# How much water does your engine pump



## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Often the advice is offered to put a Y-valve in your engine's raw water intake hose so that you can use it as an emergency bilge pump. I used to scoff at this idea, thinking that my engine didn't pump all that much water with it's periodic exhaust puking. Once, when I started my 20hp Yanmar on the hard, and fed the raw water from a 5 gallon bucket I was amazed at how quickly it emptied the bucket. 

Anyone done any testing, formal or informal, on how much water and engine would move as a bilge pump? 

MedSailor


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

One of my trucks water pumps moves 135-150 gals a hour! altho it might be a minute........... if a minute, great, if not........not so great a minute makes more sense. BUT, you have to remember, a truck engine is using 2" hoses, where as the pump on the boat at least in my case, a 1" line at best, so potentially 1/4 of that amount...

Depending upon how fast water is coming in, the engine may help, or one might need a bigger pump yet!

marty


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## HUGOSALT (Jun 15, 2004)

Fairly certain that my Yanmar 3GM 22.5 hp should output
4 gal per minute @1,000 rpm's and 8 gal per minute @2000 rpm's
Last summer after flushing motor with Rydlyme I timed out put
into bucket at 3 plus @1000 and 5 plus @ 2000.
Did not measure at higher rpms.
Have installed Y valve for easy winterizing/flushing and 
carry a hose with strainer/filter on end that reaches into bilge (available from garden or hardware store) just in case. 
Being able to move additional 3-400 gallons an hour can't be bad.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

We have done this as an emergency way of dewatering theb oat as well as for easy winterizing. Simple as installing a three way valve from the water intake thru hull to the engine and a thredded fitting on the end of a 25 foot hose.

In addition we have done the same to the diaphram pump which serves as the shower pump in our head. We put a three way valve in it with a couled hose of 20 feet. Sits in cubburd under the sink in the head coiled with plastic ties in case of emergency


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

My Universal 25XP easily pulls a couple gallons a minute at idle. In an emergency situation, rev that engine up and you're pumping a lot of water, maybe enough to stay ahead of a possible sinking.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

I'm starting to suspect that my suspicions ARE founded, that the engine pump doesn't move enough water to make much of a difference.

I was able to find out exactly which pump is on my Perkins 4-108 and it turn out it's an ITT Jabsco 3270-0001. I also learned this little chunk of bronze costs $400  (I'm also very happy that my boat came with a spare!)

Here is the pump and it's specs from this website:
Jabsco 3270-0001 Engine Cooling Pump - Perkins 4-107 & 4-108 - Engine Driven Pumps - Pumps - Downwind Marine









_Bronze Flange Mount Engine Cooling Pump

Constructed from marine quality bronze and stainless steel for ruggedness and reliability.

Flow Rate: Nominal 8.9 gallons (40L)/min at 1500 rpm
Self-priming from dry up to 7.8-feet (2.4 m)_

I couldn't find a flow rate chart for other RPMS and in theory I can run my engine at 3000RPM continuous but I don't even know if the output curve is linear or exponential. It would have to be a seriously exponential curve for this pump to make a meaningful difference at 3000RPM. Odds are it's a linear curve and that means 18GPM minus restrictions for head or about 1000GPH open-flow at 3000RPM. It's likely though that those 3/4" hoses would create a lot of head restriction, (not to mention running the output through the heat exchanger and the exhaust riser and muffler) significantly reducing the real flow rate when compared to an electric pump with a 1 1/4" or 1.5" smooth walled discharge hose.

Compare that with even a modest electric bilge pump and I think the bilge pump wins. In fact the bilge pump rated for 1000GPH would likely cost nearly the same as the engine fittings and hoses that you would need to set this up. You also run the risk, using your engine as a bilge pump, of running it dry and then you have no engine for propulsion or to keep your batteries charged and thus keep up with the electrical demands of the other pumps.

