# Miss Liberty vs the landlubbing haters!



## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

I've started this thread to discuss and chronicle the issues that arise or have already arisen due to my five years having lived aboard the 42 foot ferro-cement Samson design ketch-rigged sloop the Miss Liberty, hailing from Clearwater Beach, Pinellas County, Tampa Area, Florida. Unfortunately at the time of this posting, her current condition is pretty bad, as is the legal situation I find myself in as a result of that condition. I have been forced to plead guilty to a charge of "derelict/abandoned vessel" mind you I was not responsible for her current condition, nor have I abandoned her even now. I have been sentenced to 65 days in jail SO FAR, a year probation which I have to pay a maintenance fee, 40/month I think, 450$ court fee, and as a condition of the probation I have to remove the boat within 150 days, or I will be sentenced to a YEAR in prison. The Miss Liberty was stripped, which is how she ended up in her current situation, which is a six-foot keel hard aground in 2-3 feet of water, sunk about 200 yards shoreward of serviceable water. I have about 25 more days in which I intend to appeal the decision in hopes of reversing the guilty plea, which I only put in after it became clear that Pasco County was going to do everything they could to railroad me in an attempt to squeeze every penny they could out of me with no regard to my civil rights or a sense of fair play. With that background, let the discussions and advice commence!


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

Now she looks like this... :-(


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

You are not responsible for her current condition. Who is?


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Your photo did not come through. Sounds like some tough luck, and with a derelict ferro cement boat you won't find much sympathy here. But if the boat ran aground in shallow water, it is your responsibility as the caretaker of the ship to keep her afloat. You are responsible for good ground tackle and even in named storms it is your responsibility. I don't know the full circumstances of why it is not your fault, but there are tons of derelict boats in Florida and they are causing lots of legislation that are limiting the rights of those who take care of there vessels. 

Now liveaboard rights are something different. They are being limited unfairly in lots of places. It is because of the bad apples out there that are causing issues for lots of folks who maintain there boats. How about you explain how you got into the situation without ranting about how your rights were trampled on without any factual details. Rants never convince folks that your right. Just the facts.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Ever notice how everybody in jail is innocent?


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

The persons responsible for Miss Liberty's current condition are unknown at this time, they stripped her while she was at anchor near Anclote Key on the shoreward side by virtue of 250 yards of 3 inch chain with a 75lb. Danforth iron anchor. She was self-sufficient,reliable bilge pumps, batteries, solar and wind generators, proper decking and hatch covers,she'd remained COMFORTABLY afloat through tropical storms cum hurricanes and a tornado for over five years in the Mandalay channel, less than thirteen miles away. The Pasco County Sheriff posted her on the derelict albandoned at-risk vessel database and it was like he'd put a flag out that said 'hit me' they took EVERYTHING made of metal or containing it,all the wiring, batteries, solar panels, wind generators I invented, bilge pumps, inverters charge controllers, hatches, 8 Perko bronze(brass?) portholes, a 500 gallon stainless fuel tank from under the back deck that they ripped up to get, and probably last but most assuredly not least, the anchor (one assumes) and the 250 foot 3 inch iron anchor chain, and assorted goodies, my 90 inch wifi enabled plasma tv, 1000 watt stereo,guitars, amps, my computers and laptops, nav/sonar equipment, the entire binnacle, compass, wheel, stand all, stainless steel stove and restaurant hood and microwave, two refrigerators, a deep freezer, all of the lights and fixtutes and wiring, even (sorry, will continue in next post, ( the aluminum toilet paper roll holder.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

How is it that simply being responsible for a "derelict" vessel gets you thrown in jail? Could it be that there more to the story than you simply leaving a boat at anchor in one spot for 5 years?


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

My apologies if this is coming off as a rant, but as you read I hope you will recognize the intent with which it is written, I am seeking advice and perhaps help and trying to lay down a cautionary tale, there but the Grace of God kinda thing with all love of a mariner at heart. See, the fact that the anchor and chain were amongst the things stolen is tantamount, they set my girl adrift, and right when tropical storm Sandy was coming into her windup around here. I had been working in Clearwater Beach, thirteen miles to the south, half-camping ashore, only coming out every other weekend, in my 19 foot Cobia'grocery getter, an unfortunate victim at the dock during Sandy.The Pasco County Sherriff continued to call and harass me EXACTLY as he had before the storm, not giving any hint that there had been any change in her status, and I repeatedly told him she was anchored south of the Anclote River, which put her squarely in Pinellas County, and out of his jurisdiction anyways, and it wasn't until several weeks later that a Pinellas County Sheriff whom I know loosely passed word to the Clearwater Police Department's Marine Sergeant Officer Mark Cason whom I know rather well, professionally at least, he'd inspected Miss Liberty a couple times, and my favorite anchorage was less than a quarter mile from where the sheriffs and the PD both dock, that it was a situation, not just his usual illegal 'you can't anchor there' nonsense. I had lost two boats, actually, to Sandy, a 19 foot center console SeaSquirt as well as the Cobia, and had been busy scrambling to replace them, both of which had been disposed of properly, I might add, cut up and paid to drop at the dump, but because of which, I had not been able to go and check on Miss Liberty yet. Pasco County issued a notice (they say, I never saw it) to an address that was so old it had been torn down and is now a Walgreens, not the address on my ID or the ship's registration, which, when returned, became a warrant. I have a few friends in Clearwater, having been sort of the first long-term sailboat resident, and not easily, the official types were dead set against it, but at every inspection I was within the law or so close no offense was sufficient to net me more than a single 'anchor light' ticket (bulbs burn out, sometimes) which I think was even dismissed when I proved I fixed it before the next evening, and complain as they did, the local Condo owners finally grumbled and accepted that I lived here.


