# The Perfect Catamaran?



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

Is this the Perfect Catamaran ?

"Winged technology has as many advantages for the 40-50 foot boat owner and
operator as it does for the superyacht operator. It's hands free, it's
safe, it's green and it has lower maintenance costs. It takes virtually no
manpower to keep a wing upright and to monitor the controls, yet traditional
soft sails require knowledgeable bodies to make sail changes and to trim
them. Thin-filmed solar sheets reduce fuel costs, because you're not running
engines all of the time to recharge batteries. It's a lot less expensive to
replace individual panels on wing elements than it is to replace old sails,"
said an enthusiastic Pete Melvin who is looking forward to seeing winged
multihull fleets of all sizes circling the globe.

Computer controled WingSailTM and sail-by-wire capability what are your thoughts?


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Wingsail-

First major problem with that design is weight aloft. That's got to add a lot of weight up high, where a catamaran, or for that matter any sailboat, can really least afford it.

Second major problem is you can't reef the sails. If you get caught out in a storm by that, you're toast.

Third, sail by wire is not a feasible reality when it comes to small sailboats, and even that beast is a small sailboat by my standards. The electrical/electronics on a small sailboat are a luxury and should not be relied upon for mission critical systems unless there is a manual backup.

Also, seeing as this is your first post here, I would highly recommend you read the *POST* on full disclosure, since I am guessing that you have some relationship to the designer or maker of that wingsail.

I'd also highly recommend you read the *POST* in my signature to help you get the most out of your time here. It has tips on searching sailnet, writing a good post, etc.. Welcome to the asylum.


----------



## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Looks like a standard M and M (Leopard) with a wishful piece of ghost tech stuck on in place of a mast and sail. With no foresail I bet it points just as poorly as it looks like it will.

The perfect catamaran for me is the one I already own.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

And yours is far less likely to get turtled in a storm. 

BTW, it probably won't point for crap, but it probably won't go downwind all that well either...not much surface area there for the wind to catch.



chucklesR said:


> Looks like a standard M and M (Leopard) with a wishful piece of ghost tech stuck on in place of a mast and sail. With no foresail I bet it points just as poorly as it looks like it will.
> 
> The perfect catamaran for me is the one I already own.


----------



## SecondWindNC (Dec 29, 2008)

To me it looks hideous and I share SD's concerns about weight aloft and what to do when things get nasty.


----------



## EscapadeCaliber40LRC (Sep 25, 2006)

Looks like an aeroplane with one wing in the water. Wonder at what wind speed it will kite ? Reminds me of that unfortunate crew on the South africa to Seattle delivery that were lost a year or two back off the Oregon coast. Sad.


----------



## fullkeel7 (Apr 16, 2008)

Well, I just hope they get some testing done on this thing before the descendants of Orville and Wilbur sue for a Kitty Hawk patent infringement. Looks like they may be missing a wing section and some tail assemblies.....Quick, someone check the museum!! But hey, it might work!?   

Sailor's are SOOO skeptical..


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

First, the patent on the Kitty Hawk is long expired...so that's not a problem. *Who's being skeptical? *Wing sails like that monstrosity do add a lot more weight aloft-that is a statement of fact. They are not reefable-that is a statement of fact. That design is likely to have poor downwind performance because it does not have enough surface area-that's a statement of fact. That design does away with the jib and is likely to point worse than the traditionally rigged catamaran it is loosely based on-is an opinion, but more than likely a correct one.



fullkeel7 said:


> Well, I just hope they get some testing done on this thing before the descendants of Orville and Wilbur sue for a Kitty Hawk patent infringement. Looks like they may be missing a wing section and some tail assemblies.....Quick, someone check the museum!! But hey, it might work!?
> 
> Sailor's are SOOO skeptical..


