# Question regarding Rocna Anchor's Roll Bar



## Capt. Grimek (Oct 18, 2012)

I've been looking at Rocnas on the dock and even though the plow portion looks good, that tall curved roll bar cries out one big concern for me. A friend and local broker said he had the same concerns looking at them.

My question is: When anchored in a blow and less seamanlike owner's boats
are dragging down on your location, aren't those tall semi-circular roll bars
just "begging" for a neighbor's dragging anchor fluke or plow tip to enter, continue dragging enough to pull out your anchor? Or at the least tip it on it's side enough that the neighbor's anchor won't let yours reset?

I can't imagine this not being a risk. Can owners explain why this would not be
of concern?

I've been using a CQR oversized for over 30 years in the Pacific N.W. in trying situations and have no desire to change, but I'm interested in looking over the "new generation" anchors to see what they offer.
That "hoop" on the Rocna raised our eyebrows. 

For WA State and B.C. sailors here, it's Nanaimo,B.C./ Newcastle Is. Anchorage that comes to mind primarily. Seen many people drag in a S.W.er there and many people don't use adequate scope, etc. We haven't ever dragged in 30 years other than 2 initial "trial" sets. It' the other guy I'm worried about....so far ;-)


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

The chances of the anchor of your neighbor perfectly intersecting the hoop on your anchor is probably much less than their anchor with a short scope scooping up your chain.

Lets say you have 50 feet of chain on the bottom and the hoop on the top of your anchor is about a foot. You do the math.

So the real question is if the hoop will help your anchor rotate properly to dig in.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

The 'roll' bar helps the anchor when it is first deployed, it (obviously) is intended to roll the anchor over and get the point down.
After that all of these new generation anchors are deep digging, they little burrow down. Think feet not inches. 

Besides, the roll bar is a square foot or so of 'target', your whole rode can be snagged and then pulled sideways and lifted. 
Don't worry the small stuff, worry the big.


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## Capt. Grimek (Oct 18, 2012)

I hear what you're saying about the anchor rode being the bigger target by far, but with a CQR I'd think it would very likely rotate as it turns from the other boat's dragged anchor. 
I've seen boats stopped after hooking onto a properly anchored vessel's chain.

The roll bar on the anchor is right "there" at the anchor with direct upward and back force applied where a trip line would be attached to purposely dislodge the anchor.
Do the Rocnos dig deep enough to completely bury the roll bar?
Thanks.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Depth of set depends on bottom. 
Google the subject for your own peace of mind. 

Also google rocna's quality of steel issues.


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## Capt. Grimek (Oct 18, 2012)

Not questioning their construction/strength. They sound impressive in both the R&D and production. I'll do as you suggest and google around more and watch this coming season in anchorages to see how they work under use.

They've only become known to me very recently as we're buying a smaller boat as for our coming old(er) age.
Selling our Fisher 37 P.H. to purchase a late 80's Pacific Seacraft 31 and new boat got me thinking of looking into the "new gen." anchors. 

Our home port is Anacortes, WA and we mostly have mud/clay bottom around here to bury the "hooks" in. I must be nuts to get back out into the weather after 14 yrs. "inside" but I'll be able to single hand again and take friends out for a daysail much more often.

Thanks for the responses.


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## mitchbrown (Jan 21, 2009)

Capt G

I have been sailing around the Anacortes / San Juan Island area for the past 10 years, the best holding anchor ive used in these muddy ancorages is a Danforth. On my current boat (Bene 39) I have a Delta which is similar in shape to the Rocna, except for the roll bar It seems to hold okay but it has been a problem getting it to set at times. It took 4 times to set it at Roach Harbor this summer. Im thinking the Fortress anchor is worth looking at for this area, similar to the Danforth but light aluminum alloy. I will probably get one for a stern anchor, test it out for a while, If i like it I'll mount it on the bow roller. I probably should not have replied to your post since i have no experience with the Rocna and your question was about the Rocna and it's roll bar, but the Fortress is a new generation anchor as well, and in this area i think its worth a close look

Mitch


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

As an aside, CG, BC's favourite 'dragging ground' at Newcastle is now mostly a mooring buoy field.. the park people installed them over last winter. They seem well used and appear to be addressing the various issues that plagued that bay - and anchoring/inside among the new buoys is forbidden (in all of Mark Bay).


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Check Mainesail's test of anchors.

We have a Rocna and it is the best all round anchor I have ever used. Manson Supreme and the newest of the new gen anchors Mantus are similar designs. Mantus can be stowed apart. Main advantage is their resetiing ability also.

Dave


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Used a CQR and others for close to 40 years and have used a Manson Supreme for the past almost 30,000 miles and hundreds of nights anchoring including places like Easter Island where you are anchoring in close to 50' in virtually the open ocean. Would not go back to one of the traditional anchors for sure. A friend spent a year cruising in Thailand and wanted to sell a 45 lb CQR. Said you could not give them away there. 

If the bottom is soft sand or mud and it is windy enough for boats to drag the whole anchor including roll bar will be buried. Lots of things in cruising to worry about. This isn't one of them.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

mitchbrown said:


> I probably should not have replied to your post since i have no experience with the Rocna and your question was about the Rocna and it's roll  bar, but the Fortress is a new generation anchor as well, and in this area i think its worth a close look
> 
> Mitch


Minor point, but I'd hardly classify the Fortress as a "New Generation Anchor"

Great anchor, no question, but it's basically a lightweight, adjustable, stowable Danforth - using a time-tested design that's been around for decades...