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Captmetatron,

I regret that you find yourself in this position.

From your description, I'm guessing that you had no insurance on either Miss Liberty or your skiff. True?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Sorry to hear that thieves have stolen all your stuff. That's terrible. Did they also set her adrift so that she became grounded? Did you file a police report when this happened? How and when did she sink? Something sounds fishy with this story. Did you have your belongings insured from theft? With all the derelict boats in Florida, it is not surprising that they are trying to hold owners responsible so taxpayers are not stuck with the cleanup bill. From what I've observed in places, there are many abandoned boats in FL and many more that look like they're one step away from becoming derelicts. It's unfortunate that you've been caught up in this but if you explain to a judge that the boat was ransacked and cut free one night and you returned to it the next day to find it grounded and stripped, I can't see how you can be held responsible. Sounds like time to get a lawyer, maybe even a PI to find if there is a link between the disgruntled condo owners and the destruction of your boat.


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

I know, long winded, my apologies, but the Devil here is in the details. So, I know some guys here that do commercial recoveries and I begged, rented, or borrowed enough equipment to handle about any condition I thought Miss Liberty could conceivably be in up to and including refloat from as deep as 30 or so feet, rented a good deck boat as a work platform, and went to go get a good meal for me and a few buddies who agreed to be unskilled labor for food on that lovely albeit chilly Friday afternoon... And got arrested at the Hess station hanging out waiting for them to show up for 'Felony Derelict/Abandoned Vessel', with all that equipment, much of it RENTED, remember, with a NO BOND hold,because Pasco County considered the undelivered notice a 'failure to appear'! I tryed all weekend to contact someone to no avail, and on Monday I went before a judge who then refused to release me on my own recognizance, and since all anyone knew was that I had borrowed a bunch of expensive equipment and then vanished, because since I had been transferred directly to Pasco, it took 13 DAYS to arrange a friend to find me and come 27 miles away and put up property and 100 dollars to pay a$500 dollar bail! The rental companies I got some of the equipment from were ticked, and blackballed me from further rentals because I didn't have money to pay the added fees. ...more in a bit...


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## jgeissinger (Feb 25, 2002)

Ditto on PorFin's comment. Just about everything you described in your unfortunate tale would have been reimbursed and made whole to at least some degree by properly insuring your vessel and personal property. If the situation is that you chose not to carry insurance for whatever reason, then you are in fact totally responsible and get zero sympathy from me.


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## MobiusALilBitTwisted (Jun 25, 2007)

ok a few more post and the OP can link photos, and this is making my head hurt, i am like WTH


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## CrazyRu (May 10, 2007)

What Sandy has to do with west coast of Florida?


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## PorFin (Sep 10, 2007)

Been giving this some thought, and trying to read between the lines (which may be useless since some details are either wrong or make absolutely no sense)...

- 42' ferro-cement boat, laying at anchor in the same spot for 5+ years.
- Owner not living aboard, but "visiting" every other week or so. 
- Owner apparently also has no fixed shoreside residence.
- From the description, the boat is either a floating apartment or a floating storage unit -- even those self-indulgent power boaters we love to poke fun at would think that a 90" TV has no business on a real seaworthy vessel that's less than 160' LOA. 
- Owner has boat firmly attached to the bottom with 750' of 3" chain (in an area that never exceeds 12' of depth) at the northern end of the ICW along FL's west coast.
- Owner declined to insure his boat (basically assuming all risk himself.)
- For some reason that is so far unclear, both the owner and the vessel caught and held the attention of local LEO's.
- Don't know if the vessel registration was kept up to date.
- LEO's had been trying to engage the owner for a long time before the vessel was listed as "at risk."
- The live aboard owner was not present to defend his "home" when looters/salvors descended.
- Hurricane Sandy's impact on the west coast of Florida was fairly minor, so that's probably been thrown in there just to elicit sympathy.

Captmetatron -- forgive me for being harsh, but as the saying goes "it sucks to be you."

You took a gamble and lost. Had you carried insurance on the boat, you'd have far fewer problems than you are facing today. 

The story of your arrest also raises more questions than anything else. 

Frankly, you and your vessel are the epitome of exactly WHY Florida is enacting laws that make life for cruisers more challenging these days.

Do I feel sorry for you? A little. But you gotta live with the decisions you've made.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

5 years without moving says houseboat to me rather than a liveaboard cruiser. 

But having some experience with local authorities in Florida and how they deal with people they perceive to be vagrants squatting without paying local taxes I suspect that they will use all the bits of the law that they can to get you out of there. 

Anyway is your boat water tight and will it stay afloat if moved to deep water? Does it have a working engine. Do you have a destination in mind if it is refloated.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

I am still unclear why we are being told this tale of woe. Does this guy just like to hear himself talk? Did he think that average boaters who actually pay their bills were going to sympathize with him? Or is he gonna hit us up for money?


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

I want to hear more about the "3" chain" and the "iron Danforth".
I would be scared to mess with thieves who could steal 250 yards of 3" chain.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

FSMike said:


> I want to hear more about the "3" chain" and the "iron Danforth".
> I would be scared to mess with thieves who could steal 250 yards of 3" chain.


Yea, and a 500 gallon stainless steel fuel tank, and a restaurant hood, with all that equipment there must have been no room to walk around inside! I wonder if he had a washer and drier on deck? must have been hanging pretty low in the water.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

reminds me of this story.

Stuck in the sand on Gulfport Beach, his life at sea slides toward an unhappy end | Tampa Bay Times

I never really understood the group that got together to help him out. It was a nice gesture, but I am sure the boat is no better off now that it off the beach. Perhaps the OP wants some help like folks did for "captain jay" you know a free get out of the marsh card or something.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I also would like to hear more on the 250 yards of 3" chain. There's big and then there's BIG. How can you carry 250 yards of 3" chain on a 42' boat? 1/2" chain is massive. 200' is a lot. This would seem impossible to store, carry or haul up. Where do you get a windlass for that? Lemme guess, you haul it up by hand, right?


