# Revised plans for the summer cruise to bermuda



## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

I posted earlier about how i am planning a cruise to bermuda and about the suitability of various modifications to my boat now im wanting some routing information. The plan has kind of changed a bit the goal od bermuda has become more open ended im planning on going to bermuda and if it goes well proceed to the azores, and across to europe and then into scandanavia (norway) now i am actually more inclined to leave from halifax not new york because it will give me more time to test out my various systems, and such and since the boat is pretty new to me ill get more of a feel for her handling though im pretty sure that small craft advisory in georgian bay gave me a pretty good idea of how stable she is in stronger though not strong winds but what im wondering is i should leave halifax by june 1st if im correct but how about leaving bermuda what month must that be done and when it comes to the european weather im at a loss for knoweledge. Would u recommend going thru the english channel and across the north sea to stavanger and up the coast or off the coat of western ireland and across that zone where the north sea the norwegian sea and the atlantic converge and up the norwegian coast any thoughts. i am aware the north sea and the norwegian sea have some nasty weather also i will be checking passage weather before the trip and i have an ssb transciever to talk to herb and a navtex onboard thanks and the legs will all be contingent on the previous one so if bermuda goes badly ill just head back to canada


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

Out of Bermuda, once you get past the end of June you are getting into hurricane season. I’d try to leave Halifax in May or even April to give myself a break in Bermuda but still clear out in plenty of time to avoid the possibility of an early hurricane. 

If I read you correctly, you will be setting off without a serious test of your boat and equipment. Do you really want to use a 750 mile ocean crossing with notoriously unpredictable weather as a shake down cruise?

As far as routes and route planning for anywhere, buy World Cruising Routes by Jimmy Cornell. It’s the bible for long distance passage planning and worth every cent.


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

id assume going to bermuda if i leave june first and just stop to repair/restock on water would allow me to leave by june 8th or so no? and well id assume the trip from georgian baythru the bruce peninsula down lake huron, lake saint clain the detroit river lake erie the welland, lake ontario the saint lawrence seaway and the gulf of saint lawerence that 1600 im guestimating kilometers should be sufficient to be a shakedown cruise ive also added a list of my proposed additions modifications some of which have been made some are still in progress... my ideology also is that i want to have not one contingency plan for every single system but at least 3 unless that system would require alot of weight added to duplicate 3 times


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

by notoriously unpredictable weather are we talking 35 40 knots 20 foot seas here or force 12 and 45 foot seas neither is preferable but i think i could manage 35 40 knots ok not so sure about the latter, but yes i beleive the getting to halifax part of the voyage should be sufficient to test the various systems also if its cutting it to tight to be going to bermuda then to azores because there may be early june hurricanes would going straight to azores a better option or arcing down towards azores a good option, the problem with that is that i really feel more comfortable with the smaller distances involved in a standard milk run route i will definitely pickup the book, have you done the trip before can u advse me of what to expect/what can go wrong weather wise im already aware of the shoals in st georges harbor


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

Sorry, I had just seen this thread, not read your other posts.

You shouldn't encounter force 12 unless you get caught by a hurricane, in which case you might not survive in a 30 foot boat anyway. A lot of good sailors in sea-worthy boats died in the '79 Fastnet and that was "only" force 10-11. It sounds like you might be underestimating "35 40 knots 20 foot seas", especially in a small boat for an extended period.

Take a look at this thread and actually watch the videos. He was crossing NY to Bermuda in November, which is regarded as a good time to go, just after hurricane season. Unpredictable is just that - unpredictable.
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...sea-cruisers-singlehanders-normal-people.html

A lot of people have a smooth ride but some sustain damage. I would allow time for a rest and to fix anything that breaks.


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

that was mostly my point i know i would most likely die in force 12 though so would alot of boats, the bulkheads would crack and then the deck would ome into the hull and ur finished, so avoiding hurricanes, passage weather or whatever its called should at least be able to tell me hey theres for 10 winds there within the next week going today probably a bad idea...and i will have ssb to talk to herb for weather rotuing and a navtex is a week enough time to rest i cant really move the departure from halifax earlier than the last week of may because where my boat is the channel doesnt unfreexe till late april beggining of may so that gives me just enough time to get out to halifax also i saw that video, i thought it was pretty lucky actually with the exception of the ******* skipper of the steelhull his autopilot held up really well though, im taking 3... but all in all it seemed rough but it never seemed like his life was in imminent danger. im guessing the bermuda to azores portion would be bengn compared to the halifax to bermuda portion because its in a much lower lattitude? ive pretty much made sure the boat is 100 percent up to the task theoretically and then fitted about a billion ways to fix her on board... and obviously have quite a distance to test all her new systems... im aware 20 ft seas in a narrow 30 footer can be quite miserable so id like to avoid those conditions but my point was that i know is survivable unless there are unforseen weaknesses in the boat or crew, or one of those lovely shipping container decides to flirt with your hull.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

