# Fid Diameter?



## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

If anybody out there has a set of the Samson tubular aluminium splicing fids, would you be so kind as to measure the diameters of each and let me know?

I've got a machinist friend who might be interested in making some sets of an improved fid design. I can find references to length all over the 'net, but none for diameter.

Thanks,
Jim


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

A friend who splices Samson double braid for a living, doesn't even use a fid, just a coat hanger, bent like a bobby pin. Instead of pushing the ends thru, he pulls them thru, eliminating the thickness of the fid. One size fits all.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Brent Swain said:


> A friend who splices Samson double braid for a living, doesn't even use a fid, just a coat hanger, bent like a bobby pin. Instead of pushing the ends thru, he pulls them thru, eliminating the thickness of the fid. One size fits all.


Sort of a poor man's splicing wand, I guess 

n00bs like me need the fids. Maybe, after I've done enough splicing, I'll graduate to a coat hanger 

Jim


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## msmith10 (Feb 28, 2009)

aluminum knitting needles work just fine for 1/4 the cost. Just cut them on an angle to the correct length (21-22 times line diameter). For a pusher, I ground down the end of a trash small-handled screwdriver. All the fids nest inside each other and the screwdriver, with the inner end of the handle ground down to a taper, fits tightly over the open end of the largest fid as a cap.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I left mine on the boat, and my digital calipers are in the basement. If, and when, I get them in the same place at the same time, I will make measurements for you.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I have the Samson set and for the most part do better with a bronze brazing rod as the fid never seems to be able to pass through sta-set


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

For less than $40 you can have a kit that includes fids, instructions, a pusher and a plastic tube to keep it in. How much time do you think it'll take your friend to turn some fids out? And what does he charge an hour?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

stamped 7/16 or 10mm actual .327" 9.67mm length 9.5"
stamped 1/2" or 12 mm actual .407" 10.34 mm length 11"
stamped 5/15 or 8 mm actual .281" 7.14 mm length 6.75"

But as others have said the diameter does not seem super important


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

msmith10 said:


> aluminum knitting needles work just fine ...


These, if we... well, he, decide to make them, will work better, IMO.



eherlihy said:


> I left mine on the boat, and my digital calipers are in the basement. If, and when, I get them in the same place at the same time, I will make measurements for you.


Thanks! davidpm's given his, but I'm looking also to see if there's consistency in diameter.



tommays said:


> I have the Samson set and for the most part do better with a bronze brazing rod as the fid never seems to be able to pass through sta-set


Thus part of the reason for my research. One accomplished sailor I know goes down a fid size or two for the burying. That should not be necessary, IMO.



zz4gta said:


> For less than $40 you can have a kit that includes fids, instructions, a pusher and a plastic tube to keep it in. How much time do you think it'll take your friend to turn some fids out? And what does he charge an hour?


We don't know the answers to any of your questions, yet.



davidpm said:


> stamped 7/16 or 10mm actual .327" 9.67mm length 9.5"
> stamped 1/2" or 12 mm actual .407" 10.34 mm length 11"
> stamped 5/15 or 8 mm actual .281" 7.14 mm length 6.75"


Thanks!



davidpm said:


> But as others have said the diameter does not seem super important


I believe that to be the case, except in three respects: 1. You need to be able to more-or-less get the bit of rope you want (cover, core) into the end of the fid. 2. Strength. You don't want the fid bending or breaking when you're using it. 3. You want the pointy end to be big enough so it isn't overly difficult to avoid snagging the core or cover as you're guiding it through to start a bury.

Thanks for the replies, everybody.

Jim


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

SEMIJim said:


> I believe that to be the case, except in three respects: 1. You need to be able to more-or-less get the bit of rope you want (cover, core) into the end of the fid. 2. Strength. You don't want the fid bending or breaking when you're using it.
> Jim


1.
I was taught by a rigger that can do a double braid loop in just minutes as he does them every day. He did the thinning step before the bury so fitting the end into the fid is no problem.

2. You would never be pushing the fid so hard as to bend anything. If you are you are not doing it right.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

davidpm said:


> 1.
> I was taught by a rigger that can do a double braid loop in just minutes as he does them every day. He did the thinning step before the bury so fitting the end into the fid is no problem.


Of course. It would be unnecessarily difficult to taper _after_ you threaded for the bury 



davidpm said:


> 2. You would never be pushing the fid so hard as to bend anything. If you are you are not doing it right.


I can neither agree or disagree with that, being as I'm a bit of a splicing novice. I was only suggesting one reason one might not want the fids to be _too_ thin.

