# No Survey - No Deal!



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I would like your opinions on the following situation;

A broker has shown me a boat that I am interested in. The boat needs a bottom job, and has minimal equipment, and 26 year old standing rigging. It does have a new motor, and cushions (that I don't particularly like). The asking price is in the middle of asking prices for similar boats.

I placed an offer on a boat @ 80% of asking price, justifying my bid by pointing out the need for standing rigging, and the bottom job. the seller countered at 90% of asking price, with the stipulation that the sale is NOT subject to renegotiation if any issues are found by a professional surveyor. I upped my offer to 83% of asking price, and again stating that 26 year old rigging on a salt water boat is not acceptable. The broker says that the seller will not budge, and that the rigging is fine.

I told him that I appreciated his effort, but that I cannot accept the seller's terms.

He replied (in email); "Let's be frank, his offer to you ... is a screaming deal, and I can't understand why you are not happy and excited about it."

Does anyone here think I'm being unreasonable?

Please - let me have it!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I wouldn't do it. "Screaming deal" or not - that stipulation is ridiculous....if not suspicious.


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

I'm with Smacky on "suspicious." Its a buyer's market right now so you can afford to walk away ... er, run? ... What's the seller hiding???


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Thanks Smack! and Eryka!! Wow - you are FAST!

Oh, I made a mistake in my math. My initial offer was at 78%, not 80%, of asking.


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

survey as usual with your ability to walk at any time during YOUR survey, and still get your deposit back..

I passed on a Gemini two years ago, with the same condition - as is, where is, no survey and no haulout. The owner "said" everything was fine..No regrets.

Survey or walk, no - run...regardless of how the broker presents it, and BTW the broker should know better....if it is such a "screaming deal" why doesn't the broker buy it and then let you survey it and pass title if your surveyor passes it....I doubt your broker is THAT certain...


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

kd3pc said:


> The owner "said" everything was fine..


Yes, the broker has said much the same thing.

Here, in fact, is how he communicated the no survey clause; "All the gear worked at the end of last year and you can have it surveyed, but the seller is not offerring any warranty. It is up to the buyer or his agents to determine condition."


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

When we bought Raven the offer finally accepted by the seller was subject to survey but with the agreement that faults under a certain dollar value (from memory $1000) did not count. 

That gave us an out if surveyer found a major structural fault in hull, engine or rigging but did not allow us to bail over a few quibbling details. 

If your seller will not agree to those terms then it is pretty obvious they are trying to hide a serious fault.


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## johnnyandjebus (Sep 15, 2009)

If I read the orginal post correctly the seller is stating that he will not renegotiate regardless of what the survey says. Basiclly he appears to be unwilling to except less than x$ period full stop. Nothing wrong with that.
With that said no way would I put a deposit down on any boat without a survey,particullary in this situation. 

To a certain extent I could argue that the seller is doing you a favour, you now know up front what his bottom line price is, If you feel that a survey might show needed work and therefore needed $'s perhaps it is time to walk before you spend the dollars on a survey. Which would be wasted money if the selling price can not be adjusted according to the report.

Am I reading the orginal post incorrectly?

John


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

johnnyandjebus said:


> If I read teh orginal post correctly the seller is stating that he will not renegotiate regardless of what the survey says. Basiclly he appears to be unwilling to except less than x$ period full stop.


That is correct



johnnyandjebus said:


> Nothing wrong with that.
> With that said no way would I put a deposit down on any boat without a survey,particullary in this situation.


This strikes ME as unusual. I have never purchased a boat before, but I have worked with several brokers. My understanding of the process is:

See boat
Place offer to buy with 10% deposit
Have boat surveyed
If issues found, renegotiate or cancel transaction
If no/minor issues, close sale
Much like buying a house



johnnyandjebus said:


> To a certain extent I could argue that the seller is doing you a favour, you now know up front what his bottom line price is, If you feel that a survey might show needed work and therefore needed $'s perhaps it is time to walk before you spend the dollars on survey. Which would be wasted money if the selling price can not be adjusted according to the report.


I agree - no survey will be necessary on this boat.


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## JimHawkins (Aug 25, 2006)

The seller is doing you a favor. They are telling you they are not going any lower. If you think the boat is worth what you offered, proceed with a survey. If the survey reveals additional defects you will then cancel the contract and get your deposit back. If the survey tells you the boat is in the condition you think it's in, the you will continue with the purchase.

If you are planning on getting the survey and then using what ever is found as ammunition to make a lower bid, the seller is telling you "Don't bother".

But really, the seller is just upset about selling the boat and upset at the price he's going to get for his boat. You just pushed his buttons.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

JimHawkins said:


> But really, the seller is just upset about selling the boat and upset at the price he's going to get for his boat. You just pushed his buttons.


Well in this case, the seller is upset about the price that he's *NOT* getting for his boat.

Funny, but I thought that 83% of asking for was a good offer... I don't want to share specific numbers, but there were boats that sold above and below the prices that we're talking about.

In my initial offer I told the broker that the boat needs new standing rigging; it should have been replaced 10 years ago. The 26 year old roller furler is original as well. The Genoa is original. And the bottom needs to be faired and repainted. I took all of these issues into account when I placed my original offer.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Different take:

Having Bought and sold several boats here is my take on the deal.

And Up front I Think the broker is just not communicating very well and sort of being a jerk to boot...that email was out of line IMHO.

1)OK Seller lists boat.
2) Conditions of listing
3) Survey all you want but Im nit going any lower ( Fair that he told you up front)
4) So after your survey its a take it or leave it price.


Thats how i see this deal..and the Broker is not doing the seller or buyer any favors by hard lining everything...a simple polite discussion is all that's needed here.

I just sold a boat that appraised for 23,500.00 for 7K...I don't care what they found wrong with it ..At that price I sold it as is...where is..

Yes its a buyers market but that doesn't mean a seller has to take all comers if he doesn't have to.

I think you are looking at this from the wrong slant due to the Broker sort of being a jerk....Look at it as...he is doing you a favor by saving you the expense of a survey if you feel the bopat is over priced and worried about what else you find wrong that you expect him to cough up for...Im not saying the boat is worth what hes asking...all Im saying is he gave you his bottom price right up front with no room for further negotiation...its up to you BEFORE or AFTER your survey to decide if you can live with that figure or not..If not then walk...Nothing unreasonable about that at all.

If Im reading the OP's post wrong and you are locked into buying the boat if you go forth with a survy...I would walk from the get go...I would never ask anyone to buy my boat that way nor would i buy any other boat that way....ALWAYS...leave yourself an out for walking away.


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## fjon (Apr 12, 2009)

fwiw. It IS a buyers market. Many folks need to sell. I believe that will only increase in the intermediate term. If you have patience, and see a boat you like that has been on the market a long while, you can get a good deal. I just bought a boat. I saw it on the net, in Mexico, with good specs and pics. It had been on offer for 18 months. I offered 60%. The owner countered with 75% of ask. I went up a few thou and the owner countered saying he could not let it go for less than the 75% offer. I waited a week and still wanted the boat, so I agreed to his price. I expected the survey to turn up a bunch of problems, but the boat was in very good shape and the strongest sea boat I'd see in over a year of looking. 

I would not agree to the seller/broker's terms. I would walk. There are a ton of boats on offer and, if you're patient, you can find that 1 out of 100 that is what you want in good shape.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

eherlihy said:


> I would like your opinions on the following situation;
> 
> A broker has shown me a boat that I am interested in. The boat needs a bottom job, and has minimal equipment, and 26 year old standing rigging. It does have a new motor, and cushions (that I don't particularly like). The asking price is in the middle of asking prices for similar boats.
> 
> ...


E,

If that is his rock bottom that is his rock bottom. I think what he is saying is that if he accepts a 83%, there are no other discounts even if you find other items. You're haggling over a 2k standing rigging job.

