# euro boat interiors, YUCK...



## john232 (Aug 18, 2003)

I was at the boat show a few weeks ago and I looked at alot of the new sailboat interiors. I have come to the conclusion that most new yachts look like the interiors of high dollar RVs and condos, they do not look very nautical any more, infact alot of tables were square shaped and the settees looked like couches. most of the galleys have square doors for storage with no ventilation of louvered or raised pannel doors. also fiddles were minimal as were hand holds. I guess the euros think this look is "refined" or "progressive" But I think it looks boring and vanilla bland. I get on my yacht to get away from the condo, progressive, land lubber look. WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO TRADITIONAL NAUTICAL INTERIORS?. And why does Yachting magazines from euro always cut our boats down as being inferiour to there designs? Sorry for the rant, but I had to get this off my chest.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Please, stop calling them Euro this Euro that...what the hell are you talking about.

For the record, we call that the *American interior*. Why?? Simple, more European boats are sold in the US than in any other Continent.

The demand justifies the offer...you guys in the US are the ones "demanding" these interiors...the European boat builders just want to make their biggest customers happy....off course...you're the ones with "no taste", thus the idiotic boat builders following the source of the money..

Want another example?? The stupid looking SUV from Porsche, the "poor man" boxter Porsche, the X3 and X5 BMW, the ML Mercedes Benz, the Oceanis Beneteau, the DS styile boats with horrendous Pilot houses...the pilot house boats them selves, so the "have it my way, low effort American sailor can sail without getting his underware wet......that dear Sir, are all "Americanisms"..

what pisses me off is that beacuse you guys have no taste, (but money), we have to have those interiors, those cars, the pilot hous boats and the DS deckss.....and I be soon we'll start drinking Californina wine too:::Yukkkkk

Ahhh want more??? what about the BUT UGLY Alerion, the sailing misfit, designed to look retro with modern spars...what the hell is wrong with you guys???

I tell you what is wrong...you guys buy more boats than we do, the "Euro" as you call them just satisfy you guys...

So, since the problem started on YOUR side because of YOU GUYS and your lack of taste...suck it up....


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Touche' Giu.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

RickBowman said:


> Geeze, I sort of appreciate dry underware.


   in your case...dry shoes then.....


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## john232 (Aug 18, 2003)

I hate those ugly DS boats. I like the older Wauquiez centurions and Swans just to mention a couple.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

John, what I meant in my post was not an attack agains you, rather against the preconcieved idea you tryied to transmit, that we, Europeans were to blame for that, where we're not. We're pretty pissed off with that too, but that trend arrives because of you guys. You guys buy more, so you dictated the trend.

Anyway, look at a nice HR, or a Najad, or even a X Yachts, they're still built the "old" way...they allure to a different clientelle. 

The boats you don't like are more like introductory boats, aimed at people with less sailing skills, to whom is more important a large sallon with empty spaces and a place to entertain and visit whilst maintaining a modern "home" look like environment.

They are not concieved for the sailor that knows what he wants, or needs a boat with a purpose driven inside, rather than a good looking modern one.

I forsee that (and I have seen this happen before in the early 90's when traditional designs were abandoned for high freebords and high cabins), that soon we'll be faced with a complete refusal from people on such boats and the market will be flooded with what will soon be considered an ugly boat.

I am almost sure, that in 6 years people will close their eyes at the new Wauquiez, or even the new Oceanis or the Sun Odysey.

Alex


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## john232 (Aug 18, 2003)

GUI: We can't make Beneteau, and Waquiez, and jeanneua, and Nautor Swan and all the rest of the Boat Companies design there boats the way they do, Its a Euro designer and A Euro trend thats happening because you don't see American Companies building the Akea furniture look into there yachts.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

He's found the editing button . . . 



> Ahhh want more??? what about the BUT UGLY Alerion, the sailing misfit, designed to look retro with modern spars...what the hell is wrong with you guys???


I happen to like Alerion's and don't consider them as butt-ugly.

OTOH, The OP's comments comparing the current trend in boat interiors with "square cabinet doors" and "square tables" as "Euro" has me a bit confused. My interpretation of the so-called "Euro look" combined very curvilinear and free-form shapes to hulls, ports/windows and interiors - some resulting in some very "wtf"-looking designs.

Traditional designs typically incorporated round and oval ports, with interiors focusing upon rectangular cabinetry, table and door shapes, with corners usually eased for safety. Those amoeba and kidney shaped hulls and interior componets were origninally invented by European expressionists many years ago to emulate biologically organic forms. I believe that's what coined the so-called "Euro" movement.


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## ehmanta (Sep 12, 2006)

Gui, 
While I whole heartily agree that American consumerism is the bain of our existance, I must disagree that we all have poor taste. They're plenty of us romantics who love the lines of an old Hinckley or Herreshoff and get nauseous when we see the new style of boat that has been described above as "Euro." 
I'll take a thirty year old boat over most new boats anyday of the week as long as its of good genes......


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

john232 said:


> American Companies building the Akea furniture look into there yachts.


Appart from catalina, and HP...what boats are you guys making?? The yacht industry in the US died...

Its all made in China or Taiwan...the designers went all to the same school, where instead of learning how to design a boat, they learnt how to sell them....


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> I happen to like Alerion's and don't consider them as butt-ugly.


Rest my case, my American friend....     Its not your fault....

You're the one from the land of Crock shoes, tank top shirts, Mullets and Camaro's on stands....

I don't hold that against you...


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Never owned a Croc, have never worn tank tops or fashioned my hair in a mullet and don't have a Camaro on stands in my front yard.

It's unfortunate what Hollywood has done to taint our image with Europeans. Now if it's a culture war you want Giu, don't get me started on my interpretation of Portuguese tastes, as we American's know it. 

Remember, Fall River and New Bedford are very close to Newport, RI.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

I'll settle for my Union 36 any day.
That modernism is fine for those that like it.
To each their own.

Americans, take no lectures from Europeans about taste. 

Eurpoean taste is so refined, so superior, so heavily taxed, and so expensive, very few can ever afford it. Europeans are very loud about it when they can.

I speak as a European, but man I wish I had American choice and prices.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> Never owned a Croc, have never worn tank tops or fashioned my hair in a mullet and don't have a Camaro on stands in my front yard.
> 
> It's unfortunate what Hollywood has done to taint our image with Europeans. Now if it's a culture war you want Giu, don't get me started on my interpretation of Portuguese tastes, as we American's know it.
> 
> Remember, Fall River and New Bedford are very close to Newport, RI.


Hey...good thing those guys from Fall river etc. don't build boats huh???   

I've met a few....   

By the way..i have a photo of you with a mullet...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Hey TB....the US is not just the East coast....go to Wyoming, Montana Omaha....


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Giulietta said:


> Hey...good thing those guys from Fall river etc. don't build boats huh???
> 
> I've met a few....
> 
> By the way..i have a photo of you with a mullet...


Damn right about that . . .     . They'd probably look like gaff-rigged quahog boats decorated with garrish colors and empty Mateus bottles.

That pic has been doctored by a certain Portagee.


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## john232 (Aug 18, 2003)

American boats are: Morris which is an impecable boat. Than you have Shannon which is out standing in quality and innovation, then you have Santa cruz, and Pacific seacraft which has won Alot of quality awards. than you have Bruckman and don't for get SABRE becausethey are fine cruiser/racers, then you have Caliber which are good boats Then you have thr AWSOME PERFORMING J Boats and I could go on and on but I have to get to bed.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Giu,
I would love to continue this dicussion, but I've gotta go, have two design client presentations today. Someone has to educate these people on what good taste is.


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> Never owned a Croc, have never worn tank tops or fashioned my hair in a mullet and don't have a Camaro on stands in my front yard.
> 
> It's unfortunate what Hollywood has done to taint our image with Europeans. Now if it's a culture war you want Giu, don't get me started on my interpretation of Portuguese tastes, as we American's know it.
> 
> Remember, Fall River and New Bedford are very close to Newport, RI.


Hey, I'm from New Bedford, what's wrong with Portuguese tastes?

Dennis


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

One thing I've noticed on new boats from both sides of the ocean is lack of proper ventilation. Where are all the cowl vents?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

denby said:


> Hey, I'm from New Bedford, what's wrong with Portuguese tastes?
> 
> Dennis


Portugal is not Europe    Its beyond that... 

You're good..don't worry....

Hey they need people to buy those Alerions don't they???


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

teshannon said:


> One thing I've noticed on new boats from both sides of the ocean is lack of proper ventilation. Where are all the cowl vents?


At the Westmarine and boat hardware stores....where else???

Today its more important to glue a VW bettle on the deck than a proper designed deck....


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I use to own a Jaguar XKE V12 ( shows I have/had good taste, lol ) and I like the Porsche Boxer.

I also like arched doors.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Wherever it started or comes from, I agree with the original poster.
We can't stand the current trend. My wife and I have been aboard a couple of these boats a couple of different times. (Specifically the Bendies)
We first went on board at the Strictly Sail Show back in January, than we thought we would try again at an in water show in August. We just can't get past the cold feeling you get when you are down below.

Than throw in the "Cat's Eyes" in the rounded cabin top and for me, you have a complete "Waste of your dollar boat."

Talk about Butt Ugly. 
But there must be a market for them, I'm sure there are people who don't know any different who are willing to fork out a few hundred thousand for one.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Hey Giu...I think you are wrong about Euro design in boats being responsive to American tastes. I remember when the first Bavarias came across with those bizarre interiors and wondering what the hell were they thinking?? 
Now I just have to look at the interiors of some American production boats too to understand that WE have no taste either...So my conclusion is that worldwide popular taste dictates that boat interiors should look like the inside of a brothel and bear no relationship to any purpose at sea. Rather than provide proper handholds and rounded corners, the general public wants the ability to watch themselves fornicating on board in 27 strategically placed mirrors! 
When one comes across a Shannon, Morris, Njaad, Contest or other boat clearly designed to be at sea, one can be sure that the price tag has insulated the designer from catering to popular taste.


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

I have a different opinion than Giu on this topic (hope to survive anyway):
I think the "modern" design comes under strong influence of Italian designers. I happen to live 2 hours driving from Venice, and Slovenia share the same Adriatic sea with Italy, so there are lots and lots of Italians here.
Every modern clean line design I saw on the last boat show had an Italian design studio signature (Even the French and the Germans are using Italian designers). The open clean lines are popular in power boats for some years here and they started to migrate to sailboats.
Now it all looks the same - Italian designed home furniture, the power boat, the sailboat, ...
I do not like this at all, just to avoid misunderstanding.
But I sail a lot in Adriatic Sea and here the waves are usually well below 1 feet high. There are no long swells - no place for that among thousand Islands in a closed sea. So, clean design may work well for summer vacation captains. Most are in the marina every evening, they make short day sails and they do not go down at all while under way. 
For those people clean lines my be OK. And if a famous Italian design studio says it is also beautiful - well some people are just accepting the fact that they need to "learn to appreciate the real beauty" and buy it.
And the builders: clean lines = simple mass production = more profit.
The rest is marketing.


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## TSteele65 (Oct 19, 2006)

Having looked at the Bavaria and Hanse boats at the Annapolis show, I have a new-found appreciation for boats with a LOT of wood below. The sterile look of the interiors on those boats was just a turnoff (helped in no small part by the obvious cheapness of what little "wood" there was).


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I go with Tomaz, but think marketing is more than 'the rest'. The term 'euro' styling is itself marketing crap. The trend for big clean interiors with ash blond wood is crap I remember distinctly from the 'progressive' italian condo's I rented while living in Sicily. Compare interior designs of the 'euro' boats to homes pictured in 'good housekeeping' mag's - nope, not american style at all; now look at Paris Match or Italian mag's, yep - we have a winner. That's where it comes from.
American boats, even relatively cheap ones like Catalina's and Hunter are not following the 'swoosh' foredeck trend for a good reason: they cater to sailors who actually walk on the deck to get forward and don't want and will not accept a slooped, wet, pitching fore deck 13 feet between hand holds. Decks belong flat, with just enough sloop/curl to toss of sea water. 
These boats are built for charterboaters who don't have to put up with them for long but want a place that looks and feels exotic and different from home.

Say all you want about american style, I'm tying my mullet back as I hose off the camaro sitting on stands in front of my doublewide house trailer with the shed tacked onto the back.


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## NCountry (May 25, 2006)

First, you forgot to mention Valiant Yachts. One of the best from right here in the heartland of America.

