# The future of the sailing world. Why are there so few young people cruising??



## youmeandthed

I'm curious on opinions on this one. When Baby boomers were in their 20's there were lots of them in small capable sailboats (some they made themselves) cruising across oceans; but now-a-days the majority of twenty-year olds appear to be utterly useless. I just don't get it, and I'm in my twenties, and cruising.


I'm also curious as to where people think the future of the sailing industry is going if there are so few young people involved?

Any thoughts?


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## Allen-deckard

Economy sucks the young are being hit the hardest and in any form sailing is a luxury even in a smaller cheaper boat.

On the flip side young people want to go faster in everything they do and sailing will never fit that bill.

Sailing going noware reduced maybe but the allure of sailing will always be around and as full prices go up since we all know they will just a fact of things i think the fuel advantage will increase numbers. 

I kind of wonder if there won't be innovations that come from it things that make sailing even easier and more accessible and more motor sail boats.

My 2 cents


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## night0wl

College debt...

Last generation graduated with virtually none...this generation has a too much.


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## PaulinVictoria

You didn't see lots of people in their 20s cruising before, or since, that generation. The baby boomers had the world given to them on a plate so they took advantage. And of course screwed everything for generations to come but that's for a different forum


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## RichH

One must also consider that since the 'baby boom' generation the level of prosperity and the growth level of 'prosperity' has declined thus producing less 'disposable income', especially for those 'younger'. 

With the purposeful pursuit of (by whatever reason) a decreased 'industrialization' and its accompanying lessening of 'profits' producing 'disposable income' in forced decline ... no one should really be surprised. 

Id opt that those global areas where industrialization is rapidly growing, that those 'young' people have a greater and increasing measure or percent of 'disposable income' .... ie. sailing, skiing, ... 'leisure time', etc. etc. etc. are on the increase. The 'western world' is now essentially a service (servant) economy or is essentially 'flipping cash', while many other regions of the globe are rapidly expanding industrially and with its accompanying prosperity. The economic equilibrium of 'prosperity' has begun to rapidly shift away from the 'western' world to the 'developing' world. I wouldnt want to be a 'young person' in today's 'western world' with its apparently forced or self imposed reduction of 'opportunity'. From my narrow perspective, 'authoritarianism' and 'mob-rule democracy' usually and historically results in a declining level of the overall/average standard of living ... .


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## Capt.aaron

I moved on to my Grand fathers old sail boat when I was 18 because it was affordable housing. It was free. I had it out on the hook and worked in town. It was all I could afford. He had taught me how to use it so I started sailing around to places with a decent anchorage and little town to work in. That was 23 years ago. still have the boat on the hook and I live on when I'm not at sea on other boats. I see a lot of 20 somethings doing the same thing and hope more and more realize there is a surplus of baby boomer boats up for grabs. It's buyers market, look at that 16 year old kid from the other thead, he got one for free.


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## youmeandthed

Agreed that standards of living are going down, BUt I can afford a way better life here in Panama and can scratch by with some work online. 

I'm thinking it has a lot to do with inflated expectations for a higher than deserved standard of living, hence people who are almost thirty living with their parents, growing up in a zero failure world (which is not a good way to encourage hard work), and the expectation that the world owes them something (careers, high standards of living, education)

It really isn't a financial thing (I've been on both sides of the fence: student debt, long term unemployment, lacked a real job) and cruising, you have no money either way.

AMEX came out with a survey showing that young people spend tons of money on travel and luxury goods. It must be a mental thing. The ocean is pretty intimidating, not big snowboard jump intimidating, but kill you if it decides to intimidating. I'm guessing backpacking and all-inclusives are just easier to do.


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## WDS123

I'll Argus that Boats have Become bigger and more complex. 

The 20 something's of yore might have sailed a Lido 14 with other young couples. When they were in their 30s, they bought a "cruising" boat - perhaps a Schock 25 ftr. Just enough to weekend. By the time they were in their 50s, they had made the big plunge and moved up to a huge boat - a Santana 30.


These days, a 30 ftr is sold as a 'tiny' boat.


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## RichH

WDS123 said:


> I'll Argus that Boats have Become bigger and more complex.
> 
> The 20 something's of yore might have sailed a Lido 14 with other young couples. When they were in their 30s, they bought a "cruising" boat - perhaps a Schock 25 ftr. Just enough to weekend. By the time they were in their 50s, they had made the big plunge and moved up to a huge boat - a Santana 30.
> 
> These days, a 30 ftr is sold as a 'tiny' boat.


Totally agree with that. If you look at any Sail Mag. it appears that 'starter' boats are 40ft. and costing a minor fortune.

The same plunge in youth participation happened in skiing. A full 'outfit' would cost well over $2000 for top quality stuff. And then, SnoBoarding arrived, was 1/5 -1/10th the price for the equipment and the dying 'snowsports' industry made a dramatic comeback ... until the price of a lift ticket met the resurgent enthusiasm and the snowsports industry is going through another decline simply because its too damn expensive for 'young-uns' to afford.

So who makes a reasonably priced modest entry level sailboat? ... virtually no one, simply because the ROI for the manufacturers is too slim. Even a 14ft. rowing dink far exceeds the cost of my first reasonably equipped '30 footer' of 40 years ago.


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## Yankee

Don't underestimate the young folks. One of them will develop a sailing "app" for their smart phones and all will be right with the world..................


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## jrd22

"The baby boomers had the world given to them on a plate so they took advantage. "
"College debt...
Last generation graduated with virtually none...this generation has a too much. "

I guess I must have been standing in the wrong line, didn't even get the plate... and apart from a few trust fund types, every boomer I know has worked their a$$es off their whole life.
Apparently there are a lot of recent college graduates that are just starting to realize that college loans need to be repaid, and with the job market so bad I'm sure this is somewhat of a contributing factor, how much I don't know. 
I'm sitting here writing this while looking at my son's beautiful cruising boat out on our mooring, while he's working hard to make ends meet for his family, and doesn't even have time to use it (and we all know how the market is for trying to sell a boat now). IMO, it's entirely the economy and high unemployment rate that is reducing the number of younger people that are cruising.


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## Capt.aaron

New boat's are for the well off, period. All the used boats out there are for the young'ns and less off. $2500, a trip to the used boat equipment store and some elbow grease is all you need to get a good little 30 foot sloop.


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## SloopJonB

Allen-deckard said:


> Economy sucks the young are being hit the hardest and in any form sailing is a luxury even in a smaller cheaper boat.


Spot on - they don't have reliable, well paid employment so they are unwilling to commit to a long term financial involvement. Much easier to buy high tech toys that can move with them if (when) they lose their McJob.



> On the flip side young people want to go faster in everything they do and sailing will never fit that bill.


I don't know about that - the BB were the ones that muscle cars were manufactured for but they still bought lots of sailboats too.

There are lots of kids that like sailing, they just can't afford the commitment.


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## SloopJonB

PaulinVictoria said:


> You didn't see lots of people in their 20s cruising before, or since, that generation. The baby boomers had the world given to them on a plate so they took advantage. And of course screwed everything for generations to come but that's for a different forum


Gen X'er I presume?


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## rbrasi

To add to yankee's point, nothing can compete with the xbox/play station. those things are like heroin for kids.


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## Capt.aaron

Ironically, it was the only thing i could afford to do. On a good day my boat has never been worth more that $5,000. I inheritad it, but none the less, What if i paid the price of a good used car for it and moved a board. When I was 23, I had no rent, no bills, none! food, but i deliverd tacos on my bike and ate at the resturaunt, but other than that none!! because I lived on a little sloop in the bay behind Miami beach. When i didn't have any money to enjoy town, i would go sailing, it was free, still is.


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## SloopJonB

WDS123 said:


> I'll Argus that Boats have Become bigger and more complex.
> 
> The 20 something's of yore might have sailed a Lido 14 with other young couples. When they were in their 30s, they bought a "cruising" boat - perhaps a Schock 25 ftr. Just enough to weekend. By the time they were in their 50s, they had made the big plunge and moved up to a huge boat - a Santana 30.
> 
> These days, a 30 ftr is sold as a 'tiny' boat.


Agreed - I routinely see 35' - 38' boats listed as "entry level". When was the last time any of you were on a cruising boat that had no "house" electrical system, only engine charging? Oil lamps are merely decoration now. All the comforts of home are expected before spending time on a boat now.

I blame the women.


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## SloopJonB

Capt.aaron said:


> New boat's are for the well off, period. All the used boats out there are for the young'ns and less off. $2500, a trip to the used boat equipment store and some elbow grease is all you need to get a good little 30 foot sloop.


That's true but you are also locked in to moorage, insurance, haulouts etc. etc.

Without secure, well paid employment, it's a commitment few are willing to make.


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## SloopJonB

jrd22 said:


> "The baby boomers had the world given to them on a plate so they took advantage. "
> "College debt...
> Last generation graduated with virtually none...this generation has a too much. "
> 
> I guess I must have been standing in the wrong line, didn't even get the plate... and apart from a few trust fund types, every boomer I know has worked their a$$es off their whole life.
> Apparently there are a lot of recent college graduates that are just starting to realize that college loans need to be repaid, and with the job market so bad I'm sure this is somewhat of a contributing factor, how much I don't know.


My wife & I were in that same line. 

College debt is WAY more than it was for us though. AFAIAC far too many people go to University these days - a degree has been rendered far less valuable and meaningful through this process - a bachelors degree is the new high school diploma and far too many of them are never used in any meaningful way. They are merely a very expensive entry on a resume.

University should be for scholars and academics, not "everyman" job training - it does a very poor job of that in most cases. Why should a car sales rep need a Bcomm degree? A Ba to be a realtor?


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## TQA

There are a few out here in the Eastern Carribbean including one US couple who bought an old Tartan 34 out here for less than $10k and are starting off on a two year adventure hopefully finishing up back in the USA before having to go back to work. 

I helped them fix their old Johnson and showed them how to cook breadfruit.

Talking about why they chose to do this they said they thought it would be safer than backpacking around the world.


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## Capt.aaron

SloopJonB said:


> That's true but you are also locked in to moorage, insurance, haulouts etc. etc.
> 
> Without secure, well paid employment, it's a commitment few are willing to make.


That's true< I lost my boat twice to yard's. had to borrow to get it back. The only insurance. I've ever had was good anchors , common sense, caution, and decent luck. Mind you my boat has sunk twice and knocked off it's stands in huricane Wilma. I anchor for free, except for the year spent at Miami beach Marina back in 1993 when it was 350 a month and some DYI live aboard yards, I've been on the hook for free. I have no systems so that makes it cheap.


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## youmeandthed

Funny thing is, my wife and I had such a hard time finding a career, working bad part time jobs that we decided to give it up and go sailing. We had no money then and we have no money now. We enjoy life 1000 times more now, and our peers are misserable and struggling to pay rents and live an unsustainable lifestyle of drinking and eating out, paying for ski lift tickets or boat rentals. They spend all their money on things that they never own or get to keep the utility of, and work to pay for it.

Debt is an issue, when it goes towards something that doesn't have a payout, like university right now.

The boomers I know who were cruising when they were in their twenties had nothing either...not many people in their earlier years have had anything in any generation, you work for it.



> That's true but you are also locked in to moorage, insurance, haulouts etc. etc.
> 
> Without secure, well paid employment, it's a commitment few are willing to make.


This is completely wrong: no one insures a $2500 boat, you live off the hook, and you use tidal grids or tracks once every 4 years to do the bottom, the rest of the time you dive on it.

I do agree with people being brain washed into thinking a 35ft boat is entry level


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## Capt Len

There may be more new poor sailors out there than you sea at your locked gate marina.Always a looked down upon minority by the well healed ,some will develop skills and finances to ride the crest. others bide their time till family or habits cause a movement (out or ?) OTOH when I go uptown to be met by a hoodi, stylin blue jeans and $150 runners with an Ipod whose greeting is Spare Change?' ,lack of sympathy wells in my heart. I mean, What ever happened to 'Whas up?' ?


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## youmeandthed

> OTOH when I go uptown to be met by a hoodi, stylin blue jeans and $150 runners with an Ipod whose greeting is Spare Change?' ,lack of sympathy wells in my heart. I mean, What ever happened to 'Whas up?' ?


We usually call those types drug dealers.


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## Capt.aaron

RichH said:


> One must also consider that since the 'baby boom' generation the level of prosperity and the growth level of 'prosperity' has declined thus producing less 'disposable income', especially for those 'younger'.
> 
> With the purposeful pursuit of (by whatever reason) a decreased 'industrialization' and its accompanying lessening of 'profits' producing 'disposable income' in forced decline ... no one should really be surprised.
> 
> Id opt that those global areas where industrialization is rapidly growing, that those 'young' people have a greater and increasing measure or percent of 'disposable income' .... ie. sailing, skiing, ... 'leisure time', etc. etc. etc. are on the increase. The 'western world' is now essentially a service (servant) economy or is essentially 'flipping cash', while many other regions of the globe are rapidly expanding industrially and with its accompanying prosperity. The economic equilibrium of 'prosperity' has begun to rapidly shift away from the 'western' world to the 'developing' world. I wouldnt want to be a 'young person' in today's 'western world' with its apparently forced or self imposed reduction of 'opportunity'. From my narrow perspective, 'authoritarianism' and 'mob-rule democracy' usually and historically results in a declining level of the overall/average standard of living ... .


HUH? ..........

No, that's all true, I think the point is to, rather than look at sailing as a past time for the well off, or as "sport" for the sporty, Something for disposable money, look at it as a way of life, Move on to the boat, keep it simple, work in a town with an anchorage. I was making a Sh$t load of daily cash in the bar business. Most people don't belive me when I tell them what I made, and lived on the hook for free, paddled in on an old wind surf board with a milk crate screwd to the back, that I locked to a chain link fence, had a bicycle, no cell phone. I was making white collar money and living a no collar life style. I hated turning 35 and getting serious, and I'm looking forward to going back to that basic way of life. The "real" job I have now pay's less than the bar tending gig. But I have 401 K, health and dental, stock etc. The boat is still on the hook and does'nt cost me a dime unless I want it to.


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## Capt.aaron

youmeandthed said:


> We usually call those types drug dealers.


Another viable way to make decent money in today's economy
( I kid )........... SUP?


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## emcentar

*I can only speak for myself....*

But I think some of this may more generally apply to the Gen Xers as I don't think my situation was atypical:

(1) My parents divorced when I was young and I was raised by my mother.

Although a pretty adventurous lass, she didn't know how to sail. Most kids are taught how to sail by their dads and grandfathers, most likely. Hardly anyone of my generation knows how to sail.

(2) College tuition tripled, and the real minimum wage hit a 30 year low.

Combined, this meant working your way through college was no longer an option for pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstrap types, the kind of weirdos who tend to take to sailing . Faced with the choice of signing up to go to Iraq, or taking out student loans, I did the later. $700 a month student loan payments take a lot of the potential adventure out of your 20s.

(3) Middle class jobs went away, health insurance and other costs skyrocketed.

If you've got a white collar job, it's hard to ask for the weeks off to go for a cruise when your Starbucks barista has an MS in engineering. Fear and debt again.


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## Allen-deckard

The cost of living has increased for people as well these days. not necessary the actual cost of living but the perceived cost of living.
What am i talking About?
Well like many when i grew up we weren't necessary poor definitely not rich but we had food for every meal. 
You listened to the radio for entertainment 
Nobody had ac you slept with a pile of blankets in the winter
No computers
No cells
No pods
No cable tv bill obviously

Anyway i could go on and on about what didn't exist. The point that im trying to make is even if relative pay was the same the amount of crap that's available to the people today increases there perceived living expenses ten fold. Anyway again my two more cents.


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## Capt.aaron

Now we are talking about need's and want's. Most people's " absolutally need's" are my "don't even want's." After food, water, shelter and clothing every thing else is Gravy. I haven't had this lap top for a year and I certainally don't need it. What young people need to do is get real about what they need and focus on that. I needed to move on to Grand pa's little sloop because it was realisitcally all I could afford. I needed to not have the over head of rent, cable, car insurance, and what ever else townies thought they needed. I needed to live in a town small enough to get around on a bike, anchor out for free and work for tips. People talk about how expensive the Key's or Miami is and I'm like, that's the only place I can afford to live! warm all year, EZ living, good holding, tourist dollars to be had. I was making a bit less, but not far from three figures working for tips at the same time my pears where in cubicles with their degree's, loans and huge over head.


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## chris_gee

I doubt the basic premise that there were lots of baby boomers cruising the oceans in their twenties. Sure some might have. A lot of boats were under 30' and I recall a survey showing most would prefer a couple of feet more.
The reality was for most they married and had children by their mid twenties. Those interested who had not had the chance as kids then might have got a sailing dinghy 12' 6" was most popular, and in their mid thirties probably an 18 ' trailer sailor, and maybe a keeler in their fifties. Even then only a small proportion ever did an ocean passage and even less ocean cruising.
Back then air travel barely existed and was expensive. More recently marriage and families were delayed and time out backpacking taking advantage of cheap airfares was not unusual. The return airfare NZ to Europe is the same or less than twenty years ago in nominal terms. Wages were high and jobs plentiful and I would say there was quite a lot of indulgent spending. In recent years not so much with the average real wage having declined over 10 years. 
Maybe youth sailing has declined somewhat as has say trailer sailor racing. There are bigger keelers with larger crews of rail meat. I don't think this gives the same opportunity for low cost hands on experience. However there are still big P class and optimist fleets for those with arents who encourage them so there will always be sailors.
I suspect for many years there will be relative austerity for most so maybe more will have simpler tastes.


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## chris_gee

Oops the programme went hay wire. I meant to end with some will have the means to take time out ocean cruising. A few will do it with low means. Probably more than used to because of things like GPS, but still a small minority.


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## Capt.aaron

I think I live in a place where loads of young people come to find cheap used sail boats, move on to them , start fixing them up and sail away. So It seem's to me like more and more young people are doing it. Maybe it doesn't happen else where and I'm seeing the bulk of it. Not the competion club sailing. The living on the sea sailing. Not the weekend warrior sailing, the Salty dog stuff, kid's that work on schooners and cattle-marans. I'm seeing a revival in the cruising world of 20 somethings. When I was a kid in the 70's and 80's, cruising the Bahama's with the Grandparents, there where loads of young budget cruiser's. I couldn't wait to be old enough to do it.


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## smallboatlover

im 16 i love sailing i can't wait till i can start cruise just got a bigger boat i know i can't afford to do every thing at one time thats why i just take it slow and soon enought i will be cruising.


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## Sabreman

> im 16 i love sailing i can't wait till i can start cruise just got a bigger boat i know i can't afford to do every thing at one time thats why i just take it slow and soon enought i will be cruising.


I love this kid. He sounds like I did at his age.

I agree with the other posters who said that the number of young people opting for the cruising lifestyle is not on the decline because there were never that many anyway. I grew up at the beach and worked at a number of marinas and only ever knew of *one* guy who lived on his boat, and that was only for the summer. I think that it seemed like there was a lot of sailboat activity in the 70's and 80's because fiberglass brought prices down to an affordable range. But I will venture to say that there are many more people living aboard today than ever before because of all those used boats that are now *real* affordable.

As for young people being lazy and unmotivated, I don't believe it, haven't seen it, and don't think that it's true. That statement has been quoted by every older generation about every younger generation since the dawn of time. What's different, is us - we're experiencing adulthood for the first time and have forgotten how irresponsible we once were. I certainly was 

As a kid in the 70's, very much like smallboatlover, I would wander the docks and look at the 30', 35', 40' boats and wonder how anyone could ever afford one. I would also marvel that no one ever used them except for weekends. I thought that they were stupid. Then I grew up and realized that they were out working to afford their lifestyle... just like I do today.

Not that much has changed. Only us. The rest is just noise.


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## Capt Len

Wish I could describe the westcoast with the same glowing terms about young starting out gonnabe a cruiser types. All the ingredients seem to still be in place but sucking up to a wealthy boat owner who needs rail meat is the only game showing at the club .Stepping away must be difficult when you've put such effort into student loans, parents' aspirations ,a nearly useless degree in an unsure world. How that is that different from the world I dropped out of.? Well, I didn't have google to answer all my questions and it was uphill both ways to school.


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## Capt.aaron

I went to High school in N.H. and I walked through the woods ( BY choice) to get there. Since it was on the other side of Moose Hill, It actually was up hill both way's...and snowing. It was also down hill both way's.The day I graduated, I moved back to the key's to the only life I could afford. On a little sail boat. Just like the 100's if not more people I knew growing up that lived on their boats. It's just a matter of what you are exposed to I guess. In my neck of the woods there are countless people living on their boats, alway's have been.


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## Cruiser2B

No instant gratification in sailing or cruising, takes lots of work! Younger folks in general want entertainment now! I am not buying into the whole money thing being the cause. I didn't have any money when i started sailing and still don't today 25yrs later, I am 37 now. From what I am reading sailing was a big part of american culture back in the 50's, 60's and 70s. Many young people were subjected to it back then and got a passion for it. I was fortunate enough to grow up in New England. My family loved the water although we did not own a boat. My grandparents had a 16ft daysailor, I sailed it every chance i got! I guess I was lucky enough to be subjected to it early in life. Todays younger generation just dont get the exposure to it as previous generations.

Sailing doesnt take alot of money, keeping up with the jones does! the perception is that sailing is a rich mans sport. Anyone pick up the lastest issue of Sail magazine? Not everyone needs or can afford a 40ft boat, a shiny new chartplotter, and powerful inboard, but many will have you thinking that. I have about $7500 total in my Alberg and would not trade it for anything. Many people today are mocked for taking the path less chosen. I sailed an old beat up wooden 19ft sharpie for many years without an engine, just because its all i had and was free. no one ever discouraged me, 25yrs later however leaving the dock in an Alberg 30 with an outboard is absurd by todays keeping up with the Jones mentality! I say sail what you got and have fun no matter what age you or your boat is!!


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## smurphny

The idea of what's fun has changed for kids. Few of them know how to work with their hands or find that a desirable thing to do. That's probably why more are not fixing up older boats as we used to do. They are all programmed from birth now to shoot for some career goal. Then they get in HUGE debt due to the utterly outrageous cost of the big college scam. Kids are on a treadmill in our sick society and have no time to be kids anymore.


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## puddinlegs

Love threads like this... the old farts bashing the next generation. Didn't you learn this one a while ago? Same old BS, different decade. 

Aquaintances under 30 currently circumnavigating in their own boats, 2. Boats owned and sailed a bunch by friends and aquaintances 30 and under? An Etchells, a Merit 25, Moore 24, 2 or 3 Santa Cruz 27's, a Wiley 30, a Cal 34, a Freedom 34, a US 25, an Olson 25 and 30, lasers, thistles, J-24's. 

IMHO the younger folks I'm friends with and sail with seem to have their show much more together than most I knew when I was their age and despite the uncertainty and college debt that they're dealing with. 

Young folks also have a whole lot more things to choose from than we had in the 60's and 70's. Out here there's cycling, hiking, mountaineering, rock climbing, surfing, etc...Those were hardly on the radar around here 40 years ago.


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## xantusiidae

Well, I'm 17 and a kiwi. I love sailing, especially offshore, currently cruising with my fam in the states and the next stop will be solo sailing for me! 

There are plenty of us out there, at least I know a good few. A lot lack either the means or the support, or maybe (ha) just the plain old 'think outside the box of everyday life' mentality. 
Then there's the others, who have bought their own yacht but things crash and the dream just fizzles out.
There are so many different things I'm sure you've all heard a million times but my point is, we're out there and will sail by you every so often in the years to come.

What I do want to say is give us a chance, if we are interested in something- talk! Even if you think we don't hear you. Some of us share the exact same passion for this life as you do- under out thick adolescent skins 

Anyway, that's my piece, not so much opinionated, just raising the 'we're here' flag for ya!


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## DavidB.UK

SloopJonB said:


> I blame the women.


Ha ha ha ha!


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## Leocat66

Our grandson, who is nine, has been on a few trips with us and has developed an attraction to sailing. He started saving his money earlier this year, which he earned by caring for neighbors pets and doing odd jobs. Last spring he decided that he wanted a small sailboat and found an older AMF Puffer, which was in the area. It was owned by a local elderly man who no longer used it. He sold it to our grandson for a very good price, much less than it was worth and we are now sailing it together. When we spoke to the old fellow he said that his grand children had no interest in the boat or learning to sail. He was so happy that this young man wanted to take it on.

I gave him two quick lessons and his mother enrolled him in sailing camp, which he just completed, along with twelve other young students. He was allowed to bring his Puffer but also sailed in OPs, 420's, Lasers and Flying Scotts. Only one of the twelve expressed no interest in continuing with the sport. 

His interest in learning amazes all of us. We are very happy to see this as he was, prior to this, heavy into computer games, too much time inside. He now has all but given up those interest. He is also using our kayaks to visit his friends in the area, as we live on the water. 

This boating thing has really taken off and therefore I can see that if a child is exposed to this or other outdoor activity many will jump right in with both feet, and their interest will be there for a long long time. Too many never have the opportunity.


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## DavidB.UK

This is a really interesting thread for certain!

I just turned 33, I am young enough to remember the first mobile phones (the size of car batteries), remember the Sega Megadrive and when Michael Jackson was Black.

My father taught me to sail at 16 on a little Mayfly dinghy, it was great fun and I went out as often as I could before taking a full time job at 18...

...26 Oh yeah, I used to enjoy sailing...

I had the perception that Yachts were only for the rich (born with a silver spoon) or those who were 40/50+ had become captains of industry and had six figure incomes. I am saving now to scrape together $5k to buy a 28ft liveaboard.

I am kicking myself that I didn't look at this as an option earlier in my life. I think therein lies the problem for many, and that problem is awareness. The perception that house/flat/apartment is the only option.

I spent the best part of ten years working all over the country in hotels (job's with accommodation) because that gave me the biggest % of disposable income.

I used that income to afford flash cars, toys, motorbike racing, backpacking holidays to australia, Asia and Europe and whilst it has all been great fun! I worked dammed hard for my adventures but all of them were worth it.

At 33, a little wiser and realise that my spending has been frivolous and whilst I do wish that I had bought a little boat when I have had enough cash in my bank account to do so outright. I have probably had more adventure in my short but colourful life than most people I know and so I would change it!

One thing I would do to help the next generation (and I think that should be the focus) is help them to be aware of other options.

With the *jobs market + economy + property prices* equation in mind, is it really surprising to you that the youth would rather spend their money on things of instant gratification than facing the daunting task of trying to raise 2 years salary just to get enough for a deposit for a house?

I think that there are valid points on both sides of the fence here, there are some lazy (rather live off the state) B*****Ds in the world right now, but there are also those who at 16 have started companies and done really well.

IMO its all about awareness that (as Capt. Aaron said) living aboard can be a great option. and the next generation being given the encouragement to believe in themselves that they can achieve and excel.

I know this last part is in danger of going off topic but I think this might be interesting to some...

I have just been given permission to post this video on my website The Blackhurst Foundation


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## DavidB.UK

Leocat66 said:


> Our grandson, who is nine, has been on a few trips with us and has developed an attraction to sailing. He started saving his money earlier this year, which he earned by caring for neighbors pets and doing odd jobs. Last spring he decided that he wanted a small sailboat and found an older AMF Puffer, which was in the area. It was owned by a local elderly man who no longer used it. He sold it to our grandson for a very good price, much less than it was worth and we are now sailing it together. When we spoke to the old fellow he said that his grand children had no interest in the boat or learning to sail. He was so happy that this young man wanted to take it on.
> 
> I gave him two quick lessons and his mother enrolled him in sailing camp, which he just completed, along with twelve other young students. He was allowed to bring his Puffer but also sailed in OPs, 420's, Lasers and Flying Scotts. Only one of the twelve expressed no interest in continuing with the sport.
> 
> His interest in learning amazes all of us. We are very happy to see this as he was, prior to this, heavy into computer games, too much time inside. He now has all but given up those interest. He is also using our kayaks to visit his friends in the area, as we live on the water.
> 
> This boating thing has really taken off and therefore I can see that if a child is exposed to this or other outdoor activity many will jump right in with both feet, and their interest will be there for a long long time. Too many never have the opportunity.


*Fantastic!!!*


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## chall03

youmeandthed said:


> I'm thinking it has a lot to do with inflated expectations for a higher than deserved standard of living, hence people who are almost thirty living with their parents, growing up in a zero failure world (which is not a good way to encourage hard work), and the expectation that the world owes them something (careers, high standards of living, education)
> 
> AMEX came out with a survey showing that young people spend tons of money on travel and luxury goods. It must be a mental thing. The ocean is pretty intimidating, not big snowboard jump intimidating, but kill you if it decides to intimidating. I'm guessing backpacking and all-inclusives are just easier to do.


I think you have hit the nail on the head.

My wife and I are in our early 30's, and cruising the east coast here in Oz we have not once meet anyone cruising younger than us.

You can't say our generation isn't into travel or adventure, these are both booming industries, but I just think sailing/cruising has just fallen out of vogue.

I also think (and this is going to make me sound old), that Generation Y just lacks the patience, persistence, discipline and courage to see a dream like cruising through.That is a generalisation of course, but it is generally true. This is the instant generation, the no consequence generation, if it feels good do it, and if I can say it a spoilt generation.

It is surprising on this forum and others the amount of young people who come and post the obligatory " I want to buy a cheap boat and sail off into the sunset" thread and then after realising a few tough realities they tend to disappear forever.

One such couple in there 20's here is Australia started a _buy a cheap boat and sail around the world thread _on another forum about a year ago. They seemed quite genuine and determined at the time and were very impressed that we were off sailing the Great Barrier Reef. "how did you do it?" They asked. I told them... "well we worked hard for 10 years, saved our money, stopped going out for dinner, stopped buying new clothes/cars or TV's, and spent our time learning about sailing and working on boats. Most of all we committed to our dream, made the sacrifices and saw it through"

I have since PMed them a few times and kept in contact on email. Last update they did take some beginner sailing lessons and they liked going to marinas to look at the boats on sunny weekends. For the moment they have however decided to rent a new apartment with a waterview instead. They have been to Malaysia twice, been to a few really nice day spas they recommended, and were thinking of learning to dive, maybe as part of the next holiday. They say they are still looking for a boat.......

My suspicion sadly is that they will probably never buy the boat or go cruising, let alone around the world.

It is however very inspiring when I do hear about true young adventurers who are out there doing something so very counter-cultural. Good on ya guys


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## DavidB.UK

chall03 said:


> They have been to Malaysia twice, been to a few really nice day spas they recommended, and were thinking of learning to dive, maybe as part of the next holiday. They say they are still looking for a boat.......


I would wager that they could have bought a boat with what they have spent on the above!

and then sailed to Malaysia and kitted the boat out with a compressor to charge the dive tanks even!

I am committed to my liveaboard dream and only which I had done it sooner!

Though now I reflect on it... With what I have spent of travelling to Asia, Europe and Austraila twice to do things like this...









I could have bought myself a nice boat by now!
*BUT* I didn't think it possible to buy a boat for less than $100k
(i now know better), but thats kind of my point about awareness.
I hadn't even considered livingaboard until last year and ever since I
have been working towards it, by getting rid of 'stuff' on eBay and
saving money and creating ways to earn money through the internet.
... All in preparation!

Having said that, had I not traveled, I wouldn't know that places like this exist...









The above is Whitehaven beach in the Whitsundays!
*And I am determined to return on my own yacht one day!*


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## Capt.aaron

To all the young dudes, I want to get the word out, if you have student loans, if you can't find a job or aren't getting paid what you thought in your chosen field, QUIT YOUR JOB AND MOVE TO KEY WEST " (see book by same title written by my good friend Chris Shultz") We have the boats, we have the jobs. If you can get up in the morning and show up on time, you can make a success of your self here. I know oyster shuckers that are making $150 a day and have no rent, bills etc. I'm trying to unload a little Trip Columbia 25 for $1000, all it needs is a little attention. If you have thick skin, a little gumption, and aren't the in-doorsy type , this the life style for you, A little money down and drive it a way today. Instant grat. for the Y gen's, one day your cussing your no where job that pay's for the car you need to get to work, to pay for the car you need to get to work, to pay....and the next, your stocking ice and beer at a wharf side bar and grill looking out at your little sloop in the bay. It's a no brainer. (But wait, there's more.) if you act now, you'll get here in time to pick up those jobs created by snow birds leaving to head back up north for the summer. Just do it. Your only young once fella's ( and Girls) we have girls here. I've seen plenty of Young women living the life down here. (certain restrictions my apply)


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## chall03

DavidB.UK said:


> The above is Whitehaven beach in the Whitsundays!
> *And I am determined to return on my own yacht one day!*


I actually have nothing against travel at all, and the one thing we have always done is travel......We have done it smartly....but yeah we have always travelled. My point was as you said, that for what they are spending pursuing the great western 1st world dream they could of happily bought a pocket cruiser and be sat at Whitehaven  
I really get annoyed when people say to us "Oh you must be rich, we could never afford to do what you are doing'.

Ok just to make you a little jealous the below pictures are us at Whitehaven, on own yacht last October   





















Capt.aaron said:


> To all the young dudes, I want to get the word out, if you have student loans, if you can't find a job or aren't getting paid what you thought in your chosen field, QUIT YOUR JOB AND MOVE TO KEY WEST " (see book by same title written by my good friend Chris Shultz") We have the boats, we have the jobs. If you can get up in the morning and show up on time, you can make a success of your self here. I know oyster shuckers that are making $150 a day and have no rent, bills etc. I'm trying to unload a little Trip Columbia 25 for $1000, all it needs is a little attention. If you have thick skin, a little gumption, and aren't the in-doorsy type , this the life style for you, A little money down and drive it a way today. Instant grat. for the Y gen's, one day your cussing your no where job that pay's for the car you need to get to work, to pay for the car you need to get to work, to pay....and the next, your stocking ice and beer at a wharf side bar and grill looking out at your little sloop in the bay. It's a no brainer. (But wait, there's more.) if you act now, you'll get here in time to pick up those jobs created by snow birds leaving to head back up north for the summer. Just do it. Your only young once fella's ( and Girls) we have girls here. I've seen plenty of Young women living the life down here. (certain restrictions my apply)


Young girls??? Oysters??? Beer??? Where do I sign up???? Oh yeah I'm married and don't have a green card 
Oh the thingsI would do differently If I were 21 again.


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## DavidB.UK

chall03 said:


> Ok just to make you a little jealous the below pictures are us at Whitehaven, on own yacht last October


Not jealous at all, well done you!
I have visited once, I took the picture that I posted in 2004

and I *KNOW* I will go back one day with my own boat, perhaps that'll mark half way on a circumnavigation...?

Anybody want to meet in Airlie Beach for a beer?


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## chall03

If you get to the Whitsundays halfway through a circumnavigation, I will definitely BUY YOU a beer in Airlie  

The Whitsundays sailing club at Airlie(Whose Motto is 'A drinking town with a sailing problem') also does a pretty decent steak, I'll meet you on their dinghy dock.


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## Capt.aaron

challo3
you and half the work force here don't have green card. Irish, English, South Arican, South American, Eastern European, Icelandic,Canadian, Uzbekastan, Ukrainian, French, all represented here.


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## night0wl

Interesting statistic...

Minimum wage in 1968 (I'd say the "peak" of the baby boomers lifetimes): $1.60 
Equivalent in 2012 dollars...$10.57
Annualized income if you worked for minimum wage in 1968 equivalent 2012 dollars:$21,140
Federal minimum wage in 2012 real: $7.25
Annualized income if you're working for 2012 minimum wage: $14,500

Things that make you go hmmm....


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## Capt.aaron

That's why you are better off working in a bar/rest. in a tourist town. On a rainy tuesday in Sept., I made $300 a night at the big night club in K.W., during spring break double that! American dream suburbanites ,that talk down to my wife when she waits on them at the iconic wharf side seafood place, don't realize she's taking home between 300 and 500 bucks a day! She probably makes more than some of them. And they alway's ask. " How do you live here, what do you do?" Even if you are only walking with 100, living on a little sail boat with no rent, cable, water , electric, car insurance, car payment and an I phone, you can live a nice life. Get a Metro Pcs phone for 40 buck's a month and a bicycle and put the rest in the bank.


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## skaterp14

I just turned 25 and can not wait to cast off. I live in a small town on the Chesapeake Bay and have been on the water my whole life and about 6 months ago I bought my first sailboat, a 1978 mac 22. Since then I have been sailing it every chance I get, done a few overnight trips, and the more that I am on the boat, the more I just want to keep going and not turn back for the dock. I chose not to get a $20,000 car. I choose not to eat out every other night. I chose not to buy that $40,000 truck. I do not have direct tv. I chose not to get that $170,000 house. I bought a 1989 honda civic for $100 and put several of my own hours of work into it, not too long ago I took it from VA to Keywest. I bought a 1999 pickup. I bought a 700 square foot house that was about to fall down for $20,000 , $20,000 later i have a home that is beautiful and I owe about $30,000 on it now. I work full time and so does my GF. What I am trying to say is I am a young person that chose not to go to college and get that huge debt to work my whole life and have things that will not matter in 20 years. I made my own choices, and didnt do what I thought society thought I should do, and I am a lot more happy than many of the people I know my age, and I have less, not because I have to BUT because I choose to. In 2 more years I plan to buy the cruising boat that I want ( a project boat 30ish foot) and make it what I want, keeping it simple, and living my life, not tied down. and not having to work till I am 70 to pay for my house. I do not make a lot of money BUT i dont have an i pod, smartphone, playstation, 70 in tv, paved driveway, brand new lawnmore, heatpump, direct tv, or a 2005 car that I will have to pay on for 3 more years. what I do have is beautiful sunsets, captain morgan and pepsi, a car that gets me where I want to go, and a house that keeps me dry.


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## Allen-deckard

night0wl:891610 said:


> Interesting statistic...
> 
> Minimum wage in 1968 (I'd say the "peak" of the baby boomers lifetimes): $1.60
> Equivalent in 2012 dollars...$10.57
> Annualized income if you worked for minimum wage in 1968 equivalent 2012 dollars:$21,140
> Federal minimum wage in 2012 real: $7.25
> Annualized income if you're working for 2012 minimum wage: $14,500
> 
> Things that make you go hmmm....


Should factor that to how many married couples had women that either didn't work (it was socially acceptable before i get pounded) or didn't work full time or worked full time but didn't make as much as the husband.

Im not even saying your wrong and im not going to do the research just that its apples and oranges in my opinion.


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## Capt.aaron

skaterp14 said:


> I just turned 25 and can not wait to cast off. I live in a small town on the Chesapeake Bay and have been on the water my whole life and about 6 months ago I bought my first sailboat, a 1978 mac 22. Since then I have been sailing it every chance I get, done a few overnight trips, and the more that I am on the boat, the more I just want to keep going and not turn back for the dock. I chose not to get a $20,000 car. I choose not to eat out every other night. I chose not to buy that $40,000 truck. I do not have direct tv. I chose not to get that $170,000 house. I bought a 1989 honda civic for $100 and put several of my own hours of work into it, not too long ago I took it from VA to Keywest. I bought a 1999 pickup. I bought a 700 square foot house that was about to fall down for $20,000 , $20,000 later i have a home that is beautiful and I owe about $30,000 on it now. I work full time and so does my GF. What I am trying to say is I am a young person that chose not to go to college and get that huge debt to work my whole life and have things that will not matter in 20 years. I made my own choices, and didnt do what I thought society thought I should do, and I am a lot more happy than many of the people I know my age, and I have less, not because I have to BUT because I choose to. In 2 more years I plan to buy the cruising boat that I want ( a project boat 30ish foot) and make it what I want, keeping it simple, and living my life, not tied down. and not having to work till I am 70 to pay for my house. I do not make a lot of money BUT i dont have an i pod, smartphone, playstation, 70 in tv, paved driveway, brand new lawnmore, heatpump, direct tv, or a 2005 car that I will have to pay on for 3 more years. what I do have is beautiful sunsets, captain morgan and pepsi, a car that gets me where I want to go, and a house that keeps me dry.


HOW DARE YOU F UP THAT CAPTAIN MORGAN WITH PEPSI!!!! YOU WHERE ON A ROLL TILL YOU SAID THAT. DRINK IT OUT OF THE BOTTLE MAN, MAYBE ICE WHEN YOU FEEL DAINTY, JEEEZ!! But seriously, good job.. Get the word out dude, you are living by example.


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## Pegu club

Sailing as a hobby is likely not considered all that cool by most twenty somethings even if they live near water, and it requires a lot of money if you want to get into a used fifteen or twenty foot boat. (gotta be able to take your friends along) Most twenty somethings would much rather spend that money and time on cars and other more ephemeral consumer goods. Sadly most young adults lack the ability to think outside of the mall and car life style, and yes give themselves the appearance of being somewhat slothful as you seem to have noticed. That and it takes a small amount of commitment and you have to learn how to do it and that immediately excludes a large percentage of humans not just the twenty somethings.

That and the Entire sailing industry has done themselves no favors in this, and is dramatically lacking in any noticeable way of promoting sailing as a fun thing to get involved in. Think "you got Milk" and the dairy industry, its just not there for sailing in any real form.


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## Capt.aaron

Pull'n their pants up, and straighten'n out their ball cap would be a good start. We need a Hip Hop Jimmy Buffet-esque cultural hero to start a sailing revival. ( not that I care to much for that dude)


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## youmeandthed

I totally agree that instant gratification has a lot to do with it. It amazes me how people think you're crazy when you say, " I want to leave this career path/house swapping/car leasing lifestyle buy a boat and chill on it somewhere warm."

Right now I'm in a backpacking hotspot in Panama, and I see my peers dropping some serious coin to sleep in a dorm room, surf the internet, and drink their faces off at night. When I tell them I sailed here on a boat, they respond with pretty blank faces. 

To me I like hearing about the young sailors at 16 with the dream to go cruising. It is great stuff, it all starts with dreaming, then you achieve it through smart and independent decisions, personal sacrifice and hardwork.

I think our generation has always had cheerleaders supporting them from the sideline. Then all of a sudden when it's a "crazy" idea like living on a boat, no one is cheering anymore and the dream dies.

It's great to look at the min wage in real terms, but also look at boat prices in real terms.. They are cheap.

I think there is something to be said for lack of hands on/practical skills. Not a lot of parents were teaching their kids how to do carpentry or work on motors, they were thrown in front of a tv or computer. But what I don't get is you can always learn skills, and for some reason, unless it is in a school or certificate program, a lot of young people don't bother learning skills.


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## Beaverkill

This is not only a sailing issue. All outdoor sports are seeing a steady decline in youth participation numbers. I am new to sailing, but I am a fly fishing guide/Instructor and also teach hunter education for my state. The outdoor sports industries have been trying to come up with solutions for years…I see it in fly fishing a lot…Everyone is getting older and there just isnt the influx of young people… I don’t know the exact reasons but some of the common issues that are debated are single parent homes, overworked parents with little free time, overscheduled sports, wider variety of sports and activities available…I have organized quite a few kids fishing birthday parties over the last 5 years and it amazes me how many of the kids fathers have never fished… or have never shot a gun, let alone hunt for their own food…But there are other sports (golf, snowboarding,etc..) that are seeing steady growth in the younger demographic…Maybe it is the way the sports are marketed or just social changes…My oldest son is 6 years old..He plays soccer, baseball, archery, fishes, karate and starts cub scouts in the fall…As a family our schedule is full and finding family time to do anything is difficult with our overscheduled lives but I still push the natural world and one of the reasons that I am learning to sail is to ensure that my boys will have a well rounded education in the outdoors... I did not come from money and my parents always struggled to make ends meet but we had a small farm and always had food…I worked my way through college and expanded my outdoor education to scuba, rock climbing/mountaineering, skiing, boating…If it had to do with the outdoors, I wanted to learn and do….Maybe I wasn’t excellent at any one sport but I was good at many…Today everyone wants to excel at one thing..To be specialized instead of well rounded in many different areas… I don’t have an answer and there may not be an answer to the issues but if someone wants to learn to sail, there are so many ways to learn without a big layout of money…


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## peterchech

Lol maybe cruising is just a little over rated by baby boomers.

Personally I blame the women (as does Jimmy Buffet). No showers or A/C on the boats most of us are sailing, slip/mooring ball fees are not cheap and if you just want to anchor for free well then going in for a night on the town can be difficult logistically (where do you put the dinghy, and will it be there when you get back?). So most nights you are stuck on an anchor off of some beach, with most of the company that is on the hook next to you being about 30 years older than you are. You can enjoy yourself on that beach, catch up on reading, do some fishing, etc, and while it might be fun for a few nights, cruising can be more uncomfortable than enjoyable in a lot of ways, esp when it gets hot and the wind dies and you are trying to sleep sweating bullets...


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## Capt.aaron

Ya, been there.


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## tommays

I have less in Seafever in 2012 than i did in the J24 in 1981 we did stick with the tan/green color 

BUT in all honesty my goodness it cost far more money to do ANYTHING now

There is no way my children who still sail with me and are older than i was when i bought the J24 could even begin to come up with the cost in 2012


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## Jgbrown

Definitely financial. I would never have been able to afford a boat without 2 well paying jobs(1 full time+benefits, the other 30+ hrs a week now). If I'd known what even a small boat cost, I probably wouldn't have gone for it. My Alberg 30, and the work I've had to do to it over the last couple months+the fees for a slip for a year have cost more than I would spend to ride around the entire world on my motorbike which would take me 18 months or a couple years. Even with the idea of costs that I had previously, I couldn't afford a boat I could sleep on except as a liveaboard.


Dunno where you folks live, but around here, there is no way I would have the disposable income to afford a smaller boat that I couldn't live on full time. Most marinas are not really interested in the smaller boats either, at least not within an hour of my house. Can't trailer it since cars and trucks are too expensive to own and insure(1650$/yr for liability only for my 86 diesel VW golf the last year I had it). Even if they were, no place to store it on land without several hundred dollars more in fees since few people have a yard big enough. 

I didn't know how to approach it. Marinas seemed so gated off and aggressively guarded. I had no idea how open and welcoming the community might be, in my experience elsewhere nobody wants to have anybody along for something who isn't either paying, or very experienced with certifications etc to back it up. If I'd known how easy it was to crew or learn to sail I might have considered it as a hobby. Fairly unlikely considering how busy I am, but possible I suppose.


Many people my age(more girls than guys, as seems to be the way of things these days) want to learn how to sail, as it is seen as a great way to travel and are amazed and envious of the fact that I have bought a boat, most people are shocked at the idea that I could afford a boat at my age. 

So I'd say lack of experience and education is the biggest problem. Nobody knows HOW to meet the people to learn from, or what to ask if they do. 
Also in hindsight, if I'd know how cheap it was longer term(despite the big costs I'm facing) I would have bought the boat sooner, and the costs would have been spread over several years, now I am looking at the costs only being spread over a couple years and it is much less pleasant.


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## Capt Len

In spite of the cool damp Juneuary we got through toJulvember1 ,our big national birthday.After a good sailing weekend in Victoria ,we drove up to Naniamo, 70 miles. The highway was chockablock with 5th wheel and motor homes heading back to Vic because it rained Monday.Don't know the average value but yearly depreciation on a big one is more than my boat has cost me in 30 years. It would seem that there is no shortage of disposable income among my peers (if I may include myself in that herd) How we dispose of said income is a matter of personal choice,as is the example we make to our offspring. This may have something to do with a rather common lack of inspiration on their part. Society's values go a long way to determine the next generations' direction. Cruising between Walmart parking lots is not my idea of an entry level inter- generational adventure. I'm thankful my father was a fisherman who expected me to work along side him at age ten and built my first sail boat at fifteen. Connection?( Since then I've sailed Bay of Islands, both Desolation Sounds AND the Whitsundays.)


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## youmeandthed

I live in Vancouver, I owned an apartment and a 30ft Catalina for a while, then sold the boat and rented the apartment. My wife and I didn't come from money or ever got bailed out, we just worked hard and didn't spend our money on $8 cocktails and $15 hamburgers every day. We even saved money for our trip while working, owning and insuring vehicles, paying the mortgage, going on trips. We knew where almost every dollar went, which might be the difference, I met a lot of people my age, while having to work as a bank teller, who made twice as much money as me and had nothing to show for it. I never had any of my friends make an effort to meet up with me to go sailing, and it was free for them. 

Just a strange mentality. I think it might also have to do with how younger people are afraid to fail, so they put barriers up or don't try. 

I dunno, but it is interesting hearing perspectives on what people think about it. Baby boomers getting into cruising should be concerned, because who is going to buy your boat after you spend 5 years of retirement on it, and need to sell for health reasons.


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## Capt Len

How right youme. I retired broke and young, Lived in an open hull and picked bottles and metal 5 years while I built Thane over me. Cost 12 grand and now I don't see the next gen dreaming boat. or even asking to crew Now I'm 69, boat is 35 and makes me 100 grand a year. Fortunately we're both self steering but what to do at the waypoint.


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## Capt.aaron

Capt Len said:


> How right youme. I retired broke and young, Lived in an open hull and picked bottles and metal 5 years while I built Thane over me. Cost 12 grand and now I don't see the next gen dreaming boat. or even asking to crew Now I'm 69, boat is 35 and makes me 100 grand a year. Fortunately we're both self steering but what to do at the waypoint.


Awesome


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## chall03

youmeandthed said:


> Just a strange mentality. I think it might also have to do with how younger people are afraid to fail, so they put barriers up or don't try.
> 
> I dunno, but it is interesting hearing perspectives on what people think about it. Baby boomers getting into cruising should be concerned, because who is going to buy your boat after you spend 5 years of retirement on it, and need to sell for health reasons.


I am hearing you and umm I don't know either.

Interestingly enough the minimum wage down here is the equivalent of $16 US. There are also plenty of young folk in the country making good money. Mining has seen our country become more and more afluent, plenty of guys head off to the mines and make a fortune.

Despite all of this, while they are buying flash cars, gadgets, and real estate, they are still not going cruising.

The cool thing about all of this is that they young folk out there doing it are generally speaking pretty awesome 

That so few are doing it, that it is so hard now means that the guys and gals like youmeandthed who are doing it have alot to be proud of 

In life I have found that it is always easier and more widely acceptable to not follow your dreams.


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## NaviGsr

The overarching reason is that sailing is completely absent from our cultural radar. 

Why were there more baby boomers out in their 20s? Because they grew up in an era where sailing was celebrated as an exciting and adventurous activity. Think about how the global races all started in the late 60s and early 70s: The Golden Globe Race, The Whitbread, The Route Du Rhum. Think of Robin Lee Graham's voyage and how it captivated a generation of young sailors. 

Sailing was a part of the whole counterculture of the time. Cruising was (and probably still is) the last bastion of freedom and self-reliance in a very paranoid and frightened world. 

Why does my generation not care about sailing? Probably for the same reason we don't care about politics and are generally ignorant of the world at large.

Are there other factors? Sure, there are plenty: We don't have the likes of Pearson marketing sailing as a post-war, middle-class aspiration, those who might be sailors are into "extreme sports" instead, student loans, computers, the internet, the yacht clubbing 80's, the death of American boat builders in the 90's...the list goes on. 

But I do think if we weren't so apathetic and had just a small spark of our parent's baby boom ire, we would see the incredible potential of owning a sailboat.


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## Capt.aaron

tommays said:


> I have less in Seafever in 2012 than i did in the J24 in 1981 we did stick with the tan/green color
> 
> BUT in all honesty my goodness it cost far more money to do ANYTHING now
> 
> There is no way my children who still sail with me and are older than i was when i bought the J24 could even begin to come up with the cost in 2012


They can't afford it on top of their existing bills and life style, who can. The Idea is to live on the boat for free and live as a minimilist, then they could probably afford to visit land. Instead visiting the sea on the weekends.


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## tommays

Well

We sail when want which on a good week would be three times which more than fulfills my need to sail










As we have the misfortune of liking to hike and do other stuff and i feel like i did something right because at 24 and 27 they still find time to spend with ME and bring friends






Grace thinks its cool






And with the distance racing


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## DavidB.UK

tommays said:


> As we have the misfortune of liking to hike and do other stuff and i feel like i did something right because at 24 and 27 they still find time to spend with ME and bring friends


Fantastic! 

I have a niece a 3 nephews who are just about old enough to start doing stuff with, can't wait to take them out for a sail on Uncle David's boat!


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## smurphny

In reference to Aaron's minimalist comment above: IMO one of the best things about spending extended time on any sailboat is that it teaches you to be a minimalist, to conserve, and be wise in how you plan and use things. There just is no other choice. These type lessons are good for anyone and, to me, one of the most enjoyable aspects of sailing. When you try to explain the thrift involved in sailing, most landlubbers, especially young folks, just give you that vacant look that indicates they think you are either crazy or probably come from another planet....What do you mean, I can't take a 1/2 hr. shower twice a day??! Many wasteful habits would be cured if everyone had to spend a couple of months sailing.


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## Brent Swain

When I first came to the BC coast, at age 18, wages were around $2 an hour and a Haida 26 cost around $9K. Now I have seen them for sale for around $3500 and wages are much higher, $30 an hour for me.Even minimum wages are over six times what they were back then, while boats are being practicaly given away. Back then it cost a years wages for a radar, now it costs a week and a halfs wages. It cost more hours wages for a depth sounder back then than it costs for a radar today. With boats being given away, why are kids homeless? I still remember harassment of liveaboards, and the need to sneak aboard ones boat being quite common back then. Back then we dreamt of living aboard our own boats, and made great sacrifices to get there. I carried only bus tokens and only whatever money I needed to get what I went shopping for , no more. I remember working on my first boat at age 20, and having a friend come visit. He said "You are going to have a terrible summer." I said "Yes, but worth it for the endless summer comming. " I had no interest in the dating or party scene, nor booze nor drugs, nor owning a car , expensive clothes etc etc. As a result, I was on my way to New Zealand in my own boat at age 23. I wouldn't trade the choices I made back then, for all the drunken parties, cars , girlfriends, cars , etc, my friends had. The lives they ended up living were a complete, unimaginitive bore, compared to what I have done. I went to a few of those parties in New Zealand . Boy I sure wasn't missing much!
A big part of the problem is those who spread the myth that one should only buy new equipment at ship swindlers grossly inflated prices, and that only spending lots of money will get one into the cruising life. They spread the myth that if you try cruising without supporting the industry, you are somehow morally irresponsible. If the industry wants welfare, they should apply at the welfare office .When I try to tell people of affordable alternatives, like used gear and salvaged gear ,or how to build your own, extremely cowardly moderators on other sites, close the debate, before I get a chance to respond to their myths, and disinformation. Their goal seems to be to keep the cruising alternative reserved for the rich advocates of the predominant religion of our time, squanderism ( consumerism). Their attitude towards ones moral obligation to support squanderism is downright, religious extremist 
(consumerism's Taliban) 
Sadly, too many of our youth get suckered into their myth that, if you dont have a huge amount of money ,you can forget about the cruising lifestyle. The elitist myth makers cost them their dreams, and leave them eventually living the squanderism lifestyle, which, in the long run, will drastically increase their environmental foot print, as ones environmental foot print is directly measureable by how much money one goes thru. 
When youth connect to the fact that they have been suckered into the myth that only the rich can cruise, and that the consumer treadmill is not the only lifestyle option available to them, its like a light going on, and their enthusiasm suddenly springs to life. Then their resourcefullness in getting into the cruising lifestyle is a wonderful thing to observe ( to the chagrin of those who had planned to exploit them for the rest of their lives).
I remember once , while building a boat in Duncan, a friend sticking his head over the rail and saying. "You didn't want to go to university Brent , so work." 
I replied "If I had gone to university and got a degree, I'd be driving taxi right now."
He said "Yes, you are probably right. "


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## bljones

Baby boomers didn't have a "virtual" world. When the only way to experience life is IRL,if you are adventurous you live the hell out of it IRL.

Adventure, however is a dying commodity in this age of fear. The Post-X generations have been coddled and protected and helicoptered and helmeted and padded and guarded to the point where any adventure is only sustainable in small easily managed and well insured doses.

Nobody would even think about letting their kid hitch hike on their own across north america today, but it was common a generation ago.


Personally, I blame peanut allergies. When i was a kid, nobody had peanut allergies. Now maybe that means all those kids died when they got their first whiff of Jif, I don't know, but somewhere along the way some parent convinced schools that peanut allergies were deadly serious, and for the sake of their precious snowflake, every other kid could no longer bring a peanut butter sammich to school. Then, in retaliation for that snowflake getting peanut products banned from school, some kid hit him with a snowball, then snowballs were banned. It's been downhill into a well-padded adequately supervised perfectly safe peanut and bully free pool ever since...
and now that generation wants everything to be safe and programmed and planned.


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## chall03

I just knew those damn peanuts were to blame for all of this 

I think it is natural, understandeable human behavior to want to look after your kids. The problem being that as a society we now are so good at it, so resourced and equipped to protect them from the harms of the world that they end up not ever understanding or experiencing the actual world themselves.

Ironically the greatest danger facing the next generation is diabetes and heat disease, issues largely caused not by being adventurous but by sitting in a house and eating oneself silly.


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## Jgbrown

NaviGsr said:


> The overarching reason is that sailing is completely absent from our cultural radar.
> 
> Why were there more baby boomers out in their 20s? Because they grew up in an era where sailing was celebrated as an exciting and adventurous activity. Think about how the global races all started in the late 60s and early 70s: The Golden Globe Race, The Whitbread, The Route Du Rhum. Think of Robin Lee Graham's voyage and how it captivated a generation of young sailors.
> 
> Sailing was a part of the whole counterculture of the time. Cruising was (and probably still is) the last bastion of freedom and self-reliance in a very paranoid and frightened world.
> 
> Why does my generation not care about sailing? Probably for the same reason we don't care about politics and are generally ignorant of the world at large.
> 
> Are there other factors? Sure, there are plenty: We don't have the likes of Pearson marketing sailing as a post-war, middle-class aspiration, those who might be sailors are into "extreme sports" instead, student loans, computers, the internet, the yacht clubbing 80's, the death of American boat builders in the 90's...the list goes on.
> 
> But I do think if we weren't so apathetic and had just a small spark of our parent's baby boom ire, we would see the incredible potential of owning a sailboat.


The not knowing is a big part of it too. I'll say it again, if I'd known how easy it was to get time on other people's boats and sail I probably wouldn't have even bought one to start off, but I didn't see any other way, and I wanted to live aboard. Every marina I've passed was gated, and nobody there. How was I supposed to find those people to learn about sailing and boats from. Now that I'm "in" so to speak by having my own boat, I have more invitations to come and sail than I could take people up on, since I am so busy working to repair my boat, and to earn enough to pay for her.

Very frustrating, to think that for the past 4 years I could have been happily learning to sail and meeting all these great people, but just couldn't find my way in. 
That's a big part of why sailing is dying out I'm sure. The first book I remember ever reading without pictures was Great Adventures in Small Boats, basically a large collection of summarized stories from singlehanders and small boats. My dad and I never saw eye to eye on it, he wanted me to race(lasers etc) I wanted to explore. I looked at boats for sale of the years, but they were always so far out of reach for me.

So lack of knowledge, or any way to get the knowledge and financial are the big reasons, my concept of the financial end kept me from ever looking, the lack of ability to learn from others kept me from ever learning and there just wasn't any way I could see to get involved with it.

Mixed blessing. Too many boats and it would all be crowded, just like everywhere else.

Brent: I bet the Haida was a bit newer than, a 26 of similar quality and age as they were then is a quite a few dollars more than 9000$ today.

Agree about the rest though, if I'd had better exposure to it, and known I didn't need to spend the kind of money most people spend to get into it, I would certainly have got into it sooner. I thought it was only for the rich(still do in a lot of ways). As far as supporting the industry I'll do that as soon the industry makes something to support me(read: useful, durable and inexpensive parts and hardware).


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## Brent Swain

That's why I wrote my book , to get simpler more affordable ways out, beyond the censorship of some forum moderators, who put the interests of the ship swindlers( their advertisers) first, ahead of those of low income cruisers. That is why my input gets censored.


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## bljones

Brent Swain said:


> That's why I wrote my book , to get simpler more affordable ways out, beyond the censorship of some forum moderators, who put the interests of the ship swindlers( their advertisers) first...


Absolutely. After all they PAY to support the site.
I'd censor your cheapskate ass too. Buy an ad.


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## Jgbrown

Brent Swain said:


> That's why I wrote my book , to get simpler more affordable ways out, beyond the censorship of some forum moderators, who put the interests of the ship swindlers( their advertisers) first, ahead of those of low income cruisers. That is why my input gets censored.


It's definitely on my list! I will be buying it as soon as I'm able. I sort of mis-understood your book at first I think, I understood it to be mostly about building your boats, which while marvelous are way out of my budget.
I enjoy your posts here, and re-considered the book thinking it might have more there. As soon as the budget allows I'll be looking for a copy. Just wish it was available as an E-book, I am avoiding anything paper that isn't critical(charts, manuals for engines etc).
My dad couldn't believe that you are on the internet. He said "you've talked to the notorious Brent Swain!?". 
So I figure that puts you on the good list. He gave me a lot of crap about "internet experts" until then.



bljones said:


> Absolutely. After all they PAY to support the site.
> I'd censor your cheapskate ass too. Buy an ad.


:laugher:laugher:

Well I can't argue with Bl's point there. Got you pretty much dead to rights if you've got a product you're advertising like a book without paying for an ad.


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## chall03

+1
Very happy to have Brent posting here. 

Ummm.....I really don't think sailnet needs anymore ads. Period.


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## Jgbrown

chall03 said:


> +1
> Very happy to have Brent posting here.
> 
> Ummm.....I really don't think sailnet doesn't really need anymore ads. Period.


But if there HAS to be an ad at the top of the page. I'd prefer a blurb for Brent's book vs many of the sillier items that show up from time to time.


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## chall03

Sillier items like BFS bumper stickers???  Joking. 
Umm For sure!!! 

I also welcome his input here, as a yacht designer and experienced cruiser I am happy for his posts, and for him to mention his book as often as he likes in them. If he starts posting links to Amazon then that might be a bit much, but otherwise so what?


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## DavidB.UK

smurphny said:


> In reference to Aaron's minimalist comment above: IMO one of the best things about spending extended time on any sailboat is that it teaches you to be a minimalist, to conserve, and be wise in how you plan and use things. There just is no other choice. These type lessons are good for anyone and, to me, one of the most enjoyable aspects of sailing. When you try to explain the thrift involved in sailing, most landlubbers, especially young folks, just give you that vacant look that indicates they think you are either crazy or probably come from another planet....What do you mean, I can't take a 1/2 hr. shower twice a day??! Many wasteful habits would be cured if everyone had to spend a couple of months sailing.


I would also think that living aboard would prevent you from buying *things* that you don't really need.

In preparation for my little liveaboard, I went through all of my belongings and asked myself what do I really *NEED* (& what was given as gifts as has sentimental value) and I sold everything else on eBay!


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## DavidB.UK

Brent Swain said:


> I remember working on my first boat at age 20, and having a friend come visit. He said "You are going to have a terrible summer." I said "Yes, but worth it for the endless summer comming. " I had no interest in the dating or party scene, nor booze nor drugs, nor owning a car , expensive clothes etc etc. As a result, I was on my way to New Zealand in my own boat at age 23.


 That Sir is inspirational!



Brent Swain said:


> A big part of the problem is those who spread the myth that one should only buy new equipment at ship swindlers grossly inflated prices, and that only spending lots of money will get one into the cruising life.





Brent Swain said:


> When youth connect to the fact that they have been suckered into the myth that only the rich can cruise, and that the consumer treadmill is not the only lifestyle option available to them, its like a light going on, and their enthusiasm suddenly springs to life. Then their resourcefullness in getting into the cruising lifestyle is a wonderful thing to observe ( to the chagrin of those who had planned to exploit them for the rest of their lives).


Thats what I bought into and I lived (at 18) right next to a river where I could have kept a yacht and it was only 5miles from the sea!!! But as you have said, once one becomes enlightened...


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## smurphny

If you're going to own a sailboat, especially if you are younger and cash-strapped (your boat will assure you are cash-strapped later you should invest in being able to do the things that are necessary. Invest in a welder. Invest in some good hand tools and invest in learning how to use them. One of the things that makes me nervous about younger folks is that they depend too much on groups. They have been brought up and indoctrinated in the age of touchy-feely "groupness." "Friending" is a new verb that hints at this tendency. They are consequently manipulated easily as a group. I believe there were many more independent thinking people 40 years ago in the baby boom generation. There were a lot more old boats resurrected by 18 year-olds in the 60s. There seemed to be more kids interested in individual things that did not require a group of "friends." Also, working with one's hands to get proficient at something more than really fast texting (another new verb) was more in vogue.


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## youmeandthed

Sailing and cruising especially can be very social. In fact now that I'm cruising I spend more time socializing with people than I did when I worked 9 to 5 and went home to watch TV.

Groups are a good way to make things happen. One person did not write the declaration of independence, one person has never won a war or solved serious healthcare issues. 

My cost of living is a fraction of what it was when I lived on land, read Captn. Arrons posts about how he was making good money and living off the hook. Maybe youth should rent over priced apartments or pay hugely manipulated mortgage rates (ahem Barclays...), perhaps borrow money to buy a car, or spend money on gas and insurance to use such car. So if you live on a boat and have no money, how are you different than someone with all the land luxuries and have no equity. Easy, you are not obliged to make payments.

I do agree with the lack of ability to be hands on, but that is learned from our parents who are not very hands on either. 

Really our society now lives in perpetual fear, which is a load. Unfortunately I think my generation believes this stuff. They are also ingrained to live hand to mouth, pay monthly/bi-weekly. Many young people look to whether they can afford the monthly payments vs. saving up and owning.


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## DavidB.UK

youmeandthed said:


> I do agree with the lack of ability to be hands on, but that is learned from our parents who are not very hands on either.


Good point!
I am reasonably handy but more important than the skills of experience or direct linage of skills passed on from parents can often be 'confidence'.

If I don't know how to fix something, I have two choices _learn how_, or _pay somebody else to do it_ the latter has not always been an option and I know for many other it hasn't been either. But although I learnt some skills from my father, the biggest thing that I gleaned from his teachings was that "It's a learnable skill".


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## tommays

Well i am hands on person









And we got hands on young ones

Bret is one of the few minimalist that have passed through and shared enough about there lives to know that they walk the walk 

On the other hand there is a large periodic collection of minimalist who keeps there life fairly top secret other than to tell us how great there life is and how bad ares sucks


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## Capt.aaron

Being a minimalist takes minimal exlplanation, Buy little boat, anchor it out in bay, Live on it. Simple as simple. As for Tommays comment above, it looks like your life is pretty awesome to me. As I age I am aquiring more comforts, My most minimalist life style happend in my 20' and 30's. Now in my 40's, I have more stuff, but I have the skill and equipment to resort back to barebone's in an instant. The life I lead as a young adult was the catalist for my career today, and now I can afford to have some more stuff. I will alway's be an advocate of keeping the sailboat simply rigged and equiped with heavy duty manual stuff over complicated, expensive, fragile plastic stuff. And thank goodness Brent is here to lead by example. Spread the word man, here and any where else you can catch peoples attention.
I didn't even notice sailnet had add's.... oh, up top there, I never read that sh!t.


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## Brent Swain

Never had to. The price would have to be added to the price of the book.


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## smackdaddy

chall03 said:


> Sillier items like BFS bumper stickers???  Joking.
> Umm For sure!!! ]


I'm starting to think you're a little jealous dude. I can't help it if they're the hottest thing since skinny jeans.


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## chall03

Ok maybe just a little jealous......

Hey what about a BFS branded skinny jean??? 
Now that would really be something and it might be the exact thing to get kiddies off there Xbox's and interested in a bit of BFS action


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## smackdaddy

chall03 said:


> Ok maybe just a little jealous......
> 
> Hey what about a BFS branded skinny jean???
> Now that would really be something and it might be the exact thing to get kiddies off there Xbox's and interested in a bit of BFS action


Too late. You know that fashion has a 15 year cycle. That's why I'm working on the BFS Bellbottom Wetsuit. It's going to rage.


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## bljones

Brent Swain said:


> Never had to. The price would have to be added to the price of the book.


Thenquitcherbitchin. if you don't want to shell out to buy an ad, then don't complain when your posts disguised as ads get censored, and when you get banned form forums.
There's a fine line between thrift- as- a- lifestyle and freeloading hypocrisy. You're obviously a for-profit enterprise, otherwise you would give your books away for free, so the only thing different between you and those damn ad-buying "swindlers" to use your term, is that at least they BUY their advertising.

BTW, since it would sell more books, the price of the book could actually come down, due to the economies of scale thanks to the relatively small amount spent on advertising.

Brent, you've got a lot to offer, but you're your own worst enemy sometimes.


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## Jgbrown

smurphny said:


> If you're going to own a sailboat, especially if you are younger and cash-strapped (your boat will assure you are cash-strapped later you should invest in being able to do the things that are necessary. Invest in a welder. Invest in some good hand tools and invest in learning how to use them. One of the things that makes me nervous about younger folks is that they depend too much on groups. They have been brought up and indoctrinated in the age of touchy-feely "groupness." "Friending" is a new verb that hints at this tendency. They are consequently manipulated easily as a group. I believe there were many more independent thinking people 40 years ago in the baby boom generation. There were a lot more old boats resurrected by 18 year-olds in the 60s. There seemed to be more kids interested in individual things that did not require a group of "friends." Also, working with one's hands to get proficient at something more than really fast texting (another new verb) was more in vogue.


Agree about the first part mostly. Maybe not the welder, not a lot that can be welded on an FG boat, especially not with a consumer grade welder from Canadian Tire or some such with flux core wire etc.
The hand tools are invaluable. Cordless tools are great too. Buy longevity over gimmicks. Dewalts or a house brand of a tool company can be the best bets. Home depot has the same battery packs they've had for ages. Saves on replacing the whole tool.

I'm kicking myself for not getting a smaller cordless setup and one of those impact guns(which I've always laughed about, because how can you be too lazy to drive screws with a drill?) Best tools I've ever owned. Put the screw driver in the end, with the sleeve for driving long screws and it lets me tighten huge hose clamps in seconds without ever slipping or stripping.
Where I often avoided my big hammer drill for weight, these are just too easy.

Nonsense. At least complaining about the youth of today hasn't gone out style. :laugher 
The youth who rebuilt boats and sailed them away were not all that common then either.

While I do admit that most people my age are pretty useless, I don't believe there were that many less useless people in that age. If anything, the baby boomers are not exactly highly regarded for their ability to think about things critically or independently any more than the youth of today. How many of them had to worry about carrying insurance on the boats just to dock somewhere?
Or in case the boat sank so they wouldn't go bankrupt etc.

In any population, the majority of people will do what everyone else does, and seek approval.
Goes with being called the majority


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## Capt.aaron

bljones said:


> Thenquitcherbitchin. if you don't want to shell out to buy an ad, then don't complain when your posts disguised as ads get censored, and when you get banned form forums.
> There's a fine line between thrift- as- a- lifestyle and freeloading hypocrisy. You're obviously a for-profit enterprise, otherwise you would give your books away for free, so the only thing different between you and those damn ad-buying "swindlers" to use your term, is that at least they BUY their advertising.
> 
> BTW, since it would sell more books, the price of the book could actually come down, due to the economies of scale thanks to the relatively small amount spent on advertising.
> 
> Brent, you've got a lot to offer, but you're your own worst enemy sometimes.


But how do you really feel about it, I mean really feel,... inside. Don't pull any punches.


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## bljones

I can be either diplomatic or honest. do not expect both.


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## Capt.aaron

Nothing wrong with standing on a street corner and holding up your book and saying "Hey read this, you'll like it, I wrote it". The internet is just a busy street corner. Nothing wrong with some free press or a chance to plug your ideas, it's what's great about the internet I think. I didn't have to pay to join this sight, I'm not paying to voice my oppinion. And if any ones interested I have a sail boat for sale, and a 40 foot dive boat selling as a buisiness in Key West. I do deliveries for profit, send me a pm, I'm writing a book, look for it's promotioms on sailnet.com next year and if anybody wants to hire me for sailboat purchasing consultation I'm available, I have a tow endorsment on my liscence if you break down and need a tow, And my wife makes awesome cotton pant's with a tie string waist, they come in three colo(u)rs, white, blue and olive...oh ya, and she makes these toe to ankle bracelet things with bead's on 'em for the lady's........what else... I became a minister on line so I do weddings.


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## Jgbrown

Capt.aaron said:


> Nothing wrong with standing on a street corner and holding up your book and saying "Hey read this, you'll like it, I wrote it". The internet is just a busy street corner. Nothing wrong with some free press or a chance to plug your ideas, it's what's great about the internet I think. I didn't have to pay to join this sight, I'm not paying to voice my oppinion. And if any ones interested I have a sail boat for sale, and a 40 foot dive boat selling as a buisiness in Key West. I do deliveries for profit, send me a pm, I'm writing a book, look for it's promotioms on sailnet.com next year and if anybody wants to hire me for sailboat purchasing consultation I'm available, I have a tow endorsment on my liscence if you break down and need a tow, And my wife makes awesome cotton pant's with a tie string waist, they come in three colo(u)rs, white, blue and olive...oh ya, and she makes these toe to ankle bracelet things with bead's on 'em for the lady's........what else... I became a minister on line so I do weddings.


Normally I agree with just about everything you post but that doesn't work for me exactly.

To take that analogy a bit further The internet is a busy street, and this is a restaurant we're chatting in which we've opened the door to sit and talk in by signing up and agreeing to the dress code and other rules. If you walk into a restaurant you don't have to pay to get in the door. But if you start selling me your business, your wife's pants or trying to get me married in a restaurant you don't own, the owner is going to be mad. So am I if I don't like what you're selling. I'm likely to tell you to sell it elsewhere.

An exception is often made for the band that's playing in the corner, or the artist who's paintings are on the walls, but not all restaurants have this exception. I think Sailnet could well use having something like that, and I've heard that something to that effect may be coming in the future which makes sense. I think it's doable here because I don't imagine that every post will be answered with buy my book to see how to do what you are asking, instead the same helpful good answers are likely to be as forthcoming as always(I hope).


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## Capt.aaron

O.K. I see that, But if this is a resturaunt we are sitting in. we will be asked to leave if we don't buy something. We can't sit here an not order, or just have water, we'll get kicked out. I liken this to more of an open forum or Bazzar where we can choose to buy something we see if we like it or not. And we can choose to promote our selves and our wares. My wife hasn't made a pair of those pants in years, I've only done one wedding and that was for free, i was obviously just making a point.


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## Allen-deckard

Sorry to disagree slightly but in a bazaar the vendors typically pay to have a booth in the bazaar if you were to walk around without paying for a booth trying to hawk your wears typically a person would be escorted out. Getting off topic but just had to say. for a local example would be a flea market to which i use frequently and I'd like it pretty close to a bazaar and you don't get free reign to sell your goods.

Sailnet needs to pay the bills those being paid for with advertising.

With that said i find it odd they have zero adds on the moble version not sure why they haven't done something about that seems odd to me since the moble version is all i use since i nearly exclusively use my tablet.


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## Donna_F

Allen-deckard said:


> ...
> With that said i find it odd they have zero adds on the moble version not sure why they haven't done something about that seems odd to me since the moble version is all i use since i nearly exclusively use my tablet.


My iPhone app has an ad for the marine LEDs that I also see on my laptop.


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## copacabana

I get an ad at the top of the page for a Bob's "Crispy chicken sandwich" and it's driving me nuts! I'm starving!

I don't recall Brent selling his books here, just mentioning he has a book available. Did I miss the post? I have a copy and it's well worth buying for all the tips and insights, even if you don't have a steel boat.


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## tommays

A large number of people we doing links to there boat related business stuff in there signature and the rules were changed


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## Brent Swain

It's much easier to point to a source of the information sought, than to repeat it over and over again, especially when that source contains far more information, which would be useful to the person asking.
Complaints I get are " No, you'd best throw that Brent Furler away and give me $3K for the one I'm selling." or "You have one of those Brent boats. Get out of here. You guys build all your own gear, and dont buy nothin." or "Brent doesn't charge enough." All of which I consider compliments , reaffirming that I am doing something effective to help low income cruisers get off the treadmill and out cruising. If they considered me one of them, that I would consider an insult.I have very little need for more money, and thoughts of more money rarely cross my mind. If I put out an effort to help people get out cruising in affordable ways, and dont sweat money issues , enough will come my way to take care of my meagre needs. Any more than that is irrelevant to me. Having helped a bit is the lions share of my reward.
When my pension rolls in, the book and plans will become more of a burden to me than a benefit. I'll have to keep them going for the benefit of cruisers. I would like to give them to the womens shelter, so they could take care of distribution for a source of funding, but they only want cash.
Sites which have banned me , still use my name to promote their sites. So who is being the freeloader there? People visit sites for the information they get and those who contribute valuable info are, in effect, making the a site more attractive to viewers, which greatly enhances their value to advertisers.


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## Capt.aaron

copacabana said:


> I get an ad at the top of the page for a Bob's "Crispy chicken sandwich" and it's driving me nuts! I'm starving!
> 
> I don't recall Brent selling his books here, just mentioning he has a book available. Did I miss the post? I have a copy and it's well worth buying for all the tips and insights, even if you don't have a steel boat.


wanna sell it? (just kidding Brent)


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## joethecobbler

In response to the original question-

I see all kinds out on the water. Many of the minimalist and younger types tend to keep a low profile and I definetly see the merit in that approach. I have come full circle on telling people about the joy of living aboard. I'm tired of explaining all the newances of life on the hook. tired of defending living on the hook to the marina types. 
And what's more, I kind of like the fact that the anchorages are not full everywhere. I really like solitude and often avoid interaction with others prefering my own company.
I'm thrilled to hear that key west is doable as a liveaboard on the hook and that there are ample income opportunities. I was concerned that I missed the "boat" on that, as I'm hoping to be there this winter, aboard of course. 
Capt. Aaron - can you tell me anything about the bycycle cab jobs I see advertised? is it a real deal or just a scam ? I know I need a city bike cabby license, can I work independently or do I need to "rent" a bike from an existing buss. ? 
I have a few sailing aquaintences that lived in KW for 2 years .THey made their way working in the square selling copper wire art and face painting while on the hook. They were budget cruisers and spoke of a decent community of people on the hook around wisteria. I'm looking forward to checking it out for myself,soon. I'm hoping for a good fit, I need to find a place to be ,I afraid I'm getting old and my time is short,just want to try to enjoy what's left.


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## Capt.aaron

joethecobbler said:


> In response to the original question-
> 
> I see all kinds out on the water. Many of the minimalist and younger types tend to keep a low profile and I definetly see the merit in that approach. I have come full circle on telling people about the joy of living aboard. I'm tired of explaining all the newances of life on the hook. tired of defending living on the hook to the marina types.
> And what's more, I kind of like the fact that the anchorages are not full everywhere. I really like solitude and often avoid interaction with others prefering my own company.
> I'm thrilled to hear that key west is doable as a liveaboard on the hook and that there are ample income opportunities. I was concerned that I missed the "boat" on that, as I'm hoping to be there this winter, aboard of course.
> Capt. Aaron - can you tell me anything about the bycycle cab jobs I see advertised? is it a real deal or just a scam ? I know I need a city bike cabby license, can I work independently or do I need to "rent" a bike from an existing buss. ?
> I have a few sailing aquaintences that lived in KW for 2 years .THey made their way working in the square selling copper wire art and face painting while on the hook. They were budget cruisers and spoke of a decent community of people on the hook around wisteria. I'm looking forward to checking it out for myself,soon. I'm hoping for a good fit, I need to find a place to be ,I afraid I'm getting old and my time is short,just want to try to enjoy what's left.


I have some pedi-cab freinds and they do allright. You really have to rent from an existing bizz. I think it was $75.00 for the night which seemed like alot to me. But my buddy told me he was making about $800 a week. I see one older fellow doing it. I know it's mostly European kiids. My freind is from Serebia. I have some freinds that do Mallory Square. The guy twisting wire does well. He's good. He has a degree from MIT. My good friend did It for years making sand candles. The anchorage around Wisteria (christmas tree Island) is allright, I like Flemming key. Real Taxi drivers do well here. Lot's of options and opportunity's here


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## DavidB.UK

Capt.aaron said:


> Lot's of options and opportunity's here


Can't wait to visit!

I wasn't exactly sure where key west was until I looked it up on Google Earth, wow! Looks like an amazing place!

I have a children's foundation project that may well be coming to the US far sooner than originally planned... fingers crossed!


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## Capt.aaron

DavidB.UK said:


> Can't wait to visit!
> 
> I wasn't exactly sure where key west was until I looked it up on Google Earth, wow! Looks like an amazing place!
> 
> I have a children's foundation project that may well be coming to the US far sooner than originally planned... fingers crossed!


pm me, I'll buy you a pint. You might want to stay, be a pedi-cab driver.


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## DavidB.UK

Capt.aaron said:


> pm me, I'll buy you a pint. You might want to stay, be a pedi-cab driver.


It will be pleasure to meet you when the time comes Capt.


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## joethecobbler

thanks capt. Aaron 

It's encouraging to hear that there are a few income oprtunities. And I'l look further into the fleming key anchorage.
We sail up and down the east coast seasonally and this fall I want to go to KW because I've never been. The work issue concerned me a little as I would prefer to make a few dolars and working is usually a good way to pass time and get to know an area and the people around. I just don't want to go as a total tourist and spend myself broke. 
Last couple years I've realized that I gotta get to a few places I want to experience soon, times racing by. 
Hope to see you their.


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## Capt.aaron

joethecobbler said:


> thanks capt. Aaron
> 
> It's encouraging to hear that there are a few income oprtunities. And I'l look further into the fleming key anchorage.
> We sail up and down the east coast seasonally and this fall I want to go to KW because I've never been. The work issue concerned me a little as I would prefer to make a few dolars and working is usually a good way to pass time and get to know an area and the people around. I just don't want to go as a total tourist and spend myself broke.
> Last couple years I've realized that I gotta get to a few places I want to experience soon, times racing by.
> Hope to see you their.


Come down and get a job, we have them,. I would throw pride out the window and get down and work with the locals. Wait, bus tables. Mix concreate,paint fences, what ever. Flemmig is good in the winter. The further out the better. It's all about the dingy. If you can get on a plane, all the way out on the north west point is the best. If you have a 2.5 or are paddl'n the south west area, more crowded. either way you are close to town and work.


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## Jgbrown

Why are you giving away all the secrets! Lol. Another idea, get a job in a marina. It's helping me out, every skill I learn directly applies to my boat. 

Brent: I was thinking about what you said about the burden of maintaining the book. Have you considered having it converted for e book readers? E-books have the advantage of income, without the paper and mailing etc, sold online it would mean a lot less effort involved. I will be buying a copy when I can, but I would have already bought it if it were online. Minimal space means minimal paper, and I just prefer ebooks for that. Plus they don't tend to go out of print or get lost so easy.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## chris_gee

Sorry. I am a wee bit of a sceptic. Sure you can sail on low budget boat or live on one and make a living in various ways. I doubt I could pick up 300 -500 a day in tips as a waitress.
Hmm the concept puts one off tipping rather. I mean do your congresspersons make that much?
Umm the trishaw whatevers - guess the unemployed or underemployed haven't heard of that scam or the old market rules blah blah has had a hiccup.
Seems to me that it is as hard to make a buck as ever unless the greater fool theory is true. Tee hee.


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## Capt.aaron

chris_gee said:


> Sorry. I am a wee bit of a sceptic. Sure you can sail on low budget boat or live on one and make a living in various ways. I doubt I could pick up 300 -500 a day in tips as a waitress.
> Hmm the concept puts one off tipping rather. I mean do your congresspersons make that much?
> Umm the trishaw whatevers - guess the unemployed or underemployed haven't heard of that scam or the old market rules blah blah has had a hiccup.
> Seems to me that it is as hard to make a buck as ever unless the greater fool theory is true. Tee hee.


It can be done. $500 is a double shift during season on a sunday here in KW at a popular wharf side seafood place as a head waitress in the best section. That takes time to get to that position. As a bar back in a simular type place, I was making $200 a day. As a bar back in the night big club,I made a least $300 a shift. Showed up a 4 p.m. and left the place at 6 a.m. the next day. Brutal. Hard job to get. As newbie in town you can easily break a $100 a shift if you are good. Not everybody can wait tables at this kind of volume, we have some of the best down here. A lot of people go back and forth between Some northern tourist town in the summer and winter here. I know i guy who single handed between Rhode Island and Key West every year to do just that. In a town where every body works for tips you have locals making good money and then go out an tip big. it's a part of the service industry culture. You definatly won't belive what a Sloppy Joes bar tender is making a year.


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## sloss321

Over the last couple of years my wife and I have been downsizing and getting rid of all the unnecessary fixed expenses that we thought people weren't supposed to live without. We're almost able to live off of one income and actually enjoy out life much better than before because we don't have the stress of having to pay so much money every month. Now I'm am doing everything in my power to get the wife to get the boat and live on it instead of renting or buying the house.

Realistically, we are going to be working for awhile because of student loan debt. We also have two big dogs and do want to start having kids, but from reading this website and many others, nothing seems impossible once you put your mind to it. The one thing we do know is that we are no longer waiting for that elusive retirement date and nest egg to enjoy life.


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## Cruisingdad

youmeandthed said:


> I'm curious on opinions on this one. When Baby boomers were in their 20's there were lots of them in small capable sailboats (some they made themselves) cruising across oceans; but now-a-days the majority of twenty-year olds appear to be utterly useless. I just don't get it, and I'm in my twenties, and cruising.
> 
> I'm also curious as to where people think the future of the sailing industry is going if there are so few young people involved?
> 
> Any thoughts?


Believe you are in Panama, right? You seen this thread? http://www.sailnet.com/forums/pirac...-couple-bocas-del-toro-panama.html#post894656

Just checking in. Hope you are ok.

Brian


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## youmeandthed

Yes we are ok, pretty close call on that one. I talked to the couple today. They are in rough shape but doing well considering.


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## Serendipitous

I'm not sure why there aren't more young sailors out there? Maybe it is a trickle down from the generation before us not partaking in it as much either. Or maybe people our age don't know that you can buy a decently cheap boat just to have fun with on the weekends. At least we're out there living the dream, right?  (or I will be in a few weeks)


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## sloss321

My wife are going to be getting into sailing in a couple of weeks when we take our first weekend course at The Manhattan Sailing School! We are 30 and neither one of us have sailors in our families. We can't wait to experience this lifestyle!!!!

I think finding an affordable solution today is what prevents a lot of younger people from partaking in sailing. After the weekend course we plan on joining the Manhattan Sailing Club because you basically have access to their sailboats whenever the schedule permits. Therefore no need for us to worry about getting a boat of our own right away and all the costs that come along with it.


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## crstophr

I'm about to turn 39. We live in the SF bay area and have great jobs, dual income, no kids, no debt (no CC, school loans, nothing). Our vehicles are all old and paid for, we save money every month. Sadly we live in an area where there are too many people and not enough housing. Rents are insanely high for even a modest place to live. Sales and fuel taxes make everything more expensive. We do OK but we have to be careful. God help us when we want to have kids.... in most other parts of the country we'd be living well at our income level. Not here. If you're older and you bought your house in the 80s and 90s you're doing great. if you bought lately... well... you're spending most of your available income paying a mortgage that 2-3 maybe 4x what your older neighbor pays. Salaries have not kept up with inflation and the rise of living expenses.

I think that good sailing areas tend to be high demand areas to live and the cost of living is very high. If you're a younger person with a mortgage you just can't reasonably justify a boat loan. If you're handy and have time to put work into it you can support an older boat. If not you can't afford the loan or the maintenance costs. 

Someone please tell me where we can live so that I can get a good job with computers, support a family, have a reasonable cost of living, and still have a nice place to own a boat and sail. Any country will do. We dream of this life all the time...


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## travlin-easy

Here's some advice to the younger boaters who currently don't own a boat, from an old man that has owned 17 boats in his 71-year lifetime. 

First and foremost, you don't need to buy a new boat. In many respects it will depreciate as fast as a car, and at about the same rate of depreciation. Buy used - it's the best way to go, especially if you've never owned a boat.

Next, don't buy a boat from a friend unless you no longer want him or her as friends. Friends always seem to believe they can get top dollar for a boat they either can no longer afford, or no longer want.

Think smaller. Everyone would love to have a boat big enough to sail around the globe and live comfortably on. Odds are that you will NOT sail circumnavigate the globe - even if you're young. Try your hand a day sailing, maybe some overnights to a not too distant cove or creek and enjoy the waters close to home. I know lots of folks that have trailerable sailboats that they store in the driveway or behind the house when they're working, then haul it to a new place every weekend and explore new vistas that are just a short drive from home. Others that live in apartments store their boats on marina parking lots, thereby eliminating the task of putting the mast and rigging in place every time they want to go sailing. Saves them lots of time and money.

If and when you decide that you wish to go bigger, take your time and do some research before taking the plunge and buying something that must remain at a marina because it's too large to transport. Do some internet shopping, but also drive to all the nearby marinas and talk with the dockmaster to find out if there is a make and model of the boat you are primarily interested in available at that location. More often than not you will find it using this method, or the dockmaster can point you in the direction of where that boat may be located.

Derelict boats can be found in nearly every marina, large or small. These boats are not always junkers that are ready for the scrap heap. Many have been abandoned simply because the owner has passed away and the marina has a storage lean on the boat in hopes of regaining some of their losses for slip rent or dry storage. I've seen some 27-Catalinas in excellent condition go for as little as $4,000 and more recently saw a 30-Catalina-T go for under $10,000, which was the repair bill when the owner said he was tired of boating and walked away.

For the most part, the youngsters, folks under age 30, that I've encountered seem to want something that goes fast, you only need to insert a key and fill it with gas and you can travel 100 miles in less than 3 hours. I was that way until I was about 60 years old. Now, I'm not in a hurry to get anywhere - even when driving the van. Guess that's among the many reasons sailing caught my interest.

Hope this helps some of you youngsters that are pondering what direction to go,

Gary


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## night0wl

crstophr said:


> Someone please tell me where we can live so that I can get a good job with computers, support a family, have a reasonable cost of living, and still have a nice place to own a boat and sail. Any country will do. We dream of this life all the time...


North Carolina. Great tech job area and banking.

South Carolina.

Tampa area

Houston area (Galveston)

Seattle/Pacific Northwest is pricey, but not San Fran pricey. Great tech jobs area.

Chesapeake area has lots of (govt/gov't contractor) jobs...pricey but affordable considering the pay scale.

To me, its a matter of priorities. I used to spend my money on a new car every 3 years. Now, our cars are 6 and 7 years old and will go till 10-15. That money is poured into a boat


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## chrisncate

Put yourself in a "30 and under" mindset:

What appeals, and what is the draw for sailboat cruising... exactly?


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## smackdaddy

chrisncate said:


> Put yourself in a "30 and under" mindset:
> 
> What appeals, and what is the draw for sailboat cruising... exactly?


Adventure...exactly.

Here's the thing - if you have a decent sailboat on the ocean, you can, literally, point it toward any point on the planet and get there. It will be hard, it will be dangerous, but it is entirely possible.

That, my friend, is magic.


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## chrisncate

smackdaddy said:


> Adventure...exactly.
> 
> Here's the thing - if you have a decent sailboat on the ocean, you can, literally, point it toward any point on the planet and get there. It will be hard, it will be dangerous, but it is entirely possible.
> 
> That, my friend, is magic.


No no, you're answering as though you are talking to _me_ - _I_ still get why cruising the world in a sailboat has it's appeal, even though I'm not going cruising - I do still see it and get it even if I'm not going to do it now.

I'm saying, take your average gen Y or "millennial", then think about being them now - where none of your friends go outside to "play" for the most part, and the bad economy and general lack of physical activity are the new norm and all you've ever known.

Then.. add in the uber need and reliance on technology _for_ fulfillment that is very hard to afford, install and maintain on a cruising yacht and you begin to see why the kids don't cruise and why cruising is prolly going to die out even more as this decade and the next unfold.

I believe that the generation after mine (I'm an X) just doesn't have the interest, will, skill or drive to build and/or sail cruising boats. Even if they have the money to do so. As an X'er, I can motivate and build a boat up (as evidenced), and I could certainly sail it prolly anywhere if I still had the will/desire to do so - Y'ers/millenials? Not so much it seems as a whole.

It's a fact that the Y generation has had almost a 25% drop in even getting _drivers licenses_ when eligible, compared to prior generations..


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## chris_gee

Try Auckland - I believe the highest number of boats per head. Housing is expensive though and wages not so great.
Oh and if you can point a credit card anywhere you can go there too in a fraction of the time and cost.


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## WDS123

My impression of the under 30 crowd is that they are very very social.

Sailing would have to appeal to their social side - new friends and comrades; not the solitude of a night watch.


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## aeventyr60

smackdaddy said:


> Adventure...exactly.
> 
> Here's the thing - if you have a decent sailboat on the ocean, you can, literally, point it toward any point on the planet and get there. It will be hard, it will be dangerous, but it is entirely possible.
> 
> That, my friend, is magic.


The "adventure" may be too big for some generations who are locked into the social media lifestyle, seem to need an "APP" for every crucial life skill and don't understand the "magic" of anything having difficult, dangerous or dirty in the equation. I wonder if there is a sort of "death of dreaming" in our younger society these days?

Glad I was able to get out while I was youngish... at 37.


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## Tournant

I haven't posted much, been concentrating on working my way though every thread. This one personally resonates so here I go ...

My four brothers and I practically grew up on our Grampion, we lived minutes away from the town dock in Lindenhurst, NY. Full time Mom who grew up sailing in the UK and my Dad, an A&P mechanic with BOAC at Kennedy, was a Brooklyn boy whose father always had boats he'd keep at Howard Beach.

DH and I are in our late 40's with two boys, 14 & 15. We survived losing my husband's business a few years back - the economy was not kind to small businesses that served other small businesses - and I chose to leave a really good paying job as a corporate executive chef to become the world's most overqualified (C.I.A. grad) school lunch lady in order to be home more with the boys as they hit their teenage years. We are close to Naptown and the cost of living around here isn't the cheapest but we live carefully and frugally with no debt except for our mortgage but money is still tight, we struggle to not dip into let alone contribute to our meager savings to just get thorough each month but we are managing, happy and content with where things are.

Even with no real disposable income I've started pushing hard lately to get back into sailing for a couple of reasons: 
1. I don't want to wake up next to my husband one morning and realize we have nothing to talk about after spending years concentrating on just barely keeping things together for the family 
2. I want something the four of us can enjoy together as the boys get older 
3. I cannot wait to see the them securely launched and independent, sell all our **** and take off to wander the earth having adventures; I suffer from seriously growing wanderlust. DH has never sailed before but cautiously agrees the idea is doable (I have no doubts) and thinks it sounds like a hoot 
4. I've always had a thing for pirates
5. Duh ... we live close to Naptown 

Coming up with a couple of large to take formal lessons isn't going to happen but we did take the 15 week CGA course over the last winter. The guys have always been heavy into scouting and have hooked up with the local Sea Scouts. It's a small, not very active ship but the couple of dads involved are awesome. We scored a couple of Groupons for half day intros at the Annapolis Sailing School and I'm about to pull the trigger on a family membership at Annapolis Community sailing - we got out a few weeks ago on their free-sail day and had a blast. My oldest is a STEM HS student and is doing his two week summer bridge program with the NSHF's Learning Math & Science Through Sailing Initiative program.

Anyway, that's where we stand as far as getting out on the water 

Reckon I was the one taking this pic:


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## puddinlegs

night0wl said:


> Seattle/Pacific Northwest is pricey, but not San Fran pricey. Great tech jobs area.


Year round sailing. You need cabin heat and good foulies. Better cruising than the SF area for sure.

Tough thread. Having worked and sailed a lot with 'younger' folks, personally, I just don't get all the slagging of the 20 somethings. A lot of it seems to be anecdotal information from crap like Huffpost and Fox about how crappy the uppity youngsters are. I just haven't found it to be true. The ones I know seem very focused, motivated, working hard trying to keep ahead in a truly uncertain and wild west economic environment. Just read about a young woman sailing and surfing her way around Mexico in something like a Catalina 23. I guess I've just had enough of the previous generation complaining about the next. It's old, it's tired, and makes me wonder if people even spend significant time with or know anyone under 40. If you're over 40, you have the good fortune of hindsight which makes many of the younger generations 'follies in progress' painful to watch. You know why? We've already been there and done that, but we forgot because somehow we've muddled through and all we have left are our very selective memories... if that. So to all of you pissing and moaning about the younger folks, I say get some out sailing with you. If they aren't interested in sailing with you, it's more than likely because you're too busy 'telling' and not listening or actually conversing. Will you meet some who really are tools? Sure, but not to any extent greater than you would have 20 or 30 years ago... hell, a 100 for that matter.


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## aeventyr60

puddinlegs said:


> Year round sailing. You need cabin heat and good foulies. Better cruising than the SF area for sure.
> 
> Tough thread. Having worked and sailed a lot with 'younger' folks, personally, I just don't get all the slagging of the 20 somethings. A lot of it seems to be anecdotal information from crap like Huffpost and Fox about how crappy the uppity youngsters are. I just haven't found it to be true. The ones I know seem very focused, motivated, working hard trying to keep ahead in a truly uncertain and wild west economic environment. Just read about a young woman sailing and surfing her way around Mexico in something like a Catalina 23. I guess I've just had enough of the previous generation complaining about the next. It's old, it's tired, and makes me wonder if people even spend significant time with or know anyone under 40. If you're over 40, you have the good fortune of hindsight which makes many of the younger generations 'follies in progress' painful to watch. You know why? We've already been there and done that, but we forgot because somehow we've muddled through and all we have left are our very selective memories... if that. So to all of you pissing and moaning about the younger folks, I say get some out sailing with you. If they aren't interested in sailing with you, it's more than likely because you're too busy 'telling' and not listening or actually conversing. Will you meet some who really are tools? Sure, but not to any extent greater than you would have 20 or 30 years ago... hell, a 100 for that matter.


For any of you 20 somethings that would like to experience the cruising lifestyle and just happen to be in Asia in the next year or so let me know. You will be welcome to join AEVENTYR for a 1 Week trip, all onboard expenses paid, just get here. Limited to 1 young person only, any nationallity, race, creed, sex etc....PM me for the details.
Sorry, Smackdaddy you be too old for this one!


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## smurphny

crstophr said:


> I'm about to turn 39. We live in the SF bay area and have great jobs, dual income, no kids, no debt (no CC, school loans, nothing). Our vehicles are all old and paid for, we save money every month. Sadly we live in an area where there are too many people and not enough housing. Rents are insanely high for even a modest place to live. Sales and fuel taxes make everything more expensive. We do OK but we have to be careful. God help us when we want to have kids.... in most other parts of the country we'd be living well at our income level. Not here. If you're older and you bought your house in the 80s and 90s you're doing great. if you bought lately... well... you're spending most of your available income paying a mortgage that 2-3 maybe 4x what your older neighbor pays. Salaries have not kept up with inflation and the rise of living expenses.
> 
> I think that good sailing areas tend to be high demand areas to live and the cost of living is very high. If you're a younger person with a mortgage you just can't reasonably justify a boat loan. If you're handy and have time to put work into it you can support an older boat. If not you can't afford the loan or the maintenance costs.
> 
> Someone please tell me where we can live so that I can get a good job with computers, support a family, have a reasonable cost of living, and still have a nice place to own a boat and sail. Any country will do. We dream of this life all the time...


You've got the right idea. Stay out of debt. Debt is slavery and affects all area of your life. Worrying about debt is the #1 cause of stress, depression, etc. It is surely a VERY bad idea to get in debt for a sailboat. As others have indicated, there are lots of very good old boats to be had in this economy. The expenses involved in owning a boat are high and should be in the "paid for in cash" category.

If you are making good salaries, keep saving, and employ "sweat equity" in everything you do, including a house. As far as living in a place with low housing costs, there are many. It's all about supply and demand. You may have to look on the outskirts of attractive areas and do some long commuting. Paying an extra couple of hundred bucks for gas each month to drive to work is a small amount compared to paying a thousand or more for rent in a place in the center of a high rent district.

If you find a place where you like to work (the majority of your waking time), like the people, the place, the salary, etc. This kind of career move should be the main concern. It is often wise to then find a house within driving range, in the outskirt zone where prices have not yet gone through the roof and the house will more likely gain in value. Don't buy some crappy tract house, built by a developer, build it right and do it yourself, even if that means simply hiring local contractors to do it.


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## bljones

puddinlegs said:


> Year round sailing. You need cabin heat and good foulies. Better cruising than the SF area for sure.
> 
> Tough thread. Having worked and sailed a lot with 'younger' folks, personally, I just don't get all the slagging of the 20 somethings. A lot of it seems to be anecdotal information from crap like Huffpost and Fox about how crappy the uppity youngsters are. I just haven't found it to be true. The ones I know seem very focused, motivated, working hard trying to keep ahead in a truly uncertain and wild west economic environment. Just read about a young woman sailing and surfing her way around Mexico in something like a Catalina 23. I guess I've just had enough of the previous generation complaining about the next. It's old, it's tired, and makes me wonder if people even spend significant time with or know anyone under 40. If you're over 40, you have the good fortune of hindsight which makes many of the younger generations 'follies in progress' painful to watch. You know why? We've already been there and done that, but we forgot because somehow we've muddled through and all we have left are our very selective memories... if that. So to all of you pissing and moaning about the younger folks, I say get some out sailing with you. If they aren't interested in sailing with you, it's more than likely because you're too busy 'telling' and not listening or actually conversing. Will you meet some who really are tools? Sure, but not to any extent greater than you would have 20 or 30 years ago... hell, a 100 for that matter.


Your opinion of those who posted here doesn't change the fact that...
-fewer people under 30 have their driver's license, the first step on the road to adventure and independence, than 30 years ago.
-fewer people under 30 are leaving home to live independently than 30 years ago. You can't blame the economy- young people were travelling the country in droves during the Depression, for example.
-interest in sailing is lower than it was 30 years ago. Fleets are smaller, sailors older.

Slag those of us here who are over 40 all you want, facts is facts. The gen Ys you meet may be "focused and motivated and working hard"... but maybe that's beacause , by your own admission you "work and sailed" with them. They have already drunk the kool-aid- Think your sample might be just as biased as you feel the opinions posted here are?

