# Charter versus Share/partnership



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Wonder about chartering a boat versus owning share or partnership !
I am currently restoring a 1934 historic schooner in Napa,CA ,and sure enough run out of funds to finish her  
I try to find a parner (50%) but no luck !!
I realised that if somebody has this kind of money and time he/her will certainly buy his/her own boat  
On the other hand a lot of sailors have busy lives with lots of commitments (mortgage,family,work,kids education....), and can not realistically own a big boat  
So what the solution for them :
Own shares in a syndicate : that lower the cost of ownership but generally the boat is stuck in one place or is used for charter !
Charter a boat : good solution, you pay,fly to some exotic location, sail around and back home until next year  
But if you think twice and use a calculator ,after a few years it comes to a neat sum of money spend and you get no return on it  
So, I come to this idea to sold 1/12th shares of my boat for one month/year usage (it's not timeshare ! you are 1/12th owner of the boat !) .
The idea is to sail the boat intensively for a few years and sold her >
Work out the maths :
A $ 20,000.00/1/12th share should be worth much more than its original value even when we count expenses for maintenance, replacing equipment,.. on resale of the boat .
Now if you add to that the cost of chartering a 50' yacht one month every year at what?? $ 10,000.00 ?? you come way ahead  
Funnily enough It does not seem to atract any interest  
I wonder why ??
It seems to me (but I am partial  ) to be a fair and honest deal  
Anyway, your comments are asked !!
Here is my website so you can see what I am talking about :
www.mavourneen-mary.com 
Thanks


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I think it's just a question of peoples priorities. While the math may make sense to you, it would seem it doesn't to others. Also, there are a number of timeshare companies now where they can have use of a new boat, rather than an older, being refurbished one.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

PBzeer said:


> I think it's just a question of peoples priorities. While the math may make sense to you, it would seem it doesn't to others. Also, there are a number of timeshare companies now where they can have use of a new boat, rather than an older, being refurbished one.


Yes John ,but they are timeshare Cie !! You do not own part of the boat !!
New boat that's another thing ,personally I really do not like the kind of boats they built nowadays like Beneteau for example  
Mind you I am biased  
Thanks


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## soul searcher (Jun 28, 2006)

Lannig,
beautiful boat!
Bad thing about partnerships is scheadualing and for me the fact that there would be 11 more people capable of destroying my 1/12th. Just my control freakish opinion. I don't even like having company on our boat I feel like I always have to be watching them. I can,t picture in my mind letting other people take my boat out. It means to much to me.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

soul searcher said:


> Lannig,
> beautiful boat!
> Bad thing about partnerships is scheadualing and for me the fact that there would be 11 more people capable of destroying my 1/12th. Just my control freakish opinion. I don't even like having company on our boat I feel like I always have to be watching them. I can,t picture in my mind letting other people take my boat out. It means to much to me.


I do not intend to sold all the shares !!
In fact 3 partners will be perfect  
I can very well imagine the nightmare to try to accomodate everybody


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

I agree that your idea makes sense to you.....however you have to find 3-12 people that have the same idea. Good Luck.

We all want what we want when we want it! Not when we can get a bunch of other people to agree that it is OK for us to use it. In your case, with a very unusual boat for today, it gets even harder. Add to that the risk of others damaging a very expensive to fix boat, especially the week before your month starts, and things get very touchy.

You have not talked about maintenance costs and who does the maintenace. Slip fees, maintenace, etc. will probalby add 10-15% minimum a year, expecially in your beautiful and expensive part of the world.

I bought a boat and put it into a controlled charter business because I wanted to do a lot of day sailing and could not secure a slip for anything close to a reasonalbe price in my part of the world. Charter gave me a place to keep the boat, offset some of my costs, and still allowed me to do a lot of sailing on my own boat. Day sailing on 30-36' boats is not cost effective. However, if I was going to sail for a month a year, I would not buy a boat. Charter a boat anywhere in the world you want to go, select a newer or older boat based on what you want to pay, have no maintenace cost, mooring costs, insurance costs, and new toy costs....and walk away till the next time. 

Your passion is this project, and now you need someone else with the disease to help fund your passion. Good Luck.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The problem is working out the details for the maintenance and repairs. Who will be responsible for the repairs? Who will be doing the repairs? Whose time does the time required for the repairs come out of? 

