# Knock Downs



## theartfuldodger

Being that I experienced a knock down this pass season, was wondering if anyone else has had such an experience. I've always been fearful of such a think, as was told wasn't really experienced at sailing unless had been through one. Well for me it was a real rush once it was over, as didn't really realize the whole experience until it was over. It happened of Cape George in the Northumberland Sound.


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## Plumper

What happened?


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## tonic

As for not being an experience sailor unless you've been in a knock down, I find that comical. I think a good sailor always expects the unexpected and is as ready as he or she can be with a well thought out plan before it happens. Is that to say you need a plan for everything no, but you should have things on board to impliment them. Do you have to loose a rudder, tiller or a rig to be experienced, that's B.S. It's being able to execute a back up plan properly that makes a seasoned sailor. Do you have to go though the experience physically to be experienced no, I ll be it it would help for next time. hell I hope I'm never an experienced sailor. 
How did you deal with it I've never had one. Liked to hear. PEACE


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## theartfuldodger

Late September I was sailing out of Charlottetown Harbour at about 2230 to arrive at Ballantynes Cove about 1000. There was a forcast for a shower around 0400 just in St Georges Bay at the entrance to Strait of Canso. With lighter wind then had been forcasted over night I arrived just of Cape George Pt. (45.57N-61.53W) at 1430 in a growing storm, winds off the bow of 50knots and gusting, with sea heights of about 25ft, with a larger one every 200 to 300 feet of about 40 feet plus. While sailing in this weather with just the main in its third reef, I was able to develop an approach which was manageable. After watching out for the large waves when they came, never expected to see back to back 40 plus waves. It was the second one which pushed me over and sinking the mast about two feet under water. The whole think happen so fast, that it was the mess in the boat that spoke of the act. It was at that moment that a new trust for my boat and a new bond that had developed. It took another hour to round the point and enter the harbour before I could clean up, which didn't take place until the next morning, because once my lines were tied I crashed completely worn out.


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## Valiente

Experienced at sailing is quite relative. Some pretty famous and much travelled sailors have never been in storms, or even in over 40 knots, partly as a function of where and when they've sailed, but mainly because they've deliberately tried to avoid such situations by using practiced observations, forecasts, charts, local knowledge and so on. My impression of the Canso/Strait area is that it's pretty tight and can build up very quickly if the wind is coming from the west or north east at certain speeds. May I ask if you were harnessed to the boat and did you downflood through hatches, or were you "battened down"?

A concern for me in situations where I've been well over (by which I mean 60 degrees or so, not knocked down) is the soundness of my motor mounts and whether I would pollute my fuel through a submerged vent. It's made me think I should put stopcocks at the fuel vents...but I'd have to remember to open them!


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## tonic

Glad it worked out any mast damage at all. What is you keel configuration. I know the 32 had a shoal or deep-keel model. Any damage to the boat it-self.


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## theartfuldodger

The boat got no water and the there were no internal spills, as have balls installed in lines to stop back flow if and when such a thing might happen. As for being harneessed in yes, at two points and trailing a floater line of about 70 feet behind the boat. As for avoiding storms here, its not always possible, as white squalls are a common thing. On my sail from Cape Breton to Newfoundland St John's harbour across the Grand Banks was a great sail took 2 days and 14 hours. This sail was also a good schooling as I used the weather fronts to help me, tucking in behind the lows to have them suck me along. The sail was made in very late October. The Grand banks were as flat as a table top when I arrived.


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## theartfuldodger

The boat has a shoal keel, I draw 3'10", but must say that she weights much more then made as I was directed by Charlie Morgan, and the weight is low. As for the mast it just got a wash, and no instruments on the top were damaged, speaking to Raymarine products and their durability.


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## tonic

There's no substitude for the actual physical experience, sounds like you handled it well. Two more questions, where you alone and would you have done anything different if anything. Bad weather is part of sailing and a challenge, I understand that you used it to your adavantage. Thanks for sharing PEACE


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## theartfuldodger

Yes was alone as my mate likes to arrive when I make harbour when on a long sail, and personally would sooner sail solo, as then wouldn't have to worry about anyone else, as I've read in most cases the boats usaully come out okay its the crew who bail first. But this year have made my mate captain and added more stuff to make sailing easier for her. Once I have some sort of comfort zone that she might be able to handle watches then we set sail, with a five year sail plan, I find the preparation very consuming and exciting, and this site is very informative for me.


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## CharlieCobra

dodger, fun stuff ain't it? I wrote on here about a knockdown I took on Oh Joy. One of my Son's and I went out in 10-15 for some spirited sailing with all the white sails up on a beam reach in Southerlies. Oh Joy is a 1961 Knutson Yawl, 39'4" LOA, 10' Beam, 14K#'s and a full keel with spruce sticks. We have blasted along towards the San Juan de Fuca at 7 knots for about 25 miles when we noticed rain about 10 miles off to the West. I knew a cold front was coming but the forecast was for 15-20 from the West after the change. Seeing it was 3PM and sunset was at 4:30 (PNW) I figured it was time to run for home. The winds clocked around to the West and stayed at about 10 so we beat off for room to fly the chute. I have an Assym with an ATN tracker and sock and was getting everything squared away and ready for hoist while Jay drove. Just as I was reaching for the scoop line a monstrous puff (30 knots or so) hit and the scoop line pulled loose from the cleat. Instantly, the chute self deployed and the boat laid over with me on the foredeck. I stepped from the deck to the side of the staysail boom and looked back at Jay who was laying on the low side trying to steer. I looked to see if water was coming in the house, as it was open, or the cockpit. Not a drop in either and us with the spreaders in the water for both sticks along with the sails. She shook herself off and sprinted around to the wind and I stepped down from the boom I was standing on to the deck as the chute was pinned to the shrouds. As she started falling off again, I blew the halyard and dumped the chute in the water. Now there's a lot of lines on the chute so while Jay kept her pinned to the wind, I ran around unhooking everything. While we started pulling the chute aboard the rain and the cold hit. By the time we got everything squared away, the Main down and the staysail up, the temp had dropped to 38 F, the wind came up to 50 knots and we were soaked. We fell off downwind to Flounder Bay under staysail alone running 8.5 knots and freezing. I showed Jay how to surf the waves coming off the quarter and we made it back in a little over three hours. Other than catching pneumonia, it was a great sail. Chute scoops are great, until that line gets away from ya.


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## theartfuldodger

and when how did you feel at that moment, its hard to explain the adrenalin rush when people ask, but to me was very rewarding, one has to experience to understand


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## tonic

theartfuldodger said:


> Yes was alone as my mate likes to arrive when I make harbour when on a long sail, and personally would sooner sail solo, as then wouldn't have to worry about anyone else, as I've read in most cases the boats usaully come out okay its the crew who bail first. But this year have made my mate captain and added more stuff to make sailing easier for her. Once I have some sort of comfort zone that she might be able to handle watches then we set sail, with a five year sail plan, I find the preparation very consuming and exciting, and this site is very informative for me.


 I guess it's the journey not the destination. As for sailing alone I'm with you. Once you reach that comfort zone though I think a person can really expand there horizons. It's a big responsibility.


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## Omatako

*Is there a difference*

between a knock-down and a broach?

Charlie Cobra said: "Instantly, the chute self deployed and the boat laid over with me on the foredeck." IMHO there is a considerable difference between a broach and a knock-down. This sounds more like a broach.

Having to actually go through stuff to be considered an experienced sailor is clearly nonsense. I have friends who have done three different circumnavs over 25 years and have not had to weather a full-blown storm. They have enormous reserves of experience but not in certain areas.

However, here is a quote from Eric Hiscock (Cruising Under Sail): _". . . fortunate is he who early in his sailing career encounters and successfully weathers a severe blow. No one who has done so can honestly say that he has enjoyed it, nor would he readily seek to repeat the experience but in no other way can he gain confidence in his ability as a seaman . . . ."_

We got caught in a squash zone off Raratonga with windspeeds that locked our windspeed indicator at 74 knots and seas that were huge (don't ask how big because I would probably lie). We were all down below lying a-hull waiting for first light when a wave broke and hit us beam on and laid the mast in the water. It smashed all the cabinetry off the starboard side of the boat and we all ended up sitting on the port side port-lights for a short time.

A few hours later, sailing out of the storm, we were again unable to avoid a breaking wave and with two people in the cockpit, the mast was again laid in the water but into the trough of the wave so it was way below horizontal. That is what I consider a knock-down.

In both of these, the boat stood up quite quickly. The cockpit was filled to the top of the coamings and the drains took a while to empty it out so we took huge volumes of water into the boat through the cracks and gaps in the washboards. We soon learned a better way to avoid breaking waves. We never got knocked down again.

What we will never know is how much more it would have taken to turn the knock-down into a roll-over.

This experience has definitely made me less scared of severe weather but as Hiscock said, I have no burning desire to repeat it. And you don't have to experience this sort of stuff to be an "experienced" sailor.

Andre


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## CharlieCobra

Perhaps but when the sticks are in the water, it's hard to argue the results. The mast tips were in as well as the spreaders but she didn't stay that way long. I was surprised how quickly the main dumped the water but I suppose having it sheeted out helped.

How did I feel? Surprised, edgy and pissed that I let it happen in the first place followed by calm and thoughtful action to rectify it. Yeah, there was some adrenaline but that's cool too. Having been in much worse situations than this (non sailing) it wasn't that hard to recover and do what had to be done afterwards. Another lesson learned cheaply. Don't get cocky!


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## Stillraining

*Twice*

But not in conditions you discribed...but we almost lost the boat on the second one...


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## Plumper

To me, the term broach is when a boat inadvertently turns broadside to the wind or waves and the result is sometimes a knockdown. The knockdown could be caused by either the wind or breaking waves (worse) but the broach is a function of loss of steering for a variety of reason.

Broaching and taking a knockdown with a kite up is quite common amongst racers but being knocked down while cruising is a whole different ball game. Unless the conditions are extreme it is probably a result of poor seamanship (too much sail, badly balanced helm, broken windvane/autopilot)


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## CharlieCobra

Stillraining said:


> But not in conditions you discribed...but we almost lost the boat on the second one...


Care to elaborate? Inquiring minds wanna know.


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## timebandit

Probably would not want to try that in one of those boats with all them hulls and no weight to push them back upright


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## theartfuldodger

Did one ever figure that mother nature has a mind of her own and what ever you have done and prepared for she might just do something else as in my case throw another 40 plus wave at me. If the case was do be prepared guess when winds are up and seem a little unsettled stay at the dock, NOT. I would think that second guessing is okay, until your in it.


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## Maine Sail

Plumper said:


> Unless the conditions are extreme it is probably a result of poor seamanship (too much sail, badly balanced helm, broken windvane/autopilot)


And sometimes, no matter how good you are or how well trimmed the boat is, the waves get big enough with short enough wave periods that you actually fall off them! I was knocked down twice in one storm, The Perfect Storm (and not even near the bad parts), once by falling off the wave and the other time was by having the bow stuffed by a huge wave which resulted in a "broach" as you guys call it. Semantics aside when the mast goes in the water, for what ever reason, I call it a knock down.

In my experience you will:

1) Get hurt (it's hard not to when a 50 foot vessel is dropped like a toy boat) I've broken fingers been smashed in the head by a flying VHF and a wine glass and had my eye swollen shut from a stopper knot that was whipping around at light speed! If you want my advice wear a bike helmet & ski goggles when it gets that rough!

2) Not have time to be scared! Your too busy..

3) Will at times lose control of the vessel no matter how good you are. Even hove to you can take a knockdown. Displacement hulls are not designed to go 14 knots down the face of a wave and when they do they don't handle the way you might think.

4) The boat will right faster than you thought possible. Everything happens in slow motion except the boat coming back up and the water draining from the cockpit..

5) Things will be broken no matter how much thought went into being prepared.

6) You will most likely not be knocked down due to wind but rather short and steep waves (unless racing with a chute).

7) Fast building storms IMHO are the most dangerous because the wave periods are very short compared to slower building storms which tend to have bigger overall seas but are more spread out..

8) The forces on the rudder in this type of weather are astronomical! Even with wheel steering your entire upper body will be sore for weeks! This is NO place for wimpy rudder designs..

9) Lock the lazarettes!

10) You can make decent head way under bare poles but do give up some control!!! I find sail "slivers", such as two tiny feet of genny, work better than a storm sail in some conditions..

11) Lash the dinghy to the fore deck with ratchet straps and have good pad eyes for this purpose!!

12) Desitin! In this kind of weather the LAST thing you want is SWAMP ASS. Trust me you're already miserable enough! Gold Bond does not cut it with industrial grade, Ocean induced, salty swamp ass. An NO there is NO WAY to stay dry even with your gourmet brand Henri LLoyd or Musto gear...

13) Vaseline petroleum jelly. Put it on your face! Trust me on this one it feels like your being sand blasted and the Vaseline helps....

If I think of more I'll add it...

That being said I have not encountered real sever weather since the 90's!! Woo Hooo, cross my fingers, and knock on wood!!!!


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## CharlieCobra

Maine Sail, I've seen 13 knots down a wave on a boat with a theoretical hull speed of 6.9. It ain't fun. If it's a tiller boat like mine, you're arching back and using rowing technique with your feet planted on the opposite seat. Your neck gets a crick in about 30 minutes with hours to go. However, remember these other guys have seen worse crap than I.


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## Stillraining

*Charlie*

I've written of them before...

First one pretty uneventful between Mukilteo and Hat Island back in 76 in our Mac 21. Popped back up in about 30 sec with full main of water with me standing in the sail.

Second was last summer in a friends (Bayliner 20) I think??? ... was believe it or not on Lake Pearrygin...One of thoes Eastern Washington 10 second 50knt wind gusts had half the tents in the campground riped from there stakes and tumble weeding and us laid down flat...the problem with this one was two fold...The swing keel retracted up and I had a dickens of a time clawing it out of the keel stub only to loose it again having to claw it out again ,,riped a few fingernails on that one I did..second the design of the boat has to wide a hatch for the beam of the boat and with the washboards out it started to immediately take on LOTS of water so much so that when we finally righted her she just kept rolling over and pined me under the main under water..no big deal really I am a very calm type and swam free..needless to say she is turtles now and I told my friend the owners we were going to loose her...well she kept an air pocket and about 6' of the bow above water albeit mast straight down...we were of coarse able to get a ski boat to come out to us and SLOWLY pull us in and by getting the keel finally out again and the two of us standing on its very end could keep the mast horizontal enough not to dammage it as we neared shore...once there we had lots of help to lift mast and weight keel to right her and bail...by then the Park Rangers had arrived to do a head count...

The real scary thing was my friend and the owner (our Assoiate Pastor) No green horn he delivers boats for a brokerage on the side... had just been given this boat a month before and had soloed it from Washington Park to James Island to meet up for a weekend mens group crab fest..oblivious to thease design problems..

Anyway... more campfire fodder then I'v had in a long time...

PS after this experience this is the only thing I now worry about my Irwin swing keel... and am trying to figure out some sort of down locking system... The Mac's never retracted but it does make you wonder...


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## CharlieCobra

I had my V-21's stick in the water and the keel stayed down without a locking pin, luckily. Strange to sit on the side of the hull while the boat decides whether to stand back up or not. On a lake with no lifelines so the transition was easy when it finally made up it's mind.


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## theartfuldodger

The reason for me starting this thread has been met, and have enjoyed hearing of personal accounts and personal reactions. Sitting here right now in Quidi Vidi aboard Artful, with 100 kilometers winds and blowing snow out side. Mother natural is handing out her best.


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## Stillraining

*To Bad*

The rest of us want to hear more...


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## Stillraining

*Mainsail*

Love the helmet and ski goggle Idea...Im going to use it...going to use a whitewater helmet though ...I think bike helmets are the goofiest looking thing invented...


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## Plumper

halekai36 said:


> And sometimes, no matter how good you are or how well trimmed the boat is, the waves get big enough with short enough wave periods that you actually fall off them!


Wouldn't that be a fall down?


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## mjrogers

I've never experienced a knockdown as a result of waves, and would prefer not to. I have cruised my 22' trailer sailer quite a bit and because of that purposely sailed in thunderstorms on protected waters to gain experience handling bad weather and have had the mast in the water several times (I replaced all of the rigging on the boat before doing this). What got me in those circumstances were wind shifts associated with gusts. They just blew me on my side and held me there until the gust slacked. 

The first time it was kind of tense, but the boat righted quickly. If there is any chance of bad weather I always batten down like a hurricane is coming, everything has to be stowed. I lock all the lockers and hatches, and don't open them once the weather hits. Life jackets and jacklines are used. The worst thing that ever happend was one May when we we playing in a thunderstorm. I was on the low side and the water was like ice. One of my friends said I was a lovely shade of blue. 

Playing in the storms was a great help because when I've been in places where there was no land in sight and a squalls hit I was able to deal with them comfortable, because I'd already experienced bad weather. Once the boat was under control I would try diferent tactics to see what I could do with them. I must confess that there does seem to be a big difference of wind power in protected waters and open waters. The weather service and locals with anenometers would say there were 30-40 MPH winds with gusts in the 50's on the lakes but when I've been in open waters 20-30 with gusts in the 40's (according to the weather service) was a lot more intense. It must have something to do with turbulence from the trees and shore clutter on lakes vs nothing to disturb the wind over a longer fetch on more open water, but that is a pure guess on my part. The waves were of course much bigger, but we are only talking 6 or 8 feet with a 10 to 20 foot period in open water.

I don't plan on purposely trying this where big waves are involved. There is just too much risk. Actually I don't go out asking for it anymore, I learned what I needed to and now I just use the lessons when required.


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## artbyjody

Does motoring in 7 foot seas and while coming down the hatch headbut the person coming up count for a knockdown? AFOC wants to know..if so did that wore the bruise...


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## sailingdog

Knockdowns can be interesting... depending on what caused them. The last boat I was on that got knocked down was a J24 and it was a spinnaker broach that had us pinned to the water. I was at the mast working the spinnaker pole and saw the wind shift and head for the side I thought we'd get knocked down to...and ended up sitting on the lifelines up to my waist in water.  It wasn't too bad as knockdowns go... I've certainly been in much worse. 

