# Contemplating a drive line overhaul



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

My '87 O'day 35 has been hauled for the season. When I launched her, for the first time, this spring, I knew that the cutlass bearing was getting old. Toward the end of the sailing season I noticed that the engine vibrations were getting scary, and I believe that I had some knocking of the prop shaft on the strut.

When she was originally launched, she was equipped with a Universal M25 diesel, a transmission (that was replaced with a new HBW-50 in 2004), a 4" coupling, a 1" bronze prop shaft, a conventional stuffing box, a strut, and a Michigan 16" prop.

Here is a pic from this past spring:
*Starting at the transmission*​









*The stuffing box*​









*The whole package*​









*The shaft*​









*The strut*​









*And the prop*​









You can see that there ain't no way that I am going to get the coupling off that shaft and have either one of them survive, so I guess that I am on the hook for a new coupling and shaft.

FIRST QUESTION: Can you still find a 1" Bronze shaft anywhere?

I've googled around a bit, and come to the conclusion that you cannot. Therefore I am looking at replacing the bronze shaft with a stainless steel shaft. One vendor recommends something called "Aqualoy-22" for it's corrosion resistance (~$230). - I am not sure of the length, but I believe that it is 49".

That coupling IS toast. I am therefore looking at replacing it. My option is a regular coupling for ~$50 + ~$80 to machine the shaft, or a Vetus Bullflex 2 coupling, which will NOT require machining the shaft. I am told that this will compensate for a shaft that is up to 2º out of alignment, it will also help reduce engine vibration, and it will isolate the prop shaft from the bonding system, so I will not have to worry about galvanic corrosion from stray current in the marina. (I will still need a Nylon bore reducer to isolate the propeller from the shaft, however.)

SECOND QUESTION: Does anyone out there have experience with the Bullflex coupling? Is it really WORTH ~$450?!?!?

Then there is that ancient stuffing box... I have no idea how old it is, although I did repack it (successfully!) this spring. I fear that the hose will let go when am I least ready for it, and I'll find my boat at the bottom of the harbor. I am considering replacing it with a PSS Shaft seal.

THIRD QUESTION: Is the PSS Seal really worth ~$250, or should I continue to use the old stuffing box (this is getting expensive!).

Finally, before I hauled the boat, I was prompted to replace the zincs on the prop shaft and scrape the prop because the engine was vibrating a LOT. I watched in horror as the engine seemed to vibrate over ¼" under load. Also, while I believe that the motor mounts were new in '04, at least one of them looks questionable:









I have read elsewhere that the Vetus K75 mounts are a good fit for this engine. I would not want to have mismatched engine mounts, so I am looking at 4 Vetus K75 engine mounts.

FOURTH QUESTION: Does anyone have any experience, or advice, with these?

The last part (the part I NEED) is a Johnson Duramax cutlass bearing for ~$35...

All told, after shopping around, the total comes to about $1,200 in parts alone.

You may notice in the above picture that the oil pan looks questionable too. I just purchased a used Kubota pan for $25 on ebay (PN: 15371-01614), which, with some drilling, a gasket and some screws, will replace the Universal Pan that retails for $400. Heck, I may even be able to clean up the existing pan, but would prefer to have a backup - just in case.

Feedback welcome!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

It would be interesting to compare the photo of the shaft in the strut to one taken today... 

btw... looks like you had Mainesail change out that through-hull for you!! Nice job!


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Faster said:


> It would be interesting to compare the photo of the shaft in the strut to one taken today...
> 
> btw... looks like you had Mainesail change out that through-hull for you!! Nice job!


The shaft in the strut would look very different. Shortly before she launched, I painted the whole underwater works with transducer paint. I believe that it helped, because I could only use the boat on weekends over the summer, and I only had to have the prop scraped in October.

Here is a pic;









And another;









MS didn't do the work on the through hull, but he did show me how.

Thank you!


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Hey Faster,

If you liked that through hull, you'll love this one for the sink drain;
*Before:*​








It had a piece of painted marine ply for a backing plate, and gobs of 2 different color sealants on the outside flange. No big surprise that it rocked slightly. I was using those old calipers to measure the OD for the new base.

*After:*​








Set on a G10 backing plate with black 4200 as sealant. I also used pipe dope with teflon to seal the tailpiece threads. I feel that I got the epoxy fillet just right on this one.

