# Max wind



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Please forgive my spamming this picture. It is the newest boat I've sailed (2013) an I have more than one question about it.

The wind picked up to 15 knots (true I think) we had pretty steady white caps with almost no waves, maybe 1 foot.
We had the 100 genny and main fully deployed and it felt to me as if the boat was just about at it's limit.

Does that sound right? I'm more familiar with 30 to 35 foot boats where I know when to reef.


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## DivingOtter (May 5, 2012)

Were you out today? I was out I the Barnegat bay and Toms River. Around 1100 the winds picked up to about 15 gusting to 20 knots. I was single handed on my 23 ft Santana so headed back on a partially furled jib. A boat that size has a lot of sail. Honestly my opinion is if you think you need to reef / reduce the sail you probably should have already started. Beautiful boat by the way.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Beneteau Sense 43?


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

If it was in fact 15 TRUE and not apparent then GOING UP WIND you could have been in the 22 knot apparent range Which is pretty stout


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

GeorgeB said:


> Beneteau Sense 43?


Yes, you have a good eye. Only a couple in the states.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

tommays said:


> If it was in fact 15 TRUE and not apparent then GOING UP WIND you could have been in the 22 knot apparent range Which is pretty stout


Yes that was part of my problem with the full instrument panel. It had everything, radar, two helm stations etc.

There were so many screens an numbers I was not always sure what was real and and what was not. I'm sure some more time I would have figured it out.


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## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

I would go more by feel than the instruments. Excessive weather helm, too much heel: time to reef.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Sounds like it may not meet Chuck Paine's 20/20 Rule that defines a good cruising boat... Especially, considering it's only carrying a "100 percent genoa"... )

According to Paine, a good cruising boat should be able to carry its working sail plan, sailing close hauled in 20 knots, without heeling more than 20 degrees...

Not too many boats meet that standard today, in my experience. Mine barely manages to, but by the time the breeze has piped up to 20, I've already taken in a reef - I'm not gonna beat myself up just to prove to myself I've got a decent boat


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

It is a beauty. So, my guess is you did figure out where the boat speed was. In those conditions what was it?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> Sounds like it may not meet Chuck Paine's 20/20 Rule that defines a good cruising boat... Especially, considering it's only carrying a "100 percent genoa"... )
> 
> According to Paine, a good cruising boat should be able to carry its working sail plan, sailing close hauled in 20 knots, without heeling more than 20 degrees...


That is a good quote. I'll remember it.
This boat has a hard chine aft and is designed to sail really flat, maybe 10 degrees or so.

I was being more than a little cautious as it was pretty much the first time anyone has sailed that boat so I didn't know what to expect.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Those things are in a lot of the bare boat fleets down here, but I really don't know how well they sail. Every one I've ever seen has been under power, even on some great sailing days. Does one really need two helms on a motor boat?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

capta said:


> Those things are in a lot of the bare boat fleets down here, but I really don't know how well they sail. Every one I've ever seen has been under power, even on some great sailing days. Does one really need two helms on a motor boat?


The purpose of the two helms is to keep the path to the swim platform clear.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

davidpm said:


> The purpose of the two helms is to keep the path to the swim platform clear.


How about keeping one of the two rudders from 'ventilating' when _well over_ on a heel. Such is a design concept from the 1890s - the original BIG ILYA 'scows'.

Such fat-assed boats would probably do even better with BILGE BOARDS


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

RichH said:


> How about keeping one of the two rudders from 'ventilating' when _well over_ on a heel. Such is a design concept from the 1890s - the original BIG ILYA 'scows'.
> 
> Such fat-assed boats would probably do even better with BILGE BOARDS


That is actually part of my problem with this boat. With the hard chine I believe it is not designed to heal.

I'm concerned about the initial stability vs stability after it hits 20 degrees.
Some small day sailors are very tender after 20 degrees and if you heal them too much they tip over.

Some of the older designs you can put the spreaders in the water and the boat will pop up as soon as it can.

I just don't know if these new hard-chine super wide hulls will do that. I'm afraid they may act more like a dinghy or catamarans and have good initial stability then just loose it at some arbitrary heal angle.

I'm hoping our design experts will pop in and let me know what to expect.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

davidpm said:


> The purpose of the two helms is to keep the path to the swim platform clear.


Ah, ha! Thanks.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

davidpm said:


> Please forgive my spamming this picture. It is the newest boat I've sailed (2013) an I have more than one question about it.
> 
> The wind picked up to 15 knots (true I think) we had pretty steady white caps with almost no waves, maybe 1 foot.
> We had the 100 genny and main fully deployed and it felt to me as if the boat was just about at it's limit.
> ...


If I had been sailing it it would be at its' limit for full sail and if it had been gusting on top I would be putting a reef in. But I think you were getting closer to 20 knots wind if there were white caps.

You knew it was time to reef! You know how I know this; it is because you asked the question.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Not sure frankly that the 20/20 rule works with that boat. As that boat even with a 100 jib is probably equal to an old mast head IOR rig with a 135-155 up! so reality is, 15 steady may be where you need to reef the main some, to get it equal to a rig where the 20/20 rule was initially made up. 

Now, I may be wrong on my assessment per say, But I will doubt that I am that far off personally speaking here. 

Marty


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

davidpm said:


> That is actually part of my problem with this boat. With the hard chine I believe it is not designed to heal.
> 
> I'm concerned about the initial stability vs stability after it hits 20 degrees.
> Some small day sailors are very tender after 20 degrees and if you heal them too much they tip over.
> ...


but .... the hard chine puts more 'vertical' surface in profile to resist a leewards skid/drift .... mathematically such (artificially by trigonomety trickery) increases the 'effective' and effectiveness of the hull's Lateral Resistance. Thats what scows and 'sandbaggers' have done for over a hundred years of design although their chines are usually 'tightly rounded' instead of hard chined so that when conditions are 'ideal' with maximum heel their bilge boards dont 'necessarily' have to be all the way down when beating (and still be semi-planing).

That's my 'view' of the more modern fat-assed, shallow bilged and double ruddered sailing 'sleds' --- they're more than less, (skimming dish) scow designs with keels and 'pointy' bows ... and they are 'beautiful' to a scow sailor.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

David,

A couple of other thoughts since last post. 

Is the boat pictured the ACTUAL boat? If so, I see it has in mast reefing. While I have not sailed such a creature, and issue I see with this setup, is when reefing, the main is still for ALL practical purposes, all the way up the mast. Yes when reefed, you have reduced SA, lowered CG etc etc, BUT you left the weight of the main up at the top of the mast, unlike a slab reef setup, the sail wt is lowered, so this weight CG is lowered, allowing a bit more SA up for a given wind speed. 

Then since this boat probably has at full sail a 20 to 22-1 SA/disp, possibly a shoal keel.....you may need to get into the 16 or 17-1 range to keep yourself at the 20/20 rule mentioned. Where as a rig like mine, MH slab reefing, no jib furling, deep keel, is able to keep a bit more sail up in a given blow than the one you are sailing.

Just some more thoughts on potential issues you are having with this rig.

Marty


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## jnorten (Aug 18, 2009)

For what it's worth, I crew on a late 1990's 37' Hunter. We do our best, but don't take it over seriously. The boat has all the creature comforts below, and we use furling headsail.

The headsail is definitely a jib, not a genoa. So, this is close to the specs of your headsail.

With all of the above said, my skipper thinks about reefing--during a race--right around 20 knots true windspeed.

So, your gut about your boat feeling near its limit at 15 knots makes sense.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Your boat is not going to lose it if you heel too much. So go out and try. But it will sail better if you reef before you heel too much. Just try a bunch of different things. Reef the jib. Pay attention to the feel of the helm. Then try reefing the main. How does the helm feel? With your roller reefing you should be able to perfectly balance your boat.



davidpm said:


> That is actually part of my problem with this boat. With the hard chine I believe it is not designed to heal.
> 
> I'm concerned about the initial stability vs stability after it hits 20 degrees.
> Some small day sailors are very tender after 20 degrees and if you heal them too much they tip over.
> ...


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## Alden68 (Mar 21, 2007)

The Sense series hulls are based on the open series of racing hulls. They probably have an AVS concurrent with all production cruisers so it will certainly not flip over like a dingy. 

It is designed to sail at low heel angles not because it will flip over but because the open concept is built around ease of use and crew fatigue of shorthanded race boats. A flat boat is easier to work on than one heeled at 30 degrees for hours on end. The chines, when properly designed, present the water with a much larger and broader underwater shape than a boat of that size should have allowing the boat to have great initial stability. That does not mean that the boat does not have dynamic stability as well. She might be pretty happy upside down but you would have to find stability curves for the sense to explore that.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Here's a scientific, rational, experimentally verified, wind tunnel modeled, wave tank tested thought..

I don't like the way it looks. YMMV.


On the other hand, I hear they are "wicked easy to paarhhk"


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

FWIW, our first "real" yacht was a 1957 era hard-chined Thunderbird 26, in San Francisco, virtually always sailed with a full main and 100% jib. That yacht would heel down to her chine fairly readily, about 20º-25º, but after that, would dig in and just go like a scalded cat although slipping to leeward somewhat in heavy gusts until one learned to feather the main as one does with a dinghy. I suspect the same may be true of your boat. You'll just need to try it. After all, you're not going to flip the boat (although you might no want to have the misses along while you do your experimentation).


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

davidpm said:


> ....Some small day sailors are very tender after 20 degrees and if you heal them too much they tip over.
> ....
> 
> I just don't know if these new hard-chine super wide hulls will do that. I'm afraid they may act more like a dinghy or catamarans and have good initial stability then just loose it at some arbitrary heal angle.
> ...


Well, I'm definitely no design expert, but dinghys, small day sailors and catamarans do not have ballast. This boat does. I highly doubt you have to worry about capsize especially in the 15 (or 20) kts and 1 ft wave conditions you were experiencing.

I'm sort of surprised that this is even a discussion.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Alden68 said:


> The chines, when properly designed, present the water with a much larger and broader underwater shape than a boat of that size should have allowing the boat to have great initial stability. That does not mean that the boat does not have dynamic stability as well. She might be pretty happy upside down but you would have to find stability curves for the sense to explore that.


My comparison to a dinghy was unfortunate of course. This boat is no dingy.

It his however a hull design that fits a purpose that helps sell boats.
Sails flat, has a lot of width aft etc.

If what you say is true that the initial stability is good and that dynamic stability is good to that would be great.

It is just that when I'm on a strange boat (to me) I like to know what its limits are.

And yes I know that if I break anything by sailing a boat like that in 20 knots I'm probably doing the dude a favor. Unless of course I do a flying jib and break the goose neck. That would be on me.

Misleading stability [Archive] - Yachting and Boating World Forums


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

It would be surprising to need to reef in just 15 knots of breeze - especially with only a 100% jib up. If it is a new boat, are the instruments calibrated properly? It could also be that she's quite light, and reacts more swiftly to puffs than you might be used to.


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

paulk said:


> It would be surprising to need to reef in just 15 knots of breeze - especially with only a 100% jib up. If it is a new boat, are the instruments calibrated properly? It could also be that she's quite light, and reacts more swiftly to puffs than you might be used to.


??

From David we have learned that he did not really got familiar with the instruments, couldn't distinguish real from virtual and so on. David was clearly not comfortable with the boat, and that kind of boat - not really sure of his role on the boat.

As pointed out by some earlier postings it could easily have been much more than 20 knots real wind. The only "real" indication of wind we get is "small waves" and "steady caps". We do not have any information on the sorrounding topography, eg in sheltered waters with islands a hig rig may catch much higher winds in the top than down at sea level (wind gradient my be very steep, including some jumps).

The quoted Paines rule on reefing at xxx knots is of course not anything to go by. Firstly, it can very well be so that the boat is intentionally designed to carry much sail, intentional overrigged. Such boats require reefing at lower wind speeds, of course. 
Secondly, it may be designed to sail with jib (100% genoa) and main, no larger headsail.
(this may sound very strange for true MH sailors, but some boats are actually designed like this).

/J


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Jaramaz said:


> ??
> 
> From David we have learned that he did not really got familiar with the instruments, couldn't distinguish real from virtual and so on. David was clearly not comfortable with the boat, and that kind of boat - not really sure of his role on the boat.
> /J


My role was paid captain. I was with the owner who just paid 400k for the boat and just had it repainted and had a couple of ASA classes under his belt.
Other than a few hour spins around the Hudson we were on the first sail.

So my real role was to not break anything.

It was Sat at about 5 PM we had been motoring from 5 AM in no wind when the wind suddenly picked up.
So I was probably more tired that I was aware of.

I'm been in several boats with moderate winds of up to about 40 knots. I've been on a Farr 395 that got knocked down with the chute up. I've been in older style boats and tossed around quite a bit.

