# Helmets and sailing



## Ilikeboatin (Feb 28, 2007)

What are everyone's thoughts about helmets and sailing? I've taken a few hard hits from the boom over the years and I'm starting to look at wearing a helmet. What do you think?


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

What kind of helmuts do you have in mind ? Nascar, football, the list goes on .........


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

It may be a very good idea, as most of the serious injuries, at least according to the Safety At Sea seminar I attended last year, were either boom or MOB related. Probably want to go with something like a rock-climbing or hockey helmet, rather than a cycling one... 

The other option is having the boom raised a bit on your boat... so that the area where contact between the head and the boom is reduced... On my boat, if you're in the cockpit, it is almost impossible to get hit by the boom, unless you're head is above the bimini.  Also, installing a boom brake can reduce the speed and force the boom can exert when it moves accidentally... making it much less likely to injure you. 

The problem with a helmet on a boat, is that they can be hot and uncomfortable, and it is easy to forget to wear them... and not everyone aboard will have one that fits them. IMHO, it is generally better to make the boat safer by reducing the risks, than accepting them and putting a helmet on as part of accepting them. 

Even though the boom on my boat isn't much of a danger to people in the cockpit, it still represents a bit of a danger to people working on the cabintop, so I have installed a Dutchman boom brake on my boat, and would highly recommend it to anyone. It reduces the danger of the boom in an accidental tack or gybe, and also helps protect the rig from the shock loads of an accidental gybe.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

I wouldn't worry about it. I'm sure your boom will be fine.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

T34C said:


> I wouldn't worry about it. I'm sure your boom will be fine.


LOL, evil...but funny.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Please don't wear a helmet on your boat while you are sailing. The power boaters make enough fun of us as it is. Just duck!!


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

If you do go for the helmet, please, PLEASE, post photo's.

($5 says this triggers some kind of pics from G-)!!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

But CD... I had a great helmet picked out just for you...I was going to send it to you for Father's day... Here's a photo of it...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Ohh yes we all use helmets when we sail....

Her's my father in law's helmet....










And mine....makes me feel MUUUUUUCH safer.....we have more models...ask for more if you want....also have crotch protections photos....










Hey I have an idea....pad the boom with fleece!!!!!


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

:d :d LOL:d :d

I knew it was only a matter of time, but you guys are fast today!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

If you're dumb enough to get hit by the boom....its a Devine sign that sailing is not for you....kinda like the story of the guy that kept buying sea sickness pills and condoms......

I assure you...you get hit once...twice....and sometimes a third time...after that you're out of my boat....my boom was expensive....


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The advantage of Giu wearing a helmet is that we can't see his face...that's a bonus in my book.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

And here is my other Sailing Helmet and foul weather gear....


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Of course, on the serious side..there have been days where I've been out and wished I had a motorcycle helmet with full face mask, since the rain was coming down horizontally at about 35 mph... and making it awfully uncomfortable to look out at...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Riiiight...one photo of that coming right up....stay tuned....


This should be good... I can't wait to see what he comes up with...


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Be afraid. Be VERY afraid!!!


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Please don't give the government any ideas!*

Please don't give the government any ideas! Next thing you know some anti-fun, loser lawmaker will be mandating we all wear helmets for our safety. As always it will start with children first then incrementally creep towards a law in adults.

As someone who grew up during the Evil Knievel era jumping my Schwin Stingray over as many trash cans as I could with no helmet, skiing fast and recklessly before ski areas banned that with no helmet and playing coyboys and indians with real BB guns, one pump rule only of course, I find these new helmet laws and such so PC and idiotic & it's just plain foolish. It's a dangerous world out there maybe we sould mandate helmets while driving a car or being a pedestrian in any city with a "high density" population...?? Oh yeah and any elderly person requiring a cane or walker should most definitely wear a helmet too we all know how often they fall down. Save the children.....!!!!! Save the elderly......!!!! Look like idiots!

I never knew anyone of my friends who "lost an eye" or who was "paralysed" or "permanently brain damaged". Have we become a society of wimps and losers. Next time any of you go skiing look at how stupid the helmet wearers look. The best part is they are always the slowest most careful "sally assed" skiiers on the mountain except for the snow boarders but they have so many stickers on their helmets you can't tell if it's a helmet or a bill board any way..

My guess is that this thread was a troll and you got me!!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hey T34C... I found the perfect helmet for you...  Here's a photo...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Halekai- 

What is a Helmut... last I checked it was big German guy... who was a bouncer at a local bar...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Of course, on the serious side..there have been days where I've been out and wished I had a motorcycle helmet with full face mask, since the rain was coming down horizontally at about 35 mph... and making it awfully uncomfortable to look out at...


*EXTRA EXTRA EXTRA!!!!!!!!!!!!*

*SAILINGDOG AT THE MARINA AFTER A HARD DAY SAILING IN THE RAIN....

