# Buying a 30-40 year old boat - your opinions



## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

It was when, at the boat Annapolis Boat Show this year, I found myself inside the Sabre 456, an absolutely gorgeous boat and probably my favorite there, that I asked myself, "How would you feel if you owned this boat?"

Outside of being able to own a boat like that, I looked at the boat being my home on water. Surprisingly, I thought something wasn't right (outside of the fact I couldn't afford it ). I then realized I would need to break it in first, give it some experience, some history on the water, before I could feel comfortable on it. But when I think about the older boats I've been on, I never felt this way.

Pam Wall was staying at the same B&B as we were. We got to meet her Friday morning at breakfast. When she said you have to feel some chi with a boat before buying it, I knew what she was talking about. I couldn't feel chi with any of the new boats at the show. I guess I like older boats.

I know there are a lot of negatives about buying an older boat and that a thorough survey is a must. On maintenance and repairs, I can handle much of that. I'm an electrician and an avid woodworker. I have a pretty good mechanical aptitude. And I like the satisfaction of fixing things myself.

On my dad's boat I installed all the electronics, repaired the generator, did most of the oil changes, repaired the heads, maintained and rebuilt the pumps, sanded the entire bottom (once) and painted it, season after season. I even did some gelcoat repairs.

But it's the structural stuff that concerns me. A boat 30-40 years old, especially one that's been well sailed, could have hull or rigging problems that are only another storm away from failure. That's where my apprehension begins.

For those of you who have made the plunge and bought an older boat, what has been your experience? What are the pitfalls? What have you had to pay for and what have you been to fix yourselves? And what boats really hold up that long?


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## ctl411 (Feb 15, 2009)

I sail a 30 year old Hunter 37 cutter up the lake from you in Holland. Most of the boat is original still had the stock sails until last year.


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## lajimo (Sep 5, 2011)

I bought a 1985 hunter 40 a year ago. Despite a good survey there have been many items to repair. I think on older boats you should assume pretty much everything needs to be repaired/replaced/upgraded - its just a matter of prioritizing to figure out when. Given your skills, I'd say you are way ahead of the average new-old boat buyer, especially with your electrical background. From the posts I've seen here and elsewhere my impression is that any boat repair can be done yourself, if you have the time, patience and will. Including standing rigging if that's your primary concern. Of course it will probably be necessary to find a yard that can help you pull the mast with a crane if you go with anything even approaching the size of a Sabre 456. Personally I'm finding the learning process of maintenance and repair to be enjoyable and satisfying - a nice bonus on top of the sailing experience, and I don't begrudge the time. Pretty sure this is a common sentiment among owners of older boats.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I went in knowing i would have to rip the boat completely apart 


BUT there are plenty of boats that have had this done Or were well cared for enough throughout there life that there in sail-away condition


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Our boat will be 33 years old in February; we bought her 12 years ago. Pretty much, we bought a sturdy hull with a layout we liked, and planned to replace "everything." Because of the boat's age, her low selling price plus trucking to our then-home port, meant we could afford to do all that. It seemed our boat was built at a sweet spot of age: they knew how to work fiberglass but weren't totally convinced of its strength, so we're considerably overbuilt (1-inch-thick hull!). Heavy and slow but oh so comfy. Especially with your skills, you could do this too, and get the additional advantages of (1) being able to install *exactly* the systems you want; and (2) knowing how everything is put together, you can fix it yourself if you're out in the boonies somewhere when things go bad.

Downsides: (1) In an older boat, you won't have a hull/keel design that incorporates any advances in marine architecture over the last 30 years - maybe someone with more expertise than me can weigh in on this. Older boats tend to have full keels or modified full; how much difference in sailing characteristics will be gained by swing, bulb, or other new-shaped keels? (2) Unlike a new boat, whose value is pretty straightforward, You will *not* be able to insure an older, refurbished boat for what you have invested in it.

FWIW, there's an old Sailnet thread that touches on this topic: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising-liveaboard-forum/61761-escaping-paradigm-300-000-a.html In it, we posted the cost of our retrofits, copied and pasted below:

We replaced "everything." Everything we put in was new, mostly purchased at Annapolis Boat Show sale prices. The refit took about 2 years and we - mostly Dan - did everything ourselves except the engine, heater, and rerigging installations (for insurance/warranty reasons). The first priority was things that make the boat safer or sail faster, then, everything else (all prices in boat bucks, a.k.a, thousands of dollars)

Yanmar engine 20
Frigoboat keel cooled refrig/freezer 2
Lofrans windlass & remote switch 3
Autohelm under deck mount autopilot 5
Webasto diesel heater 2.5
replace all standing rigging 5
arch for solar panels with integral cockpit rail 5
Brig 10' inflatable dinghy with 9.8 hp outboard 5
Cruisair reverse cycle air conditioner/heater 2.5
North Sails new mainsail & genoa 5
Force 10 stove/ oven 1.5
replace fuel tanks 2
100' chain, 200' rope and Rocna 44 anchor 1.5

Those bigger ticket items account for $60K of our refit budget. The rest of it (each item $1000 or less) went for: solar panels, bilge pump & 4000 gph "Hail Mary" pump, upholstery/paint/varnish/formica, marine-grade wire, LED lighting, cockpit cushions, trifold swim ladder, bimini, stereo, sinks and faucets, Seagull water filter, 4 AGM batteries, Xantrex Link 20, 2 Garhaur 6-part purchases for dinghy lift, handheld Garmin chartplotter, and (*winks at CruisingDad*) a BBQ.

4 months into our cruise, there is not one single thing I'd change! The solar panels make all of our power needs on sunny days; we generally run the engine about 45 minutes every 4 days to make up the difference due to occaisional cloudiness. We chose not to use a generator (too noisy) and instead use extremely energy-efficient systems, like LED lights and the keel-cooled fridge/freezer, so that we could maintain ourselves with solar. We have no watermaker, but with a 100-gal water tank for 2 people, we can go 3-4 weeks before refilling. We also chose not to install radar because our chosen cruising grounds, US southeast & Bahamas, rarely have fog and we rarely run at night, therefore less need. Disclaimer: these are our solutions, for the way we like to live, I'm not assuming they'd be right for everyone.

end quote

We strolled the boat show last weekend and nothing new and shiny engendered any boat lust at all, except the Gozzard that cost literally TEN TIMES the current appraised value of our boat. I guess we did okay.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

JulieMor said:


> It was when, at the boat Annapolis Boat Show this year, I found myself inside the Sabre 456, an absolutely gorgeous boat and probably my favorite there, that I asked myself, "How would you feel if you owned this boat?"
> 
> Outside of being able to own a boat like that, I looked at the boat being my home on water. Surprisingly, I thought something wasn't right (outside of the fact I couldn't afford it ). I then realized I would need to break it in first, give it some experience, some history on the water, before I could feel comfortable on it. But when I think about the older boats I've been on, I never felt this way.
> 
> ...


My boat was thirty when I bought her. She is now 36. Haven't regretted it for a minute. But I would make sure you start with a very solid, well-built boat (mine is an S&S Swan). But that is only the starting point. Mine had new teak decks, new wiring, relatively new rigging, etc... You don't want to take all that on unless you have limitless time and/or resources. And I'm not sure I would want to buy a boat that age with a cored hull, as it can be hard to figure out its real condition. The key is whether it was a well-built boat to begin with and whether it has been maintained. Also, take a close look at the engine because that can be a big drain. We have only had to do routine maintenance since we bought her.


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## flagorio (May 24, 2010)

I purchased a 1963 Rawson 30 Ketch. Solid fiberglass. We have put in a composting toilet, Engel Fridge, new engine (after 2nd year) new bottom job for about 30 grand. Boat was 9 and its still a great deal as everything else was new.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Some of the older boats I was looking at that I know are solid boats are Swan, Alden, Cambria, Shannon, Hinkley, S&S and Baltic. Other boats that caught my eye but I know less about their build quality are Morgan, Freedom and CSY.

I figure at best I won't be seriously in the market to buy until the house is sold and I don't see putting it on the market until spring. But since this will be a major purchase, learning all I can should start now.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

flagorio said:


> I purchased a 1963 Rawson 30 Ketch. Solid fiberglass. We have put in a composting toilet, Engel Fridge, new engine (after 2nd year) new bottom job for about 30 grand. Boat was 9 and its still a great deal as everything else was new.


Wow! Someone owns a boat that is older than my 1967 Tartan 27'. 
Tartan made some boats that might be worth looking at: T 34C, T 37C. 
Start looking at boats now, even if you are only just a 'looky Louie'.

Older boats seem to be the playground of the not so rich and famous. Older boats are the means by which many of us manage to get out on the water.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Wing.."the Gozzard is mine ( smile)

Our C &C 35 hits her 30 th next year. Many newer boats re not built to the same specs...even the newer C&C. What wing said is our approach also.

Find the boat design you like, then fnd one in good condition. Wait till you have tht.

Dave


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JulieMor said:


> I can handle much of that. I'm an electrician and an avid woodworker. I have a pretty good mechanical aptitude. And I like the satisfaction of fixing things myself.
> 
> On my dad's boat I installed all the electronics, repaired the generator, did most of the oil changes, repaired the heads, maintained and rebuilt the pumps, sanded the entire bottom (once) and painted it, season after season. I even did some gelcoat repairs.


Careful what you reveal - you could end up with a legion of stalkers comprised of recently divorced Sailnetters. 

As to the new boats being soulless - absolutely right. My experience (limited) with current new boats (this millennium) is that they pretty much stay that way as well.

Same as current cars. Maybe it's as simple as them being TOO perfect.

When I'm looking & dreaming on Yachtworld I set the year filter at 2000.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but I don't think so - I absolutely LOVE GPS plotters and have no desire to have to rely solely on paper charts, hand bearing compasses, lead lines etc.


