# single Mom, single hander, single paycheck.



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Okay. I am seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. My daughter is a senior in H.S. and my son just started. That means only 4 years left of having to live in the high-rent (good school) district. Which leads me to my next address: boat.

I have a good bit of sailing experience (though admittedly I am a bit rusty). I sailed before I walked, cruised New England each summer on my parents' boats (Allied Luders 33 sloop and Frank Kinney Pipe Dream 37 sloop) and did the whole dinghy racing curcuit thing on Blue Jays, Fire Balls, Lightnings, etc. 

That was then This is now: I haven't sailed in the past ten or so years and never really had experience skippering or maintaining a larger boat. I am currently taking Power Squadron courses to get beck into the swing of things, brush up pn navigation and learn about boat systems and am researching which boats would make good coastal and possibly off-shore cruisers.

Here are some of my requirements:
-I have to be able to single hand it.
-I don't have a ton of money to spend.
-I want a good, solid boat that can see me through a storm.

Here are some boats I am considering:
Allied Luders 33
Niagara 35
Rival 34
Sabre 34
Wauquiez Pretorian 35
Dickerson 37

Any thoughts, tips, suggestions?

-Susan


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Way to go Susan .
I have no idea ,but will watch your progress with interest 
Penny


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## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

Curiously in keeping with this site's recent adoption of Good Old Boat articles, the last issue ( I think) had a great article about the Cheoy Lee 32 (beautiful boat) followed by an analysis of three other similar 32-34 foot boats. the article might be of interest to you. Good Luck. My son is off to college in 2 years and I'm seriously considering moving back aboard my Catalina 36. I'm part-timing it now.

Mike


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

After 3 years of looking at liveaboard, singlehanded boats, the Ontario 32 (which is what I bought), always came out on top. So far, I've been very pleased with my choice. I find it easy to singlehand, and plenty roomy inside, as well as having good storage and access to most things. With a 4 1/2 foot draft modified fin keel, it's shoal enough for most places and deep enough to track decently. Though I haven't been out in more than 20 knots of wind, it has felt very stable up to that point, even though I should have tucked a reef.

I had looked at a Niagara 35, and though I was tempted, it just felt a bit big to me. I do like the layout though of the earlier models.

Best of luck,


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## bkrosschell (Sep 4, 2006)

*Sounds like you have a great plan*

Hi Susan,

You may want to consider a Pearson Vanguard. 32.5 feet long, very strong hull and sails well (full keel). I have been living on mine for 6 years. Not a lot of space but an affordable and beautiful boat with a great owners group. You can find one for 15-35K.

Check out:
http://pearsonvanguard.org
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pearsonvanguard/

good luck finding your dream boat,
Brian


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## cranki (Jun 11, 2006)

Susan,

I am in a similar boat (pun intended) My son is in 8th. grade and I am looking at a 5-year timeframe until I can devote much more time to sailing and cruising. 

I was looking for "the boat" in the same range as you. (Well actually 35-40' range) I just recently bought an old Pearson 30. It's a bit smaller than I wanted... It's not exactly a blue water boat, but I could take it to Canada, the Bahamas and down into the Caribbean. I decided to spend less now on the boat, less on maintenance, on dockage and winter storage, etc.

I will sail it here in LIS. Daysails, weekends, 1-week cruises. I will teach my son how to sail and revisit all the local anchorages... Then in 5 years I may get a bigger boat or I may just go with what I've got.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You sound like a good candidate for the Sailnet Singles Scene...Pirate's Booty keeps bugging me to start one! 

As for the boat, I would recommend you get the biggest boat you think you can comfortably sail. A 35 footer for example will give you significant advantages in space and sailability over a 30 footer for example. However, that being said, I really like the Island Packet 30 for a liveaboard. I believe you can find one in the 50-60K range. They are solid and well designed boats. Plus, they hold their value...


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I would suggest that you perhaps add the Bristol 34, the Tartan 30, and the Tartan 34. All of them sail very well and should be in a similar price range to the others on your list. If I had to pick just one boat on the list of choices presented so far, I would really lean towards the Wauquiez Pretorian 35. Great boats, well built. There were a couple different interior layouts, one of which was a bit weird but one that was about as nice a single-hander layout as you could find in a 35 footer. 

All of these are pretty brawny boats to handle single-handed, depending as they do on very large genoas in moderate conditions and as older designs, were built with undersized winches by modern standards. No matter which you end up with, unless a prior owner has done so, you should be sure to budget for changes to the deck hardware to better accommodate single-handing. 

