# help with lifes dream



## kimby (May 18, 2004)

My husband I and our three kids want to sail from Duncan bc not to far from victora bc. To the Caribbean and were the wind takes us we will be sailing at our own pace. We will be home schooling we are both going to be taking alot of sailing courses my husband knows more about sailing then I do. we will be living on our sail boat. this is not something we are doing right away but we have been doing alot of research. I have found sailnet and it is great. We seem to think we will need a big sail boat. we need help what kinds of boats would you pick there are alot of things we need to do before we do anything will we be able to sail a big sail boat just the two of us our kids will be 14 10 and 9. And if there is anything anyone would like to say to help us with this lifes dream feel free.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Charter something for a weekend

If you like that charter something else for a week

At this point getting out on the water will do you a world of good. Theory is very helpful and I read everything I can but you have to go to know.

If you still love sailing after chumming the fish a few times then your on your way.


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## onojmai (May 4, 2004)

agreed, charter a boat. get out on the water.


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## magnusmurphy (Jul 7, 2000)

I know exactly where Duncan is and can tell you that you are in one of the most spectacular cruising areas in the world. You have every opportunity to learn to sail right at your doorstep.

Your first priority will be to obtain the new Canadian operator certificate without which you cannot even operate a motorized dinghy anymore.

Then contact one of the sailing schools in your area (there are ISPA schools in Sydney and in Comox). I don''t agree with the advise to go charter. It appears that you don''t have ANY experience..? You will need to take some courses for sure. I recommend talking to Chris or Cathy Parry at Island Cruising in Sydney. (250 656 7070). They can help set you up to obtain the necessary qualifications to point you in the right direction.

You can tell them I sent you. I know them from about five years of doing every course in the book...

However there are many schools. Just open the phone book and you will find them.
Magnus Murphy


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## splitmind (Dec 15, 2002)

I second the comment on island cruising in Sydney. We chartered for the first time with them in 2000 and found the yacht and all the staff top rate. I have fellow Toronto friends that have used Cooper, Island C and others but all seem happiest with Island Cruising.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Go for it! I am at the start of the skill building process myself for an eventual world cruise with child but I am on the EC (or will be in a couple of months). As you will be sailing with 3 children take a look at a catamaran to see if it might meet your needs better than a mono hull. They offer lots of advantages and the newer models may even be safer than a comprable monohull in bad weather from what I have read.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The dream of voyaging under sail can be a powerful one. Pretty much several times a month I receive an email requesting advice from someone who is considering doing just what you are proposing. I have watched literally dozens of folks go through this. Some are successful in getting ''out there'', some discover that they really enjoy sailing and find that they really have no need to ''go out there&#8217;; some have discovered that the sailing life is just not for them, and others have not even gotten past the dreaming stage. 

From what I have seen, the most successful (especially when children are involved) have been the ones who have been somewhat systematic about going. There is a lot to learn before one can safely venture offshore. No one would assume that they could buy a jet airliner take a few lessons and be able to fly around the world. I think most rational people would expect to start with a small plane and work their way up. But for some reason people assume that they can just go out and buy a big boat, take a couple lessons, read a few books, and then go safely cruising.

While there are people who literally taken a few lessons, read a few books and went out cruising, those that were successful going that route are far more rare than those who have done some kind of apprenticeship. Learning to sail and learning to cruise involves a lot of knowledge and no matter how much you know, there will always be more to learn, but I suggest that you at least take the time to learn the basics, and that just about can&#8217;t happen if you buy &#8216;a big sailboat&#8217; and move your family aboard. 

I find myself saying this a lot lately but here I go again. We all come to sailing with our own specific needs, our own specific goals and our own specific capabilities. The neat thing about sailing is that we all don&#8217;t have to agree that there is only one right way to go sailing. There is no more truth in expecting that there is one universally right answer about many aspects of sailing than there is in trying to prove that vanilla ice cream is universally better than strawberry ice cream. One area of sailing for which there is no one universally right answer involves the amount of knowledge one needs to go sailing. 

For some, all they need or want to know about sailing is just enough knowledge to safely leave the slip sail where they want and get back safely. There is nothing inherently wrong with that approach. But for others, like myself, there is much more to sailing than simply developing a rudimentary knowledge of sailing basics. If you fall into that camp, it is next to impossible to learn to sail really well on a boat as large as the one in question. 

While I am in no way suggesting that this makes sense for everyone, for those who really want to learn to sail well, I strongly suggest that they start out owning a used 23 to 27 foot, responsive, light-weight, tiller steered, fin keel/spade rudder (ideally fractionally rigged) sloop (or if they are athletically inclined then a dinghy.) Boats like these provide the kind of feedback that is so necessary to teach a newcomer how to really sail well. Boats like these have small enough loads on lines and the helm that you and your children can all participate and learn together. Being able to learn and participate, the children will be more engaged and less likely to be bored and feel kidnapped. 