What does hearten me, being the over- 40, non- Huffington post reading, listening conversationalist that I am, is the flurry of teen circumnavigation that we haven't seen before...ever. I hope that over the next decade this translates into more interest, plants seeds that will grow the next generation of adventurers.


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## chall03

Yes costs of living is high, Yes inflation has overtaken wage growth, yes the economy is in the ****e, yes we all have less leisure time, yes mortgages are hard, BUT I think it does come down to the individual and how badly you want it.

Our story is this.

My wife and I are living in a extremely expensive city by both national and worldwide standards. In our twenties we worked hard and while all our friends were complaining that no one our age could buy a place in this city, we scrimped and saved and did the overtime on the weekends and bought a dump of an apartment. We then spent our weekends working on the place, doing what we could. 

Similarly we never though we could own a boat in our twenties, but again we saved and scrimped and bought something that wasn't pretty and needed work. We didn't have flash cars or cool holidays and for our first wedding anniversary I brought my beloved takeaway pizza and beer while repainting our antifoul.

Now in our 30s we have started our family, we own a small house, a beat up cruising boat that we were cruising the Queensland coast on last year and have structured our careers so that we can continue to have extended periods of time off to go cruising. 

We are not rich. We have always just worked hard with moderate incomes and while we have perhaps had some luck we have also made life decisions over a 10 year period, sacrificed where we have had to, and stuck to our guns. 

I say this not to blow smoke up my own ass, but to hopefully inspire those who are young and want to go cruising that it is doable. 

To quote a Gen X/Y Icon Yoda "Do or do not. There is no try"


----------



## youmeandthed

> What does hearten me, being the over- 40, non- Huffington post reading, listening conversationalist that I am, is the flurry of teen circumnavigation that we haven't seen before...ever. I hope that over the next decade this translates into more interest, plants seeds that will grow the next generation of adventurers.


I think this might be exsactly the reason younger generations are so messed up. Dad says to his little girl "Abby, wouldn't you like to sail around the world?"

"Yes Daddy, that would be amazing!"
"Well we better get you on a 5 year training plan and buy you a boat that I can equip up for you, I think $500k should be enough for a good boat."

This is not inspiring in the least, in fact it is further building the sterotype that you need a financier backing you to get out there and sail.

I am way more social now that I am cruising and away from TV, and a cubicle.

I think the drivers licence thing has more to do with apathy for a system that is complicated and expensive. The functionality of a car has not changed, but they are boring (silver, grey, black) and about as fun as a work cubicle. Another reason may be the push in society for everyone to think the same, look the same, and act the same. We are conditioned from kindergarden to be well behaved citizens. I think I was the first kid to ever get sent to the principals office in kindergarden, and now I'm 27, living on a boat in Panama, have a gorgeous and sane wife, and still have an apartment in one of the most expensive cities in the world. Plus two conformist university degrees. Creativity and outside the box thinking is dead in generation Y. This generation is too conditioned to follow "the rules".


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## night0wl

Man, there seems to be a lot of negativity directed at the next upcoming generation. Sounds like a lot of bitter old men talking about how they raised themselves up by their bootstraps. I call ********. Many of you forget about help they got from a family member (interest free loan or gift) for that downpayment on that first fixer upper home....or the countless weekends that uncles/aunts/cousins that came over to help with home improvement projects or moving. Hypocrites...you have lost touch with reality, IMHO (and I'm likely closer to your age than these millenials). 

What I believe is happening is a shift that happened in Japan a decade or so ago. Young people there have stopped buying cars, stopped getting married, stopped having kids...and you know why? Despite their best efforts to work and get ahead, they *CANNOT* get ahead. The dream has passed them over. The system is stacked against them...with elderly and older workers secure with pensions and beneficiaries of lifetime employment policies (because they vote in larger #'s). So the younger people do what any rational person does....they live within their means, cut back to the bone, dont get married (freedom to jump at that next opportunity..not settling down), dont have kids (expensive) and hope and pray for better days ahead. Its a lost generation...many of them are absolutely empty/dead inside because they have no wife or husband or children for support as their parents die off. Its really quiet, angry, despair...and that is the future you members of Baby Boom have handed off to your kids for the good times you squandered.

Look at the union concessions we've seen in Detroit and elsewhere...creating 2 tier systems protecting older workers and their rights/benefits, at the cost of younger workers. I see the same across the USA...so any rational person would expect the same results! 

You old codgers should worry about this, who is going to buy your boat when you're ready to sell? Deflation is a spiral that is VERY tough to pull out of.


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## Pegu club

WDS123 said:


> My impression of the under 30 crowd is that they are very very social.
> 
> Sailing would have to appeal to their social side - new friends and comrades; not the solitude of a night watch.


No doubt on what your saying, they are very social but being social has little to do with being adventurous, the twenty and early thirties people I interact with daily are not what I would call adventure seekers, there are exceptions to this of course, but by and large most fall into the car and mall life style.
Being social for this age group seems is more about being dependent on others opinions and acceptance than being independent / adventurous. It takes an adventurous soul to want to sail.


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## sneuman

I agree with Chris. At the risk of sounding like a middle-aged curmudgeon, I think video games do have something to do with it. They have a dangerously low "threshold to entry" and the counterproductive nature of being reset without consequence. Sailing takes effort, at least some effort, a skill set and the consequences of "getting it wrong" can be quite real. Too much trouble for the video game generation.


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## peterchech

My father just got into sailing because I introduced him into it (he is in his 50's). He always wanted a sailboat, but walking by the marina and looking at all the boats, he had always imagined that it was only a rich man's sport. The impression of inaccessibility is what kept him from sailing all these years. Now he is a regular sailing obsessive just like most of us here


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## sneuman

peterchech said:


> My father just got into sailing because I introduced him into it (he is in his 50's). He always wanted a sailboat, but walking by the marina and looking at all the boats, he had always imagined that it was only a rich man's sport. The impression of inaccessibility is what kept him from sailing all these years. Now he is a regular sailing obsessive just like most of us here


Agreed. There is that. But again, I think the barrier to entry is also there. I have talked to so many power boaters who think learning the names and uses of "all those ropes" would be too much for them (get real!). For them, it's easier to just jump in and turn the key.


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## peterchech

I never would have gotten into sailing if not for the Boy Scouts. No one in my family sailed, and sunfish at summer camp were my introduction to sailing. If not for that, I am not sure I ever would have gotten the bug, years later, to start sailing dinghies and ultimately (when i finally could *barely* afford it) a real keel boat. I would not have known where to start.

Around Manhattan, there are several programs taking inner city kids (like I was) out sailing on Colgate 26's and j-24's. We need more programs like this, and like scouting, that introduce city kids especially (not just disadvantaged city kids, white flight reversed years ago don't forget) to the blast that sailing really is.


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## Tournant

My two knuckleheads were intrigued when they heard "think of a sailboat as an airplane on it's side".


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## Capn Zack

I always tip the pedi-cab guys really well- summer in Key West is a brutal time to be schlepping tourists around.

On to lack of young cruisers- If they have a new boat, it's expensive and very difficult to finance for someone without a lot of credit history- I just spent 6 weeks getting a $100k loan for a new Hunter 36 underwritten for a 23 year old with perfect credit. If they get an older boat like mine (a 1969 Whitby 45), every nut, bolt, electronic gear and rigging costs a bloody fortune and requires some skills to maintain.

No easy answers, but I just take whatever chance I can to expose kids to sailing who haven't been around it....


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## puddinlegs

...


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## puddinlegs

bljones said:


> Your opinion of those who posted here doesn't change the fact that...
> -fewer people under 30 have their driver's license, the first step on the road to adventure and independence, than 30 years ago.
> -fewer people under 30 are leaving home to live independently than 30 years ago. You can't blame the economy- young people were travelling the country in droves during the Depression, for example.
> -interest in sailing is lower than it was 30 years ago. Fleets are smaller, sailors older.
> 
> Slag those of us here who are over 40 all you want, facts is facts. The gen Ys you meet may be "focused and motivated and working hard"... but maybe that's beacause , by your own admission you "work and sailed" with them. They have already drunk the kool-aid- Think your sample might be just as biased as you feel the opinions posted here are?
> 
> What does hearten me, being the over- 40, non- Huffington post reading, listening conversationalist that I am, is the flurry of teen circumnavigation that we haven't seen before...ever. I hope that over the next decade this translates into more interest, plants seeds that will grow the next generation of adventurers.


Sorry that you feel I've singled you out. But if I have, oh well. We might be in a unique situation in Seattle where there are a number of younger folks buying older boats, fixing them up, and racing/sailing the hell out of them. Yes, my sample is biased to two locations that I know pretty well, Seattle and a whole bunch of young designers (industrial, architecture, communication) in Japan. No, the kids in Japan aren't sailing, but they're working damn hard doing interesting things and just getting by.

This is not a simple nor one dimensional problem of 'computer games' and spoiled youth. Yeah, young people travelled all over during the depressing.... to simply survive. Very bad analogy. A lot of younger folks don't drive because families can barely afford gas for getting to work yet along jr. taking a date to the prom or going to the submarine races. As for having already 'drank the kool-aid', we'll have at least two 20 somethings on the boat tonight who didn't grow up sailing, but just think boats are cool. One is a university student living on a 25' boat, the other someone who just likes the people she's been exposed to on our boat and others she sails with.

I'd also hope that a lot of the older crowd here remember the age group that's risking life and limb every day and coming home to very diminished economic prospects. We're in the middle of a world wide structural political and economic shift because of radical changes in how we communicate that hasn't been seen since the likes of the invention of the printing press, Martin Luther, and the reformation. If anyone including current presidents and potential contenders really think they know where all this is going and what the end result will be in the US, they're kidding themselves. That young people are sailing at all is an accomplishment. So am I biased? Yes. I am because I've also taught them.


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## smurphny

The main differences in kids now and then have been created solely by our generation. They are a reflection of our culture. We have done a pretty lousy job on the whole by lowering the academic bar, by sending good jobs for youth overseas, by propagating perma-war, the consumer society, and by convincing our youth that the best path in life is to avoid self-sufficiency by using one's hands in favor of becoming banksters or participating in making money through litigation. The baby boom generation has NOTHING to brag about, turning the idealism of the 60s into the culture of money and greed of today. Comparing kids then and now is NOT comparing apples and apples. Having retired from teaching marvelous 13 year-olds in a frustratingly broken p.s. system, I feel our generation has really let these kids down.


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## chrisncate

A person can't deny the obvious differences between the generations that remember the pre internet days, and the ones that do not. I believe that viewing this "new world" we now live in via technology in the same old way: "oh, every generation thinks they know more than the younger ones coming up" is just not accurate anymore. Technology is changing the way people are, and where I live (and probably you as well) it's undeniable that kids don't go outside anywhere near like they did when we were young. As a whole, this is not an "outside" generation at all, even if there are exceptions here and there.

Cate has a very large family, and she has nieces, nephews and cousins in the late teen/twenty something set. I am always stunned when I ask them "got your license yet?" only to get the inevitable "no", with no explanation whatsoever as they check their device (Facebook I assume)... My neighbor in fact, right next door has a 20 year old daughter and 18 year old son. Neither ever leave the house that I have observed in any kind of social way (other than to go on their back deck to smoke), and neither drive cars. At that age being inside and home all the time is something I cannot even _begin_ to relate too, it's so weird.

Kids today play the "guitar hero" _game_ and think that is talent and actually playing guitar. Kids from my era actually started _bands_ with musical instruments, you know what I mean? It just isn't the same anymore. Who knows, maybe soon they'll make some new game that has a winch and a wheel as the controllers, and you can sail/cruise "virtually"... (no thanks, I'm good... have at it though)..

It's never a good idea to generalize one person of course, but when judged as a generation overall, Y's/millennials really seem to very often be oversized, oddly shaped, terrible at human interaction/social graces and are quite shut in and glued to a screen or device (I attribute the odd shapes to what we feed kids these days, but that's clearly another topic..).

Huh, now that I think about it - I don't trust anyone under 30...


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## smallboatlover

the internet is just another way to help me boat i can find cheaper boating parts online. And i can find out what the winds will be so i can plan acordanly for my day of sailing. I sail all the time and love boating the internet is a great tool.


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## chrisncate

in Haiku?

The net helps me boat
A plan for wind the net says
I sail all the time


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## bljones

puddinlegs said:


> Sorry that you feel I've singled you out. But if I have, oh well. We might be in a unique situation in Seattle where there are a number of younger folks buying older boats, fixing them up, and racing/sailing the hell out of them. Yes, my sample is biased to two locations that I know pretty well, Seattle and a whole bunch of young designers (industrial, architecture, communication) in Japan. No, the kids in Japan aren't sailing, but they're working damn hard doing interesting things and just getting by.
> 
> This is not a simple nor one dimensional problem of 'computer games' and spoiled youth. Yeah, young people travelled all over during the depressing.... to simply survive. Very bad analogy. A lot of younger folks don't drive because families can barely afford gas for getting to work yet along jr. taking a date to the prom or going to the submarine races. As for having already 'drank the kool-aid', we'll have at least two 20 somethings on the boat tonight who didn't grow up sailing, but just think boats are cool. One is a university student living on a 25' boat, the other someone who just likes the people she's been exposed to on our boat and others she sails with.
> 
> I'd also hope that a lot of the older crowd here remember the age group that's risking life and limb every day and coming home to very diminished economic prospects. We're in the middle of a world wide structural political and economic shift because of radical changes in how we communicate that hasn't been seen since the likes of the invention of the printing press, Martin Luther, and the reformation. If anyone including current presidents and potential contenders really think they know where all this is going and what the end result will be in the US, they're kidding themselves. That young people are sailing at all is an accomplishment. So am I biased? Yes. I am because I've also taught them.


I don't feel singled out at all. i just am the guy who responded to your inaccurate generalizations. And pump your brakes on the hyperbole- It's a recession, not the end of the world, and it has hit homeowners, career blue collar workers and those over 40 a hell of a lot harder than it has hit those in their 20s. not being able to find a job you really want when you graduate with your McDegree is not the same as seeing your 401K evaporate, your career disappear and your home equity evaporate, all while supporting your aging parents who won't die and your stay-at-home kids who won't live.

In fact, i posit that Gen y has the most to gain from this recession simply because of their possible adaptability and portability, exactly the reason why the "greatest generation" migrated during the 30s, looking for opportunity, thereby supporting my comparison, which is not, btw, an analogy... i hope you are not teaching them English.


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## night0wl

bljones said:


> I don't feel singled out at all. i just am the guy who responded to your inaccurate generalizations. And pump your brakes on the hyperbole- It's a recession, not the end of the world, and it has hit homeowners, career blue collar workers and those over 40 a hell of a lot harder than it has hit those in their 20s. not being able to find a job you really want when you graduate with your McDegree is not the same as seeing your 401K evaporate, your career disappear and your home equity evaporate, all while supporting your aging parents who won't die and your stay-at-home kids who won't live.
> 
> In fact, i posit that Gen y has the most to gain from this recession simply because of their possible adaptability and portability, exactly the reason why the "greatest generation" migrated during the 30s, looking for opportunity, thereby supporting my comparison, which is not, btw, an analogy... i hope you are not teaching them English.


You're wrong...unemployment has disproportionately hit the youth of the country. Source: Unemployment Demographics | Department of Numbers










And not having a job after gaining a college degree is more damaging than you say. It puts you at a LIFE LONG disadvantage. Its called "lost generation" for a reason. People that cannot establish a working pattern early in career have shorter lifespans, suffer from more physical and mental health issues, have fewer children get divorced more, etc etc.

Oh, and they also tend to cause radical revolutions (Iran in the 70s, Cuba in the 50s, Arab spring in the current era).

So while your 401(k) may have taken a hit, to be frank, you've already contributed to society and will soon become a net debit....you're spent! The youth are wasting their most productive years. Hence the "lost generation" tag...its a generation of lost value to society.


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## bljones

I respectfully disagree- if you don't own a home, still live at home, and are out of work for a year or so until you finally realize that yes, you will have to start at the bottom and bust your butt even with a degree, the impact on the economy as a whole is minor compared to the evaporation of trillions of dollars of equity and the foreclosures of millions of homes along with the disappearance of skilled blue collar jobs. 
It's real simple. People without a driver's license don't buy cars. people living at home don't buy homes. no cars and no homes means no furniture, no appliances, no trailers, etc...
Therefore the impact of their unemployment on the economy overall is negligible. 

Your own example shows that 35-44 is STILL impacted. Until Gen X feels comfortable with sepnding money, the economy si gonna be stadning still, and it is hard for gen X to feel comfortable when their coddled helicoptered, no summer-job-having non-driving, liberal arts grad kids are still living at home.

SWMBO and I have two kids, a 19 year old son and a 17 year old daughter. For almost half a decade they have been the only members of their peer group who have had to have summer jobs, part time jobs or volunteer jobs. That fact simultaneously stuns me, and makes me very proud of them.
Yes, they hate me. I am okay with that.


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## puddinlegs

Interesting. You're in Canada which does have some differences.


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## Patient

night0wl said:


> You're wrong...unemployment has disproportionately hit the youth of the country. Source: Unemployment Demographics | Department of Numbers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And not having a job after gaining a college degree is more damaging than you say. It puts you at a LIFE LONG disadvantage. Its called "lost generation" for a reason. People that cannot establish a working pattern early in career have shorter lifespans, suffer from more physical and mental health issues, have fewer children get divorced more, etc etc.
> 
> Oh, and they also tend to cause radical revolutions (Iran in the 70s, Cuba in the 50s, Arab spring in the current era).
> 
> So while your 401(k) may have taken a hit, to be frank, you've already contributed to society and will soon become a net debit....you're spent! The youth are wasting their most productive years. Hence the "lost generation" tag...its a generation of lost value to society.


Really interesting post and it does highlight some of the problems with "my" generation.

However, I think that there is something missing in the last few pages and that is the cruising "personality". Buying a boat and planning to cruise for a few years at my age (Early 30s) has from my understanding always been an endeavor that required someone on the "other" side of pop-culture's hypnotic blueprint of consumerism and work ethic.

Doing so in this era has been called even by my closest friends as "reckless". "You're gonna do what!? In this economy?"

Society works very hard to tell me that at my age, I should be working on my masters, working for a big firm, buying a condo close to the city, taking my kids to yoga classes... How many people that do follow that cookie cutter path end up cruising the south pacific with their fiance?

I dropped out of college in 2000 to work for a big ad firm in downtown chicago, then opened my own business at 26. I wasnt nearly as successful as I could have been had I kept climbing the corporate ladder, but the desire for freedom was something that from an early age prevented me from ever pursuing what everyone else was "supposed" to do. Every cruiser I have met has seem to have had that kind of outlook on life.

At present, there are a LOT of people my age and even younger that are starting to accept that the career path of their parents is not only impossible to follow, some are clever enough to figure out that this is exactly the time to do amazing things that previously would be considered "reckless". Now its a case of money it seems and not walking upstream in the river of career building.

While I prepare to embark on my adventure I catch glances of highschool buddies on Facebook pursuing their next degree, struggling to keep a house in the burbs afloat, married young with kids and honestly look quite unhappy. To each his own etc, but in my mind the few of us that were mocked 10 years ago for not becoming partner at some law firm are the ones that are eager to send post cards from the Azores today.

Those of us in our mid 20s to early 30s that are using excel to plan refits rather than house refinances, made that decision a loooong time ago.

Does anyone else think its a personality thing and not an economic issue?


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## chall03

chrisncate said:


> It's never a good idea to generalize one person of course, but when judged as a generation overall, Y's/millennials really seem to very often be oversized, oddly shaped, terrible at human interaction/social graces and are quite shut in and glued to a screen or device (I attribute the odd shapes to what we feed kids these days, but that's clearly another topic..).
> 
> Huh, now that I think about it - I don't trust anyone under 30...


In all this wonderful generalising let's stop and consider who started this thread, who asked the original question.....

Youmeandthed - A couple in there 20's currently cruising in Panama. 
Maybe they are the exception that proves the rule? But come on the Gen Y's aren't all doomed, let's give these guys credit where it is due.


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## youmeandthed

I would say we all have the right to fear a bit that our society does not produce members who have leadership qualities. This is obvious these days, and might be the most frightening issue with where the world has gone.

I agree that we had to face criticism from our family and friends. Now that we are doing it, I think they are jealous and intimidated by it. Many friends can't even take off a couple weeks of their life to come cruise the San Blas. I don't smell that bad, I shower.

It is nice to see that there are others trying to break the mould. 

We have friends in every stage of their twenties, some in more affordable areas are getting married, some are still in university, and some are somewhere trying to compete against millions of others to be the next big success. One main theme resonates, they have little assets and live hand to mouth (monthly payments).

Jennie just went back to Vancouver, and she is spending more in gas to get around than I am in moorage and cost of living. Does she need to drive around, not really; but people won't go to visit here they expect her to visit them. Also everyone seems to be running around like chickens with their heads cut off, throwing down money to buy over priced items. 

Another issue to consider might be that Gen Y feels that they need to be validated or else they get low self esteem. I see this a lot, and when cruising you don't get a lot of validation. (but thanks Chall03)  . We grew up in a world of constant validation, and have moved into a world of micromanagement. I honestly think the fear of doing something "unprescribed", and therefor unrewarded might be the issue.

I watched the movie "The Aristocrats" and to me it had a very good point. All the comedians loved this joke because it was a process, not a result. It was not a funny joke, and had a horrible punchline. However, they loved saying it because it allowed them to push the barrier and create their own experience with the body, the process. I think Gen Y is too focused on the punchline, and have never known that the journey holds all the value.


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## smackdaddy

youmeandthed said:


> I watched the movie "The Aristocrats" and to me it had a very good point. All the comedians loved this joke because it was a process, not a result. It was not a funny joke, and had a horrible punchline. However, they loved saying it because it allowed them to push the barrier and create their own experience with the body, the process. I think Gen Y is too focused on the punchline, and have never known that the journey holds all the value.


Very well said.


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## chrisncate

chall03 said:


> In all this wonderful generalising let's stop and consider who started this thread, who asked the original question.....
> 
> Youmeandthed - A couple in there 20's currently cruising in Panama.
> Maybe they are the exception that proves the rule? But come on the Gen Y's aren't all doomed, let's give these guys credit where it is due.


Again, some exceptions here and there of course exist, but overall? I stand by my opinion on the the Y's when viewed as a generation.

Irritating little muffin tops, meh...:laugher


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## Jeff_H

To those of you who probably have noticed that your overly acerbic posts have disappeared from this thread, (and I am sure you all know who you are), cut it out.


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## chrisncate

Jeff_H said:


> To those of you who probably have noticed that your overly acerbic posts have disappeared from this thread, (and I am sure you all know who you are), cut it out.


 Boomers, what are you gonna do, right?


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## smackdaddy

chall03 said:


> In all this wonderful generalising let's stop and consider who started this thread, who asked the original question.....
> 
> Youmeandthed - A couple in there 20's currently cruising in Panama.
> Maybe they are the exception that proves the rule? But come on the Gen Y's aren't all doomed, let's give these guys credit where it is due.


+ freakin' 1. Take all the PRWG pontificating back to The Hole. That stuff is ridiculous.

If more people understood one simple thing (apart from the adventure maxim) a lot more of them would be sailing. And that's this...

It's not that big a deal. If, as a newb on a sailing forum, you learn anything - _learn that_.

You can easily find an old, but perfectly "sailable" boat under 30' for between $1K and $5K. It will need love, but it will sail. With that boat you can have a freakin' blast exploring your bay, coastal hopping, or whatever. Here's over 160 of them:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...uick&is=false&No=0&Ns=PBoat_sortByPriceDesc|1

And here's a specific example of a Catalina 25 for $1950. Sleeps 4-5, looks like it's floating, looks like it has a pretty good outboard, has roller furling, etc.










View Boat Photos - YachtWorld.com

If it is floating, has no serious structural or hull damage, the outboard works well, and the sails are at all usable - this is a freakin' steal. Regardless of how crapped out the interior might be. You could easily make way more than the asking price just parting this boat out. See? You don't even have to "start out with a small dinghy to learn to sail correctly". You can have a small cruising boat like this that you can anchor and spend the night on with a few friends. Then you can even race it if/when you want. How cool is that?

The key is to find a boat that is ready to sail - now. Don't blow all your time and money "fixing it up". That's not nearly as fun as sailing it. Trust me.

Remember, it doesn't have to be perfect, it just needs to be able to safely and reliably get you away from the dock, sail around, and get you back. And as long as you are conservative about when, where and how you sail as you learn - you'll be fine. Just be safety conscious.

And here's the other thing: When you're thinking about picking up sailing for the first time - it DOES look and sound complicated as hell. And, yes, there is A LOT to know.

BUT, it's not that hard. Seriously. You DON'T have to have a stack of certifications to go sailing and have fun.

So, just find a cheap boat that fits your budget (after researching the main things to look out for), buy it, and get someone who knows what they're doing to go out with you a few times and show you the ropes. It's really pretty easy.

I know because this is exactly what I did. I'm still alive, I haven't killed anyone, my boat is still afloat, I haven't had to call in the CG, and I haven't had a single collision or serious grounding.

So just do it already - while these other knuckleheads keep psychoanalyzing society.


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## Jeff_H

chrisncate said:


> Boomers, what are you gonna do, right?


To quote Marx, " I resemble that comment"


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## smackdaddy

By the way - here's a great example of what the "youth of today" you old farts are being critical of can pull off with a junked out Hunter, some tools, lots of ingenuity, and a rudder made from a 2X12.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...elated/87530-shoestring-hunter-adventure.html

or condensed here...

*Shoestring Hunter Adventure*


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## tommays

It could be because we raised are children NOT to be slackers and perhaps because the schools they went to pop out a LOT of like minded peers i am just used to running into highly motivated young ones


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## peterchech

NOTHING IN LIFE IS "REAL SIMPLE"

This is a typical display of a strong opinion without presenting any objective empirical evidence supporting those beliefs.

*Judgmental and self rightous anecdotes *involving some other people's kids who you kind of know isn't a great basis for such strong opinions. Yet that seems to be the basis of most posts made here about those "lazy" gen Y'ers.

Reminds me alot of Fox news, a channel very popular in some of the older age groups... fair and balanced ...



bljones said:


> It's real simple. People without a driver's license don't buy cars. people living at home don't buy homes. no cars and no homes means no furniture, no appliances, no trailers, etc...
> Therefore the impact of their unemployment on the economy overall is negligible.
> 
> Your own example shows that 35-44 is STILL impacted. Until Gen X feels comfortable with sepnding money, the economy si gonna be stadning still, and *it is hard for gen X to feel comfortable when their coddled helicoptered, no summer-job-having non-driving, liberal arts grad kids are still living at home.*
> 
> SWMBO and I have two kids, a 19 year old son and a 17 year old daughter. *For almost half a decade they have been the only members of their peer group who have had to have summer jobs, part time jobs or volunteer jobs. *That fact simultaneously stuns me, and makes me very proud of them.
> Yes, they hate me. I am okay with that.


----------



## puddinlegs

Jeff_H said:


> To those of you who probably have noticed that your overly acerbic posts have disappeared from this thread, (and I am sure you all know who you are), cut it out.


Jeff, seriously, you think it's ok for someone in our age group (over 40) to denigrate the younger generation without any empirical evidence while I stated clearly that my experience was based only on local observation? Or was it the fact that I mentioned SN posters' large degree of ongoing geographic and experiential myopia? If it's that latter, then please, I'd be honored to be permanently banned from Sailnet or if you prefer, just pull a 'chef' and bow out.

I've worked with and taught a lot of young people over the years in many capacities. In the end, my experiences have overwhelmingly been positive. I'll take my own experience over those who clearly have spent little or no time with generations other than their own. Acerbic? Sometimes. BS is BS and should be called such.


----------



## chall03

smackdaddy said:


> By the way - here's a great example of what the "youth of today" you old farts are being critical of can pull off with a junked out Hunter, some tools, lots of ingenuity, and a rudder made from a 2X12.
> 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...elated/87530-shoestring-hunter-adventure.html
> 
> or condensed here...
> 
> *Shoestring Hunter Adventure*


Absolutely!!

And here is a link to two Gen Y Aussie's sailing A wooden 29ft boat from Halifax, Canada to Sydney. Australia via the Northwest Passage, Siberia, Micronesia and PNG. Not much time for Guitar Hero I would say.

Teleport Expeditions - Chris Bray & Jess Taunton

I could send you links to at least another half a dozen Gen Y's doing something cool in boats.

Sure these anecdotes don't speak to an entire generation, yes we are all probably doomed to eat ourselves silly while watching MTV while the world cripples around us, but hey if the grumpy old men get to pull out the "my neighbours friend knows a no hoper kid who still lives with his mum" crap then some Gen Y BFS wouldn't hurt this thread either


----------



## bljones

smackdaddy said:


> + freakin' 1. Take all the PRWG pontificating back to The Hole. That stuff is ridiculous.
> 
> If more people understood one simple thing (apart from the adventure maxim) a lot more of them would be sailing. And that's this...
> 
> It's not that big a deal. If, as a newb on a sailing forum, you learn anything - _learn that_.
> 
> You can easily find an old, but perfectly "sailable" boat under 30' for between $1K and $5K. It will need love, but it will sail. With that boat you can have a freakin' blast exploring your bay, coastal hopping, or whatever. Here's over 160 of them:
> 
> (Sail) Boats For Sale
> 
> And here's a specific example of a Catalina 25 for $1950. Sleeps 4-5, looks like it's floating, looks like it has a pretty good outboard, has roller furling, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View Boat Photos - YachtWorld.com
> 
> If it is floating, has no serious structural or hull damage, the outboard works well, and the sails are at all usable - this is a freakin' steal. Regardless of how crapped out the interior might be. You could easily make way more than the asking price just parting this boat out. See? You don't even have to "start out with a small dinghy to learn to sail correctly". You can have a small cruising boat like this that you can anchor and spend the night on with a few friends. Then you can even race it if/when you want. How cool is that?
> 
> The key is to find a boat that is ready to sail - now. Don't blow all your time and money "fixing it up". That's not nearly as fun as sailing it. Trust me.
> 
> Remember, it doesn't have to be perfect, it just needs to be able to safely and reliably get you away from the dock, sail around, and get you back. And as long as you are conservative about when, where and how you sail as you learn - you'll be fine. Just be safety conscious.
> 
> And here's the other thing: When you're thinking about picking up sailing for the first time - it DOES look and sound complicated as hell. And, yes, there is A LOT to know.
> 
> BUT, it's not that hard. Seriously. You DON'T have to have a stack of certifications to go sailing and have fun.
> 
> So, just find a cheap boat that fits your budget (after researching the main things to look out for), buy it, and get someone who knows what they're doing to go out with you a few times and show you the ropes. It's really pretty easy.
> 
> I know because this is exactly what I did. I'm still alive, I haven't killed anyone, my boat is still afloat, I haven't had to call in the CG, and I haven't had a single collision or serious grounding.
> 
> So just do it already - while these other knuckleheads keep psychoanalyzing society.


and all of this would be relevant except that to paraphrase the question posed in the thread topic wasn't "how?" but "how come?"
Totally different head. Totally.
Wanna see more Gen Y sailing? invite them sailing. hell, invite eveyrone sailing that you know- 
guests= booze.win-freakin'-win.


----------



## peterchech

chall03 said:


> And here is a link to two Gen Y Aussie's sailing A wooden 29ft boat from Halifax, Canada to Sydney. Australia via the Northwest Passage, Siberia, Micronesia and PNG. Not much time for Guitar Hero I would say.
> 
> Teleport Expeditions - Chris Bray & Jess Taunton


Wow, most people out building junk rigs are hardly in gen Y lol good on them!!! Seems to be a good argument for using them in the northern/polar climes (think Mingming and Jester as well) where you can seal up your cork of a boat and control everything easily from the cabin.


----------



## smurphny

Geeeez Chris, pre-internet? I remember pre color TV!


----------



## Jeff_H

What does it mean that I remember pre-TV, (perhaps before they even invented dirt)......


----------



## Jgbrown

What's the point in getting a license if you can't afford the car/insurance/gas/parking/license renewals to go with? 
It's a bit different than your generation. 
You could buy a huge TV, video game console, a ton of games, and a nice laptop for just what I paid for liability only insurance the last year I had a car here.

Going "out" costs money, other than going for a walk, but what's the fun in walking around suburbia? About as interesting as watching paint dry. 
Sit in a park and you are either:
a)Loitering and going to get told to move along.
b)harassed ceaselessly for spare change/smokes etc.

Assuming you can find a park to sit in that is, and a way to get there.

Complaining about the next generation won't ever go out of style I suspect, but that's how it goes.

The comparison to Japan from a previous post is quite accurate I think. I see similar sentiments among many people my age. They know the game is rigged, and they don't really want to spend the time playing it.



chrisncate said:


> A person can't deny the obvious differences between the generations that remember the pre internet days, and the ones that do not. I believe that viewing this "new world" we now live in via technology in the same old way: "oh, every generation thinks they know more than the younger ones coming up" is just not accurate anymore. Technology is changing the way people are, and where I live (and probably you as well) it's undeniable that kids don't go outside anywhere near like they did when we were young. As a whole, this is not an "outside" generation at all, even if there are exceptions here and there.
> 
> Cate has a very large family, and she has nieces, nephews and cousins in the late teen/twenty something set. I am always stunned when I ask them "got your license yet?" only to get the inevitable "no", with no explanation whatsoever as they check their device (Facebook I assume)... My neighbor in fact, right next door has a 20 year old daughter and 18 year old son. Neither ever leave the house that I have observed in any kind of social way (other than to go on their back deck to smoke), and neither drive cars. At that age being inside and home all the time is something I cannot even _begin_ to relate too, it's so weird.
> 
> Kids today play the "guitar hero" _game_ and think that is talent and actually playing guitar. Kids from my era actually started _bands_ with musical instruments, you know what I mean? It just isn't the same anymore. Who knows, maybe soon they'll make some new game that has a winch and a wheel as the controllers, and you can sail/cruise "virtually"... (no thanks, I'm good... have at it though)..
> 
> It's never a good idea to generalize one person of course, but when judged as a generation overall, Y's/millennials really seem to very often be oversized, oddly shaped, terrible at human interaction/social graces and are quite shut in and glued to a screen or device (I attribute the odd shapes to what we feed kids these days, but that's clearly another topic..).
> 
> Huh, now that I think about it - I don't trust anyone under 30...


----------



## chrisncate

smurphny said:


> Geeeez Chris, pre-internet? I remember pre color TV!


What the heck is a "television" exactly? Is it some kind of primitive video phone that once had a black and white screen?


----------



## chrisncate

Jgbrown said:


> What's the point in getting a license if you can't afford the car/insurance/gas/parking/license renewals to go with?


That's the problem right there. WITHOUT me sounding like a conservative, if you want a DL you get yourself a DL. You have internet service, clearly you can afford the one time DL fee.



> It's a bit different than your generation.


Yes, it is - as it was for my generation at your age (I'm a Gen X). The only real difference? Your generation was coddled like soft little eggs and always given a 1st place trophy just for showing up, whereas my generation was constantly getting the crap kicked out of it.



> You could buy a huge TV, video game console, a ton of games, and a nice laptop for just what I paid for liability only insurance the last year I had a car here.


Insurance is expensive. So is Comcast internet. What means more to you? Driving and being mobile so you can further yourself, or sitting home typing on your $160 per month bundled cable package bitching about not having enough money to drive... ?



> Going "out" costs money, other than going for a walk, but what's the fun in walking around suburbia? About as interesting as watching paint dry.
> Sit in a park and you are either:
> a)Loitering and going to get told to move along.
> b)harassed ceaselessly for spare change/smokes etc.


Well, in my day here I didn't walk as I had a job at 15, and the money to get my DL the very day I turned 16 (literally), as I had been checking off the days for my entire 15th year on earth till I was 16.

A- Loitering. Assert your civil rights the next time you are harangued, I would. If you aren't committing crimes or hanging on private property, you can tell anyone to take a hike.

B- Vagrants hassling you. A quick "F**k off with a hard look right in the eye of the offender usually does the trick. If not, a quick pop in the chops works well also. It's called having a pair..



> Assuming you can find a park to sit in that is, and a way to get there.


You said that already.



> Complaining about the next generation won't ever go out of style I suspect, but that's how it goes.
> 
> The comparison to Japan from a previous post is quite accurate I think. I see similar sentiments among many people my age. They know the game is rigged, and they don't really want to spend the time playing it.


Complaining about prior gens has always been around, this new technological era has not. That's a variable you cannot predict by past history and a game changer.


----------



## night0wl

chrisncate - you're being overdramatic. You're gen-x and did *NOT* have it hard. For gods sake, college was cheap, there were surpluses at the federal level, the dot com explosion made many of you millionaires, the housing boom made even more you wealthy...so I'm not buying it.

These millenials started with 9/11, went to college in an era where tuition is rising at 15-20% annually, graduated in an era where there are *NO* jobs even for college graduates. Not to mention that *THEY* have fought and died in 2 major foreign wars. What was your generations major war? Desert Storm? Kosovo? 

Please...those were video games compared to what the Millenials have experienced in Iraq & Afghanistan.

Gen-X is the generation that had almost as easy as the Baby Boomers...


----------



## Jgbrown

chrisncate said:


> That's the problem right there. WITHOUT me sounding like a conservative, if you want a DL you get yourself a DL. You have internet service, clearly you can afford the one time DL fee.


I would have got my license at 16 too... Except my parents wouldn't sign for it so I had to wait until I was 18 to sign for it myself, at which point I'd been working for several years. Then when I did buy a vehicle to commute to my job with(12 hour rotating shift in a factory), I was invited to leave, or get rid of the vehicle. So I slept in my Jeep until I scraped up enough to rent a room.

160$ a month is about 4x what I pay , since I only have the internet and a cell, just as I've always had since I was invited to move out, but you could get the expensive package if you wanted I suppose.

Getting licensed cost me closer to 500$, but it's less to renew.
Liability only insurance runs about 1600$ a year for my '86 diesel golf, more if I want comprehensive. The last year I had it I only got broken into once, and the damage cost under a grand to fix.
Other parts(brakes, muffler, clutch etc) cost me about a grand that year too.
Parking near my work runs about 250$/mo for the cheapest area, and there are no permit free street parking spots.

550$/mo not including fuel... I'll pass on that for now thanks.

I'd rather spend than on my Alberg 30. 6 months of car operating costs would cost me more than the 60 hour week Brian(Mitiempo) and I put in re-wiring my Alberg.

I rode my motorbike to my SECOND job last week. After my 7 hour shift in the boatyard(retrofitting a holding tank into a Catalina 27) on a Saturday. 
I parked in the motorbike parking area, for 8 hours to work that job(where I am now as well). There is a generally agreed upon space for motorcycles to park in, 20-30 bikes there every day. The parking people prefer it, since it frees up car spaces. 
Well some new parking guy ticketed it, I've parked there 6 months no issue and even asked parking guys about it just to be damn sure I never had problems. 2 minutes later(at 11pm at night) it was towed away.

Faster than I can get a cop when my door has been split down the middle and my house robbed(they came next day). Faster than I can get an ambulance to the boatyard for an injured worker who is in serious pain(one hour).
200$ and another couple hours extra work later I made it home, back at the boatyard 6 hours later to help launch a boat.

What exactly about that sounds fun?
The bike is a 79 CX500 and I pay 1550$/yr for liability but parking is free, so long as you aren't getting towed.

I haven't had a day off in a long time, my days off from my main job I put in a 9 or 10 hour day in the boatyard, and a bit of time working on my boat if I can squeeze it in at the end.



> Yes, it is - as it was for my generation at your age (I'm a Gen X). The only real difference? Your generation was coddled like soft little eggs and always given a 1st place trophy just for showing up, whereas my generation was constantly getting the crap kicked out of it.


:laugher
Yup. That's definitely how I grew up. All those times I was going hungry to make sure I paid my rent, or pay for the parts to rebuild that Jeep I had bought to make it the 4x4 I could travel around the world in. Or when I sold the vehicle I'd spent a year rebuilding myself piece by piece to have enough money to make a start at going back to university so my girlfriend and I would have enough to live on while we studied and worked to pay our tuition.

Good thing I was so coddled, through all the factories and jobsites I worked in. That must've been why they lied to us about some of the things we worked with, some of which left the veins in my arms black for 6 months after I wised up and quit one factory. The coddling sure helped with the ongoing issues I have with my lungs and back from some of them too... 
I never got screwed over by putting duty and work first and letting go of the things I wanted to be doing instead.





> Insurance is expensive. So is Comcast internet. What means more to you? Driving and being mobile so you can further yourself, or sitting home typing on your $160 per month bundled cable package bitching about not having enough money to drive... ?


I rode my CX500 to Panama last year. 8 months on the road, one of them in California rebuilding her to make the rest of the trip.

Not sure how driving your car town around furthers anything. I let go of having a car when I grew up enough to realize I didn't need the toys and could get by with less.



> Well, in my day here I didn't walk as I had a job at 15, and the money to get my DL the very day I turned 16 (literally), as I had been checking off the days for my entire 15th year on earth till I was 16.


I did the same thing, I had a little calendar above my lathe, at the woodturning shop I spent my weekends in working alone.
I was so excited to start driving to work even then. Sure was disappointed when I found out my parents had to sign off for me to get it.



> A- Loitering. Assert your civil rights the next time you are harangued, I would. If you aren't committing crimes or hanging on private property, you can tell anyone to take a hike.
> 
> B- Vagrants hassling you. A quick "F**k off with a hard look right in the eye of the offender usually does the trick. If not, a quick pop in the chops works well also. It's called having a pair..


B: Only so many times you can do that in an hour before you get tired of it.



> You said that already.


Sorry, I'm halfway through a shift at my second job of the day(already spent the morning cutting and installing new plexi windows in a Catalina 27, the one I did a holding tank in last week).
Guess I'm a bit tired, since I didn't get home from the boatyard until 11pm last night, after 12 hours there, and 2 hours getting home, including enough panhandlers without needing a park. Including one begging right on the bus, and a drunk hassling us. I was back there again at 9am this morning.
On my lunch break now, so I'm making sure to not double up what I say for you. 
Better?

I choose to live without a car now, I enjoy the Alberg 30 I'm slowly fixing up more than a car. Maybe you know a bit about that feeling, simplicity over complication?



> Complaining about prior gens has always been around, this new technological era has not. That's a variable you cannot predict by past history and a game changer.


They said that about your generation too(genX). So yes, it applies.

Now I've wasted my lunch break on this crap, when I should know better. I'm off to finish up my receipts and hours for the boatyard, and do a few more useful things before I get back to work.

I'd like to think that this post was just a miss-step on your part, and a lack of understanding. It didn't come across that way, and as I have worked hard and struggled for everything I've got, and to provide for others in my life it didn't sit well with me.


----------



## smurphny

chrisncate said:


> What the heck is a "television" exactly? Is it some kind of primitive video phone that once had a black and white screen?


Yes, it was a vacuum tube device connected to an antenna. Antennas were atop every house. The fancy ones had ROTATORS whoa. They received FREE, yes, free broadcasts of The Honeymooners, Kookla Fran and Ollie, Howdy Doody, Roy Rogers, and The Little Rascals. What a primitive concept.


----------



## chrisncate

Jgbrown said:


> I would have got my license at 16 too... Except my parents wouldn't sign for it so I had to wait until I was 18 to sign for it myself, at which point I'd been working for several years. Then when I did buy a vehicle to commute to my job with(12 hour rotating shift in a factory), I was invited to leave, or get rid of the vehicle. So I slept in my Jeep until I scraped up enough to rent a room.
> 
> 160$ a month is about 4x what I pay , since I only have the internet and a cell, just as I've always had since I was invited to move out, but you could get the expensive package if you wanted I suppose.
> 
> Getting licensed cost me closer to 500$, but it's less to renew.
> Liability only insurance runs about 1600$ a year for my '86 diesel golf, more if I want comprehensive. The last year I had it I only got broken into once, and the damage cost under a grand to fix.
> Other parts(brakes, muffler, clutch etc) cost me about a grand that year too.
> Parking near my work runs about 250$/mo for the cheapest area, and there are no permit free street parking spots.
> 
> 550$/mo not including fuel... I'll pass on that for now thanks.
> 
> I'd rather spend than on my Alberg 30. 6 months of car operating costs would cost me more than the 60 hour week Brian(Mitiempo) and I put in re-wiring my Alberg.
> 
> I rode my motorbike to my SECOND job last week. After my 7 hour shift in the boatyard(retrofitting a holding tank into a Catalina 27) on a Saturday.
> I parked in the motorbike parking area, for 8 hours to work that job(where I am now as well). There is a generally agreed upon space for motorcycles to park in, 20-30 bikes there every day. The parking people prefer it, since it frees up car spaces.
> Well some new parking guy ticketed it, I've parked there 6 months no issue and even asked parking guys about it just to be damn sure I never had problems. 2 minutes later(at 11pm at night) it was towed away.
> 
> Faster than I can get a cop when my door has been split down the middle and my house robbed(they came next day). Faster than I can get an ambulance to the boatyard for an injured worker who is in serious pain(one hour).
> 200$ and another couple hours extra work later I made it home, back at the boatyard 6 hours later to help launch a boat.
> 
> What exactly about that sounds fun?
> The bike is a 79 CX500 and I pay 1550$/yr for liability but parking is free, so long as you aren't getting towed.
> 
> I haven't had a day off in a long time, my days off from my main job I put in a 9 or 10 hour day in the boatyard, and a bit of time working on my boat if I can squeeze it in at the end.
> 
> :laugher
> Yup. That's definitely how I grew up. All those times I was going hungry to make sure I paid my rent, or pay for the parts to rebuild that Jeep I had bought to make it the 4x4 I could travel around the world in. Or when I sold the vehicle I'd spent a year rebuilding myself piece by piece to have enough money to make a start at going back to university so my girlfriend and I would have enough to live on while we studied and worked to pay our tuition.
> 
> Good thing I was so coddled, through all the factories and jobsites I worked in. That must've been why they lied to us about some of the things we worked with, some of which left the veins in my arms black for 6 months after I wised up and quit one factory. The coddling sure helped with the ongoing issues I have with my lungs and back from some of them too...
> I never got screwed over by putting duty and work first and letting go of the things I wanted to be doing instead.
> 
> 
> 
> I rode my CX500 to Panama last year. 8 months on the road, one of them in California rebuilding her to make the rest of the trip.
> 
> Not sure how driving your car town around furthers anything. I let go of having a car when I grew up enough to realize I didn't need the toys and could get by with less.
> 
> I did the same thing, I had a little calendar above my lathe, at the woodturning shop I spent my weekends in working alone.
> I was so excited to start driving to work even then. Sure was disappointed when I found out my parents had to sign off for me to get it.
> 
> B: Only so many times you can do that in an hour before you get tired of it.
> 
> Sorry, I'm halfway through a shift at my second job of the day(already spent the morning cutting and installing new plexi windows in a Catalina 27, the one I did a holding tank in last week).
> Guess I'm a bit tired, since I didn't get home from the boatyard until 11pm last night, after 12 hours there, and 2 hours getting home, including enough panhandlers without needing a park. Including one begging right on the bus, and a drunk hassling us. I was back there again at 9am this morning.
> On my lunch break now, so I'm making sure to not double up what I say for you.
> Better?
> 
> I choose to live without a car now, I enjoy the Alberg 30 I'm slowly fixing up more than a car. Maybe you know a bit about that feeling, simplicity over complication?
> 
> They said that about your generation too(genX). So yes, it applies.
> 
> Now I've wasted my lunch break on this crap, when I should know better. I'm off to finish up my receipts and hours for the boatyard, and do a few more useful things before I get back to work.
> 
> I'd like to think that this post was just a miss-step on your part, and a lack of understanding. It didn't come across that way, and as I have worked hard and struggled for everything I've got, and to provide for others in my life it didn't sit well with me.


Alberg 30? Ok, you're alright.


----------



## chrisncate

smurphny said:


> Yes, it was a vacuum tube device connected to an antenna. Antennas were atop every house. The fancy ones had ROTATORS whoa. They received FREE, yes, free broadcasts of The Honeymooners, Kookla Fran and Ollie, Howdy Doody, Roy Rogers, and The Little Rascals. What a primitive concept.


I think that's an awesome concept actually. I am no fan of the "now", and I'd love to have been part of the two prior generations to mine. You guys got the best years imo


----------



## chrisncate

night0wl said:


> chrisncate - you're being overdramatic. You're gen-x and did *NOT* have it hard. For gods sake, college was cheap, there were surpluses at the federal level, the dot com explosion made many of you millionaires, the housing boom made even more you wealthy...so I'm not buying it.
> 
> These millenials started with 9/11, went to college in an era where tuition is rising at 15-20% annually, graduated in an era where there are *NO* jobs even for college graduates. Not to mention that *THEY* have fought and died in 2 major foreign wars. What was your generations major war? Desert Storm? Kosovo?
> 
> Please...those were video games compared to what the Millenials have experienced in Iraq & Afghanistan.
> 
> Gen-X is the generation that had almost as easy as the Baby Boomers...


Should we have had a war? I'm glad we didn't, in that area I do feel very lucky.

And reading what you wrote, I think you Boomers might want to keep an eye out behind you in the future. When the Millenials finally _do_ figure en masse _which_ generation actually brought them tuition rising at 15-20% annually, graduating in an era where there are *NO* jobs even for college graduates, and that *THEY* have fought and died in 2 major foreign wars... well, _you_ guys trained em, so _you_ deal with em.. 

I need to be clear on something else as well - I am very happy to have grown up when I did. I miss those days all the time and I feel lucky to have been part of that era.


----------



## Jgbrown

chrisncate said:


> I think that's an awesome concept actually. I am no fan of the "now", and I'd love to have been part of the two prior generations to mine. You guys got the best years imo


A30's the universal language of getting along

XKCD summed it up well. Born after the world was explored, and before space starts to be explored.

Sometimes I agree with it, but often I'm glad to live now, though I'd like to live earlier or farther in the future when I run into frustrations. 
The technology today IS a double edge sword, but it can be used to your advantage.

In an era where I can have a light that is unlikely to burn out in my lifetime that charges off a solar panel the size of a paperback book, and a library bigger than most cities have, that's the size of a 6 pack of beer, and an e-reader that lasts a month on a charge.

Google maps on a phone is the kind of technology armies would have killed for only a couple generations ago.
It's possible to go farther and lighter than ever before, but requires a different mindset, and a mix of the technology of today(LEDs, ebook readers, low power robust computing), with the technology of the past(like your A30 setup).

I've laid out routes for the next day's ride, on a map sketched by a man who lived without any power, on my e-book by the light of an old lantern in a building that was ruins before Canada became a country.

We still live in interesting times, frustrating as they may be sometimes.


----------



## Capt.aaron

Character is built through adversity, and we've all had our share. I am notorious for throwing myself into perilous situations just to see how I will manage to get myself out of them. Adventurous spirit. We are a chosen few, those of us who venture out to sea on small boats. We will never be the majority. A very small group of each generation will do it in their 20's, a little more in the 30's and so on. I was sailing all over the place by myself in my early 20's, and ya'll might of read my blog or seen me on-line if they had that 20 years ago. Either way and regardless, I'm glad we are out there doing it to what ever capacity we are capable of and hope we inspire future generations to do the same.


----------



## bljones

Jgbrown said:


> I would have got my license at 16 too... I have worked hard and struggled for everything I've got, and to provide for others in my life it didn't sit well with me.


jg, you are the exception that proves the rule, and you realize that as well when you take a look at your peer group.
You have absolutely nothing to defend or justify- we here know who you are.
You walk the walk.
Hell, he still thinks i am an assh ole because i jerked his chain a few months back but i gotta give props to peterchech as well- another young dude who is bucking the trend and not offering any "yeah, but"s.


----------



## chrisncate

Jgbrown said:


> A30's the universal language of getting along


Yup 



> XKCD summed it up well. Born after the world was explored, and before space starts to be explored.
> 
> Sometimes I agree with it, but often I'm glad to live now, though I'd like to live earlier or farther in the future when I run into frustrations.
> The technology today IS a double edge sword, but it can be used to your advantage.
> 
> In an era where I can have a light that is unlikely to burn out in my lifetime that charges off a solar panel the size of a paperback book, and a library bigger than most cities have, that's the size of a 6 pack of beer, and an e-reader that lasts a month on a charge.
> 
> Google maps on a phone is the kind of technology armies would have killed for only a couple generations ago.
> It's possible to go farther and lighter than ever before, but requires a different mindset, and a mix of the technology of today(LEDs, ebook readers, low power robust computing), with the technology of the past(like your A30 setup).
> 
> I've laid out routes for the next day's ride, on a map sketched by a man who lived without any power, on my e-book by the light of an old lantern in a building that was ruins before Canada became a country.
> 
> We still live in interesting times, frustrating as they may be sometimes.


Well, there is a saying: "may you live in interesting times", it's a chinese curse..

I am an old fart at heart at 39 - I don't want any of this crap really, I like tech from about 1987 backwards. I like cassette tapes (I could tape anything I wanted without worrying about being busted for piracy, the only drawback was the DJ's voice over the beginning of the song. Well, that and rewinding and fast forwarding...), our various cordless house phones were the indestructible beige ones with the pull out antenna (you bang out 7 digits in 2 seconds flat on one of those things and if you weren't home you didn't get calls cause the phone was at home), mid size cars were as big as todays sub compacts and hardly any SUV's existed (family truckster wagons were available though, woodgrain and all), computers were stupid and totally useless on the consumer level, and hardly anybody had one (we had a Commodore 64 though), to get anywhere you had to read a map, books were made of paper, lights were a nice warm color, batteries lasted a day maybe... etc etc...

I use the tech stuff of today cause what else am I supposed to do - it's our modern culture. I often hope for a surprise EMP from space, but fat chance on that... 

EDIT: Oh yea, and another thing - A camera didn't take 12 seconds to take a picture back then with all the flashing and clicking at a snails pace as you miss your shot, it just went click/flash and you could time it almost exactly if you were good..


----------



## Capt.aaron

chrisncate said:


> Yup
> 
> Well, there is a saying: "may you live in interesting times", it's a chinese curse..
> 
> I am an old fart at heart at 39 - I don't want any of this crap really, I like tech from about 1987 backwards. I like cassette tapes (I could tape anything I wanted without worrying about being busted for piracy, the only drawback was the DJ's voice over the beginning of the song. Well, that and rewinding and fast forwarding...), our various cordless house phones were the indestructible beige ones with the pull out antenna (you bang out 7 digits in 2 seconds flat on one of those things and if you weren't home you didn't get calls cause the phone was at home), mid size cars were as big as todays sub compacts and hardly any SUV's existed (family truckster wagons were available though, woodgrain and all), computers were stupid and totally useless on the consumer level, and hardly anybody had one (we had a Commodore 64 though), to get anywhere you had to read a map, books were made of paper, lights were a nice warm color, batteries lasted a day maybe... etc etc...
> 
> I use the tech stuff of today cause what else am I supposed to do - it's our modern culture. I often hope for a surprise EMP from space, but fat chance on that...
> 
> EDIT: Oh yea, and another thing - A camera didn't take 12 seconds to take a picture back then with all the flashing and clicking at a snails pace as you miss your shot, it just went click/flash and you could time it almost exactly if you were good..


Trick is to know how to get along with out that sh!t, and use it cuz you can.


----------



## Jgbrown

bljones said:


> jg, you are the exception that proves the rule, and you realize that as well when you take a look at your peer group.
> You have absolutely nothing to defend or justify- we here know who you are.
> You walk the walk.
> Hell, he still thinks i am an assh ole because i jerked his chain a few months back but i gotta give props to peterchech as well- another young dude who is bucking the trend and not offering any "yeah, but"s.


The more it changes. The more it stays the same. There are majority and minority in every age group, same as there always has been. I'm nothing special, I'm lazy, I follow what other people do, instead of truly striking out on my own and I screw up with astonishing regularity, there are some crazy motivated and awesome people in my age group though. 
I think some of the movements(not the occupy or other whinging nonsense) will make a big change. Not through "raising awareness" but through making life around them a little better, or creating something unique. There's a group who started a non profit workshop around here for example. Access for people like me to the kinds of tools we could never afford on our own. 
Everything from industrial sewing machines, to metal and wood and plastic working shops.

I shouldn't have responded the way I did I suppose, we were both being too serious. Though I won't go back and edit it, teach me to go off in a public forum maybe. Just having a cranky day I guess. :laugher

You are a bit sometimes. You yanked my chain a couple times too, but it's all fun in the end, once understanding is reached. I was working on my grand exit post, but I guess I'll save it as a draft for now.


----------



## Jgbrown

chrisncate said:


> Yup
> 
> Well, there is a saying: "may you live in interesting times", it's a chinese curse..
> 
> I am an old fart at heart at 39 - I don't want any of this crap really, I like tech from about 1987 backwards. I like cassette tapes (I could tape anything I wanted without worrying about being busted for piracy, the only drawback was the DJ's voice over the beginning of the song. Well, that and rewinding and fast forwarding...), our various cordless house phones were the indestructible beige ones with the pull out antenna (you bang out 7 digits in 2 seconds flat on one of those things and if you weren't home you didn't get calls cause the phone was at home), mid size cars were as big as todays sub compacts and hardly any SUV's existed (family truckster wagons were available though, woodgrain and all), computers were stupid and totally useless on the consumer level, and hardly anybody had one (we had a Commodore 64 though), to get anywhere you had to read a map, books were made of paper, lights were a nice warm color, batteries lasted a day maybe... etc etc...
> 
> I use the tech stuff of today cause what else am I supposed to do - it's our modern culture. I often hope for a surprise EMP from space, but fat chance on that...
> 
> EDIT: Oh yea, and another thing - A camera didn't take 12 seconds to take a picture back then with all the flashing and clicking at a snails pace as you miss your shot, it just went click/flash and you could time it almost exactly if you were good..


Shrug. I have all my music in a tougher drive than a cassette. If it breaks, I go without until I can swap in a backup drive(30 seconds if I have one handy). No rewinding with a pencil, or magnetic heads getting cranky. 
Mid sized cars were definitely not that small. A sedan today, and a sedan from the 80s are very similar. A geo metro is still the same size too.
I rode to Panama with 2 cheap maps. Worked fine talking to people on the road instead. more fun than that new fangled detailed folding maps.
Warm lights exist, but they use 10% of the power and last 100x longer at least.

That EMP would knock out those old warm light bulbs, and destroy just about any vehicles ignition system, computerized or not. They'd scramble your tapes too.

Bad cameras did, and they jammed, and they had light leaks, and sticky shutters, etc etc. Good Cameras didn't. That hasn't changed either. Good cameras focus and shoot faster than any manual shooter.
Timing still works, you can even shoot that pre-focused instant shoot style if you know your gear. 
For example I assigned a second button on the back to spool up anti-shake, as I'm raising it to my eye, lens is prefocused by hand for the range I'll be hitting, half press to final focus and shoot. Or if it's bright out, f8 and be there still applies.

No way I can shoot that fast, or with those kinds of shutter speeds with film.


----------



## chrisncate

Naa, no worries - I got a thick skin, S/N gave me calluses a long time ago and now I can play for hours with little to no pain.. On a scale of 1-10 on the "offensive to me" post level, your post(s) to me were about a 0.1 ... you're all good 

PM some pics of that A-30 of yours sometime, I'd like to see her. I have some experience in doing a little work here and there on my A-30, let me know if you ever need any insight as you refit her


----------



## chrisncate

Jgbrown said:


> Shrug. I have all my music in a tougher drive than a cassette. If it breaks, I go without until I can swap in a backup drive(30 seconds if I have one handy). No rewinding with a pencil, or magnetic heads getting cranky.
> Mid sized cars were definitely not that small. A sedan today, and a sedan from the 80s are very similar. A geo metro is still the same size too.
> I rode to Panama with 2 cheap maps. Worked fine talking to people on the road instead. more fun than that new fangled detailed folding maps.
> Warm lights exist, but they use 10% of the power and last 100x longer at least.
> 
> That EMP would knock out those old warm light bulbs, and destroy just about any vehicles ignition system, computerized or not. They'd scramble your tapes too.
> 
> Bad cameras did, and they jammed, and they had light leaks, and sticky shutters, etc etc. Good Cameras didn't. That hasn't changed either. Good cameras focus and shoot faster than any manual shooter.
> Timing still works, you can even shoot that pre-focused instant shoot style if you know your gear.
> For example I assigned a second button on the back to spool up anti-shake, as I'm raising it to my eye, lens is prefocused by hand for the range I'll be hitting, half press to final focus and shoot. Or if it's bright out, f8 and be there still applies.
> 
> No way I can shoot that fast, or with those kinds of shutter speeds with film.


Slide an 87 Honda Accord up next to a Toyota Yaris of today, and tell me what you see.. cars are truly very different today.

The rest, well.. I still want to take a flying delorean back to 1985 someday. I'm old fashioned I guess


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## Capt.aaron

The day I truly got in touch with my inner idiot was the day I started being honest with myself. Now, I only lie to myself about really important stuff, Nothing important has presented itself. Old dudes are here to yank our chains, ( that sounded weird).. but they are here to show us how serious things are'nt, and to make us think. Dudes have been setting out to sea longer than we can recall, before we aknowledge it happened. None of us are really breaking ground here, we're just keeping alive an art form that needs to remembered and passed on. JG is carrying the tourch now as I did, and Brent before me, and Robin G before him, and Slocum did to remind us of what we've alway's done... Gone to to Sea.


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## Capt.aaron

In 1988, I drove around a '79 monte carlo, had a mullet. my arm around the Swedish exchange student, listening to REO speedwagon.....cassete that had been eaten, and taped back together with scotch tape. Gas was $1.14 a gal.


----------



## chrisncate

Capt.aaron said:


> The day I truly got in touch with my inner idiot was the day I started being honest with myself. Now, I only lie to myself about really important stuff, Nothing important has presented itself. Old dudes are here to yank our chains, ( that sounded weird).. but they are here to show us how serious things are'nt, and to make us think. Dudes have been setting out to sea longer than we can recall, before we aknowledge it happened. None of us are really breaking ground here, we're just keeping alive an art form that needs to remembered and passed on. JG is carrying the tourch now as I did, and Brent before me, and Robin G before him, and Slocum did to remind us of what we've alway's done... Gone to to Sea.


Yup, well said.

I ain't going to sea anytime soon (the honest with myself thing), but I can refit _you_ a boat to take to sea that'll make others droll and Neptune proud. We all have our place in this sailing thing, everything counts


----------



## Capt.aaron

chrisncate said:


> Yup, well said.
> 
> I ain't going to sea anytime soon (the honest with myself thing), but I can refit _you_ a boat to take to sea that'll make others droll and Neptune proud. We all have our place in this sailing thing, everything counts


Well would you come down here and finish mine!! I'm on my fith refit with this thing and I'm tired and busy.:laugher


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## chrisncate

Capt.aaron said:


> In 1988, I drove around a '79 monte carlo, had a mullet. my arm around the Swedish exchange student, listening to REO speedwagon.....cassete that had been eaten, and taped back together with scotch tape. Gas was $1.14 a gal.


I got my DL in 88, first car was a Vette.

CHEvette that is...


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## sww914

Many outdoor activities aren't involving young people anymore, they're accustomed to instant everything at the twitch of their thumbs. Virtual friends, virtual sports, virtual relationships, virtual jobs.


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## chrisncate

Capt.aaron said:


> Well would you come down here and finish mine!! I'm on my fith refit with this thing and I'm tired and busy.:laugher


Key West?

Yes, yes I will...


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## Capt.aaron

Well, if you can work on the hook with now electricity, hand tools, almost no pay and live on the boat with a 2 mile kayak to town I welcome you!!


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## chrisncate

Hmm.. you say that like it's a _bad_ thing...

I'd wind up driving you nuts, I'm sure. I have some, uh... eccentricities..

Snueman can back me up on that prolly.. 

How am I gonna paint yr hull in the water though?


----------



## Capt.aaron

Oh. I'm all painted, It's the interior that's driving me nuts.


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## chrisncate

Capt.aaron said:


> Oh. I'm all painted, It's the interior that's driving me nuts.


Epic thread jack in progress... :laugher

PM me sometime when you get a chance, lemme know what's up with your interior (stumper? Or just not feeling like doing it?).


----------



## Capt.aaron

chrisncate said:


> Epic thread jack in progress... :laugher
> 
> PM me sometime when you get a chance, lemme know what's up with your interior (stumper? Or just not feeling like doing it?).


Just don't feel like it. Hull is sound and painted awl grip, Rig is new and sta-lock top and bottom, Interior is half ass as alway's. Home Depot cushoins and a light for reading.


----------



## chrisncate

Capt.aaron said:


> Just don't feel like it. Hull is sound and painted awl grip, Rig is new and sta-lock top and bottom, Interior is half ass as alway's. Home Depot cushoins and a light for reading.


If you're single, your boat's done it sounds like.. 

Smash some grey butyl into/onto those bottom sta locks to help keep water from settling in them...


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## Capt.aaron

I'm not single but she's salty.... Ya, I'm a rigger so that part is sound, I'm not Martha Stewart so that part is comfortable enough, barely. But getting back on topic, the point is, what do these young'ns really need to get out there? Not a whole hell of a lot. The chosen few will do it, like JG. The rest are the indoorsy type any way's. I alway's say, thank's to all the people who stay in town so I have nice towns to visit.


----------



## chrisncate

Capt.aaron said:


> I'm not single but she's salty.... Ya, I'm a rigger so that part is sound, I'm not Martha Stewart so that part is comfortable enough, barely. But getting back on topic, the point is, what do these young'ns really need to get out there? Not a whole hell of a lot. The chosen few will do it, like JG. The rest are the indoorsy type any way's. I alway's say, thank's to all the people who stay in town so I have nice towns to visit.


They only need the _will_ to do so, and there is something to be said for the fact that maybe it _is_ actually a good thing that the interest is not there in outdoors stuff, for the kids coming up right now.

I have noticed the lineup (surfing lingo for where surfer sit waiting for waves) is emptier now than it was in the 80's and 90's (where I surf anyway)..


----------



## Capt.aaron

Surfing? I think theres an app for that now. I read that in one of those paper magizines you used to see everywhere.


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## Jgbrown

chrisncate said:


> They only need the _will_ to do so, and there is something to be said for the fact that maybe it _is_ actually a good thing that the interest is not there in outdoors stuff, for the kids coming up right now.
> 
> I have noticed the lineup (surfing lingo for where surfer sit waiting for waves) is emptier now than it was in the 80's and 90's (where I surf anyway)..


It's also the hassles and expenses. 
As an example I rented a double kayak to go camping on a place I remembered visiting as a kid. I wanted to go back to that island with my girlfriend at the time. 75$/day for the kayak, then all the parking anywhere it was possible to launch from was either no more than 1 hr parking or expensive per day parking to make a bit for the city off those freeloading un-powered boat users(no ramp fees if you launch a kayak on a beach). 10$/day for the parking.
We paid and thought at least the camping on the beach will be good, we brought a small ultralight tarp and no tent. 
after a good 8 hr paddle we arrived where we planned to stay only to get chased off for trying to sleep on the beach with our kayak and a small tarp.
The big power boats would come right up close to the shore and BBQ next to us, drink and blast their stereos with the generators running, anchoring to shore and going back and forth to the beach in powered tenders. 
We were ordered to move to a campsite, where you must stay within 7'x7' squares made out of 4"x4" boards, in the middle of a field, no shade, and no ocean with neighbors a couple feet away.
For 30$/day(15$ each) :hothead.

Add in gas to get to the launch point, and we're talking over 300$ for a 2 day trip, in a plastic kayak. 


Of course we just moved a bit down the beach, buried the kayak and stealth camped but I wasn't pleased.

The surf areas are getting that way too, we tried to camp near one of those as well, paid camping, paid parking.
The only free camping left was to drive to some logging roads about 45 min away, out past the landfill for the town.
Still worse are the no access at all areas, and there are more of them all the time. It was one of the things my girlfriend disagreed with the most strongly, the organization she worked for created a lot of these areas, and as a biologist she felt it was unjustified, and forcing people to spend less and less time outdoors for no benefit other than appeasing the environmental nuts.

Day use, close to town is the way that almost everything is being driven, even for those who do want to do outdoors stuff still, just because it is slightly more affordable. The gear stores see this, expedition style gear is going away, in favor of lightweight inexpensive day packs, and rack after rack of "outdoor style" clothing.

Those lessons, like from the powerboats and the way I see things moving for more regulation, and squeezing every possible angle for generating revenue off anyone who wants to go outdoors also influenced my decision to buy a boat I could live on, if I'm not on land it's harder for them to tell me I can't be there.


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## night0wl

This article couldn't have been released at a more opportune time as it relates to this discussion:

Are Millennials the Screwed Generation? | Newgeography.com

"Inevitably, young people are delaying their leap into adulthood. Nearly a third of people between 18 and 34 have put off marriage or having a baby due to the recession, and a quarter have moved back to their parents' homes, according to a Pew study. These decisions have helped cut the birthrate by 11 percent by 2011, while the marriage rate slumped 6.8 percent. The baby-boom echo generation could propel historically fecund America toward the kind of demographic disaster already evident in parts of Europe and Japan."


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## sneuman

night0wl said:


> This article couldn't have been released at a more opportune time as it relates to this discussion:
> 
> Are Millennials the Screwed Generation? | Newgeography.com
> 
> "Inevitably, young people are delaying their leap into adulthood. Nearly a third of people between 18 and 34 have put off marriage or having a baby due to the recession, and a quarter have moved back to their parents' homes, according to a Pew study. These decisions have helped cut the birthrate by 11 percent by 2011, while the marriage rate slumped 6.8 percent. The baby-boom echo generation could propel historically fecund America toward the kind of demographic disaster already evident in parts of Europe and Japan."


and ...

Generation Rent: Slamming Door Of Homeownership : NPR

"The economic hammer has fallen especially hard on 20somethings - part of the so-called Millennial Generation or Gen Y born roughly between 1975 and 1995. Plagued by high unemployment, many have had to delay careers, marriage and having children. And the idea of owning a home is more often being put off or written off entirely.

In a nation where homeownership is part of the American dream, a generation of renters could alter communities where they live and redefine the idea of middle-class success."


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## youmeandthed

Yeah that is a good article. It gives a good idea of the landscape we faced upon graduation. We worked hard and saved diligently, not giving up and life is ok. The future was looking so bleak career wise, we just decided to go sailing instead of be underemployed and bored.

I think millennials are afraid to take a chance. There are a lot of long term couples who rent and aren't planning on getting married. They are afraid of what they will miss out on in the workforce by leaving, and if they do leave it's for a year to go backpacking and get drunk and screw a bunch of randoms... 

I see my generation and what strikes me as the most unfortunate issue is they don't think. There are very very few situations of young people thinking beyond the prescribed borders. Sure they are some who are successful, but a lot of that comes down to their parents influences (connections). They lack creativity. If they have it so bad with the two existing political parties, make a new one. But we are too apathetic. 

I am trying to explain to my friend right now that crossing the Pacific is a good reason to postpone graduation for 6 months (he's half way through his degree and has 2 years to go). HE thinks he will miss out on something if he leaves school for a semester....... What he doesn't see is how much he will miss out on if he stays for a few courses, he may never get the chance to sail across the pacific (at least at this cost) again. 

Gen Y has grown up in a world of fear... it shows.


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## johnnyquest37

youmeandthed said:


> Gen Y has grown up in a world of fear... it shows.


You are probably on to something here. I was born in '63, just to frame where I am on the spectrum. But what is generating the fear? Lack of increased economic opportunity? Inability to deal with uncertanty? My father's generation grew up in the shadow of nuclear obliteration and experienced the cold war, the civil rights movement, and Vietnam (including the draft). His father's generation had to deal with the Great Depression and WWII. Compare this my generation - we had to deal with Disco, pretty horrible, but other than that...

So what kind of fear are we talking about here? What is driving it? I think you are right - there is something fatalistic about the current generation, but it's not the shaking-in-one's-boots kind of fear. It is something else that I can't put my finger on.


----------



## night0wl

youmeandthed said:


> Yeah that is a good article. It gives a good idea of the landscape we faced upon graduation. We worked hard and saved diligently, not giving up and life is ok. The future was looking so bleak career wise, we just decided to go sailing instead of be underemployed and bored.
> 
> .


That is a great attitude...good on you!


----------



## bljones

johnnyquest37 said:


> You are probably on to something here. I was born in '63, just to frame where I am on the spectrum. But what is generating the fear?


That fear starts from birth, when the baby comes home in a new car seat, then is transferred to a toddler booster seat, to be driven to school where the kids can only play non-contact sports, must wear helmets when bicycling, all activities must be organized, supervised and insured and one must never ever walk home alone because you will get abducted. A whole generation has grown up in the shadow of Adam Walsh and milkbox kids and dire warnings about pressure treated lumber in playground equipment and the risks of bicycling 
Some of those fears are valid... but which ones? If parents refuse to let their kids grow, then is anyone surprised at the reluctance of the offspring to leave the nest?
Throw in growing up in tract homes with central air, no porches, high privacy fences, x-boxes and big screens and the tendency is to view the rest of the world with suspicion from a coccoon too comfortable to leave.

As far as home ownership goes, I didn't buy my first home until I was in my 30s- just like most of my friends back in the 90s. A mortgage was tougher to get back in the day, but easier than the previous generation, and the rate was 8.25%, higher than today but lower than two decades before, and I could only amortize over 25 years. yeah, it isn't as easy as it was to buy a home in 2005, but it is easier than it was in 1995, which was easier than it was in 1980.


----------



## chrisncate

I don't think it's so much the fear. Personally, I think it's the training of this generation since the early 90's that has led to the weak will to rebel against anything and simply blindly follow what the (apply corporate logo here) tells them to do. They are the trained generation that never got that they didn't _have_ to do what they were told they had to do.

By training, I mean the way corporate advertising has distilled out the notion of youth rebellion against (fill in corporate logo, social convention or just about anything you might rebel against as a late teen here). I was 18 at the the height of the "Nirvana" era in 1991, and back then it was well understood that you didn't buy into what "the man" was trying to sell you (the song wasn't called "Smells like teen spirit" for nothing, that was actually a cheesy teen deodorant that was a running joke for it's dumb commercials that tried to portray youth culture in some manner that was clearly not accurate).

Fast forward just a decade later, and the mall had a store called "Hot Topic" which was the result of taking _my_ generations rebellion and youth culture and packaging it all up into a nifty little store bought style (just one glaring example). Had a "Hot Topic" existed in my era of youth, it'd have failed out of the box. My age group looks at stuff like that as a joke, the next generation looks at that as just where you get your "cool" cloths and style without realizing that it didn't originate there at all.

It's been 20+ years of the corporate state (and others) killing youth culture by reshaping youth from the inside out instead of the way it used to be which was the corporate state always trying to figure out the kids from the outside. I think they have finally won.

It's just one guys opinion here, and keep in mind I'm the one guy in line who refuses to give a phone number or personal info even though everyone else can't give it away fast enough.. 

What am I rebelling against? _Whaddya got.._


----------



## chall03

bljones said:


> That fear starts from birth, when the baby comes home in a new car seat, then is transferred to a toddler booster seat, to be driven to school where the kids can only play non-contact sports, must wear helmets when bicycling, all activities must be organized, supervised and insured and one must never ever walk home alone because you will get abducted. A whole generation has grown up in the shadow of Adam Walsh and milkbox kids and dire warnings about pressure treated lumber in playground equipment and the risks of bicycling
> Some of those fears are valid... but which ones? If parents refuse to let their kids grow, then is anyone surprised at the reluctance of the offspring to leave the nest?
> Throw in growing up in tract homes with central air, no porches, high privacy fences, x-boxes and big screens and the tendency is to view the rest of the world with suspicion from a coccoon too comfortable to leave.


Yeah I think your right, this is very much the trend here in Australia as well. 
However there are a few of us in this in this generation who are aware and choosing to do it a bit differently.

My problem with the cocoon is that it is a false illusion. Life is tough to us all in the end, the only way to learn to handle danger is to understand it, assess risk and learn how to make good judgements.

To put it in sailing terms you don't prepare for a circumnavigation by sitting in a rowboat on a lake on a sunny day with a lifejacket on.

Sure we might be a small 'anecdotal' sample, we are clearly not the norm but we are here.


----------



## smackdaddy

chall03 said:


> To put it in sailing terms you don't prepare for a circumnavigation by sitting in a rowboat on a lake on a sunny day with a lifejacket on.


You said it brother!


----------



## bljones

chall03 said:


> Yeah I think your right,


I'm just gonna quote that, for the record.


----------



## youmeandthed

I think the fear is the fear of failure. I have failed so many times in my life. I still got a degree and a job and an apartment and a hot wife(inside and out ok, not to be sexist) and a car. But I would shoot pretty high when I tried things, and many times I would fail. I also see a lot of my peers who just play it safe (rent/live with parents, take easier degrees, work boring safe jobs, date an ugly b!#$% (inside and out) they don't really want to marry, buy a KIA). I just can't do that and every once in a while your cards deal right and you win a hand. But I think we grew up without failure, without respecting that failing is a growth experience. 

"I really want to buy a boat, but what if....."

I had to talk my wife into cruising, and now that she went home for a month, she doesn't know how we managed our old life. All she wants is to be back in the tropics with me and away from the BS.

I digress, I don't mean fear as in terror; I mean Gen Y is ingrained to always win, and therefore fears failure.


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## CapnBilll

chall03 said:


> To put it in sailing terms you don't prepare for a circumnavigation by sitting in a rowboat on a lake on a sunny day with a lifejacket on.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Thats really true.


----------



## CapnBilll

I learned to fish by walking to a nearby stream, and finding things to put on my hook to catch a fish.

My son learned by playing a video game where you selected lures from a menu, and fish came by in timed intervals, (of about 30 seconds). 5 minutes after I took him fishing he was ready to go home, and back to the game.

I don't know where this is going. But I probably don't want to stick around to find out.


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## tdw

Flipping through this thread a few things strike me ...

Even back in the seventies there were not all that many young people out there cruising ..... there were not all that many people in total out there cruising. In reality it was camping out afloat for all but the very few while lack of reliable weather forecasting meant more likelyhood of getting a serious dust up. More comfort has meant more boats and less empty anchorages. Bad news really.

Back then it was cheap. Heck the boat that I was preparing and the boat I crewed on up north in the mid seventies had VHS and a cassette deck. Other than lights and engine panel that was it. Vane self steering no auto pilot. This was pretty typical of the time. It made for cheap cruising. 

No one back then seriously thought about using marinas. Not if you were cruising at least. Thats why god gave us anchors ffs. Nowadays how many times do you read that air conditioning is an absolute essential for liveaboard ? 

None of which is to cast doubt on those of you saying that the young people of today have an attitude probelm. They probably do. I know a fair few young sailors and none of them are interested in cruising long term. Hell if they cannot get to Hobart in under four days its considered way too slow. Us duffers wafting along at 5 knots are simply considered boring. May be correct too but between five and ten suits me fine, just as I'm a walker not a runner. 

To take the attitude thing further .... I thoroughly agree that connectivity or lack thereof would be a major part as to why younger people would find the idea of cruising a problem. Even now one reads of people needing, NEEDING ffs to ensure they can get an internet connection or that location is out of the question. Windows 8 will be next to useless for anyone wanting to escape from the clamour of the modern world (its a cloud thing) , Windows 7 will soon be looked back on as lovingly as dear old Windows XP and I for one am going to stock up before every new machine ships with W8.

Now, I am no luddite. I want as many mod cons as I can get but those mod cons must work within the environment of the somewhat self contained environment of a boat. If I can get a connection I'll take advantage of it, we have a Sat phone which will be online when we head offshore and I'm not going to do without a lot of things that are really not necessary but hey, I'm old and I can afford it. Otoh, if that mod con means being tied almost permanently to a slip then sorry chaps, I'll survive without it. 

One other thought in this rather meandering post .... I'm no terribly au fait with a lot of youth culture I readily admit but last evening home and flicked on the idiot box only to come face to face with a program featuring two very serious young insects reviewing computer games. The dreaded ffs has already been over used in this post but jaysus ... they sounded like they were reviewing the latest Bergman. Now again, I don't mind the odd computer game myself but taking them seriously ? F .... sorry ..... purlease. 

All of which simply makes me wonder if it is just the mindset that is different and cruising under sail which is after all essentially a post WWII phenomenon has had its day in the sun. Some saw it as cheap way to travel, cheap air fares and backpacker accomodation plus the increasing cost of cruising have put paid to that after all. 

Oh yes, and the charter fleets did not exist back in the olde dayes either. 

Nor was cruising by liner so cheap and accessible.

All of which brings me to .... if my generation are wanting to get back on land and put their feet up in front of the fire, while the youngsters cannot abide being away from their ipods does this mean emptier anchorages for the rest of us ? 

Silver lining boys and girls, silver lining.


----------



## aeventyr60

Let's drink to the silver lining! 

This lifestyle is not for everybody.


----------



## chall03

bljones said:


> I'm just gonna quote that, for the record.


Shish. I didn't mean to actually admit _that_

Ok. But just don't go and start a thread about it 

Too soon??


----------



## pcloot

*costs problems*

Well let's see this way.
If A couple of young people have a house it cost depends on the area $200000 30years ago 80-120k$
in fact if this couple likes to buy a used boat the need to invest a min. Of 20k$ however I'm always afraid of the slip fees depending on the area 20-40$/ft who can afford this ? Between the payments of the house and car ? Life is starting extremely expensive and the hobby is the first think young people will cut on.


----------



## P8dawg

Before I was 18, I had owned 2 Sunfish and two beachcats. Now, you can't buy a new boat, even a small one, without spending thousands. The sailboat market has overpriced itself out of business. When a new Opti costs more than a jet-ski, maybe that should tell the boat builders something.


----------



## tdw

*Re: costs problems*



pcloot said:


> Well let's see this way.
> If A couple of young people have a house it cost depends on the area $200000 30years ago 80-120k$
> in fact if this couple likes to buy a used boat the need to invest a min. Of 20k$ however I'm always afraid of the slip fees depending on the area 20-40$/ft who can afford this ? Between the payments of the house and car ? Life is starting extremely expensive and the hobby is the first think young people will cut on.


Slip fees ? Why is it that so many people consider a marina pen to be an essential part of boat ownership ? Moorings are a damn sight more pleasant overall and the only downside is the need to row out to the boat. Oh woe.

edit - or is it that in many parts of America, mooring fields are non existent ?


----------



## smackdaddy

P8dawg said:


> Before I was 18, I had owned 2 Sunfish and two beachcats. Now, you can't buy a new boat, even a small one, without spending thousands. The sailboat market has overpriced itself out of business. When a new Opti costs more than a jet-ski, maybe that should tell the boat builders something.


Buy used. See my previous post above on the Catalina 25 for less than $2K.


----------



## Jgbrown

*Re: costs problems*



tdw said:


> Slip fees ? Why is it that so many people consider a marina pen to be an essential part of boat ownership ? Moorings are a damn sight more pleasant overall and the only downside is the need to row out to the boat. Oh woe.
> 
> edit - or is it that in many parts of America, mooring fields are non existent ?


Around Vancouver that's true.

No mooring fields here, and the safe anchorages are 2 week out of 4 only.
There are lots of places they could have moorings too.
I'd be happier paying that than 14-20$/ft/mo.


I am not ready to try my luck anchoring out on a fairly exposed lee shore all winter just yet 
If I could have a mooring there I'd be more likely to risk it.

It's a catch 22 in some ways, a boat cheap enough to buy without a big loan(I got a large to me loan for my boat, and it's still unsafe for it until I finish the refit) is likely unsafe unless you can anchor somewhere with a bit of shelter.


----------



## tdw

*Re: costs problems*



Jgbrown said:


> Around Vancouver that's true.
> 
> No mooring fields here, and the safe anchorages are 2 week out of 4 only.
> There are lots of places they could have moorings too.
> I'd be happier paying that than 14-20$/ft/mo.
> 
> 
> I am not ready to try my luck anchoring out on a fairly exposed lee shore all winter just yet
> If I could have a mooring there I'd be more likely to risk it.
> 
> It's a catch 22 in some ways, a boat cheap enough to buy without a big loan(I got a large to me loan for my boat, and it's still unsafe for it until I finish the refit) is likely unsafe unless you can anchor somewhere with a bit of shelter.


I feared that might be the problem. Poor you. Just to make you feel really bad we have a professionally laid (so fully insured) mooring 15 minutes from home for AUD$800.00 a year which is part of the reason why I cannot understand anyone being on a marina and paying that much a month.

Ah ... to clarify I can understand a permanent though still working liveaboard being on a marina. Even I would not want to row to shore each morning come rain hail or shine.

No way would I leave my boat on an anchor on a permanent basis.


----------



## Jgbrown

*Re: costs problems*



tdw said:


> I feared that might be the problem. Poor you. Just to make you feel really bad we have a professionally laid (so fully insured) mooring 15 minutes from home for AUD$800.00 a year which is part of the reason why I cannot understand anyone being on a marina and paying that much a month.
> 
> Ah ... to clarify I can understand a permanent though still working liveaboard being on a marina. Even I would not want to row to shore each morning come rain hail or shine.
> 
> No way would I leave my boat on an anchor on a permanent basis.


I would be happy to make the commute. But to risk it all at anchor when they city will crush the boat after 48 hrs... I'll pass until I'm damn sure it'll stay put and safe.
I wish we were allowed to put down moorings here, I'd go put one down in a heartbeat if I was allowed!
getting to and from the boat was just fine by me. Except that I had only 2 weeks on my permit and they police carefully.


----------



## aeventyr60

*Re: costs problems*



tdw said:


> I feared that might be the problem. Poor you. Just to make you feel really bad we have a professionally laid (so fully insured) mooring 15 minutes from home for AUD$800.00 a year which is part of the reason why I cannot understand anyone being on a marina and paying that much a month.
> 
> Ah ... to clarify I can understand a permanent though still working liveaboard being on a marina. Even I would not want to row to shore each morning come rain hail or shine.
> 
> No way would I leave my boat on an anchor on a permanent basis.


Can I PLEASE borrow your mooring in a few years? Maybe you'll be off cruising....


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## w00dc4ip

Regarding the generations, there's this amazing difference in people's attitudes and lifestyles, and I notice more and more that I'm right in the middle of this huge generation gap. At the age of 35, I notice people in my age group, and slightly above, that seem to have no ambition, no drive, expect to have everything handed to them. They're not the majority, but there's a lot of them. Just below my age range seems to be where people like this transition to the majority. There are still a lot of driven 20 somethings, but the ones that are trying to make something of themselves seem to be in the minority. 

Most of the "kids" that work in the shop I run seem to be content to just work there and get their paycheck, go out drinking and live at home with their parents. Some of these "kids" have already turned 30. My industry is one where someone with a little intelligence and a lot of drive can go from making minimum wage to making six figures within 5 years, easily. I know this because I did it, and my cousin who I got started in the business 6 months behind me, is in the same situation. At the same time, there's one guy in the shop in particular who was nothing but a helper when I started, and he's still there in the same position now, 7 years later. I went from being his trainee to being his boss, and he doesn't even see the problem with that. Now as his boss I try to get him to take an interest and put forth some effort, but he wants nothing more than to live in his parents basement and drink his paycheck away.

I know this is anecdotal, but I notice it everywhere. I see it in the shop where I work, hear about it from clients and colleagues, and read about it in the news and on the internet and on forums like this one. The world is shifting thanks to modern technology, but there isn't much any of us can do about it. The 24 hour news cycle and information overload society that require everyone to constantly be updated on everyone else status instantly means we spend so much less time doing and more time watching everyone else do. Couple that with the government and corporations constantly instilling fear in people so they buy now, spend now, get more, upgrade, and we see why people can't get ahead or even keep up. I'm doing very well by most people's standards, but I see what's coming and know that I need to keep working harder and harder just to maintain. Maybe I'm the fool and the "lazy" people have it right, there's no reason to put forth so much effort when the game is rigged, and always will be. 

Where will the world be when the people who do put forth the effort now finally give in and stop putting forth so much effort?


----------



## tdw

*Re: costs problems*



aeventyr60 said:


> Can I PLEASE borrow your mooring in a few years? Maybe you'll be off cruising....


ah .... I forgot to mention the one major hitch. Only one boat is allowed to use the mooring and if I sell the boat it cannot stay on that mooring. New owner would have to apply for a mooring permit and there is usually a waiting list though I of course am allowed to put any boat I buy onto the mooring. If the mooring is vacant for more than three months the permit lapses. Should another boat appear on the mooring they would get a please explain after an unspecified time then a demand to move.

Where we are is funnily enough not high demand so we only had to wait three months when we first applied. If we tried for something closer to home the waiting list could stretch on for years. I confess though I am happy 15 minutes from home cos it is such a peaceful spot with virtually zero commercial traffic.

Other than , you are more than welcome to use it when we are away.


----------



## w00dc4ip

smackdaddy said:


> Buy used. See my previous post above on the Catalina 25 for less than $2K.


Regarding budget limitations causing people to stay away from sailing...

Any suggestions for "budget" sailing in major metro areas, specifically Chicago. There are plenty of cheap boats out there, it's the slip/mooring anywhere near Chicago that's going to cost an arm and a leg, not to mention the required insurance to be in one of the marinas. I don't have a truck that can haul a boat in and out every time I want to go sail (and the only place to do so is the ramps at the marinas, and they charge heavily for their use and vehicle parking), and nowhere to store a boat on a trailer anyway. As far as I can tell, thanks to city/state laws, there's nowhere to legally anchor and just leave the boat on the hook somewhere.

Advice for someone really trying to get into sailing more???


----------



## Capt.aaron

*Re: costs problems*



Jgbrown said:


> I would be happy to make the commute. But to risk it all at anchor when they city will crush the boat after 48 hrs... I'll pass until I'm damn sure it'll stay put and safe.
> I wish we were allowed to put down moorings here, I'd go put one down in a heartbeat if I was allowed!
> getting to and from the boat was just fine by me. Except that I had only 2 weeks on my permit and they police carefully.


I had my boat for 2 years in my father in law's back yard. When we put it on the trailer with a travel lift at the yard and started driving to his house, I said,"how are we going to get the boat off the trailer?" as it was rented. "I don't know." he replied. I said I don't care if we tie it to a tree and drive away with the trailer....so we did. I ran a chain through the hole where the shaft once was, and wrapped the other end around a tree. we inch by inch, yanked the boat off the trailer, setting it on a row of 6x6's. With lines off the sides to keep it upright. ( I have a point here) We then augered out holes and installed an old car lift, like from a garage, on either side. Long story short, when I was finally ready to splash. I needed a mooring, but it's illegal to drop your own mooring. so. (here's my point) I cut the bottom three feet off the old car lift stands, wich are what I call " home made anchors". So, I am now in creek, with 2, 150 pound "home made anchors" not a mooring. Some thing to think about. "no officer, That is an anchor not a mooring, " < you can probably find anchor shaped, heavy objects at a junk yard, that you can raise with a windlass, or two healthy dudes, if you need to. It's working for me.


----------



## tdw

*Re: costs problems*



Capt.aaron said:


> I snippy wich are what I call " home made anchors". So, I am now in creek, with 2, 150 pound "home made anchors" not a mooring. Some thing to think about. "no officer, That is an anchor not a mooring, " < you can probably find anchor shaped, heavy objects at a junk yard, that you can raise with a windlass, or two healthy dudes, if you need to. It's working for me.


Aaron,
What do you do when you go sailing ? Surely you don't haul the "anchors" aboard and if you set a buoy wouldn't that legally define them as a mooring.

Or ... is it poorly policed ?

Andrew B


----------



## Capt.aaron

I anchor near where I have the home mades, and snorkle down an retreve my line. it's in about 10 feet of clear sub, tropical water. I used to mark it with and old lobster trap bouy, but came back and found some fisherman tied to it, so now i just cast off and let the line sink. For a year i was tied to just one of the feet, but i would drag a little in a big blow as the bottom is hard, Not very good holding, The other day I daisy chained the other piece to the first one. They are not for traveling. I also have another mooring in the creek that is four Dumb bells chained together. Each way's 100 pounds, so collectivly they way 400. but can be man handled individually. I scored those off the back of the tug boat i work on, some big dude used to work out with them. Those Are great as a centinal. So you anchor with say, a 70 pound danforth, but shackle the dumbells mid scope. It's not a mooring, but as good as. I've been skirting around this illeagal mooring law for over 20 years and have never had a problem. the law here is, you have to be able to raise it if they tell you to, if you can raise it, then it's not a mooring. My car lift feet kind of look like anchors, I' would have to swim down and un shackle one from the other to raise it, but i can raise it. I actually have them set up like centinals as I have 30 feet of chain running north from them with a 45 danforth on the other end. Marking it with a bouy does'nt classify it as a mooring. I used to cast off my anchor and leave it marked with a bouy. lot's of people here do that. They buy a 100 pound anchor and leave it marked. It's not a mooring, just really big anchor.


----------



## smackdaddy

w00dc4ip said:


> My industry is one where someone with a little intelligence and *a lot of drive can go from making minimum wage to making six figures within 5 years, easily. I know this because I did it*, and my cousin who I got started in the business 6 months behind me, is in the same situation.
> 
> The 24 hour news cycle and information overload society that require everyone to constantly be updated on everyone else status instantly means we spend so much less time doing and more time watching everyone else do. Couple that with the government and corporations constantly instilling fear in people so they *buy now, spend now, get more, upgrade, and we see why people can't get ahead or even keep up. I'm doing very well by most people's standards, but I see what's coming and know that I need to keep working harder and harder just to maintain. *


Surely you can see the dichotemy in your post.

I think you're missing the point. Adventure...on a sailboat...is relatively cheap. It's just _really_ hard.

The question is...can you handle it?


----------



## chrisncate

Capt.aaron said:


> I anchor near where I have the home mades, and snorkle down an retreve my line. it's in about 10 feet of clear sub, tropical water. I used to mark it with and old lobster trap bouy, but came back and found some fisherman tied to it, so now i just cast off and let the line sink. For a year i was tied to just one of the feet, but i would drag a little in a big blow as the bottom is hard, Not very good holding, The other day I daisy chained the other piece to the first one. They are not for traveling. I also have another mooring in the creek that is four Dumb bells chained together. Each way's 100 pounds, so collectivly they way 400. but can be man handled individually. I scored those off the back of the tug boat i work on, some big dude used to work out with them. Those Are great as a centinal. So you anchor with say, a 70 pound danforth, but shackle the dumbells mid scope. It's not a mooring, but as good as. I've been skirting around this illeagal mooring law for over 20 years and have never had a problem. the law here is, you have to be able to raise it if they tell you to, if you can raise it, then it's not a mooring. My car lift feet kind of look like anchors, I' would have to swim down and un shackle one from the other to raise it, but i can raise it. I actually have them set up like centinals as I have 30 feet of chain running north from them with a 45 danforth on the other end. Marking it with a bouy does'nt classify it as a mooring. I used to cast off my anchor and leave it marked with a bouy. lot's of people here do that. They buy a 100 pound anchor and leave it marked. It's not a mooring, just really big anchor.


We should get a beer sometime, I think we'd get along well.


----------



## youmeandthed

Agreed, I say we will spend less money cruising for two years than if we back packed for two years. Plus we get to have our dog with us.

I do find it funny now when surrounded by our peers, they are jealous because we live in the tropics and have found a way to manage our trip into our lives. 

We all work and some of us are driven. Why do we gen Yers believe that the prescribed way is the only way. I get a bit confused by the mentality that there is only one way to achieve a goal, through a job and making money. I never had lots of money or amazing opportunity given to me, and I never had a good job. But I am out here cruising. I am obviously wired a bit different, I just wonder what it is like to be wired the other way I guess.


----------



## Capt.aaron

chrisncate said:


> We should get a beer sometime, I think we'd get along well.


Or 2 or 3 or 12. Come on down some time. we'll shoot the sh!t.


----------



## WDS123

Young Mommy's like to sail as much as OWG (old white guys)


----------



## w00dc4ip

smackdaddy said:


> Surely you can see the dichotemy in your post.


I do, the point isn't lost on me. Hard work is the same, whether it's maintaining a cruising lifestyle on a shoestring budget, or rising through the ranks in corporate or industrial workplaces. Hard work and ambition are the same, the will to pursue some goal, whatever it may be, needs to be there.


smackdaddy said:


> I think you're missing the point. Adventure...on a sailboat...is relatively cheap. It's just _really_ hard.
> 
> The question is...can you handle it?


Adventure, on a sailboat, is something I can only look forward to at the moment, and I do look forward to it. For now I'm locked into the life my wife wants, with our house in the suburbs, near our families, raising our two little girls.

At the moment I'm very successful by society's standards, but I need to keep working more and more and producing more and more in order to maintain this lifestyle. By the time I'm ready to leave it all behind and spend a few years sailing, I'd like to have the sailing experience under my belt to make such a move realistic, but getting that experience seems prohibitively expensive where I live. I'm attempting to convince my wife we should move somewhere coastal, soon but not yet. Also, I'll need to get my wife and kids comfortable on a boat. It's not the money or the difficulty in cruising that bothers me, but the one thing I'm not willing to leave behind to go cruising is my family. I'd leave the house, car, job, success, career and everything else in a heartbeat, without thinking twice about it or looking back.


----------



## Jgbrown

w00dc4ip said:


> I do, the point isn't lost on me. Hard work is the same, whether it's maintaining a cruising lifestyle on a shoestring budget, or rising through the ranks in corporate or industrial workplaces. Hard work and ambition are the same, the will to pursue some goal, whatever it may be, needs to be there.
> 
> Adventure, on a sailboat, is something I can only look forward to at the moment, and I do look forward to it. For now I'm locked into the life my wife wants, with our house in the suburbs, near our families, raising our two little girls.
> 
> At the moment I'm very successful by society's standards, but I need to keep working more and more and producing more and more in order to maintain this lifestyle. By the time I'm ready to leave it all behind and spend a few years sailing, I'd like to have the sailing experience under my belt to make such a move realistic, but getting that experience seems prohibitively expensive where I live. I'm attempting to convince my wife we should move somewhere coastal, soon but not yet. Also, I'll need to get my wife and kids comfortable on a boat. It's not the money or the difficulty in cruising that bothers me, but the one thing I'm not willing to leave behind to go cruising is my family. I'd leave the house, car, job, success, career and everything else in a heartbeat, without thinking twice about it or looking back.


Colour me confused here, but if you're putting away 6 figures, sailing isn't that expensive?
Also, what business is that where you can ramp up that quickly in 5 years?

Capt.Aaron, I might have to pick your brains about the huge anchor idea, I could probably do something similar, and that would take a huge financial load off that I could put towards upkeep of the boat, instead of someone else's pockets. I have no problem diving down, heck I could probably build a 4x4' frame, cover it in rocks and then move the rocks when it's time to up anchor!

I also looked at those screw in mooring posts, but was worried that with enough swinging it would undo, and the legal side of it as well.


----------



## Capt.aaron

Jgbrown said:


> Colour me confused here, but if you're putting away 6 figures, sailing isn't that expensive?
> Also, what business is that where you can ramp up that quickly in 5 years?
> 
> Capt.Aaron, I might have to pick your brains about the huge anchor idea, I could probably do something similar, and that would take a huge financial load off that I could put towards upkeep of the boat, instead of someone else's pockets. I have no problem diving down, heck I could probably build a 4x4' frame, cover it in rocks and then move the rocks when it's time to up anchor!
> 
> I also looked at those screw in mooring posts, but was worried that with enough swinging it would undo, and the legal side of it as well.


I use large anchors by most standards. My regular cruising anchor is a 50 pound CQR with 100 feet of 5/8 (yes 5/8 chain). I raise that by hand. My storm anchor is 70 pound danforth with 100 feet of said 5/8 chain. That's a lot for a 28 foot boat. But I don't drag. My bow is heavy, but I don't get tossed around in a big sea as much either. I keep the danforth in a stern laz, that I modified the hatch so i can fit in. My lunch hook is a 35 pound Danforth with 30 feet of 3/8 chain and 100 feet of 1/2 inch 3 strand. If it's legal to anchor in your bay, spend the money on a 100 pound anchor, what ever, a Navy anchor probably, 30 feet up the rhode, shackle 2, 100 pound dumbels as centinals, a little more chain, then some hearty 3 strand. You have to know exactly where it is and be good at swimming down to get it. The 3 strand will sink. If anchoring is legal, this is legal. If you have windless, you can raise it. If not, you and 2 freinds can raise it. I don't know how on it the water nazis up there are but it sounds like they are pretty bad. Worse case is they accuse you of an illegal mooring and you have to raise it to prove it's not. Maybe you have to move it with the help of 2 buddy's every week, so what, move it.


----------



## dan catalyst

im a younger guy, and i see lots of people my age sailing. ive been boat shoping and have been shown boats by people my own ago about 50% of the time, a girl my age was selling a catalina 27, a guy with a seidelman 25 and a younger like 17-18 year old guy with a py23 that knew more about sailing than the others. the younger crowd just posts more over on sailing anarchy,mostly about how to sail clipper marines in the ocean and how to break daddy's carbon mast in the roaring 40's non stop solo-circing a open 40


----------



## w00dc4ip

Jgbrown said:


> Colour me confused here, but if you're putting away 6 figures, sailing isn't that expensive?
> Also, what business is that where you can ramp up that quickly in 5 years?


Not to go into my monthly budget here, but my income supports my family living in a nice house in a nice neighborhood in a very expensive city and state. We have everything we need and most things we want without struggle. My income is low six figures, but six figures none the less. I'm careful with my money, which is how we're able to live comfortably. I work hard and I work a lot, which is why it's difficult for me to try to justify spending 10,000-15,000 a year on sailing (figure that much would cover the mooring / storage / insurance / upkeep in Chicago), when I'd probably only get out a few times in the season. As much as I really want to go sailing, keeping my family happy and healthy (financially healthy as well) is more important. Also, I have no debt other than a mortgage. I'm not saying I can't *afford* a boat and the cost of sailing in Chicago, it's just really expensive to the point of being absurd, and all for a relatively short sailing season.