----------



## ckgreenman (Aug 22, 2008)

Didn't the USA America's cup team play with (and discard) a Wing design a while back? I think this is one of those things that looks good on paper but in practice is less than optimal.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

For a match racing boat, it might be workable, especially with the amount of logistical support the AC teams have. For a cruising boat, it's dead in the water...a complete non-starter. Not being able to control the conditions you'll be out in, as the AC teams can to a point, and being without significant support resources, a wing sail is a death sentence. It will cause the boat a lot of problems when it gets caught by a storm.



ckgreenman said:


> Didn't the USA America's cup team play with (and discard) a Wing design a while back? I think this is one of those things that looks good on paper but in practice is less than optimal.


----------



## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

ckgreenman said:


> Didn't the USA America's cup team play with (and discard) a Wing design a while back? I think this is one of those things that looks good on paper but in practice is less than optimal.


In 1988, Dennis Connor successfully defended the America's Cup against KZ1 with a catamaran. He had two catamarans built, one with a solid-wing sail, which was reef-able by detonating explosive bolts that severed the top portion of the sail. I'm not positive, but I think in the end, they used the more traditional soft-sail version for the actual defense. But the wing-sail boat was said to be very fast.


----------



## ckgreenman (Aug 22, 2008)

JohnRPollard said:


> In 1988, Dennis Connor successfully defended the America's Cup against KZ1 with a catamaran. He had two catamarans built, one with a solid-wing sail, which was reef-able by detonating explosive bolts that severed the top portion of the sail.


OUCH! You definitely don't want to reef if you don't have to. LOL


----------



## fullkeel7 (Apr 16, 2008)

My previous post was tongue in cheek and I agree this cat looks more like a exercise in innovation, with what looks like a throw-back of a Wright brothers airfoil and tail feather control. But looking at it sure reminds me of a simple aircraft wing and flap control surface.

With the advent of light weight impregnated honeycomb flight surfaces used in commercial and military new generation aircraft, these airfoils are lighter and stronger than one might think. Still with numerous air, stress and motion sensors, weight aloft must be more than a concern. May be the reasoning behind the cat platform.

With all the weather, wind speed and directional inputs along with the instantaneous inputs and feed backs from all other sensors, I can see the possibility of a computer safely sailing a cat platform even in heavy weather without over stressing the rig. Aircraft use this method of "pinching" or control of flight very successfully with the same technology.

All that said, I would think this rig would be better suited to cruising. Well...even if racing...computer against computer???? When they take the "sailor" out of the sailing, what would be the point? 

Oh and BTW, the cost would probably be prohibitive not to mention butt ugly!


----------



## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Cats are fast boats... 
Had one pass me while I was working on San Diego Bay... Then it promptly capsized in front of me. I slowed down and maneuvered around him. Other small boats had gone to his assistance.


----------



## Brian42 (Jan 27, 2009)

Hmm .... interesting and, I agree butt ugly. However - wings could theoretically be as good for cruising as for racing.

With any sail you have to balance lift against drag. The big advantage of a wing is that it can have heaps less drag than a soft sail. For a cruiser, the key question would be does this rig have less drag than a heavily reefed soft sail or than a bare mast. I suspect you would be suprised by how low the drag on a good wing would be and it just well be feasible to just feather the wing in storm conditions. If (big if) this could be made to work, then you could have a very efficient and powerful rig that you could just switch off when the going got tough.

As for power and pointing - you can get as much as you want of each and more by simply having a high aspect rig. Low aspect rigs (necessary because of stability) lose most of their power over the tip which means you have to sail quite a way off the wind to generate enough lift to overcome the drag of the rig/wing. A glider wing will 'point' at only a degree or two because it is so long and you don't have the end losses. 

Now .... if you could combine a nice high aspect rig which could give you all the power you need up wind and down with the ability to depower progressively and ultimately have no more drag than a bare mast when fully 'off', then you have the ultimate labour saving rig.

Mind - you'd probably need a computer to control it quickly and responsively enough to stop whatever platform you had attached it to from falling upside down.

I don't reckon this particular example will be any better than conventional - but there's a lot of future potential in wings - ask any jet pilot!! Could be the way to go for commercial shipping ?????


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

of course, one problem with the design in the OP is that the mast probably has to be free-standing—with no stays or shrouds. This is much more difficult to do on a catamaran, where there really isn't a hull or keelson to attach the mast to. The loads mean that the bridgedeck has to be much heavier than it would be otherwise, and that contributes to a much higher center of gravity. IMHO, a wing mast setup like that would make far more sense on a large trimaran, where the mast could be stepped on the keelstrip of the main hull.


