... $4,100........ 7%
1990........ $48,050.......... $3,450........ 7%
1989........ $44,450.......... $3,600........ 7%
1988........ $41,150.......... $3,300........ 7%
1987........ $38,200.......... $2,950........ 7%
1986........ $35,450.......... $2,750........ 7%
1985........ $32,750.......... $2,700........ 8%
1984........ $33,050.......... ($300)........ -1%
1983........ $31,100.......... $1,950........ 6%
1982........ $25,800.......... $5,300........ 17%

It's easy to get a BUC or NADA book and trace back different boat models. It'd be even more accurate to calculate based on the initial purchase price rather than today's purchase price.

Cheers,

Tim


----------



## Gramp34

bljones said:


> Purchase price (all in, including tax, and survey): $6000.00
> (misc. costs omitted)
> New cradle: $1248
> Haulout costs and winter storage: $498
> Insurance: $175
> 
> Total $9995.75
> Number of days spent on boat: 98
> Number of nights spent on boat:36
> Number of miles sailed: 374 (we're not passagemakers...yet.)
> 
> So, I figure that it cost me just a little more than $100/ "boat day" to enjoy my boat this summer, without getting fancy with hypothetical depreciation calculations, forward calculating maintenance, deducting one time costs such as purchase price and cradle, etc.


Let me get fancy here. 

$9995.75 - $6000 boat - $1248 cradle = $2747.75 expenses the first year. (I expect your expenses next year will be less.)

Divided by 98 boat days gives $28.04 per day.

Not too shabby. 

Tim


----------



## CaptainFredGreenfield

camaraderie said:


> My take on this is that Capn' Fred...Welcome Fred.


Thank you very much. While I understand my advice is opinionated, I don't hide that, and yet I try to not give anyone _bad _ advice. Advising people thinking about boating, are dreaming about it but honestly have no idea how much it will cost, even for a small boat in a marina, is not necessarily going to make them want to rush out and buy a boat even more, but it is a warning, and I don't think its bad advice to consider. Thank you for the welcome. As for the ads, as I said, I posted the whole article here, there are no ads or anything here.

If anyone thinks I'm getting rich off the ads, I'm not, they don't even pay for the $10/mo I pay for web hosting, and that cost is going to go up because Im planning on adding video tutorials and such. I was hoping it would at least pay for the hosting.



WaterView said:


> Captain Fred, Welcome to Sailnet.
> Don't take some of these guys to heart. They treat most new people the same way. It's their way of welcoming you to the site and hoping that you stick around.


Thank you! This is nothing though. When I was depth charged in Singtao Harbor in '55 in a sub, they said that was just the Chinese welcoming us!



therapy23 said:


> One bit of data for you.


THANK YOU! Do you mind if I use these numbers and your quote in a chartering article I'm writing? They're pretty close to what I'm finding and I'd like to have a couple of personal examples to post as well.



CalebD said:


> Y'all better lay off Cap'n Fred.


Thank you  Never thought in a million years my advice would spark so many opinions to come out.. positive and negative. Its all great to see, and hopefully will make some people galvanize their desire to go sailing and just wear the costs.



poopdeckpappy said:


> ...Now that's roughly what I figured I'd spend over the next 5 yr period until I was complete (to our satisfaction) with the boat, but in reality it may remain this amount and maybe more.


Exactly, those costs can add up. I think anyone smart enough to set aside a budget to sail with is going to end up somewhere in good shape. Many people, however, simply can't afford 10 G's to get a sailboat ready to do some serious cruising. The point of the article is to get those people to commit their dream to the idea that just because the boat is cheap and the wind is free, doesn't mean it won't take some serious bucks to make that dream reality. And really, we're not talking hundreds here, were talking about thousands of dollars, that's why its so important to get novices ready to spend that money wisely. So that they don't rush in, but a boat, find out they can't afford it, sell the boat, and have a bad experience that sours their taste for sailing. I just saw that happen. It was really sad.



mrcottonsparrot said:


> *but i don't want to wind up with an unanticipated repair, or major issue that knocks me out of the picture. so its good to hear the worst about what can be. good to be informed. if the truth scares you back onto the sofa, maybe you don't have the heart to be worthy to ply the seas.*


Thank you. I hope it really does give you some ammo to use towards a wonderful lifetime of sailing!



mikehoyt said:


> While my experience the numbers are not the same it is good sober advice for anyone thinking of getting into boating. I rather doubt anyone will get to this point in the thread but here goes my example...


Thank you for that and some very good points as well. Many hobbies do cost a lot, but unlike boating, the costs of those things are not so hidden, much more straightforward. Aside from getting yourself to the mountain, to go skiing there really isn't much cost besides the skiis and the ticket. Sure, there are side things like clothes, food, lodging, maintenance, etc. But theres no insurance, storage fees, etc. Novices don't really know you have to have the bottom cleaned, get new bottom paint, buy sails/replace on a regular basis, that slips are maybe more expensive than they are thinking, etc.



seawitch1906 said:


> You call your self a sailor


I am a sailor.



> yet giving advices unsolicited ..


That's right. I'm 70, I've always wanted to give my advice to people on sailing topics, and now I'm doing it. Instead of writing a book and charging for it, or making a how-to video and selling it, I'm writing and writing and writing, hoping so save some novices from mistakes, and to help experienced sailors get some reaffirming opinions and maybe learn some new things.



Yamsailor said:


> Here are my two cents.


VERY interesting points. I agree on all of it. I hope to pass some of it on in future posts on my blog. The main point also being, it just ain't the same world it was in my day. I remember so many people building boats in vacant lots that I couldn't keep track. I loved wandering down near the marinas, so much going on. Today's generations want plug and play, hands off, brains on activities for the most part. But you know, thats good AND bad. Thats definitely a topic for a future post.



knothead said:


> Sailing for the average man will never die. As long as there is water, trees and freedom. Men will sail.


THAT is a GREAT quote. Thank you.



tweitz said:


> The OP is right, newbies can naively mistake the purchase price for the cost of owning a boat. But if you have the great luck of being able to afford it, sailing is wonderful and I love the fact that our boat is really ours.






JimsCAL said:


> Sailing can be expensive, but there are ways to reduce the costs.


Absolutely, there are ways to beat the system. I hope to get into that in a future article and how to get the most out of your boating adventure for cheap.



Arunas said:


> Sailing it is not a money it live style, if you are thinking about money, depreciation, better not to start sail.Arunas


Thank you, but I don't agree. If you do figure on the costs going in, you can be MUCH closer to achieving your goals than if you have no idea what you're getting into.



Yamsailor said:


> I do not dispute sailing costs a lot of money nor do I dispute that it is worth it if you like or love the sport/lifestyle. For the situation here in the mid-atlantic/north east--The bottom line is the average financial resources available for this lifestyle or for anything requiring disposable income is decreasing. This is a fact on the ground. Furthermore, in my opinion, I believe this will be the situation for the foreseeable future.


Very good point, and goes with what was said above.



Sailormann said:


> A charter vessel is a prostitute of the seas - available to anyone with sufficient cash, aging rapidly and of suspect integrity.
> 
> My boat is faithful to me, available to no-one else regardless of how much cash they wave about, and I know every inch of her to be strong and unsullied.


Thats hilarious, never though of a chartered boat as a prostitute. To be honest, I've only ever chartered well cared for boats, I assume the rental costs go to regular upkeep easily. But I agree, and own two sailboats at the moment, and love them both.



N0NJY said:


> No one is actually disputing your expenses. They are "what they are". They are for all of us. I'm a NEW sailor, haven't even put the boat in the water yet. I've already spent (somewhat less than) 10K. My wife and I intially laid out a cost of around 20K for everything from training to buying a first boat.
> ...
> MY issue with your post was the way you directed your message to "All you dreamers".....
> ...
> The dream, Sir, is becoming real for us, day by day. It's still a few years away, and I've got plenty of work to do - but I've not been sailing for sixty years like you - it's not something which I have "grown tired" or doing yet, and certainly it isn't something with which we've become jaded seeing others let their boats rot.
> ...
> *I don't give a damned how much I end up spending *and I don't really want someone to kick me in the gonads and tell me to "quit dreaming".
> 
> [snip] You're wrong.


Obviously, I don't think so.

You went in assuming you would spend 20k on an under 10k boat. Thats very realistic. You're not the dreamer sitting at his desk dreaming of lazy summer days on a boat, you assigned a realistic number to it. Those others need an advice article like mine to get up to speed. If you told some that a $5k boat would end up costing over $15k, they simply can't afford that. Not that they don't want to or will stop dreaming, just currently, they cant afford it.



k1vsk said:


> rhis whole discussion seems pretty silly. The term "expensive" is a relative one and no two people define it the same way. Also, not everyone has the same perception of value or money in general. Just because one person expresses his personal viewpoint doesn't make it either tight or wrong - just his.
> 
> What is wrong here is the apparent attempt for one person to apply his values on the rest of us.


I agree with all of this. I'm writing my advice based on my many years of owning a boat. Read it or not, agree or not, its your choice. Maybe the article doesn't even apply to you because you're a dreamer who knows what you're getting into. Just know that in this thread alone there have been several responses from novices and recent owners who are thankful to have this information, or grateful that in the past, they were warned. That's all I'm aiming for, to help those out who have the sailing "bug" but honestly don't know all they will have to spend money on, or exactly how much it will cost. They want to know. I'm trying to give them some basic numbers and advice to work with.



> So - folks, my thinking is, Cap'n Fred came here, NOT to convince us to "let the dream go" or "that things are too expensive...." - perhaps he did come here to get his opinion across. And PERHAPS, like Santa Claus, he sneaked in, in the middle of the night to spark a few more dreams for some of you who are constantly whining about expensive this or that is
> 
> Wake up and smell the coffee, ladies and gents. Methinks he is using some kind of retro-reverse-psychology on us all!
> 
> Rick


Man, what a 180. That is sort of what I wanted to do here. There were some that just got really peeved that I addressed dreamers and told them it was going to be expensive. All I want them to do is say "yeah but I really want to do it, no matter the costs!" I hope that it has that effect on you!



avoisine said:


> Fred thanks for the advice. Al


No problem, thank you for leaving a comment on my blog. I hope what I wrote back gives you somethings to start with. Please keep us informed!



SSBN506 said:


> My point is it is different for all people and we get what we can afford. For me I would rather own an old BMW or boat then Rent a new one.


All excellent points.



SailChick20 said:


> Captain Obvious does have a valid point or two....it seems as though many people do tend to just jump in, before considering all costs and actual time available to use it. Fools in that category have made their own bed, IMO.
> 
> Pour moi, a GenX/Y...the cost is ridiculous, yes....but, I would pay much more to keep what I get back from sailing.
> 
> ...Happy New Year, SN!
> 
> -Kristen


The article should be obvious to most experienced sailors, they already know how much it costs!

Happy New Year to you too!



cardiacpaul said:


> And I am green with envy every of one of those bas***ds.


Just get on one of them things and never look back! 



Joesaila said:


> A boat is a hole in the water...I would not want to be without. Especially my sailboat. I can spend money on enjoying it, or leave the dough in a bank. While its better logic to always 'count the cost', I'm committed to enjoying life now.


Good idea. Life is short, its better to spend it on the water.

Thank you all for your thoughts on this. I had no idea it would spark such debate and produce so many opinions and reactions.

I really hope the article serves as a base for some novices to make a more educated decision, avoid a souring experience, and that it further drills home the commitment - the same I've had for 64 years - its all worth it... sailing is a lifestyle you COMMIT to. I hope everyone has many great sailing days in 2009!


----------



## Sasha_V

Sailormann said:


> A charter vessel is a prostitute of the seas - .


That's funny, my definition for that title was always the backpacker girls that offer to jump you on a regular basis if you take them cruising the Whitsundays with you....

There is also the "welcoming committee" at the conclusion of a particlar race, but they are more "...of the dock" then the seas. I am also reasonably sure they do not charge, so bad example.


----------



## SimonV

Sasha_V said:


> That's funny, my definition for that title was always the backpacker girls that offer to jump you on a regular basis if you take them cruising the Whitsundays with you....
> 
> There is also the "welcoming committee" at the conclusion of a particlar race, but they are more "...of the dock" then the seas. I am also reasonably sure they do not charge, so bad example.


SASHA, PM me now I require further information. I am now home ported in Brisbane. Whitsundays are very close. PM ME ASAP.


----------



## Maine Sail

CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> *DON'T FORGET DEPRECIATION*
> 
> Assign 30% depreciation for the first year on a new boat, 20% for the second year (Or the first year on a used boat ) and 10% (of the original price) for each year thereafter. At some point the depreciation will taper off, but the maintenance will escalate to make up for it.


I hate it when people shoot from the hip or use a bad data set..

Let's see I have bought and sold six boats since 1997:

SeaWay 19 - Paid 5k sold for 6.8k

Catalina 30 - Paid 16.5k sold for 22k

Cataina 36 - Paid 47k traded in for 56k

Mainship Pilot 30 - Paid 102k traded in for 105k

Catalina 310 (brand new) Paid 111.3k sold two years later for 107.5k

CS-36 Paid 47k have not sold yet but was offered 60k last summer if I would...
*
Made/Lost:* 1.8k + 5.5k + 9k + 3k - 3.8k = net increase in value over 11 years of boat ownership = +15.5k

Even on a two year old boat I only lost 3.4%!! If I were to use Captain Fred's numbers my 2005 Catalina 310 would look like this:

Original purchase price March 2005 = 111.3k
- 30% Year 1 = 77.9k
-20% Year 2 = 62.3k
-10% Year 3 = 56k

(boat actually sold in winter of 2007 for 107.5k)

If you are a hack, and don't maintain or care for your boat you WILL lose money! A well maintained boat will sell at the absolute tip to of the market and will sell quickly.

