# Noise pollution in the anchorage



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

My wife and I were sitting in the cockpit hoping to enjoy a lovely starlit evening, however it was just not to be.
We seem to be surrounded by folks with the cheap, noisy windgens. Seriously, there must be half a dozen boats with these noise makers around us. A couple of the cats even have two of the damn noisy things!
OK, I can understand folks wanting to cut down their carbon footprint, but this is absolutely ridiculous. Trading one form of pollution for another just doesn't make any sense to me.
Never mind how awfully loud and irritating it must be on their own boats, but aren't they completely embarrassed that their windgen is making that much noise, and disturbing others?
This racket is worse than the occasional slapping halyard and much worse than an hour or two of a small gas powered generator, because it goes on and on, 24/7.
Why is it that these cruisers are so selfish and uncaring of those around them? Is common courtesy just no longer of any importance to these people?
Or perhaps they are incapable of leaving the hustle and bustle of their past lives behind and they need to spend hundreds of dollars to bring it with them? After all, it's not like they didn't know that a $600 dollar windgen would be a noisy a piece of crap to begin with.
I've come to accept the crowded anchorages, those few who don't care enough about their safety or that of others to light their boat properly at night, but I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive these selfish people for inundating the anchorages with this racket twenty four hours a day, seven days a week.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

capta said:


> This racket is worse than the occasional slapping halyard .


Nothing makes noise that pisses me off like the slapping halyards banging! I've never noticed the wind generator noise in the field over the banging. Maybe it is because the halyards bang just about as much during low wind and rocking as higher, while at higher wind the wind generators seem to just be part of the wind.

But the difference is the slapping halyard people could easily fix the problem with no consequences, while wind generator people can't.


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## VallelyJ (Nov 21, 2008)

Then there are the morons who think we all want to know how much they enjoy their music.
Idea re the wind generators: how about posting negative product reviews? Maybe that will help discourage people from buying them.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I am with capta on this. I always have a look at nearby boats when choosing a spot to anchor. If I spy an Air Marine or Air X wind generator I will find another spot. 

Like many things you can get used to the noise they make but they do pollute the anchorages. Especially in higher winds when they move into blade flutter mode. 

Mind you I am a smug mug with 400w of solar panels.


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

Couple of weeks ago we were at our favorite mooring . Ms.westi loves to sit out at night and look at the stars, it could be cold and windy but there she is sitting and looking . It was a warm calm night so I decided to join her , which she tolerates as long as I don't make any noise . So were sitin' there lookin' at stars when no less than two drones started flying around with LED nav lights flashing and they were buzzin' like a swarm of hornets.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

On my ranking of noise annoyances blasting stereo definitely comes in first. The arrogance and self-centeredness that lets some people force their music on others always astounds and dismays me. If I can hear the words of your music, then it's too damn loud. 

Next I would rank all forms of generators; both wind and gas/diesel. I don't care if it's the main engine, a portable, or a wind gen, they are all annoying if they can be heard more than a couple of boat lengths away. 

Slapping halyards, loud partying voices, roaring dingies ... these are all aggravating as well.

Guess I'm pretty much a noise curmudgeon. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## eldonbest (Oct 6, 2015)

My brother on s/v Andante "stalls" his "Air Marine" wind gen by connecting both outlet leads. No noise, and no damage. I solved my halyard slapping by simply moving them away from the spar to opposing life lines and stanchions.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I guess the people I have been sharing harbors with this fall deserve high praise; good conversation when invited, lots of quite the rest of the time.

Most people are good that way.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Lots of quiet anchorages up here on the coast.Even in the summer when the Yanks ooze north,you can be the only boat in sight. However, down in civilization all these complaints in paradise are valid.


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## bvander66 (Sep 30, 2007)

Noise, lights, dingys, nude people on deck, ugly boats.....experianced all and dont care.
Bad day on water beats good day in office, besides we cruise to get away from condo/nieghbour covenents and rules.
If too annoying I pick up that chunk of metal on bow and move. Also rarely go into crowded anchorages which reduces odds of someone annoying us or visa versa.

Worst case we experianced was a woman yelling on radio and loud hailer at a boat of folks celebrating a birthday. She was nasty, would have preffered loudish music to this cranky lady.


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## TerryBradley (Feb 28, 2006)

I'd just hop in the dinghy, run over and circle their boat while enjoying their music with them! Maybe they'd get the message after ten or fifteen circuits!:boat :


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## bvander66 (Sep 30, 2007)

We like most music and so relax and enjoy the tunes.


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## cthoops (Apr 30, 2012)

Markwesti said:


> Couple of weeks ago we were at our favorite mooring . Ms.westi loves to sit out at night and look at the stars, it could be cold and windy but there she is sitting and looking . It was a warm calm night so I decided to join her , which she tolerates as long as I don't make any noise . So were sitin' there lookin' at stars when no less than two drones started flying around with LED nav lights flashing and they were buzzin' like a swarm of hornets.


I've officially entered the "get off my lawn" brigade when it comes to drones. I have a visceral reaction to them - can't even stand the thought of them. I dread the day when I encounter one in an anchorage. I know I'll be wishing I had a cannon on board so I could blow it to smithereens.

Have I mentioned that I can't stand drones?


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

People who make noise do not care one whit for those of us who value peaceful quiet. Neither on boats or in the rural countryside. Our only solution is to move. Luckily there are thousands of quiet anchorages in the world. Unfortunately for many is that they are half a world away. Move.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

bvander66 said:


> We like most music and so relax and enjoy the tunes.


I was enjoying someones disco tunes in the anchorage at 11 pm once this year so much that I went out to the cockpit and started blowing my air horn to join in instead of trying to sleep.

But they were just a-holes and once they knew I was enjoying it so much they turned it off :devil


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## sailak (Apr 15, 2007)

My wife and I really want to sail south from Alaska and enjoy a warm anchorage but every time I read one of these threads, or others involving the number of boats in the lower 48, I think maybe here is just fine. I mean we do have our problems at anchor. Just this past season I was shooting some photos of a sow and twin cubs, I had noticed them after she huffed at me, when I hear the racket of whales blowing and find a pod of Orca just outside the anchorage blowing and tail-slapping as they enjoyed their evening meal.

Yeah, noise in an anchorage sucks.


PS: Forgot all about having to endure the cry of the eagle pair.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

Noise created by wind generators is normally a trade for power - the more power they produce the more noise they make. We have a low-ish power wind gen (Rutland) that makes very little noise - more of a low-energy whoosh than a howl. I have seats on the aft deck right under the gen and we often sit there with a quiet wine in the evenings. The measure for us is if the wind is strong enough to make the wind gen a nuisance, it's too strong to enjoy a quiet time sitting under it.

IMHO it will be a good day when the average sailor realises (as I have) that solar is better than wind. When we anchor we always strive for a windless environment so the wind gen essentially stops until we're sailing again. When mine packs it in, it goes to Davy Jones' Locker. I'm expanding my solar array to 840 watts. Who needs wind generators?

We're actually quite tolerant of anchorage noise, we don't make much ourselves and as long as other's noise doesn't go on into the deep hours of night we're not really worried. MikeOReilly has it right - if I can hear the words it's too loud. I also like the practise of an air horn blasted in time to the neighbors boom box - that sounds like it'll have a desired effect. I going to try that.

Most other things become white noise to us.


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## XSrcing (Aug 22, 2015)

I'm sitting here at my desk going on the 11th hour for today and I think that I want your problems.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

bvander66 said:


> We like most music and so relax and enjoy the tunes.


That can work... BUT. We were in Salt Whistle Bay on Mayreux (sp?) a few years back.. someone had set up a monster PA on the beach and was blasting the entire bay with bass-thumping rap or some such.. it was very offensive and not at all enjoyable.. and I'm a bass player!!


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Omatako said:


> Noise created by wind generators is normally a trade for power - the more power they produce the more noise they make. We have a low-ish power wind gen (Rutland) that makes very little noise - more of a low-energy whoosh than a howl. I have seats on the aft deck right under the gen and we often sit there with a quiet wine in the evenings. The measure for us is if the wind is strong enough to make the wind gen a nuisance, it's too strong to enjoy a quiet time sitting under it.


I agree Omatako. We also have a wind generator; in our case a Silent Wind by Spreco (the blue blade company). It's not silent, but pretty darn quiet. I've actually gone around to anchorage neighbours to ask if they can hear it. No one has ever complained, and I've had numerous neighbours express surprise that we had one. Two boat lengths away it is pretty much silent. It sits above our cockpit and like Omatako, we can carry on a normal conversation in all winds were we can be outside; I'd say up to 20 knots.

I love our solar, but on our double-ender it's hard to find enough unshadowed spaces to put panels (we will soon have 400 watts).



sailak said:


> My wife and I really want to sail south from Alaska and enjoy a warm anchorage but every time I read one of these threads, or others involving the number of boats in the lower 48, I think maybe here is just fine.


I have the same fear sailak. I'm used to cruising in remote areas of the northern Great Lakes. We can go for weeks without seeing another cruiser. Bears and caribou are more common than sailors.

As we make our way further south we've encountered massive crowds (by my standards), much more marinas than anchorages, and general urban yeck. It's part of the reason we're heading to Newfoundland next.


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

We're fortunate here. Most folks don't even know how to anchor! And it's too windy for wind gens!  Plenty of empty anchorages, even without going up to The Delta.


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## Caveam (Aug 3, 2015)

I am surprised no one has mentioned jet skis! It's early spring here in Orstraya and we just had a public holiday on Monday. Was planning to take the boat out for a sail but there was no wind - and the 5 knot forecast was being generous! The day ended up a an absolute stinker as we just spent the day mucking about the marina and socialising - it was too hot at 38 Degrees C to do any jobs. However, the lack of wind may have been a bonus - out on the water it was like a race track. There were literally dozens of jet skis going all day. Making lots of noise and just generally being the pests they are. There is a boat ramp near the marina and they put them in the water there, along with the obligatory donuts in the marina make a waves as well as noise. 

You just can't sit back and relax in the afternoons with these things continually roaring back and forth. Pity we don't have lax gun laws like they do in America, because the temptation would be to nip down the gun shop and pick up some ordinance and sort out a few jet skis!
cheers
Andrew


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## XSrcing (Aug 22, 2015)

Uhhhh...yeah. Statements like that get you black flagged for gun ownership. You need help if you think annoying you is grounds for killing someone.


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## seabeau (Oct 5, 2014)

Don0190 No, actually I believe they can easily fix the problem, of uncontrolled generator wheeling. I believe that there several are electrical techniques available to accomplish this.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I will join the chorus, I find windgens to be the number 1 anchorage annoyance. I was on a ball just two weeks ago, with one screaming next to me on Block Island. Don't they usually have brakes that can be set in the anchorage? Want to bet they were ashore, while topping up their batts? Geesh.

Slapping halyards are next on my list. I find the splashing exhaust of an in-board generator to be fairly benign (although I would never run mine too late or early). Even the on deck Honda buzzerators are not nearly as annoying as a windgen, IMO.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

TQA said:


> I am with capta on this. I always have a look at nearby boats when choosing a spot to anchor. If I spy an Air Marine or Air X wind generator I will find another spot.
> 
> Like many things you can get used to the noise they make but they do pollute the anchorages. Especially in higher winds when they move into blade flutter mode.
> 
> Mind you I am a smug mug with 400w of solar panels.


Hmmm people move away from anchoring nearby when they see a wind generator. And the problem is?  I look at that as a good thing!  I have found that it also spooks birds from landing on the boom or mast another bonus! Actually I have found that my wind turbine actually gets quieter, silent even as the wind picks up. But, mine may be a newer model with newer blades I also have isolation mounts. Since I also have solar the wind generator is pretty much stopped for most of the day and not turning. I will also shut it down at times too.

Noise can also be subjective depending on peoples tolerance. Just like some people should never live in apartment buildings. I prefer to drop the hook in spots where I'm likely to be the only boat. I'm pretty tolerant when sharing an anchorage. Though draw the line at all night Salsa parties.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

capta, if you want to take out a drone, try a big old wham-o slingshot with some buckshot or cheap steel 1/4" ball bearings in it. Amazing what they can do--silently. Of course if you are good at electronics, an old thousand-watt microwave oven can be repurposed to make a fine death ray. Zer ocollateral damage, unless there are seagulls around.(G)


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Every now and then it's good to be reminded to not turn into a _Grumpy Old Man_.


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## jmiller248 (Aug 16, 2015)

caberg said:


> Every now and then it's good to be reminded to not turn into a _Grumpy Old Man_.


It's too late for for me. According to many people I was a grumpy young man.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Yelling at the kids, bad for your blood pressure.

Planting land mines in lawn and selling tickets to the show: Priceless.

Or as the little window sticker on a certain James Bond car said "Burglar Protected". (BOOM!)


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> capta, if you want to take out a drone, try a big old wham-o slingshot with some buckshot or cheap steel 1/4" ball bearings in it. ....


Brace for one of the craziest things I bet you've ever heard. Slingshots are illegal in Rhode Island. All kinds. Some other states ban only the wrist rocket, braced, surgical tubing kind. Our geniuses banned them all. The Boy Scouts' camping trips are, therefore, criminal.


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## seabeau (Oct 5, 2014)

12 gauge with #1 buckshot works well also.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Not at all surprising, Minne. Last time I looked up a state law defining "firearm" it was "any device firing any type of a projectile by any means of stored energy, such as but not restricted to spring power, explosives, compressed air, or any other means"

So yes, slingshots are firearms in some places. In fact the old original WhamO slingshots came with a wire brace that rested across the arms, to steady _arrows _fired from the slingshot.

Of course, the old fashioned biblical slingshot (a leather strap with a pouch in the middle of it) would do just as good a job, and you'd have a hard time convincing a jury that it was a "stored energy" device.(G)

You say "drone" I say "Bofors Gun". WTF.

"And all the other inmates moved to the other end of the Group W bench." 
(Alice's Restaurant")


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Oddly ironic thread in light of the current sticky "Florida is at it again".

Just so I'm clear - cruisers hate when someone anchors near them and spoils their version of enjoyment of the immediate vicinity, correct? I have that right?

Oh the humanity...


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## aa3jy (Jul 23, 2006)

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/techn...he-sky-from-a-mile-away/ar-AAfcLXr?li=BBgzzfc


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> Not at all surprising, Minne. Last time I looked up a state law defining "firearm" it was "any device firing any type of a projectile by any means of stored energy......