----------



## AllThumbs (Jul 12, 2008)

Computer generated models are nice, but like talk, they are cheap. I say build one and let's see how it performs, and put any speculation (which is also cheap) to rest.


----------



## mgmhead (Jan 14, 2007)

"Perfect Catamaran" = O-X-Y-M-O-R-O-N


----------



## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

I posted a pic of one of these winged cat here on SN over a year ago, the guy was end tied at the end of our dock.

The idea is nothing new ( according to the owner ) though there was only a couple on the water at the time. I think the guy had computer issues and as far as the weight goes, I think he said the weight was less than a std sail would have been.


----------



## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

opps, I lied, it's a tri


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Damn that's an ugly rig...


----------



## ckgreenman (Aug 22, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> Damn that's an ugly rig...


I know. It's got way to many hulls


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

Wingsail Here
I found another wing project, take a look

I guess I can`t link you to this site .. try * harryproa**. * 
*com/ gallery.htm* ............then click on "proposed 18/12m with wing sail", then "external view". The other quick time views are also worth a look.
it is also "fly by wire", but as he does not trust electronics (he works with them on a daily basis) the wire is reliable, easily repalced Teleflex Morse push-pull wire.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

You bastage... I said it was an ugly RIG, not an ugly boat.


ckgreenman said:


> I know. It's got way to many hulls


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonenil 
To all posters,

I am very sorry for not reading the rules.
I am the developer of "Omer wing sail" and I run a company under the that name.

Ilan Gonen 

gonenil, sorry you got BLASTED, So did I when I started this THREAD maybe a BAD IDEA 
But all I wanted was for the wing people, designer, sailors, nasayers, anyone who might have an Idea or thought to put it here 

most................. I am sure do not know who you are .......................now they do
.........................here are a few more sites......... for US all to look at 

all of them have www 
solarsailor.com
harryproa.com/gallery.
harborwingtech.com
wingsails.com



I hope it posts

now these cat builders F.P., Morrings,Leopard,Cantaina .......... and I will go out on a big long spin pole and say that
all of these cat builders could Retro with anyone of these wings

That is what a thread is about IDEAS, THOUGHTS

this was on Wingsail ......... by:gonenil he is the owner of Omer wings sail (Soft)


----------



## ckgreenman (Aug 22, 2008)

sailingdog said:


> You bastage... I said it was an ugly RIG, not an ugly boat.


Hehehe. I'm just messin' with ya.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I figured as much...since you're a poor boatless bastage with nothing better to do...  


ckgreenman said:


> Hehehe. I'm just messin' with ya.


----------



## ckgreenman (Aug 22, 2008)

Ya, I can't bag on my own boat so I gotta bag on others.


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

SS in mexico and they never take down the wing


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

*winged cats*

thought you might want see more pictures
well the next post


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

*photos*

ok here are some photos


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

*answers*

from Lanikaisailor.................. @ Sailing Anarchy talking about wings, I thought you all should read

I am a newbie and don't usually post but thought that someone that has sailed on Harborwing's "HWT-X1" could add something to the mix. I have been able to help Mark and his team as a safety consultant on many of their tests over the last two years. I am not a rocket scientist but have got to drink cocktails with the two doctors of Aerospace engineering that have worked on the boat. From what I gathered, the wing on HWT-X1 has less drag than a round object or mast 1/10th the size. http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~elkaim/Documents/...kaim_config.pdf 
The boat has sat out at the dock in many local storms here in Hawaii and done fine. This is dirty gust over 45knots.

Let me first start out by explaining that HWT-X1 is a proof of concept prototype and not meant to show everything that can be done with the technologie. She is a Stiletto 27 extended to 30' with the stock 14' beam. She has a 36' wing that is way too powerful for her needs (David Hubbard is a racer) if you watch closely in the video on Harbor Wing Technologies - Autonomous Unmanned Surface Vessel - AUSV you will see that the top four panels don't even have film on them. She is full of batteries, motors and computers and weighs over 4000lbs (she is a crude prototype, sorry Mark). The boat can still fly a hull. She can sail comfortably up wind at 25degrees of true, feathers at 20 and stalls at above 19.