MedSailor


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

medsailor,
The point of this thread is using the engine water pump in emergency only situations. In all my many years of boating, I've never been in a situation like that, but it's nice to know I have a back up bilge pump I can use that will pump an extra 5-8 gallons a minute if needed. Yes, there are risks involved but I can work with them to minimize.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Judging by the speed at which my motor draws anti-freeze, I would say it does about 4 or 5 gallons per minute. Thats 250-300 gallons per hour, which is a pretty slow bilge pump.

I would substantially prefer an engine driven pump accessory. For serious emergency dewatering, I would want several thousand gallons per hour.


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## Navigator Wannabe (Nov 4, 2012)

Worst idea EVER.

The experts have now established that an engine cooling water pump has approximately the same flow rate as a man peeing.

But routing the bilge water through the tiny impeller pump is a surefire way of killing, or at least blocking it, if you are really taking on water and stuff is floating around.
In such a situation, you might need your engine, either to get somewhere, or to make sure there is as much power as your electric bilge pumps might ever want.

If someone absolutely WANTS to be paranoid about sufficient pumping capacity: gas engine driven pumps are available, starting at 1,500 gph and $150. 
Just google "engine driven water pump".

So, again, WORST IDEA EVER.

If you think an extra tiny pump (like the engine water pump) would help, buy a Rule for $10.
If you think you need a real pump, buy an engine driven one.
But for gods sake, keep your fingers off, and any debris away from the engine water pump! 



MedSailor said:


> Often the advice is offered to put a Y-valve in your engine's raw water intake hose so that you can use it as an emergency bilge pump. I used to scoff at this idea, thinking that my engine didn't pump all that much water with it's periodic exhaust puking. Once, when I started my 20hp Yanmar on the hard, and fed the raw water from a 5 gallon bucket I was amazed at how quickly it emptied the bucket.
> 
> Anyone done any testing, formal or informal, on how much water and engine would move as a bilge pump?
> 
> MedSailor


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Navigator Wannabe said:


> Worst idea EVER.
> 
> The experts have now established that an engine cooling water pump has approximately the same flow rate as a man peeing.
> 
> ...


DUHHHH no one said it is the primary dewatering device on the boat just
another potetial help
DUHHHH of course you have a screen inline or at the end of any pump as 
there may be debris in the water
DUHHHH no kindding the rule pumps at 2000 gallons/ hr and your engine 
may only be 600 galllons per hour ( hardly a man peeing)

No one said this is the best case scenario, it obviously isnt just that it is an emergency possibility, therefore for it doesnt classify as the worst idea ever.

No one would try this unless you were down to your last worst case scenario, but it is better than standing there with your d//k in your hands when all you other smug systems and ideas have failed because your batteries failed or electrical system has shorted out.

Many of us already have a set up for winterizing using this concept already.

The worst idea ever is the man who doesnt prepare for any emergencies or doesnt utilize what you have available already.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I have no objection to the T in the engine seawater intake, but I'm not sure I see a likely scenario where it would do the trick. Surely, better than standing there with your d//k in your hand (which is the strangest expression for being without options in an emergency  ) 

First, your primary and secondary electric pumps need to be overwhelmed or failed. Given the failure rate of electric pumps, you must have two! Then the flow would have to be pretty slow for the engine seawater pump to have enough capacity to help. I'm thinking, if you need the engine, you must have overwhelmed at least one electric pump and probably have a gusher.

IIRC, a 3/4" hole (common hose size) will allow something like 1,500 to 2,000 gallons per hour to enter, depending on how far below the waterline it is. Imagine the size pump one would need if they actually hit something and knocked a real hole in the boat. A gas powered emergency dewatering pump, like the ones the USCG might use to keep the boat above the surface, can pump 10,000 - 20,000 gph. I want that......


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Navigator Wannabe said:


> Worst idea EVER.


Part of what makes it a candidate for the above title is that this advice is offered in almost all the "how-to" cruising books AS a good options for a catastrophic pump. The fallacy here is that one might waste the time and money installing the fittings and "think" that they have a big de-watering pump when they actually don't. It would be better to have nothing and KNOW that you have nothing than to think you've got an ace in the hole when you don't. 9GPH *(typo correction I intended to say 9 GPM)*at 1500rpm. I'm pretty sure a paraplegic with a bucket could do quite a bit better than that.