By sailing well, I mean understanding the nuances of boat handling and sail trim in a way that cannot be learned on a larger boat. Used small boats generally hold their values quite well so that after a year or even few years or so of learning, you should be able to get most of your money out of the small boat and move on to a bigger boat actually knowing something about which specific desirable characteristics of a boat appeal to you as an experienced sailor rather than the preferences of some stranger on some Internet discussion group.

From the advice that you have already gotten you can tell that there will not be a consensus of opinion on how to go distance cruising. With all due respect to the EU gentlemen&#8217;s well-meaning advice, in my opinion it is exactly the wrong advice for what you are proposing to do. It is nearly impossible to learn to sail well on a catamaran that is large enough for a family of five, and without highly developed sailing skills, a cat that large is pretty dangerous offshore. 

In any event, I think that you have the right idea about taking sailing lessons. If I were in your shoes, I would sit down and put together a list of all of the things that I would want to know before I set off voyaging such as:
·	Boat handling,
·	Boat husbandry, repair and maintenance
·	Diesel maintenance and repair
·	First aid
·	Financial management from offshore
·	Home education methods
·	Heavy weather tactics
·	Legal restrictions on leaving and entering foreign countries
·	Navigation, (Celestial, dead reckoning and electronic) 
·	Provisioning
·	Radio operators license exam requirements
·	Safe and dangerous fish
·	Sail trim
·	Survival skills 
·	Etc&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..

Once you have what you thought was a complete list, I would suggest that you set up a schedule to try to develop those areas of skill that you felt you were currently lacking. As much as possible I would try to involve all those involved in as many of those aspects as each is capable of understanding. This process could take as little as a year, but more often takes two to three years. The process itself can be very rewarding. It can build the kind of family bonds that are required to be cast away on that oh-so-small island that a boat underway represents and may provide many of the kinds of wonderful experiences that you are venturing out there to enjoy. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Seconded, The learning curve is steep in dinghies & small boats. Get a small sailing dinghy or boat now for you & the kids to enjoy & learn on nice summer days.


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## kimby (May 18, 2004)

This will be a four year plan of getting ready with taking sailing courses and all the thing you have talked about we will be get a smaller sail boat while we are in our home to learn and have fun on. then we will start looking for our dream boat we will live on it and let time slowly set us of to the wind this is not something we are jumping into I am a person that likes to know what I am doing I feel much better that way. We were thinking of getting a cat but my husband works with a boat builder and he was talking to his wife she said she would not sail it in a cat they both know how to sail and have done alot of offshore sailing.
what size of boat and makes would be good for us for offshore sailing. I would like to thankyou for your write up and everyone who took the time to write


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## maxcontax (Jan 30, 2002)

kimby
you are living in one of the world''s primo sailing grounds, a great place to practice up for your adventure--also there is alot of local knowledge on sailing waiting for your questions. I gather you are new to all this: suggest you purchase a trainer boat like a Catalina 27 which you can buy in your area for about 12 to 14 thousand, and let the boat be your teacher. When you are ready to go, sell the boat for what you paid for it. you also have alot of resources with your sailing community in Duncan, once you get a trainer and get wet, so to speak, you will meet up with alot of experience.


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## geohan (Mar 8, 2000)

I don''t understand the terms &#8217 and &#8230 in your post of 0808 19 May 04. Are they just computer burps or some kind of hip slang?
Regards, George


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## geohan (Mar 8, 2000)

My 4:50 PM, 19 May post didn''t post as typed. Omitted were the ampersand and pound sign followed by 8217 and 8230. It must have been a computer thing.
George


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Jeff as usual makes excellent points. I only dissagree with his comments about Cats.

I do not see them to be unsafer than Monohulls ( when sailed responsible ) 
Especially in the cruising areas you are planning to explore. And the extra room will come in handy with 3 kids. 

But you have ample time to make up your mind, first start with a 24 to 27 footer 

Have fun on your journey 
Thorsten


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

My point about catamarans are two fold; First of all there really is not a lot of feedback when sailing a cruising catamaran which makes it very hard to really develop sailing skills. If one wants to learn to sail, I recommend against a catamaran and in favor of a more responsive monohull (not just any mono-hull). 

My second point about catamarans is that in heavy weather, things generally do go seriously wrong more suddenly than on a monohull and greater skills and quicker reflexes are needed at that time. If the helmsperson has not developed the boathandling skills to deal with that moment of truth, disasater is more likely to occur.

