# ?? Pro's, Con's, on Cats for Liveabaord.. ???



## Superpickle (Oct 17, 2009)

Is a Multi hull better/worse , have nore room, easier to sail/learn ???


More/Less bang for the Buck ?

Seem to offer more Deck Garden n Picket fence for a pooch to run/skip/hop/Poop/lay on.. 

Is the Up-keep less/more/same/depends ?
and., Where do I PUT my ?U?sed Depends ??


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## scottyt (Jul 19, 2008)

they do have more room but from what i have read they are harder to heat as the heat rises out of the hulls.


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## krozet (Nov 29, 2008)

Superpickle said:


> Is a Multi hull better/worse , have nore room, easier to sail/learn ???
> 
> More/Less bang for the Buck ?
> 
> ...


You didn't use the search button did you?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

It's hard to answer someone seriously when their finger is up their nose.


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## leland515 (Sep 26, 2009)

Multihulls are bigger, faster, and more comfortable.
They do not do well in rough weather though.
They heel less, also.
But they're usually more expensive, as there aren't many secondhand ones that are old enough to be cheap yet. 
And they're not self righting.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

But they are very stable. In 2 positions.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Where will you keep the litterbox without stinking up the whole boat?


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## krozet (Nov 29, 2008)

leland515 said:


> Multihulls are bigger, faster, and more comfortable.
> They do not do well in rough weather though.
> They heel less, also.
> But they're usually more expensive, as there aren't many secondhand ones that are old enough to be cheap yet.
> And they're not self righting.


multi's dont heel...

and they are more expensive because you are buying two boats stuck together.


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## CoastalEddie (Dec 15, 2009)

bljones said:


> Where will you keep the litterbox without stinking up the whole boat?


On the poopdeck?


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## CoastalEddie (Dec 15, 2009)

krozet said:


> multi's dont heel...


Well, they do heel a little. And, it gets really exciting when they heel more than a little.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Do what sailingdog did and buy a boat with training wheels. Here's one looking like a fish out of water.


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## Superpickle (Oct 17, 2009)

mitiempo said:


> But they are very stable. In 2 positions.


*Missionary and "Doggie style*..  



> leland515 leland515 is offline
> Just a kid with a boat.
> 
> Multihulls are bigger, faster, and more comfortable.
> ...


Thank you very much, young Sir..
I was thinking about the Righting thing as well. I guess when you get a Cat @ 90 drgrees, its a 50/50 chance it WONT Right at all.. Wherass a Single hull will go Way past 90, and Flip back up fairly fast.. 
Not that I Want to be a foule weather..

OK. answers my query..  
Stink you berry mucho 
ps, I dont need no stinkin Litter box, I been Potty trained since I was 35


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## krozet (Nov 29, 2008)

Superpickle said:


> I was thinking about the Righting thing as well. I guess when you get a Cat @ 90 drgrees, its a 50/50 chance it WONT Right at all.. Wherass a Single hull will go Way past 90, and Flip back up fairly fast..
> Not that I Want to be a foule weather..


The momentum required to get a Cat too 90 degrees won't just stop at 90 degrees, the boat will go over. The chances are far greater than 50% that the boat is going all the way over. Once that happens there is virtually 0% chance of it righting itself.


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

If you want a boat that will move fast enough to get out of it's own way, have a proper nav station, a galley that you can cook in, a cockpit that will allow you to get past the wheel, and that won't force 1/2 of your family to sleep on the couch, it's what you need unless you want to get a 50' monohull. I don't think I can haul the sails on a 50' mono by myself but I can get all that on a 36' cat and still be able to manipulate all the gear solo.
Mono vs multi- monos self right but they sink sometimes. multis flip sometimes but they don't sink. It's up to you to decide if you'd rather be on an upside down cat or in a life raft after a series of major errors cumulate.


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

Oh yeah, Women LOOOOOOOVE the light inside of a cat. Also depends if you like happy women, I do.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Marina slippage will be much more on a multihull. As will haulouts and most maintenance as you have to use bigger travelifts.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Ahhhhh, the 'ol mono vs. multihull debate. That's one that never seems to get settled. 

