# Buy a steel boat or not?



## Polypterus (Dec 16, 2009)

In my ongoing saga of tying to find a boat I like, the latest one is a steel Robert Clark 1963 sloop. Leaving aside design and sailing aspects, I'm wondering if she will be a bad choice maintenance wise. The broker claims the boat is in tip top shape and indeed she looks very well cared for. I would still defiantly get a survey done and get the hull ultra sounded but how accurate is that? A couple of people have told me never buy a steel boat especially not an old one. However like everything else boat related I have also got the opposite opinion. From what the broker told me the last time the hull was ultra sounded in 1993 she had 3 to 4 mm of hull thickness. The real question for me is, what is the likely hood the hull has some hidden issues that won't show up on ultra sound?


----------



## Architeuthis (Mar 3, 2008)

I am certian that the boat has issues you do not know about, all boats do. 

I would really like a steel boat and have seen a few built that I would buy but I could not afford them. I hope my next boat to be steel. The key to me is the interior. If it is built plain, not fancy, and everything is easily unbolted and removed then repairs become affordable. 

Problem is most are not like that. Every person that installed something thought that his equipment was the most important, like the boat was built just for them. As a result much of the interior stuff is often permanently installed making removal difficult and expensive. 

If you look at this boat and figure you can strip it out with little effort then even if there are problems they can be fixed with minimum costs, maybe even by yourself. Of course you want that survey as some items are much more pricey to repair than others. 

But I've seen many parts welded into place or with no access, very common to not beable to see everywhere and you want to be able to at least see if not access everywhere. Cutting the ship open to access something is fine as long as you do not have to spend a week stripping carpet from the hull or rewiring because junction boxes are just a hassle as far as the electrician was concerned. 

The neat thing about some of the old steel boats I looked at was the records. One showed that none of the orginal hull remained, every piece had been replaced over the years. That was a nice boat but outta my price range.


----------



## kaluvic (Jan 14, 2009)

For my comfort level..3-4mm is thin...you are in no contingency land!


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

A really well built and maintained steel hull will not be an inexpensive one.. a well-looked-after older hull COULD be OK - just like any other boat built of any other material.

Today's steel boats have benefited greatly from the advances in coatings and corrosion protection measures. One would have to wonder if a boat built in '63 will have taken advantage of any of that.

There's nothing quite like the confidence you'll feel in the strength and integrity of a good steel boat, but the yard-built ones are pricey, and the DIYs will require careful scrutiny. Ultrasonic testing is quite accurate, but only wrt to the specific areas tested.

Here's a recent cautionary tale about an (admittedly neglected) steel Folkes 37, a popular owner-built design here abouts. Having been idle in her slip for some time, a considerable crop of mussels and growth had accumulated. The owner, deciding it was time to sell, hired a diver to clean the hull. Part way through the cleaning, the boat began to take on water.. a hastily arranged haulout ensued. I saw the boat on the hard a couple of days later.. there were several thumb-sized holes in the immediate area of one of the thruhulls. The growth and mussels had actually kept this area sealed as the metal was corroding away... yikes! Seeing that you had to wonder what the rest of the hull was really like!


----------



## Polypterus (Dec 16, 2009)

Thanks guys for you input. The boat is actually yard built in the Netherlands. Here she is:

Barracuda

I guess I'll just have to make a judgment call after a survey/ultra-sound. At least she's on the hard at the moment so I can save the cost of hauling her. The transportation to the USA is a bit pricey but I found a company that will ship her to Los Angeles for a reasonable price and from there, I can get friends help to get her to San Francisco.


----------



## r.furborough (May 28, 2006)

That's a nice boat. Steel can be replaced easily at a cost, then only a little more care is needed to prevent galvanic corrosion. Steel is tough and it takes a really severe problem to brach the integrity of the hill.

Personally, If your like the boat, go for it!!!


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

She's pretty... is she still in Holland? If these pics are recent she looks in great shape.. but once again you've got wooden (plywood) decks on the metal hull - it does appear that at least part of the decks have been redone in 1994.. Don't quote me but I think the text says the pictures are from '94/95. New rig in 2009 too...(if I'm translating that correctly.. IF...)

I don't imagine she's too roomy by today's standards, but probably sails well enough - and will look great doing it. 11 tonnes on a 30'waterline, no lightweight that's for sure.


----------



## Polypterus (Dec 16, 2009)

Yeah she's still in Holland. The mast is new in '09, so they said. Not sure about the pictures either though. The broker has told me she's in great shape for whatever that's worth. Guess I'll find out if/when I look at her. She's got 6 tons of ballast (over 50%). Probably needs it with the narrow beam.


