# What boat would you NOT take out bluewater cruising?



## phboujon

Hi All,

My girlfriend and I are getting closer to buying a boat to set on a 2 years sabbatical (expected cast off date of ~Nov 2011), leaving from the West Coast (Los Angeles), cruising along the South American Coast and eventually ending up on the east coast of the US either via the Panama Canal or Cape Horn.

We have researched boast extensively through books, internet boards (thanks for previous answers to some of my posts) and boat databases and have come up with a short list based on the following criteria:
-	A boat of that type can be purchased for < 100k 
-	Draft: < 6 ft 
-	DISPL/LWL : < 380 
-	Motion Ratio: > 30 
-	Capsize Ratio: < 1.8 
-	SA/DISP Ratio: > 15

While those criteria could be argued upon, this isn't the purpose of our post.

Those criteria have yielded the following list of boats, and we'd like feedback on what boat you would NOT take cruising on a long passage, and to make it an interesting conversation, we are setting the scenario that the boat would go around Cape Horn (We are not saying we will, but we want a boat that could if we decide to take that route back to the East Coast).

The list includes lengths 35 to 42 ft. Obviously, space on a boat is important, but it isn't what we'd like your comments on either .

We'd like to understand if any of you have strong reactions about any of the below boats when thinking to take it on a potentially long and difficult passage. Basically, we want to create a short list from the following long list:

BABA 35	
PACIFIC SEACRAFT 37	
ALLIED PRINCESS	
UNION 36	
BAYFIELD 36	
TAYANA 37	
WAUQUIEZ HOOD 38	
MORGAN 382 / 383 / 384	
HANS CHRISTIAN 38 (T or MKII)	
CABO RICO 38	
SHANNON 37 / 38	
BRISTOL 38.8	
C&C LANDFALL 39	
SOUTHERN CROSS 39	
CORBIN 39	
BAYFIELD 40	
COLUMBIA 40	
CAL 40	
VALIANT 40	
TAYANA 42	
PASSPORT 40	
PEARSON P40	
WHITBY 42	
TARTAN 42

Thank you for your help. If you can comment on what boat you would NOT take bluewater cruising, and why, we'll update this table for future users.

Cheers
Philippe & Erin


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## JohnRPollard

That's a pretty good list of solid boats. 

You'll probably here from more than a few who will feel these are on the heavy side for their liking. But I doubt there's even one boat on your list that hasn't taken owners there and back.  

That said, since your itinerary is largely coastal (if remote at times), you might cast your net a bit broader and look at some other designs that are not as specifically oriented towards making off-shore passages.

If it's only these boats you're considering and you're not interested in looking beyond this list, then one way to narrow it down a bit would be to scratch off the full-keeled boats. Or at least, make a separate list of fin keels and full-keels. In this size range you're looking at, it is harder to make the case for a full-keeled boat, as there should be more than adequate hull volume and displacement in boats of this size without going to a full keel.


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## Pamlicotraveler

I would think a search of the forum would yield a trove of information on this topic.


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## Jeff_H

I would reject all of them for your purposes, because of the premise and criteria under which they were chosen. When looking for a boat for the kind of purpose you are proposing, there are no one size fits all solutions. Everyone comes to their own boat search with very specific criteria that define their goals for a boat that they plan to take voyaging, and those criteria are more nuanced and subjective than simple numbers or names out of books. 

That criteria should be unique to you, and you alone, and typically should reflect the needs and tastes of that you as an individual base on your experiences and personality. When I look at the absurd range of choices on the list that you have posted, I see boats that range from rehashed IOR race boats to clunky posers, to production coastal cruisers, to protypical distance cruisers except that any one of these that was for sale for less than a $100K would not be in a condition that would be suitable for your needs without a whole lot of time and money, and a spectrum of vessels in between. Your list tells us that you don't know enough about sailing to know what you want out of a boat, and so are looking to the opinions of strangers to validate your random stab in the dark. That is no way to pick a boat. 

Perhaps if the boats on the list had even some small degree of consistent character, we could guess more about your sailing personality and recommend a reasonable pick kinda like Amazon does based on your past choices. That may work for buying downloads for an Ipod, but it is no way to pick a boat for the kind of voyaging that it sounds like you plan to do. 

More to the point, if I were you thinking that I was going to set off voyaging in roughly 19 months, I would get serious about really learning about sailing and boat handling, develop my own tastes and understandings about what I wanted out a boat, and at that point the boats on your short list will be a lot more consistent in charater, and will actually make sense for your needs and tastes given the sailing personality that you will have hopefully developed by then.

I do not mean this as a put down to you personally, just to the innane nature of your post. I understand that we all had to start somewhere. There is no sin in asking naive questions. But at the heart of it, the basic premise is that you plan to go off and do something potentially very risky without doing your homework or paying your dues. 

If you were an experienced sailor, you would know that it just does not work like that. It takes work and some level of discipline and dilligence to be a good sailor. It takes a williness to learn by actually doing, an apprenticeship of the sea. There are no instant or universally right answers in sailing. You need to learn what works for you and the only way to do that is to spend the time that it takes, hopefully you can start by developing a plan that will lead you through a reasonable learning process and that process will lead to the right boat choice for you. 

Buying the right boat that specifically meets your personal needs is expensive, buying the wrong boat because you arbitrarily chose to use some some goofy, very dated criteria, and then actually bought a boat that met that criteria on the word of some nameless stranger you have never met, is wildly expensive.....

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Maine Sail

What Jeff said... The basis criteria you've used, as Jeff said, is a minute aspect of what may make a good cruising boat. It is also a rather odd way to rule in/out boats.. While there are some decent boats on the list it is certainly an odd list clearly chosen based only on theoretical data points that generally mean little in the whole scheme of cruising. Personal skills generally mean a whole LOT more than the boat you are one. Also, a fair number of those boats will not be bought at anywhere near 100k, in any shape ready to cruise..