Our Catalina 30 sold to the second looker in just four weeks, our C-36 sold to the first looker within three days of trading it in, my Mainship sold to the first looker within in one week of trade in, and our Catalina 310 sold to the second looker in just about 8 weeks.

The bottom line is that boats are still expensive and time consuming but the OP is off on the math. My scenario is not standard, as my boats are always in the top 1-2% of condition, but even if you go by soldboats.com the numbers don't work in the OP's post..


----------



## Maine Sail

Gramp34 said:


> Capt'n Fred -- I think your 20% estimate for depreciation is pretty severe. Powerboats and racing sailboats, maybe, family cruisers, definitely not. Here's some values for Catalina 36s I pulled out of the BUC book a year and a half ago:
> 
> Year........ Ave Retail... Loss per year... % per year
> 2006........ $130,750
> 2005........ $125,250........ $5,500........ 4%
> 2004........ $119,750 ........$5,500........ 4%
> 2003........ $114,000........ $5,750........ 5%
> 2002........ $108,000........ $6,000........ 5%
> 2001........ $101,650........ $6,350........ 6%
> 2000........ $95,550.......... $6,100........ 6%
> 1999........ $89,900.......... $5,650........ 6%
> 1998........ $84,300.......... $5,600........ 6%
> 1997........ $78,900.......... $5,400........ 6%
> 1996........ $73,650.......... $5,250........ 7%
> 1995........ $68,650.......... $5,000........ 7%
> 1994........ $63,900.......... $4,750........ 7%
> 1993........ $59,400.......... $4,500........ 7%
> 1992........ $55,600.......... $3,800........ 6%
> 1991........ $51,500.......... $4,100........ 7%
> 1990........ $48,050.......... $3,450........ 7%
> 1989........ $44,450.......... $3,600........ 7%
> 1988........ $41,150.......... $3,300........ 7%
> *1987........ $38,200.......... $2,950........ 7%*
> 1986........ $35,450.......... $2,750........ 7%
> 1985........ $32,750.......... $2,700........ 8%
> 1984........ $33,050.......... ($300)........ -1%
> 1983........ $31,100.......... $1,950........ 6%
> 1982........ $25,800.......... $5,300........ 17%
> 
> It's easy to get a BUC or NADA book and trace back different boat models. It'd be even more accurate to calculate based on the initial purchase price rather than today's purchase price.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Tim


BUC & NADA are horribly inaccurate when it comes to boats. The industry now uses, and has been for a while, Soldboats.com. Unfortunately these numbers on soldboats, or anywhere, are dependent on broker input. Padding sales can and does happen but soldboats.com is the most accurate we have and you need to be a broker or member to use it....

Currently on Yacht World there are three 1987 C-36's listed for 63.9k, 50k and 57k. Boats generally sell for about 10-12% below asking (can be more if condition is real bad) but 10% is generally the average (will probably climb some in the bad economy). This average does NOT support a BUC value of 38.2k..

If you take an averge of the 3, you come up with 56.9k asking, now deduct 10% for averge sale price and you have 51.2k on average which is a far cry from 38.2k

Of course none of this changes the fact that boating is expensive and will cost a LOT more than the original purchase price..


----------



## CaptainFredGreenfield

I've gone through and corrected my process for accounting, by laying it out in two scenarios in theory, and then a very realistic real world scenario in the 3rd.

This is as detailed of a breakdown as I can make it, and I haven't double counted depreciation. The costs are only marginally less than I had originally posted.

------

DON'T FORGET DEPRECIATION

Assign 20-30% depreciation for the first year on a new boat, 10-20% for the second year (Or the first year on a used boat ) and 5-10% (of the original price) for each year thereafter. At some point the depreciation will taper off, but the maintenance will escalate to make up for it. For the sake of argument, I will remain conservative and use the maximum depreciation scale. These numbers are adjustable by the boat - some will be 25% less depending on the covetability of that boat.

FIGURING THE COSTS

I am going to show you a BASIC way to determine the costs of owning a boat, taking the typical factors into account. Obviously, the price to own an maintain a 60 foot racing sloop is going to be substantially more than a 24 foot trailered family sailboat. Similarly, owning a Catalina 30 is going to be different than owning a Newport 30. There is no formula that will work for every boat, in every location, you'll have to use this as a guideline only.

Lets clarify what's going on here. If you don't spend the money on mainenance, you will see it in depreciation.

First, some facts.

$20,000 PURCHASE PRICE - a 30 foot, used sailboat from 1984, in functionally good condition with only minor wear and tear expected of a boat of her age.

5 YEARS is the term that we will own the boat. After that, we will figure out what we are going to do with it. Hopefully we get between 30-60 sailing days on her a year, getting some good use out of her.

EXPENSES below are simple, mandatory expenses - slip fee and insurance. Obviously, these two factors depend on where you are. In Southern California, these numbers are accurate for 2009, if not on the cheaper side. They do not factor in live aboard fees, dockside electricity, extra storage lockers, and most importantly, fuel.

MAINTENANCE costs are things like bottom scrapings, bottom paint, haul outs, varnish/stain, replacing sail covers, replacing or having a sail repaired if damaged, replacing the occasional rigging item, basic engine maintenance and expenses, etc. Despite what some have said, this is a VERY realistic figure. Some years will be more, some will be less.

Now, based on my experience with owning sailboats, lets figure out how much it will cost to own her based on 3 scenarios.
SCENARIO 1 - Used and Abused

We do no maintenance, and sell her at the end of the 5 years.

EXPENSES & DEPRECIATION__________________________

FIRST YEAR

- $0 maintenance (10%)

- $4,000 depreciation (20%)

- $3,200 expenses = $300 per mo.slip rent + $200/yr liability insurance

NEXT 4 YEARS

- $0 maintenance (10%)

- $8,000 = $2,000 x 4 (10%/year) next 4 yrs depreciation

- $12,800 expenses next 4 yrs slip fees and insurance

__________________________________

$16,000 TOTAL SLIP FEE AND INSURANCE EXPENSE

+ $20,000 ORIGINAL PURCHASE PRICE

__________________________________

$36,000 TOTAL to own this boat for 5 yrs.

That’s approx. $7200/year if you don’t sell it.

If you do resell it after 5 years for $8,000 resale value (using the depreciation schedule above) - lets face it, after 5 years of hard use, she's going to be hard to sell because she's in really poor shape (private sale/no commission)

then $28,000 non-recovered expenses/depreciation divided by 5 yrs = $5600/year

If we got the maximum of 60 days onboard our boat each year, this factors out to $93.33/day of use to own this boat. That's $15.34/day whether you use it or not.
SCENARIO 2 - The Properly Maintained Boat

We do regular maintenance, she's in as good of shape as the day we bought her, and sell her at the end of the 5 years for the exact same price as when we bought her.

EXPENSES & DEPRECIATION__________________________

FIRST YEAR

- $2,000 maintenance (10%)

- $3,200 expenses = $300 per mo.slip rent + $200/yr liability insurance

- $0 depreciation

NEXT 4 YEARS

- $8,000 = $2,000 x 4 (10%/year) next 4 yrs maintenance

- $12,800 expenses next 4 yrs slip fees and insurance

- $0 depreciation (10%)

__________________________________

$16,000 TOTAL SLIP FEE AND INSURANCE EXPENSE

+ $10,000 MAINTENANCE

+ $20,000 ORIGINAL PURCHASE PRICE

__________________________________

$46,000 TOTAL to own this boat for 5 yrs.

That’s approx. $9200/year if you don’t sell it.

If you do resell it after 5 years for $20,000 resale value (the exact amount you paid for it) (private sale/no commission)

then $26,000 non-recovered expenses/depreciation divided by 5 yrs = $5200/year

If we got the maximum of 60 days onboard our boat each year, this factors out to $86.66/day of use to own this boat. That's $14.25/day whether you use it or not.
SCENARIO 3 - The Real World Bargain

Buying the bargain - lets forget theoreticals, and use a typical scenario you might encounter buying a bargain (through distress sale, lost job, etc). This is the actual scenario it would take for an inexperienced boat owner to fix up my newly acquired hardship-sold 1970 Coronado 30. She came with several sails, an outboard, and several anchors. When I bought her for $2,000, here's what was wrong:

Palmer 60 inoperable, needs to be rebuilt or replaced.
Several leaking windows.
No cushions salvageable for re-covering, will need all new cushions.
No toilet in head, only porta-potty.
Hatch slider boards cracked/broken
Companionway hatchboards must be replaced.
Hatches need new rubber seals,
Boat needs total repaint - bottom and topsides.
No electronics.
Pig dirty. Needed to be cleaned completely.
Batteries are probably dead.
Bulkheads have dated faux wood paneling that has faded. They need to be recovered or painted.
No electronic bilge pumps.
Alcohol stove is not very practical, and can be dangerous.
Sail Cover and outboard covers need to be replaced.
At least one loose stanchion port side.

EXPENSES & DEPRECIATION__________________________

BEFORE BUYING

$120 - ID state sales tax (6%)
$30 - Year License
? - Property Tax
_________________________
$150 TOTAL THIS SECTION

RETROFIT EXPENSES

HAUL OUT EXPENSES

$1000 Haul out, clean bottom, paint bottom
$2500 Topsides paintjob
$100 Zincs
$10000 Diesel Engine Replacement - prop, shaft, install, etc.
$300 New throughhulls
___________________
$13800 TOTAL THIS SECTION

AT THE SLIP EXPENSES

$1400 Complete new set cushions
$50 Sealant and misc to fix leaking windows
$100 Hatch slider boards
$100 Hatch boards
$30 Rubber seals for hatches
$50 cleaning materials
$150 VHF Radio
$250 GPS Handheld
$300 Batteries
$200 Marine Battery Charger
$230 Mainsail cover
$30 Outboard cover
$50 Bulkhead paint/brushes
$200 Head and misc parts
$100 2x bilge pumps
$500 Used electric replacement stove for alcohol stove.
$200 Anchor Chain and Line
$400 Used manual windlass
______________________
$4340 TOTAL THIS SECTION

$18140 TOTAL RETROFIT EXPENSES

That's bargain hunting for mostly new stuff.

If I bargain hunt for used stuff, and do as much of the labor I can do myself, lets say I can do so well I can save 50% on these costs.

$9070 CAPTAIN FRED BARGAIN HUNTER RETROFIT EXPENSES

Now we can start to maintain and own her.

FIRST YEAR

- $0 maintenance (the maintenance is covered by the retrofit)

- $3,200 expenses = $300 per mo.slip rent + $200/yr liability insurance

- $0 depreciation (its actually starting to appreciate now)

NEXT 4 YEARS

- $8,000 = $2,000 x 4 (10%/year) next 4 yrs maintenance

- $12,800 expenses next 4 yrs slip fees and insurance

- $0 depreciation ()

__________________________________

$16,000 TOTAL SLIP FEE AND INSURANCE EXPENSE

+ $150 TAXES AND FEES

+ $8,000 MAINTENANCE

+ $9,070 CAPTAIN FRED BARGAIN RETROFIT

+ $2,000 ORIGINAL PURCHASE PRICE

__________________________________

$35,220 TOTAL to own this boat for 5 yrs.

That’s approx. $7044/year if you don’t sell it.

If you do resell it after 5 years for $12,000 resale value (this is about market value, give or take 20%) (private sale/no commission)

then $23,220 non-recovered expenses/depreciation divided by 5 yrs = $4644/year

If we got the maximum of 60 days onboard our boat each year, this factors out to $77.40/day of use to own this boat. That's $12.72/day whether you use it or not.

-------------

To recap, its obvious that to own a boat is expensive. The dream that once you buy a boat, the wind is free and there's a few costs on the side to keep her floating is mostly true, but sadly there is no way to escape the costs, which, for some, and depending on the situation, can be substantial.

The reason I wrote this article is for dreamers to realize this, and that no matter what the cost of boating, the end result is priceless. The places you can explore, the feeling of joy charging downwind at 10 knots, the fact that you could take off tomorrow for any port you desire is all worth every penny. Just make sure you don't go broke waiting to make your sailing dreams come true. Expect to spend this much, and if through your thriftiness and my inaccuracy you manage to save 50% over my costs, you're a true sailor who's beating the system. But it ain't free, make sure you can afford it... its worth it.


----------



## CaptainFredGreenfield

Maine Sail said:


> I hate it when people shoot from the hip or use a bad data set..
> 
> Let's see I have bought and sold six boats since 1997:
> 
> SeaWay 19 - Paid 5k sold for 6.8k
> 
> Catalina 30 - Paid 16.5k sold for 22k
> 
> Cataina 36 - Paid 47k traded in for 56k
> 
> Mainship Pilot 30 - Paid 102k traded in for 105k
> 
> Catalina 310 (brand new) Paid 111.3k sold two years later for 107.5k
> 
> CS-36 Paid 47k have not sold yet but was offered 60k last summer if I would...
> *
> Made/Lost:* 1.8k + 5.5k + 9k + 3k - 3.8k = net increase in value over 11 years of boat ownership = +15.5k
> 
> Even on a two year old boat I only lost 3.4%!! If I were to use Captain Fred's numbers my 2005 Catalina 310 would look like this:
> 
> Original purchase price March 2005 = 111.3k
> - 30% Year 1 = 77.9k
> -20% Year 2 = 62.3k
> -10% Year 3 = 56k
> 
> (boat actually sold in winter of 2007 for 107.5k)
> 
> If you are a hack, and don't maintain or care for your boat you WILL lose money! A well maintained boat will sell at the absolute tip to of the market and will sell quickly.
> 
> Our Catalina 30 sold to the second looker in just four weeks, our C-36 sold to the first looker within three days of trading it in, my Mainship sold to the first looker within in one week of trade in, and our Catalina 310 sold to the second looker in just about 8 weeks.
> 
> The bottom line is that boats are still expensive and time consuming but the OP is off on the math. My scenario is not standard, as my boats are always in the top 1-2% of condition, but even if you go by soldboats.com the numbers don't work in the OP's post..