No comments on my proposed hardware upgrades (1" Bronze prop shaft, Vetus Bullflex Coupling experience, PSS Shaft seal, Vetus K75 Engine mounts) in the OP yet?

Right now, I am leaning away from the Bronze shaft because the PSS seal is stainless, and the seal and the shaft would be in direct contact. I believe that a stainless prop shaft is OK because there is a Nylon reducing bushing between the bronze prop and the shaft, and a rubber cutlass bearing between the shaft and the bronze strut. Make sense?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Looks just like my boat Eh! The shaft on mine is stainless but the prop is bronze so I wonder bout that. I have the PSS seal and love it  When we did the cutless bearing We used a hack saw blade then the sawzall to cut it long ways inside. Then using a round sharp pointed awl pried it inward enough that it could be pulled out. Only after were we able to get the set screws out. The hub was real PITA, but after more then a few hours of using longer bolts a piece of steel with a socket between it and the shaft end, and lots of PB blaster it did slowly come off. There wasn't room for a puller. The Prop was really hard to get off the shaft! Finally a friend had a super strong and large "snap on" 3 jaw puller that worked with a the shock from a hammer. 

I would suggest getting the prop and shaft balanced and trued. maybe even the new shaft, should you get one. Mine has a vibration at a higher rpm but not enough to be scary. 
Gotta love the new sea valves! 

ps; Yes, the rudder needs to be dropped


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

eherlihy said:


> You can see that there ain't no way that I am going to get the coupling off that shaft and have either one of them survive, so I guess that I am on the hook for a new coupling and shaft.


With a bronze shaft use a sawzall with 14TPI metal blade. You will cut through it in under 2 minutes with no messy dust.



eherlihy said:


> FIRST QUESTION: Can you still find a 1" Bronze shaft anywhere?


First answer no, and a question, why? The AQ 22 shafts are far better in nearly all regards especially with newer graphite impregnated packings, which bronze shafts REALLY dislike. The term "bronze" is a misnomer anyway. They are basically up to 40% zinc and are more of a manganese bronze than a true marine bronze. They were called Tobin bronze but it has a very high zinc content. No one is making bronze shafts anymore and if anyone tries to sell you one it is not shafting bronze but rather rod stock...



eherlihy said:


> I've googled around a bit, and come to the conclusion that you cannot. Therefore I am looking at replacing the bronze shaft with a stainless steel shaft. One vendor recommends something called "Aqualoy-22" for it's corrosion resistance (~$230). - I am not sure of the length, but I believe that it is 49".


Try to avoid buying shafting on-line. You have two EXCELLENT shafting shops in your area Roses in Glocester and New England Propeller/Ron Peck. The on-line shafting work I have seen has been JUNK and not to industry spec. Sloppy coupling fits, no spooning of the keyway, no shaft spotting, runout of more than what is acceptable, incorrect lengths etc. etc.. You may get lucky but why bother with two excellent shops so close by who will 100% stand behind their work.



eherlihy said:


> That coupling IS toast. I am therefore looking at replacing it. My option is a regular coupling for ~$50 + ~$80 to machine the shaft, or a Vetus Bullflex 2 coupling, which will NOT require machining the shaft. I am told that this will compensate for a shaft that is up to 2º out of alignment, it will also help reduce engine vibration, and it will isolate the prop shaft from the bonding system, so I will not have to worry about galvanic corrosion from stray current in the marina. (I will still need a Nylon bore reducer to isolate the propeller from the shaft, however.)


If your engine is your earth ground it is required under ABYC P-06 to jump across any isolating shaft spacer or coupling to keep this earth potential. On top of that your engine WILL NOT be isolated as you are still connected to earth via the cooling system intake. Stick with a regular split coupling of go with the Vetus but do not try and isolate it.



eherlihy said:


> SECOND QUESTION: Does anyone out there have experience with the Bullflex coupling? Is it really WORTH ~$450?!?!?


Yes I do and no I don't feel it is worth anywhere near what they sell for. You can buy a Buck Algonquin split coupling for about $65.00 and a good shafting shop will fit and face it anyway in the price of the shaft and coupling. You then align the boat and away you go.



eherlihy said:


> Then there is that ancient stuffing box... I have no idea how old it is, although I did repack it (successfully!) this spring. I fear that the hose will let go when am I least ready for it, and I'll find my boat at the bottom of the harbor. I am considering replacing it with a PSS Shaft seal.


