# Production Boat Liveaboard + Costal Cruiser + Occasional Ocean Passage (Beneteau 50+)



## pureenergy (Mar 29, 2015)

Hello,

I trust this note finds you all well and you're having a nice weekend! This forum has been a great resource and I've enjoyed the posts that I've read thus far, thank you for the contribution.

With current curiosity piqued, I'm starting to lay out the beginnings of a concrete plan that I'd like feedback on based on your experience. 

A quick background is that I'm in my late 20s and looking to adventure cruise for an extended (somewhat open ended) period of time. Ideally, I'd like to push off and cruise for 3-6 months, take a break for a month then get back onboard and cruise for another 3-6 months... maybe doing this 2-4 times for a few years or more. I have no real time constraints and may fly back/forth for obligations should they arise. Some of the goals for the adventure are going with the flow, exploring different parts of the world including the Mediterranean and learning more about different cultures.

My experience sailing is somewhat amateur. I've been sailing regularly for 5 years, racing on a weekly basis for a few of those years - sometimes more often during warm months. I've been through a few structured courses (when I first began) as well. 14' Lido is what I learned on (a blast), then 30' Shields followed by bareboat certification, etc. In addition to courses, I have raced single handed one design boats and crewed on a team (bowman) of a 33' Shumacher-Design Synergy 1000 boat for a few years. I still join that boat a dozen times per year. Recently, I have been lucky enough to crew a Volvo Ocean 60' (VO60). I enjoy learning that boat and pushing the limits. 

It seems there has been much debate about production boats and their ability to blue water sail. If anyone has valuable opinions that are backed with experience, I'd be glad to hear it. Let's stay on topic and try to stick with informed opinions if possible. 

Some of the things I'd like to achieve while picking a boat and planning this adventure include maintaining a similar quality of life as I have on land. This means high quality (organic) food, some network connectivity and the space to spread out a bit on the boat. At the same time, I'd like to keep it simple and clean, packing my whole life on the boat (I regularly live in 500-600 square feet). I'll be traveling with one lady and potentially 2 additional at some point. The provisions on the boat should be made to accommodate 2-3 comfortably. The lady assures me that she can dehydrate organic food and prepare amazing dishes that last up to two weeks during passages. Apparently a few days of prepping and making food before pushing off will set us up for a few weeks. Stoked on that! 

For budget, I'm beginning the outline now. I'm going to leverage the boat as financing terms are favorable from what I've read. If interest rates are less than half of other investments where cash can be placed, the boat will be leveraged.

Two ideas I would like to consider regarding budget:

- cost of living while at port (on average, around the Mediterranean, Micronesia, Melanesia, French Polynesia)
- cost of living while at sea (on average)

Items I'd like to consider regarding equipment, rigging, crew, safety:

- boat capabilities, build quality, space, maintenance, equipment
- additional items (necessary/niceties) for cruising 
dinghy, generator, solar system, wind system, water system, dive tanks, snorkel gear, surf boards
- adequately prepared crew, well read and adequately experienced

For the boat itself, I am not set on a particular vessel. I'm open to just about anything at this point. I have however done quite a bit of research on the Beneteau Oceanis line as well as the Beneteau 54 (2011). I've also done some research on the Bavaria which seems to be a brand that has a large amount of heat around it (Capable! No, NOT Capable!, Trust me, Capable! No, NO WAY Capable!, etc). Outside of the french manufacturers and Bavaria - Oyster seems to strike my fancy. I understand this may be getting into another ballpark - so I'd like to be well researched before making a decision. One thing - it seems the British do a better job on their sailboats than their cars... while I am privy to German when it comes to vehicles (does that mean the debated Bavaria brand may have adequate engineering?) perhaps a different area in Europe builds finer vessels? 

Hard budget is $400K for the vessel itself. It would be nice to be in the $2-300 range but sometimes ponying up is a better investment and more fun.

See Budget Numbers (At Port) Here and (At Sea) HERE. What are we missing? (High Level Numbers are $50-80K down and $3-6K per month, not including expenses outside of sailing/liveaboard). Does anyone else have a financial model I can peek at that was done on the water or after a large trip?

Okay, some questions:

- I've never cruised more than a few days as most of my experience is racing. I plan on getting some weekend/week trips in before I push off. How much experience do I need before I start heading down south or east (to Cabo or Hawaii)? Maybe I should jump on a transpac beforehand? 

