# Spinnaker without a pole



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

My boat came with a spinnaker and all the rigging the boat to fly it except the pole. 

However I do have a collapsable whisker pole. I realize it's much more lightly built and doesn't have quite the correct fittings, but I think I could get it rigged in a kind of a half-axed way. As long as I'm doing this on a very calm day, like 5 knot winds, I should be OK, right?

This is a small boat on a small lake, if things go pear shaped I figure it shouldn't be that hard to just muscle the sail down or let it fly into the water.

Alternately, what happens if you fly a symmetric like an asymmetric? Is it completely the wrong shape, would it work at all?

I'm not trying to do anything productive here, I'm just playing around and want to see the big pretty sail fly.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Yes, in a gentle breeze under the conditions you describe, you could probably get away with using the whisker pole. If the breeze pipes up, you'd better douse quickly.
No, you can't (with any reasonable success) fly a symmetric like an assym. You can however, do it the other way- You can use an assym with a pole.

I had a friend with a Precision 21 who make a spinnaker pole from a piece of spruce and bought the end fittings online and stuck 'em on there. If you can't find a used pole somewhere, you could make one.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

A symmetrical can indeed be flown without a pole. On a 'lake' you can fly it with just two sheets. It is great practice for boat handling. Normally done with the main down. Alternatively it can be flown with a short line to the stem, perhaps 10% of the hoist height. Looks a bit goofy, but works just fine. Again good practice.

I would not use the whisker pole. Far too weak. Perhaps possible if it the collapsable type and used fully shortened. Sounds like a possibly expensive folly.

Nothing about sailing is "productive".


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I'm a bit leery of the idea of using a whisker pole as a spinn pole. Asking for trouble at some point. Plus the Whisker probably isn't rigged with good attachments for the pole downhaul and lift... pretty important parts of the picture.

Start browsing craigslists for a used pole.. one that's too long can be cut down, for that matter you could lengthen one too if necessary and possibly cheaper than buying a new one. 

But trying to learn how to fly one without the proper setup is asking for frustration or worse...

I'm also not a fan of flying any kite without a mainsail up.. if things go pear-shaped there's no 'lee' to hide the chute behind for a controllable takedown (can you say 'rope burn'?).. and esp on a lake 5 knots can turn to 25 in a heartbeat.


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

Whisker poles aren't capable of handling the compression loads of a spinnaker close reaching. Have taken a line control pole apart and the internals are a joke when it comes to handling compression loads. In the conditions you outline, a whisker pole would probably work just fine but take it down right quick if the wind comes up. Haunt Ebay and Craig's List for a proper spinnaker pole. You can sheet the spinnaker to the main boom but would have to drop the main to do it with efficiency.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

I've done it, but only dead downwind or nearly so. If you head up onto a broad reach (please don't) or higher (really really please don't) the load may be too much and you'll have a v-shaped ex-whisker pole.

Also you lack anywhere to put a pole downhaul, so lead the guy fairly far forward so it sort of downhauls the pole.

And your whisker pole may be too short compared to a conventional spin pole. I have clipped one onto the weather shroud to make it longer when on a dead run. This is semi-dangerous if the wind gets above six knots or so for several reasons in addition to the ones mentioned above about too much load.

Best result is you have fun, and nothing bad happens. 

Second best, you prang the pole and have to buy a new one, which may get you into the market for a used spinny pole (there are many) as well, which is what you needed to do all along. Third best, you break something other than just the pole (or the weather shroud). Fourth best, someone gets hurt.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I am interested in aloof's idea of flying it pole-free with just two sheets. It seems like it would just collapse, but if it works it'd be kinda cool and it seems like it'd be hard to get into too much trouble that way.

I've looked on Craigslist occasionally, but I haven't found anything. I don't have any compelling reason to fly my spinnaker, other than that I have it and it would look cool, so I don't want to spend a ton of money on this. I need a new main before I need a spinnaker pole.

I am tempted to try it with my whisker pole, despite all the wise advice against it… I think I could rig a couple bridles on it for attachment points, and as long as the wind was really low… And doesn't suddenly change from 5 to 15 knots, and doesn't suddenly clock 120º… 

What got me thinking on this was a couple Sundays ago there was only the barest hint of a breeze. Just to keep movement on when on a very broad reach I ended up poling out my 170 nylon drifter opposite the main to windward. Someone took a picture of me and uploaded it to the lake page with the caption "Tag You're It rocking a spinnaker" even though I wasn't. But afterwards I was thinking that maybe I should have been.