NOTE THE EXQUISITE FOUL WEATHER GEAR.....*


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hey, at least my legs look good... 

Actually, you can tell it's a photoshopped photo, since it looks nothing like me-far too flabby for one...and nothing like my real photo as seen previously on sailnet...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Seriously, I think that reducing the risk of head injuries is far better than wearing a helmet... If you add a boom brake, and raise the boom or shorten the leech of the sail slightly, it'll go a long way to preventing the boom from hitting your head.



> Why's a boom called a boom...that's the noise you hear when it whacks you in the head...


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

I think Helmut works at one of those bars where they like to wear alot of leather and dress like the Village People!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

T34C said:


> I think Helmut works at one of those bars where they like to wear alot of leather and dress like the Village People!!


Do you go there often??? LOL.... btw, do you like your new sailing helmet ?


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

SD- Perhap the easiest solution of all... Lower Your Head!

Or, since many on this site are more technical, maybe try applying some sort of lubricant to you head so the boom slides off more easily. That way it could only land a glancing blow! Maybe for those with "hair defeciency" a light spray of non-stick cooking oil would suffice????


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Do you go there often??? LOL.... btw, do you like your new sailing helmet ?


I'm not sure I resemble that!!! Well, maybe. I could hang tell tales from the points!!!!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Hey, at least my legs look good...
> 
> Actually, you can tell it's a photoshopped photo, since it looks nothing like me-far too skinny for one......


SD...please explain it to me I did not understand...did you gain weight again???


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

T34C said:


> SD- Perhap the easiest solution of all... Lower Your Head!


No need on my boat at least... there's at least a foot of space between the bottom of the boom and the top of my head when I'm standing in the cockpit. My crew is less lucky as most of them are six feet plus...but still most have at least four or five inches of clearance...

I'm not a big fan of helmets as required gear on sailboats... given how uncomfortable they can be...


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

SD- What no comment on my techy approach????


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

EHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE

AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

IHIHIHIHIHIHIHIHIHIHIHI

Don't look back...one should never look back

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

Specially you SD!!!!


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

This issue is not with the boom. The issue is when the boom comes to a sudden stop next to your head along with the corrisponding noise (Hence the Name). 

Perhaps the answer would be some sort of wheel or roller mounted either to the boom or possibly you head. 

Now where is that French guy with the clever sailing designs????


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Thanks teacher...*



sailingdog said:


> Halekai-
> 
> What is a Helmut... last I checked it was big German guy... who was a bouncer at a local bar...


I have fixed all my spelling errors and I'm ready for my next assignment. What was I thinking?? Helmut...!!!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Halekai- 

LOL... we were going to send you to that bar T34C was talking about in a minute... since you seemed so interested in helmut... 

T34C-

I think the bells would give you an auditory clue to the wind direction at least. BTW, the booming noise only occurs if the person's head has enough air in it... 


Giu-

Just when I think I've seen the worst you can come up with, you stoop lower and dig deeper into those archives of yours... EWWW!!!!!


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## EpicAdventure (May 18, 2006)

On a more serious note, can someone post a picture of how to rig a boom brake?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Sure we can...just a minute...ok???


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Sure we can...just a minute...ok???


This otta be good.................LOL


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

EpicAdventure said:


> On a more serious note, can someone post a picture of how to rig a boom brake?


Here's a photo of the Dutchman BoomBrake 500BB setup on my boat.

This is an overview of the whole setup.









These are details of the PX Powercleat that holds the brake line, the two deck attachment points at the chainplates, and the brake itself.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

However, I do await Giu's version with anticipation...  Should be good.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

EpicAdventure said:


> On a more serious note, can someone post a picture of how to rig a boom brake?


Here is a photo of my boom brake...

I can now stop my boat in 30', make a 180º sliding controlled skid, and tack the other way....


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

The reason my mizzen boom is called such is because it's always mizzen my head.

Helmets and boom brakes are for wimps . . . and South Europeans. <g>


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> The reason my mizzen boom is called such is because it's always mizzen my head.
> 
> Helmets and boom brakes are for wimps . . . and South Europeans. <g>


Watch it.....watch it......want a humiliating photo???? do you?????


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

SD is that a tri?????


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

G- Do you mean like a tricycle????


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Giulietta said:


> Watch it.....watch it......want a humiliating photo???? do you?????


Giu, I am immune to your attempts at humiliation.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Damn.....you spoiled all the fun....

I gave you the right photo, though......


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> SD is that a tri?????


Yes, why??


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> *EXTRA EXTRA EXTRA!!!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> *SAILINGDOG AT THE MARINA AFTER A HARD DAY SAILING IN THE RAIN....
> 
> NOTE THE EXQUISITE FOUL WEATHER GEAR.....*


SD- I think we may need to consider Trimspa????