Most boat owners don't get into buying boats so that they can flip them. Most are lucky to see the same resale value when they sell them, because most buy them for personal pleasure, use them, then have to repair and upgrade what they wore out or broke.

You say all of your boats are in the top 1-2% condition.

How long did you own them? If it was only a couple of months with no use, there probably was very little you had to do to them.

Did it cost nothing to put them in a slip, insure them, license, maintain them? Did you ever take them out and use them? If so, did you ever have to replace lines, repair sails, or replace any other components that went wrong?

Did you have any wood on board? Did you have to care for it?

Did you ever have to haul out? Bottom Paint? Bottom clean? New Zincs? Labor? How much did that cost?

The point is, the reason why your boats DIDN't depreciate heavily is because it takes a lot of work and ownership cost to keep a boat in the top 1-2%. You can either pay for it on the front end or the back. If you're lucky and your boat only needs 50% of my estimated expenses to keep it in top shape because its special or something, then congratulations. But tally up how much it cost to simply own those boats, and I think you'll see it cost a lot to keep them in top shape, let alone own them. And that sure ain't taking them out for long voyages where things can and often do break and need replacing or repairing.

In the long run, you didn't make a dime owning those boats, if you bought them to flip them, you might look at it on paper instead of just the sale price and figure that everyone who says boats depreciate is wrong or using a bad data set.

The whole point is, my schedule, much like the depreciation schedules you might find anywhere on the net are generalizations, meant only to get a new boat owner thinking about how much they are going to have to spend on their boat. Its not going to work perfectly to apply to all boats, all models, in all geographic locations. Or did you forget about the location part?

The fact that my Rawson 30 in So Cal is worth 60% of what it would be worth in Seattle? There's no way I'm going to account for those things in a simple article.


----------



## camaraderie

Fred...while you're entitled to your opinion, I think your depreciation data is WAY off base too. Maine wasn't really talking about flipping. He was talking about a boat kept in good repair. My own experience (6 boats - 38 years of ownership) says that you can buy used production boats...keep 'em for a few years and spend a bit on them and still sell for VERY close to what you have in them in initial price and upgrades (not maintenance). 
Now the economy is in the tank so EVERYTHING has changed for the moment but I am talking about normal times. Hell...right now, you might buy a boat as an investment and do better than most other choices!


----------



## Maine Sail

CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> Most boat owners don't get into buying boats so that they can flip them. Most are lucky to see the same resale value when they sell them, because most buy them for personal pleasure, use them, then have to repair and upgrade what they wore out or broke.


I don't "flip" boats I buy a boat get lots of use out of it, keep it spotless, get bored and move on..



CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> You say all of your boats are in the top 1-2% condition.
> 
> How long did you own them? If it was only a couple of months with no use, there probably was very little you had to do to them.


One boat I only owned for one season all the others were at least two+ years. We've had our current boat now for three. They all got LOTS of use and LOTS of love and attention so to minimize any loss in value. I used to detail boats for a living when I was younger so I know the HUGE importance of appearance on value.



CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> Did it cost nothing to put them in a slip, insure them, license, maintain them?


Of course it did but apparently you chose not to read where I said


Maine Sail said:


> *Of course none of this changes the fact that boating is expensive and will cost a LOT more than the original purchase price..*


But seeing as you asked here is my break down in Maine.

Mooring = $20.00 per year & about $350.00 every four to years for new chain or 107.50 per year over four years.

Winter Storage = I don't skimp and pay for shrink, pressure wash and remove my stick each winter to the tune of about $2200.00

Insurance = $680.00 per year

Registration = 68.00

Total Fixed Costs $3055.50 per year



CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> Did you ever take them out and use them? If so, did you ever have to replace lines, repair sails, or replace any other components that went wrong?


We average well over 1k nm per season. You are ALWAYS upgrading or fixing something but you do with any large investment. This is the big hidden cost and why it is so important to DIY!!



CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> Did you have any wood on board? Did you have to care for it?


Some boats yes but three of them had NO external wood including the current boat. We have a long winter up here and it gives us lots of time to putter away on things we enjoy. If you are not handy, and don't enjoy working on boats then you probably should not own one unless you have money to just throw away or burn..



CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> Did you ever have to haul out? Bottom Paint? Bottom clean? New Zincs? Labor? How much did that cost?


Sure we haul out every winter for six months. Zincs cost me about $2.19 (LINK) and $6.99 (LINK) which is a FAR CRY from the $100.00 you quoted plus I get a commercial discount on top of those prices bringing my yearly grand total to about $10.00 (I usually buy three engine zincs one shaft). If you spend $100.0 on zincs you may have a problem that needs to be addressed. As for labor I have not paid labor in years and do everything myself. The only labor I pay on a yearly basis is the charge to pressure wash & step and un-step my mast. I tune it myself. I used to do my own pressure washing but for the $44.00 charge it's just not worth lugging my pressure washer to the boat yard anymore..



CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> The point is, the reason why your boats DIDN't depreciate heavily is because it takes a lot of work and ownership cost to keep a boat in the top 1-2%.


If you want to be successful at anything in life it takes hard work! Boat ownership is not a sit on the couch, point the remote control at it sport, and it requires a time and labor commitment on your part! All in all though it's not really as much time as most people think, but yes it will require time.

You need to have a schedule of events and time-line for certain tasks to keep up with it or you'll get so far behind you'll never catch up. Try working on a 100+ foot mega-yacht without a schedule and you'll be screwed really quickly and never ever catch up. Just ask me how I know....



CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> You can either pay for it on the front end or the back.


Even if I add in all my expenses they still DO NOT come anywhere near your claims of 30% first year, 20% second and 10% there after. You never addressed my 3.4% depreciation on a brand new boat that I sold less than three years later. On that boat I literally added nothing but a larger alternator and an stereo that accepted an iPod for a total upgrade cost of about $369.00. I did spend money on cleaning supplies and spent time keeping up with it but that was it. She was the cleanest 310 on the market and that is why she sold. The guy that bought it had looked at every 310 North of VA and it was also the most expensive.



CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> If you're lucky and your boat only needs 50% of my estimated expenses to keep it in top shape because its special or something, then congratulations. But tally up how much it cost to simply own those boats, and I think you'll see it cost a lot to keep them in top shape, let alone own them.


Yup we've never been in disagreement on this at all! Where we disagree is your depreciation numbers which are not realistic. I had access to Soldboats.com until about a month ago when a buddy who was a broker left the trade to go into the family business. I can assure you that 30% then 20% then 10% each year there after is not real world. Can it happen? Yes but it is not the norm at all and actually quite far from it.



CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> In the long run, you didn't make a dime owning those boats, if you bought them to flip them, you might look at it on paper instead of just the sale price and figure that everyone who says boats depreciate is wrong or using a bad data set.


I never ever said boats don't depreciate or that they are a good investment! I would never buy boats to flip! As for the bad data set I'd really like to know where you got your 30, 20, 10 number from. I will remind you again that my 310 sold for 107.5k which is 3.4% below what I paid for it. We sailed her almost 2.5k miles over two seasons and for a brand new boat I was expecting to lose at least 10% - 15% which is more standard.

Remember your numbers had my 310 selling for 56k when it really sold for 107.5k. That is a 192% price difference !!!! Something is obviously wrong between a real sale and your 30,20,10 numbers. The last time I checked Soldboats.com, about 10 months ago, no 310 had ever sold for anywhere close to 56k.



CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> The whole point is, my schedule, much like the depreciation schedules you might find anywhere on the net are generalizations, meant only to get a new boat owner thinking about how much they are going to have to spend on their boat. Its not going to work perfectly to apply to all boats, all models, in all geographic locations. Or did you forget about the location part?
> 
> The fact that my Rawson 30 in So Cal is worth 60% of what it would be worth in Seattle? There's no way I'm going to account for those things in a simple article.


The you should put a depreciation range rather than trying to scare the living bejesus out of folks by telling them that in three years their 111.3k investment would be worth 56k.

Perhaps saying: "First year depreciation, depending upon location, boat and how you maintain it, could range from as little as 3% to as much as 30% and second year depreciation could range from 3% to as much as 20% and year three and beyond can range from about 1% to 10% per year".. Blanket statements that scare folks are not what we need to grow this dying sport!

If you maintain your boat to a high standard, which DOES cost money, you will and can minimize losses. If you treat your boat like a floor matt then it will be reflected in your tail end losses...


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## hellosailor

Fred, I take it you aren't an accountant?[G]

While your bargain boat refit includes engine, sails, and bottom paint--you don't factor those in for your five-year figuring in general. If you do get 30-60 days of sailing per year, you can make some reasonable assumptions regarding what percent of your sails will be "consumed", your engine hours towadds overhual, and of course the annual bottom paint. Even if those vary with the boat, they are real costs that must be factored in, and pro-rated on an annual basis just the same way that dockage and insurance are.

Doing accurate expense projections isn't easy. But if you just wanted to slip out for a couple of hours for beer can racing one evening--the alternative could be $125/hour for therapy for $400 for the day's charter, since you usually can't charter by the hour, much less reserve a charter boat just for an evening. (Usually.)


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## CaptainFredGreenfield

camaraderie said:


> Fred...while you're entitled to your opinion, I think your depreciation data is WAY off base too. Maine wasn't really talking about flipping. He was talking about a boat kept in good repair. My own experience (6 boats - 38 years of ownership) says that you can buy used production boats...keep 'em for a few years and spend a bit on them and still sell for VERY close to what you have in them in initial price and upgrades (not maintenance).
> Now the economy is in the tank so EVERYTHING has changed for the moment but I am talking about normal times. Hell...right now, you might buy a boat as an investment and do better than most other choices!


So answer this:

How much is a $20k boat worth after 5 seasons seeing 60 days a season onboard, with no cleaning, maintenance, upgrades, etc?

MY feeling is, that boat is going to be trashed. You'll be LUCKY if its worth 60% of its original value, and that's assuming you didn't BREAK anything. Everything will be worn substantially.

So then, how much is that same boat worth if you maintain it to its original condition, maybe you add a small something here or there as an upgrade? Probably close to its original price.

The question that my article, and what I've spent a lot of posts trying to help many here who don't seem to be getting it is - that maintenance is EXPENSIVE. So are the slip fees and insurance. It all adds up and the longer you keep the boat, the more that number adds up on paper.

That has been my point since post #1 - Pay it in depreciation after 5 years of total neglect and usage what would you say... 30% depreciation? 40%? 50%? Try to honestly answer that question.

As many have said here, we buy distress saled boats where the last owner got in over their head and is wearing that boat and can't afford it. In the case of my Coronado, I bought it for 2,000. In working clean condition its worth 8-12k. How much depreciation is that? You tell me.

And as I said originally, you are arguing about 5 or 10 % depreciation. Even if I'm 50% wrong, were talking a difference of a few thousand maybe. AGAIN thats not the cost I have been talking about since post #1. I'm talking about those TENS OF THOUSANDS you will spend on simply docking the boat, hauling it for storage, getting the bottom cleaned, etc. etc. Basic costs.

That is stuff that a novice doesn't think about.


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## CalebD

I am not an accountant but I do know some math. Depreciation has never made much sense to me although I will use it with business tax returns and such. 
You buy a product. You use it as long as you can and then it breaks down or stops working. All assets are not created equal. Some appreciate and most depreciate. Automobiles mostly depreciate because owners do not maintain them properly and the amount of money it takes to rejuvenate an old and ill used car is more then the book value. Some people love old cars and care for them and keep them in great shape. An antique Chevy Mustang that is in prime condition is worth more (in todays dollars) then when it first sold on the antique market. It seems the same is somewhat true on the boating market although I do believe the number of antique or 'classic' sail boat enthusiasts is smaller then the number of combustion engine only vehicles.
Yes, sailboats can be expensive to own but if your mooring fee is $25/year and your boat is trailered in the off season it does not cost nearly as much as it might seem. Nothing lasts forever and eventually requires replacing of fixing but it does not have to be such a major drain financially if your boat is small enough to be trailered and kept on your own property. If you do all your own work then the cost is even lower.
I spent $1K on my used circa 1982 Lightning 19' sailboat with trailer and those are my figures to date. If I gave her a new set of sails it would likely be more expensive then my original investment. Depreciate that!
The bigger the boat, the bigger the costs.


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## CaptainFredGreenfield

Maine Sail said:


> One boat I only owned for one season all the others were at least two+ years. We've had our current boat now for three. They all got LOTS of use and LOTS of love and attention so to minimize any loss in value. I used to detail boats for a living when I was younger so I know the HUGE importance of appearance on value.


You know how to detail boats inside and out. Yes, that will help resale value a TON. The novice boat owner may or may not understand that just because boats are in the water doesn't mean they don't get dirty.