On the other hand.... One of these puppies:








23,000GPH oh yeah!

Back when I had my wooden boat with the cracked hull I was seriously considering getting a gas powered trash pump. Luckily for me the siren's spell of wooden boats wore off and I bought a different boat instead.

If you didn't want the hassle of maintaining another small gas engine, you could run one of these puppies through an inverter to supply it with 110V power. 16,800GPH. Costs about a grand. Would make a good fire-fighting apparatus as well...









If you're a mechanical purist, these engine driven pumps with electro-magnetic clutches are nice also. This one is about a grand and pumps 3720GPH at 1750RPM. Not a lot for the money IMHO.









I kind of like the 110v electric one myself but I've got better things to spend a grand on. You can buy a lot of soft wood plugs for a grand....

MedSailor


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

THis issue with ANY pump, is the size of the pipe, and to a degree the rise of the water to empty it. This is not a hard number to figure out, One does it all the time when and if one installs water features in yards, sprinkler systems, be them yard/garden or fire in nature.....

Of course the pump piston etc also makes a difference, as does the HP of the pump.....

reality is, not sure my little pump on my 16hp yanmar would make a big difference. Those pumps Med shows.....oh yeah baby! is the kool-aid man breaking thru a wall right now?!?!?!

Reality is, as noted. I would not depend on a motor cooling pump, and best to have a some what hazard of a swag how much water you want to remove at once with a pump, otherwise, you will be on the losing end. I have a strange feeling, for a larger hole, my 500 gph dc pump will lose the battle BIG TIME! 500 a minute might stay ahead of some leaks, others still behind. But that would take a 3-4" hose size to do.

Marty


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

MedSailor said:


> Part of what makes it a candidate for the above title is that this advice is offered in almost all the "how-to" cruising books AS a good options for a catastrophic pump. The fallacy here is that one might waste the time and money installing the fittings and "think" that they have a big de-watering pump when they actually don't. It would be better to have nothing and KNOW that you have nothing than to think you've got an ace in the hole when you don't. 9GPH at 1500rpm. I'm pretty sure a paraplegic with a bucket could do quite a bit better than that.
> 
> On the other hand.... One of these puppies:
> 
> ...





> The fallacy here is that one might waste the time and money installing the fittings and "think" that they have a big de-watering pump when they actually don't. It would be better to have nothing and KNOW that you have nothing than to think you've got an ace in the hole when you don't. 9GPH at 1500rpm. I'm pretty sure a paraplegic with a bucket could do quite a bit better than that.


Oh my if we only used our heads and brains and even common sense. Really only 9 gallons per hour through your raw water muffler on your engine. Really

You are right if the true figure was 9 gallons per hour but its not so save your witticisms. *It's 4-9 gallons per minute. *Any one who has done this on their boat already knows your figure is wrong. Thats 240 gallons - 540 gallons per hour. Not a huge amount, but not an amount you could ever bail out and I doubt you are disabled.

As far as tough installation, it requires 1 simple three way valve . Most people even you can accomplish that I am sure. Also many people who winterized do this as it makes it a simple 5 minute operation.

As previously stated many of us have a similar set up already as we winterized our boats every winter. So really its utilizing the resources you have. On my boat this is my fourth option and would require a catastrophic situation. First two options are boat battery powered bilge pumps. Third option is. Boat battery power diaphragm pump for shower with hose and same three way valve . This option however is in play if the batteries are shorted, electrical panel doesn't work and is compromised

Instead of sarcastically pooh poohing the idea, look at it as a utilization of your resources in case of emergency. I'll bet it will pump more ware out than someone manning the manual gusher pump. Not the ideal way, but in a pinch every bit helps.


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

In addition to the choice you make, you mentioned you're happy you have a spare pump.