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Yes, why??


Where are the "side kicks"??? Folded??


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Where are the "side kicks"??? Folded??


G- Please show a little respect for our sailing friends. We have spent a lot of time lately discussing proper terminalogy and etiquette. Not everyone has the same abilities and experiences as you. Sometimes we need to take a kinder and gentler approach when discussing the merits and attributes of others and their respective boats. Now say it with me: They are not "side kicks", they are Training Wheels.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I'm afraid you have all missed the most OBVIOUS solution to the problem. Simply cut out the cockpit floor, thereby, lowering you way underneath the boom. See? Simple.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Where are the "side kicks"??? Folded??


yup... folded so she fits in a single width slip...with room to spare...


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

PBzeer said:
 

> I'm afraid you have all missed the most OBVIOUS solution to the problem. Simply cut out the cockpit floor, thereby, lowering you way underneath the boom. See? Simple.


Not exactly what I had planned when I said "lower your head", but a nice work around.


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## yotphix (Aug 18, 2006)

So I take the lot of you think that helmets might be unecessary on a sailboat? I guess I don't have to ask then how you feel about my cockpit seatbelts idea!


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

At risk of exposing myself to more Portugese charm, I would mention that hats with long bills make for accidents waiting to happen. You cannot see what the top three inches of your head is about to hit, or is about to hit your head. You will often see shipyard workers with their hard-hats reversed, with the short bill pointing over their back, as they are ducking through frames and floors all day long.

Of course, certain southern European's do not have the requisite three inches to stick in to a ball cap and must make do with some other type of prophylactic device for head covering.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I'm sorry Giu, that was gratuitous. I'm an ass and full of crap. (Lord, what have I started? I'm too old for guilt.)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I believe in a proactive approach and make a policy of anaesthetizing myself as soon as we are away from the dock. After enough beer I don't care what smacks me upside the head ...  Not much left to damage in there anyway...


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## yotphix (Aug 18, 2006)

First time I had to wear a hard hat on the job I knocked myself silly and ended up flat on my arse twice getting used to the extra height. Not to mention the times I hung myself on scaffoldbecause of a safety harness! I would much prefer to be careful than to give myself a false sense of security.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Yeah! yotphix, you feel that baby down more than one vertebrae don't you!!!


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Great. Next I'll have to wear a life preserver when I'm on my Harley.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

How do you handle the vibration now?


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## yotphix (Aug 18, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> Yeah! yotphix, you feel that baby down more than one vertebrae don't you!!!


oooooow! Stop saying that! I can still feel it!


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

sailaway21 said:


> How do you handle the vibration now?


Harleys don't vibrate. They throb.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Who sails a Harley?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

T....maybe you don't know....but since SD mentioned that in that photo he was too......say......chunky....and that he went to trimspa...here's his photo afte he left the gym.....still wearing his 35mph side ways rain helmet....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

T34C said:


> Who sails a Harley?


Evel Slocum?


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

SD- Nice shoes!


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

I was referring to the crossover of intended safety devices. Recently, those with too much time on their hands have been testing air-bags on bikes. Here, it's talk of helmets on boats. I figured, what next? How about a life jacket on a bike?


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Well, now that you've all had your laugh...

Having been at my club when they brought in a guy who had been "boomed" twice in a 35 knot crash gybe (poor bastard didn't actually fall over the first time and the second time turned him into a vegetable...they pulled the plug after six days), I can certainly see a reason for some kind of head gear, just as I can see the reason for wearing the same sort of large ski goggles that are becoming quite common on racing boats. Maxi-cat crews are now donning helmets and googles as a matter of course.

I've also known of crew that have fallen off masts...AT DOCK...and have sustained devastating head injuries that a helmet might have avoided. Picture the side of a skull versus a SS dorade "cage" from four metres up, and you'll picture the problem.

I was a bike courier in the '80s before helmets were mandatory or particularly common on bicycles. I saw the results of a seemingly trivial head injury in the rehab ward, and I started to wear a "skid lid". Now, it's second nature, and the better helmets are very light and well-ventilated. My new boat has steel "lifepipes" instead of lifelines, and I can easily see that a slip in a seaway could occasion a "pipe versus head" scenario. So perhaps helmets aren't so crazy.

Recall that sailors would have deemed as unbelievably effete the use of jacklines and harnesses 100 years ago (there was a "manrope" rigged in the waist of old sailing ships in heavy weather, but that was about it). Also recall that a mere 25 years ago, even gloves would have been sneered at as somehow unmanly, as most "real" sailors had thickly callused fingers and palms from handling natural fibre three-strand. Even 20 years after my father stopped being a sailor, I can recall from childhood how beefy and roughened his palms were.