Entertainment technology is the industry where someone can ramp up that quickly, and anyone can do it. It takes a little brainpower and a whole lot of drive, but it doesn't require a degree of any sort. You just need to be willing to work all hours, get dirty, learn fast, and occasionally work in mildly dangerous environments. If anything, my experience in this industry has taught me that it's easy to walk away from a career and come back to it or new one later. I walked away from a 200k/year career in IT in 2003 to start in this industry, because I got tired of IT. People with drive will always rise in the ranks quickly beyond the lazy people who wonder why everyone else keep "getting all the breaks".


----------



## IamJohnGalt

haven't read this full thread, but replying to first post.

I am 25. I have devoted my life to studying, but just realising now I want my sense of adventure, and time to just do things I want to do, go where I want to go. Even though I make ok money for my age, bills (on land) are stopping majority of people my age from going anywhere. Blame it on what you like, but most of it goes to paying off tuition debts, and rent. I have a great job track lined up (provided people are still looking for quants) and will be able to retire by the time I am 40, which is probably the realistic time I will buy my dream boat. Till then, I will be stuck in sailing courses. I do want to get into racing and possibly do my own solo circumnavigation, but as I am on track to be well over 80k in student debts on my undergrad alone, not to mention the 73-80k a year my MSc will cost me, it's going to be a while.

that being said, found out a friend is doing his basic cruising right now, and also wants to get into racing. So we have started looking for something in our price range. Probably a 420 or hobie cat. although we would like a sloop or full keel like a contessa 26, its just too expensive. 

Also really wanting to do my basic cruising on my spring reading week feb 2013, but the school I wish to study with is full for the week, so stuck waiting til spring. Will probably take my white I-III again as it has been a while, then my bronze to better my dinghy skills.

/rant


----------



## Agri

I just want to point out that the "current" generation of young people have been unemployed, unmotivated, disrespectful slackers since the dawn if time. Yet somehow the world survives 

As far as young people and sailing goes last spring a couple of local bands here on the island went on tour using three sailboats. I also see plenty of young people, between the ages of 16 and 29 working on/ using the boats around me in the harbour. 

Perhapse the tropics is the wrong place to meet up with younger cruisers/sailors.


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## smackdaddy

Someone needs to start a mirror thread to this one called:

"The grumps of the sailing world. Why are there so many 'know-it-all' old people pontificating??"


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## IamJohnGalt

Agri said:


> I just want to point out that the "current" generation of young people have been unemployed, unmotivated, disrespectful slackers since the dawn if time. Yet somehow the world survives .


I disagree with part of this. Lately the trend is younger people being underemployeed and not just unemployeed. This is much worse than unemployeed.

You feel useless, it's like working at Mcdonalds when you have a phd. Your over qualified.

The unemloyed people I have the privledge of knowing, work random jobs, but they work hard. They just can't find anything consistant.

The underemployeed on the other hand, are much worse off. Psychologically they feel worthless and unmotivated. I've been here, it's very difficult to get out of this rut without having something change your life significantly. Such as going back to school, or selling everything and living off the ocean .

Think things are bad now! They are only getting worse in the economical sense. We are turning into an Atlas Shrugged style situation, where everyone wants to work, but there are no jobs. An Old man and the sea style situation where you spend days working for something then someone takes it all away from you, beating you down and making you think your stuck in this rut.

Only thing left todo is fight for what you want, in steps that are within your means.

I joined here wanting to leave everything behind, buy a boat, and sail til I can't anymore. I now realise that's far off, and trying to be a realist about it. Start small, work to bigger and better things. Sure I won't enjoy it as much as an adult (I feel that this is true), but at least ill be doing something I love, and which I worked hard for.


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## BentSailor

smackdaddy said:


> Someone needs to start a mirror thread to this one called:
> 
> "The grumps of the sailing world. Why are there so many 'know-it-all' old people pontificating??"


_"...and why are they pontificating here instead of out sailing?"_


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## Pegu club

smackdaddy said:


> Someone needs to start a mirror thread to this one called:
> 
> "The grumps of the sailing world. Why are there so many 'know-it-all' old people pontificating??"


I thought that is what "know it all" old grumpy people are supposed to do... The world would just about stop if that were to change...


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## smackdaddy

It's your helicopter parents, advertising, and that X-Station 360 that made you this way you little gimp! Get a license!


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## bljones

Oh smacky, you hidebound contrarian, this is our job, as the Generation Who Has gone Before:
If we do not disparage, belittle and challenge the wet-behind-ears generation attempting to enter adulthood, how are we going to discover those very, very few upstarts wiling to say " hey, phuque you, oldpharte, i'm better, tougher stronger, smarter and more independent than you think,and i am going to prove it by rolling right over your obstinate slow-moving lost-in-the-past ass."

Unfortunately the vast majority fail to rise to the challenge, instead offering "yeah, but"'s, excuses designed to elicit sympathy, absolving mediocrity and excusing underachievement, as if they are the only generation to endure student loans, credit card debt, bleak job prospects, and, horrors, "underemployment"

There are still new millionaires and billionaires being created every day during a recession.
There are graduates getting great jobs,acing interviews, and moving on every semester, even during a recession.

Some do, others find excuses for not doing. Success is a choice, it ain't luck.


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## smackdaddy

bljones said:


> Oh smacky, you hidebound contrarian, this is our job, as the Generation Who Has gone Before:
> If we do not disparage, belittle and challenge the wet-behind-generation attempting to enter adulthood, how are we going to discover those very, very few upstarts wiling to say " hey, phuque you, oldpharte, i'm better, tougher stronger, smarter and more independent than you think,and i am going to prove it by rolling right over your obstinate slow-moving lost-in-the-past ass."


I can throw this part a +1. Well-put blojo.


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## ted.great.lakes

I'm 28 and just bought a 26 C&C and am in the process of outfitting it to head south from Florida. Solar, fridge, autohelm, AC inverter/charger, laptop with Nav software and charts, dinghy, sound system, LED lights.

I plan on leaving in January headed for Hemmingway Marina. After spending a month in Havana having fun I am either going to head down to the DR and put the boat on the hard there, or head out to the Bahamas and puts around there and then back to Florida.

I just started sailing last year and am hoping to have a blast. I really don't know what to expect.


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## emoney

I dunno the answers, but it's my thought that the biggest difference between "now" and "then" is the Baby Boomer's were reared by a Generation of folks that believed it was more important for their children to exceed everywhere they had went and obtained everything they never had. Sadly, that just doesn't seem to be the case now. It's become "the norm" to say things like, 'Heck with the kids, go out and enjoy yourself' and I'm not one to argue the right or wrong of that statement. I'm just pointing out that it exists. For anyone to believe that the student loans they graduated in 1975 with were "just like" the ones today is living in a fantasy world. I mean, come one, we're handing these kids a world where a basic & boring new car will cost them over $20k, a "starter home" over $150k and yet we expect them to earn the same income that was offered in 1980. The math just simply won't work out.


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## caberg

Hmmm..., kind of an old topic I see, but interesting all the same.

I'm 33. I've been passionate about boats and sailing since a very young age. Would love nothing more than to cruise the world. Sorta wish I took a couple years in my 20s to do it, though I had zero money back then. And anyway, I then met the woman of the dreams, got married, had a child....

Absent some independent source of income, it's just not possible for us to go cruising the world. We sail on the weekends, will charter down south, and hopefully will retire relatively young to a boat after the kid(s) is/are off on their own.

I don't get how young people go "cruise the world" absent some outside financial assistance. I was lucky to have college tuition picked up for me, but I was otherwise broke through my 20s and lived paycheck to paycheck, barely.


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## miatapaul

There are a few factors at work

The economy:
I think it is the disappearing middle class. I it is not just young people, but middle age as well. People don't have the disposable income they used to. 

The new generation:
The kids today want it now. They grew up with it being normal to fly places. I am in my late 40's and it was still fairly uncommon for my generation to fly somewhere for vacation.

The kids today don't have the attention span it takes to sail. Perhaps if we put a bunch of flashing lights and buzzers it would keep there attention. Perhaps some of the new boats with joystick controlled docking might interest them. Why actually sail when they can sail in a virtual world? 

It is not online and connected, especially in the open ocean. 

Back to the economy:
Young people have hundreds of thousands in debit by the time they get there degree.


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## Ritchard

SloopJonB said:


> I blame the women.


This is always your safest bet.


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## HeartsContent

Sailing is perceived as a "wealthy" sport and a complicated sport. My power boater friends that would come out with me and asked "you really know what all those ropes and things do?". My kids friends would say we are rich because we have a sailboat (wait till I get the bigger one!).

Access to the water is challenging, marinas are very expensive, dinghy access to shore is expensive and anchoring laws are threatening to decrease access even further. Add very aggressive and growing mob of government thugs on the water, the cost of the endeavor and it will run most off.

The only way to preserve sailing is for the community to value it. Support youth sailing programs (not just racing but cruising also). Support the Sea Scouts.


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## ahab211

Sounds like a trip of a lifetime! I have A C&C 24 and just do day sailing on Lake St. Claire. Have fun and good luck!


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## ted.great.lakes

Any of you seasoned sailors have any advice on a first timer heading to Cuba?


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## Capt. Gary Randall

hello Ted, where will you be leaving from, Florida?


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## youmeandthed

Ted,

Go and the most important thing is to take canadian dollars of euros. Then stuff will be cheap, but exchanging US is an expensive ordeal. Plus cruise the south coast and brush up on your spanish.


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## Gone Global

We are in our 20's and we are out here doing it! Loving every minute of it and wondering why I didn't leave sooner. Everyone has a different dream in life and this dream isn't a reality for everyone. Young people now a days seem to like things more than adventure or experiences. On top of that college debt was already mentioned. I have a lot of friends that would love to be out here and look back on poor decisions earlier in life. Fancy cars, big houses, college debt, credit cards. The reasons are endless. I personally feel that people bought way more than their means. Young people were capable of getting loans much greater than they could ever afford. To each their own.


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## Sic Semper Tyrannis

Kid that went to highschool with my son graduated from h's, got into college, got a deferment, bought a 32 footer and left from the Chesapeake to the Bahamas spring of 2011 and came back summer 2012. 

I heard he had an absolute ball. 

Very jealous. 

R

Sent from my Kindle Fire


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## caberg

Gone Global said:


> We are in our 20's and we are out here doing it! Loving every minute of it and wondering why I didn't leave sooner. Everyone has a different dream in life and this dream isn't a reality for everyone. Young people now a days seem to like things more than adventure or experiences. On top of that college debt was already mentioned. I have a lot of friends that would love to be out here and look back on poor decisions earlier in life. Fancy cars, big houses, college debt, credit cards. The reasons are endless. I personally feel that people bought way more than their means. Young people were capable of getting loans much greater than they could ever afford. To each their own.


Wouldn't it be nice if all a 20-something had to do was forego the fancy car and big house in order to go cruise the world? Nice blog, by the way. Sure looks like you have significant outside financial assistance. A ~$100k boat, a $500+/month "partying" budget. And looks like you haven't really left the eastern coastal waters.


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## eherlihy

I haven't read the entire thread, but I can sum my answer to the OP question up in 2 words;

Health Insurance​
If it were not for this insidious ongoing expense, my wife and I would be out there NOW.

Back in the '60's and '70s access to health services was more of a right than a business. Today, it seems that the opposite is true. Doctors were well paid back then, but insurance companies were not multi-billion dollar per year corporations. On the other hand, I recognize that many of the expensive procedures that are commonplace today were not available. Still, back in the day, the total cost of a visit to a Doctor is currently charged as a Co-pay.


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## Gone Global

caberg said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if all a 20-something had to do was forego the fancy car and big house in order to go cruise the world? Nice blog, by the way. Sure looks like you have significant outside financial assistance. A ~$100k boat, a $500+/month "partying" budget. And looks like you haven't really left the eastern coastal waters.


I wish we had outside financial assistance. No one has given a penny to us to make this dream a reality. Hence we don't even have a donate button on our blog. Lots of long hours at work made this a reality for me. Glad you enjoy browsing the blog! We are in the Chesapeake running from the hurricane season. The first of October we will begin heading South through the Caribbean and over to Central America. That's when things will really begin to get exciting!


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## GufShoz

Start early, start small. I paid for my grandson's week-long sailing camp. They just learn the basics on a Sunfish, but the seed is planted. He goes out with me on my boat, Hunter 29.5, but he finds it kinda boring when compared to the little boat.There's a lot of excitement in pushing the envelope, but knowing you're only going to get wet if you go too far.


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## Harborless

Because society tells us we have to get jobs and pay taxes and forgo personal freedom. 
I told society fo F'off. Got to finish school though.


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## NaviGsr

I like this article in the NY Times today. Funny and relevant reasoning that I think both generations can agree on: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/13/booming/13winerip.html?hp&gwh=54B1F913BCE43DCC2986ACDC4745E179


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## NateCP16

eherlihy said:


> I haven't read the entire thread, but I can sum my answer to the OP question up in 2 words;
> 
> Health Insurance​
> If it were not for this insidious ongoing expense, my wife and I would be out there NOW.


+1 on the health insurance. I'm 29 (relatively young by sailing standards) and every time I start to get the serious cruising bug my wife reminds me what our healthcare costs would be without employer subsidized insurance. I'm not complaining because we have very good insurance at a reasonable price, which is a lot more than most people have, but it keeps us in golden handcuffs.


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## B.Christ

A little late to post, but I don't want to be missed. I am 25, been dreaming of sailing on my own boat everyday since I was ten when all I did was read Patrick O'Brian novels and sail Lasers and I've finally got myself into a position to where I can sail half of my time, the other half working on ships (Hello Jones Act and GoneGlobal, I'll be seeing you in Marsh Harbour


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## Agri

Harborless said:


> Because society tells us we have to get jobs and pay taxes and forgo personal freedom.
> I told society fo F'off. Got to finish school though.


That's not exactly telling Society to [email protected]%$ off.

Sent from my GT-P6210 using Tapatalk 2


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## IamJohnGalt

the reason?

to quote Jimmy McMillan:

"Cause the rent is too damn high"


That being said, working on it. It's hard when you don't have money to buy a boat. Willing to do what it takes though. I want to own a boat in the next two years.


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## bljones

Agri said:


> That's not exactly telling Society to [email protected]%$ off.
> 
> Sent from my GT-P6210 using Tapatalk 2


okay, that's kinda funny.


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## Mudtimud

I'm a 22 year old Singaporean and I'll be graduating in 2 years. The cost of living here is high. Although the tuition fees are subsidised, the property prices here are out of control. Even a standard 3 room government high rise apartment costs half a million USD. To buy a car, we are required to bid for a certificate of entitlement which costs us 70-80 USD on top of the actual price of the car. That's why the rat race for better jobs starts from a young age, where parents struggle to send their kids to good schools and students at universities clammer for honours degrees to get ahead in the game, ahead of the inflation swell.

Now I have spoken to many students my age about their hopes and dreams, and in my opinion, it's kinda sad that almost all the time it's work related. Most young folks are so intimidated by the massive financial obstacle that they lose grip of any desire of adventure.

I crave for adventure, but I face the same obstacles. The question, in this context, comes down to what are you willing give up. For me, I've decided never to get my own apartment/car before I purchased and maintained a stable balance sheet of owning my very own bluewater voyager, which as itself will become my apartment. It is unlikely that I'll sustain any form of long term employment thereafter, given the nature of circumnavigation voyages.

In other words, I will be giving up the typical career-paved-settling-down-with-wife-and-kids future every singaporean parent would want for their kids. Not many are willing to give that up, not as a matured adult you are supposed to become.

My friends tell me my head is still up in the clouds, and it's a matter of time before I grow out of my dreams. I dread the day I realise how unrealistic my dreams are, but until then, I'll keep moving towards my current perception of the life I so desire.

The world is shrinking faster than ever, and sailors, voyagers, circumnavigators, adventurers become a fast vanishing breed. Why travel then you can walk the trails of the Grand Canyon, dive the depths of the Great Barrier Reef with Google? I have been searching high and low for like-minded folks to pursue this common goal with but it has so far been fruitless.


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## blutoyz

I couldn't get through this entire thread but was glad to see that many on here are just working stiffs like me with old boats that went for short money. 

I think that I am in good company

My comment on young people cruising...
I think that most of us were too busy making ends meet at that stage in our lives to really enjoy any free time that we had. I personally had a Bayliner that would allow me to zoom out to the islands to let the kids swim or zoom out to where the fish were at sunset, etc... (you get the picture)The ones that sailed (or sail) at a young age have a real passion for it. By the time most of us realize that the ride is much more enjoyable than the destination we find ourselves already forty-something knocking on fifty.

Just my $.02


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## The Desserters

smurphny said:


> The idea of what's fun has changed for kids. Few of them know how to work with their hands or find that a desirable thing to do. That's probably why more are not fixing up older boats as we used to do. They are all programmed from birth now to shoot for some career goal. Then they get in HUGE debt due to the utterly outrageous cost of the big college scam. Kids are on a treadmill in our sick society and have no time to be kids anymore.


For us, (32 & 24) I have to agree. Video games and computers are now the primary means of both entertainment AND making money. The idea and joy of working with your hands is something I was deterred from growing up. The youth today are encouraged to learn about technology in order to make a place for themselves in the world. Paige and I decided we didn't want that for ourselves and now in spite of being told we'll "never make it big" we are returning to a simpler life. We are learning to sail (although lessons are tough to fit into the budget) knit and crochet, farm, raise bees, and continue to love baking from scratch (no boxed batters for us!)
We tried the SF Bay Area (after living in the New Mexico desert) but can't afford boating and living. Once we move a little further north we'll try to buy a boat on which we can do both. In short, the youth has different priorities now and many have forgotten or never experienced the joy of stepping out from in front of a screen.
As for the future...I could go off for pages on my predictions so I'll keep it short. Eventually, we'll run out of oil. No more planes, no more super-tankers. Sailing will be the way to see the world and wanderlust will breath new life into it.


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## wanttosail

I'm in my 20's and have not yet started sailing but want to badly. Two reasons I haven't started yet, I have lived in Colorado my whole life (enough said).

After graduating college I immediatly got a good job with my degree and I am still working there five years later. For the last year+ I have wanted to move to the coast and start sailing. What is really holding me back is the fact that I can't get myself to quit my good professional job, its the "American Dream" to be a professional and have a career and lots of money and a house etc. A lot of friends and family tell me I'm crazy that I'd quit my job to be a sailboat bum and follow whatever path the wind would take me.

In other words, some of us younger people with our careers out of college and the money to buy a boat and start sailing are to busy making more money and advancing their career, its time consuming. On the flip side a lot of my college buddies are still working college type low paying jobs and paying off their student debts therefor unable to buy a boat.


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## TomMaine

I didn't read the whole thread but I have 2 college aged kids. I agree with much of what's said, money is a little tighter for them, jobs will be a little tougher. But overall, I don't think sailing and kids has changed much at all. 

Mine are both sailors, many of their friends are. Many go off sailing in smaller cheaper boats than we(their parents) sail in today. Some are going down the coast on winter breaks, some are crossing oceans as crew. 

Like myself, I don't expect any of them to be able to afford the costs of owning a cruising sized sailboat and it's related costs for some time(I didn't until my upper 30's). Boats are cheaper to buy today but ownership costs are on the rise. 

Another thing that's my own speculation; cruising, the style of the 60's and 70's, may not be as popular today and in coming decades. 

But I don't see any drop in the popularity of sailing from my generation to the present. Local programs and participation seems to be on the rise. 

What has changed; I don't know of one of these kids that goes on any of the sailing forums I frequent. My kids refer to my forums as "dads chat rooms"


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## deltaten

The OP reminds me of something...
Oh! yeah..that's it... sorry.. O F syndrome. 

Kinda like ya see (virtually) nuthin' but old geezers ridin' Harleys. Some ride dresser Hondas or Beemers and such. Very few youngsters can afford a Harley, et al....or even want one, for that matter 

The boats I drooled over back some 30 yr ago are now the "classics" and are _finally_ affordable to my purse......some of them


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## TomMaine

deltaten said:


> The OP reminds me of something...
> Oh! yeah..that's it... sorry.. O F syndrome.
> 
> Kinda like ya see (virtually) nuthin' but old geezers ridin' Harleys. Some ride dresser Hondas or Beemers and such. Very few youngsters can afford a Harley, et al....or even want one, for that matter
> 
> The boats I drooled over back some 30 yr ago are now the "classics" and are _finally_ affordable to my purse......some of them


Yeah, then we old geezers start saying, "Whatever happened to riding motorcycles?", then one goes by at 150mph that cost a couple grand used. That's the kind of bike the kids I know ride! 

With many kids into racing on sailboats, they may be drawn to faster sailboats, maybe more multi hulls? Those speed oriented kids know their sailing.

For wandering(sort of like what cruising is), the kids I know are going "woofing"(world organic farming-work for food) abroad, taking semesters abroad if they're in school(many colleges encourage), and doing more extreme type outdoor stuff, skiing, climbing, biking, hiking a country, etc. They're satisfying their urge to travel that way and few can really commit a year or more to go "cruising", not to mention pay for it today.

But if they want a good solid cruising type boat, there are some great deals out there(some are near free). But I'm just as glad my son, who needs more growing up, hasn't noticed that yet.


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## SailingChance

I'm in my 20s (admittedly my upper 20s though) and my boyfriend (who just hit 30) and I will be moving aboard our boat (34' seafarer) and sailing through the Caribbean in just about a month. While we were more than ready to go about our adventure, our friends in their 20s all viewed our plan as a dream, one they could never attain for themselves. 

All it took was a little planning to make it work. Oh, and I do have student loan debt still. 

Kelley


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## bljones

wanttosail said:


> I'm in my 20's and have not yet started sailing but want to badly. Two reasons I haven't started yet, I have lived in Colorado my whole life (enough said).
> 
> After graduating college I immediatly got a good job with my degree and I am still working there five years later. For the last year+ I have wanted to move to the coast and start sailing. What is really holding me back is the fact that I can't get myself to quit my good professional job, its the "American Dream" to be a professional and have a career and lots of money and a house etc. A lot of friends and family tell me I'm crazy that I'd quit my job to be a sailboat bum and follow whatever path the wind would take me.
> 
> In other words, some of us younger people with our careers out of college and the money to buy a boat and start sailing are to busy making more money and advancing their career, its time consuming. On the flip side a lot of my college buddies are still working college type low paying jobs and paying off their student debts therefor unable to buy a boat.


In other words, you don't want it bad enough. You want what you have now, more.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
That's why most cruisers are in their 40s, 50s, and 60s.


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## Enigma0

*Why are there so few young people cruising??*

They're subsisting in their mother's basement (Daddy's been sent/gone away because he doesn't have a job any more...), playing with video games. Or they're hanging out at malls in groups that are sexting each other with vid-phones, but rarely looking directly at anyone else.

per multimud: "Most young folks are so intimidated by the massive financial obstacle that they lose grip of any desire of adventure."

Or as another prior poster said, working at two dead-end part-time McJobs trying to make payments on their useless college 'education'.

Actually, the HS diploma youngsters who have gone into some craft are often better off. They may be able to get a used boat in a few years, if a second baby doesn't appear.

Sailboat manufacturers have come and gone over the decades and I reckon more will disappear during the 2010s.


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## SailingChance

*Re: Why are there so few young people cruising??*



Enigma0 said:


> They're subsisting in their mother's basement (Daddy's been sent/gone away because he doesn't have a job any more...), playing with video games. Or they're hanging out at malls in groups that are sexting each other with vid-phones, but rarely looking directly at anyone else.
> 
> per multimud: "Most young folks are so intimidated by the massive financial obstacle that they lose grip of any desire of adventure."
> 
> Or as another prior poster said, working at two dead-end part-time McJobs trying to make payments on their useless college 'education'.
> 
> Actually, the HS diploma youngsters who have gone into some craft are often better off. They may be able to get a used boat in a few years, if a second baby doesn't appear.
> 
> Sailboat manufacturers have come and gone over the decades and I reckon more will disappear during the 2010s.


Wow - holy cynics Batman. I think each of these responses is not only misguided, but ignorant and out of context. I am a young soon-to-be cruiser. My girlfriend and I are both giving up 6 figure careers to rebuild an old boat and take the plunge. We are lucky, but we still have to cover our student loans, etc.

The truth is, college is getting way too expensive, HS prepares you for **** and even though we have more college grads than ever in history, their degrees are costly and worth about as much as the paper they were printed on. Sailing is an expensive hobby. It's even more expensive to sustain long term as a cruiser without a retirement plan or a pension to pay the bills.

I have to say that I've found it rather troublesome how many "older" sailors poopoo the younger generation of sailors out there or even the idea of young cruisers. Many of the older cruisers on this forum put themselves in a higher class and practically discourage younger sailors with negative remarks and discouraging advice.

How often do you hear the old salts telling someone who wants to buy a boat and make a go of it - "you can't do that, you need 10 YEARS of sailing experience" or "you dont know what you're getting yourself into" or "you better reconsider..."

If people on this forum, ESPECIALLY THIS THREAD spent more time encouraging young sailors, volunteering time to teach, or shoot, even offering encouraging words of support, sailing would continue to grow.

"The ones who come before us will teach us the way forward" :hothead


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## Enigma0

*Re: Why are there so few young people cruising??*



SailingChance said:


> Wow - holy cynics Batman. I think each of these responses is not only misguided, but ignorant and out of context. I am a young soon-to-be cruiser. My girlfriend and I are both giving up 6 figure careers to rebuild an old boat and take the plunge. We are lucky, but we still have to cover our student loans, etc.
> 
> The truth is, college is getting way too expensive, HS prepares you for **** and even though we have more college grads than ever in history, their degrees are costly and worth about as much as the paper they were printed on. Sailing is an expensive hobby. It's even more expensive to sustain long term as a cruiser without a retirement plan or a pension to pay the bills.
> 
> I have to say that I've found it rather troublesome how many "older" sailors poopoo the younger generation of sailors out there or even the idea of young cruisers. Many of the older cruisers on this forum put themselves in a higher class and practically discourage younger sailors with negative remarks and discouraging advice.
> 
> How often do you hear the old salts telling someone who wants to buy a boat and make a go of it - "you can't do that, you need 10 YEARS of sailing experience" or "you dont know what you're getting yourself into" or "you better reconsider..."
> 
> If people on this forum, ESPECIALLY THIS THREAD spent more time encouraging young sailors, volunteering time to teach, or shoot, even offering encouraging words of support, sailing would continue to grow.
> 
> "The ones who come before us will teach us the way forward" :hothead


You call my post cynical, but didn't adduce facts to counter it. In fact, you confirm the mistaken perception that it takes some years getting '6 figure' salaries in order to go cruising.

There are good technical and vocational tracks in some HS; the student and parents just need to take the initiative and spend a bit more in study time and money respectively.

A high school grad who first has spent a few years in some construction or reno trade, or even better, working in a boat-yard, can find a reasonably-priced deep-water vessel being reluctantly relinquished by an ailing 'old salt' (or his widow). And go cruising after getting getting current on how to sail a keel-boat. Or a cat.

The discouraging words are likely meant to encourage any would-be sailor to get instruction and experience before leaping off the coastal maps. Here be monster - waves.

And there are other hazards that haven't had some government nanny post convenient warning signs around them. Discouraging some wild enthusiasms may save some lives, and keep your name out of the media. Obits, or helicopter rescue stories.

The same cautions apply to mountain climbing... Know your equipment and capabilities before setting that first knuckle.


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## DougSabbag

For whatever value to this open question may I add that there might be a relationship between the increasing obesity of American youth and their hours spent on-line looking at computer screens, vs. the outdoor pursuits / activities like sailing? 

How many hours are Americans spending per week on-line?
Subtract those hours from outdoor activities.

There you have it.


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## chef2sail

DougSabbag said:


> For whatever value to this open question may I add that there might be a relationship between the increasing obesity of American youth and their hours spent on-line looking at computer screens, vs. the outdoor pursuits / activities like sailing?
> 
> How many hours are Americans spending per week on-line?
> Subtract those hours from outdoor activities.
> 
> There you have it.


Thats just plain governmentspeak

I am a fat sailor:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher


----------



## DougSabbag

chef2sail said:


> Thats just plain governmentspeak
> 
> I am a fat sailor:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher


My point wasn't that obesity is a reason not to sail, (though fat sailors seem to be rare around here), my point is that the latest generations are spending a huge amount of their "free time" on-line, instead of any of the outdoor activities our generation(s) learned to enjoy from our youth.

The internet has had a huge impact on increasing waistlines and decreasing physical activities.

When we were kids, we went outside every day after school.
Todays kids aren't even allowed outside without adult supervision, from a fear of pedophiles. So, there is a lot more support for kids going on-line vs. outside.

And if you're not used to enjoying any outdoor activities, where was that initial exposure to sailing going to happen?


----------



## bljones

*Re: Why are there so few young people cruising??*



SailingChance said:


> My girlfriend and I are both giving up 6 figure careers to rebuild an old boat and take the plunge. We are lucky, but we still have to cover our student loans, etc.
> 
> The truth is, college is getting way too expensive, HS prepares you for **** and even though we have more college grads than ever in history, their degrees are costly and worth about as much as the paper they were printed on. Sailing is an expensive hobby. It's even more expensive to sustain long term as a cruiser without a retirement plan or a pension to pay the bills.
> 
> I have to say that I've found it rather troublesome how many "older" sailors poopoo the younger generation of sailors out there or even the idea of young cruisers. Many of the older cruisers on this forum put themselves in a higher class and practically discourage younger sailors with negative remarks and discouraging advice.
> 
> How often do you hear the old salts telling someone who wants to buy a boat and make a go of it - "you can't do that, you need 10 YEARS of sailing experience" or "you dont know what you're getting yourself into" or "you better reconsider..."
> 
> If people on this forum, ESPECIALLY THIS THREAD spent more time encouraging young sailors, volunteering time to teach, or shoot, even offering encouraging words of support, sailing would continue to grow.
> 
> "The ones who come before us will teach us the way forward" :hothead


Okay, in your opinion the reason that there aren't more young sailors cruising is: 
1) High school doesn't teach you anything, college is so expensive, jobs don't pay sh1t and kids have college loans to pay off.

...So, isn't that an even GREATER incentive to go cruising instead of going to college? why go to school to go into debt to get a degree that won't get you a job that will pay off your debt? Go cruising, work light and cheap waiting tables or tending bar or scraping boats to cover your costs as you cruise the coast, then go back to school when the job market and the economy improves, or take some online classes one at a time as you can afford them. Or cruise a season, work a season, go to school a season, repeat. Or a combination. Yeah, it will then take 10 years to graduate instead of 3, but then you also graduate with no debt and you've had fun along the way.

2) Folks who are actually doing it aren't encouraging.

... Do you require a pat on the back and coaxing to do everything? We're talking sailing here, not eating your vegetables. If you want to do it, you do it. I am a big fan of the "go small, go now" approach, because you don't know what tomorrow brings. That's why I have a great deal of respect for jgbrown, chech, and other post-college/in college types here who buck the trend and just plain do it.

As far as the "you can't do that, you need 10 YEARS of sailing experience" or "you dont know what you're getting yourself into" or "you better reconsider..." cliches of caution that abound:
You're right, it can sometimes be a little over the top, but it's not demographic specific- it is experience specific- a novice in his/her 40s gets the same lines here as a novice in his/her 20s

I can't speak for other old salts here, but I invite every nearby, and some not so nearby, newbie to this site and the others I frequent who want to sail to come sail with us for a day or two.
Y'know who has taken me up on that offer? Folks in their 40s, 50s, and 60s.

I hope you stick around. And if you want to get some time on the water, get in touch.


----------



## CarpeAquam

To answer the original question —

I'm only speaking for myself, but here is the reason I'm not cruising. I followed my parents expectations and went to a good college. I currently have over $100k in debt and have to work at least 50 hours a week to pay my bills. I can't afford to live on my own, let alone leave my career to sail the world. Luckily, I do have a great career that I enjoy and am able to sail the lakes here and go on occasional vacations while I work towards my (hopefully early) retirement plan of sailing the world.

Nothing useless about that....


----------



## bljones

LemonHead,
It's good to have a plan.
It's even better not to have excuses.
Keep sailing the lakes and keep on keeping on.


----------



## BrickPearson26

I think a lot of you guys are missing one of the greatest reasons why young people aren't sailing - Lack of exposure. First you have to look at the price of real estate on the water. As it continues to climb, owning property on/near water is becoming more and more prohibitive for families. And when families don't live on/near, then their kids will have less exposure to the water and the experiences that come along with it. When these people who live further from the water do make it out they use "go-fast" boats for three reasons: they are easier to care for, easier to operate, and because of their speed they require less time to "get where you are going", thus they require less time. 
So I cruised for a bit a couple of years ago and more often than not when I talk about cruising with my friends (typically in their 20's) they are surprised because they never even thought that it is feasible/safe/affordable to live on a sailboat. Most people only hear about sailing from the media, and these stories are virtually always about circumnavigations or ship wrecks, neither of which appeal to the vast majority of people.
The only pro I can see to the declining interest in sailing is that it means that over time the value of sailboats will fall, thus making larger boats more affordable to me.


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## CarpeAquam

BrickPearson26 said:


> I think a lot of you guys are missing one of the greatest reasons why young people aren't sailing - Lack of exposure.


I grew up in a lake house and most every vacation I went on was to the ocean. However, my father wasn't interested in the least (and still isn't) in sailing. Boy Scouts is actually where I first learned to sail, and later fell in love with it through their Sea Base program.

If lack of exposure is the problem, I think there is a lot that can be done to encourage sailing though youth organizations, schools, and community programs. Talk to your local boy scout troops, boys and girls clubs, and schools. Host an event and invite them to come sail!

Who else is going to expose others to sailing if the seasoned sailers aren't doing it?


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## caberg

DougSabbag said:


> When we were kids, we went outside every day after school.


Did you also walk uphill both ways? 

I do think you're partly correct about some kids playing too many video games, etc. (Although isn't that the fault of today's parents who used to be those wonderfully wholesome kids you talk about?) It's wrong to lump all of "today's youth" into one giant category, and compare them unfavorably against the "we kids" of yesteryear. Fact is, there are many amazing young folks out in the world doing unbelievable things.


----------



## DougSabbag

LemonHead said:


> To answer the original question -
> 
> I'm only speaking for myself, but here is the reason I'm not cruising. I followed my parents expectations and went to a good college. I currently have over $100k in debt and have to work at least 50 hours a week to pay my bills. I can't afford to live on my own, let alone leave my career to sail the world. Luckily, I do have a great career that I enjoy and am able to sail the lakes here and go on occasional vacations while I work towards my (hopefully early) retirement plan of sailing the world.
> 
> Nothing useless about that....


As long as a sailboat is seen as a luxury instead of simply an alternative choice, it will be pushed aside by many people on a budget.

We have liveaboard neighbors who pay less per year than a standard apartment costs in Boston.

And they all have jobs.

I know of a place that sells repossessed / salvaged boats for whatever you bid for them: Certified Sales Inc - Liquidation Sales 
You can get a nice boat for less than 6 months rent, as long as you're willing to put some work into her.

Happy New Year!


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## DougSabbag

caberg said:


> Did you also walk uphill both ways?
> 
> I do think you're partly correct about some kids playing too many video games, etc. (Although isn't that the fault of today's parents who used to be those wonderfully wholesome kids you talk about?) It's wrong to lump all of "today's youth" into one giant category, and compare them unfavorably against the "we kids" of yesteryear. Fact is, there are many amazing young folks out in the world doing unbelievable things.


I was providing a general average of the situation, not a case by case analysis.

Without any argument there are aberations to any general statements, on pretty much any subject.


----------



## miatapaul

*Re: Why are there so few young people cruising??*



SailingChance said:


> Wow - holy cynics Batman. I think each of these responses is not only misguided, but ignorant and out of context. I am a young soon-to-be cruiser. My girlfriend and I are both giving up 6 figure careers to rebuild an old boat and take the plunge. We are lucky, but we still have to cover our student loans, etc.
> 
> The truth is, college is getting way too expensive, HS prepares you for **** and even though we have more college grads than ever in history, their degrees are costly and worth about as much as the paper they were printed on. Sailing is an expensive hobby. It's even more expensive to sustain long term as a cruiser without a retirement plan or a pension to pay the bills.
> 
> I have to say that I've found it rather troublesome how many "older" sailors poopoo the younger generation of sailors out there or even the idea of young cruisers. Many of the older cruisers on this forum put themselves in a higher class and practically discourage younger sailors with negative remarks and discouraging advice.
> 
> How often do you hear the old salts telling someone who wants to buy a boat and make a go of it - "you can't do that, you need 10 YEARS of sailing experience" or "you dont know what you're getting yourself into" or "you better reconsider..."
> 
> If people on this forum, ESPECIALLY THIS THREAD spent more time encouraging young sailors, volunteering time to teach, or shoot, even offering encouraging words of support, sailing would continue to grow.
> 
> "The ones who come before us will teach us the way forward" :hothead


I disagree about high school not teaching enough to start a career. I think we need to stop thinking college is for everyone. We have created an entire industry of colleges funded by people getting into huge amounts of debit based on the myth that we need to get a degree to do anything. I think many are going to be much better off becoming a plumber or electrician these days than a "mid level manager." The way corporations are structuring pay scales with 1 to3% raises every year, you are falling behind not getting ahead. I know of several friends who started businesses right out of high school and they are doing much better than many of my friends who went to college, including myself. This is also true of my children's friends (now in there 30s) as well. Very few jobs in the tech industry require a college degree. Scores of programmers out there with no degrees. Real money is really in owning your own company, and few colleges teach much that will help with this. Better off with a community college or adult education service taking classes on what you need.

Now there are certain careers that require a degree and more. My youngest two are interested in such degrees. One wants to be an architect, and the other a doctor. Obviously they will need to go to college for that.

I know people who owe over 100,000 in college debit to be teachers, and that is an untenable situation.


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## TomMaine

*Kids today are introduced to sailing the same way their parents(me), were.*

At least that's what I see here on the coast of Maine. Most everyone I know that sails, spent time on the water as young kids. They in turn, if they have kids, take those kids sailing.

And we have always taken friends from families that don't sail. Some of those kids do sail now.

The internet can't be that much of a demon, look how many of us baby boomer parents are online, even many that are off cruising are online for vast amounts of time. 

Reminds me of my grandfather. He would lament my generation(boomers) that were raised on tv. He'd do his complaining from my driveway as he listened to the Yankees on his car radio all day long.

The more things change, they more the look the same to me.


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## hannah2

I'm not so sure about the statement that there are not many young folks cruising. We have met many in their 20's and 30's with and without kids everywhere we have sailed in the world. But I must say there are less cruising in North American waters. But in the S. Pacific, Europe, and in high lats there are plenty enjoying the adventure as only the young can enjoy. And most are New Zealanders, Aussy and European. Some of the young are out looking for surfing adventures in distant lands, others are out cruising enjoying different cultures, playing musical instruments with the many talented cruisers and locals. Seems like most young cruisers love to play music.

I couldn't tell you the percent of young cruisers out there, a guess would be 30 %. When I sailed in the early 70's as a 21 year old there were more of us young sailors in distant lands but there were far fewer people living the dream. 

We love to invite young cruisers aboard and share our food and beer be it in a port or at anchor, they don't always have a lot. They are so full of adventure and great conversation and most important they seem to always to be happy and content in what they are doing. Please invite the young aboard if you are out cruising long range you will enjoy doing so and they will love the invite.


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## travlin-easy

I think, after reading most of the posts in this thread, there are several reasons that youngsters will never be sailors. First and foremost, the vast majority of young people I encounter daily want instant gratification. They seem to want everything immediately, and they think it should not only be fast, but also it should be loud and mindless, somewhat like the music they listen to on their I-Pods and smart phones.

Here in Paradise, with beautiful, turquoise blue waters, incredible sailing opportunities, wonderful, warm weather, palm trees, sugar white sand, etc..., the vast majority of individuals aged 45 or less seem to have their minds stuffed into a tiny electronic device in their hand. I've watched them nearly walk off the end of the pier while texting, they ignore then entire world when that phone vibrates and makes some weird sound, they can no longer have an intelligent conversation with anyone using their vocal chords and minds. Google and Yahoo is their new parents.

If they had a sailboat, or a powerboat, they would be looking for an app that would take control of the boat and steer it through a minefield of other boats, crab pot markers, buoys, etc..., thereby allowing them to text their friends while boating. I see parents completely ignoring their screaming children because they can't get away from their I-Pads, I-Pods and smart phones. Thousands of people are killed every year due to texting while driving. Youngsters can no longer perform simple mathematics without the aid of a calculator, let alone pick up a chart and plot a course to a destination just over the horizon. And, if it takes more than 5 minutes to learn, forget it - to them it's not worth the effort.

The cost of boating, of course, has risen to levels that limit this pastime to those that either have a significant amount of disposable income, or are willing to put forth the time and effort to fix up an old boat and make it sailable. Youngsters, those under 50 years of age, don't usually have a significant amount of discretionary income, and if they do, more often than not they don't have sufficient free time to enjoy the sport of boating.

Just my .02 cents worth.

Cheers from an old man living the dream,

Gary


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## skaterp14

travlineasy said:


> Here in Paradise, with beautiful, turquoise blue waters, incredible sailing opportunities, wonderful, warm weather, palm trees, sugar white sand, etc
> 
> Gary


just got stuck in a day dream here in 29 degree virginia..........


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## CarpeAquam

travlineasy said:


> I think, after reading most of the posts in this thread, there are several reasons that youngsters will never be sailors. First and foremost, the vast majority of young people I encounter daily want instant gratification. They seem to want everything immediately, and they think it should not only be fast, but also it should be loud and mindless, somewhat like the music they listen to on their I-Pods and smart phones.


That's funny... Most of the 40-60 yr olds I hang out with on the lake couldn't understand why I bought a sailboat instead of a ski boat. I'm 25 and not a fan of the loud and mindless. I would guess about half of the sailors on my lake are under 35. Most of them sail racing dinghies here though, so it's not the same comparison. Just something to contrast your generalization.

PS - Sent from my iPad


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## travlin-easy

Notice that I didn't say ALL! I do see some youngsters on Hobie-Cats (they go fast), sailboards (they go faster), Lightnings, and similar sailboats that tend to go much faster than their larger, cruising counterparts that are sailed by old codgers such as myself. They sail for a few hours on Thursday nights at the Havre de Grace races, dock the boat, and pull their I-Pads out of their waterproof cases when the last line is tied. Their next stop is usually at McGregor's for some loud, head-banging rock music with 8-word lyrics. 

I know this stuff can be addictive. When I'm in range of an open internet connection, and anchored or moored for the night, I check the sailnet each night. However, it was damned well relaxing when I was out of range for two weeks while coming down the ICW. I took some neat sunset photos, saw some incredible wildlife, and slept like a baby when the weather was relatively calm. It was really nice.

Good Luck,

Gary


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## shanedennis

I think it is a primarily relative wealth and job security. During the peak of the sailing boom in the early 80s households older than sixty five were ten times wealthier than younger people. Now they are forty seven times wealthier. Jobs are less secure and heavy college debt loads forces many into jobs with relatively poor working conditions and minimal time off (the unions have been marginalised). Young people simply have less time and money to sail. I am forty one, and the only one of seven sailing children fortunate enough to afford (money and time) a cruising sailboat. 

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2


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## bljones

shanedennis said:


> I am forty one,....
> ....Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2


And apparently a member of travlin's 45-or-less, texting-right-off-the-end-of-the-dock demographic.


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## shanedennis

bljones said:


> And apparently a member of travlin's 45-or-less, texting-right-off-the-end-of-the-dock demographic.


 I wish... our boat is hibernating right now.

My parents and grandparents always seemed to have their heads stuck in books and/or newspapers. The static nature of printed material seems a little shallow to younger people with full time high speed internet access. Kind of like comparing AM radio with color TV. 
But sailing will always be timeless and I am glad for that.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2


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## downeast450

Economics and opportunity are huge hurdles here in the North East. 

Down


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## bljones

shanedennis said:


> Kind of like comparing AM radio with color TV.


You're right, reading for pleasure is sadly disappearing, along with the quiet wonder of hearing a staticky Cubs game broadcast on AM radio 500 miles from Chicago. 
I'm too young to be nostalgic, aren't I?


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## shanedennis

Nostalgia is nice but think it sometimes obscures reality.

I grew up in Port Moresby in the 70s and 80s. Watched as thousands transition from a stone age existence to modernity in one generation. No TV stations or even FM radio for me.

Later lived with my maternal grandparents in Brisbane. They were both born to dusty homesteads in outback Australia in 1909 and 1912. They also witnessed enormous change during their long lives.

Don't get me wrong, I empathise with our friend travellin's nostalgia. Just think his concerns are misplaced. I just think more older people are sailing in the US because older people in the US, have most of this country's wealth.

This, like all other things will change. It is no accident Obama got a record youth vote again. Taxes on wealth will continue to go up. Entitlements will be trimmed or means tested. When the wealth is more equally shared with younger generations we will see more of them sailing.

Humans have been sailing since the beginning of time and I don't think we are going to stop now.


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## DougSabbag

travlineasy said:


> I think, after reading most of the posts in this thread, there are several reasons that youngsters will never be sailors. First and foremost, the vast majority of young people I encounter daily want instant gratification. They seem to want everything immediately, and they think it should not only be fast, but also it should be loud and mindless, somewhat like the music they listen to on their I-Pods and smart phones.
> 
> Here in Paradise, with beautiful, turquoise blue waters, incredible sailing opportunities, wonderful, warm weather, palm trees, sugar white sand, etc..., the vast majority of individuals aged 45 or less seem to have their minds stuffed into a tiny electronic device in their hand. I've watched them nearly walk off the end of the pier while texting, they ignore then entire world when that phone vibrates and makes some weird sound, they can no longer have an intelligent conversation with anyone using their vocal chords and minds. Google and Yahoo is their new parents.
> 
> If they had a sailboat, or a powerboat, they would be looking for an app that would take control of the boat and steer it through a minefield of other boats, crab pot markers, buoys, etc..., thereby allowing them to text their friends while boating. I see parents completely ignoring their screaming children because they can't get away from their I-Pads, I-Pods and smart phones. Thousands of people are killed every year due to texting while driving. Youngsters can no longer perform simple mathematics without the aid of a calculator, let alone pick up a chart and plot a course to a destination just over the horizon. And, if it takes more than 5 minutes to learn, forget it - to them it's not worth the effort.
> 
> The cost of boating, of course, has risen to levels that limit this pastime to those that either have a significant amount of disposable income, or are willing to put forth the time and effort to fix up an old boat and make it sailable. Youngsters, those under 50 years of age, don't usually have a significant amount of discretionary income, and if they do, more often than not they don't have sufficient free time to enjoy the sport of boating.
> 
> Just my .02 cents worth.
> 
> Cheers from an old man living the dream,
> 
> Gary


I love this honest review.... Bravo!!! Of course others will rationalize why it is OK to walk off of a pier while looking at your "smart phone"... or why it is OK to tune out the real world when your smart phone vibrates.

Too many times, while dining with my wife in the famous North End of Boston, we see couples who disregard their "date" because their phone rang, and start up an entire conversation with the entity who called them, OR, text them repeatedly, again, DURING their dinner DATE.

So, imagine what a conflict it would be for one of these texting maniacs if they were tacking and their phone vibrated! If they would disregard their beautiful date during dinner, it isn't much of a leap to see them also taking their focus off of the helm to text someone.....

Sure, we are sounding like your grandfather(s) did, so what. Perhaps they and we are correct. Not everyone eschews the wisdom of their elders. And the more we do that, the less we will advance CONSTRUCTIVELY. If you think texting 10000 times a day is an advancement of our society, you are part of the problem.

Fair winds.....


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## DougSabbag

shanedennis said:


> I wish... our boat is hibernating right now.
> 
> My parents and grandparents always seemed to have their heads stuck in books and/or newspapers. The static nature of printed material seems a little shallow to younger people with full time high speed internet access. Kind of like comparing AM radio with color TV.
> But sailing will always be timeless and I am glad for that.
> 
> Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2


Their heads weren't stuck in newspapers while they were on a dinner date.

Debating the value or differences between printed materials and on-line content is not the question. It is the FOCUS of the human being which is being (off topic) discussed.

No argument, there are huge improvements in transmitting data today.
However, it should also be no argument that there are a lot of people who are steering cars into trees, driving the "T" into the next one, and walking into the oncoming cars, because their minds and focus are into that little device in their hand, to an unhealthy level.

Perhaps it is just a side effect of having a new toy. And, maybe we can hope that the children will eventually get tired of their toy(s)....


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## travlin-easy

Shanedennis,

I don't think this has anything to do with Obama's politics, or nostalgia. There's an old saying "stop and take time to smell the roses" that seems appropriate for the current generation of those under age 45. Many of them never see the roses let alone smell them because their daily lives revolve around their I-Phones.

As for the older generation having the majority of the money, yep it's true. They worked all their lives for what they have and sacrificed a lot so their children could get the best eduction and live in the best neighborhood they could afford.

Yeah, I'm one of those rich sailboat owners. I'm sailing around on a 1973 Morgan O.I. that I've been working on for over three years. I'm living on a small Social Security income, still work nearly every day of the week, and at age 72 there's little chance that I'll ever retire because increasing taxes continue to suck down what little income I make as a musician/entertainer/singer.

I worked hard for many, many, many years, scrimped and saved until I could put enough money away to pay cash for this old boat, thus reinforcing my statement about the "Me now" generation that want's instant gratification.

Most of the folks here in Boot Key Harbor are not rich, many still work full time jobs because they have to, and a significant number of them sold everything they owned, homes, cars, etc... in order to live this dream of sailing over distant horizons during the final years of their lives. I've got to know many of these individuals quite well and the vast majority of them didn't get into sailing until they neared age 50 or older. For most, it took that long to save enough money to buy the boat that would fit their cruising dreams.

So, stop, look around you, turn off that smart phone, and take time to smell the roses. Nostalgia and the dark ages can be quite beautiful - just ask those that have lived through them. 

Gary


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## Enigma0

>Perhaps it is just a side effect of having a new toy. And, maybe we can hope that the children will eventually get tired of their toy(s)....<

No, it's more seductive than just having a new toy. The newer electronic devices allow people to enter, or even create, mind-spaces that may be customized to their very own fantasies. 

If someone has problems or worries (and who doesn't?), those multimedia devices allow a user to forget, at least so long as their mind is in that space. It allows them to ignore unpleasing reality, which can be harsh indeed. Not precisely a new thing; recall D&D?


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## shanedennis

travlineasy said:


> ...So, stop, look around you, turn off that smart phone, and take time to smell the roses...


I'll turn my smart phone off when you turn off your computer. Smart phones and iPads have only been around a few years. The decline in recreational sailing started in the late 80s before even before PCs were mainstream.

I'm just sticking up for my generation. I think they are not buying cruising sailboats because they are doing it tougher than the boomers. All the economic and social data backs me up on this. My kid's generation has it even tougher.

Speaking for myself, I was a poor boy and got my first full time job at 15. I worked hard. I saved hard. I own a bluewater cruiser and I use it. Before I bought the bluewater cruiser I travelled five continents by air and land. No shortage of rose smelling... despite the smart phone.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2


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## bljones

Enigma0 said:


> The newer electronic devices allow people to enter, or even create, mind-spaces that may be customized to their very own fantasies.
> 
> If someone has problems or worries (and who doesn't?), those multimedia devices allow a user to forget, at least so long as their mind is in that space. It allows them to ignore unpleasing reality, which can be harsh indeed. Not precisely a new thing; recall D&D?


Oh, I thought it was for weather info, buying gear, getting advice and porn.


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## bljones

shanedennis said:


> I'll turn my smart phone off when you turn off your computer. Smart phones and iPads have only been around a few years. The decline in recreational sailing started in the late 80s before even before PCs were mainstream.
> 
> I'm just sticking up for my generation. I think they are not buying cruising sailboats because they are doing it tougher than the boomers. All the economic and social data backs me up on this. My kid's generation has it even tougher.
> 
> Speaking for myself, I was a poor boy and got my first full time job at 15. I worked hard. I saved hard. I own a bluewater cruiser and I use it. Before I bought the bluewater cruiser I travelled five continents by air and land. No shortage of rose smelling... despite the smart phone.
> 
> Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2


We're of the same generation and it sounds like we have similar experience. Cruising is as hard or easy or as cheap or as expensive as you want to make it. The only difference between those doing it and those who aren't is that those who are doing it wanted to do it bad enough to find a way.
No excuses, no rationalizations, just make like Nike and "just do it." It's when someone buys their own excuses that it is time to admit that they really don't want to, at this moment in time. When they start finding a way, planning, saving and searching, then that's different.
You hit the nail on the head- you saved hard.
One can buy a perfectly acceptable grin generating camp-cruiser for under $3K, and one can go cruising 3-5 weeks a year for years for under $2K/yr.
So, if one decides to make coffee at home instead of hitting Starbucks twice a day, takes a lunch to work instead of buying lunch, figure one saves $15/ day.
In a year of saving with no real sacrifice, You've bought your boat and paid for your first vacation. After that, you're rolling.
By thinking small, keeping our small cruiser and redefining what we thought we "needed" in a boat, and what were really luxuries, we were able to keep living aboard during the season, cruising and enjoying decent rum and wine even in the face of a combined loss of $60K in annual income and multiple job changes thanks to the economic meltdown.
Yep- my wife and I make $60K less annually than we did in 2008. Our income was cut almost in half. We're climbing back out, but it is and was "Whiskeyjack" which allows us to escape the grind, and offered a last ditch refuge- if we finally couldn't make the mortgage, if we finally had more month than money permanently, we still had a place to live.
And we're still sailing.
That is why I have little patience for excuses and rationalizations and "woe is me, you don't know how hard it is..." posts.
Yeah, I do. 
and I'm still sailing.


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## shanedennis

I never said it was impossible... after all I have done it myself... and I am not making excuses for anybody. My point is it is now harder now than it was thirty years ago so their are fewer people willing to make the sacrifices necessary to do go cruising.

Time for me to move on to another thread! Have fun with this discussion.


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## wolfenzee

Aside from the cost our culture has lead people to believe that to succeed in life (the way we are taught success is) unless they lead a static life, staying where they are, doing what they are told.


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## danjarch

I'll give you two really good reasons that young people aren't cruising as much. You can sail for days then pull into the a small town only to find out the main street is covered with chains just like your town. Even when it's not chains it's still not the same as it was thirty years ago. I remember going down to my grand parents on the gulf and we would eat lot's of seafood. It was a treat because growing up in Arkansas we didn't get much seafood. No ocean and all. Now I live just outside of Dallas and there are seafood joints galore. 

So traveling just a state or two away feels about the same as going out for the day then coming back and hitting your favorite restaurant. You can get BBQ in New England or Tacos in Wisconsin. Unless you've got months to sail, it's like you haven't even left your own harbor. Much easier to hop on a plane and fly down to Costa Rica for a real change of scenery, and a cheap vacation, then sail from Virginia up to Rhode Island only to eat at Joe's Crab Shack.

The second reason is that keeping a boat anywhere near the coast is crazy expensive. No 20 year old that doesn't work 80 hours a week can keep a boat with in a days trip to the inter-coastal or open water. It's not the seventies when the boat took some cash but you could find a good anchorage or tie it up for a few bucks. The keys are a prime example. I talked to guys that used to sail down in the 80's and you could get a slip on short notice for $20 a night. Now assuming you can find a slip it hundreds a night. Similar issue with house boat row. At one point there were dozens of house boats tied up along the canal between stock island and Key West. There are none left. EPA killed that party. 

Same goes for new docks. It just about takes an act from the president to get permission to build any new docks. When I was in Hawaii, the boat I worked on moored out just short of a mile. There was an old dock that used to reach out to slighting deeper water that had been used to off load the crew and passengers. About three years before I got there, the company had purchased all the materials to rebuild the dock and tore off all the decking and some of the cross framing. Basically they figured that since they weren't replacing the pilings they didn't have to get any approval. They were wrong. The new decking material had sat for three years, growing weeds up through the piles. We just drove the boat in as far as we could and all the crew and passengers(Juvenile delinquents mostly) would wade in. 

So between paying an arm and a leg to keep a boat anywhere near a good cruising spot, and traveling for days just to eat at the same restaurants and shop at the same brand name store, it's just not that attractive. I would rather sail on the weekends then fly some where truly different for vacation.


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## wolfenzee

as far as keeping a boat....keeping a boat in addition to an house and all the other trappings of modern day life is expensive....but to live on a boat is one of the most cost effective ways to live. It only starts getting expensive when you pay other people to do stuff for you. Even up here, living in a marina, it costs less than it would cost to rent a room (not including utilities). Example slip for a 30' boat + live aboard fee + leash hold tax + environmental fee + power hook up fee = $290/mo, metered power in middle of winter with electric heat $50-60.....you can't find a room and/or house to share here for $350/mo plus utilites.


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## TomMaine

shanedennis said:


> My point is it is now harder now than it was thirty years ago so their are fewer people willing to make the sacrifices necessary to do go cruising.
> discussion.


I agree with that. Plus, I'm not so sure cruising, as a lifestyle, is as popular with young people today as it was 30 years ago.

It was about 20 years ago my wife and I took off down the east coast for a year. That's the closest we ever came to what I think of as cruising. At that time, we were the youngest(early and middle 30's). Young people were NOT cruising then on the east coast. I think Hannah, a world cruiser posted that fact as well. However, he points out cruising is stronger and may be on the rise in other countries(nice to know).

Today, cruising means anything from globe girdling to weekend coastal sailing, to even simply living aboard, depending on who you're talking to. If the current and pretty well entrenched daysailer boat design era is any indicator, cruising may be on a flat line for a while for all age groups. What I consider "cruising" means a lifestyle commitment of at least a sabatical from work, home, shore side life. People are doing that these days, but they're doing it by traveling, going to school abroad, Woofing, etc. Same as cruising to me.

Living aboard is on the rise I think, and that's not a hard trend to understand. Boats are cheap, houses and apartments have been on a steep steady rise for decades(excepting the current blip that's fading). I think you'll see more of the younger generation looking into the liveaboard life style.

Sailing is connected to both cruising and living aboard(sometimes only faintly), but as a recreational pastime, sailing is as alive and well as it's ever been in my lifetime. All the old avenues that get people into it(like my family conduit), are still strong. I'd say locally, sailing clubs introducing youngsters to sailing, are stronger than they were when I was young.

And finally, sailing is part of a new and growing marine industry here in Maine which is boat building(all types and materials) and other maratime vocations. I see more and more kids going to "school" in the marine area. Many start as schooner bums working the many seasonal boats in our area(also a growing industry).


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## wolfenzee

to some it up, the economy is a good excuse, but in reality it is the mindset of our culture....the "free spirits", the sort of people who would be willing to sail of into the tropical sunset can't afford to...to be able to afford to not only takes time, but channels people into the static mindset. 
Marketing has a hand in it too, making us think we "need" a boat with all the gadgets, gizmos and gilhickies. A friend of mine cruised the Pacific single handed in a boat with a single burner camp stove, jerry jug water, bucket head, dysfunctional engine, hand held GPS, no winches, scary old galvanized rigging, sails w/ duct tape patches, lashed tiller self steer, etc....his annual cruising budget was about $2500. The Pardey's said "Go simple, go now"....I have seen alot of people waiting until they had the "perfect boat"....wait too long and never make it away.
Part of my plan in my cruise to the tropics, is to pick up a crew member (early to mid 20ish) I'll take care of everything....he wouldn't have to worry about anything.


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## Capt.aaron

I blame Hippity hop music. Find a person in ther early 20's who does'nt listen to exclusively Hip Hop music. It's all they know. 20 years ago when I was in my early 20's and living aboard/ cruising the Caribbean, we listend to a more organic, music orientated music, Kid's these day's want bling and ho's, not the slow, hard won satisfaction of dancing with nature. Even most of the young sailors of today are on racing circuts or kite boards. Playing at the beach I call it. There are a few young people with a call to the wild and a wander lust, as long as they can get service.


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## Enigma0

Hip-hop and its atonal and unmelodic precursors are symptoms, not causes. The sounds of a generation and an era reflect what's going on in the minds and hearts of those making, and listening to, the sounds. The sounds of this time reveal that what is in those minds and hearts is not by-and-large good.

I blame the cities of man. All sorts of ills arise from urbanization. Right after the Flood, when mankind began to repopulate the Earth, they also began to clump up in what was then the vast well-watered and fertile valley surrounding the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. And build cities around those ziggurats.

Everyone familiar with Moseh knows the rest of the history, so clearly God doesn't approve of cities, and it seems clear He has good reasons.


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## bljones

Capt.aaron said:


> 20 years ago when I was in my early 20's and living aboard/ cruising the Caribbean, we listend to a more organic, music orientated music,


Hang on.
20 years ago, in 1992-1993, Nirvana, Pearl Jam and Stone Temple Pilots ruled the airwaves with angry guitar driven grunge rock -
organic it wasn't. Cruising music it wasn't. 
Meanwhile, hip hop stars Arrested Development had just rolled out their breakthrough album with the organic, melodic largely acoustic hits Tennessee, People Everyday, and Mr. Wendal.

So, maybe all hiphop ain't all the same. and neither is all the music from our youth.

Music is never as we remember it, and it is a reflection of a culture, not the cause of it.

All that being said, some stuff stands the test of time and crosses generations, and I think you might be onto something Capt. A, regarding musical choices and influences. For example, show me a kid listening to Bob Marley and I'll show you a potential cruiser.


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## ChristinaM

Perhaps some of these attitudes are a bit of a deterrent when young 'uns show up at the marina? Bad enough having people me that their children are older than me but now you're going to assume I listen to hip hop? That's just over the line 

It'd be nice for once to have someone assume my boat is mine, not my parents'. Sometimes people assume that what they expect is what they're seeing and it only reinforces their original ideas.

In any generation the majority aren't cruisers, so any assertions about the majority of a generation just aren't relevant. I could say lots of things about most of the boomers that are probably untrue of most of those owning a sailboat. Any comment about "kids these days" has just as much to do with young people who do (or in other circumstances would) own a sailboat.


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## Capt.aaron

When I was cruising as a young man, single handling around the Western Caribbean, no engine, no gadgets, I had a shaved head with a tattoo on it, I wore only a sarong, blaired live jam rock from the dead, grunge from seatle, reggae, hip hop, acid jazz, funk, classical, old timey folk etc. I was the quntessential, "un welcome in our marina" anti yachty, bare bones, boat kid and I loved it! Now, as I prepare the same little sloop, no engine, no gadgets, for an april departure to my house in Guanaja Honduras, I have the same taste in music only even more eclectic with a bit more trip hop in there, same tattoo on my head and same hair cut, I wear cargo shorts now, yet I still blame the bling, ho'ty ho ho culture of crotch rockets and stupid smart phones for this genertions general lack of interest in the organics of true live aboard cruising appeal . Of course there is a small group of 20 somethings out there in to it, but in general with out too much generalization, 20 somethings have different interests than my Gen did, generally speaking. All though kicking around Key West I see quite a few kids out there giving it the old college effort.


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## wolfenzee

The town I live in is very static, either people have reached a level of success in thier life and don't want to go anywhere or they think if they hang around long enough they might succeed.
Of the people I have interviewed as prospective crew, the ones that had the right mindset were usually, surfers, skiers, climbers, etc...people whose life did not revolve around thier job and the trapping of modern day life...people who were more concerned with living life. Rather than achieving some sort of predetermined goal....what we are "supposed" to do with our life.


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## hannah2

I can't believe what I'm reading here and a lot of old geasers should be ashamed of what they are saying. Hey and I'm an old geaser myself at 61 but where are you old farts sailing? The local pond or placid bay on weekends. I think there are more young out sailing than ever before. Just go over to SA forum and look on all the different sites not just the CA forum. Thousands of young people, most of them as sharp as can be and confident, racing in all types of boats and that is what young sailors should be doing. Having a great time going fast and learning how to sail a lot better than a lot of folks that are old farts can sail including myself and I aint bad. 

And all of you folks with all these ideas that its electronics and laziness that they are all going to fall off the pier, what's up with you where is your head at. Your wrong, sorry to say it but you need to get out sailing and see all the young people around the world out having a real life and a great one, some with money and some with little. So what if 99.9 % of the young are clueless to sailing it has always been that way and always will be just like with old fart sailors who will never go anywhere except the pond they live on or down the bay they sail on. That is the way sailing has always been and will always be. 

You should leave the young sailors alone because honestly you have no idea what you are talking about. Everywhere I look there are young families, young women, young men really sailing all over the world and having a lot better time than you are complaining about how the young don't sail because of this or that. This generation of 20 something is the best generation of 20 something I have ever met. 

Sorry a just a little for the rant but get a life and meet some of these sailing young people and enjoy. I swear some of you must be dead or wish you were dead.


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## bljones

and get off her damn lawn!!


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## Lou452

How about we give a young person a chance and a ride? Do you listen to the same music someone 30 years older does ? Do you cook food the same way? You nuke your food in 30 seconds? You have to find common ground or better yet leave the ground behind and go for a sail. Then maybe you can share some food and some tunes. It is all about having a good time. Young or old. I thought ski boats were it. I was shown some real poor hospitality by some old salts and for years would not even come near a sailboat My bad to think all old sailors are crabs. They decided all young folks needed to be treated in a manner they thought best. Smile,Lou


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## Capt.aaron

hannah2 said:


> I can't believe what I'm reading here and a lot of old geasers should be ashamed of what they are saying. Hey and I'm an old geaser myself at 61 but where are you old farts sailing? The local pond or placid bay on weekends. I think there are more young out sailing than ever before. Just go over to SA forum and look on all the different sites not just the CA forum. Thousands of young people, most of them as sharp as can be and confident, racing in all types of boats and that is what young sailors should be doing. Having a great time going fast and learning how to sail a lot better than a lot of folks that are old farts can sail including myself and I aint bad.
> 
> And all of you folks with all these ideas that its electronics and laziness that they are all going to fall off the pier, what's up with you where is your head at. Your wrong, sorry to say it but you need to get out sailing and see all the young people around the world out having a real life and a great one, some with money and some with little. So what if 99.9 % of the young are clueless to sailing it has always been that way and always will be just like with old fart sailors who will never go anywhere except the pond they live on or down the bay they sail on. That is the way sailing has always been and will always be.
> 
> You should leave the young sailors alone because honestly you have no idea what you are talking about. Everywhere I look there are young families, young women, young men really sailing all over the world and having a lot better time than you are complaining about how the young don't sail because of this or that. This generation of 20 something is the best generation of 20 something I have ever met.
> 
> Sorry a just a little for the rant but get a life and meet some of these sailing young people and enjoy. I swear some of you must be dead or wish you were dead.


Well put. That's all true. You live in Hood River, so you are exposed to a much different crowd than say someone from...well, not there. Hood River is speacial and has a special bunch of adventure seeking young people. Key west is a lot like that. I have exposed many young people to the cruising scene, sailed many many backpackers around Central America over the last 20 years and still do. I've inspired countless people to buy their first boat and give it a shot. I was and still am the go to guy in key West when people young and old are looking. (There is a blue water, full keel, double ender at Robbies Marina for 500 bucks if any one is looking) I've brought 20 somethings to 60 somethings between Mexico and the Key's many times and am sailing down with my 72 year old father in law in april. I'm the youngest 42 year old on my block. My neighbor told me to pull my pants up the other day. ( I honestly did'nt have a belt, it was'nt a fashion statement) But I do see, however, a trend in the mass populas of today's young 20 somethings to be less interested in getting out there. It's true the cookie cutter kids never where the ones to get out there and the ones that have and do, are remarkable.


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## funding-the-fun

ChristinaM said:


> Perhaps some of these attitudes are a bit of a deterrent when young 'uns show up at the marina? Bad enough having people me that their children are older than me but now you're going to assume I listen to hip hop? That's just over the line
> 
> It'd be nice for once to have someone assume my boat is mine, not my parents'. Sometimes people assume that what they expect is what they're seeing and it only reinforces their original ideas.
> 
> In any generation the majority aren't cruisers, so any assertions about the majority of a generation just aren't relevant. I could say lots of things about most of the boomers that are probably untrue of most of those owning a sailboat. Any comment about "kids these days" has just as much to do with young people who do (or in other circumstances would) own a sailboat.


An excellent point. By the way, how has your experience with the Hallberg 34 been? Do you live aboard?


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## ChristinaM

funding-the-fun said:


> An excellent point. By the way, how has your experience with the Hallberg 34 been? Do you live aboard?


Not yet. I wouldn't have the HR if I didn't intend to move aboard but it'll be 2-3 years. Canada in the winter is not my idea of a nice place to live on a boat. She's currently under cover on the hard 

So far, I love it though we only bought her in August. Points well, looks pretty, and I can focus on outfitting instead of refitting. It's smaller but younger than most of the other boats we considered. Other than in the galley, I don't notice less space inside but I do notice that it's brighter and newer (even though she's still far from new). I'm happy without bigger sail loads or more mass to handle.

And there's no inverter, so cell phones must be carefully managed so as to not run out of juice while away from the dock. Since I can't leave my iPhone on, I don't have to worry about getting a text message mid-gybe


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## bljones

ChristinaM said:


> It'd be nice for once to have someone assume my boat is mine, not my parents'.


the fact that the assumption is made demonstrates the rarity of the phenomenon.
I think I am seeing a swing in the last few years. With the spate of adolescent circumnavigators that we haven't seen since the early 70s, sailing is now on the radar of the general adolescent population. Anecdotally I have seen the attendance at our local sailing school increase. What I found interesting is how a number of students got into it through the word-of-mouth advertising among non-sailing mommy-grapevine. A kid brought home a brochure from school, mom saw it and her jaw dropped. 
Each two week course was cheaper than daycare. 
She passed the word and suddenly a whole bunch of former non-sailing kids are messing around in Picos.

More kids turned on to sailing now means more young sailors cruising later.


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## ChristinaM

bljones said:


> the fact that the assumption is made demonstrates the rarity of the phenomenon.


I expect the assumption, I'm just surprised that people so often voice it. I'm actually surprised more people don't think the former owners are my parents. Maybe I'll have to start explaining that my dad refuses to buy a keelboat until he blows out a knee wakeboarding.



bljones said:


> I think I am seeing a swing in the last few years. With the spate of adolescent circumnavigators that we haven't seen since the early 70s, sailing is now on the radar of the general adolescent population. Anecdotally I have seen the attendance at our local sailing school increase. What I found interesting is how a number of students got into it through the word-of-mouth advertising among non-sailing mommy-grapevine. A kid brought home a brochure from school, mom saw it and her jaw dropped.
> Each two week course was cheaper than daycare.
> She passed the word and suddenly a whole bunch of former non-sailing kids are messing around in Picos.
> 
> More kids turned on to sailing now means more young sailors cruising later.


I hope this trend continues. I didn't get a lot of exposure to sailing young but I did get enough to know I liked it. That was enough to pick up a Hobie cat and try to figure stuff out. It only took my husband one race in 20-ish footer to want a sailboat. A few weeks on the water, even if it's only one summer of a childhood, can be enough to plant a seed for years later. Of the ten or so kids I remember from those lessons, at least three of us sail now.


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## smackdaddy

Go the beach cats! THAT'S the way to start sailing.


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## Enigma0

youmeandthed said:


> I'm curious on opinions on this one. When Baby boomers were in their 20's there were lots of them in small capable sailboats (some they made themselves) cruising across oceans; but now-a-days the majority of twenty-year olds appear to be utterly useless. I just don't get it, and I'm in my twenties, and cruising.


People mostly rise and attain to match the expectations of those they respect, or of those who have parental charge of them. The parental factor is by far the more important one. Couples both working 60-70 hour weeks, and/or pursuing geechy pleasures during off times and never having any time to serve as a good example and cheerleader allows many a child to lapse into some sort of default lower level.

Several things happened to, or more accurately were done to, the American culture between 1960 and 2000, and little of it was good. Aside from a further emancipation of minorities. Even there the larger culture made space for not an adoption and promulgation of 'white, middle-class, Protestant' values, but of noxious ideas.



youmeandthed said:


> I'm also curious as to where people think the future of the sailing industry is going if there are so few young people involved? Any thoughts?


It will revert to being mostly a pursuit of the wealthy. Bespoke vessels, custom-built ones. Perhaps based on modern factory boat patterns, but with much gravy ladled on. Not entirely however, for a well-built fiberglass vessel can last for many decades and thus can serve as a foundation upon which any enterprising person, young or old, may build a dream and even a life.


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## wolfenzee

With a house, people don't really own them, they just pay the bank for the privilege of being able to say they own piece of dirt when they don't. I own my boat 100% and nothing I owe (or ever will owe) will but that in jeopardy. Similarly there is a distinct line between making a boat a home....when you make it yours, put who you are into it. Getting other people to recognize that you actually own it is not as hard as getting people to recognize and accept that you actually live on and will continue to live on it.
As to the future of the sailing industry it is at mercy of the marketing industry, new boats are out of most peoples reach, at one time the industry figured the "average" sailor was a husband, wife and kids who did coastal cruisng on weekends and stayed in marinas, because the housewife controlled the purse strings the interior was designed accordingly, resulting in comfy, easiliy handled though slow boats. Another trick the marketing industry likes to push is put design features from racing boats on cruising boats (if it is on a racing boat it will make my boat go faster right...unless of course it was actually there to fool the handicapping rules) which ended up with boats that took more work than should be found on a cruising boat. The boat industry (just like the car industry) would rather sell a small number of excessively expensive boats, than try and build boats more people can afford....new boats are for people with more money than sense, you can get a much better boat for alot less used.


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## Donna_F

wolfenzee said:


> With a house, people don't really own them, they just pay the bank for the privilege of being able to say they own piece of dirt when they don't....


Unless, of course, they DO own them, like I own mine along with the dirt it is built on. No mortgage and a deed that says so. Let's be careful about generalizing.


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## ctl411

DRFerron said:


> Unless, of course, they DO own them, like I own mine along with the dirt it is built on. No mortgage and a deed that says so. Let's be careful about generalizing.


Stop paying your taxes and see if you "own" it.


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## Donna_F

ctl411 said:


> Stop paying your taxes and see if you "own" it.


True. But until then, I still own it.


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## wolfenzee

DRFerron said:


> Unless, of course, they DO own them, like I own mine along with the dirt it is built on. No mortgage and a deed that says so. Let's be careful about generalizing.


Sorry.....meant to say "most', I do realize that very few things in life apply to everyone......and unlike some posters I do realize and appreciate, one of the major differences about the boating world is that it gives you a better opportunity to do things your own way....forums are a good source of guidance, though you have to weigh what is said. Some people are knowledgeable and some people are totally clueless but thin they are right and everyone else is wrong. "Those that think they know everything piss off those of us that do"


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## ChristinaM

ctl411 said:


> Stop paying your taxes and see if you "own" it.


Depending on the jurisdiction, all you have to do is be in a area that's need for expanding an airport or running a new highway. They might choose to pay you for it but often they don't have to or they get to define "fair market value". Still, the government's claim doesn't mean you're not better off without a bank involved.

Even beach cats are getting harder to own. Where do you keep it? I've had mine in 2 clubs: 1 was reasonably priced but really too small of a lake for a cat and you can walk across it by August some years. The other just keeps ratcheting up the prices with all of the benefits going to the adjacent marina. It'll cost more than buying an old Hobie 16 every second year soon. I'm lucky enough to have a house but, like with most affordable houses built in the last decade or two, I can't legitimately keep a cat on the front lawn and it's physically impossible to get the trailer into the backyard. Cottage prices are prohibitive so that's not an option unless you pick your parents well. If I store it at a storage facility (also not cheap) and use public ramps, I'll find that half of them have powerlines or trees running right over them. Sure, people who really want to will still find a way but what about people who would've gotten hooked on sailing if they could try it out a little more? You can work around any one of these things but how do you get motivated to do so in the first place?


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## wolfenzee

The only taxes I have to pay are "lease hold" taxes (a tax on slip rental), when I no longer live in a marina I will not have to pay those. As far as income tax......I haven't made enough money to pay income tax in over ten years.


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## Philzy3985

Capt.aaron said:


> I blame Hippity hop music. Find a person in ther early 20's who does'nt listen to exclusively Hip Hop music. It's all they know. 20 years ago when I was in my early 20's and living aboard/ cruising the Caribbean, we listend to a more organic, music orientated music, Kid's these day's want bling and ho's, not the slow, hard won satisfaction of dancing with nature. Even most of the young sailors of today are on racing circuts or kite boards. Playing at the beach I call it. There are a few young people with a call to the wild and a wander lust, as long as they can get service.


This is pretty funny. You're right for about 75% of the population, averaged & depending on where they live and how they were raised. I hold a lot of respect for your comments on sailnet, and I'm being sincere and respectful here. I totally understand why more 40+ aged adults feel this way about younger people (20-30 year olds) these days, we've certainly not proven to be very credible lately..and that's another subject.

In case you would like a refresher that there's still some hope for the 20-30 year old generation of wannabe thugs and cell-phone-clenching video game players, unable to be 100% responsible for their own lives, there are still some people out there who stand out of the norm. In my social circles, my friends listen to hiphop or house, the pop noise on the radio, party until 6am and sleep all day on the weekends. I'm 26 with a full-time career, I can fit in with them when I need to, then I can go hang out with my 66 year old dad (on his boat) and talk about all the culture and music from the 60's, 70's and 80's and have adult conversations about business and life and enjoy that more, as if I was a 60 year old buddy. Finally, when my 20-something friends see that side of me, they're actually kind of jealous, maybe they feel lazy, they're kind of tools of popular marketing. Additionally, I worked two jobs through college to reach a lifestyle of sailing, had a lot of fun and saved enough to buy my sailboat out-right. Now I have chosen to, because I want to, live on it full-time. Buying a house was absolutely out of the picture, I couldn't even decide where I would want to live for that long, but the boat was a perfect and easy choice. Having an asset, and a valued, "old-fashioned" hobby like sailing, definitely gets my friends to open their eyes a little and realize 'maybe it's time to grow up'. I think that the trend over the past 40 years is that teenagers don't match the same timeline and benchmarks of adulthood nowadays that yourself and people in their 40s-60s used to. Marriage happens at an older age, finding a secure job happens at an older age, buying a house happens at an older age, sometimes none of these things even happen to people until they're in their 30s now. So my guess is that picking up the interest of sailing will happen at an older age. Whether people were exposed to it as a kid or not, sometimes it's a passion a person doesn't know is inside of them until they're taken out on a sailboat on a perfect day.

I'm just one example. I haven't yet met someone my age who has the same values as me, but I am confident there's a lot of mature, enthusiastic 20-somethings out there for the sport of sailing. Yet Believe me, I wish there were way more people my age who participated in sailing, too. Maybe it's time for a prime-time reality show about it? (joking)

Hopefully things like the multi-hulls racing in SF (and on TV) this upcoming summer will spark some interest among all the 20-somethings in SF who will initially use it as a reason to day-drink and walk down to the water and if it sparks the sailing bug within them, then all the marketing campaigns and money poured into will eventually be reflected back into the sailing industry.


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## Alex W

wolfenzee: people can own their houses outright or pay a mortgage, just like they can own their boats outright or pay a loan.

I'm 38 which probably doesn't make me count as "young" from the point of view of this thread. However at least half of the friends that I sail with have owned their own boat in their 20s. The ones who own their boats are generally sailing multiple times per month too. A lot of them have well paying jobs, but not all of them do.

There are ways for those who don't have a lot of money to get into sailing, they just don't involve buying their own boats. Students at UW in Seattle can join the sailing club for a very low price and get access to a decent fleet and instruction. Non-students can take sailing classes at CWB and then volunteer to get more free sailing time. Rental here through an outfit like Windworks is a lot cheaper than even moorage if you are only sailing one or two full days per month. I like owning my own boat because I enjoy working on it myself and like being able to take it for long cruises, but if I look at it objectively I see it as a waste of money.

Reading through a few pages of this thread shows all of the worst of sailnet: lots of assumptions, stereotypes, and incorrect information.


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## hannah2

Capt.aaron said:


> Well put. That's all true. You live in Hood River, so you are exposed to a much different crowd than say someone from...well, not there. Hood River is speacial and has a special bunch of adventure seeking young people. Key west is a lot like that. I have exposed many young people to the cruising scene, sailed many many backpackers around Central America over the last 20 years and still do. I've inspired countless people to buy their first boat and give it a shot. I was and still am the go to guy in key West when people young and old are looking. (There is a blue water, full keel, double ender at Robbies Marina for 500 bucks if any one is looking) I've brought 20 somethings to 60 somethings between Mexico and the Key's many times and am sailing down with my 72 year old father in law in april. I'm the youngest 42 year old on my block. My neighbor told me to pull my pants up the other day. ( I honestly did'nt have a belt, it was'nt a fashion statement) But I do see, however, a trend in the mass populas of today's young 20 somethings to be less interested in getting out there. It's true the cookie cutter kids never where the ones to get out there and the ones that have and do, are remarkable.


Capt Aaron, Your quote is well put and like many out there your a mentor. You also understand that out of the many millions of 20 somethings out there there are only so many that are interested in sailing as it has always been.

This thread is about, The future of sailing why are there so few young sailing.

I just don't understand some posters logic that there are few because of the cost of a boat, the economic situation we are in, or the young are preoccupied with phony self gratification. All that is true for sure but it has always been that way. But every 20 or 30 something that is out sailing has found a way around all that one way or another because it is truely what they want to do more than anything else. 
There are many out there all over the world cruising. There are many more sail racing and lots of those will eventually go cruising when they are ready. Go to Marblehead, Hingham, Ma, Long Island sound, Galviston TX, San Fran, San Diego, Hood River, Seattle, every port in Western Europe, NZ and Aussy and you will see the sailing schools are full of teenagers and younger learning to sail. The right few of those will be cruisers some day. 
I could give the blog or website to many young cruisers all over the world sailing and not only sailing but doing wonderful things for poor schools or medical clinics in third world countries. I will give just on example and I hope they don't mind me sharing their website with so many people.
Équipage - Juan Sa Bulan It is French but you can change it to English and just take a look at their photos and see what a great time they are having on their way to Cape Horn. That is what is out there and in my 40 years of sailing I don't see many changes in those who want to really go cruising. Again it does not matter the condition of the world those who really want to go find a way the rest just keep finding reasons not to.

Cheers


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## hannah2

wolfenzee said:


> With a house, people don't really own them, they just pay the bank for the privilege of being able to say they own piece of dirt when they don't. I own my boat 100% and nothing I owe (or ever will owe) will but that in jeopardy. Similarly there is a distinct line between making a boat a home....when you make it yours, put who you are into it. Getting other people to recognize that you actually own it is not as hard as getting people to recognize and accept that you actually live on and will continue to live on it.
> As to the future of the sailing industry it is at mercy of the marketing industry, new boats are out of most peoples reach, at one time the industry figured the "average" sailor was a husband, wife and kids who did coastal cruisng on weekends and stayed in marinas, because the housewife controlled the purse strings the interior was designed accordingly, resulting in comfy, easiliy handled though slow boats. Another trick the marketing industry likes to push is put design features from racing boats on cruising boats (if it is on a racing boat it will make my boat go faster right...unless of course it was actually there to fool the handicapping rules) which ended up with boats that took more work than should be found on a cruising boat. The boat industry (just like the car industry) would rather sell a small number of excessively expensive boats, than try and build boats more people can afford....new boats are for people with more money than sense, you can get a much better boat for alot less used.


Sorry Wolf but I think you are wrong on this. If people buy the types of boats you mention where the wife holds the purse strings so what, that is what people want it has nothing to do with going cruising, they want a boat just like they got. Ya some may talk big about dreaming about going world cruising but that is all all most all of them will ever do, dream. But if they really want to go they give the wife or the husband the ultimatum if that don't work they part ways. You meet cruisers everywhere who really wanted to cruise no matter what it cost and parted the relationship or better yet told the kids they will have to pay for their university education themselves. That is what it really takes for most of us who really want cruise. Great sacrifice yes but that is why as it has always been so few cruising.

As for you can get a better deal buying a used boat over a new boat that is only a N. American idea. Yes if your on a very limited budget yes that can be true, But many middle class folks in Europe, NZ and Aussy are buying good cheep bluewater boats new. They must give up a lot to do so but they are ready to do so. It is sad that N. Americans do not have good information on good boats being built in Europe and other parts of the world. Any brand new bluewater boat from 250K to 500 K US is cheaper than a great bluewater boat cost 25 years ago and by far.  New boats are for people with more money than sense is a truelly strange way to put it. A lot of people around the world are educated in modern design and want a new design that will do exactly what they are looking for. PCP has done such a good job on " interesting boat designs" thread to try and educate those who have the dream of cruising what is out there. The new bluewater boat building in Europe is very healthy. As for 20 something cruising a lot of them are on new boats that cost under 200K some of these twenty somethings worked as Auto body mechanics or street cleaners but they saved, sacrificed and are sailing for real.

Cheers


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## bljones

ctl411 said:


> Stop paying your taxes and see if you "own" it.


Stop paying your dockage or mooring fees and see if you still "own" your boat.
TRANSTAAFL.
You just get to choose the lunch you want to buy, and whether you pay cash.


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## killarney_sailor

Had an interesting experience the other night. There were four cruising boats in Mossel Bay (near Cape Agulhas in South Africa which is pretty serious cruising ground) so we decided to get together for a braai (BBQ). Such social affairs are common for cruisers but this one had a big difference, my wife and I were the only ones over 37 and most were around 30 cruising on modest boats, but now most of the way around the world. Someone made the comment that once you got to Cocos Island, ie committed to crossing the Indian Ocean, the proportion of younger cruisers went up substantially. Younger cruisers typically need to get home before the money runs out. 

BTW we have seen as many young Swedes cruising as all other countries combined,


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## caberg

What's with the apparent alarm about the "future of sailing" and the lack of interest by young people? It's an interesting discussion, but does it really matter to anyone?

Personally, I wouldn't want to see my local waters any more crowded. The less boats the better. For the boats that are out there, young or old folks, doesn't really matter to me, so long as they're not a bunch of a-holes.


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## Yamsailor

caberg said:


> What's with the apparent alarm about the "future of sailing" and the lack of interest by young people? It's an interesting discussion, but does it really matter to anyone?
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't want to see my local waters any more crowded. The less boats the better. For the boats that are out there, young or old folks, doesn't really matter to me, so long as they're not a bunch of a-holes.


If demand for sailing continues to go down, manufacturers will produce less boats. The lifestyle will become only for people like the Liptons and the wealthy.


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## PCP

hannah2 said:


> ... ...
> 
> As for you can get a better deal buying a used boat over a new boat that is only a N. American idea. Yes if your on a very limited budget yes that can be true, But many middle class folks in Europe, NZ and Aussy are buying good cheep bluewater boats new. They must give up a lot to do so but they are ready to do so. It is sad that N. Americans do not have good information on good boats being built in Europe and other parts of the world. Any brand new bluewater boat from 250K to 500 K US is cheaper than a great bluewater boat cost 25 years ago and by far. New boats are for people with more money than sense is a truelly strange way to put it. .... As for 20 something cruising a lot of them are on new boats that cost under 200K some of these twenty somethings worked as Auto body mechanics or street cleaners but they saved, sacrificed and are sailing for real.
> 
> Cheers


Hi,

I guess that what really is important is sailing not cruising.

For cruising, except on holidays and that means 30 days a year more some week ends, it will only be possible when someone retires from work and that means older people.

In what regards sailing the numbers of sailors are growing in Europe. For instance in England between 2005/2006 and 2007/2008 it was register a 22% increase. In France the number of sportive licences between 2004 and 2007 increased every year.

http://asso.ffv.fr/ligue-idf/ligue/plan developpement/PLAN 2009-2012.pdf

http://www.sports.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/statinfo05-06.pdf

Source: Active people survey 2007/2008 sport England.

I have been cruising in Europe every year and I can assure you that there are much more sailingboats on the cruising grounds now than 10 years ago. No doubt about that.

Regarding the sell of sailboats the crisis had effects and there are now less sailboats sold in global numbers but also more big boats (+45ft) sold then before.

Already before the crisis we were seeing an increase in bigger cruising boats and cruisers were already buying mostly boats of 40ft and over.

The market that had an increase (besides the one of bigger boats) is the one of the small transportable cruisers and fast daysailers/racers. Especially fast rewarding and fun boats to sail.

I had a cruising boat before retirement and I can say that does not make any sense, at least in what regards objectivity and money. Marinas are very expensive in Europe and between marina, insurance and boat maintenance the average is about 10000 euros a year. With that money you can charter for a month a new 40ft in the most nice cruising grounds in Europe and if you do that with a friend it only cost you half of that. Anyway while someone is working actively the best one can get are 30 days of holiday and many don't even manage to get that so owning a boat is not a logical thing to do and certainly not in what regards an objective choice.

That's why most Europeans only buy a cruising boat or when they retire or when they are near to retirement. Before they use extensively charting on holidays.

Most when they retire, if they can (and many can, its the savings of a lifetime) will chose a new boat, if not they will chose the more used recent boat they can afford. Nobody wants in that stage of live to lose time fixing a boat or having an old boat. Everybody wants to finally set sail and go cruising even if few will be interested in long voyages but just to enjoy sailing and life. For many that will not mean to sail many days without seeing land without enjoying good meals on a restaurant.

The other option is to have a smaller boat that don't need to be on a marina or a small racing boat. Those numbers are increasing has the sailors that sail them.

Regards

Paulo


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## Enigma0

>You should leave the young sailors alone because honestly you have no idea what you are talking about. Everywhere I look there are young families, young women, young men really sailing all over the world and having a lot better time than you are complaining about how the young don't sail because of this or that. This generation of 20 something is the best generation of 20 something I have ever met.<

The relative few who've actually committed to sailing may well be. 

Yet mourning the current mass of puffy mall-ites in an obscure forum thread is hardly harassment. Ever watch Leno do one of his Jay-walks and interviewing chance-met folk? Most of those Gens XYZ shouldn't be allowed to operate a wheel-barrow, much less vote.

That was a sensible discussive post, PCP. I did bare-boat for years in some very nice locales before committing to a buy.


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## TomMaine

PCP said:


> Hi,
> 
> I guess that what really is important is sailing not cruising.
> 
> For cruising, except on holidays and that means 30 days a year more some week ends, it will only be possible when someone retires from work and that means older people.
> 
> In what regards sailing the numbers of sailors are growing in Europe. For instance in England between 2005/2006 and 2007/2008 it was register a 22% increase. In France the number of sportive licences between 2004 and 2007 increased every year.
> 
> Paulo


This has been a great thread to hear from people sailing around the world, real observations, not assumptions.

I know sailing is alive and well on the coast of New England but it sounds like it's doing even better in other areas.

This complaint that sailing is in trouble due to the latest generation(s) is ludicris but common on the internet and is heard from a few in every generation as it ages.

Cruising may increase here in the states but it could be different than what the classic idea was say, 30 years ago(a new style of voyaging then). It will be interesting to see what happens there. A new generation of cruisers will make their own changes.

But sailing which has been around through all the trends, never a lifestyle for all the masses and never will be, is alive and well as always.


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## Capt.aaron

Capt.aaron said:


> I moved on to my Grand fathers old sail boat when I was 18 because it was affordable housing. It was free. I had it out on the hook and worked in town. It was all I could afford. He had taught me how to use it so I started sailing around to places with a decent anchorage and little town to work in. That was 23 years ago. still have the boat on the hook and I live on when I'm not at sea on other boats. I see a lot of 20 somethings doing the same thing and hope more and more realize there is a surplus of baby boomer boats up for grabs. It's buyers market, look at that 16 year old kid from the other thead, he got one for free.


I revisited my original post on this thread to restate my original philosophy on the subject. I made an off the cuff joke yesterday about hipity hop music with some half truth thrown in to give the humor some weight behind it. That being said, there is a sh!t load of thick hulled, blue water ( by my definition) live aboards out there for under 5 grand. My boat would be hard to sell for more than 3 thousand dollars and is a few used sails away from another trip down south. Needs and wants are individual, for me, the comforts of the gadget boat is something earned through years of bare bones cruising, this way you realize 80% of the crap on the boat is just neat, not necasary. For instance, I have a thick well designed hull with no thru hulls below the water line so I should be able to float through all comers, this is a need. I have a slightly over sized rig and a strong home built rudder, I should be able to get some forward motion and steer to a destination, another need. Then I build from there. A compass makes navigation easier, Water, food, a mast head running light, an aviation style life raft an old wind surf board to paddle around on. I gutted the wire out of my boat and decided this year I'm using head lamps and 2 sticky backed lcd's painted red with nail polish for interior lighting. The only gadget on board that uses the house bank for electricity is the mast head tricolor so a flexi solar pannel matt is all the charging I need. I'm ranting on the how simple it can be, because IMO seperating needs and wants is crucial to the financially challenged youth in order to enable them to get started in the life. My take on bare bones was spawn from desire, handicapped by lack of funds coupled with the knowledege that dudes where doing it 500 years ago with more than I had at the time. K.I.S.S and "go small, go now" are more than just an acronym and mottto, they are actual truths. ...( oh yeah, the VHF, I often forget about this gadget cuz I almost never use it. It's on when I'm off shore and turned low enough hear, but I rarley hear any traffic out there and by the grace of god have never needed to call any body.)


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## Agri

killarney_sailor said:


> BTW we have seen as many young Swedes cruising as all other countries combined,


I've noticed that every Swedish women I've met in the last three years has gone sailing before they met me, and they have all been under the age of 27.

Sent from my GT-P6210 using Tapatalk 2


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## wolfenzee

The best answer I can think of for this question. It is a big ocean out there and the "young people" can not afford to frequent the fancier/more expensive places and are not seen by the people that can. In addition people of different socioeconomic groups move in different circles. Just because you don't see as many young people cruising doesn't mean they are not, it just means they are not cruising where you are. That said the economy and resulting culture also effects the people who are able to cruise (of all ages). As a poor older sailor....I come across quite a few young cruisers...I also watch the rich "yachties" from a distance


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## Enigma0

Wolfenzee et al.,

Between 1950 and 1990-something, getting jobs, casual or committed, was pretty easy for anyone who didn't need to wear sandals in order to count and who could also read a newspaper story and explain it.

At least it was in North America and Europe. Now things are harsh for young and old, unless they have Paragon Credentials from a Harvard or MIT - plus ten years of specially-relevant experience, which they had somehow attained in just the past five years.

Those circles of affluence and non-affluence have always been there. There always were those 'yacht clubs' to which only the 'select' could be admitted. It's just more the case that the 'tourista effect' has closed so many other doors, and the wealthy have gotten so much more so, and more fearful to boot.


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## n8kraft

My wife, young son and I are on our boat getting ready to go. By then I'll be almost 30, but 29 still counts as twenty something.


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## Enigma0

"plan to set sail heading south along the coast from San Diego to Mexico in the summer of 2014. <

Aha. I would recommend bouncing big, after Cabo, down to Mazatlan Bay, and avoiding PV and Acapulco. It's gotten pretty raunchy along that coast. Your mileage may vary.


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## n8kraft

We prefer small towns to big cities but want to experience it all. Hey, we're young and may only get to do this once.


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## Enigma0

Arrr, said the thoughtful pirate. Yee'll hev som women aboard? - he growls, smoothing his 'stache... List'ee, have fun, but pray take thought aforehand. Many wondrous vistas await, yet amongst those sweet roses lurk some bitter thorns.

More to the point, the cities of Mexico have have changed since that foolish 'war on drugs' began. Have you yet read through the pirate threads in this place?


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## n8kraft

I believe the reports from Latitude 38, the West Coast sailing magazine more than sailnet. From their November Edition of letters to the editor, which can be found here:
Latitude 38 Letters - November 2012



> PIRATES IN MEXICO?
> 
> I appreciated your recent editorial response to a letter regarding cruiser safety and Mexico. In that response you wrote, "As we reported last month, we can't recall a case of a violent attack on a cruising boat in Mexico in decades. When we asked our readers last month, they couldn't either. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, we stand ready to be corrected."
> 
> Well, I would like to remind the sailing community of Alameda sailor John Long, who was killed off of the coast of Southern Mexico in '08. And I would encourage the sailing community to read David Vann's moving piece, Last Voyage of the Culin, which is about the incident. It appeared in Outside magazine, which can be found at tinyurl.com/8m6ypmy.
> 
> Perry
> San Francisco
> 
> Perry - We're very sad to hear about the death of John Long, and wish we'd been told about it earlier.
> 
> We'll gladly alert our readers to that incident, and to the article in Outside magazine. But frankly, we hardly know what to make of it, especially when Vann claims that Long "was killed" as opposed to simply having died. After all, Vann's tale not only is colorful, but also seems to be full of exaggerations, embellishments, admitted speculation, and what we find to be questionable conclusions. Speaking as an editor, it seems to us that Outside went hook, line and sinker for a sensationalized bit of writing, assuming few of their readers knew anything about sailing in Mexico.
> 
> Consider, for example, the following paragraph: "The truth may be elusive in other places, but here in Puerto Madero and La Cigüeña, I believe it never actually exists. Even as events occur, they immediately become something else. An outsider can never know anything for certain, and this is partly because we are mythological creatures, born of conquistadores and sitting on our mountain of gold in El Norte. We aren't believable ourselves, even our existence, so we're told stories, and every story is about one thing: money."
> 
> We're pretty open-minded as an editor, but we'd have suspended Vann's poetic license for at least six months for writing stuff like that. Furthermore, it doesn't sound anything like the coast of a country we've visited countless times with our own boats over a period of 30 years.
> 
> Mind you, there is no doubt that Vann knows something about Puerto Madero, for he writes about his misadventures with his own boat there 15 years ago:
> 
> "My sailboat was a 48-ft ketch, just like Long's, and in the late fall of 1997 I hired another captain to deliver her from San Francisco to Panama while I finished a semester of teaching at Stanford. My plan was to pick up the boat in Panama and continue to the British Virgin Islands, where I would run winter charters. This boat, Grendel, was my business and my home.
> 
> "But the captain I'd hired, an accomplished sailor in her thirties, took on some bad diesel in Acapulco, diesel with water in it, and limped into the town of Puerto Madero on a bit of wind. For some reason, she waited a week before calling me. Then the cook took off on another boat for la pura vida in Costa Rica, and took my $2,000 in emergency cash with him."
> 
> It would have been helpful had Vann identified his accomplished female skipper, as it would have allowed us to ask her why she supposedly waited a week to call him about the boat's problems, and generally get her version of the events that took place. Anyway, when Vann got down to his boat in Puerto Madero, things were grim. Really grim:
> 
> "My sailboat was large and broken, tied to the one crumbled chunk of concrete on the shoreline, visited by rats, snakes, begging children, prostitutes, the police, the navy, drunken fishermen, and the crooked port captain's men. At first I tried to have the engine fixed, but a mechanic with a disco shirt, gold chains, and a group of thugs at his shop held the high-pressure injection pump for ransom, demanding $900 instead of $100 for the repair. So I tried a new tack, spending $3,500 to buy a used engine and have it trucked down from California. This engine was stolen before it ever arrived, only to reappear mysteriously months later, a 500-lb hunk of metal dumped on the beach in the middle of the night."
> 
> Nothing but rats, snakes, begging children, prostitutes, the police, the navy, drunken fishermen, and the crooked port captain's men - do tell! We find this description to be just a wee bit dramatic, even for Puerto Madero, which admittedly was for a long time the most corrupt port on the Pacific Coast of Mexico. It's now home to the new Chiapas Marina, which we're told is being run by the much-liked former harbormaster at Huatulco.
> 
> We also find it interesting that in the 35 years we've covered cruising on the Pacific Coast of Mexico, we can't remember anyone - but Vann - using the incendiary word "pirates" in Mexico. Pirates who Vann claims sometimes transport drugs nearly 2,000 miles up the Pacific Coast to California in pangas powered by 115-hp outboards. Boy, their asses must be sore when they get to the States.
> 
> The other thing that gives us pause with regard to the veracity of Vann's speculations was the 78-year-old Long's physical and mental condition at the time of his death. Long is said to have been in such poor physical shape that he could hardly climb the bleachers at baseball games. As for his mental abilities, Vann reported that Long twice left San Francisco and turned north, somehow thinking that Tomales Bay was on the way to Mexico.
> 
> Vann speculates that Long was the victim of an attack by 'pirates'. It's possible. But we're skeptical. Very skeptical.


----------



## wolfenzee

Enigma0 said:


> Wolfenzee et al.,
> 
> Between 1950 and 1990-something, getting jobs, casual or committed, was pretty easy for anyone who didn't need to wear sandals in order to count and who could also read a newspaper story and explain it.
> 
> At least it was in North America and Europe. Now things are harsh for young and old, unless they have Paragon Credentials from a Harvard or MIT - plus ten years of specially-relevant experience, which they had somehow attained in just the past five years.
> 
> Those circles of affluence and non-affluence have always been there. There always were those 'yacht clubs' to which only the 'select' could be admitted. It's just more the case that the 'tourista effect' has closed so many other doors, and the wealthy have gotten so much more so, and more fearful to boot.


Then the thread shouldn't read "why are there so few young people cruising"...but "why are there so few people cruising on shoe string now adays", but the answer to that is self explanatory....there was a fairly extensive thread on Cruiser Forum that addressed that "Cruising on a $500/mo budget"


----------



## wolfenzee

The easiest answer is the economy....economy is always a convinient scape goat....but I'd say the main reason would be cultural (which is in part a result of the economy) , the mindset is not the same anymore, on the whole or culture has become alot more "static", people would rather stay in an uncomfortable situation than venture into the unknown.


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## wolfenzee

One interesting fact about boating is that basically you can cruise with what ever your economic position will allow. Which is why one sailor might have a $15,000 electronic navigation system and another has a $30 used handheld GPS. This applies to everything across the board.
Then you have the sailors that can afford the latest greatest fanciest stuff and realizes they can function quite comfortably on what they have and put the money to better uses. I have a couple of GPS systems, Radar, VHF, SSB, etc all bought really cheap because someone wanted the newest model, I have alot of nice "previously owned" stuff the only problem I can see is cosmetic. 

But marketing leads people to believe that they have to have the fancy new exotically expensive stuff.....which scares away the sailors who could only cruise on a shoestring.


