# Thoughts on Schooners



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Hi all,
There is a 40' Schooner I was looking at which has been cocooned with glass and USCG inspected. Very traditional, aside from fully enclosed wheelhouse. Also very heavily rigged, looks like it could be pushed into freight service once the worlds oil runs out  
My questions are; any one sail these? Do they go to windward at all? What about resale value? 
I consider myself a die hard sailor, sailing in snow, gales, calms whenever I can, but this appears a rare and unique challenge. More sails than a ketch, two masts, huge sprit, huge everything. 
Thoughts appreciated.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Definitely specialist survey material. You are asking some right questions, but not what I would consider the most important ones:

What kind of sailing do you intend on doing?

How competent a sailor are you personally? Do you have competent crew? How many? A schooner can be a difficult vessel to manage, particularly with a gaff-rigged sailplan.

Does "very traditional" mean manila cordage, gaff-rigged, bronze sheaves, Spanish windlass, etc.? Does "very traditional" mean a tiny engine, one battery, oil lamps? Very traditional to me is a red flag, because while I admire it, I admire it from afar. I want light, strong, modern materials and devices, because I can't pay eight guys two dollars a day to run my boat.

Schooners are downwind machines. They point worse than ketches, and can, if not tacked in an orderly fashion, miss stays. On the other hand, on a reach they are generally very impressive, but again, "traditional rigging" is complex and usually heavier than current equipment.

If you decide to proceed, you want someone who knows how to evaluate all the "trad" bits, plus what I presume is the cold-moulded fibreglass exterior, plus evaluate the state of the wooden frames, stringers, boards, etc.

Not my first choice, but then steel is not the first choice of others, either. If Don Street of _Iolaire _fame is reachable by e-mail (I don't know if he's still at sea...he must be past 80...), he might be a help.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

This boat really has a current Certificate of Inspection from the Coast Guard to carry passengers and freight?

If so, it's a rare bird. Lots of sailboats carry passengers, but I recall none of the recent efforts to carry freight for hire by sail have worked out.

But if built to USCG certification standards, then it was well-built to begin with (collision bulkhead, watertight subdivision, etc) so the question is what kind of condition she's in now, hull, rigging, sails. A good schooner will go to windward okay, it's just that you've got one big mainsail to handle, so you need more crew than with a ketch. And cargo hold space is limited on sailing ships, especially in 40'LOA.

Beyond that, it's a business decision. Can you make money carrying freight? Logically, it should work, since you wouldn't spend much on fuel. And you'd be talking about coastwise dry cargo that isn't time-critical (lumber??) Practically, I just don't know. I think if it were economically feasible, it would be happening already.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

To clarify a bit, the USCG inspection was for commercial fishing. I'm not sure what that entails. It certainly doesn't have water tight compartments, life rafts etc you would see on a passenger vessel. I also mentioned "freight service" in a metaphorical way, as she as the appearance of being a work boat, cargo hatch included. As for "traditional" I should have said traditional lines. The boat was first built in the 1920's, so it is narrow beam, plumb bow. Not sure its exact pedigree. It has been modified and modernized, with the addition of a well equipped pilot house, 40hp diesel, winches, jib tracks etc... She is a staysail gaff rigged schooner, but I was told there is also a main to use without the gaff. The owner did say he singlehanded her, however there are no engine controls in the cockpit, so docking wouldn't be easy. 
Right price, right time, right size.. but is it the right boat? I was frustrated by my current boats upwind ability this summer, so maybe not a good idea. Also, the wood construction and glass, although professional and appearantly very solid is a huge negative for maintenance and resale. The displacement is upwards of 40,000lbs. It would suit me well for gulf of Alaska and inside passage. Due to its long waterline, over 7 knots under power are achievable, which would open up trips difficult with my current boat at 6 knots max. This would also be a liveaboard boat. It has ample berthing and storage. 
There are enough serious questions for me to shelve the idea, but there is always next spring. I waited 6 months to buy my current boat, which knocked $12,000 off the price so no need to jump on it. Thanks for the advice.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

I think the ancient phrase was "coastwise trade and mackerel fishery", which covers both freight, fish, and passengers, I think. I don't think there's a future in carrying freight by sail (though I wish otherwise), but there may be in passengers or fish. I guess this is a decision you'd have to make yourself. Best of luck, whichever way it goes..


