# Concerned about buying a boat with no engine hour meter



## Whiskymac (Mar 11, 2016)

I am looking at a 1990 Catalina 30. I haven't seen it in person yet ( I will see it on Saturday)but after looking at pictures and specifications online and having a long phone conversation with the owner, I feel it may be a good candidate for my first keel boat.
I thought an hour meter came standard on the C30, however, owner states that neither he nor the previous owner know Why there isn't one.
From talking with him I get the strong feeling that he is being genuine about boat details and it sounds like he has been proactive in maintenance of the boat. He has owned the boat for 5 years and states that he probably puts less than 50 hours a year on the engine as he motors out of the marina then sails (previous owner based at same marina did the same). This is a freshwater boat based on the Great Lakes so numerous extended passages, while possible, are unlikely.
He is adamant that engine is an excellent performer.
I would definitely get a survey and would consider trying to get an engine guy to come on the sea trial with me.
How concerned should I be about buying this boat with respect to unknown engine hours?

Thanks.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

many boats do not have a hour meter and even if they did how would you know if it was hooked up the entire life of the boat. the hour meter does not tell you how the engine was operated. looking at the way the boat was keep up and talking to the owner can give you a sense for how it was operated and maintained


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Weird. No meter in the tach gauge? Hour meters are pretty important. Is this a diesel or gas? I would spring for a complete engine inspection from a reputable marine engine mechanic. You can also do an oil analysis. This doesn’t have to be on the day of the sea trial. The seller should be more than willing to accommodate this inspection. If not, then this isn’t the boat for you. If the engine inspection comes out O.K., I would negotiate a new tach with an hour meter as part of the deal. With a short sailing season on the great lakes, the hypothetical hours are probably within the life span of a Universal Diesel. However with your freezing winters and a whole lot of decommission/commissioning, I would be more comfortable with a mechanic’s inspection.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Yes it is it a diesel or an A4? If an A4 and it runs nice I might give it a compression test, but as long as it runs without smoking too much I doubt I would bother. Atomic 4's are pretty simple engines and it should be obvious by spark plug condition and how it runs as to the condition of the motor. Great Lakes are pretty big so it is not like there was not an opportunity for long passages, especially Lake Superior, seems folks there do more long distance cruising there than on the other lakes. (Heading out to the Apostles and what not) I spent high school and college weekends sailing out of Catawba Island on Lake Erie on a Catalina 30, fun times. Oh the Bass Islands, what a blast. Great boat for the lakes.


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

I think an hour meter is fairly useless at assessing the condition of a motor. A 30 year motor could have under 10 hours - I would be just as wary of that as one that had 50k hours. Motors need to be run. 

Also, as others have stated, who knows how legit the hour meter is? 

The real purpose of an hour meter is to keep track of regular maintainance, not evaluate the condition of a motor - the only way to evaluate it is a thorough inspection/compression test. I would much rather have a motor that was run weekly and maintained, than one that was run once a year.


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## Whiskymac (Mar 11, 2016)

The boat is on Lake Erie and has the Universal MP 25.
TRBS, wing keel, refrig. Autopilot, newer Genoa, original main, Bimini, dodger, Vic-17, newer sheets/halyards (2013), lazyjacks, cradle.
Rest of it sounds pretty good asking 23k
Opinions?


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## Lazerbrains (Oct 25, 2015)

23K would be a high price in my neck of the woods, but that is also because you can't throw a rock in a SoCal marina without hitting about 10 Cat 30s. 

I would offer less - it won't be going anywhere in a hurry at that price.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

The problem with no hour meter is it is impossible to schedule and perform routine maintenance. With no hour meter, can the seller show you in his records when he did oil changes and other routine maintenance? (He should be able to show you this even with a working hour meter.) Hour meters are also a good way to calculate the burn rate of fuel which would be a good indication if rings or valve guides are getting worn out. (As is how frequently the lubrication oil is being topped off.) Fuel gauges are notoriously unreliable and are prone to failure, and knowing the hours, tank capacity and amount of fuel in the last fuel up, and you will be able to predict when you need to next visit the fuel dock.

Come to think of it, my 1990 C28 had the hour meter as part of the tachometer.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

I wouldn't worry about an hour meter. 90% of sailboats at that size don't have one.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

The price is actually pretty good if she measures up. See the soldboats.com data below.


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## Whiskymac (Mar 11, 2016)

Thanks boatpoker that's a big help! And remember she is a freshwater boat, I thought she looked quite attractive at the ASKING price!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Wouldn't think this should blow up the deal but agree a careful assessment by a good wrench and an oil analysis is money well spent. Would be more concerned about those results then records which may be unreliable although they maybe helpful as well. Remember repowering is $$$$.Good luck.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

1990 is a pretty late (I think MKII?) so the price seems OK if she is in really good shape. They are all over the place the one I sailed on sold for $2,400 or so but had some soft spots in the cockpit sole and was an 80 or so. It had a diesel (Had I noticed the year I would have known it was not a A4) but the early diesels tended to be under-powered, but the MP 25 should be fine. If you are not afraid of work I might look for an older one, but only to keep the cost down. Nice thing is if you keep it in good shape it should sell fairly quickly nice ones are always in demand.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

I've always figured that an hour meter is more for the owner than a prospective buyer. It's nice to be able to keep track of maintenance by the hour meter, average gph used, equalize fuel tanks, etc. From a buyer's perspective unless there are maintenance logs to go along with the hour meter (this is the best situation) it really doesn't tell you much. Looking at the engine carefully, checking how it starts cold, oil pressure, etc will give you a much clearer picture of the condition of the engine than just going by hours. If you are concerned about any of the above then have an oil analysis done.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

I'm used to having an hour meter (1996 Catalina 28), and record the hours in my log each time I do service on the diesel. 