- Rigging - If I were to go with a production boat, how much rigging is involved to get the boat in long term cruising shape? Realistically, the boat will see some ocean passages but mainly be cruising the coasts. I do however want the boat to be SUPER capable of transpac, atlantic crossing, etc. 
- forestay / backstay modifications?
- hull / keel capabilities? 
- lines & sheets, upgrade or is factory adequate?

- Electronics - What electronics are nice to have that aren't crazy maintenance? In a car, I prefer a Porsche GT3 or BMW M3 opposed to a Mercedes C63 or Bentley, which is more complex and thus seems to have more failures when pushed to the limit. I have a feeling I will want to keep this same philosophy, while taking advantage of the technology that will be useful 

- Dinghy - I don't know why but I really am interested on what the largest and most reliable dinghy is that I can fit on any of these boats. Do we put it on the bow? Do we have a garage for it? Is it inflatable or inflatable with hard bottom?

- Generator & Power - What systems would you recommend based on the above and below? How would you outfit the boat?

- Water & Fuel - I'd like to maximize here obviously. Secondary tanks that were optional may have to be outfitted, recommendations? 

- Communications - How can I get some sort of internet connection while in port cities? I'm not expecting to have internet while doing crossings... only when close to a town or city. In addition to internet, how about sat phone for crossings?

- Safety - What am I overlooking? Should we invest in one of those RescYOU rafts or is that overkill? Is there something reasonable out there that is adequate?

- Disaster Recovery - Doubling up on autopilot gear, rudders, props, etc. Seems to be the norm. Any suggestions here? 

Lastly, timeframe for all of this is up in the air. Perhaps in 9 months to a year, perhaps in 1.5-2 years, it all depends how my current fiduciary obligations are going. In the interim, I'd like to put together a rough plan and gain as much experience racing/sailing around So Cal as I can.

I'd like to hear from folks or be linked to posts that have similar voyage planning if possible. It would be amazing to learn from your experience so I can shape this dream and start to move towards these goals. 

Thank you and I look forward to hearing back!

Cheers to health,


Ryne


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## pureenergy (Mar 29, 2015)

Gentlemen,

I can't seem to post a link to the budget due to not having more than 10 posts. Do any of y'all know a way to post this? Perhaps I can email someone a link to the PDF of these well laid out spreadsheets to post?

Best Regards,


Ryne


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## MFurber (Mar 6, 2015)

Hi Ryne.

I have a Jeanneau 49i, I have been sailing for around 10 years and are Yachtmaster qualified. My wife and I are pushing off to livaboard her next year so purchased this particular boat 2 years ago to make sure she was right for us.

I live on the east coast of England so my stomping ground is the North Sea and i have been to Europe from the UK many times already. In the past I have owned various yachts including, Snapdragon 27, Oceanis 393 etc I have also sailed on many heavy displacement boats including as helm on the clipper 60 fleet.

I was initially worried about having a light displacement boat but after 2 years of ownership a few thousand sea miles and months of talking to various other owners on this very subject I am very very happy to go blue water sailing on the Jeanneau.

It has already taken me through several force 8/9 (5-7) meter seas whilst crossing the North Sea and in those kind of conditions it has prooved to be every bit the passage maker. yes in those conditions it is more lively than a similar size heavy displacement boat but a friend of mine who owns a Moody 54 came with me once and said he was amazed at how it felt in rough conditions.

The main issues I have in heavy weather compared to heavy displacement boats are.

Beating to windward, large waves can slow the boat rapidly making passages very slow compared to a heavier boat, however on the flip side it doesn't plough through waves and is thus an extremely dry boat.

Running down wind she will pick up her feet and planes quickly so monitoring speed to avoid broaching is necessary in big seas, however a simple end of warp tied to the pushpit and streamed for 50 feet or so from the stern is enough to contain excessive speed (remember this is very large seas which you will not usually choose to end up in)

However on the flip,side on days where the conditions are less extreme she flies along with a fantastic motion the speed often getting into double numbers.

My conclusion is personally I would not hesitate to join the hundreds of other Bene and Jeanneau owners who have crossed both the Atlantic and Pacific ocean in production cruisers. HOWEVER.... If I decided I wanted to head further North into Scandinavia, or i was planning to do the Southern Ocean then I would choose a different boat, not a heavy displacement Moody, AMEL, Oyster or Halberg but a steel hulled boat, ice and debris then becomes a bigger factor, plus days and days in force 7/8 or above introduces constant twisting as well as huge forces on the rigging that I wouldn't want in any composite boat.

