# 1977 Tartan 30



## bmacfarquhar (Jan 12, 2010)

I just got back from looking at a clean 1977 Tartan 30. I liked the boat on an emotional level. The mast and rigging looked in very good shape, the rudder was solid, the interior just barely cleared my head (when I took my shoes off I didn't have to bend my neck). Initially I thought I wanted a wheel for the romance of it but reading Roth and about self steering it seems a tiller might be simpler, more reliable and easier to self steer with.

Two things that struck me as possible cons on this boat:
1) Gasoline Atomic 4. Have read that Diesel is safe and Gas is not. I intend to go cruising in whatever boat I buy.

2) No transom ladder - if I ever get knocked off and am pulling in my lifeline it might be hard to get back aboard - I will be singlehanding most of the time.

Otherwise it looked pretty good. 

Can anyone comment on the Tartan 30? How safe for bluewater? How bad is having a gas inboard? Any common problems on these boats I should ask the surveyor about if I pull the trigger on this?

I was looking at a Hunter 36 for a similar price with no engine but this might be "the one"

I only want to do one survey if I can help it. All words of wisdom greatly appreciated.


----------



## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

bmacfarquhar said:


> ....
> Two things that struck me as possible cons on this boat:
> 1) Gasoline Atomic 4. Have read that Diesel is safe and Gas is not. I intend to go cruising in whatever boat I buy.
> 
> ...


The T30 is a classy classic racer/cruiser, you can't go wrong with that model if it's what your budget will provide. And there are still lots of A4s around and in use, not a show-stopper, if that's what the budget permits.

As to the stern ladder..not to worry about no laddder...if you go overboard you will not be able to get to one, assuming you actually devised a quick-release solution to enable deploying it from the water.


----------



## fordo (Jul 3, 2006)

I have a 78 Tartan 30 and its a good boat. The safety of the A-4 should not give you pause; just be careful about gas below. Make sure the tank does not leak, mine had been repaired when I bought it and is now fine. I understand that that is a problem with these. Have a mechanic go over the engine; it is old and may be tired. Get the Moyer marine manual if you buy the boat. Get a CO detector, CO is a greater risk than fire.

The PO added wheel steering... I wouldn't have, but a wheel is easier for guests. Only sailors have steered with a tiller...

SailingFool is absolutely right about the stern ladder. It is not a safety feature if you sail alone. Jacklines harness and strong leads will keep you aboard the boat, a ladder will only help if there is someone aboard to stop the boat and let it down, and only if you are awake and strong. A stern ladder is easy to install on this boat, however, so it shouldn't be a dealbreaker


----------



## bmacfarquhar (Jan 12, 2010)

To what extent is it stupidity to sleep in an enclosed cabin containing a gasoline system? Especially a 33 year old gas engine thats probably on its last legs. Somehow I am uncomfortable living in a cabin full of gasoline. I suppose a repower could be done to diesel at considerable cost. I could just run the atomic 4 until it dies and worry about it later. How common are fires from gas inboards?

I take it there may be a silence because no one has lived to tell the tale...


----------



## bmacfarquhar (Jan 12, 2010)

Fordo - how do you make sure the tank does not leak?


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Let's put the risk in perspective.

Do you ever drive on the freeway? You are in a vehicle constructed of combustible materials which emit poisonous fumes when burned, carrying 10-20 gallons of highly volatile fuel sloshing around in a tank held in place by metal straps exposed to salt crusted roads, surrounded by hundreds of other drivers in similar conveyances, all travelling at 65-75 mph... and you lived to tell the tale.

The best defense against fire is to ensure that you are on top of your maintenance. Make sure your hoses and lines are in good shape, your extinguisher(s) are charged and well -located, you have adequate exhaust blowers, and you know how to maintain your boat.


----------



## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

I'm not sure if some of the same issues could come up on the T30 you are looking at. My T27 is 10 years older then yours at 1977.
With the T27 issues come up with the chain plates as they were glassed into knee walls and the wood core can/will rot. Also, cored decks can become soft or spongy.
Our A4 is 10 years older then the one you are interested in and still running well. Maintenance on the engine is pretty easy and there is a great support group at: Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Powered by vBulletin
Sure, gasoline is more volatile then diesel but just using common sense and your nose helps. Run the engine compartment blower and sniff for fumes before you crank it. Diesel exhaust does not smell any better then gas and gasoline is a tad cheaper at the moment.