A roller furling main always concerns me because if the boat is new and not been thoroughly tested it may need some adjustments to work properly.

There was so much canvas overhead it was impossible to see the sail unless you hung out on the rail.

So yes I think it is fair to say I was at least a little uncomfortable. But only because everything was so new and untried. It is not unusual for a new boat to have thing not properly tuned and you find out the first real sail.

What I was looking for was someone with real experience with this style hull that could tell me something authoritatively.

I had a rigger tell me today that what happens is that they heal to 15 degrees then dig in. If they are over canvased they heal a little more develop weather helm loose their rudder control and round up just like most boats.

If that is what they do, that is great and expected.

I was soliciting information from owners who know the hull to make sure I wasn't missing something on a hull design that is more modern that I usually deal with.

An I'm 90% sure all we had was 15 knot winds with almost flat seas. It is very possible the boat would have stayed in the groove with much higher wind I just didn't know.

I tried to find polars for the boat and couldn't.


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

Yes, it is difficult to find any hard facts on these. I just had a look on brochure, all nice photos and very few facts - in the very end there is a small table. 

Still, a 43 ft modern sailing boat, made by the french - who are a sailing lot - there should not be any risk of capsizing in 15 knots wind. That would not be possible to sell, the boat is intended for the Med (where it can blow really hard) and for other parts of Europe (and certainly the world). 

If it stabilizes around 15 degress, thats fine; I would have thought some more heeling (this I cannot see from the lines, that would be someone like Bob). Actually, I also expected this one to have twin rudders (not only double wheels).

The Sense series is a new concept from Bene. Intention is -seemingly- that a normal couple should be able to sail these, without any extra help. Also the 56 ft one ... I have my doubts, but that's what they say. 

/J


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

I am wondering if you got to work with the usual sail control: halyard tension, outhaul, cunningham, vang? Maybe dropping the traveller a bit and letting out the main sheet? Would be fun to play around with that boat in a bit of a breeze. OPB's boat? Sheet in and sail ugly!


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Jaramaz said:


> The Sense series is a new concept from Bene. Intention is -seemingly- that a normal couple should be able to sail these, without any extra help. Also the 56 ft one ... I have my doubts, but that's what they say.
> 
> /J


This boat did have dual rudders.

There was a lot to like but I was unable to determine where the sailing fit in the mix. 
I get the feeling that they are very customizable so someone can fit them out to be a condo or a sailing machine.

The model I was on had very few places to hang on to anything.
Almost nothing to tie anything to on the deck.
It had a full canopy covering the deck so the sails were not visible from the cockpit.

I totally get the need to compromise between livability and working sailing.

I'm just making sure they didn't make any compromises that couldn't be customized away.

You make a good point though that a company Bene building a boat in France probably has to make sure the boat is at least reasonably safe.
Being a new design however I wonder just how far they took it?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

aeventyr60 said:


> I am wondering if you got to work with the usual sail control: halyard tension, outhaul, cunningham, vang? Maybe dropping the traveller a bit and letting out the main sheet? Would be fun to play around with that boat in a bit of a breeze. OPB's boat? Sheet in and sail ugly!


I did play with the Vang and the out haul. Embarrassed to say I don't remember the traveler.

Frankly the fact that I had to go on a walkabout every time I wanted to see the sails really disoriented me. I'm used to just looking up.


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## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

You don't remember the traveler because that boat doesn't have one. Look at the photo you attached in the first post. 

Not sure what you meant about adjusting the main furler in a previous post. All you can really play with is halyard tension, too much or too little and you will have furling issues.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

You are right that the boat was designed to have a optimum heel angle that is on the low side. Here is an article about a 55 showing what the author thought optimum heel to be:

Beneteau Sense 55 (2014-) 2013 Reviews,performance,compare,price,warranty, specs,Reports,Specifications Layout, video | BoatTEST.com

However the boat is one tough boat, and you aren't going to hurt it if you sail a little over powered. That doesn't mean you should over power it, but nothing bad is going to happen if you do. Even if you jibe improperly, that boat is going to be fine.

I have had our 47.7 in quite a range of nasty weather, and no problems whatsoever. Even in the Mac storm when we got caught with a full main she did very well. 12.6 knots under just a main was quite a ride.



davidpm said:


> My comparison to a dinghy was unfortunate of course. This boat is no dingy.
> 
> It his however a hull design that fits a purpose that helps sell boats.
> Sails flat, has a lot of width aft etc.
> ...


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

As far as the full canopy goes, maybe just keep the bimini top up, and lower the dodger and remove the piece that connects them for normal sailing. Or just remove that connecting piece and leave the bimini and dodger up. That connecting piece is probably only necessary in really bad weather.



davidpm said:


> This boat did have dual rudders.
> 
> There was a lot to like but I was unable to determine where the sailing fit in the mix.
> I get the feeling that they are very customizable so someone can fit them out to be a condo or a sailing machine.
> ...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

davidpm said:


> This boat did have dual rudders.
> 
> There was a lot to like but I was unable to determine where the sailing fit in the mix.
> I get the feeling that they are very customizable so someone can fit them out to be a condo or a sailing machine.


If anyone wants to turn that into a Sailing Machine, they might start with rounding off some of the sharp corners on tables and other cabinetry, before getting caught in any sort of seaway... Looks like a Flat Water Only Marina Queen, to me... 










Anyone have a clue as to the rationale behind the absurdly high boom placement on this Sense 48?










Just read the SAIL magazine review of the Oceanis 38, one of their "Boat of the Year" winners...

Describing the construction of the hull to deck joint, the writer says "the deck is fastened to the hull with adhesives and _*screws*_, and then 'trimmed' with a one inch high toe rail..."

_SCREWS ???_ Seriously?

Wow...


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Are you aware of any problems that Beneteau has had with its hull deck joints?



JonEisberg said:


> If anyone wants to turn that into a Sailing Machine, they might start with rounding off some of the sharp corners on tables and other cabinetry, before getting caught in any sort of seaway... Looks like a Flat Water Only Marina Queen, to me...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

well its obvious from that pic that the boom is high for the placement of that tower which works as a mainsheet "traveler" I can see a way to easily have a standing height bimini on the cockipt so you can have a party like no other.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaah new boats...

in all honesty I wouldnt mind sailing a new boat...with all its new stuff and gadgets and comforts...
dual rudder, really?

but id think long and hard before doing any sort of cruising with it...

like the motorcycle industry and others, the products are tailored to the customers "needs"...

if people want to go to starbucks suited up like an astronaut on their fancy bmw motorcycle they can, but dont expect that bike to do well in mud out in the jungle...

think the same applies here...this boat is to do whats in the pic, hang out in a bikini sippinng a mimosa then go back to the dock real fast have a blast and have it maintained by your sexy crew.

jajaja


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

The boom and arch seem a bit high. And, while the rudders probably offer fantastic performance, I wonder about exposing them like that.

But really, why does the boom height matter that much for cruising? Will you be racing this boat? I bet it performs quite well boom height and all.

I am also not a fan of the master cabin being forward. But there are pluses and minuses in this category as with this hull shape, the stern will slap.

I have been on the Sense 50, and it is pretty sweet. I wouldn't hesitate to sail it anywhere in the world.



christian.hess said:


> well its obvious from that pic that the boom is high for the placement of that tower which works as a mainsheet "traveler" I can see a way to easily have a standing height bimini on the cockipt so you can have a party like no other.
> 
> aaaaaaaaaaaaaah new boats...
> 
> ...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

im not hating on the boat, I think it would be awesome to sail...the high boom is nothing new, many dinghies and small racing boats have high booms...I do though prefer one that can be easily worked on while sailing...

I love sailing, any type of boat...like you the issues I see physically are simply ones about getting to know the boat...not necessarily minuses...

something that must be pointed out is that in europe these types of boats are much more common than in the west...

this type of sailing is common it seems as a whole for us in the americas that we are much more traditional and retain more of the older style of boats....for the most part.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jzk said:


> Are you aware of any problems that Beneteau has had with its hull deck joints?


I have no first hand knowledge of such, no...

However, here is one recent event that comes to mind, sounds like leaks at the hull/deck joint were a major contributor to the loss of this Canadian boat in the Pacific back in April:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/vessels-lost-missing-danger/133561-another-amver-rescue.html

Are you saying that fastening a deck to a hull with _SCREWS_ is equal to, or superior than, through-bolting as a means of production yacht construction?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Jon,

Screws vs bolts vs rivets is in reality a 6 and one half dozen or the other question and answer. Depending upon the access to bolt, vs screw vs rivet could potentially be a problem with some boats and how they are built. At the end of the day, many things are held together with all three of these fasteners. Nails are another fitting that could be wrong or right depending upon material being used and type of nails. 

The type and style of glue along with fastener used could decide on the how strong or weak the item may be built. 

If you like bolted, but the inside and outside operator of the wrenches do not get the nut and bolt tight enough, do not put a big enough washer on the inside or out side per say, this is not a safe setup at the end of the day......

TO me, there is not a right or wrong answer here. Only a there are options, some may or may not be better than the other option!

Marty


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

blt2ski said:


> Jon,
> 
> Screws vs bolts vs rivets is in reality a 6 and one half dozen or the other question and answer. Depending upon the access to bolt, vs screw vs rivet could potentially be a problem with some boats and how they are built. At the end of the day, many things are held together with all three of these fasteners. Nails are another fitting that could be wrong or right depending upon material being used and type of nails.
> 
> ...


You could be right, of course...

Me, I'll become a believer when I see a builder like Morris screwing their decks and hulls together... 



jzk said:


> I have been on the Sense 50, and it is pretty sweet. I wouldn't hesitate to sail it anywhere in the world.


Well, if you would take a cockpit like this into the high latitudes, or waters like the Southern Ocean, you are a _far_ braver man than I...


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Fugly, fugly, fugly to the max...perfect for cocktail parties in the marina and rafting up with your fellow picnic sailors....

The high boom is a reflection of design priorities on the boat, sailing ability not being one of them. It is a shame what has happened to many production boats.


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

jameswilson29 said:


> Fugly, fugly, fugly to the max...perfect for cocktail parties in the marina and rafting up with your fellow picnic sailors....
> 
> The high boom is a reflection of design priorities on the boat, sailing ability not being one of them. It is a shame what has happened to many production boats.


What do you actually know about Sense sail ability?

How many here has actually sailed a Sense?

OK, I have. At 60 deg north, if that now is high enough. Easy peasy, of course.
I certainly not own one, don't plan to buy one and so on.

But I do not understand the eager to dismiss new designs.

/ J


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

jameswilson29 said:


> Fugly, fugly, fugly to the max...perfect for cocktail parties in the marina and rafting up with your fellow picnic sailors....


James, you say "rafting up" and "picnic sailors" like an insult. If most sailors day sail or do coastal cruising or island hopping trips less than 24 hours in length why is this sort of design a bad thing?

If you look at the brochure for this boat that is their target market; and again I ask why is that a bad thing given how most of us *really* use our boats?



jameswilson29 said:


> The high boom is a reflection of design priorities on the boat, sailing ability not being one of them. It is a shame what has happened to many production boats.


David didn't say the boat sailed badly, but rather had a different feel and that he was concerned about pushing a new boat too hard. The primary concern was visibility of the sails. On this boat (as pictured) that's an issue with the canvas design and easily fixed with a few window panels in the bimini.

You get used to how a boat sails and sometimes designs that look foreign to the eye look better with familiarity.

Time will tell how they sail in various conditions and how the designs hold up, but I can see the attraction. The bigger concern for me would be the lack of hand holds. But that too may be remedied as Beneteau gains experience with the design. I give them credit for trying something bold.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

I have nothing against picnic sailors or rafting up - they are the majority of sailors out there, after all. You include island hopping or coastal cruising in that category; I do not.

This boat is well-suited to that group. That is not insulting, it is simply an obvious fact. Comfortable accommodations and trim become the top priority.

I don't have to sail the boat to express an opinion about its appearance. It is ugly. If you want to see an attractive modern sailboat that would sail circles around it, see the J/111, seven feet shorter in length. That is what I call a real sailboat, not a marina queen. It has been out there winning ocean races since its introduction.

At what point are these boats becoming so removed from the beautiful, pure, poetry of actual sailing, that they should no longer be referred to a sailboats. Let's call a spade a spade.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

To say that Beneteau's hull deck joint consists of "screws" is misleading at best. I am not familiar with the sense hull deck joint, but I am with ours. We have alternating bolts into the toe rail and screws. The entire thing is glued together. I am pretty sure that the glue is stronger than any of the screws/bolts. The purpose of the screws is probably to hold the joint while the glue sets. The bolts are really two ended bolts with no head. In the toe rail, there are nuts and the bolt is screwed into the toe rail from the underside and then another nut from inside the boat. Ours is a "First," and I am told that the "First" has higher quality, but I don't know that for certain.

