# First Boat for Family of Six (in Oz)



## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Thought I'd post a better target for the thread drift (but more important subject of) the discussion here.

Basic requirements are as follows:
Camping berths for six, two adults and four children under twelve
Keel boat as we don't really have a place to put a trailer-sailor
~$30K maximum price as we're not rich and are averse to borrowing before the mortgage is paid off.
Mostly for sailing Lake Macquarie, but plan to use it occasionally for coastal sails up to Port Stephens and down to Pittwater (40-80nm) for a couple of days _"camping"_

So far we've had some interesting suggestions (here & locally) that I'll list below:

Manitou 32 - we're ruling it out, but it does technically fit the requirements
_*Edit Notes:* Apparently, it does not have the right number of berths_
Bonbridge 27 - small but sails well and does have a (cramped) six berths.
Carter 33 - lovely boat, fits all the requirements but the average price. Looks pretty good to me and bears investigation.
Clansman 30 - Great looking boat, perhaps a little cramped but seems pretty close on the mark.
Southern Ocean 32 - Again, looks like it ticks all the boxes. I am not sure of her sailing characteristics though.

I'm trying not to be unrealistic (no _"bluewater cruiser ready to sail for under $10K"_ ), but realise that fitting a family with four boys is not something easily done at this price.

Feel free to chip in on what you think of the above suggestions and/or add some more. Depending on the responses, I might edit this post with more details/models so others can find the information easily.


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## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

I was just looking for someone to post a reply for me to look at. Six berths seems like a lot of boat? Could you try something like a boat that sleeps 4 and put two of the crew up out on deck laid out on the seats? The captian on the deck kids in the cabin. Backpacker gear has come a long way in the last few years hammocks hung above deck below the boom and from the forstay back to the mast maybe? Innovation may be your salvation ? The kids will start to go in many directions soon before you know it. Friends will have them over and you may able to camp after you had a house full of your boys best buddies.. . I have 3 so you have been blessed with one more than me. Enjoy them they grow fast !


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

OK, so accepting that this is something akin to camping we can narrow it down a tadge.

Nothing wrong with the camping aspect of course , just as long as folk realise that Bent is not looking for a round the world cruiser and that he is limited by his rather careless aquisition of a wife and four sprogs. 

Lake Macquarie btw is Australia's largest coastal salt water lake roughly twice the size of Sydney Harbour and connected to the Tasman Sea by the Swansea channel. A daysail up or down the the coast will see you in Port Stephens or Broken Bay.

... and so to boats ....

Carter 33 ... nice choice but as you realise you will be pushing a barrow uphill to find one at the right price. One in Newcastle under offer at sub $30K. bit of a roughy but otherwise looks OK.

Southern Ocean 32 looks interesting and also looks like she'd be a nice thing to sail. Has the berths but otherwise pretty cramped.

Me, I'd be more inclined to consider the idea of four berths down below and camp in the cockpit. A decent boom tent would supply sufficient cover though admittedly in heavy rain you would be pretty miserable but hey, four sprogs, the missus and you are not exactly going to chirpy in anything 30 odd feet when it is bucketing. Crikey its hard enough keeping two anti social misfits like me and the talkative one happy in a wet 30'er. You know this already, so no real need for me to tell you again what ? However, with six of you on board you will need a decent sized cockpit anyway, why not take advantage of the cockpit seats as bunks ?

ps - Swanson 28 .... maybe a bit slow if you are thinking of doing the odd club race but lots of room and I think they sleep six. Probably a bit of a roughie in your price range.

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/swanson-28/79363

and this .... i know nothing about them but reputable builder and if the cockpit seats are long enough she would sleep seven.