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## joebeach (Aug 16, 2011)

Fstbttms said:


> Or is he gonna hit us up for money?


Bingo....


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

To address a couple things... she was not anchored in the same place continuously for five years, but there was a place in the Mandalay Channel I always came back to. Her being anchored near Anclote was the result of an aborted trip to Crystal River, I didn't expect to be anchored out,I thought to be docked at the end of the trip, hense no insurance, I didn't expect Liberty to stay there.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

captmetatron said:


> The persons responsible for Miss Liberty's current condition are unknown at this time, they stripped her while she was at anchor near Anclote Key on the shoreward side by virtue of 250 yards of 3 inch chain with a 75lb. Danforth iron anchor. She was self-sufficient,reliable bilge pumps, batteries, solar and wind generators, proper decking and hatch covers,she'd remained COMFORTABLY afloat through tropical storms cum hurricanes and a tornado for over five years in the Mandalay channel, less than thirteen miles away. The Pasco County Sheriff posted her on the derelict albandoned at-risk vessel database and it was like he'd put a flag out that said 'hit me' they took EVERYTHING made of metal or containing it,all the wiring, batteries, solar panels, wind generators I invented, bilge pumps, inverters charge controllers, hatches, 8 Perko bronze(brass?) portholes, a 500 gallon stainless fuel tank from under the back deck that they ripped up to get, and probably last but most assuredly not least, the anchor (one assumes) and the 250 foot 3 inch iron anchor chain, and assorted goodies, my 90 inch wifi enabled plasma tv, 1000 watt stereo,guitars, amps, my computers and laptops, nav/sonar equipment, the entire binnacle, compass, wheel, stand all, stainless steel stove and restaurant hood and microwave, two refrigerators, a deep freezer, all of the lights and fixtutes and wiring, even (sorry, will continue in next post, ( the aluminum toilet paper roll holder.


So someone stole 750 ft. of 3 " chain. Come on....really

90 feet weighs 7650 lbs. according to the chart in the link. So they made off with 63,375 lbs. of chain if 250 yards

Even if it was 250 ft. That equals 21,250 lbs. How did they retrieve that? Did they beam it up from the spaceship hiding behind the sun? 10.5 tons of chain??????

STUD LINK ANCHOR CHAIN SPECS

You left a floating storage shed tied to the bottom with 21,250 lbs f chain and it moved? Its not a boat . How did it stay afloat when you " pulled" the chain aboard. Sounds like a lot of exaggeration here...care to send a picture?


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

Another point, I never abandoned the Miss Liberty, even now I haven't, she's my home, and I love her it can all still be fixed. The interferance by law enforcement accomplished no public service or benefit to the tax payer, all they did is make it harder on me, a kick while I'm down. If anything it will cost taxpayers needlessly to have brought all this to court. The Pasco county sherriff has mishandled the whole thing since day one, and should be held accountable for just trying to make money hiding their own fault,if Miss Liberty had never been looted, none of this would have happened,. How is it possible that they spend all day every day right there but allowed this to happen? It had to have taken some time to rip up the deck and take the fuel tank, and the wheel and all, they'd have have to have had some idea of the fact that what was going on wasn't kosher. And rather than pursue the question of who stripped the ship, they pursue ME.


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

The current plan is to take a couple jet skis and a deck boat up and put her on a kind of outrigger made out of 55 gallon drums and firehose to sling her sideways, reducing the keel depth, till I can get her back to deep enough water, then take her to a dock to fix her back up.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

captmetatron said:


> To address a couple things... she was not anchored in the same place continuously for five years, but there was a place in the Mandalay Channel I always came back to.


it is a fine, nuanced, difference, but a difference nonethesame...
no it's not.
your boat apparently looked derelict, smelled derelict, was for all intents and purposes derelict, and after years of neglect now yo whine about somebody salvaging the boat you refused to?

As soon as i read "ferro-cement" and "florida" I knew this was not going to end well.

No, that is not skipper-profiling, that is just plain observing the law of probabilities.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

captmetatron said:


> The current plan is to take a couple jet skis and a deck boat up and put her on a kind of outrigger made out of 55 gallon drums and firehose to sling her sideways, reducing the keel depth, till I can get her back to deep enough water, then take her to a dock to fix her back up.


okay, now i know he is trolling.

any being this obtuse would normally need a feedbag.

sure, its a great idea to rescue a grounded Samson"sailing basement"... with jet skis.

oh, yeah, and the mother of all salvage ships...
a deck boat.

*facepalm*


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

captmetatron said:


> To address a couple things... she was not anchored in the same place continuously for five years, but there was a place in the Mandalay Channel I always came back to. Her being anchored near Anclote was the result of an aborted trip to Crystal River, I didn't expect to be anchored out,I thought to be docked at the end of the trip, hense no insurance, I didn't expect Liberty to stay there.


How does that equate to not having insurance? If you don't have insurance you take on all risk and have no reason to complain. If you planned to be docked, I would imagine any marina would require insurance.

Try posting photos again I think you may have enough posts now, but don't use facebook posts as lots of folks here don't use facebook.



bljones said:


> okay, now i know he is trolling.
> 
> any being this obtuse would normally need a feedbag.
> 
> ...


You forgot 55 gallon drums, likely to be successful at lifting concrete that is likely saturated with water.