Actually, Rhode Island calls out specific non-firearm prohibitions. I know I have a "bludgeon" aboard, which are sold at tackle shops for knocking out the big fish, when you get them on deck. Sling shots are prohibited from carrying, possessing or attempting to use. It's also clear that wearing my 7" filet knife is specifically illegal as well.

Mind you, I've never heard of anyone being arrested for any of these.



> § 11-47-42 Weapons other than firearms prohibited. - (a)(1) No person shall carry or possess or attempt to use against another any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slingshot, billy, sandclub, sandbag, metal knuckles, slap glove, bludgeon, stun-gun, or the so called "Kung-Fu" weapons.
> 
> (2) No person shall with intent to use unlawfully against another, carry or possess a crossbow, dagger, dirk, stiletto, sword-in-cane, bowie knife, or other similar weapon designed to cut and stab another.
> 
> (3) No person shall wear or carry concealed upon his person, any of the above-mentioned instruments or weapons, or any razor, or knife of any description having a blade of more than three (3) inches in length measuring from the end of the handle where the blade is attached to the end of the blade, or other weapon of like kind or description.


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## seabeau (Oct 5, 2014)

The "Nanny State" will be the death of us all.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

Better think twice about shooting down a drone. Somebody in the states was charged a few weeks back for shooting down a drone flying over his own property. I think that is B.S!
I fly rc, but don't like drones at all. Should clarify I don't like most drone operators. They are going to ruin a fun hobby for everyone as now traditional RC planes are being lumped in with drones in terms of attempts at federal or state control.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Tanski said:


> Better think twice about shooting down a drone. Somebody in the states was charged a few weeks back for shooting down a drone flying over his own property. I think that is B.S!.......


I think a simple "safe harbor" law should be add. Not a new concept, but think about the world in the context of laws that declare things as permissible, rather than as un-permissible. Mind blowing.

In this case, the law should read that, by definition, if a slingshot or shotgun could have reached a drone, it was flying to close and had no rights.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

There are principles of law which make the airways and airspace available and protected for public use. The drones inhabit both and no private citizen has the right to destroy one.

Nor should you. Its counter intuitive. You would think they were the most sinister things, but they aren't. They haven't been. They are just flying cameras. If you think about it honestly, most of the terrible things done in the world, like dumping oil into the ocean or shooting elephants for ivory ...are done out of sight of anyone. The bad people use the lack of visibility for evil. Already there have been so many sucesses and benefits of this form of private aerial photography that I wonder what thought process , if any, causes people to fear or hate them.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> There are principles of law which make the airways and airspace available and protected for public use........


Ok, then let's start there. Aircraft are require to maintain a minimum separation of 500 feet from any person, vessel, property, etc. There is a 1000 ft requirement for any open air assembly of people, which I would argue applies to marinas and anchorages.


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## seabeau (Oct 5, 2014)

Sal: Perhaps you haven't read in the news of drones being spotted near airline runways by the crews of passenger airliners on their landing approaches which, given the drones size has to be entirely too close. All humans have the right of self defense and other fundamental rights, one being the expectation of some privacy in their lives. Proof, simply "Google", Privacy fences and see the thousands of hits you get. The need for privacy is very much in the thought process of most rational beings.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

mbianka said:


> Since I also have solar the wind generator is pretty much stopped for most of the day and not turning. I will also shut it down at times too.


The vast majority of the time folks don't understand how to _properly_ set up a wind gen controller. Yours sounds to be set up correctly if the solar shuts it off.

Wind generators are good for bulk charging only because they use ON/OFF regulation and can't use PWM regulation like an alternator or solar or battery charger can..

It is important to set the wind gen OFF point below solar or alternator or other charge sources so that it is only really used when bulk charging is necessary. They are also wear items so needlessly using them when solar can do the job is just bad practice. Perhaps 95% of the wind gens I work on are improperly set up or the controller is so crappy that it allows no set up or adjustments at all...

Good _quiet_ windgens Include the Eclectic Energy D-400, the Superwind, the Rulis Electrica Silentwind, and the MarineKinetix MK-450...


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Caveam said:


> I am surprised no one has mentioned jet skis! It's early spring here in Orstraya and we just had a public holiday on Monday. Was planning to take the boat out for a sail but there was no wind - and the 5 knot forecast was being generous! The day ended up a an absolute stinker as we just spent the day mucking about the marina and socialising - it was too hot at 38 Degrees C to do any jobs. However, the lack of wind may have been a bonus - out on the water it was like a race track. There were literally dozens of jet skis going all day. Making lots of noise and just generally being the pests they are. There is a boat ramp near the marina and they put them in the water there, along with the obligatory donuts in the marina make a waves as well as noise.
> 
> You just can't sit back and relax in the afternoons with these things continually roaring back and forth. Pity we don't have lax gun laws like they do in America, because the temptation would be to nip down the gun shop and pick up some ordinance and sort out a few jet skis!
> cheers
> Andrew


Jet skis do not operate 24 hours a day, seven days a week within a couple of boat lengths of you! Anyway, they are illegal in most islands down here.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> Ok, then let's start there. Aircraft are require to maintain a minimum separation of 500 feet from any person, vessel, property, etc. There is a 1000 ft requirement for any open air assembly of people, which I would argue applies to marinas and anchorages.


I think an anchorage is not a place of assembly. Places of assembly are regulated under the building code. Assembly is type A occupancy under the International Building Code, whereas motor vehicle related occupancies are type U. Type A relates to everything from tents to stadiums. I have never worked on an anchorage, so I think its probably not even covered under the IBC but I think a marina would be a type U.

Outdoor concerts and such that are not in buildings would have to be permitted on each date by a town or municipality. Again, doesn't apply to an anchorage.

The next level of law would be something like city events, National Security events and I think Tall Ships week at Newport is an example of one. So maybe that would warrant a TFR. You know about this because you are a pilot. I could see that restricting them, maybe. I can also see class C airspace as a restriction, obviously. Violating that should bring a jail sentence. And the current max altitude I think is already 500 feet for drones so it puts them below your required clearance. By the way my son is a commercial pilot and I come from a family in aviation so I'm not taking lightly the thought of a drone near an airport.

Then we are left with the definition of an aircraft. Of course it has no N number so its not legally one.

But I can agree with you that some sort of regulation is good. I just think its should be less for an "aircraft" that weighs 1 lb and flies at 10 knots carrying a camera. Say 200 feet unless it is in the process of landing.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

Problem is now people are using whats called FPV and flying well beyond line of sight and above 500 feet.
Camears with goggles on your head with GPS info so you know where the drone is.
AMA (American Modeler Association?) worked with the FAA and other authorities to establish a safe set of rules and regulations regarding flying rc planes and helis, then technology came along and changed what people can do.
I think the are a pretty cool toy if people would use then within the existing framework of rules for RC flying. But as with anything a few idiots will ruin it for everybody.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thank you Maine Sail. I have two D400s. They are nearly silent so never had a complaint. Would note, at least for them, you are supposed to use the brake switch only to briefly stop them. Then either tie them off or let them run. Keeping them electrically braked for long intervals can ruin them. Bearings are suppose to last a decade. We also have two large panels. Some days the wind generators give more ( in the trades) some days the solar ( in New England).
My peeves are charter cats or powerboats running the AC and genset all night long. Other one is gensets turned on before 7a or after 9p. Find the on deck gas ones the worst.
Tunes go on when underway or only inside the boat with companionway closed and cockpit speakers turned off. Kids are gone and bride realizes it's useless to argue with me as after all these years she knows I'm not smart enough to get her point so we are very quite neighbors.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Tanski said:


> Better think twice about shooting down a drone. Somebody in the states was charged a few weeks back for shooting down a drone flying over his own property. I think that is B.S!


Just MASSIVE thread drift :cut_out_animated_em

The problem with shooting at drones is that went you miss that bullet comes down somewhere!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> I think an anchorage is not a place of assembly. Places of assembly are regulated under the building code. Assembly is type A occupancy under the International Building Code, whereas motor vehicle related occupancies are type U. Type A relates to everything from tents to stadiums. I have never worked on an anchorage, so I think its probably not even covered under the IBC but I think a marina would be a type U.
> 
> Outdoor concerts and such that are not in buildings would have to be permitted on each date by a town or municipality. Again, doesn't apply to an anchorage.
> 
> ...


Yes, Sal, I am a pilot and I don't believe building codes have anything to do with the separation definitions. Further, one has no separation (ie altitude) requirement, in an aircraft, over the water. You are simply required to remain 500 ft from any person, vessel, etc. That could be horizontal and works for me. Ironically, it's further than my shotgun/slingshot proposal.

Lack of an N number is simply a reflection of not requiring one. They still fly through airspace. While regulations specific to drones are in development, I'm sure they will be a touch more liberal. Still, no closer than I could reach with a shotgun/slingshot.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

outbound said:


> Thank you Maine Sail. I have two D400s. They are nearly silent so never had a complaint. Would note, at least for them, you are supposed to use the brake switch only to briefly stop them. Then either tie them off or let them run. Keeping them electrically braked for long intervals can ruin them. Bearings are suppose to last a decade. We also have two large panels. Some days the wind generators give more ( in the trades) some days the solar ( in New England).
> My peeves are charter cats or powerboats running the AC and genset all night long. Other one is gensets turned on before 7a or after 9p. Find the on deck gas ones the worst.
> Tunes go on when underway or only inside the boat with companionway closed and cockpit speakers turned off. Kids are gone and bride realizes it's useless to argue with me as after all these years she knows I'm not smart enough to get her point so we are very quite neighbors.


Yes the D400 is a bit different and internally rectified (outputs DC) vs. rectified at the controller (outputs AC) and while it can spin the the brake mechanism is only for temporary use. This one of its biggest draw backs, having to manually tie the blades off... The FlexCharge / dump load system is a bit kludgey but is reliable and so long as you get the OFF points set well it can play nicely with solar.... The D400 is a unique but robust and quiet unit..


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## VallelyJ (Nov 21, 2008)

> Just so I'm clear - cruisers hate when someone anchors near them and spoils their version of enjoyment of the immediate vicinity, correct? I have that right?


I think they're mostly beefing about various sources of loud noise.
I haven't seen any posts saying "Don't anchor in my view because I don't want anyone else using the water I'm looking at from my yard". 
Sorry, but I guess you don't.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

VallelyJ said:


> I think they're mostly beefing about various sources of loud noise.
> I haven't seen any posts saying "Don't anchor in my view because I don't want anyone else using the water I'm looking at from my yard".
> Sorry, but I guess you don't.


Na, I think I got it pretty well. Cruisers in this thread are complaining about those who come into their anchorage (the anchorage they are currently in) and bothering them with wind gens, gas/diesel gens, music, drones and whatever else is salting up their anchoring game.

Seems a bit odd as I noted in my last post, as those who live on land and are complaining are often complaining in the very same manner. With cruisers it's "Shhhhh!!, I am entitled to my quiet in this public place!!" and with land owners, it's "Move, I can't see!!!, I am entitled to my public views from my land I paid for!!"

If land owners aren't entitled to their views of the anchorage, why exactly are cruisers entitled to dictate noise levels of the anchorage? It's a fair question, as what constitutes appropriate anchorage usage anyway? The early to bed/early to rise sailor who is often there for the peace and quiet and views? The party boater who rolls in after dark, parties till the wee hours and wants to sleep till noon the next day? Neither? Both? Again, fair question.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Check the record. I understand the landowner's concern. I don't agree with the draconian ban on anchorages, but support a compromise.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I realize this is just trolling so I shouldn't respond, but...

Nobody here has called for state or federal regulations prohibiting wind or diesel generators, or late night parties. That's the difference.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

chrisncate said:


> Na, I think I got it pretty well. Cruisers in this thread are complaining about those who come into their anchorage (the anchorage they are currently in) and bothering them with wind gens, gas/diesel gens, music, drones and whatever else is salting up their anchoring game.
> 
> Seems a bit odd as I noted in my last post, as those who live on land and are complaining are often complaining in the very same manner. With cruisers it's "Shhhhh!!, I am entitled to my quiet in this public place!!" and with land owners, it's "Move, I can't see!!!, I am entitled to my public views from my land I paid for!!"
> 
> If land owners aren't entitled to their views of the anchorage, why exactly are cruisers entitled to dictate noise levels of the anchorage? It's a fair question, as what constitutes appropriate anchorage usage anyway? The early to bed/early to rise sailor who is often there for the peace and quiet and views? The party boater who rolls in after dark, parties till the wee hours and wants to sleep till noon the next day? Neither? Both? Again, fair question.


You know, I even feel dirty typing it, but I agree. (OH I know I will hate myself in the morning)


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Minnesail said:


> Nobody here has called for state or federal regulations prohibiting wind or diesel generators, or late night parties. That's the difference.


Other than that one difference (landowners calling for bans on anchoring), it certainly appears to be the exact same gripe based in the exact same mindset, which is appropriate use of the anchorage and who is defining appropriate use of the anchorage.

You have to admit, it's hard to make the argument on the one hand that the public space is the public space and that's just that, while simultaneously arguing that people are being rude in the public space by making noises you don't like based on your particular type of use of the public space and what you personally deem appropriate usage of the public space.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I think some people give their kids stupid names. Really stupid names. Moxie CrimeFighter, for instance. Pilot Inspektor, for another instance.

It's one thing to ***** about that on the internet. It's another thing entirely to try to get a law enacted specifying which baby names are acceptable.

I see this thread as bitching about annoying neighbors.

I see the other thread being about people trying to get laws enacted.


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## VallelyJ (Nov 21, 2008)

> If land owners aren't entitled to their views of the anchorage, why exactly are cruisers entitled to dictate noise levels of the anchorage? It's a fair question, as what constitutes appropriate anchorage usage anyway?


Faulty analogy. 
Your view of the anchorage isn't an "entitlement". It's a luxurious amenity. A boost to your home's value. Your ability to afford it doesn't give you special rights the rest of us don't have.Your possibly higher property taxes are for your home's perceived higher monetary value, not for a higher degree of rights. "Your" view of the anchorage doesn't make it your property, and it isn't something that the government is obliged to conform to your tastes. 
Does someone with a more distant view than you have more 'entitlement" to control it than you? Do you have more right to determine the use of the water than someone living a block inland from you? 
I shouldn't blast my boat's stereo; your next door neighbor shouldn't blast his, either. The remedy is a noise ordinance, and not the creation of a special class of citizen.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Noise pollution is a health issue. Whether or not the noise is generated from a public or private place doesn't matter. Whether or not the noise is generated on land or sea doesn't matter. If the noise wakes people or does not allow them to sleep or interrupts their sleep or is so loud as to interfere with standard communication or so obnoxious as to interfere with their ability to concentrate on their daily activities it is a public nuisance. Noise pollution affects your sympathetic nervous system tone raising bp and pulse. It affects your mood and ability to attend to task.
Viewed from that perspective you can understand why abbuters to public spaces have a legitimate argument to curtail loud music, construction, loud machines or other noise sources during usual sleeping hours. Believe you should never generate noise that would be over a 20dB level on the deck of the nearest boat. Believe the same consideration to others should apply in anchorages and mooring fields as on land. 
Don't think this is a nimby issue. Think this is a health issue.