What you should learn to do is change the seals on the pump, which is what often fails, reportedly about 500 hours, I've had better experience of double that. The pumps don't fail, the seals do.

Maine Sail has a Johnson pump seal rebuild on his site, here's my Oberdorfer: Mysteries of the Oberdorfer - Seal Replacement - REBUILDING A PUMP w/Flix There's a link to Maine Sail's stuff within this article.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

At this point in the thread it is obligatory to mention that one of these super powerful pumps could easily drive a fire hose for repelling pirates.


It's 1:30 in the morning so I'm sure I'm dreaming that I posted this.
Just so the moderators know we appreciate their service.


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

Chef2sail, Totally agree.
Yes, that engine pump may only pump 500-600 gallons an hour (pretty low) but maybe enough to get you back before your engine is under water and not working at all.


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## Navigator Wannabe (Nov 4, 2012)

chef2sail said:


> ....
> *It's 4-9 gallons per minute. *Any one who has done this on their boat already knows your figure is wrong. Thats 240 gallons - 540 gallons per hour. Not a huge amount, but not an amount you could ever bail out and I doubt you are disabled.


That's two to four buckets minute. 15 to 30 seconds per bucket.
I am sure you can do that. Especially if you are taking on water. 

Plus, these numbers seem way too high anyways. At least judging by the tiny water passages my 3 cylinder Yanmar had. What counts here are the water passages you see when replacing the impeller, not the diameter of the raw water hose that leads to the engine.



chef2sail said:


> ...
> As previously stated many of us have a similar set up already as we winterized our boats every winter.


Yes, but the winterizers don't try to suck bilge dirt into the pump and heat exchanger, but clean water with antifreeze, if I understand that process correctly. 

And even if some bilge dirt would clog the screen they might have on their intake hose, they would just say 'oops' and remove it.

You, with your boat taking on water in your hypothetical "catastrophic situation" would be totally screwed, because you would burn out your engine before you know it. 
Because you would be busy steering, or looking for the leak, or whatever. But busy.

So yes, I keep pooh poohing the idea, because it is a pooh pooh idea.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I am starting to reconsider the engine mounted backup, in favor of a 110v pump that requires the genset to run. That may be even better!! The real question is where would one put the pickup and how to accommodate a two inch discharge hose. I wondering if I would just roll up the discharge hose in the bilge and grab it in the event of a serious emergency and run it out the companionway and over the side. Sort of the way the USCG emergency pump would be set up. 

The couple of design issues are:

1. Where does the pump go, because it could not be submerged.

2. Must keep the genset locker dry or no power.


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> I am starting to reconsider the engine mounted backup, in favor of a 110v pump that requires the genset to run. That may be even better!!.


Totally agree...A 110v pump running off a genset is a great way to go.
However, I'm guessing the vast number of Sailnetters (over 95%) do not have gensets.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

chuck53 said:


> Totally agree...A 110v pump running off a genset is a great way to go.
> However, I'm guessing the vast number of Sailnetters (over 95%) do not have gensets.


Really? How do they run their ice makers and central vac?


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Oh my if we only used our heads and brains and even common sense. Really only 9 gallons per hour through your raw water muffler on your engine. Really
> 
> You are right if the true figure was 9 gallons per hour but its not so save your witticisms. *It's 4-9 gallons per minute. *Any one who has done this on their boat already knows your figure is wrong. Thats 240 gallons - 540 gallons per hour. Not a huge amount, but not an amount you could ever bail out and I doubt you are disabled.


Chef I just took you off my ignore list a couple days ago. Not sure that was a good idea....

Thank you for pointing out my typo. I'll correct it above. Please give me some credit though Dave 9GP/HOUR is not realistic, it IS 9GPM, (which, to borrow your language) if you used your head, you would have read that in my post on the first page of this thread where I posed the specs on my Jabsco engine pump from their website and broke down the GPM and GPH in more detail.