I hope I never experience one my current boat, since a knockdown on a multihull is the start to a really bad day.


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## sailortjk1

sailingdog said:


> the start to a really bad day.


Don't you mean end.


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## sailingdog

No, as long as the boat is still upright, the day isn't too bad IMHO...


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## TSOJOURNER

I like Halekai36's advise but want to add one:

Do not place the Desitin next to the toothpaste. I did that when the kids were small, and trust me it just might be worse than a knockdown to grab the wrong one when brushing teeth.


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## TrueBlue

fynbo - good advice, reminds me of my last "knock-down". After my wife and I were scuba diving all day off the Yucatan a couple years ago, I just stepped out of the shower and reached for what I thought was Visine - to get the red out - before our dinner reservation.

What I grabbed instead was a vial of Binaca . . . knocked me over so hard, I stayed on that bathroom floor, squirming in agony for minutes. Needless to say, I wore sunglasses to the restaurant.


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## chucklesR

As far off topic as possible but hey I didn't start it.
My former mother in law told me of the story of misplaced KY and Preparation H - long before I knew there would be a 'tactile' difference between the two.

Too much information.

I did say former mother in law didn't I?


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## sailingdog

Ouch... that must have hurt... considering what Binaca is made of... At least you didn't quaff the visine... that would have been worse.


TrueBlue said:


> fynbo - good advice, reminds me of my last "knock-down". After my wife and I were scuba diving all day off the Yucatan a couple years ago, I just stepped out of the shower and reached for what I thought was Visine - to get the red out - before our dinner reservation.
> 
> What I grabbed instead was a vial of Binaca . . . knocked me over so hard, I stayed on that bathroom floor, squirming in agony for minutes. Needless to say, I wore sunglasses to the restaurant.


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## artbyjody

FYI - Visine is worse than EXLAX... Storytime (because well I can and there is a LAS Vegas never to be bet)


I had a COB that after 280 days at sea, he discovered that his wife left him for a woman... This is 1990's (sounds old yeah)... He made the crew miserable.. Fire , flood, UFO drills - you name it - if he couldn't sleep neither could the crew...

This is after 280 days straight at sea no port..

Mind you - cooks are you best friends. They are rumor central, they know the crew, and most importantly they know you...

Said watch - getting coffee - within 5 minutes the COB is relieved of duty and on medical watch. Someone that got POED on his - ahem - I have to take it on the crew - laced his coffee with visine which is and oh my gawd - makes you piss out your arse like faster than a Kentucky derby winner...

Just keep that in mind...


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## rhedrick

*Theartfuldodger*

Just a quick question, when the second 40' wave caught him, what was his actual position to the wind - close hauled, beam reach, broad reach and also the position to the wave - heading into it, reach away from it? I find I am extremely curious as to the position of the boat in these types of incidents. I am also curious as to what the consensus is on what should be the boat position be when seeing a large squall coming - again, close hauled, beam reach, broad reach (assuming you have reefed the main and reduced the head sail or had rigged storm staysail). Any input would greatly be appreciated.

Thanks.


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## camaraderie

rhedric...for a squall you see coming: sails DOWN and secured...engine on...pointed into the wind. As squall hits...forward gear only enough to maintain heading.


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## sailingdog

You don't want reefed sails or storm sails up for a squall, since a squall line can generate winds in excess of 60 MPH pretty easily... especially if there is a microburst associated with the storm system. You want to have your sails down, as cam has said, and heavily secured... you really don't want a furling headsail to come free in a squall. If you can get your bimini and dodger down and lashed tightly, that's probably a good idea too.


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## CharlieCobra

I guess I just think differently than most folks up here. Squall? I just shorten sail and keep on trucking, it'll be over soon.


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## erps

I'm not sure we even have squalls around here (PNW) compared to what they have in the tropics. Seems like the wind associated with our fronts comes up more gradual and then last longer and we've got lots of places to duck in behind an Island.


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## CharlieCobra

I've seen two here and only two. One hit me with a 60 knot gust front and hail. It looked like a puff had me in it's sights. The other was just 35 knots or so. both caught me in the open, one on my V-21 with all sails up and no way to reef and the other with the chute up but not deployed. The chute self deployed and made things interesting. Being in the tropics and being able to see one coming would lead me to take action in preparation. Dousing the sails wouldn't be on my agenda but that's just me.


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## rhedrick

*Camaraderie, Sailingdog, CharlieCobra*

Great response. Thanks guys - this is the first time I have used the SailNet for "chatting". FYI - I personally built a Westsail 32 (20 tons), Rhino, from a bare hull (yeah, I've heard them all "wetsnail", "seaslug") twice, this last time launching 3/06, with new stick, all new rigging and 56 Yanmar, etc., etc. Plan to sail into the sunset and beyond, south by southwest, out of Dana Point, CA March 25, 2009. I suddenly find myself needing hard opinions although I have chartered as skipper out of Raiaetea (sp), Bora Bora, BVI's. A friend sailed to the south pacific and mentioned the squalls that hit in the middle of the night. He was on a broad reach and just tried to keep the boat at that angle - alone on watch, very little or no time to douse sails. As a theory discussion, if little time to react, assuming double reefed main, storm staysail, I thought maybe assuming a beam reach versus broad or close reach would be best - although hull is broadside to wind, sails would seem to me to be in better position (less reactive area) - she's a really stiff boat. Any thoughts? If had the time, I would do as suggested: the sails down, motor on and heading into wind (I want to be conservative - nothing to prove). Finally, in expecting really nasty weather, I seem to want to adopt the Lynn and Larry Pardey tactic - heave too, deploy sea anchor of bow and ride about 50 degrees of the wind. Good tactic in your opinion? Thanks again. Rick Hedrick.


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## CharlieCobra

Rick, IMHO, for what it's worth, heaving to is a great tactic when required, especially for boats like yours. I'd rather be on a broad reach than a beam reach in a blow as it's easier to sheet in tight to lessen sail pressure. Just watch out for unintentional gybes. On a beam reach however, you could ease until the leach flogs but the apparent wind would be higher. Ya might as well get some distance outta that wind. Hold a triangle out at arms length and look at the amount of exposed area on a beam reach as opposed to a broad reach. Big difference eh? Sounds like you're almost good to go. Enjoy and don't be a stranger.


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## sailortjk1

Charlie,
does it ever blow a nice steady fifteen knots by you?
everytime you go sailing the wind is blowing over 30, 40, even 50+ knots.


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## rhedrick

*CharlieC.*

Your right. I Did a small scale diagram and it becomes obvious - looking on from a beam angle, the exposure is a significantly less, with less healing (and knock down potential in a mother of all squalls) as fore and aft axis of boat less perpendicular, more downwind and yes, less apparent wind - duhhh (I think they teach that in sailing 101). I think my feeble mind was equating a broad reach with running too much. Maybe spent too much time building versus sailing. Any way, one small nagging question answered. Thanks again and will log in from time to time.


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## rhedrick

*Double reply*

Hit the button twice, must be late in the day.


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## CharlieCobra

sailortjk1 said:


> Charlie,
> does it ever blow a nice steady fifteen knots by you?
> everytime you go sailing the wind is blowing over 30, 40, even 50+ knots.


Yeah, in the Summer about August, we hardly get any wind at all. Last weekend started out at 15-17 and fell off to 3-5. It was sunny so we had a comfortable drift in the afternoon. Today is fairly light and tomorrow and Sat are supposed to be back up in the 20-30's. During any time but Summer we get lots of systems through here with large winds, usually every couple of days.


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## Plumper

erps said:


> I'm not sure we even have squalls around here (PNW) compared to what they have in the tropics. Seems like the wind associated with our fronts comes up more gradual and then last longer and we've got lots of places to duck in behind an Island.


Wait until you get hit by one of those outflow winds in Howe Sound (or any other inlet). They can go from zero to sixty in a heartbeat. Not a lot of time to down sails. Fortunately there is not much sea associated with the wind because the fetch is so short.


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## zaliasvejas

Sailingdog,
Wouldn't you want some sail to be able to have some control, so that rudder would work? I went through a nasty thunderstorm in LI sound some time back. I kept the smallest jib up and was able to kinda sail, with jib flapping and shaking..
Saw the squal coming from miles away, had time to take down sails and get dressed.. was not a pleasant experience to say the least. 
Lightning was impressive, not a single boat anywhere, but nothing happened .
I was able to aim the boat where I wanted, but by the time the waves built up, the worst was over....


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## sailingdog

Given the strength of the winds associated with squalls around here... the windage of the mast and furled sails is probably enough to give me enough speed to have steerage.


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## TSOJOURNER

*knockdowns*

At the helm on a 67' steel hulled cutter rounding the "Horn", with storm force winds gusting hurricane force, we were taking most of the winds off the port quarter. A large rogue wave from the beam hit us pushing us over with mast hitting the water. Myself and the two cockpit crew were both clicked on and the crew slid aft to the transom without going over. Being on the wheel I felt the pressure of the very cold water wanting to cuase me to lose grip on the wheel force me over. While I was able to hold on there came another problem, that of not being able to breath. Fortunately the boat righted before I had to make the decision to let go and try for the surface.
Because the boat was prepared for this possible situation there was no significant damage nor injury. Although the experience was incredible it is onr that I would not want to do again. The preparation is the key.


----------



## theartfuldodger

Question, when rounding the Horn is there a known good route or way? Reason for asking is that Kim Chow is heading that way and will soon be rounding the Horn just wondering what his safe route might be.
www.kimchowaroundtheworld.com


----------



## T34C

*I hope I never experience one my current boat, since a knockdown on a multihull is the start to a really bad day.*

Or a good one, depending on your perspective.


----------



## bestfriend

Since we're counting, I probably have more knock downs than all of you. For nearly 10 years I got knocked down, dragged through the water, banged around, and thrown back on board, every day that I went sailing.

*ON MY HOBIE CAT!*!


----------



## Giulietta

Here is my account....

Back in 1932, I was going around the world for the 5th time that week, in my 152 feet 6 mast triple keel Carbon Iron Kevlar 4 Hull Monohull Trimaran Cat, that time, I was crossing the Horn, in -30 ºF air, when the winds, blowing erratically from the East, at 92 knots and sometimes from the south at 102 knots, ice pellets were the size of Chevrolet cavaliers….. in seas that were at least, 78 feet high, and waves that were on top of each other, yep, that is how near they were in frequency, took me for a small ride...the sea was black, but the skies were blue…the clouds…were not there…..

That morning, after not sleeping for 200 days in a row, I brushed my teeth with haemorrhoid cream, and inserted visine in my butt, wearing nothing but a T-shirt a pair of flip flops and a wooden glove, so I was ready for the Horn….one more time….

I had crossed a tanker that was almost sinking and 5 life rafts form others that were attempting the impossible…but not me….I pushed forward….there I went…the cries of people saying “don’t go!!!!!”….”don’t go!!!!!”…I ignore them….after all I needed something to tell to the folks at sailnet….

At one instance, I was doing 45 knots boat over water speed, which was approximately 120 knots over the ground, when suddenly, my Starboard shrouds were immersed by a wave coming from Port side....that was not a knock down or a broach…no Sir…that was a “Knocroach”…it’s not having the rail in the water….it’s not having the shrouds wet….that was the real deal….I knew my time was coming…..my mast pointed straight down to the sea bed….the highest mast hit the coral banks 5 times, banging up and down, waking up a gigantic octopus that rolled his 10 legs (yes the famous Horn 10 legger octopus, a vicious killer)…..I realized the disarray in my socks drawer would take me a good 3 months to sort out….

The tool kit open and 200 screws were spilled on my boat’s floor….my paper plates, that I keep for MOB situations, broke in small pieces, due to the impact…..

Suddeenly, thru the thru hull huçll that I had left open, due to my own fault, I saw day light…..I managed to push my way thru the 200 screws, and the socks…and made it to the light….I put my mouth in the hole and took a fresh breath of air….after all I was under water for almost 25 minutes now….my lungs were exploding….

Suddenly, at almost the speed of sound…my keel that had retracted, when the boat was upside down after 5 rolls, miraculously won against the gravity and, went up into the sky…the boat straightened it self……

I could see all gear was on deck, including my dinghy sea ray 200 HP tender, that I had forgotten to tie….I was scared, afraid, but luckily only 3 of my boxer shorts were missing…I had washed them the day before, as I left South Africa, and left them to die in my lazy back mast furling lines…

Suddenly ….

My mast hit the water again, this time rolling over the bow….I saw the wave behind me…It was so big it dried the sea bed…., the hawk that had nested on the top of hit, went down, at least 300 feet under water....and the octopus ate it….bastard…

I was knocked down...my boat spun 4 times around the boa….the ropes were tangled, the shrouds collapsed, the sheets messed up, looked like a fisherman’s nest...in one occasion 3 tuna were caught in my sheets........I was holding tight to the tiller, that I use to row my boat…I had carved my nails in the wood…my legs hurt from the force….I held for dear life, so I stopped thinking for a while, decided to majke some bacon and a toast, I only had time to put butter one side....when I was eating it half way, another wave came from the bow...it washed me over...I has thrown out of my boat, my life came in front of my eyes, all the while I was hearing a holiwoodesque song...I am sure it was Celine Dion singing Titanic music....

Suddenly, a whale comes by me, and kicks me....I was back on my boat, all this time, I managed to get only my T-shirt wet....

I kept rolling and getting knocked down and broached 32 times more that morning….finally all has an end…and the winds bçlew a nice 60 knots 4 hours later, for only 50 minutes…so I hoisted all sails, and retured home….

That was scary…I have another story that is much worse than this….tell me if want to hear it….I don’t want people to think I am lying or exaggerating……really….

Does flipping an Optimist count as a broach or knockdown??? My son is very experienced….did that many times….


----------



## bestfriend

"knocroach"! I think you beat me with that one.


----------



## Giulietta

bestfriend said:


> "knocroach"! I think you beat me with that one.


Look man...my story is true...ok?? I was sailing today in 90knot winds, and got knockroached 5 times, and that just before breakfast...


----------



## bestfriend

Giulietta said:


> Look man...my story is true...ok?? I was sailing today in 90knot winds, and got knockroached 5 times, and that just before breakfast...


I like my knocroach on a soft roll with peppers and onions, maybe be a little spicy mustard. Make sure the onions are carmelized, I don't like them crunchy.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

Are knockroaches as hard to kill as cockroaches? And what exactly have you been drinking?


----------



## Giulietta

Nothing...I am sober..just telling my real stories...just like everyone else...just like everyone else....


----------



## TSOJOURNER

Giulietta said:


> Nothing...I am sober..just telling my real stories...just like everyone else...just like everyone else....


Of course you are.


----------



## bestfriend

Giulietta said:


> Nothing...I am sober..just telling my real stories...just like everyone else...just like everyone else....


You're a liar. You don't wear boxers, you wear tightie whities.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

bestfriend said:


> You're a liar. You don't wear boxers, you wear tightie whities.


And would you care to enlighten the rest of the class, Dear BF, as to how you know this interesting little factoid?


----------



## Alden68

that story was the funniest thing I've read in a while. Damn octopus.


----------



## Giulietta

Here is another one....
Back in 1932, I was going around the world for the 5th time that week, in my 152 feet 6 mast triple keel Carbon Iron Kevlar 4 Hull Monohull Trimaran Cat, that time, I was crossing the Horn, in -30 ºF air, when the winds, blowing erratically from the East, at 92 knots and sometimes from the south at 102 knots, ice pellets were the size of Chevrolet cavaliers….. in seas that were at least, 78 feet high, and waves that were on top of each other, yep, that is how near they were in frequency, took me for a small ride...the sea was black, but the skies were blue…the clouds…were not there…..

That morning, after not sleeping for 200 days in a row, I brushed my teeth with haemorrhoid cream, and inserted visine in my butt, wearing nothing but a T-shirt a pair of flip flops and a wooden glove, so I was ready for the Horn….one more time….

I had crossed a tanker that was almost sinking and 5 life rafts form others that were attempting the impossible…but not me….I pushed forward….there I went…the cries of people saying “don’t go!!!!!”….”don’t go!!!!!”…I ignore them….after all I needed something to tell to the folks at sailnet….

At one instance, I was doing 45 knots boat over water speed, which was approximately 120 knots over the ground, when suddenly, my Starboard shrouds were immersed by a wave coming from Port side....that was not a knock down or a broach…no Sir…that was a “Knocroach”…it’s not having the rail in the water….it’s not having the shrouds wet….that was the real deal….I knew my time was coming…..my mast pointed straight down to the sea bed….the highest mast hit the coral banks 5 times, banging up and down, waking up a gigantic octopus that rolled his 10 legs (yes the famous Horn 10 legger octopus, a vicious killer)…..I realized the disarray in my socks drawer would take me a good 3 months to sort out….

The tool kit open and 200 screws were spilled on my boat’s floor….my paper plates, that I keep for MOB situations, broke in small pieces, due to the impact…..

Suddeenly, thru the thru hull huçll that I had left open, due to my own fault, I saw day light…..I managed to push my way thru the 200 screws, and the socks…and made it to the light….I put my mouth in the hole and took a fresh breath of air….after all I was under water for almost 25 minutes now….my lungs were exploding….

Suddenly, at almost the speed of sound…my keel that had retracted, when the boat was upside down after 5 rolls, miraculously won against the gravity and, went up into the sky…the boat straightened it self……

I could see all gear was on deck, including my dinghy sea ray 200 HP tender, that I had forgotten to tie….I was scared, afraid, but luckily only 3 of my boxer shorts were missing…I had washed them the day before, as I left South Africa, and left them to die in my lazy back mast furling lines…

Suddenly ….