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## Dauntless Brent (Jun 8, 2013)

I can't help but question this whole thing and what is wanted by the poster. Not to mention the chain and anchor. Why/how on Gods green earth would anyone use 250 ft. of 3 inch chain on an 42 ft. boat? When 5/8" chain and a 44 lb. anchor would stick and do the job. Come on. I'm calling BS.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

You know what seems odd to me about this, an event like this would usually end up in the newspapers down there. Grounded boats, jail sentences, stripped boats, and the like usually show up in a Google or Dogpile search. But when I do a search on line nothing comes up except the conversations on SailNet. 

I assume that the 3" chain is a typo for 3/8" chain. If that is intended as the length of the link, that is approximately the length of 1/2-9/16" chain. The 250 yards (1/7th of a mile of chain), on the other hand, is inexplicable unless the boat was anchored in awefully deep water, as in 100 feet or so, oh wait, there are no 100 foot anchorages on the west coast of Florida.. 

Jus' say'n,


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Yes, he has us 'pulling his chain'.
It smelled of BS from the get go.


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

Yes, clearly the size of the chain is the most noteworthy part of this story. Just to add a nice little challenge to those so nitpicky, perhaps the chain size isn't accurate, so I'll restate, and say the technical size of the chain is "big-a**" with a length of "ridiculously long ", because the only point that the chain is even vaguely relevant is that it was way beyond sufficient right up until it was STOLEN. As to the fact this situation has not made the news, you're right, this should be plastered all over every front page with the headline Pasco County Treats Victims of Crime Like Criminals...


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

captmetatron said:


> Yes, clearly the size of the chain is the most noteworthy part of this story. Just to add a nice little challenge to those so nitpicky, perhaps the chain size isn't accurate, so I'll restate, and say the technical size of the chain is "big-a**" with a length of "ridiculously long ", because the only point that the chain is even vaguely relevant


Actually, it may be the ONLY relevant part of this indent-impaired tale.

See, the fact that you know so little about your ground tackle tells us that you had no business being afloat as long as you have, or you lied about the size of your chain, trying to make it sound more impressive...
so, that describes the story in a nutshell- either factual misrepresentation, ignorance, exaggeration or just plain a mess of lies.

Pick one. or two.


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

Before.


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

lol! Ten seconds later another idiot pipes up about the chain, lol!


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Neptune weeps:








No sail cover, a tarp on the foredeck, apparently to stem leaks, a tire as a fender, and this photo is at least a year and a half old...
the chain was the least of your problems.
That boat deserved better than the likes of you.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

you think you really ought to be slinging the "idiot" label around, capt. homeless?

I mean, I still have a boat. You on the other hand, have a reef and still call yourself "captain."


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Pride of ownership?????

If it looks like a duck ( very poor upkeep ), smells like a duck (has very little activity on it for log periods of time), acts like a duck ( rarely moves off its whatever chain), and quacks like a duck ( the details make no sense)..Its a duck ( derelict)

So what is the purpose of your posting here? What are you trying to accomplish?


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

fun.


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

Yep, idiot seems appropriate, from my electrically powered self-contained 42' Morgan Outisland (not bad for homeless) when addressing someone who assumes so much.the tarp is for shade, there were no leaks, the sailcover is below because she'd just been under sail, and the tire just happened to work better than the manufactured bumpers. But hate on, I'm sure it makes your life so much better what with the ulcers and all... just do the world a favor, and wait till you've got something constructive to contribute... that way we'll never hear from you again...


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

The boat (from a distance) has nice lines. Let's hear more....


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

captmetatron said:


> Yep, idiot seems appropriate, from my electrically powered self-contained 42' Morgan Outisland (not bad for homeless) when addressing someone who assumes so much.the tarp is for shade, there were no leaks, the sailcover is below because she'd just been under sail, and the tire just happened to work better than the manufactured bumpers. But hate on, I'm sure it makes your life so much better what with the ulcers and all... just do the world a favor, and wait till you've got something constructive to contribute... that way we'll never hear from you again...


Hey captain timewarp, you called me an idiot long before I made any assumptions about your lousy boatkeeping...and thanks for proving my assumptions right.

Yeah, tires make fine bumpers- on boats that never sail, or move, skippered by lazy slobs who never bother scrubbing the skidmarks off the topsides anyway. They make great mosquito breeding ponds as well, and stow much better than "manufactured" bumpers do.
But that kind of know-nothing defensive stupidity is what every broke-ass lazy "captain" says... then rants when his uninsured POS boat becomes a taxpayer problem and his lazy boatkeeping becomes a public eyesore.

Regarding your "electrically powered self-contained 42' Morgan Outisland" .. 
Unless you learned anything from your last fiasco, it's on a matter of months before it becomes another florida taxpayer problem.

the tattered and faded pirate flag cliche pretty much tells the story.

I hate to see a boat neglected.
I hate to listen to someone who takes no responsibility for his problems.
I hate liars, blowhards and fools. They make it harder for the rest of us to sail under the radar.
If that makes me a "hater," I'm good with it.
You keep spoutin', I'll keep hatin'.


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

I agree, NCC, thank you, she rides beautifully, extremely stable under just about any conditions, how many other 38 year old ladies can ya say that about?


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

So, yeah, here's how I picture this, and please let me know of any (constructive) criticism. I'm going to attach a sling-like arrangement to the port gunwale that runs under the keel and is attached to an outrigger. Kind of an arrangement, so as to keep her heeled over to reduce the draft. The water gets about 3 feet deep at high tide, hopefully it will be enough to change her 6 foot draft into a 2.9,?!?! Then it's about 900 yards to serviceable water ...


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

simple geometry-
to reduce draft by half, you have to heel boat at least 45 degrees.
If said boat has a 6' draft currently in 3 feet of water, the keel is effectively buried 2-3' in the bottom.