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

I confess a soft-spot for schooners. I know about the disadvantage of the rig upwind -- I just like the way they look, at least the traditional ones. However, your statement that it "has been cocooned with glass" would make me hesitate. Search the threads here on Sailnet -- Robert Gainer has cautioned about the inadvisability of sheathing older wooden boats in 'glass.

Here is a link to some info on the schooner Shariri -- a Chapelle design I've often admired:

http://www.harbouryachtsales.com/Pages/page183.html


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I love the look of a Schooner but they suck upwind. If you're gonna play in the trades or beam reach a lot, they'll fly. They sure look sweet though.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

As much as I love wooden boats it sounds like a money pit! Just the size of it would be intimidating to the even some of the best equipped wooden boat builders/restorers. Not my biz to ask. but I will! Can you afford such a venture? Buying it would only be the start of a very, very expensive relationship. The spars alone would be a small fortune to maintain! All that aside.. got any pictures of the wrea... errr boat? One thing good about AK.. you have access to lots of timber/lumber!


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

The question has to be do you want to go sailing or do you want to spend the next few years of your life rebuilding a boat ? Amazingly enough there are people out there in la la land who would choose the latter. 

Having partially restored a 40' timber boat some years back you need to figure out two things...

How Long will it take ? Worst case scenario ? Then double it.

How much will it cost ? Worst case scenario ? Then double it. 

It will then take you longer and cost you even more. It will probably break your heart into the bargain. If you are married, factor in the cost of the divorce. 

There is little in this world to compare with the sight of a bluff bow gaff schooner scooting along under a full press of sail. Glorious. Uplifting. no finer image known to man. Spectacular. 

To watch. 

Someones elses boat. 

ps - 40' is a bit small for a schooner, they need waterline to over come the inefficiency of the rig.


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## FishSticks (Nov 16, 2007)

This rig works for me. I've had my wood schooner for 45 years and intend to keep her going a good deal longer. All gaff, just four lowers. Easy to single-hand, although she's just 33 ft. If you're in a hurry to get to weather, put on the biggest jib you can, sheet everything in and turn on your iron jib with just enough throttle to keep her high. Otherwise keep her full and by, sit back, and enjoy the ride.

Check out the website of the American Schooner Association.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

FishSticks said:


> This rig works for me. Had my wood schooner for 45 years and hopefully will keep her going a good deal more. All gaff, just four lowers. Easy to single-hand, although she's just 33 ft. When you go to weather, put on the biggest jib you can, sheet everything in and turn on your iron jib.
> 
> Check out the website of the American Schooner Association.


lol

I should have said in my previous post "waterline and a great big iron jib to over come the inefficiency of the rig".

It's horses for courses. Bloke in the bay around from us has an old converted lifeboat. Gaff rigged sloop . His time is spent meandering down the harbour to another little bay just inside Sydney Heads where he drops anchor, does a spot of fishing blah de blah de blah. Occasionally has been known to go for a wander up or down the coast but he doesn't spend a lot of time actually sailing.

More of a motor sailor than an auxillary.

It's fabulous sitting at anchor nearby and looking at the thing but rather him than me.

On the other hand if you were to compare the Womboat to say, Alex's Giuletta then we would become the slowpoke inefficient sailors. All things in this world are a compromise, I'm afraid.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Me I love em , Im a sucker for the classic look of the schooner and Ive crewed on a couple of them . Got married on one . They are a lot of work but a lot of fun and they seem to attract and bring out the best in folk . Im also a bloody pathetic romantic . Best ask yourself what you plan on doing with that boat before you release your greenbacks.


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## FishSticks (Nov 16, 2007)

Doesn't matter what you plan to do with her. If she's in decent shape, pick her up and give her another life. Schooners can do all kinds of work, go anywhere and look good at the same time. Out here on the east coast we even have a schooner-rigged tugoat.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I see .

So if your planning to solo sail , against currents , against wind , against time constraints and explore shallow water a schooner is just as good as any other boat ?


righteeeooooo


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## sailandoar (Mar 20, 2006)

Could be great and exciting. Send pictures!!!!

Schooners are not harder to handle, it's just that nearly everyone has forgotten how. At LOD:40' and total SA 1072 ft-sq we are set for single handing.

CG inspection for fishing is probably not a reliable indicator of inspect ability for any other endeavor other than perhaps freight, but with freight the vessel will need pass survey to be insured and I would not want to assign cargo to a questionable/uninsured vessel unless it were perhaps a hold full of styrofoam floats. Fisherman are being regulated to death but still have much more latitude than vessels that carry passengers for hire.


