# selling my house to buy a boat



## ryanct (Apr 22, 2010)

I have accepted an offer on my house, so if everything goes as planned, I should be able to buy a boat sometime in June.

My rough plan is to buy a sailboat that is large enough to be comfortable for 1-2 people to live in, that I can take down the coast and eventually cross oceans with. 

My sailing experience is limited to lasers and hobie cats on a lake, so I plan to do some crew training and day skipper training, and possibly some 'own-boat tuition' before taking the new boat out.

Most of my cruising will be around the BC coastline and Vancouver Island, but I definitely want to venture further south as my skills and boat permit. I will mostly likely have another person with me, but I definitely want the option of sailing solo as well, so that might put an upper limit on the size of the boat.

Does anyone have any suggestions as far as what kind of boat I should looking at? I have been browsing yachtworld and have been gravitating towards 40 foot ketches and yawls. There is a nice looking motorsailer nearby as well, what kind of compromises and trade-offs are involved with a motorsailer compared to a more traditional sailing vessel? 

Also any help with choosing what hull material to go with would be much appreciated. And, can anyone who has owned a boat like this give some indication of what I can expect in maintenance costs? I'm quite mechanically inclined and can do a lot of work myself.

Ryan


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Here's a pretty good thread where people talked about different boat types for coastal cruising:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising-liveaboard-forum/53366-production-boats-limits.html


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A lot of this will depend on what your budget is. 

Given your relative lack of sailing experience, I would recommend you stick with boats 30-35' LOA or so. The costs of boat ownership double with every 10' or so in additional length, and the systems on the larger boats are often more complex and more expensive to maintain, repair or replace. Be aware that a 40' boat is not 133% the size of a 30' boat, but more like 240% the size, as they grow in width, length and depth. 

I'd point out that getting a boat that is in very good shape is generally far less expensive in both time and money than getting the same boat in poor shape and restoring it. 

As for materials, unless you're planning on sailing in high latitudes, your best bet is probably going for a GRP or fiberglass hull. Wooden boats, with the exception of cold-molded wood, are generally a lot more maintenance, as are steel boats. Aluminum boats can have serious galvanic corrosion issues.


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## ryanct (Apr 22, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Here's a pretty good thread where people talked about different boat types for coastal cruising:


Smackdaddy, thanks for the link, very informative read, I'm almost halfway through.


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## ryanct (Apr 22, 2010)

sailingdog said:


> A lot of this will depend on what your budget is.
> 
> Given your relative lack of sailing experience, I would recommend you stick with boats 30-35' LOA or so. The costs of boat ownership double with every 10' or so in additional length, and the systems on the larger boats are often more complex and more expensive to maintain, repair or replace. Be aware that a 40' boat is not 133% the size of a 30' boat, but more like 240% the size, as they grow in width, length and depth.
> 
> I'd point out that getting a boat that is in very good shape is generally far less expensive in both time and money than getting the same boat in poor shape and restoring it.


Sailingdog,

Thanks for the comments. Although I lack experience now, I have the plans and the budget to spend the next couple of years getting expert instruction and practice, so I am not too worried about being able to sail a larger boat. By the time I set sail for any length of time I will have logged lots of hours on smaller boats through the sailing school, and lots of hours on my own boat in sheltered waters.

So I suppose it will mostly be a balance of living space vs. maintenance costs. Can anyone comment on how suitable a 30-35 foot boat would be for a young guy and his girlfriend (who will have her own place but will definitely be over lots) to live on? Oh ya I have cats too.

This is probably a hard question to answer, but I am optimistic about the amount of boat ownership experience in this forum: Can anyone provide a ballpark, dollar estimate of annual maintenance costs for fiberglass boats in the 30, 35 and 40ft ranges?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

ryanct said:


> Smackdaddy, thanks for the link, very informative read, I'm almost halfway through.


No worries dude.


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## ryanct (Apr 22, 2010)

sailingdog said:


> A lot of this will depend on what your budget is.


Good point, I should have included that. I expect to have around $50k to spend on the boat itself, but would probably prefer to buy something in the mid forties.

I'd be looking for boats either in BC, Washington, or Oregon, but I have not started looking into the details of importing a boat into Canada.


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## Architeuthis (Mar 3, 2008)

ryanct said:


> So I suppose it will mostly be a balance of living space vs. maintenance costs. Can anyone comment on how suitable a 30-35 foot boat would be for a young guy and his girlfriend (who will have her own place but will definitely be over lots) to live on? Oh ya I have cats too.
> 
> This is probably a hard question to answer, but I am optimistic about the amount of boat ownership experience in this forum: Can anyone provide a ballpark, dollar estimate of annual maintenance costs for fiberglass boats in the 30, 35 and 40ft ranges?


Only a fool would sell everything, quit work, and go sailing...but some of us fools are having a great time!!!

You are getting good advice here, go small, go quality, and get a boat that does not need any work.

Ok about that part about a boat not needing any work....that is never the case. Even if you got a brand new boat it will need lots of work. A brand new boat that has just been outfitted and commissioned will need work. All boats need work, all the time!

Ok it isn't quite that bad but you will be living on this boat, working on a boat and living on it is not the best situation, do able but you want to keep the big projects to a minimum.

So get a boat that is newer or in very good shape.

As for size, we got a 32' and have lots of room for us and we could handle a cat, I would prefer a dog but no need to go there at this time.

The only thing I would have liked is a shower. Some of the marinas we have stayed at (and very few anchorages) have had showers, at least nice showers I like to use.

Buy a coastal cruiser that can do oceans rather than a passage maker that can coastal cruise. It takes a while to get comfortable with the boat and set up for passages, maybe years so buy a boat for now. Trading up later will always be an option.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A budget of $50,000 isn't going to get anything in the 40' or above range that isn't in need of a full refurbishment or pretty close to it. Given your budget, you might really want to re-think the size boat you're looking at.


ryanct said:


> Good point, I should have included that. I expect to have around $50k to spend on the boat itself, but would probably prefer to buy something in the mid forties.
> 
> I'd be looking for boats either in BC, Washington, or Oregon, but I have not started looking into the details of importing a boat into Canada.


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## Architeuthis (Mar 3, 2008)

ryanct said:


> Good point, I should have included that. I expect to have around $50k to spend on the boat itself, but would probably prefer to buy something in the mid forties. .


oh oh, that is IMO rather low for what you are trying to do with the experience you have. Doable but could be a challenge that is all. If that 50k is total boat purchase, repair, outfitting and first year boat expenses you may want to go alot smaller and alot older than I was thinking. With a 50k budget I would suggest that looking at boats around the 40k and under mark....well do a search on the net, maybe check out a few and you'll have an idea of what kind of boat you'll be looking at.

edit: Also what kind of living budget will you have? We went with less adventure time and higher living budget to have more fun, others can live off beans, literally beans.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> A budget of $50,000 isn't going to get anything in the 40' or above range that isn't in need of a full refurbishment or pretty close to it. Given your budget, you might really want to re-think the size boat you're looking at.


C'mon Dog, that's nonsense. Quit making such broad statements dude. It just takes work to find a good boat for a good price.

Here's a possible example Ryan:

1992 Beneteau First 41s5 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Based on the specs - it looks like a great deal - and I bet you could get very close to the $50K with a cash offer. Of course, without a survey who knows for sure. But, I hardly think you're talking about a "full refurbishment".

Had I not made the commitment to hold off on a cruising boat for a few years and just charter, I'd be on a plane to St. Martin to check this boat out. Also, several others there in the 38 range.

(PS - Ryan, I know you mentioned that you wanted a yawl or ketch - so this probably isn't your boat type. But don't get discouraged. You can find plenty out there. It just might take a year or so.)


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

You can use yachtworld.com as a comparison site. There's tons of information, and usually a lot of pics. Start tire kicking with brokers. It cost you nothing. Do not let them make suggestions to you. They want to sell you a boat, and very few have the honor to sell you what you need.

Do your own research through site like Y.W.com, and then approach a broker with something you have in mind. 35-40ft. is very comfortable for a couple, and occassional guest. Remeber no one boat is all that. It's all a compromise. Something that sails well, but not spectacular & is built tough is what you want. Sounds to me like in the future you will be sticking your toe in the waters to test it. If things go well there is no doubt you will keep expanding your horizons. BEST WISHES in find a vessel to serve you & your needs well.......*i2f*


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Cruisers & Sailing Forums - View Profile: MarkJ

Check this guy out. He bought a Bene in St. Maarten less than 2 years ago, and already has sailed 2/3 the way around the world. If you treat buying a boat as business, and not get all in love with the first one you see. You can find DEALS. I bought my boat near 40 cents on the $ in St. Maarten. It's aplace of broken dreams. Just as the Sea of Cortez is, and other spots around the world....SHOP.SHOP.SHOP.......*i2f*


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

imagine2frolic said:


> Cruisers & Sailing Forums - View Profile: MarkJ
> 
> Check this guy out. He bought a Bene in St. Maarten less than 2 years ago, and already has sailed 2/3 the way around the world. If you treat buying a boat as business, and not get all in love with the first one you see. You can find DEALS. I bought my boat near 40 cents on the $ in St. Maarten. It's aplace of broken dreams. Just as the Sea of Cortez is, and other spots around the world....SHOP.SHOP.SHOP.......*i2f*


+1.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

You should be able to get a decent cruising boat for this area at $50K.. but I'd lower the length OA to get both a boat that's in better condition and one that'll be easier to handle.

