# would like to see



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Ok...why is it that this magazine caters to men? I would like to see scantily clad men on the cover and throughout the book....


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

What age....20,30,40,50,60,70???????????
I am sure we can post some up if you aren't too picky..  ...i2f


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

How about......20, 30 40 year olds in awsome shape


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Be careful what you wish for... ROUND is a shape... 


JacquelineHaden said:


> How about......20, 30 40 year olds in awsome shape


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

OOK....he has a firm but, six pack abs, muscles, handsome, ya know..the model type


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## AKscooter (Jan 18, 2009)

He would be GAY!!!


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

JacquelineHaden said:


> Ok...why is it that this magazine caters to men? I would like to see scantily clad men on the cover and throughout the book....


Sorry, but that's a really silly question. How much money do you suppose men spend on boats as compared with women? How many men read sailing mags compared to women? Who do you suppose most people would rather look at? a hot female or a hot male? I would wager that even most women find the female form more attractive to look at than the male.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

a lot of us have six pak abs under there,,,, somewhere.


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

> Sorry, but that's a really silly question. How much money do you suppose men spend on boats as compared with women?


I personally know of quite a few women who spend tons of their own money on boats. In addition, how many of these men you speak of spend money but are HEAVILY influenced by women- girlfriends, wives, etc?

Personally, I have no desire to see a hunky man on the lats and atts magazine or any other sailing/cruising magazine. I expect a cruising magazine to be about- well, cruising. I almost didn't pick up the latest issue because the cover turned me off. I did wonder who the cover girls doctor was, cause he does nice work.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Mimsy said:


> I almost didn't pick up the latest issue because the cover turned me off. I did wonder who the cover girls doctor was, cause he does nice work.


Damn, I missed that one. 

Hey, don't get me wrong. I don't deny that there are lots of women into sailing or that many men that are into sailing are answering to their women. Still, just going by the numbers that I see, men are the target audience. Sorry. 
Congratulations on the boat btw.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

I saw Bob field this question in an old issue of L&A. He just said that as soon as he sees a good looking guy, he'll put him on the cover. I wouldn't hold my breath.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

One could bring up the cliche about not judging a book by it's cover ......


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## nk235 (Apr 8, 2007)

Not even sailing magazines but even when you walk into any magazine store 90% of the magazines have scantily clad women on the cover and most of them are magazine made for females! So lay off Latts & Atts! Arghhh


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Cosmo - Home of the Cleavage cover


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Knotty HAS Six Pack Abs...just ask the Wench who forwarded this photo!!


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

What da .. ?? 

Does anybody go around complaining that "Cosmo" has too much stuff about women's clothing in it, or that "Bride" doesn't have enough men's marriage advice in it, or that Oprah doesn't have enough adventure and sports stories ? Lats & Atts caters to men ?? GREAT!!!!!!!! We have a whole magazine to ourselves!!!!   

Male is a GENDER, completely separate from female, that's why we use different words for them, hmm ... or at least why we put the "fe" on the beginning of one of them.


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

Sorry, I thought Latts and Atts was for Cruisers, not cruising men. I like buying a cruising or sailing magazine that focuses on just that. I DO like Latts and Atts more light hearted approach to the material which is why I purchase it.

Cosmo is a womens magazine. I think its lame, so I don't buy it but it is specifically geared for women. I have no problem with Playboy, that's a magazine specifically geared for men. On Playboy, I expect to sees cantily clad women because it is in context.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

And bikini clad women aren't in context when cruising in tropical locales???



Mimsy said:


> Sorry, I thought Latts and Atts was for Cruisers, not cruising men. I like buying a cruising or sailing magazine that focuses on just that. I DO like Latts and Atts more light hearted approach to the material which is why I purchase it.
> 
> Cosmo is a womens magazine. I think its lame, so I don't buy it but it is specifically geared for women. I have no problem with Playboy, that's a magazine specifically geared for men. On Playboy, I expect to sees cantily clad women because it is in context.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Go to Latitude 38. Those guys print eye candy for women once in a while. I know of one specifically that was Feb. of 95. It was a Christmas card titled DREAMING OF A WHITE CHRISTMAS......LMAO..i2f


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

My issue has more to do with the fact that the cover in question shows a bikini clad woman doing...nothing. Perching on the bowsprit, doing...nothing. A bikini clad woman at the the helm, or hoisting a sail or fishing or anything would be completely different than a passive glamour shot which only makes a strong argument in favor of my opinion that sailing can at times be a bit of a "boys club".

To each his own I suppose. Maybe I need to start a sailing magazine for women- Total Bad Ass Chick Sailors. Tania Aebi could be our cover girl, no bikini necessary.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Tania might want a bikini.... posing for a magazine cover au natural would be a bit risque even for a woman's sailing magazine.   



Mimsy said:


> My issue has more to do with the fact that the cover in question shows a bikini clad woman doing...nothing. Perching on the bowsprit, doing...nothing. A bikini clad woman at the the helm, or hoisting a sail or fishing or anything would be completely different than a passive glamour shot which only makes a strong argument in favor of my opinion that sailing can at times be a bit of a "boys club".
> 
> To each his own I suppose. Maybe I need to start a sailing magazine for women- Total Bad Ass Chick Sailors. Tania Aebi could be our cover girl, no bikini necessary.


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

The least they could do is to pick some *good looking *chicks for the cover...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Mimsy said:


> Total Bad Ass Chick Sailors.


Now you're on to something.


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

Bad Ass Chick Sailor??


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## MMR (Oct 5, 2007)

*Hang on a min...*



Mimsy said:


> My issue has more to do with the fact that the cover in question shows a bikini clad woman doing...nothing. Perching on the bowsprit, doing...nothing...


