# Which Island Packet?



## conchcruzer

I am getting ready to pull the trigger on a used Island Packet. I''m debating between two boats. Both are built in 1999, the prices are within 15k of each other, and both are well equipped. 

The first is a 380 in Annapolis. The second is a 40 in Florida. 

I intend to use the boat for two years of full time liveaboard cruising in the Bahamas and Caribbean. I will be sailing with my fiance and an occasional guest or two. 

The 380 seems slightly more manageable for the two of us, yet the 40 offers more interior volume and additional waterline length. Also, the 380 has a standard 4''8" draft while the 40 has a rare 3''10" draft and no centerboard(with lead substituted for iron to maintain the same righting characteristic and COE). 

Both boats are equipped with a diesel generator, A/C, etc. with the 40 having additional cruising gear such as a watermaker, more spare parts, etc. The cost of the 40 is about 15k higher than the 380, not a huge difference and manageable. 

Will the shallow draft 40 suffer in windward performance? Which boat will have a higher resale in 4-5 years? The 380 has just been discontinued and is the more modern IP design with a swim platform, etc. 

Any negative comments on our intended use of an Island Packet for this purpose? 

All input is appreciated. 

-ConchCruzer


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## TSOJOURNER

The Island Packet is well designed for your needs. Large amounts of tankage and stowage are great aspects of these yachts. I suggest going with the 380 because of the advantages of more modern technology. 
All in all I disagree with many peoples opinions of Island Packets. This yacht is meant to be sailed all over the world. The classic cutter rig and pretty lines make it an attractive yacht. The boat does not beat well into the wind, but if you were in the gulfstream when the elephants are marching, would you want to be beating into it. I think not. This boat shows it''s true colors off the wind. The Packet''s full keel design gives me great satisfaction not because of seaworthiness, but because there are no keel bolt failures to worry about. They make great yachts at Island Packet, no matter what the critics say. I think some people think it''s too much of a good thing, so they put them down. Good luck with whichever yacht you choose. Maybe I''ll spot you in the Caribbean.
Sincerely,
Danny


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## Jeff_H

A couple minor points just to keep this discussion ballanced, first of all not all fin keels are bolted on, so full keel or fin, you would not need to worry about keel bolt failures with an encapsulted keel. That said, you do need to worry about the much more common encapsulated membrane failure, and ballast to keel membrane failures. In general amoungst respected yacht designers, encapsulated keels are considered a cost savings measure that hurts the seaworthiness, longevity, and sailing ability of the boat. 

I also need to ask Danny to explain why he seems to be more worried about keel bolt failures than he is about having a post hung spade rudder that is virtually the same depth as the keel. Generally accepted good design practice, expecially on a shallow draft boat and especially with a post hung spader rudder is to keep the draft of the rudder well above the depth of the keel to protect it from damage something that Island Packet has chosen not to do. 

Full keels add nothing at all to the seaworthiness of a vessel. In fact, within the design community the greater drag of a full keel is seen as a liability when it comes to seaworthiness since it means that you need to carry greater sail area in heavier going to over come that increased drag. All of the more recent studies that I have read and attended design symposium on, point towards a set of desirable characteristics for an offshore boat that would include a comparatively narrow(within moderation) easily driven hull forms, with comparatively low drag foils (within moderation), comparatively low freeboard, comparatively small deck areas, and a comparatively high vertical center of buoyancy coupled with a low vertical center of gravity. In other words, pretty much the opposite of the design thinking behind an Island Packet. 

"This boat shows it''s true colors off the wind." I agree with that except that Island Packets sail their best in a narrow range of wind speeds when reaching. They are miserable dead downwind and upwind. They do not do well in heavy going compared to more moderate designs with lower center of gravities, and they are useless as sail boats in light to moderate conditions. Distance cruising means being able to sail where you want to in a wide range of conditions. The alternative is either carrying a lot of fuel or not being able to go where you plan to go when the conditions don''t cooperate. While no one would want to be beating "in the Gulfstream when the elephants are marching" (or motoring into the Gulfstream "when the elephants are marching" for that matter), there are a lot of times when beating or close reaching is the only way to get somewhere other than aground or motoring. 

While you may have met someone somewhere who put down Island Packets because "It''s too much of a good thing", most of us put them down because they sail poorly, and are poorly detailed. 

All of that said, if for some reason the original poster still thinks that they need to buy an Island Packet rather than a boat designed to be a true offshore cruiser, I would agree with the suggestion regarding the 380, because the 3''10" draft on the 40 footer would take an already poor sailing boat and hurt its sailing ability further. I do think that the use of lead ballast is a major improvement over the iron in concrete ballast of early models. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER

Forgive me for straying a bit off-topic here, but I gotta ask, there must be SOME advantage to a full keel, isn''t there?