When you get the shaft out take it to your bench grinder with a brass wheel in it and clean it. The thing will clean up as good as new. It is 85-5-5-5 bronze and will likely outlast you and the boat. A new hose is about $8.00. That is a Spartan stuffing box and they are one of the best built. You can buy the wrenches for it directly from Spartan Bronze.



eherlihy said:


> THIRD QUESTION: Is the PSS Seal really worth ~$250, or should I continue to use the old stuffing box (this is getting expensive!).


If you had a v-drive I might say yes but with the new packings you are fine sticking with what you have and $8.00 for a new 6 ply Buck Algonquin stuffing box hose.



eherlihy said:


> Finally, before I hauled the boat, I was prompted to replace the zincs on the prop shaft and scrape the prop because the engine was vibrating a LOT. I watched in horror as the engine seemed to vibrate over ¼" under load. Also, while I believe that the motor mounts were new in '04, at least one of them looks questionable:


I have never been a fan of the Bushings Inc. mounts and I would never have them on my own boat.. The factory Westerbeke/Universal mounts are far quieter, considerably better built and will transmit a LOT LESS noise and vibration to your hull. The drawback is the hole centers are longer on the factory mounts. Motors DO MOVE under load that is why they are not hard bolted.



eherlihy said:


> I have read elsewhere that the Vetus K75 mounts are a good fit for this engine. I would not want to have mismatched engine mounts, so I am looking at 4 Vetus K75 engine mounts.


I have worked on boats with the K-75's and while slightly better than the Bushing's Inc. mounts I still would choose the factory mount every time.



eherlihy said:


> FOURTH QUESTION: Does anyone have any experience, or advice, with these?


If the hole centers are the same try them PYI's mounts are also decent and I like them better than the K-75 but still not as good as factory Westerbeke.



eherlihy said:


> The last part (the part I NEED) is a Johnson Duramax cutlass bearing for ~$35...
> 
> All told, after shopping around, the total comes to about $1,200 in parts alone.


Go with a local shafting shop, which will be more money, but lose the PSS, Bull Flex and other unnecessary items and you'll be good.



eherlihy said:


> You may notice in the above picture that the oil pan looks questionable too. I just purchased a used Kubota pan for $25 on ebay (PN: 15371-01614), which, with some drilling, a gasket and some screws, will replace the Universal Pan that retails for $400. Heck, I may even be able to clean up the existing pan, but would prefer to have a backup - just in case.
> 
> Feedback welcome!


I've seen pans a LOT worse. Once put my finger through one...

Dezincification like this, on bronze shafts, is not unusual. I removed this shaft last Monday and found his shaft was literally FLAKING off under the packing. No wonder it leaked.. It was also dezincified under the prop and cutlass.. While it did last about 25 years this shaft has passed by "safe for use" a number of years ago...










The dezincification was not just on the "surface"... (cut with a sawzall BTW)









It also extended down the shaft as well.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Awesome - thank you Denise and MS.

Denise, I think that I can squeak by the rudder (I hope so!). My boat is a 35, and I believe that I have more room between the shaft log and the rudder.

I just got off the phone with New England Propeller. They believe that the total for the shaft & work will be in the $600 range, and probably $70 for a bearing.

I know that the Bullflex coupling only accommodates a 2º shaft misalignment MAX. You've convinced me to forgo it.

The OEM Mounts are $165 each!!! 








What are they; impregnated with Gold?

The mount that you see (rusted) is a Dual-Flex 206;









What I don't like about either of these is that the top acts like a cup and retains any water that comes into it, thus the corrosion.

The Vetus mounts look like this;









and should shed any liquid that splashes on them..


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I've bought stuff from these guys several times - shaft, bearings, zincs, etc. Happy with their service and products.

Boat Propellers, Inboard Propellers, Cutlass Bearings, Zinc Anodes, Boat Shafts, Shaft Seals and so much more...


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Check Bushing Inc for your isolators/mounts...and go2marine for pricing, I found them for much less than what I saw at Torrensens


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

eherlihy said:


> Awesome - thank you Denise and MS.
> 
> Denise, I think that I can squeak by the rudder (I hope so!). My boat is a 35, and I believe that I have more room between the shaft log and the rudder.
> 
> ...


