# Armchair sailer VS Blue water sailor



## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

I have heard a lot of talk on this board about what does or does not constitute a "Blue Water" boat. I think the best measure of a blue water boat is that it actually crossed an ocean. 

SO let have a quick roll call.

In addition to giving brag space, I hope that it will be informative, to someone considering their first passage, to see someone who has made it in a simular boat. And what to expect.

1. Yes I have a blue water boat - I crossed the ----- Ocean in it, from point A to point B. a ??? mile crossing.
2. LOA, brand, keel type, # of hulls.
3. Time it took to cross
4. Max weather encountered in crossing.
5. gals of fuel, water, beer, ramen noodles consumed.
6. rate passage, 1 = washing machine in spin cycle, 10 = didn't spill the champaign.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

No crossings here. Just some off-shore racing thus far. Actually, I'm not much interested in big passages. I just want to explore places and race - so I'll probably keep a fun coastal boat, then charter.

As for clarification on the whole "blue water boat" debate, this was a good thread:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising-liveaboard-forum/53366-production-boats-limits.html


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

does a passage from Norfolk to Tortola count as "crossing an ocean"? I wouldnt think so, but it isnt a "gulf" either, though it certainly counts as "blue water"


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

sck5 said:


> does a passage from Norfolk to Tortola count as "crossing an ocean"? I wouldnt think so, but it isnt a "gulf" either, though it certainly counts as "blue water"


I'd assume you went far enough offshore to lose sight of land? Also far enough to be outside of a weather forecast or ability to run to port if snotty weather did appear?

You definitely were on a bluewater passage.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

My biggest non-interupted passage thus far has been a crossing of Lake Michigan (~75NM), which took about 12 hours overnight. Probably not a true "bluewater" passage, but I was 30+ NM's from the nearest land at one point, so give this Great Lakes sailor some props, will ya!?


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

kwaltersmi said:


> My biggest non-interupted passage thus far has been a crossing of Lake Michigan (~75NM), which took about 12 hours overnight. Probably not a true "bluewater" passage, but I was 30+ NM's from the nearest land at one point, so give this Great Lakes sailor some props, will ya!?


hmmm, while a nice passage...I just dont know if this would be truly bluewater. You weren't out of range of a weather forecast. In my opinion (for what its worth) you were still coastal cruising here.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Three passages

I do not own a boat, I sail OPBs

Honolulu to Port Renfrew 2500 Miles 19 days Elite 37

Lahaina to Vancouver 2600 miles 21 days C&C 41

Newport RI to Bermuda to St Barths 1400 miles 16 days Hylas 46

I have also been Around Vancouver Island 10 times.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

sck5 said:


> does a passage from Norfolk to Tortola count as "crossing an ocean"? I wouldnt think so, but it isnt a "gulf" either, though it certainly counts as "blue water"


If you left the contenental shelf and didn't return to the same port; Yes it counts.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

night0wl said:


> hmmm, while a nice passage...I just dont know if this would be truly bluewater. You weren't out of range of a weather forecast. In my opinion (for what its worth) you were still coastal cruising here.


Personally, I define blue water as where the chart goes white. That's off-shore. That's good enough for me.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

jackdale said:


> Three passages
> 
> I do not own a boat, I sail OPBs
> 
> ...


You made good time to Honolulu, how was the weather?


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Personally, I define blue water as where the chart goes white. That's off-shore. That's good enough for me.


While the Great lakes are capable of dishing out anything the Atlantic can, I frequently go more than 24 hours out into the Gulf of Mexico to fish, and I don't consider that a "crossing".


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

CapnBilll said:


> While the Great lakes are capable of dishing out anything the Atlantic can, I frequently go more than 24 hours out into the Gulf of Mexico to fish, and I don't consider that a "crossing".


Agreed. But I still call it blue water. I just like the setting the bar really low.


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

There is a difference from sailing "Bluewater" and doing a crossing. Also, just because you don't sail the salt and go out of sight of land, does not make one an "Armchair" sailor...... That is reserved for those that never leave the house, let alone the dock.


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## ArcherBowman (Jul 1, 2009)

I must confess - lake sailor here. Six off-shore day sails in Charleston Harbor are my only salt water experience, although two of those were on my own boat and under my own command.

Three over-nights on freshwater lakes at anchor.

The rest has all been daysailing. No passage-making at all.

*sniff*


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

A trip from BC to northern California some time ago.. with a stop (usncheduled) in Astoria, so have 'done' the Columbia Bar twice (on benign days) (consider that Coastal for sure). Learned lots on that trip (on someone else's boat)

Mainly coastal cruising in BC waters since, exc several Island hopping trips in the Eastern Caribbean (St Maarten to Grenada to Barbuda) over several seasons, one local short week on Mexico's Pacific coast. These were short hops, 50-60 nm max, stopping every night..

No ocean 'crossing' yet....