I did convert it GPH (again on the first page) and doubled the 1500 RPM rating making the max for the pump (without head restrictions) at 1000GPH, which still isn't impressive. Comparing apples to apples, ie with no head, that's the same as a 1000GPH rule pump which is a modest size pump. I'm repeating myself here, so I recommend you read the first page of the thread.

Finally, why don't you think I could bail 500GPH? 5 gallon bucket. 100 dumps from said bucket, or a little more for sloshing. 60 minutes in an hour. Don't think I/you/anybody could do two buckets in 60 seconds? Really?

MedSalor


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Most people *even you* can accomplish that I am sure.


Chef, what is this?

MedSailor


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

MedSailor said:


> Chef I just took you off my ignore list a couple days ago. Not sure that was a good idea....
> 
> Thank you for pointing out my typo. I'll correct it above. Please give me some credit though Dave 9GP/HOUR is not realistic, it IS 9GPM, (which, to borrow your language) if you used your head, you would have read that in my post on the first page of this thread where I posed the specs on my Jabsco engine pump from their website and broke down the GPM and GPH in more detail.
> 
> ...


I am sure you can do that. Bail 5 gallon buckets for 2 or three hours straight and do nothing else. Is that the best use of your time in this level of emergency? I would think you could put the just put the intake hose in the water and try and stop the leak or prepare to go off the boat. The other way you are stuck just baling. You can make the choice of bucket bailing like Wile E Coyote or using what you have as a mechanical advantage already and trying to repair the leak

Remember I am no way proposing this as a first line of defense or even second or third. Remember also I mentioned that a lot of us (people who dont sail in cold weather wouldnt do this) have a valve already installed in order to facillitate easy winterization of the raw water part our engines. It is called utilization of our resources, which most sailors need to do in an emergency and I was just presenting another option to give you some time to make a decision to keep you safe.

Now as far as correcting your previous quote. What you by correcting the original quote was make everything I posted after it look ridiculous as to why I posted it. In addition you added more dialogue. This is kind of disingenous although I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you didnt mean it that way as you appear to be a good guy. Anyone coming into this thread new now will wonder why I posted what I did. I would think the best soluition would be to correct your mistake ( we all make them) in a new post and move on from there.

We have had on Sailnet in the past where people have said multiple aggressive quotes and points at people...who after they were confronted went back and changed what they wrote which made them look like angels when they actually started a conflict. There was discussion about whether we should EVER be able to go back and alter what we wrote. Mainesail presented a persuasive argument that it allows him to add, and also update many of the "how to" stuff he has written on here and is advantagous to him to leave the threads able to be altered. Others have argued it allows people to change the tone and what they said originally, which could be corrected with another statement. The moderators have decided to leave it the way it is. In your case you could have just posted again to correct or add on to your original post and it would prevent the thread now from not making sense.

By what you have done I am contemplating whether I should now just go back and alter what I wrote as it makes no sense now. (And this can go on infinitum). I am sure if I do that it may look like your psots back to me have been done in a vacum.

Whether you put me on ignore or not is of no consequence to me. I find most of your posts to be valuable and informative and some them I have differing opinions of them and am not afraid to say when I do. I try not to be thin skinned and understand that interpretation of what others say on the internet may not truly reflect what they or how they are saying it. Its not always easy to do that, but I have been remnided many times that this is only the internet and not a personal attack ( usually) .

Congrats on the birth of your son BTW. You had me on ignore when he was born. No greater joy in life than our children.

Dave


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

MedSailor said:


> Chef, what is this?
> 
> MedSailor





> Part of what makes it a candidate for the above title is that this advice is offered in almost all the "how-to" cruising books AS a good options for a catastrophic pump. The fallacy here is that one might waste the time and money installing the fittings and "think" that they have a big de-watering pump when they actually don't. It would be better to have nothing and KNOW that you have nothing than to think you've got an ace in the hole when you don't. 9GPH (typo correction I intended to say 9 GPM)at 1500rpm. I'm pretty sure a paraplegic with a bucket could do quite a bit better than that.