Two, That "your american taste sucks" rant really irritates me. Not all americans run out and buy a new boat every year. IN FACT this american along with a lot of others works his rear end off to support 4 kids. Two of which aren't even genetically related to my wife or I. When these two young men needed a GOOD home and it became time to "put up or shut up" I put up and did the right thing. The expense of it means that I may NEVER get to live my dream and sail the world but it is a sacrifice I made to help someone in need. THEN at 48 when my wife became pregnant we DID NOT take the easy way out and terminate the pregnancy. Once again it was put up or shut up time and we PUT UP. I can give you an incredibly long list of times this american just like a lot of others has "PUT UP" when it was time.
As americans there are example after example of PUT UP. How about WW 2. If america hadn't "put up" then where would all of europe be today? How do the european countries treat us for bailing their rear ends out of the deep blue? Well, they default on the loans we gave them to help rebuild. They blame us for the problems they helped create and now I have to listen to a sadly misguided and misinformed self proclaimed expert tell me it's america's fault that boat interiors don't suit his taste! 
How many examples of "PUT UP" can you give me from Europe? This financially distressed, hard working, about to lose my dream because I did the right thing american isn't aware of very many but I can sure make an incredible list of the things my neighbors and I have done.
NOW, SHUT UP! GRAB A GLASS OF FRENCH OR CALIFORNIA WINE, AND HIT THE WATER! WE'RE ALL SAILORS HERE AND HAVE TO INHABIT THE SAME OCEANS.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

NCountry said:


> First, you forgot to mention Valiant Yachts. One of the best from right here in the heartland of America.
> 
> Two, That "your american taste sucks" rant really irritates me. Not all americans run out and buy a new boat every year. IN FACT this american along with a lot of others works his rear end off to support 4 kids. Two of which aren't even genetically related to my wife or I. When these two young men needed a GOOD home and it became time to "put up or shut up" I put up and did the right thing. The expense of it means that I may NEVER get to live my dream and sail the world but it is a sacrifice I made to help someone in need. THEN at 48 when my wife became pregnant we DID NOT take the easy way out and terminate the pregnancy. Once again it was put up or shut up time and we PUT UP. I can give you an incredibly long list of times this american just like a lot of others has "PUT UP" when it was time.
> As americans there are example after example of PUT UP. How about WW 2. If america hadn't "put up" then where would all of europe be today? How do the european countries treat us for bailing their rear ends out of the deep blue? Well, they default on the loans we gave them to help rebuild. They blame us for the problems they helped create and now I have to listen to a sadly misguided and misinformed self proclaimed expert tell me it's america's fault that boat interiors don't suit his taste!
> ...


I think you might have a problem elswhere and not with me.

First of all Portugal is in Iraq with the US so don't give me that crap, second if you're frustrated with your life, go take it on someone else, and if you can't hold an opinion, go watch TV or something else, BUT DON't BIG LETTER ME. OK?

Now, you may probably have a problem reading me or understanding me, maybe beacuse of your head is spinning in your own arguments, which I understand....

Anyway, if you can't get what was written and how it was written its not my fault.

I was explaining that on this side we blame you guys , on that side you blame us...opinions.

Now, calling me a self proclaimed expert, that was trully uncalled for....I am an expert, what are you??? A guy with a bad attitude...   

Don't bother......you're right...bad Europeans....

One question, many Years ago, when Portugal helped Mexico get independence, we never came back 100 times a day throwing that in your face, did we???

So the same way you call me "Europe helped by America " (by the way check allied traties between the US and Portugal), I can call Mexicans America, can't I??

For the record...I never saw an American soldier here, unless he was in a bar on having fun...

I'm from Portugal, its in Europe, but not in the war....go preach to the French with the broken record stuff.

edited:

I have deicided to pay you for your helping free Portugal form who I don't know, but come on over, between 8 and 9 pm...I'll pay you for your help...OK? Please bring your proof of being here during War time so we can validate and process your payment. Thanks you


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

It certainly is kind of you Europeans to sink to our level. Yo could never be accused of lacking taste! Thats why all of the American consumer companies are getting their growth from you now. We have run out of room to wallow in our own rank consumerism, so we have come to you. And low and behold you are buying it! Keep the euros coming, baby!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

NCountry,
Man you are grumpy! Lighten up!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Back onto the topic of the OP, I actually like the interior design on the Freedom 32. It has the semi-circular setee and arched cabin doors, and light wood (ash?). Really pretty nice without being too "Euro" (oops I said the E word).


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Bardo, you are right.

Hey do happen to have a photo of yourself around there?? My sailnet memeber book is almost finished....you're missing.

Please post asap, ok?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Suuurrrre I will. Its in the mail Gui!! I'm ugly enough as it is without your help, mate!


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## Johnrb (Sep 21, 2002)

_"the "poor man" boxter Porsche"_

Easy on the Boxster Giu - that's one of the best sports cars made.

_" You're the one from the land of Crock shoes, tank top shirts, Mullets and Camaro's on stands"_

I can't comment on Crocks, tank tops or Camaros on stands, but I do know ice hockey and hockey is the home of the mullet. I believe it has something to do with being hit on the head by too many pucks. 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/playoffs2006/news/story?id=2416132


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

john232 said:


> American boats are: Morris which is an impecable boat. Than you have Shannon which is out standing in quality and innovation, then you have Santa cruz, and Pacific seacraft which has won Alot of quality awards. than you have Bruckman and don't for get SABRE becausethey are fine cruiser/racers, then you have Caliber which are good boats Then you have thr AWSOME PERFORMING J Boats and I could go on and on but I have to get to bed.


You left out the most popular US sailboat of all, MacGregor.


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## TSteele65 (Oct 19, 2006)

CapnHand said:


> You left out the most popular US sailboat of all, MacGregor.


Every boat is a compromise, but those things are cheese-eating surrender monkeys.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I was sitting at breakfast last June next to a high ranking Jeanneau US employee while at the local roundevous. He mentioned that the designs were what clients wanted, ie more room, cabin top mounted travelers etc..........the new SO's look like the bayliner buccaneers of the 70's from here in the NW US! UUUUGGGGGGGLLLLLLLLYYYYYYY and slow! 

Well, looking at the most recent Cruising World boat of the yr, I see a jeanneau SO36i/sunsail 362...........hmmmmmmmm........wonder whom that client(s) that want an ugly roomy whale of an interior slow boat is? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Kinda like the Benateau oceanus/moorrings boat line? Whom are all these customer(s) demanding this style of boat? hmmmmmmmmmm....Me thinks it is ONE customer per say with ea company! Ie the charter fleet company's!

My take on euro design, is..... sorry Alex......."Giulietta", a J109/122, X34/35, the new Dehler 34/40 etal, fast boats that race well, still have a comfy interior so when you get to the dock, you can entertain etc. 
Well laid out cockpits so you can tend the sheets etc easily etc. It is also possible, one will see more two line setups from boat builders, ala the Oceanus/First line from Benateau. A cruiser/charter fleet of boat designs, and a more racer/cruiser line, with some like tarten etc that will be more fast cruising. 

I go into a few arguments recently with some folks on the Jeanneau owners site, when I said the SO36iperformance would probably be a slug compared to the boats it is replacing, ie the sunfast 35..........oh boy, what a time! Then along came a person with an SF35, whom quotes local dealer as saying they do NOT like the new "i" series boats personally. any way.

Boats are like women, all are lovely, some just have the wrong lines for ones tastes, while others have the opposite opinion. just as i think Ailerons are ugly, but some of the other brands like Morris, with equal design fancy daysailers if you will, are better looking appointed boats. 

Marty


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Here is the F32 interior 1984 vintage:



























This one is a bit dark, but I think its nice in a Euro-American sort of way.....


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

blt2ski said:


> Boats are like women, all are lovely, some just have the wrong lines for ones tastes, while others have the opposite opinion. just as i think Ailerons are ugly, but some of the other brands like Morris, with equal design fancy daysailers if you will, are better looking appointed boats.
> 
> Marty


Marty,

You are quite right. Boats are just like women:

For example:

Here is woman # 1: (PS - F stands for French)










Here is woman #2. Let's call her the All AMERICAN CATALINA!!!!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I'm obviously sailing the wrong boat.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Sorry CD,

The 2nd photo is my lovely greek wife, the first is the abusive ex wife!!!!

You got those pics backwards!

marty


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Well, I will tell you that although I like the older Catalina interiors better than the new ones (had more cabinetry), I cannot see ANYTHING similair between it and a bene/jeauneau or other European (primarily French) designs. I think those designs appeal to many Americans... but not me, at all.

Is Giu right?? Did America influence the design change??? I have no idea. I can tell you it does not fly for this American and Catalina sure has not changed into that mold. If it was a universal American thing, you would think Hunter and Catalina and Valiant and Morris (etc) would have moved into more of that flair... but they have not. Still, if Americans did not buy any of their boats, I do not doubt they would change what they are doing. Then again, I have never known the French to change what they are doing to meet world opinions!!! HAHA!

Remember a while back about me complaining about the new Jeauneaus and Benes... this is one of thie things I was talking about. *However, there is a positive side. You do get more with the new Jeauneaus and Bene's than you get with ANY Catalina. Don't know what that is? It is a specialized burgee which can be flown night and day. Show it off proudly, I say, you deserve it:*


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

OK, I'm in between meetings and thought I'd see how the Euro-trash thread is going, and as I suspected, on a downhill spiral to the bilge. I'm not complaining, but anyone ever notice how these types of threads always digress to sexual inuendos?

So far, there have been a couple votes against the American designed Alerion Express. Sure the 28, 33 and 38 are retro and inspired by Herreshoff classics, but I don't consider them to be "butt-ugly".

Sure as hell are better looking then what the French are knocking off. Here are some images of the AE33 . . . no backstay for increased mainsail area and a self tending jib:


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Gozzard 44, prettiest girl at the dance by far. Sure it's Canadian, but heck Canada is part of North America (when they do something right, I'll own up to that).
Not a 'euro' look to it, it's just boat the way they should be.

(and for once, I'm talking mono, not catamaran, so you know I'm serious).

Chuckles


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Hey! Is it too late to get in on this food fight?

<OSome random ramblings and rants&#8230;<O
<O
Mourning the loss of teak and mahogany from boat interiors? Blame the tree huggers and rainforest deforestation! Tropical hardwoods are getting near impossible to import into this country and are becoming very, very expensive. That's why holly soles are veneer or plastic these days. Blame the orangutan, not Frank Butler! <O

I recall seeing the "Euro" look first showing up in European boats so don't blame us for your lack of taste over there. The Bendytoy company is the largest builder in the world because they equip the Caribbean charter fleets. So if you want to blame the bad taste on somebody, blame the charter'ers, not us. Boat building is alive and well in <ST1North America</ST1. You Europeans might not recognize this fact because you are all attracted to the "Euro" design and don't recognize a real boat when you see one.<O
<O
If the "Euro" design was some sort of Yankee plot foisted on unsuspecting Europeans, why does Giulietta have a decided "Euro" look about her? I mean, as a custom boat, you had an infinite number of design possibilities. On a more serious note (I'll get back to bashing shortly), why didn't you install a toe rail on Giulietta? Aren't you afraid of slipping out under the lifelines (a toe rail has kept me on the boat on more than one occasion). Don't get me wrong, I like the flush deck look, just curious.<O
<O
O.K., back to the bashing&#8230; Taste? And you prefer local swill to a Napa Valley Cabernet? Next, are you going to tell us you actually like French wine?<O
<O
What the hell is a Croc and a Mullet? I know what a crock and mutton is but this other stuff&#8230; is it European? Is it found on a French boat?<O
<O
O.K., sign me up for the defense of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com







<ST1Portugal</ST1</st1:country-region>. I'll even do it for half price. Now all we have to do is find someone who would actually want to invade that country. 
<O<O
Hey, that was fun! <O


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## RealityCheck (Jun 2, 2007)

A boat is like.... a boat...

Most people have different likes and dislikes... I have no problem with some of the easier to clean, easier to use functions of many of the newer boats... While I still like to look at older boat types.

I sometime enjoy going to an antique store... but I would not want to live there...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

TB,
How can anyone, even a Portagee, call that AE ugly? My god, how lovely. i get to ferry that AE28 back across the ChesBay next week. I'm waiting for a blustery day.....


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Lucky sailor Bardo - Since the boats are commissioned on my dock, I see the designer, Garry Hoyt often and had a chance to talk with him and inspect his newest creation recently. Never had the chance to sail on an Alerion though. . . . yet.

Perhaps I'm beginning to show my age or simply have a preference to traditional boat design. But, I cannot relate to this repulsion some sailors have of anything related to classically inspired yacht design.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Welcome to that Great European recreation... parking buckets of excreta on Americans.
This place called Europe abounds with it.
Europeans did not say it in 1940-45, but the French wasted no time thereafter.
A whole choir has sprung up around it, with the same song.
It's endless, out of tune, and crushingly boring.


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## jimmalkin (Jun 1, 2004)

This thread started about boat design. Valients (American?) designed by Bob Perry (Aussie transplanted to the US) - etc and etc. I'm for functional, for fids, for performance/cruisers, for gimbals, for ventilation, for KISS, etc. I live in the US and have lived in Australia for 12 and England for 4. Why do these things always turn into a s***-slinging match? There's good and bad about everyone and every country. A guy who works with me has a saying "just because your're paranoid doesn't mean that they're not after you." Take a chill pill - there are jerks and heros everywhere.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

OK I don't really want to go on with this, because for obvious reasons my points were taken to the wrong side. I don't really care anymore.

(By the way, this is for the person that gave me a bad rep on this thread...at least have the decency to leave you name, like I do. L)

I am not having a rant here, I am responding to a intial poster whom HAD a rant and called them Euro boats, they are not "Euro" boats because we call them here "American" boats, we don't want them more than you do.

My point was that they are as much Euro boats as they are American boats. Also since I AM ACTUALLY around boats pretty much all day, and know the American market and people, perhaps more than you know European market, in my opinion the "trend" I see is towrds satisfying the American market.

If you don't agree, or don't like it, tough luck I will not sail less or think of you less. Opinions are like A** Holes, we all have one. 
However some people here seem to be lacking a joy of life or the spirit of open mind, I don't care either. Tomorrow when I sail, I will not think about that either....and now I went from being happy and willing to being pissed of, by the people with bottle bottom glasses, that should look around and leave their little existences and see the World....

And also, I'm tired of hearing "well we saved Europe in WWII", and Europe this and Europe that....you guys saved France AND England and screwed the Germans (cool), many Countries were not envolved in WWII here, so don't generalize Europe as one, its many countries just like America are many countries.

So many times I mention I am European and get the ohohoh we saved your ass...NO YOU DIDN'T...you saved them Northern Europeans...got it??? read the History books, or google WWII participants....

And if you want to call my boat Euro, please go ahead...its Euro because it was made in Europe....but the gear came from the US....so its American...