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## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

Well, let's look at it from another angle:
"What deficiencies would cause rejection"?
Structure: balsa core under the water line.
Corroded chain plates
Keel attachment
Questionable power plant
What ever bugs you.

Here's a 37 year old Cape Dory 25 resurrected from discard.
BTW, I'm a firm believer in a full keel.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Wing.."the Gozzard is mine ( smile)
> 
> Dave


LOL, Dave. Ask them to give you a discount because of all the drool we left in that forward stateroom/salon. :laugher


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## b40Ibis (Apr 27, 2011)

We bought a 1974 Bermuda 40 2 years ago. This boat was completely refit 7 years ago including basically everything by a yard not a D.I.Y. The p.o. never recoops their investment in a sell. My advice is to do this- buy a boat that the p.o. has refit. You mentioned your an electrician and work w/wood. Older boats tend to have more brightwork, so that will keep you busy keeping her bright. Older hulls, previous to the oil crisis of '72 are generally a good bet. 
You mention the CSY. my father had a 44 for about 10 years. Good, big roomy boat . Mom liked it...(don't get the walk thru)


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Nothing wrong with balsa below the waterline as long as there are no intrusion already. The balsa core actually lends to the boats stiffness and structural integrity. If taken care of with the proper treatment of the thru hulls when they were bedded in your should not see any difference in moisture readings between balsa cored/ foam cored/ no cored boats. You are eliminating many fine boats here such as Tartans, Sabres etch

Our boat has end grain balsa which has been correctly handled and it gives the boat adde structure you don't find on similarly sized boats. The thru hulls are placed in areas where there is only the epoxy and the coring removed to prevent water intrusion.I my opinion this should not be a disqualifier or you will look past many fine designed and made boats

Anyplace thru hulls or equipment is placed thru laminate wether above or below the waterline a proper procedure must be followed to prevent water intrusion.

Dave


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## dugout (Nov 3, 2007)

I have a 40 year old boat. The only original items are the monel fuel tank, mast, and boom along with the hull decks, hatches, rudder. Everything else has been updated at some point. With a sound hull and deck the rest becomes academic, right. On an older boat it's all about the care and upkeep that has been done over the years. I feel some older boats are better than new. Others are 10 years or so behind in maintenance and these would be a major commitment beyond the normal commitment of boat ownership. Boats pick you for the most part. Just like in life, make sure you can provide what it needs and it can provide what you need.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> I feel some older boats are better than new. Others are 10 years or so behind in maintenance and these would be a major commitment beyond the normal commitment of boat ownership


.

I think of boat care as a list of equipment that each has it's own duty cycle. At some point each thing needs to be replaced. If you get a new boat, all the duty cycles are starting at zero. If you get a used boat, everything is at various points in the duty cycle. Assuming the boat was well cared for, you just have to pick up the process and do whatever is next.


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## b40Ibis (Apr 27, 2011)

The sabre 456 is a sweeeet Maine built boat. No doubt. But- $500k! Half million! (I am Guessing, cause they don't even give the price!). I just y-world the Sabres up, there is a 426 for $379k, 2006 model here in Charleston.

Just my opinion- spend half on a refit classic, spend the other half enjoying and maintaining her.


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## awahl (Feb 18, 2012)

After almost buying a couple of vastly different not quite 30 year old  boats (88 IP 31 and 89 Hunter 30)....we have decided on an 1982 Endeavour 32.

For the condition, updates made, quality of the boat (comparatively both at the time it was new and today)- we feel that we're getting a good deal and nice combination of features/safety/performance -for the period and price point we're buying in....

Are we a little concerned about it being 30 years old and potential to do some updates...? Yes, but we _want_ to make *some* of those updates to make it ours... For others that we must do - we just do.

For us this is part of the whole experience...

We're excited as heck.


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## Flybyknight (Nov 5, 2005)

chef2sail said:


> Nothing wrong with balsa below the waterline as *long as there are no intrusion already.* The balsa core actually lends to the boats stiffness and structural integrity. If taken care of with the proper treatment of the thru hulls when they were bedded in your should not see any difference in moisture readings between balsa cored/ foam cored/ no cored boats. You are eliminating many fine boats here such as Tartans, Sabres etch
> 
> Our boat has end grain balsa which has been correctly handled and it gives the boat adde structure you don't find on similarly sized boats. The thru hulls are placed in areas where there is only the epoxy and the coring removed to prevent water intrusion.I my opinion this should not be a disqualifier or you will look past many fine designed and made boats
> 
> ...


That's a big if Dave and the consequences of a screw up here are, well I'll leave that to your imagination.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

i sail a boat from 1973 and i think it still has orinal rigging :/ still sails good tho


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

I have a '74 Cal 29 and have done an extensive rebuild/overhaul. Going into details is a topic of its own. Some general observations:

Get a good surveyor. There's wide variance. Often insurance companies and boat yards know who will make a though inspection. A diesel survey can be an expertise of its own. 

Boats reach a "fully depreciated" price normally well before, probably at about the 10 year point. At that point depreciation flattens out so you don't necessarily get more value per dollar going much past that. Some specific classics may even improve after a point

I recommend avoiding boats that have big ticket needs. The need to repower, hull blisters, deck water intrusion, need to replace rigging/sails. Get a boat where that's already been done.

The best value in an older boat is where the previous owner's put in a lot of TLC. You never get out of a boat any near what you put in. That's not the point in doing it. Some older boats have been greatly improved by owners over the production boat and that can be a great value to you if the improvements match features that you want. this is particularly true of performance designs. They are great to sail but need considerable improvements for sustained cruising.

ABYC boat standards have changed. For example I ended up rewiring much of my boat because the original work was just to a lower standard and that showed.

If you like carpentry, a stick built interior is easier to work with than a molded interior

Don't count on electronics having much value after about 7 years. You'll probably find yourself making replacements.

Check the web for class information. Boats invariably have an problem the develops with age. It can be a costly one if you have to fix it. On the Cal 29 its the beam that absorbs mast compression. Anyway you can check for it and see if its been corrected.


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## Green Eyes (Aug 19, 2012)

Our Bristol is 30 years old. Wouldn't dream of trading her in on a younger model. Bigger maybe but not younger.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> That's a big if Dave and the consequences of a screw up here are, well I'll leave that to your imagination.- flybynight


That's not a big if. It's easily determined by a moisture meter and good surveyor. You eliminate many good cored boats and boat models with a sweeping generalization about not buying a cored boat below the waterline. The only way this can happen is if thru hulls are inserted improperly. Easily tested with a meter.

So I guess you have elimated Najad and Halberg Rasseys two of he finest made boats from your list as both are dynacell cored.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill. Just check to make sure the boat your are buying in particular doesn't have moisture intrusion. Eliminating cored boats just on that basis eliminates many boats or no reason.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

SloopJonB said:


> Careful what you reveal - you could end up with a legion of stalkers comprised of recently divorced Sailnetters.


:laugher

Blame my mechanical aptitude on my dad. He was almost impossible to please and hopelessly all thumbs. I was very young when I found fixing things for him resulted in him heaping praises on me. The rest is history.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

b40Ibis said:


> The sabre 456 is a sweeeet Maine built boat. No doubt. But- $500k! Half million! (I am Guessing, cause they don't even give the price!).


For the one at the boat show, the list was a bit under $800K. I forgot to bring my piggy bank.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

b40Ibis said:


> You mentioned your an electrician and work w/wood. Older boats tend to have more brightwork, so that will keep you busy keeping her bright.


Electrical stuff is pretty much automatic for me, but while I love working with wood, I'm not so crazy about brightwork. Maybe I can barter.


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## Marcel D (Apr 15, 2012)

Julie 800 k sounds like a ship. If I were you I would check out Kanter Yachts out of Canada, they build an all steel pilot house. Kanter Yachts Flash Launcher Their are quite a few for sale on the internet. They are my dream boat, have a look and let me know what you think. And since it is a custom yard they would let you do your own electrical and wood work if you wnated.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

One of the respected authors on brightwork is a woman: Rebecca Whitman. Brightwork: The Art of Finishing Wood: Rebecca Wittman: 9780071579810: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51Ei8mZOoBL
You can always learn.

Actually she is kind of a varnish maven and makes finishing with a varnish seem quite difficult. I gave up on varnish and gave in to the Cetol Natural Teak dark side as it is much easier to keep looking good. Goes on more like a paint and a lot less ju-ju needed for it turn out right.

Maybe I'm not that crazy about doing brightwork either!


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Julie, you mention the price of the Sabre and here you hit the proverbial nail on the head. Our 30 year old Bristol is a solid bluewater cruiser with a decent turn of speed for its age and purpose. For interest sake, I looked at Annapolis for a similar purposed and size (length and displacement) and the closest I could find was an IP around 46 feet (forget the exact model). It was something like $800k which is close to 4x what we have in Ainia. There is no comparison of the two boats for appearance or performance. I could say easy choice, but there really was no choice. In reality it was not a Bristol 45.5 compared to an IP 46 (size), it was the Bristol vs something like a new Catalina in the low to mid 30s (price).


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

You Bristol is a fine boat. The 45.5 and the 41.1 are on my short list as well as a Mason 43/44. The IP never made it as i doesnt sail as well and I also like the fit and finish of both the Bristols and the Masons, Catalinas never crossed my mind for our last boat. Not bashing them, just not what we wanted syle wise.

