# Tablet Navigation as a backup?



## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Which tablet and what programs would you recommend for use as a backup navigation? US and Central America area. Pros and cons to other backup methods? Your help is much appreciated.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

I have MX Mariner and Navionics Carib and Pacific on a Galaxy Tab A 10".
I'm blown away... Love it.
Have it a protective frame, also have a clear seal bag for it. Bought 10' cables to charge.

Have 2 Garmin plotters with charts, one a swing-out, but I bet I'll be on the Tab more than one of the plotters. 

There are many people using tablets as their main plotter.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

If you’re going to be in weather have an issue with any type of tablet as backup. If you drop them, bang the face into a sharp corner or they get wet you’re up the creek without a paddle. Have lifeproofs on ours but even that isn’t 100% foolproof. So even though both my wife’s and mine have navionics on them still carry a small handheld Garmin with a wrist leash. Store it inside a tin box in case of side flash from lightening strike. Also runs on simple batteries and carry extras. So if we have no power we still have navigation. Not a big expense <$400 with full charts for our travels. Would note we also carry a plastic Davis and reduction charts but that’s just for kicks and giggles as it’s likely if our electronics go down we won’t have the time or interest to be messing around with celestial.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

outbound said:


> If you're going to be in weather have an issue with any type of tablet as backup. If you drop them, bang the face into a sharp corner or they get wet you're up the creek without a paddle. Have lifeproofs on ours but even that isn't 100% foolproof. So even though both my wife's and mine have navionics on them still carry a small handheld Garmin with a wrist leash. Store it inside a tin box in case of side flash from lightening strike. Also runs on simple batteries and carry extras. So if we have no power we still have navigation. Not a big expense <$400 with full charts for our travels. Would note we also carry a plastic Davis and reduction charts but that's just for kicks and giggles as it's likely if our electronics go down we won't have the time or interest to be messing around with celestial.


Likewise here. I carry an iPad with charting, but also a Garmin Oregon, which is waterproof (but doesn't float). The Oregon has seen salt spray in the cockpit, but I would never put my iPad out there under those conditions. Also, I can put the Oregon in a drink holder, facing the helmsman. Ordinarily I trust the fixed mount Raymarine chart plotters to do their thing, but one time off Newport, the master Raymarine locked up and obscured the display on the second Raymarine. The fix was simple--a factory reset--which I could have done on the spot (if only I had known or called Raymarine support on the cellphone at the time). In any case, I pulled out the Oregon to verify position and bearing to waypoint while maintaining dead reckoning in the background, including checking with Eldridges. I would have easily found Pt Judith harbor of refuge without electronic assistance, but it's always good to exercise backupsl now and then.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

If you do get a tablet, make sure it has gps.
Some don't.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

RegisteredUser said:


> If you do get a tablet, make sure it has gps.
> Some don't.


Yes, that is an obvious requirement, but is there a difference in quality of GPS data and/or issues related to interfacing with navigational software? I know some sailors prefer iPads and I'm sure there are reasons why.


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## estopa (Aug 17, 2010)

Make sure it has a real GPS receiver built in. I just picked up a unlocked Galaxy Tab e 8 for like $100 on ebay to run navionics as a backup. I was also looking for a Asus Zenpad. Usually the ones that you can run a data from a wireless carrier has GPS. Google GPS specs to find out if its location service is GPS.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Tablets are great - either as a backup or a primary...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Bye - the zero sum poster is on this thread. Once again posting a cut and paste. Once again adding nothing from personal experience or knowledge. Once again trying to create an adversarial environment for his amusement. Although this may be functional in a tort case many have no interest in living like that. Our lives are not your court room where one wins and one loses. Rather we strive to cooperate with others freely admitting our ignorance where appropriate and sharing our experiences and knowledge.
I hope that the mods realize the number of people who leave this site due to the adversarial tenor created by SD.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I've needed to use my iPad as backup. My chartplotter got it's brains scrambled and flipped the chart 180 degrees. Weirdest think I ever saw. It showed my vessel pointed the opposite direction and all commands were backwards. Once powered down and backup, it never did this again.

In any event, I was motoring out of an unmarked cove in Maine, where we had snaked our way back into one of the nicest, most secluded anchorages I've ever been in. Rocks and depths were on the plotter and iPad, but you still motored at 1-2kts with a keen lookout on the bow.

My iPad was open and had the entry crumb trail on it, so I just followed it back out. I could not go below to power everything down in the moment.

There are several nav apps for the iPad and I can't review them all. As a backup, I'm very pleased with Charts and Tides. It does primary navigation, with the added bonus of having the entire ActiveCaptain database downloaded into it. I use it way more often for AC than I do for nav, although, I will do some passage planning with it too (ie measure distances, check for anchorages, etc). I chose it initially, because it's relatively inexpensive. Although, even the most expensive nav app isn't too pricey.

I also have an old school handheld gps aboard that does nothing more than give Lat/Long. Trying to think of the last time I checked to see if it works.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

The common issue with using many tablets outdoors is that many have displays that totally wash out on anything but the cloudiest of days. Perhaps some of those tactical sunglasses might help (the one's you see on TV where they amaze folks with what appears to be a washed out white screen which has a colorful pic of an Eagle and the American Flag popping out at you when you put their glasses on) with that however if you have trouble viewing the screen on a device out in your yard or outside in a parking lot it likely will be trouble on the water too during the daylight hours. 

Something to consider when deciding about using a device (CellPhone/Tablet) as a plotter/navigation aid primary or backup. I have with some made shadow boxes out of flat black plastic and such to help resolve this when using some devices on my motorcycle but that by no means was the perfect solution.


