# Top telltale on Main not streaming aft



## bshock (Dec 11, 2012)

Hi folks,

I'm trying to figure out why I can't seem to get the top telltale on the main streaming aft. I phrf race on a friend's Ranger 26-2 in a Wednesday night beer can series, and we do pretty well against the other boats in our fleet. When the winds are "light," such as 5-ish mph, I can't seem to get the top telltale to stream aft. I've read a bunch of articles on sail trim, and what I'm reading indicates that a top telltale curling around the sail instead of streaming aft is a sign that the main is over trimmed, and that the main should be eased. So when we do that, it seems we have to REALLY let the main out quite far to get ALL the leech telltales to stream aft, and then the front luff section of the mainsail bubbles or back winds. While this is happening, the genoa's telltales are all behaving as they should be.

When the wind pipes up, we don't seem to have a problem with it, but certainly in lighter air.

other controls we have set during light air is moderate halyard and outhaul tension, moderate boom vang tension, zero backstay tension, cunningham pulled down to bring the draft forward.

The sail is a tri-radial dacron from an online outfit, new this summer.

Any ideas?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

You need more twist in light air. Let the vang out.

Mark


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

What I learned many years ago was that the top telltale lifting in average winds was just right. Years of very competitive boat speed says that this is true so don't fight the idea.
Here is some discussion that may help 
Guidelines for Good Mainsail Shape


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Such could be several things going on ...
• The mainsail could have been cut/designed with a lot of upper fullness or 'shoulder', typical of sails cut expecting or designed for 'heavy weight' crews.
• If a luff tell tale, it could be too far aft, such that when in light winds there's a small separation bubble forming at the top. .... try moving the tale forward or aft a wee bit. 
If its a leech tell tale .... try using two tales, one on each side, but so arranged that the aft end of tell tales don't go beyond the aft end of the leech. 

The correction usually is finesse in adjustment in mainsheet tension and traveller in/out position .... and sometimes using a less stiff batten at the #1 position when setting up for racing in 'light' winds. 
Sometimes remedied by slight increase or slight easing of mainsheet halyard tension which can cause the leech shape to 'open' (become more flat) or 'closed' (less flatness aft and with more 'hook-up' to weather side).


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## bshock (Dec 11, 2012)

Thanks all so much for your help. I'll try these various recommendations on Wednesday.


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## oldlaxer1 (Mar 27, 2008)

First thought is ease the vang. Second thought is if the winds are really light the weight of the boom may be closing the leach more than optimal. Do you have a rigid vang?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

You are not getting much "drive" from the very top of the main. If you trim for the top then the lower section is in trim.... use the vang and back stay to shape the sail to get the perfect airfoil shape.

Good luck!


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Everyone so far is giving great advice...
Light air 26 foot boat... I'd say find or use a rigid vang, or boomkicker, or topping lift (I like the top lift least mostly for the interference with the leech flow), the boom is likely holding down and hooking the top of the leech though.

Traveler above centerline, vang off a bit, and kicker pushing the boom up to get twist setup. In light air there is a lot of sheer by elevation, and there is sometimes as much as a 30 degree direction change in wind between the boom and the masthead.


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## bshock (Dec 11, 2012)

Excellent, thanks so much folks. I'm writing all these things down to take with me to the boat next Wednesday.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I am assuming your telltales are on the leech. the general rule I have always used for upwind trim is that the top telltale should stream about 50% of the time. It will always flick in and out when you are properly trimmed. If you can't get the rest of the telltales streaming without a back winding badly then I would say your mainsail is too full. More outhaul, more mast bend, less sheet tension, up traveler are the suggestions that come to mind, but it is really hard to say for sure without seeing it. if you cant sort it out next week, take a pic of the sail looking up from under the boom and post it. Then we could give you some better feedback


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

bshock said:


> The sail is a tri-radial dacron from an online outfit, new this summer.


This bit rings some alarm bells for me....


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## FreeAgent (Apr 19, 2017)

Some good advice above. 

Something I learned early on from an Olympic medal winner who happened to be sailing with me. He said to think of that top batten as the rudder. Don't have it open and don't have it kicking to windward. When it is adjusted just right, the ticker on the top batten should just flutter while the lower ones should stream. 

In light air, traveller above center line, sheet eased a bit should allow top batten to open up if it was hooked to windward. If really light others have made good suggestions. We on occasion went as far as having one of crew support the boom - on his shoulder  Anything to try and win a race


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## bshock (Dec 11, 2012)

Thanks All! I'll try all these things on Wednesday. The forecast is calling for more of the same light-ish air conditions.  We'd happily support the boom on our shoulders if that would help!


