# Company Integrity and Longevity



## serenity4u2 (Aug 1, 2008)

After much readin on the threads about buying what type of boat, I have an issue worthy of disscussion... The Title of this Thread Speaks for Itself... Lets put aside what boat is a better boat for crossing the Atlantic Ocean or in my case the Pacific Ocean... I already Know that a Alberg / Cape Dory etc is considered a better off shore boat then a Catalina, Hunter, Bene, IP, etc... So it is about the sailors needs, would you agree? Most sailors never cross a ocean... Coastal cruising and island hopping is not ocean crossing... 

First, lets agree (pls disagree if you must) that most boaters never cross the ocean, rather they coastal and island hop... People like me may look for that aspiring couple who got cold feet after venturing off shore and decided they did not need that expensive off shore boat.. I will gladly take it off thier hands for half what they paid.. LOL... Sorry for anothers crushed dream. 

Now, back to the title of this thread.... Can some one give me the number of Alberg, Cal, Cape Dory, etc... customer service number??? Can you tell me how quick they are to help you with a mechanical problem? or say send you a part at company cost??? I know your still looking for the number lol.... 

Is this a reason why some of us perspective boat buyers look to Hunter, Catalina, bene's, IP's.... We want to know that the company has been around as long as thier boats... They will help you with tech issues and even fix the problem at thier expense versus suffer a bad reputatation... 

I know that when I have called precision boats (Gemini) I always get a helpful person - most of the times the owner... WOW... I even called Catalina's number and got the founder or at least owner (think its one in the same)- WOW... Despite what some may think about Hunters.. My family owns one and has had similar experience.. I do not like nor wantr a Hunter- just look at how the company treats the owner after he/she has/ (is stuck) with the boat... 

So back to my thread title..... Should a person look closely at the company and its longevity when they buy a boat?????

PS... My home is for sale... The builer lives three blocks from me... A big selling point.. Not that I ever call him.. Just nice to know the builder lives amongst the people he sells too- thats all... Thanks for Reading...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Serenity4u2-

The builder of the Gemini catamaran is Performance Cruising, Inc., not Precision Boats. The company and its people were both big reasons in my purchasing a boat from them.


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## serenity4u2 (Aug 1, 2008)

Thanks SD, I was not marketing the Gemini... Read the thread and I think you are intelligent enough to get the jist of what I am stating...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Serenity-

That's kind of why I said: *"The company and its people were both big reasons in my purchasing a boat from them."

*


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

I couldn't agree more. A good analogy is those Stradivarius violins. Worthless ever since Antonio kicked-off back in 1737 -- no customer service!!


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## serenity4u2 (Aug 1, 2008)

*Thanks SD*

Thank You SD, I extend my gratitude to you for addressing this thread... I guess you did answer the thread in regards to your boat purchase.. Congrats by the way.. That looks like a fun boat to sail... Pls go to the live aboard forum and answer me regarding your post about peter- pk...something.. The add on builder for Gemini... I would appreciate your reply SD.... I am between buying a new Gemini and perhaps a used one here in WA state and then upgrading it... AS far as the customer service question and company longevity one- well, you and I have no concerns at the present... That was addressed at the people who frown on production makers... I think they know what I am saying an will acknowledge the fact that the big three have an advantage on support. Thanks again SD...


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

serenity4u2 said:


> So back to my thread title..... Should a person look closely at the company and its longevity when they buy a boat?????


More seriously, yes, I think that's a very important consideration. We had great customer service at PSC for many, many years, before an interim owner took over and drove the company bankrupt -- nobody answered the phones anymore. Major   for we owners. Previously we could talk with the company president and even the boat designer when we had questions. Now a new owner of the company is building it back, which should help.

So company longevity would be an important -- but not the only -- consideration for our next boat purchase.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Horses for courses, no more no less.

For many years folks denigrated Hunter for building a beginner's boat and building it cheap. But, that allowed a lot of people to get into boating and boat ownership and I doubt they really cared about taking that first Hunter to Samoa. Of course when Thursday's Child lost her keel with the owner aboard, that didn't help their rep either. Racers are supposed to break things, but losing the keel generally is outside the range of gentlemanly breakage.

Freedom Yachts: Gone, aren't they? But you'll never have to replace the standing rigging on an unstayed carbon fiber mast.<G>

Then there's probably some reason beyond alliteration for the name "BendyToy", and a number of rudder tube failures haven't helped their image. Although, the innovation of using carbon fiber rudder tubes instead of stainless is a nice concept, balanced by some shoal draft models known to run aground on their keels before their rudders. Ooopsie? Or again, perhaps collateral damage and not a fault.

Reputations only matter when they are in context. Integrity may be imbued in the corporate structure--or change with a new CEO. How well the boats have a reputation for suiting the purpose you want one for, would count even more. (And "purpose" certainly will include meeting a price!)


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

As the owner of a Gemini I'd like to put in my two cents.

If a guy in his back yard built a one of a kind boat to a much higher standard than mine, and sold it for the same price I'd have bought it instead.

I bought my Gemini for bang for the buck, not customer service which I *should* never need in the first place.

Having said that, the Gemini user group on yahoo is the best resource for a Gemini owner, not Tony or Sue or Will (owner-designer, wife and son-in-law of the factory for the uninitiated). I've spent hours in conversation with Tony and Will - you couldn't ask for better service. They WILL retire someday, the people that own the boats will not.


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## serenity4u2 (Aug 1, 2008)

*Thanks All*

Thanks All, Thanks Chuckles.... Chuckles, I agree with you about the most bang for the buck... Yes, of course Tony and company will retire soon.. Hoping the company lives on and has great support service... Such suppoprt would NOT be my primary reason for choosing a Boat, rather it would be one factor I'd consider... I'd keep in mind that many Gemini owners may have talked too the company and perhaps worked out bugs.. Thats a plus to me. Hey Chuckles, pls read the forums about my concerns about the Gemini as a LA and cruiser... SD has mad some comments but has not clarified them. I am in the market for a new or used Gemini and want to hear from Gemini owners... Pls check both the live aboard and buying boat forums chuckles.. I am also willing to send you my phone number so we could talk about the Gemini. Thanks....


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## serenity4u2 (Aug 1, 2008)

Thanks Chuckles... I do not know how to post what you said as others do so I will cut and paste... This is what you said...

"If a guy in his back yard built a one of a kind boat to a much higher standard than mine, and sold it for the same price I'd have bought it instead."

Given the context of the prior post... let me ask you this.... If the guy had no track record would you be so quick to hand over 200K or more ? I know dumb question... I know you would not as niether would I or a person with half a brain... 

Goes back to my original thread...


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> Freedom Yachts: Gone, aren't they? But you'll never have to replace the standing rigging on an unstayed carbon fiber mast.<G>


Freedom still is in business. They haven't made a sailboat for a while, but they have the molds. At present, they're making powerboats under the brand Legacy, but the company Freedom Yachts is still plugging along.

Plus, the original factory manager and builder, Paul Dennis, still is in Rhode Island and he has a small yard that specializes in Freedoms. So, there actually is quite a bit of customer support still available to Freedom owners.

Just thought I'd pass along this tidbit for any Freedom owners, potentials, or wanna be's out there.


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## serenity4u2 (Aug 1, 2008)

*Thanks Dan*

Dan, Thats good news for Freedom owners... Still, whats thye number? How quick are they to assume some company liability? It is great that there is some former freedom boats employee in RI- you and I both know he may be able to give some advice but can not say bring the boat in and I'll take care of it.... I know a Catalina Owner who docks his/her boat at the Naval Base in Everett WA... Had problems and Catalina sent them the parts for free. The boat is 10 plus years old... By the way my dad owns a Hunter- similar stories... Some people we know own either bene's or jene's - same story... Look--- in ALL fairness there must be something to having a popular boat whose company is not broke or has went belly up... Thats just my humble oppinion... As someone who is about to make a 200K plus investment (investment used loosely)... Why risk on a broke company? Reality is my house might not sell and I am stuck with a 200k boat loan...