Most people who are looking at a partial ownership of a boat, are looking to spend their time with the boat sailing it... and that it will be in reasonably good shape for their use, when it is time for them to use it. Your boat does not sound like that it is in such shape, since you are in the middle of restoring it.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I never say it was going to be easy  
She is a very special boat and I do need to find partners who are likely mind !
Regarding maintenance I will do all of it myself , the cost will be only on materials , slipway... my time is free  
We have spend around 5000hrs working on this boat and the cost so far for the people involved who were paid is around $ 60,000.00 !
My part was one full year 7 days/week !! 
I am pretty competent as I learned to built and repair boats in my youth , but I think more important is to know your limitations and when to pay somebody more competent to do specific jobs  
If this work has been done by a yard at say $ 80.00/hrs , it will have cost already $ 400,000.00  
When you start to restore these classic boats , or you are very rich or you have to do the job yourself ,if you can  
So yes special partners for special boat  
We are not the owners but the custodians of Mavourneen Mary


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Precisions regarding the schedule of work :
If we can restart work this spring , we need 4 months to finish her (that's me and my friend Pierre with the help of Girard !)
The idea is to get her ready for a run to Mexico in October  
After that it depends the program of navigation decided (ie: the partners !!)
American option :
Mexico,central America in Winter then back to SF for Master Mariners Race in May 2008 then North to Inland Passage !
European Option :
Mexico, then Panama around January, West indies, then Atlantic crossing to be back in Europe for Brest 2008 classic festival after certainly the Med !
Circumnavigation option 
Mexico , galapagos then Pacific !
It's a big planet with a lot of ocean


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, but if your off on a trip to Central America, exactly how is a "share owner" supposed to get to use the boat...when he/she may have no interest in sailing in that part of the world. 

Another possible way to finance the restoration of the boat is to setup a corporation for doing so, and hold fund-raisers and write grants. This is probably a better approach IMHO, as there will be no demands upon the boat from the "share owners". Given the age and construction of the boat, it may also be possible to setup a relationship with a local nautical or sailing museum.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog said:


> Yes, but if your off on a trip to Central America, exactly how is a "share owner" supposed to get to use the boat...when he/she may have no interest in sailing in that part of the world.
> 
> Another possible way to finance the restoration of the boat is to setup a corporation for doing so, and hold fund-raisers and write grants. This is probably a better approach IMHO, as there will be no demands upon the boat from the "share owners". Given the age and construction of the boat, it may also be possible to setup a relationship with a local nautical or sailing museum.


You raised some interesting points there  
We need to be in complete agreement between shareholders on the navigation program, the perfect solution is if they know each other and want to do the same thing  
Financing the restoration through a corporation is an interesting idea but I am not a US citizen or resident to start with,then the boat is actually british registred  
But I would like very much to know more about this !
Can you give me more details ??
You can email me or PM me if you want .
Thanks a lot !


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Last I checked, you do not need to be a US citizen to start a corporation in the United States. Even if the boat is registered under the Red Ensign, a local maritime museum may find it of interest, especially if the boat has any significant historical value.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks Sailingdog, can you find me more details of how to do that ??
That will be great !


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

lannig said:


> Thanks Sailingdog, can you find me more details of how to do that ??
> That will be great !


I could... but I would have to invoice you for my time... If you can't get the information you need, after what I've given you... I'd say you're really beyond help.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Pardon me for being blunt, for I believe you are a sincere and talented guy who truly loves this boat. I've been through your whole website and note that you had the boat up for sale in its current state for $120,000. It apparently generated no interest at THAT price. Now you are selling shares for a total price of $240,000 or double the price that did not sell. The boat in a finished state in my opinion would not sell for anything close to that in the market. Finding 12 partners is a lot more difficult than finding one...especially for a boat that has a very limited market appeal. If I were you...I'd try to get a movie star out there to invest in "jane's" boat as you might have more luck with that than finding 12 people that are willing to pay twice the price that DIDN'T sell the boat to one person. 
Again...sorry for the bluntness...just my opinion since you asked for them.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Just a rectification , she has alway been for sale as is for 120,000.00 Pounds Sterling not $ !! which reflect more her estimated value on european market !
Basically prices in USA and Europe are the same in numbers but in the USA it's in $  
And with an exchange rate at GBL 1= 1.95$ ,it hurts !!
Boats like this one are a one off and are notoriously difficult to sold  
I think ,may be I am wrong, that the fact she is not finished completely is a big no no !
Hence the theory to find a few partners to finish her , use her and sold her on european market  
I know it will take time and she needs to have good exposure via media, rallies....
But if somebody want to buy her, I am ready to come and finish her to the new owner specs  
Do not mind the bluntness ! make you think more clearly !!
Thanks

