# Beneteau 440 - Moorings 445



## gilsurf (Dec 12, 2006)

We are in the process of purchasing a 1992 Beneteau 440 (Moorings 445) 3 cabin-3 head model. It was a Moorings boat and then sold to a 2nd owner who upgraded it in 2004-5. Upgrades:


New Yanmar engine and transmission
Upgraded wiring
Slew of Raymarine electronics
Mainsail
 More...
I am interested in others' reflection on this boat, good and bad points, issues to look for, etc.

We are a family with 2 kids, 2 and 5 years old.

Thanks!
Gil


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

http://www.boats.com/content/default_detail.jsp?contentid=7755 provides a review of the boat design by Bob Perry.
The questions I would have are:
1. How has the boat structure fared in charter. Many charter boats are treated roughly by the renters with groundings common...So you need a good inspection of the hull and keel by a surveyor who will take the time to do it right.
2. Why would someone dump $30K or so into a boat and then sell it? Did he have a personal situation that forced it or was the "upgrade" necessary o sell the boat and what else might be "hiding"? Could this be a hurricane boat that had to have engine and electronics replaced due to water ingress?
3. What is the age and condition of the standing rigging after 15 years?
4. Is the boat in perfect condition suitable for your cruising needs? Where are you going with her and is she designed to thrive in those conditions and support a family. (Example..fuel tankage would be light for extended blue water passages.)

Don't mean to sound negative...just trying to insure you ask the right questions before plunking down a lot of $$. Hopefully you will have good answers on all and get a boat that is perfect for your family and fun to sail.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A twelve-year old diesel usually isn't in need of replacement... an overhaul maybe, but replacement? Sounds like there's more going on than you've been told. I'd agree with Cam that a good survey needs to be done at a minimum.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Maybe sunk?*

I know charter boats take a beating, but the "upgrades" seem excessive to me. Something just doesn't sound right. I agree wholeheartedly with getting a good survey!


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## gilsurf (Dec 12, 2006)

Thanks for the thoughts, esp. from another Gil in the world  They are all good ones. Yes, it seems like the big Q is why were the upgrades done, esp. the motor and tranny after 15 years. Electronics are usually minimums on charter boats, so those upgrades seem reasonable. The rig looks to have been updated recently. As to water entry, other areas do not show this... systems at same level as motor show age (pumps, water heater, etc.). But this is one to look into.

Of course we will have a thorough survey done, looking closely at structural components.

Why selling: Owners live in Carib and decided they do not use the boat enough to warrant the expense.

As for our cruising/living situation, sorry to not have provided this earlier. We will live aboard in St. Thomas (already live here in a house) on a mooring and cruise the Caribbean. No bluewater passages planned. Fuel =40 and water =200, so yes, fuel would be an issue outside of the Caribbean. Power will need to be upgraded to solar/wind (currently relies on high output alt) and a watermaker added. OW, systems are all set and many new.

We had looked at older more robust cruising boats (ex. Morgan 461), but the bank requires a newer popular boat such a Beneteau for resale reasons.

Thanks again and Happy Holidays!
Gil


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Boat could have been a submarine.


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## gilsurf (Dec 12, 2006)

And still have the interior parts looking like they have more age than a few years?


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

gilsurf said:


> We had looked at older more robust cruising boats (ex. Morgan 461), but the bank requires a newer popular boat such a Beneteau for resale reasons.


You might want to go to a bank that specializes in marine loans. A Beneteau will have a fraction of the residual value after a few years that a better built boat will. I'd consider a Beneteau "First" series, but the residuals on any other model will be very low. If you WANT one of the better built boats, perhaps you can bring documentation to your bank showing the higher values of better built boats. Good luck with your purchase!


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Gil...sounds like you're doing your homework and it is well suited to your cruising plans and family size. I wouldn't worry too much about resale cause if you get a good deal on her future depreciation should be minor on a 15 year old boat. Hope ya get a good survey result!


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## S/VNirvana (Jan 2, 2004)

If you are purchasing a Moorings boat and you have seen all the replacements; it is because the owner went through a phase out program probably with a qualified surveyor and indicated these thing had to be replaced. I am a Moorings owner of a charter vessel and have kept on top of the maintenance of our vessel. Last year I did not like the way the heads were acting and complained about checking/replacing the joker valves and instead of repairing them they replaced all 4 heads. The moorings in Tortola has a very good maintenance program and if the owner and the surveyor indicate items to be replaced or repaired at phase out The Moorings usually does it. The condition of the vessel according to my contract states it is to be removed from the program in an AS NEW CONDITION.

