# NJ Capsize



## lharmon (Jul 26, 2005)

Saw this in the Coast Guard News. Looks like he did good by having a survival suit and staying with the boat. May not of had an EPIRB or VHF he could get to. Must be a multi to stay upside down or else there was a terrible failure. Thought you might be interested and was wondering if anybody had any more news about the incident.



> OCEAN CITY, N.J. - A Good Samaritan and the Coast Guard rescued a sailor today after the sailboat he was on capsized Friday about eight miles southeast of Corsons Inlet, N.J.
> Rescued was Brian Mann, 57, of Edgartown, Mass.
> Mann was discovered in a survival suit, sitting atop his overturned sailboat by the pilot of the Pulp Fishing, a recreational fishing boat. The Good Samaritan contacted the Coast Guard at about 9 a.m. today, who launched rescue boat crews from Coast Guard Stations Great Egg and Townsend Inlet, N.J.
> The rescue crew from Station Great Egg arrived on scene, and took Mann back to their station in Ocean City, N.J., to awaiting EMS personnel.
> ...


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## merlin2375 (Jul 12, 2007)

Wow, that's quite a story. I wonder if he's on SailNet!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Looks like a Corsair 31 trimaran. You can see what is left of the boat in the video that is linked to the story *here*. It looks like his rigging gave out...and the mast went down, whether it was during the capsize, before it or afterwards, I can't say. If they righted the boat by pulling on it laterally, they may have dismasted here during the righting process. Most multihulls should be righted by pulling them bow over stern or stern over bow... not laterally.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

That is a very nice area with sand dunes near Ocean city, NJ. I could not find any more information about the sailor.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

If I remember right Friday was a pretty nasty day down there. Sounds like he was well prepared though. Happy ending.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Makes you wonder how he turned turtle. One of those multihull things?


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## merlin2375 (Jul 12, 2007)

/\/\ SailingDog says probably a corsair trimaran

he's probably not regretting spending the $$ on a survival suit though


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

*Sounds like he was well prepared though. Happy ending.* Unless you're the boat!

*Makes you wonder how he turned turtle. One of those multihull things?* The AC teams seem to do it on a pretty regular basis.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Here's a screen shot of the video showing his boat.










and a photo of another Corsair 31 trimaran


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## lharmon (Jul 26, 2005)

It's a real shame about the boat but I'm very glad no one got hurt. The guy did good to stay calm and with the boat. Thanks for digging up the additional info.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Wow!! This guy was at our marina a few days ago and I had a long chat with him. Glad he is OK. 
He was indeed in a Corsair and was a very experienced sailor. He sailed from Mass to BVI last fall offshore and mad it in SIX days...racing sails and totally rigged to single hand. He told me that the boat was not built to weather storms at sea so he relied heavily on a good wind forcast that let him out run anything nasty. He seemed like a very confident but quiet guy who had his own well thought out way for going to sea. That survival suit says he knew the risks and was prepared.

The coast guard is calling for at least two other sail boats here for the last few hours in a full blown gale and tornado warnings up. Crazy weather to be out in.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Chances are likely he got caught overcanvassed and over she went.  I'm a bit surprised he didn't have a drogue or something similar as a last-ditch storm survival measure.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Something strange about this capsize story. See this thread, last post:

Capsize off the New Jersey Coast - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Bill


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

hmm... that puts things in a very different light. I wonder what the real story is then?


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

btrayfors said:


> Something strange about this capsize story. See this thread, last post:
> 
> Capsize off the New Jersey Coast - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
> 
> Bill


I also found it suspicious that just hours after such gale force winds a very leasurly looking couple would go fishing  Glad I am not alone on that one. Weather on Sat. night was pretty nice down here (and appeared to be so all over the coast, I just glanced at the forecast then). Strange.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I live in southern New Jersey and while it did rain some and the wind blew a little, I didn't recall it being that terrible of a day.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

btrayfors said:


> Something strange about this capsize story. See this thread, last post:
> 
> Capsize off the New Jersey Coast - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
> 
> Bill


As I read this thread the capsize took place on Friday. The wind data you posted on CruisingWorld was for Saturday. Am I misreading one or the other?


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Must be something about Tri's. He and SD- seem to measure wind and waves much the same way!

YouTube - Trimaran Downwind Leg on August 18, 2007


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

teshannon,

You may be right about the date mixup. Re-reading everything, it does seem that the incident took place on Friday evening, the 9th.

However, it really doesn't change things much. The highest winds recorded by the AVAN4 data tower in Avalon, NJ...near his reported location...were in the range of 15-22 knots.