Having had family owned cruisers such as a Cape Dory's, Bristol's and a Hinckley I must say that in rough weather I don't prefer the older CCA style short waterlines and hobby horsing hulls. Having sailed thousands of miles on old and new style hulls I find the "motion comfort" ratings to be basically quite off the mark.. 

What boats I would not take around Cape Horn has more to do with personal comfort than build. Most any of those boats could do it if you could and if they are in good overall condition and ready for it.....


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## olson34

*Wait, here's one more....*

What Maine and Jeff said!
 
Also, this is one of the few times I have seen a rather lengthly "blue water" list like that without a Cascade 36 or 42 on it.
While my blue water miles are fewer than many, I can at least speak to having spent 36 hours in gale conditions, 50 miles out from shore off Cape Mendocino, in a Cascade 36. Lots of surfing with only the vane steering the whole trip. Very well built boats, and fast too.
("Rain Drop", overall winner of the last Pacific Cup is a Cascade 36, too).

Cheers,
L


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## emagin

phboujon Look at my cruising boat spreadsheet.

It pretty much fits your criteria, although you need to read more at Ted Brewer, John Holtrop and others as to why those criteria exist in the first place.
See Definitions tab at bottom of spreadsheet, loads of info there!

You need to define some things - and I do find lame posts about "you don't know what you want" as so useless.

Full keel or fin keel - slow vs. faster - lots of posts on that in here
Budget: 100k means what. Just boat or boat plus cruising setup, insurance, moving, trucking, survey, other fees.
Yachtworld search for avg price - see my spreadsheet for links to YW for boats of each type

Next you gotta shortlist boats by boat type.
You could get a Rafiki 37 (full keel slug) and find there are no parts, no community, nothing
You could get a Tayana 37 (full keel...) and find a vibrant community of people willing to help
Valiants are pricey and you have blister boats to watch out for
Corbins cheaper, med community, a bit ugly but solid
PacSeacraft and Cabo Rico - you can't afford probably out of budget
Etc.

Next is it on Mahina or Kretschmer lists?
Read their why's about what makes a good cruising boat.
Some boats have good numbers but are a serious PITA to move around in or work on the engine

Next just get it down to 3-4 boat types and start visiting dozens of them.
I had to visit 50 boats before I had a clue as to what I liked.


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## sailingdog

I would have to ask what experience you and your girlfriend have in terms of sailing. The Pacific coast can be rather challenging, especially if you are leaving that late in the year.

I would also ask what boats you've had experience sailing on? Do you really have any idea of what you are looking for in a boat??? Do you know if you or your girlfriend will get seasick or not, and under what conditions???

I'd point out that a boat that you'd need/want for rounding Cape Horn is not necessarily the same boat you'd want to do a Panama Canal crossing.

IMHO, you really should get the boat at least six months before you plan on departing. This is so that you can sail the boat and get used to her and figure out what additional equipment and modifications you'll want to make to the boat before you leave on your voyage. This is also so you can gain experience sailing your boat on progressively more difficult and longer voyages gradually and shake down the boat so that you know what works, and what needs to be modified.

I would point out that you may be better off looking at boats on the smaller size of your boat range, rather than larger. If you've not read Beth Leonard's The Voyager's Handbook, 2nd edition, she has a good section on why starting with a smaller boat is a good idea. Among the reasons getting a smaller boat is a good idea are:



> For each additional 10' in LOA, the maintenance chores double and the boat-related costs triple.


Larger boats have more rigging, more systems, more deck area, more hull, larger and often more complex deck gear, larger sails, etc. Many places charge mooring and slip fees per foot, as well as costs for haulouts, storage, etc.



> In many places, a large boat will limit the choice of marinas and make it harder to get fuel and water


It will also limit the moorings and slips the boat can use, as well as the number of hurricane holes you can use. Larger boats are also less likely to be used for daysails and such... if you look at any marina, you'll see that the use of many boats is inversely proportional to their size.

Larger boats are also more likely to attract thieves and pirates, since smaller boats are usually considered less valuable as targets.



> Though Hawk (47' LOA) is much more stable than Silk (37' LOA) and therefore much "safer" in extreme conditions, Silk was much more forgiving. If we misjudged a squall and didn't get the chute off in time, we could wrestle the sock down over it and manhandle it to the deck. If we wrapped the jib during a jibe, we could unwrap it by hand in light air and with a winch in windy conditions. But brute force gets us nowhere aboard Hawk. She requires much greater forethought, because the forces she generates quickly become unmanageable and dangerous. Silk offered the perfect learning environment while we made every mistake in the book; Hawk demands all the skills we've acquired to sail safely and efficiently.


Smaller boats are often far more forgiving. You can often push a smaller boat away from a dock or haul it into a dock with a spring line, unaided, but try doing that with a larger boat, and you're risking life and limb.



> Before we started sailing Hawk, I'd been of the "bigger boat, bigger winches, no problems" school.


Yes, larger winches, an electric windlass, etc., can make sailing a larger boat easier, but that doesn't necessarily mean the boat will be easier to handle. Carrying the sails or anchor and rode out of the locker requires more sheer strength than doing so on a smaller boat. What happens when the nice powered accessories you're relying on fail??? Hauling in the anchor rode on a 45' boat is often much harder than doing so on a 35' boat, as are carrying the sails, flaking the sails, coiling the docklines, etc.

Just some food for thought.