Perhaps from a different angle, you might try to find a fractional rigged boat (perhaps something like a Dehler Optima 101 for example) rather than a masthead sloop. I do a lot of single-handing and I find that the smaller headsails and ease of shifting gears on a fractional rig makes them a lot more convenient short handed in changeable conditions. 

Just a thought.
Good luck,

Jeff


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

...and Jeff H. would be disappointed if I didn't chime in with:
Tayana 37, Pacific Seacraft 34, Cape Dory 36, Westsail32 and Hans Christian 33. 
All will not get you there as fast...but will get you there in safety and comfort in any weather. 
(P.S. this is not meant to start a fight club over this already beaten to death subject!)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Yeah, cut it out Camaderie. Actually, I like any of the boats you guys suggested. I always love the lines of the Cape Dory and the Bristols.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

No fight from me Camaradie. We each come at sailing from our own directions, and I understand that in most thing sailing there is no one single universally correct answer. I am focusing a bit more on the "good coastal cruiser' part and you are perhaps focusing a bit more on the 'possibly offshore cruiser' part. I think the diversity of opinion should be helpful in showing that there is a spectrum of choices. With more information from the original poster we each might move to a more central position. 

The concern that I might have with the boats on your list is thier comparatively high price relative to the boats on Susan's original list. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Mike_S (Dec 23, 2004)

Hey Jeff (and others),
The suggestion about the fractional rig is a good one. Is there a resource on the 'net somewhere where one can search based on things like rig configuration (full, fractional, cutter, split, ...), hull configuration (fin keel, full, rudder type), deck configuration (aft/center cockpit), interior configuration (# staterooms, galley, heads), auxilliary configuration (gas, diesel)? In addition to the normal LOA, Year, Builder, Price, Location

Cheers,
Mike


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi everyone, 
Thanks for all of the great feedback. I guess I am leaning more toward the offshore capability, as I'd rather have too much boat than not enough. My only concern with some of the heavier, full-keel boats is that I might not be able to maneuver them well. 

I have been considering a Cape Dory and should have added it to my list. I think the Pac Sea is out of price range. The Tayana is also very nice, but looks like it might require too much maintenance due to all of the wood. 

The Pearson looks good, and if I were going to keep to the coast, I'd consider it. I really can't afford to buy 2 large boats over the next 4 years, so I need to go straight to the right one. The Tartan also looked good as a coastal cruiser, but I am not sure about the keel/centerboard that seems to be on most in the size/price range I am looking. I think I'd rather have a fin keel and a skeg-hung rudder or full keel.

As far as the singles thread -- I'd rather not be a single-hander, so I second that suggestion  It's very hard to find someone who would be willing to give up life on land.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Pretty much all of these boats are suitable for offshore use. None of them within your apparent price range are likely to be set up for distance cruising or single-handing without some modification, in some cases a huge amount of modification. This is especially true of the older designs like the Vanguard which can be single-handed (as a kid I would single-hand my family's Vanguard but it was brutal) but which are nearly imposible to make into an easily handled offshore capable single-hander. 

The thing about the dedicated offshore type boats on the list is that they are often under-canvassed which means that you either end up losing a lot of sailing days or using extremely large overlapping light air sails, which in turn are very difficult to single-hand as compared to a more normal sailplan. 

I would not rule out a keel centerboard boat like the Tartan 34. These boats are really a shoal draft fin keel with skeg hung rudder. The centerboard really helps upwind, and allows very precise adjustment if the balance of the sail plan, nearly eliminating weather helm and making these boats easier to handle and less tiring to steer manually, or under vane or autopilot. 

Jeff


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

GreenBoat...I don't think any of the boats I listed would be too much to hadle at sea. The additional weight and long keels give them directional stability and a sea kindly motion. They are all easily steered by a wind vane as well. Lighter is not better at sea or easier to handle IMHO and of course opinions vary on this...but I would refer you to a current discussion on the SSCA bulliten board. In this thread the writer describes a recent return trip from Hawaii on a Cal40...a well built but light boat and reaffirms his decision to buy a Hans Christian. 
Note that the Cape Dory is also available in a 32 footer if size is a concern. The Tayana does have a lot of wood...but some have no teak decks or removed teak decks that have been re-done in glass, so just keep an eye on Yacht-world if you otherwise like the boat.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

As a counterpoint to Cam's comments;

On the other hand, in boats of the size that we are discussing, full keels offer minimally more directional stability than a well balanced fin keel skeg hung rudder boat, (especially since the bulk of tracking ability in this size range comes from the dynamic balance of sails to keel profile, rather than from the length of the keel) and that directional stability comes at the price of much higher helm loads, which can really wear you down and in my experience actually make it harder to use a vane steering rig.