> But seeing as you asked here is my break down in Maine.
> 
> Mooring = $20.00 per year & about $350.00 every four to years for new chain or 107.50 per year over four years.
> 
> Winter Storage = I don't skimp and pay for shrink, pressure wash and remove my stick each winter to the tune of about $2200.00
> 
> Insurance = $680.00 per year
> 
> Registration = 68.00
> 
> Total Fixed Costs $3055.50 per year


Thats good costs. Do you spend anything on maintenance? Does your haulout cost anything? Do you buy any parts to replace anything or do you just dunk her in spring and hoist the sails?



> We average well over 1k nm per season. You are ALWAYS upgrading or fixing something but you do with any large investment. This is the big hidden cost and why it is so important to DIY!!


DING! You DIY because you know how to and you can. Many do not or can not or do not understand the amount of upgrading or fixing. THATS WHO I WROTE THE ARTICLE FOR. You also conveniently leave out how much it would cost to pay someone to do most of the hard DIY stuff. I'm talking dollars and cents. Thats the premise for this article, not how to save money by DIY your mast lights and refinishing your rails.



> Some boats yes but three of them had NO external wood including the current boat. We have a long winter up here and it gives us lots of time to putter away on things we enjoy. If you are not handy, and don't enjoy working on boats then you probably should not own one unless you have money to just throw away or burn..


But now you are setting conditions for who should and should not own a boat? What if someone just wants to do some basic cleaning and take their boat out? What if they have no idea that all of this work is necessary, and they aren't very handy, but they love to sail just the same? "you have money to just throw away or burn." Care to put a dollar figure on that? THATS what I'm trying to do with this article!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



> Sure we haul out every winter for six months. Zincs cost me about $2.19 (LINK) and $6.99 (LINK) which is a FAR CRY from the $100.00 you quoted plus I get a commercial discount on top of those prices bringing my yearly grand total to about $10.00 (I usually buy three engine zincs one shaft). If you spend $100.0 on zincs you may have a problem that needs to be addressed. As for labor I have not paid labor in years and do everything myself. The only labor I pay on a yearly basis is the charge to pressure wash & step and un-step my mast. I tune it myself. I used to do my own pressure washing but for the $44.00 charge it's just not worth lugging my pressure washer to the boat yard anymore..


So you do all of your own labor, buy all of your own parts. Yeah you sound like the novice dreamer boat owner I am referring to with the article.

The zincs should have been $10 not $100. Its called a typo. Thanks for catching it though.



> As for the bad data set I'd really like to know where you got your 30, 20, 10 number from. I will remind you again that my 310 sold for 107.5k which is 3.4% below what I paid for it. We sailed her almost 2.5k miles over two seasons and for a brand new boat I was expecting to lose at least 10% - 15% which is more standard.


If you bought her brand new, she's used now and she's worth 5-10% less the moment you take posession. Show me a single sailboat that is 2 years used that is worth the same as a new sailboat. It doesn't exist. When boats become classics, they can, become worth MORE than their sale price new. But compared to how much was spent simply keeping her floating in top condition, its a major money losing situation.

And you're not paying attention.

If you NEGLECT the boat, doing no MAINTENANCE, you will see an additional 10-20% drop. If she's already got severe wear problems after the first year, depending on the issues, you better believe you're going to see a sailboat worth 15-30% less than she was when she was new.



> Remember your numbers had my 310 selling for 56k when it really sold for 107.5k. That is a 192% price difference !!!! Something is obviously wrong between a real sale and your 30,20,10 numbers. The last time I checked Soldboats.com, about 10 months ago, no 310 had ever sold for anywhere close to 56k.


No, 107.5k is 192% of 56k, but that is a 92% price difference, not a 192% difference. Come on now, if you're going to be correcting my math, please get yours straight.

Did you notice that once again, you are trying to apply my depreciation schedule to your perfectly maintained boat (regardless of how much it cost to maintain it)? To your boat which was undoubtedly bought well, is a coveted model for your area, and is among the finest of its class? Can you not see that you are not Joe sailboat buyer, sitting at his desk dreaming of buying a boat, not knowing what he is getting into? The massive depreciation in those first years comes from NEGLECT, wearing the new off, and not knowing how to fix it. It is further compounded by owning a model in which their is no coveting, in an area where they are plentiful.

Now your boat may have sold for only a fraction less than you bought it for but that is simply not true of all vessels, and the longer they are not new anymore the more they fall from the original price. For instance, Looking on boattrader.com, I can't find any 2006-2008 310's, but for an immaculate 2005 310, its at $84,900. 2005 Catalina 310 For Sale In Naples, FL: Cruiser (sail) - BoatTrader.com

As we go further down the line here's a 2003 310 for $83,000, 2003 Catalina 310 - Boats.com

and a 2001 310 at $69,900 2001 Catalina 310 - Boats.com

Now I realize my numbers aren't perfect, theres no way you could make ONE set of numbers work for EVERY boat in EVERY geographic location. But I want YOU to talk to the guy who bought that 310 in 2001 for $110,000, spent tens of thousands upkeeping her, and now needs to sell her because he can't afford her, so he's doing it at $69. YOU talk to him. YOU tell him depreciation doesn't exist. YOU tell him he didn't lose 35% of the value of his boat over 7 years, and that Captain Fred's a nutcase because he SHOULD be listing it for $100k, because thats how depreciation in your REAL WORLD works.

That even though he spent TENS OF THOUSANDS docking her and maintaining her, she still lost a whopping 35%, but if he had just done it like you - and put a new ipod radio in her, he could have sold her for $100k.



> The you should put a depreciation range rather than trying to scare the living bejesus out of folks by telling them that in three years their 111.3k investment would be worth 56k.


At the worst end of the scale, engine broken, sails damaged, other issues, $60k isn't out of line at the end of 3 years. You break an engine by not maintaining it, how much did that depreciate the boat?



> If you maintain your boat to a high standard, which DOES cost money, you will and can minimize losses. If you treat your boat like a floor matt then it will be reflected in your tail end losses...


How ambiguous. Care to attach a proper generalized schedule to how much a boat loses in value if you neglect it and use it 60 days out of the year? Can you honestly not expect that there will be some major cost in there somewhere? If you ignore it and leave it unfixed, HOW MUCH DID THE BOAT DEPRECIATE? How about after 5 years?

How much would you pay for a 310 after 5 years with the engine needing servicing, noticable wear and tear on everything, a sail or two damaged, its dirty, bottom hasn't been cleaned in who knows how long, zincs haven't been changed and possibly other issues?

GIVE ME A NUMBER!


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## Maine Sail

CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> How much would you pay for a 310 after 5 years with the engine needing servicing, noticeable wear and tear on everything, a sail or two damaged, its dirty, bottom hasn't been cleaned in who knows how long, zincs haven't been changed and possibly other issues?
> 
> GIVE ME A NUMBER!


Of course Fred you're right as always. My answer to the above is NOT MUCH! That is called NEGLECT! Perhaps you should put a detailed piece on your site about how to properly care for your vessel to reduce MASSIVE depreciation by NEGLECT.

You STILL missed my whole point after reading that and I will not address it again if your reading comprehension has not yet picked up on it.

In 2001 a new 310 was about 92-97k now they are asking 69k that is an asking price of less than 30% depreciation over EIGHT YEARS!!! Again following your "blanket" applied depreciation schedule, for new boats, it should look like this:

Year 0 97k purchase
Year 1 -30% = 67.9k
Year 2 -20% = 54.3k
Year 3 -10% = 48.8k
Year 4 -10% = 44k
Year 5 -10% =39.6k
Year 6 -10% =35.6k
Year 7 -10% =32k
Year 8 -10% =28.8k

Please re-read my post and see if you GET where we disagree? As I said before BOATING IS EXPENSIVE but your depreciation schedule is flat out OUT OF WHACK when used in the fashion you did, as BLANKET STATEMENT. Remember I used your own 2001 reference boat as an example above to display test your model and show just how off it is. Blanket statements like that will scare people away from boating!

This is all I ask of you and I noted that you purposely left it out of your above post:



Maine Sail said:


> *Perhaps saying:* "First year depreciation, depending upon location, boat and how you maintain it, could range from as little as 3% to as much as 30% and second year depreciation could range from 3% to as much as 20% and year three and beyond can range from about 1% to 10% per year". Blanket statements, that scare folks, are not what we need to grow this dying sport!
> 
> If you maintain your boat to a high standard, which DOES cost money, you will and can minimize losses. If you treat your boat like a floor matt then it will be reflected in your tail end losses...


You state this stuff like it is fact when it is not and there are many variables that come into play, as you yourself have admitted to and stated. My neighbor sold his Sabre 362 for 32k more than he had into it, at the end of the first seasons ownership. At the time Sabre could not build them fast enough and a guy contacted him and made him an offer he could not refuse. Your statement of fact to assign a 20-30% depreciation for the first year is NOT standard. Can it happen yes but in more cases than not the boats retain value much better than that. I suggest you get a password to Soldboats.com and do some research using actual data used by the industry before making blanket statemenst of fact to "newbies" who may actually belive this to be true in ALL cases... 
*
Here's how you came on here and your statement written as fact:*


CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> *DON'T FORGET DEPRECIATION*
> 
> Assign 30% depreciation for the first year on a new boat, 20% for the second year (Or the first year on a used boat ) and 10% (of the original price) for each year thereafter. At some point the depreciation will taper off, but the maintenance will escalate to make up for it.


here's where you are now (if your initial data set was good why the change?):


CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> DON'T FORGET DEPRECIATION
> 
> *Assign 20-30% depreciation for the first year on a new boat*, *10-20% for the second year (Or the first year on a used boat ) and 5-10% (of the original price) for each year thereafter.* At some point the depreciation will taper off, but the maintenance will escalate to make up for it. For the sake of argument, I will remain conservative and use the maximum depreciation scale. These numbers are adjustable by the boat - some will be 25% less depending on the covetability of that boat.


Neglect and depreciation are not one in the same. Neglect results in depreciation but all things being equal all boats DO NOT depreciate by 20-30%, as you factually stated they do in the first year.

Do you consider crashing your car into a light pole in the parking lot, and not fixing it before selling it, depreciation? Sure it resulted in a loss of value, for the reason of neglect, but it is not normal depreciation as defined by NADA, or KBB. The same can be said for a boat. If an owner rubs the dock every time he comes in and does not fix the damage or rips a sail and does not fix it or does not change zincs and ruins the engine this is neglect which causes a loss in value. This would not be a NORMAL depreciation schedule as defined by the IRS.

If I wreck my company car, do not fix it, and then sell it at a loss and it has not yet depreciated by IRS standards I can't take the additional neglect loss.. You are confusing loss in value by neglect and normal depreciation of a below average, average or above average condition vessel. A truly neglected boat does not fit into a below average condition category, it falls into a neglected category. Depending upon the level of neglect the sky is the limit on loss where it is generally not for a below average, average or above average boat..


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## bubb2

For what it is worth, I just went on yacht world and checked the asking prices for my 10 year old Bendy toy! They are ranging from $5,000 less than the new price to about half of the new boat price.

I keep my boat better than most , but I am not fanatic about it. So if we split the difference and I can get 75% of my new boat price back after 10 years, I am a happy camper.


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## betodas

If I run outside and shoot myself, I'm blaming it on this thread. LOL

I am a power boat owner who has fallen in love with being out in the water. I go out a couple of days per week. 
I've been out on a sailboat a few times recently and now I'm dreaming of buying a sailboat next. Of course a small one to do all my learning. I do spend a lot of money on my small power boat but mostly because I love it. I'm at all the different boat stores almost every day buying things I (don't really) need for the boat. 
My question is for anybody who has both a power and Sail boat. Is there a big difference in maintenance costs between the two? 
I really want to learn to sail and will probably buy a small one I can trailer (until I get good enough and comfortable enough to buy a "real" boat).
I definately get CaptFred's point. I'm wasting a lot more than I originally thought. But I love it and don't mind.


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## rayncyn51

I'm a new guy. One poster says one thing about the cost of owning a boat, and a whole boatyard full of posters say something else. Who should I believe? 

This is turning into a rather long and circular thread. As for me, if I can't afford my boat, I'll probably sell my house so I can afford my boat. Owning a boat requires a bit of passion, which, in my estimation, doesn't depreciate, nor does it require manitenance. How then, can we put a dollar value on that which we love?


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## Maine Sail

rayncyn51 said:


> if I can't afford my boat, I'll probably sell my house so I can afford my boat. Owning a boat requires a bit of passion, which, in my estimation, doesn't depreciate, nor does it require manitenance. How then, can we put a dollar value on that which we love?


"Hello my name is Maine Sail and I am addicted to boating."

"Hi Maine Sail welcome to Boaters Anonymous!"

Welcome to BA rayncyn!! It's very tough disease to cure but still may, and I use the word "may" carefully, be less financially devastating than being a Gamblers Anonymous member...


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## N0NJY

> Man, what a 180. That is sort of what I wanted to do here. There were some that just got really peeved that I addressed dreamers and told them it was going to be expensive. All I want them to do is say "yeah but I really want to do it, no matter the costs!" I hope that it has that effect on you!


There was no 180 turn there Fred.

Like you, I have a lot of years in observing people, and my exeperiences while different from yours, are just as important to myself (and I hope to others).

I write - probably more than you do and I was giving you crap in the beginning because of the way you implied your inital story. "Dreamers shouldn't be dreaming" is what you appeared to be saying.