Good luck.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

seem to me that with all the technology that we have today and the fact that you have a lot of time to post here that you could post a pic of the ill fated boat so people on this site could be more effective in helping you solve your problem. then you could spend more time with the boat and less time on this site. which seems to be the reason the county officials have a problem in the first place. if you can't see why a county would have a problem with a anchored boat with a tarp to keep it afloat. a tire on the side because you are the only one that thinks it works better, and a set of perfectly flaked sails just says derelict boat to most of us. your boat looks about as good out there as a pile of tires on the side of a old concrete highway. I also don't think the boat was robed on the water and set free. more likely your ground tackle broke and it got ransacked after it hit the beach.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

NCC320 said:


> The boat (from a distance) has nice lines. Let's hear more....


Yes, if you squint, and don't look at the condition of the boat. Looks like there is rust coming through from the re-bar/chicken wire between the tire and the Lady Liberty, but hard to tell from this distance. Ferro Cement is not inherently terrible but it is the weakest material per pound for sure. Only became popular because it allowed for backyard builders to start a dream. I wonder how many got broken up before launching? Most of the designs were a bit to far out there on the pirate kitsch for my tastes.

By the way it was a sunny day when this photo was taken, there is just a grey cloud hanging over the boat.



captmetatron said:


> Yep, idiot seems appropriate, from my electrically powered self-contained 42' Morgan Outisland (not bad for homeless) when addressing someone who assumes so much.the tarp is for shade, there were no leaks, the sailcover is below because she'd just been under sail, and the tire just happened to work better than the manufactured bumpers. But hate on, I'm sure it makes your life so much better what with the ulcers and all... just do the world a favor, and wait till you've got something constructive to contribute... that way we'll never hear from you again...


Oh you didn't buy another boat did you? You can't take care of the one you have so the last thing I can see you doing is buying another one. By the way I have not seen one thing constructive posted by you in this thread. If it was to discuss moor ring rights OK, but all you have done is prove that you are exaggerating you situation, at a minimum. I hope you take care of the Morgan better, and clean up your mess from Lady Liberty. Why such big boats for one person anyway? I would think a smaller boat would give you less trouble and perhaps you could keep up with the maintenance.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

captmetatron said:


> Yep, idiot seems appropriate...


I agree. In fact, I think most of us here would agree. "Idiot" seems completely appropriate.

I just think we might disagree regarding to whom the term would best apply.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

For the first three sentences I was wondering where you were going with that, Don.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

If you get the boat moved, what will you do with it then? If it does not receive significant repair (at some significant expense and if it is repairable or worth repairing), you'll have the same problem again in a different location. And if it is repairable and you intend to do it, why not earlier and how could you let it get into current condition (before it was stripped)?

If you can get the bottom area around the keel cleared away so that the bottom is not restricting the heeling, you might get a large horsepower motorboat to connect to the top of mast (i.e. halyard or similar) and while the motor boat gently pulls very hard at roughly ninety degrees to direction that you want to move your boat, you might be able to heel the boat over sufficiently at high tide to work it towards deeper water. Assuming your engine isn't working at this point, you'll need a boat on the bow to pull your boat while the other power boat is heeling your boat. All this assumes that the standing and running rigging are up to the task. Also, moving ballast (anything heavy) to one side can help achieve the heeling.

The 500 gallon stainless steel tank....why that size, how was it installed, and how was it removed? Really 500 gallons? 1 gal/hr x 5 mph = 2500 miles.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Kind of like this:


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

that is not hard to do with a canting keel and a mast that long. it also was not stuck in 3 ' of mud


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

NCC320 said:


> The 500 gallon stainless steel tank....why that size, how was it installed, and how was it removed? Really 500 gallons? 1 gal/hr x 5 mph = 2500 miles.


Oh, come one. You don't REALLY believe that he had a 500 gallon tank, do you? I'm sure it's like his 250 yards of 3" chain.

So just for fun, let's review the most obvious of the lies/exaggerations posted by the OP...

"I have been forced to plead guilty..."

In these United States, no one is ever FORCED to plead guilty. It is a choice that you made, like your choice not to get insurance. Most likely you chose to plead guilty because you knew you were going to lose anyway, and you could get a slightly lesser penalty by not contesting the charge. That's the most common reason that people plead guilty.

"I was not responsible for her current condition..."

It's your boat, you ARE responsible. Even if others really did go out and strip her while securely at anchor (which, I have my doubts), you are still responsible for the boat.

"...250 yards of 3 inch chain with a 75lb. Danforth iron anchor."

Uh, yeah. I don't think so. As someone else said, either a deliberate lie or a gross exaggeration indicating that you are completely ignorant of what sort of ground tackle you were using.

"... right when tropical storm Sandy was coming into her windup around here."

Tropical Storm Sandy did not EVER come into her windup around here. The effects of Sandy were very minimal. A little bit of wind and rain, but no worse than we have been seeing the past month with the usual, Florida, afternoon thunderstorms. You repeat this talk of all the damage Sandy did to you several times, across several posts. Complete and utter nonsense. Nothing more than a hollow excuse.

"she was at anchor near Anclote Key..." "she was anchored south of the Anclote River, which put her squarely in Pinellas County..."

Squarely in Pinellas County? Do you even know where the border between Pasco and Pinellas counties is? Only the southern tip of Anclote Key is in Pinellas County. The rest is in Pasco County. At most you might have been "barely" in Pinellas County, rather than "squarely" in it.

"...from my electrically powered self-contained 42' Morgan Outisland..."

Morgan made an Out Island 41. They also made a 42' sailboat that was not a part of the "Out Island" series. What they did not make was a 42' Out Island. What you have (if anything) is probably an Out Island 41. It comes as no surprise at all to me, however, that you don't know that.