You KNOW the price, I would NOT take offense to this as the owner has his bottom and you've touched it, but regardless you should ALWAYS survey it. You are in the drivers seat and can walk at any time all your out is a few hundred bucks. Unless the decks are total mush this boat is a likely a good deal.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Stillraining said:


> I think you are looking at this from the wrong slant due to the Broker sort of being a jerk....Look at it as...he is doing you a favor by saving you the expense of a survey if you find some things wrong you expect him to cough up for...Im not saying the boat is worth what hes asking...all Im saying is he gave you his bottom price right up front with no room for further negotiation...its up to you AFTER your survey to decide if you can live with that figure or not...Nothing unreasonable about that at all.


Yes, the broker is getting under my skin. Yes, he actually DID save me money, once I figured out what he meant by "the seller is not offering any warranty..."


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

eherlihy said:


> Yes, the broker is getting under my skin. Yes, he actually DID save me money, once I figured out what he meant by "the seller is not offering any warranty..."


I think it is typical for the seller to not offer any warranties. Boat contracts seem to always have that as boilerplate. You hire a surveyor to find problems that might be deal-killers, and after you take possession you're on your own. That's pretty normal.



eherlihy said:


> ...In my initial offer I told the broker that the boat needs new standing rigging; it should have been replaced 10 years ago. The 26 year old roller furler is original as well. The Genoa is original. And the bottom needs to be faired and repainted. I took all of these issues into account when I placed my original offer.


Since you took all these into account in your offering price, it's natural for the seller to want to protect himself against further reductions when the surveyor finds the same things. It sounds like the seller is simply saying he's come down as far as he is willing to, and any survey will simply be for a go/no-go decision. No haggling over price after the survey. He's doing you a favor by being up front. If you're worried about not getting your deposit money back, ask to have the survey done before you sign a contract and give a deposit. Then you can really walk away with no worries.

You need to understand that the process of negotiating a price is about the most stressful part of buying a boat. You and the seller have exactly opposite objectives around price. You need to try to see the transaction from the other guy's point of view. It sounds like you've been shopping around for quite awhile and have had several negotiations fall through. You need to be careful to not let frustration get in your way, and make an honest assessment of the deal you're getting. If the price is a fair one, the boat will go to another buyer in a reasonable time, so you had better move on it. If the price is not fair, you have nothing to worry about and can come back later if you want.


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## jordanship (Jun 15, 2009)

First of all this is pretty common to have "no renogiation after survey clause." It is almost standard procedure. As *tdw* said above, the best option would be to put in a dollar amount. Any problems found above this number are renegotiable. For instance, if you set a $1,000 dollar ceiling, then if the boat needs a $6,000 blister job, this is fair game for renegotiation. If the $100 chartplotter does not function, you cannot renegotiate. The seller should agree to some dollar amount.


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## Ulladh (Jul 12, 2007)

This looks like a simple "as is" transaction.
Seller has a number they will not go below.
Buyer has responsibility for due dilgence.
Buyer makes an offer based on survey and research on preliminary costs to get the boat to their desired condition.
Seller has responsibility to provide access for due diligence, and clean unencumbered title.
Personality defects of the seller or broker are not the buyers problem.


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

I see two possibilities: (1) There are problems that the seller is aware of, and has factored into the price. If the seller states these at the outset, then there's nothing to discuss if they also come up in the survey. And yeah, okay, the seller doesn't want to get nickel and dimed over minor stuff. But case (2) There are problems that the seller is not yet aware of. These would not have been factored into the price. For example, the gear that was "operational at the end of last season." So the boat is represented as having a whozmafrazzit radar/chartplotter in working condition and the price reflects that. You do a survey and discover that the whozmafrazzit is broken. Now the seller is saying, I don't care, price without the whozmafrazzit is going to be the same as the price I established when I thought the whozmafrazzit worked??!! I guess that's why I recommended walking away.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. I am always amazed with the level of support, and quality of opinions shared in SailNet (even Smacky - sometimes).

Here is where this stands at this moment:

I extended my original 78% asking price offer on this boat (I included an expiration date with my offer)
That offer included a 10% deposit (which I know is the broker's commission)
The seller countered through the broker
I offered to meet the seller half way (83% of asking), with justification for why
The broker indicated that the above offer was the bottom line price 
I thanked the broker for his time, but indicated that I cannot accept the seller's terms
I received two emails from the broker, one of which was his "screaming deal" email
My original offer expires tonight 
Tomorrow is predicted to be a sunny day, and I plan to visit a local yacht dealer with the admiral. They have a different make boat (lower quality reputation) of the same size with several of the issues that I have raised already addressed. This other boat, while not as nice, is listed at 60% of the boat that prompted this thread's asking price.

Also, I am sorry to have to resort to using nebulous terms and prices. I am trying to protect the broker's, and the seller's interests (as I have done when posting about other prospective deals), and it takes some effort on my part to protect the guilty. (I am not analyzing this beforehand with a spreadsheet and a slide rule. Rather I am going back through my notes and using a calculator to shield the parties involved.) If you have knowledge of, or can figure out, the specifics, please don't share them here. That is what PMs are for.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Seems that you have already gotten the replies you need eherlihy, so I will just say that my opinions are in line with Maines. I also do not mind paying a premium in any market for a very well taken care of boat and believe that those boats, in any market, will always be hard to find with little negotiation.

I am not saying this is one of those boats. I am only saying that that is what I would look for and expect to pay more. Might cost you less in the long run. 

Good luck with it all and let us know how it turns out.

See ya,

Brian


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Sounds like you need to decide which boat you really want - a nicer boat with better quality reputation for more money, or a less-nice boat with some issues taken care of for less money. If you're looking to play one off the other, or "posture" your way into an acceptance, you may be in for more disappointment.

Regardless, I sense that you need to figure out how to get "over the hump" of tense, failed negotiations with sellers. The way things are going, you are saving a lot of money by taking 1 year+ to find a boat - not so much by getting a better price, but by not having a boat to maintain and store. In this context, a few thousand dollars more isn't a big deal if it gets you on the water in June instead of in October.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

As a practical matter, you can sometimes renegotiate after survey, even if the contract says something else. Suppose the survey picks something up that buyer, seller, and broker were not previously aware of. After the frustration is past, the seller may realize that his boat is now worth $5000 less than he thought it was, and he's going to have to do $5000 of work on the boat to fix it, or accept the fact that every other buyer/surveyor that comes along will discover the same thing and adjust his offer accordingly.

The contract does not give you the "right" to renegotiate, but under circumstances like this example, it is possible the seller might realize it's in his best interest to negotiate rather than let you walk. OTOH, he has the right to refuse to accept your counter if he chooses - but that's still pretty much the case no matter what the contract says.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have to agree with Maine Sail- I am not sure that I see the issue here. As it sounds to me: 

-You think that the boat is worth less than the seller thinks it worth. 
-The seller has countered with the lowest amount that he is willing accept for the boat, regardless of what is found in survey. 
-At least the seller is warning you up front that no matter what you find in survey he will not reduce the price any further so you are proceeding at your own risk.
-The Broker is trying to sell you on the deal which is for better or worse is his job as a salesman. 
-There is an understanding when you look at an older boat, that a certain amount of wear and tear, and deferred long term maintenance is already calculated in the price. Items like out of date rigging impacts the fair market value of the boat relative to the same model boat which has had its rigging replaced, but if you are looking at the average sales price of some model, it is reasonable to assume that on average boat of that model and era will be on average in the same condition as the boat in question. 

If that is too expensive for your budget, then of course you will need to set your sights a little lower. 

Jeff


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Jeff_H said:


> -The Broker is trying to sell you on the deal which is for better or worse is his job as a salesman.


Another aspect of his job is to get the highest selling price possible. He knows from another offer that I extended through him that I have made a higher offer - on a better equipped, better overall condition, boat.

He worked VERY had to get me to place an offer on this boat. He admitted that he was pushing me in one of his numerous emails. His last email was downright annoying. 


Jeff_H said:


> If that is too expensive for your budget, then of course you will need to set your sights a little lower.


... or wait a little longer. One thing that I have learned in my boat buying experiences to date, is that there will _always _be another boat. And, to be fair, from the seller's perspective, there will always be another customer...


