# Sailing NE Florida to the Abacos



## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

Starting to plan an offshore passage from NE Florida to the Abacos. My preferred route is all offshore avoiding the 'standard sail south to Ft Lauderdale and head east'.

The plan is head east out of St Augustine to cross the stream then head south east to leave Little Bahamas Bank well to starboard keeping in deep water to gain enough southing to then make landfall from east to west in the Abacos.

I've never sailed this route before and would like to hear from anyone who has.

Thanks!


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## glymroff (Apr 2, 2009)

I know of a boat (we sailed out of St Augustine together) that tried it. I believe it was a PS31. We met them later coming up from Biscayne... Not sure they made it  But maybe they did and they shot back to the states... In the few minutes we were on the radio as we crossed paths, they indicated they just ran out of time and had to go back home (NC). FWIW


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## marianclaire (Feb 4, 2010)

I have only made one round trip to the Abacos so FWIW. The ICW is not bad from St Aug to Lake Worth and can be done with some offshore jumps, staying close to shore to avoid the stream. I crossed from L W and did not fight the current and made Little Bahama Bank N of White Sand Ridge. Then on to Great Sale etc. And plan to do the same in the future. From what I have seen and read coming in the cuts in the Abacos can be a problem in some weather conditions. No way to guarantee good weather when you arrive. I think you have a 30 ft boat, more info on the boat and your and crews experience may help with responses. Dan S/V Marian Claire 30ft


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## gerrycooper (Dec 1, 2002)

We used to hug the coast from Jax to Fort Pierce, arrive afternoon. Refuel/water if necessary, anchor then a nana nap until 6-30. Eat and leave about 7-30 straight for White Sand Ridge at sun rise. You then have all day to get to Great Sale. Biggest issue at night wasn't cargo ships per se but tugs pulling container barges on long tows.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

You could probably do it motorsailing but you would be in to both wind and current with the possibility of having to enter during a rage.

Sensible option is to leave in the evening from West Palm Beach timing it to make it on to the banks at 10 am. Spend a peaceful night at Great Sale Cay then check in next day at green Turtle cay.


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## luv4sailin (Jul 3, 2006)

Leaving from St. Augustine, you would have to sail pretty far to the East to get clear of the Gulf Stream. It's center axis is at about W79*30' at about N30* (St Augustine), so that is a plan of questionable wisdom.

A much better plan is one described by TQA in this thread. Leave St. Augustine and sail down to Palm Beach. Do it non-stop, or you can come in at Canaveral or Ft. Pierce or both. Then wait for a southerly to go across the stream and the bank. That could take some waiting or you could get lucky and be able to jump right away. Coming down should not be much of an issue as the prevailing winds are easterlies. And life could be worse than sitting on the hook in Palm Beach just North of Peanut Island waiting for a southerly.


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## Scallywag2 (Feb 9, 2010)

When do you plan to leave? September through November is hurricane season. November starts the Nor'Easterners, so you need to pick a window.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Nothing wrong with your plan if you have the time...EXCEPT...make sure there will be no large swell running from the east. Those swells can make the passes into the Sea of Abaco a killer, literally.

When the swells build up against the reefs around the passes you get the aptly named RAGE running.

Also, they are not well marked like the inlets in the usa. Charts are known to be innacurate. Time your arrival for mid morning to mid day so you can see into the water ahead. Do not try it at night or late afternoon with the sun in your eyes.


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

Thanks...too many missed my point I think...I don't want to hug the coast sailing south or do the ditch going south. The goal is to sail offshore, open ocean for several days heading east and enter the Bahamas from east to west.

Would like to hear from anyone who has done the passage in this manner. 7 to 14 days offshore is fine.

Thanks.


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## mellowseas (Feb 28, 2009)

I did it in the opposite direction. About 240 nm. I crossed the stream at right angles to avoid any north bound traffic. Nice ride. I was going to do it traveling to the Bahamas but poor weather had me traveling south, inside on the ICW. 

I don't see any problems with it. Of course crossing the stream needs to have a good weather window. But the stream is only 45 nm off St. Augustine and then about 50 to cross it so a 24 forecast gets you to the other side. After that it's just like any other blue water passage. 3 days should get you to the Little Bahamas Bank. I'd go in that way to avoid any poor weather trouble getting through one of the passages. Also, I'd be should to keep far enough east to stay in the cone of the Bahamas that blocks the gulf stream. It flows right up to the banks.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

malyea said:


> Thanks...too many missed my point I think...I don't want to hug the coast sailing south or do the ditch going south. The goal is to sail offshore, open ocean for several days heading east and enter the Bahamas from east to west.
> 
> Would like to hear from anyone who has done the passage in this manner. 7 to 14 days offshore is fine.
> 
> Thanks.