I also contend that you can get more useful accomodations and more carrying capacity in a mono-hull than a cat for the dollar but of course not more room for the same length. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You are again on the money Jeff. 

AS I also suggest a small responsive cabin boat is a must to get startet. 

And you are right that things can get ugly in a catamarane in extreme situations much faster. 

Cat lovers will quickly tell you that cats being much faster can outrun bad weather. Thats right and wrong and shouldnt give anybody a false sense of security. 

Also depending on the cruisng lifestyle Cats might not be the for everyone, as they loose all that speed and a lot of desirable treats, when they are loaded down. 

If one considers 20 % weight gain due to cruisng stuff on the boat, than these 20 % allow a lot of stuff in a heavy displacement monohull, but in a lightweight cat you barely have enough food for a week. I am exagerating of course to get my point over. 

Still I personally would look very hard for a 38 plus size Cat

Thorsten


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## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

kimby,

You admit it will be a 4-year plan of getting ready, so your most recent post asking for "boat size and makes" is really way too premature. If you follow through with your stated learning process, you will have plenty of time to narrow the choices down later. 

From all the good advice I have read in some well-written books, getting the boat you''ll be cruising in too early is one of the biggest mistakes you can make (especially if your funds are limited).

Keep your dream alive and make progress as fast as you reasonably can!

Duane


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## kimby (May 18, 2004)

I donot think size of boats is premature> We would just like some input on boat types that would be good for this with this all being new to use we have been looking at alot of boats I am the type of person you likes to think ahead. boats of a bigger size may be harder to find were I live I just want some input. I am sure you may think I am jumping the gun but I like to look at diffrent types to see what might be the best layout and maybe things we would like to have for this long sail.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

If you ask two sailors about almost anything you will get at least three opinions. There is no more controversial a question than what is a perfect first boat, no less what is the perfect family cruising boat. There is no one size fits all answer to this kind of question. You have not told us enough about yourself and your family so that we can even begin to give you meaningful input. We do not have a sense of your budget, or physical fitness. We don''t know how barebones and spartan or plush a boat you would prefer. We do not know how important reasonable performance is to you. We do not know what your fears are (If you are more afraid of running into something than you are of capsizing, for example, you might buy a steel boat, if you are more afraid of an uncomfortable motion than of running aground you might buy a deeper keel boat. etc. ) 

And to begin to make reasoned recommendations we need a basis since all boats are compromises. They are compromises between optimum sailing ability and the need for accommodations or shoal draft. For example, if a boat gets wider it gets more stable up to a point but then it has less reserve stability to right itself if it goes over. If a boat is too wide and blunt, it has a lot of drag but lots of room down below. If a boat is too narrow it has less drag but if too narrow won&#8217;t have much stability or room down below. Too much weight and the boat is slow and hard to handle, too little weight the boat is fast, fun, and easy to handle up to a point but at some point takes greater skills and athletic ability. 

If you ask some sailors, they will recommend a traditional design because they are a bit harder to get into trouble with. I somewhat disagree. I really think that the boat you buy should be responsive enough that you can learn proper sail trim and boat handling. I have taught a lot of people to sail and I firmly believe that to really learn to sail the boat should be light and responsive enough that you can experiment with sail trim and sailing angles and see and feel the results. I recommend a boat with a reasonably easily driven hull and reasonably modern rig and underbody. I find that fractional rigged sloops are really the easiest to learn proper sail trim on. Much of this depends on your own priorities. There are a lot people out on the water who really only understand the rudimentary aspects of sail trim and boat handling. That works for them and I am not judging them. If you really want to learn the fine points of sailing then I would stick to sloop 30 feet or less in length and of light to moderate displacement and a fin keel and spade rudder. Beginners sometimes think they prefer wheel steering, but on the size boats you are talking about a tiller is far and away better both to learn on and to sail with. 

Under no circumstances should a first boat be a new boat. When you buy a new boat, there are a lot of decisions to be made and a huge amount of work sorting the boat out so that it is easy to sail and so that all of the little things are available and convenient. If you have never owned a boat and have not spent years sailing on lost of different boats (or at least a boat of your own) you do not have the knowledge base to know what it is that you want to do or what your options are. With a used boat, someone else has spent the time and money setting the boat up. You can try it out and if it does not work you can walk away and find a boat that does or knock down the price to correct the problem. People rarely hold onto first boats terribly long. As they learn their tastes, needs and goals change. Perhaps they want a more serious cruising boat or perhaps they want a to try racing. First boats tend to get beat up a bit. There is enormous depreciation on new boats, (masked by comparing base prices to the actual cost of equipping one) and so with the probability that a first boat will be sold more quickly than a second it makes no sense to buy new. 

