# Why isn't there a traveler?



## shayw (Jul 13, 2009)

Some older boats such as Rafiki's and Alajuela's don't use a traveler? What am I missing here? Seems dangerous and inefficient to me.

...be gentle.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

There's no particular danger in setting up a boat without a traveler, you lose a fair bit of control and versatility on sail trim, though much of that can be recouped with a properly engineered and powerful vang set up.

Also, some boats were set up with twin mainsheets in an upside-down "V" arrangement that provided much of the control of an average length traveler and mainsheet without the (pricey) hardware... but again you're giving up convenience and ease of use.

What strikes me as dangerous are cruising boats with no vang fitted at all.


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## shayw (Jul 13, 2009)

*sailing w/out traveler*

Do you know anyplace I can learn more about this set up? I have searched online but not found anything yet!
Thanks!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Rigging small boats by Glen L. it's a free online book. shows the very rig mentioned. I think it's called a crosby rig.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

The Niagara 35 has two independent mainsheets in an inverted V arrangement. I quite like the idea for a cruising boat since you can use one sheet for controlling boom location and the other for shaping the sail. Not as good as a traveller for ultimate control but just fine for cruisers who are not too enamoured of pulling strings.


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## jcalvinmarks (Mar 17, 2010)

My little Hunter 18.5 (1991) doesn't have a traveler, just a fiddle block on the cockpit sole that runs up to a fiddle near the end of the boom. It makes for a longer mainsheet than might otherwise be required, but with the cockpit and cabintop the way it is, there's nowhere for a traveler to go. It pretty much makes mainsail trim a binary operation: ease the mainsheet or trim the mainsheet.

I (somewhat) make up for the sail trim deficiencies on downwind legs by running a preventer from the end of the boom to a stout block at the bow, and back to the windward rail on anything below a broad reach.


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## shayw (Jul 13, 2009)

*Thanks*

Yes, the boat is rigged similar to the graphic. On this Rafiki there was not a cam cleat for the main sheet, just a horn cleat on either side of stern. Do you think a cam cleat would be better for the this set up?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

killarney_sailor said:


> The Niagara 35 has two independent mainsheets in an inverted V arrangement. I quite like the idea for a cruising boat since you can use one sheet for controlling boom location and the other for shaping the sail. Not as good as a traveller for ultimate control but just fine for cruisers who are not too enamoured of pulling strings.


Yes, this is what I meant when I posted earlier.. basic graphic below. It's somewhat different from the inverted V sheet arrangement in the picture above, in that it is two separate sheets as described and provided on the Niagara 35 among others.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Faster said:


> What strikes me as dangerous are cruising boats with no vang fitted at all.


Sorry about the hijacking of this thread...but what's dangerous about a cruising boat not having a boom vang? Neither of the cruising boats I've owned have had boom vangs and so far I haven't run into any trouble. Educate me, please!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

shayw said:


> .....Do you think a cam cleat would be better for the this set up?


A cam cleat will be easier/quicker to release and secure... so yes!



kwaltersmi said:


> Sorry about the hijacking of this thread...but what's dangerous about a cruising boat not having a boom vang? Neither of the cruising boats I've owned have had boom vangs and so far I haven't run into any trouble. Educate me, please!


My concern with no vang is when fully eased downwind, an accidental gybe can turn into a goosewing gybe because the boom is free to lift. (half of leech only actually gybes initially) When the sail finally decides which side to end up on that can be a fairly violent action. Also it's simply inefficient having the boom lift going DDW as far as drive is concerned....jmo, of course....


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The major difference between what Denise030 posted and what Faster posted is that the rig Faster posted allows you to control the position of the boom port-to-starboard, by sheeting the two tackles differently-even to the point of having the boom to windward of centerline. The boom is always going to be to leeward with the setup Denise posted. However, Faster's setup is more work when tacking...since you have to adjust both mainsheet lines.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Faster said:


> My concern with no vang is when fully eased downwind, an accidental gybe can turn into a goosewing gybe because the boom is free to lift. (half of leech only actually gybes initially) When the sail finally decides which side to end up on that can be a fairly violent action. Also it's simply inefficient having the boom lift going DDW as far as drive is concerned....jmo, of course....


Thanks Faster! We typically rig a preventer if we're running downwind for any length of time, so gybes kept in check.


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## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

Aside from the jibe, how do you handle the fact that the boom lifts when sailing downwind without a vang? Once past the end of the traveler track, the pull of the mainsheet becomes more inward than downward. Also, in stornger or gusty winds, I find that use of the vang to flatten the sail dramatically reduces heelling and provides far more efficient sailing.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

tweitz said:


> Aside from the jibe, how do you handle the fact that the boom lifts when sailing downwind without a vang? Once past the end of the traveler track, the pull of the mainsheet becomes more inward than downward. Also, in stornger or gusty winds, I find that use of the vang to flatten the sail dramatically reduces heelling and provides far more efficient sailing.