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## Gary M (May 9, 2006)

A good friend of mine purchased a 36 foot schooner from the east coast about 3 years ago. It was built in the 30s by a very well known yard and of course had a survey.

I started out helping him repair the hull. After 2 years he hired a boat yard to do it. They told him because of the iron fastening that all of the planks and some of the ribs needed to be replaced. Since they were going to be doing the work I an not sure I trust them. However all planks were stripped off and several ribs replaced. He is hoping to launch some time next year. I am really glad it is his pocket book and not mine.

My son has experience crewing and rigging a 120 foot schooner so we can both hardly wait to help rig it and start sailing her. It will be truly beautiful when done and good for a lot of years. However the cost I am sure is way higher that originally anticipated.

Gary


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## FishSticks (Nov 16, 2007)

Unfortunately, wooden boats are available in two categories; those in need of restoration and those in the process of decay. This even applies to schooners. If this boat has serious problems, you might try this: Offer double the asking price in return for an agreement that the seller will bear half the cost of restoration over the next five years.

Seriously, if this schooner was built in the 20's and she's living in cold water, she's likely a fine vessel. Just be prepared to give her the care she needs.


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## danjarch (Jun 18, 2007)

I love them, but my opion is that unless your really wealthy or have a plan to get the boat to generate some revenue to off set the costs, you'd be better off sticking to fiber glass. If you could find a traditional looking replica in fiber glass or metal then have at it. The costs of matianing an older boat can be killer. One schooner I worked on had its fire pump crap out. It took hours of phone calls to find one that could replace it with out totally redesigning the system and it was $2500 for it. That's whats going to eat you to pieces. There are parts and pieces on that boat that will have to be replaced or repaired, and west marine dosn't carry them. 
The wood under glass is the scariest part. If the wood was in good shape and the glass was done to preserve it, you may have a nice boat. Usually the glassing is done to patch up rotten wood though. 
Schooners sail resonbly well to wind but be prepaired to be past by just about every thing else. A 1920's boat is deffently going to be slow. Good luck either way.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Hi all,
> There is a 40' Schooner I was looking at which has been cocooned with glass and USCG inspected.


 Personally, I don't like this BUT there are a lot of boats out there like that and they seem to do well.


> Very traditional, aside from fully enclosed wheelhouse. Also very heavily rigged, looks like it could be pushed into freight service once the worlds oil runs out


They are beautiful and very seaworthy craft. 


> My questions are; any one sail these? Do they go to windward at all? What about resale value?


I had a "West-system' cold-moulded schooner for some years. Smaller - 30 ft. - but Gaff and topsail rigged with staysails up the yin-yang. Loved her ! Cruised all over the Maritimes, in some very heavy weather. No engine, one battery, a compass and sometimes we had some soggy charts and a VHF. Origo stove, Coleman cooler and oil lamps.

If you are not wanting to race PHRF, then I think that you will be very happy with a schooner rig. The windward ability is a very subjective quality and differs wildly depending on rig layout and hull shape. While it is a little more work to fly all the canvas at the same time, in the real world, you are not likely to do that often. The boats can carry enough canvas to move in light winds, but that is the only time you'll fly everything.

The huge bonus I found with my schooner was that I didn't reef more than once or twice in about ten years. There is always some combination of sails that can be found to hank on that will balance the boat nicely and get some way on.


> I consider myself a die hard sailor, sailing in snow, gales, calms whenever I can, but this appears a rare and unique challenge. More sails than a ketch, two masts, huge sprit, huge everything.
> Thoughts appreciated.


I think it's probably an ideal boat for you. The two concerns I would have would be:

Do you have the time and money to maintain her ? More rigging, more sails, longer and wider boat, bigger lines, anchors, everythings. If she is in beautiful shape and you can't keep her there, then leave her for someone who can. If you can keep her up, then give her a good home.

The condition of the hull. Has she ever been in freshwater ?? For how long ?? What was the hull fastened with ?? How long since it was refastened ?? If there are rusty nails holding it together, themselves being held in place by a thin layer of glass outside, you have a big problem. Very few of those boats were screwed together. Freshwater is easier on the findings but it is harder on the wood, saltwater "pickles" wood but fresh water eats it away. It can easily cost more to repair an old hull than it would cost to build a new one.