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

eherlihy said:


> ...He worked VERY had to get me to place an offer on this boat. He admitted that he was pushing me in one of his numerous emails. His last email was downright annoying...


This is all part of the "side show." I think you will be much better off if you filter out the "who is pushing who" and "who is being annoying" stuff and focus on what you really want.



eherlihy said:


> ...or wait a little longer. One thing that I have learned in my boat buying experiences to date, is that there will _always _be another boat. And, to be fair, from the seller's perspective, there will always be another customer...


You've stated truisms. There are thousands upon thousands of boats out there. So why does it take all of us so long to find the right one? I say it's because, no matter how much of a buyer's market it is, there are really not that many boats out there that are the right model/condition/price for any one of us. This underscores why it is so important to "bite the bullet" and jump when the right one comes up, even if it costs a little more than our utopian wishes. Otherwise another season could pass without getting on the water. You'll accumulate a lot more "boat buying experiences" without actually buying a boat.


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## SaltyMonkey (May 13, 2010)

Absolutely totally agree with Curmudgeon:

He is simply stating that no "negotiations" in price are granted based on survey. Thats bottom dollar. You can survey all you want. You've basically already bargained out that budget already - rigging etc. You probably wouldn't find much during the survey at that point I believe. If you did, you can walk away. And by the way, you may think you are important, but you aren't. He knows he will find another buyer someday. He found you.

Also, this is not a buyers market. These are not houses. Depending on the model and condition, prices remain relatively stable for a "good" boat. Sure their is junk and you make think you are getting a bargain, but I can guarantee you wont. I see great boats everyday that are sold almost at asking price within 2-3 weeks. Its heartbreaking when you are beaten because you "think" you can lowball.

Remember, boats are old. A new engine was golden in that listing.

Good luck


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

SaltyMonkey said:


> Absolutely totally agree with Curmudgeon:
> 
> He is simply stating that no "negotiations" in price are granted based on survey. Thats bottom dollar. You can survey all you want. You've basically already bargained out that budget already - rigging etc. You probably wouldn't find much during the survey at that point I believe. If you did, you can walk away. And by the way, you may think you are important, but you aren't. He knows he will find another buyer someday. He found you.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your opinion...

To be clear, the seller initially had this boat listed as the 2nd highest of this type of vessel on the market at that time. The broker continued to push me to make an offer, which I refused. After the broker told me that the asking price on this vessel was SUBSTANTIALLY reduced (almost 20%) I placed an offer based on what I thought it was worth.

I never said, nor meant to imply, that I was important. In fact, I stated above that he can always find another buyer... Actually, he will need to find another buyer.

I had a similar experience with a FSBO vessel last year. Last I knew the asking price on that vessel was cut by 30%, and to the best of my knowledge, that vessel is STILL on the market... Look through the posts started by me if you want the details.

Regarding the "he found you" comment; to be accurate, I found the broker - over a year ago when he showed me what IMHO was a total POS. I made no offer then, and he understood. At the time I thought that we got along well. Now, I think that perhaps he has become a little too familiar.

I am not looking for an engine, I was looking for a boat. This particular vessel has been on the market since at least November '09. I have strong reason to suspect that she was on the market for much earlier than that - before the new cushions were installed. The price was drastically reduced a couple of weeks ago, so I guess that we will see if she gets snapped up. She's yours if you want her.  Bottom line is that it hasn't happened yet.

I totally agree - these are not houses. The market went haywire when everyone thought that they could treat real-estate as an investment. People stopped buying based on VALUE and started buying on speculation. Reality caught up with the market, and it crashed.

With all due respect, the big difference between homes and boats is this; while everyone needs somewhere to live, (and I feel that it may be blasphemy to state this here) I don't _need _a boat.


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## svsirius (Jan 14, 2007)

The only data point I would add is that if the boat in discussion is limited in availability. There were not a lot of some boats built or imported that may be perfect for you in which case you will need to compromise something. Either the boat, the price, the condition.. something will give.

And not everyone needs to sell - some just want to sell at the right price for them based on what they want to do next. Whether you can live with that is your decision.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

eherlihy said:


> ...She's yours if you want her...


Good, since you've stated repeatedly that you are walking away from this, you can post a link to the listing so we can all have a look. Maybe someone here will want it.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

So what if he doesn't want to buy? What this thread shows is that there are 2 sides to every deal. That's news? Herli didn't like the seller's deal and walked. That's perfectly cool. Just as cool as the seller refusing to go lower.

Jeez - this isn't calculus.

Herli - I'm having a real hard time seeing anything wrong with your position. I'll stick by my original assessment that if someone says that there's no negotiating room after a survey - I'm going to be less inclined to pay for that survey unless, FOR ME, I KNOW it's a screaming deal and I'm willing to take the lumps regardless.

I know that Maine put up some details earlier that were taken off - so I don't know the particulars you guys do, but I'm with you on the "I'm buying a boat - not an engine" stance.

At least you had the integrity to stick to your walk-away, even with the pressure from the broker.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I think that people are getting annoyed at you because you appear to be distorting facts to make someone's reasonable and common negotiating position sound unreasonable. You have repeatedly misled people by claiming this guy said "no survey." In fact, that's the title of this thread.

But based on the additional facts you provided, he never said "no survey." In fact, he said you are free to survey, but he will not adjust price based on that survey. That is very common and not at all unreasonable for placing a low-ball offer - especially on a boat that was just reduced significantly. It appears that you still have a contingency to make a go/no go decision after the survey.

Those of us who have _real_ boat-buying experience (_i.e._, we've actually bought boats, and sometimes even sold them) recognize this phase that you are going through. It is probably not a good idea to come up here and vent your frustrations and demonize the guys on the other side of the negotiating table.

You certainly don't need a boat. And there will always be far more reasons to not buy a boat than there are reasons to buy. It's not a rational decision, and if you lack the passion you will always find a reason a particular boat falls short of your expectations. You are well on your way down that path.

I am still waiting to see a link to this boat that you are so determined to walk away from.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Doc - did you read his first post? Maybe the title of the thread is not completely clear (as if they ever are), but I'm having a hard time seeing "distortion of the facts".

Also, I don't see herli "demonizing" anyone. He's frustrated at a purchase process.

"Real" boat buying experience or not, it's a transaction. Plain and simple.

Do you really want me to believe that this is the way a buyer should approach a very expensive transaction?



> It's not a rational decision, and if you lack the passion you will always find a reason a particular boat falls short of your expectations. You are well on your way down that path.


Sorry - I think you're kind of demonizing a buyer who's perfectly free to be rational and dispassionate with his own money.



RhythmDoctor said:


> I think that people are getting annoyed at you because you appear to be distorting facts to make someone's reasonable and common negotiating position sound unreasonable. You have repeatedly misled people by claiming this guy said "no survey." In fact, that's the title of this thread.
> 
> But based on the additional facts you provided, he never said "no survey." In fact, he said you are free to survey, but he will not adjust price based on that survey. That is very common and not at all unreasonable for placing a low-ball offer - especially on a boat that was just reduced significantly. It appears that you still have a contingency to make a go/no go decision after the survey.
> 
> ...


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

He's welcome to not buy a boat - that's his right. He's welcome to not buy as many boats as he wants. And he's welcome to say whatever he wants up here - and we're free to ignore his messages if we choose.

And you're right, he can have as little passion as he wants also.

I'm not saying that anything he is doing is outside his rights. But I am forecasting that he might never find a boat that meets all his criteria, or a listing broker that meets all his expectations for behavior and softness of negotiations.

And like weather forecasts, I am more likely to be wrong than right. :laugher For all I know, he might give in and buy this boat that he insists he will walk away from. Why else would he protect its identity so diligently?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

RhythmDoctor said:


> Why else would he protect its identity so diligently?


Easy! Brokers all over the east coast now want to hunt him down and kill him. Heh-heh.

Honestly, I can't speak for the guy (don't know him from Adam) but from what I've read he's guarding details because he doesn't want to out the parties with whom he's frustrated. That's kind of a stand-up thing in my book.