Incidentally the Jeanneau 49 is listed in the top 10 of Atlantic crossing vessels by the ARC along with the Bene 473 both of which are available for circa €150 -€250K depending upon age and specification.

There is a very good YouTube blog / film with a young man of similar age to yourself who is sailing from Greece to the Caribbean on a Bene 473 (type in La Vagabond Sailing Boat) into Google to view - very funny couple currently in the cape Verde islands.

I will let others respond on the other questions..


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## pureenergy (Mar 29, 2015)

MFurber said:


> Hi Ryne.
> 
> I have a Jeanneau 49i, I have been sailing for around 10 years and are Yachtmaster qualified. My wife and I are pushing off to livaboard her next year so purchased this particular boat 2 years ago to make sure she was right for us.
> 
> ...


Hi MFurber,

Thank you for the quick response, great information! I checked out La Vagabond this evening and watched some videos, super entertaining and fun to watch! Thank you for sharing.

I can't seem to find a measurable difference between Jeanneau and Beneteau boats - can you elaborate on what you think the differences are for comparable models (I.E. the same size and year boat, just different makes)? How did you come about landing on your Jeanneau 49i?

One thing that the Bavaria and some of the Bene's have that I noticed is somewhat 'cheap' feeling accessories. It's like Bose speakers (no offense)... starting to become very mainstream and somewhat plastic-y. One thing that I'd want to do is reduce the amount of gimmick-y, plastic-y, chrome-y finishes on the boat that are not necessary and either replace with quality parts or go without. I can't quite pinpoint what I am talking about here but it's sort of in the shower fixtures, water fixtures, etc - seems like Ikea esque. I could be wrong (I haven't been on a newer Bene or Bavaria). I did cruise on a Jeanneau 57' late last year and loved it. I didn't really note the items above when aboard (although was just stoked in general to be aboard).

Thoughts?

Have a great remainder of your weekend!

Cheers to health,

Ryne


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Welcome to SailNet.

You might want to spend some time reading this thread:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising-liveaboard-forum/53366-production-boats-limits.html


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

DRFerron said:


> Welcome to SailNet.
> 
> You might want to spend some time reading this thread:
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising-liveaboard-forum/53366-production-boats-limits.html


Weeks could be spent reading that thread...

As far as budget goes, the thumb-rule I like is that a boat costs _on average_ about 1.5%-2% of what you paid to buy it, plus about $500, per month. That's mooring, fuel, fixing broken stuff, upgrades, insurance, etc; whatever it costs to keep _you_ going (food, entertainment, non-boat expenses like car payments and health insurance, etc) is separate. While you're out doing passages, you're not paying moorage (commensurate with how boat-proud you are), but you're breaking stuff faster. Even if nothings breaking, you're buying the boat presents. AIS, an SSB to replace just the VHF, wifi booster, bigger winch to replace that one that doesn't quite measure up to the new spinnaker you bought three months ago, new dock lines because the current ones are looking sad and bristly, and those settee cushions are kind of dated now, with their dark plaids... And if you don't spend it this month, for whatever reason, it'll come around again later. It's not a question of _if_ you're going to take lightning to the mast, it's when...


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## MFurber (Mar 6, 2015)

pureenergy said:


> Hi MFurber,
> 
> I can't seem to find a measurable difference between Jeanneau and Beneteau boats - can you elaborate on what you think the differences are for comparable models (I.E. the same size and year boat, just different makes)? How did you come about landing on your Jeanneau 49i?
> 
> ...


Hi Again.

You are correct some of the parts you will find on production boats are cheaper, that's how they keep the costs down, but the financial savings you will make will allow you to beef these fittings up for longer passages. It's worth remembering that everything on boats heavy or not is a compromise, I once talked with a sailmaker who told me, everybody focuses on rigging, beefs it up so its bullet proof then they order in mast furling systems for conceniance, what they don't realise is often the sail thickness is reduced to allow the furled sail to fit so it isn't as strong, negating the need to beef up the rig in the first place as in a f10 your sail will quickly blow out!

