# Thorny Path



## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Can anyone tell me more about Thorny Path?

What is it?
Pros and Cons? Cautions?
How the deal with it from either direction?

TIA.


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

Thorny Path

see if this helps


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)




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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

There are 2 generally accepted routes to get to the BVI from the mainland of USA. There is "I-65" and the "Thorny Pathy." I-65 basically entails making your way into the teeth of the SE tradewinds until you hit the 65 longitude...or generally "until the butter melts" from various ports on the east coast of the USA. What some people try to do is take advantage of regular cold fronts that march across the SE USA and northern Bahamas that shift the winds to the West/Northwest and ride the front to the east. THe problem is that fronts will overtake you, and the winds will then shift to the NOrtheast at 15-20 knots. If you're caught in the Gulfstream with a North wind and a South current..you're going to get hammered. BIG STEEP marching elephant waves...so this is a risky tactic. Others just grit their teeth, power up their engine, carry lots of fuel and push into the wind and make easting. Once you reach 65 longitude, then you turn right and the Easterly trade winds make for a beam reach into the BVI. It is a long passage...on the order of 1000 miles or 10-15 days all offshore and well away from predictable weather windows. You really need hardy, fit crew and an extremely capable boat for that.

For captains/crew not willing or able to perform a long offshore passage, the Thorny Path is the best way to make it. You generally start by leaving Florida and making your way into the Bahamas and Turks & Caicos as a cruiser. The first major passage involves leaving the general safety of Bahamas and Turks and making your way to the Dominican Republic...ports of Luperon usually. This is a major passage and most people "chicken out" and return to the Bahamas...mostly to Georgetown, aka "Chicken Harbor". For those that choose to proceed from Luperon, the challenge is that the tradewinds are in your teeth. Furthermore, the winds off the island of Hispaniola get stronger and stronger as the day progresses, making for very harsh seas and more wind generally from the wrong direction. Some people choose to bash (and bash and bash) into these winds/waves to make their easterly to questionable ports/anchorages on the north shore of the Dominican Republic. However, what Bruce Van Sandt publicized with his book was that there is a peculiarity in the wind patterns in that at night, the winds off the Dominican mountains quiet down and the tradewinds lay down as well. This allows people that are nocturnal to make night passages in relative comfort. You are still motoring...or at best motor-sailing...but you are not doing it to weather and beating the hell out of your boat. Since a "gentleman never goes to weather"...he named his book a "Gentlemans Guide to Passages South." In theory, you can make your entire way from Luperon through the South Coast of Puerto Rico and eventually to the British Virgins via this method, including the very serious and dangerous "Mona Passage" between Hispaniola and Puerto Rico...where the entire Caribbean and the winds associated with it are forced through a gap about 50 miles wide. If you do this in a hurry and wait for reasonable weather...it will take you 1-2 months to do (versus 10 days for I-65).

Its a questionable tactic...as many have said that night sailing isn't safe and you still get beat to hell and back. But others swear by it. 

A few things. The Thorny Passage will beat up your boat probably as much as I-65. Things will break on this passage. Your boat better be up to snuff, as you'll be doing a serious passage through the Gulfstream from Florida to Bahamas (easy), then from the Turks to Luperon (not so easy), then the Mona Passage (brutal). Dont take this as "easier" than I-65. Its just less offshore stuff and there are places to turn tail and run to....but they too are questionable. In a north wind, hispaniola is one big lee shore. In a south wind, the south coast of Puerto Rico...another lee shore.


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

Buy Bruce VanSant's book and read it cover to cover. If you follow his advice, particularly as regards researching the weather and waiting for weather windows, then you will get his results. 
If you decide to experiment, then you will get what you get.


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

Nightowl and FSMike have it right...

I have done the trip three times from South Florida and plan a 4th in April. The Thorny Path, done twice in delivery mode, was brutal, especially going along the north shore of Hispaniola. This route requires following Van Sant's advice and a couple of months to be a civilized trip.

