# C&C "smile", crack at the stub/keel joint... problem?



## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

My father is about to purchase a 1982 C&C 32. The boat is in excellent condition, with the exception of this crack:

OK, the photo will follow, having trouble posting it right now. But it's pretty simple, it's a crack in the bottom paint from the leading edge of the keel back about 1 foot along the keel stub/keel joint (where the glass meets the lead). As far as I can see, it is about 1/16 inch wide at the most, possibly even less. I can't tell how deep the crack goes without chipping many layers of old bottom paint. 

I imagine that checking the keel bolt tension is in order, then maybe some caulking (4200 or life caulk?) at the crack, would fix this, it's not really a big fix. Am I right about that?

It's gonna go in the water in a few days, I was thinking to simply wait until the winter haulout to address this issue. The keel has been on there for 30 years, I can't imagine it will fall off now. I checked all the keel bolts inside, they are clean and rust free. Am I seriously risking a major structural failure by waiting for the end of the season to check the tension in the bolts and re-caulk? 

I read Don Casey's article on keel re-bedding, and it seems a re-bed might eventually be in order, but being a lead keel this may be extremely difficult. He seems to say that, if it's really tough and there are no actual structural failures, it is often best to just leave well enough alone. Thoughts?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Not uncommon, and probably mostly cosmetic, but the precautions you mention make sense.

Your surveyor's comments on the item should be your guide.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

For some insight of how bad it could be, look here.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

For some more insight of how bad it could be, look here. This is an example of what was holding my 10,200 Lb. iron keel on. There were five pieces of channel and 10 bolts - all that bad. For some unaccountable reason it wasn't even leaking.


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## peterchech (Sep 2, 2011)

You guys are scaring me... 

I have to say though, the keel bolts are almost completely corrosion free in the sump, unlike in most of the examples of corroded keel bolts that I found online


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

peterchech said:


> You guys are scaring me...
> 
> I have to say though, the keel bolts are almost completely corrosion free in the sump, unlike in most of the examples of corroded keel bolts that I found online


Um...
Before dropping the keel;​









Same bolt after dropping the keel;​









I'm not trying to scare you. I just want you to know what you are potentially in for.


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## Tanley (Aug 20, 2009)

Peter, we had a similar issue when we bought our '87 Cal a couple of years ago. 

Herlihy's post/advice convinced me drop the keel this past off season and have it re-bed. Although the bolts ended up being fine, the peace of mind in knowing it's OK was more than worth the cost and effort. After 25+ years, it's a maintenance item that need's to be done regardless. 

Walk around a yard when the boats are on the hard and you'll see all types of cracks at the keel to hull joint. It's normal, but shouldn't be taken for granted.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

peterchech said:


> You guys are scaring me...
> 
> I have to say though, the keel bolts are almost completely corrosion free in the sump, unlike in most of the examples of corroded keel bolts that I found online


As Aherlihy points out, it's the part going through the hull where the problem usually occurs, not the exposed area and nuts.

FYI though, the smile is commonplace - it's routinely called the C&C smile and the Catalina smile - seldom a serious problem.


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## Dog Ship (Sep 23, 2011)

I don't see any bonding wires on those bolts.
The keel bolts on my C&C 32 are attached to the boats bonding system and the studs and nuts and backing plates are still shiny and new in appearance.
I would guess that the studs in the picture were destroyed by electrolysis rather than corrosion.


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## msmith10 (Feb 28, 2009)

I agree with Sloopjonb. This is an almost universal and usually cosmetic problem with C&Cs as well as other brands.
You MAY have keel bolt corrosion also but I'd say the two issues are no more linked than the fact that you may have a cracked swage fitting on your rigging.

Loosen keel bolts, clean out the crack, caulk and retorque. Or just caulk it and sail for this season.


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## ahab211 (Jan 6, 2008)

I had the same on my C&C 24 and used spot putty after tightening the bolts and some bottom paint and was good to go. Bolts looked good! More cosmetic unless corroded or damaged!


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## SloopDogg (Mar 4, 2010)

I have a smile on my Viking 33. The caulk joint behind it looks fine and it faired over. so the fairing is coming off.

I intend on torquing the bolts and possibly re-fairing


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

SloopDogg said:


> I have a smile on my Viking 33. The caulk joint behind it looks fine and it faired over. so the fairing is coming off.
> 
> I intend on torquing the bolts and possibly re-fairing


I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating, given the circumstances.

IIRC, those Viking 33's had their keels epoxied on, not just sealed with flexible gunk of some sort. There was a story (Pacific Yachting??) back in the day about one that went on the rocks in Porlier Pass. Its keel got bent as a result and it had to be SAWN off.

You are very likely just suffering from some minor flexure, just enough to crack the filler in the seam.

It's worth checking out anyway.


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## SloopDogg (Mar 4, 2010)

Thats exactly how it looks. The expoxy got flexed and let go and under it I can see what looks like caulk of sorts.

When you say "checked out" what are you suggesting I do?

I peeled away some more of the epoxy since the above photo. I'll take some more next time I'm down there.


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## dsmauney (Feb 29, 2000)

By what I saw on my keel when I dropped it and what Ed H and Maine Sail show in their great pictures the corrosion loss is inside the nuts above the bilge floor. The thickness of the bilge floor being indicated by the white 5200 on the threads. What this means of course is that the bolts can be inspected by removing the nuts while on the hard. Am I missing something here?

Good Winds
DaveM


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

SloopDogg said:


> When you say "checked out" what are you suggesting I do?


I meant checking to confirm that the keels were actually epoxied on (bedded with epoxy) rather than being bedded with 5200 or some such. I was relating a 35 or 40 year old memory of something I read - far from a guarantee that your keel IS mounted that way.

Is there an owners group for Ontario yachts for example?


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