That so-called seakindly motion comes at the price of larger roll angles which make it harder to move about in a seaway and for some people are more likely to produce seasickness. 

With regards to your comments on lighter boats, I would suggest that displacement is a better way to size a boat than length. By that I mean that ease of handling, carrying capacity, accomodation space, and maintenance costs, etc are pretty much directly proportionate to displacement. The heavier the boat, the bigger the sails and the harder the boat is to handle. 

For any given person, there is a displacement that they can comfortably handle, more than than that amount becomes burdensome. The traditional rule of thumb for offshore capable distance cruising boats was 2 1/2 to 5 long tons per person (roughly 5500 to 11000 lbs). In a general sense, better winches, sail handling gear, deck layouts and ground tackle handling gear have stretched that range a bit, of course there are people whose athletic ability allow them to be comfortable handling much more than that. 

Within reason, for any given displacement, and with similar weight distributions (for example ballast to weight ratio) the longer the waterline the easier the boat will be to handle, the more seaworthy it will be, the more comfortable its motion, the more it will be able to carry, and faster it will sail. 

In other words, if we compare that Cal 40 to the Hans Christian 33, the Hans Christian 33 is 3,000 lbs heaver, has a lower ballast to displacement, carries nearly 150 square feet of sail area, on a shorter waterline with a greater beam. In other words despite its greater drag (and therefore the need for more sail area) the Hans Christian has less ballast stability and depends on more form stability than the longer Cal 40. The lower sail area, slower roll motion (less form stability) and higher stability should actually make the Cal 40 an easier boat to handle, and a more comfortable boat than the smaller but heavier Hans Christian 33. 

In the case of the Cal 40 there is some loss of motion comfort that comes from pitching due to its short waterline length relative to its overall length. To continue this discussion, a boat like the Tartan 37 which has the same displacement as the Cal 40 but a longer waterline than either of the other two and a shorter length on deck, and significantly higher ballast than either of the other two, should offer even greater stability, motion comfort and ease of handling (except that the big jib, small mainsail rig proportion of the Tartan 37 doesn't make them as easy to handle as a boat with a more moderate rig proportion) compared to the other two boats. 

And just to put all of this in proportion a boat like the J-40 (J's cruising series) has a longer waterline and way higher ballast ratio than any of these boats, similar waterline beam (greater beam at the deck though), a displacement higher than the Cal and lower than the Hans Christian, and an easier sail plan proportion to handle, should be the easiest of the bunch to handle, offer the most motion comfort, and probably offers the most seaworthiness of the bunch. 

BTW I realize all of these are bigger and more expensive boats than Greenboat is looking for. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*P30*

Hi Susan --

My window is closer to yours -- my older son just went to college, my younger is a junior in high school. With my business, I can be anywhere, so I'm starting to think seriously about where to go. But as for a boat, all the suggestions you've gotten sound like terrific boats. You could also check out John Kretchmer's Used Boat Guide (Sheridan House, 2002, ISBN 1-57409-150-6) for some good ratings -- he has several idices that are good to know (safety, market value, durability, etc). While all the suggestions are good, I don't know that you can get most of them in your price range. No matter how good the boat's condition is, you should keep a sizeable reserve for inevitable maintenance expenses -- so I would figure a maximum you can afford, and shoot for at most 70% of that.No matter how great the boat is, it's useless if you can't afford a new alternator or get the roller fixed. I realize this sounds obvious, but it's easy to start thinking that extra 4 or 5 grand when you are looking at boats. I deal in violins, and I see it happen all the time -- my most difficult job is trying to keep clients from spending too much upfront.

I got a Pearson 30 this past spring up in Boston, and sailed it down to Greenwich, where I keep it. A great boat;fast and responsive, but good in heavy weather. The latter I discovered when I got caught in a ferocious gale the last day -- the worst weather I've ever been in, and I've sailed all over for 40 years now. I like the size -- plenty of room down below, but not so far to the foredeck that you can't get back to the cockpit in a hurry.

Prioritize what matters, and you will be able to get something at a surprisingly good price. Engine, prop, decks, hull, rigging -- they are what count, but price is driven by appearance; wood and so on. Whatever you think is important, that's fine -- but make a list before you even start looking. It will help keep you grounded when you see the gorgeous teak and chart table etc.

Anyway -- good luck!! And welcome back to the water -- Jim


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## boatmonkey (Jul 9, 2007)

I chimed in to another post about the Dehler 101 I just bought and am loving a lot.

