# New Member (in need of a few opinions :) )



## Ogele (Aug 9, 2012)

First, sorry if this is the wrong section or annoying... but continuing on:

Hey there guys, pleasure to be a newbie on Sailnet and if you guys could be so awesome to give your opinions on a few things, I'd love that!

So I'm a youngin' now (highschooler) and am not in any state to "sell it all and cast off the lines" now, but that's definitely in my future! (Or well, that's what the dream is. Cruising for my life as a freelance writer)

I am in need of some opinions though, mostly on the boat type. 

I know most people around here are either strictly Sail or strictly Power, but I can't seem to decide. I've been on both, but I haven't gone long distance on either. I can indeed drive a power yacht and as far as sailing goes, I am quite proficient (even winning an award for my performance in a regatta (Dinghy racing in a 420 dinghy).

I can't seem to decide between the two boat types for my future boat! 

If I go sailboat, I'll be traditional and do what everyone else does for sailboats. Though, if I go powerboat; I'm ditching the big engine and going electric engine. YES, I know this is significantly slower than power, YES, I know it'll require lots of solar panels and wind generators, but low maintenance and virtually free movement is a BIG ++ for me! 

Pros and cons (that I know of) for both:

Sailboats -
Pros:
- Theoretically more seaworthy (lower c-of-g, more ballast, etc. I don't know for sure, this is just MY theory, so please correct me if I'm wrong)
- Virtually free movement with sails
- Quiet operation
- A little less expensive
- Faster
- Virtually unlimited range due to virtually free movement

Cons:
- Not much room
- Requires more energy to sail than to "push the throttle"
- Significantly more maintenance due to having all the rigging and sails to maintain

Electrical Power Boat-
Pros: 
- More room per foot of LOA than sailboat
- Virtually free movement and unlimited range
- Much lower maintenance cost
- Easier to drive

Cons:
- Not as seaworthy (in my theory)
- Slower
- A little more expensive

Keeping in mind that both boats will be under or around 40' and for one male (and maybe a feline/canine companion) and that ocean-crossing capability is preferred (but not mandatory. I don't mind island hopping at all), which boat would you choose to live on?


----------



## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

That's like asking for opinions on which supermodel to date. You need to decide whether you want the blonde or the red-head. I also grew up on powerboats and raced 420s. I don't live aboard, but nothing is better for me than getting out on the water, hoisting the sails, turning off the engine and trimming the sails.


----------



## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

Electric power is nice but all the power generation you will need won't come cheap.
A better alternative (if you go power), is a single diesel trawler style boat. One with a slow turning, low HP Perkins or Ford Lehman diesel. They go a long ways on a gallon of fuel.


----------



## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Do the math on electric power. You will not be able to generate enough power to keep moving without regular recharge from shore power (and your range will be limited).

Electric can be a decent auxilliary power option for getting in/out of harbour.


----------



## Michelb (Aug 9, 2012)

In my opinion, the most important factor is what do you really like to do? What do you prefer? Sailing and motor boating are two different worlds. You make no mention of the joy of sailing such as working with the elements (wind, current, weather ..) to go further and faster. Motor boating is definitively better if your aim is only to go for Point A to B.


----------



## Ogele (Aug 9, 2012)

Oh wow  Four replies rapidly, thanks for all the support guys!

@jsa 
Yes, I also love the feeling of being pulled by the wind and heeling over; and trapezing is a hell lot of fun too! (Even if it's useless on these keelboats  )

@chuck

Yes, I have also considered going diesel or gasoline power, but the boat's going to have to be pretty amazing to make up for the fact it has very limited range, and, if I run out of fuel unexpectedly in the middle of a big sea... Well, that's bad uke Though trawlers interest me. What makes trawler's different from normal cruiser powerboats? I hear trawlers are usually more seaworthy, and that's a big deal to me. Why are trawler's more seaworthy? 

@zed

Yes, I have done the math and found that the electric motor will consume more power than will be given. Though I will NOT have to recharge at dock (the beauty of wind generation and solar generation), I will not be able to 24/7 motoring. And that is OKAY! I don't mind having some downtime here and there seeing as I'm getting my movement power 100% free and with low maintenance. I am aware of the limitations of electric, and I don't mind them.

@Michel

I do indeed have a love for sailing! But realistically, seeing as this will be a liveaboard, I also have a love for more space per-ft of LOA, and I also love not being at the mercy of the wind. And realistically, seeing as most cruisers say they spend 90% of their time at anchor, the sailing wont be all that prominent... Plus I enjoy sailing small 420's far more than sailing large keelboats, so really, I could go either way as it even's out.


----------



## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

Where did you hear that trawlers have limited range? They are built for long range but let's back up...what are your cruising dreams? What kind of range are you looking at? With proper planning, you will never run out of fuel.
Are you going up and down the coast or planning on crossing the Pacific?
What you are planning on doing with your boat will greatly alter the answers you need.
Seems you are concerned with the economy of travel. If so, and you are planning on putting lots of miles on that boat, you want diesel, not gas.