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## VallelyJ (Nov 21, 2008)

> You have to admit, it's hard to make the argument on the one hand that the public space is the public space and that's just that, while simultaneously arguing that people are being rude in the public space by making noises you don't like based on your particular type of use of the public space and what you personally deem appropriate usage of the public space.


No, it's easy to make that argument.
The sidewalk in front of your house is public space. I have to follow certain laws when I'm using it. Been the case for as long as there have been laws and sidewalks.
You can argue in favor of one type of use or against another, but you can't argue against regulating the use. Someone could decide the street your kids play on is suitable for drag racing. The street's public space. That OK with you? I doubt it.
And excess noise in a private space is regulated by statute in lots of places, so regulating it in a public space should be a slam dunk. And when unreasonable noise enters my property, it stops being public space, anyway.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Minnesail said:


> I see this thread as bitching about annoying neighbors.
> 
> I see the other thread being about people trying to get laws enacted.


I see the same thing on the surface, two different threads. Obviuosly.

Underneath, I see the very same type of justifications being made about controlling a public space based on a personal opinion of how it should be used. The core of the argument is exactly the same, that being "I am here, and you are screwing up my enjoyment by being here in a manner I don't agree with".

Same old "get off my lawn" stuff that has existed since the invention of lawns. No more, no less.



outbound said:


> Noise pollution is a health issue.


I have to laugh at this in the context of this discussion. A wind/gas/diesel generator and/or audible music is hardly a "health issue". Further to that, even labeling music being able to be heard from one boat to another as "noise pollution" is silly. As is labeling the noise made by a wind gen or even gas/diesel gen. Irritating to some, sure. Noise pollution? No.

No one in this thread prior to my participation was talking about noise levels in excess of law. They were clearly talking about noise that is irritating, but legal. Lets not get carried away here grasping at abstract arguments that don't apply.

Lets say it is a health issue though, for the purposes of this discussion. The cruiser is in a public space "at will". The cruiser can leave at will at any time, and obviously has no right above any other to the public space. The cruiser is not forced to endure any noise, and they are *free to come and go as they please.

*Keep in mind - If the decibel levels are in excess of local or state laws, the cruiser can always call law enforcement. Otherwise, all noise that is not in violation of the law is just that, noise. Regardless of the cruisers personal views on what is noise pollution and what is not.



> Whether or not the noise is generated from a public or private place doesn't matter. Whether or not the noise is generated on land or sea doesn't matter. If the noise wakes people or does not allow them to sleep or interrupts their sleep or is so loud as to interfere with standard communication or so obnoxious as to interfere with their ability to concentrate on their daily activities it is a public nuisance. Noise pollution affects your sympathetic nervous system tone raising bp and pulse. It affects your mood and ability to attend to task.
> Viewed from that perspective you can understand why abbuters to public spaces have a legitimate argument to curtail loud music, construction, loud machines or other noise sources during usual sleeping hours. Believe you should never generate noise that would be over a 20dB level on the deck of the nearest boat. Believe the same consideration to others should apply in anchorages and mooring fields as on land.
> Don't think this is a nimby issue. Think this is a health issue.


To follow your logic, the only persons who can really make the noise argument are those who are permanent land residents within ear shot of the anchorage. Unlike the cruiser who encounters loud neighbors and can leave the public space at any time, land owners cannot and may indeed have an argument based on "a public nuisance".



VallelyJ said:


> No, it's easy to make that argument.


No, it's not. Unless you're contending that the noise from a wind gen is illegal, or that being able to hear music from another boat is illegal (in which case you're still incorrect on the matter).



> And excess noise in a private space is regulated by statute in lots of places, so regulating it in a public space should be a slam dunk. And when unreasonable noise enters my property, it stops being public space, anyway.


Again, lets not lose the context of the discussion here. Being able to simply hear music, or a generator from another's boat is hardly able to be classified as illegal. Please don't try to conflate what this thread is about with some bogus "legal" argument regarding noise in the anchorage, because if that's what this thread was about many here would have already said "just call the cops".

It's not about noise in such excess that it breaks laws, it's about others in the anchorage making noise cruisers don't agree with based on lifestyle and bedtimes. It's just that simple.


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> You have to admit, it's hard to make the argument on the one hand that the public space is the public space and that's just that, while simultaneously arguing that people are being rude in the public space by making noises you don't like based on your particular type of use of the public space and what you personally deem appropriate usage of the public space.


I understand your point, I just think you are entirely wrong.

The anchorage noise issue is one of courtesy. Boater should be able to expect a certain level of courtesy from the folks that share the anchorage. The waterfront land owner also should be able to expect courtesy from boats anchoring in front of their property and not make undo noise.

Likewise the land owner should be able to expect his land neighbors to exhibit courtesy and not be excessively noisy and he should be able to expect that cars passing or parked along the public street in front of his house shouldn't disturb his peace and quiet with excessively loud music. However, that is entirely different than demanding that boats not anchor in a public waterway or that cars not drive down "his" (public) street.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

dhays said:


> I understand your point, I just think you are entirely wrong.
> 
> The anchorage noise issue is one of courtesy. Boater should be able to expect a certain level of courtesy from the folks that share the anchorage. The waterfront land owner also should be able to expect courtesy from boats anchoring in front of their property and not make undo noise.
> 
> Likewise the land owner should be able to expect his land neighbors to exhibit courtesy and not be excessively noisy and he should be able to expect that cars passing or parked along the public street in front of his house shouldn't disturb his peace and quiet with excessively loud music. However, that is entirely different than demanding that boats not anchor in a public waterway or that cars not drive down "his" (public) street.


This is an excellent point of discussion, and speaks to the heart of what I am saying. Who gets to define what's reasonable courtesy in the anchorage?

Cruisers have a fairly consistent MO in the anchorage, which is a five PM happy hour, a relatively early dinner and often lights out well before 11pm after a few hours of quiet time enjoying the evening and reflecting on the day's sail and events (broadly speaking). Power boaters on the other hand, may not even anchor until after dark, and will often enjoy the evening into the wee hours while intending to sleep in late the next morning.

Who's right? What's courteous? Is it rude to play music and be up until the wee hours? Is it rude to expect others to adhere to your schedule and go to bed at 10pm? Before you bang out a reply, think about the fact that the power boaters late night noise might be mirrored by the cruisers early morning noise. Cruisers often wake with the sunrise and begin their routine, which might include making noise on a very quiet morning, everything from making breakfast to pulling up the hook and getting underway (and the often ensuing hilarity as the cruiser husband barks at the cruiser wife regarding pulling said hook and getting underway). Also worth mentioning, it's apples and oranges comparing home life with being in the anchorage regarding noise and courtesy. A better analogy would be comparing being at anchor with being on any other vacation away from home. Different standards apply.

Outside of the law regarding decibel levels, it's really just subjective is my point. One man's irritation and perception of rudeness and discourteousness is another man's ideal view of a pleasant night and day at anchor. While on vacation (whether it be a one day gunkhole or a year long cruise), you're not at home and you are subject to others who might be making the most of their vacation. I think a lot of sailors lose sight of this fact.


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## VallelyJ (Nov 21, 2008)

> No, it's not. Unless you're contending that the noise from a wind gen is illegal, or that being able to hear music from another boat is illegal (in which case you're still incorrect on the matter).


Doesn't sound as though you read my post. Some loud noise is illegal, in some places. People can argue about where the line is, but not many people say there's no line. Complaining about some idiot's choice to buy an excessively loud generator doesn't support the argument that no one should be allowed to anchor in a pubic waterway. That would be like saying, "cars go by my house too fast--close the street to traffic".



> It's not about noise in such excess that it breaks laws, it's about others in the anchorage making noise cruisers don't agree with based on lifestyle and bedtimes. It's just that simple.


I think we can all see what the post is about, and we disagree on that, too.
You make yourself sound like you want to be able to play your stereo as loud as you want, any time you want. Not sure if that's what you mean.
Your earlier argument suggested that any right to regulate behavior in public places, like noise, extends to the landowner who wants to ban behavior he doesn't agree with, i.e. anchoring. If I have that wrong, say so. Otherwise, do you really want to defend that?
Some noise is illegal. Some isn't and probably never will be, annoying or not. Lots of grey to argue about in between, but banning anchoring in public water is an apples-and-oranges comparison. What you can see is not co-terminal with what you have the right to control. You own your front windows. That doesn't give you the right to control everything that you can see out your window, no matter how you feel about law-abiding boaters, how pricey your window is or how high your taxes are.
There is no logical parallel between controlling public disturbance, i.e. excessive noise, or speeding, or public urination, and banning lawful anchoring just because you don't happen to like seeing boats.
I've run out of ways to say this. If you want to keep arguing over it, come up with another line of reasoning.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

chrisncate said:


> Na, I think I got it pretty well.


No, I really don't think you've got it at all.
It doesn't sound like you've ever sailed thousands of miles to get away from civilization and experienced a pleasant evening in your cockpit, without being bombarded with unnecessary and obviously unpleasant noise. It's not like these people are unaware of the racket their windgens make, is it? They just don't care.
As MaineSail said, there are alternatives to the noisy crap windgens, and they are certainly much cheaper in the end, because they outlast the cheap ones many times over!
I have literally had windgens on boats anchored several hundred feet away make so much noise that we couldn't converse in a normal voice in our cockpit. All night long that thing rattled and clattered, as it's bearings were obviously shot.
I'd be so embarrassed that I'd take a shotgun to that thing myself, if it was mine.
There is a thing called common courtesy, and it isn't just for the boating community. If you must run a generator, or have a noisy windgen, then the courteous thing to do would be to anchor downwind, beyond the other boats, not insinuate yourself into the middle of the anchorage.
I'm not looking for laws or regulations, just personal responsibility and a bit of consideration for others.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I sat in an anchorage a couple of weeks ago, with a loud windgen, whirring 24/7 in the 20kt breeze, on the mooring next to me. I was annoyed. The guy with the windgen was an inconsiderate A-hole. 

I'm now sitting in my living room, no longer annoyed. No doubt, that guy is still an inconsiderate A-hole.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> ...But I can agree with you that some sort of regulation is good. I just think its should be less for an "aircraft" that weighs 1 lb and flies at 10 knots carrying a camera......


Not sure, if you'll be able to see the link, without an account.

Drone action urged - AOPA

Now we're talking...... 



> One congressman suggested making drone misconduct a federal crime, subject to a year in jail and "significant" fines,.....





> .....the FAA demanded the largest civil penalty to date from a drone operator, a $1.9 million fine for violating FAA regulations


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

As capta says, people just dont care. How to make them? It's called empathy. That's the tricky part. If we could do that, we'd fix the world in a week. It seems to me there is no person more deserving of quiet than a sailboat in an anchorage. Rather than worry about who gets to set the standard, how about trying to raise the standard? 



Thanks Minnewaska. It is interesting but I dont want to hijack capta's thread anymore.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

capta said:


> There is a thing called common courtesy, and it isn't just for the boating community.


I'm sure common courtesy is kind of like common sense; if it is so common why don't people have it.

The fact that people do things regularly kind of suggests that is "common".


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

capta said:


> It doesn't sound like you've ever sailed thousands of miles to get away from civilization and experienced a pleasant evening in your cockpit, without being bombarded with unnecessary and obviously unpleasant noise.


Nice use of the _I am a cruiser so I am superior_ card. But it falls sorta flat. Clearly, you have chosen to *not* "get away from civilization." You could, but for whatever reason you have not. Funny thing is, I only have to go a few miles from my mooring up here in the Northeast to choose from dozens of anchorages where I'll be the only boat all day and night.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

C
Offer a few examples of why it does impact on health.
Went to Block I. with the bride. She had 4 days of 12h shifts before leaving. After we anchored another boat came in and anchored. At 5 am they started gas generator which was on their deck and then left their boat. They came back after about 1h and went below. The genset woke my wife. I dinghied over to ask they turn it off when owner returned. Was told they were taking showers and it would stay on. Owner was quite unpleasant and offered a stream of curses when politely asked to wait on genset. Boat was in poor repair and muffler of genset seemed nonfunctional.

Anchor out in Annegada- two charter cats come in later and anchor near each other upwind of me. No other space in anchorage. Not possible to move and nearest harbor North Sound. It's about 8p when they come in. I'm alone on the boat Maybe 8 people on each boat. They have a party and dinghy back and forth until 2-3a with rap blasting on both boats. They gradually go below but leave generators and music on in cockpit speakers. A few continue to jump off boat yelling and screaming through the night. One is in dinghy and seems to buzz by my boat periodically at full speed. Actually stayed put an extra day after they left to get sleep before moving on.

Have multiple examples of like behavior and I'm sure other SNers have their own. Reality is outside U.S. There is no authority that will intercede. Inside the U.S. often the same. Given people who noise pollute are often quite ego centric you maybe taking a chance for the situation to escalate. 

Regardless of what you say C. respectfully disagree and still look at interrupted or lack of sleep as a health issue. Still look at noise sufficient to inpede focus on running the boat as dangerous. We ride motorcycles so have have earplugs. We use them on the boat as well. But when I'm alone I don't as I want to hear the boat. I'm use to the normal sounds so a change will wake me or if awake bring me on deck. I lose that if there is sufficient background noise.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Well, the easy solution is to stop going where so many other people go. What do you expect at Block Island and in the BVIs?

Personally, I would never think to ask another boater to turn off their generator. That seems sort of presumptuous and rude to me.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

capta said:


> No, I really don't think you've got it at all.


Na, I got it just fine.



> It doesn't sound like you've ever sailed thousands of miles to get away from civilization and experienced a pleasant evening in your cockpit, without being bombarded with unnecessary and obviously unpleasant noise. It's not like these people are unaware of the racket their windgens make, is it? They just don't care.