A newbie.

John


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## TSOJOURNER

Jeff-
I believe the newer Island Packets have a new rudder design slightly shallower than the keel, being that one of the companies prides is having ultimate protection of the rudder during a grounding. 
I believe that the older models such as the 380 and the 400 have post rudders, which I would express concern for. That would be very bad luck to damage a rudder on a voyage.
Now, when you say distance cruising means being able to sail where you want in a wide range of conditions, I don''t think you give the Packet enough respect. After all, cruising isn''t about getting there. If I had wanted to get somewhere I would have become a powerboater. If you hear the weather is not going to be in your favor, you sail to port. If you can''t sail to port, you weather it out. Back to sailing ability, you can still sail on any point of the wind (less closer than about 45 degrees which is uncomfortable anyway.) You may not go the same speed or point anywhere near as well as a moderate displacment fin keeled boat, but you will still do maybe 5 knots instead of 8.
All in all, I guess I am a sap for the classic full keel. It just gives me a better sense of security. I respect your opinion also Jeff, being that you are a naval architect. You do have years of experience. I''m glad that you agreed with me on part of my letter. If the poster believes he wants an Island Packet, he is choosing the right boat of the two in the 380.
Danny


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## Jeff_H

Just for the record, I am an archtect who designs buildings, but I have designed boats and worked for yacht designers. I still attend yacht design symposia and tend to turn directly to yacht designers when questions come up that I am not sure about.

I slightly disagree with your statement " cruising isn''t about getting there." I think that cruising is about how you get there as well as where you are going. Being able to get where you are going safely and comfortably is an essential element in the design of an offshore cruiser. 

One point that I would elaborate upon is the idea that beating ability is not important because it is uncomfortable. One of the advances in yacht design is a reshaping of the bow and moving the center of buoyancy aft so that going to windward does not have to be the bone jarring experience that it once was. Lower drag and better sails and sail handling gear means that heel angles can be reduced. That means that one has a better chance to get to where they are going comfortably even when that means close reaching and beating. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER

Like alot of other times jeff You are agreeing withiout actually being agreeable. You and I and every other sailor knows what was being said. We sail to sail. getting there safely is part of the sail. The destination is wonderful and there is a special thrill to landfall. Still we could could have gone into power boating or flying small aircraft but no we sail and eo safely sail is the Paramount reason for cruising the distination is secondary.


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## conchcruzer

Thanks to all for the favor of a reply. 

Maybe I can explain my reasoning for selecting the Island Packet and offer that up for criticism. 

My original dream boat was the 42'' Catalina. I saw one at the Dallas boat show and said "this is it." Being less of a fool than I might sound, I started a process of research. My most recent experience was on a Morgan 41'' Out Island from the mid 80''s. Having made several trips from Florida to the Bahamas, I felt comfortable with this size of boat. 

I started to research and examine all the boats in that category. I looked at construction, design, quality, price, layout, etc. I spent many months reading message boards and owner email lists, talked to owners, talked to brokers, walked the docks, inspected boats, etc. In other words, I did my homework the best I could. 

I wasn''t immediately impressed by the Island Packets. After talking to some owners, I became intrigued. After further discussions, my interest grew tremendously. 

I then compared the boat to designs of similar purpose and vintage. I looked at boats that had the capacities and load carrying abilities that I would need for cruising. I compared the IP to Caliber, Valiant, Tartan, Sabre, and other production yachts of modern vintage and high reputation. That being said, if I could afford a 42'' Valiant, my search might have been easier! 

I liked the Caliber 40 LRC and respect its tremendous tankage and seemingly sound design. The 40'' Valiant is also a fine boat. I also inspected the 37'' Pacific Seacraft, 38'' Cabo Rico, and others. In the end, the design, layout, finish, and construction of the Island Packet impressed me most. I have not yet spoken to or heard of an owner that was disappointed in the boat. Many owners seem to sell when it''s time to move ashore, trade up to a bigger IP, or retire to the (sorry) trawler. 

The IP 380, for example, carries twice the fuel and water of comparable sized boats. The fuel, water, and holding tanks are below the sole, not underneath bunks or settees. This makes them hard to remove, I understand, but very practical in terms of how to use the interior volume for machinery and accommodation. 

The problems cited by one poster are upwind performance and potential for rudder damage. The enhancements made to the keel appear to be a partial resolution to the poor upwind performance. I won''t expect my IP to point like a deep fin club racer. Is this a deal breaker? Not to me, but I enjoy hearing others opinions. As far as rudder damage, I feel better about the post hung rudder with the shoe than the post hung spade rudders. The shoe will hopefully keep crab pot lines and warps out of the prop. Again, I don''t expect it to hold up to pounding on rock or coral, but I don''t think I will have problems or failures in softer grounding situations. The rack and pinion steering mechanism seems to be robust and well designed. The mechanical and electrical systems installations show high quality in material and workmanship. 