So really, is there any reason to believe anything that is getting posted by the OP here? I have to agree with whoever it was that said, it appears that the OP is exactly the sort of person who is causing so many communities to try to restrict liveaboards and long-term anchoring. Either that or he is just a troll, hoping to elicit some sort of reaction from people. And why is it that these kinds of posts ALWAYS seem to come from self-proclaimed "captains," when it's obvious that they couldn't captain themselves out of a paper bag?


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

denverd0n said:


> Oh, come one. You don't REALLY believe that he had a 500 gallon tank, do you? I'm sure it's like his 250 yards of 3" chain.
> 
> So just for fun, let's review the most obvious of the lies/exaggerations posted by the OP...
> 
> ...


I know he didn't have a 500 gallon tank.....I'm not even sure that he has a boat, and for sure, he doesn't know very much about boats. And if he does have a boat, the conditions that he described are directly related to not knowing much at all about boats and are his fault. Still, it would be interesting to hear what he would have to say about it.

I generally agree with everything in your post.

However, if one visits boat yards and marinas, or reads lots of forums like this one, it is clear that there are many, many people who know almost nothing about boats who dive into a project to fix up one....it's generally called upgrading....with no understanding of what they are getting into, no idea what it would cost, with little of the skills or tools needed, and totally without funds to make a reasonable attempt at fixing up a broken, worn out vessel. And after the money runs out, and they get tired of messing with the boat, they give up and move on leaving a derelict abandoned for someone else to clean up. On one hand, I feel sorry for them because usually they can ill afford to waste their money and time. On the other hand, they kind of deserve what they get by charging into something that they know nothing about without doing a little homework first.

My last boat, used by me for 22 years, and a subsequent owner for 3 more lies abandoned in a local boat yard. A man (third owner) knew nothing about sailboats, never had been sailing, but thought the living aboard and cruising would be great came along. So he bought the boat and immediately started disassembling, and modifying everything. When he bought the boat, it was completely serviceable. it was old and had some issues that he could have worked on gradually. But he was going for a "upgrade". I felt sorry for him and on several occasions offered to show him how to sail. He declined....too much into the upgrade. Spent lots of money and time making the boat un-sailable. But he did learn the name of another brand of boat that is considerably more upscale than my old boat by hanging around in the boat yard. So he abandons my old boat after destroying whatever value was left, buys the better brand, and set about making it un-sailable also. And both were made unsellable too. And after more time and money, the second boat was left beside the first one, both now being in derelict status.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

NCC320 said:


> ...there are many, many people who know almost nothing about boats who dive into a project to fix up one... with no understanding of what they are getting into, no idea what it would cost, with little of the skills or tools needed, and totally without funds to make a reasonable attempt at fixing up a broken, worn out vessel.


You're absolutely right. And one of my pet peeves is that, when people like that come here looking for advice, if we tell them the truth--that they are getting in a whole lot deeper than they realize--then we will be accused of being "naysayers" and of trying to "destroy their dreams" and so on.

They don't want to hear honest assessments of their situation. I can sort of understand that. They have a dream and they don't want to be told that they are being unrealistic. What I find odd is that so many other posters will also jump in and start accusing those who are blunt, honest, and factual of being "naysayers."

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there are a lot of people out there who desperately need to hear someone say "NAY!" This thread's OP being just one.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

bljones said:


> Neptune weeps:


Really still trying to figure out how all this:



captmetatron said:


> they took EVERYTHING made of metal or containing it,all the wiring, batteries, solar panels, wind generators I invented, bilge pumps, inverters charge controllers, hatches, 8 Perko bronze(brass?) portholes, a 500 gallon stainless fuel tank from under the back deck that they ripped up to get, and probably last but most assuredly not least, the anchor (one assumes) and the 250 foot 3 inch iron anchor chain, and assorted goodies, my 90 inch wifi enabled plasma tv, 1000 watt stereo,guitars, amps, my computers and laptops, nav/sonar equipment, the entire binnacle, compass, wheel, stand all, stainless steel stove and restaurant hood and microwave, two refrigerators, a deep freezer, all of the lights and fixtutes and wiring, even (sorry, will continue in next post, ( the aluminum toilet paper roll holder.


BTW a 90" plasma has dimensions of approx 81" long X 18" deep X 49" tall.. Just how big is that companionway.....? Oh and they cost about 7k which is enough to do some nice cosmetic work to Miss Liberty. This may just may have prevented the county from deeming her a derelict vessel....

I've also never seen a "restaurant hood" that would even come close to fitting on that boat... Two refrigerators and a deep freezer, 1000W stereo and a 90" plasma? How did he power all this? Surely the little Honda on the back deck did all this...

I suspect he was talking about his storage unit that was pilfered but certainly not a boat of that size with the claimed gear on-board....

So even if he got the 90" TV on-board, perhaps the tarp is covering the access hole for the TV, 500 gallon tank and restaurant hood, where do you hang a 4' tall, 1.5' deep and 7' long TV on that boat? I also don't see any "solar panels" or "Wind generators" .....

A 500 gallon tank would be something like 8' long 2' tall and 4' wide and does not lend well to fitting "under the back deck" with a hull form like that......

I would like to hear more about how he "invented" wind generators. Invisible wind generators are surely to be a huge hit with the cruising community..

This is very amusing but just too far out there & far fetched. I'm suspecting we've been professionally trolled on this one...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

The plama TV fit in easily...they had apparently already widened th companionway for the 200 gallon aquarium and the grow lights for the pot plants.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Maine Sail said:


> Really still trying to figure out how all this:
> 
> BTW a 90" plasma has dimensions of approx 81" long X 18" deep X 49" tall.. Just how big is that companionway.....? Oh and they cost about 7k which is enough to do some nice cosmetic work to Miss Liberty. This may just may have prevented the county from deeming her a derelict vessel....
> 
> ...


