# Circumnavigation without instruments



## shandk25 (Feb 22, 2013)

Marvin Creamer will be celebrating the 30th anniversary of his unmatched triumph of sailing around the world using no navigational instruments. (The Globestar Voyage)

Rowan University will be hosting "A Voyage with Marvin Creamer" with a VIP reception available to meet and interact with the still active sailor.
Date: Saturday, March 23, 2013
Location: The River Winds Restaurant, West Deptford, NJ.

This is an open event and I encourage anyone interested in attending to inquire with me for more details.

All proceeds of the event go to a scholorship fund in Marvin's name.The recipient of the annual award will not only demonstrate good grades, as in most scholarships, but will also share the character and attitude of Dr. Creamer: intellectual curiosity and spirit of adventure. The award will go to a single graduating senior within the department who best personifies these ideals.

Thank you for your interest.


----------



## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

Unmatched? Pretty sure it used to happen all the time when sailing ships were the pinnacle of technology.


----------



## shandk25 (Feb 22, 2013)

Let's just say unmatched in recorded history if you would like to be technical


----------



## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

I think I know about these voyages precise because they WERE recorded.

How about unmatched in modern times?


Also, I am now realizing I sound like an *******. Try and read my posts with eye towards sarcasm and not smarmyness. My bad, dude. Welcome to Sailnet.


----------



## shandk25 (Feb 22, 2013)

Ok, excuse my wording. Either way, let's not detract from Marvin Creamer's brilliant sailing accomplishment.


----------



## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

I dunno, I cruised Lake Ontario's south shore once! :laugher


Seriously though, circumnavigating sans instruments is pretty impressive! What an amazing experience that must have been! I bet he has a lot of valuable information to share with folks.


----------



## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

not even a timepiece? Wow. Did he use popsicle sticks to make a crude sextant and latitude-sail?

I'm impressed. did he have electricity? radio? those aren't instruments.


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Why would you do something in a more primitive way than the Vikings and expect me to be impressed ?


----------



## shandk25 (Feb 22, 2013)

nolatom said:


> not even a timepiece? Wow. Did he use popsicle sticks to make a crude sextant and latitude-sail?
> 
> I'm impressed. did he have electricity? radio? those aren't instruments.


He did have a radio and a gas stove. He kept an hour glass on the boat so there would be no arguement over things like night watch. He did not have a sextant, compass, watch etc.

SurabyaKid on EricsonYachts forum has said "In an age where our Navy Midshipman are no longer taught celestial navigation and 14 year olds with all the latest technologies known to man vie for the title of youngest to circumnavigate, I found the whole story very refreshing. "


----------



## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

Here is the link to the story of his voyage;
http://www.globestar.org/feat.htm


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

KIVALO said:


> Seriously though, circumnavigating sans instruments is pretty impressive!


Pretty stupidly dangerous and irresponsible nowadays.

But movies like Jackass shows people can do moronic things and thing they are good.


----------



## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> *Pretty stupidly dangerous and irresponsible nowadays.*
> 
> But movies like Jackass shows people can do moronic things and thing they are good.


I completely disagree.


----------



## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Josiah Slocum did this with just a Sextant and an alarm clock for a Chronometer. Plus he was the first recorded single hander to sail around the world.

And the polynisians(SP?) Did this all the time and hit the tiny islands that they were sailing for. The Vikings had a Sun Stone and a lodestone. One was for noon sight and the other acted like a compass.


----------



## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

Marvin Creamer a Geography professor at Glassboro State College (now Rowan University) did a number of proof of concept crossing of the Atlantic without navigation instruments or charts. The intent was to show that it was possible for early explorers to cross oceans only with knowledge of their environment.

His later circumnavigation, with crew and port stops but with an hour glass as his only navigation instrument was a further demonstration of his hypothesis.

Maybe others have also completed such a journey in the distant past, which was part of what he was demonstrating as a possibility, but I don't think this has been achieved by any other sailor in the recent past.


----------



## SailingJackson (Jan 1, 2011)

I guess that's great, but I'm not quite sure what the point is. Would we celebrate someone who went to the dentist to extract a tooth with nothing more than a rock and a bit of sinew hammer? There is no doubt that it is possible to accomplish tasks in the old ways, working without the modern devices that make our efforts quicker, easier, and safer. There is also no doubt that doing so involves certain risks, as danger is increased.

