# Here's a Great Read



## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

From Jon Eisberg on a delivery he just did from Annapolis to the BVI:

Well, that pretty much suckedâ€¦. (sorry, folks - this is a long one)

It's worth reading.

It also should spark some interesting discussion here about a few things. For one, all these problems on a Trintella? All at the same time I found that quite surprising, yet typical (all boats have problems, no matter what the brand and no matter what anyone says).


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

That is a great read and a cautionary tale of how our conveniences can be traps.

I am going in exactly the opposite direction getting fitted out for world cruising, and after reading this, I feel better about my decisions.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hmm... The more complicated the boat, the more stuff that can break... and making basic—very necessary—systems dependent on other more complicated ones is just asking for trouble. 

Electric heads that can are plumbed to flush with fresh water only—making you dependent on a watermaker to have enough water to flush the heads... not exactly bright. 

Electric furling motor died after just one reef... Think it was the main sail furling system, cause he called it a Leisure Furl.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

What Val said!

Interesting in so many ways. Thanks Daniel.


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## c40eb (Sep 12, 2002)

Cope, learn, cope, learn, cope, learn...and come home with a smile.

At least he seemed to keep his sense of humor...


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

*Seems to me almost like it was a shake down*

Trintellas are real boats, not like Catalinas or a Precision Marine product, so I have a feeling, though I don't know it for sure, that this may have been a sort of shake down delivery.  

I do agree with everyone that having critical systems dependent upon electrical or other highly complex systems presents a real risk. I will say this though, the two systems that have been referenced here (heads and furling boom) are not critical systems for a passage. I'm no doctor, but I'm pretty sure a broken electrical head will not preclude a three-guy crew from doing what they need to do. It may not be the most pleasant, but a bucket with salt water will work just fine.

As to the furling boom, you still can use the mainsail, it just becomes like a regular main (a problem with an in-mast system is a different story).

Anyway, the thing I found most interesting is that a $1 million boat with highly experienced crew can have the same exact order of magnitude types of troubles as a $400,000 production boat can have with a schmuck like me at the helm.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

That was fun. (reading)


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

What's his normal 30' boat? And does he detail how it's outfitted anywhere?


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Great Read.

Sounds like the author has a great attitude.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

c40eb said:


> Cope, learn, cope, learn, cope, learn...and come home with a smile.
> 
> At least he seemed to keep his sense of humor...


I'd laugh, too, if it wasn't my boat.

It's stories like this that make advocates of KISS evangelical.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Valiente said:


> I'd laugh, too, if it wasn't my boat.
> 
> It's stories like this that make advocates of KISS evangelical.


Damn straight, Val!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

It's An Old Shoe..........


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

I saw this post by Jon Eisenberg over at the CSBB forum ( SailboatOwners.com - Latest forum activity ) where he posts from time to time. I've actually been lurking about over there for longer then I have at sailnet so I have come to really enjoy Jon Eisenberg's posts. He is a delivery captain who has written a few articles that have been published in Cruising World and has been for many years. This post is typical in it's honesty, depth of detail and sense of humor.
Having said that, does anyone want to install electric heads that require fresh water for flushing on their boats or any of the other 'fancy' products that did not work so well for them?
Jon also posted about the recent sailboat rescue just below Block Island. He was as incredulous as the rest of us were at this story Inconceivable, that someone would have departed Narragansett Bay yesterday, bound for Puerto Rico... (pic)
The irony is that he has taken his own 30+ foot sailboat down to the islands and seems to like leaving the NJ coast in the Dec/Jan time frame. He seems to be able to do it single handed without setting off his EPIRB.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

There is a big lure for fresh water flush...smell! And the mixture of salt water and urine can clog up hoses pretty quick. The toilet did not cause the watermaker and genset to quit but they are interdependant.
The simple solution would be for a diverter valve to allow seawater flush if fresh water became scarce and a manual flush toilet to lessen the demand for electricity.

I was suprised by the number of failures and design flaws on such an expensive boat.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

CalebD said:


> Having said that, does anyone want to install electric heads that require fresh water for flushing on their boats or any of the other 'fancy' products that did not work so well for them?


