# Perfect 35-38 foot 'go anywhere' boat



## 3Reefs

Refining my shortlist (seems to keep getting longer!) for buying a 35-38 footer. My requirements in this order are: absolutely uncompromising seaworthiness; sufficient space for family with two small children on a circumnavigation; total budget of approx 100K; decent 'salty' looks. My standard for the seaworthiness is that she should be capable of a Cape Horn passage -- still a dream for us, but the option should be there. The flip side is we don't necessarily want a tank -- we want a sailing boat. On space, we need good forward cabin area for the children plus some sort of quarter berth though not necessarily a fulltime double since we parents will often be living out of the saloon. The budget means approx 80-85K for max purchase assuming that even a clean boat will need 20K in near term upgrades to rigging etc. The ideal would be 70K but for the perfect boat we'd go much higher. We are pretty traditional in sense large motor, lot of electronics, watermaker, freezer and other wizardry does not interest.

So here's my list. If anyone can comment would be MOST grateful.

1. Freya 39 (good ocean boat, problem is there are none about)
2. Valiant 37; possibly a blistered Valiant 40.
3. PSC37
4. Rafiki 37 (to my mind a superior version of the Tayanas etc. Good ballast/displ ratio plus there's no annoying bowsprit).
5. Wauquiez Pretorien 35 (really not beautiful, but SO capable and practical).
6. Bayfield 36 (good specs, not to mention pretty, but very little owner feedback out on the web, so hard to gauge).
7. Shannon 38 (certainly lots of good history, but looks something like a more expensive version of the Bayfield).
8. Morgan 384 (really good value and good sailing though I understand there are construction questions over the hull-deck joint and bulwarks).

So quite a range. I'm nothing if not open minded! Thank you again.


----------



## bogdog

southern cross 35 or 39. everything you'll need and in your price range if you don't mind a 80s model.


----------



## mitiempo

I think you list makes sense for the most part. The Shannon is more expensive for a reason as far as I know though. I think it is a better built boat than a Bayfield especially for the southern route. You don't say where you are as that will have some bearing on the boats available. There is a steel Freya in San Francisco for sale. Rafiki in Hawaii. PSC 37 or Valiant are excellent choices. Pretorien shouldn't be hard to find and many have been offshore. Not sure of the Morgan.


----------



## tempest

Of the vessels on your list, I would guess that you can find a number of PSC 37's to look at on the market. I had my eye on a few last winter...

I think your budget may be a bit low, for your goals

Here's another, not on your list but worthy...Passports.
There's one laying in Annapolis..now..

1985 Passport Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

That may...be this vessel...that did a circumnavigation a few years ago

Dream Catcher


----------



## jrd22

Bayfield has an active owners group, bayfieldyachts : Bayfield Yacht Owner Resources

I spent about 10 days getting my son's B36 ready to go offshore and then about 5-6 days crossing from FL to West End, Bahamas and on to Nassau via Berry Is. I was very impressed with the build quality and the sailing characteristics of the boat, and the space inside is really impressive. I wouldn't hesitate to take one on a major crossing, the off wind tracking by windvane is great. For a 36 with a full keel I thought the speed was very good and the motion comfort was superb even in 6' short waves coming from the aft quarter. Nice boat, easily handled.


----------



## quicksilver512

Here is #1 on your list. Initial cost is low............
Freya 39 Full-Keel Project Sailboat


----------



## Faster

A second vote for the Passport 40.... pretty, solid and a decent performer to boot.

In a similar vein:

Reliance 37 RELIANCE 37 Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com (units English)

Passport 37 PASSPORT 37 Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com (units English)

And here's a listing of pretty well all Robert Perry's designs...

Sailboat Designs of Robert Perry


----------



## MJBrown

Check the Tayana 37 as well.


----------



## lizardheadone

I liked your list but I would trade the Wauquiez Pretorian in for a Wauquiez Hood 38, which I think would be a much better boat for your purpose.


----------



## JohnRPollard

The list and other suggestions all represent good candidates.

One observation I have relates to your comment that you and your wife will be "living out of the salon." It's been my experience that this works fine for shorter duration trips, like weekends and 1-2 week vacations. But it does get old after a while. 

That salon space is the primary communal living space for the family, where all the normal daily routines/activities take place. When it does double duty as a sleeping cabin for half the crew, then your enjoyment of that space greatly diminishes. Not to mention the hassle of converting it back and forth, morning and evening, day after day after day after day...

