# know it all ???



## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

I had a guy today proclaim that " Very few know as much as I do about sailing." Caused me ask about his experience . He told me he had been sailing in the Chesapeake since he was a child . (he looked maybe 40 to me) Caused me to ask him where else he had ever sailed to . " Just the Chesapeake." I told him I was no sage (& I truly am not) , but I sailed in the Bering Sea , the Pacific , the Gulf of Mexico , the North Atlantic , & the Chesapeake & my guess was that in all probability a lot of people might know more about sailing then you. He immediately replied that if you can sail in the Chesapeake you can sail anywhere . Any notions among sailnetters about that ?


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Technically he is probably correct. Since a vast majority of the population know nothing about sailing, even if he knew a little bit about it then he would know more than most and therefore very few know as much as him.
Now, had he of said "very few sailors know as much as I do about sailing" then that would have been something else.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

A year or so ago in Georgetown I was bragging about my recent trans-Atlantic crossing and this fellow said he too had crossed the Atlantic........... From Florida to the Bahamas.

I am sure if your friend has circumnavigated Chesapeake Bay he has, indeed, done the world.


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

Interesting perspective Mark....lol


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

Note: not a friend....just a guy I met in the marina


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## arf145 (Jul 25, 2007)

I would be suspicious of anyone who made a statement like that. Sounds like he has lost sight of what he doesn't know.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

It's all so relative; 40 years of a weekend or two a month and a two week vacation yearly, or a professional who operates 7 days a week in the season then sails his/her own boat in the Caribbean the rest of the year, for ten years.
I'll not get into the argument about the Chesapeake being a particularly difficult place to sail or not; I'm sure in 40 years of sailing, this person has experienced a difficult day or two. Perhaps he could tell us of some of his more harrowing experiences on the thread: "rough weather".


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

kjango said:


> Note: not a friend....just a guy I met in the marina


You should ask him to join Sailnet, no doubt there is plenty we could all learn from a sailor of such vast experience....


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Many of the guests aboard the threehoursail have been around the Horn (bovine, that is)on the deck of the Thane Their boasting rights just as valid as that of your acquaintance.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

JonEisberg said:


> You should ask him to join Sailnet, no doubt there is plenty we could all learn from a sailor of such vast experience....


I think he is already here, and using multiple screen names.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

kjango said:


> Note: not a friend....just a guy I met in the marina


Thats lucky. Could you imagine what it would be like to have a best friend who sprouted that sort of crap?


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

Anyone who feels the need to tell you how very much he knows, probably doesn't know very much at all.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

What I'm concerned about for myself is if I have 10 years of experience of one year of experience 10 times.
I suspect their may be a difference.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Everybody I've ever met who made a statement like that - about anything - was usually woefully short of knowledge.

The ones like that who actually DO know a lot are nearly always insufferable a$$holes or otherwise off kilter in some serious ways. The latest one I met was a steel boat cultist with a strong streak of survivalist about him. He also claimed to have *four* Ph.D's. Just to top it all off, he was German and personified all the most extreme stereotypes that can engender. Would have made a perfect S.S. officer 75 years ago.  The friend who brought him around felt the need to apologize profusely later but I told him that, far from being annoyed, I actually had trouble containing my laughter at the clowns nonsense.

In any case, if you hear that statement from someone, about anything, time to start looking around for the exits.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)




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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Did he have a big nose, red hair, big floppy shoes?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Very funny.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

British humour - the gold standard. :laugher

I knew a girl once, years ago, who's father was a *consulting* neurosurgeon - the guy the other brain surgeons asked questions of when it got too hard or complicated. 

I remember thinking that was just about as good or skilled as it was possible to be - I sure can't think of anything that could top it.


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

I encountered this guy during my favorite part of the day , barely dawn
early morning enjoying my coffee in peace & quiet . I suddenly had some place else to go & for once it worked . There apparently is a god & he's a kind & a merciful god sometimes .....lol


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

My father told me something long ago, and I told my children the same thing.
It is much better to have other people tell you how good/great/talented you are than for you to tell them how good you are. Them telling you means that you have impressed them somehow. You telling them.....means that you are probably the only person that is impressed!


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

Tenoch said:


> I think he is already here, and using multiple screen names.


I thought this was going to be a post about meeting [SN member name redacted]...

I am sure this fella posted in several of the threads I have been following this week...especially "Mutiny at Dawn."


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

I am much quicker to take advice from a sailor who says he "may know a little bit about ________" (but only if asked) than someone who leads off telling you about how much he knows before even telliing you anything.

And I believe the Gods of wind and ocean deal more kindly with the former than the latter, humility goes down with them sweeter than braggadocio. We are the Gods' servants out there.

Anyone who seems not to grasp this relationship might indeed do better to stay inside Chesepeake Bay, if that's where he already is....


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## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

Never ever argue with a fool. Others might think that he is similarly engaged.

And, since he has never navigated in the Arctic where a compass is useless,
he is full of that old brown stuff.
Dick


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

nolatom said:


> I am much quicker to take advice from a sailor who says he "may know a little bit about ________" (but only if asked) than someone who leads off telling you about how much he knows before even telliing you anything.
> 
> And I believe the Gods of wind and ocean deal more kindly with the former than the latter, humility goes down with them sweeter than braggadocio. We are the Gods' servants out there.
> 
> *Anyone who seems not to grasp this relationship might indeed do better to stay inside Chesepeake Bay, if that's where he already is....*


In fairness, one has to acknowledge the possibility that this guy may, indeed, know a great deal more about sailing than most...