Here's to the weather doc!

(PS - Are you a drummer?)


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## gr8trn (Dec 10, 2008)

*Oh, but you do need a boat, ask Capt. Jack.*

Wherever we want to go, we go. That's what a ship is, you know. 
It's not just a keel and hull and a deck and sails. That's what a ship needs. 
But what a ship is ... is freedom.
Gotta' love Capt Jack Sparrow!

Just sayin' you need a boat more than you think mate! 
Greg



eherlihy said:


> Thanks for your opinion...
> 
> To be clear, the seller initially had this boat listed as the 2nd highest of this type of vessel on the market at that time. The broker continued to push me to make an offer, which I refused. After the broker told me that the asking price on this vessel was SUBSTANTIALLY reduced (almost 20%) I placed an offer based on what I thought it was worth.
> 
> ...


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

SaltyMonkey said:


> Also, this is not a buyers market. These are not houses. Depending on the model and condition, prices remain relatively stable for a "good" boat.


This is SPOT on. I have yet to see, at least in about 40 years, a buyers market for the very few top condition boats that are out there. These boats are generally "needle in the hay stack" finds and no owner in their right mind needs to drop their pants.

Each one of my own boats that I have sold has sold for at or near the top of the market price and to the first or second looker, quickly. Even my power boat sold nearly immediately during the initial fuel price surge when power boats became very, very soft. It sold to the first guy who looked at it. This makes it hard to find a "perfect" boat because some of them never even hit the market.

Just helped a buddy sell his very good condition Ericson, without a broker, to the first guy that looked at it. That guy is a member here and knew a good deal when he saw one.

In my experience fantasy boats in this price range just don't exist.. I hope he finds his boat but I suspect he may wear out his welcome with some brokers when you have buyers concern over a brand new engine.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> ...Honestly, I can't speak for the guy (don't know him from Adam) but from what I've read he's guarding details because he doesn't want to out the parties with whom he's frustrated. That's kind of a stand-up thing in my book.
> 
> Here's to the weather doc!
> 
> (PS - Are you a drummer?)


Actually the real stand-up thing to do is to not vent your frustrations with people on a public forum. 

I am a musician, not a drummer.  :laugher I belonged to a band by that name for 20+ years, and it became a userid for many different message boards, so I continue to use it. One of these days I'll come up with a different "handle" - maybe my boat's name (when I get around to actually naming it).


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

All,

Thank you for your comments.

This thread has evolved from my looking to understand if this condition of sale is common, which I now understand it is, to questioning of my rationale. To be fair, the broker's last comment also seemed over the line, but I am over that now. I've already been jumped by one troll (whose post and my response were deleted by the moderators - Thank you!) and can see that he is not alone. Therefore, this will be my last post on this thread.

Yup, I've been looking at boats for 2 years now. I started looking initially exclusively at Pearsons, and have over time begun to look at more manufacturers. Over those two years I've had some stuff go south in my personal life (that I am not going to go into here) and that has changed my priorities over those years. I have also met more than my share of boat owners whose boats will likely be sold by their estates.

Maine Sail - you keep your boats in TOP shape, as did your buddy, (that's a compliment) and that is why they sell for TOP dollar. _None _of the boats that I have looked at have been kept in top shape (exception was Cordelia). The fact is that all of them have seemed neglected, yet the owners feel that they should get top dollar. Not from me, my friend.

Maine - you KNOW the specific details on the boat that prompted this thread. You figured it out, and I am grateful that you took them down after I asked. If you think that I have uncovered a great deal, then you could buy it, and sell her at a profit. Please respect the seller, and the broker, if not me, and do not share that information here.

A little more context may help explain how this situation arose. I did not ask to see this boat. When I met the broker to look at another (neglected) Ericson, the broker took me to see this boat since I had driven over an hour. I liked the boat, but told him that because of it's condition and lack of equipment (even with a new engine), it was not in my price range.

In your mind, or the broker's, I may be a tire kicker. The FSBO guy with the neglected Pearson 33 suggested that I was when I decided his boat wasn't worth making an offer on. He still owns it, and that was over a year ago. In the case of the boat that inspired this thread, I still believe that I made a good offer for a boat that required a good deal of work.

This entire thread has been educational for me, and hopefully others have learned from it as well.

That's all folks

Nothing left to see - move along


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

RhythmDoctor said:


> Actually the real stand-up thing to do is to not vent your frustrations with people on a public forum.


Heh-heh. Boy that's a slippery slope ain't it. Aren't plenty of people doing just that with the OP?

Anyway, if everyone followed that creed this place would be boring as hell.

What I find interesting is that people seem to be getting frustrated that he's not pulling the trigger. It's like, "dude, just buy a boat already". What's up with that?


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> ...What I find interesting is that people seem to be getting frustrated that he's not pulling the trigger. It's like, "dude, just buy a boat already". What's up with that?


Ditto. No one here understands eherlihy's needs, expectations, timeline, and budget as well as eherlihy does. Eherlihy's a big boy, and can make his own decisions in his own sweet time. I can't see how or why that would bother anyone.

Eherlihy, carry on with your boat search. I'll be interested to hear about other prospects you're considering, and about "the one" that eventually works out for you. Good luck.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The one thing that strikes me about this thread is that while there are a variety of issues being discussed, it seems as if some of the posts are critical of Eherlihy for not buying this boat. I'm not sure that I understand that position. 

We all buy or reject the boats that we do for all kinds of reasons, both real and measurable, but also because of the intangible, instinctual and emotional. 

There is nothing wrong with relying on these sources to make a decision. In Eherliy's mind, there were reasons to reject the boats that he did that made sense to him and that is the only person that it had to make sense to. Off hand I see nothing inherently wrong in with his long search. For some of us the primary goal is to get out on the water, even if that means making a variety of compromises, while for others, they want the perfect boat for them, at the perfect price for that boat. I can't fault either, position because in the end owning a boat is a very personal experience and the decision involved needs to reflect that person's objectives and personality. 

In my own life, I have bought a whole lot of boats. How I found these individual boats has varied, and the number of boats considered each time has also varied. 

At least on one occasion, I have done the dozen-dock-tango, looking at one boat after another over a long period of time. In the midst of that tango, I went to see a boat of a make and model, which had appealed to me on paper, but which I had not seen in the flesh. When I got aboard the boat in question, there was nothing in particular wrong with the boat that I could point my finger at, and yet I found myself feeling like this was not a boat that I wanted to buy. 

As I continued looking the broker would occasionally remind me of that boat, or let me know the price had dropped, or point out that it seemed like a good deal or a great match for my objectives compared to other boats that I was considering seriously. To this day, I am not certain what it was that dissuaded me from making an offer on that boat, but frankly it does not matter. I eventually did buy a boat. I liked the boat I bought, and that is what mattered. 

Ed good luck in your boat search. Hopefully you will come upon a boat that knocks your socks off soon.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Heh-heh. Boy that's a slippery slope ain't it. Aren't plenty of people doing just that with the OP?


Yes, but there is a world of difference between expressing your disagreement directly to a forum member where he can defend himself (if he so chooses) vs. venting frustrations (and perhaps lopsided accounts of their negotiations) in a forum where the person is not present to defend himself. I have come close to doing that myself and quickly backed off. In fact, I remember saying a couple of things about the previous owner of the boat that I now own in a message, and people were getting worked up about what a jerk he was, and I had to cut them off and admit to people that my portrayal of the facts was one-sided, and he really is not a jerk. So yes, I made that mistake too, but I recognized it and learned that lesson.



smackdaddy said:


> What I find interesting is that people seem to be getting frustrated that he's not pulling the trigger. It's like, "dude, just buy a boat already". What's up with that?


And you are surprised? This being a boat buying forum, we want to see people buy boats. Throw us some red meat! 

But seriously, the other moderators have made some very reasonable points. None of us can fairly gauge this guy's preferences, budget limitations, and timelines. It's his call, and his call only. But it was his choice to subject himself to our opinions, and he did start by saying, "Please - let me have it!"