PS... My heart was set on a Gemini.... Just that I am on the west coast, I may look at the big three... Signiture Yatchs in seattle is offering HUGE savinghs on Hunters... Performance yatchs are doing like wise on Catalinas.. I am sure there are similar deals on Bene's.... Thata all Thanks Mike


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I suppose it might be nice to have factory support at hand but once a boat is out of warranty it is of little concern to me. More important is that the structure of the boat is accessible for service work and that the systems and hardware are of quality brands that remain available for replacement in the open market. I have only contacted a boat mfr. once in over 35 years of ownership...and that was just for a point of information since the internet is so handy. No big deal to me but I think it would be more important on some production boats where everything is buried under glass inserts of one sort or another and the boat is not made to be serviced easily.


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## serenity4u2 (Aug 1, 2008)

*Thanks Cam*

Thanks Cam, Good point.. I noticed you stated you only contacted a manufacturer one time in the past 35 years and no need now do to the net... my paraphrase... My question was the net and the manufacturer's available to you on the net over the past 35 years? Never mind I already the answer... I kind of knew this thread would erk some- especially those who put down production boats.... what were your words? Glassed over boats/ something like that, lol.... I still value your input Cam, the still remains- its m,y 200K plus I am gonna spend... So my original point still remains valid... Should a prudent person consider the company and its longevity before buying a boat.. I guess if your a proud owner of a cat,bene,hunter,.ip or some other company that is thriving in the market and has been around as long as thier oldest boats-- then there is a testament to a company. I sure would hate to be calling around some RI boat yartd looking for some old employee of the broke company of newporters for advice.... I can provide the name of a proud catalina owner ten years old plus docked at the navaql base in everett wa who called catalina and recieved a free part- guess its a good thing they did not have to call a broke company who went belly up years ago... Is belly up a good term for boat builders? LOL....

SOOOOOOOOO To my main question on this thread- before you soak 200K of your hard earned money on a boat- should you consider who you have to deal with years later? Yes, we all know the answer- Thats why the BIG THREE are the BIG THREE... I'm still trying to find the customer service number to Alberg... Think there hiding out with Newport somewhere in RI, LOL.... I know I have been offensive... The point of my original question would offend many who did not like the answer... IT IS WHAT IT IS..


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Note...I am not dissing production boats...I owned 2 Catalinas, 1 O'day, 1 Irwin before my Tayana. My points remain and I think you mis-understood most of them entirely. 

When glassed in pans and liners are used in a production boat then it makes getting to things and figuring out where things are quite a bit harder than on a boat with open access. THUS having a mfr. available to tell you where to look or drill or cut is a MORE important consideration in such a boat. 

If you are buying a NEW boat...you'll have a warranty but e've seen old, revered and resprcted brands go by the boards so I don't attach much worth to warranties. BUT the big three might be safer bets than other companies in this regard. 

MOST important to me is that the Ports & hatches used are still available 20 years later when the old ones leak....that the light fixtures built into those fiberglass liners are still available...that the engine used is still around and parts are available...NONE of this has anything to do with the boat manufacturer except that they CHOOSE what to use in the first place and it is my experience that those mfrs. that choose proprietary or customized parts are the most difficult to repair down the road. This is NOT limited to production boats alone as many older far east boats did the same. 

On the point of my contact...that is not what I meant. My contact was only made with the mfr. because the net made it convenient and easy to do for a simple question. I could easily have solved the question myself but the net was quicker since the bot was not close by at the moment the question arose. Bottom line...I have never actually NEEDED a mfr.'s help but have OFTEN needed their suppliers help! Raymarine, Harken, Selden, Hood, Yanmar, Raritan etc. are more important than Hunter or Tayana is my point. 

Hope that clarifies my opinions. And yes...I WOULD rather have a great sailing older orphan boat brand of some character personally than a big3 boat but I understand the appeal of the layouts and amenities for a reasonable price and that a great deal of enjoyment and fun comes with any boat.


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## serenity4u2 (Aug 1, 2008)

*Thanks Cam*

Thanks Cam, I appreciate your input... I'd rather have a Tayana 52' ketck- lol. I am not nor would want to be critical of any persons choice of an older out of production model... I certainly agree about quality and seeking such in a boat.. This forum is for boat buyers, which I am and one consideration I made was to look at the available boats and the company longevity. It is (for me anyway) a difficult decision to shell out what will probably be 200K for a boat. That while I still own my home.. (I know finance homes etc are a different thread).. I will be sailing the pugent sound this weekend and also attending the seattle summer boat show.. I just know that the big names will be there and they will make it real tempting... Heck, signature yatchs in seattle is offering ONE YEAR free GAS and Dockage for any Hunter purchase, lol... To me (and maybe its just personal to me) being able to rely on a company to9 take pride in its product is important... I'm old enough to remember when a hand shake was ALL good and wise enough to know that today a written contract is only as good as the the companies laywers... This is the reason I look at the comnpanies that are still arounbd verses those that some italian company bought and changed the name, etc... To me its a issue worth thinking about...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Fwiw, I own a 1980 Hunter 33'. It's rudder packing nut rusted away and broke at the shoulder. Hunter has No support for the item, nor suggestions of where to find a replacement, nor original specs to help facilitate finding a replacement. I found a Hunter Owner's forum and the problem is common, and off the shelf parts are not available. The solution is to have a replacement part custom machined.

Hunter is still in biz, but company longevity doesn't gaurantee that you can count on them for support for your model a ways down the road once it is out of production.

I feel that comments above regarding finding a boat that is easy to maintain (yourself) is good advice.

Unless one is buying a boat like they buy a car, ie. planning on selling it and replacing it with a new one every 5-7 years, one should look for "easy parts availability" as Cam suggests as being more valuable than Mfg. support.


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## JiffyLube (Jan 25, 2008)

I'll have with agree with Cam, and add to what he said.

Just because the big three are still in business does not make their boats better boats, and many people will agree that they are not on the top of the list of best boats, but as a company they know how to survive where others have failed. The boats that the big three make are more for the general public at large, which is were the money is at. If customer service is an important item years later, then staying with the big three is a viable way to go, but does not guaranty that your particular boat will still be supported.

With older, out of production boats (whether mass produced or not), if the boat was considered a keeper, then there will be support through the owners/users of that boat. There must be a users group for just about every boat made, and a person can get information through groups that cannot be had any other way.

Just like in any kind of business you will have companies that are great at making something, but just don't have what it takes to stay in business for the long run. You will also have companies that have what it takes to stay the course business wise, but are never really known for making the best product that they could. I hope I don't offend anyone, but while the big three makes good boats, they are not really considered great boats.

My boat is not considered a great boat, but it does has some of the desirable items that makes it very nice to me and others, and it has no formal warranty or customer service anymore because it's 27 years old. The warranty I do have is, the boat is still floating after all these years, so the company that built it must have done something right.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

I would think the longevity of the foundation regardless of Mfg would be the most important , if I had 200G's and the oppertunity to either aquire one of the big 4 production boats or a soundly built 30 yr old or older boat for a 3rd the price, I would go for the latter and a total refit, and be better off for it


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

poopdeckpappy said:


> I would think the longevity of the foundation regardless of Mfg would be the most important , *if I had 200G's and the oppertunity to either aquire one of the big 4 production boats or a soundly built 30 yr old or older boat for a 3rd the price, I would go for the latter and a total refit, and be better off for it*


Ding ding ding.

Just becuse a company has lasting power doesn't mean it's product is better than a company that went out of business. You could take a Westsail just about anywhere in the world. The company made some poor decisions and fizzled, but the boats are highly regarded cruisers. Pacific Seacraft was driven into the ground on cruise control, but our boats are world class. I get so much info from online PSC owners groups and associations that I will only call the company as a last resort (and I've only done that once). Sam L. Morse went under, they made a model that has taken it's crews around the world and back.