My suggestion would be to focus on a design that provides at least two dedicated sleeping cabins (see for instance, the Passport 42 linked above), that allow privacy and compartmentalization.


----------



## 3Reefs

*The perfect 35-40 footer*

Thanks for all those suggestions. Noted and agreed with. The Southern Cross 35 looks a bit small (no quarter berth?) though nice. The 39 is a real possibility. There's an unprotected prop, but you probably can't have anything. The price looks right, as do the specs.

In the end there is bound to be some compromise and you have to compensate for that with your own flexibility and seamanship.

Re proper second cabin I agree this would be highly desireable, but it takes you to 40 feet most likely and the flip side of that of course is automatic higher costs than closer to 35 feet. I think a decent quarter berth would be a useful retreat even if not permanent sleeping cabin for two adults. Our last boat was a Contessa 26 -- yes, with two children and for weeks at a time -- so almost ANYTHING is going to feel spacious!

We are in NY, so mostly going to look in the NE and Maryland.

Saw those two Freyas, but want to avoid steel and a huge project. There are nice Freyas but they come up rarely...

Seems to me the PSC, Shannon and Valiant deserve their reputations but they are going to be old and the prices are possibly inflated, ie paying for the name. At that age it might be that some of these others, selling at 20K less, are no worse and, with the upgrades you're bound to end up doing anyway, might be just as good if not better.

There's a lot of boat in a 60K Rafiki, 70K Southern Cross or Wauquiez Pretorien...

Any more thoughts -- or EXPERIENCE -- about seaworthiness of Bayfields, Rafikis, Southern Cross or other less well known ones much appreciated.

Thanks again.


----------



## Allanbc

There is a Shannon 38 on Yachtworld in Texas. They are asking $99K for the boat. We looked at it but decided that it needed more work than we wanted to do. It has been on the market for quite a while so you may be able to make a low offer.


----------



## mitiempo

Here are a few interesting choices.
1981 Halsey Herreshoff /Marshall Marine Custom Cutter Sail Boat For Sale -
1979 CAL 39 (Short Rig/Deep Keel) Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
1979 CAL Cal 39 MK II Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
1981 CAL MK III Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
1985 Sabre MK 1 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
1982 Sabre Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
All allowing for upgrades within your budget - which any boat tthis size and price will need.


----------



## tempest

Decent price on the 1985 Sabre...if it surveys well...great vessel..

Sabre is celebrating their 40th year.


----------



## gr8trn

Hans Christian 38!


----------



## mitiempo

I would think any Hans Christian 38 in his price range would have teak deck issues though. A very expensive and time consuming fix.


----------



## emagin

Please look at the mother of all cruising boat spreadsheet I am maintaining (see signature)


----------



## kd3pc

sabre 38s are great several on the market at good prices...

shannon 38 available at Norton's ...in Deltaville, VA

dave


----------



## kwaltersmi

I keep a running list of my favorite bluewater boats with much of the same criteria you have, including price in the $50-$100k range. Here's what I've got so far:

Westsail 32: Good reputation offshore, plentiful, good value, roomier than most 32's, perhaps a bit slow and "tankish"

Cabo Rico Tiburon 36: Salty, Gozzard-genes, poor selection

PSC Mariah 31: Similar to W32 with perhaps a bit less room but better sailing ability

PSC 34/37: Good sailing performance, good looks, a bit cramped

Baba/Ta Shing/Panda 35: Beautiful Perry design with decent sailing ability, proven offshore

Halberg-Rassy Rasmus: Funky looks, a bit dated, roomy double cabin CC

Cheoy Lee Luders 36: Salty but not a great quality rep

Allied Princess 36: good value, more plasticy than others

True North 34: rare, similar to Baba's

Fantasia 35: Perry knock-off similar to Baba's, questionable build quality

Union 35: See Fantasia 35

Cape Dory 36: Beautiful Alberg hull, a bit small inside, good sailing

Hans Christian 33t/34: Beautiful boats, great pullman interior layout (2 cabins) with the 33t

Fuji 32/35/40: Gozzard-ish looking, quality rep?

Shannon 38: pricey but well-made

Pan Oceanic 36: Yet another Perry double-ender

Tayana 37: Classic Perry double-ender

Hardin Sea Wolf 41/CT 41/Island Trader 41/Yankee Clipper 41/Sea Tiger 41/Transworld 41: Big, piratey looking tanks, questionable build quality?

