# How far will a boat heal?



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

How far will a boat heel before it turns over? Or will it ever turn over by wind alone? Reason for the question is this weekend we were on Stockon lake in Missouri and we were running around 6knts when we were hit by a gust of wind that leaned us over 40 to 45 degrees acordding to our gage. This may sound alittle odd but we just started sailing about a month ago so we are truly newbies to the sailing world. By the way we bought a P26 and since we have not sailed on anything else I think this is a very nice boat to sail.


----------



## Culinary411 (Oct 20, 2006)

45 degrees really isn't extreme at all, but then again it depends on how much freeboard you have and the condition of the water. The rougher the water is the more chance of filling the cockpit at a 45 degree heel. 
Will the boat turn over by wind alone? Impossible. You can get a complete knockdown where the mast actually hits water, but to turn you over, the sail actually has to fill and roll you under, the wind alone won't give you enough momentum to roll. To sink you, the cockpit and cabin have to fill (depending on the boat again). Boats in general can take a much more serious beating than most people would think. Unless you put a hole in the hull or flood the cabin with a serious amount of water it will not sink.


----------



## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Assuming the hull doesn't take on water, most keelboats, including your Pearson, won't "turn over", but they could heel over in a screeching gust if the sheets aren't eased, maybe even to 60-70 degrees at the extreme. We call this a "knockdown" (notice I didn't say "knockout").

But it should have the positive stability and "righting arm" to recover once the sails are eased out, due to hull shape and the weight of the keel. 

You said you were "running"; did you mean reaching or close-reaching? If you were heading straight downwind, and didn't head up, jibe, or broach (or both), you shouldn't heel to 45 deg (and by the way, 45 degrees is going to feel like 70, like you're looking over a cliff).

A tip--0n a small boat in a knockdown, besides easing sheets and heading up to ease the pressure, the most important thing you can do is hang on so you stay on the windward rail. You don't want the weight shift (not to mention the chance to get hurt) of crew sliding or falling to leeward.

This past weekend I had students in a hot little keel sportboat on a breezy, puffy day, reefed main and full jib, beating to windward. We took a knockdown when a killer puff/lift hit, and the crew with the mainsheet didn't ease it. I dived to leeward into green water in the cockpit and let the jib out, then reached over and let out the mainsheet.

God bless the students, they all hung on to the windward lifelines, the helmsman hung on to the tiller and didn't panic or crash-tack, and we recovered right away, water drained immediately through the open transom, so we sheeted in and off we went. A useful lesson, really, even if unplanned. I'd just gotten finished answering for them the same question you asked, saying, "the boat will recover when you let it".

It did, and so will yours, even more so since it's heavier and doesn't rely as much on crew weight placement as what we were sailing.


----------



## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Sixty degrees a knockdown? I guess that depends on perspective when you consider I've sailed my boat heeled at 60* + (that's as far as the gauge went) for **(edit to quantify the following) long stretches of time ( no more than 15 sec at a time because she'd dump off the wind after that.) ** just because it was FUN! Now if I was sailing a larger, more complicated boat, I wouldn't take it that far. A knockdown to me is when the mast gets wet.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks for the responses. I'm just a farm kid that grew up in the midwest and sailing has always been something I wanted to do. Finally bought a boat so from now on there could be alot of silly questions coming from my computer. Just wanted to say thanks for the help and I'm sure there will be a ton of questions come up.


----------



## Denr (Feb 7, 2001)

Medical care givers heal, boats heel!


----------



## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

CharlieCobra said:


> Sixty degrees a knockdown? I guess that depends on perspective when you consider I've sailed my boat heeled at 60* + (that's as far as the gauge went) for long stretches of time just because it was FUN! Now if I was sailing a larger, more complicated boat, I wouldn't take it that far. A knockdown to me is when the mast gets wet.


Cool! To me, 60 feels like 90 (I'm trying to picture a ski slope at that pitch). And the skimming dish I frequently sail is beamy and low-slung enough that 60 would effectively take the rudder out of the water. And you'd have to go about 100 to get the spreader in the water.