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## andantesail

The Pacific Seacraft 34 is only a bit smaller than the 37 and is a fine blue water boat. 
Karl 
Andante PSC 34 #276


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## jrd22

ph- rough crowd here today. While I agree that your list may not be consistent and some of the boats do not fit your own criteria (well equipped Passport 40 for under 100K?), unfortunately no one has done what you asked. There are a couple of boats on your list that I personally wouldn't take around Cape Horn, but there are lesser boats than any on your list that have done so with no problems so who is really to say. Starting with a list of criteria is just that, a start. Hopefully you will get some responses that address your request from people with experience in the actual boats on your list. Good luck with your dream.


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## smackdaddy

It seems "The Horn" is the sticky part here. That's a nasty stretch of blue from what I understand.

So, how about this, I wouldn't take the Morgan or the C&C around Cape Horn.


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## davidpm

There seems to be two groups of successful blue water voyagers and one group of the unsuccessful type.

Some people who do very well buy an old solid boat and take a year often much more and a lot of money and refit their old boat till they know it inside and out.

Other people bumfuzzle | intro sept oct 2003 buy a newer boat still have to fit it out but may have others do a lot of the work and if they are or can become good enough sailors fast enough they make it.

The ones who buy an older boat and have limited skills and a boat that is not in the best of shape often run out of luck before they get skills.

The old saying is that when we start sailing we start with a full bag of luck and and empty bag of experience. The goal is to fill the experience bag before the luck bag is empty.


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## mitiempo

I agree withmost of what has been said above. Strange list.
What is your sailing experience? Any offshore experience?
I see some good boats on that list along with a few mutts (real old shoes). As posted the interesting part is that they are all on the same list. In good shape most if not all could do it (even Cape Horn), but to put boats like the Cal 40 and Wauquiez Hood 38 on the same list as the Hans Christian and Tayana makes no sense to me as their only commonality is really length. 
I think your criteria for selection is faulty as it looks like you are going by numbers on a sail calc only - some of which are really rather meaningless in any case.
Are you prepared to add 30 to 40k in upgrades, equipment, and repairs to your 100k before leaving? And are you able to decide what these upgrades should be? And are you able to take care of most of these yourself or will you have to pay a yard to do it for you?
I'd suggest going smaller, Pacific Seacraft 34 being a good choice that fits your criteria except for length. It is a solid boat that can be purchased within your budget and was really designed with this in mind.

I do disagree with dog's point about leaving too late though. Baja Ha-Ha leaves at the end of October and Eastern Pacific hurricane season isn't officially over until November 30 so your departure date seems right.


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## phboujon

Thanks all for your replies, especially those who have tried to answer my request and help crossing out boats based on their own experience. To those who have judged my post too fast, I don't mind, it's easy to misread someone intentions through a post but read on and if you feel like it, help me with your next post instead.

Let me expand a little on my experience, and current preparations.

First of all, I have been sailing on & off since 2002. I have my U.S. sailing certifications up to coastal passage making done in San Francisco. However, I wouldn't say that I am an experienced sailor at all. 

I am however learning once again, with my girlfriend, after a couple years landlocked in the desert. We are taking classes, seeking sailing opportunities that our busy work schedule allows, and reading as much as we can. By the time we would leave, we will have taken all U.S. certifications up to offshore passage making, and we will have taken classes with such schools as Mahina Offshore or others to get more experience in offshore sailing.

As far as books, I have read Hal Roth, Beth Leonard, John Rousmaniere, John Vigor, John Kretschmer, Dan Spurrs books about what makes a good bluewater cruiser. I have also read Don Casey and Nigel Calders books about refitting. Yes, my library of sailing books have grown in the past 2 years (It isn't a new dream). However, while book knowledge is good, it is not sufficient, which is why I am turning to this board.

You're all right that the list of boat is disjointed but based on my reading, and based on characteristics of those boats, all are "apparently" good bluewater cruiser. That is where YOU come in.

I don't have the time to go and sail every one of those boat, and find out whether their characteristics on paper translate in the real. That is why I am seeking help from people who have experience with these boats.

In term of budget and scheduling, our plan is to spend no more than ~100K into the purchase of a boat, purchase that would take place end of this year. We have additional funds for the refit and equiping of the boat. I realize though that some of these boats might be in a very sorry condition if at ~100K (Passport 40 is one example). However, I don't want to rule them out yet.

One of you asked: What are we looking for in a boat? Let me try to answer:

We are looking for a boat with good motion through the water, but not so heavy that we won't enjoy sailing her. We are looking for a safe boat, with sturdy construction and appropriate rigthing moment. We are looking for a boat spacious enough that after we spend nearly 200K into it after 2 years, we can live in it for another 2 years while we decide where to settle down in the East Coast. We like the curves of double ender boats, but are still open to look at other butts. We want a cutter, aft cockpit, between 37 & 42, probably it will be around 40 feets. 

I have approached my search from a analytic standpoint before I pour my feelings into it, which is why I have used Mahina, Holltrop and emagin spreadsheet in addition to my readings to create that list. I however have feelings, some of these boats rock my heart more than others (Tayana 42, Valiant 40, Corbin 39 - All three I think have great curves), but I am not partial and I am going to go and visit every one of those boats in the next 6 months (starting this weekend in Ft Lauderdale) to determine how I feel about them.

I hope my post shed light on my experience and my reasonning. Now, back to my original post, what are the boats you would NOT take bluewater cruising (and yes, the "Horn" is the sticky point, but imagine yourself in one of those boat rounding the Horn... would you trust that boat?).

Thanks
Philippe


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## smackdaddy

Good summary ph. Hopefully you'll get some better answers.

I'm not sure anyone on SN right now has ever been around the Horn. What say you SiNcitiers? Anyone done the round?


