# Sensible Cruising



## vega1860

"...concerning the Chinese and Sandwich Islanders"

There is a book by Don Casey entitled “Sensible Cruising, the Thoreau Approach”. I had already owned my boat for several years and developed my own ideas about cruising by the time I first read it. I don’t agree entirely with everything Casey has to say; today, I would expand his minimum requirements to include things like a handheld GPS unit for example because two such units are less costly and far more accurate than a cheap sextant and the necessary tables, and let’s face it: How many people nowadays have the math skills to perform the calculations without electronic help? But Casey and co-author Lew Hackler make some good points about when to stop buying and installing new gear and dreaming about a bigger and better boat and get going.

By way of disclaimer I acknowledge that my thinking has been strongly influenced by H.D.T. if not Casey (One of my favorite authors BTW). It is my opinion that too much stuff just gets in the way of the basic enjoyment of life. How many people do you know that are slaves to their possessions and don’t even know it? It is a sad thing that so many people never fulfill their dream of cruising because they never quite have enough stuff or a big enough boat to hold it all.

So let us discuss on this thread the minimum requirements for successful cruising, short term and long term. I am not talking about sailing around the world in a peapod. Physical comfort and adequate supplies are, in my opinion, among the necessities, but I can state categorically that the right 26 or 27 footer is perfectly adequate, and in some cases ideal, for a couple to live and cruise in long-term. Also, let's not limit the discussion to gear, things you can buy. Consider skills, mindset, attitudes and other intangibles.

What would you consider the minimum requirements and where is the tipping point between sufficient and too much.

Malie ke kai


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## tdw

While it's a subject that has been much debated previously methinks it's a topic that always attracts some interest. 

I had a friend who cruised quite extensively in a 26'er and at the time he was positively obsessed with the idea that the perfect cruising boat was sub 30'. I crewed on that boat offshore for a short while and what became very apparent is that out at sea you really do need less than if you are e.g. marina hopping. 

Nonethless I did find his boat and our PB which was 28' to be a bit tight on for space. I'd also note that my friend is now out there on a 60' ketch and the last I heard of him he was madly trying to find crew. I think he went from slightly less than sublime to the ridiculous. On the other LOA is not necessarily the best gauge of a boats size. 

My point of reference is "can the two of us handle this" and in an emergency "can one of us do it" ? That of course ignores the financial situation and whether or not you can keep the systems going without too much outside assistance.


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## Plumper

Much of the decision on what is the minimum depends on the area to be cruised. I suggest that cruising in tropical areas in a 26 foot boat is not the same as cruising in Alaska in the same boat. In areas where most of your time can be spent on deck, a smaller boat may be more than adequate but if your cruising goals are more northern wilderness than tropical harbours, being able to get inside becomes pretty important. 
Similarly, cruising in high lats lessens or eliminates the need for refrigeration. 

Gaz


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## Stillraining

*Whatever boat, skills or equipment*

you have ..I think it is important to have an extra forestay...


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## xort

Duration plays a big part I think. I could easily live frugally if I'm on a one year sabatical. We're shooting for an open ended cruise of very long duration. In order to make that work, I think we'll need more than the basics. A bit more comfort but more importantly a bit of space to stretch out in, gain a bit more privacy and more storage for toys, hobbies, books, DVD's or whatever 'stuff' makes the time pass. I'm looking forward to some good fishing. That takes a bit of gear plus a good sized dink/motor. Need a bigger boat for carrying that.
I'm not purely a 'sailor' but rather a boater who enjoys sailing as PART of the experience.
But that's just me, takes all kinds, eh?


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## CharlieCobra

The versatility is one of the things I like about my boat with the forestay and headstay layout with the yawl rig. I can't see spending a lot of time in a sub 30' boat. Mine an old school 35' LOD with no quarter berths (classic cabin) and it's as small as I care to deal with.


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## vega1860

Stillraining said:


> you have ..I think it is important to have an extra forestay...


Hear hear! WE now carry 200 feet of 1/4 inch Amsteel


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## Plumper

Why did you choose Amsteel?

Regarding boat size, one of my problems is berth size. Being 6'6" I chose my boat because of its bunk lengths not boat size. I think that the fun on a sailboat is inversely proportional to size.


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## mjrogers

Chuck, I truly enjoyed your website and can't wait for more. 

All, I agree with most of the statements above pertaining to where the boat will be used and having things to elevate the experience from existence to truly living. Still, I find that the less things and complications I have the happier I become. 

My wife to be and I are divesting ourselves of virtually everything. We will store what few heirlooms we have with the plan to cruise as long as it is fun. At first it was a bit of a struggle to get rid of things but as the process continues we feel more and more unburdened.

I like the attitude of Lin and Larry Pardey, Don Casey, "H. D. T.", the crew of Lealea, and the crew of Atom: Go simple, go small, go now. This is how I wish to live and cruise. Remember, there comes a point in life where you no longer own things but things begin to own you.

Now I just have to convince my love that we don't need 38' with AC and refrigeration...
Michael


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## vega1860

Plumper said:


> Why did you choose Amsteel?
> 
> Regarding boat size, one of my problems is berth size. Being 6'6" I chose my boat because of its bunk lengths not boat size. I think that the fun on a sailboat is inversely proportional to size.


Amsteel or Dyneema is stronger than steel yet it is light and flexible as any other 1/4 inch rope. Easy to work with, and easy to stow. Far easier to replace a broken stay or shroud with amsteel than wire and stronger too. The drawbacks are less resistance to chafe and UV.

I had a friend in Honolulu who dreamed of cruising someday. He had the same problem with headroom. Got an old wooden thing that sailed like the Mayflower and was nearly as old. He eventually wound up selling it and moving to North Dakota


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## sailingdog

It has a lot more to do with mindset and expectations than anything else IMHO. There are people who are in cruising for the travel, the voyages between destinations and such... and then there are people who see a sailboat as an alternative to air travel and feel that there is no reason to do without all the conveniences of home: hot and cold running water, push to flush toilets, microwave ovens, HD large screen TVs, etc.

Personally, I choose to use my boat as a refuge from a lot of the materialism and conspicuous consumption of the rat race... and don't see a need to have a 40'+ beastie... especially when my boat can run most of those 40' beasties down without me even trying. 

I have Sensible Cruising, and like the approach and mindset it has about cruising.... far better than what is the focus of most of the modern sailing press, where you have to have a $300,000 boat to safely cross oceans... BS... small boats have been crossing oceans for a long, long time. The main reason that the mainstream sailing press panders to the larger boats is that is where the advertising money is. It takes almost as much time to make a good <30' sailboat as it does to make a >35' sailboat, and the prices you can reasonably get people to pay for them are so much smaller, as are the profit margins. Some one might pay $100,000 for a 28-30' boat, brand new... but a 40' would be $250,000-300,000 of the same build quality.


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## Plumper

vega1860 said:


> I had a friend in Honolulu who dreamed of cruising someday. He had the same problem with headroom. Got an old wooden thing that sailed like the Mayflower and was nearly as old. He eventually wound up selling it and moving to North Dakota


Alas, I have resigned myself to the fact that I will never stand upright inside boats. After 30 year's in the Navy (most of it crouched) and after 4 years as skipper of a 102' ketch (bunks too short) I have decided to sit down while inside boats.

There are two places in my boat where I can stand naturally, under the hatch in the galley and under the hatch in the pilothouse.

Bummer!


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## Valiente

We are currently equipping a boat for long-term (five years, we hope) cruising and we face these questions every day. Capacity isn't so much an issue as it's a steel full-keeler of some 40 feet on deck, 42 LOA. We are going for some complexity in the energy-self-sufficiency department because we'll have a child aboard, and I write for a living, necessitating some way to stay in touch offshore to run in a minor way my business and to transmit and receive educational materials for our kid. 

We will also be renting out the house as two flats, and while I will assign to a manager the general landlording duties, I will have to approve expeditures, file house taxes, monitor utilities, etc. 

Generally, we are moving into a fairly rarefied subset of cruisers: the anchoring-out, lone wolf types, and the equipment list is reflecting this.

Stuff we won't have: Air conditioning on the hook, a diesel genset, a fully electric windlass, a RIB, a 9.9 HP outboard, cockpit lockers, huge alternators, bow thrusters, electric winches, davits, two heads, dedicated nav displays, satphone.

Stuff we will have/already have: Espar heating for offshore, Mermaid A/C plus heat if we are on shore power; a Honda gas genset, a custom arch for comms, shade and 3 or 4 large solar panels; 4 x 8D AGMs; wind generator that can be towed, like a Duo-Gen; two tenders (Portabote and nesting dinghy) stowed on deck; small workshop forward; 2000 W inverter/charger; foot pumps for water; only one head; PC-based nav display; extensive fuel filtering, a separate polish tank; new water tanks; manual-optional windlass; four anchors; multiple rodes; feathering prop, large inventory of spares.

The idea is to stay independent of the shore when desirable in order to reduce costs. I don't object to tying up in a marina now and then, but it runs counter to our ideals of self-sufficient cruising. I would rather get more months of zero-sum cruising (the house rental will pay down the mortgage, the utilities and probably my diesel bills, and I can afford $25K/year for our trip, which is plenty if I'm not eating ashore every night) than to have a gold-plated trip. We may haul out for a season in New Zealand to put our boy in school and do maintenance halfway through our trip.

Beth Leonard's "Voyager's Handbook" is very good at laying out the different styles of cruising: the totally budget "do it now with what you've got" idea all the way to the high-life style found in the Caribbean. Our boat, and our plans, are more "Ocean Navigator" oriented, because we intend to go off the beaten track a little farther...we haven't ruled out high-latitude sailing as the boat is built for it.

Anyway, that's where we are now: making complex adjustments in order to have a simple life aboard.


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## vega1860

Michael, I'm glad you liked our website. Your wife can talk to my wife if it will help. We are quite comfortable on our boat, I can assure you. We just don't have a lot of room to roam around or store things we don't need. And did you know that, In Hawaii they say that you aren't really a cruiser if Lin and Larry Pardee haven't bummed a tow from you?

Sailingdog - very astute. Magazines are in business to make money and subscription fees generally only just barely pay the postage. Operating costs, salaries and profits all come from advertisers. The job of the magazine is to convince you to buy what the advertisers are selling. If you've never bought magazine advertising you may not realize that editorial support is often part of the package. In other words, if Acme boats buys a half page add in Crackerjack Sailor Magazine, chances are that there will also be a favorable article about the new Acme 44 Magnum Supercruiser in the same issue. Ad salesmen will often offer a cover photo and feature article as an inducement to an advertiser to buy a full page or inside cover ad for a number that starts with $ and ending in many zeros. In my former working life I had a good friend in the "Public Relations" department of a major corporation who was paid a lot of $$ to make sure her company's products got favorable treatment from the press.

Magazines, radio and TV of course, movies and even books are infiltrated with subtle and some not so subtle marketing messages to convince you that you need somebody's product. If that weren't enough, they also spend a ton of money on lobbyists to make sure you continue to have access to easy credit so that if you don't have the cash you can still buy the product.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not some anti-corporation hippie. I know who signed the paychecks and where the profits came from that enabled me to retire at 58 (From a job in sales and marketing) I also know that most companies provide products and services that genuinely benefit the public. I'm truly glad that there is a West Marine store down the street. I'm just sayin'.....

That Acme 44 Magnum at $XXX,000.99 won't take you any farther than a Pearson Triton or Albin Vega you can buy for $10,000 or less and will probably have blisters in two years, which the Triton or Vega will not.

Malie ke kai


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## vega1860

Valiente said:


> We are currently equipping a boat for long-term (five years, we hope) cruising and we face these questions every day. Capacity isn't so much an issue as it's a steel full-keeler of some 40 feet on deck, 42 LOA. We are going for some complexity in the energy-self-sufficiency department because we'll have a child aboard, and I write for a living, necessitating some way to stay in touch offshore to run in a minor way my business and to transmit and receive educational materials for our kid.
> 
> We will also be renting out the house as two flats, and while I will assign to a manager the general landlording duties, I will have to approve expeditures, file house taxes, monitor utilities, etc.
> 
> Generally, we are moving into a fairly rarefied subset of cruisers: the anchoring-out, lone wolf types, and the equipment list is reflecting this.
> 
> Stuff we won't have: Air conditioning on the hook, a diesel genset, a fully electric windlass, a RIB, a 9.9 HP outboard, cockpit lockers, huge alternators, bow thrusters, electric winches, davits, two heads, dedicated nav displays, satphone.
> 
> Stuff we will have/already have: Espar heating for offshore, Mermaid A/C plus heat if we are on shore power; a Honda gas genset, a custom arch for comms, shade and 3 or 4 large solar panels; 4 x 8D AGMs; wind generator that can be towed, like a Duo-Gen; two tenders (Portabote and nesting dinghy) stowed on deck; small workshop forward; 2000 W inverter/charger; foot pumps for water; only one head; PC-based nav display; extensive fuel filtering, a separate polish tank; new water tanks; manual-optional windlass; four anchors; multiple rodes; feathering prop, large inventory of spares.
> 
> The idea is to stay independent of the shore when desirable in order to reduce costs. I don't object to tying up in a marina now and then, but it runs counter to our ideals of self-sufficient cruising. I would rather get more months of zero-sum cruising (the house rental will pay down the mortgage, the utilities and probably my diesel bills, and I can afford $25K/year for our trip, which is plenty if I'm not eating ashore every night) than to have a gold-plated trip. We may haul out for a season in New Zealand to put our boy in school and do maintenance halfway through our trip.
> 
> Beth Leonard's "Voyager's Handbook" is very good at laying out the different styles of cruising: the totally budget "do it now with what you've got" idea all the way to the high-life style found in the Caribbean. Our boat, and our plans, are more "Ocean Navigator" oriented, because we intend to go off the beaten track a little farther...we haven't ruled out high-latitude sailing as the boat is built for it.
> 
> Anyway, that's where we are now: making complex adjustments in order to have a simple life aboard.


The advantage of a forty footer is (a) more room for crew. (b) Longer on the waterline = faster = shorter passages. Guard against the temptation to drag along too much stuff. Given that you have offspring to bring along, it makes sense.
Heating: A bigger boat requires more complex and therefore more vulnerable to failure, systems. Bring lots of warm clothes. WE find that a single burner Origo alcohol heater does us just fine. WE use a 5200 BTU electric heater from West Marine while plugged in at the dock. Another advantage of a small boat.

Solar panels, wind generator: you'll need them at sea and on the hook. Gas gensets=Bad. annoy everybody.

Fuel system: Possibly unnecessary complications. (But I could be wrong)

PC Based navigation: Good for planning, otherwise - Bad. Prone to failure and may give false sense of security. be sure you have complete, up-to-date paper charts and plotting tools and know how to use them. Also have at least one hand held GPS with plenty of spare batteries. Disclosure: I have Garmin software and GPS interface on my PC but I NEVER use it for navigation while under way.

While I'm on a roll (Or rant as it were); Navigation necessities, In my opinion of course, are:

Good quality steering compass.

Another good quality steering compass.

Two or more hand held GPS units. These don't have to be fancy as long as they give you the basic data - lat, long, speed. We have one Garmin GPS76 and two GPS 38s. Total cost about $400. You MUST (In my opinion) have GPS unit(s) that operate independently of the ship's power supply and not too fancy lest yo be tempted to forego real charts.

Depth sounder. Even a lead line. A necessity when anchoring and very helpful when you are sailng where you shouldn't be

Current NOAA or Admiralty paper charts. Expensive but no prudent navigator would think of going to sea without them.

Plotting tools. I use a Jeppeson aviation style rotating plotter/protractor and a Field Artillery plotting square, a 18" steel ruler and a set of traditional brass dividers. #4 pencils don't smear like #2s do. These work for me because I'm used to them and know how to use them. (My life story can come later) I don't like parallel rulers or yachtman's plotters but you might find they suit you. Use what works for you but be damned sure you know how to use the tools that you choose.

Tide and current tables. Paper, not on your laptop. (Again, electronic is OK for planning but it is not a substitute for a book printed on paper)

Good quality binoculars. 7X50

Hand bearing compass.

A good stong hand held spotlight with it's own battery, not one that depends on the ships power.

Log. A device that tells you your speed through the water. Record speed, time and compass heading in your Logbook or deck log at regular intervals to determine your DR position.

Chronometer. Really a good wristwatch will do and I don't mean a Rolex. We each have a Rolex and neither of them keep good enough time for navigation. Any decent quartz watch will be superior. If it has a stopwatch function so much the better.

Logbook. To record our position fixes to facilitate dead (Or ded) reckoning.

Any additional information about your cruising grounds you can get. Charlie's Charts, Wagonners, Yachtsman's chart books, whatever.

Sextant. Eh... not so much. For the price of one cheap sextant you can buy two cheap GPS units that will be far more accurate than any position you can get with a sextant from the deck of a small boat, and by "Small boat" I mean anything under 200 feet on deck. (On Endeavour, 151 ft LOA, the best I could do was a cocked hat ten miles across. My GPS 76 typically gives a position within one boatlength of my Vega27) Bear in mind also that, on our recent Pacific crossing we did not see the sun, let alone moon or stars, for five weeks. Sextant's no good under those conditions Buckwheat. Then there are the tables and almanac you will need along with the sextant. Skip the sextant and buy three handheld GPS units and plenty of batteries with the money you save. Keep a log and fall back on DR in the unlikely event that all three of your GPS units fail.

OK, I admit I have a sextant, and HO 249 and almanac. Mostly I use the sextant turned sideways to take bearings for coastal navigation. Then check my position plot with the GPS.

Whoops! Looks like I got off on a tangent there. Sorry I just thought I had something to say and my fingers went off on their own. Not aimed at anyone in particular you understand. Well, not after I got started on navigation anyway. It's just that I have strong feelings about computer based navigation. All well and good until the batteries go flat or the salt spray gets into the works then it's a dark and stormy night and the laptop won't reboot and that's when the screaming starts. And it's "My mother warned me not to go to sea!", and "What do you MEAN you don't have a satelite phone?!?!?!?" and then it's "What'll we DOOOoooooooooooo!!!!!!!?!?!?!? and that's when the cat stars wailing and throwing up in your slippers.

Now, If it was me, I would calmly light up a cigar (Punch double corona, maduro, of course), fire up my number two or three GPS unit, verify my DR plot on my paper chart and authoritatively say "Bring in the Jenny and hoist the number 2 jib. Take another reef in the main and lay 'er on the starboard tack at 040."

But that's just me.

Malie ke kai


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## tdw

We'll call her Womboat 1, even though I'd had a couple of other boats before her but she was the first, let's say serious cruising boat in my life. She was a 28' glass sloop basically a copy of a Herreschoff (sp ?) H28. Inexpensive but sound, simple systems, easily handled and maintenance was relatively simple and not a killer financially. The longest periods I spent on her continuously were measured in weeks not months or years and for me their were some insurmountable problems principally in the areas of stowage space and tankage. If all I had wanted her for was to cruise the waters of tropical Oceania she would have been fine for a young bloke by himself but as I yearned to travel to colder climates where one spends more time down below than up top she was simply to tight, particularly when it became two of us. I had to sell her eventualy, mainly because of work commitments and was a non owner for a few years.