Niagra 35: Hinterhoeller design, unique layout

Dreadnought 32: Proven but antiquated

Vineyard Vixen 34: Rare?

Alajela/Ingrid 38: Beautiful classic, many w/ custom interiors

Island Trader 37: Roomy, offshore capable?

Islander Freeport 41: Lots of room and value, Perry design CC/deck saloon-ish

Mariner 32/40: Good value, proven offshore


If I had to pick just one of the above, with price not being an object, I'd go with the HC 33t. I love the looks, private cabins, shower, Pullman berth, full keel and canoe stern.


----------



## mitiempo

There are many factors that make a good boat and numbers don't always give you the best idea. The sail calc on the web doesn't work well when comparing different types of boats. Comfort factor can also be suspect. Displacement/length ratio as well is not effective in comparing different types of boats.


----------



## smackdaddy

emagin said:


> Please look at the mother of all cruising boat spreadsheet I am maintaining (see signature)


Great googley-moogley ema - that's quite a list. I'm dropping this into the Salt's thread.


----------



## sailingdog

No Alberg 37, no CS36T, no Southern Cross 35/39???



kwaltersmi said:


> I keep a running list of my favorite bluewater boats with much of the same criteria you have, including price in the $50-$100k range. Here's what I've got so far:
> 
> Westsail 32: Good reputation offshore, plentiful, good value, roomier than most 32's, perhaps a bit slow and "tankish"
> 
> Cabo Rico Tiburon 36: Salty, Gozzard-genes, poor selection
> 
> PSC Mariah 31: Similar to W32 with perhaps a bit less room but better sailing ability
> 
> PSC 34/37: Good sailing performance, good looks, a bit cramped
> 
> Baba/Ta Shing/Panda 35: Beautiful Perry design with decent sailing ability, proven offshore
> 
> Halberg-Rassy Rasmus: Funky looks, a bit dated, roomy double cabin CC
> 
> Cheoy Lee Luders 36: Salty but not a great quality rep
> 
> Allied Princess 36: good value, more plasticy than others
> 
> True North 34: rare, similar to Baba's
> 
> Fantasia 35: Perry knock-off similar to Baba's, questionable build quality
> 
> Union 35: See Fantasia 35
> 
> Cape Dory 36: Beautiful Alberg hull, a bit small inside, good sailing
> 
> Hans Christian 33t/34: Beautiful boats, great pullman interior layout (2 cabins) with the 33t
> 
> Fuji 32/35/40: Gozzard-ish looking, quality rep?
> 
> Shannon 38: pricey but well-made
> 
> Pan Oceanic 36: Yet another Perry double-ender
> 
> Tayana 37: Classic Perry double-ender
> 
> Hardin Sea Wolf 41/CT 41/Island Trader 41/Yankee Clipper 41/Sea Tiger 41/Transworld 41: Big, piratey looking tanks, questionable build quality?
> 
> Niagra 35: Hinterhoeller design, unique layout
> 
> Dreadnought 32: Proven but antiquated
> 
> Vineyard Vixen 34: Rare?
> 
> Alajela/Ingrid 38: Beautiful classic, many w/ custom interiors
> 
> Island Trader 37: Roomy, offshore capable?
> 
> Islander Freeport 41: Lots of room and value, Perry design CC/deck saloon-ish
> 
> Mariner 32/40: Good value, proven offshore
> 
> If I had to pick just one of the above, with price not being an object, I'd go with the HC 33t. I love the looks, private cabins, shower, Pullman berth, full keel and canoe stern.


----------



## kwaltersmi

sailingdog said:


> No Alberg 37, no CS36T, no Southern Cross 35/39???


Good suggestions, SD. The Southern Cross 35/39 are an oversite on my part. They make my list. The Alberg 37 (and 35) should also probably be on my personal "favorites" list. However, I find their age (1960's) and cramped interior as detractors, though my first love as a sailboat was a Triton.

I wasn't aware that the CS36 was a bluewater boat. They're a bit plain and non-salty for my taste, but may be worth a look for the OP.


----------



## mitiempo

Plain?

Maine Sail's CS36T


----------



## kwaltersmi

Hmm...maybe plain is the wrong wording. My taste in dream boats is mostly salty, teaky and double-ended.


----------



## SecondWindNC

mitiempo said:


> Plain?
> 
> Maine Sail's CS36T


drooool ...