I'd be looking at mid 30 feet for the right compromise between living space and ease of handling. We've been to 40 feet, and are now at 35 and are enjoying the lighter gear, less expensive moorage, and reduced expenses in all areas. We routinely live aboard for 5-6 weeks each summer in BC and we are quite comfortable.

Importing a boat into Canada is simple... a phone call, perhaps an inspection, and you'll need to write a check for GST/PST (or HST however that works out) Keep in mind that only boats built in North America are duty-free so check the Beneteaus and Jeanneaus - some are and some aren't built "here'. Should you fall in love with a Euro or Orient built boat you can count on another 9.5% duty on top.

In the past 5-6 years we've been involved in importing a half dozen boats, including our own, so if you have questions PM me....

Good luck.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

imagine2frolic said:


> Cruisers & Sailing Forums - View Profile: MarkJ
> 
> Check this guy out. He bought a Bene in St. Maarten less than 2 years ago, and already has sailed 2/3 the way around the world. If you treat buying a boat as business, and not get all in love with the first one you see. You can find DEALS. I bought my boat near 40 cents on the $ in St. Maarten. It's aplace of broken dreams. Just as the Sea of Cortez is, and other spots around the world....SHOP.SHOP.SHOP.......*i2f*


I2F - a brief hijack, what is the typical tax one can expect to pay (percentage) in St. Martin? Is it paid on the sale price? Then how is it treated when you bring her back to the US?


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## ryanct (Apr 22, 2010)

Architeuthis said:


> oh oh, that is IMO rather low for what you are trying to do with the experience you have. Doable but could be a challenge that is all. If that 50k is total boat purchase, repair, outfitting and first year boat expenses you may want to go alot smaller and alot older than I was thinking. With a 50k budget I would suggest that looking at boats around the 40k and under mark....well do a search on the net, maybe check out a few and you'll have an idea of what kind of boat you'll be looking at.
> 
> edit: Also what kind of living budget will you have? We went with less adventure time and higher living budget to have more fun, others can live off beans, literally beans.


$50k is about the max I want to spend on the boat itself, after setting some aside for insurance, maintenance, sailing training, for the next two years or so. If needed I could stretch into the mid or high fifties, but this starts to eat into the budget for maintenance and improvements. But I like your advice about not trying to save money by getting something that needs a bunch of work, I've already learned that lesson about the marine world the hard way. (off-topic: anyone interested in taking on a classic salmon troller project?)

Regarding my living budget, I have the advantage of being able to work from home (or sea) as long as I have a laptop, and occasionally an internet connection. An extra monitor is always nice too. I have a 3G internet stick, so while cruising I'm hoping that I can get in range of cell towers once in a while.

So, I may be a fool, but I don't have to quit my job for this plan to work, and I'm still young and naive enough to actually do it.

Ryan


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## utchuckd (Apr 4, 2010)

I've just started my boat search too, and have been checking out some C&C's and Morgans from the early 80's. Looks like you can get something in the 32-35 foot range for $30-$40K, depending on condition. You can actually get one a bit cheaper but I'm not sure on the condition of those.


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## Architeuthis (Mar 3, 2008)

Well if money is still coming in then this is very doable. I started with a 50K budget for just the boat but found that adding another 20k actually saved money on the repair outfitting end for the size of boat I wanted. 

Whatever your budget be sure to look at boats with twice the asking price. They may not accept your offer, you may not even make an offer but follow the ones you are interested in. Often a sale on a much more expensive boat can be made if you have already done your research and can do a quick cash deal. 

I would also suggest lots of research, research everything about every boat that makes your list. It may not always result in a better deal, though it often will, but what it does do is make sure you understand all the main issues, it's kind of a comfort thing.


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## ryanct (Apr 22, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> C'mon Dog, that's nonsense. Quit making such broad statements dude. It just takes work to find a good boat for a good price.
> 
> Here's a possible example Ryan:
> 
> ...


Not too bad looking. I've spent lots of time looking at boats online, including yachtworld, but had mostly confined my search to the pacific northwest.

What do you think of these two:
1986 Catalina Tall Rig Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

and

1988 Beneteau 350 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Would these boats fall into the "major refurbishment" category?

Oh ya I've got nothing against a sloop or a cutter, but if I had the choice between two comparable boats, I'd probably opt for the one with two masts.

Ryan


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Cat 36 is an amazingly "large" 36 footer.. this one looks pretty nice but remember it's just pictures - you need to see it for yourself.

It also has the advantage over the Bene in OR that it can be sailed home easily on her own bottom. From Newport it's a slog up the coast or trucking - with the latter recommended strongly for someone in your position.


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## ryanct (Apr 22, 2010)

Faster said:


> It also has the advantage over the Bene in OR that it can be sailed home easily on her own bottom. From Newport it's a slog up the coast or trucking - with the latter recommended strongly for someone in your position.


Very true, by the time I am ready to buy I will have just done the day skipper course, so I will not be looking for too challenging of a cruise back to Victoria.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Faster's right. There's a buddy of mine that comes on here every once and while (MazeRat). He just bought a C36 that I've been on. It's a big boat. You should look him up around SN if you're serious about the Catalina.

Neither of the boats you show look like they are in need of a "complete refurbishment". Far from it. That's why I thought that comment was silly.

But Faster's also right in that they're just pictures. Like with anything, you never know until you inspect it and get a survey.

Just don't get discouraged. Find the boat you want and go sailing. Just be willing to spend a good deal of time looking and learning.


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## ryanct (Apr 22, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Just don't get discouraged. Find the boat you want and go sailing. Just be willing to spend a good deal of time looking and learning.


No problem there, I'm not easily discouraged and I'm definitely looking forward to spending a few months shopping for a boat. And, based on the advice so far I will most likely shift my search to the 35-40ft range, and look for boats that are as new and as complete as possible.

That said, what should I be looking for while inspecting boats? I obviously can't pay for a survey for each boat I consider, so how do I get to the point of bringing in a surveyor? Other than the obvious like visible cracks around stress points, and general condition, I'm not quite sure what to look for. I imagine there is probably already a forum thread discussing this, if so feel free to point me in the right direction.

Ryan


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## utchuckd (Apr 4, 2010)

Sailingdog has a Boat Inspection Tips thread around here somewhere. Look in some of the other 'I wanna buy a boat' threads and it should be linked.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Dog has a good thread that goes through what you need when looking at a boat yourself. With all the gear you're carrying, you'll look like Gilligan when you show up to look at a boat - but it's great advice:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/48177-boat-inspection-trip-tips.html










And you should have a look at the "Salt's Corner Table" thread which has all kinds of gems from Salts around here:

*The Salt's Corner Table*

Enjoy.

(PS - check out the rolling furler on the sprit behind Little Buddy. Wasn't this thing shot in the '60s or something? The had RF back then? I didn't even know they had fiberglass yet.)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Just curious Smacky, but how much do you think it would cost to get that boat to the OP's cruising area of the Pacific NorthWest??? _He's pretty much restricted to buying boats on the West Coast of the US, unless he wants to blow a good chunk of his budget on delivering the boat._ Boats on the west coast aren't going to be discounted like that. Besides, I'd bet that there are some serious problems with that boat.



smackdaddy said:


> C'mon Dog, that's nonsense. Quit making such broad statements dude. It just takes work to find a good boat for a good price.
> 
> Here's a possible example Ryan:
> 
> ...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> Just curious Smacky, but how much do you think it would cost to get that boat to the OP's cruising area of the Pacific NorthWest??? _He's pretty much restricted to buying boats on the West Coast of the US, unless he wants to blow a good chunk of his budget on delivering the boat._ Boats on the west coast aren't going to be discounted like that. Besides, I'd bet that there are some serious problems with that boat.


That's his business, of course. I'm just showing one example of how making a broad statement like that is silly. You absolutely can find great 40+ boats for $50K. Boats that are not even remotely in need of "complete refurbishment".

Anyway, now you're hedging with delivery costs, geographic discounts, betting on problems, blah, blah. That boat inspection thread though....GOLD!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Smackdaddy, not to be a wet blanket but a newbie could blow a lot of money flying into foreign ports to look at boats which...if they have problems, can't be solved in the US legal system. Double ka-ching. 

OTOH if you're going to one of those places for a week of chartering, and tack on another week to go poking around the brokers...AND feel up to a DIY survey...

That would be nice.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

ryan, here's my pragmatic take on an annual maintenance budget: 
20%, It's that simple. It will always be 20%, no matter how nice or poor the boat you originally buy. here's why:
Allotting 20% of the original purchase price gives you a tangible, reasonable figure that is big enough to cover most serious projects, and if you don't use it to make repairs, you use it for upgrades. The boat may occasionally need more than 20% to be perfect, but in most cases 20% is what you can afford without crimping your lifestyle, or making you hate your boat. Fixing that 20% figure in your mind when you go boat shopping will also prevent you from dreaming, and doing something stupid like buying a hopeless project that needs everything, or buying more boat than you can comfortably afford to maintain.
And, believe me, you will be maintaining. A sailboat is like a peeler bar- the cover charge may not be too bad, but the drinks ain't cheap.

personally, i think you may already be in trouble. At the start of this thread, your budget was $50k... then it crept to $55k... if we can milk this thread for another couple of pages we'll have your budget boosted to $85k and you still won't feel like that is enough money.

