# "Free boat" seaworthiness



## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

hi folks. I have a big question but first, some background. I've been sailing for 17 years. I taught myself to sail on a 9' dinghy and I still sail her the most. she's convenient and fun. anyhow, I also own a holiday 20. it's a rock stable boat, when compared to my dinghy, and I've never even come close to worrying about a capsize. although, I must be honest, I've faced a lot worse situations in that dinghy than the 20. really crazy stuff, especially since I can't swim. lol. 

now, the question. I am about to get a j24 for free. yep. free. it's in good functional shape. brand new sails. only needs a bit of trim work, really. the only thing is it's covered in mud and it doesn't come with a trailer. I have to move it immediately, if i'm to get it, so I have to see if I can find an affordable marina. I don't know what else to do. anyhow, my question:

when I first found out about this boat, I didn't know what it was. the guy only told me it was a keel boat and "24' Chesapeake". now, I thought he might have been telling me a model. cheapeake. searched the web over. found two possibilities. anyhow, at that size and full keel I figured light cruiser. found out tonight it's a j24 and got a pic of it. I will put the pic on here for shock value. lol. 

anyhow, i'd like to use the boat for day sailing and light cruising; weekends or over night. everyone knows what a j24 is but I've never sailed one. so, I was searching the web and I found some disturbing stuff. I read a lot about them being prone to capsize and sinking. I've also heard that they have a bit of lee helm. I figured a keel boat would be more stable than my holidays 20, which is a center boarder. 

I intend to sail her from back river, in the Chesapeake bay. I was wondering if I could get input from any who have sailed them about their sailing qualities. obviously, i'm looking for something stable for cruiser type use. I don't care about racing. I just love to sail.

so, are they that unseaworthy? are there any suggestions to make one more seaworthy? I don't mind some moderate modifications but I have a shoestring budget. that has to be kept in mind.

if I can get a place to keep her, I am going to take her. free boats don't happen every day...at least not to me. but, if she won't suit my purpose, i'll fix her up and try to sell her to afford a boat that does. too bad it couldn't be a nordica20, halman20, or flicka. that would have been perfect. but never look a gift horse in the mouth. 

thanks in advance.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

here is the picture as she sits. had trouble finding it.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

Relatively low ballast, lightly built, short rudder, big open lazarettes, tiny below decks. They are really only good for racing, good fun though.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

Hmm, that's one odd looking J24, likely not a J24 at all in which case you might be able to ignore what I posted just now


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

Agree... that's NOT a J 24, someone's having you on.. Bad angle and not a good shot, but it looks more like an older 'flush deck' cal to me, maybe 23/24/25 in that range. The sunken forward deck is a bit odd so I'm not even sure about that.

But definitely NOT a J-24. The only reason J 24s sank was when they were pushed very hard downwind with the spinnaker up, and broached.. unfortunately the boat didn't float with the companionway above water, and they down flooded and sank quite quickly. But it was quite rare, and only when pressed hard.

all of which is moot, that's no J 24... did I mention that??


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

ok. well. that is interesting. I know of j-24s but don't know them, if you know what I mean. is that a California 24? looks like that would make this a 70s boat? what I read, so far, looks promising, if you are right.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

I will have to try to find the HIN when I look at the boat, tomorrow. that might shed some light on it. looking at pictures of the cal 24 and 25, I don't think this is it. the forward isn't actually sunken, on this boat. it is flat then steps up to the cabin top. nope. looking closer, I see what you mean about that. apparently all the cals, at leas tin that size range, had port lights. this boat has none....well, that can be seen.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*



captain jack said:


> ......I am about to get a [_boat_] for free. yep. free. it's in good functional shape. ......


Warning, warning. This defies the laws of physics.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

I've seen one of these boats as a kid and I cannot remember the model.
It's about as far from a J/24 as you can get... 
I am thinking late 60s early 70s model boat.
Here's a J/24, see the difference? Hint... look at the flush deck, and low topsides, a rounded sloping deck.









Far be it from me to discourage you though... but a "Free Boat" is like a "Free Lunch." There is NO such thing.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

I agree with other posters, this is not a J24. Take a look on the transom and see if there is a 12 character code molded in. Usually in the upper starboard but not always on older boats. This code is the HIN/MIC (Hull identification number/Manufacturers identification code). the first three characters identify the builder.

Go to this page on the USCG website and plug in those first three characters to find out. Every boat built in the US was required to have one of these codes after 1971 (maybe it was 74'. can't remember)


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

There's the other dead giveaway. No pic exists of J-24 without a racing mark nearby.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*



captain jack said:


> here is the picture as she sits. had trouble finding it.


How does a boat get that dirty? Was she up on the hard? What's the hull look like? Do those hatches close?


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

Just my opinion, but that boat is going to be big trouble for whomever takes it. Don't even think about taking it.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*



Minnewaska said:


> How does a boat get that dirty?


Sitting on the bottom???


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

That is not mud. It is spray on ceiling paint.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

I believe you guys that it's not a j-24. after the first person said that, I started comparing pictures. the question is, what is it? and I am going to write down the HIN when I go to see it, today. but it would be nice to have some idea of what I am going to see.

the story is this:

"The boat was a bank tell auctioned. It has been in the water about 4-5 
months at my aunts house and pier. She allowed it to be there, however 
neighbors complained because it consistently sets in front of pier 
verses the slip or boat lift. When the hard rain came a month who the 
boat had a lot of water on the inside and tide wad out so ly was in the 
mud. I pumped the water out and if is floating at pier but very muddy. 
It needs work. Has new sails. It had small outboard but doesn't work. I 
need to find title. The boat has to be moved ASAP do my aunt stops 
calling me."

yeah. that's hard to read. I didn't write it. he did. anyone ever watch "hold fast"? you can watch it on YouTube. it's pretty cool. anyhow, the guy narrating it claims that there are a lot of abandoned boats at marinas, and just out there, all over. people who couldn't pay for their slips or whatever. he says these boats often go for a song.

now, i'm not expecting a perfect boat for free, but if it's functionally sound, and it can be fixed up to make it "pretty", it's worth checking into for the price of free. a lot of these older boats aren't worth a ton in great shape. I imagine, being stuck with one that needs work, as winter approaches, isn't conducive for making profit.

heck, I bought my holiday20 for 800 bucks. it was in great shape. the guy had just bought a catalina 22 for 300. I had been going to check on that one, actually, but apparently, he got there before me. lol. anyhow, the guy didn't need two boats so he had to sell the holiday. all that took place in November. no one buys boats in November so he got his boat for 300 and I sold me the one he needed to move for 800.

so, I will admit, i'm not sure what he means by bank tell but i'm thinking he got this boat, not worth a ton in good shape, that needed a little work. work he didn't do or maybe couldn't do. and he didn't take appropriate steps the keep rain water out. it's on back river, not sure where there yet, which has shallow areas. during low tide, it sounds like it touched bottom and tipped over, taking on water and getting that stem to stern mud bath. now, he has a boat that, while previously not worth much, will be impossible to sell ( as is ) and he has to move it. so, what do you do? it's become a problem for him so he offers to give it away. lots of people let cars and things go to someone willing to remove them. why not boats?

anyhow, I realize it's likely to be a lot of work, but a free boat is worth looking at. I've known guys who fell into impossibly great deals on motorcycles and cars. I have never been one of those guys. maybe this is my chance to be one of those guys and i'd be silly not to even consider it.

if anyone can look at that picture and tell me what it is, i'll be much obliged. I am supposed to be seeing it, today, at 5pm.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*



FirstCandC said:


> That is not mud. It is spray on ceiling paint.


lol. it sort of looks like that.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*



SHNOOL said:


> I've seen one of these boats as a kid and I cannot remember the model.
> It's about as far from a J/24 as you can get...
> I am thinking late 60s early 70s model boat.
> Here's a J/24, see the difference? Hint... look at the flush deck, and low topsides, a rounded sloping deck.
> ...


you saw one as a kid? even if you can not remember the model, is there anything you remember that you can tell me about them?


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*



captain jack said:


> yeah. that's hard to read. I didn't write it. he did. anyone ever watch "hold fast"? you can watch it on YouTube. it's pretty cool. anyhow, the guy narrating it claims that there are a lot of abandoned boats at marinas, and just out there, all over. people who couldn't pay for their slips or whatever. he says these boats often go for a song.


He's right, down here there are a lot of abandoned boats in yards and marinas. The problem is they are often in really bad shape, otherwise owners or yards would have sold them. They've usually sat so long that they need substantial work, structural and otherwise.

The question you have to ask is, "is this boat worth the effort?". Even if it's free, you can expect to put several thousand dollars into it, probably more than you'd pay to buy one in good shape. If it's a high quality build boat, the end result may be worth having, but if it's not, you are just throwing your money away. You have to decide if the quality of the finished boat is worth the investment.

For example, I recently saw a NorSea 27 abandoned in a yard with no rig and no hardware, I figure probably $30k in improvements along with a lot of personal time to work on the boat. The end result, IMO, would be worth it. OTOH there was an abandoned Hunter that had the rig, and was in one piece, but probably wasn't worth the few thousand it would take to get seaworthy again.

Only you can make the decision on what to do, you have to decide if the investment is worth it. My personal *opinion* is that J-24s are a dime a dozen and you could probably buy one in better shape with the money you'd invest fixing this one up. They are cool boats, but not worth the time and money it would take. That's my opinion, it's up to you to decide.


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## Smier (Nov 14, 2012)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

I have 2 "free" boats. Which is a lie, because both have cost me a fair amount of money. The biggest issue besides all the work, is can you even get legal ownership of this boat? Next, is the boat complete? Some items may be impossible to find for an old boat. Unless it were a really popular old boat with a huge following like Catalina's for example. The fact that you will need to find someplace to pay to store it is a deal breaker for me. Both of my "free" boats sit on trailers for free, and I can work on them in my backyard if I want to. Being realistic, are you willing to spend more to fix this boat up than it is worth? Do you have the tools and equipment to repair this boat yourself? Do you enjoy fixing things? Lots of things to think about...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*



Shinook said:


> He's right, down here there are a lot of abandoned boats in yards and marinas. The problem is they are often in really bad shape, otherwise owners or yards would have sold them. They've usually sat so long that they need substantial work, structural and otherwise.
> 
> The question you have to ask is, "is this boat worth the effort?". Even if it's free, you can expect to put several thousand dollars into it, probably more than you'd pay to buy one in good shape. If it's a high quality build boat, the end result may be worth having, but if it's not, you are just throwing your money away. You have to decide if the quality of the finished boat is worth the investment.
> 
> ...


that's what I aim to do today. see what it will take to fix. if I deem it too extensive, I will walk away. I notice, from the pic, it's missing hatches. that's a cost. it has new sails. that's a lot of money saved. sails aren't cheap even if you get them cheap. if the hull and all the things needed to actually sail are good, just muddy, then it comes down to the interior.

one thing that is for sure, regardless of how 'reasonably priced' and older boat may be, it is highly unlikely, without some miracle, that I will be able to afford one in the next 5 years. but, if this one is worth fixing, I can fix this one up. sail it now, and maybe, if I find one of those reasonably priced boats, in a year or two, sell this one to put towards the cost of a better one. i will probably not get my time or money investment out of it but that's not important. time is mine to spend and money spent over time, to fix something is easier to come by than money saved to buy a better boat. i'm not well to do or even comfortable. when I try to save money, an emergency always pops up to take it. but money spent is money an emergency can't take. I know that sounds illogical but it's how it works.

I guess I will see what the deal is wen I see it, in person. it might be a miracle for this to not be a bad deal but miracles do happen. earlier, this year, I got caught out on lake Marburg, in Hanover Pennsylvania, in a 30 minute squall. 30kt winds that blew in sudden 2' steep waves. I was in my 9' dinghy, of all things. but I saw it coming a few minutes before it hit and I managed to keep her upright and sailing to get back to the dock. it was a tense 20 minutes but I did it. miracles do happen. if you stop believing they can, life gets awful grim.
the question is: is this such a 'miracle'? time will tell.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*



Smier said:


> I have 2 "free" boats. Which is a lie, because both have cost me a fair amount of money. The biggest issue besides all the work, is can you even get legal ownership of this boat? Next, is the boat complete? Some items may be impossible to find for an old boat. Unless it were a really popular old boat with a huge following like Catalina's for example. The fact that you will need to find someplace to pay to store it is a deal breaker for me. Both of my "free" boats sit on trailers for free, and I can work on them in my backyard if I want to. Being realistic, are you willing to spend more to fix this boat up than it is worth? Do you have the tools and equipment to repair this boat yourself? Do you enjoy fixing things? Lots of things to think about...


all very good points. nothing, in life, is free. that's just the truth. you may not be paying a hooker's fee but, if you are having sex, you paid for it, one way or the other. know what I mean?

I do have the tools and skills. I have worked almost all trades in construction, to some degree, all of my life. I built my own chopper, in my mom's driveway; fabricating 80% of the parts from raw materials and modifying another 10% of the bought parts. I didn't chop an existing bike. there simply wasn't one, when I started. I did extensive modification to my 9' dinghy, including designing and making the sail and all the spars and rudder and converting it from dagger board to long shallow keel.

having the skills isn't a problem. time is a worse problem, as is money. but the biggest problem is a place to keep it. if I am lucky, maybe I can afford a spot at a marina and acquire a trailer. I haven't had a chance to check marina costs, although I have an idea of a place. it's too bad i'm not more social. I might know someone, down there, with dock space behind their house, if I was. but I don't.

I was thinking about checking on the cost to have it hauled and keep it on the dry as I get it back into shape. but all that remains to be seen, at this point. but, as you guys point out, that will all go into figuring out if I will take it. he supposedly has the title. so, I can check with the DLLR to see if I can get it free and clear. if I can't, I certainly won't take it. no point in bothering.

I have work to do on my holiday20. it just needs cleaning, but I have to find a way, at my mother's house ( where I keep it ), to remove it from the trailer to weld the trailer, where rust has hurt it. it's been sitting for some time.

worse comes to worse, this boat is on the water, not an hour from it on an unusable trailer. If it's not hopeless, I could clean it up and sail it, now, while I fix my other boat's trailer, then sell it cheap or give it away, in better shape than I found it. people deserve a second chance. why not boats?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

one thing I will say, I don't totally trust this guy. he has been elusive, since the beginning. he wouldn't tell me what it is. I figure he doesn't know. he still hasn't given me the address. he is waiting for the last minute. I can understand that, I guess. I saw the add on craigslist. he doesn't know me and it's at his aunt's house. I might be wary about having some stranger just show up, at her house, too. but still...I am going to be really wary of him and make sure everything is legit.


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## Smier (Nov 14, 2012)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

Sounds like you at least have an idea and a tentative plan, can it be done? Yes:




























This represents approximately $750 in repairs to boat and trailer and probably 100+ hours of my time, but I love working on things!


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

hey. thanks for the support. it's a crazy question but is that at the sailboat launch at lake Marburg, codorus state park? it looks like it.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

in fact....that boat looks familiar. I may have spoken to you, before. either earlier this year or last fall. that's a nice boat. it's cool that you saved it from a fate worse than death. sailboats should be sailing, not rotting away....well, not that fiberglass actually rots lol


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*



captain jack said:


> here is the picture as she sits. had trouble finding it.


The bumpy surface on the hull: is it mud or barnacles? Barnacles might be a challenge, especially if they have been out of the water long enough to dry out. And, if they are barnacles, it means this boat was under water a long time.

The more the OP tells about the situation, the worse it sounds. Free seems more expensive all the time.


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## Smier (Nov 14, 2012)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

No, I haven't been down that way. I frequent Spruce Run reservoir in NJ and Lake Nockamixon in Pa with the Compac 16. The Starwind 22 in my avatar was also free, but has required more work and $$$. I've been working on it off and on for a year now with an expected launch date of next spring. I am setting it up for long family weekend trips on the Chesapeake. I could make money on the Compac if I sell it, the Starwind I will probably spend just about what it's worth fixing it up how I want it, but I'm going a little crazy on it... This is of course not putting any value on my time invested, but restoring/modifying things is my hobby/stress relief, so it keeps me from strangling my family and coworkers!


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## Shinook (Jul 13, 2012)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*



captain jack said:


> one thing that is for sure, regardless of how 'reasonably priced' and older boat may be, it is highly unlikely, without some miracle, that I will be able to afford one in the next 5 years. but, if this one is worth fixing, I can fix this one up. sail it now, and maybe, if I find one of those reasonably priced boats, in a year or two, sell this one to put towards the cost of a better one. i will probably not get my time or money investment out of it but that's not important. time is mine to spend and money spent over time, to fix something is easier to come by than money saved to buy a better boat.


I can understand that for sure. Where are you located?

Be sure to account for storage costs and, if you get overwhelmed, the cost of getting rid of it. For me, I've seen a few free boats I'd take, but I don't have room for them in my back yard and I'm not going to pay to keep it somewhere to work on.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*



captain jack said:


> one thing I will say, I don't totally trust this guy. he has been elusive, since the beginning. he wouldn't tell me what it is. I figure he doesn't know. he still hasn't given me the address. he is waiting for the last minute. I can understand that, I guess. I saw the add on craigslist. he doesn't know me and it's at his aunt's house. I might be wary about having some stranger just show up, at her house, too. but still...I am going to be really wary of him and make sure everything is legit.