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Twist is good in light air, but also keep in mind that if you are twisting off the top of your main, you probably want more twist in your jib as well. Keep that slot open!

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## FreeAgent (Apr 19, 2017)

One other thing in light air. Don't pinch sailing upwind! Get and keep the boat moving. 

Once when sailing a native boat in Bahamas, Ted Turner was pinching, so was advised by boat's regular Bahamian skipper "Let da boat walk, mon" Always remembered that (or was reminded by crew!)


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

FreeAgent said:


> One other thing in light air. Don't pinch sailing upwind! Get and keep the boat moving.
> 
> Once when sailing a native boat in Bahamas, Ted Turner was pinching, so was advised by boat's regular Bahamian skipper "Let da boat walk, mon" Always remembered that (or was reminded by crew!)


Agreed! That is particularly important on shorter cord length keels. Get the boat moving first and foremost, then the keel will start to generate lift, and before you know it, you are pointing!

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## bshock (Dec 11, 2012)

Thanks again all!! yes, sometimes I have to remind the skipper that he's pinching, but it's easier for me to observe the genoa as the trimmer.  Fortunately we never pinch for more than a moment before he corrects his course.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

bshock said:


> Thanks again all!! yes, sometimes I have to remind the skipper that he's pinching, but it's easier for me to observe the genoa as the trimmer.  Fortunately we never pinch for more than a moment before he corrects his course.


So how did this week's race go? Did you see any improvement?

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## FreeAgent (Apr 19, 2017)

bshock said:


> Thanks again all!! yes, sometimes I have to remind the skipper that he's pinching, but it's easier for me to observe the genoa as the trimmer.  Fortunately we never pinch for more than a moment before he corrects his course.


Hope your race went well.

By the way, when I said not to pinch - that has more to do with how the genoa is set than whether the tickers are streaming. In light air, it is better to ease the genoa (your job) and let the boat "walk". In ultra light air, heel the boat to shape the sails and sail in any direction that will actually get the boat moving. When you do get a little puff you can use it, while all the other boats may still be sitting and unable to use that little puff!

One other trick that we used a few times. When wind dies and you are in a current - anchor! I can recall "passing" other boats while we were anchored


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## bshock (Dec 11, 2012)

SchockT, I printed out a list of the recommendations and took it with me to the race this past Wednesday. I had some success getting that top telltale to stream, but need to keep trying as I don't think I was as effective as I should be. We smoked the competition though. throughout the Spring and Summer series our main competition have been a very well sailed Catalina 27 and a Catalina 25. In light air, we generally trounce them. This past wednesday was the first race of the Fall series. For the first time a new or new-ish Fareast 26 is among our competition, with a phrf of 126 vs our 200 phrf. That boat really looks fast.

We finished maybe 25 minutes ahead of the Fareast, and 30 minutes ahead of the C27, but that's just because we were quicker around the course and very near the finish line when the wind went nearly dead. I'm surprised we beat the Fareast, and by so much.

If I copied and pasted correctly, below is a video of the start if anyone has a few or 17 minutes to spend and is interested. I'm the guy trimming the headsail. Bear in mind, all three of us are very much still learning strategy, so if you see something egregious don't be too tough on us. 






Oh and FreeAgent, yes, we have learned to heel the boat with body weight on light air days to fill shape the sails. It works amazingly well. And we definitely try to trim for speed, rather than pointing ability in those light air days. good tip about the anchor! I'll remember that!


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

bshock said:


> SchockT, I printed out a list of the recommendations and took it with me to the race this past Wednesday. I had some success getting that top telltale to stream, but need to keep trying as I don't think I was as effective as I should be. We smoked the competition though. throughout the Spring and Summer series our main competition have been a very well sailed Catalina 27 and a Catalina 25. In light air, we generally trounce them. This past wednesday was the first race of the Fall series. For the first time a new or new-ish Fareast 26 is among our competition, with a phrf of 126 vs our 200 phrf. That boat really looks fast.
> 
> We finished maybe 25 minutes ahead of the Fareast, and 30 minutes ahead of the C27, but that's just because we were quicker around the course and very near the finish line when the wind went nearly dead. I'm surprised we beat the Fareast, and by so much.
> 
> ...


Nice job port-tacking the entire fleet at the start! I'm sure those J-Boats weren't happy to see a 200 rater catch up to them and pass them. (They were all pretty damn slow getting their chutes up though!)

Was your boom really sheeted way above centre or was that just an illusion? It is hard to judge sail trim from that angle, but it seemed to work for you in those conditions.

A couple of thoughts....a rigid vang would be a worth while upgrade. And a spinnaker! A couple more feet of length on that continuous traveller line would make your life easier too!

Race committee needs to learn to set a decent windward-leeward leg so you get some tactics and passing lanes going on! That was a bit of a drag race!

