# Small Marine Generator?



## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Because I want to stay out of marinas, the refrigerator has a considerable consumption and my wife will not pass without it, I am looking at ways to be auto-sufficient.

I had a look at solar panels but it seems that what i want is not yet on the market, the wind generators don't work without wind, so the more reasonable choice seems to be a small and high efficient diesel generator.

I had a look at the market and the small I could find was this one:










Well they have lighter models but the wide of this one is unbeatable: 32cms

That means I can just mount it in one of the cabins, behind the engine, on the side, without taking too much space from the cabin.

Paguro 3000 diesel marine generator, 2.8kW of continuous, quiet, reliable, on board power - Advance Yacht Systems Limited

Well, this is nice, but not cheap, this one costs over 6000€ plus VAT.

Baltic Machinery - naudotos ir naujos Japonikos technikos importas-eksportas, pardavimas, remontas, konsultacijos.

Two questions:

Does anybody have experience with these generators?

Do you know or have experience with something smaller or less expensive?


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

$8000 for just the unit plus the labor to install it (haulout, 2 thru-hulls, raw water strainer, etc)...I'm seeing this as a $10,000 project...wow, pricey!!!


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## faisond (Apr 18, 2006)

Cheeck out NextGen. Considerably cheaper. Since their units are belt driven, they may be able to furnish a 50hz model if that's what you need. You'd need to check with them. I put a 5.5 kW unit in my boat (self-installed) for about $5k - including haul out, through hulls, strainers, wiring, etc.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

faisond said:


> Cheeck out NextGen. Considerably cheaper. Since their units are belt driven, they may be able to furnish a 50hz model if that's what you need. You'd need to check with them. I put a 5.5 kW unit in my boat (self-installed) for about $5k - including haul out, through hulls, strainers, wiring, etc.


The smaller I can find is this one:

http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf

It is much wider: 32.0cm to 45.7. Almost more 14cm and that difference is very important in what concerns the space where I want to put it.

But I agree, it is a big difference in price

Regards

Paulo


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Silly question? Do you have 12 volt refrigeration? It would be the best route to go with solar and improved battery banks if you need them. 
Fair winds!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Paulo,

Why the objection to solar ? Taking up too much space perhaps ? 

We do have solar (two x 185w panels) plus wind generator and probably more importantly a Balmar Six Series (150ah) alternator in addition to the standard. Portable generator as well but we have never used it. Wind is of course noisy and that is irritating but we only use it when no sun. We also find that we need to run the engine an hour a day for hot water and this tops up the batteries where necessary. We have never gone below 80% battery capacity. 

Yes we are running refrigerator 24 hours a day when on board.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

If you need a generator and are limited on space, consider an engine driven unit. We have a Seapower 5KW unit on our Yanmar. Works great and takes up very little space. I believe they are made by MEPS out of Dallas, TX.

We actually use it very little as our solar and wind generation keep everything running.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Why not just go to 6 volts and increase you battery ah in the same or similar space.?. Would take a lot of batteries to equal $8000. For refrigeration that will suffice. Course if you need to run AC or heat at anchor thats a different story

I reinsulated the refrigerator box and al;so increased our ah. Our refrigerator diet is about 55 ah on the hottest of days (95 degrees) in the Chesapeake. We carry 6- 6 volt agm or about 660 ah....or about 330 usable. Adding all the other elctric we use, LED lights (Alpenglow), Charplotter, pumps our daily electrical diet is about 100-110 ah per day. We can do three days with no charging easily.

With Mainsails advice I added a high capactity alternator (120 elctromax) so it will charge 85% of that back up in less than2 hopurs of engine running. I will eventualyy purt a couple of 135 panels on which would add 70 ah per day back in and decrease the deficit.

Dave


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

deniseO30 said:


> Silly question? Do you have 12 volt refrigeration? It would be the best route to go with solar and improved battery banks if you need them.
> Fair winds!


Thanks! I have already an improved battery bank: 4 to a 41ft is a lot. Solar energy is not enough to run a refrigerator, or at least I don't think so.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tdw said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Why the objection to solar ? Taking up too much space perhaps ?
> 
> ...


