# 66 ft Bruce Roberts hull to gut and renovate...is this a good deal?



## capoeirista

Hi There - 

My husband and I have run across what looks like a nice deal for a solid hull, and we're all kinds of excited to be purchasing it. We're wondering whether our excitement is short circuiting other parts of our collective brain.

Because this is my first post, the forum software stopped me from submitting a link. If you go to ebay.com, it's item number 200394919354. 

The seller is knowledgeable and willing to help us get it to Chesapeake bay to a haul out where we can gut it and work on renovation over the next year. 

What would be a reasonable price to pay for such a hull? I've worked in boatyards and done a lot of construction, so I'm not afraid of the renovation or work. We have a flexible schedule so we can devote a lot of time to it over the next couple of years. 

The current plan is to get it to a point where we can liveaboard, then add the sails in a year or so.

We were going to buy a house to renovate, but this looks like it will ultimately be more wonderful, and we've been talking about doing it for a few years now.

Are we nuts? Is it even reasonable to think about doing this? 

The second question, besides our questionable sanity, has to do with building the interior so that we can charter it later on. How do I find out the regulations for that? I used to work on a schooner, and the captain told me that she had been built for charter, which made it more expensive - if he sold it, it would go for something like $160k whereas a similar boat without the charter building would run around $80k. Since we're gutting it, I think it would be wise to look into doing that for this size boat. 

What other due diligence will I need to do?


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## badsanta

Do you have any information about the builder? You may not even be able to get insurance on it. It looks home built. I think a fair price if he gave it to you may be to expensive. There is not much info listed and very few photos and the few dont show much. It is not like a house and if any leans are on it you may be responsible for them. It may be a great deal. But you cannot run into this with out all the info. He has to sell it, if it had any value he would not let it go. It is his problem and it will cost him alot to dispose of it and is trying to sell it to get rid of a problem. Dont rush into this as it could cost more than you want. If you cant look at it and get some kind of profesinal advice, walk away. If you have never done this, please get some advice.


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## Bene505

This might help:




























Here's the link: 66ft World Cruiser Rugged Expedition Build BruceRoberts:eBay Motors (item 200394919354 end time Oct-22-09 13:14:11 PDT)

Regards,
Brad


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## Sequitur

Completing the boat will cost into the six digits; the mast, boom, standing and running rigging alone will cost you more than the price of a nice boat. Fix it up and you'll still have an unattractive, near impossible to insure and tougher to sell piece of s**t on your hands. Run away from it. Sorry for the reality.


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## Faster

Sequitur said:


> Completing the boat will cost into the six digits; the mast, boom, standing and running rigging alone will cost you more than the price of a nice boat. Fix it up and you'll still have an unattractive, near impossible to insure and tougher to sell piece of s**t on your hands. Run away from it. Sorry for the reality.


What he said!!


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## deniseO30

Well you asked..... Yes you are nuts!  I live very close to Delran. I could go look at it with you, bring ladders, lights etc, Call his bluff, and go see it after the bidding ends! It's not the only boat needing "TLC" and I'm sure you can do much better checking the back yards of Marinas near you. #1 issue; You need an out of the water survey. Storage around this area of the Del river starts around $36 a ft! a quick haul for that size is also going to be very pricey. IF you can find a marina that will even consider it. The bottom is more then dirty, That thing is a mess! Owner lied, it's going to cost thousands to get it to the bay. Just the fuel would be $500 for a boat towing it. I betting you will need permits and more, maybe even a tug boat! Easily, 250- 300K to get it ship shape. Bottom is almost positively rotted or badly blistered. The deck looks like a really bad overlay of gawd knows what. Cheribini Yachts is in Delran and they do high end restorations. I'm guessing that this boat is in the same area, there is also snug harbor, G. winters sailing, and riverside Marineas. I'd call the NJ state police and or the CG to find out if there is any legal issues with the boat and or moving it downriver and across the C&D.
I hope you come to your senses soon! 


PS: it is not a joke! when the owner says it has to be *gone by end of Oct.* they mean it! the NJ state police enforce the water ways as well as the CG, the CGX and the PA fish and game dept. BTW today is the 19th!


