# SV Melodaire - 55' Steel sail boat project (Glen-L Lodestar)



## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

Howdy everybody!

This is the start of a new project, since I was a little kid I have wanted to build a boat someday. It all started with my Grandpa Don, in 1962 he built a boat from scratch from some Glen L plans, and much of my childhood was spent on that boat.

About the time I was 10 I got my hands on an plan Catalog from Glen L, and I was bit by the bug I wanted to build a boat of my own someday. As well at the time in the Mid 90's Highlander was on TV still airing new episodes and it was one of my favorite shows, the season in Paris where Duncan lived on the barge heavily influenced me in wanting to live on a boat.

Then in 1999 after the death of a very good friend in a car accident I wound up dropping out of high school and joined the Navy and during my time in the Navy I spent a good portion of it working at the base marina which is where I discovered sailing even though I only went a few times.

In 2007 I moved to Texas for a while and got a job welding on the USS Lexington, there I did a lot of work on the ship learned a lot of skills and I went to school at the local college for welding and CNC machining. After working on the Lex I ran my own welding shop for a few years. Then in 2011 I was in a bad car accident where I broke my back and got really messed up. I spent 3 years out of work, I had to shut my shop down, it was a pretty sucky ordeal.

I wanted to return to welding when I went back to work but my body still was not ready so I went back to over the road trucking for a while.










I bought a truck and a trailer and I am currently in the process of paying it off. I still have a lot of my welding equipment and next year once the truck is paid off I am going to start working towards building a 55' Sail Boat.

After a lot of thought and careful research I have decided to go with a Glen L Lodestar. Originally I was going to build a diesel trawler, but considering I want to eventually sail around the world, it would take hundreds of thousands of dollars in diesel fuel to do so, so a sail boat it will be!

These are photos from Glen L showing the design I have chosen.



















I really like the layout of this boat because each state room has its own entryway, and there are 3 bathrooms each containing a shower.

As well my best friend Charles is going to be joining me on this adventure helping me build the boat and sailing it with me. So having a berth for him, one for me and having them at opposite ends of the boat will be great to help us not get on each others nerves in close quarters. Then we will have the 3rd state room for when guests come to visit.

I am going to keep this introduction brief as I will be updating it later, in my next post I will be sharing 3d renderings of the boat that I have created from the plans I bought, and I will share those with you. As well we will be starting a YouTube channel based on the boat and I will be posting those videos here as they are uploaded.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

I ordered the study plans so I could setup a model in Google Sketchup just to see how the boat would look when all together seeing as how very few people have built one and posted pictures of it on the internet.

To do this I started with the pdf and copied each section into a Jpg file that I could then import into Sketchup and I arranged the frames accordingly assigning each to its own layer and then assigning all of those groups to a master layer state that could turn them all on or off with one click.










The after I had traced out the frames I was able to loft the hull and come up with a basic rendering.










To this I added a swim step on the back of the transom with stairs to facilitate swimming and scuba diving from the Melodaire. It will also make it much easier not having to climb over the side when getting on board off of the dock, or my dinghy.










One thing I really love about this design is the spacious engine room located under the dinette.










I am going to set this up as a floating mobile work shop with a bench in there and tool cabinets and even a small drill press and maybe even a welder.

Anyone who has spent any time on boats can tell you this is an extremely rare feature on a vessel this size!

Then came the interior layout:










Currently I am using the interior design as specified so as that I can get an idea how everything would work, then it will be customized to meet my needs in future renditions of this drawing.

Additionally I am playing with the idea of installing a water tight door in the transom which would create a place to store SCUBA tanks and to house the compressor to fill them.

I even went as far as to draw the sails just for reference.










All in all I think the Melodaire is going to be an amazing project that will turn into an amazing adventure. I plan to live aboard her full time when she is completed.

My next step is I need to buy another years worth of Autocad Mechanical and get the full plans and patterns, from this I will develop a perfect to scale drawing and I will start to develop the Melodaire further from there.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

I will throw this up as well, this is a link to the plans for the boat. 

Glen-L Lodestar

I would also like to hear from you more experienced sailors out there. The vast majority of my experience in the past is with power boats and Navy ships, I am pretty new to sailing, and this is going to be my first live aboard.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

That is a very big dream. I am a builder/DIY by nature and have build my share of big projects and still building stuff but never a boat project that large. In my experience the best way to complete a project that large is to start building. The pictures of the build and the internet documentation are fine. making renderings can be helpful when planning mods to the original design but sticking to the plans will get you a boat built in the least amount time. Considering a build of this size will take 20 years to complete I would not plan to many mods to the original as they can triple the time to build. Then there is the money that will be required to build that large a boat equipped to sail the 7 seas. even if you use all good used materials and equipment a project of this size will cost a minimum of $500k. 
If you are a true builder you will spend the next 20 years building your dream boat at twice the price you could buy one for. if building is your dream then build, if sailing is your dream then buy a boat and sail.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

I was surprised no one responded to this.. but just realized it was an hour ago and no one is up at 2 a.m.

I am amazed by this.. I don't know how I _thought_ steel boats were built, but I guess it never crosse my mind they could be a home project

I'm waiting for the SV Melodaire blog


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Dude, you need a reality check. It is a huge project. Tens of thousands man hours. It is a very expensive project. Someone mentioned half a mil. I would say at least $300,000 to complete, with mostly your own labor, but you will need help. The boat is just too big for one guy to build. And you have problems with your back.
I see quite a few cheap steel boats out there that are outfitted but need to be refurbished, anywhere from 35 to 60 feet. If I had your skills, this is what I would do. Would take maybe a year or two and you are on the water, living large.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

overbored said:


> That is a very big dream. I am a builder/DIY by nature and have build my share of big projects and still building stuff but never a boat project that large. In my experience the best way to complete a project that large is to start building. The pictures of the build and the internet documentation are fine. making renderings can be helpful when planning mods to the original design but sticking to the plans will get you a boat built in the least amount time. Considering a build of this size will take 20 years to complete I would not plan to many mods to the original as they can triple the time to build. Then there is the money that will be required to build that large a boat equipped to sail the 7 seas. even if you use all good used materials and equipment a project of this size will cost a minimum of $500k.
> If you are a true builder you will spend the next 20 years building your dream boat at twice the price you could buy one for. if building is your dream then build, if sailing is your dream then buy a boat and sail.


I am not an amateur hobbyist, I went to school for welding and CNC machining and not only have I worked as a ship fitter but I used to run my own welding shop.