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

CapnBilll said:


> You made good time to Honolulu, how was the weather?


On both trips we were prepared to power through high if needed. Both times we had jerry cans lashed on deck.

On the first trip we hit a small piece of fishing net which took out our transmission and had to sail out of the high. (That is a whole other story). Once we hit the westerlys we had winds to 30-35. But once we got within site of land we spent 1.5 days adrift at the mouth of Juan de Fuca.

On the second trip the high shifted north for the last part of the passage and we spent too much time with the wind on the nose.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

CapnBilll said:


> Some of the blue water debate centers around the assumtion that you will run into worse conditions "out there".
> 
> I can attest that is not neccessarily so. I have run into some serious sh(*& just 10 miles away from land. I sincerely hope it doesn't get worse further out.
> 
> ...


Okay - that's going in the BFS thread. Great story.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jackdale said:


> On both trips we were prepared to power through high if needed. Both times we had jerry cans lashed on deck.
> 
> On the first trip we hit a small piece of fishing net which took out our transmission and had to sail out of the high. (That is a whole other story). Once we hit the westerlys we had winds to 30-35. But once we got within site of land we spent 1.5 days adrift at the mouth of Juan de Fuca.
> 
> On the second trip the high shifted north for the last part of the passage and we spent too much time with the wind on the nose.


Man I wish you'd publish your logs. It sounds like you have some truly great stories Jack.


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## ste27 (Jul 29, 2007)

I've done 3 deliveries from Bermuda to Newport on an Oyster 435. Most of these are reasonably uneventful, just the usual gulf stream business (anything can happen, and does). Highest wind 40, lowest 0. I've seen it so calm that the stars reflect clearly off the water, and a lightning storm so crazy it looked like daylight for about an hour. Average time 100 hours, 650 miles or so

One Bermuda to Annapolis delivery on a custom 73', 80 hours - no auto, hand steered this beast the whole way, twin wheels and all that. Only time I've ever slept in my pfd

2009 Marion to Bermuda race - C&C 37+. Race was almost delayed because of 2 fronts coming together on the rhumb line. Withdrew 24 hours in, got the crap kicked out of us, engine ran dry about 100 miles from the island with us facing 30kt dead on the nose (we were prepped for a race, not a delivery) so we sailed it onto the inside of the customs dock in St G

2010 Newport to Bermuda race. High of about 30, low of so low that we actually went "faster" (a relative term at this point) with the jib down

So I dunno, about 4000 miles total?


LOTS of one-design racing mostly protected water, all salt though - never sailed fresh


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## okawbow (Feb 15, 2007)

In my Bristol 24, I consider the Gulf of Mexico, "Blue water". Even with a weather forcast; it can get bad and prevent sailing back to shore for a while. I did a solo 140 mile crossing in the B24 once, and It took 30 hours and 15-20 knot winds and 4-6' waves beat me up a little.

This spring, my wife and I sailed our Cheoy Lee 31 ketch from Mobile, AL to Key West. We were out of sight of land for 5 days in weather from calm to 20 knots. We sailed except the last few miles when the wind was on the nose close to Key west. We had minimal electronics on board, and saw only 1 other sailboat and a few fishing boats during the crossing. It sure felt like a blue water crossing to me.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

ste27 said:


> I've done 3 deliveries from Bermuda to Newport on an Oyster 435. Most of these are reasonably uneventful, just the usual gulf stream business (anything can happen, and does). Highest wind 40, lowest 0. I've seen it so calm that the stars reflect clearly off the water, and a lightning storm so crazy it looked like daylight for about an hour. Average time 100 hours, 650 miles or so
> 
> One Bermuda to Annapolis delivery on a custom 73', 80 hours - no auto, hand steered this beast the whole way, twin wheels and all that. Only time I've ever slept in my pfd
> 
> ...


Dude - that counts. I don't care what anyone says!

This past race was the first time I had used AP (on the return). Man, that's a serious convenience. The 24h hand-steer can sure get tiring...and we were in very mellow seas.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

We old folk try are best and got lucky again this weekend


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## KnottyGurl (Feb 8, 2011)

Sailed the Great lakes Ontario and Erie, crossed two sets of locks Welland and ST Lawrence, Sailed 1000 Islands, Still working to get to Atlantic.
May not be your blue water, but for us that sail Inland Seas, we know were doing "Fresh Blue Water"


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

Faster said:


> A trip from BC to northern California some time ago..


Faster, that counts! California is in another world, sailing to California from anywhere (except Oregon) is like sailing off into outer space. A true nautical astronaut are you.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

billyruffn said:


> Faster, that counts! California is in another world, sailing to California from anywhere (except Oregon) is like sailing off into outer space. A true nautical astronaut are you.