There must be some way to draw a line between the efforts of bravery and perseverance versus the efforts of recklessness and stupidity. I'm just not sure how to decide which side of the fence any particular endeavor is on.

GJ


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

People will do anything for notoriety. This would seem to be his major accomplishment. Now we need someone to do it blindfolded.


----------



## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

I can hardly believe that anyone with an IQ over 30 wouldn't agree that this was quite a feat of seamanship .


----------



## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

kjango said:


> I can hardly believe that anyone with an IQ over 30 wouldn't agree that this was quite a feat of seamanship .


I have been lurking for a few days on this thread. I would like to see it get better? I understand it was quite a feat of seamanship ! I did check that he had back up instuments and other reduncey. I have respect for the other sailer posting that has done a cercumnavigation. He also took a huge risk in todays world and did well. His risk is far beyond what I am willing at this time. Why even leave dry land if you do not have to ? Why fly a plane or ride in one ? Drive a car ? leave the house? If you have to explain they will not understand ! Kind regards, Lou


----------



## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

If its such a non accomplishment to sail, with practically no instrumentation, completely around the planet, then how come we spend thousands on electronic gizmos to tell us exactly where we are at any given moment?

Sure this was unnecessary given today's technology, but it shows a level of proficiency in celestial navigation not often found in today's world. Plus I bet it was a pretty satisfying accomplishment to learn to navigate accurately sans instruments. I think it would be interesting to here the story behind it.


----------



## blutoyz (Oct 28, 2012)

My $.02 on this....
This guy is a frican ROCKSTAR!!!!

I am not a fan of academics because many that I have met are not nearly as intelligent as that piece of paper tells them they are. There is a difference between education and intellect. This professor most definitely put his money where his mouth is!!

Again...just my $.02 so no offense meant to any academics out there, the intelligent ones will see my point.:laugher


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I happen to see a big difference between leaving home with 14 GPS devices and using nothing not even a compass


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Ulladh said:


> Marvin Creamer a Geography professor at Glassboro State College (now Rowan University) did a number of proof of concept crossing of the Atlantic without navigation instruments or charts. The intent was to show that it was possible for early explorers to cross oceans only with knowledge of their environment.


If someone sailed west across the Atlantic and missed the Americas, now that would be impressive.

But sailing west around the globe with the trades and currents all heading in your direction, well . . . . I'm not sure that's all that impressive. He probably didn't care how long it took and (probably) nor was he that concerned about where he made landfall. Given such an open canvas, many things are possible.

I say probably because to be frank, I haven't the interest to read the material. If he mostly made landfall within 30 miles of where he expected to, that would be impressive.



Ulladh said:


> His later circumnavigation, with crew and port stops but with an hour glass as his only navigation instrument was a further demonstration of his hypothesis.


Brave crew, to be sure.



Lou452 said:


> I did check that he had back up instuments and other reduncey.


Really? What were the back-up instruments backing up? The absence of any instruments? Interesting concept indeed.


----------



## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Sheesh, tough crowd.

I think it's extremely admirable that this guy and his crew circumnavigated using only visual clues to guide them, such as stars, waves, water color, birds, cloud formations, the sun, planets, and currents.

The fact that he had navigational instruments on board but stowed away shows that he was not being reckless and irresponsible. He had a goal in mind and he completed it.


----------



## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Omatako said:


> But sailing west around the globe with the trades and currents all heading in your direction, well . . . . I'm not sure that's all that impressive.


Actually, looks like he went east, rounding cape of good hope and cape horn.


----------



## ShoalFinder (May 18, 2012)

I cannot believe people are hating on this guy.

Sure, modern navigation tools are great. But if you don't believe that they have become a crutch then you should do a little experiment. Use GPS in your car everywhere you go for one month. Everywhere. After one month, turn it off. You will discover that you pay very little attention to the world around you when GPS is doing all of your thinking for you. You will have trouble even remembering which turns you took to get where you went. You drove until GPS said to turn and you didn't have to make those decisions on your own, therefore there is no reason you would remember making them.


Now, delete every speed dial in your phone. Delete the address book. Make every call by actually remembering and dialing the numbers. Do you remember when that was normal? It is shocking to discover how many numbers you used to know and now you can't even call your wife's phone because you aren't sure of two of the numbers or what sequence they go in. God help you in an emergency situation where you have to borrow someone else's phone. Likely, the only number you'd have in your head is 911.


