# Intro and Advice Sought



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi,

We are a family of four with kids 10b and 9g. We have been planning for several years to cash out and cruise for at least a year. Originally, we had planned on leaving in early 2009. Circumstances have changed and we find ourselves with the opportunity to set sail next winter (2007). We currently live the mountains of Western North Carolina. I grew up in the Panama Canal Zone and crewed a bit. I am not an accomplished sailor. We have owned several small sailboats (a laser and a lonestar 16) and a 20' motorboat that we spent a lot of nights on. We have sailed together as a family from Nassau to Staniel Cay and back. The kids are great around the water. My wife was a bit claustrophobic in the forward berth. 

I need advice about the following things:

Buying a boat - Our budget for a boat tops out at $140k with the ideal being in the 100k range. We would prefer a catamaran for several reasons but a monohull that provides separate "staterooms" for the kids would work. Also, a master/owners stateroom that would be airy and roomy. Design and soundness far outweighs luxury. We have looked at Hardins and like the design. Where can I find that great family cruiser?

Kids education - We've heard about calvert but would welcome alternatives. I'd love to find a good website or discussion with families that are about to, are currently, and have cruised.

Pet on board - Guffey is a 85lb 2 year old yellow lab. Are there any restrictions about pets entering international ports? I've read plenty of articles about "boat-training" dogs but any additional advice would be greatly appreciated.

I have a million other questions but those are the big three right now. I know that there are questions that I haven't even thought about asking. My wife and I are planning on getting instruction from a reputable source. Advice on a good school for couples/families would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Steve T
Asheville, NC


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

www.noonsite.com is a good reference for various countries and the laws therein, with regards to the cruising sailor.

For education, there are some other recommendations, but I'd have to look them up.

A catamaran like a PDQ 34, Prout Snowgoose, Maine Cat 30, Tom Cat 30 or Gemini 105 would give you three cabins _(at least most of them are three cabin layouts)_, and give you a lot of room, and are in that budget range. See this page here for some* listings. *Living aboard a cat can be easier for the wife and kids, since you don't live life at a 15-20˚ tilt on longer passages... and at anchor, the size is nice, as it lets you spread out.

You don't say where you want to cruise. That would influence what boats would be recommended. I know that Geminis, Prouts, and PDQ's have crossed the oceans, but I wouldn't recommend them if you were planning on doing mostly bluewater sailing. They're a bit small as cats go for that type of work.

I would highly recommend that you set aside about 10-20% of your boat buying budget for upgrades, repairs and re-fitting of what ever boat you buy. I have yet to see anyone buy a boat that was "perfect" for them, and didn't need some changes-this includes new ones.

I would also recommend that you take at least the ASA 101-105 courses for you and your wife, given your relative inexperience.

If you have questions on multihulls, please feel free to PM me... Most of the sailors here are monohull sailors...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks Sailingdog...

We're planning on hopping down the East Coast to the Keys and spend time in the Everglades/Naples, Fl area. Then we'd like to island hop through the Caribbean. We'd like to do some service projects in the Grenadines, Panama, Guatemala, and Honduras. There is a possibility that we'd cross the Atlantic to Senegal, West Africa where my wife was in the Peace Corp. If we did that we'd also like to spend some time exploring the Med. 

We are not seeking constant long passages. We'd like to spend more time anchored and exploring.



Thanks,

Steve


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

A catamaran would make an excellent platform for that... and the shallow draft opens up more anchorages than a deeper draft vessel would have. Bluewater passages are possible in many catamarans, and I know that Prouts, PDQs, and Geminis have all done trans-Atlantic passages.

The one major caveat with all multihulls is that you can't _"fill" _up all the available space. Multihulls are somewhat weight sensitive, and most should be kept as light as possible... this is more true for trimarans, which generally are more weight sensitive than catamarans.