----------



## Sanduskysailor

kwaltersmi, you seem like a sincere person and a lot of the posts reference a lot of good boats but really, with an itinerary going around Cape Horn you can't be serious. If that is a criteria, none of these boats fit it. If your plans are to go island hopping to the Bahamas down to the Virgins most all of the boats are good choices.

Otherwise your offshore trips require a lot more boat. Small kids might have a hard time when you get caught out which undoubtedly you will. Best suggestion is to try to get a crew position in the Caribbean 1500 rally held every November.Make the trip and then decide what your needs are. My bet is that your boat choice will be a lot different. Offshore Passage Opportunities - Volunteer Crew

Try to find a 35-39 foot Amel. Built in France and renowned for being well thought out world class cruisers. Hard to find in the states and styling is unique but hardly salty. A month in the tropics and you won't want to maintain the teak of a salty looking boat.


----------



## kwaltersmi

Sanduckysailor - I am NOT the original poster/starter of this thread and have no intentions of sailing around Cape Horn. 3Reefs started the thread and he/she is the one with plans for Cape Horn. I can see how you might infere that I'm the one asking about boats for the Horn, but if you read from the beginning of the thread it should all make sense.


----------



## Sanduskysailor

Oops. My mistake. Post was meant for 3Reefs. Thanks for the catch


----------



## drobarge

1976 Rafiki 37' Cutter-rigged Sailboat : eBay Motors (item 220527572055 end time Dec-22-09 14:40:08 PST)

don't think it sold


----------



## 3Reefs

Hi, it's me, the OP, 3reefs. I seem to have stirred a very small hornet's nest with the Cape Horn reference.

To clarify, I'm not specificially looking for a round the great capes racing boat or similar. I'm looking for a cruising boat that can operate on any ocean passage. No concrete plan for the Horn, but I imagine many of you might share my fascination and ambition for the place? So at some point...

Which means I'd like the boat I buy and invest in and grow into to be one that offers the option of making that passage.

Re my draft list of boats all being unsuitable I respectfully disagree. These are all strongly made, decently designed boats of 35-40 feet. Even smaller boats of very similar designs have made the Horn passage. IMHO, there can be no 'guaranteed' boat for extreme conditions, but a decent boat sailed with good seamanship is certainly qualified to make the trip. I think the exploits of the Pardeys and Roths in their very modest vessels illustrate the point perfectly. The Roths first adventured down in those parts in a small Spencer for goodness sake. Provided the basic boat is soundly designed and constructed, there's no reason you can't modify where needed and end up with a very tough ocean boat.

Thanks for the plenty of tips and ideas that have been coming.


----------



## Livia

3Reefs said:


> 5. Wauquiez Pretorien 35 (really not beautiful, but SO capable and practical).


Oh *SNAP*. Did you just call my boat ugly?

The Wauquiez Hood 38 mentioned earlier by someone looks like a slightly stretched Pretorien, of course larger interior, and is a dagger board keel (4' to 11').


----------



## hellosailor

"Even smaller boats of very similar designs have made the Horn passage."
You could probably make the Horn in a forty year old open Grumman aluminum canoe--IF THE WEATHER HELD. The big problem is, down there the weather doesn't predictably or reliably hold very good for very long, and then it gets bad, it gets terribly bad. Bad enough to sink any one of those boats, even with an "iron crew" on board and able to still function.


----------



## reillyjd

J40s and J42s have made the loop around the horn recently. Certainly a very different boat than a Pacific Seacraft or a Passport, but there is something to be said for moving that fast. There is a 1986 J40 listed for 99K.

Good luck. You have a lot of great boats on your list, and most importantly you have the dream.


----------



## mitiempo

I realize a J will be faster in the right conditions, but I don't think that much faster over a long distance in the rough stuff.


----------



## Sanduskysailor

3 Reefs- Obviously you have your mind made up. I stand corrected. No use arguing with some one who has never been off shore in the big stuff and has his knowledge from a book. Just remember one thing, the people you cite have far more experience and talent that most of us. They also are willing to accept risks and hardships that most of us find unacceptable.

Strongly suggest you get a crew spot for a real offshore passage before you plunk down your life savings and head off into the sunset. Experience has a way of focusing you on what really is important in a true offshore boat.

Here is a challenge, how many of the people recommending boats to 3reefs have been offshore in 25-35 foot breaking waves for extended periods of time? How many of you have dropped off said waves repeatedly. How many have broached and slid down 25 foot waves and then had a trailing wave break over the boat? Obviously these are 5% conditions but they can and do happen. Just go outside form Norfolk to the Caribbean and get in a freak storm and be in the wrong place when it hits. It happens all the time including last week, check the news.