As someone else stated, just because a company is still around doesn't mean they will support your product forever, or at all. These companies that change the model line up every year have to make room for the new product, and if that means throwing out all the drawings for the late 90's line-up....well too bad. What's that, they've changed half the fittings on the 36' model between this year and last? Too bad. Hope that part you need is in the bottom of a shipping container on the back lot when the time comes that you need it (it won't be).

You could get a proven cruising design and refit it with extra kitty to spare for the price of a new/newer coastal boat.

Soooo...... to the origional question. If you've already invested this much time discussing if company longevity should be important to you, I'm willing to bet it's important to *you* (serenity4u2). Is it important to me? No. The vessel is going to be under your feet, not some business savy CEO that knows how to keep product moving.

I bought my boat because of the boats pedigree, not the company.

my .02, good luck with the boat hunt


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

*boats and parts*

Hello,

This is an interesting thread.

I supposed that if I was going to spend $200K, I would want a new or newer boat with factory support.

Since *my* boats are always going to be 20 years old or so, factory support is not a concern.

Besides, the things that typically (or should) break or wear out and not usually made by the boat builder. Things like winches, hatches, ports, engines, transmissions, shafts, pumps, lights, heads, etc. are all made by other companies.

My first boat was a Catalina 22. Yes, Catalina still makes the boat and most parts for it. But when I needed a winch rebuild kit I went to Anderson, not catalina. When I needed rudder pintles and gudgions (sp?) I bought them from Catalina Direct (separate company) not Catalina. Same thing when I needed to work on the keel winch (swing keel). I never even contacted the Catalina company.

My second boat was a Newport 28. Capital Yachts went out of business in the early 90's. But Lewmar, maker of the ports, still has screens for the inside of the opening ports. Universal (and others) have the engine spares I needed. I bought a rebuild kit for the Jabsco head (which was a piece of junk), Selden still makes the 100S furler and sold me parts very cheaply.

My current boat an O'day 35. O'day, like many other makes, was gone in the 90's (at the end, the same company build Oday, Pearson, and Cal). I have had no problems getting any parts I need. Steering gear from Edson, winch parts for Barient (who went out of business too, but an Australian place still makes the parts and was able to machine a NEW shaft for me when I lost one overboard), Facet lift pump, Jabsco / PAR fresh water pump, Jabsco Macerator, etc etc etc.

I guess that if you need a new rudder or keel, having factory support would be nice. Otherwise, I don't see it as an issue for boats older than 10 years.

Barry


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

If you want info regarding Gemini's I'd suggest you go to Gemini_Cats : Gemini Catamarans
and join. 
There are almost a thousand current and past owners with literally everything you want to know.
SD knows quiet a bit about quiet a bit, and although he's sat on my Gem and been to the factory where they are made he's never owned a Gemini.

There is a charter Gemini in your area, try it, but don't buy it.


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

This thread's getting a lot of play, but I'll add an additional thought only because of my perspective of just having purchased a new boat. Company longevity really was not a major factor for me as an abstract concept, but I guess it did play a role in one way. That is, the warranty definitely was something we thought about and was part of our buying calculus, and feeling confident that the company, and dealer (don't underestimate this component), would be around in 5 or 10 years did at least cross my mind.

That said, our buying decision was influenced by other factors that far exceeded the importance of how long Beneteau had been in business.

I think Cam and SapperWhite summed it up best. It's going to be the rare situation where you NEED the boat builder to help (outside the warranty context that is, and if you're buying a used boat the warranty is irrelevant). You are far more likely to need the manufacturer of the gear and systems to be there for you.

By the way, you understate the customer support available for Freedom owners. The company still is in business and has all the information, molds and such for the boats. Likewise, it's not just some random employee who's a dock rat and who might know something about the boat. The guy, Paul Dennis, built most of the sailboats boats that came out of that company, and he now owns his own yard that's been around for a while and he specializes in maintaining, servicing and rebuilding Freedoms. Just thought I'd throw that out there, lest any Freedom owners or lookers get the wrong impression.


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

Serenity-- By now you should have your answer. You have made it clear that ongoing factory support is important to you and it is your money. Spend in the best way you know how that makes you comfortable by all means. I did something similar in the spring of 1989 when I bought a new Pearson 27 sailboat. Pearson was one of the original pioneers of FRP boats and had an excellent dealer in Annapolis for local support. (Don't forget the importance of the dealer in this. They will be the ones performing any warranty work after all.) To my chagrine Pearson went belly up in the spring of 1991-- so much for the 5 year hull integrity warranty. But Pearson built good. solid, honest boats so I never had a problem with the hull anyway. As others have said, years later when I had a problem with the engine, Westerbeke took care of it-- not under warranty of course but they were and are still around for support. When I needed to replace some blocks at the base of the mast, I called Garhauer, the original manufacturer, who specially made new ones for me at a really good price. i needed new gaskets for the ports and called Beckson to order them-- still in business and great to deal with.

So when i wanted a larger boat, I bought a 1988 Pearson 33 in the fall of 1993. Why? Because I trusted the Pearson build quality, and I knew so many of the parts I would need for upgrades are still available, often from the original manufacturer if i so choose. One very small example-- my boat has a Tasco propane stove and oven. the previous owner had lost one of the knobs and never bothered to replace it. I googled Tasco, still in business-- called them and got a new knob. Postage cost more than the knob, but they still had it after 15 years.

buying a boat is not like buying a car when it comes to warranties and service. But what you'll find is the satisfaction of taking care of such things yourself instead of waiting to catch Frank Butler on the phone on a good day.

Good luck and fair winds.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

chucklesR said:


> I bought my Gemini for bang for the buck, not customer service which I *should* never need in the first place.


That is sort of my attitude. It should be difficult to find stories about great customer service, because you shouldn't need it that often! If 50% of the buyers of a particular make talk about the great customer service, my first thought is "what's wrong with the manufacturer that so many customers have to contact them!?!"

On the other hand, stories about bad customer service should be practically impossible to find!

Best is if, after searching long and hard, you find a few stories about really great customer service, but mostly a lot of stories about people for whom the boat never really needed much in the way of customer service.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

serenity4u2 said:


> f the guy had no track record would you be so quick to hand over 200K or more ?


I wouldn't be "so quick," but if I had the boat surveyed, examined it closely, and was convinced that it was worth the $200k then, yes, I would be willing to hand it over.

I wouldn't see this as being significantly different from buying a 20 year old boat for which the manufacturer is now out of business, and lots of people do this every year.


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## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

To add my two cents: I made the decision 3 years ago to by my first new boat, and it was a Beneteau. As with all boats, there were an enormous number of factors, conscious and unconscious, that went into the decision. The fact that Beneteau was around and there were other owners around and that I thought both Beneteau and the dealer were likely to be there for a while was a factor, but not by any means the decisive one. My prior boat was an O'Day, and I found great support for the boat even though the manufacturer had gone out of business years ago, but the source of the support was the large number of owners out there who help each other (and the good fortune that the O'Day parts manager had bought the inventory and set up a business). I have been involved in corporate deals all of my professional life, and, sadly, in this day and age a long history and good reputation can vanish overnight in the next buy out or bankruptcy. On the other hand I have never seen a bad reputation cured overnight. Bottom line for me: it is one of many things, none of which ought to be considered alone.


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## MysticGringo (Oct 9, 2006)

I am personally a bit divided on this... but I think I think that I buy a boat based on the boat, and the warranty (if I ever could buy a new one), not on if Hunter (for example) calls me back. The boat should stand on its own merits, and not on the reachability of the company owners.

However, now that I have said that, my other side is saying that any company who care enough about what they produce that they make themselves available to the purchaser, must mean that they are doing a decent job.