My cruising life will be 10-15% underway and 85-90% living on the hook. If someone has a suggestion for a better boat to do that with, I am open to ideas and critical comments. 

-ConchCruzer


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## sailingfool

My suggestions is a trawler(sorry). 

Why accept the space limitations of a sailboat in return for a boat that doesn''t sail very well??? Buy the trawler, get some room and fully enjoy that hook time - with an IP you can''t really enjoy either fully.

Consider the following PHRF-NE ratings:
IP 380 186
Tartan 3800 114 
The IP can only be described as a dog (although I''m inconsistent here as I recently called the W32 a pig). Recognize these numbers show how slow the IP is in average winds, when it at least moves. Under ten MPH true you probably need to operate it as a power boat, when a performance-sensible design like a Tartan could still get you there under sail, perhaps even earlier.
If you''re sacraficing sailing performance, why put up witht the attendant shortcomings of a sailboat - get the trawler - your hours of powering will be much more relaxing versus the racket of an IP aux...
Good luck.


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## conchcruzer

Wow, that is a substantial difference. If I understand PHRF correctly, that''s an estimated difference of 72 seconds per nautical mile. Now I know it is going to depend on wind speed, point of sail, trim, sail condition, etc., but lets just say it is a straight up avg. difference of 72 seconds per mile. 

On a 100 mile trip, say a short passage from island to island, that is 7200 seconds, or 120 minutes, or 2 hours. So, if I leave the dock and set off on a 100 mile trip, I should arrive 2 full hours after the Tartan. Is that right? That is significant in that It might mean arriving after dark vs. long before dark. I see the point here. 

As far as trawlers, I like them alot. I prefer to sail and I prefer the sea keeping ability of a ballasted keel. I have considered trawlers, but never seriously. The lack of fuel economy is also a drag. I know some do fairly well at or near hull speed if they have small diesels, so I recognize and have considered that. 

I appreciate the PHRF comparison, that is interesting and something I will seriously consider. 

Thank you,
ConchCruzer


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## TSOJOURNER

Conchcruiser, 
My opinion is about as opposite as it gets with the resident expert here. 

For the Bahamas and Florida I''d go with the shallow draft. The difference means more anchorages, safer anchorages, no surge anchorages, shaving big sailing miles off by cutting across banks, sailing in smooth protected water instead of open rough water, getting into marinas, etc. You can visit a lot of places with the deeper draft and a lot more with the shallower draft. When hurricane season comes around you will pray for every inch of draft you can save. 

Compared to full keels, most fin keels are nervous nellies sailing or at anchor. They like to snag anchor lines when using two rodes in a current (normal in the islands). They are a constant source of problems. Fins are good for picking your way through coral heads and docking but it stops there for me. I don''t like having to correct the helm everytime a wave decides to push the boat one way or another. Downwind in big following seas is a workout compared to full keels...it''s all about fatique. Windvanes don''t like following seas and that problem is greatly magnified with fin keels. Skegs don''t help a lot either. Sensitivity is a good thing for day sailing and racing but not for cruising. 

You can go to the SSCA (Seven Seas Cruising Association)meet every year in Melbourne, Florida for a good idea of what seasoned cruisers prefer in a boat. They come from all over the world and the last 5-6 years showed 300+ boats anchored off in attendance for the week long event. You can divide the groups into two types..."very experienced" and "others". Very experienced are generally sailing traditional full keel, moderate to heavy displacement boats. These are sailors with life long sailing backgrounds and it "suggests" what their opinion is on the best boat for cruising. For what it''s worth, I''ve lived aboard, cruised, raced and owned multiple types of sailboats over the past 40+ yrs...and have the same opinion. 

With that said, the IPs have a good rep here in Florida. They are made for local conditions and do it nicely.


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## Jeff_H

I think this is a good example of trying to prove that pastachio ice cream is unversally better than strawberry. Like most things in sailing, there is no one size fits all answer that will please everyone and that even extreme differences between very experienced sailors (in this case two sailors ho have sailed for over 40 years) can be extremely divergent, even when the basis for a particular point of view is the same. 

For example, when BillPjr says,"Very experienced are generally sailing traditional full keel, moderate to heavy cruising boats." I would say that used to be very true but no longer seems to be the case as many (and frankly most that I come in contact with) of us experienced sailors have tried owning,"traditional full keel, moderate to heavy cruising boats" and moved on to better performing, more easily handled, less tiring, lower drag designs. 