----------



## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

bmacfarquhar said:


> To what extent is it stupidity to sleep in an enclosed cabin containing a gasoline system? Especially a 33 year old gas engine thats probably on its last legs. Somehow I am uncomfortable living in a cabin full of gasoline. I suppose a repower could be done to diesel at considerable cost. I could just run the atomic 4 until it dies and worry about it later. How common are fires from gas inboards?
> 
> I take it there may be a silence because no one has lived to tell the tale...


I think you are over thinking the dangers involved here. Your tank is probably under your cockpit or at least behind a bulkhead in the after part of the boat. 
If you smell gas you need to shut off the main fuel valve. We do this every time we leave the boat. It's really about common sense and using your nose. 
I don't sleep on my boat as often as I would like but when I do I always have some ventilation (hatch boards removed, open ports and/or hatch). You would not want to sleep in a sealed cabin of a boat that had a diesel system either.


----------



## Nitefly (Dec 6, 2009)

I just went through this same thing a couple of months ago. I ended up getting the Tartan. Mine is a 76. I haven't put it in the water yet, so I can't comment much on your questions though.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

If the cabin is full of gasoline that would be a problem. But as long as it is in the tank it is not a problem. Most powerboats under 30 feet or so are gasoline powered and people sleep on them all the time as well as many sailboats. You certainly want ventilation when sleeping but don't need more than you would want without the engine. Before small diesels were common virtually all sailboats had either an A4 or Graymarine gas engine. Even the explosions that do occur usually happen during refueling and are the result of the proper procedures not being taken - blower on for the proper time before restarting probably being the main one. As long as the fuel system is in good shape there shouldn't be a problem. A stern boarding ladder can be installed easily but I agree best not to fall off while sailing.


----------



## bmacfarquhar (Jan 12, 2010)

Jacklines will be used a lot and I can just get a rope ladder for swimming no point drilling holes in the boat...

I am having a hard time coming up with anything wrong with this Tartan 30 I may go ahead and pull the trigger on it.

What do sailboat survey run these days? I got a quote for $20/ ft plus travel expenses - thats like $700!! I might just read a ton of books and do my own. The PO had a survey 4 years ago I can read through that report it seems he only used it about once a year and is selling it as he uses his powerboat and doesn't sail... I would do a survey at $10 / ft anyone know a guy who isn't so expensive in Central Jersey/ NY area?


----------



## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

Regarding surveys, most insurance companies will require one if you plan to insure. So if you are going to insure, you might as well get it before you put any more money into it. The quote that you got would certainly be high for this area but it may be the going rate where you are.


----------



## bmacfarquhar (Jan 12, 2010)

I'm hoping to skip insurance and get away from NYC as soon as I am confident in the boat and my abilities and head off down south on a cruise... There might be a month in the area but the PO said hes got insurance on it and will leave it on till I leave...

So the survey is not required. I will try and get a look at the report from 4 years ago. The PO works in the yard so he probably sees a lot of boats come and go and he maintains things well the boat was remarkably well kept. 

I always planned a survey but last time I was in the market for one it was $10 a foot - in the last 4 years the price doubled? I just e-mailed a whole bunch of surveyors hopefully someone is still reasonable.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Ifyou are planning to do a self survey, which most here won't recommend, here's a link that will help. http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/48177-boat-inspection-trip-tips.html


----------



## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

I doubt that any insurance company, even if it your homeowner's and automobile policy holders will insure your boat without a current survey of the boat. A lot can happen in 4 years since the last survey was done. Speak to your insurance agent first (who will know very little about marine insurance).

I suggest you shop around if you don't like the price. Try: Find a Marine Surveyor | NAMSGlobal
and 
The Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors, Inc.® - (SAMS®)
to find surveyors in your state and compare prices. It costs what they charge by and large. 
By all means do read up and do your own survey. No insurer will take your word for the status of your boat without another opinion however.
Having a gas engine is the least of your worries as when the monthly bills start coming in for winter and summer storage start to pile up they will cost much more then the 'survey' and the 'fuel' you have to buy. Oh, and you can forget about the 'entry fee' of the purchase price because the bills will keep mounting. 
The more you do for yourself the less you will have to pay but that does not include the 'survey'. 
Good luck.