She may not be doing "nothing"...she may be scanning for a channel, keeping a lookout for the next course turn, enjoying a well earned rest after...

-lugging provisions down to the boat
-stowing provisions
-fixing lunch
-coming off watch
-plotting a course correction
etc...

Just because she is looking good, and bikini clad doesn't mean she is not contributing..

I sense an old assumption rearing its head here

Seems to me that a woman can kick ass AND look good.


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

Oh I know you can kick ass and look good, I do it on a regular basis.


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

Badd Ass Chick Sailor Cover Girl








Is she any less attractive than the current Latts and Atts cover girl? I think not. Is she actually DOING something while looking good?- Hell yes!


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Bad Ass Chick Sailor??


No I think she means grrrls who could actually kick somebodies ass. 










Source: Meet your Fresno roller derby team


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

WouldaShoulda said:


> Bad Ass Chick Sailor??


Dude - that's just all kinds of wrong.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Mimsy said:


> Badd Ass Chick Sailor Cover Girl
> 
> 
> 
> ...


PLUS ONE!


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Dude - that's just all kinds of wrong.


I know.

She could slip on the deck in those shoes!!


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## SecondWindNC (Dec 29, 2008)

Mimsy said:


> Badd Ass Chick Sailor Cover Girl
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Way MORE attractive, actually.

Now if they could just trade outfits ...


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Joking around aside, yes Mimsy I think we get your point, and if I had a daughter, the picture you posted does show exactly the kind of woman I would prefer she see on the cover of a magazine.


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## SecondWindNC (Dec 29, 2008)

wind_magic said:


> Joking around aside, yes Mimsy I think we get your point, and if I had a daughter, the picture you posted does show exactly the kind of woman I would prefer she see on the cover of a magazine.


Agreed.


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## sailingmum (Feb 28, 2009)

*Sounds good to me !*



Mimsy said:


> My issue has more to do with the fact that the cover in question shows a bikini clad woman doing...nothing. Perching on the bowsprit, doing...nothing. A bikini clad woman at the the helm, or hoisting a sail or fishing or anything would be completely different than a passive glamour shot which only makes a strong argument in favor of my opinion that sailing can at times be a bit of a "boys club".
> 
> To each his own I suppose. Maybe I need to start a sailing magazine for women- Total Bad Ass Chick Sailors. Tania Aebi could be our cover girl, no bikini necessary.


Sounds good to me. Though as an elder, I doubt anyone wants to see me in a bikini.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

I finally looked at the cover of L&A a few moments ago. There is a common name for the seat that she's occupying. Her role in that photo is to fulfill the seat's purpose in life. She's just doing her job, why can't everyone see that?


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Uhhh...you guys do know that Bob comes to sailing from world of "Outlaw" motorcycle magazines right? L&A is the "Biker rag" of the sailing world. 

If you compare a copy of L&A to a copy of Easy Rider or Iron Horse you'll see where the format came from and you'll see that the photography of the fairer sex is quite toned down from the genre where Bob cut his publishing teeth.


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## Hunter07 (Aug 25, 2007)

I keep offering to pose for a male cover shot but I get no takers and what's all this talk about six pack abs? I've got a full keg:laugher


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Mimsy said:


> My issue has more to do with the fact that the cover in question shows a bikini clad woman doing...nothing. Perching on the bowsprit, doing...nothing.


Mimsy, you are soooo wrong on this, look at the cover again, she is on lookout for the yacumama that inhabit the waters off South America

If you look over her left shoulder, you'll see one sneeking up on them.............very serious stuff she's doing


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

Be on the lookout!!


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## nk235 (Apr 8, 2007)

Mimsy said:


> My issue has more to do with the fact that the cover in question shows a bikini clad woman doing...nothing. Perching on the bowsprit, doing...nothing. A bikini clad woman at the the helm, or hoisting a sail or fishing or anything would be completely different than a passive glamour shot which only makes a strong argument in favor of my opinion that sailing can at times be a bit of a "boys club".


If you want sailing and especially cruising magazines then go buy "Cruising World" or "Sail" or any other magazine as they tons of pictures showing women hositing sails or throwing a line or steering a boat. Latts & Atts is what it is because it IS different than all the other magazines out there and maybe it is geared a little towards men. Also no one says you have to buy it or read it.

Also your argument is spot on that sailing IS a bit of a boys club because it IS! Not saying that women arn't welcome or anything like that but the vast majority of boat owners are men. It is a simple fact and therefore it makes perfect sense to gear a magazine slightly towards men. If Bob started putting pictures of scantily clad men on the cover how many women boaters do you think are really out there to sustain all that revenue? It would sink quicker than GM! Also if he just put regular pictures of men and women "sailing" and doing sailing activites then it would be just like every other sailing magazine out there. Also my girl friend loves latts and atts so not all women mind the cover.


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## TAK (Jul 14, 2003)

erps said:


> a lot of us have six pak abs under there,,,, somewhere.


And some of us have kegs!


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

nk235, you missed my point. I like Latts and Atts content. I like their more laid back approach. I don't want to see beefcake on the cover either- if I want beefcake I look at my hubby. I don't mind beautiful women being featured on the cover at all, it would just be nice if they were beautiful women who were actually DOING something.


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## nk235 (Apr 8, 2007)

JacquelineHaden said:


> Ok...why is it that this magazine caters to men? I would like to see scantily clad men on the cover and throughout the book....


Well you wouldn't know from the first post


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

JacquelineHaden would like beefcake. The Mims...not so much.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Cool blog Mimsy, congratulations on your boat!


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## Mark1948 (Jun 19, 2007)

How about 60, breathing with a quarter keg?


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

HEHEHE! This thread is hillarious! I was laughing out loud in my office.