(wind in m/sec -- double for kts; time is UTC)
Quote
Year Mo Da Hr Min Dir Wd Gust
2008 05 09 23 00 10 5.1 9.3 
2008 05 09 21 59 20 6.2 9.8 
2008 05 09 20 59 20 7.2 10.8 
2008 05 09 19 59 20 6.2 10.8 
Unquote

Whatever.

Anyway, no question that it's blowing now and looks just terrible on the wind charts. See PassageWeather - Wind, Wave and Weather Forecasts for Sailors and Adventurers

Bill


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I wonder what the seas were on Friday? I'm in Longport NJ with my boat and supposedly they are running 7 to 15 feet today.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Wave height on Friday the 9th ranged between 1.2 and 1.7 meters at the sea buoy #44009 off of Delaware Bay.

Now, that buoy is reporting waves at 17-19' high.

Nasty, nasty :-(


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

btrayfors said:


> Wave height on Friday the 9th ranged between 1.2 and 1.7 meters at the sea buoy #44009 off of Delaware Bay.
> 
> Now, that buoy is reporting waves at 17-19' high.
> 
> Nasty, nasty :-(


Went around there a few weeks ago. Would not want to be doing that right now!


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

So it was a trimaran, not a multihull then


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

chucklesR said:


> So it was a trimaran, not a multihull then


There's a difference? . . .


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

To me, yes  The number of HULLS.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

TWO is always better than THREE . . . although NOT in more ways than ONE.


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## Triquetra (Jul 8, 2005)

sailingdog said:


> Chances are likely he got caught overcanvassed and over she went.  I'm a bit surprised he didn't have a drogue or something similar as a last-ditch storm survival measure.


I wonder if he was using an autopilot and a gust caught him unaware and away from the helm. I have had some moments of concern while single-handing my Corsair. I need to use the autopilot while doing some of the line handling. If he was pushing things and flying a hull, one gust in combination with an unfriendly wave could ruin your whole day.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

TrueBlue said:


> TWO is always better than THREE . . . although NOT in more ways than ONE.


What concers me is I've been around long enough that you and Chuckles are starting to make sense!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Given the reports of conditions that Btrayfors has come up with.... I don't see the boat getting overpowered all that easily....there just wasn't enough wind from what the buoys are reporting. 22 knots of wind isn't that much wind.



Triquetra said:


> I wonder if he was using an autopilot and a gust caught him unaware and away from the helm. I have had some moments of concern while single-handing my Corsair. I need to use the autopilot while doing some of the line handling. If he was pushing things and flying a hull, one gust in combination with an unfriendly wave could ruin your whole day.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

dog,

Yeah, maybe. I don't know much about that corsair trimaran, though.

I assume he was headed north, since he reportedly left Cape May in the morning and was capsized aways up the coast. Wind was NNE. If the true wind was gusting, say, 25 knots that could be something over 30 knots across the deck. Shouldn't that -- combined with the reported 'very steep sea' -- be enough to give that little tri some difficulty?

Bill


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

It depends on how much sail he had up. Can't tell from the photos if the boat was reefed or not, but if he was sailing close hauled in 25 knots of wind and heavy seas, yes, it might be enough to capsize the boat if he had too much sail up....especially if the boat was on autopilot and the autopilot made a course correction at the wrong moment.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

TrueBlue said:


> TWO is always better than THREE . . . although NOT in more ways than ONE.


One hull, two ama's. There are no tri-hull boats .


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

How about we just call the water wings.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

GRRR... You're on thin ice leadmine boy.



T34C said:


> How about we just call the water wings.


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

where are those 20kt numbers coming from? Here is the line from buoy data off shore at Delaware bay:


> 2008 05 09 05 50 160 5.0 6.0 1.0 7 4.6 MM 1007.6 15.2 13.6 14.8 MM -1.6 MM


this is about the strongest wind was on that day. 5 m/s with gusts up to 6 m/s. for those used to knots this means 9-11kts  And wave heights of 1 meter (that's 3 feet for metrically challenged).


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

brak,

See my post #19 above. The line you cited is for 05h 50m UTC or about 1:50AM on the 9th. In the data around the time of the capsize, you'll see that the winds were as high as 10.8 m/sec or about 22 knots.

These things are damnably hard to read, eh?

Bill


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

Well, my mistake  
However, at the time of capsize (6pm or so, presumably) it is still not too bad: 


> 2008 05 09 17 50 190 6.0 7.0 1.4 7 4.8 MM 997.5 15.8 13.8 15.5 MM -2.6 MM


13 kts gust. 4-5 ft waves.

The first time it registers 10m/s is at 10pm on Friday, by which time, presumably, this had already happened. This is from an offshore buoy.

