# Man Overboard in New England area...mayday?



## Kiltmadoc (Nov 10, 2009)

This may be a dumb a question, but does a MOB situation in MA, ME or other nearby places constitute a Mayday call or Pan-pan call to the coast guard? 

I am asking because I am developing a series of checklists for my boat, including several "emergency procedures" checklists that even a total newbie could follow without screwing it up.

FWIW, if anyone wants copies when I have it all finalized, i can post them.


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## Undadar (Mar 24, 2011)

A radio call is not on the COB actions list in John Rousmaniere's book "The Annaplis Book of Seamanship". However; in my opinion, COB and someone lost at sea are two different things. If you actually lose a person (overboard and you cannot see or find them), I would think a call to CG is appriopriate.

[Edit] I think I responded too quickly. I was thinking of a non-life threatening type of MOB/COB situation (if there is such a thing). After reflecting a bit, I suspect the OP was talking about an actual life-threatening situation. Sorry about that.


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## jimjazzdad (Jul 15, 2008)

"A Mayday situation is one in which a vessel, aircraft, vehicle, or person is in grave and imminent danger and requires immediate assistance." - Wikipedia, but I have read similar in CPS and VHF course material. I think the Mayday radio call should definitely be on the MOB/COB checklist; it obviously would occur after all the immediate response items.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I am also interested in hearing the answer. You don't want to "cry wolf." In particular I am curious whether the skipper falling overboard with inexperienced crew kicks this up to "mayday" category. OTOH, if a crewmember falls overboard, is conscious and in sight, with an experienced skipper who knows MOB procedures, and weather conditions that allow for a safe retrieval, I would think mayday would be an overreaction.

But I'm just putting that out there for comment - I'd like to hear a more definitive answer from those who have actually been through it.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hello,

I would say the answer is 'it depends'. 

If you have a fully crewed race boat and someone goes over on a calm day, and the person is spotted and the crew can respond immediately, then no, I don't believe a mayday is required. 

If you are double handed in bad weather, and one person goes over, and the other person will have trouble stopping the boat and going back, then yes, do issue a mayday.

Barry


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## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

From what I understand there are two crew overboard situations - one in which a safe recovery is possible, and one where it is not (i.e. crew not in sight, conditions do not allow for a safe recovery, etc.). The designation of the situation is under the captain's purview. In the case of a safe recovery being possible, a pan pan is put out to alert other vessels in the area that you may be maneuvering to retrieve the crew member, for them to keep a lookout, not to come too close, etc. In the other case, there would be an immediate threat to life and safety (including the safety of the rescuers) so a mayday is appropriate. I have heard that the Coast Guard, in the past few years, has suggested Mayday for COB in all but the simplest of circumstances. This allows for them to be prepared in an expedient fashion to assist with a possible rescue. Keep in mind that you are supposed to relay as much information as possible during a pan pan or mayday - this would allow potential rescuers, such as the Coast Guard, to make their own assessment as to the severity of the situation. 

I remember a sailboat on Lake Champlain calling a mayday because they lost engine power and were uncomfortable sailing in the heavier winds. This may have been an uncomfortable situation for them (they didn't initially let anyone know they were a sailboat - not until the Coast Guard asked for a more specific description than "a white boat" and they mentioned that they were a sailboat with their sails down) but it certainly wasn't a life threatening situation. The Coast Guard downgraded the call and put out a request for a good samaritan or tow boat. The boat crew kept yelling at the Coast Guard in a rude fashion - "Coast Guard, it's been 15 minutes and nobody is here yet. When will someone be here??". Oh well. I do make sure to let any Coast Guard personnel know how much I appreciate their service as they will put their lives at risk to save yours. I can't stand listening to people complain about CG safety checks (don't confuse with local police safety "potty" checks)... is it so wrong for them to want to know that you have enough safety gear to alert them to issues (flares, sound devices, etc.) and keep yourself somewhat safe (i.e. life jackets within quick reach) until they get there? Sorry for the OT rant


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

RhythmDoctor said:


> I am also interested in hearing the answer. You don't want to "cry wolf." In particular I am curious whether the skipper falling overboard with inexperienced crew kicks this up to "mayday" category. OTOH, if a crewmember falls overboard, is conscious and in sight, with an experienced skipper who knows MOB procedures, and weather conditions that allow for a safe retrieval, I would think mayday would be an overreaction.
> 
> But I'm just putting that out there for comment - I'd like to hear a more definitive answer from those who have actually been through it.


I agree with RD and Barry... it depends.

Ironically in the 'skipper overboard with experienced crew' scenario the odds that the crew would know/know how to make that call comes into question so the checklist idea is a good one - though that also means making sure this 'new' crew can find it and knows that all the instructions really mean.

But, if someone goes overboard and despite best efforts, or because of conditions, you lose sight of them then I think that's a definite mayday call. In benign conditions one would hope you could get them back aboard and then assess the situation (you may still want to call for help if the victim, though safe, is suspected hypothermic)


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Unless you're in a race or a situation with a lot of boats around, MOB is a mayday call as far as I'm concerned, especially in our not-exactly-tropical waters up this way. Even if the call later gets cancelled, in the meantime you have help on the way and those few minutes could be the difference between retrieving someone or dragging a body out of the water. This was confirmed during a conversation I had with a CG chap a little while back, they would rather get the call, assess the situation and be able to react in time than have a call come through when it was too late.


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## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

Seems like a "No Brainer" at first, if it's life threatening make the call, if it's a calm day with no immediate danger don't. But then I started remembering all the times I've been out on casual sails or crewed races when something unexpected happens like a broach or wrapping a halyard around a forestay and how fast time and distance seems to slip by in those situations. Those time lapses can turn a fairly benign situation into a life-threatening scenario pretty quickly.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Crew in the water in New England most definitely has the potential to be life threatening. If your hand is on the radio, you tell me what you are thinking. Unless you feel certain to recover, its a Mayday call. 

The USCG is not going to launch assets simply because you called. They will assess and monitor the situation first. If you are not making progress or can't find the victim, they will be at the ready.


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## btrayfors (Aug 25, 2006)

With a fully crewed boat and if you judge that recovery will be difficult, then by all means have a crew member make the call to other boats and the Coast Guard.

However, and this is a big *H O W E V E R *, DO NOT WASTE TIME and CREW ASSETS ON THE RADIO when you could be better looking for/spotting/maneuvering, etc. for the overboard crew.

Unfortunately, given Coast Guard procedures any call will WASTE TIME....a lot of it...before you can get back to what you should have been doing, i.e., looking for the person overboard.

I have seen big, professionally crewed, very experienced folks LOSE THEIR BOAT while wasting time talking to the Coast Guard and relay stations.

This is not to denegrate the Coast Guard in any way....just a warning: you CANNOT make a call to the Coast Guard, give your position and boat name and situation, and get off in less than a few minutes. These could be critical.

JMO,

Bill


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Bill, 

You are right, but you are also not required to drop everything to answer their questions. Stand-by is a perfectly acceptable response while you do something more imminently important.


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

The OP was asking about a check-list. The problem as I see it, is that if calling the CG would put the on board crew at risk of losing visual contact with the MOB, then don't do it. In other words, don't take your eyes off the MOB to reach for the mike. 

OTOH, in the cold water of the Salish Sea, if there is a spare hand for the mike, I think a call to the CG as soon as possible would be a good idea. From listening to the CG respond to a number of mayday calls over the years, I don't think they mind one bit.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

... which brings up another point about the call, esp if it's necessary for inexperienced crew to make it.

I'm sure we've all heard the calls in the past in the order of "Help! Help! we're sinking" with no helpful information as to location, people involved, severity of situation etc. And we've heard the CG's attempt to get that info - often painful or the caller just doesn't know - either way time consuming.

Could an inexperienced crew read the position off the GPS even if the checklist told them to? I wonder.....

We had a notable storm last Easter here in Georgia Strait..there was a major yacht race underway (which had been abandoned) and there was a serious COB incident. 50+ knots of wind, 2 people in the water rapidly drifting away, quite separated from the yacht they were on, which had swamped. A passing yacht picked up two of them, making the mayday call due to conditions. It took some major heroics, the assistance of a large ferry as a windbreak and a great deal of luck and perseverance before both were saved.

In that case the mayday call was a no-brainer, ( the ferry wouldn't have known about the incident without the call) the subsequent recovery sheer guts and determination ( imagine being in an itself-somewhat-crippled J-30 in those conditions, and managing to recover 2 hypothermic non responsive COB).... pure heroics in my book.


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## Kiltmadoc (Nov 10, 2009)

My issue was not so much in terms of the actual retrieval of crew/captain/4 .5 year old child as it was the water temperature. Having grown up around Northern California, and surfed on Hamptom Beach, I know that the water can be damned cold. Having watched: Cold Water Boot Camp
I was more concerned about the issue of hypothermia/exposure. Since I am in a sailboat that, at best, does 8 knots, it could be a LONG time before someone who has fallen overboard, struggled for survival, been recovered...gets to a truly warm location.

Therefore, does simple exposure to 40 degree water with some seawater down the gullet, panic amongst the people on the boat and the MOB in the water warrant a mayday or Pon-Pon call...once everyone is back on the boat?


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

Kiltmadoc said:


> Therefore, does simple exposure to 40 degree water with some seawater down the gullet, panic amongst the people on the boat and the MOB in the water warrant a mayday or Pon-Pon call...once everyone is back on the boat?