The red colored mount is the OEM style I am referring to not the Bushing's Inc. mounts. Universal used to use Bushing's Inc mounts but they really are a poor mount.

If you want to replace the Bushings Inc. type mounts DO NOT buy them from the dealer they can be had for a lot less and much closer to what they might be worth.

The new Universals ship with the red style mounts though they now have a solid cap cover. They are an excellent design if not inexpensive..

The red mount on the right was replaced at 2800 hours and was still working fine. The two failed Bushings Inc. mounts at 640 hours....


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Good luck getting past the Rudder Eh! But I have to say the most difficult part of the job on my boat was digging the whole in the ground for the post to clear the bottom LOL The quadrant through bolt is the only bolt that actually keeps the whole thing up in the tube.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> Denise, I think that I can squeak by the rudder (I hope so!). My boat is a 35, and I believe that I have more room between the shaft log and the rudder.


It ain't pretty, but the prop shaft is OUT.

I tried to use a gear puller, but no dice. The prop shaft was too long for the gear puller. 
So, I cut ½" of the threads off the shaft. Still too long,  so I cut another ½".

STILL too long :hothead, so I cut them flush with the rear of the prop.:gunner

I cranked on the gear puller as much as I dared, but the prop wouldn't budge. The prop and the shaft were solidly fused. At this point I was committed to a new shaft anyway, so I cut the shaft forward of the cutlass bearing, and slid it out. Then I went into the engine compartment, and cut 2/3 of the way through the shaft, and the battery in my portable sawzall died. 

I finished up with a hack saw. Has anyone ever told you how soft 1" of brass is? If so, they're lying. It took me close to 30 min to cut the other third... I now have 6 pieces of shaft.

Unfortunately Denise is right, the rudder will have to drop to replace the shaft.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

It's dirty,greasy, and you need to contort yourself into some pretty undignified positions but it's not really difficult, This will also give you a chance to really work on the rudder too. I want to take mine home this winter and save it before it needs saving LOL


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## ArcherBowman (Jul 1, 2009)

In an odd, twisted way, I envy you yankees. Here in the southlands, the sailing season never actually ends. Any time I take an opportunity to work on the boat, it means I'm missing an opportunity to be on the water.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

deniseO30 said:


> It's dirty,greasy, and you need to contort yourself into some pretty undignified positions but it's not really difficult, This will also give you a chance to really work on the rudder too. I want to take mine home this winter and save it before it needs saving LOL


Denise, you want to take your RUDDER home?

Have you ever considered a pet?


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Done this job several time over the last 25 years. Needed to drop the rudder on my previous boat to get the shaft out. As Denise says, definitely the hardest part of the job, especially in a boatyard where the ground is compacted from years of boat storage and LOTS of rocks. Luckily CAL got clever in the design of my current boat (33-2) and offset the shaftline just enough to slide past the rudder. 

The length of the shaft is critical, so don't lose any of the pieces!


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## LakeSuperiorGeezer (Oct 8, 2010)

Here is a source for bronze:
Atlas Metal Sales
Here are the various specs for Silicon Bronze. 96% CU, 3% SI . Try 
commercail spec SAE CA655. There are other types of silicon bronze with 
Zinc so be careful if you have galvanic problems. This material is great 
for low velocity seawater. With stainless steel, there is the real problem of severe pit corrosion because the cutless bearing prevents oxygen from getting to the stainless to form the corrosion resistance from chromium dioxide. Without oxygen stainless has the resistance of ordinary steel to corrosion. Also, keel bolts should not be stainless for the same reason. Silicon bronze bolts must be used. Even galvanized is better than stainless bolts for bolting on a keel.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

*O'day 35 shaft (getting the shaft?) work*

Hey,

I went through most of what you are going through in the winter of 2009 / spring 2010. The stuffing box hose on my boat was original, and UGLY. Also, the cutless bearing was worn, so it was time to fix everything.

As you know, you do need to remove the rudder. That can be a real PITA. Digging the hole is work, but not terrible (at least for me it wasn't), but you need to dig a DEEP hole. There are a few bolts that hold the quadrant together, but you must MUST remove the long bolt that goes through the quadrant and rudder post. On my boat, that bolt would not come out at all. I had to use a small sledgehammer to drive it out, and of course it got destroyed. Do take the time to bring the rudder home and let it really dry out.