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## oldlaxer1 (Mar 27, 2008)

I used an Ipad 2 for a year without much trouble and then upgraded to an Ipad Pro because I'm kind of a digit head. It is better in the sunlight but I can't say I had much problem with the Ipad 2. I have no dodger or bimini and with tiller steering there is no good mounting place for a fixed plotter or the ipad. I keep my Iphone in my pocket running a different plotting app as a secondary backup. I tend to look at both during a trip. The one issue I have found is you can't let them get overheated or they will shut down. Mostly just keeping the ipad covered when not is use is good enough. I've never had an issue with the iphone in my pocket. To date, I've not dropped either one but recognize it as a possibility. I have the lifeproof case on both the Ipad and Iphone. I travel relatively benign areas of the Chesapeake Bay so YMMV.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I don't use all the complex features of a network plotter. I do enter a single waypoint to determine heading info... course to steer and so on.

I began with a small hand held Garmin PDS gps plotter iQue. I founf it's heading line was all I really needed... and I could take the thing in my pocket to land... it had street nave and so on. Very cool.

I picked up a B&G plotter which has replaced the little iQue in the cockpit. Then came Navionics app for my smart phone. That's more than enough. The tablet has it as well... but I prefer the smaller format/hand held or a larger fixed mount marine plotter. So I have both... actually several small format plotters.

For me it's all about positional awareness... depths and observing my course line over the bottom to a chose destination. I find the small format OK and the inconvenience of the tablet is not worth the screen size increase.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

I have a laptop with OpenCPN;
iPad
Android phone
Garmin 76CX hand held plotter

The difficulty with all this stuff is keeping the expen$e of the charts down.

iPad I am using Navionics but I do NOT update the software as that will cut your charts off after 12 months. 
Android phone I use Navionics but just their world map.
Garmin 76CX is quite old and I got the world DVD on my laptop and can transfer charts. But again they are just the basic charts.

If the main kit falls apart I need to be quite careful and get to a port and fix the main nav, the Laptop.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

oldlaxer1 said:


> I used an Ipad 2 for a year without much trouble and then upgraded to an Ipad Pro because I'm kind of a digit head. It is better in the sunlight but I can't say I had much problem with the Ipad 2. I have no dodger or bimini and with tiller steering there is no good mounting place for a fixed plotter or the ipad. I keep my Iphone in my pocket running a different plotting app as a secondary backup. I tend to look at both during a trip. The one issue I have found is you can't let them get overheated or they will shut down. Mostly just keeping the ipad covered when not is use is good enough. I've never had an issue with the iphone in my pocket. To date, I've not dropped either one but recognize it as a possibility. I have the lifeproof case on both the Ipad and Iphone. I travel relatively benign areas of the Chesapeake Bay so YMMV.


I've found pretty much the same as you, lax. We really put ours to the test during a 7-week 1,000-mile-plus cruise from Texas to Florida in June/July. This after using it for a couple of years prior to that for typical weekending on Galveston Bay. During that cruise, we experienced everything from 100 degree heat, to major humidity as you might imagine, to pretty violent squalls, to continuous rain, etc. With 24/7 use, never had a single problem with overheating, loss of power, loss of GPS position, etc. The only issue we ever had was intermittent loss of instrumentation/AIS data overlay from the iMux when in areas of heavy wifi interference. Almost never saw this issue offshore. At the end of our trip, I removed the iPad from the case to inspect if for any kind of moisture damage - nothing. Still going strong a year later.

On the brightness/visibility issue, we found exactly the same as you. It just wasn't a problem. We do have a bimini which obviously helps quite a bit - both in terms of glare, but also I'm sure in terms of heat.

So - that is our first-hand, tried-and-tested, personal experience. I'm a fan.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

As an add-on to the above, I'd planned to also add the Furuno 1st Watch radar to our boat - which gives you high-quality wireless radar directly on the iPad (and any other i-device).










After contacting the Advertising & Communications Manager at Furuno about our set-up and the fact that I wanted to do a review via our blog and Youtube channel, he generously offered a demo unit for evaluation/review for what was to be our FL-Carib run last summer...



> Hi Steve -
> 
> Okay, we can do a 60 day consignment. Can you please give me your address and phone number, so that I can ship it out to you.
> 
> ...


But, alas, with the boys' schedules last summer we just weren't able to get the 6-week block of time needed to do that whole trip. So I thanked Jeff but had to decline the generous offer. I was seriously bummed.

I look forward to seeing some real, first-hand reviews from people who are _actually using it for extended periods of time in varying conditions_. It's super cool tech...and really rounds out what is an* incredibly* powerful, affordable, and redundant i-device nav system.

In any case, I won't hesitate to go this route on our next boat.