Taking into consideration your points
- "simple exposure to 40 degree water"
- "some sea water down the gullet"
- "everyone is back on board"
The simple answer is "No." The person is no longer in "grave and imminent danger" because they are back on board, you have ways of warming them up and they are not likely to die before you can resolve the matter yourselves; This means it is not a distress (mayday) call.
Now, it would be a judgement call about whether an urgency (pan-pan) call is warranted. Does the safety of that person warrant outside aide or are you able to handle the problem yourself?

I don't believe panic warrants either a distress or urgency call so that should be taken out of the equation. Hopefully the skipper is able to handle that.

Changing the assumptions above would, of course, change the outcome.
-- 40F/5C water is very cold so if it wasn't just "simple exposure", say prolonged exposure like 15-30 minutes, then yes that person is at risk of hypothermia. So many variables here affect the time in the water; Are they dressed in off-shore clothing? Or t-shirts and shorts? Is their head exposed? Are they fat or thin?

-- "Everyone is back on board" is a good start! Without this assumption, then it is definitely a distress call.

-- "Some seawater down the gullet"... well, a LOT of seawater down the gullet means the person is drowning and again, may warrant a distress call if you can't revive them.

The correct answer has been given above; "It depends." There isn't a one-size-fits-all answer.


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

Kiltmadoc said:


> I was more concerned about the issue of hypothermia/exposure. Since I am in a sailboat that, at best, does 8 knots, it could be a LONG time before someone who has fallen overboard, struggled for survival, been recovered...gets to a truly warm location.


I think the decision you are talking about is really independent of the MOB. If you have a medical emergency that requires EMS intervention quicker than you can get to port, then a mayday is appropriate. If you can't warm up a crew member who is suffering from hypothermia, then that is an emergency. However most of the time, if you have a cabin, you should be able to warm the person up adequately. Again, as Jordan said, it all depends.

Dave


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

When I sail with friends who don't know MOB procedures I tell them that if I go in the water they should call the CG and show them how to do it.

I'm not sure a Mayday call is the answer. It is possible to simply call them directly....as in... "United States Coast Guard, USCG, USCG, this is the S/V ______. They answer and you advice them of your situation.

A mayday call might be more applicable if there where other boats in the area that would render faster assistance.

YMMV


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## benajah (Mar 28, 2011)

BarryL said:


> Hello,
> 
> I would say the answer is 'it depends'.
> 
> ...


"it depends"is a good answer. The best answer has to do with basic reason. If a man goes overboard in 76 degree calm seas off of Miami, it is not a mayday, he went swimming. Go pick him up. If a man goes overboard off the coast of AK, yeah it is a mayday. If a man goes overboard in SF Bay, it is a judgement call.
You can cancel a mayday. It is a notification to the military that you have an emergency that needs to be both prepped for and responded to. If you cancel a mayday, because you picked up a man overboard who is hypothermic and you are warming him, the coast guard will appreciate your ability, and want to help if they are needed. dont forget that all military personnel are just regular folks.
Best story I know is a good friend of mine, a coast guard O3, who went out with some friends of his on liberty, got into trouble and had to be rescued by his own subordinates, the actual guys that worked for him.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

*judgement call*

I think the "it depends" answer is the right one.

Yes, the water is cold in Maine. Even with a wet suit that first trickle seeping in can take your breath away. But unless you are very close to a coast guard asset, they are unlikely to get to you quickly. If you are short handed, and you put someone on the radio, you are taking your assets away from immediate self directed recovery. The coast guard is going to need information to be helpful. You can anticipate some time spent on the radio to provide that information so they can help.

On the other hand, other nearby boaters might hear your call and come to help. A coast guard boat might be close by and get there quickly. You might have enough crew that you can have someone on the radio, someone keeping and eye on the person in the water, and someone at the helm.

So are you better off handling the situation yourself, with the crew you have, or getting help that could take some time to get to you? In cold water you don't have much time. On the other hand, if you don't ask right away, the time to getting additional help is even longer.

Its a judgement call, situation dependent.


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## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

I think the situation where the person has been brought aboard with some degree of hypothermia or ingested water at least warrants a call to the Coast Guard, especially if the rescuing boat is not close to medical attention. As I understand it, it is possible to drown later from water in the lungs even if apparently rescued. It is called dry drowning -- here is an article about it: S.C. 'Dry Drowning' Death Draws Attention . This could constitute a medical emrgency in which life is in danger, and might require assistance.


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## centaursailor (Nov 7, 2010)

In my view some one overboard in open water is a May Day. 
In many cases in sailing mags what at first appeared to be a non life threatening scenario can turn decidedly dangerous due to over confident skippers or poorly thought out recovery attempts.
RYA Day Skipper courses here have a May Day call as part of the recovery process.
Safe sailing


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Jon, I'd side with the "it depends" but suggest that IF SOMEONE NEEDS THE CHECKLIST for a MOB, they probably should put someone on the radio and call for assistance. And probably should be calling Mayday because, again, _if they need to use a checklist and they need to debate the situation, _the guy in the water is in trouble.

Especially if the checklist is for newbs and guests and the MOB is the only sailor on or off the boat.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

I think the Coast Guard would rather you "over react" rather than you "under react". The call can always be down graded. 

Probably a lot less paper work to do on a May Day call that gets down graded as compared to pulling a body out of the water.

But as others pointed out, you need to decide are you going to waste time making the call when you should be keeping your eyes on the victim. I have a hand held vhf that I could use (if it could reach the coast guard station). These personal epirbs and hand held water proof vhf's are getting so cheap now maybe every crew member should have one- especially in rough offshore conditions or at night. With the hand held vhf a crew over board could communicate with ship and personal e pirb could locate the person if visual is lost. Also available are the crew overboard locator/alarm devices.

Also, the DCS on a VHF could be pushed and this would free you to go back for the recovery, until you have time to speak to coast guard.


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## tamarinera (May 15, 2011)

Given that you're asking the question in order to make protocol lists that even a newbie could follow without "messing it up," then it doesn't sound like you want judgement thrown into the mix. I would then agree with other posters: go for MayDay. 

I'm curious, then: who in your protocol is making the call over the VHF? Because in my training on commercial passenger boats, calling Coast Guard was never in the drills. Everyone on board is doing something to get the crew back. No time or space for VHF calls, except between mother ship and small boat. If there's no small boat, then all communication should be about getting the person back, all eyes on the person or on the job. VHF calls would wait until recovery on your own was not possible...and that by default makes it a MayDay.


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## Kiltmadoc (Nov 10, 2009)

FWIW, here's what I have been drafting for MOB and May Day calls. The idea of the checklists, for me, was to allow "anyone" on board to do things correctly. From my pilot training, if there is another person on board, that person helps makes sure the checklist is followed and nothing is missed. I envision these checklists for use when people are out on a day sail and something goes wrong. Usually, when we go, there are 4-6 people on board. 

Without further ado, here's the checklist for this situation:

MAN OVERBOARD

1. Stop boat

2. One person keeps eye on MOB and points

3. Throw flotation device to MOB (if in range)

4. Turn back to MOB

5. Throw lifesling just past MOB on either side

6. Circle MOB until they catch lifesling

7. Engine in neutral when MOB has the sling in hand

8. Haul in MOB by hand

9. Drop stern ladder into water (remove bungy cord first)

10. engine to OFF

11. Haul MOB back on board
you may need to use the pulleys on the aft-end of the boom to help haul aboard

12. Wet clothes need to be removed ASAP

13. Space blanket is in Cabin

14. Call coast guard on channel 16 if needed


*** *** ***

MAY DAY CALLS

CHANNEL 16 on VHF radio

Set radio to “HIGH” to transmit high power


For a situation with imminent threat to life - a call to any radio operator listening.


MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY


This is sailing vessel _____


Again sailing vessel ______

I say again sailing vessel _____


Position
GIVE LOCATION.


Problem
DESCRIBE SITUATION (lost MOB, fire, serious injury etc)


32 foot sloop white hull, with RED and BLUE STRIPES.


People on Board
NUMBER OF people aboard.


Requesting immediate assistance. OVER


LET GO OF THE MIKE BUTTON!


Listen for 15 seconds and then repeat.


IF NO RESPONSE:
wait 2 MINUTES and repeat


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

My GPS (Garmin) has a MOB button. You push that as soon as a Man goes Over Board. Then you have the GPS coordinate and the GPS will give you instruction to go back to that point. 

This still takes time to do and if you have a visual, I would maintain the visual and not deal with the GPS unless another crew member is available to use the MOB on the GPS. Even using the MOB button is kinda hard as you need to hold it for a set time. In a crisis that could be humbug. If coast guard is needed for rescue the gps coordinates are valuable so would be good to add to you check list is some way.

Another thing, the best thing to do is make sure no one goes overboard to begin with (as I think the recovery rate in the open ocean is somthing like only 50%).- Harness when outside cockpit all times, harness in cockpit during off shore or rough weather, harness at night-even in cockpit, proper jack line set up, proper life lines, proper sail reefing.


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## EJO (Jan 10, 2010)

yea it is always life threatening when your in the ocean as the ocean has big fish called sharks Mayday mayday. 
But seriously in colder Northern waters time is of the essence and if crew is inexperienced a CG call/Mayday is appropriate, even if the crew is experienced a call might help save a life. (See below)

Following are Water Temperatures in °F & (°C), with Expected Time Before Exhaustion or Unconsciousness, and Expected Time of Survival
32.5°/(0.3°); < 15 minutes; 45 minutes
32.5-40°/(0.3-4.4°); 15-30 min.; 30-90 min.
40-50°/(3.3-10°); 30-60 min.; 1-3 hrs
50-60°/(10-15.6°); 1-2 hrs; 1-6 hrs
60-70°/(15.6-21.1°); 2-7 hrs; 2-40 hrs
70-80°/(21.1-26.7°); 3-12 hrs; 3 hrs-indefinite
> 80°/(> 26.7°); Indefinite; Indefinite (shriveled but indefinite)

So down South you have a good chance if the sharks don't get you:laugher


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I'm not sure I'd agree with some of that.