Buoys closer to shore like this: http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/data/realtime2/AVAN4.txt and http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/data/realtime2/CMAN4.txt have nothing even close to that.

I suppose it could have been a very localized thunderstorm or some such. Strange nevertheless.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The weather was a little on the cool side for a localized thunderstorm, which generally requires a bit more heat to create them.


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## brak (Jan 5, 2007)

Well, I am just giving this story a benefit of the doubt. As it stands, it looks like a capsize in perfect weather which is very unusual.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> GRRR... You're on thin ice leadmine boy.


I may have a "leadmine" but there are not many reports in the news of them turning turtle on a perfectly nice sailing day....Mr. Twitchy Boat!


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## bruceyp (Aug 4, 2006)

I think it was the butler in the pantry with the winch handle!


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Maybe we should wait for some word from the sailor himself, who sounds from the banter so far like an experienced, well-equipped and presumably level-headed guy. 

Me, I prefer vessels that seek to put the mast (or, if the mast is already history, then the deck) back towards the sky when it happens momentarily to be pointing towards the ocean floor. But that's just me..


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

On Sunday May 11, a woman fell overboard on a cruise ship just outside Atlantic City.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Freesail99 said:


> On Sunday May 11, a woman fell overboard on a cruise ship just outside Atlantic City.


Paul,
I saw that. Unfortunately she'll probably come ashore one of these days near us.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

Brac,

The times given are in UTC (GMT). You need to deduct 4 hours to get EDT.

So, the time you mentioned (10pm UTC) was, indeed, the reported time of capsize. 

And, as we've all noted before, things were apparently not too bad.

I don't know multihulls at all, so I can't speculate what happened. A friend with a large cat told me today that the Corsair is a very light boat. We need to hear from the sailor himself.

I do know that I've been in exactly that place a number of times, and it can get choppy and nasty off the NJ coast, even for a well found and larger monohull.

Bill


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

FWIW...the boat was indeed VERY light and just a light pull on his docklines sent the boat scooting. He was powered by a small outboard. My guess is that he had lots of sail up and was hit by a gust and went over quickly.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The Corsair 31 is probably 500 lbs. lighter than my Telstar 28, and has 650 sq. ft. of sail area, versus the 430 sq. ft. on my boat... Yeah, they're pretty light, and pretty overcanvassed.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

Does anyone think he could have hit something? 

Punched a hole in one of the floatie thingies? (amas or whatever?)

It seems like something happened that he's kinda ashamed to admit. (No face on the interview etc.) Maybe he ran into something?

Dunno.. just thinking outloud on a public forum...(good idea craig)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Craigtoo-

That's definitely a possibility, given how one ama is floating and the other appears submerged.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Guys,

At the risk of repeating myself, we don't know what happened. The one guy who does is the guy who was out there and who (thank God) is still with us, and still "compos mentis", so maybe he should be the one to tell us what did or didn't happen. He sounds like someone with experience, so if anyone knows how to contact him, he may quite possibly tell us what took place, in the interest of preventing a reoccurrance.

'Til then, I think we're swatting at flies..


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

nolatom said:


> Guys,
> 
> At the risk of repeating myself, we don't know what happened. The one guy who does is the guy who was out there and who (thank God) is still with us, and still "compos mentis", so maybe he should be the one to tell us what did or didn't happen. He sounds like someone with experience, so if anyone knows how to contact him, he may quite possibly tell us what took place, in the interest of preventing a reoccurrance.
> 
> 'Til then, I think we're swatting at flies..


Yes! I agree.... Swatting at flies...it's fun to discuss the possibilities though.

Sounds like a totally competent sailor... that for me is the interest. What the heck happened? Thank GOD he's still among us. Yes...!

I can probably learn something just from the discussion!


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## Triquetra (Jul 8, 2005)

sailingdog said:


> Craigtoo-
> 
> That's definitely a possibility, given how one ama is floating and the other appears submerged.


I think that it is unlikely that he hit something, because Corsair amas have 3 sections, and unless he penetrated the center chamber (the larger one) it would be unlikely to have sunk as SD points out from the photo. They may have flooded it by opening the hatch to help right the boat. Somone mentioned after seeing the damage to the mast and rigging, that the boat was possibly righted abeam rather than bow over stern, causing that damage, and flooding an ama is consistent with that assessment.

I have a vested interest in the "fly swatting", since I have a Corsair and want to avoid being another Corsair that "turned turtle".