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## mitiempo

A neighbor at the marina I live in left a year and a half ago from Victoria and sailed direct to Tahiti in his Spencer 35 (same as Hal Roth's Whisper), a first leg of several thousand miles. From there he sailed to Puerto Montt Chile. After some side trips in South America he left December 8 bound for the Horn and beyond. He arrived in Simonstown South Africa last week after a very rough passage. He is sailing alone. At one point it took him over half an hour to go fight his way from the cockpit to the bow. 
Any boats listed could do the trip, assuming proper preparation. It's not all about the boat, a lot is about the sailor.


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## blt2ski

There is a couple of folks that left Puget sound in the last 1-2 yrs, and one leaving in a few months, ALL are on J-boats, none of which are on your list. A fellow did a nonstop from France around in a 34' Jeanneau Sunrise a few yrs back. Someone else did it in a Catalina 27. Another is heading around in an open cockpit 19' boat. ANother recently did it at 16 in an Islander 36. 

So with all this, take you pick of boats! Personally, I would get rid of the old shoes, ie full keel models, and get something that was reasonably quick. 

Marty


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## puddinlegs

smackdaddy said:


> It seems "The Horn" is the sticky part here. That's a nasty stretch of blue from what I understand.
> 
> So, how about this, I wouldn't take the Morgan or the C&C around Cape Horn.


Smack, you gotsta learn more about yer C&Cs... there are certainly a few that would crush the horn... I'm thinking the old 61', but of course, you still can't get one for $100,000 

Leaving LA in November to head south... pretty normal.

What else? To the original poster, you should go through your stack of old Lat. 38's and look for the Bahahaha participants list. You'll find a nice list of very suitable boats at any number of budgets. Just a thought... If I personally were going to go down to Mexico and points south, but NOT planning to live aboard in the NE afterward, I'd look for a suitable Cal 40. There's also an Olson 40 that's still on the market that would be right at the top of my list. But if I were going to end up living aboard for a couple of years in the NE afterward, I'd look for something that had a little nicer interior, storage, etc... maybe even heavier like some of the samller Perry designed cruisers you've mentioned that would fit within your budget. (A Baba 40 in the condition you need given your time frame might be unrealistic unless you just get dumb lucky.) Then of course, it really is up to looking at individual boats. Your list IS all over the map which is why you got jumped on, and I'll have to agree, without your second post, really impossible to even begin to sort out what the crowd thinks you might really want.

The other thing, every boat you mentioned has been cruised to the be'jeezus and back. You're not sailing around the horn or in high latitudes. This would change your list drastically if you were.

Just my 2 cents


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## smackdaddy

puddinlegs said:


> Smack, you gotsta learn more about yer C&Cs... there are certainly a few that would crush the horn... I'm thinking the old 61', but of course, you still can't get one for $100,000


Heh-heh. I was just trying to get the party started. I sail in a lake - what do I know?!?!


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## sailingdog

To quote one of the old Zork computer games:



> Not much...





smackdaddy said:


> Heh-heh. I was just trying to get the party started. I sail in a lake - what do I know?!?!


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## GeorgeB

Interestingly, the Cal 40 was designed as a transoceanic racer. They still have cult status and I don't think you could pick one up for under $100k, and if you did, it could cost up to another $100k to bring it back. What is the fascination with Cape Horn? A lot of boats have done it. Heck, I know of a couple of Catalina's that have, but again, why would you want to beat against the Humboldt Current for a couple thousand miles with harbors few and far between? You really need to think out your plan some more.


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## smackdaddy

sailingdog said:


> To quote one of the old Zork computer games:


Touche. So where is your "Horn Rounding" story again Dog? I looked over your blog and couldn't find it. Heh-heh.

Circ? Transpac? Transat? Zorkpac?


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## Paul_L

GeorgeB said:


> Interestingly, the Cal 40 was designed as a transoceanic racer. They still have cult status and I don't think you could pick one up for under $100k, and if you did, it could cost up to another $100k to bring it back. What is the fascination with Cape Horn? A lot of boats have done it. Heck, I know of a couple of Catalina's that have, but again, why would you want to beat against the Humboldt Current for a couple thousand miles with harbors few and far between? You really need to think out your plan some more.


George,
Check the online pricing for Cal 40's. 50K will buy you a decent, albeit old, Cal 40.

Paul L


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## blt2ski

Smack,

HERE is a really nice C&C 61 for you! only $900K bet it would take you where you want to go. The same dealer has a N/M 68 for about 300K that would get you wherever REALLY quick! Probably on par with that SStraights race vid on Icon!

Oh yeah, to be back on topic.......OP, do not try your trip in an El Toro! or an Opti! I would throw those off you list, unless you are Fred the fearless in disguise!

Marty


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## JohnRPollard

mitiempo said:


> ...
> I'd suggest going smaller, Pacific Seacraft 34 being a good choice that fits your criteria except for length. It is a solid boat that can be purchased within your budget and was really designed with this in mind.....


I was going to offer up the same suggestion. If you are only a couple aboard -- the PSC Crealock 34 should be more than adequate for your sailing needs. No, probably not ideal for living aboard in a marina for several years afterward. But with that requirement, now you're introducing yet another variable into the equation. You might want to focus on the best boat for the trip, and deal with the live-aboard situation when you get back.

To get a good idea of the 34's capabilities, take a look at The Voyage of the Swan. The owner is a member here at Sailnet and check's in from time to time. One observation I recall him commenting on is the amount of time other cruisers on more lightly built boats spend making repairs in port.