Not an objection but I don't want to have directional panels. The only way to have decent power with solar energy is with directional panels and I don't want that. Anyway, 370w on solar energy is a lot even if you only get a percentage of that on normal use.

I had two alternators on the other boat and that kind of solved the problem, but on this boat there is no space for two alternators.

I guess you got most of the energy for running the engine one hour a day with a little help from the solar panels.

I am going to revise all electronic of the boat that is badly mounted and waste a lot of energy. The boat has already led illumination but I bet the two refrigerators waste a lot of juice.

Portable generators are dangerous in a boat and has I don't have the possibility of having two alternators, I think the best solution would be a small efficient marine generator. They waste very little (1l/h) and running an hour a day would be more than enough for everything.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

chef2sail said:


> Why not just go to 6 volts and increase you battery ah in the same or similar space.?. Would take a lot of batteries to equal $8000. For refrigeration that will suffice. Course if you need to run AC or heat at anchor thats a different story
> 
> I reinsulated the refrigerator box and al;so increased our ah. Our refrigerator diet is about 55 ah on the hottest of days (95 degrees) in the Chesapeake. We carry 6- 6 volt agm or about 660 ah....or about 330 usable. Adding all the other elctric we use, LED lights (Alpenglow), Charplotter, pumps our daily electrical diet is about 100-110 ah per day. We can do three days with no charging easily.
> 
> ...


Some suggestions!! But I really think that If I can afford it the best solution is to maximaze the efficiency of what I have and add a small generator, specially because the one I posted really fits on the boat and will not take much space from the cabin that would be used mostly for storage anyway.
Not that I use much energy: I don't want AC and I have webasto heating, but I want to have plenty of energy for the refrigerator and not to worry about the lights at night and maybe listen a bit of music. Bottom point I don't want to worry about energy as I used too on the other boat

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

treilley said:


> If you need a generator and are limited on space, consider an engine driven unit. We have a Seapower 5KW unit on our Yanmar. Works great and takes up very little space. I believe they are made by MEPS out of Dallas, TX.
> 
> We actually use it very little as our solar and wind generation keep everything running.


That seems interesting but I don't know of what you are talking about and their site says nothing  Probably there will not be space for it on the engine "room".

RFTW Index

Regards

Paulo


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

PCP said:


> Not an objection but I don't want to have directional panels. The only way to have decent power with solar energy is with directional panels and I don't want that. Anyway, 370w on solar energy is a lot even if you only get a percentage of that on normal use.
> 
> I had two alternators on the other boat and that kind of solved the problem, but on this boat there is no space for two alternators.
> 
> ...


Paulo, it may be that the engine running an hour a day does in fact keep everything charged up but we are always going to be doing that, presuming we want hot water. The way I figure it is that with two (non directional) panels and a couple of litres of diesel we get by pretty well and our fridge does have a freezer, albeit a small one.
Of course you are absolutely correct re portable generators. As I said, we've never used it, don't even keep it on board. If I was to go generator then I'd go the way you are thinking looking for the smallest diesel operated unit I could find. Btw ... how many hours a day do you expect to use it ?

Andrew


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

some numbers to ponder;
Example

12 cu ft refrigerator box with 3" insulation

Step 3 From tables, estimated heat leak is 51.2 watts/hour

Step 4 Estimated run time per hour = 51.2/132 = 0.38 hours/hour

Step 5 Estimated current draw = 0.38 x 4.5 = 1.74 amp-hours/hour

Step 6 Estimated daily consumption = 1.74 x 24 = 41.9 amp-hours/24 hours

Consumption Guide


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

PCP said:


> That seems interesting but I don't know of what you are talking about and their site says nothing  Probably there will not be space for it on the engine "room".
> 
> RFTW Index
> 
> ...