What maintenance skills do you bring to the party? the going rate in boatyards is around $100/hr. if you don't make $100/hr after tax at your day job, remember that you will be working an hour plus for every hour that someone else gets paid to maintain your boat. So, while you are learning how to sail, earmark some time and some budget to buying tools and learning how to use them. you can thank me later.
BTW, personally, i think this is a great west coast cruiser for a couple. 
Devlin Oysta Motorsailor - Vancouver Sailboats For Sale - Kijiji Vancouver


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Totally agree hello. The only point I'm trying to make is that making such categorical statements to newbs is not only not helpful, but is very misleading. It's all about options and priorities when buying - and most newbs are going to be pretty careful before throwing down the Big Fitty anyway.

So why not start out by giving people's smarts (even newbies) the benefit of the doubt instead of the other way around?

Like I said above, it's totally ryan's call on whether he wants to buy a boat in the Carib or Portland. But as I2F proved above - there are some incredible deals out there. You just have to look. And if someone has told you not to bother - well - is that really good advice?


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## ryanct (Apr 22, 2010)

bljones said:


> What maintenance skills do you bring to the party? the going rate in boatyards is around $100/hr. if you don't make $100/hr after tax at your day job, remember that you will be working an hour plus for every hour that someone else gets paid to maintain your boat. So, while you are learning how to sail, earmark some time and some budget to buying tools and learning how to use them. you can thank me later.


Regarding maintenance skills, my experience is mostly with land vehicles like cars, trucks, dune buggies and motorcycles, but even without any formal education in the field I have rebuilt engines and an automatic transmission, in addition to maintaining and repairing many vehicles over the years. One I built from a bunch of parts. I have played around with 5 or 6 boats ranging from driving them to rescuing one at anchor from failing electrical systems and rising bilge water level. I have also lived in a truck-top camper for a short time so I am a bit familiar with mobile appliances and systems like propane and inverters, etc.

Generally I am hesitant to pay people to do things for me since when you outsource the job you outsource the learning that comes by doing it. But, I am also quick to recognize when I'm out of my area and it makes sense to pay for someone else's expertise.

Given discussions I have already read, I estimate I will be in the 10% range for annual maintenance costs, not counting moorage and insurance and such.

You might be right about the budget creeping up, but it doesn't have too much further to go. I suppose that since this thread started I've re-evaluated how much of my total budget I should keep aside and how much should be spent on the boat itself up front.

PS I like that you think of it as a party, I try to keep a similar attitude.


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## ehmanta (Sep 12, 2006)

Ryan,
As you may be starting to figure out, many people here will offer many different viewpoints based on their own experience. But what boat you wind up with is one that you can look at from a distance and feel a sense of pride........people shouldn't own boats they don't love! There's probably a correlation somewhere that compares the condition/upkeep of a boat to the amount of pride one has for his/her vessel 
All that being said, you could look at the Tartan 37, which can be had for your target price, has a great following, great pedigree (Sparkman, Stevens design), and has crossed oceans while being perfectly at home in bays and sounds. Practical Sailor did a write up on affordable cruisers last April and the T37 was one. Might be worth looking up an old issue. Another boat to consider could be an Erickson 38 (Bruce King Design)from the eighties, good looking boat with nice amenitites. 
Whichever boat you look at, make sure it has adequate ventilation. So many boats have large fixed ports and can be stuffy. This will be especially important for livaboards, but it's easy to overlook when your first looking at boats and it's cool outside.....you just don't think to notice.
Good luck, it seems that you have the right attitude. 
Tom


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I just completed 6 months of searching with my first major keelboat purchase. I started with a $10-25k price range, worked my way up to looking $70k boats, and came to my senses and spent $15k. But I wasn't looking to liveaboard.

IMO, the biggest thing to watch out for in "budget boats" (35-40' for <$50k is definitely a budget boat) is moisture intrusion and mold/mildew. These things do not show up in pictures. Learn to recognize the signs as you shop. Rely heavily on your nose to detect the sour smell of mildew. Show up 30+ minutes early for your appointments so the owner/broker does not have time to air out the boat before you board. You want to get a whiff of what's inside the moment he opens the companionway.


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## Maxboatspeed (Apr 11, 2010)

*Just do it....*

Ryan,
Do it. That is what you'll hear from many long range cruisers.
There are many things to learn about and consider.
Here's some of what I know.
-It's a good idea to shop around and become familiar with what's out there. 
-Try to learn all you can about older proven offshore boats and the equipment. 
-Living on a boat in the PNW while working on it is difficult. I think you get this from your experience with the RV. Tools, torn up stuff, cats, two people, cold winters. You get it. 
-a sound design, hull, rig are top concerns. Figure out what else is important to you. The more "stuff" you have, the more you have to maintain.
-living in Van on a boat and cruising it are two totally different things. Think about that. 
- there are a lot of boats in Florida and the Carribean that are good and less expensive. Also, these boats are proven and where you probably want to be.
- although the desire for two masts is understood, there are very few 30-40 ketches or yawls anymore.
-start looking at all the boats you can find that might interest you. Do NOT fall in love yet. Plan on learning a lot. Open every hatch, locker, floorboard. Look hard at wiring and systems. Learn what is important in rigging, etc. Know that you can make a fair assessment of the shape and value of a boat. You can learn and do this and it is part of being a cruiser. 
- read magazines, books, ect about cruising.
- like the guy said T37s, Ericksons, etc are well known as capable, solid, older boats. There are a lot more.

Oh ya, don't listen to nay-sayers. Do it but do your homework too.

Max


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

smackdaddy-
"So why not start out by giving people's smarts (even newbies) the benefit of the doubt instead of the other way around?"
I don't question their smarts, rather I question the integrity of the sellers. For instance, the broker selling that BendyToy KNOWS the engine was replaced, but makes no mention of it. I say KNOWS because no boat that old has 50-odd hours on the original engine, which they clearly show on the Hobbs meter. Would a newb, even the smartest newb, pick up on that? Or, simply see what they were shown, an engine with little time on it?
Part of being new to something is simply not having had the time and experience to get a depth of knowledge in it. Water intrusion into bulkheads and decks, damage at chainplates, crevice corrosion and Beneteau rudder and keel idiosyncracies, all are just strange noises out in the jungle at night. 
Who'd think that Beneteau typically used bolt-on cast iron keels, rather than the common lead ones? Or carbon-fiber rudder posts--on some models--to avoid the problems with stainless ones? Or, even be aware that stainless wasn't forever, and that aging rudder tubes (especially on shallow-draft boats with deep rudders, as B often builds) would be problematic. In an area that eyeballs and fingertips rarely go?
I mean, I've also rebuilt engines (although I'm no Indy crew chief) and I've never met a tool I can't master (of the mechanical kind<G>) but still, I know I'm not the only one who has been surprised "Gee, how did the water damage get all the way down there?!" or "Who the hell did that?!"
Brokers and sellers play cutesy all too often, that's the way of the world. There's a lot of un-obvious "stuff" that can burn your wallet on a boat, and sallying forth to check them out long distance, pretty much cut off from the legal system and rules that you MIGHT know from home, adds an extra layer of risk. So I'd rather throw up an extra caution flag, and leave it to the viewer to decide if they should ignore it, or carry on.

As for folks throwing down fifty grand...Maybe you heard of a mortgage crisis that the US is still trying to get out of? All those folks who went underwater, ALL those folks who defaulted or are still losing it? Yeah, they threw down a lot of money--or the committment to a lot of money--without understanding the risks either. Somehow, they didn't get the message, that you really CAN get buried fast. And houses are certainly no more complicated than boats in foreign markets.

I'd rather see someone get accidentally insulted, than someone get burnt.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Hello, you just provided a tremendous response to the question at hand. You gave a newb plenty of info to make a better, more informed decision. You told him or her what to look out for, etc. And you did it without being insulting or throwing down broad categorical statements.

What's not to like?

+1

(PS - As for the engine in question, maybe you're right. Who knows? That's all part of the due diligence process. Would that stop me personally from looking based on your assumption? Heck no. Oh, and let those same newbs try to get that $50K loan now.)


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## Polypterus (Dec 16, 2009)

My two cents as a newb who just bought a boat is that boats are rarely (if ever) as good as the pictures or the description. If you are going any distance to see a boat, ask everything you can think of before going to see her. You may not get the whole truth but sometimes you get enough to keep you from wasting your time and money. Secondly I'm sure you know to always get a survey before buying but also expect to find things that the surveyor didn't. Hopefully those things are small. For example I had a mechanic survey the engine on my boat. He gave it thumbs up. However my regular surveyor caught a couple things that the mechanic didn't. One water fitting was cross threaded and also there was small fuel leak. Overall the engine seems to still be in great shape. Even so, looking around the boat I have found a few other small things that need to be fixed. Then there are upgrades. Overall I agree with those telling you that you need to have at least 20% for maintenance in the first year. That might even be low depending on what you want to do.

Finally I also agree that you should get a boat that you love, but I also think that you need to look at a lot of boats before you settle on one. When I fist stated looking I wanted a small schooner. However after seeing more boats, doing more reading and talking to a lot of people I ended up with a sloop. I think if I had bought the sloop initially without going through the processes I wouldn't have been so happy with my decision. Having gone though the search kind of settled my mind on what I really want. 

As I'm sure you know, salient is a good source of information and people here are really helpful. I usually end up asking questions, talking to people, reading a lot of books. In the end I make my own decision factoring in what I have learned. As with everything (but especially with boats  ) you will find that opinions differ vastly. You may get a lot of conflicting advice. In the end it's up to you. Take everything into account then go with your gut.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

I think it is important to educate yourself as much as possible before you make any choices about the boats you are looking for.

Read, read, read.