My mast hit the water again, this time rolling over the bow….I saw the wave behind me…It was so big it dried the sea bed…., the hawk that had nested on the top of hit, went down, at least 300 feet under water....and the octopus ate it….bastard…

I was knocked down...my boat spun 4 times around the boa….the ropes were tangled, the shrouds collapsed, the sheets messed up, looked like a fisherman’s nest...in one occasion 3 tuna were caught in my sheets........I was holding tight to the tiller, that I use to row my boat…I had carved my nails in the wood…my legs hurt from the force….I held for dear life, so I stopped thinking for a while, decided to majke some bacon and a toast, I only had time to put butter one side....when I was eating it half way, another wave came from the bow...it washed me over...I has thrown out of my boat, my life came in front of my eyes, all the while I was hearing a holiwoodesque song...I am sure it was Celine Dion singing Titanic music....

Suddenly, a whale comes by me, and kicks me....I was back on my boat, all this time, I managed to get only my T-shirt wet....

I kept rolling and getting knocked down and broached 32 times more that morning….finally all has an end…and the winds bçlew a nice 60 knots 4 hours later, for only 50 minutes…so I hoisted all sails, and retured home….

That was scary…I have another story that is much worse than this….tell me if want to hear it….I don’t want people to think I am lying or exaggerating……really….

Does flipping an Optimist count as a broach or knockdown??? My son is very experienced….did that many times….


----------



## billangiep

Excellent tale Gui....glad you lived to tell it!!!


----------



## Alden68

I just "knocked over" my beer from laughing. Does that count???


----------



## Giulietta

billangiep said:


> Excellent tale Gui....glad you lived to tell it!!!


*IT'S GIU DAMN IT!!!!!!*

      ​
And it's not a tale..it's the truth.....


----------



## TSOJOURNER

Giu, does that make you a Weeble? (Weebles wobble but they don't fall down...)

If you're not careful you'll become the next Paul Bunyan....Knockroach Giu the Portagoo.


----------



## Giulietta

I don't think that your jokes are welcome in this serious thread...please stop ridiculing it NOW!!!!

have some respect for the sea victims...


----------



## TSOJOURNER

Many humble apologies, GUI.


----------



## camaraderie

I sense that some of you feel Giu's story exaggerates a bit like some of the others above who claim knockdowns when their rail touches the water for the firstt time in 20 years of "sailing". Well I am here to tell you it is all true! I was was heaved to in my RV (which is a blue water RV...not a Catalina!) and making myself a nice Starbucks mocha latte from the 64 lb. stash of French Roast that we keep on board. Suddenly over the VHF I heard what seemed to be a little girl's voice screaming "Mayday Mayday...this is the sailing vessel Giulietta. I am taking on water and my boom is broken again and all my sheep have jumped ship. I cannot carry on in these conditions. My 1000 days at sea must end here...after 24 hours out of the sight of land!! Let Reid Stowe have the record. He may be able to survive on bean sprouts but I need my mutton! 
So...I turned my RV around and went to the poor man's rescue and after removing his rather stained shorts and donning his dry Captain Faggo duds, I welcomed him aboard and scuttled his tin can of a boat and headed for Portugal where he promised me he would never again sail out of sight of land. *And that my friends is how Giu became a racing sailor! *
Here's the rescue vessel:


----------



## bestfriend

Giulietta said:


> *IT'S GIU DAMN IT!!!!!!*
> 
> ​
> And it's not a tale..it's the truth.....


Either way you spell it, its still pronounced "gooey"


----------



## TSOJOURNER

bestfriend said:


> Either way you spell it, its still pronounced "gooey"


That's right folks...our Portuguese friend is in fact this guy's long lost nephew:


----------



## denby

GUI, 


How old where you when you sailed around the world?


----------



## Giulietta

denby said:


> GUI,
> 
> How old where you when you sailed around the world?


9

Right after I graduated from medical school...which I did after my degree in nautical and maintenance engineering....like many here


----------



## denby

Giulietta said:


> 9
> 
> Right after I graduated from medical school...which I did after my degree in nautical and maintenance engineering....like many here


I knew you where an old man, that makes you 85 years old.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

G--why don't you just raise the bulls**t flag and be done with it?

(not that your tale wasn't VERY entertaining...I myself love a good tall tale--I mean creative non-fiction.)


----------



## Giulietta

Oh really?? BS??? what about the others?? huh???

OK read this one..



Back in 1932, I was going around the world for the 5th time that week, in my 152 feet 6 mast triple keel Carbon Iron Kevlar 4 Hull Monohull Trimaran Cat, that time, I was crossing the Horn, in -30 ºF air, when the winds, blowing erratically from the East, at 92 knots and sometimes from the south at 102 knots, ice pellets were the size of Chevrolet cavaliers….. in seas that were at least, 78 feet high, and waves that were on top of each other, yep, that is how near they were in frequency, took me for a small ride...the sea was black, but the skies were blue…the clouds…were not there…..

That morning, after not sleeping for 200 days in a row, I brushed my teeth with haemorrhoid cream, and inserted visine in my butt, wearing nothing but a T-shirt a pair of flip flops and a wooden glove, so I was ready for the Horn….one more time….

I had crossed a tanker that was almost sinking and 5 life rafts form others that were attempting the impossible…but not me….I pushed forward….there I went…the cries of people saying “don’t go!!!!!”….”don’t go!!!!!”…I ignore them….after all I needed something to tell to the folks at sailnet….

At one instance, I was doing 45 knots boat over water speed, which was approximately 120 knots over the ground, when suddenly, my Starboard shrouds were immersed by a wave coming from Port side....that was not a knock down or a broach…no Sir…that was a “Knocroach”…it’s not having the rail in the water….it’s not having the shrouds wet….that was the real deal….I knew my time was coming…..my mast pointed straight down to the sea bed….the highest mast hit the coral banks 5 times, banging up and down, waking up a gigantic octopus that rolled his 10 legs (yes the famous Horn 10 legger octopus, a vicious killer)…..I realized the disarray in my socks drawer would take me a good 3 months to sort out….

The tool kit open and 200 screws were spilled on my boat’s floor….my paper plates, that I keep for MOB situations, broke in small pieces, due to the impact…..

Suddeenly, thru the thru hull huçll that I had left open, due to my own fault, I saw day light…..I managed to push my way thru the 200 screws, and the socks…and made it to the light….I put my mouth in the hole and took a fresh breath of air….after all I was under water for almost 25 minutes now….my lungs were exploding….

Suddenly, at almost the speed of sound…my keel that had retracted, when the boat was upside down after 5 rolls, miraculously won against the gravity and, went up into the sky…the boat straightened it self……

I could see all gear was on deck, including my dinghy sea ray 200 HP tender, that I had forgotten to tie….I was scared, afraid, but luckily only 3 of my boxer shorts were missing…I had washed them the day before, as I left South Africa, and left them to die in my lazy back mast furling lines…

Suddenly ….

My mast hit the water again, this time rolling over the bow….I saw the wave behind me…It was so big it dried the sea bed…., the hawk that had nested on the top of hit, went down, at least 300 feet under water....and the octopus ate it….bastard…

I was knocked down...my boat spun 4 times around the boa….the ropes were tangled, the shrouds collapsed, the sheets messed up, looked like a fisherman’s nest...in one occasion 3 tuna were caught in my sheets........I was holding tight to the tiller, that I use to row my boat…I had carved my nails in the wood…my legs hurt from the force….I held for dear life, so I stopped thinking for a while, decided to majke some bacon and a toast, I only had time to put butter one side....when I was eating it half way, another wave came from the bow...it washed me over...I has thrown out of my boat, my life came in front of my eyes, all the while I was hearing a holiwoodesque song...I am sure it was Celine Dion singing Titanic music....

Suddenly, a whale comes by me, and kicks me....I was back on my boat, all this time, I managed to get only my T-shirt wet....

I kept rolling and getting knocked down and broached 32 times more that morning….finally all has an end…and the winds bçlew a nice 60 knots 4 hours later, for only 50 minutes…so I hoisted all sails, and retured home….

That was scary…I have another story that is much worse than this….tell me if want to hear it….I don’t want people to think I am lying or exaggerating……really….


----------



## denby

After reading this thread I'm glad I have my boots on. It's getting mighty deep in here.


----------



## T34C

G- After reading that amazing account of your voyage, I find I have a couple of questions.....1) Which way were you trying to round the horn East to West, or West to East? 2) What happened to your toast?


----------



## denby

Alex,

Read your mail.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

denby said:


> After reading this thread I'm glad I have my boots on. It's getting mighty deep in here.


Boots schmoots. I'm only 5'2"...I may have to bail on this thread while I still can


----------



## T34C

camaraderie said:


> *I turned my RV around and went to the poor man's rescue and after removing his rather stained shorts and donning his dry Captain Faggo duds*
> 
> The birth of the AFOC burgee.


----------



## Giulietta

T34C said:


> G- After reading that amazing account of your voyage, I find I have a couple of questions.....1) Which way were you trying to round the horn East to West, or West to East? 2) What happened to your toast?


I was rounding the Horn, the "man's" way...North to South.....

The toast was devoured by the vicious 10 legged Horn Octopus...but don't worry...I spat on it before he took it....so he will be very sick in its head...he will soon lose all hope...the simptoms??

He will buy a trimaran that he insists in calling boat, spend the time fitting stuff to it, sail it 4 times a year and join sailnet where with its 10 arms he will post an average 30 posts a day...


----------



## TSOJOURNER

Wouldn't a ten-legged octopus be a squid? Or is that just a newbie question?


----------



## bestfriend

Giulietta said:


> He will buy a trimaran that he insists in calling boat, spend the time fitting stuff to it, sail it 4 times a year and join sailnet where with its 10 arms he will post an average 30 posts a day...


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! Oh man my sides hurt!


----------



## Freesail99

I saw White squall, yesterday ........


----------



## bestfriend

I can't wait till TAD comes back and sees his thread up over 100 posts. Only to find a bunch of morons on it.


----------



## Alden68

is this what 'hijacking" a thread is?


----------



## Giulietta

Yes they hijacked the thread...bastardos sujos...


----------



## Alden68

damn octopus


----------



## bestfriend

Giulietta said:


> Yes they hijacked the thread...bastardos sujos...


The devil made me do it.


----------



## Giulietta

bestfriend said:


> The devil made me do it.


My son LUIS???


----------



## bestfriend

Giulietta said:


> My son LUIS???


Lets leave it at that shall we?


----------



## TSOJOURNER

If you spawned the devil, Giu, what does that make you? Just curious.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

I can vouch for Giu, I was with him on that trip. 6 years old at the time and my job was to uncork the Portugese wine and pour it in the fuel tank so we could get around the horn. It's a true story, it really is.


----------



## T34C

Damn it man, the toast! What happened to the Toast!


----------



## TSOJOURNER

Pay attention....the octosquiddog ate it!


----------



## T34C

DJEVANS said:


> Pay attention....the octosquiddog ate it!


No, no, no, the ocotduosquiddog ate the owl, or penguin, or whatever.


----------



## Giulietta

T34C said:


> Damn it man, the toast! What happened to the Toast!


read #88 above you one eyed double anus twit


----------



## TSOJOURNER

ROFL...one eyed...hooooo....can't breathe...


----------



## T34C

Giulietta said:


> I was rounding the Horn, the "man's" way...North to South.....
> 
> The toast was devoured by the vicious 10 legged Horn Octopus...but don't worry...I spat on it before he took it....so he will be very sick in its head...he will soon lose all hope...the simptoms??
> 
> He will buy a trimaran that he insists in calling boat, spend the time fitting stuff to it, sail it 4 times a year and join sailnet where with its 10 arms he will post an average 30 posts a day...


I think I just shat myself laughing!!!!!


----------



## T34C

Where is the 10 legged Hornopus? I need him to tell me how to get Capt. off an lcd screen.


----------



## Valiente

If I hadn't providentially been standing on Cape Horn that day, letting out "dirty air", the junior Giu might still be stuck in that horrible whirlpool. Thank God I eat plenty of stewed _favas_ with garlic-stuffed _chouriço_.

Truth!


----------



## Cruisingdad

Giulietta said:


> Oh really?? BS??? what about the others?? huh???
> 
> OK read this one..
> 
> Back in 1932, I was going around the world for the 5th time that week, in my 152 feet 6 mast triple keel Carbon Iron Kevlar 4 Hull Monohull Trimaran Cat, that time, I was crossing the Horn, in -30 ºF air, when the winds, blowing erratically from the East, at 92 knots and sometimes from the south at 102 knots, ice pellets were the size of Chevrolet cavaliers&#8230;.. in seas that were at least, 78 feet high, and waves that were on top of each other, yep, that is how near they were in frequency, took me for a small ride...the sea was black, but the skies were blue&#8230;the clouds&#8230;were not there&#8230;..
> 
> That morning, after not sleeping for 200 days in a row, I brushed my teeth with haemorrhoid cream, and inserted visine in my butt, wearing nothing but a T-shirt a pair of flip flops and a wooden glove, so I was ready for the Horn&#8230;.one more time&#8230;.
> 
> I had crossed a tanker that was almost sinking and 5 life rafts form others that were attempting the impossible&#8230;but not me&#8230;.I pushed forward&#8230;.there I went&#8230;the cries of people saying "don't go!!!!!"&#8230;."don't go!!!!!"&#8230;I ignore them&#8230;.after all I needed something to tell to the folks at sailnet&#8230;.
> 
> At one instance, I was doing 45 knots boat over water speed, which was approximately 120 knots over the ground, when suddenly, my Starboard shrouds were immersed by a wave coming from Port side....that was not a knock down or a broach&#8230;no Sir&#8230;that was a "Knocroach"&#8230;it's not having the rail in the water&#8230;.it's not having the shrouds wet&#8230;.that was the real deal&#8230;.I knew my time was coming&#8230;..my mast pointed straight down to the sea bed&#8230;.the highest mast hit the coral banks 5 times, banging up and down, waking up a gigantic octopus that rolled his 10 legs (yes the famous Horn 10 legger octopus, a vicious killer)&#8230;..I realized the disarray in my socks drawer would take me a good 3 months to sort out&#8230;.
> 
> The tool kit open and 200 screws were spilled on my boat's floor&#8230;.my paper plates, that I keep for MOB situations, broke in small pieces, due to the impact&#8230;..
> 
> Suddeenly, thru the thru hull huçll that I had left open, due to my own fault, I saw day light&#8230;..I managed to push my way thru the 200 screws, and the socks&#8230;and made it to the light&#8230;.I put my mouth in the hole and took a fresh breath of air&#8230;.after all I was under water for almost 25 minutes now&#8230;.my lungs were exploding&#8230;.
> 
> Suddenly, at almost the speed of sound&#8230;my keel that had retracted, when the boat was upside down after 5 rolls, miraculously won against the gravity and, went up into the sky&#8230;the boat straightened it self&#8230;&#8230;
> 
> I could see all gear was on deck, including my dinghy sea ray 200 HP tender, that I had forgotten to tie&#8230;.I was scared, afraid, but luckily only 3 of my boxer shorts were missing&#8230;I had washed them the day before, as I left South Africa, and left them to die in my lazy back mast furling lines&#8230;
> 
> Suddenly &#8230;.
> 
> My mast hit the water again, this time rolling over the bow&#8230;.I saw the wave behind me&#8230;It was so big it dried the sea bed&#8230;., the hawk that had nested on the top of hit, went down, at least 300 feet under water....and the octopus ate it&#8230;.bastard&#8230;
> 
> I was knocked down...my boat spun 4 times around the boa&#8230;.the ropes were tangled, the shrouds collapsed, the sheets messed up, looked like a fisherman's nest...in one occasion 3 tuna were caught in my sheets........I was holding tight to the tiller, that I use to row my boat&#8230;I had carved my nails in the wood&#8230;my legs hurt from the force&#8230;.I held for dear life, so I stopped thinking for a while, decided to majke some bacon and a toast, I only had time to put butter one side....when I was eating it half way, another wave came from the bow...it washed me over...I has thrown out of my boat, my life came in front of my eyes, all the while I was hearing a holiwoodesque song...I am sure it was Celine Dion singing Titanic music....
> 
> Suddenly, a whale comes by me, and kicks me....I was back on my boat, all this time, I managed to get only my T-shirt wet....
> 
> I kept rolling and getting knocked down and broached 32 times more that morning&#8230;.finally all has an end&#8230;and the winds bçlew a nice 60 knots 4 hours later, for only 50 minutes&#8230;so I hoisted all sails, and retured home&#8230;.
> 
> That was scary&#8230;I have another story that is much worse than this&#8230;.tell me if want to hear it&#8230;.I don't want people to think I am lying or exaggerating&#8230;&#8230;really&#8230;.


Finally, you can tell a truthfull story. Much more believable than that broken knotmeter you have on your current tub which shows 14kts, or some gargbage.


----------



## sailingdog

CD-

That's because GUI keeps confusing KPH for Knots.


----------



## Hm2michaud

*Schooner Knock Down*

It was a hot, hazy summer August afternoon in 1996, with thunderstorms predicted that the 126 ft S/V Adventure, an Essex built 1926 schooner, left Newburyport. Ma bound for Gloucester. A squall came up off of Rockport and she suffered a knockdown. The fear was that the gaff rig would break free and tumble to the deck, the reality was the port rail was forced to the water as the main sail burster apart, as the crew was unable to free the 2 inch main sheet. A knock down happens in a instant, with unimaginable force and with little time to respond. As you run to safe harbor, sometimes the devil grabs you, but after the storm, tranquility and peace surrounds you. This was my experience in a powerful knock down situation.


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## TSOJOURNER

I was sailing in a Cal 20 with to much sail up for the conditions 25 knot winds, when a 40 -50 knt gust knocked the boat flat, with mast hitting water etc... I was on the leeward side and got swept out of the boat due to fast water coming over the side. Fortunately I grabbed the ladder and my sailing partner knew enough to release the sails. The boat quicky popped back up (thank god for those Cals). But being keel-hauled behind a fast moving boat was quite the experience!

We were fine but I learned a valuable lesson the hard way. Nowdays I slow down, reef early, and use a lifeline.