Just to make it a little more interesting, how many of you carry firearms on your catamaran? 

No, no, no, just kidding.....really.....just kidding / don't answer that!


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

These guys are right, a catamaran won't right itself if you turn it over. Guys who make this argument never seem to mention that a monohull won't refloat itself when it sinks. It really is the same argument. Modern *cruising* multihulls don't carry enough sail area to flip over unless you do several really dumb things at the same time. It has been shown time and time again that most monohulls that get rolled, sink. Out of curiosity, I'd like anyone who has personally had their monohull PAST 90 degrees, or even TO 90 degrees to tell us the story. The force required to get most monohulls to 90 degrees is far less than the force required to get a cruising cat to 50 degrees (the point at which most cats will go over).

Unless you've been rolled in the open ocean, had the boat self right rigging in tact and motor not flooded, then sailed on to your destination with nothing to show for it but a great sea story, then please leave the flip over argument alone.
/soapbox

Now for the pros and cons as I see it.
Cats are big spacious boats. If you have non sailors with you (especially women) they will love the fact that there is very little heeling. Cats are fast. Faster passages mean you can be in the slip before the bad weather gets there. 2 engines. If one engine fails, you can still get where you're going or in the slip. You can also spin a cat around on itself. With the proper throttle and direction combined with the rudder you can actually get a cat to slide sideways up to the dock. Storage room. It's amazing how many places there are to store stuff, especially provisions. You can see out. Many cats have an amazing view from the salon. When the weather gets bad you can go inside and drive from the salon using the autopilot.

Cons. They're big. It's hard to find a slip big enough, hauling the boat will cost you as well. They don't heel. If you're not used to a cat, you may not know when you have to reef. The lack of heeling also means that you trim for the gusts because the boat won't heel over and dump the wind. 2 engines, 2 times the maintenance and replacement cost. Also 2 rudders to maintain, more complex steering linkage etc. Cats have enough storage room for just about anything, which leads to an easily overloaded boat. An overloaded cat is slower than a monohull.

There are more both pros and cons, but that's enough for now.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

A monohull will not "roll" with breeze alone, but heel to a high degree and spill the wind, round up into the wind and then come upright. A monohull needs a combination of large waves and a pretty stiff breeze to roll past 90 usually found only in the open ocean.
A catamaran on the other hand will approach 90 with breeze alone so is in a much different position. Waves approaching a height the same as the boat's beam in feet are not required as they are to roll a monohull over all the way.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

I think US27inKS, as posted above, gives a great unbiased evaluation. Most people that have monohulls or multihulls favor their boats. Certainly there are pros and cons as there seem to be compromises with all choices.


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## Superpickle (Oct 17, 2009)

Thanks again.. Im leaning toward a Morgan CC. 34 to 38+ ft.
I like the Large aft stateroom and bed and they have nice Nav stations too.
Two heads, which I will turn one into a nice large shower for Two. 
Also would like a nice Work station/ pooter orifice mabee...
Dont thimk i want ALL the bells and whistles, no need water maker. just a small on for Emerg. Morgans have nice galleys as well.
But, of course, this can all change as I learn more.. and i have LOTS and LOTS to learn , im pretty dumb now.. :-/ hehehe 
Also, Taken my meds better these days.. So, Sorry for being a Butthole.. :-\


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

mitiempo said:


> A monohull will not "roll" with breeze alone, but heel to a high degree and spill the wind, round up into the wind and then come upright. A monohull needs a combination of large waves and a pretty stiff breeze to roll past 90 usually found only in the open ocean.
> A catamaran on the other hand will approach 90 with breeze alone so is in a much different position. Waves approaching a height the same as the boat's beam in feet are not required as they are to roll a monohull over all the way.


Really??? Show me a *cruising* catamaran that carries enough sail area to be blown over with breeze alone. Every one I know of would break the mast before making that much force. If your argument were true, don't you think we would see cats upside down all over the world? In the last 5 years I can remember seeing exactly *one* cruising cat on the news upside down. The owner made several serious mistakes and was knocked down by wind AND waves. How many cruising catamarans have you seen upside down? The reason the upside down cat made the news is because the crew was sitting on top of the upside down hull. When a monohull goes upside down, it usually goes to the bottom. The only thing that makes the news is that the crew was lost at sea.