Ok, Mimsy and Jacq-,

I was going to post my picture up here -then I realized that you would cease to respect me for who I am and what I know. You would only see me as a body-building sex symbol. I couldn't have that. 

Take Pollard and TDW for instance: a face and a body only a mother could love. And Cam!! OH MY GOD! Beat with the ulgy stick. Yet, you still respect them for their opinions.

I hate it when chicks only want me for my body. That is why I keep a low profile and retain my modesty!!

HEHE!

- CD


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

> I was going to post my picture up here -then I realized that you would cease to respect me for who I am and what I know. You would only see me as a body-building sex symbol. I couldn't have that.


I will totally respect you...even in the morning. Go ahead and post those shots of you and Cam cavorting together on deck in your thongs...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Mimsy said:


> I will totally respect you...even in the morning. Go ahead and post those shots of you and Cam cavorting together on deck in your thongs...


Here's the pic of Cam in his thong. You asked for it. Maybe I should talk to Bob about putting this on the next cover to make the female readers of L&A happy??










Brian


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Dude! That's our very own Leslie! Where'd you find that pic?

I'm telling you - when you're driving down Congress and see from a distance what looks like a chick in a thong pushing a shopping cart down the street - you think "sweet".

Then she turns around and flashes his bearded smile - and you just feel nauseous.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> Dude! That's our very own Leslie! Where'd you find that pic?
> 
> I'm telling you - when you're driving down Congress and see from a distance what looks like a chick in a thong pushing a shopping cart down the street - you think "sweet".
> 
> Then she turns around and flashes his bearded smile - and you just feel nauseous.


Is that how you got punched in the glasses? You whistled at her, didn't you?? Well, I guess Cam packs a mean punch!!!

Haven't heard much from Mimsy and Jacq since I posted this pic. You think they're ok?

- CD


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

I'm fine...just been busy trying to head up a charity to fund Cam's much needed electrolysis.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Mimsy said:


> I'm fine...just been busy trying to head up a charity to fund Cam's much needed electrolysis.


You know... I am not trying to sound like I am complaining, but you girls wanted a man in thong... I gave you one, and now I feel like it was not appreciated.

Lesson to all the guys: You just can't make them happy sometimes. However, I will try again:

Here is Sailingdog posing for the next front cover. Is this one better??










- CD


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

Now THAT is hot.

The outfit, meh -but he is cleaning the floor. The only thing that could get me more worked up is if he was doing the laundry as well.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I just barfed.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

:laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher :laugher 

Where can I get an 8x10 signed color glossy of Dog!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Mimsy said:


> Now THAT is hot.
> 
> The outfit, meh -but he is cleaning the floor. The only thing that could get me more worked up is if he was doing the laundry as well.


You will have to get that straight from him as it would violate Sailnet policies. You see, he only has that one change of clothes...

- CD


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'll autograph the photos for a small fee..


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Ladies....CD has quite a body...just not sure about him eh?


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Somehow this thread has gotten onto a very slippery slope of disgust....lolololol......i2f


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Luckily for the rest of the world, Cam finally retired from his life of prostitution. You can now call him GrandWhammy Cammy.










- CD


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## belliegirl2 (Sep 9, 2004)

I love L and A magazine but I let my subscription die out. My wife and two daughters would raise there eyebrow everytime it came in the mail.

Not worth the trouble.


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## sailingmum (Feb 28, 2009)

yawn


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

belliegirl2 said:


> I love L and A magazine but I let my subscription die out. My wife and two daughters would raise there eyebrow everytime it came in the mail.
> 
> Not worth the trouble.


At the risk of getting my ass kicked for saying this I am going to dive in here anyway and give you my two cents, it's raining and cold here in Sydney this weekend so what the hell.....

Personally I agree with the above. I think that like it or hate it, you have to admit that basically Lats and Atts IS chauvinistic. You can call it 'catering to a male demographic' or whatever you want, but it is objectifying women......tits and ass to sell a magazine. 
I hate how this is going to make me sound, but I really wouldn't want my kids growing up thinking that was ok, that this was appropriate.........thats just me and my opinion though. I am NOT morally outraged, I do still buy the magazine occasionally.

It is what it is though I guess. Being honest the first issue I ever bought I did so because there was a gorgeous teenage girl standing on the front of a boat on the cover.....so I guess what they do works but It is an attitude that is all a little bit caveman for me...

Now bring on the Sailnet special Issue with CD straddling a grill In his Borat style Mankini I say  Lets do it to liberate the womenfolk, let's do it for Germaine Greer and the economy....


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

> I hate how this is going to make me sound, but I really wouldn't want my kids growing up thinking that was ok, that this was appropriate


It makes you sound smart, evolved and intelligent in my book.
I do not get morally outraged, just tired of fighting the same old fight over and over.

Thanks Chall. If anyone tries to kick your ass, I wil protect you. I can kick ass myself and still look damn good doing it!


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Let's face it: Sex sells. I used to send out a picture of myself with my resume. In the photo I was wearing a pair of women's underwear hiked way way way up my butt crack. My butt is pretty hairy and covered with pimples, but that didn't seem to matter. Neither was the fact that the undies I was wearing were not "clean." Somehow I had managed to put them on inside out for the photo shoot so that an old racing stripe was visible in the picture. In any case, all of my employers seem to be interested in is skin. I'm a piece of meat to them. Even though I'm a guy, they're always making sexually suggestive comments like, "Hey, Sailhog, my wife's out of town and I'm in desperate need of a human spittoon," or "Hey, Sailhog, is that triple-A battery in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?" To be perfectly honest, these comments really hurt. They make me feel all trashy inside.


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

I'd object, call out the publishers as sexists and declare all of womanhood beyond exploitaion...

....if I though it would get me laid!!


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

erps said:


> a lot of us have six pak abs under there,,,, somewhere.


I have abs created by lots of six packs, does that count?