My wife pointed out how ridiculous this was, and I had to explain to her what a "dinghy garage" was. Her comment was: "So the only thing between you and a heavy following sea is a gasket and a hinge? Sounds idiotic!"


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

xort said:


> There is a big lure for fresh water flush...smell! And the mixture of salt water and urine can clog up hoses pretty quick.


Yes, but you can fix this with vinegar rinses, periodic disassembly of the hoses and "beating" the salts out of them and so on.

To my mind, the simplicity of sea water flushing of a manual head beats the complexity, expense and power requirements of genset, watermaker and "toilet tankage".

A middle course in areas of daily rain (as is the case in much of the tropics) would be to have awnings and gaskets divert water to a "non-potable freshwater tank" from which you could divert water through the sink and head circuit...even the shower. Rainwater is plenty clean enough for this, and usually only requires filtering to get dust from the awning out of it.

One of the reasons I am changing my water tankage from two 100 gallon tanks to four 50 gallon tanks is to keep one tank as "semi-potable" for this kind of thing. But I think of it more as rinse water than drinkable water.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Valiente—

My head can be flushed using the head sink contents. Since I was my hands after using the head, that means I'm not wasting fresh water... and recycling the grey water from the sink.  Avoids the mineral deposits and the odor caused by sea life dying in the head.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Valiente-
> 
> My head can be flushed using the head sink contents. Since I was my hands after using the head, that means I'm not wasting fresh water... and recycling the grey water from the sink.  Avoids the mineral deposits and the odor caused by sea life dying in the head.


That's a good idea, too, but I'm not sure if there's enough water in the sink for this.

I have a Lavac...a great unit but it's NOT a "low-flow". Basically, the more arm action you put into it, the better the results. Actually, perhaps that will protect me from the stinkiness...the fact that it's a "pressure wash" with every use!

EDIT: You reminded me that we are more fastidious on land than on board in some ways. We flush the toilet with water left over from the shower if it's "yellow". A bucket of bath water from a three-foot height gets things moving faster than a flush and keeps the appliance cleaner as well.

I wonder if I can put a gimballed bath on board....?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Seems to work pretty well for me... I just fill the head sink to the top... and then pump it dry using the head... It'd probably work even better with a Lavac. 



Valiente said:


> That's a good idea, too, but I'm not sure if there's enough water in the sink for this.
> 
> I have a Lavac...a great unit but it's NOT a "low-flow". Basically, the more arm action you put into it, the better the results. Actually, perhaps that will protect me from the stinkiness...the fact that it's a "pressure wash" with every use!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Seems to work pretty well for me... I just fill the head sink to the top... and then pump it dry using the head... It'd probably work even better with a Lavac.


Jeez...are you HIDING in this thread?

The plumbing is pretty simple, and I was going to rig diverter valves anyway when I put in a sump for a shower, because you can use the Henderson pump as a manual bilge pump.

Excuse me, I have to go draw another diagram.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

This dog don't hide...


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

Don't underestimate the benefits of fresh water heads. We had two Vacuflush heads on our last boat, and they were awesome. They use very little water, lessened the number of through hulls needs, and no seawater smell. Plus, because they used so little water, it actually made our "apparent" holding tank capacity much larger. I'm missing all of that in a big way now that I'm back to traditional saltwater heads. For the moment. I think it best to have one manual seawater head on the boat in case everything goes wrong electrically/water capacity-wise, but a fresh water head actually is a very nice thing to have in terms of creature comfort. As with so many things, if you have never had one, careful before you judge. And if you don't want one, never charter a boat with one with the Admiral; you may have no choice when you return.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

It's not the freshwater head I object to, it's the need to _make_ freshwater for the head. As I said, if you have surplus freshwater from a raincatcher or a watermaker or the fact that you've got the complimentary tap at the Port Captain's personal dock, that's great. I would also say that even an occasional fresh water flush (or a vinegar flush or some other kind of "treatment") is going to do any shipboard plumbing a world of good by killing critters in the works.