_*...on Chesapeake Bay*_, that is...

That's where he puts his foot in it, with the ridiculous notion that "If you can sail the Chesapeake, you can sail anywhere..."

Now, such a claim might have some legitimacy about certain sailing grounds in the US... Alaska, no doubt... Maine, perhaps, Lake Superior, even San Francisco Bay... But an estuary with sailing conditions as typically benign and forgiving as Chesapeake Bay, sorry, that ain't one of them... despite what anyone says about the scary thunderstorms that can develop on a sultry summer afternoon... 

For someone to make such an assertion, they're broadcasting Loud & Clear how little appreciation they have for what they may not know, or have not experienced... Never once having felt the rise of an ocean swell, or sailed out of sight of land, or further than a couple of hours away from a safe haven, never once having run an inlet from the sea, or a pass into a Pacific atoll, never ever having read the water based upon it's color, or attempted to distinguish the shadow of a cloud from a coral head, nor experienced a katabatic blow-me-down inside a fjord.... Damn, the list is virtually ENDLESS of the sort of stuff this clown doesn't know... 

You're absolutely right, he's best off staying in his own little world, with a nice soft, forgiving bottom...


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## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> ... But an estuary with sailing conditions as typically benign and forgiving as Chesapeake Bay, sorry, that ain't one of them...
> 
> You're absolutely right, he's best off staying in his own little world, with a nice soft, forgiving bottom...


Yep.

At least he had the decency to open his mouth and remove any doubt there might have been about his true competencies!


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## RainDog (Jun 9, 2009)

One good thing about compulsively reading sailing books..... Even if I circumnavigate 5 times, round the three capes in winter, brave force 10 storms, and never see land for 40 years, I will still be a chump compared to people who, in an open 60, "can go downwind in 30 knots of wind, surfing on 20-ft. seas, carrying a spinnaker and full mainsail. And in those conditions they'll jibe the boat, with the spinnaker--at night, in the dark, alone!" (_Godforsaken Sea_)

Reading stuff like that will keep one humble.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

SloopJonB said:


> British humour - the gold standard. :laugher
> 
> I knew a girl once, years ago, who's father was a *consulting* neurosurgeon - the guy the other brain surgeons asked questions of when it got too hard or complicated.
> 
> I remember thinking that was just about as good or skilled as it was possible to be - I sure can't think of anything that could top it.


So you reckon this guy should be a "consulting sailor"? 

I guess if you know how to tack, gybe, trim for speed, dock your boat and so on then he could be correct. Maybe he's correct when he says nobody knows more than him because in truth, fundamentally there isn't that much to sailing.

For example, I can gybe my boat - could I gybe an AC72 at 45 knots? Hell no, but I still can gybe. So mark that off the list. Now can I tack? Yep, mark that off. Get it?


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## captflood (Jan 1, 2011)

GREETINGS EARTHLINGS; We all need to have a beer or five with this guy. He must be a great information carrier . EEEE after one or more beers the stories start the best beeing I can remember the time I crossed Cape Horne on a three mastterd Scrubbing brush EEEE when I was a lad we had it Tuff (paradie off the secret policemans ball Monty pyphon flrying circus) AS ALWAYS GO SAFE


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

Everyone knows that if one stays in a Holiday Inn Express, magical powers enable them to do nearly anything. There is a Holiday Inn Express on the eastern side of the bay just off Route 50 for those interested in acquiring an abundance of worldly skills.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

kjango said:


> I had a guy today proclaim that " Very few know as much as I do about sailing." Caused me ask about his experience . He told me he had been sailing in the Chesapeake since he was a child . (he looked maybe 40 to me) Caused me to ask him where else he had ever sailed to . " Just the Chesapeake." I told him I was no sage (& I truly am not) , but I sailed in the Bering Sea , the Pacific , the Gulf of Mexico , the North Atlantic , & the Chesapeake & my guess was that in all probability a lot of people might know more about sailing then you. He immediately replied that if you can sail in the Chesapeake you can sail anywhere . Any notions among sailnetters about that ?


He may very well be the best sailor in the world. But, I lived on, and sailed in, the Chesapeake for six years and while it's a nice place to sail, I wouldn't call it the best place to get a lot of experience. With mostly mud bottoms, lots of deep water, lots of good anchorages, and mostly moderate winds, it's probably one of the more forgiving places I have sailed.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Totally agree. There are lessons to be learned from sailing the Chesapeake. It's a great place.to keep a boat and one of the main reasons I decided to move to this area 10 years ago.

To think this area gives you all the experiences you can get is like reading a book through Smackdaddys eye glasses.


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

kjango said:


> I had a guy today proclaim that " Very few know as much as I do about sailing." Caused me ask about his experience . He told me he had been sailing in the Chesapeake since he was a child . (he looked maybe 40 to me) Caused me to ask him where else he had ever sailed to . " Just the Chesapeake." I told him I was no sage (& I truly am not) , but I sailed in the Bering Sea , the Pacific , the Gulf of Mexico , the North Atlantic , & the Chesapeake & my guess was that in all probability a lot of people might know more about sailing then you. He immediately replied that if you can sail in the Chesapeake you can sail anywhere . Any notions among sailnetters about that ?


