# Here we go! Advice please...



## VAUGHN3 (Jul 24, 2019)

Hello everyone! I'm new to the sailing community and getting ready to purchase my first sailboat. I'm looking at a 26' Rawson built in 1965. Purchase price is $2,000.00 Looks to be in decent shape. Owner says its ready to sail and comes with an extra sail. I figure for 2K it's a small risk. Was going to have a surveyor still take a look. Any thoughts, opinions, advice here would be much appreciated. Is this a decent price, is it a decent boat? The Rawson 30 seems to have a good reputation. I live on the Puget Sound and am wanting to explore these waterways and have weekend trips. Thanks in advance for your time! Cheers!


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

Why this boat? For one it is 50+ years old. I am sure you could find something "newer" that would fit your needs out there. Just because it's from the 60's or 70's doesn't mean its a "classic" and a good thing. Full keel so it won't point, heavy so it will be slow, even for a sailboat. People from the area could probably give you more advice on better boats.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

That is a lot of boat for 2k. Yes, they are slow, but when learning that is a good thing.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

The R-30 is considered a strong cruiser. I would not be hesitant about 26. Of course the survey will tell you much more!
Fair winds.

In that size range, a fiberglass T-Bird would be a wonderful pocket cruiser, too.


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## VAUGHN3 (Jul 24, 2019)

Thank you for the reply. So you're saying the 26' Rawson is something that you would consider as a decent boat?


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## Degas (Nov 15, 2010)

Welcome!

Are you already an experienced boater? Then I agree that $2000 is a small risk. The boat's manufactuer doesn't matter as long as she's seaworthy. Don't be afraid to make mistakes (you will anyway). Get a feel for the type of sailing you like. Learn how to maintain and repair a sailboat. By then you'll feel the itch to scale down, trade up, or even give up. 

Are you new to boating? Then before spending $2K, get some proper training. Before even looking at a sailboat I took the basic boating course from Canadian Power Squadron. Best $100 (at the time) on a boat that I ever spent. 

Either way, have fun. I hope this helps.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

At that price, I might take some risks. A survey is going to cost you a good percentage of the purchase price.

So, if you have a friend who knows boats and as owned a couple of sailboats, bring that person down to look at it. If possible, take it for a sail with the owner and your friend. My biggest concern at this price and age that the cost to junk it if it's not fixable for short money, may exceed the purchase price. 

But that said, I wouldn't discourage you. Learning on a keel boat that size is an ideal, low cost way to get yourself hooked on this stuff. Then you'll be like the rest of us .

Good luck!


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

cb32863 said:


> Full keel so it won't point, heavy so it will be slow, even for a sailboat.


If this is the boat (and it looks like it is):
RAWSON 26









It's a fin keel, not a full. And with a sail area / displacement of 18.48 it won't be that crazy slow.

On the other hand, if I learned anything from my first boat it's that I'd rather spend a little more up front to get a newer, better condition boat, rather than "save" money by getting a boat that needs a lot of projects.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Can you afford to pay more? If not that might be a good boat for the $2000 investment. If that boat is in a slip can you afford the slip fees and maybe other ongoing costs? A boat with a trailer can allow you to avoid winter slip fees.

I have found boats built in 1960s vs. ones designed in the 70s to be very different. Boats built in the 70s often perform better and use the space better, although there is only so much you can squeeze into a 22 foot boat.

If you an afford more I would consider investing more.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Just starting out, i would think catalina 22.
Weekend trips..check.
Good factory support with parts and great owner forums...check
Easy ish to sell later when moving up or on...check
Hold value if maintained...check
Forgiving and easy to learn...check


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

RegisteredUser said:


> Just starting out, i would think catalina 22.
> Weekend trips..check.
> Good factory support with parts and great owner forums...check
> Easy ish to sell later when moving up or on...check
> ...


I mean, well yeah.

Obviously I agree with this


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

shussssss! guys, get him hooked first, then we can get him the ideal boat.

All we have to do is make sure this first one is not a major *****.

Seriously, do buy a boat and go sailing. Otherwise the rest of us crazies are going to be the last people on earth that do this thing .

Our first was a Pearson 22, real old when we did it. It was great. One of my favorite boats ever.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

capecodda said:


> shussssss! guys, get him hooked first, then we can get him the ideal boat.
> 
> All we have to do is make sure this first one is not a major *****.
> 
> ...