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

God had very little to do with it. The guy is alive and has learned some incredible lessons. Winds, waves and currents were his allies (or enemies) and he survived by staying with his upturned multi-hull boat (2 amas, 1 hull and who knows how many ways it could have happened). He was one lucky son of a bytch. 
Live long and prosper folks.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

craigtoo said:


> Punched a hole in one of the floatie thingies? (amas or whatever?)


Damn it man! They're water wings!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Triquetra-

It was me that suggested that they may have righted the boat by turning it ama over hull, and flooding the ama might be consistent with that...but we don't know if the ama was indeed flooded or not, and due to the mechanics involved, I seriously doubt it was flooded intentionally. I am aware that the amas are separated into three compartments on the Corsairs, having sailed on them a fair bit, and having worked on a few...

*However, flooding the ama to right the trimaran would require someone going into the water to open the hatches on it, and the amas would still be airlocked-unless they were holed...so you'd actually have to pump the air out and water in.*



Triquetra said:


> I think that it is unlikely that he hit something, because Corsair amas have 3 sections, and unless he penetrated the center chamber (the larger one) it would be unlikely to have sunk as SD points out from the photo. They may have flooded it by opening the hatch to help right the boat. Somone mentioned after seeing the damage to the mast and rigging, that the boat was possibly righted abeam rather than bow over stern, causing that damage, and flooding an ama is consistent with that assessment.
> 
> I have a vested interest in the "fly swatting", since I have a Corsair and want to avoid being another Corsair that "turned turtle".


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## Triquetra (Jul 8, 2005)

sailingdog said:


> Triquetra-
> 
> *However, flooding the ama to right the trimaran would require someone going into the water to open the hatches on it, and the amas would still be airlocked-unless they were holed...so you'd actually have to pump the air out and water in.*


Good point. I am just hoping that it is not so easy to flip one, particularly since I have seen other reports of them flipping during races, though I met some of the crew on on one of those, and I know that they push it when racing by "flying one and sometimes 2 hulls," as I was told. This person told me that if when sailing one of the amas completely submerges, you have to worry about flipping. He had my 36 with one ama at about 3 feet out of the water, which was a bit unnerving for me at the time (having just gotten the boat). I guess that we'll just have to wait and see what happened.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A Corsair 36 will be a bit harder to flip, since it is larger... and the stability geometrically with the water line IIRC.


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

T34C said:


> Damn it man! They're water wings!!


Repeating to myself..

"Water Wings...Water Wings....Water Wings...."

  

I'm just so not up on the technical terms....!!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

T34C, Craigtoo...

To quote our famed moderator of the exploding bbq grill... 
*
 BITE ME.... *


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Water wings? Aren't those the things that kids use in pools?


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> T34C, Craigtoo...
> 
> To quote our famed moderator of the exploding bbq grill...
> *
> BITE ME.... *


Truth can be soooo painful at times.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

CalebD said:


> Water wings? Aren't those the things that kids use in pools?


Yep, you got it!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

there is one where I live..never gets out..the sea's allways rough on it...either too much wind or too much sea..sails 3 times a year, in the summer... It digs under the waves, and almost capsized once.

the guy's seling it..he hates it..and we're talking about a guy that sailed Tronados for 20 years, not a sailnet first time Joe...

He says its like riding a motorcycle with a side car...never turns right to the side of the side car...

No one wants to buy it...sad but true


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Giulietta said:


> there is one where I live..never gets out..the sea's allways rough on it...either too much wind or too much sea..sails 3 times a year, in the summer... It digs under the waves, and almost capsized once.
> 
> the guy's seling it..he hates it..and we're talking about a guy that sailed Tronados for 20 years, not a sailnet first time Joe...
> 
> ...


Not to heap it on, but I think I've previously mentioned here that a number of years ago we rendered assistance to an F-27 that had pitch-poled on Chesapeake Bay during an overnight race. It was blowing pretty good that night, they were running before a strong norther and buried a bow. No injuries, everyone taken off safely by the Coast Guard.

Fun looking boats, but it's not only on the open ocean that you have to be cautious...


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## Fedesail (Aug 30, 2010)

Hi, 

I was walking around Bordeira Beach (Carrapateira, Portugal) at low tide last week, when I saw a piece of a boat hull with part of its name "... Flyer" and the legend "Edgartown" printed on it.

There was something eerie about it so after coming back home I googled a bit to found out that a Brian Mann of Edgartown owned a boat with the name "High Flyer", and then I came across this post and also across (mvgazette.com/article.php?25841) where -apparently- they describe the whole story.

Unfortunately I´m quite broke and I´m not looking forward to subscribe to the Vineyard Gazzette just to read this one (as a resident in Spain I don´t find it useful enough...), but I'll appreciate if someone can tell me more about it.

Best regards,


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