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## mightyhorton (Dec 3, 2006)

I'm not buying into the argument that everything has to be politically correct. I don't want the world to be run along perfectly politically correct lines. What a false sense of values, a reduction of life to the lowest common political denominator where no one's feelings ever get hurt by bumping into other points of view or realities that they personally are offended by.

It is just flat out FUN to have some mostly or entirely naked hot chicks on the bow of your boat. Who can say it isn't? Who cares if they can do celestial navigation or bleed the injectors? The cover of the magazine is fun, it's entertainment, it's light hearted. Nobody has to apologize for it or be ashamed of it. Not every magazine has to work hard to empower women. There are a lot, a whole lot, of women who love that situation and who don't want to know how to tune the rigging or fix the autopilot and who make valuable contributions to the harmony and well being of the boat.

And there is some good writing in L&A by powerful sailing women. I have absolutely no doubt that Jody kicks ass and takes her turn doing important valuable stuff on the boat. And if you criticize the hot mostly naked chics on the bow, you are jumping to conclusions, you are stereotyping them. They may have just gotten done packing the stuff box or hoisting the main.

Remember, it's Bob's magazine, he gets to do what he wants with it. He is having fun with those cover shots, they sell magazines, and he is telling the truth. It IS fun to have mostly naked hot chicks on your bow, and for most of us it is fun to have them on the cover of a good sailing magazine and sorry if it offends or disturbs a few people but we just aren't supposed to run our lives so as to avoid disturbing everybody.


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

> Remember, it's Bob's magazine, he gets to do what he wants with it.


I'm sorry, I thought he was a business man who wanted my money in which case, it makes sense to listen to the voices of your customers of which I was one. Never mind, I'll spend my money elsewhere.

This isn't about being politically correct, it has more to do with being inclusive. I thought perhaps Latts and Atts would be more inclusive than Sail, Ocean Voyager or Cruisers World. I really liked the more laid back, every-man's take on sailing that Latts and Atts has. Ah well, to each his own.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

Mimsy,

Bob is not concerned about your money in particular, but money as a whole. The old saying you can't please everyone all the time is true here. He is going for the masses, and as posted by someone earlier. He is bringing along with him what worked before in his biker magazines, and obviously it is working financially once again. BEST WISHES finding a magazine that pleases not only your eye, but your intelligence also. ....i2f


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Oh for God's sake lighten up folks!

Look at any news stand - the vast majority of covers are attractive women. 

Why? Because millions of dollars were spent on marketing studies that all said the same thing - people are attracted to attractive women. Notice I said people becuase it's true of both sexes. 

BTW, it IS possible to appreciate the female form and still understand that the woman has a brain. Contrary to popular opinion God did give men enough blood to operate both heads  

You can throw out whatever PC argument you want but you're just ignoring the obvious.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I don't get L&A for the pictures. I am just interested in the articles (snicker, snicker).

- CD


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## MMR (Oct 5, 2007)

JimMcGee said:


> Contrary to popular opinion God did give men enough blood to operate both heads


Yea, but then they get cut and bleed all over projects, so blood volume is WAAAAAAY down, leading to more cutting and more bleeding. Sadly, its a vicious circle. 

:laugher


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

No...God didn't give men enough blood..it's been proven many many times with the stupidity that men exibit during and after.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

OOOPPPPS exhibit


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Oh man, Jacs, never misspell a word in the same sentence where you're calling someon stupid!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

OOOPPPPS exhibit


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Yea....that was stupid....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Same with correcting some one.......smack


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

The cover of the mag should have only ultra hot women, wearing next to nothing. After it's really a mag for men.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JacquelineHaden said:


> Same with correcting some one.......smack


Yeah - you got me.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Just picked up the current issue of L&A today; I hadn't read it in a while, but this thread piqued my interest. 

I'll admit there is an abundance of silicone on that cover boat... <O</O


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

You mean you can see it oozing out of the windows?. ....i2f


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## tager (Nov 21, 2008)

Boooooo!


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

imagine2frolic said:


> You mean you can see it oozing out of the windows?. ....i2f


It appears those triangular fabric covers are bedded in silicone


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## Undine (Jan 26, 2008)

Did I miss something or is the L&A forum just another "Off Topic"? So far I don't see any sailing here.


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## nk235 (Apr 8, 2007)

Also something that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread is the pictures for the covers were sent in from cruisers and every day people not from photo shoots where Bob pays women to "disgrace themselves." So obviously not all women mind the covers if they themselves are the ones posing and submitting the pictures....I just hate when people start complaining that certain things whether they are magazine covers or anything has to appease absolutely every single person. There are plenty of books or magazines out there about sports I like, but don't personally agree with the magazine or book BUT I don't go around saying they have to change it so it doesn't offend me!


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I'm not a particularly big fan of Latts and Atts because of the pseudo-biker format, though I've read some good articles in it. It's certainly not a very classy magazine in my opinion but it is a successful magazine that obviously meets a need.

That being said, I think the complaints say more about the complainers than the issue at hand. I'm just a bit surprised that this is an issue that is deemed worth battling over in '09. By my count, we've gone through at least three interpretations of women disrobing for Playboy alone in the past decades. First it was a liberation of the female body from the constraints of our hide-bound sexuality. Then it was an exploitation of women. Then it was independent business women taking advantage of their natural assets to further themselves. I forget what the current rationale is....

It's my impression that most women have moved on to fight battles much more worthy of their time.

As far as I'm concerned, the complaint fits in the same category as those about sailing magazines having boats on the cover that 99.9% of their readers will never be able to afford.