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## Giulietta

Well...since we're talking about serious life endangering experiences...

in 1931, I was returning from my 3rd coastal circunavigation in my Optimist, I had all 12 sails up..I don't want to exagerate...but I had at least 12.000 Sq. feet of sail up, when suddenly....a meteor fell 100 yards in front of me....

It built a wave that was more, much more taller than a Tsunami...it was in fact the only registered (so far), *Tsunimamy*...a Tsunami to the square...the king of waves...

The night before I had noticed that when I left port, 345 days before, I had forgoten to attach the rudder, and my keel was bitten by a vicious Killer Whale 23 days before, after I ran into the Orca at 300 knots boat speed, my average cruising speed...so there I was alone, in my 7 foot yacht, all that sail up, sailing at around 67 knots, in 123 knots winds....when....well the metoer hit the water..."Plop"....man you think Forest Gump was in deep S**T when he was piloting Apollo 13....this was much worse....this was the Larry the Cable guy goes to war seas.....

The impact was so violent I dropped my nail clipper overboard...I knew all my hopes of cuting the lines and ditch the mast were gone...no nail clipper....I knew I was doomed...I had ran out of butter, too....

The first wave hit me head on, I automatically went into an uncontrolable *knockUp*...yes...the vicious *knockup*...this is no mast in the water thing, no Sir.......this is when the wave is so big, it turns your sails upsidedown in the mast...its confusing....the clew becomes the tack, the head becomes the clew...and worse...the ropes get turned inside out...you are now sailing holding on to the ropes's core...and that hurts your hands....well hand..since I had broken the week before one arm, a leg, 13 ribs and twisted my ancle while grilling a steak in 300 foot waves...

It was scary..but I was not affraid...I followed SD's advice and had a whole bunch of paper plates to tell the Coast guard where I was....

Oh well...gotta go now....but to cut a long story short....in my knockup, the boat flipped longitudinally 23 times before it came to a stop, bow down...yes...my stern was mooning the moon, (can you do that??)...I was under water holding my breath for 45 minutes, when sudenly....the boat righted it self....I was lucky....my TV didn't get wet, and my extensive of alreadt filled SUDOKU puzzles was also dry....that day I crossed the Horn once more, and landed in the Azores, where I had a deliciuous Dolphin steak....


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## sailortjk1

WOW!
That must have been one hell of a wave.
Did you wear a harness, were you tethered to the Opti?
Did you make sure to close all of your hatches, wait, does an Opti even have hatches? How did you catch the Dolphin Fish?
Where did you stow your fish hooks? What kind of Anchor did you set?
How much scope? That is not enough scope, you need more. Did you drink the sea water?


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## Wannafish

sailortjk1 said:


> WOW!
> That must have been one hell of a wave.
> Did you wear a harness, were you tethered to the Opti?
> Did you make sure to close all of your hatches, wait, does an Opti even have hatches? How did you catch the Dolphin Fish?
> Where did you stow your fish hooks? What kind of Anchor did you set?
> How much scope? That is not enough scope, you need more. Did you drink the sea water?


If the singular of "Hatch" is, well...Hatch; then why isn't the plural form "Hatch-i"?
I guess if it was, a certain Stainless Steel Grill fanatic would confuse it with his "Hatachi" Grill - or is that his Hibachi grill?

And now, back to your regularly scheduled program: "Captain Mo-Ron"


----------



## max-on

Wannafish said:


> If the singular of "Hatch" is, well...Hatch; then why isn't the plural form "Hatch-i"?
> I guess if it was, a certain Stainless Steel Grill fanatic would confuse it with his "Hatachi" Grill - or is that his Hibachi grill?
> 
> And now, back to your regularly scheduled program: "Captain Mo-Ron"


Professor, where are you?


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## CharlieCobra

Alex got confused and thought this was the other thread.


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## sgkuhner

*knock down in the Atlantic*

In 1974 my wife, Kitty, and I were sailing from St Thomas to New York in July. We were completing a three year circumnavigation in our 30 foot Allied Seawind Ketch. Half way between Hatteras and Bermuda, we got hit by a hurricane and at 0200 July 14, while lying ahull in 85 kts of wind, a huge wave came and we fell off the top of it. When we hit the water it seemed as though the whole boat exploded. Actually the main hatch was blown off, as were the teak grab rails on the cabin top, the spray dodger, the wind-vane self-steering device and the stanchions on the lee side were flattened against the cabin top. When we righted, the water was up to the level of the bunks. Luckily we had the most efficient bilge pump in the world, ...a frightened woman with a bucket! While Kitty got us bailed dry, I bolted a piece of plywood over the companionway hatch opening. There was no time to even think about how much peril we were in. We just did what we had to and by 1100 the next day the wind was down to a mere 35 kts.


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## CharlieCobra

Dude! That's not a knockdown, that's a body slam.


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## theartfuldodger

Sgkuhner, was wondering if you might tell more of how you finished up after the storm, were you able to sail on to a safe harbour and make repairs.


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## Giulietta

No..it's a "roachlam"...almost a "knockody"...wew......

reminds me when back in 1941 after dodgin NAZI subs......


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## CharlieCobra

Alex, you been over at your ex neighbor's boat sharing a bowl with him? This isn't your knockroach thread. This is the legitimate one.


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## Stillraining

Good luck reining him in Charlie..Hee hee

Note to self...Carry extra plywood...OH never mind ...My boat would have exploded...



CharlieCobra said:


> Alex, you been over at your ex neighbor's boat sharing a bowl with him? This isn't your knockroach thread. This is the legitimate one.


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## CharlieCobra

From what I understand, a bluewater cruiser should carry precut plywood blanks for every hatch and port on the boat and have a means of attaching them, especially with newer boats. The ports on my boat are old school bronze ovals with 1/4" thick glass. Anything strong enough to break them is likely going to tear the entire house off. The old wood hatches are a different story.


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## denby

Giu,

Are you working again? It seems you have too much time on your hands.


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## Stillraining

Chock up another reason mine ain't no blue water boat...There are 15 ports and 5 hatches...I would need a trailer to haul all that plywood..



CharlieCobra said:


> From what I understand, a bluewater cruiser should carry precut plywood blanks for every hatch and port on the boat and have a means of attaching them, especially with newer boats. The ports on my boat are old school bronze ovals with 1/4" thick glass. Anything strong enough to break them is likely going to tear the entire house off. The old wood hatches are a different story.


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## artbyjody

I you do not have planks then you can not walk them - therefore you can not be pirated.. or did I lose sight of what the discussion is about...


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## Giulietta

artbyjody said:


> I lose sight of what the discussion is about...


This is where we come here after catching a sardine, and tell how big the "tuna" was......

Or in other words...this is where we read the terrible 1000 foot waves and 300 knot winds...and the tall stories that come with them....more or less...


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## Stillraining

Boy am i dense ...I had to read that 5 times befor i got it... ...True story...

Edit: Does this mean thease are not real stories...



Giulietta said:


> This is where we come here after catching a sardine, and tell how big the "tuna" was......
> 
> Or in other words...this is where we read the terrible 1000 foot waves and 300 knot winds...and the tall stories that come with them....more or less...


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## sailingdog

What Gui says has to be taken with a grain or bucket of salt.  His connection to reality is somewhat tenuous.


----------



## Giulietta

sailingdog said:


> What Gui says has to be taken with a grain or bucket of salt.  His connection to reality is somewhat tenuous.


Off course SD....off course.....what I say...off course.....


----------



## artbyjody

Stillraining said:


> Edit: Does this mean thease are not real stories...


They are - repeat after me... very true stories if you believe they are true ...they sound true... but are in reality are as true as blue..during a non blue true sunset.... repeat 50 times... the 1/2 you do not get from me will sink in... it will all be green....which means prosperity in the dream analysis...


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## Stillraining

Now that I understood....



artbyjody said:


> They are - repeat after me... very true stories if you believe they are true ...they sound true... but are in reality are as true as blue..during a non blue true sunset.... repeat 50 times... the 1/2 you do not get from me will sink in... it will all be green....which means prosperity in the dream analysis...


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## bobwebster

Get a catamaran. Then when you're knocked down, you'll stay down and nobody will question your integrity.


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## sgkuhner

*knockdown*

First, we always keep our life raft on the floor in the cockpit and have a piece of plywood supported by fids fastened to either side of the cockpit well jut below the sail locker hatches. Had the life raft been kept on deck it would have been torn off the cabin top by the force of the water. It was that piece of plywood we used to cover the companionway hatch that was ripped off.

The main boom, which had been sheeted tight to the mizzen mast, was severely bent. Using a block and tackle secured to the toe-rail and the boom we were able to almost straighten it out. By 1200 (the knockdown was at 0200) the wind was down to 35 kts and we were able to set a storm jib, a reefed main and the mizzen. (I believe that we did not lose the rig because we had re-rigged in New Zealand with galvanized rigging three sizes larger than what was on there as it was the only wire available at the time)

With that rig we sailed into New York harbor and after cleaning up the engine, I was able to get it started (the engine was an 18 hp Albin diesel that I could hand crank) to get through Hells gate and around to City Island. The next day we sailed to Westport CT our home port and spent the rest of the summer fixing our 30 foot Allied Seawind Ketch "Bebinka" and in the fall we sailed her back to St Thomas to spend another winter in the Caribbean. Below (if I have figured out how to do this, I have posted a picture of what the interior looked like the morning after the knockdown


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## sgkuhner

*knockdown*

Here is a picture of what it looked like below deck in the main salon the next morning
.









Edited by CD... here you go, I posted the pic for you. Hope that helps. Looks like a mess!!!!


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## sgkuhner

let me see if I can post the picture directly Image of below after knockdown - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting


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## Cruisingdad

sgkuhner said:


> let me see if I can post the picture directly Image of below after knockdown - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting


I did it for you in previous post.

- CD


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## sgkuhner

what did I do wrong and how can I post a picture directly


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## CharlieCobra

If the pic is on Photobucket, just click the IMG code line below the pic and paste it into the post.


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## mtboat

*Visine coctails*



artbyjody said:


> FYI - Visine is worse than EXLAX... Storytime (because well I can and there is a LAS Vegas never to be bet)
> 
> I had a COB that after 280 days at sea, he discovered that his wife left him for a woman... This is 1990's (sounds old yeah)... He made the crew miserable.. Fire , flood, UFO drills - you name it - if he couldn't sleep neither could the crew...
> 
> This is after 280 days straight at sea no port..
> 
> Mind you - cooks are you best friends. They are rumor central, they know the crew, and most importantly they know you...
> 
> Said watch - getting coffee - within 5 minutes the COB is relieved of duty and on medical watch. Someone that got POED on his - ahem - I have to take it on the crew - laced his coffee with visine which is and oh my gawd - makes you piss out your arse like faster than a Kentucky derby winner...
> 
> Just keep that in mind...


 Just fyi, Visine is tetrahydrozaline, a deadly poison. It is covered in "Outdoor Emergency Care". The old bartender trick to get rid of a patron, is dangerous.


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## sgkuhner

*knockdown*

Here si what the deck looked like after the knockdown.


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## sgkuhner

I'll try again


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## CharlieCobra

Looks like some items were torn away.


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## camaraderie

Obviously poor seamanship!


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## sgkuhner

Yes cam; but my semen is obviously of better quality than yours


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## Giulietta

sgkuhner said:


> Yes cam; but my semen is obviously of better quality than yours


Ahhh CD can vouch for that.....


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## camaraderie

Scott...but yours is all gone now! Besides you're just hiding behind Miss Kitty's Gene Pool. When you came along...it was "everybody out of the pool"!!


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## dell30rb

I got knocked down on one of the first few times i went sailing. I was probably 12 years old, sailing with my dad and our friend travis in his pearson 424. Travis is easily the most experienced sailor I know, he's been sailing for probably 50 years now, owned many sailboats, gone many places and says he's never been knocked down like that. We were sailing in the chesapeake bay.. dodging squalls all day when we got hit by what we think were microbursts. We were motorsailing with just the genoa up in about 7-10 knots of wind (main had a problem and was left on the boom) and I remember it was raining lightly but otherwise no sign of what was about to come. Out of nowhere we got hit by a 60+ knot (in our estimate) gust that lasted about 5 seconds (it felt like 30) and put the boat right on its side. I almost fell out of the cockpit and I remember looking out over the water and seeing the mast about 5 feet off the surface. The boat bobbed back up, and then before we had time to react we were hit by another gust, although this one not quite as strong, maybe around 40 knots.


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## captbillc

theartfuldodger. that is a great story you shared with us! in 1984 on the sheila yeates ( 50ft on deck topsail ketch) coming from the parade of sail in halifax through the straights of canso heading west. wind was NW at 40 and building.we turned around and went back through the locks with some difficulty. there was a square rigger in the harbor dragging anchor with engines full ahead. we passed a canadian CG coming to help them. as we went east to get behind a hill on the north side to anchor. the wind tore tin roofs off buildings in the area


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## smackdaddy

Holy crap! How did I ever miss this thread???? Oh - it was out before I became a member of Sailnet.

sgk, if you're still around - I'm stealin' this for BFS. It's way too good. Awesome work, dude. Who says Cruisers can't throw down?


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## Bene505

Smack,

Thanks for resurrecting this thread, otherwise I would have missed it. Just got caught up and I'm wishing for more.

Any other knockdown stories out there?

Regards


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## tommays

Well

On J24s with the old style fathead chute and the heavy air in Greenport i lost count of how many times we submerged the windex 


Now in Northport with the new style chute were they took all the area out of the head and there is so much less wind most of the time just some mild broachs


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## smackdaddy

And let's not forget Sway's and TJ's debacle on the Great Lakes. Fine sailing that!


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## CharlieCobra

I had another but it was in a Venture 21 so it don't really count.


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## Bene505

Why wouldn't your Venture 21 count? I was thinking about relating my Victory 21 spinnaker broach.


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## CharlieCobra

Cause it's something you expect in a boat like the V-21. It's light, a bit tender, has a swing keel and while more stable than a daggerboard dinghy, it's still fairly easy to knockdown. Then again, when it's your first knockdown ever, I reckon it's scary enough.


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## bigcj39

Got knocked down in a creek about 100 ft from 3 shores.Was in front of Tides Inn in Carters Creek off Chesapeake Bay in my Hunter 34.I saw a cloud coming up behind me and turned around and headed for a pole to tie up to.Well did not make the pole by about 30 ft and then it hit.No sails up just motoring.Hail,rain and wind could not see 2 feet.Before its over we were blown about 400 ft and into grass.I look up and there is a house about 30 ft from me.Well had to call Boat US and get towed out.Bill was over 1k.Glad I had insurance.


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## NICHOLSON58

I raced a Heritage One-Ton for 18 years on Lake Erie out of Cleveland. With an 8-man crew we can usually avoid the time lost due to knock down. The only part of a knock down we 'feared' was when it might happen to another boat to leeward. The knock down is always followed by a round-up into a hapless windward boat. We once did a jibe-broach with the main prevented, and a kite and blooper up in 35 knots of wind. the mast was pinned to the water at the lower spreaders until we got rid of the preventer. I rate it as exciting but no big deal. We were always prepared to race. Keep away from things that move; always use a proper fairlead; wear floatation. We also used double sheets and guys with a puller string for take-down of the kite. You can use the lazy guy as a chicken sheet to stabilize the kite if you start the death rolls. Use the lazy guy it to choke down the kite and stall the top of the spinnaker. The load drops dramatically and you can recover quickly when things settle.


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## theartfuldodger

This thread has been around a for a couple of years now, had never thought sharing my experience would generate such interest. I've been sailing now for 5 years, and look back on that experience and have come to realize that was when I kind of graduated from trying to learn how to sail and what to expect, to sailing and realizing every moment is different and that I deal with it as it comes. I'm thankful for the experience as it also has made me respect the sea and her personalities. Being here on the East coast of Newfoundland these past almost three years, where the sea and weather change in munites has helped as well.


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## smackdaddy

Dodger - this thread's a classic. Great stuff.


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## CalEnron

My Brother and I experienced a knockdown of our Cal 29 whist sailing from Woods Hole Ma to Nantucket. We were reefed at the second when we left Woods Hole, and when we cleared the lee into the Sound we realized we had made a mistake. The wind was blowing hard 20k with 6-8ft seas and building. We squirted out into the sound like a bullet close hauled, and I thought we could make Vineyard Haven, about 6 miles. When we were about 2 miles from the Vineyard, and relative safety, my brother clambered below to grab something, about the time he was clearing the hatch we were hit by a gust of 40+ knots. We stuck the spreaders in the water, and my bro was pinned to the windows. This scared us bad enough to drop the main, and sail the rest of the way in on the jib and motor.


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## NICHOLSON58

Depends on your boat but its usually better results to loose the jib and leave the main up - possibly reefed. The helm can more easily be overpowered by the jib alone.


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## CalEnron

That sounds good, and we'll experiment with it for sure. The only experiece we'd had like this was in a 23' seafarer, and we found that the seafarer sailed easier with just a storm jib when the wind got nasty..Since this incident we've always started with less sail on a windy day and then increased the sail area if we felt comfortable.


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## sailingdog

NICHOLSON58 said:


> Depends on your boat but its usually better results to loose the jib and leave the main up - possibly reefed. The helm can more easily be overpowered by the jib alone.


I'd also point out that leaving just the jib up will result in lee helm generally, and if you fall of... you're done.


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## SpcAlan1

That is why I will NEVER leave Lake Lanier for sailing..
40 ft waves? 
I get scared of 2 feet waves...

40 ft waves? My Catalina 25's mast isn't even 25 feet tall.. yikes.


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## SpcAlan1

No comments huh?

I get thrown around 'riding' the waves back to the marina... very scary..


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## smackdaddy

So what's the story dude!?!?


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## NICHOLSON58

We sailed in the Chicago Mac in 1981 - the year Dennis C admitted it to be a humbling experience. We were on a Heritage One-Ton with a 58 foot mast. There was a fleet-mate a couple of wave crests to our stbd. On the troughs, we could not see his mast. Winds were 70 knots for over 7 hours and waves were mamoth. Really glad when we docked in Mackinaw.