I have always liked the (reasonably nice) days and nights spent at sea. Sailing a small boat (our first was a Ranger 20) is a great way to build enthusiasm.
After a while, you may appreciate the wisdom in this quote:

"If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea. "
Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

Seems like a decent boat for that price. A lot of the equity in the boat is actually in that outboard, so if it's in good condition, you risk is further reduced. 

The interior seems to be pretty open so it will be difficult for major problems to hide. Deal breakers for me on this boat would be:
1. Outboard doesn't run.
2. Damage or wear related to the keel; corroded bolts (is it a bolt on?), evidence of hard grounding.
3. Issues with the standing rigging; cracked or worn chainplates, cracked or severely corroded hardware, particularly the terminals. You can DIY standing rigging but it's a big job if you're new to it, and it's not cheap. (Also look to see if water intrusion has degraded the structual bulkhead that the chainplates attach to. Not necessarily a deal breaker, but also a big project.)
4. If they're not removing the dead guy pictured in the V berth.


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

Minnesail said:


> If this is the boat (and it looks like it is):
> RAWSON 26
> 
> 
> ...


Huh, your Google-Fu is returning different than mine. When I looked it up it was a full keel thing. Maybe you are right but, it is from 1965.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

cb32863 said:


> Huh, your Google-Fu is returning different than mine. When I looked it up it was a full keel thing. Maybe you are right but, it is from 1965.


Reportedly, this design was in response to the popularity of the 1958 T-Bird (plywood) design. So no coincidence that there is a resemblance. Interesting that the T-Bird's are still racing one design in the Seattle area. Fast little pocket cruisers, they are.


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## VAUGHN3 (Jul 24, 2019)

PhilCarlson said:


> Seems like a decent boat for that price. A lot of the equity in the boat is actually in that outboard, so if it's in good condition, you risk is further reduced.
> 
> The interior seems to be pretty open so it will be difficult for major problems to hide. Deal breakers for me on this boat would be:
> 1. Outboard doesn't run.
> ...


Thanks Phil! I think the guy comes with the boat. He's the first mate.


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## VAUGHN3 (Jul 24, 2019)

Guys! I want to thank everyone for the replies, really means a lot that you take the time to give input. I've considered things and an option to spend a little more brought me to this. A 1977 Grampian 28. I can find very little information on this boat. Any input on this particular builder would be much appreciated!


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

VAUGHN3 said:


> Thanks Phil! I think the guy comes with the boat. He's the first mate.


Geologists often include a quarter or a rockhammer in a photo to show scale.

I'm assuming the corpse draped in the V is to show the scale of the boat.


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

That looks like a well cared for boat, much better suited to your intended purpose.

Some considerations:
-Those PVC covers on the standing rig. Be sure to look underneath them to assess the condition of the hardware. They're great for protecting you from the rigging, but also tend to hide problems. If you buy this boat, remove them. 
-Inspect the bulkheads at the chainplates for signs of water intrusion. Damage to the plywood bulkhead from water intrusion over time will lead to failure that you will notice when the rig is loaded, which is a bad scenario.
-Condition of the motor: Originally launched with volvo engines. Volvos are good engines, but maintenance intensive and parts tend to be more expensive than other brands. 
-If it's a fin keel, inspect the keel bolts. (it looks like there were several keel configurations.)

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/grampian-28

https://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/4264-76-grampian-28-a.html

https://www.grampianowners.com/G28/g28.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grampian_28


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

PhilCarlson said:


> -Those PVC covers on the standing rig. Be sure to look underneath them to assess the condition of the hardware. They're great for protecting you from the rigging, but also tend to hide problems. If you buy this boat, remove them.


I have PVC covers on my shrouds to protect my sails, especially my nylon drifter. They make low-wind tacks a lot easier and a lot less snag-prone.

But yes, lift them up and check the rigging.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Maybe you could create a checklist of the features that you would like to have and use that check list to filter yoyr search.

Personally if I am working with a set budget, I would generally prefer to go with a smaller/newer boat in better condition vs a bigger older boat in worse condition.

I know if I had a $2000 budget, I would be looking for something quite a bit smaller. The Catalina 22 advice earlier makes sense to me for that reason. Unless there is a specific reason you are looking in the 26-30 ft range.


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## VAUGHN3 (Jul 24, 2019)

Minnesail said:


> Geologists often include a quarter or a rockhammer in a photo to show scale.
> 
> I'm assuming the corpse draped in the V is to show the scale of the boat.