PS: will check my website to see if there is a mistake on the price


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Lannig...you're right...no mistake but mine. 
Neverheless...my comments on value still apply. If it is tough to find one person to invest in an old wooden boat that is being restored...it will be even tougher to find 12 even with the price split. Nevertheless...good luck!


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> If it is tough to find one person to invest in an old wooden boat that is being restored...it will be even tougher to find 12 even with the price split.


Yes; this is what I was thinking... IMHO most boats are difficult to sell or fraction with the large surplus of boats on the US market. Only a very small percentage of boat owners would even consider owning a wood hull sailboat; not to mention one 50+ feet long. You need to also realize that a boat that is not currently operational has much less "value" in the eyes of those considering spending anything on a boat.

I think the best thing to consider doing is getting her surveyed as-is by a competent surveyor who will respect the fact that you have invested so much time/money into her. If you are not already mortgaged on the hull you could then go to a mortgage company and request a loan against the hull so you can get the boat completed. This might be a long-shot; but if you are refused the loan at least you will have some documentation on the "value" so can provide a basis for selling fractional shares in her.

I have seen this boat in the water at NVM. Last summer I was working on my boat there. It is a beautiful boat and it would be nice to see her sailing on SF Bay when she is finished! You might contact some of the SF area yacht clubs (St Francis, Corinthian, Golden Gate, etc) and find out if there are any rescue foundations within their clubs that can assist you financially or in labor to complete her. There are many, many rich people in the SF Bay Area; if you are lucky you might get put in contact with a 'philanthropist'!

The other thing I might mention is that if you were to sell shares in the boat it should be done through USCG documentation; and ownership rights should be a part of the vessel document. If you do this you can sell fractional shares of any percentage you wish; maybe sell two 1/12'th shares and make the boat available to those people for 1 month of sailing and living onboard each summer. Regardless I think the boat needs to be completed in order to attract potential buyers.

Another way to go would be to make the boat into a charter business. There are several wood hull sailboats in this size range doing this; and the owners are living their dream while getting paid to have other people onboard helping them sail their dreamboat!

You might also consider advertising in the Latitude38 classifieds ( www.latitude38.com ); maybe you could talk to the editor about getting a story written that would help you gain some support in finishing the boat. There is a huge sailing community in the SF Bay Area; Lat38 is the best way to reach someone in SF who might be interested in your boat.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

KeelHaulin said:


> Yes; this is what I was thinking... IMHO most boats are difficult to sell or fraction with the large surplus of boats on the US market. Only a very small percentage of boat owners would even consider owning a wood hull sailboat; not to mention one 50+ feet long. You need to also realize that a boat that is not currently operational has much less "value" in the eyes of those considering spending anything on a boat.
> 
> I think the best thing to consider doing is getting her surveyed as-is by a competent surveyor who will respect the fact that you have invested so much time/money into her. If you are not already mortgaged on the hull you could then go to a mortgage company and request a loan against the hull so you can get the boat completed. This might be a long-shot; but if you are refused the loan at least you will have some documentation on the "value" so can provide a basis for selling fractional shares in her.
> 
> ...


Thanks Keelhauling !
Sorry not to post back fast but I was not on the forum these last 2 days !
Glad to know you have seen her in Napa ! Great marina ! Nice peoples !
There was a feature on her in Lattitude 38 in 2002 under her old name : Landfall II ,about the former owner who start restoring her !
USCG registration is a big NO for me as I am not a us citizen !!
I am in discussion at the moment with a wanabee partner  
So we see what's going to happen !!
Charter does not realy interest me  
But thanks very much for your advices  
They are appreciated  
And if you happen to know some "philantropist" ??


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