----------



## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

Big question....what kind of budget are you planning on?


----------



## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Ogele said:


> Yes, I have done the math and found that the electric motor will consume more power than will be given. Though I will NOT have to recharge at dock (the beauty of wind generation and solar generation), I will not be able to 24/7 motoring. And that is OKAY! I don't mind having some downtime here and there seeing as I'm getting my movement power 100% free and with low maintenance. I am aware of the limitations of electric, and I don't mind them.


Typical goal of whatever solar/wind combination is to keep up with a limited amount of electronic toys in a day's output - not recharge a huge bank of motor batteries (which will be drained in just a few hours' motoring time). Unless you plan to stop for a week (during which you consume no electricity) after every part-day's travel ...

Nothing (yet) beats dead dinosaurs for energy density.


----------



## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Ogele said:


> First, sorry if this is the wrong section or annoying... but continuing on:
> 
> Hey there guys, pleasure to be a newbie on Sailnet and if you guys could be so awesome to give your opinions on a few things, I'd love that!
> 
> ...


How about melding both worlds into an electric sailboat!
Then when your electric motor malfunctions, in the middle of the Atlantic, you can still sail by wind.

Being totally dependant upon a motor is a real "con" amongst the comparisons you built.

Good luck, and fair winds!


----------



## Ogele (Aug 9, 2012)

I go away for lunch and come back to replies, amazing 

@chuck

I heard nowhere that they are limited range, and have heard that they are very seaworthy. The thing is; diesel. Diesel is limited range; sail and electric are unlimited as a sail just needs winds and electric just needs energy (that can be harvested from winds or solar or hydro), meanwhile diesel just cant be "harvested" from the ocean (unless I want to carry an oil drill and refinery on my boat... Is that possible  :laugher ) 

My cruising dreams? Well it'd be a legitimate liveaboard (keyword in the compound word: LIVE), I'd spend my life on it (god willing it lasted that long.) It would go cross-ocean and everything. I don't intend for it to be able to make a full 100% circumnavigation without stopping, but ocean-crossing ability would be very nice. 

Budget? Well, I think it might be easier to tell a little future planned, as that might help. 

(currently going into gr 11), Gr11-12 = Grad Highschool. After highschool, four years in the Canadian Navy (as either an electric tech, engine tech, or hull tech.), in which I will save every dime I make and should have ATLEAST 100k saved. After the Navy, I will go and get myself some free college education for writing (and/or graphic art and/or medical transcription) to be a freelance writer (and/or freelance graphic artist and/or medical transcriptionist. See the pattern? Looking for jobs that ca be done freelance over the internet). 

So starting budget would be about 100k. Yearly, atleast 1000/mnth + depending on how much I work. 

As you can see, the starting budget and monthly budget isnt that high, so I'm trying to keep diesel to be an auxillary mode of propulsion just in case my primary breaks down.

@zed
Respectfully, I do not think that at all. There are blogs, testimonies and many other written experiences of people happily chugging along on purely electric motors, being perfectly fine off just solar and wind regeneration. 

@Doug
That was also an option, but fact of the matter is, sails need maintenance too (moreso than elec motor), and sail systems do indeed break (in my experience to a lesser degree, and other peoples' experiences to catastrophic degrees). As far as a "backup" goes, I will always carry some kind of outboard with me (whether it be elec or diesel) to get me out, if the sh*t ever hit the fan. 

Also, an elec sailboat kind of takes away the main virtues of both. It takes the electric motor away from the extra desired space of the powerboat, and vice versa.

Note, I will be carrying three kinds of propulsions at all times no matter if I go powerboat or sail. For sail, I will have sail, elec, and diesel, taking up slots of either Primary, Auxillary, and Emergency. For powerboat, I will have either Diesel or Electric being Primary (strongly tilting towards elec), and the latter being Auxillary, with Emergency being an outboard Elec or Diesel (Redundancy is key!  I got a backup for me backup! And I'll carry a paddle!)


----------



## Ogele (Aug 9, 2012)

Yikes! I forgot a number! I ran the numbers more times than I can count, but for some reason, the number just hit me now...

So what I've been proposing is that it takes usually about 2kW per ton to move that ton any reasonable speed (and that's even a little low as usually more power would be required, but electrics are constant torque as opposed to a power curve of a ICE, so let's say 2kW is reasonable), and now let's assume that my boat would be atleast 6 tons (12k lbs? Sounds realistic. Low-ish, but realistic.)

So here's the step I missed for some reason: 6*2kw= 12kW

That right there... I don't know how I missed that; I could easily power 2kW, but 12kW is hard... It'd take a LOT of solar and wind power... In reality, during perfect conditions (high wind and high light), I would only be able to generation a couple kW/hr, not enough to make even a 50% run time of the elec motor.