"1. Stop boat" Hell no. If you stop a sailboat you lose weigh and you are adrift. Whether you are pulling a fast figure 8 or whichever method you follow, you don't stop the boat--you return to the MOB position. Stopping and restarting wastes time.

"4. Turn back to MOB" Ah, I read that as turn your back on them. I reread it to mean return to them--but that's something already happening in #1.

"7. Engine in neutral when MOB has the sling in hand"
Honestly, if I ever fall off your boat? Please do not start the engine at all. I know someone who was run over by a prop, it isn't a good thing. If at all possible, sail back and drift down on the MOB. If that engine is running, it can foul the recovery line or mangle the MOB, it has to be treated as a hostile player.

"9. Drop stern ladder into water (remove bungy cord first)"
Better to drop it sooner, to make sure it isn't dropped on the MOB. Stranger things happen.

Considering some of the timing issues, you may want to make item #2 or 3 "deploy the recovery tackle" because this can take some time, between getting the tackle you use out, getting it rigged, and having it ready by the time you are back to the MOB. Ideally, there's one man watching the MOB, another deploying the tackle, a third on the radio...lots of hands. In practice it will always be a chinese fire drill.

We have a dedicated 4-part block and tackle rigged with a snap hook to go on the boom, stored below and lashed with a little light stuff to keep it from fouling. Snap on boom, cut light stuff, and it is ready to hoist a MOB on deck, because the actual hoisting part of the recovery will be the hardest. (Hoisting just being one recovery option of course.)

But personally...to me the prop is Jaws, I'd rather not be in the same water.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Does anyone have any experience with a real emergency MOB and recovery?
Seems getting the person back on board is the hard part, especially in rough seas or the person is injured- might need someone to go into the water to put on life sling- now two people to recover. All in all a very scary proposition.


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## bacampbe (Mar 17, 2009)

For the mayday checklist item "GIVE LOCATION", how do you expect the crewmember to determine their location? Do you have a chartplotter in view of the radio? Does it always display lat/lon, or do you have to push buttons? Is it networked with your VHF? Is there a hand-bearing compass handy?


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

bacampbe said:


> For the mayday checklist item "GIVE LOCATION", how do you expect the crewmember to determine their location? Do you have a chartplotter in view of the radio? Does it always display lat/lon, or do you have to push buttons? Is it networked with your VHF? Is there a hand-bearing compass handy?


On other threads here and elsewhere I have been extolling the virtue of feeding your GPS's or chartplotter's NMEA output directly to your DSC radio (assuming you have both). Then a simple press of the radio's "Distress" button sends out your coordinates automatically. Most radios will also display lat/lon on their display when they get the info from an external GPS.

I ordered a GPS puck specifically to interface with my radio. I think it is that important. (If you've seen my threads on the subject, you also know I bought VHF radio with integrated AIS receiver, which makes additional use of the GPS fix.)

[EDIT: I just looked at the latest BoatUS magazine that came today, and page 26 has an article on this very subject. USCG estimates that up 90% of the boats that already have DSC and GPS do not have them connected together!]


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

RhythmDoctor said:


> On other threads here and elsewhere I have been extolling the virtue of feeding your GPS's or chartplotter's NMEA output directly to your DSC radio (assuming you have both). Then a simple press of the radio's "Distress" button sends out your coordinates automatically. Most radios will also display lat/lon on their display when they get the info from an external GPS.
> 
> I ordered a GPS puck specifically to interface with my radio. I think it is that important. (If you've seen my threads on the subject, you also know I bought VHF radio with integrated AIS receiver, which makes additional use of the GPS fix.)
> 
> [EDIT: I just looked at the latest BoatUS magazine that came today, and page 26 has an article on this very subject. USCG estimates that up 90% of the boats that already have DSC and GPS do not have them connected together!]


Are there any VHF radios that have the GPS built in? seems that would be the next step- GPS so cheap now even cell phones have it built in.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"GPS so cheap now even cell phones have it built in."
it is true, GPS chipsets in cell phones cost the maker less than $5 to add. That's GPS, not WAAS-enabled GPS, but adding $5 to the net cost of a radio still is going to drive the end price up $20 and that's going to hurt sales, so until folks start _demanding _it, it isn't going to happen. With cell phones, the incentive is all the geolocation software and revenue stream from the sales that may be placed on them. A lot more incentive, since the carriers sell the phones, and cna keep a percent of the sales, or the calls placed for the sales.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> Are there any VHF radios that have the GPS built in? seems that would be the next step- GPS so cheap now even cell phones have it built in.


Yes. Standard Horizon makes a handheld with a gps (only coordinates, no map) and integrated DSC. I bought one for my ditch bag. A bit over $100 IIRC.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Yes. Standard Horizon makes a handheld with a gps (only coordinates, no map) and integrated DSC. I bought one for my ditch bag. A bit over $100 IIRC.


What is the IIRC? 
I do not quite understand DSC. Say you have a MOB and you push the Emergency button. That sends out the emergency signal with coordinates. But what if you then go back to task of rescue the MOB and do not go back to the radio for say 30 minutes. Will the coast guard respond or will they wait for more information?

Also, I have a DSC vhf that was on my boat installed by previous owner. I understand the ID once programmed cannot be changed. Since prevous owner programmed, does that mean I cannot update the DSC information?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> What is the IIRC?
> I do not quite understand DSC. Say you have a MOB and you push the Emergency button. That sends out the emergency signal with coordinates. But what if you then go back to task of rescue the MOB and do not go back to the radio for say 30 minutes. Will the coast guard respond or will they wait for more information?
> 
> Also, I have a DSC vhf that was on my boat installed by previous owner. I understand the ID once programmed cannot be changed. Since prevous owner programmed, does that mean I cannot update the DSC information?


IIRC... if I recall correctly. I was trying to remember the cost. I went and looked it up. It was closer to $170.

Here is a good USCG doc on how it works.

www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg534/.../DSC_FactSheet Mar08 (2).doc


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

casey1999 said:


> What is the IIRC?
> I do not quite understand DSC. Say you have a MOB and you push the Emergency button. That sends out the emergency signal with coordinates. But what if you then go back to task of rescue the MOB and do not go back to the radio for say 30 minutes. Will the coast guard respond or will they wait for more information?
> 
> Also, I have a DSC vhf that was on my boat installed by previous owner. I understand the ID once programmed cannot be changed. Since prevous owner programmed, does that mean I cannot update the DSC information?


As I understand it (haven't actually done it yet), the USCG and other ships will respond verbally. You should ideally spend a few seconds to respond back, even if to say, "I have a man overboard and am too occupied to talk. Please send help/be on standby for further updates/etc." But they will have your coordinates automatically, without your need to read off a series of numbers.

The MMSI number is permanently tied to your radio. The prior owner should have cancelled his account to allow you to enter your personal information. As it stands now, if you push the distress information, the USCG will go into the MMSI database and pull up all of the prior owner's personal identifying information, including the prior owner's boat name, address, and home port.

More info here: https://www.boatus.com/mmsi/faq.htm



> *I have sold my boat & radio. What should I do?*
> 
> If you sell or trade your boat and radio with an MMSI number programmed into it, please be sure to cancel the MMSI account to make the number available to the new buyer. Once it is canceled we will know it is ok to reassign the number to the new owner should they enquire about it. Do not continue to use the same MMSI number with a new boat & radio as it would still be tied to the one you have sold! Instead, you would need to register for a new MMSI number for any new radio.


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## EJO (Jan 10, 2010)

Casey & RythemDr. mention it already, we as boaters (never satisfied with our current) always wanting another/bigger boat and therefore we as sellers should make sure that the broker and or buyer has all pertinent passwords, numbers, S/N etc. of the electronics on board.
I happened to get a Garmin chartplotter with the last boat I bought and it was a check mark in the plus/advantage column while comparing the boat to others.
But because I don't have the correct numbers I can't update/download new maps, rendering a perfectly working piece of equipment old and outdated.
$500 or so can fix this with a new piece of equipment rendering the sales price basically $500 off. I could have bought another boat without it and added the equipment. (not the only reason, but you get my point)
Make sure when selling a boat your MMSI, your DSC, your IIRC or whatever number and or passwords are released to the buyer.


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## Kiltmadoc (Nov 10, 2009)

EJO said:


> Make sure when selling a boat your MMSI, your DSC, your IIRC or whatever number and or passwords are released to the buyer.


Having just been through this myself, I can tell you that it's not that hard to get your garmin working again.

You need to create an account at mygarmin.com. You then need to register the chartplotter in your new account (most people dont do this, they just update the maps). To register, you need the serial number and the ID number. Both are on and in the unit respectively. Once you have done this, you need to connect the device to your computer at home with a garmin cable. Garmin will automatically detect the device, tell you which maps are valid, and what updates, if any, are available for download.

In my situation, I needed to buy a new cable. My new cable (bought used) came with a mapsource CD that was registered to a 3rd party. That person was kind enough to provide me with all the above-related info and I was able to download everything i needed (almost all the mapsource CD's come with 2 licenses). FWIW, this upgrade and so on was on an ancient gpsmap162 with obsolete mapsource maps (but better than nothing). Total cost to me was $20 (thank you ebay classifieds!)