I think you're missing the point too. Experience here says DONT DO THAT ROUTE. But if you insist on beating into prevailing SE winds against a current that is 2-4 knots in the wrong direction (even if you're out of the main gulfstream)...its your boat.

Not many people do what you're doing, but hey if you discover some magic route where the eddies flow south, publish a book. Thats one way to keep the cruising kitty full!!!


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## mellowseas (Feb 28, 2009)

Night0wl 
You probably will be beating SE but there is no 2 to 4 knot current running west on the north side of the Bahamas. The gulf stream itself is a 2 to 4 knot current.


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## gerrycooper (Dec 1, 2002)

There's probably a very good reason why you haven't received comments about the plan to sail offshore and enter the Bahamas from East to West.


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

Malyea there is nothing wrong with just going sailing and seeing what happens...Often you have to sail towards Bermuda on the starboard tack as the port tack tack puts you into the stream going nowhere. But if you get westerlies or southerlies you will be there in 2-3 days.

The two dangers are north winds into the Gulf Stream and a rage when you get to the Abacos and don't do it in hurricane season. The only real danger is trying to do the trip to a schedule.

Have fun.


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## Yorksailor (Oct 11, 2009)

ps Bermuda is very nice...Last time we went off-shore going to the Caribbean we did warn the crew that we might go via Bermuda!


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## azguy (Jul 17, 2012)

Maybe someone can help a newbie, I always see these threads, is the prevailing wind from the east is that why these are tough passages...??

Looking at maps etc, one would think the wind would be from the south along with the gulf stream and it would be just a reach to the island the OP mentioned..

Thanks


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## marianclaire (Feb 4, 2010)

azguy: This site may give you some info on historical wind directions. NRCS National Water and Climate Center - Climate Products - Climate Data - Wind Rose Click on the "Wind Rose Plots" at the top of the page and pick you state and city.
Dan S/V Marian Claire


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## priscilla (Mar 20, 2000)

NightOwl is right! Stick close to the coast or use the waterway, Cross to the little Bahama Bank and you can sail in the dark to Great Sale Cay. Leave from W.Palm Beach for the 60nm voyage to Memory Rock. You don't want to be anywhere north of the Bahamas in poor weather, and your sail south offshore will be terrible!...Been there..done that! In a 48'boat with a 65hp engine....took forever!

When you wake-up in Great Sale Cay, its paradise!


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## luv4sailin (Jul 3, 2006)

Azguy:

Take a look at this fabulous site. It has the pilot charts for the world. Pick your month and look at the area East of Florida and you'll see what we are all talking about.

Atlas of Pilot Charts for the Major Oceans of the World


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Mal

Why the aversion to the Little Bahamas bank? Most of the north end is over 10' deep, easy to sail across. Stop in Great Sale for wind protection from almost any direction.
From there it's a long day to Green Turtle.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

mellowseas said:


> Night0wl
> You probably will be beating SE but there is no 2 to 4 knot current running west on the north side of the Bahamas. The gulf stream itself is a 2 to 4 knot current.


Oh but there is an up to 2 knot current running east to west across the top of the Abacos. Sure you can do it ... the question is why? If you must go from St. Aug is to go due east, heading about 20 deg. further south to compensate for the GS, then turn south but allowing/compensating for the westerly current along the top of the Abacos. 
The tried and true way to get to the Abacos with the least amount of hassle is to cross from Ft. Lauderdale or Lake Worth Inlet. Then you dont have to sometimes sit and wait it out for any rage in the northern 'passes' to settle before entering the Abacos from the north.

;-)


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

Great info - thanks! 

I'm actually researching 'offshore passage training routes' on which to sail with student clients out of NE Florida. Bermuda looks good at just over 1000 nm, Bermuda to Bahamas at about 1000 nm and St Augustine to Bahamas (Abacos or point south) at 400 to 550 nm.

Time of year, wind and weather windows would all dictate the itinerary and provide passage choices for the offshore training.

Thanks!


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## CaptTony (May 22, 2011)

malyea said:


> Would like to hear from anyone who has done the passage in this manner. 7 to 14 days offshore is fine.


If you are willing to be out on the water that long, you might as well go all the way to 65 degrees longitude and head for the Virgin Islands. You can make it in 14 days or less. Once you turn south you should pick up the trades in a couple of days. Until then, it's mostly motoring.

Of course, right now we are at the height of the hurricane season and all the area in which you are talking about sailing is right on the frequent track of hurricanes.


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## canucksailorguy (Mar 2, 2006)

> I'm actually researching 'offshore passage training routes' on which to sail with student clients


Maybe I'm missing something here - the bulk of the comments has been that this isn't the best idea, but you want to take student clients on this route? Perhaps you could explain the rationale behind this?
I don't know the Abacos, but from my experience in the Gulf Stream and the Bahamas, I've learned that one doesn't fight against the conditions, one works with them to achieve the safest and most comfortable passage one can. It's easy enough to get into trouble doing the smart thing on the water - why push your luck?