Lots of quality space below for longer crusing (can sleep 7!) with a great sized cockpit because hey, that's where you sail right? It's fast enough for club racing (IOR design of the 70's-80's). I sail single handed at times and find the boat quite easy to handle given the fractional rig and placement of everything needed at the tiller. I did replace the mid cockpit traveler with a Harken system but other than that, it's a great sailing in it's stock config.

if you have 30K or so to spend, you'll get a lot of boat for your money.

Happy to post pics if you'd like to see more of her.


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## knotaloud (Jul 6, 2007)

These old threads are great, thanks for bring them back for everyone to enjoy again, kinda like mom's leftover meatloaf


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

I am curious to know what happened. I sent her a PM.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Update*

Well, nothing has happened in the way of the "big boat." I did, however, get my hands on a old Laser and have been having a blast with that. It's getting me hooked into the sailing scene here in NC, and I don't need to talk one of my less-than-enthusiastic teens into crewing in order to go out.

I figured if I can't get a big boat for a couple more years any way, I might as well get one I can sail on the lakes nearby. Truth is though, I am an open-water sailor and have been VERY frustrated on the little puddles -- as I like to call the lakes around here. So, I trailered the Laser out to the coast last weekend. Went to New Bern, Oriental and Beaufort this past weekend. Had lots of BIG wind and FUN, got beat up out there and met some fellow Laser and big boat sailors in Oriental, which was by far my favorite place to put in.

I also took a systems maintenence calss through the local power squadron, which was helpful.

As far as the decision-making process on the big boats goes, I have time and have been looking at other models like Tartans and Bristols. I like the classic lines and reputation of these -- and I might be able to afford an older one. I will look at the Dehler as suggested.

Hey, has anyone really started a singles sailnet site? I'd rather not be a single hander if I can help it.  Any other reluctant single handers out there?

Susan


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Susan-

Welcome back to Sailnet. Glad to hear you've gotten a boat, even a little Laser is better than being boatless. Keep us posted on your plans and when you're ready to purchase, we'll give you whatever advice we can. 

SD.


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## pigslo (Nov 22, 2004)

Yes, my good friend SD contributes more than anyone on this board and always (well almost always) has good ideas. Just write the question on a bone and throw it out there and he will bring you back an answer. Sailing dog is a retreiver for sure. 
pigslo


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## rossir (Aug 11, 2006)

Susan:

I remember you thread from last yer, as it was about the time that I too decided to explore the possibility of voyaging. I too have 2 children - I guess the same age as your, as my youngest started high school this past fall. 

I had not had any experience in reall sailing prior to that time, and have very little now - a bit of crewing in a race series here, and I do own a bluejay. I too have taken advantage of the power squadron's courses and research as much on the web as I can.

My plan is to be in a poistion to go when my youngest goes to college, and I certainly believe that I can get there. I am pretty handy, self-sufficient and I have a great desire particularly to explore other cultures. So much about the voyaging lifestyle appeals to me that I cannot imagine this not coming to realization for me.

Anyway, I just thought that you could use the encouragement. I too am in the boat of being a singlehander.

Rick


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi Susan, I am just down the road from you... in Raleigh. I will be buying my first boat this winter/spring. I am a complete newbie, I will be taking my first lessons in a few weeks actually. 

I will be starting out with a small boat, a 22'-26' probably, sailing it a few years and then moving up to a bigger boat. I am sure I would love to have someone experienced to sail with me just to point out how many mistakes I am making!!  So, if you are interested..... shoot me a line sometime between now and then!


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Susan - As I suggested the Ontario 32, I can also offer you an up close look at one anytime over the next few weeks. Including a sail, if you would like. I'm currently at Belhaven, but will be coming back to the Oriental area sometime next week for some work at Deatons the week of the 23rd. If you'd care to have a look and/or sail, just let me know.


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## rakski (Jul 19, 2002)

*Starter boat vs final boat*

Hats off to you Susan. I wish I could get my daughters as interested in sailing as you are.

Since you've been out of the sailing scene for a while my suggestion would be to start smaller and use this smaller boat as an assessment tool for your final choice.

I've owned a Morgan 30//2 since 1979 and like it but if I could rewind I should have bought a Catalina. A Catalina 30 would have been a good choice for a couple of reasons.

1. There's a lot of them around so picking up a used one would be easy.
2. They still are very popular and the company is still in business, getting replacement parts should be reasonable. 
3. THey are good sailing boat and with the right equipment decent racers. Our local across Lake Michigan race (Queen's Cup www.ssyc.org) was won some years ago by a Catalina 30 (Rag Doll). I believe that the shortest boat to ever win...most of the winners have been 40'+ in length.
4. With a lot of them around there are a lot of information sources avaiable via the owners and you know all sailors are helpful.
5. Because they are popular, resale is easier.