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## Orion2 (May 20, 2011)

*MoB is a Mayday*

Under international rules an MoB should be immediately followed by a Mayday. A few years back this was not the case.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Orion, the international rules for or of What?!


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## SamHunter (Apr 28, 2011)

*May Day; Pan-Pan; Securite*

We seem to have a disconnect.

As I understand it...

*MayDay* (from "funny" french - M'aidez) is used only for severe and immediate threat of loss of vessel and crew. In other words, MayDay is only for when you already have or are about to abandon ship.

*Pan-Pan* (Pahn - Pahn) is for serious emergencies in which abandoning ship is NOT an immediate expectation.

*Securite* (Say-Cure-ee-tay) is an alert to other vessels about navigation issues, including vessels with problems that limit their (or other) vessel's abilities

Examples... IIRC, during the "Perfect Storm", a female "crewmember" issued a MayDay call, in violation of the skippers instructions, apparently because she was afraid. The vessel was fine, just that the crew was getting beaten up a bit in the nasty weather. The CG responded and forced the Captain and crew to abandon ship and be "rescued" because they had issued a MayDay call. The boat was later found washed up on a Carolina beach, perfectly OK.

The last times I heard a Pan-Pan was while sailing off the FL Panhandle. A dive boat had a guest with a bad case of "The Bends" which the Captain believed required immediate extraction and transport to a pressure chamber. There was immediate and life-threatening danger to a person aboard, but no danger to the vessel. I have also heard Pan-Pan used when a boat was in trouble (water pouring in through a failed through-hull) and the Skipper wanted others to know where he was and his potential dangerous situation. He set up a 15-minute schedule with a request tht other boats and the CG initiate rescue attempts if he missed a 15-minute call. That was later expanded to 30 minutes after the pumps started to get ahead of the jury-rigged repair, then cancelled as he made the coast.

I issued a Securite call after I had been sailing off Pensacola in rough weather and managed to snap off my rudder. I got a jury-rig effort working, simply steering with my little outboard after clearing away the remains of the rudder. When we finally reached a position near the outer markers of the channel to the Marina for which we were bound, I had my wife issue a Securite call to announce that a sailing vessel with a broken rudder and limited steering control was entering the channel. If it hadn't been for the nasty weather, I would not have issued any call at all (no danger to my boat or crew, no danger to others). I have also broadcast "Securite" when towing another disabled sailboat into a narrow channel, and once when I saw something large and ugly floating right at the water surface near a channel.

Note that a call to "Coast Guard" should ONLY be answered by the CG, whereas a Pan-Pan or MayDay could be answered (and maybe relayed) by any vessel.

Other comments???


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## bacampbe (Mar 17, 2009)

SamHunter said:


> *MayDay* (from "funny" french - M'aidez) is used only for severe and immediate threat of loss of vessel and crew. In other words, MayDay is only for when you already have or are about to abandon ship.
> 
> *Pan-Pan* (Pahn - Pahn) is for serious emergencies in which abandoning ship is NOT an immediate expectation.


I was taught that MayDay was to be used when the vessel, or a person on it, is in grave and immediate peril. I've never heard that it required an expectation to abandon ship.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

bacampbe said:


> I was taught that MayDay was to be used when the vessel, or a person on it, is in grave and immediate peril. I've never heard that it required an expectation to abandon ship.


Quite right; a medical emergency is a Mayday.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"MayDay is only for when you already have or are about to abandon ship."
Nope. Last I recall reading them, the US and international rules all specify that Mayday is reserved for "emergencies" and an emergency is specifically defined as ay situation where there is "_immenent _loss of life or property" or words to similar extent.

If you have lost control due to a rudder failure and you are in a busy channel? that's a Mayday call. Heading towards rocks or t-boning other boats in a a marine? Still a legitimate Mayday call. Your boat perfectly safe but a crew is having an allergic reaction and looking shocky? Again, a Mayday call.

Folks don't get it. Mayday is for emergencies, and there's a difference between "emergency" and "damned big inconvenience". Which is usually all that is involved when people think they are in an emergency.

When there is no _immenent _danger to lives or property, you no longer have a "distress" call, even if you have an "urgent" call:

"Urgent calls are made concerning the safety of a vessel or the safety of a person where assistance is required but where the situation is not one of grave and imminent danger." That's PAN PAN. ( VHF Radio Marine one of many citings on that.)

Been attacked by a giant narwhal, had a six inch hole below the water line, mast came down, but we've got it under control, we're just a little limited in our options and the weather calls for 40 knots and squalls coming up in six hours. We're five hours out of port, we think. That's PAN-PAN. Not a Mayday, _not yet._

And Securité is pretty much just a "Head's up, you're about to step in a cowpie" call. If you're about to bring a racing fleet across a shipping channel on a dark night, that's the right call.

Mayday? People just don't get what "emergency" means. On land or at sea. Like the woman who got arrested after calling 911 three times because there was something wrong with her cheeseburger at McD's. (For real!)


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

SamHunter said:


> Examples... IIRC, during the "Perfect Storm", a female "crewmember" issued a MayDay call, in violation of the skippers instructions, apparently because she was afraid. The vessel was fine, just that the crew was getting beaten up a bit in the nasty weather. The CG responded and forced the Captain and crew to abandon ship and be "rescued" because they had issued a MayDay call. The boat was later found washed up on a Carolina beach, perfectly OK.


This is so extreme that it sounds like more of an urban legend.

Do you actually expect us to believe that because an inexperienced crew member made a mistake over the radio by saying "mayday" unnecessarily, the USCG refused to downgrade the call and instead forced the captain to abandon a perfectly good vessel? That their asses were wound so tight that they insisted on creating a hazard (scuttled boat) that did not exist prior to the call, instead of just issuing a citation (or even a warning) to the person that issued the mayday? Even if they forced them off the boat, why would they leave the boat to wash up on the beach, instead of arranging a tow?

Please cite a reference somewhere to back up this wildass story. I'm not buying it.


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## SamHunter (Apr 28, 2011)

*It is in Junger's book as well as in news articles at the time*

No need for the sarcasm...

This is a well-known story. It was misrepresented in Junger's book, "The Perfect Storm" to read as if the Captain of Sartori had deserted his post and lay on his bunk awaiting death. The reality is that the women aboard went against his orders and issued a MayDay while he was busy and distracted. It would appear he wasn't even aware of the MayDay call until the CG showed up.

While there are many disputed "facts", one thing that is NOT in duspute (it is on the CG recordings, ... is that the Captain of Sartori tried forcefully to get the CG to back off as he was not in danger, had not issued the Mayday, and regarded it as unnecessary. The CG heard him, but still ordered him off the boat. Apparently, he even tried to get them to take the women (who wanted off), but leave him aboard. The CG ordered him off in no uncertain terms.

To quote the son of Ray Leonard, the Captain of Satori, the boat in question... "Kent Leonard [email protected] , 07/22/97, rating=2:
One sided view of the evacuation of the sailboat Satori

"I am the son of Ray Leonard, the captain and owner of Satori. The Coast Guard "rescue" of the crew and captain of Satori, as described in part of this book (The Perfect Storm), is based on one crew member's account and doesn't give an accurate impression.

The captain never wanted a rescue attempt. He knew that the small, solid boat could withstand the conditions it was in. The crew, in contrast, were very frightened and apparently issued the mayday call. When the Coast Guard came to the boat they ordered everyone off.

Even after she was abandoned, Satori continued through the storm with no damage, eventually being recovered from a Maryland beach. Another sailboat, the Stafka I, also sailed safely through the same part of the storm. [Junger] never contacted Ray Leonard, even though he devotes many pages to the "rescue" from Satori."

Another part of the story, with video of the actual "Rescue", is at: http://www.montgomeryuniversity.com/videos-perfect-storm-rescues-s-v-satori-[IIBDYVJFrHQ].cfm

Part of that story includes, "The Captain / owner ...
The Captain / owner didn't put in a mayday call. The woman who freaked out caused the problems. The Captain had it under control. He was a licensed Captain and the Coast Guard ordered him off the boat. He was worried about losing his license and having all kinds of grief from the CG. The next day he went to sea after a airplane found his boat sailing along just fine but they couldn't find it with vessel assist. It sailed on it&apos;s own till it beached itself. He recovered it with very little damage."

If you still do not believe me, just do a Google search on "Perfect STorm Mayday Sartori Sailboat", you'll find hundreds of references, both opinion pieces and news articles.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

If the Mother-in-law goes overboard it's a *Securite* call. It's a Pan Pan if the wife goes overboard. It's a mayday if I go overboard.


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## SamHunter (Apr 28, 2011)

*That about sums it up!*

:d :d


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## NautiG (Apr 23, 2007)

SamHunter said:


> We seem to have a disconnect.
> 
> As I understand it...
> 
> ...


My understanding is that:

MayDay is called when there is a life threatening emergency.

Pan-Pan is called when you are in need of some assistance. eg engine failure, perhaps an injury aboard. If the boat was in danger of being permanently disabled (such as being hard aground in hazardous conditions), I would issue a pan-pan first and then possibly upgrade it to a MayDay.

Securite is called for informational purposes, usually when there is a hazard to navigation such as a freighter entering or exiting a narrow channel, a log in the channel, or navigating in dense fog.

But I have never made any of these calls myself. I would make a MayDay call if crew were overboard in cold water, or if I felt there was a question I wouldn't be able to competently recover them myself.