Paulo, maybe they no longer make them but you should call them. The generator on my engine is about 8 inches in diameter and 10 inches long.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tdw said:


> ... If I was to go generator then I'd go the way you are thinking looking for the smallest diesel operated unit I could find. Btw ... how many hours a day do you expect to use it ?
> 
> Andrew


Andrews, that's the idea. I have been doing quite a search and learning about it.

In fact due to my limited consumption I learned that the best thing I could have have is a DC generator (12V) directly charging the batteries. It would be like having a super efficient small engine wasting less than a liter hour an producing 160 A at 12V. That means more than 2 times the efficiency of the engine alternator with less consumption and a lot less noise.

As I have said I cannot put two alternators on the engine but even if I could, because the engine (40hp) is not too much for 8000kg, it would take power from the engine even when I don' need to charge anything and I don't want that.

Regarding the time I would use it I have no idea, but I guess not much, maybe a hour, an hour a half a day, if I do not use the main engine that day. This engines come with a possibility of having an automatic control and the connect themselves when the batteries come to a certain level and work till they are full again, so I would not have to care about that, that is just what I want: We could read at night and hear music without being afraid of wasting too much battery. The idea is to have an easy living

The problem is that as I said, the DC chargers are rare: Fisher Panda has one, that delivers also AC but the only really small one I can find on the market is this one:

D.C. Traveller | HFL

I am waiting them to send me information and prices, but I have found out that these little babies are expensive and that Panduro that I have posted first is not expensive if compared with the competition.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

deniseO30 said:


> some numbers to ponder;
> Example
> 
> 12 cu ft refrigerator box with 3" insulation
> ...


Cool

Some more interesting information:

I think it is really neat, I have saved it and I will look carefully at it later. It will deserve it. That's a book about electrical consumption, batteries and generators in a boat:

http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Book-EN-EnergyUnlimited.pdf

You can save it, it is a PDF.

This is also a very interesting document, a test with many generators, but not any test, but one done by specialists. It teach you a lot about generators and what to look for.

http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/VE_Marine_generator_test_RVA_07-jan-2008.pdf

Regards

Paulo


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Paulo : I read and re-read your posts and although I am sure I must be misunderstanding, it appears that you intend to run a portable diesel generator inside your boat.

If I have read correctly I strongly suggest you sleep on deck when it's running or you will not be waking up in the morning.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

boatpoker said:


> Paulo : I read and re-read your posts and although I am sure I must be misunderstanding, it appears that you intend to run a portable diesel generator inside your boat.
> 
> If I have read correctly I strongly suggest you sleep on deck when it's running or you will not be waking up in the morning.


You have to read again . The small diesel generators (the ones I have posted) are not portable (they weight about 70/85 kg) they are marine generators, cooled with sea water and the exhaust is carried to the outside. They comply with U.S. Coast Guard Title 33 CFR 183.410.

They are like the big ones (in what regards safety), only in a smaller size.

D.C. Traveller | HFL

Volpi Marine Generators

http://site.continentalgenerators.com/spec-sheets/volpi-40.pdf

Regards

Paulo


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## dugsmith98 (Sep 14, 2009)

faisond said:


> Cheeck out NextGen. Considerably cheaper. Since their units are belt driven, they may be able to furnish a 50hz model if that's what you need. You'd need to check with them. I put a 5.5 kW unit in my boat (self-installed) for about $5k - including haul out, through hulls, strainers, wiring, etc.


Where did you find the gererator for that price? I am being quoted around 8K for the 5.5 nextgen.
Thanks, Doug


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

A question! 

If you have an AC charger they will charge your batteries through the boat 220V charger that is normally a 50 to 80A charger.

If you get a DC direct charger they will charge directly your batteries with 12V with an Amperage that can go from 100 to 200A.

Any problem in charging the batteries with a superior Amperage?


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

My plan (such as it is)...

So, I've always had factory installed generators on boats and never worried about power consumption, but this time I've opted not ($16,000 option).

My plan is to add battery storage capacity, if necessary and perhaps occasionally carry my home Honda portable on longer trips for the occasional daytime boost if I'm lucky enough to not need the auxillary for days on end. 