LOL.... indeed!:laugher


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

tommays said:


> We old folk try are best and got lucky again this weekend


Tom you are a machine!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Longest offshore/gulf crossing would be across the top of Australia from Thursday Island to Darwin some years back. Not my boat, I was half the crew. Great stuff. Utterly benign weather other than the occasional tropical squall that would hit around dawn each morning. 

Other than that I'm a coastal potterer from Port Stephens to Jervis Bay. Sometimes single handed, most times two of us, occasional extra crew.

Worst weather I've ever encountered was inside Sydney Harbour.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

KnottyGurl said:


> Sailed the Great lakes Ontario and Erie, crossed two sets of locks Welland and ST Lawrence, Sailed 1000 Islands, Still working to get to Atlantic.
> May not be your blue water, but for us that sail Inland Seas, we know were doing "Fresh Blue Water"


OK I'm good with that, just give length of voyage, (in miles, and days), type size of boat used and max, min weather encountered. The Edmund Fitzgerald can attest the Great Lakes can dish out anything the Atlantic can.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

tdw said:


> Longest offshore/gulf crossing would be across the top of Australia from Thursday Island to Darwin some years back. Not my boat, I was half the crew. Great stuff. Utterly benign weather other than the occasional tropical squall that would hit around dawn each morning.
> 
> Other than that I'm a coastal potterer from Port Stephens to Jervis Bay. Sometimes single handed, most times two of us, occasional extra crew.
> 
> Worst weather I've ever encountered was inside Sydney Harbour.


How far is that and what boat?


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## ronspiker (Jun 27, 2001)

One offshore passage,
Houston TX to St. Petersburg Fl
Hans Christian 38
7 days
2 1/2 days of 40kt winds
the first 5 days were a 10 the last 2 1/2 were a 2.
I would do it all again.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

ronspiker said:


> One offshore passage,
> Houston TX to St. Petersburg Fl
> Hans Christian 38
> 7 days
> ...


Exactlyy what I was looking for Thanks for the post!

I get 1200miles by google, how many miles did you actually log?

Sounds like you encountered a front just out of St Pete? What time of year was it?

Was the 38 a good boat, or would you have liked a bigger one?
How much sail were you flying in 40kts?

Did you have to use any heavy weather tactics? (drogue, sea anchor, etc...)


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

1.) Yes, I have a blue water boat - (She was single-handed into Maryland from South Africa but not by me) I never crossed an Ocean but have made offshore passages in other boats besides mine, longest was 3 1/2 days from Savannah to St Augustine non-linearly, no knot meter but dead reckoned roughly 300-400 miles of beating into high winds.
2.) The longest passage was made in a 35 foot, 1908 Herreshoff custom sloop, fin keel attached rudder monohull. 
My boat is LOA,: 38 brand: Farr, keel type: fin, # of hulls:mono.
3.) Time it took to cross: Three and a half day
4.) Max weather encountered in crossing: Before electronic instruments swere common so wind speed is a guess but we estimated pretty constant above 20 with days of 30-40 knots and 15-20 (crest to trough) foot seas.
5. 2-3 gals of fuel, 10-15 gallons water, no beer, no ramen noodles consumed.
6. rate passage, 1 = washing machine in spin cycle, 10 = didn't spill the champaign. 
0 constant fight for our lives.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> 1.) 0 constant fight for our lives.


I forgot that catagory thanks. What time of year was it? It sounds like you sailed in to the teeth of a Nor'easter?


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> 1908 Herreshoff custom sloop, fin keel


Wow, did Herreshoff really have a fin keel (as opposed to full keel) boat in 1908?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The trip was in March. Most but not all of Nat Herreshoff's one design race boats were fin keels with attached rudders by the definitions of the day.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> The trip was in March. Most of Herreschoffs boats were fin keels with attached by the definitions of the day.


Thanks Jeff. I always referred to those designs as "modified full keel", "cut-away full keel" or "short keel". But I can see some "fin" in there and have heard Herreshoff as being credited with designing the first fin keel boats. I tend to have a shorter memory and I suppose mistakenly credit Lapworth's Cal 40 as the first "modern" fin keel.

Back to the armchair vs. bluewater discussions...


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## donradclife (May 19, 2007)

You can put me down in the bluewater category. One circumnavigation, over 85,000 miles on the currrent boat, 6 races to Hawaii, and more. 

1. Have circumnavigated in the boat, so it must be a bluewater boat--17 years and 85,000 miles. Longest passage was 4600 mile run from Panama to Hawaii this year--29 days. Next longest was Galapagos to Marquesas--3000 miles in 19 days.

Boat is Beneteau First 456-- 45 ft long mono with an 8 ft draft fin keel and a spade rudder--great for passagemaking and living aboard.

Worst weather--45 knots sustained for a day coming down from Norfolk to the VI. Probably saw over 35 knots sustained less than 6 times.

Untold gallons of beer consumed, 4,000 hours on the motor, and we eat better than Ramen noodles--even have a bread maker on board.