I found Nigal Calders cruising book (the first half) very helpful. It really helped me understand WHY some features are better than others for a cruising boat. Although, I disagree with the extent he goes in some of his equipment.


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## kumgang (Apr 11, 2010)

I'm about to do the same, but my budget is lesser, and my idea is to buy a boat (wood) around 30 feet max.
Here you can find wooden boats that size for less than $20k (in good condition), and I hope to find one from 10 to 15k.


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## ryanct (Apr 22, 2010)

This forum is amazing, I'm getting a good variety of advice. To be honest, I was expecting one or two replies, definitely not the wealth of knowledge that has poured forth. So, thanks!

There seem to be two broad categories of considerations here:

1. things about the boat that affect its value relative to its peers

This would be most of the things mentioned about condition, water intrusion, maintenance history, equipment, tankage, electronics, etc.

2. things about the boat that determine how suitable it is for me

Like its size, type of keel, rigging type and sail inventory, fore/aft position of rudder, mast, etc, how well equipped it is for the cruising I want to do


From what some of you have been saying, it seems like I will not possibly select a boat that is suitable for my sailing personality, since I don't have one yet. So basically I can only get to know what kind of boat I need by sailing, sailing and sailing.

Given that, and given the fact that I want to buy and live on the boat quite soon (3-4 months) I can at least set out to purchase something that will hold its value as well as possible given proper maintenance. That way, if a couple of years from now it makes sense to make a boat change, I will still have a very sellable boat that will be right for someone if not me.

I appreciate the specific manufacturer/model suggestions, there are a lot of the ones mentioned close to me. I found a moisture meter on ebay for $160, so once that arrives and I have finalized this house sale, there are probably 20 boats within 100 miles of where I live that fit my rough criteria, so time to see some boats!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Just be careful using a moisture meter - accurate interpretation of the reading is difficult for an inexperienced user. Conditions must be correct too.. using a meter on a freshly-hauled boat can be misleading, or recent rain can cause problems too.

Significant delamination or separation is easily found with a 'tap test'... using a plastic hammer or even the handle end of a small screwdriver, tap the deck thoroughly, esp around stanchions and other fittings and you'll hear a sharp "tap" when things are good, and a definitely dull "thud" when they aren't. Worse cases you'll actually feel a bounce.

The strong Loonie is going to make your hunt a much better one south of the border.. unfortunately (for Canadian sellers) there is always a better selection there, but at least now you'll get a better deal on the boat and it will save you money in taxes too, as the bill is based on the $C equivalent of the purchase price.

Should you go south, don't be tempted to falsify your purchase price to save a few tax dollars... the customs folks are pretty adept at google and yachtworld searches and will have some pretty pointed questions as to why you got "such a deal"..

Best of luck...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

ryan-
"I can at least set out to purchase something that will hold its value "
FWIW, that also means "no oddball boats!". You'll find that certain brands and certain models have a continual market and reputation, so they may cost a bit more up front but they'll also be more sought after when/if you try to sell it. 
As for what's the right boat for you...you're also right on the track about that. Some boats handle very sweetly, some are real bitches in terms of trim and balance and weather motions. Some are very easy to get up to speed, others have a very narrow "slot" and performance falls off radically if your trim isn't just right. Can't tell 'em apart unless you've been out on them in that weather, or you try to check up on reputations. With a grain of salt. 
But if you buy right, and you don't throw a ton of money into stuff that devalues fast...odds are you can change boats 2-5 years down the line without losing much on it. In the meantime, if there's a local yacht club where you can bum rides as racing crew? That's a good way to find out how different boats handle, even if you have no great interest in racing.
And if you think you'll never have any interest in racing--think again. When you want to grab the last mooring in a port before sunset, or get to a dinner reservation on time, you'll be racing anyhow.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

hellosailor said:


> .......In the meantime, if there's a local yacht club where you can bum rides as racing crew? That's a good way to find out how different boats handle, even if you have no great interest in racing.
> _*And if you think you'll never have any interest in racing--think again. When you want to grab the last mooring in a port before sunset, or get to a dinner reservation on time, you'll be racing anyhow.*_


This is excellent advice... and very true. Racing will teach you the right moves, good trim, when to tack, to pay attention to currents and you'll quite easily save an hour on a typical 20-30 mile day trip, making it more likely to get that last ball or space on the dock at your destination....

We raced for many years, not so much anymore but I can assure you we don't sail our boat any differently either way.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

ryanct said:


> From what some of you have been saying, it seems like I will not possibly select a boat that is suitable for my sailing personality, since I don't have one yet. So basically I can only get to know what kind of boat I need by sailing, sailing and sailing.
> 
> Given that, and given the fact that I want to buy and live on the boat quite soon (3-4 months) I can at least set out to purchase something that will hold its value as well as possible given proper maintenance. That way, if a couple of years from now it makes sense to make a boat change, I will still have a very sellable boat that will be right for someone if not me.


You also said in a prior post:
"My rough plan is to buy a sailboat that is large enough to be comfortable for 1-2 people to live in, that I can take down the coast and eventually cross oceans with."

You have gotten some great advice but their may a couple more pieces of the puzzle.

1. Your definition of comfortable and your crews definition of comfortable.
2. Your personal tolerance for risk and how you will end up on the risk spectrum. There are many world cruisers for example that decide that safety equipment alone, electronics, life raft, spare parts etc would cost at least 50,000 not including the boat. Others will get by on fraction of this. Where you fall on this spectrum time will tell.
3. The cost difference between a "nice boat" and once designed to cross oceans is significant for most people.
4. The capital risk you are taking using house money to buy a asset that can loose value quickly and can be particularly illiquid (pardon the pun).

You can for example get a Catalina 30 (Or a dozen models similar) for about 15,000, live on it for a couple years at a marina and probably sell it for 15,500.
During your education time you will be able to:

Protect your capital
Do a lot of sailing
Learn some seamanship with a boat that if you scrape up it's not a big deal
Get on a lot of other peoples boats
Get a feel for working from a boat (It's not as easy as it sounds)
Lean how boat expenses add up for your situation
Form your own opinions.

There is a limited amount you can learn while looking at boats that are for sale. 
You learn a lot more and different stuff by hanging out with dozens of people on their boat, especially people who have owned several boats, that are not for sale.
Those invitations are easy to come by if you have a boat, any boat, at the dock, not so easy if you are boatless.


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## ryanct (Apr 22, 2010)

davidpm said:


> 1. Your definition of comfortable and your crews definition of comfortable.
> 2. Your personal tolerance for risk and how you will end up on the risk spectrum. There are many world cruisers for example that decide that safety equipment alone, electronics, life raft, spare parts etc would cost at least 50,000 not including the boat. Others will get by on fraction of this. Where you fall on this spectrum time will tell.
> 3. The cost difference between a "nice boat" and once designed to cross oceans is significant for most people.
> 4. The capital risk you are taking using house money to buy a asset that can loose value quickly and can be particularly illiquid (pardon the pun).


Davidpm,

I agree with you, I don't necessarily have to have a world cruiser right now. As I am quite new to the sailing community, I thought it best to lay my inexperience and ignorance right on the table.

Now that I've done more reading it would probably make a lot more sense to focus on getting something that is capable of doing some serious coastal cruising in areas I'm likely to actually get to in the next few years. If I find myself wanting to cruise out to Hawaii and actually feel comfortable and confident undertaking such a trip, then can either make the decision to refit my boat or to trade up for something more up to the task.

Regarding your comment on the relative risk of a boat over a house, I'm not sure a house has the advantage, and many millions of americans and canadians would agree with me there. If I own my boat outright, and it loses 10% of its value, I lose 10% when I sell it. But if my house loses 10% and I have a big mortgage, there goes half my equity. Not to mention the transaction costs. And the only way I could live in a house mortgage-free for the amount of money I have, I'd have to live in the middle of nowhere, and my house wouldn't even be able to move!

You might say that a boat can sink and a house can't, but there are a lot of things (other than being in a negative equity situation because of market swings) that can go wrong with a house, like natural disasters, water damage, systems failures, fires, etc. And your next response to this might include something about those things being covered by insurance, but as we all know insurance doesn't actually save you any money overall, it simply eases us through unexpected cash flow shortfalls.

I definitely welcome any suggestions on how best to go about preserving the value of my "investment", both in the purchasing stage and once I own and maintain it.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

ryanct said:


> Davidpm,
> 
> I agree with you, I don't necessarily have to have a world cruiser right now. As I am quite new to the sailing community, I thought it best to lay my inexperience and ignorance right on the table.
> Regarding your comment on the relative risk of a boat over a house, I'm not sure a house has the advantage, and many millions of americans and canadians would agree with me there.


You are certainly doing the right thing by asking a lot of questions and doing some homework. I'll let the house boat risk thing go, you have made your decision and I applaud you. This is a sailing forum not an investment forum after all.

As you already know you are starting from ground zero and need to define yourself. Once way to do that is to read about people who have sucessuflly done a lot of crusing and in your own mind compare their situation to your own and make some guesses. A lot of guys have written books and they are fun to read.
I liked _Bumfuzzle_ and especially _Occupation Circumnavigator_ that included actual costs. 
You can also put "site:www.sailnet.com live-aboard" and other search terms to search sailnet as this subject comes up every few weeks.


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## ryanct (Apr 22, 2010)

davidpm said:


> You are certainly doing the right thing by asking a lot of questions and doing some homework. I'll let the house boat risk thing go, you have made your decision and I applaud you. This is a sailing forum not an investment forum after all.