Try www.sailonline.com for more info on boats being sold from The Moorings and other charter companies. They have a forum that you can join to speak with owners.

Sonny
s/v SKYLARK For Sale
s/y NIRVANA, M494


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## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

Sonny,

Interesting about Moorings bringing the boat's up to scratch but this boat would have come out of the Moorings fleet about ten years ago. The poster says the second owner did the upgrades in 04/05. I can understand the new engine because this is the most common complaint with ex-charter boats.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Better late...*

Interesting Debate.

I bought an ex Sunsail 440 just over a year ago. She really had been hammered but the price reflected this. The engine was a perkins 50 which has been obsolete for some time now. She has already been re-built with bills to prove. The boatt has been extensively renovated both before we bought it (bills and photos to show) and there are some CRITICAL issues that you must review on the boat you are looking at to make sure the boat is sound. If they have not already been attended to, you would be wise to budget for them.

We have had some great fun in her to date, but she has almost bust me, mainly due to the bullshiters promising the earth and not delivering in the Miami area! We are considering (very reluctantly) selling having spent so much on her, we had to keep going and now we have a very unhappy bank manager. Will let tyou know in 6 months if we have let her go or not!! Mail me at [email protected] if you would like a full run down of the issue, the solutions and the cost we had.


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## gilsurf (Dec 12, 2006)

Thanks for all the notes. The Moorings 445 is a 1992 and only did one round in the Moorings fleet (no second round in a B fleet). Thus, it has not seen as much abuse as other charter boats of this age. The 2nd owners did the upgrades (motor due to an issue in the head and decided to replace rather than rebuild).

The survey yielded some issues, 2 of which:


Blisters: 13 small to large (few dinner plates). Will be spot repaired (grind, dry, glass, fair, barrier)
Water tanks leaking: Integral water tanks in main salon (4) leaking from sealed lids. Will be repaired by remove lids, grind, fair and epoxy back on lids.

There was no evidence of water damage as suspected by a previous poster.

Overall, we are happy with the boat and moving forward. Thanks for your input.

It is interesting how little info is out there on retrofitted ex-charter boats. Humm, perhaps a need for such a site?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Agree, 

we re-glassed the boat with 7 coats of west system epoxy and found some serious interior issues. We took the interior and re-built the main beam then glassed in the lot (it was really poorly constructed and as well as other things the mast step had rotted away, causing the mast tto drop 3/4 inch)

the watertank leak. Its a common problem with these boats. You will need to remove the tops and replace the seals with a better pressure seal.

We went for a new Yanmar engine (4JH4-E) and it made a huge difference (power, efficiency, smeel, noise, reliability - Budget $20k)

we also did loads of replacing of hoses, wiring, pumps, skin fittings etc, as well as all the vinyl, bimini, a number of blocks and sheeves, anchor motor, batteries, charging system, and converted from a 4 cabin 3 heads to a 3 cabin 3 heads with a new sole throughout to boot. New sails (overspeced furling from hood) finish her power replacement off nicely. - The lot cost approx $30k including yard, labour and material costs (excluding engine).

Best of luck and hope to see you on the water ;-)))


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## gilsurf (Dec 12, 2006)

Wow! That is quite a job on a newish boat! Luckily, much of this has already been done on this boat (Yanmar, charging, electronics, skjn fittings, rig, sails, etc. On the water soon!


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## serenity440 (Aug 22, 2010)

*Same leaky water tanks*

Gilsurf,

I also have a 440 which I have had for almost two years now. The only major issue that I have left to address is the leaking water tanks. When on my own I simply will the forward tank only.

It seems that the seals are a challenge to get to without pulling up the entire salon. If you made these fixes can you please advise as to the procedures and costs that were involved.

Personally I am thinking about adding bladders or cutting away and replacing with separate tanks.

Cheers


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## gilsurf (Dec 12, 2006)

The job was done by a professional in the BVI who sees this all the time. $2000 for all salon tanks. Some of the salon furniture had to move, but not all. The lids are such that once the seal is broken, you can slide them out. The centerline bench of the settee had to be unfastened and shifted a few inches, but not completely removed.

You could replace these with bladders, but it would be difficult due to the tank shape. Capacity loss would be large.

I have images for the repair process, but the upload is failing. PM me and I will email them to you.

Good luck!


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Hope you have the conventional main cos the in mast furling is pants for Caribbean sailing. 

Full batten main and lazy jacks is the better option. IMHO.


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