The whole experience was a 10, except for being chased by pirates in the gulf of aden.


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## rpeebles (Oct 18, 2010)

*West to east Atlantic from US*

Looking for tips as to best route, time, and references to published logs, experiences, books...whatever will get me off the couch and into blue water! Thanks in advance


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

it's sailOr. nothing else to say.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

rpeebles said:


> Looking for tips as to best route, time, and references to published logs, experiences, books...whatever will get me off the couch and into blue water! Thanks in advance


Start with Jimmy Cornell - World Cruising Routes

Then read books by the Hiscocks, Smeetons, Lisa Copeland, Fiona MaCall, etc..


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The trouble with the poll is that there is not a category to pick which says, "I have made at least one several day long offshore passage". I think that a lot of us have been offshore out of sight of land and have experienced what that is like.

*But that brings me to the name of this thread*, which I suggest is borderline insulting. There are a large number of sailors who are neither Armchair sailors nor Blue water sailors but are sailors just the same. These people may spend more time out on the water, may have sailed more miles, may be more skilled, may sail in more challanging conditions than someone who nominally calls themselves a "Bluewater sailer" (or a Bluewater Sailor for that matter).

The name of this thread suggests that you must be a bluewater sailor to be a valid sailor. I think nothing is further from the truth. Some of us, myself included, find coastal cruising more challenging and interesting than being offshore, which is not to say that one or the other is more universally better or somehow a more valid form of sailing. For myself, I frankly don't care to pigeonhole myself as one kind of sailor or another; I enjoy sailing, do as much as I can, do as many different types as I can, and do it as well as I can. It works for me and that is enough for me.

Conceptually, I am uncomfortable with trying to polarize the various aspects of our sport. In my life I have met all kinds of sailors, with an extremely wide range of skills, experience and aspirations. It does not matter to me what their choices are, and I don't look down on them, no how they chose to sail, assuming they are reasonably responsible. All that should matter is that they are satisfied with what they get out of being a sailor.

Respectfully,
Jeff

p.s. To go off topic for a moment, in the nineteenth and early 20th century fin keels were defined differently than they were today. In Herreshoff's time, it was not about the rudder position but about the relative length of the keel to the sail plan. Herreshoff was an early experimenter with fin keels with separated rudders but he was not the only one. Boats like the Star Class (which have fin keels with a bulb and a separate rudder) are 100 year old design, but there were many other fin keelers with separate rudders (110, 210, A.R. Rocket, and so on) that predate the Cal 40.


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## marianclaire (Feb 4, 2010)

Closest I have come to "blue water" was my single-handed crossing of the Gulf Stream from Lake Worth to Great Sale Cay via Matanilla Shoal. 
30 ft, homemade wooden slope, full keel, 36hrs west to east. E 15- , waves 3 to 4 and short period. Motor sailed full trip so 22 gal+- used by my A-4. Lots of water. Rum at GSC. Call it a 5. Tried to stop and rest on the bank but the boat was very unhappy and I could not rest so just keep going. 
Return trip was only 26hrs GSC to Ft Pierce E 15, some 5 and 6 ft but much longer period. Say 6. What a difference fair wind and following seas make. No auto pilot no roller furling. Dan S/V Marian Claire


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

+1 to Jeff

Coastal sailing is much more hazardous that offshore sailing. The rocks and deadheads tend to be close to shore. 

That being said I prefer the challenges of coastal sailing. 

BTW - I have hit something offshore. In the middle of the Pacific High a small piece of fishing net around the prop shaft destroyed our transmission.


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## Arpegecap (Sep 19, 2011)

Newport Bermuda - 3 times. Ericson 39 "Elan". Fin keel. 4 Gallons fuel (battery charge) 20 gallons of water. 8 large jars peanut butter, hotdogs, no beer, one bottle of cognac.

Crossings averaged 6 1/2 days. Worst weather was a North wall with short steep waves for 30 hours, severe thunderstorms with gusts to 50 Kts. Rate that as a "3" on the scale.


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## GBurton (Jun 26, 2007)

Personally I have much more respect and am more willing to listen to the advice of those who have crossed oceans and been out there beyond the "weather window" than those who are essentially "weekend warriors" 
There is a big difference between being 10 hours from shore or in the middle of the pacific.

Frankly I find it a little humorous to hear that Jeff has little to no experience offshore ... and that he finds the title of the thread insulting


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

CapnBilll said:


> How far is that and what boat?