Better to find humility before humility finds you.


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## cutterdad (Apr 10, 2013)

Sounds like he has given you a good yardstick to measure anything else he might say to you.


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## Uricanejack (Nov 17, 2012)

If your friend can sail a boat well in the Chesapeake Bay. Technically he probably can sail a boat anywhere. 
I might decline an offer to go with him.
By the way I’ve crossed the Atlantic by bridge on the way to the pub from one of my favourite anchorages.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Gotta love the irony from many of the posters on their opinions on "know-it-alls".


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## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

"I have been on the water since age 10" and still don't know half as much as he must then...:laugher

Heck...I have already made 2 mistakes this year that could have really ended badly (knocking on wood).

My lesson...never get too comfortable or confident


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## THEFRENCHA (Jan 26, 2003)

Like in the advertising This guy probably had a good night sleep at the Holiday Inn


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

cutterdad said:


> Sounds like he has given you a good yardstick to measure anything else he might say to you.


I like this, succinct. I'm sure Neptune is taking notes on this guy...

EDIT: And by his own statement, I assume that he's now stopped learning, since he already knows it all? Nothing new the ocean can teach him?


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

Sure, he can sail a boat but can he fix a boat. In my experience, keeping the boat seaworthy is half the battle.

After 40+ years of sailing, I was thinking the other day while sailing how I am getting better at trimming the headsail on a broad reach. In all fairness I am no gentleman and do prefer to sail upwind

Would love to sit and have a beer with this guy. Highly entertaining I am sure.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

PBzeer said:


> Gotta love the irony from *many of the posters* on their opinions on "know-it-alls".


Aw, come on now... _*MANY*_ of the posters who responded? Seriously?

Looking through the names of those posting to this thread, only one jumps out as one likely to be widely regarded as a "know-it-all"...

That would be yours truly, of course


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

PBzeer said:


> Gotta love the irony from many of the posters on their opinions on "know-it-alls".


Irony? Are you saying that a person who doesn't believe anyone knows it all, is the real know it all for saying that?

Because, there are such people who really do know it all? Name one. Or are you saying that you know it all and anyone who says no one can know it all, is an ironic know it all?

Just trying for some clarification here.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I think collectively we all know a lot. That's the beauty. I read and learn WAY more than I post and opine. If I happen to know something about a particular area, tactic, or boat. Or I have an opinion on something somebody else did or said, I'll post something. But mostly I soak up all the knowledge being thrown around here. SN has inspired me to take better care of my boat, to finish it's restoration and sail south sooner than I would have, and given me a great forum to take the pi$$ out racers when I feel like it. I know what I know and I know what I don't.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Wow and here I hought your cinicism was reserved only for the politics/religion threads


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

chef2sail said:


> Wow and here I hought your cinicism was reserved only for the politics/religion threads


No, mostly race threads. What's with all the rules in racing any way's? I 
get bored real quick reading the rule argument threads. Should not there be but one rule? 
rule #1 Sail over there faster than the other guy.

I think cynicism is spelled with a Y and thought with a T. 
That's my criticism.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

"What's with all the rules in racing any way's?"
Wow! You must do a lot of racing. I'm sure you know all about it. Just not the part about why there are rules.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

bobperry said:


> "What's with all the rules in racing any way's?"
> Wow! You must do a lot of racing. I'm sure you know all about it. Just not the part about why there are rules.


I do a lot of sailing, deliveries and passage making. The only things I've ever raced were the tide, the sun, and the weather, and the only rule's I live by are, do your best to get there first and do it safely. As for playing with boats like they were toy's with a bunch of ****s who think of a sailing as a sport, **** 'em. I love to hate those *****.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Capt.aaron said:


> I do a lot of sailing, deliveries and passage making. The only things I've ever raced were the tide, the sun, and the weather, and the only rule's I live by are do your best to get there first and do it safely. As for playing with boats like they were toy's with a bunch of ***** who think of a sailing as a sport, **** 'em. I love to hate those *****.


That being said BOB, I have nothing but respect for you and the boats you've drawn. I've sailed all over the Eastern Seaboard, Bahamas, South America, the East, West and Central Caribbean on a 1965 Soverel 28 with no engine single handed, for over 20 years and on the same boat with Grand Pa through the 70's. If it were not for some of the innovative designers and the sea worthy but tender racer cruisers that came from that era, I would not have been as successful as I have on my sailing adventures. But The average racer dude and the culture that evolves around the sport can suck it.  Yeah I said that.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I've done a lot of racing so I would be one of those "*****". You sound extremely judgemental. I know a lot of quality guys and world class sailors who race hard and also cruise. A lot of them are very good friends. They just like sailing and the PNW is the place if you want to race and cruise. None of my friends call themselves "Captain" and we don;t call each other "*****". Not all them time anyway.

You sound angry and defensive. I'm pretty sure you would not like me and my sailing friends.

PS:
I think this is the correct thread for you.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

I've raced, delivered boats, coached sailing teams, been on college sailing teams, raced some more, cruised some more, delivered some more, dived off dive boats, been night-watch captain on offshore dive boats, been in the Coast Guard and investigated marine casualties, but I know I still have a lot to learn. 

Arrogance or overconfidence, or self-aggrandizement, doesn't generally play well with with the Sea and Weather Gods, in my reckoning. I am their humble servant. I try to like people since it's much less effort than hating them.