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## miatapaul

wolfenzee said:


> One interesting fact about boating is that basically you can cruise with what ever your economic position will allow. Which is why one sailor might have a $15,000 electronic navigation system and another has a $30 used handheld GPS. This applies to everything across the board.
> Then you have the sailors that can afford the latest greatest fanciest stuff and realizes they can function quite comfortably on what they have and put the money to better uses. I have a couple of GPS systems, Radar, VHF, SSB, etc all bought really cheap because someone wanted the newest model, I have alot of nice "previously owned" stuff the only problem I can see is cosmetic.
> 
> But marketing leads people to believe that they have to have the fancy new exotically expensive stuff.....which scares away the sailors who could only cruise on a shoestring.


One person's electronics budget, is another person's entire boat budget!


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## Enigma0

>and another has a $30 used handheld GPS. This applies to everything across the board.<

I'd rather have a couple or three hand-held AA-battery powered GPS units rather than any single expensive one. A hand-held can be used in a dinghy or ashore in a rented jeep. Plus there's that fall-back factor.

There's a queer 'gear' mentality among Americans that may coincide with that fascination for their grandmother's underthings.


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## Donna_F

Enigma0 said:


> ...
> 
> There's a queer 'gear' mentality among Americans that may coincide with that fascination for their grandmother's underthings.


Huh?


----------



## JonEisberg

wolfenzee said:


> But marketing leads people to believe that they have to have the fancy new exotically expensive stuff.....which scares away the sailors who could only cruise on a shoestring.


Perhaps it's just me, but I'd suggest that any sailor who can't see through today's marketing hype, just may not really belong "out there", anyway... (grin)


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## Lou452

Maybe the young get so little respect. When you go out of the way to help a young person sail You will see a few more sailors. Young people have a lot more choices than ever before it is a good thing they are smarter than ever. It takes time and $ to sail one can only do so much. When I take my dingy out to the park I offer a ride most of the time. I let one young couple 20 somethings take it for a few hours. They seem to be on the way to becoming sailors.They just bought a house. i stay in contact and they can sail from time to time. When they get ready maybe a boat will be next? Lots of boats are just rotting away. I was at a race in West Virginia and met a man that does a kind of habitat for humanity boats. The kid helps fix a boat or two the next one is his/hers fixed up by kids. Small boats, small repair bills. Sunfish and other small craft put back to use. If you want more sailors make them ! Kind regards, Lou


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## wolfenzee

JonEisberg said:


> Perhaps it's just me, but I'd suggest that any sailor who can't see through today's marketing hype, just may not really belong "out there", anyway... (grin)


That hype is what keeps the marine industry alive (the work part is kept alive by people with more money than time).....marketing hype is the foundation of our economy.......there are alot of boaters out there that do not really belong out there.


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## Simon123

Truth is there's plenty of younger sailors out there, I'm one of them, crewed all over the Medt starting at 22 and got my first tiny little cabin boat shortly after getting back to the states. You rarely see them here because this place caters to the "must have a 40 footer with Epirb and 2 liferafts to leave the bay" type cruisers. Why come here and get yelled at about not buying things that I could never afford? 

Go to the crappy marinas or look out in the anchoring fields where the rough looking but serviceable boats hang out and you'll find plenty of us younger types. I only pop up here on cold nights when there's football on and I've got nothing else to do.


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## Enigma0

>queer 'gear' mentality among Americans<



DRFerron said:


> Huh?


I'm primarily referring to the fascination so many have for gadgets. The iPhone5, iPadx, the latest 24MP digital camera with those various accessories, or the most scary-looking firearm with the 50-round magazine - the list goes on and on.

Apparently, re that 'grandma gear' fetish, you've led a sheltered existence? Good if true. But I link 'gear' fetishes with the gadget fascinations; the _phenomenae_ may be more than just a "lure of the 'new' and 'different'," and something deeper psychologically.

Marketing hype hooks into this psychological opening?


----------



## wolfenzee

Enigma0 said:


> >queer 'gear' mentality among Americans<
> 
> I'm primarily referring to the fascination so many have for gadgets. The iPhone5, iPadx, the latest 24MP digital camera with those various accessories, or the most scary-looking firearm with the 50-round magazine - the list goes on and on.
> 
> Apparently, re that 'grandma gear' fetish, you've led a sheltered existence? Good if true. But I link 'gear' fetishes with the gadget fascinations; the _phenomenae_ may be more than just a "lure of the 'new' and 'different'," and something deeper psychologically.
> 
> Marketing hype hooks into this psychological opening?


That gadget fascination falls into the influence of marketing industry hype. There are a number of threads in a couple of forums where I have to defend my use low tech/KISS principle/doing stuff myself etc. People have the attitude that there is something terribly wrong with doing something in a way that you have to think and/or know how things work and/or do it your self or just not have the latest,greatest fanciest etc....
I have an old wooden boat, people can't imagine why I go to all the trouble to varnish....my boat is a piece of artwork, beauty takes work (though not much if you keep up on it, MAINTAIN is the route of the word maintenance.
When I make something I often receive something I haven't figured out is an insult or compliment. People see something really nice I have made and say "Where did you get that" is that because they think I am not capable of such work, or the quality is "professional"

One nice thing about the salesman that convince the people who can afford it that they NEED the lates, greatest, fanciest.....that some really nice stuff goes on the used market for us poor sailors. Example......Radar was one of those things I figured I would get "someday...maybe".......it was waaaay down on my list of priorities. Someone got the latest greatest color display radar w/built in GPS.......he sold his SL-72plus RaYMarine, which he never got around to installing in the first place ..... complete radar, for $125


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## kellysails

wolfenzee said:


> I have an old wooden boat, people can't imagine why I go to all the trouble to varnish


Of coarse you have an old wooden boat, you're from Port Townsend for heaven sake. And I bet dollars to donuts that you also have a beard


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## wolfenzee

|I am not *from* Port Townsend.....actually I have been trying hard to get out of here since I got my boat. I have a wooden boat but am not what I call a "wooden boat snob" There are people who have wooden boats, keep them looking pretty, take them out on sunny days and show them off at boat shows. The boat are pristine and "historically correct". I live aboard and am finishing up getting her ready for extensive passage making. If I continue about my opinions on the culture in this town I might get someones nose out of joint. I have been here long enough, basically lived in the boatyard, to gain the skills and get what I need to get here to the point where I can sail away. 
An no I do not have a beard.


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## jostalli

Why haven't we heard from the OP? I subscribed to his blog feed and he no longer posts anything (hasn't for weeks). Did he lose interest? Quit sailing? Maybe now he has more insight in to how to answer this question.


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## kellysails

Sorry, if I offended you. Port Townsend is an interesting place with a curious wooden boat sub culture. The wooden boat festival is fun. My wife and I did notice that every wooden boat owner that had a boat on display had a beard.


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## wolfenzee

Nah......you didn't offend me. Though the really kewl wooden boat "sub culture" isn't what it used to be and the wooden boat festival has become more of a tourist attraction/money maker. People ask me why I don't put my boat in the wooden boat festival and my response is "I wouldn't pay money so other people can pay money to look at my boat when I can park it between two plastic boats for free (well no more than what I am paying anyway) and they can look at it for free." 
The kewlest funkiest people in the "wooden boat sub culture" don't have anything to do with festival.


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## SchockT

wolfenzee said:


> "I wouldn't pay money so other people can pay money to look at my boat when I can park it between two plastic boats for free (well no more than what I am paying anyway) and they can look at it for free."


Lol! I thought you said you weren't one of those "wooden boat snobs"! Calling fiberglass and composite boats "plastic" is a classic wood-snob dig isn't it?


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## wolfenzee

SchockT said:


> Lol! I thought you said you weren't one of those "wooden boat snobs"! Calling fiberglass and composite boats "plastic" is a classic wood-snob dig isn't it?


"technically" my boat is composite
hull is strip plank (glued and top nailed) finished with figerglass on the outside. 
Also fiberglass, by definition is "Glass reinforced plastic".


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## SchockT

wolfenzee said:


> "technically" my boat is composite
> hull is strip plank (glued and top nailed) finished with figerglass on the outside.
> Also fiberglass, by definition is "Glass reinforced plastic".


Yeah I know, but wooden boat enthusiasts say it with a sneer, and it is meant as a derogatory term where "plastic" implies cheap and flimsy.

just sayin'!


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## wolfenzee

SchockT said:


> Yeah I know, but wooden boat enthusiasts say it with a sneer, and it is meant as a derogatory term where "plastic" implies cheap and flimsy.
> 
> just sayin'!


I wasn't saying it with a sneer, I was saying it in jest.


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## Capt.aaron

wolfenzee said:


> "technically" my boat is composite
> hull is strip plank (glued and top nailed) finished with figerglass on the outside.
> Also fiberglass, by definition is "Glass reinforced plastic".


So actually, you have a boat that was wood, and is now made of rot held together with plastic. Just kidding, I'm sure it's a "kewl Boat" those things turn to worm Sh!t pretty quick in the warmer climates. My boat was made in 1965, I've beefed it up several times with west system epoxy inside and out and has a life span beyond my imagination as I don't think we know how long west system will hold it's integrity. That being said, if , and it seems you do, maintain your boat with the right stuff you should be able to travel far in her. I live and work ( half my life) on an old steel tug, the steel guy's think us "Plastic' or " frozen snot" boats are crazy to go to sea in them. I traveld far and wide for 4 years aboard a fero cement ship that had sailed to Antarctica, so, who know's, if it floats, and floats well, go out and float around on it I say.


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## Enigma0

wolfenzee said:


> That gadget fascination falls into the influence of marketing industry hype.


I was actually hinting to the Dr. that the gadget and 'gear' fetishes may be a kind of unified psychosis. Wonder if anyone has ever done the work to find out if gadget nuts are also peculiar or deviant in other important ways.



wolfenzee said:


> There are a number of threads in a couple of forums where I have to defend my use low tech/KISS principle/doing stuff myself etc. People have the attitude that there is something terribly wrong with doing something in a way that you have to think and/or know how things work and/or do it your self or just not have the latest, greatest fanciest etc...


I'm with you; I really dislike using something without knowing precisely what's in it and how it works. The more 'convenient' something is the greater the likelihood it's doing something you either don't need or is positively dangerous in some way. Like those cell-phone and digital cameras that embed GPS coords...



wolfenzee said:


> I have an old wooden boat, people can't imagine why I go to all the trouble to varnish....my boat is a piece of artwork, beauty takes work (though not much if you keep up on it, MAINTAIN is the route of the word maintenance.


I'm far more relaxed. Polishing and all that takes away from actually using the boat for me. And from socializing. Maybe if one had children and they worked on the boat with you, that would be a good venue for a home-school environment.



wolfenzee said:


> When I make something I often receive something I haven't figured out is an insult or compliment. People see something really nice I have made and say "Where did you get that" is that because they think I am not capable of such work, or the quality is "professional".


Just take it as a compliment. Most urban folk, unless they're another wood-working or wood-boat enthusiast can't really appreciate what they're looking at. Another boater or country person might be acting snide, but then it's probably just envy.



wolfenzee said:


> One nice thing about the salesman that convince the people who can afford it that they NEED the latest, greatest, fanciest.....that some really nice stuff goes on the used market for us poor sailors. Example......Radar was one of those things I figured I would get "someday...maybe".......it was waaaay down on my list of priorities. Someone got the latest greatest color display radar w/built in GPS.......he sold his SL-72plus RaYMarine, which he never got around to installing in the first place ..... complete radar, for $125


Yup. The 'gotta have it' folk fill the second-hand market and stores with some real goodies. And quite a lot of not so good efforts to snare their dollars. You have to study on it, and know what you're looking at.

I hope you didn't/don't encapsulate your wood on the inside. Else that gibe about "rot held together by plastic" might come true. However, the teredoes may find the tiniest cracks or holes into which to bore, so that outside shell. must be perfect.


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## JamesClarke1128

I am a young guy- I am 25, a recent college graduate, and have a decent sales job. I don't have an excess amount of money but I am not in debt over my neck, either. I live in Kentucky- there are plenty of places to sail within three hours of me, but I never knew that until I was actively looking to learn. I took ASA courses because I did not have other handy resources (aside from the library). And now, I don't have many outlets to get on the water. My peers don't participate. I don't have the financial ability to buy a boat. And, despite my knowledge of THEORY on sailing, I have less than 15 hours of experience and don't have a great way of rapidly increasing that. And to think, there are a lot of 20-somethings who would love to get involved....


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## Arjen

SchockT said:


> Lol! I thought you said you weren't one of those "wooden boat snobs"! Calling fiberglass and composite boats "plastic" is a classic wood-snob dig isn't it?


Is it ? I call my own boat plastic.  And hell im happy with my low maintanance plastic boat.


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## hannah2

JamesClarke1128 said:


> I am a young guy- I am 25, a recent college graduate, and have a decent sales job. I don't have an excess amount of money but I am not in debt over my neck, either. I live in Kentucky- there are plenty of places to sail within three hours of me, but I never knew that until I was actively looking to learn. I took ASA courses because I did not have other handy resources (aside from the library). And now, I don't have many outlets to get on the water. My peers don't participate. I don't have the financial ability to buy a boat. And, despite my knowledge of THEORY on sailing, I have less than 15 hours of experience and don't have a great way of rapidly increasing that. And to think, there are a lot of 20-somethings who would love to get involved....


Hey James, See if you can get a job near the ocean if you really want to learn to sail. I like your need though, you are moving in the right direction. Maybe in a year we will give you a working ride from the Caribbean to the Canal you find your way to the Carib. and back from the Panama and the rest would be on us. If you really want to sail you will find a real way to do so and just about screw everything else. 
Good Luck


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## wolfenzee

Capt.aaron said:


> So actually, you have a boat that was wood, and is now made of rot held together with plastic. Just kidding, I'm sure it's a "kewl Boat" those things turn to worm Sh!t pretty quick in the warmer climates. My boat was made in 1965, I've beefed it up several times with west system epoxy inside and out and has a life span beyond my imagination as I don't think we know how long west system will hold it's integrity. That being said, if , and it seems you do, maintain your boat with the right stuff you should be able to travel far in her. I live and work ( half my life) on an old steel tug, the steel guy's think us "Plastic' or " frozen snot" boats are crazy to go to sea in them. I traveld far and wide for 4 years aboard a fero cement ship that had sailed to Antarctica, so, who know's, if it floats, and floats well, go out and float around on it I say.


If you take a carvel plank boat stick it in the water sail it for awhile then cover it with fiberglass to fix the problems you end up with "rot held together with glue". But if in building a strip plank boat you finish it off with fiberglass (as in the case of my boat), you end up with a boat that has the advantages of wood, with out the disadvantages and the advantages of fiberglass with out the disadvantages......plus some of it's own structural advantages. I had my boat out 2 years ago, went over it from stem to stern....sound as a rock (while I was at it I added 3 layers of epoxy barrier coat). 
BTW, the second owner ground off all the polyester based fiberglass and replaced it with fiberglass using epoxy resin. I have seen quite a few piles of fiberglass coated rot in the yard here, all of them were boats that had fiberglass put on "after the fact", not as part of the building process.


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## Capt.aaron

wolfenzee said:


> If you take a carvel plank boat stick it in the water sail it for awhile then cover it with fiberglass to fix the problems you end up with "rot held together with glue". But if in building a strip plank boat you finish it off with fiberglass (as in the case of my boat), you end up with a boat that has the advantages of wood, with out the disadvantages and the advantages of fiberglass with out the disadvantages......plus some of it's own structural advantages. I had my boat out 2 years ago, went over it from stem to stern....sound as a rock (while I was at it I added 3 layers of epoxy barrier coat).
> BTW, the second owner ground off all the polyester based fiberglass and replaced it with fiberglass using epoxy resin. I have seen quite a few piles of fiberglass coated rot in the yard here, all of them were boats that had fiberglass put on "after the fact", not as part of the building process.


True true, My good friend has a cold molded Spray replica, made out of plywood and coverd with glass that is a little brick sh!t house. Man, that dude that stripped the original poly off the planks is probably still itchy. I bet his arms still have a tingling in 'em as well. Love to see a pic. of your boat, sounds like a beaut.


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## wolfenzee

SailNet Community - wolfenzee's Album: S/V Rover


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## Ruby Vee

youmeandthed said:


> Agreed that standards of living are going down, BUt I can afford a way better life here in Panama and can scratch by with some work online.
> 
> I'm thinking it has a lot to do with inflated expectations for a higher than deserved standard of living, hence people who are almost thirty living with their parents, growing up in a zero failure world (which is not a good way to encourage hard work), and the expectation that the world owes them something (careers, high standards of living, education)
> 
> It really isn't a financial thing (I've been on both sides of the fence: student debt, long term unemployment, lacked a real job) and cruising, you have no money either way.
> 
> AMEX came out with a survey showing that young people spend tons of money on travel and luxury goods. It must be a mental thing. The ocean is pretty intimidating, not big snowboard jump intimidating, but kill you if it decides to intimidating. I'm guessing backpacking and all-inclusives are just easier to do.


I have to agree with the higher expectations or expectations for a higher-than-deserved standard of living. Kids move back in after college because they can't afford all the luxuries that Mom and Dad have -- and can't seem to go without, either. Even those kids with jobs don't want to live in a basic apartment with a roommate; they want to live with Dad's 60 inch flat screen TV and the hot and cold running snacks in the refrigerator while the money they earn goes toward designer clothes, shoes and bags and a nice car.

The zero failure world must have been a far more comfortable way to grow up than the way I did -- but it doesn't make for hard workers or cruisers.


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## wolfenzee

If you are thinking about getting into the cruising world and pick up a magazine on the subject you are going to see 6 figure boats, stocked with equally expensive equipment and a matching lifestlye....something that a "young person" (or most of us for that matter) counldn't afford. Now if you hang around boats long enough you can discover that the rich ""yachties" aren't the only people that can cruise, that there is cruising "sub-culture" that live at the other end of the economic ladder. But if the appearances put forward by marketing has dissuaded you from even considering it....


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## peterchech

Ruby Vee said:


> I have to agree with the higher expectations or expectations for a higher-than-deserved standard of living. Kids move back in after college because they can't afford all the luxuries that Mom and Dad have -- and can't seem to go without, either. Even those kids with jobs don't want to live in a basic apartment with a roommate; they want to live with Dad's 60 inch flat screen TV and the hot and cold running snacks in the refrigerator while the money they earn goes toward designer clothes, shoes and bags and a nice car.
> 
> The zero failure world must have been a far more comfortable way to grow up than the way I did -- but it doesn't make for hard workers or cruisers.


I bet you joined sailnet just so you could post this. It's OK we all love talking about ourselves and passing judgment on others, that's why THIS THREAD JUST WON'T DIE 

Be careful with broad generalizations like this b/c guess who's gonna have to pay for your Medicare and Social Security buddy, even as statistically, over-65 year olds tend to vote for tea partiers who want to take away the very benefits they have themselves received and which the young are currently paying for. The attitude of that generation seems to be "we can't afford it... for everyone younger than me that is. And don't you dare try to raise taxes to help pay for my generous benefits!"

You better hope the millions of young people out there aren't as spoiled as you think, they might start voting that way...


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## peterchech

JamesClarke1128 said:


> I am a young guy- I am 25, a recent college graduate, and have a decent sales job. I don't have an excess amount of money but I am not in debt over my neck, either. I live in Kentucky- there are plenty of places to sail within three hours of me, but I never knew that until I was actively looking to learn. I took ASA courses because I did not have other handy resources (aside from the library). And now, I don't have many outlets to get on the water. My peers don't participate. I don't have the financial ability to buy a boat. And, despite my knowledge of THEORY on sailing, I have less than 15 hours of experience and don't have a great way of rapidly increasing that. And to think, there are a lot of 20-somethings who would love to get involved....


Dude get a ride at a local phrf fleet for the wed or thurs night windward/leeward races. It's the best way to apply theory to practice, and cheapest way to get out on the water. Racers are generally pretty friendly on these nights, and if you just show up a little early and ask around you should have little problem catching a ride.


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## Capt.aaron

peterchech said:


> Dude get a ride at a local phrf fleet for the wed or thurs night windward/leeward races. It's the best way to apply theory to practice, and cheapest way to get out on the water. Racers are generally pretty friendly on these nights, and if you just show up a little early and ask around you should have little problem catching a ride.


So THOSE are the nights racers are "generally pretty freindly" ...if I had only known..:laugher


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## jostalli

peterchech said:


> I bet you joined sailnet just so you could post this. It's OK we all love talking about ourselves and passing judgment on others, that's why THIS THREAD JUST WON'T DIE
> 
> Be careful with broad generalizations like this b/c guess who's gonna have to pay for your Medicare and Social Security buddy, even as statistically, over-65 year olds tend to vote for tea partiers who want to take away the very benefits they have themselves received and which the young are currently paying for. The attitude of that generation seems to be "we can't afford it... for everyone younger than me that is. And don't you dare try to raise taxes to help pay for my generous benefits!"
> 
> You better hope the millions of young people out there aren't as spoiled as you think, they might start voting that way...


Peter, I think you need to study before getting upset. Some of these aren't broad generalizations. It's just the way generation Y and Millennials are. I'm a Gen X but my wife is Gen Y. I train groups of new hires so I see some of these issues first hand. Watch this video. We have used this company: w ww.youtube.com/watch?v=5qyE3VN6xbA Why Millennials Act Entitled -- Jason Dorsey on CBS Early Show


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## wolfenzee

If you were just barely squeaking by in life you would not entertain the idea of "sailing off into the tropical sunset" except as a distant dream. If such a miserable life costs so much...something as wonderful as that must be waaaay more expensive right? So people don't even try and explore the possibility, if they did they would find out it is possible to live a better life for less.


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## hannah2

wolfenzee said:


> If you were just barely squeaking by in life you would not entertain the idea of "sailing off into the tropical sunset" except as a distant dream. If such a miserable life costs so much...something as wonderful as that must be waaaay more expensive right? So people don't even try and explore the possibility, if they did they would find out it is possible to live a better life for less.


Again, It has nothing to do with expensive or not expensive. What it has to do with is a rare desire so strong you lay awake at night thinking about it every night. Everyone has big dreams and they are just that big dreams. If it means everything to you to sail to distant lands you will find away. I see the 20 somethings that have done it myself included 40 years ago and that has to be the only goal. They have it planed out and get it done one step at a time and not much else gets done in life. Those who do and don't explore the possibility 99.9% of them do not have the desire it takes.

You have a great boat you are working on, I hope it is being worked on for one thing, to sail to distant lands if that is what you want. If your more interested in sailing it from 2 PM to 4:30 PM on the summer winds of PT back and forth in front of town chances are great you won't make the grade.

It takes so much desire to do it at 20 something but it is being done by a fair amount of them, as many as ever.

Cheers


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## bljones

hannah2 said:


> If it means everything to you to sail to distant lands you will find away. I see the 20 somethings that have done it myself included 40 years ago and that has to be the only goal. They have it planed out and get it done one step at a time and not much else gets done in life. Those who do and don't explore the possibility 99.9% of them do not have the desire it takes.
> 
> It takes so much desire to do it at 20 something but it is being done by a fair amount of them, as many as ever.
> 
> Cheers


Hannah, 
THIS may be the most valid observation in this thread, as it is an opinion backed by both current and (ahem,) historical experience. Some of us, myself included, haven't got the anecdotal experience to be able to accurately view then and now. Well put.


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## Lou452

JamesClarke1128 said:


> I am a young guy- I am 25, a recent college graduate, and have a decent sales job. I don't have an excess amount of money but I am not in debt over my neck, either. I live in Kentucky- there are plenty of places to sail within three hours of me, but I never knew that until I was actively looking to learn. I took ASA courses because I did not have other handy resources (aside from the library). And now, I don't have many outlets to get on the water. My peers don't participate. I don't have the financial ability to buy a boat. And, despite my knowledge of THEORY on sailing, I have less than 15 hours of experience and don't have a great way of rapidly increasing that. And to think, there are a lot of 20-somethings who would love to get involved....


When the cold ends and it warms up we will get ready to go. I am older but young enough. Look on the Cave Run on the web. No one is active in the cold stay in touch I have seen you on the Ky thread here also. Regards, Lou


----------



## TomMaine

hannah2 said:


> It takes so much desire to do it at 20 something but it is being done by a fair amount of them, as many as ever.
> 
> Cheers


True that. If anything, the latest generation of voyagers are pushing the extremes. Cold weather sports, just like sailing, are as popular as ever with young people. However there seems to be a new interest in combining the two, sailing and ice.

I met this boat in Rockport Harbor last winter checking into customs. They'd come in from Canada having just crossed the North Atlantic from Holland, around the first of the year.

The two girls got out and shoveled the docks for their dad, and then built snowmen. They were headed south along the coast and would close their Atlantic circle back in Holland. I asked the dad if he wanted any info on harbors to the south that I may help with. He thanked me but nonchalantly said he was all set, "We've done this before,...."

Those two in the red suits are the current generation of sailors.


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## JonEisberg

hannah2 said:


> Again, It has nothing to do with expensive or not expensive. What it has to do with is a rare desire so strong you lay awake at night thinking about it every night. Everyone has big dreams and they are just that big dreams. If it means everything to you to sail to distant lands you will find away. I see the 20 somethings that have done it myself included 40 years ago and that has to be the only goal. They have it planed out and get it done one step at a time and not much else gets done in life. Those who do and don't explore the possibility 99.9% of them do not have the desire it takes.
> 
> You have a great boat you are working on, I hope it is being worked on for one thing, to sail to distant lands if that is what you want. If your more interested in sailing it from 2 PM to 4:30 PM on the summer winds of PT back and forth in front of town chances are great you won't make the grade.
> 
> It takes so much desire to do it at 20 something but it is being done by a fair amount of them, as many as ever.
> 
> Cheers


Good points all, but based upon what I've seen up and down the East coast over the past 35 years, I'd have to disagree with your last sentence... If we're talking about young people heading south in modest boats for a winter sabbatical - which so often represents for East coast sailors the beginnings of more extended cruising - IMHO there are definitely fewer people under 30 doing so now, than there were back when I started out in the delivery business...

If you talk to a guy like Jeb Brearey - who has been the dockmaster at Beaufort Town Docks for the past 3 decades - he would agree... Beaufort has always been one of the most popular and welcoming gathering places for cruisers - especially those out there on modest budgets - on the ICW... And, back in the days prior to cruising rallies like the Caribbean 1500, or NARC, it was THE staging area/departure point for boats headed for the islands...

Jeb will tell you that 25 years ago, every October the phone calls would start coming in... Young sailors calling to ask how many boats were gathered at the docks, whether anyone was looking for crew, etc... Or, people would simply arrive by Greyhound (remember those?) with a sea bag, and take their chances... That's all changed now, of course, but Jeb would say he probably hasn't gotten one of those phone calls in at least a dozen years, and quite likely more... Not to mention, I was really struck hanging out with the Caribbean 1500 fleet in Hampton 2 years ago, how few young people were represented among the crews aboard those boats... And, when we stopped in Bermuda, the only crew of youngsters we met - fresh out of college - were sailing a 50' Orion, worth several times the value of my own boat... (grin)

I'd liken it to the sort of changes that have taken place since I was young... For example, during my college years, I hitch-hiked virtually everywhere I travelled, many trips cross-country, and all over the West with a pair of skis... These days, it's simply a different world, virtually no one travels like that anymore... I'm not "blaming" today's young people for their apparent unwillingness to travel in such a fashion anymore, the world has simply changed, is all, doing so is no longer practical...

Sure, there are still a number of young folks "out there", no question, in places like the Florida Keys, in particular... But in a popular cruising ground like the Bahamas, it's rather stunning how much of an Old Farts Central it has become, where one can spend a winter, and count the number of cruisers under 30 they've met on one hand...

Hell, sometimes it seems they're almost as rare as cruisers flying a spinnaker... (grin)


----------



## hannah2

JonEisberg said:


> Good points all, but based upon what I've seen up and down the East coast over the past 35 years, I'd have to disagree with your last sentence... If we're talking about young people heading south in modest boats for a winter sabbatical - which so often represents for East coast sailors the beginnings of more extended cruising - IMHO there are definitely fewer people under 30 doing so now, than there were back when I started out in the delivery business...
> 
> If you talk to a guy like Jeb Brearey - who has been the dockmaster at Beaufort Town Docks for the past 3 decades - he would agree... Beaufort has always been one of the most popular and welcoming gathering places for cruisers - especially those out there on modest budgets - on the ICW... And, back in the days prior to cruising rallies like the Caribbean 1500, or NARC, it was THE staging area/departure point for boats headed for the islands...
> 
> Jeb will tell you that 25 years ago, every October the phone calls would start coming in... Young sailors calling to ask how many boats were gathered at the docks, whether anyone was looking for crew, etc... Or, people would simply arrive by Greyhound (remember those?) with a sea bag, and take their chances... That's all changed now, of course, but Jeb would say he probably hasn't gotten one of those phone calls in at least a dozen years, and quite likely more... Not to mention, I was really struck hanging out with the Caribbean 1500 fleet in Hampton 2 years ago, how few young people were represented among the crews aboard those boats... And, when we stopped in Bermuda, the only crew of youngsters we met - fresh out of college - were sailing a 50' Orion, worth several times the value of my own boat... (grin)
> 
> I'd liken it to the sort of changes that have taken place since I was young... For example, during my college years, I hitch-hiked virtually everywhere I travelled, many trips cross-country, and all over the West with a pair of skis... These days, it's simply a different world, virtually no one travels like that anymore... I'm not "blaming" today's young people for their apparent unwillingness to travel in such a fashion anymore, the world has simply changed, is all, doing so is no longer practical...
> 
> Sure, there are still a number of young folks "out there", no question, in places like the Florida Keys, in particular... But in a popular cruising ground like the Bahamas, it's rather stunning how much of an Old Farts Central it has become, where one can spend a winter, and count the number of cruisers under 30 they've met on one hand...
> 
> Hell, sometimes it seems they're almost as rare as cruisers flying a spinnaker... (grin)


Jon, I hear what you are saying, but. As I have said before in earlier posts "that there are less American 20 something sailors now cruising to far off places but throughout the world there are many European, Kiwi's and Aussies sailing everywhere and there is still a fair bit of N. Americans too. You can't just look in your own area of the world if you want an idea who is out there. Now that is the American way I admit, we are very closed in our thinking.

Another thing I like to say, I love this old farts central BS about old farts out cruising. When you are out sailing around the world no one but the Bumfuzzels talk that way. Out there we are all one community, young and old we help each other, we share and we all hang out and drink together.

There is always excuses for every situation one can think of. Some just want to dream to the end of their time.


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## hannah2

TomMaine said:


> True that. If anything, the latest generation of voyagers are pushing the extremes. Cold weather sports, just like sailing, are as popular as ever with young people. However there seems to be a new interest in combining the two, sailing and ice.
> 
> I met this boat in Rockport Harbor last winter checking into customs. They'd come in from Canada having just crossed the North Atlantic from Holland, around the first of the year.
> 
> The two girls got out and shoveled the docks for their dad, and then built snowmen. They were headed south along the coast and would close their Atlantic circle back in Holland. I asked the dad if he wanted any info on harbors to the south that I may help with. He thanked me but nonchalantly said he was all set, "We've done this before,...."
> 
> Those two in the red suits are the current generation of sailors.


Exactly Tom,

This is going on all over the world and there is as much of it as I ever can remember maybe more. 
I have to admit those Danish sailors shoveling docks have more you know what than I do. I promise you those two girls will be world leaders some day.

Thanks for the great pic.


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## LauderBoy

jostalli said:


> Peter, I think you need to study before getting upset. Some of these aren't broad generalizations. It's just the way generation Y and Millennials are. I'm a Gen X but my wife is Gen Y. I train groups of new hires so I see some of these issues first hand. Watch this video. We have used this company: w ww.youtube.com/watch?v=5qyE3VN6xbA Why Millennials Act Entitled -- Jason Dorsey on CBS Early Show


It's a bit more complex than that. If anyone is willing to sit through a full hour, Elizabeth Warren does a fantastic job describing what's been happening to the middle class from the 70's up to today. 




But to summarize some, in the 70's durable goods(TVs, fridges, sofas) cost a lot more but people had far fewer month to month expenses(insurance, housing, debt). So back then budgets were far easier to be flexible with.

Today people are pretty much locked into month to month expenses with no flexibility. Most simply can't cut anything back in order to take time off and sail away to someplace.


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## hannah2

LauderBoy said:


> It's a bit more complex than that. If anyone is willing to sit through a full hour, Elizabeth Warren does a fantastic job describing what's been happening to the middle class from the 70's up to today. The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class - YouTube
> 
> But to summarize some, in the 70's durable goods(TVs, fridges, sofas) cost a lot more but people had far fewer month to month expenses(insurance, housing, debt). So back then budgets were far easier to be flexible with.
> 
> Today people are pretty much locked into month to month expenses with no flexibility. Most simply can't cut anything back in order to take time off and sail away to someplace.


That last paragraph has nothing to do with young people out sailing or anyone for that matter. If your locked into month to month payments and your thinking about sailing around the world you aint going to make it and you probably never intended to set sail in the first place, you were just kidding yourself.

If your wife or spouse is not interested in sailing all over the world then you better divorce that person or your dream of sailing off into the sunset was just a bunch of nothing.

If your kids are not interested you are in big trouble, give up the dream or make the kids go screaming and kicking.

If you are 20 something and your partner is not so interested get rid of them that should be easy at 20 something.

You got to be true to your dream and your goal. That is why there are so few anybody sailing around the world or climbing Everest or surfing 50 foot waves.

So if your locked into month to month payments chances are you were just not cut out to sail all over the world.

Here are some 20 and 30 something singles and families that I know cruising right now. I know many more but most do not have an interest in having a blog or website.

www.voilememagazine.com/ please scroll down three articles in this magazine and you will see their vid. This young family is doing sea trials in their new Boreal. They are getting ready to sail the world.

www.voyaboreal.com This family is about to head for the south polar regions last I checked they were in the Fauklands.

Équipage - Juan Sa Bulan Again young single 20 somethings having the time of their life. For those who are interested the 3 sites I just gave are sailing expedition boats like we are having built. All these cruisers love cold weather that's why they had their boats built. And believe me if these families didn't have the money to have a new boat built they still would be out there sailing just in a lesser boat. We want our new boat for the atolls of the Caroline's and the jungle rivers of Borneo. We are warm weather freaks. :hothead We leave in June from France.

JasonRose.com » The sailing adventures of Jason Rose and his Down East 32 Cutter Bodhran as they travel together around the world I love this guy and all his young cruising friends. He is an American as are lots of the other young cruisers you see pictured on his site. I tell you this guy and all of these youngsters found a way to do what they are doing. And I know like all of us who cruise we all sacrifice a lot to be out there but that's what we want more than anything else.

Month to month payments is keeping people from putting money into a cruising life style. Please!

I'm not trying to be cruel or cool just trying to tell you it can be done as long as you don't have excuses.

Cheers


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## LauderBoy

hannah2 said:


> You got to be true to your dream and your goal.


Most people's dream and goals are what society has told them should be their dreams and goals since they were toddlers. In the 70's those dreams didn't come attached to large monthly payments. This meant people could skip out and go on a cruise from time to time.

Today a 20 something that wants to raise a family: you're a bad parent if you don't send your kids to pre-school(that's $$). Houses in good school districts are big $$. Health insurance so you don't bankrupt the family if you get sick is big $$(and even then you're not safe). That college education so you have a decent job comes attached with big loans.

The average "trying to be responsible" adult is getting hit with a lot more of their take home pay just to stay afloat than people were 30 years ago.

Now that doesn't mean that *are* being more responsible. It's just that everyone has told them "this is the route you need to take". I think at some point we might see another generation come along that ends up bucking the trend.


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## TomMaine

JonEisberg said:


> Good points all, but based upon what I've seen up and down the East coast over the past 35 years, I'd have to disagree with your last sentence... If we're talking about young people heading south in modest boats for a winter sabbatical - which so often represents for East coast sailors the beginnings of more extended cruising - IMHO there are definitely fewer people under 30 doing so now, than there were back when I started out in the delivery business...
> 
> I'd liken it to the sort of changes that have taken place since I was young... For example, during my college years, I hitch-hiked virtually everywhere I travelled, many trips cross-country, and all over the West with a pair of skis... These days, it's simply a different world, virtually no one travels like that anymore... I'm not "blaming" today's young people for their apparent unwillingness to travel in such a fashion anymore, the world has simply changed, is all, doing so is no longer practical...


Hi Jon, it's fascinating to hear how some have seen a drop in young sailors, especially on the East coast. We've only been down a couple times but both trips were in our 30's, 20 years ago.

I only recall one boat of 20 somethings on both those trips. A great group of young guys on a college sabatical on one of their dads boats. By and large, we met casually, tons of boats(it's like a wagon train,...), and we were on the younger side.

Then I recalled, my friend Charlie Wing wrote a funky little book, "The Liveaboard Report" based on interviews of "Snowbirds" traveling on the east coast and Bahamas.

Charlie interviewed near a hundred boats on the east coast(he loves doing interviews), over a few years, and I looked up his age percentages for the late 80's.

Of males, he found less than 2% were 20-29 yrs(twenty somethings). The bulk of males were between 40 and 70 year olds.

Females were a little different. 5% were "twenty somethings", and the bulk were 30 to 39 and the percent declined from there. Still, the average was around 50.

Oh, and the average length on deck 30 years ago of the boats he interviewed, was 37 feet.


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## hannah2

LauderBoy said:


> Most people's dream and goals are what society has told them should be their dreams and goals since they were toddlers. In the 70's those dreams didn't come attached to large monthly payments. This meant people could skip out and go on a cruise from time to time.
> 
> Today a 20 something that wants to raise a family: you're a bad parent if you don't send your kids to pre-school(that's $$). Houses in good school districts are big $$. Health insurance so you don't bankrupt the family if you get sick is big $$(and even then you're not safe). That college education so you have a decent job comes attached with big loans.
> 
> The average "trying to be responsible" adult is getting hit with a lot more of their take home pay just to stay afloat than people were 30 years ago.
> 
> Now that doesn't mean that *are* being more responsible. It's just that everyone has told them "this is the route you need to take". I think at some point we might see another generation come along that ends up bucking the trend.


I guess I'm not very good at getting my point across, sorry about that.

Every generation has been told to do all the things you mention. 99.9% of the people around the world follow those directions, that advice. But a tiny amount of people do not and that group includes people sailing all over the world to far of places. If you bite for that lousy excuse about "being more responsible" or "This is the route you need to take" then why would you want to think you have much of a chance of world cruising in your 20's and 30's. Remember cruising is not for those 99.9 %. But you may need to play the game the 99.9% live by in order to cruise. I didn't rob banks to do it I used the system right from the begining like most world cruisers do. Just don't ever let the system overwhelm you, always be alert and make the needed corrections, focus on your desire 1st everything else is 2nd.

Also you don't just go cruising from time to time. You can go sailing from time to time, take a month off once in a while but that is sailing. And the OP wanted to know why few younger people were not cruising. To cruise takes huge amounts of time to get ready for the adventure. You just don't get up and go for as little as 6 months or one year or more which is my definition of cruising compared to sailing.

There is nothing wrong with just enjoying sailing. Sailing on weekends with the family or wife or partner all of that is wonderful. More folks on the internet should worry about getting the time to do just that. They should also understand if they are all tied up in a normal life they are best to try and enjoy that and not make excuses about what the world tells me I need to be like or the economy is bad and why they are not out world cruising because of it.

It is really hard to do what I and others are trying to get across. I am spending 4 to 6 hours a day trying to get ready for our next adventure of 5 to 6 years. We will have little oppertunity to watch the grand kids grow up, that is not easy, we own a beautiful house we just built we will not be in it again for all those years. Many of my elder family will die in the time we are gone, should I stay home and help take care of them and go to their funerals. I guess I could but hell life is not a practice run it is the real thing, I'd rather go to hell if it means that I was able to go cruising instead. If your 20 something or 30 something in some ways its harder for you to do but in some ways its easier, figure it out if you really want to go cruising.


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## TomMaine

I've enjoyed your posts Hannah2. People like you are pretty rare. I agree, cruising and sailing are not necessarily the same thing and I think the definition means different things to different people.

For me, it's a lifestyle change, away from all that is not cruising really. It's a big commitment in how I would approach it. The leaders of the cruising trend that became more popular in the 60's, 70's, seemed closely linked the the Nearing exodus that many took moving "back to the land". 

One of the more amazing things I remember about simply taking a winter off and heading down the coast, was the number of people we met that had taken the "sell up and and sail" route. Quite a few! They had traded in real estate equity to follow the dream nicely set out at the time by the cruising media like Cruising World(good magazine in it's day). These were people in their 40's and up. Some even had families! 

Cruising as many have done, and you are doing right now, is a wonderful way of life. But it's not for everyone, it's a lifestyle very few experience. 

I learned to love to travel by sailboat, for short term, and now do that quite happily here in Maine. I'm not a big fan of living aboard(one winter was fine), at least not on the boats we like to sail in. But we so enjoy the sailing life on the water, sailing is a passion for me. And we like to snowboard here and travel(and we're working full time with 2 in college!). 

My favorite way to travel is with a carry on bag. I love our boat, but it's a bit too much baggage for how we travel these days. 

I'm not sure our kids will want to follow a cruising lifestye(who knows?), but they've traveled far already and have studied abroad. 

As I mentioned earlier, I'm thick in college kids right now(our two in now), and we're just in mid winter break with 3 to 5(friends) staying with us. 

These are the lucky kids(most of us in the US are), the ones able to find some way to be in college. But most of us are not wealthy(you find a way(cruising, college, we always have), yet, I can't think of many of these kids I've gotten to know, that haven't traveled abroad. 

Semesters abroad are the rule now, woofing trips(our daughter studies in Scotland and travels widely for peanuts, woofing, youth hostels) semesters at sea(our son just finished one). Gap years, between years, they take right off and go places around the world. In fact, compared to my age, I would speculate, kids are traveling more today(there I've done it...). 

Thanks for your input, it's nice to hear what you're seeing. I knew sailing was alive and well, I'm glad cruising will continue as well.


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## hannah2

Tom, I've enjoyed your posts also. You have a positive out look toward the young and you really do enjoy sailing from what I can tell. I love your Alberg, my favorite boat that I've owned up until recently was my Rhodes Chesapeake. 32 ft made in Denmark in 1962. I had always kept her even when we owned the Mason44. She was our coastal and weekend cruiser.

What you say about cruising is correct, everyone has different ideas. 

Just this week I had a visit from an old friend who just gave up cruising after 25 years strait and he sailed everywhere in the world. His Knees gave out and now he is flying planes to keep himself busy. I was talking to him about our plans for cruising for the next 5 or 6 years and his first comment was "Oh your going sailing for 5 or 6 years." I knew what he was saying I didn't have to have go into detail. But as you can guess cruising meant something different to him from us.

What I have been saying here is that if you are happy sailing like you do or like Wolfe does in Port Townsend that is great. Sailing is such a great rush of Freedom no matter when or how you do it. 

But also for those I see on this site that torment over big ideas of sailing all over the place and are so far away from ever living that dream. They would be much happier coming to terms like you have to do the stuff that is more important to you, kids in college etc. and still enjoy sailing. You can always go back and pick up on the idea later. But to always have it on your mind and in your dreams can't be good for you if you except the responsibility of other things in life. Remember, sailing all over the world is a total and complete life change and very hard to do for most because of other commitments. At the age of 20 something and 57 to 62 something is the two best times to do world cruising for most who really have the desire to do so.

These types of discussions never come up when your out there sailing do they.

Cheers all.




Cheers


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## Serendipitous

I don't know about the number of sailors in general, but I think the number of young cruisers is going up. We've been out for five months now and we have met plenty of people in the 40 or under crowd out there who have up and left everything behind to go out cruising.

Just going down the ICW so far we've met:

Brian and Stephanie (30 & 29) of s/v Rode Trip, a Westsail 32 who left from Portsmouth, NH in July.

Scott & Kim (41 & 35) of s/v Anthyllide, a 38 ft aluminum origami boat, who left from Detroit, MI in 2005.

Ryan and Tasha (40 & 35) of s/v Hideaway, a Catalina 34 that left from Manhattan, NY, NY in October.

Frank and Yu (30-35? & 30) of s/v Moitessier, a Hans Christian 41 that is being prepped in St. Augustine, FL and will hopefully be leaving in late 2013.

There have been more out there, those are only the ones we've taken time to get to know on a friends basis. We also know another handful of young cruisers that plan on leaving in the next year or two. I think the number of young cruisers/sailors are on the rise, we just have to keep getting the word out there that it can be done, no matter your age bracket or income!


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## wolfenzee

Part of my plan is to find a "young person" who would otherwise not be able to cruise and sign him on as crew, with everything taken care of from my end. Not only would it make my cruising possible, I can give something special to someone...the chance to sail the tropics, with no worries.


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## mad_machine

one of the things I am intending on doing is trying to invest a love of the sea and boats in my niece. For reasons I will not go into, I am the "father figure" to a lovely 12 year old.. who, while doing decent in school, has no true "loves" beyond playing on her computer.

I think if I can get her into boats and even cruising, it will be a boon for everyone.. (hopefully her eventual "one")


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## wolfenzee

The love of the sea is one of the most important things I picked up from the people I respected most growing up.


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## Lou452

Do the twenty somethings have to be cruising to far off lands ? Do they get any credit for unloading a sunfish of the top of the car? Some of the youth do not want to be married in the teen years. They want to finish school and have a degree. Good Ideas. If we live longer do you think they might wait longer to have children and sail off to the islands ? 
Then the same folks say the young want it all right now. How can they win ? You rig the game. The young are smarter faster stronger. When they get old the young will be smarter faster stronger. Thats the way it is. Our job is to be wize Wisdom can not help when you have contempt. The great blessing is most of us reconize the trap and then remember when we were smarter, faster, stronger so we help the young to build wisdom. That is why so many of the postings have been positve. Kind Regards, Lou


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## wolfenzee

It is our society stressing "getting the corner office" and all the other trappings of modern day life, house in the burbs etc....that have changed the priorities of a whole generation....the ones that can't afford to aim that high are just barely squeaking from pay check to pay check in menial jobs....they are too busy surviving to think about "sailing off into the tropical sunset".


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## tashahacker

I can't comment on whether there are fewer young sailors out there as we've just started cruising ourselves (we're on s/v Hideaway), but we've met a lot of young cruisers out there.

I come to the sailing world from the backpacking world, though, and I can definitely say there are fewer young Americans out traveling than, say, Brits and Europeans.

I do think debt has a lot to do with this - Americans carry a LOT more debt from college than other nationalities because virtually all kids take out large loans to go to college, and therefore there is a lot of pressure to go to work right away to pay off that debt. Then when they get into the cycle of working, they build other debts - mortgages, car payments, etc. And this prevents them from taking off and going traveling or cruising.

I was lucky in that I didn't take out any loans for college. Between working and scholarships, I left school carefree to travel and do what I wanted. I didn't realize it at the time, but this in itself was what set me up to live the life I live now. I got used to owning very little and I liked being able to pick up and move to another country at the drop of a hat. Plus I was an English teacher so I could get work anywhere I went. 

Transitioning from backpacking to cruising was very easy for me and my husband because we were already accustomed to moving often and living simply so we could do just that.

I don't know for sure, but my guess is that if more American kids chose not to take out $100,000 in college loans to go to private universities and instead went to state schools for a quarter of the price and/or worked while they went to school, we'd see a lot more young people traveling and cruising in their twenties and thirties.

Just my two cents...

Tasha (Turf to Surf)


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## mad_machine

tashahacker said:


> I don't know for sure, but my guess is that if more American kids chose not to take out $100,000 in college loans to go to private universities and instead went to state schools for a quarter of the price and/or worked while they went to school, we'd see a lot more young people traveling and cruising in their twenties and thirties.
> 
> Just my two cents...
> 
> Tasha (Turf to Surf)


I went to a state college and graduated debt free thanks to the US Military. My father is medically retired out of the Navy and therefore paid for my education as a part of his benefits.

I do agree though. This economy does not help at all either


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## Capt Len

Way back i commented on this thread and and am surprised to see it still alive and topical. We were asking why younger gen isn't coming up the hawse pipe .My sad. I travel each off season to far away and see very few backpackers now. That's been a big change over the years but there is more money now than ever before.Just a matter of priorities , I guess.Here in Canada most young bucks work the oil jobs and make the huge money. This translates into dreams of a bigger house with a family, payments on the last F350 4x plus playments on the current one. or simply putting it up their nose.It all spreads the wealth around.By the way, anybody under 35 or 40 looks like young'ns to me now, but I've reach that waypoint I mentioned . and am ready to pass the belaying pin .Curious ?, see me on u tube Thane sail past.


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## Lou452

I think, I missed the point, I was confused Cruising vs sailing. Reading this with more thought now. I have one question how do we know this is a fact? I take it may be a fact. At any age we tend to think our time is the right time. An age group always thinks they set the pace. Generation____ has the best music. lives life all out like never before or will ever be done. Blinded by the time set they are born into. Why not? it is the only time generation____ will ever know. It had better be the best it is all we have.
My next thought is one that sets off on a long voyage is more apt to be a lone wolf so not very likely to check in right ? Into the blue who is keeping track ? Regards, Lou


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## JonEisberg

tashahacker said:


> I can't comment on whether there are fewer young sailors out there as we've just started cruising ourselves (we're on s/v Hideaway), but we've met a lot of young cruisers out there.
> 
> I come to the sailing world from the backpacking world, though, and I can definitely say there are fewer young Americans out traveling than, say, Brits and Europeans.
> 
> I do think debt has a lot to do with this - Americans carry a LOT more debt from college than other nationalities because virtually all kids take out large loans to go to college, and therefore there is a lot of pressure to go to work right away to pay off that debt. Then when they get into the cycle of working, they build other debts - mortgages, car payments, etc. And this prevents them from taking off and going traveling or cruising.
> 
> I was lucky in that I didn't take out any loans for college. Between working and scholarships, I left school carefree to travel and do what I wanted. I didn't realize it at the time, but this in itself was what set me up to live the life I live now. I got used to owning very little and I liked being able to pick up and move to another country at the drop of a hat. Plus I was an English teacher so I could get work anywhere I went.
> 
> Transitioning from backpacking to cruising was very easy for me and my husband because we were already accustomed to moving often and living simply so we could do just that.
> 
> I don't know for sure, but my guess is that if more American kids chose not to take out $100,000 in college loans to go to private universities and instead went to state schools for a quarter of the price and/or worked while they went to school, we'd see a lot more young people traveling and cruising in their twenties and thirties.
> 
> Just my two cents...
> 
> Tasha (Turf to Surf)


Good post... The comparison to backpacking is very apt, and mirrors my impressions re Americans vs. Euros and others, as well...

5 years ago I spent part of the winter cruising Belize, which is very much on the backpacker itinerary... Here's a group that was traveling on a small charter sailboat, setting up for the night at Tobacco Caye...










Got to meet a lot more during the course of hanging out at Caye Caulker for about 10 days... Very popular spot, lots of hostels and cheap hotels, wonderful, very friendly place...

What was most striking, however, was the small percentages of Americans that were part of the mix... Almost an exclusively European crowd, especially surprising, given how easily reached Belize is from the States...

After departing Belize, my next stop was Isla Mujeres... Go figure, that place was absolutely JAM-PACKED with binge-drinking American college kids on Spring Break... Most staying in big resort hotels in Cancun, and probably putting more on Daddy's VISA card in one week than most of those Euros would have spent over a couple of months in Belize... Quite revealing, if not downright depressing...

Your approach will serve you VERY well out cruising, best of luck to you...


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## mad_machine

well.. I cannot tell you about all americans.. but out of all my friends.. only one wants to hike the appalacian trail before he gets too old (unexpectedly starting a family put those dreams on hold) and the rest... they are scared to death of "roughing it". They do not want to "camp" they refuse to set foot on my "Little boat" and are very much adverse to anything that might be difficult or painful.

I once tried to get my more adventurous friends to go white water rafting. That was a no starter too

I hope my friends are not a good cross section of america


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## wolfenzee

The US is a "sociologically constricted, emotionally constipated, cultural bubble"...just because there aren't many "young people seen cruising here, doesn't mean they aren't cursing other places


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## Razcar

Serendipitous said:


> I think the number of young cruisers/sailors are on the rise, we just have to keep getting the word out there that it can be done, no matter your age bracket or income!


The last 4 years, I would say, has dramatically shifted the perspective of a lot of young people, I would say. Being in my 30s, it became obvious that:
1> The 30 year career, gold watch, retirement life path is no longer anywhere close to guaranteed. Those jobs don't exist anymore, the perks and pensions don't exist anymore. So sacrificing the NOW for LATER, no longer seems like a good deal.

2> The internet changes everything. Money can be made on the move. I've read tons of cruiser blogs of folks who make money while sailing. If you're willing to figure it out, there's a financially viable life afloat or on the move.

Many of my friends and myself included, have decided the better trade-off is the NOW over the LATER. Cut the cable, sell the house, and seek experiences that enhance your life. It may or may not be sailing, but the groundwork is there to boost sailing adoption by young people, and the more I look, the more I find people in their 20s and 30s try their hardest to seek those experiences.


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## wolfenzee

It's gone from seeking a career and retirement to trying to survive with jobs so precious that if you go cruising you might not have a job to come back to. Next step will be where people will say "screw it, I can survive here, might as well just take off in a boat and try my luck somewhere else".


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## Razcar

wolfenzee said:


> It's gone from seeking a career and retirement to trying to survive with jobs so precious that if you go cruising you might not have a job to come back to. Next step will be where people will say "screw it, I can survive here, might as well just take off in a boat and try my luck somewhere else".


That's the thing, there aren't 'jobs' anymore, in the traditional sense. There are really only contracts, that have a beginning and , if you're lucky, a known end which you can plan for. The smart one save up when times are good, a cruise when there are no more contract. When work picks up, they come back and earn some more.

I'm in technology and it's feast and famine like that. You work when there is work, and you 'retire' when it dries up. There will always be work to be done it just looks different than the 9-5er we were promised as college students.


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## hannah2

Let me post a little of what I have noticed in 20 to 30 somethings cruising around the world. I'm not talking about those who can not get away for all the lousy reasons and poor excuses given on this thread.

Most serious young cruisers we have met have worked in high end blue collar jobs and not a degree job, though many have degrees to go along with their trades they have no need to use them.

We have met many over the years who work seasonal on tugs as deck hands, cooks and engine mechanics. They sail as far as they can on what money they have saved then put the boat away in places like New Zealand and go back to work on the tug for 6 months. They then sail for 6 months at a time when not on the tug.

The best job we have seen is marine diesel mechanics that are certified. They always have had work where ever they go be it work on other cruisers boats or as soon as they enter another port there is always work for as long as they like. Usually the companies can get that mechanic a working visa right off the bat for 6 months of work. I have seen this many times over the last 40 years of cruising.

Another great job and in demand is work on the worlds oil rigs. Last time I looked there were over 2000 jobs on rigs around the world at any given time. We once met a solo sailor in his late 20's who if I remember right worked 6 weeks on, 7 days a week, 12 hour shifts for more money than a GP doctor makes. He then had 6 weeks off and flew to his destination of choice in a 1800 mile radius of where his job was, free. About every 2 years he quit the job to sail for 18 more months and still had lots of money left over. My 20 year old son just graduated from a big engine diesel school that cost us about 40 K to put him through it. He has had many offers of jobs like I mentioned above around the world. Like I say there are so many of these jobs that are just right for properly trained 20 somethings 

Others we have met in their 20 and 30's had their own businesses which they sold, took the money and went sailing. One example, we met a Belgium guy who started his own auto body shop and sold it 7 years later, bought a nice 35 foot modern design euro boat which is affordable and off he went to the S. Pacific.

I don't recall many young hi tech people out sailing the world, know of only one lawyer who quit his profession early on built a boat and was off cruising. 

Maybe you wanna be cruisers need to re evaluate your careers. Maybe too many young people screwed up listening to your parents harp on getting a university education. I know the drill we harped for ever for the kid to go to university but now we know he made the right choice of big engine diesel school and can go back to college later if he wants after making lots of money in the next 3 to 7 years. 

Best of luck. 

Cheers


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## Razcar

hannah2 said:


> The best job we have seen is marine diesel mechanics that are certified.
> 
> Cheers


What certification and schools do this? I'm curious if there's a national/international standard cert one can pursue.

Thanks!


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## hannah2

Just google marine diesel schools. There are some on the east coast and some out west. 

Our kid went to Wyotech in Wyoming for big engine diesels. This type of diesel is a bit different from a lot of marine diesels more like you find on rigs and D9 cats, some as big as a small house.

Good luck.


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## wind_magic

I think a lot of it in the USA is that younger people just don't get outside as much. I might be accused of being an "old fart", but .. hey, I'm just not that old, and I would definitely say that there aren't as many young people outside doing things as their used to be. They don't play basketball at the courts, tennis, they don't do pickup touch football games, gone are the nerf footballs, the basketball in every young person's hands, skateboarding, ... how often do you see a gang of young people riding bicycles around where you live ? I believe that I am being objective when I write all of that, young people just don't do as much outdoors. I remember being young, we were all dark tan in the summers, all of us, because we spent so much time outdoors, how often do you see a farmer's tan on a 20 something's arm and neck these days ? Don't tell me they are just using more sun screen! I enjoyed reading the posts in this thread but I don't agree with the posts that say there are just as many American young people outdoors as their ever were, that's not true. Maybe it is true in other countries, but it is not true around where I have lived. That this eventually translates into fewer young adults sailing long distances on boats seems obvious to me.


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## wolfenzee

In searching for a crew to sail to the tropics on my boat, the people that had the right mindset were either surfers, or skiers or rock climbers, etc.....people who DO get out, whose priorities involve enjoying life rather than economically based goals.


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## mad_machine

that is true that young people are not getting out. Their parents have them scared ****less of all the bad things that can happen to them.

My mom has custody of my twelve year old neice. It is scary to think that before mom got her.. the poor girl had never been allowed to play outside


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## TheWollard

I've read a lot, bot not all 45 pages of this discussion. Incredible. 

There are a lot of good points and some lousy opinions of my generation which aren't accurate. Which is as to be expected. I'll feel the same way in 30 years.

Here are a few insights I thought I might share.

20-40 year-olds are learning new things. I've become a potter, welder, bike mechanic, sailor, painter, sculptor, and salesman in the past decade. Every cup in my cupboard and painting on my wall is handmade. I'm not unique. Visit your local farmers market. You'll find the under 40 crowd wants to get dirty, build from scratch. I know people who make their own beer, raise their own chickens, build bicycles and use them as their only mode of transport.

We see sailing as a huge expense. We need mentors.

If you know a young person interested, I recommend you offer to take them cruising. Then the numbers will follow.


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## wolfenzee

If you listen to what marketing says, sailing is a rich man's sport to be done in "6 figure" boats and fitted out with equally pricy gadgets and gizmos. A friend of mine sailed all over the Pacific in a boat he got for free, with a single burner camp stove, gerry jug water, bucket head, hand held GPS, dysfunctional engine, sails held together with duct tape and scary galvanized rigging....the thing is he was able to do it and with an annual cruising budget of $2500/yr. But our culture is controlled by marketing....people no adays are less likely to "think out side the box".


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## mad_machine

you make a good point.. but then look at any of the "extreme sports".. marketing would have you think that if you did not own the latest and greatest tools.. you are going to crash and burn.

I admit that I, myself, own a Carbon Fibre Mountainbike.,, but if I am honest, except for being lighter, it is really no better than the older chromemoly one it replaced (the older bike was stolen, or I would still be riding it)


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## hannah2

I can't say enough how much I have enjoyed this thread. So many different observations on young people today. Seems like everyone has eyes I just wonder how many of us really use them. 

To Wallard, Good on ya. You sound like you are the typical young person that I see. Who gives a damn about playing BB, baseball, football oh ya today is super bowl I didn't forget but I didn't watch. There are millions of you doing great and interesting things, all of you keep up the good work.

Hey and Wolfe, you got to get off your conspiracy thing you got some hangups there. Who gives a damn what advertisers say, let the sheep follow, you just go about doing your business and get your boat ready to go. It's the only way you will stop whining is if you set sail. Oh ya hey you can do it like your friend did it but chances are you won't make it past San Fran like about 95% on that low end budget sailors with true dreams get to. Save a little more and fix your boat up to be clean, seaworthy and safe for everyone's sake who will get to know you. No one out there is a snob or very few are but you don't get a lot of cruising friends if your boat is shat hole. No one wants to get to know you because sure enough they are gonna have come rescue you sometime or another or fix your stinking engine for you. Be interesting to see if you really do it or your all hot air. I'm cheering you on. 

I'm old but so ready to go cruising again, just 5 months before the new boat is ready for sea trials. Today I spent the afternoon going over the charts of the Caroline Islands, ( they aint on the East coast of the USA) I got to say google earth and charts make for a fun afternoon. It was like a wet one but like always it will be a real one for us soon enough. 

Go for it young ones, let all those old ones that don't believe in you continue on like they always have with eyes that don't see much beyond their nose. 

Everyone enjoy watching the super bowluke


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## TomMaine

TheWollard said:


> There are a lot of good points and some lousy opinions of my generation which aren't accurate. Which is as to be expected. I'll feel the same way in 30 years.


I don't think you will feel the same in 30 years. Cynicism, especially the cliche' generational model, is older than baseball. It afflicts some, but not most of us. 

I think you'll do well, whatever you do.


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## SirRedemption

I am one of those sailing youngsters. I got my start however on rental boats that the father of the girl I was dating who had his ASA captains license. During that period I didnt go out on anything smaller than 30 feet.

I am on my 4th sailboat now all of them in the high 20's LOA and all pink slipped owned by me. I actually never put a lido to use for anything other than as a dink.

Money is certainly one issue. Between my girl and I we make a 6 figure income and the upkeep on a 28 footer can be hard. Especially when she didnt come to you in the greatest shape. Another aspect is the learning curve of maintenance, and for some the learning curve of sailing. 

I recall when I purchased my current tub my Columbia I moved her from south San Diego to San Pedro since there isnt a ton of wind going that way I elected to motor most of the way and whew first two days alone at sea. On the third day I was joined by friends for the jaunt from Del Mar to Santa Catalina Island and from there to Wilmington. 

On departure from Wilmington I allowed one of those friends to handle the tiller for awhile and I recall his white knuckling the tiller in blue water keeping it right on point as if it were a precision thing. Truth is on a 27 mile trip you can let the compass wander a bit, not a big deal.

Perception of the learning curve I think is another part. Laziness is another and well lets face it the ocean can smash you to pieces if it feels like it. A far cry from some of the other sports us youngsters partake in. I however cant live without sailing. Some of those most beautiful moments I been witness to were at the helm of my trusty tub.


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## bljones

Welcome aboard, SirRed. Good points about the learning curve(s).


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## SirRedemption

bljones said:


> Welcome aboard, SirRed. Good points about the learning curve(s).


Thank you. It is fast becoming a pleasure to get to know each of you. I expect I will learn a lot from the sailors I am now finding myself in the company of.


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## WindyFly

I for sure need to go back and read the entirety of this thread. Not really being a youngster (I turn 30 at the end of March) but not being old either, all I can say about is my generation definitely has things messed up. Not because of the previous generation, not because of the economy, not because of technology.... but all these things combined. I KNOW that no matter how much I put into social security, 401k, retirement.... is useless unless I actively watch where my money goes, it will be gone before the usual retirement age. The promise I made myself when I left college (that's another story, because I am pretty smart) was that I would "retire" before I was 40. The original plan was to move to the Patagonia region of Chile and run a small scale (and affordable) fishing/snowboarding/rafting B&B/commune. All I've ever wanted out of life was for work to seem less like work. The older I grew the more I realized I have great personal skills, as well as pretty decent business skills, and figure the less you hate your job, the less that "job" seems like work. I would rather guide a drift boat taking people fishing 300+ days a year, before I would sit behind a desk for 225 days a year. When I finally figured out that living on the hook, taking people part time fishing, and working whatever else I could find to put extra money in my pocket (to save for retirement/boat repairs) really satisfied my life goals, I made the decision and that's my goal. The main problem with my generation and subsequent ones is this, we have been told that without a college education we can't make anything of our lives..... This is not true. Some of the more successful people alive right now, either do not have a college education, or at least do not have an education in their field. Not bashing traditional education, but when I went for non-linear film editing (digital) I was required to take a bunch of classes that had absolutely nothing to do with film editing. Not to mention the giant price tag that this endeavor created. After managing a number of outdoor shops, restaurants, and working almost any job you can think of, I know what I do and don't want to do. Most of my generation believes you can't have a happy life without a big house, multiple cars, a big paying job (to take care of what we're told we need, but don't actually need). It really boils down to a matter of need and want, and we've been told what most people want is what we NEED. I'm glad to throw off the shackles of the "WANT" society and realize what I need. Because what I need is piece of mind, an outdoor job instead of sitting behind a computer, and passion for what I do. I hope more people follow their hearts and realize that a $60,000 car is nothing more than a money pit unless that $60,000 doesn't really hurt your wallet.


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## JackandJude

I haven't read all this thread, but would like to encourage every young person to take courage and follow your dream. I am 68, been sailing since a young man of 30 who jumped in over his head and battled to stay afloat. It has never been easy, but I have sailed the world, raised my children afloat, self-educated them in a life experience never excelled. We, my darling lady and I only had one asset until we were over forty. By which time we were quite clever and skilled having done everything ourselves because we never had money even though I have worked long hours.
Somewhere on that magical voyage I became a master of ships. And now that we are older, we play with our eight grandchildren for half of the year, and sail our veteran vessel the other, still venturing to exotic rare places where Nature is supreme. 
Yes, the world has changed. Man has continue to f--k it up seeking his shekels. But there is still adventure out there. There are still memories worth remembering until the last breath is expired.
So where are are you young ones? Haven't you the guts to take a chance on life. Have you been brainwashed into thinking pirates hid behind every headland? Be bold. Be brave, work hard, and above all, be smart. Don't let life slip by.
We run a website to encourage the young and young at heart. How else will we save planet Earth from man's wicked lust for more and more. It will soon be in your hands.


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## wind_magic

JackandJude said:


> How else will we save planet Earth from man's wicked lust for more and more.


Really liked the post above mine except for this one line, had to mention it or I would not have felt right leaving a like on the post.


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## smackdaddy

JackandJude said:


> But there is still adventure out there.


It's this. Nothing but this.

If you're a person, whether young or old, that hungers for adventure - a sailboat, whether luxurious or spartan, is pretty much the best way in the world to go find it.


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## canucksailorguy

My take? It used to be that you could get an inexpensive boat and head out and people just looked over and smiled - "youth", they would say. Today, there's someone there to hassle you wherever you go. 
You virtually cannot anchor freely in Florida - they've set up rules (the Pilot Program in five areas) to force people to anchor where THEY want you to because of the 'problems', ignoring that their problem boaters are druggies and alkies who live in Florida who would otherwise be living in an old junk car. But they call it a boating problem rather than the societal problem it actually is. 
Then you get hassles from cops up and down the east coast - everywhere you go, there's two, three or more police services 'watching' what's going on.
The whole point of going cruising is for 'freedom', and the authorities are taking that away from us. How many times have you been stopped for no reason by - pick one - Homeland Security, USCG, local police, local sherrif, DEA.....I've watched, from a small anchorage, three different police units from three different agencies, all patrolling the same tiny piece of the ICW. It's insanity.
If we, as older adults in decent boats are being harassed and put out by the authorities everywhere, why in blazes would some kid want to put him/herself out for that? Doesn't matter how decent the kid is, if his boat's not up to snuff 110%, other than the USCG, he's going to get hassled just because it's what they do.
Prime example - the potty patrol. Why in blazes do we pay two cops salaries, plus the price of their boat and all the associated costs, to have them check your valves?
Stop the insanity. Then maybe kids will come back out cruising.


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## JackandJude

wind_magic said:


> Really liked the post above mine except for this one line, had to mention it or I would not have felt right leaving a like on the post.


 Agreed, sounds over the top. But it is what is directing the rules of our world. We have to have ways to pay our way. The world is embracing capitalism, which demands more and more buyers for it to work. We advocate a more social structure that puts Earth First, one that increases our attention to population growth, believing over-population is the crux of our problems?

*canucksailorguy* makes valid points. There are far more rules today. Why? Maybe because there is less space between us, less of everything in fact except pollution and more rules.


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## smackdaddy

Well, one thing's for sure...the ocean is a very, very big place.


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## canucksailorguy

> There are far more rules today. Why? Maybe because there is less space between us, less of everything in fact except pollution and more rules.


To be honest, I think there's a philosophy amongst those who seek office that they actually know better than the rest of us how to run the world. How many times - and Jack, I know it happens in Oz too - have politicians forced their way when entire towns or populations made it quite clear that they did NOT want what the politicians were serving? Too many times.
Do they not understand the term 'majority rules' in a democracy?
At the risk of offending those in the legal field here, this is a sickness that lawyers, who make up most of the political class, suffer from. They are A personality people (I thought long and hard before I chose the noun 'people' btw, rather than a more descriptive term) who, when they get into politics, think they know it all and are entitled to force their opinions on others.
Wrong. And damn it all, it's about time they learned that lesson. 
If the people don't want it - don't do it.
End of rant....(sorry)


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## hannah2

Majority is not always right. That is why we have elected officials. But who cares and who cares about the inter coastal waterway. Maybe too many folks took their freedom a little too far and now you have cops everywhere.

But this thread is about the young and why they are not out cruising which is a joke because they are everywhere in the same ratio they were 40 years ago when I started cruising and when jack and Jude started cruising. Half our cruising friends around the world are under 40 and a lot in their 20's.

Just look at the fun these kids are having. Those who want to do it do it. The rest of the human race may dream but no action. Sheep they call them.

Great bunch of young people who had the real balls to find a way.
go to youtube "sailing Russia's far east. PCP just put the vid in interesting sailboats.



Cheers


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## canucksailorguy

I was leery about my last post because it was trending a bit off topic - although I wanted to say why I believed people are being turned away from cruising.
I too have seen a fair number of young'uns out here and they're having a blast. Makes me wish I had done it when I was 22 and had the opportunity. Too me another 25 years to figure it out.


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## Fully Detached

Well in 2.5 years, October 2015 to be precise, the cruising world will have a young family to add to their numbers. We have finally set a date for our departure and I want to shout it out from the roof tops!!!! but I can't. not yet.


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## hannah2

Fully Detached said:


> Well in 2.5 years, October 2015 to be precise, the cruising world will have a young family to add to their numbers. We have finally set a date for our departure and I want to shout it out from the roof tops!!!! but I can't. not yet.


Good for you and your family. Tell us if you can how you managed to go serious cruising at a young age. Tell us how you are preparing your vessel, how you will home school, The entire families preparation. Where you are planing to go. How old are your kids?

Sounds like you are one of the few, most internet cruisers like always will fail because they really are not as interested as they say on forums.

Hey smackdaddy you been around the internet forum thing for a long time, when you going to buy a boat and do it?


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## smackdaddy

hannah2 said:


> Sounds like you are one of the few, most internet cruisers like always will fail because they really are not as interested as they say on forums.
> 
> Hey smackdaddy you been around the internet forum thing for a long time, when you going to buy a boat and do it?


You mean besides the two sailboats I already own (C27 and Spirit 17 cat)? With these and the off-shore racing I do each year - I get a pretty good amount of sailing in.

As for "long-term cruising"...I guess we'll do it when we're ready. I'm in no huge hurry.

Why do you ask?


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## JackandJude

Fully Detached said:


> Well in 2.5 years, October 2015 to be precise, the cruising world will have a young family to add to their numbers. We have finally set a date for our departure and I want to shout it out from the roof tops!!!! but I can't. not yet.


*Goodonya Fully Detached.* If there is any way we can help with words of advice just ask. We're still out here doing it, albeit a wee bit slower than 40 years ago.

Yes, how old are your kids?
Seems we recall it can get harder when they're around puberty, but each family is different. 
As we said earlier, we self-taught our lads, and much credit to Jude who diligently sat them down every day, mostly while we were sailing the miles. It filled in all that time as the miles ticked off.

An idea. Jude has produced an Ebook (comes paperback too) called Practical Boat Bits and Tips - filled with simple ideas that work. We'll send you a copy if you want - Email us at capjack2j (at) gmail.com if you want a copy.
Cheers from DownUnder


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## c. breeze

Most young folks missed the boat. All one need do is go shatter your body and mind in a war- and you'll have a bit of money, and plenty of reason to stay away from land, people, politics, etc. a profound desire for quiet and soothin sounds like wind and waves- a love of real freedom that few understand, loathing for the weak needed slaves of convenience, and the intestinal fortitude to drive on in the face of insurmountable adversity. All those make up for a lack of 36' of waterline with in mast furling, and a capt to sail your pathetic drunken a** around biscayne bay or the bajamas or bvi what have you.


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## Donna_F

c. breeze said:


> Most young folks missed the boat. All one need do is go shatter your body and mind in a war- and you'll have a bit of money, and plenty of reason to stay away from land, people, politics, etc. a profound desire for quiet and soothin sounds like wind and waves- a love of real freedom that few understand, loathing for the weak needed slaves of convenience, and the intestinal fortitude to drive on in the face of insurmountable adversity. All those make up for a lack of 36' of waterline with in mast furling, and a capt to sail your pathetic drunken a** around biscayne bay or the bajamas or bvi what have you.


A bit harsh I think.

My "real freedom" may not be your "real freedom." I kind of think it's relative to each of our personal experiences. And unless someone is actually in a position in which he or she has to test their "intestinal fortitude" who am I to say that anyone can't do it? Everyone has their own bar at which their envelope is pushed.

I have plenty ex and current military in my family and circle of friends and I thank them for helping to create a society that allows me the opportunities that in turn allow me to hire a captain to sail my pathetic drunken ass in the BVIs with in-mast furling*.

*Just an example. I captain my own boat, never sail drunk and in-mast furling isn't on my wish list.


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## c. breeze

DRFerron said:


> A bit harsh I think.
> 
> My "real freedom" may not be your "real freedom." I kind of think it's relative to each of our personal experiences. And unless someone is actually in a position in which he or she has to test their "intestinal fortitude" who am I to say that anyone can't do it? Everyone has their own bar at which their envelope is pushed.
> 
> I have plenty ex and current military in my family and circle of friends and I thank them for helping to create a society that allows me the opportunities that in turn allow me to hire a captain to sail my pathetic drunken ass in the BVIs with in-mast furling*.
> 
> *Just an example. I captain my own boat, never sail drunk and in-mast furling isn't on my wish list.


* yes, just an example... and honestly, I have roller furling, not hank-ons at the headsail so I can't really make any headway with that arguement either. But I can distill my rather caustic argument regarding people in my age bracket, call it 25-35 - people older and younger down to:

A) sailing is bit too inconvenient for most
B) weather is too frequently present, as in- there is "weather" outside
C) seriously misplaced values, instilled by a society that has faded to a shadow of it self- lest we forget, once we (USA) were a nation of independent, westward expanding, rebellious adventurers...
Being more than 3 blocks from 2 starbucks outlets- as seemingly impossible as it might be- is a bit more adventure than most of us can handle these days.

If one charters a 50' Cat with all the conveniences of home, and someone to drive it- more power to them, at least they are out in the wind- that's really the point, isn't it?

Racing LAsers, sailing Hobie cats off the beach, Cruising and potluck dinners, sundowners with the yachties, teaching 7 year olds to feel the helm on an optimist, circumnavigating solo on a 20 footer- theres something for everyone out there- why in God's name aren't more folks picking it up sooner? probably lack of awareness of just how versatile and multifaceted sailing is. It is truly the answer for whatever is ailing you.

There is also an idea that sailing is cost prohibitive- which it is, as is boat ownership- however, it too is misplaced. Most people, in my experience, are totally unaware that there are hundreds of awesome sailboats (keelboats) ready to sail away for under 5000 dollars- the assumption is that "yachts" cost 10's of thousands. Further assumptions are that Bermuda is in the Caribbean, and that the Bahamas are hundreds of Miles out there, etc.

It all appears quite daunting, if you never investigate the realities. How often do we see "it's a buyers market."

People also tend to dramaticize boat ownership. For young people, couples or individuals, as has been pointed out in previous posts, a 26-32 footer is plenty- but there aren't exactly tons of brokers out there , parents out there, college councelors out there, saying "go buy a brand x 29, and sail your ass off for 6 months and flip it" IT's a dirty little secret that you can fly to Seattle, buy a boat for 3500- or less, do a 2500 dollar refit, and sail to SAn Diego, and sell the boat for 5000. The real answer- from a young(ish) person who does it- is that theres' no need to saddle yourself with storage fees, etc- buy the boat, sail it, sell it. Want to go again? fine, do it all over again. If you find your dream boat along the way- keep it and maybe (maybe) get a real job to help support the thing.

NOw- in my experience, what you do see a good bit of is people who are in there late teens, to mid / late 20's who have figured out that owning a boat is more of a hassle than its usually worth, and chartering is pricey- so they just get a job that involves sailing, IE Crewing on big square riggers, or Dive boats, or charter boats, or deliveries. As a "sailor" deliveries are my favorite- gunkholing is alright- but it certainly isnt my social scene- I'm in it for the sailing, and if you need your 1st 456 in the grenadines, or what have you, theres alot of folks like myself out there who are A) skippers, or B) crew. WHy pay for a boat when you can get paid to do all the sailing.

that's at the crux for lots of young folks- who wants to hang out in anchorage, sipping rum with everyones grandparents? Let's get out and get heeled over.


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## wolfenzee

smackdaddy said:


> It's this. Nothing but this.
> 
> If you're a person, whether young or old, that hungers for adventure - a sailboat, whether luxurious or spartan, is pretty much the best way in the world to go find it.


That is why getting my boat is only part of my dream, sailing to the tropics another part...the most important part for me is to share it.

Marketing makes people think we need a new 6 figure yacht, but according to a sailnet poll...82% of boats are 20+years old while 4% are 1-5


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## wolfenzee

c. breeze said:


> *.......
> 
> *There is also an idea that sailing is cost prohibitive- which it is, as is boat ownership- however, it too is misplaced. * ........


What is expensive about boat ownership is paying someone else to do the work for you and buying equipment, materiels and supplies from a "yachtie" source. 
Example: I replaced all the standing rigging on my 30' boat by buying a 300'spool of 1/4" 7x19 316ss from a commercial source for $225 (75cent/ft).....through a rigger it would be as much as $3.35/ft ....I saved $7000 by doing the work myself (total cost was $250mat + $30lab) and getting materials from cheap source.


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## Donna_F

c. breeze said:


> ...
> 
> that's at the crux for lots of young folks- who wants to hang out in anchorage, sipping rum with everyones grandparents? Let's get out and get heeled over.


Nice response. To the young people who agree with that last bit, I wouldn't totally rule out spending the odd day or two with someone's grandparents and at anchor is the perfect environment. At least it means that you both left the dock. I learned a lot, and continue to learn, from the older sailors who have traveled the same roads and beyond and made the same mistakes. We have jobs that help our boat float. I'd rather spend a few hours (sometimes it only takes minutes) listening to someone help me do things right than spend that time equivalent of my paycheck fixing something that could easily have been avoided.

Last summer we rafted up with a pair of older gentlemen who kindly gave us lots of good information about our boat and how to get better sail performance from it. One had previously owned the same type and while we sipped their very generous drinks, he came aboard and helped fix a problem we were having. It surely saved us a major headache and having to haul our boat, leaving us less time for sailing.


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## SirRedemption

hannah2 said:


> Majority is not always right. That is why we have elected officials. But who cares and who cares about the inter coastal waterway. Maybe too many folks took their freedom a little too far and now you have cops everywhere.


Actually no, you are incorrect. I say this with all the respect in the world and only an earnest attempt to educate you.

While majority is not always right it is NOT the reason we have elected officials. The purpose of an elected official is to be a representative 'of the people' it is their job to support and defend OUR views not their own. This country is supposed to be a Republic that uses Democracy in its election and law passing process. Not a Dictatorship (such as some of the countries in the Middle East) or a Monarchy such in England. Unfortunately No the politicians have mostly not been doing their jobs but this is a different topic and at most maybe one small reason that steers some away from boat ownership

I am not typically a fan of political angles But I have plenty of friends on the E coast who roll their eyes every time the topic of the FL laws come up. One of them now lives here full time in part to that problem. Someone with a 1.5 million dollar boat.

I think there are plenty of 'youngsters' on the water still. I am in my late 20's my sailing student is in her mid 20's but there are certainly 'more' things for youngsters to do these days.

video games, cell phones, app games, sleeping a lot. The economy is also poor. Between my main girl and I we make a good living and that is one of the few reasons we are able to afford a boat. Not everyone wants to leave the land life completely behind in order to sail so a good percentage of those people are unable to own.

I also understand the point of those who have been in the military. I am a formerly active duty Marine myself. Freedom and quiet is among the reasons I have learned to love the sea. plying my skills against the ocean who has been kind enough not to end my life is another reason. The challenge of doing something meaningful.

Before the topic turns to that. I saw my share of nasty stuff overseas and sure that absolutely plays a part in why I go away on my boat once in awhile, and the allure of being away from people occasionally is not lost on me.

Just my 2 cents


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## smackdaddy

c. Breeze said:


> * yes, just an example... And honestly, i have roller furling, not hank-ons at the headsail so i can't really make any headway with that arguement either. But i can distill my rather caustic argument regarding people in my age bracket, call it 25-35 - people older and younger down to:
> 
> A) sailing is bit too inconvenient for most
> b) weather is too frequently present, as in- there is "weather" outside
> c) seriously misplaced values, instilled by a society that has faded to a shadow of it self- lest we forget, once we (usa) were a nation of independent, westward expanding, rebellious adventurers...
> Being more than 3 blocks from 2 starbucks outlets- as seemingly impossible as it might be- is a bit more adventure than most of us can handle these days.
> 
> If one charters a 50' cat with all the conveniences of home, and someone to drive it- more power to them, at least they are out in the wind- that's really the point, isn't it?
> 
> Racing lasers, sailing hobie cats off the beach, cruising and potluck dinners, sundowners with the yachties, teaching 7 year olds to feel the helm on an optimist, circumnavigating solo on a 20 footer- theres something for everyone out there- why in god's name aren't more folks picking it up sooner? Probably lack of awareness of just how versatile and multifaceted sailing is. It is truly the answer for whatever is ailing you.
> 
> There is also an idea that sailing is cost prohibitive- which it is, as is boat ownership- however, it too is misplaced. Most people, in my experience, are totally unaware that there are hundreds of awesome sailboats (keelboats) ready to sail away for under 5000 dollars- the assumption is that "yachts" cost 10's of thousands. Further assumptions are that bermuda is in the caribbean, and that the bahamas are hundreds of miles out there, etc.
> 
> It all appears quite daunting, if you never investigate the realities. How often do we see "it's a buyers market."
> 
> people also tend to dramaticize boat ownership. For young people, couples or individuals, as has been pointed out in previous posts, a 26-32 footer is plenty- but there aren't exactly tons of brokers out there , parents out there, college councelors out there, saying "go buy a brand x 29, and sail your ass off for 6 months and flip it" it's a dirty little secret that you can fly to seattle, buy a boat for 3500- or less, do a 2500 dollar refit, and sail to san diego, and sell the boat for 5000. The real answer- from a young(ish) person who does it- is that theres' no need to saddle yourself with storage fees, etc- buy the boat, sail it, sell it. Want to go again? Fine, do it all over again. If you find your dream boat along the way- keep it and maybe (maybe) get a real job to help support the thing.
> 
> Now- in my experience, what you do see a good bit of is people who are in there late teens, to mid / late 20's who have figured out that owning a boat is more of a hassle than its usually worth, and chartering is pricey- so they just get a job that involves sailing, ie crewing on big square riggers, or dive boats, or charter boats, or deliveries. As a "sailor" deliveries are my favorite- gunkholing is alright- but it certainly isnt my social scene- i'm in it for the sailing, and if you need your 1st 456 in the grenadines, or what have you, theres alot of folks like myself out there who are a) skippers, or b) crew. Why pay for a boat when you can get paid to do all the sailing.
> 
> That's at the crux for lots of young folks- who wants to hang out in anchorage, sipping rum with everyones grandparents? Let's get out and get heeled over.


^^^this!!!


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## c. breeze

Paying others to fix/ maintain your boat is definitely one facet of what is expensive about owning a boat. 

Keeping your boat moored or docked for a year will totally crush the pittance that is redoing rigging however. My point being- buy it, do what needs doing- sail it - and get shed of it. Until you get the itch again. Buying and working on boats IS the cheap part of ownership. 

As for the old folks at anchor etc- 

Absolutely, I didn't teach myself to sail- my dad did, you needn't be a rocket scientist to recognize the value of others experience. Additionally- I'm just a service oriented guy. And now that I can't serve my country- it's all about the individuals I run across on a day to day basis- and the 60-70 something set, who can afford more boat than they can handle or fix are without a doubt the majority of who I run into on the hook. That said- it's about all that makes me feel like I'm still relavent when I can help them out- or even just hang out for a few and make them feel relavent. Like John prine said "hello in there"

I'm single handed about 90% of the time on my boat- so a little company is always welcome respite- and while I always shocked at the overall lack of seamanship I meet- I feel no need to be critical of others out there- like DR (initials right?) said- at least we are out there. It's important to be thankful for the experience and knowledge I have - and it's dead wrong to refrain from sharing it and learning from others. 

It's often times however that ghastly handholding motor sailing mentality of the group that is a turn off. That and the idea that we can't cast off or pull anchor if there's more than 8 knots of wind. Oh- and the mentality that if you have to tack a couple times to get there the weather is "bad"


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## PPPPPP42

Sailing is too expensive for a person of your average capabilities and boat storage space.

I don't need both hands to count the number of places within several hours drive that you could actually launch bigger than a tiny day sailor and that's assuming there was enough room to comfortably tack once its launched.

People who like sailing like sailboats, not people who like boating. For your average person riding in a sailboat means sitting in cramped cockpit composed of uncomfortable hard surfaces that is always tilted at an annoying angle with aluminum beams and ropes flailing around trying to kill you. Not exactly a relaxing day out.


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## wind_magic

PPPPPP42 said:


> People who like sailing like sailboats, not people who like boating. For your average person riding in a sailboat means sitting in cramped cockpit composed of uncomfortable hard surfaces that is always tilted at an annoying angle with aluminum beams and ropes flailing around trying to kill you. Not exactly a relaxing day out.


Until she heels over on a reach as she was meant to ...


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## NaviGsr

Cruising requires being self-sufficient whether you are across the bay or on the other side of the world.

Our generation has been brought up in a world where there is no need for self-sufficiency. We have been taught to get a plumber to unclog the sink, call a tow truck to change a tire, and an electrician to install a light. 

Our world is filled with products that have limited lifespans. These commodities aren't designed to be maintained or serviced. They are designed to be disposed of when they break. 

It used to be that handling the daily problems of life on your own was part of being a competent adult. That mentality does not exist in my generation.

We have been told the only path in this world is to go to college so you can get a job that pays you enough to afford the products and services you need to have a comfortable life in this country. This is part of what is sinking the middle class.

Can we learn to be self-sufficient? Of course! But it's not easy. When nothing in my daily life requires these skills they become as obsolete as traditional rigging.


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## hannah2

Interesting stuff. Over on the thread (interesting sail boats) Paulo posted a vid of young people crossing from S. Africa to Brazil. Post 3867. The youngsters here should go have a look. I don't know that young couple but I'm willing to bet they had the desire to overcome every excuse I see by young people here why they are not sailing to far off destinations. Again, nothing about today's problems has anything to do with truly wanting to get out and do it. There have always been problems for each and every generation but a certain percentage of young people have over come those problems because they really wanted to do it. It will be the same 30 years from now.

About wanting to hang out in the cockpit with grandparent aged people. Maybe that is why you are not sailing. It takes a bigger mind than that to over come many of the difficulties to go serious cruising. Maybe you need to spend more time actually getting to talk with more people of any age who are serious cruisers than spending time on the internet, you should be walking the docks of marinas where people really sail. What you will find that there is no age bias within the serious cruising community. We all have the same interest and desires and that is why we are actually out cruising. I realize young serious sailors need time with other sailors their age and they always find much time to do so. But they also have time to be apart of all the cruising community as we old farts have time for the young and don't think twice about someones age. Thinking like that sounds like the famous Bumfuzzels the famous 3 ring circus of the cruising world. 
I'm not trying to be a jerk or arrogant here I just want many of the young and the old here that are always bitchin that you are not looking for a solution you are only making excuses. 

For a lot of the young want to be sailors from N. America you should be reading the Interesting sailboat thread and learning why there are more Europeans young sailing around the world. They have discovered the new breed of boats around 10 meters long and saving their money to buy them then go live their dream. These boats have been around long enough now that in Europe I bet you can pick up a good used one for for a lot less than all the old junk that is left on the N. American market that one has to put so much into in cost and time and still only have half the boat of the European boats. I couldn't think of a better solution for a young person than saving enough money to go to Europe buy a modern designed used boat and taking off to far off places from there. Paulo knows his stuff an can answer any questions on boats posted that might work for you in your price range. Do the research, set goals and do it. 

Remember I did it when I was in my twenties and I know what it was like sailing all over the place. It is the very best time of your life to go but excuses I hear on this thread make me believe many of the young just dream and dream and dream. Back in the 70's there were also many of the young that just dreamed too, they never did much but that but that will always be.

Good luck, we love seeing young cruisers out there be it young families, young couples, two young guys, two young gals or young single handers. We drink together, we surf together, play music together, sail to destinations in the same weather window and we talk story together all learning so many interesting things about life from each other. 

Cheers.


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## c. breeze

I guess you are directing a bunch of that at me. And I will politely suggest you work on your reading comprehension. I will furthe say- why in gods name would I walk docks where people "actually sail" when I would way rather










JB welding the cap back together for the JB weld hardner










Flying fish on deck in the AM. As it should be










Partial finger amputation. The blood running down the cockpit drain alone at night in the ocean was a once in a lifetime (hopefully ) photo op. thankfully I had coffee- note the upper right corner...










JB welding the cap back together for the JB weld hardner


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## c. breeze

Or get my 19.5 feet of waterline going fast










Or balance my boat and trim my sails so she does everything while I chill on the foredeck and smile










Or go places where I can take pictures of my beautiful boat in a beautiful sunset


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## hannah2

No I did not direct it at you, my words are for the young who have not yet cruised. If you are a serious young cruiser I'm sure understand where I'm coming from.


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## c. breeze

Or spend a few days helping a stranger fix his boat










Or party my ass off with the locals










Or go do a little fishing










But- hey you and the other "real sailors" enjoy that dock.


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## wolfenzee

NaviGsr said:


> Cruising requires being self-sufficient whether you are across the bay or on the other side of the world.
> 
> Our generation has been brought up in a world where there is no need for self-sufficiency. We have been taught to get a plumber to unclog the sink, call a tow truck to change a tire, and an electrician to install a light.
> 
> Our world is filled with products that have limited lifespans. These commodities aren't designed to be maintained or serviced. They are designed to be disposed of when they break.
> 
> It used to be that handling the daily problems of life on your own was part of being a competent adult. That mentality does not exist in my generation.
> 
> We have been told the only path in this world is to go to college so you can get a job that pays you enough to afford the products and services you need to have a comfortable life in this country. This is part of what is sinking the middle class.
> 
> Can we learn to be self-sufficient? Of course! But it's not easy. When nothing in my daily life requires these skills they become as obsolete as traditional rigging.


In the book "Ocean Voyaging" by David Parker....there is something that says (roughly) "Every system on a boat will at sometime fail and a cruising sailor should know how to, have the tools and parts to be able to fix that system with out any help from the outside world"
One of my pet peves is present day boaters reliance on having stuff done by techs and/or buying gizmos that can only be fixed by techs.


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## c. breeze

I may have been quick on the trigger then with the response- but I was me who initially said I don't really do the social scene of hanging with the grandparents sippin drinks...


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## hannah2

c. breeze said:


> Or spend a few days helping a stranger fix his boat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or party my ass off with the locals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or go do a little fishing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But- hey you and the other "real sailors" enjoy that dock.


I do enjoy the dock at times but then I enjoy all aspects of long distant sailing. Maybe you mistook me for the group who does not sail and only hangs out at docks. We sail the world and sail it hard but in doing so we enjoy all that is offered hopefully like you do, the locals in far off places, the cruisers close to home and those sailing to the same destinations we do. Fishing is one of my first loves while passage making. 
Soon we will pickup our new boat in France and be headed off on another adventure hopefully for 5 or 6 years this time. Our major destinations on this one hopefully will be the Caroline Islands and the rivers of Borneo and PNG. We love at times the isolation of atolls in the middle of nowhere and sometimes we love hanging out for the cyclone season in a busy port in New Zealand, surfing, drinking with cruisers and locals we have met along the way.
We are lucky to be able to afford a new boat at our age. 
Bienvenue chez Boreal
Here is our only blog from our last trip across the pacific back in 2007 to 2009, it was only two years because our younger son had had enough and wanted to go to high school instead of being homed schooled. We have grand kids now and wanted them to be able to follow us seeing we couldn't spend much time with them. I wish I could have had a blog back in the 70's of sailing then. I think you would see it is much the same as your sailing is now. They were great times and I hope more younger dreamers will get out and do it like you are but excuses won't make it happen will it.
What Are We Doing? | Hannah

Keep up the good work and if we meet up on our next passage come aboard have a rum and let's talk fishing or take mine or your boat out of some exotic anchorage and troll with hand lines for Ahi and Mahi while under sail.

Cheers


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## smackdaddy

c. breeze said:


> Partial finger amputation. The blood running down the cockpit drain alone at night in the ocean was a once in a lifetime (hopefully ) photo op. thankfully I had coffee- note the upper right corner...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JB welding the cap back together for the JB weld hardner


Couldn't you just JB Weld that finger back on? Or at least weld that cap over the bloody stump.

It takes one tough mofo to bleed like a headless Dorado all over the cockpit then take a picture of his own carnage. Well played my good man.


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## c. breeze

Haha. Not that tough. Just jacked up on adrenaline. And doing what I had to in the situation- albeit with a pause to snap a pic. Hahahaha. 

2 surgeries and I'm about back as good as new. Hindsight being what it is- I *might* have preferred to actually lose it- as it was half the pinky on my right hand- not really that critical and a way cooler story if it were actually gone. 

Hannah- I misunderstood. You referenced that hanging out at the dock -"where people are actually sailing" or whatever-would be a good idea hence my confusion as to your habits or preferences. At any rate whenever Or wherever we meet- ill be way way less cranky- because I won't be 3 hours from my boat- and it won't be on the hard. Right now I'm hauled out- finishing a new bottom. Ugh. Actually right now I'm 3 hours away not doing the bottom. But I'm sure it'll be there when I get back to it Sunday.


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## GeorgeB

c. breeze, did I miss the story behind the finger? Was it a winch mishap? (you'd be surprised on how common it is for fingers to get caught into winches or hockles on lines under load)


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## wind_magic

c. breeze said:


> 2 surgeries and I'm about back as good as new. Hindsight being what it is- I *might* have preferred to actually lose it- as it was half the pinky on my right hand- not really that critical and a way cooler story if it were actually gone.


I heard that half of c. breeze's pinky was bitten off by a shark and that c. breeze killed the shark and carved one the shark's teeth to replace the pinky bone that was missing. I bet you can totally see where c. breeze sewed it back together with seaweed thread.


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## c. breeze

No- I'm not sure how I happened. My boat got sideways in some big waves and I got smashed around in the cockpit. I think it most likely got crushed between the tiller and the port side lazarette? It was really hectic. I told a bit a out it in the "school I hard knocks" thread. 

Bad judgement. That's all. Late- really tired after a long day haulin ass north in the Gulf Stream- and I got my ass handed to me trying to get inside. Not even a bad inlet- just a little bit of bad judgement. I did do some pretty "technical" sailing immediately after it happened. Then I hove to- and tried to figure things out. I thought it was gone from all the blood- and it felt wierd- but it was just mangled and broken. Flapping by shreds. 

A buddy of mine got bitten by a shark on his hand surfing a Sebastian a few years ago- about a 2 footer- or maybe 20" He has really sweet shark bite scars- but a really lame story. 

"Oh my God- you got attacked by a shark- was it little- like 4-5 feet?"
"Um, yeah- it was a little one" how lame to have an embarrassing shark attack story. 

Like my embarrassing sailing story there. Ha.


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## jasenj1

I'm a newbie, but I'll throw a few cents worth into the conversation.

I'm forty-something and just getting into sailing. Been crewing for a few years in weekly races.

1) Sailing is and needs a community. It's the kind of skill that is taught and passed down from generation to generation. I got into sailing by walking the docks one night and getting a ride on someone's boat. People need to know those opportunities exist, and those with boats need to take on fresh meat.

I think that sense of community is something our modern age has lost - maybe I'm wrong. My dad is all up in his neighbors' business, helping this one do that, having another help him. I barely know my neighbors' names. We've cocooned into our houses with giant flat-screen TVs, laptops, iPads, home theaters, etc.

Yacht clubs I'm sure provide that community to those willing to pay the price. But how do you get people to pony up the $$$ and commitment to join something they don't even know if they like?

Cruising has and needs that community spirit, too. I've read many blogs about people helping each other out with this or that problem. Again, I think the modern world does not foster that spirit.

2) Sailing is REALLY complicated. Power boating is like driving a car but on the water. Cruising is far more complicated than basic sailing. The world is filled with other, easy, less-risky entertainment. Maybe that has always been true, but I don't think so.

3) Time & money.
These days people don't have a nice union factory job with good benefits & job security. They're out there working 60 hrs a week hoping their job doesn't get off-shored or turned into two 30 hour a week employees so the company can avoid paying benefits. And the statistics on personal debt are horrendous. People don't seem to know how not to spend every dime (and then some) they get paid.

Enough rambling for now.


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## wolfenzee

I would say the best answer to the question would be you are not looking in the right places and/or the % of people overall cruising is less. Most of the boats I see sit in marinas all the time and never get out....the boats that do get out the most are actually sailed by the "younger crowd". While the "6 figure" boats spend most of their time in the marina slip....the boats that actually get out could be considered "4 figure" (though some might have actually been purchased for something in the hundreds or even have been free-ish). A friend of mine sailed all over the pacific on a "free boat" with bare bones equipment on an annual cruisng budget of $2500...he kept this up until he was convinced that he should do better things with his life (like get married, have children and settle down).....woman represent 3 out of the top 5 reaosns someone has to give up a boat :/


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## wolfenzee

It is the middle of winter and I am looking at a Catalina 24 (which sold to a kid for $2000) out sailing while all the "yachties" are in there warm offices and/or home.


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## schmitt7

New poster here, throwing in my two cents.

I'm 29 years old, looking at buying my first sailboat. I took a basic sailing course at the local sailing club and sailed weekly over the course of last summer.

This spring I looking to buy something in the 22-25 foot range while spending between $1500-$3000. My goal is to have a boat to tool around on/cruise on the weekends on lake Michigan. I've been checking craigslist and ebay for the right deal. I live the adventure side of sailing and lower fuel costs over a powerboat.


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## hannah2

youmeandthed said:


> I'm curious on opinions on this one. When Baby boomers were in their 20's there were lots of them in small capable sailboats (some they made themselves) cruising across oceans; but now-a-days the majority of twenty-year olds appear to be utterly useless. I just don't get it, and I'm in my twenties, and cruising.
> 
> I'm also curious as to where people think the future of the sailing industry is going if there are so few young people involved?
> 
> Any thoughts?


Here is the original post on the subject. The OP was curious to know why 20's were not cruising as much as their baby boomer peers did in the 70's, that would be when the baby boomers were in their 20's.

The truth is their are 20 somethings cruising now. Percentage wise I'd say it the same as the 70's maybe even a bit higher percentage. You can't look at the number of boats sitting in Marinas. You can't look at costs of boats because 20 somethings and 30 somethings who are cruising over came any of the problems of today's world just like the baby boomers who went cruising back in the 70's had to over come the problems of the that era. And there were many and they seemed at the time just as grave as today's problems. The draft and the Vietnam war were huge compared to today's economic problems. And our parents were much more conservative about our futures than today. We were the generation that was told to go get a job, have 2.4 kids and live in the burbs. At least today as parents to 20 somethings we tell them to live their dreams far more than we were told by our parents. 
Boats have always been sitting around in marinas and we used to comment on it all the time. But most sailors, 99% of them don't have and never had dreams of serious cruising so all those boats don't mean anything to someone cruising.

Wolfenzee, All those yachties don't mean a thing, what has that to do with cruising for you or me or anyone wanting to go cruising? Please fill me in on your thoughts. Do you think that your friend that sailed all over the Pacific had to escape the Yachties in the marina syndrome. I'm sure he was so focused on going cruising that he gave a rats butt about those people.

I wish some of the young guys that have posted on this thread that have taken off on long journeys would post again and tell us how they did it. All the hassles they had to overcome to do it. I promise you they had no excuses about 60 hour work weeks keeping them from doing it, maybe 60 hour work weeks so they could go. Maybe they had someone they were in love with but the urge to go cruising was stronger and left that love.

We just go round and round on this interesting thread. I don't give up on the young because there is like there always been a small percent of them who excel in thinking outside the box and just don't dream but live there dream. The rest are just people who need the other things in life, College, jobs, lots of money, etc. We should be happy for them and be even more happy that some of the young have figured out that there can be more to life than the usual. We have heard from some young who have lots of excuses and there is nothing wrong with that buts lets hear from those out doing and how they did it.


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## IamJohnGalt

What's the quote? Something like there are 99 people seeking security for every 1 willing to risk it all?

We (20-30year olds) are afraid to take the risk. People do what is safe to them and instead of going on adventures, we drink it away, or waste it on clothes/material items. When we talk about taking the risk, we are convinced otherwise, but still have that sense of adventure within us, and we go back to the safe. 

Eventually you get tired of living the way you do, you want to do something for you. You sell your house, your car, your land life, and do that one risk. The risk that has been in the back of your mind for a while. You buy a boat, take a lesson, and cast off.

This is why my generation isn't out there as much. We are growing up debt ridden, jobless, and taught not to think for ourselves. You spend ~60 000 to ~300 000 on university over 4 years, a $1000 boat plus a ~600 basic cruising class and 2-3000 in repairs to get it ready to sail, becomes a feat. 