Instead of spending the next 20 years building this thing in my back yard, I am going to methodically plan and model it out, have all of the pieces CNC cut, and then I am taking 3 months off of work and my helper and I are going to get busy with it and get the entire hull fitted.

In those 3 months we are going to work 6 days a week on it, That is 780 hours. I think the hull can be fitted in that time.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

titustiger27 said:


> I was surprised no one responded to this.. but just realized it was an hour ago and no one is up at 2 a.m.
> 
> I am amazed by this.. I don't know how I _thought_ steel boats were built, but I guess it never crosse my mind they could be a home project
> 
> I'm waiting for the SV Melodaire blog


Check out SV Seeker on YouTube, Doug has built a 75' all steel Chinese junk in the last couple of years just working weekends on it.

Pretty amazing what you can do when you put your mind to it.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SV Seeker has been going on far longer than a couple of years...with very high costs in many respects - and a LONG way to go before she's done.

That's all I'll say.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

BigNickMontana said:


> == snip ==
> 
> In those 3 months we are going to work 6 days a week on it, That is 780 hours. I think the hull can be fitted in that time.


a lot of content howers there ...

:2 boat:


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

krisscross said:


> Dude, you need a reality check. It is a huge project. Tens of thousands man hours. It is a very expensive project. Someone mentioned half a mil. I would say at least $300,000 to complete, with mostly your own labor, but you will need help. The boat is just too big for one guy to build. And you have problems with your back.
> I see quite a few cheap steel boats out there that are outfitted but need to be refurbished, anywhere from 35 to 60 feet. If I had your skills, this is what I would do. Would take maybe a year or two and you are on the water, living large.


I do have help, my buddy Charles is going to build it with me.

As well I have my father who is going to help me build the interior, he has a really awesome carpentry shop that has about 3/4 of a million dollars worth of wood working equipment in it.

I fully expect this project to take anywhere from 250,000.00 to 400,000 to complete and a couple of years of working on it.

Also consider I have no debt other than my truck payment, which will be paid off by the time I start this project. I have no kids, no wife, and I am a disabled vet with a VA pension.

I fully understand this is a huge undertaking that is going to cost a lot of money, but I have been wanting to do this since I was about 10 years old. I am now 34, this is not a sudden spur of the moment decision to undertake this project.

I do understand there are several boats out there I could purchase and fix up, but that is not what I want to do.

I absolutely see where you are coming from but I have been preparing my whole life for this.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Best of luck, Nick. I admire your resolve and really mean it. Looks like you know what you are getting yourself into.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

krisscross said:


> Best of luck, Nick. I admire your resolve and really mean it. Looks like you know what you are getting yourself into.


Thank you and yes you are right I have thought it through pretty extensively, for me it was a choice, build a boat and live on it, or have a house, I am doing this instead of having a house and having kids and all of those other expenditures that keep most people from being able to tackle a project like this.

And even at that it will not be easy, but it sure will be fun!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

BigNickMontana said:


> ....
> 
> And even at that it will not be easy, but it sure will be fun!


Not easy, yes. Overall fun? I hope you still say that 2-3 years from now.

Ambitious indeed but you seem to have the tools and skills to pull it off if anyone can. But I still say your three year estimate is off by 100% or so - best case scenario.

.. and there's nothing wrong with that. Best luck!

Here's part one of a 6 part series from Denmark.. not a sailboat, but a similar plan to yours, all parts precut prior to assembly. It's worth your time to see how that all went.. some nice element in the final execution of it.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Bob Perry said some like there are those who like to build boats and those who like to sail boats.

Seems you like to build. Seems you have skill set one could only envy. I for one wish you the best of luck with your project. I would suggest getting a experienced boat builder involved if only as an consultant. There are a lot things and details that could make or break your project. Things like where to put the standpipes or sea chests and how to do it. How to coat, how to zinc, how to wire etc.

Agree with you if you like building it will be fun. Remember to plan in time to cruise and invite me for a day sail.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

Faster said:


> Not easy, yes. Overall fun? I hope you still say that 2-3 years from now.
> 
> Ambitious indeed but you seem to have the tools and skills to pull it off if anyone can. But I still say your three year estimate is off by 100% or so - best case scenario.
> 
> ...


Oh Awesome, I didn't realize Gustav had an english version! I had found other videos of his but Mein Deutsch ich NICHT gut!

Getting the hull welded out is not going to be bad, it is finishing out the interior I think is going to take the lions share of the time, wiring plumbing and all of that, the tanks as well.

That is why I want to have a full rendering before I start going to town on it so I have a plan of exactly how it will go together saving a lot of guess work and scratching my head trying to figure out where things go.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

outbound said:


> I would suggest getting a experienced boat builder involved if only as an consultant. There are a lot things and details that could make or break your project. Things like where to put the standpipes or sea chests and how to do it. How to coat, how to zinc, how to wire etc.


You are right on the money, there is little in this world more valuable than the advice of those who have done it before you.

That is exactly why I am here, I know power boats not sail boats. I have a lot of learning to do in that regard, and the advice I get here and the friendships I form out of that will go a long way towards shaping this project in a successful direction.



> Agree with you if you like building it will be fun. Remember to plan in time to cruise and invite me for a day sail.


You got it!


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

Faster said:


> Not easy, yes. Overall fun? I hope you still say that 2-3 years from now.
> 
> Ambitious indeed but you seem to have the tools and skills to pull it off if anyone can. But I still say your three year estimate is off by 100% or so - best case scenario.
> 
> ...


I have been watching the video, interesting they got the hull together in a month, not bad. I like that he is including lots of stainless surfaces, that will save a lot of painting, and his design looks solid.

There were a few things that made me cringe, like when they were lifting that piece of plate with a C clamp, that is just asking to have that thing fall and guillotine something.

Also when plating the hull they didn't weld any tabs on the lower plates to catch the upper plate they were installing which would have made things much faster and easier for them.

He says it took a month for him to construct the hull, that is pretty good time.

Really my biggest concern is not getting the hull built it is getting the boat rigged properly because this is the portion of the project I know literally NOTHING about.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

BigNickMontana said:


> I have been watching the video, interesting they got the hull together in a month, not bad. ......


... and yet it was a 6 year project til finished.

When the time comes you'll probably need to hire a rigger to supply and set up the rig. The plans should detail the chainplate/anchor points for all the standing rigging. The rigger (and later the sailmaker) can help you set up the rest.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Best of luck, this is a daunting project. I'm curious where you will build it? In a boat yard somewhere? I ask in the event it takes you longer than you estimate. I've personally known two people to attempt this. One failed, but one splashed a couple of years back. The success story was coincidentally also made of steel and worked on near full time. He was a stay at home Dad. Took him over 20 years. He doesn't sail it at all, he tinkers with it.