Thanks for the reading suggestions, I will check them out.

Do you have any recommendations as far as boat models or features that I should be looking for? I'm sure there are some things that are way better to have already on a boat and some that are easier to upgrade.

Also I'm curious about what boat models are considered by the general community to be "sought-after" given my price range and cruising goals, and my desire not to suffer too much depreciation or difficulty selling a boat that only appeals to a small niche.


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## Adax (Apr 24, 2010)

Ryan,good luck with your endeavour. I think it is a great project.
Kumgang, hope you find your boat soon


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

*Slip*

I think you mentioned your in Victoria. I would look for an available slip and what the costs are now before you even have a boat. Also I would look at smaller sloops as well as the bigger boats. Your girlfreind has her own place so I assume you can shower there when needed. So you could have smaller (26-30 ) boat with simpler systems for a couple of years till you have more keelboat experience and have a better idea what your desires are. Find out what are the popular and well regarded brands of boats in your area and concentrate on them.


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## SuenosAzules (Apr 11, 2010)

*Selling everything to sail away...*

Okay I agree with other postings here about getting as much education as you can before you embark on the big journey, and I am all about safety first. I do not pretend to be an expert on everything nautical. I do however speak on these forums from my own sailing experience. I too once sold everything and bought a catamaran to live aboard. I think it is very important to make sure you get a vessel that is safe, low maintenance, built well, and roughly 30-25 feet for your first good vessel. I bought a 33'6" Gemini 105 MC and lived abord it for many years until I stepped up to a larger catamaran. It was a great vessel to live on, especially for 1-2 people. Low draft, easy to maintain, great sailing. Do your homework, read the forums once you decide on a vessel, and make sure financially you are not getting over your head to keep the vessel maintained for your needs. In my own experience, I got rid of the inflatable dinghy and bought a $500.00 10 foot plastic Pelican brand dinghy with a small 6hp yamaha outboard. I never had to inflate it once! Look over Ebay and Craigslist for deals. I saved thousands buying equipment over the years looking in those places for new or almost new gear for a third of the price.


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## ryanct (Apr 22, 2010)

SuenosAzules said:


> Okay I agree with other postings here about getting as much education as you can before you embark on the big journey, and I am all about safety first. I do not pretend to be an expert on everything nautical. I do however speak on these forums from my own sailing experience. I too once sold everything and bought a catamaran to live aboard.


Hey SuenosAzules (blue dreams?), it's nice to hear from someone who has experience doing what I am. And also, there don't seem to be a lot of catamaran proponents in this forum, what can you tell me about living in one? I have never been aboard a cat (other than my dad's hobie), but have always thought that the interior spaces would be small, with less headroom.


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## ryanct (Apr 22, 2010)

I might have a look at this Beneteau on my way back through Vancouver next week:
1985 Beneteau Idylle 11.5 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Any comments? A couple areas of concern are the access to the engine, and the oil pads under it. They look clean, but wouldn't be surprised if they were changed for the photo and would also be for a showing.


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## utchuckd (Apr 4, 2010)

From what I've gleaned so far a catamaran of comparable length will have more room than a monohull. A trimaran may have less room than comparable length mono.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

I would be looking for something like this And in this price range or less, if I were in your shoes... The Cherubini Hunters are fine tough boats and will do more they you are capable of doing for the next few years...also a good value today and for the most part already 100 % depreciated.. I bet you could get this particular boat for 25K cash or less right now.

And its close to home!...Already you have saved 10K over a california or further south boat.

1980 Hunter Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## ryanct (Apr 22, 2010)

Stillraining said:


> I would be looking for something like this And in this price range or less, if I were in your shoes... The Cherubini Hunters are fine tough boats and will do more they you are capable of doing for the next few years...also a good value today and for the most part already 100 % depreciated.. I bet you could get this particular boat for 25K cash or less right now.


Thanks for the link, I hadn't started setting my price range that low yet. It's funny, there are as many people saying I should spend more as there are those who thing I should spend less. But most likely my earlier comments about offshore sailing influenced the "spend more" suggestions.

I've heard some good things about the Cherubini Hunters. This one definitely photographs well anyway. Looks like I should plan on making a trip to Washington sometime soon.

I like the idea of a boat that's already done most of its depreciating already.


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## kumgang (Apr 11, 2010)

Adax said:


> Ryan,good luck with your endeavour. I think it is a great project.
> Kumgang, hope you find your boat soon


We will babe!


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

ryanct said:


> Thanks for the link, I hadn't started setting my price range that low yet. It's funny, there are as many people saying I should spend more as there are those who thing I should spend less. But most likely my earlier comments about offshore sailing influenced the "spend more" suggestions.


Ryan, your are asking great questions and coming back to the thread regularly all reason you are getting great advice.

A lot of it has to do with how lucky and how fussy you are. Also how much it will hurt if you blow 50 to 100g with little return.

Through dumb luck the first boat you find may cover you for decades.
You may be so easy going and flexible that any boat that floats will make you happy.

The advice you are getting is just folks giving you some ideas to limit your risk. Sailing is supposed to be fun. You are trying to make a dream happen.
With little knowledge and less experience the safest, not necessary best for you, is to spend less, and buy something easily resell-able.

The facts are it is really easy to spend a lot of money on the wrong boat and take a significant loss when you have to liquidate.

Keep in mind the difference between a coastal boat and a blue water boat. You can buy a brand new Catalina 309 for 100,000 fit it out with sails and electronics etc and have a sail away package for 120g.

A brand new blue water brand can be easily three times that.

The coastal boat will have more space and be easier to live on at the dock and cost one third.

Keep in mind the difference between a 30' boat and a 36' boat. The difference is huge maybe almost double in some cases. That includes loads and costs.

Again you focus should be on how you can get an education not on how much to spend for the boat.
Any boat you can see yourself living on for while that gets a good survey and you have reason to believe can be sold quickly for what you paid for it when your dream boat comes along will be fine.

Frankly I don't think the boat select matters much at this point as the chances of it being THE boat are vanishingly small.

But who knows you might get lucky.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

ryan, as far as the budget for your boat, that is entirely up to you, spend as much as you want. As you have noted, there seem to be two schools of thought- max budget and bottom feeders. 
i am firmly in the bottom feeders camp. I really, really, like buying durable goods at the bottom of their depreciation curve. You can buy a perfectly acceptable 30-35 ft mid-70s production boat for under $20K. The less you spend on the boat, the more you have to spend on the cruise, the more you have to spend on the cruise, the longer you can go without having to work for the man, you dig?

And quite frankly, chicks don't care how new or old the boat is as long as it is comfy and doesn't smell bad. And chicks are important. And chicks who dig boats are important. And chicks who dig YOUR boat are paramount. Keep the woman happy and the cruise is much better.

Before you buy a boat, buy Don Casey's "this Old Boat." It will give you a little different perspective, and along with some solid advice on what to look for and why to look for it when you go boat shopping, it is 700 pages of pure sailboat DIY porn.
Casey makes a good point- your first boat is never your "forever" boat, and there is no point in buying more boat than you need. You may think you need a bluewater cruiser, because you have dreams of casting off and heading for hawaii... but then again, you can spend YEARS cruising the QC Islands and never see everything, and you sure don't need an overbuilt world beater to do it. So, yo can spend $50-$80 k on a bluewater cruiser that you discover is way beyond spec for your needs, and then live with all of that money down the drain, or buy something like a Cherubini Hunter and get some sea time under your belt, and then decide to step up to that circumnavigator. If and when you do, that cheap "first" boat will likely see little or no depreciation, and be easy to sell.

And don't even get me started on how much lower your angst level will be when you bounce off the dock on a cheap boat, rather than one you have sunk the bulk of your savings into.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

bljones said:


> ryan, as far as the budget for your boat, that is entirely up to you, spend as much as you want. As you have noted, there seem to be two schools of thought- max budget and bottom feeders.
> i am firmly in the bottom feeders camp. I really, really, like buying durable goods at the bottom of their depreciation curve. You can buy a perfectly acceptable 30-35 ft mid-70s production boat for under $20K. The less you spend on the boat, the more you have to spend on the cruise, the more you have to spend on the cruise, the longer you can go without having to work for the man, you dig?


Too few people understand this simple wisdom.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> And don't even get me started on how much lower your angst level will be when you bounce off the dock on a cheap boat, rather than one you have sunk the bulk of your savings into.


This is gold.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

You typed you could leave in a couple of years. To me that means 2 just a several means 3. 2 years is not a lot of time to know your boat intimately, so buying small now, and bigger later will leave you lacking much knowledge about the boats systems, and how to sail her properly. This is why I suggest getting the boat you plan to leave on now.

If, and IF can be alarge word for 2 letters. If you plan on leaving in more than several years. Then to buy small, and learn how to keep her off the dock can give you valuable knowledge, and still at some point. Leave you with a couiple of years to buy larger, and get to know the boat you will leave on.

Sometimes huge deals come along. I believe someone here bought a Columbia 36 for $900.00. If something like this crosses your path, or even if it is $9k. You can afford to buy a Cal20, or something similiar. Learn to sail her, and sell her for what you paid. All the time learning the big boat by getting her in topnotch condition for leaving. Keep an open mind for what ever comes along. You sound like you have already given good thought to your plan, and that makinf a decision to what kind of boat is your next challenge. You really have a ton of options before you, and especially in this economy......*i2f*


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## Maxboatspeed (Apr 11, 2010)

*Bljones rocks*

Yep,
Get in touch w/ that guy (Bljones). Read Casey, Calder, etc. You're on your way and the old guys love it. As you've discovered, there's lots to know. The cruising and live aboard guys love to share what they know.
Keep doing what you're doing. Reach out to guys that have been down your path.
I have a 40', offshore boat that I lived on while refurbishing. I'd be happy to discuss anything you have questions about.
I only gonna say: living semi comfortably on a sailboat (alone or w/ others,) in Van. And cruising long distance are very different ideas. Ok 2 things. What you need to cruise long distance/offshore is very highly debatable. What's important is that you know that you and your are up to capable.