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## Capt. Grimek (Oct 18, 2012)

Thanks for the additional responses. It's great to hear from users. 
Not to be argumentative or troll-y, I just don't get the dissatisfaction with CQRs at least in the PNW. I've been using a 45lb.er on both a Mariah 31 Pacific Seacraft) and our now for sale Fisher 37. We've never dragged after an initial set and have left the boat for hours even at times when an unpredicted gale came up. We've been anchored out near Johnstone Strait
in 4 ft. fetch for three days and nights with nowhere else to go and we did fine. (Actually the dock at Shoal Bay on E. Thurlow was only about 50' away
but there was no way to get there safely). 
That kind of success over 3 decades makes me extremely reluctant to switch to a new "gen" anchor although I wouldn't mind borrowing and testing one to see if I'd feel about using one. 


Thanks again. I'm very glad to have found this forum. One of the best around!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I used to use a CQR....the Rocna beats it hands down...I also trust the Rocnas ability to reset on a turn more. Fortress is not a new gen anchor.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I have a genuine Chinese made Rocna 15 (33lbs) hanging off the bow of my 35' sailboat. I have 25' of 3/8" chain and 200' of 5/8 double braid as anchor rode.

It works like a champ every time - even when I screw up, and only put it out with 4:1 scope.

The biggest challenge with this anchor was retrieving it, until I rigged a 35' retrieval line to the "Buoyed retrieval line attachment point" in the photo below;









[Edit]
Rocna moved the picture that I originally referenced. I have since fixed the link.

Also, if it helps, here is what my ground tackle setup looks like;








[/Edit]

I was very disappointed with Rocna and the way that they changed their specifications to a lower grade steel when they moved manufacturing to China. I was also dumbfounded at the way they royally screwed up on handling the situation.

That said, I am still happy with my anchor.

BTW - below is an article in it's entirety, referenced on the Rocna website about the Rocna quality "issue";

Source: https://plus.ibinews.com/article/x0...ocna_the_tarnished_anchor_brand_gets_polishe/


> Rehabilitating Rocna: The tarnished anchor brand gets polished under a new owner
> By Michael Verdon
> Thu Apr 12 2012, 14:43 PM Print Email
> Canada Metal's latest announcement, to warranty against bending, is designed to restore confidence in the Rocna name
> ...


I have NO affiliation with Rocna, other than as a customer


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

eherlihy said:


> The biggest challenge with this anchor was retrieving it, until I rigged a 35' retrieval line to attachment B in the photo below;


There is a very, very easy alternative to this. I see all too often folks trying to break anchors free with their brute and muscles. while this might have worked okay on a CQR it does not work on the newer anchors.

1- Retrieve rode by motoring forward on it and collecting it as the boat moves towards the anchor.. Let the boat do the work.

2- Once you get close to 1:1 scope SNUB the rode and let the boat break the anchor from the bottom. With the Rocna, Spade, Manson Supreme or Mantus this may require a trip back to the cockpit to put it in gear.

3- Once the anchor is free from the bottom and the boat did 90% of the work the last 10% is on you to raise it the 10-20 feet to the roller... Simple!!!

We have a windlass and rarely if ever use it. I let the boat do all the work including breaking the anchor free. As a last step I often slowly drag the anchor below the water to clean it before hoisting it the rest of the way.

As for the OP there is one part missing in all this. A dragging un-set anchor is very often dragging on the surface of the sea floor. A properly set hoop style anchor, in most bottoms, will have the hoop completely buried. Diving on ours I have yet to see the hoop... Fouling your rode is far more likely than threading a needle in a haystack..


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Even with a manual windlass I use the method Mainesail eennumerated to break ours free to as thes suckers really bury themselves. If I am anchoring in an area I worry about logs, rocks, or think someone may run it over etc I do put a float on her through the c hole. In switching tides sometimes I use a kellet ( 10 lb mushroom anchor) also. 

Last year I stuck the anchor in a 2 foot square of rebar when anchoring and had a hell of a time getting it up...when it surfaced these was a gasp in the anchorage as 50 lbs of iron came up with my anchor.

Dave


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## Capt. Grimek (Oct 18, 2012)

chef2sail, would you mind elaborating? How things "feel" or "look" to you when you're anchoring and anchored in blows? Can you or your boat feel any very definite differences between your old CQR and the Rocna? Do you feel, for example, a significantly more robust bite when you place your hand on your chain, feel the boat come 'round or stop much more abruptly with the Rocna? 

I looked one over again on the docks today and even felt it over :-0 

Cheers.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We have never had a windlass and have always used the 'snub and let the boat lift' the anchor as MS explained. 

On only one occasion have we had to fight the hook to the surface inch by inch, ultimately finding that we'd snagged a 1" steel logging cable of indeterminate length (it made it to the surface without slipping free, so I figure it was twice the 40 or so foot depth.)


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## Capt. Grimek (Oct 18, 2012)

Thanks Maine Sail and eherlihy for your detailed info. and link.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Capt. Grimek said:


> chef2sail, would you mind elaborating? How things "feel" or "look" to you when you're anchoring and anchored in blows? Can you or your boat feel any very definite differences between your old CQR and the Rocna? Do you feel, for example, a significantly more robust bite when you place your hand on your chain, feel the boat come 'round or stop much more abruptly with the Rocna?
> 
> I looked one over again on the docks today and even felt it over :-0
> 
> Cheers.