----------



## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

bmacfarquhar said:


> To what extent is it stupidity to sleep in an enclosed cabin containing a gasoline system? Especially a 33 year old gas engine thats probably on its last legs. Somehow I am uncomfortable living in a cabin full of gasoline. I suppose a repower could be done to diesel at considerable cost. I could just run the atomic 4 until it dies and worry about it later. How common are fires from gas inboards?
> 
> I take it there may be a silence because no one has lived to tell the tale...


Like others have said, you're making a big deal out of not much of anything. If the tank is leaking, well, gas smells really bad... you'll know. Fumes are the issue. To put in perspective, there were thousands of boats powered with an A-4. Very few have blown up and/or otherwise killed their owners. You have a better chance of getting hit by a train and struck by lightning at same instant you win a Mega Millions jackpot. The bigger issue is looking into the cost of re-powering as your A-4 reaches the end of it's functional life.


----------



## bmacfarquhar (Jan 12, 2010)

I e-mailed about 50 surveyors and the cheapest quote is $450 from a guy who specializes in Hull Machinery and Cargo surveys. Not to say he won't know what hes doing he is accredited...

Calebd I realize what a money pit a boat can be I am planning to take off and sail for a long time - I wouldn't buy a boat just to pay for it while I worked. I am going to live on it and sail down to the Caribbean. I am not planning on insuring it at this time but it will have some insurance to begin with from the PO for a month into my ownership.


----------



## bmacfarquhar (Jan 12, 2010)

Back to the transom ladder I plan to be on moors and anchorages and do a lot of ferrying supplies by dinghy - I would think some sort of a good ladder is essential. Perhaps some sort of pulley system for hoisting supplies aboard? Maybe a platform at the base of the ladder?

To add a transom ladder will it require reinforcing the hull? I imagine drilling holes in fiberglass and bolting a ladder on is not how it works what is a safe strong way to bolt things on? Do I need like giant washers to ensure I dont break the glass?


----------



## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

You'll need more than washers. You may want to pick up some books and have them on hand while cruising. I would use some substantial backing when installing a ladder.


----------



## primerate84 (Jun 14, 2006)

On the survey question, I would not buy the boat without one. Even at $700, the surveyor may find a $10,000 problem you could miss. Unless you are getting the boat really cheap (really, really cheap), look at the survey as being part of your purchase/investment analysis. Knowing what you're buying is a good thing while you are out on the open water.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I understand you wish to save money on the survey but the surveyor you mentioned that specializes in hull machinery and cargo might be a bad choice. You want someone who specializes in fiberglass boats not container ships. This is not a place to be too cheap. All older boats have problems, every one and you want the surveyor to find them.This is where experience counts. The problems the surveyor finds are things to allow for in your final buying price.


----------



## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

*Insurance and Surveys*

Hello,

I keep reading that most insurance companies will require a survey. I can tell you that Allstate, who insures my house and cars, does not require a survey to insure a boat. I have had them insure two boats for me, and all they asked was make, model, year, HIN and MY value. I have liability and stated value insurance. The price was also much less than Boat US.

Barry



klem said:


> Regarding surveys, most insurance companies will require one if you plan to insure. So if you are going to insure, you might as well get it before you put any more money into it. The quote that you got would certainly be high for this area but it may be the going rate where you are.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The Tartan 30 is probably my favorite 30 footer of the early to mid-1970's. They sail well and make reasonably good single-handers for a boat of that era. They were reasonably well built, and the last few that I had been on seemed to be in very good condition for a boat of that age. 

I really think the whole fear of Atomic 4's thing is way over stated. They were reliable, easy to trouble shoot and work on and the parts used to be cheap and readily available. In the 48 plus years that I have been sailing, I have never actually heard of one exploding, but you need to take reasonable precautions. I have heard of lots of boats with diesels and propane exploding and no one seems to worry about that all that much. That said, as I think about it, I haven't had an At4 in a boat in nearly 25 years so at this point parts may have gotten harder to get. 

Under no circumstances would I suggest buying any boat of this age without a survey. With all due respect, in reading your (BMacFarquahar's) comments on this thread it is quite clear that you do not know enough to properly survey a boat and there are things that may not seem readily apparent on a boat this age that could cost several times what the boat costs to repair. Think of a survey as very cheap insurance. 

Speaking of insurance, i was curious about the Allstate comment and so talked to my Allstate rep. If they do not already have your boat insured, Allstate requires a survey on all boats 10 year or older. They will not insure a boat over 30 year old. 