There is a boatyard in Nova Scotia called COVEY ISLAND BOATWORKS that may be able to give you some good ideas and advice. They specialise in composite boats and have a lot of experience with traditional craft repair.

Good Luck and hope everything works out !


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Sounds like a great traditional boat, but probably alot of work. Show us some pictures!

-Spencer


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I think they're beautiful to watch, but require more crew than I think I'd want.


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## sailandoar (Mar 20, 2006)

*Richard Hudson's schooner web site*

Check out Richard Hudson's web site, with his personal schooner stories and his notes on sailing small schooners!! His current boat is a sister ship to our pinky schooner and I have been fortunate to sail with him in last two Great Chesapeake Bay Schooner Races.
http://www.issuma.com/rhudson/

********************************

*Notes on Sailing Small Schooners* by R. Hudson

These notes are written as a basic introduction to some of the techniques of sailing small gaff schooners. They represent my opinion, which was developed sailing several kinds of rigs, mostly small, gaff-rigged schooners. I wrote them becuase I remember how much learning I had to do when I got my first schooner (I'd sailed schooners and brigantines before that, but had mostly sailed sloops for the many years directly prior), and how much I wanted instructions then.

These notes are intended for people who know how to sail, but are not that familiar with schooners. This is not an introduction to gaff rigs (Tom Cunliffe's book, Hand, Reef & Steer is highly recommended for those unfamiliar with gaffers).

Not everyone who sails schooners will agree with all these points. Different vessels have different characteristics. Different experiences will influence opinions, and what I've written is what works for me on the vessels I've sailed.
.................. http://www.issuma.com/rhudson/RR/SchoonerSailingNotes.htm


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## FishSticks (Nov 16, 2007)

From _The World was Thirty-five Feet Long_ in Joe Garland's book of short stories, _Beating to Windward._

_"_This was *Bandit* weather. She lay into it. Easy along on that port hitch, a real close reach, kept her lee rail dry, threw off a spatter of spray every now and then, but never a drop aboard except once when a teaspoonfull ran down a sneaker.

Did she lay into it? I hope to tell you. The suds all white and asparkle in the glint of the westing sun frothed by, and they fizzed like sody water, and dipped down so gracefully under the caress of her counter, swooping back up from the hull lines to meet the wake of rudder-boiled bubbles."


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I had written this for another venue but it does talk about the schooner rig. I did want to talk about the sequence of raising sails noted above. In my experence with schooners, most traditional schooners will not sail well with only their foresails, tending to pay off the wind if only the foresail. The schooners that I have sailed on the mainsail is hoisted first which holds the boat up into the wind with each sail starting aft and moving forward hoisted in succession. It is only once the jibs have been hoisted that the boats balance at all and can be tacked reliably. On the schooners that I have sailed on, as the wind builds they developed wicked weather helm requiring that the mainsails be reefed first and then the foresail struck. Jibs were struck last. Because of the nature of the gaff rig, the mainsail was dropped fully to put in a reef. This meant dropping the jibs as well and close reaching with the foresail. Reefing was abig deal compared to reefing a modern boat. While small schooners can be sailed short handed, and even really big schooners could be sailed with only a 'man and a boy', these are not exactly benevolent rigs to sail short-handed.

Lastly the boat that you are looking at has been encapsulated in Fiberglass which is normally a quick fix for a dying boat that in the long run is a death sentence for a carvel planked wooden boat. 

Respectfully,

Jeff

_"Schooners do only one thing really well, they provide a lot of drive on a reach for the amount of heeling that they induce. They do not point and they do not run. But used on a boat with a lot of drag for its stability and the schooner is a great rig. _

_Schooners, more than any of the other fore and aft rigs, are really a series of rigs. They vary from the modern unstayed cat schooners (like the Freedom 39), to Fengers experiments with wishbone schooners, to the traditional two masted, gaff rigged schooners, to the early 19th century square topsail schooners, to the knockabout and the staysail schooners of the late 1930's, to the 4, 5 and 6 masted cargo schooners of the late 19th and early 20th century. Each of these have distinct advantages and disadvantages. More than any other rig, each schooner will have its own unique sailing characteristics and will require its sailors to develop skills to deal with each specific boats unique sailing requirements. These are by no means easy rigs to handle well, and require probably the most skill to sail safely of all of the rigs. It is often forgotten that 19th century professional sailors went through a rigourous apprenticeship and that by modern standards they suffered and unacceptably large percentage of boats lost and crewmen lost or maimed._

