# Unfamiliar Brand



## Acameronp (Sep 29, 2013)

Is anyone familiar with the Scheel Center Cockpits? I am having a hard time finding any reviews on them. Opinions please....


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Henry Scheel was a designer probably better known for the 'Scheel Keel' than the boats he designed. Looks like he was connected to Morgan Yachts in the 70s/80s

More info which you may have seen:

Sailboat designs of Henry Scheel by year


----------



## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Could be refering to a Scheel keel, I'm not familiar with any boat builders by that name


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Some years ago saw a 45 done by him. Chatted up the owner. He loved his boat. Think it was in duck harbor.


----------



## Acameronp (Sep 29, 2013)

There is one for sale on Yachtworld that looks interesting. I like the lines and the price is certainly right ( I think) but I cant seem to find any opinions about the boats.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I don't think there ever was a Scheel builder. But Henry Scheel worked at S&S fore years before going out on his own. He was a very talented designer with a good eye. I was never crazy about the Scheel keel but it did do the job of lowering the VCG on a shoal draft keel. Morgan built a series of Scheel boats called the Morgan 452. It's a nice looking center cockpit boat.


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

A Tartan 372 has one of his keels as a mainstream example


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

This should give you the basic details, looks to be basically a custom boat only 6 made so I doubt you will find much info, and since they were made in the early 70's perhaps they are all still with older owners that don't put there entire life on line?

SCHEEL 45 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

This was in the notes, so perhaps you might find more luck with finding info on the Morgans.

Six Scheel 45's were designed and built by Henry Scheel in Rockland, Maine. In later years this design was built by Morgan Yachts as the Morgan 461 and 462.

I would not be surprised if this one did not have better quality interior than the Morgans. I would not expect much performance with that shallow draft and S/A of 12.21. Looks like a nice motor sailor though, as it sure looks comfortable inside!

Looking at the layout on sailboat data, I wonder if it was not meant for the charter trade? With the bunks in the aft cabin, it looks like it was trying to fit in as many berths as they could.

If you are looking at the one in Rockport check out the hours on that motor, impressive, but I can't imagine it has much life left. 8732 hours! (I know they can go on for almost ever)


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks for jogging my memory Paul. I do recall now that Henry tried building those boats himself briefly.

8,732 engine hours? Yow. Might be an indicator of how the boat sails.


----------



## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

bobperry said:


> I don't think there ever was a Scheel builder. But Henry Scheel worked at S&S fore years before going out on his own. He was a very talented designer with a good eye. I was never crazy about the Scheel keel but it did do the job of lowering the VCG on a shoal draft keel. Morgan built a series of Scheel boats called the Morgan 452. It's a nice looking center cockpit boat.


Bob,
How was the Scheel keel supposed to work? I mean, what was it supposed to do the just a stubby keel would not? My Nonsuch has a shoal keel which I have been told by some is a Scheel keel. But I don't know if that is true or if Hinterhoeller used a Scheel-like keel on their shoal draft. How would I tell?


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Jimi:
I'd have to see a photo to tell what your keel was. I don't think Mark used the Scheel keel but he could have designed a "Scheelish" keel. Mark isn't the type to steal another designer's idea.

The actual patented Scheel keel is marked by a wide, inverted, mushroom like tip with hard edges running fore and aft. The idea was two fold. One was to get the mass of the ballast low to compensate for the shoal draft while preserving the stability of the boat. The other was to have the "mushroom" edge provide some kind of end plate effect to keep the flow attached to the fin portion of the keel to compensate for the lack of aspect ratio. I think both ideas worked, to an extent. But anytime you "deface" a nice fin with a big lump that cuts into the clean span of the keel you are giving up lift and increasing frontal area. To Henry's credit I think he did start a push for other designers to play with the ideas he was working with. Prior to the Scheel keel I don't recall any other keels designed to work that way. Although there were certainly many various flavors of bulbed keels before the Scheel keel. They generally did not involve any effort to provide end plating though.