Dave


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

I am new to boats and sailing. A year ago I never set foot on a sailboat. My wife and I bought a 37 year old Schock Santana 30. Its been AMAZING. Overbuilt. THICK fiberglass. Its got a smaller main than most modern boats and gets alot of power from its headsail...So I have to reef alot less in bigger winds. In light winds she is still pretty quick for an old boat. Its stable, fast, easy to sail and I can single hand her with ease. Its been VERY well kept up and in the first year of ownership I have done very little other than sail. I bought a new (used) headsail, and recently replaced a bilge pump...and replaced a battery. Thats all the repairs I have done. An older boat thats well cared for is not bad at all. I also drive a 1976 BMW...so I have a soft spot for the classics! The wife? Not so much...lol. She drives a 2013 Audi and loves the new Beneteaus!


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

JulieMor said:


> It was when, at the boat Annapolis Boat Show this year, I found myself inside the Sabre 456, an absolutely gorgeous boat and probably my favorite there, that I asked myself, "How would you feel if you owned this boat?"
> 
> Outside of being able to own a boat like that, I looked at the boat being my home on water. Surprisingly, I thought something wasn't right (outside of the fact I couldn't afford it ). I then realized I would need to break it in first, give it some experience, some history on the water, before I could feel comfortable on it. But when I think about the older boats I've been on, I never felt this way.
> 
> ...


I love these questions you've asked. My Alden Challenger(glass hull and deck) is finishing up season 51 in a week or so. I still marvel at the fact that the hull and decks have needed nothing more than paint over that time. And all other related structural areas have been more than up to those 51 years, and I don't know if even the half way point has been reached.

But a boat as a whole, is a sum of a zillion parts. Many of those parts have been replaced on my boat. It's on it's 3rd engine, countless sails, some rigging(I haven't replaced any in 12 years of ownership), and countless other parts. Yet, I'm amazed at how many parts on the boat are original today.

That is a testament to the designer and builder. This is a peculiar boat(half wood, half glass) that's not for most people, but the same quality was built into all Alden boats and other quality builders you've mentioned.

Take the time to evaluate the individual parts on the boats you consider, their quality, usefullness and remaining life span, as well as the sum of the whole boat. You may end up paying a little more for these better parts, but in the long run, the extra investment will return over and over.

Our son had a docking mishap this year that laid one stanchion flat on the deck, and reshaped an adjacent gate stanchion.

The decks(solid, odd, I know...) took no damage. I took the solid bronze stanchions off and to the local marine metal fabricator. He gave me a doubtful look but said he'd give it a try. He was able to bend the thick solid bronze back to original, and I slid them back into their bronze dovetailed sockets, through bolted and heavily back plated,... 80 dollars later.


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## Mike Banks (Aug 19, 2011)

Don't touch an old wooden boat. The maintenance is enormous and on-going. This reduces sailing time and eats your cruising budget.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

CalebD said:


> You can always learn.


I know stripping, dyes, stains, shellacs, lacquers, varnishes, etc. That's how I know I don't like doing it. 



CalebD said:


> Maybe I'm not that crazy about doing brightwork either!


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Deciding to buy a boat after attending a boat show is kind of like deciding you want to get married after watching a dating reality show - the two have virually nothing to do with each other.

If you want to see the reality of boat ownership, don't go to the boat show, go to a marina. Notice that 90% of the boats sit unused for weeks on end. You may, however, see people working on their boats - fixing the engine, oiling/varnishing the brightwork, repairing the systems.

The boating industry is a victim of its own success. The heyday of sailing as a family recreational activity was in the '70s and '80s. The industry has been in decline ever since then. Many wonderful, well-built, dual purpose sailboats were made during the heyday of sailing, and they have lasted far longer than anyone anticipated.

In its heyday, sailing was often introduced to the family by the father, who became the _de facto_ decision maker in the purchase of the boat. As a result, boats were designed for racing and cruising, with fairly spartan interiors. Interior accommondations and comfort in the marina or at anchor were secondary to performance.

Since the number of new boats built has declined, builders have had to differentiate their products through specialized purpose and realize a greater profit margin on each boat built. Consequently, there are mostly larger, more expensive boats built, and usually built either for cruising, racing, or bluewater sailing. Cruising boats have become more luxurious and spacious belowdecks, usually at the expensive of potential sailing ability which could have been realized due to advances in materials, design and technology.

The result is there is a surplus of well-built, rugged, dual purpose boats which can be acquired for one tenth the cost of a new boat, and which only suffer in comparison to interior space and comfort features, aspects which have little actual bearing on the enjoyment of the boat.

The solution is to buy a 30-40 year old boat and learn to enjoy the maintenance as part of the package of admission to the best recreational activity on earth.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

In the 70's, 80's and 90's, when I was sailing regularly, I had fallen in love with Swans. Most of the knowledge I gained about boats back then was from Sail Magazine and anything I could get my hands on about the racers and the racing circuit. Now, I'm much more a cruiser, though I have no problem going fast. 

In the mid 90's I bought the book, "The World's Best Sailboats: A Survey" by Ferenc Maté. That's when I learned about what Maté considers the finest sailing boats made. Interestingly enough, he listed Beneteau in that book and cited the fact that, at least at the time, they used the same method for constructing their fiberglass hulls as did Swan. If I remember right, no other manufacturers used this method. Don't ask me. I can't remember what it was.

I lent that book out years ago but never got it back. I do remember scouring through it many times when I had it. It would be nice to have something like that for reference but it would have to be a bit more like "Best Sailboats For The Liveaboard" 

I've read every reply thus far and it sounds like there's a good many older boat owners who are happy they bought an older boat. And, from what I've read, there's nothing telling me I would be getting in over my head by doing the same. I just need a better education of the boats out there that should be on my list. I think I also need to put that list in writing.


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

JulieMor said:


> I couldn't feel chi with any of the new boats at the show. I guess I like older boats.


I went to a boat show in Kemah Texas the last couple years, the only one's I've been able to get to so far. This year, I went on the newer boats presented there and I had the same feeling as I did looking at the pictures of the new boats. I had a feeling I was walking into IKEA. Not saying the boats looked cheap because they were very beautiful but something about the interior finish didn't feel right to me. When I was looking for a boat, I was looking for something pre-1990 where things looked and felt better. My boat is a 1981 Norsea 27 and it felt right as soon as I stepped aboard. It needed some cleaning up and a few fixes but seemed well intact. I know I'll have some major projects to do but hope to get a year or two of use out of her before getting into the major $$ projects. This is my first boat so I'm learning a little at a time and I'm happy with my boat. Hopefully soon, I'll be able to get her into a slip and go sailing on a local lake.

I still look at some of the newer boats but still end up drawn towards the older ones.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

jameswilson29 said:


> Deciding to buy a boat after attending a boat show is kind of like deciding you want to get married after watching a dating reality show - the two have virually nothing to do with each other.


Nice analogy!

I have somewhere between 7,000 to 8,000 miles of sailing under my belt. And I know very well the reality of boat maintenance, care and use. We did a lot of sailing on my dad's Columbia 45, making the trek from Chicago to Mackinac and back every year. We even sailed into the North Channel and Georgian Bay on occasion. My dad took the boat through the Great Lakes and down through the Intercoastal. From there I joined him for sails to the Bahamas and down to the Keys.

But it wasn't all sailing. The first year we took it to a boat yard for haul out and winter storage. It sat in the water for over a month until one day one of the glass strainers broke when the water in it froze and the boat sunk - in the Chicago River!

The boat yard cleaned it up but there were problems on it for years after that. I did all of the repairs, including getting the generator to work again. That took me three seasons. Yes, I know boat repair reality too.

For me, the boat show was educational as far as seeing what's out there today. It was also a re-immersion into the sailing world and ended up being a motivator to fulfill my dream of buying a boat when I retire. Oh, and it was also educational in that I found Pusser's Painkillers!


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> I had a feeling I was walking into IKEA.


OMG! That's exactly what we said about many of the boats we walked through in Annapolis!


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> ... which only suffer in comparison to interior space and comfort features, aspects which have little actual bearing on the enjoyment of the boat.


If one is planning to make the boat their only home, as Julie is, then comfort is going to matter quite a lot. Even the most enthusiastic sailors still spend 80 or so percent of their time at anchor.

At the same time, it's important not to take your land sensibilities with you when deciding how much space you "need" to decide what size boat to buy. On land, you may devote a spare bedroom to a home office and therefore assume that when you move aboard you will require a second cabin for this purpose, when in fact, a laptop at the nav station will suffice.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I'm totally in agreement with the 'Ikea' comments wrt to the interior designs and spaces of the newest offerings from boat manufacturers. So many aspects of today's interiors just don't wash for me, I still like the 'traditional' nautical look.

Squared off passageways (actually 'doors' now...) horizontal grain lines of laminate or veneer, angular styling etc don't do it for me. I've no problem with the hull shapes and the design advances performance-wise, and understand that to load these hulls with extra heavy interior appointments would be kind of pointless, still, it seems to me the more traditional nautical trims and details could be maintained. (IMO Catalina so far has kept closest to this standard..)

The other glaring issue with the new boats is volume... foot for foot these boats are huge below, large expanses of cabin sole as the furnishings are pushed to the outside of the hull space. BUT.... the cost of this has been usable storage areas below. Our near-30 year old boat has, in the salon, standard settees with a folding centerline table, but we have storage compartments outboard of these that holds a ridiculous amount of stuff - areas over 18" deep and from hull to deck height. On the newer boats you're lucky to find a 4 inch deep compartment that your handheld GPS might fit into... (okay - that may be a slight exaggeration but you get my drift....)

It's kind of nice to come out of a boat show _without_ a burning desire to put the old girl on the block and mortgage yourself silly for the 'new one'.....