NO...its MINE!!!

Now....

TB and Bardo,

the Alerion...

I think we are looking at different things....and we are seeing different things...its in the eye.

We all have different tastes. To me the Alerion is ugly, its terribly badly proprtioned, has an ugly rig, and from some angles looks like a Dutch Wooden shoe.

The mast is too far forward for the boat to look balancedofinou and the stern seems too high in relation to the bow. It has a gigantic out of proportion cockpit with a big ass wheel. To me (and this is just my opinion), it looks like that car you guys have that is designed like a 1930's car (I can't remember the name) Its neither fish or meat.

I look at the boat and donn't see proportions, the Hoyt, the backstay less main, that looks like it came out of a Volvo racer...

I mean no disrespect to TB or you that love the boat. Its my opinion.

And I see you guys have different likes on the boats.

Now....want boats like that that really look good...Morris, Tofinot, Dragon etc...

A classic is a classic. To me the Alerion looks like a 1950's Caddilac with BLING BLING Wheels...sorry....

I am leaving this here....

Look here boats that bring the classic look with dignity, respect and proportion....

Morris M series

Tofinou if you really want to use hi thech masts and sails, at least make sure it balances with the hull.

I have more examples of boats that are set to do the same objective Alerion is proposing, but with garce, balance and proper balance. Not blue hulls and overhangs.

Again, my opinion, but who am I??? just another european...ignore me.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> Perhaps I'm beginning to show my age or simply have a preference to traditional boat design. But, I cannot relate to this repulsion some sailors have of anything related to classically inspired yacht design.


Steve, I think you know me by now, I say what I mean no BS.

I trully like classical looks and classical boats, I am great fan of the earlier Tartan 34's like T34C the dragon, etc.

I don't like the Alerion not because its trying to look classic, but because its a boat that I thing its out of proportion....the mast and sail plan does not fit the hull, and as a consequence the boat seem off balance...that is all

I have a modern straight line boat because that is what I want and like, but it does not mean I am against classics...I am against classis that are ugly and defeat the purpose with gimmicks like the sail plan and dark blue hulls to sell.

In my book, its absolutely not thr pretiest girl at the ball...to me looks like a transvestite...

Alex


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Thanks for sharing your design opinions Alex, I do respect your point of view. I'm also not a yacht designer and haven't been involved in doing so, for clients or myself. You certainly have the edge there.

To my eye, the Alerion is pretty. Certainly a dog compared to some of N. Herrshoff's designs and not the prettiest girl at the dance. But I didn't fall for that girl, instead I married the girl sitting on the sidelines. Life is full of compromises though, isn't it?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Gui,
I know the argument is over, but...... I looked at your links and no question those are classic lines. However, IMHHHO, the fact that Hoyt has included some nods to modernity in the mast and sail design doesn't make it look like the french whore you describe her as. I agree that the boat might be better served with a tiller. The racing wheel seems a bit much (perhaps its an option?). But the rig isn't too main-heavy for me and I think the large cockpit is very inviting. To each his own! I would gladly take any one of them.


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## TSteele65 (Oct 19, 2006)

With regards to AE 28, I love the lines, but whose bright idea was it to use an Igloo beer cooler as a step?


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Look here boats that bring the classic look with dignity, respect and proportion....
> 
> Morris M series
> 
> ...


HOW COME YOU DID NOT PUT CATALINA IN THAT LIST!!!! DONT MAKE ME GIVE YOU ANOTHER NEGATIVE REP!!!

hahahahahah! Just kidding. Cheer up.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

CD how's life...man this place is weird now....look at some of the remarks above...there's even a guy from Europe saying Europeans bad mouth America as a sport....weird...weird....I need a vacation....

Don't like it here??? sail west, keep going till you hit land....door's open...


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## john232 (Aug 18, 2003)

God Bless you NCOUNTRY. You are a great American IMHO.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Bardo said:


> Gui,
> I know the argument is over, but...... I looked at your links and no question those are classic lines. However, IMHHHO, the fact that Hoyt has included some nods to modernity in the mast and sail design doesn't make it look like the french whore you describe her as. I agree that the boat might be better served with a tiller. The racing wheel seems a bit much (perhaps its an option?). But the rig isn't too main-heavy for me and I think the large cockpit is very inviting. To each his own! I would gladly take any one of them.


Bardo, I am in for a good argument, I don't want it over, by all means...its just when it gets offensive on a low level and when people that have nothing else to say, and do say idiotic stuff that I get aggravated...but like I said, I will sail tomorrow...i don't care...

We say here if one has nothing good to say, might as well say nothing...

Look, I am a sucker for hight tech and I believe that Hoyt menat good with that rig. In fact, if you cover the boat and look at the rig its pretty nice. The same, you cover the rig, its a nice boat. The two together...that's my point.

I believe it may be a nice boat to sail and all, but to me..better options if I was going to get e new born classic...

One day...maybe one day...I might convince T34C selling me his boat...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

When things get dicey and tensions get high, just do one of the two things I do:

1) Insult Sailaway in some form or fashion. Already done. Check.

2) Pull out the photoshop and let her rip. Already done. Check.

I feel better, and hope to go sailing tomorrow too, in my _classic look with dignity, respect and proportion_ Catalina.

HAHA! Good to have you back.

- B


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Check out the Tadorne.........
Pretty little boat.

http://www.classic-boats.com/en/tadorne.php


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Anytime one says a certain boat, women, car, mtn, ski resort......._______________(fill in blank) is ugly, wonderfull etc, there will always be a detractor! Then it is up to us, ie me to figure out the why they do not like something. The Alerion to me is like Alex mentions, top rigging is pretty, boat hull is pretty, together......NOT!

how we choose a boat, is our thoughts, fortunetly, no countrys parliment, legislature, ruler etc has not said what our boats should be or not be, look like etc. 

What is a european design vs american or should north american be said.....whom know, who cares. I still feel in the end, the charter market companies are making the calls on the Oceanus style boats, NOT the buying public as I would call the posters on here. Most of us would rather be sailing what ever we can vs not sailing at all, not that I would want to be on a Buccuneer.......but then if that is all that floated and sailed.........lord help me!


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## Alden68 (Mar 21, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> The boats you don't like are more like introductory boats, aimed at people with less sailing skills, to whom is more important a large sallon with empty spaces and a place to entertain and visit whilst maintaining a modern "home" look like environment.
> 
> Alex


Does this mean that as my skills progess I will appreciate comfort and space less and less?

I was going to take an ASA class but now I figure that with the new found skills I'll only be happy cruising in this:









Where do you even put the grill?????


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think the Tadorne and others are lovely. More like reproductions of an old model than a blend of old and new technologies. I think the AE is lovely. Tag, you're it.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Alden, there are at least 3 Brenta's right next to my boat in my marina. And ne is dry now.

They are not the new one you are showing, but Brenta's none the less. They are excellent boats and sail nice. However, they are but a toy...rarely sail here because our winds are not for the faint of heart and require (like most italian boats) many many many hours of dedicated owner love and attention...once they decay...its gone, like wrinkles on a pretty lady's face.

Brentas are nice for calm waters and no waves...none of that here, so they hardly go out. Since they don't go out and there is no where to go or what to do in the boat, the owners don't sail, they don't sail, the boat decays...etc. etc. a pain in the heart to see money spent like that...with so many boats out there so better suited.. a lot of these boat buliders know very well who they are aiming...the rich man with short impulses and promises of sunsets while sailing...life, the real one, is way differnt

If I can and remember I will photograph the Brentas. OK?


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## speciald (Mar 27, 2007)

Power boat designs are much worse than sail boat designs. The Euro-style moter yachts are ugly! Unfortunately, design trends have now extended to sail boats. I agree that these designs may not be longed lived and I hope they will fall from fashion quickly. I hate swoopy boats with curve upon curve.
If these designs fall from fashion, resale value should also falter.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Don't know that I'm totally in agreement with you on this one Alex. The Euro design look in modern boats is to my mind simply the successful export of the design ideals of the Scandinavians and Italians (in particular) that really had it's genesis in the Bahaus movement of the 30's.

The first really design oriented boat I can think of was that Beneteau designed by Phillipe Stark in the 80s. Personally not my speed but it did seem to really kick off this movement towards very modern designed interiors in boats. Other manufacturers soon came to realise that people who mainly use their boats for summer day sailing and the occasional weekender found heavy teak and mahogany interiors too stifling in the heat and the paler finishes also made the interiors look larger which impressed the girlies. 

I think that the American acceptance off these boats really is just a continuation of the American acceptance of European design in general, seen in their love of European furniture and cars but just as is the case in Europe, traditionalists are still around and there will probably always be a market for the traditional boat interior. As there will alwasy be people who like antique furniture or classical art for instance.

Interestingly enough of course it was American influence that spurred the production of all those Chinese built boats with miles of teak in the cabins yet when I think of classic American yacht interiors I'd rather think of Herreschoff and his white paint with a bit of timber trim or some of the simply beautiful yet simple Hinkley interiors. You can even have a look at the interiors of classic cruising boats like Wanderer III (Hiscock) which again had virutally all white interior with some timber trim. Hiscock intended cruising in the tropics. He wanted a cool boat with as little maintenance of brightwork as possible.

Anywho, I guess everyone has there likes and dislikes in design. I loath timber trim in cars and absolutely abhor those vile steering wheels with leather and timber combined, not to mention anything white leather. Others love all that. So be it. 

As far as boat interiors are concerned my biggest beef is the lack of decent sea berths in some of these things and galleys that are useless at sea. Not to mention cabins that have so much open space that if you went over and where thrown across the cabin you'd pick up quite a bit of momentum before you arrived at the hurty bit. As someone (Jeremy Clarkson I believe ) said "speed doesn't kill you, it's the stopping that will do you in".

ps - why is it that whenever anyone is even mildy critical of the US some bozo always comes on foaming at the mouth about how "we saved you all in WW11". It's "expletive deleted" boring guys and about as relevent as the fact that the French saved your yankee buttholes in the war of independence. GET OVER IT. The world has said it's thanks but we ain't gonna spend the rest of our days kissing yankee arse. Having to endure "expletive deleted" McDonalds and Starbucks is penance enough.

(whoops, forgot I was not in "expletive deleted" off topic)


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## rossir (Aug 11, 2006)

To all : 

I would be interested in seeing some pics of YOUR interior, and how you feel it works. 

Also, if any, what has been your single most-satisfying interior modification?

Can there be a compromise between elegance and functionality?


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

This thread has been all over the board, so I might as well stray a bit further. The title talks about "interiors" (read: cabins). Many people have shown links and talked about exteriors that they like, but how about the cabins?

I'm a big fan of the salty, teaky look in a cabin. Anybody recognize these (no cheating by looking at the picture properties!)?


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Then again, below is a picture of my cabin, so even the "Euro Interiors" would be an improvement at this point. Though I do like the cozy simplicity of my 25 footer.


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## thedudeistoocool (Jun 25, 2007)

what'ya think of these ?

http://www.spirityachts.com/

I can't make up my mind of I like 'em or not
although it was good enough for 007


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Kwaltersmi,

The second of your two cabin photos reminds me of a Shannon 28. I will have to sleep on the other one...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

those are okay but i've always liked the Jed Clampett retro look


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Ding ding ding! Nice work JohnRPollard. Indeed, the second photo is a Shannon 28.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

tdw said:


> As far as boat interiors are concerned my biggest beef is the lack of decent sea berths in some of these things and galleys that are useless at sea. Not to mention cabins that have so much open space that if you went over and where thrown across the cabin you'd pick up quite a bit of momentum before you arrived at the hurty bit. As someone (Jeremy Clarkson I believe ) said "speed doesn't kill you, it's the stopping that will do you in".


Too true, Mr. Wombat. Some would say my boat is ugly and too utilitarian...well, it's MEANT to look like a Land Rover, and it has four easily secured sea berth...you know, for going to SEA! The more I've learned about safety and comfort at sea, the less I like the "big name" boats with their weak hatches, huge cockpits, little or no bridgedecks, electric winches, 24 inch "lifelines" and six feet of freeboard.

I have little use for the current dock jewellery...they are mostly condos with bars that only move above 10 knots and below 15. But the truth is is that is the sort of "sailing" 90% of people want to do. People buy not only what they are sold, but they order what most closely matches their expectations of "fun in the sun and breeze". Needless to say, that isn't a line squall, and it isn't in a 12 foot wide saloon with handholds and cabinetry that allows little more than a three or four foot drop if she should broach to.

We've had two days of 25 knots and I am deeply resenting pulling out my mast on Tuesday...bloody club!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

These pics were from advert before we bought her. Some changes have been made since. I'd probably prefer a little less timber but Ms Wombat likes it.

Other than adding shower and new lights the major change we have made is the stove. Out with the old spirit thing as shown and in with a Force 10 gas range.

About to install all new door latches with a more positive lock.

Next step will be new upholstery. I'll be pushing for plain canvas/sunbrella. Aslo need to add some extra handholds. New bookshelves also going in hopefully before Xmas.

We bought Raven as a toe back into the water after nearly ten years without a boat. Intended to spend no money on her and resell by now. As is the way with boats I grow more fond of her all the time and now intend keeping her for at least another year or two so am happy to throw a bit of money at her to improve the comfort levels. She does have a comfortable sea kindly interior. No curved sofas, straight line to starboard, L shape to port. Perfect for two people, bit of a squeeze for four but two is our preference. Would prefer a bigger forward cabin, better nav setup, bigger head and bigger galley but that will only come with bigger boat. As she sits she is OK. Not perfect but OK.