I'm not trying to discourage, only to encourage a contingency plan. A home built boat is going to be worth less than it cost to build, unlike a house. A home built that isn't finished and sea trialed is worth little to nothing, despite having invested a lot into her. 

Failure is not an option is the attitude to take, but I enourage a 'break glass in case of emergency' plan as well.

All the best on your project.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

Faster said:


> ... and yet it was a 6 year project til finished.
> 
> When the time comes you'll probably need to hire a rigger to supply and set up the rig. The plans should detail the chainplate/anchor points for all the standing rigging. The rigger (and later the sailmaker) can help you set up the rest.


I just got done watching the whole video series, and actually got a lot of good thoughts from it, one thing I see they killed a lot of time in doing was cutting the foam insulation to fit, then spraying great stuff around the edges, that had to kill a whole lot of time doing that.

I am investigating using corbond spray foam, I think it would save a guy so much time.

It would seem to me the most time spent on his project was getting the interior fitted out. Which with all of the custom wood working I am not really surprised by this.

The remote control he came up with for the boat is pretty neat. Looks like it makes single handing a breeze.

Also I'm wondering what it would cost to have a rigger rig the boat and to have sails made for it?


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

Minnewaska said:


> I enourage a 'break glass in case of emergency' plan as well.


You have some great advice in that, and really what I am doing here is learning the information I don't know, and putting together a punch list/plan of what it will take to actually build this boat, and from that I will develop a realistic budget and time line.

My experience in the past is with steel construction, for the size of the vessel when we shut down for 3 months using all CNC cut parts, I think working 6 days a week for 3 months I can have the hull completed and the windows installed, have it ready for paint if not painted.

The plan currently is to build it at my dad's place in Montana then to use my friends stretch lowboy to haul her to Seattle or Tacoma to put her in the water. Unless she is too tall then id haul her to Pasco and put her in there.

When she goes to the water I plan on having everything done but the rigging.

I have considered too that if I ever sold her id more than likely be upside down in her, but knowing myself I don't think I would ever want to which is why I want to build this design in particular, this is exactly what I want, and have for many many years.

It is a very good point to bring up though.

Ultimately I need to put a plan together and see how feasible that plan is after I have all of the information, at that point I will either get into it full steam ahead, or I will scuttle the whole thing and start on plan B which would most likely be buying a boat and getting it ready to sail.

Ultimately if I can do this though I am going to because if I can build this boat, and I can spend the rest of my life living on it and sailing it, I will be very happy with my decision.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

BigNickMontana said:


> ....Also I'm wondering what it would cost to have a rigger rig the boat and to have sails made for it?


Assuming you have the engineering and sail plans in the drawings you acquired, I would estimate the sails and standing rigging for a 55ft boat, with a mizzen, multiple headsails, chainplates and related winches and deck blocking to easily exceed $100k. More if they have to actually figure out what you require.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

Minnewaska said:


> Assuming you have the engineering and sail plans in the drawings you acquired, I would estimate the sails and standing rigging for a 55ft boat, with a mizzen, multiple headsails, chainplates and related winches and deck blocking to easily exceed $100k. More if they have to actually figure out what you require.


That is just a few pesos.

The full plan kit is supposed to have everything specified in it already finished out, I need to check and see on that.

I am a bit surprised at that number because that is almost twice what it is going to cost to build the hull.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

BigNickMontana said:


> .....I am a bit surprised at that number because that is almost twice what it is going to cost to build the hull.


The winches themselves are going to be several thousand dollars each. For a big steel boat, two masts and four sails, you're going to need a ton of them (approx 8, assuming only one on each mast) and big ones at that. You might want some electric or hydraulic winches for big sails, which triple the cost of those. My estimate assumed you would hand grind them all.

Not surprised about your reference to the hull cost. The hull should be expected to cost substantially less and be simpler to complete than the remainder of the boat.

Part of what is sky rocketing cost is the size boat you're planning. That 20 yr build I referenced above was in the 35ish range. A 55ft boat is close to 3 times the size of a 35ft, as they get wider, taller and heavier.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

You can save some expense by using deck organizers and clutches permitting fewer winches. Also put a block on your head boards allowing smaller winches for the boomed sails given the two to one purchase.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

A couple of thoughts about your project. We met someone who built a 54' aluminum cutter. He is a highly-skilled marine engineer (designer of the Rocna anchor among other things) so really knows what he is doing. It took 20,000 hours of work to do the boat - and it is a beauty. As someone said, there are lots of boats out there that you could buy and improve. You would save a lot of time and money going this route. To take just one example, do some research on how much just the winches would cost for a boat this size.

A final thought. You really don't need a boat this large for two guys and occasional guests. We found that the average size of boats sailing around the world was around 40'. We were on the higher side at 45'. You see the bigger boats in places like the western Caribbean where people are mostly living on their boats. You mentioned you wanted a separate cabin for your friend. The forward cabin would be largely unusable on most passages. This boat looks a lot better for use in port rather than underway - and yes you are at anchor a lot more than moving, but you are moving too.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

BigNickMontana said:


> I am a bit surprised at that number because that is almost twice what it is going to cost to build the hull.


General rule of thumb used to be the bare hull is around 10% of cost of completed boat in the water. I think Minnie's $100K estimate for rig, sails and sailing gear (BIG winches etc - that big a boat in ketch configuration is going to need thousands in line alone) is reasonable. It also puts your total likely costs at $500K minimum.. without the unexpected and the surprises.

You won't be getting the bulk discounts a volume builder would get for all the 'little things'.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

The Rig, Two Masts, standing rigging, running rigging, Sails will be very expensive. Unless you are making all this equipment yourself there will be other people involved so there will be a labor cost involved in this part of the project. Those costs are not going down in the near future and in a couple of years when you are ready for them the costs will be even higher. I see $150k easy at today's prices for the " Rig " on a 55' ketch using many used parts. A ketch rig is like buying rigging for two boats. Used parts take a lot of time to source and because you don't know what you will find out there it is hard to design and build other mating parts to fit. used parts will save some money but will cost you big in time to install. IF you buy all new parts spec'ed for the project the Rigs will be closer to the $200k mark


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## bob77903 (Nov 10, 2008)

BigNickMontana said:


> I have been watching the video, interesting they got the hull together in a month, not bad. I like that he is including lots of stainless surfaces, that will save a lot of painting, and his design looks solid.
> 
> There were a few things that made me cringe, like when they were lifting that piece of plate with a C clamp, that is just asking to have that thing fall and guillotine something.
> 
> ...