Sorry.... based on what we've seen/read here, I'd save myself the trip...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*



Smier said:


> No, I haven't been down that way. I frequent Spruce Run reservoir in NJ and Lake Nockamixon in Pa with the Compac 16. The Starwind 22 in my avatar was also free, but has required more work and $$$. I've been working on it off and on for a year now with an expected launch date of next spring. I am setting it up for long family weekend trips on the Chesapeake. I could make money on the Compac if I sell it, the Starwind I will probably spend just about what it's worth fixing it up how I want it, but I'm going a little crazy on it... This is of course not putting any value on my time invested, but restoring/modifying things is my hobby/stress relief, so it keeps me from strangling my family and coworkers!


that's wild. the last picture looks like the area at the launch, at Marburg, where people keep their boats and I was talking to a guy with a compact 16, a little while back. it looked like yours. I had never seen one and was interested about the shoal keel's performance.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*



NCC320 said:


> The bumpy surface on the hull: is it mud or barnacles? Barnacles might be a challenge, especially if they have been out of the water long enough to dry out. And, if they are barnacles, it means this boat was under water a long time.
> 
> The more the OP tells about the situation, the worse it sounds. Free seems more expensive all the time.


while I can't vouch for anything the guy says, as I haven't seen the boat yet, it was supposedly not actually under water and the mud on it, now, happened during the last 4 months that he had it and it was on the water. it's a real mystery boat. he still hasn't emailed me the address, yet, and I need to leave in 2 hours to get there.

and, of course, i'm wondering why all the mystery. it makes me very wary. lol. that rhymed. anyway, all the mystery, from him, is making sure I look everything over with a fine toothed comb. if it's just a boat he needs to get rid of, why not be more straight forward? it would be rude to just ask him that, but i'm sure thinking it. but I still can't walk away from a possible opportunity without, at least, looking at it.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*



Shinook said:


> I can understand that for sure. Where are you located?
> 
> Be sure to account for storage costs and, if you get overwhelmed, the cost of getting rid of it. For me, I've seen a few free boats I'd take, but I don't have room for them in my back yard and I'm not going to pay to keep it somewhere to work on.


I am located in Frederick, Maryland. the boat is located in Essex, Maryland, where my girlfriend lives. I saw the add and after he told me the boat was in Essex, I immediately asked if it was on back river, which is where I have been sailing my dinghy this summer. sailed in baltimore's inner harbor Monday. that was really cool.

anyway, if I had the time, after I learned about this boat, i'd have gone sailing down back river to see if I could find it.

I don't need to pay someone to work on it. I can do that. but storage is an issue. I don't have a trailer for it and, even if I did, I would have to keep it at my mom's house and she wouldn't go for that. I already keep one boat there. there is a nice marina right at the dock, where I sail from, on back river. it's full service and has floating docks. I was speaking to a guy with a multi-hull, who keeps his boat there, as I sailed by, the first time I sailed there. he says they arte really reasonable but what is reasonable, to him, might be outlandish, to me. that is something I need to check into, yet.


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## sully75 (Jun 17, 2013)

*re: "Free boat" seaworthiness*

Seriously don't take it. There's no reason at this point to take a serious fixer upper at this point unless it offers you something that the cheap but not free boat doesn't. If that thing ever sails you will have spent far more fixing it than you would have buying a good cheap boat to begin with. It's very expensive to buy anything at all for a boat so you will be in for several grand easy no matter what. You could spend that money on a boat in better shape that would just sail.

You have to pick the boat you save. You can't save them all. So pick a healthy one.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

*Re: j24 seaworthiness*

well, sight unseen, I don't know just how bad or good it is. if it's seriously bad, I wouldn't take it.

but it may be a moot point. I called the first marina. obviously, I have different ideas of reasonable than multi-hull guy.

350 for the winter, on the water. not terrible.
650 to haul it, block it up, clean it, and launch in the spring. I wouldn't have to deal with cleaning it, then, at least not the outside. and I would be able to care for the entire hull. no water in the winter but full electric access.
2000 for a year. maybe I am cheap...or just a poor sailor....but that's a good bit.

worst part is, it's all payable up front. even 350, up front, is out of my price range. i'd have had to save up for that and this was unexpected.

it's just too bad i'm not friends with anyone that lives on the water, there.

I will keep checking around back river, though. I can sail it to where it needs to go, but I can't pull money from trees.

I may just have to give it up, regardless of it's condition.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Capt Jack.. I've renamed the thread title because this is in no way a discussion of J-24s..

Your last sentence in your last post gives me hope


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

I cannot believe all the naysaying wet blankets in this thread posting before he's even seen the boat in person. My experience hath shown that those types have issues that have nothing to do with "free boats", the boat simply becomes a metaphor for what is wrong in their lives. I say go see it and if it floats, take it. Heck, a non-working outboard could simply need a new spark plug, a $2 investment that you can sell for $250. New sails you can sell for a damn fine profit. Go for it!


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Faster said:


> Capt Jack.. I've renamed the thread title because this is in no way a discussion of J-24s..
> 
> Your last sentence in your last post gives me hope


thanks. I was thinking of asking to have it renamed.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

ericb760 said:


> I cannot believe all the naysaying wet blankets in this thread posting before he's even seen the boat in person. My experience hath shown that those types have issues that have nothing to do with "free boats", the boat simply becomes a metaphor for what is wrong in their lives. I say go see it and if it floats, take it. Heck, a non-working outboard could simply need a new spark plug, a $2 investment that you can sell for $250. New sails you can sell for a damn fine profit. Go for it!


that's my thought. of course, if I find no place to keep it and no way to haul it away, I may have to give up....not that I want to.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

well, he sent me the address. guess I will, at the very least, be taking a look at it. I will let you know how it goes. I will try to take some pics.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Good luck. It's hard to resist the siren song of a free boat. But before you take it, consider everything carefully. What if the current owner is lying, and she was under water for more than a few days? What if the missing hatch has allowed water to build up in the cabin and ruined the bulkheads? What if the chainplates are attached to the bulkheads? What if the engine was waterlogged and has tons of salt in it? What if the sails are also full of salt? 

Yes, the above can all be fixed. But at what cost? What could you buy for what you'll spend on fixing up this boat? Granted, no boat, not even a new one, is truly perfect right when you buy it, and you'll always want to make changes. But THIS boat isn't going to get you out on the water any time soon, and if it were me, I'd be worrying about what unknown issues are waiting for me. I think I'd pass on this boat and find something else. As you know, there ARE others out there, both free and low cost. Given your representations about your financial status, I'd also suggest that this boat is going to suck more out of your savings than you might like. I'd hate to hear that a fellow Sailnetter bought a boat and it became another "broken dream" boat. I'd rather hear about how you enhanced your existing boats and how much you enjoy them. Keep in mind that salvaging a boat, even a free boat, frequently costs more than you get from the sale of the parts.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Don't take that boat.. my gawd it looks like an EPA disaster! LOL anyway there's a 27ft Nearly free boat in my club, I think it's a swan. Gas engine not an A4 the kid had problems with the carb, and some other things I don't know about but he's not a member of my club anymore and the boat needs to go. *I can inquire about it if you want her. * The rigged an outboard on it. but that's all I know. never seen the inside of it. She's a keel boat has a cradle Nice lines. kinda Albin like.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

This one just has to take a serious amount of rationalization to make work.


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## sully75 (Jun 17, 2013)

Most respectfully (I mean that!) if $350 is going to slow you down, I think you should definitely not buy the boat. It's just the beginning of a long road. I bought a pretty good boat this summer for $6500. I'm probably going to put $6500 into it this year to fix a lot of things I discovered along the way (this is after having it surveyed). Money just goes. I'm currently spending money I don't have on things I need, but I have a good job and can pay the stuff off. It's a long story.

Seriously though, there are awesome trailerable sailboats and you can have an amazing time on them. I don't regret going with the boat that I ended up with, but an Oday 2+2 or something like that would be cheap and you could do plenty of amazing stuff with it. You'll be learning on a real boat instead of putting money you don't have into something that ultimately isn't worth it. And if you can't afford hauling and launching and dockspace etc...you can't afford it. It's going to not be fun.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Almost all boats for sale are overpriced. That includes free ones!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Captain Jack! This is the boat that needs to go: 
























I have a phone number, and I know he owes the club some money. Boat Angel from Ebay had it but the deal went bad so it's still here. 
It does float by the way.


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## Smier (Nov 14, 2012)

Oh man, that's a beauty Denise! Just what I need, another boat! I. Must. Resist... Haha


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

It has nice lines. I don't know that it is a swan but I've been told it is. 70s something is the year. Like most boats up this way, it's never been in the water much.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I would be willing to bet you that the boat, motor, and maybe even the "brand new" sails have spent at least a month (maybe a year or more) on the bottom, and that the interior is just as much of a muddy mess as the exterior. Here's a boat that was floated from the bottom of my river after a couple months, and the one you're interested in is even worse:


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Might be an Edel. 

I agree it looks like it's been raised. Put in a lot of work and you'd have a decent hull & deck moulding to start building a boat with.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Dude, take the boat if it has a lead keel. Cut the keel off and sell it for scrap, scavenge anything that might be useful and cut up the hull for landfill. The money you get from the scrap yard should buy you a decent boat you will actually enjoy sailing. That thing looks like a disaster.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

krisscross said:


> Dude, take the boat if it has a lead keel. Cut the keel off and sell it for scrap, scavenge anything that might be useful and cut up the hull for landfill. The money you get from the scrap yard should buy you a decent boat you will actually enjoy sailing.


correct that to: not even cover the costs of disposing of the hull and/or storing the heap while scavenging it.

Why else do you think this guy wants to give it away? I'm sure even BoatAngel wouldn't take this thing. If $350 is beyond your budget, there is NO WAY you can get this done without running out of money.


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

Whoever takes it will make money on it, even if it's the salvage yard that gets called to just get rid of it. If I was anywhere close I'd scavenge those winches and the sails myself. Not all of us can afford to buy this stuff new...and yet, there are poorer sailors than me that would buy this scavenged "garbage" in a heartbeat.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

clearly the boat is covered with barnacles


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

deniseO30 said:


> Captain Jack! This is the boat that needs to go:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


that is really nice. how much you think he wants? i am sure i could never afford it. what do you use to pull such a trailer?

well, still didn't see the boat! huge accident on the highway. held me up for over an hour. would have been dark by the time i got there so we rescheduled for 10am saturday. i did a drive by so i know exactly where it is. my fault this time. i asked him for the HIN. when i get the chance to see my email i will see if he sent it.

he is going to just cut it up for the landfill, if i don't take it. if i can't find a marina i can afford, i may see if he will, at least, let me strip it. i can use some of that stuff on my holiday20. but i hate to see a boat just get cut up.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Jack, I think the accident was a sign.

Seeing if he'll let you salvage some of the stuff isn't a bad idea in theory, but it may be shot. Make sure you clean and test anything before installing it.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

jimgo said:


> Jack, I think the accident was a sign.
> 
> Seeing if he'll let you salvage some of the stuff isn't a bad idea in theory, but it may be shot. Make sure you clean and test anything before installing it.


besides the sails, i would be salvaging the rails, blocks, and that kind of stuff.


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

Assuming you have a way to dispose of chunks of fiberglass, and a place to do the salvage work, do you think ten Sawzall blades, a pair of Tyvek coveralls, and a respirator or at least some good quality dust masks would do the trick?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

rgscpat said:


> Assuming you have a way to dispose of chunks of fiberglass, and a place to do the salvage work, do you think ten Sawzall blades, a pair of Tyvek coveralls, and a respirator or at least some good quality dust masks would do the trick?


odd question but I suppose so. cutting it up, myself, would be a last resort. rather than lose all the possible usable parts completely, I would go that route. but my goal would be to clean it up, fix what needs fixing, and sail it.


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

It's never that easy. If it were he would have people lined up. He literally can't give it away. If it were worth any amount of money he'd be selling it and someone would buy it. No such thing as a free boat.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

sully75 said:


> Most respectfully (I mean that!) if $350 is going to slow you down, I think you should definitely not buy the boat. It's just the beginning of a long road. I bought a pretty good boat this summer for $6500. I'm probably going to put $6500 into it this year to fix a lot of things I discovered along the way (this is after having it surveyed). Money just goes. I'm currently spending money I don't have on things I need, but I have a good job and can pay the stuff off. It's a long story.
> 
> Seriously though, there are awesome trailerable sailboats and you can have an amazing time on them. I don't regret going with the boat that I ended up with, but an Oday 2+2 or something like that would be cheap and you could do plenty of amazing stuff with it. You'll be learning on a real boat instead of putting money you don't have into something that ultimately isn't worth it. And if you can't afford hauling and launching and dockspace etc...you can't afford it. It's going to not be fun.


$350 isn't what would slow me down. it's $350 right now all at once. I can't just pull money out of my butt. if I could i'd spend all day picking my ass. lol. seriously, though. I need time to gather that kind of money. I can't just yank it out of the bank. I don't have it.

what kind of boat did you buy for $6500 and still need to put another $6500 into it? it must really be something. for Pete's sake, I bought my holiday 20 from a guy, who needed to sell it badly in November one year, for $800 and I had to put $0.00 into it to fix it up.

everyone keeps talking about putting money into something that isn't worth it. I know that no one wants to see me make a big mistake but what determines value? is it resale value? if so, that's a losing game. depending on how long you own any boat, unless it's the HMS Bounty or something, you are going to lose most of your investment when you sell it. things that get used depreciate in value.

to me, value is what something brings into your life. now, I wouldn't take this boat, even if I owned my own boat yard, if it was not a functional boat. but what does it take to be a functional boat?

1) a water tight hull. that's the biggest thing.
2) decent spars and standing rigging. 
3) a big plus is a good rudder, although one could be fabricated. I do fabricate things but I will list it as a necessity
4) sails are important on my list because they are a costly item and you need them to sail

that's pretty much it. with those things, and nothing else, I can sail her. use azak planks to cover the missing hatches so rain can't get in and you have a usable sailboat.

if the blocks are bad, I could make blocks, although i'd probably buy them one at a time. people used to make blocks by hand so I can do that.
lines can be cleaned or replaced. that's a normal wear item.
I could make a new tiller if that one is shot.
that piece of damaged rub rail is n big thing. 
any interior stuff: cabinetry, berth cushions, etc can be made as I go along and the materials aren't that costly. I have the tools and skills. in fact, even if I had to gut the entire interior down to the liner, I could build a new interior. not much different than building houses and I do that.
so, what else is there? maybe some fiberglass repair if there are bad spots. not that hard. paint. bottom paint and top paint. not needed to sail, immediately. still, it's a normal maintenance item. 
the hatches? if I can't manufacture new ones, then I really have lost my skills.

so, if you really look at it clearly, as long as I check the first four items carefully, the cost of fixing the rest is not that much. I could, pretty much, get use of the boat almost immediately ( after a bath...for the boat, not me ). the really big hurdle, and I think the highest cost, is a place to keep it.

this boat has an advantage over my holiday. my holiday, the boat itself, needs no real work to be sailed. oh, after sitting, the halyards need cleaned and it could use a little paint. I could have been sailing it all summer. however, the trailer has rusted out on the central frame beam; the tongue as it extends to the axle. it rusted through right where it hits the axle frame member. I can't get to it to weld it with the boat on it. not having a big fork lift, a crane, or a large pond in my back yard; I am having an issue with getting the boat off of the trailer, in my mom's yard, to fix the trailer. fixing the trailer will be easy. it's getting the boat off of it that is hard and I can't take the boat anywhere to remove it because the trailer is unsafe.

but this boat is already on the water. if I can find a place to keep it, and muster the funds for docking rent, I can clean her up and sail her anytime I want. unlike the holiday, which requires another person to help me raise the mast ( I can't lift it in place, hold it there AND hook up the jib stay at the same time ), this boat already has a stepped mast and wouldn't need trailered. I could just drive to the water, carrying my sails in a sail bag, and, after bending the sails on, sail away. no fuss and I could do it solo, if I need to.

one big issue, with the holiday is, even if I fix the trailer and can start sailing tomorrow, my girlfriend's apartment complex doesn't allow trailers. she lives near the bay. so, on the weekends, when I stay down there with her, I can't just pull the boat down with me and go sailing. i'd have to go down Friday night, come back up for the boat Saturday and head back down to the water to sail, then bring it back Saturday night, and head back down Saturday night. that's over an hour each way. including my trip home Sunday night, or Monday, that's 6 hours on the road and I only get to sail one day. what if I wanted to sail a Sunday? I can't keep the trailer there overnight. so, to use my holiday, I will need to find some place, down there, to store it. then I can just drive over to where I store it and pick it up. but that is still a storage fee. so I will be paying to store a boat either way.

anyhow, that's where my thoughts are taking me. but, either way, if I can't find an affordable marina, I can't take the boat except to scrap it out...and I don't know if I can bring myself to cut a functioning boat up.

now, today, since I thought the boat was on back river, I only checked there for a marina. the boat is actually on middle river, so I can check there. it's further from Baltimore so maybe I will have better luck. things get more expensive the closer you get to the inner harbor.

you ever see those cups at bars or convenience stores; the ones with someone's picture and hard luck story on them asking for donations? I should put a save the sailboat cup at a few different places and see if I can get donations. if you word it well, you can get people to donate to anything. lol. I mean, if you get 1000 people to donate a single dollar, each...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

NewportNewbie said:


> It's never that easy. If it were he would have people lined up. He literally can't give it away. If it were worth any amount of money he'd be selling it and someone would buy it. No such thing as a free boat.


there was a guy that tried to get it the weekend before I saw the ad. it fell through when he couldn't find a trailer. same problem I have: how or where to take it.