Max


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## SuenosAzules (Apr 11, 2010)

*Living Aboard...*



ryanct said:


> Hey SuenosAzules (blue dreams?), it's nice to hear from someone who has experience doing what I am. And also, there don't seem to be a lot of catamaran proponents in this forum, what can you tell me about living in one? I have never been aboard a cat (other than my dad's hobie), but have always thought that the interior spaces would be small, with less headroom.


I can tell you that living on a Gemini Catamaran was great. Lots of headroom no matter where you were (about 6 feet) and I never felt cramped. The cats are more sturdy on two hulls versus one, and very shallow draft (18 inches with the centerboards up). You can literally beach the vessel if you need to and then push it back in when the tide comes back up. The Gemini's are also glassed from a single mold. So there is nothing bolted on. They are solid in their construction. To really know just go aboard one for sale. Google "Gemini 105 MC" and include your area (state and city) and you should find some listings. I prefer cats to monohulls for their shallow draft, safer passage, and overall buoyancy.


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## mk11blue (Apr 8, 2010)

*enjoy!*

best wishes and enjoy your journey!


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## Maxboatspeed (Apr 11, 2010)

Ryan,
here's some more 'cause I like your attitude. 

Sorbent pads under an engine is a normal and wise thing. Diesels w/ hrs will have some oil/fuel leaks/drips. The pads are there to keep oil from the rest of the bilge. Yes, a broker/seller will change pads and wipe the area before showing the boat. Sounds like you know how to check out an engine before your purchase?

Gemini Cats sure look comfy. I'm thinking they are more than you can spend?
Here's a thing about cats (especially cruising cats) and open ocean sailing. Unlike true ocean voyaging keel boats, they will "turtle" if knocked down, pitch poled, or rolled by a wave - and they won't come back. You understand from dads Hobie? I guess some think they are safer because they don't heal much (usually), or that the deck and companion way are further from the water? I don't know. These boats would be perfectly safe inland and in some ocean areas where/when weather and seas are known to be mild. In my opinion (others may disagree) they are not safe for long range open ocean voyages (Van-Mex).

Cats of this size do have space and comfort for living aboard.

Seattle does have lots of boats for sale. Not exactly sure how the buck compares to the looney lately? You know about Yachtworld? One last thought, bail from Van and buy a boat in some sunny tropical place?

Ok- enough outta me, eh? Good luck!
Max


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Maxboatspeed said:


> Ryan,
> here's some more 'cause I like your attitude.
> 
> Sorbent pads under an engine is a normal and wise thing. Diesels w/ hrs will have some oil/fuel leaks/drips. The pads are there to keep oil from the rest of the bilge. Yes, a broker/seller will change pads and wipe the area before showing the boat. Sounds like you know how to check out an engine before your purchase?
> ...


This is complete crap. The Polynesians were cruising the whole Pacific way before Europeans even thought about crossing an ocean. Some sailors are good enought to sail a 5ft. boat across the Atlantic. It's the sailor, and not so much the boat at times. A keel boat does not make for a *TRUE OCEAN VOYAGINE VESSEL*
Polynesian Voyaging Society

Not to say a catamaran, or tri is not a compromise. Just as a mono is a compromise. All vessels are a compromise. There are some monos that will not go to windward. Just as there are some multis that won't. Did you watch America's Cup?

Around the world on SLAPDASH

Read here what a Gemini can do, and it's not even considered an ocean going catamaran. This couple has been out in the snot, and still they continue to sail on in bliss, and they have already sailed half way around the world!

I won't knock a mono, because they are fine vessels on the most part. They also allow smaller budgets to get into a good ocean going vessel. When someone types misinformation like what is posted above. It just goes to show how little they know about a ocean going cruising cat. Do you ever wonder why nearly every ocean sailing record is owned by a multi? ......*i2f*


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

*I'd point out that you have no clue what you're talking about.* While multihulls have a position of ultimate stability inverted... so do monohulls-sitting on the bottom of the ocean upright. I know which I'd rather be on...

I'd also point out that multihulls are generally unsinkable due to their construction, materials, design, etc. This is far different from a monohull, where if the cabin floods, it will usually sink. Granted, there are monohulls that are designed to be positively buoyant when flooded, like the Etap and some of the Sadlers... however, the cabins and interiors of these boats suffer from the modifications needed to make them so.

*Making comparisons using a Hobie beach cat to a 30'+ cruising catamaran is idiotic, and would be like comparing a moth foiler to that of a Caliber 38 LRC-ridiculous. * Beach cats are nothing like their larger cruising cousins. Beach cats are extremely overpowered, generally fairly narrow and designed for speed alone...

*BTW, it's been PROVEN that multihulls are safer.* It is far more difficult to fall off a boat that heels a maximum of 10˚ and is 18' wide than it is to fall off a boat that normally is heeled 15-20˚ and is only 9' wide. These numbers are based on a boat that is 28' LOA, as is mine, and scale upwards accordingly.

I'd also point out that most of the catamarans in the USA are foreign built-Fontaine Pajot, Seawind, Lagoon, Leopard, Iroquois, Catalac, etc... and every one of them came over to the US on their own....the Iroquois and Catalacs did so before anything like Dockwise Yacht transport was even conceivable, and have been sailing the oceans of the world for over 30 years. The older Pivers, Wharrams, Jim Brown Searunners, and Cross designs have been cruising for decades, and many were home-built without the aid of CAD, modern materials or engineering, yet are still quite seaworthy.

You might want to leave discussing the merits of multihulls to those who actually know something about them.  



Maxboatspeed said:


> Here's a thing about cats (especially cruising cats) and open ocean sailing. Unlike true ocean voyaging keel boats, they will "turtle" if knocked down, pitch poled, or rolled by a wave - and they won't come back. You understand from dads Hobie? I guess some think they are safer because they don't heal much (usually), or that the deck and companion way are further from the water? I don't know. These boats would be perfectly safe inland and in some ocean areas where/when weather and seas are known to be mild. In my opinion (others may disagree) they are not safe for long range open ocean voyages (Van-Mex).
> 
> Cats of this size do have space and comfort for living aboard.


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## Maxboatspeed (Apr 11, 2010)

*Sorry to piss you off - Frolic*

I guess I made frolic mad. Appologies. I did say there are varied opinions. I did not intend to imply all keel boats are true ocean capable vessels. What I meant was a keelboat that is designed to withstand ocean conditions. I did not say that cats can't handle open ocean.
The boats that set have set speed records around the world are much larger and very different than the boats we are talking about. I could say more about the design, and known risk, of these boats. Also, an escape hatch in the bottom ( the top after turtled) is required on offshore racing cats. Guess why. 
Americas Cup? Almost not worth commenting on...Those boats are designed for a very limited wind range on near coastal waters. Bringing Americas Cup boats into this topic is rediculous.
Yep, the the guys that navigated the Pacific in outrigger boats were badass, fearless, amazing navigators. All that explored and sailed the world in the "old days" were. They all knew that they would very likely die on the ocean. None of this has to do with modern offshore sailing. 
Fact: once a cat goes beyond the point of positive (upright) stabilility, she will turtle and be stable upside down. I'm thinking there's no argument?
Fact: there is a huge difference between an open ocean, lightweight, low CG, large B/L ratio, professionally sailed, highspeed, racing cat and cruising boats on topic.
Here's a fact frolic will argue. It's well known, and published, that those with knowledge of the ocean and long range cruising, choose not to sail cats - due to the fact that they will not rerite after being flipped.

Frolic, you may have heard of stability curves? I see you are a senior member w/ 14k posts. I'm new to it. I also see there are a few guys that like to be mean and nasty. I'm gonna try to not be that guy. Oh ya, Frolic, ever sailed from Van to Mex? Ever seen 30' breakers? Please don't call my post crap anymore. Thank you 
Max


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Maxboatspeed said:


> Americas Cup? Almost not worth commenting on...Those boats are designed for a very limited wind range on near coastal waters. Bringing Americas Cup boats into this topic is rediculous.


I gotta say +1 on this. Those AC guys refused to race in a sea state of more than 1 meter. That sham made multis look seriously wimpy.


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## Maxboatspeed (Apr 11, 2010)

*My bad*

Now sailingdog is pickin on me too. I give. Fact is, I know way more about this stuff than you guys. Tried to save that one. Degree in NA. 1600 ton masters license. Professional mariner. Own and sail a 40' boat, singlehanded, many thousands of miles. Learned to sail and race 35 yrs ago (at 11). Also, I know the general consensus of offshore cruisers. I'm not talkin about guys that spend all their time blogging and sail a 28' boat in the keys on the weekend. I'm telling a true opinion of many long range cruisers. At least admit this idea is a valid argument. If you don't, it's clear you're just in this to make trouble and argue. 
20k posts? Are you really that smart with nothin else going. (sorry. You started it)
Max


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

No worries Max. Chin up. That's just Dog's inimitable style.