I'd offer my modeling services but, I'm hung like Einstein with the brains of a horse. (g)


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

btw,
Here's another example of "cover art" reaching it's targeted audience as well. Not exactly my cup of tea but neither is it a windmill I choose to joust with. I would not buy the product though, based solely on this advertisement though.
Calvin Klein Stirs Up Controversy With Racy Soho Billboard - wcbstv.com


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

What is really sad is that the "Morality Police" in this country find nothing wrong with the over-the-top violence that is seen in the mass media—shooting up a crowd of people with an assault rifle or chopping them up with a chain saw is fine, as long as you don't show anyone's tits or ass. However, the likelihood of a kid growing up and seeing T & A is far greater than that of them seeing a mass shooting/rampage...


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

Personally, I find Cosmo et all. to be boring, vapid and rather stupid but they are fashion magazines. I love me some Jimmy Choos, but I don't need or want to buy a magazine to help me learn about shopping and fashion, I do just fine on my own.

My issue is not about girls in bikinis, my issue is girls in bikinis as accessories rather than a strong, healthy, active participant. Its not about what they are wearing, its the portrayal of women as ornaments. Bodies do not offend me- the subtle message that women are merely objects does.

Yes, I do take offense at the overly violent media here in the states. I don't think it helps anyone.

Whatever. It doesn't matter because I won't be buying Latts and Atts again. I've never tried to be the morality police, just wish there was a magazine out there that showed that women can not only be beautiful, but capable and strong as well.

Oh, and I never felt "outraged". That's a pretty strong emotion and one I save for things that matter and magazines don't really matter. The reason Latts and Atts was mentioned and singled out is because there is now a whole forum devoted to them here on Sailnet. Had they not gotten a forum, I never would have mentioned it.


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## AE28 (Jun 20, 2008)

Mimsy...
I think you just did a great job of stating your "case"!
Paul


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## JomsViking (Apr 28, 2007)

SD,

I so agree with you on this one!
However I also agree with Mimsy - why show women (or men for that matter) as objects, instead of individuals?



sailingdog said:


> What is really sad is that the "Morality Police" in this country find nothing wrong with the over-the-top violence that is seen in the mass media-shooting up a crowd of people with an assault rifle or chopping them up with a chain saw is fine, as long as you don't show anyone's tits or ass. However, the likelihood of a kid growing up and seeing T & A is far greater than that of them seeing a mass shooting/rampage...


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## WouldaShoulda (Oct 7, 2008)

JomsViking said:


> SD,
> 
> I so agree with you on this one!
> However I also agree with Mimsy - why show women (or men for that matter) as objects, instead of individuals?


There just seems to be no limit of people willing to be those "objects!!"


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## JomsViking (Apr 28, 2007)

And I'd do it myself for money (if the price was right). 



WouldaShoulda said:


> There just seems to be no limit of people willing to be those "objects!!"


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Check out the cover of the July issue. Yes, it's another "babe" (at the helm), but when Bob proudly showed it to me he said, "See the look on her face? Pure joy. That's what sailing is about..."


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Mimsy said:


> Personally, I find Cosmo et all. to be boring, vapid and rather stupid but they are fashion magazines. I love me some Jimmy Choos, but I don't need or want to buy a magazine to help me learn about shopping and fashion, I do just fine on my own.
> 
> My issue is not about girls in bikinis, my issue is girls in bikinis as accessories rather than a strong, healthy, active participant. Its not about what they are wearing, its the portrayal of women as ornaments. Bodies do not offend me- the subtle message that women are merely objects does.
> 
> ...


We are putting a large number of key articles on sailnet. You should be able to get a lot of the great content without skipping over the front cover.

- CD


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Dad, could we have a tread started of just the cover pictures!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

bubb2 said:


> Dad, could we have a tread started of just the cover pictures!


HEHE! Funny. Mimsy and the others would burn me at the stake... not to mention what my wife would do!!!!

- CD


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Cruisingdad said:


> HEHE! Funny. Mimsy and the others would burn me at the stake... not to mention what my wife would do!!!!
> 
> - CD


Tell your wife she is next months cover picture! That will keep you out of trouble. Anytime I can be of help. You can thank me later.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

bubb2 said:


> Tell your wife she is next months cover picture! That will keep you out of trouble. Anytime I can be of help. You can thank me later.


How big is your boat again? You got room for a kicked-out dad, two kids, and a bull dog?


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Cruisingdad said:


> How big is your boat again? You got room for a kicked-out dad, two kids, and a bull dog?


You are welcome on my boat anytime, You know that Dad! If fact it would be fun! Your boys and my youngest son (12). When are you comming this way?


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> What is really sad is that the "Morality Police" in this country find nothing wrong with the over-the-top violence that is seen in the mass media-shooting up a crowd of people with an assault rifle or chopping them up with a chain saw is fine, as long as you don't show anyone's tits or ass. However, the likelihood of a kid growing up and seeing T & A is far greater than that of them seeing a mass shooting/rampage...


I'm perhaps just a bit obtuse but, I fail to see your point.

If you're referring to slasher movies, etc... I'd guess that they usually have as much T&A as they do gore, though I'm no expert on the subject.

I'm mostly blithely unaware of anyone using over-the-top violence to sell a product other than the exhibition of violence product itself, as in those movies. While I see T&A being trotted out to sell everything from Pirelli tires to sailing magazines, I don't see much in the way of maimed bodies, bloody bayonet equipped assault rifles, or exploding grenades being used to sell much of anything at all. One presumes that the prospective buyer might be much more kindly disposed to the product seeing it displayed with a nubile young maiden versus some rather more violent image.