Cheers.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have an entirely different take on this. Most consider off shore to be beyond helicopter range. Most consider near shore to be out of site of land but within helicopter range. Trip alluded to above would consider near shore. When offshore key features are AIS, radar overlay ( or split screen view of radar and chart) and integration to autopilot. These functions are currently not possible to my knowledge on any pad. Note possible wireless connectivity to radar but after hearing about difficulties with simple wind instruments outputting to screens have concerns at present. Understand possibilities of AIS showing on screen. We had a splitter on vhf antenna for AIS. Didn’t like signal nor acquisition times for details. Therefore got rid of splitter and set up dedicated antenna with much improvement. Believe nature of this beast and my desire to see ships/boats with all details at at least 12nm. or better neither a pad nor current handhelds match performance of dedicated chart plotter/AIS systems. Have had multiple occasions where my sending my AIS information has been extremely helpful. Multiple occasions transiting the East River in NYC or entering/leaving the cheasepeake where this has resulted in a brief pleasant chat with a commercial or military operator and a safe no stress interaction. It’s also pleasant for that cruise ship to just call you up to say hi. Let you know they see you and you can hold course. Particularly like this when I’m not on deck.
Ability to close companionway and stand single handed watch without need to go below to look at a laptop is helpful.
Went through several days of repetitive constant rain and intermittent squalls. Therefore had one stand watch with second in cockpit to help if needed and boat buttoned up. Just sitting under the hard dodger waiting for possible need to help is boring so crew brought up his pad in a lifeproof to read, game and periodically look at the navionics he had running. By day two of this it died. 
On a different trip which was coastal crew had encased pad in his hand as he left quarterberth going to nav station. Wave jerked him and pad struck corner of nav station desk caught between that and his thigh. It was toast in spite of the case.
Know people have crossed oceans with nothing more than sexton. They’ve made landfalls with nothing more than a lead line. But further know having everything at hand in front of you when you’re tired and stressed is a blessing. 
I don’t even like touch screens as sole mechanism of input for navigation. I realize they have come a long way in recent years. I currently have touch screens but with keyed backup. To date with recent b&g, RM and Garmin found you need to take off your glove or if enough ?static?wet it may take several attempts or not work even then. Had occasion in thick Maine fog and miserable cold drizzle where this was quite an annoyance.
So understand the attraction of using a device you’re well familiar with and is much less expensive. Believe this is a route that is reasonable for many. But continue to believe when you need the information NOW and when it must work every time and it allows full integration to other ship systems chart plotters and multiple small displays are worth the additional expense.
So returning to the OP not being distracted by thoughts of what to use as the primary yes a pad is a reasonable backup. But if you’re likely to be in prolonged adverse conditions you can get a dedicated nav handheld for the same or less money avoiding the inconveniences, limitations and vulnerabilities of a pad.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Yes, it is just a backup system. Thank you all for very informative posts. If anyone has a used tablet already set up with maps FOR SALE, I would be very interested. Here is your chance to upgrade!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> When offshore key features are AIS, radar overlay ( or split screen view of radar and chart) and integration to autopilot. These functions are currently not possible to my knowledge on any pad.


All of these functions are currently available on i-devices (with the radar being a "flip-screen" function currently - not yet split or overlay _within_ iNavX like the others).

Good luck on your hunt kriss.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

krisscross said:


> ......already set up with maps FOR SALE......


I'm pretty sure the iPad apps are keyed to one's Apple ID. I know that's the case to get updates. I'm not sure what happens to them, if you buy a used iPad and sign on with your own Apple ID. Look into that before you buy a used app. I'm guessing you would have to be sure you never updated anything, not the operating system or the apps. These nav apps are cheap. I would focus on the used iPad (Apple sells them too) and buy the app.

On another point, the reason I stay consistent with both an iPad and iPhone is so these apps automatically work across both devices at no additional charge (within the same Apple ID). Some apps are only written for one or the other platform, but most work on both.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

These navigational apps... do they still work on your tablet even if you have no cellular signal? I need something which is not dependent on the cellular signal and would buy maps (like Navionics) to work with the GPS device inside the tablet. We are leaving US (New Orleans) towards end of May, for Panama and later Hawaii and Indonesia. Boat has a chart plotter but I want a solid backup system. I will also have a Garmin inReach for communications. No cell phone.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> As an add-on to the above, I'd planned to also add the Furuno 1st Watch radar to our boat - which gives you high-quality wireless radar directly on the iPad (and any other i-device).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here we go again on the Furuno wireless radar thing. Posting untested equipment.

Not tested yet. So SD shills for it and says he was offered one to test for free...not good and certainly not unbiased. Even copy and pastes their commercial sales pitch. Danger is a sailor may mistake that for an actual user with firsthand experience. We seem not to have anyone yet.

Kriss we use a Raymarine system at the helm which bluetooths into our I pad to it as the backup. 
We also have I phones which also have Navionics should there be an emu pulse from a North Korean nuke?. Course they would have had to been off when the burst occurred.

Obviously I am a big fan of an I pad , however I like the idea of a direct wired Plotter where I don't have to worry about it being charged and is made for use in the weather. ( glare, rain etc.) . Plotter prices now a days is even less than new ipads.

The nice thing about theI pad being bluetoothed is we can stay under the dodger on a long offshore trip. And see what the Chartplotter behind the helm sees. Also can take it below. On,y thing is their is no radar.

The plotter is a multi ingrated interface and can superimpose the radar on the chart also which can be very helpful. Also no real time AIS can be received on the I Pad like it can on the plotter.

As of yet there is no tested radar real time on I pads that I know of. Even when the day comes and I'm sure it will eventually, I will use the pad to show me what's on the integrated plotter as we do now.

In the event of failure of the plotter we will alwYs have multiple electronic backups as well as actual paper charts. We sail both on the Chesapeake and offshore. Offshore we use the paper charts below and plot our position on them every hour in case of electrical failure.

Understand I am not saying not to use the IPad for navigating however for our type of sailing, it doesn't have the flexibility , robust footprint to meet our needs. Currently it has a few limitations. My wife ( or I ) love the ability to hang out while not at the helm and see, plot, and analyze our current situation. Also it has allowed her to learn navigation and plotting over the years.