Similarly, the right amount of draft is best chosen on based on the venue. If you are predominantly going to be spending time in Florida or the Bahamas then there is a practical draft limit of 5'' to 5''-6" that certainly makes life a lot easier. You can cruise these venues in a deeper draft boat but it means greater viglience and less convenience. On the other hand if you are predominantly going to be cruising offshore, or in a venue like New England, the Pacific Coast, Europe, or the Carribean, greater draft is a real asset and far less of a liability. 

Then there are matters of nuance.... "Compared to full keels, most fin keels are nervous nellies sailing or at anchor." I think that I would agree with that. There are a lot of really badly designed fin keeled boats out there, and frankly there probably are more poorly designed fin keelers than there are well designed fin keelers. Nothing is more twitchy than a poorly designed fin keeler, especially one with an attached rudder as was popular in the CCA era. 

I would also say that there are a lot of very poorly designed long and full keeled boats out there and that these tend to be nearly equally as twitchy as a poorly designed fin keel boat, and because of the higher helm loads they require much more physical energy to keep on track than a more lightly loaded spade rudder. 

On the other hand, a properly designed fin keel boat will track with any full keel boat and will be easier on the crew as well. In my
experience owning, delivering and sailing full keel boats, sailing even a well designed full keel boat downwind in big following seas is a workout compared to the ligher more responsive helm of a well designed fin keel boat. Some of this is clearly preference, some of this is the boats we have experienced (it does not sound like Bill has experienced a well designed fin keeler). 

When you talk about comparatively small boats, (by which I mean boats under 50 or so feet) by an large the foils (keel and rudder) play a pretty small role in tracking. Generally staying on course is a matter of the dynamic balance of the rig, hull form and underwater foils. In most of the tank studies that I have read on this matter, and in my own experience, full keel boats do not seem to offer a real advantage in heavy following or quartering seas. Their larger keel area means that there is more area for a wave to act on and twist the boat off its course. Like most things in sailing, full keels both giveth and full keels also take it away. 

Then there are the collateral issues that cloud the merits of the discussion. Many, if not most, of the fin keel boats that are out there were produced in a the IOR era and carry with them issues related to the choice of hull form and rig. The twitchness of these boats come from transient changes in immersed hull shape and rigs that are proportioned such that the rig is less conducive to assisting with longitudinal stability. Fin keeled boats are generally lighter (but not always) than a similar length full keeled boat, and also typically carry a greater amount of sail area for their displacement than full keels. The combination of these items have greatly contributed to the popular misconceptions about fin keel boats within the more conservative members of the cruising community. 

And lastly there are simply opinions that may or may not have real basis. "Windvanes don''t like following seas and that problem is greatly magnified with fin keels." I strongly agree that windvanes do not work well down wind and in following seas, but equally strongly disagee that the problem is magnafied with a fin keel boat. In fact my experience with vanes is just the opposite finding that vanes have a much harder time with the higher helm loads and large helm angle changes required to keep a long keeled boat on course vs a fin keeler. 

Similarly, I would also disagree that fin keeled boats, "like to snag anchor lines when using two rodes in a current". You hear that from people who favor long keeled boat, I have never had an anchor rode foul a fin keel (even when using a Bahamian moor when I frequently anchored in the strong shifting currents of Georgia) or even heard of that actually happening. The closest thing that I encountered to that was with one of my full keeled boats where the anchor rode slid along the bottom of the keel and wedged between the rudder and its bearing jambing its rudder. In fairness, had the boat been a fin keeler the results might have been a line between the keel and the rudder. All of that said, with the current trend in using all chain rodes, or with the precaution of weighting the rode below the depth of the keel to prevent snagging that makes sense no matter what kind of keel you have, that should not be an issue. 

Lastly, as to the opinion of the "resident expert around here", I would love to hear his opinion on this but unfortunately, Jack on Whoosh is off cruising around Europe on his fin keel/skeg hung rudder boat. 

I also want to touch on the PHRF rating discussion. PHRF ratings are generated at the average prevailing wind that a race might be held in a given region. In most venues that is a wind speed around 10 to 12 knots. That range of windspeeds tends to minimize the differences in speed between boats and so it masks the issue to some extent. Lower drag boats tend to have their greatest speed advantage over higher drag boats at the lighter end of the wind range and at the upper ends of the wind range. On a long passage this can make a huge difference in the duration of the passage and amount of fuel required. While I generally avoid annecdotal evidence in these discussions, I will mention two good items for comparison on this issue. The first, and probably the less valid was a story that was told by a fellow who single-handed a 38 foot sistership to my boat from South Africa to the Caribbean. He left South Africa in company with a heavy and traditional 50 plus footer that rated something pretty close to his boat. It was a trip sailed initially in very high winds and high seas, and then in the light air of the Duldrums and then more moderate conditions in the Caribbean. The 38 footer made it to the Carribean over a week ahead of the heavier boat having burned something less than 17 gallons of diesel. The heavier boat was low on fuel having motored through the Duldrums. I think a better indictor is the Caribean 1500 results. I find these interesting in terms of the kinds of boats people tend to use and the passage times. As a general rule, the faster boats for their length do better than their ratings, but there is always a few heavier, traditional boats that do better than their rating would suggest, and a few lower drag boats that really do terribly. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER

Right, and you are funny. I hear what you are saying but it is evident you focus with tunnel vision on crunching numbers, tank testing, racing, PHRF, etc. more than cruising. Your theory needs few years on the hook and cruising...away from shore, racing and yacht clubs. Two weeks "here & there" and talking to cruisers only get the glass half full. Until you do that you won''t understand what reflects.


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## TSOJOURNER

I''m not sure why you people are saying that all Island Packets are dogs. I have owned a 380 for 3 years now and have on many times passed Hunters in the 38-40 foot range and Beneteaus of similiar size. Even a beneteau 46 in 20 knots of wind.

The other day in 8 knots I was sailing on a close reach at half the wind speed.

I agree that they are not the fastest close hauled, I can get to about 45 degrees apparent, and they are not the easiest boat to tack. Although I have never had to turn the engine on to tack as other non-IP owners have claimed must be done.

Before you continue to belittle the later made IP''s go sail one for yourself.

I happen to love mine.

Jeff J.


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## Jeff_H

I think that the reason that people say that Island Packets are slow is right in your post.As you said, "The other day in 8 knots I was sailing on a close reach at half the wind speed." 

To put that statement in perspective, the other day I was sailing on my 38 foot cruiser on a close reach in 8 knots of wind (true)and my speed was between 7.6 and 8 knots. My boat is only a moderately fast boat. Newer 38 foot designs owe me a bucket full of time.

More to the point, if you look at the PHRF ratings for a IP 380 it is 162 to 168 depending in region and setup. Putting that in perspective a Beneteau 38 rates 114, a Hunter 37-2 rates 120, a Catalina 38 rates 120, a Sabre 38-2 rates 117, in other words 40 to 50 seconds a mile faster. That is a lot when you consider that PHRF rating are based on predominant average windspeeds which tends to minimize the performance difference of boats. At higher and lower wind speeds the speed advantage of these other boats greatly increases. 

I think that it valid to say that not all of us value speed equally and that in exchange for a lot less speed IP''s offer a lot of space and capacity for its sailing length. And that''s okay.

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER

Here is a list of races taken from the Island Packet web site that Island Packets have taken part in and placed high.

Island Packet Race Victories

Race Year & Name Model / Hull # Yacht Name Finish Owner 
1990 
Bermuda Ocean Race IP35 #16 Spinache 1st in Class
2nd Overall Ed & daughter Laura Kurowski 
1991 
Caribbean 1500 IP44 #01 Golden Odyssey 1st in Class
2nd Overall Al & Therese Bente’ 
1992 
Caribbean 1500 IP44 #12 Slow Dancing 1st in Class
2nd Overall David & Sally Heaphy 
1993 
Caribbean 1500 IP44 #12 Slow Dancing 1st in Class
1st Overall David & Sally Heaphy 
1995 
Caribbean 1500 IP38 #72 Island Time 1st in Class
2nd Overall Larry & Lynn Lewis 
1996 
Pacific Cup IP38 #149 Andante 1st in Class
4th Overall David & Kimberly Jones 
1996 
North Sea Regatta IP35 #124 Bagai 1st in Class
1st Overall Bart van Pelt 
1998 
Caribbean 1500 IP44 #12 Slow Dancing 1st in Class
2nd Overall David & Sally Heaphy 
2000 
Caribbean 1500 IP44 #30 Antietam 1st in Class
3rd Overall Jerry & Cynthia Bayer 
2001 
Marion-Bermuda Race IP35 #16 Spinache 1st in Class
1st Celestial
1st Overall Jim Lawless 
2003 
Caribbean 1500 IP485 #01 Dancing in the Dark 1st in Class
4th Overall David Heaphy 
2003 
Bermuda Cup IP420 #43 Eventually 1st in Class
2nd Overall John Parker 
2003 
Atlantic Cup IP485 #01 Dancing in the Dark 1st in Class
1st Overall David Heaphy 
2004
Regata del Sol al Sol IP420 #39 Southern Cross 1st in Class
1st Overall Ryan Cox 
2004
Regata del Sol al Sol IP420 #73 Reflection 1st in Class
4th Overall Mitch Massie 
2004
Regata del Sol al Sol IP485 #17 Leslie Ann II 2nd in Class
7th Overall Donald Hagan 
2004
Miami-Key Largo Race IP26 MkII #33 Bubbles 1st in Class
1st Overall John Pastorik 
2004
Chicago-Mackinac Singlehanded Challenge IP40 #60 Whoa Nellie 1st in Class Tony Driza


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## Jeff_H

Remember that these are races that are scored on a handicap. In other words these boats may have finished days or even weeks behind the rest of the fleet and yet still corrected out to a good finish. That does not make them fast in absolute terms. 