I'm not saying we should all abandon navigational aids. But I am saying that this man proved that they are all indeed crutches. How much of a crutch depends on your skills and abilities without them.


What good is a sextant if you don't have a book to tell you what the readings mean? What good is a chart without a compass? A chart with no soundings? The answer to each of these depends entirely on what you actually understand versus which references you depend on for that information.

In short, what we call useful tools were developed by someone else. Well, once upon a time nobody had developed them. People still got around. Amazing, isn't it?


----------



## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Oh my but those tracklines spanning the bottom of the Indian and Pacific Oceans look lonely.

And without even the occasional reassurance of a noon sight or bumming a fix by radio from a passing ship to show you where you are. Then you have to worry about making landfall without hitting the land itself, much like the voyages in "the Search for Longitude" back in the days of the testing for a reliable chronometer.


----------



## flandria (Jul 31, 2012)

Much is to be admired here. I am one of those who is much indebted to our modern navigation instruments. We can only marvel even more at the skill of the stone-age Polynesians who, for whatever reason, decided to settle on remote islands (how did they ever find them?) and successfully navigated between distant islands and archipelagos. I read some while ago that a lone surviving Polynesian navigator allowed his "skills" to be recorded for posterity because of the all too real fear that they would soon, and forever be lost. Such knowledge of course cannot be "turned on" by a push-button on an electronic device but takes time to learn and absorb, let alone apply with the confidence needed to ensure (repeated and accurate) safe landfall.


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

caberg said:


> Actually, looks like he went east, rounding cape of good hope and cape horn.


If this voyage was done without instruments on the boat then I stand corrected - that is indeed impressive. But it also inspires me to read the material on it because I have reservations.

An example of them is that when he got south of Australia he suddenly turns left and sails straight up to a landfall. This after sailing for at least a month, probably more, completely out of sight of land. I wonder what it was that let him believe that by turning left he was in line with a port on the Australian coast. Remember the claim that he had "an hour glass as his only navigation instrument "

The course that is shown on the chart actually could not have been done better with all the instruments that modern science can muster. Many of the single handed racers that have the best instrumentation and comms that money can buy would be proud of sailing a course this good.

I'm not yet convinced.


----------



## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

One more time if you have to explain they will not understand. I posted about Ernest Shackelton They hated on him and a man that is going to try to do just the sailing voyage this year 100 years later. No surprize this kind of crew thinks going around the world without instruments is.... My my at least check what the man did before you post. Then you will know what back ups and redundecey means. He was not a fool. With some of this attitude why leave dry land. I would not have the stones to try what he did, I should have stayed lurking. Kind regards, Lou


----------



## shandk25 (Feb 22, 2013)

Not to mention he rounded Cape Horn with a broken tiller. For all of you who are both fascinated and in disbelief - come listen and interact with Marv - I can assure you, these details are still vivid and easily recalled. 

Date: Saturday, March 23, 2013
Location: The River Winds Restaurant, West Deptford, NJ.
Search: "Marv Creamer 30th anniversary" for more details!


----------



## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Pretty stupidly dangerous and irresponsible nowadays.
> 
> But movies like Jackass shows people can do moronic things and thing they are good.


No way. We neeed more expeditions like this. I remember that voyage from when I was a kid. it inspired me to learn how to navigate with out tech. instruments. We had an electrical fire on board crossing to the Bahamas and lost all electronics. I was impressed on how my grandfather could DR us the rest of the trip. We bought a hand held vhf off some one in freeport, and spent the rest of the spring and into summer with nothing but a compass and a cabin light. I think it's great you newbies have these gizmos to get you out there sailing the world on your own with out the years of seamanship training it used to take. But I feel it's stupid dangerous and irresponsible to go out there completely dependent on gadgets and satalites and electirical crap with out a strong foundation in old school navigation and seamanship. My 72 year old father in law can't tie a single knot because he's alway's had some kind of strap with a clip on it. To me those plasitc electrical device things are just neat devices to have, not something to depend on.


----------



## ShoalFinder (May 18, 2012)

If anyone really wants to feel bad, consider that the survival of nearly the entire westernized population on Earth depends upon electricity. Most people have very little actual ability. What we call knowledge today is really based upon the application and use of technology.