O.K. – I’ve got work to do. Final thoughts for the day (In my opinion, for what that’s worth).
Leave as early as you can so that you’ve got as much time as possible to deal with the unexpected.
“im guessing the bermuda to azores portion would be bengn compared to the halifax to bermuda” - Don’t underestimate Bermuda – Azores, Neptune punishes complacency.
As I said previously, World Cruising Routes is the long distance bible.
Reeds Nautical Almanac is the "go to" reference UK/Europe. (mini charts, harbors, tides, routes, waypoints, weather, local requirements, etc., etc.)
Be flexible.
Have a great time.


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

well thanks for the help, ill definitely be purchasing those two books from amazon/chapters, ill try to stay out of neptunes wrath, sorry neptune  im definitely flexible the only thing thats hard and fast is i want to stay out of the way of hurricanes, and get there at some point but reeds sounds quite helpfull would it have information on scandanavia too? but thank u for the advice


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

I just had a thought and did a quick check. You need an International Certificate of Competency to operate a leisure vessel in Norwegian waters (as well as some other places you might visit). There might be an exemption for a US or Canadian registered vessel but I don't think so. I know RYA and IYT can issue them - don't know about CYA. You might ask Jackdale, he's an CYA and IYT instructor. Sorry if this has been covered in another thread.


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

is thart like the yachtmaster certificate? all i have is my intermediate coastal cruising after that i decided just to learn on my own, how do i hunt down jackdale to ask him, im not super good at figuring out how to use all of sailnets features..


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

duchess of montrose said:


> i will have ssb to talk to herb for weather rotuing and a navtex


You now have to register with Herb by e-mail before you set out. Herb is taking more holidays this year also, so watch his web site for information about his schedule.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

You can get an International Certificate of Competence by passing the ICC test or you can just request one if you have passed a test approved by as equivalent. A Yachtmaster would definitely qualify but I'm not sure what else would.

You can contact any member by going to their member page and clicking on "send message". You can find anyone's member page by clicking on their name where they have posted or by going to Community, selecting Members List and then look them up alphabetically.

You might wait to see if anyone else responds first.

You can read here
International Certificate of Competence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OK, I just looked and ASA can issue one if you have passed ASA104
International Sailing Proficiency Certification for Chartering from ASA

Can't find any reference on CYA.

Gotta Go - Really - Good Luck


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Based on your refit thread, you've done some fairly major work. I would never consider a passage to Bermuda without having made several shakedown cruises and their inevitable tweaks. 

It says you just bought a storm sail, so you'll need to practice setting it. You said you have a 12 ft wide drouge from a fishing boat, but I can't picture what that means. Sounds like a sea anchor to me, not a drouge. Again, you should practice deployments and even more importantly, retrieval. Some have become so laborious to get back they've been cut away and then you are naked for the remainder of the trip.

I recall a supply of garden hose for chafe protection. For a quick short term fix, that's fine, but over the long haul, garden hose will do more damage. 

Finally, your refit says you bought a survival suit rather than a liferaft, because you couldn't afford a raft. I'm afraid that's a very bad idea for an ocean crossing.

Hope you get your plan together, it is a great goal. Just do it right.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

If I were you I would want to be leaving Bermuda by mid May. So that pushes your US departure date back to Late April early May.

I would also plan to have capeability to motor for several days as light winds are commonplace on the passage from Bemuda to the Azores and onwards.