And (quoting the noted maritime expert Annie Hall here), "lah-de-dah---lah-de-dah".,.....


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Maybe we can save the vitriol and character assassination for more worthy targets, like SeaRay owners, or JetSki pilots. Or anchor manufacturers.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Agree with bljones. Please be more creative with your language. Or less creative. Anyway, please watch the language.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

bljones said:


> Maybe we can save the vitriol and character assassination for more worthy targets, like SeaRay owners, or JetSki pilots. Or anchor manufacturers.


Oh those guy's can double suck it.
Hey Bob, you've raced a lot so you know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not angry or aggressive. Take a look at the the dudes who blew threw those Opti's in Italy last month. That's aggressive. Typical racer dudes. And some racer dudes came to their defense. "It's not their fault the the course intertwined." Come to key West and interview any server, bar tender, and ask them to recite the litany of transgressions they have had to endure during race week by, these " quality guy's" that descend on our town each year. My wife alone can talk for an hour non stop back to back story's of dip sh!t W.A.F.I's, as we call them. ( wind assisted F'n idiots) that she has had to wait on. I'm not angry, I just think the culture and attitude of the average racer guy sucks. If that makes me an a$$hole so be it. At least I'm an A$$hole on purpose and am aware of it. Most of these guy's think they are 'Quality dudes." As I said earlier, I love to hate those dudes. I'm actually happy about it. It in no way makes me a Know it all, just a sailor who thinks racers can suck it.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

DRFerron said:


> Agree with bljones. Please be more creative with your language. Or less creative. Anyway, please watch the language.


What ever.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I have made an effort to clean up my own language here. It takes little effort. I just have to remember my dear old Dad telling me about "inadequate vocabularies". Dad never swore. If my Dad didn't swear and he had survived New Guinea in WWII I guess I can stop swearing too. Spike never swore. He'd say, "Fudge!" But I'm no Spike so I will continue to swear. But not here.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

You're right .Bob. I never heard Spike swear on board the Thane. But then we never talked about racers , either .


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Len:
How did you know Spike?


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

There is a reason " Cuss'n Like a sailor" is a term. But I shall do my best to refrain as well. I thought dollar signs an acronyms was a creative way to swear. Maybe throw in a number here and there. Ya'll should sit at a table for dinner on tug boat, now that is some creative language. 'Speacially when we are talking about the racers in Miami Harbor that cut off our tow and made us go hard reverse and blow the horn.


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## jak3b (Apr 24, 2011)

I always found racers to be like any other group.99% of them are cool people 1% a-holes. Ive met some live aboarders Id like to strap in there bunks and open the seacocks on.I'd do it with with no remorse.In the North east where I grew up it was useally alot of fun being at the events.Lots of them are blue bloods and can be snotty but so what.If your that thin skinned your going to wind up hating everyone.Ive realised as I go along in life Id much rather hang out with well to do people any way.They eat better.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

During the 1'st? wooden boat in Port Townsend. Spike hung out on Thane. I remember he really liked fried salmon roe while we preferred the steaks. We'd brought a deck load of boat lumber down for someone in PT. so met a lot of characters in Point Hudson that year.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Capt.aaron said:


> No, mostly race threads. What's with all the rules in racing any way's? I
> get bored real quick reading the rule argument threads. Should not there be but one rule?
> rule #1 Sail over there faster than the other guy.
> 
> ...


So I cant spell....and my IPad doesn't always autocorrect, you obviously knew what I meant Good spelling doesn't help me learn sailing

I for sure am not an know it all about spelling


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I still don't understand why a race can't just be, raise sail, sail over there, maybe even back here, and the dude that does is first wins. Pretty simple. I know and have friend's that race, we call each other ( excuse my language) pr!ck's or what have you. The Biggest jerk racer sailors I know are well aware they are jerks. It's the ones that haven't a clue that I love to hate. And there is no way only 1 % of them suck A$$...oops there I go again cuss'n like a ...


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## Grunthrie (May 2, 2013)

PBzeer said:


> Gotta love the irony from many of the posters on their opinions on "know-it-alls".


Zing. Especially if one has recently read the flame wars over on the Mutiny at Dawn thread.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The worst breed of racers are the 20 somethings that are crewing on some wealthy owner's coastal racer, who all wear matching foulies and shirts, provided by said owner, and return to the dock like they've conquered Europe. Not a one could afford the jib sheet they tended.

They always fail to notice they look no different than an indentured harem. Even prettier in many cases. Marionettes to serve at the pleasure of the owner, who can and does toss them aside if they don't perform. They are powerless and only provide value by knowing a skill that was reserved for the peasant class in sailing history..... crew.

I wonder where the arrogant pride comes from? Must be denial.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Minn:
Sounds to me like you have never been a member of a skilled racing crew. You might see it differently if you had been. It is very satisfying for some of us to work together as a team and make a boat perform to it's ultimate potential. Some of us even call it "fun".

You probably wouldn't like rowers either. After all galley slaves were such a low level of humanity.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Len:
I'm pretty sure that's not my Spike. Maybe it was Spike Africa. I think he lives in PT. But he would be considerably older than my Spike. My Spike was 30 when he died, was 6'3" and looked like this.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

Personally, IMO, racers don't have the "assholes in sailboats" market cornered. 