Here's another home build steel project.....

S/V Restless


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

bob77903 said:


> Here's another home build steel project.....
> 
> S/V Restless


This is an amazing one.. just a wee bit longer than 3 years....

Here's another (cautionary) tale of a steel boat plan that didn't quite go according to plan..


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

BigNickMontana said:


> You have some great advice in that, and really what I am doing here is learning the information I don't know, and putting together a punch list/plan of what it will take to actually build this boat, and from that I will develop a realistic budget and time line.
> 
> My experience in the past is with steel construction, for the size of the vessel when we shut down for 3 months using all CNC cut parts, I think working 6 days a week for 3 months I can have the hull completed and the windows installed, have it ready for paint if not painted.
> 
> ...


You're definitely one of the most rational people I've seen in thinking all this through and being willing to consider all the angles.

Because of that, I truly do hope you can figure out how to build this thing - and get her done fairly quickly and affordably - then go sail her.

She's a beautiful boat and that would be an incredible accomplishment and story.

Good luck brother.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bob77903 said:


> Here's another home build steel project.....
> 
> S/V Restless


That is a GORGEOUS boat...




























Wow. Talk about fair!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

smackdaddy said:


> That is a GORGEOUS boat...


Indeed... but again, 28+ years - although the workmanship shown here is not going to happen in a hurry.

Been a while since I read the whole story but IIRC the builder passed away shortly after launch/completion.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Faster said:


> Indeed... but again, 28+ years - although the workmanship shown here is not going to happen in a hurry.
> 
> Been a while since I read the whole story but IIRC the builder passed away shortly after launch/completion.


Aw that sucks. I found the story (lung cancer):

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...er-into-art/sCsAjWcR4eduE9KGTOde3I/story.html

5 years after launch. Still, an incredible accomplishment.



> "He didn't get to sail to the South Pacific," said his wife, Sandy, "but he built this wonderful piece of art."


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

Guys I have read everyone's responses and at the moment don't have the time to respond to you all individually.

I have one big question right now which is I would like to have an electric furler motor on the jib, which is a pricey piece of kit, with the double jibs as the plans call for, this would obviously mean id have to run two, would there be a big disadvantage to just running one large jib over the two?

The way the Lodestar is designed all of the winches are mounted to the cockpit, it does not appear as though any are mounted to the masts themselves. As it is setup the plan calls for 6 winches mounted around the cockpit, just trying to get a handle on how many id actually need.

I know with the 559 square foot Main Andersen recommends a 50 or a 52 series winch for that size of a sheet, the manual versions of that winch are running about 2795.00 each. Andersen 52ST Full Stainless Steel Winch | MAURI PRO SAILING

If I ran all 52ST's for whiches id have about 17,000.00 in them. Then later if I desired a couple could be converted to electrics.

I will get more into this later tonight and answering your replies when I get stopped for the evening assuming I have internet where I am at.


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## bob77903 (Nov 10, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Aw that sucks. I found the story (lung cancer):
> 
> https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...er-into-art/sCsAjWcR4eduE9KGTOde3I/story.html
> 
> 5 years after launch. Still, an incredible accomplishment.


Thanks for posting that Smack. I had no idea of his passing. I had talked with him a few times after the launch, and hoped to meet up with him with our boats in the Bahamas. I lost touch, but now I know, a good man, sad......


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

BigNickMontana said:


> Guys I have read everyone's responses and at the moment don't have the time to respond to you all individually.
> 
> I have one big question right now which is I would like to have an electric furler motor on the jib, which is a pricey piece of kit, with the double jibs as the plans call for, this would obviously mean id have to run two, would there be a big disadvantage to just running one large jib over the two?
> 
> ...


You need different size winches for different purposes. Our primaries are Lewmar 65s and the secondaries are 55's. Other winches for different purposes range from 42 to 48. Non-self tailing winches are fairly cheap to buy used but for any which that is used often you will want tailing winches, especially with a small crew.

You will want furling for the two headsails but may not need electric. We have non-electric and it handles our genoa which would be larger than either of your sails - but note we have 65s. With a ketch you could have one headsail but would need a removable inner stay so you could use a storm jib or staysail when the weather gets sporty.

You may not want to have all your winches at the cockpit. Halyards for sails that are on furlers (your two headsails and potentially a furling main to not to be adjusted very often and getting them out of the cockpit means less clutter. Also halyards that go through various turning blocks r not as efficient as those running directly to the masthead. Once you know a little more about it, talk to a rigger to get recommendations about how to set things up.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

There are multiple advantages to a double headed ketch. Especially for what he intends. It would be my choice.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

An amazing undertaking. You are looking at $500-600k. I wish you luck and a smooth build. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> You're definitely one of the most rational people I've seen in thinking all this through and being willing to consider all the angles.
> 
> Because of that, I truly do hope you can figure out how to build this thing - and get her done fairly quickly and affordably - then go sail her.
> 
> ...


I think it would be one hell of a story to be able to tell. We will see how it goes here but every day I work on this project the stronger my resolve is becoming.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

Faster said:


> This is an amazing one.. just a wee bit longer than 3 years....
> 
> Here's another (cautionary) tale of a steel boat plan that didn't quite go according to plan..


I have seen that, the initial story is a sad one, Phosgene gas is a real concern.

The 2nd owner really made a mess of that boat. I was horrified looking at some of the craftsmanship in that thing, I don't think that boat is good for much more than gunnery practice!


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

killarney_sailor said:


> You need different size winches for different purposes. Our primaries are Lewmar 65s and the secondaries are 55's. Other winches for different purposes range from 42 to 48. Non-self tailing winches are fairly cheap to buy used but for any which that is used often you will want tailing winches, especially with a small crew.
> 
> You will want furling for the two headsails but may not need electric. We have non-electric and it handles our genoa which would be larger than either of your sails - but note we have 65s. With a ketch you could have one headsail but would need a removable inner stay so you could use a storm jib or staysail when the weather gets sporty.
> 
> You may not want to have all your winches at the cockpit. Halyards for sails that are on furlers (your two headsails and potentially a furling main to not to be adjusted very often and getting them out of the cockpit means less clutter. Also halyards that go through various turning blocks r not as efficient as those running directly to the masthead. Once you know a little more about it, talk to a rigger to get recommendations about how to set things up.


Now that you mention it that makes perfect sense, and I have to realize as well that this boat was designed somewhere between the 60's and 70's when electric or hydraulic winches were not a thing commonly available.

I am definitely going to start looking for a rigger.