Exactly.... A preventer rigged more or less down to the rail will provide a 'vanging' function (as I suspect Kwalt does for 'longer' runs) but a gybe preventer run to the bow (as is often done) really doesn't help in that regard.

Even on a sailing dinghy like a Sabot, you'll get better efficiency and less dramatic gybes with a fixed strop for a vang to limit boom lift. A few years back in Mexico we took out on of those Hobie beach cats at a resort - no vang. On a quick broad reach I used my foot to force the boom down and picked up speed quite dramatically.

IMO a vang is as important a mainsail control as the rest.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Y'all are making me put a vang on my offseason wishlist. I'm going to blame you guys if my wife barks about buying more gear!

As Faster said, I rig my preventer down to the perforated toe rail with a snatch block, and then back to my secondary jib winch on the cockpit coaming. Seems to work great for downwind sailing. However, I'm sure reducing twist and flattening the main would improve our sailing overall, or at least give me more trim options to play with!


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## degreeoff (Oct 25, 2009)

OK now I am confused...my C-30 doesn't have one and the boom is attatched via 2 Big A$$ed Screws so it cannot lift....what about them apples?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Well today I realized my 4-1 main sheet is not up to the job. My boat got taken 90* to starboard by a big gust, I started to let everything out. traveler first, But the jib sheet caught and the genny became a balloon instead of luffing, the main sheet was so tight from the wind pressure I couldn't release it! The starboard rail was in the water for a "quick dip" my boat was heading right into the mooring field and about to t-bone a friends Catalina 30. They had just boarded the boat for a late day sail, looked up and and here comes "O doomsday"  Somehow, I popped out the mainsheet out the cam cleat, zing! Out went the boom! My boat righted herself with dignity and just calmly turned her transom to the C-30.. mostly with no real help from me.  WHEW! That, was close! uke


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

It's true that an underpowered mainsheet is a bigger liability when trying to harness the main in a breeze, esp downwind/gybing etc. Upwind it just means you can't trim the main in as much as you might like.

Giving thanks for Adrenaline, eh Denise?



degreeoff said:


> OK now I am confused...my C-30 doesn't have one and the boom is attatched via 2 Big A$$ed Screws so it cannot lift....what about them apples?


Here's for them apples  .. what you're describing is the gooseneck attachment, which is rigidly attached to your mast.. (it isn't always, but.....)

The 'boom lift' we're discussing is the way the boom pivots at the gooseneck, allowing the entire boom to swivel up creating an angle less than 90deg with the mast. We're not discussing the attachment point being raised up the mast... Once the mainsheet loses it's downward component, such as slack sheet off the wind this effect can be pronounced.. it risks the goosewing gybe as described above, and reduces 'projected area' that gives us the drag that drives the boat DDW. It also means you're unlikely to have the optimum leech tension at all times.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Why no traveler?
Another point of view.
Some hate mid boom sheeting (like bubba2). Many of today's production boats put the traveler on the coach roof to get it out of the cockpit which places your sheet at mid boom, if you want end boom sheeting and a traveler, chances are the traveler is going to be taking up a lot of room in the cockpit, or it will divide the cockpit in two, or you will be banging your shins on it, ouch. To accomplish boom-end sheeting and to eliminate the traveler in the cockpit, some have opted to place a single lead on the cockpit floor. I know somebody that swears by this for his boat and for his purposes. Of course, like anything else, it is a compromise and has its bonuses as well as its downsides.


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## degreeoff (Oct 25, 2009)

Faster said:


> It's true that an underpowered mainsheet is a bigger liability when trying to harness the main in a breeze, esp downwind/gybing etc. Upwind it just means you can't trim the main in as much as you might like.
> 
> Giving thanks for Adrenaline, eh Denise?
> 
> ...


AH HA! I see I see said the blind man....was just watching a uslesstube vid on the need for a cunningham and now it makes sense...thanks for the info!....now what is a goosewing.... (i'll google it)

Josh


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

gooseneck it's the fitting that attaches a boom to a mast. and swings up and down and sideways. some are attached to mast. some slide up and down in the mast track. 

I had a YEE HAW! moment today lol


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

degreeoff said:


> ....now what is a goosewing.... (i'll google it)
> 
> Josh


A goosewing gybe occurs if you have insufficient leech tension.. such as with no vang. Since the boom can lift so far, during the gybe if the sheet is still slack what can happen is only half the sail actually gybes, (say the lower half) and the other half doesn't quite make it - the leech becomes as "S" curve with the boom end quite high.... eventually, of course, the sail and boom decide which way they want to go, but that action can be dramatic and produce a violent gybe that is more likely to hurt/damage something/someone.