The key in picking any boat is to figure out where you are going to sail, what your abilities are and what your real needs are. Different sailing venues favor different types of boats. If you sail in an area with light winds, for example, you want a lighter weight boat with a generous sail plan or you will be very frustrated. As a beginner sailor you want a boat that is responsive enough to give you clues about sail trim and boat handling. You also have to ask yourself how are you going to use a boat. Will you only daysail, or do you think you want to spend nights aboard cruising. Do you want to trailer a boat to keep costs down or do you want to keep the boat in the water because it is way more convenient and is less abusive to the boat? 

Here is a list of good first boats: (These should all be under 25K, most have inboards which I think is preferable for cruising.)

-Albin Ballad (30 feet (1973-1978) $12-20K) 
These are reasonably fast and very well built and finished boats. They are not especially roomy but are good boats for short handing. They are beautiful looking boats. Most have a Volvo 10 hp diesel.

Albin Cumulus (28 feet-(early 1980&#8217;s) $15-18K) 
These fractional rigged sloops would be a ideal first boat. They are reasonably fast (although 60 sec&#8217;s a mile slower than my Laser 28) and easy to handle. They are nicely finished and typically have diesels. The interiors on these boats are not exactly plush but is reasonable for the kind of stuff we do on the Chesapeake. 

Beneteau First 30 or 30E (30 feet (early 1980&#8217;s) $18-22K) 
Fairly modern design that should sail reasonably well. Not the most solid boats but fine for around here. They had diesels and pretty good hardware. The 30E might be a fractional rig, I don&#8217;t recall. 

-C&C 26

-C&C Corvette (31 feet (1967- 1970) $15-22K) and &#8211;C&C Redwing (30 footer ( 1965-1970) $12K- 20K)
Attractive and reasonably venerable designs; they are not especially fast but OK for the era. The Corvettes are moderately long keel/ centerboard boats and so are great for poking around the shallower areas of the Bay. The Redwings are fin keel/spade rudder boats. They are really not competitive racers any longer. 

Cal 2-30 and Cal 2-29&#8217;s (just under 30 feet (mid 1960-early 1970&#8217;s) $10-18K)
These are reasonably well built racer cruisers that have reasonable accommodations and pretty fair sailing ability. Like the Cal 25, the design is a dated and if the gear has not been updated will be less convenient than a more modern design. Still they sail quite well and can be a good all around boat.

Catalina 27&#8217;s: (1970&#8217;s to 1980&#8217;s) (Under $12K)
While not especially well built boats, they are reasonable first boats offering a nice interior and reasonable sailing ability. (I am not a fan of the Catalina 30&#8217;s. While ostensibly an enlargement of the 27, they really do not sail as well as the 27 and are particularly poor in a chop.) 

Dehler 31 (31 feet (Mid to late 1980&#8217;s) under $20K to mid-20K range) 
These are really neat little boats. They are not as fast as my Laser 28 say but are quite fast and look easier to sail and single-hand. They are fractional rigged and have a very nice interior plan. They would one of my favorites on this list for a first boat that can be both cruised and raced.

Dufour 2800 (28 feet (mid 1980&#8217;s) mid $20K)
These are OK boats with a big following. They are not my favorite but they would not be a bad boat if the price were right.

Irwin Competition 30 (30 feet(mid 1970&#8217;s) $12-16K) 
These were well rounded little boats that sailed well and had reasonably nice interiors. There was one that dominated its class in PHRF for years. Irwin&#8217;s were not the most solidly built boats and so you are looking for a well maintained example in reasonably good shape. 

MG27 (27 foot (Mid 1980&#8217;s) under $20K)
Nice little fractional rigged English boats. They seem to be well mannered and have an interior layout similar to my Laser 28. They have a diesel aux. But tiny tanks that will need to get upgraded. 

Oday 28 & 30 (28 feet and 30 feet(late 1970&#8217;s and early 1980&#8217;s) $12-20K)
These were not the best built boats or the fastest boats in their day but are common and sail reasonably well.

1970&#8217;s vintage Tartan 30&#8217;s, (30 feet( 1970&#8217;s) under $20K)
These are my favorite masthead sloops of that era. They are good all around boats. Most still atomic 4&#8217;s but you can find them with diesels. 

Late 70&#8217;s/ early 80&#8217;s Hunter 30&#8217;s, (30feet (15-20K)
These are under appreciated boats. We have had two in my family and again it is a matter of finding one that has been upgraded and is in good clean shape. My Dad raced his in PHRF and went for a couple years without finishing lower than a first or second. They are roomy and surprisingly fast. 