But the thread of useability grows thin indeed if this is the case in my view, particularly if you have the usual flat bottomed hull and maybe 50 gallons of water tankage to play with, and if you have to have a series of electrical pumps to make it work. I have 200 gallons of water tankage, and if I throw a small watermaker in there, I might be one of "those guys" who can use a diverter valve to have a freshwater head, if only to cycle through "older" water in designated tanks.

Everything on our boat, with the exception of certain navigational and communications gear, is moving in the opposite direction of this particular example of modern comfortable cruising. I _have _pressure water, but I am going to a second set of taps for foot-pump water. I _have _a wired hot water heater, but I am plumbing it into the heat exchanger so that we will have "bath day" on "motoring day". I _have _A/C, but because the amperage to start it exceeds what I can make with inverter and Honda 2000 (well, it _might _kick, but that remains to be seen), I will generally not use it. The windlass is manual first, with electric backup, and so on. A huge Patay manual bilge pump has its pickup lower than the electrical Rule bilge pump, and so on.

All this isn't a Luddite impulse, but an attempt to have more than one way to accomplish onboard tasks, particularly ones that involve electricity. The reason for this is that _without exception_, cruising narratives and boat delivery stories tell of the gadgets that didn't work due to lack of robustness in design, the harshness of the saltwater environment, or because the wiring was just too damn complex to service in a pitching boat.

If it is a matter of throwing a few switches and turning a few valves to turn our passagemaker from a muscle-operated workshop to a gently humming den when the appropriate power and water manifest at a dock, why wouldn't we? It seems quite strongly to me that I can avoid a world of maintenance hurt thereby at very little "inconvenience".


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Valiente—

I see you're planning for the worst case—no electricity, but also giving yourself the option for the best—decadent sybaritic cruising.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I see you've discovered my evil plan...Yes, that is essentially it. I want to run a fridge and radar and a laptop and SSB, with maybe a DVD in the evening if the boy's been good.

In order to accomplish that, I need X amount of amp/hours in battery storage. If I want to avoid running the diesel just to run the alternator, I need 4X aH so that solar and wind alone keep me topped up.

This means old-fashioned, bulletproof muscle-powered pumps, levers and so on, in combination with low-draw LEDs, and laptops and entertainment devices that are charged...literally...while the sun shines so I don't draw down the banks during still nights at anchor.

That way, if I need to run RADAR and AIS and maybe SSB 24/7 (or if I _really _want more ice cubes...), I can do so without necessarily needing to run the engine.

I am happy to run the engine when moving offshore to discharge, or when motorsailing or when going into a reef-strewn lagoon, and I am happy to store the amps made then.

But running a "muscle boat" means I can live and cruise without a lot of extras, and I can use my fuel efficiently and without pissing off the entire anchorage.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sounds good to me...  keep up the good work... 


Valiente said:


> I see you've discovered my evil plan...Yes, that is essentially it. I want to run a fridge and radar and a laptop and SSB, with maybe a DVD in the evening if the boy's been good.
> 
> In order to accomplish that, I need X amount of amp/hours in battery storage. If I want to avoid running the diesel just to run the alternator, I need 4X aH so that solar and wind alone keep me topped up.
> 
> ...


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Merry Christmas to all, and I hope you in the "boatless zone" get a nice big book of sailing stories to read during the freeze-thaw cycle of the ice cubes for your beverages of choice.


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## genieskip (Jan 1, 2008)

I couldn't agree with Valiente more. That's why I just junked my heads, pumps, valves, holding tanks etc and installed a couple of composting toilets. Less smell than I had before and incomparable simplicity with the only moving part a bottle for the "liquid" to be taken on deck and poured overboard when offshore. And the "found" space of two 20 gallon holding tanks moved to the dumpster. Simple is best when offshore!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

This would seem like heresy to some, but on my old 33 footer Lake Ontario racer-cruiser, I junked the old water tanks (people just drink from bottles and wash their hands in a bucket of lake water) and exchanged the 15 gallon Monel gas tank for an 11 gallon Tempo tank. 

These changes took some weight out of the boat and simplified things on what is essentially used as a big daysailer. The loss of "range" in terms of the engine is irrelevant, given that I can carry two jerrycans if I want to motor down to the end of the lake, but I invariably sail and just use the engine arriving and leaving in harbours.