I agree that this thread has probably maxed out its usefulness. Let me apologize now if I have been too blunt and judgmental in my past posts. I was saying what I thought at the time, and I'm open-minded enough to recognize that I may have gone overboard.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

RhythmDoctor said:


> Yes, but there is a world of difference between expressing your disagreement directly to a forum member where he can defend himself (if he so chooses) vs. venting frustrations (and perhaps lopsided accounts of their negotiations) in a forum where the person is not present to defend himself.


Trust me. I've been on the sharp end of that stick recently. So I get where you're coming from.

But from what I see, herli was careful not to name names - just vent his frustrations at a _purchasing process_ that didn't seem right to him.

I think that's a pretty significant distinction.

Yes, he did mention his displeasure at the pressuring from the broker (whoever that is)...but so what? He didn't out the guy with any details and therefore didn't create a need for a defense.

I've seen far, far worse than this from others regarding dissatisfaction with purchases or services.

Again, it seems like you, Maine, and others maybe know more details about this whole thing judging by your responses. Are you a broker? Or do you know this specific broker or seller? Is that where this is coming from?

From the outside - it just all seems a bit over-reactionary. That's all I'm saying.



RhythmDoctor said:


> But it was his choice to subject himself to our opinions, and he did start by saying, "Please - let me have it!"


Totally agreed. If this thread teaches us nothing else - it's to NEVER ask for the beating first.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> ...Again, it seems like you, Maine, and others maybe know more details about this whole thing judging by your responses. Are you a broker? Or do you know this specific broker or seller? Is that where this is coming from?...


I have no inside knowledge - just inferences from the tone of the posts. I already said that I may have been too judgmental, so I'm not going to try to justify it any further. I'd rather just let it go. And I genuinely wish this guy luck in finding a boat that he really wants. It is to his credit that he is willing to wait for it.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Well, I'm a drummer, and I know Painkiller is learning to play the bass - so depending on what you play we might be able to start making some mad cash playing weddings and bar mitzvahs. Whaddayasay?

I would include "boat christenings" but by the time Herli scores his ride we may all be seriously old - like in our 60s.

Heh-heh.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

eherlihy said:


> In your mind, or the broker's, I may be a tire kicker. The guy with the neglected Pearson 33 suggested I was when I decided his boat wasn't worth making an offer on. In the case of the boat that inspired this thread, I still believe that I made a good offer for a boat that required a good deal of work.
> 
> This entire thread has been educational for me, and hopefully others have learned from it as well.
> 
> ...


E,

I did not work with that broker and they were merely the listing broker. I use my own broker, who I have used for years, so it was a co-broker deal. As I see it, and as I do it, I think you really need to identify what it is you are looking for so you and your broker/brokers are on the same page.

My broker knows precisely the type of boats I will and won't look at, and what I want in a vessel. She knows not to call me unless the boat meets my standards. She has yet to bring me to a junker unless I specifically stated that I wanted to see it anyway, which I have. When looking I do a lot of drive by's without the broker so as not to waste their time. I can usually tell from the parking lot if a boat will meet my criteria. My broker literally grills other brokers for info on specifics if she has not seen the boat before mentioning it to me. We work very, very well together but she knows what I want and expect in a vessel.

Here are some of my "wants". When I am buying I have flexibility if the boat meets 70+% or more of these items..

*Wants List: *

I want a boat with all maintenance records documented and receipts.

I want a boat that is as close to "clean as new", including the bilge and engine compartments as possible.

I want a boat with new or newer sails and standing rigging less than ten years old. Standing rigging MUST have receipts or will be considered same age as the vessel and useless to me.

I want a re-powered vessel with an engine less than ten years old or an immaculately well maintained original engine with no large amounts of rust, flaking paint, worn mounts messy oil etc. etc..

I want a boat with no moldy must smells and no visible mold in lockers etc.. All boats have hidden mold but I do not expect to see it anywhere visible.

I want a boat with a fresh paint job or chip & scar free gelcoat that has been well maintained. If a hull has bee repaired the gelcoat or paint must match 100% and not be visibly detectable from less than 2 feet away.

I want a boat with a fair bottom and preferably recently barrier coated by a reputable shop.

I want a boat with deck hardware that has been re-bedded & upgraded on a regular basis.

I want a boat that does not have any keel issues or a boat with a recent keel re-set. Smile's are not acceptable and botched repairs of them are also not acceptable.

I want a boat with 95% or more dry decks

I want a boat with hatches and ports that do not leak

I want a boat with seacocks in good working condition

I want a boat with a perfectly operating and safe electrical systems

I want a boat with a good compliment of ground tackle

I want a production boat but one on the "better built" end of the spectrum

I want a boat with exterior canvas in good to excellent condition and less and four years old.

I don't care about electronics but do not want a boat with holes drilled everywhere and botched electronics installs.

I want a boat that is in the top 2% for condition & maintenance on the market.

Make yourself a similar list and give it to the broker so they stop calling you with JUNK! If you give them your wants list and they keep calling you with junkers, find a new broker. I have learned that you can't have a good working relation ship if you are vague and not clear on your needs & wants.

I was under the impression the boat we were talking about was in very good condition? Perhaps I misunderstood.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Bottom line- it wasn't the right boat.

Some of us are "Right Brain" buyers- we buy based primarily on emotion and rationalize the economics based on the emotional investment. We shop for six months and end up with a boat we love which costs us more than we expect in "surprises" and we end up selling the boat at a disillusioned loss two years later.

Some of us are "Left Brain" buyers- we buy primarily upon logical economic analysis, and rationalize our affection based on the economic investment. We shop for six months and buy a boat at the right price which we like but do not love, and end up selling it two years later when a boat closer to our heart comes along.

Some of us are "Balanced Brain" buyers- we will search until we find a boat that both fits both our heart and our budget, satisfies both cranial hemispheres and we keep her for years, happy with our choice. We are longer without a boat, but much longer with the boat that eventually finds us.

Something tells me eherlihy is a balanced brain buyer. And that is perfectly fine.


Hang in there, eherlihy- the right boat will find you.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Okay - one more question on this thing...just out of curiosity.

Maine, I agree with most of your post above. But from my perspective as a reader (not knowing any of the behind-the-scene details) you were pretty harsh on herli earlier...seemingly taking up for this invisible broker. Here's what I mean...



Maine Sail said:


> MaineSail rocks.


Wear out one's welcome with brokers? Seriously?

Personally, if I'm an individual buyer - looking for my individual boat - I could give a damn what brokers think about me as a buyer. My primary job as a buyer is not to ensure that I have a "shining reputation" with brokers. At some level, wouldn't that just mean I was a sucker?

Now if I were _in the business or hobby_ of buying/selling lots of boats - it's another thing entirely. Then everything you said about your broker above makes perfect sense.

But, again, if I'm an individual buyer that calls up some broker to see a boat they are listing - he's not got my best interests at heart (as herli said earlier). He's not necessarily my enemy. But I definitely don't need him being my best buddy and telling all his broker pals along the East Coast that Smack is a swell guy.

As I said, I don't know any of the details. But this whole thing just came across as weird...like when you eat dinner with your best friend's family and the parents start talking about sex. Okay not that weird - but close.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Okay - one more question on this thing...just out of curiosity.
> 
> Maine, I agree with most of your post above. But from my perspective as a reader (not knowing any of the behind-the-scene details) you were pretty harsh on herli earlier...seemingly taking up for this invisible broker. Here's what I mean...
> 
> ...


Smacky,

Classic case of hit send before proof reading. My post was meant to be tongue in cheek only, but after re-reading it, I see that it came across the opposite. My BAD! It has since been edited as I would hope you would do so too.

I meant what I said in all sincerity noit in jest. I have a number of friends who are brokers and have had the tire kicker discussion many times. The op may not be a tire kicker but after looking for two years there are some brokers who may perceive it this way, wrongly or not. Let's say the boat you want, and are ready to buy, does come on the market but you've spent countless hours of the brokers time looking at boats that came close, very, very close. The broker will get to the point that they won't call you and will call the next buyer in line just part of sales. The industry is small and brokers talk and run in small circles. I am in NO WAY suggestion that the OP has become this but that he may eventually get perceived as a tire kicker and his boat may never come along because someone else is sailing it.