No thanks ;-)


----------



## STARWINDY (Apr 20, 2007)

MoSailor, try this link. Its a bit more than you asked probably, but should give you a good idea of the nature of things. I remember when i first started sailing (in the North Sea, Ireland) and i can assure you...i learned real quick how to "ease the Sheet!! Soon you will get used to this and find yourself pushing things further. Best of luck.

Sail Magazine 2007 Buyers Guide: Stability And The GZ Curve


----------



## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

Was in a Catalina 25 and had a knockdown. The spreaders in the water for (thankfully) a short time. But most well designed sail boats would have to go to about 110 to 120 degrees before they roll over.
Then toss off you sheets and work to roll the boat back. Easy to do on day sailers up to about 21 ft. 
Have taught sailing and had my students do this with a Sabot... I know, I know a Sabot is only 8 ft. But I consider it training worth its while in that the students learn what to do on the larger boats that the San Diego Naval Sailing Club had at that time. This was is the 70s ( a day or two ago). What their training program consists of now I don't know.\
We did have rollovers with the daysailers but all where recovered by the boat's crew and there were no tow ins. That is while I was the Vice Commodore of Training there.
But if you are caught out there in stormy weather. Reduce sail. Button up the boat and all of those topside in lifejackets and tied to the boat.


----------



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

OHHHH My!!!! Jaysus, Mary, and Joseph, the Saints and Our Lady Of Fatima!!!!!!!! (All together at least 4 times)........

for now....


----------



## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

nolatom said:


> Cool! To me, 60 feels like 90 (I'm trying to picture a ski slope at that pitch). And the skimming dish I frequently sail is beamy and low-slung enough that 60 would effectively take the rudder out of the water. And you'd have to go about 100 to get the spreader in the water.
> 
> No thanks ;-)


Yeah, the spreaders are in the water about 90* on mine. No, I wouldn't drive a beamier, larger boat like that either. Matter of fact, I wouldn't drive mine like that in any kind of seas or weather conditions. This was on the lake in normal 2-3 foot chop. I did manage to spin out downwind though when the rudder came out. First time I ever snap rolled a boat. Spray everywhere. Some guy on a jetski thought it was cool. Said he'd never seen a sailboat do that before. I just told him "Neither had I". Oh, when other peeps are aboard, the limit I set is 35* before I either sheet way out or roundup and unload. Of course, when it's blowing dogs off'n the chains, it's not uncommon for a big puff to send ya to 45* or so before you can unload. Lotsa fun this sailing business.


----------



## labatt (Jul 31, 2006)

Something a lot of people forget about when heeling excessively or are heading towards a broach - dump the traveler. By the way, unless you are sailing a performance or race boat like Giu's, most boats will perform better at under 30 degrees of heel. It may be fun (sometimes) to be over at 45 degrees but you'll point higher and sail faster at something less (generally).


----------



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Not wanting to be accused of being a party pooper....










I've never sailed at 60deg, unless I was capsizing....in fact at 45 I start sinking, unless I close the companionway...

After 40 dgrees its no longer sailing, just like when we pee, after 3 shakes its no longer called shaking.


----------



## tomaz_423 (Feb 5, 2006)

"After 40 degrees its no longer sailing, just like when we pee, after 3 shakes its no longer called shaking"
True, but both can be fa lot of fun.


----------



## billangiep (Dec 10, 2003)

Thanks Gui. that pretty much sums it up three shakes or not...(grin)


----------



## Rickm505 (Sep 4, 2005)

*Some boats don't heel*

Some boats don't heel 

Rick in Florida


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I don't know of any boats that "sail" at 60˚ of heel. Most don't have a functional rudder at that point. Most also have serious helm problems at that point, since the center of effort is so far outboard. 

My boat doesn't heel*... in fact, if it is ever doing 20˚ of heel, I'm doing something very wrong...