As to the supposed hypocrisy of displaying or describing violence as it relates to morality you are of course wholly wrong, albeit understandably given what passes for moral debate in our age. You might wish to re-read _Hansel and Gretel_ or some of the other famous, yer terrifying, fairy tales that we've traditionally read to children. Is it unimportant that children have no concept of good and evil, and that both exist? My favorite might be _Little Orphan Annie_, by James Whitcomb Riley (the inspiration for the now more well-known play), which exhibits violence and fear towards the good service of raising children to behave properly. It's still my daughter's favorite, though I'm not at all sure at what age she realized that goblins do not exist. My fifty year old sister says that the last verse still causes chills to run up and down her spine. Both seem to think they were well served by it's lessons. You may be the judge.

Little Orphant Annie, by James Whitcomb Riley

LITTLE ORPHANT ANNIE

by: James Whitcomb Riley (1849-1916)

INSCRIBED WITH ALL FAITH AND AFFECTION

To all the little children: -- The happy ones; and sad ones;
The sober and the silent ones; the boisterous and glad ones;
The good ones -- Yes, the good ones, too; and all the lovely bad ones.

ITTLE Orphant Annie's come to our house to stay,
An' wash the cups an' saucers up, an' brush the crumbs away,
An' shoo the chickens off the porch, an' dust the hearth, an' sweep,
An' make the fire, an' bake the bread, an' earn her board-an'-keep;
An' all us other childern, when the supper-things is done,
We set around the kitchen fire an' has the mostest fun
A-list'nin' to the witch-tales 'at Annie tells about,
An' the Gobble-uns 'at gits you
Ef you
Don't
Watch
Out!

Wunst they wuz a little boy wouldn't say his prayers,--
An' when he went to bed at night, away up-stairs,
His Mammy heerd him holler, an' his Daddy heerd him bawl,
An' when they turn't the kivvers down, he wuzn't there at all!
An' they seeked him in the rafter-room, an' cubby-hole, an' press,
An' seeked him up the chimbly-flue, an' ever'-wheres, I guess;
But all they ever found wuz thist his pants an' roundabout:--
An' the Gobble-uns 'll git you
Ef you
Don't
Watch
Out!

An' one time a little girl 'ud allus laugh an' grin,
An' make fun of ever' one, an' all her blood-an'-kin;
An' wunst, when they was "company," an' ole folks wuz there,
She mocked 'em an' shocked 'em, an' said she didn't care!
An' thist as she kicked her heels, an' turn't to run an' hide,
They wuz two great big Black Things a-standin' by her side,
An' they snatched her through the ceilin' 'fore she knowed what she's about!
An' the Gobble-uns 'll git you
Ef you
Don't
Watch
Out!

An' little Orphant Annie says, when the blaze is blue,
An' the lamp-wick sputters, an' the wind goes woo-oo!
An' you hear the crickets quit, an' the moon is gray,
An' the lightnin'-bugs in dew is all squenched away,--
You better mind yer parunts, an' yer teachurs fond an' dear,
An' churish them 'at loves you, an' dry the orphant's tear,
An' he'p the pore an' needy ones 'at clusters all about,
Er the Gobble-uns 'll git you
Ef you
Don't
Watch
Out!

"Little Orphant Annie" is reprinted from Complete Works. James Whitcomb Riley. Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1916.

As to violence in the modern media, I'd certainly make a distinction between gratuitous violence and violence that serves a higher purpose. For instance, the latest Clint Eastwood movie, _Gran Torino_, is quite violent both in language and action, yet it is difficult to regard it as anything other than a very spiritual movie, in essence, a morality play for adults. You'll have to go elsewhere though for T&A!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

bubb2 said:


> You are welcome on my boat anytime, You know that Dad! If fact it would be fun! Your boys and my youngest son (12). When are you comming this way?


Ahhh... but you haven't seen how much my kids eat!!! Not even the Bulldog can keep up!!!

Brian


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

It’s funny to me that this conversation came up at all. I see in L & A that MOST of the articles and letters are by women. Complaining about the women on the cover is a perfect example of the old saying, give them an inch and they take a mile. There are many more male sailors than female. Get over it. In fact I will not renew my subscription due to the fact that I want to listen to experiences from other male sailors. The magazine has gone overboard to be politically correct and I’m sick of it. At sailnet it’s always the Admiral told me this or the admiral told me that. Has everyone lost their testicles? The media has brainwashed us into becoming ball less little clones. Everyone has to have the same opinion or they are crude, ruthless terrible people. Listen to the comments about this subject, things like, 

Mimsy and the others would burn me at the stake... not to mention what my wife would do!!!! Or How big is your boat again? You got room for a kicked-out dad, two kids, and a bull dog?
At one time, 40 years ago, it was necessary to become more sensitive. The joke is over, it’s fixed and then some. There is nothing wrong to lust after the female form. It is natural! Guys, if you use the terms better half of admiral to describe your wife or girlfriend you may want to get in front of a full length mirror, drop your pants and check to see if the mainstream media has robbed you of your manhood! Just my thoughts.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Packrat said:


> It's funny to me that this conversation came up at all. I see in L & A that MOST of the articles and letters are by women. Complaining about the women on the cover is a perfect example of the old saying, give them an inch and they take a mile. There are many more male sailors than female. Get over it. In fact I will not renew my subscription due to the fact that I want to listen to experiences from other male sailors. The magazine has gone overboard to be politically correct and I'm sick of it. At sailnet it's always the Admiral told me this or the admiral told me that. Has everyone lost their testicles? The media has brainwashed us into becoming ball less little clones. Everyone has to have the same opinion or they are crude, ruthless terrible people. Listen to the comments about this subject, things like,
> 
> Mimsy and the others would burn me at the stake... not to mention what my wife would do!!!! Or How big is your boat again? You got room for a kicked-out dad, two kids, and a bull dog?
> At one time, 40 years ago, it was necessary to become more sensitive. The joke is over, it's fixed and then some. There is nothing wrong to lust after the female form. It is natural! Guys, if you use the terms better half of admiral to describe your wife or girlfriend you may want to get in front of a full length mirror, drop your pants and check to see if the mainstream media has robbed you of your manhood! Just my thoughts.