A thousand miles or a thousand feet, I still don't seem to be getting any insight on why the cruisers version of what constitutes rude behavior is the standard.

As far as getting away from civilization, I did just that, except I bought a farm with some acreage and now I am in control of the noise levels around me. Owning my get away guarantees my peace and quiet, which is very nice indeed.



> As MaineSail said, there are alternatives to the noisy crap windgens, and they are certainly much cheaper in the end, because they outlast the cheap ones many times over!
> I have literally had windgens on boats anchored several hundred feet away make so much noise that we couldn't converse in a normal voice in our cockpit. All night long that thing rattled and clattered, as it's bearings were obviously shot.
> I'd be so embarrassed that I'd take a shotgun to that thing myself, if it was mine.
> There is a thing called common courtesy, and it isn't just for the boating community. If you must run a generator, or have a noisy windgen, then the courteous thing to do would be to anchor downwind, beyond the other boats, not insinuate yourself into the middle of the anchorage.
> I'm not looking for laws or regulations, just personal responsibility and a bit of consideration for others.


Seems pretty arrogant to me. Cruisers are on vacation, it's not the same as being at home. Others might spoil your version of paradise with their own ideas on what makes them comfortable. At the end of the day, you gotta remember where you are and what you're doing. You're on holiday, and so are others.



Sal Paradise said:


> As capta says, people just dont care. How to make them? It's called empathy. That's the tricky part. If we could do that, we'd fix the world in a week. It seems to me there is no person more deserving of quiet than a sailboat in an anchorage. Rather than worry about who gets to set the standard, how about trying to raise the standard?


Seems _incredibly_ arrogant to me. Why is "no person more deserving of quiet than the cruiser" exactly? Good lord man. As for raising the standard, maybe others on vacation don't really want to raise any standard for your benefit or even think about stuff like that? Perhaps the noise their generator makes isn't really that big of a deal to them as it is to the cruiser.

I'd also ask you guys - in addition to generators and music, any thought on Captain Onions and his wife Peppers when they anchor their 70's vintage bottle in front of you and cook liver and sauerkraut while chain smoking cigs all night? Is that also rude? Is it rude when Captain AngryPants barks orders at his wife when departing the anchorage at daybreak and others in the anchorage are still sleeping?

It's all subjective, and I gotta tell you - the cult of cruising is definitely existence in a bubble a lot of the time. You can't really believe that you have some lordship over others in the anchorage simply by virtue of the type of boat (sail) that you have, can you? I'd think you'd realize that if you truly want peace and quiet, you'd sail to places where there aren't others. You just can't expect everyone around you to bend to your version of what boating should be.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

aloof said:


> Our only solution is to move. Move.


Yeah, OK, so let me get this straight.
You and your best gal have been sitting in a lovely anchorage with a bit less than perfect holding for a day or two, and after a couple of squalls you are pretty comfortable that your pick is holding nicely. Snorkeling is great and the beach is clean, uninhabited and lovely. 
In comes this boat with a particularly noisy windgen (or it could be a boat with a diesel/gas generator; you know the fumes are going to be awful, if not the noise) and plops his anchor down directly up wind from you. 
Am I getting this right? You are going to crank up your engine and haul your anchor and try to reset your pick away from this incredibly inconsiderate boater, in an anchorage known to have relatively poor holding? You just accept that this is how things should be, with no resentment at all?
I'm not saying that one should berate or otherwise hassle this boat, but it should be on them, not you, to anchor responsibly.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

capta said:


> Yeah, OK, so let me get this straight.
> You and your best gal have been sitting in a lovely anchorage with a bit less than perfect holding for a day or two, and after a couple of squalls you are pretty comfortable that your pick is holding nicely. Snorkeling is great and the beach is clean, uninhabited and lovely.
> In comes this boat with a particularly noisy windgen (or it could be a boat with a diesel/gas generator; you know the fumes are going to be awful, if not the noise) and plops his anchor down directly up wind from you.
> Am I getting this right? You are going to crank up your engine and haul your anchor and try to reset your pick away from this incredibly inconsiderate boater, in an anchorage known to have relatively poor holding? You just accept that this is how things should be, with no resentment at all?
> I'm not saying that one should berate or otherwise hassle this boat, but it should be on them, not you, to anchor responsibly.


See how this argument goes both ways?:


capta said:


> Yeah, OK, so let me get this straight.
> You and your best gal have been sitting in the living room in front of the lovely anchorage for a year or two. Snorkeling is great and the beach is clean, uninhabited and lovely.
> 
> In comes this boat with a particularly noisy windgen (or it could be a boat with a diesel/gas generator; you know the fumes are going to be awful, if not the noise) and plops his anchor down directly up wind from you.
> ...


It's the same argument, except for some reason you're right and everyone else is wrong. Makes no sense. None at all.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

Sorry guys. But I have to agree w/ Capta and Outbound. 
I have more crap wind generators, generators and blasting music keep me awake than I can remember because some inconsiderate jerk anchored on top of me.
If you don't get this maybe you are part of the problem.
Jim


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

capta said:


> Yeah, OK, so let me get this straight.......................
> In comes this boat with a particularly noisy windgen (or it could be a boat with a diesel/gas generator; you know the fumes are going to be awful, if not the noise) and plops his anchor down directly up wind from you.
> Am I getting this right? ..................................................................................
> I'm not saying that one should berate or otherwise hassle this boat, but it should be on them, not you, to anchor responsibly.


Happened to me just last weekend. No generator, but anchoring directly upwind of someone who was there first is incredibly rude.

To top it off, this jerk had a small Delta anchor, too small for his boat.

Guess what? He dragged down towards us. I got on the bow of our boat and started yelling at him. Why he thought I was going towards him was amazing!!!!

Few folks around here at least know how to anchor and what anchoring etiquette is.

And then there's the stupid "herd" mentality: Oh, empty anchorage, room all over, but they anchor right next to you.

Jerks.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

capta said:


> Yeah, OK, so let me get this straight.
> You and your best gal have been sitting in a lovely anchorage with a bit less than perfect holding for a day or two, and after a couple of squalls you are pretty comfortable that your pick is holding nicely. Snorkeling is great and the beach is clean, uninhabited and lovely.
> In comes this boat with a particularly noisy windgen (or it could be a boat with a diesel/gas generator; you know the fumes are going to be awful, if not the noise) and plops his anchor down directly up wind from you.
> Am I getting this right? You are going to crank up your engine and haul your anchor and try to reset your pick away from this incredibly inconsiderate boater, in an anchorage known to have relatively poor holding? You just accept that this is how things should be, with no resentment at all?
> I'm not saying that one should berate or otherwise hassle this boat, but it should be on them, not you, to anchor responsibly.


When Im being anchored 'on top of' and too close to, and I dont feel like moving .... I sometimes visibly and loudly 'practice' the bagpipe chanter, which usually gets instant corrective results!!!!!!! :-o


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Well, it has at least been proven that Block Island is a magnet for some rude boaters. As if we locals didn't already know that............


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Stu Jackson said:


> Happened to me just last weekend. No generator, but anchoring directly upwind of someone who was there first is incredibly rude.
> 
> To top it off, this jerk had a small Delta anchor, too small for his boat.
> 
> ...


I think the most amazing example of the 'herd' mentality I've experienced was when I was anchored in a bay in Moorea, French Polynesia in 1972. We were absolutely alone in this HUGE bay with several hundred feet of scope out, as it was pretty deep.
In comes this sailboat from an unnamed antipodean country and plops his anchor down within a hundred feet of my bow. A hundred FEET in 85 feet of water!
We just stood there, mouths agape, unable to say a word, watching. Needless to say, it wasn't long before he saw the error of his ways and moved some distance away, probably cursing 'those filthy American hippies' as he reanchored!


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## rnixon (May 7, 2013)

Wow this is a hot topic.

My take on it is that anchoring in a previously occupied, quiet location, and making lots of noise is obviously plain rude, inconsiderate and anti-social. I have the same issue with people that must have loud music at the beach, when there are lots of families around. Later is fine, if it doesn't disturb residents.

I am very sensitive to noise when I'm trying to sleep, so I understand the issues with noisy wind generators. However, the owners most likely don't have the same noise sensitivity, and are not doing something deliberate.

Running generators do disturb my sleep, but, if people are on the boat with the generator, they get more noise (if not smell). I would therefore assume that they have a need to run it, so it's more of a grey area for me.

As always, some friendly communication / education is worth a try. Beyond that, you just have to grin and bear it, or move.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

This discussion seems to illustrate a core problem we have in countries like the US, and increasingly in Canada; we're all just in it for ourselves. Too many of us only seem to care about how things affect us: my space, my property, my rights. The heck with anyone else.

We seem to have forgotten how to live together.


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## jmiller248 (Aug 16, 2015)

MikeOReilly said:


> This discussion seems to illustrate a core problem we have in countries like the US, and increasingly in Canada; we're all just in it for ourselves. Too many of us only seem to care about how things affect us: my space, my property, my rights. The heck with anyone else.
> 
> We seem to have forgotten how to live together.


I think you have hit the nail on the head. I have been saying for years that people are no longer respecting or being courteous to others anymore. That's not the way I was raised.


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## XSrcing (Aug 22, 2015)

Many have forgotten that just because you don't agree with someone it doesn't mean you can't be nice to them or *gasp* be friends with them.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

chrisncate-

what are point you arguing FOR? What is YOUR point? 

I await with anxious anticipation the enlightenment you are sure to bring us.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

MikeOReilly said:


> This discussion seems to illustrate a core problem we have in countries like the US, and increasingly in Canada; we're all just in it for ourselves. Too many of us only seem to care about how things affect us: my space, my property, my rights. The heck with anyone else.
> 
> We seem to have forgotten how to live together.


Amen!! Today I experienced both sides.

*Self Entitled Side:*

I stopped at Panera Bread for a salad at lunch. The line was 20 people deep and my mental math told me waiting out the line would be quicker than driving elsewhere. A young mother with her two "_perfect_" kids was in front of me. The menu was directly in front of all of us in-line and she had about 15-18 minutes for her & the boys to figure it out. When she was called up to order she spent 11 minutes going back and forth (the lady behind me calling out the time every minute or so) with her "_perfect kids_" trying to decide what to eat.

"I don't like that." 
"I don't like that either." 
"you want a cookie." 
"No I want a cupcake." 
"You can't have a cupcake for lunch."
etc. etc. etc.... for ELEVEN FREAKING MINUTES!!!

Of course being the self entitled ignoramus she was, she chose to spend the entire time in-line on Facebook with her iPhone, when she could have been discussing with the boys what to eat! The poor lady at the register kept apologizing to everyone in line when the mother could not see. A typical self centered, self entitled and arrogant feminine hygiene bag!!!

*The good people:*

I then had to stop at Home Depot. It was *pouring rain* and a single 20 something mother carrying her infant baby loaded her car then walked her cart over to the cart-corral and put it away, rather than leaving it in the lot to dent and ding other vehicles like many self entitled feminine hygiene bags will do.!!!

I walked over to her window and knocked on it. When she rolled it down I thanked her profusely for putting her cart back and doing the _right thing_. I then handed her the $4.00 I had left in my pocket so she could buy her kid a treat for the ride home... She was shocked, as was I, that a twenty something had actually done the _right thing_.

While there are still good people out there it is getting farther and further between sightings!! Sadly _good, kind and considerate people_ have become an endangered species....


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

I stand by my earlier assessment: _Grumpy Old Men_

The suggestion that there are less "_good, kind and considerate people_" today, means what? That there were more good, kind and considerate people some time in the past? Maybe in the 1950s, before those hippies in the 60s took over? Try asking blacks, or gays, or women, how they feel about now versus then.

Waiting an extra _ELEVEN FREAKIN MINUTES!!!_ for food at a restaurant? Maybe that Mom with 2 kids was doing work emails in line, while trying to make ends meet, and being the best Mom she could. Why jump to the conclusion that she's a "self entitled and arrogant feminine hygiene bag!!!" (p.s. you can say douchebag, this is 2015)

Maybe the problem is that _Grumpy Old Men_ are too bitter and uptight to see the good, kind and considerate people that are all around them.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

caberg said:


> I stand by my earlier assessment: _Grumpy Old Men_


HEY YOU!!!!!! GET OFF MY FORUM.

like that type of grumpy?


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I don't have any data or studies to back this up, it's just my observation, but I think the teens and twenty-somethings today are more considerate and public-spirited than the generation before them. I have hope for the future.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> chrisncate-
> 
> what are point you arguing FOR? What is YOUR point?
> 
> I await with anxious anticipation the enlightenment you are sure to bring us.


I'm not arguing for or against anything, I just think when you are outside of the cruising dream bubble you see things a little different. I noticed this thread and the arguments are pretty much the same as the FL sticky thread's landowner arguments - complaining about others use of a resource you have no ownership of or control over. I found the proximity of the two threads to one another ironic.

Sure, there is a level of rude that is universally unacceptable. No one argues against that. But whining endlessly online about halyard slap? Audible music past sundown? A wind generator? This is where the cruising set imo needs to get a grip and just suck it up already.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

caberg said:


> I stand by my earlier assessment: _Grumpy Old Men_
> 
> The suggestion that there are less "_good, kind and considerate people_" today, means what? That there were more good, kind and considerate people some time in the past? Maybe in the 1950s, before those hippies in the 60s took over? Try asking blacks, or gays, or women, how they feel about now versus then.
> 
> ...


Umm because as I said she spent the entire time in line pretty much ignoring her kids while surfing Facebook on her iPhone 6Plus. The screen is big enough so I could see exactly what she was doing...


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I don't actually think people are fundamentally any different now than 100 years ago. I do think that we are increasingly creating societies that foster isolationism, separation and fear. Part of this is due to the inevitable reality of massive urbanization, which fosters lack of community and therefore diminished social cohesion. But I think there are other social developments that are promoting the cult of ME: the Internet, the so-called "nanny state" (and I'm not an anti-gvt fanatic), and increased personal affluence are all some of these developments. 

There are many, many, more factors, but I think the real point is that we are creating societies of individuals that no longer really need each other. In that light it makes perfect sense that people blast their stereos without any regard for others, roar around anchorages in suped up "dinghies, and yes, anchor their boat right off the shore of someone's home or right on top of another vessel. No one has to care about other people b/c it no longer matters to ME. I'm alone, independent, and self-sufficient. What do I care what you think...

I don't have any solutions or great wisdom to offer. I do think you might be right Minnesail; that "the kids today" might be turning this around. Not b/c they are different or better. I believe it's b/c this is the first generation that will be less well off that their parents, so they actually need each other; they need society, hence the rise of the so-called "sharing economy."


