# VHF DSC Handheld with AIS?



## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

I may be looking for something that does does not exist;

A handheld VHF with DSC and built in GPS is available but how about one with built in AIS receiver?


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

Exactly what do expect it to tell you? The best it can do is give you coordinates, name, heading, speed etc but how do you interpret that? What use would this be?

You could use the data and plot it on a paper chart manually but the speed of the updates would ecventually overwhelm you.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

Although technically not difficult to build (after all, fixed mount units already exist) my guess is they will be a long way coming. The problem is battery power. Although GPS receivers and AIS receivers don't take a lot of current they are on 100% of the time. The AIS receive is just scanning two extra VHF channels but the decoder logic, just like DSC decoder logic (which is, sadly, a different protocol) would add to the battery load. Also, as pointed out, you would need to power a bigger display to get any useful information out of the device.


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

What I would like in my fantasy VHF DSC GPS AIS handheld would be, the bearing from my position, MMSI number, name of vessel and heading of vessel within a radius of 1nm, 5nm or 10nm. The bearing tells me where to look, the heading the vessel is traveling tells me if I should pay attention, the name and MMSI number is information I need to give them a call.

A larger chart screen would be a bonus but then that is getting away from handheld size.


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## FatBear (Jul 29, 2009)

I would like a handheld with AIS & DSC for my own safety: not so I can see other boats, but so they can see me. I row and sail in a busy area and want large commercial craft to know I'm there so they don't run over me.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

In a row boat, they would know you are there and still run you over. Law of tonnage.


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## FatBear (Jul 29, 2009)

But they might give me a toot. 

The law of tonnage gives them the right of way, but not the right to kill with impunity. They may have the law on their side, but they will never work again if they don't at least try to warn other traffic of impending problems. I am alert and have never had a near, or even far, miss with a tug or ship in over 17,000 miles of rowing and probably that many sailing and fishing, but I have seen a lot of them. Weekenders, especially, are always running afowl of tugs, but the tugs try really hard not to hit them. Some of those clowns really ought to be run over so you know there are consequences to the tug operator if they do it with impunity.


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## FatBear (Jul 29, 2009)

BTW, did you know you can watch the commercial traffic in your area right at your computer: Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions And no, I'm not a troll or a shill and have no association with them at all. It's just interesting.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

svzephyr44 said:


> Although technically not difficult to build (after all, fixed mount units already exist) my guess is they will be a long way coming. The problem is battery power. Although GPS receivers and AIS receivers don't take a lot of current they are on 100% of the time. The AIS receive is just scanning two extra VHF channels but the decoder logic, just like DSC decoder logic (which is, sadly, a different protocol) would add to the battery load. Also, as pointed out, you would need to power a bigger display to get any useful information out of the device.


Who makes a fixed mount one that does all three? Standard Horizon have a fixed mount AIS/VHF, although it requires a GPS input and Icom have a handheld GPS/VHF. It can only be a matter of time before someone solves the power issues and combines all three. The usual 12V power cord would solve most of the problems, surely????.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> In a row boat, they would know you are there and still run you over. Law of tonnage.


There is no actual law of tonnage, just to clarify a wisecrack.

The big freighter may have the right of way as less maneuverable or possible as commercial vessel, however, all vessels have the responsibility to avoid a collision.

Serious bottom line is that I do not think any rowing vessel (canoe, kayak, rowboat, whatever) should put themselves in a position that conflicts with less maneuverable vessels of any kind, unless totally unavoidable. It drives me crazy to have kayaks in a busy channel, when there is plenty of room in the shallows to the side that can't be used by the motoring vessels.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

The item you want may actually NEVER be built. AIS is to identify a particular ship and a handheld can easily be moved from place to place. Don't know if they'll go for that.

MedSailor


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Doesn't the MMSI in a DSC capable VHF also pertain to a specific vessel? They are available as handheld units.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

PaulinVictoria said:


> Doesn't the MMSI in a DSC capable VHF also pertain to a specific vessel? They are available as handheld units.


Sure, but you have to push the Distress button to transmit it and that wouldn't really alert an oncoming tanker in real time. It seems the OP wants commercial traffic to see them paddling along in real time and move around, if there is an unintended conflict. I think that is much easier accomplished by staying out of the deep water channel.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

Let me take a moment and clarify my previous statements. Lets presume that a handheld unit existed (perhaps by now one does) that combines a VHF radio, a GPS, and a receive only AIS. VHF radio transmissions are line of sight. Given a height of eye of about 3 feet (you are sitting rowing) your end of the equation is a range of about 2 NM. The other end is where you get all the distance. You might be able to see a commercial ship at 10 NM away. You will not see most fishing vessels and a lot of "work boat" type vessels as they are not required to carry an AIS and most of them don't. Now lets add transmit to your AIS. Stipulating that they have solved the power problem (it has a 99th generation battery, a solar panel, a wind generator, and a towed generator) it still is putting out about 6 watts. Effective range - 3 to 5 NM. For most fast moving commercial ships (except for Carnival Cruise Lines - they turn for nobody!) 3 NM is about the range at which they need to start taking evasive action to give you a wide enough passing range. Again, assuming that someone is actually paying attention on the bridge (1) in any wave pattern they most likely can't see you against the background of the waves and (2) they have to start reacting immediately.

Will someone put it all together in a single handheld package? Sure, there will be a market. But will it make you safer? I think only on a very marginal basis.