Good job though...looks like you schooled the fleet!

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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

SchockT said:


> Nice job port-tacking the entire fleet at the start! I'm sure those J-Boats weren't happy to see a 200 rater catch up to them and pass them. (They were all pretty damn slow getting their chutes up though!)
> 
> Was your boom really sheeted way above centre or was that just an illusion? It is hard to judge sail trim from that angle, but it seemed to work for you in those conditions.
> 
> ...


One more thought....I had a Hotfoot 20 (similar to that Rocket 22 in your fleet) with a small jib like yours. I set up a barberhaul to allow me to sheet the jib out to the email when needed. I found it very useful in both very light, and heavy air! Just a thought.

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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

SchockT said:


> One more thought....I had a Hotfoot 20 (similar to that Rocket 22 in your fleet) with a small jib like yours. I set up a barberhaul to allow me to sheet the jib out to the email when needed. I found it very useful in both very light, and heavy air! Just a thought.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Sheet to the rail not the email! Stupid auto correct!

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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Some comments:
Never trim the boom, to windward of the boat centerline.
Dump the reef bunt lines off the main, bad for your airflow. Insert them after reefing if needed.
Light air twist means traveller a few inches to windward of centerline and mainsheet eased a few iclblnches, presto twist. Having the traveller all the way to windward means some of the main is luffing or stalled or some of both due to the radical twist, or only the weight of the boom is determining trim...this is way out in left field.
Off the wind the vang controls twist, you should set it so.
Off the wind, fatten the main by easing halyard and outhaul. Retension both at the leeward mark..

Your sail trim technique is pretty random, gotta wonder what is going on with the slower boats.

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## FreeAgent (Apr 19, 2017)

Had a look at the video. Great idea and well done! I remember teh roriginal ranger 26, but this 26-2 is quite different. Nice looking boat and looks like it should be faster than your 200 phrf.

I have some questions/comments

- Is that a full size phrf genoa? Not sure of the current rules, but the base phrf used to be based on a 153% genoa. If you have a smaller one, you might be entitled to a credit. No spinnaker - same thing - you should have a white sails phrf. 

- Looks like a furling jib? With a suncover?? Can't imagine racing with that heavy cover on the leech and foot. On top of that, you are loosing sail area because the luff has to be shorter to accommodate the furling gear. Maybe buy a new Mylar headsail and keep the furling sail for weekend cruises! And then buy a spinnaker and learn to use it. Mind you, with that kind of course, some of the spinnakers didn't look too useful!

Liked the idea of cranking the board up on the light air reach.

Don't like having reefs, lazy jacks etc on main. On J-24s, we had no kind of reefing on main. 

Finally - Looks like a fun group of not too serious racers. Usually that changes as the Arms Race kicks in!


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## Explorer (Oct 22, 2014)

No need to respond, but here are some thoughts after watching 2 parts.
Sheeting the boom a few inches past centre is ok in my book to get the large bottom area of the sail closer to the centre line for pointing, but I agree that it is generally not deisrable in anything but extremely light conditions. You could try tradeoffs between traveller and mainsheet and variations on how much twist but it ounds like you may have already found the optimum for the conditions you showed us.
In light air you generally try to get the weight forward. If the crew sat to leeward right against the rails the skipper could, if he has an adjustable tiller extension, sit to windward where he can see jib and main tell tales and leech ribbons and he could sit forward of the traveller until needing to come back to tack. The downside is that the crew would then be more in the flow of the leech of the headsail.
Wouldn't you centre the traveller going on the reach or are your settings of traveller up intended to help maintain twist?
As to the suggestion of a bigger genoa, would the benefits be lost either because you had to accept a handicap adjustment for using it, or would the benefits be lost after say 4 races as the increased speed reduced your handicap?
Same idea about getting skipper forward on the reach in light air.
Liftnig the keel /centreboard is good dinghy sailing technique on the downwind, but less on the reach as you don't want too much leeway. Maybe it could have been done earlier, using a mental checklist after each mark rounding and considering all adjustments. maybe starting from the front and working your way through to the back.
When you take the jibsheet outboard and back to the stern, doesn't the top of the jib blow off? Is it worth doing for better sheeting of the bottom of the sail? Would tweakers help or a block on the bottom of a staunchion? (So you kept the top of the sail working?)
I didn't see a tack on a beat the whole of two video's. Is it not possible to get lay a course with a direct beat to windward of at least a few hundred yards in every race irrespective of wind direction? Does you boat have a performance advantage off the wind compared to beating close hauled that explains a bit about your outperformace?
Is your lifting keel full weight for the class? Has a previous owner using it in light conditions removed weight to get even better light air performance?


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