# Loose leeward shrouds?



## Stearmandriver (Jan 30, 2011)

So, we were sailing close-hauled the other day and noticed that the leeward shrouds were slack - I mean flapping in the wind, loose piece of yarn kind of slack. Details:

Catalina 27, standard rig
Full main and 150 genoa
Approx 12 kts mostly steady wind
Heeled 18-20°, making a little over 5 knots.

We've been sailing this boat all summer and I can't believe I've never noticed this before. I guess this is the first time we've been close hauled on a long sail. Usually when we're close hauled we're in our inlet, doing a lot of tacking and spending the straight portions focused on sail trim. Guess I just never looked at the shrouds. This time, we were on the one tack long enough to look around.

So is this normal in these conditions, or is the rig too loose? I've read contradicting stuff online about whether you want a loose or tight rig. Where do most of you have your shroud tension?

And if we want to tighten this up, is it safe to just equally tighten each shroud turnbuckle, say one turn apiece to start, till things behave? That should keep things in balance, right?

Thanks...


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Driver:
That is not unusual. Just make sure the turnbuckles are still attached to the chainplates.
If your mast is in tune and the masthead is staying on centerline when you are hard on the wind you don't need more shroud tension. But if they are in fact "flapping" around then you may want to address how your mast is tuned. They are only going to go slack if the masthead is flalling off to leeward. This is not good and can result in giving you more weather helm.


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

They should not be slack. If your mast was tuned, you have to increase the tension on the leeward turnbuckles, then tack and make the same amount of tensioning to the other side. Tighter the better. Do not worry you can not tighteen them more than needed.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Bob offers great advise. Leeward shrouds will go slack under sail.

Tuning is a great term for testing shroud tension. Tap the starboard and port equivalent shrouds with a wrench. Like a tuning fork they have the same tone.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

bobperry said:


> Driver:
> That is not unusual. Just make sure the turnbuckles are still attached to the chainplates.
> If your mast is in tune and the *masthead is staying on centerline *when you are hard on the wind you don't need more shroud tension. *But if they are in fact "flapping" around then you may want to address how your mast is tuned. *They are only going to go slack if the masthead is flalling off to leeward. This is not good and can result in giving you more weather helm.


This.

If the tip is falling off, bad things can happen if it goes far enough. They will get soft, but not flapping like you say. They should _definitely not be bar-tight.

Hopefully they are equally flapping whether you're on port or stbd tack. If so, then take an equal turn on each turnbuckle and observe the result. Repeat until they only get soft, instead of flapping in the breeze.

Or just consult your rigger._


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I prefer to make sure the mast is centered, take a loose guage and have all my shrouds at about 15-20% breaking tension, along with having a person aloft, checking the center and ends are equal distance from the deck at the spreaders...if this is all equal, then I might on windier days have some looseness on the leeward shrouds....

Sounds like things are potentially a bit loose! there is also a really good tuning sticky at the top of one of the sections, or look up and see if a tuning guide exists for you boat, mast manufacture etc.

marty

here is linky for the adjuting your rig sticky
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/42542-adjusting-your-rig.html


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Try laying your cheek right up against the mast and looking up the entire length on both tacks. This is the easiest way to see if your mast is bending to leeward. I think you are getting some good advice here.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> Try laying your cheek right up against the mast and looking up the entire length on both tacks.


Oh, that cheek.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Barq:
Yeah, well do you need to be able to do this in the marina so,,,,the other check.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Bottom line here is...ya gotta learn how to tune your rig. You'll be surprised to learn how easy it is and you're going to feel good about it when you're done. And your boat's going to sail better, too.

Go to the Selden mast website and you'll find an excellent method for tuning a rig. 

The truth is, there are a lot of rigs out there that aren't tuned properly, cuz the owners don't know how to do it. It's an easy skill to learn and uses a minimum amount of tools. 

A Loos gauge is a nice but expensive way to go. If you do the Selden method, all you need is an inexpensive set of vernier calipers....digital is ideal.


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## KnottyGurl (Feb 8, 2011)

A rig tune tension gauge will tell you exactly what the shrouds are set at and which ones need to be tightened and or loosened. I use the digital one from Harken and you can adjust while underway


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

celenoglu said:


> They should not be slack. If your mast was tuned, you have to increase the tension on the leeward turnbuckles, then tack and make the same amount of tensioning to the other side. *Tighter the better. Do not worry you can not tighteen them more than needed.*


I may be misinterpreting what you mean. If so, I apologize, but you certainly can "tighten them more than needed". 
Tighter is not necessarily better. 
You can tighten them so much that you bend your boat and none of the doors open anymore. I did that once.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

knothead said:


> I may be misinterpreting what you mean. If so, I apologize, but you certainly can "tighten them more than needed".
> Tighter is not necessarily better.
> You can tighten them so much that you bend your boat and none of the doors open anymore. I did that once.