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## Rhapsody-NS27 (Apr 8, 2012)

Overall, I think this will be an interesting undertaking. I've seen the Glen-L site before and admire the work those boats that have been finished.

I'll look forward to seeing how the build goes. Start a blog for those interested can follow along. Or, just have a thread here and keep updating throughout your build.

Good Luck to you.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I do wish you the best. Glad your are recognizing that the hull, however arrived at, is the 'cheap and easy' part of the process. This is a project on a pretty grand scale. It may not seem so to someone used to working on larger vessels, but as a DIY boat build it's kinda epic.

Overland transport for such a large boat can get very complicated and expensive. Hopefully any place you secure to build it will be an 'extendable' situation to account for the many things that might slow the project down. You never know, and you've already indicated some physical limitations. An acquaintance was 10 years into a build (40 ft steely) when he fell either down a hatch or off a ladder. The boat is still incomplete now and up for sale - a tough thing to have to do, and a tough thing to sell to someone else.

Another good friend built a 45 foot GlenL trawler in wood/epoxy. Working fulltime he had it afloat in an incredible two years, with another couple to the final finish stage. That was the quickest DIY boat build (on that scale) I've ever heard of.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

Faster said:


> I do wish you the best. Glad your are recognizing that the hull, however arrived at, is the 'cheap and easy' part of the process. This is a project on a pretty grand scale. It may not seem so to someone used to working on larger vessels, but as a DIY boat build it's kinda epic.
> 
> Overland transport for such a large boat can get very complicated and expensive. Hopefully any place you secure to build it will be an 'extendable' situation to account for the many things that might slow the project down. You never know, and you've already indicated some physical limitations. An acquaintance was 10 years into a build (40 ft steely) when he fell either down a hatch or off a ladder. The boat is still incomplete now and up for sale - a tough thing to have to do, and a tough thing to sell to someone else.
> 
> Another good friend built a 45 foot GlenL trawler in wood/epoxy. Working fulltime he had it afloat in an incredible two years, with another couple to the final finish stage. That was the quickest DIY boat build (on that scale) I've ever heard of.


I understand all too well about accidents ending dreams. In 2001 I was in a car accident caused by a guy who was high on meth spinning out in front of me on the interstate, my face was smashed up pretty bad, got some brain damage, ended my career in the Navy.

Then in 2011 had another accident where I re injured my back when I was rear-ended.

So when it comes to working safe I am very on top of it. I actually lost a job because I refused to do something I thought was unsafe because it would put the lives of others at risk.

When it comes to building things in a hurry, I have completed several projects in mere months that take some people years or decades to complete.

I think what the special sauce there is the ability to hyper focus on the job at hand, when I get into a project I really care about, I will dig in carve out time to work on it and that is all I focus on.

When you can get into a project like that getting it done quickly is easy, especially if you have a solid plan.

When you only work a few hours a day on the weekends, well it can make projects take a lot longer because you are constantly switching gears.

That is why in a 10-11 hour day I can get done what some folks can't in a month of working on something, it is the ability to focus and stay focused.

By the same token when I can't stay on a project, it takes forever to complete.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Faster said:


> An acquaintance was 10 years into a build (40 ft steely) when he fell either down a hatch or off a ladder. The boat is still incomplete now and up for sale - a tough thing to have to do, and a tough thing to sell to someone else.


If it's the BS boat I'm thinking about, it's actually one of the most beautiful examples I've seen. Is it this one?

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/44465

In any case, someone will get a very good boat with that one.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> If it's the BS boat I'm thinking about, it's actually one of the most beautiful examples I've seen. Is it this one?
> 
> 2014 Brent Swain sailboat for sale in
> 
> In any case, someone will get a very good boat with that one.


Looks like it.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Friends don't let friends build 55 foot steel sailboats.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Nick - an old rule of thumb for the time required to build a boat is 800 hours per ton of displacement - you do the math. I know from experience that it's a fairly accurate rough measure.

Also, I would strongly recommend that you get better plans than Glen-L - they are mediocre at best. Check out Dudley Dix. I believe you can still buy steel plans from Ted Brewer as well as Groupe Finot - all have far stronger reps than Glen-L.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> SV Seeker has been going on far longer than a couple of years...with very high costs in many respects - and a LONG way to go before she's done.
> 
> That's all I'll say.


Yes, has been working on it for a lot of years and likely will never finish. Convinent that he is next door to the scrap yard, so at least they won't have far to drag it.



BigNickMontana said:


> I am a bit surprised at that number because that is almost twice what it is going to cost to build the hull.


I have read to expect the hull cost to be in the range of 10 to 15% of the cost of the boat to build. That is why any argument of what the best material for a hull is, is rarely won by using cost as a reason for it being better.


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## oldragbaggers (Dec 6, 2005)

bob77903 said:


> Here's another home build steel project.....
> 
> S/V Restless


I just got done looking at this guys entire gallery and man does he have some mad skills!! Unbelievable that he says he had never worked in wood before. His craftsmanship could rival anyone's anywhere. I almost had to laugh when I read what he said about the steering pedestal and "wanting to keep things simple." He didn't keep ANYTHING simple. I've never seen a higher quality build. Everything he did is first class and then some.

Twenty eight years sure is a long time though. It really gave perspective seeing his two adult daughters there at the launch and then seeing their baby pictures with the boat and him saying that there was never a time in their life when they didn't remember that boat sitting in their yard. Wow.

I hope they have many years of adventure aboard. They have certainly earned it.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

oldragbaggers said:


> ......
> I hope they have many years of adventure aboard. They have certainly earned it.


I guess you missed the part about the builder passing away 5 years after completion.

Not sure if the family still owns/uses the boat.


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## oldragbaggers (Dec 6, 2005)

Faster said:


> I guess you missed the part about the builder passing away 5 years after completion.
> 
> Not sure if the family still owns/uses the boat.


Oh my, yes I did miss that. And what a shame that is. Very sorry to hear it. I hope the family does use it because I would imagine that most of the memories they have of him involve that boat. I hope they do not resent the boat because of the hours that he spent with it. I would think that could be a real possible issue.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

SloopJonB said:


> Nick - an old rule of thumb for the time required to build a boat is 800 hours per ton of displacement - you do the math. I know from experience that it's a fairly accurate rough measure.
> 
> Also, I would strongly recommend that you get better plans than Glen-L - they are mediocre at best. Check out Dudley Dix. I believe you can still buy steel plans from Ted Brewer as well as Groupe Finot - all have far stronger reps than Glen-L.


What about Glen L makes them so mediocre?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

BigNickMontana said:


> What about Glen L makes them so mediocre?