Jeff


----------



## Filmsomething (Mar 15, 2006)

Every insurance company is different, Progressive insures my '83 C25 and it has never been surveyed.


----------



## tsuidc (Mar 2, 2008)

We have auto and house insurance with Allstate. They issued boat insurance for the initial purchase but to new it for the next year they require a survey.


----------



## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

bmacfarquhar said:


> I e-mailed about 50 surveyors and the cheapest quote is $450 from a guy who specializes in Hull Machinery and Cargo surveys. Not to say he won't know what hes doing he is accredited...
> 
> Calebd I realize what a money pit a boat can be I am planning to take off and sail for a long time - I wouldn't buy a boat just to pay for it while I worked. I am going to live on it and sail down to the Caribbean. I am not planning on insuring it at this time but it will have some insurance to begin with from the PO for a month into my ownership.


If you ask, " I live in _________ , and am looking at a __type of boat here____ Can anyone give me the names of a couple of reputable surveyors in the area? Like others said, the survey isn't a place to skimp.


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Here is a good place to start:

The Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors, Inc.® - (SAMS®)


----------



## bmacfarquhar (Jan 12, 2010)

I found a surveyor for $500 which I'll go for am waiting for the weather to warm up a bit to have it done. In the meantime I've been thinking about what I'll do to it if I get it and planning it out so that I can move quickly before its launched. Once in the water I'd like to leave NJ for good - not sure where I'm going exactly will explore for a while till I find a place I want to be. Would be heading South.

I would like to go through the Panama canal and hear you have to have 4 120 foot lines and running engine - any other requirements?


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I followed up on the Allstate discussion. Allstate has an office across the hall from my office and my BoatUS policy is near renewal. Here is what I found;
-Before they will insure a boat for someone who does not already have a boat insured with them Allstate will require a survey on any boat older than 10 years old. I already know that BoatUS requires a survey at least on older boats.
-They will not first insure a boat over 30 years old, but will continue to insure a boat of almost any age, periodic surveys required. 
-At least on my boat they were over 15% higher than my current BoatUs policy. If they insured my home and car, Allstate dropped to a little over 5% higher than my current BoatUS policy. If you have your house and car insured with Allstate and you do not have a claim-free record credit with BoatUS the prices gets very close together with BoatUS still slightly ahead.

The message that I take away from reading the various posts and my own experience on insuring a boat is to get quotes from multiple sources as the rules and pricing seems to vary.

With regards to the Panama Canal, here is a link to the rules for the canal although I am not certain that it is completely up to date. PROCEDURES FOR SECURING A HANDLINE TRANSIT OF THE PANAMA CANAL

I understand that you will need to hire line handlers. Its my understanding that you will need really good and long boat hooks, really heavy duty fenders and of course a minimum of 4 120 foot lines, and sturdily mounted cleats that are big enough for the minimum line size. I understand that, at least at one time, you could rent the docklines and fenders, which on a small boat with a tight budget like the Tartan 30 makes a hell of a lot more sense.

Here is a link to the Panama Canal Authority website. Panama Canal Authority - Official Site of the Panama Canal
Jeff


----------



## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

Jeff, thanks for following up on that. I guess my original statement that you would need a survey to insure is not always true.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

The Panama Canal fees as far as I can tell are $642 for a vessel smaller than 50', $450 "delay fee", which I guess is charged if you are not able to keep up in the locks, and a $50 measuring fee. In addition their is a cost to the linehandlers. But it's still a good value compared to the alternative.


----------



## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

*Panama Canal*



mitiempo said:


> But it's still a good value compared to the alternative.


For a small boat I think the alternative is to have the boat hauled, mast taken down, put on a trailer and shipped over the land. That might be cheaper and easier.

Barry


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

That wasn't the alternative I was thinking about. And I doubt trailering would be cheaper.


----------



## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

I own a T30 that has been in my family for 20 years. Some thoughts,

The A4 worked well and with some common sense is safe. The re-power with a 3 cyl diesel went well since engine access is very good in this boat. The original motor was raw water cooled and that was its fatal flaw in the end.

It is NOT a blue water boat. Although very solidly built the cockpit is huge, the scuppers small and there is no bridge deck. The motor and other critical bits are very low in the hull so get pooped once and you are in trouble, twice and might be sunk.