I have since posted a suggestion for better communication between the OP and his broker. There is NO excuse for a broker showing you a boat that is not within +/- 20% of what you want in a boat unless A) you have not been honest with the broker in what EXACTLY you are looking for, or B) the broker is a bad sales person.

If it is "A" get your ducks in a row and let the broker know EXACTLY what you want to cut down on the time you spend traveling to see boats and the brokers time spent showing you around for boats that do not fit your precise criteria. If "B" find a new broker.

Also take up the art of the drive by. I do not like to waste my brokers time so often do boat yard drive by's. 9 times out of 10 I can tell if I want to see more just by seeing the outside.

Again my post was NOT meant as a criticism of the OP but rather more a concern for his overall search and the potential outcome of "perceptions" that can happen within the brokerage community.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> Smacky,
> 
> Classic case of hit send before proof reading. My post was meant to be tongue in cheek only, but after re-reading it, I see that it came across the opposite. My BAD! It has since been edited as I would hope you would do so too.
> 
> ...


Done. No worries dude. You know me...Mr. Peacemaker.









(That was taken before the glasses cracked)


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

A question for the OP to ponder: Are your expectations for what you can buy for the amount of money that you are willing to commit realistic?

Boats are expensive. And they seem overpriced always (at least to me). If you have surveyed what is being offered on the market (i.e. all the boats of the make and model that you want that you can find advertised), the average of these prices is the about the market price for an average boat (since most boats were made for a number of years, make a plot, listing price on the verical scale, year model on horizontal scale. Now find every boat listing that you can for that make and model, plot them on the chart, draw a straight line throught the average lay of the points, and you have a crude valuation for a given year model of the boat). Now you only have to adjust for some boats being better, some being worst. If you are buying an older boat, they come with some degree of wear and tear which is already figured in the average price. Sellers don't typically price their boats well over what they believe that it's worth, after all, the objective is to sell the boat. I suspect most sellers figure in a little extra for negotiation purposes, but that is likely to be 5-10%, not 25-30%.

If all the boats that you are considering continue to fall outside the range that you are willing to commit to for a given quality level, you might need to consider a slightly smaller, less expensive model. And if you see one that you really like, you may have to spend a little extra to get it....do so. You'll forget in time the extra few thousand.

The seller, broker, and surveyor are not your friend (nor your enemy). They have different objectives from you. Use them to your advantage, but you don't have to like them, nor do they have to like you. It's a business deal...


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Back many, many years ago there was an old trick the street vendors on Coney island would use to get rid of "looky lou's" kids. Lets say some kid was blocking the stall and asking prices for the 15th time for an item that was listed for $20 (Big money back then). The vendor would say to the kid (How about $2.00). If the kid said no but I'll give you $1.50 the vendor would know the kid was never going to buy at any price. If the kid said OK the vendor would laugh and say, "Of course you must be dreaming". But would know the kid did have some money at least.

Like Main Sail said sometimes the list price of a boat is a way better deal than the 50% price of another boat. Of course we may feel like a better deal maker with 50% off even if it is not true.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

davidpm said:


> ...Like Main Sail said sometimes the list price of a boat is a way better deal than the 50% price of another boat. Of course we may feel like a better deal maker with 50% off even if it is not true.


For this reason I believe that thinking of prices, whether offering or selling, as a % of asking prices is meaningless. For production boats, it is much better to think of price as the % of average on soldboats.com (using the trendline that NCC320 suggested), or % of NADA (recognizing the NADA is almost always a low value, so you're often well over 100%), or BUCvalue (which can sometimes be high). Thinking % of asking price gives too much power to the seller, as it assumes that the more he asks, the more he is going to get. More often, asking more just means he will have to wait longer, and maybe have to come down later.

I also disagree with the notion that a listing broker's objective is to get the highest price possible. The broker's objective is to move boats. An overpriced boat will just sit there and waste his time. So often, at the same time he is pushing the buyer to raise his offer, he may also be pushing the seller to lower his expectations. While it's true that a broker's commission does go up with the price, most brokers would rather take 85% now than hold out a year for a 95% offer that may never come.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I stumbled across my old thread while looking for something else... I know that I said that I was done here, but I did want to follow up to let the posters know that I DID BUY A BOAT in October of that year.

The boat that sparked this thread was a 1984 CS-36. I eventually bought a 1987 O'day 35.

My dealings with the broker, and seller insipred another thread, http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-buyers-sellers-forum/66125-money-held-after-sale.html, in which the seller was unwilling to warrant the "NEW ENGINE" for 30 days after the close. After some research, I learned that this boat was laid up in 2005, had an engine (of dubious history) installed. The vessel was still on the hard in 2010. Someone else eventually bought the CS, and I hope that they have had good luck with it.

I bought my O'day through a broker in Rhode Island, who was a genuine help to me as I looked at the boat that he was representing. There were issues with the O'day, that he helped me and the seller address to everyone's satisfaction. The key point to me is that I did not feel as though I was being pushed by the broker, through whom I bought the boat, at any time in the process.

For me, and "The Admiral," the O'day is simply a better fit than the CS. While I would not take it to Bermuda, as I could with the CS (assuming everything was 100%), but that's not in our plans. The O'day has a lot more room below, and has much simpler systems (no CRT Radar, no Autopilot, a newer double burner range) and _*all *_of the systems work. The keel on the O'day had new keel bolts installed by the seller, after it was discovered that they were shot during the survey (there's a thread on that in SailNet too http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/43505-wet-bilge-more-than-just-nuisance.html). Over the three years that I have owned the O'day, I have put far more into her than the purchase price of the CS. Had I bought the CS, I'd be bankrupt by now...

My point in this post is not to compare two vastly different boats, but to provide closure to the story.

I also hope that by doing so I will be offering my encouragement to anyone frustrated while trying to find the right boat. (There seem to be a bunch of these threads lately.) Eventually you will find the right boat for you, and you should stick to your guns about whether to proceed with the transaction, or not.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Well done Herli.


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

Thanks for the follow up. Always good to hear "the rest of the story"


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## TerryBradley (Feb 28, 2006)

eherlihy said:


> I would like your opinions on the following situation;
> 
> A broker has shown me a boat that I am interested in. The boat needs a bottom job, and has minimal equipment, and 26 year old standing rigging. It does have a new motor, and cushions (that I don't particularly like). The asking price is in the middle of asking prices for similar boats.
> 
> ...


Do not "walk" away from this deal. Run! Run my man. Run like the wind!


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

TerryBradley said:


> Do not "walk" away from this deal. Run! Run my man. Run like the wind!


This post is 3-1/2 years old and the OP just today posted that he did not buy the boat.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

chuck53 said:


> This post is 3-1/2 years old and the OP just today posted that he did not buy the boat.


I think he was waiting for this advice to come in. Not a moment too soon! :laugher


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Am I missing something or is it true that the OP offered 42% below asking price? Why would any seller pay for the op's new bottom job or standing rigging? I have been brokering boats for 25 years and when I see someone with the apparent "I wasn't there" attitude I run like hell. FYI I have about a 95% success rate with clients I do take on but in truth I'm not in the business of babysitting. I'm in the business of selling boats. 
BTW when I purchased my last boat I made a full price offer with no survey or sea trail purchased the boat and went sailing NO REGRETS!


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

chuck53 said:


> This post is 3-1/2 years old and the OP just today posted that he did not buy the boat.


True. However, people are still selling and buying boats, brokers are still brokering and surveyors are still surveying. So... I think many of the points made (like post 54) are still valid and valuable for others. IMO, It's rare that a thread in a sailing forum is truly "stale", and even rarer that it's worth posting about it.