Can you grow your own food- if there were no stores to buy seeds?
Can you store your food over the long term, when the seasons don't allow for fresh food?
Can you hunt? Preserve the meat?
Can you build shelter that is more than a pile of branches?
Can you navigate with dead reckoning, over land as well as water?


If the power went out and never came back on, the vast majority of the population would revert to Caveman status in a year's time. And that is only true if most aren't killed for their food in that first year.

In the not too distant past, the loss of all of these modern conveniences would be called.... Tuesday. What we would call Survival Mode today is not at all about actual survival. It is about losing our crutches, without which we realize how truly helpless we have become as humans.

It is not surprising that a man who would sail around the world with no instruments is called crazy, because most people believe the correct thing to do in any situation is to call for help. I'm not saying it isn't: what I'm saying is that people do amazing things when there is no help to be had. People who have no expectation of relying on others instead learn to depend upon themselves and they gain the skills necessary to do so.

And yes, lots more people died in the old days which is why modern crutches were invented, but that does not make them necessary. "Necessary" is based on your own skill set. When they are merely redundant, they become Nice To Have conveniences.


----------



## flandria (Jul 31, 2012)

To repeat: I agree with all the comments supporting the greatest possible degree of independence when navigating. As a Great Lakes sailor, I have learned (I think) all methods except... the sextant... However, the ready availability of all our new gizmos does give me pause, and lately I make a more determined effort to rely less on them. I won't throw them overboard, though!


----------



## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> An example of them is that when he got south of Australia he suddenly turns left and sails straight up to a landfall.


Well, he obviously just waited until he could smell vegemite wafting in the north wind and hung a louie.


----------



## KIVALO (Nov 2, 2011)

This is a good post.



Capt.aaron said:


> No way. We neeed more expeditions like this. I remember that voyage from when I was a kid. it inspired me to learn how to navigate with out tech. instruments. We had an electrical fire on board crossing to the Bahamas and lost all electronics. I was impressed on how my grandfather could DR us the rest of the trip. We bought a hand held vhf off some one in freeport, and spent the rest of the spring and into summer with nothing but a compass and a cabin light. I think it's great you newbies have these gizmos to get you out there sailing the world on your own with out the years of seamanship training it used to take. But I feel it's stupid dangerous and irresponsible to go out there completely dependent on gadgets and satalites and electirical crap with out a strong foundation in old school navigation and seamanship. My 72 year old father in law can't tie a single knot because he's alway's had some kind of strap with a clip on it. To me those plasitc electrical device things are just neat devices to have, not something to depend on.


----------



## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

Good to see this thread got better ! Sailing is a test for skill. A feel for the past. Some respect for all. Seems to me this voyage made the grade. He found a level and did a great job. A unique adventure. It is a shame the boat was cut up but that is life. I have enjoyed learning about this. It lets us dream. I am not going to bash tech stuff. It is great it makes life easy. It is just fun to do it the hard way just to see what it takes from time to time. Regards, Lou


----------



## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Barquito said:


> Well, he obviously just waited until he could smell vegemite wafting in the north wind and hung a louie.


You'll get no vegemite smell from the Nullabor Desert - only sheer cliffs, a lee shore and no hope of rescue. As many ship captains discovered at their peril during the late 18th and 19th centuries, if you have any choice at all, the south cost of Australia isn't really something you want to make landfall on - so if that was really his course, he'd have needed to pick a really nice day! 

Having said that, of all the approaches to make, the one shown on the map isn't the quickest way to go, but is probably the most sensible without instruments (basically coastal-cruising around Tasmania and north to Sydney) - but - if, after leaving the Bight, he'd been blown too far south and missed sighting Tasmania altogether, we'd not be reading about his voyage - ever. The old ship captains often referred to missing Tasmania as "sailing off the edge of the world".

IMHO if he'd claimed he dropped in to Melbourne on his way to Sydney, without using instruments, THEN you could be fairly sure the entire voyage was a fable. As it stands, I think you'll find his route was very carefully selected....


----------



## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

You do realize this was done in 1984, near 30 years ago. Reading what I have I must say there was a lot of luck involved, but with the back up of instruments locked in a box just in case. 
I must admit that on my Pacific crossing there were some times I would only check my position once or twice a day, but only when well away from land. I did use the compass a lot more than I would have thought, this I found out when the compass light failed.