There are lots of logic issues when choosing the right boat. As a parallel consider this, you buy a 4x4 because you can, it looks good, the kids are comfy and once a year you go for a spin off road, well based on this usage you don't need advice from the 4x4 officialdom on beefing up the differential, if you posted a question on their forums you would be inundated with suggestions on how to make your car stronger of last longer, also many would say don't bother buying it in the first place because you don't use it properly.....!

My point is, really your first question before even considering asking us know it alls for advice is "what exactly are you going to use it for" ? Your considerations are:

A) does it suit your needs.. Are you wanting to sail near ice flows? The southern Ocean? Are you going to have time issues which drive you out in bad weather forecasts because you have to be somewhere in a certain time? Or do you want a comfy boat, large cockpit, good electronics and a king size bed to share with.....etc etc  but it might occasionally be capable of handling in relatively stock format heavy weather.

B) the biggie.... How much cash do you want to spend, I wanted to hold back enough cash to have a nice boat but extend my cruising as long as possible, how depressing it would be to have the strongest, oyster, AMEL etc in the anchorage if you run out of cash and have to sell it... Better to have slightly less a boat with a cruising kitty that will allow for some of those cheap fittings to occasionally break and either have spares or the cash to get it fixed.

Im not advocating buying a cheap boat here..... I'm saying dont push yourself to go for a bullet proof, world girdling tank when you just need a pick up truck with nice leather seats and aircon....unless of course your particular requirements deem a Tank necessary but then I refer you to A.

C) when all the logic is finished then this one becomes really important, DO YOU LOVE HER... Boats are a nightmare to get rid off so make sure when the practicality is satisfied that you walk down the pontoon and stop to turn around to take that final look every time before you leave. Maybe it's just me but I need to love my boats I find it easier to lavish cash on that boring cutlass bearing or new warp if I do. She is my adventure, my home, my escape and my passion, not just an implement to,get me from a to b.

And I don't need the flashiest yacht to,achieve this... You asked why I chose my Jeanneau, because I asked myself the above 3 questions, checked the boxes I needed checking and sitting on her I couldn't believe that I would,be lucky enough to own such a thing, and I looked back when I walked away. BTW, I did the same thing when I bought my Oceanus 393.... Even though both the bene and Jeanneau come from the same factory but then so,does the VW Golf and the Beetle and I can tell you now they are definitely not the same thing...!

Good luck.....


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

hellsop said:


> Weeks could be spent reading that thread...


Well, I'm sure it would be the best month of one's life. It's pure brilliance.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

MFurber said:


> ...when all the logic is finished then this one becomes really important, DO YOU LOVE HER...
> 
> ..you walk down the pontoon and stop to turn around to take that final look every time before you leave.
> 
> ...sitting on her I couldn't believe that I would,be lucky enough to own such a thing..


Very well written. We have a Beneteau 50.

Regards,
Brad


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

pureenergy said:


> ...I'm going to leverage the boat as financing terms are favorable from what I've read. If interest rates are less than half of other investments where cash can be placed, the boat will be leveraged....


Where are you reading this? I can't imagine a bank lending money to you for half the interest rate of other investments. Why would any bank want to lend its money to help you buy a fast-depreciating asset for less than half the interest rate that you could get by placing your money elsewhere? Any banker with half a brain would just put his money in that same investment that you would, and make twice the interest back.

A boat is not an investment, and there's no scenario where you'll do better financing a boat than you would putting your money into a true investment.


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## pureenergy (Mar 29, 2015)

DRFerron said:


> Welcome to SailNet.
> 
> You might want to spend some time reading this thread:


Thank you DRFerron! I'm going to read this in detail, exactly the kind of posts that I wanted to be looped into. Appreciate it!

-Ryne


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## pureenergy (Mar 29, 2015)

hellsop said:


> Weeks could be spent reading that thread...
> 
> As far as budget goes, the thumb-rule I like is that a boat costs _on average_ about 1.5%-2% of what you paid to buy it, plus about $500, per month. That's mooring, fuel, fixing broken stuff, upgrades, insurance, etc; whatever it costs to keep _you_ going (food, entertainment, non-boat expenses like car payments and health insurance, etc) is separate. While you're out doing passages, you're not paying moorage (commensurate with how boat-proud you are), but you're breaking stuff faster. Even if nothings breaking, you're buying the boat presents. AIS, an SSB to replace just the VHF, wifi booster, bigger winch to replace that one that doesn't quite measure up to the new spinnaker you bought three months ago, new dock lines because the current ones are looking sad and bristly, and those settee cushions are kind of dated now, with their dark plaids... And if you don't spend it this month, for whatever reason, it'll come around again later. It's not a question of _if_ you're going to take lightning to the mast, it's when...