Back to the boat: I tried to remove the coupling bolts and then gave up. I ended up paying the yard guys to do the work. They just cut everything off with a saw and replaced with new. For about $1000 I got:

New SS prop shaft
3 blade prop reconditioned
new cutless bearing
new stuffing box hose (box was fine)
all installed nicely with new hardware

IMHO that was a bargain. I did put the rudder back on and that was easier than taking it out.

Last point - my boat came with a driversaver, which worked fine and was reused.

Good luck,
Barry


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Yes take the rudder home drill it full of holes and bag it, and connect it to a vac pump and really dry out the insides. then give a full wrap of cloth and resin.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

LakeSuperiorGeezer said:


> Here is a source for bronze:
> Atlas Metal Sales
> Here are the various specs for Silicon Bronze. 96% CU, 3% SI . Try
> commercial spec SAE CA655. There are other types of silicon bronze with
> ...


The shafts used in salt water are not typical stainless, unless ordered from unrepeatable businesses, they are Aqualoy 22. They are MUCH more resistant to crevice and pitting corrosion than 304, 316 or the lesser AQ or Monel variants.

Most of the shafting used from 1982 on called "bronze" was a very high zinc content product intended for industrial pump shafting. Much of it lacked the tin content to help it resists dezincification as we can see in the pics I posted above.. That shaft came off a 1984 Sabre. This shafting is rarely ever straight enough to meet industry spec and much of it did not meet the ABYC P-06 strength standards for shafting.

When Anaconda filed for bankruptcy in 1982 or so, so went the patent for Tobin bronze which is what the good quality marine shafting was made of. No one ever bought the patent because there was no sense in competing with the Nitronic or AQ variants that were coming on-line and are stronger performers in both strength and corrosion resistance.

Keep in mind that if you buy raw bronze bar stock it will most likely not be straightened to ABYC P-6 standards and you'll very likely incur a large time/labor charge to get it to within tolerance spec. The AQ 22 in the size the OP needs is shipped straightened to within 0.003" and both Roses and NE Prop makes sure it is within spec before it leaves the shop...

Bronze shafting is also considerably more prone to "shaft whip", which results in more vibrations, especially when folding or feathering props are added and the distance from the bearing moves aft. While shaft whip may not be an issue with a very short shaft the Oday's have rather long shafts, with long unsupported distances, that can get whippy.

The two largest keel suppliers in North America still use quality stainless steel keel bolts of both 304 and 316L. 2205 or other variants can be supplied as an up charge but it is a very rare request. Neither do much of anything with bronze and the largest keel manufacturer won't generally use them in sizes under 1 1/2" diameter.....


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I made the trip (50 miles each way) to New England Propeller in Plymouth, MA (they closed their S. Boston office). 

I left them with the three big pieces of the shaft; one with coupling attached, one with the prop attached, and the piece that I took out between them. They're going to press out the coupling (Dave offered to try and salvage the old coupling that you see above. I told him not to bother. Once the moths get out of my wallet, I spend like a drunken sailor.) They are also going to remove and re-balance the prop.

On order is a new coupling, a Stainless Steel Prop Shaft, and a PSS Shaft Seal, a fit & face of the coupling & shaft, and a re-balance of the prop. I'll post when it comes in, and try to remember to take pix.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Denise & Barry,

My rudder is actually fine! I don't know it's history, but it was looked at when I bought the boat (1 year ago) and it was good. I have never taken my moisture meter to it, but there are no trails of rust, or other indications of problems. It was tapped with a phenolic hammer by the surveyors. What should I look for? 

Unlike Denise, I do NOT want to take my rudder home - unless I have to.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hi,

My rudder wasn't (isn't) in bad condition. Each winter, when the boat is on the hard, I would see a few drips on each side, about 15" up from the bottom. So, since I had to remove the rudder anyway, I drilled a few small holes near when I saw the drips and then I let it sit in my basement all winter. The basement is dry and I placed the rudder near the furnace, so it was relatively warm. very little water came out, maybe 10 drips all winter. 

In the spring I injected epoxy into the holes and put a bead of 5200 around the rudder post. 

Barry


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

*Quick update*

Denise and Barry are right. The rudder has to be dropped. - And the damned thing is HEAVY! I'd estimate 200lbs.