Yea I think his storage unit is what he was calling his boat. Both are made out of concrete!

Here they are opening up his unit.







Maine Sail said:


> A 500 gallon tank would be something like 8' long 2' tall and 4' wide and does not lend well to fitting "under the back deck" with a hull form like that......


Yea, I think he meant "under the back deck behind his storage shed behind the trailer" like a large heating oil tank.



Maine Sail said:


> I would like to hear more about how he "invented" wind generators. Invisible wind generators are surely to be a huge hit with the cruising community..
> 
> This is very amusing but just too far out there & far fetched. I'm suspecting we've been professionally trolled on this one...


I think what was Invented was the fact that he had a boat at all! Yes obviously the poster does not have this boat, but it is entertaining to play along.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

When you go trolling, the object of your efforts is to hook something...lots of solid bites here!!!


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## Grunthrie (May 2, 2013)

(to a rap beat)
They see me trollin', They hatin'
SailNet posters they tryin' to catch me boatin dirty...

~Paraphrased from Chamillionaire's "Ridin Dirty" 

still, ate up 30 minutes of a boring night at work!


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

Hehehe! "Boatin' Dirty" So, anyways, I could use some help/advice... (Haters, here it is, you were right, I'm gonna come begging for something!?!?!) I'm really not good with basic math, might be a learning disability or years of booze, but I like to get a second opinion ... I'm trying to work out when it will go from a very low tide to a very high tide at Anclote Key, Florida. I will most likely need to float her at that time. That way I have to put less mechanical effort into lifting the keel, I'll let the tides do most of the work, plus, unless I am mistaken, I can be sure she's afloat before putting lift to the keel, I don't want to swamp her by listing her too far. I figure I'll have the most room for error at that point in the tide so I want to try to coordinate my efforts to coincide with that time...


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

I've used that pulling the mast technique sort of, we swung a weighted boom out to heel my buddie's 32 Morgan off a submerged sand bar in Clearwater inlet (when we were first learning the waters, ICW is great for powerboaters, not so much for sail, although there are some friendly old salts around always willing to help a fellow mariner... Unfortunately Libby doesn't have a mast anymore, she lost it in Debby .... I've had a string of particularly bad luck in the past year and a half. When Debby hit, even though it was just a tropical storm, it dropped like 2 and a half FEET of water on us in some ridiculously short period of time, I think an hour. Libby weathered that fine, right up until a tornado developed on Island Estates, curved out into the Mandalay Channel, and headed for Caladesi Island, hitting nothing, except Libby. A piece of the mast foot gave way and the mast toppled. The only reason we were headed north to begin with was to take her to Crystal River, where her new mast and repairs awaited I chose to tow her up because her electric engine installation was unfinished,, I figured I'd finish it while the rest was being worked on. The boat I was towing her up there with developed an issue with the motor, which is why I dropped anchor on Libby there, she would have been perfectly fine there, and I would just come back and get her when I'd resolved the other boat's issue, ( turned out to be a fuse)


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## Grunthrie (May 2, 2013)

So, now it's Debby? Get your storms/story straight, man! Still no after pics of 'your' boat...


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

captmetatron said:


> I'm really not good with basic math, might be a learning disability or years of booze, but I like to get a second opinion ... I'm trying to work out when it will go from a very low tide to a very high tide at Anclote Key, Florida.


Click on this link
http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/geo.shtml?location=8726724

Clearwater seems to be the closest tide station to you.

Click on tide predictions and/or extremes on the left
Pick your date and just read the tide for that day.

If this doesn't make sense just ask a question or two and we can explain how to read the graph but if you study it a bit it you may be able to make it out.

No math required.

Sorry for you loss.

Many of the guys and gals here have decades of boating experience. We have doctors, lawyers, accountants and probably every trade possible.

You might have the best luck focusing on specific questions rather than your story. What happened is done anyway and if you need information this is the place to come.

If you have multiple questions you will get better results if you start a new thread for each specific question.

Good luck


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

The boat looks okay to me, I don't see what everybody is complaining about.


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## MarioG (Sep 6, 2009)

I'm not trying to be funny but it's had to believe if you showed up with a case of beer, you will have all the help you need. 

I'm not sure the condition of the boat but it sounds like its going to cost alot of time and $$$ to get it sea worthy again. If you have the means to fix it: great if not you might want to think about how much more hassle its going to cause you.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

captmetatron said:


> When Debby hit, even though it was just a tropical storm, it dropped like 2 and a half FEET of water on us in some ridiculously short period of time, I think an hour.


Another one to add to the list of idiotic exaggerations! Not to mention (since someone else already did) that you've decided to change storms.

Oh yeah, and it takes about a minute on the internet to find the tracks of all of the tornadoes spawned by Debby, none of which "developed on Island Estates" or "curved out into the Mandalay Channel." In fact, it appears that the nearest tornado to that area was in the neighborhood of 15 or so miles away.

Then the one that I really had to laugh out loud about. Here we have a guy who calls himself "Capt," but doesn't know how to read a tide chart. I mean, really?

This is getting to be just too funny.



davidpm said:


> You might have the best luck focusing on specific questions rather than your story.


Yeah, but... He doesn't really HAVE any specific questions! All he's got is this silly, changing, incredible story. Don't you see? He's not here to get answers to questions. He just wants to spin a yarn. Practice his story telling. That sort of thing. It's really getting kind of entertaining, trying to guess what impossible situation he might come up with next.