Awesome hellsop. It sounds like a $300K boat would cost around $6.5K per month to operate. Does this estimate you have take into account a loan on the boat?

Sounds sort of like car racing... love the context around when you're not paying moorage, you're out breaking stuff faster or buying presents. LOL

What types of cruises have you taken and did the 1.5%-2% become actualized after you did some penciling of your expenses?

Thank you!


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## pureenergy (Mar 29, 2015)

TakeFive said:


> Where are you reading this? I can't imagine a bank lending money to you for half the interest rate of other investments. Why would any bank want to lend its money to help you buy a fast-depreciating asset for less than half the interest rate that you could get by placing your money elsewhere? Any banker with half a brain would just put his money in that same investment that you would, and make twice the interest back.
> 
> A boat is not an investment, and there's no scenario where you'll do better financing a boat than you would putting your money into a true investment.


From what I have seen and inquired with various lenders is that $300K sailboat can be financed for 15 years @ 5-8% and 15% down with A+ (780+) credit and solid income.

Compare the interest rate (opposite of ROI) to (my) other private placement investments (ROI) and leveraging the boat becomes the cheaper option. Bankers in automotive/luxury lending don't have the option of making investments like this because their risk profile is lower (and heavily collateralized).

I'm in no way suggesting the boat was an investment, I apologize for the miscommunication.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

Good luck with the organic diet. Perhaps some places, but not in Micronesia, Melanesia, for example. The organic food selection would be limited to local fish. Everything else comes in on a ship, almost always commodity grade corporate label ... SPAM. But some places have great food: Philippines, Indonesia. But no way to know if it is organic.

Yes, a Lido 14 and a Synergie are fun to sail. The heavy cruisers many folks here suggest are much more like the Shields you have sailed: pigs digging a hole in the water, wallowing at best. So if having a blast sailing is a priority, rather than just a platform for the grill and entertaining, look at other boats.

I've never considered Cabo or Hawaii as being East of Newport Beach.


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## pureenergy (Mar 29, 2015)

aloof said:


> Good luck with the organic diet. Perhaps some places, but not in Micronesia, Melanesia, for example. The organic food selection would be limited to local fish. Everything else comes in on a ship, almost always commodity grade corporate label ... SPAM. But some places have great food: Philippines, Indonesia. But no way to know if it is organic.
> 
> Yes, a Lido 14 and a Synergie are fun to sail. The heavy cruisers many folks here suggest are much more like the Shields you have sailed: pigs digging a hole in the water, wallowing at best. So if having a blast sailing is a priority, rather than just a platform for the grill and entertaining, look at other boats.
> 
> I've never considered Cabo or Hawaii as being East of Newport Beach.


Hi aloof,

Thank you for the feedback. You mention other boats, which ones would you suggest looking at?

First things first, I should invest in a compass!  West... ah yes, West.

-Ryne


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

aloof said:


> I've never considered Cabo or Hawaii as being East of Newport Beach.


They are. Eventually.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

The Bene 50 and it's variants was the workhorse at the high end of the charter fleets for years. They got delivered all over the world on their own bottoms. Would I do a trade wind circumnavigation on one SURE I would. Would I take one down into the Southern ocean hmm maybe not.

One problem with the Bene/Bav/Jen/Gibs at that size is they are almost all configured with at least 4 cabins and multiple [4] toilets.

You should also look at an Amel they were built to be circumnavigated by older couples. More Amels have circumnavigated than any other major manufacturer. [ % of total build ].

Here is a blog from a young couple who started off not knowing much about boats and sailing yet circumnavigated successfully. Bumfuzzle » Intro & The StartBumfuzzle » Intro & The Start

There is an enormous thread on here about them too. Some wished them well others said " Yr gonna die "


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

pureenergy said:


> From what I have seen and inquired with various lenders is that $300K sailboat can be financed for 15 years @ 5-8% and 15% down with A+ (780+) credit and solid income.
> 
> Compare the interest rate (opposite of ROI) to (my) other private placement investments (ROI) and leveraging the boat becomes the cheaper option.


I'm still not buying your story. You're claiming that instead of paying cash, you should finance your boat at 5-8% because you can invest the borrowings and earn 10-16%. (You claimed you could earn double the interest rate you have to pay.)