I KNOW and UNDERSTAND you're attempting to impart some wisdom to us all. But, you started this little adventure 60 years ago. Some of us are in our fifties and sixties and we're just starting. We don't really want to hear from someone who is telling us that it's "too expensive to start".

By the time we "save enough money" we're not going to get it done at our ages. I'm not willing to wait any longer. The "dream" is there and it's going to happen, regardless of all the naysayers on this site (and you're NOT the only one....)

Finally - I'm trying to give you a break when I made my remarks. I KNOW what you're trying to do.

My advice though, to you, is write that book AS WELL.


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## Maine Sail

*Selling a boat*

The best money you can spend before selling would be on a full detail by or yourself a qualified marine detailer.

I would focus on the following items in the detail.

*#1 Hull* - Needs to be shiny and as close to new as is humanly possible. Compounding & polishing or one of the acrylics like Poli-Glow are huge pluses.

*#2 Boot stripe* - Must be cleaned of any tannin or rust staining if it is painted and showing it's age paint it.

*#3 Canvas* - Glass should be clear and the canvas should be repelling water 303 Fabric Guard will re-waterproof and Imar Strataglass cleaner is a great product for the glass.

*#4 Boat bottom* - Prop should be clean as should the shaft and have a new zinc thrown on. If on the hard it should be prepped and ready for pain or already painted if you have been using a multi-season ablative. Little details like this make can make a big impression.

*#5 Deck* - Should be clean, sooth areas should be waxed with a produt designed for waxing decks like Woody Wax.

*#6 Metal* - Should be shiny and free of rust spots

*#7 Portlights / Hatches* - Should also be shiny and a good plastic polish will achieve this.

*#8 Interio*r - Every nook and cranny should be cleaned of any mold or dirt & grime and it should smell fresh and clean.

*#9 Bilge* - It should be clean and eat out of it spotless! This is a huge thing for many buyers as a clean bilge has been known to represent a well cared for boat. It is one of the first things many experienced buyers look when entering a boat.

*#10 Engine / Engine Room* - Should also be spotless showing no oil drips or fan belt residue. Any rust should be coated with Boeshield or similar to make it less "offensive". If rust is real bad it should be painted with Ospho or similar then matching color engine paint.

*#11 Ice Box* - Clean and NO mold with hinges and latches working.

*#12 Lines & Running Rigging* - If dirty they should be washed in a front loader with Ivory Snow, Dreft or other non-detergent cleaners and a very small amount of bleach. This can be done easily in a mesh bag.

*#13 Engine Oil* - Must be clean and recently changed with a record book showing maintenance records.

*#14 Maintenance Records / Manuals* - Should be available and in a three ring binder for inspection. It is a good idea to display these on the nav table or the salon table.

*#15 Lockers & Stowage* - Remove anything you are not selling with the boat and organize every locker & cabinet to show & display maximum storage space. Get rid of any personal clutter.

*#16 Personal Items* - Remove any personal efects not transferring with the boat.

*#17 Spares -* Organize any spare parts or parts transferring with the sale and organize and label them.

*#18 Electrical -* Everything should work and you should test everyhthing to prevent surprises. Any loose or sloppy wires shoul be bundled and neatend up with zip ties.

*#19 Sails -* Sails should be available for inspection but not on board. They clutter up the interior and signifigant others can have a tough time seeing past this clutter.

*#20* *Upgrades List -* A complete list of every upgrade, or maintenance item, and approximate dates should be sitting on the galley counter or chart table.

*#21 Screw holes -* Cover them, hide them or put a scew in them it looks better than an empty screw hole.

*#22 Seacocks & Hoses -* All hoses should be visuallu inspected and wiped clean. ArmourAll does amazing things to dirty old hoses. Hose clamps should be clean and rust free. Seacocks should be labeled and open and close freely.

*#23 Anchor Locker -* Should be clean and the rode should also be washed if nylon. A dirty muddy chain and rode does not convey confidence in upkeep & maintenance.

*#24 Lifelines -* Should be cleaned, Magic Erasers work great for this, and any signs of rust should be cleaned.
*
#25 Wood -* Exterior wood should be touched up if varnished or if real bad stripped and treated with teak oil. Teak oil takes very little effort to do and makes a HUGE differece when comparedd to peeling varnish or gray weathered teak. Interior wood should be touched up if varnished and then treated with a product like Orange Glo (LINK). If the finish is oiled it should be cleaned and then re-oiled with a product like Weimans Lemon Oil (LINK). Neither Weiman's or Orange Glo contain any silicone and are good silicone free choices!

By spending the relatively minimal funds to get the above things done it will return much more money than doing nothing. Unfortunately, or fortunately for owners that do this, most owners never take the time to make their vessel ready for sale or staged. This stuff is easy to do! Is a day or two of your time worth another 2, 4, 6, 10 or even 20k more in re-sale value?? Clean boats sell and they sell for more money and faster this is why it is always nearly impossible to find one!!

You only get the opportunity to make a first impression once!


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## N0NJY

CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> So answer this:
> 
> How much is a $20k boat worth after 5 seasons seeing 60 days a season onboard, with no cleaning, maintenance, upgrades, etc?
> 
> MY feeling is, that boat is going to be trashed. You'll be LUCKY if its worth 60% of its original value, and that's assuming you didn't BREAK anything. Everything will be worn substantially.
> 
> So then, how much is that same boat worth if you maintain it to its original condition, maybe you add a small something here or there as an upgrade? Probably close to its original price.
> 
> The question that my article, and what I've spent a lot of posts trying to help many here who don't seem to be getting it is - that maintenance is EXPENSIVE. So are the slip fees and insurance. It all adds up and the longer you keep the boat, the more that number adds up on paper.
> 
> That has been my point since post #1 - Pay it in depreciation after 5 years of total neglect and usage what would you say... 30% depreciation? 40%? 50%? Try to honestly answer that question.
> 
> As many have said here, we buy distress saled boats where the last owner got in over their head and is wearing that boat and can't afford it. In the case of my Coronado, I bought it for 2,000. In working clean condition its worth 8-12k. How much depreciation is that? You tell me.
> 
> And as I said originally, you are arguing about 5 or 10 % depreciation. Even if I'm 50% wrong, were talking a difference of a few thousand maybe. AGAIN thats not the cost I have been talking about since post #1. I'm talking about those TENS OF THOUSANDS you will spend on simply docking the boat, hauling it for storage, getting the bottom cleaned, etc. etc. Basic costs.
> 
> That is stuff that a novice doesn't think about.


What, precisely, is a "novice" in this aspect?

The boat I bought a few months ago hasn't hit the water yet. It is CLEANER now than it was when I bought it. It's had repairs that it needed, the previous owner didn't do.

I've never owned a boat, until now. The previous owner has been a boat owner most of his life, living in the Louisiana Area most of his life, and has owned several boats.

The one I got from his had not been well cared for, and he let several things just "go" (the standing rigging was in poor shape - and wood was never stained or varnished. There are a dozen other things that needed taking care of, which a "non-Novice" didn't DO).

So... I guess a lot of people take exception to this idea that those who are "new to something don't think it through".

As far as I am concerned, buying a boat and getting out there to sail is MORE important than any money I eventually get back out of the boat.

The exception to this will be when we start our long-term cruising. The boat obviously won't care for itself, my wife and I have to do that. I don't intend to give money to "charter captains" to take us places, and I'm damned sure not going to waste money on bare boating (more than a couple times) in my life.

The money it costs to charter a boat is better spent, in my opinion on training, your OWN boat, and your OWN purposes, rather than giving it to someone else to have for themselves. (IF I were to place my OWN boat in charter - which I have already looked at, I would be expecting to have it MAKE me some money, not LOSE me some money).

Finally... If I were to apply the same reasoning you've been applying to Amateur Radio - I'd not be helping ANYONE to join the ranks of radio amateurs in the world, I'd be discouraging them.


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## Cope44

Zang, I almost missed the party.

My thoughts are most folks here who sell their boats will do so for more than they paid. Everyone on this site has love for their boat. We come here to learn about fixing and upgrading our boats.
I don't get the feeling that these are the boats that sit and rot at the dock. 

I already posted here that my boat has gained value. When I look at Main sail's #'s it gives me even greater hope that IF I ever sell this boat, it will be for much more that I paid for it. (It was free) With the knowledge on this site almost any one can take an old derelict and with some love and time breath new life into her.

After you spend some time here you will see the legnths gone to by the people here. Do not forget when you buy a sailboat you get more than the boat. You get a new/Extended family. 

How much is that worth? 
At what rate do friendships devalue?

This info would be better received on a different site, say one where folks knew nothing about sailing.


----------



## NCC320

*Not That Expensive - One Person's Experience*

On the issue that owning a boat is expensive.....It's not free, nor is any other hobby or sport that you really pursue. While it's wise to consider costs, don't destroy the dreams of would be newbies who want to enter sailing before they start. My experience:

Within the range of boats that I have owned, I found that expense more or less goes up with the size of the boat. So if expense will be an issue, stay small. Smaller boats are fun also. You will not be able to cross oceans, but you will find an ease of sailing that many big boats don't. Each has it's own rewards, but often somewhat different.

If you need to keep the costs low, you will notice a significant jump in annual costs (at a real gain in convenience) when you move from a trailerable boat to an in-water boat. The in-water boat brings slip fees and haul out/bottom paint costs. After you are permanently in the water, costs go up somewhat proportionally to increased size. I don't know about really big boats, but I suspect the costs are much higher than the increase in size because most people owning such boats will tend to keep things more pristine and do almost all work using the yard.

I've owned or own the following:

!988 Sunfish (14 ft). Bought used in 1989, paid $1,000, bought trailer several years later $350. Actually is my son's boat. Still own it today. Expenses: $35 for a jam cleat pivot, insurance is home owners policy, so $0. Property taxes ~$35 per year. 20 years ownership and counting.

1970 Venture 24. Bought new, paid $3,900. Kept it 5 years and sold for $5,000. Paid lot storage of ~$35 per month, insurance was no additional cost on my home policy. Maintence items other than soap and water for cleaning, maybe $250 - $300 total for the five years (paint the trailer, 1 new winch cable, a homemade trailer tongue extension, a few tubes of caulk for a leaky swing keel pivot ....new boat, no real maintenance)

1977 Kells 28. Bought new, paid $14,000. Kept it 23 years and sold for $8,500. I checked price on used market during that time, and in the mid period, the resale value was more than I intially paid. The boat, when sold, had some interior issues (that a good DIY could easily handle..I am not a DIY). Also, windows had aged and were ready for replacement. Book value was about $11,500. I discounted it to move it quickly (had another boat on the way) and to cover the anticipated repairs. Annual costs were slip fees of roughly $750 per year, insurance of $320 per year, haul out, bottom painting and hull wax (by yard) $1,000 every 2-3 years. No real maintence problems in those years...bilge pumps, float swiches occasionally, two fuel pumps, exhaust connector, Grp 24 battery every 2-3 years, oil changes, etc... estimate $100 - $200 per year, property taxes ~$200 per year.

2000 Catalina 320. Bought new, paid $80,000. Was looking at a 93-94 model used, dealer explained that I could buy new for just a bit more than the used ones at that time. Still own the boat. Spent perhaps $1,000 on items I added after purchase over the years. In 9 years, no maintenance problems (resew jib cover, resew bimini seam, replace plastic bimini buckles, occasional oil change, engine alignment, replace batteries ($350). On the used market, boats of similar age and equipment, are listed for ~$69K - $80K.
Haul boat every 2 years, paint bottom, wax hull, replace zincs $1200-$1600 each time. Insurance $450 per year. Property Tax ~$400 per year. Slip fees about $2,000 per year.

2001 Catalina 22, bought new $18,300 (includes replacing outboard motor that was stolen). Co-owned with my son. When in water, slip fees $1600 per year, insurance $250 per year.....now on trailer, no slip fees, no storage fee.
Taxes ~$100 per year. Added perhaps $500 in items after boat purchased. No maintenance costs so far...but battery needs replacing ($60). Resales are hard to find, but seem to be about $16,500.

So the costs are not so terrible. All in all, a nice sport at reasonable cost if you keep it simple.

If you go really inexpensive and buy a old, small boat at $1000 - $2000, you'll have to spend money to bring it up to serviceable condition, but if you do the job correctly, you will recover most when you sell it. For project boats just don't do what happened to the Kells 28 (see post Project Boat? - sad case of K28) in buying boats section.


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## seawitch1906

*I never have seen a real Captain call himself a Captain*

less is some kind a validation nonsense .. but it is beside the point ..
this topic being hijacked by this nonsense matrix es, number crunch escapades , magic configurations, and other totally incorrect paradoxes ..

Your "wisdom" pounced upon new sailors as deterrent , not a jolly old man guiding hand as you might like to sell it...
Your endless numbers and assessments, depreciation snake oil tables..do nothing but harm .. 
Yes boating expensive ,wasting time to read your nonsense and perhaps steer away a new sailor who take your hock is way more "expensive" sailing time lost , new dreams lost , some one own experiences deprived .. just to serve your self important mambo jumbo ...
don't part the Red Sea ..let people sail over it ...
enough all ready


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## WouldaShoulda

Maine Sail said:


> Boat ownership is not a sit on the couch, point the remote control at it sport, and it requires a time and labor commitment on your part! All in all though it's not really as much time as most people think, but yes it will require time.
> 
> You need to have a schedule of events and time-line for certain tasks to keep up with it or you'll get so far behind you'll never catch up. Try working on a 100+ foot mega-yacht without a schedule and you'll be screwed really quickly and never ever catch up. Just ask me how I know....