That's keel history as I remember it. I could be wrong. Again.

Publish a pic of your keel if you have one. Could be the term "Scheel keel"was just a convenient, generic way of saying the keel was Sheeelish.


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

I think it in some places it has become a term for any shallow draft keel. Even if it is not related to one of his designs. 

I will say the boat in question looks like a nice place to live. Seems a lot of the Morgan versions have traveled pretty far, for what ever that is worth.


----------



## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

bobperry said:


> Jimi:
> I'd have to see a photo to tell what your keel was. I don't think Mark used the Scheel keel but he could have designed a "Scheelish" keel. Mark isn't the type to steal another designer's idea.
> 
> Publish a pic of your keel if you have one. Could be the term "Scheel keel"was just a convenient, generic way of saying the keel was Sheeelish.


Bob,
I have two photos of the keel. (They are from my 26, but my current 30 has the same keel configuration.) The bottom of the keel is flat, like an iron. Viewed from the bow or stern, the keel has an hour glass shape in that it is narrow in the middle and flares out at the bottom. So, is this "Scheelish" or something else.
Many thanks,
Jim


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Jimi:
Pretty sure you have a "Scheelish" keel.
Why don't you call Mark Ellis and ask him?


----------



## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

Here is some info on Henry Scheel, the Scheel Boatworks, and the Scheel keel:From Whence We Came - Issue 102 | Maine Boats Homes & Harbors

Jiminri: Your keel does not look like Scheel keel, which had winglets to create an endplate effect. As I recall, Steve Killing and Douglas Hunter cover this well in the book, Yacht Design Explained

The Schell keel created a huge stir when Austrailia won the 1983 America's Cup with a boat with a Scheel keel. Dr. Stuart Walker Stuart H. Walker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, who covered the America's Cup for ESPN, told me that from above in a helicopter it was clear that when going to windward the Aussie boat didn't pitch and roll as much as its American counterpart. Dr. Walker said that the elipse described by the tip of Aussie boat's mast was much small than that of the American boat, therefore, the trim of sails more frequently accurate.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Hudsonian said:


> Here is some info on Henry Scheel, the Scheel Boatworks, and the Scheel keel:From Whence We Came - Issue 102 | Maine Boats Homes & Harbors
> 
> Jiminri: Your keel does not look like Scheel keel, which had winglets to create an endplate effect. As I recall, Steve Killing and Douglas Hunter cover this well in the book, Yacht Design Explained
> 
> The Schell keel created a huge stir when Austrailia won the 1983 America's Cup with a boat with a Scheel keel. Dr. Stuart Walker Stuart H. Walker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, who covered the America's Cup for ESPN, told me that from above in a helicopter it was clear that when going to windward the Aussie boat didn't pitch and roll as much as its American counterpart. Dr. Walker said that the elipse described by the tip of Aussie boat's mast was much small than that of the American boat, therefore, the trim of sails more frequently accurate.


I'm afraid you're mistaken, Hudson..

The Aussie AC win was certainly not a Scheel keel.. it was one of the first 'wing' keels, Scheel used an inverted anvil shape rather than wings; very much like the photos posted above....

From your link above :


> Scheel Keel was a precursor to the famed winged keel used by the Australians to win the America's Cup.


... but I'd suggest even that's a bit of a stretch...


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Yeah, I have to go with Faster here. It's a biiiiig stretch to go from the Scheel keel to Ben Lexcen's 12 meter, inverted planform, winged keel. Those wings were there to smooth out the tip vortex generated by having such a long tip chord. Had the planform not been inverted the wings would probably not have been needed.


----------



## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

Thanks for straightening me out on this. Clearly I misremembered.