Here is a good site to help plan your European cruising clicky


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

ill keep that in mind to sign up for herbs list via email and check his schedule, and re a life raft, the cost of a life raft is prohibitively expensive for me, yes i could afford it but i think i used that money better doing the modifications im doing to make the boat stronger, im considering adding flotation to the hull as well i was thinking about doing watertight bulkheads like james baldwin but the way my hull is built it wouldnt work, there is a hose that runs from the chain locker to the bilge...i figured i should do everything possible to keep my boat afloat and keepng every possible strategy to save the boat onboard instead of having a liferaft because fiberglass boats are more hospitable than liferafts, and in that unfortanate situation where i could be unable to save the boat, i have the inflatable dhigy to at least cling to so search and rescue if they notice my epirb can see me, but in all honesty im more trying to not have to use the epirb because i dont have total faith in it u dont go into the ocean expecting help will come just as easy as it does when u call mayday in coastal waters right... in terms of timing, i will check passage weather but if i have to leave before june 1st im afraid i wont be able to do that i would have to wait till after hurricane season, because of when the boat will be launched and the distance i will have to cover in my shakedown cruise which is about the same length as the passage to bermuda. Im sure 1600km is a long enough shakedown no? oh and for the fishing drogue its apperantly 25ft in diameter, and the seller who apperantly manufactures it said its a drogue for heavy weater and as a drift anchor for offshore fishing vessels


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Couple of thoughts ... 
1. Don't know what your life schedule is like but your plan would have you rushing past some incredible cruising grounds. I would put the coast of Newfoundland up against any place in the world with respect to beauty, interest, wildlife, people. Also Bermuda is a wonderful spot to spend a couple of weeks - I would not want to just go there to get water and whatnot.
2. Your timing for the Atlantic crossing seems OK. If you left Bermuda by around June 20th with a clear forecast you could get far enough east to avoid a tropical storm that would not be there for 10+ days - assuming you have the clear forecast to start. There is no way to are going to get to Norway for this coming summer though. It is just too far. If you really wanted to be in Norway this summer it would make sense to go from St John's to Ireland directly, but you would need to do this trip pretty early in the season (back to Cornell) and it would be cold and somewhat stormy.
3. Your timing to get to Halifax by June 1st though does not make much sense though. It would be a very cold trip when you start in Lake Huron and really cold in the lower St Lawrence. Remember that on a really nice day ashore in the spring in the Great Lakes region it is frosty a few miles out since the water has not warmed up much at all. This is during the day. At night, and you will need to do overnight passages to get anywhere in a hurry, it will be dangerously cold. You mentioned something like 1600 km. If you managed 50 a day (stopping at night) then it is 80 days so you are not getting to Halifax by June 1 - and this is assuming no layovers for weather, repairs, just because you would like to rest and enjoy an interesting spot.

Not sure if you know this website, but it is handy to get a quick take on distances
Google Maps Distance Calculator

My overall take on your plan is that you need to think about taking it more slowly. The whole point of doing something like this is to enjoy yourself and not be constantly rushing *that is what much or regular life is*. And rushing to meet a really tight schedule can be unsafe. I think that your plans go beyond rushing and verge on impossible in the time you have.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

killarney_sailor said:


> Couple of thoughts ...
> 1. Don't know what your life schedule is like but your plan would have you rushing past some incredible cruising grounds. I would put the coast of Newfoundland up against any place in the world with respect to beauty, interest, wildlife, people. Also Bermuda is a wonderful spot to spend a couple of weeks - I would not want to just go there to get water and whatnot.
> 2. Your timing for the Atlantic crossing seems OK. If you left Bermuda by around June 20th with a clear forecast you could get far enough east to avoid a tropical storm that would not be there for 10+ days - assuming you have the clear forecast to start. There is no way to are going to get to Norway for this coming summer though. It is just too far. If you really wanted to be in Norway this summer it would make sense to go from St John's to Ireland directly, but you would need to do this trip pretty early in the season (back to Cornell) and it would be cold and somewhat stormy.
> 3. Your timing to get to Halifax by June 1st though does not make much sense though. It would be a very cold trip when you start in Lake Huron and really cold in the lower St Lawrence. Remember that on a really nice day ashore in the spring in the Great Lakes region it is frosty a few miles out since the water has not warmed up much at all. This is during the day. At night, and you will need to do overnight passages to get anywhere in a hurry, it will be dangerously cold. You mentioned something like 1600 km. If you managed 50 a day (stopping at night) then it is 80 days so you are not getting to Halifax by June 1 - and this is assuming no layovers for weather, repairs, just because you would like to rest and enjoy an interesting spot.
> ...