Womboat 2, (Silver Raven), the current hole in the water, is a 34' steel sloop. She was bought as a toe back in the water which thankfully has worked out rather well. Stowage space in still a tad limited but the tankage issue is overcome. Systems still pretty simple, more expensive to maintain but certainly not outrageous. Again we've been using her for weeks at a time and in general are quite comfortable but I'm not as young as I once was and find some issues such as getting in and out of a V-berth, when someone else is asleep in same, to be mildly irksome. Again these are problems that are more of a nuisance in cold weather than hot.

Val has summed it up quite well when he speaks of being part of the 'go it alone, anchor out brigade' a club of which we are also aspiring members. While I love being able to pull into waterfront settlements for the odd night of eating out and drinking at the local we want to be able to spend a lot of time out of reach of civilisation, as far as that is possible in this overcrowed world. I do make the point that for us being away from the madding crowds is as much, if not more about 'vanting to be alone' as it to reduce costs. 

So we are now looking for Womboat 3 and here I think we need to be damn careful. Our sights are set on 40' and we are very much trying to keep that as a maximum size knowing just how expensive the gear becomes for every extra foot. In fact, not just the cost of the gear but also the handling thereof noting as well that the bigger the boat the more difficult she is to berth, or indeed to find a berth. (by that I mean temporary berth in ports away from home.) I dare say that W3s systems will also be fairly simple compared to what we have seen on new boats as we browse around the odd boatshow. On the other hand she will have a galley that will suffice, an in port bunk that I can get in and out of without the Houdini contortions and a head that is roomy enough for hot showers on a cold day. 

Yes I know that for some this is more than is required and for others is still not enough but it does seem to be a good fit for us. What she will cost is still unknown but it will be most certainly a damn sight less than it is possible to spend. I also know that we could find something a bit cheaper than we will probably end up spending and that the cheaper boat would do the job but we have a budget amount set aside that leaves us adequate funds for living expenses and maintenance. 

Both of us are big readers and books take up a lot of space, we both like cooking so wish for better galley and pantry so that we can keep enough stores on board to last far longer away than Raven is capable of. If we find ourselves holed up somewhere cold and wet a generous degree of self sufficiency is going to be important. 

So that's it. I'm not one to go knocking others whose concepts are different to mine. The folk who bought W1 cruised her far more extensively than I did and where more than happy with her although they have since moved on to something bigger. They made some changes to her living arrangements that suited them and gave them more stowage space than I had on her but in so doing they created a cabin that I would feel hopelessy cramped in. On Raven we have essentially reduced a double quarter cabin into stowage space and a single berth. That takes away the potential for stay aboard guests but that is an extremely low priority for us so no problem. Other people would find 40' too small though I don't neccessarily agree with their conclusions.

ps - I like the thing about the Pardey's bumming tows. So much for engineless cruising .


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## Jim H

I believe you hinted at an interesting view on this topic in the original post: you had already owned your boat for several years and made up your mind about many things.

Sometimes I think it's a mistake for "new" sailors to spend much time online reading about "my new 44 footer" and "I'm so glad we're not smashed in the 28 footer any more." If you took this at face value, it would seem like no one would cruise anywhere on a smaller boat.

It's obvious that only a percentage of cruisers are going to stay with a smaller boat for all of their sailing lives, but that doesn't mean that starting with a smaller boat isn't a bad idea. The best way to find out is to have a cool Vega 27 for a couple of years, and find out. 

We were perfectly happy chartering an Islander 28 with two kids aboard, and I think we could have cruised for a month in Puget Sound on her. We did similar trips on our C&C 27, and that affected the "size discussion" of our next boat purchase (a 34 foot) for our growing kids. 

Anyway, I think too many of us "over research" boats and should simply buy small to begin (something we can easily afford) with the idea of letting go of it in a year or two if it's not a right fit. The idea of "getting the lifetime boat," especially at the start, is pretty misleading.

Sensible Cruising is a great book, even if it could use an update. (Disclaimer-- I have been pushing my brother to find an Albin Vega for his next boat.)


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## Maine Sail

*My take..*

Fortunately, for my own sanity, I don't worship one author or another and read them all. After over 34+ years on the water I've been lucky enough to find what works for me and I think this is the most important. I've done it both ways, old school and new, and everywhere in between..

From ages 6 through 12 I sailed extensively with my parents and grandparents to places far and wide. Most of this time was spend in old boats with either no or very little electrical systems and usually no propulsion.

We navigated the old fashioned way and used old brass oil lamps as running lights. The decks always leaked and the boat always smelled musty despite exquisite care as they were wood canvas. I grew to both enjoy this simplicity and to hate it.

Fast forward: From ages 12 to 24 I sailed on literally 60-70 different sail boats on deliveries and working as crew and also many different power boats also as either first mate or crew. Many were "fancy" for their day but not by todays standards.

For some strange reason I am always the default mechanical or person folks turn to when systems or equipment fail so I have a fair amount of experience in this department as well.

What I've learned:

I like pressure water but I back it up with foot pumps.

I like GPS/Plotters but always carry two spares and back these up with real charts, compass and DR and off shore a sextant.

I like solar panels and simple battery systems with a battery monitor such as a link 10. I do not like gen sets of any kind including the small Honda's.

I like roller furling and prefer a main sail with a minimum of three reef points.

I like a decent amount of chain on my anchoring system and keep two complete rode sets, beyond my primary, on board.

I don't like electric windlasses. I've fixed far to many thus I now use a manual windlass when and if I ever need it.

I like to have a stereo on board and use an iPod to supply music to it. Properly installed car stereos have worked very well for me and I've never had one fail.

I use radar and prefer a mast mount for performance. Unfortunately I have a stern pole on this boat that I will be converting to a mast mount as soon as I get the chance.

Racing and cruising techniques do work well & blend together well.

I prefer a dry bilge. nuff said

I carry many spares. nuff said

I use a radar reflector.

I don't like metal winch handles and prefer the Titan plastic floating handles.

I don't like 5200 or Silicone and use them very, very carefully.

I don't like exterior teak and I'm far to anal to let it go gray..

I like Tef-Gel, Lanocote, McLube, Boeshield & P.B. Blaster & feel WD-40 is the most overrated product ever produced.

I have davits and like them but NOT in rough weather! They are not however a necessity for me just a luxury.

I like tinned marine grade wire and adhesive lined heat shrink and use it.

I like fuses.

I don't like fancy alternator/regulator systems (had two fail) and prefer a standard large alternator of the maximum size for my belt.

I carry a spare regulator.

I prefer proper sea cocks and AWAB or better hose clamps doubled up.

I like depth sounders but have no use for a speed log.

I like my wind instrument but can do without.

I like my macerator but if going cruising it would be converted to a hand operated pump for reliability.

I like three blade props (reliable) and will never buy a fancy mechanical prop again...

I like ventilation and opening ports.

I like ST winches and rope clutches but would not go out of my way to convert.

I like Gore Stuffing Box Packing & PSS shaft seals.

I don't like computers for navigation and use one for my photography only. Been there tried it went back to a plotter.

I like helm mounted data.

I like nav-pods to keep my instruments dry.

I like a forward facing nav station.

I like at least one proper sea berth.

I like properly placed hand holds below decks.

I like cockpit cushions but they are not a necessity

I like dodgers (won't sail without one) & bimini's (don't want cancer) but they come off in really bad, green water, weather.

I like to eat so a stove/oven is a necessity

I like to BBQ but have yet to find a good one so we currently don't use one. Could care less really.

I like coffee. Been using Folgers...

I like having a real mattress pad and sheets & custom made a set from a king to fit our berth.

I enjoy hot water but it's not a necessity for me.

I HATE showering in the head (mold) and instead have a cockpit mounted wand..

I like redundant bilge pumps, two electric with one spare and one Whale manual type.

I prefer a keel stepped mast.

I like the safety & stability of inflatable dinghy's and a small 2 stroke. I don't like four strokes (been there done that sold it).

I have an epirb.

I like a good fixed mount VHF but also carry two spare hand held units that accept standard batteries.

I carry a ditch bag and a pelican case with spare GPS, VHF, Strobes and a large supply of Lithium AA batteries to power everything in the case in event we need them.

I use a manual flush toilet but carry spares.

I carry extra swage-less fittings and lots of rigging spares.

I carry spare hoses, clamps, electrical, nuts bolts screws, fuses, breakers, o-rings, sail repair supplies on and on and on...

So my preferred luxuries are really pressure water, GPS, Radar and a Stereo (so frivolous I know)..

Please keep in mind the above description is what works for ME and what I've learned personally from my own experiences. This may not suit YOU and I would not expect it to!

Unfortunately, I find the levels of hero worshiping on this and other forums kind of disconcerting and alarming.?

Some worship the likes of Lin and Larry or Casey or the Leonard's but I truly feel that this is a personal issue and one should ONLY be GUIDED by books they read not brainwashed or indoctrinated.

I'm in NO WAY pointing fingers at ANYONE in this particular thread at all and I include many forums from CS-BB, Cruisers Forums, SBO, SSCA, et.al when I talk about hero worshiping not just Sailnet. Sadly, many of these authors, and I've read them all, speak for what works for THEM and some portray this as the ONLY way things should be done.

If you've been around boat a while then you know there are literally 100's of ways to skin the same cat and meet the same end result. People do it differently every single day..!!

My suggestion is read as much as you can, but don't worship, and be sure to know what works for YOU not some author. When I say author that includes MY list of what works for ME above. If you find something in my list or an authors book useful to YOU then adopt it but don't do as some do and blindly accept a printed authors word for it just because it was in a "book"...

To be perfectly honest I have learned more on sailing forums and found far better answers to questions than I have in my very large library of marine related books.


----------



## PBzeer

I agree you have to find what works for you. But most especially, if you're spending any significant time on the boat. You have to enjoy the boat, not be a slave to it.


----------



## camaraderie

Halekai...great post. I absolutely agree with your statements at the end about "heroes" and finding your own way to cruise. Looking at your list, I find myself agreeing with 90% and disagreeing with 10% while I probably disagree with 50% of the Pardee's stuff or more! Just goes to show that you can be happy cruising in a lot of different ways. Listen to everyone and make up your own mind! 
Same applies to navigation and passagemaking...listen to those who have done it and been there...but YOU are the captain of your own vessel and need to make the choices that are right for your boat, your skills and your crew.

Having said that...here are the items on your list that I have quibbles with.

* off shore a sextant.
*Multiple GPS's (4) with massive AA battery backups stored in Pelican cases and in the microwave (Faraday Cage) on passage are my choice. They work all the time, in any weather and with great accuracy. Sextants are fun...but they are buggy whips! (We've had this thread folks but feel free to start a new one!)
*
I like solar panels and simple battery systems with a battery monitor such as a link 10. I do not like gen sets of any kind including the small Honda's.
*I like solar...but would not be without wind if going passive as I've found I can get twice the output on average daily than from a pair of 80 watt ea. panels. As to generators...never had or felt I needed one till my present boat...clearly a luxury...but BOY are they nice to have!! Feel the Honda generators are a good choice for someone with charging needs for a short term cruise or weekend type needs to charge batteries and power stuff. 
*
I like roller furling and prefer a main sail with a minimum of three reef points.
*Ditto...but Boom Furling main if you can afford it is even better than 3 reef points! 
*
I don't like electric windlasses. I've fixed far to many thus I now use a manual windlass when and if I ever need it.
*I got one to make it easy and quick to raise the main from the cockpit. Can do it by hand if necessary. NO problems experienced (Andersen winch) and a nice if pricey convenience. 
*
I prefer a dry bilge. 
*I prefer one too...but the last 2 boats I've owned by design cannot have a totally dry bilge...can't get to it. No big deal. 
*
I don't like 5200 or Silicone and use them very, very carefully.
*I don't see much need for 5200 either ...but I do use silicone a lot and like it for certain things. 
*
I don't like exterior teak and I'm far to anal to let it go gray..
*I like some teak ad how it makes a boat look and Cetol makes it pretty easy to keep up with it and keep it looking good. If I was anal enough to insist on Varnish....I would have no teak on deck! 
*
I have davits and like them but NOT in rough weather! They are not however a necessity for me just a luxury.
*I just don't like davits....an accident waiting to happen. Have had them on two boats and prefer to tow or store dink on deck. 
*
I like ST winches and rope clutches but would not go out of my way to convert.
*I WOULD go out of my way to convert! 
*
I like Gore Stuffing Box Packing & PSS shaft seals.
*I don't trust the PSS in distant anchorages. Give me something easily fixed every time.*

I like a forward facing nav station.
*I never use my nav station except for storage. Everything is at the helm except the SSB.
*
I like cockpit cushions but they are not a necessity
*They ARE a necessity!! 
*
I like dodgers (won't sail without one) & bimini's (don't want cancer) but they come off in really bad, green water, weather.
*I like full cockpit enclosures. Great in cold and bad weather but subject to the same concerns as a bimini in REALLY bad weather. 
*
Been using Folgers...
*I thought you said you liked COFFEE?? 
*
I HATE showering in the head (mold) and instead have a cockpit mounted wand..
*I can't shower in the cockpit...I can't stand the ogling and suggestive remarks from all the females in the anchorage!! *
*


----------



## Maine Sail

Amen Cam!!

but...

* off shore a sextant.
*Multiple GPS's (4) with massive AA battery backups stored in Pelican cases and in the microwave (Faraday Cage) on passage are my choice. They work all the time, in any weather and with great accuracy. Sextants are fun...but they are buggy whips! (We've had this thread folks but feel free to start a new one!)

*Answer: That's exactly what I do, although I have only three not four, in fact my GPS's/ VHF's in the case are individually wrapped in foil too. I have not dusted off the sextant in a long, long time but would still bring it for extended off shore work!*
*
I like solar panels and simple battery systems with a battery monitor such as a link 10. I do not like gen sets of any kind including the small Honda's.
*I like solar...but would not be without wind if going passive as I've found I can get twice the output on average daily than from a pair of 80 watt ea. panels. As to generators...never had or felt I needed one till my present boat...clearly a luxury...but BOY are they nice to have!! Feel the Honda generators are a good choice for someone with charging needs for a short term cruise or weekend type needs to charge batteries and power stuff.
*
Answer: Meant to say solar/wind *
*
I like roller furling and prefer a main sail with a minimum of three reef points.
*Ditto...but Boom Furling main if you can afford it is even better than 3 reef points! 
*
Answer: I agree*
*
I don't like electric windlasses. I've fixed far to many thus I now use a manual windlass when and if I ever need it.
*I got one to make it easy and quick to raise the main from the cockpit. Can do it by hand if necessary. NO problems experienced (Andersen winch) and a nice if pricey convenience.
*
Answer: **There seems to be a huge difference in the longevity factor of halyard and sheet winches when compared to anchor windlasses. Location is perhaps a big player in this factor? * 
 *
I prefer a dry bilge. 
*I prefer one too...but the last 2 boats I've owned by design cannot have a totally dry bilge...can't get to it. No big deal.

*Answer: **Again, I prefer a dry bilge you don't mind one that's why it needs to be about you..*
*
I don't like 5200 or Silicone and use them very, very carefully.
*I don't see much need for 5200 either ...but I do use silicone a lot and like it for certain things.
*
Answer: Agreed, I do use silicone more than 5200 but I am very careful how and where I use the silicone. *
*
I don't like exterior teak and I'm far to anal to let it go gray..
*I like some teak ad how it makes a boat look and Cetol makes it pretty easy to keep up with it and keep it looking good. If I was anal enough to insist on Varnish....I would have no teak on deck! 
*
Answer: If I had to have a boat with teak I'd go back to using Cetol again. I do believe boats can still look good with no teak. Again it's about YOU..*
*
I have davits and like them but NOT in rough weather! They are not however a necessity for me just a luxury.
*I just don't like davits....an accident waiting to happen. Have had them on two boats and prefer to tow or store dink on deck. 
*Answer: Properly rigged I've traveled thousands of miles with a dink on the davits in calm weather with ZERO issues. The key word's are "PROPERLY RIGGED" and 95% of the folks I see using davits use them incorrectly. I always store on deck in anything over 4 foot seas or 18+ knots.. *
*
I like ST winches and rope clutches but would not go out of my way to convert.
*I WOULD go out of my way to convert! 
*
Answer: I currently have two non ST's under my dodger, for halyards, and it's not bugged me enough yet to replace them...*
*
I like Gore Stuffing Box Packing & PSS shaft seals.
*I don't trust the PSS in distant anchorages. Give me something easily fixed every time.
*Answer: Again this is why you must make your decisions. I've now owned four or five boats with PSS's and not had one ounce of trouble. In fact I just replaced the bellows on my current boat and sent the old one back for inspection. At 6 years old and 2800 engine hours (three ditch trips) PSS said the bellows were as good as new! I've also had a traditional hose on a stuffing box fail so PSS's are not the only shaft seal to worry about..*
* 
I like a forward facing nav station.
*I never use my nav station except for storage. Everything is at the helm except the SSB.
*Answer: I like to eat & sit there and use my lap top at night and still be in the conversation with the rest of the cabin not with my back to them. My electronics are also at the helm.. Should have clarified..*
*
I like cockpit cushions but they are not a necessity
*They ARE a necessity!! 

*Answer: My wife says so too..*
*
I like dodgers (won't sail without one) & bimini's (don't want cancer) but they come off in really bad, green water, weather.
*I like full cockpit enclosures. Great in cold and bad weather but subject to the same concerns as a bimini in REALLY bad weather.

*Answer: Yup we have a full cockpit enclosure too but it's not on my 100% necessary list..*
*
Been using Folgers...
*I thought you said you liked COFFEE?? 

*Answer: Folgers is NOT the final answer but we have not yet found the perfect cup of boat Joe and have tried everything...*
*
I HATE showering in the head (mold) and instead have a cockpit mounted wand..
*I can't shower in the cockpit...I can't stand the ogling and suggestive remarks from all the females in the anchorage!! *

Answer: And that's why I like it???
*


----------



## Valiente

Solar panels, wind generator: you'll need them at sea and on the hook. Gas gensets=Bad. annoy everybody.