*Technically, it does... a very limited amount... maybe 15˚ tops.


----------



## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

SD, come sail with me sometimes if we can coax some real wind up. Mind you, ya don't have much rudder to be sure but ya got enough. It's kinda strange, standing on the opposite cockpit seat leaning backwards to stand straight up. Of course, ya can't really hold it there for more than 10 seconds or so (seems forever) before the wind dumps off so where I said for long periods of time, keep that in mind. I didn't get her back up past 30* on that tack for sure.


----------



## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Not wanting to be accused of being a party pooper....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What's the beam on Giulietta? The beam on my little boat is 6.8' and she only weighs 1175 Lbs. so mine handles severe heeling much differently than yours. Like I said, you won't catch me heeling a displacement boat over like that. Hell, your keel probably weighs as much as three or four of my boat. The Catalina 42, Beneteau 32.2 and Cyclades 51 I sailed in 15-30 certainly handled heeling much different than mine. They'd just slowly roll to Leward and bury the rail deeper and deeper until either ya sheeted out or rounded up. Mine will only bury the rail so far and then it kinda floats on it's side. I pulled it all the way over at the dock once to service the masthead and the water line was about 2" from the companionway hatch edge. A displacement boat would have the water line about foot from the mast base because of the weight.


----------



## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

MoSailor,
When you reach the angle where your deck edge is immersed you are at the point at which the boat has it's largest righting moment. That is to say that the combination of buoyancy and weight/gravity are opposing each other the most, tending to "right" the boat. That is why she will recover from 45 degrees back to say 15 degrees more quickly than from 15 degrees to zero.

As your deck edge immerses, this "righting moment", a naval architect term, begins to decrease. That is because your center of buoyancy is moving towards your center of gravity at that point. This "maximum angle of inclination" is also known as the angle of diminishing stability, or deck edge immersion. We used to refer to similar behavior by seamen, when drinking, as their "maximum angle of intoxication" due to their likely loss of stability resulting in a collision with the deck or other gravitationally induced collision.(g)

This does not mean that your boat is going to turn turtle, or tip over, only that it's natural forces that tend to right it are diminishing. As mentioned earlier, the boat does not handle very well at this point with the rudder losing effectiveness, and the sail soon starts to dump wind "over the top". All that being said, it is not uncommon, and completely safe, to dip your deck edge while sailing. On most boats it's not the most effective point of sailing though, ie...slow.

Have fun!


----------



## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> Not wanting to be accused of being a party pooper....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Giu, have you tried putting shrouds on *BOTH* sides of the mast? It may help your boat from tipping over like that.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

bestfriend said:


> Giu, have you tried putting shrouds on *BOTH* sides of the mast? It may help your boat from tipping over like that.


 and attach them at the top.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Don't sailboats usually have spreaders on both sides of the mast too???


----------



## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

The short answer to "How far does a boat heel?" is: All the way til it becomes a fish habitat. For some that is a good thing.


----------



## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I thought we were going to stop picking on the Hunters for a couple of weeks...


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Mo, this is also why racing sailors will tell you to never cleat the main sheet--someone always should be playing it to gain the best trim, and ease the car (if you have one) or sheet to keep the boat upright in a puff. If you have a boom traveller, that's the "fine control" and you should be playing that constantly to keep the boat at top speed without letting it heel over too far.

Basically, the helmsman shouldn't be moving the rudder (tiller, wheel) more than a few degrees at any time, since putting the rudder sideways acts like a brake and slows down the boat. So, you want to trim the boat with the sails as much as you can (which gets into the whole business of everything on the boat affecting everything else<G>) and if the helmsman is using more than a few degrees of trim, it is his job to tell the guys on the sails to trim, or ease, as the case may be.
If I'm on the traveller and it is getting gusty and windy out, I'll make a point to ask the helmsman "How's it feel?" until we get a better feel of where they want the boat trimmed to.
Most boats sail fastest when heeled some 10-12 degrees or so. At 15-20 with one rail wet it can be fun--but actually SLOWER once you learn the geometry of sailing & courses. Beyond that, someone forgot to ease a line or reef the sails!<G>

Some boats will blow over, depending a lot of what sails are up, etc., while others will instead "round up" and come head to wind from the excessive force. That varies with the balance of the hull, the amount of rudder, a lot of things that you'd really need to do some book-reading to get a better idea of--if you're interested in it.