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/hmg-30/110861


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Six people on a 27 foot boat. That's love.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

_*laugh*_ "Careless acquisition". I'm going to have to use that one. See I wasn't paying attention to what I was doing and before I realised it, I was married with four kids in tow. *Totally* not my fault! :laugher

On the subject of the boat, "camping" is really the only affordable option I've got for a family my size. My wife loves to sail, is incredibly jealous of my twilights, and our kids are far from being able to take care of themselves. That adds up to close quarters day sailing on the lake and "camping" further out or no boat... and let's face it, who wants to confront the latter option 

Thanks for the options/feedback so far. Looking a the new models now.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

BentSailor said:


> _*laugh*_ "*Careless acquisition*". I'm going to have to use that one. See I wasn't paying attention to what I was doing and before I realised it, I was married with four kids in tow. *Totally* not my fault! :laugher


Great name for a boat.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I've always had a soft spot for the ideal of boatingsailing/camping. (sorry for the meander Bent). Sleeping under canvas in the cockpit is a truly lovely thing to do even better when you can leave the canvas partly folded back and go to sleep under the stars. Trouble is when I do it I don't go to sleep, just lie there and look up. Sublime. I remember as a young bloke going canoing and pulling up to a nice spot, make a fire, cook dinner then lay out bedroll next the canoe. If it rained during the night simply pull the thing over on top of you. Cockpit of a sailing boat is a damn sight more comfortable though dem damn mosquitoes can knobble ones dream. 

For Bent he needs to make sure that while he has all those berths he also needs to make sure that there is enough space in the cockpit cos thats where most of the time will be spent and you do need a bit of elbow room when actually sailing. 

I'm not concerned about the overall lack of space. This boat is essentially for family outings and occasionally they'll stay on board, all the while relatively safely tucked up inside the lake.


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## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

I know you have specified a keelboat, however for camping with kids you may want to consider some swing keel / drop keel trailer sailers. I use to own a half share in a Farr 7500 which we left permanently in the water at a yacht club and only occasionally used the trailer. I regularly had 5 onboard and could pull the boat up right against the shore and the sprogs could get off anytime they liked and play on the beach. With the poptop and canvas cover the cockpit can be a useable extension of the living space.

The Farr 7500 would be within your price range, plenty of other also would.

Pictures say a 1000 words, below is what I mean

Ilenart


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

I liked mine.
GRAMPIAN* 30
great live-aboard for one, worked for two, does have 6 berths (1 quarter, 1 settee, 2 on convertible dinette, 2 in vee) though I would occasionally sleep in the cockpit or on a 
Eagles Nest Outfitters SingleNest Hammock from Backcountry.com
rigged between the furler and the mast... anyway, price wise it may fit the bill with enough wallet wiggle room for some upgrades.

good luck
Q
ps, if you want something that is trailerable you might want to look at the balboa 26


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

QuickMick said:


> I liked mine.
> GRAMPIAN* 30
> great live-aboard for one, worked for two, does have 6 berths (1 quarter, 1 settee, 2 on convertible dinette, 2 in vee) though I would occasionally sleep in the cockpit or on a
> Eagles Nest Outfitters SingleNest Hammock from Backcountry.com
> ...


He's unlikely to find any of those in Ozzie.


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## RNC725 (Aug 19, 2010)

hey, whats the best way to hang your hammock from roller furling? Slap straps? line? any special trick or knot?

thanks


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Hey Bent,

A couple of years ago we cruised around Broken Bay and further abroard on a Supersonic 27, it worked well for just the two of us, and often we also did 'campout' cruises with extras onboard.

Could the budget extend at all??? As I am sure you are aware your budget is very hopeful. Anything at this price point would have to be a severe compromise of one kind or another, ie people sleeping in the cockpit......sleeping bags on the floor etc. In terms of introducing a family to cruising, i would recommend doing everything you can to make it a enjoyable experience.

If you could squeeze the budget even a touch I would highly recommend looking at a Columbia 34.
An early American design, however the aussie boats were built here and are alot newer. They are huge for a 34 footer, and can sleep 7 with everyone in their very own bunk.You would get one for 40K.

Have a look at this one. Been on the market for over a year.
COLUMBIA 34 SLOOP boat details - BoatPoint Australia

I have sailed on a Carter 33, they are a fast boat, would be fun daysailing around the lake, but smallish cockpit( I completely agree with TDW a liveable cockpit is important), feels cramped down below as well, particularly compared to the Columbia 34 mentioned above, it is a very practical layout at least. I know a bloke who cruised the eastcoast with a couple of additional crew on a Carter 33 and he made it work.

I tend to think if you get a 27 something you will either love cruising and have outgrown the boat almost immediately, or it could put your family off the experience .