Our boat is not a "Morris." When we were looking at purchasing it, I remember the Grand Sole being about twice as expensive, and not much to show for it. With Morris, you pay much much more, and I am not sure that those dollars are a good value. There was a Morris on our dock, and it sure was beautiful, but I am not sure I would drop $690,000 for a weekender.

We sailed to Michigan last Sunday night. Got into a pretty good blow. I saw 50 knots on the wind meter. I was hauling dead down wind at 10+ knots with just the main up. Water was shooting up from both sides of the bow because we were going that fast, and I could see it glowing red and green with the nav lights. Steering was so easy that I really had to concentrate on not jybing because it was zero visibility, and I had to compass steer while getting 50 knots of wind and rain in my face going 10 knots. With that amount of wind, rain, and noise, I can't really feel the boat as it doesn't pull hard in any direction. And, it gets mesmerizing trying to keep a constant heading. Yes, I was pushing it, but the boat was certainly ready for it. I have every confidence in the world when sailing that boat in any conditions.

There are a few bone head things that Beneteau did with this boat that I have to wonder what they were thinking, though. For example, the bilge grid, while very "strong" doesn't all drain. There are many compartments in the grid that don't drain. This leads to water backing up and then wicking up the cherry interior. That sucks. If I am working in the head with a through hull or a drain, and water leaks, it doesn't drain into the bilge. It goes into an unknown recess somewhere and sits there, and I have no access to it. At first, the boat's shower sump pumps were controlled a push button. That meant that when taking a shower, you had to have one hand on the button the entire time. A simple flip switch fixed that, but who thought of putting in the button?

The rigging of the boat is very well thought out.



JonEisberg said:


> I have no first hand knowledge of such, no...
> 
> However, here is one recent event that comes to mind, sounds like leaks at the hull/deck joint were a major contributor to the loss of this Canadian boat in the Pacific back in April:
> 
> ...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

exactly....(post about intended use)hence the bikini party quote on the deck while anchored out...

thats what this boat is designed and marketed at...Id have a blast sailing it as so within its design parameters, obviously with an open transom like that no sane person would go monster southern ocean sailing right?

and if they do, then dont complain that design sucks, it sucks for that type of sailing but not as a design at least till tested long term...say a keel falling off or a rudder stock failing like we have seen on other production boats lately.

fugly for example is a bayliner buchanneer or something jajaja

peace


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

What is wrong with the monster stern? Aren't many of round the world racers that frequent the southern ocean set up like that?

There is an Oceanis 45 here in South Haven at the marina where we are. I think it is one sweet looking boat. You could seat like 10 people on the stern side by side. Why is that a problem?



christian.hess said:


> exactly....(post about intended use)hence the bikini party quote on the deck while anchored out...
> 
> thats what this boat is designed and marketed at...Id have a blast sailing it as so within its design parameters, obviously with an open transom like that no sane person would go monster southern ocean sailing right?
> 
> ...


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

My second boat was a 1971 Irwin 38 in many ways similar to your islander. Then a 1973 Tartan 41. I recall referring to Beneteaus as "bendy-toys" back then. Then I sailed on this First 47.7, and I was blown a way. For one thing, the chain plate construction blows away those older vessels. Where are your chain plates? On my Irwin, they were bolted to the bulkhead. ON the First, they are connected to hull in a significantly more substantial way than those older boats.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jzk said:


> What is wrong with the monster stern? Aren't many of round the world racers that frequent the southern ocean set up like that?
> 
> There is an Oceanis 45 here in South Haven at the marina where we are. I think it is one sweet looking boat. You could seat like 10 people on the stern side by side. Why is that a problem?


seem you think I have a problem with this design, I dont...others do...Id have great fun on a boat like that for guests and people on board...

Im saying I WOULDNT take particular design monster surfing southern ocean...

yes they are incredibly similar to volvo boats, that doesnt mean they do or perform the same...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jzk said:


> My second boat was a 1971 Irwin 38 in many ways similar to your islander. Then a 1973 Tartan 41. I recall referring to Beneteaus as "bendy-toys" back then. Then I sailed on this First 47.7, and I was blown a way. For one thing, the chain plate construction blows away those older vessels. Where are your chain plates? On my Irwin, they were bolted to the bulkhead. ON the First, they are connected to hull in a significantly more substantial way than those older boats.


I think you have me confused...if anything I have defended the intended purpose of this boat, and havent even talked about construction...I dont know how they are constructed and I have not been on a sense 50

look back a couple of pages back

regarding my islander 36, yes huge issue was bulkhead delamination and chainplate issues from weak construction, mostly bad tabbing

many other boats of that era suffered that too

thats one reason why I have:

made new bulkheads, tabbed them better, made new oversized and longer chainplates with thicker plates, reinforced liners and knees as well as rebed the hull deck joint at the toreails...

I dont know what this has to do with the stern on a sense 50...

id be happy having cocktails back there


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

You brought up the design as a concern in the southern ocean, and I wondered what that concern was. You don't have to like the boat, and it is ok for you to think it is ugly.

But some of these issues are not so "subjective." Does Beneteau make a good hull deck joint or not? Is that stern a problem in big seas? There is alot of glass back there as well, but I am told that it is really really strong.



christian.hess said:


> seem you think I have a problem with this design, I dont...others do...Id have great fun on a boat like that for guests and people on board...
> 
> Im saying I WOULDNT take particular design monster surfing southern ocean...
> 
> yes they are incredibly similar to volvo boats, that doesnt mean they do or perform the same...


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

I seem to recall you mentioning that it was designed less for sailing and more for cocktail parties, or words to that effect. My experience, however, has been that Beneteau designs quite the sailing machine. And, I was wondering how the stern would detract from sailing. So far, there has been no evidence that it would at all.

The boom height is a valid concern, but frankly I wish mine was just a bit higher for just that reason. Canvass can be put up and down. There is a gunboat model with the helm inside the boat???? What is up with that? Talk about "not being able to see the sails." Gunboat claims that 99% of the time it will be on autopilot.



christian.hess said:


> I think you have me confused...if anything I have defended the intended purpose of this boat, and havent even talked about construction...I dont know how they are constructed and I have not been on a sense 50
> 
> look back a couple of pages back
> 
> ...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jzk said:


> You brought up the design as a concern in the southern ocean, and I wondered what that concern was. You don't have to like the boat, and it is ok for you to think it is ugly.
> 
> But some of these issues are not so "subjective." Does Beneteau make a good hull deck joint or not? Is that stern a problem in big seas? There is alot of glass back there as well, but I am told that it is really really strong.


I HAVENT SAID ITS UGLY

again you are confusing me with someone else

where are you getting this, please read the tgread well

Im sorry this got out of hand op...

I have no idea where you are getting this...my only concern was that its an open transom...if ut where my boat and I wasnt surfing at high speed all the time therefore avoiding rollers crashing into me Id simply close of the stern...

can we get back to this thread?


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Every owner likes to think their boat is perfect for daysailing in the bay to crossing southern oceans in storm conditions.

Personally, I think every boat is a tradeoff, and I haven't owned or been on a boat that is perfect for this extreme range of conditions, and I've owned 5. If you like this boat you should get one. I'd take it sailing first in conditions representative of how I'd want to use it and see for myself.



Enough for the serious stuff. I still would like to paarhk this thing a a wicked tight marina with guys from my hood watchin. It would be wicked cool.

They'd be given me a haarhdd time about it's looks, but I'd parhkk it so sweet as to wipe the grin off their faces. Then we'd have some beers on that big wide deck. One heck of a parhty


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

capecodda said:


> ... Then we'd have some beers on that big wide deck. One heck of a parhty


Word! It be da bomb party barge!


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

jameswilson29 said:


> ...the J/111, seven feet shorter in length. That is what I call a real sailboat, not a marina queen. It has been out there winning ocean races since its introduction.
> 
> At what point are these boats becoming so removed from the beautiful, pure, poetry of actual sailing, that they should no longer be referred to a sailboats. Let's call a spade a spade.


James you're sailing into philosophical waters.

Honestly, while the J/111 is a great sailing boat her looks don't inspire me. To my eye she looks blocky and utilitarian. But that's the whole point -- looks are subjective, and your "eye" tends to evolve with time and familiarity.










There was a time when "real" sailing boats were narrow, with dark, damp interiors. I see boats like the Sense as another step in the evolution of purpose built boats.

.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

jameswilson29 said:


> Word! It be da bomb party barge!


Agreed !

Hey James, turn on some music and pass me a drink


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

JimMcGee said:


> Agreed !
> 
> Hey James, turn on some music and pass me a drink


Jim, I hear James is bringing da beers!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

can I join? Ill bring the paella

at east we can try to sail the boat! jajajajajajajajajajajajaja if we dont like one of the guests you just tip them over the stern

easy peasy, no questions asked

cant do that with these old grumpy bad performing boats we have huh?


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Christian you're in buddy. Wow, we get too eat too. Here in Boston we'd be happy to get beans and fenway franks.

I was thinking about bringing in a bit of a disco theme. If we hang a mirrored ball at anchor, will that conform with COLREGS day shape requirements? That arch should be high enough.

Yea, and old and grumpy is the word, and not just my taste in boats.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

christian.hess said:


> can I join? Ill bring the paella


Christian if you have paella you are definitely welcome!

Nothing like a good meal and a glass of wine after you work up an appetite sailing


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

ideas on the paella thread recipe on the provisioning thread.....jejjeje

now back to the infamous bene 15 degree max heel sailboat

oh no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

LOL, sometimes these threads get too serious. 

A day out sailing on that Bene sure sounds better than a day in the office! :laugher


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I have a 2013 boat. Before buying it looked at this boat among others ( Boreal, Hylas, Passport, HR Malo, Morris etc.). There is a clear difference between the Bs, Js and Hs and these boats. My Outbound will be structurally sound after 10 or 20 or 30 y of hard cruising as will the others that were on my final list. No internal liners, Bullkheads glassed to hull on both sides, Flanged, through bolted 5200 deck/hull joint, oversized tinned wire in races. The list goes on and on. Yes B makes more boats then anyone else but if you are going to live on it and travel the extra money up front will pay dividends in quality of life, safety and enjoyment. Wife didn't like the Sense series. It's a dangerous boat underway- no good handholds, areas too big and dangerous to fall across, no place to snuggle in when it's blowing and you need to stay in the cockpit. Maybe be comfy in a slip but not great at anchor. Hard to service/maintain. The ocean boats are a different creature. They are sailed light by pros and have very deep keels. The ride on the fat assed boats seemed harsh to us with a tendency to pound upwind and squirrel around downwind. Think some things "new" are better such as balanced spade rudders and direct rod linked steering ( no cables) but others not so much. Think the Sense series is like a kit car and the ocean boats the Ferrari. Both look good - one backs it up. 
BTW- we pass the 20/20 rule. So do the other boats on our final list. May also want to note we do 200 mile days as do these other boats without benefit of chines or twin rudders.
We carry 100%jib and full main to 20kts.TWS. But find we lose nothing with a single reef in the main with that wind . Find we can point higher with better VMG if going upwind with the reef in.
Did you have the opportunity to play with the Sense? suspect same would apply.


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

Out,

You have a good boat and is proud of it. Fine. 

But all other boats doesn't have to be like your. Doesn't even have to fullfill the same requirement spec, if we now should use that language.

I myself prefer when there are many possibilities and options. 

Is there any real need for trash talk on new designs?

/J


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

So far, all I have seen is a bunch of unfounded speculation. One review had concerns about the rudder on the Oceanis 45 in a gust. If the boat is overpowered, the rudder can lose bite on the water with such a beamy stern. That is probably why the Sense series went to two rudders. I wonder about the exposure of two rudders, but you do have 2. 

I have heard complaints about hand holds, but I wasn't looking when I walked through it. I will look next time. Our 47.7 has ample hand holds.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm sorry - I apologize. I had no intention to trash new designs. Fell for the Boreal which was brand spanking new -Hull number in single digits at the time. It was down to that boat v. the Outbound. The complexity of sailing that boat overwhelmed my wife we both were not excited about the "European "lay out of the galley,and my lack of knowledge in maintenance of Al scared me a bit. What I did want to point out is there are significant differences in boats built to a price and for the charter trade and boats purpose built as long term cruisers. In my prior post I gave a list of vessels with that quality of construction. I think my boat is special but in that list which is not fully inclusive it's not special at all. I tried to point out it's all the hidden things- how the wiring is done, how the bulkheads, tankage, steering, etc. are fitted. It's also the basic layup and design. How the rig, chainplates, rudder post were designed. ?What is their safety margin? service intervals,? service life. I had opportunity to be a silent partner in a small boat building company. It was an eye opener. Man hours are key. Labor remains the major soft cost. To think these large successful production builders are not watching the bottom line and building to a price and profit margin is unfounded thinking. All I was trying to say is what friends who own these boats have told me. When sailed hard and long repair and maintenance can be more expensive and difficult then initially envisioned.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I agree with both "sides" here...for some reason some thought and or started bashing new designs...when in fact some of us were almost daydreaming about sailing some of them like the one pictured...

all boats are compromises...but maybe one thing we can agree on maybe is cost of maintenanance on old versus new boats?

maybe new boats require more expensive upkeep these days? say replacing keel bolts at a more frequent interval? or say modern rigging is more expensive to replace than older style

again I repeat Id think and know Id have a blast sailing these new boats...whatever issues they might or might not have have to do with getting to know and sail them better versus saying they have defficiencies in design.

for example an open transom to me isnt an issue(I sailed on a steel open transom design) boat for many offshore miles and only had to deal with water ingress if boat speed was slower than wave speed for example in rollers in trade wind sailing...but the cockpit was self draining(no drains) and quickly rinsed out.

in any case, get to know your boat!

cheers


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

Out,

You are a gentleman. 