_Schooners in one form or another, have been around for a very long time. Like most multi-masted rigs, they evolved in the days when breaking a rig into a lot of smaller sails made sense. Multi-masted rigs resulted in a rig with a greater number of smaller low aspect ratio sails. These proportionately smaller sails reduced stretch within the individual sails, made it easier to manhandle the sails and make sail shape adjustments. This was a time before before winches, light weight- low stretch sail cloth, high strength- low stretch line, and low friction blocks. In the days before these important advances these proportionately smaller sails powered up less in a gust as compared to having larger sails. While multiple small sails are less efficient, the hulls of the era were so inefficient that this loss of sail efficiency did not hurt much. _

_Multiple masts, along with bowsprits and boomkins, allowed boats to have more sail area that could be spread out closer to the water. In a time when stone internal ballasting was the norm, this was important as it maximized the amount of drive while minimizing heeling moments. Multiple masts meant a little more luff length, and this increased luff length meant greater drive force on a reach or close reach. But multiple masts also meant more weight aloft and much more aerodynamic drag, increasing heel some and greatly reducing the relative efficiency of the sails. _

_Multi mast rigs also have the issue of downdraft interference, meaning that each sail is operating in the disturbed and turbulent air of the sails upwind of it, which also further greatly reduces the efficiency of multi mast rigs because this meant that each sail was inherrently less effective than the sail upwind of it; think of this as beding like permanently sailing in the lee of another boat._

_Schooners are best suited for high drag, burdensome vessels with comparatively little stability. They are best used in sailing venues where they predominantly will be reaching between 30 degrees above a beam reach to approximately 50 degrees below a beam reach. Because of the geometry and inherently high drag of the schooner rig they are not very good rigs upwind or down. Upwind, the large amount of aerodynamic drag from the spars and, in stayed rigs, rigging, coupled with the low aspect ratio sails typical of a schooner rig, and the down draft problems of a multi-masted rig, results in very poor windward perforance. When compared with Yawls that can drop thier mizzen when beating without much consequence, a Schooners primary drive sail(s) are acting in the wind shadow of the entire rig. _

_Probably the highest upwind efficiency is achieved in schooners with lug foresails. On a schooner, lug foresails are not actually 'lug rigged'. In the case or a schooner, the term 'lug foresail' means a gaff foresail (not a jib) and that foresail over laps the mainsail in much the same manner as a genoa over laps the mast on a modern rig. This rig was common in American working craft in the 19th century and was popular because there was no boom to deal with on the working deck. It was used on such boats as the yacht America's original rig, Tancock Whalers and on many Atlantic coast pilot boats. Lug foresails need to be tacked around the mast in much the same manner as a genoa is today. _

_Downwind the problem of downdraft interference is a major problem as well. The large mainsail again tends to block the air on the sails forward of it and schooners really do not have a tall forward mast on which to fly a meaningful spinnaker. While there are all kinds of kites that can be flown from a schooner, and early working schooners often carried square sails on their foremasts, most of these attempts at trying to improve downwind performance really come into their own on a reach. _

_Because of the proportions of the rig, in many if not most cases, it is also quite difficult to get a schooner to hove to with any reliability without reefing the mainsail and dropping the foresail to the deck. _

_I once had a great conversation with Olin Stephens about schooners. Someone had asked why the schooner rig had died out. In the course of the conversation it was pretty much concluded that as hull forms became increasingly efficient, the inherrent lack of efficiency of the schooner rig not keep up with the increased hull efficiency. Great efforts at all kinds of schooner rig improvements were tried but in the end the inherent limitations of the schooner rig was ill matched to the improved hull forms of the early 20th century._

_Today, traditional schooners are wonderful to look at relics of a bygone age. Traditional forms of the schooner rig are complicated rigs that are expensive to build and maintain. They generally lack the strength of staying of a more modern rig. They are limited in their ability to beat to windward, hove to, or go dead downwind. They require greater skill to sail well and are pretty labor intensive to sail in shifting conditions. Still there is nothing like the romance of gaff topsail schooner with a bone in her teeth. "_


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Was out this past summer and had the Black Seal, a three-mast schooner along side me... the captain pointed out that he definitely needed more crew than me. Here's a photo of her taken with a pocket P&S digital camera.