----------



## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

I sailed with a third mate many years ago that was working on the President lines, way before electronic navigation.
Any way, during the winter they sailed the trunticated GC route from San Franciso to Tokyo JPN. A few of those trips they had overcast skys for the entire trip and had to DR using the previous Navigation logs for time, speed & course to steer the entire trip... never getting a celestrial position for those trips.
So learn DR Navigation. And pratice it always when underway. It will help you find the port you are shooting for without all of those modern gagets. 
You only need to know: Time, Speed and Course to find your way.


----------



## flandria (Jul 31, 2012)

Boasun.... Yes, you are correct. However, things are a little more complicated and uncertain when you add drift (current) and leeway (especially when traveling under sail). After a few miles, depending on conditions, your actual course vs. DR course may start to diverge noticeably. I'll omit small "discrepancies" in steering the course... Your point that you may well be without celestial observations for a prolonged time is certainly valid and thus one should always be prepared for "the worst" and keep a DR log up at all times, regardless of other gadgets available.


----------



## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

It was not all that long ago when everyone used DR. The use of RDF and LORAN are fairly recent although they seem like ancient stuff now. I used to enjoy the challenge of navigating in poor visibility across the gyre in Block Island Sound, trying to avoid the Sow and Pigs It's probably only in the last 30 years that sailors have slacked off in their use of DR with the incredible marvel of GPS integrated into plotting gadgets.


----------



## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

flandria said:


> Boasun.... Yes, you are correct. However, things are a little more complicated and uncertain when you add drift (current) and leeway (especially when traveling under sail). After a few miles, depending on conditions, your actual course vs. DR course may start to diverge noticeably. I'll omit small "discrepancies" in steering the course... Your point that you may well be without celestial observations for a prolonged time is certainly valid and thus one should always be prepared for "the worst" and keep a DR log up at all times, regardless of other gadgets available.


That's true. I cross the straights of Fla. and then the Yucatan Channel all the time under sail. The currents are on the paper chart and I make a vector, calculate the set and drift, average my steering course based on compass swing. The trick is to do it often, twice an hour when you are really in the throws of the strongest currents and running down a big sea. I DR and look at a hand held GPS a couple of times a day to see how close I am to correct. Never been more than a few miles off which is close enough to get with in sight of land, at which point you are piloting by points of land, LOPS off of land marks etc.


----------



## JimAndTricia (Feb 28, 2013)

I agree with Shandk25. Let's not diminish his accomplishment. Anyone who steps off the end or normalcy for whatever reason, as long as they don't hurt anyone else by doing so, has my respect. We need more people in this world who are willing to be different. I would think that back in the days of the Vikings, anyone who pulled out a little piece of plastic with a bunch of numbers on it and relied on it to cross oceans would be considered pretty out there too.


----------



## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

If we ever get another solar flare like this one (or close):




all the satellites will be toast, rendering our GPS systems totally useless. Knowing at least the minimum about traditional navigation seems like a must for any open sea sailor.


----------



## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Capt.aaron said:


> That's true. I cross the straights of Fla. and then the Yucatan Channel all the time under sail. The currents are on the paper chart and I make a vector, calculate the set and drift, average my steering course based on compass swing. The trick is to do it often, twice an hour when you are really in the throws of the strongest currents and running down a big sea. I DR and look at a hand held GPS a couple of times a day to see how close I am to correct. Never been more than a few miles off which is close enough to get with in sight of land, at which point you are piloting by points of land, LOPS off of land marks etc.


FWIW, it is simply very unsafe (and might even be considered extremely stupid!) to approach the southern coastline of Australia without an accurate fix and using DR only... at any time in history, including now.

IMO, if you must do it because you have no other alternative about the only way to approach is the way this guy did, but even then, given that you're entering what is effectively a big bay on a lee shore it's a pretty risky business, because as soon as you fix your position (and there are no landmarks to do that with) you need to turn around and get the hell outa there ASAP - and, congratulations, you just added hundreds of miles to your course.

The alternative is to stand on and hope for the best.. but very few who have tried this survived. They don't call this the "Shipwreck Coast" for nothing. 

This is what it looks like at low tide on a nice day:


----------



## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Boasun said:


> So learn DR Navigation. And practice it always when underway. It will help you find the port you are shooting for without all of those modern gadgets.
> You only need to know: Time, Speed and Course to find your way.