Since I'll be primarly sailing the Chesapeake, I could always spend a night in a marina if I really need to replenish or if the crew absolutely needs A/C.

Make sense for my intended use?


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

BCC1 said:


> My plan (such as it is)...
> 
> So, I've always had factory installed generators on boats and never worried about power consumption, but this time I've opted not ($16,000 option).
> 
> ...


Not the portable generator. They are very dangerous in a boat.

If you want to have autonomy and stay for more than 2 or 3 days out of marinas the best solution is to add the batteries you have space for (probably 4 in all) and get the second alternator option in your engine.

The Yanmar 3JH5E come standard with a 80A alternator but as an option for a second alternator mounted on the engine ( 80 or 130A).

With 210A charging you will only need to run the engine for an hour a day, or less, depending on your consumption, to have the batteries charged.

Get that second alternator and make sure they leave space for it. It is the easiest and less expensive solution, assuming you are not using air conditioned. If you are you need a generator.

Take a look a look at the file of your engine. In small letters in the end you have the options.

http://us.yanmar.com/media/ext/uploaded/397ab248-e8da-4a50-af5e-8523552b8641/3JH5E_Brochure.pdf

Regards

Paulo


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

PCP said:


> Not the portable generator. They are very dangerous in a boat.
> 
> If you want to have autonomy and stay for more than 2 or 3 days out of marinas the best solution is to add the batteries you have space for (probably 4 in all) and get the second alternator option in your engine.
> 
> ...


Paulo,

Thanks for responding and sorry for the thread hijack. I appreciate and will take your advice.

BCC


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

I've seen these little guys at a shop in Seattle and at the boat show. The look very slick and are VERY small. They make AC and DC marine generators.

Fischer Panda Diesel Marine Generators

MedSailor

P.S. Please take care to insulate and soundproof it as much as possible and don't run it in the early AM or during/after cocktail hour. You're a Sailnetter, and I don't want to hate you.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Here is another: "Mastervolt Generators."

Sure Marine (There is a link on their home page)

Sure Marine is a great company to deal with BTW. Friendly, knowledgeable, dependable etc. Highly recommended shop.

MedSailor


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

MedSailor said:


> I've seen these little guys at a shop in Seattle and at the boat show. The look very slick and are VERY small. They make AC and DC marine generators.
> 
> Fischer Panda Diesel Marine Generators
> 
> ...


The DC one is too big for me...and the prices are just too high, even if I don't have doubts about their quality. They have probably the best small generators and that's why they are dominating the European market, with those prices and all.

The smallest one is an AC generator (4000s) with the right size but it cost 5858€ plus 23% VAT and you have to consider price of install.

The first DC generator (too big) is the AGT 4000 and it cost 8354€ plus 23% VAT more installation costs.

For DC energy, using the same engine Panduro is not so expensive but on that size the only one I found with DC energy is a HFL one (same engine). I am waiting for their price.

Regards

Paulo


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

PCP said:


> A question!
> 
> If you have an AC charger they will charge your batteries through the boat 220V charger that is normally a 50 to 80A charger.
> 
> ...


Paulo.. somewhere on this site there are some excellent posts by Mainesail, Bill T and others about what batteries can accept and how much amperage you can try to 'push' into them. There are definite limits, I believe and they vary with battery type and condition (AGM vs Flooded, etc)

I suspect few will accept the upper range of what you're asking about..

Here's one I found that may address your question.. read a few posts down..

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/82382-battery-equalization-amperage.html


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Faster said:


> Paulo.. somewhere on this site there are some excellent posts by Mainesail, Bill T and others about what batteries can accept and how much amperage you can try to 'push' into them. There are definite limits, I believe and they vary with battery type and condition (AGM vs Flooded, etc)
> 
> I suspect few will accept the upper range of what you're asking about..
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip Faster. The wisdom of MainSail is here:

Battery Acceptance Observations - SailboatOwners.com

MedSailor


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Thanks Faster and Med sailor. That was just the information I wanted, via Mainsail. But Faster I have no doubt that a second alternator can give a faster charge if the batteries can handle it. On my previous boat I had two alternators and I was complaining to the guys from Bavaria that there should be some problem with my 220 charger because the engine could charge the batteries in almost half the time.

