# To be armed when cruising?



## northbay (Aug 6, 2008)

Hello list,
Troubling news out of Guatemala with the death of a 66
year old cruiser and assult of his 67 year old wife while both
onboard.

I for one support the idea of being armed. Other ideas for 
securing one's boat must be considered. What say you all?

Bob s/v Journey


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Try the search function, Bub. I'm sure someone has commented on this topic at some point in the past.

Me, I don't patronize crappy little narcorepublics and spread deck-coloured tacks around, a la Slocum. YMMV.


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## Johnrb (Sep 21, 2002)

Here is the link to the earlier discussion:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...d/45938-us-sailor-hacked-death-guatemala.html


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## Perithead (Nov 16, 2007)

Well, if everyone is on the water legally then everyone is already armed.

If someone pointed a flare gun at me I think I would stop what I was doing.

So, a flare gun would be good protection. If you want something more then just get yourself a small spear gun with a pistol grip. That would scare me too.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

You ever watch Dead Calm? I was once being followed by a Panga in Mexico. They kept coming closer, and closer. I tried to communicate with them, but no reply. When I pulled out the flare gun they made an abrupt turn away, and kept going!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

imagine2frolic said:


> You ever watch Dead Calm? I was once being followed by a Panga in Mexico. They kept coming closer, and closer. I tried to communicate with them, but no reply. When I pulled out the flare gun they made an abrupt turn away, and kept going!


Flare gun??? Are you crazy?!? WHo needs a flare gun? What you need is this ferocious animal for protection:










Oh, no... crap! Not that pic. Sorry. Wrong one. Here is is... the MAN EATER!!!










Now, aren't you scared?? Eh??

- CD


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

I'll stick with the flare gun. Those vicious BEASTS are too damned cute to toss at a panga 20 yards away


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## magnusmurphy (Jul 7, 2000)

If you are referring to the incident in the Rio Dulce, there is a long discussion on the Seven Seas Cruising Association's bulletin board. This incident was part of a rash of boat boardings by a drug gang. The government sent a whole lot of army troops and most of the implicated people were captured and in fact, most were killed in the ensuing battles. This particular incident seems to have been resolved.

Whether having guns on board would have helped against heavily armed gansters is debatable. It might have triggered early and heavy shooting from them. Fiberglass is not bulletproof.

M Murphy


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

What, you didn't order a couple extra layers of kevlar for your boat??? 


magnusmurphy said:


> If you are referring to the incident in the Rio Dulce, there is a long discussion on the Seven Seas Cruising Association's bulletin board. This incident was part of a rash of boat boardings by a drug gang. The government sent a whole lot of army troops and most of the implicated people were captured and in fact, most were killed in the ensuing battles. This particular incident seems to have been resolved.
> 
> Whether having guns on board would have helped against heavily armed gansters is debatable. It might have triggered early and heavy shooting from them. *Fiberglass is not bulletproof.*
> 
> M Murphy


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## MMurphy (Jun 29, 2002)

Oops, damn...I knew I forgot something...

Anyway, one can only hope one never gets into a situation like that - it's alltogether bad, whatever weapons you have on board and the eventual outcome uncertain. At least this particular case was taken very seriously by the country in question's authorities (apparently even some cabinet minister went to talk to cruisers), which is not what one can apparently say about what's going on in Venezuela

M Murphy

I wanted to paste a link to the discussion here but sailnet refused, stating I only have 5 posts. Funny, I've been posting here for more than five years! Anyway, Look for "Rio Dulce" under "destinations" on the SSCA website bulletin board.


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## Iflyka200s (Oct 3, 2007)

*Whether having guns on board would have helped against heavily armed gansters is debatable.*


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## sck5 (Aug 20, 2007)

After the fact, sure, you can say they couldnt have been worse off if they had a gun. But before the fact you never know - shooting at someone who is already pointing a gun at you isnt always the best way to come out of a situation in good shape - It may not be macho, but just forking over the money and electronics might well be the smarter thing to do.

And yes, I own lots of guns but mostly use them to shoot deer, geese and clay pigeons.


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## Danny33 (Nov 21, 2007)

The onlything is the brown bear up here ..seven footers on some of the islands . 45 230 grain hollow just in case . two clips ready !

I like to explore way in the out back mountains and havent been bothered yet ..been charged a few times ...I m a guest in their land and respect that. 
I would nt mind having a brown blanket to keep me warm on the cold nights be worth the time curing the hide .

People are sometimes the trouble in the third world areas .. you are rich in their eyes . Dont know how to take that.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

A flare gun is one shot. A spear gun is one shot. What do you do about the other three thieves? Play dead? I don't think that would work. The best firearm would be a short barreled shotgun. Not a sawed off shotgun, they are illegal and will land you in prison, not just jail. Read some articles on tactical weaponry. I have read some articles by this guy. 
Massad ayoob, lethal force institute, ammunition sales, handgun ammunition, tactical gear
He is tops in self-defense. I think he would talk about the foolishness of using a flaregun or a speargun to scare off four or five thugs. A pistol is not good in trying to prevent a robbery. The assailant is right on top of you. Unless you have practiced extensively and can maintain calm to line your shot up, your dead. Better to just point and pull the trigger (short barreled shotgun). As well, as silly as the english bulldog may be (no more silly than my cockapoo's) a dog is a really good advance warning that something is not right. My dogs can hear anything. When the dog barks, you may not have to fire a shot. Hopefully the thieves will run. But if they don't, its good to know that I can fill up the thieves up with #2 shot.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Birdman,
Whether having guns on board would have helped against heavily armed gansters is debatable. I agree with you. But the article did not say anything about the thieves being heavily armed. They had machetes. You know, long knives. They thing that is not debatable is what would have happened to the thieves once I took the safety off and squeezed. Do I sound trigger happy? Do I sound like a gun nut? Presently, I don't even own a firearm. I am not trigger happy. But I would not hesitate to take the life of a person that I knew wanted to cause myself, my loved ones, or even you Birdman, physical harm. Lets hope that if you are ever put in the position to have to defend yourself, you'll have the weapon and the desire to take care of yourself.


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## MMurphy (Jun 29, 2002)

One of the practical problems everyone always neglects to mention is this: In most countries you have to hand in your firearms when you check in. So, in the absolute majority of situations where boardings occur, you will not be in possession of your firearms anyway. Then add up the hassles of all of that, plus the practicalities of retrieving them from the same port where they were handed in and where does that leave your cruising itinerary? I have no personal experience of this though so it will be interesting to hear from someone who does in fact, travel with firearms and this is crucial - do so legally; thus declare them in each and every port. Is it in fact practical and possible to cruise with firearms?


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## Danny33 (Nov 21, 2007)

You can make your own shot shells ..glass ,shreded metal ..cut the barrel down to legal ..scatter gun !

Will you stay calm to solve the issue ? can you live with the resaults ?
Look at the first time with cpr and how your mind forgets everything you were trained to do .minutes are hours so it seems at first untill the mind gets imprinted and time slows down.

What country will let you defend yourself ? I live in a state in the USA that allows it s citzen to carry with your drivers licence...except state and fed buildings or schools .

I try to keep my pistol skill 50 yds in three inch and the 300 win mag at 300 yards thats my goal and most of the time it stays on ..to say and to take aim at another ...........eaiser said.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I carry a small assortment of arms for the same reasons as Danny33. That, and it is legal to shoot deer from a boat as long as the engine isn't on  

I don't really like having guns aboard. They are awkward to carry and they rust (even the stainless models). Ammo must be kept dry and clean. They are just another thing you have to watch out for that maybe you might possible get a chance to use once in 100 lifetimes to shoot a bad guy. I think there are enough, more significant and far more likely risks to guard against. The exception is places like Alaska where you really do need a firearm. The one time I didn't take my revolver we caught a 270lb halibut. Took a couple hours for it to die and it could have done real damage to the boat. We got lucky with that one. A shot through the brain would have made things a lot quicker!


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

> we caught a 270lb halibut.


Brings new meaning to "we're having fish again".


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## MMurphy (Jun 29, 2002)

Nobody has yet answered the question whether it is possible/practical to cruise with firearms. With cruise I mean Caribbean, Pacific or world cruising, NOT playing in your USA backyard.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Is it possible yes, is it practical, no.


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## MMurphy (Jun 29, 2002)

I think the thing is the discussion gets bogged down in some ways with "should you or shouldn't you", whereas we forget how it will impact the rest of the cruise. Given that as far as I know you usually have to hand over the weapons, it then means you have to return to the same port when you want to check out of the country again. Very often that will mean going back against the weather. Or it may mean you cannot cruise the coast since you cannot or do not want to go back. Not declaring the weapons is not an option for any sane person, given the potential consequences. So where does that leave the debate? In my opinion it isn't really practical, and therefore not possible, to enjoy the cruising life with firearms aboard. When cruising in the US and being a US citizen, sure, I assume it is, but then again, you don't need it. If you argue you really need firearms when cruising in the US, I think you really rather need a psychologist.

Again, I'd love to hear from someone who successfully and legally (this is key) cruise the world with firearms and to tell us how that impacts the practicality of the cruise.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Alex Dorsey from Project BlueSphere - A solo circumnavigation & video documentation of the globe. claimed to have cruised with guns aboard. He went through the Caribbean and Panama with them. I haven't read his logs enough to find out if he declared them or not. Go to his website and send him an e-mail. He seems like a nice enough guy to be inclined to answer a few questions.

As of should you or shouldn't you. No. Even cruising in "our USA backyard" no. Canada is horrible about letting guns through. Heck, they don't even let you bring mace or pepper spray. A lot of counties have a ban on "military ammunition" which pretty much means everything useful except .22LR. A lot of places judge your weapons on appearance too. An "assault rifle," whatever that is, is sure to draw a lot more attention that your grandpa's lever-action. Another useful site that has every cruisable county in the world's regulations is www.noonsite.com.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I want a gun so I can sail to Cuba in safety, shoot a Rocna anchor, and adjust my solar stik without leaving the safety of the center cockpit of my full keeled Magregor 26X.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sorry Cam, Rocna's aren't in season, so you can't shoot them... and they didn't make a MacGregor 26X in a center cockpit version.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Really?? I didn't know that...the salesman told me they did. Do you think he was lying about the full keel too? When does the Rocna season open...could I shoot the Bulwagga in the meantime? Can you direct me to the Cuban site where you got the information about the hunting season? I understand that Raul may be a bit more open minded about such things than Fidel.


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## MMurphy (Jun 29, 2002)

Hi Sailboy

It is my opinion that firearms are NOT the way to go but I wanted to make the point logically, rather than emotionally. And you're right about Canada. That's where I live and I'm very thankful about Canada's attitude about firearms. I'm an expat South African and can remember the days I used to pack a handgun even to go to the movie theater. Thank god I now don't even have to think about that anymore. I also just cruised through most of the Caribbean (FL to Grenada) and not ONCE did I even think of the need to have a gun on board. Remember Peter Blake and the reason he's dead?
Also, if one EVER kill someone you suspected of being a dangerous pirate and it turns out to be some poor fisherman who simply wanted to rob you, well these countries might just stick you in some hellhole and throw the key away.
The risks and potential benefits don't weigh up. The risk-reward ratio is clearly in favor of NOT packing.
That's my strong opinion anyway.

M Murphy


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> And you're right about Canada. That's where I live and I'm very thankful about Canada's attitude about firearms. I'm an expat South African and can remember the days I used to pack a handgun even to go to the movie theater.


Interesting. Did you carry lawfully in South Africa?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Cam-

To hunt Rocnas, you need to be from an Allied country...  My uncle got me my passes to go hunting...



camaraderie said:


> Really?? I didn't know that...the salesman told me they did. Do you think he was lying about the full keel too? When does the Rocna season open...could I shoot the Bulwagga in the meantime? Can you direct me to the Cuban site where you got the information about the hunting season? I understand that Raul may be a bit more open minded about such things than Fidel.


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## MMurphy (Jun 29, 2002)

Yes I did. It's a sad thing really, the need to try and feel safe by doing that. South Africa has changed a lot since I left fifteen years ago and I have no idea about current laws or the situation now. The point as far as cruising is concerned it is my opinion that the actual chance that firearms can help you, weighed against all the negatives doesn't make it a logical proposition. Not where most of us will be cruising anyway. Better to try and avoid places where the risks are elevated of running into a dangerous situation than thinking you'll be able to defend yourself because you're armed. The fact is the baddies might either be simply very poor people being opportunistic, or on the other extreme, hardened well armed criminals. How are you going to make the judgement? If the former and you kill anyone, you're screwed. If the latter and you pull your piece, you're totally screwed (Peter Blake again). Both ways you'd have been better off being without and acting accordingly. Having firearms on board might possibly also cause so much hassle that you may be tempted to not report them, with disastrous consequenses for yourself.


