# Mainsheet System



## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Help !!

A while back Alex posted a diagram of the mainsheet system on Giulietta. 

I'm trying to understand how that system works. 

If you don't know about his system it essentially has a mainsheet that goes to two winches, one on either side of the cockpit. I'm trying to understand how the line splits into two when it exits the boom attachments.

Even a pointer to a web link would be great cos Alex is away I believe and may not be able to answer himself.

Cheers


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

His mainsheet doesn't dead end at the boom... it goes through a block there IIRC. It probably looks a bit like this:










Hope that helps.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

TD, here are a few of his photos taken for various threads that should help show his set-up:


































Basically, he's taking the mainsheet the full length of the boom, then down to the deck and back to sheet winches in the cockpit.

I hope this helps.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Thanks Dog. There is something in the system that I don't understand but I think I get the basic idea. I've simply fogotten how it worked from my time on the G Boat.

Cheers


Thanks to you too Cameron.

A


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Gui's system is basically SD's diagram upside down.. it's the same tackle.

Since we have a pair of winches free in the cockpit (and an underpowered mainsheet tackle) I tried to set up something to use the winches in that fashion... simply couldn't arrange fair leads to the winches so went to plan B.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

tdw said:


> Thanks Dog. There is something in the system that I don't understand but I think I get the basic idea. I've simply fogotten how it worked from my time on the G Boat.


TDW,

That is a fairly common mainsheet arrangement, I see it on plenty of production boats here in the States. What aspect is troubling you, young padawan?


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I think you had a touch more wind than we did (except for a brief 20 knots or so down by "the washing machine" at Sagres), but you may have noticed that while Alex's tackle is smoothly operating, you have to stare at his line organizers for a few minutes to figure out what NOT to pull.

I did a two-hour watch at dawn alone and despite the near-absence of wind, I threw the engine into neutral and did some sailing using that mainsheet. It's actually pretty straightforward, but you have to be quick, not strong!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yup... he's got the single block on the traveler and the lines go up to the double block on the boom and forward to the mast, down to the cabintop and then back to the winches, but basically the same idea as the Harken drawing I posted. 

Speed is of the essence with this type of system since the winches do the heavy lifting.


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## Delirious (Dec 16, 2001)

On our C34 the mainsheet was "butted" at a turning block on the boom about a foot behind center-boom (I marked the middle of the line with a blue string whipping), down to a double block on a cabin-top traveler below center-boom, back up to two blocks side-by-side on a bail about a foot _ahead_ of center-boom, down to two blocks on either side of the mast base and then back to a winch on either side of the companionway.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Thanks to you all. 

Young Padawan indeed. Well I never. (well sometimes maybe  )


I've got it now. I can't really explain my confusion but it had to do with the anchor points for the sheet. Consider it sorted. 


It really is a great system. In many ways vastly superior to the standard system you see on most older boats .(4:1 purchase with a jaw jammer). 

When we had Raven re rigged I did'nt redo the mainsheet system other than to add more purchase. I've always regretted that but at the time the option seemed to be going forward then aft to a single winch which layout I didn't like at all. 

Have been discussing the 'Admiral's Cup' system elsewhere and am thinking about redoing the Womboat's setup even though it means buying and installing two new self tailors. Would prefer to stay with a system similar to what we have now but I loath the ratchet blocks we now have.

Valiente - yep the G Boat is a wow to sail but yes it all happens far to quickly for an old fart like me.


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## Classic30 (Aug 29, 2007)

tdw said:


> ...
> It really is a great system. In many ways vastly superior to the standard system you see on most older boats .(4:1 purchase with a jaw jammer).
> ...


Actually, you might be surprised to discover how old this set-up is. Quite a few designs from Giles and Stephens (to name two) had end-boom sheeting arrangements that went back along the boom - but I digress...