If I had to pick one for you to start with I would recommend a 27' or 30' Catalina.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I know some local folks that are racing Lasers (low key unnoficial races) at Jordan. PM if you want more info...



GreenBoat said:


> Well, nothing has happened in the way of the "big boat." I did, however, get my hands on a old Laser and have been having a blast with that. It's getting me hooked into the sailing scene here in NC, and I don't need to talk one of my less-than-enthusiastic teens into crewing in order to go out.
> 
> I figured if I can't get a big boat for a couple more years any way, I might as well get one I can sail on the lakes nearby. Truth is though, I am an open-water sailor and have been VERY frustrated on the little puddles -- as I like to call the lakes around here. So, I trailered the Laser out to the coast last weekend. Went to New Bern, Oriental and Beaufort this past weekend. Had lots of BIG wind and FUN, got beat up out there and met some fellow Laser and big boat sailors in Oriental, which was by far my favorite place to put in.
> 
> ...


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Good to see you sticking with the dream. If you like open water, as in coastal salty open water, I would recommend a different boat than if you wished to go offshore. If you want to voyage...I'd have one range of suggestions, but if you wish to merely club race or weekend gunkhole or even liveaboard, I'd have others.

PBZeer's suggestion of an Ontario 32 is one of the few boats I would recommend that is good for all of the above for a single-hander. I personally think that 32-33 feet is around the sweet spot for single-handing, because it's big enough to take the real sea, but small enough to work without getting hurt or overwhelmed. A Niagara 35 is good, but they can get pricey because Canadians are huge fans of them and our dollar parity now means we can scoop up American-owned boats at lower-than-local prices.

A Bristol or a Pearson or a Tartan are all good choices for coastal, up to "rough, near-gale coastal". But if you are going offshore, check out the Contessa 32 or even the dreaded Westsail 32...dreaded because they are frankly pokey boats in light air, but they are very difficult to kill (see "A Perfect Storm"...the real story!) and they are "get you home" boats.


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## captainheidi (Nov 13, 2011)

GreenBoat said:


> Okay. I am seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. My daughter is a senior in H.S. and my son just started. That means only 4 years left of having to live in the high-rent (good school) district. Which leads me to my next address: boat.
> 
> I have a good bit of sailing experience (though admittedly I am a bit rusty). I sailed before I walked, cruised New England each summer on my parents' boats (Allied Luders 33 sloop and Frank Kinney Pipe Dream 37 sloop) and did the whole dinghy racing curcuit thing on Blue Jays, Fire Balls, Lightnings, etc.
> 
> ...


 Hmm, you really want a boat that large for single handing? I have a beautiful Islander 36 that I am selling precisely because it is difficult to single hand- unless I am to put in a lot of $$ to set her up for single handing. I am choosing a heavier small cruiser in the 20' range.

Regards,
Heidi


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

captainheidi said:


> Hmm, you really want a boat that large for single handing? I have a beautiful Islander 36 that I am selling precisely because it is difficult to single hand- unless I am to put in a lot of $$ to set her up for single handing. I am choosing a heavier small cruiser in the 20' range.
> 
> Regards,
> Heidi


If you take a peek at the date on the posts, you will see that the OP hasn't been here in 4 years.

It would be interesting to know if she ever followed through.


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## Strait Shooter (Sep 28, 2011)

Peoples perception of what size sailboat can be efficiently sailed by ones self really differs a lot.

I now sail a 38' by myself and don't find it at all difficult, but according to some folks its way to big.

Ain't individuality grand?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Heidi, really? Sad you have to sell her. Seems to me you can single hand her if you have some logically applied skills that will offset the need for muscle.


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## Charlie B (Sep 30, 2011)

I've been following this thread because I too plan to move up from my 25 footer someday and will be looking for all the boat I can handle alone. 

What I don't understand is, just what in particular is so strenuous that it would be the determining factor, or breaking point? Is it the winching of the jibs? Because I have never used my winch handles for mine (granted my boats not large). I do winch the halyards up hard with a handle, but the head sails I prefer to luff and after taking in what I want quickly by hand (with a few turns around the winch), I veer off to refill them. If I'm beating to windward, I just tuck the jib inside the stanchions and steer to trim, getting me as close to the wind as possible. The only reason I can think of to winch in a full sail, would be to be able to stay on course, while someone else is at the helm. But it's a matter of seconds to steer into the wind and back, so it really doesn't slow me down much at all. There must be something I'm missing here.