Scott 
Gemini Catamaran Split Decision


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

SamHunter said:


> No need for the sarcasm...
> 
> This is a well-known story. It was misrepresented in Junger's book, "The Perfect Storm" to read as if the Captain of Sartori had deserted his post and lay on his bunk awaiting death. The reality is that the women aboard went against his orders and issued a MayDay while he was busy and distracted. It would appear he wasn't even aware of the MayDay call until the CG showed up.
> 
> While there are many disputed "facts", one thing that is NOT in duspute (it is on the CG recordings, ... is that the Captain of Sartori tried forcefully to get the CG to back off as he was not in danger, had not issued the Mayday, and regarded it as unnecessary. The CG heard him, but still ordered him off the boat. Apparently, he even tried to get them to take the women (who wanted off), but leave him aboard. The CG ordered him off in no uncertain terms...


OK, I watched the video, but don't have time to check out everything else you mentioned. I'll do that someday when I have more time. This 20 year old case, along with the numerous accounts of it, is probably much more well known to those who have been sailing longer than I have. It is new to me.

From what I know so far, I misinterpreted some of the things you said - or perhaps you were a little lopsided in your description. It would seem that the CG determined that the ship was fundamentally unsafe, whereas my reading of your account led me to believe that the CG was taking punitive action in response to a clearly unnecessary mayday. I think their action was exacerbated by the prospect of the captain single-handing in the absence of his rescued crew, something which would appear to have been highly questionable given the conditions. These judgments are always gray areas, and not clear cut. But the fact that the boat washed ashore in good shape does not prove that a mayday was uncalled for. We all know that in virtually all cases the boats can take a greater pounding than the crew.

This does bring up an interesting ethical question about the crew's rights to declare a mayday against the captain's orders. Does maritime law have anything to protect crew's rights to commit "mutiny by mayday?"


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## NautiG (Apr 23, 2007)

I should add that pan-pan is a call that I feel should be more frequently used by boaters. There have been situations when I saw a boater that I thought might be in distress, but no call had been made. I passed them by, because I didn't know there was an issue they were dealing with. But I could probably could have helped them, if I had known. 

Examples that come to mind are some groundings and props fouled with crab pot lines which later I learned about after they called for professional help. I've been in some similar situations myself and probably should have asked for assistance.

Scott
Gemini Catamaran Split Decision


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## ottos (Aug 12, 2008)

RhythmDoctor said:


> This is so extreme that it sounds like more of an urban legend.
> 
> Please cite a reference somewhere to back up this wildass story. I'm not buying it.


Doc, Here is a link to the story as I know it. It is better than the movie!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I'm just unclear on what legal principles apply, that would require the captain and master (licensed or common) of a vessel to abandon their own property at the order of the USCG, which is nominally either an administrative agency or a military (depending on circumstance and time) and subject to all sorts of other little considerations like "due process" and that nasty constitution thing.

I can't see a SAR team playing SEAL6 and renditioning a captain who says "Can't hear ya, gotta take care of my boat now."


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Please see Termination of Use
also note that the experience of the operator is not a factor in the USCG decision.

http://www.uscg.mil/d1/prevention/NavInfo/navinfo/documents/Enforcement.PDF


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

It might be a mayday emergency if you can articulate the type of assistance needed to alleviate the imminent danger. Anything else is likely a pan emergency or less.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

bubb-
That PDF is a USCG position paper, basically they are explaining what they will do. But it does not say what the authority or the underlying legal basis is. 
Further, "may direct the operator to take immediate steps to correct the
condition, including returning to port." does not mean the operator must return to port with the USCG, it means exactly the opposite of what the USCG ordered the skipper to do. It means the skipper must BRING THE BOAT BACK TO PORT not step off and abandon it.


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

The CG found it within their purview to declare the circumstances "manifestly unsafe." The outcome proved them wrong. Had he stayed aboard, I believe a board or inquiry could have found room to acknowledge that the captain had the final say.

But what if he had not abandoned his ship after such a declaration was made and then given ample opportunity, as was the case? The pay-off matrix was entirely against him at that point. Beyond simply the loss of his life and the vessel, however slim those odds given our hindsight, the insurance could readily claim the loss was a suicide.

Keep in mind that I share your outrage at the CG's unwarranted interference, and their active support of a mutiny at sea, irrespective of hindsight and the outcome of this particular, single event.


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

Belatedly, I read the referenced document. It states "If a manifestly unsafe ruling is issued, the voyage is terminated and the vessel will be prevented from getting underway."

The only thing I can add is my personal opinion that law enforcement in this country has grown far too powerful and too far reaching with not nearly enough safeguards against abuse or even "simple" incompetence.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

The other thing to think about. The a mayday call was apparently made by a crew member. The coast guard comes out to the boat. Now the captain wants to stay on board. If he does and the weather gets worse (which apparently was going to happen), then possibly the coast guard would need to come out in even worse conditions to rescue the captain. 

Every time the coast guard comes out they are risking their own lives. I do not understand why you are so hard on the coast guard. The CG is primarily made up of a bunch of 20 or thirty year old men and women willing to risk their lives just because in many cases boaters don't know what they are doing and are there to save your arse. In this situation they were called by a crew memeber to come out and as a Mayday. Apparently the captain was not in charge of the crew (a mutiny?). And just because the boat made it to the beach does not mean the crew might have also survived the storm without injury. The boat could have been rolled and crew severly injured. 

Don't put the blame on CG. If a Mayday call had not gone through, they would not arrived on scene. And if you say there was no Mayday call, well that is the fault of the crew for not having clear communication of their emergency call- or whatever call they were trying to make.

If you don't like the CG, then trash you epirb and don't bother with ch 16, trash your flares also.


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

Casey, I have nothing but respect for the Coasties. That is, for the individuals, if not necessarily the organization and bureaucracy as a whole. It should be possible for them to do their job without the heavy hand that was demonstrated. Trash my EPIRB and signal flares indeed.

Since you really do want to argue this particular case strenuously, the events as they played out proved them wrong in declaring the voyage manifestly unsafe. The abandoned vessel subsequently washed ashore with very little damage. Q.E.D.

What does "manifestly" mean? The dictionary definition is "Clearly apparent to the sight or understanding; obvious." Again, the proof is in the outcome. The vessel survived the storm and heavy seas, disproving the hypothesis. The only fact that is manifestly obvious to me is that their working definition of "unsafe" needs recalibration.

The Coasties suffered damage to their RIB and lost men overboard when they attempted to pull alongside the Satori. Clearly, the seas were unsafe for their RIB and those actions under those conditions. But that does not translate to the seas and conditions being unsafe for all other vessels, including the Satori.

As for the crew members wanting off... Who here hasn't been there, wishing the ride was over and wanting nothing more than being on unmoving ground? That also isn't proof of anything.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

MikeWhy said:


> Casey, I have nothing but respect for the Coasties. That is, for the individuals, if not necessarily the organization and bureaucracy as a whole. It should be possible for them to do their job without the heavy hand that was demonstrated. Trash my EPIRB and signal flares indeed.
> 
> Since you really do want to argue this particular case strenuously, the events as they played out proved them wrong in declaring the voyage manifestly unsafe. The abandoned vessel subsequently washed ashore with very little damage. Q.E.D.
> 
> ...


So you have trashed your epirb and signal flares? What about your vhf?

Just because the Satori washed ashore does not mean the Captain would not have called the CG for help had they left him alone on the boat. The Satori could have been rolled or knocked down possibly injuring or killing who ever is inside. Many people have been pulled from a boat only to have it washed ashore intact after a storm.

The fact is the CG recieved what was thought a may day call from Satori. They responded. They also did not want to have to respond to another potential may day call from this boat, so they pulled everyone off. What would have happened to the CG comanding officer if the Satori Captain were allowed to stay on the boat, and then later put out a may day. Say during this may day a CG helo went down killing all on board. What would people say then? What would become of the comanding officer?

My point is the initial fault is of the Satori crew issuing what was interperted as a May Day call. Several months back I had read the Satori Captain's story of what happened. One thing he said was the two crew were picked up just before he left. He did not know them nor knew of their capabilities. Also, after the rescue, he never heard from the lady that suposedly issued the may day call. Pick your crew wisely or it might cost you your boat.


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

We can go on forever and never come to agreement, but I'll stop here since your grasp of language and logic appear to be limited. You continue to delve into possibilities that did not occur. The CG district commander, who was not then on the scene, declared the voyage MANIFESTLY unsafe -- see above for one definition -- not simply POSSIBLY unsafe, or even PROBABLY unsafe. The imminent danger that was presumed to exist was far from OBVIOUS, especially given the benign outcome. The fact of the matter remains that the captain of the ship did not ask for assistance, and was forcibly removed from his ship against his wishes. In doing so, the Coast Guard exceeded their purview. Yes, their actions can cost me my boat. How surprising is it that I want to have some say in the matter?


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

This was the article I had read several months ago. Rod Lawson - Oceans
From the article, I would not say the yacht could be considered in no danger. It was already taking knock downs and a hurricane was approaching, and a crew member had issued an apparent may day call. What do you expect the CG to do? Maybe the CG thinks the captain is being irrational from being cold and tired, at this point the CG chooses to take most percautious route and that is to remove the crew. Again, just because the boat washes up on shore does not mean no one would have not gotten injured or killed on the boat had the CG left the crew on board. Also again, an apparent may day was issued by the crew, at this point the CG becomes at least partially responsible for the crews safety. And again, if the may day was issued without the captains permission, then the captain is not in complete control of the ship.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Clearly, the seas were unsafe for their RIB "
First responders are taught, these days, that when it is unsafe they are to stand by or stand down and not endanger themselves. The "superman syndrome" kills some every year (cops too) and despite the heroic traditions, they are all taught not to endanger themselves. Case in point, neither the USCG nor state watercops will run the NY or NJ inlets when conditions degenerate badly. They'll tell you "We can't come out." Period.
So by definition, if they went out...conditions were not unsafe. Or, they'd have to be reported themselves.