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## abrahamx (Apr 3, 2006)

Well its already been determined that you cant come up with the three fifty for the yard so why are we still talking about this? Plus you will need that much to ship it or build a trailer for it. Plus you already have two boats. Sell those, if you can, the boat market is down and boats are not selling quick, and pick up a bigger boat is what I would suggest. If a bigger boat is what you are looking for?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

If we're pretty sure that this boat spent time submerged, with no hatch, it's going to require much more than cleaning up. Every deck penetration from above and below (typically below is not a concern) that wasn't perfectly bedded, will have let water into the core. Water under pressure, btw. If that penetration and was anywhere near a chain plate, she would be dangerous, even if you cleaned her up and she looked okay. Are you able to determine if she has delamination? Then, can you tell if the standing rigging is safe? How will you get up the mast? When these parts corrode, they can't just be cleaned up, they must be replaced. Otherwise, wire under a thousand pounds of force could slap down on your head.

The points made about negative value are not a concern over resale. The point is that anything you spend on making this boat sailable will be more than you would have to pay to buy the same boat you end up with. Odds are that this boat will be disposable too and then you'll have to give it away or pay to have it scrapped and the money is gone. Better to buy a boat with that same money that will last.

Good luck, everyone is just trying to be helpful.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

"Rotten to the core" comes to mind. Be careful. Your prior experience with daysailors may not translate to this boat. There's a whole lot more that can go wrong, a whole lot more $$$ that you may have to pour into it. Most of the $$$ will have to be paid up-front.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

captain jack said:


> that is really nice. how much you think he wants? i am sure i could never afford it. what do you use to pull such a trailer?


Jack it's not a trailer boat. If you look you can see the cradle. the hydraulic trailer is used for lifting and moving the boats in/out the water and around the yard. I have seen the boat move with the inboard running.

the story I have so far is Boat angel sold if for $100 but the deal fell through. As far as I know at this point he owes the boat club only $200. I have no interest in this other then trying to help my club get rid of another "dead boat" Last night I was given permission the "find" someone that would want to take this boat. Anyone interested contact me please!


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Dude, I am one of the biggest advocates of saving abandoned boats on this forum and even I say that this is too far gone, and beyond your means.

Walk away.


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## xymotic (Mar 4, 2005)

Then again; sometimes you can take a free boat, slap a little paint on it and sell it for $400








Livingston

They want $100 more than this one..
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/4139879164.html

THere's one born every minute I guess


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

deniseO30 said:


> Jack it's not a trailer boat. If you look you can see the cradle. the hydraulic trailer is used for lifting and moving the boats in/out the water and around the yard. I have seen the boat move with the inboard running.
> 
> the story I have so far is Boat angel sold if for $100 but the deal fell through. As far as I know at this point he owes the boat club only $200. I have no interest in this other then trying to help my club get rid of another "dead boat" Last night I was given permission the "find" someone that would want to take this boat. Anyone interested contact me please!


i thought that didn't look pull-able. so, you are talking around $200? where are you guys, in Pa?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

well, rest at ease. he can't find the title, either. he just emailed me that, this morning. I asked him to fetch the HIN for me but I doubt he does. I told him I was 'doubtful' it was a j-24. I will probably ask him if I can take some stuff from it, before he cuts it up, or take it and strip it and cut it up, myself. I would hate to do that, but without a legal title.....plus, you are right about unseen safety issues. that is a concern.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

captain jack said:


> ........I could have been sailing it all summer. however, the trailer has rusted out on the central frame beam; the tongue as it extends to the axle. it rusted through right where it hits the axle frame member. I can't get to it to weld it with the boat on it. not having a big fork lift, a crane, or a large pond in my back yard; I am having an issue with getting the boat off of the trailer, in my mom's yard, to fix the trailer. fixing the trailer will be easy. it's getting the boat off of it that is hard and I can't take the boat anywhere to remove it because the trailer is unsafe.......
> 
> .......but this boat is already on the water. if I can find a place to keep it, and muster the funds for docking rent.......
> 
> ...


So, what will you do with the Holliday and when will you do it? That rusty trailer is only going to get worse as time passes. Mom isn't going to be too happy with it abandoned in place. Simply getting it moved, or off the trailer is a small issue compared to restoring the free boat to a useable status. The free boat is going to take a lot more than just cleaning her up.

Just my thought, but maybe it's better to deal with the first problem boat (the one in Mom's yard) before taking on another problem boat. Boat yards (and anyone else) are unlikely to accept the free boat on their property as it is now because of the possibility (or rather the likelihood) of it eventually being abandoned on their property. Fix the trailer and use the Holliday for sailing until you get in a better financial situation.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> If we're pretty sure that this boat spent time submerged, with no hatch, it's going to require much more than cleaning up. Every deck penetration from above and below (typically below is not a concern) that wasn't perfectly bedded, will have let water into the core. Water under pressure, btw. If that penetration and was anywhere near a chain plate, she would be dangerous, even if you cleaned her up and she looked okay. Are you able to determine if she has delamination? Then, can you tell if the standing rigging is safe? How will you get up the mast? When these parts corrode, they can't just be cleaned up, they must be replaced. Otherwise, wire under a thousand pounds of force could slap down on your head.
> 
> The points made about negative value are not a concern over resale. The point is that anything you spend on making this boat sailable will be more than you would have to pay to buy the same boat you end up with. Odds are that this boat will be disposable too and then you'll have to give it away or pay to have it scrapped and the money is gone. Better to buy a boat with that same money that will last.
> 
> Good luck, everyone is just trying to be helpful.


I know that, dude. I hope you guys don't think I was fussing at you. I wasn't. I know that you guys just don't want to see me get stuck with an albatross around my neck.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

NCC320 said:


> So, what will you do with the Holliday and when will you do it? That rusty trailer is only going to get worse as time passes. Mom isn't going to be too happy with it abandoned in place. Simply getting it moved, or off the trailer is a small issue compared to restoring the free boat to a useable status. The free boat is going to take a lot more than just cleaning her up.
> 
> Just my thought, but maybe it's better to deal with the first problem boat (the one in Mom's yard) before taking on another problem boat. Boat yards (and anyone else) are unlikely to accept the free boat on their property as it is now because of the possibility (or rather the likelihood) of it eventually being abandoned on their property. Fix the trailer and use the Holliday for sailing until you get in a better financial situation.


that is looking like what is going to happen. which might be the start of another post: how does one man, with no crane or other equipment, get a 20' 1000# boat off of a trailer and back on again? lol. I have some ideas. I just haven't had the chance to put them to the test.. then, this boat 'opportunity' came up.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Jack, why not see if you can rent some jack stands or rig a cradle for the boat? If you lift the boat with the stands/cradle (my thought was four car jacks under the cradle), you may be able to slide the trailer out. Or, heck, at 1000 lbs, get all the crap out of the boat and get 10-15 friends to help you lift it.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

denise030 asks a really good question. what have I been looking to get out of this boat ( to paraphrase a bit )? well, I would ideally like something a bit more seaworthy and stable than a day sailor. something I could, at least, do an overnight or weekend in. I would like to start cruising the bay, proper, and I think something more than a day sailor would be best. I don't need big, though. like I had mentioned, earlier, a Nordica/halman 20 or a flicka would be ideal. but, something around that range would be what I am seeking. that 27 footer is beautiful and early free, as she says, but, realistically, i'd not only have to find a place to keep that boat but I'd also have to transport it down here. that's really more boat than I can handle, at this point in life. I think 25' would be maximum. a little less would be a bit better. this boat looked as if it might have been an opportunity for that. but....maybe not. lol


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

captain jack said:


> denise030 asks a really good question.


She does that a lot.



captain jack said:


> that 27 footer is beautiful and early free, as she says, but, realistically, i'd not only have to find a place to keep that boat but I'd also have to transport it down here.


Negotiate with the club to store her there over this winter, then sail her down in the spring.



captain jack said:


> that's really more boat than I can handle, at this point in life.


I'm confused, then, why you think you'll be game for gutting the other boat while she's in the water. That's going to be a physically demanding job, probably moreso than motor-sailing that 27 from Philly to the Chesapeake.



captain jack said:


> I think 25' would be maximum. a little less would be a bit better. this boat looked as if it might have been an opportunity for that. but....maybe not. lol


I'm in my 40's, so maybe I don't have the right perspective. A 25' and 27' boat are going to have close to the same sail area, so the force on the sail is going to be approximately the same. That means that the strength you'll need to wrestle the 27's sails will be about the same as a 25. If the issue is with the ability to control a 27' when you're used to something smaller, I wouldn't worry too much. We jumped from a 14' rental to a 25'. It took about 3 tries docking to start to get comfortable. The next year (this past season) we jumped to a 31. I think the "new" boat is easier to handle than the 25.


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## Smier (Nov 14, 2012)

Jack, have you considered crewing on others boats? For example, I'll be overnighting and crewing on a friends 28' Catalina this weekend, some of us are always looking for crew just to get out and have a good time sailing.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

captain jack said:


> ...how does one man, with no crane or other equipment, get a 20' 1000# boat off of a trailer and back on again? lol. I have some ideas. I just haven't had the chance to put them to the test.. then, this boat 'opportunity' came up.


V-e-r-r-r-y carefully? 
"Egyptian technology" - read "Wooden Boats",by Ruhlman, to see how the folk at Gannon & Benjamin boatshop on Martha's Vineyard use the simplest of tools to move the heaviest of boats.

"Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand, and I shall move the world."
--Archimedes of Syracuse


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

captain jack said:


> twhich might be the start of another post: how does one man, with no crane or other equipment, get a 20' 1000# boat off of a trailer and back on again? lol. I have some ideas. I just haven't had the chance to put them to the test.. then, this boat 'opportunity' came up.


Dude, I do it all the time, with a bunch of cinderblocks, two 10' long 8" thick locust logs with slabbed ends (to prevent rolling) and a car jack. Easy peasy. Set the blocks wide enough for the trailer to pass between them. I have 3 boats and 2 trailers which I swap between the boats as I need.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

captain jack said:


> $350 isn't what would slow me down. it's $350 right now all at once. I can't just pull money out of my butt. if I could i'd spend all day picking my ass. lol. seriously, though. I need time to gather that kind of money. I can't just yank it out of the bank. I don't have it.


If $350 presents a problem for you at any time, you can't afford a sailboat of any kind.

Trust me. 

There's a very good reason why $1000 is called a "Boat buck".

Here's a fresh, concrete example. On Tuesday two friends & I brought my 30' boat down from its berth to be hauled for the winter.

Out of pocket expenditures for me were as follows;

$20 - Food & drink for the trip.
$15 - Gas for the car for the trip.
$10 - Diesel for the boat.
$350 - Haul, pressure wash & block the boat.

And that's only the start - now the real expenses begin.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Jack I did send you a pm. We are on the Delaware River. and you can take her all the way home by water. You need the experience anyway;  find a friend that knows the way and has a 6-10 hp 2 stroke outboard, come see the boat, which Is is nearly free since the club only wants it's storage fee, far as I know. BUT, you keep saying you don't have anywhere to take the boat. Consider joining a YC. way cheaper then marinas in most cases.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

jimgo said:


> She does that a lot.
> 
> Negotiate with the club to store her there over this winter, then sail her down in the spring.
> 
> ...


negotiating is an idea. I will have to consider that. I didn't mean more than I can handle as far as size. from my experience, it's actually easier sailing a bigger boat. less tender, etc. my 9' dinghy is the most challenging boat I have sailed, once the wind gets up, even if it was my first boat. when I bought the holiday, I will admit I saw the size and was a tad nervous about it, but it's a lot easier to sail than my dinghy. the first time i took her out, I single handed her. hell, she even sailed herself, one time, while I was up on the bow lashing down the jib, after lowering it due to suddenly high winds. that's a funny story, too. never tell a person who hasn't sailed," hold her steady as she goes", as you get up and walk to the bow of a boat. you really need to make sure they understand they have to hold the tiller, first.

I meant that I am thinking a boat nearly 30 feet would cost more to maintain and store. when calling marinas, they all asked the size of the boat before giving me a price. but, I do see what you mean. 24' to 27' is only 3'. lol.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

jimgo said:


> Jack, why not see if you can rent some jack stands or rig a cradle for the boat? If you lift the boat with the stands/cradle (my thought was four car jacks under the cradle), you may be able to slide the trailer out. Or, heck, at 1000 lbs, get all the crap out of the boat and get 10-15 friends to help you lift it.


both of those are good ideas. I didn't know you could rent those.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Smier said:


> Jack, have you considered crewing on others boats? For example, I'll be overnighting and crewing on a friends 28' Catalina this weekend, some of us are always looking for crew just to get out and have a good time sailing.


that's a thought. it would get me practice with bigger boats; winches and stuff. I don't really know anyone with a bigger boat, though. hmmm. no. that's a lie. practically everyone at Marburg knows me. I might have to ask someone about that, next time i'm up there.

although, I'll be honest, throughout my sailing life, I've never let a little thing like not having ever done something slow me down. lol. but a bit of practice would make it easier when i'm the skipper of my own cruising sailboat.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> V-e-r-r-r-y carefully?
> "Egyptian technology" - read "Wooden Boats",by Ruhlman, to see how the folk at Gannon & Benjamin boatshop on Martha's Vineyard use the simplest of tools to move the heaviest of boats.
> 
> "Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand, and I shall move the world."
> --Archimedes of Syracuse


yeah. I have been toing with some of those types of ideas. i will have to check out that book. thanks for the suggestion.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

krisscross said:


> Dude, I do it all the time, with a bunch of cinderblocks, two 10' long 8" thick locust logs with slabbed ends (to prevent rolling) and a car jack. Easy peasy. Set the blocks wide enough for the trailer to pass between them. I have 3 boats and 2 trailers which I swap between the boats as I need.


ok. that's a really good idea. you guys are great, on this site. some sailing blogs I have read posts from the people are buttholes to each other. you guys are really helpful and well meaning. glad I signed on!


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Regarding costs, I forget where you said you are, but if you're anywhere near Elk Neck, try Hance's Point Yacht Club. It's a DIY marina. I was there when I looked at boats 2 years ago, and I liked it. It is inexpensive, and in a nice location, and according to the guy selling his boat, it was what he would miss most about owning a boat (not that he didn't love his S2). From what I remember the prices were VERY reasonable. Hances Point Yacht Club - HPYC Main Page


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

SloopJonB said:


> If $350 presents a problem for you at any time, you can't afford a sailboat of any kind.
> 
> Trust me.
> 
> ...


only $350 to haul, block, and wash? that's a lot better than the price I was quoted! they wanted $650.

I know, everyone says how expensive boat ownership is, and I am sure it can be, but neither of my boats have ever cost me much. of course, not having a motor helps. the holiday came with an outboard, which I bartered for something else. I sail where I go and, if I really have no wind and just can't wait, I have oars or can scull. but, of course, you can't do that, so easily, with a 30 foot boat. no problem with a 20 foot boat, though.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

deniseO30 said:


> Jack I did send you a pm. We are on the Delaware River. and you can take her all the way home by water. You need the experience anyway;  find a friend that knows the way and has a 6-10 hp 2 stroke outboard, come see the boat, which Is is nearly free since the club only wants it's storage fee, far as I know. BUT, you keep saying you don't have anywhere to take the boat. Consider joining a YC. way cheaper then marinas in most cases.


cool. thanks. I will read your pm. I didn't think a yacht club would be cheaper. boy, this boat has started a learning process, whatever else happens with it.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

jimgo said:


> Regarding costs, I forget where you said you are, but if you're anywhere near Elk Neck, try Hance's Point Yacht Club. It's a DIY marina. I was there when I looked at boats 2 years ago, and I liked it. It is inexpensive, and in a nice location, and according to the guy selling his boat, it was what he would miss most about owning a boat (not that he didn't love his S2). From what I remember the prices were VERY reasonable. Hances Point Yacht Club - HPYC Main Page


thanks. I will check with them that's just a little farther up the bay from where the boat is.


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

captain jack said:


> I meant that I am thinking a boat nearly 30 feet would cost more to maintain and store. when calling marinas, they all asked the size of the boat before giving me a price. but, I do see what you mean. 24' to 27' is only 3'. lol.


One thing to consider is whether the marina rents their slips by the size of the slip itself or by the actual measurement of the boat.

My boat is listed as 27' but with the bowsprit, it is 30' and I also have a wind vane that brings it to 32/33'. I did measure it myself just to get an idea of total length.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

there is obviously a lot to learn about marinas. I am used to trailering. this is a new world, for me.

it's kind of like the idea of joining a yacht club. I am the least likely person you would see in a yacht club. think biker/pirate/Viking. lol.