I'm pretty certain that was the thrust of the original post before a bunch od Old Ladies took offense and ran with it!!

Must be Cabin Fever!! :laugher


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## lapworth

*I agree boats cost to much*

That charter sounds great , but I am going to try and have my cake and eat it to. I bought a 24' 1968 lapworht $750.00 last year. Slip fee is $1,400.00 a year and spent $1,500.00 on repairs and the crew that helped me sail it across the bay (bad story). I did all the work my self and the few people I meet at my marina think I am hardcore. I hope they find out there wasting there money so I can get my hands on one of those nice 30' boats. I do get out about twice a week accept January and Febuary and my wife only goes out about 8 times a year. My best first mate is my dog anyway.

The more I see the less I know.


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## N0NJY

> On the issue that owning a boat is expensive.....It's not free, nor is any other hobby or sport that you really pursue. While it's wise to consider costs, don't destroy the dreams of would be newbies who want to enter sailing before they start. My experience:


I've mentioned before, several hobbies. All are on the expensive side.

Shooting..

.223 ammo is running around 25 bucks for 20 rounds.

(Archery) aluminum arrows - about 3-5 dollars each (not counting arrow heads) - usually don't LOSE my arrows, but still, sometimes you have to replace them.

.22 Long rifle ammo is running 4 bucks for 50 rounds.

.357 - a buck a bullet.

Guns themselves aren't cheap. I own quite a few of them. My wife owns more than I own.

==============

Ham radio:

Not much cost once you've invested in the radios. However, the equipment I currently have sitting in my shack is well over 12,000 dollars worth of stuff. If something breaks, I fix it myself. Cost of shipping plus parts is RARELY under 20 bucks. Things don't break often, but usually when they do it is catastrophic.

I replace antenna wires (on long wire and dipoles) just about every two years.

Seen the price of copper lately? Holy cow....

================

Home Brewing:

The minimum cost to make a 5 gallon batch of beer - pretty much any sort is around 36.00 for 5 gallons. Lemme see... 128 oz in a gallon, times 5 is 640 oz, divided by 12 - a typical bottle of beer is 12 oz - equals 53 bottles of beer. Lemme see, that comes to about .66 cents a bottle, plus my time. It takes about 3 hours minimum to make a batch of beer. Then it takes about 2 hours to clean and prep everything to bottle it. (Takes less time to keg it so I usually keg it now)

Basically to make two cases of beer costs me 40 bucks essentially. Probably cheaper to buy cheap beer, but damn, my home brew beats almost ALL the commercial beers out there - and as Warstiener says, "Life's to short to drink cheap beer".

And it takes several HOURS of your time to do it.

================

Online Gaming:

(Yep do this too, World of Warcraft) Usually a couple hours in the evenings. But I pay 15 bucks a month to play on their servers. Have three acounts, one for me, one for the wife and a spare account we use to "store" online stuff... so, there's 45 bucks a month down the toilet. But we ENJOY doing it.

And we get to talk to friends on our headsets, most of my kids play and they are scattered all over, so we get to talk to them every evening as if they were there, while we're beating the crap out of monsters.

=================

Running several web sites:

Annual fees for maintaining servers, domain names and other incidental costs... I don't even want to add them up, but they are pretty "up there". I get NO income from any of them. Thus, they are HOBBIES.

Maintaining computers - OMG... never mind.

=================
Astronomy:

Several thousand dollars in Telescope and associated equipment! (I won't say HOW much this was............)

=================

Sailing:

Already cost me slightly less than 10K in 2008 and I haven't even SAILED YET. Wow.

If I really added all this up, I figure I spend 20% or more of my income a year on these things. I dont live on a boat, I live in a house. I pay electricity bills, water, sewage, I pay for heating in the winter (no Airconditioning in the summer). I pay for trash removal. I have a home phone, two cell phones (one for her, one for me). We don't have car payments since our vehicles are paid off.

I have a mortgage. I am paying a car payment for a daughter - since she decided NOT to pay it and I was a dumb Daddy and co-signed for her before I realized she would be unrealiable.

I have house insurance, car insurance, boat insurance, I have several magazine subscriptions and belong to several organizations that I either pay yearly fees too to remain a member, or I pay for 2-3 years at a time.

If I don't pay for those things I'll get fined, lose my house, have my power cut off, I reckon they would stop up the drains if I didn't pay the sewage bill... they'd put a lien on my house, cut off my phones, gas, sue me, arrest me, stop my mail and kick me out of the ARRL.

Whatever.

Numbers and all that notwithstanding are all fine and good.

But there is something to be said for the dreams people have.

People have dreams to climb mountains, run in marathons, be expert marksmen, go to the Olympics. And they do these things, not without a lot of work and sometimes costs.

Most people RARELY, if EVER consider the costs up front for ANY hobby they do. Only after their insterest is peaked and they get involved, usually deeply, do they begin to consider the problems associated with a particular hobby.

However....

Let me say something here - NOT having been a SAILOR for my whole life, but a military man for the majority of it - I have found that it's not all about how much you save, how much spend, or even, sometimes how you live your life.

It's about QUALITY of life. I've been in places where the people live minute-to-minute, hand-to-mouth and will NEVER, EVER be where any of you folks are. They won't have Internet, computers, sailboats, and they sure as hell won't be traveling the world or cruising like some of you do.

Their quality of life is so poor - and there is not a damned thing WE can do about it, even as a group. There are more poor people in the world who barely get enough to eat daily and all of us put together can't feed them.

But we can feed ourselves. We can DO for ourselves in whatever manner we need to.

And we can up OUR quality of life by enjoying what little bit of it we have.... "Living it day to day And still twenty four hours may be sixty good years; It's still not that long a stay."

So - you know, sailing isn't a cost for most people. It's apparently a state of mind, and that's where this soon-to-be-Sailor will be.


----------



## WouldaShoulda

N0NJY said:


> I've mentioned before, several hobbies. All are on the expensive side.


Could you break down the projected depreciation on those items??


----------



## Cruisingdad

For any potential newby's getting into sailing - I will tell you that my "depreciation" numbers are nowhere near the numbers quoted here. Most of my boats have been new. 

I mean no disrespect to the original poster (who, incidentally, I think is simply trying to help out)... but my numbers are nowhere near that.

- CD


----------



## Skipper Joe

I like my boat. I'm poor. I'm OK. It appreciates in sentimental value every time I step aboard. I am proud to be Financially Independent (FREE OF MONEY)


----------



## hellosailor

" An antique Chevy Mustang "
Damn, you can tell there are no gearheads in THIS forum.

My Mustang was Built By Ford. Toook a while before I really learned what "FORD" meant.<G>


----------



## Cope44

Yeah I'll bet a chevy mustang could get expensive....

Ford
First On Race Day, Or any thing else you can think of.

Ok back to topic.


----------



## eherlihy

hellosailor said:


> " Toook a while before I really learned what "FORD" meant.<G>


Found On Road - Dead


----------



## Yamsailor

Okay--so from all this talk it seems:

1) If one wants to sail--there is a way to do it;

2) What and how you sail is based on your budget; and

3) Interest/passion for the sport/lifestyle will drive 1 & 2.

-- I can live with that.


----------



## therapy23

Yamsailor said:


> Okay--so from all this talk it seems:
> 
> 1) If one wants to sail--there is a way to do it;
> 
> 2) What and how you sail is based on your budget; and
> 
> 3) Interest/passion for the sport/lifestyle will drive 1 & 2.
> 
> -- I can live with that.


*And there you have it.*
Perfect.

Thank you.

I will now unsubscribe to this thread because I can't read people saying the same thing with different words and pretending to disagree any more.


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## poopdeckpappy

> I like my boat. I'm poor. I'm OK. It appreciates in sentimental value every time I step aboard. *I am proud to be Financially Independent (FREE OF MONEY)*


Now, there's a guy who will soon figure out the meaning of life............. minutes before he passes out in a hamock from too much sun & rum


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## sander06

poopdeckpappy said:


> Now, there's a guy who will soon figure out the meaning of life............. minutes before he passes out in a hamock from too much sun & rum


We got a guy down the dock from us just like that. He's an alcoholic, however!!:laugher


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## Gramp34

CaptainFredGreenfield said:


> So answer this:
> How much is a $20k boat worth after 5 seasons seeing 60 days a season onboard, with no cleaning, maintenance, upgrades, etc?


I don't know about where you are, but boats that see "no cleaning, maintenance, upgrades" in five years are not the norm anywhere I've been (with the possible exception of some of the free anchorages in Florida).

In fact, I'd call them the bottom 1-2% of sailboats.

I understand your purpose in writing your advice article, but I think you'd be more convincing giving typical experiences with boats.

For instance, say that like any other physical asset, boats come with ongoing expenses, e.g.,
- regular cleaning,
- wax once or twice a year,
- engine oil & filter changes semi-annually,
- insurance,
- mooring or slip rental and possibly winter storage,
- haul and bottom paint every year or two,
- a coat of varnish on brightwork once or twice a year,
- make provision for longer term replacements:
--- dacron sails may have a useful life of 4000 hours
--- wire rope standing rigging should be professionally inspected at 10 years
--- older engines may need valve jobs and other serious maintenance
--- deck fittings should be rebedded every 5-10 years

and so on...

Then, rather than some blanket statement that a sailboat costs $X per year, let people know what's involved and let them figure out if it's in their budgets for the boat they have their eye on.

And let them know that except for the wealthiest sailors, we all do some degree of our own maintenance and save on the cost. Point out the resources available, for instance, all the books and magazines and sites like this that cover boat maintenance.

I'll also suggest getting away from those "the boat costs $X per year, if it is not sold after 5 years" statements. They're meaningless. For instance, would you say a $250,000 house costs $50,000 per year if you don't sell it after 5 years?



> As many have said here, we buy distress saled boats where the last owner got in over their head and is wearing that boat and can't afford it. In the case of my Coronado, I bought it for 2,000. In working clean condition its worth 8-12k. How much depreciation is that? You tell me.
> 
> (snip)
> 
> That is stuff that a novice doesn't think about.


I've seen a lot of run down boats, and the only two stories I've run across is either:

The boat's been owned for decades by the same guy, who's gotten old and doesn't have the interest or energy to maintain it, or the heart to sell it (a variation is a useless kid inherits a good boat and lets it go to pot), or, 
Someone buys a boat on a whim, takes it out a time or two and realizes they just don't like it, then lets it sit until they're forced to sell.
I haven't yet seen a run down boat that was that way because the novice owner wasn't keeping it cleaned and maintained due to cost.

If it was the novice buyers getting into financial trouble and losing their boats, you'd expect lots of repossesions. But it doesn't seem to be happening. If fact, maybe the opposite is the case. Soundings magazine in August interviewed a boat repo man:



> "I would say 99 percent of the time the boats repossessed are power, and I've been in the business for 16 years," Ferguson, 50, says. "I can't say for sure why, but it seems that those looking for a sailboat are more cautious buyers."


What's the ratio of powerboats to sailboats? About 90:10? It appears that sailors just aren't getting into the financial difficulty that your article suggests.

And in this thread we haven't seen droves of novice sailboat owners saying they couldn't afford their boats, so let them die of neglect, have we?

Yes, owning a sailboat cost money, but it's not nearly as dire a situation as your original article made it sound. I think that's what most of the reaction has been about.

Cheers,

Tim


----------



## seawitch1906

*"Captain Crunch" You really do way more harm then...*

keep reading your nonsense "Captain Garfield" , the good Captain is sure determined to steer any light hearted soul away from sailing .. in any way he can .. 
All his numbers are incorrect, all his expense factors are unrealistic , just out to scare people ..why? 
If you missed out of validations in a last 70 years ... this is not the way to get some

If you have no REAL intention to help but parade your "bottomless wisdom" , and make people stop on they track in your account ..then you do harm.
You not educate just demolish , your data is bogus , and your logic is make a accountant cry ..but sure don't help any one who love or willing to sail and spend that all might money for a better quality life ( I know that is way over your head)


----------



## Cruisingdad

seawitch1906 said:


> keep reading your nonsense "Captain Garfield" , the good Captain is sure determined to steer any light hearted soul away from sailing .. in any way he can ..
> All his numbers are incorrect, all his expense factors are unrealistic , just out to scare people ..why?
> If you missed out of validations in a last 70 years ... this is not the way to get some
> 
> If you have no REAL intention to help but parade your "bottomless wisdom" , and make people stop on they track in your account ..then you do harm.
> You not educate just demolish , your data is bogus , and your logic is make a accountant cry ..but sure don't help any one who love or willing to sail and spend that all might money for a better quality life ( I know that is way over your head)


I do not believe any of his posts are for anything but to try and help other. I do not find any hidden agendas. And better a sailor that stays a dreamer than one who gets in over his head and ends up broke and having to sell (or worse, repo) his passion. Certainly you agree with that?

Also, you can attack the ideas, but not the person. Do not make this personal. He has not. All he has tried to do in his posts is help and give his experiences. And though my numbers do not add up to his, nor do yours, I hope he sticks around.

