# So, you're thinking of chartering



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

So, you're thinking of chartering to earn a little extra money or fill the cruising kitty?
Today, we had a drop off at 3:30PM and around 25 miles to go as the crow flies (around West Cay), to get to Port Elizabeth from Canouan.
Normally, it's about a 4 hour trip, hard on the wind in 15 to 20 knots. Not today!
NE wind, with the course to steer to West Cay @ 40 degrees, and the max gust at 37.2 knots averaging around 28, it was a nightmare. Seas ran to 5 at least meters in "the washing machine" north of Canouan, but after that, the seas did go down to 3 to 4 meters, thankfully.
There are no 'weather windows' when you are on charter, and you are going to have to beat the crap out of your boat now and then. You don't like it, your guests don't like it and your boat sure won't appreciate it!
I believe there are a lot easier ways to earn a little extra money or fill up the cruising kitty.


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## Loki9 (Jun 15, 2011)

It's 28F outside here, my boat is on the hard until April, and I'm having trouble working up any sympathy for you.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I'll hand it to you. We see private charter boats all the time and there is no way we would want to do that. Schedules, clumsy or stupid guests, needing to keep on the happy face constantly, etc - it takes a special person to do that job. A bit touched, even... 

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

In bthe Caribe the wind direction is reasonably predictable. Why not plan charters to begin sailing upwind and then its a downwind sail back to drop off?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SanderO said:


> In bthe Caribe the wind direction is reasonably predictable. Why not plan charters to begin sailing upwind and then its a downwind sail back to drop off?


Ya think? Now why didn't I think of that? 
Oh, what a wonderful world we would live in if Trump wasn't president and charter brokers booked trips according to the wind.
I've communicated this fact to our broker, as has at least one other captain of theirs, and a number of passengers, apparently. They say they understand, but things don't change. Go figure.
I may make a few waves around sailnet, but I'm sure not going to make any with the broker who gave us 17 charters last year, in a less than stellar world economy.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

colemj said:


> I'll hand it to you. We see private charter boats all the time and there is no way we would want to do that. Schedules, clumsy or stupid guests, needing to keep on the happy face constantly, etc - it takes a special person to do that job. A bit touched, even...
> 
> Mark


And lotsha rummmmmmmmmm......................lol


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Loki9 said:


> It's 28F outside here, my boat is on the hard until April, and I'm having trouble working up any sympathy for you.


If not sympathy for us, how about our boat?
Anyway, it wasn't about sympathy or complaint, but a head's up to those who are thinking that chartering might be a solution to their money woes.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Capta

My hats off to you. I don't like to go for a 2 hour daysail with people I don't like. It takes a special personality to do this for a week at a time with a smile on your face.

When we charter in your neighborhood we pay someone else to take the boat back north. The fees seem exorbitant that the usual charter companies charge for this, until you are happily reaching S, and you see a boat going the other direction.


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

Would you rather be doing something else to earn a living?


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

capta said:


> If not sympathy for us, how about our boat?
> Anyway, it wasn't about sympathy or complaint, but a head's up to those who are thinking that chartering might be a solution to their money woes.


Certainly did not sound like a fun transit. When we charter it is always on a Catamaran (my gals preference) at some point we have to deal with motoring into some headwinds. I am always amazed that even with only three foot waves how rougn it is on the boat. The waves smash under the bridgedeck with a bang and I'm watching the the whole dining room table shake and shudder. I keep thinking somewhere there is some fiberglass laminate that is cracking and I'm glad I don't own the boat. Captain seems to take it in stride but, he doesn't see what I'm seeing. I'm glad to have my monohull it would be bouncy but, none of that banging going on.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

When young I worked as a lifeguard and ski patrol, it taught me that nothing takes the fun out of something like having to do it everyday, rain or shine, to a schedule.


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## Loki9 (Jun 15, 2011)

The fastest way to ruin your hobby is to make it your job.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

mbianka said:


> Certainly did not sound like a fun transit. When we charter it is always on a Catamaran (my gals preference) at some point we have to deal with motoring into some headwinds. I am always amazed that even with only three foot waves how rougn it is on the boat. The waves smash under the bridgedeck with a bang and I'm watching the the whole dining room table shake and shudder. I keep thinking somewhere there is some fiberglass laminate that is cracking and I'm glad I don't own the boat. Captain seems to take it in stride but, he doesn't see what I'm seeing. I'm glad to have my monohull it would be bouncy but, none of that banging going on.