Casey-
"The fact is the CG recieved what was thought a may day call from Satori. They responded. They also did not want to have to respond to another potential may day call from this boat, so they pulled everyone off."

That's not facts, that's misleading and omitted facts. The USCG received what WAS in fact a Mayday call. Anyone can make a mayday call, anyone can request help. They don't have to be the captain, master, commander, of a vessel. So the USCG did receive a mayday call, but it was not from the captain and master of the vessel. This is the GUNG HO! Superman Syndrome at work. If civilians request rescue, by all means, respond to them. If the captain and master does not request rescue--give his request equal weight.
There's no need to worry about whether you'll have to come out again, you tell the captain that conditions are deteriorating, and in accord with USCG procedure you will not be able to come back if he changes his mind after they have gone, because it is no longer safe for them to respond.
YES, it can be that simple. When rescue assets (men,boats, aircraft) are unavaiable for any reason (inventory, priority, scarcity, weather) the USCG has no obligation (except tradition) to respond until something changes and they are _able _to do so. _Safely_.

Some years ago I was in a large weekend race series. The afternoon race was cancelled by the RC, after a fuel barge captain complained to the local USCG station that the racers were "obstructing the channel". 48 hours later, the USCG District Commander issued a formal apology to the RC and the racers, and took disciplinary action against the coastie who demanded a cancellation "or else". Why? Because there are legal definitions for what a channel is, and as the RC had told the coastie, there was NO CHANNEL in the area being protested.
Yes, Coasties can be wrong. Especially the junior gungho guys who get sent out in boats.That's why we have courts, and the legal right to say "Sir, no Sir!" when we think the man in the uniform is wrong. No matter what uniform he, or we, are wearing at the time.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> "Clearly, the seas were unsafe for their RIB "
> First responders are taught, these days, that when it is unsafe they are to stand by or stand down and not endanger themselves. The "superman syndrome" kills some every year (cops too) and despite the heroic traditions, they are all taught not to endanger themselves. Case in point, neither the USCG nor state watercops will run the NY or NJ inlets when conditions degenerate badly. They'll tell you "We can't come out." Period.
> So by definition, if they went out...conditions were not unsafe. Or, they'd have to be reported themselves.
> 
> ...


So the CG declared the voyage manifestly unsafe- Maybe it was as the life raft had been lost. Any ocean going vessel should have a life raft, having none in the conditions at that time could be considered manifestly unsafe.

I am not sure of the legality of a crew member issuing a may day and then when CG arrives, the strickened vessels Captain says it is not a may day. Who does the CG believe? Do they just extract the people who think it is a may day or does the CG make a descision weather or not it is a may day? Seems the CG is trying to err on the side of safety. It seems by issuing a may day you are allowing the CG to take at least some if not all command of the situation. At that time you must be willing to follow the CG's request (or orders). If you are not, a may day should not be issued- that would be a pan pan I would guess.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I don't think you're making sense here.

"So the CG declared the voyage manifestly unsafe- " But according to their own post, and US law, in that circumstance they can order you to return to port. No one has cited any legal basis for an order to abandon ship. Their own position paper doesn't suggest this is an acceptable procedure, either.

Further, when you abandon ship you need to _scuttle _the ship to prevent it from endangering others. The coastie in charge would need to commandeer the yacht, and absent legal authority to do so, he might be held personally liable for the cost of replacing it. Dangerous waters, so to speak.

So that option (mainfestly unsafe) is simply not applicable.

"I am not sure of the legality of a crew member issuing a may day and then when CG arrives, the strickened vessels Captain says it is not a may day. ... It seems by issuing a may day ...you must be willing to follow the CG's request (or orders)."
And again, that's meaningless. You are confusing two realities. The captain did not issue a mayday, so there's no reason that he would be bound to follow the consequences of someone else's _personal _decision. this is not Starfleet and these are not the officers and "crew" of a ship in service. These are civilians with no ownership or controlling right over the vessel.
Whoever called for rescue, has to accept the consequences of that call. If the captain and master did NOT place that call, they are not obligated to follow the consequences. The USCG does not recognize the concept of a "false mayday" unless there is intent to defraud, or malice, i.e. hoaxsters. You break a fingernail and call for rescue? You're gonna get a lot of heat, but that's between _you _and the USCG. It doesn't obligate anyone else. If I hear you calling "Mayday, I broke a nail!" I'm not going to respond to your aid, and no one is going to prosecute me for that.

There was only one appropriate response from the USCG: Rescue whoever said they were endangered, leave the captain in charge of his vessel (preferably after getting a formal statement or recording showing that he refused rescue) and let the courts or a senior officer figure it out later.

Despite what the government may tell you, you generally have the right to refuse their _assistance_. Specific laws exist, for specific circumstances, where you may be compelled to obey orders. Absent one of those specific situations? "SIR NO SIR!"

They don't own you, or your boat, unless you're in uniform and the boat is wearing gray.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> I don't think you're making sense here.
> 
> "So the CG declared the voyage manifestly unsafe- " But according to their own post, and US law, in that circumstance they can order you to return to port. No one has cited any legal basis for an order to abandon ship. Their own position paper doesn't suggest this is an acceptable procedure, either.
> 
> ...


You do not make sense either. And at least I ask a question rather than infer I know the answer.

The question is is this a may day? Is there immediate threat to life or property. That is the question that needs to be answered. The CG decided this was a may day. The CG cannot extract a crew member unless they have been or with high probability going to be injured or killed. Also, I have never seen the CG having the captain scuttle a vessel or doing it themselves. During the same perfect storm 1991 rescue they took captain and crew off Sea Flower and did not have the vessel scuttle. There are many similar situations.

Satori should have issued a pan pan if, as they say, they were not in immediate danger.


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

I had posted this a bit earlier, up-thread: "If a manifestly unsafe ruling is issued, the voyage is terminated and the vessel will be prevented from getting underway."

(From the document at http://www.uscg.mil/d1/prevention/NavInfo/navinfo/documents/Enforcement.PDF.)

It is a Special Notice to Mariners, not simply a position paper. (Keeping in mind that I know as much about maritime law as I do open heart surgery, and thus little or nothing about the legal disposition of the document and its content.)

The quoted text was in the section titled "Prohibition to Sail", citing authority granted in 46 US Code 4302 and 4308. In part, Sec. 4308. Termination of unsafe operation, states: "...including directing the individual in charge to return to a mooring and to remain there until the situation creating the hazard is corrected or ended."

Which, I note, is precisely as you say.


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

casey1999 said:


> Also, I have never seen the CG having the captain scuttle a vessel or doing it themselves.


Casey, as gently as I know how... When the crew is extracted, the abandoned vessel is derelict and a hazard to navigation. What should be amazing to us is that the S/V Satori was NOT ordered scuttled when it was abandoned.

There is a protocol for requesting assistance to abandon ship, with all this implies, and has nothing at all to do with the call's status as a mayday or pan emergency. What I know of it is anecdotal only, so I'll leave it to someone else to cite the specifics.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

MikeWhy said:


> Casey, as gently as I know how... When the crew is extracted, the abandoned vessel is derelict and a hazard to navigation. What should be amazing to us is that the S/V Satori was NOT ordered scuttled when it was abandoned.
> 
> There is a protocol for requesting assistance to abandon ship, with all this implies, and has nothing at all to do with the call's status as a mayday or pan emergency. What I know of it is anecdotal only, so I'll leave it to someone else to cite the specifics.


1. The CG should issue a Securite call if there is an abonded floating ship. 
Coast Guard VHF Radio Securite Call - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

I do not know if they did this with Satori. I have read many cases of CG rescues of crew where the boat is left floating and the CG does not sink it. The boat is left for salvage. Read up on the 1979 Fastnet race, many boats were abandoned only to be salvaged a few days later by fishermen.

2. If you need to abandon your ship, you do not issue a Pan Pan. You issue a may day which is what Satori did. It was their (or a crews) decision to call it a may day and they suffered the consequences.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Interesting discussion. The examples of “manifestly unsafe voyage” here in San Francisco is when the USCG turned back the home made trimaran “Tincup” and that Russian Guy’s Redwood log raft in HMB one year. The guy who sailed the WWP “Tubby” to Hawaii did so in secret so he wouldn’t get turned back. Imagine the different outcome if the guy in San Diego got turned back because he had his Mac 26 grossly overloaded.

In the Perfect Storm scenario with Satori, the Captain of the Tamaroa was the incident commander and the one (who was on scene) to “make the call”. You got to admit it was in deteriorating conditions, most of the Satori crew were in fear of their lives and no way to plumb the depths of the owner’s skills and psyche. No way would the USCG rescue only part of the crew. All or nothing. I recall, wasn’t that question posed to the crew of the Satori? casey1999 hit the nail on the head about knowing who your crew is. Knowing that the Tamaroa CO would have been held personally responsible if the outcome was tragic, would you have left them all on board

Scuttling looks good in the movies, but other than warships, it is not a requirement. Another San Francisco example: When the crew of Pterodactyl got flushed overboard on the DH Farallone race a couple years back, the USGC deemed it too unsafe for them (the owner actually) to attempt to re board given the existing sea state. They did authorize the rescuing boat to throw their EPIRB into Pterodactyl’s cockpit so a recovery could be attempted when the sea state dropped.<O


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

hellosailor said:


> I don't think you're making sense here.
> 
> "So the CG declared the voyage manifestly unsafe- " But according to their own post, and US law, in that circumstance they can order you to return to port. No one has cited any legal basis for an order to abandon ship. Their own position paper doesn't suggest this is an acceptable procedure, either.