My two cents and this is going to be controversial, but if you want to go outside Lake Macquarie and cruise the NSW coast(and up to QLD- I WILL convince you to do that cruise with your family) then forget a trailer sailor, the NSW coast is not where I would want to be in a TS. Just my thoughts, others will disagree.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

chall03 said:


> If you could squeeze the budget even a touch I would highly recommend looking at a Columbia 34.
> An early American design, however the aussie boats were built here and are alot newer. They are huge for a 34 footer, and can sleep 7 with everyone in their very own bunk.You would get one for 40K.


That's a smaller version of my 43. I can recommend it although the looks of the 34 put some people off due to the high freeboard - it's the same height as my 43.

That price seems very high - they go for 1/2 that here.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Sadly that is OZ SloopJon, every boat here is twice the price it would be in the states.
With our dollar now higher, so many sailors I know are seriously looking at buying in the US and sailing home. Also I am lead to believe that most of the US Columbia 34's were built in the early 70's, the ones built over here were built in the lare 70's/early 80's.

I agree the looks of the Columbia's are not to everyone's taste.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Chall .... We discussed the trailor sailor option in the old thread. Bent's problem is that he has nowhere to park the boat/trailer. Other than that I thought it made a bit of sense. With limited space on board pulling up to the beach extends the availabe space and the kids could always pitch a tent. I wouldn't be all that worried about sailing the NSW coast in a TS cos other than down to Broken Bay or up to Port Stephens Bent doesn't plan taking this boat further afield. If its not feasible however then thats that.

Sloop .... yep to the dollars. unfortunately it doesn't make sense to ship a smaller boat to Oz, the freight coats make it prohibitive. Of course sailing home is emminently doable provided the boat is sea(ocean)worthy.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

chall03 said:


> Sadly that is OZ SloopJon, every boat here is twice the price it would be in the states.
> With our dollar now higher, so many sailors I know are seriously looking at buying in the US and sailing home. Also I am lead to believe that most of the US Columbia 34's were built in the early 70's, the ones built over here were built in the lare 70's/early 80's.
> 
> I agree the looks of the Columbia's are not to everyone's taste.


The Tripp Columbias were built until the Payne designs took over - about '75. Columbia built all over under license - they were built in Vancouver, Italy etc.

Sounds from your timeline like some obsolescent tooling may have been shipped to Oz so production could resume.

As to their looks, I can't recall ever seeing a flush decked boat I didn't like, a boat I thought had too much beam and only a couple that I thought had too much overhang.  In todays design world, except for the beam, I'm pretty much a lost soul.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Like I said my thoughts on the TS were just that, personally I wouldn't want to be on a TS with a dinky outboard and 4 kids off NSW on a day with a decent bit of wind and swell, even on a run from Lake Mac to Pittwater, Yeah sure you could wait for a flat day, but that's not really fair dinkum sailing then is it?? 
Not saying it can't be done, just saying it wouldn't be me doing it and If a TS is ruled out well then thats that. 

I think if a bunk for everyone is a requirement then you are looking at a handful of boats 30+. The Columbia is the one I think meets that requirement the best. I would also caution against trying to buy the cheapest example on the market of any boat, it can be a real trap.


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## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

With the internet you can order world wide. A hammock really is not a patent that is exclusive. They should make them, some mosquito netting and camping gear. Boats that have very similar lines and function are sure to be found. I think it is a great idea to look over the rest of the world for ideas.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Bent, How's it going ? Have you had the chance to look anything over as yet ?


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

When I was in my early 30s, I had a wife and four kids (ages 7 to 1). Our first family boat was a Bayfield 32. Very sturdy and forgiving boat which was important since we were not that experienced back then. We found that you could sleep three or four kids in a space designed for two adults pretty easily, too. Not sure if there are any Bayfields down under, though.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

I've made some progress and learnt a few things. Was hoping to have some good news before returning to the subject with my findings, hence me being quiet for a little bit. I'm a bit buggered at the moment (was just heading off to bed), but will update the thread with some details tomorrow.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Good News?? Way to leave us hanging!!!!
Look forward to your update.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Sorry, I don't HAVE good news I'm afraid. I was simply _hoping_ to have some good news before updating. You know us first yacht buyers, so full of optimism that reality is a hard slap to the face 

OK, I've looked at a few boats now and looked into a few more models based on suggestions and where they took us in our queries. I'll summarise below

*Bonbridge 27* sails beautifully, reasonable cockpit, and doesn't have a look that makes one cringe in shame sailing it (in fact, I think she looks pretty nice). That said, she had a couple of downsides - namely that even sleeping two would feel like camping (though she has the berths, they are not what one would call comfortable).