The discussion on the big 3 or 4 is not for me. They obviously fill their market, and their purpose, while others do the same. The more people building boats, and innovating, the better for us, the users, right? Sure... maybe HR doesn't care what C&C did lately... but, in a few years, those C&C owners may be looking to buy something else, and will look at HR with a different eye, good or bad.

For me, I am buying a boat, made of parts, not a relationship with the manufacturer... unless its brand new, and then I would expect a different treatment based on warranty. I will likely never buy one of the newer C&Cs though, because of how they have handled certain situations in the recent past. That makes me not trust them, which means I won't trust their work.


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## serenity4u2 (Aug 1, 2008)

*Thanks for ALL the Great Input*

I want to thanks everyone for providing good input. The general concensus does seem to be buy an older boat and spend the money saved to upgrade. I do see the merit in taking that approach. Buying new is very tempting and made easier in some ways. As one person mentioned- having dealer support is a nice thing to have.

I appreciate sailorMitch's input about Pearson and his experience of buying a boat only to have the company go belly up. I sailed an old ensign 22 daysailor years ago on the LI Sound... Believe that boat was made by Pearson.. A very sturdy boat. I also chartered a pearson 30 footer out of SD, CA and fond it to be a very sturdy boat. I kind of put that pearson in the same category of a Catalina 30... Maybe thats not a good comparison.. Here is the one big problem... I am doing much reading on boat construction... What I am finding out is there is so much to a boat that is 'out of sight'.. Its the things I do not see that determines the quality of the boat... The best analogy I can afford is my own Home... I know the builder personally and He builds homes above Code.. The framing under the floors are built above code- that is obviously something a person buying a home does not notice...

Here are Two websites I have been giving extensive review... Regarding Boat Construction...

www.sailbuyersguild.com I'd dirct readers to the construction article...

Sailboat Technology, A Resource for Sailing Enthusiasts

For me, I am trying to compile a list of things to look for regarding quality. Things not generally seen on a boat walk through... Keel bolts, Hull to Deck joints would be an example... Making matters harder is after reading the artcle on boat construction... Many questions are raised... I am having difficulty knowing if boats that have stingers versus boats that are modular contructed are better built. Thanks for reading and also thanks for your input...


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I don't know diddly about boat building over 10 feet long.
I do know one thing for sure though:

You don't need keel bolts on a boat with no keel.


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

chucklesR said:


> I don't know diddly about boat building over 10 feet long.
> I do know one thing for sure though:
> 
> You don't need keel bolts on a boat with no keel.


...or an encapsulated keel


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## JiffyLube (Jan 25, 2008)

BarryL said:


> I guess that if you need a new rudder or keel, having factory support would be nice. Otherwise, I don't see it as an issue for boats older than 10 years.
> 
> Barry


If you needed a new rudder you could probably get one at Foss Foam. They have been making rudders for many different boats for over 35 years, and I bet they could make you a new one.


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

serenity4u2 said:


> I want to thanks everyone for providing good input. The general concensus does seem to be buy an older boat and spend the money saved to upgrade. I do see the merit in taking that approach. Buying new is very tempting and made easier in some ways. As one person mentioned- having dealer support is a nice thing to have.
> 
> I appreciate sailorMitch's input about Pearson and his experience of buying a boat only to have the company go belly up. I sailed an old ensign 22 daysailor years ago on the LI Sound... Believe that boat was made by Pearson.. A very sturdy boat. I also chartered a pearson 30 footer out of SD, CA and fond it to be a very sturdy boat. I kind of put that pearson in the same category of a Catalina 30... Maybe thats not a good comparison.. Here is the one big problem... I am doing much reading on boat construction... What I am finding out is there is so much to a boat that is 'out of sight'.. Its the things I do not see that determines the quality of the boat... The best analogy I can afford is my own Home... I know the builder personally and He builds homes above Code.. The framing under the floors are built above code- that is obviously something a person buying a home does not notice...
> 
> ...


 didn't Cam already cover the interior pan issue used on lots of production boats? Serenity that is an issue, but most builders will give you a tour of their factory to see how the boats are built for yourself.


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## johnshasteen (Aug 9, 2002)

I bought a Bristol because I love it and it's a good boat to go to sea in, not because Bristol Yachts was in business or not - if Paloma needs a bottom job, or the zincs replaced or through hulls have oxidized, she's going to a boat yard of good reputation - not to the factory.
I bought my TR6 new in '74, while Triumph was still in business, once it was out of warranty I never took it back to the dealer and that fact that Triumph has been out of business over 25 years is irrelevant.


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## serenity4u2 (Aug 1, 2008)

*Thanks SailorMitch*

Thanks SailorMitch, Cam did touch on pan liners in regards to boat quality.. What I did was used the search engine on this site for "pan liners"... Three threads came up.... One of great interest was about new technology verses old construction... A very detailed explanation regarding boat quality and strength was provided by a person named Jeff... I was very interested to learn that older baots are not necessarilly stronger then newer boats- more important that FG thicknness does not equate to Strength- perhaps just weight... If you read that thread you mihgt see why I might be confused- especially to hear that many of those older thick and heavy boats are not actually stronger to many of the newer light boat.. Looking at new boats.. I am thinking both IP and Tartan also use pan liners??? Not sure... I think the Big three or 4 do as well.... So I am thinking some boat makers who use pan liners do a better job making things accesable for inspection and repair then other boat makers....


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Serenity... I commend you for doing all the research you can. You will find that opinions even among experts vary quite a bit about what is BEST...but there is also quite a bit of agreement on what is not too good. In the end, you have to make up your own mind with at least the confidence that you have considered all the data. 
To that end...take a read on the new 37 page brochure available online for the Caliber 40LRC...which in my opinion is the cheapest current production boat in the 40 foot range that is well suited for blue water cruising. I know others will argue about that  but more importantly, the brochure goes into a great deal of detail about the design and construction of the boat and why certain choices were made. Whether you/others agree with their philosophy or not...I think you will find it an interesting read as you come to your own decisions about what to consider important. 
http://www.caliberyacht.com/Downloads/c40lrc_se_37_pages_online_viewing_version.pdf


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## serenity4u2 (Aug 1, 2008)

*thanks Cam*

Hey Cam, Thanks a bunch.... I like the Caliber 37... I agree they they market the boat for blue water and it looks great... Hope to see one this weekend at the seattle boat show.. Think its a east coast boat that is to small to make it here... It looks great... Just remember, what makes a boat a great blue water boat (esp at 37 feet) makes for a real CRAPPY dockside, weekender and short trips on the anchor... What your selling that tayana 52 for a person could buy a smaller production boat. It would come down to what the person will use the boat. I am finding that those production boats are boat good at the dock and also for getting underway for short trips.. I hope I step on toes here.... I see many Formosa and hudson ketches in the PNW that stay tied to the dock... I have no doubt that they have a boat that could go world cruising.... They just seem to be doingt it dockside...

After reading that thread on new construction, (search pan liners on this site)... Jeff convinced me that older is not actually better... I like caliber as well as tartan.... They are a VERY LOW volume production boat which means the number of used boats is low and the price is usually HIGH... Most Calibers I have found are in the carolinas... Nice price to ship to the PNW...

Before I bought a Caliber 37- I'd buy a ctaalina 40 or 42 for less money... A used Calier is not actually selling for a bunch Cam... There are more Catalina's which means better deals... Yes I know the Catalinia is not going to take me accross the Atlantic (neither would that Caliber)... Personally I think a person who had a Catalina 50 would be under way more thewn a person who owned a Tayana 50 or in your case a 52... Yes, the tayana is a better built boat to cross an ocean 9I never plan too)... The Catalina or Morgan 50 will be easier to leave dock and sail... I will be out this weekend sailing- a lousery hunter 420... Actually its a pretty nice boat to sail for the price.. I know two people on this thread who sail a formosa or husen who will be tied dockside... Only two of us will be sailing the 42 hunter... One two many unless you like me enjoy company of someone who smells nice.. To me, I'd rather buy a 40 foot house boat and leave it dockside... More room then any formosa 50 footer and much cheaper... Cam if you docked your boat hear in the PNW... I garantee I'd have no problem crewing for you becuase you'd need or atleast want crew... People I know with production boats never need crew (OK, I admit I crew for them, lol) Still they are gone with or with out me...