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Faster said:


> I'm totally in agreement with the 'Ikea' comments wrt to the interior designs and spaces of the newest offerings from boat manufacturers. So many aspects of today's interiors just don't wash for me, I still like the 'traditional' nautical look.
> 
> Squared off passageways (actually 'doors' now...) horizontal grain lines of laminate or veneer, angular styling etc don't do it for me. I've no problem with the hull shapes and the design advances performance-wise, and understand that to load these hulls with extra heavy interior appointments would be kind of pointless, still, it seems to me the more traditional nautical trims and details could be maintained. (IMO Catalina so far has kept closest to this standard..)
> 
> ...


I couldn't have said it better.


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Faster hit the nail on the head for me. I walked around a local show this year, and most of the boats don't compare well to my 30-year Pearson.

What I liked: better performance, new, shiny.

What I did not like: generally inferior build quality (80's boats were often overbuilt). 'Ikea"-like interiors. Practicality (e.g. storage space, access to systems) sacrificed for appearances. Often totally devoid of "character". Most just felt "fragile" - like decorative trims would fall off - and I wonder how well they would age?

Personally, I am a fan of an older boat - unless you have a big budget, or are a racer. I'd look for an older boat which has been well maintained, or an older boat which has some obvious non-critical defects. I would avoid "cheap" boats that have been abused/neglected for may years (likely to harbor non-obviou$ defect$), and be very cautious of boats "done up for sale" (which often have defects covered over to give the appearance of a well-loved boat).

Final thought - there is lots of good advice on this site about big-ticket items such as the engine, sails, etc. But - not often mentioned - don't neglect the chainplates. Chainplates should be replaced regularly; on an older boat they may be original. If the mast is down (e.g. replacing standing rigging) pull at least one to check. Crevice corrosion is a <ahem - ladies present - nearly say said a bad word> 'pain'.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

jameswilson29 said:


> Deciding to buy a boat after attending a boat show is kind of like deciding you want to get married after watching a dating reality show - the two have virually nothing to do with each other.


I think watching the Miss America pageant would be a closer comparison.  Things DO go wrong on those dating shows.



> Cruising boats have become more luxurious and spacious belowdecks, usually at the expensive of potential sailing ability which could have been realized due to advances in materials, design and technology.
> 
> The result is there is a surplus of well-built, rugged, dual purpose boats which can be acquired for one tenth the cost of a new boat, and which only suffer in comparison to interior space and comfort features, aspects which have little actual bearing on the enjoyment of the boat.


One thing about this comparison, if you compare new to old on the basis of waterline length rather than LOA (which most people use) the older boats accommodations don't suffer nearly as much. My friends current Hunter 38 was actually the same size as my Columbia 43. A Chris Craft 42 Comanche is about the same size as a contemporary 30' - as well as being a LOT more beautiful.

Your other comments are spot on IMHO.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JulieMor said:


> But it wasn't all sailing. The first year we took it to a boat yard for haul out and winter storage. It sat in the water for over a month until one day one of the glass strainers broke when the water in it froze and the boat sunk - in the Chicago River!
> 
> The boat yard cleaned it up but there were problems on it for years after that. I did all of the repairs, including getting the generator to work again. That took me three seasons. Yes, I know boat repair reality too.


You've already experienced the worst of fixing an old boat then - NOTHING is worse than resurrecting a sunken boat.



> For me, the boat show was educational as far as seeing what's out there today. It was also a re*-immersion* into the sailing world and ended up being a motivator to fulfill my dream of buying a boat when I retire.


You should never use that word again - bad Karma.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Faster said:


> I'm totally in agreement with the 'Ikea' comments wrt to the interior designs and spaces of the newest offerings from boat manufacturers. So many aspects of today's interiors just don't wash for me, I still like the 'traditional' nautical look.


Generally I also agree, particularly around here BUT...when we chartered in the Caribbean the boat was a French "Ikea" boat - a Harmony 47 - and it was very appropriate for that climate. I don't think I'd prefer a "pirate" or shippy interior in a hot climate.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

JulieMor said:


> In the 70's, 80's and 90's, when I was sailing regularly, I had fallen in love with Swans. Most of the knowledge I gained about boats back then was from Sail Magazine and anything I could get my hands on about the racers and the racing circuit. Now, I'm much more a cruiser, though I have no problem going fast.
> 
> In the mid 90's I bought the book, "The World's Best Sailboats: A Survey" by Ferenc Maté. That's when I learned about what Maté considers the finest sailing boats made. Interestingly enough, he listed Beneteau in that book and cited the fact that, at least at the time, they used the same method for constructing their fiberglass hulls as did Swan. If I remember right, no other manufacturers used this method. Don't ask me. I can't remember what it was.
> 
> ...


We couldn't be happier with our Swan. Much cheaper than a new comparably sized boat but sails beautifully, is stiff, seakindly and plows to wind. We even do very well PHRF racing. If you can find one in good shape, highly recommended.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I generally agree with the above comments. I own a 30 year old boat. I also know that many people getting ointo sailing for the first time nowadays are not necessarily looking for the same things I am in a boat. Even though I love the teak interior of our boat, and my house is furnished with rich woods etc, many of the younger people like the ikea type look, many of them like clean lines. many of them look at the open space on todays production boats, and thats exactly what they are looking for. If they built these boats and it wsnt what people wanted...they wouldnt ever sell them. far be it from me to make fun of or denigrate others tastes and looking at what they want in a boat to tailor it to their family.

I have always been a rather traditional sailor for the 40 years i have done it. Twenty years aho I never would have though of putting davits on my fast sail boat as it would have slowed me down. I didnt see a need for electronic instruments...I had a chart. A television....why no way. Times change. I have davits, radar, chartplotter, autopilot, AIS, refrigeration, ways to charge my ipad/ smart phone etc. and yes a flatscreen with a DVD. Am I less of a sailor....nope. Did it take .25 knots off my speed...yes, but not concerned with that anymore. I went from a traditional bolt footed main to a loose footed on...did the world stop spinning on its axis...nope. I also know a lot of the saiolrs coming into the sport for the first time are used to creature comforts as they grew up with them. They all have smart phone ( I do too) and would never think of having a flip phone. Many of them do not want to spend hours on maintainence of wood inside or out so veneer surfaces, and vinal is perfect for what they want. I dont want and huge cockpit, ...its become the norm. I dont want some large assed aft so I can step easily down into my dinghy...but to them...thats what they require. So the new boats are made the way the want things. Also to use the same materials ( teak) and make new boats the way my was made would make the boat a lot more expensive than many could afford.

So when I got to the boat show no I dont really go to look at the boats interiors I look at the way they have changed designs to utikize space that I can do on mine. Many of the boats today are built to meet a price point. Mine was built to aim for a racer who wanted to cruise also. Pure racers looked at my boat 30 years ago as an anathama to their spartan race boats. How dare someone equip a racer with a shower, 4 burner propane stove, 100 gallons of water, good sized nav station. This is natural. 

My friends, the difference now is that we on the other side of the curve than we were 25 years ago when we first got into boating and he traditionalists were saying many of the same things about the type of boats we liked and wanted. Go with the flow. I get pleasure out of seeing families together on weekends anchored in coves on the Chesapeake in the big chlorox bottle white insides with wide assed sterns and creature comforts a plenty boats laughing and being together.

Time to go with the flow. I buy what I want...So can they.

Dave


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> As to the new boats being soulless - absolutely right. My experience (limited) with current new boats (this millennium) is that they pretty much stay that way as well.


Not sure what does soul-less mean in the new boat? If someone buy a new 2013 HR or Jeanneau which is soul-less and wait for another 30 years, would you think these two boats will have soul by then. If no one buys new boats, how could anyone will have old boats to buy.

It is ok if someone prefers to buy an old boat because it is better value and may be one is not financially ready to pay for a new boat. But don't come around to accuse the new boat owner his boat has no soul. A man's boat is like his woman. You don't tell him that his wife is ugly.

I am just sayin'


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Whatever boat one is happy with is the best boat for that person. I'm a firm believer in Wayne Dyer's philosophy, "When you judge, you don't define others, you define yourself." That's why I would never criticize someone for their choice in boat. We are all trying to find our little slice of happiness in this life. Happy people are the best people to be around. 

My dream started with one day owning a brand new Swan. That dream was hatched almost 40 years ago. I'm now a lot more reasonable about that dream but I'm still holding on to buying a boat that is basically solid. I have learned over the years I have always regretted "settling" for something that my gut told me wasn't right.

There's a certain feel I get walking on to a well built boat, into a well built house or sitting in a well built car. You can just feel it. Maybe it's innate. Maybe it's a lifetime of demanding quality from myself in my profession. I don't know. But what I do know is I can get a feel from a boat in a fairly short time. I think that's what Pam Wall was talking about when we had breakfast with her. She called it Chi. I'll call it a good fit. And that's all I want.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

There are used Swann's for sale: Nautor Swan boats for sale - www.yachtworld.co.uk
Not many but a few.

I'll bet you like Rolls Royce automobiles too! Expensive tastes but very good boats.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Beauty as well as well built is in the eye of the beholder.

Dave


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

I sorta agree with C&C. I'm formulating a theory that most old boat(and land vehicle dreams) takes two owners. One to fix it up, and one to enjoy the fruits of the labor... next time around I'm going to try to be the 2nd .
To be fair I've always imagined working at the carnival to be more interesting than wandering around overspending on silly plastic trinkets. The machines at the carnival are COOL.
So long as you get what you need out of the dream, whatever part of it is yours, I'd say it's a win. 
I'm in the halfway department, I'm halfway through a refit, and I still plan to sail her, but I've swung a bit to CnCs side, some of the magic is gone, I've found myself looking at trawlers even recently... but hopefully I finish the refit before it all runs out. Having spent a lot of time fixing other's boats now, I've learned that many(most?) owners haven't got a bloody clue when it comes to boats, which is fine.
My boat's previous owners lived aboard for months, and some of the things I found not resolved told me they hadn't applied their faculties to the boat, I know they were smart enough people.