Back in early September I had a chance to load up my 35 Mantus, 33 Rocna and my 35 CQR. I only had a couple of hours so the other anchors stayed at home. I used a twin screw 30' sport fishing boat with 450HP to pull test these anchors. I own a 5000 pound rated digital load cell that was used for measurement.

With the Mantus and Rocna I easily approached where I thought I might pull the cleat from the vessel, and being my brothers boat, I decided I'd be nice and back off...

I registered over 4500 pounds twice, once with each hoop style anchor. The 450 HP could not muster that entirely and I had to get sort of a momentum start. The Rocna and Mantus set within inches, first try for both, and never dragged.

The CQR took 6 tries to get it to hold beyond 200-300 pounds. When it finally was "set" it dragged slowly through the mud bottom never breaking 500-600 pounds of steady load. It had a couple short blips over 800 but I suspect that was rocks or debris it dragged through on the bottom...

I had intended to make a video, as I often do, but when I got there I had forgotten my SD card in my computer..... I plan to repeat this next season when my brothers boat goes back into the water.

So to answer your question yes they do feel different both in the way they set, which is usually instantaneously, and like you are tied to a concrete dock, and they don't budge once set..

I used CQR's for nearly 20 years. Having now owned a Manson Supreme, Spade, Rocna and a Mantus I can honestly say there is no comparison between them and a CQR in initial setting, re-setting and sheer holding power...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Capt Grimek,

Mainesail has pretty much said exactly how I feel also about all the new gen anchors. Although I only have a NZ Rocna and a Mantus. In the 4 or 5 years since I went to my Rocna I have only had trouble with it setting first time ( in a thick grassy bottom) and have yet to drag anchor. I have used in av variety of conditions. We keep the boat in the Chesapeake, but also travel to the LI Sound and New England for 3+ weeks every summer.

Mainesail actual did pretty sophisticated tests. Maybe he would e mail them too you.Also when I bought my Rocna from NZ the manson Supreme was not available as of yet. I beleive it is an equal comparioson and somehwat cheaper also. The Mantus is relatively new this year and has the advabataghe of being able to take apart and stow in a smaller footprint.

Most I have talked to who use these anchors have had the same stunning rsults and remark how abruptly it sets and digs in immediately.

No anchor does well in EVERY condition but these three seem to do well universally in most, The


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## Capt. Grimek (Oct 18, 2012)

Thanks again Chef. I'll definitely start paying more attention to the newer anchors and talk with other boaters in anchorages about them. I'm a traditionalist but not closed minded either!
Just added my profile. Fantastic forum. Gonna stick around! It's fun to be re-invigorated about newer/changes in gear after changing boats (or about to). 
Cheers.


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

lots of people love their rocnas. I am one. Never a problem anchoring out in the Caribbean - Always held no matter how the trades were blowing. Wouldnt trade it for a cqr ever.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Capt. Grimek said:


> I've been looking at Rocnas on the dock and even though the plow portion looks good, that tall curved roll bar cries out one big concern for me. A friend and local broker said he had the same concerns looking at them.
> 
> My question is: When anchored in a blow and less seamanlike owner's boats
> are dragging down on your location, aren't those tall semi-circular roll bars
> ...


Given Nanaimo BC's increasing hostility towards cruisers, anchoring there may soon be a moot point. The downtown basin has been sold to Washington Marine Group, a group which has been asking $5 an hour for visitors to park their dinghy, and is selling slips to private owners for up to $65,000 each.
Their moorage rates send a clear message to cruisers, only the filthy rich are welcome in Nanaimo. Many are passing it by, and elsewhere there is no shortage of anchorages where there is little chance of anyone dragging down on you.

I have been considering using a roll bar on a delta type anchor, to simplify construction and galvanizing. Has anyone tried that?


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## mitchbrown (Jan 21, 2009)

Brent

I am thinking the same as you where it comes to welding a roll bar on my Delta anchor. The anchors are pretty similar other wise.

Mitch


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Uh... no,

The Delta is a type of plow anchor. The blade is concave in relation to the shank, whereas the blade on a Rocna is convex in relation to the shank. To make a Delta work similarly to a Rocna or Manson, you would have to remove the shank, and weld it to the other side of the blade. I still doubt that it would work as well..


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

mitchbrown said:


> Brent
> 
> I am thinking the same as you where it comes to welding a roll bar on my Delta anchor. The anchors are pretty similar other wise.
> 
> Mitch


They couldn't be more different. The convex vs concave plow is a huge difference.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Tri it mitch and report back...maybe you create another different type of new generation anchor


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## Capt. Ty (Mar 22, 2013)

Capt. Grimek said:


> I've been looking at Rocnas on the dock and even though the plow portion looks good, that tall curved roll bar cries out one big concern for me. A friend and local broker said he had the same concerns looking at them.
> 
> My question is: When anchored in a blow and less seamanlike owner's boats
> are dragging down on your location, aren't those tall semi-circular roll bars
> ...