My only gripes with this set-up (and it's just personal preference, I suppose) are (a) that when you're not hard on the wind, the sheets hang from the bottom of the boom (see below) which could be a bit nasty in an accidental gybe - hmm, headless Alex? - and (b) having the mainsheets leave the mast and go down for the deck as they do, does make for one more obstacle if you need to go forward in a blow:










..anyways, good luck with your project!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Hartley18 said:


> Actually, you might be surprised to discover how old this set-up is. Quite a few designs from Giles and Stephens (to name two) had end-boom sheeting arrangements that went back along the boom - but I digress...
> 
> My only gripes with this set-up (and it's just personal preference, I suppose) are (a) that when you're not hard on the wind, the sheets hang from the bottom of the boom (see below) which could be a bit nasty in an accidental gybe - hmm, headless Alex? - and (b) having the mainsheets leave the mast and go down for the deck as they do, does make for one more obstacle if you need to go forward in a blow:
> 
> ..anyways, good luck with your project!


Headless Alex ? Headless Chicken ? AHA !! Headless PortuGeese.

They are the negatives yes, but we'll see. It was fine when we had the old Bluebird and just about bearable on the C28 but I'm not happy with the ratchet block setup we have now. Seems to me there are too many times when it becomes quite a struggle to release. Which of course is in a blow and she is desperately trying to round up and T-bone that ferry coming down the harbour. (Don't ask but yes , it did nearly happen once, albeit with the old rig and block. Scared the crap out of me I can tell you.)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TDW-

It wouldn't affect GUI much... his brains are far lower.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

Hi
Here in Europe this system is called "German sheeting", it can be used both with mid boom and end boom sheeting.

One some boats the two ends of the sheet are spliced into an endless loop, that way you will never run out of rope.

I have a similar setup on my Beneteu First 38 with mid boom sheeting, but I have a 1:4 purchase with 3 separate blocks on the boom and a fidle block on the traveller. The turning blocks are fixed with dyneema straps at the boom neck and the chainplate. 

Mast is already down for the winter but I can try to find /take some pictures.

This winter I'm planning to do an improvement to make single/short handling easier.

I will mount two clutches, one on each side of the cockpit near the aft winches. That way I can use the aft winches for both jib and main sheet.

Leeward winch for the jib, windward winch for the main.

That way I can operate both sheets from behind the wheel..


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

*Here in Europe this system is called "German sheeting", it can be used both with mid boom and end boom sheeting.*

This obviously makes it a FAR superior arangment to the designs of the rest of the world. We could not possibly have come up with something so masterful since we are all idiots by comparison!

Sorry, all those years of working for a German company kinda pushed me over the edge.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

Hi TC34
No offence, i'm not German. I'm from Norway. 

This setup has it pros & cons as other systems.

On my boat with mid boom sheeting the alternative would be the original setup with the main sheeted on a smaller winch on the coachroof.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Knut,

I'd be very interested see your pics when you get them. The clutch block in front of the sheet winches , which I've seen discussed before, seems like a damn good idea to me. OK so its commonly used for halyards where the lines come back to the cockpit but it would seem to make good sense for a sheet winch as well. Particularly on a cruising boat I would think. 

T34,

I am ready to stand corrected here but I have a feeling that this sheeting arrangement first came to prominence on a boat in the German Admiral's Cup team back in 19blahdeblah when the Germans were pretty much Numero Uno (whoops Nummer Eins) in European yacht racing.


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## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

Yep, Knuterikt is right. 
We also do call this arrangement German sheeting.
The major advantage is that you can fine trim the main on either side of the boat. While racing and sitting on winward rail you can always trim it using winward winch regardless of port or stbd. tack. 
This way you keep your weight on the correct side of the boat.
Extra appreciated on smaller boats or small crew.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I just had a thought that maybe the designer German Frers popularised it ?

Does anyone know ? This intrigues me.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

knuterikt said:


> Hi
> .....I will mount two clutches, one on each side of the cockpit near the aft winches. That way I can use the aft winches for both jib and main sheet.
> 
> Leeward winch for the jib, windward winch for the main.
> ...