If you're in your late 20s then you probably started investing around 2008 or 2009, the very bottom of the market. Based on your experience, you probably think that you can make 10-16% in a typical year. DON'T COUNT ON IT.

Ever heard of day trading? It was real big when you were in diapers. (Google it to find out the history.) A lot of those day traders might have bought some pretty big boats during the dot-com bubble. Most of them were reposessed after 2000.


pureenergy said:


> ...Bankers in automotive/luxury lending don't have this option because their risk profile is lower (and heavily collateralized).


You've got it backwards. A lower risk profile leads to lower interest rates, not higher. Higher risk requires higher interest rates. Just ask Countrywide Mortgage about that.

Sorry to sound so old and cranky.


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## pureenergy (Mar 29, 2015)

TakeFive said:


> I'm still not buying your story. You're claiming that instead of paying cash, you should finance your boat at 5-8% because you can invest the borrowings and earn 10-16%. (You claimed you could earn double the interest rate you have to pay.)
> 
> If you're in your late 20s then you probably started investing around 2008 or 2009, the very bottom of the market. Based on your experience, you probably think that you can make 10-16% in a typical year. DON'T COUNT ON IT.
> 
> ...


Hi TakeFive,

Understood, Thank you for the feedback. Yes, collateralized lending typically has less risk and lower interest rate (lower return for bankers). Perhaps we can take this off topic if you'd like to discuss investments. My email is ryneo (at) mac (dot) com. Would be fun to chat private placements.

Cheers,

Ryne


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

What the OP is proposing is not unreasonable. I bought my boat by borrowing against investments in a brokerage account. Margin. That is no different than taking a leveraged position in the investments. It was a better interest rate than available for a boat loan. And far better than selling any investments which appreciated very nicely while cruising (Apple workers: thanks for the free boat).

In my situation it was reasonable and not overly risky.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

aloof said:


> What the OP is proposing is not unreasonable. I bought my boat by borrowing against investments in a brokerage account. Margin. That is no different than taking a leveraged position in the investments. It was a better interest rate than available for a boat loan. And far better than selling any investments which appreciated very nicely while cruising (Apple workers: thanks for the free boat).
> 
> In my situation it was reasonable and not overly risky.


Can you guys explain this a bit more for those of us that might not be down with the financial lingo?

I paid cash for my boat - just because I wanted the freedom from debt. But even though I do okay money-wise, and have a few investments, I'm still not that sophisticated with the jargon and strategy.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

smackdaddy said:


> Can you guys explain this a bit more for those of us that might not be down with the financial lingo?


There are many ways this could go down. In may case it was January 2010. I'm retired. Living on dividends and such from investments. I find the boat I want. I don't have any cash. Could get a boat loan, but the boat is 30 years old, and in a foreign port, and it is 2010 when lenders were not eager.

But in about 60 seconds I can get a secured loan from my brokerage against my Apple stock. Borrowed $175,000. Normally that might be used to buy more stock, but they don't care, so I buy the boat instead. The interest rate varies, but is reasonable, considering. That Apple stock that I would have had to sell is now worth $730,000. Plus, Apple was paying some dividends along the way. Plus I would have had to pay some big taxes on the stock sale.

Of course it could have gone sour. Apple stock could have fallen in which case I might have to sell some other stuff, get a boat loan, move in with mom, or sell the boat, to cover the loan. But Apple seemed like a pretty good bet. I'm willing to take some risks as I'm still a young 60 and can always start over. Heh.

So in my case it was better to borrow against stock instead of either selling the investment or getting a boat loan.

I too dislike borrowing money to buy something like a boat, but this was sweet.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Very cool. That makes sense.

Thanks loof.


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## pureenergy (Mar 29, 2015)

aloof said:


> Good luck with the organic diet. Perhaps some places, but not in Micronesia, Melanesia, for example. The organic food selection would be limited to local fish. Everything else comes in on a ship, almost always commodity grade corporate label ... SPAM. But some places have great food: Philippines, Indonesia. But no way to know if it is organic.
> 
> Yes, a Lido 14 and a Synergie are fun to sail. The heavy cruisers many folks here suggest are much more like the Shields you have sailed: pigs digging a hole in the water, wallowing at best. So if having a blast sailing is a priority, rather than just a platform for the grill and entertaining, look at other boats.
> 
> I've never considered Cabo or Hawaii as being East of Newport Beach.


aloof,

Do you think there is fresh produce in most of these cruising areas? If it isn't organic but is natural (which means likely no sprays), I am all game. As long as we can pull into port every few weeks and stock up on goods, we should be "good to go"

Thoughts?