In order to remove it, I had to dig a 2' hole under the rudder, and then pound the retaining bolt out of the quadrant, and then I had to loosen all the bolts that hold both halves of the quadrant together (4 9/16" and 2 7/16"). I then pried both halves apart with screwdrivers. The retaining bolt is a 3/8", 16 thread, stainless steel cap head screw, that is 8" long. I mushroomed the end, and buggered the threads while trying to remove it. New one is on order.

Here are some pix of the old, new, or improved parts.

Old stuffing box and hose​








Purdy, isn't it?uke










Look closely and you will see where the shaft was rubbing on the stuffing box. THIS, I believe, was the source of the noise.

New PSS Shaft seal​








1 & 3/4" ID to fit over the shaft log. 1" Shaft.

Rebalanced Prop, and balance report​








That's a 16" 9 rev/foot prop with a 1" bore.

Contrary to what I believed above, there is NO bore reducer used in this application. The guy that I dealt with at NE Prop, said that a propeller shaft zinc would take care of any galvanic corrosion. (I don't think so...)

New and machined coupling​









Everything - including the new Prop Shaft​









New Cutlass Bearing
New Prop Shaft
New PSS Shaft Seal
New Coupling
Rebalanced Prop
Machining...
Almost $1K worth of parts in this picture.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

If your rudder really weighs 200 lbs it must have A LOT of water in it. Mine weighed 100 MAX, I was easily able to move it into my car, then into the basement and then into the garage for repair. It's real bulky because of the length, but it should not weigh anything close to 200. 

If you think removing it was fun, wait until you get to install it! 

Oh, did you find the two bearings, top and bottom? Don't forget them when you install the rudder. 

When I installed mine I was able to fit it in position, then I looked a line under it and connected the line the jib winches. I used the winches to raise the rudder up into position so the quadrant could be bolted back on.

Good luck,
Barry


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Barry's right. Getting the rudder back in can be a bear. I've found a small bottle jack works wonders. You can raise the rudder slowly under complete control. Last time I did it this way entirely on my own. Jacked it into position and then went up to put the bolt into the top fitting.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

eherlihy said:


> Contrary to what I believed above, there is NO bore reducer used in this application.


Bore reducers are a band-aid approach to fix an issue that should have been fixed by having a matching prop bore tape and shaft sized to that prop. There is no need for one so why complicate matters by installing one.



eherlihy said:


> The guy that I dealt with at NE Prop, said that a propeller shaft zinc would take care of any galvanic corrosion. (I don't think so...)


That is the whole purpose of the shaft zinc. Millions of boats out there with manganese bronze props and SS shafts and the only times you see real issues is when there is a DC leak issue, a hot marina or the owner painted the prop with copper bottom paint.. If you keep up with the zinc you'll be more than fine. Just be aware that the PSS, as can GFO packings, may accelerate zinc erosion as the carbon/graphite is very, very noble..

Even your bronze shaft was connected to a steel coupling, which was then connected to an engine with, steel, aluminum, brass, copper and other alloys in it.. That's why you use a zinc..

Even if you try and isolate a shaft with a drive saver you are going outside ABYC P-06 suggested practice, if your engine is ship ground, as most are..


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

rudders don't have drain holes.. we drill em!


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

*The Rudder*

Here is a picture of the beast: (NO Comments about the crap in my garage - OK?)









About two hours ago I put it on a bathroom scale and it weighed in at exactly 200lbs!

Then, I tipped it over, and out poured about ½ gallon of water, and I could hear the water sloshing around inside.

It seems that water is getting in around the rudder post (here;








- the reddish stuff is not rust, but waterproof grease injected into the Zerk fitting when I lubed the rudder shaft). Water was apparently travelling down to fill the rudder from the bottom. (a 3rd water tank?)

I assume that that ring is the bearing that a previous poster referred to. I can only find one, however....

I have since stored the rudder with the post oriented horizontally, and the leading edge down (ie. rudder pointing up). I think that in the last two hours another gallon of water has since drained out of it.

The plan is to let the rudder dry out over the winter, and then to seal around it in the spring with a tube of 4200.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Wow! It's these kind of threads that make this forum invaluable!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

EH... Sorry you found the water.. You may want to keep this in mind, assuming your boat is like mine. The top of the rudder post if covered with a screw in type access hatch (4" round I used) condensation will form under the hatch and drip into the post which is hollow all the waaaaay down. Since you carried yours home, burped it, and plan to keep it warm. I'm afraid the water won't dry out unless some means to dry it are used. Which is why I'm thinking lots of holes vacuum bag and vac pump (HVAC people have them  ) Water evaporates very quickly at low atmospheric pressure. Jus sayin...