If you control the sheet throughout the gybe this is not likely to happen.. but if you leave the sheet slack and just throw the boat through a gybe, without a vang it's a possiblity.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

my bad. new word we learn everyday in sailing terminology


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

sailortjk1 said:


> Why no traveler?
> Another point of view.
> Some hate mid boom sheeting (like bubba2). Many of today's production boats put the traveler on the coach roof to get it out of the cockpit which places your sheet at mid boom, if you want end boom sheeting and a traveler, chances are the traveler is going to be taking up a lot of room in the cockpit, or it will divide the cockpit in two, or you will be banging your shins on it, ouch. To accomplish boom-end sheeting and to eliminate the traveler in the cockpit, some have opted to place a single lead on the cockpit floor. I know somebody that swears by this for his boat and for his purposes. Of course, like anything else, it is a compromise and has its bonuses as well as its downsides.


totally agreed. the PO had installed it _right on the step to the companionway_. Royal PITA to get in/out or pull the line and then rerun it etc etc etc. I just took the thing out and filled the holes.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Last week some guy was looking at my boat to buy it. (yeah right) Says "I don't like the traveler in the cockpit" He sails on a hunter that has it on the coach roof. I've been in a few races on boats with travelers and mid boom controls.. (imho) THEY SUCK! 
My Garhauer 5.5 ft traveler with lines that lead back to the helm. easy to work I really need a 6-1 mainsheet control as of yesterday's "moment"


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

D030... funny how thin the line is between a yeehaw moment and a hee haw moment... that wacky show was great.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I've always wanted to put the red line to starboard and a green line to port..but eh...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

ROFL...O'Doomsday...that would be a great name for a boat...



deniseO30 said:


> Well today I realized my 4-1 main sheet is not up to the job. My boat got taken 90* to starboard by a big gust, I started to let everything out. traveler first, But the jib sheet caught and the genny became a balloon instead of luffing, the main sheet was so tight from the wind pressure I couldn't release it! The starboard rail was in the water for a "quick dip" my boat was heading right into the mooring field and about to t-bone a friends Catalina 30. They had just boarded the boat for a late day sail, looked up and and here comes* "O doomsday"*  Somehow, I popped out the mainsheet out the cam cleat, zing! Out went the boom! My boat righted herself with dignity and just calmly turned her transom to the C-30.. mostly with no real help from me.  WHEW! That, was close! uke


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## seashine (Jun 10, 2010)

The second of the 2 rigs using blocks in a V shape is what we have on our cat - presumably because of the arch of the cabin roof. Unfortunately it means a lot of stuffing around when we tack - one sheet needs to be let go and the other pulled in and the distance between the 2 is about 4 metres! Fun when there's only one person on deck in the middle of the night...trying to sort out the headsails at the same time... Though it should be possible to sort that particular problem out in time (we've only had the boat a couple of months). We are considering installing a traveller track. The problem with that is that it would need building up so high near the ends that it could rip out if (say) we accidentally gybed. Is there a limit to the forces that could be applied through that first V shaped rig? Or isn't it worth considering because it's not possible to pull the boom out to windward? She's a 40' cat with about a 40' mast and boom about 13', with the sheet block around half way along..._and_ a vang, I'm pleased to say.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

With a powerful enough vang you should be able to go to a single tackle mainsheet... but you'll be relying more on the vang for leech tension than before.. so it has to have enough power and it's attachment points on the mast and boom have to be up to the task as well. I'd imagine the forces here could be even higher than a mono since there's little heeling, which helps to reduce overall loads on the rig.


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## ilikerust (Apr 19, 2010)

Re: the no vang issue - what if the boom is equipped with a downhaul? It prevents the forward end of the boom from lifting. 

I'm still trying to figure out the distinctions between the function of the downhaul and the vang. My boat has a downhaul going from the bottom of the gooseneck a fitting below at the bottom of the mast, with a cleat to tie it off. I also have a vang that I can attach to the boom, but have yet to do so. Maybe I need to get it out and fool around with it. 

My main sheet rigs to a traveler that goes across the stern, at the aft end of the cockpit, and up to the aft end of the boom.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

ilikerust said:


> Re: the no vang issue - what if the boom is equipped with a downhaul? It prevents the forward end of the boom from lifting.


Downhaul pulls the front of the boom down and tensions the LUFF of the mainsail.

VANG pulls the end of the boom down, flattens the mainsail, eliminates twist and tensions the LEECH of the mainsail

TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS.

The main sheet can act as a vang when you're sailing upwind to some degree...but once the main sheet is eased past a certain point, it has almost no effect on holding the boom DOWN. That's where the BOOM VANG comes into play. Because the boom vang is mounted at the mast base, its angle to the boom isn't really affected when the boom is let all the way out by the mainsheet, and it still pulls the boom DOWN.



> I'm still trying to figure out the distinctions between the function of the downhaul and the vang. My boat has a downhaul going from the bottom of the gooseneck a fitting below at the bottom of the mast, with a cleat to tie it off. I also have a vang that I can attach to the boom, but have yet to do so. Maybe I need to get it out and fool around with it.
> 
> My main sheet rigs to a traveler that goes across the stern, at the aft end of the cockpit, and up to the aft end of the boom.


If you haven't gotten it and read it, I'd highly recommend you buy Dave Seidman's book, The Complete Sailor. Check out pages 89-90 IIRC, as that section talks about sail shape and controls.


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## ilikerust (Apr 19, 2010)

Cool, thanks. Just ordered the book from half.com.


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