I think your plan of using your I pad as a backup and a carry below flexibility to charge is a great and prudent idea.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

krisscross said:


> These navigational apps... do they still work on your tablet even if you have no cellular signal? I need something which is not dependent on the cellular signal and would buy maps (like Navionics) to work with the GPS device inside the tablet. We are leaving US (New Orleans) towards end of May, for Panama and later Hawaii and Indonesia. Boat has a chart plotter but I want a solid backup system. I will also have a Garmin inReach for communications. No cell phone.


Most definately. The Navionics is downloaded into the I pad and the GPS of the Pad finds the boat position real time using the sattelites. I would in your case also follow along your position with paper charts.

Having the radar and real time AIS signatures on the Chartplotter of the large ships while on these extended off shore passages you are taking is a great safety function.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Thanks for the info, chef. Yes, we are taking paper charts as well and will plot positions. The captain is old school guy but not too much offshore experience, mostly coastal sailing on his boat (54' steel Bruce Roberts). I'm just helping him on this passage. We will have a crew of 4. Boat has radar and chart plotter.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

krisscross said:


> These navigational apps... do they still work on your tablet even if you have no cellular signal? I need something which is not dependent on the cellular signal and would buy maps (like Navionics) to work with the GPS device inside the tablet. We are leaving US (New Orleans) towards end of May, for Panama and later Hawaii and Indonesia. Boat has a chart plotter but I want a solid backup system. I will also have a Garmin inReach for communications. No cell phone.


This is very critical issue, kriss. If you're going with an iPad you *have to make sure* it has cellular data capability. These are the only models that have the built-in GPS. Now, you don't have to activate or use the cellular data - you don't even have to have a sim card installed. You can disable all that and only rely on wifi for whatever you need to do while in wifi range like trip planning, weather forecasts, etc.. But, again, if you want the integrated GPS (which gives you position anywhere you are regardless of wifi or cell connections) and not have to rely on some kind of puck or other external GPS device - you have to have the cellular data model.

The cool thing about the inReach is that you can pair with your iPhone/iPad and use an app called Earthmate to send and receive satellite messages for 2-way comms and trip tracking - and though I haven't used it as such, you can apprently also download NOAA charts - so could use it as yet another back-up chartplotter system. You can also set it up to receive weather forecasts anywhere in the world.

https://support.garmin.com/faqSearch/en-GB/faq/content/DNY6oAk4iY6sV9dTb7aHs5

Finally, I highly recommend iNavX with the Navionics charts add-on. Overall, it's the most powerful set-up for the iDevice system due to the way it ingrates onboard systems via NMEA, etc. via the iMux. This way you DO get AIS overlay, as well as AP connections, and all onboard instrumentation. You can see all of this for yourself via our videos.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

krisscross said:


> Thanks for the info, chef. Yes, we are taking paper charts as well and will plot positions. The captain is old school guy but not too much offshore experience, mostly coastal sailing on his boat (54' steel Bruce Roberts). I'm just helping him on this passage. We will have a crew of 4. Boat has radar and chart plotter.


R

Wish I was headed with you. Sounds like you have the bases covered.
Post if you can your adventure - successes and challenges

Love hearing first hand experience, that's how most of us can trust what we are seeing.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

So your pad sends out your AIS signal? Or do you have a separate AIS transceiver? What’s the interface?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

You can find all the first-hand-experience-based information you need on my blog and Youtube videos.

kriss - let me know if you have any other specific questions. I'm happy to help. Have a great time on your trip! Sail Big and stay safe!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I am maybe not astute enough to understand this Daddy so can you explain. I can’t sift through you myriad of blogs.
There are two of us now who don’t understand so instead of sending us away to a blog, can you briefly explain. It would be greatly appreciated by others I am sure. 

I have I NavX with the Navionics feature on the i pad. Without any further fees I can get live AIS receive/ transponder info in real time. 

If I have an IPad off shore 200 mikes where there is no cell phone signals
You are saying by using the I pad I can track REAL Time data from a freighter 15 miles away?

Real time in this case means on my current Chartplotter with integrated AIS that I see him to the second where he is and he sees me. We both can see with no lag time course as well as speed of each other. When he changes 10 degrees I don’t wait for that to go to some data system. It displays directly in real time.

If so I need to try this.


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## Pendragon35 (Jun 26, 2014)

I have an iPad Mini with no built in GPS. I use a Garmin GLO connecting via Bluetooth to the iPad and iSailor for software. I love iSailor. I know people complain about the costs, but for what it does, I think it's amazing and you can add in various pieces beyond the charts (weather, places of interest, etc) as you need them. The charts seem to match the NOAA ones well. I also keep paper charts, often with a plot going; I like practicing the skills needed. 

Everyone worries about splash but my iPad in the standard Apple cover has never has a problem (I sail an Alberg 35). The one problem I have had is having it in the sun leading to overheating and then shut down. 

iSailor also works on the iPhone and I use it there as well, which serves as a backup (Garmin GLO can serve up to 4 devices). 

Like any complex program, it took me a while to learn to manipulate iSailor'ss user interface. But once you learn its particular way of doing things, it begins to make sense and it's a great option for navigation. 

I've never used Navionics or iNavx; lots of people seem to like them, I really don't have an opinion. 

OpenCPN is great. It doesn't run on an iPad. But it's possible to run it on another computer, Raspberry PI for example, and use a VPN connection to see it on an iPad. HOnestly? I find that on the whole a clunky solution EXCEPT for one thing: I'm about to get a VHF radio that outputs AIS And GPS. I plan to run these to a laptop using OpenCPN. It would be nice to figure out how to get the AIS on the iPad.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Chef/out - I'm sorry, I'm not interested in doing this again with you guys. I'm more than happy to help new people around here as needed in areas where I have something to offer - but the posts above make it clear that some of the same group of dudes are just trying to spin everything up again. I won't play. You'll just have to sift - or wait.