Yes but the guy we're discussing never had any instruments. How do you get time, speed and course without instruments? DR without instruments is like a party without people. It ain't gonna happen.

Statistically, the current that runs along the equator moves more water than the collective volume of every river in the world. How do you DR that without instruments?

I said it in one of my earlier posts and I agree with SimonV, this voyage had a great deal of luck involved. And Simon, your checking "once or twice a day" amounts to over 500 possible checks that the instrument-less circumnavigator couldn't do. Remember he was at sea for one and a half years. Go figure.

Thor Heyerdahl did a significant voyage on a papyrus (or something) raft and was also declared a super-navigator. But if he hadn't of drifted into the island his voyage ended on, he would have drifted into another with the same claim to fame - eventually he had to hit something. He may have been dead by then but he would have made landfall somewhere .

DR is a science that requires numbers - no numbers, no DR. Simple.


----------



## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Omatako said:


> Yes but the guy we're discussing never had any instruments. How do you get time, speed and course without instruments? DR without instruments is like a party without people. It ain't gonna happen.


Well, the guy did have an hourglass... and presumably enough pencils and paper to keep track. Therefore it is possible to get your numbers like this:
* Time: a really rough idea of the time of day by picking local noon on a good day using a stick at arms length as a home-made crossstaff and re-setting your hourglass-chronometer by that. (worked for the Polynesians..)
* Speed: a WAG using the old method of occasionally dropping something overboard and counting how long it takes to pass a known distance along the hull. (well you'll get a number to write down, anyway!). 
* Course: Knowing the sun's track across the sky for the time of year during the day and picking your angle to the Pole Star/Southern Cross by night ("two points off the starbd crosstree!") it is possible to know roughly where you're headed.
.. none of this will give you an *accurate* DR position by any means - but it's better than nothing. 

Yep, he certainly needed a lot of luck - and, like Thor Heyerdahl, would have relied on eventually running into something, but don't forget that common practice for hundreds of years before the sextant was invented was to "run your easting down"... 

EDIT: One thing about hourglasses is that they do wear out with repeated use and get more and more inaccurate every day. I assume he took a box of them and had some system for swapping them out.. like the old windjammer captains did.


----------



## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

As far as the south coast of Australia goes, just don't go there. Sail past it and turrn north when you don't see it any more. Drive down there from Sydney and have a look from the top. ( at low tide, that is an awesome photo)

Speed, I still use a chip log my Grandfather built. Thorw it off the stearn and count.
Direction, well the sun comes up and goes down and if the stars are out Pleadease (sp) alway's points east. ( I use this all the time because my compass light is still broke.)

Thor Hyeredahl. Who here has besides me worked for him. I know his niece and dated her Daughter as well. He was a freak'n genius. And he broke the mold on isolation vs. transmigration through observation and proof through re-enactment voyages.

The argument here is more about not having a foundation in the art/science
of basic simple deductive reasoning. Using what you have available in nature, coupled with some simple and non-problamatic instruments, like a compass and an Timex. Not needing 10,000 people to get up and go to work keeping the interactive systems in check just so you can know where you are.


----------



## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Capt.aaron said:


> As far as the south coast of Australia goes, just don't go there. Sail past it and turrn north when you don't see it any more. Drive down there from Sydney and have a look from the top. ( at low tide, that is an awesome photo)


Hey, it ain't that bad!.... (actually, on second thought, maybe it is) but it's all that some of us have to play in. 

To be safe you just need to:
1. Have checked the weather forecast AND the tides before exiting "The Rip".
2. Have nice day (for the purposes of this exercise, storms, rain, high winds, night and/or fog are NOT classed as "nice days"!)
3. Hope like H*** you know EXACTLY where you are in relation to those cliffs at all times!

 

EDIT: Please ignore Aaron's well-meaning advice to just "sail past it and turrn north when you don't see it any more". Here's a listing I found of a few who've tried that over the decades...


----------



## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Hartley18 said:


> Hey, it ain't that bad!.... (actually, on second thought, maybe it is) but it's all that some of us have to play in.
> 
> To be safe you just need to:
> 1. Have checked the weather forecast AND the tides before exiting "The Rip".
> ...