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

malyea said:


> Starting to plan an offshore passage from NE Florida to the Abacos. My preferred route is all offshore avoiding the 'standard sail south to Ft Lauderdale and head east'.
> 
> The plan is head east out of St Augustine to cross the stream then head south east to leave Little Bahamas Bank well to starboard keeping in deep water to gain enough southing to then make landfall from east to west in the Abacos.
> 
> ...


 The route you are planning used to be commonly used, back when there were sailing ships and sailing men. If you have a well-found bluewater-capeable boat, and good crew, you should be able to do it. Follow the advice about having the sun at your back and polaroid sunglasses.

A little "inspirational reading" --

"The boat was a fine Maine schooner of 250 tons.
At 4:30 in the afternoon of Monday, September 3, 1877, she was towed [from New York City docks] into the stream and set sail to a fresh west-northwest breeze. It was the season for hurricanes in the West Indies, but that meant nothing to us, and little more to Captain Seavey, who had not experienced one, and had not been in the Florida Straits. "Where ignorance is bliss ---" at any rate we were free of the anxiety we might legitimately have felt, and ready to enjoy the voyage.

It was a comfortable one, and I can still feel the thirsty fibers of my being drinking in the world of sea and sky, long dreamed of, yet new. On Wednesday we sighted a ship, a brig, and several schooners...

Moderate weather yielded to a westerly squall, and then a fine northeast breeze set us well across the Gulf Stream, its indigo rollers flashing in the sun like great beds of sapphire, alive with the silver gleam of flying fish. Monday was calm, with a heavy sea, and the main-sheet block parted company with the boom under the violent slatting of the sail.

There followed a strenuous time, the boom sweeping wildly to and fro, threatening the backstays, while the whole crew tried to pass rope's ends around it as it swung. It was secured at last without damage, and that evening we had a good assortment of yarns about similar experiences.

There were good breezes Tuesday and Wednesday, and Captain Seavey announced Abaco Light due in sight about one o'clock Thursday morning. At 1:15 it appeared -- a remarkably good landfall -- and at 7:00 we passed the Hole in the Wall, and had a good look through it. It is an opening in the narrow, wall-like cliff of stone on the south end of Abaco Island, which has given its name to the whole neighborhood, and in fact to this route into the Gulf of Mexico."

- from "The Commodore's Story", Ralph Munroe & Vince Gilpin

"Climate is what you expect (and hope for); 
weather is what you get." --- anonymous

Fair winds, and have fun!
--- Gary


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

CaptTony said:


> If you are willing to be out on the water that long, you might as well go all the way to 65 degrees longitude and head for the Virgin Islands. You can make it in 14 days or less. Once you turn south you should pick up the trades in a couple of days. Until then, it's mostly motoring.
> 
> Of course, right now we are at the height of the hurricane season and all the area in which you are talking about sailing is right on the frequent track of hurricanes.


Please tell us you are not planning doing this on a 30' Hunter! I wouldn't like to try that trip on a 60' Swan without a professional crew and I've been deep water sailing for half a century. As mentioned above, not only do you need to cross the Gulfstream, the west setting current across the top of the Abacos, but you also have the Antilles Current running north along the eastern side of the Bahamas.
Heading SE out of Fla in even an easterly, is tough for most sailboats to do and when you add ocean swells and the currents you will encounter, you most likely will not make much headway in any direction you'd like to go.
But hey, I'm as game as the next guy, so if you do it, please come back here and let us all know how wrong we were. Perhaps this "climate change" thing will be good for something.


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

capta said:


> Please tell us you are not planning doing this on a 30' Hunter! I wouldn't like to try that trip on a 60' Swan without a professional crew and I've been deep water sailing for half a century.


No, in fact I'm shopping for an older 38' to 42' boat that can be offshore ready for no more than $100k to use as my schools passage training platform. I'm researching good offshore training routes originating in St Augustine such as STA to Charleston, Bermuda, Abacos, etc. I'm on the 2 year plan with the expected opening of Four Points Sailing to be sometime late 2015.

Thanks and more thoughts appreciated.


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## dinodino (Dec 9, 2002)

You should open a separate thread about your $100k offshore boat plan.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

malyea said:


> ...
> 
> Time of year, wind and weather windows would all dictate the itinerary and provide passage choices for the offshore training.
> 
> Thanks!


But apparently not the advice of people with more experience if it doesn't suit your itinerary.

Sorry, but it sounds like you started this thread not so much for route advice but to plug your as-yet-to-open offshore sailing enterprise.


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## Group9 (Oct 3, 2010)

Someone has found the thorny path to the Bahamas!