*Understand that it's a quiet Honda model, and it's a tertiary charging source: if the alternator, the wind and the solar aren't working, it's available to save the contents of the fridge or to power a pump. I got it mainly to run power tools at anchor (running these off the inverter, while doable, is not desirable from an efficiency standpoint), and to throw a charge into the windlass battery forward. On a steel boat, the ability to run Dremels, hand grinders and other power tools is useful on deck (obviously calm, dry days), as is the ability to "bring one's own power" ashore to do work on the beach you'd rather not do aboard.*

Fuel system: Possibly unnecessary complications. (But I could be wrong)

*In this case, yes. My system gives me the ability to polish fuel while sailing, to provide a back-up fuel pump, and to change filters without stopping the engine. I will have two 50 gallon keel tanks plus a 40 gallon "polish/day tank": even if I take on dodgy fuel, I'm not necessarily stuck, as I can isolate and self-remedy the situation in remote places.*

PC Based navigation: Good for planning, otherwise - Bad. Prone to failure and may give false sense of security. be sure you have complete, up-to-date paper charts and plotting tools and know how to use them. Also have at least one hand held GPS with plenty of spare batteries. Disclosure: I have Garmin software and GPS interface on my PC but I NEVER use it for navigation while under way.

*Yes, in keeping with the belt-and-suspenders approach, I will carry current and annotated paper charts. Understand I also have a pilothouse, a dry, large area in which to do my nav work. I don't need an outdoor, daylight-defeating, weather-proof screen for nav at the helm...I can buy approximately six identical used laptops for the same price as a current 10" plotter screen. Better that I have black boxes and six 15" screens...plus handheld GPS, a sextant, and various other goodies.*

While I'm on a roll (Or rant as it were); Navigation necessities, In my opinion of course, are:

Good quality steering compass.

Another good quality steering compass.

*Ritchie Globemaster, KVH AC103 fluxgate and probably a Vector G2 "satellite compass" for the autopilot. A compass on the wristwatch (have to hold it five feet off the steel deck, but it works fine at my chin level or atop the aluminum pilothouse lid.)
*
Two or more hand held GPS units. These don't have to be fancy as long as they give you the basic data - lat, long, speed. We have one Garmin GPS76 and two GPS 38s. Total cost about $400. You MUST (In my opinion) have GPS unit(s) that operate independently of the ship's power supply and not too fancy lest yo be tempted to forego real charts.

*Two old Magellans plus a surprisingly accurate Trimble from 1993 with just alphanumeric display. Plus the Raymarine 420 plotter still at the inside helm. I'll probably update the Magellans to something that eats AAs less voraciously.*

Depth sounder. Even a lead line. A necessity when anchoring and very helpful when you are sailng where you shouldn't be

*I have a rickety CRT sounder called a Marinetek that works nicely, but takes power and room. There are better options.*

Current NOAA or Admiralty paper charts. Expensive but no prudent navigator would think of going to sea without them.

*Nor will I.
*
Plotting tools. I use a Jeppeson aviation style rotating plotter/protractor and a Field Artillery plotting square, a 18" steel ruler and a set of traditional brass dividers. #4 pencils don't smear like #2s do. These work for me because I'm used to them and know how to use them. (My life story can come later) I don't like parallel rulers or yachtman's plotters but you might find they suit you. Use what works for you but be damned sure you know how to use the tools that you choose.

*Both the wife and I have taken plenty of nav courses and I do mostly GPS-less coastal pilotage here in chartbooks, taking bearings, 60 D Street and such. I also known and keep up my celestial nav skills with a Freiberger and a Astra III B sextant.*

Tide and current tables. Paper, not on your laptop. (Again, electronic is OK for planning but it is not a substitute for a book printed on paper)

*This is a weak spot for me, as Lake Ontario has currents, but "seiche" is as close to tides as we get. I will need to experience tides around Nova Scotia next year, if, as planned, we do a shakedown cruise down East prior to heading to Panama.*

Good quality binoculars. 7X50

*WWII Carl Zeiss 10 X 50s, Tasco 7 x 50s, a cheap 4 x 30, Bushell birders' glasses and an old rangefinder I found in the club house garbage. I use the Zeisses and the birders' glasses the most, as the Zeisses can make out buoy numbers at a ridiculous distance, but the birders' glasses are good at taking in a large sweep of water.
*

Hand bearing compass.
*
Yep, a Davis pistol grip model plus the aforementioned Suunto watch bearing compass.*

A good stong hand held spotlight with it's own battery, not one that depends on the ships power.

*Yes, two Garrity 6V lanterns, plus a 3V halogen flashlight...in addition to the "auto spot light" off ship's power or off the emergency power pack/inverter I carry (a 700W model I got prior to the Honda generator).*

Log. A device that tells you your speed through the water. Record speed, time and compass heading in your Logbook or deck log at regular intervals to determine your DR position.

*The GPSes do this quite well, and we keep hourly logs from which we derive set and drift, etc. DR positions are customarily kept and then compared with bearings taken from the shore (when it's visible) or against GPS reports. I plan to add celestial-derived positioning into the mix in order to add another element this summer.*

Chronometer. Really a good wristwatch will do and I don't mean a Rolex. We each have a Rolex and neither of them keep good enough time for navigation. Any decent quartz watch will be superior. If it has a stopwatch function so much the better.

*I do, and it does. Plus a recording barometer, probably the function I use the most. I adjust it to UTC via the national observatory, and/or an Internet site with atomic clock numbers. The variance over six months is at most, one second, which probably has to do more with my reaction time during the initial setting than the watch wandering.*

Logbook. To record our position fixes to facilitate dead (Or ded) reckoning.

*I keep a dual log of positional and maintenance information. I only know a few people on Lake Ontario who even keep a log at all, but it's how I determine oil change intervals, weather states, total sailing days, etc.*

Any additional information about your cruising grounds you can get. Charlie's Charts, Wagonners, Yachtsman's chart books, whatever.
*
Yep! I've got to read something in the head.*

Sextant. Eh... not so much. For the price of one cheap sextant you can buy two cheap GPS units that will be far more accurate than any position you can get with a sextant from the deck of a small boat, and by "Small boat" I mean anything under 200 feet on deck. (On Endeavour, 151 ft LOA, the best I could do was a cocked hat ten miles across. My GPS 76 typically gives a position within one boatlength of my Vega27) Bear in mind also that, on our recent Pacific crossing we did not see the sun, let alone moon or stars, for five weeks. Sextant's no good under those conditions Buckwheat. Then there are the tables and almanac you will need along with the sextant. Skip the sextant and buy three handheld GPS units and plenty of batteries with the money you save. Keep a log and fall back on DR in the unlikely event that all three of your GPS units fail.

OK, I admit I have a sextant, and HO 249 and almanac. Mostly I use the sextant turned sideways to take bearings for coastal navigation. Then check my position plot with the GPS.

Whoops! Looks like I got off on a tangent there. Sorry I just thought I had something to say and my fingers went off on their own. Not aimed at anyone in particular you understand. Well, not after I got started on navigation anyway. It's just that I have strong feelings about computer based navigation. All well and good until the batteries go flat or the salt spray gets into the works then it's a dark and stormy night and the laptop won't reboot and that's when the screaming starts. And it's "My mother warned me not to go to sea!", and "What do you MEAN you don't have a satelite phone?!?!?!?" and then it's "What'll we DOOOoooooooooooo!!!!!!!?!?!?!? and that's when the cat stars wailing and throwing up in your slippers.

Now, If it was me, I would calmly light up a cigar (Punch double corona, maduro, of course), fire up my number two or three GPS unit, verify my DR plot on my paper chart and authoritatively say "Bring in the Jenny and hoist the number 2 jib. Take another reef in the main and lay 'er on the starboard tack at 040."

But that's just me.

*Heh. Well, the sextant comes out sideways for that coastal pilotage I mentioned, and for getting a height of something on shore to determine distance off. It's superior to a bearing compass in many situations. Part of having them, however, is for the challenge of mastering the skill, the challenge of doing the math and staying comfortable with the tables, and the way in which a noonsight breaks up the nautical day. We are taking a kid, who will need daily lessons via correspondence materials, and 20 minutes of sextant work before lunch is a way to pass on a skill while providing a bit of a break on passage. Not to mention that doing SHA/star work at night is a hell of a way to teach astronomy, and, if the math skills are up to it, there's always the opportunity to do lunars.

GPS is a great way to *confirm* a position...but it too, can be off: I've seen with my own eyes a significant correction to a GPS display even while it was reporting a good contact with four satellites. Briefly, my boat was doing 130 knots SOG, until I learned I was four miles SSW of where I'd been seconds before! Thanks to pilotage, I knew that the GPS system itself was "having a moment", (I had two GPSes on, and they both went briefly mental) which is why I like to have as many sources of information as possible, like following a 10 fathom contour line, for instance.

Thanks for the comments. I didn't list everything above beforehand because I just assume that's standard. Maybe I'm naive...*


----------



## Valiente

tdw said:


> So we are now looking for Womboat 3 and here I think we need to be damn careful. Our sights are set on 40' and we are very much trying to keep that as a maximum size knowing just how expensive the gear becomes for every extra foot. In fact, not just the cost of the gear but also the handling thereof noting as well that the bigger the boat the more difficult she is to berth, or indeed to find a berth. (by that I mean temporary berth in ports away from home.)


That was a concern for us, as well. Frankly, I could afford a bigger boat and was lusting in particular after a Kanter Atlantic 45...very much my kind of proposition. But my wife is a wiry five-footer, and while young and game and pretty strong for her size, simple physics means I have a pretty good idea of what she can and can't overcome in the boat handling department (luckily, she's fearless about jumping off with a spring line in her teeth!). She can manage sails on our 40 footer in 25 knots entirely alone, which means for the duration of her watch. It is unreasonable to expect that I can be "on call" weeks at a time on passage, so it was her physical limitations that determined that maximum boat size we could handle, as neither of us wanted to get into electric winches, etc.

Of course a 40 foot full keeler has a LOT of stowage, tankage and general hidey-holes, so that's not an issue, and the pilothouse gives a vast amount of privacy for the aft cabin plus great engine bay access. We've lost some excitement in the sailing realm, yes, but have stability and durability on the upside...you just keep on plodding on at five knots in all but extreme conditions, because the boat drives itself, largely. Also, if the hydraulics fail, I can steer via tiller, but 40 feet is as big as I'd want to do that trick.

The price factor comes in later, but I do admit that ground tackle is massive enough at the 40 foot level (particularly if you size it up one class) to discourage wanting to go larger. More space means more crap aboard and sometimes it's best just to let the boat's dimension dictate what truly needs to go sailing with you and what can be left ashore.


----------



## Valiente

halekai36 said:


> To be perfectly honest I have learned more on sailing forums and found far better answers to questions than I have in my very large library of marine related books.


Same here, and aside from having a VariProp and a Honda 2000 on order, we are largely in complete agreement. (You'd like our Lavac head!) I also have a couple of VHF handhelds, one in the "crash box" with the old GPS and flares and heaving line, etc., and I thought I was the only guy using those Swedish (?) hose clamps...

I like Casey, the Pardeys, Beth Leonard, etc., but they are just larger drops in the pool of knowledge. Generally, I find that if I can get five thought processes out of these type of books, they are worth the price of acquiring them (Jimmy Cornell's latest was interesting that way, because he's had three very different boats on circs., and yet has the same general mindset I've already started to develop). Logging in here, however, I generally learn at least one new thing each day...a better average!


----------



## Maine Sail

Valiente said:


> Logging in here, however, I generally learn at least one new thing each day...a better average!


Yeah and it's free!! I totally agree that if you can pull a few bits of wisdom out of a book it was worth it and that's usually what I get.

I reality my frustration with the current crop of authors is that they skim the nitty gritty of the actual "how to" part just a little to much. I understand they are in it to sell books and have editors yanking pictures and such but c'mon can't we get a little more in-depth and detailed?

I bet I've spent well over 2.5k on books over the years or maybe more......!!


----------



## Stillraining

*This thread is FANTASTIC*

This is the stuff I joined up for...

You guys make me feel like a 5 year old on a tricycle... I learn something here every day I log on, despite... the flair ups of personality...And this is the best kind of sharing.

Mainsail I knew you had some moxie and it's nice to git a better Glimpse...thanks for the list out of your preferences and the resulting comebacks from Cam and Val. Both are a wealth of information.... Happy camper I am..

When I was 17 I got my first, a Mac 21, Owned togather by 3 other of my closest friends. But it was really my boat. I sailed it 100 times more they any other...every chance i got.... My dream shared with my best friend Mark was to build a Bruce Roberts 45...a 35 if we had to sacrifice.. ( I still think big )

I have yet to come to grips that you cant have it all...I still want a 50+ with every thing on it...and until I do, maybe then finding out for my self that it may or may not be to big to Handel .. then it would be like steeling someones dream away from them...or telling a kid..."Oh, You could never accomplish that" . Just putting this down into words is quickening my excitement about it and that's what it is all about for me...Rather it costs a fortune to keep it a the dock or cast the lines and head off into the unknown..Its all about the adventure and...bless your harts.. like you have said all up to each of us.

I too love to read books about our love affair, but have humbly skipped whole sections devoted to ideas or beliefs I care not to entertain..This sailing life is such a part of our personalities as to who we are...Some might think me a snob or unwise because I want a 500,000.00 boat with all the toys... but I would be personally dejected if the 18' O'Day felt in any way unworthy or unwanted to raft up, least we share a beer and sandwich. 
I hope I have conveyed my gratitude to all of you for this small glimpse into your lives and hope to someday measure up. as for now following in your wake
of knowledge is what I aspire to ... Thanks Vega for starting this....

Hope to some day raft up and share that beer with some of you... Until then I will keep that dream alive also!..


----------



## tdw

I bought Ms W a copy of Beth Leonard's "A Voyagers Handbook" for her birthday and it was a very good move on my part. Most of my "how to do" books have been by some of the crusty old salts like Roth and Hiscock. BL's book is both more modern in it's outloook and written in a manner that the less experienced soul can really appreciate. I also like the way in which she is happy to acknowledge areas were they have gone astray. 
Good stuff.


----------



## Valiente

Yes, I agree. Leonard's no amateur, but she retains enough humility or at least honesty about her mistakes and foul-ups to make the materials seem approachable. This is combined with budget breakdowns and various "degrees of complexity" to which one, or one's line of credit, can aspire. There's also a fair degree of realism about how much money you can make in transit: not much, so start saving now...

I love those older, crustier guys like Hiscock and Roth, because they have such a high degree of internalized seamanship (they had to, as nobody was going to save their asses when they were out there, and facilities were slim to none). Unfortunately, this means for the general reader that a lot of stuff doesn't make sense. I remember reading the otherwise excellent Roth book "How to Sail Around the World", when Roth decides around 1990 (he's already pretty old at this point) to buy a Santa Cruz 50 and solo circumnavigate. What follows are what he's learned...but not how he could afford to buy a 50 footer with enough gadgets and mechanical aids for an old salt to consider going around the world in it! Some of the practicalities, admittedly the less glamorous stuff, is missing. Later, Roth decides that a 35 foot Pretorian is ideal, and he and his wife move aboard...I guess he got a nice pile of cash for the SC50!

It's not as ridiculously stiff upper lip as the Smeatons' prose: 

"Beryl's arm was broken, our cabin was torn off and the rudder stock was bent. 100 miles east was the lee shore of rock-fanged Chile. 'Never mind, dear,' said Beryl, 'tea's up!' After the obliging 50 knot gale had cooled it, I downed my trusty mug, and three pitchpoles later, we had a new deck. Forty hours of bucket work cleared the bilges AND put out the fire. Jolly good! That night, we deserved our extra Hovis biscuit, which unfortunately stank of kerosene."


----------



## Freesail99

When I think of cruising, I don't think about a solo circumnavigate. I don't think they are one and the same nor so they belong in the same conversation. Hey that's me and frankly at this stage of my life, I can't fathom a solo circumnavigate. Crossing an ocean is another thing all together and as I see it, it is still cruising. It is also something with the right boat I would love to do. But for right now, I will settle for the keys and the Caribbean.


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## vega1860

Lot's of good stuff here today. It's great to hear from more experienced sailors and I actually like it when someone disagrees with my ideas. It makes me re-think my position. I am still convinced that small and simple is the way to go. However, I do realize that our way is not for everyone. Most wives, for example, demand a greater degree of creature comforts than mine and will almost always demand a larger closet and bathroom. Laura, bless her soul, is true shellback, having crossed the equator in a square rigged ship and is in her glory changing headsails on the foredeck in a rising gale, or climbing the ratlines to reef topsails. (Personally I'd be happy if I never again see wind above 25 knots)

As the man said, we each have to make our own decisions. I have watched a lot of cruisers passing through Hawaii over the years and have come to several conclusions based on my observations and experience. For example, I'd rather spend my time in port washing down a cheeseburger with a pint of cold draft beer at the pub than fixing the refrigerator I installed so I could have cold beer and fresh meat at sea. At sea I drink red wine or whiskey, neat (Actually I don't drink at sea at all but you see my point). We have no refrigerator and see no need for one. "How do you keep the mayonnaise?" you may ask. We don't use it. I won't go into a long dissertation on the subject here. Suffice it to say that we have been living, and eating, quite well for a good many years without a fridge. Don't be so shocked. Few people had refrigerators until the 1940s.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that my way is the only way, or the right way, just one of several ways. And, as someone else said here, I'm no Luddite. We use GPS for primary navigation, plan our route and watch movies on our laptop. Our next planned purchase for the boat is an ipod compatible stereo so we can eliminate the 400 CDs we carry in a binder (The old stereo quit on us while crossing the Pacific anyway, eating my favorite Beach Boys CD in the process).

Valiente, there are a couple of seeming contradictions in your post. Concerning my comment about needing a mechanical log or other manual means of determining boat speed for maintaining a DR position you said:

_*The GPSes do this quite well, and we keep hourly logs from which we derive set and drift, etc. DR positions are customarily kept and then compared with bearings taken from the shore (when it's visible) or against GPS reports. I plan to add celestial-derived positioning into the mix in order to add another element this summer.*_

Further down the page you say:

*GPS is a great way to *confirm* a position...but it too, can be off: I've seen with my own eyes a significant correction to a GPS display even while it was reporting a good contact with four satellites. Briefly, my boat was doing 130 knots SOG, until I learned I was four miles SSW of where I'd been seconds before! Thanks to pilotage, I knew that the GPS system itself was "having a moment", (I had two GPSes on, and they both went briefly mental) which is why I like to have as many sources of information as possible, like following a 10 fathom contour line, for instance.*

OK. You like using a sextant but, remember, we didn't get a good enough look at the sun to get a sight for over a month on our crossing.

Replying to my comment about maintaining a written deck log you wrote:

_*I keep a dual log of positional and maintenance information. I only know a few people on Lake Ontario who even keep a log at all, but it's how I determine oil change intervals, weather states, total sailing days, etc.
*_
I differentiate between the deck log and the maintenance log, butwhat I'm talking about here is a record of your position plots, be they by DR, Observation or GPS. My point was the need for position determined by two or more separate means, belt and suspenders, and comparing the relative accuracy of the positions determined by various methods so you are aware of the accuracy you are achieving. As far as not keeping a log on the lake, even one as big as Ontario, we didn't keep a deck log while island hopping in home waters either, other than to keep track of engine time, fuel consumption etc. but, I submit that when one is out of sight of land for a month it is a different kettle of fish altogether. Position derived from compass, chronometer and log and recorded in the logbook as the DR position is an independent back up for your GPS and/or celestial derived position.