There area lot of fairly readable books on those aspects of boat/hull design and handling, although your local library probably won't have them. But these differences in how a boat handles are pretty much invisible from the dock, and part of the reason why you really need to sail on different boats in order to appreciate why folks love or hate the one or the other. Good boat design, even with computers, is still as much art and luck as skill.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> there could be alot of silly questions coming from my computer


it's a lot sillier to sit there wondering rather than ask for help. Don't get intimidated or offended by some of the responses, the regulars here can seem a bitter, tired lot but they actually appreciate the opportunity to communicate with someone new... 

One other thing... Multihulls - catamarans and trimarans - can heel. The larger ones try to avoid it - particularly trimarans. When they get to 90 degrees, they turn over completely. There are various terms for this. One is 'turning turtle', however the one favoured by most monohull sailors is 'getting their just deserts'


----------



## chris_gee (May 31, 2006)

Actually a keeler can overturn, which is why the angle of vanishing stability for offshore is set at roughly 130. It would require a substantial gust to do it since as the boat heels wind is lost from the sails. However buoyancy is also lost. Probably it is usually the combination of wind and sea. While uncommon it is not unknown even for a 360 roll.
I have also seen a keeler shipping water over the side to some extent for about 15 mins while making no headway against the tide. The wind was fresh but not excessive. While the water should have escaped through the drains it did not or not sufficiently possibly as the boat was not moving, and got below presumably as the hatch boards were not in, which would have worsened the heel with the water on the leeward side, until it went bow down as the water ran forward and it stood on its nose and went down in about five seconds. Hence the importance of adequate clear and double clipped drains, smaller cockpits and protected companionways, to say nothing of appropriate reefing.


----------



## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

*Heres a tidbit*

We took our Hobie Cat to a lake and were flying the hull, with much pleasure and delight, when this huge storm blew in over the mountains and caught us by surprise. Of course if we had checked the weather report, it wouldn't have been a surprise, but thats another story. Anyway, the wind picked way up and we turned turtle. It was so windy, in fact, that even with the low profile of the boat turned upside down, it blew us into shore. And guess what! The mast hit the bottom, the hull kept going, and the boat righted herself! Well, at least to 90 degrees, the rest was up to us. It just goes to prove that multihulls can be righted, with a little help. Of course, we were on the shore, but at least we could walk to the beer.


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

BF - you were saved because God had a higher purpose for you - he chose you to be a CS owner, your place in heaven is guaranteed.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sailormann said:


> BF - you were saved because God had a higher purpose for you - he chose you to be a CS owner, your place in heaven is guaranteed.


Yes, even heaven needs janitors...  Isn't that what CS owners become after they die...


----------



## Alden68 (Mar 21, 2007)

Don't forget as you look at a stability curve for a typical externally ballasted keel boat most boats lose their ultimate stability at around 110 -130 degrees of heel, with a maximum stability around 60 degrees. However, as the hull is completely blanketing the sail at around 90 degrees, the only force that can roll the boat further is a wave. Most boats have a very small negative stabiity area meaning that they prefer to be upright (unless it is a mutihull) And given that the boat is seaworthy and dogged down, the same sea state that rolled it will more that likely force it to roll back up and back into its positive stability range. When it comes up, hopefully you, your guests and your barbecue and solar stik are still on board! But in general a whole host of things have to go wrong for a large keel boat to roll over and 45 degrees, while not fun or fast is certainly not even testing the limits of what the boat is capable of in terms of staying upright.


----------



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Denr said:


> Medical care givers heal, boats heel!


Exactly.