You seem to have cruising catamarans confused with beach cats and racing cats. If so, you might as well be comparing a Hunter 40 with a sunfish.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*I have found multihull slips can be cheap if you can find a shallow marina*

Typically this will be a powerboat marina, with only 3-4 of water, but the rates can be very good. Typically, as a cat settles into the mud you can't even tell... until you try to move.

In this blog post (Sail Delmarva: Search results for winter sailing) there is a photo of me floating and the boat next to me sunk... yet he has only settled a foot or so! The monohulls in the marina lean as much as 30 degrees to the side, sometimes locking masts.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I have nothing against a good multihull. To be good to me it has to be fast otherwise why bother. The cruising cat shown below is an older design but still capable of 20+ knots. There are many modern cats that can cruise and perform at the same time. The Gunboat is another one. There are fast monohulls that can achieve the performance of the older heavier cats like the Prout and others but today's higher performance cruising cats are a lot quicker.

"It has been shown time and time again that most monohulls that get rolled, sink." This is what I am taking issue with. Unless the keel falls off the boat should right, maybe with the rig gone but right side up. I can't think of one case of the boat sinking immediately after a roll and few where it happened at all.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

mitiempo said:


> "It has been shown time and time again that most monohulls that get rolled, sink." This is what I am taking issue with. Unless the keel falls off the boat should right, maybe with the rig gone but right side up. I can't think of one case of the boat sinking immediately after a roll and few where it happened at all.


The way that a monohull sinks when rolled is not from the keel falling off. Have you ever righted a turtled sailing dinghy, or even a sunfish? It's not easy nor is it fast even though your weight standing on the centerboard is proportionally more than most keels. When a monohull rolls it spends more than just a few seconds upside down. While the boat rights itself, there is usually water coming in from the companionway (even if it's closed), hatches that get blown out in the roll, etc. When (if) the boat does come back up, it's usually so heavy from the water inside that it's quickly swamped again by the same kind of waves that rolled it in the first place. After 3 or 4 good swampings after the roll, the lead keel helps it find bottom. The best thing you can hope for in a roll is to lose the rig. The boat will come back upright faster, but there's an excellent chance that the engine got swamped and will not run again. Now you are alive, but adrift.

Here's the horrible truth about what happens in a big cruising cat when the wind blows and the seas come up and you don't reef the sails.


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## krozet (Nov 29, 2008)

US27inKS said:


> The way that a monohull sinks when rolled is not from the keel falling off. Have you ever righted a turtled sailing dinghy, or even a sunfish? It's not easy nor is it fast even though your weight standing on the centerboard is proportionally more than most keels. When a monohull rolls it spends more than just a few seconds upside down. While the boat rights itself, there is usually water coming in from the companionway (even if it's closed), hatches that get blown out in the roll, etc. When (if) the boat does come back up, it's usually so heavy from the water inside that it's quickly swamped again by the same kind of waves that rolled it in the first place. After 3 or 4 good swampings after the roll, the lead keel helps it find bottom. The best thing you can hope for in a roll is to lose the rig. The boat will come back upright faster, but there's an excellent chance that the engine got swamped and will not run again. Now you are alive, but adrift.
> 
> Here's the horrible truth about what happens in a big cruising cat when the wind blows and the seas come up and you don't reef the sails.


 I stand corrected, multi's can absolutely heel! I've never heard the term 'flown a hull' before. Scary stuff.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*Funny how 2 readers can take different messages away from one vidio....*



krozet said:


> I stand corrected, multi's can absolutely heel! I've never heard the term 'flown a hull' before. Scary stuff.


Nothing horrible happened. They sailed at 9 knots. Yes, they were pressing a bit too hard if a hull flew at some point, but depending on the course and the sea state, that might not be crazy, if there was a hand on the tiller and a hand on the traveler.

Any sailor who has not "flown a hull" on a small cat should not push a big cat; the experience is lacking. I recall "hull flying" competitions back in my beach cat days. How far could you balance it? Far, and then put it down, at will.