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

C- you mentioned " cruisers are on vacation". Guess what I'm NOT on vacation. My boat is a home. My home. 

You mentioned I should move. Guess what as the captain of my boat my first obligation is to keep my boat safe and those living on her. I specifically cited an instance where to move the boat would place both the boat and me at risk. BTW the boat is a major asset for me. I worked my whole life to afford her. This is true for many if not most of the cruising community. Some are part time cruisers as they need to periodically work to support their major asset- their boat- but they too follow basic principles of good seamanship and avoid placing their boat or theirselves at risk.

Your statements do not reflect the reality of many cruisers lives. Many live in their boats (e.g. houses). Commonly in U.S. waters during the summers and above 40N during hurricane season. Then in the Caribbean after Nov 1 as hurricane comes to a close.

I think your statements do not reflect the realities of the cruising community on the east coast. I suspect neither do they reflect the realities of the cruising community on the west coast or anywhere else in the world.

I hope this post allows you to view cruisers in a different light. Minnie cites a considerate soul. I've been struck how nearly universally the cruising community has been helpful. I routinely help other cruisers with sharing tools, labor or my limited knowledge and have routinely received in kind. This occurs without request but rather upon awareness of need. I have never been discomforted by noise pollution from a fellow cruiser nor professional mariner unless an extreme contingency required. Folks seem to understand rude behavior may cause help to not be offered in the future. They understand the world is a small place and the typical cruising grounds smaller still. It not uncommon to run in to people you spent time with in the Caribbean up in Maine or the Chessie or elsewhere. 
I spent much of my professional life in a tourist town so I know how people forget to drive when on vacation. It's a shame when they also forget decent behavior. There are bumper stickers in this town "they call it tourist season so when can we shoot them".
Please realize I'm not talking about halyard slap nor hearing music I don't like. Rather noise pollution at a level it interrupts sleep,or annoys people to a level it impedes their being able to function.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

outbound said:


> C- you mentioned " cruisers are on vacation". Guess what I'm NOT on vacation. My boat is a home. My home.


I went back through some of your posts and read a bit on what you're doing out there.

You're retired and cruising, correct? You're living aboard, while you cruise to different locations? You aren't cruising to locations based on employment, but rather pleasure and a desire to see these locations in a retired and cruising capacity? You still have a land home (please correct me if I am wrong, I believe that is what I read in one of your prior posts)?

The definition of "Vacation":
define: vacation - Bing


> va·ca·tion
> [vāˈkāSHən, və-]
> NOUN
> NORTH AMERICAN
> an extended period of recreation, especially one spent away from home or in traveling:


It would appear as though you are indeed on vacation. An extended, retirement based vacation, but a vacation nonetheless. Which is awesome btw, nothing wrong at all with that - but it is what it is, no?



> You mentioned I should move. Guess what as the captain of my boat my first obligation is to keep my boat safe and those living on her. I specifically cited an instance where to move the boat would place both the boat and me at risk. BTW the boat is a major asset for me. I worked my whole life to afford her. This is true for many if not most of the cruising community. Some are part time cruisers as they need to periodically work to support their major asset- their boat- but they too follow basic principles of good seamanship and avoid placing their boat or theirselves at risk.


Ok, clearly I missed some part of the discussion, as I was discussing nuisance noises in the anchorage which have nothing to do with personal safety. I'm unclear where this particular turn of the conversation stems from.

If there is no emergency, and someone is making noise that doesn't break any law and you don't like it, it would indeed be on you to move on to another location that is more to your liking. What else could you possibly do other than either live with it or move under that scenario?



> Your statements do not reflect the reality of many cruisers lives. Many live in their boats (e.g. houses). Commonly in U.S. waters during the summers and above 40N during hurricane season. Then in the Caribbean after Nov 1 as hurricane comes to a close.


I have to disagree. Cruisers (imo) are want to delude themselves into believing they are doing something other than recreational travel and nautical tourism. Something more "noble" than that. I too once believed that to be true, and I do get the sentiment. It's hard not to see it that way when you immerse yourself in all the literature and sailing culture, but for me the delusion came to an end when I realized that with the exception of the very few, the very vast majority of cruisers are simply out there for an extended period of time on vacation. Again, nothing wrong with that at all, that's great, but it is what is, no?

Very few live their actual entire lives dedicated to the sea. Almost all who are actually out there are either retired and traveling (no different than those who traverse the nation in an RV snapping cheesy pics in front of landmarks), youngish and wealthy enough to actually "live the dream" in spite of reality for the everyman (think: Windtraveler), or boat bums who really don't go very far but still live on a boat. Sure, some go before retirement and don't fall into the aforementioned categories, but they are the exception, not the rule. We both know what the typical anchorage demographic is, lets not pretend it's anything other than what it really is.



> I hope this post allows you to view cruisers in a different light


I like sailboats, and I like the notion of cruising, I'm just no longer in the bubble and I tend to see the whole scene a bit more objectively these days. Cruisers (again, imo), have this general self inflicted mystique and legend that while somewhat true (yes, cruisers can often be very good to one another while underway and "out there"), seems to not quite live up to the hype. A simple trip to West Marine, Giant, Bacon or any of the local marinas where you might encounter the cruiser often bears out the fact that they are just like the rest of us out here. If the cruising demeanor transfered to land and non cruising, I might see it differently. It doesn't though, which lends to an air of phoniness that I personally find somewhat ugly.

Hell, just sit back and watch how cruisers judge each other when entering the anchorage and dropping the hook. I've been on a lot of boats where the comments are, lets just say, not very nice. Cruising culture has this duality thing going on that I don't believe gets acknowledged very much, and would do better if it was. Better yet, just read this thread and the outrage expressed at those with a wind gen that makes a bit of noise...



> Minnie cites a considerate soul. I've been struck how nearly universally the cruising community has been helpful. I routinely help other cruisers with sharing tools, labor or my limited knowledge and have routinely received in kind. This occurs without request but rather upon awareness of need.


I would agree, sailors can be very helpful and nice. They can also be very judgmental, condescending, and outright rude. Try completely refitting a boat on the hard in a working marina and how many helpful sailors will sidle up and tell you exactly how you are doing it wrong. Again, a complete reflection of society as a whole and an example of how it's basically the same in any sub culture scene. All sub cultures basically have the same MO as cruisers - mostly helpful, often judgmental, and a pretty standard reflection of society as a whole.



> Please realize I'm not talking about halyard slap nor hearing music I don't like. Rather noise pollution at a level it interrupts sleep,or annoys people to a level it impedes their being able to function.


I did acknowledge that there is of course a level where it's obviously rude and wrong. Halyard slap is one of those things that imo doesn't qualify, and it's a very real "peeve" of many cruisers. I personally witnessed a cruiser board another's boat and tie off halyards to lifelines. Mind you, a strangers boat, trespassing on another private property because of something as benign as a halyard hitting a mast. Granted this was in a marina but still.. I think even Windtraveler blogged proudly about doing this as well.

Look, at the end of the day I still like boats, I generally like sailors, and I am not trying to tear down the scene. I just think you guys can get a bit deluded and hypocritical at times, and sometimes I comment on it. Doesn't mean I am anti cruising or anti sailing. It just means I am no longer a dedicated believer in all of the party line. No harm, no foul intended.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

chrisncate said:


> I went back through some of your posts and read a bit on what you're doing out there.
> 
> You're retired and cruising, correct? You're living aboard, while you cruise to different locations? You aren't cruising to locations based on employment, but rather pleasure and a desire to see these locations in a retired and cruising capacity? You still have a land home (please correct me if I am wrong, I believe that is what I read in one of your prior posts)?
> 
> ...


This post reminds me of a charter guest who woke me at 4AM to ask me to do something about the roosters crowing ashore at Norman or Peter Island, saying they were keeping her awake. 
I calmly asked her exactly what she would like me to do. She looked at me in exasperation and I asked her how she slept through the night at her home, thinking of police cars, ambulances and car alarms, etc. She said, "We live in a stone house with 2 foot thick walls in northern Canada. We can't hear anything, not even a winter storm, in our home."
Some people will just never understand.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

capta said:


> This post reminds me of a charter guest who woke me at 4AM to ask me to do something about the roosters crowing ashore at Norman or Peter Island, saying they were keeping her awake.
> I calmly asked her exactly what she would like me to do. She looked at me in exasperation and I asked her how she slept through the night at her home, thinking of police cars, ambulances and car alarms, etc. She said, "We live in a stone house with 2 foot thick walls in northern Canada. We can't hear anything, not even a winter storm, in our home."
> Some people will just never understand.


:: polite golf clap ::

Wow, very insightful and super thoughtful post. Really makes one think and blows my entire concept of the cruising bubble right out of the water.

Mind, blown. Thank you!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm not buying the argument that a cruiser is on vacation and more than someone who splits their time between two houses is on vacation in one of them. In fact, I know a guy with four houses/condos and he spends roughly a quarter of the year in each.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

*No rest for the wicked*

First noise pollution on the water, now on the forum.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

C- I find your opinion about ones home flies in the face of reality. In the last year I've spent more nights sleeping in my boat then the house. Have cooked more meals on the boat. Have spent more time on the boat. According to my tax accountant I can choose either as my principle residence. According to the government I can get my drivers license or use either as my legal address. In short, even now as we are waiting to sell the house, the government seems to have no problem considering the boat as my home. Why do you? Will you think about this differently when next year the house sells and the wife is fully retired? If so don't you see this is not logical? Even if you do not don't you see even now the dirt house is serving as the "vacation home" for all practical purposes?
Regardless, you may wish to educate yourself about the health impact of noise pollution. It's surprising to what degree even modest background sound negatively impacts. 
The story about chickens gave me a laugh. It's amazing how egocentric some people are on both the receiving and generating side of noise. Fundamentally, that's the issue. Egocentric behavior. I have no issue with the people down for a week making a racket. I figure they work hard to have the money for party time and it maybe their one week in the year to do so. I figure I'm there for months and they are for days. They need to pack it in during their brief time in paradise. I figure those vacation dollars support the local economy. Still, not allowing others to sleep is just plain rude. 
Up north I still see no reason to run generators or have music/radio in the cockpit before 8a or after 10p. Nor do I see any reason to buzz boats at hull speed in an anchorage or with a dinghy. Egocentricity.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

chrisncate said:


> :: polite golf clap ::
> 
> Wow, very insightful and super thoughtful post. Really makes one think and blows my entire concept of the cruising bubble right out of the water.
> 
> Mind, blown. Thank you!


As I said, "Some people will just never understand."


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

So they neighbour's dog barked at some passing crows.Don't know what he said but the crows took offence and being mimics, barked back.That really pissed off ruefus and barking escalated. Now I can hardly hear the eagles chatting with the seagull overhead in mortal combat. What can I do but complain?


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

chrisncate said:


> Cruisers (imo) are want to delude themselves into believing they are doing something other than recreational travel and nautical tourism. Something more "noble" than that. I too once believed that to be true,
> I like sailboats, and I like the notion of cruising, I'm just no longer in the bubble....Cruisers (again, imo), have this general self inflicted mystique and legend that while somewhat true (yes, cruisers can often be very good to one another while underway and "out there"), seems to not quite live up to the hype.
> Hell, just sit back and watch how cruisers judge each other when entering the anchorage and dropping the hook. I've been on a lot of boats where the comments are, lets just say, not very nice.
> 
> I would agree, sailors can be very helpful and nice. They can also be very judgmental, condescending, and outright rude. I am no longer a dedicated believer in all of the party line. No harm, no foul intended.


I understand, you've been hurt. By a sailor apparently. :sailing-pilgrims:

And you are trying get revenge for your butt hurt disappointment on a forum by annoying some random sailor who never did anything to you, but just has a complaint.

That's your point, isn't it?


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> I understand, you've been hurt. By a sailor apparently. :sailing-pilgrims:
> 
> And you are trying get revenge for your butt hurt disappointment on a forum by annoying some random sailor who never did anything to you, but just has a complaint.
> 
> That's your point, isn't it?


I can't really blame you for lashing out, although your amateur Freudian diagnostics are trite to put it mildly. No one wants to hear any unpleasant truths about something as ethereal as the The Cruising Dream™, I completely get that. The whole shebang is based on an E-ticket fantasyland ride where getting away from it all in a tropical paradise and being that rugged, self sustaining individualist in charge of your own vessel and destiny is of course the order of the day.

A dose of any actual reality that might not pleasantly compliment the narrative is pretty much completely counter to the entire thing, especially if that reality brings up any ugly cracks in the diamond like zirconia finish of The Cruising Dream™.

It's a shame though, if you could just get passed the personal affront you feel when anyone has the audacity to discuss certain cruising realities, I still believe it's worth discussing some of what is sold vs what you actually get.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Wow, this thread has really gone off the deep end with the personal attacks backed up by amateur psychoanalysis.

The whole issue about noise pollution is about the lack of what we old timers called "manners" or "etiquette', which are hallmarks of a civilized society. It's about those folks who don't show any consideration of their impact on others. 

You might argue about the rules of etiquette, but the operative principle is consideration of others. Folks who don't tie off their halyards, stop their wind generators, blast their stereo, or operate gas generators in when in someone else's face are jerks. 

We might not have a way to eliminate jerks, but we certainly don't have to rationalize their bad behavior in this thread.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

I think halyard noise sounds salty. I always liked it.


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

Ear plugs. 

Add Mickey Mouse ears for double protection if needed.

Put your own music on, with your ear buds in.

Move to a different anchorage or mooring tomorrow, or stay out hove to.

Sometimes you have neighbors you enjoy and sometimes you don't. True on land and sea. Sometimes within your own crew.

Fussing about this seems trivial.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

chrisncate said:


> I think halyard noise sounds salty. I always liked it.


You REALLY REALLY just don't get it, do you? 
Now you are just being a troll.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

capta said:


> You REALLY REALLY just don't get it, do you?
> Now you are just being a troll.


Lol, breaking a cardinal rule huh?

Here, hold my beer as I walk down the companionway facing into the salon as I do it...

Also, would you mind storing my rolling, non soft luggage bag in that locker over there? Thanks!

EDIT - On a serious note, if you need to sleep in a sensory depravation tank, why are you on a boat to begin with? Are boat sounds really so awful?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

chrisncate said:


> EDIT - On a serious note, if you need to sleep in a sensory depravation (deprivation) tank, why are you on a boat to begin with? Are boat sounds really so awful?