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## BELLATRIX1965 (Jan 2, 2007)

Nicely done! I'm confident that you will be pleased with the PSS shaft seal - no more messing with stuffing boxes, and the seal (properly installed) will NOT fret your pretty new prop shaft like packing will! 

I installed a PSS about 4 years ago, and have had excellent results.

A couple of cautions, though:

a) you need to hook either a "vent" hose to that nipple on the stationary then lead well above the water line, or plumb in water supply to that nipple from your raw water system to act as a flushing line for the seal. Mechanical seal flushing lines are found on virtually all seawater pumps on ships - keeps the seal faces lubricated. If that seal runs dry, it is toast!

and b) read the manual - the rubber bellows is supposed to be replaced every 6 years. Cheap insurance (unfortunately, the new bellows has to be slid over the end of the shaft - and you know what THAT means!) - if that bellows were to fail, it would be really tough to keep the ocean out.

All that said, use plenty of anti-sieze when assembling your shaft coupling and set screws! Good luck on the re-install!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Almost 4 yrs on my PSS too! love it!


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## BELLATRIX1965 (Jan 2, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> Almost $1K worth of parts in this picture.


NEVER forget - it's a B.O.A.T. (Break Out Another Thousand)!!


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

That ring is indeed the lower bearing. There should be an upper bearing. It may be stuck to the boat where the rudder post passes through. It goes above the rudder quadrant (as you can see in the pic)










I put a bead of 5200 around my rudder post when I had the rudder out.

Barry


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

And now for a confession...

While installing the prop shaft;
The prop shaft needed to be slid in from the rear, because space was too tight between the engine and the shaft log. I therefore needed to install the bellows and graphite seal before installing the prop shaft. No problem there. 

Then I needed to install the stainless seal over the shaft. No problem with this either - I sanded the edges of the shaft and keyway with 600 grit paper, coated the shaft with Dawn, slipped the seal and rubber rings over the end and up against the bellows. (I still haven't used any of the set screws yet).

Then I needed to install the coupling. I coated the inside of the coupling and the keyway with Tef-gel, and slid the end over the shaft. Here things go awry.. While I could get the coupling on the shaft, I could not fully seat it. I can't fit a hammer between the coupling and the shaft to tap it. So, I put a block of wood (1½"pine) between the coupling and the transmission, to act as a shock absorber. Then, I tapped on a block of wood on the aft end of the propeller shaft to push the shaft into the coupling. I was basically hammering the shaft forward into the coupling, and against the block of wood, which was held in place by the transmission flange.

Well, lightly tapping didn't get the shaft into the coupling, so I tapped harder with a bigger hammer - for about 15 minutes. The coupling is _still _about 1/8 inch from where it needs to be, and I am frustrated.

My plan, when I get back to the boat, is to use a series of wooden blocks to brace the coupling against the transmission, and NOT the flange. Then to heat the coupling with a propane torch, for about 10 min to heat, and hopefully expand the coupling. Finally, what any red-blooded-american-boy would do, I plan to use a bigger hammer!

Thoughts? Ideas? Solutions???


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Thanks Barry!

That pic helps a LOT. The upper bearing is still in place, as I have not removed the quadrant. Hopefully, I will only have to worry about the lower bearing... in the spring of 2012


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

eherlihy said:


> And now for a confession...
> 
> While installing the prop shaft;
> The prop shaft needed to be slid in from the rear, because space was too tight between the engine and the shaft log. I therefore needed to install the bellows and graphite seal before installing the prop shaft. No problem there.
> ...


Eherlihy,

STOP HAMMERING. Something is wrong, most likely key bound. Pull the coupling off and start over. It should NOT fit that tight. This is a light tap or press fit...


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Maine Sail said:


> STOP HAMMERING. Something is wrong, most likely key bound. Pull the coupling off and start over. It should NOT fit that tight. This is a light tap or press fit...


I don't like the idea of hammering against the bearings either. My hope is that the block of pine is buying me some slack.

When I picked up the shaft and coupling, the guy at the shop (never heard of Tef-Gel, BTW) suggested that I heat the coupling for an hour or two in an oven, and place an icepack on the end of the shaft. While I understand why and what he was suggesting, it was not feasible for a boat that is 45 miles away from home in a boat yard. (no fridge, and no oven since she's been decommissioned for the winter)

Also, I know that the key is not bound. I can move the key in and out along the keyway between the coupling and the shaft.

