# Best way to cleat off non-tailing winches?



## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

Currently, I have a horn cleat that I use to tie off the jib sheets after winching. Is it better to have a cam or jam cleat instead? Or is that a whole new pain in the arse?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Your set up is one of the main reasons I bit the bullet and converted to self-tailing winches. Now my self tailers will hold in most conditions. But I am considering a jam cleat for my mainsheet winch (which is still not a self-tailer)

On a previous boat I installed winchers. They are the poor man’s self-tailors. They worked surprisingly well for the price.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Horn cleats can be snag hazards but are hard to beat for simplicity and reliability. I would stick with what you have for now.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

This came in real handy for the traveler lines and the winch halyards and since most of my sailing was tacking almost constantly on the river I used them more for the winches


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

Ah, I do like that. Keep the horn and add a cam. Gives an option for cleating.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

This is one option.. it also frees up seating space on the coaming, if that's an issue with the horn cleat. The one downside is that the cam cleat might be in someone's back on occasion while seated on the cockpit seat.

Get a good, metal (not plastic) cam cleat for this application.


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## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

I had normal horn cleats on mine too and greatly disliked them. I thought about cam cleats, like the one shown above, but wound up putting in Schaefer jam cleats. Not sure if it's clear from the photo below, but one horn has a jammer built in so that you don't need to tie a full cleat hitch and can still release the line quickly.










I was also able to put them in without adding any holes, and they still work like normal cleats if necessary. I've used them for tying on additional lines in unusual docking situations, etc.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

Hey Chip, how many wraps did you put on that cleat? Or do you just put a hitch other end of the horn with no wraps?


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

My Capri 25 had Clams (at an angle).








Loved them, thought the whole time I owned it, that cams would be better.

My S2 7.9 had Cams (straight up and down)








They work great except, they are a PITA to cleat! Think about it, you have to be trimming and feeding to get them to cleat!

I changed my S2's out to clams because the cams sucked so bad... They are a PITA to cleat! Uncleat they are awesome.









My present boat (Wavelength 24) has jam cleats. Haven't used them yet.









The downsides to CAMs are they are hard to cleat one handed (unless you hold them in while you winch).
The downsides to CLAMs are they can be a bear to UNCLEAT in a hurry with lots of load on them (say you are overpowered and need to dump the genoa, not that its ever happened to me)
I'd think the advantage to JAMS would be relatively easy to cleat, relatively easy to uncleat, so basically the compromise choice.


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## OldEagle (Nov 16, 2013)

> Hey Chip, how many wraps did you put on that cleat? Or do you just put a hitch other end of the horn with no wraps?


I've got the same type of jamming/horn cleats as Chip on my Vega. The jamming horn faces forward. I bring the jibsheet once around the aft horn, then forward and jam the wrap beneath the jamming horn. It's fast, simple, and has been very reliable. I like it quite a lot. As Chip noted, when not under sail, it also provides an extra horn cleat on each side, which often proves useful.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> ....mainsheet winch (which is still not a self-tailer).....


Halyard?

Selftailers are the 3rd hand....sometimes wish I had 4 hands...

I like the idea of that jam horn cleat, and that the bolt spacing 'might' be the same...


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## chip (Oct 23, 2008)

Yep, mine are set up like OldEagle's. Around the aft horn and then into the jaw and that's it.


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

I like Jamb Cleats. Will hold the sheet with a single turn and really secure with another half turn. The boat I just bought has clam cleats and they suck big time. Way too easy to disconnect the sheet from the cleat and having to crank the sail back in again. I'm buying a set of jamb cleats for that boat as soon as I get back to the boat. Cam cleats are a bit more secure than clam cleats but still can too easily be released. They can also be hard to get the line inserted into them with one hand cranking the winch and the other tailing.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

RegisteredUser said:


> Halyard?


No, the mainsheet winch. Halyards also have winches, but self tailors are not needed there.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

I have self tailers, but don't always use them when singlehanding. Like Chip and others, I have jamb cleats. If I'm tacking from closehauled to closehauled, I use the self tailers, so I can grind the sheet in to closehauled. If I'm easing the sheets to a beam or broad reach, or tacking to some heading that's not closehauled, then I don't use the self tailers, and cleat the sheet to a jamb cleat with a single wrap around it. It's easy to cleat and uncleat. In fact, I can uncleat the line with a flip of the wrist, while 4-5 feet away from the cleat.