But again, that's just my preference. You have a lot of time for that sort of thing at sea and I enjoy the process. (I might add that I agree with your observations on celestial. It's just that on a boat the size of a Vega in all but a flat calm sea it is nearly impossible to get a decent sight.)

On the subject of logbooks: we use a day planner zipper binder with tabs dividing the engine log, provisioning lists, stowage plan, expense record, position log and daily journal. It has pockets and inserts to hold our passports, vessel documentation, Veterinarians health certificate for the cat, Yacht Club membership cards, Coast Guard inspection certificate etc. You will really impress the Coasties if you whip out the book that has everything organized at your fingertips. The inspection, if they bother to inspect at all after seeing that you have your act together, will go a lot more smoothly. When they ask if you have flares, for example, just flip to the page where you have recorded the purchase and expiration dates and tell them. What could have been an ugly experience ended up nothing more that them standing on the dock filling out the form and me sitting on the boat with my logbook.

Good point about the barometer BTW. Essential equipment for offshore, in my opinion, but, like everything else, only if you know how to use it. Laura got quite good at forecasting the weather using the barometer, thermometer and watching the clouds. Then again, you may have a weather fax or satellite internet connection but what's the fun in that eh?

We enjoy being self reliant. We enjoy learning how sailors crossed the oceans in the 18th 19th and early 20th centuries and trying out their methods in our own voyaging. The old ways still work, are challenging and, for us, fun. But let's not be foolish about it. We carry a set of signal flags for fun. Not as a substitute for a VHF.

Malie ka kai.


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## tdw

Vega,

I really do like your idea for the logbook. Good thinking, I'm definitely going to steal that idea.

We have two GPS on board, one installed at the chart table with a cockpit repeater and a handheld. I'll probably make that two handheld shortly.

As an aside, our log fried itself some time back. Now we use the handheld GPS instead.

Rains stopped for awhile in old Sydney Town, need to head off down to the old girl to check for leaks.

Cheers for now


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## bestfriend

Another "favorite" post from halekai. This is starting to sound like hero worship. But seriously, You guys are dead on about the books. They are nice to read, fun to have around, convenient for reference, time killers, relaxation enhancers, but a place like this or other forums where things get hashed out, much better IMHO.


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## Stillraining

*Who said*

anything about hashing things out.....

Just Kidding...


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## TSOJOURNER

If we could cruise sensibly, we wouldn't need a forum


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## Stillraining

*Daw-gon-it... Priate*

Now ya done it....Im going to have to gouge my eye out...


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## vega1860

Hey Wombat. Had a ship mate on Endeavour we called "Fran the Gran". She was a tall ship junkie in her fifties, originally from Scotland living in OZ. Anyway, we got to talking on watch one time and I mentioned that I had visited Sidney during the late unpleasantness in Southeast Asia. She asked when. I told her, '68 and went on about what a good time I'd had and how friendly the girls were and how we had gone to the Motor Club in Sydney every night to, well, you know, soldiers on leave eh? She got this horrified look on her face and asked me what my rank had been. When I told her I had been a buck sergeant at the time she almost feinted from relief and said. "Oh, I only dated officers." 

Old Fran led an interesting life. Retired, she traveled the world crewing on tall ships. Last time I saw her she was passing through Honolulu on her way to join a ship in New York (IIRC) for a tall ship race across the Atlantic.


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## Plumper

Was that the Aussie ship Young Endeavour?


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## Stillraining

*Careful Vega*

Your wife will be reading this..


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## vega1860

No. HM Bark Endeavour. The replica of the ship Capt. James Cook sailed around the world on his first voyage of discovery in 1768. Awesome ship. The best of its kind by far.


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## tdw

vega1860 said:


> No. HM Bark Endeavour. The replica of the ship Capt. James Cook sailed around the world on his first voyage of discovery in 1768. Awesome ship. The best of its kind by far.


Plumper,
There are two Endeavours. The one you are talking about 'the Young Endeavour' was a gift to Oz from Britain at the time of our bicentenary in 1988. She nows calls Newcastle home. We were moored across the way from her when we sailed into Newcastle year before last. Good looking thing but not a replica.










NE is the black hull off to the right of the pic not the white dreamboat which was in Newcastle (Australia not UK of course) for some repairs and maintenance.

The Endeavour herself is probably one of only two positive things you can say about disgraced businessman and all round ****e head Allan Bond, he of Australia II fame which was of course the second. She is indeed a fine thing.
Sydney used to have a number of square riggers, James Craig, Endeavour, Bounty being the most famous. Bounty has recently been sold to some Chinese investors who have moved her to Hong Kong. Endeavour is now owned by the National Maritime Museum and is berthed in Darling Harbour near the Craig. (or at least she was last time I looked).

Its actually somewhat ironic that Endeavour is based in Sydney as Cook sailed straight past the place with nary a sideways glance.

Vega,
What was it the English used to say about you septics during WWII ? Overpaid , over sexed and over here ? Something like that. Actually I think it's fair to say that despite the opposition to the war itself, American servicemen have always received a warm welcome here. Even an old peacenik like me is likely to be out to welcome in visiting US ships and I don't mean with protest banners flying.

ps - I could be absolutely anal about it and remind you that when he commanded Endeavour Cook was but a lieutenant.  But I won't. 

Thanks again for this thread.


----------



## Valiente

vega1860 said:


> Valiente, there are a couple of seeming contradictions in your post.
> 
> *Yes, I see that. Looks like I want it both ways. I suppose it's because it is hard to obtain a taff rail/Walker log these days, and what I've read of them seems to involve losing them to hungry, large fish. I suppose I could use the very traditional method of chucking a board on a bridle off the bow, and counting the seconds until it passes the stern! Fun for the kid, maybe.*
> 
> Concerning my comment about needing a mechanical log or other manual means of determining boat speed for maintaining a DR position you said:
> 
> _*The GPSes do this quite well, and we keep hourly logs from which we derive set and drift, etc. DR positions are customarily kept and then compared with bearings taken from the shore (when it's visible) or against GPS reports. I plan to add celestial-derived positioning into the mix in order to add another element this summer.*_
> 
> Further down the page you say:
> 
> *GPS is a great way to *confirm* a position...but it too, can be off: I've seen with my own eyes a significant correction to a GPS display even while it was reporting a good contact with four satellites. Briefly, my boat was doing 130 knots SOG, until I learned I was four miles SSW of where I'd been seconds before! Thanks to pilotage, I knew that the GPS system itself was "having a moment", (I had two GPSes on, and they both went briefly mental) which is why I like to have as many sources of information as possible, like following a 10 fathom contour line, for instance.*
> 
> OK. You like using a sextant but, remember, we didn't get a good enough look at the sun to get a sight for over a month on our crossing.
> 
> *No moon or stars at night, either? If I have confirmation of my time, I don't necessarily need a noon sight.*
> 
> You said:
> I differentiate between the deck log and the maintenance log, butwhat I'm talking about here is a record of your position plots, be they by DR, Observation or GPS. My point was the need for position determined by two or more separate means, belt and suspenders, and comparing the relative accuracy of the positions determined by various methods so you are aware of the accuracy you are achieving.
> 
> *Sometimes the problem is terminology. What I usually do on the lake is to study the lake chart to get a general bearing that combines shortest distance with a safe margin off any known nav hazards (there are few on Lake Ontario excepting a couple of reefs, rocks and headlands). Then I do my plots on a chartbook, a "not for navigation" wire binder collection of older, out of copyright charts that nonetheless suffice for plotting courses. Due to the "bent carrot" shape of Lake Ontario, the logical course will frequently be several miles offshore, so what you want is bearings to whatever landmarks you can see at that distance, of which there are several (CN Tower, Crysler Point power station chimney, etc.) So I will take visual bearings on deck, plus a simultaneous GPS position, and only if they fail to match will I trot out the "official" paper chart. In heavy weather or fog, I will keep a DR in terms of noting how long and at what logged speed (either from the sounder, which has a SOG function, or the helm GPS)and course we've been travelling. I don't mind sailing in fog in terms of navigation, but I do worry about other vessels, which is why I'm looking forward to getting radar. Radar is not necessary for yachts on the Great Lakes in most situations, but I believe it's pretty critical on an ocean-going boat, if you can justify the power draw issues and can interpret the display. I've had a bit of practice at this, and I am fascinated by looking at distant weather via radar, as well as discerning seawall gaps at night and other hard to locate features.*
> 
> (I might add that I agree with your observations on celestial. It's just that on a boat the size of a Vega in all but a flat calm sea it is nearly impossible to get a decent sight.)
> 
> *I would imagine. Our boat is a more stable platform naturally, and having the ability to brace against the pilothouse (handy for binoculars as well) means you can do the bob and weave thing smoothly in order to bring down the sun or planet.
> *
> On the subject of logbooks: we use a day planner zipper binder with tabs dividing the engine log, provisioning lists, stowage plan, expense record, position log and daily journal. It has pockets and inserts to hold our passports, vessel documentation, Veterinarians health certificate for the cat, Yacht Club membership cards, Coast Guard inspection certificate etc. You will really impress the Coasties if you whip out the book that has everything organized at your fingertips. The inspection, if they bother to inspect at all after seeing that you have your act together, will go a lot more smoothly. When they ask if you have flares, for example, just flip to the page where you have recorded the purchase and expiration dates and tell them. What could have been an ugly experience ended up nothing more that them standing on the dock filling out the form and me sitting on the boat with my logbook.
> 
> *That's a good idea. I use a binder with three-hole paper currently, but the "ship's papers" are by the companionway in a plastic slipcover. The zipper binder might be a better idea because it should be at least splash-proof.
> 
> Frankly, a lot of my decisions come from having the pilothouse, which I treat as an office...a dry office. I only bring on deck what I need to, which is usually just a handheld VHF and maybe a handheld GPS. If it's raining, I'll move inside unless I need to be actively sailing with a lot of sail trimming.*
> 
> Good point about the barometer BTW. Essential equipment for offshore, in my opinion, but, like everything else, only if you know how to use it. Laura got quite good at forecasting the weather using the barometer, thermometer and watching the clouds. Then again, you may have a weather fax or satellite internet connection but what's the fun in that eh?
> 
> *In addition to the wristwatch (which shows me just now that the pressure drop of the last six hours has levelled off), we have a traditional aneroid barometer, plus a Speedtech recording barometer with humidity and temp readings. Once calibrated, it has proven to be exceptionally accurate (there's a major weather station 200 metres from my dock). I treat the Internet connection (wireless at dock) when I have a laptop aboard like the GPS: it provides some of the data to determine how I plan my day. For instance, if it's stinking hot with a SSW breeze in late July at 9 A.M., and I see on a North American weather map storms in Indiana or Illinois or Michigan, odds are excellent that squalls will form by late afternoon and will march right up the lake. I have also used live weather radar in race situations, not only to determine whether it's safe to race at all, but to gauge where disturbed air is likely to be, and at what point the onshore and offshore winds of evening will trade places. All good fun, if you don't put too much faith in it.*
> 
> We enjoy being self reliant. We enjoy learning how sailors crossed the oceans in the 18th 19th and early 20th centuries and trying out their methods in our own voyaging. The old ways still work, are challenging and, for us, fun. But let's not be foolish about it. We carry a set of signal flags for fun. Not as a substitute for a VHF.


*
I made a Q flag, but I have to admit, I don't carry signal flags. Maybe after I get a sewing machine! *


----------



## Valiente

Mr. W. Bat:

I see that using that split pipe insulation foam to cushion your lifelines is as popular down under as it is here...or is that the darker sort of "pool noodle"?


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## vega1860

tdw said:


> Plumper,
> 
> Vega,
> What was it the English used to say about you septics during WWII ? Overpaid , over sexed and over here ? Something like that. Actually I think it's fair to say that despite the opposition to the war itself, American servicemen have always received a warm welcome here. Even an old peacenik like me is likely to be out to welcome in visiting US ships and I don't mean with protest banners flying.
> 
> ps - I could be absolutely anal about it and remind you that when he commanded Endeavour Cook was but a lieutenant.  But I won't.
> 
> Thanks again for this thread.


WWII was a bit before my time Plumper but the discription would apply, I think, to all men of soldiering age. I don't know about the overpaid part. It's all relative I suppose. We all greatly appreciated the hospitality BTW.

Yes, Cook was a mere Lieutenant when he commanded Endeavour but, of course was called "Captain" in accordance with tradition. Were you aware that he was not even commissioned, just a warrant officer when he was selected to command the first voyage? He was commissioned because the admiralty needed the man in charge to be an officer. He was later "Made Post" and was a Post Captain when he attended the famous barbeque held by the Hawaiians in his honor at Kealakekua-Kona. The famous Captain Bligh was also a Lieutenant at the nime of the mutiny on the Bounty.

You may also have noticed that Bark Endeavour is not a bark at all. Rather she is ship rigged having square sails on all three masts. Why then is she not called HMS Endeavour? Because a mere Lieutenant could not command a "Ship". Those of us with too much time on their hands may also note that Bounty, also ship rigged, was not HMS Bounty but rather HMAV Bounty. For the same reason.

Malie ke kai


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## tdw

vega1860 said:


> WWII was a bit before my time Plumper but the discription would apply, I think, to all men of soldiering age. I don't know about the overpaid part. It's all relative I suppose. We all greatly appreciated the hospitality BTW.
> 
> Yes, Cook was a mere Lieutenant when he commanded Endeavour but, of course was called "Captain" in accordance with tradition. Were you aware that he was not even commissioned, just a warrant officer when he was selected to command the first voyage? He was commissioned because the admiralty needed the man in charge to be an officer. He was later "Made Post" and was a Post Captain when he attended the famous barbeque held by the Hawaiians in his honor at Kealakekua-Kona. The famous Captain Bligh was also a Lieutenant at the nime of the mutiny on the Bounty.
> 
> You may also have noticed that Bark Endeavour is not a bark at all. Rather she is ship rigged having square sails on all three masts. Why then is she not called HMS Endeavour? Because a mere Lieutenant could not command a "Ship". Those of us with too much time on their hands may also note that Bounty, also ship rigged, was not HMS Bounty but rather HMAV Bounty. For the same reason.
> 
> Malie ke kai


I certainly didn't mean to imply your were quite that ancient yon mariner. 

The Lieut v Captain thing is one of those very irritating issues that pedants seem to love to have a gnaw at. Of absolutely no consequence to most of us. Then again we cold start a gazillion page thread to debate the meaning of ship v boat. 

As for the Bark, you have me there. I certainly hadn't realised that but then i'm in no way even vaguely expert on square riggers.

btw, on the subject of simplicity, we were watching a 50ish foot wishbone ketch out on the harbour yesterday. She had four sails , three wishbone plus the mizzen, which was larger than your usually see on a ketch, so all sails self tacking. I suppose, never having experienced this, that the negative would be raising and lowering the sails with those wishbones attached. It did keep all the sails to quite handy sizes given the LOA of the boat itself.

Ignoring those who can afford to pay for the work done on their boats the other major negative of big boats for most of us is the amount of work involved in simply keeping the things clean. Even a 40'er is a major task to scrub down and antifoul. To maintain a 50'er would be a serious trial methinks. Our 28'er we could haul, scrub, paint and have back in the water within 24 hours easily. The 34'er it can be done but certainly not so easy.

That ketch from yesterday was a real beauty, evoking images of Adverntures in Paradise but oh my. Upkeep on a 50' timber ketch ? No thanks.


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## tdw

Valiente said:


> Mr. W. Bat:
> 
> I see that using that split pipe insulation foam to cushion your lifelines is as popular down under as it is here...or is that the darker sort of "pool noodle"?


Sprung !! Other than the comfort aspect it's really not a great result though. The foam itself is far from UV stable. We've had 18 months out of those and they need replacing.

We are in the process of having new sail and bimini covers made and I'm thinking maybe to have covers for the foam made also. Just a simple tube with velcro fastening. It would look so much better, be more comfortable and solve the deterioration problem.

Which reminds me.

Years ago it seemed that almost every cruising boat sported lee clothes on the cockpit lifelines. You still see them but they appear to be nowhere near as popular these days. Any thoughts, anyone, on why this is so ? Or indeed is it so ?


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## Freesail99

> Years ago it seemed that almost every cruising boat sported lee clothes on the cockpit lifelines. You still see them but they appear to be nowhere near as popular these days. Any thoughts, anyone, on why this is so ? Or indeed is it so ?


I think it has to do with stuff, BBQ grills, propane tanks, solar panels, all take up space and need some way to attach to the rail. Then you really don't want to block any views with a lee cloth of that shiny Magma grill.


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## Plumper

tdw said:


> Plumper,
> There are two Endeavours. The one you are talking about 'the Young Endeavour' was a gift to Oz from Britain at the time of our bicentenary in 1988. She nows calls Newcastle home. We were moored across the way from her when we sailed into Newcastle year before last. Good looking thing but not a replica.
> 
> [


I am aware of the Young Endeavour. A close friend was the Captain for a couple years. He used to be my Navigator on another ship. He sent my a great book on the history of the ship. Good read.


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## tdw

Plumper said:


> I am aware of the Young Endeavour. A close friend was the Captain for a couple years. He used to be my Navigator on another ship. He sent my a great book on the history of the ship. Good read.


I did mean to preface that post with "hope I'm not stating the bleedin' obvious".


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## vega1860

tdw said:


> Which reminds me.
> 
> Years ago it seemed that almost every cruising boat sported lee clothes on the cockpit lifelines. You still see them but they appear to be nowhere near as popular these days. Any thoughts, anyone, on why this is so ? Or indeed is it so ?


We have them on Lealea. Ours go all the way around the stern. Makes for much improved privacy while in the marina and a drier cockpit at sea.

That whole bark, ship, brig, sloop thing is a great topic for discussion while everyone is half looped on beer but the plain fact is that it was never engraved in granite. There is British naval tradition of course but that depends on the period.

And of course that which we call a "Sloop" today









Is very different from the "Sloop" of the mid 19th century


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## Valiente

I think weather cloths (with the boat's name, naturally), are a great spray and wind break (and most sailors like to break wind, in my experience). I see no reason why they can't be made up the same time as the lee clothes for the sea berths...something else a lot of boats seem to have forgotten these days.


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## Jim H

Valiente said:


> I think weather cloths (with the boat's name, naturally), are a great spray and wind break (and most sailors like to break wind, in my experience). I see no reason why they can't be made up the same time as the lee clothes for the sea berths...something else a lot of boats seem to have forgotten these days.


I always get in trouble talking about sea cloths in the UK. Here they are called "dodgers," and what a yank would call a dodger is called a "sprayhood." 

Also, you have a pushpit at the stern, and in most cases the boom vang is a kicker.