All this being said, I've noticed there is a growing trend into sailing, somewhat piggybacking on the green energy/living trend. Will be interesting to see the future.


-two job, full time advanced economics student who still has time to do philanthropic activities


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## SirRedemption

Even though I have stated all the reasons why younger people dont take the risk I will state again.

I just recently turned 29. My sailing student is 25 and. My last trip consisted of all people under 30. There is a good amount but not enough.

Far as cruising goes its not in the cards for me right now. I have a family to raise and when that is over with I will go as far and my heart desires I travel and not a nautical mile further nor shorter.

Truth is a lot of people under 30 would love to spend more time on boats. I know this because Ive tried to get a lot of them to go.... often times they just wont go. There is always a reason why but who am I to judge what is a reason and what is an excuse? Who am I to decide for another what is more important?

Truth is owning a boat is a lot of work. Sure I could schlep it around like the trailer park queen and not work on my vessel and just do the minimum to keep it floating... I think we all know what happens to vessels like that. Ive helped bring them up from the bottom of the harbor before.

I am selling one of my other loves and long time passions. My motorcycle project. If the buyer doesnt flake out on me I will finally have the money to get some very needed upgrades handled on my vessel. You know **** like the rest of my paint, my motor maitnence and.... running water.

Working on ones boat is often done alone and presents its own set of challenges but hey, its not stopping me. That doesnt make it less gripe worthy and I am sure a good number of you other skippers know how hard it is to get people to put in 'time before the mast' when theres greasy or dirty work to be done.


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## Donna_F

I have zero desire to learn downhill skiing. I hate the cold. I hate being cold and wet. I hate wearing 40 layers of clothes. I'll deal with the cold, I'll put on the layers. But not to participate in a sport that I just don't care about.

I wonder if, when I was in my twenties and thirties, some skiing forum was labeling me as lazy and uninspired despite the fact that I was taking unpaid leave from my job to go across the country to volunteer for disaster relief, I was a SAR volunteer and swift water rescue instructor and a mentor for deliquent teens. 

It could very well be the case that, shockingly, there aren't a lot of young people who even WANT to sail. Just because it's my passion does not make it anyone else's. For me to judge you based on my lifestyle is a waste of time.


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## wind_magic

DRFerron said:


> It could very well be the case that, shockingly, there aren't a lot of young people who even WANT to sail.


 I don't know what the statistics are but I think its safe to say that overall sailing isn't as popular as it once was, maybe it is even the least popular now that it has been in modern history ? I don't know. It sure seems like there were smaller more accessible boats in the 1970's when the baby boomers were young and sailing, but maybe that isn't really true, I don't know.


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## SirRedemption

DRFerron said:


> I have zero desire to learn downhill skiing. I hate the cold. I hate being cold and wet. I hate wearing 40 layers of clothes. I'll deal with the cold, I'll put on the layers. But not to participate in a sport that I just don't care about.
> 
> I wonder if, when I was in my twenties and thirties, some skiing forum was labeling me as lazy and uninspired despite the fact that I was taking unpaid leave from my job to go across the country to volunteer for disaster relief, I was a SAR volunteer and swift water rescue instructor and a mentor for deliquent teens.
> 
> It could very well be the case that, shockingly, there aren't a lot of young people who even WANT to sail. Just because it's my passion does not make it anyone else's. For me to judge you based on my lifestyle is a waste of time.


Ive been snowboarding and that was fun but not the kind of thing I would want to do normally either.

There was a time once upon a time where I had less than ZERO desire to be out on the ocean. Ive learned better and its a place I love being now but perception of a thing can guide ones opinion in a lot of cases too.

I do know that some of the post resounds with me because I always feel ever so slighly out of place. I dont really fit in with people my own age but I am always around people 10-20 years older than myself. This is an issue both inside and outside of sailing, a problem I have had most of my life. I know it would be nice to know a couple more people my own age with the same interests


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## bljones

Maybe the challenge is a lack of touchstones.
Back in the 60s you had a whole whack of folks setting off and circling the world, in the late 60s and early 70s you had a DIY culture growing...
...and you had "dove". 
I think that "Dove" was a touchstone that inspired a generation or two.

The story of "Dove" inspired millions of sailors, including me. It demonstrated that you didn't have to be rich, you didn't have to be old you didn't have to be educated, you didn't have to own a VW bus to simply tune in, turn on, drop out and go out and just freakin' do it. It demonstrated _attainability_. "Dove" lit the fuse for a whole lot of us.

I don't think there is a 21st generation "Dove." Yeah, I know somebody is going to nominate the "Hold Fast" crew, but the comparison is invalid. Graham sailed around the world for FIVE YEARS. the "hold fast" jibsters lasted less than five months. it wasn't a lifestyle for them it was a checkbox on their punchlist. The bumfuzzles come closer, but again, they left the water, having been there, done that, but there was an underlying theme of upper middle class privilege. 
The sunderland siblings and jessica watson and their ilk are hopefully the harbingers of a renaissance of youthful cruising and globe trotting.
We need it.


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## smackdaddy

bljones said:


> The bumfuzzles come closer, but again, they left the water, having been there, done that, but there was an underlying theme of upper middle class privilege...


Actually, they're still on the water. I'm reading Pat's new book. Interesting thus far.


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## bljones

Actually, actually, they are back on the water,(after touring by VW bus and Porsche) not still on the water, but still, back to you, smack.
Bumfuzzle » Us


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## smackdaddy

"Still", "back", whatever. My point is that they only left the water for a while (after having been on it for a few years)...and are now living squarely on it again.

I follow their blog pretty regularly. I like them a lot. I like the way they've done what they've done. That's why I bought their book. Just started it - so we'll see where it goes. 

But they're doing it. I respect that.


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## bljones

i don't disagree with you, smack, i respect them following their dreams. i simply corrected your inaccurate correction because i respect what they do enough to get it right.

Actually, my respect grew on this second foray, since they are doing it with spawn on a tighter budget.


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## LauderBoy

I wonder if it's perception more than anything. As in it's less that there's fewer young people sailing and more that we have a much larger quantity of older people cruising than ever before.

People are living longer and are in better health in old age these days. Maybe the surge in popularity of sailing in the 60's/70's created a boom population of sailors that are still with us today. The younger sailors are there, it's just that they aren't the entire crowd anymore.


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## flandria

I'll give my nickel's worth (I am in Canada and we just jettisoned the penny, so my thoughts' values have increased five-fold...).
I got into sailing when I was in my 40s. Prior to that it was a combination of career, kids, and building the kitty. So those folks who got into sailing in their teens or twenties are just plain fortunate and (always) in the minority.
Cost is always a factor, and not just when buying a boat. The annual costs can be considerable and two items, in particular, may well contribute disproportionately. In spite of growing populations everywhere, the rules and regulations involved in constructing a new marina to accomodate any growing demand are such that it takes deep pockets to even consider buildiing a new one. I don't think a new marina has been started on the Canadian Great Lakes in the last 20 years, and expansion of existing ones has been marginal. We all know what happens when you limit supply... it becomes a sellers' market and prices rise accordingly.

Add to that the increasing minimum requirements to insure a boat merely for sitting in a dock somewhere and you have just raised the bar a little again.

Some of the comments here also point to the increased complexity of contemporary vessels, and the expectations of their owners. My first boat, though a fine Tayana 37 which I still regret selling had (1) no fridge, (2) no self-tailing winches, (3) no Loran-C (in those days, precursor of GPS for the younger crowd) (4) only a manual windlass... You get the point. Perhaps boat dealers have a sense of what "younger" purchasers consider minimum requirements when buying and judge to what extent expectations may be limiting our supply of new sailors (if, indeed, there is a decline in numbers...)

I am not a handyman and curse myself for that shortcoming which only adds to my costs when I have to pay my (well-appreciated) marina technicians, but is it also possible that in this day of everything-computer our kids have less desire or skill to fix things - something that a young sailor most definitely would benefit from?

Over to you all...


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## krisscross

My son is 23. We sailed together many times on various lakes and Pamlico Sound. He is so busy with his job, paying off college debt and making a living, we hardly ever sail together. I got him interested in stand-up paddle boarding (SUP) recently - we have two nice boards I bought used (they used to be old windsurfing boards). He loves both sailing and SUP but rarely goes out to do it as he is so busy with taking care of the basics.
So from where I stand, it is primarily lack of time and money.


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## Captain Cross

Hey, I'm young! in my twenties- Just took up sailing last year (cruising, not racing.) Unfortunatly I had every conceivable issue getting her in water :X. 
I think the real reason there arn't more of "us yungins" out sailing is price- Boating is costly- I'm doing all I can to manage the boat and my student loans. 
Consider:
a smaller new motor boat can start at 8000 list. Comparable sailboats (in terms of LOA) from three years ago list 6000-7000 used.

Another point may be that motor boating, and this is totally my opinion I have no data to back this so don't keel haul me. But, motor boating is probably a much more attractive venue to people our age, largely because there is'nt a real skill set involved with it. You don't need to know how to tie a bunch of knots and what line dose what, how to run the lines or what to do if a line breaks. Motor boating I feel has fewer facets, ya got your lights and an engine. take it out when you and you'r buddys wanna get wet. Then, take it home when yur done. 

I bought a 33' (which is quickly becoming the love of my life.) I spent a good chunk of change just to buy her and now I'm fixing her. I can see how buying something as expensive as a sailboat only to have to work on her could be a turn off. 

In terms of where the industry is heading? I have never really thought about it. The market will survive thats for sure it will just change. Industrys always do this. I dont think the lack of young people involved will starve the industry. Our peers are young today but that only lasts a while, as they age thier intrests may change, give em a few years to see the light


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## Steve Pike

I just bought a 31' Columbia with new 20hp universal diesel (80 hrs) for $7000. Full time cruising with wife and 8yo son. We are having a ball. We just got to Florida from Md were we purchased the boat. Took us 6 weeks and my son is having a blast. Looking forward to getting to the Keys were we can go swimming and fishing and beach combing.


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## c. breeze

There aren't any tangible reasons to "cruise" or "voyage"

There are myriad tangible reasons not to. 

Other than maybe a photo album, and some real teak holly and mahogany I have no tangible benefits from all the time I spend on boats. And I guess the wood would be better off in a house. 

It's all internal. And as such lacking intrinsic value. 

As a society we assign worth more on a basis of intrinsic rather than sentimental value. We also have assigned life periods during which there is an expectation of which type of value we are expected to pursue- and as such which has more worth. During childhood we are pursuing (other than formal education, which is a tangent I will spare you) primarily items or experiences of sentimental value. As we move into adolescence and then young adulthood there is the expectation that we leave behind childish things and pursue items and experience of intrinsic value- which can parlayed into experience with sentimental value. Ie a two week charter or a week in (fill in the blank destination)

And then there is an expectation (and its new, call it 70 years old +\-) that when we hit 65 or so, we will be free of the need to pursue wealth, etc (intrinsic value) and we will bask in the glory of our golden years pursuing experience and items of sentimental value. 

Our society has relegated experience that has no "tangible" or intrinsic value to the realm of children and elderly. Oh- and two weeks vacation time per annum

How do you assign value? What to you has or holds real worth? 

"You need to grow up. There'll be time to cruise when you retire"


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## wolfenzee

a cruise or voyage indicates a beginning and end.....when I set out next summer I will not be coming back and I don't have to be to any place by any time. I will be a "cruiser" but will not be going on "a cruise". Just sailing off into the tropical sunset.


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## TheWollard

How did the older cruisers survive AND raise kids aboard?

Where did food come from? Gas? Water? Was cruising cheaper in the past? Did you do day labor or have jobs lined up when you arrived in a new port? Did you need special visas to work in foreign lands?

I'm interested in the logistics of living on the water. I assume you were able to live on the hook "rent free." Did you older sailors leave land behind with a sack full of cash or earn it as you traveled? If so, what did you do?


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## hillenme

c. breeze said:


> "You need to grow up. There'll be time to cruise when you retire"


Reminds of this.

I'm in my twenties and have every intention of trying to do some cruising at this time in my life. I am a Finance Manager at a mid-size company, and have done quite well at it. I've noticed people in my line of work especially (accounting/finanace) feel compelled to work themselves to death 70 hours a week with the hope that there is reward of retiring comfortably at 65 and then enjoying all the hobbies and experiences you dream about now.

Yes, I'm young, so is my girlfreind - 31 years old. She is also just finishing up chemotherapy for Breast Cancer and then radation. Before her diagnoses we had planned to pick-up and spend 6 months - a year living aboard in the Carribbean. We cannot possibly do it as soon as we'd like now, but hopefully 2014. In the meantime we have our 35 footer on Lake Michigan.

We have both recieved a harsh life lesson that we aren't gauranteed a long and healthful life. I have 65 y/o relatives with Parkinsons, cancer, crippled joints, etc... I feel like if I want to do this I should do it soon, because who's to say I'll get a chance to do it in 35 years? Should I turn 65 and find myself still limber and in good health with a comfortable nest egg, and a world to explore that hasn't been destroyed by war, global economic collapse, enviormental destruction or just made irrelevant by the digital world - well, then I'll just consider it bonus time that I get to have an adventure with again.


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## hannah2

TheWollard said:


> How did the older cruisers survive AND raise kids aboard?
> 
> Where did food come from? Gas? Water? Was cruising cheaper in the past? Did you do day labor or have jobs lined up when you arrived in a new port? Did you need special visas to work in foreign lands?
> 
> I'm interested in the logistics of living on the water. I assume you were able to live on the hook "rent free." Did you older sailors leave land behind with a sack full of cash or earn it as you traveled? If so, what did you do?


Wollard, I'll try and answer your questions as best I can remember. Early 70's for me first time, S. Pacific. I think there was 12 boats that crossed from N. American west coast. Others came through the canal from USA east coast and Europe. A few Europeans came via Cape Hope. Plus there were boats that had been in the S. Pacific for 2 or 3 years.

Kids were home schooled just like to day. In those days the American kids did the Calvert system as it was about the only educational home school program available. Today there are so many great programs and home schooling is so much a common thing now.

We did live on the hook a little more then because there were not as many Marinas. If there had been more marinas cruisers would have used them more. We all looked forward to a marina once in awhile after 2 months on the hook, land food, hot showers and resupply beer.

Food was more dried goods than today, rice, beans canned meat. Ice boxes then and ice lasted about 6 days in the tropics. More food available around the world today, even in isolated islands. All most all fuel came in 55 gallon drums when you could find it. Did not have the great engines like today so one had to be careful with fuel. Passages were less safe because no real weather forecasting and one did not motor through light or no winds. Had a good friend get caught in the famous Fiji cyclone of 72 because he had no way of running away from storm, he made it but never wanted to go through that again.

Cruising I think was about the same cost wise as today when you look at the dollar value now and then. Boats may have cost less to maintain as they were simpler but the gear was not as good as today and broke far more often.

Working in foreign countries was a bit easier except New Zealand. But anyplace was good if you had something they wanted and you could find work. Diesel mechanics did very well, waitresses and waiters did well in bigger places, same today. I picked fruit in New Zealand under the table and in Austraila I actually got payed to play ice hockey for a season and I did some stone work.

We did not have bank or credit cards back then so you had a letter of credit from a major bank and traveler checks. You could only cash in at a bank. Most sailors had money hidden somewhere on board nothing changes there.

Sailing was great then and still is just as good today but it was a bit different. I enjoy today because of great navigation products of today and instant weather you can go to so many more places now. By the way I still think the island women are just as beautiful today as they were in the 70's. The most beautiful smiles in the world.

I really think it is the same as you can see from my previous posts that young people have the same chances today as back then. You just have to have the same commitment as we had back then and find the way to break away from the lambs and the wolves.

Good luck to you all.


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## c. breeze

Then of course reality sets in, and one comes to terms with the fact that there isn't anything at all exceptional about the lack of young people going out on extended sailing ventures. Anymore than there's nothing extraordinary about the lack of Appalachian trail through hikers. The simple fact is that there are many, an always have been, people who enjoy weekends or weeks on the trail- and even significant numbers of stage hikers- however- true through hikers have always been in short supply. The extraordinary thing is that there is anyone at all for whom the desire for discovery and adventure is so strong that nothing else will do but to go forth- at risk of life and limb and grave discomfort and inconvenience in pursuit thereof. The desire to cross oceans has absolutely nothing to do with the desire to sail- they are linked of course, but for that personality the sailing is only a means to an end. The desire to through hike has absolutely nothing to do with the desire to get out and stretch ones legs. There is, in a certain small segment of the population, this form of mental illness that propels an individual far past the commonplace- and the insidious thing is that typically the possessed soul considers itself "free"

Laughable. It's as insatiable a monkey to keep fed as the desire to set thousands o dollars on a table and make it disappear or double with a role of the dice, the need to drink bottomless quAntities of liquor or run drugs into a vein with a needle. And in the end- potentially just as damaging- though not neccssarrilly. Spelling jeez. 

But then this is only my perspective - and I do not consider myself a cruiser. There's an obsessiveness to it that the terms "cruiser" or "liveaboard" don't do justice. 

I think there is an idyllic reverie that is conjured by the term "cruising" and as such I think it's a lifestyle that attracts a lot of people who are inherently not suited to it. Why aren't there more young people cruising? Why aren't there more people doing it period?

Why would there be- its certainly not all its cracked up to be. Probably the pertinent question would be "why aren't more young people taking there boats out for a week or two at a time?"

And to that I would say- they are, I see I all the time. 

To the question about was cruising cheaper back in the day- I don't know but I'm guessing it wasn't all that much cheaper- inflation being what it is. I would also say that if you drink like a fish all you need do is do it at home instead of the bar for 1-2 years and you'll have about 10,000 saved to buy a boat and take off for however long. No rent, no dock fees, all Of a sudden that budget goes pretty far. And of course isn't everyone a freelance photographer nowadays? I mean that accessibility provided by digital photography has changed the game for everyone. And all this time spent online has to be good for something too-like practicing writing something other than LOL Smiley smiley LMFAO. So then- by default we are freelance writers as well. Though apparently of shabby enough nature that we have to puke it out for free. Sometimes.


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## wind_magic

c. breeze said:


> The desire to cross oceans has absolutely nothing to do with the desire to sail- they are linked of course, but for that personality the sailing is only a means to an end.


So few people understand this.


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## tstenq

I did a lot of dinghy sailing with my pop as a child, when I turned 18, I got a Rhodes 19 (free-lots of glass work) and we sailed that until Pop dropped serious money ($2500) on a Contest 30. I love the escape from society, even if it is only for a couple hours at a time, but I think that most people my age have become addicted to social interaction based on instantaneous communication. they simply can't unplug long enough to find the joy of salt spray in their face and wind in their hair. Hopefully, I'll be getting a big time boat int he next year and can convince Pop to come across the pond with me. but a kid's gotta have dreams right?


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## skaterp14

Time to bring this one back to life. It has been about a year since I posted (page 6). I started sailing about a year and a half ago and fell in love with it the first time I filled the main. I was raised on the water and have always had a passion for the water, but no one in my family has ever sailed and when I told them I wanted a sailboat they said " What do you want a blow boat for?!?!??". So just to try I bought a $1500 mac 22 and trailered it back to my house. I bought a sailing book, started to read a lot of sailing forums, raised the mast in my yard, hoisted the sails, took a swig of captn and said "DAMN I can do this". That was in January. Since then the boat made it to the water and I have been sailing it ever since. The future wife and me have taken quite a few trips on it now and love it, you would be surprised at how much stuff I can cram in that boat. Soon we plan to buy a bigger boat though. Somewhere around the 30ish foot that most people would say You want that piece of junk?????? HELL YEAH! Cant you see the potential???? I am 26 years old now and CAN NOT WAIT TO GET OFF LAND!


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## Razcar

That's a great story, I love that you see potential in those older boats. I'm the same way, and it's great to get out on the water. I have an O'Day 20, and I'm seeing that I'll be working my way up to a 35+ footer in a couple of years. We're already planning a Bahamas bareboat next spring to see what it's like in a larger boat.


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## wolfenzee

I am a poor sailor and am about to leave land behind me...as far as the origins of this thread during my layover in San Fransisco I will be seeking out a young crew member to crew to the tropics....someone who can not afford their own boat and quite probably can just afford to squeak by in the socioeconomic culture that makes up SF.


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## mark2gmtrans

I would be willing to bet that more young people would go sailing if they suffered a major breakdown of the internet and all of the nintendos quit working...either that or you made a line of cruiser boats that had a game controller to steer by instead of a wheel or tiller.


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## JonEisberg

mark2gmtrans said:


> I would be willing to bet that more young people would go sailing if they suffered a major breakdown of the internet and all of the nintendos quit working...*either that or you made a line of cruiser boats that had a game controller to steer by instead of a wheel or tiller.*


I don't know, joysticks come pretty close to such an ideal...

Or, how about Etap's vertical tiller? Has to be one of the weirdest setups I've ever seen...


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## mark2gmtrans

JonEisberg said:


> I don't know, joysticks come pretty close to such an ideal...
> 
> Or, how about Etap's vertical tiller? Has to be one of the weirdest setups I've ever seen...


Holy crap you steer with a tennis racket LOL. I know I had one of them things that floats but gots no sails that had bowthrusters with a joystick, my stepson once asked if the chartplotter could be used with it to play video games...on a boat, in the ocean, porpoises swimming along beside us, the ships and yachts and all the rest to see and he wanted to play Halo on my chartplotter...


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## wolfenzee

I have tried to explain to a gamer how my nav program is sort of like a video game. You have the charts, tides, currents, can also get NOAA input that gives wind and wave hieght add to that speed, depth, GPS, AIS and radar input.....then trying to sail all at the same time you have a pretty complex video game. Thing is if you screw up...you don't just reset the game, it's real.


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## Razcar

wolfenzee said:


> I have tried to explain to a gamer how my nav program is sort of like a video game. You have the charts, tides, currents, can also get NOAA input that gives wind and wave hieght add to that speed, depth, GPS, AIS and radar input.....then trying to sail all at the same time you have a pretty complex video game. Thing is if you screw up...you don't just reset the game, it's real.


I think it's charming how you try to bridge a generational gap with the chart plotter. But ultimately let's face it, sailing is boring compared to other stuff a young kid could be doing. I think you have to have different sensibilities as a young person to have sailing appeal to you.

A previous poster wrote how they liked motor boating much better than sailing since it's almost as simple as driving a car. sailing will always face that challenge because it's not like driving a car. It's complicated for a newbie, you need a little intuition to get the hang of it. The industry needs inspirational teachers. Gadgets can only get you so far.


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## wolfenzee

Razcar said:


> I think it's charming how you try to bridge a generational gap with the chart plotter. But ultimately let's face it, sailing is boring compared to other stuff a young kid could be doing. I think you have to have different sensibilities as a young person to have sailing appeal to you.
> 
> A previous poster wrote how they liked motor boating much better than sailing since it's almost as simple as driving a car. sailing will always face that challenge because it's not like driving a car. It's complicated for a newbie, you need a little intuition to get the hang of it. The industry needs inspirational teachers. Gadgets can only get you so far.


I learned how to sail before gadgets....when I was 15, my brother gave me a book called "The Craft of Sail" which approached sailing from the point of view of applied physics....I told my brother I know how to sail I don't need this...but I just "felt" stuff....after reading this book...."Oh that's how why it works". Things like vectors, lift, lateral resistance, etc.....I just (not to sound corny) was one with my boat.....all of my sensory input was far more than is possible for a video game...it is going on all around you...not just a small vid screen in front of you, the wind on your cheek, the shape of the sail, tension of the line, the ripples on the waves, etc....the little things here and there...far more complex....and you really have to think.
Of the people who would be best suited for my crew, the mindset, they are either skiers, backpackers, surfers, rock climbers...not all of our youth is plugged into a video port.


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## Razcar

wolfenzee said:


> Of the people who would be best suited for my crew, the mindset, they are either skiers, backpackers, surfers, rock climbers...not all of our youth is plugged into a video port.


I think you touched on one of the keys to this question. There are those kids who prefer to play outside with sticks and rocks, build forts, swing from trees... those are potential future sailors.

Kids that get bored on camping trips or insist on bringing their ipod/ipad everywhere, obsessively check their social media, or insist on 'checking out' when confronted with new challenges... likely won't be interested in sailing.


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## northoceanbeach

I wonder if that is it. The kids and electronics. I don't know enough about kids these days to comment myself although if that isn't the cause it has got to be a major factor. It seems like alot of you on here think that's te case so Ill believe you. Every post above does seem to agree.


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## Razcar

northoceanbeach said:


> I wonder if that is it. The kids and electronics. I don't know enough about kids these days to comment myself although if that isn't the cause it has got to be a major factor. It seems like alot of you on here think that's te case so Ill believe you. Every post above does seem to agree.


I'd hate to generalize this to all 'kids', which in this forum could easily be anyone younger than 35. There are certainly a lot of great young people out there to prove us wrong. I could post the blogs of a few that have already made an impression on me if you folks wish.


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## Capt Len

It seems to me that it's not only younger wanna bees that are hesitant about taking on the activity ( if they've' given it any thought at all) When older, established wanna bees can't get their act together,dreaming of a new Benni, water maker, latest plotter and AIS etc, to cover a lack of skills,the hurdles to realization of ones desires starts simply by starting. Fortunately different dreams exist and most will remain unfulfilled regardless of age.


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## BentSailor

I have kids and I've been trying (with mixed success) to get them interested in sailing. I'm hoping my anecdotal experience can provide some (small) insight into why they aren't as interested today as they used to be.

Humans are (in general) wired to get the most amount of benefit for the least amount of effort. It's where almost all technological progress comes from (i.e. _"This machine/design/invention makes the job easier &/or require less effort"_). Personally, I'm not one who will walk ten kilometres to the store when I can drive (though I'd probably walk one or two). It's not a new aspect of humanity, it's just easier to indulge in today.

When I was a kid, there wasn't much in the way of instant entertainment, effort free socialisation, and/or thrills at the push of a button. Computer games were at the level of Pac-man requiring us going to the arcade to play them, socialising was done in person because the alternatives were snail-mail & one-to-one phone calls, and adventures were either lived personally or read about in a book.

Now, I can play games on my smartphone (the size of my wallet) that far exceed the complexity & entertainment value of the arcade games I could play as a kid. That smartphone makes my socialisation instant, always on, and connected to everyone I want to chat to. Finally, where I had to swing a stick around as my sword as a kid - I've got game controllers in my living room that will show me as a muscle-bound hero on a television the size of my dining table, swinging a sword exactly as I am whilst fighting monsters I can see.

Kids are still interested in the same things we are - fun, socialisation, and adventure. It's just that technology enables them to get it with far less effort. As such, my "successes" in getting the kids interested in sailing stem from elements of it they cannot get in the living room or from their phone or game console. Dolphins, the peace you get when you 'sync' with the wind & waves, how nice it is to actually be disconnected from everyone for a while, and being a pirate (the kids love that  ).

As far as _young adults_ are concerned, debt comes to mind as a big differentiator between twenty/thirty years back and now. It's _real_ easy to get debt and far harder to drop the day-job for an adventure when you've got some already. Almost every adventurer I've come across either has money/parents behind them (alleviating them of needing to make money to cover the debt) or managed through luck or upbringing to avoid the debt-trap.


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## wolfenzee

If I had to pin point it I'd say the socioeconomics.....being stuck in one place to be able to sweak out a living and a culture that would rather people stay in one place (sort of a double barrel control thing)....add to that people can't grasp the concept that living in a nicer place place is actually easier. cheaper and takes less work.


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## mark2gmtrans

Capt Len said:


> It seems to me that it's not only younger wanna bees that are hesitant about taking on the activity ( if they've' given it any thought at all) When older, established wanna bees can't get their act together,dreaming of a new Benni, water maker, latest plotter and AIS etc, to cover a lack of skills,the hurdles to realization of ones desires starts simply by starting. Fortunately different dreams exist and most will remain unfulfilled regardless of age.


Is it wrong for a person to desire to take advantage of technology? No, it is just smart to equip your boat with the best technology that you are comfortable with, if you are not comfortable at all with technology then go with the minimum. If you are technically savvy and know how to use the technology then go with the best you can afford, but also make sure you have the ability to sail without it because from a generator to a roller furling sail system at some time all of it will be out of commission or need some work to get it up and working properly.

I personally would not want to sail without a watermaker, a chart plotter, radar, VHF radio, and a working toilet... If you like sailing thirsty, blind, deaf, and crapping in a five gallon bucket all I ask is that you do not tie up next to me and dump it over the side in a beautiful anchorage where I am tied up. I will gladly give you some fresh water from my system and spray you with my fresh water wash down. LOL

Seriously sailing with the best tech is not a sign of a lack of skill, and it cannot replace the knowledge it takes to sail without the tech. I learned to sail the easy way, I bought an O'day 27 and it had next to nothing on it, it was a real piece of crap that I bought very cheap. I got it, got on it, knew that wind blows sails and sails that are full of wind move boats, and I had owned large powerboats before. I motored out into the Gulf of Mexico where no one would be in the way, and no one would see me screwing up... and I learned to sail. I made a lot of mistakes, I got lost a few times, I faced the lions, tigers, and bears that everyone no matter if they went to some sailing school or they taught themselves or grew up on boat will face. I still know nothing, nothing at all compared to some people I know, but I learn every day. I have singlehanded in storms, I have sailed a few thousand miles on both powerboats and sailboats of various sizes. I have repaired the things I tore up while learning not to tear things up, and I have built and rebuilt a few boats. And I still know nothing at all other than when I am at sea I am at the mercy of God and His oceans, because I am but a small and pitifully frail creature in a sea full of danger and wondrous things.

If I have any passion, any dream, any goal it is to sail again. I will say that John Masefield said it best:

I must go down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky,
And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by,
And the wheel's kick and the wind's song and the white sail's shaking,
And a grey mist on the sea's face, and a grey dawn breaking.

I must go down to the seas again, for the call of the running tide
Is a wild call and a clear call that may not be denied;
And all I ask is a windy day with the white clouds flying,
And the flung spray and the blown spume, and the sea-gulls crying.

I must go down to the seas again, to the vagrant gypsy life,
To the gull's way and the whale's way, where the wind's like a whetted knife;
And all I ask is a merry yarn from a laughing fellow-rover,
And quiet sleep and a sweet dream when the long trick's over.

Mark


----------



## chall03

I think Mark/Capt Len you are onto something.

When the 20/30 somethings went sailing in the 70s/80s it was about your attitude, your courage, your ability to meet the challenge. It was a true adventure. They were doing it in small gadgetless boats.

Now we want it feel like an adventure, but we don't want it to be any riskier than watching an episode of Game of Thrones.

I like technology, hey I am a early thirty something. However it is difficult to find the balance between having an adventure, trying to buy your safety through gadgets(and yes there are older, wiser, and wealthier sailing folk that will tell you that NEED it all) and trying to use technology sensibly to assist you in your adventuring, without breaking the bank.


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## mark2gmtrans

chall03 said:


> I think Mark/Capt Len you are onto something.
> 
> When the 20/30 somethings went sailing in the 70s/80s it was about your attitude, your courage, your ability to meet the challenge. It was a true adventure. They were doing it in small gadgetless boats.
> 
> Now we want it feel like an adventure, but we don't want it to be any riskier than watching an episode of Game of Thrones.
> 
> I like technology, hey I am a early thirty something. However it is difficult to find the balance between having an adventure, trying to buy your safety through gadgets(and yes there are older, wiser, and wealthier sailing folk that will tell you that NEED it all) and trying to use technology sensibly to assist you in your adventuring, without breaking the bank.


We have to keep our priorities in line and our money too, and so we have to choose our toys cautiously. I would love to have a huge 80' boat with everything on it with a 22' boat for a tender, but I can only afford about half of that, so I will be in about a 40 footer with an 11 foot dinghy, and even that is going to be previously tested for about 35 years LOL.


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## chall03

Yeah. 

Our boat is 35ft and 24 years old. 

When we went cruising we spent money on new standing rigging, good sails, basic but what I considered important safeties, and then what was left went on the gadgets. As a result we had no AIS, no radar, and our chartplotter was a temperamental laptop( we got it for free). 

Our dinghy is a Zodiac 2.3m inflatable that ummm has been patched ummmm more than once.


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## mark2gmtrans

chall03 said:


> Yeah.
> 
> Our boat is 35ft and 24 years old.
> 
> When we went cruising we spent money on new standing rigging, good sails, basic but what I considered important safeties, and then what was left went on the gadgets. As a result we had no AIS, no radar, and our chartplotter was a temperamental laptop( we got it for free).
> 
> Our dinghy is a Zodiac 2.3m inflatable that ummm has been patched ummmm more than once.


I have been buying the gadgets one at a time, before I even buy the next boat, but I know more or less what I am going to spend on the boat and I have a very reasonable budget for that coming together. I will pay cash, because going into debt is not part of my long term goals, and also I really would like to spend my monthly income on things like fuel and food, and such and not on the boat itself. I will have radar, though it may be cheap and used and not be the latest doohickey, but I think I can swing a pretty decent integrated setup, and with the laptop and stuff I should be okay. I have a fairly good plan of where I am going and how to get there and I am aggressively pursuing that plan to the exclusion of some other temporary onshore comforts. A little sacrifice now will pay for the watermaker I am going to order and install on the boat, and that will mean showers every day in the future on the boat LOL. (not that I am not showering every day now).


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## chall03

mark2gmtrans said:


> I have been buying the gadgets one at a time, before I even buy the next boat, but I know more or less what I am going to spend on the boat and I have a very reasonable budget for that coming together. I will pay cash, because going into debt is not part of my long term goals, and also I really would like to spend my monthly income on things like fuel and food, and such and not on the boat itself. I will have radar, though it may be cheap and used and not be the latest doohickey, but I think I can swing a pretty decent integrated setup, and with the laptop and stuff I should be okay. I have a fairly good plan of where I am going and how to get there and I am aggressively pursuing that plan to the exclusion of some other temporary onshore comforts. A little sacrifice now will pay for the watermaker I am going to order and install on the boat, and that will mean showers every day in the future on the boat LOL. (not that I am not showering every day now).


LOL. Yep. Yep and Yep.

Man. you just sound better prepared than me!

Dont get me wrong, I want radar, I( and my wife x 100) really want a watermaker, and we are now refitting the boat to meet the demands of future adventures, but when we were faced with the decision to go without or not go......well we went


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## bljones

mark2gmtrans said:


> Is it wrong for a person to desire to take advantage of technology? No, it is just smart to equip your boat with the best technology that you are comfortable with, if you are not comfortable at all with technology then go with the minimum. If you are technically savvy and know how to use the technology then go with the best you can afford, but also make sure you have the ability to sail without it because from a generator to a roller furling sail system at some time all of it will be out of commission or need some work to get it up and working properly.
> 
> I personally would not want to sail without a watermaker, a chart plotter, radar, VHF radio, and a working toilet... If you like sailing thirsty, blind, deaf, and crapping in a five gallon bucket all I ask is that you do not tie up next to me and dump it over the side in a beautiful anchorage


You don't need a watermaker to be able to enjoy a shower.

You also don't need a watermaker to avoid sailing thirsty. The vast majority of long term cruisers do not have water makers.
You don't need a chartplotter to avoid sailing blind. You need charts and the ability to read them. Radar? I bet that the majority of cruisers function just fine without it.

In fact, a whole lot of people are cruising happily and contentedly and successfully without that which you view as a necessity...
and the best part is, when those "necessities" crap out, they are still able to cruise.

Technology is a great way to enjoy cruising, but not having it is no excuse NOT to cut the lines. In fact, it's better to build the skills and add the technology after. And, by not making technology a priority, you can cut the lines that much sooner.

After another membrane has crapped out on your four-figure watermaker, i'll be happy to loan you a bottle of water. 

Go now. Tomorrow ain't guaranteed.


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## mark2gmtrans

chall03 said:


> LOL. Yep. Yep and Yep.
> 
> Man. you just sound better prepared than me!
> 
> Dont get me wrong, I want radar, I( and my wife x 100) really want a watermaker, and we are now refitting the boat to meet the demands of future adventures, but when we were faced with the decision to go without or not go......well we went


I did that once, it worked out okay, but my case may be different from yours, and my situation is most likely different as well. I am single, and may or may not stay that way. I am blessed with the opportunity to earn really good money doing something I am good at and enjoy, and I am taking advantage of the situation while I can do so. Once I get on board that is where I will live for at least the next five years, and when I leave I will not return to the US for at least two to three years, and may be permanently gone, but that is not a problem because I have skills that allow me to work almost anywhere in the world.

I am planning to sail down the coast of South America, will most likely spend some time in southern Chile, where I have friends and temporary employment whenever I am there, and then go on to visit the islands of Fiji and Tahiti and so forth. I speak, read, and write Spanish, and have enough French and Portuguese to get by with a little patience from others. I am a diesel mechanic, heavy equipment operator, and transportation logistics specialist with experience in the oil and gas industry, so I am truly blessed to know people from around the world who can help me find work in a whole lot of countries. I spent a lot of time dreaming, thinking, planning and then actually doing a lot of work to help me reach my goals, and even so I am still going to be jumping out there on a sail and a prayer, but I love it.

If I had a wife and kids who were young I would never be able to do this, but I do not, so I am just going to do it and see where I land. If you are doing something like this with your wife that is awesome, and hopefully one day soon we can talk about the places we are and where we will go next. I started a circumnavigation once with friends on their boat, and some family issues with the friends cut it short after only nine months. I am going on the trip on my on boat, though I am not particularly aiming at a circumnavigation.

As to the watermaker, I have spent a ton of time looking into various systems from various sources, and I think I have the one I will get pinned down. I weighed the cost of buying one against the cost of water bought from marinas, bottled water to drink and I am thinking that the benefits of having one will make the purchase worthwhile. I know that I will spend a good chunk of money on it, but really it is not that bad when you cost out what water would run you to buy each month and throw in the cost of marina slips that would be needed when you want to do laundry or shower in port. My thinking is that it will actually save me money over the five to ten years I plan to be on the boat.

It is magnificent that you are on the way to your dream.


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## mark2gmtrans

bljones said:


> You don't need a watermaker to be able to enjoy a shower.
> 
> You also don't need a watermaker to avoid sailing thirsty. The vast majority of long term cruisers do not have water makers.
> You don't need a chartplotter to avoid sailing blind. You need charts and the ability to read them. Radar? I bet that the majority of cruisers function just fine without it.
> 
> In fact, a whole lot of people are cruising happily and contentedly and successfully without that which you view as a necessity...
> and the best part is, when those "necessities" crap out, they are still able to cruise.
> 
> Technology is a great way to enjoy cruising, but not having it is no excuse NOT to cut the lines. In fact, it's better to build the skills and add the technology after. And, by not making technology a priority, you can cut the lines that much sooner.
> 
> After another membrane has crapped out on your four-figure watermaker, i'll be happy to loan you a bottle of water.
> 
> Go now. Tomorrow ain't guaranteed.


Yep, none of those things are necessary, and I do certainly have the skills to go without them and have gone without them. I also have the ability to go with them so I will.

Oh and so you know, I have made a couple of long passages without a watermaker, and showering with a little pump up sprayer with a veggie washer on the end of it is not nearly as nice at getting the crust off your sweaty arse as a ten minute shower with hot water. I know guys who carry more bottles of water than they have room for, and all of that plastic has to go somewhere for the next thousand years.

You will never have to loan me a bottle of water, and I have the skill to maintain the watermaker. I have an RO system in my home here on the dry land and I do not seem to remember ever having to repair it, since I do the maintenance on it as I should. The water the here in this part of Texas is horrible, looks like milk coming out of the tap if you do not have an RO system, yet I have never had it go down. I think the issue you have with the tech is sort of related to envy, and that is sad. I never have said that I would not go without the stuff, in fact I said I had and would prefer not to do so again.

Charts take up room, get outdated after storms, get wet, or torn and are cumbersome, a chartplotter does not navigate for you, it is simply an electronic chart system tied into your GPS. If you are navigating with a sextant, compass and clock or starsights then more power to you, I can, but geez louise, why would I when I have the ability to purchase a good system for only about $2,000.00 that will tie in the radar, the GPS, the Depth Sounder, fishfinder and my engine data as well as some other signals? I know it is not cheap, but I do not have to rely on ten different instruments in order to navigate. I can tie it into either an autohelm or windvane, and it will help me to safely pilot the boat in the dark in areas where I am not familiar with the traffic patterns or the underwater structures with greater accuracy than a paper chart. If I am less of a man because I use technology then so what, I am not here to get into a pissing contest with anyone, I am here to enjoy myself.

If you have $2000.00 in paper charts and guides and I spend the same on my network controller/GPS Chartplotter, we both spent $2000.00 and we should both be able to get there. I do not appreciate the snotty attitude that anyone with more than flashlights on the mast and a bucket lid with a toilet seat duct taped to it attached to the rail is somehow less capable than you are when you sail in a stripped down boat with no engine or batteries or running water.


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## downeast450

bljones said:


> You don't need a watermaker to be able to enjoy a shower.
> 
> You also don't need a watermaker to avoid sailing thirsty. The vast majority of long term cruisers do not have water makers.
> You don't need a chartplotter to avoid sailing blind. You need charts and the ability to read them. Radar? I bet that the majority of cruisers function just fine without it.
> 
> In fact, a whole lot of people are cruising happily and contentedly and successfully without that which you view as a necessity...
> and the best part is, when those "necessities" crap out, they are still able to cruise.
> 
> Technology is a great way to enjoy cruising, but not having it is no excuse NOT to cut the lines. In fact, it's better to build the skills and add the technology after. And, by not making technology a priority, you can cut the lines that much sooner.
> 
> After another membrane has crapped out on your four-figure watermaker, i'll be happy to loan you a bottle of water.
> 
> Go now. Tomorrow ain't guaranteed.


Agreed! I would upgrade the priority for radar if you want to comfortably and safely cruise "Downeast". Charts will do everything you need but keeping an eye out in the fog is a great help. The bozos who motor along in the fog at speed relying on their chart plotters to guide them are becoming a growing hazard. They are not on the charts!  I still use my hand held Garmin for quick checks and as a back up for "bread crumbs" if the fog is visible on the horizon. It can roll in faster than you can get away from it and having "eyes" when you can't see the anchor roller from the hem is a comfort. There are lots of other reasons why radar is a great tool!

Down


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## TheWollard

I'm amazed at all of the Old Salts on this thread who have learned to turn on their computer, and even manage to use the internet, just to complain about the young. We're living in the future, and the future is good. HAHA.

Video games have no impact on the sailing population. Don't forget that all of you sailors who cast off decades ago were a COUNTER CULTURE. You were not everybody. Your peers were going to college and buying into consumerism. Your generation was hooked by Madison avenue, line and sinker. 

A very small group took to the sea in your day, relatively speaking. We are not so different.


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## downeast450

TheWollard said:


> I'm amazed at all of the Old Salts on this thread who have learned to turn on their computer, and even manage to use the internet, just to complain about the young. We're living in the future, and the future is good. HAHA.
> 
> Video games have no impact on the sailing population. Don't forget that all of you sailors who cast off decades ago were a COUNTER CULTURE. You were not everybody. Your peers were going to college and buying into consumerism. Your generation was hooked by Madison avenue, line and sinker.
> 
> A very small group took to the sea in your day, relatively speaking. We are not so different.


What? You are welcome! I think? Perhaps not you. My last advanced degree was in computer science at age 50, almost 20 years ago! I am thinking when you were still in short pants! 5 years ago I retired as a network administrator who had built a 6 channel Cisco wireless network supporting over 1000 wireless clients, servers and security for Novell, Windows, Apple and Linux!

I own and manage several .coms to support the realestate company I started in 1995. If the future is good you can thank us. I purchased my first sailboat when I was 8. My first calculator was a 5 function Heathkit that cost $120.00 a long time ago. I still have it as a reminder of OUR progress! What could you possibly know about who and how many of us "took to the sea"?

Learn some manners young spud!  Learn to sail by the stars while you are at it. If you know how to turn the pages of a book here is a volume you could start with. Celestial Navigation for Yachtsmen by Mary Blewitt. It beats the hell out of a computer game and I have designed a few of those.

I am beholding to computer games for the pressure they have taken off the trout!

Down


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## mark2gmtrans

downeast450 said:


> I am beholding to computer games for the pressure they have taken off the trout!
> 
> Down


I would also like to thank those games for the pressure they have taken off the hot girls who like to go sailing with slightly older farts :laugher:laugher:laugher


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## TheWollard

First, I'm still in short pants. I live in Florida. :laugher

Second, your post makes a great point. There have been computer nerds for generations. Your love of programming and fancy calculators didn't keep you from experiencing life, and today's video games are the same diversion for kids. I spent the better part of my twenties boating AND playing countless hours of video games, all while establishing myself in the corporate world so I could afford to spend most days in short pants.

I get frustrated when older folks blame modern technology for this and that while updating their facebook status from a smartphone. You seem to get it, how about some perspective from the other Silver Tuna's?

(note, I've been cracking myself up coming up with funny names for old sailors: Silver Tuna's, Grey Gulls, Teaks, etc.)


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## mark2gmtrans

Now, in all seriousness the issue is not money. It is not computer games. It is not that the young people are too easily distracted or become bored too easily. I believe it is much worse. 

In our schools today we start teaching children that competition is bad about the time they should have been learning to become winners. I was shocked to learn that in kids sports today they actually play without keeping score so that nobody wins or loses. We who sail know that in life there are winners, and there are also losers, and we have been on both sides of that equation and we prefer being winners. We strive to do more than just the status quo, we work hard in our jobs to save money to pursue our goals and dreams. We know that going into debt is a form of slavery, it is putting the control of your life into the hands of the entity or person loaning you the money. So, being averse to being enslaved, we save our money and pay cash for boats, we work on them ourselves, and we come to see the beauty in a thing well done. We feel the pain of moving our bodies in ways that we have not done in a long while when we cram ourselves into some tight spot in and awkward position to repair or replace some part. We have had the sore shoulders and neck that come from sanding a hull or grinding out those little dimples and bubbles where the bottom has voids in it that fill with water and cause hull problems. We learn to use tools that we would not normally use, we learn to be self sufficient, to stand alone and survive against the elements, and we come out winners. Proud to have accomplished the feats which we have accomplished, and we know that there were times when we failed, and it was bitter.

Teach a young person to win, and to suffer loss and recover from it and persevere against obstacles. Teach a young person that losing is not a permanent condition unless you allow it to become one. Teach a young person that it actually takes hard work and paying attention to detail in order to succeed in life or in sports and in sailing and you will see young people achieve excellence.

If you are not teaching a young person to sail, you are part of the reason why there are fewer young people involved in sailing and cruising. If you teach a young man to go in the right way, he will not depart from it when he is older. The inverse is also true.


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## TomMaine

TheWollard said:


> First, I'm still in short pants. I live in Florida. :laugher
> 
> You seem to get it, how about some perspective from the other Silver Tuna's?
> 
> (note, I've been cracking myself up coming up with funny names for old sailors: Silver Tuna's, Grey Gulls, Teaks, etc.)


We're just the next generation of Archie Bunkers.  Nothing's changed, including aging and cynicism, which I think is partly hereditary.

Kids are just as fantastic today as they were in the last generation. The great thing I see are the improvements every generation gleans. I've watched a whole town of kids go from tykes to adults along with my two kids. It's amazing how much has changed for the better. There's always some stuff that isn't so great, too(same as always).

There's a lot of kids that sail here(coast of Maine),at least as many as when I grew up. I didn't know any kids cruising when I was in my 20's. I'm a teak, I guess.


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## bljones

mark2gmtrans said:


> ... I think the issue you have with the tech is sort of related to envy, and that is sad.
> 
> .


No, it's not envy. If that is all you got from my post,. you missed my point entirely.
See, you're not out there.

because you're still here, making the cash to buy the stuff you believe you NEED out there. 
And every day you spend here is one more day you're not out there, and it's never 100% guaranteed that tomorrow's gonna come.

I understand that you want the luxuries and like the technology. I get that. i like cool stuff too. and I understand that you think your experience with freshwater RO on the hard in texas qualifies you to understand that nothing will go wrong with a saltwater watermaker in the middle of nowhere , or the power system to power it. But, just in case, you know, you might not know everything and have thought of every contingency, or considered other options, many cruisers do quite well with a rainwater catchment system, or they carry jerrycans. When i lightheartedly offered you a bottle of water, i didn't mean to suggest that i carry cases of bottled water. We keep a handful of empty bottles on board as loaners- too often we meet people on the water, who underestimated how much they would need to drink on an afternoon daysail. many cruisers with watermakers have jugs and collection systems as a backup- because stuff does break. when you least want it to. even when maintained religiously.
another point- do you think your chartplotter is any more accurate than charts "after a storm?"

I don't think i know anybody who has $2000 worth of charts on board. In fact, i'd be hard pressed to find a way to spend $2000 on charts for a circumnavigation

No i don't have tech envy. I'm posting this from my boat, which maybe the most ridiculously overequipped 23 footer ever. I'm just pointing out that you don't NEED the stuff you WANT to go cruising. You just need to work longer to pay for it, which means you don't leave sooner, which means you spend less time out there....
and it's always cheaper to get all the gear you want installed in the caribbean.

I don't envy anybody who is still here, and not out there.


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## mark2gmtrans

bljones said:


> No, it's not envy. If that is all you got from my post,. you missed my point entirely.
> See, you're not out there.
> 
> because you're still here, making the cash to buy the stuff you believe you NEED out there.
> And every day you spend here is one more day you're not out there, and it's never 100% guaranteed that tomorrow's gonna come.
> 
> I understand that you want the luxuries and like the technology. I get that. i like cool stuff too. and I understand that you think your experience with freshwater RO on the hard in texas qualifies you to understand that nothing will go wrong with a saltwater watermaker in the middle of nowhere , or the power system to power it. But, just in case, you know, you might not know everything and have thought of every contingency, or considered other options, many cruisers do quite well with a rainwater catchment system, or they carry jerrycans. When i lightheartedly offered you a bottle of water, i didn't mean to suggest that i carry cases of bottled water. We keep a handful of empty bottles on board as loaners- too often we meet people on the water, who underestimated how much they would need to drink on an afternoon daysail. many cruisers with watermakers have jugs and collection systems as a backup- because stuff does break. when you least want it to. even when maintained religiously.
> another point- do you think your chartplotter is any more accurate than charts "after a storm?"
> 
> I don't think i know anybody who has $2000 worth of charts on board. In fact, i'd be hard pressed to find a way to spend $2000 on charts for a circumnavigation
> 
> No i don't have tech envy. I'm posting this from my boat, which maybe the most ridiculously overequipped 23 footer ever. I'm just pointing out that you don't NEED the stuff you WANT to go cruising. You just need to work longer to pay for it, which means you don't leave sooner, which means you spend less time out there....
> and it's always cheaper to get all the gear you want installed in the caribbean.
> 
> I don't envy anybody who is still here, and not out there.


You are right, I am not CURRENTLY out there. I have been WAY out there, more than once. I have done a wee bit of sailing, both on my own boats, and on the boats of friends. I have been cruising, and not in local waters. I have dealt with the officials in foreign ports as a captain on my own vessel, gotten clearances in and out and the zarpes needed to show to the next port captain. I have sailed in a tropical storm that was making for hurricane strength at the time it hit us, and I have sailed into unknown poorly charted waters, very very slowly and carefully. I have yet to gouge a hole in my hull, because I know that I need to go slow, and I know that the charts in some areas are poor at best, and just plain nuts in others.

The amount I was talking about for paper was not just for charts, but also for guides and so forth, and while the number seems high, trust me a circumnavigation can spend a lot on charts alone, not including guides to bays and anchorages.

I have had both the manual and the electric RO water making systems on my boats, so I know about the problems, you see I am not a virgin sailor, I am just not on or owning a boat today, but that is because I sold mine in order to be able to work here to prepare to buy another one equipped to sail around the world. I am not looking to sail around a lake, or a bay, but around a continent...or two.

I rarely encounter issues with charts either electronic or paper here in the US, but sail to Brazil, Surinam, French Guyana, Guyana, Venezuela, and so forth and you will find quiet a few issues with charts. You will love that radar overlaying the chart and sonar data, it will help you to use all of your senses and also give you a way to single hand in very shallow waters in a much larger vessel than you could without it.

If you take into account the need to update charts often, especially in areas where the coast is hit often by storms, you would think about the whole idea of using all of the above, paper, GPS, Radar, Sonar, and anything else you can get, so that you sail informed and in safety. I know that you may not have been in the places I have been, and you can rest assured that you have been in places I have not, but when I stand at the helm under the stars and look up at the view above my masts I have a strong desire to sail as safely as I can while still enjoying the thrill of it all. I desire little more than I desire to return to the sea.

My last boat had a few goodies on it, the one before had more and the one before that had almost nothing, I learned to sail by doing it, I read books, and studied a bit, but I finally just bought myself a boat, and went out and sailed it. I have since gone to some classes, and such, and I intend to go again, but I have sailed over 10,000 miles in blue water.... so I may have some idea of what I need to make me feel comfortable, and keep my crew, when I have one, safe.


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## bljones

I wasn't questioning your creds, I was questioning how you got envy from my post.
but thanks for the info.

if you think charts are expensive, wait until you price nav cards.


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## mark2gmtrans

bljones said:


> I wasn't questioning your creds, I was questioning how you got envy from my post.
> but thanks for the info.
> 
> if you think charts are expensive, wait until you price nav cards.


I have, and they are high as all get out, but they also have updates that come along fairly often included in the prices most of the time. Also when you buy the original stupid expensive unit it comes loaded with the US charts, the Caribbean, and a deep discount on others when you bundle them at the same time. I may have to work one more month in the oilfield to pay for all of them, but since I am able and the space I save on board can be used for other things I am willing.

I have looked into getting some national charts for other countries that are in the formats needed, and are done by the equivalent of our NOAA/USGS and so forth. There are some, though you have to dig deep to find them and they are not always as good as the ones you pay for, so I am loading them onto a rugged tablet pc and a rugged laptop as references. I also have loaded quite a few ebooks and guides, which I get at a reduced price because they are electronic and not on paper. What we must remember is that the chart plotter only tells where we are, where we have been and a possible route to our next destination if we ask for it. It cannot sail the boat alone, it can help a lot, kind of like crew, or the auto helm or wind vane, but it will not climb the mast to unstick a pulley that has jammed. It will not make me breakfast, or coffee or do some other crew type things below decks ( I like my crew female and friendly, but that is not always the case on either of those) and it may talk to me, but it cannot tell me stories about where it has been and the funny little guy with the purple boat. This is why I get on here, that and to piss tropic cat off in another forum...


----------



## JonEisberg

mark2gmtrans said:


> ... We strive to do more than just the status quo, we work hard in our jobs to save money to pursue our goals and dreams. We know that going into debt is a form of slavery, it is putting the control of your life into the hands of the entity or person loaning you the money. *So, being averse to being enslaved, we save our money and pay cash for boats, we work on them ourselves, and we come to see the beauty in a thing well done.*


While I subscribe to that approach myself, I think you may be overestimating the percentage of sailors today who do likewise... I'm generally laughed at on sailing forums at whenever I refer to my father's Old School words of advice to "Never, EVER finance a toy...", and I can think of few others I know who've done as I have, and limited themselves to a boat they could pay cash for, or afford to self-insure or potentially lose... I'm certainly not seeing it in the delivery business, I'd venture I could count on one hand the number of clients over the last couple of decades who have not financed the purchase of their boats...



bljones said:


> I don't think i know anybody who has $2000 worth of charts on board. In fact, i'd be hard pressed to find a way to spend $2000 on charts for a circumnavigation...


Well, plan a cruise of Atlantic Canada - Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, and Labrador - and you'll find you can easily run up such a tab... No need to ask me how I know this... (grin)


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## mark2gmtrans

JonEisberg said:


> While I subscribe to that approach myself, I think you may be overestimating the percentage of sailors today who do likewise... I'm generally laughed at on sailing forums at whenever I refer to my father's Old School words of advice to "Never, EVER finance a toy...", and I can think of few others I know who've done as I have, and limited themselves to a boat they could pay cash for, or afford to self-insure or potentially lose... I'm certainly not seeing it in the delivery business, I'd venture I could count on one hand the number of clients over the last couple of decades who have not financed the purchase of their boats...
> 
> Well, plan a cruise of Atlantic Canada - Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, and Labrador - and you'll find you can easily run up such a tab... No need to ask me how I know this... (grin)


Man that is beautiful! And I was not just pulling the numbers out of me bilge, I have not had to buy them in a long while but cruise the coast from Corpus Christi Texas down to Sao Luis Brazil, make a few stops in the Caribbean and then come back up...it ain't cheap for charts.


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## wolfenzee

I don't want to sound like a conspiracy nut but....our government would rather people stay in one place, doing one thing and staying that way. The way the job markets are set up, out culture, our sociology, marketing....it all stresses we should follow the same path, college, job, house, wife and kids, staying in the same job devoting out life to progressing in that job....our economy reflects this too....at one time you saved up your money by working all your life then retired to reap the benefits of your work....now a days we live in a debtor society, through credit you can emulate people in a higher position than you are in...you can reach all those goals a "successful" individual is supposed to gain NOW....you just have to go into debt and pay on this all your life. This worked when it was understood you WILL advance in your job, you WILL make more money and your employment WILL be stable and guarantee success/advancement....this isn't working any more. Marketing making you think you NEED a 6 figure boat to do anything doesn't help much either. People no long seek to enjoy life....the idea is a remote dream.
The "youth" (or anyone else for that matter) no longer seek to pursue the dream of sailing off into the tropical sunset


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## downeast450

JonEisberg said:


> While I subscribe to that approach myself, I think you may be overestimating the percentage of sailors today who do likewise... I'm generally laughed at on sailing forums at whenever I refer to my father's Old School words of advice to "Never, EVER finance a toy...", and I can think of few others I know who've done as I have, and limited themselves to a boat they could pay cash for, or afford to self-insure or potentially lose... I'm certainly not seeing it in the delivery business, I'd venture I could count on one hand the number of clients over the last couple of decades who have not financed the purchase of their boats...
> 
> Well, plan a cruise of Atlantic Canada - Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, and Labrador - and you'll find you can easily run up such a tab... No need to ask me how I know this... (grin)


You mean you can finance a boat? Why would anyone do such a thing! They cost enough to own without paying someone a finance charge for the opportunity. Never! I am with your dad on this one Jon!

Want to sell some of those charts? Cheap? 

Down


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## wolfenzee

downeast450 said:


> You mean you can finance a boat? Why would anyone do such a thing! They cost enough to own without paying someone a finance charge for the opportunity. Never! I am with your dad on this one Jon!
> 
> Want to sell some of those charts? Cheap?
> 
> Down


If you finance a boat in the US you are required to have it documented so if you leave the country and default on the loan the USCG can follow you out of the country to retrieve it.
The purpose behind financing a boat is just like the housing industry, it allows people to buy something they really couldn't afford to own otherwise and allows the marketing industry to pump up the prices of boats as well as make people think they NEED to own a 6 figure boat (of course just like a house they never really own it, the bank does).
One of the beauties of owning a boat, if/when the **** hits the fan, it's yours, you actually own your home.
Better to own something outright than pay the bank for the privilege of making it look like you are alot better off than you really are.....also you have more time to sail than having to work to pay off the bank.


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## downeast450

TheWollard said:


> First, I'm still in short pants. I live in Florida. :laugher
> 
> Second, your post makes a great point. There have been computer nerds for generations. Your love of programming and fancy calculators didn't keep you from experiencing life, and today's video games are the same diversion for kids. I spent the better part of my twenties boating AND playing countless hours of video games, all while establishing myself in the corporate world so I could afford to spend most days in short pants.
> 
> I get frustrated when older folks blame modern technology for this and that while updating their facebook status from a smartphone. You seem to get it, how about some perspective from the other Silver Tuna's?
> 
> (note, I've been cracking myself up coming up with funny names for old sailors: Silver Tuna's, Grey Gulls, Teaks, etc.)


I'll take "Silver Tuna".

Don't forget lots of sun screen. I owned homes in FL until a couple of years ago. Everglades City in the 60's before Mackle Brothers purchased Marco Island and built the first house there. We used to stop on any oyster bar and eat lunch. All we needed was a shucking knife and a six pack. Naples was my last FL address. Too crowded. Way to many small boats. We caught all the fish. Ooops! We will be down n March for a couple of weeks of paddling our "pro boat" to get ready for spring canoe racing up here.

Lots of good memories and some skin cancer as FL souvenirs. Enjoy and be prudent. I have my biking shorts on. It is 73 degrees and sunny here. Going for a bike ride before I head to the boat. Full moon soon. Should be a beautiful weekend.

Down


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## mark2gmtrans

wolfenzee said:


> I don't want to sound like a conspiracy nut but....our government would rather people stay in one place, doing one thing and staying that way. The way the job markets are set up, out culture, our sociology, marketing....it all stresses we should follow the same path, college, job, house, wife and kids, staying in the same job devoting out life to progressing in that job....our economy reflects this too....at one time you saved up your money by working all your life then retired to reap the benefits of your work....now a days we live in a debtor society, through credit you can emulate people in a higher position than you are in...you can reach all those goals a "successful" individual is supposed to gain NOW....you just have to go into debt and pay on this all your life. This worked when it was understood you WILL advance in your job, you WILL make more money and your employment WILL be stable and guarantee success/advancement....this isn't working any more. Marketing making you think you NEED a 6 figure boat to do anything doesn't help much either. People no long seek to enjoy life....the idea is a remote dream.
> The "youth" (or anyone else for that matter) no longer seek to pursue the dream of sailing off into the tropical sunset


Some of my friends think I am absolutely nuts because I have told them that I will be leaving soon, and will most likely not be back for a very long time. I know that most people never have the opportunity, but that is only because they do not make the opportunity for themselves.

I have often had younger people on my boat, some were girlfriends, some were just people whom I met and talked to about sailing and they wanted to see the boat and go for a little short sail. Every single one of them who has been on one of the boats I owned has always said to me that they would love to have a boat, but that they could not do it for some reason or the other. Most of these people had money, they were in the same social circle I am in, and make a good living. The reason they do not do things is because they have loaded themselves to the gills with stupid debt, impatient debt, and just plain foolish debt. I have never financed a boat, or a house, or even a car. I have owned all of the above, some nicer than others, but I was taught from a very young age that being indebted is being enslaved, and I would rather be the owner than the slave to the things I have in life.

I also think we have lost our sense of beauty, we just do not see the beauty in the simple things of life. I see a sunrise over a canyon here every single morning, yes I am up well before the sun every morning LOL, and I am impressed with it every day. I see the bees, the flowers, the cotton fields, the oil wells, and the sand, and yes it is all beautiful in its own way, but nothing moves me like the sea.

So here is a sunrise, and a seashore for you.


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## wolfenzee

I keep running into people who can't figure out why I would like to leave the PNW....the same people are convinced that there is no better place in the world than the US...and they have never left the US or even done much traveling in the US. It has been ingrained into people that where we are is a utopia.....we just have to climb the cooperate ladder to get there.


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## desert rat

you are right wolf i love Turkey< Italy. and Ireland. limited travel experience.


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## bljones

JonEisberg said:


> Well, plan a cruise of Atlantic Canada - Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, and Labrador - and you'll find you can easily run up such a tab... No need to ask me how I know this... (grin)


Point taken, jon.

BUT, plan a cruise of PACIFIC Canada, and you can get change back from $200:
Go figure.


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## mark2gmtrans

wolfenzee said:


> I keep running into people who can't figure out why I would like to leave the PNW....the same people are convinced that there is no better place in the world than the US...and they have never left the US or even done much traveling in the US. It has been ingrained into people that where we are is a utopia.....we just have to climb the cooperate ladder to get there.


I climbed the ladder, got knocked off, climbed it again and fell off, climbed it again and then I jumped off LOL.

I make as much clear money running a water truck here in the oilfield as most lawyers do in their first few years, and if I run a frac pump I make even more. I save almost all of my income, I sold the BMW, the Houston Galleria condo, and a bunch of useless crap and I live well within my means, and always have, and I am happier. I drive a 99 Dodge pickup that looks good and runs great, and I save my money for the important things...like a sailboat and stuff to go on it. I have been buying things and putting them away, getting stuff I need together, and studying some more, trying to learn as much as I can and develop a really good plan for when I leave. The way it looks now I may not come back, I have made friends all over the world and I am looking forward to seeing some of them again, and visiting places most people only get to see on the travel channel.

Mark


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## wolfenzee

mark2gmtrans said:


> I climbed the ladder, got knocked off, climbed it again and fell off, climbed it again and then I jumped off LOL.
> 
> I make as much clear money running a water truck here in the oilfield as most lawyers do in their first few years, and if I run a frac pump I make even more. I save almost all of my income, I sold the BMW, the Houston Galleria condo, and a bunch of useless crap and I live well within my means, and always have, and I am happier. I drive a 99 Dodge pickup that looks good and runs great, and I save my money for the important things...like a sailboat and stuff to go on it. I have been buying things and putting them away, getting stuff I need together, and studying some more, trying to learn as much as I can and develop a really good plan for when I leave. The way it looks now I may not come back, I have made friends all over the world and I am looking forward to seeing some of them again, and visiting places most people only get to see on the travel channel.
> 
> Mark


Our economy is supported by the manufacture, distribution, sales. storage. resale and disposal of totally useless stuff....the same economy is maintained with a belief that a certain level and or trappings must be achieved and maintained. I know very few people who actually put effort into simply enjoying life....rather they attempt to achieve unreachable preconceived goals


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## JonEisberg

bljones said:


> Point taken, jon.
> 
> BUT, plan a cruise of PACIFIC Canada, and you can get change back from $200:
> Go figure.


Well, if I were headed up the Inside Passage, I think I'd rather go with the greater detail afforded by this assortment... (grin)

I love Canadian charts, they're just beautifully done... The newly published series of northern Labrador are magnificent, one can easily spend an evening poring over those...


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## Sal Paradise

mark2gmtrans said:


> Some of my friends think I am absolutely nuts
> I have often had younger people on my boat, some were girlfriends, some were just people whom I met and talked to about sailing and they wanted to see the boat and go for a little short sail. Every single one of them who has been on one of the boats I owned has always said to me that they would love to have a boat, but that they could not do it for some reason or the other...


Mark,

99% of that is defense mechanism and rationalizing. Most people just feel safer staying home and mowing the lawn, or going to the mall and buying new jeans. In evolutionalry terms, most of us are descended from those who stayed safe. Stayed in the cave, stayed on shore, ran away from the tiger, etc... And in social terms , the herd stays together. Most people do.

To all of which I can only reply that I would love to mow my lawn more and I would love to shop at the mall more, but I just can't. I just can't seem to manage it. :laugher

Then again, I know from my great aunt that my ancestors were sailors and stubborn loners who did whatever they wanted to.

Once, when our kids were small, we motored out of Narragansett at night . We headed South and then West and around midnight we laid down on the deck looking at the Milky Way, just drifting with no motor and lights on. Never saw such stars . They are grown up now and they still talk about that night.


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## mark2gmtrans

Sal Paradise said:


> Mark,
> 
> 99% of that is defense mechanism and rationalizing. Most people just feel safer staying home and mowing the lawn, or going to the mall and buying new jeans. In evolutionalry terms, were are descended from those who stayed safe. In social terms , the herd stays together.
> 
> I would reply that I would love to mow my lawn more and I would love to shop at the mall more, but I just can't. I just can't seem to manage it. Then again, I know from my great aunt that my ancestors were sailors and stubborn loners. :laugher


Hehe, yep, lawn mowing is great, I do it here, will have to do it today, but I am not hooked on lawn care. I am thoroughly hooked on sailing, travelling, and exploring. Some of my family had a bit of the bug in the past, back in the 1500's a few of them got together and went sailing, they left Spain and landed in Mexico. They then left Mexico and went to Florida, and while they claimed it was to seek trade, or bring the message of the church, my guess it was a nookie hunt in foreign lands that sold them on it.... time changes a lot of things, but.....


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## wolfenzee

If people stay with in tight sociological parameters and don't look outside these parameters they will remain in their safe little world......all will be well....problem is life is not as stable as is one was....but the masses still believe they are safe and don't know of any other possibility. Anyone who thinks of giving up their "safe little world" and sailing off into the tropical unset goes against the grain of "the accepted norm".


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## djaustralia

I can sum up an answer quite easily, the rich get richer while the poor get stiffed. I live in Tasmania & i've tried six ways from sunday to get regular work. Then maybe I could save enough money to do the things I really want to do...like buy a boat. 
My circumstances always seem to dictate that the more money I have the more I have to pay out just to break even. Just the cost of living is enough to keep us moderate income earners broke. Everything keeps getting more expensive, food, electricity, vehicle registration, insurances & the list goes on. I can barely afford to put food in the cupboard and fuel in the car at the same time.
It seems clear to me that governments are manipulators & happy to make money off us for nothing. In Australia you now need a "white card" just to walk onto a building site. You need a skippers ticket before you step onto a boat. 

As a parent of an 11yr old in primary school I can't even go with him & his class into the change rooms when they all do swim class. I NEED A "WORKING WITH CHILDREN CHECK" & of course the government charge money for that. I spoke with a teacher a few years ago, she'd been doing it for 35 years and cause the governmemt introduced a new law she had to spend $50 of her own money to pay for a "working with children check"!
The cost of a decent yacht, caravan, camper, house or vehicle is far to exspensive nowadays. Not to mention the rego' & insurance that go with it.

Money is controlled by banks & governments & they share with us when it suits them. Heck they can even take money off us if we havn't any "proof" where it came from. No wonder young people don't own boats


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## mark2gmtrans

djaustralia said:


> I can sum up an answer quite easily, the rich get richer while the poor get stiffed. I live in Tasmania & i've tried six ways from sunday to get regular work. Then maybe I could save enough money to do the things I really want to do...like buy a boat.
> My circumstances always seem to dictate that the more money I have the more I have to pay out just to break even. Just the cost of living is enough to keep us moderate income earners broke. Everything keeps getting more expensive, food, electricity, vehicle registration, insurances & the list goes on. I can barely afford to put food in the cupboard and fuel in the car at the same time.
> It seems clear to me that governments are manipulators & happy to make money off us for nothing. In Australia you now need a "white card" just to walk onto a building site. You need a skippers ticket before you step onto a boat.
> 
> As a parent of an 11yr old in primary school I can't even go with him & his class into the change rooms when they all do swim class. I NEED A "WORKING WITH CHILDREN CHECK" & of course the government charge money for that. I spoke with a teacher a few years ago, she'd been doing it for 35 years and cause the governmemt introduced a new law she had to spend $50 of her own money to pay for a "working with children check"!
> The cost of a decent yacht, caravan, camper, house or vehicle is far to exspensive nowadays. Not to mention the rego' & insurance that go with it.
> 
> Money is controlled by banks & governments & they share with us when it suits them. Heck they can even take money off us if we havn't any "proof" where it came from. No wonder young people don't own boats


My friend, I mean you no disrespect, but blaming others for your lack or needs is simply foolish. I once lived in an area where the economy sucked, the jobs outlook was non-existent, and the wages for what few jobs there were would not meet the needs of a family. I did not blame anyone, I packed up my family, and my crap, and I moved. I moved to another state, I actively and aggressively pursued opportunity when I found it, no matter where it presented itself. I made my own opportunities when others did not present themselves. I lived within the laws of the land, and I worked my arse off. I faced and overcame a ton of obstacles, but I did it with help from my friends and family and my faith, I made it through the rough patches.

You can too. Think outside the box, move if you cannot find work to a place where it is more abundant. I wish you the best.


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## northoceanbeach

My feelings fall somewhere in the middle of the above statement but I give the poster credit. I'm baffled by places like Detroit where the economy totally collapsed, yet there are people that still sit there. People used to migrate more for work, so if you live in a place like the rust belt and there are no jobs then move somewhere else. Don't sit there and expect the government to subsidise a dying or dead industry.


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## wolfenzee

Thing is the rich boaters have been led to believe (like the rest of our culture) that they can't do anything for themselves and the marine industry has created a mystique of sorts cashing in on that....well us poor boaters can't afford to pay marine techs for every little thing....we learn to do for ourselves....and using this knowledge we can also do stuff for the rich boaters ie the rich boaters make it possible for us poor boaters...a continuation of this is rich boater NEEDING to get the latest greatest techno gadgets and there "obsolete" (but perfectly good) stuff goes for little or nothing.


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## djaustralia

My situation depicts that i moved here (Tasmania) to help a relative who has since "turned" on me. Other local relatives have since followed suit, for reasons no worse than me not going to christmas lunches. Despite all this I have decided to stay in this area so my son (11 yrs old) can finish primary school. It's just one thing after another regarding the hurdles I must jump, hirdles I might add that are usually thrown up by others and not discovered through my lack of abilities. Maybe by the time i'm 45 I will be able to have the financial freedom I seek. By then though I won't be young enough to reply to a thread like this one, Kind of ironic ha'!


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## mark2gmtrans

djaustralia said:


> My situation depicts that i moved here (Tasmania) to help a relative who has since "turned" on me. Other local relatives have since followed suit, for reasons no worse than me not going to christmas lunches. Despite all this I have decided to stay in this area so my son (11 yrs old) can finish primary school. It's just one thing after another regarding the hurdles I must jump, hirdles I might add that are usually thrown up by others and not discovered through my lack of abilities. Maybe by the time i'm 45 I will be able to have the financial freedom I seek. By then though I won't be young enough to reply to a thread like this one, Kind of ironic ha'!


Well, most of us who are replying to the thread are not young, we all want younger people to join in with the sailing community and enjoy the wonderful experience of sailing. I think most young people could greatly benefit from a year or two of sailing, a cruise or circumnavigation would give them the insight on their own situation that would be helpful in overcoming obstacles in other aspects of life.

I hope that you will not wait too long to get started sailing, and I hope that you will involve your children and family. My first sailboat was dead cheap. It took a ton of work, which at the time I was too broke to pay anyone else to do, and I enjoyed doing it. I learned a lot, still have a lot to learn, and enjoy every minute of it, or at least I have learned to appreciate even the hard stuff. I can afford a bit more these days, but I do not spend willy nilly, I save my money and do as much as I can myself. I know that I have to really budget my money if I am going to be able to cruise and see the places I want to see. I hope you get past all of the silliness with the regulations and laws and restrictions on your life there and get to sail sooner rather than later, but if not then later is better than never.


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## AKscooter

Is this the part where people who "have" it tell those who don't to pull up the bootstraps and ride?? 'cause I see lots of people busting their arse trying to make it day to day, and barely staying ...ahem..."afloat".

It takes a bunch of 12 hour days for a lot of people to just crack their monthly nut. To be 
"creative, think outside the box, shift gears and all" takes time and enough money to be able to do just that. It ain't gonna happen the way the majority of people have to work today. 

Definitely is not the l960's.......

Wait until these "grandparents" out there have to listen to their grandkids being enslaved because in order to go to school you have to mortgage 30 years of your life to pay off that loan. The same schooling that they may have had and paid for by working a part time summer job. Those days and opportunities are gone...long gone.


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## Sal Paradise

As always, we can point to a specific individual and say that he is doing okay. But to understand the issue you need to look at the broad numbers.

I do think this article from today's NY Times relates somewhat to what is being discussed here.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/22/young-and-isolated/?_r=0&gwh=CA2AF8128244BB3BFDD5150C9EC722A6

_ 
Lowell and Richmond embody many of the structural forces, like deindustrialization and declining blue-collar jobs, that frame working-class young people's attempts to come of age in America today. The economic hardships of these men and women, both white and black, have been well documented. But often overlooked are what the sociologists Richard Sennett and Jonathan Cobb in 1972 called their "hidden injuries" - the difficult-to-measure social costs borne by working-class youths as they struggle to forge stable and meaningful adult lives.

Powerless to achieve external markers of adulthood like marriage or a steady job, they instead measure their progress by cutting ties, turning inward and numbing themselves emotionally.

We don't want to go back to the 1950s, when economic stability and social solidarity came at the cost of exclusion for many Americans. But nor can we afford the social costs of going forward on our present path of isolation. The social and economic decline of the American working class will only be exacerbated as its youngest members make a virtue out of self-blame, distrust and disconnection. In order to tell a different kind of coming-of-age story, we need to provide these young men and women with the skills and support to navigate the road to adulthood. Our future depends on it._


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## wolfenzee

AKscooter said:


> Is this the part where people who "have" it tell those who don't to pull up the bootstraps and ride?? 'cause I see lots of people busting their arse trying to make it day to day, and barely staying ...ahem..."afloat".
> 
> It takes a bunch of 12 hour days for a lot of people to just crack their monthly nut. To be
> "creative, think outside the box, shift gears and all" takes time and enough money to be able to do just that. It ain't gonna happen the way the majority of people have to work today.
> 
> Definitely is not the l960's.......
> 
> Wait until these "grandparents" out there have to listen to their grandkids being enslaved because in order to go to school you have to mortgage 30 years of your life to pay off that loan. The same schooling that they may have had and paid for by working a part time summer job. Those days and opportunities are gone...long gone.


More like the people that "have it", can't see how us poor sailors can "make do" they can't imagine anyone being able to function with out techno gadgets and gizmos that cost more than I paid for my boat. 
When you figure in all the costs of the trappings of modern society (not including the cost of owning and paying for the upkeep of a high ticket boat) people could live alot more inexpensively. Our economy is supported by the manufacture, distribution, sail, storage and resale of totally useless stuff...but if someone can afford to (or appear to) be able to spend money on useless stuff it indicates that they are financially better off. The same idea is behind hiring someone to do menial/simple work for use....marketing has driven this into us to the point where people think they NEED totally useless stuff and are incapable of doing what are actually very simple things.

Our educational system is based on something from over 100years ago where children (the offspring of factory workers) were trained to fit into the society their parents were in. We were taught that you save all your money by working all your life and then reap the benifits when you were too old and worn out to really enjoy it....this evolved into "we (the banks) will lend you money to achieve that and/or the appearance of a higher station in life" because it was understood the almighty US economy was guaranteed to improve and you were expected to advance at your job.....well it doesn't work that way anymore and we have created a debtor economy (around 2010 was the first year since the depression where the average American owed more than their annual income), going deeper and deeper in debt. Our lives are devoted completely to our job....if you ask the question "What do you do" that actually means "What is you job"because people devote more of thier time/emphasis to their job than any thing else.


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## hannah2

I've posted on this subject way back and I see there are new dreamers without a chance to make it work because they have every excuse in the world.
My wife and I leave tomorrow for the start of our third journey around the world or close to it. We are 60, my first time was at 20 back in 1972, I was shat poor but made it work, why? Because I wanted to and nothing was going to stop me. The excuses here are the same as back in 1972, exactly the same. Most of you won't ever get it done, you will just talk about it till you get tired of hearing your own excuses and move on to some other thing to have excuses for. I'm not rubbing it in I mean no bad feelings but that is the way it has been and will always be. Some live the dream and some just dream and most others don't even dream. Nothing has changed, blame the world for your sorry ass reasons why you can't get it done.

Good luck to those who make it.

Cheers

Steve and Tracy
SV RC Louise.
Bienvenue chez Boreal


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## wolfenzee

hannah2 said:


> I've posted on this subject way back and I see there are new dreamers without a chance to make it work because they have every excuse in the world.
> My wife and I leave tomorrow for the start of our third journey around the world or close to it. We are 60, my first time was at 20 back in 1972, I was shat poor but made it work, why? Because I wanted to and nothing was going to stop me. The excuses here are the same as back in 1972, exactly the same. Most of you won't ever get it done, you will just talk about it till you get tired of hearing your own excuses and move on to some other thing to have excuses for. I'm not rubbing it in I mean no bad feelings but that is the way it has been and will always be. Some live the dream and some just dream and most others don't even dream. Nothing has changed, blame the world for your sorry ass reasons why you can't get it done.
> And as far as the excuse of being too poor....I am too poor to stay, but will live quite comfortably somewhere else (actually even California would cost me less than here
> 
> Good luck to those who make it.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve and Tracy
> SV RC Louise.
> Bienvenue chez Boreal


There are people here who say they want to leave....they have investined in a really nice bluewater boat.....thier excuse for not leaving is they want to make sure the boat is "perfect" first.....if you were actually pose the possibility of leaving Puget sound to them they would turn white as a sheet....they are all talk. What is actually necessary beyond a sound boat other that just what is needed for survival is determined by the degree of comfort you would like.....breaking ones land ties (both real and imagined) is all that keeps anyone. I have gotten to the point.....I will be leaving, not matter what.
And as far as the excuse of being too poor....I am too poor to stay, but will live quite comfortably somewhere else. Living at a marina while trying to et things ready (something that is also necessary most of the year because of the weather) has been eating up a large chunk of the money that would have allowed me to leave years ago


----------



## desert rat

I am the old man who wants to escape. I sincerely hope that I am not just a dreamer. I reed, and study, and occasionally fear comes rolling in on me at the thought of drowning in the southern ocean, but I have faced fear before.
I haven't even been able to settle on a single boat that would suit me. A Ballad is close.


----------



## wolfenzee

desert rat said:


> I am the old man who wants to escape. I sincerely hope that I am not just a dreamer. I reed, and study, and occasionally fear comes rolling in on me at the thought of drowning in the southern ocean, but I have faced fear before.
> I haven't even been able to settle on a single boat that would suit me. A Ballad is close.


A much more realistic fear ( and worse fate) would dieing in a mangled lump of twisted steel on the freeway....or worse stagnating and getting absorbed into this mindless culture.

As far as the boat keep this in mind: grab for what you can reach....otherwise you will be standing on the dock lusting after a goal you will never realize

I hope you are able to overcome your fears and/or any other obstacles and "sail off into the tropical sunset"....if you can't get a boat, you might be able to help someone who had a boat to find thier dream as well.


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## hannah2

wolfe,

We would love to see you in the S. Pacific in April 2014. But you have never left port on your own and you have a lot of truth to learn about yourself and those that will be around you. If you continue on about the more well off with a negative slant you will find yourself isolated. The world cruising community has no material status, we all, rich or poor help each other and care about each other. There is no value to money only how a sailor and his crew carry themselves and how well he or she keeps their boat. We will risk our lives to save another fellow cruiser especially when he has done everything to keep a good vessel. 

I have met many wanna be's like you, they rarely don't get far. Usually they make it to San Fran or if lucky to Mexico and then no farther. They are bitter and depressed, they are stuck in some stink hole at anchor till they and the boat rots out. Get a better outlook to all of those around and enjoy your life and those around you and you will find that the cruising world is a pretty nice world to be in. 

We hope you make it and we can buy you a beer. Best of luck to you and your beautiful boat.

Desert Rat,

Make the ballad a seaworthy event. Don't stop till the ballad is complete, Bob Dylan has never stopped and he is like you and I old and and at least as grey as I am. And I hear that Bob is fearful every time he writes.
Good Luck...


----------



## tashahacker

hannah2 said:


> I've posted on this subject way back and I see there are new dreamers without a chance to make it work because they have every excuse in the world.
> My wife and I leave tomorrow for the start of our third journey around the world or close to it. We are 60, my first time was at 20 back in 1972, I was shat poor but made it work, why? Because I wanted to and nothing was going to stop me. The excuses here are the same as back in 1972, exactly the same. Most of you won't ever get it done, you will just talk about it till you get tired of hearing your own excuses and move on to some other thing to have excuses for. I'm not rubbing it in I mean no bad feelings but that is the way it has been and will always be. Some live the dream and some just dream and most others don't even dream. Nothing has changed, blame the world for your sorry ass reasons why you can't get it done.
> 
> Good luck to those who make it.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve and Tracy
> SV RC Louise.
> [Bienvenue chez Boreal[/url]


I'm not sure if you noticed the cruisers who responded at the start of this thread (a very long time ago) with the blogs of young cruisers they've met out there sailing (including me and my husband), but it's clear there ARE a large number of young people out cruising. And not just cruising -- I follow a lot of Travel Blogs, and there are even more travelers and adventurers out there living their dreams, though not on boats. I love reading about people taking steps towards fulfilling their dreams on and off boats, however long it takes them to get there.

But even if the numbers of young cruisers WERE dwindling, I'm baffled by posts by people like you who seem to just want to knock people down for not being as good as you, for not living the way you are living. If you want to be a helpful voice on this forum, why not offer encouraging words to boost people's confidence that they CAN live their dream, whatever that may be, and give them stories of overcoming hardship successfully rather than filling threads with negative comments like, "Nothing has changed, blame the world for your sorry ass reasons why you can't get it done" and dismissing anyone who hasn't gotten over their fears or obstacles to be more like you.

If you really are living your dream, I would think you would be a bit happier, more patient and a bit more encouraging to people trying to get to where you are.


----------



## wolfenzee

hannah2 said:


> wolfe,
> 
> We would love to see you in the S. Pacific in April 2014. But you have never left port on your own and you have a lot of truth to learn about yourself and those that will be around you. If you continue on about the more well off with a negative slant you will find yourself isolated. The world cruising community has no material status, we all, rich or poor help each other and care about each other. There is no value to money only how a sailor and his crew carry themselves and how well he or she keeps their boat. We will risk our lives to save another fellow cruiser especially when he has done everything to keep a good vessel.
> 
> I have met many wanna be's like you, they rarely don't get far. Usually they make it to San Fran or if lucky to Mexico and then no farther. They are bitter and depressed, they are stuck in some stink hole at anchor till they and the boat rots out. Get a better outlook to all of those around and enjoy your life and those around you and you will find that the cruising world is a pretty nice world to be in.
> 
> We hope you make it and we can buy you a beer. Best of luck to you and your beautiful boat.
> 
> Desert Rat,
> 
> Make the ballad a seaworthy event. Don't stop till the ballad is complete, Bob Dylan has never stopped and he is like you and I old and and at least as grey as I am. And I hear that Bob is fearful every time he writes.
> Good Luck...


Everything you say about world cruising community is what I have known for years and what has pushed me forward. As my brother is based in Panama and has loads of connections there I plan on making that at least my base of sorts. When people tell mt "Good luck on your trip" I tell them "A trip is something you come back from, I'm not coming back".


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## rockDAWG

youmeandthed said:


> The future of the sailing world. Why are there so few young people cruising??


I don't know about other young people. But i do know my son since I raised him like others raise their Thoroughbred. I shaped my children since young age both academically and extra-curriculumly .

My son enjoys sailing but not cruising. Sailing around the world is just too boring for him. Last year after he graduated, I asked him if you wanted take 2 years off sailing around the world with his daddy. He would rather take a job and get only 2 week vacation. He prefers sailing the 14 ft dinghy that we have. He loves snow boarding, skiing, cycling, rock climbing, driving. Cruising on a sailboat will bored to him to death.

Besides, he told me that only old and overweight people sail 

That was him a few years ago,





Look at it this way, when I was in college, I didn't sail either despite most all my classmate's parent have sailboats, and had invited my to go. I refused.


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## hannah2

tashahacker said:


> I'm not sure if you noticed the cruisers who responded at the start of this thread (a very long time ago) with the blogs of young cruisers they've met out there sailing (including me and my husband), but it's clear there ARE a large number of young people out cruising. And not just cruising -- I follow a lot of Travel Blogs, and there are even more travelers and adventurers out there living their dreams, though not on boats. I love reading about people taking steps towards fulfilling their dreams on and off boats, however long it takes them to get there.
> 
> But even if the numbers of young cruisers WERE dwindling, I'm baffled by posts by people like you who seem to just want to knock people down for not being as good as you, for not living the way you are living. If you want to be a helpful voice on this forum, why not offer encouraging words to boost people's confidence that they CAN live their dream, whatever that may be, and give them stories of overcoming hardship successfully rather than filling threads with negative comments like, "Nothing has changed, blame the world for your sorry ass reasons why you can't get it done" and dismissing anyone who hasn't gotten over their fears or obstacles to be more like you.
> 
> If you really are living your dream, I would think you would be a bit happier, more patient and a bit more encouraging to people trying to get to where you are.


I guess you didn't read my posts throughout this entire thread did you. I'm the one who continually defended the young cruisers out there and have said all along that there are as many young cruisers as there were back in 1970 some 43 years ago when most of this started. I only encourage those worth encouraging and those are the ones that get off their arse and go one dimensional to get it done be they young family or single. That is the only way in this day in age a young man or woman can do it. But that is how it was 43 years ago too, we had our problems with an unjust war, the draft and the goverment of Richy Nixon.

Encouraging? There aint no one more encouraging than me because I'm giving you real time advise. I want to see every young person who wants to go sailing around the world to do so. But I'm telling you if your making excuses like so many here are you won't make it because it is a tough world out there and has always been that way.

And Happy ! There is no one more happy at this moment than we are. A new beautiful ocean going boat that we worked hard for, off to do long passages. Out to meet new friends both cruisers and locals around the world. Surfing, fishing, eating local, learning about cultures everywhere. We are very happy maybe it is you who are not so happy but I don't know about that. But one thing we do know is that if you don't give it everything you got and that means leaving a lot behind that is part of your life you have very little chance of being the one % of the one % that actually go sailing the world. We wish you the very best in living the dream it is not easy. Believe me on that we have done it twice and hopefully tomorrow we start the third the big guy willing.

Get it done!

Cheers


----------



## JonEisberg

tashahacker said:


> Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
> I've posted on this subject way back and I see there are new dreamers without a chance to make it work because they have every excuse in the world.
> My wife and I leave tomorrow for the start of our third journey around the world or close to it. We are 60, my first time was at 20 back in 1972, I was shat poor but made it work, why? Because I wanted to and nothing was going to stop me. The excuses here are the same as back in 1972, exactly the same. Most of you won't ever get it done, you will just talk about it till you get tired of hearing your own excuses and move on to some other thing to have excuses for. I'm not rubbing it in I mean no bad feelings but that is the way it has been and will always be. Some live the dream and some just dream and most others don't even dream. Nothing has changed, blame the world for your sorry ass reasons why you can't get it done.
> 
> Good luck to those who make it.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve and Tracy
> SV RC Louise.
> [Bienvenue chez Boreal[/url]
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if you noticed the cruisers who responded at the start of this thread (a very long time ago) with the blogs of young cruisers they've met out there sailing (including me and my husband), but it's clear there ARE a large number of young people out cruising. And not just cruising -- I follow a lot of Travel Blogs, and there are even more travelers and adventurers out there living their dreams, though not on boats. I love reading about people taking steps towards fulfilling their dreams on and off boats, however long it takes them to get there.
> 
> But even if the numbers of young cruisers WERE dwindling, I'm baffled by posts by people like you who seem to just want to knock people down for not being as good as you, for not living the way you are living. If you want to be a helpful voice on this forum, why not offer encouraging words to boost people's confidence that they CAN live their dream, whatever that may be, and give them stories of overcoming hardship successfully rather than filling threads with negative comments like, "Nothing has changed, blame the world for your sorry ass reasons why you can't get it done" and dismissing anyone who hasn't gotten over their fears or obstacles to be more like you.
> 
> If you really are living your dream, I would think you would be a bit happier, more patient and a bit more encouraging to people trying to get to where you are.
Click to expand...

Actually, if you go back and re-read hannah2's earlier posts to this thread, I think you'd realize how wrong your characterization of their point of view is...

Few people contributing to this thread have more solid credentials from which to evaluate how worldwide cruising has evolved over the last few decades, and it appears you've largely missed the point he's attempting to make...


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## mrmic92

As a school teacher....I can tell you I have seen a decline in students with the patience to learn knew things..or the intrinsic value....could be sailing just isn't easy for them....with video games...24/7 internet....quick meaningless messaging and social media...ordering food by a number.....I think you get my point.....easier to jump on a jet ski


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## wolfenzee

The is is a "sociologically constricted, emotionally constipated cultural bubble" boats are mostly an expression of material wealth and cruising is at best away to escape from the modern world for a brief period of time. The cruising we are talking about is a different mindset or lifestyle....it is a way of life. All of the stresses of modern day life and the trappings we are lead to believe are required no long apply, expression of and/or emulation of materiel wealth and status are gone with it. Did you ever wonder why alot of "celebrities" like to sail...because they are seen as sailors not what the rest of the world sees them as.


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## Harborless

Want to know why im the only 25way year old i know who owns his own sailboat and actively sails it solo?
because its hard work and damn expensive and sometimes scary as hell.

Its much easier to play w.e. video game is popular right now, smoke a fatty and get some moochy from your girl in a nice air conditioned and safe apartment.

Sailing is dirty, sweaty, slow, scary (for solo) and expensive. Must people my age dont even read more than 160 characters at a time, the limit of most text messages.

Sure everytime i say to some chich or dude i live on my own boat theyre always like thats so awesome and cool i wish i could do that, but really they dont. They just see a nice white pretty sailboat and have no idea what it takes to even get it safely away from the dock.
hell sometimes i envy the power boaters myself...

I used to dream of circumnavigation but now i realize id be bored out of my mind most the time. Instead i will just island hop and visit all the cool places around the carribean then sell the boat and begin my land adventures over seas starting in india.

I love my boat, as fickle a bi**h as she is sometimes. Simply put most folks my age are lazy as hell and broke from buying designer shades, good pot, and name brand liquor. Girls want make up and extensions not sweat and raw knuckles from banging around on diesels.

Guys just want to visit islands not spend the time plotting courses, learning navigation, or maintaining a sailing vessel.

Ive been at this two years and the only other guy i know under thirty is a guy i took out sailing who fell in love and worked two jobs until he too bought his first boat. We are good friends.

Not a lot of young people sail because it takes a special breed and a hard work ethic that sadly has been lost or forgotten among many of my peers.

Nothing better than a solo sail in 15 to 20 with a nice angle of heel and a sunny sky.
nothing worse than a run away diesel and rocks bring you and your creation closer to doom every second.

Most people my my age dont want the responsability. Its a lot of work owning and maintaing a sailboat.most people my age would simply rather say cool i wish i could do that then actually do it.


All the power to you circumnavigators. Takes balls of brass to cross open oceans. of course those balls get smaller with every extra set of hands. Me being a solo sailor, no thanks. Two or three day crossings are just fine for me. I still own my own boat and i still know my bowditch and chapmans. Its not that i couldnt do it, i just know i dont want to. Ive nothing to prove to anyone except myself. Its my life and my boat.

Still looking for that twenty something hottie to come anchor next to me. That would be something. Alas, they are too busy sunning themselves on the beach and talking to jenna about how robs such a douche bag for buying two carats instead of three.


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## melody1204

While the economy certainly took its toll on everyone young and old, and probably a large part of the reason fewer people may be cruising, I think we'll see some changes in the next few years, and perhaps more young people cruising.

For one, I think more and more people are realizing the American Dream isn't what we once thought it was. It's not necessarily owning a house or driving a nice car or even having the perfect job. I think people are realizing that personal fulfillment and happiness is worth more than "owning" (or rather _owing money on_) a house. Not putting down anyone whose dream it is to own a nice house. Just saying that now it's a more personal choice and not necessarily the concept of the "American Dream" anymore.

Secondly, I think the biggest reason (to date) that more young people aren't out there cruising is because of a lack of disposable income. The older cruisers we've met are living off their savings and retirement. What young person has that kind of cash? However, with the advances of technology, that's changing.

I'm 37 (which by "cruising" standards is pretty young) and I work full-time from the boat, working for the same company I've been with for 6 years. Having the ability to remain connected to wifi via our Verizon hotspot has singlehandedly saved my job and one of the primary reasons we're able to continue doing this, since we don't have a big nest egg or retirement fund.

More and more companies allow telecommuting and I think because of that, more people will realize the potential that this kind of flexibility can bring. No longer are the days of sitting in an office with no windows. Now my office can be the boat, it can be the beach, it can be a small cafe.

I think in a few years the capability of remote access will have a bigger effect on people getting out there and fulfilling their dreams than the economy had on stifling those dreams.


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## Capt Len

If you've had your face in computer game you may not have noticed the black gold rush going on. For Canada it's all about Fort Macmurray In the states it's fracking in the Dakotas. Huge money for hard work. No reason why you cant peel back a couple of hundred thou clear in less than two years. Apparently many following this thread find them though. I'm a bit slow out the gate on this rush but had my licks on the Arctic oil boom back in the 80's .I'd already built my boat and picked scrap metal and bottles to pay the 12 grand it cost me. It was a great chick magnet so I was motivated. My later motivation was more fiscal than physical but reasonably successful also. I know it can be done , boys and girls, What's your dream?


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## elspru

spent three days reading this thread..

Rather than why are there so few, how about why are there so many, and going to be more as time goes on?

Sailing is a sustainable means of transportation, it doesn't require non-renewable gasoline, if an engine is really desired can be bio-diesel. 
peak oil, carbon, methane, toxic fumes yadda yadda blah blah blah... 
Why not get a drivers license? (though I have one) Because it's just more burden on the environment. If you have the time, you can go anywhere by bike, sailboat or hike, all eco-friendly means of transportation. 
people have crossed america in as little as a week using pedal power alone with streamlined recumbent bicycles (commercially available).

Anyways I have a rather different perspective from my peers (I'm 25), as spirituality has always been important to me. When I went through my "enlightenment/awakening/illumination" I came to realize that harming others, including plants, animals, things and the planet was harming me -- so obviously I stopped that, and started doing as much good as I could for all those. BTW it really hurts me that someone actually said they liked mowing, that's like saying they like to cut tall poppies, clear cutting forests, and destroying nature for the sake of conformational pleasure. 

In current society we have united-nations supporting sustainable development (planet), peta supporting animals, organic farming supporting plants, and diyers supporting things, with ancient animism encapsulating all. So I live sustainably, am mostly vegan, eat organic food, and Do It Myself as much as possible.

School was a boring daytime prison, fortunately for me I managed to sleep through most of it, as I would stay up late at night instead researching things that interested me. 
For other people however, school is something likeable, the indoctrination is that they need to become slaves to the dollar (jesus), the banks (holy spirit) and the government(god). They unfortunately believe that school is all the learning they needed to do, so didn't do the research when for instance buying up 200k condos, in an 80% over-inflated real-estate market (Canada), in the midst of the beginning of the bubbles deflation. 

All that stuff, with the whole people not making enough money, or economy not being good, is just people that have made bad life decisions from not knowing how to learn for themselves, mostly anyways. It's part of natural selection, they may like choices that makes it So expensive for them to live they can't have children, well then they get Darwin awards, for taking their own .... er lets put it lightly unadaptability ... out of the gene pool. 

Anyways long story short, I remembered my past lives, many had sailing, such as viking, merchant and pirate. Back then there was no "cruising" per say, it was mostly task-oriented sailing, such as for transportation. 
Though admittedly as the centuries have been rolling by, more and more time can be spent on a boat. 

Only a couple centuries ago Yachts were invented, the earliest clubs being in the 1700's. Living aboard a cruising yacht didn't happen till early 1900's Harry Pidgeon the first cruising liveaboard on record to my knowledge. 
Since then cruising and living aboard has experienced exponential growth. 

With the Canadian housing bubble on the verge of collapse, the world's strongest economy is about to falter. If things get bad enough -- which the rich, banks and governments are really trying to accomplish. Then people will be Forced to live sustainable eco-friendly lives. As they simply wont be able to afford buying useless crap (cars, processed-food, condos, big houses, suburbs). 
More will likely have to turn to living on boats, trailers, farms.

In all my lifetimes, there has never been such a ridiculous overabundance of wealth just pouring in every door, nook and cranny -- just yesterday I found a toonie($2) on the ground. Neither my wife or me, work for others/money, we have an apartment in an upscale neighbourhood, eat delicious organic food, have a baby, and still manage to save $250-$500 a month towards a sailboat and property. We already have more than enough to buy a boat, though plan is to learn the ropes and engine some more on these new yachts (quite different from the schooners of yesteryear) before moving aboard, and let the little one at least get to solid foods and walking, so mommy has more time and energy for the move. We live way better than royalty did a mere millenia ago. I could get a job if I wanted to, I get job offers frequently, though really I don't need the money... and rather spend the time with family. If I ever want anything, typically I just cast a magic spell, and in a little while it arrives.


We have an annual family income of less than 30k courtesy of God (the government) -- didn't know they gave out free money before casting for stable income for doing nothing. Admittedly it's a smart thing they did, social-security or SIN as it's called in Canada (social insurance). if they weren't robbing the rich for the benefit of the poor in an automated fashion, I'd have to go back to piracy, as been doing for millenia. Those skills aren't required in this lifetime at the moment, working on new skills, like long-life having a family and garden. Though if TSHTF hard enough maybe will have some fun  Yarr. Most likely it wont though, and technology going to keep going forward towards the technological singularity, then can have fun with reproducing robots  om. Hey that'll also be more young "people" even if robots, since this world is water, best way to get around to remote areas outside government-control is via the water -- would probably have to dodge all those luddites that don't like self-replicating robots. 

Anyways, ya, so young people go sailing, that's for sure, when I took a dinghy sailing course most of them were young. Not as many at keelboat clubs, though a few ya. 

I wouldn't worry about the young-adults, or older adults, some will work themselves to death and an early grave doing what they were told was right. Others will do what they like, and live a long happy life doing it. 

I find video-games atrociously boring, for boys anyways it's usually them "kill sport games", which don't in any way match up to the real thing, or how it was when we played those games IRL centuries ago. 
I like IRL games(life lessons), and IRL people that's true love, 
the virtual stuff is just negotiations (a crush perhaps),
at some point gotta decide,
and do it IRL.


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## abrahamx

uuuuuh, most young folk dont have that kind of time or money. I'm in my fourtys and with halfway decent job making around 70k I barely have enough cash to get a 40 year old boat. And forget about crusing. I might be able to afford a week or two off. How does one even acess their money while crusing. Or pay their bills for that matter? I'd have to somehow make a grand a week and get it back into my direct deposits so the bills get paid. Not an easy thing to do for most of us. If you are well off enough to do the cruising thing you are luckier than you think. Throw a million bucks in my bank and I'm there.