And even so, I think I would have tucked a reef in... or perhaps not if I was actively steering.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

That video didn't look too bad to me either. But you could get in trouble if you weren't careful. All the more so in a faster cat like the Chris White designs or a Gunboat. At 15 to 20 knots things happen fast. 
As far as monohulls heeling to 90 degrees and farther it does happen in rough weather. A neighbor dipped his spreader in the water less than 15 miles from here. Another sailor from my marina is off Cape Horn as I write this. Singlehanded. He is prepared for the worst and I would expect he will see it. His boat is a Spencer 35, the same design as Hal Roth's Whisper. He spent a while in Puerto Montt and left there December 8 bound for South Georgia. He will sail 50 south to 50 south. He considers going through the channels "daysailing". I wish him the best but sure as not he'll receive a bit of a pasting.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

Even though you may have been thinking "scary stuff" while watching that video, you'll notice that neither of the men on the boat seem the least bit concerned. Maybe they should have been concerned, but I doubt it. The force required to put a cruising cat to 30 degrees is roughly 2.5 times the force required to put a monohulls mast in the water. You can do it if you try, but these things are big and heavy. The reason many people equate "catamaran" with "flip over" is from seeing beach cats do it, and racing cats on tv. It's not the same thing.


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## gershel (Feb 4, 2001)

night0wl said:


> Marina slippage will be much more on a multihull. As will haulouts and most maintenance as you have to use bigger travelifts.


Where do you people get your information? I have had my 36' catamaran for 12 years, been on 3 round trips to FL from the Ches., and not once did I ever pay more for dockage, nor would I. More for a travel lift? I pay by the foot, like every one else. Why do people like you listen to all the "trash talk" from the marina "know it alls". The biggest expense with cats is the initial price, and more maintainance, but cat owners know this going in, and still choose the cat.
Marc


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

I have never paid more for a marina, or lift in 8 years of travel from St. Maarten to Florida.

I don't think it is so much the weight, but the size of the footprint that makes the cat stable. Imagine is 46ft., and under 16,00lbs. Put your feet together, and let someone push you from the side, and then spread your feet shoulder width, and let them push.

Cats are a compromise like any boat. What they do offer will keep me from owning another mono, unless I was to sail the Southern Ocean. I think US27 did a great job on his description of pros & cons. Possibly after his vacation he is thinking of joining the darkside of sailing?. :laugher  ..........*i2f*


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd point you to the post I wrote about *multihulls*...


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Here's a good old cat for sale. Needs a little work but a bargain @ 30k
Used to be owned by Jed Clampett.
1968 Polynesian Concept Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

US27inKS said:


> These guys are right, a catamaran won't right itself if you turn it over. Guys who make this argument never seem to mention that a monohull won't refloat itself when it sinks. It really is the same argument. Modern *cruising* multihulls don't carry enough sail area to flip over unless you do several really dumb things at the same time. It has been shown time and time again that most monohulls that get rolled, sink. Out of curiosity, I'd like anyone who has personally had their monohull PAST 90 degrees, or even TO 90 degrees to tell us the story. The force required to get most monohulls to 90 degrees is far less than the force required to get a cruising cat to 50 degrees (the point at which most cats will go over).
> 
> *Unless you've been rolled in the open ocean, had the boat self right rigging in tact and motor not flooded, then sailed on to your destination with nothing to show for it but a great sea story, then please leave the flip over argument alone*.


That's an interesting request which implies that you are qualified to enter the argument. Perhaps you would like to share with us the event that qualifies you to do so?

You ask for those who have been to or past 90 degrees roll with a mono and survived to tell you their story. I have done that before on this board so others who may have read it please excuse me if I bore you.

We hade a good old blow and seas of 30 odd feet and we got three quarters of the way up the face of the wave when to top broke. Six feet of white water smacked into the side of the boat and rolled it on it's side to a point where the wind instruments went into the water in the trough of the wave. So we reckon we went well past 90 degrees and the boat stood straight back up. The engine was running at the time, continued running and is still OK today (two years later).