Bill,
Roughly 800nms. 26' sloop. 
26' is fine for offshore work provided you accept the lack of decent stowage space. Other than food she was a fine boat to be on but once you arrive in port the thing was simply too small for comfort. The catering problems are not really so bad provided you are not going to be at sea for longer than a few days. I can live on pasta and rice plus sandwiches for a few days but that is about it. Smaller boats also tend to have such a quick motion that unless the sea is pretty flat and you are reaching cooking becomes a severely onerous chore. Take her up beyond, say , mid thirties and it all becomes a bit easier.
btw ... our current boat has done about half a circumnavigation ... Sweden to Australia via Panama plus a couple of excursions into Oceania and back down the Australian coast but that was before we met her.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

GBurton said:


> Personally I have much more respect and am more willing to listen to the advice of those who have crossed oceans and been out there beyond the "weather window" than those who are essentially "weekend warriors"
> There is a big difference between being 10 hours from shore or in the middle of the pacific.
> 
> Frankly I find it a little humorous to hear that Jeff has little to no experience offshore ... and that he finds the title of the thread insulting


The very best sailors I know are not necessarily those who have crossed oceans , indeed the best offshore sailors of my acquaintance became the sailors they are/were by lots of inshore and coastal work. Some of the most useless knobhead sailors I've met have included some who bought boat and set sail with bugger all coastal experience. They may well have learnt along the way but often simply continued on in their mindless knobheadedness. (This is by no means a comprehensive survey given that I am sampling only a handful of offshorers.)

To some extent I agree with Jeff re the title. Someone who sails every other weekend be it on a lake, a river , a harbour or coastal cannot under any circumstances be considered an armchair sailor. OK, so they may not be qualified on the finer points of round the Horn but that is quite excusable.

You do have to realise that not everyone wants to do long passages. I love being out of sight of land for days on end but the jury is still out on whether I would like it for weeks on end. Early next year I am planning/hoping on doing a passage to Lord Howe Island. That will entail a 250nm coastal north, then 350nms south east offshore before a further 350nms west back to Sydney. If I do accomplish this then perhaps I'll have a bit more to say.

Reality is that there is offshore and then there is offshore. While I am in no way putting down those who have done it, the coconut run west across the Pacific can hardly be comparable to e.g Capetown to Sydney underneath Tasmania. I'd love to do the Coconut but you'd need a big gun to convince me to do the other.


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## SkywalkerII (Feb 20, 2008)

Just one man's opinion...

I was always interested in sailing, but the opportunity arrived later for me-I was in my late thirties. Once given the chance, I read everything, talked to anyone, boat a good old boat, and sailed.

I raced, cruised, crewed. 

I came to trust myself and my Tartan 27 to the point that I sailed when others didn't. Small craft advisories were my friend. Added reef points, bought a storm jib, built a backup emergency tiller. 

Had success on the race course.

Sailed in the remnants of hurricane Ivan when the local club cancelled the race due to the weather- sustained in the thirties, gusts higher.

Raced ocean courses around Long Island.

Unfortunately, I haven't had the time for off shore passages...yet.

My point is this, blue water sailing, while often considered the gold standard, is only one version of reality. I think it's the frame of mind more than the piece of water you are floating on. Everything I do on my boat is with the thought "will this help me get to Bermuda!", even though that trip is far in the future.

I push the boat and myself. I prepare the boat and myself. I hope life let's me cross the ocean.

But I'm still a sailor nonetheless.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

The big difference between coastal and trans-ocean is the later must be substantially self-sufficient. For example, losing a rudder mid-ocean is a lot different than losing it a day or two from a harbor. Coastal sailing can be no romp in the park either (try rounding Conception in 35kt sustained or crossing the SF bar with 15-20 ft breaking waves sometime). These two types of sailing do require entirely different skill sets.

In the for what it's worth department, my longest trans ocean passage was San Francisco to Kaneohe, Oahu on a Nordic 44. Distance was a little over 2,500 nm. Time: 12 days, 2 hours. We had pretty typical weather conditions for July, heavy fog and overcast with winds on the beam in the 15 - 25kt range until about 500 nm offshore from California. Had no problem transitioning into the trade wind belt where we experienced daytime winds no less than the low teens and nighttime winds up to the low twenties. Nighttime squalls increased the winds to the mid thirties with higher gusts. We used about 5 gallons of fuel (recharging batteries), about two cases of beer, two bottles of cabernet for the half way celebration and a ration of gin to celebrate the last of the ice. We consumed about 120 gallons of water which equated to a little over one gallon per person per day. No ramen - we know how to provision. Rate the passage? We took second place in our division and won first place in the team trophy.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I agree with some others that the original questions do not cover the intended topics very well. 
I have just crossed the South Pacific (just over 10,000 miles) but it was not one passage it was 11, ranging from 350 miles (2 1/2 days, Pitcairn to Mangareva) to 2000 (14 days, Galapagos to Easter). Passage was done with my wife on our Bristol 45.5 - a model that I would be happy to recommend for long distance cruising. Boat is quite heavy, around 18 tons and has a centerboard. We sailed about 85% of the time and motored or motor-sailed the rest. We got fuel and water where convenient and cheap. Have a watermaker but did not use it all that much.