----------



## mitiempo

As posted above any boat can round the Horn or sail in any other of the world's stormy capes on a good day. The trick is having enough good days in a row. Depending on the route taken a 50s to 50s Horn rounding can take 4 weeks or more. With gales at the frequency they arrive in this area you'll see a few without doubt. The Horn is as bad as it is because the fetch is great- in other words the wave pattern is unrestricted for thousands of miles and the gap it has to pass through is narrow. If you elect to go through the channels there are other problems to deal with, anchoring in great depths with 60 mph and stronger winds coming down the mountainside. The boat has to be rugged or you have to be very lucky - preferably both. And the boat is just part of the equation...


----------



## 3Reefs

Esteemed Sandusky, sarcasm becomes you. Of course, I'm sure your concern is well meant and that starting a fruitless argument was not your goal. I'm curious, though, how you so confidently discuss my sailing experience when we've never even met?

To put that to rest, here is my experience: approx 10,000 miles, nearly all of it on a Contessa 26 (now there's a real seaboat -- if only she was a whole size bigger!). I know 10,000 miles is not much by standards of many on this forum and quite possibly not by yours. That's because I haven't crossed oceans. What I've done is sail in all weather and a great variety of sea states around Europe, including a Biscay/English Channel single-handed crossing. This may not be Cape Horn experience, but I think I've earned the right to a bigger boat and bigger passages without bystanders making panic calls to the Coast Guard.

As for the Horn, I already repeated that it's not my immediate goal. I simply wish to apply that standard in my boat hunt. Then I would at least have the option one day. I might or might not be able to prepare myself personally for such an expedition. But I would like always to know that my boat would be capable. After all, I'm setting out to spend a good whack. I'll then pour more money, blood and sweat into her. So I'd like a boat I plan on keeping and improving and growing into. Not a boat with limitations in where she can go. 

The Horn reference just focuses my search. It gives an identity to my short list.

Of course none of the boats I can afford and have on my shortlist are IDEAL for high latitudes. A 60-foot steel monster probably would be ideal. But we're talking about dreams and possibilities here. I just want a boat in which the Horn would be feasible.

As I said, the Roths cruised down there in a Spencer 35. A Contessa 32 -- great seaboat, but uncomfortable and small below -- performed well rounding the Horn the "wrong" way. Clearly there is no right answer. All I wanted was to engage my more experienced bretheren in a discussion about affordable, well built sailing boats that can (at least on paper) be safely managed in extreme corners.

Not sure getting on a high horse is very helpful. All best at sea and on land to you.


----------



## jrd22

3Reefs- I agree with you that most of the boats on you list are capable of, and many already have, circumnavigated. And as you point out, many lesser boats are out there all the time quietly doing their thing on the worlds oceans. Properly set up, rigged, and helmed, I have no doubt that the boats on your list would survive the conditions that Sandusky described. Obviously it wouldn't be fun, nor comfortable, but nothing short of about 200' LOA is going to be comfortable in those conditions. I see nothing wrong in your plans, or your budget, for finding a capable blue water boat that will safely take your family almost anywhere you desire. The adage about the boat being able to take more than you can is generally true. Best of luck in your search, keep us informed.


----------



## swoosh

*Excellent 36 footer*

I think your list should include a Pearson 36' cutter. A comfortable, strong, ocean cruser. I have one, it is well equipped, in great condition and for sale in Connecticut.


----------



## swoosh

*Excellent 36 footer*

I think your list should include a Pearson 36' cutter. A comfortable, strong, ocean cruser. I have one, it is well equipped, in great condition and for sale in Connecticut.


----------



## Sanduskysailor

Well the Contessa 26, 32 are great boats and built right. Sorry for the sarcasm. I obviously made some assumptions about you that were wrong. There is a tendency on this forum for people to post about information they know nothing about. My only 2 offshore passage I made were long ones. I also have 17 Mac races under my belt and countless other passages on the Great Lakes. Ok it is the Great lakes but they still have 1000 footers sink there once in a while (Edmund Fitzgerald).
I experienced the 5% conditions once for 3 days and trust me none of the boats on the list would have made it without severe damage or worse. To wit, our friends left St. Thomas, VI 2 days after us in an Ericson 46. They were in the storm for 1 day. Their boat was well equipped with experienced (over 100 years) crew. In that one day they broke every bulkhead in the boat, the nav station came off the side of the hull and the cabin sole detached. 2 of the crew were hurt including a broken collarbone. The boat was write-off when they limped into Norfolk 8 days after us.