I just transited the Atlantic from Florida to Portugal with a 25 watt radio and a masthead mounted antenna. In iffy weather (which disperses the radio waves) I would get a good fix on commercial ships at a range of 8 to 10 miles. As a safety measure I would frequently call them on the radio and ask "are you aware I am here and that I am a sailboat under sail?" Those conversations frequently took 3 to 5 minutes before I was satisfied that they had the picture in hand. Even so several of the ships considered 0.2 NM a safe passing range - something that still made me uncomfortable.

I hope this helps.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

Right now cost, and manufacturing volume is a limiting factor. Plus if they sell you an all in one unit, how can they convince you to buy all three. 

But just wait, it will happen, (probably not a handheld AIS transmitter because the whole point of an AIS is that it is fixed to a specific point on a ship).

Read the RTD SDR thread. Some very smart guys are working on it. As soon as someone puts together a good working system, expect it to sell. Then the big guys will scramble and catch up.

Remember AIS got a very slow acceptance in the rec boating comunity.
Fears of mandatory compliance with a big expensive system designed for commercial ships, and "BIG BROTHER" heavy handed regulations, raised fears of ALL boaters being forced by LAW into buying a major expensive gadget, or face heavy fines.

Also the main purpose of this device among small fishing boats would be to steal each others favorite spots. Or give thieves, and other scofflaws your location.

The Coast Guards backing off from mandating small craft, the creation of the cheaper class B, and the perception of the usefullness, has caused AIS to grow more popular in the boating community. 

Once the demand increases enough, the equipment manufacturers will take notice. Meanwhile buy the handheld VHF & GPS units, and they will compete to add more features as the popularity increases. 

Standard Horizon was the first I know of to make a VHF & AIS combo unit, (I think they didn't want to compete with their Chartplotter & GPS). To combine the two requires two seperate radio receivers, (one MHZ & one GHZ). These are very seperate technologies.


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## svzephyr44 (Jun 26, 2000)

CapnBilll said:


> To combine the two requires two seperate radio receivers, (one MHZ & one GHZ). These are very seperate technologies.


Actually AIS transmits on the VHF marine frequency band channels 87B and 88B. That is why you can use your VHF antenna to transmit both the AIS and voice (VHF)

What is very different are the DSC and AIS decoders


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## Rune (Jan 23, 2013)

I am curious if this device is still not in existence or on the way as far as anyone knows. If it still isn't happening I would just try to make a case for it's existence for sea kayaking.

Personally, I am a kayaker about to get a handheld VHF with GPS/DSC for safety anyway. But if that handheld had AIS in any form, that would be a big improvement for some situations I think.

I am not concerned so much about the situations that other posters seem to be, the very congested and cramped waters near harbours and such. In a kayak the easiest way is simply to go where no-one else can go or wont go as close to. Although it might sometimes be nice to see what is coming around the corner.

No, mainly I am conserned with open crossings of 5-50nm which I have been doing or are thinking about doing in the future. On those crossings in a slow moving kayak it can easily take more than 30min in a shipping lane where all traffic in and out of the baltic passes. And for that amount of time ahead, very big things can hide under the horizon or simply be too hard to see. And a kayak is damn near impossible to see and very impractical to install a radar reflector on. I would feel a lot better showing up on their AIS somehow. So having an AIS transmitter, even without the ability to see other ships would be a huge benefit.

Even if an AIS transmitter function could not be intregrated a recieve only function would be a big help. I agree, though, that it would require a bit of thinking to get a useful piece of information from a small display and a lot of data. But you can get a lot of help from simple data processing by electronics in ranking the risk individual ships pose to you. How about a list of 3-10 AIS contacts sorted by some kind of "threat level" based on points given for minimum passing distance on current course, time-to-collision assuming an immediate turn to collision course, high speed, track history of turning towards collision course. And you could give a flashing outline and audible alarm or similar for contacts that are actually on a collision course and within, say, 2-5min of collision. In a kayak in big waves you often won't be able to look at a display much without risk of capsizing, so a synthesized voice warning of high risk contacts would be a great safety feature. You could also present the same data on a graphical display with icons placed inside or outside a circle based on direction and their worst case time-to-collision and then have them marked more strongly the closer they are to actually being on a collision course...plenty of room for useful information even without any display at all, in my oppinion.

I don't know how useful the ideal kayaker's device would be to other people on the water, but it might be pretty close to what some of them need aswell.


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

The product exists as a fixed mount with external antenna; VHF, DSC AIS recieve and transmit.

At some future date as with the Personal Locator Beacon evolution from a larger unit, I suspect these function will be available in a handheld.

For the AIS receive function all a small boater really would find useful is bearing and speed of the other vessel, for crossing a shipping lane now or waiting.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

FatBear said:


> I would like a handheld with AIS & DSC for my own safety: not so I can see other boats, but so they can see me. I row and sail in a busy area and want large commercial craft to know I'm there so they don't run over me.


I cant see where this would be avantagous. I can only imagine every kyaker, rowboater and swimmer starting to use the AIS feature and there being so many of them that people start ignoring them. As it is in busy harbors it can be almost annoying with boats on radar, now add kyakers and rowboats to the AIS screens it will defeat the purpose it is being used for...boating safety.

Dave


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Tim R. said:


> Exactly what do expect it to tell you? The best it can do is give you coordinates, name, heading, speed etc but how do you interpret that? What use would this be?
> 
> You could use the data and plot it on a paper chart manually but the speed of the updates would ecventually overwhelm you.


I have a SH 2150 with AIS, installed a remote mic (RAM3) - it has a mini display that shows the AIS hits on it.