I love the idea of a yawl or ketch set up for a larger boat, keeping the sails smaller and allowing so much balance control. Of course in that case, I would have to do the "handleless" winching twice! Maybe at that point self steering would be a better option?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

It's more about timing with the head sail Charlie, but you will need winches on a larger boat. Pulling on the jib sheets is a quick way to get tired and sore. (this I know)
Raising the main on my boat isn't that difficult but I have a LARGE turning block at the mast base which seems to help.. small wheeled blocks really add effort instead of reducing it (imho)

A wheel or tiller lock is a big help! auto pilot is a real big plus too!


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## mdbee (May 2, 2007)

4 year old post...


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## Charlie B (Sep 30, 2011)

"Pulling on the jib sheets is a quick way to get tired and sore."

Even when luffing? 

Now the tiller lock idea I like and I should get that going next year. But what would you say is the main reason a boat would be too large to single hand? That's the part I just can't get my head around. I've often thought anything over forty feet would be too much, but why? If I could handle a forty footer, why not a forty five? I know eventually the sail size alone would be overwhelming, but I just don't know how to figure the breaking point.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

A 32 I can manhandle, like if the main and boom are disagreeing with me and they want to go port while I want them to go starboard while we're flaking the sail and a gust zips it off.

A 36 or 38....I'd have to be faster and smarter than the boat, because I'm just not strong enough to use brute force on it anymore. Sometimes, sure, but sometimes, not. Wouldn't stop me from taking one out if that's what I wanted to do, but sometimes you just want to know that if all else fails, you can pick the damn thing up and carry it home.

Rigging, cockpit layout, balance, reliable engine, all would affect the choice. Kinda reminds me of punching out the horse in "Blazing Saddles" though.<G>


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

MDbee yes we know. but we were responding to captain Heidi


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## Strait Shooter (Sep 28, 2011)

The loads are higher on everything, that's the limiting factor. I went from 26' to 38' and there is no throwing the boom over on a jibe, or NOT using winches on jib sheets anymore. 

Not letting the boat get ahead of you is key. Having a good rigging layout is another, as is an autopilot or lashing the tiller if you must. It IS a tad different but you can definitely compensate if you do it on a mid twenties boat. There's a learning curve, but not to bad.

I'm not sure what the ultimate barrier limiting factor is or would be. I guess if you had the money just about anything is possible.


John


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

One of the limiters is whether you can handle the weight of the sails. For single handling, you really need a roller furler for the jib and either lazy jacks or a furler for the main. However, the real issue is when they tear or jam or you need them down for an emergency. At best, we can only drop ours and lash them to the deck or lifelines. Fortunately, we have room between the boom and cabin top to get the main down, but not all do. It takes two people and calm winds at the dock to properly flake and fold them.


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## Charlie B (Sep 30, 2011)

Thanks John and Minnew,
All great ideas to consider! I sure can relate to throwing the jib over by hand when jibing, as I hate surprises! I understand a larger boat would require more thinking and less muscle. But as I get older, I assume will be a natural progression. 

So to sum up thus far; would I be dreaming to think in terms of single handing a forty five footer with roller furling, lazy jacks and auto pilot? Would I be smarter to go with a yawl rig? I'm still thinking the limit might be a forty footer.

By the way, while I'm only dreaming after all, lets make it a Hinckley!

One last thing; Why are some people so concerned about the age of the post? If we are enjoying it, does it matter if it's twenty years old?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I know a guy that single hands a 44 ft boat, it's all in how she's rigged and how proficient the skipper is. Find one you like and see if they will let you take the sails down by yourself on the dock. That will answer your question.

As far as replying to old posts, it's generally advised to start a new one if you would like to discuss a topic. However, anyone that wants to resurrect an old thread that contains information relevant to the discussion they would like to have is fine by me, but most seem to be done by new members by accident. If intentional, one can put a link to the old thread in your new one.

You will note, however, that this thread was resurrected by answering someone's question that was asked 4 years ago. That is a common newbie mistake, as they arent used to seeing when the post was made to know that their answer isn't relevant to the inquirer anymore. In fact, the original poster, whose question was being answered, hasn't even been signed on the forum since Dec '07.

I would agree that some get their shorts too tied up in a knot over this, so hopefully, those of us that point it out do so in a constructive tone. This supposed to be a fun place.

Edit: I coincidentally stumbled upon an example. Here is a new member's first post ever, responding to a request for deliver crew from 18 months ago. That ship has sailed.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/crew-wanted/63778-delivery-skipper-wanted.html


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## Charlie B (Sep 30, 2011)

I'd love to talk with the guy on the 44 footer! 

But you have brought up a very good idea to try handling the sails first, if possible.