Try as I might I have not been able to get my boat to "heal" anything without a visit to Dr. Worstmarine involving huge infusions of cash!!! ;-)


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, multihulls tend to be more stable upside down than rightside up...but they also tend to capsize less, since they have very, very high initial form stability. Ballasted monohulls also have a position of ultimate stability... that is sitting upright on the bottom of the ocean floor. Personally, since most of the boats out there don't self-right, I don't mind that mine doesn't. I would rather be on an upside down multihull, floating at the surface, than a rightside up monohull, sitting on the bottom of the ocean.


----------



## Alden68 (Mar 21, 2007)

As long as there are mounts for the grill on the underside of the amas I agree.....


----------



## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I really need to get some time on multihulls as I've never sailed on one.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Alden68 said:


> As long as there are mounts for the grill on the underside of the amas I agree.....


LOL, I thought CD would have said that... 



CharlieCobra said:


> I really need to get some time on multihulls as I've never sailed on one.


Just be aware that the motion on a multihull is quite different from that of most monohulls... also, some people who do not get seasick on monohulls, get quite sick on multihulls...


----------



## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Just be aware that the motion on a multihull is quite different from that of most monohulls... also, some people who do not get seasick on monohulls, get quite sick on multihulls...


Similar to jumping up and down with a pogo stick up your arse!

(Or so SD told me.)


----------



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Just be aware that the motion on a multihull is quite different from that of most monohulls... also, some people who do not get seasick on monohulls, get quite sick on multihulls...


 Are you referring to that nausea that sets in as the boat keeps yawing in irons while the skipper makes his 110th attempt to get the boat to tack in light air ???


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sailormann said:


> Are you referring to that nausea that sets in as the boat keeps yawing in irons while the skipper makes his 110th attempt to get the boat to tack in light air ???


This is a common misconception, especially among the more ignorant who have never sailed on a good multihull.... many multihulls tack just fine.

However, this problem tends to happen primarily with the high-windage full-standing room bridgedeck catamarans, than it is with trimarans, which tend to tack much like monohulls. These catamarans often have horrible light air performance and capabilities, and are designed more for the comfort of their interior than their ability to move under sail.

However, catamarans and trimarans can often out tack and out point monohulls... Ever hear of Dennis Conner's Stars & Stripes, a 60' catamaran that outpointed, out-tacked, and just plain out sailed KZ1, a monohull, to take the America's Cup in 1988.


----------



## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

Here's the real test for stability.

globeandmail.com: Skipper goes bottom up to prepare for around-the-world race


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Way cool...check out the video accompanying the article!


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Vasco-

I believe that may be a requirement of entering the race he is going to be in. I believe some of the more recent races, which have boats with canting keels, are requiring the captains and crews of the various boats to show that they can be righted by using the canting mechanism on the keel, due to their fairly high inverted stability caused by the very broad beam and flattish hull profile.


----------



## Vasco (Sep 24, 2006)

Sailingdog,

You're correct. I guess they got tired of all those boats floating bottoms up in the southern ocean.


----------



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

They have been doing that test way back since the times of the Whitbread and the Maxi 60's...way back, not now because of canting keels.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Giu-

I don't think the boats used in the Whitbread and the Maxi 60's were quite as stable as these new beasties at staying upside down.


----------



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

SD yeah....pretty much they were. Appart from lenght and a few differences in design of the bows, and sterns (of course canting keels also), there is liitle difference. I look at Yamaha and Corum back then...not much different, really.

Back then if I remember correctly, the time limit to self right was 2 minutes. I don't know what it is now.

I remember in 1995 seeing a Maxi 60 do that test near my marina (wasn't built then), and it did not stay upsidedown more than 30 seconds.

The boats then and now are pretty similar in terms of shapes of deck, beam etc.

The new volvos have less beam than many whitbreads and maxi's.


----------



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Ok, so I will ask, and yes I am serious:

THere was no stick on that boat. Why wouldn't that act as a lever to keep him bottom-up?

- CD


----------