I understand your reasoning (would not go for a Al boat myself). However, in my experience Bene First series are good boats certainly working for many years (yes, there are exceptions - not going into details). 

Bene Sense? Reminds me of the First xxSy series boats (S for Philippe Stark). Innovative and interesting. Still attractive. We will see how the Sense series will work out, practically and so on. 

ATB

/J


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

No matter what is said some one will be offended if you mention a deficiency in a boat. Some one owns the boat you mention and will feel slighted.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't want to be misunderstood. the Sense is a very fine boat. B as a company can do things others have difficulty achieving. They have the deep pockets to allow innovation and actually put it in large scale production. They are well run produce good vessels at a good price and you do get more for your money with the economies of scale. I wasn't bashing and their boats were on the short list. They fell off the list as my wife's goals expanded.
BTW we have a walk through transom. But it is limited in area to allow grp drop boards. The ocean and open boats have full open transoms but achieve speeds where a boarding sea is very unlikely. For us with our limited speeds (still double digits) when surfing the sugar scoop gets wet but cockpit stays dry with the boards in.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

thought id post this here...since it was said a j/111 was so superior and better looking than some of these benes
(Im a great fan of the j boats,however they are not infallible and many have had keel issues and rudder issues)

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/vesse...145-j-111-abandoned-rudder-stock-snapped.html

I know Ill get crap for this, the point all along guys is no boat is perfect...any boat can suffer damage, be rendered useless or be perfect until something happens

oh btw..

I was reading up on the sense series boats and came upon a DOCK N GO swiveling sail drive system that alas is completely computer controlled...and dont know why it hasnt been mentioned yet but I see that more damning and dangerous than dual rudders, high arch, boom, screwed full deck joint etc...

anywhoo


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Think all his technology is great as long as there is a fallback so you can safely run the boat when those systems fail. Personally don't think the Dock and Go should be a deal breaker. This is assuming the owners boat handling skills are sufficient to dock in it's absence. Personally- docking still involves sphincter control for me. Rather have a few more horses in my bow thruster so it actually moves the boat when winds >20k but wouldn't pan this innovation. As said before B does some neat innovation. Time will tell what works out in the long run. What's disappointing is across the market due to increasing expenses and decreasing new sales every attempt to decrease labor hours is made. Many owners don't have the background or prior bad experiences to appreciate what this means to their long term ownership. However as said elsewhere on this site- most boats are not stressed as they are used casually in benign conditions.
Example is two friends doing the snow bird thing, One on a B 50 said he would never do it again. Too hard on the boat and too much expense to refit upon return north. Other on a sister ship had a short haul to do zincs and bottom and is back at it.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> oh btw..
> 
> I was reading up on the sense series boats and came upon a DOCK N GO swiveling sail drive system that alas is completely computer controlled...and dont know why it hasnt been mentioned yet but I see that more damning and dangerous than dual rudders, high arch, boom, screwed full deck joint etc...
> 
> anywhoo


Well, you haven't been paying attention lately, if you've never heard of the DOCK 'N GO system...  That setup has been the subject of numerous discussions, and has been pretty well beaten to death, I thought... 

You're right, however - nothing speaks more clearly as to the sort of 'consumer' Beneteau is targeting with these sorts of boats - folks like David's client who plop down $400K for their first boat in the mid-40 foot range, and then hire someone like David to show them how to _DRIVE_ it... 

The complexity of a system like the DOCK 'N GO scares me, as well, and would seem to make for the sort of boat you'd never want to venture too far away from the services of an _"Certified Service Facility or Repair Techician"_

Here's a situation where the failure of the system appears to have caused a real problem...

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/116873-open-pod-bay-doors-hal.html


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

If a human made something, it can fail. Be it a boat, car plane or what ever. The issue becomes how it fails and when it fails which can be the issue. 

At the end of the day, for some folks, my wife as an example, the sense would be the perfect party boat, maybe a bit of sailing to boot. For me, the hull would be something that could work in how I would like to sail, but the rig etc would not work. All things have compromises. 

Too bad some of us can not afford the party boat, the true racers, and a cruise boat in different slips, at different places, with some means of hyper transport to where the boat is that we need at that time and day........

In the meant time, choose a boat that generally speaking, works as you need it to work, and do not beech at the one that does not fit "your" sailing needs and wants. For some, an Alerion, Morris M series works fine. Not sure either would work for me, but they are pretty boats, as is the Sense for what the design spec is. An outbound is also a good boat for its design spec.

Marty


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, you haven't been paying attention lately, if you've never heard of the DOCK 'N GO system...  That setup has been the subject of numerous discussions, and has been pretty well beaten to death, I thought...
> 
> You're right, however - nothing speaks more clearly as to the sort of 'consumer' Beneteau is targeting with these sorts of boats - folks like David's client who plop down $400K for their first boat in the mid-40 foot range, and then hire someone like David to show them how to _DRIVE_ it...
> 
> ...


thats the thread I was directed too...

sorry for slackin


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

For those who don't read the brochure the Sense I sailed had a vertical "board" at the end of the cockpit that can be raised. It is the full width of the transom and about two feet high, just under the seats. It is on some kind of balancing mechanism so you just have to pull it up to raise it or step on it to have it disappear into the surface of the cockpit.
So there is some protection to boarding seas.

Also you were right about the clientele. My owner had a hard time getting insurance as most of the insurance companies didn't like that this was his first boat.

Dock-and-go is an option and this boat had the standard bow thruster instead.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Dave- I couldn't agree with you more. For it's intended purpose, how did you like the Sense? Sorry I went off on a peeve. Some folks were on the dock having come in on a charter. They asked for a walk through. I was re building a winch but stopped ( plastic do hickey under the self tailer broke) and let them. They asked roughly what it cost. I gave them the base and what they could expect for customizing. They said "Why so much?... It's so much smaller then the Bene.". I asked them to take a walk through of the Morris (Able) at the end of my dock. He had just completed the clock. Think he said he was busy as they left.


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, you haven't been paying attention lately, if you've never heard of the DOCK 'N GO system...  That setup has been the subject of numerous discussions, and has been pretty well beaten to death, I thought...
> 
> You're right, however - nothing speaks more clearly as to the sort of 'consumer' Beneteau is targeting with these sorts of boats - folks like David's client who plop down $400K for their first boat in the mid-40 foot range, and then hire someone like David to show them how to _DRIVE_ it...
> 
> ...


What do you actually know about owners previous experience?
And from where have you got that Bene is targeting that kind of group?

This is the same story, again and again:
I am used to a certain kind of boat and sailing and anyone who comes up with a new concept is bad, bad & bad. GPS is just for sissies, a real navigator .... and so on, endless rant about how new technology is bad, unreliable & undermines your moral.

/J


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I think he was talking about the fact that the sense with the dock and go system computer needed 5 minutes to reboot(this includes engine use) and that is part of the reason that particular skipper and owner ran into trouble...

just a guess
(which has nothing to do with the sailing aspect and or other features of the boat)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Jaramaz said:


> What do you actually know about owners previous experience?
> And from where have you got that Bene is targeting that kind of group?


Sorry, you have apparently mistaken for a _Statement of Fact_ the expression of my own _Opinion_, based primarily on what I am seeing with my own eyes, and hearing with my own ears, as a 'Marine Industry Professional' here on the East coast of the US...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jzk said:


> To say that Beneteau's hull deck joint consists of "screws" is misleading at best.


I was merely repeating, verbatim, what was published in a major national sailing magazine in their review of the Oceanis 38... Perhaps you should take it up with Peter Nielsen, the editor of SAIL 

It might surprise you, and others, that I actually rather like much of what Beneteau has done with the Sense series of boats. I'll bet it's a sweet sailing coastal cruiser, and very well suited to the way many people use their boats today...

Where we disagree, is in your assertion that you would sail a Sense 50 "anywhere in the world"... To me, that's simply one way of endorsing a particular boat as a 'Go-Anywhere', or "Ultimate' Bluewater Voyaging Boat... Sorry, but I don't think any of the Sense Series boats come remotely close to fitting that bill, and a doubt anyone at Beneteau deep down believes so, either... 

As already noted, if you would take a cockpit like this into the high latitudes, or Southern Ocean, you're a far braver man than I... Then again, we've already established I wouldn't cross from Miami to Bimini with 25-foot seas running in the Gulf Stream, either... 








[/QUOTE]

If I were to caption that photo, I would call it _"An Open Invitation to Downflooding"_ One of the most likely tactics to dealing with a storm at sea, might be to lie to a Jordan Series Drogue... Seriously, would you really feel comfortable doing so in an open ocean storm and breaking seas, in a design featuring a characteristic so blatantly unsuited for offshore?

I mentioned the excessive boom height of the 48 I pictured earlier, which would appear to place the boom still a few feet above the noggin of the tallest player in the NBA... Still waiting for someone to point out the possible _advantage_ of placing the sail plan at such a height on a cruising boat?

Of course, any dodger is gonna be integrated with that arch, and hence well beyond any normal human's ability to sight over the top of from the helm underway... I realize I'm in the minority here, with the increasing popularity today of full enclosures and continuous canvas dodger/bimini creations that prevent an unobstructed sightline, but the inability to see over the top of a dodger is a deal-breaker, for me... For others, as long as you never have to sail at night, or in fog or other dirty weather, however, you're probably good to go... 

Now, this Chick Magnet Interior by Ikea, even I must admit I'd be loving that at anchor in the Bahamas, or sitting in a slip in some fancy marina...










However, as an interior for offshore, I see it as nothing short of downright dangerous... Any particular reason you can think of why Beneteau didn't even bother to run a handrail down the centerline of that overhead? Because it might be out of the reach of all but someone like LeBron James, perhaps? Or, maybe because they know experienced offshore sailors are not the Target Demographic for the Sense Series boats, and people don't have overhead handrails in their homes or condos, after all, so why bother?  The folks at Beneteau are smart cookies, their success and popularity is proof positive of that, and they know that very few pairs of eyes boarding their Sense series boats at the Boat Shows are being directed in search of adequate handholds for use in a seaway...

Again, pretty cool boats in numerous respects, no question... But a boat I'd care to "Sail anywhere in the World", no freakin' way... 

Just one man's opinion, as always...


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Hey guys, I don't think Beneteau is marketing the Sense as a "go anywhere blue water boat".

Frankly building a boat that hits the bulls-eye for how a target demographic uses it is a home run. 

And if that design can bring new people into sailing I'm all for it -- we need new blood.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

So what really is the safety issue with an open stern offshore? Of course, I get your theoretical concerns, but has it ever been an issue? Has anyone lost a vessel over it? Is it just the idea of, perhaps, getting more wet that bothers you? Would this stern really get pooped more often? Or would the extra buoyancy aft from the beam make up for it? For one thing, water would drain easier if you did get pooped.

The handhold issue is, of course, a valid concern. If there really are no handholds, shame on Beneteau. We have plenty in our First, and they are used regularly, not just in "blue water," etc.

The review does mention the adhesive and toe rail in description of the deck joint. With the toe rail and the adhesive, are the screws really a concern? Have any of them ever pulled out?



JonEisberg said:


> I was merely repeating, verbatim, what was published in a major national sailing magazine in their review of the Oceanis 38... Perhaps you should take it up with Peter Nielsen, the editor of SAIL
> 
> It might surprise you, and others, that I actually rather like much of what Beneteau has done with the Sense series of boats. I'll bet it's a sweet sailing coastal cruiser, and very well suited to the way many people use their boats today...
> 
> ...


If I were to caption that photo, I would call it _"An Open Invitation to Downflooding"_ One of the most likely tactics to dealing with a storm at sea, might be to lie to a Jordan Series Drogue... Seriously, would you really feel comfortable doing so in an open ocean storm and breaking seas, in a design featuring a characteristic so blatantly unsuited for offshore?