Sorry I don't have any more recent pics on the puter.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

To the furry wombat, and others, 

Sorry for staryucks, unfortunetly, it's world HQ i in the old Sears bldg in Seattle. Much nicer place when it was a Sears!

marty


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## soul searcher (Jun 28, 2006)

We like our boat, it is light enough to feel airy and enough wood to make it feel warm.
I have a lot of photos here. http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e130/svsoulsearcher/?start=0


> Some would say my boat is ugly and too utilitarian...well,


 I have heard those very words.

Beautiful boat Mr. wombat.


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

Man there are a lot of subjects alive in this thread. I think I will add some.


A friend and I were talking about my 11 year old granddaughters comment that "Papa, sarcasm doesn't work on me!". His comment was "How in the hell do you communicate with her then?" 

NCountry, are you sure you are only middle aged? We know you are grumpy, but need to qualify the age thing. If you have read any of Alex's (Guilietta) posts you would know that he has a great sense of humor on this board. He is the same in real life. Sarcasm is there obviously, and you did not get the joke. Too bad, because you certainly got off on the wrong foot on this one. It's like walking into a biker bar and asking if any of those a** holes wants to fight. You will get one. 

The US is a little divided at the moment to say the very least. Half watch CNN, and half watch FOX. We should really require all of our citizens to watch a little of both and THINK about an issue rather than being told about it. So, we have some that can't forget WWII and some that apologize for it. We have definetely forgotten France's help in gaining our independence, and they did give us Lady Liberty to remember it by. I do not appreciate France's current politics, but I am still visiting Paris next week because of the history and beauty. 

Truth be told, most of us ARE Europeans or Asians. Ask the Native Americans. Their bows and arrows could not send us home, so we became Americans. As I like it here I will say "Thank God we had gun powder then too". We learned a few things along the way and now manage to send back some of our best, like McDonald's, Starbucks, etc. Hey, we can't get growth from those things here any longer because we have them on every corner, so we want to share. Glad you are enjoying them TDW!

As to interiors, I want it comfortable, safe, and easy to take care of. The less work the better. Hell, I like the clean interior of the over priced Alerion. Sorry Alex, it is a pretty boat, but the coolor step is just plain stupid in a boat of this cost. Guess we are trying to go back to a simpler time....if you can afford to pay for it. 

Don't tell Alex to go drink some California or French wine. Those are fighting words to him. Portuguese wine...the only way to go. 

Now, the important vote. I vote for # 2, The Catalina Girl. At least something good came out of this thread.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

soul searcher said:


> We like our boat, it is light enough to feel airy and enough wood to make it feel warm.
> I have a lot of photos here. http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e130/svsoulsearcher/?start=0
> 
> I have heard those very words.
> ...


Thank you. As with yours the interior is plain and functional with just enough timber to give it a bit of warmth.

I'd reckon you , Val and me are on the same wavelength.

One of the things I see occasionally is people saying that they demand all the mod cons because they have no wish to go camping on their boat. it always strikes me as a bit crazy. I appreciate that some dockbound liveaboards have different priorities but if I was to go liveaboard (as distinct from out there cruising) then I'd get a stinker. I'm happy to cope with the camping aspects of life on the water in return for voyaging under sail and the handiness that comes with a smallish boat.

I'm also happy with a smallish boat cos I know that if push comes to shove Ms Wombat will be able to look after herself when she has finally pushed me overboard. 

Seriously, I don't want heaps of complicated systems (electric winches, in mast electric furling, air conditioning, washing machine, clothes dryer blah blah blah.) Having to keep on top of refrigeration, engine and various electrical items is bad enough. We will carry a computer which will double as tv/dvd player.

ps - Tommy T - I was not slagging all Americans only those who have that very defensive attitude. Sure there are Americans who wouldn't like me nor I them but for sure I basically like the place and people. You could substitute Australians for Americans and the same would hold true.


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## thedudeistoocool (Jun 25, 2007)

tdw

you have no idea how touching it is to know that you are so very concerned about your wifes ability to manage well without you, 
after having mudered you    

it must be love ! and good for you

maybe someday I'll meet a woman who I wish well after killing me 
instead of the other way around


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Portuguese wine...the only way to go.


 Yep - some of that there Portugese wine and a good horsemeat steak - guaranteed you'll be going once an hour for a good 2 days ... 

Actually, the women are to blame for the way boats look these days. Back before Germaine Greer managed to convince the world that women were more than chattels, a boat looked like a boat should look. Functional, wooden, unadorned but capable - kind of like one of them Lisbon hookers that wait for sailors.

But once the little ladies started going out to work and refused to hand over their paycheques without a little say in how it got spent - well all heck just broke loose. All of a sudden they just got opinions about everything. Automatic transmissions on station wagons, dishwashers, and when it came to the boats well - it seems they liked a little plaid on their cushions. So, what could the men do - it was that or never no nookie no nevermore.

The yards did their best - all those IOR beasties that took two hands and a big bicep to hold a course downwind - figuring the little missus might give up out of sheer exhaustion when she had to hold the tiller, but nope - darned if they didn't go out and get some astrologer to invent the "Aries" and the frickin' boats could steer themselves while she took hubby down below to talk about the curtains.

Women being what they are - well things just went from ugly to Ikea. To be honest, the men didn't put up much of a fight. Seems the majority of them were willing to eat store-bought bread if it meant there was enough money coming in to buy more TV's and take vacations on a plane.

So, if you want the traditional look back again, the answer is simple. Get the women back into the kitchen, pregnant with a pot in one hand and a bairn in the other. Learn to live with one car, one TV and driving vacations, and I'll wager that boats will soon enough get back to what they used to be.


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

Wombat,

No slagging taken. Actually, you could substitute almost any free countries name and the same would be true. In fact, even the dictatorships have opposition, they just deal with it differently. You gotta love this world, everybody likes to ***** about something, but very few stand in line to leave it.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Sailormann said:


> Yep - some of that there Portugese wine and a good horsemeat steak - guaranteed you'll be going once an hour for a good 2 days ...
> 
> Actually, the women are to blame for the way boats look these days. Back before Germaine Greer managed to convince the world that women were more than chattels, a boat looked like a boat should look. Functional, wooden, unadorned but capable - kind of like one of them Lisbon hookers that wait for sailors.
> 
> ...


Crewed by lonely farts who havn't managed to get a root in decades unless we are talking about the aforementined Lisbon Hookers.

One has to vaguely agree with you except for the pregnant bit anyway. Only problem with those old timber boats, oakum and pitch in the forepeak, bucket for a crapper, massively undersized winches, gaff rigs, canvas sails and three inches of mould on every interior surface was that very few of the skippers ever got laid.

I'll accept the fact that Ms Wombat insists on a working loo and hot showers in exchange for a little bit of the old rumpy pumpy, her generally good natured outlook and not getting pushed overboard.

Again ps to TommyT, she does sometimes read this gumph so I'm hoping that by saying nice things about her every now and then I might just get to stay on deck.

(Edit) Whoops, sorrry that PS should have been aimed at the cool dude.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Yeah well, WOmbat, I take offense. It is war. WAR! I don't know what you said, but it offended me. 

I have several photoshops waiting for ya. I have done all the damage to Sailaway that can be done. He has surrendered.

Let's see what I can pull out of my bag the next several days... don't go into Off Topic if you know what is good for you.

- CD


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## soul searcher (Jun 28, 2006)

> Seriously, I don't want heaps of complicated systems (electric winches, in mast electric furling, air conditioning, washing machine, clothes dryer blah blah blah.) Having to keep on top of refrigeration, engine and various electrical items is bad enough. We will carry a computer which will double as tv/dvd player.


definatly on the same page. climate controled by mother N. and everything else runs on elbow grease of one variety or another and Joni is perfectly capable of sailing the boat on her own.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Yeah well, WOmbat, I take offense. It is war. WAR! I don't know what you said, but it offended me.
> 
> I have several photoshops waiting for ya. I have done all the damage to Sailaway that can be done. He has surrendered.
> 
> ...


Oh Oh, CD is Revolting.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

tommyt said:


> Wombat,
> 
> No slagging taken. Actually, you could substitute almost any free countries name and the same would be true. In fact, even the dictatorships have opposition, they just deal with it differently. You gotta love this world, everybody likes to ***** about something, but very few stand in line to leave it.


That's very true but other than some fella a couple of thousand years back very few seem to come back after they do leave.


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

I thought all sailboat interiors were supposed to look like this...










What's with all the wood and stuff?


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

tenuki said:


> I thought all sailboat interiors were supposed to look like this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe that's what they look like *before* the new owners go and clutter them with radios, lights, instruments, safety gear and stuff...

Dunno - I've never seen a boat that clean! 

--Cameron


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## john232 (Aug 18, 2003)

Know I have time to add some more American brand boats to my list. I for got to mention Valiant yachts which is only 1.5 hours from where I live in the Dallas Texas area. Hinkley, Hylas, Tartan, Saga yachts, Columbia, colegate, Com-Pac yachts, Hunter,Catalina,Alden,EnsignSpars, Alerion,Island Packet,Precision Boat Works, My favorite Designers are Chuck Paine, Bob Perry, Jim Taylor. Creaock, And the World best Designer EVER: Stevens of Sparkman & Stevens We have a rich Heritage in the USA Yacht World.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

john232 said:


> We have a rich Heritage in the USA Yacht World.


Off course you do, and I know that very well, what I don't agree is the word "Euro" you used. But again, I am sure you're not the one who started it..

Anyway, i agree with you, the "American-Euro-whatever" style is pretty horrible and cold.

Actually now I just remembered something else, I was insidea new Jeaneau 49performance this summer, and was amazed at this: There is absolutely not one single piece of wood inside..none...its designed to look kinda classic, but once you touch smell and feel, its all plastic and fake wood.

Gets worse, a 49 footer doesn't even have an adjusting backstay.
The friend that bought it was assuming the boat to be all wood inside, as he bought it a Boat show, and the show boat was all wood.

Once the materials go "cheesy" everything else does. Agree??


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Giulietta said:


> Please, stop calling them Euro this Euro that...what the hell are you talking about.
> 
> For the record, we call that the *American interior*. Why?? Simple, more European boats are sold in the US than in any other Continent.
> 
> ...


I take it you dont like americans.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Europeans do bad-mouth Americans as a recreation.... Europe is absolutely full of it, and I live there. And it's weird. I sat next to a Swiss in Basle one day. He thought I was American. I watched incredulous, as the veins bulged over his shirt collar, and the expletives echoed. 

It's a blind stupid recreation I hear all the time. The French are up to it, constantly, with Germans a lagging second.

If you race into "you guys have no taste", to Americans you are not going to get a rise out of them. You will rile them though.

In all the years I have visited North America, not once, not once, have I run into a similar sentiment from an American about any European. Not once. They are kind and courteous and very well mannered. When I go to Europe, I often get a lesson in contrast I can tell you.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Rockter said:


> Europeans do bad-mouth Americans as a recreation.... Europe is absolutely full of it, and I live there. And it's weird. I sat next to a Swiss in Basel one day. He thought I was American. I watched incredulous, as the veins bulged over his shirt collar, and the expletives echoed.
> 
> It's a blind stupid recreation I hear all the time. The French are up to it, constantly, with Germans a lagging second.
> 
> ...


I was in Europe for a little over 9 weeks and yes I experienced the same thing that rockter did. Lots of talk also about the "American army". But I love Europe, so much to see, learn and do.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I love Europe too. Its the Europeans I can't stand.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I don't have a problem with any people, a person here and there, yes.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Kidding, kidding, kidding. Lighten up shipmates! We are all on the same downward spiral toward dicrepitude and death, so we might as well enjoy each other on the way!


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## AjariBonten (Sep 7, 2007)

*At the risk of being skewered .......*

I think I'll jump into this one and point out that maybe some of you are railing about the trees; but missing the forest.

To each his own; every boat is "just right" for some purpose or another, even if it's purpose is to sit on your front lawn as a planter-box.

Example:

How many threads here are started with an opening post that goes something like this?

"What boat should I buy? I want to do a Polar Circumnavigation with my family of eight. My needs are this - I want to be able to single-hand it, MUST be a true "BLUE WATER boat, I want a salon that I can dance in, I want a fru-fru boudoir I can have an orgy for 4 in, and I need a place to put my 'PoolQueen 6000' gimbaled billiards table."

Inevitably, the response is a more sarcastic and (totally accurate) version of; "You can have one; but not the other".

Allow me to do just a tad of psychoanalyzing here:

Might it be that what the purists are objecting to is less what these boats look like; and more about how the sailing community et.al. is evolving? (IE: more dock-o-miniums, more armchair sailors buying the "frosting" while not even being aware of "the cake", etc. etc.

Prepare yourselves; with the "Boomers" finally reaching retirement age, it's gonna get a lot worse before it gets any better.

The market will adjust; and with the rampant commercialism of the generation just coming into their "spending years", I shudder to think ............

Another poster, I think, was dead on when he pointed out that some of the biggest offenders in this conversation are also "in bed" deeply with the hugest of the charter companies. And the charter companies have the market .......

Myself, I love the look of the Morris's, Hinckleys, etc. I respect the traits of the HR's, the Valiants, etc.

But you know what? I also have to respect the value of a Bennetaue, a Hunter, or a Jenneau; *in the right application*.

And THAT really is the issue, the right boat for the right job, even if it's sitting in your yard, filled with sand, for your grandkids to play Pirate on.

And YES, I join in...........


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

"Women being what they are - well things just went from ugly to Ikea." Classic, thank you!

I don't recall seeing any of those teardrop windows on any American made boats. Only on European made boats.
Those stubborn American builders have no clue as to what the American buyer wants. Or are they building for the European market?