Not quiet the same of course, but it can be done.

Of course the AIS is also patched to my chartplotter.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

While it would be nice for tankers to detour around kayaks, on a practical basis isn't that like asking semi rigs to detour around gnats on the highway, instead of splattering them on the grill? There's only do much dancing the big fellows can do.

Since the FCC issues licenses to "Portable" stations, with the expectation that they will move to different vessels, under adult supervision by the licensee, why not portable AIS transmitters, with the same expectation that the operator WILL reprogram them as appropriate?

I understand that the default icon for a vessel identified as "Portable" comes up on AIS displays as a dolphin carrying a suitcase. Can't see how that could confuse anyone.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I don't think anyone is asking tankers to detour around kayaks.

As a kayaker I try to stay out of the shipping lanes, but just like any other boat I do need to cross them from time to time (for instance getting from Anacortes, WA to the San Juan Islands requires crossing Rosario Strait, a major shipping lane). I pick the shortest possible crossing point, monitor VTS, and wait for the lane to be visibly clear before I cross.

Checking AIS would just be one more thing to check. It's probably not as good as monitoring VTS for an hour before the crossing, but it might help for large boats that aren't updating VTS. VTS monitoring is most helpful in Puget Sound for areas with regular ferry traffic (since they check in with VTS on every crossing, which is about every 30 minutes at most ferry terminals), but isn't as helpful when you are away from the ferries.

I don't think most kayakers intentionally paddle up and down the middle of shipping lanes. It is way less interesting than going along the shore.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I also have the SH GX2150 fixed mount radio. First thing I did was add the RAM3 mic, since in an emergency situation you want to be able to transmit from the cockpit. Having the radio display in the cockpit is also very beneficial.

Here's what I've gleaned from the manual and other online sources, although I have not fully tested out the capability to be 100% sure that it really works:

One really nice feature of the AIS receiver is that you can select a vessel that shows up on your AIS list and place a DSC call to that vessel without having to manually enter the 9-digit MMSI number. Since most radios do not have numeric keypads, entering a 9-digit number would have to be done with an up/down button or knob, one digit at a time - a major pain, and virtually impossible in an emergency situation. So being able to select a vessel from the AIS screen and just tap "call" is a BIG DEAL.

So here's the real benefit: If both you and the vessel that you are calling have your DSC radios set up properly, he will receive your GPS coordinates when you place the call to him. So you don't actually need an AIS transmitter to let another vessel know your position - just place a DSC call to him. (Likewise, if you receive a DSC call from another vessel, you get his GPS coordinates.) If you press the Distress button, your GPS coordinates go out to all vessels. Placing a DSC call does the same thing, just one vessel at a time. On my radio, there is also an "all ships" call that you can place that will send your GPS coordinates out with lower urgency than the "Distress" button.

If you're in a kayak, I can see that letting another vessel know your location by simply placing a DSC call to him could be a huge safety benefit.

This same feature is available on portable DSC radios, but you have to know a vessel's MMSI number to place a DSC call to one ship, and that's not easy to get without AIS. (I think you could still do the "all ships" and "distress" calls with a normal DSC radio.) But having AIS integrated in your radio not only gives you the MMSI number, but it also allows you to place the call without entering the number by just selecting the vessel.

The benefit of having AIS integrated in your radio to facilitate getting MMSI numbers and placing calls is so great that I have to think that someone will eventually come out with a portable version with DSC/GPS and AIS receive capabilities.

Meanwhile, you should go to Standard Horizon's website and download the manuals for the GX2150 fixed mount radio to get familiar with the AIS features, and also download the manual for their HX851 portable radio with GPS/DSC. You'll learn a lot about these radio's capabilities, including features that many owners don't even realize that they have.


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## jnye (Jun 24, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> I also have the SH GX2150 fixed mount radio. First thing I did was add the RAM3 mic, since in an emergency situation you want to be able to transmit from the cockpit. Having the radio display in the cockpit is also very beneficial.
> 
> Here's what I've gleaned from the manual and other online sources, although I have not fully tested out the capability to be 100% sure that it really works:
> 
> ...


Did a search and found this thread which I'm reviving. Nice summary btw.

My ideal situation is a bit different. When running sailboat races, I would like to see the position of the mark boats (up to three) on my plotter to help them place turning marks using their range and bearing. So I'm looking for a non-emergency way of locating their position. Like the OP I thought of handheld VHFs with AIS. SH's most fully featured handheld appears to still lack a AIS capability so I'm guessing such a handheld is not generally available. But as pointed out above, I can make a DSC call to a specific handheld (I'll know the MMSI number of each unit). So my questions are: Can you make multiple simultaneous DSC calls resulting in the positions of up to three other boats displaying to the plotter? And is this the way to accomplish what I want or is there some other non-emergency type of locator that could be used? Thanks!


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

FatBear said:


> I would like a handheld with AIS & DSC for my own safety: not so I can see other boats, but so they can see me. I row and sail in a busy area and want large commercial craft to know I'm there so they don't run over me.


An AIS transponder is transmitting ID signals at 10 watts you will run out of battery pretty quickly with a handheld at that level. Making your safety concerns a moot issue pretty quickly. An AIS receive only unit might be the best you can do. But, you will have to make the call to the ship but, at least you will have a ships name or and/or MMSI number.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

mbianka said:


> AIS is transmitting ID signals at 10 watts you will run out of battery pretty quickly with a handheld at that level. Making your safety concerns null and void pretty quickly.