It was in response to your somewhat condesending reply and supporting *THE WORST IDEA EVER *statement with ridulcling people ( me particularly as I have installed this) by calling what I did a "*waste of money and time*" and thinking they (I) are idiots that they have a "*big dewatering pump*" that a " *paraplegic with a bucket*" could do better than that. You dont think or give us credit that we know what I have with this device? Am I and others that big of an idiot? Clearly I said it was in extreme emergency. Last resort

Dont get all high and mighty when you elicit and contribute to the response with something you have said, your tone or your choice of verbiage. ( Can you look at yourself objectively here)

Maybe I should just go back and alter what I originally posted to elicit this response. That seems to be the new SOP here now


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Come on. Let's cut out the he said, she said. Put each other on ignore and rest in peace.

Back to the engine raw water pump. What happens if it actually does work and dries the bilge or keeps up enough to be slurping water, but doesn't draw enough to cool your engine. Won't that kill your motor?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Back to the engine raw water pump. What happens if it actually does work and dries the bilge or keeps up enough to be slurping water, but doesn't draw enough to cool your engine. Won't that kill your motor?


 It is the worst case scenerio and you have water on the floor hose inserted in the bilge. That volume should have no problem.

If the water level drops enough where there is not constant flow into the engine then 
Simple throw the lever back. .Our fitting is a three way balll valve...just throw the lever back to draw from the thru hull. . Hopeflly will never have to be used.


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

There's a big problem with the bucket method. Most of my boating friends, me included do have buckets on their boat, but it's usually a 2 gallon size, not 5 gallon. Not saying that having a 5 gallon bucket isn't a good idea...it is. Just commenting on what I see.
Even If I had a 5 gallon bucket, the water is going to have to be pretty deep, close to a foot, in order to fill up that bucket.
if I've got water coming in faster than my bilge pump can handle, I'm turning on my shower sump pump first. If that's not enough, then I go to my engine pump. Unless the water is really coming in so fast and furios, where nothing is going to keep me from sinking, I've done all this well before the water is deep enough to really utilize a bucket.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> It is the worst case scenerio and you have water on the floor hose inserted in the bilge. That volume should have no problem.
> 
> If the water level drops enough where there is not constant flow into the engine then
> Simple throw the lever back. .Our fitting is a three way balll valve...just throw the lever back to draw from the thru hull. . Hopeflly will never have to be used.


But aren't you out trying to stop the leak or man the helm? How would you just throw the lever?


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

Chef,

Thank you for your explanation. I certainly did not intend to offend you and I apologize if I did. Many of the words you referenced are not mine, but I did say "part of what makes it a candidate for (the worst idea...)". What I was/am trying to say is that the many expert books who recommend this idea often recommend it and give the impression that it's a huge de-watering pump. I feel like this is false advertising. I didn't think that those who have made their own decision to install one would be offended by my attacking the overselling of the premise. Again, if I offended, it was not my intent and I apologize.

By way of explanation I did feel directly attacked with the "even you", "save your witticisms" and "if we only used our heads". I accept your explanation though and I promise to try and not be so thin skinned in the future.

As for the editing, I actually did that with you in mind. I DID leave the typo exactly where it was, but put the correction in a way that would stand out, next to it. I wanted to make the correction as to not confuse newcomers to the thread but leave in mistake because it was discussed. I thought this would be the clearest way to do so. Besides, it's in your quote of mine, so there's little chance of you looking like you commenting on something that isn't there.

Back on to the discussion at hand:

I don't personally think the concept of a Y-valve is always a horrible idea. I think it's over-sold in the books and the dangers of putting your engine out of commission are glossed over and I think that you can spend your time and money on better options. On the other hand, someone who already has a Y-valve installed has already put in the time and money and so there is no downside there. The only downside faced now would be possibly running dry and burning up your impeller, or putting your heat exchanger out of commission. While it may be an easy throw of the lever to go back to the regular intake, you are likely to be busy doing other things and not notice that you've sucked a piece of floating debris over the bilge intake strainer and have run your impeller dry. Useful? Possibly. Dangerous? Possibly.