Here's the law. Which says the Coast Guard MAY require you back to port. It does not say that is their only option when handling a voyage they deem unsafe.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2009/julqtr/pdf/33cfr177.07.pdf


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I agree that the list is not written to be exclusive of other "immediate and reasonable steps". The legal wrangling over what "reasonable" means may be defined in the courts on this subject. That will take a lot more research.


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## MikeWhy (Apr 22, 2011)

I'm ready to move on to more fruitful topics, but I'm still at a loss as to why the Satori's voyage needed to be terminated. Was there a minimum crew requirement? Not to my understanding. Was his minimum onboard safety equipment inadequate or deficient in any way? No; the required safety equipment list is quite basic, and the liferaft that had washed overboard was not required equipment. Was the sea state at that time and location so abnormally high that all voyages need to be terminated? Obviously not. Was the vessel unseaworthy in any way? Obviously not, since the Satori survived the storm and was recovered without storm damage. As for all or nothing in the "rescue", medically necessary evacuations come to mind, which don't normally leave the vessel without a crew. Clearly, there was no basis for the manifestly unsafe ruling, legalities considered or aside.

As it stands, the CG can board your vessel at anytime without due process, terminate the voyage, detain all onboard, and confiscate the vessel and contents. Those are broad reaching powers with very little civilian oversight. You can bet your petunias I'm a little sensitive when they reach, as they did here, even the slightest beyond those already broad powers. (Or maybe just exercise them too eagerly or frivolously.)


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

MikeWhy said:


> I'm ready to move on to more fruitful topics, but I'm still at a loss as to why the Satori's voyage needed to be terminated. Was there a minimum crew requirement? Not to my understanding. Was his minimum onboard safety equipment inadequate or deficient in any way? No; the required safety equipment list is quite basic, and the liferaft that had washed overboard was not required equipment. Was the sea state at that time and location so abnormally high that all voyages need to be terminated? Obviously not. Was the vessel unseaworthy in any way? Obviously not, since the Satori survived the storm and was recovered without storm damage. As for all or nothing in the "rescue", medically necessary evacuations come to mind, which don't normally leave the vessel without a crew. Clearly, there was no basis for the manifestly unsafe ruling, legalities considered or aside.
> 
> As it stands, the CG can board your vessel at anytime without due process, terminate the voyage, detain all onboard, and confiscate the vessel and contents. Those are broad reaching powers with very little civilian oversight. You can bet your petunias I'm a little sensitive when they reach, as they did here, even the slightest beyond those already broad powers. (Or maybe just exercise them too eagerly or frivolously.)


I agree, let's just move on to another topic.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Mike-
Don't mistake the question of whether the voyage needed to be terminated, with the question of "Why did this one Coastie insist on terminating it?"

The former would be an objective measure, i.e., there was a live bomb on board or a leaking container of Sarin, and no ordnance experts available.

The latter is just one man's opinion, and even if he is in uniform and has credentials--it is still just an opinion, which may be wrong.

As to what the USCG can and can't do, the relevant legal phrase is "under color of law" meaning, someone claims that the law allows them to do something, when in fact it does not. What any government agent does, they may or may not have the right to do. The USCG is nominally an administrative agency operating under the DHS these days. They used to be an administrative agency except after formal Congressional declaration of war, at which time they were transferred to the Department of Defense (aka War Department) at which time they lost their administrative status and became a military agency.

Military, police, administrative, all are different laws, different issues. And those issues change from time to time as the laws change, too.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Not to beat a dead horse, but this video is dramatic.
YouTube - ‪Perfect Storm Rescues: Infant Saved at Sea‬‏

I have tried to find out why the boat was abandoned and what happened to it. Looks like a furling main. Maybe it got stuck and Captain could not get it reefed. The baby was lucky to live.

Would anyone know more about this story?


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

casey1999 said:


> Not to beat a dead horse, but this video is dramatic.
> YouTube - ‪Perfect Storm Rescues: Infant Saved at Sea‬‏
> 
> I have tried to find out why the boat was abandoned and what happened to it. Looks like a furling main. Maybe it got stuck and Captain could not get it reefed. The baby was lucky to live.
> ...


Not a furling main, the roach is rather.

Here is a video of the Satori rescue.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Marine Flower Ii Rescue

More of the story


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## cshrimpt (Jun 8, 2015)

Kiltmadoc said:


> This may be a dumb a question, but does a MOB situation in MA, ME or other nearby places constitute a Mayday call or Pan-pan call to the coast guard?


My opinion is if someone goes overboard and you can't find them within 5 minutes, it's a definite mayday. At that point they are in grave danger.

Pan-pan is for a situation where your taking on water, but you think you have it controlled and to stand by and check on us every once in a while.

Mayday is for an "all hands on deck" situation like you're sinking, you're on fire, or someone's overboard and you can't find them.

Shrimp


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I guess I'm really dumb, but what is a COB? I know about the one in corn, but at sea?


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Crew over board.

Happy Easter!


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

My understanding is that this guy's (the best I can describe) "conveyance" was declared manifestly unsafe by CG.

IMHO, at least in this case, this restriction seems reasonably well thought out:wink


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/724341269187555329


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

RobGallagher said:


> Crew over board. Happy Easter!


OMG! PC strikes deep into the ways of man (oops, persons, oops sailors).


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Capta, you've got to move with the times.

The new "correct" is BOB. Biped Over Board.

To distinguish from, say, the ship's mascot or food supply, without offending any of the five (yes, there are actually five, including three types of hermaphrodites) natural human genders, or the 25 that could be among us, if we counted all the surgical options.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

capecodda said:


> My understanding is that this guy's (the best I can describe) "conveyance" was declared manifestly unsafe by CG.
> 
> IMHO, at least in this case, this restriction seems reasonably well thought out:wink
> 
> ...


The same guy did the same thing two years ago, with exactly the same result. (Click here to see Sailnet discussion.) They need to leave him alone and terminate that gene line. He gets a Darwin award, but only if he hasn't had offspring yet.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

The BubbleGuy (the Brazilian? in Florida) obeyed the USCG this last time, and stayed on land. But he has stated his intent to make the trip "soon". And somehow, although he says he has studied and learned and is much more prepared now...he just get it. The USCG was right the first time (about the danger and folly) but now they're too dumb and he knows better again? Despite still having no great concept of wind, current, and ocean weather?

I'm sure that if the USCG had any option that allowed them to ignore a recognized folly, they'd exercise it. But the Fed has no "PINS" system, and the state of Florida certainly isn't going to appoint a supervisor and place him in custody either. Florida doesn't waste money like that, they let them silly Yankee Feds do that. (sigh)

Unless someone can find a way to deport him. Bubble and all.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

hellosailor said:


> The BubbleGuy (the Brazilian? in Florida) obeyed the USCG this last time, and stayed on land. But he has stated his intent to make the trip "soon". And somehow, although he says he has studied and learned and is much more prepared now...he just get it. The USCG was right the first time (about the danger and folly) but now they're too dumb and he knows better again? Despite still having no great concept of wind, current, and ocean weather?
> 
> I'm sure that if the USCG had any option that allowed them to ignore a recognized folly, they'd exercise it. But the Fed has no "PINS" system, and the state of Florida certainly isn't going to appoint a supervisor and place him in custody either. Florida doesn't waste money like that, they let them silly Yankee Feds do that. (sigh)
> 
> Unless someone can find a way to deport him. Bubble and all.


If only he'd begun his 'voyaging' in that bay the Brazilians expect the Olympians to sail in, he wouldn't be needing help from our CG. The CDC maybe, but not the USCG!


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## FoolishMuse (Oct 12, 2006)

Don't ever equate a mayday call with a 911 call. A 911 will have the ambulance, fire department and police at your front door in 3 minutes flat. A mayday call will get you a coast guard boat in 30 minutes at the absolute best of times if you are very close to their station, and 1-3 hours more likely. If you are offshore then a 7 day response time is not uncommon. (I personally know a man who was injured on his boat and waited 7 days for rescue in the South Atlantic).

When I broke my mast while singlehanding just 1 mile south of Victoria Harbor, I did not call for assistance but I noticed that 2 freighters were circling round. So I put out a pan-pan that I did not need their assistance. The coast guard, their building was actually in site of my position, overheard the call and then notified me that the local SAR was going to come out to help. I was very specific in giving my position as "1 mile south of Victoria harbor." I could not possibly be more clear than that (and I couldn't get to my gps which was below). But I was the only boat anywhere in sight anyways. But, as darkness fell, the SAR started searching due east of Victoria harbor, even though I repeated several times that I was 1 mile south of Victoria harbor. It took them an hour to get to me. I couldn't imagine anyone having an emergency closer to their home base.

So my point is, if you are waiting for the coast guard in a MOB situation, then the MOB is DOA. As mentioned elsewhere, take a minute to determine if you can make the rescue by yourself. If not, then a mayday is very appropriate, but the goal is to attract nearby boats that can come to your help much quicker than the CG. A flare to alert them of your exact position would also be vital to get them to you ASAP. Make the mayday call, alert them that you are launching a flare, then launch. This will get them to you much quicker than trying to tell them your latitude and longitude and then they have to figure out what that means.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

And that's where DSC comes in very useful, rather than 1 mile south of victoria harbour, you give them a position to the nearest 10metres.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

PaulinVictoria said:


> And that's where DSC comes in very useful, rather than 1 mile south of victoria harbour, you give them a position to the nearest 10metres.