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## Capt.aaron

Harborless said:


> Want to know why im the only 25way year old i know who owns his own sailboat and actively sails it solo?
> because its hard work and @#!*% expensive and sometimes scary as @#!*% .
> 
> Its much easier to play w.e. video game is popular right now, smoke a fatty and get some moochy from your girl in a nice air conditioned and safe apartment.
> 
> Sailing is dirty, sweaty, slow, scary (for solo) and expensive. Must people my age dont even read more than 160 characters at a time, the limit of most text messages.
> 
> Sure everytime i say to some chich or dude i live on my own boat theyre always like thats so awesome and cool i wish i could do that, but really they dont. They just see a nice white pretty sailboat and have no idea what it takes to even get it safely away from the dock.
> @#!*% sometimes i envy the power boaters myself...
> 
> I used to dream of circumnavigation but now i realize id be bored out of my mind most the time. Instead i will just island hop and visit all the cool places around the carribean then sell the boat and begin my land adventures over seas starting in india.
> 
> I love my boat, as fickle a bi**h as she is sometimes. Simply put most folks my age are lazy as @#!*% and broke from buying designer shades, good pot, and name brand liquor. Girls want make up and extensions not sweat and raw knuckles from banging around on diesels.
> 
> Guys just want to visit islands not spend the time plotting courses, learning navigation, or maintaining a sailing vessel.
> 
> Ive been at this two years and the only other guy i know under thirty is a guy i took out sailing who fell in love and worked two jobs until he too bought his first boat. We are good friends.
> 
> Not a lot of young people sail because it takes a special breed and a hard work ethic that sadly has been lost or forgotten among many of my peers.
> 
> Nothing better than a solo sail in 15 to 20 with a nice angle of heel and a sunny sky.
> nothing worse than a run away diesel and rocks bring you and your creation closer to doom every second.
> 
> Most people my my age dont want the responsability. Its a lot of work owning and maintaing a sailboat.most people my age would simply rather say cool i wish i could do that then actually do it.
> 
> All the power to you circumnavigators. Takes balls of brass to cross open oceans. of course those balls get smaller with every extra set of hands. Me being a solo sailor, no thanks. Two or three day crossings are just fine for me. I still own my own boat and i still know my bowditch and chapmans. Its not that i couldnt do it, i just know i dont want to. Ive nothing to prove to anyone except myself. Its my life and my boat.
> 
> Still looking for that twenty something hottie to come anchor next to me. That would be something. Alas, they are too busy sunning themselves on the beach and talking to jenna about how robs such a @#!*% bag for buying two carats instead of three.


I was you once. 20 years ago I was the only kid I knew who, owned, lived and sailed on his boat. And my peers where intrested in the same activity's you mentioned. Is see a lot of kids trying to do it down in the key's. They're just squat'n on derilict sail boats really. Being in my early 20's and sailing the Caribbean set me apart from other dudes. I can't actually say I was the only one, but one of a very few. I also sold my boat and traveled through Central America for a few years, then made my way back to key West and bought her back. Any way's, I'd like to see more young ones buy up all these old good boats and be adventerous. Us bare bones dudes just need to get the word out that it can be done for a fraction of the cost with a fraction of the gadgets. We need to let these kids know that you should not need a computer to navigate for you, or an electirc motor to raise your anchor. I remember cruising the Bahamas in the 70's as a kid with my bare bones Grandpa, and the anchorages where full of young people on small sail boats, showering with a plastic Pepsi bottle that had been set out in the sun to get warm. As a kid, I could'nt wait to get big enough to get out there. Then in the late 80's when I did, I was the only one out there. Like I was a day late to the party or something.


----------



## Harborless

Elspru what an awesome mentality. We have much in common. I will pm you later to find more about you.

Aberahamx, you make plenty of money sir. I think you just choose to have too many expenses. House, cars, tvs, eating out perhaps? Ive never made more then 25ki in my life until this year and let me tell you if i spent two years making 70 i would have no debt, a nice boat, a new vespa scooter, and be taking vacations to india, burma, costa rica, thailand ect where my dollars stretched like warm plastic.

Perhaps instead of focusing on your investments you should focus on expenses?

For all i know yo putting three kids through college and supporting a wife in chemo which would make you a saint. I know nothing of your personal situation. I just know the more stuff we buy the less freedom we have. Good luck to you sir.

Capt. Aaron well done truly. My boat is basic but it does have gps and an inboard diesel and a solar panal and three batteries and an inverted.

This is why i moved to new smyrna beach where my world class sailing uncle and semi world grandfatjer live. Yesterday i got my first real grip on dead reckoning. After my college astronomy class i will learn from them my sextant and celestial nav although i wonder if really irs worth it since light pollution is taking away all the stars.

However by next summer my gps will be a knot reader only. I want to be able to navigate and chart by hand and instrument only.

Your right about the bahamas. When i was a boy most the boats were under thirty five feet now they are all forty five or up with older ppl on board. Thats why i plan to head south past exuma to the out islands. Self sufficency is my goal. Right now i moved, or motored here, two weeks ago. Tonight i start work a t the best restraunt in town as a server from four to ten and monday i start for century mngt as a maintenace man pulling sixteen per hour. So im looking at about forty five k atleast this year. Thats twenty more than ive ever had. So exciting because i only need six or seven hunrded a month to cover all expenses so i should be able to save over twenty this year alone. Good thing i already have my passport!

If you work hard and give effort good thingd will come. If you sit around waiting for oppurtunity to find you expect to be there awhile. Where do you live now capt. Aaron?


----------



## elspru

abrahamx said:


> uuuuuh, most young folk dont have that kind of time or money. I'm in my fourtys and with halfway decent job making around 70k I barely have enough cash to get a 40 year old boat.
> And forget about crusing. I might be able to afford a week or two off. How does one even acess their money while crusing. Or pay their bills for that matter?


The only way I can imagine that you are spending 70k without enough left over for a boat, is because you have an expensive car and/or expensive house or even other huge debts. Or possibly just a lot of frivilous expenditures, like fast-food, restaurants, parties, consumerist goods etc. 
Typically for world-cruising and things people just have their boat, and at most some cheap land-base somewhere, with minimial to more likely no debt at all.

Paying bills is easy enough with online payments. Accessing money is similarly easy, though any ABM can give you cash if needed.

If you were really serious about cruising, then you'd get a portable income.



> I'd have to somehow make a grand a week and get it back into my direct deposits so the bills get paid. Not an easy thing to do for most of us. If you are well off enough to do the cruising thing you are luckier than you think. Throw a million bucks in my bank and I'm there.


me my spouse and child somehow have more than enough money, making much less than half of what you make a year. 
So it's really not about how much you have, it's about how you use it... as many things in life ;-).


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## Harborless

elspru said:


> The only way I can imagine that you are spending 70k without enough left over for a boat, is because you have an expensive car and/or expensive house or even other huge debts. Or possibly just a lot of frivilous expenditures, like fast-food, restaurants, parties, consumerist goods etc.
> Typically for world-cruising and things people just have their boat, and at most some cheap land-base somewhere, with minimial to more likely no debt at all.
> 
> Paying bills is easy enough with online payments. Accessing money is similarly easy, though any ABM can give you cash if needed.
> 
> If you were really serious about cruising, then you'd get a portable income.
> 
> me my spouse and child somehow have more than enough money, making much less than half of what you make a year.
> So it's really not about how much you have, it's about how you use it... as many things in life ;-).


Nah I at first thought that too- but what if he is a father of three kids and putting them through college? There goes 30-40K right there.
Or he could be taking care of his elderly mother and so having to pay RN's to come in two or three times a week to provide care.
Perhaps he or a family member has a medical condition or disease- You know how expensive medical care is in the US even with insurance.

We should not judge what we do not know.

If however none of these scenarios apply THEN perhaps he should lower his expenses and focus on better ways to stretch that 70K which to me seems like a million bucks from my 15-20 k on average income.


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## mark2gmtrans

On banking while cruising. What you do is set up one bank account as your main account, you set up two other accounts, one with a Visa debit card and one with a MasterCard debit card, you will need both of these because depending on where you go one or the other will not be accepted. You manage your money via online banking from your main account funneling money by transfers in lumpsums into the others as needed. The reason you do this is to protect your main account from possible fraud, and to have funds available on both the others.

Personally what I have done in the past was to buy some travellers cheques and use them in some cases and the debit cards as needed for paying clearance fees, customs, zarpes, and so forth. I used travellers cheques whenever I was paying marina fees and to exchange for local currency in banks. You will have to declare any cash or travellers cheques you have on board in your safe, and you need to be VERY careful about not allowing people to see you pulling out cash. Also, be aware that in many countries there are highly skilled pickpockets, some are small children, they come up and are extremely friendly, and when they hug you or brush up against you they take your wallet. Some of them can take your Rolex off of your arm so skillfully that you will not notice it until you go to look at the time...by which time it is too late.

Having said that, you will also meet many wonderful people and you will see many beautiful places, just make sure you are friendly but vigilant at all time. Not every child you meet is a pickpocket, not every person who motors close to you in a skiff is a pirate or scouting for pirates who will come later. Some are, and you need to keep your belongings secured at all times, try not to be one of those morons who is flashing his wealth in a place where your watch is worth more than most people earn in several years time. Awareness of your surroundings at all times is not just for while sailing, it is good practice and common sense on land or at sea. Plus that once you train yourself to be alert and aware you will be amazed at how much in life you have missed, simply because you were not paying attention. 

I wish you all good fortune and pleasant hours of peaceful sailing and memories of the places you visit.

Mark


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## peoples1234

elspru said:


> The only way I can imagine that you are spending 70k without enough left over for a boat, is because you have an expensive car and/or expensive house or even other huge debts. Or possibly just a lot of frivilous expenditures, like fast-food, restaurants, parties, consumerist goods etc.


You don't really know anything about his situation, or how he lives.

70K in the Metro DC are will get you an apartment in the ghetto and just enough to pay back your student loans in 15 years.

I don't know where he lives in Michigan, but 70K might just be squeaking by. The point is you don't know either.

Maybe he could do things differently, maybe not.

I know it costs a **** ton for me to live in the DC area, but it beats being unemployed somewhere else. I am young (27) and the only reason I can sail on a half way decent boat is because I went in half with my dad. Otherwise, I wouldn't be sailing in something big enough for my family to enjoy.


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## Capt.aaron

Harborless said:


> Elspru what an awesome mentality. We have much in common. I will pm you later to find more about you.
> 
> Aberahamx, you make plenty of money sir. I think you just choose to have too many expenses. House, cars, tvs, eating out perhaps? Ive never made more then 25ki in my life until this year and let me tell you if i spent two years making 70 i would have no debt, a nice boat, a new vespa scooter, and be taking vacations to india, burma, costa rica, thailand ect where my dollars stretched like warm plastic.
> 
> Perhaps instead of focusing on your investments you should focus on expenses?
> 
> For all i know yo putting three kids through college and supporting a wife in chemo which would make you a saint. I know nothing of your personal situation. I just know the more stuff we buy the less freedom we have. Good luck to you sir.
> 
> Capt. Aaron well done truly. My boat is basic but it does have gps and an inboard diesel and a solar panal and three batteries and an inverted.
> 
> This is why i moved to new smyrna beach where my world class sailing uncle and semi world grandfatjer live. Yesterday i got my first real grip on dead reckoning. After my college astronomy class i will learn from them my sextant and celestial nav although i wonder if really irs worth it since light pollution is taking away all the stars.
> 
> However by next summer my gps will be a knot reader only. I want to be able to navigate and chart by hand and instrument only.
> 
> Your right about the bahamas. When i was a boy most the boats were under thirty five feet now they are all forty five or up with older ppl on board. Thats why i plan to head south past exuma to the out islands. Self sufficency is my goal. Right now i moved, or motored here, two weeks ago. Tonight i start work a t the best restraunt in town as a server from four to ten and monday i start for century mngt as a maintenace man pulling sixteen per hour. So im looking at about forty five k atleast this year. Thats twenty more than ive ever had. So exciting because i only need six or seven hunrded a month to cover all expenses so i should be able to save over twenty this year alone. Good thing i already have my passport!
> 
> If you work hard and give effort good thingd will come. If you sit around waiting for oppurtunity to find you expect to be there awhile. Where do you live now capt. Aaron?


Well right now I live in Guanaja, Honduras and work as merchant marine out of Miami. I fly back and forth every two weeks. 2 on, 2 off. I just sailed my engineless boat down there for the ump-teenth time and plan on leaving it down there for while. When I'm not living in Honduras, I'm based out of key West. Which is where I spent a lot of my 20's, working for a few months as a boat captain, barback or painter or all three at once sometimes, and then cruising the western Carib. and Central America the rest of the year. I did that pretty much from 18 til 35. As I aproached my 40's ( I'm 42 and 1/2 now) I sought out more permanent emplyment in the commercial side of boating, now I''m working the Tugs. That's me in a Nut Shell. Basically I live 1/2 my life on an old tug boat, and the other half where ever the wife is. Right now it's the Bay Islands.


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## KarlP

elspru said:


> The only way I can imagine that you are spending 70k without enough left over for a boat, is because you have an expensive car and/or expensive house or even other huge debts. Or possibly just a lot of frivilous expenditures, like fast-food, restaurants, parties, consumerist goods etc.
> Typically for world-cruising and things people just have their boat, and at most some cheap land-base somewhere, with minimial to more likely no debt at all.


I think to a future looking personality type that is a trailer sailor budget. To a live for the moment personality type, it is easily a long distance boat budget.

Are any of you young cruisers saving for retirement? Are you middle aged cruisers with kids saving for your kids college education? I believe these costs have changed a bit since the 70s.

There are few pensions available for young people these days. The equivalent of a $40k/yr cola pension that was common for retirees only a decade ago is $1M in a 401k. I'm in my mid-30s I personally expect enough inflation over the next 30-50 years that I don't see $40k/yr being a luxurious retirement when I get there. I also hope to get a full social security payout, but I don't think I can count on the full amount so far in the future. So I want more than $1M when the time comes.

Start with a 70k salary. Subtract 20k in social security, medicare, federal income, state income, and local property taxes.

Lets say I plan to enjoy retirement and save 12k/yr between a 401k and Roth IRA.

Lets say I plan to pay for my kids college education like my parents did for me. In state tuition for state universities is up to an average of $22k/year and increasing about 7% every year. That means $550k to send my kids (2 and 7) to a typical in-state state university. Lets hope for 20% in scholarships and 8% return on 529 plans. I still need to save 7k per year per child for state university.

Subtract $3k for employee contributions to health insurance

Subtract $1k for liability insurance

So 70k - 15k taxes - 12k retirement - 14k college savings - 3k health insurance - 1k liability insurance = $25k net spending money

Even if someone owns a modest home and car outright and doesn't spend a lot on fast-food, restaurants, parties, consumerist goods etc, I can easily picture a long distance cruising boat and its ongoing costs beyond the budget of someone with a $70k/yr salary ... IF they are thinking about the future.


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## mark2gmtrans

I hear a lot of people who say they are planning for the future, and that is great, but the future has a way of slipping up on us and catching us and we still have not accomplished much of what we set out to do in life. If you plan on being a millionaire at retirement and having paid for your children's extremely expensive education that most of them will not use, then fine, that is great. Just do not postpone living your life in the present for a life you are not promised in the future. It would be a tragedy to live out a life of hard work in preparation for the future and then croak about the time you are ready to spend the money and start living for the present.


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## wolfenzee

Harborless said:


> Nah I at first thought that too- but what if he is a father of three kids and putting them through college? There goes 30-40K right there.
> Or he could be taking care of his elderly mother and so having to pay RN's to come in two or three times a week to provide care.
> Perhaps he or a family member has a medical condition or disease- You know how expensive medical care is in the US even with insurance.
> 
> We should not judge what we do not know.
> 
> If however none of these scenarios apply THEN perhaps he should lower his expenses and focus on better ways to stretch that 70K which to me seems like a million bucks from my 15-20 k on average income.


As things are now my income is barely enough for me to squeak by in the Pacific Northwest (weather dictates I keep my boat in a marina most of the year)....but I can support two living very comfortably in another country on my 10Knincome.


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## Harborless

Which is why in 3-5 I will be moving to India. $7000 USD is over $420,000 of their money. and rooms go for under $110 per night there money, and I will have much more than 7 K USD. Oh yea baby.
Add all my degrees and skill sets and that money will really streeeeeettttcccccch. Cannot wait!
Plus ill marry some indian or Asian hotty that is not obsessed with all the crap these chicks are that I just run through like months on my calendar. Sure they are a good time but a good investment? hahahahahahahaha
wait not done,
hahahahahahahaha
AMerican girls? Nah. Im not rich enough. Even if I was they would cheat with the pool boy when I start to sag. and microwave dinners are not my idea of a home cooked meal.
You guys can havem.
hahahahahaha- okay that was the last one.


----------



## Capt.aaron

I moved to Central America when I was 19 for the same reasons. The Financial ones, I'm fine with the women in the states. I like Girls who I can carry a conversation with, same humor and basic back ground, language. But have found keeping my boat is more affordable, and my American earned money, as little that I earn, puts me in good way down there. That is another reason key West has been a home base. It's a few day's sail from Central America. An easy commute. Work in the states, save some money and sail back down. Now as a Merchant Marine, I think I've found the perfect ballance of work and sail. 10 day's ago, I was sailing around the one of the pretty'est Caribbean Islands I've ever been to. In 4 Day's I'll be back down there doing it again....with my American girl.


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## Sal Paradise

elspru said:


> The only way I can imagine that you are spending 70k without enough left over for a boat, is because you have an expensive car and/or expensive house or even other huge debts. Or possibly just a lot of frivilous expenditures, like fast-food, restaurants, parties, consumerist goods etc.
> .


 -here in metro NY if I was making $70k per year I'd be lucky to sail my old sunfish in a pond and live in my Dad's basement. Sad but true.

Taking care of a family the old fashioned way is very expensive.

* and 2 kids in college is running about $30k/ year even though both kids got partial scholarships.


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## Jgbrown

elspru said:


> spent three days reading this thread..
> 
> We have an annual family income of less than 30k courtesy of God (the government) -- didn't know they gave out free money before casting for stable income for doing nothing. Admittedly it's a smart thing they did, social-security or SIN as it's called in Canada (social insurance). if they weren't robbing the rich for the benefit of the poor in an automated fashion, I'd have to go back to piracy, as been doing for millenia. Those skills aren't required in this lifetime at the moment, working on new skills, like long-life having a family and garden.


Sorry, do you mean you're living off of Welfare(Social Insurance), when you are both perfectly capable of working? If so, I'm afraid I really don't agree with the way that you are preparing for cruising...

The rest sounds pretty good though. I sold my first boat after a lot of learning and a lot of upgrades, now I'm working 7 days a week and living in a storage locker, which will soon lead to a much nicer and bigger boat I hope, the kind I could afford living comfortably every day.


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## mark2gmtrans

elspru said:


> spent three days reading this thread..
> 
> *In all my lifetimes*, there has never been such a ridiculous overabundance of wealth just pouring in every door, nook and cranny -- just yesterday I found a toonie($2) on the ground. *Neither my wife or me, work for others/money, we have an apartment in an upscale neighbourhood, eat delicious organic food, have a baby, and still manage to save $250-$500 a month towards a sailboat and property.*
> 
> *We have an annual family income of less than 30k courtesy of God (the government) -- didn't know they gave out free money before casting for stable income for doing nothing. * Admittedly it's a smart thing they did, social-security or SIN as it's called in Canada (social insurance). *if they weren't robbing the rich for the benefit of the poor in an automated fashion, I'd have to go back to piracy, as been doing for millenia. Those skills aren't required in this lifetime at the moment*, working on new skills, like long-life having a family and garden. *Though if TSHTF hard enough maybe will have some fun  Yarr. * Most likely it wont though, and technology going to keep going forward towards the technological singularity, then can have fun with reproducing robots  om. Hey that'll also be more young "people" even if robots, since this world is water, best way to get around to remote areas outside government-control is via the water -- would probably have to dodge all those luddites that don't like self-replicating robots.


A few things struck me about this post...

1. Elspru nor his wife have a job.

2. They live off of welfare and they feel they are entitled to it.

3. If TSHTF hard enough he plans on going to piracy for a living, meaning he is a thief at heart and possibly would not mind murdering people, as this is what pirates do.

4. He believes that he has been alive for centuries and has been reincarnated somehow.....

Conclusion on basis of empirical evidence...ELSPRU is nuts :laugher

I knew anyone who was some kind of vegan would show up to be a nut LOL. I mean if you do not like steak and milk and cheese you just have to have a few screws loose.

I am surely going to have to keep this in the back of my mind when seeing future posts.


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## Harborless

I didnt catch that.
Anyone living in willing idleness is only increasing the burden on their fellow man. A man works for his food. A boy ask for handouts. Sorry.


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## wolfenzee

OOPs did the math wrong my income is $13K...which in the US is still poor, but in Central America should be just fine.


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## Capt.aaron

wolfenzee said:


> OOPs did the math wrong my income is $13K...which in the US is still poor, but in Central America should be just fine.


Thousand bucks a month is good, you need about that much to live well.


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## northoceanbeach

I don't think he said he was a vegan.


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## mark2gmtrans

northoceanbeach said:


> I don't think he said he was a vegan.


Oh ye of little faith...

From the Living with Livestock aboard thread



elspru said:


> *As a pesco-vegan *just wanted to say how sad I am for the cows having their young ones taken away, all so some humans could have milk long after they themselves have been weaned.
> 
> A much easier alternative is simply to use vegan milk, all you need is a blender, water, and some kind of nut, like almond, coconut or your choice. Coconut cream (coco milk concentrated), unlike powdered milk tastes great and is good for you.


Not only does he state he is some sort of pesky vegan, but he suggest you drink nut milk.

You should know by now that I do not pull stuff out of my arse...

Just for giggle here are the definitions for a pesky or pesco vegan from Urban Dictionary



> 1. pesco-vegan
> 
> One who follows a diet that includes seafood like fish and shellfish but excludes all other animal products, including terrestrial meat, dairy products, fish, and animal by-products.
> My pesco-vegan friend loved sashimi too much to give it up.
> 
> 2. pesco-vegan
> 
> One who follows a strict Vegan Diet:
> 
> no beef, poultry, seafood, eggs, dairy, honey or gelatin while avoiding wearing/buying/owning fur, down, silk & leather.
> 
> with the ONLY exception being the consumption fish (i.e. farm raised salmon or tuna)
> Vegetarians & Pescetarians may eggs and dairy.
> 
> Vegans & Pesco-Vegans do not eat eggs or dairy, honey or gelatin. They avoid wearing/buying/owning fur, down, silk & leather.
> 
> 3. pesco-vegan
> 
> A creature that does not exist. It is impossible to be vegan and eat fish. It is like saying you are an Atheist-Christian.
> 
> V- I'm vegan.
> PV- Oh really? I'm a pesco-vegan!
> V- ?


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## Capt Len

It's obvious that the world is full of weirdos, wackos and losers mingling with the normal folks.Sometimes it's hard to figure which category you belong to. But with all the whining and sniveling about how hard life is I thought I'd tell you about today, My 70 th birthday and I sailed the boat I built 40 years ago for 6 hours in the sun with 12 knots of wind. The guests on board , all educated ,interesting and moneyed, enjoyed the sailing and left me with over 12 hundred dollars for the cruising fund. I do this for 3 months a year and spend winters in Thailand . I realize this is a tough life but I've made my choices and I have to live with that .


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## mark2gmtrans

Capt Len said:


> It's obvious that the world is full of weirdos, wackos and losers mingling with the normal folks.Sometimes it's hard to figure which category you belong to. But with all the whining and sniveling about how hard life is I thought I'd tell you about today, My 70 th birthday and I sailed the boat I built 40 years ago for 6 hours in the sun with 12 knots of wind. The guests on board , all educated ,interesting and moneyed, enjoyed the sailing and left me with over 12 hundred dollars for the cruising fund. I do this for 3 months a year and spend winters in Thailand . I realize this is a tough life but I've made my choices and I have to live with that .


I think that is great, and wish you a Happy Birthday! and wish you many more. I hope that I will also be able to enjoy sailing on my own 70th birthday, and if I can get people to kick in that much for a day on the boat I will have a birthday or three a week LOL.


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## northoceanbeach

Well there you go. I haven't heard of a Pesci vegan before. I thought you thought he was a vegan because he sai he eats organic. I am however a pescetarian and I can tell you we are not all that strange. Not a bad diet really. Very healthy.


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## Capt.aaron

In my 20's, I would work in this yard for a freind on Big Pine key doing, ya know, yard work. I lived on my boat out on the hook. I was the only boat out in a secluded lagoon, just north of the No Name bridge. I rowed in every morning and rode my bike to his house. I would rake up his yard and would not eat untill a Guava fell off the tree. I would'nt even pick one. I weighed about 100 pounds less than I do now. I get the whole Idealistic young man gunna live the natural way stuff. Now on the tug boat I eat any cut of meat from any kind of animal. Almost. I also don't condone the living on the Dole thing. I did however, 20 years ago, load 6 months worth of rice and beans on my boat using food stamps. I hated the Government and the state of the world in my early 20's. I have paid this back to society ten fold through charity and food drive donations. In my 30's I understood the world a little better and wanted to change it for the better some how. Now, in my 40's.....I'm hungry in the morning and a little tired in the afternoon. I feel like working enough to support my wife, life, and put some away for my future, and Sail. I really like to sail...and drink....I like to sail and drink. I've set my self up where I'm the only boat in a big tropical bay, where the wind alway's blows out of the east in the afternoon, and the water is so clear you can see a coral head a 1/4 mile away. it's all about the choices you make as young man that will dictate how you end up in middle age. I did'nt procreate. I felt the world had enough people in it. I certainaly did'nt feel so friken specail that the world would be a better place with a bunch of little me's running around in it. Nor did I feel I was bringing home an income that would provide a decent upbringing to a child. I waited till 40 to marry my girlfriend of 15 years, just to be sure I was sure. How it is people who are bringing in 70 grand a year can't find a way to be hugely successful with that kind of flow boggles me. I found a gig where I was push'n 80 g's once. I made enough the first year to move to Isla Mujeres, rent out Corona's old abandoned wharehouse, and build a 3000 square foot night Club in side. Wilma took it, but that's not the point. Choices. Young people. That is it. If you are serious about living the life of a sailor, it can be extremely afforadable if the right choices are made early on. So much so it ends up being the only thing you can afford. If you wait to get in the game after you've walked the path of the Landlubber, it get's harder and harder and more and more expensive. It takes extreme sacrifice and life change. I was lucky in that by living the life of a sailor, I married a sailor girl. It's hard to convince a girl from town to try the life out there. Kid's and the Girl you choose are going to dictate what you are able to do later in life. I've been ranting so long I forgot which thread this is. This is Gear and maintenance right?


----------



## mark2gmtrans

northoceanbeach said:


> Well there you go. I haven't heard of a Pesci vegan before. I thought you thought he was a vegan because he sai he eats organic. I am however a pescetarian and I can tell you we are not all that strange. Not a bad diet really. Very healthy.


North, You may be a pescetarian or a Presbyterian or whatever, but I have not seen you claim (yet ) to be a reincarnated pirate living off of welfare. You also seem to be a somewhat reasonable person and decent enough. I like the fishes because the fishes are delicious, and I eat some veggies too, but I do not mind a nice medium rare porterhouse steak laying there next to the shrimp and salmon and veggies either.

When living on a boat I believe I will be eating a lot more fish, because it will be very much impossible to resist the urge to fish and then eat the fish I catch.


----------



## Harborless

Cool stuff aaaron. Im with you man. Im stacking chips now and three to five im outty. 30 is the cut age no matter what. I think i can do it in 3. Makes me 28.


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## Capt.aaron

Harborless said:


> Cool stuff aaaron. Im with you man. Im stacking chips now and three to five im outty. 30 is the cut age no matter what. I think i can do it in 3. Makes me 28.


At 28, I had owned and cruised on my boat for 10 years, and spent most of the 10 years prior to that living and cruising on the same boat with my grand father, so I was ready for a change and sick of being married to my boat, so I divorced her, sold her, and traveled for 2 years on land with the money. At 30 I moved back to Key West, got a contruction job from the dude I had sold her to, and bought her back through labour...1/2 my pay check. Every road has at least a trail at the end of it you can bush wack your way out of, a cliff you can scale or a body of water you can cross, I've never met a dead end.


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## hannah2

KarlP said:


> I think to a future looking personality type that is a trailer sailor budget. To a live for the moment personality type, it is easily a long distance boat budget.
> 
> Are any of you young cruisers saving for retirement? Are you middle aged cruisers with kids saving for your kids college education? I believe these costs have changed a bit since the 70s.
> 
> There are few pensions available for young people these days. The equivalent of a $40k/yr cola pension that was common for retirees only a decade ago is $1M in a 401k. I'm in my mid-30s I personally expect enough inflation over the next 30-50 years that I don't see $40k/yr being a luxurious retirement when I get there. I also hope to get a full social security payout, but I don't think I can count on the full amount so far in the future. So I want more than $1M when the time comes.
> 
> Start with a 70k salary. Subtract 20k in social security, medicare, federal income, state income, and local property taxes.
> 
> Lets say I plan to enjoy retirement and save 12k/yr between a 401k and Roth IRA.
> 
> Lets say I plan to pay for my kids college education like my parents did for me. In state tuition for state universities is up to an average of $22k/year and increasing about 7% every year. That means $550k to send my kids (2 and 7) to a typical in-state state university. Lets hope for 20% in scholarships and 8% return on 529 plans. I still need to save 7k per year per child for state university.
> 
> Subtract $3k for employee contributions to health insurance
> 
> Subtract $1k for liability insurance
> 
> So 70k - 15k taxes - 12k retirement - 14k college savings - 3k health insurance - 1k liability insurance = $25k net spending money
> 
> Even if someone owns a modest home and car outright and doesn't spend a lot on fast-food, restaurants, parties, consumerist goods etc, I can easily picture a long distance cruising boat and its ongoing costs beyond the budget of someone with a $70k/yr salary ... IF they are thinking about the future.


Again I'm not wanting to be cruel here but the guy that posted this and others like him have no chance of being a 20 or 30 something serious cruiser. This guy is your average person who lives an average life full of commitments to society, he dreams a little but that is it, nothing wrong with that. But young cruisers even those with plenty of money can not even think of living this life style mentioned above. You want to be a cruiser? Then screw your kids college education savings and let them eventually pay for it latter or send them to trade school some day. Save your money to go cruising and home school your kids, the education you and your family will get is way better than a Harvard education, believe me.

Sick or aging parents? Say good by to them and go. If I was dying and my kids wanted to go sailing around the world but would not leave so he or she could take care of me I would beat them to their senses then shoot myself to make sure they could go.

To be a full time cruiser you have to be selfish, sorry but that is what it takes no matter how much money you have rich or poor. We give to others when we can, even my kids get a little help when can. We always help local people with electrical, water and medical as that is what we have done with our lives working so we can continue sailing, so we help other in what we do best.

When I read on this thread that there are only a few young people they see out there sailing all over the place it is true but that makes sense because there are only maybe 15,000 world wide doing serious cruising and I would guess that maybe a third of them are under 40. That is not a bad number and the percent of young sailing is the same as when I crossed the Pacific for the first time in the early 1970's as a 20 year old. And I might add it is a lot more fun now than back then, much more fun!

You know this Wolfe guy from PT will make it in my book. I know I give him a hard time and he may be a bit of a whiner but he knows what he needs to do to go. I'll be curious to see if he is tough enough to go far. Most people I see post here do not appear to have what it takes but that is normal as only a few in the world understand the sacrifice it takes to really go. And it is actually harder for the wealthy to go than the poor, think about that if you have the ability to understand the selfishment and commitment it take to go.

There are a few here we look forward to meeting maybe some day in the years ahead be they young or old they have the desire. But most of you will always be at home paying your kids education, taking care of sick and aging parents, working to the bone so you can pay for all the crap you think you and your family need. We know the world cruising destinations on the most part will not be crowded so as it is not fun to do anymore because most of you won't get it done. Sorry I'm not being an ass just telling you the way it has been over the last 50 years that people have been serious cruising and it is not going to change that much.

I wish you who sacrifice almost everything to do this dream a safe well kept boat and fair winds. For those who dream but will never get it done I wish you peace and pleasure in your dreams. I wish nothing for those who don't dream.

Cheers

Steve and T

SV RCLouise


----------



## wolfenzee

mark2gmtrans said:


> Oh ye of little faith...
> 
> From the Living with Livestock aboard thread
> 
> Not only does he state he is some sort of pesky vegan, but he suggest you drink nut milk.
> 
> You should know by now that I do not pull stuff out of my arse...
> 
> Just for giggle here are the definitions for a pesky or pesco vegan from Urban Dictionary


I eat food because it makes ME feel good....not because someone one else says I should or should not feel good about eating something.


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## jeffreyosborne90

I'm 22. Live with my girlfriend who's 19 and were just now getting into the leisure of ocean cruising. I've been around boats on lakes for 15+ years so the whole pacific crusing is all new to me. I recently bought a 78 bayliner victoria 2750 sunbridge and I love it. Just getting it all prepared with my nav equipment but still fairly new with this scene. I was looking at sailboats but ones i liked were a bit high for my pricerange. I happened to come across this power cabin cruiser for a really good price I couldn't pass up. Now its all just a preparation for the water. Like I said I'm all new at this but I hope to meet some fellow sailors out here in the future of my voyages maybe even pick up some buddy boats to learn a lot from. Feel free to message me with tips you may have for us young guns. Or if ur interested in any buddy boats let me know. I live in cerritos cali so I generally cruise the long beach waters.here is a picture of my vessel


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## elspru

Jeff, unless you have near bottomless pockets, which seems unlikely, you can't do ocean-cruising with a power-boat, it's like a gallon per nautical mile with some of those. 
Sure power-cruisers are cheap to buy, the cheapest boats in the sailboats section on kjiji are miscategorized power boats, ranging from free to $7. Likely because it's so expensive to use them. 
Most power-cruisers stay at the dock all the time, 
and if they want to go a little farther than the next port, they switch over to a sailing buddies' boat. 

So if you plan to get across the pacific or even to hawaii, sell the power cruiser or give it back and get a sailboat, even if it's smaller or requires repairs, you'll save big money long term not having to pay for every mile.

KarlP, with that little left over, would be the same amount me and my family is making, so can still save up to move onto a boat. 

Mark, ya, the pensions and schooling savings seems rather silly, given that they were nearly nullified after the 2008 crash, and the underlying issues haven't been solved, merely bandaged. 
I came to the conclusion that a much better pension-plan is to have children and intentional-community,
raised with attachment-parenting and homeschooling or community equivalent.

Oh and sure, I'm not your average Joe, but he doesn't go sailing either.
Also the pirate stuff of yesteryear stays there, in this new world things are quite different. 
The focus however is on freedom, libre, and yes plain old free, like when we were hunter-gatherers, 
we didn't have to pay to live, we simply got and made what we needed. In a truly lawful society,
that basis it's laws on precedent, the past ways of living should be available in the present. 
Indeed it is diversity that allows for maximum adaptability of a species.
Anyways in contemporary society there are some routes which promote freedom, 
non-profit/co-operatives, copyleft, open-source software, hardware, DIY, sailing, I support and practice them all.

Hannah, I like your point , a certain amount of sacrifice is certainly necessary, the benefits of cruising have to outweigh them of course.
Sure just as with accomplishing many things out of the norm, selfishness plays a role, since your dreams must outweigh others.

For all those averse to government income, 
it may be a programmed response, as the poor are often scapegoated,
especially in news media owned by the very rich. 

Personally, I have a small online business, selling various things non-profit (I see profit as theft), only basic cost of materials and labour, with instructions available to DIY. 
Otherwise what this world really needs, isn't more money, but rather good examples of simple and sustainable living -- sailing, biking, forest-gardening, Eco-communities. This is one my main life missions at the moment.
Jeff, unless you have near bottomless pockets, which seems unlikely, you can't do ocean-cruising with a power-boat, it's like a gallon per nautical mile with some of those.
Sure power-cruisers are cheap to buy, the cheapest boats in the sailboats section on kjiji are miscategorized power boats, ranging from free to $7. Likely because it's so expensive to use them.
Most power-cruisers stay at the dock all the time,
and if they want to go a little farther than the next port, they switch over to a sailing buddies' boat.

So if you plan to get across the pacific or even to hawaii, sell the power cruiser or give it back and get a sailboat, even if it's smaller or requires repairs, you'll save big money long term not having to pay for every mile.

KarlP, with that little left over, would be the same amount me and my family is making, so can still save up to move onto a boat.

Mark, ya, the pensions and schooling savings seems rather silly, given that they were nearly nullified after the 2008 crash, and the underlying issues haven't been solved, merely bandaged.
I came to the conclusion that a much better pension-plan is to have children and intentional-community,
raised with attachment-parenting and homeschooling or community equivalent.

Oh and sure, I'm not your average Joe, but he doesn't go sailing either.
Also the pirate stuff of yesteryear stays there, in this new world things are quite different.
The focus however is on freedom, libre, and yes plain old free, like when we were hunter-gatherers,
we didn't have to pay to live, we simply got and made what we needed. In a truly lawful society,
that basis it's laws on precedent, the past ways of living should be available in the present.
Indeed it is diversity that allows for maximum adaptability of a species.
Anyways in contemporary society there are some routes which promote freedom,
non-profit/co-operatives, copyleft, open-source software, hardware, DIY, sailing, I support and practice them all.

Hannah, I like your point , a certain amount of sacrifice is certainly necessary, the benefits of cruising have to outweigh them of course.
Sure just as with accomplishing many things out of the norm, selfishness plays a role, since your dreams must outweigh others.

For all those averse to government income,
it may be a programmed response, as the poor are often scapegoated,
especially in news media owned by the very rich.

Personally, I have a small online business, selling various things non-profit (I see profit as theft), only basic cost of materials and labour, with instructions available to DIY.
Otherwise what this world really needs, isn't more money, but rather good examples of simple and sustainable living -- sailing, biking, forest-gardening, Eco-communities. This is one my main life missions at the moment. 

Wolfen, I eat what allows me to be optimally healthy based on nutritional guidelines, and minimizing contaminants.


----------



## jeffreyosborne90

elspru said:


> Jeff, unless you have near bottomless pockets, which seems unlikely, you can't do ocean-cruising with a power-boat, it's like a gallon per nautical mile with some of those.
> Sure power-cruisers are cheap to buy, the cheapest boats in the sailboats section on kjiji are miscategorized power boats, ranging from free to $7. Likely because it's so expensive to use them.
> Most power-cruisers stay at the dock all the time,
> and if they want to go a little farther than the next port, they switch over to a sailing buddies' boat.
> 
> So if you plan to get across the pacific or even to hawaii, sell the power cruiser or give it back and get a sailboat, even if it's smaller or requires repairs, you'll save big money long term not having to pay for every mile.
> 
> KarlP, with that little left over, would be the same amount me and my family is making, so can still save up to move onto a boat.
> 
> The 350 in the boat is getting about 6 nautic
> 
> Mark, ya, the pensions and schooling savings seems rather silly, given that they were nearly nullified after the 2008 crash, and the underlying issues haven't been solved, merely bandaged.
> Oh and sure, I'm not your average Joe, but he doesn't go sailing either.
> Also the pirate stuff of yesteryear stays there, in this new world things are quite different.
> 
> Hannah, I like your point , a certain amount of sacrifice is certainly necessary, the benefits of cruising have to outweigh them of course.
> Sure just as with accomplishing many things out of the norm, selfishness plays a role, since your dreams must outweigh others.
> 
> For all those averse to government income, nautical
> it may be a programmed response, as the poor are often scapegoated,
> especially in news media owned by the very rich.
> 
> Personally, I have a small online business, selling various things non-profit (I see profit as theft), only basic cost of materials and labour, with instructions available to DIY.
> Otherwise what this world really needs, isn't more money, but rather good examples of simple and sustainable living -- sailing, biking, forest-gardening, eco-communities. This is one my main life missions at the moment.


The 350 smallblock is getting about 6-8 nautical miles per gallons though I can i nly hold 50 gallons in the boat. I got a good deal which I couldn't pass up and ill remodel the whole living area to double maybe even triple the money I'd have into it. I have all tools and connections to completely remodel for cheap or next to a few hundred dollars. I feel I can gain experience in learning the ocean on a powerboat. But id like to stepup to a sail when the time and prices are right.  i mainly want to be able to get back n forth to catalina and maybe some day cruises thru the harbors and coastlines


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## mark2gmtrans

elspru said:


> .....
> Personally, I have a small online business, selling various things non-profit (*I see profit as theft*), only basic cost of materials and labour, with instructions available to DIY....


I know it might be a shock, but in order to have a business, on of the key elements is to have a profit. If you are not making a profit, you have a hobby and not a business. Profit is what allows you to buy your stock inventory and pay for things like supplies for the next project. If all you cover is labour and materials for the current project what you are doing is operating a business at a loss, which is called being bankrupt.

I suspect you are not nearly so averse to profit when it is in your pockets, you just do not want anyone who has worked harder and has more stuff than you to make a profit, because having more than you would be evil LOL.

Oh, and government cannot possibly take from the poor and give to the rich, the bloody poor do not have anything to take. Haha.


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## mark2gmtrans

jeffreyosborne90 said:


> The 350 smallblock is getting about 6-8 nautical miles per gallons though I can i nly hold 50 gallons in the boat. I got a good deal which I couldn't pass up and ill remodel the whole living area to double maybe even triple the money I'd have into it. I have all tools and connections to completely remodel for cheap or next to a few hundred dollars. I feel I can gain experience in learning the ocean on a powerboat. But id like to stepup to a sail when the time and prices are right.  i mainly want to be able to get back n forth to catalina and maybe some day cruises thru the harbors and coastlines


I never had a power boat that got that good of fuel mileage, and I have owned several. You might want to check on that MPG estimate.


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## jeffreyosborne90

mark2gmtrans said:


> I never had a power boat that got that good of fuel mileage, and I have owned several. You might want to check on that MPG estimate.


Its got a newly bought in 05 new 5.7 fuel injected 350. It does fairly decent on fuel. Not gonna say the best but from wat I've averaged was not much difference than my massivly lift truck eith the same motor


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## Jgbrown

elspru said:


> For all those averse to government income,
> it may be a programmed response, as the poor are often scapegoated,
> especially in news media owned by the very rich.


It's not government income, it's Welfare. Which is a financial support for those who are unable to work to support themselves.
You could more justly call it "everyone else's taxes" since it is the taxes the rest of us pay that make up what you consider fair income.

Glad to know that while I live with next to nothing(not even a window!), working 7 days a week on other people's boats so we make enough after shop expenses to pay everyone involved a fair wage(starting at 15$/hr), on which I am slowly saving for a simple sailboat again someday, that my taxes and theirs are going to help fund your future cruising...

NOT.
Government income indeed.


EDIT: We don't even build in much of a profit, we charge just enough that everyone makes a fair wage. Perhaps you could do that with your activities, and simply reduce the cost until you support yourself with your own work, instead of living off the labour of others.


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## Harborless

Yea. Grow up. Your just being a leech.
dont own a boat.
have a welfare baby.
i hope someone here reports you.
stop being a parasite.
we are same age. Get it together.
i hope your reported.
get a job. Not a soap box.
set an example for your kid. Stop living off other peoples dimes.


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## jeffreyosborne90

I know right. I'm 22. Work very hard for what I got and for the little weekend freetimes I get. But in the end it mskes me happier considering all my hard work is paying off. Im a highschool dropout with a ged. Extensive record from being young and dumb. And I'm still happy to work and earn my living. Never do I plan to turn to government for help even if I didn't have a pot to piss in. I got pride to feed of others tax money. If I'm in that **** kind of situation. I obviously deserve to be there


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## mark2gmtrans

jeffreyosborne90 said:


> I know right. I'm 22. Work very hard for what I got and for the little weekend freetimes I get. But in the end it mskes me happier considering all my hard work is paying off. Im a highschool dropout with a ged. Extensive record from being young and dumb. And I'm still happy to work and earn my living. Never do I plan to turn to government for help even if I didn't have a pot to piss in. I got pride to feed of others tax money. If I'm in that **** kind of situation. I obviously deserve to be there


Young guys like you and harborless are okay in my book. You may have a lot to learn in some areas, but I do too, and I hope I never cease to learn. The one thing that it seems you have learned is not to be a bum. That will take you a long way in life. I can also tell you that there are enough small sailboats out there under $5,000.00 that if you want one you can find one and it will give you a good feeling to work and pay in cash for the things you own, so that you actually own them.

I may be rough on the young guys when they say things that are not correct, you will find that sailors and others who live a lot on the water or are the types who will or have lived on the water are pretty blunt. I am not a real gentle type, but I have not the least problem telling a man he has done well, so I will tell you and the other young men and women on sailnet that if you are working and making way toward your dreams, I congratulate you. I know it is not always easy, and I know it can seem like a battle you will never win, but persevere and you will overcome.


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## jeffreyosborne90

mark2gmtrans said:


> Young guys like you and harborless are okay in my book. You may have a lot to learn in some areas, but I do too, and I hope I never cease to learn. The one thing that it seems you have learned is not to be a bum. That will take you a long way in life. I can also tell you that there are enough small sailboats out there under $5,000.00 that if you want one you can find one and it will give you a good feeling to work and pay in cash for the things you own, so that you actually own them.
> 
> I may be rough on the young guys when they say things that are not correct, you will find that sailors and others who live a lot on the water or are the types who will or have lived on the water are pretty blunt. I am not a real gentle type, but I have not the least problem telling a man he has done well, so I will tell you and the other young men and women on sailnet that if you are working and making way toward your dreams, I congratulate you. I know it is not always easy, and I know it can seem like a battle you will never win, but persevere and you will overcome.


I appreciate that. I feel blunt and honesty makes a man. No need to beet around the bush. I tty hard. Not the richest but definitely not poor. U can say average. I am always open to criticism and willing to learn and take advice any way its given. Respect is a 2 way street gotta give respect to get. But some of us can be hard headed and don't want to take advise from others who are more wise. All I want is to have fun doing what I like to do and thats that
If I'm doing something wrong please tell me. Ill def change what I'm doing. I'm just here like the vast majority of people on sailnet. To learn from fellow experienced sailors and hopefully find some boating buddies


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## Jgbrown

jeffreyosborne90 said:


> I know right. I'm 22. Work very hard for what I got and for the little weekend freetimes I get. But in the end it mskes me happier considering all my hard work is paying off. Im a highschool dropout with a ged. Extensive record from being young and dumb. And I'm still happy to work and earn my living. Never do I plan to turn to government for help even if I didn't have a pot to piss in. I got pride to feed of others tax money. If I'm in that **** kind of situation. I obviously deserve to be there


Agree with that sentiment entirely, I'm 25 now. I learned a very painful lesson on my first boat over the last year, with a major refit completed and subsequent sale, I essentially lost more than I made before tax in the two previous years combined on the refit of the boat, with only a 15 minute sail to appreciate owning a boat. This cost more than I would have needed to travel around the whole world on my motorbike, all in chasing a dream, perhaps one best left to those with deeper pockets than me.

This year I'm working harder than I have ever worked, and bringing in less money, the downward trend in wages for manufacturing and technicians has been ongoing for several years now. I could simply chuck it in, stick to my weekend-evening desk job and move into subsidised low income housing, buy a TV and vegetate until my accounts recover. But I'll be damned if I'm going to rely on others to pay my way, when I can find a dry place to sleep and keep working hard until I get back on my feet, and get back on the water.
Not opposed to the finances being available for those in need, if I had a family and lost the ability to make ends meet I would swallow my pride and do what had to be done to keep them safe and fed. To use it without need seems wrong, if you can't rely on yourself now to provide for you family, what lesson are you teaching your children? How can you expect to rely on yourself out there where the government won't do it for you?


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## jeffreyosborne90

Jgbrown said:


> Agree with that sentiment entirely, I'm 25 now. I learned a very painful lesson on my first boat over the last year, with a major refit completed and subsequent sale, I essentially lost more than I made before tax in the two previous years combined on the refit of the boat, with only a 15 minute sail to appreciate owning a boat. This cost more than I would have needed to travel around the whole world on my motorbike, all in chasing a dream, perhaps one best left to those with deeper pockets than me.
> 
> This year I'm working harder than I have ever worked, and bringing in less money, the downward trend in wages for manufacturing and technicians has been ongoing for several years now. I could simply chuck it in, stick to my weekend-evening desk job and move into subsidised low income housing, buy a TV and vegetate until my accounts recover. But I'll be damned if I'm going to rely on others to pay my way, when I can find a dry place to sleep and keep working hard until I get back on my feet, and get back on the water.
> Not opposed to the finances being available for those in need, if I had a family and lost the ability to make ends meet I would swallow my pride and do what had to be done to keep them safe and fed. To use it without need seems wrong, if you can't rely on yourself now to provide for you family, what lesson are you teaching your children? How can you expect to rely on yourself out there where the government won't do it for you?


I feel exactly how you feel. I'm a double felon. Served some state prison time. I have to work teice as hard doing more crap job than average to get by since I can't usually pass a basic bavkground check to get a fairly above average job but I make do with what I got. Just moved back to long beach california from arixona and mind me, arizona is about 3x cheaper to live. And I'm managing to get by with me and my girlfriend just fine. Do I like and enjoy my jobs? Not one bit. But I do what I have to to be happy and successful in my way. Yeah I was born in 1990 which majority of people from my generation are inconsiderate, lazy , and used to things given to them buf I was brought up to work and appreciate what I have in life and have hope and dreams and goalz to hopefully accomplish in my life or at least have something to work and strive for.


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## Harborless

Ouch. No need to make THAT public.
Any of you in FL? Near Daytona? Ill take you sailing anytime im not working.
didnt know so many my age lurking here.


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## Harborless

Being humble. Hard lesson. I work on it daily. Its hard to rescist a good co*k measuring contest.


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## jeffreyosborne90

You know its all public records free online so I don't worry about it so much. I've had girlfrieds in the past whos parents googled me and texted me their search results haha. Well if I waz in the area I'd tskevu up on yhe offer


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## Harborless

I suggest you move asap. You will never get a fair shake in the usa unless you find a personal type employer. Save up, get your boat, then head south to where your criminal record has no way of being found out. Then you will have it made. Dont spend your golden years breaking yourself for min wage. Ive done lots of back breaking work. Now i serve tables at a place where an avg night brings 200 cash a fri or sat brings 400 and the record for the place is 850 in one night carrying plates with food in an air conditioned place bs"ing with rich folk and flirting with hotties.


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## Harborless

Since we inly open at 4pm i work mon through fri 8 am to 2 doing brick work only making 10 per. I like hard work and that extra 1400 per month is my bills rent and spending money. The other 3000 per goes into my investment portfolio with RBC Centura. Dont put your money in the bank where they pay you scratch and use it to grow themselves richer. Find yourself a good broker and invest you cash in mutual funds or if you want more risk something like BlackRock which is medium risk but higher return yields. I make money while i sleep. Dont wait until your 40 to catch that bus. Invest 300 per month and by 45 you will be a millionaire.


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## jeffreyosborne90

Yeah sounds like a very good plan u got gou ng. I been thinking about starting to find somekind of investments to look into. Yeah I work construction for a friend at 15 an hr thrn do restaurant cook work from 14-18/hr. So its alright but def always room fof expansion.


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## Harborless

Thats a good set up. So just make sure you are not eating out and buying designer clothes all the time and you should be able to buy a decent boat in a year or two- quicker if your GF contributes which she should. Buy DIY yourself books, post questions on here- these guys are great helpers- its when you get to opinions that they give you lots of flak because they say "your young- you dont know- sometimes they are right, 2/3rds they are wrong and stubborn- but they are still an excellent resource and much cheaper than learning yourself- and learn to do things yourself. 
First time I did a gelcoat repair I just globbed it over the spot and oh lord what a mess- you can still see the ugliness. By the third time I had it like the factory had done it.
If your GF does not contributed and does like my cousins gf and spends all her money on hair extensions and make-up and her own stuff then pass her to another guy and find a contributor. ALl she does is dress in pretty outfits, take pictures in fronjt of the upstairs mirror, and post them on instagram. Yea- shes def a hottie- with those 5K implants and 400$ per month makeup. Ill take a natural beaut in cut off jeans and a t shirt anyday.

Once you have your boat equipped and living on board then get a scooter under 50 CC so you dont need a motorcycle license or insurance. New scooters are 1K and have 6 to 1 yr warranties and go up to 45 mph. 
So- boat, then get rid of car or truck and go to scooter unless you have old truck that is reliable and cheap to insure- then invest. 
Five years from now you will have the money to begin taking summer vacations on your boat.
10 years from now you could be living off a beach in Thailand. 
Start with A- plan out Z and start chopping down the letters.
Im probably around L. So another 3-5 years and Z will be here and I will be in India with no debt, big savings, investments, two degrees, tons of practical skills like construction, mason work, electrical, ect, plus solo sailing knowledge and everything about restaurants- then a new A will be drawn up with a new Z and I will begin again but with much more time to smell the roses.


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## KarlP

hannah2 said:


> Again I'm not wanting to be cruel here but the guy that posted this and others like him have no chance of being a 20 or 30 something serious cruiser. This guy is your average person who lives an average life full of commitments to society, he dreams a little but that is it, nothing wrong with that. But young cruisers even those with plenty of money can not even think of living this life style mentioned above. You want to be a cruiser? Then screw your kids college education savings and let them eventually pay for it latter or send them to trade school some day.


I actually agree with you. Your average 20-somethings lucky enough to be making $70k are too scared to give it up for a few years in this economy where most of their friends are underemployed. Your average 30 & 40 somethings sail after work and on weekends/vacation within in a few hundred miles of home because they have burdoned themselves with kids, careers, and responsibilities. I think these are big reasons the "average" cruisers are in their 50s & 60s.


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## Harborless

Average- 
25 year old sailboat owners are not average. So your opine is not very sturdy.


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## mark2gmtrans

KarlP said:


> I actually agree with you. Your average 20-somethings lucky enough to be making $70k are too scared to give it up for a few years in this economy where most of their friends are underemployed. Your average 30 & 40 somethings sail after work and on weekends/vacation within in a few hundred miles of home because they have burdoned themselves with kids, careers, and responsibilities. I think these are big reasons the "average" cruisers are in their 50s & 60s.


I have no idea who decided that $70k per year was what is required to be able to sail, was there a meeting I missed? I think that most people who are actually cruising the world are making a WHOLE lot less than $70k per year, in fact I bet they are making not much at all.

You can buy a boat for under $20k that will do just fine, you will have to work on it, and fix it up a bit, but when there are many boats between $3,000.00 and $15,000.00 USD out there that are capable boats that just need some work on them along the way, a young person who is not married and tied down yet has a better chance of cruising the world than a 30 something with a great job.

Most of the people I actually know in the flesh who cruise, some who have done circumnavigations, do it on boats most of us would be afraid to get on, but they do it and it seems to work. You do not here of hundreds of little boats lost at sea every month, so they must be floating somewhere.

Once again, the key to living a dream is to work and make your dream come true, that is not subject to any age restrictions. There are people on here who have celebrated seven decades of life who are looking for a girlfriend to go sailing the world with them, and people who have not yet made two decades who are doing the same. I think the main ingredient for success in this lifestyle is something that cannot be quantified in a resume, it is called gumption, balls, fortitude, bravery, fearlessness and many other things, but what I like to call it is a spirit of adventure.

Many things in life require risk to attain them, wealth is one of them, true wealth is not earned by an hourly wage, it is earned by investing in dreams.


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## Capt Len

Keeping in the theme of wondering why the youngers aren't dreaming the same dream as we did, I can only offer solace to them with the sage that once you've tried elderly you'll never go back. Crap Diem!


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## mark2gmtrans

Capt Len said:


> Keeping in the theme of wondering why the youngers aren't dreaming the same dream as we did, I can only offer solace to them with the sage that once you've tried elderly you'll never go back.* Crap Diem!*


HAAHAA, yep metamucil for you every day


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## elspru

I guess my point was that the economy, driver's licences, and other social norms or mores are irrelevant to peoples ability to cruise. 
In fact the less you have to lose, the easier it is to move.

There has been an increasing amount of cruisers in general including young ones. 

On a per person basis, only things that matter are the will to go, and the persistence to follow through.


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## Sal Paradise

Well, it was hot this weekend. I took my boat out single handed while my 3 YA sons stayed in the AC and played video games. We didn't have such great video games when I was a kid, or AC. I was poor, lived in a city apartment and later a small house in a small town. I had nothing to do in the summer, just nothing. Well, I had my brother and sister and maybe a cousin or two to play hide and seek with. Otherwise, boredom was the norm and reading looking out the window or riding a bicycle was as good as it got. 

I would have killed for a sailboat to sail and a warm windy day and I still remember that. Now that I am grown up these day sails, and small trips are a fantasy come true.


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## SkipperK

I'm 24 and recently bought a Vic 18, I learned to sail a year ago. Gotta say I don't know many my age who sail.


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## hannah2

Ok old men and young kids it's time for the local survey here in Lisbon, Portugal while waiting for a weather window to the Canaries. We have met so many sailors of all types, ages and different boats so far. The further we get south the more we meet sailors getting ready to do the crossing to the carib. I want to tell you my guesses in the past are pretty much square on. There are actually more 20 and 30 somethings sailing than 50/60 somethings here in Europe and doing the crossing, I know that has always been the facts in the S. Pacific. I'm sitting in a wi fi cafe and I count 12 cruisers that I know that are making the crossing. Seven are in their 20's, three are in their early 30's and the other two and myself are old farts. We are hanging out with cruisers of all ages no one cares the age in the cruising community. I can't stay out all night like most of those young ones do here in Lisbon but Tracy and I hang on once in a while. 

Most of the young are sailing smaller boats in the 32 to 37 foot range and have one or two same age crew members on board. But some are sailing 40 plus boats, all used boats. We know what most of them did for a living here in Europe and it ranges from bar tenders, waiters to computer work, we have not met any of the 20/30 somethings that made equal to 70,000 USA dollars, far less.
The youngans who have kids on board are mostly from the Netherlands, then Germany. The young french mostly sail with a girl friend or another guy their age. The young women sailing are beautiful not only in looks but dam nice too. The ARC may have more old farts, I do not know but there are far more sailors who are not sailing in the ARC than those stupid enough,(my opinion) to spend that kind of money for no real reason.

Seems young and old Americans have become so isolated and scared of the future they just complain about what should be and could be if only. Most of these euro young people come from a lot worse economy than we are having in the USA. They look at it as a great time to cruise for a couple of years. Come on yankees if you have a real dream make it work. The only excuse is that you really do not want to do it you just like talking about it. If you need to get a divorce, quit your boring job, quit school and get a job abd save like hell for two years then do it, run away, run away like those of us that make it happen no matter what we must sacrifice and believe me it's a lot.

See you in the Carib this winter, then the Panama Canal and next April in the S. Pacific. Just do it and stop your crying, Christ, life is not a practice run it is the real thing!


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## unimacs

What sort of debt from college tuition does the typical European twenty something have to deal with?

Having worked with and lived near people with European backgrounds there are a few major differences in their approach to life that would also help explain this. Europeans take vacation much more seriously than we do. They get a lot more of it and they take it in bigger chunks. Plus they have a lot of the expenses that we have to deal with individually built into their tax system and/or covered by their employers. They don't worry about health care, child care, and retirement expenses the way we do.


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## Group9

All the young people I know are broke and scared of whether they will even have a job, or a full time job, in six months.

I came out in the work force in the early eighties and we had it made compared to these kids. I bought my first big boat, A Cape Dory 25D when I was 26 years old, a year after I had been on a job (who would feel that secure with just a year on at a job these days). I've got a stepson who is 23 and one who is 29, and they both are barely making it.

Of course, I got married early, and we lived off one salary while saving the other. Most kids now don't get married, even after they have babies.

It's a different economy, and kids today do a lot of things that hurt them financially to boot.


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## Sal Paradise

You can have no assets or a low income and its fine as long as you have someone or something to fall back on. Family can be a type of wealth. 

If not, if you are truly on your own and not wealthy - you better watch out. I started with nothing, no way home and no one to watch my back or support me at all...... and that taught me to watch out and support my adult kids so they can take some chances... and it taught me not to judge others so harshly.


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## Lou452

I think I like the idea that family can be a place to turn to for support. Not for cash but real support.
Fear of failure is why most folks do not do whatever they are very capable of doing. This would lead you to think the young would have less fear. Todays world is full of fear. Change can happen faster than ever. one would not set out to cross the sea out of season and in unpredictable changing weather. IE winter North Atlantic. You might say the young might be looking for better weather. Plans are what make dreams. Fail to plan = plan to fail. Good Day, Lou


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## Group9

The thing with kids is, that you want to be there to catch them if they need it, to give them confidence, but you don't want them to be so sure that you will catch them, that they don't try and make it on their own.

It's a tough balance, for sure. But, my parents seemed to get it right with me, so I try and follow their lead.


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## nodders

Our club did a members survey recently and, out of 237 responses, 0 were between the ages of 20-29, 3 were 30-39, 37 were 40-49. The vast majority were between 50 - 70 with 37 older than 70!

Younger people are attracted to the water but they tend to be on kite-boards, kayaks, white water canoes, or speedboats or evil jet skiis.

Perceptually, sailing is, unfortunately regarded as A. an older persons sport, or B. a rich persons sport. 

Interstingly, I have come across a lot of middle aged people who have got tired of driving in gridlock (I live in toronto where gridlock is a fact of life anytime) up to the cottage every weekend, sold their cottage and bought a huge honking boat with the proceeds. 

For me, we didn't become sailboat owners until we became empty nesters and didn't have the financial pressures of raising kids or helping with university tuition. My kids enjoy the boat and may get into it some day, but their priorities are now on their careers and starting families etc.


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## Greatlakes47

I can't speak for other young people. However I am 25, my father one of those young guys who sailed back in the day and introduced me to sailing when I was a really young boy. He had to stop sailing when I was around 7. Later on when I was about 20 I had an unexplained urge to sail an I did whatever it took to buy my first boat. 

Any of my friends who I have taken out sailing have absolutely loved it! So I think the main issue is so many young persons these days just don't know anything about sailing or that sailing is a live and very active sport. Unless you know someone who sails then you won't consider sailing as something you can practically take part in. I think the schools and communities need to put more effort in opening doors to sailing for young students. Otherwise it will just be looked as something old people with lots of money does!

Shane


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## Greatlakes47

After a few previous posts, I have noticed people are blaming the lack of young people in sailing due to the economy and the difficulty of finding a job along with coping with student debt. At least from what I see here in Toronto there are 3 issues with the younger generation. 

1. Laziness. I know for a fact my parents and everyone here work(ed) a whole lot harder then the majority of my peers

2. Poor choices. Students these days need to be more realistic when it comes the schooling they choose. They blow 30 grand in tuition on garbage courses that there are no jobs in, even in the best of economies! Not everyone can be artists and philosophers!

3. Priorities and money management. Going to the bar and clubs is more important than paying off credit cards and student debt. And playing video games than getting off their butts and finding a job, any job, even if it means a job that you didn't go to school for (see point 2)!!


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## Sal Paradise

So you generally agree but you want to be judgemental about it too. 

Thanks.


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## Greatlakes47

I'm very judgmental


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## Philzy3985

I'm 27 and started sailing while have been sailing my own-purchased boats since I was 20. I think that the interest in sailing comes in generational waves, like a kid or teenager who gets enrolled in a club or team, then quits to focus on other things (job, college, early 20's social life) and then the flame comes back when they can afford it again, both money and time.

The only thing that stops people around this age is the responsibility requirements. To buy something high-ticket like this, to maintain it, to store it on land or in water, and to time-manage a personal life that allows days or afternoons of freedom to get the pay-out of sailing. It's a balance, and realistically not everyone from 18-30 (generally) is responsible enough.


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## PCP

nodders said:


> Our club did a members survey recently and, out of 237 responses, 0 were between the ages of 20-29, 3 were 30-39, 37 were 40-49. The vast majority were between 50 - 70 with 37 older than 70!
> 
> ....
> For me, we didn't become sailboat owners until we became empty nesters and didn't have the financial pressures of raising kids or helping with university tuition. My kids enjoy the boat and may get into it some day, but their priorities are now on their careers and starting families etc.


That's why cruisers tend to be older. It is needed time for cruising and lot's of money for the boat and lifestyle, at least for many.

If you go to a charter company and ask about the average age I am pretty sure that it is much lower, even if not for teenagers: Charter a boat is also expensive.

I really don't understand the title of this thread. probably it is an American thing. around here the problem is TOO MANY PEOPLE CRUISING. In many nice places It is hard to find a place to anchor, marinas are crowded and take advantage to charge huge prices.

This year in Italy I had no other option then to paid 35 euros for a buoy and I read that another guy had paid 70 euros for one on another Island ( any boat bigger than 10m). There are some nice places that I will never visit with my boat because it is too deep to anchor and the marina charges (in medium season) 200 euros for a 41ft boat

Regards

Paulo


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## Jhiggy

I can tell you my take on it. I'm a 29 year old male for reference. I just purchased my first sailboat about 3 months ago. Honestly I was just never exposed to it. My parents never sailed, my grandparents never sailed, why would I sail? My parents skied and spent lots of time camping so those are things that I got into. Not only that but I was under the impression that sailing was super expensive. Even little boats I assumed cost 10s of thousands of dollars. My wife and I both have significant college debt so I just thought we couldn't afford a boat. Then I found a boat design called pdracer. Literally a plywood boat that should cost 500-1000 dollars to build. After that I started researching and found that decent boats could be found in that price range almost ready to sail. 

So to sum it up, High student loan debt + not being exposed to sailing made me believe that I couldn't do it. Not only that but it is intimidating when you don't have help. I believe you all are trying to make it more complicated than it really is.


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## caberg

nodders said:


> Our club did a members survey recently and, out of 237 responses, 0 were between the ages of 20-29, 3 were 30-39, 37 were 40-49. The vast majority were between 50 - 70 with 37 older than 70!


There's quite a few young people in my area who own boats and sail on a regular basis (not "cruisers"), but no one I know under the age of maybe 50 belongs to a yacht club.


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## KarlP

In my area there is an 5-15 year waiting list to join a salt water yacht club. The better clubs for young sailors (more frequent group sailing, better sailing facilities, less high cost amenities like pools/monthly bar minimums) are the longer waits. Perhaps the more uncertainty in life when starting out and the length of the wait list are factors?


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## ragzamoto

Interesting thread, I think that this generation will not sail like the baby boomer generation . It is a generation of plug and play. Chartering in destinations will continue but boat ownership and all the maintanance will be avoided.... Cant say I blame them . The days of familys working on the boat in spring getting it ready. Or cruising long distances in frail boats is going the way of he square rigger it will be a few romantic souls and the rest will jet to the Caribbean jump on a charter do the islands get the tee shirt ,the tan and enjoy the best parts. Im jealous kidding there is nothing so good as getting there on your own but some will not get that.


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## ChristinaM

The few younger sailors that I know (myself included) have pretty flexible work arrangements. I don't know that I could do a normal 9-5 job with a typical commute then pack everything up to go sailing every weekends & provision & keep the boat clean & do laundry at home & ...

I work from home and so does the other young couple on my dock. The sailing couples that are young and both work or have small kids have trailer sailors and talk about "someday" having a 25-30 footer. If we weren't planning some extended cruising we'd still probably be sailing Hobies and saying we'll get a cruising boat when we're tired of getting soaked. Last time I ran the numbers, 3 weeks of chartering was cheaper than ownership.

I wouldn't be surprised if the demographics in marinas & yacht clubs haven't changed that much over the last 20 years. Were the boomers really buying cruising boats in their early 30s?


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## Sal Paradise

Hey - could it be a combination of all these things? Yes it could!!!


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## Sublime

ChristinaM said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the demographics in marinas & yacht clubs haven't changed that much over the last 20 years. Were the boomers really buying cruising boats in their early 30s?


Also consider that to get a decent job...well, a job that would pay the equivalent to one that a high school grad could get 20-30 years ago, requires a college degree. State school tuition can run up towards 45K for a degree. 

20 years ago, not as many people in their early 30's started their lives with 40-50K of school debt.


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## Group9

Sublime said:


> Also consider that to get a decent job...well, a job that would pay the equivalent to one that a high school grad could get 20-30 years ago, requires a college degree. State school tuition can run up towards 45K for a degree.
> 
> 20 years ago, not as many people in their early 30's started their lives with 40-50K of school debt.


That is a killer to new grads these days. I got out of undergraduate school with only 2500 in student loans and only added another 10,000 going to law school. It didn't take me that long to pay it off.

But, starting salaries haven't increased at anywhere near the rate tuition prices have. I often wonder how many of these kids who go to college, would be much better off, to learn a skill or trade, and take that same amount of tuition money, and use it to start a small business.

Undoubtedly, a lot of them would be better off doing that.


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## scottie55

No young people are sailing because its a expensive hobby.


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## captain jack

RichH said:


> Totally agree with that. If you look at any Sail Mag. it appears that 'starter' boats are 40ft. and costing a minor fortune.
> 
> The same plunge in youth participation happened in skiing. A full 'outfit' would cost well over $2000 for top quality stuff. And then, SnoBoarding arrived, was 1/5 -1/10th the price for the equipment and the dying 'snowsports' industry made a dramatic comeback ... until the price of a lift ticket met the resurgent enthusiasm and the snowsports industry is going through another decline simply because its too damn expensive for 'young-uns' to afford.
> 
> So who makes a reasonably priced modest entry level sailboat? ... virtually no one, simply because the ROI for the manufacturers is too slim. Even a 14ft. rowing dink far exceeds the cost of my first reasonably equipped '30 footer' of 40 years ago.


personally, I think that's a huge part of it. $5000 for a small dinghy is a big hurtle for a lot of people. and, like everyone says, cruising boats, like houses, have gotten bigger and bigger with a matching growth in price. the 50s was the time of the fiberglass boat, which took sailing out of the realm of the rich and affluent and put it in the realm of the average guy. now, sailing is back in the hands of the well to do, at least on the surface. I think that's a big part but I think there are other elements to the issue.

technology is another big one. we have become a technology society. everything is technology, I-phones, I-pads, lap tops, video games....all of it indoors and inactive. sailboats aren't about modern technology. they are sophisticated ancient technology. it's not as glamorous and flash like the latest version of Assassin's creed. that's a big thing. if you want to attract a younger crowd, you need to have computer chips involved. which leads to the next point.

the new generations aren't outdoorsy, physical people. everything they have always done has been passive entertainment. TV, video games, the internet, facebook, tweeter; all of these things are inactive entertainment. the young people of today just don't DO things. it's all passive and inactive. sailing is an outdoor, unplugged, active thing. that's a huge culture difference. as kids, we all went outside to play we were active all the time.

another thing is the entertainment industry. when I was a kid ( i'm only 40 ), there were plenty of swashbuckler movies on TV. Erol Flynn and other dashing heroes fighting with swords and cannons on the sailing ships of the golden age of sail. they just don't make many movies about that, now, except Pirates of the Caribbean. So, in a decade, we have three movies featuring the excitement of the sailor's world. before that, I can only think of Dead Calm, as far as movies featuring sailboats. before that? it was maybe the 70s since any movies featuring sailing were made and got wide public attention. so, while sailing was on our minds as children, and we were pirate captains fighting with swords made of sticks and ships that were the pick nick table in the back yard, it's not on the minds of the modern generation.

but I don't think all is lost. it's like choppers and cruising motorcycles. they became the toys of rich yuppies and those of us who were real bikers, and a part of the blue collar world, could barely afford parts and bikes. plus, the yuppies wanted rolling antiques, and HD has been giving them that. the kids want fast, exciting, and affordable. 20,000 dollars for a relatively slow, high maintenance isn't really attractive to today's kids. but...

there is a growing underground chopper movement with younger generations. it's not big but it's growing. they are building cutting edge, old school choppers and they are doing it with any bikes they can get, not just high dollar HDs. before that, it looked as if the "biker' culture would die with us 'old' folks, leaving only race bikes on the roads. but the tide is changing.

if you go on youtube, you will see that a growing number of younger people are sick of the materialistic rat race. they are going simpler and less materialistic. building relatively tiny houses out of adobe or what construction materials they can get from construction site dumpsters ( incredible waste in the construction field ). they are also trying out the live aboard lifestyle. a cruising sailboat is like a tiny house that floats. you have no choice but simplify your life.

like with the young trend in the biker world, these kids are going 'old school' and they are doing it on older, smaller boats. like with the motorcycle world, the trend is still small but it's growing. I agree with one poster. as costs go up, free locomotion is going to get more attractive. that's one thing about sailing that's pretty cool. I can put my boat on the water, sail for an entire day, and it costs me nothing more than the price of gas to drive to the water. that's a big bang for your buck.

anyhow, I don't think all is lost, just yet. I think there is a new kind of young people that will take up the reins when we kick off.


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## captain jack

PCP said:


> I really don't understand the title of this thread. probably it is an American thing. around here the problem is TOO MANY PEOPLE CRUISING. In many nice places It is hard to find a place to anchor, marinas are crowded and take advantage to charge huge prices.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I am going to agree with this, despite the stats. up at lake Marburg, you see a lot of people from all ages sailing. a lot of the people sailing cruising boats are between the early twenties and their thirties. and, I don't know the ages of the average sailor but the marinas on the Chesapeake are bristling with masts, like a porcupine.

it's far from a dying lifestyle. but numbers don't lie, although they can be misinterpreted, so it may be that there is a reduction in younger sailors.


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## duchess of montrose

I am young. I sail in fact i cruise. Learned sailing dinghies when i was really young sold everything and bought my boat, that being said I never go out my family has loaned me quite a bit of money and my only expenses are boat expenses and college, also i'm not doing college all at once which gives me the time to work and work on my boat on the semesters that I take off. i have found however that we are a dying breed. The funny thing is as a young sailor i think I actually use and want less technology on my boat than many of my middle aged counterparts do. I do not have or want radar, night vision scopes, satellite internet or phones, i have ais, a chartplotter and 2 vhf radios, one dsc one not oh and an electric autopilot for the great lakes. i have found that it is very ard for me to find people to sail with me and a lot of the people i have sailed with that are my age have been almost astounded with how simple my boat was, as they were expecting electric toilets water heaters, lavish luxury and I have a simple 30 foot sloop from the 70's with a manual head, brass galley hand pumps, etc. i think the desire to discover to cultivate one's own comprehension of the great knowledge of the world is dying. I don't identify with many of my peers. I'm doing the college things slowly because I have to but i am not content just learning these lists of info so I can get a god paying job. I prefer to develop an accurate perception of reality by discovering. Sailing is one of the last great unknowns. Before I bought my sailboat, I had crewed on others but i had spent time hiking, biking and kayaking. I think all of that is dying out, long voyages just don't happen by young people in the same fashion anymore its awful. There has always been something to me thats enchanting enlightening and romantic about the great explorers, i was heavily influenced by Tania Aebi, Laura Dekker, Jessica Watson and most of all Jarle Andhoy and the crew of berserk. My biggest sailing goal is to go to antarctica not on my own boat of course I am not as insane as Jarle Andhoy. But young explorers still do exist.


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## barefootnavigator

Will you marry me?


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## duchess of montrose

Haha no but your welcome to crew on my boat anytime, I'm always trying to find crew, its hard finding people my age who like to sail in all conditions.


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## barefootnavigator

Awwww  Here in WA we have tones of young kids with boats, at 45 I'm the crusty old guy on the dock. This summer as I cruised I was impressed with how many young ones were out. I purchased my first boat at 18 was the youngest by a good 15 years now it seems here more and more every year we see younger people leaning the advantages of living and cruising on small boats  BTW if I ever make it that way I would love to cruise with you but alas I am headed to Argentina on my boat. This might be a good place to plug Lyle Hess


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## unimacs

I don't know. I've met some very adventurous and motivated young people. I suspect that for most of them sailing and especially cruising is just not on the radar.

In some respects sailing is probably a little like hunting. If you aren't exposed to it as a youngster, you're much less likely to pursue it as an adult.

Why aren't as many kids getting exposed to sailing today? I think there are lots of reasons including a lack of unstructured leisure time for both themselves and their parents. Further, while boats can be found for almost nothing, keeping them on the water is increasingly expensive (though I'm sure there are exceptions). 

If you don't grow up close to a large body of water then you're probably not going to spend much of your youth sailing, and affordable land close to large bodies of water is hard to come by.
For kids near where I live, there are youth sailing classes but these are on small lakes that severely limit power boat access.

The lake on which grew up is overrun with power boats and personal watercraft, but no sailing school and few sailors. It's a shame. There was an active yacht club and weekly races of several different classes when I was young. Now, there's nothing.


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## casioqv

Having been paying and working my way through college, I think the 'college debt' thing is a pretty lame excuse for not sailing.

In the first few years of college I also built up a lot of debt, until I learned tricks for living frugally and learned that research labs on campus have plenty of money to hire students who work hard. 

Living frugally while working in on campus labs, I paid off all of my debt and now invest most of my tiny student worker income. Eventually I bought a Catalina 22 for $800 which I restored and outfitted as a cruising boat, and have been doing week long cruises several times per year while attending school full time.


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## captain jack

duchess, you sound like me. at 42 I am not a 'young' man, by most standards, although no one guesses me to be more than 34. but I started sailing when I was 24. I don't do motors on sailboats. I have never even used one. i'm a sailor. if I can't sail to and from a dock or set and leave anchor, by sail alone, I have no right to call myself a sailor. I am just now checking into a used electric outboard, in case of emergency on the bay.

none of my friends ever sailed and most everyone I have met on the water is a generation older than me, including the newbies. I have, recently met some guys in their 20s. they were just beginning to sail and I helped them get their boat back on their trailer. I never meet women my own age or younger, that sail...unfortunately.lol

I also am an anti-tech rebel. simple and old fashioned is better. it's cleaner and more pure. it's free of the taint of the modern tech rat race we have made for ourselves. that's how sailing should be: free. to a degree, technology is a trap. it ensnares us and keeps us dependent on the system. when I drive to a strange place, I don't use GPS. I get out a map. most people you meet can't even use a map.

I also find many of the older 'sailors' I meet, who haven't been sailing since childhood, are not really that knowledgeable about actually sailing. it's funny watching them trying to sail away from the dock and funnier watching them try to return. many don't bother. they motor out before raising their sails and they strike sail a ways from the dock and motor back. 

if I am in my dinghy, which I made a sprit sail for, no one even has any idea what type of sail it is. I had one guy guess it was a lateen (?) and one guy tell me he liked my gaff rig. a lot of them just ask what type of sail it is and had never heard of a sprit sail, when I tell them. during the golden age of sail, sprit sails were very popular and are one of the oldest types of sail but all they know is Bermuda rigs. 

a lot of them over trim, too, wasting a lot of the wind's force on heeling. they say they do it because it feels like they are getting more force on the sails. they are surprised when I suggest they ease the sails til they luff and then sheet them in just enough to stop them from luffing.

they don't seem to be prepared, either. they usually don't carry any extra rope, for emergency use, and can't seem to handle an emergency on the water. for instance, this older guy was taking his young grand kids out for a sail in a 16' boat. he had no motor. I was sailing my dinghy. it was a bit heavy, that day. 15 kts or so, plus gusts. 

I saw their main come down on top of them, suddenly. they appeared to be struggling so I sailed over to them. his halyard shackle had come apart. he had no motor. no oars. not even a paddle. with little kids in the boat! he also had no rope or a knife to cut rope with. 

I sacrificed a bit of my stern line and, while sailing around in tight circles, instructed him to strike his jib. I told him to tie a roband through the cringle at the main sail's head. then, I told him to hook the jib halyard to the forward side of the roband and hoist the main with that. he couldn't sail up wind on jib alone. too much lee helm. he had been trying. anyhow, he was able to sail back to the dock that way. I followed him back, to make sure he'd be ok. 

he and his wife thanked me profusely and half jokingly suggested they should get my number so they could make sure I was sailing when he went out, in the future, in case he had another emergency. the funny thing is, they used to own a 40' sloop, on the bay. really nice people but he was still totally unprepared and had no idea how to go about saving himself and his grand kids. thankfully I was sailing that day. 

I think it's a generational thing. many of the baby boomers that sail are like the ones that ride motorcycles ( which I also do ). they aren't serious about it ( not hard core, as i'd usually say ). it's a hobby that money affords them. as far as the ones that own motorcycles go, they ride a little...never in bad weather...and then they sit around drinking and trying to convince the other boomers on bikes just how hard core they are, even referring to themselves as biker trash...with their big mc mansions and expensive cars. it's a game to them. i'm not saying all older ( baby boomer age )sailors are that way, of course, but I have observed that tendency a lot.



those of us who grew up as bikers actually ride. we can generally figure a way to jury rig our bikes and limp home, if a cable breaks or something, and we are not afraid to get wet or cold. there are less bikers in the younger generations, most of those generations prefer fast crotch rockets, but the ones that are starting to ride cruisers and choppers are more hardcore, like my father's generation and myself. 

perhaps there is a similar trend with sailing. 

if you haven't already, you should go on youtube and search for 'hold fast'. I discovered it by accident late one night. it's cool.

I can identify with those people, although I spent most of my life fighting my own nature and trying to be 'responsible' and work towards the type of life I was told I should aim for. so I haven't gotten a chance to do something like they did, yet. I have never succeeded in seeking those accepted goals, very well, though.. I just don't care that much about material crap. it's all about the experience of life, to me; the adventure. now, I find myself wondering what I have been doing trying to achieve someone else's life goals and i'm having a shift in my way of life. I am not fighting my own nature that much, an more. it never did me much good anyhow. I've always done things like ride my chopper through rain, snow, cold, and twice through flash floods ( I went 7 years without even owning a car and I don't live in California or florida, either )or sailing a 9' dinghy in 20 kt gusts, in the dead of winter, when I had to shovel snow off of the dock before setting sail (and I can't swim). I never fit into that cookie cutter society, usually being the crazy man amongst my friends and the other people I encounter. i'm the guy who never has the newest electric gadgets. i didn't get a cell phone til about 4 years ago. i'm the guy with the sailing dinghy in the back of his beat up old truck so I can sail any time I can get a free moment. i'm just not the guy with a house, two cars in the garage, a big screen TV to watch the game on ( I don't care about sports. too many things to actually do. life is not a spectator sport ) and 2.5 kids in after school activities. but I digress...


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## unimacs

Though not a story about sailing per se (and not at all about cruising), there was an article about the lake I grew up on in the local paper yesterday. A marina wanted to double the number of slips they had and ran into a firestorm of complaints from lake property owners.

The property owners complain that there are already too many boats on the lake. It was one of the first lakes in the area to become infested with zebra muscles (an invasive species). They also say that non-resident boaters ignore no-wake zones which is dangerous, causes property damage, further erosion, and leads to diminished water quality.

I agree that the boat traffic is crazy (I wouldn't even attempt to sail there on the 4th of July for example) but it is sort of the pot calling the kettle black. A homeowner can legally have up to 6 slips on their property and many allow other people to keep boats on their property for money that's exchanged under the table. 

The reason I bring it up is that while we do have a lot of lakes, access to them in the metro area is becoming constrained and expensive. Though somewhat tempered by the real-estate crash a few years ago, lake property is not attainable on a middle class income without some help.

The combination of expensive lake property, crowded boat launches, and only a small number of slips available, means sailing isn't really going to thrive there and it hasn't.

There is something else going on though because sailing has declined dramatically there even among the people for whom it would be convenient and affordable, - the property owners.


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## captain jack

when talking about lake sailing, a decline in sailing might coincide with an increase of power boats, fishing, and possibly see doo's ( if allowed ). as the complaint noted, power boaters ignore no wake zones, tend to ignore right of way, and tend to be rude as a general rule. by rude, I mean swamping smaller craft as they go by. that doesn't effect cruisers, but it can effect smaller boats. on lake Marburg, I have found that to be the case. it makes sailing a small boat frustrating, at times, even dangerous. it can really tick you off. the stress of dealing with buttholes is one thing I sail to escape. perhaps other people felt the same way and stopped sailing at those lakes because of it. it never stopped me but most leisure time sailors aren't all that dedicated. if a hobby stops providing the benefits which drew a person to it, in the first place, they tend to stop participating in that hobby.

while cruising is the topic of the thread, I think that your point is very relevant. for many people, the investment of money and effort to own a cruising sailboat are too much. for them, dinghies and daysailers are the only avenue for sailing. today's daysailer can be tomorrow's cruiser, but not if they abandon sailing before they reach that stage.


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## captain jack

one point to add to what I previously posted about our modern pop culture not introducing sailboats to kids is that, when I was a little boy, there were a lot of plastic toy boats. outside of pirates of the Caribbean toys, you just don't see toy sailboats for little kids, in the stores. it's just not in the public eye for future generations.

one other thing about the baby boom generation sailing, the introduction of relatively inexpensive fiberglass boats in the 50s took sailing out of the realm of the rich and put it in the realm of everyday people. fiberglass boats just aren't that cheap, anymore. the new fiberglass boats, instead of being aimed at the middle class, are now aimed at those with money. yes, you can find reasonable used boats but many average people who could afford them don't have the skills, time, or inclination to fix up an older boat. for them, they want a buy it today/ sail it today sort of hobby. 

access to learning may be an issue, too. people are lazy. they don't want to invest time in stuff. we live in an immediate gratification society. as evidence I present to the following tale.

I was out sailing my dinghy, earlier in the summer. as I sailed, I watched this boat doing some odd things. it was about 24 foot or so. kind of a weekend cruiser. this was on the lake. I usually leave the sailor's cove and head upwind, towards the dam. that way, if the wind dies down low, I can sail back downwind to the dock, instead of beating through light airs.

in the morning, that day, the wind was variable and I realized I was doing things the hard way, so I turned her about and sailed down, heading for the other end of the lake. I saw this boat sailing out of the cove and head down, too. they were ahead of me, as I had sailed up first, before heading down. they reached their way out of the cove but, when they turned down, they never eased the main. they kept it sheeted in like they were beating. I thought that odd, but I have noticed that people aren't very glad to get pointers, no matter how badly they are screwing up. so, I left it alone and minded my business.

by the time I had closed the distance to about 10 yards, the wind had arrived so I turned about and headed back upwind. they did too. now, the size of their boat should have meant they passed me by easily. however, it took them awhile to come abreast of me. I waved and kept sailing. they didn't mind the trim of the jib and it luffed often, which slowed them up. there is an island on the lake, in line with the sailor's cove. it screws up the wind around it, for some distance, regardless of wind direction. so, as I approached it, I tacked over, sailed past it's wind shadow, and tacked back to my original course.

they just kept sailing right into the wind shadow, like they didn't realize that's what was happening. well, after a while of watching them sail in such an odd fashion, during a time while they were running with the main sheeted in for beating, I decided I watched them struggling enough ( it was obvious that they were ) and I sailed down to where they were, easily overtaking them.

I said hi and asked how they were doing. they replied that they weren't doing good. I took that as my cure and said hat I noticed that and inquired as to how long they had been sailing. they had bought the boat 3 months ago and had been trying to figure out how to sail by watching youtube videos. now, I don't think that is a bad way to learn sailing. I taught myself by reading lots of books and applying what I read. my first time out on my dinghy, I did just fine. but not everyone can learn without a teacher and it didn't seem to help them. so, I told them i'd help them out and said they needed to ease the main. I got them sailing ok and stuck with them. a guy in a cruiser sailed up to us. he and I had been talking while we sailed near each other, previously. he saw what I was about and also gave them pointers.

they suffered a mild accidental jibe because they weren't mindful of the tiller, once. I kept them from having another immediate accidental jibe. new sailor's tend to respond to an accidental jibe by turning the tiller to where it should have been before the jibe, causing another jibe, I notice. anyhow, they were heading back to the dock, reaching by that time. I had kept telling them how to sail, the whole time.

the wind had dropped and my boat sails very well in light airs. so, I was having no trouble keeping up. they began pulling down the jib and I was sailing in circles around them, talking to them, as they did. I offered to teach them how to sail. no charge. i'm on the water every weekend, anyway, and I hadn't started to sail in the bay, yet. I gave them my phone number and email. told them my schedule was flexible and the next time they decided to take it out, i'd be glad to show them how to sail it. 

I never heard from them and never saw them on the lake again. months went by. if they were still trying to sail that boat, I should have seen them up there. there's no other lake near there for them to sail on.

I figure they got frustrated and gave up. it's a shame. I was more than willing to invest the time to teach them.


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## unimacs

I think that is a big part of it. Power boats, personal water craft, canoes, kayaks, paddle boards, etc. all are much easier to learn how to use.

It could be laziness. It could be just a general lack of leisure time, or lack of information on available learning resources. There happens to be a few different options for learning how to sail not far from where I live, - both for kids and adults but I was completely unaware of them until a few years ago. It seems to me I used to see TV commercials from marine stores advertising sailboats when I was little, but no more. I'm pretty sure you
could watch the America's cup races on regular TV and local parks used to rent out sailboats but that's not the case anymore either.

Sailing became more of a mainstream activity back in the 70's but it's not any longer.


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## captain jack

yeah. I think that's the case. a guy I know, who doesn't sail was discussing the recent race with me. he knows I sail and was asking how they could consider the hydrofoil boats to be boats. lol. but I do think it's no longer mainstream. big, fast, expensive power boats are made to look cool, in movies and pop culture; not sailboats.

clubs, sailboat manufacturers, and sailing schools ought to start hosting open houses. free sailboat ride events. something to raise public awareness. that might be one place to start.


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## hannah2

Again I think the thread was about young people really cruising. I take cruising as leaving your home port and headed out across an ocean and coming back to your home country in a year or so. I'm an American who's home port is Hood River Oregon and at that very small marina two sailboats left to cross the Pacific this year, both boats I assume are in Mexico right now. Both those boats had young couples on board. I see this everywhere we sail, not only in Europe but in the states as well. We are in the Canaries awaiting our passage to the Cape Verde Islands then to the Carib. We are on pontoon J of the marina Puerto Calero and there are 7 other boats on the pontoon getting ready to cross. Five of those boats have young sailors, we see this everywhere we go. I had a young couple maybe 22 or 23 aboard today to see our new boat. He is from Bermuda and she is from Glasgow they are headed to his home port after a couple years sailing. Their boat is not fancy but well taken care of. That is the way of the young sailors we see, inexpensive boats well taken care of. 

It is foolish of me to even write about this subject because I can see most of the complainers here just don't get it and never will. Those who get it don't post on sites like this much because they are out having the time of their life while the rest of you ***** about every excuse in the world. I guess that's why the 1 % rule comes in to play with real cruising just like it did 40 years ago. You really want to do it and you have to sacrifice everything in your life and focus on going cruising, you have to be narrow sighted. 

Anyway we are all working hard on our boats most days getting ready for the crossing, some days we take a day off from work and hitch around the island, drinking good cheap white wine, 80 cents a bottle and eating great sea food. In the evenings after five we hangout with other cruisers of all ages and drink some more while most of you just have wet dreams about cruising and forever nothing more. But I know maybe one of you will figure it out and screw all the crap you have brought upon yourself and come see what this life is all about. The oceans are big places and there is room for one or two % more.

Cheers


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## unimacs

captain jack said:


> yeah. I think that's the case. a guy I know, who doesn't sail was discussing the recent race with me. he knows I sail and was asking how they could consider the hydrofoil boats to be boats. lol. but I do think it's no longer mainstream. big, fast, expensive power boats are made to look cool, in movies and pop culture; not sailboats.
> 
> clubs, sailboat manufacturers, and sailing schools ought to start hosting open houses. free sailboat ride events. something to raise public awareness. that might be one place to start.


That would be a good idea. I learned how to sail when I was little and I never thought of it as being that complicated. I like our sailing club but there's a fairly involved training process you have to go through before you can take the boats out on your own. Just to be clear, we're talking about dinghies and not 40 foot yachts.

I get it. They want to protect the members and the boats but at the same time it leaves people with the impression that sailing is hard. Some people leave the club having never "skippered out". Others that do skipper out leave because they are expected to spend two club sailing days a month training new members.

They have no problems attracting new members so I don't think it's seen as a major obstacle to the survival of the club but that might not be the case if there were competing clubs that required less commitment.


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## unimacs

hannah2 said:


> Again I think the thread was about young people really cruising. I take cruising as leaving your home port and headed out across an ocean and coming back to your home country in a year or so. I'm an American who's home port is Hood River Oregon and at that very small marina two sailboats left to cross the Pacific this year, both boats I assume are in Mexico right now. Both those boats had young couples on board. I see this everywhere we sail, not only in Europe but in the states as well. We are in the Canaries awaiting our passage to the Cape Verde Islands then to the Carib. We are on pontoon J of the marina Puerto Calero and there are 7 other boats on the pontoon getting ready to cross. Five of those boats have young sailors, we see this everywhere we go. I had a young couple maybe 22 or 23 aboard today to see our new boat. He is from Bermuda and she is from Glasgow they are headed to his home port after a couple years sailing. Their boat is not fancy but well taken care of. That is the way of the young sailors we see, inexpensive boats well taken care of.
> 
> It is foolish of me to even write about this subject because I can see most of the complainers here just don't get it and never will. Those who get it don't post on sites like this much because they are out having the time of their life while the rest of you ***** about every excuse in the world. I guess that's why the 1 % rule comes in to play with real cruising just like it did 40 years ago. You really want to do it and you have to sacrifice everything in your life and focus on going cruising, you have to be narrow sighted.
> 
> Anyway we are all working hard on our boats most days getting ready for the crossing, some days we take a day off from work and hitch around the island, drinking good cheap white wine, 80 cents a bottle and eating great sea food. In the evenings after five we hangout with other cruisers of all ages and drink some more while most of you just have wet dreams about cruising and forever nothing more. But I know maybe one of you will figure it out and screw all the crap you have brought upon yourself and come see what this life is all about. The oceans are big places and there is room for one or two % more.
> 
> Cheers


I realize that the thread is about cruising but to me some of the same reasons you'll see fewer young people cruising apply to sailing in general. Personally, I'm not really bitching. I've only been participating in this forum a short while and it's been eye opening. I've come to the realization that cruising is really something I could do if I wanted to and I can see a path to that end. But long passages are something that's not really on my radar at this time and maybe never will be.

Anyway, the financial realities are different than they were 30 or 40 years ago. One can complain about that (not that it does any good). But there is more to it. I think it's also about choices and sailing is just not as popular a choice as it was decades ago, - and not just because of the expenses.


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## aparksat

The economy and death of the middle class in short


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## captain jack

unimacs said:


> That would be a good idea. I learned how to sail when I was little and I never thought of it as being that complicated. I like our sailing club but there's a fairly involved training process you have to go through before you can take the boats out on your own. Just to be clear, we're talking about dinghies and not 40 foot yachts.
> 
> I get it. They want to protect the members and the boats but at the same time it leaves people with the impression that sailing is hard. Some people leave the club having never "skippered out". Others that do skipper out leave because they are expected to spend two club sailing days a month training new members.
> 
> They have no problems attracting new members so I don't think it's seen as a major obstacle to the survival of the club but that might not be the case if there were competing clubs that required less commitment.


yeah. that's the thing. sailing is an art. if you want to be a good sailor and be able to handle what may come your way, you need to learn everything you can. however, the physical basics of sailing are pretty simple; you pull this rope, you put your body weight here, you move the tiller there. the more difficult you make things appear, the less people will be tempted to try it. it's a reality. some people shouldn't sail, just like some people shouldn't ride motorcycles. but there are tons of people just looking for something to add adventure and depth to their lives; people who might find that sailing was what they were after, if they ever tried it. but if it's not on the radar, they might never try it.

the reason I say manufacturers, and those kinds of groups, should do something to attract new sailors is that, while it's a lifestyle to us, it's an industry to them. without people who sail, no one will buy their boats or utilize their services. it would be a financial investment for anyone in the sailboat industry to ensure there was a future for that industry.


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## captain jack

hannah2 said:


> Again I think the thread was about young people really cruising. I take cruising as leaving your home port and headed out across an ocean and coming back to your home country in a year or so. I'm an American who's home port is Hood River Oregon and at that very small marina two sailboats left to cross the Pacific this year, both boats I assume are in Mexico right now. Both those boats had young couples on board. I see this everywhere we sail, not only in Europe but in the states as well. We are in the Canaries awaiting our passage to the Cape Verde Islands then to the Carib. We are on pontoon J of the marina Puerto Calero and there are 7 other boats on the pontoon getting ready to cross. Five of those boats have young sailors, we see this everywhere we go. I had a young couple maybe 22 or 23 aboard today to see our new boat. He is from Bermuda and she is from Glasgow they are headed to his home port after a couple years sailing. Their boat is not fancy but well taken care of. That is the way of the young sailors we see, inexpensive boats well taken care of.
> 
> It is foolish of me to even write about this subject because I can see most of the complainers here just don't get it and never will. Those who get it don't post on sites like this much because they are out having the time of their life while the rest of you ***** about every excuse in the world. I guess that's why the 1 % rule comes in to play with real cruising just like it did 40 years ago. You really want to do it and you have to sacrifice everything in your life and focus on going cruising, you have to be narrow sighted.
> 
> Anyway we are all working hard on our boats most days getting ready for the crossing, some days we take a day off from work and hitch around the island, drinking good cheap white wine, 80 cents a bottle and eating great sea food. In the evenings after five we hangout with other cruisers of all ages and drink some more while most of you just have wet dreams about cruising and forever nothing more. But I know maybe one of you will figure it out and screw all the crap you have brought upon yourself and come see what this life is all about. The oceans are big places and there is room for one or two % more.
> 
> Cheers


ok. I love your post but I think there are some realities you just haven't added in. it's fine and dandy to talk about just cashing in your chips and setting off for a distant shore, but there are realities of life to consider. one of those is money.

it costs money to buy and outfit a boat for a trip like that. it takes money to keep yourself going along the way. you have to be assured that, if you manage to sock away that kind of cash and then quit your job for the adventure of a lifetime, you will be able to survive when you return. will you be able to find another job that will pay your bills? in the economic nightmare the progressive government has created, that's a light question.

and, looking at unemployment and under employment, in the country, how easy is it for people, especially younger people, to come up with the cash to fund such a venture? you are talking a good bit of money, even if you go on a shoestring.

but there is more to consider. what about people's responsibilities? many people have responsibilities they can't set aside. I am a good example ( of both points, actually ). i'd love to do some blue water sailing and explore. but, even if I could come up with enough funds and be sure of a means to survive when I returned, I couldn't do it because there would be on one to look after my mother. she's alone, since my father was killed, and relies on me a lot. if I just said screw it and set sail for a year or even a few months, there would be no one to look after her.

so, while I love the spirit of your post and I think it's great that you are living the dream, I don't think it's fair of you to be so negative towards those who aren't ale to do that.

I think that, in general, older people have a better chance of living that dream. as long as they did well financially, they have a sturdy financial foundation. once their kids leave home, they have no one that has any call o lean on them. they did all the crap you are supposed to do, in life, and are free to rewrite their lives.

there is an older guy, who has a beautiful vessel, that does videos of his travels, on youtube. he met a woman, along the way, and they live the life. but, he's in his 50s and what's to stop him, if he has the money?


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## captain jack

to address the money issue, there is a thread, over in the cruising/live aboard forum, about earning money as you cruise. and I have also watched informative videos about the cruising life, on youtube, done by people that live the life. there is one young couple, specifically, that tries to educate people about the lifestyle and are very encouraging towards people interested in it. but, the idea of scraping up for a cheap boat, leaving with the clothes on your back and very little money, and being able to work as you voyage is really just a fantasy. I have read a number of stories about people who did it, in the 'old days', but times have changed. you can't realistically expect to earn a living with odd jobs as you sail port to port, especially outside of the USA. at least, that is the consensus from those who have the experience.

you pretty much have to have the money, have a job that allows you to work from your lap top and pays really good, or something similar. that's just not a situation that you will find a lot of young people in.


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## Pegu club

The Admiral and I met a young guy at our marina who appeared to be twenty-seven ish, he had the look of a young man who just recently left selective service. He had Virginia plates on his truck. He had a 30ft nonsuch that was in wonderful condition, he said he purchased his boat at the beginning of the year, said he was selling his 20ish foot trailer sailer boat in the spring. So it seems that adventure and wanderlust is not dead in the young peoples world, and Me and the Admiral are both very happy to see this first hand. So the Duchess of Montrose is not alone


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## hannah2

captain jack said:


> ok. I love your post but I think there are some realities you just haven't added in. it's fine and dandy to talk about just cashing in your chips and setting off for a distant shore, but there are realities of life to consider. one of those is money.
> 
> it costs money to buy and outfit a boat for a trip like that. it takes money to keep yourself going along the way. you have to be assured that, if you manage to sock away that kind of cash and then quit your job for the adventure of a lifetime, you will be able to survive when you return. will you be able to find another job that will pay your bills? in the economic nightmare the progressive government has created, that's a light question.
> 
> and, looking at unemployment and under employment, in the country, how easy is it for people, especially younger people, to come up with the cash to fund such a venture? you are talking a good bit of money, even if you go on a shoestring.
> 
> but there is more to consider. what about people's responsibilities? many people have responsibilities they can't set aside. I am a good example ( of both points, actually ). i'd love to do some blue water sailing and explore. but, even if I could come up with enough funds and be sure of a means to survive when I returned, I couldn't do it because there would be on one to look after my mother. she's alone, since my father was killed, and relies on me a lot. if I just said screw it and set sail for a year or even a few months, there would be no one to look after her.
> 
> so, while I love the spirit of your post and I think it's great that you are living the dream, I don't think it's fair of you to be so negative towards those who aren't ale to do that.
> 
> I think that, in general, older people have a better chance of living that dream. as long as they did well financially, they have a sturdy financial foundation. once their kids leave home, they have no one that has any call o lean on them. they did all the crap you are supposed to do, in life, and are free to rewrite their lives.
> 
> there is an older guy, who has a beautiful vessel, that does videos of his travels, on youtube. he met a woman, along the way, and they live the life. but, he's in his 50s and what's to stop him, if he has the money?


Capt Jack, I'm really not trying to be negative here But I'm saying is if you whine about the problems and distractions of life and don't find a solution so you can go cruising then you are not the one % of sailors that do find solutions and go crusing.


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## Pegu club

hannah2 said:


> Capt Jack, I'm really not trying to be negative here But I'm saying is if you whine about the problems and distractions of life and don't find a solution so you can go cruising then you are not the one % of sailors that do find solutions and go crusing.


So in your opinion its only "cruising" if you live aboard and go out for months/years at a time... and living on a boat and "cruising" for a couple of weeks at a time and long weekends during the season is not cruising then, I see...