Now that you've listed your quals, I'm sure he'll defer to the fact that you do actually "have a clue" and apologize profusely.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

I am no expert with a degree, but I have some miles. Actually 4k miles single-handed S.F. CA. to Cabo, and back with 15 years sailing any weather S.F. Bay can throw at you including above 50 knots. I rounded Point Conception alone in a 30ftr with 50+ knots, and 20+ seas in the middle of the night alone. One of the prettiest sails I ever had.

Have sailed the cat From St. Maarten to Florida, and through the Bahamas for 4 years with everything under 40 knots in any direction. On a reach the goal was to keep her under 15 knots while my coffee cup sat on the bridgedeck roof. On this boat I have sailed 10k miles with my 4'9" wife at 100lbs. We have never had a fleeting moment of anxiety for the boat to flip.

Angry?, not at all. The O.P. is loooking for information & not disinformation. Multis are a different beast with different pros & cons.......*i2f*


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## Polypterus (Dec 16, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> I gotta say +1 on this. Those AC guys refused to race in a sea state of more than 1 meter. That sham made multis look seriously wimpy.


On the other hand they were going 3X wind speed which is pretty mind blowing. It seems like the whole thing comes down to what you are more afraid of: capsizing or sinking 

Edit: Or you could buy an ETAP


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Just curious as to how many of those offshore cruisers that your'e talking about have any real experience with multihulls? How much experience do you have with multihulls for that matter?? Most of the people I've spoken with who denigrate multihulls have little to no experience with them.

Point of fact is that you said:



> Here's a thing about cats (especially cruising cats) and open ocean sailing. Unlike true ocean voyaging keel boats, they will "turtle" if knocked down, pitch poled, or rolled by a wave - and they won't come back. You understand from dads Hobie? I guess some think they are safer because they don't heal much (usually), or that the deck and companion way are further from the water? I don't know. These boats would be perfectly safe inland and in some ocean areas where/when weather and seas are known to be mild. In my opinion (others may disagree) they are not safe for long range open ocean voyages (Van-Mex).
> 
> Cats of this size do have space and comfort for living aboard.


As far as I can tell, you're comparing lessons learned on a Hobie beach cat to what happens on a cruising size multihull..... which is unrealistic at best.

When you make a valid point about cruising multihulls, I'm more than happy to admit it...but so far, all you've done is spout the old monohull fear mongering lines...

_Yes, all multihulls have a relatively low angle of vanishing stability and will TURN TURTLE once they are knocked down past a certain point._ There's no argument there. However, the initial stability of a cruising sized catamaran is very high, especially compared to a comparable LOA monohull, so the chances of the boat getting capsized are much smaller. In fact, the majority of almost all cruising-sized multihull capsizes involve operator error.

Likewise, you don't address the issues that MONOHULLS SINK, or they TURN TURTLE when their keels fall off.... If you think that doesn't happen, go google "Cynthia Woods" or "Moquini" for boats that lost their keels, or "Concordia" for a very large monohull that sank...

The facts are against your arguments.


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## remetau (Jan 27, 2009)

I don't want to get involved in an argument about mono vs. cat.

For the orginal poster, if you do consider getting a cat, and you plan to marina that boat, then extect to pay a lot more for dockage due to the extra space you will need.


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## Polypterus (Dec 16, 2009)

remetau said:


> I don't want to get involved in an argument about mono vs. cat.
> 
> For the orginal poster, if you do consider getting a cat, and you plan to marina that boat, then extect to pay a lot more for dockage due to the extra space you will need.


What about the Corsair and that ilk type tris? Years ago I wanted a corsair and I still think they are cool boats. Granted they aren't as roomy.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Hello Max! Where is your NA from? I'm Webb '82.

Unfortunately there are a lot of cut and paste sailors on Internet boards. Just discount them and move on. On the other hand there are some really outstanding experienced folks around also, many with more empirical than academic backgrounds. In my experience they are the quieter ones.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

remetau said:


> I don't want to get involved in an argument about mono vs. cat.
> 
> For the orginal poster, if you do consider getting a cat, and you plan to marina that boat, then extect to pay a lot more for dockage due to the extra space you will need.


From St. Maarten to Florida I have never paid more in 8 years. Not to say some marinas don't charge more, but I have never experienced it. I just returned from S.F Bay area looking for a slip for my cat. I stopped in several marinas, and found the price equal to a mono as in pay per foot. There are T-ends, and slips in shallow water that never gets used unless your draft is shallow. Once again it's all a compromise. Oh, and I am 46ft X 23ft 3"......*i2f*


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One of the advantages of the Gemini catamaran that was mentioned previously is that it is a fairly narrow catamaran and can often fit in a standard 40' slip. Many of the owners of the Geminis do just that and few, if any, have been charged extra because they're a catamaran. If it was a bigger boat with a wider beam proportionally, then that might be the case, but there are quite a few smaller, narrower beam cats that can fit in a slip.



remetau said:


> I don't want to get involved in an argument about mono vs. cat.
> 
> For the orginal poster, if you do consider getting a cat, and you plan to marina that boat, then extect to pay a lot more for dockage due to the extra space you will need.


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## utchuckd (Apr 4, 2010)

I don't own a boat, or have any miles, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last nite.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Polypterus said:


> What about the Corsair and that ilk type tris? Years ago I wanted a corsair and I still think they are cool boats. Granted they aren't as roomy.


Neat idea, fabulous performers with very spartan/limited interiors.

Friends formerly owned an F25C - remarkable little speedster that they raced some and cruised mostly doublehanded. While the ride was a rush, if not dry, as cruisers they tended to spend as much time trying to slow the thing down to avoid an incident as they did going for max speed. This included a trip across the Gulf stream to the Bahamas and back.

Interestingly, when it came time to chose a boat for winter liveaboard/Caribbean island hopping, they went with a monohull. (not an old shoe, mind you!)


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

utchuckd said:


> I don't own a boat, or have any miles, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last nite.


You are hereby qualified to throw in your opinion on any topic in this forum.


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## Maxboatspeed (Apr 11, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> Hello Max! Where is your NA from? I'm Webb '82.
> 
> Unfortunately there are a lot of cut and paste sailors on Internet boards. Just discount them and move on. On the other hand there are some really outstanding experienced folks around also, many with more empirical than academic backgrounds. In my experience they are the quieter ones.


Auspicious,
YDI/MMA 89. AAS of Small Craft NA. Designing sailboats was my thought. Making a living designing sailboats is tough (as you know). I ended up operating commercial vessels. Are you making $ designing?
It seems I must have phrased my statements about cats badly? My intention was to make the new guy aware of a long standing concern with sailing cats offshore. I mentioned that there are varied opinions. I respect the knowledge and opinions of those with offshore cat experience. I have not cruised cats offshore. 
I only mentioned "credentials" after being told that I don't have a 
clue and the post was crap and "disinformation."
I like this sight and appreciate it's value for sharing information, knowledge, and OPINION. I don't like the negative, accusatory, argumentative, "You're an idiot" posts I see from the guys that post here ALL THE TIME.
Max


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

WELL MAX,

You have come on as the ultimate authority on multis with zero experience. Claiming what may, or may not be some truths as gospel. With zero zip of the negativity a mono holds. As typed before all boats are a compromise. A claim that a mono is a TRUE CRUISING vessel, and not a multi. That they belong on inland waterways. When you tell a person their love is ugly, and unappealling. You should expect a poke in the eye. Seems you can dish it out, but not take it.

Don't let this interfere with your being here. You do need to remember it was you that started the negativity with your post against multis.Yes, it was I that typed disinformation, but at least I was telling the truth. What you claimed was false.......*i2f*


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Max-

While I respect your credentials, I'd point out that you are talking about multihulls and as far as I can tell, you have NO PERSONAL EXPERIENCE on them. I've been sailing on multihulls since I was 12, and first helped build one when I was 14.

Yes, the risk of capsize and the boat turning turtle exists... but is that really any more a danger than the risk of a monohull getting knocked down and downflooding or losing its keel and turning turtle? A properly designed and properly handled cruising sized multihull is in very little danger of capsizing or turning turtle-even in storm conditions.

What you said was:



> Here's a thing about cats (especially cruising cats) and open ocean sailing. Unlike true ocean voyaging keel boats, they will "turtle" if knocked down, pitch poled, or rolled by a wave - and they won't come back. You understand from dads Hobie?


You're basically saying that a cruising cat will flip as easily as a Hobie Cat... which is clearly not the case. And you don't mention anything about the risks a monohull has-like downflooding and sinking or losing the keel and turning turtle-which makes your statement even more biased.

At least, when I talk about boats, I mention the pros and cons of BOTH sides of the *multihull vs. monohull debate* and let the person decide which is better themselves.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

This thread is getting badly hijacked. SD, you and maxboat may like to start your own thread, as your discussion has no bearing on the topic at hand. Oh, and SD, please read the post in your sig.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Heh-heh.

So Ryan - what are you thinking at this point?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Actually, the discussion about multihulls is relevant to the poster's question of what boats would be suitable for his usage. The question of whether a Gemini catamaran would be a suitable boat for him was raised. The OP stated:



ryanct said:


> My rough plan is to buy a sailboat that is large enough to be comfortable for 1-2 people to live in, that I can take down the coast and eventually cross oceans with.
> 
> My sailing experience is limited to lasers and hobie cats on a lake, so I plan to do some crew training and day skipper training, and possibly some 'own-boat tuition' before taking the new boat out.
> 
> ...