I left the 30 gallon holding tank in place, mind you!


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

back to fresh water flushing.

I'm thinking of adding 2 tanks for fresh water flush, one for each head. I can plumb a diverter to the main scuppers to feed the tanks. These tanks would be dedicated to flush only so if they pick up a bit of deck doo that's OK.

What about shower water? Could I plumb the shower pump to this tank also? It would probably overflow but that's OK, assuming I have a good overflow/vent line. I wonder what the soapy water would do sitting in that tank?


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

I guess this is getting off on a tangent from the original story line (a delivery gone bad), but as far as the electric heads are concerned:

One point I haven't seen mentioned here is the NOISE of the electric heads. I don't know whether they've been improved in recent years, but we routinely raft with another family that has an electric head. They are tremendously LOUD. Especially at night in a quiet anchorage. Every flush is like an alarm clock going off. I'm a light sleeper, but I'm also not even on the same boat. 

They would not be welcome aboard our boat.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

The last time I heard one, it sounded uncomfortably like an off-balance food processor. Which I suppose in a sense it is. The combination of grinding and water flow makes me think of a robot with indigestion.

A manual Lavac sounds no louder than a somewhat rapid snore.


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

It is true that the electric heads, and the Vacuflush also, are loud. At night, our rule is not to flush unless you have to, if you get my meaning.

Somehow we went from Jon Eisberg's very interesting and entertaining story about a delivery on a Trintella, to the details of flushing heads. Not sure what that says about Jon's story.


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## therapy23 (Jul 28, 2007)

danielgoldberg said:


> Well, that pretty much sucked&#8230;. (sorry, folks - this is a long one)
> 
> It's worth reading.
> 
> ).


You are right.
Thanks.


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## Leither (Sep 30, 2008)

A great read, indeed and full of alutary warnings for the unwary.  

It reminds me of a friend of mine who agreed to crew for a guy in his yacht club who was bringing a brand new 34' X Yacht from Denmark across to the UK. The crew consisted of the owner (very experienced) the owner's wife (not experienced), the owner's son (not at all experienced), my friend (very experienced) and a.n. Other (slightly experienced). Although they apparently had the latest weather forecast information, they ran into a severe storm about a third of the way across the North Sea. Everyone, apart from my mate and the slightly experienced guy, were completely disabled by sea sickness. The boat suffered various failures including loss of electrics caused by water ingress, rigging problems and others I can't recall. Ultimately, the engine failed due to water getting into the intake. They made most of the voyage under bare poles and were lucky to make it at all. In the worst of it, my mate was certainly sure that it was going to be his last voyage!

One consolation was that at least all of the snagging problems were identified and sorted!  

Stuart


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## Leither (Sep 30, 2008)

Sorry - "alutary" should. of course, read "salutary".


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Leither said:


> Sorry - "alutary" should. of course, read "salutary".


You do know you can go back and edit it to correct that...


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Valiente said:


> The last time I heard one, it sounded uncomfortably like an off-balance food processor. Which I suppose in a sense it is. The combination of grinding and water flow makes me think of a robot with indigestion.


As everyone knows, space is at a premium aboard a cruising boat. So I rigged a y-valve to our electric head and it does great double duty as a food processor.  The extra large bowl allows us to mix up some big batches of stuff when we have guests!  I could post some recipies on the provisioning list of you like.


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## Leither (Sep 30, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> You do know you can go back and edit it to correct that...


Thanks, SD, I did know that, but was in "e-mail mode" at that time and responded before I had put my brain in gear.........

Stuart


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Ahh... that explains it... so many others here have forgotten how to put their brain in gear before they type... 


Leither said:


> Thanks, SD, I did know that, but was in "e-mail mode" at that time and responded before I had put my brain in gear.........
> 
> Stuart


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## Leither (Sep 30, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> Ahh... that explains it... so many others here have forgotten how to put their brain in gear before they type...


I've noticed that.........


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You think they ever thought to use a bucket instead of the heads.
Sounds to me to be very unorganised


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