For the record I don't endorse buckets as a primary de-watering method either.  That comment, complete with witticism was designed to make a point. Buckets could have their place, but as a last resort to be sure.

For the modest de-watering that your engine pump offers, and the risks associated I still maintain that there are better options. You could, for example, put the same Y-valves in your fresh water pump and saltwater washdown pump. Each of these would be 3GPM or so on a small boat and the two combined would approximate the same de-watering capability as a 20HP engine's water pump would without the risk of putting the engine out of commission.

By my logic, here is a breakdown of the pros/cons:

Advantages of the engine driven Y-valve pump:
1: No matter how many pumps you have you can always add this one as an extra option.
2: No new through hulls needed
3: Bypasses "some" of the electrical system such as the distribution pannel, but if the electrics are all toast you probably can't start the engine to run this pump.
4: Easy to install and not prohibitively expensive.

 Engine Y-Valve Disadvantages:
1: You might temporarily put your engine out of commission when you need it most. You might run it dry, or suck debris into it. The impeller can be burned up and the heat enchanger clogged. 
2: If you haven't read this thread, or duly educated yourself, you might have a false sense of security thinking that this pump will do more than it can.
3: Engine has to be functional and running for this pump to operate.
4: You must throw a lever for it to be engaged and you should monitor the pump for clogging and running dry.

Advantages of adding one more comparable sized bilge pump and forgetting about the engine idea:
1: No risk to the engine. 
2: With proper wiring it should bypass the electrical panel. 
3: It can run (until the batteries die) without the help of the engine.
4: It can be made automated with a float switch.
5: It does not require monitoring.

Disadvantages of adding the extra bilge pump:
1: It requires another through hull above the waterline (unless you want to "T" it into a cockpit drain).
2: Requires at least a partially functional electrical system (batteries and direct wiring).

For my boat the cost of adding the Y valve and all associated hardware (hose barbs x2, hose, and plastic strainer) to make the engine pump an option is about $60.

For my boat the cost of adding another 1000GPH rule bilge pump with hose, wiring, through hull and a manual (non-float) switch is $65.

MedSailor


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

MedSailor said:


> Chef,
> 
> Thank you for your explanation. I certainly did not intend to offend you and I apologize if I did. Many of the words you referenced are not mine, but I did say "part of what makes it a candidate for (the worst idea...)". What I was/am trying to say is that the many expert books who recommend this idea often recommend it and give the impression that it's a huge de-watering pump. I feel like this is false advertising. I didn't think that those who have made their own decision to install one would be offended by my attacking the overselling of the premise. Again, if I offended, it was not my intent and I apologize.
> 
> ...


We really dont disagree then

As stated my first two options are Rule bildge pumps. Option three is my diapram pump in my head to evacuate the shower sump ( we have a T there now). I could do the freshwater pump as you said. My anchor wash is in the anchor compartment way to far away with no in boat way of getting at it.

Option 4 is the engine and yes there are risks associated with it as you and I have mentioned. It is the only option which is not dependent on power.

Recognize that all options are dependent on battery power being available *except *the engine option. If electrical failure/ batteries are dead, compromised or failed is the reason for the failure and non use of the bildge pumps, or any other pumps without the engine option you have no option except a bucket. I have been on boats where this has happened and this has actually caused some of the dewatering emergency. It is what inevitably convinced me to look for an option which was not dependent on power.

The vessel I was on was 2 days from land when the house electrical/ batteries shorted somewhere. We were not in danger and there was no inordinate amount of water getting into the bildge, but we had no power to run any of the onboard pumps and a small group 24 engine starting battery only. We were able to use the manual bilge pump for any water by we had discussed our options. This boat had a winterizing setup as I have discussed so we set up a process for dewatering which we never had to us utilzing the engine. I have the same on my boat as we have to winterize the raw water system side of the engine every winter and it is an easy efficient way of doing it.

It is the most important reason for the set up for me. It is really the last , line of defense and hopefully I will never have to use it.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> This boat had a winterizing setup as I have discussed so we set up a process for dewatering which we never had to us utilzing the engine.