Finally, don't even dream of calling a floating dock anything but a pontoon.


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## soulesailor

I'm gradually outfitting my boat for the eventual cruise and agree with the 'going small and simple' approach. I like the idea of having a handheld GPS, or two, or three, or four, as a system independent of the ship's power. I'll be adding this to my list of purchases for the boat. 

One of the things I'll be installing this year on my boat is a wind-vane, a fleming 301 global minor, which I got for a very good deal. I don't see windvanes around much and I'm not sure if most of the boats in my area don't cruise far or if everyone is using electric autopilots instead. I use the electric autopilot now and then but I wouldn't want to trust it to keep up with my boat's yawing on a bad sea or use all that electricity. I've also sailed a fair amount with sheet to tiller arrangements, which work to varying degrees, but I think of this as more of a back-up plan if my windvane breaks. 

I like having my systems as simple and as manual as possible, with back-ups and spares. My boat is rigged with an inner forestay and running back-stays to add extra sail arrangements and mast support if needed. New oversized rigging. I have a GPS unit and a chartplotter, depthsounder, VHF (with DSC interfaced with both GPS units) and lighting (interior, deck level nav., masthead nav., spreader work light, steaming) for my electrical draws, which I think is fairly modest. One 60W solar panel and four 6v batteries keep up with all this fine. I also have manual charts and all the tools and use them. Manual lavac head. Alcohol stove. Lots of anchoring gear. No refridgerator. No internal engine; I have a small 6hp outboard (two tanks, two fuel lines) for docking and getting home without any wind. It seems like a lot of people spend A LOT of time and money on their engines and maintenence. Jordan drogue. Life raft. And lots of other stuff. 

Most importantly, I get out there and sail as much as the short Maine season will allow. I love to read and plan but I'm a 'hands-on' kinda guy and getting out on the water in my boat is the best way to apply what I've learned and improve my skills. 

Congratulations of your most recent passage, Vega, and thanks for letting me know that my modest boat and approach to outfitting isn't unseaworthy or dated.


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## vega1860

One thing no one has mentioned yet is rope. Can't have too much in my opinion. It would be ideal if one type and size would work for every application but, unfortunately, on my boat at least, this is not the case. The size of the halyards is limited by the maximum size of the masthead sheaves to 3/8 inch rope. While plenty strong enough for any application except possibly anchoring and mooring lines, that is just too small to be comfortable in the hands for sheets and downhauls etc. so I wind up with 3/8" halyards and sheets of 7/16" braided polyester (Dacron), as are the spare jib halyard and the topping lift which can double as a spare main halyard. Besides the lines rigged, we carry an extra 100 feet of 3/8" and 200 feet of 7/16" braided Dacron and 200 feet of 1/4 inch Amsteel(Dyneema) for emergency standing rigging repairs. We also carry a spool of 3/16 polyester for lashings and other miscellaneous uses around the boat.

Anchor rodes and dock lines are of 1/2 inch three-strand nylon. We also carry a thirty foot pendant with a nylon thimble and shackle on one end and an eye splice on the other plus four fifty foot lengths and one additional heavy anchor rode, 300 feet, all of 5/8" three strand nylon. That is in addition to 100 feet of 3/8 inch proof coil chain plus two fifty foot lengths of 1/4 inch chain for the 1/2 inch anchor rodes. (We carry two 10kg Bruces and two Danforths)

I'm sure some of you are laughing and shaking your heads but I do this for a reason. During our unexpectedly long Pacific crossing, our halyards chafed nearly through at the masthead. I had to end for end the sheets due to chafe and replace the jib tack downhaul with an old sheet which nearly chafed through by the time we reached land. As for the ground tackle and mooring lines; I've been through two hurricanes. The morning the sirens go off is no time to discover you don't have enough rope to secure the boat.

Ideally, I'd have everything rigged with 1/2 inch braided dacron and buy a 600 foot spool of the stuff. But that would require major modifications to the masthead to accomodate the sheaves and all the blocks on the boat would have to be replaced. 3/8 inch would be strong enough for everything except anchor lines and would fit all of the blocks and sheaves but it's just to small for my hands so as long as I have this boat I guess I'm stuck with at least three kinds of rope for rigging. 

Lest some "Yachtsman" get the urge to correct me on calling it rope. I learned as a trainee on a square rigger that it's rope until you put it to work. A coil in the locker is always rope until you reeve it through a block or attach it to the clew of the jib. Then it becomes a line.


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## tdw

soulesailor said:


> I'm gradually outfitting my boat for the eventual cruise and agree with the 'going small and simple' approach. I like the idea of having a handheld GPS, or two, or three, or four, as a system independent of the ship's power. I'll be adding this to my list of purchases for the boat.
> 
> One of the things I'll be installing this year on my boat is a wind-vane, a fleming 301 global minor, which I got for a very good deal. I don't see windvanes around much and I'm not sure if most of the boats in my area don't cruise far or if everyone is using electric autopilots instead. I use the electric autopilot now and then but I wouldn't want to trust it to keep up with my boat's yawing on a bad sea or use all that electricity. I've also sailed a fair amount with sheet to tiller arrangements, which work to varying degrees, but I think of this as more of a back-up plan if my windvane breaks.
> 
> I like having my systems as simple and as manual as possible, with back-ups and spares. My boat is rigged with an inner forestay and running back-stays to add extra sail arrangements and mast support if needed. New oversized rigging. I have a GPS unit and a chartplotter, depthsounder, VHF (with DSC interfaced with both GPS units) and lighting (interior, deck level nav., masthead nav., spreader work light, steaming) for my electrical draws, which I think is fairly modest. One 60W solar panel and four 6v batteries keep up with all this fine. I also have manual charts and all the tools and use them. Manual lavac head. Alcohol stove. Lots of anchoring gear. No refridgerator. No internal engine; I have a small 6hp outboard (two tanks, two fuel lines) for docking and getting home without any wind. It seems like a lot of people spend A LOT of time and money on their engines and maintenence. Jordan drogue. Life raft. And lots of other stuff.
> 
> Most importantly, I get out there and sail as much as the short Maine season will allow. I love to read and plan but I'm a 'hands-on' kinda guy and getting out on the water in my boat is the best way to apply what I've learned and improve my skills.
> 
> Congratulations of your most recent passage, Vega, and thanks for letting me know that my modest boat and approach to outfitting isn't unseaworthy or dated.


SS,
Couple of points. While a handheld GPS may well be free of the boats electrical system be aware that the damn things chew up batteries like nobodies business. We have an extension lead to a cigarette lighter socket for ours and it's something I'd recommend. Ours is an old Garmin 72 and maybe the newer models are more efficient in power use but we do seem to go through an awful lot of batteries unless we plug it in. We do have an installed unit as well but rarely use it while coastal. It's a handy thing to have at chart table and easier to read than a handheld.

Windvanes do seem to be the most logical self steering gear. While we don't have one on Raven I'd definitely install one if we going off cruising in her. Autopilots are good when you have little or no wind and/or under power but the noise is a nuisance no doubt as is the power consumption. We are lucky in that Raven will steer herself quite happily with just an octupus strap on the wheel provided of course the sail trim is just right. I'm told , but have no experience in the matter, that windvanes are problematic on a centre cockpit vessel, but I believe this is to do with the mess of lines having to come over the aft cabin and access to the gear itself.

Raven does have an inboard diesel and I'd not change that for quids. Utterly reliable, cheap to run and quite frankly maintenance costs are not a big issue. One thing I like about the smaller boat is the smaller engine and our Bukh 24hp is about as big as you can go and still hand start easily.

I don't understand anyone having an alcohol stove. Both my keelboats had them when purchased and I do not regret one iota dispensing with the damn things. Give me gas anyday. Our system is simple but effective. We have a pressure gauge on the gas line which is an instant indicator of a leak and no solonoid. Ok so that means climbing out to turn off the gas when you finish cooking but for me that's no big deal.

One question I have however and this is for anyone with an under 35'er. Where do you stow your dinghy ? On our PB (28') we had a glass thing that was lashed to the foredeck where it was an absolute pain in the butt. Unfortunately she didn't have any storage compartments large enough for an inflatable so when we eventually acquired one it had to either live again lashed to the foredeck or it moved between the foward cabin and the aft quarterberth. It annoyed the hell out of me and having a cockpit locker on Raven (34') that is big enough for an infatable is an absolute boon.


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## PBzeer

When I'm in situations where I don't want my dink on the davits, I put it on the foredeck. Transom over the forward hatch, in front of the dorade boxes, then lashed down using the slotted toe rail. Weight and length being the main reasons for going with the Walker Bay 8. It fits quite nicely and still leaves enough room to go forward (though not much), if necessary.


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## tdw

PBzeer said:


> When I'm in situations where I don't want my dink on the davits, I put it on the foredeck. Transom over the forward hatch, in front of the dorade boxes, then lashed down using the slotted toe rail. Weight and length being the main reasons for going with the Walker Bay 8. It fits quite nicely and still leaves enough room to go forward (though not much), if necessary.


PB,
That's what we used to do before we went inflatable. On the PB that left less than enough room on the foredeck on Raven just enough room. Either or it's not a situation I'm all that happy with. Furler does mean that there is less reason to go forward but I'm not all that happy clambering over a dink to get to e.g the anchor.


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## vega1860

Wombat,

While it is true that a hendheld GPS will use up batteries, Why would you leave it on at sea? Once the position is checked, it takes about three minutes, turn it off. We checked our position no more than three times a day crossing the pacific and only had the gps on for more than a few minutes at a time while approaching Cape Flattery. Our primary unit is a Garmin GPS 76. We changed the batteries twice in 55 days and put in fresh as we entered the Strait of juan de Fuca because of the fog. As my flight instructor admonished me: "Don't stare at the instruments, look where you're going!" 

Windvanes: Depends on the boat. We decided we don't need one because Lealea proved that she will hold a course for days at a time without attention, as you mentioned, given proper sail trim and a shock cord on the tiller.

Alcohol cooker: To each his own. Laura does most of the cooking and she likes the simple little two burner Origo we have. I can tell you I haven't suffered from lack of tasty meals either

Dingy: Yep, its a problem all right

Malie ke kai


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## tdw

vega1860 said:


> Wombat,
> 
> While it is true that a hendheld GPS will use up batteries, Why would you leave it on at sea? Once the position is checked, it takes about three minutes, turn it off. We checked our position no more than three times a day crossing the pacific and only had the gps on for more than a few minutes at a time while approaching Cape Flattery. Our primary unit is a Garmin GPS 76. We changed the batteries twice in 55 days and put in fresh as we entered the Strait of juan de Fuca because of the fog. As my flight instructor admonished me: "Don't stare at the instruments, look where you're going!"
> 
> Malie ke kai


Answer to your question is that our log is shot and I use the handheld instead. Need to replace the log but it's a match for the depth sounder and I'm kind of waiting for the depth sounder to die as well so that I have an excuse to replace them both. They are old Navico, long discontinued and no longer supported since the takeover (by Simrad I think it was).


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## soulesailor

Vega, I like the idea of amsteel for standing rigging replacement. How do you plan on getting enough tension on it if you had to rig it up? Do you really sail everywhere with sheet to tiller set-up? That's AWESOME!!!


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## Stillraining

*Vega*

Quote: As my flight instructor admonished me: "Don't stare at the instruments, look where you're going!"

Unless your IFR...then you better be staring at thoes intruments!!! Ive owned two planes...

______________
Quote: Vega, I like the idea of amsteel for standing rigging replacement.

I dont.. whats wrong with the real thing...and stay locks are fast and easy and you already have them?? If you have a hanked on jib I doubt it will last very long...


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## tdw

soulesailor said:


> Vega, I like the idea of amsteel for standing rigging replacement. How do you plan on getting enough tension on it if you had to rig it up? Do you really sail everywhere with sheet to tiller set-up? That's AWESOME!!!


SS,
I can't find any info on the Bristol 27 so have no idea of the hull design but the reality is that most sailing vessels will self steer with the right sail trim, indeed I have less trouble with Raven (fin keel, spade rudder, no skeg) and our PB (28' full keel cutaway forefoot). It is of course possible that the reason for that is experience.
I'd urge you to have a loook at Alex's (Giulietta) sailing videos. One of them covers steering without a rudder and if that speed machine can be made to self steer then anything can do it.


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## vega1860

soulesailor said:


> Vega, I like the idea of amsteel for standing rigging replacement. How do you plan on getting enough tension on it if you had to rig it up? Do you really sail everywhere with sheet to tiller set-up? That's AWESOME!!!


I'd set up the emergency stay using a trucker's hitch. I've tested it and it works well enough. A refinement would be to sieze a block into the bight of the truckers hitch and shackle another at the attachment point. You can set it up quite tight that way. I have a backstay adjusting tackle too so there are any number of ways to skin that cat.

As Stillraining suggests, wire would be better for a headstay replacement if you want to put up a jib hanked to the stay, but, in a small boat where every ounce and every cubic inch of space counts, Amsteel is worth considering and it beats anything else for ease of use. I would rig the stay with Amsteel and set the jib flying based on what I learned on this last trip. I've rigged my boat twice with Sta-Loks, definitely the way to go IMO, and I say, if that's your emergency plan, better have a spare stay already made up rather than trying to cut to length and attach fittings at sea. If you have the room and the extra weight is no problem, that is probably the best solution. Then of course you have to figure on going up the mast carrying twenty plus lbs of wire or getting it up there some other way. and attaching it with clevis and cotter pins to a toggle at the top of the mast, in the worst possible conditions of course.

I think the most prudent solution for the headstay would be to bend the stay to the jib halyard and hoist it up, then set up the tension as described from the foredeck. I'd set the jib flying from the spare jib halyard.

But that's just my solution for my boat.  Might not work for you on yours.

Actually, we didn't run the sheet to the tiller. We just trimmed the sails so that there was just a bit of weather helm, not too much, and lashed the tiller with a shock cord to windward. The boat would stay on course (Close enough for open ocean work) until the wind changed. On several occasions I didn't touch anything for two or three days.

I don't have an instrument rating 

Malie ke kai


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## artbyjody

What is a "truckers hitch"?


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## Valiente

http://www.animatedknots.com/truckers/index.php


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## artbyjody

Valiente said:


> http://www.animatedknots.com/truckers/index.php


Thanks Val


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## Valiente

That whole site is amazing for knots...there's only one other...which I seem to recall is affiliated with British Scouting...that is as good.


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## rennisaint

Truckers hitch is one of the best hitches because it is so simple and sets up a two to one system and allows for tensioning to much higher loads than is normally possible, especially if you pull the bitter end through a cam or camming knot. I'm a rock climber as well as sailor so I carry around lengths of para-cord to practice knots with when I'm bored. Great mental exercise, especially if you start tying knots blind, a very useful skill.


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## maxcontax

*lots to consider all right.*

boat lenght certainly is important but unfortunately it is important only to you! I was thrilled and happy with a 16 ft Wayfarer for years. Now a 34 seems about right. My charter experience leans me to over 30 feet and sailing shorthanded about 32 feet. there is room below and the deck is short enough for a scamper to untangle something but long enough to stow things on and to get rid of that corky ride you get in little sailboats.

Things I have come to appreciate are a tiller or auto pilot, GPS, radar, and a good Antenna (yes, antenna and connections) on a modern VHF which has the digital selective code and panic button. Charts that never see the cockpit: nav table only--so they stay good and don't go overboard. I also have come to appreciate blown out lines, whether they are from the head or galley or related to engine cooling, and a simple steering rig, I like tillers.

The boat has to be able to lock down in a blow, and that means the rigging as well as your dinghy. The lockers belowdecks esp. under the salon seats need wingnuts on them to prevent them dumping in wild water. Somehow you have to be able to hotbunk in the aft cabin because if you get into it the veeberth is good for stowage and little more. Someone who can turn out decent food without chundering is valuable on a long trip.

As for personnel, you need folks that can look, see, and do. You are going to be exhausted if you are constantly consulted on sail trim and navigation. Also a sense of teamwork, with a little forgiveness for screwing up, which you will all take turns at.

I prioritize as follows: firstly it's the wind and water you are in... then the size and condition of the boat and its rigging for that water. Then it is about the crew and their physical/mental shape and experience. Finally it is about the safety of the passengers. Put these in any other priority and you are going to have a tale to tell.


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## soulesailor

vega, thanks for the explanation on the amsteel rigging. I'm going to consider implementing this as another back-up to my existing method which is bringing along some of my old rigging I replaced. My old rigging is one size smaller and has the original fittings but I think it will do in a pinch, and I already own it.



tdw said:


> SS,
> I can't find any info on the Bristol 27 so have no idea of the hull design but the reality is that most sailing vessels will self steer with the right sail trim, indeed I have less trouble with Raven (fin keel, spade rudder, no skeg) and our PB (28' full keel cutaway forefoot). It is of course possible that the reason for that is experience.
> I'd urge you to have a loook at Alex's (Giulietta) sailing videos. One of them covers steering without a rudder and if that speed machine can be made to self steer then anything can do it.


tdw, here are my hull lines (you'll have to scroll down the page to them):
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...ges?q=bristol+27+design+lines&um=1&hl=en&sa=G

My experience with sheet to tiller arrangements has been, for the most part, successful. The problem I have encountered the most is inconsistent winds. This makes it difficult for me to relay the information from the sails to the tiller without having to change the arrangement of block and tackle and tension of the shock cord. With consistent winds I have much better success.

Of course, experience is huge and mine has been limited. I'm hoping to get much better at balancing the boat and arranging self-steering systems next season, even with my new windvane available. My boat seems pretty sensitive to conditions so I'm expecting this to be a long learning curve. John Letcher's book explains the forces at work pretty well so, like you said, more experience is key.

From the accounts of voyagers I've read windvanes can break so having a back-up steering plan is necessary when I go for my first passage. I'll check out alex's videos on sailing without a rudder, too.


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## tdw

soulesailor said:


> tdw, here are my hull lines (you'll have to scroll down the page to them):
> http://images.google.com/imgres?img...ges?q=bristol+27+design+lines&um=1&hl=en&sa=G
> 
> .


Nice, I like that. Almost identical to our PB. As I remarked I had more difficulty making the PB self steer than the current Womboat but I put that down to not knowing what I was doing. Like a lot of people who get into sailing without having had much previous experience my idea of sail trim was not exactly out of the text books.


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## Omatako

*Let's get back to autopilots. . . .*

I have to assume that some posts here are still using autopilots powered by steam. Things like high power consumption and all that noise and how do you control the yaw off the wind, whatever. What kit are you guys using 

Your autopilot should be used when the boat is properly set up so that they're not in a contest. It isn't supposed to "drive" the boat. It's only supposed to make minor course adjustments. Then it will learn the sea-state as it works and course adjustments will become less and less until they are almost imperceptible. If yours doesn't do this then it's either archaic or you're doing something wrong.