Who said anything about SLEEP? I started this thread because my wife and I couldn't converse in a normal voice in our own cockpit because others had chosen to insinuate themselves into the center of the anchorage, even though they were well aware that their wingens make a horrendous racket.
Like I keep saying, you jut don't get it, do you?


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## XSrcing (Aug 22, 2015)

You're grumpy.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

capta said:


> Who said anything about SLEEP? I started this thread because my wife and I couldn't converse in a normal voice in our own cockpit because others had chosen to insinuate themselves into the center of the anchorage, even though they were well aware that their wingens make a horrendous racket.
> Like I keep saying, you jut don't get it, do you?


I get it just fine. You are very upset that you had to be subjected to the noise of a wind generator.

Oh the humanity.

#cruiserslivesmatter


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## BillB36 (May 4, 2015)

Don't feed the troll. 

Do search and you will see that when things don't go the way they want they will just take their toys and leave the sand box. Chrisncate have messed up the cohesiveness of multiple threads here by deleting their posts and leaving three periods (...) in place of what was a post. Real mature. 

Like smackdaddy, chrisncate are here only to get under the skin of anyone they can. That is called trolling. They way these characters are allowed to continually ruin sailnet is just sad and it is why I choose to mostly read not post.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

As I previously stated. Obviously chriscate is part of the problem and I have a suggestion where you can stick that finger.
Jim


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

BillB36 said:


> Don't feed the troll.
> 
> Do search and you will see that when things don't go the way they want they will just take their toys and leave the sand box. Chrisncate have messed up the cohesiveness of multiple threads here by deleting their posts and leaving three periods (...) in place of what was a post. Real mature.
> 
> Like smackdaddy, chrisncate are here only to get under the skin of anyone they can. That is called trolling. They way these characters are allowed to continually ruin sailnet is just sad and it is why I choose to mostly read not post.


Smack is hardly a problem on sailnet, and frankly that statement is really odd in light of his dedication to sailing and many posts boosting both sailnet and sailing.

Regarding myself, sure, I have deleted some prior posts (none lately though), not to sure what any of that has to do with this thread though. At any rate, attacking the poster rather than discussing the posts themselves is trolling. If you can't have a rational discussion where you may encounter opposing viewpoints, maybe the problem is you.

Just a thought.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

jimrafford said:


> As I previously stated. Obviously chriscate is part of the problem and I have a suggestion where you can stick that finger.
> Jim


Nice. That's that laid back cruiser vibe I'm talking about. If a little counter discussion can enrage some of you to the point of personal insults while on the Internet, I shudder to think what rage might be encountered from you when you encounter a noisy wind gen.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

For those that say one should live and let live, how many times have you slept at anchor on a lengthy cruise? I suspect I'm going on a few thousand evenings.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> Sure, there is a level of rude that is universally unacceptable. No one argues against that. But whining endlessly online about halyard slap? Audible music past sundown? A wind generator? This is where the cruising set imo needs to get a grip and just suck it up already.


Just a hunch, but I'd guess that had you ever managed to get your engineless 30-footer down the ICW, and cruise some of the places where those Screaming Banshees that the OP is referring to are considerably more prevalent than the windless Chesapeake, you'd likely be bitching about them like many of the rest of us...

Not many cruisers take as drastic a measure as removing their diesels in part to be relieved of _"the stink"_ they produce, after all... So, if your ears are anywhere near as sensitive as your nostrils apparently are, well... just sayin'...

;-)


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Just a hunch, but I'd guess that had you ever managed to get your engineless 30-footer down the ICW, and cruise some of the places where those Screaming Banshees that the OP is referring to are considerably more prevalent than the windless Chesapeake, you'd likely be bitching about them like many of the rest of us...
> 
> Not many cruisers take as drastic a measure as removing their diesels in part to be relieved of _"the stink"_ they produce, after all... So, if your ears are anywhere near as sensitive as your nostrils apparently are, well... just sayin'...
> 
> ;-)


The Chesapeake is windless?

So what you're saying is you have to travel far to really understand an anchorage, local anchorages aren't the same as far flung ones. Regardless if local anchorages have the same wind gens, gas gens and other audible nuisances. Huh, did not know that, thanks!

As for owning motor less boats, mine had a motor so... ?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> The Chesapeake is windless?


Comparatively speaking, I'd say it is...



chrisncate said:


> So what you're saying is you have to travel far to really understand an anchorage, local anchorages aren't the same as far flung ones. Regardless if local anchorages have the same wind gens, gas gens and other audible nuisances...


The OP is posting from the Eastern Caribbean... There is no comparison between the average winds in places like the Bahamas and Caribbean, and the Chesapeake and Long Island Sound, in their respective sailing/cruising seasons...

As a result, the use of windgens is not nearly as widespread in the Chesapeake, for instance, as it is in the cruising grounds that snowbirds flock to. Relatively few 'locals' who limit their seasonal sailing to places like the Bay, or LIS, are sailing boats that are sporting windgens, and with good reason... Looking around Annapolis this weekend, it's not the boats sitting in marinas that are so equipped, but rather the snowbirds starting their migration to places where the wind actually blows, and such gear actually has some utility...

Cruising New England in the summer, it would be an extremely rare event for me to be bothered, or to even notice, the noise from another boat's windgen... They simply aren't that prevalent, and the breeze just isn't that consistent... It's when I get down to the Bahamas or thereabouts, where one typically begins to take notice of those making a racket... The windgen on my boat only gets deployed when breeze is actually blowing, and I'd wager that 8 out of every 10 days it's been humming, the water was a Tropical hue, not a Chesapeake brown...



chrisncate said:


> Huh, did not know that, thanks!


Glad I could be of assistance...

;-)


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Comparatively speaking, I'd say it is...
> 
> The OP is posting from the Eastern Caribbean... There is no comparison between the average winds in places like the Bahamas and Caribbean, and the Chesapeake and Long Island Sound, in their respective sailing/cruising seasons...
> 
> ...


OP ought to get some cell video of the offending wind gen and accompanying noise and post it here. If it's as bad as he said from the cockpit perspective, it'd be interesting to see and hear here in the thread.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Jon of course you're right but the last few weeks we been getting enough wind to run the boat in R.I. Suspect those flocking to Hampton will get their electrons from wind and no need to run the genset.


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

chrisncate said:


> I think halyard noise sounds salty. I always liked it.


You, sir, are among the very, very few.

************************
************************

The Romantic Sound Of Clanging Halyards
Sunday, November 28, 2004
By Capt. Alan Hugenot 
G:\C\Stu Boat\C34\Halyards_The Romantic Sound Of Clanging....doc
Have you ever been woken up at night while sleeping in a marina because the neighboring sailboat's halyards were banging against the mast in the wind? 
If you have ever tried to sleep through this constant noise, which is like someone continuously knocking on your door, then you know the dilemma which this causes for any poor sailor trying to sleep nearby. 
Of course, the skipper of the offending boat is not there to hear the incessant slap, slap, slap, and he probably wants to keep those halyards ready to hoist sail as soon as he comes aboard, totally unaware that by doing so he is creating a nerve-racking noise machine. 
So what can you do? 
You can't sleep and you are conflicted about what action to take. 
You know that if you go aboard his boat and swing the halyards outboard around the spreader before making them fast again that the incessant slap will stop. And, you wonder why the inconsiderate skipper did not do that before he stowed his boat. 
Maybe you also know that he only comes down to the marina once a month or even less to check his boat. You know he is totally unaware that you have to listen to his halyards going slap, clang, slap, clang every night. 
On the other hand if you go aboard his boat to fix the problem, it will actually be trespassing - not quite breaking and entering - but trespassing none the less. 
When he comes back to the boat, he may even get angry at the "prankster" who tangled his halyards around the spreaders, thinking "who would do such a thing, just to confound him." He, of course, never realizing the true reason unless you tell him. 
Yet, from a different perspective you might only be a "good Samaritan." 
For instance, if the halyard were loose and about to carry away through the top of the mast, then that same skipper would want you to quickly go aboard his boat (even though he had not given you permission) and "properly" secure it. 
That simple act of neighborly seamanship would save him the grief of having to go aloft to re-thread the halyard through the top of the mast. 
So wouldn't it be the same thing here? 
His halyard is clearly wearing itself out beating against the mast, and if you will just "properly" stow it for him, then it will not wear out as quickly. Also your nerves won't wear out as quickly either. 
This is no small problem. 
I have lived aboard for several years, in both Seattle, Wash. and San Francisco, and have also spent a night or two in nearly every marina from San Diego to Seward, Alaska. In every one there are these slapping halyards. 
At first you might think that a polite word to the offending skipper would solve the problem. 
But, a couple of times when I asked the owner of an offending boat if they could take a moment before going ashore to quiet their halyards by rigging them away from the masts, they became defensive. 
They acted like I was being rude for butting into their business, criticizing their seamanship. 
They arrogantly pointed out that they knew what they were doing, had studied proper halyard techniques, and had graduated from ASA or US Sailing. They were not going to quiet their halyards by rigging them outboard. 
Besides who was I to tell them anything. 
In one case the offending skipper said that "If they found their halyards any different than how they chose to leave them" then they would blame me for trespassing on their boat, and would report it to the marina manager. 
After this encounter, I could not stop the noise from his boat, and wished I had never spoken to him about it. 
I knew that if I had never brought it up, I could have quieted his halyards and he would not know who "fouled" his lines. 
Instead, I changed marinas and learned the lesson that my safest bet was to quiet all offending halyards myself, and do so without telling the owner that I was the culprit. 
This "don't ask, don't tell" policy allowed me to sleep, and several weeks later when the offending skipper turned up to sail his boat I was not there to hear his wrath about "Whoever fouled his halyards was going to catch hell." 
I guess it comes down to who is more inconsiderate: Me for trespassing on his boat, or him for leaving the noisy halyard slapping against the mast. 
It is such a simple thing to just tie the halyards off on the shrouds, or swinging them around the spreaders. Maybe 60 seconds to quiet every halyard on the boat. 
Another, idea is to use a shock cord to pull them over toward the shrouds and away from the mast, and there are dozens of other ways to stop the slap, slap, slap. 
Of course no way am I advocating that you climb on someone's boat and adjust their halyards. Trespassing is something I would never encourage you to do. 
Several times in marina parking lots I have heard novice boaters saying "Wow, listen to the clanging of the all the sailboats in the wind. Isn't it romantic." 
So maybe it is a matter of perspective, or rather ignorance of the harm that may be caused by what may be romantic to one person and pollution to another, depending upon perspective. 
It baffles me to no end why sailing instructors don't teach this simple courtesy to their students. 
It seems that simple courtesy should always be part of every lesson for novice sailors. 
We live pretty close together on the water, which means we need to cultivate proper manners and respect for our fellow boaters. Learning how to rig our boat so that it does not create undue noise pollution should be part of every sailing lesson. 
Actually, in California the boating laws are beginning to take notice of noise pollution. 
Beginning in the fall of 2004 agencies will begin to enforce a new law that makes it illegal to have a power boat that is too noisy. 
Maybe this idea that noise pollution on the water is a crime can be stretched to include sailboats that are too noisy. Clang, slap, clang - but it's so romantic. Yea, right.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm among the group of people who believe that little good comes from asking the a-holes who leave their halyards slapping to please do something about it (yes a-holes is the only way to describe them). My experience has been that they don't secure them when politely asked (even though some may make an attempt once). To date NONE of the people I've asked took care of the banging line afterward.

But it seems that after returning to the boat a few times to find someone has moved their banging lines that even an a-hole finally starts to feel some type of embarrassment and starts to do it them selves. Or it pisses them off more that someone is "trespassing" on their boat to the point that they finally do it themselves. I know not which and don't care!


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Tell you how I fixed a sloppy halyard problem. I complain, owner says 'what do you want me to do about it? I, 6' 7" angry and rifle in hand ,suggest 'Stand back, I'll try not to hit the mast.'


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

I realize I am in the minority, no ambiguity there. 

Curious how those who loathe halyard noise deal with the other noises, water slapping the hull, wind whistling through the rigging, the fridge cycling on and off etc. If you hate the halyard to such a degree, how on earth do you deal with all of the other noise pollution? Water slapping the hull can be really loud, as can lines creaking as the boat moves around in the slip...?


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I always carry earplugs. It's amazing how well they work. And I also practice tuning out. It comes handy outside boating as well. Like being able to tune out a nagging spouse. The more you focus on the noise, the more it drives you mad.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

krisscross said:


> I always carry earplugs. It's amazing how well they work. And I also practice tuning out. It comes handy outside boating as well. Like being able to tune out a nagging spouse. The more you focus on the noise, the more it drives you mad.


Huh, a solution that costs about a buck or less. Begs the question why those in angst about the wind gen never thought of that.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

chrisncate said:


> I realize I am in the minority, no ambiguity there.
> 
> Curious how those who loathe halyard noise deal with the other noises, water slapping the hull, wind whistling through the rigging, the fridge cycling on and off etc. If you hate the halyard to such a degree, how on earth do you deal with all of the other noise pollution? Water slapping the hull can be really loud, as can lines creaking as the boat moves around in the slip...?


A noise that can not be controlled is a lot different than one that can be controlled easy in the world of tolerance. Your comparison is basically saying "it doesn't matter how much noise I make because a butterfly is flapping its' wings".


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

krisscross said:


> I always carry earplugs. It's amazing how well they work. ......


I have a supply aboard. I will use them in the most dire circumstances, but I do not like them. After all these years on the water, I'm tuned to both feel and hear anomalies. I'm sure I'm not alone, most sailors can identify every single little noise, pump running, etc, and know when its not right. I would rather be alert, even when sleeping.

I was awakened in my sleep at 4am this past summer, when another boat chafed off her mooring and was pushed into us. I do not recall hearing a crash, I only recall "feeling" the sideways movement, in my sleep, that was so unusual. Boats roll side to side and fore to aft, they don't slide side to side. Every little nuance counts. Ear plugs remove that ability.

btw, I find my guests don't like wearing them either and I leave them in little individually wrapped bags in their staterooms.


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

I am surprised that this thread is still alive. 

Seems to me that there are some obvious differences of opinion and maybe folks can simply move on rather than have it devolve into personal attacks and sarcasm.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> A noise that can not be controlled is a lot different than one that can be controlled easy in the world of tolerance. Your comparison is basically saying "it doesn't matter how much noise I make because a butterfly is flapping its' wings".