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## Stillraining

Good Hevens...*RUN!!*
Ask yourself one question.....Who would charter that even after the 200k your going to have to spend on it ( Minimum ) getting it all dalled up... when they can charter this for the same money?


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## US27inKS

I would swear I saw this boat in a post here about 2 years ago. I (and many others) told him to run, but it was too late.

Run before you get sucked in. The boat is worth $0 on a good day. IMO you're getting screwed if he gives it to you.


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## badsanta

If you want it real bad, have him pay you. he's got to pay some one to take it. Let us know what you decide.


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## capoeirista

*Wow! Okay...*

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you all for taking the time to go out of your way to check out the auction, and for your thoughtful replies.

We're listening.

And will give this a miss.

What we have learned from this is that it's time for us to do the boat dream and that if we're juiced to put what's necessary together to jump on something like this on short notice, then it's really time to do it thoughtfully.

I'm saddened because I really like the seller and we were developing a good rapport. It was wonderful to take his dreams and run with them. He has great ideas and has thought out many of the details about how to get this going, and has sourced the vendors to do the engine work and put the masts on. He's had the boat for a number of years and had lived aboard and done a lot of planning. He said that the hull was great and that he had hunted for over a year to find one this good.

My husband and I are happier than we've been in ages, talking about this and wanting to jump on this opportunity to be living on a huge sailboat. His father owned and rebuilt a boat exactly this size when he was 18, and has been doing fine woodwork forever. It looked like a project that would bring them closer together, and in the end we could share the profits with him.

So if we don't get this boat, it's time for us to get a different one - one that will be worth the investment. Let go of this particular boat, but not the dream. Let this boat be a catalyst.

If we take the next six months for research to find something that might wind up netting us both a boat to live on and a profit for sweat equity, then what would be good next steps? We were looking to invest around $30k to $60k over a couple of years to rebuild something magical - that would allow us to liveaboard and also wind up with a profit when we sold.

Any book recommendations? What's the best way to figure out what will be a worthwhile investment?

When I was working in a boatyard in Florida, it seemed the way to get a good deal on a boat would be to pick up hurricane salvage - where the insurance had completely written the boat off. I'm up in Boston now. I don't know if that would be a good strategy to start out with. My father-in-law is on his way to Florida and he's able to hunt around a bit.

Any other suggestions / strategies?

Thank you again. We appreciate your advice.


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## xort

66' is WAY too big. Think 40'.

Start looking into costs of docking a 60' boat. The slips are much harder to find and many you will find are in fancy marinas where they won't want you working on the boat.

A quality 36' boat is a MUCH better buy that a 60' fixer-upper.

And you will never make any money chartering a fixer upper. The bigger the boat, the more bristol it needs to be.


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## Jeff_H

I look at this a bit differently than some of the previous posters. What distinguishes you from many of the dreamers that show up with similar requests for information is that it sounds like you and your husband have enough experience to actually restore a big boat and run it in the charter trade. But that does not change the reality of this particular situation.

I will say that if you are truly going to do the charter thing, then it is critical for one of you, if not both to become licenced captains, and to completely understand all aspects of the charter business (Boat building standards for charter boats, Boat Maintenace, International Charter regulation and law, Marketing, Insurance, CPR/First aide, Scuba supervision and rescue, Preparing a viable business plan and obtaining long-term and short-term operational financing, catering and special diet planning, local safe and dangerous flora and fauna, let alone how to safely operate a big boat with know-nothing charterers on board and so on). Unless I missed it, neither of you current have a captain's ticket. That is the minimum price of admission.

I think that a 50 footer is pretty much the minimum practical size for a crewed charter with 55-65 feet being a more ideal minimum range for a crewed charter boat that you personally intend to live on. (Owner-operators are a very different situation than a captained charter boat owned by an absentee owner using a paid crew. Paid crews will live a lot more spartanly than owners who need the boat to be a base of operations for their entire life and the management of their chartering business.)

To be frank, even in boom times, boats like the one in question have a negative value, meaning that the materials and equipment alone to restore a boat like that would cost many times the value of the boat in perfect shape. In this case, the design is so mediocre that it will never be worth all that much as compared to better designed boats with better pedigrees.