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## puddinlegs

GeorgeB said:


> Interestingly, the Cal 40 was designed as a transoceanic racer. They still have cult status and I don't think you could pick one up for under $100k, and if you did, it could cost up to another $100k to bring it back. What is the fascination with Cape Horn? A lot of boats have done it. Heck, I know of a couple of Catalina's that have, but again, why would you want to beat against the Humboldt Current for a couple thousand miles with harbors few and far between? You really need to think out your plan some more.


You should be able to find a very nice one for 50-60k. I think the most expensive one I recall seeing for sale was like 78k. All old boat will need work of course. Figure about 10%~25% of the purchase price to take care of basic issues. Figure much more if it hasn't gotten much love over the past decade.

All that aside, I don't think the OP really wants a Cal 40.


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## smackdaddy

Man, bluto, that's a pimpin' ride. I'm actually a big fan of the Morgan N/M 45. I love those boats...even though I don't dig the centerboards all that much. Beautiful.



blt2ski said:


> Smack,
> 
> HERE is a really nice C&C 61 for you! only $900K bet it would take you where you want to go. The same dealer has a N/M 68 for about 300K that would get you wherever REALLY quick! Probably on par with that SStraights race vid on Icon!
> 
> Oh yeah, to be back on topic.......OP, do not try your trip in an El Toro! or an Opti! I would throw those off you list, unless you are Fred the fearless in disguise!
> 
> Marty


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## sailingdog

I wouldn't recommend the Cal 40. While it is a nice boat and all, it isn't very seakindly. There's a surfer, Liz Clark, currently sailing around in a Cal 40 and she has written on her *blog* about how the boat handles heavy weather... and it isn't very pretty to read.


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## GeorgeB

Paul,
Yes, I am not altogether unfamiliar with the Cal 40 (that's me, in red hat and yellow spray jacket in the back of the boat). As they stopped making the 40 in 1972, I consider them all "older" and the boats in the photo all have had astronomical sums of money pumped into them. I was even considering taking one, modernize it, and set it up for cruising. I stopped the exercise when it became apparent that I would be spending between $50 and $100k after I bought the boat. Perhaps I have higher standards and expectations than most and one can still have lots of fun on a more decrepit boat, but if I was going to spend some time in the Southern Ocean&#8230; Now, if you know of a Cal that is truely cruise ready and is under $100k, send me the link now!

Sailing Dog, no matter how you slice it, the Cal is still a pretty light boat and takes a pretty deft touch on the tiller (I was looking at converting to wheel as I'm better on the wheel than tiller). From personal experience, they are pretty predictable and they recover from beam rolls nicely!









<O


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## sailingdog

Not a big fan of them, especially for short-handed cruising, because of the lack of movable ballast...



GeorgeB said:


> Paul,
> 
> 
> Sailing Dog, no matter how you slice it, the Cal is still a pretty light boat and takes a pretty deft touch on the tiller (I was looking at converting to wheel as I'm better on the wheel than tiller). From personal experience, they are pretty predictable and they recover from beam rolls nicely!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <O


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## GeorgeB

Dog,
Plenty of moveable ballast in my photo. Oh, you mean moveable and singlehanded. Not too many boats out there with moveable ballast and I'm not all that sure I'd want all that weight on one side if the boat got turned around. It is altogether fitting that Liz is taking a Cal on her surfing safari. Here is Far-Far in the Molokai Channel at the end of TransPac 05. Fast is fun!


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## johnnyandjebus

GeorgeB said:


> Paul,
> Yes, I am not altogether unfamiliar with the Cal 40 (that's me, in red hat and yellow spray jacket in the back of the boat). As they stopped making the 40 in 1972, I consider them all "older" and the boats in the photo all have had astronomical sums of money pumped into them. I was even considering taking one, modernize it, and set it up for cruising. I stopped the exercise when it became apparent that I would be spending between $50 and $100k after I bought the boat. Perhaps I have higher standards and expectations than most and one can still have lots of fun on a more decrepit boat, but if I was going to spend some time in the Southern Ocean&#8230; Now, if you know of a Cal that is truely cruise ready and is under $100k, send me the link now!
> 
> Sailing Dog, no matter how you slice it, the Cal is still a pretty light boat and takes a pretty deft touch on the tiller (I was looking at converting to wheel as I'm better on the wheel than tiller). From personal experience, they are pretty predictable and they recover from beam rolls nicely!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <O


Sorry for the temporary thread high-jack but I have to say that is one beautiful set of sails. Please carry on with the topic at hand.

John


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## smackdaddy

GeorgeB said:


> Dog,
> Plenty of moveable ballast in my photo. Oh, you mean moveable and singlehanded. Not too many boats out there with moveable ballast and I'm not all that sure I'd want all that weight on one side if the boat got turned around. It is altogether fitting that Liz is taking a Cal on her surfing safari. Here is Far-Far in the Molokai Channel at the end of TransPac 05. Fast is fun!


HOLY CRAP!!!! Look at that bow wave!!!


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## phboujon

puddinlegs said:


> What else? To the original poster, you should go through your stack of old Lat. 38's and look for the Bahahaha participants list. You'll find a nice list of very suitable boats at any number of budgets. Just a thought... If I personally were going to go down to Mexico and points south, but NOT planning to live aboard in the NE afterward, I'd look for a suitable Cal 40. There's also an Olson 40 that's still on the market that would be right at the top of my list. But if I were going to end up living aboard for a couple of years in the NE afterward, I'd look for something that had a little nicer interior, storage, etc... maybe even heavier like some of the samller Perry designed cruisers you've mentioned that would fit within your budget. (A Baba 40 in the condition you need given your time frame might be unrealistic unless you just get dumb lucky.) [...]
> 
> The other thing, every boat you mentioned has been cruised to the be'jeezus and back. You're not sailing around the horn or in high latitudes. This would change your list drastically if you were.