A good book to read would be Chris White's The Cruising Multihull. Although this book is getting a bit long in tooth, it does have some excellent information in it. Another good book is Thomas Firth Jones's Multihull Voyaging. This too is getting a bit long in tooth... but is also a pretty good read, but less technically deep than White's book.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

So, generally speaking, what kind of length range should I be looking for. We would prefer a cat for the very reasons that you pointed out: shallow draft, level sailing, space, layout, etc. We also like the idea of private and common areas. 

As always, Thanks!

S


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The smallest cat that I saw listed in the* link *in my previous post was a Catalac 9m, and the largest was probably the Prout Snowgoose, respectively 29.5' to 37'. The Gemini is about 33.5' or a bit shorter, depending on the model.

The draft on most of these boats is in the neighborhood of 18-24" with the centerboard or daggerboard up, and 4-5' with the boards down.

The Catalac and Prout catamarans are going to be a bit older than the Geminis and PDQs, which are still being made IIRC.

Sailing a mulithull is a bit different in subtle ways from sailing a monohull. For instance, in a monohull, you generally reef the sails for the average wind speed and let the boat handle the gusts... on a multihull, you reef for the gusts and let the boat deal with the average winds. Multihulls, if kept light, tend to accelerate far better than monohulls, as they have significantly less inertia-not having heavy ballast. Conversely, they tend to slow down faster than monohulls, having less inertia.

If you want to see some video of a multihull in action, in fairly stiff winds and seas... go here.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> If you want to see some video of a multihull in action, in fairly stiff winds and seas... go here.


Nice clip, SD. I am trying to improve my eye for estimating sea state and wind speed. because my "poop deck" is now five feet above the water, and I'm still getting used to it. Were those about 4 foot waves and 18 knots at first, and then rising to 5.5-6 foot waves and 22-24 in the gusts? The body of water looked at least partly enclosed, so it was hard to estimate.

Lake Ontario waves are typically squared off unless you get 200 miles of fetch out of the northeast-to-east, which isn't as common. Then you get longer, more sea-like wave trains...but they don't last long.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Valiente said:


> Nice clip, SD. I am trying to improve my eye for estimating sea state and wind speed. because my "poop deck" is now five feet above the water, and I'm still getting used to it. Were those about 4 foot waves and 18 knots at first, and then rising to 5.5-6 foot waves and 22-24 in the gusts? The body of water looked at least partly enclosed, so it was hard to estimate.
> 
> Lake Ontario waves are typically squared off unless you get 200 miles of fetch out of the northeast-to-east, which isn't as common. Then you get longer, more sea-like wave trains...but they don't last long.


Actually, the camera, both still and video, tend to flatten the seas a bit.

At the beginning of the video it is about 5-7' seas with 20 knots of wind and gusts up to about 28 knots. Near the end of the video it was probably 6-8' seas with 25 knots of wind and gusts up to about 35 knots... by the end of the afternoon, there were the occasional 9-12' seas with 28 knots and gusts past 35 knots. When the hat was lost, the boat was doing about 12 knots.

The area is not enclosed, it is Buzzards Bay, just north of the Elizabeth Island chains. See this webpage for where it is.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Dawg...
* At the beginning of the video it is about 5-7' seas with 20 knots of wind and gusts up to about 28 knots. *

Sure doesn't look that rough. Only occasional whitecaps would mean around 15Kt. ....were you reading apparent wind???
Looks like a fun time was had by all!

*Triton.*..welcome to the board. I deleted your other duplicate thread rather than move it as there was no content to the replies you got. Newbies get lots of leeway here so no worries! I don't know squat about catamarans but if you end up going the monohull route and can adjust your plans to NOT cross the atlantic...(maybe do the whole caribbean circle or go through the canal and up the coast?)...then I think one of the larger Beneteau 3 cabin models out of one of the charter services can fit your needs, budget and be capable of doing the trip. Just need a really good survey for out of charter boats. Another alternative since the kids are still young is to get a center cockpit boat for privacy and de-construct the V berth into split single berth cabins for the kids. Something like an Irwin38-44 would work for that or perhaps a Morgan.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The Prout Snowgoose is a pretty good candidate for an Atlantic crossing, considering that is how they get to the US normally. IIRC, they were built in France, but don't tell Giulietta that...he'lll start foaming at the mouth. 