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## SchoonerFred (Nov 22, 2007)

*Schooners*

There are really two threads here, one about old wood boats with fiberglass coverings, and one on the sailing qualities of schooners.
I have sailed on schooners for at least a thousand (or two) days, small up to 110' on deck. I have also done a very comfortable trans-Atlantic on a 1929 50' schooner (only 4 of us and the youngest was 58).
The idea that a schooner needs more crew is contrary to one of the reasons they were designed. Two masts (or more) means you can have smaller sails for a given total of sail area. Old fishing and cargo schooners had relatively small crews. One or two larger sails takes more crew to put up than 4 to 8 smaller sails - unless you want to put them all up at once. The big fishing schooners can put up 8000 feet of sail with a main that is less than 2700 square ft. - much easier than putting up a 6000 ft main. 
More sails means the boat can be balanced more easily under reduced sail conditions.
There are slow boats having all sail plans. The idea that schooners are inherently slow under any point of sail is not quite right. If you want to see modern examples of schooners, look at the transAtlantic monohull record book - see the 140 foot schooner Mari-Cha IV, it crossed the Atlantic in less than a week. Check out the schooner Phocea.

Fixing up an old boat is not easy. Fiberglass on the outside of a hull may save a boat for a while but encourages rot on the wood/glass interface, unless the inside is very dry or the wood is totally enclosed.
Figuring out the time it takes is easy, you take your best estimate, double it and go to the next higher unit. For example a 5 minute job is 10 hours, a 4 hour job is 8 days, a 2 week job is 4 months, 3 months is 6 years. It is easy once you get the hang of it.

Schooner Fred


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

SchoonerFred-

A 50' three-masted schooner is going to require more crew than a 28' sloop. That is just a fact of nature... I can single hand a 28' sloop without any trouble... I doubt that even a small schooner like the Black Seal can really be single-handed.


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## Tartan34C (Nov 21, 2006)

JeffH said,
"Schooners do only one thing really well, they provide a lot of drive on a reach for the amount of heeling that they induce. They do not point and they do not run. But used on a boat with a lot of drag for its stability and the schooner is a great rig.” 

I beg to differ based on both the historical record and my own experience. They point as well as almost any split rig and no boat sails best dead downwind and the concept of sailing with the wind on the quarter to improve performance was understood as far back as the origins of the split rig itself. And why compare any rig on a sharp hull with a rig on a hull with a lot of drag? Lets stick to comparing apples to apples. The schooner rig works very well on a sharp hull and you don’t need to look farther to find example of fast hulls with the rig then to look at boats like the America or in fact any of the pilot boats built with the schooner rig. In fact if you need a fast weatherley boat that can be handled by a short crew the schooner is one of the best. The banks fishing boats are proof of that. A large able boat that could be handled by the Captain, boy and cook while the crew was in the dories fishing. And some of them in the later years of their popularity were designed by the most successful racing boat designers of the times, designers such as Starling Burgess and William J. Roue.

JeffH went on to say,
“These are by no means easy rigs to handle well, and require probably the most skill to sail safely of all of the rigs.”

As is usually the case when someone doesn’t understand something it presents problems compared to things they do understand and this is an example of that axiom. I would think the extreme tea clippers would be more of a handful but on a more reasonable size a large catamaran would be more of a problem then a schooner.

JeffH also says,
“Schooners in one form or another, have been around for a very long time. Like most multi-masted rigs, they evolved in the days when breaking a rig into a lot of smaller sails made sense.” Snip,

The schooner is a relative newcomer among varies rigs and was first seen around 1600 in Holland. 

Continue
“Multi-masted rigs resulted in a rig with a greater number of smaller low aspect ratio sails. These proportionately smaller sails reduced stretch within the individual sails, made it easier to manhandle the sails and make sail shape adjustments. This was a time before before winches, light weight- low stretch sail cloth, high strength- low stretch line, and low friction blocks. In the days before these important advances these proportionately smaller sails powered up less in a gust as compared to having larger sails. While multiple small sails are less efficient, the hulls of the era were so inefficient that this loss of sail efficiency did not hurt much.”

I think you are applying modern thoughts and concerns to a world where they don’t apply. All split rigs started at a time when boats were small and as the boats evolved into larger ships the issues became deferent but at that point the issues have nothing to do with the how and why of the original need for the split rig. The early split rigs were devolved to overcome the problems with rudders and other steering system when they were being first used and perfected. The early steering systems were little more then trim tabs to fine tune the direction. The bulk of steering was done by sail trim and having masts ahead and behind the center of lateral plane was the best way to have the greatest influence on balance. Offhand I can’t think of any split rig that didn’t come into being for the same reason.