Thanks puddinglegs for the suggestion, It's a good idea to look at the baha ha ha participants.

As far as your final comment, (and this is inexperience speaking here), how would the list change in high latitudes?

Thanks again all for the replies. The PS34 felt to us a little too snug, without much water or fuel.


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## kevlarpirate

phboujon said:


> Hi All,
> 
> My girlfriend and I are getting closer to buying a boat to set on a 2 years sabbatical (expected cast off date of ~Nov 2011), leaving from the West Coast (Los Angeles), cruising along the South American Coast and eventually ending up on the east coast of the US either via the Panama Canal or Cape Horn.
> 
> We have researched boast extensively through books, internet boards (thanks for previous answers to some of my posts) and boat databases and have come up with a short list based on the following criteria:
> -	A boat of that type can be purchased for < 100k
> -	Draft: < 6 ft
> -	DISPL/LWL : < 380
> -	Motion Ratio: > 30
> -	Capsize Ratio: < 1.8
> -	SA/DISP Ratio: > 15
> 
> While those criteria could be argued upon, this isn't the purpose of our post.
> 
> Those criteria have yielded the following list of boats, and we'd like feedback on what boat you would NOT take cruising on a long passage, and to make it an interesting conversation, we are setting the scenario that the boat would go around Cape Horn (We are not saying we will, but we want a boat that could if we decide to take that route back to the East Coast).
> 
> The list includes lengths 35 to 42 ft. Obviously, space on a boat is important, but it isn't what we'd like your comments on either .
> 
> We'd like to understand if any of you have strong reactions about any of the below boats when thinking to take it on a potentially long and difficult passage. Basically, we want to create a short list from the following long list:
> 
> BABA 35
> PACIFIC SEACRAFT 37
> ALLIED PRINCESS
> UNION 36
> BAYFIELD 36
> TAYANA 37
> WAUQUIEZ HOOD 38
> MORGAN 382 / 383 / 384
> HANS CHRISTIAN 38 (T or MKII)
> CABO RICO 38
> SHANNON 37 / 38
> BRISTOL 38.8
> C&C LANDFALL 39
> SOUTHERN CROSS 39
> CORBIN 39
> BAYFIELD 40
> COLUMBIA 40
> CAL 40
> VALIANT 40
> TAYANA 42
> PASSPORT 40
> PEARSON P40
> WHITBY 42
> TARTAN 42
> 
> Thank you for your help. If you can comment on what boat you would NOT take bluewater cruising, and why, we'll update this table for future users.
> 
> Cheers
> Philippe & Erin


there are several boats on your list which will do fine . There are some posters here who are a little too much in love with their own boats to be objective . write back if you would like to go farther into this subject


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## CBinRI

Jeff_H said:


> I would reject all of them for your purposes, because of the premise and criteria under which they were chosen. When looking for a boat for the kind of purpose you are proposing, there are no one size fits all solutions. Everyone comes to their own boat search with very specific criteria that define their goals for a boat that they plan to take voyaging, and those criteria are more nuanced and subjective than simple numbers or names out of books.
> 
> That criteria should be unique to you, and you alone, and typically should reflect the needs and tastes of that you as an individual base on your experiences and personality. When I look at the absurd range of choices on the list that you have posted, I see boats that range from rehashed IOR race boats to clunky posers, to production coastal cruisers, to protypical distance cruisers except that any one of these that was for sale for less than a $100K would not be in a condition that would be suitable for your needs without a whole lot of time and money, and a spectrum of vessels in between. Your list tells us that you don't know enough about sailing to know what you want out of a boat, and so are looking to the opinions of strangers to validate your random stab in the dark. That is no way to pick a boat.
> 
> Perhaps if the boats on the list had even some small degree of consistent character, we could guess more about your sailing personality and recommend a reasonable pick kinda like Amazon does based on your past choices. That may work for buying downloads for an Ipod, but it is no way to pick a boat for the kind of voyaging that it sounds like you plan to do.
> 
> More to the point, if I were you thinking that I was going to set off voyaging in roughly 19 months, I would get serious about really learning about sailing and boat handling, develop my own tastes and understandings about what I wanted out a boat, and at that point the boats on your short list will be a lot more consistent in charater, and will actually make sense for your needs and tastes given the sailing personality that you will have hopefully developed by then.
> 
> I do not mean this as a put down to you personally, just to the innane nature of your post. I understand that we all had to start somewhere. There is no sin in asking naive questions. But at the heart of it, the basic premise is that you plan to go off and do something potentially very risky without doing your homework or paying your dues.
> 
> If you were an experienced sailor, you would know that it just does not work like that. It takes work and some level of discipline and dilligence to be a good sailor. It takes a williness to learn by actually doing, an apprenticeship of the sea. There are no instant or universally right answers in sailing. You need to learn what works for you and the only way to do that is to spend the time that it takes, hopefully you can start by developing a plan that will lead you through a reasonable learning process and that process will lead to the right boat choice for you.
> 
> Buying the right boat that specifically meets your personal needs is expensive, buying the wrong boat because you arbitrarily chose to use some some goofy, very dated criteria, and then actually bought a boat that met that criteria on the word of some nameless stranger you have never met, is wildly expensive.....
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jeff


FWIW, Jeff, I thought this post was much more insulting than it needed to be. You could make your point (and usually do) without calling his post innane and goofy and I would guess he won't likely post here again after being made to feel stupid. Just my two cents.

Edit: Obviously, the OP was more intrepid than I would have been, was not dissuaded from further posts and I am sure I'm a little on the sensitive side. I also meant to add that I am a fan and have learned a lot from your posts over the years.


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## puddinlegs

phboujon said:


> As far as your final comment, (and this is inexperience speaking here), how would the list change in high latitudes?