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## MMurphy (Jun 29, 2002)

Here's an example:
A friend of ours was briefly taken into custody in Nevis this year, and ALMOST had his boat confiscated because he took his dog to shore. The only reason they let him go, was because the officials felt pity towards his wheelchair bound son and the fact that the dog was a companion dog. It doesn't take brilliance to realize the consequences if one shoots a local who you CLAIM wanted to rob you - with an undeclared firearm. It would have had to be an undeclared one, since if you declared it it would either not be in your possesion, or would have been rendered inoperable while in the country. So, if you had it, it would have been illegal but since you have it, you would be tempted to use it right? Otherwise why have it? If you're going to declare it everywhere, WHY on earth even have it?


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

I agree that to carry while cruising is probably too much of a hassle *for me*. I disagree that it is a *universally logical* conclusion. It all depends on how willing you are to leave your safety up to someone else and luck and what risks you are willing to take, and that varies from person to person. There have been folks who have successfully cruised with firearms and have saved their lives as a result of having them.

From a first hand account of a guy who shot several pirates off Yemen:



> At that point I, Rod Nowlin aboard Mahdi and armed with a 12 gage shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot, started shooting into their boat. I forced them to keep their heads down so that they could not shoot at us. I am not sure I hit anyone at that point although I could see the driver of the boat crouched down behind a steering console. After firing 3 shots at them their engine started to smoke and I swung around to shoot at the boat ahead. At that point, I saw Jay Barry on Gandalf ram that boat amidships almost cutting it in two and turning it almost completely over. I turned back around to shoot again at the boat behind Mahdi and that is when they turned away from Mahdi and were heading toward the stern of Gandalf. Gandalf was beside us, about 100 feet away. The bow of the pirate's boat came right up against Gandalf's stern and two men stood up on the bow to board Gandalf. That was a serious and probably fateful error on their part. I shot both of them. That boat then veered away and I shot the driver, although I am not sure of the outcome because they were farther away and I did not knock him down like the other two.


http://www.noonsite.com/Members/doina/R2005-03-14-1


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

MMurphy said:


> South Africa has changed a lot since I left fifteen years ago and I have no idea about current laws or the situation now.


I'm also an ex South African and also used to carry wherever I went but that was 20 years ago. Now it would not be clever because the baddies get to shoot at people far more often so they're much better at it and they're also way better armed. A 45ACP or Hi-power Browning doesn't stack up well against an AK47.

That's also why carrying weapons on a cruising boat is not clever either. As said before, the opportunist will cost you your liberty if you shoot him and he turns out to be unarmed and the serious "pirate" will shoot the [email protected] out of you with a far stronger arsenal. Better to give up the goodies than your life.

I've always fancied the idea of firing a parachute flare into the interior of their vessel as it comes alongside. Dealing with the ensuing fire should keep them occupied for a while . . . just kidding, that's almost sure to get you killed.

Andre


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Omatako said:


> I've always fancied the idea of firing a parachute flare into the interior of their vessel as it comes alongside. Dealing with the ensuing fire should keep them occupied for a while . . . just kidding, that's almost sure to get you killed.
> 
> Andre


You mean the real world isn't like _Captain Ron_? I think I'm going to cry....


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## bobwebster (Jan 25, 2005)

This topic has been thoroughly thrashed out in several threads. I'll summarize my opinion:

1. It is possible to legally carry a gun on your boat in most countries.
2. If you fail to declare and/or register your gun in some countries, and if your gun happens to be found in a thorough drug search, you will likely spend some months or years in jail. 
2a. It's a pain to declare a gun in some countries.
3. Some countries don't allow handguns (Canada, frexample), and most don't allow fully-auto guns (for ordinary people)
4. A single shotgun may not be enough against 2 or 3 armed people, or for an AK-47. Consider hand grenades or 155mm deck guns.
5. A shotgun with slugs works for polar bears. A shotgun with light load and small shot is good for skeet. It is considered bad form to shoot the topping lift instead of the clay pigeon.
6. If you are interested in increasing your chances of survival, STAY CLIPPED IN!


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## Jonesee (Nov 17, 2007)

Danny33 said:


> You can make your own shot shells ..glass ,shreded metal ..cut the barrel down to legal ..scatter gun !
> 
> Will you stay calm to solve the issue ? can you live with the resaults ?
> Look at the first time with cpr and how your mind forgets everything you were trained to do .minutes are hours so it seems at first untill the mind gets imprinted and time slows down.
> ...


That is pretty damn good shooting... 3" group at 50 yards? What are you shooting? Are you utilizing a laser or scope? I have shot competitvely and if you are doing that freehand I assume you have a custom built or at least highly customized handgun. There is quite a bit of compensation for drop on a big bore at 50 yards alone. I don't know of a mass produced hand gun that can achieve that consistently. And VERY few non-competitve shooters could acheive it. Combat/defense distances are usually looked at as 21 yards.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

WOW!! I dont think I can do that with my Scope mounted TC contender in 243 unless Im at a bench.

I use to down load 44 mags to around 850 to 900 fps and cast my own lead..I got fairly good off hand at 25 yards..brain wont recall how good.. that was 25 years ago but I think I had fliers outside 2 or 3" quite often.


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## northbay (Aug 6, 2008)

How about the issue of securing the boat so that the "enemy"
can't gain entery down below? Nice new handgun out now, shouts 410 and
45 long in a five shoot capacity. Again, not gun happy but sometimes you
need an edge. Things are going to get rougher out there. Living the dream
is great as long as it doesn't become a nightmare. AND you it can happen in the USof A... outside Baltimore. 

Bob


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## Allanbc (Apr 19, 2007)

Jonesee said:


> That is pretty damn good shooting... 3" group at 50 yards? What are you shooting? Are you utilizing a laser or scope? I have shot competitvely and if you are doing that freehand I assume you have a custom built or at least highly customized handgun. There is quite a bit of compensation for drop on a big bore at 50 yards alone. I don't know of a mass produced hand gun that can achieve that consistently. And VERY few non-competitve shooters could acheive it. Combat/defense distances are usually looked at as 21 yards.


I can make one ragged hole single shot groups at fifty yards with any of my handguns, rifles, or shotguns! 

I do own guns and I have training in using them, however, it seems to me that the hassles of carrying a gun on a long voyage seem to out weigh the benefits. While I would rather be armed, I will stick with other defensive options.


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## Jonesee (Nov 17, 2007)

AllanBC, I had to read your post twice!! LOL. Still, you are ahead of most if you can hit a target at all at 50 yards with a handgun.

As for gentleman who commented on the 45/410. That handgun is a Taurus. The effective defensive distance of that gun is about 10 yards. That is less than the distance of most boats. It is for up close and personal work.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

bobwebster said:


> This topic has been thoroughly thrashed out in several threads. I'll summarize my opinion:


Sure has, but still makes for interesting conversation. And I suspect those that DO cruise around the world with weapons are NOT the ones debating about it on some internet forum!!!

Did anyone watch "Ice Blink" that aired on PBS a month or two ago. It was about the Martin family and their adventures. At one point they are visiting a country where they rent a high-powered rifle for polar bear defense. I have never heard of renting a gun before, but that is an interesting idea.


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## MMurphy (Jun 29, 2002)

I saw a friend and his student put two arrows simultaneously through the middle of a beer can from 60m (197 feet). The two arrows pinned the can to the target and were exactly 1cm apart!
Granted the friend is a two time world archery champion, European, South African and US 3D champion, but the student has only been shooting for 18 months!
Not a valid defence in close quarters but might be helpful to kill that big fish someone mentioned. I also wonder how a bow and arrows will be viewed by officialdom? One can argue you need it to shoot coconuts out of the trees...


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## northbay (Aug 6, 2008)

I figure once they are on my boat, that's "up close and personal". 
If they are standing off the boat, then I figure I can deter them with a 
45 long close by. But the question still remains, how do you secure the
boat from intrusion down below. Again if we are asleep, and they come
onboard now I'm up close and personal. i.e. down mexico way.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

MMurphy said:


> I saw a friend and his student put two arrows simultaneously through the middle of a beer can from 60m (197 feet). The two arrows pinned the can to the target and were exactly 1cm apart!
> Granted the friend is a two time world archery champion, European, South African and US 3D champion, but the student has only been shooting for 18 months!
> Not a valid defence in close quarters but might be helpful to kill that big fish someone mentioned. I also wonder how a bow and arrows will be viewed by officialdom? One can argue you need it to shoot coconuts out of the trees...


Don't be so quick to laugh. A composite bow can be broken down into various pieces and has a real function in sending a messenger line to another boat or to shore, or even to fire a halyard that has snaked over a spreader round to the proper part of the mast. You could even fire a 5 mm Dyneema line to a COB to drag them in.

Fishing might get more complex, and I doubt it's much of a defense (unless you sent a flaming arrow into an outboard?), but I can see a few uses for a bow and arrows aboard.


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## loxegwen (May 24, 2008)

I had a good idea for a gun safe. If you have access to your keel bolts, you could fabricate a false top for that compartment fitted between the ribbing with some sort of cut keel blots and nuts sticking out the top. It be the perfect size for a pistol while being reasonably accessible and no one would ever be wise to it!


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

loxegwen said:


> I had a good idea for a gun safe. If you have access to your keel bolts, you could fabricate a false top for that compartment fitted between the ribbing with some sort of cut keel blots and nuts sticking out the top. It be the perfect size for a pistol while being reasonably accessible and no one would ever be wise to it!


I've heard of boats being subject to some pretty thorough searches before.......especially if your a North American boat somewhere like Indonesia. 20 years in an indonesian jail is a long time.

Obviously it's a very individual decision, and there are alot of different philosophical and cultural perspectives here, but personally I wouldn't carry a gun onboard a world cruise.

As others have said the practical considerations alone make it a bad idea. In my experience it seems a lot of American boats do at the outset, but often by the time they get down here they have abandoned the idea because of the hassle...


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

I know this is an old tread, but the biggest deterant you yanks have is your flag. Everybody thinks your boats are floating gun carriers.


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## huguley3 (May 7, 2007)

I have always heard our biggest deterrent was our personalities. But you are probably just being polite. 

I recently bought a Mossberg 590 in case a zombie outbreak occurs. Had I known I was this close to possibly owning a boat I would have gotten the marinized version. Can zombies swim?


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

SimonV said:


> I know this is an old tread, but the biggest deterant you yanks have is your flag. Everybody thinks your boats are floating gun carriers.


That's the benefit of some citizens carrying concealed in public as well. The bad guys can't be sure he's bitten off more than he can chew.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Not in salt water, the salt breaks the magic that powers them. 


huguley3 said:


> I have always heard our biggest deterrent was our personalities. But you are probably just being polite.
> 
> I recently bought a Mossberg 590 in case a zombie outbreak occurs. Had I known I was this close to possibly owning a boat I would have gotten the marinized version. Can zombies swim?


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

SimonV said:


> I know this is an old tread, but the biggest deterant you yanks have is your flag. Everybody thinks your boats are floating gun carriers.


"Thinks" implies there's some doubt on your part? 

Hey, it works-out to the benefit of our friends, too, you know. We see a friendly flag being hassled, we mosey on over for a look-see, whomever is hassling our friend sees us coming, suddenly remembers they have urgent business elsewhere 

Jim


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## Lostmt (Jun 4, 2006)

I'm not a gunsmith but here is an idea that could make someone a lot of money.

They make a 45, small pistol, that also take a 410 shell if I remember correctly. What if someone built a flare gun that was capable of shooting a 410 shotgun shell? It would be looked at like a regular flare gun and not much else. 

A 410 round would do a lot of damage.


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## huguley3 (May 7, 2007)

I think its a .410 that will also shoot 45s. Tuarus makes one called the rampage or something like that. I don't want to be in court and have to explain my mindset when the DA asks what I was thinking when I bought a gun called the rampage and proceded to shoot someone. They need to make a gun called the Fuzzy Bunny so when the attornies ask the jury snickers.

Even if the gun looked like something else the shotshells and cartridges would be a giveaway.