Jon's right in that Glen-L screams 'homebuilt'.. but depending on the home builder that's not necessarily a bad thing. A fastidious, talented builder likely turns out a better product than many a production line. (see "Restless" stories above)

The bigger issue is probably the progeny of the design. They all appear to be 'in house' designs with no attachment to a recognized designer such as Brewer, Dix, Finot etc. One very possible side effect would be the devaluing of the boat beside a similar vessel with a proven pedigree. So the big risk is spending $500K on this project overall and ending up with a boat that would realistically fetch half that on the used boat market.

Bruce Roberts' designs would fall into a similar category - primarily for the homebuilder with highly variable end results.

Not an issue for you if it's your 'forever' boat.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

They have a rep for "modest" performance. I, and many others, also find them to be equally modest in artistry.

They are the home handyman version of boat designs - the kind of thing you'd find in the back pages of Popular Mechanics back in the 50's & 60's.

If you wanted to build a 16' runabout I'd say go for it but for a big yacht that will consume a significant chunk of your life and assets there are many better choices.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

miatapaul said:


> Yes, has been working on it for a lot of years and likely will never finish. Convinent that he is next door to the scrap yard, so at least they won't have far to drag it.


I have to disagree with you there, Doug may not be the finest craftsman in the world, something he freely admits but his first video on the Seeker was 4 years ago.

Now the Seeker may not be exceptionally sexy, and many of her welds are going to need a lot of grinding to look pretty, but I really admire Doug for his ingenuity and work ethic.

In my opinion oragami boat building is a bit mickey mouse, and I think slower. In fact I know it is slower than having a well detailed set of of plans and pre-fabing the smaller chunks and turning them into bigger pieces before attaching them to the hull, because the way he is doing it you have to make a lot more trips up a ladder and over the side.

But he has kept after it, and every week he posts progress videos.

I think eventually we will see the Seeker sail away.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

SloopJonB said:


> They have a rep for "modest" performance. I, and many others, also find them to be equally modest in artistry.
> 
> They are the home handyman version of boat designs - the kind of thing you'd find in the back pages of Popular Mechanics back in the 50's & 60's.
> 
> If you wanted to build a 16' runabout I'd say go for it but for a big yacht that will consume a significant chunk of your life and assets there are many better choices.


This is true, and well put. If you are spending all that money and effort on a boat, why risk not getting a great boat out of it. What you need is good third party evaluation, and that will be hard to find on a boat designed for home builders. At least with a recognized designer you have a better chance of trusting his instincts. On one who designs for the home builder there is always the aspect that he can claim you did not build to exact spec. Given the cost of design drawing is such a small % cost of the build it does not make sense to get a designed by home depot type design. I noticed on your evaluation of the boat, you mentioned you liked the layout, but not necessarily how the hull is designed to do what you plan on doing. The hull shape is what is most important and will have more impact on if you actually sail it or not. Seems most of these big steel home builds are more motor sailor than fully sailboat, and that defeats the reason you are building a sailboat.

It would be interesting to see what % of home built boats are actually completed, especially those built from the keel up, and not just owner finished. I think as the boat gets bigger your chances of succeeding get slimmer and slimmer. You (the op) seem to have the skills to do it, but time frame seems a bit unrealistic. Seems to me it would make sense to go smaller, but that is me.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

People build steel boats but it's a big project. Good luck.

sailing videos emerald steel - Bing video


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

That big Glen-L will displace 25 or 30 tons - at 800 hours per ton you are looking at 10 to 12 man-years of full time work.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

Guys I have put a lot of thought into this the last few days, and what I am realizing is how much at this juncture I don't know.

Certainly I have the skills to build and fit the hull, put a motor in her, and get her in the water. But as of yet I am not an experienced wind powered sailor.

I will say I was really attached to the Glen L plans simply for the reason my grandfather built the Glen L Sea Knight in 1962, and much of my childhood was spent on that boat in and out of the water. It was a happy place for me and filled full of warm memories, the rest of my childhood was lets just say not so great because of my mother and I moved out on my own when I was 15 because of her and have had nothing to do with her since and leave it at that.

I spent a lot of time with my grandpa growing up, he was into the boat and ham radio, really a neat guy he was also a musician he loved Jazz and the band he played in was the Mellodaires.

He died in 95 while I was down in Utah learning to SCUBA dive. With his death I lost who was then the most important and influential person in my life.

He gave me that Glen L catalog when I was about 10, and I spent yeas driving people nuts telling them about how I was going to build a boat from it someday. I promised my grandpa that I was going to build my boat and I was going to take him back to the Phillipines where he fought the Japanese in WWII with the 7th Army Airforce.










That was a big piece of the motivation for doing this project while I cannot take him, I was going to take the boat I built named for him and his picture back to Manilla if not just so my eyes could see the land his had back in 1943-44.

What I am realizing however is that in order to make this plan a reality I need to obtain much more knowledge about sailing, specifically the how to and about the rigging and I need some experience on sail boats before I build my own because there is obviously quite a bit I will learn from the process.

So the plan I am developing is as follows.

1. Make friends who have boats and go sailing.
2. Take sailing classes.
3. Read everything I can get my hands on. 
4. Set up a separate investment account and deposit funds monthly to start saving for the expense of rigging the boat.
5. Research hull design and pick a new set of plans. 
6. Build my boat.

As well in there I may buy a smaller boat so as that I can go sailing while I build mine, that is all still up in the air, and I think I will go ahead and do the 3D model the rest of the way out on this one just for the practice to get myself back up to speed on AutoCAD because I have been out of it for a couple of years.

I am considering that doing a live aboard for a while on a smaller boat would be beneficial because it would give me a lot of first hand experience and make the final product I put all of this time energy and expense into building a better finished product.

The other thing that is up in the air right now is my dad decided he is going to sell his house, so where I was going to build the boat I can no longer, so when I do this I will have to find a new location.

That may be at his new place when he gets his new shop, or I have considered that I may want to sell my semi once I start this project so I am free to finish it, and since I can get about 130,000 out of the truck, it would mean having a good deal of cash towards getting he project finished when I do, providing the truck is paid off first.

So that is kind of where my head is at right now.

I wanted to say thank you to everyone for offering me all of the wisdom you have, it has really helped shape my thought process.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

You have no idea how many people pop up here with similar ambitions (but often/usually far fewer skills) looking only for validation and rejecting any 'real' input that maybe their ideas are only half baked. Very pleased to see that you're not in that category and can take the info/suggestions offered here and take a step back and think things through one more time.

Your current 'plan of attack' makes good sense.