JeffH then goes on to say,
“Multiple masts, along with bowsprits and boomkins, allowed boats to have more sail area that could be spread out closer to the water. In a time when stone internal ballasting was the norm, this was important as it maximized the amount of drive while minimizing heeling moments. Multiple masts meant a little more luff length, and this increased luff length meant greater drive force on a reach or close reach. But multiple masts also meant more weight aloft and much more aerodynamic drag, increasing heel some and greatly reducing the relative efficiency of the sails.”

The bowsprit was added very late in the development of rigs and was first used on larger boats. It was clearly used to aid the small rudder. As boats became larger the rudder continued to shrink as a percentage of the lateral plane and sail trim became more important. This trend continued until the early 1900’s believe it or not. Look at the size of the rudder on a clipper ship if you want a shock. As a percentage of the lateral plane it is a fraction of the size used on a sailboat designed to the CCA rule. You are right about the affect on stability when you distribute the sail area down low instead of up high. When boats became large enough that this was an issue the height of the rig was limited by materials and available hardware. If we confine this discussion to for and aft rigged boats the height of the rig was limited until the invention of sailtrack. But at the same time you could get the same sail area with a single mast on any boat in the size range we are considering. Split rigs were not needed or designed to overcome any area restrictions.

JeffH continues with,
“Multi mast rigs also have the issue of downdraft interference, meaning that each sail is operating in the disturbed and turbulent air of the sails upwind of it, which also further greatly reduces the efficiency of multi mast rigs because this meant that each sail was inherrently less effective than the sail upwind of it; think of this as beding like permanently sailing in the lee of another boat.”

This is the case in any split rig. It’s not a real problem and if it were we would all be sailing catboats without any headsails at all. You just need to understand the interaction of the sails and both trim the boat correctly and sail on a suitable course given the characteristics of each boat.

JeffH now goes back to discussing hull form and drag.
“Schooners are best suited for high drag, burdensome vessels with comparatively little stability. They are best used in sailing venues where they predominantly will be reaching between 30 degrees above a beam reach to approximately 50 degrees below a beam reach. Because of the geometry and inherently high drag of the schooner rig they are not very good rigs upwind or down. Upwind, the large amount of aerodynamic drag from the spars and, in stayed rigs, rigging, coupled with the low aspect ratio sails typical of a schooner rig, and the down draft problems of a multi-masted rig, results in very poor windward perforance. When compared with Yawls that can drop thier mizzen when beating without much consequence, a Schooners primary drive sail(s) are acting in the wind shadow of the entire rig. “

As I already said they work best on a well-designed hull and I see no advantage to joining a good rig to a poor hull. More then that, more stability is almost always better then less so why try for less stability? Also you over estimate the drag from the rig. It is no greater then the drag from any rig with the same size spars. For instance if you take a ketch or a yawl and reverse the rig it still has the same drag as before because the projected area is the same rigged as a schooner or as a ketch or yawl.

Then we read from JeffH,
“Because of the proportions of the rig, in many if not most cases, it is also quite difficult to get a schooner to hove to with any reliability without reefing the mainsail and dropping the foresail to the deck.”

Schooners do fine in bad weather and with suitable sails heave to just fine and in fact better then a modern fin-keel boat. 

Jeff also says,
“I once had a great conversation with Olin Stephens about schooners. Someone had asked why the schooner rig had died out. In the course of the conversation it was pretty much concluded that as hull forms became increasingly efficient, the inherrent lack of efficiency of the schooner rig not keep up with the increased hull efficiency. Great efforts at all kinds of schooner rig improvements were tried but in the end the inherent limitations of the schooner rig was ill matched to the improved hull forms of the early 20th century.”

I wasn’t a party to the conversation so I don’t know the details but the modern (other then fin) hull form was firmly established by 1893 with hulls designed by Watson and Herreshoff and didn’t change much until the fin, originally invented by Nat Herreshoff by the way, became popular. The schooner enjoyed great popularity in that time period. In commercial sail it was the preeminent rig for boats sailing with small crews and in that use didn’t disappear until engines replaced sail. As far as yachts went it didn’t become unpopular until the rating rule made the rig uncompetitive. It died out before the fin took over so it wasn’t a change in hull form that killed it but instead it was a change in rules that killed it for racing.