Further reducing the value of this particular boat, or any boat needed a full restoration is the matter of restoration time. Even if you and your husband are tallented boatwrights and can put in 10 hours a day, seven days a week, and have a great boat shop with all the tools, turning a hulk into a boat that is safe, reliable, fully equipped and attractive to charterers, would take many years (my guess is three years minimum) during which you could be off sailing and earning money to support your dream.

Having helped prepare the calculations and documents for a boat that would simply be in the day charter business and watched the USCG certification process at work, getting a boat certified as suitable for charter is not for the faint of heart. There was a whole lot of paperwork that needed to be filed and a whole bunch of inspections that had to take place during construction. It can be done but It would not be the easiest process for someone to go through, especially someone who is early enough in this process to be asking," What are the regulations governing Charter boats?" (I don't mean that to sound critical or disrespectful in any way as I understand that we all go through a learning curve whenever we start a new venture.)

But that all brings me to my central point....In these times there are lots of super boats out there at bargain basement prices that are ready to go. I would suggest that you look for a fully operational boat that needs some aesthrtic help and perhaps instruments and mechanical upgrades. People like charter boats that are 'pretty' and offer reasonable preformance. The boat needs to be able to carry all the toys. I would suggest that you look for boats that were well built to begin with and which are structurally sound. Ideally, I would suggest that you look for a boat that is already in the charter trade since its certificates could be updated rather than created from scratch.

Here are a couple models that might give you an idea of what I am suggesting.

Bowman 57 1975 Bowman Ketch Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Lavranos 56 http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatFullDetails.jsp?boat_id=1961780&ybw=&units=Feet&access=Public&listing_id=1791&url==

Tayana 55/56 1988 Tayana Cruiser - Center Cockpit Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Farr 58: 1987 Farr 58 Center Cockpit Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com=

Camper Nicholson 55: 1971 Camper & Nicholsons Center Cockpit Yawl Sail Boat For Sale -

Deerfoot 61: 1988 Deerfoot Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com=

Swan 57: 1978 Nautor Swan 57 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Stillraining

Well just let me add..Congratulations on your willingness to listen to advice given...that's the fist Key to realizing your dream...

FWIW...I'm at 59K and counting in my refit and the boat started out looking like this below...30K is a down payment for permission to get in way over your head if planning on a COMPLEAT rebuild.


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## badsanta

Owning a boat and turning a profit does not fit in the same sentence, other than you profit from the joy of ownership. Imho


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## mygoggie

I walked the same road as you wanted to, albeit it being in another country.

The reality of the facts are that you will never make your money back on a Roberts. It is a name that rings the same as "ferrocrete" .... no resale perception and thus of no value.

What you must do is go and have a look at all the boats you can see. Yes it will be an endless list and you will get tired, but do not let the enthusiasm stop!

The golden rule is to get to know what is required to fix each boat. Then you take that list and put a money and also time value to that list. Then you times each of that by 3 and you should be very close to what it will cost you.

As suggested try and get a boat that was chartered as she will be in running condition and the best motivation to keep working on her is to sail while fixing her up. Be aware that the "to-do" list will alway be circular and will expand faster than a doughnut being fried.

Also remember that the equipment required on a 40' is not double in cost to that of a 20' - it grows exponentially in cost and that curve is STEEP!!

The best boat to buy is one that is in a deceased estate. That is how I found mine. I hunted the attorneys (sneaky) till I found the one I fell in love with. hmm ... I mean the boat!  

Live your dream!


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## capoeirista

Thank you for your thoughtful replies. Our strength is in the building - or rebuilding. 

We're not as interested in running a charter business as much as we are wanting to build something gorgeous, sail it to the far reaches, then sell it. I assisted someone in the charter business for three years in every aspect except financing, and while the captain was a dream to work for - scrupulously honest, and a very good captain - the business doesn't interest us as much as the actual building of something special. One reason, as has been pointed out, is that we're not actually captains (yet). A 66 footer is a lot of boat. The three of us have varying degrees of experience.

Our strengths would be in design, planning, project management, fiberglass handling and fine woodworking. We all share an obsessive craftsmanship and attention to detail that actually hurts us in most markets, but would be an asset in this one. We're also tired of being in the service sector and of selling our time. It makes sense to build something to sell. Creating exquisite charter boats from nice hulls that need a lot more than love would be a good use of our skills and get us sailing. Getting something large to liveaboard stage and finishing it while we're living in it also makes sense.