We did indeed save France's butt in WWII. Call it payback for the war of Independence. But all of that is old news.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Rockter said:


> Europeans do bad-mouth Americans as a recreation.... Europe is absolutely full of it, and I live there. And it's weird. I sat next to a Swiss in Basle one day. He thought I was American. I watched incredulous, as the veins bulged over his shirt collar, and the expletives echoed.
> 
> It's a blind stupid recreation I hear all the time. The French are up to it, constantly, with Germans a lagging second.
> 
> ...


I am in complete (I don't even know the word)....

I'm from Southern Europe...you must be talking about Northern Europe, where you are....that sucks....you're right...people there can be real dicks...

Here, and I mean Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece I never ever heard anyone badmouth America, or Americans, in fact we like them very much, and for your information, before the war in Afganistan started, Mr. Bush had his kick off meeting in Portugal with Barroso, PM of Portugal, Aznar of Spain and Blair of england.....so turn your trouble making speech elsewhere..

In fact two sailneters were in Portugal recentely, all you have to do is ask them, if they ever felt what you're saying....its nice to throw crap at one from the confort of one's computer miles away (I call that the Bravery of being out of range)....you either don't know what you're talking about, or you should start refering to norther and Southern Europe....but again...maybe you just like to say things....for the heck of it....trouble maker...that is waht I think.

I do work in the US all year round, for your info, and have allways been treated wonderfully by Americans. In fact if you knew me and bothered to read many of my posts I am very appreciative of US friendship....and am frineds with many...

By the way...if you don't like Europe, you too can sail west till you hit land....  

By the way, if you live in Europe, how come you refer to it as THERE??? I am in Europe, so for me is HERE.....easy to find out....anyway...

And just before the crap you're stirring goes any further, have a look here CLICK, and see that...its in Portuguese, but we're there since September 2003. Not many I know but our contribution nonethe less...
And fot your information, the whole Country here is against the war BUT we ALL feel and support the US because we are allied and members of NATO...one member goes to war WE all go...so don't say we don't like Americans...or if you do, insert "Northern" before Europeans. Thanks


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## equitiman (Jul 1, 2004)

Man this is ridiculous....

Some Americans don't like Europeans
Some Europeans don't like Americans
Some Americans like Europeans
Some Europeans like Americans

...problem solved.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

It's unfortunate the original poster started this thread with such bigotry - which subsequently triggered the resulting mixed responses. I typically do not like to stereotype people, but in another thread, he admits to having worked as an autobody painter for over 30 years with General Motors - perhaps explaining his attitude toward foreign competition. 

I find this whole American Euro-bashing and European US bashing both troubling and inappropriate for a sailing related forum - should be moved to Off-topic.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

THis is getting out of hand. First of all, Giu is not anti American at all. He has been a great contributor to this forum and enjoys joking around. His comments should not be construed otherwise.

Second, I have tried to push this off to humor, but once again it is getting too hot. If we can keep it focused on the original subject without turning it into a Euorpean-AMerican debate (which serves no purpose) than I will keep the thread open, otherwise it has no value and I will close it.

ENough said.

- CD


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

And what IS the original topic CD?


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## rossir (Aug 11, 2006)

it's about interiors, and i thought everyone was going to bite the bullet and show us your dirty little insides!

Giu... you have a custom boat, you started from scratch and have been very forthcoming about showing us the construction details of your boat in another thread- great stuff! How about showing us how you resolved the interior?


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I have problems too when people from Europe, Canada, Australia etc. trash my country, the people here or our motives.
So I can understand the reaction when someone here makes blanket assertions about "them". I don't think Europe is monolithic any more than America is and I'm sure from my own travels that opinions vary widely within the individual countries there.

This thread is drifting far from its' original purpose but there IS design discussion here so I choose not to move it to off topic now BUT...*notice is served that anyone who wishes to carry on a Euro vs. USA PEOPLE discussion should move to off topic as I will delete any further posts here that do not focus on design. *


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Discussing interior design and what you like or don't like. THat is fine. Bashing Euro or America is not.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

rossir said:


> How about showing us how you resolved the interior?


Sure....I have it in other threads, but here you go.

Its American Red Cherrywood for the furniture (yes I bought the logs in the US and had them shipped to Portugal, believe it or not), and Panga-panga wood for the floor panels, with white anti skid stripes. We decided on no plastic inside, except in the heads, for obvious reasons.

Is it perfect?? No...
beautifull?? to me yes...to you..I don't know...

Practical 100% yes!! designed to be at sea, based on my experience and needs, the way I wanted. The doors were cut based on my shoulder width and my height. The heads so you can shower with arms open.
The cabinet doors open towards the bottom so you dont get stuff fall off when you open them at sea...

The bunks have strap rings under the matresses, and the sides are coushioned with leather and foam so you can sleep sideways.

















The salon









Navigation table

















Galley









Forward cabin head

















Forward cabin









Starbord Cabin (Port is the same)

















The salon head









Engine compartment


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Technology? Friends, technology plays a huge role in design these days. Designers are artists, artists can be extravagent. They are bound only by the limits of the technology they use and the materials afforded to them. TB mentioned portholes. I believe, with no evidence other than common sense to support it, that portholes were round because of the technology of the day. It was the strongest way to seal a hole, make it round. Now technology affords you make different types of holes and get the same sealed affect. Same with interiors. Compressed board that is sturdy and cheap allows for easier design and construction. Technology is changing drastically everyday. The cutting edge of design(aesthetic) is and has been in Italy and France for a long time. Its the way things are. Ikea was a huge success when it first came to America, but people are starting to realize what is quality and what is not. I go to Ikea to look at the designs and the ideas, then I purchase similar items built of higher quality elsewhere. Everything has its place, no? Signing off.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

There's a forest of teak in the interiors of Nauticat boats, which have been built this way in Finland for 40 years. Many people may feel there's just too much wood, others can't get enough of it.

I'm a bit ambivilent regarding teak interiors. The effect is warm and comforting and requires a level of craftsmanship above the workmanship needed for fitting out with molded plastic shapes, laminated bulkheads, pre-fab cabinetry and shinyl vinyl coverings. On the other hand, the effect can be dark and if exposed dirrectly to sunlight, or subjected to heavy wear, eventually requires refinishing.

For the most part though, I like my boat's interior. Very simple in design, reflecting ageless Scandinavian design principles, unpretentious functionality.

Here are a few interior pics from my NC33 - in a very lived-in state. I've resized them to small images to obscure the messy conditions. There is ample storage designed for living aboard, but these images were taken while in port during a week-long cruise, so things are not stowed away as they would be when underway. Please excuse the clutter.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Your pillows say TRUEBLUE...where did you get them? Are they heavy?


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Polyester fiber filled, Sunbrella fabric, custom embroidered by a local interior decorator - so, they're very lightweight.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Ahh thanks.

I will send a pm next time I go to the US, so I can have some made...do you think you can ask them to make me a few?

Thanks, mullet boy...


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Sure thing diaper-boy.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I just love the wood interiors. The more wood, the better!!! What ever happened to the selling of TB's boat because it leaned to much..?


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Guil has what we would call a well appointed boat. The Interior is beautiful, easy on the eye and enhances conversations over a glass of your favorite beverage.
The cabinet doors hinged at the bottom is an excellent idea that will be copied many times over. And this is just a small part of the overall interior of Guil's boat.
Yes! A well appointed boat.
Guil's better half may have added her ideas on this. 
Sorry Guil, But we men have to stay on the good side of the opposite gender, or we'll be sleeping alone.


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## rossir (Aug 11, 2006)

Giu:

Gorgeous, of course! Thank you for the peek. I particularly like that you thought through the fore-cabin door opening in toward the saloon. I don'toften see that, but it always strikes me as odd that the door would be made to open in toward a cabin with little wiggle room.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Boasun said:


> Guil has what we would call a well appointed boat. The Interior is beautiful, easy on the eye and enhances conversations over a glass of your favorite beverage.
> The cabinet doors hinged at the bottom is an excellent idea that will be copied many times over. And this is just a small part of the overall interior of Guil's boat.
> Yes! A well appointed boat.
> Guil's better half may have added her ideas on this.
> Sorry Guil, But we men have to stay on the good side of the opposite gender, or we'll be sleeping alone.


Thanks Boasun. My boat was my answer to the fact that I did not like any of the production boats (inside and out) AND none would be this fast...so we reasoned...if you can't find one...have one built...yes? It was only more expensive, and drove me crazy...

The interior tone was chosen by my wife from a variety of woods. Cherry won over teak and mahogany, because it makes the boat sober and light at the same time.

The layout was designed by me as well as all the inside features. Giulietta did say the way and how equiped the galley, heads and bed rooms had to be, the number of heads and cabins. She also chose the toilets, the sinks, taps and drapes, floor panel wood and the blue glass in the heads.

The rest is mine, with a lot of help from her. She also chose ceiling materials and colours.

Now Boasun....you're defenetaly an American with great taste...  How can I offend you? Do you have a mullet?


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

rossir said:


> Giu:
> 
> Gorgeous, of course! Thank you for the peek. I particularly like that you thought through the fore-cabin door opening in toward the saloon. I don'toften see that, but it always strikes me as odd that the door would be made to open in toward a cabin with little wiggle room.


If all you have is a little wiggle room then after careful measurements, swap the hinges & latch around and have the door open the otherway. It is your boat and you can and should customize it to fit your way of doing things.

I still like the way Guil did his boat... May be euro in nature, but there is no faults in it. And it has Classic STYLE.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

rossir said:


> Giu:
> 
> Gorgeous, of course! Thank you for the peek. I particularly like that you thought through the fore-cabin door opening in toward the saloon. I don'toften see that, but it always strikes me as odd that the door would be made to open in toward a cabin with little wiggle room.


Thanks...you obviously have tast too....   damn...too many Americans with taste now.... 

Man this boat took two years to build!!!! Off course everything was thought over 1000 times. In fact we had the builder make a pressed wood furniture before the final so we coild have a "feel" inside..that's when the door details, etc. were thought. Everything is the way I wanted how I wanted, if others don't like it, don't come aboard    

Gets better, so I can have access to the compartments under the beds, without having to lift the beds, they have long front loading drawers. Each bed has a small secret space to hide documents etc. when in port, etc...

If I could change something today, I would have removed the nav table, its useless...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Boasun said:


> May be euro in nature


Watch it........photoshop.....


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Sorry Guil No Mullet. 
And have been to your beautiful country twice now and enjoyed my far to short of stays there. 
Fair winds and following seas for your vessel.

The Nav table could be where your kids can do their home work and still be able to go out with you.


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

Originally Posted by *CapnHand*  
_You left out the most popular US sailboat of all, MacGregor._



TSteele65








Ne'er Do Well

Every boat is a compromise, but those things are cheese-eating surrender monkeys.

My "cheese-eating surrender monkey" MacGregor with it's 700# steel swing keel and little 7 1/2 hp Honda made the trip from Los Angeles to San Diego (about 100 Miles) in just under 2hrs. 20mins. besting my old record by almost 10 mins.. 
I will admit we motored all the way and burned 10 gals. of gas. even though I rarely used more than 1/4 throttle.
We were quite comfortable even though facing a 50 mph headwind.
If you want to race(my boat, your boat) coast to coast just let me know. 
Sailing is just a hoby to me along with a lot of others. I would not take a 40ft motor home out in the desert just to see the sun rise and sets nor would I want to be in the middle of an ocean for the same reason.

huu, huu, huu, splash---who cut the cheese??


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Giu
Very nice indeed.
The salon seating is curved; no need for sleeping there?
The round sinks; are you (and her) happy with them?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

xort said:


> Giu
> Very nice indeed.
> The salon seating is curved; no need for sleeping there?
> The round sinks; are you (and her) happy with them?


Yes, its round, but long, and if you remove the back cushions its fine. Also the salon table lowers (I have an extra set of legs that are heavier so I don't use them) and it transforms into a king size bed.

We actually like the round sinks, saves space and is easier to clean also.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

You will never get tired of hearing it Alex, so I'll tell you again . . . Beautiful boat design, you're very talented and fortunate.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

tdw said:


> You could substitute Australians for Americans and the same would hold true.


I think it was an Australian, Ronnie Johns, who said it best (Warning: NOT for Fred, Alex!)


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Yes, its round, but long, and if you remove the back cushions its fine. Also the salon table lowers (I have an extra set of legs that are heavier so I don't use them) and it transforms into a king size bed.
> 
> We actually like the round sinks, saves space and is easier to clean also.


We are going to have the king-size bed idea (putting a mattress over a table that can be lowered) as well. and our stowage already opens at the top. I have square, deep sinks in the galley, because you can use one sink to wash and the other to dry by putting the plates "standing up".

We have the round sink in the head, and it is helpful when underway to determine how rough it is by watching the soapy water!


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

Giulietta said:


> If I could change something today, I would have removed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's why I like the way Nauticat designed the giant pilothouse table with an also giant drawer that holds full size charts. The red/white chart light is over the table and the table is on tracks with stops for access all around. At the wheel there is a mini opening table to hold or lay out a folded chart in your face while steering. Sorry for the mega pixles and it looks like I pasted them in mid quote/post


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

EDIT - Stan posted just before mine . . . can you make the pics any bigger Stan? (g)

Giulietta's dinette must make a very comfortable berth, after the table drops down. In addition to the forward and aft private cabins, we have a pilothouse table with an angled settee which converts to a berth and the convertable salon/galley dinette.

The legs on the latter table fold under when we use it as a fourth double berth. It actually transforms into a very comfortable stateroom, with drapes that draw together and overhead operable hatches.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Stan, very very nice..its the same as TB's? right?