I mentioned the excessive boom height of the 48 I pictured earlier, which would appear to place the boom still a few feet above the noggin of the tallest player in the NBA... Still waiting for someone to point out the possible _advantage_ of placing the sail plan at such a height on a cruising boat?

Of course, any dodger is gonna be integrated with that arch, and hence well beyond any normal human's ability to sight over the top of from the helm underway... I realize I'm in the minority here, with the increasing popularity today of full enclosures and continuous canvas dodger/bimini creations that prevent an unobstructed sightline, but the inability to see over the top of a dodger is a deal-breaker, for me... For others, as long as you never have to sail at night, or in fog or other dirty weather, however, you're probably good to go... 

Now, this Chick Magnet Interior by Ikea, even I must admit I'd be loving that at anchor in the Bahamas, or sitting in a slip in some fancy marina...










However, as an interior for offshore, I see it as nothing short of downright dangerous... Any particular reason you can think of why Beneteau didn't even bother to run a handrail down the centerline of that overhead? Because it might be out of the reach of all but someone like LeBron James, perhaps? Or, maybe because they know experienced offshore sailors are not the Target Demographic for the Sense Series boats, and people don't have overhead handrails in their homes or condos, after all, so why bother?  The folks at Beneteau are smart cookies, their success and popularity is proof positive of that, and they know that very few pairs of eyes boarding their Sense series boats at the Boat Shows are being directed in search of adequate handholds for use in a seaway...

Again, pretty cool boats in numerous respects, no question... But a boat I'd care to "Sail anywhere in the World", no freakin' way... 

Just one man's opinion, as always...[/QUOTE]


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

And, for what it is worth, it seems that at least the Sense 55 has a "transom board" that can be put in place.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jzk said:


> So what really is the safety issue with an open stern offshore? Of course, I get your theoretical concerns, but has it ever been an issue? Has anyone lost a vessel over it? Is it just the idea of, perhaps, getting more wet that bothers you? Would this stern really get pooped more often? Or would the extra buoyancy aft from the beam make up for it? For one thing, water would drain easier if you did get pooped.





jzk said:


> And, for what it is worth, it seems that at least the Sense 55 has a "transom board" that can be put in place.


Last time I checked, the weight of a cubic yard of seawater is still right around 1 ton... Anyone thinks one of those "transom boards" is gonna withstand the force of a large breaking sea when lying to a drogue in a storm in the open ocean, Dream On... 

My problem with that cockpit, the complete absence of any sort of bridgedeck offering some measure of the companionway against downflooding, is that it is an undesirable _CHARACTERISTIC_ in an offshore yacht... People like Olin Stephens and Jim McCurdy can explain it far better than I can:










Sure, my concern is largely "theoretical", I doubt a Beneteau Sense has ever been lost to downflooding due to the unlikely probability that one has ever faced the sort of scenario I describe... but is is certainly a likely scenario to be faced by any sailor who might choose to sail "anywhere in the world"... Or, perhaps even in a passage as commonplace or pedestrian as the Caribbean 1500...

Sure, you've heard that the glass used in that sliding porch door is "very strong"... However, that doesn't override the fact that the _DESIGN_ of that cockpit could be very vulnerable in heavy weather... it has nothing to do with how robust the construction may or may not be, nor whether the boat is built by Beneteau, Hunter, or whomever... I'd have the same criticism if it was built by Morris, or Lyman Morse, as well...

It's impossible to underestimate the forces that the sea can offer up. This account of the sinking of the yacht NADINE (recently again made famous in THE WOLF OF WALL STREET) in a mistral in the Med offers a powerful reminder of that fact... A pretty compelling account, this yacht was literally torn apart by the force of boarding waves...

Mayday In The Med ? Yachts International

Yeah, I keep hearing about how "strong" the glass is in the picture windows being stuck in the topsides of all the latest and greatest production yachts today, how much stronger it is than the hull material itself, blah, blah, blah...

Well, based upon what I've seen with my own eyes, and heard with my own ears, I remain skeptical - to say the least... 

Many folks seem to forget, one doesn't have to be a thousand miles from the nearest land, or crossing the Drake Passage, for a sailing yacht to suffer some occasional _'Stress'_...


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

I remember your account of that boat tied up. What brand/model is it? What was happening to it?

I saw Nadine at the Miami Beach Marina back in the 1990s. What does that have to do with the design of the Sense vs. other designs?

It seems to me that you judge the world by "feeling" rather than actual science. That is ok, as many people do.

But the result is that many of your concerns and risk analysis will end up never being a concern while greater risks may go unnoticed.

What boat do you sail?


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## Jaramaz (Aug 9, 2013)

Well, it seems that we will get answers in the style of



> Sorry, you have apparently mistaken for a Statement of Fact the expression of my own Opinion, based primarily on what I am seeing with my own eyes, and hearing with my own ears, as a 'Marine Industry Professional' here on the East coast of the US...


ie, opinions which grounds we are not to discuss, while Jon continue to repeat his arguments.

We see this with the discussion around the open stern. According to Jon this is bad, very bad, and when pointed out that there are means to cover up the opeing Jon replys that this will not work, and anyone who thinks otherwize is dreaming.

Actually, I do not know how this detail is constructed. It is somehow difficult to see why the manufacturer should make such an equipment if it doesn't work.

Jon is bringing up that the Sense is not designed for ocean sailing, and argues around this. Is there any manufacturer that garantuees that a sailing boat will survive any Ocean crossing?

But of course, we are left with


> my own Opinion


 instead of a discussion based on facts.

/J


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Well here is the thing. Is the Sense the best suited boat for an Antarctic expedition? Probably not. But who is doing that? If the Sense is constructed anything like the First 47.7, then it is one tough boat. When I say "sail her anywhere" I mean the kind of normal circumnavigation that one might do with their family. 

There are issues and there are issues. What is with the rigs falling down on 20 year old Island Packets because the chainplates are bonded into a steel structure that just rusts like the Hunters do? I know that when the 47.7 is 20 years old, it will not have that problem. And, I will never have a problem with the screws in the hull deck joint.

When I arrived in Macinaw Island in 2011 after the "Mac Storm," I saw all the damage to the boats. Lost rigs, bent booms, blown out main sails. Our boat handled it with extreme confidence. I only wish that our stern was more like the Sense, or better the Oceanis 45. That fold down stern platform is absolutely sweet.

We have these windows molded into the hull. I have no concern about them. It would be nice to better secure the floor boards if going on a circumnavigation. I have never been knocked down, but I have heeled pretty close to 90 degrees in a big gust. Be nice to know those floor boards weren't coming out.

The biggest problem with circumnavigating in our current boat would probably be the keel depth at just a touch over seven and a half.

Again, the Sense probably isn't the most blue water boat out there, but on your dock, she will certainly be in the top quarter of tough boats. That is far from being a "marina queen."


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Some things seem self evident here.

The boat has an open stern and a deck level companion way opening. There don't appear to be adequate hand holds below. The boom is high. 

I'd like the hear the arguments that these are good offshore features. Jon has presented logical arguments that they are not, and even offered some reading material to back this up.

Now for the opinion part. i wouldn't take it offshore either.



That said, I wouldn't mind chartering one with my bud's in the BVI's. To quote Bob Murray from Stripes, "it would be party time, battalion style!"


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

guys seriously, deviating a bit here

like the points above if any body thinks a low step companionway that is right in line with an open transom is remotely blue water worthy I suggest doing a bit more sailing...

one thing is to enjoy the pros and cons of each boat, (another is to be blind...) admire technoligical breakthroughs, gadgets and gizmos or simply enjoy how well it sails or clean your butt in the gold bidet in the wc...

I guess Im not understanding where people cant see the other side of the argument...

I also dont undesrtant how this became a crap fest for benes...Im sorry I was even part of it...

edit: for what its worth my dad back when we lived in spain bought a brand new benetau(or jenneau) 29 in the late 80s, top of the line back then and I have fond memories of it...not that there is any comparison to the boats today...so I can like many a boat, jajaja


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Why does this always happen with these disguised commercial threads?

Don't you guys know critical thinking is not appreciated?

Comments are welcome, but only if they are positive in nature!

Every new boat is a wonder, capable of everything one could want in a boat: bluewater cruiser, racer/fast around the buoys, and roomy as the dockside condominium.

Given the oversupply of quality, used boats for every particular purpose, and at a cost of 1/20th - 1/50th of the cost of a new boat, a new boat must be all things for all sailors. Mind you, they are not bought just because they have a roomy, pretty interior good for dock parties, one that would make the wife happy. Plus, they are really shiny and have no strange odors or stains inside (at least not yet)! [Hey, boat show visitor stop spending so much time in the head with the door closed!]

The fact that they are usually bought by new sailors who don't know any better, and will defend their choices, just shows how good they must really be...uke


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Who would choose a low step companionway right in line with an open transom in a blue water boat with a wide stern and 2 rudders?

Let's have a look:






Not saying the Sense is of this caliber, but the idea that those features are incompatible with a blue water boat is just pure NON-Sense.



christian.hess said:


> guys seriously, deviating a bit here
> 
> like the points above if any body thinks a low step companionway that is right in line with an open transom is remotely blue water worthy I suggest doing a bit more sailing...
> 
> ...


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

jzk said:


> ...but the idea that those features are incompatible with a blue water boat is just pure NON-Sense.


Finally, something we can all agree on: this thread is nonSENSE....:laugher


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

One other feature not discussed as of yet is the iron keel. Why is an iron keel desirable?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jzk said:


> Who would choose a low step companionway right in line with an open transom in a blue water boat with a wide stern and 2 rudders?
> 
> Let's have a look:
> 
> ...


this argument is beyond dumb...

sorry man you are completely out of context and simply cant understand what I at least am talking about...

anybody who compares anything on ANY boat and sailboat for that matter with a volvo ocean boat and crew is akin to comparing a model airplane with a nasa space shuttle

STOP the comparisons its NONSENSICAL

I never understand why reading comprehension is so lacking on some of these threads...

but for sake of argument sir, the REASON you might think its remotely similar is BECAUSE the volvo ocean boats SURF faster than the speed of those waves, and the goal is always to plow into the following waves...

they are downwind machines foremost and RACING machines...

a sense is neither, despite the fact that it might look like it...

with this im out

so sad people cant think beyond their prejudices some times


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

You are the one that made the statement that those features were not blue water worthy. Did you not?



christian.hess said:


> this argument is beyond dumb...
> 
> sorry man you are completely out of context and simply cant understand what I at least am talking about...
> 
> ...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jzk I dont understand this from you:

you accused me of saying the bene sense series was ugly when I never did
you said, I said it was not bluewater worthy(I did not, I said the open transom and low companionway was not) these are features not the boat as a whole
you contimnually say Im the one accusing the sense series of being a bad boat or badly built when I have not, others HAVE matter of fact.

why is it you chose me over others here, if anything I have validated points for both types of boats, new and old, euro and or american if you will I have also stated the reasons why I believe there is some confsuion as to what constitutes bluewater or not

why are you chosing to argue with me over those that have blatantly criticised these boats?

in fact when someone posted about the transom board I actually agreed that for relatively mild cruising this is fine

I also stated that I HAVE sailed many ocean miles on an open transom boat(with no ill results)

why do you insist on telling me the things I am already concurring with or at least partially agreeing with?

here is the reason why a LOW COMPANIONWAY is not seaworthy for even a sense series boat.

UNLESS you sail all upwind and even then never expect to get water(waves) crashing into you even from the sides the low companionway offers a *direct flooding path*

volvo ocean boat dont. they are designed to sail faster than the waves or at same speeds, they float over the water and are by no means a displacement boat. THAT is the key distinction.

they also have a puny(small) companionway.

the sense series boats to my understanding arent designed to surf at 30knots in the southerlies...especially since I see cokpit chairs and a nice glass sliding window. that does not mean you couldnt do it.

but so can a laser that doesnt mean its designed to cross the bay or deep water is it?

I guess Im just not understandin why you are picking me to make your points...

peace


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Got a tour of one of those Volvo boats. I decided it wasn't for me when they showed me the seat belt so you could stay seated on the head when dropping off waves. Nav station was gimbaled. They often wear dive masks so they can see through the spray. 

I assume the Sense is equipped with that stuff as well, after all staying seated whilst surfing the roaring 40's ain't trivial. 

I'll lend out my Gopro to anyone who's willing to take this boat down there.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

I certainly don't mean to be directing my point all at you. My point is that this boat is being portrayed as being designed for cocktail parties at the dock, not for sailing. And I said that it is probably quite the sailing machine. If it is anything like the 47.7, it is probably one tough boat.

Additionally I have been trying to caution against armchair critics like the guy that criticized the screws in the hull deck joint. Theoretically bolts sound better to me, but with the adhesive, this is a concern that will never amount to anything. 99.99 % of the time it will make no difference. If it ever does, I wonder how much it would make anyway.