Having said that, I think the thread was miss-titled, as having a survey was not the issue, terms of sale were. If you don't agree on terms, you move on. No harm, no foul. Seems to me to be much ado about nothing, but a lot of good advice has been dispensed in the thread none the less.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

barefootnavigator said:


> Am I missing something or is it true that the OP offered 42% below asking price? Why would any seller pay for the op's new bottom job or standing rigging? I have been brokering boats for 25 years and when I see someone with the apparent "I wasn't there" attitude I run like hell. FYI I have about a 95% success rate with clients I do take on but in truth I'm not in the business of babysitting. I'm in the business of selling boats.
> BTW when I purchased my last boat I made a full price offer with no survey or sea trail purchased the boat and went sailing NO REGRETS!


You're missing something...

As I stated in the original post 3½ years ago; I offered the guy 78% of his [EDIT: or 22% below] asking price at the time, despite that; the boat had not put it in the water in 5 years, it needed a bottom job, and the rigging was questionable. I believe that mine was the first offer he received in nine months on the market... Furthermore, I learned from the broker that I did buy a boat from that this boat eventually sold, for the same price that I had negotiated. Therefore, I believe that my initial offer was a fair one...

I am thrilled that you broker boats, and have a boat, and no regrets. Best of luck to you.

[EDIT 2: May I suggest that anyone that before posting to this thread, you read all the posts, to come up to speed. I was simply trying to close the loop, for those interested, in post #55]


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

My bad I must have read it wrong. I read that he lowered the price 20% after this you offered 78% of his new asking price. What did you end up buying? and congrats on the new boat, all's well that ends well


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

barefootnavigator said:


> My bad I must have read it wrong. I read that he lowered the price 20% after this you offered 78% of his new asking price. What did you end up buying? and congrats on the new boat, all's well that ends well


See this post for the shocking conclusion to this sordid tale... All the gory details are revealed at the above link. 

[EDIT: You know, I really struggled not to point you to the whole story which is here.]


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I just read your edits, I also read the thread from start to finish. I don't think anyone questioned whether your offer was fair or not, it seems you are the only person who brought that up.

Having a boat on the hard for 5 years doesn't make it any less valuable it actually may makes it a better boat as the hull has had time to completely dry out and severely lesson the chances of osmosis. Not receiving any offers for 9 months does not make a boat any less valuable either, perhaps just marketed wrong. 

As far as the bottom job and rigging goes the person who is going to benefit from them is always the one who pays for it. It seems as if the seller was reasonable to your explanation of rigging and bottom, after reducing his price 42% his bottom line was very reasonable. If the new owner of that boat got it for 42% below its listing price it sounds like he got an awesome boat.


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

barefootnavigator said:


> Am I missing something or is it true that the OP offered 42% below asking price? Why would any seller pay for the op's new bottom job or standing rigging? I have been brokering boats for 25 years and when I see someone with the apparent "I wasn't there" attitude I run like hell. FYI I have about a 95% success rate with clients I do take on but in truth I'm not in the business of babysitting. I'm in the business of selling boats.
> BTW when I purchased my last boat I made a full price offer with no survey or sea trail purchased the boat and went sailing NO REGRETS!


One of us is certainly "missing something". The OP says he offered 80%, then 83% of asking price. So, (for example) if the seller asked for 100k, the OP offered 80k right?
More importantly, not sure what the point of your last paragraph was. It may be OK for a professional to buy a boat on those terms (though, without a LOT of inside information, I don't know why!), but it certainly should not be advised for the average boat buyer!


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

The op corrected him self and said that he offered 78% after it had been lowered 20% that adds up to 42% The seller agreed on this price and wanted to move forward with the only stipulation that 42% was his maximum discount, seems pretty simple. As for my purchase I made the full price offer sight unseen. Boats are very simple creatures, even with a full survey it sounds as if the op has dropped a fortune into his new boat, the old boat very may well have been the better boat for him.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

barefootnavigator said:


> ...As for my purchase I made the full price offer sight unseen...


Sounds like "broker talk" to me.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

barefootnavigator said:


> BTW when I purchased my last boat I made a full price offer with no survey or sea trail purchased the boat and went sailing NO REGRETS!


If you made that offer sight unseen that sounds like a good story. Want to share?


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Not much to the story, I wanted a boat so I bought one  I could tell you a great story about the first time I sailed into Hoofers but I don't know if naked slip n sliding is acceptable on sailnet


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## L124C (Oct 4, 2007)

barefootnavigator said:


> The op corrected him self and said that he offered 78% after it had been lowered 20% that adds up to 42% The seller agreed on this price and wanted to move forward with the only stipulation that 42% was his maximum discount, seems pretty simple. As for my purchase I made the full price offer sight unseen. Boats are very simple creatures, even with a full survey it sounds as if the op has dropped a fortune into his new boat, the old boat very may well have been the better boat for him.


Well...You (and now the OP) are misquoting the OP's OP. Nothing complicated about it.

"I placed an offer on a boat @ 80% of asking price, justifying my bid by pointing out the need for standing rigging, and the bottom job. the seller countered at 90% of asking price, with the stipulation that the sale is NOT subject to renegotiation if any issues are found by a professional surveyor. I upped my offer to 83% of asking price, and again stating that 26 year old rigging on a salt water boat is not acceptable. The broker says that the seller will not budge, and that the rigging is fine."

I find it about as unlikely that a experienced "broker" would have trouble understanding those terms, as I do he would buy a boat "sight unseen" for asking price. 
I also think he would laugh at the ridiculous terms in the OP. Why even bother with the survey? Why not simply say "As is, in the water"?

Finally, "Boats are very simple creatures"? If you mean they are not as complex as a Space Shuttle, you are correct. However, If you are implying that many things cannot go wrong with boats, costing lots of money, if not lives - I'm convinced, not only are you not a "broker", you've never even owned a boat. In fact...I'm not sure if the statement has any meaning, as you seem to contradict yourself in the same sentence. Please...post less, read more. You are entitled to your opinion, but a resource like SN is a terrible thing to waste. Gotta call BS when I see it!


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

barefootnavigator said:


> Not much to the story, I wanted a boat so I bought one  I could tell you a great story about the first time I sailed into Hoofers but I don't know if naked slip n sliding is acceptable on sailnet


No problem, not every story has to be told. You did say that you bought with no sea trial or survey which is a little unusual. I can think of lots of ways that could have gone down however.


The boat purchase and the naked sliding and drinking were all part of the same story.
You self surveyed as you have sufficient experience.
The price was low you could't loose.
You were helping out a friend in need.
You had total confidence in the seller.
The cost of the boat compared to your net worth was so low it was an impulse decision.
You needed a boat any boat to leave town on.
You knew the boat very well having done much of the work on it for the PO.
The boat had sentimental value to you.
There was a women involved (this is a whole category with dozens of options)

It is just that the average bloke spending over 10 K for a boat probably is wise to go through the survey and sea trial process and when someone says they didn't it is an anomaly that makes me curious.

I'm just a curious person with an active imagination so no worries, sorry to pry.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

The boat cost my entire life savings. I was a buyer and knew what I wanted. The full price offer locked the boat, you can always re negotiate later but I didn't. I did drive 27 hours the next day to take a quick peek about 1 hour total. I now have the best boat in the entire world  Boats are pretty simple, the one I wanted rarely comes for sale and I knew I could fix anything that at did come up. Now that I have the boat she is actually ten times better than I could ever imagined.
FYI it was my eleventh boat, all eleven were purchased without a survey and I don't have any regrets on any of them. 
tHE MORAL OF THE STORY IS i KNEW WHAT i WANTED, DID MY DUE DILIGENCE AND NOW i'M SAILING THE BOAT i WANT.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

barefootnavigator said:


> The boat cost my entire life savings. I was a buyer and knew what I wanted. The full price offer locked the boat, you can always re negotiate later but I didn't. I did drive 27 hours the next day to take a quick peek about 1 hour total. I now have the best boat in the entire world  Boats are pretty simple, the one I wanted rarely comes for sale and I knew I could fix anything that at did come up. Now that I have the boat she is actually ten times better than I could ever imagined.
> FYI it was my eleventh boat, all eleven were purchased without a survey and I don't have any regrets on any of them.
> tHE MORAL OF THE STORY IS i KNEW WHAT i WANTED, DID MY DUE DILIGENCE AND NOW i'M SAILING THE BOAT i WANT.