Ya, it doesn't look like you could quite lay out there. I'm 6 foot. Might be a little cramped.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

VAUGHN3 said:


> Guys! I want to thank everyone for the replies, really means a lot that you take the time to give input. I've considered things and an option to spend a little more brought me to this. A 1977 Grampian 28. I can find very little information on this boat. Any input on this particular builder would be much appreciated!


I think you are heading in the right direction. Nothing wrong with a 22-foot boat if that is all you can afford, that is how I started. At 28 feet you will have more than twice the space and maybe near standing room, a head maybe even an enclosed head. Everything will cost more but you can do more with the boat also, as far as cruising in comfort.

Grampians are a well respected Canadian made boat.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

As you are looking at these options, I wouldn't get too hung up on a make or model. IMHO condition is more important.

At this point, you want a boat you can sail right away without a lot of work. One of the best ways to know if this is possible, is if it is sailing now. So I would buy a boat that is in commission, in the water and used frequently by a knowledgeable owner. Then you can learn to fix it one thing at a time when it breaks....woops, did I say things break? 

When we bought the Pearson 22 (too many years ago to acknowledge date), we didn't have a clue. We purchased it from some friends that used it a lot. The took us sailing on it before we bought it. They even answered our questions after we owned it. It had a little outboard (that worked), sails that worked, it was water tight, even had a small head that worked. 

I would take this approach, sail it for a few years, then consider what you really want, which might change.


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## CrispyCringle (Jul 30, 2017)

Some number to plan with: Make sure the motor works or prepare to spend, especially if you arent handy with motors. Sails are most likely blown out. Expect about 1K for each. New quality lines, about $100 each. If in salt water especially, check the bottom for growth and age of bottom paint. Look for rust and popped strands on the steel shrouds. Couple of hundred to replace each pair (at least).


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## VAUGHN3 (Jul 24, 2019)

PhilCarlson said:


> That looks like a well cared for boat, much better suited to your intended purpose.
> 
> Some considerations:
> -Those PVC covers on the standing rig. Be sure to look underneath them to assess the condition of the hardware. They're great for protecting you from the rigging, but also tend to hide problems. If you buy this boat, remove them.
> ...


Thank you Phil! Appreciate the feedback!


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## VAUGHN3 (Jul 24, 2019)

Okay my friends. So much great advice. I think I found something that I'm really excited about. It's ready to sail, great price but also needs a little love which I want to really put that work into bringing her back to life. I've seen these boats beautifully refinished and have heard really good things about them. It's a 1969 Cal 25. Thoughts? Also what would you say a fair price would be on this boat? I'm offering $2500.00. He is asking 3K.


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

CAL 25 is a solid boat. First one I looked at when I started shopping in 2013 but didn't make an offer fast enough. Asking price is in line with the Tampa FL market, not sure where you are.

Same points as previously mentioned. Also;
-Seller says ready to sail. Does he sail it regularly? If not, it might not be. Maybe offer contingent on a sea trial.
-Does it have a running outboard? 
-Condition of the sails? You'd be looking in the neighborhood of $2500-3k to replace them new. 
-Bottom paint; when was it last done, and is it regularly cleaned? (less important if it's in fresh water)


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## VAUGHN3 (Jul 24, 2019)

PhilCarlson said:


> CAL 25 is a solid boat. First one I looked at when I started shopping in 2013 but didn't make an offer fast enough. Asking price is in line with the Tampa FL market, not sure where you are.
> 
> Same points as previously mentioned. Also;
> -Seller says ready to sail. Does he sail it regularly? If not, it might not be. Maybe offer contingent on a sea trial.
> ...


Hi Phil, apparently it has a new 4 stroke 9hp outboard, new battery and new hummingbird GPS / Depth finder. Not sure the conditions of the sails or the bottom paint. I'm meeting with the owner today to take a look and talk to him about this. Thanks again Phil!


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

Unless a dead squirrel falls out of the sails or the boat looks nothing like the pictures, I think you’re on to something. Be ready to decide and be ready to close, really good deals don’t last.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

VAUGHN3 said:


> Okay my friends. So much great advice. I think I found something that I'm really excited about. It's ready to sail, great price but also needs a little love which I want to really put that work into bringing her back to life. I've seen these boats beautifully refinished and have heard really good things about them. It's a 1969 Cal 25. Thoughts? Also what would you say a fair price would be on this boat? I'm offering $2500.00. He is asking 3K.