Boat buying is a hard choice... I get frustrated with the boat bashers... Especially when I see a bene or Hunter crossing an ocean race in first place.. Slowly, I am becoming of the mind set that old boat buyers buy for low cost and less for boat name/quality... Read the thread from Jeff about new construction vrs old construction, it is an eye opener...

Tomorrow at the seattle boat show there will be a compac 35 and a catalina 350.... I already know most on this website will state the compac is a better built boat... What boat will be better at dockside and at anchor? What boat will have a local club membership to hang out with and sail? In ten years both boats will sell for an equal price if they maintaioned them... Grant it, the Catalina will have more competition which means the seller better have a nicer boat... In the end does it matter that I have a bopat that Ron hitchkins 9sp0 signed his name too... He did not steerr the boat for me... Nor is he selling it for me... What will matter will be - will the next uys wife like the boats layout... If its a compac- seller beware... If its a Catalina we have a chance...

I'm still looking at a Gemini- will not be at the seattle boat show.... Just letting you know I am not biased to a brand... Yes, I'd love your Tayana and at 300K it is a steal.... Be honest Cam... Will that boat be going out much by a guy after work? or will it need a crew? It is a great boat and one that requires some help to use on a regular basis.. Cam is a sup[er sail;or and can probably sail his boat solo- most of us would need two people two help us and some of us would need two people before we could get our wife out there... Not owning a boat I only look at what I sail... I can share that single handling a 420 hunter is a breeze... GRRRR....Ihate this thread... Buying A boat is such a personal matter... The more the money the morew personal it gets (except for you rich folk)...

Cam, if I could afford your boat I'd be the prouod owner of a Tayana 52... I am 100K less for a Gemini.... I did look at all other makes... Yes, I actualy found nt much difference between makes after 10 years if they wer well maintained... Really.... I could buy a Hinkley for 125K it is a great boat for 35 years its age. Boy does boat buying get so personal...lol... Its All Good..


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Interior hull liners have their pros and cons. One major pro is that, properly done, they make a very stiff boat at a reasonable cost. One major con is that they seriously limit access to the interior hull surface and if you have a collision, you may not have access to the damaged area and may not be able to seal off the leak as effectively as a boat built using stringers and floors. 

A hull liner or pan liner will also limit your ability to customize the interior a bit more than a boat built using stringers and floors IMHO.


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## serenity4u2 (Aug 1, 2008)

*Yes SD*

SD, I have read about boat liners and understand there is strength with liners of the new boats... Access to wirring and tanks, etc is my concern... Its the trade off with buyijng new vrs buying old.. A new boat may be stronger hull wise (sorry to you old that think thick is stronger) but access is hindered with the pan liner...


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Serenity...I was not suggesting you buy a Caliber..only recommending that you read the brochure for a lot of good construction ideas that will be at odds with some other building philosophies. For a dockside live-aboard you are probably better off with a Gemini or a big production boat with a lot of beam and high freeboard. 
As for my boat...you are greatly mis-informed about sailing bluewater boats vs. production boats and needing crew...My wife and I had no problem island hopping and sailing up and down the east coast in her with zero help ever. In many ways she was easier to handle than any other boat I ve ever owned. To say that she is harder to handle than a 40 foot Catalina or such just flies in the face of reality...especially when the weather gets rough. I think you need to do more sailing and less reading!


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

If I had 400K here would be my boat...company went under years ago..and its rep tarnished buy interim owners.


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## serenity4u2 (Aug 1, 2008)

How funny Cam..... You do not mention about the pan liners on a caliber... They exist.. As far as a gemini- your right about the space... it is enormouse...


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## serenity4u2 (Aug 1, 2008)

Sorry they comps rep went under years ago.... That would suck if I was buying the boat. I know reputations only mean some things to some- to others it means what they get or can take... I wonder why reputations mean so much to those who avoid reps... Its OK... choices are yours.. did mamma teach that choices have consequenseces... I knbow she did.. Mama taought me that a warantee means something... I do understand that an old piece of crap that has 3 icnes of FG can mean something to a ignorant person.. Its bliss... ignorance that is.... Glad I'm on the west coast... we deal little with that garbage... Its a east coats thing.. RI put out alot of those early FG houses... Very few made it out west praise God.. East coast verse west coast doeas vary...


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Serenity.. 
1. Why would that be funny? I never said they did not have a pan liner. 
2. Now that I have established what I did not say...I suggest you actually read the link I provided you earlier and do so again now. 
http://www.caliberyacht.com/Downloads/c40lrc_se_37_pages_online_viewing_version.pdf

3. Once you have completed reading pages 14 and 15 please report back on what Caliber says about using fiberglass pan liners.

BTW....I never mentioned a Caliber 37 or suggested you look at one or suggested that I thought highly of it. Indeed it has not been built for some time now and never was part of the LRC series I linked you to. That is like comparing an apple to an orange.


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## serenity4u2 (Aug 1, 2008)

I already looked at the bcaliber 37.... great boat... Many for sale on the east coast... YES THEY HAVE PAN LINERS.... dammm hunters cats and besnnes... Hate those liners... Wish a tayana 52 was in my budget... I read that thread,,,, You search pan liners on this site and read what Jeff said.... Then you tell me what boat does not have a pan liner and what I should look for or RATHER under a pan liner... IP and Tartan have pan liners so does hunter... Darn those pan liners... I will be at the settle boat show tomoprrow and look at pan liners.. Why not just tell me waht tartan does with there pan lners that other boats like hunter do?? Thats a fair question is it not... it is... I will pay double for a tartan... sure would like to know whats under that liner I am paying for it.. you think... OH never mind, the marketing dept said its a blue water boat and it has a tinhy cockpit so I should just except that pan liner.. You think... I aready know tomorrow I will be introduced to cherry wood interior on a tartan... I wont ask about a pan liner because its a blue water boat and I'm not allowed.... You know PCI (Gemini) told me all about thier boat- pan liners an all... YOU GO READ THE THREAD ON POAN LINERS AND specifically what Jeff wrote regarding new construction.... Then talk to me about boat quality.... Real curious how a bene 456 sails cross the ocean and wins races since its just a bendy toy... 
Guess some pan liners work.... I will not defen boat construction... It is what it Is....


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

serenity4u2 said:


> ..... Mama taought me that a warantee means something... *I do understand that an old piece of crap that has 3 icnes of FG can mean something to a ignorant person*.. Its bliss... ignorance that is.... Glad I'm on the west coast... we deal little with that garbage... Its a east coats thing.. RI put out alot of those early FG houses... Very few made it out west praise God.. East coast verse west coast doeas vary...


My "old piece of crap" Pacific Seacraft was built with a pan liner.......

My "old piece of crap" Pacific Seacraft has 3 inches of fiberglass......

My "old piece of crap" Pacific Seacraft was built in Fullerton California in the same neighborhood as Westsail and Sam L. Morse (other early "FG houses")......

So, pedigreed cruisers are sometimes built with liners, *many* where built out west, and many are built thick (even the new ones). Sorry to blow holes all through that post. Hell, my poor little liner built boat has been solo circumnavigated. Oh my, now I'm totally confused .