Same with the stern. You might swamp the cockpit more often, but will this really prevent you from crossing oceans? Has anyone ever blown out those stern boards? These are all concerns that no one is really going to experience.

But those Island Packets with the steel chain plate supports are really dropping masts. Google it.

On the Jordan series drogue website, they have a testimonial of a hunter that was moored stern to in a hurricane with an open stern. Yes, they took a bunch of water and had flooding. But they survived.

Why am I not allowed to comment on these design features? I even brought some up about Beneteau that I don't like that were not even mentioned.

Here is one thing I don't like about the Oceanis 45. They have this very shallow sloped companion way entrance. I think it is a waste of space. It eliminates a nice section of working cockpit that we have and use to operate the cabin top winches, etc. and the line storage on the sides of the entrance.



christian.hess said:


> jzk I dont understand this from you:
> 
> you accused me of saying the bene sense series was ugly when I never did
> you said, I said it was not bluewater worthy(I did not, I said the open transom and low companionway was not) these are features not the boat as a whole
> ...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

it just seemed that way...we agree more than we disagree...I guess.

regarding chainplates I agree too...too many boats arent built well...new AND old

but I think this has little to do with the thread and subject matte pertaining to the sailing abilities quirks and all of the new benetaeu boats.

regarding the screw fastening system...its not that dissimilar to stich and glue systems in composite wood buiilding I assume...

however to me unlike say a through bolted joint you have a due(repair) date once the glue fails there would be a much faster rate of comming apart than if through bolted... once half of the fastening method fails.

this is the same argument wood boat builders had between riveted and fastened(screwed) planking...

one is screwed the other is riveted...guess which one has the better record and reputation of being strong? longer lasting? given the same materials used(bronze for example)


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

If you recall, this all started with the OP worrying about whether this boat could handle more than 15-20 knots. I said, you bet it can! It can handle more than most could throw at it.

What is the adhesive life on the Beneteau hull deck joint? I have no issue flushing out problems. I could find the punch list that was wrong with ours.

As I think I already said, the bilge drain system is a joke. Compartments fill that I cant even get to. Etc. Etc. Etc. But if it blows 50 knots, I have no worries other than the worries that one should be having in 50 knots. The boat will be fine. I can't say enough how pleasantly surprised I was to learn how tough this boat is. I used to make fun of the bendy-toys also.



christian.hess said:


> it just seemed that way...we agree more than we disagree...I guess.
> 
> regarding chainplates I agree too...too many boats arent built well...new AND old
> 
> ...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I agree with that...his biggest concern was performance after 15 degrees of heel no? worried that it wasnt designed to sail at large angles of heel.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

jzk said:


> ... I said, you bet it can! It can handle more than most could throw at it...


It is difficult not to notice that you have put up quite the spirited defense of this particular boat model.

Care to reveal what your true interests are in the matter? Manufacturing rep? Broker? PR guy?

Why do you give a shizzle?


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

There was that, which is fine, but it was the concern with whether the boat could take it. I am all for reefing and having the right amount of sail.

Here is another feature of our boat that only an IDIOT would design. The ice box drains into the refrigerator. Then, the refrigerator has a drain that runs to the foot pump in the galley which has a selector to chose raw water or this refrigerator drain. If one has ice in the ice box, several times per day, once must pump out this drain or the bottom of the fridge will over flow. This not only gets everything on the bottom of the fridge wet, but it leaks onto the cherry wood in the interior, and then the water wicks up the wood.

For this amount of water, why not just drain into the bilge like the air conditioner drains? Or at least have a larger reservoir so that one doesn't have to pump a small amount of water so many times per day.



christian.hess said:


> I agree with that...his biggest concern was performance after 15 degrees of heel no? worried that it wasnt designed to sail at large angles of heel.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

well to lighten up the mood thats just plain STUPID! jajajajajajja

back in the day people thought stuff draining into the bilge was stupid...you know keel bolts and all...

see how "perceptions" change....over the years...only to repeat themselves


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jzk said:


> I remember your account of that boat tied up. What brand/model is it? What was happening to it?


I'd rather not say, that's why I blurred the image... Anyone with a good eye could still figure it out, anyway... No, it was not a Beneteau  Rather, another very popular Euro built boat, one named a recent "Boat of the Year" by one of the glossy rags, as a matter of fact...

She was being pressed against the Charleston Marina Megadock in a gale, fenders completely flattened by the pressure, to the extent that the hull right at the height of one of the picture windows was making contact with the top edge of the dock. I helped them try to get more fenders in place. The amount of inward deflection of the hull was shocking to behold, and the cracking noises being produced were most disconcerting  The fact that this was all taking place within about 2 feet of the shroud chainplates was simply mind-boggling...



jzk said:


> I saw Nadine at the Miami Beach Marina back in the 1990s. What does that have to do with the design of the Sense vs. other designs?


I thought I made it clear, I was simply offering that account up as a compelling reminder of the awesome power of the sea... It's always been my understanding that the ocean doesn't discriminate between boats in the application of its power, the same forces that tore a 130-foot motoryacht apart would apply when acting upon a 50' Beneteau Sense, as well...



jzk said:


> It seems to me that you judge the world by "feeling" rather than actual science. That is ok, as many people do.


Well, as I've stated, I prefer to believe what my own Lyin' Eyes and Ears have told me, over time...

Here are a couple of pics of the vaunted 'Transom Board/Panel' on the Sense 55... So, I think I'll stick with my original "feeling", that anyone who thinks that thing would keep a large breaking sea from inundating that cockpit in the right conditions, is _Dreaming_... 



















I see what appears to be a rather thin fiberglass panel, without any evidence of any sort of structural reinforcement, trimmed on the top edge with a bit of teak... Now, it could be some sort of cored, composite panel of higher strength, I would certainly hope so... However, one can see in the second pic, it is not even being given any additional structural support by simply being attached to the inner sides of the transom, but is rather 'floating free'... Moreover, it barely manages to rise to the height of the cockpit _SEATS_, much less the surrounding cockpit coamings... Folks are free to believe what they want to believe, of course - but in my opinion, all those design elements taken together do not constitute a _"DESIRABLE CHARACTERISTIC"_ in an offshore sailing yacht, much less one that could be reasonably endorsed as a boat to be safely taken anywhere in the world...

Again, that's just my "feeling"... So, what does your "actual science" have to say about the resistance of that panel to a few tons of seawater impacting it at 20 mph or so, as the boat was lying to a drogue in storm conditions?



jzk said:


> What boat do you sail?


Hmmm, I was afraid you'd ask that  It's a Macgregor 26...

Nah, just kidding... But, what difference would it make if I did, would my arguments be invalidated somehow? I've had the good fortune over the years to sail a pretty wide assortment of boats, so most of my impressions and views re what works, and what doesn't, has come from sailing boats other than my own, anyway...

My own little tub happens to be a 40+ year old Allied Chance 30-30... Although mine is highly customized, bears little resemblance to the boat Brit Chance originally drew, or the crew at Allied built...

Hopelessly outdated and superseded by the newer boats of today, I realize, but she still gets around... I doubt I'll run into too many Beneteau Senses where I hope to get to this summer


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

Ok, just curious.

BTW, a former dock neighbor had 2 MacGreggor 26's. Maybe they were 25s. He lived on one in the summer in Chicago, and the other in Florida in the winter. I rarely saw him leave the dock, but maybe he did. But, he was the happiest guy I ever met.

Forces on Nadine are of a whole different caliber. Because of scale, it is much harder to design a mega yacht like that than a sailboat. An empty 2 liter bottle of diet coke with the cap screwed on is much more structurally sound than Nadine could ever be. I must say that she was an interesting sight with the airplane and all.

Nice looking boat, btw.



JonEisberg said:


> I'd rather not say, that's why I blurred the image... Anyone with a good eye could still figure it out, anyway... No, it was not a Beneteau  Rather, another very popular Euro built boat, one named a recent "Boat of the Year" by one of the glossy rags, as a matter of fact...
> 
> She was being pressed against the Charleston Marina Megadock in a gale, fenders completely flattened by the pressure, to the extent that the hull right at the height of one of the picture windows was making contact with the top edge of the dock. I helped them try to get more fenders in place. The amount of inward deflection of the hull was shocking to behold, and the cracking noises being produced were most disconcerting  The fact that this was all taking place within about 2 feet of the shroud chainplates was simply mind-boggling...
> 
> ...


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

I would prefer a dry bilge myself, but that sure seems impossible on our boat. What about draining into the shower sump then? Anything has to be better than just letting it run all over the floor boards.



christian.hess said:


> well to lighten up the mood thats just plain STUPID! jajajajajajja
> 
> back in the day people thought stuff draining into the bilge was stupid...you know keel bolts and all...
> 
> see how "perceptions" change....over the years...only to repeat themselves


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

the board doesnt even go to the edges to make a seemmless contact point...

people often underestimate how much pressure a wave can muster...that gap could be enough to sink a mid 30s boat if its hit just right with a monster wave

anywhoo

back to deflecting hulls

I used to dock walk a lot on any marina I could get into...one of my favourite things to do was to try to push in hulls with my hands...to get a feeling for the robustness of certain makes and models of boats...

depending on what marina or club I did this I could get as many as all of them to deflect or none...

sometimes it was scary...just putting a hand to the hull and having it flex like that....


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

jzk said:


> I would prefer a dry bilge myself, but that sure seems impossible on our boat. What about draining into the shower sump then? Anything has to be better than just letting it run all over the floor boards.


use what they use for shower macerators...

you can design a 5 galon or so compartment, with a strainers, macerator and pump to drain wherever you want since you wont have many solids just make a small compartment even portable if you like that wont need to be drained as often

say instead of twice a day, more like once a week

but I like simplicity


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Jaramaz said:


> Well, it seems that we will get answers in the style of
> 
> ie, opinions which grounds we are not to discuss, while Jon continue to repeat his arguments.


Huh? My opinions expressed here are not open to discussion? Care to show where I've suggested any such thing? You know, like using actual _words_ I've written, instead of your imagination?



Jaramaz said:


> We see this with the discussion around the open stern. According to Jon this is bad, very bad, and when pointed out that there are means to cover up the opeing Jon replys that this will not work, and anyone who thinks otherwize is dreaming.
> 
> Actually, I do not know how this detail is constructed. It is somehow difficult to see why the manufacturer should make such an equipment if it doesn't work.


LMAO! Let's see, you admit that you know nothing of how the 'Transom Board' is constructed, yet my take on its utility is dismissed for being a mere _"OPINION"_, while your take on it should be construed - again, absent any real _Knowledge_ regarding its construction - as _WHAT_, precisely?

If it's not Knowledge, nor Opinion, then it must be _FAITH_, perhaps? Your _Faith_ that Beneteau, or any other builder, would never, _EVER_ build something that didn't work, or withstand any rigors that the ocean might ever dish out?

YCMTSU...



Jaramaz said:


> Jon is bringing up that the Sense is not designed for ocean sailing, and argues around this. Is there any manufacturer that garantuees that a sailing boat will survive any Ocean crossing?
> 
> But of course, we are left with instead of a discussion based on facts.
> 
> /J


You've obviously lost sight of the fact that I did not initiate the discussion of the Sense's suitability for sailing offshore. I have repeatedly tried to make clear, my comments are in response to the claim of another poster that these are boats that he would sail "Anywhere in the World", a characterization with which I happen to disagree...

Meanwhile, we still await any _"Facts"_ you might wish to introduce into the discussion...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I believe many people don't truly realize the immense force that moving water can exert. This includes the folks who design some of the flimsy stuff seen on modern boats. The structure of basic stuff that really counts seems often to be very fragile in newer boats. It's in some other world of nautical reality. I don't know why this should happen because the progressive engineering, evolved over thousands of years of trial and error, is well documented. There IS data and factual information readily available. Unfortunately, it seems that economics, comfort, and appearance have trumped basic common sense as of late. 
Perhaps a prerequisite for new designers of FRP boats should be to get into whitewater canoeing or kayaking on a class 3-5 river so they can actually experience first-hand, the immediate and destructive force of moving water where a lee shore (2 of them) is always available


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## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

I skimmed through the 100 pages of this thread and wondered what the good folks here thought about the lack of a traveler? 

I've raced a 2012ish 50.5 Moorings/Bene at the BVI Regatta the past couple of years. It has the arch with the blocks above like this Sense. I'm not a big fan. The 50.5 carries a proportionally small headsail so the main becomes the primary power provider, much like a modern catamaran. I would have really liked to see a proper traveler on the arch like a (gasp) Hunter... You can't just ease the traveler in the puffs, you are in essence dumping the main sheet. Not the most efficient sail shape. Why would Bene do this? Cost savings? Why not have it as an option?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

FarCry said:


> I skimmed through the 100 pages of this thread and wondered what the good folks here thought about the lack of a traveler?
> 
> I've raced a 2012ish 50.5 Moorings/Bene at the BVI Regatta the past couple of years. It has the arch with the blocks above like this Sense. I'm not a big fan. The 50.5 carries a proportionally small headsail so the main becomes the primary power provider, much like a modern catamaran. I would have really liked to see a proper traveler on the arch like a (gasp) Hunter... You can't just ease the traveler in the puffs, you are in essence dumping the main sheet. Not the most efficient sail shape. Why would Bene do this? Cost savings? Why not have it as an option?