We have a Raymarine ST6001. It can only be heard if you put your ear against the bulkhead it is mounted on. After a few hours on a course the wheel twitches every now and then and if you're not watching you'd not notice. While it is not twitching it uses no power. It holds a proper course in strong wind, light air, down wind, on the wind, no wind, following sea, huge sea. I can't recall time when I *had *to take over from the autopilot and on those occasions when I chose to, l couldn't hold the course anywhere near as well.

Nuff said, I'd never cruise without one. Nah! I'd never go out daysailing without one 

On wind pilots I've not sailed with a Fleming, I understand they have revolutionised wind pilots. I sailed for years with an Aries and while it was OK, I don't miss tripping over those control lines. It'll be a cold day in hell when I swap my autopilot for any windpilot. I may have both one day but never just a windpilot.

As for wheel pilots, I had one once, if that is my only choice I guess it would be a windpilot or I'd be hand steering from here on in. I wouldn't have another one of them on my boat irrespective of it's size.

And while I'm throwing cats amongst pigeons, I now cruise a 44 ft boat and hold the view that the people who cruise 28 feet are either trying to prove a point or can't afford the upgrade  . I can't even conceptualise fitting food, water, clothing and fuel for any decent length voyage into 28 feet. The lists of stuff that are apparently packed into these little vessels (see above) can't leave a lot of space for the people. And our 44 feet is easily managed by me and my partner.

Just my own choices . . . . .

Andre


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## Valiente

Andre, we've pretty well decided to go with a windvane to tiller offshore (bypassing the hydraulics), and with an autopilot under power. We understand that 9/10ths of the "battle" with an autopilot is proper sail trim for point of sail in the first place, mainly because it is easy to trim a well-found boat to steer itself in most cases with sails alone anyway...even a fin-keeler (see Giu's video on the topic).

Having a windvane to a tillerhead PLUS an autopilot to a hydraulic ram pushing a transom-hung, keel-mounted rudder gives us two entirely independent means of self-steering...and no buried quadrant, frayed cables or rudder post tube to crack open.

I've steered under tiller alone and while it's a tad more Viking than on my smaller (tiller-only) 33 footer, it's not unreasonable if the hydraulics went and the vane fell off...


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## Stillraining

*Andre:*

About your auto pilot...I looked up the specks it says it's for up to 20K displacement...arnt you more then that?...Im at 30K on a 41' Irwin..
I have cable wheel steering so I will have to go with some other model like the 10X ( 4 grand though *eyks ) and they say up to 22K displacement?
Anyway from your experience is this an underrating on there part and will work for bigger boats?

Ps: I can See where the PO had a wheel mount auto on my boat now gone...so they are really that bad as you say? I have zero auto pilot experience...I was just going to go that route..


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## TSOJOURNER

I can skip auto pilots, especially the over priced/overhyped ray marine garbage.


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## Maine Sail

RickBowman said:


> I can skip auto pilots, especially the over priced/overhyped ray marine garbage.


Rick please enlighten us to your experiences with Raymarine pilots?


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## sailortjk1

Nice thread, once again you guys have showed me how much I don't know.
My little costal cruising, always with in 30 -50 miles of the next port, isn't in the same league of what you are discussing here. Thanks for all the insightful information.


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## tdw

What are the perceived problems with a wheel pilot ?

We have one on Raven that does the job nicely. I'd prefer it to be a tad quieter but it's not exactly horrendously noisy. We do have problem with belt slippage but this is caused by a worn wheel (pilot wheel that is) which is out of production and no longer supported.

This thing is fifteen years old and Ok it's ready for the heave ho but it does steer a most satisfactory course. Yaw is no great problem with it. 

I doubt I would ever install another one if only because of the exposure to the elements but I'd rather than a wheel pilot than nothing at all even if it was only used when under power. 

If I had my choice I'd also have a wind vane.


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## camaraderie

StillRaining...my old Irwin 44 checked in at 25k lbs....what have you got in that 41 !!?


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## Valiente

tdw said:


> What are the perceived problems with a wheel pilot ?


I think you've grasped the nettle, so to speak. There's nothing wrong with them, except that they are relatively exposed to the elements (just like most tiller pilots) and just looking at them, there isn't the mechanical advantage that other systems possess. On the other hand, they are certainly accessible!


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## lharmon

I hate to jump into this one but I do want to complain about the lack of support for otherwise functional equipment. TDW's unit would work well with a new pilot wheel.

We suffered the loss of the mounting bracket for our Autohelm 3000 last season. My 3 year old decided to stand on the control unit and it broke the *plastic* mount. Raymarine did not have any nor did anybody they knew of. I called about 15 shops they ortheir shops recommended. I was quoted big $$$$ by several machine shops to make a new one. I know it is old but it works fine and will last a lot longer with our shorter seasons in the cold north.

Why not stock a few spares?

On the other hand my Datamarine knot meter seemed to be reading funny and when I contacted them they said no problem, try this and if it doesn't work we will turn it around ASAP. What they said to try is flipping the toggle between distance and speed. See little fingers mentioned above, I still feel stupid for that one but the difference in the two company's commitment to their product is night and day. I would buy more new stuff from Datamarine but not Raymarine because they do not back their products adequately.


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## Stillraining

*Cam*

I did oversimplify a tad for speed of typing. the lift weighed it @ 27650 at last haul out. But that was empty of fuel and water so I know its has to be close to 30K ready to cruise. It is a Ketch also and does have the factory large heavy dingy davits and a swim/dive/loading platform on the stern.
You can see both in my avitar....When we hang our 14' center console with 35 hp outboard I KNOW we are over that... And still makin 8.5 knts gosh I love bigger boats...


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## Omatako

Stillraining said:


> About your auto pilot...I looked up the specks it says it's for up to 20K displacement...arnt you more then that?...Im at 30K on a 41' Irwin..


SR - we weigh in at a stated tare of 26k(lbs) in cruising form we probably gross out at about 30k (fuel, water, beer, etc). We sailed this boat in really heavy weather (downwind 7- 8 knots under bare poles) and our autopilot never wavered.

We have friends that have a 41 foot steel boat loaded with gear and he reckons he grosses 14.5 tons (metric so about 32k lbs). He has the same autopilot and swears by it after 25000 miles of cruising.

So has Raymarine undervalued their autopilot? In a word, yes.

And by the way, we also both have wheel to cable steering.

TDW - we had some form of Raytheon wheel pilot on an earlier boat. Gave us never ending issues with belt adjustments, slipping "out of gear", fluxgate calibrations going awry, several times it failed altogether and had to be repaired by electronics boffins. Eventually it let me down on a long voyage across the Indian Ocean (zip support) and I ended up hand-steering for 3500 miles singlehanded.  You have no idea the bad taste that left for me. NEVER again a wheel pilot for me. If you're interested I could probably give you a fix from my log where I deep-sixed that mother although I recollect the water was about 7000 metres deep 

I'd be interested to hear from Fleming windpilot owners. We have one fellow in Auckland who reckons this thing is the Holy Grail of wind pilots but then again when you've just parted with a bucket full of dinero that would be standard response.

Andre


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## rennisaint

I think that maybe Raymarine hasn't undervalued their product, they attempted to idiot proof it. So that some jerk-off in a Macgregor with no mainsail and his 150% genny up can flip on the autopilot and not melt the thing, then come back to Raymarine and say "hey, you guys said this would work on my boat and now it's sitting on top of a lighthouse 'cause I went down below for five or six hours and the damn thing didn't work!". So maybe that's why, when the boat is properly balanced FIRST, then the autopilot is set, you can run with a way smaller unit than the spec's say.


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## Oldsalt_1942

I think that Sensible Cruising is one of the best books written about going cruising. The essence of it is that too many people don't go because for many reasons they are waiting for the "right" boat to go in...within reason they say "take the boat you have and go."

Don't forget the motto...a small boat and a suitcase full of money beats a 40 footer tied to a bank.


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## kengoodings

Very correct about piling more gear into a boat before cruising. We're installing a new engine (ourselves) and the various improvements to the equipment supporting this new engine has cost us $5k this month.....Sheesh!
Experienced cruisers tell us......toss those marine catalogues away and just GO!!!


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## cstockard

*The couple must share the dream...*

"Now I just have to convince my love that we don't need 38' with AC and refrigeration...
Michael"

Michael wants the minimal "go simple, go small" boat. While that style of cruising can be fun, economical, and fulfilling, it sounds like too many cruises that end early when one member of a couple has one dream and the other member a diffeent one.

We've been cruising for five years now and we do see a few of the really primitive cruisers, and we see a few of the must have every accesory known to man cruisers. But most of us fit in the middle somewhere.

Having a watermaker can go a long way to improving life on a small boat. Being able to wash the salt off each day, wash dishes, or even waste a little now and then eases a strain that many couples find hard to live with over the long term. It is one thing to "camp out" on your boat for a month or so, and quite another to do it year in and year out.

Having power to run bright reading lights and a stereo makes those long dark night cozier. Sure you could use the classic oil lamp if you want to deal with finding and storing another fuel, trimming the wick, keeping the thing from getting broken, etc.

Michael needs to ask his wife what level of comfort (or discomfort?) she is willing to put up with long term. If she'd be happy living in a tent and cooking over an open fire, then go for that really simple bare boat. If she insists of air conditioning and hi-def beg screen TV then perhaps you need to find a different dream.

Relationships and cruising boats are both compromises. So seek a combination that both of you can live with. If you force her to adopt a vision she does not share you will end your cruise early or end up as yet another single hander.


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## PBzeer

Nice post cstockard. Well said.


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## vega1860

Some people would really rather just live on a big comfortable boat in a marina with shore power for the A/C, and a mast to hang the awnings and satelite dish on. It's not always the female half of the couple either. One lady we knew confided in my wife that she would rather her husband sold the 50 footer in favor of a boat more like ours so they could actually go cruising. The husband wanted to take out a mortgage to buy a bigger boat and more gear. They've lived aboard for probably twenty years but the boat owns them, not the other way around and it's so much hassle to get ready for sea that they never even go for a day sail or inter-island getaway.

He's perfectly content with marina life. She dreams of reaching down the trades for weeks at sea and deserted anchorages in French Polynesia. Every time I think of them I thank my lucky stars that Laura and I share the same dream.


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## PBzeer

Has anyone mentioned rainfall capture? A good setup to divert rainfall to the water tanks can be a relatively cheap and useful item.


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## Stillraining

*There is the crux*

of the whole mater...

In a lot of cases spouse's dont share the same dream of the cruising life style...no mater what boat they own...This would not be sensible cruising...in your analogy the woman is the only one who wants to really go...period...The guy just wants to be comfortable with his Dock Condo...

I totally believe in living within your means..but if that means stressing a relationship between spouses over what is and isn't necessary then in my mind Cruising is not the lifestyle for them...

I Have a wife that likes the water and one who is claustrophobic in a small sense...She likes bigger boats..Lucky Me..... as I do too.. just for different reasons...I like the Power, speed, openness .. I have too bad a back to be hunched over and contorted in a small boat all the time..I could go with a smaller boat but I dont want to and it would be painful for me...She could not due to the fact of her tight space phobia... Fortunately we can afford a big boat with no bank or credit holder needed...

I have said this before but will again...If I had a 27' whatever we could not cast of any faster...I still have 3 girls to put through collage ( yes Im paying for it..dont start on me as to why..I just want to.) Yes I could have paid off my house with the same money, but why do that?... Id rather have a boat to play on that my wife *wants* to be on while were here...

I See every ones situation as different and I cant see how one size fits all works...God has blessed me the ability to make a good living...Im not rich by any means..but pragmatic and determined to have what I want pretty much... It dose take time and discipline..but some times I get the feeling that unless we buy into the "go small go minimal go now" syndrome..I am some how missing out...missing out on what ? a devorse?

I do believe there are people that use the excuse that they *need* everything just perfect as a secret excuse to never leave ...because deep down they are really just plain scared and dont think they can.

Vega: I am envious of you for one thing...Your health..I would trade a big boat for a small one for that and that alone...

But such is ones lot in life...lets keep an open mind to each others needs and help them achieve their individual goal not our own mandate...

Now which one of you Scallywags on board wants a cold beer from my FRIDGE...He Heee Hee.



vega1860 said:


> Some people would really rather just live on a big comfortable boat in a marina with shore power for the A/C, and a mast to hang the awnings and satelite dish on. It's not always the female half of the couple either. One lady we knew confided in my wife that she would rather her husband sold the 50 footer in favor of a boat more like ours so they could actually go cruising. The husband wanted to take out a mortgage to buy a bigger boat and more gear. They've lived aboard for probably twenty years but the boat owns them, not the other way around and it's so much hassle to get ready for sea that they never even go for a day sail or inter-island getaway.
> 
> He's perfectly content with marina life. She dreams of reaching down the trades for weeks at sea and deserted anchorages in French Polynesia. Every time I think of them I thank my lucky stars that Laura and I share the same dream.


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## mjrogers

Cstockard, 
Very well put. I must confess I was being tongue in cheek to a degree. When we met she asked where I saw myself in 5 years. My reply was living on a sailboat in New England for the summer and the south Atlantic for the winter. Until I learn enough and can take off across the ocean. 

I've planned this out for years and can retire in 1 year when I turn 50, but I want to do this sustainably. I don't want an air conditioned dock condo with a fat monthly payment, nor do I want to do this in my 1979 Hunter 25 (it was cheap but isn't a great boat).

A compromise is in order. When she first started looking at boats she was looking and new Benateaus and Jenneaus. Then she started looking at Halberg Rasseys and Cape Dorys. Then we looked at a (I think) Ta Shing Nantuckett (I'm sure it was a Nantuckett but fuzzy about the maker). Everything else, in her eyes, pales in comparison. It was an absolutely beautiful boat. Watching her taste evolve as she learns more has been great, but that boat is out of our price range to purchase out right and a monthly payment is a deal breaker financially.

For me 30-35' costal cruiser capable of a well planned occasional bluewater trip, with a recent engine, large water tanks, solar and wind, good size galley, solar heated gravity hot water and foot pumps otherwise, a dingy capable of double duty as a life boat, and a well insulated icebox. I am mixed on a watermaker, they are only good in open clean water and I'll spend most of my time anchored along the coast.

She is very close to this but wants 38-42' with a fridge, AC, pressure hot water. We are actually quite close. I think after a few trailer trips on my Catalina 22, she will be so in love with cruising her needs will minimize. I do see pressure hot water in my future though.

I don't want an auto pilot, radar, chart plotter, forward looking sonar, satellite phone, or RIB. I don't want to camp. But as I started selling things off I become less attached to things and technology. I am more in tune with Vega's lifestyle, for instance.
Michael


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## vega1860

mjrogers said:


> Cstockard,
> Very well put. I must confess I was being tongue in cheek to a degree. When we met she asked where I saw myself in 5 years. My reply was living on a sailboat in New England for the summer and the south Atlantic for the winter. Until I learn enough and can take off across the ocean.
> 
> I've planned this out for years and can retire in 1 year when I turn 50, but I want to do this sustainably. I don't want an air conditioned dock condo with a fat monthly payment, nor do I want to do this in my 1979 Hunter 25 (it was cheap but isn't a great boat).
> 
> A compromise is in order. When she first started looking at boats she was looking and new Benateaus and Jenneaus. Then she started looking at Halberg Rasseys and Cape Dorys. Then we looked at a (I think) Ta Shing Nantuckett (I'm sure it was a Nantuckett but fuzzy about the maker). Everything else, in her eyes, pales in comparison. It was an absolutely beautiful boat. Watching her taste evolve as she learns more has been great, but that boat is out of our price range to purchase out right and a monthly payment is a deal breaker financially.
> 
> For me 30-35' costal cruiser capable of a well planned occasional bluewater trip, with a recent engine, large water tanks, solar and wind, good size galley, solar heated gravity hot water and foot pumps otherwise, a dingy capable of double duty as a life boat, and a well insulated icebox. I am mixed on a watermaker, they are only good in open clean water and I'll spend most of my time anchored along the coast.
> 
> She is very close to this but wants 38-42' with a fridge, AC, pressure hot water. We are actually quite close. I think after a few trailer trips on my Catalina 22, she will be so in love with cruising her needs will minimize. I do see pressure hot water in my future though.
> 
> I don't want an auto pilot, radar, chart plotter, forward looking sonar, satellite phone, or RIB. I don't want to camp. But as I started selling things off I become less attached to things and technology. I am more in tune with Vega's lifestyle, for instance.
> Michael
> 16 Hours Ago 02:55 PM


I think that the auto pilot and radar would come long before the pressure water system if you actually want to go anywhere away from the marina....

Oh never mind  Just bite the bullet, push back your retirement ten years and get the Nantucket.

After all, to quote Zig Ziglar: Do you want a happy wife, or just a wife?

It could be worse. Mine wants to sail around Cape Horn


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## mjrogers

I would prefer a wind vane to an autopilot, $3000 in the bank to radar, and the Med to Cape Horn. Anyway this was my dream first, when I told her the first words out of her mouth were "Can I come?" She hasn't spent enough time cruising to understand it very well. Weekending on my Hunter have helped, but a few trips with the trailer sailer will likely put things in perspective. Let me think, what else do we need to do to get her ready??? Oh yes, I'll keep her away from boats we can't afford...


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## sailingdog

Chicken...what's the fun of keeping her away from the $x,000,000 boats?



mjrogers said:


> I would prefer a wind vane to an autopilot, $3000 in the bank to radar, and the Med to Cape Horn. Anyway this was my dream first, when I told her the first words out of her mouth were "Can I come?" She hasn't spent enough time cruising to understand it very well. Weekending on my Hunter have helped, but a few trips with the trailer sailer will likely put things in perspective. Let me think, what else do we need to do to get her ready??? Oh yes, *I'll keep her away from boats we can't afford...*


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## mjrogers

Chicken!?!?!? Chicken!?!?!?!?!? I'm devastated. I'll hoist the skull and cross bones, come looking for you. Wait... I'd better ask permission first.


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## mjrogers

She said OK but wants to know if we could fit a washer, dryer, and dishwasher on a multi-hull.


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## erps

> She said OK but wants to know if we could fit a washer, dryer, and dishwasher on a multi-hull.


That's what those pontoon thingys with all that deck space is for. Bikes, lawn furniture and appliances. Just put a blue poly tarp over them when it rains.


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## sailingdog

In that case, I'd highly recommend the Melvin & Morelli designed Gunboat 62 Catamaran... more than enough room for you and the missus and anything else she'd want to bring along. You can see a great little video of one here.


mjrogers said:


> She said OK but wants to know if we could fit a washer, dryer, and dishwasher on a multi-hull.


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## mjrogers

Didn't I see plans for a big pontoon boat like that somewhere on Sailnet? I think it was home built out of 55 gallon drums, PVC pipe, and old metal shelves, or something like that. Wow, with one of those all I'd need to do is reinforce the tramp, get some ramps, and voila... foredeck parking. Of course I'm in Kentucky so I'll have to put the car on concrete blocks and I can keep an old washer next to it.