Which is exactly what I said in this thread 5 years ago.

I don't debate the helpfulness of flares, etc., but taking the time and a few dollars to interface a chartplotter, or even just a GPS puck, to your DSC radio (or buy a radio with the GPS built in) could save your life someday. Just hit the distress button and your GPS coordinates go out electronically and your target shows up on USCG's screen. Funny how so many people forget to even mention this.

After 5 years of additional experience (none of it offshore, however), I'd propose that unless you have direct experience hauling a MOB/COB onto your boat, any overboard situation should warrant an immediate mayday call. If you wait 5 minutes or more to assess the situation, you might lose valuable time that could save a life. Do the mayday and let the USCG downgrade it if their assessment says it's overkill.

I'm no expert at this, so I welcome other opinions. I've never actually even heard a mayday call on my radio, although I've heard several cases of the USCG saying, "will the vessel in distress please repeat your call?" Obviously in those cases, the USCG repeater stations reached my boat, but the distressed boat did not.


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## FoolishMuse (Oct 12, 2006)

> And that's where DSC comes in very useful, rather than 1 mile south of victoria harbour, you give them a position to the nearest 10metres.


Clearly in a life threatening situation you should use ALL means at your disposal including DSC, flares and a mayday to the coast guard.

But think about your typical day on the water. If you heard a mayday call giving a position "48 North, 24 minutes, 26 seconds - 123 West, 19 minutes, 47 seconds" or if they were using decimals then "48.407326 North - Minus 123.329773 West" Would you have any idea of where that boat is located? Is it anywhere near your position?

I once heard a woman calling on the radio when she ran out of fuel. She gave her position as "48 North - 123 West" which only describes 3,600 square miles of water.

But if you heard "1 mile south of Victoria harbor" or "Near the west entrance of Active Pass" or some other clear geographic position, then you as a nearby boater would immediately know that you are in the vicinity. You would either say to yourself "gee, I'm near there" or you would say to yourself "I'm nowhere near there".

For the woman above, the first thing the coast guard asked her was not her exact GPS position, but to look around and tell us what island she was near. It was actually based on overhearing this radio call from the CG that I said I was "1 mile south of Victoria harbor" when giving my position in my earlier post.

However, my main point in the earlier post was that it takes the CG a long time to get out of their station and to you on the water. So what you really want to do is get nearby boats helping immediately. This is where the flare will become useful. It will even draw the attention of boaters who have their radio off.

A few years ago a woman called a mayday because her husband was scuba diving off their boat and he did not return to the surface. The CG launched their huge hovercraft, but it would take an hour to reach her position. This obviously became a recovery mission, not a rescue.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

FoolishMuse said:


> Clearly in a life threatening situation you should use ALL means at your disposal including DSC, flares and a mayday to the coast guard.
> 
> But think about your typical day on the water. If you heard a mayday call giving a position "48 North, 24 minutes, 26 seconds - 123 West, 19 minutes, 47 seconds" or if they were using decimals then "48.407326 North - Minus 123.329773 West" Would you have any idea of where that boat is located? Is it anywhere near your position?


Based on your message, I suspect that you may not fully understand what DSC is. You do not call out your coordinates verbally (in a distress situation, you've got more important things to do). You simply push the distress button and the coordinates go out electronically to everyone with a DSC radio (if it's configured properly with a GPS input). The USCG and boaters with properly configured chartplotters will see your boat's exact location on a chart.

It's regrettable that it took them an hour to get to you, but depending on your location it could be a lot less or a lot more time. But it's undeniable that an exact location will get them to you much faster.

You should Google USCG Rescue 21 and get more familiar with this.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Some years ago, we had a couple of equipment failures and some serious weather coming in, so we decided to double back to the nearest inlet and bag it. Except, that inlet is known to be outright dangerous in certain conditions and there was a good chance we'd be safer not entering.

So I called the USCG station inside the inlet (who said please call back on their phone line to keep the radio free) and after we played "bars bars, who's got two bars?" and explained that we were NOT in danger, but we didn't want to be, so could they please tell us conditions in the inlet, behind their station?

Ergh, no, they couldn't. Their boat (singular) was out, busy, handling an inbound ketch form the EU that had lost it's mast. But, by all means, head their way, and when they got the list caught up a bit they'd ask their boat to look into it.

About three hours later a blue light goes flying past in the fog...their boat finally worked its way down the list. Not a problem for us, and incredibly helpful. But sometimes, resources are just limited, and you can expect that just as in a hospital ER, even with triage, sometimes you will just have to WAIT.

Even for emergency responders.


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## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

Usefulness or practicality aside, would a pan pan be appropriate if the situation was not immediately dire?


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I applaud you for sharing your list, but I have a bunch of issues with it. Sorry if someone else has already done this.



Kiltmadoc said:


> FWIW, here's what I have been drafting for MOB and May Day calls. The idea of the checklists, for me, was to allow "anyone" on board to do things correctly. From my pilot training, if there is another person on board, that person helps makes sure the checklist is followed and nothing is missed. I envision these checklists for use when people are out on a day sail and something goes wrong. Usually, when we go, there are 4-6 people on board.
> 
> Without further ado, here's the checklist for this situation:
> 
> ...


CREW OVERBOARD:

1 - First person to realize this shouts; "MAN/CREW/PERSON OVERBOARD" to the helmsperson AND points at the person in the water. Tactical command of the situation rests with the helmsperson, unless that person is relieved by the captain.

2 - Helmsperson appoints the person that shouted "___ OVERBOARD" as the spotter. Their primary (ideally exclusive) task in this situation is to maintain visual contact with the person in the water.

3 - Helmsperson commands another crew member to throw something (anything) that floats in the direction of the person in the water. It doesn't matter if the person is in range or not. An object that floats gives you an additional visual reference point, and provides a clue to the person in the water that the crew on the boat is aware of their situation.

4 - Helmsperson presses MOB/COB button on chart plotter.

Steps 1-4 should take about 3 seconds to complete.

Because you are using a LifeSling, I will assume that it has been properly secured to the boat;

5 - Helmsperson throws the LifeSling off the back of the boat, and lets the line pay out.

6 - Helmsperson starts the engine, puts the transmission in Forward, and instructs the crew to drop or furl the sails.

7 - Helmsperson turns the boat around and heads back toward the MOB.

Steps 1-7 should take about 15 seconds to complete.

8 - Helmsperson brings the vessel past the MOB, then circles the vessel slowly around the MOB while under power. MOB grabs the polypropolyne line and the LifeSling float.

9 - Engine in neutral when MOB has the sling in hand.

10 - Retrieve MOB by hand.

11 - Recover MOB by: swim ladder / Elevator method / Block and Tackle.

DO NOT turn off engine, because it may be needed to provide cabin heat / hot water / electrical power / return to nearest port

Assess condition of the MOB. Call CG if necessary.

A Mayday call is warranted if there is ANY life threatening circumstance. ANY vessel in the vicinity that receives the Mayday, is obligated to render assistance (not just the CG)


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Slayer said:


> Usefulness or practicality aside, would a pan pan be appropriate if the situation was not immediately dire?


I describe a "MayDay" to my students as a request for assistance. A "Pan Pan" is a specific warning of a dangerous situation which could endanger people or other vessels. Ex; deadhead in the water, vessel adrift, cable hanging below a bridge, area closed by the CG or Navy. And a "Securite" is a warning about your vessel. Ex; Backing out of a slip, entering a narrow channel, waiting for a bridge opening, practicing MOB manuvers, mechanical failure.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Dire" represents an emotional state, and emotions are not a consideration in the use of emergency radio calls. The question is, is there an immediate threat to life and property and probably or imminent loss of those?

No imminent loss, no mayday.

However, if you were offshore, shorthanded, few provisions on board, and had a rather inconvenient spinnaker wrap that didn't seem like it was going to come down, combined with an engine failure that seemed like it might just need to be bled (but who ever knows), so that you were now merrily forced to sail out to sea as night and a storm front were moving in...That would be a PAN PAN PAN. As the weather closed in, night was approaching, and the boat was threatening to broach and roll if things continued in the expected manner...that would escalate to a MAYDAY.

Since you are in a continually changing environment and situation at sea, the context of what call to make and why you are making it will also keep changing. So you ask yourself, OK, is anyone going to die here? Are things getting terribly inconvenient, as opposed to too damned dangerous? And you make your call. The USCG will not sanction you for making the wrong call they WILL coax the details out of you and make their own determination, based on available resources and their own judgment.
When in doubt, try calling "US Coast Guard, US Guard Guard, this is..." and get their advice first, if you can. If you are out of range but any other vessel hears you, the odds are they may also respond inquiring if you need assistance.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Securite, securite, securite, this is the SS Minnow at position xx.xx.xx, all vessels be advised there is a 20 foot log floating in the water, at this location, 1nm north of Sandy Point, Block Island.

Pan, Pan, Pan, this is the SS Minnow at position xx.xx.xx, we have struck a 20 foot log at this location, 1nm north of Sandy Point, Block Island, and are adrift, without a rudder. Requesting assistance.

Mayday, mayday, mayday, this is the SS Minnow at position xx.xx.xx, we have struck a 20 foot log at this location, 1nm north of Sandy Point, Block Island, and are sinking. Require immediate assistance.


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