So exactly how does this work?
You have a hose running from the bildge and another from the through hull to a t valve and then to the raw water impeller.

Most of the time the t valve is set to pull water from the thru-hull.

To winterize you just pour a couple gallons of anti-freeze in the bilge, switch the t valve and start the engine and wait until you see anti-freeze coming out of the wet exhaust outside pipe.

Is that about right?

If so how to you clear the line from the T to the thru-hull?


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

davidpm said:


> So exactly how does this work?
> You have a hose running from the bildge and another from the through hull to a t valve and then to the raw water impeller.
> 
> Most of the time the t valve is set to pull water from the thru-hull.
> ...


Yes, that is right except you don't pour AF into the bilge. You stick the hose into a bottle/bucket with AF in it.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I am not at the boat so I cant get a picture but will.

Our thru hull with handle is underneath the engine goes to 3" of hose and a 3 way handled ball valve.

Normally only one hose on this leading up to the strainer and then the raw water pump on the engine. 

In the inside lazzarette I have a loose 20 foot length of hose connected to a brass barbed fitting with a threaded end. I just screw the threaded end clamped to the hose into the 3 way ball valve opening and throw the handle. Oopen end of the hose has a screen strainer on it

Usually for winterization i just fill a bucket ( 3 gallon ) and suck the antifreeze into the engine.

Dave


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> We really dont disagree then
> 
> As stated my first two options are Rule bildge pumps. Option three is my diapram pump in my head to evacuate the shower sump ( we have a T there now). I could do the freshwater pump as you said. My anchor wash is in the anchor compartment way to far away with no in boat way of getting at it.
> 
> ...


I think the best investment for removing a lot of water quickly is the pump shown below or similar. That and a bucket are the only ways I know that will work without power. If all the electrical is dead there is a good chance the engine either will not run or possibly even start.

To not have a good manual pump of the diaphram type that can handle debris is a mistake I think. While a bucket can move a lot of water it is more work than a manual pump as in a boat of any size filling the bucket is just the first part. Then there are companionway stairs, bridge deck etc to deal with. Even in my 27' boat there is considerable labor to empty a bucket outside.

Another point that has not been made is that a smaller boat really needs larger capacity bilge pumping than a larger boat. 1000 gallons inside a 25' boat is a larger issue than 1000 gallons in a 45' boat.

I think if you want an engine pump a large capacity crash pump makes the most sense. If a Rule 1000 or 2000 is a joke compared to the intake volume then the engine's cooling pump is just as bad with the possible issues previously mentioned. You want to be gaining on the incoming water to find and stem the damage - if you are not capable of that it may be time to get into the liferaft.

Here's a link to a youtube video of Ciao sinking in the world rally last September. I doubt an engine water pump would have helped much.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

here's the type of manual pump I suggested above:


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Hi Brian.. good to 'see' you - where you been?

More on that sad story above:



> This sad bit of video, posted on YouTube by Yachting World just a few days ago, documents the last few moments of the life of Ciao, a Sweden Yacht 45 that sank in the Indian Ocean back in September during the current World ARC rally. Ciao and her owners, Srecko and Olga Pust of Slovenia, were en route from Indonesia to Cocos Keeling when the boat hit a USO (unidentified submerged object) about 40 miles short of her destination. Ciao's rudder was badly damaged and she quickly started taking on water.
> 
> The Pusts issued a Pan-Pan call that was answered by three other World ARC yachts in the vicinity. One of these, J'Sea, a Jeanneau 52.2 skippered by John Cuzner of Canada, took Ciao in tow while the Pusts struggled to control the flooding. Ultimately, however, as Ciao started foundering, the tow had to be abandoned.
> 
> The Pusts, who had been living aboard for several years, worked to evacuate as much stuff as they could, first sending Olga off the boat in their inflatable dinghy with a big clump of baggage. Srecko stayed aboard until the very end and finally came off in Ciao's liferaft.


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