I guess I've never been a social sailor. I mean, I talk to people, when i'm getting my boats set up or ready to leave. you'll exchange a few words as you sail by. i will lend a hand, while they are at the dock. I have saved a few people's butts. i actually sailed beside one family while i told them how to sail. that's a funny story. but I've never hung out with the sailing community.

so, except for people that know me from sailing at Marburg ( and their just people i am acquainted with, not really fiends i hang out with), i don't have any sailing friends. 

guess i need to work on that a little.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

he actually did send me the HIN : "Here is only number MDZ44432B075 model is listed as fiberglass. It was built by a local builder who only built 5-10 it is referred to as a Chesapeake in an article.

Hope that is what you need."

so, there it is. now to look it up. why did that take so bloody long?

so it's a 75. waiting for the site to open up to check the MIC ( key mouse lol).
MDZ is Maryland homemade boats
and i can't find anything with that info....


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

You think it is this boat known as a Chesapeake 20'?
CHESAPEAKE 20 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

captain jack said:


> there is obviously a lot to learn about marinas. I am used to trailering. this is a new world, for me.
> 
> it's kind of like the idea of joining a yacht club. I am the least likely person you would see in a yacht club. think biker/pirate/Viking. lol.
> 
> ...


YCs are not anything like you may be thinking. Unless you are into the Big ones like Annapolis YC. all the clubs on the river here are pretty down to earth. No ascots and caps LOL


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

CalebD said:


> You think it is this boat known as a Chesapeake 20'?
> CHESAPEAKE 20 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


no. already beat my head against the wall looking for Chesapeake boats on that site.

the chesapeake 20 is a centerboard day sailor ad too short. this boat is a 24' keel boat.
there is a Chesapeake 30 which is 24' LWL. it's a keel boat but it has a motor. this boat has an outboard bolted to the stern. the Chesapeake 30 is the same as the seidelmann 30. there is a seidelmann 25 but it's not related to the Chesapeake name. also, i looked that stuff up before i had a picture. now that i have seen the picture, it looks nothing like any of those boats.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The old Free, Sunken, Undocumented, Broken boat trick.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

deniseO30 said:


> YCs are not anything like you may be thinking. Unless you are into the Big ones like Annapolis YC. all the clubs on the river here are pretty down to earth. No ascots and caps LOL


that's good to know.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

deniseO30 said:


> Captain Jack! This is the boat that needs to go:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jacko - if I were in your flip-flops I'd take this boat in a heartbeat over that other piece of crap.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> The old Free, Sunken, Undocumented, Broken boat trick.
> 
> View attachment 16154


that is seriously funny. he fact that you posted that and i got it ages the both of us. lol. agent 99 was so hot. i had the biggest crush on her when i was a boy. lol


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Catwoman was hotter.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> Jacko - if I were in your flip-flops I'd take this boat in a heartbeat over that other piece of crap.


yes. a course i am already pursuing. but i don't wear flip flops. i usually sail barefoot...except in winter. then i wear cheap cloth deck shoes and two pairs of socks. once it's around freezing out, the wind chills the fiberglass, and your feet, way too much to go barefoot.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> Catwoman was hotter.


Mindy, from Mork and Mindy, was pretty hot, too. guess i go for the girl next door look.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> Jacko - if I were in your flip-flops I'd take this boat in a heartbeat over that other piece of crap.


by the way, can you ID said fine looking vessel? it's not a swan. according to sailboat data, swan never made a boat that 'small'. i'd love to look it up, on line, and obsess over it a bit. lol

by the way, love the avatar. great movie!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

captain jack said:


> that is seriously funny. he fact that you posted that and i got it ages the both of us. lol. agent 99 was so hot. i had the biggest crush on her when i was a boy. lol


Classic.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

captain jack said:


> by the way, can you ID said fine looking vessel? it's not a swan. according to sailboat data, swan never made a boat that 'small'. i'd love to look it up, on line, and obsess over it a bit. lol
> 
> by the way, love the avatar. great movie!


It's a Seafarer 31-1 - possibly the Yawl version..

SEAFARER 31-1 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Faster said:


> It's a Seafarer 31-1 - possibly the Yawl version..
> 
> SEAFARER 31-1 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


Looks like it but it's just not that long My boat is next to it and she's only a 30 I'll look for the number when I get a chance.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

captain jack said:


> thanks. I will check with them that's just a little farther up the bay from where the boat is.


I was thinking more for the boat Denise mentioned. It's easy to sail to Hance's point from Philly. Roughly a 2 day trip.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

jimgo said:


> I was thinking more for the boat Denise mentioned. It's easy to sail to Hance's point from Philly. Roughly a 2 day trip.


oh. i got you. since i am near back river/ middle river on the weekends, i was thinking that along a different line: the drive to the boat. i see your point, though. that's a good thought. i take it you've made the trip?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

deniseO30 said:


> Looks like it but it's just not that long My boat is next to it and she's only a 30 I'll look for the number when I get a chance.


it does look exactly like it, doesn't it? it doesn't look like the seafarer 29, which is 28.70 feet, though.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

I took my boat from Rock Hall to Barnegat Bay. I haven't done a Philly to Hance's Point trip, but Take Five, Ulladh, and others have made essentially the same trip. Basically, you'd be going from the Philly area down to Delaware City. Sleep there, then in the morning catch the current across the canal and out into the bay. I actually wonder if it couldn't be done in one day if you're able to time things well, but best to plan on 2.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

i am going to say i think it's a seafarer 26. they made them in 77. it's the right size and it looks right. the 31 has too many portholes.


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Dude, check out the "Swan", forget the other boat. Even if you could restore her, she'd never look as pretty as "Swan". Look at those lines. Bigger boats are more expensive to maintain/restore/dock - and some are more worthwhile that others, it is very difficult to tell from a photo - but for $100-$200, wow. 

What would be even better is to ask somebody with more big keelboat experience (perhaps from the club? sailors always like giving advice )to come and look at her with you; the cost to restore is generally pretty easy to estimate, the big ticket items (in a sound boat) are engine, sails and standing rigging. Most anything else is less expensive, but a lot of sweat equity. But things do add up...but if she is sound, she's probably worth it.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

deniseO30 said:


> Looks like it but it's just not that long My boat is next to it and she's only a 30 I'll look for the number when I get a chance.


Seafarer for sure.. the sheer stripe 'logo' is right for that.. The windows and underbody match the 31 drawing pretty exactly.. 
Don't think the underbody of the 26 is a match at all.. the keel is 'newer' in profile and doesn't have the prop shaft stubby at the aft end.

Denise.. you sure you don't have an ODay 32 ??


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

jimgo said:


> I took my boat from Rock Hall to Barnegat Bay. I haven't done a Philly to Hance's Point trip, but Take Five, Ulladh, and others have made essentially the same trip. Basically, you'd be going from the Philly area down to Delaware City. Sleep there, then in the morning catch the current across the canal and out into the bay. I actually wonder if it couldn't be done in one day if you're able to time things well, but best to plan on 2.


sounds like bringing her back is going to be a 4 person job. one to drive me up. one to accompany that person back. it's a long drive. i can't ask a friend to do it alone. lol. and one who either knows powerboats ( motor experience ) or knows the way, to go with me. i do know someone that does powerboats and he is a very good friend....

but i'm getting ahead of myself. i need to contact that marina at Hance's point, and go see the boat before i start planning bringing her back. of course, thinking ahead never hurt.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Can you take the train to 30th street (Philly), then a cab? Heck, I think the Market-Frankfurt line gets you kind of close, so a cab from one of those stops might work, too. Overnight on the boat, sail it home the next day. Another option is a U-Haul. Rent the smallest truck they'll let you take one way. Still another option is to go with Enterprise or Budget. Both do one-way rentals, but they typically only do pick-up and drop-off at airports for those. Still worth looking into; Denise's club isn't THAT far from the airport.

Can you tell I went through similar preparations not that long ago? 

Can you tell I think that if you're going to go down one of these paths, the Philly boat is the better path to go down?


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Yes, the VRT (vehicle retrieval trip) is a PITA. 
Public transportation & cabs are a good idea for executing such a plan.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

captain jack said:


> Mindy, from Mork and Mindy, was pretty hot, too. guess i go for the girl next door look.


The "Swan" looks like a winner - good luck!

P.S.
Mary Anne


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I agree, it is a Seafarer 31. This one has been klicking around the yard for almost 5 years.
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...oker&&hosturl=bridgeyachts&&ywo=bridgeyachts&


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

jimgo said:


> Can you take the train to 30th street (Philly), then a cab? Heck, I think the Market-Frankfurt line gets you kind of close, so a cab from one of those stops might work, too. Overnight on the boat, sail it home the next day. Another option is a U-Haul. Rent the smallest truck they'll let you take one way. Still another option is to go with Enterprise or Budget. Both do one-way rentals, but they typically only do pick-up and drop-off at airports for those. Still worth looking into; Denise's club isn't THAT far from the airport.
> 
> Can you tell I went through similar preparations not that long ago?
> 
> Can you tell I think that if you're going to go down one of these paths, the Philly boat is the better path to go down?


car rental! why didn't i think of that? that's perfect. thanks dude.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> The "Swan" looks like a winner - good luck!
> 
> P.S.
> Mary Anne


it does. this is an unexpected direction in life caused by an unexpected direction in life. lol. it's a fine looking vessel and reading about them, they are well built.


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

This isn't a personal finance discussion board but Capt. Jack needs to get his act together before he thinks about acquiring a 24' boat. Unless you make your living on the water, boats are luxuries. You need to take care of basics before you spend on luxuries. One of those basics is a rainy day reserve. He stated that he doesn't have any reserve funds. It's absolutely reckless to start thinking about buying a boat until you have six months living expenses sitting in the bank.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

This boat, just doesn't seem to be 31ft Anyway, I'm not in Philly I'm in Bristol 15 miles north. The train from Philly is the Septa R-7 line, it comes right here a few blocks from my house. 
This is what I know so far.

It's been about 3 years in the club. I think it was sitting in someone's yard for 20, (don't know) It's been on a club mooring 3 seasons.. he's never sailed it. The only time I saw the boat move on it's own was for launching and end of season pull out. It's gas, not an A4, something about the carb leaking gas. A very young man owns it, but is not a member of the club anymore so... the boat...HAS TO GO  I've never seen inside... The outboard is high and I think the whole propulsion approach needs to be re-thunk 

People have towed boats down river to the Chessy but that's really slow going. 
I've done the trip a few times.. don't even need a chart lol Chesapeake city is my fav stop,free too!

View from above;


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Hudsonian said:


> This isn't a personal finance discussion board but Capt. Jack needs to get his act together before he thinks about acquiring a 24' boat. Unless you make your living on the water, boats are luxuries. You need to take care of basics before you spend on luxuries. One of those basics is a rainy day reserve. He stated that he doesn't have any reserve funds. It's absolutely reckless to start thinking about buying a boat until you have six months living expenses sitting in the bank.


+1.

Or you can just pull money out of your butt like I do.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Hudsonian said:


> This isn't a personal finance discussion board but Capt. Jack needs to get his act together before he thinks about acquiring a 24' boat. Unless you make your living on the water, boats are luxuries.  You need to take care of basics before you spend on luxuries. One of those basics is a rainy day reserve. He stated that he doesn't have any reserve funds. It's absolutely reckless to start thinking about buying a boat until you have six months living expenses sitting in the bank.


they say you are always supposed to have savings and you should be able to pay a month's rent with one check and all that other good advice that you have to make real money to follow. the largest majority of people, and i am one of those, live their lives without being able to follow such good advice. they have no choice but live recklessly. honestly, if only people that were well prepared and financially stable had kids, which is a huge money drain, the human race would dwindle to become an endangered species. you just find a way, when you have to. you have to take risks, in life, if you are to live it. you may not have money to spend but once you have a responsibility, you find a way to fulfill it.

not that i am not going to start getting myself financially set up for this. there is a difference between an expense you know is coming, ahead of time, and one that hits you all of a sudden.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

deniseO30 said:


> This boat, just doesn't seem to be 31ft Anyway, I'm not in Philly I'm in Bristol 15 miles north. The train from Philly is the Septa R-7 line, it comes right here a few blocks from my house.
> This is what I know so far.
> 
> It's been about 3 years in the club. I think it was sitting in someone's yard for 20, (don't know) It's been on a club mooring 3 seasons.. he's never sailed it. The only time I saw the boat move on it's own was for launching and end of season pull out. It's gas, not an A4, something about the carb leaking gas. A very young man owns it, but is not a member of the club anymore so... the boat...HAS TO GO  I've never seen inside... The outboard is high and I think the whole propulsion approach needs to be re-thunk
> ...


so, i have a two questions. it does have sails, right? figure i'd better ask that. sails that big would not be cheap.

hard to believe you'd have a nice boat, like that, and never sail it. i keep my dinghy in the back of my truck so i can sail any time i am near water, and have a spare hour or two. i can't imagine letting such a beautiful boat just sit. even if you are short of money, wind is free.

second question. you say he uses the outboard because of a carb leak on the inboard? if so, that's no biggie. i can rebuild a carburetor in my sleep. that would be good because it would mean i'd only have to use an outboard to get it home. not that i intend to use an engine anymore than i actually have to.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

captain jack said:


> ......... there is a difference between an expense you know is coming, ahead of time, and one that hits you all of a sudden.





captain jack said:


> so, i have a two questions. it does have sails, right? figure i'd better ask that. sails that big would not be cheap. ........


Unfortunately, boats are often about expenses you didn't see coming. Every year I have a list a full page long of things I want to fix or improve. I literally get to less than half, as the unexpected interferes. Sails do blow out.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

The Dream is alive.

“To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise, you are doomed to a routine traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen who play with their boats at sea… ‘cruising’ it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is all about.” -Sterling Hayden


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Something doesn't seem right. That Seafarer (Swan) looks too good to be true. $100-200 purchase price? Outwardly, as far as one can see that boat looks to be in pretty good shape. It might be a good idea to verify the price and that you can get a good clear title to that boat. Talk with the owner. Talk with someone with experience in that size boat and get them to look at it with you. They'll have a better feel for what's needed, if anything, and what it realistically will cost. Why hasn't someone already bought it? 

Jack, make sure that you look at your situation financially to make sure that you can handle it. Haulout, bottom paint, wax hull for my 32 foot boat runs about $1,600 every two years. Insurance is $580 a year. Slip fees run $2,000 to $4,000+ depending on where you are. To get insurance may require a survey. Surveys run $3-400?. If the survey finds problems (and they will on a boat of that age), they'll have to be fixed before insurance company will cover it....i.e. more expense. Can you even get insurance? Even liability insurance?...some marinas require it. What needs to be spent on fixing up to a usable condition? Once you buy it, it's yours. If you can't handle the associated bills for any reason, you are going to accumulate an outstanding debt and there's a good chance that someone is going to take you to court and get a judgment against you. Then, until you take care of that, you'll have trouble getting financing on anything down the road until it's cleared up. Meanwhile, you've got two boats to deal with on top of everything else that life throws in your direction. 

I know you want a bigger boat, and this one is surely tempting. But you already have a boat that you can't deal with. And no financial reserve. Even $350 is problematic at the moment.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> The Dream is alive.
> 
> "To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise, you are doomed to a routine traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen who play with their boats at sea&#8230; 'cruising' it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is all about." -Sterling Hayden


awesome quote!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

NCC320 said:


> Something doesn't seem right. That Seafarer (Swan) looks too good to be true. $100-200 purchase price? Outwardly, as far as one can see that boat looks to be in pretty good shape. It might be a good idea to verify the price and that you can get a good clear title to that boat. Talk with the owner. Talk with someone with experience in that size boat and get them to look at it with you. They'll have a better feel for what's needed, if anything, and what it realistically will cost. Why hasn't someone already bought it?
> 
> Jack, make sure that you look at your situation financially to make sure that you can handle it. Haulout, bottom paint, wax hull for my 32 foot boat runs about $1,600 every two years. Insurance is $580 a year. Slip fees run $2,000 to $4,000+ depending on where you are. To get insurance may require a survey. Surveys run $3-400?. If the survey finds problems (and they will on a boat of that age), they'll have to be fixed before insurance company will cover it....i.e. more expense. Can you even get insurance? Even liability insurance?...some marinas require it. What needs to be spent on fixing up to a usable condition? Once you buy it, it's yours. If you can't handle the associated bills for any reason, you are going to accumulate an outstanding debt and there's a good chance that someone is going to take you to court and get a judgment against you. Then, until you take care of that, you'll have trouble getting financing on anything down the road until it's cleared up. Meanwhile, you've got two boats to deal with on top of everything else that life throws in your direction.
> 
> I know you want a bigger boat, and this one is surely tempting. But you already have a boat that you can't deal with. And no financial reserve. Even $350 is problematic at the moment.


NCC you need to read the whole thread. 
The boat is not in good shape imo. 
The owner and the club have parted ways, owner is gone, boat remains. * I don't know what kind of deal Jack can get* but the there *IS NOT ANY Deception going on*. The boat has to go. Club is owned money. that is all I know at this time! 

Jack and I are communicating by pm and phone. If jack can afford boat = his business, If jack can save the boat and find a home for it. = his biz again. Deal he strikes with owner or club = his business.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

captain jack said:


> so, i have a two questions. it does have sails, right? figure i'd better ask that. sails that big would not be cheap.
> 
> hard to believe you'd have a nice boat, like that, and never sail it. i keep my dinghy in the back of my truck so i can sail any time i am near water, and have a spare hour or two. i can't imagine letting such a beautiful boat just sit. even if you are short of money, wind is free.
> 
> second question. you say he uses the outboard because of a carb leak on the inboard? if so, that's no biggie. i can rebuild a carburetor in my sleep. that would be good because it would mean i'd only have to use an outboard to get it home. not that i intend to use an engine anymore than i actually have to.