Do you ever single hand yours? Is it a 54' Jeanneau?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Charlie B said:


> I'd love to talk with the guy on the 44 footer!
> 
> But you have brought up a very good idea to try handling the sails first, if possible.
> 
> Do you ever single hand yours? Is it a 54' Jeanneau?


Yes, it is a 54' Jeanneau. I have single handed my boat, sort of. For giggles and practice, I've taken her out, set sails, tacked, jibed, etc. However, my wife has actually been aboard and there, for when I've had enough. We've practiced single handed emergencies, but the best we would do with jammed or ripped sails is drop them and lash to the deck. We have every line coming to the cockpit, but the cockpit is fairly large, so getting from the helm to the lines coming through the cabin top organizers is an exercise. The autopilot better be operative. Both the main and head sail are each on furlers as well.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Bene505 hangs out here at times. He singles his 50' boat.

The dude is very cool. He didn't even get mad when I drank all his booze.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Zanshin is another on here that SH's his boats. He should be taking delivery of a jeanneau 57 any day if he has not already. His was in Annapolis as the sales boat.

Marty


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## montenido (May 14, 2008)

I realize that the original post was years ago, but now that you are discussing the limits to single-handing, I thought I would chime in. I started with a Catalina 30 as my first boat, which I single-handed all the time with no problems. My current love is a Catalina 36. She is a lot more boat than the C30 was, but still managable single-handing. I do have a headsail furler, Dutchman reefing on the main, an auto-pilot, and all lines led to the cockpit, so she is set up for it.
Anyway, the key to single-handing any boat is to do it, a lot, in all conditions. I get better each time I take her out and have been in 35+ winds by myself. I know, probably not too smart, but definitely doable. The problem that I found with big winds was when I wanted to furl the sails. Much more work, but man did she fly! 

Cheers, Bill


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## captainheidi (Nov 13, 2011)

deniseO30 said:


> MDbee yes we know. but we were responding to captain Heidi


Yes, now I know.  I'll just be over here..........


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## captainheidi (Nov 13, 2011)

I COULD single hand my boat. However, the being fast and thinking ahead thing is not very relaxing. Because you have to think of everything...and ahead, prepare for the worst etc. I single handed a 40' boat. It had power winches, self tacking jib, in-boom furling, autohelm with a little remote you can wear around your neck to offset rudder angle if needed. I felt damned near relaxed on that boat.....except coming into the slip. My boat does not come with these "labor saving" devices. I do have Autohelm. But If i have to dump the main in a sudden 42 kt gust then I have to get my leg around the wheel (or jump up on the cockpit seats) and move forward to the mainsheet in a cam cleat near the companionway. When I single hand a small boat, it just plain feels manageable.


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## Charlie B (Sep 30, 2011)

Thank you all for such wonderful responses! 

I am starting to get it. (I think) You can handle a lot, but how badly do you want to? 

In the future, I plan to do some winter live-a-board sailing, if all goes well. I'll have my wife with me to help take the helm, but I hate to count on her always being able, as she is handicapped. The trade off in more work for a larger boat seems like a trade I'd be up for. So at this point, I'm still dreaming of a 40' Hinckley. (maybe a bit larger)

In the meantime, I couldn't be happier with my Morgan 24/25. (she swells to 25', when she wants to impress the other boats)

Thanks again!


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

I've got one word for you, anchoring.
Your single handling your 45 foot boat the engine dies you have no windless and you have to strike the sails and drop the hook.
Your going to be busy.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Dare I say, if your heart is set on living aboard a Hinckley, you need a bigger version to accommodate your required living space? I love the lines and quality of a Hinkley (and it's logo gets attention at the marina), however, maximizing living quarters per foot of LOA is not their value proposition.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

I think we should keep this post going until the OP gets back from her 4 year cruise.

I my opinion, the limit to single handing a large boat is what will happen when things go wrong. Can you hold the bow line when wind starts blowing her off the pier? Can you get a couple hundred feet of chain off the bottom if the windlass fails? Can you get that huge genoa down in a sudden squal? Realize, this really is just opinion. Some feel uncomfortable relying on the mechanical things things that surround us on big sailboats. Some are more worried about the large sea in a small boat. It is all priorities.


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## williamkiester (Aug 25, 2010)

Dear Susan,

I just bought an Allied Luders 33. I think that could be a great boat for you, especially if you are already familiar with it. I love ours, and feel good about singlehanding it. I have a partner in the boat, and I can say for sure that that made a huge difference when we hauled the boat. Two people flushing the systems, cleaning up, and covering it and worrying about it worked well and made me more comfortable that I had all my bases covered. Also expensive repairs get 50% cheaper. 