Also, caveat surveyor. Trusting one of those to use their eyes, or be honest can cost a lot in terms of blood sweat and tears, not to mention money.

Next time I'm trying to buy one that someone else has taken the hit on, where the magic wore out but that next time is far away. When I get to sail mine around the bay sometime soon I'll know if I've crossed the line that CnC did, I like to think I'm still toeing it, learning about the boat, while not entirely losing the magic.

Quality, older and well refit is the best deal, the trick is to find that, barring buying a boat that someone like Chris has done up, find one where whatever is causing them to sell it is something you can handle comfortably. For example I'll take a boat in need of electrical, but not one in need of rigging


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Great post Jg, I've typed a bunch of paragraphs in response - but none express what I really want to say, so I'll maybe come back to the topic later.

Great post though


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I bought a 40 year old Pearson 30, and sailed it home.

I spent the last four days colonizing an island, pillaging St. Michael's and two days beating into a 20kt headwind and a 3 foot chop. The boat handled beautifully. I have total faith in my boat, and it's age is not a problem for me.

The boat didn't really need much to just go sailing, but I raced it for two seasons, so I put several upgrades into her. I'm having standing rigging made up for her now, simply because I feel it's time to replace it.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

We just switched from a 2007 Gemini 105mc (bought new) to a 1987 Irwin 38 Mk II center cockpit. 
The Gemini didn't feel like home, the Irwin does (will). I'm with WingNWing on this one, you'll spend 24/7 on the boat, either underway on the hook or at a marina; it's got be home, not camping. Older boats feel more solid to me. To get that feel in a new boat I've got to go for the 600k plus boats.
I'd rather spend the money on living than the boat. I can make old stuff shiny and if age mattered I'd have to throw myself out.

We bought her with almost none of the things cruisers need fully knowing that we'd be spending her value again in the next three years getting the upgrades in place. 

That gives me three advantages 
1) I'll know the boat and it's systems inside and out because I built it
2) I don't have to rip out old stuff before I put in the new stuff
3) I don't have to worry about fixing or repairing a 30 year old (e.g.) autopilot

By the time I'm done I'll have an arch with about 500w of solar, a battery bank that's three times the current, charging systems to support and monitor all that, efficient refrigeration to make sure I don't NEED all that power just for a few ice cubes in my cocktail, a new fully supported electronics suite that works together from AIS to weather forecasting. 

Sure, it's like taking a school bus and making a modern RV of it, so?


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> I generally agree with the above comments. I own a 30 year old boat. I also know that many people getting ointo sailing for the first time nowadays are not necessarily looking for the same things I am in a boat. ...
> 
> ... My friends, the difference now is that we on the other side of the curve than we were 25 years ago when we first got into boating and he traditionalists were saying many of the same things about the type of boats we liked and wanted. Go with the flow. I get pleasure out of seeing families together on weekends anchored in coves on the Chesapeake in the big chlorox bottle white insides with wide assed sterns and creature comforts a plenty boats laughing and being together.
> 
> ...


Well said, Chef.

The other truth is that if they're just planning on putting around in the Chesapeake, they don't need a boat designed to cross oceans.


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## cookwithgas (Oct 8, 2007)

When you see the right boat you will know it is right for you. When I first saw my boat I knew it was the one for me. At 45, she is still beautiful. Every time I go out in Nellie Belle, I get a thumbs up from another boater or someone comments on how good the boat looks. I love my boat.

"You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take 
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home."


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

chrisncate said:


> ... It's probably best for the dreamy cruiser to buy already refit and just _go_, instead of going down the full refit road.


I think it's impossible to generalize this. The years we spent researching and installing exactly the systems we wanted, just helped us bond even more tightly with this boat. (but then, we're admittedly control freaks and would probably always resented someone else's choices LOL.) Bottom line, I think, is that you just have to know yourself.

And of course, I know nothing better than sailing to give you deep insights into your own character - the good and the bad!


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

You learn a lot when you build your own house. I know I did. One of the things I learned after we moved in was I took on way too much myself. I won't do that with a boat. 

The boat I'll buy will be ready to live aboard and at least take out for short sails. Better, would be harbor hopping. Whatever needs fixing can be done along the way. 

I've been browsing the Internet for over a year. When I look at the photos, I first try to place myself on the boat and, with the compiled images in my head, try to imagine the work I'll have to do to make her home. There have been times I've felt exhausted from just thinking about it. That's my cue to move on.

I had always had enough faith in my ability to spot potential problems and hadn't planned on using a surveyor. But when we were having breakfast with Pam Wall, she kind of sold me on the surveyor idea but warned me not all surveyors are not the same and I'll have to do my homework finding a reputable surveyor. Just another hoop one has to jump through.

Of course I first have to do a lot of work around the house before I sell it. 

It just never ends, does it?


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## HeartsContent (Sep 14, 2010)

I agree with the statement that it must be home to "you".

We just looked at a newer Hunter 33, IKEA city. I will not buy a boat that looks like one of the desks I get at Office Depot - YUCK!. The design and layout of this boat was really good, the quality was awful.

If you intend to cruise the US East coast, Bahamas and Keys, 5 foot should be considered a hard draft limit with 4'6" or less being even better. This removes a lot of those "deals" you see on yachtworld with 5'+ drafts. 

Core hulls and iron keels fit into the "why?" category. Who needs the headache and potentially significant additional expense associated with these. Didn't Tartan have serious quality issues that were widely reported? This is your hull!

One thing is for certain. Caveat emptor should be taken very seriously when buying a boat. 

There is a boat on yachtworld where the boat had been structurally damaged and repaired and the brokers were hiding this fact. I ran into the seller when inspecting the boat and he asked if the brokers told me - they had not. I don't want to paint with too broad a brush with brokers as I have encountered a couple of honest ones


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

HeartsContent said:


> One thing is for certain. Caveat emptor should be taken very seriously when buying a boat.
> 
> There is a boat on yachtworld where the boat had been structurally damaged and repaired and the brokers were hiding this fact. I ran into the seller when inspecting the boat and he asked if the brokers told me - they had not.


Wow!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> Core hulls and iron keels fit into the "why?" category. Who needs the headache and potentially significant additional expense associated with these. Didn't Tartan have serious quality issues that were widely reported? This is your hull!-HeartsContent


Cored hulls a problem. Guess you should eliminate many of the finer boats made..Cored hulls by themeselves are not the problem. Its when the thru hulls are not bedded properly allow water intrusions and therefore moisture. Proper bedding means no moistyre. Most boats above the waterline are cored in some fashion. To each his own though.

Tartans problem was not a cored hull. It was a quality control issue with a new process in terms of laying up the epoxy. Iron keels,,,hmmm I prefer lead.....If tghey encapsulated though there should be no problem

So Hearts...what boats have you owned already? Which ones meet your criteria that you are looking at to buy?

Dave


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

I love what TomMaine wrote: "But a boat as a whole, is a sum of a zillion parts." In looking at older boats you need to evaluate every system and realize that even though it may be in good shape now, will it need replacing during the time frame that you intend to own the boat. Stuff like the basic electrical system is ignored by a lot of people if it "works", but you need to dig into it, including all battery cables, and unless tinned wire was used you may need to replace it all at some point. Same goes for all the hoses; exhaust, engine, scupper and sink drains, sewage, fuel fill, etc. If all the standing rigging hasn't been replaced in 15 years it's recommended to do so. A lot of people get hung up on the condition of the engine, but basically if it's bad you just replace it with new, not that big a deal really. It's all the "zillion" parts that WILL need replacing at some point that can be the ruin of owning an older boat (everyone has heard someone say they just couldn't maintain it any longer as a reason for selling). Basically you need to start with a boat that has good bones, that was professionally built to begin with and hopefully well maintained and upgraded by a knowledgeable owner or yard. I've looked at a lot of older boats that looked great on the outside, until you started peeking into areas that are hard to access, that's where you see just how old the boat is and what was important to the owner. The best advice I could give someone thinking about buying an older boat is to find one that someone just spent years working on and a ton of money on, but had to change their plans for some reason (good advice, wish I'd taken it myself on the three boats I've resurrected). I agree with the Chi thing, hard to define, but you know in short order if a boat has it for you.


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## HeartsContent (Sep 14, 2010)

There's a lot of "ifs" in there but clearly you have your mind made up.

But for the rest, they now know a few things that say "move on" when looking for a boat.



chef2sail said:


> Cored hulls a problem. Guess you should eliminate many of the finer boats made..Cored hulls by themeselves are not the problem. Its when the thru hulls are not bedded properly allow water intrusions and therefore moisture. Proper bedding means no moistyre. Most boats above the waterline are cored in some fashion. To each his own though.
> 
> Tartans problem was not a cored hull. It was a quality control issue with a new process in terms of laying up the epoxy. Iron keels,,,hmmm I prefer lead.....If tghey encapsulated though there should be no problem
> 
> ...


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

I was looking at a Swan today that was within our price range. The photos had me dreaming. But the 8' draft? As much as I wanted to own what was once my dream boat, I had to move on.

A few here mentioned Moody. I looked at two that were also in our price range. If they are as well built as some say they are, this may become our boat of choice. Of course, you can never know until you actually step aboard and see how she fits.

I had thought for years that Cambria should be on the list. At the boat show they had a Cambria 46 (or was it a 44?). It was so tight, it was hard to get around on and I saw a number of things that needed attention. But looking at pictures of the same boat and she looks like a dream.


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## Jgbrown (Mar 26, 2012)

chrisncate said:


> Moral of the story? Don't go nuts on an old boat, just fix it up and go. Go ahead and add those systems you like (or remove them..), make her you're own - but for gods sakes set a line on how far you should go with a refit, and stick to it.