Think old and thick is ignorant? Ever hear of a boat named Satori? It was a Wwestsail in "The Perfect Storm". After some debate between captain and crew she was ditched at sea, and they were "rescued". That poor ignorant old thick boat survived with no crew and was found beached in Maryland a week later. She was none the worse for wear and sails to this day..... Do that in a thin fast fin keeled speedy boat, pan or not.

Ignorance is bliss

Interesting read:
Satori


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Just because it has a pan liner doesn't necessarily make it a bad boat. Building boats using the "stick" method, rather than the "pan" method is generally a lot more expensive, especially on more recent boats, where the labor costs are a much higher.

BTW, Serenity, this is probably the paragraph that Cam was telling you to read, since you can't seem to find it on your own.



> Interior bulkheads and shelves are all solidly hand-laminated to the hull. *No large interior fiberglass liners are used.* Therefore, all surfaces to the hull are bonded directly. This results in a rock solid, strong, and seaworthy hull.


I'm a bit curious as to how the Calibers you looked at had pan liners???


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## Ashbel (Jun 19, 2007)

*Strength and Liners*

As a long time lurker I figured it was time to jump into the pool...My one cents worth on hull "strength". I have noticed in this and other threads the use (and miss-use) of the word stronger. Being stronger and having a higher strength to weight ratio is two different things. A grid lined hull my not be stronger than an equivalent non-lined hull. While the complete structure, (grid and hull) will have a higher strength to weight ratio, in fact the actual strength may less, as the design loads imparted on it may be lower. In example a grid constructed boat of a given length will in general weigh less than a equivalent non-grid boat. This may allow a lighter keel, smaller sailplan and rig, thus less actual loads imparted on the hull/grid structure. Semi-monocoque construction of this type has been the standard for airplanes for many decades. As design analysis, construction methods and materials have improved; these have allowed marine designers to eliminate unnecessary weight. This also eliminates unnecessary strength. Like every design compromise, nothing comes without a cost. While new hulls can carry the loads they were designed for, there is less ability to carry or absorb unknown loads. There also is limited ability to absorb damage as the entire structure has limited strength reserves. Its like an eggshell, very strong until cracked, then the whole shell collapses. There is nothing wrong with this method of construction; in fact for the majority of boat owners it is an advantage, as higher strength to weight equals, in general, higher performance. It is the unknown loads that may be a problem. For most cruisers, unknown loads come in the form of impact; wave, collision or grounding. In the end it comes down to how you plan on using your boat, if you plan on exploring and gunkholing an older heavier hull design might be advantageous as that excess weight in the form of a thicker hull gives strength for those unknown loads. Neither design method, in my opinion, is necessarily better, just that both have characteristics that are good for some but not for others. All depends on what you expect from your boat and how you plan on using it.

FWIW


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

So, I read the Caliber brochure. Interesting stuff. I actually found it surprising that they so openly dismiss newer construction materials and techniques. They openly state that they prefer heavier and thicker resins and layup to more modern. I think you can argue the pan v. non-pan situation quite forcefully in favor of non-pan (pans aren't all bad, but there's enough bad that you can make a good argument against them). But I don't think it is all that persuasive to disregard 40 years of advances in construction methods and materials. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that the Calibers are much heavier, and thus slower, than they need to be, and not any stronger for it. Just my ignorant opinion. 

We have friends who have an older Caliber 38 or 40 (can't remember which) by the way, and they love it, and it seems like a very nice boat. So, nothing against the brand, just find it odd that they would proudly declare they are stuck in the stone ages.


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

Serenity-- Here are several random thoughts for your search after reading your posts on the Live-Aboard forum, where you at least stated your planned uses of the boat : 70 percent dockside condo (my words not yours) , 30 percent Puget Sound and island hopping. That helps.

-- You are suffering from a very common problem for neophytes wanting to buy a boat. People tend to focua on one thing as the most important issue at the expense of everything else. " I want a keel-stepped mast." "I want a full keel." "I don't want a boat with a pan interior." "I want a heavy boat." "I want an epoxy hull." You get the idea. What this leads to is what I call "paralysis by analysis." You need to look at the boat in a much more holistic way. Yes, tough to do just starting out.

--You've seen the posts by JeffH. He is a "house" architect who has studied naval architecture and worked early on for a yacht designer. His mother was involved with importing boats years ago, so he has a wealth of experience and knowledge he shares freely on here. His advice is often sought out. He also has many biases--and we all do of course. No one person or book has the single best answer for which construction method or which set of materials make THE BEST boat. you have to form your own opinions by comparing all these varying sources, and then spending time on boats on the water.to find what is important to you.

--CAM has given you one of the best nuggets of advice-- spend less time reading and more time sailing. You won't find the best answer for you hunched over a keyboard.

-- When you go to a boatshow don't just listen to the broker drone on about the boat look in the bilge,behind panels, find the thru-hulls, the electric panel. Look at the workmanship in the hidden places--sloppy, neat, raw edges? How well is the hull-deck joint done? Backing plates on the deckgear? The list could go on.i had a broker at a show tell me once that I was being a pain by looking at stuff. i asked him what was he trying to hide?

-- My suggestion is to spend a modest $500 and enlist the consultation services of a fellow named Bob Perry. He is a world- reknowned figure in boat design and has designed such classic boats as the Tayana 37 (probably Cam's t-52 as well), the Baba 30, the Valiant 40, and too many others to name. He also writes monthly reviews of boats for Sailing Magazine. plus his new office is just north of Seattle. Here's a link to his website. Robert H Perry Yachts Designers Inc. Home Page Click on the Consultation button. For a very modest sum compared to what you are proposing to spend you can gat the thoughts of one of the leading designers of our day. And note he will not just steer you to one of his designs, but to the boat he thinks will suit your needs the best no matter who designed it.

--otherwise, good luck.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Good advice Mitch!

Daniel...yep...very old fashioned on hull layup at Caliber. I like that for cruising but it obviously makes the boat slower than a similar design cored hull. And many would prefer a faster boat....but then you'd be looking for a narrow fin and spade rudder too...kinda like a Beneteau . I think some of the other stuff they do is pretty innovative though like the lifelines, the tankage the systems organization etc. and they really have focused on the full time cruiser. The boat makes no sense for 90% of buyers probably...but is awful appealing for full timers.


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## jstroup (Sep 11, 2007)

Serenity,

As someone who just finished as two-year search for her first sailboat, I think the most important step is to understand how you are going to use the boat in the nearterm. After some soul-searching and reality-checking I was able to come up with a list of requirements that had nothing to do with construction methods. My list was: daysailing, marina-hopping, easy to single-hand, real head, good performance, and, or course, pretty. That helped me narrow down the list to something manageable at which point I could look at specifications, builder reputation, costs, etc. 

Good luck with your search, enjoy the process, don't rush it, and be honest with how you will use the boat.

judie (Morris M36)


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

HELLO!??? WHat is the matter with you people???

If you have 200+k, shouldn't you be thinking about the technical editors?? Eh??? Buy a jeaun or bene, you better speak french. Buy a Hunter, well... they will start talking about B&R rig and you will get all confused. Buy a multihull.... come on - everyone knows they pitchpole in a bathtub!

GO BUY A CATALINA 400. I heard they have the best looking, smartest, most intelligent, and most humble tech editor on the planet. The fact that he is a world renound griller should be the final plus. I cannot remember the guys name, but I think he graces Sailnet with his presence.

What was that guys name...

Oh! It's ME!!

HEHEHEHE!

- CD


Sorry... just trying to make you guys laugh. It is Friday.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I heard the Catalina 400 technical editor was a cross-dressing, bikini wearing, barbequing fool, who didn't know how to sail, so he married a sailor instead.  His moniker is* CRUISING*DAD not SAILINGdad... and I think that says a lot about him.    