Maximum weather was about 55 knots and included a knockdown - I understand squash zones a lot better now and why is there so much written about the Intra-tropical Convergence Zone and so little about the South Pacific Convergence Zone which is much of an issue for those crossing the South Pacific. We tended to have too much wind 25 to 40 knots about 15% of the time and too little (less than 10) about 20% of the time. On balance had more bad conditions going from Norfolk to St Thomas (but it was November) and on a few NYC to Bermuda trips.

Had about 6 packages of Ramen noodles but lots of local foods from wherever we could find them (best shopping was in Ecuador (and cheap!), Tahiti (not cheap but the best supermarket I have ever seen), and Fiji.)


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

donradclife said:


> You can put me down in the bluewater category. One circumnavigation, over 85,000 miles on the currrent boat, 6 races to Hawaii, and more.
> 
> 1. Have circumnavigated in the boat, so it must be a bluewater boat--17 years and 85,000 miles. Longest passage was 4600 mile run from Panama to Hawaii this year--29 days. Next longest was Galapagos to Marquesas--3000 miles in 19 days.
> 
> ...


You, sir....ARE THE MAN!

And here's to blue water production boats!!!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> Maximum weather was about 55 knots and included a knockdown - I understand squash zones a lot better now and why is there so much written about the Intra-tropical Convergence Zone and so little about the South Pacific Convergence Zone which is much of an issue for those crossing the South Pacific.


Can you talk about this some more? What are squash zones?


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## Lake Superior Sailor (Aug 23, 2011)

I sail Lake Superior to Isle Royal 70 miles + ,the water is a pretty blue color & Superoir never gives up her dead! so does it count--Dale


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Lake Superior Sailor said:


> I sail Lake Superior to Isle Royal 70 miles + ,the water is a pretty blue color & Superoir never gives up her dead! so does it count--Dale


Only if you know all of the lyrics 

Actually I think an early posting indicated that it counts.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*Squash zones*



smackdaddy said:


> Can you talk about this some more? What are squash zones?


I am certainly not a weather expert but here goes. Before heading this way I was like most people - had seen the great footage of the various races through the Roaring 40s and further south and I knew that there was a constant progression of lows from west to east that produces all that wind and those waves.

Trusting, naive soul that I am (Canadian after all and from the Great Lakes to boot), I thought, we will never be further south than 27S at Easter and quite a bit north of that for most of the trip so those lows won't bother us. BUT, between each of the lows (that are quite small and often really deep, like 970 mb in one case are enormous, very high highs - 1035 mb seemed pretty common, So as these highs pass to the east they produce a steep pressure gradient between them (say to 22S) and the low pressure area at the equator. Lots of chances for 30+ knots with these.

Then one more thing can happen. The impression I get is that as the lows to the south start to break up -- ie the cold front catches up and overrides the warm front producing an occluded front to the north, they spin northward from the 40s to perhaps 25 S. So, stick with me, you have an area of low pressure, not at 5N or the equator but at 25 or even 22 S. Then the next monster high comes along and you have a squash zone with a huge pressure gradient and lots of wind. This is the South Pacific Convergence Zone and it goes from the eastern side of French Polynesia to Vanuatu normally which is a huge area.

Turns out we were lucky/made a smart decision. We went from French Polynesia to Suwarrow in the Cooks and then American Samoa and then Fiji. Most people, including several friends, go from FP to Tonga and then Fiji. This route takes you just a few degrees further south and increases the exposure to these squash zones. From FP to Fiji we never had more than 20 knots except for the odd, brief squall. Our friends got a couple of 40 knot episodes for 12 to 18 hours each.

Hope that makes sense. It is easier to explain with a chart. BTW, we got knocked down going from Mangareva to Tahiti at about 23S if I remember correctly (near Mururoa where the French did their nuclear testing)


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

3 days out of Galveston, ended up going into Louisiana when the head sail started coming unsewn. 20-25 knot winds for day and a half. 3 days, Destin to Tampa Bay, no wind (had the sails up for 3 hours, for all the good it did). Both of those were with 2 crew. Many overnights since then solo, with one two nighter. 35+ knot winds in a thunderstorm off Florida coast is the worst I've had. Couple of hairy inlet exits. 

I have no idea what "kind" of sailor I am. All that matters to me is that I'm a happy one, doing what I want to do. Oh, and anybody that needs that elusive half knot, can have mine.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

killarney_sailor said:


> I am certainly not a weather expert but here goes. Before heading this way I was like most people - had seen the great footage of the various races through the Roaring 40s and further south and I knew that there was a constant progression of lows from west to east that produces all that wind and those waves.
> 
> Trusting, naive soul that I am (Canadian after all and from the Great Lakes to boot), I thought, we will never be further south than 27S at Easter and quite a bit north of that for most of the trip so those lows won't bother us. BUT, between each of the lows (that are quite small and often really deep, like 970 mb in one case are enormous, very high highs - 1035 mb seemed pretty common, So as these highs pass to the east they produce a steep pressure gradient between them (say to 22S) and the low pressure area at the equator. Lots of chances for 30+ knots with these.
> 
> ...