I was reading a cruising story the other day. The story was of a boat going from Maryland to Bermuda, staying over for a couple weeks and then sailing back to Maryland. The story was interesting until the crew got to Bermuda. Then the author, who owned the boat, and skippered it from the east coast started to show some snobbish attitudes towards the tourist from cruise ships and at the resorts. I wanted to reach through the computer and haul him up, "Yoh, you peckish moron, you to are a tourist!" He then went on to describe those looking at his boat longingly as she sat moored, as beer bellied dreamers without a clue. I then realized I had wasted 20 minutes of my life and moved on. But to the point, Aholes who sail come in all sizes and reach throughout the sailing world.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

We need to resurrect Nancy Reagan's literacy campaign -

"Just spell No!"


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

The not liking racers reminds me of the Harley riders not liking the Honda riders. It just gets ridiculous.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

My apologies ,Bob, you're entirely correct. Goes to show how posting on SN with incomplete information can lead to misunderstandings.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

TJC45 said:


> The not liking racers reminds me of the Harley riders not liking the Honda riders. It just gets ridiculous.


I don't generally like racers because of a life time living around them and witnessing how they behave, it actually has nothing to do with the racing it self.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> The worst breed of racers are the 20 somethings that are crewing on some wealthy owner's coastal racer.......





bobperry said:


> Minn:
> Sounds to me like you have never been a member of a skilled racing crew...


Incorrect assumption, although, most have been comprised of those that both race and cruise. However, I think you missed the specificity of my post. It's the snotty young Newport know-it-all breed that are pretty tough to take. They are quite full of themselves and don't seem to recognize that they are just fodder to amuse the boat's owner. Ironic.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I do my best not to generalize about people. I just take them one at a time and evaluate each one as an individual.

I'm probably weird that way.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I've seen the boat owners act pretty horrible on a regular basis as well. I think they deserve each other. I'll make point to record racer behavior this year at race week. As a live a board kid in key largo, we would just watch in horror the way the owners and crews would treat our local marina employees and wait staff. And today 30 years later, I still shake my head in disbelief when my wife and her friends recite the antics of the owners and their crews that they endure during race week. As well as watching them walk around town and act fools. Also the local store owners and repair guy's can all tell their share of not so funny stories of Racers being rude and acting entitled. No, mine and the many others I know have a long slow and nurtured dis like of that crowd from decades of watching them, dealing with them. They don't know there assholes, they think they are quality guy's. They think they are charming. That their rude behavior is humorous. I love to hate them as I said, I'm actually looking forward to race week this year so I can walk around and tell 'em to suck it every time I see 'em acting out of line.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

bobperry said:


> I do my best not to generalize about people. I just take them one at a time and evaluate each one as an individual.
> 
> I'm probably weird that way.


Good policy. I had one of the aforementioned snots, insult my wife as we pulled into adjacent slips. He was pretty proud of his day and criticized her as having it pretty cushy. Longer story. I may never get over it.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

bobperry said:


> I do my best not to generalize about people. I just take them one at a time and evaluate each one as an individual.
> 
> I'm probably weird that way.


That's how we deal with 'em down here in Key West. Too bad 8 out of 10 that we evaluate is a dick.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Allow me to poke the dog with a stick:


"so I can walk around and tell 'em to suck it every time I see 'em acting out of line. "

That would be "out of line" by your criteria I would guess. Right? So you appointed yourself the "behaviour police"? Lovely. I bet you really look forward to it.

"Too bad 8 out of 10 that we evaluate is a dick. "
There you go again. I think it's pretty fortunate for me that you and I are in opposite corners of the country.


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## Plumbean (Dec 17, 2009)

bobperry said:


> I do my best not to generalize about people. I just take them one at a time and evaluate each one as an individual.
> 
> I'm probably WISE that way.


Fixed it for you


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

bobperry said:


> Allow me to poke the dog with a stick:
> 
> ...


No. No poking. No. No. No.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Yeah, when I act out of line and some one say's "hey you are out of line" i say " You know your right" and apologize. When I see these dudes treating a local waitress or bar tender wrong, yes indeed, I tell 'em to watch it. A lot of times the server has to endure to keep their job as where I have the freedom to speak up. I have nothing but respect for people who speak up when they see some thing out of line. It's easy pick'ns down here during race week, every place you go will have a room full of racer punks acting like punks with disgusted waitresses shaking their head. Hit any after work waitress bar in Key West and just sit back and listen to how their day went. I'm not making this **** up. It's common knowledge down here. If you think I like putting douche ass snotty nose racer punks in their place, you should see how I deal with grumpy old men, I have absolutely no tolerance for those guy's.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I thought about this a bit and I know there are regattas where the boats and crew can tgake over docks and a group "mentality" sets in and it usually involves rowdy and rude behaviour, generally after the race and a few beers when relaxing from a hard day's racing. I think I have been a part of that from time to time.

I apologize for my behaviour. I don't remember what it was but I'm sorry anyway. And I'm sorry that Jack laughed at your boat.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

Capt.aaron said:


> I still don't understand why a race can't just be, raise sail, sail over there, maybe even back here, and the dude that does is first wins. Pretty simple. I know and have friend's that race, we call each other ( excuse my language) pr!ck's or what have you. The Biggest jerk racer sailors I know are well aware they are jerks. It's the ones that haven't a clue that I love to hate. And there is no way only 1 % of them suck A$$...oops there I go again cuss'n like a ...