Cruisingdad said:


> HELLO!??? WHat is the matter with you people???
> 
> If you have 200+k, shouldn't you be thinking about the technical editors?? Eh??? Buy a jeaun or bene, you better speak french. Buy a Hunter, well... they will start talking about B&R rig and you will get all confused. Buy a multihull.... come on - everyone knows they pitchpole in a bathtub!
> 
> ...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> I heard the Catalina 400 technical editor was a cross-dressing, bikini wearing, barbequing fool, who didn't know how to sail, so he married a sailor instead.  His moniker is* CRUISING*DAD not SAILINGdad... and I think that says a lot about him.


Just because you don't have a technical editor doesn't mean you should mess it up for everyone else.

Here, I will let you have Sway for TE.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

No thanks, you can keep him... we don't have the budget for his meds... 


Cruisingdad said:


> Just because you don't have a technical editor doesn't mean you should mess it up for everyone else.
> 
> Here, I will let you have Sway for TE.


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

jstroup said:


> Serenity,
> 
> As someone who just finished as two-year search for her first sailboat, I think the most important step is to understand how you are going to use the boat in the nearterm. After some soul-searching and reality-checking I was able to come up with a list of requirements that had nothing to do with construction methods. My list was: daysailing, marina-hopping, easy to single-hand, real head, good performance, and, or course, pretty. That helped me narrow down the list to something manageable at which point I could look at specifications, builder reputation, costs, etc.
> 
> ...


 Serenity. Listen to Judie. Sage advice and a Morris owner!!!! good taste in boats!!!


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## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

camaraderie said:


> Good advice Mitch!
> 
> Daniel...yep...very old fashioned on hull layup at Caliber. I like that for cruising but it obviously makes the boat slower than a similar design cored hull. And many would prefer a faster boat....but then you'd be looking for a narrow fin and spade rudder too...kinda like a Beneteau . I think some of the other stuff they do is pretty innovative though like the lifelines, the tankage the systems organization etc. and they really have focused on the full time cruiser. The boat makes no sense for 90% of buyers probably...but is awful appealing for full timers.


Oh, they surely seem like nice boats, and you've got to like a builder that picks a purpose and builds to it. The problem with lots of boats is that they try to be too much to too many, and so they do nothing particularly well. 
As I mentioned, from what I've seen the Calibers do seem like nice boats. I just thought it odd that a builder would boast about not accepting any advances in the past 40 years. There certainly are reasons for not coring a hull, or using epoxy (apparently, as I've learned over the past few days), but insisting on using layer after layer of mat, without regard to any other method of creating hull stiffness, struck me as odd. Another thing that raised an eybrow was having the tanks integral to the hull. Sounds good in theory, but no tank (NO TANK) lasts forever. Good luck dealing with those when the time comes. Now, with all that said, I'll admit that we gave a long hard look to the LRC 47. It didn't work for a few reasons, but we did like the boat.

And stop knocking BeneSlows, I mean BendyToys, I mean BeneFauxs.  I just got back from checking on her commissioning progress. Learned something good. There are no wiring or hose runs between the liner and the hull. I am going to change the through hull fittings over the winter, and the liner is going to be a little bit of a pain for that, but at least I shouldn't be cursing and screaming in the future when I need to run down a wiring or plumbing problem. The electrical wiring actually is labeled, there's an index and key in the owners' manual, and it's in conduits that should in theory make it much easier to deal with. Here's another fun fact that Beneteau claims, and I chased it down to make sure it wasn't BS -- did you know that more Beneteaus did the ARC last year than any other brand? That surprised me quite a bit, for the reasons that I'm sure everyone already is thinking as soon as they read this. Tomorrow, I meet the genset installer who starts that project in the morning.


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## JiffyLube (Jan 25, 2008)

serenity4u2 said:


> Mama taought me that a warantee means something...


Reputations back up warranties. A reputation for building something good doesn't need a written warranty, because it is the reputation a person is paying for that is the warranty.



serenity4u2 said:


> I do understand that an old piece of crap that has 3 icnes of FG can mean something to a ignorant person.. Its bliss... ignorance that is.... Glad I'm on the west coast... we deal little with that garbage... Its a east coats thing.. RI put out alot of those early FG houses... Very few made it out west praise God.. East coast verse west coast doeas vary...


I'm on the west coast, so what does that have to do with anything.


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## JiffyLube (Jan 25, 2008)

serenity4u2 said:


> Then you tell me what boat does not have a pan liner


My boat doesn not have a pan liner.



serenity4u2 said:


> Then talk to me about boat quality.... Real curious how a bene 456 sails cross the ocean and wins races since its just a bendy toy...


Almost any boat can sail around the world if outfitted right (old or new), and old boats were doing it before new boats. If a person wants to buy a new boat, then I say go for it. I happen to like my old boat, that's why I bought it.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

serenity4u2 said:


> Sorry they comps rep went under years ago.... That would suck if I was buying the boat. I know reputations only mean some things to some- to others it means what they get or can take... I wonder why reputations mean so much to those who avoid reps... Its OK... choices are yours.. did mamma teach that choices have consequenseces... I knbow she did.. Mama taought me that a warantee means something... I do understand that an old piece of crap that has 3 icnes of FG can mean something to a ignorant person.. Its bliss... ignorance that is.... Glad I'm on the west coast... we deal little with that garbage... Its a east coats thing.. RI put out alot of those early FG houses... Very few made it out west praise God.. East coast verse west coast doeas vary...


Mamma should have taught you how to use spell check or a least proof read; also, she should have mentioned something about bitting the hand of those who were trying to help you.



> I do understand that an old piece of crap that has 3 icnes of FG can mean something to a ignorant person.. Its bliss... ignorance that is.... Glad I'm on the west coast... we deal little with that garbage... Its a east coats thing.. RI put out alot of those early FG houses... Very few made it out west praise God.. East coast verse west coast doeas vary...


Could you explain the above, I'm only one of the several thousand ignorant west coasters that has a old piece of crap boat with a 3" FG hull


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## JiffyLube (Jan 25, 2008)

SailorMitch said:


> -- My suggestion is to spend a modest $500 and enlist the consultation services of a fellow named Bob Perry. He is a world- reknowned figure in boat design and has designed such classic boats as the Tayana 37 (probably Cam's t-52 as well), the Baba 30, the Valiant 40, and too many others to name.


Perry designed our boat too...Islander Freeport 36


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## JiffyLube (Jan 25, 2008)

danielgoldberg said:


> Learned something good. There are no wiring or hose runs between the liner and the hull. I am going to change the through hull fittings over the winter, and the liner is going to be a little bit of a pain for that, but at least I shouldn't be cursing and screaming in the future when I need to run down a wiring or plumbing problem. The electrical wiring actually is labeled, there's an index and key in the owners' manual, and it's in conduits that should in theory make it much easier to deal with.


Those are big pluses.


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## Sequitur (Feb 13, 2007)

danielgoldberg said:


> ... As I mentioned, from what I've seen the Calibers do seem like nice boats. I just thought it odd that a builder would boast about not accepting any advances in the past 40 years.... Now, with all that said, I'll admit that we gave a long hard look to the LRC 47. It didn't work for a few reasons, but we did like the boat.


I also looked closely at the Caliber 47 LRC a couple of years ago when I was deciding on a new boat. I thought it was much too heavy for its size, and it was too old tech for my liking. It didn't make my short list.



danielgoldberg said:


> ... I just got back from checking on her commissioning progress. Learned something good. There are no wiring or hose runs between the liner and the hull. I am going to change the through hull fittings over the winter, and the liner is going to be a little bit of a pain for that, but at least I shouldn't be cursing and screaming in the future when I need to run down a wiring or plumbing problem. The electrical wiring actually is labeled, there's an index and key in the owners' manual, and it's in conduits that should in theory make it much easier to deal with.