The cockpit was filled to the brim with brine and only about 200 litres found it's way through the gaps in the washboards before the cockpit drains did their work. So that answers your request.

The reason why "guys who make this this argument never seem to mention that a monohull won't refloat itself when it sinks" is because the vast majority that get rolled don't sink. I know personally of two people who rolled their boats off the east coast of South Africa and made it to the next port, one under a jury rig the other under motor. There are hundreds of accounts of monohulls being rolled an pitch-poled and rarely do they sink. I can't recall reading about any cruising cat being flipped and turned back up again.

I do agree that a cruising yacht would have to be pushed pretty hard to flip on just wind. But it can happen, I believe. Witness the fact that most cruising yachts have escape ports provided under the boat to get you out when upside down. That can't just be paranoia.

Whilst I am not a cat supporter, I also want to comment on the maintenenace issues of a cat due to it's width. It is true that lift-outs and slips are often a problem because of width but a cat can easily be anti-fouled on a beach with just some sizeable wooden blocks under the hulls as the tide ebbs. This also goes for undewater maintenance like replacing skin fittings, anodes, prop maintenance, etc. If the tides are right you often have a good few hours dry to do the work. So in real terms cats are more easily maintained from a cruising perspective than any monohull. Sadly.


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## CoastalEddie (Dec 15, 2009)

Siamese said:


> Ahhhhh, the 'ol mono vs. multihull debate. That's one that never seems to get settled.


And, since Siamese posted this dead-on insight, this thread had made SOOOOO much progress toward a resolution. Perhaps, first, we should take on a conflict in which the opposing parties are slightly less entrenched --- like that little Israeli-Palestinian thing.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I agree with omatako. I have had a friend get salt water in his spreader light and it takes 90 degrees of heel to do that. The Smeetons were pitchpoled on the way to the Horn and lost most of the cabin structure. They didn't sink and after repairs sailed on. Some years later they did round the horn. Many able monohulls sailing offshore have been to 90 degrees and after a clean-up have sailed on, many without any damage. If sailing in many places this is to be expected. I'm not against multihulls but not a slow one that sails at the same speed or slightly faster than a monohull. It would have to take advantage of a multihull's speed advantages. Otherwise why bother. If you're going to put up with less payload may as well make it worthwhile. Below is a Gunboat 48 at about 15 knots tacking through 88 degrees. At the helm a 13 year old Nick Johnstone. All powered up and hand on the sheets. This is a cruising cat and a luxurious one at that.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

Omatako said:


> That's an interesting request which implies that you are qualified to enter the argument. Perhaps you would like to share with us the event that qualifies you to do so?
> 
> You ask for those who have been to or past 90 degrees roll with a mono and survived to tell you their story. I have done that before on this board so others who may have read it please excuse me if I bore you.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. Please do then tell everyone you meet that cats flip over and are unsafe. I'm glad that you made it out of your ordeal safely.



> The reason why "guys who make this this argument never seem to mention that a monohull won't refloat itself when it sinks" is because the vast majority that get rolled don't sink. I know personally of two people who rolled their boats off the east coast of South Africa and made it to the next port, one under a jury rig the other under motor. There are hundreds of accounts of monohulls being rolled an pitch-poled and rarely do they sink. I can't recall reading about any cruising cat being flipped and turned back up again.


You wouldn't see any stories of cats righting themselves would you? That's a bit absurd isn't it? That is however the argument that is made by many is that cats are unsafe because they don't right themselves, but cats also don't sink unless you break them into small pieces. I've never seen anyone on your side of the mono vs cats argument mention the number of monos that sink, only that it's *possible* for a cat to flip. I've never had anyone give a first or second hand account of a cat flipping. Perhaps you could be the first. You seem to sail in pretty rough seas if you and 2 others you know have been past 90 degrees. How many cats do you have first or second hand knowledge of being flipped? How many mono owners do you know that have sunk or been lost at sea?



> I do agree that a cruising yacht would have to be pushed pretty hard to flip on just wind. But it can happen, I believe. Witness the fact that most cruising yachts have escape ports provided under the boat to get you out when upside down. That can't just be paranoia.