Good catch... Among the numerous quibbles I have with the boats, I somehow overlooked that one 

Again, I think that choice speaks to the Target Demographic for these boats. Folks looking for simplicity, ease of handling, and so on, more than performance and 'tweakability' ... I'd bet that during the entire 5 days of the Annapolis Boat Show, you could count on one hand the number of people who boarded a Sense, and inquired as to whether the addition of a traveler might be a factory option... I'm guessing that for every question asked, or comment made about the boat's sailhandling, there were about 100 posed or made about _THE JOYSTICK_... 

Another deal-breaker, for me, is the extremely swept spreaders... Maybe just me, but for offshore and the sort of sailing I prefer to do, some of these modern rigs just don't work at all... The Trintellas I've sailed over the years convinced me I'd never want deeply swept spreaders on a boat for extended or offshore cruising...

I saw an Oceanis 41 here in Baddeck this weekend, and I'm still mystified by the ridiculous height of the arch, and the boom... What is the freakin' _POINT_ ???










Moreover, most of these boats feature in-mast furling... Say you had to contend with some sort of jam or breakage in the outhaul/furling block at the end of the boom, in a breeze, and in a seaway... How the hell would you _REACH_ the damn thing? Especially, given the massive Cockpit Canvas Contraptions one of these boats is likely to be sporting?

Aw, hell, what am I thinking ? Something like that would _NEVER_ happen, right?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Yup


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Well golly.



JonEisberg said:


> Last time I checked, the weight of a cubic yard of seawater is still right around 1 ton... Anyone thinks one of those "transom boards" is gonna withstand the force of a large breaking sea when lying to a drogue in a storm in the open ocean, Dream On...
> 
> My problem with that cockpit, the complete absence of any sort of bridgedeck offering some measure of the companionway against downflooding, is that it is an undesirable _CHARACTERISTIC_ in an offshore yacht... People like Olin Stephens and Jim McCurdy can explain it far better than I can


I certainly don't consider myself to be in the same class as Mr. Stephens or Mr. McCurdy. I am however a degreed and experienced naval architect and marine engineer (Webb Institute '82). It is in that context that I offer the following opinions and observations of fact.

The practical difference between an open transom and a closed one is purely statistical. I haven't run the numbers but I will say as a matter of educated opinion that the difference between a flooded cockpit on that boat with an open transom and a closed one is relatively small, perhaps a 15 or 20 percent probability. I would be more concerned with downflooding if the companionway is left open.

Ultimately bridgedecks are a recognition that people are not well behaved and leave the companionway open when they should not. Boards will certainly leak but the amount of water isn't significant to stability although it can make an unholy mess that may have an impact on crew morale and fatigue.

Many of the other characteristics Jon and others have observed I fully agree are not desirable and could be addressed without undue impact on the attractiveness of the boat, inside and out.

Overhead hand rails could easily be fitted. The console between the dinette (or whatever more elegant name Beneteau uses these days) could be moved closer to the galley to provide bracing to the cook. A fold down seat could increase the capacity of the dinette.

Please don't get me started on the unfortunate location of the head.

Why on earth would anyone put an arch like that on a boat and NOT put on a full width traveler?

I'm not a fan of sail drives.

On the other hand tankage is nice and the storage on deck looks way better than most modern boats.



jzk said:


> If you recall, this all started with the OP worrying about whether this boat could handle more than 15-20 knots. I said, you bet it can! It can handle more than most could throw at it.


I agree. Like most modern hull forms I suspect this boat will perform best on her feet. On more than one boat I have been able to go faster with a reef in the main.



jzk said:


> What is the adhesive life on the Beneteau hull deck joint?


I don't know what the life is. I can say categorically that the function of fasteners, bolts or screws, is to hold the parts together until the adhesive and sealant set up.



jzk said:


> For this amount of water, why not just drain into the bilge like the air conditioner drains? Or at least have a larger reservoir so that one doesn't have to pump a small amount of water so many times per day.


In my opinion nothing should drain into the bilge. That approach is bad design. Shower drains lead to dead skin, soap, and hair - smells bad and clogs bilge pumps. Refrigerators and ice boxes lead to food scraps - smells bad and clogs bilge pumps. A/C condensate leads to algae - smells bad and clogs bilge pumps. All lead to corrosion, mold, and mildew.

Certainly people have drained all kinds of things into the bilge. That doesn't make it a good idea.



JonEisberg said:


> She was being pressed against the Charleston Marina Megadock in a gale, fenders completely flattened by the pressure, to the extent that the hull right at the height of one of the picture windows was making contact with the top edge of the dock. I helped them try to get more fenders in place. The amount of inward deflection of the hull was shocking to behold, and the cracking noises being produced were most disconcerting  The fact that this was all taking place within about 2 feet of the shroud chainplates was simply mind-boggling...


There are more than a couple of issues here.

First, fiberglass is darn strong stuff. Deflection is not a measure of strength. Story: I worked on the deck structure of the USS Avenger MCM-1 after commissioning. The MCM-1 class is glass, wood, and some aluminum to avoid the magnetic fields that can trigger some mines. The crew, particularly the bridge crew, were very unhappy with the soft feel of the decks. They weren't imagining anything - the deflection just walking across the deck was measurable. We/I did a lot of analysis and some empirical testing. There was no question that the decks were plenty strong enough. Unlike steel or aluminum, fiberglass that is strong enough for it's purpose will still deflect noticeably. After a lot of action between NAVSEA engineers and Navy psychologists a decision was made to design for deflection and not strength. I won't bore you with the details, but the upshot is that the ultimate solution was a good bit heavier, ten times the strength it needed to be, and didn't deflect noticeably when walking across it.

All that said cracking noises as reported by Jon is a cause for concern. If it is racking of the wood furniture I would not be concerned about the structural integrity. If it is associated with delamination of the glass I would worry a lot.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I like posts like that

hell yeah


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

I would much prefer a traveler myself, but the thought is to use the vang for the same purpose.

The arch pictured seems pretty high to me as well. What is the purpose of that height?



FarCry said:


> I skimmed through the 100 pages of this thread and wondered what the good folks here thought about the lack of a traveler?
> 
> I've raced a 2012ish 50.5 Moorings/Bene at the BVI Regatta the past couple of years. It has the arch with the blocks above like this Sense. I'm not a big fan. The 50.5 carries a proportionally small headsail so the main becomes the primary power provider, much like a modern catamaran. I would have really liked to see a proper traveler on the arch like a (gasp) Hunter... You can't just ease the traveler in the puffs, you are in essence dumping the main sheet. Not the most efficient sail shape. Why would Bene do this? Cost savings? Why not have it as an option?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> Moreover, most of these boats feature in-mast furling... Say you had to contend with some sort of jam or breakage in the outhaul/furling block at the end of the boom, in a breeze, and in a seaway... How the hell would you _REACH_ the damn thing? Especially, given the massive Cockpit Canvas Contraptions one of these boats is likely to be sporting?
> 
> Aw, hell, what am I thinking ? Something like that would _NEVER_ happen, right?


A couple of years back, watched a guy with a large, spanking new, zillion dollar sailboat bob around for hours trying to free a jammed in-mast permanently half furled sail a couple of years back. It does not seem like a good idea to put critical equipment where it is not accessible.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smurphny said:


> A couple of years back, watched a guy with a large, spanking new, zillion dollar sailboat bob around for hours trying to free a jammed in-mast permanently half furled sail a couple of years back. It does not seem like a good idea to put critical equipment where it is not accessible.


Damn, I hope that wasn't _ME_... 

How would you like to deal with an 'issue' with this Leisure-Furl some dirty night, say, halfway down the rhumb line of the Caribbean 1500?

I'd love to see the proper jackline setup for _that_ contingency


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

hey at least those guys can reach the boom




AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> Well golly.
> 
> I certainly don't consider myself to be in the same class as Mr. Stephens or Mr. McCurdy. I am however a degreed and experienced naval architect and marine engineer (Webb Institute '82). It is in that context that I offer the following opinions and observations of fact.
> 
> ...


Excellent post, Dave... I'm always happy to defer to the technical expertise of folks like yourself, and Jeff H...

Still, a 15-20% differential in probability seems to me nothing to sneeze at, so I think I'll stick with my preference for a "real" transom on any boat I'd take offshore... After all, I think we both know, even in a patch of water containing millions of waves, sometimes all it takes is just _ONE_...


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> Damn, I hope that wasn't _ME_...
> 
> How would you like to deal with an 'issue' with this Leisure-Furl some dirty night, say, halfway down the rhumb line of the Caribbean 1500?
> 
> I'd love to see the proper jackline setup for _that_ contingency


Was it near Fisher's Island I just can't understand why people want to enclose themselves in a plastic tent like that. Why go sailing if you can't be outside most of the time? I haven't even put a Bimini on... yet although the boat came with a huge canvas shade/rain cover contraption which is nice to have when stationary for a while.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

If you guys don't like the companionway wait until you see the companion way doors.

They are four vertical pieces of smoked glass material that fold two to a side and don't seem to have any way to keep them open and it looked like you needed the key to keep them latched, but I could be wrong on that detail.

Personally that was the design feature that seemed most unfinished to me. Almost like the whole boat was done then someone said, "put some door on that hole".


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

This post is becoming like the steel boat thread. OR some others. WHAT is the intended use of the boat at hand? If it is a dock queen, so be it! The sense seems to be a boat that will get across a pond if need be, but not something that most would want at the end of the day.

Open transom, if a V70, going 20 some odd knots boat speed, an open transom is probably a VERY GOOD thing to have, or your boat will always have a cockpit full of water! I doubt that the offshore racing rule for how quick a cockpit can drain takes into count the example I just gave.

You can all go back to your saying why you do not like the boat, meanwhile, my wife would love this thing, I would not from a rigging standpoint, but that is another issue and story. I'm sure we could float around the salish sea and do very well and comfortible in thia


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

smurphny said:


> A couple of years back, watched a guy with a large, spanking new, zillion dollar sailboat bob around for hours trying to free a jammed in-mast permanently half furled sail a couple of years back. It does not seem like a good idea to put critical equipment where it is not accessible.


I've had a handful of furling jams on various boats. I've been fortunate that none have been in heavy weather. All but one were dealt with by tacking back and forth until the jam (usually a fold) freed. One, in light air, required going up to the spreaders and pulling hard. A lot. For a long time. *grump*

Jon's scenario of a failure of any kind that requires access to the end of the boom is more worrisome on high boom boats, or those with full enclosures; the latter are even worse with a field of solar panels over the bimini.



JonEisberg said:


> Still, a 15-20% differential in probability seems to me nothing to sneeze at, so I think I'll stick with my preference for a "real" transom on any boat I'd take offshore... After all, I think we both know, even in a patch of water containing millions of waves, sometimes all it takes is just _ONE_...


I understand the concern. When talking about risk it is useful to consider probability and impact as independent variables.

Remember that the differential I offered was an opinion and not a calculated value. Still, let's run with it for purposes of discussion. Let's also ignore downflooding for a moment. Assume a prolonged run in heavy weather. If my number is correct if a structurally closed transom boat ended up with a cockpit full of water four times (each one of which would take some time to drain through 2" cockpit drains) then the open transom design might sustain five cockpit flooding events, each of which would drain pretty fast.

That means the probability of a cockpit flood may be higher for an open transom boat but the impact (ignoring downflooding) is less.

So what difference does it make? Now a 



 reduces stability but a cockpit full of water shouldn't be enough. That leaves downflooding. In and of itself that isn't the end of the world. Secondary failures (loss of electronics and other electrical systems, washing items into the bilge that clog pumps, and most importantly the impact on crew) can be a real problem.

As Jon so aptly states, sometimes all it takes is just _ONE_. When you're at sea if your cockpit fills with water up to your knees statistics simply aren't relevant any more. Calculations are useful tools for designers and during the selection process. In real life things happen and you have to deal with them. It doesn't matter how unlikely an event is if it actually does happen to you.



davidpm said:


> If you guys don't like the companionway wait until you see the companion way doors.


Oh man. What you describe does not sound good at all.

I was content with conventional boards on my boat offshore, and have been on deliveries. I haven't been impressed with any of the more exotic closures I've encountered. They are fine for inshore and near-shore and even some minor offshore sailing but I always worried about them. If we get back to serious cruising I sure would like something like what Beth and Evans put on Hawk. _THAT_ is a door. *grin*



blt2ski said:


> WHAT is the intended use of the boat at hand?