But, as I think about it, if I didn't have an hour meter, I'd probably do routine maintenance on a seasonal basis.
Here on the Great Lakes, we don't use out boats in the winter, so launch and haul outs tend to serve as reliable markers for when to do service. 

I do an oil change in the Spring, another in the fall for storage, and another oil change next Spring right after launch. 

I'm not shy about using my diesel, but I still don't put enough hours on in the summer to warrant doing another oil change in mid-summer. If I didn't have a meter, and I thought I'd been doing a lot of motoring, I'd change the oil again. Not expensive, can't hurt. 

If you get the boat, no matter how nice it is, it will soon reveal to you where dollars need to be applied. The tach/hour meter would be low on my list.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

GeorgeB said:


> The problem with no hour meter is it is impossible to schedule and perform routine maintenance. With no hour meter, can the seller show you in his records when he did oil changes and other routine maintenance? (He should be able to show you this even with a working hour meter.) Hour meters are also a good way to calculate the burn rate of fuel which would be a good indication if rings or valve guides are getting worn out. (As is how frequently the lubrication oil is being topped off.) Fuel gauges are notoriously unreliable and are prone to failure, and knowing the hours, tank capacity and amount of fuel in the last fuel up, and you will be able to predict when you need to next visit the fuel dock.
> 
> Come to think of it, my 1990 C28 had the hour meter as part of the tachometer.


It's not "impossible" to schedule routine maintenance. 
My boat has no hour meter. I log my engine hours in a moleskin book every time I go out.

An hour meter is nice, but is in no way a hard and fast indicator of engine health.

Funny that this topic came up. I do have a brand new hour meter on the way to make tracking maintenance easier. "Impossible" is too strong of a word though.


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

Ajax_MD said:


> An hour meter is nice, but is in no way a hard and fast indicator of engine health.


+1

I have an hour meter on my boat, but found out it was disconnected. It still read the hours listed as on the survey when the previous owner bought it. So there's no telling how many actual hours the engine has. The engine worked, but still was in need of a top end rebuild.

Hour meter shouldn't be an end-all to buying a boat. Look at the condition of the engine, hear it run, see if the PO has any maintenance logs, and if needed, get a mechanic to go over it to give you peace of mind.


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## basssears (Nov 8, 2010)

I agree with previous posts, hour meter is nice for planning your maintenance but by no means required... an attentive owner can do all the proper maintenance without an hour meter, an inattentive owner can destroy an engine with an hour meter.

Best advice I have received when looking at boats is "you're not buying the boat, you're buying the previous owner(s)"... if maintenance of boat in general appears conscientious and there are good records, take heart... if the things you can see look sloppy, the things unseen are bound to be worse.

I plan on installing a tiny-tach to use as an hour meter eventually (our boat does not have one either, which surprised me when we were looking) so I have an easier time keeping track, but right now I just log it every time we go out.

As far as oil analysis, don't pull all your eggs in that basket either... lots of funny results can happen, and when you send in the sample for best results you need to be ready to answer some specific questions (what weight oil, how many hours on it, etc) that you might not be able to when you're just looking at a boat... my understanding on oil analysis is that it's more useful as a repeat tool (i.e. do it once a year and see what's changed) than it is as a "one off" check of an engine, unless there's something catastrophically wrong with the motor.

-- Bass


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Hobbs meters cost money, so they become an extra cost option on a mass market boat and many buyers won't spend an extra $50-100 to order one new. After that, used boat buyers still don't want to spend the money and once the meter goes above "3" hours, sometimes they can't count those high digits anyway.

Hourly maintenance? Heck, for most folks that's "change the oil at the end of every season" and that's all the hours they need to know. 

Yes, your mileage will vary, but it might be more important to ask if the head is mounted athwartships. If it isn't, the boat wasn't designed and built by folks who'd gone to sea. Much harder to fix than adding a Hobbs meter.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I had a 1990 Catalina 28 and it had the standard, factory installed (Seaward) engine control panel. The tachometer on that standard panel had an engine hour meter. I suspect that somewhere along the years, this boat’s tach died and someone installed one without an hour meter. A good question to ask the seller is how many times he buys fuel each season. Perhaps I’ve spent too many years in aerospace, but I don’t understand why anybody wouldn’t want an hour meter. I guess if you never travelled much during the season, you could forgo the 100 hour oil change and instead do it once a year. Out here, our seasons run twelve months and our engine usage can vary greatly from month to month so it is very helpful in determining when to do maintenance and to calculate fuel usage and economy.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Perhaps I’ve spent too many years in aerospace, but I don’t understand why anybody wouldn’t want an hour meter. "
Seriously, George, you need to get out of the cockpit and spend more time in rush hour traffic. And on the freeway. You will have a zen moment and come to full understanding, in short order.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

The Universal M25 is based on a Kubota D-850. The Universal M25-XP is based on the Kubota D-950. All of these engines are easy to work on, and very reliable.