And that is how you treat your wife and has she read this?

- CD


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

Why do I get the feeling that Packrat is really used to checking the status of his "manhood" on his own, all by himself because nobody else is interested in doing so?


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Mimsy said:


> Why do I get the feeling that Packrat is really used to checking the status of his "manhood" on his own, all by himself because nobody else is interested in doing so?


I check mine all the time just to get a second opinion.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

sailaway21 said:


> I check mine all the time just to get a second opinion.


...or maybe in the hope that it didn't really stop growing when you did!!


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## sailingmum (Feb 28, 2009)

*Guess ...*



US27inKS said:


> I saw Bob field this question in an old issue of L&A. He just said that as soon as he sees a good looking guy, he'll put him on the cover. I wouldn't hold my breath.


Since there are plenty of good looking guys around, and he clearly is attracted by women, he must have blinders on. 
It would be great to see a couple, attractive because they are just so in love with the joys of sailing. There are plenty of them around.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Mimsy, wow very humorous comment. Here is a news flash! Some women are attracted to a man who doesn’t allow the mass media to form his opinion. Some women actually like to be “ridden hard and put away wet” as the saying goes. Haha. Joke.
Earlier comment from myself…
“Guys, if you use the terms better half of admiral to describe your wife or girlfriend you may want to get in front of a full length mirror, drop your pants and check to see if the mainstream media has robbed you of your manhood! Just my thoughts.”’;

Maybe you didn’t get the memo but I was speaking to the male reader here at that point. 
Crusingdad
I treat my wife like a lady and like a friend. To reveal a personal side of myself I will tell you two things. I never call her admiral, boss, better half or whatever the latest fad. Secondly, I never tell terrible jokes about her that put her down. I don’t speak in jest about her like a sitcom that is one put down after another. I stick up for her, verbally, if someone jokes around about her. If she is voicing a belief or option that means a great deal to her I will not voice disagreement (assuming i did not agree). If pressed, I will say I haven’t had time yet to form any conclusions. If within my power I will always help her “save face”.

OK, back to the point, the photo being female on the cover. Wives and ugly women want beautiful women to disappear. They want the admiration and respect without any inconvenience. They aren’t willing to put in the work of self discipline, self control or effort. Beautiful women on the cover sells more magazines and is really the most eye catching for both male & female. Remember who brought this subject up, female. I would like the women here to know that you can not NAG everyone into feeling ashamed of enjoying the female form! I know this will fluster some…oh well.
Sailnet Rocks!


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## sailingmum (Feb 28, 2009)

am I the only one ? But as a generality, it seems to me the men can dish it out but not take it. 
So Packrat, you may treat your wife with respect but not the rest of us. Shame on you.


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

Packrat, you obviously can not read for context. No one has a problem with beautiful women on the cover as was stated many times. You can not make gross generalizations about women and their motivations without looking silly and uninformed.

The current cover shows a cute girl, in a bikini taking the helm. I have no problem with this- she is an active participant and not merely a deck ornament.

I do not have a problem with jealousy, nor do I have a problem with men (even my husband) enjoying the female form. Again, read for context and try to keep up.


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Mimsy said:


> You can not make gross generalizations about women and their motivations without looking silly and uninformed.


Isn't this exactly what you did when you assumed that the "bow babe" was doing nothing? Making a generalization that b/c she was pretty and just standing there that she didn't contribute to anything on the boat other than making it look nice?


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## Mimsy (Mar 22, 2009)

No, I am not making a generalization at all- the photo showed a women doing nothing but sitting. This is not a generalization but an accurate account of what was depicted. Photographs are static, you can "imagine" that she was taking a break after a long day's work but the photo actually showed her doing nothing so the only people making generalizations are the ones ascribing actions to the model other than what was depicted.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Sitting is highly under-rated. Margaret Thatcher sat a lot, and nobody told her she was deck fluff. The Queen of England, she sits, and she's important. Sort of.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

After reviewing this thread, it is apparent that we had to make some changes. I have discussed this thread with Bob. I told him the group concensus was that the members of Sailnet wanted a:


Guy,
Girl,
Bikini, 
Eye Candy,
Doing something other than just sitting there.

Done. Ladies and Gentlemen, here is what you get with group concensus. May I present to you Camaraderie:










Lat's and Att's may never be the same...

- CD


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

This is one twisted site. I mean f&%(%#g TWISTED..uke ..:laugher .....i2f


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingmum-Don't expect me to sit back because you are female. If a woman or man gives me crap I will respond. Maybe you are shocked because women usually get a pass. Look I am not a women hater but I have my opinion. I just would like to point out a concern of mine. Bye


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Cruisingdad said:


> After reviewing this thread, it is apparent that we had to make some changes. I have discussed this thread with Bob. I told him the group concensus was that the members of Sailnet wanted a:
> 
> Guy,
> Girl,
> ...


Ahhhh....DockBoy....I remember that evening well. When you told me I was your dream girl I was so sorry to have to tell you that Bob Bitchin' had first dibs. I thought that night was going to be our little secret. Now I'm afraid Bob will not be pleased with you. 
Ouch!


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

sailingmum said:


> Since there are plenty of good looking guys around, and he clearly is attracted by women, he must have blinders on.
> It would be great to see a couple, attractive because they are just so in love with the joys of sailing. There are plenty of them around.


Good looks are in the eye of the beholder (or beer-holder as it may be), and I would guess Bob isn't overly stricken with the male gender. A couple, attractive because they are just so in love with the joys of sailing? Seriously? I've seen some really ugly people doing things that they really love to do. They're still really ugly people, just slightly less ugly because they're smiling. Well, maybe not. Teeth help. Unattractive people having a good time isn't going to catch someone's eye from across the store. They're just unattractive people. Hell, you might as well just put me on the cover. Then you could use your issue of L&A for keeping rats off the boat.