JeffH finishes by saying,
“Today, traditional schooners are wonderful to look at relics of a bygone age. Traditional forms of the schooner rig are complicated rigs that are expensive to build and maintain. They generally lack the strength of staying of a more modern rig. They are limited in their ability to beat to windward, hove to, or go dead downwind. They require greater skill to sail well and are pretty labor intensive to sail in shifting conditions. Still there is nothing like the romance of gaff topsail schooner with a bone in her teeth. "

Sailing itself is the relic of a bygone age. The schooner isn’t the problem but instead it’s the solution if you enjoy that style of sailing. Just like the catboat is the answer for catboat lovers and the ketch is the best choice for people that like the ketch. Each boat is different and each may be the best choice for those that sail in a style that takes advantage of the virtues of each individual type. A schooner can be as strong as any other boat and as far as he rest of your summation I think its been adequately covered already but I do agree with you about schooners being one of the most romantic of all the rigs.
All the best,
Robert Gainer


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

The mighty Astor on her way to taking line honours in the Sydney-Hobart. Late fifities I think it was. She did it a couple of times. Despite my misgivings about the rig on a small boat , she was and is my all time dream machine.


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

Now this is rough, but could be oh so preety.


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## FishSticks (Nov 16, 2007)

In last month's Great Chesapeake Bay Schooner Race three boats sailed the 127 mile course in under 12 hours. It was a broad reach all the way in a strong breeze. At the conclusion of the race, at the Pig Roast and Awards Ceremony in Portsmouth, VA, the participants, having arrived a day too soon, were able to spend plenty of time consoling one another about their inefficient schooner rigs. Preceding the race, most of these relics of a bygone era had lined the Broadway Pier, two deep, for several days, in Baltimore's Fells Point. So folks, thanks for your empathy when you feast your eyes on our old rigs, but we've found ways to manage our burden.

Jeff H and Robert Gainer are to be commended for taking the time to comment on sailing qualities. Jeff is right on when he points out that most traditional schooners sail best with the wind no more than 30 degrees ahead of the beam. I'll readily admit that my traditional gaff schooner is no match for most of the wooden boat racers when we are stemming the current with the wind on the nose from Castine to Camden. It's unfortunate that gaff-rigged schooners are now too rare to justify a separate racing class. So, I go to Gloucester and the Chesapeake and mingle with my own kind when I have the urge to compete. On a daysail, close reach out and broad reach back. Do what your boat does best. What could be more enjoyable?

Jeff had another point about shortening sail - the importance of using the main, and I agree. If you have the sea room when a nasty squall is coming, the easy thing in my little 33 footer is to drop everything but the foresail, and this works fine if you don't mind running off for a while. But if you need to make headway in a breeze, don't hesitate to get that main reefed. I have reefing lines leading back to the mast for the first and second reefs, and can manage this without dropping the main, even off the wind. You know you've got it right when you are broad-reaching offshore in a strong gusty autumn nor'wester, and the boat just starts surfing on the puffs, without any weather helm.

As for downwind sailing, Jeff, I don't understand the problem. I'm happy not messing with a spinnaker, and I really like the foregiveness of the gaff rig. Get her going wing and wing, with a reef or two in the main, and she practically steers herself. 

To those who believe the schooner rig requires too much crew: Maybe this idea has evolved because schooners, when spotted, are in fact often heavily manned or womanned. The real reason is they are so much fun to sail you can not keep them away.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Fishsticks-

Just curious... do you singlehand your boat... the captain of the three-masted schooner I had spoken to said he generally has four-to-five crew aboard, and that crew was needed to handle the boat he had. Granted it was a good deal larger than your 33' boat.


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## FishSticks (Nov 16, 2007)

Sailingdog-
I day sail quite often single-handed. Not that I don't like company. Problem is most of my closest friends also have old wooden boats, and we spend so much time maintaining them we feel we have to sail our own boats when we have the chance. If you are a Mass Bay sailor you might see some of us out on Stellwagen whale-watching once in a while. All single-handing in company.

A little schooner is pretty easy. Especially with my beloved Autohelm 4000 rigged onto my old truck steering gear.

When the captain of _Black Seal _said he needed all that crew, it might have been a ploy he was using to attract all those young folks.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Fishsticks-

I'll keep an eye out for you... I'm not up on Mass Bay most of the time... since I sail Buzzards Bay. What's the name of your boat?


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## FishSticks (Nov 16, 2007)

_Green Dragon_.

For more information on schooners, visit the American Schooner Association website, www.amschooner.org.


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