+1.
Also Caveat surveyor, if you have doubts about anything, listen to them! Get an objective friend to go along for an inspection first, as there's little to no recourse against a surveyor who screws you over.

Spending months refitting things damaged through stupidity and abuse that were supposed to be well cared for is a sure fire way to burn out some of your enthusiasm, and change how you see boats.


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## neverknow (Feb 2, 2011)

This may sound strange to all you sailors, but we have a 1984 Power boat and wouldn't want a new want a new power boat either. Besides the fact we are looking to trade her in for a sail boat, even new power boats just don't have the same feel as older boats do.

For us we have had many items to update over the yrs and many items still need to be done, however unless those items are safety related you can do them when and as you see fit.

Each year we fix or replace items on our wish list. Always keeping the safety items at the top.

Another benefit to doing these upgrades is you'll know those systems inside and out. When a problem comes up later you will be the tech support. Not calling a factory with the hopes you'll find someone who knows what they are talking about.

Also our boat cost us $20K 4 yrs ago and we have put maybe $5K in her. Trying buying a new 2012 32ft power boat for $25K. I'm 100% sure the same will be true for a sail boat as well.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

JulieMor said:


> A few here mentioned Moody. I looked at two that were also in our price range. If they are as well built as some say they are, this may become our boat of choice. Of course, you can never know until you actually step aboard and see how she fits.


Wow... now you are talking. Moody is a nice boat, but not too many in the States. I like the Moody 42, and love her layout. There is one in New England posted in YW. Just too bad that the hull is painted red, a bit offensive to me.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

wingNwing said:


> The years we spent researching and installing exactly the systems we wanted, just helped us bond even more tightly with this boat. (but then, we're admittedly control freaks and would probably always resented someone else's choices LOL.) Bottom line, I think, is that you just have to know yourself.
> 
> And of course, I know nothing better than sailing to give you deep insights into your own character - the good and the bad!


It is nice when you are young and mobil, you have options and you can recover when you make a mistake. But when you are old, time is not on your side. Sailing your own dream boat is not as important as the sailing itself. I would rather buy a sound boat and compromised the insignificant. and go sailing.

Don't get me wrong, I am very handy, from engine rebuilding to carpentry work. But my time has come and gone. Refitting an old boat is just too much.


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## Familycruisers (Dec 15, 2011)

I stole my 42 yr old Westerly Centaur and I LOVE every inch of her. Her bilge keels, spacious interior (for a 26 ft) , sails great in heavy wind, both girls have their own bunk, and is built like a brick @#$* house! We are using the hell out of it and are adding solar and refrigeration and headed south next winter!
Biggest key is go as small as you can be comfortable, and go NoW.


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

rockDAWG said:


> Wow... now you are talking. Moody is a nice boat, but not too many in the States. I like the Moody 42, and love her layout. There is one in New England posted in YW. Just too bad that the hull is painted red, a bit offensive to me.


I know almost nothing about Moody but after looking at a few on Yachtworld, I walked away very impressed. The ones I was looking at were 44's. I think someone said here that Moody hulls are built like Hinkley's?

I learned a lot with my dad's boat. I suppose resurrecting her from the sinking in the murky waters of the Chicago River resulted in the equivalent of a crash course in boat troubleshooting and repair. I think my dad had either lost the fire or had spent a lot more than he ever imagined (I know the boat yard denied they were responsible for the sinking but who paid what, I don't know) because my dad was very patient as I learned how to fix things. Normally, he would have called in a pro.

With what I learned about his boat, I know I don't want major repairs on my list and that means buying a boat that's basically solid. And when I do my own survey, I'll open up every floorboard, every access point and anything else I can find to see how easy or difficult it will be to replace or repair things.

One of the things I liked most about the Sabre 456 was the fact they had the engine compartment open and that it had an equipment room. The salesmen were quick to point out the benefits of easy access to the engine, generator, panelboard, hot water heater, etc. I thought that was a great selling point. That kind of thing is very important to me. Maybe because of my experience with my dad's boat.


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## sneuman (Jan 28, 2003)

Jgbrown said:


> I sorta agree with C&C. I'm formulating a theory that most old boat(and land vehicle dreams) takes two owners. One to fix it up, and one to enjoy the fruits of the labor... next time around I'm going to try to be the 2nd .
> To be fair I've always imagined working at the carnival to be more interesting than wandering around overspending on silly plastic trinkets. The machines at the carnival are COOL.
> So long as you get what you need out of the dream, whatever part of it is yours, I'd say it's a win.
> I'm in the halfway department, I'm halfway through a refit, and I still plan to sail her, but I've swung a bit to CnCs side, some of the magic is gone, I've found myself looking at trawlers even recently... but hopefully I finish the refit before it all runs out. Having spent a lot of time fixing other's boats now, I've learned that many(most?) owners haven't got a bloody clue when it comes to boats, which is fine.
> ...


It's an inaccurate generalization. In the past 12 years, I have done a lot of work on the two keel boats I've owned. The one would have been a complete restoration if it hadn't been for other factors. The one I own now was in the "project" category. I loved working on them both and loved sailing them both. Having said that, I am happy to be now reaching the point on No. 2 that I am more maintaining systems than rebuilding them - it has already paid dividends in more sailing time, something I sorely missed for the first few years of intense work. I have definitely met people who like working on boats more than they like sailing them, and people who hate working on boats but love sailing them.

There's no zero sum game here, but a spectrum, from 1 to 10. On that scale, I'm probably a five. I have known plenty of fives.

I think this either/or is a canard for folks trying to rationalize their extreme proclivities.


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## arja (Aug 9, 2000)

27 yrs ago I became the 5th owner of a 1967 Hinckley Bermuda 40 aft cabin yawl which is based in east greenwich, RI. The prior owners from Huntington, LI, NY were mechanically very capable, but had no idea of what a varnish brush looked like. Knowing Hinckleys, the exterior teak and topsides needed much attention. The hull and rigging and diesel plus electrical system was in good condition. Of course, the 0-100% roller furler became a Harken Mark II, the alcohol stove became a propane 3 burner and oven unit, the non-working auto-pilot became a Raytheon system, gps has surpassed the loran and radar has been added. Sails were replaced once over the last 14 years plus an asymetrical spinnaker and sock were added. 

The Westerbeke 4-107 was dated but the Hurth transmission became the problem. To replace that became a noticable cost which has reasonably led to a new Westerbeke 55, folding prop and rebedding the engine mounts given a different engine configuration. Of course, with the new engine, we then enjoyed a new Balmar 105 charging system, an invertor and updated house and engine batteries, still wet and not gel. I have the standing rigging checked annually and have replaced it once. The running rigging benefits from messenger lines each fall to early spring while the boat itself enjoys being fully emplied of gear each fall with a Fairclough canvas cover and frame so ventilation on the hard is accomplished. Even the Ideal windless, that is original, had a new $35 foot switch installed by me last fall and is going strong. And the deck non-skid has enjoyed new 2 part polymer convering to keep things safe. 

One item I have not yet addressed is the 35+ yo datamarine wind instruments, depth and speed which needs attention. All this being said, starting with a very secure hull, well surveyed, attention to thru-hulls, mechanical, rigging and electrical as well as water systems gives me the ability to enjoy windless to 35 kt conditions using proper safety and sailing techniques. 

So I would start with a solid vessel and a surveyor you know well as well as a trusted broker. Mine was Hank Halsted (now of Northtrop and Johnson in Newport, RI) who had worked as yard manager at Hinckley before moving to brokerage, then look at a number of boats and understand options, wear and tear, and design (tall rig, double head sail, yawl, solid fibergalss decks and hull versus composite versus sandwich), decide what you want and once identified, negotiate hard and see what can also be negotiated/purchased at the time of the sale through the yard. 

We arranged for fixed price work at Hinckley in Southwest Harbor, Me as a part of the after sale contract which really brought the vessel back to her potential. And then prioritize what works and what needs attention now, short term and long term. 

Over the last 27 years she has been a delight, short of a aluminum holding tank that died (plastic is better) especially with a vacuflush using fresh water and not a salt water manual pump head, and the failure of the exhaust riser that gave us a steam bath unexpectedly. Neither was a disaster, although unpleasant.

Most importantly, she still sails like a dream, handles rough weatehr well, is seakindly and will be my first and last boat. Good luck in finding an experienced vessel you can safely and delightfully enjoy for decades, as well.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

JulieMor said:


> It was when, at the boat Annapolis Boat Show this year, I found myself inside the Sabre 456, an absolutely gorgeous boat and probably my favorite there, that I asked myself, "How would you feel if you owned this boat?"
> 
> Outside of being able to own a boat like that, I looked at the boat being my home on water. Surprisingly, I thought something wasn't right (outside of the fact I couldn't afford it ). I then realized I would need to break it in first, give it some experience, some history on the water, before I could feel comfortable on it. But when I think about the older boats I've been on, I never felt this way.
> 
> ...


I own a 1979 AMF PAceship I bought after sitting in the water for five years untouched.
What to know? That yes, rigging will most likely need to all be replaced. That any sails left outside are trash. Any lines will probably need replacing. 
For myself, I had to take the mast out and redo the entire standing and running rigging on my boat. I also had to buy a new main sail.
I pretty much had to rebuild the boat. So, I would not do it all over again. I would buy a boat that was newer and in better condition.

The only REAL benefits of buying an old boat are these: You will learn that boat better than anything. Every nut and bolt will be known to you and all of the boats systems will be well-learned. Also, and this can go one way or the other, but usually it is cheaper to buy and own an older boat as long as you can do a lot of the work on it yourself and there is not engine/core problems.