Beyond that, Island Packet''s ratings somewhat reflect the fact that they are not optimized for racing nor are they generally sailed as a racer would sail a boat when cruising. They tend to be delivered with sails that are not performance oriented and deck hardware that limits the ability to control sail shape. A few years back I read a piece about one of the IP''s that did well in the Carribean 1500. The owner of the boat, (a former racer) described what the fairly extensive changes that were done to optimize performance and with these ''unrated'' alterations he felt that the boat had a slight gift rating that would pay off when combined with being sailed as a racer (vs typical cruiser) might sail a boat. That said, he also noted that it was a lot harder to keep the Island Packet up to speed (they were quick to lose speed but hard to get it back) than it was with the race boats that he owned and raced in his prior life.

Jeff


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## conchcruzer

Well, I''ve got the 40 under contract! She''s a great boat and very well equipped. I''m excited to move forward with the purchase of this boat. I can''t wait to start my cruising life. 

Thanks to all for the pointed and thoughtful input to my question. I know that the IP isn''t the perfect boat for every situation, but in the end, I think it''s going to suit me fine. 

Cheers, 
ConchCruzer


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## TSOJOURNER

Thats really all that matters on buying the "best boat"...


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## conchcruzer

Well, after 2000 miles of cruising and eight months of living aboard, I figure I owe it to the board to weigh in with the results. I purchased the Island Packet 40 in November, moved aboard, made her ready for sea, and set off for the islands. I''ve arrived in Venezuela where I''ll spend the hurricane season. 

In short, the boat has been a delight. My fiance and I find her very well suited to living aboard in the tropics. With 13 opening ports and 7 hatches, she stays cool and breezy at anchor. Our master is very breezy when the trades are blowing normally, prompting me to reach for a light blanket during the night on occasion. 

We''ve successfully avoided the worst of the weather and have generally enjoyed comfortable passages with little drama. There have been exceptions, such as the occasion where my timing was poor leaving an inlet in the Berry Islands of the Bahamas. I ended up going face first into a set of three monstrous breaking waves. The IP handled it very admirably. I wouldn''t have wanted any less size or horsepower on that occasion. 

Performance wise, we''ve more than kept pace with the field of cruising boats we''ve sailed with. I''ve passed larger boats while sailing and been passed really only by performance catamarans. 

Frankly, Beneteau, Sabre, Tartan, etc. are not well represented in the Caribbean cruising anchorages. We''ve met dozens of IP''s along the way, including three in this marina. All nice folks too, and all willing to help or extend an invitation for cocktails. 

My experience does not reflect the stern warnings of some on this board against purchasing an Island Packet. I am not the least bit disappointed with the boat in any regard. In fact, perhaps there is some confusion with regard to the purpose and function of a cruising boat. For example, Jeff_H writes in his response: ". . .he also noted that it was a lot harder to keep the Island Packet up to speed (they were quick to lose speed but hard to get it back) than it was with the race boats that he owned and raced in his prior life." I''m sure this is true and comes as no surprise to me. A racing boat it''s not. A cruising boat, it is. 

Cheers!


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## sidney777

Good for YOU ! I read your discussion, start to finish. Very interesting, informative.


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## TSOJOURNER

for the record my ip 35 when beating sails 42%-45% off the wind and is best in 10 -20 knots -easily sails at 6.5-6.9knots/hr in these conditions- first reef put in at 21-23 knots of wind over the deck - the cutter rig allows easy balanced sailing in higher wind range and adds a 1/2 knot on a reach .
Very comfortable motion in an seaway .
The build quality is fantastic ,most 2nd hand owned IPs a have been well looked after and tend to hold their value.

The full keel protects rudder and prop ,very useful going through field of lobster pots. The shallow draft is a great comfort in thin water and making excessive lee way not an issue given area of full keel.

The support provided by manufacturer even to 2nd /3rd owner boats is outstanding


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## TSOJOURNER

ConchCruser,

Congrats! I guess that''s why they make all of these different boats.

Techman


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## dman

Excellent discussion and thanks for the follow up.It is always interesting to hear the final assessment.Cruisers talking about cruising boats and the racing crowd crunching numbers.Glad to see you are happy with your purchase although i knew you would be from the expectations and requirements that you needed.