The Luders is pokey, but easy to handle, rock solid and they can be surprisingly affordable. In fact, you should look at the all the Allied boats, which tend to run on the cheaper side of things but are still very able. I see Seawinds for under $30k (I don't know much about them).

My partner, who is saltier than I, says, the key to a good partnership is not sailing with your partner. We divide up the time and when it's your turn with the boat, you own the boat. 

Also if you think you will be singlehanding a lot, get a good auto pilot. I use that much more than I thought I would, even with crew aboard. But it's great for running up and setting the sails or untangling a situation if there's a problem. Good luck.


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## JimPendoley (Jan 17, 2005)

*single Mom, Single Hander Single Paycheck*

So, I'll chime in 'cause I just got back from a little single handed cruise that highlighted for me the virtues of "go small go now". I live aboard a much modified Pearson Vanguard (Insulated above the waterline, refrigeration, solar, furler and a few other upgrades).

Its winter sailing season here in New England, so I went out in twenty five knots of breeze and cruised to a barrier beach and hung for a couple of days. Needed one reef in the main and then the helm was well balanced. The estuary has a very shallow bar-went aground oh...fifteen times trying to bump my way out on a rising tide-full keel kept me upright-fin would have been uhmmm-problematic. In my boat it was a gentle thump, thump thump all the way out. I don't have a windlass yet, setting and raising anchor is so much easier on a thirty two footer. The autopilot draws little power and its oversized for the boat-but still the least expensive one the manufacturer sells.
When problems arise on my boat at sea the maxim "little boat, little problems" seems to apply. I've single handed all along the New England Coast and many who have gone MUCH further in these little boats. For those of us on tight budgets and able to do the necessary work ourselver\s (I actually enjoy doing the work on my boat) they can be a viable albeit anachronistic approach to getting out there.
Just one guys opinion.
Jim


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## Charlie B (Sep 30, 2011)

Minnew,
Your Hinckley thought is a very good one. But it makes me think of a woman comparison. Would you rather have one that's a great cook or incredibly sexy? I don't know about you, but I'd eat Pop Tarts for "sexy". 

Barquito,
I'm with you on keeping the post going. We should track down the original poster and get her back here to face to lot of us!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Charlie B said:


> Minnew,
> Your Hinckley thought is a very good one. But it makes me think of a woman comparison. Would you rather have one that's a great cook or incredibly sexy? I don't know about you, but I'd eat Pop Tarts for "sexy".


There are sexy women who can cook. Don't settle.


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## Charlie B (Sep 30, 2011)

I know, I am very lucky to have married one! Plus she's "fair"!


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## petmac (Feb 27, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Dare I say, if your heart is set on living aboard a Hinckley, you need a bigger version to accommodate your required living space? I love the lines and quality of a Hinkley (and it's logo gets attention at the marina), however, maximizing living quarters per foot of LOA is not their value proposition.


How much space does one need ?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

petmac said:


> How much space does one need ?


Doesn't matter to the point. Whatever you need, big or small, a Hinckley is typically going to require more LOA than other designs to get it.


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## Charlie B (Sep 30, 2011)

What also would matter would be that my wife and I would be the only ones aboard. But, I hear you and I do understand that most boats of the same length would offer more room. Still, I think it's worth the trade, for all that elegance!


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## Calmwater (Aug 5, 2018)

TSOJOURNER said:


> Okay. I am seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. My daughter is a senior in H.S. and my son just started. That means only 4 years left of having to live in the high-rent (good school) district. Which leads me to my next address: boat.
> 
> I have a good bit of sailing experience (though admittedly I am a bit rusty). I sailed before I walked, cruised New England each summer on my parents' boats (Allied Luders 33 sloop and Frank Kinney Pipe Dream 37 sloop) and did the whole dinghy racing curcuit thing on Blue Jays, Fire Balls, Lightnings, etc.
> 
> ...


Susan,
These are all good boats for the purpose described. Personally I would have the Niagara and Sabre and also Tartan at the top of the list. The budget is the big question. 
Boats featured with means for short handed crew (for example, in mast/boom main furler) cost more. A well (proven) maintained boat of these models may cost twice or more of the average in size and age. While I bought over the years good core boats and few also with known long term neglect in maintenance - at an attractive price, I learned again and again that a serious outfitting can easily cost even more than getting the best equipped and maintained boat available. 
Guess you want to mostly sail and enjoy the boat and minimise the project involved - the realistic budget is the key.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Calm, that post was from over a decade ago and there is something very odd about that screen name. I’d never seen it before the software conversation a year or two back and I posted in this thread back then. It’s also the screen name that has a bunch of automated news feeds. No idea who we are theoretically replying to.


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