Whether this can be done in a monohull or multihull is relevant, especially given the advantages a multihull may have during the initial period when he is primarily living aboard. Catamarans are far roomier and more spacious than monohulls and far more comfortable to liveaboard due to their very high stability.

It would be impossible for the OP to make a decision if all he was getting was the highly biased viewpoints of the monohull side of things. He also asked for the mulitihull viewpoint as indicated in this post.



ryanct said:


> Hey SuenosAzules (blue dreams?), it's nice to hear from someone who has experience doing what I am. And also, there don't seem to be a lot of catamaran proponents in this forum, what can you tell me about living in one? I have never been aboard a cat (other than my dad's hobie), but have always thought that the interior spaces would be small, with less headroom.





bljones said:


> This thread is getting badly hijacked. SD, you and maxboat may like to start your own thread, as your discussion has no bearing on the topic at hand. Oh, and SD, please read the post in your sig.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I agree SD, the mutihull viewpoint is relevant- the pissing match is the hijack. just as you and i are continuing to hijack this thread discussing whether the thread was hijacked.


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## californiapilot (Apr 27, 2010)

I have been extremely interested in learning about sailing and living on a boat for the last couple years. Does anyone know if anyone is considering letting anyone live aboard their boat? I'm not sure how that works, and I really don't know anyone to talk to. Completely separate, I also don't know where to go to take a class on sailing. I have my private pilot certificate and I really enjoy that, but I am looking forward to the slower pace of sailing. I thought this was the best place to go for information. Thanks!


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## blackjenner (Feb 5, 2010)

sailingdog said:


> One of the advantages of the Gemini catamaran that was mentioned previously is that it is a fairly narrow catamaran and can often fit in a standard 40' slip. Many of the owners of the Geminis do just that and few, if any, have been charged extra because they're a catamaran. If it was a bigger boat with a wider beam proportionally, then that might be the case, but there are quite a few smaller, narrower beam cats that can fit in a slip.


Yeah, SeaRaven is for sale (I've seen prices under 70K) but, I think she's not in the class you speak of.

Rendezvous Charters-The Sea Raven

I love the idea of living and cruising in a cat but have chosen a mono-hull for this area. Moorage for cats is hard here. Most of them are end-dock. Also, and they are relatively rare in the PNW.


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## blackjenner (Feb 5, 2010)

californiapilot said:


> I have been extremely interested in learning about sailing and living on a boat for the last couple years. Does anyone know if anyone is considering letting anyone live aboard their boat? I'm not sure how that works, and I really don't know anyone to talk to. Completely separate, I also don't know where to go to take a class on sailing. I have my private pilot certificate and I really enjoy that, but I am looking forward to the slower pace of sailing. I thought this was the best place to go for information. Thanks!


I think you should start a separate thread on this. It should generate some good discussion. I bet most if it would be "hell no" but it should be interesting.


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## rjg23 (Apr 1, 2006)

Bit of a newb myself and always interested in others approach to getting away from it all. My criteria and yours seem to be about the same. The boat that I've been attracted to is the Morgan 382 (383).

It's among those listed in the offshore thread:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...fshore-cruising-boat-list-january-2008-a.html

Has good "cruising boat stats":

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pCI5Z-sv16MggGoOP2MEGZA&pli=1

There is one in your "area", in your price range, "looks" to be in good shape:

1978 Morgan 382 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Good luck.


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## ryanct (Apr 22, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Heh-heh.
> 
> So Ryan - what are you thinking at this point?


Smackdaddy,

I've been a bit distracted by this house sale and haven't been keeping up on the thread until today, but now the subjects have been removed and the deal is official, so now I'm mostly waiting for the closing date to come.

I've enjoyed the mono vs. cat debate, and though some may find the negativity distasteful, I find it can be helpful to the process of finding out not only what opinions people hold but also why they hold them. Telling a person they don't know anything, though not my approach, can be a pretty effective way to reveal their biases and their credentials, as we've seen.

I'm definitely not completely turned off of cats by their capsized stability, and I really like the idea of a boat that has a hard time sinking. Obviously everything's a compromise. We've definitely had that hobie upside down a few times, but all can be chalked up to either sailer incompetence or trying to push it too hard to go fast.

One thing I have not seen discussed is what can be done to right a turtled cruising cat?

Around here the dock slips seem to be priced linearly, so hard to say if the extra width would be an issue. It might still end up being cheaper per square foot to get a wider cat compared to a longer monohull even if they charge you a bit more.


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## ryanct (Apr 22, 2010)

rjg23 said:


> Bit of a newb myself and always interested in others approach to getting away from it all. My criteria and yours seem to be about the same. The boat that I've been attracted to is the Morgan 382 (383).
> 
> There is one in your "area", in your price range, "looks" to be in good shape:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the recommendation, that boat's definitely on my list of ones to check out when I make a trip to Washington.


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## ryanct (Apr 22, 2010)

blackjenner said:


> Also, and they are relatively rare in the PNW.


Yes, I've noticed. I've seen a couple come up on craigslist etc, but not much on yachtworld or any of the smaller local brokers sites.

I love the quote in your signature, couldn't agree more.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

ryanct said:


> One thing I have not seen discussed is what can be done to right a turtled cruising cat?


A big-ass crane. Or really big-ass breaking wave (bigger than the one that turtled it in the first place). That's about it.

Glad to hear the sale is moving along. Keep up the hunt.


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## remetau (Jan 27, 2009)

ryanct said:


> Smackdaddy,
> One thing I have not seen discussed is what can be done to right a turtled cruising cat?
> .


Oh no! To take something from another post, once your cat is flipped you are dead!!!!

...Just kidding. It wouldn't be easy. I have a friend in the harbor here in Marathon that was able to flip his trimaran back over after it was turtled by a micro-burst while at a mooring ball. They secured both ends of the boat, folded in the amas, wrapped a long line around the hull and pulled it with 300hp of another boat. The trimaran flipped back up with the unraveling of the line.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Most turtled multihulls can be righted fairly easily using a powerboat and flipping the boat bow over stern. This can often be done without even losing the rig. The larger the boat, the more difficult this becomes.



ryanct said:


> One thing I have not seen discussed is what can be done to right a turtled cruising cat?
> 
> Around here the dock slips seem to be priced linearly, so hard to say if the extra width would be an issue. It might still end up being cheaper per square foot to get a wider cat compared to a longer monohull even if they charge you a bit more.


I've seen a 31' trimaran flipped end-for-end as described above using a 50 HP engine on a small fishing center console. There's no need for 300 HP to right a smaller multihull. Once you get up to the 40' boats, then you'll need some serious horsepower.



> It wouldn't be easy. I have a friend in the harbor here in Marathon that was able to flip his trimaran back over after it was turtled by a micro-burst while at a mooring ball. They secured both ends of the boat, folded in the amas, wrapped a long line around the hull and pulled it with 300hp of another boat. The trimaran flipped back up with the unraveling of the line.


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

ryanct said:


> Yes, I've noticed. I've seen a couple come up on craigslist etc, but not much on yachtworld or any of the smaller local brokers sites.


There's a Catalac 9M for sale in Seattle, Washington. You'll find the listing here


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

Maxboatspeed said:


> Now sailingdog is pickin on me too. I give. Fact is, I know way more about this stuff than you guys. Tried to save that one. Degree in NA. 1600 ton masters license. Professional mariner. Own and sail a 40' boat, singlehanded, many thousands of miles.


Max, if this is true, I'll say that you should know better than to hang this out there like you have. All the info you offer appears to be what was generally understood 25 years ago. It's a whole new world out there in NA these days. Catamarans are not going away, in fact their popularity is growing exponentially.

NTSC data now has decades of data on multis. Cruising catamarans are safer than monohulls ...period. Each year that's rolled by brings us more and more multis which have crossed oceans or circumnavigated. My point is that your arguments are stuck in the 1980's and things have changed.



Maxboatspeed said:


> .....I'm telling a true opinion of many long range cruisers. At least admit this idea is a valid argument. If you don't, it's clear you're just in this to make trouble and argue. ....


Again, which of these notable experts sail a cruising catamaran? If none do, what is their frame of reference? ..... or their basis of knowledge on crossing oceans in a Cat? Are you typing the fact that because your buddies said so..it must be true?

I think you might consider taking a couple of refresher courses on NA which brings you into the 21st century. Who knows, you might even be able to make a living as a NA.


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## utchuckd (Apr 4, 2010)

remetau said:


> I have a friend in the harbor here in Marathon that was able to flip his trimaran back over after it was turtled by a micro-burst while at a mooring ball.


How common is having a boat, mono or multi, capsized while moored or at anchor?

I learn something new every day here.


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## Maxboatspeed (Apr 11, 2010)

*Hmmmm*

I guess you found the troublemaker. I kinda thought this was over.
Originally, I told a newbie looking to get a boat that he planned to live on, then sail Offshore ( E. Pacific - longrange) about the concept. I know it's an old argument. I was thinking it's only fair for the guy to be aware of the concept. You had heard of the debate before get your cat?
I regret saying whatever it was about multies being unsafe. I was kinda stirring the pot in the first message
I got slammed by a couple guys. Turns out they're cool, accomplished cat guys, that I respect. All the other crap about who's smarter came up because the guys called me bad names and said I was a moron. Somewhere in there a guy asked about my experience.
I made up with those two with PM.

You did a pretty good job of slamming me too. At first I was gonna whine cause you quoted me in a confusing context. Next thought was, the guy did a bangup job of tearing me up.

Peace, fair winds,
max


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## TropicCat (Oct 14, 2008)

Peace


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