Na, that's not what my comparison is saying at all. Just wondering how the desired goldilocks zone is mentally maintained in light of other noises.

To your point, what exactly is the difference between noises that can be controlled vs those that cannot? Noise is still noise, so I assume it's a state of mind.

Which naturally leads to the question - how much of halyard noise angst is about angst over those who engage in breaking some anchoring code more than the actual noise itself? If noise is noise either way, is this in some part a control issue rather than simply a noise issue?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

chrisncate said:


> To your point, what exactly is the difference between noises that can be controlled vs those that cannot? Noise is still noise, so I assume it's a state of mind.


You know for a while there some posts on this thread and in another had me thinking you were a reasonable person. But I'm now pretty sure you are determined to make sure no one feels this way.

Yes noise is noise, as in they are all sound. If you really don't have a clue as to the differences between preventable noises and ones that can not be controlled and how the difference makes people feel about it the, then you probably fall into a category of people best avoided.


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

chrisncate said:


> Huh, a solution that costs about a buck or less. Begs the question why those in angst about the wind gen never thought of that.


Simply because if you go back to the OP, the skipper was trying to talk to his mate.

Hard to hear each other with earplugs.

Or would you suggest lip reading?

It's a simple matter of courtesy.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> You know for a while there some posts on this thread and in another had me thinking you were a reasonable person. But I'm now pretty sure you are determined to make sure no one feels this way.
> 
> Yes noise is noise, as in they are all sound. If you really don't have a clue as to the differences between preventable noises and ones that can not be controlled and how the difference makes people feel about it the, then you probably fall into a category of people best avoided.


Oh come on now, you can't just attack me personally ever time I say something you don't like (by you I mean you as well as posters in the thread).

There is indeed a cruising "code" of sorts, which covers many things including halyard ritual. If you disagree with what I am saying, put forth a counter point. I am more than willing to just discuss things without catching feelings and getting bent out of shape. It'd be nice if you did the same.



Stu Jackson said:


> Simply because if you go back to the OP, the skipper was trying to talk to his mate.
> 
> Hard to hear each other with earplugs.
> 
> ...


In the OP's case, sure. Broadly speaking however, there is an argument for possibly carrying earplugs for those irritating noises. The argument made by a poster here that the cruiser needs to keep his ears open for changes in routine sounds is a sound argument at least (no pun intended).


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

chrisncate said:


> Oh come on now, you can't just attack me personally ever time I say something you don't like (by you I mean you as well as posters in the thread).
> 
> If you disagree with what I am saying, put forth a counter point. I am more than willing to just discuss things without catching feelings and getting bent out of shape. It'd be nice if you did the same.


I think not. I agreed with you earlier, but now know it isn't a discussion with you. Your point is just that the group is wrong and people should do whatever they want because they have as much right to do so as the group rules.


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## Aswayze (Apr 5, 2015)

I have been following this thread since the beginning and I am starting to get the feeling that I am not going to get along with my fellow cruisers. 

I do not make noise. 

I do not listen to music. 

I do not have a wind gen. 

I am, however intolerant of those who would go OUTSIDE and expect the world to be quiet for them. 

I moved out of the suburbs to get away from people like that. 

I am, by the way, a completely nice and friendly fellow but if someone came toodling over to my boat bitching about something, they should expect to get hit in the face with whatever the cheapest thing in my cockpit at the time is.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Again, how many times have the offended or non-offended parties actually slept with banging halyards or wind generators making substantial noise? It might put their position in perspective. 

With thousands of nights at anchor, I'm going to say I've endured the rotten things hundreds of times.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> I think not. I agreed with you earlier, but now know it isn't a discussion with you. Your point is just that the group is wrong and people should do whatever they want because they have as much right to do so as the group rules.


Well, no, you have it wrong actually. My only point (if you need me to even have a point rather than just having an ongoing discussion) is that while there is of course a level of rude regarding noise, where exactly is that line and who decides what the line is.

Other types of boaters also use anchorages, and may not share any of the philosophical leanings of the sailor. For sailors to declare the right to declare the rules of the anchorage is a topic worthy of discussing. And again, before someone posts yet another "common sense" post regarding noise, I already noted - I get that, of course there is a level of rude that is universal. Duh. What isn't universal however, are noises that are questionable. Like wind gens, halyards, music, etc. The line isn't as clear as many here want to huff and puff that it is.

For some reason, even trying to discuss this lands me personal attacks, personal diagnosis, angry declarations of my hidden agenda etc. I mean, project much do we? Geez.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Again, how many times have the offended or non-offended parties actually slept with banging halyards or wind generators making substantial noise? It might put their position in perspective.
> 
> With thousands of nights at anchor, I'm going to say I've endured the rotten things hundreds of times.


I think even one night at anchor with any of the various noises qualifies a person to be able to comment on the topic. Noise is noise, and once you've slept in an anchorage where you hear noises from others, that's pretty much it. You get it at that point.

Time served has little to add to any perspective, other than repetition and for some, a clearly simmering red rage over the matter.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

As I mentioned earlier knowing and hearing the normal sounds of my boat is comforting. But more important knowing and hearing a novel sound is often the alert that wakes you or brings you on deck. Earplugs impede this basic safety factor. They are used on my boat on passage given you know the watch is attuned and monitoring the sounds of the vessel and surrounds.
Base sounds often cause things to vibrate. E.g. Feeling the base when "listening" to an acoustic pipe organ in a stone cathedral and feel it in your bones. Or how you hear a "tuners" base when he drives by at quite some distance from you with the windows closed. You hear the thump but little else. Earplugs do little to attenuate such base sounds.
Loud sound is not just annoying but harmful. This is recognized in the Geneva convention. Even relatively brief exposure causes loss of hair cells in your cochlea with resultant hearing loss. 
Halyard slap is annoying but not infrequently when a cruiser states they were tortured by the loud sounds egocentric boater made depending on setting, volume and frequency they may not be far from the truth. 
C as you may note I have not posted anything personally disparaging at any point but I must say your premise is specious in the extreme. Yes there are annoyances but admit there is also behavior beyond the pale as regards noise pollution.


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

I find the noises that disturb my sleep at anchor to mostly be of my own making...such as when I think I have the dinghy tied off to leeward in a fashion I think will keep it away from the boat, and the wind shifts and it is now to windward - tap, tap, tapping against the mothership hull.


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

Aswayze said:


> I am, by the way, a completely nice and friendly fellow
> 
> but if someone came toodling over to my boat bitching about something, they should expect to get hit in the face with whatever the cheapest thing in my cockpit at the time is.


Those two statements seem to be completely at odds with one another.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

eldonbest said:


> My brother on s/v Andante "stalls" his "Air Marine" wind gen by connecting both outlet leads. No noise, and no damage. I solved my halyard slapping by simply moving them away from the spar to opposing life lines and stanchions.


Life is so easy when people use their brain.


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## XSrcing (Aug 22, 2015)

Are any of you people married? Ever since I tied the knot I have perfected selective listening. I simply don't hear anything that I don't want to. Just ask my wife.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> *I think even one night at anchor with any of the various noises qualifies a person to be able to comment on the topic.* Noise is noise, and once you've slept in an anchorage where you hear noises from others, that's pretty much it. You get it at that point.
> 
> *Time served has little to add to any perspective*, other than repetition and for some, a clearly simmering red rage over the matter.


C'mon, now you're just being silly ;-)

Certainly, while one with such limited experience may be _entitled_ to comment, but that doesn't mean that such opinions will be particularly _informed_... Such a blanket assertion seems akin to saying once one has completed a passage across the Stream from Miami to Bimini, one pretty much "gets" what offshore sailing is all about... ;-)

By continuing to lump all noise produced by wind generators as being equal in this thread, it's pretty obvious you've never experienced the racket that can be produced by the sort of device I believe the OP was describing...

I've been sailing to and cruising the coast of Maine for years, many nights spent in anchorages and harbors both popular, and secluded... I thought I had pretty much seen it all when it comes to cruising Maine, and never would have dreamed it possible that a Hinckley SW 42 would arrive at the time and place pictured below, and as soon as the hook was set, fire up a Honda generator on deck, and run it until well after dark...

And yet, that it precisely what I was treated to at this moment, something the scores of nights spent at anchor in Maine previously had not prepared me for... Obviously, I had not yet seen it all...










Nor, have I ever before heard a cruiser running a Honda 2000 until 2200 a couple of boatlengths off D Dock at Port Annapolis... until a few nights ago, that is... Had he been doing so on Friday night during that frontal passage, I probably never would have noticed it, but the night in question was perfectly still, so the sound carried very well... Didn't really bother me, but I was simply surprised by the lack of courtesy being exhibited... But once again, I experienced another 'first' in that particular spot where I've spent a considerable amount of time in recent years, and it took a hell of a lot longer than one night to appreciate the full range of behavior one might see in that particular spot...


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

I don't think most posters here comprehend the noise level the OP is talking about.
Cheap 3 blade wind generators make a very high pitched whine that is very unpleasant. I did a ton of research to find one that was quiet.
I had an night I will never forget a few years back.
We were anchored in Hadley Harbor. A very quiet small harbor on an island owned by the Forbes family that hasn't changed much since 1930.
A yacht club from the gold cost of ct showed up and pretty much took over the anchorage. Two 40' express cruiser power boats anchored and rafted 100' in front of us. After an evening of dingy racing in the anchorage, not sail driven, and cocktail parties the owners of the two power boats returned. At sunset they both fired up their generators. The exhausts were on both their hulls between both boats. They both went below and I assume passed out and left the generators running all night. The sound echoing off their hulls was incredible. We were unable to sleep at all. It took two days for me to feel ok again.
I emailed pictures and a lovely message to the yacht club to let them know I would extend the same consideration to any of their members in the future.
Jim


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Certainly, while one with such limited experience may be _entitled_ to comment, but that doesn't mean that such opinions will be particularly _informed_... Such a blanket assertion seems akin to saying once one has completed a passage across the Stream from Miami to Bimini, one pretty much "gets" what offshore sailing is all about... ;-)


No one is comparing examples that are apples and oranges. Perhaps it may seem akin (to you), but a quick examination shows it is not. One can sail a lifetime and never learn all the nuance to ocean sailing long distances. One does not need a lifetime to experience nuisance noise in an anchorage and be able to understand it fully and completely.



> By continuing to lump all noise produced by wind generators as being equal in this thread, it's pretty obvious you've never experienced the racket that can be produced by the sort of device I believe the OP was describing...


Not sure where you picked up the idea that I lumped all things noise related as being equal? As for pretty obvious, I address that in my next paragraph.



> I've been sailing to and cruising the coast of Maine for years, many nights spent in anchorages and harbors both popular, and secluded... I thought I had pretty much seen it all when it comes to cruising Maine, and never would have dreamed it possible that a Hinckley SW 42 would arrive at the time and place pictured below, and as soon as the hook was set, fire up a Honda generator on deck, and run it until well after dark...
> 
> And yet, that it precisely what I was treated to at this moment, something the scores of nights spent at anchor in Maine previously had not prepared me for... Obviously, I had not yet seen it all...
> 
> Nor, have I ever before heard a cruiser running a Honda 2000 until 2200 a couple of boatlengths off D Dock at Port Annapolis... until a few nights ago, that is... Had he been doing so on Friday night during that frontal passage, I probably never would have noticed it, but the night in question was perfectly still, so the sound carried very well... Didn't really bother me, but I was simply surprised by the lack of courtesy being exhibited... But once again, I experienced another 'first' in that particular spot where I've spent a considerable amount of time in recent years, and it took a hell of a lot longer than one night to appreciate the full range of behavior one might see in that particular spot...


I have to point out that both examples you note aren't very odd or unusual at all, and neither highlight an example of years of experience bringing these types of examples to light. You're pointing out two examples of rude boat behavior, and neither example isn't anything that makes me go "wow".

I too have witnessed boats running a generator (gas in both cases) right off the dock (two examples that I remember clearly - one on the Magothy where I once had a slip, and once in Annapolis down on Spa Creek where I also once had a slip). Both examples were boats anchored pretty close to the marina, and both examples were when we were on the boat for the evening in the slip.

The other example you noted is probably the most common of the rude generator set. Pulling into the anchorage and firing it up. Just not seeing where either of your examples require thousands and thousands of night at anchor to eventually run across. Maybe you could clarify that?

Regarding the pee pee measuring contest often engaged in on Sailnet regarding who's done what and gone farther, I will simply note my experience for those who might read this and not know. I have about 13 years of Chesapeake Bay sailing experience, so all in all my nights at anchor might range in the hundreds. Certainly not the thousands. Lots of anchorages from the lower bay to the upper bay, but nothing abroad or even out of the bay. I do believe I have experienced enough of the variety of a-holes an anchorage may bring, and I do feel qualified enough to be able to comment on the differences between being a whiny sailor who is overly noise sensitive, and being someone who can roll with noises that are reasonable (and not all are of course).










Nice picture. Is it color enhanced?


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## rmtayloriii (Jun 17, 2006)

Its been fun reading this. I don't post much if ever and it has been a long time since I have. I've since switched to power because of proximity and practically of a young family and love for water and destinations.

I've anchored out hundreds of times with my family growing up starting at 4 years old. The solitude looking up at the stars, miles and miles away from city lights and noise, really made me part of who I am. 

A noisy boat in an anchorage without respect for others, no matter what offending repeated noise, is disrespectful of others. Normal people don't need to define what noisy is. If you feel you need to describe what noisy is in more than a few sentences, rethink.

Our last house had a neighbor who had a dog that they repeatedly left outside at night. It was in the country farm fields. I grew up in an area like this. The dog would greet us at bed time and bark and bark and bark all night long, then bark at me when I left to work at 6 am. That damn dog was always in the road too and never would get hit by a car. It was like the dog lived to make noise. It would bark at me when I got the mail, it would bark at me when I went for a run, bark until I ran too far down the road and out of sounds distance.

Repeated conversations with the owner never did much other than a night or two of peace.

I've made noise in an anchorage and have pissed people off when I was younger a couple times...18. Even at that age I knew noise wasn't respectful. I know having a 3 and 5 year old screaming all day isn't healthy for anyone nor is a wind generator making talking to someone next to you impossible. All of that noise is annoying. If you think otherwise please move far away and train your dog not to bark all night like I have trained my dog to not bark without a solution to my dogs noise.

My opinion is that if you run any power generator and it offends peoples around you, you are in the wrong. If you are in a "party anchorage" I would think otherwise. 