Those vintage "flat top" Cal's will really sail well, i.e. that design will reward your ever-increasing skill level with faster sailing. Good design, even by "modern standards". Probably will need sails, but there are decent discount dacron sail sellers around. (Friend of mine has been a dealer for Lee Sails for over 20 years and he warranties his sails and they are a good deal for the buck.)

As with any boat over 10 or 15 years old, check the transom carefully for core rot. Same for deck.

Big enough interior for modest cruising and yet small enough to day sail solo.


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## VAUGHN3 (Jul 24, 2019)

PhilCarlson said:


> Unless a dead squirrel falls out of the sails or the boat looks nothing like the pictures, I think you're on to something. Be ready to decide and be ready to close, really good deals don't last.


I bought it Phil. The brand new 9hp 4 stroke mercury outboard alone is around 2k from what I've seen online. Definitely needs a new gel coat. Everything felt solid. Settled on a deal at $2750.00. He originally wanted 4500.00 then re-listed for 3k. I feel like I got a good deal here and am excited to get this thing fixed up. My big thing is taking this baby out of the water and having it repainted bottom to top. Wonder what I'm getting myself into with that cost? Anyway. Thanks for all your input Phil. Had to jump on this one. Cal seems to have a good reputation as well.


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## VAUGHN3 (Jul 24, 2019)

PhilCarlson said:


> Unless a dead squirrel falls out of the sails or the boat looks nothing like the pictures, I think you're on to something. Be ready to decide and be ready to close, really good deals don't last.


...And no dead squirrel!


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Good luck with it. 

I like the way Cal's sail....

Before you think about gel coat get a buffer, compound, wax and see what happens. 

You have joined us crazies! Go sailing!


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## VAUGHN3 (Jul 24, 2019)

CrispyCringle said:


> Some number to plan with: Make sure the motor works or prepare to spend, especially if you arent handy with motors. Sails are most likely blown out. Expect about 1K for each. New quality lines, about $100 each. If in salt water especially, check the bottom for growth and age of bottom paint. Look for rust and popped strands on the steel shrouds. Couple of hundred to replace each pair (at least).


Motor wasn't working. Clogged fuel line apparently.


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## VAUGHN3 (Jul 24, 2019)

capecodda said:


> Good luck with it.
> 
> I like the way Cal's sail....
> 
> ...


Almost joined the club! Ended up not buying last minute. Motor stopped working. Told the owner to get back to me when he has the motor working. Now looking at an 1985 San Juan 7.7 and a 1977 28' Grampian....What do you think? Any opinions on either of these?


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## VAUGHN3 (Jul 24, 2019)

Hey guys! Looking at a Grampian 28' (1977) and a San Juan 7.7 (1985)... Any thoughts or opinions on either of these boats. Appreciate it guys!


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

VAUGHN3 said:


> Almost joined the club! Ended up not buying last minute. Motor stopped working.


Sorry to hear that about the motor. Hope that shakes out for you, even with getting the motor serviced, that still sounds like a good deal. Definately a solid boat.


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## VAUGHN3 (Jul 24, 2019)

PhilCarlson said:


> Sorry to hear that about the motor. Hope that shakes out for you, even with getting the motor serviced, that still sounds like a good deal. Definately a solid boat.


Hey Phil. Found a San Juan 24 (1975). She's in great shape. Do you know anything about these boats personally?


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

VAUGHN3 said:


> Hey Phil. Found a San Juan 24 (1975). She's in great shape. Do you know anything about these boats personally?


Not a thing personally. Found this though:

https://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/3489-san-juan-24-a.html


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## danvon (Dec 10, 2012)

RegisteredUser said:


> Just starting out, i would think catalina 22.
> Weekend trips..check.
> Good factory support with parts and great owner forums...check
> Easy ish to sell later when moving up or on...check
> ...


All good points. Here's one on Vashon:

https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/d/burton-22-catalina-sail-boat-fixed-keel/6926356767.html

Thunderbirds are really fun boats too - there are a lot around here. Racing fleet at Leschi.

and i'd strongly recommend finding a boat that the previous owner has taken good care of or already fixed, rather than saving $$ on a "fixer". Almost anything you do is going to cost much more than it would add to the value of the boat.


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