- CD


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## seawitch1906

*I hope you right but I 'm not sure*



Cruisingdad said:


> I do not believe any of his posts are for anything but to try and help other. I do not find any hidden agendas. And better a sailor that stays a dreamer than one who gets in over his head and ends up broke and having to sell (or worse, repo) his passion. Certainly you agree with that?
> 
> Also, you can attack the ideas, but not the person. Do not make this personal. He has not. All he has tried to do in his posts is help and give his experiences. And though my numbers do not add up to his, nor do yours, I hope he sticks around.
> 
> - CD


nothing personal, and everything is personal> 
We an I, LOVE sailing , cruising , and help newbies to go to sea.. yes it is better to have some idea , but we all learn and there is no fiscal consideration when comes to sailing .. in principal .. 
If the captain would be correct (witch he is not) and would paint a pictures encourage people, show feelings and actual say anything correct with the overtone the love of the sport it would be different .. He is non of that ..
what he is .. bored old guy who try to get some attention .. and that yes hurt people who actually read his stuff

sorry Dad .. I do respect your note , now and before hand but I;m disagree with you an this .. I can be wrong (as many times ) but good old Cap' is just self serving and wrong ..


----------



## Cruisingdad

seawitch1906 said:


> nothing personal, and everything is personal>
> We an I, LOVE sailing , cruising , and help newbies to go to sea.. yes it is better to have some idea , but we all learn and there is no fiscal consideration when comes to sailing .. in principal ..
> If the captain would be correct (witch he is not) and would paint a pictures encourage people, show feelings and actual say anything correct with the overtone the love of the sport it would be different .. He is non of that ..
> what he is .. bored old guy who try to get some attention .. and that yes hurt people who actually read his stuff
> 
> sorry Dad .. I do respect your note , now and before hand but I;m disagree with you an this .. I can be wrong (as many times ) but good old Cap' is just self serving and wrong ..


Have you read any of his other posts? What about the thread on choosing a marina? That certainly is not self serving. His entire web site is devoted to trying to help people and his experiences. Cut the guy some slack. Coming to Sailnet and sharing your experiences and trying to help other people is what this is all about. Like I have said before, my numbers do not agree with his. Still, his premise about making sure you know what you are getting into is right.

I doubt there is a boater alive who did not end up spending more on boating than he had originally planned. Well, at least not a boater whose boat is sea worthy.

- CD


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## Slayer

That's why joining a sailing club made so much sense to me. I joined Boston Harbor Sailing Club as a gold plus member. I paid around $4,000 in advance for a May to October membership. I can take out any one of their four Cal 33's, a Pearson 34, one of two J29's, plus their Pearson 26's and Albin 28's. I am self employed, so I can take off days mid week to sail, and never had problems reserving a boat. I don't know how difficult it will be to get a boat on weekends for the early summer. But I was a member this past year from August - October and never had problems getting one of the Cal 33's on a weekend.

They provide the fuel, maintenance, moorings and a free launch to take you to your boat. Also you can pick up boats on Boston Harbor, Salem Harbor or a couple of locations on the Cape.

Of course these are club boats, so are a little rough cosmetically. But they are just fine for me. I'll buy my own boat someday, but for now this really works for me.


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## scupper42

*Facts are Friendly*

I owned a 1968 26' Snapdragon for over a decade in partnership with my brother in law. We bought the boat for about $10K CDN from my father in law. We sold it a couple of years ago for $9K. Every year expenses ran about $6k including slip fees (expensive here), insurance, & maintainance.

This was a solid, seaworthy, well maintained boat. I felt great selling it to the next buyer knowing he was getting a fine boat.

Less than $300 / month. Pretty much all the sailing we could ever want.

It was cheaper than a golf habit. It's knowledge that is the barrier to sailing. Not money. It's as expensive as you want it to be.

Now I have ten times the capital tied up in a boat. I pay 3 or 4 times the upkeep.

I still anchor in the same anchorages, eat the same crabs, drink the same wine and watch same sunsets.

Of course now I don't fold up the kitchen table to sleep at night, and I have hot and cold running water and refridgeration. And to me, it's worth it.

There is no need to frighten off the dreamers. Just help them learn how to live their dreams.


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## hellosailor

Scupper?
" Every year expenses ran about $6k including slip fees (expensive here), insurance, & maintainance. ...
...Less than $300 / month. "

Ah, $6k/year = $500/month, Canadian or US.


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## scupper42

Exactly. $500 / month with a partner = $250. Say $200 US. 

I can't think of the number of people I've taken out sailing and their impression is "wow, this is amazing if only we could afford it." They drive to the marina in a $30,000 vehicle. Of course they can afford it. It's just a matter of what the priority is...


----------



## WouldaShoulda

scupper42 said:


> Exactly. $500 / month with a partner = $250. Say $200 US.
> 
> I can't think of the number of people I've taken out sailing and their impression is "wow, this is amazing if only we could afford it." They drive to the marina in a $30,000 vehicle. Of course they can afford it. It's just a matter of what the priority is...


In season we go to the boat EVERY WEEKEND so the that kind of expense is worth it, easily.

Once people lose interest however...


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## bubb2

I only complain about the boat expense when she sitting on stands during winter storage. (like now) Once she hits the water in the spring, no complains.


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## eherlihy

*Slack time...*

Critics,

Please lighten up on this guy. He states in his first post that his intent is to *HELP *prospective boat owners by realizing that there are hidden costs; "It may help those looking to buy a boat think about all those other costs involved."

In the OP he states a typical dream, then he analyzes the dream, "realistically, how many days will you [be able to use a boat]?" This is a great point! He discloses some costs (aquisition, depreciation, slip rent, liability insurance - IMHO he left some stuff out) and factors in resale after a period of time to arrive at a total cost of ownership (TCO).

He then compares his cost per year of ownership with charter costs. Surprise! He figures out that a charter costs less per year."So remember next time you are having that dream... unless you can get some serious usage out of your sailboat, and can stomach the thousands of dollars it will take to own a sailboat yearly, maybe you don't need to own a sailboat after all!"

*Anyone that is scared off from buying a boat by this analysis should not be buying a boat in the first place. *

As a married male, I could make perform a similar analysis on homes (versus rentals - especially since the second half of 2008), women (why get married, when you could just, depending on your goal, get a dog, a maid or see a hooker? ) or children (why have them at all? - 2 step sons in college cost us over $80K per year, not counting food, fuel and insurance for the car, clothing, supplies, soap, and toilet paper when they come home&#8230 What is the return on any of these?

My point is, as CP once pointed out to me ("if I have that big of a spreadsheet on a boat, I'd walk"), *buying a boat is an emotional decision not a financial one*.

I also belonged to the BHSC, just like Slayer. (BTW- you may be interested to know that if you ever want to take out a larger boat, Mark will only charge you the difference between your membership level and the rental). However, I have decided that the boat club or charter arrangement will not work for me. I want to know exactly how the boat is set up, and where things are kept. I want to know what all the buttons on the GPS do. I want it equipped with the best equipment that I can afford. I want a different anchor than a Danforth. I want to know what compromises in equipping the boat were and why. I am the guy that will pay the price (be it time, money, or both) if something breaks, so I want the ability to maintain the boat that I'm on. I don't want to get pissed at the owner, or anyone else, because something wasn't provisioned, maintained or repaired to my standard.

I appreciated the analysis in the OP. I don't know if I agree with any of it, but I haven't yet bought my boat. I am still looking, despite being laid off in November, and the college and home expenses mentioned above.

CaptainFredGreenfield - Welcome to Sailnet!


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## Yamsailor

Amen!


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## rolla

petmac said:


> Owning a boat is expensive. Yes it is.
> Depreciation 30 % first year, 20 % second year. Thats a pretty general statement. Not so for all boats.
> 
> http i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg211/9Belleview/DSCN0025.jpg


i guess i'm not "sr" enough to paste links so I split up the above.

Nevertheless, what yacht was this? Simply stunning. My guesses are a CAL, Morgan, Islander...??


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## sailaway21

Oh for god's sake! Boats are expensive but generally cheaper than women. End of story.


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## TSOJOURNER

*Dreamin*

Bought a sailboat 6 months ago for 7K. 33 ft Islander and have been living on it ever since. I live on a mooring in downtown San Diego and rent is $147 a month. 38 latitude. Yes no serious winter and I can sail all year, but I'm sick of people who insist how expensive it is. I save TONS of $ in rent and have a view you can't buy. It's all relative is all I have to say. If you can do repairs yourself or are willing to learn DO IT!


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## SURV69

*I don't understand*

why a paid-for boat has depreciation listed as an "expense"?

Granted, depreciation would diminish value, but it can only diminish the value of the item.

SO . . . a $20,000 depreciates until it's worth nothing, meaning the expense of the depreciation was $20,000 and the value of the boat is nothing, meaning that the $20,000 orginally spent, is now lost.

BUT it remains ONLY $20,000, not $20,000 PLUS the depreciation amount.


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## Maine Sail

eherlihy said:


> I appreciated the analysis in the OP. I don't know if I agree with any of it, but I haven't yet bought my boat. I am still looking, despite being laid off in November, and the college and home expenses mentioned above.
> 
> CaptainFredGreenfield - Welcome to Sailnet!


I don't think folks had an issue with the vast majority of it just some of it like the stated depreciation.

What happened to the Pearson 34 did I miss something?? I could have sworn you had a Pearson or were surveying one an buying it..??


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## rolla

How on Earth did your bell housing mounting get cracked as show in your photo... that had to add up to some expense, at least in your DIY time!

www pbase com /mainecruising/image/107573211


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## TSOJOURNER

> Oh for god's sake! Boats are expensive but generally cheaper than women. End of story.


And by and large they look much better after 35 odd years of wear and tear


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## Yamsailor

So true


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## TSOJOURNER

I appreciate the advice. At least the dream'n is free!


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## sailingdog

bad casting...  Factory defect that got by....


rolla said:


> How on Earth did your bell housing mounting get cracked as show in your photo... that had to add up to some expense, at least in your DIY time!
> 
> www pbase com /mainecruising/image/107573211


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## zAr

I'm not an accountant but my understanding is depreciation is only a business expense. If you have no income from the boat, you can't depreciate it, because depreciation is an accounting method to relate expenses to income, or for the purposes of determining taxes on the income. 

So, in other words, I think we have an apples and oranges situation here. Since most boat owners are not in the boat business, depreciation doesn't apply? 

Check out the Wikipedia article on depreciation, for instance.

Finally, my impression of the foregoing discussion is: you buy a boat, if you own the boat for longer than a few years, even if you upkeep it, it becomes salvage and you sell it as junk. Therefore, it's not worth it! 

If so, I don't think that's "depreciation". Without income to relate the declining value to, it's not depreciation. Without a company with assets, expenses, profits, etc., there's no depreciation. Without a bookeeper or auditor to declare and account for the depreciation, there's no depreciation.

Am I wrong?


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## hellosailor

zAr, depreciation still applies.

Depreciation refers to the fact that the value of all goods decreases as they age. "Depreciating" the value of assets refers to showing that loss on your balance sheets, or on your taxes if the tax code allows you to do that. For instance, a corporation that buys a new masonry and steel building, or a thousand miles of transmission wires and towers, cannot just write off the "cost" of that all at once. They are tradiitonally allowed to "depreciate" the cost over a _40-year period_. (In some cases less.)

Now, is a brick building worth zero, forty years after you buy it? Maybe, maybe not. That's the magic of tax codes and accounting.

But I guarantee that if you buy a 250,000 yacht now, in ten years it won't resell for 250,000. It might sell for 125,000, and that means it depreciated by half. When you try to get your money back--you'll only see half of it, and you've lost money to depreciation, regardless of businesses and business expenses and tax magic.

Buy a new car for $25,000, take it home, and your tree falls on it six months later. Your insurance might pay you $22,000 for the total loss, and you say "But it was new!" Wrong, it already depreciated by $3,000 as soon as you took it out of the showroom and it became "used".


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## WouldaShoulda

sailingdog said:


> bad casting...


Godfather Part III

WORST CASTING EVER!!

Sofia Coppola??


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## zAr

hellosailor said:


> zAr, depreciation still applies.
> 
> Depreciation refers to the fact that the value of all goods decreases as they age. "Depreciating" the value of assets refers to showing that loss on your balance sheets, or on your taxes if the tax code allows you to do that. For instance, a corporation that buys a new masonry and steel building, or a thousand miles of transmission wires and towers, cannot just write off the "cost" of that all at once. They are tradiitonally allowed to "depreciate" the cost over a _40-year period_. (In some cases less.)
> 
> Snipped...


Are you saying that depreciation still applies to non-business owners? E.g. people with no business set up? Maybe things are different in the US but up here in Canada balance sheets, incorporations, etc., are generally for businesses. Do you write off your house, for instance, or things which aren't related to your business?


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## mccary

*Depreciation VS resale value*

I am thinking some people here are confusing the depreciation of a boat to the resale value of that boat. If you buy a boat for $100,000.00 and sail it away, sure it depreciates instantly as a used boat. And each year it continues to depreciate by some amount. This is NOT a tax deductible expense (unless your boat is set up as a business in USA). But for those who feel compelled to put a dollar value on their passion of sailing the have at it. Myself, I buy the boat I can afford and sail it. If and when I decide to sell my boat I will dig up the resale value; until then It is my boat and that's all that matters. Now I do struggle with recurring expenses like slip fees, yard fees for haul outs, new sails, engine repairs, dock lines and the ever constant upgrades (I am buying new ST winches this year), etc. Those expenses are real and do cost a bundle. My suggestion is if you are they type of person who feels compelled to put a dollar amount on your sailing, either charter or crew on a friend's boat, its way cheaper annually.


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## seafrontiersman

With respect to Capt. Greenfield....

Bull***t!