I've always had a suspicion that the bridge deck, as you call it, was taking quite a beating and could be pretty noisy on those cats that have only a foot or so of clearance from the water. It seems the better performing cats have a lot more space between the water and the bridge deck.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I fully agree with the premise of the OP, but why do you do it?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

capecodda said:


> Capta
> 
> My hats off to you. I don't like to go for a 2 hour daysail with people I don't like. It takes a special personality to do this for a week at a time with a smile on your face.
> 
> When we charter in your neighborhood we pay someone else to take the boat back north. The fees seem exorbitant that the usual charter companies charge for this, until you are happily reaching S, and you see a boat going the other direction.


Actually we've been amazingly lucky on that score. We've only had 3 particularly difficult passengers in three seasons of charter, here. I certainly can't say the same of the big bucks charters I used to run in the Caribbean and Med in the 70's and 80's.
The direction means little to us, as we have to go anyway, but it's the enjoyment of our passengers we are concerned about.


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

capta said:


> I've always had a suspicion that the bridge deck, as you call it, was taking quite a beating and could be pretty noisy on those cats that have only a foot or so of clearance from the water. It seems the better performing cats have a lot more space between the water and the bridge deck.


True the higher the better. But, I've yet to be on one that did not bang and vibrate in even fairly small seas. Speaking of locations on Cats. I take note of where some designs locate their cabin hatches. The sloshing is calming yet scary on some of them when underway. 
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: A vacation escape?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

mbianka said:


> True the higher the better. But, I've yet to be on one that did not bang and vibrate in even fairly small seas. Speaking of locations on Cats. I take note of where some designs locate their cabin hatches. The sloshing is calming yet scary on some of them when underway.
> THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: A vacation escape?


YIPES! and only two plastic dogs to secure the hatch.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Can they be safety locked...so a child could not open...or some flying object not knock a latch loose?


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

Arcb said:


> YIPES! and only two plastic dogs to secure the hatch.


Yep. I worry about a large piece of wood or log sliding down the hull until it snags on the hatch. Call me crazy but, hatches close to the waterline seem risky. Especially at night when you can't always see the debris in the water. If I was a charter Captain I'd keep a close eye on any kids whose curosity might get the better of them too.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Arcb said:


> YIPES! and only two plastic dogs to secure the hatch.


I watched the Distant Shores vid on their Atlantic crossing in a Cat. They had one of these plastic dogs come loose on the escape hatch, while underway. It only resulted in leaking, but boy did it look cheap for something facing down at the water. :eek

I hope those latches are two motion...... i.e. require the press of a button, plus a turn, to open.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

mbianka said:


> Yep. I worry about a large piece of wood or log sliding down the hull until it snags on the hatch......


Or the loud guy at the beach bar in the anchorage...who you offended.....


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Open that when turtled and you lost a lot of valuable air....really fast


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Story about hatches. I was crewing on a charter on a boat with opening ports below the main deck. Solid boat, 72 feet steel mono. She had a bunch of small bronze opening ports along both sides which could be opened for air ventilation at dock or anchor. They were proper round portlights with 4 bronze dogs each. We were sailing on a starboard tack, like really sailing, rail buried. We had about a dozen guests on board. After the sails were up, the Captain asked me to go below and take a look around to see that everything was good.

One of the opening ports had been left open, like wide open. Its hard to describe the water coming in, it was like a low pressure 8 inch fire hose filling the boat. I was able to half close the port but couldn't get a good seal. I ran up on deck to tell the Captain, I cant remember my exact words, but I used my outside voice, I was quite inexperienced at the time. I can still see the Captains face turn red as he turned up to the wind and quietly told me to keep my voice down- there were guests on board. Once rounded up he sent me back below to close the portlight. 

The water ingress was no big deal, but I learned a lesson I will never forget. Damage control, guests on board, keep your voice down, don't alarm the passengers.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Story about making a hatch,,,31' tri 2 men and a dog. Hanging on a sea anchor (bridled) North of Vancouver Island dead of winter. Bridle chafed, vessel swung beam on and overturned on a breaking waveface. Still hanging on but wrong side up, they cut a hatch with axe in the hull. built bunks up above the new waterline and survived several weeks until a fish boat happened by. Unfortunately they had hacked the hole on the wave ward side so it was not the most comfortable interlude. but boat still made a pretty good life raft.


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

Arcb

I understand the sentiment but people have died because the crew didn't want to 'alarm' them...until it was too late.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Arch,, The Pathfinder? See she's for sale If you're hankering to get into the charter biz.


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## Davy J (Mar 25, 2017)

> Oh, what a wonderful world we would live in if Trump wasn't president and charter brokers booked trips according to the wind.