By the way, we have the same table...same shape and edges. Are you moving in that photo?? it says 7 knots boat speed.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

TB that is very nice and looks confortable too. why is your table different from Stan's? different years?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

By the way Stan, the reason I would remove the nav table is not because IT is useless, but because I don't use it at all...


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## tommyt (Sep 21, 2002)

Alex,

I did not know that the salon table dropped down. Interesting. I still have a picture in my mind of waking up and seeing Alexandre sleeping curved around the setee. Of course, he did prepare well for sleeping with beer, wine, and port. He looked none the less for wear in the morning....well, late morning!

I actually thought your nav station worked fine, except for all the stuff you fill that desk top with. Compared to my nav station yours is huge.


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

No... TB's and my interior only have the galley in common. Mine is the 'Live Aboard' interior that came out in the 331's with a separate shower instead of the extra dining area, no second head, and different berth configurations . No... I'm not moving I think the rest of the 0 is blocked by the hand rail and the .37 would be about right for the river feeding the Chesapeake that it was taken in at survey time 2 years ago.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Stan's 331 is a later model, his version though has only one dinette up in the pilothouse and I believe an enlarged head with a shower down where we have another full sized dinette. I think his also has a single berth in the V - where ours has a double.

The pilothouse seating is more comfortable in his boat however.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Not sure if Stan's pilothouse has the large portside chart table at the helm, but this area serves as the nav station and stores full-size charts in the compartment below.


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

The 331's come with a few quite different interior options plus anything you want them to make for you. I'm not running a hotel. There is just my wife and I so I don't need 2 heads, 2 dining rooms, and this winter I will finally convert the forward berth into a pure storage area. I squared off the aft berth to make it almost queen sized. Comfort for the 2 of us - Perfect.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Stan,
We cruise with family & friends at times, so the extra berths were very convenient. I can see how your layout works very well for you and Christy.


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

Hey.... this is cute.... TB and I are having a pissin contest as to whose NC is better.....       Just remember it's all very simple ...... as in some of the earlier spats on the original posters subject - The Other guy is Always Wrong ...... or IT's Aways His Fault......... whatever.....


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

No pissin contest Stan, you know I can piss further . Your boat is definitely nicer . . . should be for what you paid for it.


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

Me and the bank........ joined at the hip for a while........


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Hey Stan do you have a mullet??  

TB sent me a mail saying you have a Camaro on stands, and your boats sucks and you're really ugly and your boat stinks...

TB's not nice....  

(I'm only kidding)


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

christyleigh said:


> Me and the bank........ joined at the hip for a while........


A good thing about taking 2 years to build your boat is it gives you time to pay for it...mine's all mine....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Interiors of boats are usually designed for the area the boat builder and designer live. Most of those places are quite sunny and hospitable. But if you live in the Pacific North West or coastal BC, heck I'll throw in coastal Alaska as well, light can be a real issue. Many think you have to live in the high north to get "cabin fever" but not so, you can live in sunlight deprived Washington, BC or Alaska and feel the effects of no sun for weeks. Trust me, people just get crankier; I get crankier.

When I did my first haul out on my boat a couple of years ago, I was on the hard beside a guy who had a boat I really envied. He was swapping out diesel engines so he was there for quite a while. The day he was leaving he invited me up to see the interior of his boat. When I went below, the very first thought that crossed my mind was - "what a perfect place to commit suicide." It was dark, all wood, dark wood.

Many here want to leave sailboating and go over to power, not because of the faster speed, but because they feel like they are living in a basement in a sailboat. I suspect some of you have heard that critique of sailboats. Power boats just feel brighter and more cheerful. I have told my friends that the way the interior is finished and the number of windows lead to the "basement" feel and that if they got the right sailboat, it would feel more open and spacious and "brighter;" like the Sceptre 41/41 made here in Vancouver.

The play of light in a living environment is critically important. If you are from my generation or older (hint: rsn48.... 48 = birth year), then dark wood panelling was all the rage in "exclusive" clubs, boats, and some RV's. I ran into a guy who moved to my area - an area with a lot of rain, 90 + inches a year. He made the mistake of painting his condo's interior in dark colours and found his home depressing; he hadn't linked the paint with our weather. If you live in Santa Fe, then dark colours can be okay, lots of light; if you live in a monsoon west coast area, dark colours are depressing.

So I like a boat with lighter coloured wood and more windows.


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

Giulietta said:


> Hey Stan TB sent me a mail saying you have a Camaro on stands


Well.... to comment on both of your posts.... No 'extra hot rods' in fact I just traded in a 9 year old sub-compact chevy for the new cheapest sub-compact car in the country. I have a 15 year old pickup that is only used to plow mine and my mothers driveways, haul the wood out of the woods that I heat my house with, and cart big stuff to the boat and back. The only way I could pay for my boat in 2 years would be to sell my house. We are not in the income bracket to afford a newer NC but circumstances allow it now..... and hopefully until it's paid for. As I mentioned way back when we got off on the wrong foot we live in two totally different financial worlds


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

rsn48 said:


> So I like a boat with lighter coloured wood and more windows.


That's one of the many reasons I love my pilothouse. Teak, like everything else, bleaches in the sun. You wouldn't beleive the difference in the color of the pilothouse teak from the other areas that have never seen the sun or even the area covered by a closed overlapping closet door. If not outside, the pilothouse is where I spend all the daylight hours enjoying the view - inside and out. 360 degree windows plus 2 large overhead hatches  I've always dreamed of the classic 'teak cavern' but now I have the best of both worlds


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I have to say that for me the Nauticat is one of the nicest things going around. Couple of issues with the interiors (see below) but in general I love 'em.

Regading Giulietta she is without doubt an absolutely beautiful thing. OK so not my speed (to much draft for one) but beautiful nonetheless. I'd not be happy with the layout down below but that just goes to show its horses for courses. I also don't cruise with a couple of kids, just me and the missus. 

Everything about Raven or any future boat is predicated on the fact that we are a couple. We've found that we rarely sit down, we usually prefer to lie down, except when eating while at rest. Find it more comfortable particularly when under way. So for us we want two full length settees, curved seating is out, and that means the full length galley is out for us, preferring an L or U galley. At sea, one of us can be in the cockpit and the other wedged into the leeward settee which of course doubles as a seaberth.

To that end, two heads would be nice but only for the extra crapper. Certainly do not want two showers. In the size of boat we aspire to, that second crapper is probably going to be a bucket. (ahem, of course it will have it's own holding tank, we are talking 21st century liberal greenie bucket here. Yeah right.)

Given that Raven is not a big boat (34') her aft cabin/quarterberth while theoretically a double berth is really far too cramped for two people to sleep in unless one of them wants a meaningful relationship with the steering quadrant. So, at anchor we sleep in the forward cabin. This is a bit of a problem cos the peak of the forward berth is too narrow to sleep with our heads forward and I'm getting a tad long in the tooth and short in the limber to get in and out of the V double backwards. Head could do with a bit more elbow room as well.

I guess it comes down to accepting (as we have) that we do need something a bit bigger. I doubt any bigger than 38-42' depending on displacement. Just enough to still keep the gear small enough for one or two people to easily handle while giving us a roomier forward cabin, bigger galley and bigger heads and a quarter cabin for the occasional guest. The extra storage space that would come from the increased size would not hurt. Purely from comfort level I'd be quite happy to go pilot house. 

We've contemplated centre cockpit but if we do go down that path it will be a compromise on our part. Both of us both much prefer an aft cockpit and I like sleeping up forward when at anchor. 

On the other hand should financial situation mean that we couldn't afford a bigger boat then we could cope on Raven without undue hardship. She has evrything we need, just lacks a few things we want. As some ancient sage once said "you can't always get what you want, but if you try, sometimes, you can get what you need". (Thanks Keef)

I do stress that my desire to minimise the amount of technical gizmos on board is less to do with the cost as it is to do with the maintenance and energy consumption. Anything that requires more than a decent solar panel and running the donk more than an hour a day is out.

One last point, I cannot for the life of me figure out these boats that have an aft cabin where the berth runs under the cockpit with bugger all headroom even when lying down. Looks great in the plans and the brochures but strikes me as a totally stupid arrangement.


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## soul searcher (Jun 28, 2006)

Gui,
Is it hard to cook in your galley while you are underway?
I really like the idea of the galley across from the table but don't know if I, me, personaly could give up a lee side berth.
But at anchor it would be the bomb i grew up in my parents kitchen it was always the best place in the house and that arrangement reminds me of that.
Its funny but everyone wants a boat thats workable at sea but when it comes down to it most cruising boats are at anchor or the dock way more than they are underway. I read a break down by Lynn Pardy and was amazed at how little they were on passage and how long they were sitting still.


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## Trekka (Jul 16, 2006)

rsn48 said:


> When I went below, the very first thought that crossed my mind was - "what a perfect place to commit suicide." It was dark, all wood, dark wood.
> 
> Many here want to leave sailboating and go over to power, not because of the faster speed, but because they feel like they are living in a basement in a sailboat.
> ...
> The play of light in a living environment is critically important.


I know exactly what you mean. Even when panelled with nice, quality wood it can be just a _teak cave. _

When I was looking for a boat a few years ago I had my heart set hard on a center cockpit aft cabin, shoal draft. Drove up and down the east coast looking for the right one (that I could afford). While scanning ads one day a listing for a CSY 33 caught my eye. It was a two cabin deep draft boat - _NOT_ what I was looking for - but the accompanying picture held my attention, and it was w/in the upper limits of my budget, so I went and took a look.

I climbed up the ladder in the boatyard, thinking warily about how deep the water would have to be, but was impressed right away once on deck. The moment I stepped down the companionway _I was in love_. While I did not buy that specific boat, I knew from that day on that I wanted a CSY33 and would give up my longed-for aft cabin - and shoal draft - to have one.

The CSY 33 has 6 long portlights around the main cabin. Two on each side and two forward. Many have a porthole on the aft bulkhead of the galley opening into the cockpit, and I added one on mine. There are two 20" hatches overhead of the fwd section of the main cabin, and a similar hatch over the head, and another for the fwd cabin. The main cabin is bathed in light - for the first time I could call one a salon w/o feeling silly. The galley is great, U shaped open end fwd. One can work there w/o facing a closed corner, for it has a ports aft and port, and is open to the rest of the cabin starboard and fwd. Now the ports in the head and fwd cabin are small, but I found I do not have any issues there. Those overhead hatches help a lot.

I spend much of my work time in rooms with dimmed light. I do not want to live that way on my sailboat. I love the ligh! I still pine on occaision for an aft cabin, but that can wait for my retirement boat - a pilothouse 3 cabin. 

Steve
Trekka / CSY33


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Giu,

That is one beautiful boat! You and the Mrs. have impeccable taste! It looks so airy, inviting and clean! I especially like your storage! Excellent use of space!

I hate going into boats that are dark and cave-like. Actually, we looked at a lot of boats last year at Strictly Sail. The one we liked best was the Hanse- clean lines, layout of rigging, the garage-door type transom on the 46'er, and yes, the interior. I loved the fact the interior was airy, light, and did not look like a boat. No offense to you guys who love the "traditional" boat interiors, but it is just not my taste. The Hunters and even the Bene's had horrible interiors- it's time to update. It's like your house- while avocado appliances were the thing in the 70s, would you put them in your kitchen (with the flowered wall paper) now? I've already modified my 1981 Wu-Wei, and plan on replacing the rails with Plas-Teak (I've had it with having to re-finish them every year), building a nicer galley with Corian countertops, and remodeling the head. But, then again, it is my own taste, and other people think it looks great the way it is. (BTW- I lived in Italy and actually like the European look!)

Chris


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

Trekka, I understand that when spending your day working in dim light, you would wish to have a bright interior in your sailboat, but consider the reverse; we live aboard and cruise fulltime. Our days are spent in the cockpit, sun, outside, swimming, snorkeling,etc... We enjoy the cool dark cave of our interior. This may be a choice where personal taste is affected by your activities. Will you soon be making a break from that dim work? 'take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

WuWei said:


> Giu,
> 
> That is one beautiful boat! You and the Mrs. have impeccable taste! It looks so airy, inviting and clean! I especially like your storage! Excellent use of space!
> 
> ...


No offence taken on my part anyway. It's not so much that I like the "traditional" interior if you mean by that half a Burmese forest chopped up and showhorned into a hole in the water. I like a bit of timber but prefer it to be offset with plenty of white surfaces. So, most of our joinery is timber but the coachroof is lined with white formica/ply. Good compromise. Bit of warmth but still quite light and airy. If I was building our boat from scratch I'd have used a little less timber. 
Not convinced about your idea of using "Plas Teak" which I presume is plastic made to look almost totally unlike real timber. I like real timber, I like white painted or laminate surfaces but I have to say that I loath plastic wood or plastic stone lookalikes in much the same way I don't like silicon tits. 
If I was building a boat she would have an interior not dissimilar to Guilietta in feel but I'd have a different layout more suited to a couple rather than a family and with different fabrics.
Lets see, forward cabin double with space to sleep with heads (I don't mean toilet) forward and plenty of stowage. Saloon, squared U-dinette, prefer table to be fixed in place. Long length suitable for sea berth, settee sea berth opposite. Bucket loads of storage and book shelves. Galley, U or L, Chart Table that is more a desk than anything else but is still functional, Aft quarter cabin, aft heads. Enough timber to give a warm feel to the cabin without being too oppressive, white formica everywhere in the head with a decent sized space for showering. Most galley surfaces formica. Upholstery canvas. That's the bare bones. From there once I've thrown in a few batik scatter cushions, lots of books, diesel or kero heater and a rug on the floor all is homey and comfy but still light and airy. A place for everything and everything in it's place. The cushions and the rug get thrown into the forward cabin when passage making. Wombat bliss.