Where has the best food out of the places I mentioned from your experience?

Cheers,

Ryne


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## pureenergy (Mar 29, 2015)

aloof said:


> There are many ways this could go down. In may case it was January 2010. I'm retired. Living on dividends and such from investments. I find the boat I want. I don't have any cash. Could get a boat loan, but the boat is 30 years old, and in a foreign port, and it is 2010 when lenders were not eager.
> 
> But in about 60 seconds I can get a secured loan from my brokerage against my Apple stock. Borrowed $175,000. Normally that might be used to buy more stock, but they don't care, so I buy the boat instead. The interest rate varies, but is reasonable, considering. That Apple stock that I would have had to sell is now worth $730,000. Plus, Apple was paying some dividends along the way. Plus I would have had to pay some big taxes on the stock sale.
> 
> ...


You sound like an older version of me aloof! I like the part where you mention 'and can always start over'

It really isn't all that bad. I've lost it all and built it up 3-4 times in the last 7 years. It comes and goes.


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## pureenergy (Mar 29, 2015)

smackdaddy said:


> Can you guys explain this a bit more for those of us that might not be down with the financial lingo?
> 
> I paid cash for my boat - just because I wanted the freedom from debt. But even though I do okay money-wise, and have a few investments, I'm still not that sophisticated with the jargon and strategy.


Hi Smackdaddy,

For sure! Here is a nice article on margin accounts and borrowing against (leveraging) investments.

How to Borrow Against Your Investments - Budgeting Money

What I was stating is simply that the cost of capital (a loan for a boat) is less expensive (lower interest rate) than some other investments return (albeit with higher risk) where the cash could be invested and appreciate at a higher rate. This can be done through margin accounts too.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

pureenergy said:


> Hi Smackdaddy,
> 
> For sure! Here is a nice article on margin accounts and borrowing against (leveraging) investments.
> 
> ...


I understand all this. It all works great as long as the stock market continues its march upward. Past history does not guarantee future results.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

pureenergy said:


> Hi Smackdaddy,
> 
> For sure! Here is a nice article on margin accounts and borrowing against (leveraging) investments.
> 
> ...


Dude, I'm not reading all that. It's like several paragraphs!

I just wanted the condensed version. Loof came through.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

pureenergy said:


> aloof,
> 
> Do you think there is fresh produce in most of these cruising areas? If it isn't organic but is natural (which means likely no sprays), I am all game. As long as we can pull into port every few weeks and stock up on goods, we should be "good to go"
> 
> ...


Roundup is widely used in de islands mon. You might have to get used to eating taro in some places. Not going to be like Whole Food Market either. Good veggies as you know them can and will be sparse in some outer island areas. Best fresh markets we have seen were in Malaysian Borneo. Think Sarawak and Sabah with the biggest market we've seen in Kota Kinabalu.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

I have just been thru Micronesia so I can tell you that fresh produce is nearly nonexistent. The exception is Palau where there is a small amount of local farming activity. The rest of the islands seem to just import generic produce from California ... 20 days on a ship or more. Pretty bleak. The major ports of Polynesia have good produce ... tres expensive ... but any outer island is not going to provide you with anything interesting. The taro might be organic. But taro is a challenge to eat more than once. Local seem to reluctantly harvest mangoes and papayas. Seems like they are somehow, remarkably, easier to import from Mexico or wherever.

Head for the Philippines. It is fantastic. I don't think filipino farmers can afford pesticides. The markets, in any small city there, are bountiful. The produce perfect...and nearly free. My small experience with Indonesia is that it is similar. And the Philippines are fantastic cruising grounds.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

aloof said:


> I have just been thru Micronesia so I can tell you that fresh produce is nearly nonexistent. The exception is Palau where there is a small amount of local farming activity. The rest of the islands seem to just import generic produce from California ... 20 days on a ship or more. Pretty bleak. The major ports of Polynesia have good produce ... tres expensive ... but any outer island is not going to provide you with anything interesting. The taro might be organic. But taro is a challenge to eat more than once. Local seem to reluctantly harvest mangoes and papayas. Seems like they are somehow, remarkably, easier to import from Mexico or wherever.
> 
> Head for the Philippines. It is fantastic. I don't think filipino farmers can afford pesticides. The markets, in any small city there, are bountiful. The produce perfect...and nearly free. My small experience with Indonesia is that it is similar. And the Philippines are fantastic cruising grounds.