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## PPPPPP42 (Mar 11, 2009)

Not to drag this old thing up again, but it seems that most people seem to think having a gun on board implys using a pistol against multiple targets with ak-47's. They sell Ak-47's (romanian I think) converted to semi auto at the local Fleet Farm near my house for just a few hundred dollars and you need no permits and can walk out the door with it about 15 mins after walking in. A 40 round clip is easy easy enough to get for one and I normally order 7.62x39 fmj in cases of many many hundreds if not thousands. One of the attachable knife bayonets would be useful for close quarters as it doesnt block the shots when attached. For a higher powered rifle on the cheap theres the old soviet mosin nagant varieties. The m44 even comes with a foot long fold out cruciform bayonet to use as an anti boarding pike or hot dog roaster depending on the situation. They have 5 round stripper clip magazines and are on par with a 30-06 for power. The best ammo for this application would probably be 180 grain steel core armor piercing rounds for hull penetration. I bought my mint condition unissued Yugoslavian 59/66 sks for $150 before the prices increased. It features a 10 round stripper clip fed magazine, radioactive (glow green in the dark) flip up tritium night sights, a fold out foot long knife style bayonet and has the attachments and flip sight for a certain type of nato rifle grenade. Only the practice grenades are available but you can also get smoke launchers and high flying parachute flares that would be of great use on a boat, as well as tennis ball and golf ball launchers that are excellent for other mischief.
For those of you with $100k plus of fiberglass under your sails and a little money to spend I would reccomend the colt ar-15 M4 available in limited quantities through several catalogs for reasonable prices. its the semi auto version of the M16 and the M4 variant has a heavy barrel for accuracy, the rails for attachements like a scope and light, the birdcage flash supressor but most importantly it has the attaching point for the M203 grenade launcher (availabe off the internet) which has all the advantages of the Yugo SKS grenade launcher but also can handle flechette launchers and the "hornets nest" which is 10 .22 long rifle rounds in a pack that all fire at once, think of it as a super shotgun with much longer range. You could throw a football through the hole that would make in a boat or person. For long range deterrence id reccomend the 50 caliber BMG sniper rifles with bipod also available from catalogs. Even with the moving target being shot at from a rocking moving target, hitting a boat sized target is almost assured at 300 meters and longer shots are definetly possible up to a kilometer depending on sea conditions the quality of the gun and the skill of the shooter. The reccomended ammo for this application would be the APIT round or armor piercing incendiary tracer. Not only can you easily penetrate in one side of an attacking boat and out the other but it will ignite flammible things like fuel tanks and the tracer allows you to correct your aim after each shot. That ammo is available from many websites for about $3 a round so don't go target shooting with it for fun.

All that being said the most import thing is to only carry the right weapons based on the laws of where you will be going. And I can't stress enough the use of tracer rounds, empty a 40 round clip of tracers from an AK at an approaching boat and unless they have a 50 caliber machine gun mounted on the bow they're going to be leaving in a hurry.

The other assumption is that you can spot them before they close in too far. if theyre already aboard a pistol which can always be used as a backup isnt a bad idea, for in cabin shooting frangible ammo could be useful because it will stop a person but not penetrate airplane walls which would be nice in a boat cabin you dont want to turn to swiss cheese. You need to sleep with it at hand and loaded. Small high capacity submachine guns converted to semi auto like an Uzi in 9mm or a Mac 10 in .45 ACP or a Samopal Skorpion which is pistol sized but has a high capacity magazine also and uses smaller .32 acp would be useful for tight quarters defense. Defenses to insure youll wake up like monofilament attached to bells and firecrackers, and tack strips on deck are necessary.

Everything I listed is available without special permits through a gun store ordering from a catalog assuming your from the USA and don't live in a place like the Peoples Republic of California or a few other states. 
I think people have valid reasons for assuming a boat flying a US flag is a poorly chosen target, its nice to know people think we're a bunch of gun toting loonies, I wonder why.


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

The first thing I would suggest is check out the gun laws where you wish to sail. If you know what you are up against then you shouldn't have a problem. Knowledge is key. 

I remember a dude going into a country not knowing the gun laws. He ended up in jail for 6 or 9 months, can't remember the exact amount, had his boat impounded, and fought the legal system. It cost him tens of thousands of dollars. He was from Texas and in his mind he had the right to carry or transport a gun, well that was when he was in Texas. He wasn't aware that Columbia wasn't Texas, and he ended up totally bagged because of ignorance.

Just be respectful of the other countries laws and your should be gold.


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## scottyt (Jul 19, 2008)

here is am idea that would work and be pretty easy to hide

they sell chamber adapters for 12 gauge shotguns that allow you to chamber and fire pistol rounds. we all pretty much have flare pistols that are 12 gauge, but wont fit a regular 12 gaue shell or even hold up if one did fit in it. but a few mins with a lathe and one of these adapters would fit and if you stayed with weaker rounds like 38 special i would bet they would hold up. as the adapter handle all the pressure except the back of the case. now the real problem is they are slow to reload as you have to pull the adapter, push the empty out, put a live shell in, and put it back in the flare gun. but if you carried 2 of these that would allow a pretty quick second shot.

how hard would it be to hide something about 3 inches long and less than an inch in width, plus a few rounds

Shotgun Conversion Adapters By Dina Arms Corp.*|*e-GunParts.com

edit the one i linked to is made of aluminum including the rifling and would probably not hold up to more than 10 or so rounds before the rifling is eroded. but hey fire 2 rounds out of it in a vise with a string for a test, using a round like a mag safe which comes in 6 round packs. then vac seal it with the remaining 4 rounds and hide it. the accuracy may not be great but the mag safe is a great round for a short barrel and is effective

me personally i have found a great spot on my boat for a real pistol. it is a pain to get to, and i know it would not be found. it literally would take me about 5 mins to get to it and require tools, but it would not be found


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

Some on this thread seem to think pointing a flare gun at someone is actually going to stop the person from doing whatever they want. I have to say that given some protective goggles and maybe a tight hat to put my hair under, I might take a shot from a flare gun on a dare.  I just don't think a flare gun is going to do it against actual human beings, though it probably would scare small children away.


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## MSter (Apr 1, 2008)

What about naming your boat in a manner that will promote second thoughts?

1. Armed and Dangerous
2. I Will Shoot You
3. Trigger Finger
4. Ammo to Waste
5. Smith and Wesson
6. etc, etc.....

Or, you can manufacture a bow mounted non-functional one of these when entering questionable waters.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I'm very new to sailing, but I can't imagine doing that or anything else without the means to protect myself and those under my care. It is true that an armed response may have caused a more violent attack but at least the fightwould not have been compleetly one sided


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

These might get your boat searched a bit more thoroughly by customs officials in many countries than you'd rather want to deal with each time... 


MSter said:


> What about naming your boat in a manner that will promote second thoughts?
> 
> 1. Armed and Dangerous
> 2. I Will Shoot You
> ...


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

This question cant be answered.

If someone is going to board your boat with intent to steal/harm etc; you have a choice - fight back and die or let them take your stuff and hopefully live. Who knows what you would do until confronted. Buddy boating may be an answer or keep away from known danger zones. I know you cant take weapons into most countries - arms are taken from you and returned when leaving. A well aimed flare gun can do a lot of damage and scare off crocs (and two legged crocs as well).


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> If someone is going to board your boat with intent to steal/harm etc; you have a choice - fight back and die or let them take your stuff and hopefully live.


Are those the only two outcomes you can see?


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

Your response is interesting. Yes, I do expect there are a mutitude of outcomes - dependant on the situation. Does that answer your question. Should I type slow? If you are in a GRP boat and start shooting at someone with automatic weapons - have a guess at what happens. Whats next - do you carry a grenade thrower - just in case?

Has any one on this thread actually had any experience with undesirables approaching ? It seems there are a lot of egos and ignorance.


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## nonsailor (Oct 8, 2007)

A few years ago, a cruise liner used sound to deter pirates, they could not bear it and left quickly without boarding the ship, it might be possible to rig up something similar using a 1kw amplifier and speaker(s).


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Its immpossible to give one answer that would cover every possible situation. sometimes surrender may be the best option, but I can't immagine not having the ability to fight back if the situation warranted it.


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

i agree - not 'surrender'. Piracy reports are published - there are lawless areas of the world that might be 'pretty' but would you take your family on a yacht to these places. I actually agree you have to be self sufficient and look after your self and your property - but a lot of common sense is missing. Anyway see you later .
DC


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Anna, I am on your side essentially...

But, what you and I need to realise though is that this can be very much a cultural issue.....No matter how impractical it is to cruise(internationally) with firearms and it is extremely impractical, ALOT of North Americans are not ever going to get past their 'right' to defend their vessel. That's just how it goes.

Now we can all debate the differing scenarios and outcomes until we are blue in the face but i reckon we will reach the some non-conclusion that:
*some of time, in some situations carrying arms may be helpful.....*
but then again it could also be reason why you and your family end up dead rather than just missing an outboard and your radio 

What the folk talking about purchasing AK47's do need to know is that anywhere they go where they might actually need them,Indonesia for an example..... its close to Anna and I.... a country where theft and piracy can be an issue in parts....*YOUR FIREARMS WILL BE CONFISCATED UPON ENTRY*......and you will be forced to exit via the same port to pick the damn things up.

Conceal them in those cleverly designed compartments?? 
Please...Ok you could try, but like Simon V and I said earlier on this thread if your the Texan yacht pulling into your entry port in Indonesia proudly flying the stars and stripes you will be searched 5 times more thoroughly than any Australian or European boat. 
At this point the risk of spending 40 years sat in your own excrement in a Indonesian jail cell needs to be weighed up against the *actual* risk of encountering pirates so fearsome you would need semi-automatic weapons.

My philosophy??.... and it is just mine, this is an emotive topic and each to their own I say, i'm certainly not going to tell anyone how they should look after themselves, their boat or their family...my philosophy is that the sea and the weather and being ill equipped present greater threats by and large than piracy. We won't be cruising in real danger areas when we do our 'big' cruise. Some poorer parts of New Guinea and the Solomons are on our map and could be a bit of a concern, so when there we will take care at anchor(where most robberies of vessels occur) and use a couple of little tricks cruising friends have taught us. Other than that we will drink rum, live our lifes and not worry too much about big bad boogey men hiding behind palm trees.

We will probably also keep the flare gun around as a deterrant. If it doesn't work against AK47's well then I guess it is just my time. There are risks in life and definitely in cruising.


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## Talisman66 (Jul 18, 2007)

chall03 said:


> ... and use a couple of little tricks cruising friends have taught us. Other than that we will drink rum, live our lifes and not worry too much about big bad boogey men hiding behind palm trees.


please expand on the "tricks". I'm curious...PM me if not for public pirate eyes.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> Yes, I do expect there are a mutitude of outcomes - dependant on the situation. Does that answer your question. *Should I type slow?*


What's with the attitude?



> If you are in a GRP boat and start shooting at someone with automatic weapons - have a guess at what happens.
> 
> Has any one on this thread actually had any experience with undesirables approaching ? It seems there are a lot of egos and ignorance.


From Noonsite, a first hand account:



> At about 1600 we observed two different boats approaching us head on from the SW. These boats were 25-30 feet long, had higher freeboard and diesel powered. They were coming very fast directly at us. There were 4 men in each boat. The boats separated at about 200 yards, one boat ahead of the other, coming down Mahdi's port side and firing into the cockpit. The other boat was firing an automatic weapon at both Gandalf and Mahdi from ahead, more at Gandalf. These guys were shooting directly at the cockpits, and obviously intended to kill us. The first boat swung around behind Mahdi's stern to come up and board us.
> 
> At that point I, Rod Nowlin aboard Mahdi and armed with a 12 gage shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot, started shooting into their boat. I forced them to keep their heads down so that they could not shoot at us. I am not sure I hit anyone at that point although I could see the driver of the boat crouched down behind a steering console. After firing 3 shots at them their engine started to smoke and I swung around to shoot at the boat ahead. At that point, I saw Jay Barry on Gandalf ram that boat amidships almost cutting it in two and turning it almost completely over. I turned back around to shoot again at the boat behind Mahdi and that is when they turned away from Mahdi and were heading toward the stern of Gandalf. Gandalf was beside us, about 100 feet away. The bow of the pirate's boat came right up against Gandalf's stern and two men stood up on the bow to board Gandalf. That was a serious and probably fateful error on their part. I shot both of them. That boat then veered away and I shot the driver, although I am not sure of the outcome because they were farther away and I did not knock him down like the other two.
> 
> Mahdi and Gandalf kept going at full speed to put as much distance between the pirates and us as possible. As soon as we were out of rifle range we looked back and both boats were drifting and appeared to be disabled.


http://www.noonsite.com/Members/sue/R2009-01-21-5


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

Erps,
I read that article and there are others on noonsite. I think we are arguing the same point. Be prepared - I have had a boat come up fast alongside with scary people on it and they offered us fish and wanted cigs. We were scared and prepared as well. 

But here is the question - do you need to have loaded weapons on board when you go sailing this weekend???


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> But here is the question - do you need to have loaded weapons on board when you go sailing this weekend???
> Reply With Quote


Nope, probably not, and probably won't need my fire extinguishers, spare parts, tool box, life preservers and extra clothing either. Each of us have to make those personal decisions on what we need to carry and each of us will evaluate each item from our own perspective.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hello, I am fairly new to sailing. I am about ready to embark on a blue water sail down the mexican coast to the Papagos and onward to New Zealand and Austrailia with my new husband who is a lot more experienced with sailing. Here is our concern. In reading Pirates aboard.......flare guns don't quite cut it as the have boarded and are in the companion way before you know they are there...the flare gun I would think would cause a fire and you would be in seriuos trouble..either way......so, the spear gun would only nail one..and I would think they have automatics...so how would one protect them selves?