Good info, these are the kinds of things I wanted to learn.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> The trouble with the poll is that there is not a category to pick which says, "I have made at least one several day long offshore passage". I think that a lot of us have been offshore out of sight of land and have experienced what that is like.
> 
> *But that brings me to the name of this thread*, which I suggest is borderline insulting.
> 
> ...


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

CapnBilll said:


> We can rename the poll question, "Have you made an overnight voyage more than 80 miles from shore?". (Earlier discussion consenses was if you arrived at a different port than you left, you made a crossing, even if a tiny sliver of it).


We all have our own definitions for commonly used words. For me "offshore" means sailing farther than a reasonably reliable (three-day) weather forecast. The rhythm of watches, the absence of bail-outs, wedging into the galley, some sunrises and sunsets - that is offshore sailing.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm an "armchair sailor". I've never ventured out of the Chesapeake, or sailed greater than 80 miles in a single stretch- in my sailboat.

I have however, circumnavigated the globe in a submarine, and surfaced twice at the North Pole, and worked upon the ice cap for many hours each time. I've visited something like 14 other nations. I laugh at how some people seem to discount that experience, as if voyaging around the world, hundreds of feet underwater with a nuclear pile powering everything is some sort of inherently safe, boring occupation.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

SVAuspicious said:


> We can rename the poll question, "Have you made an overnight voyage more than 80 miles from shore?". (Earlier discussion consenses was if you arrived at a different port than you left, you made a crossing, even if a tiny sliver of it).


We all have our own definitions for commonly used words. For me "offshore" means sailing farther than a reasonably reliable (three-day) weather forecast. The rhythm of watches, the absence of bail-outs, wedging into the galley, some sunrises and sunsets - that is offshore sailing.[/QUOTE]

Me nether. I don't consider myself a "bluewater sailer" even though I fish the 100 mile deepwater floaters in the Gulf of Mexico. It takes a day to get there and a day to get back, (more if you get trapped out there with a coastal storm).

By definition Coastal means in the area covered by the contenental shelf. Which out of Galveston extends 100miles

But, in the interest of getting the thread back on track, I'm willing to make concessions. Just post the longest voyage, and what boat you did it in. The board will decide what "counts". :thumbsup:


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> I am certainly not a weather expert but here goes. Before heading this way I was like most people - had seen the great footage of the various races through the Roaring 40s and further south and I knew that there was a constant progression of lows from west to east that produces all that wind and those waves.
> 
> Trusting, naive soul that I am (Canadian after all and from the Great Lakes to boot), I thought, we will never be further south than 27S at Easter and quite a bit north of that for most of the trip so those lows won't bother us. BUT, between each of the lows (that are quite small and often really deep, like 970 mb in one case are enormous, very high highs - 1035 mb seemed pretty common, So as these highs pass to the east they produce a steep pressure gradient between them (say to 22S) and the low pressure area at the equator. Lots of chances for 30+ knots with these.
> 
> ...


Wow, great explanation. Thanks kil. Do you have a write-up on the knockdown in your blog?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> as if voyaging around the world, hundreds of feet underwater with a nuclear pile powering everything is some sort of inherently safe, boring occupation.


Overall is was pretty boring..............except during the weekly fire (seemed to always be at my watch station and between midnight and 2 am)


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Don0190 said:


> Overall is was pretty boring..............except during the weekly fire (seemed to always be at my watch station and between midnight and 2 am)


Tedious, not boring.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Tedious, not boring.


The definition of blue water sailing - "long periods of tedium, punctuated by episodes of terror."


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Did my round the world while in the Navy and Commercial Maritime work.


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## Oregonian (Oct 4, 2011)

The longest non-stop passage thus far on my current boat, A Westsail 32, has been a 4000 mile passage from Punta Arenas, Costa Rica to Eureka, California. My longest non-stop passage, not on my boat, was on a Downeast 38, 5000 miles, from Okinawa to Astoria, Oregon.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Went out sailing today and when I left it was 38F, when I returned it was 42F.. Nice stiff cool breeze on the Maine Coast.. Still had on shorts and flip flops but was wearing an 800 fill power down sweater... 

What does that make me...?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> Went out sailing today and when I left it was 38F, when I returned it was 42F.. Nice stiff cool breeze on the Maine Coast.. Still had on shorts and flip flops but was wearing an 800 fill power down sweater...
> 
> What does that make me...?


Confused?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*Something in the blog*



smackdaddy said:


> Wow, great explanation. Thanks kil. Do you have a write-up on the knockdown in your blog?