Class B AIS generally runs at 2W.

Class A AIS devices run at 12.5W; some have a 2W low power mode.

There is a Class B variant at 5W but I've never seen one.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

SVAuspicious said:


> Class B AIS generally runs at 2W.


Doesn't sound like much, but an AIS transmitter would be 2W of continuous tranmission. It would drain the handheld's battery pretty fast.

I think jnye is confusing AIS receivers with AIS transponders. It's unlikely that a handheld would ever have an AIS transponder built in (but "never say never"). It would be nice if someone came out with a handheld VHF/DSC with AIS receive capabilities - especially nice if it could transmit DSC/AIS by Bluetooth, so a laptop, tablet, or phone could pick up the sentences for display in chartplotter software.

If jnye wants to "be seen," his only options right now are a radar reflector and a fixed-mount AIS transponder.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Positioning mark boats & marks shouldn't need AIS and interactive screen plotting at all.

You decide where you want the marks, run a pencil line on an old fashioned paper chart to the margins, and give each mark crew the co-ordinates of that location. Then you hand 'em a smartphone or a dedicated GPS and you say "Go to this position and drop the mark."

No further communication or tracking of the mark boat is needed. Just a fourth-grader on the boat who can READ their position and match it up to the required one.

Of course in the old days we needed twenty more slaves to row the mark boat, plus the drummer to call out a beat and keep them all stroking together, plus a taskmaster to keep 'em all whipped into submission. Boy you kids got it easy now!


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Transmit power is only for a few miliseconds every 30 second. Not much power at all.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

TakeFive said:


> Doesn't sound like much, but an AIS transmitter would be 2W of continuous tranmission. It would drain the handheld's battery pretty fast.


26.6 milliseconds (ms) every 30 seconds when underway. Most likely in the scenario noted it will be 26.6 ms every 3 minutes. That is hardly anything in the scheme of a handheld VHF battery.

I agree with the note above about using specific locations and a GPS. With tactical windshifts you best approach is to set the pin and committee boat first and then direct using voice commands from the committee boat using a compass and binoculars. You'll want a wind pennant on the mark boat. In the end that will be faster, easier, and more accurate than using AIS or radar and doing all the calculations - by the time you are done the wind will have changed.


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## FatBear (Jul 29, 2009)

It's been a while. I see a lot of good information and a lot of generalizations from people who don't read very well. Such is life on a forum. Like kayaks expecting aircraft carriers to maneuver around them. How silly.

The OP might have had a kayak, my followup questions were in regards to rowing. When rowing you are not facing in the direction that the boat is headed. Twisting around and using headband mirrors give you glimpses of what's ahead, but that's all. And you don't need to be in some hypothetical main shipping channel to be forced to share the water with larger vessels. Pretty much everything is a larger vessel. 

In my particular case, I row on the Multnomah Channel, in Oregon. It is probably around 600 ft wide on average and has 200 feet of marinas along one side. Speed boats use the side opposite the marina and there is nothing more dangerous to a rower than a nutcase in a speedboat. So rowers tend to stick to the marina side. That puts you sort of vaguely within the 200 feet center area of the channel where the tugs also go.

Now I have worked on tugs, so don't go all blah blah blah about their lack of maneuverability and such. Every tug and every tow is a different situation. In some situations they are as maneuverable as a sports car, in others the resemblance is more like the Queen Mary.  I happen to know one of the regular tug captains along this stretch of water and am waving-familiar with the others. I have talked to them all from time to time on my little handheld so they know that I am _not _going to do anything wacko in front of them. They find it reassuring.

But the channel is twisty and it is not uncommon for even something as large as a 280' tug/tow to come around a bend between looks over my shoulder and surprise me. Wouldn't it be nice if I knew it was around that bend? Yep. And wouldn't it be nice for them to see me and know it was me and not some oblivious dufus? That would take a bit of worry off of their shoulders and who knows, maybe they'd even call me up and say "good morning, here I come."

Maybe a handheld AIS/DSC/VHF isn't necessary, but it would be handy. My boat is an open-water rowing shell and has ample capacity to stick a motorcycle battery ahead of the seat. And I no longer row more than an hour. So power isn't such a big issue. But I can see how I am a special case in that regard, so maybe the AIS part isn't practical for most people. And large scale consumer electronics must appeal to a lot of people. I'm not holding my breath.


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## L.A. Sail (Mar 13, 2015)

Get a sat phone and gps test app


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

SVAuspicious said:


> Class B AIS generally runs at 2W.
> 
> Class A AIS devices run at 12.5W; some have a 2W low power mode.
> 
> There is a Class B variant at 5W but I've never seen one.


Oops you are right. Somehow I thought my AIS on board mentioned something about it being 10 watts.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

TakeFive said:


> I think jnye is confusing AIS receivers with AIS transponders. It's unlikely that a handheld would ever have an AIS transponder built in (but "never say never"). It would be nice if someone came out with a handheld VHF/DSC with AIS receive capabilities - especially nice if it could transmit DSC/AIS by Bluetooth, so a laptop, tablet, or phone could pick up the sentences for display in chartplotter software.


There are now AIS SARTs ( AIS-SART - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ). The concept of building that capability into a waterproof VHF (like the Standard Horizon line) is intriguing, and given the innovation we have seen from Vertrex, may be likely.



mbianka said:


> Oops you are right. Somehow I thought my AIS on board mentioned something about it being 10 watts.