This boat can sail by itself! It is totally autonomous and shows that the technology is viable. Is it the correct platform for offshore cruising? No, but she has sailed in over 6'-8' seas with winds up to 42knots apparent and lived to tell about it. I was there watching, and yelling at the engineers to shut if off before it could flip (this was before the computers knew to turn down the thrust in certain conditions and before the load cells where installed.)
On another test, this boats computer system compensated in a strong gusts and adjusted trim so as not to flip a half of a second before the observing sailor on board hit the chicken switch. 
Has there ever been another time that a computer has saved a multihull from flipping?
For that matter is there another boat that can tack, jibe, sail backwards, reef, while holding a perfect course without any people involved?
This is a real program with real sailors behind it. Stan Honey still has the speed record with the boat of 13.4knts close reaching.

Everyone asks about hurricanes, and there is some mention of taking one of these into the southern ocean. My opinion is that you could design a G class multi with wings that could handle the task, but most sailors don't try to go there. Would you take a Moorings 42 down there? Could a wing boat with these technologies survive a hurricane, I think maybe. Not all boats out there now do.

Bottom line is that the wing is easy to use and self trims so that you can concentrate on driving the direction that you want to and not have to worry about the sail trim. This has been hard for sailors to grasp; the direction of travel doesn't change trim. The wing is always maximized for the angle of attack or thrust desired. It is the fastest way to reef that there is. The wind speed comes up the angle of attack is trimmed down.

Aloha

I hope this answers some of the questions you might have had about wings on the Perfect Catamaran


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

*another winged cat*

this is big


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

QUOTE (Peter Johnstone @ Feb 4 2009, 08:12 PM) 
Coming back to cruising multis, a bi-plane rig or ketch rig with freestanding wings would really interest me. Having spent a year or two out there just sailing, and many many passages, I really prefer the KISS approach. Things have to be bomb-proof out there. The Harbor wing sail would remove the risk for multi newcomers on a highly powered up platform, so I see real possibilites for its appeal. For me, I think I would want to avoid all things electronic or computer based. If you guys were to do a wing on a crusing multi, what would the surface be fabricated out of to be reliable and to withstand UV? Tedlar?


I think the concept of either building a purpose built cruising cat, or properly retro-fitting an FP, Lagoon, or Leopard with a wing. I think this could make a lot of sense for the charter market. 

By interfacing the wing controls with the electronics and GPS, you could automate all of the Sailing "Work" and allow the people to focus on the more important things that go on on cruising cats.. !!

The idea of dialing in the software to optimize the wing for the conditions would be cool. You could also set it up so that the initial polars and targets could be updated by the accumulated data so that it could "learn" from the actual performance data.

It could also tap into the power boat market by removing some of the bariers keeping the power boat people out of the sailing market.

Think about it. A newbie can simply jump onto the boat, initiate a pre-programmed "Flight-Plan" and as soon as thet are free of the dock, they could just hit the "Easy" button and fire up the blender. 

Assuming the windage in "Vane" mode is less than a conventional rig, this could prove almost idiot-proof.

Add some electric sail drives running off lithium polymer batteries charged up by those groovy solar panels on the winds and on top of the dodger and now you've got something really cool.

Throw all of that on one of Peter's Gunboats, and you just might have something that would get even my attention.. fast idot


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

here is a wing sail sailing
does anyone else have a link or story about what makes a great Cat

Harbor Wing Technologies - Autonomous Unmanned Surface Vessel - AUSV


----------



## BigCat69 (Mar 28, 2008)

I saw online a blog in which someone in New Zealand saw a trimaran that either was or was very similar to a Walker Wing Sail. It had sailed there from the Netherlands, so maybe it is true that the sail will look after itself in a storm when set to point into the wind. I don't think it would have to be computerized-I think you could set up a fairly simple arrangement with a toothed belt and pulleys, and crank the control from near the mast to change the sail's attitude towards the wind. IMHO Morse / Teleflex cables are too flimsy to trust.