It's cold! The water's cold. It blows... often a lot. Think of it like foul weather gear. There are 'coastal' and 'ocean' foulies, then there are 'dry suits'. For high latitude sailing, think dry suit. Something more sea kindly with a great cabin heating system, a bomb proof hard dodger, and a boat with a deeper bow entry for upwind work, etc...


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## phboujon

Thanks puddinglegs. I see, basically what Beth Leornard's Hawk is. Got the point


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## phboujon

CBinRI said:


> I would guess he won't likely post here again after being made to feel stupid. Just my two cents.
> 
> Edit: Obviously, the OP was more intrepid than I would have been, was not dissuaded from further posts and I am sure I'm a little on the sensitive side.


 - Thanks for the post. I was indeed not dissuaded. My take is that the dream of cruising is the dream of overcoming feeling stupid every step of the way. Researching & buying a sailboat, refitting it, going the first time to a chandlery looking for an item you barely can pronunce the weird name, casting off, and every stop of the way anchoring, mooring or docking under the gaze of all other sailors is an exercise on how to overcome feeling stupid... so I better start early 

Cheers
Philippe


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## NCountry

Hey OP....
You're defending your self great. Keep bantering with them and you'll get awesome advice. I've been reading these forums for quite a while now and just bought MY Old Shoe. Everything I read here turned out to be a real help and in a few more years we're out of here. While you're picking their brains it helps if you'll volunteer to send each one of them a bottle of rum if they'll provide you with an address.......
Sailing, for my family and I, is the greatest experience in the world. Dang, I get excited just thinking about it!


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## smackdaddy

phboujon said:


> - Thnaks for the post. I was indeed not dissuaded. My take is that the dream of cruising is the dream of overcoming feeling stupid every step of the way. Researching & buying a sailboat, refitting it, going the first time to a chandlery looking for an item you barely can pronunce the weird name, casting off, and every stop of the way anchoring, mooring or docking under the gaze of all other sailors is an exercise on how to overcome feeling stupid... so I better start early
> 
> Cheers
> Philippe


Great attitude dude. Just remember, even Jeff used to be stupid! Heh-heh.

Hang in there. Sailing is the best damn thing in the world.


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## CBinRI

phboujon said:


> - Thanks for the post. I was indeed not dissuaded. My take is that the dream of cruising is the dream of overcoming feeling stupid every step of the way. Researching & buying a sailboat, refitting it, going the first time to a chandlery looking for an item you barely can pronunce the weird name, casting off, and every stop of the way anchoring, mooring or docking under the gaze of all other sailors is an exercise on how to overcome feeling stupid... so I better start early
> 
> Cheers
> Philippe


I can relate because I took up sailing late in life and I have only learned through asking dumb questions (many of which Jeff answered gracefully). I wish you the best of luck.


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## mitiempo

You need the foul weather gear long before getting to high latitudes. If you mean the Horn, The Falklands and South Georgia the boat should be capable of day after day of gale conditions and waves of 30' or greater. Yes heat is important but not as much as a solid boat that won't break. Most production boats are not built for this abuse but there are a few. Not many cheap ones though. For much sailing in high latitudes I would prefer aluminum both for its durability and low maintenance. Here's a link to a purpose built boat for high latitude sailing. And his anchoring gear is top notch as well - he designed the Rocna. 
About "Kiwi Roa"


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## puddinlegs

mitiempo said:


> You need the foul weather gear long before getting to high latitudes. If you mean the Horn, The Falklands and South Georgia the boat should be capable of day after day of gale conditions and waves of 30' or greater. Yes heat is important but not as much as a solid boat that won't break. Most production boats are not built for this abuse but there are a few. Not many cheap ones though. For much sailing in high latitudes I would prefer aluminum both for its durability and low maintenance. Here's a link to a purpose built boat for high latitude sailing. And his anchoring gear is top notch as well - he designed the Rocna.
> About "Kiwi Roa"


I think you missed the intent of my reference to foul weather gear. It was an analogy not intended to be taken literally.


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## SeaLifeSailing

*Experience will be more important than your vessel selection*

Hi Philippe & Erin,

Some useful thoughts among the replies you've recieved. In reading your post, there are a few things that immediately spring to mind.

If you're looking to do extensive cruising on big water, the 1 single most important factor involved in your safety, is not so much the boat you choose, as your own skill level on the water. Good sailors make iffy boats sail well, and poor sailors can get into terrifying trouble in the best of boats in moderate conditions. If you don't believe me, just monitor your VHF radio and marvel at the hijinx that people get up to, even on big, expensive, well-equipped, capable boats.

Moreover, a bigger boat is NOT neccessarily going to be safer for you. As other posters have pointed out, bigger boats can be much less forgiving, as the amount of force multiplies with bigger sails, so your skill level must be at a much higher level in a larger boat under the same conditions. One friend of mine with a 44 C&C is now finding the boat to be a bit too much when shorthanded, after owning it and sailing in it over 100 days a year - and up to 250 - for more than 10 years. The gear is mammoth - entering and exiting the cabin requires dexterity. It is not a forgiving boat with a small crew. Spending a week aboard, cruising with winds exceeding 30 knots most days, it could be exhausting performing tasks on his boat that are simple and physically not particularly demanding on my 36 footer. I'd recommend joining your local chapter of the Bluewater cruising association, getting as much time afloat as you possibly can, taking some formal instruction, and perhaps joining some seriously experienced boaters as crew on offshore boatmoves, once your skills are up to par at skippering a decent-sized boat in moderate and then progressively stronger conditions. As Jeff, I think, points out - there are no shortcuts to becoming a safe, proficient sailor, except professional instruction, and a whole lot of time on the water, some of which should be spent with sailors who have professional levels of competence and a great attitude afloat. If you desire instruction from a serious offshore sailor, contact me and I can refer you to a couple of exceptionally competent, owner-operated sailing schools whose instructors have extensive offshore teaching experience, and tens of thousands of offshore miles under their keels. These are the guys I'd ask about offshore boat selection - they might be able to help you refine your focus somewhat.