The offshore route was benign and we picked up the trades and turned south at 67W. This route requires lots of fuel (I carry enough for half the distance) and the willingness to sail 'best course to windward' to get the easting even if that means aiming for Bermuda. A serious problem with this route is that if the weather turns bad it is hard to bail out back to the Bahamas as the Bahamas become a very dangerous lee shore in north easterly gales...some of the entries like the ones into the Abacos become lethal. You need a strong boat and crew and the willingness to spend a few days hove to in an Atlantic gale!

http://www.wavetrain.net/news-a-views/177-caribbean-1500-rally-a-death-in-the-bahamas

Phil


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

From south Florida to the BVI, and leaving out politics, did saiboats ever follow the south side of Cuba to get to the BVIs? The waters near shore seem calm and there are a number of ports along the way.


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## flandria (Jul 31, 2012)

Gee, going to the Caribbean ain't so easy after all. I did meet a fellow sailor some years ago up here on Lake Ontaria who did the "I-65" on a fairly substantial steel ketch. Either way, this seems to explain why the folks doing deliveries manage to get customers and make a living... Or, is the average sailor just not up to this kind of weather/sea/endurance/risk...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

While prep and crew requirements are different, I think if you're going to the Caribbean, it makes as much sense to just point go. Get on the other side of the Gulf Steam as soon as practical. Offshore for two weeks, plenty of spare fuel lashed to the decks and pick as good a weather window as possible.

The average trip from RI to BVI is 12-14 days. I know its been done in 9, but stories from that trip did not sound relaxing. Sailed through 50+ knots for three days.


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

Going south of Cuba is not really any easier, you have to get through the Yucatan Straits which if part of the Gulf Stream and flows 2-3 knots to the north. You need to be in Cuban waters to avoid the current.

Going through the Windward passage and then east might be a little easier than going north of Hispaniola but I have not done this route. 

We were in Cozumel and decided it was easier to ride the trades than bash to windward and sailed north to Miami and then east out to 67W which appears to be the harder way but was so benign we only broke $9 of equipment...one shackle.

The shortest route is not necessarily the easiest when going into wind and tide.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I think there is some confusion here. The idea of I65 is that you make your easting well north of the trades so you do not have to bash into them. If the butter melts before you turn right you have allowed yourself to get too far south. The most common point of departure is the Chesapeake since it is not too far north - note that you are doing this trip in early November when (hopefully) the hurricanes are done and when insurance coverage allows it. Also the Gulf Stream is not too far offshore so you can leave with a good forecast for crossing the stream. The route will typically take you quite close to Bermuda but the prevailing wisdom is not to stop if you have good conditions since they will change and you may be stuck in Bermuda for awhile, which is not the worst thing in the world except your early November passage may become an early December one. It is 1500 miles, hence the Caribbean 1500, so it is far from a trivial undertaking. When we did it, we had nine days of reaching and broad reaching with constant winds of 25 to 35 knots because the weather was dominated by a massive cold front that eventually extended from Greenland to Cuba. We had no normal tradewind conditions. The last three days were south winds around 10 knots. Other years people get virtually no wind and have fuel issues, so you can get anything at all. If you go this way make sure that you and your boat are ready for it. We have sailed from the New York to Cape Town and the two toughest passages were this one and from Mauritius to South Africa.

Haven't done the Thorny Path but from talking to people who have done it, it is not too bad so long as you follow two rules: a) van Sant's book is the bible, follow his advice exactly and b) be very patient (part of a)), if you try to rush it, the trip becomes miserable. Also have a look at the free cruising guides produced by Frank Virgintino. He is a proponent of going along the south shores of Hispaniola and Puerto Rico. Makes considerable sense since you are in the lee of the islands so you don't get the big winter swells from the North Atlantic. Also, there are more, nicer places to stop on the southern shore of the Dominican than on the north, plus one in Haiti. Virgintino's stuff can be found here:
Free Cruising Guides » Frank Virgintino

Someone mentioned the south coast of Cuba. That would make little sense if you were coming from the Atlantic Coast since you would to go so far west to get there. Might work if you were coming from Texas for example. When all the travel bans go and the Cubans get over their love of bureaucracy, Cuba will become a great destination. Final point, coming back from the Eastern Caribbean is not thorny at all. It is downwind.