Today, of course, few sailors have palms like elephant's feet, and few consider that a bad thing. I predict that helmets for rough-weather sailing will go through the same evolution of mockery, second thought, use among the young, and finally acceptance. Even since 1999, when I bought my first boat, I've noticed the percentage of people being hauled to the masthead for maintenance who also wear helmets (usually climbing helmet-style, it seems) go from zero to about 40%.

I still rig preventers, of course, but I can see harsh conditions where having a helmet might keep me conscious were I to be thrown down the companionway or into a deck support.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

Life is full of risks. We all must judge the amount of risk we are comfortable with. Some will over estimate and some will under estimate. Those who over estimate, well we have all seen the cases of Darwainian theory at work. Those who under estimate live to fight another day, but are probably less likely to procreate and thus Darwainian theory once again raises its head. In the end, not all the little turtles make it to the sea.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"As someone who grew up during the Evil Knievel era jumping my Schwin Stingray over as many trash cans as I could with no helmet,"

When bicycle helmets were a radical new thing that no one wore and no laws required, a friend of mine was knocked down by someone else during a 100 mile cycle event. He cleverly stopped his slide by hitting a granite curb with his head, and was in the hospital for a week afterwards.

That convinced us both to get and use helmets--no laws required. Since kids are dumb [as in, unlearned] and their parents are often worse, I'm in favor of some laws requiring helmets for kids for some things. I'd hate to see it for sailing, but I know what it feels like to have a glancing kiss from a boom. Memorable. UGH.

You know the noise that an aluminum hardball bat makes when someone has just hit the ball out of park? You get that same noise, but it's coming from INSIDE your head. And that's about all you can focus on for a while, that funny noise is coming from INSIDE your head.

So it's tempting, at least in rough wx, to think about taking the helmet along. If anyone asks, just put a camo cover on it and tell 'em you're on duty hunting those Al-Qaeda submarines.<G>


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Amen.....T Amen......

Valiente...I feel for the loss of your friend...I am sory to hear that....Eric Tabarly (French Sailor I know...but he must have been from the South of France) also died from being hit in the head by his boom on his boat he rebuilt and sailed for 20 years, Pen Duick, and drowned never to be found...

I am not saying it is not a good idea....just don't feel it should be imposed, but above all....I strongly believe that education is better than remedy....a well educated sailor knows the boom is there.....and if he doesn't he shouldn't be there in the first place..

Fred learnt the hard way, once...never got hit again....and me too....we should be on the lookout on a sailboat....moreso with low booms...want to relax as CD does...get a boat with higher boom....

I have a 18.5' boom....I know how it moves...I know what it can do when we sail strong winds and hard....I just keep an eye...never relax on it. simple

Accidents happen, of course...but good awarness prevents them.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I'm in favor of whatever measures people wish to take for their personal safety and am against any governmental attempts to tell us what to do for our own safety. 
The decision to wear a seat belt or a helmet should be mine alone to make as it affects no one else.

Now some do-gooders will justify the laws saying that my increased likelihood of hospitalization imposes a cost on society. To that I say...humbug. When you close down the fast food joints, ban alchohol and smoking altogether, outlaw sex (STD's) etc. then you can come after me and my helmet/seatbelt/lifejacket.

(Kids excepted)


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Heres a good reason to wear a helmet while sailing in the SF Bay:

http://quake.wr.usgs.gov/recenteqs/FaultMaps/San_Francisco_eqs.htm

Its been a busy night.


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

T34C said:


> Life is full of risks. We all must judge the amount of risk we are comfortable with.


 How true! The risks are increasing of course. I used to have to worry about not having enough flares on-board. Now I have to worry about being caught with excess numbers of out-of-date flares. Ditto fire extinguishers. Ditto life-jacket self-inflating capsules. A skipper not only has to take the risk of not having enough "safety" features, he has to worry about being caught with them too. Before long, the biggest risk to happy sailing will be the local authorities.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Cam-
"The decision to wear a seat belt or a helmet should be mine alone to make as it affects no one else.
Now some do-gooders will justify the laws saying that my increased likelihood of hospitalization imposes a cost on society."

Sure enough.<G> I would rephrase you to say "The decision to wear a seat belt or a helmet should be mine alone to make _*if*_ it affects no one else." The problem being, as you note, that bad decisions have become societal costs in our socialist world.

There are indeed proposals to tax fast food restaurants, just as cigarettes and alcohol are taxed. And now some outright bans on transfats in foods, which I think the food makers secretly celebrate since it allows them to compete on a level playing field--using the more expensive alternatives.

What we really need is some type of "opt-in or opt-out" system, where the choice and the responsibility can be tied together. So if someone is in a car wreck and their seat belt says "Hi, I haven't been used this week" their health care won't be paid for by the public systems, nor will my local state police have to deal with extracting them from their windshield. If you figure out how to get that opt-in/out certification working, do let me know!