70&#8217;s vintage Pearson 30&#8217;s (Not Flyers)
These are very venerable racer/cruisers here on the Chesapeake. They have an active one-design class and are also good boats for cruising the Bay. I have no idea how common they are where you are based. Of course they come in all kinds of condition from really well maintained and up graded with good racing hardware and a diesel engine to stripped and trashed. You can buy them from under $10K (but you would not want any in that price range) to something approaching $20K. You should find good boats in the high teens.

Ranger 29 (29 (early 1970&#8217;s) 10-18K) 
These are good sailing and nice cruising boats. They should be adequate for club racing and are certainly good boats. They were not the best built boats and so again you should be looking for a clean and updated version. Still they offer a lot of bang for the buck. 

Wylie 28 and Wylie 30 (28 and 30 respectively(late 1970&#8217;s to early 1980&#8217;s) 10-15K)
These are neat little boats that sail well and are really pretty interesting. The few that I have seen have good hardware and have had simple but workable interiors. They came in fractional and masthead rig versions. There was a masthead version that did quite well on the Bay. There was a one design version called a Hawkfarm but they never caught on the Chesapeake but are still raced in S.F. Bay.



If you want something that is more of a race boat than cruiser, you might look at :
J-30&#8217;s
Kirby 30&#8217;s
Laser 28&#8217;s
Shockwave (also called Schockwave 30, or Wavelength 30 ) 


If you want some thing more traditional 
Alberg 30&#8217;s
C&C Redwings and Corvettes
Pearson Coasters, and Wanderer&#8217;s 


You will find that these boats that are more traditional boats have less room and will have older equipment but they should be less money. 

Jeff


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi Jeff:

I want to state quite clearly that I have little to no experience in these matters and was just going on what I have read and the fact that 3 children were involved and it might be easier and more comfortable for them on a cat. I didn''t realize that you needed more skill to manage a cat in a blow than you did a mono hull, sorry. In fact one of the advantages I though a cat had was that it was able to be taken out in heavier weather than a monohull because of the more sea kindly motion but I suppose that is only up to a certain point. Also a Cat seems attractive because you can get in to many more places with its shallow draft, which has to be good for cruisers. And I also have read that the new larger cats are safer than the equivalent monohull in heavy weather but obviously the writers may be biased and are usually very experienced sailors of Cats.

I am moving close to the Pamlico Sound and had thought of getting a mid 30 ft cat to learn to sail on (the sound being shallow) for a few years while my child grows up (she is 5 this summer and I thought I would buy it in about a year when she is about 6 and a more proficient swimmer). Maybe something like a Maine Cat that would allow us to stay aboard for several nights at a time while cruising around the sound and the ICW that would not be too difficult to single hand (it would just be me and her most of the time). Initially I was going to have a sailing teacher join me on board for as long as it took for me to get proficient enough to know what I was doing to be safe within the confines of the sound and pass the basic OUPV and just about all the ASA courses. Then sail the inland areas for a couple of year or two before making brief forays outside the safety of the outer banks. Eventually progressing to runs up and down the East Coast, then to the Caribbean and eventually further a field in about 10 years when my daughter is 14-17 years old. 

This whole plan is an integral part of my home schooling plan for her too.

I have sailed smaller 14 fts extensively about a decade ago and have chartered 22-36 ft keel boats on a number of occasions for day sailing in protected, and I have done a lot of windsurfing but I would hardly say I knew how to sail or even how to trim sails properly. Would your advice still be that I get a 22''-24'' keel boat for the first years rather than a 30 ft Cat (seems it would be easier for me to sail and cruise the sound with my young child initially on the cat)?

Thanks for your words of wisdom all over this site, they are really educational.

Regards,
EC


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I am sorry if my comments sounded like I was picking on you. My comments were not intended to pick on you as much as to demonstrate that there are a wide range of opinions out there and then to comment that my own opinion differed quite a bit from your own. 

I am not precisely sure what to recommend to someone sailing in the Pamlico Sound area. It is one of the few areas on the U.S. Atlantic coast that I am not all that familiar with. My sense of that region is that you are doing sailing in waters that are fairly shallow, have strong currents, and which typically have light winds puntuated by some pretty heavy and sudden thunderstorms packing high winds. 

You also say that you want to sail with a young child. A Catammaran may be a good boat for that kind of application. Cats offer a lot of deck space, which at anchor would be a good thing.

Back to my original point, if your goal is to develop sailing skills, a cruising catamaran is a poor platform for that purpose. While you can learn a lot about sailing and can enjoy being out on the water, there is relatively little ''feel'' to a cruising cat, and that feel is what provides the feed back to learn helmsmanship and sail trim. That does not make Cats a bad choice for a shallow water venue, it simply means that they are hard boats to learn to sail well on. 