Not having a reasonably priced place to do the build will be a big drawback, esp in the event that things get delayed or take longer than anticipated. Can you imagine getting an eviction notice on a partially completed hull part way through??

Attempting to live aboard in a smaller boat for a while might make you realize that you don't need such a behemoth after all. One or two people can live quite comfortably on a well laid out 40 footer - many do so with less. Deciding on a more reasonable size (45 feet or less) will cut building costs, equipment, rig and operating costs and maintenance costs exponentially.

Or drop $150K on a Passport 40 and start the dream right away!


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

Has anyone ever noticed how often it's people who have never sailed that are the ones who take on large boat building projects. Not saying "all", just that non-sailor seems to be a common theme. 

People who want to sail go out and sail. And, people who are experienced sailors, simply know better than to build one themselves.


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## Daniel5715 (Nov 26, 2015)

Faster said:


> Indeed... but again, 28+ years - although the workmanship shown here is not going to happen in a hurry.
> 
> Been a while since I read the whole story but IIRC the builder passed away shortly after launch/completion.


At least he got to see it completed...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Much better plan Nick. I'd add a couple of things - if you can, get to know some people who are building or doing major rehabs of boats and help out if possible - that will give you some perspective on the process. Also, why not build a small Glen-L for the sentimental aspect and to gain some practical experience re: the time involved and so forth? I've often heard the recommendation to start with a dinghy and then, if you do move on to a big boat you already have the tender for it.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

Faster said:


> You have no idea how many people pop up here with similar ambitions (but often/usually far fewer skills) looking only for validation and rejecting any 'real' input that maybe their ideas are only half baked. Very pleased to see that you're not in that category and can take the info/suggestions offered here and take a step back and think things through one more time.
> 
> Your current 'plan of attack' makes good sense.
> 
> ...


I learned a long time ago if you want to become an expert at anything you find the people who have done it before you and listen to everything they have to say and ask lots of questions. It will save you from making a lot of mistakes and learning a lot of lessons the hard way.

I am pretty set on the size of boat I want, I almost committed myself to building an 73' twin screw diesel trawler for this project but then I started to consider the cost of having a pair of Cummins 6BT's turning 1750 rpm 24 hours a day making a year long trip around the world and I talked myself out of it.

It was going to be really cool though because I was going to build a door in the Transom that would have swung down and I could have loaded a couple of motorcycles in there.



















Would have been a really fun boat to have though.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

SloopJonB said:


> Much better plan Nick. I'd add a couple of things - if you can, get to know some people who are building or doing major rehabs of boats and help out if possible - that will give you some perspective on the process. Also, why not build a small Glen-L for the sentimental aspect and to gain some practical experience re: the time involved and so forth? I've often heard the recommendation to start with a dinghy and then, if you do move on to a big boat you already have the tender for it.


That is some very solid advice, and I have done such in the past, when I was in the Navy I spent my last 9 months in working at the base marina, there I got to learn the joy of painting bottoms, repairing fiberglass and rot, and all kinds of other joys that come with boats that are literally rented mules.

Even got to deal with one that had partially sunk at the dock. That was pretty interesting.

This spring ill be spending a lot more time out in Seattle/Tacoma, going to see if I can make some new friends out that way in the boating community.

It is a lot harder to make it out there in the winter months doing what I do because freight up there is just dead.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

Just curious but what do you guys think of something like this? http://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/boa/5443622783.html


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Dead link


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

SloopJonB said:


> Dead link


It was a 1985 Jeanneau Sunshine 38, listing is gone now and they did not repost.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I just gotta say, I have all kinds of respect for you Nick for working on the Blue Ghost. I've spent some awesome weekends on that boat with my two boys who were in Scouts.

You da man.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> I just gotta say, I have all kinds of respect for you Nick for working on the Blue Ghost. I've spent some awesome weekends on that boat with my two boys who were in Scouts.
> 
> You da man.


The Lex is a mighty proud ship, I feel very privileged to have been able to help preserve her history.


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## mahdee (Feb 2, 2011)

VERY TRUE, at least for me. I began building a Bruce Roberts 434, in steel, 21 years ago and in hindsight I would have bought a better designed boat for half what I've already spent. Hoping to launch this year. It has definitely kept me out of trouble but away from sailing.


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

mahdee said:


> VERY TRUE, at least for me. I began building a Bruce Roberts 434, in steel, 21 years ago and in hindsight I would have bought a better designed boat for half what I've already spent. Hoping to launch this year. It has definitely kept me out of trouble but away from sailing.


Would you care to elaborate?


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Building something that large is doable.But remember setting up the frames and plating the hull is the easy bit. Fitting out the interior takes time, lots of time. Had you thought about leaving the deck off until the interior fit out is complete.

See these two woman do it.






The sad thing is as far as I know they set off returned to port and never continued on. Probably had a big fright.

Look at the time scale. These woman knew what they were doing when it came to working with steel. It still took them ten years.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

Well yeah so this happened:


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Well - BAM!

Congrats dude. Welcome to the life.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

TQA said:


> Building something that large is doable.But remember setting up the frames and plating the hull is the easy bit. Fitting out the interior takes time, lots of time. Had you thought about leaving the deck off until the interior fit out is complete.
> 
> See these two woman do it.
> 
> ...


Cool video.

I have really decided the best thing for me to do is spend some time sailing, to learn to sail well, and then once I have a few years of doing it under my belt I can build my dream boat.

For now I have the Spencer 42 I bought. It will serve me well the next couple of years.

I was thinking of leaving the transom off until the interior was complete so a guy could simply walk up a set of steps into the boat instead of climbing up in and down.

You're probably right, sad to see so many dreams end that way.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> Well - BAM!
> 
> Congrats dude. Welcome to the life.


Thanks!


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## SV Avanyu (Aug 8, 2019)

Hello folks, Rick and Sarah here. We cant speak of the glen-l design, but we do own a Bruce-Roberts 47 ft ketch. Long story, we bought a hull and a powertrain. So we had to do electrical, plumbing, interior joinery, sail rigging, you get the idea. 
So based on our trial and error ( luckily the plans for ours us still available). Mast raw extrusions run approx $25/ lbs. The lodestar needs a mast approx 900 to 1200 lbs for the main. The mizzen is also around 500 to 600 lbs. 
We had ours made by selden, and while a good bit smaller, those numbers seem a good wag. Double the price for a completed mast. 
Electric or hydraulic winches, not on a 55 ft boat imo, unless you have manual backups. A proper sized 3 speed self tailer will be more than enough purchase with those loads. However those loads are too great to handle if you loose winch power or hydraulics. We have rollers on both headsails, and can hank on a storm if needed. 
If you have any questions feel free to PM us. 
Best of luck!