I like that.
Spend the spring and early summer along the north east coast - plenty of time to get used to your boat and gear - then strike out directly for the Azores in August. Scoot over the the Canaries or the Med for the winter and sail North next spring. Northern Europe is beautiful in the spring. If you can afford the time that is. Maybe you'd better add World Cruising Destinations to your book list.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Bobbing around in a survival suit in 15 ft seas and 30 kt winds, which Mr. Murphy insists are the only conditions in which you will lose your boat, would be dangerous over a lengthy period and impossible to hang on to the dink. 

Spray could be choking. Food, medical treatment, fresh water, all out if the question. On an ocean crossing, you could wait a long time. Bermuda does not have a Coast Guard and you will be out of range of US and CAN in the first couple of days.

Is a recertified used liferaft out of range?


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

*$295 lift raft*

Let me put this out there for for comment.

I wouldn't set off without a raft that had been checked out BUT here a raft for $295. Made in 2005 but certification expired in 2007. It's probably o.k. - I've seen an ancient raft inflate just fine. If the alternative is to go without, I'd consider checking the weight of the CO2 canisters and go sailing. Better than a survival suit.

Thoughts???

http://www.usedinflatables.com/UsedGallery/AD388-5.pdf


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

to killarney sailor i think you may be right i was hoping to avod the heavy weather and kind of make the trip into smaller modules so if im sick of the ocean when i get to bermuda i have a safe haven to stay in, but i guess your right i was guestimating 1600km if i go thru the trent i could shorten it quite a bit... i guess im so used to my desk job and deadlines i forgot how to take it easy, just looking for guidlines though u think its safer aka less chance of huge storms if i go the northern route instead of the milk run bermuda,azores, english channel north/norwegian sea. actually rereading it it actually i think makes sense to cruise newfoundland for the early summer and head to azores in end of july beggining of august and then maybe spend the winter in the med cruising italy, croatia and greece and then hop up to norway and sweden in the next sprinfg thanks for the plan guys but does that give me a good weather window for azores i wouldnt be getting any fall gales or in the path of any hurricanes? and 300 dollar liferaft give me i meant the 6000 dollar ones ive been seeing


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

Winds mostly depends on how far N or S the Azores high is that year - you could have the opposite problem i.e. not much wind. But this is weather we are talking about - no guarantees. It's a plan I'd do. Think about the life raft


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

im going to call them as soon as i get home the life raft is a good deal for me im going to ask them to send me a shipping estimate and a paypal invoice and ill buy it asap for that little its definitely worthwhile and well i know weather is somewhat variable but im asking if it is a generally safer route than say the higher north latittudes across to ireland, for example yes weather is variable but the weather around cape horn in midwinter is usally much worse than the weather in lake ontario in july  its kind of a gneral trend im looking for im still going to be prepared for the worst


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Be careful with that raft deal. A good used 4p raft is usually a grand if out of cert. Two grand if current.

A water soaked raft can easily have holes, rotted inflation fittings, etc. Find out the story. 

Spend too much and waste a little, spend too little and waste it all...........


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

ok ill make sure to be carefull but if its in good condition or at least fair condition thats a good deal for me  id really rather not have to use the raft but its nice to know it will hold up for at least a few days at sea


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Be careful with that raft deal. A good used 4p raft is usually a grand if out of cert. Two grand if current.
> 
> A water soaked raft can easily have holes, rotted inflation fittings, etc. Find out the story.
> 
> Spend too much and waste a little, spend too little and waste it all...........


Really good advise. Ask a lot of questions and be prepared to walk away.

Duchess (you don't mind if I call you Duchess, do you? ) Google, ebay, craigs list, local marina bulletin boards, ask around, "for sale" on the forums. You might have to do some leg work on this. Good Luck.


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## duchess of montrose (Nov 26, 2011)

haha i dont mind its the name of me boat, and yes i find thats the way you get a good used product in any area being prepared to walk away, are there any websites that sell used gear like life rafts im also looking for a wind vane i have 3 autopilots but would really orefer the energy independence of a windvane ill check the local marina boards im constantly scouring ebay for good deals and well craigslist is allright along with kajiji but i never seem to find what im looking for


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

These folks are very good and would spend time with you on the pros and cons of each. Note that while they have some rafts out of certification, I do not believe they will sell you one without it becoming certified.

http://www.lrse.com/cat-Pre-Owned_Life_Rafts-892.aspx

If you spring for one (and I really hope you do), have it vacuum packed and try to keep it dry. It will serve you for years and you could then sell it yourself to recover a good portion of your investment.


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