Cam- 

I'm basing the wave heights and winds on what NOAA and other sailors were telling me... I'm not great at estimating the wave heights.... really bad at it in fact.. In any case, it was a really good day of sailing. My favorite part of the day was when one of my marina neighbors said, "You know that there was a small craft advisory today". I said, "yes, why" and he replied, "You know your boat is technically a small craft". I had to smile and say, "But we had to go out, the weather was so perfect for sailing". Of course, the guy talking to me didn't go out since he has a powerboat. LOL


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Dawg...yep it is amazing how many people go to their boats on a weekend and never leave the dock cause they see some whitecaps. 
It is really hard to judge wave height in a video and it usually looks a lot less than it is..and a swell can come from far away and be big even on a windlass day. The surface of the water though is a pretty good indicator which is why I gave the estimate that I did. Here's a link to a pretty good description of what you see at various wind speeds. And of course...heading into a 10 knot wind at 10 knots makes it FEEL like 20 knots. 
http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/pqr/info/pdf/beaufort.pdf


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One of the problems on my boat is the dodger blocks so much of the wind, that it is often hard to figure out how bad it really is... first time I took her out single handed, I froze my butt off... since it seemed okay on the way out... but on the way back, which was downwind... the wind came straight over the stern and I wasn't dressed warmly enough... Didn't have the autopilot setup yet, so getting the polar fleece out from the cabin wasn't really possible... LOL...learned my lesson that day.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

I usually use the same wave measuring device for sailing that I use surfing, my body. I am 6'. When I surf, I look back at the wave as I make a bottom turn in the trough. If the crest of the wave is at my head, its about six feet. Thats a very general rule, there are lots of variables. In the cockpit of my boat, I am about two feet (rough estimate) above the water. When you are in the trough of a wave, standing up can give you a rough idea of wave height compared with your height. If the crest of the wave is not at my chest height, (assuming I am flat and not on an incline) the waves are not six feet. Anyway just a rough estimate.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Bestfriend-

The problem with that is the wave period was short enough that we really weren't in the troughs all that much... and multihulls tend to float pretty high since they have very little mass compared to a monohull of the same size and tend to stay atop the crests, having no ballast to hold them down. So you end up looking down at the troughs more than anything else...


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

good point. Nice video, by the way. who lost the hat? gotta add that to the "things the sea has taken" thread. are you behind the camera? no wait, that must be you in the red hat. Looks like you got some good speed going.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*thanks*

Camaraderie,

Thanks for the leeway...I really didn't know any better. BTW, TNT is a combination of my and my wifes' last names. I think I've learned more in the last 3-4 hours of reading posts on here than I have in a couple of months of research elsewhere. I appreciate the effort that it must take to make it happen.

Sailingdog,

My wife is very excited to find that multihulls are back within our price range. I was mislead into thinking that we needed to find a boat that was at minimum 40'. I'll check out the books that you recommended.

Thanks!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Glad to help... if you have any other questions, let me know.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Actually, the camera, both still and video, tend to flatten the seas a bit.
> 
> At the beginning of the video it is about 5-7' seas with 20 knots of wind and gusts up to about 28 knots. Near the end of the video it was probably 6-8' seas with 25 knots of wind and gusts up to about 35 knots... by the end of the afternoon, there were the occasional 9-12' seas with 28 knots and gusts past 35 knots. When the hat was lost, the boat was doing about 12 knots.


Thanks. I could tell from the mic sound that the wind was blowing, but sound on a boat can be deceiving. All in all, I am glad I underestimated the conditions by 10-20%, because people tend to overestimate, don't they? You're right about the foreshortening effect of the lens, however. Those are near-perfect conditions for my taste...at least the 25 knots and 7 feet of seas...really gets the boat going without things getting too dangerous on a well-found boat. You can get into a groove of the occasional wake-up splash and in some conditions at that speed I've briefly surfed...which my older boat won't do normally.