Our boat was a custom aluminum 55 footer with pilothouse. All up, it came in at 31,000 lb with a hydraulic lifting keel with 13,000 lead bulb that drew 10-1/2 feet. The boat was ready for anything which is great. 4 60 gallon fuel tanks with pumps and tank minder, 100 hp laser-aligned turbo diesel in watertight compartment. 2 under deck autopilots with with electronic rudder sensors. Boat construction was robust to say the least. Forward crash bulkhead, deck hatch to sealed anchor and chain locker, watertight bulkheads, ring frames, 2 longitudinal stringers. The mast, keel, and engine were securely bolted between the stringers.

The boat could be steered from inside the pilothouse which had a gimbaled helm chair and pilot berth to starboard. We had 2 EPIRBS, offshore liferaft, Satphone, weatherfax, SSB, 36 mile radar, generator, watermaker and a navigation computer. 

The boat was designed by the owner with a professional engineering study and constructed by a commercial boatbuilder in Canada. To say the least, we were prepared and the boat was ready for it. I would imagine the replacement cost would be $5-700,000. The owner ,because he did all the interior work and design work, had less than half of that in it. A true offshore cruiser that you could go anywhere with reasonable safety. Cruising range under power around 1200 miles at 10 knots. We made several 200 mile days which is great since you can sail fast enough to avoid a lot of bad weather. 

Our mistake was that we went with the weather which caused us to stay in the storm longer. Offshore weather off the east coast of the US can be very tricky. We had good forecasts which called for 25-35 knots. Unfortunately 3 low pressure systems joined together to make the sustained winds go to 45-55 knots. We incorrectly assumed that the Gulf Stream would not be a factor. Boy, were we wrong as the SE storm piled up waves against the south running eddies way east of the stream. Think English channel type steep waves with a fairly short duration that were 25 feet.

You will probably never experience the 5% conditions but if you do then you need to be prepared. Obviously you can navigate and plan your trip to avoid the worst but Cape Horn- yikes! Good luck in your boat search.


----------



## elfLogos

3reefs, if you haven't seen it already, you might want to check out this Union 36 on YW. Very salty - gorgeous boat, and in your price range:

1980 Union Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Good luck finding *your* perfect boat!


----------



## Sailor07

*Vagabong Westwind 38 "Eagles Wings" For Sale*

If you are still looking....do yourself a favor and check out the Vagabond Westwind 38 Cutter. Only 8 built! There is one for sale in Sarasota (Eagle's Wings).
I own one which is not for sale



3Reefs said:


> Refining my shortlist (seems to keep getting longer!) for buying a 35-38 footer. My requirements in this order are: absolutely uncompromising seaworthiness; sufficient space for family with two small children on a circumnavigation; total budget of approx 100K; decent 'salty' looks. My standard for the seaworthiness is that she should be capable of a Cape Horn passage -- still a dream for us, but the option should be there. The flip side is we don't necessarily want a tank -- we want a sailing boat. On space, we need good forward cabin area for the children plus some sort of quarter berth though not necessarily a fulltime double since we parents will often be living out of the saloon. The budget means approx 80-85K for max purchase assuming that even a clean boat will need 20K in near term upgrades to rigging etc. The ideal would be 70K but for the perfect boat we'd go much higher. We are pretty traditional in sense large motor, lot of electronics, watermaker, freezer and other wizardry does not interest.
> 
> So here's my list. If anyone can comment would be MOST grateful.
> 
> 1. Freya 39 (good ocean boat, problem is there are none about)
> 2. Valiant 37; possibly a blistered Valiant 40.
> 3. PSC37
> 4. Rafiki 37 (to my mind a superior version of the Tayanas etc. Good ballast/displ ratio plus there's no annoying bowsprit).
> 5. Wauquiez Pretorien 35 (really not beautiful, but SO capable and practical).
> 6. Bayfield 36 (good specs, not to mention pretty, but very little owner feedback out on the web, so hard to gauge).
> 7. Shannon 38 (certainly lots of good history, but looks something like a more expensive version of the Bayfield).
> 8. Morgan 384 (really good value and good sailing though I understand there are construction questions over the hull-deck joint and bulwarks).
> 
> So quite a range. I'm nothing if not open minded! Thank you again.