Good god, can't you people keep your BS out of a sailing forum..................


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Yes ,time passes. Where is there another Alan Villiers when needed to accept the bell's lanyard when offered ?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Capt Len said:


> Story about making a hatch,,,31' tri 2 men and a dog. Hanging on a sea anchor (bridled) North of Vancouver Island dead of winter. Bridle chafed, vessel swung beam on and overturned on a breaking waveface. Still hanging on but wrong side up, they cut a hatch with axe in the hull. built bunks up above the new waterline and survived several weeks until a fish boat happened by. Unfortunately they had hacked the hole on the wave ward side so it was not the most comfortable interlude. but boat still made a pretty good life raft.


After capsizing a monohull 3 times in a hurricane in the SoPac, a 37' plywood tri that wouldn't sink if holed in all three hulls, or upside down, looked pretty good to me! Ended up being the best cruising boat I've ever seen or sailed, *if* one could live w/her 2200 pound payload capacity over the boat weight including fuel, propane & water.


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## sailforlife (Sep 14, 2016)

I would like to charter but I know I have a lot to learn......

I don't want a regular 9 to 5 jobs those suck.

:captain::captain:


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I will never, repeat never, charge anyone for doing something I enjoying doing for myself. A job is never a sport, nor a hobby. It's work. 

I would consider investing in a boat that was used for charter, with a paid crew only. I just don't see it as a money maker. At best, it could defray costs, but it still sounds like a bad idea.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Horses,beggars and riders? Sometime you have to know difference between sucking and blowing On the way to here I found I enjoyed changing engines in boats. Sort of challenging and lucrative too. My efforts paid off. tried all kinds of charter too. My day charter was a winner but I could packon 18 grackles.Results may vary but negative choices rarely 'work' as planned.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Capt Len said:


> ....I could packon 18 grackles.....


Ok, that's good stuff and all, but what in the hell is a grackle?


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Grackle is a bluenose term for the noisy unruly birds perched out on the pier. (Substitute tourists ) Out on this coast I considered it sheep and goats wandering the slips. Goats just ate up my brochures but the sheep, they could be shorn (Just kidding, when it was time to make the donuts.)


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## mbianka (Sep 19, 2014)

sailforlife said:


> I would like to charter but I know I have a lot to learn......
> 
> I don't want a regular 9 to 5 jobs those suck.
> 
> :captain::captain:


Talk to somebody who has done it or sign on as crew. I have heard a lot of stories from our charter Captains and have a few of my own. We once chartered a Captained monohull out of Miami to take us down the Keys for some snorkeling. The Captain sailed alone. No crew. He did everything. The afternoon before we were to leave a big powerboat backs out of slip across the way and smashes into his inflatable damaging the outboard and dingy. Captain had to scramble to get a replacement as well as do everything else he had to get ready for our charter. He did and we left on time the next day. Stuff like that can make a having charter business "interesting".


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> I fully agree with the premise of the OP, but why do you do it?


Because we are having a ball. We are making a lot of good friends we would never have met any other way. We now have invites to stay with these new friends all over Europe, and get to know the big cities or small towns they live in, with them. Some have even offered us their second car to go exploring while we are there, and one couple offered to let us use their 35' Bene in Croatia, for a month one summer.
Sure the weather is sometimes a downer for us, but it is overshadowed by taking folks who have never sailed, to wonderful places they could never have seen any other way, and giving them a great vacation. And most do have a good time, as they don't know any different, weather wise.
It may be our profession, but we enjoy it, therefor it isn't a job. It doesn't ruin the pleasure of a good sail, just because we have guests on the boat. And if you could see the delight on the faces of these people when the dolphins are playing alongside, or when a turtle pops up alongside in an anchorage, or when Skipping Stone is sailing on rails at 8 to 9 knots, steady as a train. Or catching a dolphin or tuna, even a barracuda, which is served just hours later to folks who have never had really fresh fish before!
It isn't even about the money so much, though we don't mind doubling our annual income, while having a ball. 
We don't have to support our boat, she does that. Of course, we have more expenses and break downs, but it isn't a big deal if you've got the extra money from chartering. An $800.00 air freight bill for a new refer compressor would hurt w/o the charter income. 
We are extremely lucky. We've fallen into a small, very pleasant niche, mostly sailing in the Grenadines, doing 3 night, 4 day charters. It certainly doesn't blow 37 knots on every trip, but we've definitely got the right old girl if we do encounter those conditions. And we love having a schedule, with someplace to be at a specific time. I tried retirement and it just didn't suit me. Remember, I got to do my circumnavigation in my 20's, in a much more peaceful and less dangerous world. The biggest danger we faced in The Sudan was from the goats, who really didn't appreciate our getting too close when they were eating. Do you think any of us would go there today? Or Saudi Arabia? Or Egypt, or Morocco? Probably not, on an American flagged vessel, anyway.
I've been doing this, in one form or another, all my life since I was a teen, and quite frankly, I'm not tired of messing about with boats yet. I couldn't imagine myself in a cubical or suit and tie (I don't own either; never have). I'm sure the daily commute would kill me. I love a sky that goes from horizon to horizon, unfettered by buildings, telephone poles and wires, street lights on arcing poles or the pollution of our cities. The noise of civilization would surely drive me insane.
I don't put down those people who live that life, but I guess I just wasn't cut out for it. This suits me just fine. Most of the time, and I think that's about all one can ask for from life.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