Perfect. But we really want to know about the hooters and naked sliding stuff. Far more interesting. BTW, did you join a rally too?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

barefootnavigator said:


> Boats are pretty simple, the one I wanted rarely comes for sale and I knew I could fix anything that at did come up.
> FYI it was my eleventh boat, all eleven were purchased without a survey
> tHE MORAL OF THE STORY IS i KNEW WHAT i WANTED,


Yours is a very indivdual story and obviously the best way to go.... Having so much experience you can do a better job than a surveyor. 11 boats is a history that few buyers have.
However, i am sure you recommend people with less experience, or a lack of knowledge to fix boats take advice before plunging in, especially if the investment is a larger percentage of their total assests.

Glad you got what you want! Its not easy 

Mark


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

barefootnavigator said:


> ...
> Having a boat on the hard for 5 years doesn't make it any less valuable it actually may makes it a better boat as the hull has had time to completely dry out and severely lesson the chances of osmosis. Not receiving any offers for 9 months does not make a boat any less valuable either, perhaps just marketed wrong...


I have a real problem with this statement. The vast majority of boats I have seen that were on the hard for more than just 1 year were worse off than if they had not been actively used. And ones that were more than a year were getting very tired. Boats on the hard for extended periods usually means an uninterested seller who defers regular maintenance during this period.

Sure, the hull may have a chance to dry out but everything else suffers if the owner does not actively maintain the vessel. And layups that are prone to osmosis do not automatically heal when drying. That osmosis clock starts ticking again when the boat is once again launched unless a proper bottom job has been completed.

Eherlihy, glad you are enjoying your current boat. Cordelia just sold again to another owner in Annapolis. The guy who purchased her from me had no problem selling her and did not need a broker.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Excellent post Mark, truer words have never been spoken,* its not easy* My first boat was a POS I started small and learned everything there was to know, I'm still learning today after 25 years, that's how long it took me to get my dream boat. I have loved all my boats and every one of them represented a new challenge. So many people just jump in with no knowledge, they pay to have everything done for them and go broke eventually selling their boat and dreams at a loss. To any newbies reading this post and that's why I have put the info here, for them to read. The best way to buy a boat is to find some old neglected sailboat, maybe an Ericson 27 for 3k buy her sail her and learn from her. She may be the only boat you ever need and fully capable of crossing any ocean in the world. If you decide you need more after a few years upgrade to a 30 and so on. I'd rather have a paid for well maintained 8' dink than a derelict 40 footer tied to the bank and the dock


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## ltgoshen (Jan 5, 2009)

If you are rich or can afford to drop for $29,0o0 to $75000, on a boat, by all means go thru the trouble for the professional survey. Or spend some time and learn where the money is on a boat, Or rather where you can lose the most money on a boat if not checked out properly. 
I did the survey on my C&C 30 MK1. I learned all I could from searching Google and asking lots of folks on this site and others, what to look for on this model. I learned a great deal "first" then I examined the boat. I looked for all the known flaws for the given boat. 
1) Mast steep, 
2) possible Balsa core "WET" 
3) Standing rigging, 
4) Electronics, 
5) sail inventory, 
6) Engine compression check, 
7) Running rigging, 
8) Blisters on the hull, 
9) Thru-Hulls, Cutlass bearing, "bottom work"
10) radio, GPS, Auto pilot. 
I mean it's not brain surgery.
In your case, I would have hired and paid the $500 or $800. Bucks and had someone els tell me and write it up as a "discount battle plan " . But for me I got the deal up front on my boat and put the time and money in getting the boat where I wanted it and at the price I wanted to pay for it. So I paid $2,500.00 bucks for the boat then a year later put a $3,000 2gm20F engine in the boat my-self. I have spent some money no dough, upgrading the boat. But you will likely want to upgrade your new boat as well. I guess my point is, if a survey helps you with the battle plan or makes you more comfortable with the purchase then by all means I say survey. If your plan affords you , big boat money and big up-fit money than that's great. Me, not so much. I have to be frugal to be a sailor. Some will argue that money spent now for a better boat is cheaper. I would disagree with them for the systems training and experience of my boat, when I do finely cast off the lines, will be invaluable. I will not need to hire anybody ever to maintain this boat. Sometime I will but it will be because I have the money or that I'm too old to do it anymore. I do so love your enthusiasm to make your dreams' become real It the driving factor in all my over 40 year decisions.

Rags to riches

Cheers, LT

Before










Ater


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

Most insurance companies require a professional survey for a yacht policy.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

barefootnavigator said:


> The boat cost my entire life savings. I was a buyer and knew what I wanted. The full price offer locked the boat, you can always re negotiate later but I didn't. I did drive 27 hours the next day to take a quick peek about 1 hour total. I now have the best boat in the entire world  Boats are pretty simple, the one I wanted rarely comes for sale and I knew I could fix anything that at did come up. Now that I have the boat she is actually ten times better than I could ever imagined.
> FYI it was my eleventh boat, all eleven were purchased without a survey and I don't have any regrets on any of them.
> tHE MORAL OF THE STORY IS i KNEW WHAT i WANTED, DID MY DUE DILIGENCE AND NOW i'M SAILING THE BOAT i WANT.


See I knew it was a great story. Thanks for sharing.

By the way what boat inspires that much passion?


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

She is a little old Hess 22 Sails like a dream passes practically every boat around. I can afford to maintain her perfectly and now that I have gotten used to how small she is she is very comfortable. I swear every time i row to shore which is about 120 days per year I look back at her on the hook and fall in love with her all over again. Very comfortable in a blow and sails a dream when all about are motoring. I sailed her engine-less for 2 years but now have a Yuloh and a small kicker. I could easily write a book about all the great features of this boat but I'm too busy sailing her.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Tim R. said:


> Most insurance companies require a professional survey for a yacht policy.


... and most marinas in my area require insurance before they will let you rent a slip, or store your boat over the winter. So *keeping a boat in New England = getting a survey*.

Tim - yeah I know that Cordelia sold again. I PMed the guy (who is obviously VERY excited about owning such a beautiful boat) shortly after he bought her, and pointed him in your direction. Cordelia had many of the projects completed that I have since had to do on my vessel. My boat won't ever be in Cordelia's league of fit & finish, but I have had my paws on, and love, every icky inch of her bilge. I wouldn't trade my experience for money, because I will probably need the experience again someday.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

eherlihy said:


> ... and most marinas in my area require insurance before they will let you rent a slip, or store your boat over the winter. So *keeping a boat in New England = getting a survey*.
> 
> Tim - yeah I know that Cordelia sold again. I PMed the guy (who is obviously VERY excited about owning such a beautiful boat) shortly after he bought her, and pointed him in your direction. Cordelia had many of the projects completed that I have since had to do on my vessel. My boat won't ever be in Cordelia's league of fit & finish, but I have had my paws on, and love, every icky inch of her bilge. I wouldn't trade my experience for money, because I will probably need the experience again someday.


Just curious - is this the same Cordelia owned by Nicklaus here? Did he sell already?


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

TakeFive said:


> Just curious - is this the same Cordelia owned by Nicklaus here? Did he sell already?


Same boat...


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Maine Sail said:


> Same boat...


Was he the buyer (one year ago) or the seller (last few weeks)? That boat was gorgeous.


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

TakeFive said:


> Was he the buyer (one year ago) or the seller (last few weeks)? That boat was gorgeous.


Buyer. Just finished the first season with her.


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## MobiusALilBitTwisted (Jun 25, 2007)

Maine Sail said:


> Same boat...


This Post needs links to said boat......

tyfayd


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

MobiusALilBitTwisted said:


> This Post needs links to said boat......


Current owner's blog:

Long Winter?s Nap | On Board Cordelia









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