I have investment money and I have disposable (and I do mean disposable) income and I don't mix the two. I agree with you that buying a boat is not a good investment strategy unless you are a salvor but I'm willing to forgo other pleasures to sail. By the way, sailing is good exercise and good health is about the best investment a person can make; just sayin...

Mike


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## TSOJOURNER

*holy cowabunga*

I took accounting in college and you guys are killing my brain cells.
Here is how I see it. 
My boss is an idiot, pays me squat, I get frustrated at not being in control. Everyone tells me "Don't do this, don't do that!"
For the prie of sailing ($1600 slip fees...$800 on the hard fees...$200 in diesel fuel...$200 in repairs ((at least SOME repair per year)..total = $2800

To be out in the wind, in control, away from the Marina Moron, the crap of society, the ills of no retirement, and all the rest of the **** life offers...then to me sailing is priceless....


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## seafrontiersman

christsake:

AMEN Brother! I couldn't say it better myself! 

What we're talking about here is freedom, not soybeans or real estate or pork bellies. 

Nothing is so important than freedom and no one is more free than when he is on the water in his own craft.


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## mccary

*What a sailboat is...*

*"What a ship is, you know, it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, **that's what a ship needs. But what a ship is,... really is, is freedom."*
 * -Johnny Depp, as Captain Jack Sparrow*​*Pirates of the Caribbean-*​


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## johnshasteen

Stop trying to figure out how much it will cost, how fast it will depreciate or what will it cost to keep it up - if you want a boat, buy it and enjoy it. That's what you all do with cars - pay big bucks, drive it off the lot and lose your ass. Keep trading cars and you'll keep losing your ass. My theory is buy the car and boat you want and keep it for so long that cost and depreciation don't matter. I bought my '84 300CD Mercedes new in Nov '84 for $36,630 - is it worth that now - of course not - have I gotten my money's worth after 25 years - yep!! I bought Paloma many years ago for a lot of money - is she worth the big $$$ no that she's 30-years old - of course not - have I gotten my money's worth -yep!!


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## J24mark

I have made money on every single boat I have owned. To name a few:

Monterey 190 ski boat
Tanzer 22
Hobie 18
Coronado 25
Etc.


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## Wannafish

J24mark said:


> I have made money on every single boat I have owned. To name a few:
> 
> Monterey 190 ski boat
> Tanzer 22
> Hobie 18
> Coronado 25
> Etc.


That's good, cause I've LOST money on every boat I've owned (6 = 3 sail, 3 power). Would I do it again? You bet. I love boating!


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## SSBN506

Boats are quite simply a big wast of money. But I cant think of a better way to wast it. Just don't wast more then you can afford.


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## therapy23

SSBN506 said:


> Boats are quite simply a big wast of money. But I cant think of a better way to wast it. Just don't wast more then you can afford.


And there you have it.


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## tschmidty

I appreciate all the replies here, but I would personally like to thank Cptn. Greenfield for taking this on. 

The numbers are just the ballpark and may be at the high end of the range for all of this, but that is the whole point. It is better for newbies to go in with eyes wide open than unrealistic expectations. In my mind is best to go in with a high estimate, and hope you can bring the costs down but don't count on it.


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## therapy23

tschmidty said:


> I appreciate all the replies here, but I would personally like to thank Cptn. Greenfield for taking this on.
> 
> The numbers are just the ballpark and may be at the high end of the range for all of this, but that is the whole point. It is better for newbies to go in with eyes wide open than unrealistic expectations. In my mind is best to go in with a high estimate, and hope you can bring the costs down but don't count on it.


Works for me!

Exactly what is driving my search (and offer) right now.

Wish me luck!.


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## Yamsailor

Unfortunately I my prediction came true in a sense---I wish I was wrong. However I do recall being criticized for my earlier suggestions. 

April 1, 2009

Boats Too Costly to Keep Are Littering Coastlines
By DAVID STREITFELD

MOUNT PLEASANT, S.C. — Boat owners are abandoning ship.

They often sandpaper over the names and file off the registry numbers, doing their best to render the boats, and themselves, untraceable. Then they casually ditch the vessels in the middle of busy harbors, beach them at low tide on the banks of creeks or occasionally scuttle them outright.

The bad economy is creating a flotilla of forsaken boats. While there is no national census of abandoned boats, officials in coastal states are worried the problem will only grow worse as unemployment and financial stress continue to rise. Several states are even drafting laws against derelicts and say they are aggressively starting to pursue delinquent owners.

“Our waters have become dumping grounds,” said Maj. Paul R. Ouellette of the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. “It’s got to the point where something has to be done.”

Derelict boats are environmental and navigational hazards, leaking toxins and posing obstacles for other craft, especially at night. Thieves plunder them for scrap metal. In a storm, these runabouts and sailboats, cruisers and houseboats can break free or break up, causing havoc.

Some of those disposing of their boats are in the same bind as overstretched homeowners: they face steep payments on an asset that is diminishing in value and decide not to continue. They either default on the debt or take bolder measures.

Marina and maritime officials around the country say they believe, however, that most of the abandoned vessels cluttering their waters are fully paid for. They are expensive-to-maintain toys that have lost their appeal.

The owners cannot sell them, because the secondhand market is overwhelmed. They cannot afford to spend hundreds of dollars a month mooring and maintaining them. And they do not have the thousands of dollars required to properly dispose of them.

When Brian A. Lewis of Seattle tried to sell his boat, Jubilee, no one would pay his asking price of $28,500. Mr. Lewis told the police that maintaining the boat caused “extreme anxiety,” which led him to him drill a two-inch hole in Jubilee’s hull last March.

The boat sank in Puget Sound, and Mr. Lewis told his insurance company it was an accident. His scheme came undone when the state, seeking to prevent environmental damage, raised Jubilee. Mr. Lewis pleaded guilty last week to insurance fraud.

While there are no reliable national statistics on boating fraud, Todd Schwede, an insurance investigator in San Diego, said the number of suspicious cases he was handling had roughly tripled in the last year, to around 70.

In many cases, he said, the boater is following this logic: “I am overinsured on this boat. If I make it go away so no one will find it, the insurance company will give me enough to cover the debt and I’ll make something on the deal as well.”

Lt. David Dipre, who coordinates Florida’s derelict vessel program, said the handful of owners he had managed to track down were guilty more of negligence than fraud. “They say, ‘I had a dream of sailing around the world, I just never got around to it.’ Then they have some bad times and they leave it to someone else to clean up the mess,” Lieutenant Dipre said.

Florida officials say they are moving more aggressively to track down owners and are also starting to unclog the local inlets, harbors, swamps and rivers. The state appropriated funds to remove 118 derelicts this summer, up from only a handful last year.

In South Carolina, four government investigators started canvassing the state’s waterways in January. They quickly identified 150 likely derelicts.

“There are a lot more than we thought there would be,” said Lt. Robert McCullough of the state Department of Natural Resources. “There were a few boats that have always been there, and now all of a sudden they’ve added up and added up.”

In January, it became illegal in South Carolina to abandon a boat on a public waterway. Violators can be fined $5,000 and jailed for 30 days.

“We never needed a law before,” said Gary Santos, a Mount Pleasant councilman.

Not that having one is necessarily proving much of a deterrent. Mr. Santos took a spin on a friend’s motorboat the other day and saw a newly abandoned catamaran within seconds of leaving the dock.

It had been run aground at an awkward angle, a weathered “for sale” sign testament to the owner’s inability to get rid of it. Local watermen said the boat had abruptly appeared one day in February, and had not been touched in weeks.

“Boats are luxuries,” Mr. Santos said. “This isn’t a good moment for luxuries.”

South Carolina’s unemployment rate in February was 11 percent, the second-highest in the nation after Michigan. The online classified ad service Craigslist in Charleston, S.C., features dozens of boats for sale every day. “Wife’s employer is downsizing and we are forced to do the same,” read one post.

Mr. Santos, 50, grew up in this well-to-do community on the northern side of Charleston harbor. In his youth, he never saw an abandoned boat. As recently as a decade ago, they were no more than an occasional nuisance.

Now they are proliferating. Crab Bank, a protected bird rookery in the harbor within sight of Fort Sumter, is home to a dozen derelicts — two sunken, two beached, the other eight still afloat. They range from houseboats to a two-masted sailboat.

State officers have placed placards on each, warning that the vessels have been identified as abandoned. Thanks to a local ordinance sponsored by Mr. Santos, the Mount Pleasant police are also tagging the vessels. After 45 days, they will be removed and junked.

California is taking a more benign approach, with plans in the Legislature for a boater bailout of sorts. Under a law proposed by State Representative Ted Lieu, owners of marginally seaworthy vessels would be encouraged to surrender them to the state. If they abandoned the boat, the bill would double the fine to $1,000.

The legislature passed the bill last year, but Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger returned it and many others unsigned during the state’s long struggle to settle on a budget. The measure has been reintroduced this year, and unanimously passed the assembly’s transportation committee last week and could become law as early as this summer.

Kevin Ketchum, general manager of California Yacht Marina, which operates six marinas in the state, predicted that the law “is going to be phenomenally popular. It will help honorable people who want to do the right thing but can’t afford it.”

The cost of the disposals would be paid by existing fees on boat owners. Mr. Lieu said that “in a perfect world” the fear of punishment would be enough to get people to stop abandoning boats.

“But to actually enforce that would take way more governmental resources than we have,” he said.


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## TSOJOURNER

Going to the boat witha sandwich for Lunch.
Putzing around on the boat on weekends.
Napping on the foredeck in the sun.
Discussing why it broke and how to fix it with other boat owners.
Then there's sailing; alone, with friends, with strangers, for an hour, for an afternoon, for 1 day, 2 days, a week, 2 weeks.

Who cares what it costs.

ps: What sailor would marry a woman who didn't understand the boating disease. In my younger years, the second date was usually on the boat. If they didn't love it..... Next!


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## Yamsailor

Economics plays a big factor in purchasing power for everyone.


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## vega1860

It is a great time to be in the market for a boat. A friend of mine recently picked up a San Jaun 24 in nice condition for $200. When we moved it into his slip we met the new owner of a sistership across the dock. He had gotten his for nothing because the previous owner was tired of paying moorage on a boat he did not use. There are a lot of astonishing bargains out there.


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## zAr

I think economically things may be somewhat better in Canada, so Americans looking to sell might want to look north before they dump or sink their boats.

What a waste. 

At least send us back the CS36's and Niagara 35's. They want to come home. (Pretty please)


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## SweetSurrender

N0NJY said:


> Yeah. Why the hell do any of you bother to dream, or do?
> 
> I don't get it either.


We can try to rationalize all we want why we even dream about owning a depreciating item that could potentially cause us amazing financial headaches.

However, I believe that it is completely possible to not be a checkbook sailor and save a considerable amount of money over the equations for expenses expressed previously.

There are certain things that are worth losing money over.


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## SweetSurrender

N0NJY said:


> Yeah. Why the hell do any of you bother to dream, or do?
> 
> I don't get it either.


We can try to rationalize all we want why we even dream about owning a depreciating item that could potentially cause us amazing financial headaches.

However, I believe that it is completely possible to not be a checkbook sailor and save a considerable amount of money over the equations for expenses expressed previously.

There are certain things in life that are worth losing money over.


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## sailak

Good grief.

I didn't buy a boat because it was a sound financial thing to do. I didn't buy the airplane for that reason either. I bought them because I wanted them and I could afford to operate them.

There's more to life than money.

As for the charter option..sure it's probably a better "financial" option but I find scheduling my boat much less of a hassle, everything is a tradeoff. <G>


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## jephotog

While not being a very good accountant, I did study it in Collidge.

I am not sure how to amortize this, but I estimate the first time you drink a beer while grilling some sausage (I recommend Savoie's) in your own cockpit is well worth the first years depreciation cost. An epic day on the water is worth the second years depreciation. If you are worried about the cost you might have spent more on your boat than I have, or you do not enjoy beer, sausage or sailing as much as I do.


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## jephotog

sailak said:


> Good grief.
> 
> I didn't buy a boat because it was a sound financial thing to do. I didn't buy the airplane for that reason either. <g>


Someone quoted me recently.

"You know the fastest and slowest way to spend a lot of money"
</g>


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## rickysail

sailak said:


> Good grief.
> 
> I didn't buy a boat because it was a sound financial thing to do. I didn't buy the airplane for that reason either. I bought them because I wanted them and I could afford to operate them.
> 
> *There's more to life than money.*
> 
> As for the charter option..sure it's probably a better "financial" option but I find scheduling my boat much less of a hassle, everything is a tradeoff. <G>


I couldn't agree more, unfortunately people are often so caught up in their day to day lives they often don't do things they really want to do and have a passion for, sometimes you just have to "push the boat out" - so to speak - and splash out on a bit of luxury


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## Yamsailor

If you can afford it and have the time--just do it.

I would not however borrow against your house to buy a boat.


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## Delirious

"You have no right to own a yacht if you ask that question"

J.P. Morgan, Sr, in answer to a question by Henry Clay Pierce of how much it costs to own and run a yacht.

No one needs a sailboat. We do this because we can and we love doing it. Justification be damned.


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## WheresTheBrakes

just go NOW !!
Do it NOW.. 
think about it forever, wish forever, get hit by a bus.. 
Just get on a boat now !! make it better if you can !


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## roline

The cost for sail boat loan, slip, and insurance is far less expensive that money spent on a shrink, and you have something to show for it.


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## TQA

I sold my house, quit my job and went sailing for 7 years when I was 42. 

The boat was called CARPE DIEM. There were so many great moments that money could not buy. One of the best things I have ever done.


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