What I know I've already told. I don't know about the sails, the inboard ran and something about leaking carb, I don't know about the outboard they rigged up. I've never been on the boat or looked inside. when I get you connected with the right person it's up you, the club, and the owner. We had a house boat sitting for over 10 years someone finally got it and took it away. YCs are always getting stuck with boats. Ours is typical that way.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

NCC320 said:


> Something doesn't seem right. That Seafarer (Swan) looks too good to be true. $100-200 purchase price? Outwardly, as far as one can see that boat looks to be in pretty good shape. It might be a good idea to verify the price and that you can get a good clear title to that boat. Talk with the owner. Talk with someone with experience in that size boat and get them to look at it with you. They'll have a better feel for what's needed, if anything, and what it realistically will cost. Why hasn't someone already bought it?
> 
> Jack, make sure that you look at your situation financially to make sure that you can handle it. Haulout, bottom paint, wax hull for my 32 foot boat runs about $1,600 every two years. Insurance is $580 a year. Slip fees run $2,000 to $4,000+ depending on where you are. To get insurance may require a survey. Surveys run $3-400?. If the survey finds problems (and they will on a boat of that age), they'll have to be fixed before insurance company will cover it....i.e. more expense. Can you even get insurance? Even liability insurance?...some marinas require it. What needs to be spent on fixing up to a usable condition? Once you buy it, it's yours. If you can't handle the associated bills for any reason, you are going to accumulate an outstanding debt and there's a good chance that someone is going to take you to court and get a judgment against you. Then, until you take care of that, you'll have trouble getting financing on anything down the road until it's cleared up. Meanwhile, you've got two boats to deal with on top of everything else that life throws in your direction.
> 
> I know you want a bigger boat, and this one is surely tempting. But you already have a boat that you can't deal with. And no financial reserve. Even $350 is problematic at the moment.


well, all those a very good points. Denise seems to be known, here, which gives me comfort. I guess, "if they are willing to sell it for $100 or $200 why isn't it sold?", is a good question. perhaps it's timing. but I will look it over thoroughly.

the price break down is nice to have. I will write it down so I have an idea of costs. thanks. I am aware that there are costs. having it surveyed hadn't been on my list but I will have to check into it, in case I have to have it surveyed for insurance costs. if I can swing the money, a survey couldn't hurt, for my peace of mind, either.

it's not that I can't handle the trailer repair on my holiday. I got another good idea how to get the boat off the trailer, in this thread, but I've had a few good ideas as to how to do it. but, I've been busy working on stuff for everyone else, this year. I haven't gotten any of my stuff done. I have been letting my things slide. but it wasn't pressing. I've been sailing once or twice a week, on the weekends when I am not near home and actually have free time. it's my keep me sane time. this deal with the free boat and now the seafarer has made me really want to sail a Seafarer boat, again, if for no other reason than that I can take my girlfriend sailing. so, i'm going to pull the boat off the trailer and fix the trailer in the next few weeks. the sooner the better.

$350, without time to accrue it, is a problem. but it's always a problem. different levels of society. right now, the construction field sucks, thanks to illegals taking up jobs and the terrible state of the economy, but, at it's height, a good paying construction job would range in the low to mid $20/hr range, at least around here.

and I really don't know many guys, that can just drop $350, without notice, and not have it be difficult. if it's really important, like your car needs a pricey part so it will keep getting you to work, you scrape it together.

if I had to, for a really important purpose, I could pull the money together, one way or the other. it's been a rough year. my girlfriend has been having one crisis after another, many with her car which is of an age where things start needing replaced, so I have been scraping together funds I didn't have, all year, to help her. my time is free but car parts cost and some of the emergencies were not automotive. anyway, at this stage, that $350 is a real trial and I can't justify it. it's not my boat that suddenly needs something and, although a free boat may be a great opportunity ( or not lol )and even something I want, I don't NEED another boat. I have two. so, I can't justify a mad scramble to pool my resources or talk to friends. I have one or two good friends that act as a support team, together, we help each other out like family. if I had a real need, I could get the money together. but the free boat doesn't qualify as a real need.

for instance, I made the sail for my dinghy 17 years ago. it's still good, but i'm not a sail maker. I am sure a real sail maker would do it better ( which has been shown to be true ) so, this spring, I contacted duckworks magazine to see about having a sail made. I drew a diagram of the sail I made, with important notes, and had them make it. superb work, if may say so. I had to come up with the $250 before they could start. and I did. I juggled a few bills around and the money was there. it's timing, though. I didn't NEED the new sail, although it's been great.

however, over the last few weeks, I have spent at least $300 on parts for her car. those were emergency expenses. plus my car insurance just renewed. I had to buy new boots ( mine were in really bad shape ). and, right now, I don't have the extra room to juggle any money around. and the free boat wasn't necessary enough for me to ask one of my good friends for help.

I guess, I made myself sound more destitute than I am. being an average, blue collar working stiff, sometimes extra money is not hard to raise and sometimes it is. it's a matter of timing and when it rains, it pours.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Denise,

I didn't mean to imply that there was any deception. Just the opposite. Jack started with wanting to save another boat that had been underwater. You knew of something that might fit that was far, far better, even if it still needs lots of work. In my view, you have been especially helpful to him in his quest and straight forward in telling him what you know. And it is Jack's business if he wants to proceed.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

captain jack said:


> when I first found out about this boat, I didn't know what it was. the guy only told me it was a keel boat and "24' Chesapeake".


This boat is on eBay now, and it looks like an absolute POS. You could easily find a better free boat.


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## Smier (Nov 14, 2012)

jameswilson29 said:


> This boat is on eBay now, and it looks like an absolute POS. You could easily find a better free boat.


The plot thickens!!!! Off to eBay I go...

Edit: Its on eBay, but has already been removed for unspecified reasons...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Catwoman was hotter.


Mrs Peel was the hottest of all.


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## Smier (Nov 14, 2012)

SloopJonB said:


> Mrs Peel was the hottest of all.


I hope we're talking the original Mrs. Peel?


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

I see why it was pulled. The seller gave it to BoatAngel, along with "updated" pictures:
1973 Chesapeake 24'11" Used Sailboat for Sale Maryland | eBay


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I'd say those were old pics pre-sinking.. and scary enough at that point!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SloopJonB said:


> Mrs Peel was the hottest of all.






























I'd say any of them are rather seaworthy...ahm, WERE seaworthy. Now they're just free boats.


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## Smier (Nov 14, 2012)

It's back up on evilbay! What's up with the deck? Does it have teak decking in spots, or did they try an simulate a wooden deck in fiberglass? My guess is the picture are from before it sank also... Can you tell my boats are put away for the season?


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

Or it sank and then it was powerwashed to make it more presentable - either way (and I rarely say this) don't walk - run from that boat. Looking at it I doubt if there would even be much to salvage.


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Ron, I agree, I think that was pre-sinking. Notice that the hatch is in place.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I just noticed the ebay ad has a link for "more pictures." My throat starts to burn just looking at them. And based on the fact that the hatch is magically restored, I'd say these pics were probably BEFORE the boat (apparently) sunk:


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I always loved the English gentleman John Steed wooooo..

ANYWAY! Boat is sold, according to the owner, and yes it is a Seafarer 31... 500 bucks it went for.... but it is still sitting at the club So... we will see...


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

deniseO30 said:


> What I know I've already told. I don't know about the sails, the inboard ran and something about leaking carb, I don't know about the outboard they rigged up. I've never been on the boat or looked inside. when I get you connected with the right person it's up you, the club, and the owner. We had a house boat sitting for over 10 years someone finally got it and took it away. YCs are always getting stuck with boats. Ours is typical that way.


really? hmmmm maybe I should check around with local yacht clubs....


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Faster said:


> I'd say those were old pics pre-sinking.. and scary enough at that point!


yeah. the boat looks much worse, now. it still had the hatches in those pictures. I suppose this guy really screwed it up worse than it was. he did find the title, by the way.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> I'd say any of them are rather seaworthy...ahm, WERE seaworthy. Now they're just free boats.


:laugher


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

hmmm there is a 27' hunter, on eay, in edgewood, md. that's just up the street from back river. I wonder, if he is going to give it to me...I am still looking at it Saturday....how is it being sold on ebay?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

that's not the boat, unless he moved it. piney point is far down the bay from Essex. same type of boat, though. it's good to see what it's supposed to look like. the boat on ebay also doesn't have an outboard on it. but it is an odd coincidence.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

captain jack said:


> really? hmmmm maybe I should check around with local yacht clubs....


there is a racing breed Pearson 30, with an A4 Not sure he's ready to sell, an Endeavor 32 for sale. A Pearson 26, not sure it's for sale. I'll ask if any of those interest you but they are not "nearly free" that I know of.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

I am still going to see the boat, but i'm going to see if he will let me scrap it out before he cuts it up. it would save him money on disposal. landfills charge by the pound. i'd like the rails, winches, and other hardware. sails, too, if he is willing...and the sail cover. but, looking at the boat on ebay, I am not impressed. I am sure it's really trashed inside and the boat just wasn't much to write home about, when new.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

deniseO30 said:


> there is a racing breed Pearson 30, with an A4 Not sure he's ready to sell, an Endeavor 32 for sale. A Pearson 26, not sure it's for sale. I'll ask if any of those interest you but they are not "nearly free" that I know of.


thanks for the thought. ask what they want, I imagine. I wasn't in the market; just thinking about it. but a free boat got it rolling. however, even though I now realize that I really do want to take that step, I need to save money unless I find another really good deal, like your guy's seafarer.

I like that endeavor!


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Smier said:


> I hope we're talking the original Mrs. Peel?


I was thinking about Diana Rigg in her leather cat suit. 

Was Honour Blackman's character Mrs Peel as well?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Hudsonian said:


> This isn't a personal finance discussion board but .


But you are gonna treat it like one.
I'm occasionally broke.
I always sail.
I find a way to sail in spite of the fact that I am occasionally broke.
Yep, I get some envelopes in the mail, occasionally, marked "final notice". They, eventually, get paid. 
I find a way to sail.
I quit smoking. the money i used to spend on tobacco exceeded my annual sailing cost- slip fees, maintenance, etc.,

So, I could afford to sail even though the rest of my financial and personal life was chaos...

...Because sailing is the only thing that permitted me to ENDURE the rest of my chaotic life.

So respectfully, hudsonian, i don't fell that having one's financial house in order is a prerequisite for becoming a sailboat owner.

In fact being fiscally responsible is an argument AGAINST sailboat ownership.

FFS, is the dream-killing done here?

Are we all good with trying to make the illogical logical?

Can we now get past the tired, and currently largely untrue, cliches about free boats?

captain jack, here's some advice from a broke-ass mofo who has been sailing, more or less successfully, for years on an annual budget that would not buy a new mainsail on a Catalina 400.

Grab the most complete free boat you can find and sail it. Make sure the engine runs, it doesn't smell bad, the chainplates aren't ready to pull right out of the hull, and the bilge isn't filling faster than it can be pumped out.

Everything else is just details.

Cripes, one thread bemoans the lack of new cruisers, another thread remarks on the smaller numbers of sailors every year...
...and here we have 15 pages of reasons why someone shouldn't take on a free sailboat.

Y'know, in 2005, when the boat market was on the rise because anyone with a pulse could buy a boat using the overinflated unsupported equity in their overleveraged McMansion, sure, a "free boat' was a suckers' game. Today, not so much.

In fact, not so very much, at all.

With used boat prices cut by 50% or more since 2008, with boats more than 20 years old being increasingly more difficult to finance, with the pool of buyers smaller than the pool of sellers and getting smaller every year, wiht the number of boat owners who face more money than month not decreasing, there are a lot of very sailable "free" boats that are worth much more than salvage value making them not free at all.

captain jack, let me hit it again: find the best one you can find, and get sailing. if it falls apart under you, lick your wounds, learn form the experience, and find another, better one, using the hard won experience you have gained.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

BLJones,  I owe you a beer for that one


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Jonesy, I agree with just about everything you said, and I'm usually a big advocate of buying cheap boats (or taking free ones). I've done it 3 times. But THIS boat was not the "best free boat" he could have found. That was the point that many of us were trying to make. If you read most of the posts, most of us were pushing him to the boat Denise had identified. It was still FAR from perfect, but it would have met most of your other criteria. If he could have gotten that boat for a few hundred bucks, even if it only lasted him 2-3 years, I'd have been very happy for him. But did you SEE the pictures of the boat that started the thread, and that was the subject of most of the nay-saying?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

If someone has the vision, drive and attention span to restore a boat that was sunk, abandoned damaged etc. Just about any boat can be restored to it's original beauty. It's done all the time with wooden boats. The problem is not the boat's condition so much as the person taking on the project. The world is full of "project" boats. big, little, power, paddle row, speed, super yachts to rowboats. The love quickly ebs and is replaced with sighs.. then the tarp goes over the "thing" to make it "out of sight out of mind" Suddenly.. years went by!


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

jimgo, IF the first boat is the best boat he can find, so be it. BUT he has been offered a couple of choices since then, so there are lots of "BEST free boat" contenders.
And, make no mistake, I am advocating finding the BEST free boat, not just ANY free boat.
That is not that same as muttering that "no free boat is free." Hell, we all know that. but that doesn't mean a free boat is unworthy of consideration because it is free.
Dirt is dirt, and a dirty boat is often a low-buck sailor's gift. 

When my son was a crib-sleeping infant, he discovered that he could take off his full Huggie and paint his crib with it. It stank. It wasn't pretty. But, you know something, it washed off, with no permanent harm to the crib...
and he outgrew the crib in a couple of years anyway.
30-40year old fiberglass sailboats are like that.
They can be ugly and stinky and underequipped and yadda yadda yadda, BUT...
all of that is fixable, and while it may not create the fastest, bestest sailing, highest pointing, most agile boat in the fleet...
it gets a poor bastage on the water, and grinning. the rest is just details.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> When my son was a crib-sleeping infant, he discovered that he could take off his full Huggie and paint his crib with it. It stank. It wasn't pretty. But, you know something, it washed off, with no permanent harm to the crib...


Okay - this metaphor just went completely off the rails.

Unless you're riffing on the "this boat is a POS" theme - I'm trying to focus on my curry here and would appreciate a little mental space.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

bljones said:


> But you are gonna treat it like one.
> I'm occasionally broke.
> I always sail.
> I find a way to sail in spite of the fact that I am occasionally broke.
> ...


sounds like you are in my financial class.  thanks. it's good to hear both sides of the argument. you all are the angel on the shoulder of restraint and the devil on the shoulder or passion. I'm much more the devil, myself. lol.

I look at the boat tomorrow. if it looks seaworthy and it's not a total wreck inside ( to the point of being disgusting ) I will take it and do everything I can to find a place to keep it. if it's a lost cause, I will try to get him to let me take what I can use from it.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

you know, I have looked at the picture of that boat a thousand times over. it's dirty as hell, but the mast is clean as can be and it's got a nice sail cover.. he told me it's been on the water for 4 months. that rain did get inside and he had to pump it out. he said it got that muddy in low tide. not sure what that means, even, his emails come from his phone and he is a terrible pone typer. lol. I took it to mean it may have tilted over when the water went too low for the keel. I don't know. i'm going to try to get clarity, tomorrow.

if he's telling the truth, it might not be totally trashed. I know it looks worse than that pic of the boat that was submerged for a month or something, in a previous post, but this boat is on the Chesapeake. I don't know the quality of the river that other boat sank in, but the Chesapeake is really dirty. no lie. I love it, but it's filthy. it's water is filthy. and there is a lot of trash on it. if he's telling the truth, well, I can see how falling over in the Chesapeake would make a boat look that bad.

on the other hand, he could be lying. he could have fund it sunk and raised it, hoping to fix it, given up and now his aunt says the boat has to go because he never worked on it. to be honest, when he told me he didn't have the title, Thursday, I was sure it proved he was lying. if he got it from a bank auction, he'd have the title. if he raised a sunken, abandoned boat, he wouldn't have the title.

when he told me, today, he found the title, it gave his story more plausibility. tomorrow will tell all.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Okay - this metaphor just went completely off the rails.
> 
> Unless you're riffing on the "this boat is a POS" theme - I'm trying to focus on my curry here and would appreciate a little mental space.


hmmm...okay, maybe I have to dumb it down for the Texan, since he "liked" my initial salvo, but apparently dislikes my expansion on the original thesis.
The dirty, unattractive boat that is the initial subject of this post is like a skidmarked crib- it washes off.

A dirty, ugly, free boat is not the same as a POS boat. For example, a pristine, squeaky clean Stevenson Weekender is still a POS. it didn't sail better or become a better equipped boat by virtue of being clean.

Your failure to understand that simple point demonstrates that you may have very little mental space.

enjoy your curry.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

captain jack said:


> you know, I have looked at the picture of that boat a thousand times over. it's dirty as hell, but the mast is clean as can be and it's got a nice sail cover.. he told me it's been on the water for 4 months. that rain did get inside and he had to pump it out. he said it got that muddy in low tide. not sure what that means...