My own take on this is a soft wingsail with a large area that is balanced and reefable. It's in a catamaran with a biplane configuration. You can see my version at 65 Foot Sailing Catamaran Design by Tim Dunn . It isn't patented. We discuss this concept from time to time at junkrig : A forum to discuss the design, building . A French sailor named Bertrand Fercot has a design very similar to my design, and he has been tweaking it. He posts from time to time on the Yahoo junk rig group, and has some photos posted at: Junk Rigged - Wharram Builders and Friends

I'd say the main problem with the solid wing sails is lack of sail area for running. I certainly don't want to fool with a down wind kite.


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

*Hard Vs Soft*

well we can see there are a lot of soft wing sail to choose from

here are a few Proven Hard wings that do work

Harbor Wing is the only one that is computer controled with manual back up systems ( think of it like an Airplane they use the same Tech.) and there wing does not go bast the Beam of the boat

Walker wing........ work well and the are still sailing around the globe the boat was just two heavy

Dalhberg wing .............hey take your hats off to that guy he did


----------



## BigCat69 (Mar 28, 2008)

*Wingsails - Here's a proven one*



wingsail said:


> well we can see there are a lot of soft wing sail to choose from here are a few Proven Hard wings that do work
> 
> Harbor Wing is the only one that is computer controled with manual back up systems ( think of it like an Airplane they use the same Tech.) and there wing does not go bast the Beam of the boat
> 
> ...


 The Harbor Wing and Walker Wing boats actually exist. The Dalhberg is a photoshopped concept rather than an existing boat. The Walker Wing concept has been tested on a cruise across the Atlantic.

Here's a link to the Dutch WingSail rigged trimaran that sailed to New Zealand: SetSail.com - the serious cruising sailor's website

"The wings, a main wing and its trim tab, are very light skin structures made of carbon fibre with no internal masts. They are mounted onto a balanced hollow boom that pivots freely over the cabin roof on a large bearing base. The wing load is controlled strictly by adjusting the angle of the trim tab in relation to the angle of the main wing. When the angle is nil, the entire unit just feathers into the wind, offering little resistance - and it is free to rotate 360 degrees. "

"We were told that she sails well and fast. Only the two bigger ketches in their little fleet could outsail it, and that on broad reaches where they could fly big spinnakers in lighter air. " - I think the only way you could go fast downwind with the small area shown would be to tack downwind. In confined waters or in waters where the winds are shifty, that would be pretty annoying.



> http://www.setsail.com/s_logs/deridder/images/DutchWing.jpg
> 
> Tim Dunn, 65 Foot Sailing Catamaran Design by Tim Dunn