My 1987 O'day has the Universal M25 that it was born with, and an hour meter which read 176 hours when I bought the boat in 2010... The broker's listing sheet, and the spec's in YachtWorld said 176 hours too... The surveyor made no mention of any suspicion about the low number of hours in his report.

I highly suspect that what it _really_ indicated is that it had 176 hours between 2010 and when the engine was serviced, and the new control panel were added in 2004. The engine runs fine today, and the hour meter indicates over 500 hours (meaning that I use the engine over twice as much in the same time period as the previous owner).


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

??? How does an engine hour meter on a sailboat relate to commuting in rush hour traffic?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

George you're right of course but that reflects where the boat is and how it's used. 
For instance which boat do you want?
Charter with low hours but engine used for ten minutes then shut off. Temp never rising to operating temp. 
Boat sat on hard last several years so low hours. 
Boat cruised actively but never put away wet. First change at 50 then ever 75-100 but higher hours.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Was taught diesels like to be used. Like to be under load. Like to be at operating temp. Other than detailed assessment nothing tells you it's health. When buying used boats always asked for a holdback until wrench assessment and running the engine in at least several weeks occurred Only then released the holdback.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

In this case there is no way of telling how many engine hours are on this twenty six year old boat. It could be a lot or it could be a little. The only thing for certain is that the tach was replaced at some point as one with an hour meter is standard to a Catalina of this size and vintage. All that I'm recommending is the buyer have an engine survey done to confirm that everything is O.K.

I had the opportunity to go on an Outbound 46 at the recent boat show. Very, very nice. It will be a wonderful boat to cruise in.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

When I bought my boat, which was 5 yrs old at the time, it did not have an engine hour meter. It did have a "multi" display, however, that included a log. The log showed less than 800 nm. You might infer the engine hours from the log, but I soon learned that the log can only record distance when the paddle wheel is turning. Bottom paint, critters, seaweed, etc. can--and do--foul my paddle wheel frequently enough.

In any case, I added an hour meter. I believe it is accurate and has always worked until lightning intervened. Well, I keep a written log and record distance and engine hours every time I park my boat--whether at the dock or at anchor. I still keep a working hour meter in the boat, but all it is really used for is to tell me how many hours I have on the most recent oil change. After 20 years, I have only averaged 50 hours per season. Since I do an oil change at the end of every season, the hour meter hasn't really been needed. That said, I keep a running total of engine hours for the benefit of the next owner, I suppose.

So, given that an hour meter on a boat is not the same reliable indicator of wear and tear as an odometer in a car, I wouldn't worry if a prospective boat didn't have one. As others have said, what you really need is to have a good mechanic check the engine as part of your survey.


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## captjcook (Sep 27, 2008)

As a quick check of previous engine maintenance...I stick my finger in the oil fill when in the valve cover and feel the inside of cover...some are clean and smooth. Others are "gritty", some have thick sludge, indicating a lack of maintenance. No substitute for a proper engine survey or perhaps oil analysis, just a quick indicator, with lots of potential flaws....


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

captjcook said:


> As a quick check of previous engine maintenance...I stick my finger in the oil fill when in the valve cover and feel the inside of cover...some are clean and smooth. Others are "gritty", some have thick sludge, indicating a lack of maintenance. No substitute for a proper engine survey or perhaps oil analysis, just a quick indicator, with lots of potential flaws....


After the work I did on my engine and what I saw, I can see that as a good quick check. I had plenty of "grit" in my engine, although a very thin layer of thickened buildup in the oil pan.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

fallard said:


> After 20 years, I have only averaged 50 hours per season. Since I do an oil change at the end of every season, the hour meter hasn't really been needed. That said, I keep a running total of engine hours for the benefit of the next owner, I suppose.
> 
> So, given that an hour meter on a boat is not the same reliable indicator of wear and tear as an odometer in a car, I wouldn't worry if a prospective boat didn't have one. As others have said, what you really need is to have a good mechanic check the engine as part of your survey.


^^^THIS^^^

50 hours per season, unless the boat has done the ICW trek.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

eherlihy said:


> ^^^THIS^^^
> 
> 50 hours per season, unless the boat has done the ICW trek.


This is pretty normal on the New England coast. It speaks well for it as a cruising ground.

I don't have an hour meter or log engine time(that would be quite a task).

We do log total miles on the GPS each season(always on underway).

Without an engine meter, I use the number of gallons of diesel burned to back out a rough number of miles sailed vs miles under power.

With an 80 gallon diesel tank, that's pretty easy to do. Unless we cruise out of the area, we only fill-top it off once a season.

An hour meter would be handy but I wouldn't base condition of engine on hours unless they were enormous. We change the oil every season and the fuel filters, every other season.


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