I just read your Rochna post of nov. 2013. Strange but true, this actually happened to me yesterday, English Harbor, Antigua. I watched a charter group come into the anchorage. They dropped 60 feet in a 20 ft. water depth. Catamaran, lagoon 40. They started to drag and as they raised their anchor they violently did a swing to starboard. I had my sights on them and lo and behold up came my Rochna anchor. Lucky for me I had 180 feet of chain out from the boat and I did not move. Their anchor had dragged right through the roll bar and had locked in place. It took 4 people, two in dinghies, to disentangle the anchors. This is the first time in 3 years this has happened. It is a real risk and not to be diminished. Mine is a 55 lb. Rochna, and it came up nicely!


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## Capt. Grimek (Oct 18, 2012)

Capt. Ty, thank you for re-affirming that this Old "superstitious about changing up his gear"
Salt isn't crazy after all  That roll bar just looked like it was begging for such an event to me even though I was told I was claiming the sky was falling :-0 
You've done me a service by reaffirming my concerns and by letting people know that this is indeed a real possibility.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

If enough sailors anchor out enough times, I suspect that anything, no matter how statistically unlikely, will eventually happen ...

We've had our Rocna since 2009; 2 round trips ICW and back Chesapeake to Bahamas/Florida with lots of anchoring in lots of conditions. In all that time, we dragged once, and that was in a *tornado!!* On two separate occaisionsions, unattended boats our size or larger dragged into us (one in a gale at 3 AM, isn't that always when these kinds of things happen?). Our Rocna held BOTH boats for hours and didn't move until we could get the owners back and get them separated. Neither case was the roll-bar issue you are concerned about; my satisfaction with the anchor is based on the fact that it held much more than its rated load.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

I concur with wingNwing. I've had my main Rocna since 2006 and my secondary Rocna since about 2009. While I haven't been dragged down on I did hold a four boat raftup through an afternoon Chesapeake Bay thunderstorm.

I can also add that when fully set the Rocna roll bar is generally fully buried. Accordingly it is no more likely to catch the anchor of a dragging boat than is your chain. The story told is a great story to tell at the bar but should not contribute to the decision-making process when selecting an anchor.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Faster said:


> As an aside, CG, BC's favourite 'dragging ground' at Newcastle is now mostly a mooring buoy field.. the park people installed them over last winter. They seem well used and appear to be addressing the various issues that plagued that bay - and anchoring/inside among the new buoys is forbidden (in all of Mark Bay).


Nanaimo is about to become a non issue for most cruisers, as the down town docks are about to be sold to a private company, with a reputation for charging huge fees for dingy access, putting it off limits for all but the rich.


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## dwb (Nov 8, 2001)

Roger that. The roll bar can get buried under the right conditions.

The design actually 'flies' through the water when you drop it, and always seems to land point down for me. In fact that's a hassle when raising it, as the boat's forward motion will make the anchor hit the bow rollers backwards. But I've learned to deal with it.

One thing about the roll bar that no one mentions: When anchored long term, or in conditions with changing tides and breezes, I believe that it helps avoid having your rode foul on the shank or flukes by guiding the chain over the anchor.

Wal
s/v Stella Blue (gee, my first post since the Boyles sold SailNet)

----
The chances of the anchor of your neighbor perfectly intersecting the hoop on your anchor is probably much less than their anchor with a short scope scooping up your chain.

<snip>

So the real question is if the hoop will help your anchor rotate properly to dig in.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

With anecdotal and circumstantial evidence all the rage in anchor boasting, here's mine: I usually use a 15 pound aluminum fortress with 30 feet of chain. More chain if there is coral or sharp rock. 50 foot, 10 ton boat. Have "never dragged" except places where everybody drags due to some smooth hard bottom or dense weed. Full time, long time, cruiser in remote tropical places. And I'm not the only one doing so.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

..... so what I'm hearing here is that if everyone just used a Rocna (or Mantus) there'd be no more of this "draggin" goin on.


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

aloof said:


> With anecdotal and circumstantial evidence all the rage in anchor boasting, here's mine: I usually use a 15 pound aluminum fortress with 30 feet of chain. More chain if there is coral or sharp rock. 50 foot, 10 ton boat. Have "never dragged" except places where everybody drags due to some smooth hard bottom or dense weed. Full time, long time, cruiser in remote tropical places. And I'm not the only one doing so.


Only a 15lb for your 50ft boat? What is your boat? I just got a 21lb for 47ft boat that weighs appx 15 ton. What size chain you use, I was thinking 3/8 SS for the short length I'll use for the fortress. I have heard nothing but good things about the fortress, and the fact I don't have a windlass now and the price was unbeatable("refurbished" BP oil spill anchor from defender) I went with it. It will be a back/kedge anchor later on.

When I do get a mantus I was thinking 5/16 G40 for the main anchor down the road..

- Ronnie...on the geaux


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

SailRedemption said:


> Only a 15lb for your 50ft boat? What is your boat?


Oooops. I just looked it up. It's a 10 pounder. Heh. It has more projected fluke area than steel anchors 5 times the weight, maybe. Imagine what a 60 pounder would hold. The chain is 5/16". The boat is a sexy racer/cruiser with the chain stowed in the center, thus the reluctance to move 300 pounds of chain and anchor to load up the windlass. But I do if conditions warrant, of course. I'm not lazy or a fool, IMHO.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

aloof said:


> With anecdotal and circumstantial evidence all the rage in anchor boasting, here's mine: I usually use a 15 pound aluminum fortress with 30 feet of chain. More chain if there is coral or sharp rock. 50 foot, 10 ton boat. Have "never dragged" except places where everybody drags due to some smooth hard bottom or dense weed. Full time, long time, cruiser in remote tropical places. And I'm not the only one doing so.