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## TSOJOURNER

I think your observation of the number of Island Packets actually cruising 
in the Carribean (not just pontificating ) says it all. 

There is no doubt in my mind there are better sailing boats in the market
but I don't know how you beat it when you realize 80 to 95% of your time you will be on the hook and all the other vertues of the boat are more important.


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## TSOJOURNER

I'm entirely new to the world of sailing, and have yet to buy my first boat, and so I've been reading many of the threads in the forums, all of which are educational to some degree, and some far more than others. But this thread was one of the most genuinely entertaining and inspiration-provoking of them all. I guess it just shows that everyone, no matter what their previous sailing experience, or degree of expertise in all things nautical, is going to be a little bit biased in their opinions of what makes an ideal sailing platform.

All in all, thanks for a good read.

-James


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## Denr

One more thought to ponder before pulling the trigger on an IP. Some day you're going to have to sail the boat in to a crowed harbor or anchorage, all engines conk out from time to time, I've had to sail my boat under these conditions twice in as many years. The point is that I was able to bring the boat back to safe refuge under sail power alone in a wide variety of conditions, something I doubt an IP owner could claim. Island Packets are sailing pigs, unless you plan to use the boat only under power, I'd look at others. 
Capt. Denr


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## Jim H

Come on, Denr, tell us what you really think! 

So, basically you're saying that all those happy IP owners are completely deluded, and they're going to be sorry, sorry, sorry when the engine conks out in the crowded marina. They may be happy for years, the foolish victims, until the embarrassing tragedy strikes and they drift out of control with sails up and nothing happening. Woe, woe, woe.

Honestly, I'm not even interested in owning an IP, but I don't think FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) is any way to win an argument. In fact, I'm not even certain where the argument is in this matter. 

And your supporting evidence of having your motor fail twice in a harbor or anchorage in as many years is an example of what? Impending embarrassment of IP owners, or the need to improve the maintence of your engine?


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## Sailormon6

I think we tend to expect boats to do everything well, and we forget that all boats are compromises. A boat doesn’t have to do everything well. It only has to serve the owner’s purposes well. The IP is designed and built with compromises that are aimed in the direction of a specific purpose, i.e., making long, open water passages. Other boats are designed and built with compromises aimed toward racing and coastal cruising. Within each of those three categories, even more compromises can be made in the design and construction of boats, so that some passagemakers will be lighter, faster, more weatherly, etc., and others will be heavier and slower, but stronger. 

For some of us, a faster, livelier boat might be too physically challenging for us to handle over the long haul, and for others, a slower, heavier boat would drive us nuts, but we don't have to be satisfied with the boat. Only the owner does. A lot of experienced long-distance sailors stand foursquare behind their IPs, and the bottom line is that conchcruzer’s boat took him safely and comfortably to Venezuela. Once the boat got into the tradewinds, it probably had enough wind to keep it moving nicely, and that’s where the boat is at its best. Conchcruzer isn’t recommending the boat as an ideal Chesapeake Bay cruiser, but it appears to me that it has served his needs well and met his expectations.


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## sailortjk1

Very well stated.


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## mikeronie

Very interesting. Lets see I should have a very fast PHRF rated boat, a trawler and should stay away from an IP. 

Well after sailing a faster boat for 15 years and getting beat up by the light weight boat in 4' to 6' seas and high winds we opted for an IP 350. Perfect boat for what we do sailing in the channel Islands of California. It's easy to handle with furling main, jib and staysail. It's not a bad ride in 35 knots wind and 8 to 10 foot seas (worst we have been in so far) It is true that I can't sail to my PHRF rating (171) in the light stuff but give me 15 knots I can. If I wanted a to win races I would have got a J boat or Shock.

Island Packet is builing a new boat that can be configured as a motorsailer. It should be out this summer.

Mike


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## windship

I think that boats like the IP are built to cater to those sailors who believe that full keel is the only way to go.
If you are going to cruise islands and the coast, you will need a boat that goes to weather well.

Dennis


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## windship

mikeronie said:


> Very interesting. Lets see I should have a very fast PHRF rated boat, a trawler and should stay away from an IP.
> 
> Well after sailing a faster boat for 15 years and getting beat up by the light weight boat in 4' to 6' seas and high winds we opted for an IP 350. Perfect boat for what we do sailing in the channel Islands of California. It's easy to handle with furling main, jib and staysail. It's not a bad ride in 35 knots wind and 8 to 10 foot seas (worst we have been in so far) It is true that I can't sail to my PHRF rating (171) in the light stuff but give me 15 knots I can. If I wanted a to win races I would have got a J boat or Shock.
> 
> Island Packet is builing a new boat that can be configured as a motorsailer. It should be out this summer.
> 
> Mike


Any boat built to sail salt water should be able to handle 8-10 foot seas and even more, so, respectfully, saying that really doesn't mean much.