Good luck with your cruising goals!

Jeremy


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## phboujon

Hi Jeremy,

Thank you for your insights! 

We 100% agree that safety is number 1. We also realize that bigger is not better. Recently, after more learning, we have brought back our sight on 38-40 length.

We are currently taking formal instruction with U.S. Sailing, and once completed all levels, we will continue with possibly John Neal Mahina Expedition or John Kretschmer Sailing, but I would welcome any references to other schools (I'll PM you) as schedules of those "schools" might not always with our job schedules. 

I have actually attended in the past month the seminars from those two experts in how to choose a boat and how to prepare for such a dream, so as you can see, Iwe am definitley not taking any shortcut.

One of your suggestion was to join our local chapter of Bluewater cruising association. If I may ask, what associaitons are you referring to? SSCA? It is true I have not yet joined that but am thinking about it. Is there any other?

Thanks again
Philippe


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## SeaLifeSailing

*Sounds like you are on the right track*

Hey Phillipe,

I have responded privately so as not to publicly 'pitch' a bunch of sailing schools. Sounds like you are taking the right kind of steps.

In Western Canada, there is the Bluewater Cruising Association Bluewater Cruising Association, Vancouver, BC, Canada that has members from around the world, and which exists to pass information between experienced and aspiring bluewater cruisers, and to support offshore dreams with real-world information sharing. There may be something similar in your neck of the woods, as well... Kind of nice to have people who are getting ready to go, picking up tips from those who've just got back...

I'm looking forward to hearing about your progress and seeing your trip pics when you do finally head off...


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## SoulVoyage

Wouldn't a better question be: We're thinking of a 2 year sabbatical aboard a boat in the 35-4x foot range. Starting from West Coast, final destination is the East Coast via either Panama or perhaps Cape Horn. What blue water boats would you suggest for the two of us?

In that case, I would agree with other's that the Horn is an entirely different proposition than the canal. So you can do either of two things:
Decide WHICH route you want to take, and THEN decide on the boat,

Or

decide on the boat based upon the most rigorous of your options, which would be the Horn. 

If Horn, you will want a strong, well-made boat that points well, and is very sea-kindly in a sea-state. Seas around the Horn can be very confused, the southern oceans have been known to be extremely ferocious...or you could have a transit that is just cake with beautiful weather! However, it's best to expect the worst and prepare your boat for the worst.

For the Horn route, I think you'd want a PROVEN offshore boat. I must admit that I am very predjudiced towards true full-keelers, for an assortment of reasons. But amongst the boats on your admittedly wide-ranging list, the Valiant 40 comes with VERY high regard as an offshore boat. They're not a full keel, but are well-built, point well, are fast and sea-kindly. I've seen them for as low as $65,000. Another similar boat is the Crealock 37, also highly regarded. Or Tayana 37 too. 

Of course, I like full-keelers, so I'd have to add Ingrid 38 or Alajuela 38 to the short-list in your chosen size range. Their ketch rigs really come in handy for heaving-to, a handy thing for the southern oceans. Their long keels also add to their tracking, and I personally think that because of their longer keels, they may be better suited to clawing off a lee shore when needed, no small matter in a remote location. Others may disagree on this last point. 

Whatever you get, just make sure that the boat is FULLY prepped for knock-downs and capsizing. Strong, secure brackets for ALL batteries. Always think what will happen if upside down until she rights herself. Plugs for all cowl vents. Dorade vents should have interior screw-in plate covers. Manual bilge pump that you can work from the cabin. Second manual bilge pump workable in cockpit. One pair of large cable-cutters and one pair of bolt-cutters, both greased and readily accessible at all times during open passage. I keep both of mine strapped to the underside of the lazerette hatch lids when underway. I also reccomend a sharp knife in a sheath strapped to each mast, always ready to use in an emergency. Second fore-stay and a second set of upper shrouds on separate chain-plates is ALWAYS someting I recommend for all boats going offshore, and southern oceans CAN sometimes be as offshore as you can get, with seas sometimes to 70 feet, and blows that last for 5 days or more sustained.

Your boat needs to be prepared...YOU need to be prepared. It is no trivial matter. Pick your boat well. It's less about comfort and more about sea-worthiness...which literally means: a boat that is WORTHY of the sea. Many are not.


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## Stillraining

Mine!


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## phboujon

Hi SoulVoyage,

Thanks for the reply. I had actually asked a very similar question (minus the horn part) and had gotten too many boats, so I thought the reverse question would help me. While it didn't help much to shorten the list of boats, I got a lot of great answers on how to prepare the boat, and I appreciate that.

After much research, and visiting of boats, we have settled on finding a Morgan 382 / 383 / 384 offshore equipped.

Valiant 40 were in our top 3, but too expensive. With our budget for the boat <80K, we wouldnt have found one that didn't need tremendous work which we wouldnt be able to do within 1.5-2 years. 

Tayana 37 were in our top 3 as well p 3, but we didn't like the heavy teak. Those without teak deck were too expensive as well.

Morgan 38x hit the sweet spot. However, not many are sold equipped and in great condition andso we are researching.

Our route will not take us through the horn. We are thinking to do a x of the South Pacific before to take the panama canal, yet we'll aim to prepare the boat (and the crew) as much as we can and more.

Thanks again for your answer

Philippe


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