I'm sorry, but I think I read your post wrong. Did you mean to say a 50 foot, 10 ton boat? What exactly are you sailing?


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Back to the OPs original question, if a boat is dragging down on you it will hit you before the anchors collide, its simple math. I was a Delta user for more years than I can remember and loved that anchor and swore by it. When I was given a free Rocna I took it just as a test mostly because I wanted to prove that they aren't any better and all the reports were by cool aide drinking brainwashed sailors. I WAS WRONG now I'm drinking the cool aide. The Ronca is hands down the best anchor I have ever used. My fist night on it was in a full blown gale and that night I coined the term Rocna'd to sleep. My two cents is if you love your boat by one period. One thing that really gets my goat is all the talk of oversized anchors, a bower is sized to hold you in 40 knots or so sustained winds, if it packs up more than that you better start thinking of getting a second hook set. All those people that are buying oversized anchors really just need to learn to anchor properly if anything you can downsize with a new generation anchor either way they are great anchors and cheap insurance.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

capta said:


> Did you mean to say a 50 foot, 10 ton boat? What exactly are you sailing?


Aye matey! They be short tons as well. What she is, exactly, is spirited. More than that I'm not going to say so to remain mysterious, aloof.

Interestingly, my puny 10 pound anchor is 10 times heavier, proportionally, than the typical anchor on the largest ships, by my reckon. And even more weirdly, they still use 80 year old anchor designs. I suppose there is some exponential relationship at work regarding anchor size and ship size. Plus they have a watch stander on-duty and an engineer near the engine.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

aloof said:


> Oooops. I just looked it up. It's a 10 pounder. Heh. It has more projected fluke area than steel anchors 5 times the weight, maybe. Imagine what a 60 pounder would hold. The chain is 5/16". The boat is a sexy racer/cruiser with the chain stowed in the center, thus the reluctance to move 300 pounds of chain and anchor to load up the windlass. But I do if conditions warrant, of course. I'm not lazy or a fool, IMHO.


The Fortress is a nice anchor, no question... I keep a FX-23 stowed in the lazarette of my little tub, ready to go in a pinch...

Fortress recommends your FX-16 for boats 33-38 feet LOA... Even on a boat with as light a displacement as yours, if you're relying upon a 10 pound Danforth style as the primary anchor on your 50-footer, well... you're a braver - or perhaps more _'Faithful' - _man than I...

)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

barefootnavigator said:


> One thing that really gets my goat is all the talk of oversized anchors, a bower is sized to hold you in 40 knots or so sustained winds, if it packs up more than that you better start thinking of getting a second hook set. All those people that are buying oversized anchors really just need to learn to anchor properly if anything you can downsize with a new generation anchor either way they are great anchors and cheap insurance.


Damn, I would have thought Evans Starzinger and Beth Leonard would have "learned how to anchor properly" by now, no?

)



> First, we like BIG anchors. This photo shows why. Big anchors are your best insurance and let you sleep soundly.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

barefootnavigator said:


> One thing that really gets my goat is all the talk of oversized anchors, a bower is sized to hold you in 40 knots or so sustained winds, if it packs up more than that you better start thinking of getting a second hook set. All those people that are buying oversized anchors really just need to learn to anchor properly if anything you can downsize with a new generation anchor either way they are great anchors and cheap insurance.


Please help me understand your thoughts on this. Are you saying that you would rather get up, get dressed (if you have the time), go out on deck and set a second anchor, if a squall with let's say 60+ knots of wind comes through at 3 AM, than you would have an over sized anchor down that will hold you perfectly well in any squall?
I just do not see that as prudent seamanship, but I probably just don't have your seagoing knowledge and experience


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I love scary pictures and stories. I can assure you if it's blowing 60 knots out I'm already up and taking care of my boat. So you say to be safe we need a double oversized anchor. Would you also say to be safe we need to double our chain from say 1/2 to 1" chain? What about our engines do we need to pull out our 30hp and double it to 60hp? How about our mast and rigging, double my mast size and rigging size. I love Evans Starzinger and Beth Leonard correct me if I'm wrong but don't they suggest a million dollar 75' yacht to be considered safe at sea? I have their book right here. I doubt more than 1% of the people reading this will ever in their lifetime see 60 knots of sustained winds.
Here is a small example a young couple set out on a 20,000lb boat with a 35lb cqr they sailed for 18 years 1.5 times around the world in high and low latitudes early and late into the seasons. They did this with no engine so they couldn't even set their anchor yet they never ended up on any beach. Call it what you want but I call it seamanship. If I have to set a second anchor once every few years so be it. I'm not going to ruin my boats windward drive by carrying an extra 600 lbs on the bow because I'm afraid of the boogie man. By switching from a tradition anchor to a modern anchor of the same weight you have already doubled your holding power. If your boat didn't end up on the beach after 30 years with the old what makes you think a substantially better anchor needs to be upsized? Elementary my dear Watson


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

barefootnavigator said:


> I love Evans Starzinger and Beth Leonard correct me if I'm wrong but don't they suggest a million dollar 75' yacht to be considered safe at sea?


No, they don't...



barefootnavigator said:


> I have their book right here.


Perhaps you should try reading it...