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## SpcAlan1

smackdaddy said:


> So what's the story dude!?!?


All I am saying is.. how to you sail a 25ft boat with 40ft waves?
:hothead


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## smackdaddy

SpcAlan1 said:


> All I am saying is.. how to you sail a 25ft boat with 40ft waves?
> :hothead


Oh, I see. I personally don't have a clue how you do it. But it seems that its not easy.

Go to the *BFS Thread* and read the story about Skip Allen and Wildflower.

He was in a Wylie 27 in some really nasty stuff - with waves up to 35'. And he ended up calling for rescue and scuttled the boat. It's a great story.

Then you've got johnshasteen who has been in a couple of big storms in the gulf in his Bristol 30 and come through okay.

Also take a look at the Heavy Weather Sailing thread in Seamanship. It's got GREAT info from a lot of great salts on how to weather the nasty stuff.

PS - Your head's on fire.


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## SpcAlan1

I get scared with 2 foot drops on the lake with my Catalina 25.
Even worse is the ride back home cutting across huge waves instead of just rolling down them. 
Again, I am new to sailing and maybe that is normal.
I have yet to 'have to' reef my main, but again I wouldn't know to anyways.. haha

P.S - I know.. haha


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## smackdaddy

Do you have reefing cringles in your main?

Take a look at those threads I mentioned. There's a lot to learn in there. And for the other stuff, you'll find all the help you need on this site. So keep bangin' away.

I have a C27 on a lake - so I feel your pain.


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## SpcAlan1

yes.. my mail sail has 3 reef points in it.

I have yet had to ( or thought I should ) use them yet.
I suppose you just use rope to lower the sail area?

Maybe next time there are 'too much' wind.. I will go out and get comfortable with more wind and waves... it is that time of the year..

P.S. - here he is again... :hothead


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## smackdaddy

SpcAlan1 said:


> Maybe next time there are 'too much' wind.. I will go out and get comfortable with more wind and waves... it is that time of the year..
> 
> P.S. - here he is again... :hothead


Now that's a good plan! So far, I've been out in winds up to 40 knots on our lake, and that was pretty scary, even with a double reefed main (I have jiffy reefing). Up to 30 or so has been great, but over 35 I get nervous and just motor.

Being on a lake is great because you can push it in bigger winds without worrying about the waves. So it's a great way to learn to handle the boat in heavier stuff while mitigating the risk. But I'm sure I'm going to soil my foulies when I see actual big waves.

PS - For "Mr. Anger Management"...








:hothead


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## blt2ski

Alan,

Do as mentioned above, start with a small/er amount of sail on those windy days. "HAVE" a plan as to what you will do IF the wind is stronger than you thought, and what you would do IF you need to reduce farther. 

You might find as mentioned above too, that a smaller jib works best/better, then again, also as mentioned, a main alone might be better. If you find your self preferably on purpose out in 30-40 knot winds, have the motor ready, an extra person/crew if you race, play with different sail combo's to get the best handling for your rig.

One night last summer, the winds were in the upper 20's with gusts into the low 30's, we pulled out a storm jib and used it with single, and no reefs to see how my boat did vs using a 110 and a single or double reef, or 110 alone. Then while playing out there, think about the worst thing that might happen, ie knockdown or equal, and plan for it, hopefully it will not happen with prudence on your part. Then again, I could go back to the mid 70's as a dripping wet 110 lb teen racing lasers, get to the first mark in 3-5th place, hear "STARBOARD" of course about that time a gust hits, over I go, then 10 min later I am in "last" place!:hothead:hothead:hothead:hothead smacky, can you take care of the firery tops to my head?

Any way, best thing Allan, go out and play, and see how things go, if they do not go right, come back, think.......OUCH......note to self, no thinking, hurts brain cell........anyway, stew over it, and figure out what you/crew could have done better etc.

marty


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## smackdaddy

blt2ski said:


> :hothead:hothead:hothead:hothead smacky, can you take care of the firery tops to my head?


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## blt2ski

That feels a bit better......hopefully that is water and not a fuel drop....................BOOOOOOOOM...........................

we interrupt this message to to bring our condolences to the blt2ski family for his most recent blow up...............a moment of silence in his memory!


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## SpcAlan1

Well I have a roller furling so I have had to reduce sail because of gusts.

Something I have tried to work on..

Can someone double check my thoughts

Light Winds - blocks all the way up ( front ) to create a large pocket for wind
Normal Winds - blocks back some - less pocket
Heavy Winds - blocks all the way back - very flat sail.

Is my thought correct?


----------



## blt2ski

Alan,

I am assuming that you are talking about the jib carrs?!?!?!?!

You are correct to a point. Let me go a bit further in the explanation.

Pull you genoa/jib off the furler, take it home or to someplace you can lay it out flat. Find the mid point of the luff, ie the part on the forestay. From there, take a string and go to the clew, ie where the sheets attach. Now take a sharpie and draw a line on your sail where the string is out about 2' or so. Put sail back on furler.

What you want now, is when you are sailing, generally speaking, the sheet line should line up with the sharpie line you drew on the clew of the sail. The yes, lighter winds, a bit more forward. middlish winds, I'll say 8-20 or so, on the line, and heavier, you want the sheet to be back a bit. For my boat, I find the light winds, line up the sheet and sharpie line, 8-15 a bit back, ie 2-4" back for the carr, and over 15 or so, double distance, or about 4-8". Your boat may very well be slightly different.

This is where having line control carrs is really nice, you can micro adjust the carrs for best performance out of you sail. These are also IMHO more important for folks with furlers that cruise. As you furl the genoa in, you need to move the carrs forward. with line control, you pull on a line, carr moves forward, you might need the help of a winch, or loosen the sheet some, then pull, retighten sheet. With pin stops that most cruisers seem to have, you have to go forward on the side deck, pull the bleeping pin, and hope you can slide it forward a foot or so per jib reef. at least it is a foot or so going from a 155, to a 140 to a 130 on my boat! A 110 is about 6'ish feet forward from the 155, ie about 13' IIRc from bow vs 19' for the 155. I have also marked the foot lines on my genoa carr tracks. so I can set them as I change head sails too. You would want to do something similar with a furling sail, 6 wraps the carr is at 13' no wraps 15', 12 wraps 11' or some such amount for "YOUR" boat.

In the pic below, you can see the sharpie line dispite me having a carbon 155. you can also see that on this reach I am on, the carr is a bit back. ut being as I am on a reach into a start line, so be it, the carr is setup for the upwind start. If I was to stay on that course for more than the start sequence, the car would go forward some. Along with letting the main out some too, making it so I had less heel for this pass.










HERE is a link to how I installed my line control carrs.

Hope some of this helps.

marty


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## downeast450

I need a term for the underwater sailing experience my wife and I "enjoyed" three years ago here just off Mount Desert Island, Maine. It has given me a new appreciation for underwater contours as I plan our routes.

We were motoring our 15' Marshall catboat out to Baker Island for a picnic on Storm Beach. It was a warm still July day. The 9.5 Evenrude obm was running smoothly. My wife had the wine and cheese out and we were relaxing, enjoying the warm sun. I had decided to slip between the outcrops of East Bubker's Ledge to look at the seals. There were no ripples on the water just gentle swells, less than 2 ft. high breaking on the shoals on the seaward ends of the two ledges. Our approach from Seal Harbor gave us a clear view of the ledges for 10 minutes and there was no sign of anything unusual. The gut we were motoring through about 6 ft. deep at 1/4 tide and 100 yards wide. Just as we were emerging from the "gut" a huge wave about 10 ft. high rose up in front of us and broke over our bow. I only had time to holler "hold on" and watch green water being parted by our mast about half way up as the breaker landed on us. If we had been 10 yards ahead of where we were hit by the wave it would have flipped us backwards. It filled the boat washing stuff out over the transom. The boat had to have disappeared from view by the looks on the faces of the folks fishing in a small skiff just off the ledges. A second wave about 2/3 the height of the first one followed before we could do anything. The boat was still afloat and the engine continued to run. This happened very qiuckly and I was now worried about what was next. We were at the point of origin of the first wave now and if a third rose up I figured we would be flipped backward. The water was very foamy and the prop was cavatating badly. I wanted to get out of there. The boat was full of water and heavy. There was no third wave.

We got clear of the ledges and used a bucket and our pump to bail. The obm never even shuddered. We emptied the boat, salvaged the rest of the wine and had tied almost everything in so didn't loose anything important over the transom. We did make to Baker Island for our picnic.

The 50 fathom line comes in close to the ledges there and I guess a couple of waves from SSE who knows where "rogues"? hit the ledges at the moment we were passing over the edge. Whew! I had water in my ear for two days because I turned my head sideways when the first one hit. We were lucky!

I now look at those undersea contours with a bit more interest as I plan our routes in the little boat. It wasn't a knock down. It was a swamping I guess?

Marshall has a very capable little boat in their Sandpiper.

George


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## Faster

downeast450 said:


> I need a term for the underwater sailing experience my wife and I "enjoyed" three years ago here just off Mount Desert Island, Maine.....


How big was the tide change? Large tide changes and bottom contours can combine to create random standing waves and whirlpools - we had a similar experience years ago off Trial Is near Victoria, and also outside Porlier pass when we transited early at the tail end of a big flood.


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## downeast450

Hi Faster,

Our normal tide at this point along the Maine coast is about 10 feet. There was no unusual tidal fluctuation then. I have certainly seen some huge waves here, much bigger than the two we encountered but only when a hurricane is moving up the coast and they are never isolated like these two were.

Things were "flat calm" and two waves appeared. It was bad luck that we were were we were but good luck that we were not a little farther out over the ledge when the first wave rose up. My first thoughts were that it was caused by the wake from a ship that got funneled into the ledges by the underwater contours. The 50 fathom line does converge just off the the ledges. The contours form a general 90 degree corner at the ledges with the sides of the angle extending East and South.

Waves are curious. Paying attention to the underwater contours has become standard for me now. We do have many serious tidal rips along our coast. Some are marked on the charts and should be taken very seriously especially when wind and tides are contrary. "The Old Sow" is a huge whirlpool at the entrance of Passamaquoddy bay and I have been through it many times. I have also been through the "gut" at East Bunker Ledge many times and never have seen that wave action before or since.

It made for an interesting day! That little boat is amazing.

George


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## marujosortudo

The ocean always has a surprise waiting for you. Don't know if you heard about these rogue waves last year in Boothbay Harbor (I wasn't there):

Rogue Wave Swamps Maine Harbor | Transworld Surf


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## downeast450

Thanks for the reference to the Boothbay waves. I can imagine that the currents we have here create all kinds of eddies and counter currents that can spin off the main flow the way a tiny whirlpool does in the brook behind the house only on a vastly different scale. It also makes sense that the water column experiences these kinds of currents at different levels, too. If something like that sweeps by the seafloor structure at 50 fathoms off Boothbay Harbor and South Port, the energy could get re-directed up into those parallel canyons. It does make it a challenge to be ready. My plan is to stay fit enough to hang on! Ha!

George


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## csaintg

I have heard a lot of people say they float a lifeline behind the boat. Is this a serious safety procedure, or just a last ditch effort in case you find yourself in the water? Has anyone actually been saved by this? And what are the odds that you will actually be anywhere near this line if you happen to find yourself overboard?


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## CharlieCobra

csaintg said:


> I have heard a lot of people say they float a lifeline behind the boat. Is this a serious safety procedure, or just a last ditch effort in case you find yourself in the water? Has anyone actually been saved by this? And what are the odds that you will actually be anywhere near this line if you happen to find yourself overboard?


A good way to drown at anything over three knots.


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## smackdaddy

Caldwell talked about it in "Desparate Voyage" - saying that when he actually finally did go over and swam to the line it was so slippery with gunk he could barely hang onto it.

I also read a story about a single-hander that disappeared in the last year or so. He went over and grabbed the fishing line he was trolling. The hook came along and set in his hand and he was able to reel himself back on.

I'm thinking tethers are a very cool thing.


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## CharlieCobra

Uh huh, as long as ya remember to hook on....


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## sww914

At least you save the rest of the wine. Could have been worse with no wine.


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## PCP

Great thread…my small contribution:

Some years ago, on an August night, I was on passage from Cartagena (Spain) to Palma de Maiorca, me and my 16 year-old-daughter, on my 36ft boat. We were about 16 miles off Palma when my daughter joined me on the cockpit. It was her turn to pick the wheel, but as a huge thunder storm was striking far away, on the Spanish mainland and as she was a little bit scared, I stayed with her. 

The wind started to pick up. We were motor sailing with full main 20º off the head wind. The wind went slowly from 20kt to 30kt and I put, the second and later, as a precaution, the third reef (it makes the sail area really small. I use it as a storm sail, up to 45kts of wind). 

Then I saw the “thing” on the radar. It was a huge black area…and it was coming fast. I told my daughter to go inside and to close the boat. Some minutes later I was hit by pieces of ice almost the size of golf balls. It was impossible to stay at the wheel. I put the autopilot on and took shelter under the spray hood and then the wind came in a big blast. As a precaution my hands were on the stoppers, and I immediately let go the boom and the main halyard, to no avail. The boat laid immediately on its side, the boom in the water and the mast touching it. And it stayed that way for I don´t know how long. A lot it seemed to me. Probably two or three minutes, till the blasting wind disappeared, to return to 35k. At that moment the boat righted itself up without any difficulty and I was surrounded by strange waves that seemed to come from all sides.

I was at the wheel but I didn´t know where to steer the boat. The sea was not making any sense and I remember to see some waves racing at fantastic speed, like strange animals speeding on the water. Luckily I was not caught by any of those.

Alf an hour later, everything was “normal” again and I arrived at Palma, at sunrise, as expected. My sail was ripped off from the mast and my banner reduced to shreds.

In Palma everything was normal, no storm had passed there. 

It took a lot of persuasion and several experienced sailors to convince my daughter that this was not a “normal” situation. But with the changes on the climate, the truth is that a lot of these strange and violent phenomena are happening on the Med.


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## smackdaddy

PCP - If you don't mind, I'll be adding that to the BFS thread. Great story. Does she still sail? And are you still on the Med?


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## PCP

Thanks.

Yes, Joana (my daughter) still sails with me . She is now 21 and as you know it is difficult to enjoy the company of our children at that age. I have to thank the boat because both my children love so much cruising with the family that two years ago, between them, they made a promise that, no matter what, they would take 15 days to sail together with us.

Yes, I still sail on the Mediterranean. I have cruised the Spanish and Portuguese Atlantic Coast and I am now exploring the Med. I have cruised on the Spanish Med coast, the Balearic Islands, Corsica, Sardinia, Elba and the Tuscany islands and part of the Tyrrhenian Italian coast.

I have sold my boat this year, at the end of season, in Italy. 

I am between boats. Next year, while I save money for a better boat, I will probably charter a boat in Turkey.

Regards

Paulo


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## NICHOLSON58

What you experienced was the infamous Mistral winds. They can race out of the mountains at almost any inconvenient & unpredictable time. They have kicked sailors hind ends for as long as there has been sailing on the Med. (Greek myths & angry sea gods etc.) Certain times of the year are well known to be worse.


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## PCP

NICHOLSON58 said:


> What you experienced was the infamous Mistral winds. They can race out of the mountains at almost any inconvenient & unpredictable time. They have kicked sailors hind ends for as long as there has been sailing on the Med. (Greek myths & angry sea gods etc.) Certain times of the year are well known to be worse.


No, I know the Mistral. On one or two occasion I had sailed with it (force 7 to 9). 

No this was a very localized phenomena and a much stronger one. In the radar appeared as a large round black space. Probably a micro burst or more probably a tornado. That would explain the waves coming from all directions. There´s now a lot of tornados in summer storms, on the Med.

If it was the Mistral, it would have blown also in Palma (18 miles away). Besides the Mistral doesn't blow very hard on Mallorca. It blows harder on the North of Minorca and all the way to Corsica.

regards

Paulo


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## halergur

Hope to see you in Turkey.


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## PCP

halergur said:


> Hope to see you in Turkey.


~

I am between boats. I have sold mine and not yet bought another so I will charter this summer. I have booked a boat on Dusseldorf boat show (a brand new Dufour 425) and I was very undecided between Marmaris (Turkey) and Croatia. I have chosen Croatia because the flights to Turkey were expensive, and because to Croatia I can go by car and enjoy Provence (I love the food and the ambiance) and Italy as well as having a look at Slovenia wilderness.

But someday I will sail on Turkey (I want to) and now I know to whom I can ask for advice. . Thanks.

Regards

Paulo


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## whroeder

I would guess you were caught in a microburst. Same thing that takes down airlines.


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## halergur

Hi Paulo,
My boat will be based in Marmaris. Since this is going to be my first boat, this year I will be around close neighborhood. But I am dreaming of a longer cruise which includes Croatian coast.
Happy sailing,
Halil


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## oldironnut

Just remember, what ever don't kills ya makes ya tougher-or smarter.