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

Travel in groups and avoid bad areas are probably the two best things you can do.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

You dobn't want to get caught in a country that doesn't allow weapons. Think third world jail, and no rights. I carry where it is legal, but leave them home where it's not......i2f


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

imagine2frolic said:


> You dobn't want to get caught in a country that doesn't allow weapons. Think third world jail, and no rights. I carry where it is legal, but leave them home where it's not......i2f


Yes and no I think.


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## mightyhorton (Dec 3, 2006)

I’m glad that a lot of Americans are going to carry guns in countries where even having a single .22 bullet gets you put straight into prison for a long time. The bad guys knowing there are crazy Americans with guns keeps the rest of the boaters safer. 

Any intelligent discussion about whether to carry guns should be a risk/benefit analysis related to the particular waters and countries in which you plan to cruise. Sailing around Somalia? Load up with some serious long range weapons. For Mexico and most of the Caribbean, for instance, why risk a third world prison and an expensive police shakedown to protect against some extremely improbable occurrence? There are tens of thousands of cruisers around the world and only a couple of nasty incidents a year. In Mexico or most of the Caribbean, if something happens it is the equivalent of getting mugged in your local bar – could happen anywhere but it doesn’t happen to most of us in our own lifetimes. Can those sniffer dogs find weapons in hidden compartments? Does it take 5 or 10 minutes to decide to get the gun out of the secret compartment and 15 minutes to actually get it out?

There is no god given right to carry weapons in any particular country, they each have their own laws. You stick your finger in the eye of a local cop in a second or third world country, you are going down hard. Waving a copy of the US 2nd Amendment at him isn’t going to get you anywhere except maybe the beating will be a little harder and their laughing a little louder.

Either the bad guys have guns or they have fists/knives only. If they have guns and you don’t, well, there you are.

If they have knives, and if you want to fight, it would be nice to have a bigger knife. Most tropical countries allow machetes, which might be two feet long. So carry a couple of weapons grade machined and balanced machetes. If a three or four foot long sword might be legal, you can increase the ante by a foot or two. If the bad guys pull guns and you have a sword you can quickly drop it and hope for the best. A heavy sharp steel sword is a formidable weapon, at least to a knife or machete wielder. If the machete screws onto the end of a stout pole it becomes a longer range weapon. With a wicked sharp blade on the end of a boat pole facing them and knowing the crew was fighting for their lives, maybe the Rio Dulce guys would have kept coming, maybe not. How about some weapons grade throwing knives? Fun to practice, and deadly.

So, should you carry a gun? Well, where are you going to be cruising and what are the risks and benefits? Should you carry machetes? Why not – they are legal, and formidable if you are facing knife guys. You don’t have to pull them out, but you could if you decided to.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

mightyhorton said:


> There is no god given right to carry weapons in any particular country, they each have their own laws.


I disagree. I think there absolutely is a God given right to defend yourself, every animal large and small defends itself to the best of its ability when it is attacked. The question you are answering is not whether we have the natural right to defend ourselves, but instead whether it is worth the risk of punishment.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

wind_magic said:


> I disagree. I think there absolutely is a God given right to defend yourself, every animal large and small defends itself to the best of its ability when it is attacked. The question you are answering is not whether we have the natural right to defend ourselves, but instead whether it is worth the risk of punishment.


Mightyhorton clearly wasn't talking about your philosophical 'natural right' or whatever, he was talking about the law. Not matter what your view is you do not have a god given *LEGAL* right to defend yourself in any particular country.

You are basically saying stuff respecting the customs and rules of the places you visit, just carry on and pack your guns folks, cause Its a God given right as an American to sail into someone else's country uninvited carrying unwelcome weapons.

Do what you want in your country wind_magic, but if you do sail into OZ let me and my country assert our God-Given right to decide that *we do not want people we don't know or trust wondering around with semi automatic weapons. * If you don't like it then fine, keep on sailing right past


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

chall03 said:


> Mightyhorton clearly wasn't talking about your philosophical 'natural right' or whatever, he was talking about the law. Not matter what your view is you do not have a god given *LEGAL* right to defend yourself in any particular country.


Wow, dripping with disdain, I like it. 

And yes, I was talking about the law too. Some things transcend man's law, the right to defend yourself is one of them.



> You are basically saying stuff respecting the customs and rules of the places you visit, just carry on and pack your guns folks, cause Its a God given right as an American to sail into someone else's country uninvited carrying unwelcome weapons.
> 
> Do what you want in your country wind_magic, but if you do sail into OZ let me and my country assert our God-Given right to decide that *we do not want people we don't know or trust wondering around with semi automatic weapons. * If you don't like it then fine, keep on sailing right past


Do you feel better yet ? 

Like I said, every person has the right to defend themselves, you are talking about punishment. Everything you just said is about punishment, you'll show that American wind_magic what's what for showing up with a gun boogedy boogedy boogedy.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> Mightyhorton clearly wasn't talking about your philosophical 'natural right' or whatever, he was talking about the law. Not matter what your view is you do not have a god given LEGAL right to defend yourself in any particular country.


True enough. Some countries regulate their citizen's ability to travel freely, to worship freely and to speak freely as well.

Australia's internet censor bares its gums


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

erps - why do you call yourself 'puddin head' ??


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> erps - why do you call yourself 'puddin head' ??


My dad used to call me that. I'm pretty sure it was a term of endearment rather than a description, but who knows.


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

I saw the pic - who knows?


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

wind_magic said:


> Wow, dripping with disdain, I like it.
> 
> And yes, I was talking about the law too. Some things transcend man's law, the right to defend yourself is one of them.
> 
> ...


'Dripping with disdain'?? 'about Punishment'?? and 'Boogedy Boogedy'??

You have read things into my post that were not there.

This is not personal, so lets back off on the sarcasm and condenscension, and talk about this like grown up people 

I just can't agree with your stance that you have a right to enter my country bearing arms with no regard for our laws and desires that state strongly that we would prefer you didn't.



erps said:


> True enough. Some countries regulate their citizen's ability to travel freely, to worship freely and to speak freely as well.
> 
> Australia's internet censor bares its gums


erps that piece of legislation has luckily not been passed here and hopefully won't. Alot of countries have a lot of laws that do alot of things. In general my advice would be as above, if you can't abide by the laws and customs of a country then don't go there.


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

There are always a lot of American yachts cruising up the coast each year. Usually very nice people, too friendly - always asking us (ozzies) over for morn tea/ lunch/ sundowers etc. The texans and californians know their mexican food!! 

One memorable evening was a beach barbecue with Americans, french, canadians, english, kiwis and us. I was the 'odd australian'. No weapons on any boat from this crowd.

I have met many yanks, and the question of whether they are armed doesn't often come up but most say they are not armed. 

They often, however, are not overly educated about Australian laws/ conditions / culture and will run away from a dingo sighting for example ( but not to the gun case for protection). 

Underneath it all, 'real' cruisers are very similar and it doesn't matter if you believe it is your 'god given right' to 'arm bears' (sorry couldnt help it), by the time you have done the 'milk run' you will be a cruiser, not a yank or an ozzie.


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## lancelot9898 (Dec 30, 2008)

wind_magic said:


> I disagree. I think there absolutely is a God given right to defend yourself, every animal large and small defends itself to the best of its ability when it is attacked. The question you are answering is not whether we have the natural right to defend ourselves, but instead whether it is worth the risk of punishment.


Well said Wind Magic!


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> I just can't agree with your stance that you have a right to enter my country bearing arms with no regard for our laws and desires that state strongly that we would prefer you didn't.


According to Noonsite, it's perfectly legal to sail into your country bearing arms. That's evidence that your country recognizes the right to bear arms or incoming sailors would be arrested on the spot. Sailors just have to be aware that Australia restricts that right.



> Firearms must be declared on entry. All military-type firearms (greater than .22), machine guns, pistols, revolvers, ammunition, as well as flick knives and knuckledusters are prohibited imports, and will be sealed on board or taken into custody at the first port of entry. Arrangements can be made to transport them to the port of departure if sufficient notice is given of that port and the date of departure.


http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Australia/?rc=Formalities#Restrictions


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I use guns. IN fact, just last week we went out on the back 30 with an entire case of clay pidgeons (some call it skeet) and did our best to miss them!!!

But I simply cannot understand anyone who says that their rights in this country should allow them to take those same rights to another country. It is a simply matter of respect. If you don't like it, don't go there. If carrying a sawed-off 20ga is neccessary for you to feel secure, then limit your cruising to countries that allow you to pack. Personally, I have a 12 ga flare gun and a 25mm flare gun that would do a lot of damage. I keep them beside my bed. But in 15 years, I have never once felt the need to pull them close. Others have been places that I have not and I can understand that there are areas where you might want it close. Quite candidily, I will just avoid those areas. I have kids and to be honest, I go sailing to get closer to nature and enjoy the other cultures and people. Part of that culture is how they manage themselves without citizens bearing firearms. The idea is certainly foreign to me (being from East Texas where we really do have gun racks in our trucks... this is not an exhaggeration). However, I respect them for their thoughts and ideas. 

I am not anti-guns. I am not a card carrying member of the NRA. Guns are simply a reality of where I live and although we have fun with them (like last weekend), we have also had our fill of coyotes, moccasin, wild boar, etc that are a danger to both cattle, horses, person, and property. So we use weapons because we have to. I don't see that need when transversing to other nations where they have laws (whethere I agree with them or not) that prohibit such weapons. It is a simple matter of respect.

Let me tell you another story, my friends: you do NOT have the right to bear any arm. How many of you have a Bazooka or an automatic M-16, or a SAM? Even in the US, the US limits your weapons, or has that reality not entered into the conversation here and elsewhere? I have seen the realities. I was at Baylor when the Branch Davidians burnt themselves down. Kris and I saw the smoke, the ATF everywhere, the cameras. Now correct me if I am wrong as it has been many years, but wan't the issue that they were possessing arms that were considered illegal to have in the US? Hmmm... but is that ok? I certainly don't want some bunch of screwballs owning automatic weapons around me!!!

So even here we limit the arms a person can carry. What makes that any different from other countries limiting the arms? And for those that feel that a person's right to bear arms here should follow them everywhere they go, then that argument should be played both ways: A Somalian should be able to bring his SAM into our country. An Afgan should be able to bring in his AK's and plastic explosives here. Because if you say we, as Americans should be able to take our laws everywhere with us, no matter the country, then also should the same rights granted other members of other countries be allowed here. Anyone want a group of Somalians sitting outside an airport with a pack of SAM's??? Not me. But to say we can do one thing and they cannot is hypocrisy.

This is a simple matter of respect: respect for your neighbors and their way of life. Respect.

My opinions only.

Brian


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

> even here we limit the arms a person can carry. What makes that any different from other countries limiting the arms? And for those that feel that a person's right to bear arms here should follow them everywhere they go, then that argument should be played both ways


You still have to ask yourself why the founders felt it was so important for Americans to bear arms and isn't limiting the kind of arms we can bear, counter to why we have that right in the first place?


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## St Anna (Mar 15, 2003)

Finally. Thanks CD. I am glad someone 'got it'!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Freesail99 said:


> You still have to ask yourself why the founders felt it was so important for Americans to bear arms and isn't limiting the kind of arms we can bear, counter to why we have that right in the first place?


A different debate, perhaps, but the days of the ordinary citizen bearing arms to protect himself from his government are long since over. You, right this second, could be killed and you would never even know what hit you. In fact, should they so wish, the governmemnt of the US could watch everything you are doing from space. They have unmanned droids that could target you and you would not even see them and certainly would have no chance to fight back. The list goes on.

And I will tell you this: I consider myself an above average marksman (contrary to what the skeet says!!!!). I can dove and quail hunt (the latter being the most difficult) with the best of them. Give me a 4-10, and I can do a number on a squirell (especially with some dogs). But come on... me against anyone in the military, a trained soldier, a trained killer??? Give me a break. I wouldn't stand a chance. Neither would 99.99999% of the people out there. I don't care how many points you got on that buck last week.

SO why do we bear arms? Well, I am sure everyone has their own answer. Personally, for me, I bear arms for protection of person and property. I do live on a fair piece of land. However, I always carried them in the city too (not on me, always in the house). I am not opposed to a citizen bearing arms. In fact, quite the contrary. Responsible use of firearms not only keeps the person safe, but those under their protection. Such a concept seems to be difficult for those who live without firearms to understand. I wonder how many of them own a ranch? I wonder how many of them have been hunting for food? I wonder how many of them have been raised, and raised their kids, on the proper use of firearms and protection. In fact, it surprises me that so many from Australia do not bear firearms. They have sprawling ranches there and they certinaly have issues with wild animals too. I would think they don't just use harsh language and rocks???