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I am a bit mystified by your comment, "Electric or hydraulic winches, not on a 55 ft boat imo, unless you have manual backups."
Aren't all electric winches manual with power assist? Our 65 Lewmar electrics are just regular old winches with an electric motor on the bottom. What "back up" do you imagine you need beyond a winch handle? When we put in the winch handle it disconnects the electric drive. Personally, I can't imagine sailing a 53 footer without electric winches (or hydraulic, if available?) at 72.
A good windlass is the same. Basically a manual windlass with an electric drive motor. When the electric fails you just put in a long handle (like a manual windlass) and you're pulling your anchor up.


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## SV Avanyu (Aug 8, 2019)

We actually have two electric secondary winches that do not accommodate a handle. I think they may be old andersons. Keeping in mind ours was made in 81. We did make the mistake of not having a manual back up windless, also rectified.


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## SV Avanyu (Aug 8, 2019)

Should have clarified. Are electric or hydraulic required? I dont think they are necessary, maybe a nice feature but those size winches in a power version are pricey. Figure 8 of them at over 10k each. We run 65s for headsail winches, 2 speeds and Sarah at 130 lbs and almost 50 can handle grinding on them. Granted based on the lodestar plan our Genoa is about 25% smaller.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SV Avanyu said:


> We actually have two electric secondary winches that do not accommodate a handle. I think they may be old andersons. Keeping in mind ours was made in 81. We did make the mistake of not having a manual back up windless, also rectified.


OK then, sorry. Our Lewmar 65s are also 1981.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Three of our winches are electric, the two primaries (65s) and one on the coach roof (48). We use the powered winch on the coach roof for any heavy loads and the non-powered for lesser. 

As mentioned by Capta, they take a winch handle too. However, I find they have a touch more friction internally than a non-electric winch. Still, you can and we have hand cranked them. I would not want electric winches I couldn’t operate manually.

I would never have a 54ft boat without powered winches. I have a buddy that had a 50, without powered winches, but sold that boat. Whenever wind conditions are so-so, it’s a no brainer for us to unfurl sail and pull it back in, if not working out. Done it hundreds of times. It was such an effort on his old boat, he motored twice as much as we do. He now has an even bigger boat, with hydraulic winches.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I wonder if he ever started building a boat, of if he decided the Spencer 42 he bought is good enough.

When he was in his optimistic phase he referenced Seeker:



BigNickMontana said:


> Check out SV Seeker on YouTube, Doug has built a 75' all steel Chinese junk in the last couple of years just working weekends on it.
> 
> Pretty amazing what you can do when you put your mind to it.





smackdaddy said:


> SV Seeker has been going on far longer than a couple of years...with very high costs in many respects - and a LONG way to go before she's done.
> 
> That's all I'll say.


I note that three years later Seeker is still not finished...


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## SV Avanyu (Aug 8, 2019)

It took us 3 yrs and about 150k doing the work ourselves. Counting sweat equity probably cost us 250k to build a 90k boat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SV Avanyu said:


> It took us 3 yrs and about 150k doing the work ourselves. Counting sweat equity probably cost us 250k to build a 90k boat.


I understand what you are trying to say, but obviously there was zero equity in the sweat. The cost of the parts alone was more than the value of the boat. The sweat provided no economic value, but hopefully plenty of enjoyment.

It was a very helpful stat to offer, as some think they can build a boat that will be worth more than the parts, let alone provide a return on their labor. Very rarely happens.


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## westerly winds (Jan 9, 2019)

SV Avanyu said:


> It took us 3 yrs and about 150k doing the work ourselves. Counting sweat equity probably cost us 250k to build a 90k boat.


The sweat gains infinite value when earned back as intimate knowledge of your boat. Which can save your ass quicker than superman.

How much is a mid passage repair worth, when computed as a service call?


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## alchahelic (Apr 22, 2013)

All the best with your project Nick.


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## BigNickMontana (Feb 17, 2016)

Minnesail said:


> I wonder if he ever started building a boat, of if he decided the Spencer 42 he bought is good enough.
> 
> When he was in his optimistic phase he referenced Seeker:
> 
> ...


For the time being I am sticking with the Spencer, I have sailed her a whole bunch, been doing a pretty massive refit on her, she turned out to be a really fantastic boat, should serve me well for years to come, although I am eyeballing what my next will be. 

I know after doing this my next boat will be new construction not a refit, most of my time has been spent undoing things other people did, or trying to figure out how to make things work, get access, etc, new construction would have been so much faster because there would have been an order of operations and I could have pre-solved so many of these issues by building in chase ways for wiring and pluming etc. 

The Lodestar is still on my list of boats I would like to build, although not entirely sure. I am feeling like if I am going to go through the effort to build a new one, probably going to have a design specifically put together for me.


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## StarTracker (Dec 26, 2021)

BigNickMontana said:


> I do have help, my buddy Charles is going to build it with me.
> 
> As well I have my father who is going to help me build the interior, he has a really awesome carpentry shop that has about 3/4 of a million dollars worth of wood working equipment in it.
> 
> ...


Better you than me! Food for thought: Most homebuilt projects seem to make it well past the hull stage. Few make it to the floating stage, including SV seeker mentioned above, and this happens in every material imaginable. There was a lovely wood sailboat of an excellent design near me that sold for about 5000$. There was probably 10x that in lumber alone into it. The owner laid the keel in the 60s, and had now realized he was too old/sore to finish. Another, a glass built factory hull is sitting in Alberta. Has been for many years, now down to about that price as well. Saw a nice Roberts built by hand, incredible quality of fit and finish and no expense spared components. Owner died. That is a common end to such projects. I used to joke that both car and boat builds have a commonality, it takes two people to enjoy them. The builder, and the person who buys and finishes it then goes sailing. The odds of both of those being one person are slim.
You have had a series of bad hands dealt to you so far, dealing yourself on purpose another strikes me as a peculiar choice. 
All that being said, if you go for it, I will certainly follow your project with great interest.
Marketplace 
is a good place to check out, one for the object lessons of others many years into the path you are considering. Also, many of the projects turn up for pennies on the dollar compared to even the material value, buying an incomplete boat of the right size then giving away the hull might be well worth it. One I considered doing that with was a beautiful mid 30' cruiser. Came with TWO engines, one brand new, tens of thousands in materials and hardware mast and rigging etc. I was considering parting it out, selling off the parts I didn't want and giving the hull away. I suspect I would have at least tripled my money, and gotten all the things I wanted for free in the bargain.


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