capta said:


> Ya think? Now why didn't I think of that?
> Oh, what a wonderful world we would live in if Trump wasn't president and charter brokers booked trips according to the wind.
> I've communicated this fact to our broker, as has at least one other captain of theirs, and a number of passengers, apparently. They say they understand, but things don't change. Go figure.
> I may make a few waves around sailnet, but I'm sure not going to make any with the broker who gave us 17 charters last year, in a less than stellar world economy.


OK... please explain... who decides where you sail and when? I suppose if the frequently chosen destinations are down wind of your home base it will be a beat getting home. I get it. Can you select a home base which gives you more flexibility of destinations?


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SanderO said:


> OK... please explain... who decides where you sail and when? I suppose if the frequently chosen destinations are down wind of your home base it will be a beat getting home. I get it. Can you select a home base which gives you more flexibility of destinations?


Once the guests have settled on board, we ask them what they want from the charter. Snorkeling, hiking, visiting towns, sailing, etc. From that we set an itinerary to suit their wishes. We had one couple who seemed uninterested in any of it, and as we sailed from Bequia, it came out that they traveled a lot and the number of countries they visited was always popping up. So I suggested that we try and get them as many islands as we could in 4 days. They were overjoyed to be boots dry on 13 islands on the trip.
At the moment we base ourselves in Carriacou as it is where we pick up most often, and it has fairly good internet and a brand new supermarket, yes, I said supermarket, which makes provisioning much easier.
The booking agent sets the pick up and drop off dates and times. Any charters booked through the website are open to the customer's desires, though we will suggest a route. However, we try not to pickup in Grenada if at all possible, as the trip north to Carriacou can be a long difficult sail, preferring to meet our guests in Carriacou, giving them more days in the Grenadines. The ferry is a swift 2.5 hours versus a 5 to 8 hour beat.
We'd much rather beat back to "home base" than beat to a destination w/guests because, after all, it is their enjoyment that is most important to us.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Capta.... interesting... This is not how I would choose to "live/sail? but it does beat commuting in the cold north to a cubicle in a high rise. 

So your guests are OK / prefer a long beat home to one exciting one at the start?

When Islands are 50 or so miles apart... you would have to spend a lot of a day to get from one island to another... leaving not much time to visit the island on a sailing day.

When I lived/cruised in the islands the island to island trip WAS a day's activity... followed by a week or more anchored to enable visiting the island. I suppose time use is very different on term charters. And that makes perfect sense.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SanderO said:


> Capta.... interesting... This is not how I would choose to "live/sail? but it does beat commuting in the cold north to a cubicle in a high rise.
> 
> So your guests are OK / prefer a long beat home to one exciting one at the start?
> 
> ...


I think you misunderstand. We sail From Carriacou to Bequia or Young Island, *one way*. As I said, we have fallen into a small, unique situation and do not often have to retrace our steps to disembark our passengers at the same location we pick them up from. That gives us 4 days to cruise less than 40 miles! As I also stated, most who sail with us are not sailors, or boating people at all, so the sailing is not their prime motivation for the cruise. It is solely a mode of travel that will allow them to visit places that are difficult to reach any other way.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

capta said:


> I think you misunderstand.


yes I did misunderstand... I apologize.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SanderO said:


> yes I did misunderstand... I apologize.


No need to apologize. 
That's why our prices may seem so low. We know it costs much more to book flights that way and we also take into account that our guests may need to stay in a hotel for a day or so on either end to make their flights.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

What we have here is a problem in communication. 

Tell the nice broker that the bad news is, you are raising your rates by 10%. The good news is, you are offering a 15% discount to all guests booking a DOWNWIND charter.

Problem solved, you'll be earning a little less but they'll all be opting for the 15% discount.


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