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## Sal Paradise

Hannah

Wine is 80 cents a bottle? no wonder you live large!! I'd never leave. Here one beer in a pub is $6, you need a $50k income for an apartment and an old car, lesss than that and you have to shack up with 5 room mates or freeze under a bridge, I just spent $800 on a tank of heating oil that will probably last 2 months and I am working to supply all 5 in my family with a roof, a bed, 3 meals and health insurance. 

Seriously it is all great to hear about all the youngins who get out there and live the dream. But doesn't it stand to reason that someone somehwere is paying the price of supporting them. Keeping the homestead , or the rest of the family whole, paying airfare back and being the mommy/.daddy bank when things go wrong. Nothing wrong with that either - I wish my wife and I had some support when we started out. Instead it was straight out to the hourly wage farm - and move lively! 

Very few, or almost no american kids are going to go cruising that without family or friends/ tribe - someone supporting them. There'd be no place to go home to, no one to call when you got sick ( WITH NO HEALTH INSURANCE!) hungry , your boat broke, or you just needed $$. Think about it. This is all over and above the cost of boat, equipment and daily expenses.


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## caberg

hannah2 said:


> In the evenings after five we hangout with other cruisers of all ages and drink some more while most of you just have wet dreams about cruising and forever nothing more. But I know maybe one of you will figure it out and screw all the crap you have brought upon yourself and come see what this life is all about.


One question. How much did that brand new (2013) Boreal 44 set you back? $750,000 or so?

Must be a nice view from up on top of that high horse. I don't think you have any clue what it is like for the vast majority of regular folks who must live within the confines of a paycheck.


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## captain jack

hannah2 said:


> Capt Jack, I'm really not trying to be negative here But I'm saying is if you whine about the problems and distractions of life and don't find a solution so you can go cruising then you are not the one % of sailors that do find solutions and go crusing.


I wasn't saying that I thought you were trying to be negative, per se. it's just that, in that post, you sound like me when i'm talking about the yuppie wanna be bikers with their credit card leathers and 500 mile a year tour bikes. and, I know how I feel about those people. lol. it's kind of the way I feel about people who only learn the very basics of how to sail and then rely on a motor anytime real skills are necessary. disdain, I believe, is the word I am looking for.

you were just stating a fact, as you point out. you were basically saying that only 1% of sailors actually rearrange their lives to go on ocean passages. but your words display disdain. and i'm not narcing on you if you do feel a bit of disdain for those who 'are full of whining excuses' as to why they can't go to sea. the Gods know I have my share of disdain for people I don't feel are truly dedicated to things that I am dedicated to, as I noted above.

I was just saying that I think, when it comes to leaving for months at a time to sail across the ocean, there are some very real situational obstacles. many folks would argue that it would be the height of irresponsibility to just up and quit work and head off to ports unknown without proper financial planning and without having secure knowledge of a job and financial ability when you return. yet, there are those that fling all caution to the wind and set off like vagabonds with no thought of the future and no financial planning.

I have been reading the account of one such individual who did just that in a small plywood sailboat called 'shrimpy'. he set sail with very little money and relied on odd jobs and charity to fund his voyage. it's interesting reading. but, if the large majority of us were to be the type to throw responsibility to the wind, there'd have been no one to give him charity, for him to survive.

I think, when it comes to finding a way to afford such a thing ( I will not discuss the other responsibilities that tend to hold most adults back from just running off ), you can't really say that someone would do it if they really wanted to. that's a bit unrealistic. it's like the people who, when they meet someone that life has taken a royal crap on, love to say, "life is what you make it".

most often, those are people who life has thrown opportunities at or, at least, not crapped on. life isn't what you make it. life is what you do with the things that come your way. if life gives you opportunities and you fail to rise to the moment, then that sentiment is applicable. but, life isn't always so kind. some of us work hard and wrest every inch, we climb, out of life, with the winter gales beating us brutally, only to get tossed back to the bottom, again and again, by things beyond our control. then we get back up and begin the climb again. can you really say to such a person, "life is what you make it"?

note, you can tell my disdain for people who have not had to struggle yet love to say' life is what you make it ' to others who do. 

in another thread, I find a $300 cal 27 and am discussing whether I should get it. I did, by the way. it was a opportunity that life gave me. it needs work but it's, ultimately, in good shape. I don't usually get opportunities so I jumped on it.

however, i'm climbing back up the mountain, again, after being kicked down ( something life loves to do to me ). I don't have any money. it took all I had to scrape together the $300. and I had to do that in two installments! the prorated slip fee for this month is $136. I was able to scrape together $37 to put towards that. I need to get insurance and pay the rest of the slip fee by the weekend. my car insurance is due today as is my rent. I managed to line up a few extra side jobs for Thursday and Friday to earn some extra money. but i'm sweating it, pretty hard. will I pull it off? I don't know. I never do know. but I will manage somehow. I knew it would be hard when I took this boat/opportunity, but I also wasn't about to pass up the opportunity.

throughout the years, I have sailed every moment I can. I didn't have a cruiser, just a 9' dinghy and a 20' daysailer. and there have been a lot of years I couldn't use the daysailer for various reasons, so I just had my dinghy ( I really wish there was a better name for such boats. the 5th grader in me snickers every time I talk about 'my dinghy '). and I have sailed that dinghy through winters, in freezing temperatures with layers of long johns on, past ice flows. I have sailed in gusty conditions that had other sailors telling me they thought I was crazy. I keep the dinghy in the back of my truck so I can sail every chance I get, usually several times a week. now, I have bought a cruising boat, that I have to fix up and I really can't even afford the slip fees and insurance for, and am going to add that fight to my list of battles to win.

I love sailing like nothing else, but could I possibly do an ocean voyage, now, or at any time in my past? no. it just isn't and hasn't been possible, from a financial standpoint. if you add the responsibilities that I have no choice but to fulfill, it's been even less possible. have I been whining about it? no. I am just stating facts. facts that are as immovable as a mountain. will I get the chance to sail across the ocean? I sure hope so. it depends on how life goes. I am simply a sailor, sailing across the sea of life. I can not control the winds, only trim my sails and keep her upright and sailing.

what I am trying to say is, not all those who end up not being able to cross oceans are just whiners who lack commitment.

this raises a question about this thread, though. when we say cruising ( for the purpose of this thread ) are we only talking about sailing across the sea to other countries? the title is about the future of the sailing world, not the future of cruising or blue water cruising. I think the discussion has been aimed at cruising and somewhat towards blue water cruising. however, is the future of sailing so narrowly focused?

young people who start sailing dinghies, now, can ultimately work up to cruising and even ocean passages as they get older. is the future of sailing in danger because many young people, in recent generations, aren't just buying boats and sailing around the world?

the baby boomer generation, that did do that in larger numbers, was characterized by young people who shirked the responsibilities of society and just hopped in the old VW bus and hit the road. such people spent a few years just bumming around, getting high...the summer of love. then they all came home to a booming economy. they changed their tie dies out for suits and got in on the ground floor of major financial opportunities and now live in mc mansions.

let's face it, there is no booming economy. there are no ground floors. it's nearly impossible to live, in our modern world, the way that generation of kids did. so, does the fact that most young people aren't doing the hippy thing, today, really endanger sailing, as a lifestyle?

one further question is this: is the future of sailing the same as the future of cruising? not everyone who sails wants to cruise. some are totally happy taking a nice day sail on the weekend. some like to race. some like to just cruise down the bay for the weekend. and, of course, others want to cross oceans. but, aren't all of these people part of the future of sailing, not just those who cruise?


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## Sublime

Hannah sure ruffled some feathers! :laugher


IMO cruising does not mean living aboard. And someone living aboard does not necessarily "cruise". Hell, you can take 3 day "cruises" aboard a ship if you want. 
I took this thread as asking why aren't more young people sailing. Perhaps I misunderstood.

Anyway, it's safe to say the world can't operate if the entire population took off in a boat to wander around the oceans and drink wine. There would be no balance.
The liveaboard-and-cruise'ers need those who are willing to give up that life they so desire or else wandering around the oceans while drinking wine would be dangerous. Think of all the nameless and faceless people who protect the waters and keep the thugs in line. And those earning a paycheck need the liveaboard-and-cruise'ers to keep a dream alive so they remain sane. We all depend on each other in the grand scheme of things.

You never know the obstacles other people are facing. Some may be working so they can buy their chemo to treat their cancer. 
Perhaps they have a family member who is disabled. Is it an excuse or is it a reason for remaining on land to work and provide for that family member?
Or maybe they're trying to provide a lifestyle for someone they love, who they'd move heaven and earth to make that person happy. They'd rather be with that person than alone on a boat in the ocean.
Maybe they had plans to have a family and live life on the oceans, but their child was born with medical conditions requiring frequent medical care.

I think it's good to remember that we all wear different shoes. Some of those shoes were given to them without any other options. Some didn't have a choice to go buy the shoes they wanted. 
We often make assumptions about people we're talking to as if they had the same choices we did when it's just not right.


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## captain jack

well said!


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## Whalesarecool

I'm in my 20's and am cruising with my buddy from Maine to the carribean on his 1972 30ft islander. Been a great trip so far. Follow us at whalesarecool.com. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks! The economy does suck but it also comes with cheap old boats and the chance to live cheap and free! Don't know why more people don't do this other than not knowing about this option


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## hannah2

Sal Paradise said:


> Hannah
> 
> Wine is 80 cents a bottle? no wonder you live large!! I'd never leave. Here one beer in a pub is $6, you need a $50k income for an apartment and an old car, lesss than that and you have to shack up with 5 room mates or freeze under a bridge, I just spent $800 on a tank of heating oil that will probably last 2 months and I am working to supply all 5 in my family with a roof, a bed, 3 meals and health insurance.
> 
> Seriously it is all great to hear about all the youngins who get out there and live the dream. But doesn't it stand to reason that someone somehwere is paying the price of supporting them. Keeping the homestead , or the rest of the family whole, paying airfare back and being the mommy/.daddy bank when things go wrong. Nothing wrong with that either - I wish my wife and I had some support when we started out. Instead it was straight out to the hourly wage farm - and move lively!
> 
> Very few, or almost no american kids are going to go cruising that without family or friends/ tribe - someone supporting them. There'd be no place to go home to, no one to call when you got sick ( WITH NO HEALTH INSURANCE!) hungry , your boat broke, or you just needed $$. Think about it. This is all over and above the cost of boat, equipment and daily expenses.


Hi Sal,

I don't think most of the 20 somethings we meet come from wealthy families or have support from their families. They seem to know what they wanted and set out to save, buy a used boat, get it in the best shape they could, took care of all the loose ends and went sailing. These young men and women are very self confident, very polite and friendly all of them are that we have met. Most know they can't sail off into the sunset forever and that they eventually will need to go to work again, maybe a year maybe two. They watch their money, eat simple, drink hard and go to few marinas or restruants. And things on this side of the pond are tough with high unemployment with the 20 somethings. Yes they have good health care, hopefully Americans will have it soon too. Some worked in hi tech, some were auto body mechanics, pay all over the place.

Sounds just the same as when I did it in 1972, save for a couple years, live in a house with 5 other guys, save some more, work an extra job buy a boat fix it up, tie up the loose ends have your folks give a big party for you then just go until the money runs out, come home and find a job even in those days it was hard too. But cruising was all I could think about and I made it work. I'll say it again, if you really really want to you can find away just like whalesarecool did.

I got to love that guy who wanted to know how much my boat cost! What an angry dork. That's like asking a Montana rancher how many acres he owns We are in our 60's now and because sailing is our focus we can afford a really wonderful boat and proud as hell we can, we earned it and we deserve it as far as we are concerned. Life is not a practice run it's the real thing so bud or what ever your name is be happy living that wonderful life you have made for yourself.

The rest of you 20/30 somethings if you really want to go sailing make it happen. It can be done.

Cheers


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## Sal Paradise

yeah I like whalesarecool's blog. 

I'm 100% happy for anyone who is out sailing for a year, no ifs ands or buts - do it while you can! Good for you on the retirement boat. I'm 8 years behind you. Stay thirsty, my friend. 

family, tribe friends... someone to come home to is always good.


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## bljones

captain jack said:


> it's like the people who, when they meet someone that life has taken a royal crap on, love to say, "life is what you make it".
> 
> most often, those are people who life has thrown opportunities at or, at least, not crapped on. life isn't what you make it. life is what you do with the things that come your way.


Respectfully...
bullschlitz.
Your life is entirely up to you. Sorry, jack, but it IS what you make it. It is NOT what you do with the things that come your way, it is making your OWN way despite of the things that come at you, and taking advantage where you can, ...and MAKING advantage where you can't.

I'd be happy trade "my life has been harder than yours" creds, but it really doesn't matter- success is a choice, no matter what tax bracket you were born into. So is accepting a lack of success.

Success isn't all about money- it is all about not having to offer excuses or explanations for where you are at, and how you got there.

Yeah, I know, I know, the economy has been hit hard and there are no jobs and the wrong guy is president and yadda yadda yadda... but some folks still got rich, and some folks still made the decision to live life on their own terms...maybe because they focused on looking for the opportunities to succeed, not wasting time and energy finding excuses for NOT succeeding.


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## captain jack

bljones said:


> Respectfully...
> bullschlitz.
> Your life is entirely up to you. Sorry, jack, but it IS what you make it. It is NOT what you do with the things that come your way, it is making your OWN way despite of the things that come at you, and taking advantage where you can, ...and MAKING advantage where you can't.
> 
> I'd be happy trade "my life has been harder than yours" creds, but it really doesn't matter- success is a choice, no matter what tax bracket you were born into. So is accepting a lack of success.
> 
> Success isn't all about money- it is all about not having to offer excuses or explanations for where you are at, and how you got there.
> 
> Yeah, I know, I know, the economy has been hit hard and there are no jobs and the wrong guy is president and yadda yadda yadda... but some folks still got rich, and some folks still made the decision to live life on their own terms...maybe because they focused on looking for the opportunities to succeed, not wasting time and energy finding excuses for NOT succeeding.


that just sounds all good and wonderful but what you are saying is that the circumstances and conditions of life have nothing to do with what is possible. so, by your world view, it is absolutely possible for a paraplegic to get up and compete, and win, in the 100 yd dash. and, although i have no wings, if i really try hard enough, i can go out and climb up on my roof, jump off, and fly to florida for the winter.

that's not reality. you show me someone who had it hard but rose out of it and i will show you someone who had an opportunity.

to use a real life example, not that the paraplegic example wasn't real life, i will use my mom's boyfriend, Jim.

he had been having trouble breathing for several years. despite constantly seeking medical help, he was told he was in perfect health, despite the fact that he was having trouble breathing.

around june of last year, a dr finally figured out what the cause was. he had lung cancer. it was keeping him from filling his lungs. despite a number of other x-rays, no on had found it previously.

jim fought hard and pushed his doctors. he had surgery and kemo. they discovered the cancer had spread to other parts of the body right after they finally discovered his cancer.

he was told, if he got through all of the kemo and reduced the original cancer enough and got the rest of the cancer stopped they would use a cyberknife to cut out the cancer in his lungs. it was his only chance.

after suffering and struggling through all of the treatments, he had met the requirements for the cyberknife. one week later he drowned on his own blood, in the hospital. in the time it took them to schedule the cyberkife, the original cancer, in his lungs had suddenly grown exponentially. and, mysteriously, the other cancers had popped up all over his body....despite the 'success' of his treatment.

now, Jim fought hard to live. he did everything possible. but he died just on the ede of getting the proceedure that was supposed to save him.

so, by your world view, Jim must have been a screw up and didn't try hard enough or he'd not be dead. because the circumstances and conditions of life do not matter. life is what you make it, regardless of the circumstances. and paraplegics are obviously just loosers that don't try hard enough, or they'd be able to walk. life is what you make it.

and that's why, if you are worthy and try hard enough, you can sail your boat straight into the wind. because the conditions and circumstances of life don't matter. life is what you make it. sure it is.

your life is never entirely up to you. you and your life and the path of that life are constantly being affected and altered, limited and liberated, by all kinds of influences outside of yourself. it is never completely up to you. it is never without conditions. it is never without limitations. ask any paraplegic if his life is completely up to him. ask the guy that had to have his legs amputated because of a drunk driver if his life has been completely up to him.

do you think that the people who have to live with these things, are limited and controlled by these things, or even die because of these things choose that for themselves?

according to your post, you must. because " life is completely up to you."


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## ScottUK

> Your life is entirely up to you. Sorry, jack, but it IS what you make it. It is NOT what you do with the things that come your way, it is making your OWN way despite of the things that come at you, and taking advantage where you can, ...and MAKING advantage where you can't.


I'm sure the billions of people living on $2 a day would agree with you.


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## Sal Paradise

bljones said:


> Respectfully...
> bullschlitz.
> Your life is entirely up to you.
> 
> Yeah, I know, I know, the economy has been hit hard and there are no jobs and the wrong guy is president and yadda yadda yadda... but some folks still got rich, and some folks still made the decision to live life on their own terms...maybe because they focused on looking for the opportunities to succeed, not wasting time and energy finding excuses for NOT succeeding.


What this point of view completely ignores is real demographics and economics. Sure, we can all point to individual examples. But the fact is, if you have x number of jobs and 2x number of people needing jobs, you will not only have rampant economic misery as wages are depressed, but there will always be x number of people who are unemployed, no matter who makes a decision to live life on their own terms. Its just math.

For example, I am an architect -and I can show you examples of individual architects who have landed lucrative contracts but they are few and far between. I could say that those few architects building homes on the ocean in California for example made a decision to succeed. They probably did, but so did unemployed architects all across the country. There are precious few contracts compared to the number of architects. The fact is that tens of thousands of architects are unemployed in the U.S. and quite frankly they are simply out of luck no matter what they do.

By the way, I am doing okay, I'm just saying..... look at the numbers.

This article in today's The New York Times even includes young person struggling with unemployment in - of all places - the Canary Islands. She must not have made a decision to succeed otherwise she would be on an expensive sailing yacht right now waiting to head to the Caribbean. How foolish of her and her father. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/16/world/europe/youth-unemployement-in-europe.html?hp&_r=0


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## hannah2

Yes there are many who live a sad life in many countries around the world and with no way out. I hope those of us who are more fortunate do what they can to help. 

But with this thread I think we are talking about your average young person in a first world country. He or she is healthy, of sound mind. What sets them aside from the rest of the average folks and I think we are all a part of the average folks is they have a desire so strong to accomplish what they want that some of them succeed. Not all do and I know that but some do live their dream. I guess I have been lucky, only a high school education, barely and a good trade that eventually paid off later in life. But I knew what I wanted and gave up a lot of other things in life to get what I wanted. That's what I have been trying to say here. When I hear most likely healthy want to be sailors complain they are stuck as a slave to the man maybe they should get a little pissed off or a lot pissed off and make the needed changes so they can live the dream. If you have a big debt from university focus on paying it off as fast as you can, think,think how you can do it out side the box. If you have a wife or husband who does not share your dream you must decide what is more important to you and go with what is more important. But what ever you decide stop the crying and move on with life. Be happy as you can be and achieve your goals. 

Here we are in the warm Canary Islands working 6 hours to 10 hours a day getting the boat ready for passage. Work is hard but rewarding, all most every cruiser here is doing the same. When it's time to stop working for the day we shower up and start to enjoy the other side of cruising while at the dock. We meet great like minded people, I'm sure we all had the dream and couldn't stop, the respect here amongst cruisers is great, no one puts someone elses boat down because its old or because its new. As long as the owner and crew put an effort into making sure they are sailing safe we all respect their show. Those out there who really want to live this dream most likely will and I hope a few of you will.

Bought 20 boxes of box wine at pay and cash this morning for 0.60 to 1.25 Euros each, no sin tax here. With the total supply we should never have to buy expensive wine in the Carib. Well I have to complete rebuilding the head as it is making loud noises and needs
to be greased but as soon as I do its off to a BBQ at the scotts boat next door. This week is the world championships here for the RC 44's, all young men and women in their 20/30's who have been working around the clock to get the boats ready, should be fun to watch when we are not working on our boat. 

Cheers


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## Group9

People have more control over their lives than they realize or admit.

I've know people who were born in ghettos, in basically third world conditions, who decided their was a better life for them and made it (read the real life story of Jay Z).

I've also arrested a few hundred drug dealers, living in squalor, with a shoebox with $100,000 in cash under the bed, and $200,000 in electronics, clothing, DVD's cars, other non-durable consumer goods, who would argue that there was no way for them to escape their sad lives.

It is 99 per cent mindset. And, we can wish everyone in the world had it, but we can't give it to them, or make them be like us, no matter how sure we are, that they would be better off.


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## captain jack

Group9 said:


> People have more control over their lives than they realize or admit.
> 
> I've know people who were born in ghettos, in basically third world conditions, who decided their was a better life for them and made it (read the real life story of Jay Z).
> 
> I've also arrested a few hundred drug dealers, living in squalor, with a shoebox with $100,000 in cash under the bed, and $200,000 in electronics, clothing, DVD's cars, other non-durable consumer goods, who would argue that there was no way for them to escape their sad lives.
> 
> It is 99 per cent mindset. And, we can wish everyone in the world had it, but we can't give it to them, or make them be like us, no matter how sure we are, that they would be better off.


I am not saying you can't improve your life. I am responding to the statement that the circumstances in life have no effect on your possibilities. most assuredly, you can work to improve a bad situation. you are not usually completely stuck, although, depending on the situation, you may also be stuck to a degree.

some things you can completely overcome. some things you can work to your advantage. some things you can minimize he negative impact of. some things you can recover from. sometimes you can't, though. sometimes you are completely screwed.

even when you can overcome, very often it's like sailing into the wind, you have to take an indirect path and work it. so, it's going to take you longer, sometimes much longer to reach your goals. the loftier the goal, the longer it may take.

the post that started this discussion stated that, if you can't just drop everything and sail off across the sea, you just must not want it bad enough. the idea is that your life is completely in your hands and circumstances have no control over you. that's just not true.

the examples you gave are very valid, but there are lots of people offering opportunities to help people climb out of the lowest cesspools of life. there are a lot less opportunities, for people that are struggling to maintain their status out of the cesspool, to take the step to having real financial wherewithal. it's a lot harder to get past that point, for many people. it's not that they can't do it, in the end. but it may be that they really can't get to that end until later in life.

but, the truth is, life honestly does screw some people. it creates limitations that there is no way to completely overcome.


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## casioqv

Some people truly have it hard, but most of the young people I see complaining about how difficult things are have buried themselves in debt to buy unnecessary things: a mortgage on a house they can't afford, new car payments, an expensive cell phone plan, etc. With such behavior, no income level would ever free them from debt & wage slavery.

These people have bought into the idea that spending gives quality of life, when in reality owning things you don't need mostly causes stress- whereas savings reduces stress and gives you freedom and financial security.

There's a growing movement of young people into frugality and simple living that find by cutting their expenses, they can retire wealthy at a young age with a very modest income. This article gives an example of how this works:
The Shockingly Simple Math Behind Early Retirement by Mr. Money Mustache


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## bljones

Sal Paradise said:


> What this point of view completely ignores is real demographics and economics. ...
> For example, I am an architect -...
> 
> By the way, I am doing okay,


and MY point is that if you WEREN'T doing okay, but you still chose to continue to be an architect, and simply shrugging and saying, well, it's because of numbers and economics and that is the reason why my life sucks...
You would be wrong.
Your life sucks because you are still an architect! 
If there is no money in being an architect (or whatever) the choice is yours to change your life and do something else. yeah, it's hard, yeah it's tough, but no tougher than not doing anything else by choice, and being forced to do it after a period of soul-sucking unemployment.
Look at the numbers and demographics and see obstacles or see opportunity- it is always a choice.


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## bljones

ScottUK said:


> I'm sure the billions of people living on $2 a day would agree with you.


Luckily you're not one of them. They'd love to have the opportunities you squander every day.


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## bljones

captain jack said:


> that just sounds all good and wonderful but what you are saying is that the circumstances and conditions of life have nothing to do with what is possible. so, by your world view, it is absolutely possible for a paraplegic to get up and compete, and win, in the 100 yd dash. and, although i have no wings, if i really try hard enough, i can go out and climb up on my roof, jump off, and fly to florida for the winter.
> 
> that's not reality. you show me someone who had it hard but rose out of it and i will show you someone who had an opportunity.


 No, I'll show you someone who SAW an opportunity, or MADE an opportunity. 
Like the one guy in a homeless shelter who actually reads the employment ads in the newspaper, instead of listening to those who say "there are no jobs."
...and then that guy goes to the library and types out a resume, instead of listening to those who say " nobody will give me a job because I haven't got a computer to make a resume."
...and then prowled the donation bin at the Goodwill store before the clothes hit the rack to find the best dress pants and blazer and shirt and tie before they hit the racks, instead of listening to those who said "nobody ever hires homeless people- it's not our fault we look homeless."
... and then used up a roll of quarters at the payphone making phone calls to answer those ads in the paper to get an interview or two, (repeatedly calling back because there was no number to leave for some to return a call,) instead of listening to those who said "we can't get a job- we don't have an address or a phone."
... and then walking across the city to those interviews instead of listening to those who say, "we can't afford to go to a job interview- no money for a bus or a taxi."
... and then keeps doing it, day after day, instead of listening to htose who said "see, told you there were no jobs and nobody hires people like us."
... and then told this story to the business owner at the job interviews he finally gets...
and gets both jobs.

Instead of listening to those who said that it's not possible for a homeless person suffering from mental illness to succeed, and list all sorts of reasons why.

Your failure to understand this concept explains the silliness of your first paragraph in your response, because that was NOT what I was saying at all.

Your limitations, and the limitations of most people, are not physical, but a failure to make your own luck...
maybe because you figure it's no more possible than jumping off the roof and flying to Florida.

By the way, that homeless guy? That was me.

That's MY reality.


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## Sal Paradise

bljones said:


> the choice is yours to change your life and do something else. yeah, it's hard, yeah it's tough, but no tougher than not doing anything else by choice, and being forced to do it after a period of soul-sucking unemployment.Look at the numbers and demographics and see obstacles or see opportunity- it is always a choice.


This merely reinforces the idea that its the lack of economic opportunities, and hence the time and years to reinvent yourself that is the EXACT same answer; Its the economy. According to you, a person could be making 150 grand as an architect, which pays you back for all your hard work and investment, take that hard earned money and go cruising - or - you can go through soul sucking unemployment, then "change your life" and open a chain of dollar stores, spend the next 20 years doing that to make the very same money. Those two outcomes are NOT equal.


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## bljones

No, sal, you're missing the point- if one is making $150k as an architect, that is a good choice, which pays you back for all the hard work, etc.... BUT, if the market falls out and one is no longer making $150K as an architect, then one has a choice- go bankrupt and blame the economy and the circumstances, or recognize that it is time to find a new gig, before the inevitable bankruptcy- THAT is the choice.
No matter how bad the economy is, there are always opportunities.... unless you fail to see them.


30 years ago there were thousands of draftsmen, merrily scribbling away at drafting boards. Then, along comes CAD. the draftsman has a choice- learn cad, or blame the rise of the machines for his being out of a job.

Your choices determine your success.


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## Sal Paradise

I'm not missing it. Your point is a tangent. See if you can dig this -the title of this thread isn't 

Why are there so few young people bankrupt and blaming others and refusing to reinvent themselves? 

Its a valid point, that you should be able reinvent yourself but actually, as I see it -in this discussion - as it relates to reasons why young people are not cruising, your point is synonymous with those who say "the economy" except that you throw in a bit of Ayn Rand happy sauce and some moralizing. As I see it anyway.


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## caberg

hannah2 said:


> I got to love that guy who wanted to know how much my boat cost! What an angry dork.


hannah2, you can address me directly. No need for the passive aggressive thing. It was a rhetorical question. Anyone can ballpark the cost of a boat. The point is to give some perspective to your posts. You're ridiculing others for not casting off the lines without a penny to spare, but fail to mention that finances are not a concern for you personally. It sounds like you _see_ other young cruisers who are doing it on the cheap, but you are not one. You are a rich white old American with a big fancy boat. That's not a bad thing. Good for you--you really should be proud. But don't pretend to be what you are not, which is what you are doing in this thread.


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## Unkle Toad

to address recent posts in this thread first.
Looks like there are some people who pretty strongly about their opinions and as we all know everyone had one. really its pretty interesting to see the varying viewpoints but I think we can probably all agree that there is a middle line somewhere which is where reality is. yes there are people who make poor decisions (our hypothetical Archatect who complains about no work instead of deciding to do something else) yes there are people who who have been beat down by things they nave no control over. (the paraplegic who wants to run a marathon) The reality is it takes a combination of opportunity and mental attitude. I could go on a lot more about this, about personality types, about opportunity, about privilage(inherited and created) but that is not what this thread is about

this thread asked about the future of the sailing industry and mentioned not as many young cruisers. I think over all 1st world countries have become a little less adventure oriented and a little more comfort oriented. this is not to say that there are not individuals who dont fit the norm's, there always are. but I think many more people will choose to go sailing for a year or two in between careers, in their 30's or 40's then the 20 somethings of yore who just jumped on board and hoped. People have become a little more paranoid(or informed) of would could really happen out there and take a little time to get prepared, think about what to do when they get back. 

or I could just be talking out my A$$.


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## bljones

Sal Paradise said:


> I'm not missing it. Your point is a tangent. See if you can dig this -the title of this thread isn't
> 
> Why are there so few young people bankrupt and blaming others and refusing to reinvent themselves?
> 
> Its a valid point, that you should be able reinvent yourself but actually, as I see it -in this discussion - as it relates to reasons why young people are not cruising, your point is synonymous with those who say "the economy" except that you throw in a bit of Ayn Rand happy sauce and some moralizing. As I see it anyway.


I'm sorry, I though you were addressing my tangent which was addressing another tangent,but you are addressing the thread as a whole, although you quote my tangent.  I can dig it.

LOL @ "Ayn Rand happy sauce and some moralizing." I'm not a "fountainhead", I am simply pointing out where I am coming from and why, having been there, done that.

Thanks for pointing out I have a valid point.


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## christian.hess

well one good thing about a global down economy is in certgain places you can buy huge deals boatwise...

30, 40, 50 footers for half of what they would cost in a booming economy...

so buy when you can cheap, save up when the boom hits and leave earlier than you plan to...never later! jajaja

peace


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## captain jack

bljones said:


> No, I'll show you someone who SAW an opportunity, or MADE an opportunity.
> Like the one guy in a homeless shelter who actually reads the employment ads in the newspaper, instead of listening to those who say "there are no jobs."
> ...and then that guy goes to the library and types out a resume, instead of listening to those who say " nobody will give me a job because I haven't got a computer to make a resume."
> ...and then prowled the donation bin at the Goodwill store before the clothes hit the rack to find the best dress pants and blazer and shirt and tie before they hit the racks, instead of listening to those who said "nobody ever hires homeless people- it's not our fault we look homeless."
> ... and then used up a roll of quarters at the payphone making phone calls to answer those ads in the paper to get an interview or two, (repeatedly calling back because there was no number to leave for some to return a call,) instead of listening to those who said "we can't get a job- we don't have an address or a phone."
> ... and then walking across the city to those interviews instead of listening to those who say, "we can't afford to go to a job interview- no money for a bus or a taxi."
> ... and then keeps doing it, day after day, instead of listening to htose who said "see, told you there were no jobs and nobody hires people like us."
> ... and then told this story to the business owner at the job interviews he finally gets...
> and gets both jobs.
> 
> Instead of listening to those who said that it's not possible for a homeless person suffering from mental illness to succeed, and list all sorts of reasons why.
> 
> Your failure to understand this concept explains the silliness of your first paragraph in your response, because that was NOT what I was saying at all.
> 
> Your limitations, and the limitations of most people, are not physical, but a failure to make your own luck...
> maybe because you figure it's no more possible than jumping off the roof and flying to Florida.
> 
> By the way, that homeless guy? That was me.
> 
> That's MY reality.


dude. no one is saying it's not possible to help yourself. I have been there. I was living outside, sleeping beside my bike. it's all I had. I didn't take government help or charity. I didn't beg for money. I got a job shoveling dog crap at a kennel. I took my baths in the sinks in gas station bathrooms. I washed my clothes, which I kept tied to my sissybar, in the Laundromat. none of my coworkers knew I had no home. I saved my money and got my back bills paid off ( it was a bad fall from grace ). I kept my sleeping bag tied to the sissybar of my bike. by the time I had worked at the kennel for two months I was running it for the owner. I had gotten $3 worth of raises ( from peanuts to not a whole lot ). I lived by the bike through the first part of winter and found out a friend was thinking about leaving home. so, together, we got a place and I wasn't homeless anymore. that was the first fall, years ago.

but I had opportunities. I found a job with a boss that appreciated my worth. the only one I have had. all other bosses just use you up. she voluntarily gave me raises. I also got lucky and a friend was getting ready to leave home, when I was financially prepared to afford a place.

what if I had not had the same opportunities? what if my boss, at that time, had been like all of my other bosses? I wouldn't have gotten those raises. i'd have been doing the extra work but not getting the extra money. that would have changed things. I might not have been ready when my friend was thinking of getting a place. or, what if my friend wasn't thinking of moving out? I wasn't making enough to get a place of my own. and if both opportunities had not been there....

that's what I am saying. people don't make opportunities. they see opportunities that others may not have seen and they take the opportunity. but you don't make opportunities. but people who were down and worked their way back up rarely see that they had opportunities, without which they would not have climbed back up. they usually only see their own efforts to get back up. then they want to go around saying that anybody can do anything they want, with their life, regardless of the circumstances because they truly believe that's what they did.

all I am saying is that you can't honestly say life is what you make it regardless of circumstances. you can narc on that thought all you want but there are people, like the paraplegic or the guy who ended up with no legs because of a drunk driver, that are stuck living the reality of that thought. life happens to people. sometimes you can overcome t and get things back to where you want. other times you are cursed to live with the outcome for the rest of your life. and sometimes you die.

there is a big difference between just giving up, and wallowing in self defeat, and realizing the limitations of your present situation and doing the best you can with what life has dealt you. you are not seeing that difference.

a paraplegic can hope that something ill happen and he will someday be able to walk, but in the meantime he has to live in the reality of his situation. the same thing goes for everyone else, too.

this tangent came about because of the implication that, if someone would like to cruise, but hasn't because their life won't allow that, or hasn't allowed that, yet, then they are just whiners ( with the insinuation that they are thus losers )
that haven't really tried.

for myself, I have sailed the boats I had, the ones I could afford. life was just not supportive of anything else. I dreamed of more but live the reality I had to live. now, I bought a cruiser. it was on the lean dock and I got it for $300. it was all I could do to scrape it up and it is a difficulty trying to pay the slip fees and get insurance and....

it needs a lot of work before I can even sail it. and the whole process is just making a hard struggle harder, but I knew what I one day wanted and I refused to let the opportunity slip through my fingers, when it presented itself.

can I go cruising now? not at all. but I am going to get her fixed up and I will sail her. will I cruise then? sure, but for the foreseeable future, weekend cruising is all I can realistically plan on. there is money and my job to worry about. I can't afford more than weekend cruising and I certainly can't take time off from work. and I can't just quit work and run off to sail to the Caribbean. I have to know I can survive when I return, when I do go long distance cruising.

do I want more than weekends? yes. is that happening now? no. it's not possible. would I love to just up and set sail over the sea for ports unknown? yes, but I live in the really for real world.

everything in it's time. I will do all I can, to achieve what i'd like, but I have to take care of what I need, in the present.

someday, will I make a blue water passage? hopefully. I will if it's my wyrd to do so. but am I a whiner, who just isn't trying, because I haven't done so, yet, or because I am not doing so, now? of course not. and that was the point, way back when this little side discussion began. not all people has the ability to go sailing the sea and they aren't losers or whiners because of it.

why do you think that there was a lot of outraged response, other than mine, to Hannas' original post?


----------



## captain jack

casioqv said:


> There's a growing movement of young people into frugality and simple living that find by cutting their expenses, they can retire wealthy at a young age with a very modest income. This article gives an example of how this works:
> The Shockingly Simple Math Behind Early Retirement by Mr. Money Mustache


yeah. that's what I was talking about in an earlier post, before this side discussion began. there are youtube videos about that


----------



## captain jack

Unkle Toad said:


> to address recent posts in this thread first.
> Looks like there are some people who pretty strongly about their opinions and as we all know everyone had one. really its pretty interesting to see the varying viewpoints but I think we can probably all agree that there is a middle line somewhere which is where reality is. yes there are people who make poor decisions (our hypothetical Archatect who complains about no work instead of deciding to do something else) yes there are people who who have been beat down by things they nave no control over. (the paraplegic who wants to run a marathon) The reality is it takes a combination of opportunity and mental attitude. I could go on a lot more about this, about personality types, about opportunity, about privilage(inherited and created) but that is not what this thread is about.


great post. that is exactly what I have been trying to say. it takes a combination of opportunity and attitude. the right attitude, alone, isn't enough.



Unkle Toad said:


> this thread asked about the future of the sailing industry and mentioned not as many young cruisers. I think over all 1st world countries have become a little less adventure oriented and a little more comfort oriented. this is not to say that there are not individuals who dont fit the norm's, there always are. but I think many more people will choose to go sailing for a year or two in between careers, in their 30's or 40's then the 20 somethings of yore who just jumped on board and hoped. People have become a little more paranoid(or informed) of would could really happen out there and take a little time to get prepared, think about what to do when they get back.
> 
> or I could just be talking out my A$$.


personally, I think you are spot on.


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## captain jack

christian.hess said:


> well one good thing about a global down economy is in certgain places you can buy huge deals boatwise...
> 
> 30, 40, 50 footers for half of what they would cost in a booming economy...


that's the truth. I never would have expected to get this cal 27 for $300, needing work or not, a number of years ago.


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## bljones

captain jack said:


> dude. no one is saying it's not possible to help yourself.


... actually, that is exactly what you have been saying. We all live with limitations. some are living more limited than others, and it has nothing to do with ability. if you want something bad enough, you find a way. if you don't, you didn't want it that bad. Anything else is just excuses.

Oh, regarding outrage- just because you're outraged, it doesn't mean you are right.

I used to get outraged when people called me an *******. See my point?


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## captain jack

bljones said:


> ... actually, that is exactly what you have been saying. We all live with limitations. some are living more limited than others, and it has nothing to do with ability. if you want something bad enough, you find a way. if you don't, you didn't want it that bad. Anything else is just excuses.
> 
> Oh, regarding outrage- just because you're outraged, it doesn't mean you are right.
> 
> I used to get outraged when people called me an *******. See my point?


ok this is a useless discussioin. you really aren't hearing what i am saying and i doubt you are reading what you are typing because you contradict yourself. at this point, i'd say you are arguing just to win and actual meaning has no place in it, anymore. just to point out where you are contradicting yourself, in one sentence you admit we all live with limitations and in the very next sentence you say that if you want something bad enough, you will be able to get it; that any thing else is just excuses. so, let's sum that up. in the first sentence you admit that we all live with limitations but in the next you state that we are limitless; that if life limits you, you are just not trying hard enough. i am sure that paralized and cripled people all over the planet will be glad to hear that, although they are limitled by their afliction, living life as if they were not in any way compromised, the same as everyone else, is as simple as wanting it badly enough. i am sure that starving children, in third world countries, will take solace from the fact that, according to you, they can be ruler of the world, if they just want it bad enough. the blind will be elated to know that, if they just want to see bad enough, it will happen. although, on the other hand, they may feel a little bad because their continued blindness is only because they don't want to see badly enough.

we could teach everyone across the planet the 'truth' of your assertation; preach it til they had no choice but to believe it...yet, across the globe, the poor will not be rich, the blind will not suddenly see, the deaf will not suddenly hear, the paralized will not walk, the old will not grow young, the dying will not be suddenly filled by the vigor of life...despite that all these people truly want these things with all of their hearts. it will not change reality because reality doesn't care what any of us think or believe. it is what it is.

i really have no desire to discuss this further. it's just talking in circles. it's a waste of time better applied to something of substance. reality is reality. talking in circles and posting contradicting statements, to prove a meritless premise, won't change the nature of reality. perhaps you need to win this argument in order to prove your ideal to yourself. perhaps believing such an extreme and unrealistic view is the only way you keep hope in your heart. maybe the true nature of reality; that we are all constantly limited, guided, and often controlled by forces outside of ourselves; is more than you can handle without giving up the fight. or, perhaps you just want to win and can't admit that your statement is a bit unrealistic. i don't know which it is.

however, since substance has no importance and you just wish to debate this til you win...you win. i will agree with your argument: although we are limited by the circmstances of our lives, we are totally unlimited by the circumstances in our lives and, if we are limited by said circumstances, it's just because we don't want our goals bad enough. there. does that make you feel all better?


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## northoceanbeach

I subscribe to the school of thought of setting off like a (semi) vagabond with no thought or future planning.


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## ScottUK

> We all live with limitations. some are living more limited than others, and it has nothing to do with ability. if you want something bad enough, you find a way.


Can't argue with that since it is illogical.

I love these morality plays because I too would like to drink the nectar until my cuppeth over runneth.


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## captain jack

northoceanbeach said:


> I subscribe to the school of thought of setting off like a (semi) vagabond with no thought or future planning.


if you have the ability, i think that might be the most fulfilling. all my bike trips were like that. i'd decide on a general direction/location, then i'd just tie my things to the chopper and follow the front wheel.


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## Sal Paradise

Uncle Toad

Although I agree with the general spirit of your post, I take issue with -

_"people who make poor decisions (our hypothetical Archatect who complains about no work instead of deciding to do something else) "
_
As being both unsympathetic and missing my main point entirely. In my original post where I spoke of this architect, the context was merely as a comparison of the number of jobs versus number of people looking for work. If there are X number of jobs and 2X number of applicants, you have a serious problem with people finding well paid employment. Even if everyone were to retrain, move and reinvent themselves, X is STILL LESS than 2X and the problem remains. And this affects the " young people going cruising " thing.

As an example I used the only experience I personally have to illustrate this, some fellow architects. But they did not make bad decisions. Even so, as smart and resourceful as they are, that was not my main point which seems to be lost. Not enough total number of jobs for the total number of applicants. 2X - 1X = 1X unemployed. This isn't what we are told in school, or in the media, so its hard for some people to get it. But its that simple.

No one at any point was arguing that a person should remain in a dead end profession.


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## captain jack

it's quite true about the job market. the media and administration, espcially, don't like to talk about it. but it's a big factor in most people's lives. when i first started in the HVAC buisiness ( sheet metal mechanic. fabrication and installation of duct systems ), there were actually more jobs that applicants. it was super easy to get a job. i just walked in and asked about a job. i talked to the owner for less than fifteen minutes. he hired me on the spot. i never even filled out an application. that was in 1988, i believe. now, there are 20 or more people in line for every job you apply to. people are actually trying to make fast food a support your family type career, and pressing for $15/hr. that was mnever meant to be that kind of a job. it was always entry level. but times change. 'real' jobs are hard to come by.

not only does it effect the employment rate, but it effects the income rate. if there are more jobs than people to do them, employers are forced to compete for employees. they have to do somehing to entice you to work for them and then they have to try to keep you. if there are more people than jobs, it's the employees that are on trial. pay rates were higher, back then, comparatively ( less inflation ), and benefits were so much better.

when i started in HVAC, i was hired on at $8.50/hr and i had one week sick leave and two weeks paid vacation...all right after my 90 days were up. i was totally green. i knew nothing about HVAC.

now look at it, the most recent HVAC job i worked started 'green' employees out at $9.00/hr. no sick leave. after your 90 days was up, you got one week of paid vacation. two weeks after five years as an employee. that's a $1.00/hr increase, for the same job, in 20 years.

then, look at prices. in 1988, i was paying right around a dollar a gallon, for gas. a nice fairly new one bedroom cost me $395 a month. now, my girlfriend, who lives in a less expenisive area than i had, pays a bit over $500 for abn old, pretty run down efficiency.

it's actually been exponential, the way costs have grown in comparison to pay. in 1999, i got back into HAVC. i had left the field to pursue other interests. at that time, starting wages for green employees was $9.00/hr, as i noted above. i was started at that rate, until i proved myself. my rent was $600/month for a 2 story townhouse with a basement, 3 bedrooms and 2 full baths. by 2008, when i left HVAC due to the crash of the economy, starting wages were still $9.00/hr but rent for that same townhouse ( i had moved by then, actually, and saw it come up for rent ) was over $1000. 

wages had not changed but rent had almost doubled. and we are all aware of the exponential increase in gas prices in the last few years.

it's a different world out there. kids are getting out of college and finding that they can barely find an entry level position, let alnone a good paying job in their chosen field.


----------



## Group9

casioqv said:


> Some people truly have it hard, but most of the young people I see complaining about how difficult things are have buried themselves in debt to buy unnecessary things: a mortgage on a house they can't afford, new car payments, an expensive cell phone plan, etc. With such behavior, no income level would ever free them from debt & wage slavery.
> 
> These people have bought into the idea that spending gives quality of life, when in reality owning things you don't need mostly causes stress- whereas savings reduces stress and gives you freedom and financial security.
> 
> There's a growing movement of young people into frugality and simple living that find by cutting their expenses, they can retire wealthy at a young age with a very modest income. This article gives an example of how this works:
> The Shockingly Simple Math Behind Early Retirement by Mr. Money Mustache


I have tried and tried to impress this on my kids. My wife and I have finally decided that this is just a lesson that has to be learned the hard way. I hate to say how much money I blew in my teens and twenties before I learned the simple math of having money and how to accumulate it.


----------



## bljones

captain jack said:


> ok this is a useless discussioin. .... it will not change reality because reality doesn't care what any of us think or believe. it is what it is.
> 
> ... reality is reality.... won't change the nature of reality....perhaps believing such an extreme and unrealistic view is the only way you keep hope in your heart. maybe the true nature of reality; that we are all constantly limited, guided, and often controlled by forces outside of ourselves; is more than you can handle without giving up the fight. or, perhaps you just want to win and can't admit that your statement is a bit unrealistic.


Captain Jack, re-read this post that you have written.
Then go and re-read all of the posts from all of the people who told you you wouldn't be able to find a worthwhile boat for next to no money, etc., etc.,
That it wasn't "realistic."
Note the similarities.

They were wrong, weren't they?

I'm not looking to be "right," I wasn't looking for a debate. I was simply pointing out a different point of view.

My reality is working for me just fine. I figured I would share what worked for me. If it doesn't work for you, that is cool. Your life is yours.


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## Donna_F

TDW will buy everyone a round if none of you come to blows.


----------



## captain jack

bljones said:


> Captain Jack, re-read this post that you have written.
> Then go and re-read all of the posts from all of the people who told you you wouldn't be able to find a worthwhile boat for next to no money, etc., etc.,
> That it wasn't "realistic."
> Note the similarities.
> 
> They were wrong, weren't they?
> 
> I'm not looking to be "right," I wasn't looking for a debate. I was simply pointing out a different point of view.
> 
> My reality is working for me just fine. I figured I would share what worked for me. If it doesn't work for you, that is cool. Your life is yours.


you know, i think there is a point of misunderstanding between us. i agree, basically, with your message; that you have to work to make your life what you want it to be and amazing things are possible if you are willing to strive. i have lived my life by that idea.

but i think that there has to be some measure of reality, too. not all ends are achievable for any given starting place. and, many ends that seem impossible may be achievable, but it's possibly going to take a lot more time and effort than those standing on the outside looking in might realize.

the original post that started this side discussion, into which you entered, implied that, if anyone who wanted to go blue water cruising hadn't been able to do that, because of the realities of life, it was just that they were whiney losers that really didn't want it bad enough. i wasn't the only person to take exception to that, just, perhaps, the most verbose.

my point to that poster, the point that started all this off, was simply that you can't make that judgement. that, depending on the obstacles, the goal of blue water cruising might be impossible for some and that many, who wish to do so but haven't yet, are still working towards that goal. they still might never reach it, due the the course of life.

you can't know what is going to come your way. many people are laid low by unforseen circumstances. i mean it figuratively and litterally when i say 'laid low'.

but you can't judge those people harshly. some of us climb out of really deep pits, sometimes more than once, and overcome obstacles that many would see as impossible. many others fight hard and fall on the field of battle. you get my drift?

i agree with you. if you want something, you need to set that as your goal and do all you can to work towards it. impossible things can be possible. but, at the same time, everyone needs to be aware that they may not make it. things happen, in life. you may train hard in your martial art, arm yourself well, and step forth on the field of honor with might and vigor, only to be slain by an untrained peasant with a lucky blow. that's life. i am not saying you should not strive for the things you really want. you should. it's the striving that makes us human. it shapes our characters and teaches us. it makes us worthy. to never strive is to never be anything...to never become.

i get the impression that you think i am saying it is impossible so you shouldn't try. i'm not saying that at all. i have done a lot of 'impossible' things, in my life. i'd be the very last person to say something like that.

however, no one is right when they look at another person and deem his or her reasons for not achieving their dreams to be bogus. you can't judge another person like that. you don't know where they have been or what they may have faced.

i get upset about it because, if you look at the material evidence, i have done nothing in all my life of hard struggling.

i own no house. i rent my mom's basement. i pay more than i should for it. i could rent cheeper, where i am keeping this cal27. a lot cheaper. plus, my mom is....i hate to say it but she's a bit greedy. she overcharges me, even if i wasn't family and wasn't taking care of her and constantly doing things for her ( like rebuilding her front porch just recently ). i could move but then there would be no one to take care of my mother. she leans heavily on me. being completely honest, she has also been a very harmful element throughout my life. but she is my mother. it is the duty of a child to care for their parents. so, i do. it started out as a temporary stop over during the last crash my life had and i, now, stay because my mom needs me. she makes me crazy. it costs me too much in rent. i have to have storage for much of my belongings due to space, which also costs me. but i can not abandon her, either.

i drive a beat up pick up that was going to be junked from the work site, where i was the assisstant to the superintendent ( highly underpaid for what i was doing but glad, in this economy, just to have a job that was secure ). they saw an opportunity to get a charity deduction, instead of a loss, and have a back up work truck for the site. i only had my chopper, at the time. i was climbing out of a huge financial cave-in. they offered me the truck, for free, with the stipulation that, should the need arise, i would use the truck as the site truck. there was a lot of paperwork so they could get their charitable deduction. so, i did what i am getting ready to do with this boat, for that truck. i put a lot of hours into it, and parts money, and i got it going.

i am, generally, broke and living hand to mouth, as it were. my shoes are worn out. i never have money to do anything. after working my butt off since i was 13, and i am now 43, i am no better off than when i was just leaving home, at 18. worse, actually. now, i am haunted by the time. at this stage of life i am 'supposed' to have a house, a nice car, a wife and 2.5 children, a growing retirement fund. i have none of these. i have a number of people depending on me to save their bacon, on a regular basis, and i have a nice chopper that i built. and i am running out of time.

oh, and i now have 3 old boats. only the holiday20 is worth anything, at this point. the dinghy is worth something to me, personally, but it has no monetary value. and the 'new' boat needs a lot of work. but, in a effort to be honest, i have to list the boats as something i have to show for my efforts.

you could look at my life and judge me to be one of these losers that just didn't try hard enough. but then, unlike my friends who know me, you wouldn't really have any idea what i have achieved. while struggling to pull my butt out of the hole, i have always given to others. i have been a priest, to many. i have taught college kids medieval combat. i have put my time and effort to helping countless orther people. i built that chopper on a 4X4 table in a stone driveway while i was living in an unheated garage. i have worked my way to the most depended on and valuable employee over and over again; constantly having to prove my worth. i have won the respect and admiration of those that have known me, professionally and personally , despite my, often terrible, financial situation. and i have overcome outrageous hurdles to get to the nowhere i have gotten to. life keeps kicking me in the face and i keep getting back up and saying F you to life and starting back up again. and along the way, i never forget to strive and work for higher purpose; to do what i can to advance my fellow man.

one of my oldest friends has said that if i were to publish a book of my life, i'd have to catagorize it as fiction because no one would believe it. he's right. the stories i could tell...

and, through it all, i am still an optimistic person. i smile and joke around constantly. as the Havamal says," glad and wholesome should the hero be, until his dying day."

and, yeah, over the years, i have had a lot of people that have had lives that went their way, at every step, throw the words " life is what you make it" at me. people who know nothing about what i have faced and overcome. people who did not know what it means to really struggle. who don't know what it is like to have all of your achievements ripped from you time and again, through no fault or doing of your own. i may not have the material things that they have but my actual achievements far surpass anything those people have ever done, in their lives. not all achievements are readily visible to a passing glance.

but i had obviously not tried hard enough because life is what you make it and if you really want something you will get it, if you work hard enough. i must have liked to live in such poverty and didn't really want to have more in my life.

so, yeah, i have come to hate that phrase as it is usually wielded by those with their heads up their butts; judgemental jerks that wish to dengrade others to make themselves seem better.

and that is what riled me up about that one poster's attitude towards people who hadn't been able to go blue water cruising, because of their life's path. no one has the right to judge the achievements of another. you don't know the path they have walked.

you just entered the conversation because you thought my statement was defeatist. but it was nothing of the sort. it was just an attempt at adding a bit of reality...perspective, to the discussion.

i thought long and hard before i posted all of this and i deleted much of what i wrote, keeping much to myself. it's my personal business and i am not used to broadcasting it around. however, since you seem to be someone who, like myself, has struggled hard to overcome the odds, i wanted you to understand where i am coming from and what i am trying to actually say. hopefully, i have achieved that end.


----------



## captain jack

DRFerron said:


> TDW will buy everyone a round if none of you come to blows.


:laugher


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## Sal Paradise

Wow, Jack, those are some powerful and righteous words. For me the whole thread was worth it just to read that. You have a gift for writing, and as your oldest friend says - a gift for story telling too. I wish you peace in your life, and don''t measure it by house mortgages years or job status titles. Its in the positive things you do and how they affect others. FWIW I wish for someone like you on every one of my building projects.


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## captain jack

thanks. I appreciate that. it's nice to know my words have had value to you.


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## Rhapsody-NS27

> The future of the sailing world. Why are there so few young people cruising??


Here is a bit of my take on this topic.

I would love to go out cruising now. I'm 35 and my boat is paid for. Some more work needed for long distance cruising, but, I can't go anywhere. I work in the military and can't get released yet.

I think the idea that hard work now and enjoy yourself later is what is expected by society as a whole. Otherwise, you're not considered to be a major contributor to the society and economy.

so, many people get trapped in the work force, paying off student debts and doing what is expected of them and doing what is "normal" according to friends and family.

For me, my boat is not very big but I feel I could live on it easily enough. I like to keep things simple. My fiancee and I were talking recently about all the things we have to do just to get by in life with work, home, sitting in traffic, waking up early etc. She said how much she would like to live more simply like she did when she was younger. Yet, according to her, living on a boat for any amount of time is not an option.

Still, there is that sense of doing what is expected and doing what is "normal" and generally accepted. Many people, I think like to keep things well within their comfort zone.

Because many people are raised to work hard now and have fun when you're older, the sense of adventure doesn't get passed down to their children and the cycle continues. If I didn't get exposed to sailing when I was in high school, I probably would not have given it much thought myself.

Laziness probably has a part in it too. As mentioned before, people are used to instant gratification. While hard work at ones employment may be expected maybe not so much in other aspects of life.

Everyone's goals are different in what they want out of life. Personally, I think it's important to get the most out of life sooner as our lives could end at any moment. Getting the younger generations exposed to sailing could help increase participation.

If you want to see more younger folks out on the water, then go be a mentor and teach your kids, grandkids or anyone else who can stand you long enough


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## captain jack

reading back over it, I see there are too many typos, though. lol. aol likes to boot me right after I have taken a lot of time writing something, causing me to lose it all, so I tend to rush posting more than I should...before I have had enough proof reading time.


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## captain jack

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> Here is a bit of my take on this topic.
> 
> I would love to go out cruising now. I'm 35 and my boat is paid for. Some more work needed for long distance cruising, but, I can't go anywhere. I work in the military and can't get released yet.
> 
> I think the idea that hard work now and enjoy yourself later is what is expected by society as a whole. Otherwise, you're not considered to be a major contributor to the society and economy.
> 
> so, many people get trapped in the work force, paying off student debts and doing what is expected of them and doing what is "normal" according to friends and family.
> 
> For me, my boat is not very big but I feel I could live on it easily enough. I like to keep things simple. My fiancee and I were talking recently about all the things we have to do just to get by in life with work, home, sitting in traffic, waking up early etc. She said how much she would like to live more simply like she did when she was younger. Yet, according to her, living on a boat for any amount of time is not an option.
> 
> Still, there is that sense of doing what is expected and doing what is "normal" and generally accepted. Many people, I think like to keep things well within their comfort zone.
> 
> Because many people are raised to work hard now and have fun when you're older, the sense of adventure doesn't get passed down to their children and the cycle continues. If I didn't get exposed to sailing when I was in high school, I probably would not have given it much thought myself.
> 
> Laziness probably has a part in it too. As mentioned before, people are used to instant gratification. While hard work at ones employment may be expected maybe not so much in other aspects of life.
> 
> Everyone's goals are different in what they want out of life. Personally, I think it's important to get the most out of life sooner as our lives could end at any moment. Getting the younger generations exposed to sailing could help increase participation.
> 
> If you want to see more younger folks out on the water, then go be a mentor and teach your kids, grandkids or anyone else who can stand you long enough


excellent post.


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## unimacs

Lots of good perspectives here whether it's from bljones, hanna2, or captain jack.

Just a question, were there really a lot more baby boomers cruising in their 20's than the 20 year olds of today? Or is that just an assumption we have that would seem to make sense?

To me there is little doubt that the 20 year olds of today on average are starting out in more precarious financial circumstances than I did. I'm not sure what the options are for a kid in their 20s who wants to cruise but has to deal with substantial college debt. Can they get a boat and put off loan payments some how?

At the same time I think it's true that if you're a kid that's managed to get your way through college, you could probably find a way to raise the money to spend a year cruising if you wanted it bad enough. But it might mean making sacrifices and taking risks that earlier generations didn't have to, … at least not to the same extent. 

We have talked about some of the disadvantages the kids of today might have, but there are advantages too, - namely technology. And I'm not just talking about the technology involved sailing itself. The Internet is an amazing resource that not only can help you find a boat, but put you in touch with plenty of people who have done what you are setting out to do. A lot of the logistics, planning, and outfitting can be done from the comfort of your home.

Oh and good luck to you Captain Jack. I have no doubt that cruising is in your future if that's a path you choose to take. And if not, you'll be at peace with whatever you end up doing. Call me an optimist, but I think at some point a person with your work ethic, smarts, and sense of decency will be rewarded. I think in one of your posts you mentioned that some people seem to lead charmed lives. I've observed the same thing. I've also seen people get dragged down by getting entangled with people who seem to live constantly under a dark cloud. Avoid the latter if you can.


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## hannah2

First time I cruised in S. Pacific I was 21 that's in 1972 or so. 50 % were young and fifty percent were old. It seems to be about the same today, nothing has really changed. At 21 I lived on a budget and today I live on almost the same budget % wise while cruising. Unlike mr dork that thinks if you own a good boat your rich, most of us are living in a pretty tight budget. Most of us busted our butt to get where we were and that went for the 1970's when baby boomers were in their 20's, nothing has changed. work hard, save, get rid of the man and buy a boat and go sailing.


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## captain jack

i believe the thought that less younger people are cruising comes from statistcs. i will have to reread the original post, to be sure. one thing about statistcs, though, is that they can be interpreted to mean pretty much anything. plus, how did they accrue the inforation that was used to make these statistics? where was the data collected. all of that comes into play. you can never truly be sure of the accuracy of statistics. it could be much ado over nothing. 

even if less are cruising now, what about as these generations age; as they get more disposable wealth, get more time, or have just fulfilled the expectations of society and are free to do their own thing? even if less are cruising now, it does not mean that they may not go cruising later in life.


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## captain jack

the OP doesn't really say. he just states that less young people are sailing. it would be interesting to see some actual data on that.


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## aeventyr60

captain jack said:


> the OP doesn't really say. he just states that less young people are sailing. it would be interesting to see some actual data on that.


They probably just opened their eyes and looked around....not hard to see. Many you could find an APP for it?


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## northoceanbeach

It's not hard to see. And if these young people get more disposable income and go cruising later in life like you say, they won't be "young" people cruising.


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## captain jack

yeah. that's my point. but does it matter if people start cruising at 20 or 40, as long as people still sail?


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## unimacs

I think the fear is that without young people taking an interest in sailing, eventually it will fall into serious decline.

There are a number of recreational activities that experienced booms in the 70's in the U.S. that lost popularity later on including tennis and cycling.

Cycling is experiencing another boom as a method of transportation as cities look for ways to reduce car traffic. I suppose if gas got expensive enough people might take another look at sailing but it has to be made more accessible. As much as some of us might look down on the McGregor power sailors, they might be a key to what keeps sailing vital. Easy to own, easy to transport, and easy to rig. I could see better electronics playing a role in helping novices become better sailers by recommending changes in sail trim, etc.


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## JonEisberg

unimacs said:


> I think the fear is that without young people taking an interest in sailing, eventually it will fall into serious decline.


Well, as far as I can tell, the interest in actually _SAILING_ has already fallen into a serious decline - especially among those who happen to own Cruising Sailboats... 



unimacs said:


> I could see better electronics playing a role in helping novices become better sailers by recommending changes in sail trim, etc.


Yup, just the sort of thing the Sailors of the Future will need, to help keep sailing alive...

A _"Telltales App" _for their iPhone...


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## barefootnavigator

More and more I'm seeing marina's getting rid of their smaller slips. Without small slips it becomes less affordable to say pick up a nice used Cat 25. This is a cause effect of ****ty government, easy money equals easy financing on new boats. Young couple see's pretty boat at show likes easy financing and monthly payment buys boat realizes its really expensive sells boat at huge loss gives up sailing.


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## unimacs

barefootnavigator said:


> More and more I'm seeing marina's getting rid of their smaller slips. Without small slips it becomes less affordable to say pick up a nice used Cat 25. This is a cause effect of ****ty government, easy money equals easy financing on new boats. Young couple see's pretty boat at show likes easy financing and monthly payment buys boat realizes its really expensive sells boat at huge loss gives up sailing.


I think the problem is more that young couples aren't spending their money on sailing at all, not that they're buying too much boat (although I'm sure there are examples of that too).

Personally I don't think the government is to blame for sailing's decline, - though a poor economy doesn't help.

For that matter I think the economic problems go deeper than republicans vs democrats. We are responsible for our own government anyway. Personally, I think we need to start questioning whether or current economic system can succeed over time. Labor is cheaper overseas and automation is cheaper still. Unless we make some drastic changes, there simply won't be that many good paying jobs. It doesn't matter much who is in office unless it is a collection of folks willing to be much bolder than most of the politicians we've have had over the last several decades.


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## captain jack

JonEisberg said:


> Well, as far as I can tell, the interest in actually _SAILING_ has already fallen into a serious decline - especially among those who happen to own Cruising Sailboats...
> 
> Yup, just the sort of thing the Sailors of the Future will need, to help keep sailing alive...
> 
> A _"Telltales App" _for their iPhone...


lol. i thought the same thing about more advanced electronics. perhaps the last thing the human race needs is another activity we can no longer do without our machines to lead us by the hand. already, people can't drive without the car telling them where to go.


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## captain jack

unimacs said:


> I think the problem is more that young couples aren't spending their money on sailing at all, not that they're buying too much boat (although I'm sure there are examples of that too).
> 
> Personally I don't think the government is to blame for sailing's decline, - though a poor economy doesn't help.
> 
> For that matter I think the economic problems go deeper than republicans vs democrats. We are responsible for our own government anyway. Personally, I think we need to start questioning whether or current economic system can succeed over time. Labor is cheaper overseas and automation is cheaper still. Unless we make some drastic changes, there simply won't be that many good paying jobs. It doesn't matter much who is in office unless it is a collection of folks willing to be much bolder than most of the politicians we've have had over the last several decades.


yeah. the present economy is the result of protectionism and socialism ( now referred to as progressive ). and that covers both parties. love your post. you don't hear many people saying the real fact: it's our fault. we are responsible for our government. a government for, of, and by the people. this is what happenns when the people get complacent.

but, addressing the issue of this thread, i think a big issue is availability. the motorcycle industry has gone through the same thing, especially the 'cruiser' world ( focusing on HDs and their part of motorcycling ). bck in the day, motorcycles were an inexpensive form of transportation. everyone is familiar with the poor working class biker image. then, rich people started buying harleys. all the prices went up to take advantage of that new money base. now, the industry is aimed at that group and they are getting older. young people aren't buying harleys. they want cheaper, faster, and more reliable japanese bikes. and the entire harley based industry is really worried.

well, 'inexpensive' fiberglass boats took sailing out of the realm of rich yacht owners, in their wooden masterpieces, and made it available to the masses. since then, the rich have begun buying fiberglass boats. the industry has seen this and has aimed itself to get that money. it's better, in the modern view point, to sell one boat for half a mil than it is to sell 15 boats for 30k. and the prices of all the sailing supplies just go up, as ell, in an effort to grab up all the big money. now, sailing has become a sport of the rich, again. i mean, just look through the site. how many times do you see sailboats referred to as money pits. i read one post where sailing is likened to tearing up your money and throwing it overboard.

in other words, sailing is no longer avalable to the masses. don't get me wrong. there are cheaper old boats to fix up. but the masses do not have the knowledge, ability, or desire to invest that kind of work before they can enjoy their hobby. they want things 'turn key'. and you can't do that, affordably, on the wages of the masses, without major financial restructuring ( which is impoossible for some ).

all that easy money did the same to the housing market. for a few decades, now, no one has been building sensible, affordable new single family homes. it's all mc mansions. houses bigger and ore costly than most families will ever need.

it's the greed of the industry. they see easy big money and it's all they care about. $5000 for a small fiberglass dinghy! outlandish.

to 'save' sailing, the industry has to adjust it's goals. they need to start building smaller, more basic, affordable boats and then they need to actually advertise them, and sailing, to the general public. you see ads for sailboats and sailing related things in sailing magazines and never the general media. only people already interested in sailing read such publications.

if you build boats that average people can afford and then you advertise the beauty of the sailing life, in a media that will reach the masses, i think you would se a surge in the number of new sailors.

and, like oe poster said, you also need an easy, available avenue to learn how to sail.

it's all about marketing. sailing is marketing to the haves, a shrinking class, it needs to be marketed to the have a littles, too.

if all cars were aimed at the bmw crowd, you'd see a huge drop in the number of people buying cars. there is a market for those kinds of cars, but the biggest market is in chevys.

sailboats need to market to chevy people as well as BMW people.


----------



## unimacs

JonEisberg said:


> Yup, just the sort of thing the Sailors of the Future will need, to help keep sailing alive...
> 
> A _"Telltales App" _for their iPhone...




My point is that one barrier I see keeping more people from sailing is simply having no idea how to do it.

Some may try, have a bad experience and that's pretty much the end of it. It's another good reason to start people young but beyond that, I think there are things that can done to make sailing easier to learn and that could include building some smarts into the boat itself.

It could be as simple as audible hints when somebody is close to do something stupid and potentially dangerous like an accidental gybe or could be more involved like enhanced automation. These things could be turned off as the sailor gets more comfortable doing them on their own.

And there might be things that a lot of people don't mind letting the boat do on it's own. When's the last time you've seen a car with a manual choke? And as much as I like a manual transmission, most people are quite happy to do without them.

I'm not suggesting that this should replace instruction but a 4 day class only does so much. To develop confidence one needs to get out on their and I think the industry could do more to make that a better and easier experience.


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## JonEisberg

unimacs said:


> I think there are things that can done to make sailing easier to learn and that could include building some smarts into the boat itself.
> 
> It could be as simple as audible hints when somebody is close to do something stupid and potentially dangerous like an accidental gybe or could be more involved like enhanced automation.


Hmmm, sounds expensive...

Moreover, seems inherently counter-intuitive to the learning process... Like learning most any endeavor, many of the most instructive lessons are learned by _making mistakes_... Learning to sail is best done on simple, small, responsive boats where one's input can be felt and measured, and the consequences of mistakes are not too painful, or expensive... Starting out on boats sufficiently large, and sophisticated, so as to possess automated anti-gybe controls seems like a piss-poor way to learn how to sail, to me...



unimacs said:


> My point is that one barrier I see keeping more people from sailing is simply having no idea how to do it.


So? What's the problem? The water is already covered with boaters who have no clue what they're doing... 

That's the fundamental problem I always have with these 'Saving Sailing' discussions... Learning to sail has NEVER been easier than it is today, with the plethora of books, videos, sailing schools, internet discussion forums, and so on...

Seriously, if learning to sail today is still too difficult, or just _too much work_ for some, should we really be trying _harder_ to get such people out on the water?


----------



## aeventyr60

JonEisberg said:


> Hmmm, sounds expensive...
> 
> Moreover, seems inherently counter-intuitive to the learning process... Like learning most any endeavor, many of the most instructive lessons are learned by _making mistakes_... Learning to sail is best done on simple, small, responsive boats where one's input can be felt and measured, and the consequences of mistakes are not too painful, or expensive... Starting out on boats sufficiently large, and sophisticated, so as to possess automated anti-gybe controls seems like a piss-poor way to learn how to sail, to me...
> 
> So? What's the problem? The water is already covered with boaters who have no clue what they're doing...
> 
> That's the fundamental problem I always have with these 'Saving Sailing' discussions... Learning to sail has NEVER been easier than it is today, with the plethora of books, videos, sailing schools, internet discussion forums, and so on...
> 
> Seriously, if learning to sail today is still too difficult, or just _too much work_ for some, should we really be trying _harder_ to get such people out on the water?


Unless there is a smart phone attached with a dozen apps or more the sport is doomed


----------



## barefootnavigator

Whats a smart phone?


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## captain jack

unimacs said:


> My point is that one barrier I see keeping more people from sailing is simply having no idea how to do it.
> 
> Some may try, have a bad experience and that's pretty much the end of it. It's another good reason to start people young but beyond that, I think there are things that can done to make sailing easier to learn and that could include building some smarts into the boat itself.
> 
> It could be as simple as audible hints when somebody is close to do something stupid and potentially dangerous like an accidental gybe or could be more involved like enhanced automation. These things could be turned off as the sailor gets more comfortable doing them on their own.
> 
> And there might be things that a lot of people don't mind letting the boat do on it's own. When's the last time you've seen a car with a manual choke? And as much as I like a manual transmission, most people are quite happy to do without them.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that this should replace instruction but a 4 day class only does so much. To develop confidence one needs to get out on their and I think the industry could do more to make that a better and easier experience.


you do realize that the price of new boats is already pretty high, right? the cost to i mplement such technology would be outlandish. young people could never afford such boats.

besides that, doing and thinking for people doesn't make them able to do and think for themselves. it makes them dependent. notice that people who use map quest to plot out a course, as they drive, don't learn how to figure out directions on a map, for themselves. they just depend completely on mapquest or tom tom or whatever other technology is doing the thinking for them.

honestly, that's one of the worst ideas i have ever heard. there are way way too many areas in life where people have become completely dependent on technology. sailing has been an area where people have to depend on their own knowledge and ability. if you go and ruin that with technology, what's next? robot frames that carry mountain climbers up mountains?

if you want a technological answer to the question of learning to sail, you have no farther to look than stentech sail simulator 5. as a sailor, i find it to be the closest thing to sailing that doesn't involve water.


----------



## Sal Paradise

Ha.. sailing is pretty instinctive. My sunfish is way better at teaching sailing than your smart phone will ever be.


----------



## Rhapsody-NS27

captain jack said:


> what's next? robot frames that carry mountain climbers up mountains?


Hate to break it to you (actually I don't ), but they're already working on that.
Human Universal Load Carrier Trials: Armed Forces Int. News
HULC Exoskeleton Ready To Give Army Super-Human Strength


----------



## findingzzero

youmeandthed said:


> *******snip******
> 
> Any thoughts?


Waiting for an app for that!


----------



## captain jack

Rhapsody-NS27 said:


> Hate to break it to you (actually I don't ), but they're already working on that.
> Human Universal Load Carrier Trials: Armed Forces Int. News
> HULC Exoskeleton Ready To Give Army Super-Human Strength


right. i have seen that. that's not quite the visual image in my mind when i wrote that but, it does fit the bill. i was kind of thinking of a robot holding a person in it's arms, like a mother holding a little baby, and carrying the person up. but i can't argue the facts. they are probably working on machines to have sex for us, too, so we don't have to bother spending the energy to hump uke modern 'man'.


----------



## ctl411

captain jack said:


> you know, i think there is a point of misunderstanding between us. i agree, basically, with your message; that you have to work to make your life what you want it to be and amazing things are possible if you are willing to strive. i have lived my life by that idea.
> 
> but i think that there has to be some measure of reality, too. not all ends are achievable for any given starting place. and, many ends that seem impossible may be achievable, but it's possibly going to take a lot more time and effort than those standing on the outside looking in might realize.
> 
> the original post that started this side discussion, into which you entered, implied that, if anyone who wanted to go blue water cruising hadn't been able to do that, because of the realities of life, it was just that they were whiney losers that really didn't want it bad enough. i wasn't the only person to take exception to that, just, perhaps, the most verbose.
> 
> my point to that poster, the point that started all this off, was simply that you can't make that judgement. that, depending on the obstacles, the goal of blue water cruising might be impossible for some and that many, who wish to do so but haven't yet, are still working towards that goal. they still might never reach it, due the the course of life.
> 
> you can't know what is going to come your way. many people are laid low by unforseen circumstances. i mean it figuratively and litterally when i say 'laid low'.
> 
> but you can't judge those people harshly. some of us climb out of really deep pits, sometimes more than once, and overcome obstacles that many would see as impossible. many others fight hard and fall on the field of battle. you get my drift?
> 
> i agree with you. if you want something, you need to set that as your goal and do all you can to work towards it. impossible things can be possible. but, at the same time, everyone needs to be aware that they may not make it. things happen, in life. you may train hard in your martial art, arm yourself well, and step forth on the field of honor with might and vigor, only to be slain by an untrained peasant with a lucky blow. that's life. i am not saying you should not strive for the things you really want. you should. it's the striving that makes us human. it shapes our characters and teaches us. it makes us worthy. to never strive is to never be anything...to never become.
> 
> i get the impression that you think i am saying it is impossible so you shouldn't try. i'm not saying that at all. i have done a lot of 'impossible' things, in my life. i'd be the very last person to say something like that.
> 
> however, no one is right when they look at another person and deem his or her reasons for not achieving their dreams to be bogus. you can't judge another person like that. you don't know where they have been or what they may have faced.
> 
> i get upset about it because, if you look at the material evidence, i have done nothing in all my life of hard struggling.
> 
> i own no house. i rent my mom's basement. i pay more than i should for it. i could rent cheeper, where i am keeping this cal27. a lot cheaper. plus, my mom is....i hate to say it but she's a bit greedy. she overcharges me, even if i wasn't family and wasn't taking care of her and constantly doing things for her ( like rebuilding her front porch just recently ). i could move but then there would be no one to take care of my mother. she leans heavily on me. being completely honest, she has also been a very harmful element throughout my life. but she is my mother. it is the duty of a child to care for their parents. so, i do. it started out as a temporary stop over during the last crash my life had and i, now, stay because my mom needs me. she makes me crazy. it costs me too much in rent. i have to have storage for much of my belongings due to space, which also costs me. but i can not abandon her, either.
> 
> i drive a beat up pick up that was going to be junked from the work site, where i was the assisstant to the superintendent ( highly underpaid for what i was doing but glad, in this economy, just to have a job that was secure ). they saw an opportunity to get a charity deduction, instead of a loss, and have a back up work truck for the site. i only had my chopper, at the time. i was climbing out of a huge financial cave-in. they offered me the truck, for free, with the stipulation that, should the need arise, i would use the truck as the site truck. there was a lot of paperwork so they could get their charitable deduction. so, i did what i am getting ready to do with this boat, for that truck. i put a lot of hours into it, and parts money, and i got it going.
> 
> i am, generally, broke and living hand to mouth, as it were. my shoes are worn out. i never have money to do anything. after working my butt off since i was 13, and i am now 43, i am no better off than when i was just leaving home, at 18. worse, actually. now, i am haunted by the time. at this stage of life i am 'supposed' to have a house, a nice car, a wife and 2.5 children, a growing retirement fund. i have none of these. i have a number of people depending on me to save their bacon, on a regular basis, and i have a nice chopper that i built. and i am running out of time.
> 
> oh, and i now have 3 old boats. only the holiday20 is worth anything, at this point. the dinghy is worth something to me, personally, but it has no monetary value. and the 'new' boat needs a lot of work. but, in a effort to be honest, i have to list the boats as something i have to show for my efforts.
> 
> you could look at my life and judge me to be one of these losers that just didn't try hard enough. but then, unlike my friends who know me, you wouldn't really have any idea what i have achieved. while struggling to pull my butt out of the hole, i have always given to others. i have been a priest, to many. i have taught college kids medieval combat. i have put my time and effort to helping countless orther people. i built that chopper on a 4X4 table in a stone driveway while i was living in an unheated garage. i have worked my way to the most depended on and valuable employee over and over again; constantly having to prove my worth. i have won the respect and admiration of those that have known me, professionally and personally , despite my, often terrible, financial situation. and i have overcome outrageous hurdles to get to the nowhere i have gotten to. life keeps kicking me in the face and i keep getting back up and saying F you to life and starting back up again. and along the way, i never forget to strive and work for higher purpose; to do what i can to advance my fellow man.
> 
> one of my oldest friends has said that if i were to publish a book of my life, i'd have to catagorize it as fiction because no one would believe it. he's right. the stories i could tell...
> 
> and, through it all, i am still an optimistic person. i smile and joke around constantly. as the Havamal says," glad and wholesome should the hero be, until his dying day."
> 
> and, yeah, over the years, i have had a lot of people that have had lives that went their way, at every step, throw the words " life is what you make it" at me. people who know nothing about what i have faced and overcome. people who did not know what it means to really struggle. who don't know what it is like to have all of your achievements ripped from you time and again, through no fault or doing of your own. i may not have the material things that they have but my actual achievements far surpass anything those people have ever done, in their lives. not all achievements are readily visible to a passing glance.
> 
> but i had obviously not tried hard enough because life is what you make it and if you really want something you will get it, if you work hard enough. i must have liked to live in such poverty and didn't really want to have more in my life.
> 
> so, yeah, i have come to hate that phrase as it is usually wielded by those with their heads up their butts; judgemental jerks that wish to dengrade others to make themselves seem better.
> 
> and that is what riled me up about that one poster's attitude towards people who hadn't been able to go blue water cruising, because of their life's path. no one has the right to judge the achievements of another. you don't know the path they have walked.
> 
> you just entered the conversation because you thought my statement was defeatist. but it was nothing of the sort. it was just an attempt at adding a bit of reality...perspective, to the discussion.
> 
> i thought long and hard before i posted all of this and i deleted much of what i wrote, keeping much to myself. it's my personal business and i am not used to broadcasting it around. however, since you seem to be someone who, like myself, has struggled hard to overcome the odds, i wanted you to understand where i am coming from and what i am trying to actually say. hopefully, i have achieved that end.


Get the book "boundaries".


----------



## christian.hess

captain jack said:


> i believe the thought that less younger people are cruising comes from statistcs. i will have to reread the original post, to be sure. one thing about statistcs, though, is that they can be interpreted to mean pretty much anything. plus, how did they accrue the inforation that was used to make these statistics? where was the data collected. all of that comes into play. you can never truly be sure of the accuracy of statistics. it could be much ado over nothing.
> 
> even if less are cruising now, what about as these generations age; as they get more disposable wealth, get more time, or have just fulfilled the expectations of society and are free to do their own thing? even if less are cruising now, it does not mean that they may not go cruising later in life.


I havent read the whole thread but I feel the need to quote this....

there are positively 100 percent sure less young people cruising now than say in the 60s or 70s (or before the advent of the internet...)when the solo sailing and around the world boom started becoming a sport that inspired many to set sail.

not to mention the hippie notion of travel...good or bad or whatever you may call them hippies actually did travel and sail, and live and work on boats in a frugal yet inspiring way...

when I was starting to cruise I did so after graduating early from high school, I was 17 and left california to go "home" that was el salvador,on my leaking but restored h28...my first vehicle was a sailboat, not a car!

the looks from teachers, students etc was baffling...the internet and all its associated hooplah had them so tied up that they had no freaking idea that you could do this, nor that there were people that had already done this at a young age generations ago...

I clearly remember dove being my first sailing book, gifted by my grandfather, then came tania aebi, then other books of renowned sailors, I read them all, from chichester to motissier to knox johnston...the roths, the pardeys later on, etc...

I still beleive to this day that the internet has stupified the masses WHILE improving and encouraging those that already had the feel or BUG to learn more...

I know its a very high up kind of remark but its true

there is absolutely no interest today in reading about other peoples adventures, finding unchartered lands, etc...in young people, those young sailors are for the most part racers, in clubs...the ones that sail and cruise are less than 1%.

the amount of times I laugh and cry at the same time nowadays when I see my generation go out to dinner, all on the iphone or stupid blackberries texting eachother, AT THE TABLE like they are in some sort of alterior stupid land blabbing away tweets about what they have done(which is nothing btw) makes me cringe!

im 32, and I have a 5 year old cracked cellphone that barely rings...thats considered stupid now, whereas reading and travelling are considered weird and dumb things to do now...

I dont speak for all of modern society but a huge percentage of it...

in any case I PREFER that less people cruise and travel and that sailing or cruising is not mainstream or as mainstream as it should be...why because the masses always always take away joy and the pristine beauty of the lands and places I want to see( abit egotistical I know, BUT think aout it) masses kill nature...its a fact.

if the pyramids in egypt for example had less people I would of been fascinated when I saw them...in fact the best part of the pyramids was the sunrise drive to them in a cab...I rememeber it being so impressive and serene to look at...as soon as I got to the base I cried inside.

same would apply to cruising and sailing destinations...

thats just me though...jajaja

peace guys


----------



## unimacs

Sal Paradise said:


> Ha.. sailing is pretty instinctive. My sunfish is way better at teaching sailing than your smart phone will ever be.


Clearly my genius is lost on you people, but that's what I get for thinking outside the box. 

Sailing seems instinctive to you and to a certain extent to me since I learned how at a young age and have been doing it off and on for awhile.

It isn't instinctive to everybody. I spent some time sitting in sailboats this summer with people who had little or no sailing experience. Something as simple and as critical to sailing as knowing which way the wind is coming from isn't always obvious, - especially on a small lake where the wind shifts on a regular basis. Lots of big boats already have this, but something that clearly showed the newbie the orientation of the boat to the wind would be a tremendous help. Yes, telltales will show apparent wind which is arguably more important but actual vs apparent takes awhile to get a feel for. Something that shows both is helpful, especially if it could do it at the same time without having to fumble to change modes.

A "sailing by the lee" or accidental gybe warning indicator wouldn't be hard to add to the electronics that are available on lots of boats. Most of what's needed is already there. It might already exist. Like all technology, it can trickle down over time.

I don't have time to make a hugely long post but if any of you are divers and have been doing it for awhile, you probably know how dive computers have tremendously simplified dive planning and instruction. There are all kinds of alarms built in to them that people can turn off as they gain experience. The use of dive tables is barely taught anymore and has been replaced by dive computer instruction.

And to be clear, I'm not talking about smart phone apps. 

This will probably ruffle some feathers, but I think there is a certain contingent that don't want sailing to be easy. The ability to sail is like a badge of honor for them.


----------



## christian.hess

I was a sailing instructor for a brief period of time before getting married have a kid etc...and the above is simply true.

sailing is not a manistream activity, never will be...not only is it genetic(for the most part) and passed on from generations to generations..some poeple just cant learn the basics...

that doesnt mean they are dumb or cant eventually learn but they dont have the gene

by gene I mean stuff like can you feel the wind, do you instinctively move the tiller to get a better angle

stuff like that

here in el salvador there is a huge lack of knowledge about what even a sailbaot is...some people still cant grasp why sailboats dont constantly tip over(keel counterweight)

they are so afraid of going on a boat that they are paralyzed with fear, why? cause people drown all the time down here in pangas that get full of people on vacation...that fear gene is passed along generation to generation as well

the non swim gene is passed along too

anyone who denies this really hasnt had a chance to really see other humans in action! jajaja

we all like to see the world from our point of view...thing is its reciprocal...mountaineers and people who live in high elevation look at beach people like thet are aliens...city people cant accept that there is another lifestyle besides the tram, underground and tall buildings until they take the decision to travel...

people out in the country cant imagine what city life is REALLY like until they try it...

it is what it is...same for sailing


----------



## Sal Paradise

You are right unimacs. There is a place for some kind of sensor/computer to optimize sailing performance and make recommendations based on conditions. We use our GPS like this sometimes, making adjustments to sails and then seeing the increase on the GPS. We couldn't tell by eye or feel if we were really doing any good. 

I just thought of it as a more advanced thing to help you get better perfomance, rather than as a tool to teach a total noob to sail. .


----------



## unimacs

JonEisberg said:


> So? What's the problem? The water is already covered with boaters who have no clue what they're doing...
> 
> That's the fundamental problem I always have with these 'Saving Sailing' discussions... Learning to sail has NEVER been easier than it is today, with the plethora of books, videos, sailing schools, internet discussion forums, and so on...
> 
> Seriously, if learning to sail today is still too difficult, or just _too much work_ for some, should we really be trying _harder_ to get such people out on the water?


That's a valid question. Maybe the right answer is we just have to accept that fewer people are going to be sailing as time goes on and live with the consequences, -both good and bad.

Sailing can remain more or less as it is and fewer people will take it up because there are other activities that take less time commitment.

Or the industry could take a hard look at the whole process of becoming a sailor and ask, "How can we make this easier ?" And my guess is that in order to really do that effectively, you need non-sailors involved. Then the industry needs to be prepared to be scoffed at by traditionalists for what they are attempting to do.

Sure, there are plenty of resources available to help the newbie sailer compared to years passed, but sailing itself, and the skills one needs to master (and the tools that help them get there) haven't really changed at all, - except for navigation.


----------



## casioqv

christian.hess said:


> peace guys


Great post Christian, I feel the same way.

I also feel alienated from the other people my age (late 20s), as it's like we're from different planets. I don't follow news, celebrities, or sports and have never heard of the stuff they care about... and conversely they've never heard of the ancient mariners and rigging skills I spend my time learning about.

The only people I can usually relate to are engineers and mariners twice my age or older.

I do however also appreciate that since these things are so unpopular, it's a way to experience something other than the endless crowds, lines, and rules of Southern California. The population density here is really out of control, but just sailing out to an offshore island escapes all of that.


----------



## unimacs

casioqv said:


> The only people I can usually relate to are engineers and mariners twice my age or older.


This is completely unscientific but something I noticed about the folks in my sailing club is that a good percentage of them work in technical fields.

Maybe that's a coincidence but I think there might be more to it than that. Perhaps there is a clue there as to why not as many people are taking up sailing as have in years past.


----------



## christian.hess

in general my best friends are all older than me...my biggest friends and heartfelt companions will always be the spanish couple that took me halfway round the world on their boat...

the debt I have to older generations that inspired me will hopefully make me do the same to whatever younger generation that comes..or for now my newborn I guess!

funny how life is huh?

jeje


----------



## unimacs

I know this a thread focused on cruising, but most of my sailing as a kid was done on a Laser. After going from that to windsurfers I took an all too long break from regular sailing. 

One of the things that I have been surprised at since my recent return is the fact that the same small boats that were being sailed 30 or 40 years ago are still being made today. Whether it's Lasers or Sunfish or the MC scows that my club sails.

On the one hand I find that very cool. In our throwaway society I can find an old boat and go out there and race it against the brand new ones and they are fundamentally the same.

On the other hand it seems like small boat design has stagnated. Did we really reach the pinnacle of small boat design 40 or 50 years ago? I know Hobie has created new family oriented small boats, and I'm sure there are others. But it's almost as if small boat manufacturers are afraid to do anything new and instead count on the repeat business of one-design racers to survive. I don't think that's going to be a successful strategy in the long run.


----------



## Donna_F

unimacs said:


> ...
> On the other hand it seems like small boat design has stagnated. Did we really reach the pinnacle of small boat design 40 or 50 years ago? I know Hobie has created new family oriented small boats, and I'm sure there are others. But it's almost as if small boat manufacturers are afraid to do anything new and instead count on the repeat business of one-design racers to survive. I don't think that's going to be a successful strategy in the long run.


For boats that size, what would you suggest that they change in order to survive another 40-50 years?


----------



## unimacs

DRFerron said:


> For boats that size, what would you suggest that they change in order to survive another 40-50 years?


I'll list a a few ideas at the end of the post. But really what I think is needed is for the industry or someone outside the industry to ask people who might be interested in sailing why they've never taken it up. And they should ask people new to the activity what is was that they found the most difficult about getting started. In other words, what are the barriers to sailing?

To me it's just very interesting and maybe telling that the nearest place to me that teaches ASA 101 uses Pearson Ensigns. Further, kids are often taught in Optis which were designed in 1947 or 1960 depending on how you look at it. I think it's fair to say that part of the design goal was simply ease of building as opposed to something that sails well.

Do you think ski schools are using 50 year old designs for their skis? Of course not. Now there are some inherent differences, - skis get beat up and need to be replaced far more frequently than boats do. So naturally ski schools are going to have newer equipment. Still, for something that is essentially two boards strapped to your feet, skis have evolved quite a bit and in ways that actually make skiing easier. Why haven't sailboats?

Here's something else: There's a whole thread devoted to the topic of whether sailing is sexist or not. Without getting into that discussion lets assume for the moment that it's true. For whatever reason sailing is something that men participate in more than women. Women have a lot more buying power than they did 50 years ago. Other industries have figured this out and adapted. Has sailing?

*A few ideas:*

As I mentioned in earlier an earlier, one approach would be to make the boats smarter. For example. Instead of having the new sailer trying to remember how to tell which direction the wind is coming from, put clear indicators on the boat in plain view. Those kinds of electronics are available on big boats, but not day sailers. And I would say the designs could be better/easier to read and use.

Another would be to make boats lighter and easier to handle both on and off the water. Laptops are continually getting lighter. Bikes are continually getting lighter. And I know some sailboats are as well but we seem to be stuck with these old designs.

Make the rigging easier. I know, you'd think sticking a mast in a hole is about the simplest type of rigging possible, but muscling a Laser mast into the boat isn't always the easiest task. Anyway, it takes too much time to get a sailboat ready to go.


----------



## captain jack

christian.hess said:


> I havent read the whole thread but I feel the need to quote this....
> 
> there are positively 100 percent sure less young people cruising now than say in the 60s or 70s (or before the advent of the internet...)when the solo sailing and around the world boom started becoming a sport that inspired many to set sail.
> 
> not to mention the hippie notion of travel...good or bad or whatever you may call them hippies actually did travel and sail, and live and work on boats in a frugal yet inspiring way...
> 
> when I was starting to cruise I did so after graduating early from high school, I was 17 and left california to go "home" that was el salvador,on my leaking but restored h28...my first vehicle was a sailboat, not a car!
> 
> the looks from teachers, students etc was baffling...the internet and all its associated hooplah had them so tied up that they had no freaking idea that you could do this, nor that there were people that had already done this at a young age generations ago...
> 
> I clearly remember dove being my first sailing book, gifted by my grandfather, then came tania aebi, then other books of renowned sailors, I read them all, from chichester to motissier to knox johnston...the roths, the pardeys later on, etc...
> 
> I still beleive to this day that the internet has stupified the masses WHILE improving and encouraging those that already had the feel or BUG to learn more...
> 
> I know its a very high up kind of remark but its true
> 
> there is absolutely no interest today in reading about other peoples adventures, finding unchartered lands, etc...in young people, those young sailors are for the most part racers, in clubs...the ones that sail and cruise are less than 1%.
> 
> the amount of times I laugh and cry at the same time nowadays when I see my generation go out to dinner, all on the iphone or stupid blackberries texting eachother, AT THE TABLE like they are in some sort of alterior stupid land blabbing away tweets about what they have done(which is nothing btw) makes me cringe!
> 
> im 32, and I have a 5 year old cracked cellphone that barely rings...thats considered stupid now, whereas reading and travelling are considered weird and dumb things to do now...
> 
> I dont speak for all of modern society but a huge percentage of it...
> 
> in any case I PREFER that less people cruise and travel and that sailing or cruising is not mainstream or as mainstream as it should be...why because the masses always always take away joy and the pristine beauty of the lands and places I want to see( abit egotistical I know, BUT think aout it) masses kill nature...its a fact.
> 
> if the pyramids in egypt for example had less people I would of been fascinated when I saw them...in fact the best part of the pyramids was the sunrise drive to them in a cab...I rememeber it being so impressive and serene to look at...as soon as I got to the base I cried inside.
> 
> same would apply to cruising and sailing destinations...
> 
> thats just me though...jajaja
> 
> peace guys


BRAVO! point on.


----------



## captain jack

unimacs said:


> Clearly my genius is lost on you people, but that's what I get for thinking outside the box.
> 
> Sailing seems instinctive to you and to a certain extent to me since I learned how at a young age and have been doing it off and on for awhile.
> 
> It isn't instinctive to everybody. I spent some time sitting in sailboats this summer with people who had little or no sailing experience. Something as simple and as critical to sailing as knowing which way the wind is coming from isn't always obvious, - especially on a small lake where the wind shifts on a regular basis. Lots of big boats already have this, but something that clearly showed the newbie the orientation of the boat to the wind would be a tremendous help. Yes, telltales will show apparent wind which is arguably more important but actual vs apparent takes awhile to get a feel for. Something that shows both is helpful, especially if it could do it at the same time without having to fumble to change modes.
> 
> A "sailing by the lee" or accidental gybe warning indicator wouldn't be hard to add to the electronics that are available on lots of boats. Most of what's needed is already there. It might already exist. Like all technology, it can trickle down over time.
> 
> I don't have time to make a hugely long post but if any of you are divers and have been doing it for awhile, you probably know how dive computers have tremendously simplified dive planning and instruction. There are all kinds of alarms built in to them that people can turn off as they gain experience. The use of dive tables is barely taught anymore and has been replaced by dive computer instruction.
> 
> And to be clear, I'm not talking about smart phone apps.
> 
> This will probably ruffle some feathers, but I think there is a certain contingent that don't want sailing to be easy. The ability to sail is like a badge of honor for them.


dude. you are right in what you say. 100%. not that i agree with your solution; just your appraisal.

sailing shouldn't be made idiot friendly. i teach medieval combat. all true combat is actually simple. complex moves look good on TV but, in the crisis of combat, they are ineffective. from my experience, there are some people that can not learn to be good martial artists. no matter how they try, they are lacking something it takes to do it. not everyone is cut out for every activity. honestly, some people should not sail. they are a risk to themselves and anyone on their boat. just like some people should not ride motorcycles. that's life.

most of my time sailing has been on lakes. yes, the wind can be tricky, shifty, and hard to read. but, if you honestly can't learn to read the wind, you should not sail. i never put a telltale on either of my boats til this summer...and that's just because i had a piece of yarn that belonged to someone special, to me, so i tied it to my jib stay. and i learned to read the wind like a pro. it can be done. you don't need a machine to do it for you. when people have machines to do stuff for them, they never bother to learn how to dop it for themselves.

i will agree with you, i am sure some of us don't want sailing to be idiot friendly. it's not a badge of honor ( although learning to sail well is an accomplishment that people should be proud of ). it's that, as the above post points out, when you open something beautiful up to those who are not worthy of it, you lessen it and ruin it. yes. i said worthy. i taught myself to sail from books and just going out to try it. i am sure lots of other people can say similar things. if you have not the initiative or the dedication to stick with it to learn, then sailing doesn't need you. if you are just one of those people that can't learn to sail ( as previously noted ), it's not safe for you to sail.

and, for the record, machines are a big part of the problem with the world. what ws it you said?

" if any of you are divers and have been doing it for awhile, you probably know how dive computers have tremendously simplified dive planning and instruction. There are all kinds of alarms built in to them that people can turn off as they gain experience. The use of dive tables is barely taught anymore and has been replaced by dive computer instruction. "

is that a good thing? what if these people who only know the computerized way of doing it were in a situation where there wasn't a computer to think for them? they'd be screwed. it's just like calculators. many schools don't even teach the times tables anymore because of machines to do math for us. but i bet you can guess what happens when one of these kids needs to do math and a machine isn't available. personally, i use math all the time, to fabricate, and i refuse to use a calculator. they turn your brain to mush. what about GPS? how many people, in the GPS generations, would be able to find their own butts without their GPS? none of them can even read a bloody map, for pete's sake.

yeah, at face value the idea of 'simplifying' something by making machines, that can think for you, might sound like a great idea. and it might, as you say, bring in the younger generations. but at what cost? these machines and our dependency on them is turning a species that set sail in open longships, over uncharted oceans, into pathetic helpless weaklings and idiots. that's not a good thing.

i know we live in the era of spreading the wealth, 'fairness', and schools that train for mediocrity ( better to pull down the hard workers and the intelligent than to make the lazy or stupid feel bad about themselves ), but you have to ask what kind of people we are sending into the future? our forefathers, who learned to sail the seas before us, would be ashamed of what we are becoming.

now, you don't have to have a teacher or read books to learn to sail. you can just surf through youtube. there are tons of instructional videos, there. there is plenty of ways for people to learn to sail.

trying to gat machines to think for yung sailors, so they don't have to learn to be good sailors is actually not thinking outside of the box. it's firmly in the box of modern thought. thinking that people should actually larn to sail, as generations before them did, is outside of the modern box.

i wonder, how many cruisers that have GPS actually learned tyo navigate, the real way, and how many just rely on the GPS? has GPS actually created any skilled navigators or just people dependent on GPS?


----------



## captain jack

christian.hess said:


> I was a sailing instructor for a brief period of time before getting married have a kid etc...and the above is simply true.
> 
> sailing is not a manistream activity, never will be...not only is it genetic(for the most part) and passed on from generations to generations..some poeple just cant learn the basics...
> 
> that doesnt mean they are dumb or cant eventually learn but they dont have the gene
> 
> by gene I mean stuff like can you feel the wind, do you instinctively move the tiller to get a better angle
> 
> stuff like that
> 
> here in el salvador there is a huge lack of knowledge about what even a sailbaot is...some people still cant grasp why sailboats dont constantly tip over(keel counterweight)
> 
> they are so afraid of going on a boat that they are paralyzed with fear, why? cause people drown all the time down here in pangas that get full of people on vacation...that fear gene is passed along generation to generation as well
> 
> the non swim gene is passed along too
> 
> anyone who denies this really hasnt had a chance to really see other humans in action! jajaja
> 
> we all like to see the world from our point of view...thing is its reciprocal...mountaineers and people who live in high elevation look at beach people like thet are aliens...city people cant accept that there is another lifestyle besides the tram, underground and tall buildings until they take the decision to travel...
> 
> people out in the country cant imagine what city life is REALLY like until they try it...
> 
> it is what it is...same for sailing


yeah. i can't swim. good thing i can sail. being in sailboats might be risky, otherwise. 

i couldn't agree with you,more. some people are born to be sailors and some are born for land...or at least power boats.


----------



## captain jack

DRFerron said:


> For boats that size, what would you suggest that they change in order to survive another 40-50 years?


one thing might be to make a simple, safe, fun to sail family dinghy that isn't just anothder race dinghy. i think the sailing industry is too race oriented. there is more to sailing than getting around the boeys fast.


----------



## unimacs

captain jack said:


> and, for the record, machines are a big part of the problem with the world. what ws it you said?
> 
> " if any of you are divers and have been doing it for awhile, you probably know how dive computers have tremendously simplified dive planning and instruction. There are all kinds of alarms built in to them that people can turn off as they gain experience. The use of dive tables is barely taught anymore and has been replaced by dive computer instruction. "
> 
> is that a good thing? what if these people who only know the computerized way of doing it were in a situation where there wasn't a computer to think for them? they'd be screwed.


I guess I have a different philosophy but I understand where you are coming from. Part of the enjoyment of sailing for me comes from being able to harness the power of the wind and use it to move the boat where I want it to go. The more the boat does and the less the sailor does, the farther you are away from that feeling.

At the same time I think a lot more people could enjoy sailing than actually do and I think part of the reason is the time it takes to learn how. Some may end up quitting who could have ended up being very good sailers. I'd really prefer it if less people used power boats or personal watercraft and took up sailing instead.

As for dive computers, if one quits working, you head back to the surface and you are done for the day. At least that's the recommended thing to do. It would suck. It does't matter if you remember how to use tables or not. The information about how long you spent at a particular depth and when is now gone and that is critical information for you to know for any consecutive dives.

So given that risk, why use a computer and not a dive table or wheel? The short answer is that because a dive computer can record the time you spend at a given depth and perform calculations in real time so you can stay underwater longer without having to follow a rigid plan.

The point of diving is to enjoy the underwater world (or do your job), not to spend time reading tables and doing calculations. I'm sure there were people who enjoyed that aspect of it and took pride in being good at it. For most people it was just a PITA.

So what is the point of sailing? It's probably not the same for everybody and I think there's room for more people to enjoy it.