It probably means that it sat on the bottom in water that was about 4' deep at low tide. When the tide came in, the boat would flood and get coated with dirty water. When the tide went out, the deck and top of the hull would be exposed, causing the dirty water to dry and cake on the boat. Through all of this the mast would stay clean if the boat was upright.

That other boat that sunk was in the Delaware River, which isn't exactly pristine. However, it did have ~2 knot tidal currents which would prevent the dirt from caking on. Chesapeake and tributaries generally have much less tidal current.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

as far as a motor goes, i'm not sure I really need one. I never used a motor on my 20' sloop. I know how to sail to and from a dock. this boat's only 24 feet long. probably not more than 22' on the water line. it's not much bigger than the holiday. if the wind dies, I should be able to scull it. heck, I've rowed the holiday. given the right oars, I don't see why this boat couldn't be rowed in an emergency. although, since I intend to sail the bay, I may see about an electric motor, in case of emergency. of course, that's assuming it's not a total train wreck and I do take it. I had pretty much decided I wouldn't but I wouldn't judge a person by the way they look, i'd give them a chance to show me the cut of their jib, first. same with this boat.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

bljones said:


> hmmm...okay, maybe I have to dumb it down for the Texan, since he "liked" my initial salvo, but apparently dislikes my expansion on the original thesis.
> The dirty, unattractive boat that is the initial subject of this post is like a skidmarked crib- it washes off.
> 
> A dirty, ugly, free boat is not the same as a POS boat. For example, a pristine, squeaky clean Stevenson Weekender is still a POS. it didn't sail better or become a better equipped boat by virtue of being clean.
> ...


have you sailed a weekender?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> It probably means that it sat on the bottom in water that was about 4' deep at low tide. When the tide came in, the boat would flood and get coated with dirty water. When the tide went out, the deck and top of the hull would be exposed, causing the dirty water to dry and cake on the boat. Through all of this the mast would stay clean if the boat was upright.
> 
> That other boat that sunk was in the Delaware River, which isn't exactly pristine. However, it did have ~2 knot tidal currents which would prevent the dirt from caking on. Chesapeake and tributaries generally have much less tidal current.


hey. thanks for the clarity. that makes sense. if that's the case, do you think there is a chance the boat isn't total crap?


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

captain jack said:


> have you sailed a weekender?


You don't have to ride a moped to know it ain't a Electra Glide.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

having seen a similar boat, albeit a different year, on ebay, even knowing the exact length and model, I still can't find anything on line about these boats. he said something about there being an article about them, but I don't know where. does anyone know of a place besides sailboatdata to search? a general search, on the web, yields nothing but that ebay listing.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

bljones said:


> You don't have to ride a moped to know it ain't a Electra Glide.


so that's just an assumption? I saw one sailing on youtube and looked them up. that and the vacationer, it's bigger cousin. I thought some of them looked really nice and was wondering how they sailed. I do think their keel is odd, however, because it is deeper at the bow and tapers towards the stern. kind of opposite the usual long keel design.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

by the way, what year electraglide? if it's an AMFer from the bad old days, you'd be better off with the moped. more reliable and leaks less oil.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> hmmm...okay, maybe I have to dumb it down for the Texan, since he "liked" my initial salvo, but apparently dislikes my expansion on the original thesis.
> The dirty, unattractive boat that is the initial subject of this post is like a skidmarked crib- it washes off.
> 
> A dirty, ugly, free boat is not the same as a POS boat. For example, a pristine, squeaky clean Stevenson Weekender is still a POS. it didn't sail better or become a better equipped boat by virtue of being clean.
> ...


Whew - thank you. I get it now.

The whole "wiping your dirty diaper all over your crib" thing was just way too "intellectual" for us Texans. So that's how it is up there. Nice.

[PSST - never explain a joke - no matter how lame it is. Even us Texans know that.]


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Whew - thank you. I get it now.
> 
> [PSST - never explain a joke - no matter how lame it is. Even us Texans know that.]


If you Texans don't admit you don't get the joke, then everyone else doesn't have to explain the joke. alas, you do, so we have to.
This explains the success of both barbecue and chili in Texas- it is low and slow. you can handle nothing more, apparently.

which explains your befuddlement whilst consuming curry.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

captain jack said:


> so that's just an assumption? I saw one sailing on youtube and looked them up. that and the vacationer, it's bigger cousin. I thought some of them looked really nice and was wondering how they sailed. I do think their keel is odd, however, because it is deeper at the bow and tapers towards the stern. kind of opposite the usual long keel design.


"kind of opposite" is the operative phrase. in any event, it is smaller than your current boat, so a step backward.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

yeah. they also have a bigger version, the vacationer, and a skilled person could scale up the plans to go bigger. but I was just curious. I won't deny having thought along those lines but I don't have time to completely build a boat, right now. if I were to do one, i'd scale it up. it'd take more material of course. but I think you could build one that was a pretty nice cruiser, had you the time. I think i'd have to look at the keel design. it's balanced with the sail plan, obviously, but I think i'd want a more traditional keel profile and just refigure the sails to get the right balance. figuring that stuff out isn't beyond my means. but there is the time issue. 

but, who knows. someday.....they are a pretty little boat. reminds me of a skipjack or a bugeye. very traditional looks. I like that. I have a 9' dinghy with a long shallow keel and a sprit sail in the back of my truck. i'm an old fashioned kind of guy. 

heck, you could even do it as a schooner. kind of a vacationer/Bolger light schooner hybred.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

A stevenson design is like a playboy centerfold as viewed by a virgin- great packaging... but the subject has no experience with which to compare.

Stevensons are great sailboats, in the opinion of those who have never sailed.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

oh. so they don't have good sailing qualities? the construction method is much like the instant boats. I like the traditional look, but I think if I built a boat, I would lift the lines from my dinghy and use them as the basis of a much larger boat. although I have concerted it to long keel, and made a sprit sail for it, it is a modern performance hull and has great sailing qualities. better with the shallow keel. enlarged to, say, 25 feet, and add enough freeboard to give decent head room inside, it would work out nicely. 

but I digress. today is the moment of truth and I should go to sleep. I have to be there in 6 hours.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

bljones said:


> .......here's some advice from a broke-ass mofo who has been sailing, more or less successfully, for years on an annual budget that would not buy a new mainsail on a Catalina 400.


A new mainsail on a C400 would be a couple thousand or more? The OP is needing time to accumulate $350.



> Grab the most complete free boat you can find and sail it. Make sure the engine runs, it doesn't smell bad, the chainplates aren't ready to pull right out of the hull, and the bilge isn't filling faster than it can be pumped out.


... the sails aren't going to blow out, the rudder is solid and secure, the drive train is true, the prop isn't de-zinced, the deck isn't too wet, the keel bolts or pivot are not rotten, the standing rigging isn't corroded or frayed, the running rigging isn't too worn, etc.

I get your point and have no objection to it. However, there are many things that can throw you a serious curve and then you wish you had spent what money you have on something else.

I would seriously think the soiled crib in your story is a better find by far than the boat in the OP.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> I just noticed the ebay ad has a link for "more pictures." My throat starts to burn just looking at them. And based on the fact that the hatch is magically restored, I'd say these pics were probably BEFORE the boat (apparently) sunk:
> 
> [_images removed._......]


TF.... thanks for posting , but is there any chance you could resize these, they're blowing my screen out? Many thanks.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bljones said:


> If you Texans don't admit you don't get the joke, then everyone else doesn't have to explain the joke. alas, you do, so we have to.
> This explains the success of both barbecue and chili in Texas- it is low and slow. you can handle nothing more, apparently.
> 
> which explains your befuddlement whilst consuming curry.


Okay.

Back to the original subject...










...of your metaphor gone wrong.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

I went to see the boat.

first, the guy isn't a con man, a moron, or a jerk as I suspected from our communication. he's a nice guy just trying to keep peace in the family. he was very friendly and helpful. if I can't take the boat, I am welcome to strip it of stuff I want. I am welcome to do that or take the boat at my convenience, without him there, and just let him know I am. then, if I take it, he will meet me with the title.

the boat is in very shallow water. it was low tide when I saw it and the bottom was in mud. the tiller was hard to turn, because of it being in mud, and we tried to pull the boat around to the lift, so I could see the entire hull ( he was genuinely helpful ) but it was like dragging a car, it was so mired in the mud. we only were able to pull it so far before giving up. and there was a cloud of mud in the water after we moved it. so, that's why it flooded at low tide. something I, personally, think happened more than once...or maybe it stayed flooded for a few days before he pumped it. 

the complete story on the boat is that his aunt's daughter had been on sailboats, twice, while on vacation. she decided she wanted to sail and she worked at the bank where the boat was auctioned. she bought it for $1600 a year ago. she had it at another relative's house until 4 or 5 moths ago, when they told he it had to go. this aunt decided enough was enough because they never did anything at all to the boat.

she bought them 'new' sails for the boat. they obviously were used because I know new Dacron when I see it and that's not it.

now, the boat:

it has about an inch of water in it, from the recent rains. 

the barnacles are worse than i'd hoped. Denise called that right. the boat must have floated heavy with water for a little bit before he pumped it. they are pretty heavy up til about 6" from the deck. there are some barnacles in the cockpit, as well. that's the worst part of the boat.

the deck is rock solid, with no cracks of gel blisters, except a small soft spot on the starboard cabin roof/deck. it is reachable from the inside and it's not a big deal. good old boat had an excellent article on how to repair such a thing. 

the V-berth shelf has a few small gel blisters, not a hard repair, but is rock solid. no other fiberglass issues are visible. there are no old holes, from moved hardware, that might cause fiberglass problems.

the only thing the daughter managed to really do was to gut the inside. which is good. there is no disgusting wood or material to remove. just bare fiberglass to clean. it smells of oysters ( bay water ) inside but is not moldy.

it has an alcohol stove, which needs cleaned, and a sink. it also has a quarter berth.

the tiller was rotted from exposure, but that's not a hard thing to make. the rudder moved smoothly, except for being mired in the mud.

the mast, boom, and all the running rigging is in fine shape. the metal hardware, even what was exposed to the water, is in good shape. one of the rubber rub rails needs replaced.

the faux wood is actually a pattern in the fiberglass and the color was the topside paint. it wouldn't be unattractive if redone well.

they left the main sail lashed to the boom with the material sail cover on it, apparently since they got the sails. the cover was damp and there is a little mildew on the sail which would need cleaned. the halyard is stuck up at the mast head and i'd have to lower the sail to fix that. but that's not a huge problem since the mast is stepped on the deck with a hinged mast step, like on my holiday.

except for the wood colored deck paint, the topside paint looks fine. this gives me hope that the bottom paint may be good. if this is true, the barnacles may not be under the waterline, just on the sides, were the boat was sitting lower than the bottom paint.

since he is ok with me coming back to the house, without him there ( his aunt is on vacation he is hoping to deal with the boat before she returns Monday ), I am thinking of asking if he would mind if I used the lift, tonight, at high tide, to examine the underwater parts of the boat.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

the jib sail is not on the boat. the posts for the safety line, that is supposed to connect with the rails at the bow and stern, are missing. the hatch lids are also missing. he is going to ask about those things, for me.

he said there was an article done about the builder and he will call his aunt, who knows about that, where that article can be found.

what I don't like about the boat, itself:

that's a small list. the flat top means that the deck, above the cabin, is not level. it's angled. it has a 1" high toe rail, but I find that small comfort as the deck was slippery. I can only imagine how it would be in heavy weather. choosing a new deck paint with non-slip properties would help that out but I still would prefer a slightly raised cabin and a narrower, level, deck to walk forward on. sound silly, maybe, but I don't swim and I don't fancy slipping overboard when I go up to lash down the jib, in a blow. roller furling would help, but still....

there isn't a ton of head room inside. thankfully, i'm not overly tall. still, it's not great for more than weekends. not that you couldn't do more than weekends. it would be more like camping: uncomfortable, hard on the back, but still fun anyway.

after knowing it was under muddy water, I don't think that motor only needs plugs. however, i'd prefer a quiet, non-polluting, non-stinking battery powered motor, anyway. it has a lazerate, which also needs it's cover, that could house a large marine battery.

don't think I forgot anything. now, my quandary:


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

over all, the boat is far better than I had hoped. if the bottom paint is bad and it's coated with barnacles, that will be costly and time consuming. the average cost of hauling, blocking, cleaning, and launching is around $600 for a 24' sailboat, so far. I may be able to dicker a little, if I clean it myself.

on the other hand, if the bottom paint is good and the barnacles are only where I can see them, I wouldn't have to haul it. I could do my repairs on the water. that would drastically reduce the costs.

that being said, there are two arguments in my mind,

argument one:

it's not that bad and wouldn't take much to be a decent weekend cruiser. from what I have seen, it wouldn't cost a lot for the materials to fix it up. the storage is the real price problem. I could weld my trailer, quickly ( I need to stop putting that off anyhow ) and sail my holiday while I worked on it. then, when i'm done and have sailed the 'new' boat for a while, I can decide if I want to sell one of them or whatever. i'm thinking it would be foolish to ever sell the holiday. it's not costing me anything. as long as I have it, i'll have a sailboat. but I could sail the 'new' boat until I was prepared to upgrade and sell it for a few hundred dollars and still make profit.

argument two:

if I have to haul it, that'll be costly, in the short run, and my holiday costs me nothing. which is part of this argument, to wit: I already have a sailboat that needs no work and isn't going to cost me anything. also, as I have been reminded, I have a lot on my plate and do I really need another project? perhaps it would be better to strip it, at high tide tonight, and save my money til I find a better cheap or free boat, that won't take as much work. of course, it would be a shame to let it get cut up, but that's not my problem ( not an actual sentiment that fits my personality. if I choose argument two, I will feel bad about dooming this boat )

so, there you have it. I think I pretty much covered it. that's my dilemma.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Did you see the title, or anything else, to tell you what kind of boat it is?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

I didn't see the title. but I know what it is. a few posts back, someone found the same type of boat for sale on ebay. there are pictures of that boat back in the thread. it is, apparently, a Chesapeake, just like the guy said, originally. it's 24'11" LOA. 3" draft. he is supposed to get me the information so I can find and read the article about the builder. this is the boat, un-barnacled. lol. it was built by a local builder who did a very small volume.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Do any of the boat people you know know of a scout troop or youth organization that could use the rescue of this boat as a project? A boatbuilding/trade school?

Not to sound paranoid, but having dealt with Misters Murphy & Finagle many times, how much 'cushion' do you have in case something goes wrong with the Holiday or trailer?

I see how having a major 'project' boat would give you something to do when the weather is too bad to take the other boat out (N.B. Fix that trailer first!  ), but can you afford the time/money sink this free boat will be? Are there projects you could do for your working boat instead?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> Do any of the boat people you know know of a scout troop or youth organization that could use the rescue of this boat as a project? A boatbuilding/trade school?
> 
> Not to sound paranoid, but having dealt with Misters Murphy & Finagle many times, how much 'cushion' do you have in case something goes wrong with the Holiday or trailer?
> 
> I see how having a major 'project' boat would give you something to do when the weather is too bad to take the other boat out (N.B. Fix that trailer first!  ), but can you afford the time/money sink this free boat will be? Are there projects you could do for your working boat instead?


I don't really know any boat people, like that. the ones I do 'know' are up at lake Marburg, in Pa, where I have sailed for the last 17 years. I have started sailing on the Chesapeake, where this boat it, this summer and I don't know anyone here. this boat does not have a trailer and is a keel boat. no one from Pa is likely to be interested in a boat stuck here.

because I love sailboats, i'd like to save this sailboat. he's going to cut it up if I can't take it, and junk it. I would get stuff of off it to use on my holiday, but the boat's fate would be sealed. if I can't take it, finding someone who would is the next best thing but I don't know anyone.

i'm not actually looking for a project, per se. I have tons on my plate, already. but would like a small cruiser with a fixed keel; something kept on the water that I wouldn't have to trailer and raise the mast every time I use it. the holiday is a C/B day sailor. it's an awesome boat, but it's not a fix keel cruiser and I always need someone to help me raise the mast. I can't put it up, hold it up, AND hook up he jib stay all at the same time. the first time I sailed it, I single handed it but I had someone there to help me with the mast, when I launched and retrieved it. keeping a boat on the water would really be convenient if I wanted to go sailing, in a bigger boat, but no one was available to go with me.

as far as cushion, i'm an average working stiff, I live my life without any cushion. when emergencies pop up, I figure out a way. most people I know live that way.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Well if you can get it to free storage, it might just be worth saving. If you are going to have to pay for storage, then it likely will not. Free boats that can be fixed at home in the back/side yard are not too bad, and it sounds as though you like projects, I think I would have to side with BL Jones on this. Just be ok with the fact that you might have to cut it up and get rid of it if it does not work out. I would set a time limit with yourself, such as if it is not back in the water by the end of summer 2015 then it gets given away or taken to the dump.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I agree with miatapaul to a certain extent. I just don't understand why you've "fallen in love" with _this_ boat. It seems clear that this boat sank and was submerged, at least up to 6" below the deck. Based on the mud cakes, the deck was submerged also, and with the stanchions missing, it's a sure thing that the deck core is soaking wet and rotting from the inside. I know the guy seems like a nice fellow, but I still don't think he's giving you the whole story and fessing up to the duration of neglect.