The whole debate about the relative offshore safety of a monohull vs a cruising cat comes down to what you fear most. If you fear capsizing more than you fear sinking then a monohull will seem safer. But of you fear sinking more than you fear capsizing then a Cat would seem safer. That said in recent years the big cruising cats have been capsizing with a comparatively high regularity and they are not staying afloat. The use of rudders that terminate within the hull shell and the addition of multiple sink drains have provided air vents that allow the cat to vent the air that is necessary to keep them afloat in the inverted position.

I would also like to touch on motion comfort with a cat. Cats are not necessarily more seakindly. They offer a different motion but not necessarily one that is more universally comfortable. It is true that Cats roll less than monohulls in most conditions, but they tend to have quicker, jerkier pitch, roll and heave motions. For many people that quick motion is far harder to tollerate than the slower motion of a monohull. 

In the end, given your single-handing with a very young child and the shallow venue that you are in, I am not 100% sure of what to tell you. My initial impulse is to suggest that you proceed with your plan to buy a moderate sized Cat because it will may easier to handle with a young child aboard (although many cats are not reliable in stays and so take skillful carefully timed sail handling to even tack the boat, something that is hard to do while tending a young child.)

If you decide that you really want to develop your skills further, 3 or 4 years out, when your child is a little older and more physically mature, I would buy a monohull and use that as a training platform to develop your skills. 

After owning both you will be a better position to decide which type makes sense for your more ambitious East Coast, then to the Caribbean and eventually further a field ambitions. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## saltydawg (May 20, 2004)

The thing to consider when you hear opinions on cruising catamarans is how much experince the opinion giver has cruising on catamarans personally. 
We have been doing it for 6 years and it was our first "real boat". She was a kind and forgiving teacher and a safe and sturdy cruiser. Cats make alot of sense for long term, family cruising like you plan to do. 
Without going into a dissertation... considering your cruising goals and family size, take a look at a used St. Francis 44 cat. I don''t know your budget and such... but we just moved up from our dear PDQ36 (which we loved!) to a St. Francis 44 with the pending arrival of our first child in 4 weeks! They are strong, fast, sturdy, and incredibly roomy for a fmaily! We have been thrilled to find out that they are easy to handle too despite the big step up in size from the 36.
Do your homework, follow your heart, and I hope to see you out there!


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## kimby (May 18, 2004)

Thankyou for your input. A cat was our 1st choice but we have heard so much about them now we are seconded guessing our choice. We thought the room would be good with the three kids. What kind of sailing do you do with your cat do you do alot of offshore. we wanted some that was stable. We will be sailing from Duncan bc to the carribean doing some island hopping to and were ever the wind takes us. our buget is about 160 thousand our alittle more we can go more if we have to. I donot see money being aproblem we are just trying to find out what kinds ouf sail bouts would be good. so we can plan a budget from now till we buy our dream boat. we will be getting something smaller to learn. Then we will buy our bigger boat. live on it take it out get the feel for it and when we are ready we will set sail.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

(This post is not meant to insult, but to ask a sincere and valid question that needs to be considered if three children are to receive a decent education. Please save your outrage for the guy who advocates removing the swivel from his ground tackle.).

Kimby,

How are you going to correct your children''s home schooled papers, when you yourself rarely construct a sentence free of some spelling, punctuation, capitalization or grammatical mistake?

Maybe your spouse would be the better qualified to take on the job of English teacher, and you can oversee your kids'' history, science, or math assignments. If nothing else, make sure you bring along a good speller and grammar book, and learn together. It could turn out to be quite rewarding.

Curiously,
Jeff C


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks for the advice Jeff and I didn''t feel like you were picking on me I was apologizing for not making it clear that I really didn''t know what I was talking about from experience and was just repeating what I had read. 

You mentioned that some of the big crusing Cats have capsized and sunk in recent years, are you talking about the big racing cats or actual crusing cats? All the cat sales people keep emphasizing that there is no recorded case of a crusing cat in the 45-50ft range having capsized. 

Do you know if there is a marine equivalent to the climbing accident review? I.e. a repository of all marine accidents? In climbing these are good to read as they provide a real insight in to what can go wrong and what to avoid in order to stay safe on the rock and in the mountains. In sailing I imagine it would provide an insight in to the types of boats that do well in a blow and those that don''t and what things to specifically check and reinforce before going off shore.

I think that in the end you are probably right, the only way to really know which one one prefers is to try both but I really thought from what I have read that the Cat had the edge in both capsize and sinking in extreme weather. Also the I was under the impression that he loads generated on a cat are substantially lower than those on a monhull becasue of the usually smaller sail area for boat length.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi JeffC: As one who is planning to HS I can say that if I wrote as poorly in my professional life as I do when I post to the odd message board I would not be in a position to afford a boat;-). You may be assuming too much with regard to Kimby''s abilities.