They checked it, saw the amperage and say that it was normal. I had an 340 Amp bank and according with those 20% of the total capacity for the size of the alternator it should not happen, since that gives a 64A alternator and that should be about the amperage of the 220 charger (maybe 50A) and about the size of the engine alternator (maybe also 50 A).

Now if we consider what Bamar says regarding the size of the alternator, 20% to 40% of the total bank amperage, then 20% is just a minimal value and that explains Why I had much better results with the two alternators (maybe a total of 110 A), about 30% of the battery bank.

There is also another important thing to consider: on a Alternator the stated amperage is only produced at the operating RPM. So if you go at cruising speed you will get close to the given Amp, but if you are at anchor running the engine a bit up idle (1200/1300RPM) to charge batteries you are only getting half of that if that much.

If the objective is charging a 4X120A bank of batteries at 1200rpm (while at anchor) than you need 20% x 2 of the total battery bank. For 480A that is a 192 Amp alternator, or 240 alternator if we consider 25%.

In what concerns using a dedicated DC generator the problem of operating RPM is not there because it can be run at operating speed with not much noise and little fuel waste.

Some can even vary speed regarding the needed charge and cut off and connect themselves when needed:

*"The new DC alternative from HFL is based on a regulation system
whereby the operation of the diesel charger is automatically controlled by the state of the battery.

Whenever 12 or 24v consumers are used the battery voltage will drop dramatically. Once the batteries have reached a preset voltage, the diesel charger will automatically cut in, replenishing the batteries up to 14v or 28v respectively, then switch off again automatically.

A DC generator is capable of providing output via its alternator over a wide set of operating conditions, with the engine speed being variable offering fuel economy and lower service requirements."*

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=839671

A typical small generator will waste also much less diesel than the alternators run by the engine, maybe 3 times less.

Thanks to Mainsail numbers I can now calculate what I need in what regardes the power of a DC generator for my boat that has a 400 Amp battery bank : considering 80% efficiency and considering 25% of the size of the bank it will give 125 Amp.

Bottom point, that is about the power small DC generators provide in amperage. I guess that the ones that are doing them know what they are doing

D.C. Traveller | HFL

But if I was getting that juice from alternators connected to the boat engine, while at anchor, I would need to get the same (considering half efficiency at slow RPM), a 200 to 250 Amp alternator, I mean to get max efficiency on the battery charging, assuming the boat engine a bit over idle. That's is also why boat engine manufacturers provide a second alternator that with the first can produce that kind of juice, I mean, in the case of the 40 hp Yanmar, 210A.

Nice to know that the guys on Yanmar also know what they are doing

Regards

Paulo


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## stevensuf (Feb 26, 2012)

agms can be charged at a much higher rate than normal lead acids which start to boil at anything over 20% capacity charge rate


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Some more infomation regarding charging batteries:

*9. Battery Charging - Remember you must put back the energy you use immediately. If you don't the battery sulfates and that affects performance and longevity.

The alternator is a battery charger. It works well if the battery is not deeply discharged. The alternator tends to overcharge batteries that are very low and the overcharge can damage batteries. In fact an engine starting battery on average has only about 10 deep cycles available when recharged by an alternator.

Batteries like to be charged in a certain way, especially when they have been deeply discharged. This type of charging is called 3 step regulated charging. Please note that only special SMART CHARGERS using computer technology can perform 3 step charging techniques. You don't find these types of chargers in parts stores and Wal-Marts. The first step is bulk charging where up to 80% of the battery energy capacity is replaced by the charger at the maximum voltage and current amp rating of the charger.

When the battery voltage reaches 14.4 volts this begins the absorption charge step. This is where the voltage is held at a constant 14.4 volts and the current (amps) declines until the battery is 98% charged. Next comes the Float Step. This is a regulated voltage of not more than 13.4 volts and usually less than 1 amp of current. This in time will bring the battery to 100% charged or close to it.