*Carter 33* looks nice both in & out and she can move on the water quite nicely. Thing is, from what I saw and what I've been able to gather, she really needs two people to sail her well. Someone more experienced than me might be able to single-sail her, but I'm nowhere near as experienced as some long-horns around here and my wife even less so.

*Columbia 34* boats are pretty damned sweet and, honestly, I could definitely see us on one. I've heard great reports but I haven't found one that was below $50K. I'm no financial whiz so stretching my budget that far is a feat left for after turning my water into wine 

*Southern Ocean 32* is looking good. The only one that fits the price range though has dropped another $10K recently though which worries the hell out of me. Especially when the dealer is *advertising* it as needing TLC.

Which brings me back to the *Clansman 30*. I recently got to take a trip out on one of these boats and I must say I am kind of impressed. She looks nice, seems to sail well without much in the way *needing* the second person on board (especially to windward), and roomy enough for the camping/sailing we intend to do. Though I'm not 100% certain about it, I'm comfortable enough now to have told the accountant to work out how we extract $30K from the business without too much tax implications 

Trust me - when I have "good news" of the yacht buying type - I'll be sending a post from my phone before the ink is dry on the bill of sale


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Good to hear your making some progress Bent, 

FWIW I think you might be able to get a Columbia 34 a little cheaper than the 50k asking, there is never any harm in making an offer...... but 30k might be a bit of a stretch.

Clansmans are really beautiful boats to sail, sigh If I had my time over again, I would go back and slap my 21 old self and tell him to buy a Clansman and sail the Pacific.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Hi BenT! I'm a bit late to this party (for various reasons including too much real work to do) but am glad you're seriously thinking of buying a REAL boat. 

If you're looking at a Clansman, perhaps it'd be worth looking at an older Northshore or a Duncanson for much the same $$$?? ..or there's a nice timber Nicholson 32 for sale in Brisbane  

Hopefully whatever you do get will be good enough for the HCW.. to save Old Fuzzy the trip north.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Thread necro time!

With the "camping" aspect in mind, I've come across a Van Der Stadt MAESTRO 31 in my price range. Looks very nice but I've never sailed one nor have (yet) talked to someone who has. Does anyone know what these boats are like?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

BentSailor said:


> Thread necro time!
> 
> With the "camping" aspect in mind, I've come across a Van Der Stadt MAESTRO 31 in my price range. Looks very nice but I've never sailed one nor have (yet) talked to someone who has. Does anyone know what these boats are like?


Bent,
Not a lot of information on them but it looks like a small version of our old girl which I'd reckon is not a bad thing. I'd be interested to see underwater design and interior layout but at the right price and depending on condition could be a nice boat. GRP ?

Andrew


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Yeah, GRP and looks to be in reasonable condition from the details I've seen. Of course, I've seen some advertisements showing pictures that look nothing like their current condition, so there is still the possibility she's barely floating but so far so good.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

BentSailor said:


> Yeah, GRP and looks to be in reasonable condition from the details I've seen. Of course, I've seen some advertisements showing pictures that look nothing like their current condition, so there is still the possibility she's barely floating but so far so good.


Are you suggesting that some advertisers play fast and loose with the truth ? Oh Pshaw.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

Speaking of shallow water: Something a little out of left-field that might be ideal for your sailing grounds is an old Couta Boat. There are plenty for sale at good prices.

(I'm only half joking).


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Already have ourselves an open boat for day-sailing. Couta's are longer and far more appealing on the eyes than what we've got, but if I'm going to spend $35K-$55K on a boat, I want to cruise in it. 