I can't do this yet :/ The tech isnt there. The blogs of everyone else who is doing it is either a sailboat/electric, weekend powerboat, VERY lightweight and not suitable for liveaboard, MUCH larger and can fit TONs of batteries, or something else about it that slots it out of my purpose...

Sorry zed, you're correct, I missed something... 

Looks like I'll be back to sails, unless there is some diesel combination that is ridiculously economical... If anyone knows of a ridiculously fuel economical diesel build, go right ahead and let me know :laugher

Sorry about the mishap guys, my math was off, and while the possibility of 100% electric and non hybrid engines is coming; it isnt there yet


----------



## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

What do you consider to be ridiculously economical? Give me a number in miles per gallon. We need to know your thought process because what you are looking for may already be easily attainable or totally not possible.


----------



## Ogele (Aug 9, 2012)

Thanks chuck for offering to help me out.

Well first, I can't really give you an MPG, because if you give me such an open ended question I'm gonna say something crazy like 20 MPG :laugher So just tell me the best MPG that would be possible by a seaworthy trawler that would fit a male comfortably 

My thought process?

Well I like unlimited range, so that leads me to sailboat.
Though I also like lots of space per LOA, so that leads me to the powerboat/trawler.

So it was either I get a sailboat big enough to have comfortable space for me, but that was unlikely as the bigger you go, the more expensive EVERYTHING is, as well as sailing bigger boats is harder and more stressful than small boats.

So I went to see if I could get an unlimited range trawler, and electric seemed good, but not possible (yet), so I guess I'm going to have to either A: Find a diesel trawler with spectacular MPG, or B: Find a sailboat with a suitable interior.

As far as my interior "preferences" go, I could SURVIVE without going insane on a design like the Dana 24 (but that'd be too much like camping and not comfortable...). I could be quite comfortable on a 35' fishing trawler (I went on one today, and it seemed pretty decent. I mean, fishing trawler meant most of the space was dedicated to the fishing duties, but if the space was redone for liveaboard, it'd be comfortable), and I guess my absolute maximum level of comfort would be in a design like the Beneteau Sense 43. 

Though the Sense is not really rated as "seaworthy", and it's expensive, and would be a little too big for me to sail comfortably singlehandedly (I get more confident in my sailing abilites with the smaller the boat is... Is that weird?)

Basically looking for either super range in a trawler, or big sailboat interior (with good interior design) in a small sailboat.

And must be seaworthy and affordable of course!


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

jsaronson said:


> That's like asking for opinions on which supermodel to date. You need to decide whether you want the blonde or the red-head.


Once you go ginger, you never go back.

Ogele, welcome to the board and thanks for a well written, well thought out first post.

As a general rule of thumb, power boats give you space, sailboats give you range. if you want to go broke cruising, cruise in a SeaRay. if you want to cruise on your income as a freelance writer, you're gonna be sailing.
A LOT.
Which is cool, because IMODPO, air conditioning, shorepower and water heaters are highly over-rated... 
Background- my wife and i and our dog largely live aboard our 23' sailboat during the spring summer and fall. It's as fun and fulfilling as you wish to make it.


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

if you like sailing and like trawlers, may I offer a compromise?

1975 Fales 32 Navigator Pilothouse Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


----------



## Ogele (Aug 9, 2012)

Brilliant! That's almost perfect! (It's just a bit small  ) I didn't even know that a sailboat/trawler existed (I mean, I'm sure I've seen them before... I just never thought of them for some reason...). 

Is there anyway to filter for these particular kind of boats? Are these seaworthy?


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

Yes, yes, i am brilliant, thank you for noticing.
(Now would you please convince some of the other ingrates around here who think i have "that attitude"? Apparently there is a bounty on my head and a shoot on sight order on the Chesapeake for some reason.)
Search for a fales navigator, a willard vega horizon, or a fisher 25, fisher 30, fisher 32, etc. The boat wil be seaworthier than you are, for coastal cruising, the bahamas and short carib hops, perfect for the PNW, the great loop and the ICW.


----------



## Ogele (Aug 9, 2012)

Uh... I don't know what half of those acronyms mean  Can any of them cross oceans? That's all I wanna know xD and thanks for the names, looking into them


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

PNW= pacific northwest
ICW= IntraCoastal Waterway


----------



## Ogele (Aug 9, 2012)

Ah... Not exactly ocean-crossing... Though this type of seems perfect... I wonder if there's a ship that's ocean-worthy and a bit bigger... That'd be perfect 

Edit: Ah that's what they're called! Motorsailers!

Now if only I could find a Motorsailer that sailed really well (as I see most are about 50%/50% or mostly power with a secondary being sail. Seeing as my primary power will be sail and secondary will be power... And also, if only it were a bit bigger  )


----------