)


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## goat (Feb 23, 2014)

barefootnavigator said:


> Back to the OPs original question, if a boat is dragging down on you it will hit you before the anchors collide, its simple math. I was a Delta user for more years than I can remember and loved that anchor and swore by it. When I was given a free Rocna I took it just as a test mostly because I wanted to prove that they aren't any better and all the reports were by cool aide drinking brainwashed sailors. I WAS WRONG now I'm drinking the cool aide. The Ronca is hands down the best anchor I have ever used. My fist night on it was in a full blown gale and that night I coined the term Rocna'd to sleep. My two cents is if you love your boat by one period. One thing that really gets my goat is all the talk of oversized anchors, a bower is sized to hold you in 40 knots or so sustained winds, if it packs up more than that you better start thinking of getting a second hook set. All those people that are buying oversized anchors really just need to learn to anchor properly if anything you can downsize with a new generation anchor either way they are great anchors and cheap insurance.


I'm upgrading my anchor system and I've got the same sprit issue as you. how'd you get the roll bar to fit with the sprit?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

For those wanting a rocna with out the rollbar, shall we introduce the Vulcan

I have not seen one, but advertising looks slick enough! EHEHEHE along with an LOLOL

Marty


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

barefootnavigator said:


> I love scary pictures and stories. I can assure you if it's blowing 60 knots out I'm already up and taking care of my boat. So you say to be safe we need a double oversized anchor. Would you also say to be safe we need to double our chain from say 1/2 to 1" chain? What about our engines do we need to pull out our 30hp and double it to 60hp? How about our mast and rigging, double my mast size and rigging size. I love Evans Starzinger and Beth Leonard correct me if I'm wrong but don't they suggest a million dollar 75' yacht to be considered safe at sea? I have their book right here. I doubt more than 1% of the people reading this will ever in their lifetime see 60 knots of sustained winds.
> Here is a small example a young couple set out on a 20,000lb boat with a 35lb cqr they sailed for 18 years 1.5 times around the world in high and low latitudes early and late into the seasons. They did this with no engine so they couldn't even set their anchor yet they never ended up on any beach. Call it what you want but I call it seamanship. If I have to set a second anchor once every few years so be it. I'm not going to ruin my boats windward drive by carrying an extra 600 lbs on the bow because I'm afraid of the boogie man. By switching from a tradition anchor to a modern anchor of the same weight you have already doubled your holding power. If your boat didn't end up on the beach after 30 years with the old what makes you think a substantially better anchor needs to be upsized? Elementary my dear Watson


Whew. It seems I know absolutely nothing about this boating stuff, after all, and I see you have all the answers. I bow to your immense amount of experience and knowledge and we shall all await THE definitive book on sailing and cruising which you will undoubtedly be publishing any day now, right? I just can not wait; finally ALL the answers. Move over Chapman, Hiscock and Lin and Larry, uh, what's his name, is taking over.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

capta said:


> Whew. It seems I know absolutely nothing about this boating stuff, after all, and I see you have all the answers. I bow to your immense amount of experience and knowledge and we shall all await THE definitive book on sailing and cruising which you will undoubtedly be publishing any day now, right? I just can not wait; finally ALL the answers. Move over Chapman, Hiscock and Lin and Larry, uh, what's his name, is taking over.


perhaps you should change your title to master marinated 
:worthless:


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

blt2ski said:


> For those wanting a rocna with out the rollbar, shall we introduce the Vulcan
> 
> I have not seen one, but advertising looks slick enough! EHEHEHE along with an LOLOL
> 
> Marty


Probably good for the next generation of zombie sailors.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

goat said:


> I'm upgrading my anchor system and I've got the same sprit issue as you. how'd you get the roll bar to fit with the sprit?


I just hook it on the bob stay works great. Easy to launch and retrieve, its super ugly but once you've seen the magical holding and setting powers it starts to almost seem not so ugly.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Perhaps you should try reading it...
Why? their primary anchors are a Bruce and Delta both over sized and under rated. Maybe they should read my opinions on modern anchors, then they wouldn't need oversized anchors. Either way they are responsible for their boat and I'm responsible for mine so its all just hearsay, but you do love to argue with reason You know the old saying you can't teach an old dog new tricks...


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## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

barefootnavigator said:


> Perhaps you should try reading it...
> Why? their primary anchors are a Bruce and Delta both over sized and under rated. Maybe they should read my opinions on modern anchors, then they wouldn't need oversized anchors. Either way they are responsible for their boat and I'm responsible for mine so its all just hearsay, but you do love to argue with reason You know the old saying you can't teach an old dog new tricks...


I'd give you more credit if you could get off the dock. I've been reading your blog for a couple of years and for all your talk about your sailing prowess, it seems that you've always got a convenient excuse not to go anywhere. I'd also give you more credit if you didn't edit out any blog comments that're anything short of fawning praise.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

IStream said:


> I'd give you more credit if you could get off the dock. I've been reading your blog for a couple of years and for all your talk about your sailing prowess, it seems that you've always got a convenient excuse not to go anywhere. I'd also give you more credit if you didn't edit out any blog comments that're anything short of fawning praise.


You should read my last post, I actually wrote it directly for you 
BTW please tell us all about your beautiful yacht and the exotic location you are currently voyaging in, I'm so curious.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

barefootnavigator said:


> Perhaps you should try reading it...
> Why? their primary anchors are a Bruce and Delta both over sized and under rated. *Maybe they should read my opinions on modern anchors, then they wouldn't need oversized anchors.* Either way they are responsible for their boat and I'm responsible for mine so its all just hearsay, but you do love to argue with reason You know the old saying you can't teach an old dog new tricks...