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## Grunthrie (May 2, 2013)

Okay don, I'll take the bait:
It was actually andrew, and it took his keel and rudder along with his mast. Then the white zionist conspiracy headed by PCSO broadcast the location of his crock-boat to a flotilla of crack salvagers hopped up on methamphetamines with sufficient hardware and craft to hoist 15 tons of chain and a smallish sportsbar worth of hardware from his floating ctorage shed.


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

Update : scored approximately 18 40 gallon plastic drums as of Wednesday, I'll go see if they're suitable for the outrigger idea, and also a floating work platform might be handy to have nearby, just some plywood decking. What I am looking for is a pattern in the very low tide to very high tide, to give me an idea of when to schedule everything, get all the equipment together in a timely manner and be ready to take advantage of it. Of course I can read a tide chart, Even the thing I mention is actually almost pure speculation the tides will most likely coincide mostly with the predictions, but I just thought it might be fun to play along, be included, and the more educated guesses, the better a chance of it being at least close, hehehe!


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

Some people persist with the financial disparity. I know sailing is the sport of kings, and nowdays it seems that you need the national bank of abu shaving to afford to participate. I. am not rich.monetarily. I have good friends who want to help. They help me for several reaaons, amongst them the fact that I have most likely helped them. And most likely will again.Uplift in your community, even if only for the most selfish of reasons, that if those in your community ate well off you are sure to benefit by proxy as well.Many of my neighbors think that both I and the Miss Liberty are Clearwater Beach Icons, and often help out for no other reason.She can be resurected, I am a fairly healthy man of 41 who's been around a bit. I don't have a PhD in sailology, I don't know everything, or even close, but I got around a little, I learned enough to handle her myself. There was already lots of work to be done, but I'm prettycapableIm pretty sure I can do it. If the roof blew off your house, you don't just abandon the house, say "oh well " and walk away, you fix it, usually, using that which remains that's structurally sound. The Sailors used to repair damage to their ships at sea and on strange coasts I see no reason it cannot be done. I am planning to sail in Gasparilla this next February. I don't have the money specifically to pull it all off yet, but some dear friends have gone out of their way to throw me some work, and usually pay me even a little more than the jobs are worth, be aide everyone wants us back, and so. Back we will be.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

captmetatron said:


> I am planning to sail in Gasparilla this next February. I don't have the money specifically to pull it all off yet, but some dear friends have gone out of their way to throw me some work, and usually pay me even a little more than the jobs are worth, be aide everyone wants us back, and so. Back we will be.


Good luck.
Where did you get the drums


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

there is a fine line between "icon" and "blight".
Hate to burst your ego, but if you're getting fined because you don't/can't/won't take care of your boat, you're not an icon.

It ain't about finances. it's about seamanship and caring about/for your vessel. Your boat has been aground for months, and you're just getting around to giving a crap about doing something about it.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

bljones said:


> there is a fine line between "icon" and "blight".
> Hate to burst your ego, but if you're getting fined because you don't/can't/won't take care of your boat, you're not an icon.
> 
> It ain't about finances. it's about seamanship and caring about/for your vessel. Your boat has been aground for months, and you're just getting around to giving a crap about doing something about it.


I suspect he was fined and sentenced to jail time because the pictured boat in this thread is a gross misrepresentation of what it actually looked like when the LEO's began fining him.

It sounds like it was basically a mast-less floating storage unit & not anything close to a sail boat when the LEO's came down on him. I don't blame the city for wanting an eyesore & potential pollution issue off their waters. As always, it appears it is someone's fault but the person doing the crime.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

bljones said:


> there is a fine line between "icon" and "blight".
> Hate to burst your ego, but if you're getting fined because you don't/can't/won't take care of your boat, you're not an icon.
> 
> It ain't about finances. it's about seamanship and caring about/for your vessel. Your boat has been aground for months, and you're just getting around to giving a crap about doing something about it.


Hang on...

Blight + Icon= Beacon. I got it!!! Let's put a flashing red light on there and all is good.

Brian


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

captmetatron said:


> Update : scored approximately 18 40 gallon plastic drums as of Wednesday, I'll go see if they're suitable for the outrigger idea, and also a floating work platform might be handy to have nearby, just some plywood decking. What I am looking for is a pattern in the very low tide to very high tide, to give me an idea of when to schedule everything, get all the equipment together in a timely manner and be ready to take advantage of it. Of course I can read a tide chart, Even the thing I mention is actually almost pure speculation the tides will most likely coincide mostly with the predictions, but I just thought it might be fun to play along, be included, and the more educated guesses, the better a chance of it being at least close, hehehe!


Haven't you been boating in the area for like 5 years, seems you would be familiar with the tides.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

I'm not sure which is funnier; the tall tale or that some of you continue to ask legit questions

This is all farce, full of wild nonsense and errors of fact


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

bljones said:


> Hate to burst your ego, but if you're getting fined because you don't/can't/won't take care of your boat, you're not an icon.


Yeah, really. In his mind he's a "captain" and an "icon." I'm willing to bet that at least 90% of the people who are forced to interact with him would use different terms.

Still, it is entertaining, isn't it? I'm especially amused by how skilled he is at avoiding any acknowledgment of all of the lies and exaggerations that he's been caught in. What could be next?


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

The barrels contained laundry soap for one of the big hotels here, essentially it costs them to be rid of them as they take up room in their dumpster, so they let me have 'em for nothing.


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## captmetatron (Jul 13, 2013)

I can read a tide chart just fine. Tide charts are a prediction, not a fact and in particular I'm looking for an extreme low tide followed by an extreme high tide, not just a low tide followed by a high tide, and even the best guess as to when that will happen is still just a GUESS, so I'd like to hear as many educated guesses as possible ...


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)




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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)




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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

If this guy had some sea miles maybe he'd be a modern day Tristan Jones type story teller. Has a good audience here. Maybe he can write an ebook and get some dough together. Stranger things have happened


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