Where all were you in Micronesia loof? I spent 2 years in the Solomon Islands. And you're absolutely right about the utter lack of recognizable produce. But man did I eat a lot of taro, kassava, fruit, rice, and tuna.

Best bananas and mangos in the world, BTW.

PS - You might hold off on the Bene 50+ puree. Did you hear that a brand new O55 just sunk? That's quite a margin call.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

smackdaddy said:


> Where all were you in Micronesia loof? I spent 2 years in the Solomon Islands. And you're absolutely right about the utter lack of recognizable produce. But man did I eat a lot of taro, kassava, fruit, rice, and tuna.


Yes, much of the produce is unrecognizable. But if one knows what to do it turns into great meals. I don't know what to do, though. Never will. All thumbs in the galley. So I requisitioned, seduced with my charm I would think, a local woman (an organic woman - not medicated or chemically enhanced in any way) to do the shopping, cooking, and a few other important things... But, noteworthy, she cannot coax an edible dish from the taro root.

Note to the OP: Fish are plentiful in Micronesia, on the reef and at sea. Presumably organic, no?? I think our organic OPs will do just fine if they can adopt a more moderate food philosophy. The benefits of cruising far outweigh the temporary minor hazards of possibly less than perfect organic foods.

We sailed all over the PI for two years, then Palau, Helen Reef, Pohnpei and Majuro. Plus a detour to Sorong, Indonesia as crew on a super yacht.


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## pureenergy (Mar 29, 2015)

smackdaddy said:


> Dude, I'm not reading all that. It's like several paragraphs!
> 
> I just wanted the condensed version. Loof came through.


You say that reading 189 pages of a thread regarding cruisers would be the best time spent in ones life but don't want to read 8-10 paragraphs on a single page regarding investments? 

No worries, aloof did condense it well. He also had a success story which is more powerful than any article.


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## pureenergy (Mar 29, 2015)

smackdaddy said:


> Where all were you in Micronesia loof? I spent 2 years in the Solomon Islands. And you're absolutely right about the utter lack of recognizable produce. But man did I eat a lot of taro, kassava, fruit, rice, and tuna.
> 
> Best bananas and mangos in the world, BTW.
> 
> PS - You might hold off on the Bene 50+ puree. Did you hear that a brand new O55 just sunk? That's quite a margin call.


smackdaddy,

Interesting. What do you think of the Hanse boats? It seems like they have stunning good looks. How is build quality? Hull design? Hull construction? It looks like their draft is quite deep.

-Ryne


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

pureenergy said:


> You say that reading 189 pages of a thread regarding cruisers would be the best time spent in ones life but don't want to read 8-10 paragraphs on a single page regarding investments?
> 
> No worries, aloof did condense it well. He also had a success story which is more powerful than any article.


_Read_ 189 pages? Why, I _wrote_ those pages along with a few pals.

Anyway, stocks and commodities are boring. I prefer businesses.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

pureenergy said:


> smackdaddy,
> 
> Interesting. What do you think of the Hanse boats?


They are nice boats. I bought a Hunter.


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

pureenergy said:


> Awesome hellsop. It sounds like a $300K boat would cost around $6.5K per month to operate. Does this estimate you have take into account a loan on the boat?
> 
> Sounds sort of like car racing... love the context around when you're not paying moorage, you're out breaking stuff faster or buying presents. LOL
> 
> ...


Nope, that presumes the boat is already paid for. Loan circumstances vary far more with boats than houses. Lot more bought with cash, few boats increase in value.


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

TakeFive said:


> A lot of those day traders might have bought some pretty big boats during the dot-com bubble. Most of them were reposessed after 2000.


And they're on the used market even today, for a dime on the dollar they cost new.


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## hellsop (Jun 3, 2014)

pureenergy said:


> What types of cruises have you taken and did the 1.5%-2% become actualized after you did some penciling of your expenses?
> 
> Thank you!


Here's a reference:

Bumfuzzle » Cost for a Sail Around the World

One dataset but it fits really nicely.


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