In the 80's C&C's used to develop a "smile" between the keel and the hull when the backstay was overly hardened.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

knothead said:


> ...Tighter is not necessarily better...


celenoglu's suggestion of unlimited tightening is potentially dangerous.

Some people have adjustable backstays to optimize things for light vs. heavy winds.

Also, many rigs with swept back spreaders have special rules that need to be followed for uppers vs. lowers. Sometimes the lowers are in opposition to the uppers, and can create reverse bend in the mast and other undesirable shapes if tightened too much. I don't think this applies to the C27's, but realize that other boat owners read these threads too.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

knothead said:


> ...
> 
> You can tighten them so much that you bend your boat and none of the doors open anymore. I did that once.


Well, that is very close to the situation I am in, except that the door (I only have one, to the head which is just f'ward of the main bulkhead) does not CLOSE properly any more. It used to fit perfectly.

What is going on? I figured it must have to do with the rig tension and I de-tensioned all shrouds (secured the mast with halyards). Nothing changed, door still not closing.

This is a keel-stepped Columbia 32, in case it makes a difference.

Advice, please?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Well, that is very close to the situation I am in, except that the door (I only have one, to the head which is just f'ward of the main bulkhead) does not CLOSE properly any more. It used to fit perfectly.
> 
> What is going on? I figured it must have to do with the rig tension and I de-tensioned all shrouds (secured the mast with halyards). Nothing changed, door still not closing.
> 
> ...


This while afloat? Hard to say, there are a number of factors but I suspect backstay/forestay tensions will have more effect on most boats than shroud tension as far as 'bending' goes.. also wooden doors tend to swell and shrink with humidity changes, hinges get bent or screws get loose... If the boat was improperly blocked on stands this may have caused something to shift too.. but generally that comes back once afloat again.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

Faster said:


> This while afloat? Hard to say, there are a number of factors but I suspect backstay/forestay tensions will have more effect on most boats than shroud tension as far as 'bending' goes.. also wooden doors tend to swell and shrink with humidity changes, hinges get bent or screws get loose... If the boat was improperly blocked on stands this may have caused something to shift too.. but generally that comes back once afloat again.


Yes, the boat is afloat, and has been for nearly two years (my schedule is to haul every other winter, and last year was an in-the-water-winter).

Nothing was changed on the forestay and aft stay in the last 4 years (when the mast was unstepped). As I said, I did change the tension on the shrouds (had to rebed chainplates and other stuff).

Unfortunately, I don't know when the thing with the door happened. I noticed that it does not close anymore a few months ago. Could be swelling of the door but I consider it unlikely, the sticky part is not uniformly around but mainly on one side (closer to the hinge).


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Over tensioning your rig can cause your mast to drive downwards compressing and deforming either your keel step or coach roof – both are expensive repairs. Over tensioning the head and backstay (or too much back stay tension for those of us who have adjusters) can wrap (hog) your hull. Think banana. We measure for this by stretching a line from pulpit to pushpit, with light tension on the rig/no additional backstay tension. Mark where it crosses the mast. Apply backstay pressure (or by adjusting both stays) until the line just moves below the mark. Mark your backstay setting/ measure wire tension with a loos gauge. Go any further on the tension and congratulations, you warped your boat.


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## KnottyGurl (Feb 8, 2011)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Well, that is very close to the situation I am in, except that the door (I only have one, to the head which is just f'ward of the main bulkhead) does not CLOSE properly any more. It used to fit perfectly.
> 
> What is going on? I figured it must have to do with the rig tension and I de-tensioned all shrouds (secured the mast with halyards). Nothing changed, door still not closing.
> 
> ...


To see if the coach roof has flatened, get a steel support pole and set next to mast in walk way place wood on the top of the post that makes contact with roof with plate, 
Snug pole to roof and 
SLOWLY add some pressure each 1/8 turn check door, if it stops sticking you have found your problem. PLEASE watch and count the turns, never more then 3 full turns as this will raise the roof half an inch so watch and check lots as you turn on the pressure.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> Well, that is very close to the situation I am in, except that the door (I only have one, to the head which is just f'ward of the main bulkhead) does not CLOSE properly any more. It used to fit perfectly.
> 
> What is going on? I figured it must have to do with the rig tension and I de-tensioned all shrouds (secured the mast with halyards). Nothing changed, door still not closing.
> 
> ...