I'm sure you understand. Later.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thank you


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Pendragon35 said:


> I love iSailor. I know people complain about the costs, but for what it does, I think it's amazing and you can add in various pieces beyond the charts (weather, places of interest, etc) as you need them. The charts seem to match the NOAA ones well.


Thanks for the info. So what are the costs involved, besides the obvious cost of an iPad (I would get one with a built in GPS and cellular data option)?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Pendragon35 said:


> I have an iPad Mini with no built in GPS. I use a Garmin GLO connecting via Bluetooth to the iPad and iSailor for software. I love iSailor. I know people complain about the costs, but for what it does, I think it's amazing and you can add in various pieces beyond the charts (weather, places of interest, etc) as you need them. The charts seem to match the NOAA ones well. I also keep paper charts, often with a plot going; I like practicing the skills needed.
> 
> Everyone worries about splash but my iPad in the standard Apple cover has never has a problem (I sail an Alberg 35). The one problem I have had is having it in the sun leading to overheating and then shut down.
> 
> ...


Pendragon - I'm working up a video that will cover everything we had integrated on our boat. It will also include how the Furuno 1st Watch app integrates with iNavX. As for the AIS/GPS we used the Standard Horizon GX2200...integrating that NMEA output as an overlay on the iPad/iNavX charts. You need all the right pieces and apps to make everything work together, but when you have it all integrated - it's pretty amazing...especially because you can run it all through multiple i-devices across the boat.

(I know this for a fact, because I've actually done it and have the very _REAL first-hand experience_ that a small-yet-very-vocal group around here seems to demand...yet dismisses if it doesn't fit their agenda or preconceptions. Hard to figure that one out. Anyway...)

Stay tuned for an upcoming GeekZone vid on this.

I also did another extensive video on the RaspberryPi and SignalK...which gets more into the OpenCPN world...but opens the door to a lot of potentially negative stuff. That's why I entitled it "Signal K and Indentured Cruising". But that's another discussion.

All great technologies - you just have to have a pretty good understanding of what goes on under the hood to figure out if it's a good idea or not.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Seems from what you’re saying you can achieve a patched together system requiring you to understand what’s under the hood (your words) that approaches the capabilities of a dedicated plug and play hard wired system for about the same money but still not optimized for the stresses of full time cruising. On the rare occasions the chart plotter system fails to work its easier to diagnose and get service if required even in foreign waters. Until that occurs it’s nice to just turn that one off, move the micro sd card to a new master and carry on. 
Although my iPhone can do everything my integrated car gps does I use the one in the car when driving not the phone. Interesting that to date if you go on any commercial craft or hard core racer or long term cruiser power or sail even if newly commissioned you’re not likely to see them following SDs advice. When your have the stakes this high and people have developed dedicated systems optimized for this use in this environment if you don’t have the desire to make a point or be a celebrity you will likely decide to go with one of the existing vendors. 
Often you’re given this choice. Some people make their own water makers. Many work fine and give good service. Many use Honda gas generators with success. However most still install branded watermakers and branded marine generators. For systems that have such an impact the multiple advantages of the machine created for that purpose in that environment out weigh the diy. 
We have open cpn running on the tough book. Both iPads are integrated to the chart plotters as are both iPhones. They also have navionics on them. Still carry a small handheld Garmin, paper charts and use the chart plotters in preference.
I’m pleased that pad navigation has taken off. It’s driven the chart plotter vendors to improve their offerings and hold to a price point. The innovation and dramatic increase in ease of use and useful features is pleasing. Perhaps pads will have better screens, be suitably hardened, be plug and play with no need to look under the hood in the future. Seems to me then they will be chart plotters Oh My....


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Yes, putting a full blown system together like the one we had requires some basic technical knowledge. But it's really not that hard if you can follow directions and have the desire to do it. That's why I'm taking the time to share my experience on this with those who are actually interested.

Alternatively, if one doesn't want to be bothered (or antagonistic), one can pay 5X-30X+ the cost (nowhere near the "same money") - and *still* have limitations. Their call.

As for who uses tablets and whether they are up to the rigors of the ocean, I'm not sure where you're looking, but here's Ian Walker using one during the VOR...










I've heard he's a pretty good sailor - in the ocean - pretty far from shore. Tablets were also all over the AC in the past couple of iterations.

Here's the article that the photo of Ian's is from with this snippet (specific to racing, but you get the idea)...



> Bringing the navigator on deck and into inshore fleet racing was once the domain of the America's Cup until the advent of deck screens. Deck screens have been common for some years now in professional racing such as the TP52 class. However, new technology has lowered the cost of implementation. These days it is not unusual to see club racers using deck screens to increase their starting accuracy and to take advantage of tactical navigation software such as Expedition, Deckman and Adrena.
> 
> Just what are the options for a club racer who wants to use software on deck to help make smarter decisions?
> 
> ...


Again, I have no interest in trying to change your mind, out - or anyone else in your brood, so I won't continue this. You guys use what you like. I fully support you in living in whatever world you want to live in. I really don't care.

I'll just correct misstatements, etc. as I've done above when I feel it's needed...and continue to answer questions from those who are actually interested in having a real conversation about the realities of this very cool, very affordable tech.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Chef/out - I'm sorry, I'm not interested in doing this again with you guys. I'm more than happy to help new people around here as needed in areas where I have something to offer - but the posts above make it clear that some of the same group of dudes are just trying to spin everything up again. I won't play. You'll just have to sift - or wait.
> 
> I'm sure you understand. Later.