So whatever anyone here reads, do not discount my beliefs that we, as US Citizens, in the US, should bear arms. Like the most arduent member of the NRA, I would stand and fight against anyone who tried to take them. It is our right, it is our country, it is our consititution, it is our law. And if you don't like it, there's the next plane out just waiting for you.

But when I leave these borders, I become a guest in another man's house. If he doesn't want me walking on his lawn, I will walk on the sidewalk. If he doesn't want me wearing my shoes in his house, I will take them off at the door. If he does not want a woman to show her face but through a scarf, then Kris will wear a Burka. And if he does not want guns on his property, they are left at home in the closet. It is a simple matter of respect for another man's house. If I cannot abide by his rules, I do not go to his house. He may come to mine, but then he had better darned good and well mind MY rules.

Brian


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

erps said:


> According to Noonsite, it's perfectly legal to sail into your country bearing arms. That's evidence that your country recognizes the right to bear arms or incoming sailors would be arrested on the spot. Sailors just have to be aware that Australia restricts that right.
> 
> http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Australia/?rc=Formalities#Restrictions


Absolutely right erps. Be aware that the info on noonsite may soon be outdated as I am lead to believe this is under review.

I was objecting more to the extreme view that someone had a 'god given right' to enter OZ or anywhere for that matter bearing whatever arms as they please.

I actually have no problem with Cruisers who choose to be armed, I believe it is a very individual decision. I as an individual wouldn't be armed, but thats only me.

CD well said. You ask some interesting questions of us aussies and raise very some good points. 
Like I said above this is very cultural issue and as such is fascinating because there is such a difference between the US and OZ.

Down here we never talk about the right to bear arms at all. We do have very restrictive gun laws that allow firearms essentially only for sport and hunting. Even then it is very tightly controlled. 
I will be totally honest here, I am an australian city boy and have never fired a gun in my life. 90% of my friends would of never seen a gun in there life. I don't know anyone who owns a firearm other than my Father in law who is a farmer on the land with a rifle that is licensed and used to cull kangaroos predominantly. So yeah CD the situation on the land is a bit different than my story, but still when my Father in law and brothers in law go hunting more often than not they tend to use crossbows. Im not actually sure why...

Now honestly?? When I was dating Josie, the first time I saw her Dad's rifle I nearly shat myself......because you are absolutely right CD I wasn't raised on the proper use of firearms and protection at all. Guns are totally foreign to me. Maybe that is wrong and naive, i'm not sure because I have never known anything different.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

chall03 said:


> I was objecting more to the extreme view that someone had a 'god given right' to enter OZ or anywhere for that matter bearing whatever arms as they please.


I feel yours is the extreme view.

You've also taken what I wrote out of context and changed the meaning.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

wind_magic said:


> I feel yours is the extreme view.
> 
> You've also taken what I wrote out of context and changed the meaning.


Please explain then what you mean't?


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> Please explain then what you mean't?


Chall03, I hope Windy answers you directly, but I think this is the relative point he was making:



> The question you are answering is not whether we have the natural right to defend ourselves, but instead whether it is worth the risk of punishment.


The way I interpreted that is that sometimes, the law is not right. Take for instance the case of Mr. Martin in England. His house had been burglarized several times and he ended up in a situation where he shot an intruder in his home. England put him in jail for that. The right to self defense is an instinct among animals. Although they taught us in grade school that humans don't have instincts, the urge to preserve ones life is very strong. A person put into a life/death situation will do what they have to do to survive it. That a government would penalize a person for doing so may be legal, but it doesn't make it right.

Here in the states, self defense was recognized as a pre-existing natural right before our federal government existed. That right does not come from the government, our government just codified preserving it. Imagine what it was like in Australia before your government was formed. Did the natives have a right to self defense? If so, where did it come from? Did that right disappear when the immigrants formed a government?

In the interest of disclosure, I've been in law enforcement for 24 years now and I'm a firearms instructor. I didn't have firearms in the house until I got into law enforcement. It didn't take long on the job to realize that each citizen is responsible for their own protection. My wife has a concealed carry license and carries almost all the time.

A quick question for you, why do your law enforcement officers carry guns? It's to protect themselves isn't it. Is their life more valuable than any other citizen in Australia? That citizens choose not to take responsibility for their own defense is fine by me. That a government would deny their citizens the means to defend themselves is outrageous IMO, an I'm not singling out your country, as there are a lot of world governments who do not trust their citizens with firearms. I'm just glad the U.S. isn't one of them yet.

Best wishes.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Thanks for the response erps.

I took both of Windy's posts up above to mean just what I was suggesting.........that he feels he has the right to enter a country such as OZ armed as he sees fit.... 

When it comes to a debate on the right to bear arms in general, I don't actually disagree with you necessarily, I guess I just don't know what I think yet. You are right here it is illegal to carry a firearm to defend yourself. Period. 

I guess I worry about the practical ramifications of all of this, yes in theory it is great to say everyone has the right to carry firearms to defend themselves but how do you reconcile the fact that this means everyone is carrying firearms including the idiots and that statistics show that because of this you have alot of gun related violence?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

This thread is very interesting to me. I am new to sailing, and had never thought about he problems related to being armed when cruising. I am a former Marine, and self defence insructor. I havn't been out of arms reach of at least one firearm at any time in the past 16 years. I have carried leagaly in Mexico and Belize, and just assumed simalar arrangements could be made everywhere. Has anyone on here tried?


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

chall03 said:


> Please explain then what you mean't?


Chall03's post says a lot of what I meant.

The core of what I mean is that there is a natural order to things beyond what mankind codifies into law - call it natural law if you want, with natural justice, but whatever you call it, it doesn't come from man himself, it instead comes from man's basic situation in this world.

You could make a law that people can't breath air if you want to, but people will breath, so all you are doing is creating criminals where there were none. The threat of punishment will not cause people to stop breathing air because the dangers of not breathing are greater than the punishment for breaking the law. People will also defend themselves if attacked, you might not like it, but that's just how it is.

People throw off oppressive governments, they fight apartheid, they stand in front of tanks, break chains, knock down walls, etc, not because the law allows it, but because it is the right thing to do.

Natural law is not to be judged by the whims of the day, it is instead the measuring stick by which all of man's laws are to be judged. Natural law is the people's law, every single person's law, every single person's right by virtue of being a human being on the earth. As the founders of the United States wrote ...



> We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


Natural law doesn't go away just because you are in Australia.

If you put someone in jail using laws that are contrary to natural law, who is the real criminal ?


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

I do understand your point. 
I think on this though we may just have to agree to disagree.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> I have carried leagaly in Mexico and Belize, and just assumed simalar arrangements could be made everywhere. Has anyone on here tried?


Cruisers have successfully traveled the world with firearms but in many countries they have to be turned over to the government during your visit. A good reference is noonsite.com, which lists the requirements by country. Some cruisers decide that it's just not worth it, depending on their cruising itinerary.


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

I would take our Remington shotgun that holds 7 rounds and saw it off. If someone came on board, such as a pirate, I'd cut him in half with it.

Read this.

Sailor feared dead after pirate attack


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

lostappilation said:


> This thread is very interesting to me. I am new to sailing, and had never thought about he problems related to being armed when cruising. I am a former Marine, and self defence insructor. I havn't been out of arms reach of at least one firearm at any time in the past 16 years. I have carried leagaly in Mexico and Belize, and just assumed simalar arrangements could be made everywhere. Has anyone on here tried?


I am wondering how you got a permit to cruise Mexico legally with a weapon ? When I applied to carry arms they turned me down. If you have a hunting permit, a specific area for a specific animal, and who your guide would be was the requirements in 93. This was from the consulate in San Diego......i2f


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> A different debate, perhaps, but the days of the ordinary citizen bearing arms to protect himself from his government are long since over. You, right this second, could be killed and you would never even know what hit you. In fact, should they so wish, the governmemnt of the US could watch everything you are doing from space. They have unmanned droids that could target you and you would not even see them and certainly would have no chance to fight back. The list goes on.
> 
> And I will tell you this: I consider myself an above average marksman (contrary to what the skeet says!!!!). I can dove and quail hunt (the latter being the most difficult) with the best of them. Give me a 4-10, and I can do a number on a squirell (especially with some dogs). But come on... me against anyone in the military, a trained soldier, a trained killer??? Give me a break. I wouldn't stand a chance. Neither would 99.99999% of the people out there. I don't care how many points you got on that buck last week.
> 
> ...


Very well thought out response to what I said, thanks CD.


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

SimonV said:


> I know this is an old tread, but the biggest deterant you yanks have is your flag. Everybody thinks your boats are floating gun carriers.


Replying to an old post on an even older thread:

Does that mean that Americans can expect intrusive strip-searches in every foreign port?

I know the Canadians are pretty anal about guns; When we went north they asked if we had any guns aboard. "No" I said. Then they asked if we had ever had guns aboard. When I said yes, they asked for a detailed list and what I had done with them. When I told them I had left them with a friend, they asked for his phone number. Then they had me wait while they called him and verified exactly what I had left with him. They did not bother to search however.


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

Being a Canadian I don't feel the need to carry a gun and I don't think anyone else should have one either. Since I was raised on a farm we had many rifles to use to kill unwanted animals, these are the intruders. We still have the rifles stored safely away.

Last year the murder stats came out for Toronto, a city of over 3 million people. 96 murders, over 90 of them were directly related to drug dealers, gun runners and just plain old criminals. If the GTA is included, total of 5.7 million people, then the total 116 murders. Leaving only a handful of murders that were not criminal related. So, basically if you weren't in a gang or dealing drugs/guns you won't get murdered.

Hand guns should be banned, period. Nobody has the right to own one. Many laws and regulations were written by people that weren't very sophisticated and in a very unsophisticated time frame. Time changes, environment changes, so must the rules.

Yeah NRA has the constitution rights thing down pat, but it doesn't matter. Look at the murder and crime in the USA, it's directly related to the access to guns. Now, the fact that the citizens in the US live in fear, the gun ownership issue will never be ruled out. 

It's so nice living in a city where I don't have to lock my house, and my car outside now isn't locked. Inside is my iPOD and other things of value, but the car isn't locked and probably never will be. My wife and son can go for walks at anytime during the day, and not worry, either do I for them.

It's nice being safe, and not living in fear.


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## vega1860 (Dec 18, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> But I simply cannot understand anyone who says that their rights in this country should allow them to take those same rights to another country. It is a simply matter of respect.


Nothing more embarrassing than watching someone screaming "But I'm an American, I'm an American!" while being dragged away by the local police.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> Look at the murder and crime in the USA, it's directly related to the access to guns.


That's not true. Washington D.C., strict gun control with high murder rate. Montana, N.Dakota, Wyoming with guns in the back of trucks a common sight, low murder rate.


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

Oh yeah, I've seen it first hand and had to tell the husband of the woman to shut her up.

We were in Jamaica, and our bus was pulled over by the 4 local police doing a check. The bus driver told us all to be calm and relax, and NOT to say a word. This woman from Texas stands up and shouts "They can't do this, I'm an American citizen!" Her husband right beside me, feeling a bit anxious because he would be the one defending his moronic loud mouth wife.

In a different country this woman could have been killed just for announcing that fact.


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

erps said:


> That's not true. Washington D.C., strict gun control with high murder rate. Montana, N.Dakota, Wyoming with guns in the back of trucks a common sight, low murder rate.


Sorry dude, stats don't paint the same picture.

Toronto over 3 million less than 100 murdered
Detroit about the same size over 700 murdered
New Orleans higher
New Jersey the same.

Access to guns, equates to higher murder.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

I'll see if I can find it again, but the study compared states with their nieghboring province and the statistics were very similar. It was our big cities with drug problems that run our statistics off the chart.


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

City Population Murders per 100,000 people

1 New Orleans 475,128 52.3/100k
2 Washington, D.C. 563,384 43.9/100k
3 Detroit 927,766 41.8/100k
4 Baltimore 671,028 38.7/100k
5 Atlanta 435,494 34.0/100k
6 St. Louis 340,256 32.5/100k
7 Birmingham 244,972 30.3/100k
8 Newark, NJ 279,269 28.2/100k

Toronto 3,500,000+ 1.7/100k


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

The murder rate in the USA is approximatel 10 times that of a similar city sized in Canada, and it's directly related to access to guns, and the culture in general.

This is a non-issue, not something to debate. Our city is over 100k people and we haven't had a murder in 4 or 5 years. I think some woman killed her husband too, he was cheating, she was drunk.

Chicago is about 3 million people, they have a murder rate of 23 per 100k vs 1.7 for Toronto of over 3.5 million. Wild stats.