This sounds interesting.. I'd be concerned if ever both ends were "clutched"... such setups have poor mechanical advantage tackle-wise (relying on the winch for power) and having to dump the mainsheet via clutch could be trouble.. but if only one end is clutched and the working end left winch only, it could work....

The only other concern I'd have would be a kink in the line coming off the winch jamming in the clutch when you're trying to dump the main in a hurry....


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Faster said:


> This sounds interesting.. I'd be concerned if ever both ends were "clutched"... such setups have poor mechanical advantage tackle-wise (relying on the winch for power) and having to dump the mainsheet via clutch could be trouble.. but if only one end is clutched and the working end left winch only, it could work....
> 
> The only other concern I'd have would be a kink in the line coming off the winch jamming in the clutch when you're trying to dump the main in a hurry....


hmmmm......good tinkin there F. I hadn't thought about the kinky problem but simply taking a turn on the winch should straighten it out , shouldn't it ?

Need to ponder this.....I really do like the sound of the basic system......certainly has to be better than the old ratchet block....


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

True, if you remember to keep that last turn on the winch that should take care of that concern.

TD, will you have a place/space on or near the coaming to actually locate the stopper where it will a) have an acceptable lead angle (both to the clutch, and between clutch and winch) b) be easily reached and operated and c) not be a literal PITA (ie screw up some coaming seating space??

From our experience it seems that the boat's cockpit needs to be designed with that sort of sheeting system in mind from the beginning, and may not be easily retrofitted.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

> Originally Posted by Faster
> This sounds interesting.. I'd be concerned if ever both ends were "clutched"... such setups have poor mechanical advantage tackle-wise (relying on the winch for power) and having to dump the mainsheet via clutch could be trouble.. but if only one end is clutched and the working end left winch only, it could work....
> 
> The only other concern I'd have would be a kink in the line coming off the winch jamming in the clutch when you're trying to dump the main in a hurry....


I have rigged the controll lines on my traveller so they can be released from the wheel. I think that releasing the controll line will do the job if I need to release power.

But it is also necessary to be able to adjust the main sheet rapidly in some cases.

In my current setup I have a cheek block to lead the sheet to the winch.
I have not had any incidents with fouled sheet with this configuration.

The problem with kinks will always be there when a rope has to pass through a block, clutch or something else, the key here is to keep the rope clear without kinks.

The sheet should never be clutched and tailed on the same side simultaneously, but I dont think using clutches only will be so bad.

I'm going to use Lewmar clutches - they can be used as a brake when releasing the rope, so you can controll the rope release without using the winch.

Sailing season is over for me, boat on the hard and mast down for some modifications - so i will not be able to report on the practical use before next summer. But I have seen this setup on several boats and is quite confident that it will work.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Faster said:


> True, if you remember to keep that last turn on the winch that should take care of that concern.
> 
> TD, will you have a place/space on or near the coaming to actually locate the stopper where it will a) have an acceptable lead angle (both to the clutch, and between clutch and winch) b) be easily reached and operated and c) not be a literal PITA (ie screw up some coaming seating space??
> 
> From our experience it seems that the boat's cockpit needs to be designed with that sort of sheeting system in mind from the beginning, and may not be easily retrofitted.


The flaw in my logic could be in the remembering.......

Too true re the lead angle from the clutch to the winch. This is a very recent concept to me so I'm still very much in planning stage but remember that the Womboat is steel. Fabricating something on which to mount the clutch would not be difficult and I have easy access under that part of the deck or coaming for attachments.

I need to add at least two new winches to the old girl as it is so if I have a problem it will be space for winches.

Provided weather holds I'll be on board tomorrow. Will have a good look then.

Knut - It may well be that I get this done before your winter is over. I'll keep you informed of my progress.

ps - ref the German or Admiral's Cup system.....word is that it was a German boat called Pinta. Not confirmed.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

That 40 footer is off the table, then? You're sticking with the steel beastie for now? (I recall it's 34-35 feet or something, which is about as compact as you want in steel).