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

If you do decide to go for/find a spinnaker pole, get one that's longer than your 'J' measurement. Spinnaker poles limited to 'J' measurement are rating rules dictated, not best performance. A genoa winged out will set better with a longer pole and a spinnaker will be out in cleaner air. My boat has a 13'9" 'J' measurement but 135% genoa sets best with a pole about 18' long. Have a 12/22 line control whisker pole that worked really well set at about 18' until it pretzeled on the sail to Hawaii. Switched over to the 16' spinnaker pole which worked okay but not as good a set as I got with the longer pole. Would not get a pole shorter than 'J'. The problem with a proper diameter whisker pole is not bending it but that the line control mechanism just isn't designed to take the compression loads. On the 12/22 pole, the line that controls extension/resists compression is anchored to a flimsy stamped SS eye strap riveted internally to the pole end. When I took it apart to replace the bent section discovered the SS eye strap badly distorted and the pop rivets nearly ready to pop off. The pole bent because the diameter on the extension part wasn't up to the load possibly because it dipped into the ocean. It happened at 0 dark:30 on a moonless night while I was asleep so don't know what caused it. Did note that the pole was flexing a bit under the load which was moderate trade winds running DDW before I sacked out. I was pushing the mfg. recommended boat size limit on the pole.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Whatever you do don't use a symmetrical spinnaker like an asym, you may never use a pole (ever).








Don't use a whisker pole... use it like an asym... works fine until winds are up so much you likely won't wanna run the spin short handed anyway.

Just remember to jibe the sheets on the OUTSIDE (run them around the forestay).


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

SHNOOL said:


> Don't use a whisker pole... use it like an asym... works fine until winds are up so much you likely won't wanna run the spin short handed anyway.


So that looks like you ran a short tack line to get the foot of the spinnaker up a bit? About 10% like aloof said?

Sure looks like an easy way to use the sail.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

I'd love to take credit for that spin, but the prior owner did it... I just used it that way... Definitely a symmetrical spin though.

Yes short tack line that I extended back to the cockpit, so I could ease it out to let it roll forward as I sailed deeper. I never ran it under high winds (anything higher than 10 knots).

The larger spin pict ( while on the ground) is here (keep in mind this was for a Capri 22 boat, a VERY small spin):









Note I screwed up my sheets? Also note I was working on my outhaul too.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

SHNOOL said:


> Note I screwed up my sheets?


I did that last night.

I had switched to my storm jib. I pulled away from the dock and saw a boat full of people, I figured I'd show them how to sail in heavy winds singled-handed! So I tacked over to follow them and found that my jib sheet was inside the lifelines. And my fenders were down.

Doh.


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## willyd (Feb 22, 2008)

I've sailed on a reach in light winds with a spinnaker and fairly long (3 ft) line to the bow fitting. It seemed to work OK.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Yes you can use a spinnaker without a pole.

Practice with the wind gentle and set it dead down wind. It will fly fine. Then start slowly coming slightly more up, just a bit. Watch the Clew and the Guy (the windward sheet) when it is about to touch the forestay that's as high as you can go.
Youcshoukd be able to get 30 degrees to windward, I would have thought, more probably, close to 120 off the wind.


On the bit about buying a pole. You say it's a small boat on a lake.b.s. bit of bamboo will do fine. Lots of flex.

If you want a 'real'books you can but Alum pipe 2 inch diameter in 22 foot lengths. Annodise should be cheap. Buy 2 pole fittings (they are cheap for the 2 inch pip)

Cut to length which is about a foot past your forestay.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

aloof said:


> A symmetrical can indeed be flown without a pole. On a 'lake' you can fly it with just two sheets.


There's a difference between "flying without a pole" and "flying like an asymm" which is what the PO initially asked.