Thanks smacks,

That answer should also show the newbies you purport to be helping exactly that you are stuck on your own agenda

Unwilling to answer questions ur even admit there are issues with what you propose

Even if you had this capability on your sold boat. The answers show a lot of complexity jury rigged and we all know the issues of differening equipment talking to each other especially when not matched

I would bet the average sailor on SN here doesn't want to have a Rube Goldberg designed system when they can purchase as reasonable MFD chartplotter for cheap now adays and integrate radar, ais in a plug and play mode. Not to mention the charging and Vison issues

As far as cost the I pad cost is similar nowadays

To the newbies, I have an I pad as backup and love it

However I recognize
That if I want to make it multifunctional it will require a whiole confusing mismatched parts to work as well as downloading different programs hoping they talk to each other. . I wonder whether most of you want to continually mess with that. I'd rather spend my time sailing and enjoying the water then becoming an electronics computer sleuth.

For those who use an I pad for your principal form of navigation as it meets your basic sailing needs. It's a great piece of electronics , but you do need a backup plan when it fails or runs out of juice . Or even gets hacked / spammed. Like some of us are now by using this Sailnet site. Redundancy is important. Redundancy not reaching its solutions exactly the same is a good cross check

As a current boat owner with active boating experience I still recommend a solution with a uncomplicated MFD chartplotter and an I pad as it's backup.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

There’s no question tablets are useful tools on a boat. We use them routinely as well as the laptop. However continue to use all the tools available that aid safety and lower stress. On passage it’s easy to have crew get comfortable with the chart plotter but difficult for them to get comfortable with some of the stuff on the laptop. They don’t have issues with the iPad and commonly folks bring their pads and use them. However the boat and the log runs off the chart plotter. That’s what’s used by whoever is on watch. Have had several crew who run their personal boats off a pad. Surprisingly they have commented they like running the boat off the chart plotters.
Appreciate the article about INSHORE racing you alluded too. Delightful and useful tools for the tactician and deck screens most helpful to crew. 
Understand virtually all offshore racers are using laptops or powerful pads to optimize vmg, help with weather routing and they are de rigor if you want to be competitive but still believe for cruising there remains a place for plotters being the primary navigation aid. Like you I have no desire to change your mind. I’m fortunate in seeing the hi tech stuff coming out of neb time to time. Still seeing b&g and the like being put on those boats. Similarly have friends running commercial and research vessels. Once again plotters are being installed at the helms. Yes, everyone is using pads but as supplemental resources.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

For those reading along, here is the sum total of the "cobbled together, jury-rigged, Rube Goldberg" system we had on our boat...










-At the 1900 position you have the Raymarine autopilot that came with the boat
-At the 2000 position you have the Raymarine ST60 instruments that came with the boat
-At the 2200 position you have the Furuno 1st Watch radar I was planning to add (we actually had an old JRC that I was going to replace)
-At the 2300 position you have the Brookhouse iMux.
-Then the iPad chartplotter
-Then the iPhone backup (of which we had 4)
-At the 1600 position you have the Standard Horizon GX 2200
-At the 1700 position you have other instrumentation that could be optionally added via the existing NMEA/SeaTalk wiring in the boat (and monitored via iNavX) like engine data, tankage, etc.

Here is what it took to make it all work as a unified system on a single iPad at the helm...

1. Run a SeaTalk cable from the Raymarine Tri-Data instrument at the nav station (or Tee-in anywhere in the cable) - to the iMux and follow the wiring instructions for the iMux. Turn on your instruments. You now have all NMEA/SeaTalk data being broadcast via onboard Wifi.

2. Pick up your iPad and select the iMux wifi signal you now see and enter the password given to you with the iMux. Now go into iNavX and set the TCP/IP settings for the iMux. You now have all NMEA/SeaTalk data coming through to your chartplotter where you can see everything (as tabs at the top of your chart, and/or via in the full instruments dashboard shown in the 1700 image below) from windspeed, wind direction, boat speed, depth, state of charge, water temp, air temp, you name it. Anything coming through that NMEA/SeaTalk wire is now on your chartplotter (AND all other i-devices on your boat). A couple more settings in iNavX and you also have an AP repeater on your iPad via the same NMEA/SeaTalk backbone.

3. Turn the instruments back off and run a couple of wires from your Standard Horizon GX2200 into the appropriate inputs on the iMux. Turn everything back on, including the VHF. You now have live AIS on your charts where you can monitor and touch targets and get all the typical AIS data in the pop-up you'd expect from any advanced MFD.

That's it. That's all you have to do to have a fully functional, fully capable MFD at the helm...and as many additional back-up i-devices you might have onboard (we had 2 iPads and 4 phones and ALL of them worked with this system).

The Furuno 1st Watch only requires power (no additional wiring). So it's very easy to add and could probably use the same power connection your current radar dome uses. Then you install the app on your i-Device, and now you also have full-featured hi-def radar on the chartplotter at the helm and all other i-devices on your boat.

It's really not that hard - unless one needs it be for some reason. More coming soon on video.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> For those reading along, here is the sum total of the "cobbled together, jury-rigged, Rube Goldberg" system we had on our boat...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like is said cobbled together. Not simplicity. Not for me.