Yeah, they should probably just disregard their experience in over 20 years of voyaging, a couple of circumnavigations, well over 100K NM of largely high latitude sailing, not to mention their season of testing anchors in Patagonia for PRACTICAL SAILOR, and just take your word for it... )

Sounds like you could teach Steve Dashew a thing or two about anchoring, as well...



> The ROCNA is a much better all around anchor. There are no hard and fast rules about sizing, except that BIGGER is always better. Lots of comments on this throughout SetSail.
> 
> SetSail » Blog Archive » ROCNA vs. Bruce Anchors


You should probably set John Harries on MORGAN'S CLOUD straight re anchor sizing, too...



> Do note that all of my arguments assume that your single anchor is a big one of the new generation. For voyaging sailboats we recommend at least one size larger than the anchor manufacturer's recommendation (ours is two sizes larger). And if you are worried about weight on the bow, consider changing to schedule 70 chain, the weight savings of which will more than compensate for the larger anchor.
> 
> Simple is Good
> 
> ...


Nah, what would folks like John and Phyllis know about anchoring, anyway?


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Jon, take a deep breath and relax, if you want to start a thread about other peoples experiences you should. The OP asked us for ours. PS schedule 70 chain is a bad idea...I'm just sAYIN


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## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

barefootnavigator said:


> You should read my last post, I actually wrote it directly for you
> BTW please tell us all about your beautiful yacht and the exotic location you are currently voyaging in, I'm so curious.


Nobody said anything about voyaging, just spend a few nights on the hook on our Salish Sea every once in a while if you want to be taken the least bit seriously. I do just that, but I don't presume that it makes me an expert.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

I've always heard about "anchor threads" being looked upon with some disdain. Now I see that they slowly evolve from decent comments and escalate into verbal "nuclear" war.


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## goat (Feb 23, 2014)

blt2ski said:


> For those wanting a rocna with out the rollbar, shall we introduce the Vulcan
> 
> I have not seen one, but advertising looks slick enough! EHEHEHE along with an LOLOL
> 
> Marty


Thanks Marty. I've had the Vulcan on my radar for awhile, unfortunately there really hasn't been any testing on it. Another I'm curious about is a Mantus with the rollbar removed. I've seen their ad where they toss they anchor over without the rollbar and it lands upright every time, but I'm more of a 'lower the anchor' and not a 'toss the anchor' kind of guy.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

barefootnavigator said:


> Jon, take a deep breath and relax, if you want to start a thread about other peoples experiences you should.


Nah, I'll let you do the honors... It was you who started the ball rolling about "other peoples" anchoring wisdom, after all...





barefootnavigator said:


> ...*One thing that really gets my goat* is all the talk of oversized anchors, a bower is sized to hold you in 40 knots or so sustained winds, if it packs up more than that you better start thinking of getting a second hook set. * All those people that are buying oversized anchors really just need to learn to anchor properly* if anything you can downsize with a new generation anchor either way they are great anchors and cheap insurance.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

goat said:


> Thanks Marty. I've had the Vulcan on my radar for awhile, unfortunately there really hasn't been any testing on it. Another I'm curious about is a Mantus with the rollbar removed. I've seen their ad where they toss they anchor over without the rollbar and it lands upright every time, but I'm more of a 'lower the anchor' and not a 'toss the anchor' kind of guy.


I wouldn't worry about the lack of "testing" on the Vulcan... As we've seen recently in the most recent 'Anchor Test' conducted in the Chesapeake, they can be far from conclusive...

From what I can tell, the Vulcan - at least in its design - appears to be very much a copy of the Spade, which I have a fair bit of experience with, and is widely considered to be a very well-proven anchor...

Removing the roll bar from any anchor that is designed to have one, sounds like a bad idea, to me... I believe Peter Smith explains why in his description of the Vulcan, no? There's a reason for the weighted tip in the Spade and Vulcan, after all...

You might also consider a variation like the Manson Boss, although personally, I don't care much for the 'look' of that one, at all...


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I watched the video on the Vulcan and was not very impressed. It seems to work quite well in clean mud, but with the stock running ahead and through the bottom before the fluke (if it's still called that?) it seems in a rocky, gravel or coral bottom the stock will inhibit setting. The arc in the stock seems too extreme for many bottoms.
I'm happy enough with our Rocna; better than 65 kn winds and yet to drag an inch.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


>


reminds me of this, for some reason.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Dear Jon, thank you for giving me a fun job today and a walk down memory lane. I went through my log book and counted 192 days swinging on my Rocna. She is a 22lb down sized from my much loved 25lb Delta I have 30' of 5/16 chain and 250' of 1/2 three strand. Going through the notes in my log I discovered something interesting, many many pages of notes on dealing with my Delta and frustrations that I honestly couldn't remember until today. The only notes i found on the Rocna were wish I had a better way to stow it and ugly anchor. My experience is that I sized my anchor on the high side of the recommended size my Rocna but did to go up in size. My boat is 5 net tones with a fair but of windage but also a very fine bow so she rides nicely. Obviously the anchor is new to me but so far I haven't had a single issue with it. I'm looking at another 180 nights this year so more testing will come. I feel the rope chain set up is more than adequite but we will be switching to 100" this years mostly because of the nasty smell we get from the 3 strand rope as we are lazy and tend to spend a fair bit of time n one location. The chain if it needs cleaning is easy compared to the rope which is impossible. Rocna spec'ed us at 1/4 HT but without a windlass the 5/16 is easier to grip and sheds mud 10 fold better. Our biggest concern is that we can never find a shackle to match the working loads of the chain or rope. Either way we have seen some good blows and had no issues.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

barefootnavigator said:


> Dear Jon, thank you for giving me a fun job today and a walk down memory lane. I went through my log book and counted 192 days swinging on my Rocna. She is a 22lb down sized from my much loved 25lb Delta I have 30' of 5/16 chain and 250' of 1/2 three strand. Going through the notes in my log I discovered something interesting, many many pages of notes on dealing with my Delta and frustrations that I honestly couldn't remember until today. The only notes i found on the Rocna were wish I had a better way to stow it and ugly anchor. My experience is that I sized my anchor on the high side of the recommended size my Rocna but did to go up in size. My boat is 5 net tones with a fair but of windage but also a very fine bow so she rides nicely. Obviously the anchor is new to me but so far I haven't had a single issue with it. I'm looking at another 180 nights this year so more testing will come. I feel the rope chain set up is more than adequite but we will be switching to 100" this years mostly because of the nasty smell we get from the 3 strand rope as we are lazy and tend to spend a fair bit of time n one location. The chain if it needs cleaning is easy compared to the rope which is impossible. Rocna spec'ed us at 1/4 HT but without a windlass the 5/16 is easier to grip and sheds mud 10 fold better. Our biggest concern is that we can never find a shackle to match the working loads of the chain or rope. Either way we have seen some good blows and had no issues.


Not sure why you're trying to convince me of the superiority of the Rocna as an all around anchor, it's what I've chosen for my own boat, after all... Seems our point of disagreement is that you're content having one under-sized, while I simply prefer the opposite... 

You should be able to find a high test shackle to match whatever chain you're using from Crosby, to name one reputable manufacturer... or, you could always go with titanium, something not necessarily endorsed by everyone, but mine still looks almost as new as the day I bought it...

Nigel Calder's CRUISING HANDBOOK has a very useful section on the problems of matching shackles to chain, you might want to check it out...


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Jon, I'm not trying to convoke you of anything, this is sail net and 20,000 newbies will eventually read this thread and start putting 45lb anchors on their Catalina 27's. I'm making a point that their is a proper size for everything and when proper procedure is used that proper size works a charm. If you go back to my original response to the 30 yer old cruising boat that did just fine with an old generation anchor simply going to a new gen has been an absolute vast improvement. You don't need to hamper your boats sailing performance which is a huge safety factor by piling weight in the ends.


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## SailRedemption (Jun 29, 2013)

I think what barefoot is trying to say, and if he is I think I agree on it, is that the old tradition of going up a size on the anchor doesn't apply to the new generation anchors. For instance, my boat, according to mantus, needs an 85lb anchor. This is already 10lbs heavier than the 75lb CQR that was on there(I have a FX-37 21lb fortress at the moment). For me to use the old saying of go up one size, id have to opt for the 105lb Mantus, which is a HUGE jump in size and weight. I think that would be overkill for my boat. I wouldn't go down in size, but if his original anchor was a 25lb and the only anchor close to that was a ronca 22lb, yea I'd go the 22lb instead of the next size up which would be probably a 30 whatever. 

I just don't agree with that notion of just going up a size or even two (125lb) that some people claim. And it may be because the new anchors haven't been around long enough to debunk that sage advice worldwide. 

If it were a old anchor like claw, CQR, Bruce, etc yea oversize it definitely. But these new anchors are exceptionally good at their jobs and can't be compared. Tests prove it. 

- Ronnie...on the geaux


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## bvander66 (Sep 30, 2007)

Lot of talk about oversize or up one size for anchors. 10+ years ago this was true as the Delta/CQR vintage anchor tables were typically rated for 30 kts. Newer anchor recommendation tables are varied so the key is to read the fine print on recommendation tables. For example Rocna bases their recommendation on 50 kts. Some dont list this detail and you need to pry it out of the seller.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Evans Starzinger wrote a good seminar on ground tackle. His premise was basically "using the largest ground tackle you can easily handle on a day-to-day basis will be adequate for 99% of your anchor requirements". (I paraphrased)

I used Manson's sizing guide when I bought my anchor.
My boat size and displacement fell squarely in the middle of their recommendations for the 25lb. anchor, so I didn't upsize to 35lbs.

I did upsize my rode by one size though. That's 280 feet of 5/8th 3-strand with 30 feet of 3/8th G4 chain if I remember correctly.

Here's a little anecdotal evidence:
I held my boat, plus an Ericson 35 MkII in 25+ knots all night, on a muddy bottom. That's at least 21,000 lbs and a lot of windage.

Based on that, I'd trust my ground tackle to hold my boat (by itself) in 60kts.
If anything is going to fail, it'll be the cleat ripping out of my foredeck. I need to get a beefy backing plate on that sucker.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

barefootnavigator said:


> Our biggest concern is that we can never find a shackle to match the working loads of the chain or rope.


SeaMar over on the fisherman's terminal side of ballard has them. The have a nice selection of high quality shackles with bolts and cotter pins built in to secure the main shackle pin. They're affordable too.

MedSailor


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