Of course, we're open to suggestions, as long as it involves us being on a boat.


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## mygoggie

capoeirista said:


> It makes sense to build something to sell.


Then you must buy something that will sell. Here are a list of blue water boats that will sell:
Alberg
Allied Princess
Baba
Bayfield
Bristol
C&C - Good value! C&C Yachts Yacht Sales
Cape Dory
CSY
Endeavour
Island Packet
Islander MKII
Luders
Morgan
Niagra
Pacific Seacraft
Pearson
S2
Tartan
Valiant

And my favourite will always be one of these (especially if you love woodwork) Cheoy Lees For Sale


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## capoeirista

Wow! While I was poking around writing my last reply, three more of you replied. I am blown away by what a great and supportive community you have here. Do you guys have any idea how cool you are? 

Really. No one has flamed me. You've been kind about where I'm unrealistic. You've all had great suggestions. One of you has even offered to go look at the boat with me! 

You've grabbed me by the collar as I was about to walk blindly off a cliff. You've oriented me in the right direction and given me a little shove. You've given me a lot to think about - all of it good. I cannot thank you enough.


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## capoeirista

Finding out what to look for was my next question! The Cheoy Lees are exquisite. There's something about a clipper bow that just lights my lights. Thanks for the link. There's even one to rebuild listed on the association website that you linked to!

That list will save me a lot of time trying to figure out what to look for. I hope it does so for others who stumble on this thread. 

I am so impressed by you guys. Thank you so much!


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## deniseO30

Hey? Do you and your hubby have names?? Also, where you live can be helpful for those already searching for a boat in your behalf! I know you made a good choice to RUN from the 66 ft derelict. Time is too short to make a move on that boat. It is likely stuck in the mud too. Tides run 6 -7ft around here normally. so that is a real concern when getting larger boats in to some of the area marinas. 
good luck in search!


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## tommays

Boat is sold with an Arkansas Bill of Sale only. Arkansas is my home state and it is a no-title state which registers boats only with a bill of sale and not with a title. The boat is currently registered in Arkansas as a 2009 "special construction vessel" (owner built) since I was planning to re-build it as a newly remodeled vessel in an 1990s hull. As a home built Bruce Roberts design vessel you will need to apply for a title in your home state as an owner built vessel or use the bill of sale to obtain a new title if you live in a state that requires titles. This is the standard process for all of the owner built Bruce Roberts boats. In your own state you will probably have the option of registering it as a newly constructed boat or one the same age as the hull, depending on your preference.


NO NO thats not how it works 

Is it from Nigera


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## capoeirista

Hi Denise, thanks for asking. We're in Boston right now but may head down to Ft Lauderdale for the winter. We spend a lot of time wherever our clients are. If we can keep our clientele on the East Coast, we might be able to liveaboard and move from project to project. With that being said, we love the West coast too and have clients there as well. (I'd especially love to sail around San Francisco.) Each project takes the better part of a year for the type of site we build. (They're social networks and prototype web applications.)

I'm guessing also from the following post that the no-title state thing that the seller was saying is in error? How does it work then? (He said that CT, PA, WI and Arkansas were all no-title states where the ownership was transferred with a bill of sale.)

Once again, I'm grateful I found you guys. 

Thanks again,

Lee


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## Superpickle

I dont know What those engines are, but it looks like TOAST, and to replace them could run you Over $12,000 Each, and thats Not getting Those out or the New ones in... it looks like it would make a nice Burning man sorta thingy :-( sorry..


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## CaptDaveWPF

*"Hurricane" boats*

I live in East Texas. Between here and the coast and east to Florida there are plenty left over from Rita and Ike and Katrina. Some of them are nice boats. Having said that ALL of them require skill sets that you either have or don't. I know of a few that were reclaimed by people who knew what they are doing and they are fine. BUT the people who bought and restored the boats have little or no need to pay other people for repairs. If you can do fiberglass work, engine work, weld, sew chshions, paint, and are an above average rigger then you couyld probably find a good hull (and yes it may have holes in it) and a year or so later have a completed boat that costs a tenth of what it was worth before the hurricane. However, if you have to hire out any of the work then that is going to drastically change the value of the boat to you. If you pay $1000 for a nice 40 foot hull but can't do any of the work youcould probably find a good boat with few or no problems sitting in a slip somethere for less money than paying someone else to restore one. And keep in mind that the costs of renovation go up exponentially according to the size of the boat. A couple of thousand dollars on a 23 footer is not bad; $300K on a 65 footer would bankrupt most folks.