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## doslocos

I have heard it said that anyone with any time on the Ocean has experienced a knockdown. I am not quite sure that is true but I can relay my experiences. "Tonic" you might want to read what I relay here, and you so far have been quite fortunate. I was transiting from Roatan Honduras to The Flats at Cristobal in Panama. As the trades are a constant 15 knots coming from the East going West and you are trying to go the opposite, this transit is rather difficult. Columbus spent 3 months attempting the same trip and when finally rounging the tip of Honduras he named the cape there, Cabo a Gracious De Dios. Roughly translated, thank God cape. The way to make this transit is to wait for a winter storm front to pass by and then run as fast as you can East following the front. It is a cold, wet, miserable trip. What happens is the winds shift from North East to North West and thus you are almost on a broad reach. My trip went as well as could be expected until I rounded Cabo a Gracious De Dios. The wind then decided to also round around and now I was on a broad reach all the way south to Panama with shore on one side, Reef on the other side and waves on my Port quarter. I took two knock downs by waves taller than my mast. I lost several pieces of equipment including my tri light which was some 38' above the deck. As I limped into the flats the local net came up and the weather man apologized for not reporting a major storm in the Western Caribbean over the past two days. He advised not transiting but staying put. You can imagine my response. It had a reference to Sherlock in it. As for preparation, I never went off shore with my hatched not battened and the hatch boards in place. I had a lock on my companion way hatch so it would not open unintentionally. Everything inside was stowed except what I needed for the transit at hand. I had two GPS's. One deck mounted inside the boat and one hand held outside the boat. I always checked one against the other and in the case of a discrepancy I referred to paper chart. I also have some 30 years of navigation skills thus have developed that inborn sense of long exposure and skill. Repairs to my boat took approximately 1 week. I also always wore a life vest with harness which was attached by tether to hard points in the cockpit. The Life vest I chose was an inflatable (manual). I choose a manual inflatable as I always wondered if an automatic might go off by itself at just the wrong moment. I found others to be to bulky and in and of themselves dangerous. I single handed a 30' boat with 6 berths thus I carried 6 kapok life jackets which were always within reach. I also had a hard dodger which slowed the boat because of wind resistance but kept me from getting washed overboard several times. Could I have kept from being knocked down? Probably not. Was I prepared? Yes.


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## smackdaddy

Hey dos - welcome to SN dude. Great story.

I hope you don't mind if I steal it for the BFS thread.

(PS - We spent some time in Roatan and the mountains of La Ceiba last summer. Beautiful place.)


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## CharlieCobra

Sometimes geography forces you to take whatever Mother Nature is dishing out.


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## Mwozniak

*missed that opportunity so far...*

I almost had my 18 foot cat knocked down once when I was 12. I haven't had one over the next 43 years and 5 boats either. Guess I have been lucky.


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## doslocos

Keep sailing and yes you are lucky. My knockdowns occured during blue water crossings.


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## FlyNavy

I grew up with Hobie Cats on Lake Erie. If you weren't soaking wet and righting the boat at least three times per run, the wind just wasn't cooperating. I've been knocked down from all directions, bows first, port and starboard and even bows up knocked over on our backs. Also had both hulls totally submerged with the water is up to your neck but the boat is still moving forward. Seen water crashing over the deck on an Aircraft Carrier too.
Now I'm older...much ... and sail a mono hull on a small lake with tiny waves... miss the excitement but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to deal with what I used to.


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## Faster

We've broached several times in 20+ years of racing, but the most memorable "knockdown" was this one - and it proved to be a pivotal moment on our then-young son's sailing life.

We were racing a Martin 242 - a high powered lightweight capable of planing into the teens - in upper Howe Sound, a coastal fiord in southern BC blessed with daily breezes into the 20s and flat water.. great conditions. This particular regatta was a windy one, with peaks to 25-30 knots and more-than-usually affected geographical shifts. We had done a couple of laps and had just rounded for the final run. I called for the spinnaker, and was immediately challenged by my wife and her friend.. but the competition was getting away and I overrode them. 

Half way through the hoist, we were hit with a strong gust abeam and the boat layed over on her side. It was sudden and unexpected, and as a result we promtply dumped two ladies in the ocean. Our son and his buddy (both about 10 yrs old) had been hanging onto the stern pulpit and fortunately managed to hang on throughout this longish moment.

Aside from the issue of having two people in the water, the boat now lay (fortunately stopped) with about 5 feet of the mast underwater, the boat floating on her beam ends and the keel pointing above horizontal. My buddy grabbed our wives quickly and deposited them back "in" the cockpit by which time I'm sitting on the topsides paint trying to figure out why we're still layed over and haven't 'self righted'. 

It soon became clear that the half-raised spinnaker had 'filled' underwater and was preventing the boat for rolling upright. "Blow the halyard" says I, and the boat finally stood up straight (rather rapidly).. at this point, the girls are truly "in" the cockpit, the spinnaker had stuck itself through the shrouds during it's submerged efforts, and when the boat came up the weight of the water in the kite tore off the spreader on that side. 

Busily squaring away, dropping the main, and trying to recover the sodden kite,(and keep the rig up) no one on the stellar crew noticed that the guy who had been 'sitting on the topside paint' (me!) was, as a result of the sudden righting, now doing a pretty good imitation of the old "kilroy was here" graffitti, hanging over the side with a death grip on the toe rail.

In the end the errant 'skipper' was recovered as well, the rig secured and we returned to the club without further damage.

As to the pivotal role this played for our son, as a result of my disregarding the ladies' objections to flying the chute they pretty much refused to race with us after that. Our son and his friend (our boat partners' son) replaced the women at 10 years of age and sailed/raced with us throughout their teen years. As many of you may remember, he is a boat owner and avid racer himself now, no doubt at least in part due to that particular episode.....


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## TimofBlindSquirrel

A knockdown happend to me once on Lake Superior on my C&C 36. It was a beautiful sunny day and was blowing about 15 all day. I could see a puff of wind coming across the water but it looked the same as all the other puffs we had that day. No big deal, right?

The wind hit us while we were on a beam reach, port side. The gust had to be in the 30+ range. We were sailing with a 105 and main and the wind just laid us flat over on the starboard rail and held us there. The spreaders were about 4 feet from the water. My friend Fred, who is 6"8", was holding on to the port primary winch and his feet were in the water. I was standing on the starboard cockpit coaming and hanging onto the wheel and backstay.

We stay in this position for about 10 seconds, but it felt like an enternity. 
We eventually came up and there was very little damage. I saw another gust coming so turned to starboard and let the wind push us. The second gust was not quite as strong, but I figured if I am going to lose the rig, let it fall forward, away from the people.

The entire ordeal last less then 15 minutes. After it was over there was barely enough wind to sail, so we motored 5 miles back to the marina. When we came in we were the only boat without major damage. Other boats in the marina that were out had shredded sails, furler drum failures, and one broken boom. Fred's wife had been sleeping below on the port settee and was thrown into the saloon table. She got a big bruise and the table suffered a bent hinge. We were very lucky.

That's Lake Superior for you.


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## teejayevans

When on a close reach trying to round the Cape Canaveral shoals, I was
already leaning pretty good in 15-20 knots and fell off a wave, lost my 
outboard and some other items in the cockpit in the process, but popped
right back up. So you don't need to be in storm conditions, takes just 1
rouge wave....
Tom


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## doslocos

*knock downs*

Never thought this topic would bring about such excitement. To the lake sailors, my sympathies. I learned to ride the main sheets in order to keep from a knockdown in Wisconsin lakes and on the Great Lakes, all of which I sailed as a much younger and less experienced sailor. On lakes one usually does not cleat the main as you would on the Ocean. The reason is exactly for the reasons ennumerated by our hobbie cat friend. If you do cleat tyhe main you are just asking for a knockdown. I was very surprised that this habbit of holding the main sheet in ones hands is very hard to break. It probably took me two to three years to get brave enough to cleat the main once I started sailing off California shores. The practice of holding the main in ones hands is by the way very tiring and hard on your hands. I remember some very memorable cramps that took days to get rid of. To all good sailing.


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## Bene505

Flying a spinnaker on my 21' Victory "Reba's Liberty". I think it was a day after a hurricane or something because there were still strong winds/maybe gusts about on the South River in Annapolis.

Needless to say, we got heeled wayyy over and started taking water into the not-self-bailing cockpit (into the boat). I quickly released everything that was spinnaker-related, which worked. Afterward, we had a spinnaker streaming from the top of the mast like a flag on a long line. Got that down by throwing a line over it and hauling it down.

Regards,
Brad


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## carl762

Wow. The most frightening and enlightening thread I've read thus far on the board.


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## Readyrod

*Knock downs*

Take a look at this website they got slammed a couple of times Once off Oregon Calif and again In Australia it's in the log pages Google Ascension at Sea


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## sailingdog

ReadyRod—

Just curious, but you seem to be pushing that website an awful lot—two posts...two mentions... what is your relationship to that site???


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## grmitche

Years of racing on SF Bay I've got plenty of examples - but none more memorable than when I was asked to come help train some newbies on an Olson 30. Masthead kite - 20+ knots near the golden gate and an ebb. We rounded down very hard, spin pole in the water, etc, and the boat jibed. no one hurt but a total yard sale, people hanging on, etc. What was most interesting is that 2 of us with dinghy background thought we might have to get on the keel - we were on our side forever. The Olson floats nicely on her side - water doesn't get within more than 6" of the companionway. I'd say we were on our side, masthead in the water for a good 45 seconds before the main gybed and the boat popped up. Spin had floated up and was sucked over the upper spreader and was draped all over the rig. Took hoisting a guy to clear it all up. 

I'd also say that the J29 and Express 37s both float high enough on their sides to keep water out of the companionways....

If you want some real fun, pitchpole an International 14 at full speed...


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## smackdaddy

Nice! I've always wondered how my C27 would fare on it's side. The companionway looks pretty damn wide at the top. And I'm in the process of looking for a spi for next season, so it could very well happen.

Anyone had their C27 laydown? Did it stay "dry"?


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## Sailormon6

smackdaddy said:


> Nice! I've always wondered how my C27 would fare on it's side. The companionway looks pretty damn wide at the top. And I'm in the process of looking for a spi for next season, so it could very well happen.
> 
> Anyone had their C27 laydown? Did it stay "dry"?


Smacky, I used to have a Catalina 25, and laid it down, numerous times (to see what would happen), until the rudder lifted out of the water. The water didn't come anywhere near the companionway. If I laid it down quickly, a couple of gallons of water poured over the gunwale, just forward of the winch, and, if I laid it down more gradually, no water came over the gunwale. This was on a small, inland lake, which was less choppy than a bigger body of water. The design of the C25 is somewhat similar to the C27.


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## smackdaddy

Cool - thanks for the feedback sailormon.


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## SpcAlan1

I had a Catalina 25, and will never forget my first race.. Of course, I was not the captain.

We were so heeled over, i thought I would have to 'step out' onto the keel ( which I really never knew what they look like ".

Very scary stuff for a noobie. I laughed the entire time from fear and may have wet myself a little. haha.

I have YET to lay 'my' boat like that.


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## St Anna

I had the boat start to broach in the worst possible location, poor conditions as the sun was setting. I had to sail into this location as my prop shaft has problems, causing huge cavitation in the following seas. As it happens, this would have occurred under sail or under motor - we sail, its what we do!

We were sailing into Mooloola River which has a narrowish NW/SE rock wall lined entrance. It was blowing 25-30 from the N and there was a 1.5-2.5m swell, exacerbated by the shallowing at the entrance - almost making it a bar crossing. There was dredging operations at the western wall, narrowing it further.

The sun was setting over my right shoulder causing large shadows. It was difficult to see into the troughs of the seas. So the wind behind was behind,and at the entrance, a swell was standing up on the port quarter. I was watching out for about 15 kayakers and a few paddle board surfers as we approached - not easy in the swell, worse in the failing light.

Right at the entrance, I eased sheets, spilling some air out of the genny in order to time the entrance on the back of a swell, some had been breaking across the entrance. At the right time, I cranked on the genny back on and then I saw 3 more kayakers, just in front, about to paddle across the entrance and right under the bow. They obviously couldnt judge my speed. I eased the genny back a notch to let him pass - I now couldnt compromise boat speed as I was committed.

As my concentration is on these 3, I didnt notice a larger swell which flicked us over to stb and the bow to port. I saw the eastern rock wall approach rather rapidly and fought the wheel. The boat responded well, we recieved a slap of water into the cockpit, drenching the cat. One kayaker had crossed in front was paddling as if his life depended on it. The other 2 stayed away.

So nothing broken or harmed, but a scare for us, the cat and the first kayaker. They have as much right to be there as I do, but its like playing on the freeway for them.


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## trisstan87

Question. In winds sustained 25 knots or more would it be wise to just go ahead and jury rig a drag system to prevent such destabilization from occuring in the first place?
Like shifting drag, toward astern, from one side of the boat to the other with use of a steering bridle attached with rolling hitches to the tow line. 
The further to one side or the other the drag is moved the more effective it is. A car tire could perform this admirably, or even a worthy bucket. Anyway, I was just thinking of ways to AVOID these situations in the first place and wanted to ask if such a concept would work.


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## St Anna

Trisstan.
Yep, very true. A retrieval system is also needed (or a sharp knife)
A drogue/ brake type system is to be used in open water if you are in danger of pitchpoling or if you wish to slow down in order to let the weather pass over (be in it for less time by not running with it). The seas would have to be huge - and the wind.

I had a para-anchor on the previous boat - learnt how to use and retrieve it, but never needed in anger. I had been in 65kn and 4-6m swells and did not need the para anchor at that stage. I had sea room and a desire to head in the general direction I was being shoved.

A friend in the same class/model yacht crossed the Tasman and had the same system as I did. He was really hammered and deployed the para anchor. He cut it before it tore out his samsom post - possibly not enough rode - but the postmortem discussion is academic.

25kn in open water is a good sailing breeze. 

The situation I was describing earlier in this thread was arriving at a narrow entrance harbour, having to turn to get in, allowing the seas to be on the quarter, whilst my attention was momentarily distracted/surprised by some kayakers.

I firmly believe that you can prepare for most things you can think of, but reality is that each situation is novel and requires a decision and you just live with that decision. Know your boat very well and have it working and maintained. In other words get some sea time under your belt.

The more experience you get, the easier the decision is to make and you seem to get 'luckier'. Then you gasbag on SN....


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## smackdaddy

St Anna said:


> I had the boat start to broach in the worst possible location, poor conditions as the sun was setting. I had to sail into this location as my prop shaft has problems, causing huge cavitation in the following seas. As it happens, this would have occurred under sail or under motor - we sail, its what we do!
> 
> We were sailing into Mooloola River which has a narrowish NW/SE rock wall lined entrance. It was blowing 25-30 from the N and there was a 1.5-2.5m swell, exacerbated by the shallowing at the entrance - almost making it a bar crossing. There was dredging operations at the western wall, narrowing it further.
> 
> The sun was setting over my right shoulder causing large shadows. It was difficult to see into the troughs of the seas. So the wind behind was behind,and at the entrance, a swell was standing up on the port quarter. I was watching out for about 15 kayakers and a few paddle board surfers as we approached - not easy in the swell, worse in the failing light.
> 
> Right at the entrance, I eased sheets, spilling some air out of the genny in order to time the entrance on the back of a swell, some had been breaking across the entrance. At the right time, I cranked on the genny back on and then I saw 3 more kayakers, just in front, about to paddle across the entrance and right under the bow. They obviously couldnt judge my speed. I eased the genny back a notch to let him pass - I now couldnt compromise boat speed as I was committed.
> 
> As my concentration is on these 3, I didnt notice a larger swell which flicked us over to stb and the bow to port. I saw the eastern rock wall approach rather rapidly and fought the wheel. The boat responded well, we recieved a slap of water into the cockpit, drenching the cat. One kayaker had crossed in front was paddling as if his life depended on it. The other 2 stayed away.
> 
> So nothing broken or harmed, but a scare for us, the cat and the first kayaker. They have as much right to be there as I do, but its like playing on the freeway for them.


Wow - just saw this ST. Very nice!

Did the cat get all aggro on the yakers?

Tristan - you need to check out the "Heavy Weather Sailing" thread in "Seamanship". GREAT STUFF THAT!


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## CalebD

Let the hard core racers get all aggro with me but...

We had our last PHRF Weds. beer can races yesterday. Forecast was for gusts to 30 mph and when we surveyed the situation from our mooring my racing partner and I decided to throw the first reef in the main since we were shorthanded. We race on the lower Hudson near some 300' tall cliffs that can really make the NW winds fluky. 
The winds were stronger out on the river by the starting line and many boats were getting rounded up by the strong sudden gusts. Our next problem was figuring out how much jib to unfurl so the boat wasn't constantly being knocked down. We ended up using about a 100% of our 150 genny until a few particularly vicious gusts hit us near the cliffs. The gusts seemed to veer through about 90 degrees (from N to W) in a few seconds and we were knocked over such that river water was in our cockpit. We had to reduce the jib further and rounded our upwind mark.
The VHF was crackling with calls to the race committee as other boats abandoned the race. The RC had called for mandatory use of PFD's (life preservers) and several boats were disqualified (DSQ) because they did not comply with the RC's edict. One boat that abandoned the race had wind instruments on board and reported that they were hit with a gust of 38 kts when they got knocked down. They abandoned because they did not have a smaller jib then 140. We reefed and furled and finished in 2nd place and nothing broke. My underwear was wet but otherwise clean. Never had that much water in our cockpit before from going over.


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## St Anna

Hey Caleb, sounds like a great sail. My kinda stuff sans admiral.

We get catabolic? winds (aka bullets) blowing down from cliffs or mountainous hills right onto the catatonic crew (aka me). Is that what was happening?


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## CalebD

St. Anna,
I guess you could call it that but our cliffs and hills are only around 300 - 500' high. 
I've read several books about sailing near Cape Horn and they have called them Katabatic winds or williwaws (sounds more Australian): Katabatic wind - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
winds that roll downhill like, yes, bullets. I never thought of our normally fairly placid Hudson River as a dangerous sailing area like the Straits of Magellan but when the wind pipes up the hills and cliffs do seem to fire some 'bullets' of wind that had me in a pretty catatonic state. It is all about the shape of the land masses and the relatively narrow river (3 miles wide) that makes me usually refer to the winds as 'fluky'. 
What was most disconcerting about yesterdays race was the differential between the gusts at over 30 knots and the 15 knot prevailing wind and the directional shifts, even within a single gust, and yes, of course you could see them approaching on the waters surface if you knew what to look for. The 90 degree shift in direction was a bit of a surprise though. I'm quite happy my underwear ended up with only river water on them.
Normally I would have had an open beverage nearby and would not be wearing a life jacket but I was kind of mesmerized and the beers would have been toppled by our knock downs anyway. Fortunately I had plenty of beer left when we tied up safely back at our mooring. 
Now I know why about half the boats in our fleet dropped out of the race for emotional or equipment reasons. It would be fine one minute and then it was over on your ear as the next gust pushed through. It would have been really difficult to shake out and put in a reef every few minutes much less letting the furled jib out and taking it in as conditions required. Most blue blooded racers scorn the idea of reefing their sails as it is against their credo of 'as fast as possible' and 'man up and take it' (MTFU) but as a shorthanded crew we had to choose an option that would allow us to finish without getting into worse trouble. The owners manual for my 1967 Tartan 27' even says that it is advisable to reef the main in over 18 knots of wind; so what do you do when the wind goes from 15 - 30+ knots? I don't like trouble so I'll reef even in a race if I feel it is needed.