Unlike the the previous description of the T27, my chain plates are bolted to solid bulkheads and easy to inspect. Like many boats of this age they also leak so look for rust/rot.

My stern pulpit has a built in ladder that can be pulled down by someone in the water or a dingy. I think it was a factory option. It extends a bit below the water so might be usable if you go far an unanticipated swim, although I never want to test that theory.

The T30 is a good boat for a tiller. It is very balanced under sail so forces on the rudder are low. Even my very old low power autopilot can keep it on course.

The biggest problem I have with it is backing under power. All sailboats are bad at this, but with a smallish skeg hung rudder and a prop that sits just behind the keel it is an adventure every time. Some T30s have an extended shaft that might help, and a good 3 blade or folding prop (as apposed to my fixed 2 blade) might make a positive difference.

Hope that helps.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Install larger scuppers, add bridgedeck and storage locker in the well to reduce volume? Fairly easy modifications.


----------



## Plumbean (Dec 17, 2009)

mitiempo said:


> Install larger scuppers, add bridgedeck and storage locker in the well to reduce volume? Fairly easy modifications.


Probably cheaper to buy a different boat -- might consider a Yankee 30. Very similar to the T30 but if memory serves me they have a bridge deck and are considered to be decent blue water boats. Not many of them on the East Coast though.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

For offshore most of the boats mentioned would need larger or more scuppers I would guess, as does mine. The liferaft could be installed in the well to reduce volume.


----------



## bmacfarquhar (Jan 12, 2010)

It seems a bridge deck could be constructed from marine plywood - essentially a waterproof storage box at the front of the cockpit. The reduced volume might also negate the need for larger scuppers as there is less space to flood. Most of my sailing will be coastal but I dont want to leave the large cockpit unaddressed. (My rough idea is head down the east coast through Panama and then explore the North West coast of S America and on the way back the Sea of Cortez) The Tartan seems to have some good features for seaworthiness am reading Vigor's Offshore Seaworthy sailboat and it stacks up better than many other boats I'm looking at in the low budget end of the spectrum.

Anyone here tried making bridge decks? Would plywood, epoxy, maybe some glass at the seams or marine tex do the trick? Any ideas for a quick and dirty bridge deck much appreciated.


----------



## bmacfarquhar (Jan 12, 2010)

Perhaps a project something like this:

Bridgedeck Installation | Adrift at Sea


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yup... that was one project I did on my boat, since I couldn't convince the manufacturer to build the boat with one...  It has worked out quite well.. .



bmacfarquhar said:


> Perhaps a project something like this:
> 
> Bridgedeck Installation | Adrift at Sea


----------



## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

A bridgedeck build looks do-able on a T30. There are no lockers or other obstructions in front of the cockpit to get in the way on the starboard side galley model. The aft galley version has an icebox hatch in the area that might need to be sealed. Even a large bridgdeck would not reduce the total volume of the cockpit much so other mods may be needed, but a more experenced sailor than I could give you a better idea what total volume of open space is correct for a 30 foot boat.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

It's not so much the volume unless it's very large, but the drain time. I've read 30 seconds is about ideal. Plug the drains and fill it with a hose and time it to get an idea. If more drainage is needed, and I would guess yes, the easiest solution it to put a drain right through the transom. The Tartan has the well gainst the transom so it's pretty easy to install an extra drain. Only one side is needed as the main drains will handle what's left. With a flap over the outlet it shouldn't let water in.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Actually, it is both the volume and the drain time. If the cockpit is sufficiently large, it could cause serious problems. There is a recommended maximum size for a cockpit on a bluewater boat as a percentage of the boat's volume, but I don't remember what the formula is.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I don't think a Tartan 30 cockpit is too large for the size of the boat, especially with the addition of the bridge deck. That was what I was thinking when I said it was drain time not volume. I do agree a cockpit volume can be too large a percentage of the boat's displacement in some cases, a problem that is worse on smaller boats.


----------



## bmacfarquhar (Jan 12, 2010)

Well I tried to talk the seller down a bit and he told me he wont sell his boat to me and that I shouldn't contact him anymore which is weird but whatever some people get emotional...

So back to the drawing board I suppose I'd prefer a boat with a diesel engine and a wheel (though a tiller seems to be more seaworthy by most accounts).

Also maybe something a bit larger that Tartan was only the second boat I looked at anyway.


----------