The real problem is that there is no room to fit a wooden / rubber hammer between the transmission coupling and the shaft coupling. There might be 4" total in which to work.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

How's bout a slide hammer like they use on body work?


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

deniseO30 said:


> How's bout a slide hammer like they use on body work?


Thanks D- but I can not see how that would help. 

I need to press the shaft forward (which I can do with the hammer - which I will stop) or press the coupling aft. There is NO ROOM between the transmission and the nice-new-shiny PSS Shaft seal to fit a hammer, even a slide hammer, to push the coupling aft.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Some comments.

1. The ring in your rudder picture is not the rudder bearing, its just a spacer. The lower rudder bearing is up in the bottom end of the rudder tube. 

2. With all that water in the rudder, I would be concerned about delamination in the rudder and possible corrosion of the internal structural grid. I would check this out before putting it back.

3. I agree to stop hammering. Sounds like the fit between the coupling and shaft is too tight. Take it apart (if you can) and take the shaft and coupling back to the propeller shop and have then fix things.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

eherlihy said:


> Thanks D- but I can not see how that would help.
> 
> I need to press the shaft forward (which I can do with the hammer - which I will stop) or press the coupling aft. There is NO ROOM between the transmission and the nice-new-shiny PSS Shaft seal to fit a hammer, even a slide hammer, to push the coupling aft.


Eherlihy,

Here's what I suspect;

1- That coupling has already been on and off the shaft a few times when they fitted it and faced it. It did go on/off without "heavy" hammering so that means something has happened between then & now.

2- It is possible you dropped the shaft on the coupling end and caused a burr that was enough to cause issues.

3- You possibly did not start the shaft into the coupling STRAIGHT and created a ridge & pushed it or created a burr. Even a few ten thou will cause any sort of defect in the coupling or shaft to bind up as this is an interference press fit.

4- REMOVE the coupling by pressing it off with a socket and some bolts. Check the outside of the shaft and inside of the coupling for any defects.

5- The Tef-Gel may have helped cause this issue as it "lubed" the shaft and allowed the burr or defect created by starting crooked to worsen until it completely bound up.

6- It is CRITICAL that the coupling be started 100% straight. Bolting the coupling to the gear box can help get it started and with a LIGHT tapping with a wood mallet, lead hammer or brass hammer you can get it to start easily. Once it is started straight it should simply "tap" into place. Use TWO people...


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Just letting you know that I am away from the boat for two weeks... I will post again when I can get back, and remove the coupling.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

The solution was about 7 min with this:









I used a 19mm socket to press the coupling off the shaft, as has been written about elsewhere. Once it was off I examined it for any scratches, burrs, or other defects. There were none to be found.

I then heated the coupling to about 150º with the heat gun, and tried to re-install it. I was shocked when it SLID on by hand!

I also noticed that the starboard rear motor mount is way out of adjustment. I will probably replace them all and be done with it.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Before;









After;








Note that the batteries are not yet re-installed for the season.

New motor mounts;


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Nice!

Looks great and well done.

Barry


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Thank you Barry.

I spend the time to photograph and document this stuff to give other O'day 34/35 owners (other brand / model boat owners too!) some ideas, and the courage, to try and tackle some this stuff themselves. If I can do it, anyone can.

Here is what the engine looked like when I bought her in the fall of 2010;








The cooling hose is held clear of that old Motorola 50A alternator by Zip Ties! 
The old style M25 alternator bracket! Which explains the new timing case cover.
The coolant pump leaked like a sieve. (See that green fuzzy stuff - coolant!)
That T on the coolant elbow was full of air, so the temp never read accurately.
The wiring was a rats nest, everything was re-wired, but not to ABYC color code, nor was it documented.
the seal around the crankshaft was cracked and leaked. It sprayed a light coating motor oil over everything.
I had 2 surveyors look at the boat and neither one thought anything was amiss...









Hot water heater was plumbed into the main cooling circuit, with big honkin' hoses.
Wooden backing plate NPT/NPS fittings and a strainer on the undersized through hull. I couldn't reach that through hull handle either.

Sorry to see that your stem head fitting cracked. Let us know how you get it repaired.


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