Idiens-
Are you seriously concerned about having too many expired flares and such? For a while there were internet rumours in the US and a coupe of badly confused uniforms out there claiming this was a citable situation, but at least here, it has long been clarified that all you need is the currently mandated equipment, the presence of _extra_ equipment that is out of date, is none of their concern.
I buy my three current whatevers as needed, my pyro box stays out of date but I know they'll still work, more often than not, when kept sealed and dry. If nothing else, it will keep my mind off the rising water.<G>


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

hellosailor said:


> Idiens-Are you seriously concerned about having too many expired flares and such?


 Having up-to-date flares is a legal requirement for SOLAS ships and the stupid 3 year expiry is decreed by the IMO. It's our French and Spanish uniforms this time. They figure what's good enough for SOLAS is good enough to fine yachties with. Same with Halon (illegal 2003) and out of date fire-extinguishers, same with water induced inflation devices on life-jackets, even if they have a manual trigger too. If you have a life raft, it better be in date, but there's no fine for not having one (yet). Hell, even my ancient Sailor RT144B is illegal these days. Just to top it, I now have to pay road tax on my marine diesel.
<End of rant>


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## Hawkwind (Apr 25, 2006)

My two cents.

Other's can wear whatever they want to make them feel comfortable. Even on fair weather days, like most, I require life jackets on my boat for the younger folks and I always ask adults how well they can swim and try to talk them into wearing a jacket if they say something like, "not so good." If they said they couldn't swim, then they would have no choice while on deck. I ride a motorcycle and I have friends that will wear a full face helmet on 95 degree days, even if we're in Ohio, which has no helmet law. To each their own.

I am not quite so cautious for myself. I feel I am safe, but I know some others would think I was taking risks. No offense intended, but I can't help but use the phrase "health and safety nazis" when folks try to tell me what I can or can't do in this regard. 

Because of the stink boats, Michigan tells me I can't have bow riders. As a kid, I used to love putting my legs around a bow rail stantion and trying to touch the water with my toes. 

I think that there is a slippery slope here. For instance, if they made helmets a requirement, how long before a law says I can't sail solo?

Wear a helmet if you want. But please, no laws.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Idiens, perhaps something is lost in translation. Since the point is even unclear within our own enforcers.

There is a difference between being required to have a certain number of pieces of current equipment (which is what the tegulations require) and being banned from having outdated equipment.

Once the regulations have been fulfilled, any "other" equipment is irrelevant and outside the scope of the regulations, The possession of outdated or otherwise non-compliant flares are most emphatically _not banned. _ Not even under SOLAS. You are allowed to possess whatever you please--as long as you _also _meet the requirements for the required equipment.

Many people simply cannot understand the difference between a requirement, and a prohibition. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Regulation and common sense rarely collide in the same sentence.

Most regulations require that if you have it, it must meet code. This of course ignors the fact that you may have all the flares, or lifeboat biscuits required but have decided to keep extra. The alleged goal is to prevent those "less knowledgable" from thinking they meet code with their out of date gear. Personally, I favor the libertarian approach of minimal or no regulation. If you want to go out with four adults and six kid's lifejackets for them that should be ok, assuming the other adults know of your safety standards. After all, how will we ever know if Darwinian evolution really works, if we keep suppressing it?<G> Regulations are designed for the lowest common denominater-and that can be pretty low. We live in a society that tries to regulate results, ignoring the history of such efforts. We do have to remember though; every time we say something like, "there outta be a law" there is no telling where the law will end up and whose ox will end up being gored. I would prefer that regulatory bodies would issue "recommended guidelines" and then the vessel could present herself as "meeting recommended guidelines" or floating death trap as appropriate. The phrase "the law is an ass" is taught in law schools for a reason.

My personal favorite, here in Michigan, is the one where it is ok for my buddies 285 lb kid to be on the foredeck all day handling sails, but as soon as we drop sail to motor back to our launch site he must be in the cockpit! The fact that the change in trim means I can't see over the bow anymore is not addressed by the law and so obviously must not be a safety concern since I am now in compliance with the Safe Boating Law!


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

hellosailor said:


> Idiens, perhaps something is lost in translation. Since the point is even unclear within our own enforcers..


Hellosailor - I understand your logic, some of the uniforms don't. I don't think I am actually required to carry one life jacket for everyone on board, but I do. I just wish I had bought the ones that don't have an expiry date on one component. - Which in France may result in a fine. Again on flares, I am not sure if there is a legal requirement to carry them, or how many, or of which type. But I follow the RORC advice, which makes me subject to a fine (in France) if any old ones are found onboard.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Idiens said:


> Hellosailor - I understand your logic, some of the uniforms don't. I don't think I am actually required to carry one life jacket for everyone on board, but I do. I just wish I had bought the ones that don't have an expiry date on one component. - Which in France may result in a fine. Again on flares, I am not sure if there is a legal requirement to carry them, or how many, or of which type. But I follow the RORC advice, which makes me subject to a fine (in France) if any old ones are found onboard.