Strangely, I frequently find myself with little company in those conditions on my 33 footer. Cruisers of the weekender variety find those waves upset the cracker tray, and racers will go out in far worse, but not if it's not race night!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Valiente said:


> Thanks. I could tell from the mic sound that the wind was blowing, but sound on a boat can be deceiving. All in all, I am glad I underestimated the conditions by 10-20%, because people tend to overestimate, don't they? You're right about the foreshortening effect of the lens, however. Those are near-perfect conditions for my taste...at least the 25 knots and 7 feet of seas...really gets the boat going without things getting too dangerous on a well-found boat. You can get into a groove of the occasional wake-up splash and in some conditions at that speed I've briefly surfed...which my older boat won't do normally.
> 
> Strangely, I frequently find myself with little company in those conditions on my 33 footer. Cruisers of the weekender variety find those waves upset the cracker tray, and racers will go out in far worse, but not if it's not race night!


I agree that those were near perfect conditions in my tastes for sailing too. As you can see, we were pretty comfy in those conditions... no one felt the need to wear either a PFD or safety harness... it wasn't until we started the upwind beat that we all got in to our foulies... the upwind beat was brutally wet...  Mind you, if I were singlehanding in those same conditions or sailing with a less experienced crew, I would have had everyone in PFDs and with safety harnesses... as I wouldn't like to try a MOB in those conditions, with a boat moving at 12 knots.

One reason I like those conditions so much is that it does tend to keep the power boaters in the marinas...  and leaves the bay to the few sailboats willing to brave those conditions.  I think we saw a total of four other sailboats that day... The cracker tray was only upset by the up-and-down motion of the boat... the boat was sailing about 5˚ of heel most of the time. Very pleasant...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

TNT,

Well, here comes the dissenting opinion. 

If you are thinking about heading south to Florida and doing it in a multihull, you better start checking where you are going to park that battleship. SD may know better about up north, but finding a nice slip for a monohull (even more so for a multihull) is very difficult down south. If you come around the the SW side, it really gets interesting. Most slips are made for monos, not multis. You will find yourself with no way to park that thing most of the time and you will be limited to mooring fields (at best) or anchoring out (most likely). Now this may not seem like too bad of a thing (as I much prefer anchoring to crappy marinas) but there will be MANY times you wat to tie up and go to shore for a while (or days) to see the sights and get free of the boat. When you find out the limited slips where you can do that and even more so the extraordinary prices they are going to charge you (maybe twice a mono... they are crooks), you will not be happy.

I personally would also forget about crossing the Atlantic. That is not something a newby should take on, especially with kids. I would focus on the islands and Fl and the surrounding. That will be more than you can see in 5-10 years, much less one. 

My opinion is similair to Cam's, a production, coastal cruiser. It is much more volumous than a passagemaking boat, will be newer, and makes a nice home for liveaboard. The comment about the 40 is probably not far off for a monohull. I like many of the benes and Jeauneaus. I love Catalinas (duh). We lived on a 380 with Chase and 2 dogs and are soon to ship back off with Glen too on a Catalina 400. You can find ways to get around the 3 stateroom problem in my opinion, even at that age. We seperate out the V on our 400 so each has their space (which is important). I can offer many more thoughts on cruising with kids too, if you are interested.

The dog will be an issue. I will be honest. Without regurgitating a bunch of old threads, you will be a bit limited to the Bahamas & US (though you can cruise further south, it will be irritating). However, you better start getting used to cleaning up 5 pound piles of crap of the deck (hopefully the deck). It can be done, and we do it, but you will get frustrated many times having to haul that dog to the shore (hopefully, where available) in a blinding rainstorm so he doesn't befoul the boat and stink it up.