----------



## Kedge (Jul 1, 2009)

*V Pretty!*

I've owned steel - would do it again in a flash. My wife convinced me to go there for safety reasons when we had a young family - BUT you need to know something about the history of the coatings used. THis is both so you know what to use in re-coating, and also to make some judgement abou how she will hold up over time.

As others have pointed out, she has not benifited from from epoxies and 2-pak poly UNLESSS she has been blasted and re-coated in recent history. When we brought our steel boat (34ft) the first thing we did was blasted below the waterline and re-coated with epoxy. We owned her for 6 yrs, and in that time we only had to water-balst the bottom annually and re-coat. Seriously low maintenance set-up


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Pretty boat and Robert Clark was a great designer. If the pictures are recent she's in great shape and well kept. I love the mooring bitt on the foredeck as well as the Sestrel compass (same model I had on a previous boat). I agree with Faster the decks are probably more of a liability than the steel hull. Siemans-Martin steel, 4 to 6 mm originally. Amazing how much Dutch you can decipher without knowing the language. A previous poster said 3-4mm is thin but not for steel in good shape. Stronger than glass many times thicker and it dents rather than puncturing like glass with the same blow. Looks like a very well designed boat that's been loved, and well equipped too. I hope you're not just going to daysail! She's designed and equipped for much more.
As far as the hull the inside deserves a good inspection, especially alongside frames for corrosion, as it would start inside. But if the hull is ok there isn't much that can't be fixed. Do I sound envious?


----------



## Polypterus (Dec 16, 2009)

mitiempo said:


> Do I sound envious?


Well ..... a bit, but in this case it's a positive  Actually I think I was wrong about the hull thickness. I was posting from memory. My dutch translator says "Thickness skin 4/6 mm .. Last thickness measurement 1993". That probably explains where her displacement comes from.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

That thickness is typical for a steel vessel that size. 1/8' (3mm) is normal for a steel boat under 40' with the proper framing. And Huisman have worldwide respect as builders. Here's a link to the Yachtworld listing in English. 
Google Translate
Robert Clark designed some beautiful, fast boats including the Mystery class of the thirties and Chay Blyth's British Steel, the first boat to circumnavigate non-stop the wrong way around. Coincidently the designer of my CS27 and Maine sail's CS36 was Ray Wall who started as an apprentice to Clark before joining Camper & Nicholson where he designed the Nicholson 55 before coming to Canada and working for Canadian Sailcraft.
I wish you luck - she looks like a great boat in all respects.


----------



## kaluvic (Jan 14, 2009)

mitiempo said:


> That thickness is typical for a steel vessel that size. 1/8' (3mm) is normal for a steel boat under 40' with the proper framing. And Huisman have worldwide respect as builders. Here's a link to the Yachtworld listing in English.
> Google Translate
> Robert Clark designed some beautiful, fast boats including the Mystery class of the thirties and Chay Blyth's British Steel, the first boat to circumnavigate non-stop the wrong way around. Coincidently the designer of my CS27 and Maine sail's CS36 was Ray Wall who started as an apprentice to Clark before joining Camper & Nicholson where he designed the Nicholson 55 before coming to Canada and working for Canadian Sailcraft.
> I wish you luck - she looks like a great boat in all respects.


With all do respect....can you direct me to the site of a builder that uses that thickness?
I cant imagine anything less than 6mm below the water line... and 5mm above.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Steel hulls are regularly built of 10 gauge material. 10 gauge is 3.5mm. The boat being discussed is built with 4 to 6 mm plating. This assumes a good builder - Huisman is one of the world's best. Many hard chine hulls are built in steel (and aluminum) with minimal framing. This is very popular in France, many with lifting keels. These hulls use thicker plating. But a gracefully designed round chine hull with the proper internal framing both vertical frames and multiple longitudinals will be lighter and plenty strong enough. And very fair when built properly by a skilled builder. The Dutch are considered masters at steel construction as well. Here's a link to a materials comparison. Scroll down to steel construction. Metal Boats For Blue Water - Kasten Marine Design, Inc.


----------



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I've always been a fan of Robert Clark's designs. He certainly had the eye. I remember falling utterly in love with a 60 odd foot ketch of his way back in the 70's. I think she was called Sir Thomas Lipton and affectionately known as Tea Bags. Beautiful thing. Not that I was ever going to own her, but she was my fancy for quite some time.

The Womboat's steel. A 34' Van de Stadt. I don't really have any problem with the material though in a smaller boat you suffer greatly when compared to timber or glass versions of the same boat. Though in no way do I reget having bought her, I'd never consider a steel boat under 40' again. The advantages are literally outweighed by the cons. We displace a couple of thousand pounds more than the glass or timber versions, none of it in the keel. 