Yes, you can "free fly" a symm kite with two sheets as you described, but tacking the clew of a symm kite to the bow as if it were an asymm and sheeting the other clew doesn't work. The shape is just wrong for that.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

We fly our symmetrical spinnaker with a homemade "tacker" more often than we do with a the spin pole. It's easy, particularly for a short-handed crew in light air. Get yourself some parrel beads, paracord and a snap shackle and you're all set.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Generally, a sym is unstable without a pole, and tends to wobble port and starboard, and become too "narrow" as the clews become closer to each other as the spinny gets a bigger "belly". And if you head up, the "guy" really saws against the headstay.

Where I've most often seen it done is in racing, approaching the leeward mark on a run and getting ready for the next beat, we take the pole off before lowering the halyard, so it "flies by itself" for just long enough for you to get the pole out of the way and stowed, but not long enough for you to get protested, since the racing rules or class rules (used to, anyway) require a spinnaker to be flown only while attached to its pole. Then you can have a quick takedown just before the rounding, and with no pole still in place which would inhibit you from being able to tack after rounding the mark.

Also really convenient if you're going to takedown to windward, not leeward.


With students, on a boat with a spinny and lifelines, I usually tell them, "Whenever you rig a spinnaker, there about twelve ways to screw it up, I can usually think of nine or ten of them, so don't feel bad if you get any of your "spaghetti" on the wrong side of a lifeline, jib sheet, or shroud, it's human nature" ;-)


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

The other thing about flying a pole-less symmetrical is that it's going to severely limit how deep you can sail with stability. I'd also submit that gybing a symmetrical cleanly will go better with a pole.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Ajax_MD said:


> tacking the clew of a symm kite to the bow as if it were an asymm and sheeting the other clew doesn't work. The shape is just wrong for that.


That makes sense because the clew would be too high and likely the belly of the sail would be in the wrong place.

However&#8230; It sure sounds like a lot of people do it! My guess is that you can probably broad to deep reach with an asym-rigged symmetrical, and it will work although it won't be optimal.

Which is fine for me, I don't need optimal, I just want to see the big thing fly without endangering myself. Pretty colors, big kite, whee!



kwaltersmi said:


> We fly our symmetrical spinnaker with a homemade "tacker" more often than we do with a the spin pole. It's easy, particularly for a short-handed crew in light air. Get yourself some parrel beads, paracord and a snap shackle and you're all set.


I don't have roller furling so I don't really need an ATN-style tacker, I could just put a shackle around the forestay.

But would I really need to do that? I have a fitting on my stem ahead of the forestay, could I just run two feet or so of line from that to the tack of the spinnaker?


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

If you're going to fly the thing like an asymm but don't want to use a "tacker" (re: your comment about not having roller furling) then don't just put a shackle on the bow stem- Put a light block at the bow stem and rig a tack line through it so that you can at least adjust the tack.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Love the comments about how it won't work, and how to do it after I showed pictures of it done. This is why I love the internet.

Answer is you can fly between about 130 and 120 degrees AWA in light air (under 10 knots true) with it being only slightly better than a 155% genoa. Does that help?

Oh and others suggest a moveable tackline.. YEP... and if you can get the clew to ride up the forestay (as was suggested with the ATN tacker or beads) then by all means do so... the prior owner to my boat fixed that problem too by putting a hank on it near the clew (you can also see in this picture).. He must have really hated spin poles...


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

SHNOOL said:


> Love the comments about how it won't work, and how to do it after I showed pictures of it done. This is why I love the internet.
> 
> Answer is you can fly between about 130 and 120 degrees AWA in light air (under 10 knots true) with it being only slightly better than a 155% genoa. Does that help?
> 
> Oh and others suggest a moveable tackline.. YEP... and if you can get the clew to ride up the forestay (as was suggested with the ATN tacker or beads) then by all means do so... the prior owner to my boat fixed that problem too by putting a hank on it near the clew (you can also see in this picture).. He must have really hated spin poles...


LOL...ok, sure you can do it. I can bang nails in with the handle of a screwdriver but it's slow and painful and damages the screwdriver. You just said yourself that it's only marginally better than using a plain ol' genoa.

The OP said that he just wants to see the big sail fly and say "Whee!" Ok cool, I get that so have at it. However, if he decides to get more serious about it, I suggest that he either buy an asymm or buy the missing bits and bobs to fly a symm the way it was meant to be used.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

Ajax_MD said:


> LOL...ok, sure you can do it. I can bang nails in with the handle of a screwdriver but it's slow and painful and damages the screwdriver. You just said yourself that it's only marginally better than using a plain ol' genoa.