Oh.

Then it gets cold.

and I start thinking pilot house and it all turns to crap.

No wonder I'm schizophrenic.

By the by, Ms W and I spent the weekend on board and the one thing that keeps cropping up is that we are more and more convinced that aft cockpit is the way to go. Whenever we look at centre cockpits under , say, 45', the proportions of the things simple don't work or the aft cabin is so small as to be virtually unusable. (Boats such as the Nauticats and similar small motor sailors are not included in that assessment.)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

TD,
What about the Nantuckets? I thought those looked pretty well proportioned below, but that was just from the plans.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Bardo said:


> TD,
> What about the Nantuckets? I thought those looked pretty well proportioned below, but that was just from the plans.


Hmmm....there are a few different boats called Nantuckets. The Australian Peter Cole designed a 33-34' CC that has an absolutely cavernous interior for a 33'er but I don't take to the exterior proportions of the thing. (PC's East Coast 31 and Cole 43 are wonderful boats btw). One for sale on Yacht World as a Nantucket 34. Too top heavy for my liking.

There is a HaiSing (sp?) Nantucket 38 on Yacht World that looks OK from the pics but has that overly teaked interior that can be a tad oppressive and a lot of work.

Then there is a Nantucket 31-32 sloop, that I don't know at all. Looks OK although I've never been a great fan of clipper bows on small boats. Personal preference only.

I guess you could say the Nauticat is also a bit top heavy but somehow the proportions seem to work. This is an old one but it works for me albeit a tidge overdone in the brightwork department. Nice pilot house although there is still plenty of deck space for getting out in the fresh air. Layout not totally convincing.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...lim=broker&&hosturl=foxsyachts&ywo=foxsyachts


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Trekka, your boat looks like the perfect NorthWest sailboat. How is it for pointing into the wind?


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## Trekka (Jul 16, 2006)

CaptainForce said:


> but consider the reverse; we live aboard and cruise fulltime. Our days are spent in the cockpit, sun, outside, swimming, snorkeling,etc... We enjoy the cool dark cave of our interior.


 That is really interesting. I had not considered that. Surely our environments shape our preferences. I am here in the mid atlantic, but were I in a location that was always warm and often hot I might feel very differently.

I do have to shade those big bright ports during the peak summer days as it can become like a greenhouse inside. But it's only now and then for a couple months. If I make it down south I'll find out how that affects my boat's habitability. 

Still, I do favor light. My previous boat had tinted thermal film, reflective yet transparent, on the inside of the main cabin ports which kept it cooler in summer and warmer in winter. I will probably do something similar with this boat as my refurbishing continues.

Steve


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Trekka said:


> That is really interesting. I had not considered that. Surely our environments shape our preferences. I am here in the mid atlantic, but were I in a location that was always warm and often hot I might feel very differently.
> 
> I do have to shade those big bright ports during the peak summer days as it can become like a greenhouse inside. But it's only now and then for a couple months. If I make it down south I'll find out how that affects my boat's habitability.
> 
> ...


Too true. Living in Sydney where we have a summer that verges on tropical and a winter where it rarely gets below 10 degrees celcius you'd have say we have a mild climate overall. Nonetheless in winter, when the winds tend to be fickle to non existent with the occasional howler , the idea of being able to climb on board Friday evening mid winter and motor up the harbour to a nice secluded anchorage in a nice warm pilot house does have appeal.

While I want to cruise north , I also love Tasmania where it's quite cold in winter and the PH would be good down there as well.

The negative of course is that a 40' pilot house is not the perfect boat for a summer afternoon's sail but then again that is a negative for any genuine live aboard boat.

To be honest, if I didn't want to go cruising I'd probably get a stinker to live on with a Laser hanging off the stern and a windsurfer strapped to the deck.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

My parents had a 52' pilot-house yawl in the Whitsundays for many a year.

When we went out we would rarely use the PH - we used the cockpit under sail and then spent most of our time on deck chairs or cushions under the awning spread over the boom (the dinghy normally stowed there being in the water) using the skylight as a table for lunch and drinks.

True, it wasn't the perfect boat for a summer afternoon's sail, but in the tropics it's the shelter from the sun that seems to matter most... but Tasmania is a different scenario entirely!


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## Trekka (Jul 16, 2006)

rsn48 said:


> Trekka, your boat looks like the perfect NorthWest sailboat. How is it for pointing into the wind?


So far I think pretty good. I've only had it a couple of years and most of that time spent refurbishing. (It's 28 years old and was an estate sale. Lots of stuff to do. But it did come with new sails!) Other than the delivery I've only done day sails so far. However, considering I previously was a fan of shoal draft twin keelers I am certainly pointing higher. 

I want to explore the PacNW someday, so one of the rationalizations I had for this boat was that, though still in the Chesapeake, I was buying the boat for my next location.









One thing I do miss is a quarter berth. With the galley on the aft portside of the cabin - excuse me, _salon_ - and a nav station and wet locker aft starboard, I have no quarter berth. Ah well, I usualy stashed stuff in there more often than I slept.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Hartley18 said:


> My parents had a 52' pilot-house yawl in the Whitsundays for many a year.
> 
> When we went out we would rarely use the PH - we used the cockpit under sail and then spent most of our time on deck chairs or cushions under the awning spread over the boom (the dinghy normally stowed there being in the water) using the skylight as a table for lunch and drinks.
> 
> True, it wasn't the perfect boat for a summer afternoon's sail, but in the tropics it's the shelter from the sun that seems to matter most... but Tasmania is a different scenario entirely!


Cameron,
While I love the idea of ocean sailing, indeed I love the reality of it, I just love being out on the water. The thought of being able to slip quietly down the harbour, sparrow fart, moving over a mirror calm, has enormous appeal. That said, being able to do it without having to wear thermals has even more appeal.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

tdw said:


> No offence taken on my part anyway. It's not so much that I like the "traditional" interior if you mean by that half a Burmese forest chopped up and showhorned into a hole in the water. I like a bit of timber but prefer it to be offset with plenty of white surfaces. So, most of our joinery is timber but the coachroof is lined with white formica/ply. Good compromise. Bit of warmth but still quite light and airy. If I was building our boat from scratch I'd have used a little less timber.
> Not convinced about your idea of using "Plas Teak" which I presume is plastic made to look almost totally unlike real timber. I like real timber, I like white painted or laminate surfaces but I have to say that I loath plastic wood or plastic stone lookalikes in much the same way I don't like silicon tits.
> If I was building a boat she would have an interior not dissimilar to Guilietta in feel but I'd have a different layout more suited to a couple rather than a family and with different fabrics.
> Lets see, forward cabin double with space to sleep with heads (I don't mean toilet) forward and plenty of stowage. Saloon, squared U-dinette, prefer table to be fixed in place. Long length suitable for sea berth, settee sea berth opposite. Bucket loads of storage and book shelves. Galley, U or L, Chart Table that is more a desk than anything else but is still functional, Aft quarter cabin, aft heads. Enough timber to give a warm feel to the cabin without being too oppressive, white formica everywhere in the head with a decent sized space for showering. Most galley surfaces formica. Upholstery canvas. That's the bare bones. From there once I've thrown in a few batik scatter cushions, lots of books, diesel or kero heater and a rug on the floor all is homey and comfy but still light and airy. A place for everything and everything in it's place. The cushions and the rug get thrown into the forward cabin when passage making. Wombat bliss.
> ...


Mr. Wombat,

I feel your pain! I want a dodger. Especially when it is cold and rainy. The way our boom and traveler sits prevents this. I am going to re-do the whole darn thing so I can have a dodger. This will be a un-fun project, I predict. I am still down with the Plas-Teak, though. This whole repolying brightwork has become too much un-fun. 

Your boat interior sounds nice and clean. (I just always thought your boat interior would be furry and cuddly!) I, too, used to like the center cockpits until I was inside some of these boats. Hate the layout (the aft cabins are tiny!) and wasted space. I'll stick with the aft.

On a funny note, I did see a 20-some foot Bayliner Buccanneer done up in animal prints- to include the headliner! The owner thought it was great! Every inch in that boat was covered in something outlandish....


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

WuWei, a dodger? 
Alex may have one for sale  as soon as he gets it off his boat. 

Dennis


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

denby said:


> WuWei, a dodger?
> Alex may have one for sale  as soon as he gets it off his boat.
> 
> Dennis


Bull, he's been telling me he is taking it off his boat for months ....


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

WuWei said:


> Mr. Wombat,
> 
> I feel your pain! I want a dodger. Especially when it is cold and rainy. The way our boom and traveler sits prevents this. I am going to re-do the whole darn thing so I can have a dodger. This will be a un-fun project, I predict. I am still down with the Plas-Teak, though. This whole repolying brightwork has become too much un-fun.
> 
> ...


I like the idea of bare bones being clean and minimal then the warm and cuddly is an add on. Raven is not my idea of the perfect interior by any means. For one I don't much like the cane insets in the locker doors but it's not bad. My first project in the New Year will be to reupholster the cushions in the main saloon and forward cabin. The cushions themselves are old and too soft plus the fabric is vile. I'll be redoing them in a plain sunbrella, probably a khaki tone. BTW, no way is Ravens interior as slick as Giulietta. I dd post some pics of her but can't find them now. It was in a similar thread to this one. The pics were taken before we owned her.

My ideal, is that when at sea we have minimal acceptable comfort with everything well tied down but at anchor plenty of scatter cushions and rugs so the place looks more like a gypsy caravan, albeit a post modern gypsy caravan. I do have to say that there is next to no chance I will ever own a new boat so any boat of mine will be a compromise to some extent.

Ref the dodger and mainsheet position that can be a right bugger. Ours is very much a compromise as it runs between the cockpit seats so dumping the car to leeward in a blow means limited travel. Obvious option is to extend it across the full width of the cockpit but alas that would make the cockpit lockers inaccessible. Forward of the dodger is a possibility but the expense is not inconsiderable and I do prefer end boom sheeting. Mounting on the bridge deck will interfere with the dodger and make it difficult to use the sheet from the helm.

Ref the Bayliner that sounds like a complete floating brothel. Animal prints indeed. One of my personal dislikes is carpet hull lining.

ps - pic of you boat ???? or alternatively what is she ?

Here's Raven. (The burgundy covers are also on the way out to be replaced by a pale grey sunbrella.)


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

She looks nice, TDW. The cane inserts may annoy you, but they reduce weight and allow plenty of ventilation. Some boat improvement books put them in the top ten projects the lightly skilled skipper can manage. You've got to varnish them to make them look smart, otherwise they eventually rot and collect dust.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Mr. Wombat! What a nice boat you have! I agree with bare bones, too. We have a 1981 30' US Yachts- we put more money into the boat than she is worth, but we are glad we did! The great thing about an older boat is that you can rip everything apart and redo it without feeling bad about it.

Here's a link to our website: http://www.diysailor.com. There are pictures of Wu-Wei (it's Tao for "Going with the Flow"...) in the photo gallery, and some of the work that we did on her. Originally, she came with burlap and carpet on the walls- yuck! I think ripping the moldy mess off the wall and replacing with marine vinyl was one of our very first projects. The interior still isn't the way I'd like it to be, but always looks better when I go aboard other 30' boats.

Ah, the dodger. You are lucky to find a compromise. Our boat's sister, Blue Tango, has the boom traveler over the companionway, and a beautiful dodger. Their boat neighbor took picts and precise measurements and mailed them to us from Canada. (We were humbled by this gesture- he put a lot of work into it.) So, we just have to buy a new traveler system- we might order one next week at Strictly Sail. Then, it becomes all about figuring out when to do this project- I call these type of projects, "Filling, drilling, and cursing."

Denby, Thanks for the offer, but it might not fit.  The hubby wants a custom one that will still accomodate the solar array.

Chris


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Thanks to you both for the kind words. 

V,
As you are well aware it's very hard to make a multi chined hull look as pretty as round bilge but once you get used to the 'crease' it's OK. We like to think of her as handsome rather than pretty but hey, she ours, she sails, she's paid for. You are right about the cane inserts of course and keeping them varnished also tends to keep them taut. I can live with them ,just not my first choice. On the other hand it must be said that I can leave clothes and books on board for months on end and they don't get mouldy or smelly, indeed we don't get any mould on board at all. As she is steel I am pretty anal about keeping the bilges dry. 

WW,
See above. The only part of Raven's hull that is lined with anything other than timber or formica is the quarter berth that has a piece of very tight pile commercial type carpet. Because we only use the quarter berth for storage removing the carpet and replacing with timber slats is pretty much low priority. I have to install bookshelves first, cos at the moment we don't have any at all and are using the saloon lockers for books. My other biggish project is to redo the electrical wiring and install some new reading lights that I've now had for nearly a year and they are still in their box. They are not hard to install but running the wiring is a bugger. Have to pull out half the headlining and that's the fiddly bit.

Let's face it, virtually every boat , no matter how flash, is a work in progress.

Anywho, (or should that be anywu ?) I'm off to check out Wu Wei's website.

Cheers 

TD


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

tdw said:


> On the other hand it must be said that I can leave clothes and books on board for months on end and they don't get mouldy or smelly, indeed we don't get any mould on board at all. As she is steel I am pretty anal about keeping the bilges dry.


Here's a shot getting hauled out last week: I know about chines! But I think mine are as nice a set as you can get.









I agree about the water issue: no place for it on a steel boat. I am going to a packless, dripless shaft seal and a "no valve" siphon break (running the hose out the top) for exactly these reasons: the aft bilge (which is very deep and dark) is the only place I get water (from the stuffing box and the occasional spritz out the top of the loop) and I want it OUT.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Hey Val... what's that little, round red fender for?? That come off your MacGregor???