I personally am not against cats. We seriously looked at a Lagoon 440. I think Privelege makes a fine cat too. I would be wary of any charter boat. I can tell you that the Catalina 380s are a well built boat and will go about anywhere you want to take them. I have never owned a Bene or Jeauneau, but I like many of their designs (and not some of the others). If you are going to pay cash for the boat, fine. If you are going to finance, which may make more sense (depending on your liquidity), you may find it easier to get the boat with a house versus not with it.

If your wife is moved for the peace corps, you can still get a "coastal" boat (which is not coastal, just more limited to maybe 5 day offshore passages or so - depends on the boat, could be more). You will just need to ship it via Dockwise from Ft. Lauderdale to the Med. From there it is an easy hop over to where you need to go. Given your experience, I would highly reccomend that anyways.

We cruise (or soon will again) with kids. Stay in touch with us. There are very few of us. Shoot away questions and I will try and answer them to the best of my ability. You have a lot to learn quickly.

Take care. Fair winds.

- CD


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## tigerregis (Nov 24, 2006)

Welcome here. One of the previous posters has a Hardin for sale, well within your range. His name was surfesq and, if you search I'm sure you will find it. Or possibly Cam knows where that post is. Good Luck.


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## vermilli (Apr 16, 2002)

There is a local (Annapolis) Couple cruising the world in a catamaran with their two daughters. They have a website www.zialater.com.

Joe has written a number of artices that will help you and you can contact them directly.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

vermilli...yeah...but I don't think he is in the market for a million dollar catamaran! Probably a useful guy to talk to though!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> I think we saw a total of four other sailboats that day... The cracker tray was only upset by the up-and-down motion of the boat... the boat was sailing about 5˚ of heel most of the time. Very pleasant...


I find myself usually thinking rather uncivilly "ooh, more for me!". Even in a monohull, you will often be over 20 degrees or so, but it's a fairly constant and not particularly abrupt motion unless you are on a close-haul. Then you can just spill some main or put on a hat.

Having had a couple of close calls when single-handing, I always wear the PFD alone. In fact, I wear it all the time on deck. It's just gotten to be habit. I also wear bicycle half-gloves (fingerless) as a $9 alternative to Henri Lloyd-type gear. I do that because a cam cleat giving way at the wrong point can tear skin off your fingers or palms in a big blow, which I find detracts from the fun and makes nasty spots on the teak and the gelcoat.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, I would agree that finding space for a larger cat can be a challenge... However, the do just fine on moorings.  And the smaller ones I mentioned actually will fit into many slips, as they have a beam of only 14'.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Valiente said:


> Having had a couple of close calls when single-handing, I always wear the PFD alone. In fact, I wear it all the time on deck. It's just gotten to be habit. I also wear bicycle half-gloves (fingerless) as a $9 alternative to Henri Lloyd-type gear. I do that because a cam cleat giving way at the wrong point can tear skin off your fingers or palms in a big blow, which I find detracts from the fun and makes nasty spots on the teak and the gelcoat.


I fully agree... PFD when single handing, and tether and harness most times too. Same about the gloves..


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Cruising dad - Thanks for the food for thought. It'll take awhile to digest it but I'm sure it will create some good discussion amongst my family. Be careful what you ask for - lot's of questions coming your way.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Not a problem TNT. I don't care what you get, as long as it isn't a trimaran or a portugese racing boat. Both of them will warp your mind... (smile).

- CD


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> Not a problem TNT. I don't care what you get, as long as it isn't a trimaran or a portugese racing boat. Both of them will warp your mind... (smile).
> 
> - CD


Grrr.... You really shouldn't talk... you're the guy who blows up grills to finish cooking the food... and craps his pants because he dropped a wrench in the bilge... 

PS... CD is okay in my book if anyone thinks he and I are being serious...  Even if he does have a Catalina fetish and sails a third of a boat...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

HAHAHA! I was wondering if you were going to see my reply!!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The sailingdog sees all... <evil laugh>


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