Pretty silly this. Deep on the wind a symmetrical tacked to the stem is far more powerful than a genoa shadowed by the main.

Only cruisers tack spinnakers to the headstay. That seems pointless to me. Tacked to the stem the spinnaker can fly far to windward: powerful. The lee shoulder of the spinnaker will be flying beyond the main shadow as well. But it does look a little goofy. I would definitely do it if my predicament made it my best option...broken pole or torn asymmetric.

Works fine. And we saw pics above too!


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

SHNOOL said:


> you can fly between about 130 and 120 degrees AWA in light air (under 10 knots true) with it being only slightly better than a 155% genoa.


I have a 170 nylon genoa / drifter that I can use from close-hauled to a broad reach, so it sounds like mis-using my symmetric spinnaker won't get me anything I can't already do. Maybe this is what people mean when they say it won't work.

Nonetheless, this is my third year with the boat and I've never used the spinnaker. Even if it's less effective than my drifter I want to get it flying just for kicks.



SHNOOL said:


> Oh and others suggest a moveable tackline.. YEP... and if you can get the clew to ride up the forestay (as was suggested with the ATN tacker or beads) then by all means do so... the prior owner to my boat fixed that problem too by putting a hank on it near the clew


Wow, that hank looks like it could be a hazard if you ever used that spinnaker in the regular way. Also it seems overly complicated. Wouldn't a shackle or carabiner through the tack and around the forestay accomplish the same thing, without permanently modifying the spinnaker?

So it sounds like my setup should be a small block set in front of my forestay, a line run from the cockpit through the block to the tack, a shackle or carabiner to slide the tack up and down the forestay, and long spinnaker sheets run outside the forestay.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Displacement boats don't generally benefit much from an asym... at least not without a sprit... its strictly a downwind sail, and yep your 170 light air killer will likely be better. This might sail you just a bit deeper but not enough to matter. Someone considering this would likely not even have a 155.

Yep the prior owner of that boat I had lost the spin pole... so it was never used the "right" way, so the hank wasn't a concern... Also the boat came with a furler and a 110 on that furler, so he was looking for something for light air and downwind.

I later added a pole to the boat, a better spin, and a decent laminated 155. Then I sold the boat, and bought something faster, that was already rigged for a symmetrical spin.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Minnesail said:


> this is my third year with the boat and I've never used the spinnaker..


Unless I am racing I could never be assed. Run all those lines just so the wind can change? That's crew work!


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Do yourself a favor and buy a spinnaker pole so you can use your spinnaker. A spinnaker allows you to keep sailing in the common circumstances of low wind pressure after the beam. I use mine regularly. You can leave you spin sheets run, ready to use, just hang off the stern rail.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

The Catalina-22 has a J dimension of only 8 ft. Spinnaker poles are typically a 'scoch' larger than the J dimension. For a Cat-22 a ~9ft. aluminum spinn. pole of 1-1/2" dia. would be relatively insignificant in cost; most of the end connections/fittings are easily obtainable on the internet: mast ring connector (you really don't need a mast track for the spinn pole @ 8-9 ft. long, end fitting spring jaws, spinnaker sock, etc. etc. Hell, Sailrite.com has a kit for your your boats spinnaker for moderate $$ and you _can_ reef the spinnaker with the 'sock' if needed. 
For sail control, I recommend (all from the cockpit), a pole topping lift / downhaul, ... 'twing' lines that are terminated to plastic rings (the spinn sheets pass through the plastic rings) ... when the twings are pulled 'down' they act as a substitute for foreguys. Plus, I'd add deep grooved sheaves to the outboard side of base of the cap shrouds .... so sometimes instead of using the 'twings', simply place the windward spinn sheet under the windward roller mounted to the cap shroud, etc. etc.