Never, yet, had an issue with the occasional shallow sandbars around here. Although I think I recall waking up when someone else hit one. Memory is kind of fuzzy on that though


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

BentSailor said:


> With the "camping" aspect in mind, I've come across a Van Der Stadt MAESTRO 31 in my price range. Looks very nice but I've never sailed one nor have (yet) talked to someone who has. Does anyone know what these boats are like?


My advice: Stick with the Clansman. You can't go too wrong buying a boat with a known pedigree and a quick check on Boatpoint shows there are a few around to choose from.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Hartley18 said:


> Speaking of shallow water: Something a little out of left-field that might be ideal for your sailing grounds is an old Couta Boat. There are plenty for sale at good prices.
> 
> (I'm only half joking).


Which half ?


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

tdw said:


> Which half ?


Exactly. She's a beautiful boat, but not a cheap one (especially for a day-sailor)!


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

BentSailor said:


> Exactly. She's a beautiful boat, but not a cheap one (especially for a day-sailor)!


Meh.. Couta's come in a range of sizes, are (very) shallow draft, non-racing versions can be bought within your budget, and are indeed pretty to look at.

Day-sailers is all they are ...but the lack of winches and home-comforts and general slowness compared to what you're currently looking at probably won't work for you.

Besides, they're made of wood.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

The slowness, not such a big deal, but not really that interested in a just a day sailor. Made some headway on a boat based on your other advice though - so it looks like I may not have to worry too much about "settling" for only days on the water


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Not sure of the budget, but doesn't the Hartley designs have some larger versions? are some pro built if you will vs being home made? one of them might work........

Otherwise, not sure what to say on brands that might be available down under.........

oh yeah, did you figger out what causes them rug rats?......

Marty
also a father of 4!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

My main issue with many of the smaller yachts is comfort at anchor. I know i've blathered on about this before but when you have an interior a'la standard Compass 28 or 29/Clansman/Duncanson 29 you have a dinette to starboard in which anything larger than a hobbit or a cavalier spaniel could not possibly get comfortable and galley opposite. The older Northerner had a smaller galley aft to port with settee berths both sides. You lose the table unless you install one on centreline but you gain comfort. 

Unless you can get yourself into a comfy position you will not use the boat for overnighting.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> Not sure of the budget, but doesn't the Hartley designs have some larger versions? are some pro built if you will vs being home made? one of them might work........


Yes, there are indeed some larger Hartleys and I (of all people) would be the first to recommend one, but... the trouble is, because many of these were home made - badly - they tend to give the pro built versions a bad name also meaning selling it later becomes a serious problem. To the extent that most I've seen for sale are mooring minders.

If someone were after a largish plywood or ply/fibreglass boat in the 25-30' range that they could customise themselves in their own backyard then, yep, a big Hartley would be worth looking for... but Bent isn't in that market. He's got a family to look after.


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

Very true. I have enough work with four boys without adding the gutting/refit of a boat to the equation. I am looking to spend more time with the boys _on the water_, not another year (or two) _working on a boat_.

Honestly, from people I've talked to - one of the best ways to "kill the dream" is to start by building / fixing up a boat. I have enough financial reasons to avoid the dream without killing it!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Understand the Hartley issue. I was thinking having seen some of the plans, thought they were both pro abd homemade down under one might work.......with that......skip it.

I would also think there should be some older fiberglass boats from jeanneau, Beneteau to name a couple of european manufactures that seem to sell down there that could work in the mid to upper 20' range. Many also had CB options to handle any draft issues. 

Again, as your market is different than mine, hard to say what is available per say. The Farr design 1020 is a good one, one that B Farr used for his family for awhile. Most if these were built down under. Might be a smaller version that would work. (now that I am typing, I do recall a smaller version in a thread that was in Oz for sale, just do not remember the name...980 or 920?!?!?) There is one of these at my marina, quick, lots of room in the cockpit. A Laser 28, also a Farr design might work, not sure if they were made down that way tho.

Marty


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## boating2go (Jul 12, 2012)

DRFerron said:


> Six people on a 27 foot boat. That's love.


They'd better love each other because things are going to get close very quickly. We've done it with the grandkids with no problem but had more room then that. Of course kids think of it as an adventure of are usually flexible unless it is raining and they get tired of each other. Than no boat is big enough.


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