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## zz4gta (Aug 15, 2007)

Why not add a cascade or 2 speed mainsheet system. It's gotta be cheaper than adding 2 winches and clutches.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Valiente said:


> That 40 footer is off the table, then? You're sticking with the steel beastie for now? (I recall it's 34-35 feet or something, which is about as compact as you want in steel).


40'er is dead and buried. Too many things kept turning up until the final cost of the thing would have been absurd compared to what we could have bought in the US.

Ironically, having made the decision to look US the OZ dollar promptly collapsed and the two boats we were looking at shot up by many tens of thousands due to the exchange rate variation. Sadly, a largish chunk of our retirment funds are invested in stocks and shares so we are also not quite as well off as we were a few months ago. Thankfully we transferred a goodly lump into cash earlier this year so its not all doom and gloom.

The Wombette and I then decided that we would take a breather from the boat buying market for a year or two or until the Oz dollar recovers.

The current Womboat is 34'. Working on a 2009 buggering off point we have a boat that is sound, a relatively good performer and just, but only just, big enough for us.

The alterations and updates we are going to do are relatively minor and in the main making her easier to sail, single or double handed, and more self sufficient in power system and food storage capacity.

ZZ - Purchase is not really the problem and if I needed more I could simply go to 8:1 instead of 6:1. Only real problem with 8:1 is the amount of line flopping about in the cockpit . I don't have any great problem hauling the main with 6:1. The problem I do have is releasing the damn thing. (edited )

To be honest, it is more a problem of traveller position than anything else. The Womboats traveller runs across the cockpit just forward of the wheel. For the helmsman to release the main sheet you are required to lean over the pedestal and reach down to the block. It's simply not a good way of doing it and I'm looking to figure how best to overcome the problem.

I'll try and take a couple of shots of what is there now and post later today.

edited - cocked up the ratios. Thanks to HArken website, this is effectively what we have now...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

W - have a look at these:

*Welcome to the Spinlock Website | www.spinlock.co.uk*

Friends swear by their ability to easily release under load.. perhaps you can retrofit one of these on your mainsheet block.. sorry about the corrupted link...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Wombat-

Have you looked at something like this:










The Nash Trigger cleat has a unique mechanism that allows you to release highly loaded lines with complete control. Pulling the sheet down on the trigger trips the pawls and frees the sheet. The trigger serves as a snubbing surface to control release.

In light air, or once the trigger releases the load, the cleat operates like a normal cam cleat. The Trigger cleat is constructed of rugged stainless steel. It is very reliable in heavy air. Trigger cleats are ideal on highly loaded systems like mainsheets, vangs, and even for some halyards. They have developed a cult-like following in some classes where the crew loves the ability to spill the mainsail reliably during close-quarters maneuvering.

Sailnet can probably get them, but I didn't find them on the Sailnet store. Mauri Pro Sailing does have *them*.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

tdw
I promised you some pictures, here they are.

This picture is taken through the sprayhood (dodger?)









Here is a picture of the lead at the turnbuckle.
The turning blocks at boom neck and chainplate are fastened with dyneema loops. A piece of chock cord is used to lift the lower blocks when there is no sheet load.









Main sheet winch and cheek block









Testing out lead for new configuration, this change will probably also involve switching position of the winches. With this setup both sheets (main & jib) can be handled from the wheel.









I know that a lot of boats with this configuration has 1:2 purchase on the main sheet = faster sheeting if winches give enough purchase. If you have a large crew both winches can be used simultaneously to sheet the main (if you use other winches for the jib)


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Hey look, thanks for all that. I've been a little bit out of the loop this week and have only just noticed the updates. Much appreciated.

Knut..thanks for the pics.

SD....I think that is what we have already. The problem is the positioning I think. Must play. 

Faster...I've used the spinlock thing on another boat and I found it a pain in tha bum but maybe that was simply lack of familiarity.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Good enuf... keep us posted fuzzy.


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