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## capoeirista

Thanks for the input. These are wise words indeed and I appreciate that you took the time to reply.

We can pretty much cover everything, including electrical, but excluding diesel. I grew up in a fiberglass factory, my father-in-law and I can do woodwork, I've run electrical on a very large boat (motor) and houses. What I think would be the bee's knees would be to find something that has woodwork that would cause a lot of pain for others to do. We can do exquisite woodwork and that would probably wind up being our trademark. We also have some unfair advantages like access to some great rapid prototyping machines to do inlays.

This thread has been very helpful for us to not only narrowly escape a nasty situation, but also help us focus on where our strengths are. We only need one boat to start with. Somewhere there's a perfect one that has badly degraded woodwork, electrical and fiberglass that needs some love. 

Thank you all so much!


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## Superpickle

Take your time, and watch for the Perfect one for you. 
Stay in touch here and post Lots of pics,, we like Pics  
they take up lots of space, so we dont have to Read so much  


Paul...


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## davidpm

You may find reading "Occupation Circumnavigator" by Lars Hassler a useful resource.

I know you said you were not interested in chartering but building and selling. Lars had a brand new boat built and kept track of his costs while sailing it for 10 years. 
Very interesting read. Give you an idea of the cost of things.


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## hellosailor

Lee, any time you want to check title, sale, or registration laws, look for the state Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) on the web. If they're not in charge of boats in that state--they'll have a reference to the right department. There's nothing like getting the hard facts from the people who enforce them, to clear things up in a hurry.

And, by the way, NJ has become apparerntly the first state in the US to require proof of proficiency from ANY boater coming into state waters. You need either a NJ boater's card, or one from your own home state. No more exemptions for folks born before a certain date, or just passing through.


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## TSOJOURNER

It took me five years and 20,000 hours to completely rebuild a 19 foot wooden sloop. I made many new friends who helped me and sailed this little jewel for 17 years. When it was time for another major rebuild, I gave it away to a younger sailor who had stars in his eyes like I did. If you love a particular boat enough, the huge investment of money and time may be worth it. It was for me because I used the heck out of it, it looked like a goldplater from the past and sailed like a witch.
toots


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## capoeirista

You've probably all seen this, but I just found it and cannot stop reading it. It's at arachnoid dot com slash sailbook (I still can't post a link.)

It's an ebook called *Confessions of a Long-Distance Sailor*, and it's an account of a software developer going around the world on his boat - like we hope to be. I'm completely caught up in it. He goes into great detail about what his life's like, what breaks, what's great, anchorage tales - all kinds of things. Have any of you read it? If so what do you think of it?

On Amazon, there are two *Occupation Navigator* books listed by Lars Hassler. One is *Occupation Navigator: Sailing Around the World* - out of print but available used, and the other is *Occupation Navigator: How to Finance a Lifestyle. 10 Years on the Seven Seas with S/Y Jennifer - which is out of print and unavailable. I've ordered the available one, and will keep an eye out for the other. The covers are different, but the blurbs sound similar enough that they may be different editions of the same book. 

I eagerly await its arrival.

I'm certainly not above chartering. I enjoyed working on the charter schooner a *LOT* - I think it was my favorite job ever. Don't want to sound like I'm ruling anything out completely. 

@hellosailor - Thanks for the info! I appreciate it. Is this where I'll find out info on charter regulations for rebuilding boats?

@tubatooter1940 - Do you have any pics? I'd love to see them and I heard somewhere that they're much liked by the sailnet denizens! Is it really true that the sound of waves slapping against the hull is very different than the sound of fiberglass or metal? I bet she was gorgeous!

Thank you all for your replies here. I'm floored by the wealth of knowledge you are willing to share and how valuable it is!


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