While these may not be requirements in Belgium, they are in many parts of the world, including the US waters. You are required to have one PFD per person, plus at least one Type IV throwable PFD. As for flares, you're required to have at least three day and three night visual safety devices-flares count for both day and night use, and if you're using them, you would be required to have three aboard that are not past expiration date. In the US, there is no law about carrying past expiration date flares-just that at least three must be within their dated lifespan.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> The decision to wear a seat belt or a helmet should be mine alone to make as it affects no one else.


While I doubt I'd qualify as a libertarian by American standards, I generally like to see sensible limits to behavioural modification through governmental regulation. But I will point out that I witnessed a car accident when I was eight in 1969 involving a fellow with a really nice E-type Jag who slammed into the back of a bus. His unbelted body came through the windshield at speed, and his deeply sliced corpse crippled a child bystander. So his decision to not wear a belt (and probably to drive drunk) created the conditions by which his body itself became a projectile and crippled an innocent child. Had he been belted it, his neck might still have snapped, or his chest might still have been impaled on the steering wheel, or his head still crushed on the (untempered, jagged) glass of the windshield.

But the nearby child wouldn't have had a broken back because he got hit by 100 kilos of dead *******.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Unfortunately, the people who choose to drive drunk often end up killing innocent bystanders with little loss to themselves... in many cases, their state of inebriation and the relaxation it causes will prevent them from serious injuries... Certain laws, like those against drunk driving, protect society to the greater good... where self-preservation is likely to have no effect. 

Drunk boaters are also a huge problem. 

However, requiring helmets would be going a bit beyond protecting society, as the risks from not wearing a helmet are pretty much limited to oneself....and not to others. One should be able to determine and choose the level of risk they are willing to expose themselves to... but should not have the option of choosing to expose others to a risk without permission. I advocate anti-drunk boating/driving laws as a good thing.... but mandatory helmet laws for sailing strike me as nannyism gone amuck.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*The problem with these laws..*

Like the seat belt laws is that they are pushed for by industry not necessarily the government although it is meant to look like it was a legislators idea. The reason most all states have set belt laws is that insurance companies have lobbied for them. Sure the actuarials show better surviveabilty with a seat belt, even though my brothers best friend burned to death because he could not get his off, but the real truth is MONEY.

Most don't realize that if you are not wearing a seat belt the insurance company now has an out on paying your medical bills because you were "breaking the law". My wife has treated three patients alone this year who have been to court and lost against insurance companies for medical bills because they were in fact breaking the law by not wearing a seat belt. Prior to seat belt laws the insurance company would have had to pay. This is the real reason behind these laws. Avoiding fiduciary responsibility is what insurance companies are all about. It's not about keeing you safe it's about the insurance industries bottom line disguised as "protecting the people"!!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> I advocate anti-drunk boating/driving laws as a good thing.... but mandatory helmet laws for sailing strike me as nannyism gone amuck.


Well, I don't like them, either. But I can certainly see a rationale for helmets in certain conditions...perhaps it's my 1 1/4" steel pipe "lifelines"!

As for drinking and boating, I think driving a 10 tonne vessel at 7 knots drunk is probably equally as bad as driving a one tonne car at 120 km/h, and I have no objection to on-the-water breathalyzer testing and the immediate confiscation of the boat if the skipper is found over the limit.

I enjoy my beverages, but it's at the dock or the mooring, never underway.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Well, since this thread is pretty well run, i might as well aid in it's hijacking. First off, let me state that I am not in favor of drunk driving or drunk boating. Second off, let me state that some people need to get a grip on reality. The British Navy would have never left the dock without grog on board, and they didn't only drink it while on the mooring. And what makes drinking on the mooring any more responsible than drinking underway? You are master of your vessel at all times. If fire breaks out while on the mooring or underway it is still fire. Men go overboard while alongside and can be injured further by an incapacitated seaman. The answer is, of course, moderation in all things. I no longer drink at all, but that does not mean that I expect other's to conform to my choices.

As for the limit. Current federal law is, to the best of my recollection, 0.06. An able-bodied seaman, after two weeks at sea, goes ashore and has a couple of beers on an empty stomach and returns to his ship. He goes to bed, a fire breaks out, is extinguished, the CG arrives and tests everybody, and he loses his ticket. Done, out of work, no chance for employnment in his profession, and he did not even get out of his bunk. That's the law.

Let's examine the same type of law on shore. The limit in most states is 0.08, but that does not preclude an "impaired" citation if below that limit. For whatever reason, a person loses their license, and the ability to insure a vehicle. They still drive. We throw up our hands and say, 'what a crime'. What is the person suppossed to do? For how many of you is driving an optional activity? How many live within walking distance of work? If you lose your license for too many speeding tickets you are going to continue to drive. Let's be real. Wake up tomorrow morning with no license and what are you going to do? You're going to drive-carefully. You've got a family to feed-we all do.