Dan, Among the things I really like about the systems in my new 49 is the simplicity of access to the through-hulls, which are all grouped together in the main bilge sump, except for the two serving the forward head, which are together and easily accessed in the forward blige sump. Also, the plumbing is colour-coded, labelled and easily accessible and my wiring is also very well labelled and it runs in conduits.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Pappy-
"boat with a 3" FG hull"
I suspect that what he means, is that an alleged three inches of solid glass doesn't mean much. The question is, how strong is it? How well was it laid up? And how much useless extra weight is it adding?

"More" doesn't mean "better", and if it really is three inches thick, the odds are whoever built it had no idea how to build it so they just used "more stuff".

It may still be a perfectly good boat, and if oytu are ever attacked by mad natives with sanding blocks, it may protect you longer than a 1/2" thick hull. But that's about all it means. If, indeed, you can actually measure 3" of solid FRP at any through-hull or test bore.


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## JiffyLube (Jan 25, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> It may still be a perfectly good boat, and if oytu are ever attacked by mad natives with sanding blocks, it may protect you longer than a 1/2" thick hull.


That was funny!


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Hellosailor, I haven't the foggiest clue how thick my hull is, nor is it high on my need to know or care list, but I'm quite sure it ain't 3"  it was a exaggeration, as I sure it was with serenity

Just something about his post didn't ring very well with me, may have been the lack of coffee on my part, but his post kinda sounded a tad bit insulting.


Maybe I took it wrong


And don't underestimate mad natives with sanding blocks


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## serenity4u2 (Aug 1, 2008)

*Thanks Sialor Mitch...*

Sorry for the slow reply.. I have been sailing up here in the great PNW and just returned home... I do appreciate ALL your feedback...

Your observation about 'paralasys by analasys" can be very true... There are many oppinions and also much markerting hype- not to mention so many new boat production models make some very good deals to move thier boats...

Your post to me about Cam.. ""--CAM has given you one of the best nuggets of advice-- spend less time reading and more time sailing. You won't find the best answer for you hunched over a keyboard."" I appreciate that advice and it is good advice... I do spend much time sailing- just on production boats.. I do much reading in an attempt to obtain as much info as possible...

Your point about not listening to the brokers at the boat show - rather check ALL the spaces not visable is good... I do check for placement and access of seacocks and also placement / access to systems... I do not have the knowledge base to know quality hull deck joints, keel / hull joints, backing strength of hardware... Plus I also find it hard to know what I am looking at when touring a boat at a show... Your advice about obtaing a consultant is good advice...

What you posted... "-- My suggestion is to spend a modest $500 and enlist the consultation services of a fellow named Bob Perry. He is a world- reknowned figure in boat design and has designed such classic boats as the Tayana 37 (probably Cam's t-52 as well), the Baba 30, the Valiant 40, and too many others to name. He also writes monthly reviews of boats for Sailing Magazine. plus his new office is just north of Seattle." THANKS for that Advice...

I will state that I did appreciate the IP... They did appear to be built solid. I did not observe the hull / deck joints etc... Very roomy for a mono hull- yet very pricey.. As you may recall, this will be a LA which is why I still lean towards a Gemini. Thanks for ALL your input... Very Helpfull to me...


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

Good post & good question.

Think on this: does a company gain longevity through good designs or good marketing? 

Look at Pearson. Went belly up in the early 1990's as did several "old" names in the cruiser/racer sailboat market. Why? Their designs were so good the used boats competed with the new boats and they were battling themselves.

Look at Hunter & Catalina (I owned a 2000 Catalina 34 Mk II I purchased new and it impressed me). They modify every model occasionally so the dealers can say: "You can purchase this used '07 Slapper 350 Mk VI . . . or look at the '09 Slapper 350 Mk VII with self trimming Cunningham and oven rotissary!" 

Not necessarily design changes that improve sailing or function but certainly enliven the market. 

The Pearson 35 ran 14 years with maybe two obvious options (dinette or not). Why buy a new one when you can get an almost identical two year old or even an identical six year old used one with 15 added accessories thrown in for 20 to 30% less? 

That's not bad design (just the opposite, in fact). That's good design but poor marketing.

Don't confuse longevity with quality. As long as the systems and components are of good quality and available it matters little that the manufacturer is still around. If you can get parts for the winch or engine who cares if the hull manufacturer is stil around? Fiberglass is easy provided the core & hull is sound. Once it's on the second owner it doesn't matter. 

A company that exhausted itself on hand-manufacture and intensive labor may have built the best possible boat but ran a short race and collapsed because they didn't charge enough!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I would disagree with why Pearson went belly-up. You may remember, Congress in their infinite wisdom (cough, cough) passed a luxury tax on all vehicles costing over $100,000, which seriously crippled ALL new boat sales in the 30+ foot range. At the same time, we were having huge increases in petroluem prices--which made the price of fiberglass resins skyrocket, which drove boat prices up further and margins down further again.

There was no way that marketing could compensate for the economic roller-coaster. Pretty much the same way that no boatmaker today could protect themself from the housing finance debacle, and what that's doing to disposable income today. 

It was a hard time for ALL the boat makers. A lot of top names went out of the market. Pearson, Oday, C&C, Sabre (the last two are new companies today, not the original ones)...Hunter was lucky, they were concentrating on "first time boat buyers" with REAL CHEAP BOATS compared to everyone else.

Heck, in a couple of years GM and Chrysler may join TWA, Eastern, PanAm...Scary times.


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## serenity4u2 (Aug 1, 2008)

*Thanks Delerious and Hellosailoir...*

Thanks to both of you and I appreciate your posts and info about Pearson and also how the congress made it hard for many boat builders to remain in the market- Congress and those beloved taxes...

I confused the Caliber with another boat... I reviewed the companies building process and see they make a very heavy and sturdy boat. I was able to see the things that make a quality boat... Especially the extra glassed stringers and how they join major parts of thier boat. It helped me to understand the different construction methods including the use of pan liners. I really like the fact that the 35LRC has a seperate area devoted to an Engineering space- engine and other components in a easy to access placement.. Sadly the price exceeds my 200K budget. Plus what makes them a sturdy well built boat for blue water cruising also makes them not my ideal for dockside/ bay and coastal sailing...

For a mono hull, I have been looking at an IP... Most likely will go used to stay in price range. After review of thier website factory tour, I am not sure if they use a pan liner... I did find them to be very heavy and solidly built boats.

It is an observation of mine (perhaps wrong)... It seems that I can purchase many larger Catalinas 10 years old for slightly less then a 15 - 20 year old Caliber and IP... A real desire to purchase new or realatively new draws me back to the gemeni.... I realize comparing mono's to a small multi is like comparing apples and oranges... Still, the boat will be a LA mostly dockside with short weekly sails (mostly in the PNW)...

I am Very appreciative for much great input. The info was and is very helpful.

Thank You Very Much...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Just forgotten...*

Island Packet is the best.


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

I will say this. After two years of being without a cabin sailboat (we have a 17 foot open daysailor for local lakes) I am looking exclusively at used sailboats and would not consider new. There is just too much out there that is nice and in many cases recently upgraded for 1/3 to 1/4 the price of new. We're focusing on Pearsons but have inspected Sabres, Freedoms (odd but well thought-out) and a CS 36 that is a beaut but large for our perceived needs (just the two of us and not getting any younger).

Fiberglass was a splendid discovery.

Oh - here's a PS on the companies that didn't pull out of the 80's. When you look at the businesses that failed the Luxury & dot.com collapse of the early 90's you can either take the opinion that they did not know their market OR that that did not gouge their customers enough before hand to be able to weather the bad market years of '91 and '92. 

Perhaps the companies that survived did so on the backs or prior customers and not so much market savvy? Likely a combination of adapting quickly and having suitable profit margins. Not pointing disparaging fingers, but look at the kind of labor (and hourly rates) a company like Catalina or Hunter uses vs. the Hinkely, Richardson and Pearson east coasters. You know what the cost of living is in Rhode Island?

(I'm a cost accountant and it is amazing what margins can do for a manufacturer).


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