----------



## christian.hess

unimacs said:


> I'll list a a few ideas at the end of the post. But really what I think is needed is for the industry or someone outside the industry to ask people who might be interested in sailing why they've never taken it up. And they should ask people new to the activity what is was that they found the most difficult about getting started. In other words, what are the barriers to sailing?
> 
> To me it's just very interesting and maybe telling that the nearest place to me that teaches ASA 101 uses Pearson Ensigns. Further, kids are often taught in Optis which were designed in 1947 or 1960 depending on how you look at it. I think it's fair to say that part of the design goal was simply ease of building as opposed to something that sails well.
> 
> Do you think ski schools are using 50 year old designs for their skis? Of course not. Now there are some inherent differences, - skis get beat up and need to be replaced far more frequently than boats do. So naturally ski schools are going to have newer equipment. Still, for something that is essentially two boards strapped to your feet, skis have evolved quite a bit and in ways that actually make skiing easier. Why haven't sailboats?
> 
> Here's something else: There's a whole thread devoted to the topic of whether sailing is sexist or not. Without getting into that discussion lets assume for the moment that it's true. For whatever reason sailing is something that men participate in more than women. Women have a lot more buying power than they did 50 years ago. Other industries have figured this out and adapted. Has sailing?
> 
> *A few ideas:*
> 
> As I mentioned in earlier an earlier, one approach would be to make the boats smarter. For example. Instead of having the new sailer trying to remember how to tell which direction the wind is coming from, put clear indicators on the boat in plain view. Those kinds of electronics are available on big boats, but not day sailers. And I would say the designs could be better/easier to read and use.
> 
> Another would be to make boats lighter and easier to handle both on and off the water. Laptops are continually getting lighter. Bikes are continually getting lighter. And I know some sailboats are as well but we seem to be stuck with these old designs.
> 
> Make the rigging easier. I know, you'd think sticking a mast in a hole is about the simplest type of rigging possible, but muscling a Laser mast into the boat isn't always the easiest task. Anyway, it takes too much time to get a sailboat ready to go.


here here to this

I too sailed lasers as a kid and as a sailing instructor down here

LASERS are NOT easy to rig correctly per isaf when you are new to sailing...

for example which end of the mainsheet goes first and simple stuff like the vang can be daunting at times..its not as easy say a vanguard or hobie etc...

optis in my opinion are still the best for kids...racing them is a whole nother planet...its BIG time in europe and south america, el toros in the states are the marcomi version as we all know


----------



## unimacs

christian.hess said:


> here here to this
> 
> I too sailed lasers as a kid and as a sailing instructor down here
> 
> LASERS are NOT easy to rig correctly per isaf when you are new to sailing...
> 
> for example which end of the mainsheet goes first and simple stuff like the vang can be daunting at times..its not as easy say a vanguard or hobie etc...
> 
> optis in my opinion are still the best for kids...racing them is a whole nother planet...its BIG time in europe and south america, el toros in the states are the marcomi version as we all know


I guess one obvious thing would be for the sailing industry to talk to instructors. What do people have the most difficulty with? What takes them the longest to grasp? Why do people give up?

There are always going to be people who take to something quicker than others. There will also be people that learn very quickly that sailing is not for them. I'm not suggesting that it is for everybody.


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## captain jack

i still think sailing doesn't need robo-sailboats. 

it needs boats aimed at average income novices. simple, safe, fun sailboats. sailboats you comfortably sit in, not on. more tech doesn't make for lower prices, just the opposite. the cost of a new laser will already buy you a really nice used car. imagine what one would cost once it gets all star wars'd up. that is not going to encourage average people to buy a sailboat and learn the art of sailing. i think the boat manufactures spend way too much time focusing on the race crowd and the high dollar cruisers.

the premise towards robo-sailboats is that learning to sailo is too daunting. what is more daunting? a ton of computer crap to learn to use or one rope and a tiller? if you want to make sailing less daunting, wouldn't simpler be better?

adverise in non-sailing enthusiast media. there are some awesome sailing videos on youtube; videos that really make sailing look exciting and fun, not like a bunch of old dudes with money sitting in slow boats. manufactures and sailing schools and clubs need to use footage like that, or footage showing families out enjoying a fn day of sailing, in ads in the mass media. if you only advetise sailing and sailboats in sailing publications, how do you suppose you are going to get the word out to people who don't sail. those people don't buy sailing publications.

go to youtube. look up 'europe sailing in heavy wind', then tell me if that isn't the perfect ad for sailing. if you had a tv ad, using that video, you'd make sailing look more exciting than sex. well, maybe not that exciting, but you know what i mean. that would draw all those skateboarders and snow boarders and others that are into extreme sports and looking for some excitement.


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## captain jack

unimacs said:


> I guess one obvious thing would be for the sailing industry to talk to instructors. What do people have the most difficulty with? What takes them the longest to grasp? Why do people give up?
> 
> There are always going to be people who take to something quicker than others. There will also be people that learn very quickly that sailing is not for them. I'm not suggesting that it is for everybody.


that is a great idea. fed back from the people in the field, so to speak, is the best guide to product development.

i hope manufacturers are looking at this thread. they are the ones best able to guide the future of the idustry.


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## captain jack

unimacs said:


> I'd really prefer it if less people used power boats or personal watercraft and took up sailing instead.


absolutely. mother nature would probavly be happier, too.


----------



## captain jack

christian.hess said:


> here here to this
> 
> I too sailed lasers as a kid and as a sailing instructor down here
> 
> LASERS are NOT easy to rig correctly per isaf when you are new to sailing...
> 
> for example which end of the mainsheet goes first and simple stuff like the vang can be daunting at times..its not as easy say a vanguard or hobie etc...
> 
> optis in my opinion are still the best for kids...racing them is a whole nother planet...its BIG time in europe and south america, el toros in the states are the marcomi version as we all know


that's what i am saying. lasers aren't really a beginner boat. they are a boat that is focused or racing, not introducing new people to the fun of sailing.


----------



## unimacs

captain jack said:


> i still think sailing doesn't need robo-sailboats.
> 
> it needs boats aimed at average income novices. simple, safe, fun sailboats. sailboats you comfortably sit in, not on. more tech doesn't make for lower prices, just the opposite. the cost of a new laser will already buy you a really nice used car. imagine what one would cost once it gets all star wars'd up. that is not going to encourage average people to buy a sailboat and learn the art of sailing. i think the boat manufactures spend way too much time focusing on the race crowd and the high dollar cruisers.
> 
> the premise towards robo-sailboats is that learning to sailo is too daunting. what is more daunting? a ton of computer crap to learn to use or one rope and a tiller? if you want to make sailing less daunting, wouldn't simpler be better?
> 
> adverise in non-sailing enthusiast media. there are some awesome sailing videos on youtube; videos that really make sailing look exciting and fun, not like a bunch of old dudes with money sitting in slow boats. manufactures and sailing schools and clubs need to use footage like that, or footage showing families out enjoying a fn day of sailing, in ads in the mass media. if you only advetise sailing and sailboats in sailing publications, how do you suppose you are going to get the word out to people who don't sail. those people don't buy sailing publications.
> 
> go to youtube. look up 'europe sailing in heavy wind', then tell me if that isn't the perfect ad for sailing. if you had a tv ad, using that video, you'd make sailing look more exciting than sex. well, maybe not that exciting, but you know what i mean. that would draw all those skateboarders and snow boarders and others that are into extreme sports and looking for some excitement.


I'll admit to not being entirely convinced myself that robo-sailboats are the way to go but I believe one could build a better boat than a Laser with some added electronics for less than what a new Laser costs. To me a Laser is outrageously expensive for what it is. Part of the problem is racing and the fact that manufacturers pay royalties for these old designs.

I like the one design concept when it comes to racing but it seems to have had some unintended consequences. New designs have a hard time gaining any traction.

Further I agree with you that a bad and complex computer interface is worse than none.

And I really agree with you that marketing to the choir is not very effective at growing the sailing community. More could be done to make sailing look appealing and attainable to those who don't sail. And that might go back to the boats themselves.

I know a lot of us have a soft spot for Optis, but do kids look at an Opti and try to convince their parents to get one? I would bet that the vast majority of the kids sailing an Opti already have parents who sail.


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## unimacs

Another idea I just thought of for how to improve small boats:

Brakes 

Seriously.

Maybe even small electric thrusters for cheating. Docking area a little crowded? Not comfortable backing a boat using just the wind? Get away from the crowd, then hoist the sail just like the big boats do. The thrusters could be set to automatically hold the boat into the wind.

I swear one of the most difficult things we have to learn in the club is how to leave from and return to the often crowded dock without ramming the dock or hitting another boat. Same is true of maneuvering through the mooring field. It creates a lot of stress in the new sailors and even some of the experienced ones depending on conditions.

Heresy. I know. I can only imagine the crap I would have to take from my fellow sailers as I motored my augmented MC Scow back to the dock. Probably better than the screaming that would ensue if someone's pristine gelcoat were to get scuffed up in a collision.

I suppose the low tech version would be a paddle, but lots of people not so good at that either.


----------



## christian.hess

unimacs said:


> I guess one obvious thing would be for the sailing industry to talk to instructors. What do people have the most difficulty with? What takes them the longest to grasp? Why do people give up?
> 
> There are always going to be people who take to something quicker than others. There will also be people that learn very quickly that sailing is not for them. I'm not suggesting that it is for everybody.


ISAF is very good at this, we had an argntinian pro sailor as well as an ISAF trainer come down and teach our courses...I was at the time the national trainer for el salvador...I managed to get a level2 trainer certification....

ISAF is big on standardization across the globe...

they are VERY efficient and really love their teaching attitude and process...ther is much focus on team work, level playing field, etc...

anywhoo


----------



## captain jack

unimacs said:


> Another idea I just thought of for how to improve small boats:
> 
> Brakes
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> Maybe even small electric thrusters for cheating. Docking area a little crowded? Not comfortable backing a boat using just the wind? Get away from the crowd, then hoist the sail just like the big boats do. The thrusters could be set to automatically hold the boat into the wind.
> 
> I swear one of the most difficult things we have to learn in the club is how to leave from and return to the often crowded dock without ramming the dock or hitting another boat. Same is true of maneuvering through the mooring field. It creates a lot of stress in the new sailors and even some of the experienced ones depending on conditions.
> 
> Heresy. I know. I can only imagine the crap I would have to take from my fellow sailers as I motored my augmented MC Scow back to the dock. Probably better than the screaming that would ensue if someone's pristine gelcoat were to get scuffed up in a collision.
> 
> I suppose the low tech version would be a paddle, but lots of people not so good at that either.


lol. yeah. i had to luff up, in my dinghy, this summer so i could show an older couple, who obviously had no idea, hw to row. such a seemingly simple thing. people are really out of touch.


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## darksails

That sounds about right haha. Just set a course on the iphone and forget the rest.


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## unimacs

darksails said:


> That sounds about right haha. Just set a course on the iphone and forget the rest.


I guess you can look at it two ways. Adding technology would lessen and cheapen the experience. It would contribute to our already over dependence on gadgets. Shoot, - using a sextant is for pussies. What happens when that sensitive instrument gets busted or lost? Navigating across oceans using dead reckoning, now that's how real men and the truly skilled sailors did it. 

Or you can look at another way. A sailboat in and of itself is a technological creation. And one that has been improved and undergone radical changes over the centuries. Humanity has survived and thrived not just through brute force, but through invention.

But it's like we somehow have adopted this Amish attitude towards sailing. Innovation in the boats that most of use has all but stopped. And maybe that's just because we associate modern with powered. And we don't want powered so sailing remains stuck in time.

And I've probably have said this before, but a big part of me is OK with that. I do not think all technology is good. I happen to think the gas powered leaf blower is a tool of Satan. And what's wrong with a regular old screw driver or socket set? Does everything need a battery?

Yet I think the downside of keeping sailing stuck in time is exactly what we're seeing. The rest of the world is moving on to different things. I think for most people a sailboat is a nice piece of nostalgia, - like a Norman Rockwell painting. It's pretty to look at, and we may miss what it represents, but given the choice, few people really want to go back to living that way.


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## captain jack

unimacs said:


> I guess you can look at it two ways. Adding technology would lessen and cheapen the experience. It would contribute to our already over dependence on gadgets. Shoot, - using a sextant is for pussies. What happens when that sensitive instrument gets busted or lost? Navigating across oceans using dead reckoning, now that's how real men and the truly skilled sailors did it.
> 
> Or you can look at another way. A sailboat in and of itself is a technological creation. And one that has been improved and undergone radical changes over the centuries. Humanity has survived and thrived not just through brute force, but through invention.
> 
> But it's like we somehow have adopted this Amish attitude towards sailing. Innovation in the boats that most of use has all but stopped. And maybe that's just because we associate modern with powered. And we don't want powered so sailing remains stuck in time.
> 
> And I've probably have said this before, but a big part of me is OK with that. I do not think all technology is good. I happen to think the gas powered leaf blower is a tool of Satan. And what's wrong with a regular old screw driver or socket set? Does everything need a battery?
> 
> Yet I think the downside of keeping sailing stuck in time is exactly what we're seeing. The rest of the world is moving on to different things. I think for most people a sailboat is a nice piece of nostalgia, - like a Norman Rockwell painting. It's pretty to look at, and we may miss what it represents, but given the choice, few people really want to go back to living that way.


hmmm yes. there is the nostalgic reason for keeping sailing 'pure' but i don't think that is the only or best reason.

there is technology and there is technology. precomputer technology was human centered. it took the human element to make it work. and i'd never say that old school sailing skills are brute force. the skills it takes to be a real sailor are really very subtle and deep. sailing is an art. like all arts, when you remove the human element you remove the art. and that is what our computer age technology does; it removes the humanity. no longer is human knowledge, skill, intuition, judgement, or talent an intergral part of activities that have replaced the human brain with the silicon chip. more and more, our lives are losing the humanity; the art.

but that's not entirely it, either.

even though there are things machines do really well, no machine can replace the subtlety of the human brain. but that's just what we toss out when we let them take over an activity. no gizmo could be a better sailor than some old salt that reads the catspaws on the water, the flight of birds, and a thousand other telltale signs he has learned, over his years at he tiller. that's something you noted in your first paragraph; what a real sailor can do ithout even the old time tools of navigation.

when you give a machine the helm you give it your soul. people don't rely on machines AND learn the old ways, too. they just give the machine the helm and rely on it like a babe relies on it's mother. but babies grow up. they become more than babies. people suckling at the tit of echnology become less. then, when the machines fail as machines always do, the humans that relied on them are at a loss. do you know that most people can't even make fire; one of the very first, and most basic, of all human technologies. what do such people do if they are stranded in the wilderness? they die.

sailing is, indeed, a very subtle technology but, as yet, it is a technology that requires humanity. it requires us, the sailors, to become. give it over to machines and we will no longer become, we will just stagnate. and sailing will become just another mindless activity to while away our time; an activity that no longer feeds the soul and develops the mind. even having a motor, in your sailboat, is an invitation to be less of a real sailor; to forget learning to really handle your boat and just rely on the motor. it's an invitation too many people take. the engine has already lessened the quality of sailing skills that you see in the people who sail. how much more will the real skills of sailing fall by the wayside, if you computerize it?

boat design and development is another subject that would be good for a thread of it's own.


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## casioqv

I am proud of learning to read the direction and speed of the wind by looking at the water surface. I never would have learned this if the boat did it for me.

I think many people are drawn to sailing in part because it's difficult: modern life is too easy physically and mentally, and the lack of challenge harms us. We require constant mental and physical challenge to grow, and deteriorate without it. 

Technical advancements that make a sailboat sail better for a skilled sailor are worthwhile, but anything that reduces the need for knowledge and seamanship is a detriment, and makes sailing less fun and less worthwhile.


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## captain jack

one thing i think you aren't considering: technology already advanced, as far as boats are concerned, at it left ailing behind, in favor of motors. it chose machines over art. sailing was, once, a fundamental element in human survival and advancement. it expanded our place in the world. it defended out shores. it fed us and supplied us with goods. it was a basic mode of transportation. 

except for skipjacks and fishing boats in third world countries, sailing is no longer a necessary technology. it was ousted by machines. now, it's a sport and a past time. an art and pleasure from the past. it has no modern relevance except for that. until our civilization crumbles, it will be that way. 

so, if you are worried about sailing not moving into the future, you are worried about something that happened in the 1800s. sailing didn't move into the future. it became obsolete. we just reach into the past to enjoy the art that helped make man great.


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## captain jack

casioqv said:


> I am proud of learning to read the direction and speed of the wind by looking at the water surface. I never would have learned this if the boat did it for me.
> 
> I think many people are drawn to sailing in part because it's difficult: modern life is too easy physically and mentally, and the lack of challenge harms us. We require constant mental and physical challenge to grow, and deteriorate without it.
> 
> Technical advancements that make a sailboat sail better for a skilled sailor are worthwhile, but anything that reduces the need for knowledge and seamanship is a detriment, and makes sailing less fun and less worthwhile.


exactly so


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## unimacs

casioqv said:


> I am proud of learning to read the direction and speed of the wind by looking at the water surface. I never would have learned this if the boat did it for me.
> 
> I think many people are drawn to sailing in part because it's difficult: modern life is too easy physically and mentally, and the lack of challenge harms us. We require constant mental and physical challenge to grow, and deteriorate without it.
> 
> Technical advancements that make a sailboat sail better for a skilled sailor are worthwhile, but anything that reduces the need for knowledge and seamanship is a detriment, and makes sailing less fun and less worthwhile.


One way of teaching kids to skate is to let them push around a chair or sled built for that purpose. Using the chair to help support their weight allows the kids to focus on the mechanics of skating. Once they get that down, then they can focus on balance. Eventually, they don't need the chair.

My suggestion for a teaching aid may indeed prove to be a lame one. Based on my limited observations though, people struggle with sailing because they're having to do several things at once that they don't know how to do. A tiller works the wrong way from what they're used to. Terminology is foreign. Tacking is disorienting. Shifting body position. Understanding sail trim. In my opinion, a lot of skills would come quicker if the new sailor knew at all times where the wind is coming from.

Instruments that show actual wind direction already exist and are used by people who already know how to sail. It doesn't replace the ability to anticipate gusts or direction changes by looking at the water, but that's a skill that can wait.

As I mentioned, I spent a lot of time this summer in boats with new sailors. I heard lots of tips from more experienced sailors on how to figure out where the wind is coming from and I gave my own. One guy said that he was once told by an old timer that he used to check which way the cows were standing because they always face the wind. Not sure I believe that one and it's not terribly useful in most places I've sailed. Looking at the water is not 100% reliable either.


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## unimacs

captain jack said:


> one thing i think you aren't considering: technology already advanced, as far as boats are concerned, at it left ailing behind, in favor of motors. it chose machines over art. sailing was, once, a fundamental element in human survival and advancement. it expanded our place in the world. it defended out shores. it fed us and supplied us with goods. it was a basic mode of transportation.
> 
> except for skipjacks and fishing boats in third world countries, sailing is no longer a necessary technology. it was ousted by machines. now, it's a sport and a past time. an art and pleasure from the past. it has no modern relevance except for that. until our civilization crumbles, it will be that way.
> 
> so, if you are worried about sailing not moving into the future, you are worried about something that happened in the 1800s. sailing didn't move into the future. it became obsolete. we just reach into the past to enjoy the art that helped make man great.


Lots of innovation in sailing took place well after the 1800s. Some important innovations, like fiberglass hulls, are what made sailing accessible to those outside of the very privileged. That didn't happen until the later 50's/early 60's.


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## captain jack

unimacs said:


> As I mentioned, I spent a lot of time this summer in boats with new sailors. I heard lots of tips from more experienced sailors on how to figure out where the wind is coming from and I gave my own. One guy said that he was once told by an old timer that he used to check which way the cows were standing because they always face the wind. Not sure I believe that one and it's not terribly useful in most places I've sailed. Looking at the water is not 100% reliable either.


cows do tend to stand facing the wind, but not always. however, birds always land and take off into the wind. water is always a god indicator as are leaves in the trees, if you are close to shore.

but you can feel the wind in the hairs on your armes and legs. you can really feel it in your face. try standing facing the general direction of the wind. slowly rotate your face back and forth. you can tell when you are facing the wind directly. also, use your ears. it sounds silly but you can hear the wind and learn to tell the direction from that.

but learning to read the water is really a big one. knowing how to read the water, and being ever vigilant, saved me when a big squall hit, early in the summer. if i hadn't been fore warned, i shudder to think of what might have been the outcome. i was caught out in it, but i was ready whe it struck.


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## captain jack

unimacs said:


> Lots of innovation in sailing took place well after the 1800s. Some important innovations, like fiberglass hulls, are what made sailing accessible to those outside of the very privileged. That didn't happen until the later 50's/early 60's.


i am not saying there hasn't been innovation. i am saying it is not a relevant technology. the path of technology left sailing behind n favor of machine power. people kept sailing alive, and develop it further, because they enjoyed it. but they were, and we are, keeping alive an old irrelevant ( to the modern world ) technology. that being the case, you can't really say about people clinging to the old ways, rather than advancing with the times. sailing is the old ways and we are all clinging to it. that's what i was trying to say.


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## unimacs

captain jack said:


> cows do tend to stand facing the wind, but not always. however, birds always land and take off into the wind. water is always a god indicator as are leaves in the trees, if you are close to shore.
> 
> but you can feel the wind in the hairs on your armes and legs. you can really feel it in your face. try standing facing the general direction of the wind. slowly rotate your face back and forth. you can tell when you are facing the wind directly. also, use your ears. it sounds silly but you can hear the wind and learn to tell the direction from that.
> 
> but learning to read the water is really a big one. knowing how to read the water, and being ever vigilant, saved me when a big squall hit, early in the summer. if i hadn't been fore warned, i shudder to think of what might have been the outcome. i was caught out in it, but i was ready whe it struck.


I'd like to think I've got a pretty good feel for wind direction and will subconsciously look for a number of clues but I still find myself occasionally trying to figure it out when it's obvious that my trim is off or I'm not going anywhere. 

Ones face, hairs, ears or whatever are feeling apparent wind. What you see in the water and trees (or birds or cows) is true wind. Catamarans and windsurfers can really mess with your sense of wind direction since they can often go faster than the wind speed. This can make it seem like you're almost always going upwind.


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## captain jack

i am aware of the difference between apparent wind and true wind. reading apparent wind guides your sail trim. reading the true wind, and all those signs of it, can warn you of what is coming. both equally important.


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## Sal Paradise

My boat knows which way the wind is blowing, and she tells me in no uncertain terms.


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## unimacs

captain jack said:


> i am aware of the difference between apparent wind and true wind. reading apparent wind guides your sail trim. reading the true wind, and all those signs of it, can warn you of what is coming. both equally important.


I figured you did and one can muddle through without having a full understanding of the difference. I muddled for a long time but I definitely noticed the phenomenon and it confused me at times. Waves telling me one thing, sail telling me another, and the boat not letting me do what I thought the waves were saying I could.


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## unimacs

Sal Paradise said:


> My boat knows which way the wind is blowing, and she tells me in no uncertain terms.


Yes, but you are a wizened sage who understands what the boat is saying. Those that don't can find themselves swimming.


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## Sal Paradise

Not really a sage. 

I think I orient to the wind okay ( better than some, worse than others) but more importantly what I do have in common with the sages ; 

I try and develop overall strategies for getting the boat from point A to point B safely and quickly while dealing with the wind in real time and anticipating wind and tide changes. I plan.


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## JonEisberg

unimacs said:


> I'd really prefer it if less people used power boats or personal watercraft and took up sailing instead.


Dream on...

Hell, I'd prefer it if people who already own _SAILBOATS_ did less motoring, and took up sailing instead...


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## captain jack

unimacs said:


> Yes, but you are a wizened sage who understands what the boat is saying. Those that don't can find themselves swimming.


you make him sound like Yoda. i can see it, now: "wind you must read, young jedai sailor." 

anyhow, you are right, however, i think it can be done. no one taught me to sail and i started in a pretty tender dinghy. even though i sail in some pretty heavy conditions, i have never been in the water, yet ( and it makes my girlfriend crazy. she's always telling me, " you better take a bath. that's not sanitary" lol ). so, it can be done.

besides, a lesson learned the hard way is a lesson learned. for me, capsizing was to be avoided at all costs because i don't swim. i suspect most people who take up sailing swim so a capsize isn't the end of the world. it's a learning experience.


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## christian.hess

JonEisberg said:


> Dream on...
> 
> Hell, I'd prefer it if people who already own _SAILBOATS_ did less motoring, and took up sailing instead...


SHAZAAM! exactly!!!!!!!!!!! bravo

so lets start by for example when somebody new comes on sailnet like myself wanting options for an inboard or a small auxiliary, NOT reccomending a freaking 50hp inboard on a 30ft boat

lets not say you cant fight a lee shore without a huge diesel

lets not always say a diesel inboard is best(for what?) for who?

lets not say electric is not viable

lets not say an outboard looks hideous dont do it(what you can un install an outboard? especially cruising?)

lest not say that the only option for sailors repowering is to invest 10-15k in a complete repower

*lets NOT say sailing without a motor is UNSAFE*

this last sentence is what irks me the most, the absolute FALLACY by sailors and non sailors alike that a small medium or big sailboat is unsafe because the owner doesnt have a huge inboard

come on guys!

SAIL!


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## captain jack

remember i said that marketing sailing would be a big step towards getting more people sailing? well, i noticed something, today. there are ads featuring sailboats, but it's not good advertising. there is a viagra ad, aimed at older people ( who can't get it up- also not an attractive association for anyone ). there is also an ad, showing an older couple enjoying retirement with a relaxing sail, for insurance for the elderly.

that's how sailing is being portrayed, in the mass media; as a thing for the old or impotent. not a good image that will draw the young.

seriously, the sailing industry needs to work on marketing sailing to the young. especially, they need to counter the ads showing it as being a thing for the old.


----------



## unimacs

captain jack said:


> remember i said that marketing sailing would be a big step towards getting more people sailing? well, i noticed something, today. there are ads featuring sailboats, but it's not good advertising. there is a viagra ad, aimed at older people ( who can't get it up- also not an attractive association for anyone ). there is also an ad, showing an older couple enjoying retirement with a relaxing sail, for insurance for the elderly.
> 
> that's how sailing is being portrayed, in the mass media; as a thing for the old or impotent. not a good image that will draw the young.
> 
> seriously, the sailing industry needs to work on marketing sailing to the young. especially, they need to counter the ads showing it as being a thing for the old.


All the advertising I see featuring sailboats or sailing (outside of sailing magazines, internet sites, etc) is for products other than sailboats.

Obviously sailboats and sailing evoke an emotional response in people or you'd never see them in advertising. Yet nobody advertises sailing or actual boats to the mass market.


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## captain jack

unimacs said:


> All the advertising I see featuring sailboats or sailing (outside of sailing magazines, internet sites, etc) is for products other than sailboats.
> 
> Obviously sailboats and sailing evoke an emotional response in people or you'd never see them in advertising. Yet nobody advertises sailing or actual boats to the mass market.


exactly, and almost 100% of the time, it's aimed at the baby boom generation, not young people. i don't know why you don't see advertising for sailboats in the mass market. advertising is the best way to get people to buy your product. they advertise in sailing magazines but that only reaches existing sailors, a shrinking part of the population.


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## unimacs

captain jack said:


> exactly, and almost 100% of the time, it's aimed at the baby boom generation, not young people. i don't know why you don't see advertising for sailboats in the mass market. advertising is the best way to get people to buy your product. they advertise in sailing magazines but that only reaches existing sailors, a shrinking part of the population.


I agree. Maybe they've just given up.

Since there are a billion media outlets now, I suppose everyone is doing more targeting marketing. It used to be you could put a commercial on one of the major television stations and you'd know you'd reach 95% of the market. Not so true anymore.


----------



## captain jack

unimacs said:


> I agree. Maybe they've just given up.
> 
> Since there are a billion media outlets now, I suppose everyone is doing more targeting marketing. It used to be you could put a commercial on one of the major television stations and you'd know you'd reach 95% of the market. Not so true anymore.


true. but people still watch TV, even if they watch it on line. they could have ads on the major networks and on internet TV sites, like hulu.


----------



## mark2gmtrans

barefootnavigator said:


> Whats a smart phone?


One that can swim, or better yet jumps out of your pocket and onto the boat as you fall overboard?


----------



## Spiny Norman

*The sport has an image as being unapproachable.*

Fairly or unfairly, sailing carries with it images of either daredevils plotting a course along the Mindanao reef or gentlemen with caps and blazers sipping champagne while eying their bikini-clad companions. Both imply money and leisure, something not easily available for people in the 20s and 30s.

Add to that the - if you will allow me - somewhat snobbish reputation. I've run by the local yacht clubs dozens of times, but they always seemed - less than welcoming. Hell, in the one where I currently crew I feel just-about-tolerated by the front desk staff - the sailors, OTOH, are as welcoming as can be.

Most people think they need to own a boat, that a boat has to run to several hundreds of thousands, and there is no one there to tell them otherwise. We need imagery that shows more "Look how much FUN these people have" and less "Look what a COOL EXPENSIVE BOAT these people have". If we want broader appeal, we need to do what golf did and shred the upper-crust image. And it is on us to reach out.

My city - bless them - maintains two keelboats and run an ASA program. After completion, there's weekly access to the boats for a nominal fee. And that's how I get on the water. (It's also how I got the bug and I will get my own boat in a few years. The system works.)

Some yacht clubs could do well to emulate that, I feel. An old Capri 25 to share, some old hands to instruct and skipper, a chance to network with boat owners, get some opportunities to act as crew. But it has to come with some sort of outreach.


----------



## jenunn01

Not so sure I would agree that most "20 somethings" are useless. Seems a little harsh. My 28 year old son spent five years in the Marines, came out got a degree in business and is planning on cruising extensively when the time is right.
He is honing his single handing skills on our Catalina 30 while saving his pennies for a bluewater boat. Seems like a logical plan to me.


----------



## captain jack

*Re: The sport has an image as being unapproachable.*



Spiny Norman said:


> Fairly or unfairly, sailing carries with it images of either daredevils plotting a course along the Mindanao reef or gentlemen with caps and blazers sipping champagne while eying their bikini-clad companions. Both imply money and leisure, something not easily available for people in the 20s and 30s.
> 
> Add to that the - if you will allow me - somewhat snobbish reputation. I've run by the local yacht clubs dozens of times, but they always seemed - less than welcoming. Hell, in the one where I currently crew I feel just-about-tolerated by the front desk staff - the sailors, OTOH, are as welcoming as can be.
> 
> Most people think they need to own a boat, that a boat has to run to several hundreds of thousands, and there is no one there to tell them otherwise. We need imagery that shows more "Look how much FUN these people have" and less "Look what a COOL EXPENSIVE BOAT these people have". If we want broader appeal, we need to do what golf did and shred the upper-crust image. And it is on us to reach out.
> 
> My city - bless them - maintains two keelboats and run an ASA program. After completion, there's weekly access to the boats for a nominal fee. And that's how I get on the water. (It's also how I got the bug and I will get my own boat in a few years. The system works.)
> 
> Some yacht clubs could do well to emulate that, I feel. An old Capri 25 to share, some old hands to instruct and skipper, a chance to network with boat owners, get some opportunities to act as crew. But it has to come with some sort of outreach.


i thoroughly agree. i teach medieval combat, at a local college. last year, one of my students overheard me talking about sailing and she was shocked. she couldn't see me sailing...because of the rich, snobby yacht club image, which i most definaely do not resemble.


----------



## captain jack

jenunn01 said:


> Not so sure I would agree that most "20 somethings" are useless. Seems a little harsh. My 28 year old son spent five years in the Marines, came out got a degree in business and is planning on cruising extensively when the time is right.
> He is honing his single handing skills on our Catalina 30 while saving his pennies for a bluewater boat. Seems like a logical plan to me.


that would be why the word 'most' was used rather than 'all'.


----------



## outbound

What strikes me as odd is there seems to be an inverse relationship between time/miles on the water and snobbiness. Doesn't matter if its in a new Baltic or and old Pearson.


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## captain jack

outbound said:


> What strikes me as odd is there seems to be an inverse relationship between time/miles on the water and snobbiness. Doesn't matter if its in a new Baltic or and old Pearson.


yeah. you see the same thing in the motorcycle world. the more harley davidson apparel a person wears ( which equates with snobbiness ), the less time they actually spend riding. most of the time. if you put on airs to prove that you are the 'real thing', you usually aren't.


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## outbound

Jack after three dressers got a wing.now they won't talk to me.


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## captain jack

outbound said:


> Jack after three dressers got a wing.now they won't talk to me.


yeah. that kind of BS is why i have to wear a helmet in this state, now. not that i don't break that law every chance i get people who rode motorcycles used to stick together, regardless of brand. now the 'scene' is full of wanna be bikers pretending that their crap smells better than yours because they ride an authentic American bike....that is 75% foreign made. ugh, don't get me started on that bit of rediculousness.


----------



## JonEisberg

captain jack said:


> Originally Posted by unimacs
> I agree. Maybe they've just given up.
> 
> Since there are a billion media outlets now, I suppose everyone is doing more targeting marketing. It used to be you could put a commercial on one of the major television stations and you'd know you'd reach 95% of the market. Not so true anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> true. but people still watch TV, even if they watch it on line. they could have ads on the major networks and on internet TV sites, like hulu.
Click to expand...

C'mon, you guys cannot be serious 

Magazines like SAIL and CRUISING WORLD are growing thinner every month, manufacturers and vendors are barely able to pay that meager freight - and now you think _"THE SAILING INDUSTRY"_ should start running ads on freakin' _Network Television???_

_"The Industry"_ could save sailing by pooling their resources to run 30 second spots at $2 million a pop during the Super Bowl? Yeah, that's the ticket...


----------



## aeventyr60

I still believe that the future of sailing is in the small sailing clubs catering to the young folks. We see many kids enjoying sailing optimist's at the local clubs here in Asia. If you get out a bit in your area I think you will find this is still true. Maybe the gift of sailing still starts at the local lake, river, pond on small dinghy's. No, these will never be advertised in the glossy magazines, but it should be the focus of getting people out to sail. Young or old.


----------



## christian.hess

well said aeventry...


----------



## unimacs

JonEisberg said:


> C'mon, you guys cannot be serious
> 
> Magazines like SAIL and CRUISING WORLD are growing thinner every month, manufacturers and vendors are barely able to pay that meager freight - and now you think _"THE SAILING INDUSTRY"_ should start running ads on freakin' _Network Television???_
> 
> _"The Industry"_ could save sailing by pooling their resources to run 30 second spots at $2 million a pop during the Super Bowl? Yeah, that's the ticket...


Actually I was thinking that it's harder now to reach a large audience because of the larger number of media outlets. It used to be that a boat dealer could have a relatively cheap add on a *local* TV station and reach a much bigger audience.

Nevertheless, if all you do is advertise to the shrinking number of people already sailing and not trying to expand the market, you're just fighting for the scraps.

Honestly until recently I couldn't even name one marina/store locally where I could even look at a new sailboat. And I'm a sailor.


----------



## christian.hess

yup...I had this issue as a trainer down here...we went to schools, malls, shops everything....
we got 1 kid whose dad said it was better to sail than play video games... ONE!


all the other moron parents did not want the kids to be in a dangerous place( a lake), they wanted them to be "close" to town...not far away...etc...all excuses

and they said that sailing basically sucked...whats the point when you can play soccer(main sport down here) or ride motocross etc...

this at very high end private schools...in public schools in poor communities guess what?

parents were as happy as can be to have their kids do something other than be parts of GANGS...which is a huge deadly issue down here

goes to show...reality is different for everyone as is where you live, grow up and work etc...

I miss this job tremendously as I felt I was not just working but spreading the word if you will...


----------



## unimacs

aeventyr60 said:


> I still believe that the future of sailing is in the small sailing clubs catering to the young folks. We see many kids enjoying sailing optimist's at the local clubs here in Asia. If you get out a bit in your area I think you will find this is still true. Maybe the gift of sailing still starts at the local lake, river, pond on small dinghy's. No, these will never be advertised in the glossy magazines, but it should be the focus of getting people out to sail. Young or old.


I think thats probably true. Boat ownership is either out of reach or too much hassle for many people, - young or old.

Rather than advertising boats, perhaps what should be advertised it opportunities to sail and/or learning to sail. Seems like I run across advertisements for flying lessons or diving lessons fairly frequently. I can't say the same for sailing but maybe I'm just missing it.


----------



## captain jack

unimacs said:


> Nevertheless, if all you do is advertise to the shrinking number of people already sailing and not trying to expand the market, you're just fighting for the scraps.


that's exactly what i was getting at.

the cost of marketing is part of the cost of doing business. if you have no buyers you have no business.

there are tons of ads for sailboats in sailing magazines. the manufacturers are already worrying about a shrinking market. it's time they did something about it.

instead of tossing money at a shrinking market, that knows about them, they should invest in attracting a new market. those who sail usually look to find out what the new models will be like, if they are interested, in that, at all. it's the ones who don't know about sailing that they are not reaching, with their advertising money. it wqould be money wiser spent, to seek out new sailors, rather than advertise to old ones.

if your supply of water is shrinking, you can't wait til it is completely gone, and you are dying, to look for more water.


----------



## outbound

Take a lubber sailing. Yes, take a lubber sailing.

I've taken my motorcycle buddies and my stink pot fishing buddies sailing. If their kids and significant others come along so much the better. Once they hang on a sailboat and get that rush that comes with a good sail or that total tranquility that comes with a light air day they are hooked. Some have gone on to charter repetitively and a few to buy their own boats. Therefore, I ask you to

Take a lubber sailing


----------



## captain jack

that's a good idea, too. grass roots advertising, so to speak.


----------



## JonEisberg

aeventyr60 said:


> I still believe that the future of sailing is in the small sailing clubs catering to the young folks. We see many kids enjoying sailing optimist's at the local clubs here in Asia. If you get out a bit in your area I think you will find this is still true. Maybe the gift of sailing still starts at the local lake, river, pond on small dinghy's. No, these will never be advertised in the glossy magazines, but it should be the focus of getting people out to sail. Young or old.


Absolutely spot on... I'd rather place the future of sailing in the hands of a bunch of kids in Optis, with the ability to intuit where the wind is coming from by simply looking at a piece of yarn on a shroud, or a masthead fly, rather than depending upon adults who require looking at an electronic display, or reliance on automated anti-gybe systems, or who need articulating Dock-n-Go bow and stern thrusters to return a daysailer to the dock in one piece 

I'm amazed at the apparent lack of awareness in some of the widespread youth sailing programs around the USA... My dinky little yacht club - until it was destroyed a year ago in Hurricane Sandy - ran the most highly regarded youth sailing program on Barnegat Bay, a historic hot bed of small boat sailing that has spawned sailors for generations... I grew up sailing on the bay, racing against the likes of great sailors like Gary Jobson, and Henry Bossett... Gary, now the head of US Sailing, and one of the greatest ambassadors for sailing the sport has ever seen, has been absolutely tireless in his support of youth sailing programs... For decades, he has been returning to his boyhood home of Beachwood each year, to further promote sailing programs in this area... And, he does this everywhere he goes...

Every region I travel to, such programs appear to be going pretty strong... Most large metro areas also have programs that are reaching out to disadvantaged kids and minorities, trying to broaden the appeal of the sport, and of course there are foundations such as CRAB, dedicated to getting people with disabilities out on the water... Between sailing schools, or socially oriented groups such as Sailing for Singles, there is a whole host of ways in which people might be drawn into sailing that certainly never existed when I was younger... US Sailing's REACH Program is but one example of the creative ways in which the association is reaching out in efforts to integrate the sport into educational programs, and the wider community beyond sailing:

REACH Program

The key to developing sailors, is to engender a real _PASSION_ for the sport, and the greatest success rate in doing so will obviously be among the young... I was just reminded of this over the weekend, after returning home from another trip, and catching up on my mail. Here's an excerpt from a wonderful piece written by a student at my college alma mater, who has spent all of her summers thru college working in some capacity on boats, and whose memories of her introduction to sailing mirrors my own very closely:



> A Watery Start
> 
> Why, a child of the urban and less-than-maritime metropolitan borough of Brooklyn, N.Y., have I felt so entirely at home at sea, far away from the bright lights, honking cars, and hot dog vendors?
> 
> It begins with my parents; more specifically, my mother, who grew up sailing on the south shore of Long Island and taught sailing in the Caribbean in her 20s. She enrolled my younger brother and me in a sailing camp as soon as we were old enough, 9 and 7 years old, respectively, and we would go on to sail competitively through high school.
> 
> The magic of the art of sail swept me away, betrothing me to the salty life of the seadog. The yacht club where I learned to sail was among the smallest in the region, and not well equipped. Our sailing camp - like its half-stoned sailing instructors in between semesters at college - had little direction and even less motivation toward competitive distinction. We learned on a small fleet of decrepit Optimists, 8-foot bathtub hulls with tiny, sprit-rigged sails, whose booms were the perfect height for conking children on the side of the head whenever the boat was turned. The older kids moved on to slightly larger, double-sailed boats in equally poor condition and with just as much head-conking potential. Windless days were spent watching inappropriate movies and listening to our sailing instructors scream fervently at reruns of The Price Is Right while we played cards on the musty carpeted floor. We loved every second of it.
> 
> I returned to the camp every summer for 10 years. My parents, desperate for more scholastic - or at least less-explicit - summers for their children, tried unsuccessfully to interest us in scouting camps, summer college programs, or art classes. They kept this up for years, always to be met with the same defiant insistence of another summer at sailing camp. The tiny bay I sailed on seemed vast and limitless. Controlling my own boat was intoxicating and addicting. The kids I learned alongside were different and unusual, especially so when released from the binds of the school day, where activity meant kickball if we were lucky, choir practice if we were not.
> 
> Something about my mother's half-hearted surrender to the dirty, scummy world of sailing made it just dangerous enough to be alluring, but safe enough to know I would win a smile at the recounting of my sailing adventures each night after dinner. I was a pirate by day, a suburban pre-teen by night. I came home exhausted and sunburned and happy.
> 
> Meanwhile, as I entered the tumultuous years of adolescence, I spent the time in between sailing summers searching hopelessly for academic direction. Extracurricular interests appeared and faded as each school year went by. When I began high school, I still felt at ease only when the turmoil of my disillusion was met by the turmoil of the wintery sea. During science class, I would daydream about the starting line at a racecourse. During gym class, I never felt as integrated into the competition as I did during the early morning rigging of a mid-summer regatta. After school, no matter the time of year, I would head as soon as I could down to the bay shore near my house, or, if I was lucky enough to find a ride, take the 30-minute drive down to the blustery oceanfront. Then the summer would return and I would feel whole again, comforted and welcomed by the sailing community.
> 
> Colgate Connect - Ocean Reveries


For me, she sums up beautifully how sailors are born... If there is a wrong turn that 'The Sailing Industry' has taken in recent years, it is having lost sight of the development in young people like Leah of the passion for sailing as an _ACTIVITY_, and instead focusing on the marketing of sailing and cruising as a _LIFESTYLE_... Sure, the 'Industy' reaps the great short term rewards of selling large, expensive boats to well-heeled Boomers seduced by the promises of the glossy sailing mags, and the portrayal of the cruising life as just one extended charter vacation... But, as I see time and time again in my business, cruising is bound to disappoint over time for those without any real love of the activity of _SAILING_ itself... It's been good business for me - I just finished up yet another delivery to a broker of yet another 40-footer that was someone's First Boat, but found after a few years the 'lifestyle' didn't quite live up to the hype - but I doubt the continuation of this trend bodes well for the future of sailing, as I see more and more of my clients making the switch to power, or getting out of boating completely...


----------



## unimacs

I think focusing on youth programs is a great idea but let me ask you this. The girl in the above story got into sailing because her mother was a sailor. 

So what would convince a couple of parents who've never sailed to enroll their kid into some sort of sailing program as opposed to tee-ball or soccer or piano or dance or swimming or circus/gymnastics/tumbling or scouts, etc. etc. etc. ? 

My kids are a bit older now but I remember well my wife and I struggling over what sort of activities to get our kids involved in. As much as I like to think of myself as a Renaissance guy who would like to expose his kids to everything, there are financial and logistical limits. Of course once your kids are old enough, their personal interests are going to be a determining factor, but how many kids who've never been sailing are going to ask their parents to sign them up for a sailing camp?

There was a guy (I forgot his name) who's done some research into the decline of sailing and his take was that it's no longer a family activity in the way it once was. Youth programs have had some success but unless you get the parents into it too, most kids will eventually drop out.


----------



## priceless9192

great points guys. as a 19 year old attending a local state college, i just picked up my first 'big boat'. last weekend a 1982 San Juan 28 popped up on craigslist in my town and i jumped on it immediatly. with the salesman of the yard on the phone with 5 other potential buyers, i bought it. from the $3500 price tag i got it for $900! the boat was abandoned by its owner in 2009 and has been in the yards way ever since. what seems like new North sails were serviced and stored in the yards loft. running 15 hp yanmar. furling jib and lazy jacks for the main. wheel steering with working autopilot. i plan to start the bulk head replacement very soon. other than that it is all cosmetic detail and cleaning. transatlantic voyage in fall 2014?


----------



## captain jack

JonEisberg said:


> Absolutely spot on... I'd rather place the future of sailing in the hands of a bunch of kids in Optis, with the ability to intuit where the wind is coming from by simply looking at a piece of yarn on a shroud, or a masthead fly, rather than depending upon adults who require looking at an electronic display, or reliance on automated anti-gybe systems, or who need articulating Dock-n-Go bow and stern thrusters to return a daysailer to the dock in one piece
> 
> I'm amazed at the apparent lack of awareness in some of the widespread youth sailing programs around the USA... My dinky little yacht club - until it was destroyed a year ago in Hurricane Sandy - ran the most highly regarded youth sailing program on Barnegat Bay, a historic hot bed of small boat sailing that has spawned sailors for generations... I grew up sailing on the bay, racing against the likes of great sailors like Gary Jobson, and Henry Bossett... Gary, now the head of US Sailing, and one of the greatest ambassadors for sailing the sport has ever seen, has been absolutely tireless in his support of youth sailing programs... For decades, he has been returning to his boyhood home of Beachwood each year, to further promote sailing programs in this area... And, he does this everywhere he goes...
> 
> Every region I travel to, such programs appear to be going pretty strong... Most large metro areas also have programs that are reaching out to disadvantaged kids and minorities, trying to broaden the appeal of the sport, and of course there are foundations such as CRAB, dedicated to getting people with disabilities out on the water... Between sailing schools, or socially oriented groups such as Sailing for Singles, there is a whole host of ways in which people might be drawn into sailing that certainly never existed when I was younger... US Sailing's REACH Program is but one example of the creative ways in which the association is reaching out in efforts to integrate the sport into educational programs, and the wider community beyond sailing:
> 
> REACH Program
> 
> The key to developing sailors, is to engender a real _PASSION_ for the sport, and the greatest success rate in doing so will obviously be among the young... I was just reminded of this over the weekend, after returning home from another trip, and catching up on my mail. Here's an excerpt from a wonderful piece written by a student at my college alma mater, who has spent all of her summers thru college working in some capacity on boats, and whose memories of her introduction to sailing mirrors my own very closely:
> 
> For me, she sums up beautifully how sailors are born... If there is a wrong turn that 'The Sailing Industry' has taken in recent years, it is having lost sight of the development in young people like Leah of the passion for sailing as an _ACTIVITY_, and instead focusing on the marketing of sailing and cruising as a _LIFESTYLE_... Sure, the 'Industy' reaps the great short term rewards of selling large, expensive boats to well-heeled Boomers seduced by the promises of the glossy sailing mags, and the portrayal of the cruising life as just one extended charter vacation... But, as I see time and time again in my business, cruising is bound to disappoint over time for those without any real love of the activity of _SAILING_ itself... It's been good business for me - I just finished up yet another delivery to a broker of yet another 40-footer that was someone's First Boat, but found after a few years the 'lifestyle' didn't quite live up to the hype - but I doubt the continuation of this trend bodes well for the future of sailing, as I see more and more of my clients making the switch to power, or getting out of boating completely...


really an excellent post. i think it's right on target, too.


----------



## captain jack

unimacs said:


> I think focusing on youth programs is a great idea but let me ask you this. The girl in the above story got into sailing because her mother was a sailor.
> 
> So what would convince a couple of parents who've never sailed to enroll their kid into some sort of sailing program as opposed to tee-ball or soccer or piano or dance or swimming or circus/gymnastics/tumbling or scouts, etc. etc. etc. ?
> 
> My kids are a bit older now but I remember well my wife and I struggling over what sort of activities to get our kids involved in. As much as I like to think of myself as a Renaissance guy who would like to expose his kids to everything, there are financial and logistical limits. Of course once your kids are old enough, their personal interests are going to be a determining factor, but how many kids who've never been sailing are going to ask their parents to sign them up for a sailing camp?
> 
> There was a guy (I forgot his name) who's done some research into the decline of sailing and his take was that it's no longer a family activity in the way it once was. Youth programs have had some success but unless you get the parents into it too, most kids will eventually drop out.


also a great point. perhaps the big issue, with this, is the decline of family, itself. many families don't do things together, much. kids have TVs and computers in their rooms so even the family getting together to watch TV is now getting rare.

when i was a kid, my parents shared their music with us. they shared their movie interests with us. my mom read to us. we worked on the cars or around the house with my dad. they both told us stories of their younger lives. my dad shared motorcycles with us. basically, they shared themselves with us.

you just don't see a lot of that, now. it's off to after school activities then it's away from the folks, in their rooms, on the net or gaming.

what's that one phone ad? the family is on vacation, but each one of them is doing something totally different. none of them spending any time together. but they all have phones so they can have 'family' vacation 'together'...because they have phones to connect them. yeah. that's an ad but not terribly far from reality.

i think sailing is no longer a family activity partially, maybe mainly, because families don't do things together.

so, how do you get sailing to be a family activity when families rarely do anything together?

but you do post a good question. if there is no sailing background, how do you get kids into sailing clubs. however, perhaps, this is a good answer:



christian.hess said:


> yup...I had this issue as a trainer down here...we went to schools, malls, shops everything....
> we got 1 kid whose dad said it was better to sail than play video games... ONE!
> 
> all the other moron parents did not want the kids to be in a dangerous place( a lake), they wanted them to be "close" to town...not far away...etc...all excuses
> 
> and they said that sailing basically sucked...whats the point when you can play soccer(main sport down here) or ride motocross etc...
> 
> this at very high end private schools...in public schools in poor communities guess what?
> 
> parents were as happy as can be to have their kids do something other than be parts of GANGS...which is a huge deadly issue down here
> 
> goes to show...reality is different for everyone as is where you live, grow up and work etc...
> 
> I miss this job tremendously as I felt I was not just working but spreading the word if you will...


obviously, they found a way to get kids into sailing programs. it could be that Christian can supply the answer to this question.


----------



## unimacs

captain jack said:


> when i was a kid, my parents shared their music with us. they shared their movie interests with us. my mom read to us. we worked on the cars or around the house with my dad. they both told us stories of their younger lives. my dad shared motorcycles with us. basically, they shared themselves with us.
> 
> you just don't see a lot of that, now. it's off to after school activities then it's away from the folks, in their rooms, on the net or gaming.
> 
> what's that one phone ad? the family is on vacation, but each one of them is doing something totally different. none of them spending any time together. but they all have phones so they can have 'family' vacation 'together'...because they have phones to connect them. yeah. that's an ad but not terribly far from reality.
> 
> i think sailing is no longer a family activity partially, maybe mainly, because families don't do things together.
> 
> so, how do you get sailing to be a family activity when families rarely do anything together?


As a new parent you really want to do the best for your kid and you get lots of input 

You'll be told that your kid should play an instrument because that will help them grasp math. You will be told they should learn a second language because that's a valuable skill and it's easier for them to learn when they're young. You'll be told that they should play a sport because they'll learn how to work in a team setting and it will help their self confidence.

And on, and on, and on.

Nobody tells you that your kid should learn how to sail. 

To your point though I think people are starting to realize that sending their kids off to do all these things in lieu of doing things with them isn't a great idea either. What would improve both sailing and other programs targeted at kids is to get the parents involved too.

Want you kid to learn Spanish? Great, you're coming to class too !

Want to your kid to learn to sail? Awesome. Grab a PFD and hop in.

There is a method of teaching piano that takes this very approach and it works well for parents who always wanted to learn how to play piano themselves but never did.

But I think approaches like that may not always work because one motivation for parents to enroll their kids in activities is to give themselves a little break.


----------



## ctl411

The sailing industry needs to get more girls/women into sailing. Half of the population is not involved much. Bonus of doing this, if girls are sailing boys will follow.


----------



## captain jack

ctl411 said:


> The sailing industry needs to get more girls/women into sailing. Half of the population is not involved much. Bonus of doing this, if girls are sailing boys will follow.


that's true, on both counts. however, there is an article that someone posted in the 'is sailing sexist' thread that claims that women, as a group, are starting to take up sailing. if that is so, then that area is covered. personally, i am eagerly awaiting the arrival of all the sailor girls, in my area


----------



## Donna_F

captain jack said:


> that's true, on both counts. however, there is an article that someone posted in the 'is sailing sexist' thread that claims that women, as a group, are starting to take up sailing. if that is so, then that area is covered.


And I think there are more women who read the forums than is made obvious by the user names.


----------



## captain jack

DRFerron said:


> And I think there are more women who read the forums than is made obvious by the user names.


probably true, as well. i know of at least one guy whose user name confuses you into thinking he is a woman. i am certain it works the other way around.


----------



## captain jack

although, i will admit to not having yet seen this influx of women. at least in my area, usually, if you see a woman sailing, she is with a guy. now, i can't be sure it's the woman sailing with her guy or the other way around, however it hasn't changed since before women had supposedly started sailing more. so, i am not sure


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## Donna_F

In the end we can't force anyone to do what they don't want to do. When I started diving I tried to get my female friends interested, no interest at all. Same with my boats. I'm on my second working towards my third and my closest female friends have yet to step foot on either of them. I don't push it. I value the friendship more.


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## captain jack

DRFerron said:


> In the end we can't force anyone to do what they don't want to do. When I started diving I tried to get my female friends interested, no interest at all. Same with my boats. I'm on my second working towards my third and my closest female friends have yet to step foot on either of them. I don't push it. I value the friendship more.


i quite agree. not every activity is for everyone. i have had abetter luck, than you, i guess. every girlfriend i introduce to sailing has enjoyed it. however, they didn't pursue it, on their own, after we broke up. you see a similar trend in the motorcycle world.


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## unimacs

Apparently boat ownership is in decline in general, not just sailboats.

If you follow the link you'll see some interesting stats. A lot will very regionally but some things stood out for me. 50% of boat owners have a net worth of 1 million or more. Less than 14% of boat owners have an annual income of less than $75,000. The median income in the US is about $55,000 which pretty much tells the story. Boat ownership is for the affluent.

I would guess that those numbers aren't entirely accurate here in Minnesota and I think that's because more people have easy access to water and the typical boat is going to be smaller and less expensive. On the other hand I'm sure that a high percentage of people owning lake property have a net worth of a million or more.

Since women have been brought up in recent posts, I know that one area for growth in power boating locally has been in clubs or rentals, and significant numbers of the people using clubs or rentals are women.

I have to believe one reason for that is that while there are plenty of guys who don't mind or even enjoy working on their boats, that number is probably smaller when it comes to women. So, if you an provide a way to enjoy the benefits of boating while minimizing the hassles, it's a winning combination.


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## Spiny Norman

unimacs said:


> I think thats probably true. Boat ownership is either out of reach or too much hassle for many people, - young or old.
> 
> Rather than advertising boats, perhaps what should be advertised it opportunities to sail and/or learning to sail. Seems like I run across advertisements for flying lessons or diving lessons fairly frequently. I can't say the same for sailing but maybe I'm just missing it.


This makes sense. There needs to be room at the table for those who can't or won't commit to boat ownership, at least not right now. Perhaps a combined gym/timeshare model? $500 to sign up and monthly memberships based on when and how often you need the boat? (Cheap on weekdays, rising on week-ends, etc.) Oh, and you're welcome in the clubhouse. There will be opportunities to crew. That kind of deal could work, but it would be a different sort of club - a sailing club rather than a yacht club.


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## unimacs

Spiny Norman said:


> This makes sense. There needs to be room at the table for those who can't or won't commit to boat ownership, at least not right now. Perhaps a combined gym/timeshare model? $500 to sign up and monthly memberships based on when and how often you need the boat? (Cheap on weekdays, rising on week-ends, etc.) Oh, and you're welcome in the clubhouse. There will be opportunities to crew. That kind of deal could work, but it would be a different sort of club - a sailing club rather than a yacht club.


Here's what I know of locally:

The sailing club I belong to costs $250 annually but there is a $50 discount for returning "skippers". The term "skipper" has an important meaning in this club and it's granted to those that have gone through a process that appears to be roughly based on the ASA-101 course. Prior to completing that process you can only sail with an approved skipper. There are two club sailing days per week where new members are matched up with current skippers to work on getting the new member through the process.

Once you have "skippered out" you can use the club boats any time you wish and you can race them with the yacht club that shares our shed. There is a big catch however and that is once you've skippered out, you are expected to sign up as one of the training skippers for two club sailing days a month. This is problematic for people who aren't comfortable with or just don't want to teach. The club currently has 3 types of dinghies (around 16 boats in total) and is considering the purchase of small keelboat.

This club sails on a smallish city lake. For reference, a mooring on city lakes costs $450 per year. This club is quite popular and hard to get into. It grew out of the sailing club at the University of Minnesota which struggled to maintain any sort of membership.

Keelboat options on larger lakes include sailing clubs associated with yacht clubs that will charge anywhere from $500 for 3 uses of a small keel boat to $3,000 (annually) for unlimited use of 20 to 27 footers plus access to the clubhouse.

Finally, an option I didn't realize existed is a family membership to the yacht club that shares our club's storage shed. It's only $40 and apparently includes access to clubs Optimists and two 420s. The kids are expected to have some sailing skills already but that's a pretty good deal if true.


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## outbound

Interesting statistics on net worth and annual income. Guess they apply at the point these folks buy the boat not after a year or two of boat ownership:laugher

But still think this is a general trend. Kids would rather do the videogame of dirt biking than get on a dirt bike.
Kids have no interest in becoming gearheads.
Kids have little interest in going hunting or fishing.
Kids get their nature fix in controlled environs.

Sailing requires you to be self reliant not able to crowd source a decision that needs to be made there and then.
To be open to the unpredictable.
To appreciate the beauty of nature even when that beauty is uncomfortable and potentially dangerous.
In short to experience natural events without there being predigested and served up at your convenience. As with the activities mentioned above they are all falling out of favor in the age when your IT guy is the most important person in your life.


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## unimacs

outbound said:


> Interesting statistics on net worth and annual income. Guess they apply at the point these folks buy the boat not after a year or two of boat ownership:laugher
> 
> But still think this is a general trend. Kids would rather do the videogame of dirt biking than get on a dirt bike.
> Kids have no interest in becoming gearheads.
> Kids have little interest in going hunting or fishing.
> Kids get their nature fix in controlled environs.
> 
> Sailing requires you to be self reliant not able to crowd source a decision that needs to be made there and then.
> To be open to the unpredictable.
> To appreciate the beauty of nature even when that beauty is uncomfortable and potentially dangerous.
> In short to experience natural events without there being predigested and served up at your convenience. As with the activities mentioned above they are all falling out of favor in the age when your IT guy is the most important person in your life.


To the extent that that might be true it's easily reversible. Our kids enjoy video games probably as much as any other kid but it's not hard to get them outside. They LOVE any kind of trip including camping. Spending time in the water is just about their favorite activity. Boating or sailing to them isn't all that exciting in and of itself. As far as they're concerned the only thing a boat is good for is taking them some place new to swim. As further evidence, they don't really like kayaking but they do like paddleboarding. Why? because they tend to fall in while paddleboarding.

It's only recently that I've tried to introduce sailing in any real way. My son is probably a lost cause but there is hope for my daughter.

Trust me. Kids are still kids and when we get that first major snowfall of the year in the next couple of weeks just about every kid in the neighborhood will get out to enjoy it.


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## Spiny Norman

unimacs said:


> Here's what I know of locally:
> 
> The sailing club I belong to costs $250 annually but there is a $50 discount for returning "skippers". The term "skipper" has an important meaning in this club and it's granted to those that have gone through a process that appears to be roughly based on the ASA-101 course. Prior to completing that process you can only sail with an approved skipper. There are two club sailing days per week where new members are matched up with current skippers to work on getting the new member through the process.
> 
> Once you have "skippered out" you can use the club boats any time you wish and you can race them with the yacht club that shares our shed. There is a big catch however and that is once you've skippered out, you are expected to sign up as one of the training skippers for two club sailing days a month. This is problematic for people who aren't comfortable with or just don't want to teach. The club currently has 3 types of dinghies (around 16 boats in total) and is considering the purchase of small keelboat.
> 
> This club sails on a smallish city lake. For reference, a mooring on city lakes costs $450 per year. This club is quite popular and hard to get into. It grew out of the sailing club at the University of Minnesota which struggled to maintain any sort of membership.
> 
> Keelboat options on larger lakes include sailing clubs associated with yacht clubs that will charge anywhere from $500 for 3 uses of a small keel boat to $3,000 (annually) for unlimited use of 20 to 27 footers plus access to the clubhouse.
> 
> Finally, an option I didn't realize existed is a family membership to the yacht club that shares our club's storage shed. It's only $40 and apparently includes access to clubs Optimists and two 420s. The kids are expected to have some sailing skills already but that's a pretty good deal if true.


That sounds - awesome.


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## Spiny Norman

outbound said:


> As with the activities mentioned above they are all falling out of favor in the age when your IT guy is the most important person in your life.


I'm the IT guy. And I sail to get the heck away from those people.


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## outbound

Guess I didn't put it well. I don't think it's the kids. I do think it's the environment they live in. Remember bringing my youngest daughter to hunting camp. No flush toilet, Heat only from wood stove. She got there are cried. Next day after falling off the snowmobile when I went to pick her up and dust her off. She said "Best day ever".


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## Spiny Norman

outbound said:


> Guess I didn't put it well. I don't think it's the kids. I do think it's the environment they live in. Remember bringing my youngest daughter to hunting camp. No flush toilet, Heat only from wood stove. She got there are cried. Next day after falling off the snowmobile when I went to pick her up and dust her off. She said "Best day ever".


Sorry, I was being flippant - I actually agree. Kids will adapt to just about anything, given half a chance. But if we raise them to look at people doing things rather than doing things for themselves, well... In my misspent youth, I took a bunch of scouts canoeing. One of them complained that it was hard work (it was), blisters hurt (they do) and - "that it took much longer than on television". I didn't have a good response to that last one.


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## unimacs

Spiny Norman said:


> Sorry, I was being flippant - I actually agree. Kids will adapt to just about anything, given half a chance. But if we raise them to look at people doing things rather than doing things for themselves, well... In my misspent youth, I took a bunch of scouts canoeing. One of them complained that it was hard work (it was), blisters hurt (they do) and - "that it took much longer than on television". I didn't have a good response to that last one.




My son was in scouts and there's an annual week long camp that the boys love because they have an opportunity to do some very cool things: sleep in tree houses, spend the night on two competing "Huck Finn" rafts on the lake, etc. The camp boasts that their fleet of Sunfish is the largest in the world. I have no idea if that's true or not but the boats could definitely use some work.

Anyway, that camp is a lot of work and the mistake the leadership often makes is downplaying that while telling the new scouts how great it's going to be. They have classes, they make their own meals, they walk several miles a day, and of course, it might rain for 5 days. They probably lose quite a few boys after that first weeklong camp that maybe would have stuck around if they had been better prepared for what camp was really going to be like.

It's all about setting expectations. Maybe they're afraid none of the new kids would go if they really knew. Anyway, I was surprised at how much my son enjoyed it. There wasn't that much else he liked about scouts but he lived for that camp.


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## unimacs

Spiny Norman said:


> That sounds - awesome.


I still think the keelboat options are fairly expensive. $500 to take out a 23 footer with a cubby for three 4 hour blocks is the cheapest and doesn't seem all that attractive.

The bigger boats are about $700 for 3 rentals or well over $1,000 for six. At those prices ownership starts get more attractive but slips or moorings on those larger lakes are much more expensive.


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## christian.hess

unimacs said:


> I still think the keelboat options are fairly expensive. $500 to take out a 23 footer with a cubby for three 4 hour blocks is the cheapest and doesn't seem all that attractive.
> 
> The bigger boats are about $700 for 3 rentals or well over $1,000 for six. At those prices ownership starts get more attractive but slips or moorings on those larger lakes are much more expensive.


I was thinking the same thing!

3000! for a 20 to 27 footer per year? and then I thought unless I got an awesome deal on such a boat like for $500

then 200 a month for a slip
then 200 for expenses per month for the boat and any fixes to get her in sailing conditions and you are easily over the $3000

for a new sailor this is exactly what you want...you want to sail and not bother with the stuff that makes it a chore

so I applaud this system even if at first it looks expensive

Unless you are the complete DIY guy or gal and fixing stuff pleases you as does learn while you fix...

options is what its all about.

I will say this however when I was in san francisco I could not find any place that would simply rent out a small keelboat for any amount of money unless you had to take long tests, pay a huge inscription fee...then be on a waiting list etc...etc...and I had a captains license! they still wanted all this other info and stuff...

in the end I bought a folkboat and had it in berkeley and bam sailing whenever I wanted no hassle...

just sayin


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## Spiny Norman

unimacs said:


> I still think the keelboat options are fairly expensive. $500 to take out a 23 footer with a cubby for three 4 hour blocks is the cheapest and doesn't seem all that attractive.
> 
> The bigger boats are about $700 for 3 rentals or well over $1,000 for six. At those prices ownership starts get more attractive but slips or moorings on those larger lakes are much more expensive.


That is a tad on the pricy side, admittedly. But for someone starting out, it may be worthwhile for a year or two.


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## captain jack

i think kids can adapt to a life without all the passive tech. my last GF had two little girls. they had always had cable TV. i got rid of cable years before. it was a waste of money. i never watch TV. there is too much life to live and useful activities to do. when they first moved in with me they couldn't stand the lack of cable. but, before long, we had family activities instead ofd separate TV time. if we dsid watch the tube, it was a rental movie we all watched together. and lifewas happier than it had been when there was cable.


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## captain jack

one point about boat ownership and those who can't afford to own. on most of the lakes around here you can rent canoes, kayaks, row boats, and some even rent john boats with outboards. but i can't think of any place that will rent you a small sailboat. so, you don't have to own a boat to use one of the other types of boat but you pretty much do have to own one to sail.


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## BentSailor

I don't think kids need to do "without the passive tech", they simply need to balance it with other activity. Parents also need to manage their time on it so that it doesn't become all they do.

For context - I am the IT guy for work, for the extended family, and (unofficially) for the local marine rescue. As I make (most of) my bread & butter coding for Apple & Android devices, there are a tonne of them lying around for the kids to use. They also have three consoles, two MacBook laptops, and a Windows PC for them to use. They love to play games on them *but* they are still out on the water sailing of a Sunday. I attribute this to two things:
*1.* "Electronics time" is limited to an hour per day *maximum*. No exceptions.
*2.* We all participate in the same activities. I play video games with them, they sail on the same day I do, and we all take turns picking a family destination (beach, park, playground, etc) or indoor activity (board game, card game, storytelling, etc). If you don't show them you consider their activities worth joining in - why should they consider yours worthwhile?

That said, having access to a boat of your own does make it far more accessible. That's not going to be a kid purchase or request at xmas - that's something the parents have to invest in... which leads to (in general) only parents who sail having kids who sail.


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## captain jack

BentSailor said:


> I don't think kids need to do "without the passive tech", they simply need to balance it with other activity. Parents also need to manage their time on it so that it doesn't become all they do.
> 
> For context - I am the IT guy for work, for the extended family, and (unofficially) for the local marine rescue. As I make (most of) my bread & butter coding for Apple & Android devices, there are a tonne of them lying around for the kids to use. They also have three consoles, two MacBook laptops, and a Windows PC for them to use. They love to play games on them *but* they are still out on the water sailing of a Sunday. I attribute this to two things:
> *1.* "Electronics time" is limited to an hour per day *maximum*. No exceptions.
> *2.* We all participate in the same activities. I play video games with them, they sail on the same day I do, and we all take turns picking a family destination (beach, park, playground, etc) or indoor activity (board game, card game, storytelling, etc). If you don't show them you consider their activities worth joining in - why should they consider yours worthwhile?
> 
> That said, having access to a boat of your own does make it far more accessible. That's not going to be a kid purchase or request at xmas - that's something the parents have to invest in... which leads to (in general) only parents who sail having kids who sail.


that's exactly what i was saying, with a similar example. you just said it in a different way. your kids are doing without all the passive tech. not that they live in a cave but that their access to it is extremely regulated and limited.


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## BentSailor

I suppose we've got different perspectives on what we call _"doing without"_ or _"extremely regulated/limited"_.

When I think of _"doing without"_, it means coping with the absence of something. I _"did without"_ video games as a young child because I simply didn't have a computer / console on which to play them. I, at times, "did without" meals during university because I could only afford to feed two people, so I would find an excuse not to eat so my wife & son could. And so on. That's how I understood the term - so that's likely where my disagreement stems from.

My kids, on the other hand, are getting access video games every day (aside from when they're grounded). It's just that they are not allowed to play them all the time in much the same way as not every meal of theirs has chocolate in it. I also wouldn't classify limiting one (of many possible) sedentary activities to one hour a day "extremely" regulated. Again, possibly a minor difference in how we interpret the phrase "extremely"


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## christian.hess

I like what you are doing with your kids bent...I just had my first newborn 3 months ago and thank God I have a boat I can call my own and its paid for etc...

it is completely true that those born into sailing will obviously become sailors in *75%* (EDITED FOR LESS VOLATILTY!)of the cases...and hopefully for me at least and my new family, instead of so much tv and video games activities will be going sailing, fishing, hands on stuff at the beach, games, etc...sports!

the issue I have today and the issue I will be having soon(and pertaining to the future of sailing if you will) is that for us down here at least you really really have to go out of your way to keep kids out of sedentary activities...

for instance parks are dangerous here unless they are in exclusive neighboorhoods, and traffic is completely a mess so driving to go play ball at a park really really is a hassle

sailing will be 1 hour to 2 hours away from us for example but I find it worth it cause we will be doing a family activity and not sitting eating pizza all day in front of the tv...

I think that for us today you have to be willing to accept some sort of outcast demeanor by simply not having your kid have a blackberry in 3rd grade or a full blown laptop in 6th grade and all sorts of virtual games and such...when your kids friends ask him or her what games does he have and he says we fish, we play ball we do outdoor activities by all means he will be the wierd one(hopefully a cool weird one) versus the status quo kids(no offence)

but that is just my take on things being a new parent for the first time! jajaja

I am extremely grateful for having a boat now...there were a few years there in my life that I went without a boat and or access to sailing water...so Im happy for this

too bad its such a project boat! jajajajaja


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## CaptainForce

christian.hess said:


> ..................... it is completely true that those born into sailing will obviously become sailors in 90% of the cases...and hopefully for me at least and my new family ..............


Maybe,- maybe not! Actually, most children do not want to follow in the steps of their parents. Our children, raised from infancy to adulthood aboard, have lives ashore in houses. Yet, they live with a simplicity and honor that reflects their childhood.
Did you choose to do what your parents did?


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## christian.hess

ok 75% I didnt exactly mean they would become exact same sailors, I think what I meant to say in a better way was that they(while still being children) would sail more and sometimes against their will...

as always you cant force a lifestyle but the chances of them sailing or possibilities are greater because its a family thing...

i guess 90% was pushing it jajaja

cheers

ps. I should also stress I was talking about sailing as a passtime...not as a profession...so I want to make that clear...

I didnt study political science at stanford like my dad, Im a cook instead...but my passion for sailing is the same, or more as I used to poke fun at him a while ago! jejeje


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## Stefman

My wife and i are 25 and we daysail and race a little in our Catalina 27.....sailing doesnt have to be expensive. After all once you have a boat its FREE! It just requires you to get off your rear and work a little!


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## captain jack

CaptainForce said:


> Maybe,- maybe not! Actually, most children do not want to follow in the steps of their parents. Our children, raised from infancy to adulthood aboard, have lives ashore in houses. Yet, they live with a simplicity and honor that reflects their childhood.
> Did you choose to do what your parents did?


my father rode motorcycles and took my brother and i riding. we both ride, now that we are grown. my grandfather built and poled flat bottom carvel planked boats on the monocacy river, i grew up to be a sailor. hmmmm there might be something to what he said.


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## Capt Len

When was the last time you asked some young people on the dock Help me carry these bags to the boat?? Want to come sailing?? Your concerns about potential litigation evaporates on their response of ' Duh,How much you pay?' 
'


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## captain jack

Capt Len said:


> When was the last time you asked some young people on the dock Help me carry these bags to the boat?? Want to come sailing?? Your concerns about potential litigation evaporates on their response of ' Duh,How much you pay?'
> '


and i'd pay someone to come enjoy a day of sailing, for what reason? i suppose if i had the kind of disposable wealth where i could just throw it about...

i'm not sure that hiring deck hands is a large scale solution to the issue, except for the rich.

although, perhaps, it might be a chance for the more well off in the sailing community to encourage future generations to sail. and, pehaps schools and yacht clubs could also take up that practice. while not something that all of us can do, it isn't a bad idea...for the people or organizations that possess that kind of capital.

for my part, i'd gladly offer some young person the chance to go sailing ( especially if she's cute  ) but i can't, very well, afford to pay them for it!

i think, at least in the US, there would be a very real risk of litigation, from disgruntled parents, if a strange adult tried to lure their kid onto a boat. i think a private individual would have to restrict that kind of thing to 18+ type young people. everyone seems more than ready to accuse everyone and their brother of improper behavior towards minors...regardless of presense or lack of evidence.

organizations, however, could advertise ( in free media like craigslist or the local bulletin board at the grocery store ) for young people to offer them the opportunity of income and adventure during summer break. it would be a sort of reverse sailing camp. normal sailing camp being where people pay you to take their kids sailing, instead of you paying kids to come sailing.


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## Lou452

Take a chance Columbus did ! :laugher I try to help by taking some one young or old out for a sail. Hey a 76 year old just set out to go around the world Young at Heart. 
Kind Regards, Lou


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## captain jack

Lou452 said:


> Take a chance Columbus did ! :laugher I try to help by taking some one young or old out for a sail. Hey a 76 year old just set out to go around the world Young at Heart.
> Kind Regards, Lou


that's totally awesome. kudos to him.


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## benesailor

> When was the last time you asked some young people on the dock Help me carry these bags to the boat?? Want to come sailing?? Your concerns about potential litigation evaporates on their response of ' Duh,How much you pay?'


I get what you meant. This is a matter of location than necessarily values of today's young people. I think young people far away from major metro areas are far more willing to jump in and help and would like to go for a sail. (without pay) In my marina the young people are more than willing to help. BUT, they are like family to me.

I have no loss of individuals that would like to go for a sail, old and young. In fact; i have to set aside some weekends that are for my family only as i have to many people that would like to go out. (I sail 3 days a week)

It's not that there are less people sailing today.... it's that the 60's generation has bought up all the waterfront and made it to expensive in most of the metro areas.


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## CaptainForce

benesailor said:


> .....................It's not that there are less people sailing today.... it's that the 60's generation has bought up all the waterfront and made it to expensive in most of the metro areas.


I know exactly how you feel. I grew up in the 60's and back then I could not afford any waterfront property because all those people from the "depression era" had bought all the waterfront and made it too expensive!


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## captain jack

CaptainForce said:


> I know exactly how you feel. I grew up in the 60's and back then I could not afford any waterfront property because all those people from the "depression era" had bought all the waterfront and made it too expensive!


ok. that gave me a good laugh. excellent wit!

but, his original concept is not invalid. the baby boom generation is the most populous generation in American history. it also happens to be a generation that was establishing itself during a time of incredible opportunity, one not exceeded ant time since. there is a lot of money in the baby boomer generation. because it's the way the world works, any activity or commodity that the baby boom generation took a lot of interest in became a big money thing.

motorcycles ( HDs to be most accurate ) are a really good example of this. motorcycles used to be a fairly inexpensive mode of ttransportation/hobby. then, in the 80s, the upper middle class yuppies ( with their mc mansions ) took a huge interest in motorcycles. the entire industry wanted to get some of that potential money so everything to do with bikes was aimed at, and priced for, the well to do baby boomers. it's gottren to the point that the original group of real bikers, that kept HD barely alive through the 70s and early 80s, can no longer afford a new HD. many of them are still riding around on their old worn out iron head sporsters and AMF era big twins. i have posted about this specifically earlier in this thread.

well, the baby boom generation latched onto sailing, especially cruising. the price of everything to do with sailing rose as the afluence of that generation rose. now, those in less afluent generations have trouble buying their way into boat ownership.

he is just saying the same thing about water front property. i don't think he's wrong. a lot of water front property belonged to less than wealthy people, much like mountain and back woods property does. that was when i was a kid. usually, river or bay areas ( outside of annapolis ) were places where you saw larry the cable guy type folks living. if you look around, now, you will notice, at least in my state, that most of the water front areas have become high dollar areas owned by afluent baby boomers.

well, people who grow up on the water are more likely to sail, or be involbed with boats in general, than people living an hour from the water. most baby boomer's kids have grown and had kids of their own, by now. so there aren't as many young people growing up with water in their back yards, so to speak.

i believe that is the point he is trying to make. it's not without merit.


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## TakeFive

captain jack said:


> ...well, the baby boom generation latched onto sailing, especially cruising. the price of everything to do with sailing rose as the afluence of that generation rose. now, those in less afluent generations have trouble buying their way into boat ownership...


Sailing costs rose because of the massive demand of baby boomers? You are joking, right?


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## captain jack

to support that idea, i am going to pass on the view of the boating world, as it was in my grand father's youth, that he passed on to me, as a boy. not enough time to write down any of his colorful tales but i can paint the picture painted by those tales.

to start with, my grandfather was not a sailor. i'm the first sailor in the family. but, he spent his entire life fishing and boating on the monocacy and potomac rivers in maryland. he built flat bottom carvel planked boated that his father taught him how to build. when i was a boy, until he died, he kept his boats tied up, on the monocacy. it wasn't tied at an official marina ad my grandfather didn't own any property. it was originally a place no one owned. later, when a family bought the property that ran down to the water ( a long way from the water because this specific place had a fairly steep bank and was heavily wooded. it had a path that led down to the water ), the new land owner was nice enough to grant my grandfather continuing acces to the water. so, his boat stayed tied on the water, to a tree, during the spring, summer, and fall. when winter was coming, we'd go down and pull the boat out of the water, stand it on end, and chain it to a tree.

he always had a motor on his boat but we never used it, that i can remember. we poled the boat up and down the river. even if the water is too deep to reach bottom, you can still pole a boat, if you know the art. i learned how when i was a young boy.

anyhow, when he was a young man, things were very different. most of the land, along the river, was not owned. some people owned houses, there, but there weren't all that many. and the government didn't claim all the unowned land, back then. they used to build their boats and just leave them tied to shore on unowned land. 

i don't know how many of you are waare of this but carvel planked boats need to be left on the water to stay properly water tight. there was a really funny story, i won't recount here, of a cousin of mine that tried to build one of his own but wouldn't listen when my grandfather told him how. that boat was visible, at the bottom of the river, for decades, when i was younger. that cousin always did think he knew everything. lol.

anyhow, they didn't have to pay for water access and they didn't have to trailer their boats to the water. they also didn't need security systems because everyone knew whose boat was whose and people back then were of a better character than now.

so, my grandfather ( and through him, myself ) had easy access to the water his whole life. naturally, if the river is your childhood playground, you are going to have a greater tendecy to grow up and be involved with boats.

it's a very different picture, now. generally, there are only three ways you are going to get water access, now.

1) you own waterfront land
2) you pay a marina
3) you trailer

none of those options is as inexpensive as things used to be. plus, if you are talking about sailing, the bodies of water you are sailing are more restricted , in type, than the bodies of water my grandfather could make use of. you can't sail the monocacy and you can't sail the potomac, for most of it's length.

in maryland, there are only three lakes you can sail:

lake seneca, which has a 20' mast limit, in montgomery county. 
deep creek lake, a billion miles from anywhere, over on the pan handle
and these little lakes, big enough for dinghies, in the town of columbia

seneca is really not very sailboat oriented, as far as lakes go. although, it is where i taught myself how to sail. but it has a shape that makes sailing very tricky, and even dangerous because of the way the land affects the wind. plus, there are a lot of underwater trees, from when the lake was formed, that are cut level with the water. they can be a real hazzard.

personally, until i started sailing the bay, this year, i stopped sailing in maryland 17 years ago. i had been driving an hour and change to hanover, pa to sail on lake marburg. that is a sailor's lake. but, there again, most people will have to drive a good way to get there..

other than that, you have to sail in the bay. that means that the largest majority of the population would have to drive an hour or better to sail.

it also means that most people will either have to trailer or have the money to pay a marina.

i would never trust just anchoring my boat out in the bay and rowing a dinghy ( which i'd have to trailer or car top ) out to my boat. the biggest worry would be that you just can't trust other people, now. when my grandfather was young, no one locked their cars or their houses. people used to be decent. it's a different world, now.


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## captain jack

TakeFive said:


> Sailing costs rose because of the massive demand of baby boomers? You are joking, right?


well, considering the fact that fiberglass boats made inexpensive sailboats available to average people, when they began, and there are no relatively inexpensive boats, now, and the biggest group to own boats is the baby boom generation....it's certainly not a rediculous thought.

that is EXACTLY what happened to the motorcycle industry, so the idea that it's ridiculous to think it's partially what happened to the sailing industry is, itself, ridiculous.

if younger, non baby boom age people were sailing ( specifically cruising ) as much as baby boomers, this thread wouldn't even exist. or, perhaps you are going to claim money plays no factor in limiting the number of younger people buying cruising sailboats? there is no doubt that, if i go down to the bay, right this minute, i will find that 90% of the sailboats berthed there belong to wealthier people...the largest portion of in the baby boom age group.

industries aim their marketing, and prices, at the section of the population most likely to make them rich. if you have a large wealthy group to exploit, you aren't going to market to a less afluent group or keep your prices low, for that afluent group. you are going to follow the money.

you may scoff but then i ask you, why is it that the prices of everything is higher in areas where income levels are higher....even if the business operates on a national level? it's because they know that people in wealthier areas can afford to pay more. so, they raise the prices, in these areas.

so, if you have a product, and you can choose between a large wealthy group or a much less wealthy group to aim your prices and products at, who are you going to aim for? i believe a look at the motorcycle industry will answer that question for you. the sailing industry is no different.

or are you going to roll your eyes and try to claim that doesn't happen and hasn't happened in any industry?


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## goboatingnow

Since this is a fact free discussion, it's impossible to reach a conclusion. What is known is that the recent recession virtually halved the boating industry. Personally I don't believe 20 years old were ever cruising , not today not yesterday. What I do see are very large groups of kids learning to sail , then you loose them while they buy houses and raise kids and then some come back to sailing 

The education cost issue is a red herring , because here in Europe most third level education is free or nearly free ( and funnily this was not always the case for European baby boomers ) nor in my view is it costs of boats. 

As I said I don't believe 20 year old ever made up any significant grouping in boats , yachts in the past were almost exclusively owned by a few wealthy people, today walk around any marina in Europe ( which is the worlds largest area for yachts) and you'll see lots of young families on boats.


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## captain jack

goboatingnow said:


> Since this is a fact free discussion, it's impossible to reach a conclusion. What is known is that the recent recession virtually halved the boating industry. Personally I don't believe 20 years old were ever cruising , not today not yesterday. What I do see are very large groups of kids learning to sail , then you loose them while they buy houses and raise kids and then some come back to sailing
> 
> The education cost issue is a red herring , because here in Europe most third level education is free or nearly free ( and funnily this was not always the case for European baby boomers ) nor in my view is it costs of boats.
> 
> As I said I don't believe 20 year old ever made up any significant grouping in boats , yachts in the past were almost exclusively owned by a few wealthy people, today walk around any marina in Europe ( which is the worlds largest area for yachts) and you'll see lots of young families on boats.


well, that's one problem with the original post. it's a bit general. it doesn't say whether the question is one of sailing in America or world wide. it does say the future of sailing but then it specifically addresses cruising. and, of course, it doesn't say what kind of cruising so there was a range of posts that assumes it meant blue water cruising.

living in the US, i have no idea how boating demographics might differ between different areas of the world. so, your guess is as good as mine. the initial assumtion/statement that is the foundation of this thread is that less younger people are cruising than before; that the baby boom generation, when it was young, cruised much more. this assumption has been challenged previously.

i haven't seen any actual statistics posted and the specifics of the thread have never been made clearer. so, you are correct, it's impossible to be sure what the situation really is. i believe the idea that less young people are cruising comes from industry concerns. however, the truth of the matter is that sailboat manufacturers are only concerned with people buying new boats. there could be a surge of people buying GOBs and the industry would still be worried, as long as they aren't selling new boats.

perhaps there is no issue at all, which has been suggested. perhaps, if you were to go around and collect actual data, without any marketing bias, you'd find out that it's only the sale of new boats that has been reduced.

one thing that you point out, however, does support the idea that cost of education may be an issue. you said that most college is free, there. you, then, said more young families, there, cruise than before. well, college is not free ( in fact, continuing education costs have risen sharply since i was college age ), here, and, at least according to this thread, less young people are cruising.

therefore, one might assume that there is a correlation between the cost of education and the frequency of young people cruising.

one thing for sure, the younger, 'millennial', generation has been the hardest hit, economicly, with higher unemployment ( and under emplotment ) rates than any group. and, although the black population has been the hardest hit ethnic group, that trend exists accross the ethnic range. and it is that age group that is the crux of this discussion. ( this statements is only for the US. i don't know about the rest of the world )

you say about this thread lacking facts. if this thread was about straight up facts, it would have been fairly short. it would have been a few posts listing actual statistics and then that would have been the end of it. since the industry is ( supposedly ) concerned with the 'fact' that younger people aren't cruising, i am betting they don't even know the 'facts'. if they did, it would be easy to reverse the trend. you just alter your marketing and manufacturing to account for the new situation.

i think that was the purpose of this thread: to get people's opinions from what they have observed. opinions are always debatable. however, if you gather enough opinions and observations, you might be able to figure out the facts.

i think it would be interesting to see the actual statistics, if there are any.


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## TakeFive

captain jack said:


> ...i am betting they don't even know the 'facts'...


Why to you assume that people who have spent their entire careers living and breathing boat design/manufacturing don't know their market? This seems to be a trend with you. People aren't as dumb as you think.


captain jack said:


> ...if they did, it would be easy to reverse the trend. you just alter your marketing and manufacturing to account for the new situation...


Demographic megatrends may be irreversible. People have less spare time, and more options of what to do with that time. The resulting alterations to boat manufacturing have come in the form of scaled-back production, pursuing high-margin market segments, and in numerous cases, boat builders going out of business. Supply and demand must match up, and in an environment of falling demand, supply must contract also.


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## captain jack

TakeFive said:


> Why to you assume that people who have spent their entire careers living and breathing boat design/manufacturing don't know their market? This seems to be a trend with you. People aren't as dumb as you think.


oh for f&%$s sake. no one is assuming anyone is dumb. must you always twist my words and intent? out of everything i said, you have to twist one sentence into something it wasn't so you can pick it apart and make a big deal about it.

since the pretext of this thread is that the industry is worried and since there are no statistics posted to show actual demographics and no information posted stating that manufacturers have taken this or that step to overcome the supposed problem (your statement of the industry situation is the first statement of such facts, in this thread) and because the nature of the original post suggests that a reason is not known, i was suggesting that there was a possibility that the industry hasn't figured out the problem, yet.


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## captain jack

TakeFive said:


> Demographic megatrends may be irreversible. People have less spare time, and more options of what to do with that time. The resulting alterations to boat manufacturing have come in the form of scaled-back production, pursuing high-margin market segments, and in numerous cases, boat builders going out of business. Supply and demand must match up, and in an environment of falling demand, supply must contract also.


this is a statement of pertinent fact which was, previously, missing in this thread; the kind i was talking about. couldn't you have simply posted it without going out of your way to take a hit at me?

i swear. most of the time, being involved with internet blogs is like being in an episode of some of that horrible reality TV my girlfriend watches; like 'the jersey shore', 'bad girls club' or 'mob wives'.


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## captain jack

attempting to hold a civil discussion of the issue....

scaling back production and aiming for high profit margin markets are examples of industry trying to grab as much immediate profit as possible. industry is often guided by share holders who want to see their profit margins as high as possible.

there have been a few posters that have pointed out a few areas where there could be actions taken to reverse the market trend.

one pointed out the increase in size of what is considered an entry level boat. bigger, more complicated, more expensive boats will reduce your market range. if you are trying to bring in a larger, less afluent market, more modest bare bones vessels might be an option, along with an appropriae ad campaign. past history is full of examples of businesses doing just that. 

for instance, trying to draw in the average American, rather than just the big bad biker type, Honda launchded a marketing campaign that included high quality inexpensive general purpose street bikes with an ad slogan of, " you meet the nicest people on a Honda." it was very successful, almost wiping HD out of the market for a little over a decade.

at a time when sailing was for the rich with their hand crafted wooden boats, Pearson produced less expensive mass production FG boats aimed at the average man. also very successful. 

both of these examples are of business choosing to make money by selling quantity, at a lower per unit profit, rather than selling a few high dollar items, to make instant wealth. it does seem to be a trend, today, that no one wants to pursue this course of action, preferring to make fast wealth.

sometimes, in order to avoid going out of business, you have to change your focus. kind of how pontiac avoided death by introducing the GTO, which was a big change of focus for them.

also, another poster sited an article that indicated women were an exploding demographic in the sailing community. however, i have yet to see any ads aimed at women.


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## TakeFive

captain jack said:


> ...scaling back production and aiming for high profit margin markets are examples of industry trying to grab as much immediate profit as possible. industry is often guided by share holders who want to see their profit margins as high as possible..


A few inaccuracies with this:

The US sailing manufacturers that I am aware of are all privately owned. They don't have shareholders demanding immediate payback. But like most small businesses, they are also constrained by limited credit - if they have negative cashflow for more than a few quarters, they go out of business because they run out of cash. You call it "immediate profit." They call it survival.

Even in companies that are publicly traded, I've never seen signs that shareholders want profit margins as high as possible. They want maximum profits, and if they can get them by lowering profit margin to increase volume, they will do it. But they won't settle for lowering profit margin unless the volume will compensate for it. This is not a bad thing - it drives efficiency in the marketplace. You seem to portray it as somehow evil or greedy ("grab as much immediate profit as possible").



captain jack said:


> ...if you are trying to bring in a larger, less afluent market, more modest bare bones vessels might be an option, along with an appropriae ad campaign. past history is full of examples of businesses doing just that...at a time when sailing was for the rich with their hand crafted wooden boats, Pearson produced less expensive mass production FG boats aimed at the average man. also very successful...


Well, Pearson is out of business, so it didn't exactly work out that well for them!

The less affluent market (which includes the vast majority of Sailnetters) is buying used boats. Many of them are the same Pearson vessels that you're referring to. And that may be a major reason why the manufacturers are walking away from small entry level boats - until a few more hurricanes crush up the existing inventory, there are too many available for cheap.


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## captain jack

TakeFive said:


> A few inaccuracies with this:
> 
> The US sailing manufacturers that I am aware of are all privately owned. They don't have shareholders demanding immediate payback. But like most small businesses, they are also constrained by limited credit - if they have negative cashflow for more than a few quarters, they go out of business because they run out of cash. You call it "immediate profit." They call it survival.
> 
> Even in companies that are publicly traded, I've never seen signs that shareholders want profit margins as high as possible. They want maximum profits, and if they can get them by lowering profit margin to increase volume, they will do it. But they won't settle for lowering profit margin unless the volume will compensate for it. This is not a bad thing - it drives efficiency in the marketplace. You seem to portray it as somehow evil or greedy ("grab as much immediate profit as possible").
> 
> Well, Pearson is out of business, so it didn't exactly work out that well for them!
> 
> The less affluent market (which includes the vast majority of Sailnetters) is buying used boats. Many of them are the same Pearson vessels that you're referring to. And that may be a major reason why the manufacturers are walking away from small entry level boats - until a few more hurricanes crush up the existing inventory, there are too many available for cheap.


you mistake me. i'm not trying to portray it as evil. seeking quick profit is just a different tectic. my statement was a generalized statement of maufacturing. i have no idea about the private or traded nature of boat manufacturers.

i realize that trying to grab onto the large money is a survival mechanism. however, you have to worry about the sustainability of such an income source. you have a good point. if builders do not have capital to take a different, possibly exprerimental, tack, then they don't have that option.

pearson went out of business....eventually. they were successful. not every company that eventually goes out of business was a failure.

people buying GOBs instead of new boats was something i had also mentioned.

the way i see it, it almost seems as if the industry has gone full circle. it started with expensive wooden boats being bought by a wealthy few, then it expanded to include the more average person with the introduction of less expensive FG boats, now it has returtned to the beginning as expensive FG boats have taken the place of expensive wooden boats.

honestly, even dinghies are very expensive now. you might know better than i why this is a case. however, the industry might see another cycle of average consumer boats if a new, less expensive, manufacturing process/material is discovered. everything tends to go in cycles.


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## captain jack

all in all, i am not sure that is a risk for sailing, as a sport or lifestyle. if you are into building boats, and you are involved with the wooden boat community, you will notice there are a lot of people building their own boats and it seems that the trend is increasing.


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## CaptainForce

I notice that at present times there's a huge number of old fiberglass boats that have deteriorated equipment, but sound hulls and they are available for less than the cost of the raw materials to build a wooden hull. In my cruising area, along the US East Coast, I've met many young individuals and couples that are moving aboard and/or sailing these older fiberglass boats. Admittedly, there are far fewer in the Northeast where the slips in marinas are so expensive, but from the Chesapeake and down to centra Florida there are many inepensive marinas. My nephew is lining on a Catalina just a few slips down from our current location.


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## Sal Paradise

My grandparents spent days and overnights with a large extended family on their boats. Few families could ever do that today. The main thing that made this possible was that everyone in my family - nearly everyone - lived in an apartment. And their wives stayed home and cleaned and cooked. So they had a ton of time. 

They didn't have to clean on Saturdays because the house was clean, the shopping was done. They had no lawns to mow, no house to paint, no roof to fix, no gutters to clean out. In March we went down to the boatyard en masse and scraped and painted the boat. 

Except for the boat and some savings, their standard of living was meager by today's standards but they didn't seem to know that. No one took a vacation in the carribean. They had only one old car per family. And didn't own real estate. They were perfectly happy in a large comfy brownstone apartment in Brooklyn, a few miles from the ocean. 

And so it seemed normal to us to spend a whole Saturday on the boat with grandparents, parents & cousins, eat dinner and even sleep overnight on board and come back home around 11 am Sunday in time to flop down in the living room and watch the Mets on TV and then fall asleep. We thought it was normal. 

Then relatives started moving to the suburbs and buying houses and with all that expense and maintenance and everyone scattered -and the boat just rotted away abandoned in a boat yard.


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## captain jack

Sal Paradise said:


> My grandparents spent days and overnights with a large extended family on their boats. Few families could ever do that today. The main thing that made this possible was that everyone in my family - nearly everyone - lived in an apartment. And their wives stayed home and cleaned and cooked. So they had a ton of time.
> 
> They didn't have to clean on Saturdays because the house was clean, the shopping was done. They had no lawns to mow, no house to paint, no roof to fix, no gutters to clean out. In March we went down to the boatyard en masse and scraped and painted the boat.
> 
> Except for the boat and some savings, their standard of living was meager by today's standards but they didn't seem to know that. No one took a vacation in the carribean. They had only one old car per family. And didn't own real estate. They were perfectly happy in a large comfy apartment in Brooklyn, a couple of miles from the ocean.
> 
> And so it seemed normal to us to spend a whole Saturday on the boat with grandparents, parents & cousins, eat dinner and even sleep overnight on board and come back home around 11 am Sunday in time to flop down in the living room and watch the Mets on TV and then fall asleep. We thought it was normal.
> 
> Then relatives started moving to the suburbs and buying houses and with all that expense and maintenance and everyone scattered -and the boat just rotted away abandoned in a boat yard.


that's a really cool background. sad ending, though.


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## captain jack

CaptainForce said:


> I notice that at present times there's a huge number of old fiberglass boats that have deteriorated equipment, but sound hulls and they are available for less than the cost of the raw materials to build a wooden hull.


that's something i have noticed, myself. recently, i have seen a $300 cal27( in glen burnie, md ), a $500 oday 22 ( in pa ), a $2500 tartan 28 ( in middle river, md ), and a few of other older cruisers for around the 2000 mark.

it's true. building a wooden boat is more costly than buying an older FG boat. my point about the number of people building wooden boats was simply that i didn't think the future of sailing was doomed, even if there was a decline in cruising.



> In my cruising area, along the US East Coast, I've met many young individuals and couples that are moving aboard and/or sailing these older fiberglass boats. Admittedly, there are far fewer in the Northeast where the slips in marinas are so expensive, but from the Chesapeake and down to centra Florida there are many inepensive marinas. My nephew is lining on a Catalina just a few slips down from our current location.


that's some good eye witness input. it supports the idea that the reduction in people cruising is actually more of a reduction in people buying new boats.


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## Sal Paradise

To me this Louis CK clip summarizes what this thread is all about-


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## Rhapsody-NS27

Sal Paradise said:


> To me this Louis CK clip summarizes what this thread is all about-


That was funny.

a lot of it seems to come down to so many people want to do something or want information or anything else, Now. Not later, but now. That instant gratification of getting what you want without having to wait for it.

Anyone just take a day off of work and watch traffic on a busy road and just think about it? All those people rushing off to their office or cubicle and always running around and trying to get things done as if life was a race and yet they never get to their perceived destination. They're always going out and trying to do more and get more and save more and... more. And yet, with the information and knowledge of the world at our fingertips, many are still not satisfied.

The guy in the video makes a good point when he says people should just go "Wow!" and be excited with everything that is around them and see how amazing the world around us really is. Not just the technology aspect but also the natural world around us. Seeing SV Lealea up in Alaska and seeing all the beautiful mountains and coves and natural surroundings is amazing. Being able to travel with the wind is amazing. Seeing videos of sailors cruising around the ICW or the Caribbean or all over the world, like Drake is doing on Paragon, now in Iceland, I think(?).

What I like about those who are documenting their adventures on blogs or Youtube is that they can share their adventures with others that could inspire many others. Unfortunately, for many of us, life gets in the way at times or others (like family members) talk people out of following their dreams to explore or be self sufficient and give up.

To see more people out there doing it will require more encouragement and mentorship to help people along. Thankfully, from what I've seen, there is a pretty good support group among the sailing/cruising communities.


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## captain jack

i think that's a large part of the issue. that basic idea has popped up several times in this thread. it's undeniable that our modern frame of mind has become exactly as that guy said. at least for a vast majority of people. people do their best during adversity. we don't seem to function as well during tmes of ease. give someone a difficult task and they will give it everything they have, as long as they don't have an easy out. give someone am easy task and they will only apply themselves enough to just barely get it done.

it's like down town frederick, md. that's where i was born and raised. it was settled by german and irish immigrants. if you look up, as you walk through town, you will notice the most beautiful architecture. fancy stonework and artistic designs. my father remembers, even when he was a little kid, how they dragged the big stones, for the banks on the square corner, in by horse. now, building stuff is relatively easy and everything we build is plain and unadorned...i'd say, ugly. it's sad that people who had to work so hard at everything they did could expend the extra time to build in quality and art, yet, we who can do amazing things with ease can't be bothered with either.


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## tv195

Just to add to this discussion. We are in our 30s and we are out there cruising, our boat is usually among the smallest in any anchorage, and we don't have all the fancy tools on board, but we are definitely enjoying every second of it!
Keep on sailing -
Chris


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## christian.hess

tv195 said:


> Just to add to this discussion. We are in our 30s and we are out there cruising, our boat is usually among the smallest in any anchorage, and we don't have all the fancy tools on board, but we are definitely enjoying every second of it!
> Keep on sailing -
> Chris


we are you eventually heading to?

well start cruising next year...as soon as our boat is ready down here in el salvador...


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## Group9

CaptainForce said:


> I notice that at present times there's a huge number of old fiberglass boats that have deteriorated equipment, but sound hulls and they are available for less than the cost of the raw materials to build a wooden hull. In my cruising area, along the US East Coast, I've met many young individuals and couples that are moving aboard and/or sailing these older fiberglass boats. Admittedly, there are far fewer in the Northeast where the slips in marinas are so expensive, but from the Chesapeake and down to centra Florida there are many inepensive marinas. My nephew is lining on a Catalina just a few slips down from our current location.


I agree. There has never been a time in my lifetime, when so many older, but still seaworthy, fiberglass boats are available at good prices for someone willing to put in a little sweat equity and some capital.


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## captain jack

tv195 said:


> Just to add to this discussion. We are in our 30s and we are out there cruising, our boat is usually among the smallest in any anchorage, and we don't have all the fancy tools on board, but we are definitely enjoying every second of it!
> Keep on sailing -
> Chris


that's awesome.


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## captain jack

Group9 said:


> I agree. There has never been a time in my lifetime, when so many older, but still seaworthy, fiberglass boats are available at good prices for someone willing to put in a little sweat equity and some capital.


that's what i am doing. 1971 cal27. $300. needs some work but it's seaworthy. structurally sound. need to find a motor, though.


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## Cruxandreams

I'm 24 and my girl friend is 23, we cruised from Baltimore to key west last winter on our cheoy lee clipper 33, and had a great 6 month trip. I bought the boat for the price of a used car, and financed the restoration with my construction job, so anyone can do it. We met a couple other youngsters, but less than 10 in total and all older than us, early 30's. There are plenty of cheap boats out there for the taking, the fact is anyone can buy an old boat, and finance its restoration with any old job. The key is to not get sucked into the American dream, and think you need a nice car, and fancy things to show everyone else how successful you are. Everyone has a nice car these days, simply put that money into a boat and you can go cruising. We originally planned to cruise to the Bahamas and beyond, but during the trip we realized what we wanted in the design of our cruising home, and decided to return home, sell that boat I bought for 4 grand for 30, and found a great deal on a spindrift 43 that we are currently restoring, hopefully we will be back cruising by next winter. Kids these days are too caught up in iphones and what ever cloths and superficial ******** they think they need to appear successful, in fact they are restricting themselves. The video games Im sure are a big reason too, why go out into the world for anything when you can sit at home and invade another country, or drive a stolen can, or what ever you want on your game system?
Also, jobs are out there, if you cant find or get a job there is no way you are going to be able to buy fix up and successfully cruise a sailboat.


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## luhtag

There's a few out there. I think it tends to go in cycles. Maybe with a plethora of cheap boats available we'll see more and more. 

I've been cruising since 23. I'm 39 now and cruise with me wife and three offspring. They're all under ten so they're young.


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## captain jack




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