So where does this end up? We end up in an accident with a driver who has no license and no insurance. Because we have four kids and drive a ten year old car we only carry PL/PD coverage on our vehicle. We're SOL. Was this the intent of the law? Is it the effect of the law? "Zero tolerance" sounds fine until it applies to you. Legislatures are removing all discretion from judge's hands. It won't be long before you'll be getting a mandatory 30-90 days in the brig for a first offense. Obviously, the answer is not to drink and drive, and I have that covered because I don't drink at all. You are sitting home, having a drink with your wife prior to turning in and your daughter calls. She is a couple of miles from home and her car has died. You hop in your car and go pick her up. While you are loading her up John Law stops to see what's up. You are going to jail. He can't let you drive home the two miles, and he can't give you a ride home, he can't let your sober friend come out and get you, he can only take you to jail. He has no leeway. That IS the law. And that is just how it happens. You are now one of "them".

And that is the same thing that will happen to you eventually if you look to the law to solve your problems on the water. The current system is not working and it's only making lawyers richer. The only long term solution is moderation and education. Teach your kids by word and example. If they have a problem, get them help right now. Do not encourage or condone excessive drinking by fellow sailors. You may not have a problem, they might. We are a community of seamen and, at the best of times we are a brotherhood. We should regulate, promote, and police ourselves to our own high standards. You may say that cannot work. I say, it is the only thing that can work. The law is an ass, and once you involve it, there is no telling where it will end. Most of us have, at one time or another, had too much to drink. Imagine, regardless of where you were at the time, you were to be held accountable for being drunk. With the lowering of limits, and the intrusion of the law, that is where that seaman on that ship is at. Many of you are cruisers; is your situation that different? Sound asleep in your bunk, while at your mooring, the marine patrol pulls alongside to inform you your anchor light is out. You wiggle the plug and all is well. Until the question, "Captain, have you been drinking?" Off you go in irons. Tell me it can't happen.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

When laws are passed to appease a constiuency first, and address a problem second, these are the kind of laws we get. Also, when laws are used as behaviorial modifiers, they often create more problems than they solve. The law of unintended consequences.

Yet, despite all the evidence, people want government to solve their problems for them. The same people who point their fingers at FEMA, will turn around and ask the government to provide them healthcare. How scary is that? As has happened throughout history, once people turn their sense of initiative over to government, they soon after become second class citizens. A nation of victims and entitlements who seek not to help themselves, but to be given all they desire.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Beezer's missive should be posted under the masthead of every newspaper editorial page in the country. Permanently.


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

I were to recommend a helmet to protect against the boom it would be one of the Styrofoam bicycle helmets. This helmet has very little frontal overhang, good ventilation, is light and offers good impact absorption and it will float if dropped overboard. It also will not damage the boom.
The only helmet I can think of that would be suitable for life pipes would be a motocross type helmet that would protect the face as well as the rest of the head.
As far as Harley Davidson riders needing a helmet that's totally ridiculous. Anybody riding a Harley Davidson realizes right away that the Harley is not fast enough to hurt you, unless of course it falls over on you while you're polishing the underside.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I like Harleys

Specially the King of the Road...


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

I have been using the perfect helmet for sailing...

I allows breathing underwater, protects my eyes against SD's "side rain", amd wouldn't stain my black boom in case of impact!!!


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## BADG (Dec 24, 2001)

I've recently decided that I will not take my helmet off - ever.
Life is scary and I could be hit with an acorn falling from an oak tree just walking to the mailbox or a seagull might poop on my head as I stroll along the beach. I'm not waiting for any legislator to say I have to, my helmet is on and it ain't comin' off.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Badg...toooooo funny!!!


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

timebandit said:


> I were to recommend a helmet to protect against the boom it would be one of the Styrofoam bicycle helmets. This helmet has very little frontal overhang, good ventilation, is light and offers good impact absorption and it will float if dropped overboard. It also will not damage the boom.


I was thinking of a bicycle style helmet, yes. But strictly for heavy weather, and I might tie a sou'wester on top of it to disguise my appalling fruitiness.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Badg...I've got a jockstrap and cup you can have if you want to protect EVERYTHING vital!! <g>


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## Idiens (Jan 9, 2007)

How about airbags mounted on the boom and a parachute to soften the water landing?


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

All these guy's wives have already got all the air-bags any woman could need.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Good-she left. My wife made me write that!<G>


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## MtnMike (Mar 5, 2007)

*Classic Post*

In the spirt of reviving some of the classics, like "Sailing with Bulldogs" I thought this was one of the funniest of all times.

Please don't kick me out!