Many use analogies between women and boats. If you compare this boat to the dozens of other neglected boats out there that could be gotten for almost no money (many on trailers), she is a "crack ho." I'd like to see you upgrade at least to some "trailer trash" that you can haul to your property and work on without incurring storage fees, insurance, and other ongoing unavoidable costs.

There's a story behind every derelict boat out there, and most of them start with guys just like you - good skills, eager to find a bargain, but work commitments needed to make a living prevent them from having enough time to make any real progress, so the boats just sit.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Any chance the aunt would let you keep it there for a nominal fee until you can get the boat seaworthy? Earlier you posted she wanted it moved because nothing was being done to the boat. If you can start making some (even minor, but visible) cosmetic fixes, the aunt might be more accepting. Offer her a sailing picnic once the boat passes sea trials.  Can't hurt to ask.

Good luck with her!
(That's her, the boat, and her the aunt.)


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

lol. thanks. I thought of that. but she doesn't know me and her neighbors are complaining about the boat being there. if she is kicking out her kin, I doubt she would let me keep it there, even for rent, til I get it back in order. I had thought of that though. maybe I should think of it some more.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

ok. the plot thickens. found out a bit more. we stopped by to look at the boat, again. I wanted to see it at high tide, when it's actually floating. maybe a bad idea. the motion of a boat on the water is seductive. we went on over, without texting him first. he said I could take it whenever so I figured he wouldn't mind me looking at it again.

I discovered that the halyard is not stuck. so, I can sail it out of there....if I take it, I mean. I won't deny, a big part of me wants to. and, while we were there a younger guy comes out to talk to us. turns out, he is the aunt's actual son...and he lives there. I explained why we were on her property and we had a conversation.

the boat has been there for years, according to him. it was much nicer when it got there. it's been underwater numerous times, some of them not so short. so, that's something to know and it agrees with my own suspicions, after seeing it. tillers don't usually rot in the open air. still, after looking it over again, while floating this time, I can't say that there is structural damage. the deck is solid, except that one spot. the chain plates are solid and the rigging good. the rudder does work just fine, out of the mud. 

this guy invited us to come by during the day, tomorrow, if we wish to look at it again. I am going to and, since he lives there, I am going to ask his permission to use the lift so I can see the underside. that would be a big help.

so, there it is, still torn. the history is frightening yet it looks better than it sounds. it is free. it wouldn't cost a ton to get ready to sail. but the marina fees will be something to consider. I did find a better and cheaper marina. they will do monthly and I can get a slip with a lift, if I like. 

still considering....


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Told you so.

Why would the nephew think he has to lie to you about a boat he's giving away for free? Because anyone who knows about these things knows there are dozens of better free boats that haven't been sunk. Time to fall out of love.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Jack,

Re: Using the lift to inspect the bottom. A good many (most) sailboats are rounded on the bottom, and motor boats are generally straight. The lift, assuming it is set up for a motor boat, probably has straight bunks. If the sailboat has a significant curve in the hull, the straight bunks might over stress a curved hull. My C22 had a fair amount of curve and trailer bunks were "bent" accordingly. I've seen other small sailboats where the bottom was more straight and straight bunks wouldn't be a problem. Not sure what the boat you are looking at has. If you have access to any literature on this boat, you might look to make sure that the hull is relatively flat.

Fixed keel may or may not cause a problem in getting into the lift. That one is easy, either it will or it won't go into the lift.


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

Is it possible to anchor the boat for a long period of time, until you can afford the marina? Just get an LED anchor light and a small power source.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Some thoughts/concerns:

How big a weather window do you need to get to the marina?

Do you have someone to be chase in case you need powered help? 

A working outboard you can rent/borrow?

Do you have/can you make a good emergency tiller? How quickly?

How's the rudder & post holding up?

Can you trust the rigging to get you there?

Should you take it, is the title there, with a bill-of-gift? Don't want you getting canned for piracy, now do we?

Would thinking of the marina charges as paying the mortgage on your boat make them more palatable?

Hope she works out for you. Good luck!


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Does the marina require insurance? Can you get a policy on this boat?


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Jack, I wish you well no matter what road you choose. I respectfully think taking this boat would be a mistake, but you've seen her and know your abilities, time, and resources better than me.

We looked at a boat that we think was damaged by Hurricane Sandy. She had problems near the keel. When the tide was out, she looked beautiful (Islander 28), except for a line about 6" from the cabin floor. It took a while to realize what was happening - you could see where the water would come in as the tide came in. Basically, she sat on the bottom, and the dock lines and bottom kept her from completely sinking. She was at a private dock, and I was afraid she wouldn't even make the trip to a local marina to have her hauled for inspection. Until we saw the water line, my wife was convinced that this was the boat for us. Once we saw the water mark, we knew it was time to walk away. We STILL talk about that boat, how pretty she was, and what a shame it was to have to let her go. But from what we could piece together, the repair costs were more than the boat was worth.

Anyway...good luck. If you do take her, please start a new thread that shows your progress!


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

steel said:


> Is it possible to anchor the boat for a long period of time, until you can afford the marina? Just get an LED anchor light and a small power source.


Don't forget that when it sinks again at anchor you'll be liable for recovery costs.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

A sample 'To-Do' list (in no particular order):

Find a (cheap) place to keep her, and get her there in one piece, right-side-up, and afloat.

Clean off mud, bird crap, sea life (flora and fauna), remove same from internal spaces as well.

Remove, inspect, clean/replace, rebed *all* deck hardware & fittings, up to and including chainplates.

Remove & replace *all* wiring and electrical fittings.

Inspect/dry/repair/remove/replace *all* submerged wooden parts, up to & including cores.

Unmount, clean/lube, rebed *all* mechanical devices.

Replace missing hatches, fittings, furniture, compass, radio...

Bring her up to meet at least minimal Coast Guard specs.

Get licenses/registrations/effluvial bureaucratic minutiae covered.

...and then you can start trying to make her look pretty again: paint, varnish, new sails, new rigging...

If you did not already have a working boat (fix that trailer yet?  ), I might say take a chance on this one,- but I'm thinking you can do better. Sail your boat, make lists of what you like & what you'd like to change on your next boat.

Be patient.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Jack If you keep this thread going much longer people will pay you to let you work on the boat in their living rooms! 

There as so many free to nearly free boats out there. Let this one go! Spend some time visiting working boat yards, yacht clubs, hell make some friends while you are at it.


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## steel (Sep 1, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> Don't forget that when it sinks again at anchor you'll be liable for recovery costs.


Better attach the slings to it before it sinks again!


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

steel said:


> Better attach the slings to it before it sinks again!


A few 55-gal. drums would make good fenders, *and* keep her off the bottom.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

NCC320 said:


> Jack,
> 
> Re: Using the lift to inspect the bottom. A good many (most) sailboats are rounded on the bottom, and motor boats are generally straight. The lift, assuming it is set up for a motor boat, probably has straight bunks. If the sailboat has a significant curve in the hull, the straight bunks might over stress a curved hull. My C22 had a fair amount of curve and trailer bunks were "bent" accordingly. I've seen other small sailboats where the bottom was more straight and straight bunks wouldn't be a problem. Not sure what the boat you are looking at has. If you have access to any literature on this boat, you might look to make sure that the hull is relatively flat.
> 
> Fixed keel may or may not cause a problem in getting into the lift. That one is easy, either it will or it won't go into the lift.


oh right. hadn't considered that. I don't really have any info one it, other than what is posted here. he says they do have the hatches. that's something. so the lift is out. I will have to check on the lift at the marina I am thinking about, too. glad you chimed in with that thought.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

steel said:


> Is it possible to anchor the boat for a long period of time, until you can afford the marina? Just get an LED anchor light and a small power source.


well, I can squeeze the fee for the one marina out Wednesday. but, what's the legality of that? can you just let a boat at anchor on a public water way, like that?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> Some thoughts/concerns:
> 
> How big a weather window do you need to get to the marina?
> 
> ...


the marina I would most likely use isn't far. less than 15 minute sail away, actually, going by the map. so, I don't need a long window and it won't be a long sail.

I really don't know anyone with a power boat to follow me, unless he will do it ( which I have been considering asking ) and I know no one with an outboard.

however, it's not a far sail away. an emergency tiller is as easy as a cut off broom handle. that's not a problem. making things is what I do.

the rudder and post are quite functional. they move freely but no rattling and, when you move the tiller back and forth vigorously, it moves the boat...so the rudder does work.

the standing rigging appears sturdy and trustworthy. no corrosion on any of the metal parts of the boat. the shrouds, fore stay, and back stay all seem to have proper tension, too. the deck, under it, is sturdy, too. I trust it as much as anyone can trust anything they didn't build themselves.

there is a title and he said he'd write me an appropriate bill of sale stating the gift nature of the exchange.

it's not palatability of the marina fees that is an issue, it's the viability. but this one marina is not badly priced, they will let me pay monthly for a while, quarterly on a more permanent basis, and they are willing to work with me on making sure I have the facilities I need. I had a really good experience speaking with them


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> Does the marina require insurance? Can you get a policy on this boat?


that is a good question. when I explained what is up to the marina on back river, the first thing they said was about having liability insurance.

I explained all of the same things to this marina and they never mentioned it. I forgot to ask. a lot on my mind. but I will have to find that out. as long as I have the HIN, I should be able to get liability.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

jimgo said:


> Jack, I wish you well no matter what road you choose. I respectfully think taking this boat would be a mistake, but you've seen her and know your abilities, time, and resources better than me.
> 
> We looked at a boat that we think was damaged by Hurricane Sandy. She had problems near the keel. When the tide was out, she looked beautiful (Islander 28), except for a line about 6" from the cabin floor. It took a while to realize what was happening - you could see where the water would come in as the tide came in. Basically, she sat on the bottom, and the dock lines and bottom kept her from completely sinking. She was at a private dock, and I was afraid she wouldn't even make the trip to a local marina to have her hauled for inspection. Until we saw the water line, my wife was convinced that this was the boat for us. Once we saw the water mark, we knew it was time to walk away. We STILL talk about that boat, how pretty she was, and what a shame it was to have to let her go. But from what we could piece together, the repair costs were more than the boat was worth.
> 
> Anyway...good luck. If you do take her, please start a new thread that shows your progress!


thanks. I definitely will.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

captain jack said:


> ...I explained all of the same things to this marina and they never mentioned it. I forgot to ask.


Ask.


captain jack said:


> ...as long as I have the HIN, I should be able to get liability.


Verify.

Your insurer may require a survey. Good luck passing one with this boat. Not sure many insurers will want to underwrite liability for a boat that keeps sinking.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> Don't forget that when it sinks again at anchor you'll be liable for recovery costs.


yeah, but whatever else I may be, i'm not dumb enough to let a boat sit without covers, so it fills with rain water and sinks.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

captain jack said:


> yeah, but whatever else I may be, i'm not dumb enough to let a boat sit without covers, so it fills with rain water and sinks.


You're assuming that the boat was sunk by rainwater.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> You're assuming that the boat was sunk by rainwater.


I didn't see evidence showing otherwise, but that is a good point. the son, who seemed more than willing to pass along every bit of info he had, said that's exactly what happened each time. they'd raise the boat and then it would fill with rain water, get heavy enough that it would get stuck in the mud at low tide and flood at high tide. I didn't get the impression he had any interest in hiding the facts. rather the opposite. he said he'd scrap it out because he wouldn't trust it. he also said he knew next to nothing about boats. but he was a witness to the events and seemed forthcoming.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

captain jack said:


> I didn't see evidence showing otherwise, but that is a good point. the son, who seemed more than willing to pass along every bit of info he had, said that's exactly what happened each time. they'd raise the boat and then it would fill with rain water, get heavy enough that it would get stuck in the mud at low tide and flood at high tide. I didn't get the impression he had any interest in hiding the facts. rather the opposite. he said he'd scrap it out because he wouldn't trust it. he also said he knew next to nothing about boats. but he was a witness to the events and seemed forthcoming.


Why did they remove the hatches?

My guess: They didn't remove the hatches - they were forced off by the tides and currents after the boat sunk.

So if they didn't remove the hatches, how did the boat sink in the first place?

It takes A LOT of rain water to sink a boat. I'm not aware of boats getting "glued" to the bottom at low tide in a way that would hold them down in opposition to the buoyancy forces when the tide comes in. Maybe a fin keel boat could tip sideways, and a storm with big seas could wash enough seawater into the boat to sink it.

But in general, I'd be suspicious of any hypothesis that this boat was sunk just due to rainwater.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

i'm going to go look at it again tomorrow, to make my decision. then, I will either decide to take it or I will strip it and go home.

it's a tough decision. do I make her mine and bring her back to health or do I treat her like trash, strip her of what I can use, and leave her to her fate? rough though she looks, there she is, sitting on the water, just waiting to be sailed....waiting for someone to give ****. when I stood on her deck leaning against the shrouds with her moving under me on the water, this evening after she was free of the mud, it felt liker home. sailboats have that effect, even when they are in need of help.

but, tomorrow I will give her one last look to make sure I have all the info I can, and didn't miss anything. then I will make my decision. it's funny. whether it's boats or cars or motorcycles, I usually have a pretty dependable gut feeling and my gut isn't screaming walk away. my head is full of doubts, just as it is when setting sail in heavy weather. but my head will always make me pause and fail to rise to the task, if I let it. you can talk yourself out of anything. there are logical reasons not to do just about anything you can think of. think about it long enough, and you'll never take a step outside your door.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> Why did they remove the hatches?
> 
> My guess: They didn't remove the hatches - they were forced off by the tides and currents after the boat sunk.
> 
> ...


it's rained a few times, since he said he pumped it out last. there is about an inch of water in it. no one is bothering to pump it out. it adds up. eventually the boat would sit low in the water, anyway. and you are probably right. it probably tipped on the fin. it was mired in mud at low tide today and it didn't have much rain water in it. I imagine it would be worse with a lot of water, from successive rains. but I don't know that.

that's why i'm not sure.

if I could be sure of it, i'd not hesitate to take it. or, if I had a lot of money, i'd also wouldn't hesitate to take it. but i'm just not sure enough about either my doubts or my positive feelings to easily make a decision.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

i have had it rain really hard for a few days and water collect on the tarp over m holiday. it makes the tarp sag and really fill. if i don't catch it in time, after a few days of heavy rain, the weight is enough to pick up the tongue of the trailer, even though i have a truck wheel on it for weight, and lean her right back til the stern is resting on the ground.

rain can add up quickly and it can get pretty heavy. but, i wasn't there so it's all conjecture. in the end, i have to trust the evidence of my eyes and decide ftom that.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

captain jack said:


> ...in the end, i have to trust the evidence of my eyes and decide ftom that.


No, you should get an insurance survey and trust the expert eyes of a trained professional. If he says you can't get insurance, your options may be severely limited no matter how pretty you make the boat look.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

oh. right. lol. well, survey fees are high. if I need a survey to get liability, then it's all off. if I could afford a survey, I wouldn't be concerned with marina fees.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

captain jack said:


> oh. right. lol. well, survey fees are high. if I need a survey to get liability, then it's all off...


So you're going to find out if you need a survey before you make your decision tomorrow?


captain jack said:


> ...if I could afford a survey, I wouldn't be concerned with marina fees.


I don't quite understand this statement. In your situation, I'd say you can't afford NOT to have a survey. At the very least, go see if you can find a liability policy that doesn't require a survey. Otherwise you may end up with a boat that nobody is willing to take into their marina.

Love is blind. And just as with women, there's no accounting for some people's tastes.

I still don't understand, with all the free and almost-free boats out there that have never sunk, why are you so obsessed with THIS crack-ho of a boat? Ask the guy to sit on the boat for a week and go look at some others. Do your homework.


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## Tim Newman (Sep 26, 2013)

I'd buy the boat for $1 rather than accept it as a gift. Legally it will be a lot simpler than trying to explain it was a gift, should the transfer of ownership ever get queried in the future (especially if you come to sell it again).


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

really? i'm sure he would do that.


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

Since you're making the drive, take the day to walk around some other marinas in the area. Look for boats on the hard with registration stickers from, say, 2008. Those are boats that haven't been in the water for 5 years. See if you can make some kind of deal for one of those.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

that's a good idea. I might just do that. from my GF's apartment ( where I am on the weekends ), it's actually only 5 minutes away. however, there are a good may marinas in the area. it may be worth a day of driving around. 

he had emailed me letting me know they had the hatches and asked if I had decided. I was evasive and simply said that I had been checking marinas, which I did, and that I would need til wed, if I take it, to have the money for a marina.

he responded this morning by telling me I had til Wednesday, then ( before it was Monday ), and that, if I wanted, he could help me move it to a marina.

well, I think I will go marina hopping today, while I am out. high tide is at 6:30, still pretty late. I am going to look at it around 4. that halfway between high and low tide. I am going to make my decision, right then, and, if I decide not to take it, I will strip it before I leave.

I want to thank everyone for their input. it's been very helpful, informative, and it's given me lot's of things to consider, while making my decision. regardless of what I choose today, what I have learned in this thread will be a big help as I move into the future.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> It takes A LOT of rain water to sink a boat. I'm not aware of boats getting "glued" to the bottom at low tide in a way that would hold them down in opposition to the buoyancy forces when the tide comes in. Maybe a fin keel boat could tip sideways, and a storm with big seas could wash enough seawater into the boat to sink it.