Racing can be informal. WE use to have distance races that were pretty informal. Much like your race from here to there and back. Fun, but really something for the non race crowd among us.

Why are there rules for racing? Why are there rules for anything? because someone has figured out a way to game the system or gain unfair advantage. Under the rules, everyone is equal. The rules play no favorites. The rules present an order or process to be followed. They outline the game, and how to win.

It is not the rules of racing that are the problem. it is the egos of racing that are the problem.

Down in KW, as you mention your wife suffers for these egos. KW would attract the big egos. Remember, most of these guys, regardless of their station in life, are past their prime. They aren't young guys trying out for Top Gun school. And they never will be. So being the BSD at the annual regatta is as good as it's ever gonna get for them. And I agree, it's a big turnoff. Even to some of us fellow racers. I see them and think smacked ass.


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## jak3b (Apr 24, 2011)

Laugh at my boat I'll kill ya, Oh wait I dont have a boat.Come on fella's ya'll need to get out more,Racing sailors acting rude?.Try being in a bar with a drunk Scottish rugby team,Drunk ex Spetnaz Russian maniacs and a group of heavily armed Thai rangers.That was an interesting night.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Why are their rules? 
A big reason is so boats don't hit each other. Imagine 6 boats approaching the windward mark, leeward mark, jibing mark, finish line, all within a boat length of each other. As they jockey for a position of advantage in these complex situations you need rules to prevent boats bashing into each other.

It's always interesting when racing and you, on starboard tack, find a cruiser leisurely sailing through the fleet on port tack on an impending collision course with you. The obvious reaction is to yell, "Starboard tack" . But then you think, "He's a cruiser. Does he even know what starboard tack means?" The rules are to keep people and boats safe.


Why doesn't the first guy to the finish win?
If you really want an answer to this pick up a copy of Peter Johnson's book YACHT RACING, 170 years of speed, success and failure against competitors-and the clock.
This is a fabulous book about the history of rating rules, how they work and why they exist It's quite technical but a very good read and will help you understand what you are looking at when you see boats designed to different rules from different times.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

That's all very interesting and informative I'm sure. I think it would be a lot more interesting as a spectator if it was full contact, smash your way around the mark or get out of the way. The first guy across the line should win . Regardless of design or advantage. That would push the participants to try harder and really get serious on design. And stay out of the way of commercial and recreational craft. Go out to sea, like way out, and sail around buoy's out in the middle of the ocean not the bay. First guy to get his boat prepped and ready has the advantage. That would make it a sport to watch.


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## OPossumTX (Jul 12, 2011)

tomandchris said:


> My father told me something long ago, and I told my children the same thing.
> It is much better to have other people tell you how good/great/talented you are than for you to tell them how good you are. Them telling you means that you have impressed them somehow. You telling them.....means that you are probably the only person that is impressed!


Unless they are blowing smoke up one's nether regions to see if the subject's head will swell up and pop!

Been there, seen it done, had it done to me and still got to laugh.

Have FUN!
O'


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

No excuse for a cruiser not to know and obey the give way rules. Starboard tack is pretty basic. For safety, two boats in close proximity do need to know who should give, otherwise, risk turning into each other.

However, when it comes to using those rules to block an opponent from making a turn they could otherwise make safely, I'm with Aaron. I say duke it out, no technical protests.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> No excuse for a cruiser not to know and obey the give way rules. Starboard tack is pretty basic. For safety, two boats in close proximity do need to know who should give, otherwise, risk turning into each other.
> 
> However, when it comes to using those rules to block an opponent from making a turn they could otherwise make safely, I'm with Aaron. I say duke it out, no technical protests.


Yeah, think about it. I don't watch NASCAR, but they race their balls off and on a track, not on my route to the power plant with a loaded barge, or on my route to the reef with tourists on my dive boat or on my bay where I sail for pleasure. I liken it to the knuckle heads who race their bikes on I 95 in Miami, or the kids who drag on public road way's. Don't yell starboard tack to me, you jibe your way out of trouble, your the one racing on public space. Or go way the frick out to sea and dodge commercial ships. It's another example of racers misplaced entitlement. Ya'll show little care for safety just in the basics of the reason you are there, so go for it I say. What are the rules there for again? So you don't bump boats? what kind of race is that? Smash 'em up I say. knock each other off course, race those things. And then what? come to the dock after a "HARD" day of gentle racing around inflatable buoys and make my wife's Hard day at work that much worse by being dicks. No, I aint hav'n it. The more I think about it the more dicks racers become.


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## jak3b (Apr 24, 2011)

Your bay?.Who is sounding entitled now.Come on dude Key West?,the HOARDS of tourists running through there daily dont bother you but a handful of 'racers' do.Whats the chip on your shoulder?, they are rich or appear to be?.Theres rude,entitled people from every class.Ignore them, go on about your life,Enjoy your self.You dont need there approvel do you?.We have many major races going on here in San Francisco through out the year.Now there is the Americas cup.I havent had a negative experience with a single yachty yet.Go near a tech convention if you really want to experience rude entitled pricks.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

jak3b said:


> Your bay?.Who is sounding entitled now.Come on dude Key West?,the HOARDS of tourists running through there daily dont bother you but a handful of 'racers' do.Whats the chip on your shoulder?, they are rich or appear to be?.Theres rude,entitled people from every class.Ignore them, go on about your life,Enjoy your self.You dont need there approvel do you?.We have many major races going on here in San Francisco through out the year.Now there is the Americas cup.I havent had a negative experience with a single yachty yet.Go near a tech convention if you really want to experience rude entitled pricks.