If you have an AIS with a display it may indeed draw up to 10W. That is total power consumption, not that associated with the transmitter. That is still less than 1A peak.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

SVAuspicious said:


> If you have an AIS with a display it may indeed draw up to 10W. That is total power consumption, not that associated with the transmitter.


I have a separate Vesper display only unit at the helm cockpit location. The transponder electronics reside elsewhere.Though I usually turn the display off when at anchor. Unless I want to engage in some ship spotting for fun.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

mbianka said:


> I have a separate Vesper display only unit at the helm cockpit location. The transponder electronics reside elsewhere.Though I usually turn the display off when at anchor. Unless I want to engage in some ship spotting for fun.


PLEASE go silent on your transponder when you are anchored or at a dock. PLEASE. The shear number of recreational boats transmitting interminably from docks, moorings, and anchorages greatly reduces the effectiveness of AIS alarms.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

SVAuspicious said:


> PLEASE go silent on your transponder when you are anchored or at a dock. PLEASE. The shear number of recreational boats transmitting interminably from docks, moorings, and anchorages greatly reduces the effectiveness of AIS alarms.


I'm rarely find myself staying at a dock but, always turn the transmit off there and on the mooring. Though I leave it on when at anchor to comply with USCG regulations.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

mbianka said:


> I'm rarely find myself staying at a dock but, always turn the transmit off there and on the mooring. Though I leave it on when at anchor to comply with USCG regulations.


Which regulations would those be?


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

SVAuspicious said:


> Which regulations would those be?


_*When must AIS be in operation?* Vessels equipped with AIS (either by mandatory carriage or voluntarily) must abide by the requirements set forth in *33 CFR 164.46(d)* and should especially ensure their AIS is in properly installed, using an assigned MMSI, and, that its data is accessible from the primary conning position of the vessel. *Also, that it be in 'effective operating condition', which entails the continuous operation of AIS and the accurate input and upkeep of AIS data fields during all times that the vessel is navigating (underway or at anchor),* and, at least 15 minutes prior to unmooring. Should continual operation of AIS compromise the safety or security of the vessel or where a security incident is imminent, the AIS may be switched off. This action and the reason for taking it must be reported to the nearest U.S. Captain of the Port or Vessel Traffic Center and recorded in the ship's logbook. The AIS should return to continuous operation as soon as the source of danger has been mitigated_."

I believe at anchor the AIS transponder switches to an anchor mode where it only sends position updates every few minutes as opposed to much more frequently when underway.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

mbianka said:


> 33 CFR 164.46(d)


Hmm. Wrong citation. However there is a requirement elsewhere in §164.46 for use at anchor only for vessels for which carriage is required. See AIS Requirements. If you Google for the GPO citations make sure you have the new version of §164.46 that went into effect on 1 March 2015. Voluntary carriage vessels are not effected and I argue become a safety hazard by running their AIS all the time. People will have to turn off their collision detection functions (or shoot themselves) to deal with all the boats in slips and on moorings.



mbianka said:


> I believe at anchor the AIS transponder switches to an anchor mode where it only sends position updates every few minutes as opposed to much more frequently when underway.


Dynamic data is sent every 3 minutes and static data every 6 minutes. Displays generally maintain data for 12 to 18 minutes. The issue is not a radio availability one - it is false collision alarms going off.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

SVAuspicious said:


> Hmm. Wrong citation....Voluntary carriage vessels are not effected and I argue become a safety hazard by running their AIS all the time. People will have to turn off their collision detection functions (or shoot themselves) to deal with all the boats in slips and on moorings...


I'll let you guys argue over whether the citation is correct.

But as a practical matter, I do wonder why an anchored vessel does not pose a potential collision hazard that warrants continued AIS transmissions if it has the capability. Yes, too many targets on the screen can be an annoyance, and too many alarms can be a distraction and even a hazard. But I think the issue here is not the AIS transmissions, but the way the chartplotter handles the data.

I have never used a commercial chartplotter for display of AIS data, but I will point out that OpenCPN (which is what I do use) does offer the ability to suppress alarms for anchored/moored targets. It will even suppress their display on the chart if you want. That, along with the ability to tune alarms based on range, CPA and TCPA, allows one to minimize any false alarms.

So my question is, if a free open source program like OpenCPN can do this, why can't an expensive commercial chartplotter do it?


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

TakeFive said:


> But as a practical matter, I do wonder why an anchored vessel does not pose a potential collision hazard that warrants continued AIS transmissions if it has the capability. Yes, too many targets on the screen can be an annoyance, and too many alarms can be a distraction and even a hazard.


The latter is my point. I'm not talking about five, or ten, or even fifty commercial ships in a roadstead. I'm talking about recreational boats in slips, on moorings, and at anchor.

To my knowledge, collision alarms are based on the calculated CPA and/or the measured offset. Consider an example: entering Spa Creek in Annapolis from the Severn River. If the AIS warning circle is 1 nm (not unreasonable on the Chesapeake Bay), every active boat on a mooring and on both sides of Spa Creek (including all the really big boats in Yacht Basin and at AYC) will trigger alarms, and the Watermark dinner boat coming down the creek will disappear into the noise. The time to manage the confusion will distract from situational awareness, particularly watching the world around us directly.



TakeFive said:


> I have never used a commercial chartplotter for display of AIS data, but I will point out that OpenCPN (which is what I do use) does offer the ability to suppress alarms for anchored/moored targets. It will even suppress their display on the chart if you want. That, along with the ability to tune alarms based on range, CPA and TCPA, allows one to minimize any false alarms.