Jim


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

SEMIJim said:


> I believe that to be the case, except in three respects: 1. You need to be able to more-or-less get the bit of rope you want (cover, core) into the end of the fid. 2. Strength. You don't want the fid bending or breaking when you're using it.
> Jim


1.
I was taught by a rigger that can do a double braid loop in just minutes as he does them every day. He did the thinning step before the bury so fitting the end into the fid is no problem.

2. You would never be pushing the fid so hard as to bend anything. If you are you are not doing it right.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Jim, I only have one Sampson fid. It's a 1/2" fid that measures .406 od and .350 id. 
I have made all my own fids but I simply used whatever stock I could find laying around. From 3/16" to 1/2". Stainless and aluminum. All the fids that I made I tapped threads into. It makes it much faster and easier to attach them to the tapered and taped end of the line. Been using them for about 20 years now and have always wondered why Sampson and New England haven't adopted the idea. 
Good luck.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

knothead said:


> Jim, I only have one Sampson fid. It's a 1/2" fid that measures .406 od and .350 id.


Interesting. So the OD is about 1/10" smaller than the rope's nominal diameter. Thanks for the info.



knothead said:


> I have made all my own fids but I simply used whatever stock I could find laying around. From 3/16" to 1/2".


You generally use stock that's the same OD as the nominal diameter of the rope for which it's intended?



knothead said:


> All the fids that I made I tapped threads into. It makes it much faster and easier to attach them to the tapered and taped end of the line. Been using them for about 20 years now and have always wondered why Sampson and New England haven't adopted the idea.
> Good luck.


I wonder the same. They do work well, don't they?

So here's the deal: I have a set of fids, made for a local chandlery, that are just like what you describe. That chandlery was bought by, and turned into a WM. The WM inherited the stock, incl. what was left of the custom fids. I got one of the last sets, but it's incomplete. In particular: I'm missing one of the most useful: The 5/16" fid. So I talked to a buddy that owns his own machine shop about what it would take/cost to fabricate the missing fids. He said he wouldn't charge me, save the material cost. Then he, always looking for an opportunity, asked "What if I made 100 sets of these things? Could we sell 'em? How much could we sell 'em for?" I said I did not know, but I'd research it.

This thread was the beginning of the research. I guess you could call it the "design phase." I was thinking: Perfect the design; figure out what it cost to make 'em, thus what he'd need to get for them to make it worth his time, then find out if there was a market.

There hasn't been all _that_ much interest in the thread, either here or on another forum in which I posted the question, so it's probably a non-starter.

Jim


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Jim,

When I started splicing I bought a nice new set of fids... Since then I have switched to using primarily crochet needles that cost about $1, and some random stuff that just works, like coat handlers, and political sign wire cut to size.

The only tool I really lust after is Brion Toss' wands, but I can't see spending the money. Not when my free wire works just fine.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

SEMIJim said:


> Interesting.
> 
> You generally use stock that's the same OD as the nominal diameter of the rope for which it's intended?
> 
> Jim


No, I just made a variety and I grab the one that looks like it would work. The OD of the fid must be smaller than the diameter of the line but large enough so that the ID can accept the tapered end of the core or cover.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

SEMIJim said:


> Of course. It would be unnecessarily difficult to taper _after_ you threaded for the bury


I mentioned tapering before threading for the bury because some (most? )of the directions show doing the bury then pulling it out for tapering then letting it slip back in for final setting.

I was unaware that it could be tapered in advance until shown how by an expert.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

davidpm said:


> 1.
> I was taught by a rigger that can do a double braid loop in just minutes as he does them every day. He did the thinning step before the bury so fitting the end into the fid is no problem.
> 
> 2. You would never be pushing the fid so hard as to bend anything. If you are you are not doing it right.


RE: point 2 - I gotta disagree with that one...






Watch starting around 07:00-08:00. I found that pushing past the Y of the splice, that it would get so tough that my pusher would bend... You can see at ~07:40 that the guy has trouble in the video too.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

davidpm said:


> I mentioned tapering before threading for the bury because some (most? )of the directions show doing the bury then pulling it out for tapering then letting it slip back in for final setting.


I used the NER video and Brion Toss' video. Neither one tells you to do it that way.



eherlihy said:


> I found that pushing past the Y of the splice, that it would get so tough that my pusher would bend... You can see at ~07:40 that the guy has trouble in the video too.


I don't use a pusher, but I can see that happening. With the threaded fids I use, I've found that I can _just_ get a fid-length into the cover. Thing is: Once the fid starts exiting the cover, and particularly once all that's in there is the core, things are as smooth as silk. Thus my wondering if thinner fids might not make sense.

Jim


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