There's no "best" kind of cleat for all uses. It depends on the boat and how you'll use it. I used clam cleats on a 25' racer. I used cam cleats on another small racer, and have used jamb cleats on several bigger boats up to 44'. Use whatever is most functional, but think about it awhile before you drill more holes in your baby.


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## DonScribner (Jan 9, 2011)

I think it really depends on the size of your boat, because size really does matter . . . 

We sail a Lancer 25 on the Atlantic of the "rock bound coast of Maine" every possible waking moment. I say this to qualify myself in some way as putting up with some weather and waves. MY jib is 150% so I get some pressure on my lines. I read a thread a while ago that said "just wrap it around three times and don't worry about it!" I took that literally and now I simply wrap my jib sheet three times around the base of the horn cleat. The last wrap invariably ends up in between the previous wrap and the cleat and tightens right up. I've sailed like this in some good winds and if it loosened once, I don't recall. Now, for the big girls, you probably can't do this. Probably be a dumb idea. In fact, it might, hypothetically speaking, whip off the winch, fly forward and get so balled up with the other jib sheet that you have to go forward and frantically try to tame the beast. At which point the flailing sheets smack you in the face, driving your new $650 glasses into the bridge of your nose (leaving a scar visible today) then they might fly off and cling tenuously to the toe rail over 65 feet of pitching Caribbean sea, and you can't see them, because they're YOUR glasses. Hypothetically speaking . . . of course.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

Don, that's interesting. I've found that I have become less fastidious about cleating the jib sheet over time, and still never had a release. 2 or 3 wraps should bind as well as a jamb cleat or a proper hitch. I'll give it a go, (and won't hold you to it should I lose the rig and my beer).

FYI, I also like to make systems easy for guests, so that is part of the motivation for the question.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

If I may, jib sheets should always have stopper knots in the end, preventing them from pulling clean through the fairleads (or genoa cars), should said sheet "self release."


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## LuminaL (Feb 14, 2017)

I like to be able to dump the sails in a hurry if i need to so i like either selftailing winches or V-Cleats / Clam cleats. Servo cleats tend to have a relativly low working load so i dont like them on lines that i cant hold in my hand if under heavy load. Works well on the main sheet if the cascade is gearing up enugh.

Horn cleats are great for long distances since if they are wraped well they will not get loose unless you take the line off. Most other cleats and ST winches can slip or accidentaly loose the line. 

Horn cleats is best if you only run around the base one turn. More turns can jam and then it´s knife time if you get in trubble.

The turn around the base will keep the load of the folowing parts of the line so it is less likely to jam. two crosses to hold and a twisted cross to lock the line. This makes the line easy to get off even under load.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I'm with Faster. I have 6 cam cleats in the cockpit, in spite of the fact that the 4 winches are self tailing. In a breeze I like them out of the tailers for speed, and a horn cleat wouldn't solve that. Also handy for assorted line tails that are not in jammers and are not always in use, like, spinnakers, twings, and preventers.


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## willyd (Feb 22, 2008)

This is what my winches came with, and I find them really convenient, but hardly necessary, when tacking: https://www.lindemann-kg.de/images/bilder/thumbnails/450x450f/k3/bt21641.jpg


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

I'm going to stick up for horn cleats. 

Less prone to a slip than cam cleat, easier to get cleated when there's lots of tension, and you couldn't pull "back" into a cam. If you wrap once, you can get by with a half-hitch above that, so it ain't all that slow. No chance of getting kicked out or jumping out because not fully "home", which can happen with a cam. Easier to work one-handed than a cam.

And if you get an override on the working winch, the horn cleat base can make a poor man's "turning block" to lead the rolling hitch line you'll use to go to the empty winch to take tension off the override mess.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

My winches are not self tailing, and I use a horn cleat with no problem, and I usually single hand sail, even in the worst weather.

I had these on my Catalina 27 and they worked great.






Gary


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

It all depends on how the deck hardware is laid out I suppose. I have to reach behind my cockpit combing to get to my winch horn cleats. This makes them awkward to get at in the best conditions. When things are fast or bouncy, it's downright difficult. This is one reason I spent the Big Boat Bucks to get out self-tailing Andersens. Love them, but not cheap.










I would never get rid of the horn cleats. If we're on the same tack for a while, or it's really blowin', I cleat to the horn. But the location of our horns make it a challenge, especially for short tacking.

I used Winchers on a previous boat. Worked pretty well, especially considering the price.


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