Every modern cruising cat has escape hatches that I know of. I believe in many countries they are legally required to have them. I believe that most of this was driven by older, less stable designs that did flip more easily. These older designs were also known to break apart because the central structure was not properly engineered.



> Whilst I am not a cat supporter, I also want to comment on the maintenenace issues of a cat due to it's width. It is true that lift-outs and slips are often a problem because of width but a cat can easily be anti-fouled on a beach with just some sizeable wooden blocks under the hulls as the tide ebbs. This also goes for undewater maintenance like replacing skin fittings, anodes, prop maintenance, etc. If the tides are right you often have a good few hours dry to do the work. So in real terms cats are more easily maintained from a cruising perspective than any monohull. Sadly.


Here is a monohull that suffered the exact fate that I posted earlier. The boat was rolled, a port blew out, the boat filled with water and cooked the electrics. As a result the engine did not run and the bilge pump didn't work. This man lost his boat and had a 99% chance of being lost at sea. Dumb luck saved him twice in the same incident.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

US27inKS said:


> Fair enough. Please do then tell everyone you meet that cats flip over and are unsafe. I'm glad that you made it out of your ordeal safely.


I don't hold the view that cats flip and are unsafe and I don't believe that anything in my post headed in that direction. But the irrefutable truth remains that if a cat flips in the middle of nowhere, it's probably all over. The fact that it continues to float is not necessarily a benefit because you can only survive for so long on a inverted cat and one thing is for sure - an inverted cat is going nowhere fast.

Also the fact that there are far less less reports of cats getting into trouble than monohulls has probably got less to do with the intrinsic safety of cats than it has with the fact that an extremely small minority of voyaging sailors choose cats in preference to monohulls.



US27inKS said:


> Here is a monohull that suffered the exact fate that I posted earlier. The boat was rolled, a port blew out, the boat filled with water and cooked the electrics. As a result the engine did not run and the bilge pump didn't work. This man lost his boat and had a 99% chance of being lost at sea. Dumb luck saved him twice in the same incident.


You apparently know more about this incident than the video clip tells because none of the purported events surrounding the incident are mentioned in the clip. What I can't understand is why a port would blow out because a boat rolls. My logic, however flawed it may be, tells me that pressure would be on the outside of the port and port glass is fitted from the outside. How does it blow in?

I'm going to stop now because this is becoming a thread hijack. My question above are strictly rhetorical.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I agree with omatako - I didn't get much out of the video except how grateful he was to be rescued. I also don't know how the port could get blown out (in?) unless it was suspect to start with. While I don't have much against cats, especially the ones that can perform well, I also disagree that if you roll a monohull it's all over. Here's an example of one who survived a rollover and dismasting. He went on to complete his circumnavigation including the rounding of Cape Horn in his Alberg 30. All about Yves
Any boat whether it has 1,2. or 3 hulls should be fully able to handle the weather expected on a trip. If that trip crosses oceans, especially in high latitudes, best to plan for the worst.


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## US27inKS (Feb 6, 2005)

OK sorry guys. It just irks me when I see someone ask a question about the suitability of a cat for a liveaboard cruiser, and someone pops off with comment about not righting itself when it flips. It's as if it's a foregone conclusion that at some point in every cats life, you'll find yourself upside down. It takes about 2.5 times the force to flip a cat than a mono, and I would bet that 99.99 percent of all monohulls are never rolled in their life, but the first thing some guys say about a cat is "they flip over". I just don't get it.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

mitiempo said:


> I agree with omatako - I didn't get much out of the video except how grateful he was to be rescued. I also don't know how the port could get blown out (in?) unless it was suspect to start with. While I don't have much against cats, especially the ones that can perform well, I also disagree that if you roll a monohull it's all over. Here's an example of one who survived a rollover and dismasting. He went on to complete his circumnavigation including the rounding of Cape Horn in his Alberg 30. All about Yves
> Any boat whether it has 1,2. or 3 hulls should be fully able to handle the weather expected on a trip. If that trip crosses oceans, especially in high latitudes, best to plan for the worst.


Don't know if it's supposed to be, but your picture isn't an Alberg 30.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

It's not supposed to be, but the link is.


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