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## sailingdog

Damn, I keep forgetting what happens when you mix ******** and sailboats. 


mjrogers said:


> Didn't I see plans for a big pontoon boat like that somewhere on Sailnet? I think it was home built out of 55 gallon drums, PVC pipe, and old metal shelves, or something like that. Wow, with one of those all I'd need to do is reinforce the tramp, get some ramps, and voila... foredeck parking. Of course I'm in Kentucky so I'll have to put the car on concrete blocks and I can keep an old washer next to it.


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## mjrogers

You get sailors.


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## Valiente

Too true..."you'll get my helm when you pry my cold, dead hands off it" could be the motto around here.

I think once a 21st century man learns how to use a messenger line to re-reeve a halyard without going up the mast, he believes he's in touch with his pioneer ancestors or something...no man is an island, but if you're lucky, you're a center cockpit!


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## TSOJOURNER

What is the minimun electronics I will need to sail the Golf of Mexico, central W. Florida?


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## TSOJOURNER

*In a process to purchase New vs Used*

What is the minimun electronics I will need to sail the Golf of Mexico, central W. Florida?


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## Freesail99

Chartplotter, vhf radio, flashlite, handheld GPS. I think that is the bare minimum.


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## TSOJOURNER

Uhnnn, sorry about this. I'm very new...

We are in the process of purchasing a used Beneteau 38' o 40' Center Cockpit with the goal to live aboard here in Florida (Tampabay area) Like the Hunters but also but would like to here some sailor words about it. I'm familiar with Beneteau's, but not with Hunters.

Also, can someone tell me how I can open a new post?

Thanks


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## chris_gee

On the bottom of subforum eg cruising etc you will see open new thread. Click that.


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## TSOJOURNER

VENRICO said:


> What is the minimun electronics I will need to sail the Golf of Mexico, central W. Florida?


Legally? Nav lights...

I would consider a main and spare VHF radio and GPS as a realistic minimum also. Spares should be self powered (hadhelds which use their own batteries that you have a bunch of).

But I am not a blue water sailor, just a small boat dreamer. I love these "minimum" questions, though...


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## camaraderie

Lights, VHF, GPS, Depthsounder
if you are offshore crossing the gulf you will want an EPIRB


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## Freesail99

I never thought of or considered lights as minimum electronics but basic systems.


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## Cruisingdreamspress

A friend sailed his 28 foot Bristol Channel Cutter to Micronesia. How did it go I asked. He said the little boat sailed like a witch and he never felt threatened in rough weather. Then he pauses and I heard the approach of a but..." But," he said, "the boat was too small...to small to carry enough fuel, water and provisions. It seemed like we had to return to port every few days to stock up again."


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## TSOJOURNER

Freesail99 said:


> I never thought of or considered lights as minimum electronics but basic systems.


I think my boat gives me a warped perception sometimes. You're right; it is a basic system. I may have one of the smallest cruisers made, but it was still a big part of their advertising that you could use it for overnights. Yet it came from the factory with no lights. I know the regulations say that for boats under 7 meters you can just carry a flashlight and turn it on as needed, but that is only if you are under sail. If I turn on the motor, I have to have lights and it did come from the factory with a motor mount. Even then, I still have the option of just using a single white light if I keep my speed under 7 kts.

Lights of one kind or another are on the short list (I posted on that earlier).


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## vega1860

halekai36 said:


> My suggestion is read as much as you can, but don't worship, and be sure to know what works for YOU not some author. When I say author that includes MY list of what works for ME above. If you find something in my list or an authors book useful to YOU then adopt it but don't do as some do and blindly accept a printed authors word for it just because it was in a "book"...


Just so...and when you find yourself throwing the book across the cabin and yelling "Hogwash!" it's time to stop reading and go cruising.


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## GypsyHawk

*Essential safety electronics for cruising??*

Have come late to this informative thread and have a question about what others may see as essential, optional or unnecessary for offshore cruising - particularly what are some views on installing an AIS transponder.

I am currently preparing my boat, a Van De Stadt Helena 38, for extended cruising. I agree with all that has been said about simple and minimal systems but am at the point of deciding on installing both radar and a Comar AIS transponder (strongly advocated by my wife and sailing partner who has fears of ships at night  ).


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## tdw

GypsyHawk said:


> Have come late to this informative thread and have a question about what others may see as essential, optional or unnecessary for offshore cruising - particularly what are some views on installing an AIS transponder.
> 
> I am currently preparing my boat, a Van De Stadt Helena 38, for extended cruising. I agree with all that has been said about simple and minimal systems but am at the point of deciding on installing both radar and a Comar AIS transponder (strongly advocated by my wife and sailing partner who has fears of ships at night  ).


What do these AIS transponders cost ?

I'm afraid I think radar on a small craft is a waste of money unless you happen to live/cruise in a particularly foggy area.

Only problem I see with things like the AIS gear is that you need to be running a chart plotter, be that stand alone or computer. Are you really going to run that thing 24 hours a day ? If not then the security is a tad illusory.

We rely more on paper charts than the plotter when out and about. Indeed I use my small hand held gps more than the other. Maybe I would use plotter more if it was computer based but even then would I ? That's an awful lot of power drain.


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## GypsyHawk

*Ais*

AIS transponder costs around $1400 (Aust), which imo makes it a better proposition than just installing a receiver. Will also have to install another VHF antennna. I think peace of mind comes in knowing that the big ships can see you as much as knowing what commercial shipping is around - we know they don't always see or even look on radar. Also an advantage in knowing the call sign of that ship heading your way from the horizon.

A display in the cockpit runs at around 3 amps or less I believe, while a laptop may draw twice that much. The AIS unit itself draws very little power. I will use the laptop for passage planning and as a chartplotter backup only.


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## chuck5499

tdw said:


> What do these AIS transponders cost ?
> 
> I'm afraid I think radar on a small craft is a waste of money unless you happen to live/cruise in a particularly foggy area.
> 
> i think i will disagree on the radar - they are very valuable in heavy shipping lanes - especially at night - i have a raymarine 2kw and it calculates the other ships speed, course, and closest approach and time to closest approach - can put it in standby mode and check it occassionally to see what is out there -
> also very handy when storms are about - can steer around them or if not get well prepared before they hit
> just my thoughts
> chuck and svsoulmates
> ki4sry
> full time cruiser - on the hook in cambridge,md


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## jnsailing

*Ais*

If traveling shipping channels then an AIS receiver is nice to have. Knowing where those big boys are can put your mind at ease. The transponders are another issue. As a VTC friend of mine says "they are intended for commercial shipping. If every little boat with the bucks to burn goes out and buys one VTC will not be able to read their screens." My feeling is as long as I know where they are I will take the steps to avoid them - they are generally not able to maneuver around me anyways.

John N.


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## pfbanyas

I think it is important to stress that sensible is in the eye's of the beholder. We all have different ideas of sensible based on our perception of what makes us comfortable. Don't change your perception of what you consider comfortable to conform to other peoples opinions of what is "sensible" to have on your boat. You can always expect someone to criticize but what the heck as long as you are comfortable and have what you want (not just what you may need) at anchor or in a marina you are good to go. 

I have redundent GPS/chartplotter systems, several VHFs, Radar, laptop with PDA backup, air conditioning, refrigeration/icemaker, generator, invertors, dinghy, inflatable, outboard, bow thruster, the kitchen sink, and a huge pilothouse with side deck and back deck doors. When I go places I am comfortable and if something fails (except that trusty perkins, knock on wood) I can continue my trip while a new part meets me at a future port of call. I can sail or motor and regardless the weatherand and I am comfortable.

I would suggest that the primary guide to use in outfitting for cruising is your perception of what "you" need to be/feel comfortable because being sensible (having, using, or showing good sense or sound judgment) implies that you would not undertake a lifestyle where you were not comfortable right. Take ideas from forum posts but let your comfort level temper the ideas to your level of "sensible".


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## MoonSailer

Henry David Thoreau made an argument about using a box as a place to live. I guess this was before modern nylon backpacking tents. Having spent some time backpacking I must say that almost any boat is better than a backpacking tent. But after 4-5 days out in the woods carrying my house on my back I was ready for some creature comforts!!!!! I love HDT and his ideals have influenced my life. But how minimal can you go???? My Pearson 323 is about as small as I want for a week or two. I guess that my wife and I will go cruising next year and use the P323 at first. If we love the cruising lifestyle we will probably buy a larger boat. But if we are happy cruising in the P323 we will keep cruising in that boat. The main argument from sensible cruising IMHO was that you should go cruising not waste your life planning to go cruising. I know that I am chicken **** and going cruising is scarey. Sitting around for years planning to go criusing is much less scarey!!!! Loading up the boat and going is difficult and I will probably use any excuse to procrastinate actually casting off the lines that hold me firmly attached to life on shore.


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## tdw

MoonSailer said:


> The main argument from sensible cruising IMHO was that you should go cruising not waste your life planning to go cruising. I know that I am chicken **** and going cruising is scarey. Sitting around for years planning to go criusing is much less scarey!!!! Loading up the boat and going is difficult and I will probably use any excuse to procrastinate actually casting off the lines that hold me firmly attached to life on shore.


And ain't that the troof.

Well said.

(There is a mea culpa attached.)


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## TSOJOURNER

Thanks,

Mu wife and I are still searching por a boat and now are pointing to some Catamarans.


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## tdw

VENRICO said:


> Thanks,
> 
> Mu wife and I are still searching por a boat and now are pointing to some Catamarans.


Don't you try and blame that on me !!!!


----------



## erps

> If traveling shipping channels then an AIS receiver is nice to have. Knowing where those big boys are can put your mind at ease. The transponders are another issue. As a VTC friend of mine says "they are intended for commercial shipping. If every little boat with the bucks to burn goes out and buys one VTC will not be able to read their screens." My feeling is as long as I know where they are I will take the steps to avoid them - they are generally not able to maneuver around me anyways.


True, but when you're off shore on the night watch, having an AIS transponder is probably pretty good insurance. I understand from another thread that they haven't been approved yet for small craft in the US, but can be purchased from other countries.

Latitude 38 - The West's Premier Sailing & Marine Magazine


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## denverd0n

erps said:


> I understand from another thread that they haven't been approved yet for small craft in the US, but can be purchased from other countries.


Yes, but if you intend to buy it elsewhere and then bring it into the U.S. beware that you may have a problem. I've been searching, but cannot find the story I read sometime back. Maybe it is a figment of my imagination, but I am sure that I read that someone who attempted to do that had his class B AIS transceiver confiscated by customs when he tried to bring it into the U.S. on a U.S. registered boat.


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## vega1860

That's odd. When we arrived off Cape Flattery last summer and checked it with Tofino Traffic they asked us to turn on our AIS. We didn't have one but I've been considering getting a receiver to keep track of commercial vessels in low visibility situations as we don't have radar. (Waiting for radar to get small enough to be practical on my 27 footer)


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## Dick Pluta

I traded in my basic Pearson 30 for an Islander Freeport 41 with generator, A/C, etc. Neither one is perfect for two. In the Pearson, we had to clean up dinner and put away the table before going to bed. In the morning the same thing the other way round to have breakfast. The bunk in the cabin is just a bit too small for two people. Storage in almost non existent. We ended up with a bunch of blue plastic totes in the quarter berth. It's no fun to pull out everything to get something out of the box in the back and then put it all back when you're done. If you're into camping that's fine but, for any length of time, not for us. Having to turn sideways to pass each other in the cabin gets old in a hurry. In fairness, the Pearson is more a weekender or big day sailer and there are other, smaller boats that are better thought out for cruising.

The Islander, on the other hand, is probably a bit too big. I can handle her myself, no problem, and the comfort is really nice but the PO wasn't real big on maintenance and I spend WAY too much time keeping things running. Almost every pump needed repair or replacement. Half the stuff didn't work. When something stopped, the PO just stopped using it. In fairness, on a 30 year old boat, stuff happens but in this case maintenance was definitely deferred too long. Little by little, I'm getting things into shape and, I think, once I get everything shipshape things should calm down but I still think she's a bit too big for two. Don't forget that the cost of everything goes up by the cube of the length...dockage, hauling, everything.

For our lifestyle the best boat I have seen is the Islander Freeport 36 with the stateroom layout. Lots of room, a nice big bunk, comfortable cockpit, plenty of storage packaged in a hull that is a decent sailer. There are others with a similar layout. Unless you plan to make trans Pacific voyages where you need a snug sea berth for the times you're crashing through waves as big as an apartment building not the right boat, but I think most of us who cruise spend a lot more time hopping from port to port and at anchor that in long offshore passages. What's right for you depends on your style, but I think waiting for "the perfect boat" is foolish. My Pearson "wasn't the right boat" but it was a boat and we put on lots of miles together. I sailed her for over 20 years before I traded up. I would paraphrase the cruising wisdom. Go as small as you can tolerate, go as simple as you can deal with, go as soon as possible. An extra year of cruising in misery is no joy.

Dick Pluta


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## sailormanbigd

*minimalism*

hi, thanks for the post, exactly what i was looking for-almost. While I applaud the posts on "concept", I require more details. Sure you can cruise on a 20 footer or a 60+ footer but what exactly do you require relating to amenities/systems. I am currently rebuilding a Morgan 33 outisland and am looking for advice pertainning to minimal systems required. I have to build floor and bulkheads and all systems including propulsion. I got the boat for free and it is big and wide so i think i will name her "free willy". I am specifically looking for a reduced maintainance situation. So, are candles ok for lighting, kerosene, is hatch hood ok for ventilation (plan on sailing the tropics), is alcohol stove ok for cooking, don't know bout the head, which is mostly foolproof. How much water and fuel storage is needed or desired? What about water maker, ice maker, solar panels, battery size, etc, etc? I had the best time when camping primitive, solar shower, coleman lantern and cook stove, etc. Thanks for any input. This topic is exactly what i came here looking for. Patrick


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## sailormanbigd

Also, what is a must have for the Admiral.


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## MoonSailer

It all depends upon the person. Do you require ice and cold beer??? If so refrigeration is a must have. Do you watch a lot of television??? Are you afraid of fog and need a radar unit. Do you get hot and desire air conditioning??? We need to work on our boat a Pearson 323 which is probably too small for a couple. My first concern is a seaworthy boat. We have refrigeration that we don't use but it can be improved and used. I figure that I need two more batteries and have bought a solar panel to power the frig. I have rarely encountered fog so rada is a low priority. A new inflatable is on the wish list but we have decided that for us a life raft is probably not worth the expense. We will be mostly coastal and the inflatable should be all we need. A new bladder type water tank so that we can carry more water!!!! We can only carry 35 gallons now which is ok but if we go to the Bahamas an extra 30 gallons or more would be nice. Maybe 6 X 5 gallon containers that can be easily transported in a dinghy??? We would like to be able to carry scuba gear but there just is not room. In a larger boat I would also want a scuba tank compressor. We have a alcohol stove that works but is not ideal. Propane would be nice but is not in our plans right now. The list can be endless. That is what I love about ""Sensible Sailing"" the advice to go cruising now. Leaving the dock is so scarey. It is so much less scarey to work on the boat. I met a guy who was building an airplane. He was not a pilot!!!!! Flying a small airplane makes sailing seem absolutely safe. Sitting in his garage building an airplane was even safer than sailing!!!!! Me when I wanted to fly I rented a airplane and went flying. Absolutely no desire to spend years building an airplane. Though I must admit that I met another guy who had built a Long EZ which is an amazing airplane. Of course he was a pilot who was flying while he was working on his airplane at night and on weekends. He took me flying and I was amazed at how cool the long EZ is to fly. Not particularly comfortable but very fast. But back to my point. Ask yourself if you want to go sailing and when. We are planning to go cruising next year but have been sailing every chance we get for the last 18 years.... Our boat is very far from perfect and is usually dirty but we would rather go sailing.


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## ckgreenman

Abosolutely MUST have a queen sized bed. No Exceptions!!!! My wife and I make full use of the entire bed at night so it must be big. To us, "cozy" just means too f'ing small.


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## Stillraining

Well... Land Ho...Welcome back Sailorman...I have asked several times about you over at SBO with not much luck...Hows the Boat Hows the Boys? Still have the use of the free dock? Did you install the Lazyboy and couch yet... Find an engine yet? Still Nursing?

Glad to see you havent given up

There is a good lot over here.

Again Welcome back Patrick

Post some updated pictures of her


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## casioqv

Thoreau is awesome, and I've found this book very helpful in separating the necessary skills and equipment, from the pointless obstacles/expenses. My $800 Catalina 22 is extremely comfortable for coastal cruising with two people. Anything bigger would just mean more time working on/paying for the boat- and less sailing. 

Here's what I've found to be worthwhile equipment for ~1 week cruising:

Dining:
small propane BBQ
small cooler with carrying handle (keeps ice for 1 week)
fishing and snorkeling gear for obtaining free seafood
high quality plastic silverware/plates
high quality coffee (NOT folgers), ground just before trip, and placed in empty tea bags for brewing

Plumbing:
stainless steel bowl for a sink
porta-potty
solar shower (aka black plastic bag)

Navigation:
$50 GPS
free paper charts- (printed out on-line, and taped together)
handheld compass
pencil
ruler

Safety:
electric trolling motor w/ charger and batteries
PVC raft w/ oars
life vests
jacklines & harnesses
manual and electric bilge pumps
electric depth sounder
good anchor and chain, no windlass
handheld marine radio
flares
fire extinguisher


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## Cruisingdreamspress

*The Best Days*

Sailing simply in a Catalina 22 reminded me of an encounter with such a boat by a multi million dollar yacht. Both were anchored. Towering above the 22 the owner of the mega yacht looked down at the skipper of the 22 and with a far off look in his eyes said...hey son, I use to own a boat that size and those were the best days of my life.


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## casioqv

And when the sailor has got his boat, he may not be the richer but the poorer for it, and it be the boat that has got him.

I intend to purchase a boat which will surpass any on the marina in grandeur and luxury, as soon as it pleases me as much and will cost me no more than my present one.

Thoreau quotes edited for context 

I'm 25 and my wife is 24- we just recently graduated from college. When I told people I was looking at buying a sailboat, they said I should wait until I'm older and I can buy a nice one. But for less money than a new laptop computer, we're cruising NOW with more than enough comfort and safety to spare.


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## CaptainForce

I don't think there is a meaningful answer to the "minimum required" for cruising and I won't attempt to share my list. It may be best for the individual to determine their own minimums for risk/safety management, comfort management, and performance management. I scoff at some of the essentials listed above and I strongly agree with others. Many differences will result with the style of cruising too. We are "cockpit potatoes" that travel in the best of selected weather and we avoid commitments to arrival dates. Certainly, the cost of cruising and equipment is another variable. My advice as a liveaboard cruiser for four decades is to take care and joy, Aythya crew


----------



## pwillems

*How about if money isn't an issue?*

This is really a very interesting topic for me... How about if money wasn't an issue? Most arguments I have seen here for the ideal cruising boat are based around the exponential increase in purchase and upkeep costs of the systems with each eack extra foot of LOA.