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

Chris Parker at the Caribbean Weather Center Marine Weather Center - Bahamas & Caribbean Marine Weather Services is a good source of weather informaton regarding the Thorny Path. If you want to talk to him you need a SSB radio and you need to subscribe to his service. If you just want to listen you don't have to pay and there are usually enough boats doing what you are doing that you can figure things out by listening to the conversations.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

night0wl said:


> There are 2 generally accepted routes to get to the BVI from the mainland of USA. There is "I-65" and the "Thorny Pathy." .......


Awesome summary, Nightowl.. thanks for that!



billyruffn said:


> Chris Parker at the Caribbean Weather Center Marine Weather Center - Bahamas & Caribbean Marine Weather Services is a good source of weather informaton regarding the Thorny Path. If you want to talk to him you need a SSB radio and you need to subscribe to his service. If you just want to listen you don't have to pay and there are usually enough boats doing what you are doing that you can figure things out by listening to the conversations.


Simply listening to Chris was a daily ritual on our Caribbean jaunts...


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Awesome write ups and comment!!! Thanks night0wl, Bruce and all others. 

We have not much choice since the boat is in FLL, but take taking Thorny path to the virgins. Crews are hardy, but not sure about the boat. I was told that the boat has every thing under the sun in safety equipment and electronics. But how sound the boat is unknown. 

I am thinking about Mona passage, but not sure how the current works there.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Again get van Sants book and read what he says, Mona passage currents are not reliable or predictable.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

I ordered the book yesterday. But it looks like we are taking to I65 route this time. We will see and remain flexible pending on the weather, soundness of the vessel and crews.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

You know, the first thing you need to figure out, are you dealing with true thorns?!?!? or Prickles? or Spines? Roses actually have prickles, Barberry's have thorns, cacti have spines.....

So once you figure out which one you have, you can figure out if you are really truthfully on the thorny route. It might really be the spiny or prickly route..........

Enough of my botany/horticultural back ground you say?!?!?!?

Enjoy the trip!

marty


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## blowinstink (Sep 3, 2007)

rockDAWG said:


> I ordered the book yesterday. But it looks like we are taking to I65 route this time. We will see and remain flexible pending on the weather, soundness of the vessel and crews.


You said the boat is in Florida and you say you are planning to take "I-65".

How does that work???


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

So, is there an alternate path for leaving Key West and heading to Cancun area for landfall, then going south on the coast ?


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

chucklesR said:


> So, is there an alternate path for leaving Key West and heading to Cancun area for landfall, then going south on the coast ?


This is NOT a good way to get to the Eastern Caribbean, which is where those following the Thorny Path generally want to go.


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## sony2000 (Jan 30, 2013)

Using the south coast of Cuba to go to the Caribbean is only a option for US registered boats, when they have a non national on board. For he or she, is the only one allowed to spend money for provisioning purposes, repairs, and etc., while in anyone of the ports along the south coast.
This may be a touchy subject, but I always travel with alternatives.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

Yet another interesting thread. Just ordered the Van Sant book. We will be making that passage in the next 4-5 years. Lots of time to plan.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

blowinstink said:


> > Originally Posted by rockDAWG
> > I ordered the book yesterday. But it looks like we are taking to I65 route this time. We will see and remain flexible pending on the weather, soundness of the vessel and crews.
> 
> 
> ...


Probably not very well, in most cases&#8230;

The best one could reasonably hope for, is a strategy mentioned by Don Street from south Florida&#8230;

Cross the Stream to West End or Lucaya, then wait for the arrival of a cold front&#8230; Sail down the NE Providence Channel, and ride the NW through NE progression as far east as you can&#8230; If you're lucky, you might be able to lay Puerto Rico by the time you're into the area of established trade winds, again&#8230;

I employed that strategy once sailing my own boat from Lauderdale to Harbour Island, Eleuthera... Rode the SW breeze in advance of the front across the Stream, the front arriving just as predicted just after passing Great Isaac... It was a strong front, however, and the ride that night down the NW Providence Channel was pretty boisterous... Still blew hard for two days after arriving at Harbour Island late the following afternoon, enough that I had to anchor up in the lee of the west side of the harbor for another day after arrival... Had I been attempting to go further east, that system would have carried me out pretty far - and would have resulted in a quick passage, but a rather rough and wet one...