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

> The murder rate in the USA is approximately 10 times that of a similar city sized in Canada


And LA and New York have almost the population of Canada, your point?


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

Gun death rates by state, includes suicides:



> #1 District of Columbia: 31.2
> #2 Alaska: 20
> #3 Louisiana: 19.5
> #4 Wyoming: 18.8
> ...


Hey Greg, you said you were in the military. What was the murder rate among soldiers, where everyone had access to weapons?

StateMaster - Firearms Death Rate per 100,000 (most recent) by state


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

Here's a pretty clear stat. Access to guns is a real positive thing.

More preschoolers died from guns in 1994 than police officers in the line of duty.

107 preschoolers lost their lives to firearms ( homicides AND accidents) in 1994.

Every day, 15 American children are killed with guns.

U.S children are 12 times more likely to die by gunfire than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined.

I just hope none of you are connected to any of these stats.


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

Freesail99 said:


> And LA and New York have almost the population of Canada, your point?


You don't get the point?

Did you know it's safer to live in Yemen than the USA? India as well. We would never travel to Dominica due to it's crime rate, but it's a safer place to live than the USA.

It's also safer to live in Iran, which is amazing to think about.

So I guess the point is, there's a gun problem in the USA.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> So I guess the point is, there's a gun problem in the USA.


There's a criminal problem in the USA.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You sure do have alot of time on your hands.......and where exactly do you get this info..I would be interested in finding these facts out.....if they are actual or not.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

SailorGregS said:


> You don't get the point?
> 
> Did you know it's safer to live in Yemen than the USA? India as well. We would never travel to Dominica due to it's crime rate, but it's a safer place to live than the USA.
> 
> ...


This is BS. There are a LOT of countries that are more dangerous than the United States, we aren't anywhere near the top of the list. Get over it. If I had any desire to argue about it I'd drag out the numbers for you but it has all been said and done before, you aren't going to change your opinion (and that's what it is), so why bother.

"In God we trust, all others bring data" - Dr. W. Edwards Deming 1900-1993, American Statistician

Here's a link to get you started Wikipedia

One other interesting statistic rarely mentioned in the gun control debate is that in countries with low murder rates the suicide rates go up much more than the murder rates go down leaving you with more dead people in the end, an odd coincidence at best. Yes, even in your wonderful Canada more people kill themselves than in the United States per capita and Japan is near the top of the list, a country with one of the lowest per capita murder rates in the world. France, New Zealand, Switzerland, Sweden ... all really dangerous places to live if you look at suicide rates.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Also, I am proud to be an American. And those of you who feel we are such a terrible country...stay out!!!!! We do have alot of crime....we have alot of poverty....but.... I am glad we have the right to bear arms. I live in an area where the Illegals are frequently coming through......I like knowing I can protect myself if need be. But, I hate to see people who have served in the military attacked for doing their duty. It isn't concidered murder Mr erps.... I am free because men and women faught for that right....which means killing another human. This isn't their choice..it's a matter of survival.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hoooray for you wind-magic!!!!!! God bless!


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> But, I hate to see people who have served in the military attacked for doing their duty. It isn't concidered murder Mr erps.... I am free because men and women faught for that right....which means killing another human.


I agree with you and I think you misunderstood my point. Sailorgreg was saying the availablity to weapons increases murder rates. I was trying to demonstrate, that in a police station, or an army post where everyone is armed, the murder rate is low. If greg's assertion was true. Police stations would be the most dangerous places on the earth. BTW, I served four years in the army.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Awwww gotchya...good point!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

So how are the tulip fields looking Mr erp....I miss it up there.. I lived in Oak Harbor....drove through the area with tulips everday on my way to work in Stanwood.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

The daffodils are just about ready to sprout. The tulips should be along in another couple of weeks. Yes it's beautiful up here. I always thought it strange that when there were hungry people in the world, we grow flowers here. The farmers need to pay the bills though.


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

Based upon that analogy, then, the most dangerous place to work is at a car lot. Since cars are a major cause of death in ANY country, the car sales man has the most hazardous job. Or maybe working in the hospital is even more dangerous because people die there. 

Your example of police and military is so childish, come on, you have to have clear data to back up such juvenile statements. Please don't take that job on the car lot, though.

We are talking about murder and gun related crimes, where the USA is at a minimum 10 times more dangerous than Canada. And is more dangerous to there than Yeman, Dominica, and Iran. 

I think the bottom line with crime and guns in the USA is fear.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I'm thinking you are talking out of you hiney. If America is so terrible and firghtening how come there are so damn many Canadians here?


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

Greg, I agree that we have more criminal conduct here than Canada. That's especially the case in our big cities. It's the people though, not the instrument they use to harm each other.

Take your own situation. You say you like to fight and drink. It's probably best that you not own guns.


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

Hey erps you got me there man.

International crimes stats are kept for a reason, and one of them is form public and domestic policy. Those policies are wide ranging and one is gun control, crime, and deterrence. The crime rate in the USA is incredibly high for many reasons, one of which is the access to guns, the individuals right to have the gun, moral decay, stress and poverty to name a few.

Easy access to hand guns and assault rifles is a huge problem, huge. When a kid get's wacked out on meth., takes his hads AK47 and strides into his school the result is international.

The murder per capita based upon 100k people is a glaring number, especially when it's compared to Canada. Our societies are very similar, we are considered cousins for a reason. But the crime/murder rate between the two countries is absolutely astonishing.

How do you explain the fact that our similar societies have polar opposite crime rates?


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

Heres' a list of the worst cities in the world for crime.

Caracas, Venezuela

Population: 3.2 million

Murder rate: 130 per 100,000 residents (official) 

Cape Town, South Africa

Population: 3.5 million

Murder rate: 62 per 100,000 inhabitants 

New Orleans, United States

Population: 220,614 to 312,000 (2007); estimates vary due to displacement of people after Hurricane Katrina in 2005.

Murder rate: Estimates range from 67 (New Orleans Police Department) to 95 (Federal Bureau of Investigation) per 100,000


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

The Chicago Tribune Nov. 2, 1995 reports: "Although drugs and violent crime often are linked in America, the violent crime rate in the Netherlands is far lower than in the U.S., despite the Netherlands' more liberal drug policies. There were 1.9 homicides in Holland per 100,000 people in 1993. The U.S. rate was 9.5 homicides per 100,000." Emphasis added.

A 1994 Sentencing Project report states: "Rates of assault and murder with firearms are far higher in the US than in comparable nations, with murder rates in the US generally five to ten times the rate of most European nations."


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

SailorGregS said:


> Based upon that analogy, then, the most dangerous place to work is at a car lot. Since cars are a major cause of death in ANY country, the car sales man has the most hazardous job. Or maybe working in the hospital is even more dangerous because people die there.
> 
> Your example of police and military is so childish, come on, you have to have clear data to back up such juvenile statements. Please don't take that job on the car lot, though.
> 
> ...


I dissagree with that assessment. First of all, any statistics from another country that has governments such as Yemen and Iran, who have repeatedly and consistently lied to everyone including their own people, hold NO weight in a mature discussion amongst adults. That you would even bring them up is a matter of some concern.

That Canada has managed to survive so well without weapons is great. I wish you the upmost success in continuing as such. I guess it does surprise me that you have spent time in the military (I asume they let you have a gun) and time on a ranch (I assume you used a gun), and yet you put so little faith in the weapon and not the person. People kill people, not guns.

Would there be fewer deaths in the US without guns. I certainly believe so. Many of these deaths are simply because of accidents. THough accidents can happen to any weapons expert, in general these are things that happen due to people being poorly educated in the proper use and handling of firearms. I also give much of that to parents with careless habits - like keeping the bolt in a .22, or the shells in shotgun, etc.

The question you must ask yourself is how many deaths there would be had there been no guns. Would the number be less? Likely- but likely not so many as your argument suggests.

Instead of asking yourself if guns kill people, ask yourself why the person pulled the trigger in the first place. That is the more important discussion.

- CD


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> How do you explain the fact that our similar societies have polar opposite crime rates?


A couple of reasons. We have a more diverse population and a drug problem. Our freedoms give many the opportunity to make bad choices. We severely limit our police which gets in the way of efficient law enforcement. In our big cities, no one knows their neighbors, thus they don't look out for each other.

I predict Canada will see an increase in crime as your population changes in demographics and in density. Small town Canada and America will continue to do fine.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

erps said:


> A couple of reasons. We have a more diverse population and a drug problem. Our freedoms give many the opportunity to make bad choices. We severely limit our police which gets in the way of efficient law enforcement. In our big cities, no one knows their neighbors, thus they don't look out for each other.
> 
> I predict Canada will see an increase in crime as your population changes in demographics and in density. Small town Canada and America will continue to do fine.


I bet the majority of the trucks in my little East Texas town either carry weapons or certainly have them in their home. I would guess that our population of person:gun WAY outweighs that of most of the world... maybe even Afghanistan!!! Yet - no murders here. Not one. I leave my door unlocked too.

- CD


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

All of the data proves you are incorrect. 

Remember, the murder rate is based upon murders per capita, it has nothing to do with the size of the country. Plus, gun ownership per house hold in Canada is almost the same as the USA. The difference is, our gun control laws are strict and hand gun ownership is almost totally illegal, and soon will be.

Stats for murder rates are done by independent agencies, and there's more than one reference there are thousands. The results come out the same, if you wish to ignore them that's entirely up to you.

Guns allow people to kill other people without getting messy, and allows it to be done easily.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> I bet the majority of the trucks in my little East Texas town either carry weapons or certainly have them in their home. I would guess that our population of person:gun WAY outweighs that of most of the world... maybe even Afghanistan!!! Yet - no murders here. Not one. I leave my door unlocked too.


Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. Switzerland is another example of a high firearm ownship rate and a low firearm crime rate. It's the number criminals in a population that determines the amount of crime.

Greg, I'm out of this conversation to see who can pee higher on the fence, as we got away from the cruising issue.


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

Yeah me to, it's old news anyway.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Greg, I have no clue why you are trying to nail America to the cross. We, like other countries have our issues. Canada is not exempt. But, we at least keep trying to improve our country. Maybe you should divert your energy to repainting your boat. With your enthusiasm you could probably have it done in 2 days. Maybe you should plan your visits in other countries and let America be.


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Jaqueline, I don't think he's trying to nail the US to a cross. It's just that non-Americans can't get their head around your love affair with guns and absurdly high murder rate. It's something Canadians really can't understand about our neighbour to the south. Carrying guns is a non-issue for most other nationalities as they simply don't have them or think about carrying them. See how many Europeans own guns for example. One can't deny, however, that all those guns contribute to violent, unnecessary deaths in the US.


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

JacquelineHaden said:


> Greg, I have no clue why you are trying to nail America to the cross. We, like other countries have our issues. Canada is not exempt. But, we at least keep trying to improve our country. Maybe you should divert your energy to repainting your boat. With your enthusiasm you could probably have it done in 2 days. Maybe you should plan your visits in other countries and let America be.


Maybe you should stop preaching. Sheeze, what week is it in the month right now?


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

More murders in U.S than any other country: 22,909 in US, 19,590 in China, and 14,703 in Russia.

Failure to prosecute adultery in the US led to a ten fold increase in the US murder rate in the 20th Century.

Washington, DC's murder rate was SIXTEEN times higher than Zimbabwe and Zambia.

All of this points to the reason's why you don't need to be armed when cruising.


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

Plus, I'm out of this conversation. It's off topic and the facts are out there if you really need to study them.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> Washington, DC's murder rate was SIXTEEN times higher than Zimbabwe and Zambia.
> 
> All of this points to the reason's why you don't need to be armed when cruising.


but earlier you said:



> I would take our Remington shotgun that holds 7 rounds and saw it off. If someone came on board, such as a pirate, I'd cut him in half with it.
> 
> Read this.
> 
> Sailor feared dead after pirate attack


It's confusing when you change your position before the day is half over.


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

Yeah, I love those emotional responses after reading something tragic. I should have added that the Remington would be loaded with slugs.

Still don't like guns.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

So, guess my question is Greg....would you defend yourself to the death if someone were boarding your boat to do you harm or steal from you? If so, murder is murder...self defense is self defense..no matter what the weapon. I just want to be sure and win...a gun seems to have the upper hand. And survival at that point is what it's about.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Oh...I think the original question.. I had placed was...without a gun, how do you protect yourself? I realize when sailing in foreign waters....guns are prohibited..so, what are ways to protect one's self? I have read some horrible stories of pirates..actually they are poor farmers/fishermen but can be brutal.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

copacabana said:


> Jaqueline, I don't think he's trying to nail the US to a cross. It's just that non-Americans can't get their head around your love affair with guns and absurdly high murder rate.


That's kind of like the pot calling the kettle black.