Well it's a bit more than a hand full during race week. And it's clear they assume right of way in Miami on the weekends with how they skirt danger with our tug and barge on Biscayne. The yahoos that run the cattle-marans are equally annoying. I'm just say'n. I was over took by a race week douche a few years ago on my way out to the back country, both of us under sail. As the over taken vessel regardless of sail or steam I had the right of way. He kept yelling for me to get out of his way because I was making him miss his mark. I guess he went up wind of me to keep his wind and then needed me to tack so he could safely cut in front. I don't give a fly'n fu%k about him or his objective. I hold my course and he falls off to pass behind me. I hope he lost. I aint in that race, he chose to pass me on the windward. he should of passed down wind and went on his way. My mind keeps going back to the video of the Italians and the children in the opti's. Typical. I say, put your race course out at sea and dodge freighters. keep out of our way. Commercial, charter and rec. Ya know what you guy's are entitled to....dick.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Yep, like I said before, I'm glad you are in the opposite end of the country. You sound a wee bit angry and bitter to me.

Why would anyone want to mess up a race when they weren't racing? Just to muck things up for someone? I don't get it.

The solution for this problem is Schumann's 1st symphony, played loud but not too loud so it bothers any neighbors.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

bobperry said:


> Yep, like I said before, I'm glad you are in the opposite end of the country. You sound a wee bit angry and bitter to me.
> 
> Why would anyone want to mess up a race when they weren't racing? Just to muck things up for someone? I don't get it.
> 
> The solution for this problem is Schumann's 1st symphony, played loud but not too loud so it bothers any neighbors.


Why would those dicks put their race course in the only channel we use to get in and out of our harbor. They're just asking for people to pass through the course. That was the only year they did it, and realized their mistake and moved it out further to no mans land. But of course by your perspective we are messing up THEIR race. Which of course, once again makes my point. The same argument was made by the Italians as to why they ran over the children in the Opti's. "It was in our way" they say " not our fault" 
The more racers defend their position on why they race, why they have the rules, the more they dig them selves in a dick hole, Which again I love, because Ya'll keep making my point for me.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Oh, and I'm far from angry, I'm hearing The Bach Sweets and loving this romp. 
Schumann....


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## jak3b (Apr 24, 2011)

I dont know Bob, Shumann's 1st might not do it.Maybe Bartok: 6 string quartets to untangle those damaged nurons and dendrites and re-align the brain cells properly.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

jak3b said:


> I dont know Bob, Shumann's 1st might not do it.Maybe Bartok: 6 string quartets to untangle those damaged nurons and dendrites and re-align the brain cells properly.


More fitting would be some Shostakovich to exemplify the chaos, and utter chaos that is the racing ego intertwined with rules of engagement.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

No,,,I'm going to punish him and punish him good:
John Adams JOHN'S BOOK OF ALLEGED DANCES
followed by:
The John Adams string quartet.

That should bring that guy to his knees begging for mercy.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

bobperry said:


> No,,,I'm going to punish him and punish him good:
> John Adams JOHN'S BOOK OF ALLEGED DANCES
> followed by:
> The John Adams string quartet.
> ...


Hold while I google please.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Trust me Aaron, you do not want to be tied to a chair with those Clockwork Orange thingies on your eyes being made to listen to this ****e.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I googled it. Ok Ok obscure. chaotic, I brush my teeth with that sh!t! That all you got? My wife is a cellist that likes Philip Glass. Bring it. 
All kidding aside. Racers have proven to be a pain in my ass through the years, and to some degree still are. At ten tomorrow morning, I will be at the helm of a 400 foot tug and barge full of black oil, making way across Biscayne Bay south of Miami, and as usual, I will be taking her out of gear and blow'n my horn to let them pass and not
" Mess up their practice race" In fact I have gone out of my way one thousand times to the one I didn't to not impede a race. And I have kept my mouth shut 1000 times to the few that I have opened it in regard to their dis respect to my friends, spouse and neighbors here in the Key's. I could play dick sword fight all day with racers on who his in the right. Racers are oblivious to their transgressions. I've known that my whole life. I still get a kick out of tell'n 'em to suck it every once and a while. I like the look on their face and I can read their thought's " Did that guy just that to us?" "Who was that?" "Why?" ( said in Scooby Doo voice of course.) I have a whole township of Locals behind me who have story after story of why we love to hate 'em.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

wingNwing said:


> Nothing new the ocean can teach him?


Holly crap, that one sent chills, don't even want to be around this guy when that day comes...............and it will


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

kjango said:


> I had a guy today proclaim that " Very few know as much as I do about sailing."... He immediately replied that if you can sail in the Chesapeake you can sail anywhere . Any notions among sailnetters about that ?


Back to the original issue, which contains three faulty premises:

1. The first faulty premise is that experience matters most, that experience is the _sine qua non_ for sailing/passagemaking. We have all seen how erroneous that idea is. One of the reasons the _Bounty _incident was so compelling was that Captain Walbridge had more sea experience than almost all of us, yet his poor judgment, lack of common sense and faulty decision-making resulting in his death and the death of an innocent female crewmember. How many incidents have we read about involving very experienced skippers, including delivery captains, who do very stupid things resulting in USCG rescues, loss of property and/or loss of life?