Hope your feline has dried out and not too aggro after the yakkers got her/him wet! Wind and waves are a sailors dilemma and all the little water craft can get in the way as well.


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## St Anna

Hi Caleb.
It does sound like the wind was funneling down the hills - its the direction change as well as the gusting I guess.

My views are that you are out to enjoy the sail, not have to follow the herd like sheep. Reef if and when you want/need to - It depends on my mood as well - 

If I want a quiet slide, listening to Bob Marley or Ceredwen or whatever - I point the boat to the sea and set sail for the breeze, sit in the cockpit and chill out.

Sometimes I get TOLD to put a reef in the sail by my poor shivering, wet companions. I try to always have fastish, safe yachts and used to love cleaning up the 'racing types' who are all ego and mouth. I have grown up a bit and now let it wash over. 

The cat grew up on the boat - she has used up a few of her 9 lives already (and so did the idiot who tried to get in front of 17tonnes surfing in!)

Until then, it was a great sail - the boat actually sings when she is flying.


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## CalebD

St. Anna,
Agreed. Following the herd is for sheep and cattle and those that listen to mainstream news outlets. Bob Marley always sets a wonderful mood too. 
On our little 27' boat we have no stereo though so it is always about the wind, waves and clouds or "Wind, Sand and Stars" as the St. Exupery novel points out (great book by the way). I never thought we would get our little boat that far over with her 3-1/2 tonnes of weight though with a reef in the main.
My boat always sings to me in her way when she is doing her best with the wind that she has. It is not about wind instruments or GPS or whatever but a visceral feel of the boat laboring to go in one direction or another. What is scary is the higher winds that 50 S latitude or even the north Atlantic can stir up and even local high wind events. 
I am always learning something and so far have been able to report my findings. When I have bitten off more then I can chew I will not report back on my observations/impressions.
Your boat weighs 17 tonnes???
Jebus!


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## St Anna

Caleb. 
Never a truer word was spoken about the feel of a yacht under sail.

Dead weight about 15 t (and me) and cruising/livaboard stuff

cheers


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## Daveinet

As some boats are prone to turn turtle, does anyone make a automatic inflating flotation device for the top of the mast? Seams it could prevent a catastrophe in some boats. 

My First boat was/is a Hobie 14. First time ever sailing it, I was on a puddle of a lake, with high winds, having a great time cruising on one pontoon - learning the joys of owning a Hobie. The best winds were within a few feet of the shore, so I was coming about right on top of the shore. There was a guy taking pictures called out asking how hard it was to right the boat if it flipped? I stated I had no idea as I popped it up and sailed away, just to be hit by a quick large gust and went over. The mast sunk and stuck into the mud below. Needless to say, I had to be towed in. I have since filled the mast with spray foam. This now keeps the boat on its side as the mast floats. I've unintentionally tested it since then.


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## headcaseracer

Knockdowns don't always happen in bad weather. I was sailing in the New River inlet in North Carolina. I was headed back to my Marina after a trip from up near Emerald Isle. I was in a 24' Neptune with a 3' draft. Winds were 15 knots and fairly steady. I had full sail up cruising along at about 5 knots boat speed. There are a couple places where there are points of land sticking out about 100 yards. I'd been in and out of that inlet probably 50 times and never had trouble. However, on this day, I passed one of the points and the wind gusted and knocked me fully down. The main started to scoop water, I popped it loose and the boat instantly righted itself giving me and the young lady I was with a shower. Other than letting the main loose, we both were hanging on to the lifelines as tightly as we could. We were not strapped in but did have our sailing life jackets on. The total time from up to down to back up-maybe 10 seconds. It happens fast. Up to down-1 or 2 seconds, then I grabbed the main line and let it loose and she just came right back up. 

Everything that was loose inside was on the port side of the boat. There was no damage to any stuff inside. No water got into the cabin, but a little did get into the cockpit. I'm unsure whether this is because of laying on it's side or from the main and jib throwing all the water on us once she righted. You don't really have a lot of time to take a look around when you're on your side. 

It was definitely a learning experience, but not one I'm eager to try again. Like Tonic, I think the seasoned sailor comment is a little goofy. I sailed every single day when I lived in North Carolina. I experienced a lot and would consider myself seasoned, but I could have gone all my lifetime without this experience.


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## headcaseracer

*Knock down in the Atlantic*

Knockdowns don't always happen in bad weather. I was sailing in the New River inlet in North Carolina. I was headed back to my Marina after a trip from up near Emerald Isle. I was in a 24' Neptune with a 3' draft. Winds were 15 knots and fairly steady. I had full sail up cruising along at about 5 knots boat speed. There are a couple places where there are points of land sticking out about 100 yards. I'd been in and out of that inlet probably 50 times and never had trouble. However, on this day, I passed one of the points and the wind gusted and knocked me fully down. The main started to scoop water, I popped it loose and the boat instantly righted itself giving me and the young lady I was with a shower. Other than letting the main loose, we both were hanging on to the lifelines as tightly as we could. We were not strapped in but did have our sailing life jackets on. The total time from up to down to back up-maybe 10 seconds. It happens fast. http://www.sailnet.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif Up to down-1 or 2 seconds, then I grabbed the main line and let it loose and she just came right back up.

Everything that was loose inside was on the port side of the boat. There was no damage to any stuff inside. The hatches were all battened down because on that particular vessel, they get in the way of sails when tacking. No water got into the cabin, but a little did get into the cockpit. I'm unsure whether this is because of laying on it's side or from the main and jib throwing all the water on us once she righted. You don't really have a lot of time to take a look around when you're on your side.

It was definitely a learning experience, but not one I'm eager to try again. Like Tonic, I think the seasoned sailor comment is a little goofy. I sailed every single day when I lived in North Carolina. I experienced a lot and would consider myself seasoned, but I could have gone all my lifetime without this experience.


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## helipilot

Giulietta said:


> Here is my account....
> 
> Back in 1932, I was going around the world for the 5th time that week, in my 152 feet 6 mast triple keel Carbon Iron Kevlar 4 Hull Monohull Trimaran Cat, that time, I was crossing the Horn, in -30 ºF air, when the winds, blowing erratically from the East, at 92 knots and sometimes from the south at 102 knots, ice pellets were the size of Chevrolet cavaliers&#8230;.. in seas that were at least, 78 feet high, and waves that were on top of each other, yep, that is how near they were in frequency, took me for a small ride...the sea was black, but the skies were blue&#8230;the clouds&#8230;were not there&#8230;..
> 
> That morning, after not sleeping for 200 days in a row, I brushed my teeth with haemorrhoid cream, and inserted visine in my butt, wearing nothing but a T-shirt a pair of flip flops and a wooden glove, so I was ready for the Horn&#8230;.one more time&#8230;.
> 
> I had crossed a tanker that was almost sinking and 5 life rafts form others that were attempting the impossible&#8230;but not me&#8230;.I pushed forward&#8230;.there I went&#8230;the cries of people saying "don't go!!!!!"&#8230;."don't go!!!!!"&#8230;I ignore them&#8230;.after all I needed something to tell to the folks at sailnet&#8230;.
> 
> At one instance, I was doing 45 knots boat over water speed, which was approximately 120 knots over the ground, when suddenly, my Starboard shrouds were immersed by a wave coming from Port side....that was not a knock down or a broach&#8230;no Sir&#8230;that was a "Knocroach"&#8230;it's not having the rail in the water&#8230;.it's not having the shrouds wet&#8230;.that was the real deal&#8230;.I knew my time was coming&#8230;..my mast pointed straight down to the sea bed&#8230;.the highest mast hit the coral banks 5 times, banging up and down, waking up a gigantic octopus that rolled his 10 legs (yes the famous Horn 10 legger octopus, a vicious killer)&#8230;..I realized the disarray in my socks drawer would take me a good 3 months to sort out&#8230;.
> 
> The tool kit open and 200 screws were spilled on my boat's floor&#8230;.my paper plates, that I keep for MOB situations, broke in small pieces, due to the impact&#8230;..
> 
> Suddeenly, thru the thru hull huçll that I had left open, due to my own fault, I saw day light&#8230;..I managed to push my way thru the 200 screws, and the socks&#8230;and made it to the light&#8230;.I put my mouth in the hole and took a fresh breath of air&#8230;.after all I was under water for almost 25 minutes now&#8230;.my lungs were exploding&#8230;.
> 
> Suddenly, at almost the speed of sound&#8230;my keel that had retracted, when the boat was upside down after 5 rolls, miraculously won against the gravity and, went up into the sky&#8230;the boat straightened it self&#8230;&#8230;
> 
> I could see all gear was on deck, including my dinghy sea ray 200 HP tender, that I had forgotten to tie&#8230;.I was scared, afraid, but luckily only 3 of my boxer shorts were missing&#8230;I had washed them the day before, as I left South Africa, and left them to die in my lazy back mast furling lines&#8230;
> 
> Suddenly &#8230;.
> 
> My mast hit the water again, this time rolling over the bow&#8230;.I saw the wave behind me&#8230;It was so big it dried the sea bed&#8230;., the hawk that had nested on the top of hit, went down, at least 300 feet under water....and the octopus ate it&#8230;.bastard&#8230;
> 
> I was knocked down...my boat spun 4 times around the boa&#8230;.the ropes were tangled, the shrouds collapsed, the sheets messed up, looked like a fisherman's nest...in one occasion 3 tuna were caught in my sheets........I was holding tight to the tiller, that I use to row my boat&#8230;I had carved my nails in the wood&#8230;my legs hurt from the force&#8230;.I held for dear life, so I stopped thinking for a while, decided to majke some bacon and a toast, I only had time to put butter one side....when I was eating it half way, another wave came from the bow...it washed me over...I has thrown out of my boat, my life came in front of my eyes, all the while I was hearing a holiwoodesque song...I am sure it was Celine Dion singing Titanic music....
> 
> Suddenly, a whale comes by me, and kicks me....I was back on my boat, all this time, I managed to get only my T-shirt wet....
> 
> I kept rolling and getting knocked down and broached 32 times more that morning&#8230;.finally all has an end&#8230;and the winds bçlew a nice 60 knots 4 hours later, for only 50 minutes&#8230;so I hoisted all sails, and retured home&#8230;.
> 
> That was scary&#8230;I have another story that is much worse than this&#8230;.tell me if want to hear it&#8230;.I don't want people to think I am lying or exaggerating&#8230;&#8230;really&#8230;.
> 
> Does flipping an Optimist count as a broach or knockdown??? My son is very experienced&#8230;.did that many times&#8230;.


that is one of the funniest things i've ever read :laugher


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## "OO"

sounds like a scary experience. Here is a nice link to Yachting Monthly where they test and video different disaster scenarios. I found it interesting and educational.

Crash Test Boat videos | Specials | Yachting Monthly


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## aeventyr60

I had my first knockdown in the Marlbourough Sounds on the South Island of New Zealand a few years back. One minute we were gliding along then boom, a 50 + knot gust came down on us. Full sails up etc. No signs of bad weather, sun shining etc. Broke my lee cloths, filled the cockpit with water etc, a few hairy moments before getting the main sheet loose, this on a 14 ton, full keel cruising boat. Some really fierce katabatic winds in here. My friends told me later that the area we were sailing in is known as "what a mongrel bay". I always expected a knockdown to happen in heavy seas, big winds off shore...you just never know. Another day in the life as an offshore sailor.


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## bobdersegler

Hi one and all,
I'm new here, and have just come accross this thread "Knockdowns", and thought that maybe my experience of an "Eskimo Roll" in the N.Atlantic would fit in.
Sailing in a 30ft, Murena from Bermuda to the Azores. We had 300 miles to go when we got cought in a cross sea and 9Bft, a very angry, frothing white wave (15 ft ) sounding like an express freight train hit us broadside and the world turned upside down. I was underdeck as it happened, the hinged hatch (stupid design ) opened up, the boards were washed into the boat with an awfull lot of cold, green sea water. " Oh ****, and now."
Nothing to do but wait and see. After some minutes I heard the freight train heading down on us once again, it hit us with full force and the world was the right way up, only the mast was now pointing in the wrong direction. To cut along story short, we were picked up by a container ship and taken to Canada.
bobdersegler.To the women of our land and the ships of our sea's, may the latter be well Capt'ned and the first well manned,


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## WaterGod_1

Giulietta - Pardon my being a newbie to sailing, but with your experience, do you think a _real_ bluewater boat would be my best choice for a new boat?


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## chris_gee

Giulietta was taking the mick. He is no longer involved here. He could not anyway advise not knowing you or the circumstances except that your asking suggests the answer is no, almost certainly so as a newbie. There are many threads on choosig a boat to search.


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## Sailormon6

WaterGod_1 said:


> Giulietta - Pardon my being a newbie to sailing, but with your experience, do you think a _real_ bluewater boat would be my best choice for a new boat?


Boats that are designed and built to serve a specific purpose, such as racing or bluewater sailing, are configured so that they serve that particular purpose well, but they wouldn't necessarily serve a newbie well. A bluewater boat is designed to sail in a straight line for many hours or even days, and to sail in strong trade winds. Sometimes they can be difficult to tack, and they can be very frustrating to sail in moderate to light air. A racing boat, by comparison, can be tender, have complex sail shaping mechanisms, and be difficult to sail in stronger winds and choppier seas.

I would recommend a coastal cruiser for a first boat, because it is likely to be more stable than a racer, while being a more lively and responsive performer than a bluewater boat. It's more versatile, and a good compromise. A general purpose boat will be easier to learn on and will be more enjoyable for you. After your skills have developed, you'll be better able to deal with the challenges of a more purpose-built boat.

That is not to say, of course, that you can't learn on a bluewater or racing boat. A general purpose boat will just be easier.


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## WaterGod_1

Chris and Sailormon....sheesh...it was meant as a joke.


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## Capt.aaron

fynbo said:


> I like Halekai36's advise but want to add one:
> 
> Do not place the Desitin next to the toothpaste. I did that when the kids were small, and trust me it just might be worse than a knockdown to grab the wrong one when brushing teeth.


I bring enough dry, clean, boxer brief's and cotton t-shirts to change 5 times a day when I do deliveries. I seriously bring like a back pack full of underwear. I also wipe my self clean with rubbing alcohol constantly. And cornstarch. I'll go to K-mart or someplace and buy bulk packages of white t shirt's. I also have two set's of fowl weather gear, So one is rinsed and drying below while I'm wearing the other. I spent a week in a pair of fowly's once, Never again. 
I've had my spreaders in the water a couple of times in my Soverel 28. Once in the Yucatan Channel in a norther, The other in the Straits of Fla. 20 miles North of Cuba. Scared the bajesus out of me. If I was more experienced at the time, it wouldn't of happened. A lady my wife knew mistook superglue for eye drops one time. I work on a tug boat and once replaced a guy's shampoo with mayonaise.


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## randyrhines

great threads never been in anything like this stuff, 9' waves on lake Huron at night looking for Cape Hurd Channel, scared the heck out of me, eyes glued to my laptop and my compass


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## randyrhines

would like to hear more knock down expirience, as i am moving up to a Allied Princess 36


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## Capt.aaron

randyrhines said:


> great threads never been in anything like this stuff, 9' waves on lake Huron at night looking for Cape Hurd Channel, scared the heck out of me, eyes glued to my laptop and my compass


When in sea's like that, I keep my eye's and ear's glued to the aproaching swell's. I say ear's because, at night, you often can't see them, but you can hear a breaking swell aproaching. I understand you were equally concearned about your position ( the great lakes intimidate me, never been out on them) I keep all ambient light to a min. I've never had a lap top out while steering, but it seem's like it would blind you. I assume your compass has I red light.
The 2 times I've been knocked down, I was, for one reason or another not paying attention to the world around me, for less than a few minuet's. I don't let it happen any more, 3 strikes and your out as they say. Does not the Cape Hurd Channel have an enterance light?


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## randyrhines

*Inexperienced and scared*

My compass does have a red light, there are no beacons or lights on the entrance to the channel just a green and red cans, in the dark of night,
i was watching my position on fugawi on my laptop with Gps locater attached to a ubs port and taking my compass heading off that, on tiller steered Catalina 27 "no autopilot" i found the cans and got in the channel ok, but with out the laptop i never would have found it and ended up on one of the many shoals surrounding the entrance.


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## randyrhines

The laptop also blinded me continually, holding it between my knees with my feet braced on the opposite seat. for hours i was stuck like this 3 hours out and 3 h
ours back, pissing in a cup and throwing it over the side, a lil seasick everything in the boat was on the cabin sole, running bare poles, my lil Yanmar 10 horse inboard diesel, cranked up to 3400 rpm to claw off the Cape Hurd itself as a southwest wind was trying driving me onto the rocks, it was gruelling, swore i would never go out again if God brought me in safe, and kept my promise right up until the next day.
I could see my cooler on the floor it had some beer in it, and as soon as i got in calm water of the channel i quaffed 2 down real quick to settle my stomach and nerves.


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## smackdaddy

WaterGod_1 said:


> Giulietta - Pardon my being a newbie to sailing, but with your experience, do you think a _real_ bluewater boat would be my best choice for a new boat?


Okay - that's funny. Actually, don't EVER ask Giu this question! Were you around here when he was on one of his "old shoe" crusades? I'm telling you, it was an argument you'd never be able to win - because the rules would always change in the middle of the debate! Oh, plus I think he's omniscient.

Heh-heh.