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

*world regattas story*

*Cats with Wings

* _- Moving beyond Fantasy and Drawing Boards_

2009-01-20 Released

Are you one who likes to have the latest and greatest in fashion, gear and technology? Are your homes, offices and yachts spacious, sleek and smart? Do you like your privacy yet every once and a while what to throw open the doors and entertain? 
Guess what? Harbor Wing Technologies, in collaboration with some of yachting's most forward-thinking engineers, programmers and naval architects, is introducing one of the most stable, largest, greenest and user-friendly crafts afloat. Moving beyond the novel design and technology of the Maltese Falcon and its Falcon Rig of self-standing and rotating masts, Harbor Wing Technologies and Morrelli & Melvin are working on the plans for a range of WingSail® catamarans. All involved hope to see the 120 and 170-footers, currently on the drawing boards, by 2011. Equipped with Harbor Wing Technology's Wing Sail, not only will they be large enough to host trade shows, they will be a showstoppers.
Spun from a way to efficiently and cost effectively patrol the Hawaiian National Marine Sanctuary, the collaboration's solution can be applied to fleets of surveillance vessels, commercial delivery craft and the recreational market. The Wing Cat integrates breakthrough technologies in WingSail, hull, hydrofoil, data transmission, navigation and computer programming. A friendly user interface enables private yacht owners and crew to take advantage of technologies that otherwise would have been available only to the military. For the first time, a spacious, stable multihull with no rigging on deck, fewer crew, less crew fatigue and a whole lot more is available.
Just as on a powerboat, only one person is needed to take the helm, read instruments and steer a course on these winged cats. The computer programming takes the mystery out of trimming sails. No human interface is needed to constantly trim the sails. The WingSail's computer's load cells, anemometers and Internal Navigation Unit, "INU" inputs provide precise control and robotic responses that automatically depower the wing when wind velocity and sea conditions exceed the owner's, captain's and guests' comfort levels, so if you don't want to heel or fly a hull, you won't. Additionally, Harbor Wing Technologies has developed a triple-redundant fully-maranized computer system similar to those used on commercial airliners of NASA space probes enabling the yacht's systems to weather rouge waves and unexpected storm systems.
The ideal platform for the computer-controlled wing with tails that can be manually operated is a catamaran or a trimaran; providing stability, speed and space. The hulls, the salon and aft cockpit with its cabin top suitable for entertaining sightseers, sunbathers or really active guests, are spacious, regardless of where you are in the range. The plans for the hull of the 170-foot catamaran show two garages with workshop space and plenty of room to store 18-foot RIB's; captain's quarters with walk-in closets and en suite heads; crew lounges and cabins; laundry and six 200-square foot plus state rooms with private stairwells.
It comes as no surprise that this winged catamaran package is being considered by at least one group as a platform to host VIP and tradeshow events. "Whether at a dock or moving at 20-30 knots from port to port under wing power, this 170-foot winged catamaran packs pleasure, performance, utility and green technology into a vessel that can roam the ocean's, moor off of St. Tropez or dock at Palm Island," says Morrelli & Melvin's Pete Melvin.
For more information on these developments, please visit Harbor Wing Technologies - Autonomous Unmanned Surface Vessel - AUSV and Morrelli & Melvin Design & Engineering, Inc..


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

WINGS of all types
This guy who emailed me is great
has done Wing testing for Land,Sea, Ice

Just wanted to share it with you
Tom Speer - Home -

I am NOW convenced that this WING thing might be the way to go


----------



## BigCat69 (Mar 28, 2008)

*Tom Speer and WingSails*

I have been getting inspiration from Mr. Speer for years. The issue of how to control a wing might be problematic from a seaworthiness standpoint. I certainly don't want to require the use of servomotors and electricity to control a sail that can't even be reefed or furled- that could be fatal in a storm. A flap could be controlled by a sheet, especially a sheet that attaches to multiple points on the aft end of the flap - in the same way that a junk sail can be controlled. This is something that could be low tech and seaworthy.

See this wingsail design at: http://bigcatcatamarans.com/WINGCATY.jpg


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

*bring em back*

I would like to see this sail today

does anyone know`s where it is


----------



## BigCat69 (Mar 28, 2008)

*Photoshopped?*



wingsail said:


> I would like to see this sail today
> 
> does anyone know`s where it is


 Is that photoshopped? Every photo I have ever seen of Team Phillips had a wingmast / wishbone soft sail biplane rig.


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

here is another winged cat
going for speed


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

wingsail said:


> here is another winged cat
> going for speed


Last I heard that one had shredded itself.


----------



## mrwuffles (Sep 9, 2008)

Thats what I look for in a boat!!!


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

hey take a look at this
just found it
on Engadget
wait till Engineering TV loads it up and it is a 2 part video
This will answer a lot of Questions

Harbor Wing AUSV can sail into the sunset all by itself - Engadget


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

*Questions answered*

Take a look at Harbor Wings website they have added a sections on Frequently Asked QUESTIONS

this should answer most of the questions we all have had on Wing Sails

Harbor Wing Technologies - Autonomous Unmanned Surface Vessel - AUSV

Here are there Questions

What is new here? Hasn't this been done before? 
What happens when the boat is docked or moored in heavy wind? 
How do you reef the WingSail? 
What makes the WingSail turn? 
What controls the WingSail angle of attack? 
How do you trim the WingSail for varying top to bottom wind conditions? 
There are no stays. How does the WingSail keep from breaking off in rough seas? 
How well does the WingSail perform up and down wind? 
How would you pilot a recreational catamaran with the WingSail system? 
What happens if power or a computer fails? 
Can WingSails be applied to Monohulls? 
What other applications are there for the Harbor Wing system?