HEHE! Just kidding.

- CD


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Hey Val... what's that little, round red fender for?? That come off your MacGregor???
> 
> HEHE! Just kidding.
> 
> - CD


It's just a spare I use to mark sunken barbeques. I salvage them and turn them into cotter pins.

(Seriously, the fenders are a mish-mash of leftovers and foundlings. I am getting a set more appropriate at this year's boat show. Either the Polyform A-1 or A-2 range)


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

I'm surprised your marina dosen't use Travelifts . . . cranes give me the willies.


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## cockeyedbob (Dec 6, 2006)

Very nice as Bob has mentioned before, now Val, if you would be so kind, post a more detailed photo of the tabernacle ...


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> I'm surprised your marina dosen't use Travelifts . . . cranes give me the willies.


We sit on landfill reclaimed in the late '80s when the city sold the original club space from the 1890s. Consequently, there is a *real* restriction on haul-out space that doesn't impede fire lanes, etc. With the gradual creeping upwards of boat LOAs, we have to pack 'em in tightly, and there's no room for a Travelift slip, nor room enough to maneuver it.

The crane is a 175-tonner, so at just shy of 15 tonnes "half-load" (full diesel, empty water tanks), I'm not too upset. Besides, launch is *very* fast with a crane.










The upside of the tight location is water surrounding us on three sides, and an amazing view to the southwest of the lake, Toronto Island to the immediate south, and the city to the east. Being just outside of Toronto Harbour means we get out into the lake that much quicker.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Is the expense about the same as with a travel lift?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

tdw said:


> Thanks to you both for the kind words.
> 
> V,
> As you are well aware it's very hard to make a multi chined hull look as pretty as round bilge but once you get used to the 'crease' it's OK. We like to think of her as handsome rather than pretty but hey, she ours, she sails, she's paid for. You are right about the cane inserts of course and keeping them varnished also tends to keep them taut. I can live with them ,just not my first choice. On the other hand it must be said that I can leave clothes and books on board for months on end and they don't get mouldy or smelly, indeed we don't get any mould on board at all. As she is steel I am pretty anal about keeping the bilges dry.
> ...


Mr. Wombat,
What did you use for your floor? We were going to put down teak tongue-and-groove, but ended up putting down marine carpet for a quicker fix (I did make new bildge boards from the tongue and groove- they turned out nice, but what some work it was!) Headliner is no joke and not fun to mess with. Nor is wiring- I think we removed 50 pounds of old wiring when we rewired- lots of wires to nowhere..... Have you thought of using those LED light bars? Although we had previously replaced all the interior lights, the hubby bought some on eBay. He installed them underneath trim pieces in the cabin and head- wow, they are bright! They take practically no juice, either. I think he is putting one in engine compartment, since the light that is currently in there is not very good. For the other lights, he's going to install LED bulbs. The mast light eats the most energy, so one will be installed when the stick gets pulled for maintenance. But you know what? It's all worth it, and you know every nook, cranny, wire and hose on your boat. Even new boats come with gremlins!

Chris


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

cockeyedbob said:


> Very nice as Bob has mentioned before, now Val, if you would be so kind, post a more detailed photo of the tabernacle ...


My pleasure...but I don't have a very good picture. I've cropped down a shot taken at dusk and added some words, but you'll have to use your imagination.










The boat is able to self-dismast as follows:

1) There is a 1 inch SS "pivot pin" that goes through a passage in the mast and through either side of the tabernacle.

2) Attached to this pin are two "raising bolts". You can see the SS receiver for one bolt on the left side.

3) When the mast is to be lowered back over the pilothouse, all stays are slacked off. Halyards are tightened fore and aft.

4) The base clevis pin is removed.

5) The raising bolts are tightened with a large wrench. This physically raises the mast a few inches upward.

6) All stays are made free.

7) The halyards are carefully loosened to slowly lower the mast backwards. Obviously an A frame or similar support would be a big help here.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Bardo said:


> Is the expense about the same as with a travel lift?


I can't say for sure, because the expense is buried in our entire "winter storage fees". But a 25-tonne Travelift alone costs between $100,000 and $200,000 and requires insurance and a professionally trained operator, plus a special deep slip to be dug, plus the room in which to run it. For big, land-side yards, they are great. But the cranes are more common here, as many clubs are built on reclaimed parkland, and 200-400 boats have to fit in what is essentially a parking lot, because there is no designated "yard", so to speak.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

For whatever reason photo insert isn't working for me today. (yes , I do the photo bucket thing.) 

But...

I've just seen a thing called a Malo 39. Not dissimilar to a Hallberg Rassey but aft cockpit not centre. Was updated to a 40 in 2004. Where the hell i'm going to find the money to buy one I'm not sure but oh my Wombat does like the look of them. 

Anyone got a sawn off shotgun and a balaclava they don't need ?

Thing I like about them in particular is that they have the Hallberg Rassey type fixed windscreen with a fold down dodger attached and a removeable full cockpit cover. Beautifully finished interior, modern yet classic. 

6' draft, longish fin with skeg (Yea !!) hung rudder. huge tankage.

If possible I'd like that next boat to be kept under 40' so the size is right on the money. 

I'm sure Alex won't approve but you can't please everyone.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

WuWei said:


> Mr. Wombat,
> What did you use for your floor? We were going to put down teak tongue-and-groove, but ended up putting down marine carpet for a quicker fix (I did make new bildge boards from the tongue and groove- they turned out nice, but what some work it was!) Headliner is no joke and not fun to mess with. Nor is wiring- I think we removed 50 pounds of old wiring when we rewired- lots of wires to nowhere..... Have you thought of using those LED light bars? Although we had previously replaced all the interior lights, the hubby bought some on eBay. He installed them underneath trim pieces in the cabin and head- wow, they are bright! They take practically no juice, either. I think he is putting one in engine compartment, since the light that is currently in there is not very good. For the other lights, he's going to install LED bulbs. The mast light eats the most energy, so one will be installed when the stick gets pulled for maintenance. But you know what? It's all worth it, and you know every nook, cranny, wire and hose on your boat. Even new boats come with gremlins!
> 
> Chris


Chris,
I'm not a hundred percent sure what is on the floor as it was there when we bought her. It looks like teak and holly but its actually a veneered plywood. All the timber on board is Australian Native which sounds like a nice idea except that after going on twenty years it is extremely difficult to match up with new joinery.

Regarding the lighting, we have two lighting circuits. One runs incandescent and halogen for general lighting and reading, the other fluorescent. I intend replacing the fluorescent with LED but will retain the other as is except that they will al become halogen in due course. The new(er) warm white LEDs are quite pleasant particularly when used for indirect light.

At work we are now specifying LED strips for cove and pelmet lighting and I have to say they are very effective indeed. Hell of a lot less power consumption and heat when comapred with the older Xenon lamps we used to specify. Given that LED technology is still relatively new to the scene I suspect that we are in for a major revolution in lighting over the next few years. We have an LED downlight that is about half as effective as ELV halogen downlight of 50w. At the rate of developement you'd have to guess that once LEDs can give the same lux levels as halogen it will be all over red rover. Throw distance is also still an issue with LED but even that improves all the time.

When the lamps blow in our nav lights we will replace them with LED I'm sure.

Cheers for now. I'm off to the boat for the weekend.

TD


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

tdw said:


> Chris,
> I'm not a hundred percent sure what is on the floor as it was there when we bought her. It looks like teak and holly but its actually a veneered plywood. All the timber on board is Australian Native which sounds like a nice idea except that after going on twenty years it is extremely difficult to match up with new joinery.
> 
> Regarding the lighting, we have two lighting circuits. One runs incandescent and halogen for general lighting and reading, the other fluorescent. I intend replacing the fluorescent with LED but will retain the other as is except that they will al become halogen in due course. The new(er) warm white LEDs are quite pleasant particularly when used for indirect light.
> ...


Mr. Wombat,

Glad to hear you have discovered the world of LED lights! If you tried to access our website, it appears DIYSailor.com with hit pretty bad by a hacker. The hubby is cursing right now and trying to restore it (they hit our other websites, too, and did some serious damage.) Have a great sail this weekend- I'm stuck at home with the FLU (grrr...), but it turned out to be a crappy sailing weekend down here, anyways!

Chris


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

WuWei said:


> Mr. Wombat,
> 
> Glad to hear you have discovered the world of LED lights! If you tried to access our website, it appears DIYSailor.com with hit pretty bad by a hacker. The hubby is cursing right now and trying to restore it (they hit our other websites, too, and did some serious damage.) Have a great sail this weekend- I'm stuck at home with the FLU (grrr...), but it turned out to be a crappy sailing weekend down here, anyways!
> 
> Chris


Yeah I'm, coming around to LED. I always thought it had potential but what I call "light comfort" sucked. At least it has developed to the point where we can give those rotten fluorescent things the flick. Those I hate with a passion especially the ones with inbuilt control gear and ignitor. For now though I'll still use halogen for reading and general light, oil for ambience, LED for working.

I wondered why I was having so much trouble accessing your site. I'll try again in a day or so.

Hope the flu has improved. We didn't get to do much sailing but still spent the weekend on board. My liver took a big hit but it was fun nonetheless.

I'm attaching an image file that shows our cabin floor. As I said, it's a bit like teak and holly but it's something else that's a bit similar. Holly is much darker from memory.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Mr. Wombat,

That is a very nice, cozy boat indeed! Thanks for posting the pict! I hope you are feeling better! My flu is getting better, but strangely, all of the girls on my relay team ended up with a stomach malady on Friday night/Saturday morning. No one can quite figure it out. 

We did make it to the St. Pete Strictly Sail on Sunday and I was very surprised by the boat interiors this year on the Island Packets. Ohhh, so pretty! These boats were not even in the 2008 catalog. Excellent use of space, too. Another contender that surprised me was Hunter- the 49 and 46ers had beautiful interiors and excellent use of space. I should have brought my camera. Ironically, the salesman for Hunter was from Massey Yacht Sales- he was our spectator and had given us a thumbs up when we rolled and tipped Wu-Wei's hull with AwlGrip at Salt Creek marina. I wonder if I can barter my painting skills for a reduced price on the 49... 

Funny thing about boat shows- you feel inspired to go home and work on the boat!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

WuWei said:


> Mr. Wombat,
> 
> That is a very nice, cozy boat indeed! Thanks for posting the pict! I hope you are feeling better! My flu is getting better, but strangely, all of the girls on my relay team ended up with a stomach malady on Friday night/Saturday morning. No one can quite figure it out.
> 
> ...


Obviously I havn't seen either the new Hunters or Island Packets but I did go on an IP49 last year and it was mightily impressive. Not my cup of tea I must admit but impressive nonetheless. I know nothing of Hunters although I didn't much like the only one I've ever been on. Wasn't helped by an idiot salesman who only wanted to show Ms Wombat the fan forced drying rack in the galley. Bad move. She couldn't get off the thing fast enough. The IP fella, on the other hand, spent quite a lot of time showing her the rig and deck layout. She still has a soft spot for those things. Cools off a bit when I ask her how she'd feel alone at sea on one after she's pushed me overboard. Even for 49' that is a big boat.  Not overly fussed with colour of the hull.

Thanks for your kind words.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

The Malos are a good choice. Good luck with that lottery win!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Valiente said:


> The Malos are a good choice. Good luck with that lottery win!


They are one beautiful bit of kit. There's a 39'er for sale in Oz at the moment. USD400.000.00. I reckon if I had the money sitting around I'd buy the thing. While I do dither twixt pilot house v no pilot house for me that Malo is damn near perfect and at 39' its about the perfect size.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

tdw said:


> Obviously I havn't seen either the new Hunters or Island Packets but I did go on an IP49 last year and it was mightily impressive. Not my cup of tea I must admit but impressive nonetheless. I know nothing of Hunters although I didn't much like the only one I've ever been on. Wasn't helped by an idiot salesman who only wanted to show Ms Wombat the fan forced drying rack in the galley. Bad move. She couldn't get off the thing fast enough. The IP fella, on the other hand, spent quite a lot of time showing her the rig and deck layout. She still has a soft spot for those things. Cools off a bit when I ask her how she'd feel alone at sea on one after she's pushed me overboard. Even for 49' that is a big boat.  Not overly fussed with colour of the hull.
> 
> Thanks for your kind words.


Mr. Wombat,

I am in total agreement about the IPs. Sturdy boats, and the color does not bother me a bit- it is much more forgiving showing dirt. The hubby liked the headroom (he is 6'3") and did not hit his head once! LOTS of storage and excellent craftsmanship. I liked the deck layout and the rigging is easy to handle. The only sad part was the price- egads. Must win lottery... The closest I will get to an IP is dumpster diving at the IP factory in Largo! (We keep joking about doing it. I wonder if they lock their dumpsters...) Their salesmen were exceptionally friendly, and although it was obvious by our appearance that we could not afford one, they gave us brochures to admire and put under our pillows (in the event there is a "Boat Fairy.") I did purchase a lottery ticket during lunch.  I won $4.50 last week.

Meanwhile, we will continue to count our blessings and spent quality time on our little Wu-Wei. 

Chris


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

speaking of classics, anyone with experience/knowledge of the bruckman 42 cruiser - not the weekender. Beautiful boat that we are looking into although no used ones are on the market. Thanks, David


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

davidmsw2 said:


> speaking of classics, anyone with experience/knowledge of the bruckman 42 cruiser - not the weekender. Beautiful boat that we are looking into although no used ones are on the market. Thanks, David


If you have not already done so, consider making this request in the Buying Boat Forum. You will get more responses.

- CD


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