I am not trying to change you. Just present an alternative point of view to other posters. I am saying you are wrong Smacky, Just that others think differently. You seem to have a problem with that as every time one of us posts ...its counter point back from you in minutes. Counterpoint meaning you are trying to prove us wrong . The counterpoint has volumes of tech talk, pretty cut and paste diagrams or videos..and volume...sheer volume.

I have no problem with I Pads. Just like Outbound don't see them as what I or many of my friends who I sail with want as their PRIMARY system.

Despite the volume of posts you present with the glitzy computer generated cut and paste it doesn't mean you convinced the average SAILOR who actually sails many miles like we do. Many of my sailing friends are very knowledgeable and also sail their boats all the time. We don't have time to draw up or google search topics for SN. Some previous posters on this very subject thought relying on them offshore was a safety issue. Not the I pad, just using it as a primary.

For those you take down this path...good for them if they are happy. For those who agree with the using of a Chartplotter as a primary ....good for them .

My friends and our spouses don't want to have deal with downloading and fixing connections from mismatched equipment which wasn't its primary intended purpose. While some geeks may follow this route I cannot see it ever really replacing the MSD overall. Does it really make a difference in the end run?

For you newbies or those who really just want to hang out on your boats, upgrade your Navionics, and go sailing without having to generate a lot of time. KISS principal applies. My wife and I sail, every weekend, 
We travel over 3000 mikes a year as costal or Chesapeake bay cruisers and have done it for years. 
As I look around at my friends boats who sail I see many variations of what we have. We certainly don't own a dock queen, barge , or powerboat,. We are SAILORS just like you. This works for us.

Many of us just love the beauty of sailing and don't give a rats ass about connectivity, rebooting, proper backbones, connectivity, downloading , we just want to sail. We don't sit in front of a computer. We sit in the cockpit enjoying the scenery. I like turning on instruments others can also run, including my wife. We love the Chartplotter we have integrated on one screen with radar and AIS , and we also have an I pad. I'll bet if I went down the dock, and asked any of them whether they would give theirs up for a primary navigation system offshore as an I pad....they would laugh and say hell no. But what do we know....we actually sail.

Your choice spend your time where you think you want. ??

BTW...is it always necesssary for to to feel you need to have the last word . I thought you were done talking about this to us. Maybe not???


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Just an unsolicited note for those who are in the Chesapeake area:

We went 3 days . I also took the diesel course.

Check it out

Cruisers University
https://www.annapolisboatshows.com/cruisers-university/

Many good speakers including electronics ( AIS, SSB, I Pads, VHF ) topics like this thread. The speakers are experts in their fields with years of experience as well as thousands of cruising boating miles under the belts

Also weather, diesel ( closed) , preparation for cruising, women's cruisers, emergency situations, navigation. Etc, etc, etc.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

outbound said:


> Have an entirely different take on this....
> 
> I don't even like touch screens as sole mechanism of input for navigation. I realize they have come a long way in recent years. I currently have touch screens but with keyed backup. To date with recent b&g, RM and Garmin found you need to take off your glove or if enough ?static?wet it may take several attempts or not work even then. Had occasion in thick Maine fog and miserable cold drizzle where this was quite an annoyance.
> So understand the attraction of using a device you're well familiar with and is much less expensive. Believe this is a route that is reasonable for many. But continue to believe when you need the information NOW and when it must work every time and it allows full integration to other ship systems chart plotters and multiple small displays are worth the additional expense.
> So returning to the OP not being distracted by thoughts of what to use as the primary yes a pad is a reasonable backup. But if you're likely to be in prolonged adverse conditions you can get a dedicated nav handheld for the same or less money avoiding the inconveniences, limitations and vulnerabilities of a pad.


Ditto: I found the same true when touring on a motorcycle. Gloves and multi-touch screens can be very frustrating even if you have the special touchscreen fingertips on your gloves and when the ride is wet or rough then (even in a weatherproof case) a tablet or phone can be very difficult to impossible to operate while the simpler single touch or button interface on a dedicated device such as a Garmin tend to be easier to control. In an emergency you don't need to be distracted fussing with tech that's uncooperative when its wet and lets face it that might be when you'll be needing your fall back device the most. To me sure have the tablet/phone in the flavor you prefer as a nice to have alternative but still have that emergency backup device (even if it does not have all the bells and whistles) designed from the ground up to be used on a boat in weather.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Information is useful.... but there is a point of diminishing returns. Integrated systems can have systems failures Non integrated ones tend to have isolated failures. 

Marine plotters MFDs are designed to work in the marine environment... and can accept and output information to remote devices to inform the skipper.

The way I sail I use a below decks MFD... it has radar, charts, GPS and inputs from an AIS receiver. The environmental data comes from and is displayed at the nav station and the cockpit by stand alone transducers. I have a stand alone MFD/plotter (portable GPS B&G Zeus) in the cockpit and of course chart enabled tablet, and smart phone.

I am sailing almost exclusively in good visibility because I can... but in the cases of diminished visibility I do have to go below and check the radar which can be set with audible guard zones. If I had radar in the cockpit it would be better in a very small fraction of the times I am sailing.

AIS info is available on my hand held VHF.

As I have stated a number of times... I do not use or keep a library of waypoints. I program one as needed... it takes about seconds... and the waypoint related nav data is displayed to a repeater in the cockpit.

The mobile devices are rarely used... but fine for positional awareness. I navigate to a fixed mark... you can do that using the devices heading line set to infinity.

THE PROBLEM IS NO LONGER NAVIGATION... (for me) I am not sailing in uncharted waters or new challenging environments. The cost and complexity of marine information systems is way out of whack. I don't need electronic anchor alarms. I know how to anchor... check the hook and am sensitive to changing conditions and pop up to check.