Or, some big motorized-holes-in-the-water came through, throwing their tsunami-sized wakes at her while she was vulnerable. At the wrong time, it wouldn't take much to flood the cockpit & overwhelm her. Can you tell how big the drains are, and are they completely clear?



> When I stood on her deck leaning against the shrouds with her moving under me on the water, this evening after she was free of the mud, it felt liker home. sailboats have that effect, even when they are in need of help.


Ain't that the truth! Careful, Jack,- she's seducing you. Did you get the info about the designer/builder? I can see added attraction in saving a rare breed of boat, if she was basically sound in design & build. Kind of a knight -you- saving a princess -the boat- from a dragon -the sea- story. Romantic? -Yes. Possible? -Probably. Practical? -Maybe not so much.

Too bad you don't know too many people there, you might be able to pull a Tom-Sawyer-and-the-picket-fence. Maybe some of the folk at the marina would be willing & able to help.

It just occurred to me what this reminds me of: Mal Reynolds finding 'Serenity', on that fun old science-fiction show "Firefly".  If you could go into this with that mindset, and sustain it, you might pull this off in spite of the steep climb it looks to be.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

scratchee said:


> Since you're making the drive, take the day to walk around some other marinas in the area. Look for boats on the hard with registration stickers from, say, 2008. Those are boats that haven't been in the water for 5 years. See if you can make some kind of deal for one of those.


That works. My brother James got a nice 24' fishing boat, with trailer, from a boatyard it had been in for a long time. The yard wanted $500, Jimmy said "I've got two.", "Sold!" said the yard man,- he even had the title!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm not going to get emotionally involved with talking you out of this boat. Only trying to be helpful by saying that you are fully rationalizing this situation. At the least, you've admitted to yourself that it will take some money to be usable. While you've convinced yourself that is much less than I believe it will be, this boat is not worth any amount you've talked yourself into. There are boats available at that amount, any amount, that are far superior to a sunken, abandon boat. How long do you think the one sail will last after being at the bottom long enough for the rudder to rot? All the best.........


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> Or, some big motorized-holes-in-the-water came through, throwing their tsunami-sized wakes at her while she was vulnerable. At the wrong time, it wouldn't take much to flood the cockpit & overwhelm her. Can you tell how big the drains are, and are they completely clear?
> 
> Ain't that the truth! Careful, Jack,- she's seducing you. Did you get the info about the designer/builder? I can see added attraction in saving a rare breed of boat, if she was basically sound in design & build. Kind of a knight -you- saving a princess -the boat- from a dragon -the sea- story. Romantic? -Yes. Possible? -Probably. Practical? -Maybe not so much.
> 
> ...


I felt around the cockpit sole, under the water. I checked that as soon as I got there. there are no cockpit drains. it's not self bailing. that would have to change.

that's an awesome movie.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm not going to get emotionally involved with talking you out of this boat. Only trying to be helpful by saying that you are fully rationalizing this situation. At the least, you've admitted to yourself that it will take some money to be usable. While you've convinced yourself that is much less than I believe it will be, this boat is not worth any amount you've talked yourself into. There are boats available at that amount, any amount, that are far superior to a sunken, abandon boat. How long do you think the one sail will last after being at the bottom long enough for the rudder to rot? All the best.........


well, that's one reason i'm going back today: to try to filter out the glamour. I won't deny. it's not fully rational. it's a bit of an adventure, even. the sail hasn't been under water. it never sunk that deep. the water there isn't that deep. it was the tiller, a stick of wood, and not the rudder. however, I do see your point. that's why i'm not just jumping at it.

at some point, like all things in life, you either take the risk or you don't. there are a lot of days I set out in my 9' dinghy ( much much more tender than the holiday ) when a rational man would stay ashore. honestly, a rational man, who couldn't swim like I can't, might think twice about sailing, or at least sailing a small dinghy, at all.

I am going to do my best to make a sound decision but no decision about a boat should be made without an element of passion. it's like marrying a woman, who is a perfect partner, but whom you feel nothing for and don't find particularly attractive. it might be perfectly rational. women, that are truly good partners, are hard to find. rationally, you should suck it up and choose a good partner, but who can be happy with a choice like that? where would be the joy in the living?

I will not take up this project if I don't think I can actually get a good result. if I do take it up, I do so in the attitude that it is an adventure...a quest, if you will. if I was to be completely rational, as has been pointed out, I would have no boat until I was set up financially and had a nice nest egg as an emergency fund. then, I would take real money and find a boat at a reputable broker, one that had been surveyed and proven good.

in fact, if I was a completely rational person, I would have taken swimming lessons and then sailing lessons before ever sailing. a rational person, who can't swim, doesn't go out and get a bunch of books on sailing and sailboat design, buy a really small old dinghy that needs help, itself, and just go sailing. that's crazy. that's how you drown. that dinghy, which has done me so good for 17 years and has had much more time on the water than my holiday, didn't just need some fixing up to make it nice or to make it exactly what I want. it leaked like a sieve. I had to go to shore every half an hour, remove the rubber cork I use for a drain plug, tilt the boat back on the transom while holding the boom out of the way, and drain a ton of water out of it. then back on the water, i'd go. also not rational...but not a mistake. sailing, and that boat specifically, has been one of the greatest elements in my life. it gives me sanity. I have loved that boat, and always will. no matter what boats I have in the future I will always treasure, and always sail, that little dinghy that started it's life with me as someone else's trash.

i'm not saying this boat is another boat, like my dinghy, just that it might be. I am saying I am giving it serious thought before I decide it's a hopeless cause whose time of usefulness is past.

I hope all the people who have posted here don't think their warnings have fallen on deaf ears. they haven't and they have helped me be more critical of this decision than I might otherwise have been. but, in the end, i'm the one who can actually see this boat and i'm the one that knows my capabilities and i'm the one that will be stuck with the outcome of my decision.

if I could download all my sensory input, from checking this boat out, into the computer and you guys could just plug into it, that would be great because you could see what I see. you might have the same dire predictions but you might not, either. with the limited input I can write here and the history I have gleaned, you can't help but only see the bad and it would be unkind of you not to point it out to me and let me walk into a trap, unaware. and I am thankful you guys have done your best to help me avoid a big mistake. your efforts are not wasted. I will be very critical before I make that final decision.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

captain jack said:


> if I could download all my sensory input, from checking this boat out, into the computer and you guys could just plug into it, that would be great because you could see what I see. you might have the same dire predictions but you might not, either. with the limited input I can write here and the history I have gleaned, you can't help but only see the bad and it would be unkind of you not to point it out to me and let me walk into a trap, unaware. and I am thankful you guys have done your best to help me avoid a big mistake. your efforts are not wasted. I will be very critical before I make that final decision.


 The Singularity  is coming.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

jack: It's great that you are excited and have some background coming from dinghies.

Even a simple keelboat like this has a more complicated hull structure than your Holiday dinghy. Your Holiday is probably a simple 2-piece fiberglass layout with no core. You can't assume that repair work that you've done on a dinghy scales up. For this reason a basic dinghy can be restored from failure much more successfully than a sunken keelboat.

It would take a miracle for a boat to spend significant amount of time under water and not get water into the deck's core. Recoring a deck will cost you a significant amount of time and money. There isn't an easy fix here, the process involves removing one layer of the deck, inserting new core, and epoxying it all back together. I strongly suggest reading about that process before going further.

I know that you have said that the core seems solid. I will say that it takes experience to note delamination damage before it is really bad. A little water will cause a lot of damage with time though. The tapping test can produce a pretty subtle result between "good" and "delaminated".

The primary value on a 24' boat isn't the hull. It is the cushions/interior, outboard motor, and sails. Most used 24' boats sell for less than what these parts would go for on their own. It sounds like out of these items you might be getting some unknown quality used sails for free. It's really not worth it.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

If he's *really* lucky, the low-output designer/builder eschewed cores for the more-expensive and stronger solid mat-and-roving construction.


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

You're in the trap we all have been in - you look at the boat and see the *potential*, not the reality. You see past the grime and decay to what she *could* be. just estimate the cost first - then double it, that'll probably be closer. Estimate the work, and triple it. Honestly. Boat projects operate in a timewarp, disconnected from reality, where everything takes longer (and costs more). I've been at this for a few years, and it always astonishes me how long a simple task takes - don't ask me why! Something I could do in the shop in 10 minutes takes an hour on the boat...

Yeah, it is an adventure. You're getting a lot of good advice, especially seeing what else you could find for free before you decide. Good luck!


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

> just estimate the cost first - then double it, that'll probably be closer. Estimate the work, and triple it. Honestly. Boat projects operate in a timewarp, disconnected from reality, where everything takes longer (and costs more). I've been at this for a few years, and it always astonishes me how long a simple task takes -don't ask me why! Something I could do in the shop in 10 minutes takes an hour on the boat...


Cheop's Law ("Nothing is ever finished on schedule or under budget.") applies to boat repair, too.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

So, The Seafarer 31 is still sitting.. Our new commodore is peeved with the former member that left his boat with us. The owner (tells me it's sold) but has not told anyone else it's "sold" and that it was to be picked up 2 weeks ago.... So... stay tuned on that LOL Looks like keel stepped mast? I'm going to sneak an inside peek this week.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

deniseO30 said:


> So, The Seafarer 31 is still sitting.. Our new commodore is peeved with the former member that left his boat with us. The owner (tells me it's sold) but has not told anyone else it's "sold" and that it was to be picked up 2 weeks ago.... So... stay tuned on that LOL Looks like keel stepped mast? I'm going to sneak an inside peek this week.


Don't forget to get pix, Superspygal.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Here ya go jack! Sail boat
$700 OBO with trailer.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

it's done. I made a decision. we went to several marinas, today, before going to look at the boat again. I saw two boats I know were for sale. one was a tartan 28. very nice the only thing it needs is the inside needs cleaned; not from being underwater but from lax house keeping. not everyone keeps their vessel ship shape and Bristol fashion. $2800 but the owner may be willing to dicker. not a bad price but out of my range, unless he's willing to do a lay away plan over the winter. lol. 

the other boat was an oday. I think an oday 28. don't know what they want. 

there were two, though, that I really liked. a seafarer, like the one Denise was checking on for me. the paint wasn't as nice but the boat looked good. I am going to call the marina and see if it's for sale. it's apparently been on jacks for some time. the registration sticker was for 07.

the other boat was an Irwin. not sure the model. full, shallow keel. maybe 30 feet. the sticker was for 09. it needs paint. going to call about that, too. not sure if the last two were for sale, yet.

looking at the boat with the rose colored glasses and checking it with a fine tooth comb, I found a few more soft spots in the deck. and I was looking at all those barnacles inside and out. it's too much. I didn't want that to be the case, but I have o be realistic. it's too bad they killed that boat. at one time, it was really nice. if I could have taken the mast and boom I would have. it had roller furling on the main. there was a crank on the front of the mast and you just wind the sale down around the boom and hook up the new tack and clew. sweet. a real shame.

anyhow, I got a lot of stuff. took a bit of work though. I got:

3 winches. I would have taken the 4th but it was too fouled with barnacles to be worth the hard work it took to remove the winches.

I got 3 really nice harken carbon fiber racing blocks. also got a hand full of other blocks.

I got a swivel block with a cam cleat on it.

I got the main sail and it's cover.

I got a bunch of nice shackles, of various kinds. some of them would really be pricy to buy.

I got a Danforth anchor a bit heavier than the one on my holiday.

I got a handful of other mounting hardware.

I got the bow and stern rails. 

I got a two burner alcohol stove. one of the flame adjusting wheels is cracked but that's going to be easy to replace and I doubt it will cost much.

there were a few clam cleats I tried to take but they wouldn't come off and it wasn't worth the work chiseling through the thick fiberglass mounting point, so I let them go. 

so that's it, for now. I am going to fix my trailer and sail the holiday on the bay and keep my eyes open. i'll call about those other boats but I doubt they will be cheap boats, but you never know.

thanks, again, to all those who took the time to give me advice and things to consider. this was a big learning process and, if nothing else, I know what course I should sail, in the future.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

manatee said:


> If he's *really* lucky, the low-output designer/builder eschewed cores for the more-expensive and stronger solid mat-and-roving construction.


no. I had to chisel some of the hardware off because the screws wouldn't come out. in places where I noted the deck was soft, the core had actually turned to dirt between the laminates.


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

I think you had a great weekend. Congratulations.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

deniseO30 said:


> So, The Seafarer 31 is still sitting.. Our new commodore is peeved with the former member that left his boat with us. The owner (tells me it's sold) but has not told anyone else it's "sold" and that it was to be picked up 2 weeks ago.... So... stay tuned on that LOL Looks like keel stepped mast? I'm going to sneak an inside peek this week.


cool! I have seen two of those down here an I like the looks of them


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

deniseO30 said:


> Here ya go jack! Sail boat
> $700 OBO with trailer.


cool! thanks. I just emailed him. have you ever heard of a crad y king?


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

it was. and i'm going sailing in the inner harbor tomorrow.

it's been a learning experience. because of this free boat and thanks to you guys I have learned a lot about marinas, the boat market, yacht clubs...the cruising side of sailing but maybe more importantly, I learned something about my own heart. I have always thought I was happy just day sailing. I do love it and I will always sail the dinghy, even if I get a cruiser and end up selling the holiday. but I never realized how much I wanted more than that. this boat woke such a fire in my heart that I now realize what I need to do in my life; where my happiness truly lies.

any week that can teach you so much, is definitely a great one.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Well done, Jack. I think you chose wisely. Now you can fix your trailer, sail your boat on fair days, recondition your salvaged treasures on foul days, and look forward to the future.

Best of luck,
Gary


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

thanks Gary. it's been nice 'meeting' you.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

captain jack said:


> thanks Gary. it's been nice 'meeting' you.


Thanks, good meeting you too. Keep us posted on your quest.


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## tschmidty (Sep 25, 2008)

I am going to say 'score' on the free bits you were able to salvage. Those are the bits that can add up if you get a boat that needs rigging replaced or other things missing or that you want to add. Good luck you'll find another boat to love soon enough.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

will do. we will see what comes of this boat Denise found on craigslist.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

tschmidty said:


> I am going to say 'score' on the free bits you were able to salvage. Those are the bits that can add up if you get a boat that needs rigging replaced or other things missing or that you want to add. Good luck you'll find another boat to love soon enough.


yeah. I agree. I am happy with the things I got. the holiday never had rails and walking to the bow to lash down the jib, when the wind gets hard enough to sail under main alone has always been a bit dicey, really. you don't think about it, at the moment, though.

the blocks I got are better than the ones on the holiday. upgrade.

so, I will get use out of the stuff.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

I wrote him to notify him of my decision. this is what I wrote:

"ok. i have come to a decision. this has been a hard decision for me. that was once a really nice sailboat. it even had roller reefing for the main sail. I wish my holiday 20 had a mast and boom like that! i really wanted to rescue it. i went to look at it, again. since you said i could take it whenever i wanted, i didn't figure you would mind me looking at it, again. i saw a lot more clearly, this time. besides he barnacles that are all over the outside and inside, which i might never fully rid the interior of, i discovered many places where there is fiberglass delamination; soft spongy areas on the deck. that's not good. as it urns out, the balsa core has actually turned to dirt, in some areas. if it can be fixed, it entails removing the top layer of glass, replacing the core, and epoxying the top layer of glass back on. it's just way too much. the cost and time to do it would be unreal. If I took it, i'd just end up wasting a lot of time and money. it's unsafe as it is and I can't fix it.

when you are cutting it up, if you can keep from damaging the mast, boom, stays ( wires that support the mast ), and mast step ( the piece that attaches the mast to the deck ), i'd love to have them. just let me know and I will come down to pick them up. if you have the jib sail, i'd take that, too. whatever you do, don't pay the landfill to get rid of these parts. at least ebay them. they are nice and someone should use them. I do see masts and booms on ebay, frequently. if I could have taken them today, I would have. anyhow, let me know about that.

one piece of advice, a keelboat usually has a keel that is made of led, at least partially. probably almost a thousand pounds of it, in a boat that size. sell it to a salvage yard. it would probably pay the landfill costs for the rest and might even give you a bit of pay for your work.

I appreciate you working with me, the last few days, to try to rescue that boat. I love sailboats and it hurts to see one destroyed. I just can't save that one, no matter how much I want to. 

you had said I could take the parts I wanted before you demo the boat so I did that today. they will be put to good use on my holiday 20. 

I was talking to your aunt's son while I was there. he was telling me how many times, and how long, it had been under water. that does explain all the barnacles and the delamination. when you and I were talking, I hadn't understood just how much it had been under water. he said it was nice when it first came there and that your aunt has been wanting it gone for years. I really wish i'd have known about it back then. i'd have loved to have had it and would gladly have taken it off her hands.

anyhow, good luck and let me know about the mast, boom, stays, and mast step. 

thanks again"

I really hope he gives me the spars. I am sure I could make them work on my holiday, with a little work. it doesn't have reef points, at present, but I could have them put in the sail and a roller reefing main would be awesome. then I just need to get a roller furler for the jib. actually, I could make one.

so that is that and this thread is all wrapped up.


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## captain jack (May 5, 2013)

well, check that out. this boat may have lead me to a cruising sailboat, after all. I called about that boat that Denise posted about. it's an o'day 22 and it sounds really nice. I may go see it this weekend. one thing leads to another and you can never tell where a course will lead you.


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