Excellent question. The Sense doesn't even need to be a dock queen to be a good boat.

For day sailing and weekending she should be a wonderful platform. She'd be fine for the average cruiser although I would still be concerned about leakage down the companionway from windblown rain in thunderstorms and the lack of handholds.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

The Sense 50 & 55 have clear boards that recess down with a push of a button. It is kind of cool as long as there is a very easy manual way to raise them if the electric fails.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

SVAuspicious said:


> As Jon so aptly states, sometimes all it takes is just _ONE_. When you're at sea if your cockpit fills with water up to your knees statistics simply aren't relevant any more. Calculations are useful tools for designers and during the selection process. In real life things happen and you have to deal with them. It doesn't matter how unlikely an event is if it actually does happen to you.
> 
> Oh man. What you describe does not sound good at all.
> 
> I was content with conventional boards on my boat offshore, and have been on deliveries. I haven't been impressed with any of the more exotic closures I've encountered. They are fine for inshore and near-shore and even some minor offshore sailing but I always worried about them. If we get back to serious cruising I sure would like something like what Beth and Evans put on Hawk. _THAT_ is a door. *grin*


To me, the downflooding potential is probably the scariest part of the apparent disregard for the force of water in modern designs. A downflooding event could sink a boat in short order, short out electronics, and trigger a catastrophic chain of events faster than almost anything else. Things like the huge sliding glass doors I see on big catamarans and tapered companionway boards that would very likely float free immediately should the cockpit flood are just two examples of scoffing at Neptune. I often see things that look like window shutters on companionway openings. I think a lot of these designs come from the drawing boards for powerboats which are never meant to actually go very far from shore.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

jzk said:


> The Sense 50 & 55 have clear boards that recess down with a push of a button. It is kind of cool as long as there is a very easy manual way to raise them if the electric fails.


I recently worked on a Beneteau 50 with that closure. It is kind of cool. It's pretty slow and I suspect would contribute to people leaving it open when it shouldn't be.



smurphny said:


> To me, the downflooding potential is probably the scariest part of the apparent disregard for the force of water in modern designs. A downflooding event could sink a boat in short order, short out electronics, and trigger a catastrophic chain of events faster than almost anything else. Things like the huge sliding glass doors I see on big catamarans and tapered companionway boards that would very likely float free immediately should the cockpit flood are just two examples of scoffing at Neptune. I often see things that look like window shutters on companionway openings. I think a lot of these designs come from the drawing boards for powerboats which are never meant to actually go very far from shore.


Let's be clear - depending on cockpit size and what "full" means filling it with water could be anywhere between one and three tonnes (real ones -- 2240 lbs/long ton, about the same as a metric ton). That sounds like a lot but even if it all ended up below it should not sink a well found boat.

So if a higher than usual wave floods the cockpit and it all ends up below (which ignores cockpit drains and slowing of downflooding by bridge decks and boards) the boat won't sink. It may take a while to get the water out and there will be a big mess to clean up. Clearly if something else goes wrong during recovery events could really escalate and _that_ could sink the boat. I agree with your concern about a chain of events. Loss of navigation, contamination of drinking water, even soaking spare clothes and sleeping spaces could be steps toward a catastrophe.

Sliding glass doors on big cats are pretty high and pretty far forward. I don't recall any causality reports stemming from a failure there.

Companionway boards should be in place and fastened offshore, certainly if seas are up.

Louvers are common on companionway boards to contribute ventilation below. While water from a flooding event can get through it would have to be severe (really flooding the cockpit) and still wouldn't be more than an inconvenience. Many people who sail offshore regularly have heavy weather boards that fit tighter and don't have louvers.

Things can get really stuffy below when really buttoned up for bad weather (dorades plugged and storm boards in). That has it's own unfortunate implications.

Let's remember that the offshore market is really small. That isn't what Beneteau is after. Sailing the Chesapeake, Long Island Sound, the Pacific Northwest, out to Catalina Island, the Med, the Skagerrak, the Solent, and all the other places most of us call our home cruising grounds people simply aren't exposed to the sorts of conditions and risks we keep talking about. Most of us won't even go to our boats when the weather is bad. Most of the rest will go to the boat and not leave the dock. What many call "offshore" like hopping from Ft. Lauderdale to the Bahamas isn't really. Even well offshore the people are generally the weakest link, not the boat.

It is up to designers and builders to prop up the people as much as possible. Downflooding isn't the problem - it's designing the companionway so it isn't hard to keep closed.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

good point, I think the emphasis on the human aspect of offshore sailing is a good one...especially when you point out the boat is more than often more up to offshore sailing than the sailor.

boats are pretty versatile and can deal with many scenarios and fare well at the end of the day...

sometimes though when the crap hits the fan thats when you see certain boats and designs shine...

however I would venture to say that its that 1% of boats that prove they are above and beyond.

anywhoo good points...

regarding downflooding, a question for the experts...how much water(tons) would be needed to flood and severely unbalance a beneteau 50?

ballpark?


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

SVAuspicious said:


> I recently worked on a Beneteau 50 with that closure. It is kind of cool. It's pretty slow and I suspect would contribute to people leaving it open when it shouldn't be.


Our boards are stowed in the cockpit lazzarette. One has to open the locker, which is substantial, hold it open with one hand, so it doesn't fall back down, and get the two boards with the other hand. Then close it so that it is not pinching any lines that may be in the cockpit. And, there might be a cushion on top to deal with. Its not horrible, but if the boat is rocking it is less than convenient. A system where the boards would be right there where they need to be would be cool.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I agree that downflooding from a following sea in itself should not sink a boat. Most of the water, even if filled to the gunwales of the cockpit, would drain off pretty quickly. I was quite surprised at how quickly cockpit drains shed water. I have never filled the cockpit to the gunwales but once filled it to the top of the seats from a breaking wave. Am thinking more about a knockdown scenario where an open companionway opening gets submerged. Even a quick knockdown could flood the boat quickly once the gunwale goes under. It would be good to see some actual tests concerning different downflooding situations.


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## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> Good catch... Among the numerous quibbles I have with the boats, I somehow overlooked that one
> 
> Again, I think that choice speaks to the Target Demographic for these boats. Folks looking for simplicity, ease of handling, and so on, more than performance and 'tweakability' ... I'd bet that during the entire 5 days of the Annapolis Boat Show, you could count on one hand the number of people who boarded a Sense, and inquired as to whether the addition of a traveler might be a factory option... I'm guessing that for every question asked, or comment made about the boat's sailhandling, there were about 100 posed or made about _THE JOYSTICK_...
> 
> ...


Excellent question, what is the target market and intended use of this boat?

Back to my dislike for the lack of a traveler and having the mainsheet on the arch overhead. In my limited time racing similar designed boats a potentially hazardous condition occurred on our first down wind leg in light winds a few years ago. All canvas was down so it was open like the photo above. Sailing towards a leeward mark we set to pass and continue down wind requiring a gibe. Winds were very light so we gibed without pulling in the mainsheet. Many yards of mainsheet came across the cockpit with near perfect loops formed between the arch and the boom at waist height. One loop got under a lady's chin and flung her hat and sunglasses overboard. Onboard there was easily 150+ years of sailboat racing experience and it caught everyone off guard. With the canvas up it's a non-issue. With midboom sheeting, no problem. With a traveler in the cockpit it's all right in front of you. Having experienced it once was all it took to not have any serious incidents since. In high winds an accidental gibe is hazardous to people in the cockpit, not just the boat itself.
Before anyone goes off on a tirade; I sail 1-5 year old Benes, Jens, and Hunters for a living year round. They all sail well. All current ones that I deal with have inmast furling. I have no bone to pick with modern boats. They are all compromises. One quirk on the overhead mainsheet boom block contraption can be dangerous if you've not been around them or have a brainfart and gibe without a preventer and no canvas up.

Typically getting to the end of the boom isn't that bad. The canvass is usually all zippers which I can unzip for access faster than I can type these two sentences. It seemed like on the 50.5 I was on you could stand in the pit and lean against the arch, or balance on the arch, and reach the end of the boom.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

christian.hess said:


> regarding downflooding, a question for the experts...how much water(tons) would be needed to flood and severely unbalance a beneteau 50?
> 
> ballpark?


A reasonable question. I don't have a reasonable answer.

There are two factors.

First is weight. How much water needs to come aboard for the boat to sit so low that additional water is shipped that drags the boat down that ships more water ... This leads to sinking.

Second is stability. What is the reduction in GM from free surface due to water sloshing around in the cockpit and below. This leads to rolling over and possibly ... sinking.

The calculations require lines and weight information I don't have and are specific to the boat. I've generated stability books for a number of ships and it is a LOT of work. I don't know how much detail goes into the recreational market by designers and builders.

You should be able to generate TPI (or PPI) numbers for your own boat and come up with a first order approximation. Extra credit for trim and heel allowances. *grin* This is real work and will take a good deal of time.



jzk said:


> Our boards are stowed in the cockpit lazzarette.


Mine too, at anchor. Day sailing the bottom board is in and fastened. Offshore they are both in except in the lightest air. Even then the locker is packed so the only thing that could possibly be in the way of the boards are life jackets. We have on board procedures for climbing in and out. YMMV.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

SVAuspicious said:


> If we get back to serious cruising I sure would like something like what Beth and Evans put on Hawk. _THAT_ is a door. *grin*


Jebus, that's a door! It looks like part of a radiation containment chamber.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I tested my plastic folkboat cockpit this way*** sorry I dont have the numbers***

(when I was prepping for some solo sailing that never came to fruition on that boat unfortunately.)

I intentionally flooded the boat ...I had just bought a huge whale gusher pump to mount on the bridgedeck...what happened on this particular boat(it had big straight down drains, not corssed over which is a design flaw) in the cockipt, was that you could fill it till a point where the waterline equalized(low freeboard boat) and then very quickly I saw with complete awe and amazement, the drains sucking up seawater into the cockpit!

I know this is common knowledge my point is the folkboat is a well respected and competent boat.

I had to shut the drains off quickly...and start bailing out water the old way till the boat waterline leveled out

small boat not a lot of reserve buoyancy, relatively long and midships cockpit, etc...point being TESTS are the only way to find out

I would like to know what these flat sterned wide boats have in the way of reserve buoyancy or abiity to suffer water intrusion(especially in the cabin) from breaking waves and what is the breaking point stabilty wise for said boats

is it much more than an equal length "standard" stern boat or is it a drastic amount?


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

That is an interesting procedure, but I must say that you are the first person that I have ever heard of that actually goes that far. Few people are going to realistically do something like that. So that is where convenience factor would come into play. For example, if they recessed down like the Sense ones do, but I could just pull them up and a latch would press in below them, that would be fantastic. Then lowering them could be as simple as pressing the latch, and dropping them down.

Our boards stow in a manner that nothing can be in the way of them.



SVAuspicious said:


> Mine too, at anchor. Day sailing the bottom board is in and fastened. Offshore they are both in except in the lightest air. Even then the locker is packed so the only thing that could possibly be in the way of the boards are life jackets. We have on board procedures for climbing in and out. YMMV.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I know thats something 99 percent of people never would do...but consider I was eyeing solo transpac dreams among other things with said boat...if you never know and just guess or play wuth numbers thats fine...however you know how the saying goes

"IN THE REAL WORLD"....etc...


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

christian.hess said:


> small boat not a lot of reserve buoyancy, relatively long and midships cockpit, etc...point being TESTS are the only way to find out


Actually you can calculate that. It might take a bit of time but you won't get wet and you'll sweat less.



jzk said:


> That is an interesting procedure, but I must say that you are the first person that I have ever heard of that actually goes that far.


Really? Why would anyone offshore not have the boards in?

Our onboard procedure is that the person on watch in the cockpit pulls the top board (we only have two) when someone below pulls the slide back. If food is to be handed up, put the top board between the binnacle and side of the cockpit so it doesn't interfere with the wheel. Stepping over the lower board isn't hard. In extremis, the person below pulls the top board and sticks it under the companionway ladder. None of this hard and isn't any more time consuming than buckling one's seatbelt in a car.

Daysails in good weather the boards are in the cockpit locker but come out and are installed at the first sign of the summer thunderstorms common afternoons in my cruising grounds.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have bridge deck , boards and doors. Doors only nice days . Boards are glass and heavy. Still wil put in retaining system in a month or two to meet offshore race rules even though we don't race. Would suggest this especially if you have wooden boards. 
Interesting story- when I bought my prior psc34 there was a big plugged hole in the top duck board. The boat came with a sliding pin to close the companionway. In a seaway it slid shut. He was locked out his boat with all hatches closed. Had to drill hole to wiggle pin open. I'll use shock cord with jam cleat on inside and outside base of opening. Great to learn from some one else's mistake for a change


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