----------



## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

There is a Charley Morgan boat using the Scheel keel that I've been keeping an eye on since it hit the water in San Diego. It's a Compac 35 that I believe is now on the market from the second owner. It was their "Show" boat for the West Coast I think and appears nicely turned out. I think the keel decreased it's desirability here because shoal draft is not really an advantage and any additional windward ability is.
2006 Com-Pac 35 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
Here's the only pictures I could find of the keel


----------



## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

I found the patent of the Scheel keel with a quick internet search. Reviewing it reminded me of Jonathan Swift's assertion that Irish women had received special papal dispensation to have their legs installed upside down so they were thicker at the bottom than at the top.


----------



## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Hud:
Can you post a pic of the keel from the patent document? I'd like to see that. We could all learn something.


----------



## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

Here's an image from Scheel's patent application.


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Jiminri.. any chance of scanning a higher resolution image? I've blown yours up but it's pretty fuzzy...


----------



## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

Faster said:


> Jiminri.. any chance of scanning a higher resolution image? I've blown yours up but it's pretty fuzzy...


How's this?


----------



## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Jiminri said:


> How's this?


Now you're talkin' !! Thanks.


----------



## Jiminri (Aug 26, 2012)

From the patent abstract:

"A sailboat keel, especially for shoal draft sailboats, which reduces turbulence and generated vortices and increases laminar flow along the hull and keel, which comprises...the body portion extending downwardly from the upper portion, the body portion flaring outwardly so as to have a maximum width at its plane of intersection with the keel bottom which is preferably smoothly curved."

And from the summary:
"The object is to provide a simple, easy to construct...keel which furnishes the necessary resistance to side forces, which also produces a flow pattern characterized by a decreased amount of of turbulent flow and generated vortices, resulting in increased speed of the sailboat when on the wind, and which manifests these advantages dramatically when applied to shoal draft sailboats.

The keel on my boat looks A LOT like these drawings, except I believe the bottom of the keel is flat instead of being "preferably smoothly curved." So, I am convinced it is Scheel-like. Whether it does anything that a Scheel keel is claimed to do, I have no idea.


----------



## ChuckInFl (Nov 24, 2020)

Jiminri said:


> From the patent abstract:
> 
> "A sailboat keel, especially for shoal draft sailboats, which reduces turbulence and generated vortices and increases laminar flow along the hull and keel, which comprises...the body portion extending downwardly from the upper portion, the body portion flaring outwardly so as to have a maximum width at its plane of intersection with the keel bottom which is preferably smoothly curved."
> 
> ...


----------



## ChuckInFl (Nov 24, 2020)

The Scheel 45 I'm looking at right now of course has the keel the builder designed, has a flat bottom. The flat bottom must have been a variation of the original.
He designed and built a hell of a beautiful well thought out boat. So many details to make life easier. Morgan built this boat as well under the models 461/462 Morgan. I've not seen one yet but understand they're also well built, all of course are world travelers.
The Scheel has the 80hp Ford Leman, one of the most reliable and fuel sipping motors built. Had a friend tell me his ultra high hour Leman his Trawler had,
he'd planned to rebuild when he got the boat over a decade ago, he's rebuilt/replaced everything on the engine but didn't crack open the engine and it still runs hull speed using a touch less than a gal per hour and not enough oil to ever need any added between oil change.


----------



## Cole Albon (Feb 19, 2021)

Acameronp said:


> Is anyone familiar with the Scheel Center Cockpits? I am having a hard time finding any reviews on them. Opinions please....


review scheel 45 for 39K (already sold)


----------



## ChuckInFl (Nov 24, 2020)

Acameronp said:


> Is anyone familiar with the Scheel Center Cockpits? I am having a hard time finding any reviews on them. Opinions please....


There's a Scheels review by a man called Captain Q on youtube he did not long ago. Go to YouTube and search Captain Q and Scheel it'll come right up. The boat I saw reviewed was strange in that it didn't have the Scheel Keel but the boat was very nicely built and laid out. I've found many topics and items by searching YouTube, then you get the benefit of a video instead of just a written description or still photos. Good luck


----------