All this is to keep the spinnaker STABLE under varying wind strengths and course angle .... the lower the wind speed, the lower the pole; and vice versa etc. If the symmetric is pinned to the stem or the forestay of the boat you're simply not going to have a STABLE spinnaker at other than very light wind speeds. 
Consider to set up the boat properly to fly a symmetric spinnaker ... its not going to cost an arm and a leg for a boat with an 8 ft. "J" dimension; plus, you will have a STABLE spinnaker (not oscilating back and forth .... and driving you 'nuts'). Id suggest TWO LINE (spinn sheets) control with adjustable 'twings' to substitute for foreguys (used for 4 line control)..... and you'll find very quickly that you'll REALLY NEED to raise/lower that spinn pole to keep that spinnaker STABLE.

hope this helps.


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## threeagon (Aug 26, 2016)

Minnesail - I have spinnaker pole from a Chrysler 22 that you can have. I don't know anything about it because I never used it and no longer have the Chrysler. The pole has a curve to it that I'm not sure if it's suppose to have or not and it has a bunch of rigging attached. I'm in **** Rapids if you're interested.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

threeagon said:


> Minnesail - I have spinnaker pole from a Chrysler 22 that you can have. I don't know anything about it because I never used it and no longer have the Chrysler. The pole has a curve to it that I'm not sure if it's suppose to have or not and it has a bunch of rigging attached. I'm in **** Rapids if you're interested.


Really?! That'd be awesome! Are you around this weekend?


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

RichH said:


> For a Cat-22 a ~9ft. aluminum spinn. pole of 1-1/2" dia. would be relatively insignificant in cost; most of the end connections/fittings are easily obtainable on the internet: mast ring connector (you really don't need a mast track for the spinn pole @ 8-9 ft. long, end fitting spring jaws, spinnaker sock, etc. etc.


A new pole for my boat runs around $500. I didn't really look at eBay because I figured shipping would be prohibitive, it didn't occur to me to just look for the ends.

I do have a mast track. I have not moved it since I bought the boat.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Update: Yesterday I finally got an afternoon of very light winds to play with my spinnaker. I tried flying it like an asym with one corner as the tack at the stem fitting, and also with both clews free with no pole.

As recommended I put a block on my stem fitting and ran a line back to the cockpit so that I could raise and lower the "tack" of the spinnaker. (This line has also been handy as a downhaul for my jib.) I shackled the tack to the forestay. It might have been better to let it fly free, I'm not sure. The result was that I could get almost to a beam reach before the leading edge of the sail collapsed. Sailing dead downwind it kind of pillowed out and wasn't super effective. Running enough line to allow a jibe meant there was a ton of string in the cockpit. Conclusion: Kind of fun, but a hassle and not any faster than my nylon 170 drifter.

Next I tried flying it free, no pole. Wheeee! It was definitely a challenge, but what fun! I stood in the cockpit with the tiller between my knees and one sheet in each hand until I got it dialed in. It really found some wind! I was going about 2 knots on my way upwind, but was making 4 knots with the spinnaker downwind. Conclusion: Fun! Probably a little faster than wing-and-wing with the jib poled out. You really have to watch the helm to make sure you keep your angle right.

I apologize for the crappy pictures, I mostly had my hands full just trying to keep the sail inflated, and I had to use the panorama feature to get the full sail in so the pictures are a bit distorted.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Yeah, fun right?

When flying the symmetrical spin w/out a pole ya kinda hafta steer into the sail as you found out. Fun but really only going ddw or a few degrees off. 
With a symmetrical spin w/a pole you can sail about as high as a beam reach with much tinkering.

What is that yellow bit at the top of the mast? Is that your royal pennant? Admiral of the Yellow?


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

CalebD said:


> What is that yellow bit at the top of the mast? Is that your royal pennant? Admiral of the Yellow?


 It's a smiley face flag. It's actually about halfway up the topping lift, the distortion of the panorama makes it look like it's at the top.

I know it's cheesy, but I like it. I found a place that sells cheap flags and bought several with the intention of changing regularly, but I just kind of settled into the smiley face. So much so that I brought it with me on a charter trip last week. It's like the un-pirate flag, we dubbed it the Jolly Molly.

Here it is flying on the charter 39' Jeanneau:









Speaking of chartering and spinnakers and poles, jeez, I would have given my soul for a whisker pole on that trip. We had tons of downwind sailing, but the charter company doesn't trust us n00b bareboaters with poles so we had a heck of a time trying to do wing-and-wing.


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