----------



## RainDog

kwaltersmi said:


> Cape Dory 36: Beautiful Alberg hull, a bit small inside, good sailing


Add the Cape Dory 40. Great boats.



kwaltersmi said:


> Pan Oceanic 36: Yet another Perry double-ender


You sure this one exists? I thought all the Pan Oceanic boats were Brewer Designs and 38 was the smallest. They are lovely boats.


----------



## mitiempo

I can only find information on 38',43', and 46' Pan Oceanics. All by Brewer.


----------



## zedboy

What about the Cascade 36?


----------



## Jeff_H

You guys know that this is a 13 month old thread and that the last time the original poster posted here was nearly a year ago. But also the guy was asking for a boat that wasn't just a tank -- but also a good sailing boat so something like Vagabond Westwind, or Cape Dory 40 or Pan Oceanic's would not exactly have been what he was looking for. Then again, some of the boats on his list would not have been either. 

Jeff


----------



## mitiempo

The Cascade 36 is a lighter boat - almost 4000 lbs lighter than the Cape Dory 36. It has a spade rudder without any skeg. It could be interesting but because some were owner finished quality will vary. 

From Sailboat Data:


----------



## mitiempo

But it's not an old thread anymore.


----------



## AliciaLavigne

I am the owner of a Rafiki 37 and have sailed around the world once and a half and have rounded Cape Horn with her. I can highly recomend her as a true bluewater cruising boat. She has plenty of storage space, large tanks for water and diesel, and is very comfortable in a big sea. She also is fast(that is relitively speaking) with any wind aft of the beam. I averaged 138miles on a 38 day passage covering 5252miles with many days 160-170miles per day. Solid and seaworthy.


----------



## DesertPirate

I agree with the notion of not living out of the saloon. When one narrows one's boat choice down to boats with two dedicated sleeping cabins, the list becomes much smaller, at least for boats under 100K.


----------



## CapnBilll

Jeff_H said:


> You guys know that this is a 13 month old thread and that the last time the original poster posted here was nearly a year ago. But also the guy was asking for a boat that wasn't just a tank -- but also a good sailing boat so something like Vagabond Westwind, or Cape Dory 40 or Pan Oceanic's would not exactly have been what he was looking for. Then again, some of the boats on his list would not have been either.
> 
> Jeff


It's a good topic. Why not keep it going? I'm looking for a good ocean crosser in the 35-38ft range also.


----------



## souljour2000

I just met a couple who have a Tradewind 35...doesn't show up on sailprocalc..just the 33...which btw shows over a 45+ comfort factor rating...and 18,500 disp.at 33 feet long!...jeez! & 7.09 kts for speed on the 33-footer also...what do folks think of the tradewind I am wondering..sounds like a tiger tank ...heavy and fast...anyways..I like learning about lesser known boats...tradewind yachts were definitely off my radar ...until today...


----------



## mitiempo

The displacement numbers of the Tradewind are comparable to the Westsail and other boats of a similar type. Heavy equals comfortable. 

But it is not fast. Speed on a displacement hull is nominally figured to be 1.34 x square root of its waterline length. This is the formula used on SailCalc. In other words any displacement hull with the same waterline length will have the same theoretical speed as the Tradewind - even a big old barge.

I am not saying it is a bad boat - more of a comfortable cruiser that has an easy motion and takes care of its occupants.


----------



## CapnBilll

Good point, heavier doesn't mean slower we all have the same speed limit. It just means you have to carry more sail to go same speed at same wind speed, but...a heavier keel means you can.


----------



## mitiempo

CapnBilll said:


> Good point, heavier doesn't mean slower we all have the same speed limit. It just means you have to carry more sail to go same speed at same wind speed, but...a heavier keel means you can.


Not exactly. Hull speed of a displacement boat is theoretical and can be exceeded if there is enough power to do so - either sail power or engine power. In lighter winds some boats can't reach hull speed because their sail area is too small for the conditions - this is common on some heavier designs. In heavier winds if they can't stand up to their sail area they may not achieve it either. This depends on stability, which comes from the keel as well as form stability of the hull. A wide flatter bottom will mean more stability before the angle of heel required for the keel to have much effect.

There are boats that sail well in a very narrow wind range. They do not move well in light air and can't stand up to the canvas needed in a blow.


----------