If alarm suppression is based on transmitted mode then it will only work on Class A targets (and I've seen, as I'm sure you have, ships underway transmitting "Anchored" as their status, and at anchor transmitting "Underway").

If alarm suppression is based on SOG that would be more interesting.

I do not object to those who choose to keep their AIS transmitting in isolated anchorages. In major anchorages, mooring fields, and certainly in slips I suggest to do so is at least rude and potentially a hazard to others.



TakeFive said:


> So my question is, if a free open source program like OpenCPN can do this, why can't an expensive commercial chartplotter do it?


Because OpenCPN has a development methodology that is more agile, more responsive to the users, and has a development team that listen carefully to feedback from the real world.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

OpenCpn also has the advantage of being free software, downloaded from the internet. If a feature doesn't work properly and you bump your boat, the judge is probably going to ask you what you expected. Buy a $5,000 plotter from West Marine and their is likely to be a commercial standard to be met, albeit, not a guarantee. 

I'm not saying OpenCpn wouldn't meet it, but they probably have a lower liability bar to get over before publishing.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

SVAuspicious said:


> ...If alarm suppression is based on transmitted mode then it will only work on Class A targets (and I've seen, as I'm sure you have, ships underway transmitting "Anchored" as their status, and at anchor transmitting "Underway").
> 
> If alarm suppression is based on SOG that would be more interesting...


The latest version of OpenCPN does offer alarm suppression based on SOG of target boats. I haven't tried it on the boat yet, but in my desktop testing using pre-recorded NMEA logs, if I set a minimum speed of 0.2 knots, then boats that are anchored (but reporting themselves as underway) do not generate alarms (while moving vessels do generate alarms). I can also hide the zero/low speed vessels from view if they're cluttering up my screen too much.


SVAuspicious said:


> ...OpenCPN has a development methodology that is more agile, more responsive to the users, and has a development team that listen carefully to feedback from the real world.


Sounds like a good business model for commercial software. That's a radical thought, this stuff about listening to the users.  And they do it with a fraction of the resources vs. the commercial developers.

I do agree, though, that Dave Register and the rest of the OpenCPN team is an amazingly talented group, and part of their responsiveness comes from actually USING their own product. Commercial developers often lose that, especially if they don't pay their programmers enough to afford a boat.


Minnewaska said:


> ...OpenCpn also has the advantage of being free software, downloaded from the internet. If a feature doesn't work properly and you bump your boat, the judge is probably going to ask you what you expected. Buy a $5,000 plotter from West Marine and their is likely to be a commercial standard to be met, albeit, not a guarantee.
> 
> I'm not saying OpenCpn wouldn't meet it, but they probably have a lower liability bar to get over before publishing.


I think this excuse is a bit lame. These features to reduce false alarms are not rocket science, they're good design. If you bump your boat because there are too many continuous alarms constantly distracting you, then your liability argument is an incentive for the commercial companies to figure out a way to filter them out.

And I sense that Dave is very concerned about liability as OpenCPN has evolved into a sophisticated product. They are working very hard to comply with ECDIS standards - apparently even more than some of the commercial chartplotters.

I agree that running AIS in the slip is rude, but on a mooring or at anchor, I'm not so sure. I think it's the job of the software to filter it out. The guy at anchor should not unilaterally decide that "nobody wants to see me." He has his own liability to worry about too.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> .....I think this excuse is a bit lame. These features to reduce false alarms are not rocket science, they're good design......


I'm certainly not making excuses for them, I don't know their reasons. I have to add, however, that OpenCpn was the most confusing installation I've ever attempted of any marine software system. Maybe they just focus their efforts elsewhere.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> The latest version of OpenCPN does offer alarm suppression based on SOG of target boats.


That's cool. What would be better though is if you could change the alarms for "anchored" boats instead of just suppressing them. Using SOG might make the becalmed sailor, the fisherman, and the disabled NUC vessel all disappear from your view because of their immobility. If, on the other hand you could set a 1 mile alarm for anything that is moving, and a 100yard alarm for anything stationary, you would have a really great feature.

MedSailor


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I think you guys are flogging the wrong horse.

You're saying (debating) that showing too many vessels on the screen clutters the screen and effectively degrades the system, so people should (debatedly) turn off their AIS.

No! That's a kludge that ignores the real problem.

The problem is BAD COMPUTER INTERFACE DESIGN. Bad design and bad programming, if you will. We've all seen enough of that, and how long did it take before GPS software displayed your location with a "spot" big enough to represent the position uncertainty, rather than always using a misleading same-size tiny dot?

Screen clutter can and should be addressed by insisting the vendors clean this up in their software. There's no reason why AIS displays could have a "surface clutter" button, just like radars, which would show anchored, moored, unmoving vessels in general as "dots" with no further information to clutter the screen--unless the user brought that information up with a swipe or click somewhere. (And if that needs a change of poorly written AIS regs, that can happen too.) Hide the little boats, hide the big boats, hide the boats that haven't moved in 12 hours...take your pick, this can all easily be done in the display parameters.

Heck, this could even be implemented in a firmware update on existing systems--if the vendor was bright enough to have allowed for that.

This is just poorly thought out graphic design, something that tech companies are infamous for.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

I don't think you are correct.

I have an AIS receiver on my boat. There is a large boat with an AIS transponder that is DOCKED a short distance from my boat. For some reason, he runs his transponder 24X7. Whenever I leave my mooring and enter the fairway, my AIS alarm goes off b/c of this boat. His speed is zero, but since I pass about 50' from him on my way out, the CPA is small and the alarm goes off. The same thing happens when I return.