The float charge will not boil or heat batteries but will maintain the batteries at 100% readiness and prevent cycling during long term inactivity. Some Gel Cell and AGM batteries may require special settings or chargers.*

BatteryStuff Articles | Guide to Understanding Flooded, AGM, and Gel Batteries


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

stevensuf said:


> agms can be charged at a much higher rate than normal lead acids which start to boil at anything over 20% capacity charge rate


Uau!!!!! You are right but I would never imagined the difference:

Like 10 times faster and you have to watch out because if the alternator is a weak one it they can burn the alternator. 

By the way, Gel batteries can also be charged faster, 2 times faster:










Some more information about AGM batteries:

*
Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) batteries are the latest step in the evolution of lead-acid batteries. Instead of using a gel, an AGM uses a fiberglass like separator to hold the electrolyte in place. The physical bond between the separator fibers, the lead plates, and the container make AGMs spill-proof and the most vibration and impact resistant lead-acid batteries available today. Even better, AGMs use almost the same voltage set-points as flooded cells and thus can be used as drop-in replacements for flooded cells.

Basically, an AGM can do anything a Gel-cell can, only better. However, since they are also sealed, charging has to be controlled carefully or they too can be ruined in short order.

Gel and Absorbed Glass Mat batteries are relative newcomers but are rapdily gaining acceptance. There are some very compelling reasons to use VRLAs:

Gel and Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) batteries can dispense charge at a higher rate than flooded cells due to their lower Peukerts exponent. Deep-cycle Flooded Cells cannot deliver more than 25% of their rated amp-hour capacity in amps without plummeting Available Capacity.

Deep-Cycle Flooded cell battery manufacturers recommend a 4 to 1 ratio between battery bank size and the largest load encountered on board.
AGM and Gel cell manufacturers recommend a ratio of at least 3 to 1, a significant difference for loads such as the engine starter or windlass.

....

Gel cells and AGMs require no maintenance once the charging system has been properly set up. No equalization charges (usually), no electrolyte to replenish, no specific gravity checks, no additional safety gear to carry on board in order to protect yourself. If you want to be anal retentive about VRLAs you can load test them. However, proper charge control and protection is much more important with VRLAs because once fried it is impossible to revive them.

.....

The charge acceptance of AGMs can burn up an alternator if the charging system is not adequate for extended runtimes at full power. The larger the battery bank and the harder the charger is made to work, the more attention I would pay to ensuring that the charging system can handle the currents for extended periods of time. This caveat does not really apply to low-duty applications like starter banks, since they usually need so little charge to be topped up. Even the puny alternators found in Jet Skis should be able to handler an AGM starter battery, as long as that battery is just used for that - starting.

On the other hand, if you need a large house bank and want to rely on a single charge source for much of the power, I'd aim for a high quality charge system from a respected company such as Ample Power, Balmar, Ferris, Hehr, JackRabbit Marine, SALT, etc. Ensure that the alternator receives enough cooling air as a hot alternator will produce less energy than a cool one and last longer to boot.

AGMs and to a lesser extent gel cell systems can benefit from using the thermal alternator protection offered by the Balmar MaxCharge series of regulators, particularly if you expect to bulk charge your system for extended periods of time and don't have good engine compartment ventilation.

The higher charge efficiency of AGMs allows you to recharge with less energy: Flooded cells convert 15-20% of the electrical energy into heat instead of potential power. Gel-cells lose 10-16% but AGMs as little as 4%. The higher charge efficiency of AGMs can contribute to significant savings when it comes to the use of expensive renewable energy sources (wind generators, solar panels, etc.) as your charging system can be 15% smaller (or just charge faster).

While flooded cells lose up to 1% per day due to self-discharge, VRLAs lose 1-3% per month. Why employ a solar charger to trickle-charge your battery banks if you don't have to?*

Battery Types: Flooded versus AGM and Gel

Impressive, I am convinced

Thanks for the tip!

Regards

Paulo


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