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## sailingmum (Feb 28, 2009)

*Yep*

YEP... it is..


imagine2frolic said:


> This is one twisted site. I mean f&%(%#g TWISTED..uke ..:laugher .....i2f


sick and twisted sometimes...

sail on .... i don't give a hoot what's on any cover... just rather look at boats


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## kjango (Apr 18, 2008)

Going back to the original post & maybe pointing out the obvious . It is what it is . You certainly don't have to buy the mag . It reminds me of women who come aboard my boat & the seemingly endless litany of things that should be changed on her & things I need to do to improve my life . It would be nice to have a woman come aboard , sit down , sip her drink , display some modicum of civility , & enjoy the day as most of my male guests aboard do or maybe even do something that actually helps . The woman guests aboard that are welcome back are on a real short list for the same tendency reflected in your post .


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## cherev (Sep 6, 2000)

Maybe someone should post a 'urabon' image or two, then? That could serve both audiences. Seriously, though, what gets published is that which is both photographed and sent in, and males photograph what looks best (next to their boat), and that ain't likely to be other guys. Opening this subject is likely to bring out the militant deviants - was that the real intent?


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## MtnMike (Mar 5, 2007)

To me it's sad to see this kind of contraversy going on here. The cover was not some photo shoot to make a woman look like deck fluff. This was some guy who sent a piture in of his girlfriend or wife or even taken by her son. Who knows? I'm sure they were thrilled and proud to be chosen for the cover. I'm also sure they would be disappointed to read that they are being called noncontributing, worthless, silicone laden, deck fluff by the readers here. If you want to see other cruising pictures, there is a gallary of lots of pitures folks have sent in. The bottom line is, it's Bob's magizine, he can put any picture he wants to on the cover. He apparently likes hot looking babes on the covers of his mag. So do I.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Now HERE'S a hotty:










Don't you just love the sexy attitude with that swingin' pfd?

This is the way I usually see women on my boat...fully clothed and ready to jump overboard.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

LOL. I just saw the same ad today in Lats and Atts as I was avoiding varnishing by having a sneaky beer at the yacht club bar 

The first thing I thought of when I saw madam in her gorgeous little PFD was this thread!

I must say though, that there is ALOT of great content now in Lats and Atts. I was expecting the mag to come across as far more chauvinistic that the couple of issues I flicked through today did.


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

What a funny thread...

I didn't see the pic in question but lets all face it, even when you look as hot as my dog "Lucky" (a paid model), you have to put things in perspective.

How many times have you seen a woman rush up to magazine rack because , "Oh My god he IS Hot and a SAILOR"... nope they are more likely (men too) to gravitate to that mag has Angelina Jolie breaking up with Brad for the 100th time because between the two sexes they think they have a shot or would like to believe so...

If sex really sold this pic would have my C-27 out the door by 8:00 am tomorrow:










Do you really think she was at the helm or did I have autopilot locked and ready to go....:laugher


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Dude! I've been sailing the wrong C27!!

You are the man!


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## casioqv (Jun 15, 2009)

I saw L&A at the bookstore last weekend, and it had a photo of a woman tying off a haylard to a cleat on the mast.... Maybe they listened to the criticism in this thread?


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## sifucarl (Jan 26, 2008)

JacquelineHaden said:


> Ok...why is it that this magazine caters to men? I would like to see scantily clad men on the cover and throughout the book....


Because it's published by a man, targeting the sailing world that is predominantly men.

You gotta remember where Bob Bitchin has come from. He published an outlaw biker magazine and tattoo magazine. Is this so far fetched for him to have women gracing his magazine. I say we are lucky _(or unlucky depending on your side of this issue)_ that these women even have clothes on.

For me, when I picked up my first issue of Latts & Atts I thought, FINALLY! a sailing magazine that's not about racing or multi-million dollar yachts with a bunch of preppie snobs at the helm.

I also enjoy reading Cruising World. OMG! The May issue has 3 beautiful women just standing around on the bowsprit.

Bob, where do I renew my subscription?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

How about Bob Bitchin leaning gently on a pulpit?


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## MarioG (Sep 6, 2009)

I have pictures of my wife sailing in a bikini that most men would like would upset some woman I'm sure, but like alot of other woman I see dressed the same way where we sail is just part of the real world. I like Latt & Att because its more like my sailing style. Yes I sail bare foot. I like the articles and most of the pictures look like there taken for the reason I take them, to show how great it is. If you can't get past the cover, there are lots of other mags.


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## firciscut (Nov 2, 2009)

Funny to see Bob's still hangin' out. I used to read his articles in Biker, one of the custom motorcycle mags, in the early 80's. His path parallels my own. Walked away from the Harleys when grungy bike shops turned into Boutiques. I'm glad to be here working on boats and leaving the road behind. I think I get his mindset. I still like his attitude, lol.


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## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

Funny thread!

A few months ago I was thumbing through a pile of old photos on my wife's desk. I came to one of a boy about 8 years old and a guy about 25 standing with one foot on the deck and one on the coach roof coiling a line in his hands. I didn't recognize him. I thought maybe he was a friend of my wife. He had dark brown hair, a great tan and nicely muscled. Out of curiosity I asked my wife who it was. She just looked at me like I was insane! So I looked closer at the picture. It was then that I recognized the young boy. It was my best friends son. I looked closer at the boat, hey that's MY boat! I looked at the guy again, but it wasn't my best friend. Then it dawned on me, Holy ****! that's ME 30 years ago!

Sad when you've lost it, and don't even recognize that you ever had it.

Gary H. Lucas


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