I'm guessing the boat the OP is talking about, is the Out Island 41 he was considering delivering from Morehead City earlier in the winter&#8230; Definitely not my first choice, in the type of boat I'd want to have to beat from S. Florida out to the Eastern Caribbean&#8230; Using Steet's route, probably the best he can hope for is maybe being able to fetch Luperon or Ocean World...(grin)



billyruffn said:


> > Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
> > So, is there an alternate path for leaving Key West and heading to Cancun area for landfall, then going south on the coast ?
> 
> 
> This is NOT a good way to get to the Eastern Caribbean, which is where those following the Thorny Path generally want to go.


On the other hand, if you'd prefer to cross the Stream in direct opposition to it, rather than perpendicular, bypass one of the Western Hemisphere's most beautiful cruising grounds, add perhaps 30% more distance to the amount of open water beating into the trades you'll have to do, and perhaps bring Haiti into play as a possible port of call/bailout point, well&#8230; then such a route could be a wonderful alternative&#8230; (grin)


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Thanks Jon, I will think hard on your words for this trip. The weather predicts very light easterly wind from Sunday to Wednesday. We are thinking motor or motorsail all the way. Hopeful get to Virgins or PR.

What precautionary should I take if the wind starts blowing from the N or NE when we are east of "72 W"? I think it will good for us as long as I stay far from Lee shore. 

Your comments is appreciated.


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

Keep sailing east on the northerlies, if you go south too early you get into the current running north and west.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

My wife found this lighthearted blog of a sailboat that just arrived in Puerto Rico via the Thorny Path. Not a huge amount of technical detail but a very enjoyable read. They seemed to do it exactly right IMHO. Told the admiral to study up on their approach. Van Sant book arrives today.

The crossing entries starts on their blog on January 16th.

Forget the T-Shirt | Banyan


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

I do appreciate how they made great fun of a challenging passage. Particularly note that there was not a big rush for an aggressive passage. Very patient, which was something brought up earlier in the thread. They just waited for their weather windows and had fun while waiting it out. That would be the style that the admiral and I would do. Although the Bahamas likely won't work out for us due to our draft.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

kellysails said:


> I do appreciate how they made great fun of a challenging passage. Particularly note that there was not a big rush for an aggressive passage. Very patient, which was something brought up earlier in the thread. They just waited for their weather windows and had fun while waiting it out. That would be the style that the admiral and I would do. Although the Bahamas likely won't work out for us due to our draft.


This is the attitude you need to have for cruising. You can call them delays or you can call them opportunities. We got stuck in Durban waiting for a window. The yacht club is in downtown Durban and not the nicest spot in the world, but still interesting - at least in day time.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

Received Van Sant's book a few days ago, and I can't put it down. Now that's how to take the thorns out of the thorny path. A great read. And I see that while a seven foot draft is not optimal in the Bahamas, it is doable. 

I do wonder how to get down below 12 degrees latitude by June 1 using his methodology. It would be a fairly rapid cruise through the Caribbean to make it. I suppose one could start cruising the Caribbean in detail the following season. That makes sense I guess.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

We went the I65 route so the time constraints were different, but we decided to go south quickly with only brief stops on the way to Grenada. We took our time coming north.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Amazing thread...one of my all-time favorites here on SailNet. The shared information in this thread is what I love about the cruising community. BTW - This should be a "Thorny Path" sticky.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

great thread . Very useful. Thanks to all


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## flyingriki (Sep 27, 2012)

Something I didn't see in this thread:

https://www.tor.cc/articles/flcarib.htm

Explains the I65 thing pretty well.


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