Mike


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

I am all suited up to go sailing


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

No sweat Mike. I do know that SailingDog now wears a helmet when he's posting.

BTW - where do you ski? And please don't tell me you'd rather sword fight with a helmet on.


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## MtnMike (Mar 5, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> BTW - where do you ski?


Season pass at Loveland


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Sweet. I was an A-Baser myself when I lived in Denver - but I would take anything I could get at this point. Have fun, dude!


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## laser89 (Mar 6, 2010)

I am also considering a helmet. I go out sailing by myself in a laser and if i were to get knocked out no one would even notice. Ive seen a video where the skipper of Telefonica Blue was wearing a helmet so there may be helmets made specially for sailing. I will post a reply if i find anything.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

My sailing helmet









Smacks sailing helmet​ 

​


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Have you considered bubble wrap on the boom?


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*Tin foil hat found to make best radar reflector in government study.*

No, I'm not kidding.

ttp://www.seagrant.umaine.edu/files/pdf-global/05raref.pdf


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If you were in the study, the thick skull was probably throwing off the results...  Tinfoil hats are for crazy people...ask CP or CD...



pdqaltair said:


> No, I'm not kidding.
> 
> http://www.seagrant.umaine.edu/files/pdf-global/05raref.pdf


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Tin foil hats work. It's the people who think they can get the same results from _aluminum _foil who are crazy.(VBG)


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## Waltthesalt (Sep 22, 2009)

The British RNLI (volunteer lifeboat association) uses helmets as do the USCG rescue boats. If you really want to do this you might check out what they wear.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Put the adult beverages and your uncle Helmut away.


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## Dirtboy (Jul 13, 2009)

I crewed on an Irwin 40 for several years and I became the official foul weather helmsman. Why? 'Cause I'm a fantastic helmsman! Well, that's what I thought.  

The real reason is I'd always ride my motorcycle to the yacht club (parking isn't such a problem when you ride a motorcycle) and I'd store my riding suit and helmet onboard. While everyone was warm and dry down below, I was also warm and dry in the cockpit. I could see in a driving rain and I wasn't too worried about what I looked like. Who else is looking at me in a driving rain??? 

You can get a cheep HJC brand full coverage helmet for around a hundred dollars. Since it's designed to be used in winds over a hundred MPH it'll work fine on your boat. Get one that color matches or just plain white.

I actually carry two helmets onboard. My full coverage for use in the rain and a small open face helmet I use when diving under the boat. I've found that when working underwater it can often help to rest your head on the hull for more leverage or just to help steady your body. 

If you ever get the chance to use a full coverage helmet in the rain ....... you'll be adding it to your equipment list.

DB


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## laser89 (Mar 6, 2010)

A Kite-surfing helmet would be perfect.


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## Dirtboy (Jul 13, 2009)

I wouldn't go with the kite surfing helmet because it's open face design will allow water on the inside of the visor. A proper full coverage motorcycle helmet will not only protect your head and face from just about anything that's gonna hit it on a sailboat but will also give you clear vision in a driving rain. It may be over-designed for this use but that's okay with me.

This is my foul weather helmet, my 5 year old street helmet that I replaced a few months ago. Took these when it was new.



















DB


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## laser89 (Mar 6, 2010)

I thought about a motorcycle helmet but i thought it might be a bit big and get in the way on a laser.


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

I actually have a 'Gath' which is a surfing helmet. I have a propensity to 'crown' myself with anything solid. I also have worn a pair of goggles because of the spray. Luckily, nobody with a camera would surface from the cabin to record the goof at the helm!!


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

There are some real advantages to full face helmets, from a racing standpoint.
1. More surface for sponsors = more $ for beer.
2. Intimidation- if you look like the bridge crew of the Death Star, it scares the hell out of the other crews in the Wed night beercan series.
3. With the option of in-helmet audio and intercom, no one has to listen to the skipper's bad jimmy buffett mix yet again, but everybody has to listen to his orders.
4. If you are a multi-huller it may become mandatory.
Seems like all the really spectacular crashes are multi hull boats:


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

bljones said:


> Seems like all the really spectacular crashes are multi hull boats:


THat's cause leadmines are just too slow to have really spectacular crashes...


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## PeterSailer (Mar 20, 2010)

I know that some racers use crash helmits when there in the cabine in bad condition, and to climb up the mast.
From what I read it has already safe lives...


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

Here's what I'm thinking about - the ultimate in sailing protection (may have some rust issues in salt water....):


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## GreymatterPG (Jun 2, 2011)

*Helmet*

I racen offshore trimarans and when it is over 20knt of breeze and we run with over 20knt of speed I always wear a bmx helmet and my goggles (most of the problem i have is in heavy breeze gotta go up the mast and get banged arround quiete a but)

PS never wear it for cruising so gotta get the feeling so u can tell when the boom is comming over without even have to look at it


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