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## kimby (May 18, 2004)

I didnot know we all had a teacher here.
Hafe the time I am in a hurry.
Don,t you worry my three kids will be just fine.
Thankyou for the insult, I am more then qualified. I do know one thing Jeff C you are good at insults.
Thankyou Kimby..........................


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## saltydawg (May 20, 2004)

Wow, Kimby, I think you should pretend you never read that little swipe. I have to say I actually earn my full time living (and a good living I should say) as a writer. But it''s CERTAINLY not reflected in random message board posts as I dash out little bits between real world work. PLEASE. I''d just as soon correct your spelling on a chat board as I would correct your grammar over the VHF radio. 

Anyhow, I am only half awake at present, so this won''t go far... but I know that Lloyds of London has a large cash reward out for anyone that can give them a photo of a cruising catamaran flipped over. Nobody has collected on the prize yet. We PERSONALLY know of many cats who have hit underwater objects (reef, rock, something) and punched a hole in their bow or somewhere and were still able to get to port afloat to make the repair because of the watertight bulkheads many cats are built with. Holing a mono would have you on the bottom in about 90 seconds.
True, it''s more sail by numbers than by feel and heel, but you just learn a different set of senses. If you exercise good seasmanship and heed the weather, you will be just as safe in a cat as in any well built off shore vessel. As with all production boats there are bluewater cats and not so bluewater cats, and that''s a whole different discussion. But do your homework as it seems you already are, GET OUT ON SOME CATS, sail them yourself rather than listening to idiots like us, and decide what feels right for you. The important thing is to get out there and cruise and give your children an amazing experience.
We''ll see you out there and speak incorrectly to each other while we sip margaritas at anchor in 3 feet of water


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Yeah, Even though I prefaced my post with a declaration of my intention, I pretty much knew that it would be ignored and that I''d take fire for asking a question based on a simple observation. I make an occasional error myself, but that was not my point. Have we become that thin-skinned?

Good luck and fair winds to you. I envy you; you will be out there sooner than I.

Jeff *C*


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

It is not all that hard to find pictures of large cruising cats that have turned over. Heck my Dad has half a dozen of the cruising cat that capsized while at anchor in the Bahamas and whose mast hit my father''s boat. The pictures were used as evidence in the suit to recover for the damage to my father''s boat. Granted a rather large wind came through the anchorage.

Then there were some very dramatic pictures of the 50 footer that capsized off of South Africa that were circulating on the net last year or so. That one actually ended up sinking so you could barely see the leeward hull. 

I don''t know where the info comes from but larger cats turtle or break up with fair regularity. There was one off the mouth of Delaware Bay not all that long ago.

Jeff


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## bob-m (Oct 30, 2002)

kimby

I think it is wonderful that you and your husband plan/dream of tasking your kids on what will surely be an adventure of a life time. My wife and I cruised fulltime for 12 years and met many "families" doing the same.

I would like to stress several points that will help make your dream/plan a reality. 

1- DO NOT take the advise of other dreamers. The reality of spending years cruising is far different from the dream. Listen to those that have been there.

2-The ONLY way to determine what type or size boat YOUR family will need is through experience. You will not get it from a book or from the advise of others. Example: If you have read any of the Sailnet archives, you will see that Jeff H is a wealth of information. He has forgotten more than I will ever know about yacht design and boat systems. BUT, after 12 years of cruising, my opinion of what makes a good cruising sailboat is totally different from Jeff''s. Neither one of us is right, nor are we wrong. EVERYONE uses their boat differently. What works for one family of 5 will not work for another family of 5. This doesn''t mean that you can''t learn from someone who is "living their dream", just keep in mind that it is THEIR dream. You MUST get experience on the water with your family to determine what works for you. After 12 years of cruising my wife and I still can not agree on what make the perfect boat for the 2 of us. 

3-Understand that your view of what is best for your family will be constantly changing. The more experience you have, the more your views will evolve.

Good luck with your plans!!! They are possible!!!


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## saltydawg (May 20, 2004)

CORRECTION: Ok, I got it wrong and I need to clarify. The reward was specifically for an overturned PROUT catamaran being offered by Prout (when they were in business). Chalk up the confision to pregnancy brain, sitting on a hot boat haveing false contractions can do that to you.
At any rate, the overall point is, be sure you hear opinions about cats from people who have sailed them at length and be sure to go out there yourself and test the waters and form your own opinion. BUt you knew that!


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## paulmcquillan (Jan 4, 2002)

There were a number of good suggestions as to first boats, plus the caveat that if your experience is minimal to get some hands on saiiing classes first. The charter compmanies are going to want to see the basic certifications before you take their boat anyhow. Sailing different types of boats is one of the best educations you can get.