How can MY system safely filter that boat out? Just because it's not moving doesn't mean I can't collide with it. He is broadcasting AIS and I pass within 50', that's close enough (rightly so) to trigger an AIS warning. FYI when I obtain additional information on this vessel, it reports as UNDER WAY, with a speed of 0 kts and a course of 0 degrees.

I have gotten in the habit of turning all AIS alarms during nice weather because of too many false alarms.

Barry



hellosailor said:


> I think you guys are flogging the wrong horse.
> 
> You're saying (debating) that showing too many vessels on the screen clutters the screen and effectively degrades the system, so people should (debatedly) turn off their AIS.
> 
> ...


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> ...I have to add, however, that OpenCpn was the most confusing installation I've ever attempted of any marine software system...


Hmm, I'm curious to hear what you found confusing. You apparently never installed SeaClear, which required you to run a fully separate program to identify the chart location. (That was confusing!) That was my only prior experience prior to installing OpenCPN, and OpenCPN was a piece of cake in comparison.

As I see it, the biggest issue with OpenCPN is the fact that it's designed to display charts all over the globe. Since it would be impossible to supply detailed charts for the whole world (and it would fill your storage with a bunch of unnecessary charts), they have to leave it up to the user to download his own charts (fortunately they're free from NOAA for US sailors). Then once you install the program, you need to tell it what folder contains the charts.

The program is getting much more sophisticated, with lots of optional plugins and more settings, but in my experience installing it on new tablets, the default settings get it up and running very well, once you tell it where the chart directory is located.

If there was another source of confusion, I'd like to hear about it, so maybe I can have them do something about it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> Hmm, I'm curious to hear what you found confusing. ......


I would say it was three or four years ago now, so my memory is a bit fuzzy. I probably should have said configure, rather than install.

I installed the software on a Fujitsu Lifebook. Getting the program downloaded and installed was not that tough. I recall some trouble getting the charts to work, pointing to correct folders, finding and downloading the proper charts that I needed. They may be free, but to a novice, it wasn't at all clear where I had to go to find the downloads and which of the hundreds I needed. The huge hassle I had was getting the gps dongle to talk to OpenCpn. I vaguely recall messing with comm port assignments and baud rates and it was still very difficult. I would not have just known to do this, I had to read tons of troubleshooting posts to even know where to start looking for trouble.

Not long after, I bought an ipad for other reasons. I went to the app store, tapped on Charts & Tides East Coast and literally within a few minutes of waiting for it to download, it all just worked. Every chart from Maine to Florida, zero config settings.

OpenCpn was like starting a Model T. Gear in neutral, brake set, ignition on, choke set, wind starter by hand, play with peddle, choke and ignition, while she starts.

My Ipad was like starting my current car, where it unlocks the door by knowing my hand is on the door handle and I tap one button to start, because the car knows the key is in my pocket.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> ...The huge hassle I had was getting the gps dongle to talk to OpenCpn. I vaguely recall messing with comm port assignments and baud rates and it was still very difficult. I would not have just known to do this, I had to read tons of troubleshooting posts to even know where to start looking for trouble...


That sounds like an issue with your dongle, and Windows. You would have had the same problem setting up any other PC software. There's no question that having the GPS built into the iPad makes it easier - except for those who bought iPads without GPS. Those guys would have a little more trouble.

Let me check with the OpenCPN guys. Maybe they can program something that will poll the COM ports and look for NMEA streams automatically.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> That sounds like an issue with your dongle, and Windows. You would have had the same problem setting up any other PC software. There's no question that having the GPS built into the iPad makes it easier - except for those who bought iPads without GPS. Those guys would have a little more trouble.


I wouldn't know what the problem was, the dongle, windows or the program, but they need to live together. I sympathize that the disparate environment is part of the problem, but it's still a problem. I'm not an Apple devotee and they have issues too, however, controlling everything from end to end is a great advantage with compatibility.

Actually, I've used an ipad without gps too. Bought the external bluetooth gps. Installation process....... turn it on, tap on bluetooth line. Ridiculously simple. Automatically worked with all gps apps.



> Let me check with the OpenCPN guys. Maybe they can program something that will poll the COM ports and look for NMEA streams automatically.


What they need to do is make whatever that means completely unrelated to the user experience.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

SVAuspicious said:


> Hmm. Wrong citation. However there is a requirement elsewhere in §164.46 for use at anchor only for vessels for which carriage is required. See AIS Requirements. If you Google for the GPO citations make sure you have the new version of §164.46 that went into effect on 1 March 2015. Voluntary carriage vessels are not effected and I argue become a safety hazard by running their AIS all the time. People will have to turn off their collision detection functions (or shoot themselves) to deal with all the boats in slips and on moorings.


That citation was from the U.S. Coast Guard Navigation site. AIS Frequently Asked Questions. They key wording IMO is "(either by mandatory carriage or voluntarily)" Putting AIS on my boat was certainly a "voluntary" choice. From that USCG Navigation FAQ site it appears that when at "anchor" I should keep it on. 
I contacted the USCG Navigation Center both by phone and email and got conflicting information. I mentioned being a recreational boater with a Class B transponder and asked if I should keep it transmitting when at anchor and was told "yes" on the phone. The response to my email was that they will be amending the FAQ site pending approval of the wording. But, the bottom line is (at least from the email I got):
_"Voluntarily users of AIS are not required to have their AIS in continuous operations, but, are not prohibited from doing so. As to whether it's a good practice to do so, that's a judgment call best left to the operator of the vessel. "_

I'm in complete agreement with you about turning it off when on a mooring or at a dock especially in crowded harbors. But, personally I tend to use my boat to get away from such places and will probably keep it on in many of the places where I tend to be the only boat anchored in the area.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

mbianka said:


> _"Voluntarily users of AIS are not required to have their AIS in continuous operations, but, are not prohibited from doing so. As to whether it's a good practice to do so, that's a judgment call best left to the operator of the vessel. "_
> 
> I'm in complete agreement with you about turning it off when on a mooring or at a dock especially in crowded harbors. But, personally I tend to use my boat to get away from such places and will probably keep it on in many of the places where I tend to be the only boat anchored in the area.