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

DRFerron said:


> But apparently not the advice of people with more experience if it doesn't suit your itinerary.
> 
> Sorry, but it sounds like you started this thread not so much for route advice but to plug your as-yet-to-open offshore sailing enterprise.


Well...no...'plugging' my future enterprise, as you say, was just a way to illustrate why my intent for the thread was to specifically discuss offshore routes originating from NE Florida - and not a pro/con discussion on the more common routes from Florida to the Bahamas.

Thanks


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

malyea said:


> Well...no...'plugging' my future enterprise, as you say, was just a way to illustrate why my intent for the thread was to specifically discuss offshore routes originating from NE Florida - and not a pro/con discussion on the more common routes from Florida to the Bahamas.
> 
> Thanks


Perhaps you need to think outside the box. Considering that getting from the Bahamas to St. Augustine is far less problematic than the reverse, perhaps your sail training could involve splitting a circuit between two groups of student crews. One to sail the yacht south from St. Augustine coast-wise to perhaps Ft. Lauderdale, learning boat handling and coastal navigation, and departing there for say West End for some off-shore and then Island Cruising after which they depart via air and a new crew arrives. The second crew cruises the islands learning boat handling and coastal navigation (presumably) and then departs West End (perhaps) for St. Augustine for some off-shore training. Of course, the big variable with this scheme will be weather as a Gulf Stream passage in any winds with a northerly component is certain to be very uncomfortable at best and, for novice crew, likely fairly frightening.

A third alternative is simply recognizing that St. Augustine isn't particularly conducive to your plans if they must include passages to the Bahamas and perhaps rethinking your base of operations to, say, Dinner Key Marina, Key Biscayne or some locale more suitable. And frankly, for the novice, a trip to no further than Bimini/Honeymoon Harbor/Cat Key would be no less enjoyable (and perhaps more-so) than a longer harder more tiring slog, that leaves less time of "play", eh?

FWIW...


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## luv4sailin (Jul 3, 2006)

Re: s/v HyLyte's posting:

Excellent, excellent observations! 

One additional thought:

Clients have schedules but off shore sailors can't. Add that concept to the Gulf Stream and then add a Northerly and you have either (1) clients sitting the harbor pissed that they have wasted their time/money or (2) clients and instructor(s) getting their clocks cleaned in the stream. Neither makes for a viable business plan. I've seen boats sit here in Miami for weeks waiting for a southerly in order to sail across the Gulf Stream. Please include these thoughts in you business planning or I fear the business will be short lived.


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

Given the many variables of client skill sets, desired learning objectives, time frames, seasonal patterns and weather windows - I plan to develop a 'curriculum' comprised of a variety of 'passage options' that can be flexed to as appropriate. 

While some clients may prefer to experience the common ICW south to FLL and cross to West End route, I'm currently more focused on researching pertinent information on which to round out the curriculum with offshore passage making options leaving from NE Florida -not to discount the ditch south bound, but to round out the program with offshore options.

Thanks


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## orthomartin (Oct 21, 2006)

Melyea, I may get some grief by others but I see no significant issue with your plan. First a short trip like the one proposed is barely what I would even call a "passage". You're talking 300nm or less and weather forecasting is generally very good for the two (three at most) days you will need. I have come down offshore from much further north (Hampton Va) and it is no big deal. Sometimes it's fun to take a more challenging route that requires more tack changes and decision making.
Your draft of course will play a big role in where you enter but just be sure to have the Explorer ChartBook for north Bahama and you will be fine. There are obviously only a finite number of places you can safely enter but much of that will depend on where you find yourself as you approach. Of course only enter in the daytime but that is a given.
BTW I just finished sailing around the world and I think the Bahamas are some of the best cruising grounds anywhere!


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## JHK (May 30, 2015)

Crossed both directions on Dean 39 cat. Trip from St. Augustine direct to Abacos, had a nasty 20 hour storm from the south first night crossing the stream, 3 of the 4 crew out of commision with sea seasickness, (it was GREAT!) Next day had very large 20 a 30 swells with light winds 4th crewmember sick (it wasn't great), Got into to the Gulfstream back current heading east above the Abacos, surfed crossed into Abacos in poorly marked channel (nail biting). 

Trip back was a breeze, similar course lighter winds.

Wouldn't recommend unless in heavy narrow vessel that beats well into the wind, while most moderate displacement wide boats will beat the heck out of the crew.

Other route considered crossing St.aug. to Northern Bahamas, and frequently used my our old yacht club members, with east winds,was to hug the Florida coast inside the GulfStream getting back eddies of up to 1-2 mph current then cross near Ft Pierce.


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## malyea (Aug 12, 2009)

Thanks for all the varied opinions. Recently purchased a 1987 Irwin 43 currently getting her refitted for offshore work. Cheers!


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