I have had the dream of cruising for most of my life, though, I never thought it would be possible for an average Joe like me. Just recently, out of the blue, my wife also started talking about this and we have decided we were going to make it happen. We have started seriously cutting down on our already modest "lifestyle" and were thinking 15 to 20 years from now we should have been able to save enough and have enough investments to buy something suitable and keep on cruising it until we no longer feel like it is fun. Now just recently, we have had some luck and it looks like the 15 to 20 years saving are not going to be necessary. We could probably set off in a year or two if it wasn't for a child with special needs who needs a stable life close to the services he requires.

In short, in around 10 years when we set off, if all goes well, we should be in a relatively good position and probably not overly concerned about the cost of the boat and it's upkeep (within reason). In a case like this what would be the ideal boat for long term cruising? Would you still stick to a smaller vessel with less systems but a nicer pedigree (Tayana, IPY etc...) or rather go for something larger with room for plenty of toys to make the trip fun, a washing machine and a happy wife?


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## bljones

pwillems said:


> This is really a very interesting topic for me... How about if money wasn't an issue?


Aye, there's the rub. Money is always an issue. Money may not determine the size and quality of the boat you set off in, as needs and mantenance skills play a big part here. A licensed diesel mechanic with a combined honours degree in naval architecture and electrical engineering who is 5'6" and single has different needs than a 6' tall family man who is all thumbs and has 5 kids. BUT money will detemine how long you can cruise without refilling the kitty. Which often gets back to skills and maintenance. if you can't fix what breaks, and things break often because you don't know how to fix them, you are going to see your underway repair budget balloon, which causes your passage budget to shrink.
Perhaps our boats also tend to reflect our self-image. For example i am drawn to boats that are short, wide, comfy capable, slow but loaded with character... in other words, unhansome..


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## pwillems

bljones said:


> Aye, there's the rub. Money is always an issue. Money may not determine the size and quality of the boat you set off in, as needs and mantenance skills play a big part here.


Yes, agreed most definitely... But what if money isn't an issue. I mean what if you can afford that brand spanking new Lagoon 400 with all the desirables from the options list that all the "cruising" magazines tell us we must have... And once you have it, you still have enough kitty left to cruise indefinitely and afford the upkeep (doing what you can yourself and getting someone else to do what you can't).

On that basis, are there any valid arguments to stick to something smaller and simpler? And are these arguments strong enough to ignore the old dictum I live by: "Happy wife, happy life".


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## casioqv

pwillems said:


> On that basis, are there any valid arguments to stick to something smaller and simpler?


Well, my C22 can be quickly trailered to unique sailing destinations with a comfortable Volvo station wagon, it's easier to sail, and needs less maintenance. If money was no object I might (or might not) get a bigger boat or better equipment, but I doubt I'd have more fun as a result.

Someday I might want a bigger boat if I have time to do a long bluewater trip, if I have the option to live-aboard, or if I had kids and needed more room.


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## bljones

pwillems said:


> But what if money isn't an issue. I mean what if you can afford that brand spanking new Lagoon 400 with all the desirables from the options list that all the "cruising" magazines tell us we must have... And once you have it, you still have enough kitty left to cruise indefinitely and afford the upkeep (doing what you can yourself and getting someone else to do what you can't).
> 
> .


In that case, I am available for adoption.

There is a sweet spot between having enough room and having too much boat for you to manage. And that sweet spot is likely different for each person, family or couple. Some couples are perfectly happy with a 25' boat. Other families require a Lagoon for crusing the carib. Others want to circumnavgate in comfort, so a crewed 65' boat is the only option they will choose. 
The type of cruising you want to do plays a role. If you want to gunkhole, then draft becomes an issue. Circumnavigation? different needs. Determine where you want to go and how you want to go, and find the boat that best suits YOU.


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## pwillems

bljones said:


> There is a sweet spot between having enough room and having too much boat for you to manage. And that sweet spot is likely different for each person, family or couple. Some couples are perfectly happy with a 25' boat. Other families require a Lagoon for crusing the carib. Others want to circumnavgate in comfort, so a crewed 65' boat is the only option they will choose.
> The type of cruising you want to do plays a role. If you want to gunkhole, then draft becomes an issue. Circumnavigation? different needs. Determine where you want to go and how you want to go, and find the boat that best suits YOU.


That's exactly where I was taking this... My feeling is that money has lot to do in what is "essential" gear and what makes an ideal cruising boat probably just as much as seaworthiness. Yes, of course if we are going to be all "purist", that sub 30 footer with a sextant, a compass and an old salt at the helm is probably a very noble way to look at the question... but IMHO reality is that for most of us, the size of our boat and the extent of gear we carry on our boats will be much more to do with what we can afford rather than what is considered "sensible cruising" as per the original post.

Again, IMHO... what do I know after all. The only thing I've cruised so far is the net. Lots to learn.


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## eryka

pwillems said:


> This is really a very interesting topic for me... How about if money wasn't an issue? Most arguments I have seen here for the ideal cruising boat are based around the exponential increase in purchase and upkeep costs of the systems with each eack extra foot of LOA.
> 
> ...
> 
> In short, in around 10 years when we set off, if all goes well, we should be in a relatively good position and probably not overly concerned about the cost of the boat and it's upkeep (within reason). In a case like this what would be the ideal boat for long term cruising? Would you still stick to a smaller vessel with less systems but a nicer pedigree (Tayana, IPY etc...) or rather go for something larger with room for plenty of toys to make the trip fun, a washing machine and a happy wife?


We chose a smaller boat than we could afford but the largest boat we could handle - smaller lighter sails, small enough that we could warp her around by hand if things went sour (or just to turn around in a slip so we could leave when we wanted to and not wait on tides/currents); use our dinghy to be our own 'towboat'. For us, that was a heavy traditional-looking 33-footer. The downside is that the short waterline makes her slow.

I may have missed what type of cruising you're planning, and that has to factor into your decision as well - our present boat is not one I'd cross the Pacific in, or go to Alaska, but it's perfect for coastal & limited bluewater cruising in the tropics. For example, very large opening hatches make it easy to keep the boat cool and breezy.

As for the washing machine - faggeddaboudit. If you REALLY want happy wife, plan your budget to allow giving your laundry to one of the locals to wash & fold & return it to you next day.


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## pwillems

eryka said:


> As for the washing machine - faggeddaboudit. If you REALLY want happy wife, plan your budget to allow giving your laundry to one of the locals to wash & fold & return it to you next day.


Now that's a bit sexist... Who said my wife would be the one operating the washing machine? She's got me rather well trained :laugher


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## wind_magic

pwillems said:


> That's exactly where I was taking this... My feeling is that money has lot to do in what is "essential" gear and what makes an ideal cruising boat probably just as much as seaworthiness. Yes, of course if we are going to be all "purist", that sub 30 footer with a sextant, a compass and an old salt at the helm is probably a very noble way to look at the question... but IMHO reality is that for most of us, the size of our boat and the extent of gear we carry on our boats will be much more to do with what we can afford rather than what is considered "sensible cruising" as per the original post.


I think that is probably true for a lot of people, that they get as "much" boat as they can - it certainly seems to be true for cars, houses, and whatever else people buy. Many people do grow out of that eventually, however.


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## wind_magic

wind_magic said:


> I think that is probably true for a lot of people, that they get as "much" boat as they can - it certainly seems to be true for cars, houses, and whatever else people buy. Many people do grow out of that eventually, however.


I wanted to add something to this.

I think that a reasonable person will eventually get to the point where they see a boat in terms of its suitability for its purpose and choose a sensible boat even though they could afford "more". Many things in this world are just fine the way they are, a spoon for example, it could be bigger, have a longer handle, be more ornate, made out of gold, or whatever, but you know, adding all that stuff to a spoon doesn't make it a better spoon, it has been adapted over a long period of time by many generations of people to be what it is - just the right size, shape, length, weight, made out of the right materials, with the right surface finish, etc, to be good for what it is used for, eating. There's really just not much you can do to a spoon to make it a better spoon, it is perfectly suited to the needs of the human beings who use it. I think at some point people start to see boats in the same way, yes, you can buy a much bigger boat, you can load it up with all kinds of junk, base it on all kinds of exotic designs, etc, but in the end there is a boat out there for most people that just fits, and it probably isn't the biggest one. Human beings average a certain size, can lift a certain amount, handle sails of a certain size, move at a certain average speed, can be expected to deal with a certain amount of complexity, etc, and when you look at it as a whole certain boats just make good sense, good sensible sense.


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## IslanderGuy

I have not done any long term cruising at this point, just weekend to multi-week trips, but I do plan too and so have been studying these types of issues for a long time. Now, I will not have the unlimited budget "problem", in fact we will need to fall into the extremely frugal cruisers crowd, so perhaps I bias my opinions to make myself feel better but here is one small thing I noticed...

I read a lot of blogs, books, magazine articles, etc of people, most very much better off then me financially who are cruising and one thing I often notice is how often they are waiting around because something broke, Things I do not even have on my boat. (This is just a huge generalization, and not meant to be negative in anyway toward anyone.) 

I seem to read a lot of things like "So we are stuck in this port while we wait for X part to get shipped in, and then Y broke, and now we need to wait for three more weeks for the only repair guy to get to it and we really want to get going before the next storm blows in." And often times all the things that are breaking are things I will likely not be able to afford on my boat.

No matter how much money you have, even if you can pay someone to do everything, you still need to wait around for the parts and the people to be available to get the job done. I realize that a LOT of things will break on my old boat as well, but simply put, the fewer systems, the fewer things CAN break. 

Of course few systems and smaller boats have huge negatives too. A lot less daily comfort, less room for things, no freezer, so not as fancy of food. I'm not knocking big boats or cool toys, but for me, a big part of the dream of cruising is to get away from the headaches of dealing with way more stuff then I need. Even if I could pay someone to fix it, I would still need to arrange it, wait for the guy to show up, make sure he does a god job, dealing with the effects if he doesn't, etc.

I agree for everyone there is a "sweet spot" to shoot for. I am still young(ish) and can give up a lot more comfort. As with all things in boats, it is a balancing act on a personal scale. But I think I see a lot of people being unhappy when it is not as easy to just throw money at a problem while cruising as it was back home.

Of course, I'll be rowing around to all the big boats looking to bum ice from their freezers, or asking if they got the weather report off their satellite system.


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## wind_magic

wind_magic said:


> Many things in this world are just fine the way they are, a spoon for example, it could be bigger, have a longer handle, be more ornate, made out of gold, or whatever, but you know, adding all that stuff to a spoon doesn't make it a better spoon, it has been adapted over a long period of time by many generations of people to be what it is - just the right size, shape, length, weight, made out of the right materials, with the right surface finish, etc, to be good for what it is used for, eating. There's really just not much you can do to a spoon to make it a better spoon, it is perfectly suited to the needs of the human beings who use it.


Off topic, but related to the above ..

I wanted four black metal 3" C clamps, the kind you can get at any auction, something I can maintain with a little tool oil from time to time and keep on the boat. I went to Lowes, they had some kind of galvanized clamps, and I was getting ready to buy them and thought, you know, I know it is weird, but I'd rather just have the black metal ones like the bigger clamps I have, I wanted them to match.  So I decided to go to Home Depot. There they couldn't do metal colors at all, they decided to powder coat theirs a crimson red. By this time it has become a mission! Fine, Ace hardware maybe ? Nope, they had some kind of construction orange metal paint on theirs. Another store maybe ? No they had the same kind of paint except theirs was a battleship gray color. Finally gave up and went to the antique store and found them. That's what I was talking about above, why is it that people have to complicate everything, what's wrong with a black metal 3" C clamp that manufacturers seem to think they have to improve on it ? The thing is better without the color powder coat or paint that is going to chip off the first time it bangs against another tool.

I know, I'm getting fussy as I get older.


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## Whitewings2003

*reply*

I went in a 38 ft Ingrid, I had single handed all over the San Juans and leaving from Port Angeles to La Paz. I was at the very limit of what a 63 year old guy could handle. Go now!


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## m050120

So, I've finally made it all the way through this forum and I must say, I think everyone is pretty much in agreement that there is no one size fits all category. There are obviously benefits and detractors for every decision. 

My wife and I are two years away from "retiring" ( at the ripe old age of 31) and going on an open ended cruise. I've been watching boats and prices and I have decided that the majority of what we will end up with will be based on what is on the boat when we buy it. There are a few items that I plan on adding regardless of how the boat is equipped though. My Admiral has made it clear that she would value a water maker, which I plan on piecing together. I also want to have a SSB with a pactor modem for communication to make our lives easier and reduce the amount of worrying our families will do. 

Of course there are some niceties on my short list, like a small GPS plotter (Garmin 441s) and the Standard Horizon GX2100 (my thought being that the AIS will replace the need for radar in terms of being run down by large ships at night or in the fog). But if the boat already has an equivalent in good working order, I would hesitate to rip it out. 

We'll carry the typical redundant battery powered alternatives, but we've worked hard to save enough to make this dream financially achievable and I know that it will take some restraint on my part to not load up the boat and deplete our "cushion funds." 

There are a lot of well equipped cruisers out there, whether the PO gave up on the dream, or is ready to switch boats. Our biggest concern is where to get the boat. Most of the boats that have some of the gear we want (good ground tackle, cruising sails, some of the above mentioned gadgets) are located on the coast, while we are in Chicago. We'll have to decide if want to try to equip something here ( I imagine it might be difficult to find someone with a lot of experience installing SSBs in the midwest) or if we want to move a boat here to move onto it ($$), or do we rent a truck and take what will fit and drive right to a marina in FL?


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## medicrene

If you want a perfect boat and perfect equipment for cruising, then consider a new hobby. If you wait for pefect you will never go. New boats and equipment have new and hidden problems. Old boats have the same old problems. Choose your set of problems, but there will alwyas be problems.

The best thing needed to cruise is an attitude that you can do it and an accpetance that it is time to do it. My wife and I will start our circumnavigation on May 3rd (weather permitting).

As for things I like on a boat? I like a large refrigerator/Freezer. I also like having a spare bedroom for guests. As such, we have a Hudson Force 50. Lots of room, but still small enough to single hand. We train to single hand, but sail double handed or with guests.

Sail with what you have. Enjoy what it gives you. That is the best way to enjoy sailing.

The Witchdoctor.


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## Brent Swain

I cruised for my first 17 years, and several Pacific crossings, mostly full time, before I installed my first battery and electrical system , or VHF on my boat. Never had refrigeration and never missed it. Never had a watermaker, nor ham radio, till a few years ago.


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## unomio

We took the minimalist approach with our first cruising boat, a Pacific Seacraft 37. It was safe, fun to sail, and I could handle it alone in all but really bad weather. It didn't have refrigeration, a genset, or a watermaker (no real space) yet carried enough food and water for the two of us for weeks. Perfect boat--for some people, and we've seen a good number of 37's out here--but just too small. The Pacific Seacraft 40 is barely enough to really live on, especially if you're not hanging out on small palm-fringed islands or in the water most of the time (I can't be in the sun--melanoma). It has all the goodies, but I can't handle the sails except in the calmest weather. I think the best answer is to ask yourself what you want to do and where you want to go. If the answer is, "Both high and low latitudes, water sports and (classical) concerts in the cities," you'll need more room for clothes (including warm weather shorts and cold weather sweaters), equipment, a cabin heater, refrigeration (or at least a truly competent icebox), more charts, more spares, etc. If you want to go to deserted islands you'll need to be prepared to fix everything yourself, and provide all the necessary parts. My experience (and we've cruised for 45 years and been away from the US for three years now, messing around in the South Pacific and repairing the boat in exotic locations) is that guys like spartan and the gals prefer a few more comforts. Interesting, though, how my dear hubby has borrowed my craft gear to repair electronics, plumbing, and even the gen set.... 

And oh yeah--here in New Zealand we've been awfully glad to have the Espar cabin heater.


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## master80

All of a sudden thinking...something! different.
does anyone know some low viscosity high molecular weight oils? At least 15 carbons preferred..

Thanks in advance



No sailing for now!


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## misfits

I've spent the last week cruising thru this thread & watching Vega1860's videos "Pacific Crossing". To spend 55 days at sea sounds like a dream to me but for others (my wife, LOL) it would be pure hell.

For a 4 year old thread, there is a lot of good information here.

You just have to do whatever it is that feels right for you. Does it really matter if it's a 40footer or a 26 footer if you're out there doing it? I think not.


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## EJO

Plumper said:


> Why did you choose Amsteel?
> 
> Regarding boat size, one of my problems is berth size. Being 6'6" I chose my boat because of its bunk lengths not boat size. I think that the fun on a sailboat is inversely proportional to size.


Good point about size, yea at 300 lbs it is hard to use a quarter berth although when in it you won't roll much:laugher


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## SV Dayenu

Hello,
Been "lurker" here for quite a while before recently registering. Need to get a few more posts in before I can share photos.

I discovered this thread and was hoping it was referring to the "Sensible Cruising" book! I LOVE that book! One of MANY I won on cruising.

Met my wife on match.com 10 years ago, VERY happily married for 5 and only discovered she aw a sailor after we met! We BOTH have years of blue water sailing and have no interest in ocean crossing. When I lived in Los Angeles, I always had a larger cruising boat. When I moved up to Oregon, I thought my sailing days were over. Discovered a little San Juan 21 covered in blackberry vines, restored her and trailered her up to the San Juan Islands.... That's when I realized that although I owned "cruising" boats in LA, I never had the time to saail to where I wanted to cruise. With the little SJ 21 I found myself cruising for 2 weeks in an area I only dreamed of before.

new goal: Find a leagally trailerable bot I could take to the ICW, Sea of Cortez etc, and spend tmy time "Gunkholing"... Tresa totally agreed and after searching for a boa that filled our requirements (Standing headdroom, capable of taking "some" foul weather with LOTS of interior space, we decided on (of all things), A 26' Chrysler swing keel.

As others have posted here, size is not as important as personal needs, ability to get out there and safety. We spent a week on her without stepping off to see if our new purchase was crazy, or would we have the room to live comfortable on her without getting in each other's way. Our only complaint: On a large lake, there was no place new to "cruise to"! LOL!

So for "us". gunkoling, short outer passages and visiting new ports, anchoring etc, this boat is perfect! We will have solar, it came with autopilot and MUCH MORE. I'm designing a galley re-fit with freezer/refrigeration (I'm a prototype designer and have a shop where I can create anything! We're hoping to get to the San Juans this coming summer and renting the house and sailing the ICW after that.

Just wanted to thank all who posted here and share that i was pleased to see many posts sharing that even a C22 can serve the needs of some. I guess size/accommodations really is a personal preference! 



richard


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