Not sure with the structural design of the Col32; but, if the boat has a deck stepped mast AND a wooden compression post that is FIXED to the main bulkhead .... carefully check the butt end of the wooden compression post where it sits in the bilge. Many builders of this era simply drove a wooden wedge wedge under the compression post and covered the butt end and the wedge with fiberglass tabbing ... leaving the wedge and post vulnerable to rot. The post merely supported the bulkhead which supports the overhead .. and when the post butt rots the bulkhead no longer can support the deck mast step and the overhead changes shape & dimensions ... the result is the adjacent head, etc. passageways 'skew', etc. Check to see if the door lock closure 'line up' ... if the 'door handle/knob' no longer is in line with its 'lock plate' the bulkhead and/or compression post may have 'slipped down' ... because of rot in the base of the post.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

RichH said:


> Not sure with the structural design of the Col32; but, if the boat has a deck stepped mast....


Ehm, I thought that I said quite clearly that the mast is KEEL STEPPED. It rests on an aluminum support which, in turn, sits on the keel.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

KnottyGurl said:


> To see if the coach roof has flatened, get a steel support pole and set next to mast in walk way place wood on the top of the post that makes contact with roof with plate,
> Snug pole to roof and
> SLOWLY add some pressure each 1/8 turn check door, if it stops sticking you have found your problem. PLEASE watch and count the turns, never more then 3 full turns as this will raise the roof half an inch so watch and check lots as you turn on the pressure.


That's an interesting idea.

Would it apply if my mast is keel-stepped (as it is), or would one expect a lowered coach roof only with a deck-stepped mast?


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## KnottyGurl (Feb 8, 2011)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> That's an interesting idea.
> 
> Would it apply if my mast is keel-stepped (as it is), or would one expect a lowered coach roof only with a deck-stepped mast?


This will work with either keel stepped and deck stepped.
If you are on the deck at mast storage also could be leakage from mast boot leaking as well. This will help in working the roof to see if it has lowered. Place the post as close to mast as possible and slowly lift roof, door should straighten out if roof is the problem.
Also as Rich mentioned also check to see if the door lock slide still lines up. 
Are hinges solid and tight at backing of door, loose screws can cause this as well. 
Did you modify the main bulk head in any way, speakers installed into walls could cause some structure drop as well, but highly unlikely a level against it would reveal a slight warp in the wall.
Also wood rot along the bottom edge could allow for compression on the wall and a 1/16 would be enough movement to cause this issue as well.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

KnottyGurl said:


> This will work with either keel stepped and deck stepped.
> If you are on the deck at mast storage also could be leakage from mast boot leaking as well. This will help in working the roof to see if it has lowered. Place the post as close to mast as possible and slowly lift roof, door should straighten out if roof is the problem.
> Also as Rich mentioned also check to see if the door lock slide still lines up.
> Are hinges solid and tight at backing of door, loose screws can cause this as well.
> ...


No speakers or something added.

However, your last comment may be right to the mark: there is, in fact, some rot at the bottom edge of the main bulkhead (one of the reasons why I rebedded the chainplates).

Hmmmmm....


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## KnottyGurl (Feb 8, 2011)

I see a winter project in the making for you, if your on the hard for the winter then your good to go and by spring will have it repaired and ready for launch day over a few weekends.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

KnottyGurl said:


> I see a winter project in the making for you, if your on the hard for the winter then your good to go and by spring will have it repaired and ready for launch day over a few weekends.


Yikes, too many winter projects already...

So, the plan would be to jack up the deck (jack at the mast, as you explained), dig out the rot in the bulkhead, and replace it with something solid,?


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## scrappster (Feb 7, 2011)

The Catalina 27 like most other production boats tend to get deck deformation at the step. This can make tuning difficult. 
One thing I like to do if I'm tuning a boat. First thing is walk a few finger piers down and sight the position of your mast fore and aft. This is the time to put it in the right position. I'm amazed how many boats are tipped forward drastically generally due to mis tune or rigging lengths wrong. Every boat wants to be in a different spot, few want the forward lean.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

On a deck stepped mast (with compression post) on a 34 foot boat. I am amazed at how much force is on that post, even at dock. If I tension all my stays (total of 2) and shrouds (total of 6) to say 15% breaking load (8mm 316 stainless) then my approximate 4inch x 4 inch compression post will see somthing like 12,000 lbs downward force. Sounds like a lot.
Is my thinking right on this?


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

It's a rule of thumb that the compressive load on the rig can be equal to the displ of the boat. It varies with the width of the shroud base.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

As mentioned above, Selden has a good .Pdf file on setting up standing rigging, using amt. of stretch in the s.s. Shrouds should be just slack when on the lee side, certainly not flapping around. Changing tacks and taking a few turns each time on the slack side until they are equally slack on both tacks is actually a pretty good way to tune the rig without fancy tools. Sighting up the mast while using an accurate gauge is the best way but even then you can discover that some under-way tuning is needed when there is air in the sails.


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