If you need to debate what is a party anchorage or quite anchorage is, then go _ yourself


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

rmtayloriii said:


> If you need to debate what is a party anchorage or quite anchorage is, then go _ yourself


There's that cruiser/boater laid back vibe I like so much, thank you for that.

Kudos also for a join date of 06 with 18 posts. Well played.


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## Squareknot (Oct 15, 2015)

In 1988 a large power boat arrived in our quite anchorage with a large generator strapped to his swim platform. Whenever the AC or coffee pot cycled on , the generator would cycle up to handle the load. At 1:30 AM we had had enough and advised him to either turn it off or we ( 5 family's of sailboats) were going to join him for the rest of the night. He advised us he was big shot prosecutor from the Western Shore of Maryland and had every right to run his generator as he pleased, and we were not invited aboard his vessel. At 3:30 am ,a former Navy Seal ( Vietnam Veteran) approached the swim platform 
with a large tube of toothpaste and deposited it into the oil fill port of his generator. The next time it cycled on the toothpaste proceeded to devour the rings, valve guides, oil pump, and main journal bearings of the generator. Needless to say the said vessel never returned to Tim's Creek and the quite and tranquility returned to this favorite upper shore anchorage!


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Squareknot said:


> In 1988 a large power boat arrived in our quite anchorage with a large generator strapped to his swim platform. Whenever the AC or coffee pot cycled on , the generator would cycle up to handle the load. At 1:30 AM we had had enough and advised him to either turn it off or we ( 5 family's of sailboats) were going to join him for the rest of the night. He advised us he was big shot prosecutor from the Western Shore of Maryland and had every right to run his generator as he pleased, and we were not invited aboard his vessel. At 3:30 am ,a former Navy Seal ( Vietnam Veteran) approached the swim platform
> with a large tube of toothpaste and deposited it into the oil fill port of his generator. The next time it cycled on the toothpaste proceeded to devour the rings, valve guides, oil pump, and main journal bearings of the generator. Needless to say the said vessel never returned to Tim's Creek and the quite and tranquility returned to this favorite upper shore anchorage!


Awesome! Destruction of private property because you don't like the noise being made in a public place. Woo hoo!

The very definition of hero, and definitely worthy of BFS. Everyone agree?

Also, Thanks for registering just to post this great story of heroism. Great first post!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Love the toothpaste story. Can't know if it's true, but it makes the point. 

It is well practiced and understood that there is a right of quiet enjoyment by hotel guests, tenants and the like. The precise definition of that can be difficult, but it's clearly far from doing whatever you like. I don't know where anyone got the idea that sailors were peace loving pacifists. Sailing ships have been used to conquer nations in history. 

If anyone came over and asked that I turn off my genset, I would simply accommodate in a reasonable amount of time. I'm trying to imagine why one would need one running for more than an hour or two anyway.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Love the toothpaste story. Can't know if it's true, but it makes the point.
> 
> It is well practiced and understood that there is a right of quiet enjoyment by hotel guests, tenants and the like. The precise definition of that can be difficult, but it's clearly far from doing whatever you like. I don't know where anyone got the idea that sailors were peace loving pacifists. Sailing ships have been used to conquer nations in history.
> 
> If anyone came over and asked that I turn off my genset, I would simply accommodate in a reasonable amount of time. I'm trying to imagine why one would need one running for more than an hour or two anyway.


Huh, I'm surprised you like that story. You're the last person I'd have thought would get a kick out of breaking a law/vigilante street justice.

Sure, the alleged big shot from that fake story was clearly in the wrong and being totally rude, but causing him thousands in damages to his personal property? You like that idea?


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Play nice, now, children! 

Cheers,

Gary


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

The first two markers of a sociopath are: 

1. Callous unconcern for the feelings of others.
2. Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, and obligations.

What chrisngate appears to be supporting is the right to be a sociopath. Either this puts him in that category, or he's simply trolling. Either way, it's best to ignore him. 

However, I do believe we are seeing a rise in sociopathic behaviour throughout US and Canadian society. Imposing your personal noise on others is a prime example of this. I'd speculate this extends to other western countries, but that is outside my experience. 

As I mentioned earlier, there are multiple reasons for this, but the bottom line is that we are loosing the ability to live in a community. We are increasingly becoming societies of one; of ME. 


Why go fast, when you can go slow


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Mike in the past I was worried you had a bent toward class warfare. But as I gotten to know you better from your posts I like you more and more. Our world view seems quite congruent. I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment. I think this is in part due to the increasing isolation of individuals as a consequence of increasing social interaction via screens of several types. Texting instead of talking or even blogs and forums such as this. The cockpit social hour of cruisers and sense of community is so important to me. I only hope C gets to experience that and through that becomes less egocentric in his thinking.
Now to mess with sail maintenance issues.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

On the fortunately few occasions where someone's halyard slap was annoying while cruising (and the offender was on board) I'm amazed that they could sleep at all.. after all if it's loud enough to disturb me several boat lengths distant, what was it like aboard that vessel? Yet I've seen that scenario numerous times - though not regularly.

If I'm in a marina with a slappy neighbour I have donated a bungee cord to quiet things down. Often I leave it behind.

Problem with earplugs is that it would prevent me from hearing things I want to hear.. bumps in the night, a new breeze, bilge pump coming on etc etc.

Waves slapping under the counter are a big issue for us - we have that sort of hull form. I have turned the boat around, if possible, or tied a dinghy across the stern to try to mitigate that.

Another possible marina annoyance is constantly running bait tanks....

Anyhow, are we outright entitled to 'quiet'.. perhaps not - but simple courtesy should be part of the equation. Arrogant refusals to shut down/quiet things soon puts them into the 'Ahole' category....


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chrisncate said:


> Not sure where you picked up the idea that I lumped all things noise related as being equal? As for pretty obvious, I address that in my next paragraph.


Nowhere in this thread have I seen you allow for the possibility that the noise the OP was referring to might have been truly exceptional... All noise from wind generators appears to be lumped together as being equivalent, though perhaps I've missed where you made some distinction...



chrisncate said:


> I have to point out that both examples you note aren't very odd or unusual at all, and neither highlight an example of years of experience bringing these types of examples to light. You're pointing out two examples of rude boat behavior, and neither example isn't anything that makes me go "wow".


That's why I specifically cited the example of that evening in Maine... If you've ever sailed in Maine, you might appreciate such an occurrence IS highly unusual... Maine has always been _DIFFERENT_, in that regard... Sadly, things are changing up there as well, and is becoming increasingly infected with with behavior less appreciative of the surroundings and the style of cruising which has long typified that region...



chrisncate said:


> I too have witnessed boats running a generator (gas in both cases) right off the dock (two examples that I remember clearly - one on the Magothy where I once had a slip, and once in Annapolis down on Spa Creek where I also once had a slip). Both examples were boats anchored pretty close to the marina, and both examples were when we were on the boat for the evening in the slip.


At 10 PM, on a perfectly still night, on the Saturday of a boat show weekend when Back Creek was crowded with other yachts? Damn, if that's become commonplace, I suppose things are even worse than I thought... ;-)



chrisncate said:


> The other example you noted is probably the most common of the rude generator set. Pulling into the anchorage and firing it up. Just not seeing where either of your examples require thousands and thousands of night at anchor to eventually run across. Maybe you could clarify that?


As I've already said, it took a couple of decades of sailing to Maine, before I ever witnessed it _THERE_, and in such a spectacularly serene setting... Other places, it would not surprise me at all...



chrisncate said:


> Regarding the pee pee measuring contest often engaged in on Sailnet regarding who's done what and gone farther, I will simply note my experience for those who might read this and not know. I have about 13 years of Chesapeake Bay sailing experience, so all in all my nights at anchor might range in the hundreds. Certainly not the thousands. Lots of anchorages from the lower bay to the upper bay, but nothing abroad or even out of the bay. I do believe I have experienced enough of the variety of a-holes an anchorage may bring, and I do feel qualified enough to be able to comment on the differences between being a whiny sailor who is overly noise sensitive, and being someone who can roll with noises that are reasonable (and not all are of course).


Good for you, but I was only taking issue with your comment that one might only require a single night at anchor to be able to comment on the broad range of scenarios that one can experience at anchor...



chrisncate said:


> Nice picture. Is it color enhanced?


If it is, not very much... Lightened the shadows a bit, most likely...

Originally shot on film, with a polarizing filter, so that's why it might appear to be "enhanced"...

Plus, it's _MAINE_, on a late summer evening... As I said, things are _different_ up there, there's a special quality to the light - among other things...

;-)


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Oy vey...

Look guys and gals, I'm a patient person. I will repeat what I have already posted as often as needed until it gets read, which is that of course there are rude noises and lines that can be crossed. I am of course not arguing against that fact, nor am I saying "anything goes". 

My point of contention isn't so much the noisy wind gen (although that can be discussed), it's the entire concept of what's appropriate noise in the anchorage as defined solely by sailors. Forgetting for a moment the obvious egregious noises, and drilling down into more questionable things like line noises and bed times/wake times, it is certainly debatable in light of the fact that other types of boaters do indeed have the same right to be there as sailors do. 

The lifestyle and nautical philosophy of the power boater for example, is no less valid than the sailors. The noise defaults between the two different groups can be substantial however. I know this is a sailing forum, and in that, sailors assume they have the right of way and "set" the noise defaults, but.. they don't. This is where a discussion about many sailors default setting regarding noises (aka SDTSS; sensory depravation tank sailor syndrome) is worthy of having imo.

Also worth mentioning, is the need to make snarky personal insults and amateur psychological diagnosis some sort of deep seated need among some of you when confronted with an argument you don't like? What's that all about exactly? You don't see me doing that to you, so how about extending to me some of that famous laid back cruising vibe, and keep it focused and on topic. Thanks in advance for that.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Squareknot said:


> In 1988 a large power boat arrived in our quite anchorage with a large generator strapped to his swim platform. Whenever the AC or coffee pot cycled on , the generator would cycle up to handle the load. At 1:30 AM we had had enough and advised him to either turn it off or we ( 5 family's of sailboats) were going to join him for the rest of the night. He advised us he was big shot prosecutor from the Western Shore of Maryland and had every right to run his generator as he pleased, and we were not invited aboard his vessel. At 3:30 am ,a former Navy Seal ( Vietnam Veteran) approached the swim platform
> with a large tube of toothpaste and deposited it into the oil fill port of his generator. The next time it cycled on the toothpaste proceeded to devour the rings, valve guides, oil pump, and main journal bearings of the generator. Needless to say the said vessel never returned to Tim's Creek and the quite and tranquility returned to this favorite upper shore anchorage!





chrisncate said:


> Awesome! Destruction of private property because you don't like the noise being made in a public place. Woo hoo!
> 
> The very definition of hero, and definitely worthy of BFS. Everyone agree?
> 
> Also, Thanks for registering just to post this great story of heroism. Great first post!


Wow ... one post, one cast and he lands a biggun. :laugh


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

chrisncate said:


> Also worth mentioning, is the need to make snarky personal insults and amateur psychological diagnosis some sort of deep seated need among some of you when confronted with an argument you don't like? What's that all about exactly? You don't see me doing that to you, so how about extending to me some of that famous laid back cruising vibe, and keep it focused and on topic. Thanks in advance for that.


Are you looking to be the pot or the kettle?

You are the one pretty much keeping the troll path open, IMO


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

Don0190 said:


> Are you looking to be the pot or the kettle?
> 
> You are the one pretty much keeping the troll path open, IMO


Bah, trolling is calling people names, unsolicited clinical diagnoses of people, ignoring the topic and instead questioning the others motives etc.

Some here want to besmirch the messenger because they don't like and won't speak to valid points they happen to disagree with.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

pot it is then


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

Posted by CC
"I have about 13 years of Chesapeake Bay sailing experience, so all in all my nights at anchor might range in the hundreds." 
I might be impressed if I hadn't had that much experience way before I went to college. That was over 40 years ago. 
Come back when your potty trained. Smells like you need a changing.
Jim


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

How can a halyard bang overnight on the Chessy, when there's no wind?


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## XSrcing (Aug 22, 2015)

jimrafford said:


> Posted by CC
> "I have about 13 years of Chesapeake Bay sailing experience, so all in all my nights at anchor might range in the hundreds."
> I might be impressed if I hadn't had that much experience way before I went to college. That was over 40 years ago.
> Come back when your potty trained. Smells like you need a changing.
> Jim


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_burn_centers_in_the_United_States


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

jimrafford said:


> Posted by CC
> "I have about 13 years of Chesapeake Bay sailing experience, so all in all my nights at anchor might range in the hundreds."
> I might be impressed if I hadn't had that much experience way before I went to college. That was over 40 years ago.
> Come back when your potty trained. Smells like you need a changing.
> Jim


You really missed the point of that post. I was referencing the fact that I _don't_ have thousands of nights at anchor, and while I do have a decent amount of anchoring out experience, it certainly doesn't compare to many of you fine folks. Sailed right over your head, Captain Expert.

Your post should be a lesson to all here on Sailnet. 13 years sailing experience is not even worthy of being considered potty trained by the amazing sailors and cruiser experts that inhabit this place. Until you are a senior citizen with one foot already in the grave, you are completely worthless on the water and clearly know nothing.

Also worth noting is that one should not take the general nastiness and down talking by many here as being an shining example of what you actually find from the phony's that are the cruising set. Ho ho, not at all... Do keep on believing that cruisers are somehow different and better than the rest of the general population. Reach for the stars new folks, fair winds and following seas!


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## VallelyJ (Nov 21, 2008)

> ...amateur psychological diagnosis some sort of deep seated need among some of you when confronted with an argument you don't like?


To put this as gently as possible, perhaps give some thought to how you might have triggered that need among some of us.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

VallelyJ said:


> To put this as gently as possible, perhaps give some thought to how you might have triggered that need among some of us.


Because having an opinion that maybe not every single cruiser gripe about noise is necessarily the gospel? For this it's _my_ fault that that poster called me a sociopath? Hardly.

Frankly, the fact that so many sailboaters can't have any sort of honest discussion about themselves is worthy of a professional clinical work up and diagnosis in and of itself. This narrative many of you folks have built up about yourselves (you know, the cruiser myth about how cruisers are such enlightened and friendly people) is pure fantasy.

What you see here is what you actually get. D*cks here are d*cks out there, and this is patently obvious to anyone with any sort of observational skills. Not just this thread of course, the general tone of all the threads where any sort of conflict takes place. It's all right here. Maybe someone should do a "greatest hits" thread of lousy treatment of each other.


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