> Brazil's murder rate is more than four times higher than that of the U.S. Rates for other crimes are similarly high. The majority of crimes are not solved. There were several reported rapes against American citizens in 2006.


Brazil


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

JacquelineHaden said:


> Oh...I think the original question.. I had placed was...without a gun, how do you protect yourself? I realize when sailing in foreign waters....guns are prohibited..so, what are ways to protect one's self? I have read some horrible stories of pirates..actually they are poor farmers/fishermen but can be brutal.


I would ask you to ask some cruisers traveling the world right now if they have guns on board. And ask the why or why not questions to them. They are truly the only people who can provide the reason's you should or should not.

My guess is, that very few world cruisers carry guns.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

JacquelineHaden said:


> Oh...I think the original question.. I had placed was...without a gun, how do you protect yourself? I realize when sailing in foreign waters....guns are prohibited..so, what are ways to protect one's self? I have read some horrible stories of pirates..actually they are poor farmers/fishermen but can be brutal.


Jacqueline,

I would buddy boat and do my research and stay away from problem areas. I would lock all my stuff up so thieves will pick an easier target. If robbers got in the boat, I would leave out some sacrificial money and hide well other valuables. I would not flash cash in town.

Here is a website by a Canadian who survived two major incidents and has other recommendations.

TPIRACY CRUISING CANADA canadian boating,cruising navigation harbors


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thank you. I have no intention of taking a gun..just, this is my first time on a blue water cruise...I keep reading horrifying stories of piracy..So, advice is what I am looking for. Thank you Ray. I am hoping we can buddy boat..but, am worrying if we can't and how to protect the boat. We aren't wealthy by any means..and our boat is small. Hopefully that will deter any pirates. Again, thank you for the interesting chat...have to admit the ole' feathers got ruffled by some people's remarks..but, after weeding out the crap...I think I've gotten some good help. Again, thank you


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Erps, I don't see how living in Brazil has any bearing on the validity of my comments. I happen to be a Canadian, but I've lived abroad, in different countries, for almost 20 years. Also, I was comparing the US to other countries of similar degrees of wealth, like Canada and Europe, not Brazil. I'm well aware of the (mostly urban) organized crime problem here. I don't know why Americans go on the defensive every time someone brings up the fact that they have a very high violent crime rate. It's an anomoly in the developed world. Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders and most Europeans live in very safe countries compared to the US. Perhaps the American obsession with "safety" and "security" comes from your living conditions at home. Personally, I've never had a gun nor felt the need to have one. I'm not going to take one cruising and I hope the boats near mine don't have one either. Too many accidents with guns for my liking.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Guys, take all of these statistics with a grain of salt. You actually think there is some independent consulting firm, sitting off the side of the road in Zimbabwe, waiting for someone to be killed? NO offense, but I doubt the accuracy of even our records - much less Yemen or Iran or Zimbabwe for Pete's sakes. For example, the statistics may very well be higher when you consider the missing people that will never be seen again. And let us not forget, in China and Russia, you step out of bounds (and that out of bounds is a very thin line), they line you up and shoot you WITH GUNS! I guess if we took all our criminals, or suspected criminals, or suspects we suspected could be suspects of criminals, and put them on the firing line, our murder rates would be very low too. But is that really an accurate presentation of the facts? Same with Zimbabwe and other countries. And no one has mentioned Mexico. You cannot have even a bullet in Mexico. Why don't one of you Canadians come on down to a border town down here and get a nice picture of what it is like in a country with no guns. Of course, I am sure that given the tourist industry there, they will come back with a very low murder rate too. Mmmm-hmmm. Right. 

I live with guns. I have been raised with guns. I actually thought about shooting a pic of a truck across the street with a gun rack across the back to give you some idea that I am not exhagerrating. We don't kill each other here. It's the people, not the gun. Instead of questioning whether a person would have still been alive should the murderer not have had a gun, you should be questioning why they would pull the trigger in the first place. 

And another thing... if you don't like guns here, vote against them I guess. If you are from another country and you don't like guns here, tough. Stay home. Each man and his house, like I said earlier. I will respect your not having guns, I expect you to respect my rules and that I do have them.

Regarding hand guns, I really have no use for them. For one thing, I can't hit the broad side of a barn with them. Second, they are poor substitutes for a good rifle or shotgun where we live. THird, it's easier for the kids to hurt themselves with them. Still, I would never support someone taking them. 

There seems to be some people that think if we just take all the guns, people will all be nice to each other and and no more murders. I mean, look at Canada, right? Wrong. Different culture. Different problems. 

- CD


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Another question to ponder in this discussion: Mexico murder rate is out of sight. Brazil, not much better. Don't even bring up Columbia or Venezuela. 

Has the concept crossed anyone's mind that our murder/gun problem has more to do with our location that with the guns themselves? Canada is isolated. Australia, the same. China executes you for anything it sees fit. How many countries in Europe reside against another fighting with drug lords on the brink of a collapse? I believe much of our issues stem from our location.

I think that is a very fair argument. 

- CD


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

Hey I don't care if you are offended if I tell you that the murder crime rate in the US is horrific, don't care. I don't care if you don't believe the readily available stats that clearly outline the problem the US has with guns and crime, couldn't give a darn. I don't live there, so it's their problem, not mine.

You can look away all you want, it doesn't change the facts, facts are facts and you can't change it.

I'm lucky, I live in Canada, we don't have the problems the US has and we are lucky. Sure Americans get their nose out of joint when they are told what the issues are, especially so from foreigners, big deal, live with it.

I like Americans, have many friends and relatives that live in the states. All of which live in gated communities. This is an American phenomenon, and you know why.

I could go on all day for days outlining the factual issues with the gun crimes and crime in general in the USA. The bottom line is if the citizens don't want to do anything about it then nothing will change. I'm just glad that the huge gun/crime issue is an American one, and not a Canadian issue.

Anyway, I'm out, don't forget to lock your doors.


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

Cruisingdad said:


> Another question to ponder in this discussion: Mexico murder rate is out of sight. Brazil, not much better. Don't even bring up Columbia or Venezuela.
> 
> Has the concept crossed anyone's mind that our murder/gun problem has more to do with our location that with the guns themselves? Canada is isolated. Australia, the same. China executes you for anything it sees fit. How many countries in Europe reside against another fighting with drug lords on the brink of a collapse? I believe much of our issues stem from our location.
> 
> ...


Canada is on the border with the USA, yet we don't have a gun or crime problem. So your argument doesn't fly.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I thought this site was to help people with questions....Greg, you have done nothing but bash USA. Granted we have crime issues....but to have you throw it at us when you aren't apart of this and have no vote.....when you seem to delight in arguing and spewing instead of using this site as it was meant to be...shame on you.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> I'm just glad that the huge gun/crime issue is an American one, and not a Canadian issue.


Politicians, police seek help as gun violence surges in Metro Vancouver

Politicians, police seek help as gun violence surges in Metro Vancouver



> of which live in gated communities. This is an American phenomenon, and you know why.


This paper reports on a research project examining municipal planning responses to the
phenomenon of gated communities in Canada.

http://www.bristol.ac.uk/sps/cnrpapersword/gated/grant.pdf



> You can look away all you want, it doesn't change the facts, facts are facts and you can't change it.


"that the best currently available evidence, imperfect though it is (and must always be), indicates that general gun availability has no measurable net positive effect on rates of homicide, suicide, robbery, assault, rape, or burglary in the U.S."

Gun Control: Separating Reality from Symbolism


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## copacabana (Oct 1, 2007)

Cruisingdad, you're not suggesting that all those murders in your cities stem from sharing a border with Mexico, are you? There remains the plain fact that the US has a very high violent crime rate compared to other developed countries. Period. How to explain it, I'm not sure, although I have no doubt that having so many guns around adds to it. How many 'crimes of passion' have occured just because the disgruntled husband or wife had a handgun in the night table drawer? How many kids die due to accidental firing of guns every year? How many people are mistakenly shot for 'intruding' in someone's house (like the paper boy or a teenager coming in late after sneaking out)? Anyway, there's no winning an argument on guns with an American


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Oh and by the way... I lved up by the Washington/ Canadian border..watching Canadians come across throw their garbage out their windows, speed...in other words show disrespect and break the laws..tells me you are not a very respectful country. So, does spewing garbage make you feel better? Americans are aware of our problems.....fixing them is nearly impossible because of the corruption in our government. But, the average American is a good hard working person. We do the best we can, as I'm sure you do. Quit pointing our faults out to us... WE KNOW!!! WE LIVE HERE!


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

SailorGregS said:


> Canada is on the border with the USA, yet we don't have a gun or crime problem. So your argument doesn't fly.


You are not on the border with Mexico... unless I am mistaken. And if you want to comapre the two, come on down to Texas. You can walk across the border. Ever been to El Paso? I have. Laredo? Yep.

Canada, Australia, NZ, and many other coutries whose stats I actually would hold somewhat valid, do not border a country battling with drug lords and on the brink of a civil war. You are, and always have been, georgraphically isolated given your friendship with your "cousins" to the south.

- CD


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## MorganPaul (Sep 16, 2008)

JacquelineHaden said:


> I thought this site was to help people with questions....Greg, you have done nothing but bash USA. Granted we have crime issues....but to have you throw it at us when you aren't apart of this and have no vote.....when you seem to delight in arguing and spewing instead of using this site as it was meant to be...shame on you.


I agree. Greg is part of the hate America crowd. I have alot of respect for Canadians. But a Canadian that bashes America is a Dick.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

SailorGregS said:


> Canada is on the border with the USA, yet we don't have a gun or crime problem. So your argument doesn't fly.


Politicians, police seek help as gun violence surges in Metro Vancouver

Politicians, police seek help as gun violence surges in Metro Vancouver

Toronto has record surge of gun violence

USATODAY.com - Toronto has record surge of gun violence

Canada's Liberals feel election heat over gun violence
Polls show voters, rattled by high-profile shootings, trust Conservatives on the major issue in the Jan. 23 election

Worldandnation: Canada's Liberals feel election heat over gun violence

Canada Says US Is Exporting Gun Violence&#8230;

Canada Says US Is Exporting Gun Violenceâ€¦

Greg, I hear what you're saying, but it's all over in your headlines. Canada has a problem too.


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## bob77903 (Nov 10, 2008)

JacquelineHaden said:


> Oh and by the way... I lved up by the Washington/ Canadian border..watching Canadians come across throw their garbage out their windows, speed...in other words show disrespect and break the laws..tells me you are not a very respectful country. So, does spewing garbage make you feel better? Americans are aware of our problems.....fixing them is nearly impossible because of the corruption in our government. But, the average American is a good hard working person. We do the best we can, as I'm sure you do. Quit pointing our faults out to us... WE KNOW!!! WE LIVE HERE!


What she said...I guess they don't have any bad area's in Toronto or Montreal


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

copacabana said:


> Cruisingdad, you're not suggesting that all those murders in your cities stem from sharing a border with Mexico, are you? There remains the plain fact that the US has a very high violent crime rate compared to other developed countries. Period. How to explain it, I'm not sure, although I have no doubt that having so many guns around adds to it. How many 'crimes of passion' have occured just because the disgruntled husband or wife had a handgun in the night table drawer? How many kids die due to accidental firing of guns every year? How many people are mistakenly shot for 'intruding' in someone's house (like the paper boy or a teenager coming in late after sneaking out)? Anyway, there's no winning an argument on guns with an American


I believe it contributes to it. Come on down to Laredo or El Paso and tell me it does not. It is not the Mexican's fault, it is the drug lords and criminal activities that pass through our borders to other areas. We are a key hot spot for drugs. Take away the drugs, I bet the murder rate would fall exponentially. As far as the husband shooting the wife, he could have stabbed her too. Or are we going to outlaw knives as well? When Kris and I were in school we had a guy down from us shoot himself and kill himself with a handgun. His buddy gave it to him and they were playing Russian Roulette, or so the story goes. This is a true story. THey did not know it was loaded. Is that the guns fault? So you would say, "Outlaw the guns and that man would still be alive." I say, "Teach them to respect and learn how to handle guns properly, and he would still be alive." Also of interest is that my dad's work partner had a break in. He kept a handgun. He shot the intruder and killed him. As I recall, the man was armed and on crack or something. I wonder if he had not had a gun who would have won that battle??

I understand your argument(s). I really do. I am happy that you guys are happy not to have weapons. But that is not our society. As said before, I have no love or need for a handgun. I do use rifles/shotguns... but I have to given where I live. Still, I can appreciate those who wish to have a pistol for a firearm, whether I would want one or not. I can apprecaite Canadians and Australians that think nothing is necessary. I wonder why they cannot appreciate our culture and that we do at least have the option of owning them?

- CD


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Finally....no more negative about the USof A!!! Anyway, is pepper spray considered illegal?