Indeed, and with any luck I will have the opportunity to ignore my own advice and visit the area. If I find my self there I will certainly have 2 chart plotters, a radar, ais, paper chart, 3 compass', rdf, and a flock of caged sparrow's to let fly free and follow!


----------



## jlaprad (Feb 27, 2013)

Thanks for posting, very cool story.


----------



## Zoya (Jan 15, 2013)

Truly amazing....


----------



## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Capt.aaron said:


> Indeed, and with any luck I will have the opportunity to ignore my own advice and visit the area. If I find my self there I will certainly have 2 chart plotters, a radar, ais, paper chart, 3 compass', rdf, and a flock of caged sparrow's to let fly free and follow!


Well, if you ever do, given that you'll be adequately prepared, be sure to let me know you're coming and I'll show you around!...


----------



## rvharvey (Feb 27, 2008)

I would argue that no person reading these entries could do what Marvin Creamer did on Saturday. At 97 years of age, he kept a crowd of people spellbound with his detailed narration of a voyage he made in '82-'84 -- without notes or a teleprompter! I have known Marvin for years and never cease to be amazed! Ralph Harvey, still webmaster of globestar.org, but the site is being transferred to Rowan U.


----------



## c. breeze (Feb 18, 2013)

All if this criticism strikes me as blatant ageism.


----------



## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

At any age it is a joy and a blessing to get to do something you like and then to do it well. Kind Regards, Lou


----------



## Grunthrie (May 2, 2013)

I may be a pretty new sailor, but I am not at all new to DR thanks to the USMC Coxswain's Course and have nothing but respect for this guy. I like to minimize my use of my GPS when I am out on the water or in the woods, using it and it's precious battery life as a backup to my "analog" compass and course.

Haters gonna hate.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

I was intrigued by:



Capt.aaron said:


> Direction, well the sun comes up and goes down and if the stars are out Pleadease (sp) alway's points east. ( I use this all the time because my compass light is still broke.)


Do you mean the Pleiades? Why would they be always in the East? Makes no sense to me. Care to explain?

The only stars I would expect to be in a constant direction is Polaris and the Southern Cross (kind of).

(I was also impressed by you knowing Thor Heyerdahl's family. Way cool!)


----------



## sailpower (Jun 28, 2008)

To all the detractors keep in mind that when he did it there was no GPS for civilians, SATNAV was rare and LORAN was not worldwide.

So when he did it without a compass or a sextant he was not giving up all the geewhiz stuff that we have today.

The compass and the sextant would have been his backup unless he had the money for an expensive SATNAV.

Hard not to see what an amazing accomplishment it was.

I wonder how many who are knocking this guy have gone offshore even for just a couple of thousand miles with just a sextant, watch and compass? If you haven’t then maybe you can’t appreciate what he did without even those.


----------



## AdvenJack (Feb 5, 2014)

Omatako said:


> If this voyage was done without instruments on the boat then I stand corrected - that is indeed impressive. But it also inspires me to read the material on it because I have reservations.
> 
> An example of them is that when he got south of Australia he suddenly turns left and sails straight up to a landfall. This after sailing for at least a month, probably more, completely out of sight of land. I wonder what it was that let him believe that by turning left he was in line with a port on the Australian coast. Remember the claim that he had "an hour glass as his only navigation instrument "
> 
> ...


The hour glass was used just to keep fair, the amount of time each person was on watch, period. 
As to the Left turn that brought Marv into the port in Australia, it was a dead North turn. He is a 
celestial, solar, wind, water current, etc, navigator. The sun comes up in the East, so he turns Left 
hence North to head to Oz. How did he know when? Maybe Last night he had the stars to look 
at and he knew where he was on the surface and decided he wanted to go further east, but maybe 
not a full 24 hours worth of nau-tical miles. So, next day at high noon they made the north turn. 
The man made this voyage to prove the ancients could navigate all over the salt water limitlessly. I'd 
love to repeat his journey.
:captain:


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Another ghost thread resurfaces.
I'd never heard of this guy until just now. Personally, I don't see the big deal. The Polynesians repeatedly found tiny islands, not huge continents, without any instruments at all.
Trying to prove what is already a known fact seems a bit out there to me. But hey, what do I know? I had a sextant, a couple of stopwatches, a few books, a compass, a taffrail log and a chronometer when I circumnavigated.


----------