What matters most is common sense, problem solving, and decision-making ability, not years of experience.

2. The second faulty premise is that breadth and scope of knowledge about the general subject of "Sailing" matter. There are many old salts here with a wealth of maritime knowledge. Most of it seems irrelevant to actual real-life cruising. One could memorize _Chapman's Piloting and Seamanship_ and still be incompetent at handling a boat in real life situations. What matters is being a master of the basics, keeping it simple, and knowing what is important and essential.

A perfect example is knot tying. One can get by perfectly well by knowing how to tie five knots: a square knot, a bowline knot, a half hitch, a clove hitch, and a figure eight knot. Yet there are books that will teach you how to tie 50 different knots. For what purpose? A love of all things salty and maritime? Possessing a vast knowledge of "Sailing" does not necessarily translate into an essential foundation for successful sailing/cruising/passage making. In fact, some seem to become lost in the details and a quest to buy more and more boat stuff.

3. The third faulty premise is the idea that one man's opinion matters, particularly on this listserv. Here is where big egos are involved. To a minority of members here, it is very important that everyone accept their opinions as gospel, without any disagreement. Their egos are very invested in their sailing experience and they think their experience matters. Apparently, it is part of their identity and self-worth.

What really matters is the foundation or support for one's opinion. What matters is the objective third party references, the analysis, the thought pattern and the personal experience with a particular situation or place behind the opinions, not what any one person thinks. One of the best things I have drawn from this listserv are book recommendations from more experienced members here, not necessarily their opinions.

On the side issue of whether the Chesapeake Bay prepares one well for all situations, I do agree the Chesapeake Bay is a benign body of water to sail on. It is a beautiful place to sail, but not very challenging most of the time. The bottom is soft, the tidal range is small, there are few hazards, and there are many safe harbors to duck into when trouble arises.

I, for one, appreciate the wide variety of opinions and experiences on this listserv and I don't understand why some seem to require that their bare opinions carry more weight than others. Tell me why you believe something, provide your analysis and your resources, not your opinion as the gospel truth.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

What matters most is* common sense*, problem solving, and decision-making ability, not years of experience.

James, 
The real issue is that common sense is not that common.....


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Aaron and Bob are going at each other with...classical music??!!

I must be in some alternate SailNet universe.

I think I like it.


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## TJC45 (Jul 10, 2013)

I've raced at two yacht clubs that line a commercial river. The race courses, generally, cross the channel. That channel is the roadway for everything from small passenger ferrys to large ocean going freighters and tankers. The clubs both have extensive sailing instructions regarding sailing in and across the channel during races. And, instructions on dealing with the commercial traffic? Basically all those instructions can be summed up in one small sentence. "Stay out of the way!"

Included in the instructions are do not cross points. That is, if a ship is within these markers do not cross the channel in front of the ship. That goes regardless of your speed and the ship's. There are also instructions informing racers that there are cables between tugs and barges. These clubs have operated for decades without incident. The rules are enforced, so i'm told, with a heavy hand. 

And, fortunately, the clubs have options in certain wind/current conditions to set courses that don't come near the shipping channel.

I mention this because the attitude displayed at both these clubs is anything but "We own the river." If anything, it is quite the opposite. A lot of respect is given to the commericial traffic.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

> (he looked maybe 40 to me)


I knew everything about sailing when I was 40 from sailing the Pacific since childhood, unfortunately I've forgotten or abandoned most of that wisedom in the intervening decades and they keep coming up with new stuff.
I love to race or cruise, I crew for friends with very nice boats and deep pockets, nobody wears matching T-shirts unless it's a charity regatta and then those who can afford it buy them and make the boat's contributions for the crew.
You guys been hanging with the wrong rich sailor's, the best ones I know dress like old wharf rats and mingle right in amongst us common working folk.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

TJC45 said:


> I've raced at two yacht clubs that line a commercial river. The race courses, generally, cross the channel. That channel is the roadway for everything from small passenger ferrys to large ocean going freighters and tankers. The clubs both have extensive sailing instructions regarding sailing in and across the channel during races. And, instructions on dealing with the commercial traffic? Basically all those instructions can be summed up in one small sentence. "Stay out of the way!"
> 
> Included in the instructions are do not cross points. That is, if a ship is within these markers do not cross the channel in front of the ship. That goes regardless of your speed and the ship's. There are also instructions informing racers that there are cables between tugs and barges. These clubs have operated for decades without incident. The rules are enforced, so i'm told, with a heavy hand.
> 
> ...


That's how it should be. I don't "hate' people who race, I do love picking on the snotty 30 something year old kids who are rude to my town folk. We all know the type. We have been cut off by many a race boat on their way back to Miami Beach Marina after a race while they were under power. They know they can scoot in front us, but they cut so close they disapear 'cept for the mast in front of the barge, it looks like we're about to hit them. That is usually when the engine will fail and disasters happen. I don't know it all but I know that. 
80% of the cracks I make about "Racers" is with my tounge in my cheak. And as I said it's not towards people who enjoy racing, it is towards the fore mentioned crowd, which unfortunatly seems to be a lot of 'em.
I still think it should be a smash up race to the last man floating type sport, maybe we should start a league of X tream racing, I would even sail in a race like that.
The only rule being get there first.


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