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

JacquelineHaden said:


> Finally....no more negative about the USof A!!! Anyway, is pepper spray considered illegal?


It is in some countries. We go to Canada each summer. While pepper spray is restricted, bear spray made out of the same stuff is okay.

Go to Noonsite.com and they have the legalities listed for each country.

Where are you going anyway?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

We are going to do the BajaHaha then keep going down Mexico and to the papagos then across to New Zealand then Austrailia. We plan on cruising other countries for the nex 5 years.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

That sounds great. We're five years behind you.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Well, hopefully we will meet somewhere along the way.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

Here's the info sheet on Mexico to start out with:

http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Mexico/?rc=Formalities#Customs


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

Wow! Jackie baby really got fired up. Tough.

It seems when ever anyone says anything obviously negative about the US that person is automatically labeled an American hater. What's up with that? It appears that when facts are clearly pointed out you can't take it. You may have to get a thicker skin.

Sure Toronto is over 3.5 million and has only 90 gang/drug/guns related murders. I would challenge anyone to find a city in the USA with a population that size with a comparable figure. Or one that is only twice as bad.

Jackie baby, I sure hope you enjoy your cruise, I also hope you don't bring a gun. But mostly I hope it gives you time to relax, take er easy, enjoy. You sound kinda uptight. But I'm sure you are very nice person.


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

Jackie, I would suggest you take some bear spray with you. It's a better weapon than a gun. It's accurate range is farther, and it will give you time to thwart any attack.

Plus, it really works well, I've used it.


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

MorganPaul said:


> I agree. Greg is part of the hate America crowd. I have alot of respect for Canadians. But a Canadian that bashes America is a Dick.


Morgan you aren't making sense again. I don't hate, it's not in me pal. I can clearly state the obvious though, it's too bad it offends you.


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## SailorGregS (Mar 3, 2009)

erps said:


> Politicians, police seek help as gun violence surges in Metro Vancouver
> 
> Politicians, police seek help as gun violence surges in Metro Vancouver
> 
> ...


We don't have a problem, we don't want a problem. When we get an increase in crime in any area it's big news, simply because we don't have these issues.

As a nation we see the problems in the US and we know that if don't act we could have an issue, if we allow the influx of guns. The true cost of these crimes are social and economic, which is why we act so vigorously to stop it in it's tracks.

It would be nice if the US didn't have this huge problem, it would make it easier to stop illegal gun traffic at our border.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Greg. If there was not a demand for the guns in Canada there would be no illegal imports. Sort of like during Prohibition, when the Canadian whiskey was coming south!


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

Good point Bubb2.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I, again, would like to ask each and every person here to respect each other and others beliefs. Canada and many Candians do not believe in guns. That is fine. There are those in America who would fight you to the death for them. THat is fine. To each their own.

Let's just not make it personal on Sailnet. 

Thanks,

Brian


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

> Sure Toronto is over 3.5 million and has only 90 gang/drug/guns related murders. I would challenge anyone to find a city in the USA with a population that size with a comparable figure.


Nope, we don't compare. New York City has a homicide rate of 7.6, that's twice what Toronto's is.

Statistics indicate that cities in your country with high native populations have higher crime rates. We have similar statistics down here that indicate a higher crime rate in cities with higher black populations. I cherry picked some murder rates from communities with higher murder rates in your country and compared them to a cross section of cities in my country. As you can see, there is a wide variance.

While Portland Oregon and Bellingham Washington are lower than some of your cities, New Orleans and Washington D.C. are sky high. Oregon and Washington State are open carry states. That is that citizens can carry a weapon openly without a permit. Notice the low homicide rates? Washington D.C. had very restrictive firearm laws. Notice the high homicide rate? It's the people, not the guns.

Murder rate/100,000

Saskatoon 3.3 Portland Or 3.7
Regina 5.1 Seattle WA 5.1
Abbotsford 5.1 Bellingham WA 2.8
Winnipeg 2.6 New Orleans 52
Vancouver 2.1 Washington D.C 43
Edmonton 2.2 New York city 7.6
Toronto 3.3*



> We don't have a problem, we don't want a problem.


Well, frankly then we don't have a problem up here in the PNW either evidenced by our homicide rates comparable to Canadian cities. It's New Orleans and Washington D.C. that jams it up for the rest of the country, darn it. Yippee! We're like Canada in the PNW, only we don't restrict a citizen's right to bear arms!

The Daily, Wednesday, July 28, 2004. Crime statistics
Large Cities with Highest Murder Rate

*2007, a bad year


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

These gentlemen were our "escorts" while cruising for a brief ride on the Nile out of Luxor this past February.








'each with an automactic assault weapon & standing on the bow.








'take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Greg, you should read More Guns Less Crime , by John R.Lott
I can't understand the venomous replys on here. someone asked how I got permision to carry in Mexico, I wasn't cruising, i'm not a sailor yet. I have worked as a consultant and trainer down there for some gov. agencies. As a courtiousy, the gov. gave me a permit. in Belize I trained prime minister Barrows security force, he personaly gave me blanket athority to go armed.

This aspect of cruising had never occured to me, I've dreamed of semi-retirement in the caribbean for years, its almost here and I find myself having second thoughts, I just assumed the rules would be like flying an airplane into another country. as long as your weapons don't leave the craft to pass through customs you could have whatever you want onboard


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Damn I leave this thread alone for a day and look what can happen......

Here is a few thoughts Jackie to help answer your question about non gun options when cruising.

1) As has been suggested Buddy boating. Avoid VHF chatter however that may give away location and activity. Potential 'Pirates' may be monitoring. Keep on the HF.

2) Toy Guns. Plastic AK47's from Toys R Us look pretty convincing from a distance. The apporaching slightly hesitant would-be pirate may be fooled enough to not take the risk.

3)Piracy at night is common. Keep good watches, dim Nav lights and avoid any unidentified vessels in suspect areas. Have a very bright spotlight handy, directed in the eyes of an approaching vessel it can make boarding or aiming very difficult. Followed by a shot from the flare gun it might have some results.

4)Piracy or theft at anchor is probably most common. Remember that even a modest yacht to alot of people in this world screams of oppulence. Keep cash and jewellery out of sight when visiting villages, place noisy pans, or marbles etc on deck as your early warning system of your vessel being boarded. Tapes of barking dogs have been used by cruisers as well.

5)Loud alarms/sirens??

I guess the best thing to do is to have a plan. Piracy is very uncommon. Attacks are often by poor fisherman, not modern day Blackbeard types, so deterrants can be very effective. The professional Pirate is generally not interested in your average cruising yacht, Larger cargo vessels are their focus.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

erps said:


> Nope, we don't compare. New York City has a homicide rate of 7.6, that's twice what Toronto's is.
> 
> Statistics indicate that cities in your country with high native populations have higher crime rates. We have similar statistics down here that indicate a higher crime rate in cities with higher black populations.
> 
> ...


That should be rate/100,000; not per 1000. The reason NY's rate is so low is because the population is extremely high. It has the highest number of murders of any city at appx 600 per year. I suspect that most of the murders in our country are gang related; but with so many listed as "unknown" or "Other Arguments" it is hard to say.

Americans live in a somewhat unique culture in the sense that there are no ethnic borders aside from those that affluence would allow (gated communities, and rich or poor areas). But people of all cultures and religion live here in -relative- harmony. In other parts of the world people are butchering one another in genocide quantity for speaking a different dialect or wearing their clothes differently. In Europe ethnic and religous wars/genocide happened for thousands of years before borders were established and even then it did not fully stabilize until modern times (aside from WWI and WWII). So the US as a nation is doing pretty good in terms of comparisons to history and other less stable countries in the present day. Our country is just over 233 years young; won it's independence, has survived civil war, civil unrest, yet today has cultures from the entire world living under one government in relative peace (without police-state oversight AND the right to bear arms) . Where else in the world has this EVER happened?

Oh; here is a good question. If it were the use guns and weapons that allow for so much murder and killing in the US; then why is the murder rate in the US military relatively low? You'd think that all of the people lugging around automatic weapons, pistols, knives, etc, and trained to kill during combat would be more violence prone, no? (US Military is somewhere around 3-4/100k)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thank you CHALL03. Very great advice....I appreciate it greatly.


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## wind_magic (Jun 6, 2006)

I just watched the most bizarre exchange between someone at CNN and guests about gun control. It was April 8th 2009 at about 3:50pm and the person on CNN just went after Fox News, Glenn Beck, gun rights advocates, etc, it was the weirdest thing to watch. CNN I have always felt was a little partisan, but this was off the hook, the guy on CNN basically lost it saying that Fox News was responsible for stirring people up, that they were saying the President is a socialist, spreading hate, all kinds of stuff. I'm not huge fan of CNN, but is was really weird even for CNN.


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

Unfortunately, the 2nd amendment is the weird cousin that a lot of folks don't care for. Others see an erosion of one right as an erosion of all of them.


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## MoonSailer (Jun 1, 2007)

The best weapon is our brains. A gun provides a possible response and the more possible responses the more options. Bear spray could make the pirates very angry. If you have a quick escape the bear spray might work. But out at sea with them in a power boat and you in a slow sailboat I would be very hesitant to anger the pirates. The same with a handgun. Several pirates with rifles and you pull out a handgun then all they would have to do is shoot from a distance. Unfortunately you don't know their intentions. If they just want some cash just give it to them. But they might want sex with your wife or they might want the boat for drug smuggling....you just don't know. By the time you figure out they they plan to cut your throats and steal the boat it is too late. Ideally we use our brains to avoid such situations.


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

I own guns and I like guns but I doubt that I'll ever need one. I've been almost mugged 3 times in my life and each time I was able to avert it by out thinking my would-be muggers. I was aggressive towards them each time, essentially playing "chicken" with them. Probably not recommended by anyone but it worked for me. Once in Honolulu some druggie was trying to sneak around behind me in a park at night, trying to get close to the back of me. I stopped in my tracks, turned around and walked FAST right into his face and yelled WHAT? Scared the you know what out of him, he stuttered "Got a smoke?". Nope.
Another was when my car ran out of gas near LA. I was returning to the car with a can of gas and 3 young guys tried to take my wallet. The gas can lid didn't seal and I started squeezing the can to make the gas squirt out. I squirted gas all over 2 of them, 1 ran, and I grabbed the third and covered him with gas. The last 2 ran away when I pulled out a cigarette lighter and promised to die with them. The third wasn't such a good story, I just acted a little crazy, confronting the larger of the 2 guys and explaining to him how much fun I was going to have beating him up. They left. At any rate, it seems that they're only really interested in the easiest of targets. The somali pirates aren't taking on any military ships, they just go after the big freighters that don't have any defenses at all. Give them a bit too much trouble and they might go away. Or they might kill you, it all depends. I was lucky.
I think that the more passive defenses are probably the best idea. Bright lights, loud noises, sharp dangerous things on deck, etc. Maybe an inflatable Rottweiler?


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

sww914 - I do actually know of one cruiser who has inflatable crewmembers with toy guns 

I think you have hit upon the point here, the Somali pirates, ditto Malacca Straits et all are after freighters by and large. Your average cruising boat is not going to be of much interest, although yes there have been a couple of attacks on yachts off the Somali coast....

So better still don't cruise the coast of Somalia.... Its gotta be more than just coincidence that Sunsail don't have a base there yet


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## SVImpunity (Mar 7, 2009)

Here's my 2 bits worth. In general I'm against carrying guns at any time. I have contemplated what I would do if I were world cruising. I believe that if you do have firearms then you better be prepared to use them & I think that most people will balk when it comes to pulling the trigger to kill another person especially if their ultimate intent is unknown. Besides, it's unlikely that at the time of an incident that you (or I ) would be prepared for an attack as that is not what we are about & so the antagonist has the jump from the start. We can't protect ourselves from all dangers & so perhaps the best strategy is to try & avoid areas that are known for their bad reputation. Like someone said in an earlier post common sense is probably the best weapon. If someone is intent on killing you, which is unlikely then there isn't much you can do. But most "pirates" are after valuables so let them have them. Money is a renewable resource. Life isn't


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

chall03 said:


> So better still don't cruise the coast of Somalia....


The latest vessel taken by Somali pirates was 500km from the African coast. That pretty much puts the Gulf of Aden/Suez off limits. You may just happen across them when they're bored.

Although this time they have the US military taking a more than cursory interest. That should stop them farting in church.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Didn't realise the latest incident was so far off the coast........I guess though I would be nervous anywhere in the Gulf of Aden based on what I have read and heard. 

The US military from what I hear are firm believers in being armed while they cruise  

Personally I do like the French approach, not as ostentatious as a US Warship, but 4 helicopters full of French Commandos turning up and whisking the pirates back to Paris for trial does seem to have a certain European sense of style and finesse.


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