It really was not that big a deal. I was sitting on the sidedeck tying down the dinghy some more (it was becoming a bit of a hovercraft above 50 knots). My only reaction as I was sitting there with water up to my chest was that it was very warm (I actually had both parts of my tether (long and short) attached. Water was trying to take me out through the lifelines but I had arms and legs holding on and never felt like I was going.

Went back to the cockpit which was full of same warm water and dirt from our two lettuce/greens planters so it was pretty muddy. Had to replace a solar panel (mounted on rail) and two stanchions. The chart table opened and stuff, including camera fell out and water came through companionway doors and landed on camera (guess we should have added the drop boards too (hindsight makes it so easy). The smash also caused the gears on the Monitor to disengage. Not too hard to fix at anchor but could not do it at sea since alignment was impossible (but critical).

I think stuff like this happens in long distance cruising. You just need to have a strong boat, be careful and try not to panic.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Maine Sail said:


> What does that make me...?


Hardcore.


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## johnshasteen (Aug 9, 2002)

Let's see, we've sailed Paloma from Puerto Isabella to Isla Mujeres, Galveston to Vera Cruz; sailed through, or should I say survived, two Force 10 storms at sea. Most of the water that gushed over the boat during the storms was known as green water - so, that must not be blue water sailing.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

johnshasteen said:


> Let's see, we've sailed Paloma from Puerto Isabella to Isla Mujeres, Galveston to Vera Cruz; sailed through, or should I say survived, two Force 10 storms at sea. Most of the water that gushed over the boat during the storms was known as green water - so, that must not be blue water sailing.


If you're an "armchair sailor"...I'm a duck.

And everyone knows I'm definitely not a duck.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*Two main options*



rpeebles said:


> Looking for tips as to best route, time, and references to published logs, experiences, books...whatever will get me off the couch and into blue water! Thanks in advance


Like a lot of things it depends. 
1. You can go up the coast of North America to Newfoundland and then cross to ireland. PROS - short, favorable currents and winds CONS - crummy weather, fog, cold water WHEN - leave Newfoundland perhaps in July
2. Go from US (Newport to Chesapeake) to Bermuda then Azores then Europe (take your pick -Britain, France, Spain, Portugal or Gibraltar to go to the Med PROS - much warmer and less chance of storms CONS - much, much longer and have to find a way through the Bermuda-Azores high which can be pretty calm WHEN - leave US in May perhaps

Which one to choose depends on where you are starting from; where you want to go; how important warm conditions are - my wife would always pick the southern route, she does not like cold; how does the boat like lighter winds


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

johnshasteen said:


> Let's see, we've sailed Paloma from Puerto Isabella to Isla Mujeres, Galveston to Vera Cruz; sailed through, or should I say survived, two Force 10 storms at sea. Most of the water that gushed over the boat during the storms was known as green water - so, that must not be blue water sailing.


I'd like to hear more about the Galveston to Vera Cruz trip. That is on my TO DO list.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

2008 crossed the Pacific ocean in my current boat. San Fran to Brizzy Oz.
longest single part of the trip San Fran to the Marqueasas. 23 and a bit days.
one big storm right at the begining with three nasties in total.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

Well so far I've gotten 30 crossings in the Poll, but only about 6 voyages described in the posts. !?!?!?

And about 30 posts about what is or is not "bluewater". If it took more than a day to get there it counts, I am most interested in what boat, what distance, and how long it took to get there, (and how well your boat handled the weather). Thanks again.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Last was:
September 2010 Alameda (San Francisco) to Dana Point (60 nm North of San Diego)
About 440 nm 6 days 20 hours, 4 hr stop in Morro Bay, about 36 hr layover at Oxnard to replace seasick crew.
Nice weather, light winds but freezing cold at night until Pt. Arguello, late afternoon wind went from 10 knots to 30-35 like someone flipped the on switch. Blowing snot and breaking waves with gusts to 45 until about 3 AM, boat was a 2002 Catalina 320.
Ran with a gale sail, boat did fine, I was toast however, sleepless, freezing, falling asleep on my feet in the middle of a gale. 
Hence the long stop for crew change next AM.
Oxnard to Dana 15 to 20 knots wind, about 23 hrs, maybe 110 nm with 1.5 knot current helping out.
Just your average coastal jaunt.


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## SecondWindNC (Dec 29, 2008)

I haven't circumnavigated or crossed an ocean, so I voted on Coastal. And that is where most of my sailing takes place. But I have been on several 4- to 5-day passages between North Carolina and the Bahamas, as much as ~200 miles offshore. I certainly consider those to have been bluewater trips and enjoyed every minute. Well, maybe not EVERY minute, when we were getting doused repeatedly with freezing-cold salt water, or pounding into a headwind, or hand-steering the whole way because someone thought a wheelpilot was appropriate for a 43-foot First-series Beneteau. But overall they have been incredible experiences, both for the journey and the destination. The other two boats on which I've made that trip are a Catalina 36 and a Saga 409.


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