I bought my boat for $2900. If I had to buy the same boat agbain tommorow I wouldnt pay a dime over $1500. Also, I have put in about $6000 over the past year and change and I am still not done. Though I will be ready for a summer cruise to the Bahamas.

So if I had to offer advice in a nutshell regarding older boats I would say this:
Buyer beware.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

rockDAWG said:


> It is nice when you are young and mobil, you have options and you can recover when you make a mistake. But when you are old, time is not on your side.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I am very handy, from engine rebuilding to carpentry work. But my time has come and gone. Refitting an old boat is just too much.


Don't put a pull date on yourself - they have a nasty habit of coming true.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

There are 'old boats' and then there are 'projects'. A well maintained, well constructed older boat could easily be that 'buy it and sail it away' proposition - in many cases better equipped than any 'new boat' because a lot of gear has been added over the years and the seller never gets full value for that kind of stuff (re-powers, new electronics, canvas, etc etc..) Buy a new boat and you'll end up paying full bubble on top of the purchase price for the 'extras' that typically aren't really options.

If I was shopping with an open budget I'd be looking at some of the newer designs, but even then would prefer a well looked after 3-5 year old boat than one straight out of the factory. Let someone else take the hit on instant depreciation of a new boat and new gear....


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Harborless said:


> The only REAL benefits of buying an old boat are these: You will learn that boat better than anything. Every nut and bolt will be known to you and all of the boats systems will be well-learned. Also, and this can go one way or the other, but usually it is cheaper to buy and own an older boat as long as you can do a lot of the work on it yourself and there is not engine/core problems.


You left out what I regard as the single most significant factor in bringing back an old boat - personal satisfaction. When you look at before & after pictures of what you have done you get a *very* good feeling.

Just a couple of small examples:


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

JulieMor said:


> I know almost nothing about Moody but after looking at a few on Yachtworld, I walked away very impressed. *The ones I was were 44's. * I think someone said here that Moody hulls are built like Hinkley's?
> 
> *I learned a lot with my dad's boat.* I suppose resurrecting her from the sinking in the murky waters of the Chicago River resulted in the equivalent of a crash course in boat troubleshooting and repair. I think my dad had either lost the fire or had spent a lot more than he ever imagined (I know the boat yard denied they were responsible for the sinking but who paid what, I don't know) because my dad was very patient as I learned how to fix things. Normally, he would have called in a pro.
> 
> ...


Moody 44 has the same layout as Moody 42. They both are nice and meet my need.

If my children were younger, getting an old boat for a total refit is perfect. It will give us a lot of time to bond and tech them to be independent. When they were young, they all worked with me with on cars and Jeep. We then took the Jeep to Colorado and Moab every year to do rock crawling (Thus the rockDawg name).

Now they all grew up, they are too busy to chart their own future. Their Daddy's need is secondary......hahaha. This year, daughter had decided to go back to school for her MD degree. I guess my retirement will take another set back to pay for her $80K a year tuition, room and board. She is the most expensive child I have, but I love her so.

If you like engine access, you would like HR and Passport 40. Hallberg Rassy has a walk in engine room, and Passport 40 has their engine in front of the gallery and under the center island.

Do forget to look at the new DuFour 40e, she is fast, and come with a wine locker . With a minimum refit and upgrade, she can be my ticket to the world.

Good luck.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> Don't put a pull date on yourself - they have a nasty habit of coming true.


Hahah..... Only the good dies young. And I will live forever.


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

Faster said:


> but even then would prefer a well looked after 3-5 year old boat than one straight out of the factory. Let someone else take the hit on instant depreciation of a new boat and new gear....


This is certainly a good approach. But unfortunately, the seller always try to unload their boat based on the orignal price plus all the thing thay bought for the boat. It ends up more than a new boat.

A few years ago when the economy collapsed, there were plenty fire sales. There were plenty of good deal. No so much any more.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

rockDAWG said:


> This is certainly a good approach. But unfortunately, the seller always try to unload their boat based on the orignal price plus all the thing thay bought for the boat. It ends up more than a new boat.
> 
> A few years ago when the economy collapsed, there were plenty fire sales. There were plenty of good deal. No so much any more.


I'd have to say the market here has not recovered to that point.. I doubt anyone will actually sell a used boat for more than new unless there's something exceptionally exceptional about it...

Sure the seller will ask a price that offsets his costs... but what it sells for is usually something else, or it sits on the market for ages.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

You bring quite a list of skills to the table Julie....Marry me! I'm happy to find a lady that actually likes to sail, much less one that has the ability and wants to work on the boat!
I couldn't afford a new version of my 40 year old boat, so...New vs. Old is a moot point for me. She was in decent shape when I bought her 7 years ago. Yet, the list of maintenance and improvements I have made is shocking when I review my maintenance log. I certainly couldn't have afforded to pay someone to do them. 
Regarding Surveyors, they are not all created equal. I would get recommendations I trust, and interview the surveyor on the phone before hiring them. Some love boats and are walking encyclopedias, others take a course (or not) and basically walk around the boat with a check list. Accreditation (i.e., SAMS) is good, but isn't the end all, be all either. And of course, you can educate yourself and do a good survey to qualify the boat before you even hire a surveyor. I highly recommend Jim Casey's book "Sailboat Maintenance". Not only have I found it invaluable in maintaining my boat, but it has an excellent section on performing your own survey to qualify (or eliminate) the boat for survey.
I have a strange relationship with my boat. For me, (unlike many) working on her is a necessary evil (I'd much rather be sailing). I would pay someone to work on her, or would have purchased a newer boat that doesn't need so much maintenance if I could afforded it. Having said that, I'm proud of the work I have done and have learned a lot! I am a Carpenter by trade, and have elected to do things to my boat I would never bother to do to my house! Like I said...it's a strange relationship, but I love my boat and have never regretted buying her.


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## emoney (Jun 2, 2010)

I think there's a lot to be said on this topic, and usually it's a lot like politics in that it's difficult to "debate" the issue, because folks on each side of the equation are normally fixed in their beliefs. Having said that, it is important to know that there's no such thing as "saving money" when it comes to buying an old boat and fixing it up. About the only you're truly saving is WHEN you spend the money, not "if" you spend it. And, it's easier for a lot of people to pay-as-you-go, so to speak. Nothing wrong with that principle, but one would be fooling oneself if they believed they were "saving money".

Sometimes, it's better to wait until you've built the kitty a little more. I try and ask myself this question, "Would I buy this boat 20 years from now?" So, now that 40 year old boat has become a 60 year old boat. If everyone here did that, opinions might be swayed. I say this because like it or not, these things are still man-made and that means there's a shelf life to them, effort be damned. The problem is, most people don't take the future into consideration and let their emotions and dreams convince them to overlook logic. How many 1930s or 1940s boat can you think of, amongst the people you can think of that sail? Safe to say not many. Well, those 60s-70s-80s boats are on the way to category, like it or not. May not be a problem if you're in your late 60s or beyond, but for those of us under 50, it's a factor worth considering.

Buy what you can afford, but be wise about it. As much as it seems impossible, try to take the emotion out and let your logically side dictate these decisions. There are far too many "failed dreams" sitting on the road side, so proof is, in fact, in the pudding. If waiting until next year means you buy a boat that needs less work and is ready to sail then, you may very well be a lot better off than buying one today and spending all year getting it into the same condition as the first boat mentioned (and with probably more $$ spent).


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## ehmanta (Sep 12, 2006)

JulieMor said:


> Pam Wall was staying at the same B&B as we were. We got to meet her Friday morning at breakfast. When she said you have to feel some chi with a boat before buying it, I knew what she was talking about. I couldn't feel chi with any of the new boats at the show. I guess I like older boats.


That means we were staying at the same B&B!!!
201 Prince George....
We were the couple from Fredericksburg.....with the Tartan 37


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JulieMor said:


> For those of you who have made the plunge and bought an older boat, what has been your experience? What are the pitfalls? What have you had to pay for and what have you been to fix yourselves? And what boats really hold up that long?


My boat is 34 years old. Bought a couple years ago. Did have a survey done and nothing major was found. Boat has circumnavigated and from past owners reports, has been knocked down (mast in the water) and has seen winds to 80 knots and seas to 40 feet. Boat is solid and as far as I can tell, most of the rig (except for wire), mast, boom, hardware is all original. With little effort the boat would be ready for another circumnavigation.

Since I have had the boat, things done include: replacing all seacocks, hoses, belts, clamps, inpeller, wiring on engine, reglassing some rotted core at the bow cleats and anchor locker hatch, redoing the bilge pumps, installing a dam so that shaft packing leakage does not get to keel bolts, completely rewiring interior. Next on the list is to replace all standing rigging wire and turnbuckles and any questionable rig parts. Also plan to clean rust off engine and repaint. A few years down the road I will repaint deck and topside of hull as well as mast and boom. After that she should be good for 10 years or so without major issues (I hope at least). Also plan to add solent stay or maybe inner forestay with runners to set storm jib and as a back up in case of forestay failure.

Boat has solid glass hull with plywood core deck and lead keel with stainless keel bolts. Mast is oversized masthead rig with single spreader, and forward and aft lowers as well as baby forward stay.

I too look at some of the new boats and say they "look" nice in the pictures, but not for me. I think, if you need to get to say a hose or a wire, how would that be done. These new boats look to be built like a lot of cars today- no way to easily maintain them. But then these boats are not made for someone like me. My newest car is a 1991, do all the work on it myself. These new boats are made for someone with a good cash flow, and for someone with no time to do the work themselves. These people drive a car less than 3 years old (probably a leased car). But then these new boats are what keeps the economy going and keep people employed.