Dennis


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## mikeronie

Dennis:
I guess I did not make my message clear. The old boat would take the seas but as the crew got older the boat was working us too much. We were thinking of a trawler or the like but did not want to give up sailing. With our IP we found she sails very well except in light air. While she does not point as high as a racing boat I can get her to 50 degrees without loosing too much speed but can pinch to 45 in higher winds. as far as speed I have had her 8.8 knots in 25 knots true wind on a broad reach with minimal heal as compaired to our old boat. At that wind speed we only need to roll in our staysail. 

We started liking IP when we chartered an IP38 on the Cheasapeak a few years ago. After going aground twice I learned to like the full keel.As you know any sail boat is a compermise. I recomend anyone wanting to purchase an IP to charter one or find someone who will take them out.
Mike


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## windship

mikeronie,
What was your other boat?

Dennis


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## mikeronie

Dennis:
It was a 1972 Ericson 32-2. While the IP is only 3 feet longer on deck the comfort factor is way up there.
Mike


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## windship

mikeronie said:


> Dennis:
> It was a 1972 Ericson 32-2. While the IP is only 3 feet longer on deck the comfort factor is way up there.
> Mike


Isn't the lod 38' on the IP38? The LOA is over 41'.

Dennis


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## windship

Jim H said:


> Come on, Denr, tell us what you really think!
> 
> So, basically you're saying that all those happy IP owners are completely deluded, and they're going to be sorry, sorry, sorry when the engine conks out in the crowded marina. They may be happy for years, the foolish victims, until the embarrassing tragedy strikes and they drift out of control with sails up and nothing happening. Woe, woe, woe.
> 
> Honestly, I'm not even interested in owning an IP, but I don't think FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) is any way to win an argument. In fact, I'm not even certain where the argument is in this matter.
> 
> And your supporting evidence of having your motor fail twice in a harbor or anchorage in as many years is an example of what? Impending embarrassment of IP owners, or the need to improve the maintence of your engine?


Have you ever had the wind back and pipe up smartly at your anchorage and then have to lift anchor and beat off a lee shore in a full keel heavy boat that goes to weather like a haystack?
I had my engine die on me one day while transiting a swing bridge. The screws that hold the alternater bracket broke, the alt, still hanging on by the adjustment braket, fell down onto my oil filter and put a hole in it. 
In a short time the engine bled out its oil and the engine siezed! The bridge opperater, in his haste and with an out going tide and the wind in the same direction that would have pushed me right back into the bridge, started closing the bridge before I was clear. I was by myself and I had about a minute to set sail, which I did and then nervously sailed into the clear.
Now, I can get my Endeavour 32 almost to 40 degrees to weather. I wouldn't have made it with 50.
Things usually happen while under way.
Alot of fin keeled boats out there ride very nice at anchor.
I also don't care for the way the underbody flattens out between the turn of the bildge to the garboard area. It's gotta pound.
When you buy your Island Packet, In the off season, you can park it right next to your '59 Buick.

Dennis


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## mikeronie

Dennis:
Your correct about the IP38. I have an IP350 which is 35' on deck and 36'10" LOA. 
Last October several members of my Yacht club were in one of the coves on Catalina island when a storm came up. Many of the boats on moorings had to be towed off. The engines on the sailboats which included a Catalina 42 and Catalina 30 a J105 did not have the power to get off the moorings. All of us could come up with situtations in which a paticular boat would not be idel. 
I love my haystack
Mike


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## conchcruzer

*Funny Stuff!*

Haystack, '59 Buick, gotta pound, etc. You guys crack me up. Get off your arse and do some cruising.

I've met plenty of IP owners from Venezuela to the Bahamas and they all love them.

Just met an older couple, 69 now, that are getting ready to sell their IP 37 that they've had since new in 1989. They've done 85,000 miles in that boat and only ever had one structural problem (a broken original bobstay in the Southern Atlantic). It's been around and back and ready for more. In all that time, they've never had to check, tighten or replace a single keel bolt (aren't any).

Sailormon6--right on, brutha! The E Carib is nothing like the Cheasapeake or Lake Whatever. Open water, 15-30k winds, and an IP 40 sailing along nicely at 7-8+.

Keep beating off those lee shores and patting yourselves on the back lads.

Cheers, 
Conchcruzer
S/V Eventyr 
IP-40
www.ipphotos.com/eventyr


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## PBzeer

At the risk of sounding simple, might I remind everyone that a boat only has to please the person that owns it......no one else.


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