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*History buffs, I don't think a c-class cat has won with a cloth sail since the 70s*



wingsail said:


> SS in mexico and they never take down the wing


The "Little Americas Cup" is one of the higher tech races around, is where the Stars and Stripes technology matured and field tested, and no one has shown up with cloth in a LONG time.

That said, not for cruising.

For example, the c-class boats have a sail area limitation, so they don't consider reefing or sail option. Only the maximum power per area. But their speed and pointing in light to medium air is shocking.

Team Invictus - C Class Catamaran for competing in the Little America's Cup

Scuttlebutt Photos: Cogito - the American Defender for the Little America's Cup


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

*wing sail news*

News from World Regattas about WINGSAILS see link

Welcome to World Regattas - Sailing and Regatta Event Schedules and Information


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

*wing VS cloth*

Now we know a Wing Sail can out Sail a Cloth Sail and perform better so

for all those sailors that would want a cruising wing go here

Harbor Wing Technologies - Autonomous Unmanned Surface Vessel - AUSV

This company has been into Wings Sail for years


----------



## mgmhead (Jan 14, 2007)

Apparently the 'perfect' catamaran is BMW Oracle...


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Umm... you are aware that BMW Oracle 90 is a TRIMARAN... not a catamaran... three hulls, not two. 



mgmhead said:


> Apparently the 'perfect' catamaran is BMW Oracle...


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

*winged racing cat*

*the new iacc? *
Evolution. It's what AC33 was all about. Many felt design would be the difference. In the end it was. Of course, I wanted USA 17 to win for more reasons than the name. The absolute only reason I wanted Alinghi to hold onto the Cup was for multihulls to progress. Marstrom, Morelli & Melvin and Tornado Sport came up with a concept as the basis of design for the next battle if history was written the other way. Göran Marstrom hung out with us during Cocktail Hour. Tornado Sport is the creator of the extremely successful Extreme 40, and now the Extreme 90. Morelli & Melvin needs no introduction. When these three giants of multihulls get together we should pay attention. This shows wings are the accepted norm in multihulls for the future. The designers and engineers of the BMW/Oracle wing told me if they designed another wing, it would smoke their current design. And the wing weighed less than Alinghi's rig! I'll have more inside action real soon. John Casey.


----------



## mgmhead (Jan 14, 2007)

*Busted*



sailingdog said:


> Umm... you are aware that BMW Oracle 90 is a TRIMARAN... not a catamaran... three hulls, not two.


Grrrrr... You're right - I'm wrong. Seems the older I get the less aware I am of details. Of course three hulls is a trimaran, not a catamaran. They're both multi-hulls but BMW Oracle is indeed the best TRIMARAN. A thousand apologies.


----------



## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

There's a whole lot of difference in sailing a wing on a chosen day, and it being our near future. I don't think many here are buying multi million dollar boats for day sails. How the hell do you stow, and reef that monstrosity once you're back at the dock?.:laugher . Don't get me wrong I love the technology coming out of AC, but I don't see it coming to my neighborhood anytime soon? ........*i2f*


----------



## WanderingStar (Nov 12, 2008)

I read an article about it. Apparently the wingsail stays up all the time, free rotating at the dock. It is claimed to have less windage and weight than a standard rig. It is also only practical for multihulls, as it needs beam to rotate.


----------



## wingsail (Jan 30, 2009)

*wings & wings and all types of wings*

take a look at this blog about any and all types of wings

maybe your questions will be answered

Fixed Wing Sail - Sailing Anarchy Forums


----------



## blackjenner (Feb 5, 2010)

Not that I'm a luddite but, plain old rags are simple, work pretty well, are easy to handle, are very flexible, etc, for a wide majority of sailing applications. 

Sail by wire for most cruising and day sailers?

I guess.

So I need electricity now to get free wind power...


----------