I''d like to add one more suggestion. Go look at every boat you can that comes up for sail in your area. Look at one, buy a Don Casey book "Inspecting the aging sailboat". Then go look at a lot more. Deliberately look at different types to help you understand what you like, and then WHY you like it. 

Try and get to the point that you can look over a boat ,and from your notes give a good overview of what you saw for your spouse. 

If you really want to be happy for a long time with the first boat you buy, learn the sport to the point that you understand why the galley is almost always on the port side of the cabin.

Plus, shop Yachtworld like it''s a free education (it can be). 

Your first post gave the three kids ages as 14 to 9. You should be able to get significant and productive work out of all by that age. 

Our boys 15 to 7 are all productive... even # 3 son can do a half hour on the helm. And our 15 year old is awsome on the water. While we have high hopes for our youngest, his four year old judgement + 40 year old "can do" soul is a spooky combination. He has fun, but no driving for a while. 

Youth sailing sumer sessions in Sabot dinghys worked wonders (two week sessions start at age 8 out here).
Paul


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## henryk (Feb 14, 2006)

*I had a dream!*

I had a dream too.Me and my wife Mariola decided last Friday we are going too! You are not going to be alone out there Kimby! We have children too, 10 and 6 year old and kids took sailing lessons last year,and soon after bought in Vancouver a used dinghy, Tasar. Here in Kelowna we joined a sailing club and started to sail. I love it. But last week we said,the hell with it,life is to short and to beautiful .We are very excited about it . That is all what I can talk about these days . The bad side of it is, that we will have to wait at least a year or more by the time we learn sailing,doing maintenance etc . We will take the time and what ever it takes to achieve our goal.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

kimby said:


> My husband I and our three kids want to sail from Duncan bc not to far from victora bc. To the Caribbean and were the wind takes us we will be sailing at our own pace. We will be home schooling we are both going to be taking alot of sailing courses my husband knows more about sailing then I do. we will be living on our sail boat. this is not something we are doing right away but we have been doing alot of research. I have found sailnet and it is great. We seem to think we will need a big sail boat. we need help what kinds of boats would you pick there are alot of things we need to do before we do anything will we be able to sail a big sail boat just the two of us our kids will be 14 10 and 9. And if there is anything anyone would like to say to help us with this lifes dream feel free.


 Hey, I'm thinking maybe you could start to earn money and get higher-paying jobs only if you can, and start looking in catologues for sailboats, as well as classified ads, have you and your husband look at some, or go out to a boat dock and look to see if there are any for sale, and if you can have the kids agree on one of your selections, that'll be good also, and you'll have something to go by.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Only you can make it come true.Do a google search,type in northern magic,The steumers,a family with 3 boys,same age as yours,left ottawa 98 went round in 42ft steel ketch. Great website,strongly recomend you buy the book.They had very little exp,but they did thier homework,book will show you what to expect.The most fantastic, and fufilling exp of your life is there waitting,if you want it enough.Recomend steel const for safety reasons offshore.and do the research,preparations that others have recomended.i have a32ft steel sloop that i am refitting now.Hope to see you out there,best of luck..BILL S/V MISTLETOE, PORT HOPE ONT


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## joesailer1 (Jul 20, 2008)

*sailing*

pick up a 25 ft macgregor with water ballast for $3000 or so.
it has enough room to take the family
and if you run aground just pump the ballast and refloat her.
Also the kids should be learning to sail.
I learned when I was 8, be sure to include them in everything you do as it will be their home too.

Read the books, take the courses but there is no beter way to learn then to actually be on the water.

I recently had a guy on my boat who was book learned. He knew every line ,every term, the right way to leave the dock depending on wind direction.
What everything on the boar was for and how to work it.
We went out, raised the sail and he was lost! Had no idea what to do, what line to use and he immediately turned the greatest color green you have ever seen. He couldn't associate what he was seeing with what he learned in a book.
Moral of the story is GET OUT THERE. 
and to learn of the cruising life, pick up latts and atts magazine for info on the cruising life.

Oh one last thing. If your on a 4 year plan and the oldest is 14
HE'S NOT GOING TO WANT TO COME he will be 17 . New girlfriend, wants to graduate with his friends, he thinks its a stupid idea etc. you may want to shorten the plan a bit while he still wants to go.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Joe Welcome to sailnet....Ya might want to look at post dates befor posting ...you are responding to a initially 4 year old thread..


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## csaintg (Nov 12, 2009)

So, I would like to know how the dream turned out! What type of boat did you end up with? Are you still a family on the water?

How do you do laundry for a family of five when you are at sea?

What do you do for income? Do you have to be independantly wealthy before you can live this dream?

How do people feel about wooden boats vs fibreglass for ocean voyages?

Chris


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