That said, as long as you keep on top of the maintenance steel is not overly problematic. A Dremel and a pot of good anti rust gunk (we use Por 15) keeps it at bay though after 20 years the old girl really should be taken back to bare metal and done from scratch. I'm sure if she was she would be good for more than another twenty. 

Good luck to you.


----------



## Polypterus (Dec 16, 2009)

kaluvic said:


> With all do respect....can you direct me to the site of a builder that uses that thickness?
> I cant imagine anything less than 6mm below the water line... and 5mm above.


Actually I think he may be correct on that. I don't have any specific builders but I was reading the book "steel away" yesterday and they were talking about guages used in yacht building. Evidently older steel yachts had thicker hulls. With newer yachts they use newer welding techniques and hull protection and can build hulls much thinner. Further more even fairly heavy built new aluminum hulls are only 1/4 inch which is 6.35 mm and many yachts including the 1968 33' Huisman I looked at have 3/16 aluminum plate (4.7625 mm) and that's only in aluminum. For steel I would expect the hull to be somewhat thinner. 6mm in steel sounds like a light armored vehicle to me. I can give you the page numbers or quotations from the book if you are interested when I get into work. I'm assuming with larger yachts the plate thickness goes up accordingly. What size of yacht were you thinking of?


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Re - Photos .... Is that propane tank really inside the cabin ? and is the propane hose really connected with a gear clamp ? - BANG !


----------



## Polypterus (Dec 16, 2009)

boatpoker said:


> Re - Photos .... Is that propane tank really inside the cabin ? and is the propane hose really connected with a gear clamp ? - BANG !


Yeah I noticed that too. That's one thing I would have to change. I was thinking I could turn the storage behind the cockpit into a propane locker.


----------



## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Man! Beautiful Boat!!!


----------



## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

*Not too fast...*

Glancing through the thread makes me want to ask some questions. What kind of sailing are you planning? The cockpit looks to be designed for ocean passages. It's narrow, with not a lot of stowage. It doesn't look like there's a lot of space for spreading out to watch the sunset. Do those slats look comfortable to you? Do the winches still work? When did they stop making them? If they replaced the mast in 2009 why didn't they replace the wire-reel main halyard winch at the same time? Those can be really nasty and dangerous to use, and there's no need for them, with synthetic fiber line available that is thinner (if you want that) and that stretches less than the wire. Where are you planning to sail? This boat is HEAVY, and has a pretty short mast by today's standards. That may provide OK performance on the Zuider Zee, but if you're sailing in a light-air region, the engine will likely be getting a solid workout, often. Is the engine in good shape? I've been on one site where discussions of problems with Perkins (104's?) were banned because they became all-enveloping. Is the apparently ramshackle approach to propane connections the tip of an iceberg?

Though she does look like a well-built and pretty boat, unless the price was really right, I'd be really careful. Paint can hide a multitude of sins, and this boat looks to be carefully painted (and nicely varnished, too). When a church nearby here did some renovations recently, they found that the balcony's supports had rotted away, and that essentially only the paint had been holding the thing in place. Also, as is apparent from Wombat's cogent post, rust never sleeps.


----------



## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

You need a reeeeeeeeeeeeely good survey by someone who's an expert. Here's a real story.
I had a friend who fell in love with a 50 ft steel powerboat built by a top name German yard. I advised a good survey. It was done with OK results. They later pulled the boat and found than hull rust had been "double plated" over and sections had to be cut out and new plate welded in. They also found that the tank areas hadn't been inspected and frame webbing had rusted out as well. They were pretty well off to begin with and one was a project manager. Still they sold thier house, used up thier savings and finally threw in the towel on the project and moved to project jobs in Korea. 
There are surveyors who do steel ships and can do the job right so you know what you're getting into. Check with reputable shipyards and insurers. Mak sure that you know what they're checking and what they're not.
Best of luck!


----------



## Polypterus (Dec 16, 2009)

Thanks Paulk and Waltthesalt for you input. To answer some of your questions I'll be sailing initially in the San Francisco bay. It blows pretty hard here especially in the summer so I think that should be OK. As for the mast they tell me the new mast is aluminum. I think those are old pictures so I'm not sure what else they changed. I've been pummeling them with questions. Evidently the boat was given the once over in '93 and some of the plating was replaced and they used some paint system on the inside. They keep insisting it's in great shape and the owner has cared for it lovingly for the last 35 years or so. I'm not sure about the engine but I have a decent size budget in case I need to put a new Yanmar in her.

In any case I'm going there the week after next which brings me to my next question. I can find surveyors in the Netherlands on Yachtworld but I don't know how good any of them are? Anyone have any advice on finding someone good in the Netherlands? I have no clue about who or who is not reputable. I don't even know what shipyards and insurers are reputable other than Royal Huisman who really doesn't build smallish yachts any more.


----------