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## imiloa (Mar 17, 2004)

All the talk of total refits and massive repair projects brings to mind the way I approached the purchase of my boat. I bought an 18 year-old boat (10 years ago) that was clearly well-maintained in basically in sail away condition. At the same time I realized that while very sound I would need to begin replacing things. The approach I took (and continue to take) is incremental, prioritizing (safety first always) the items that need or will soon need replacement or upgrade and trying to do the work in the off season as much as possible. (Bottom job, running rigging, thru hulls, countless hoses, head rebuild, etc.) So I sailed for a year with no hot water heater, or a leaky foot pump in the galley - big deal. The point is I sailed. This past season I sailed with the varnish peeling off some of the brightwork on deck and a broken stove - but I sailed. My free time is limited. To me the point is to keep on sailing, keep on sailing...


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## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

Of all the things I've done on a boat the one I don't wish to do again is replace a thru-hull transducer while the boat is in the water. I did that once when we were docked in Ft. Lauderdale.

My dad elected me to be the one to put on the scuba gear and go down with the new transducer. We had already cut the wiring to the old one and removed the locknut. All that was needed was to knock the old one out and fish the wire from the new one through until the new transducer was seated. No problem!

I got into the water. It was murky with visibility only a few feet. I know it's silly but I thought of sharks sneaking up on me.  They didn't. I knocked on the hull, the sign to tell my dad I was ready. Then he started pounding on the old transducer with a rubber mallet. *I thought my eardrums were going to burst!* I held my ears with my hands, no longer ready to feed the wire through. It seemed forever before the old transducer popped out.

Then I heard a muffled sound. My dad was panicking that the water was rushing in and there was no sign of me or the wire. I fumbled around and found the end and he grabbed it. He was pulling so fast I was doing everything I could to make sure it didn't knot. Finally the new transducer was seated and the flooding stopped.

When I got out of the water my head was still pounding. Of course my dad had no idea he almost blew my eardrums out.


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## SayGudday (Jan 5, 2011)

My Triton is over 50 years old and she's solid and reliable despite being raced hard and not loved by the previous owner.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

emoney said:


> there's no such thing as "saving money" when it comes to buying an old boat and fixing it up.


I beg to differ - I've restored a couple of boats for cheaper than what it would have cost to buy what I ended up with. Doing all or nearly all the work yourself and judicious bargain hunting are the keys to doing it successfully. Consignment stores and Craigslist are your best friends when doing it. Buying when it's cheap and/or available, not when you need it helps a lot as well. If you just pay retail "marine" prices for every little thing brand new, no way can you do it.



> How many 1930s or 1940s boat can you think of, amongst the people you can think of that sail? Safe to say not many.


If they had fiberglass boats and aluminium spars back then it would be a very different story methinks.


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## sneuman (Jan 28, 2003)

I agree with SloopB on this.

The key is to find a boat that is not a wreck. There's a sweet spot. But, just like cars, new boats lose value once they are driven (sailed) off the lot.

Just a rough back-of-the-envelope is that a new Jenneau 42DS has lost about a third of its value in the first 5 years. New they are somewhere around $275K and the asking price for a 2007 model is now something like $200K (and probably getting, at best $180K).

Compare that to a 1985 Whitby 42 I saw on Yachtworld for $55K. Probably in sailable shape. Surely needs some work, but even if you're putting $30K into it, you're still way ahead of the game.

Completely different boats? Absolutely. So, that's a caveat. But my feeling is that a 2007 Jenneau 42DS is a lot like a 2007 Toyota Corolla. Will it get you there? Yep. Does anybody seek out a five year old Corolla? Nope. The Whitby, on the other hand is a classic. It's already lost all the value it's going to lose. If you maintain it, you're not going to lose much on the sale - maybe even, God forbid, break even. Twenty years from now someone will still be seeking out a good example of a "classic" Whitby, but in the same time frame, I suspect the Jeanneau 42DS will be long forgotten.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

> Then I heard a muffled sound. My dad was panicking that the water was rushing in and there was no sign of me or the wire. I fumbled around and found the end and he grabbed it. He was pulling so fast I was doing everything I could to make sure it didn't knot. Finally the new transducer was seated and the flooding stopped.
> 
> When I got out of the water my head was still pounding. Of course my dad had no idea he almost blew my eardrums out.- JulieMor


Good visual story.....A Wile E Coyote moment


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## steve77 (Aug 5, 2010)

JulieMor said:


> For those of you who have made the plunge and bought an older boat, what has been your experience? What are the pitfalls? What have you had to pay for and what have you been to fix yourselves? And what boats really hold up that long?


Three years ago I bought a 1966 Pearson Triton. The previous owner had it for 13 years and did some pretty extensive restoration work. I've had no problems with it... Well, none that were not of my own doing 

I recently decided that I wanted something a little bigger so I bought a "newer" boat, a 1986 Catalina. A real "young 'un" at 26...


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## SayGudday (Jan 5, 2011)

steve77 said:


> Three years ago I bought a 1966 Pearson Triton. The previous owner had it for 13 years and did some pretty extensive restoration work. I've had no problems with it... Well, none that were not of my own doing
> 
> I recently decided that I wanted something a little bigger so I bought a "newer" boat, a 1986 Catalina. A real "young 'un" at 26...


My 1960 Triton is structurally solid and I haven't done much to her other than converting her into a liveaboard boat. Had the usual breakages when I sailed her from SF to SD but other than that she's fine.

PS - Hey Steve77, do you know who bought your Triton?


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## steve77 (Aug 5, 2010)

SayGudday said:


> My 1960 Triton is structurally solid and I haven't done much to her other than converting her into a liveaboard boat. Had the usual breakages when I sailed her from SF to SD but other than that she's fine.
> 
> PS - Hey Steve77, do you know who bought your Triton?


I have a ton of old documentation (haven't sold the boat yet) and I'll look through it. I believe I'm the fourth owner, maybe third. Not sure off the top of my head, I'll see what I can find. It is hull #660.

Those Tritons were built to last.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

sneuman said:


> Compare that to a 1985 Whitby 42 I saw on Yachtworld for $55K. Probably in sailable shape. Surely needs some work, but even if you're putting $30K into it, you're still way ahead of the game.


Having surveyed a number Whitby 42's and one that was recently listed for significantly more than 55K, I'd suggest than any Whitby in that price range is going to cost closer to 100k to make right. By "right" I mean functionally, safe and sound, not cosmetically perfect.


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## SayGudday (Jan 5, 2011)

steve77 said:


> I have a ton of old documentation (haven't sold the boat yet) and I'll look through it. I believe I'm the fourth owner, maybe third. Not sure off the top of my head, I'll see what I can find. It is hull #660.
> 
> Those Tritons were built to last.


I'm the fourth owner of #92 and I keep a kind of foto-record of the fleet here Pearson Triton. Would love to add your vessel.


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## SkywalkerII (Feb 20, 2008)

I'm the third and fifth owner of my 1966 Tartan 27. I wouldn't part with her...again.

Long story, but in the end it offers what I'm looking for in a boat. 

It's not the age, it's the quality and the condition.


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## steve77 (Aug 5, 2010)

SayGudday said:


> I'm the fourth owner of #92 and I keep a kind of foto-record of the fleet here Pearson Triton. Would love to add your vessel.


That's a great site, it's nice to see those good old boats being so well cared for. I'd be happy to send you a picture of Gracie, is there a place on your site to do that? Send me a PM if you want to. My Triton was restored by the previous owner who had her for 13 years.

Steve


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## sneuman (Jan 28, 2003)

boatpoker said:


> Having surveyed a number Whitby 42's and one that was recently listed for significantly more than 55K, I'd suggest than any Whitby in that price range is going to cost closer to 100k to make right. By "right" I mean functionally, safe and sound, not cosmetically perfect.


Fair enough. I'm not a surveyor and I was reaching for an analogy. I don't actually know much about Whitbys. My point is simply that the way many production boats are marketed today, with so many variants and so many changes from year to year, we have a tendency to become inured to it all. That's not saying anything about the quality of the boats themselves, which is good to excellent in my opinion.

How many times have you been in a discussion about some modern production boat only to realize that you were talking about the 2002x version and the other person was talking about the 2004z variant - two entirely different boats? It's a marketing culture that's relatively new to boating, I think, in that boats are marketed more like cars. If you've got a 10-year old Beneteau, you aren't the big man on K dock. You envy the guy with last year's model. That churns those boats through the market, which is a very good thing for Beneteau and probably the reason why they are still in business and the folks at Valiant aren't.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

sneuman said:


> ...How many times have you been in a discussion about some modern production boat only to realize that you were talking about the 2002x version and the other person was talking about the 2004z variant - two entirely different boats? It's a marketing culture that's relatively new to boating, I think, in that boats are marketed more like cars. If you've got a 10-year old Beneteau, you aren't the big man on K dock. You envy the guy with last year's model. That churns those boats through the market, which is a very good thing for Beneteau and probably the reason why they are still in business and the folks at Valiant aren't.


I'm not sure what marina you hang out in, but around my way I don't see many people like this. But I hope you are right, because I would love to see more people in a hurry to unload their "obsolete" 10 year old production boats for a bargain. Many of us here depend on those 10 year old boats (and even older ones) for our next upgrade.


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## sneuman (Jan 28, 2003)

TakeFive said:


> I'm not sure what marina you hang out in, but around my way I don't see many people like this. But I hope you are right, because I would love to see more people in a hurry to unload their "obsolete" 10 year old production boats for a bargain. Many of us here depend on those 10 year old boats (and even older ones) for our next upgrade.


I'm talking primarily about the high-end stuff. If you lived in or near Annapolis, you'd see it.


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## Mani Moana (Oct 26, 2012)

Boats before 80' s are usually a lot better than new boat. You seem to be a real do it yourself person and you shouldn't worry for problem such as the rigging, if you feel the need to be replace you can do it and put your fears away... but old boat are way stronger than new boat.


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