This is a seriously killer thread. It's where I steal most of the best BFS stories. Speaking of...


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## smackdaddy

bobdersegler said:


> Hi one and all,
> I'm new here, and have just come accross this thread "Knockdowns", and thought that maybe my experience of an "Eskimo Roll" in the N.Atlantic would fit in.
> Sailing in a 30ft, Murena from Bermuda to the Azores. We had 300 miles to go when we got cought in a cross sea and 9Bft, a very angry, frothing white wave (15 ft ) sounding like an express freight train hit us broadside and the world turned upside down. I was underdeck as it happened, the hinged hatch (stupid design ) opened up, the boards were washed into the boat with an awfull lot of cold, green sea water. " Oh ****, and now."
> Nothing to do but wait and see. After some minutes I heard the freight train heading down on us once again, it hit us with full force and the world was the right way up, only the mast was now pointing in the wrong direction. To cut along story short, we were picked up by a container ship and taken to Canada.
> bobdersegler.To the women of our land and the ships of our sea's, may the latter be well Capt'ned and the first well manned,


Oh yeah - this one's going into the BFS thread.


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## smackdaddy

randyrhines said:


> would like to hear more knock down expirience, as i am moving up to a Allied Princess 36


You need to check out the BFS thread. Some really great stories in there.


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## Capt.aaron

randyrhines said:


> The laptop also blinded me continually, holding it between my knees with my feet braced on the opposite seat. for hours i was stuck like this 3 hours out and 3 h
> ours back, pissing in a cup and throwing it over the side, a lil seasick everything in the boat was on the cabin sole, running bare poles, my lil Yanmar 10 horse inboard diesel, cranked up to 3400 rpm to claw off the Cape Hurd itself as a southwest wind was trying driving me onto the rocks, it was gruelling, swore i would never go out again if God brought me in safe, and kept my promise right up until the next day.
> I could see my cooler on the floor it had some beer in it, and as soon as i got in calm water of the channel i quaffed 2 down real quick to settle my stomach and nerves.


 I get it. I've used a chartplotter in recient years to get through places at night I would of in the past had to sail around untill first light. Glad you made it in. I've made simular promises and broke them just as quickly. It's funny how even a shook up warm beer will taste so damn good in a situation like that! Yet another story to intimidate me of the Great Lakes!


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## killarney_sailor

*Been a few years since I was up that way*



randyrhines said:


> My compass does have a red light, there are no beacons or lights on the entrance to the channel just a green and red cans, in the dark of night,
> i was watching my position on fugawi on my laptop with Gps locater attached to a ubs port and taking my compass heading off that, on tiller steered Catalina 27 "no autopilot" i found the cans and got in the channel ok, but with out the laptop i never would have found it and ended up on one of the many shoals surrounding the entrance.


Seems to me that there is another channel further north that is lighted? Often times the best way to handle a problem is not to put myself in the situation in the first place. I have gone through Cape Hurd channel a few times and it does get pretty narrow in places and the rocks on either side are quite close and quite hard. I would not (as in never) try to enter such a channel at night only relying on an electronic chart on a laptop. As you say the laptop was bright and killed your night vision and what would happen if you took a wave on top right on top of the laptop when you were checking it?

If I was approaching the top of the Bruce Peninsula in the dark (possibly not avoidable because of the distance from Port Elgin (nice place btw), I would go further north and enter the lighted channel (big ships go that way and have for centuries). If I was in such a situation and there was no alternative channel available I would lay offshore for the night. Waves won't be as bad because the water is deeper. Good reason to learn how to heave-to with your boat. Even better alternative might be to leave Port Elgin nicely before dark and arrive at the top of the peninsula in the morning. Anyway, my thoughts as someone who gets increasingly cautious and careful the older I get - which is why I will be approaching the Cape of Good Hope in the, "there are old sailors and bold sailors, but ..." mode. 

Reading your post made me think of an English sailor we met last year in Suva, Fiji. He tried to enter the channel through the reefs there at night when we was tired (singlehanded). The channel is not too wide but is lit pretty well and very large ships use the harbor. Anyway, he ended up on the reef and tore the keels out of both hulls of his pretty new catamaran. They recovered the boat and he is trying to get the money to repair the damage - been over a year so far.


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## Ninefingers

Hey Killarney,

Bear with me as I am learning. I think I see the channel you are referring to. Only the green marker is lit. Why not the red as well. 

Also, once you spot your entrance do you line yourself up with the white lit markers (10 miles ahead?), or do you just try to pick your way through the remaining unlit markers? Or both?


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## NICHOLSON58

The beter plan might be to drop the hook and wait for dawn if possible. Sometimes it is best to plan your approach to be in daylight. The risk at night is a life-changer if you hit the rocks. Your plotter was OK but was your only input. GPS is unreliable enough that I would not want to trust it to save my butt in the dark in a strange place.


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## randyrhines

*The Great Lakes*

The Great Lakes are worthy of their title and command your respect. It is altogether fitting to call any one of them a sea, for they present the same awesome forces, and to the unwary, They will impose the same harsh penalty for foolishness
My experience was a teacher for sure, and now I am better planned and better prepared, my focus is more settled in distracting circumstances, that are bound to happen if you keep sailing challenging yourself to get better at it.
should sign this , "still dosent know athing"


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## killarney_sailor

*No chart here*



Ninefingers said:


> Hey Killarney,
> 
> Bear with me as I am learning. I think I see the channel you are referring to. Only the green marker is lit. Why not the red as well.
> 
> Also, once you spot your entrance do you line yourself up with the white lit markers (10 miles ahead?), or do you just try to pick your way through the remaining unlit markers? Or both?


I can't check a chart of that area and tell you. On the chart it should say what the range of the various lights is (this is in good conditions but at least you should have some idea when you might see them). If you can see two lights you can take bearings and confirm what the software is saying. Once you know where you are, you can usually find a course to, or near, your destination. Best to err on the side where there is the least problem. (Sorry I don't have chart to give you specifics). In any case, the best advice is to time your arrival for daytime. With a boat of your speed this would suggest an overnighter.


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## randyrhines

Capt.aaron said:


> I get it. I've used a chartplotter in recient years to get through places at night I would of in the past had to sail around untill first light. Glad you made it in. I've made simular promises and broke them just as quickly. It's funny how even a shook up warm beer will taste so damn good in a situation like that! Yet another story to intimidate me of the Great Lakes!


where do you sail?


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## Capt.aaron

randyrhines said:


> where do you sail?


I sail the Fla. key's, Bahama's, Western and Southern Caribbean


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## randyrhines

*Fair winds*

Sounds like a great area to sail!


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## VK540

Capt.aaron said:


> I get it. I've used a chartplotter in recient years to get through places at night I would of in the past had to sail around untill first light. Glad you made it in. I've made simular promises and broke them just as quickly. It's funny how even a shook up warm beer will taste so damn good in a situation like that! Yet another story to intimidate me of the Great Lakes!


Yup I hear you! Had a fun time in the last MacMan race that kinda relates. We got caught at night with a spinnaker up when it got back winded, went out of control, laid us on our side a couple of times in a 35 foot Beneteau and of course the spinnaker halyard wrapped around the forestay at the top of the mast making it impossible to drop. Large waves, no steering control we cut the spinnaker sheet lines and after a 45 minute battle in the pitch black finally got things back to normal. The Captain was soo burnt by the adrenaline rush he imediately crashed for a few hours sleep, with his clothes and life jacket still on in the V-Berth. lots of "hind sight" to what we should do for the next race! I guess I should mention this took place on Lake Huron the week after the two people were killed on the Chicago Mac Race. Yup, I am gaining a lot of respect for the Great Lakes.


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## jpqincny

Congratulations on handling a tough situation well. That whole you're not experienced unless (fill in the blank), a friend of mine is a cop and part of the training for new people is hitting them with a Taser so "they'll know what it's like". His argument is, then why don't you shoot them so they'll know what it's like?


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## oldsalty

Many decades ago on my 1st boat--a 17' daysailer--I and 3 passengers encountered 20' breaking waves a the harbor entrance. I made it through the 1st but was "dead in the water" when the 2nd hit. We did a 360 the hard way which broke both the mast & boom--we were all thrown overboard. The harbor patrol took a heavy hit while trying to help us (the Sargent broke ribs as he was knocked to the bulkhead) The boat was totaled. The dredging of the harbor entrance started the next day.


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## travlin-easy

I guess I'm either very fortunate, or maybe very cautious. I've been caught in some really nasty storms while sailing in Chesapeake Bay during the past 6 years. Some with winds in excess of 50 knots and gusts to 65 got my undivided attention. I only came close to a knockdown once, and that was primarily due to being inattentive with the main sheet. Last fall, I sailed home in the midst of a severe storm, one that lasted three days, 50-knot winds, 6 to 8-foot seas. I was fortunate in that the wind was primarily astern, therefore with half the jib sheeted in that Morgan 33 O.I. went up the bay at speeds to nearly 9 knots. With the Morgan 33 O.I. under me, I'm fairly confident when sailing in some of the worst conditions. The boat is built like a tank, it doesn't point as well as my old 27 Catalina, but at my age, 71, I'm really not in a hurry to get anywhere.

Good thread,

Gary


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## tspooner

So with three reefs in the main and I would assume a storm jib or partially furled genoa there would be minimal water bagged to prevent the boat righting itself when it was ready. But what would have happened if a strong gust knocked down a sloop with a fully hoisted main and a 150 Genoa let out with a thousand gallons of sea water now bagged in the sails? What would be my next step to help right the boat after ensuring the crew was safe? It's all hypothetical but I'm sure it's happened to someone out there.


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## smackdaddy

tspooner said:


> So with three reefs in the main and I would assume a storm jib or partially furled genoa there would be minimal water bagged to prevent the boat righting itself when it was ready. But what would have happened if a strong gust knocked down a sloop with a fully hoisted main and a 150 Genoa let out with a thousand gallons of sea water now bagged in the sails? What would be my next step to help right the boat after ensuring the crew was safe? It's all hypothetical but I'm sure it's happened to someone out there.


Blow the sheets.


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## Faster

We have had some severe knockdown over the years, we sailed for over 20 years in a very windy area. With white sails we've never had an issue with righting the boat once the gust passed or we'd rounded up again.

Once, we were 'pinned' with 4-5 feet of the mast in the water and the boat floating keel past horizontal (luckily flat water and nothing went down the companionway) In this case the partially raised spinnaker 'filled' underwater and, as it turned out, did this when wrapped around a shroud. Once we figured out why the boat wasn't coming up on its own (and retrieving our two wives who'd fallen out of the boat) we blew the spinn halyard. The boat instantly righted itself, but the several hundreds of pounds of water in the spinn in the rig ripped a spreader off. We got the main down smartly and motored home, saving the rest of the rig upright.

But with white sails we've had plenty of 'wipeouts' with no worries other than a lot of water in the cockpit. (btw 2 panicky people with buckets are very efficient bailers!)


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## aeventyr60

So, do the "wives" still sail with you guys?


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## smackdaddy

aeventyr60 said:


> So, do the "wives" still sail with you guys?


My wife actually likes a proper broach. Everything else is boring. That's why she's the Smackmomma.


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## Faster

aeventyr60 said:


> So, do the "wives" still sail with you guys?


Yes they do... but after that they quit racing with us. 

But that was OK, because our 10/11 year old boys started to race with us then and that was one of the best things that could have happened. 20 years later they are still sailing, our son and his family are boat owners too.


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## ferrous

I had a bad knockdown last April at 42 degrees South in the South Atlantic after a successful eastabout rounding of Cape Horn. It was no fun and did about a thousand dollars worth of damage to the boat in just a few seconds. It was the last bad weather I had after a total of nearly five months spent in the Southern Ocean and an eastabout circumnavigation of more than 40,000 miles. Go figure. Neptune didn't want to let me out without kicking my tail a little. Ron Kirkendoll on "Ferrous"


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## smackdaddy

ferrous said:


> I had a bad knockdown last April at 42 degrees South in the South Atlantic after a successful eastabout rounding of Cape Horn. It was no fun and did about a thousand dollars worth of damage to the boat in just a few seconds. It was the last bad weather I had after a total of nearly five months spent in the Southern Ocean and an eastabout circumnavigation of more than 40,000 miles. Go figure. Neptune didn't want to let me out without kicking my tail a little. Ron Kirkendoll on "Ferrous"


Okay - this sounds like a hell of a story. Do you have a write-up of it somewhere?


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## ferrous

No written story. Just got back to St. Mary's, GA two weeks ago after dodging "Rafael" and "Sandy" on passage through the Carribean. I was so homesick after being away from the U.S. for 2 years and 8 months that I took a big chance and sailed back during hurricane season (rounded Grenada and headed North on October 15th). Very bad idea and I was extremely lucky to have gotten only storm force winds and not worse (at least the storms up here were warm and not an icebox like the Southern Ocean in April). Home is the sailor home from the sea. Ron on "Ferrous"


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## smackdaddy

Welcome back. Sounds like you had quite an adventure.


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## CharlieCobra

tspooner said:


> So with three reefs in the main and I would assume a storm jib or partially furled genoa there would be minimal water bagged to prevent the boat righting itself when it was ready. But what would have happened if a strong gust knocked down a sloop with a fully hoisted main and a 150 Genoa let out with a thousand gallons of sea water now bagged in the sails? What would be my next step to help right the boat after ensuring the crew was safe? It's all hypothetical but I'm sure it's happened to someone out there.


It wouldn't happen, not without a lot of help from wave action. As the boat rounded up, the wind would start to spill off of the top of the sail. You'd never get the sails in the water with white sails.


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## captainbri

It is a good lesson, you now know the limits of your boat. If you never crash a race car you will never win a race because your not pushing the limits. experience only makes us better.


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## Rezz

Epic thread. Thanks for having this classic here, guys (and gals)!


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## Daveinet

If you can manage 2 wives, there is no storm you can't handle.

Owning a Hobie, I put foam in the mast, so it would float. It did prevent the boat from turning turtle. I've often wondered about an inflatable bladder that attaches to the mast that would inflate when it hit the water, in the same way a life vest inflates. This would limit how far the boat would tip, and make it much more likely to right. While some felt the rig would not handle it, Ian Farrier was in on the discussion and felt it was a valid idea. I have to think if the primary buoyancy was near where the shrouds attach, the load would likely be less than the initial impact of the mast hitting the water. Most of what you need is to prevent the mast from "digging in" as the boat is pushed leeward. I wonder if that type of design would have helped WingNuts or the 26X that flipped where 2 kids drowned.


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## windward22

Knock down at 42 degrees south did you go around cape Horn?
how many crew on board ? did anyone get injured ? 
you gotta share the story ? how,what where when etc etc..


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## Momjian

Had a knockdown last summer on lake St. Claire while racing single handed on my Hunter 216 couple of hundred yards from the finish. Like many who posted here, it was quick but felt that everything was happening in slow motion. Masthead didn't touch the water but almost skimmed the water. I braced my feet on the vertical edge of the leeward seat and grabbed the windward railing with one hand to make sure I stay on board while steering with the other hand. As it went down, it stopped almost as if someone hit the breaks, I kept thinking "this is not bad" she handled the knock valiantly, a minute later once all the wind spilled out she came back up and proceeded to the finish. This was my first knock down while single handing. Once it was over, I felt alive, excited, and gained considerable trust of my vessel. It became my trusted companion.

Happy sailing...

S. M. Momjian
Grosse Pointe, MI


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## RNovick

It's threads like this that help me remember why I don't quit my job and sail around the world. I've never been in 25 foot seas and can't imagine what that would be look. Thanks for sharing your experiences and knowledge!


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## MarioG

We were knocked down 3 yrs ago on our first coastal sail. So as I tell this, I already know I wasn't being very smart due to very little sailing experiance.

We had just got our Chrysler 26 bought in Norfolk Va and had to sail it to Oriental NC about 190 nm. We set sail 1st of March and the weather seemed like we were going to have a pleasant trip. Not more then 2 hours into the trip and the 9.9 outboard died due to tring to unground another boat. Oh well we had never put a motor on the Chrysler 22 we lake sailed and the wind was with us so we continued on. Took the Virgina cut figuring we wouldn't beable to sail the dismal swamp. Made it to Coinjock before noon after being invited to stay at the Norfolk yacht club (nice group). The dockmaster at the Midway marina had told us that a nor-easter was coming and should be in the area by midnight so did we want a slip? Well the tide and wind was with us and I figured we could make it across the Albermarle sound to the Alligator river because we were already a day behind. It was nice and warm when we started out and hit the Albermarle but didn't last long. The waves might have been 1 to 2 feet with 10k winds, within what might have been an hour the waves got to 4 to 5 foot with 15 to 25k winds. I had the main reefed and tried to turn noth to shore but the ways and wind wouldn't allow it so I had my 1st mate give me the heading for the Alligator river because it was getting hard to see anything past the compass. Then it got worse and the sliders snapped taking out the main so I pulled a small amount of jib tring to keep our heading. While all this is happening I was getting soaked thru and hit by waves comming over the back of the transom and frozen to the bone. as soon I had already lashed my right arm to the hard dodger because it was the only way from sliding around the cockpit. I open the jib the boat turned quick and the boat went over. My poor 1st was trown from one side to the other and said she could see the water thru the port. We recovered quickly and was lucky we had very little on the inside yet so nothing got broken. yelling back and forth was the only way we could communicate she told me she was calling for the Coast Guard to come get her. We were out there for 4 hours before they found us and told us the conditions were 10' waves and 40k sustained 65k gust and even they couldn't head north to Elizabeth city their home port against the wind and waves in the rescue zodiac.
I told the wife that we could sell the boat and go back to lake sailing if she wanted but to my surprise when we found the boat the following afternoon and she jumped aboard ready to continue to trip.


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## Barquito

> I wonder if that type of design would have helped WingNuts or the 26X that flipped where 2 kids drowned.


If I remember correctly, the skipper and crew of WingNuts that died, had been knocked out as the boat went over. Even if the boat came back up, they may have still been unconscious in the water.


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