This is an interesting thought and I can see situations where leaving it on at anchor would make sense. Since I don't have AIS yet, this could change how I design the electronics setup. For example, I was planning on using SH's VHF with integral GPS to feed GPS data to the AIS. I don't want my VHF on in the middle of the night, so I might not wire it up this way. Conversely, if one DID wire it up this way, and always monitored VHF while underway, it would be a good way to have AIS on when underway and OFF when not...

MedSailor


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

In some parts of the world you may not want to be broadcasting your anchored position....


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Med-
Isn't there a flip side to every coin?
I would think "off when docked" since you're basically part of the shoreline then, of little to no concern to anyone else unless they're looking to borrow an open slip.
But. If AIS and DSC are thought of as "private landlines on boats" and a way to contact specific boats...who is to say there couldn't be a valid use of that, like reverse-911, perhaps to contact everyone at a particular dock and say "there's a fuel barge on fire drifting down on your position" at, yes, of course, 2AM. One broadcast to 100 boats all at once instead of trying to wake someone at the marina.

I don't say that's LIKELY, just a potential reason to have it. Then again I'd note that NOAA's "SAME" local warning capability has interrupted my sleep on various gadgets for over twenty years without telling me anything useful in that time. Fortunately the tornados have always been somewhere else, but they also do a great job telling inland users fifty miles away about "seek sheltered harbor, a storm line...." over in the next county. (sigh.)


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

MedSailor said:


> This is an interesting thought and I can see situations where leaving it on at anchor would make sense. Since I don't have AIS yet, this could change how I design the electronics setup. For example, I was planning on using SH's VHF with integral GPS to feed GPS data to the AIS. I don't want my VHF on in the middle of the night, so I might not wire it up this way. Conversely, if one DID wire it up this way, and always monitored VHF while underway, it would be a good way to have AIS on when underway and OFF when not...
> 
> MedSailor


I'm a big believer in not having too many eggs in one basket on board. My AIS is a stand alone transponder unit which has it's own GPS antenna and it's own AIS antenna. It operates independently from the other electronics on board. My display at the Helm is a Vesper 600 0r 650? display only unit. It has all the filters for the various water and modes I'm operating in i.e. Anchor, Harbor, Coastal etc... I can shut down the display and keep the AIS transmitting. I don't have to have any other electronics on like the VHF or Chartplotter on to keep feeding the AIS transponder with GPS information. IMO this gives one an additional safety factor. For example one could lose VHF or chartplotter operations but, still send out a distress signal (not that I hope to use ever use this feature  ) The AIS transponder unit will continuously send the message and GPS coordinates while I try and save the boat and does not rely on other units for for it's GPS data.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

mbianka said:


> That citation was from the U.S. Coast Guard Navigation site. AIS Frequently Asked Questions.


Well peachy. Just peachy. I think our initial postings caught the transition from the old regulations to the new ones. From reading current §146.64(d)(2) it is apparent to me that the intent of the clauses is focused on Class A transponders (see the requirements in the sub-paragraphs). Note that there are many voluntarily equipped vessels with Class A. Unfortunately that is not as clear as it should be.

I'll get an item on the USCG GMDSS Task Force on which I sit.



mbianka said:


> I'm in complete agreement with you about turning it off when on a mooring or at a dock especially in crowded harbors. But, personally I tend to use my boat to get away from such places and will probably keep it on in many of the places where I tend to be the only boat anchored in the area.


I think that there should be room for judgment and good seamanship. In crowded areas I think 'off' or 'silent' are appropriate; in areas less prone to frequent anchoring I think 'on' may well be appropriate. I feel strongly that we do NOT want regulation that tries to codify that.



hellosailor said:


> But. If AIS and DSC are thought of as "private landlines on boats" and a way to contact specific boats...who is to say there couldn't be a valid use of that, like reverse-911, perhaps to contact everyone at a particular dock and say "there's a fuel barge on fire drifting down on your position" at, yes, of course, 2AM. One broadcast to 100 boats all at once instead of trying to wake someone at the marina.


You can always call ALL SHIPS even for non-emergency routine messages. We leave our VHF on all the time, volume down so friends can beep us with DSC. We even have a group MMSI. An ALL SHIPS would walk up the VHF and I can assure you, us.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

SVAuspicious said:


> You can always call ALL SHIPS even for non-emergency routine messages. We leave our VHF on all the time, volume down so friends can beep us with DSC. We even have a group MMSI. An ALL SHIPS would walk up the VHF and I can assure you, us.


That's actually why I leave mine off at night. The USCG in my area transmits all maydays first with the DSC tones from their huge tower. It's not that I don't want to hear a mayday in the middle of the night, I'd love to hear it if it was close, I just don't want to hear the USCG's mayday re-broadcast of something that's 25NM away.

MedSailor


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