Touch screens are NOT a good interface in the marine environment for multiple reasons. But we've been conditioned to this interface and layers upon layers of menus to access all manner of "functionality".

I would guess that for the vast majority of sailors... a mobile device is adequate for the task, but it comes with its own set of limitations. Sailing is not an interactive video game...

We got what we wanted but we are losing what we had.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I somewhat agree with the pushback on touchscreen chartplotters. They are harder to manipulate, when things are bouncing around and I worry about scratching, etc. 

However, when researching this at the Fall sailboat show, it became obvious that I can get a much bigger screen area, in the same space, with the all touch screens. This was appealing. I think the cockpit is going to be all touch screen and the nav station will have knobs (although I get the argument for the other way around). 

I've decided upon Raymarine, for the simplicity. Fewer doo-dads that I don't really need or much want. I liked all the info on B&G, I just don't need it and displays seemed cluttered to my eye. Good for racing, I suppose. Garmin looks like a cartoon. Personal preference all around.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

SanderO said:


> Information is useful.... but there is a point of diminishing returns. Integrated systems can have systems failures Non integrated ones tend to have isolated failures.
> 
> Marine plotters MFDs are designed to work in the marine environment... and can accept and output information to remote devices to inform the skipper.
> 
> ...


While SanderO's sailing style is similar to mine, including anchoring/anchor watch, I find an integrated MFD controlling the AP is very useful, vs. navigating to a waypoint by direction alone. For example, I often return to Mystic from Block Island using Wicapesset passage to enter Fishers Island Sound to avoid the traffic at Watch Hill Passage. Often this means beating into the typical SW breeze with a fair current (flood). As you approach the line of reefs between Fishers Island and Watch Hill, the otherwise westerly current turns somewhat northerly. If you don't compensate early enough you will find yourself pinching to avoid being set on the reefs. With the AP set to navigate to a waypoint south of Wicapesset passage-rather than navigating by initial bearing to the waypoint-my AP will automatically adjust my heading to maintain the rhumb line and avoid this problem. Waiting too late may force a port tack.

The integrated instrumentation makes the AP "smarter" and the sailing more relaxing in tidal current situations, especially nearing harbor entrances. If you are paying attention to what the AP is doing in these situations, you will learn a lot about current patterns in your familiar sailing grounds. That information should go into your memory bank to improve your dead reckoning skills for the time your electronics fail-as will happen in a lighting strike.

I also find radar useful for tracking those tugs with barges on long tow lines in Block Island Sound. Depending on conditions, the barge can track well off the tug track. Radar can show that. Of course, you want to stay well away from these rigs. Otherwise radar can show you how you are doing relative to other sailboats on the same tack. Not everyone has AIS. I don't make a practice of "video gaming" when sailing, but practicing your radar skills in clear visibility is important for when the visibility (fog, night) goes down.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

fallard said:


> While SanderO's sailing style is similar to mine, including anchoring/anchor watch, I find an integrated MFD controlling the AP is very useful, vs. navigating to a waypoint by direction alone. For example, I often return to Mystic from Block Island using Wicapesset passage to enter Fishers Island Sound to avoid the traffic at Watch Hill Passage. Often this means beating into the typical SW breeze with a fair current (flood). As you approach the line of reefs between Fishers Island and Watch Hill, the otherwise westerly current turns somewhat northerly. If you don't compensate early enough you will find yourself pinching to avoid being set on the reefs. With the AP set to navigate to a waypoint south of Wicapesset passage-rather than navigating by initial bearing to the waypoint-my AP will automatically adjust my heading to maintain the rhumb line and avoid this problem. Waiting too late may force a port tack.
> 
> The integrated instrumentation makes the AP "smarter" and the sailing more relaxing in tidal current situations, especially nearing harbor entrances. If you are paying attention to what the AP is doing in these situations, you will learn a lot about current patterns in your familiar sailing grounds. That information should go into your memory bank to improve your dead reckoning skills for the time your electronics fail-as will happen in a lighting strike.
> 
> I also find radar useful for tracking those tugs with barges on long tow lines in Block Island Sound. Depending on conditions, the barge can track well off the tug track. Radar can show that. Of course, you want to stay well away from these rigs. Otherwise radar can show you how you are doing relative to other sailboats on the same tack. Not everyone has AIS. I don't make a practice of "video gaming" when sailing, but practicing your radar skills in clear visibility is important for when the visibility (fog, night) goes down.


Thanks for this explanation. I need to clarify (perhaps) how I "use" technology to enhance my sailing experience.

I almost never stand at the helm except for "final approach" to the fuel dock... or to the mooring buoy. So virtually all the time I am making way Shiva is steered by the AP. My AP is NOT interfaced with a GPS. It has a large course dial and a few smaller dials to set the amount of yaw response and an "auto trim" dial. The control head is mounted in the forward port side of the cockpit coaming. When I am steering using the dial I will often sit above the AP on the coaming where I have total visibilty... and I have my portable B&G plotter mounted on the port side of the coach roof under the dodger... right there. I can rotate the B&G toward my position and turn the course dial by reaching between my legs. The dial is like a mini helm... turn clockwise... the AP turns to stbd... counter clockwise it turns to port. I can turn to a "designated heading" or to X number of degrees such as to tack... I usually do it 100-120°.

Once I am heading where I want to go or can sail and the sails are trimmed I settle down into sitting in the cockpit.

If I need to go to a destination I can't see with the naked eye... I have a few choices... look at the bearing from my position to it and turn the AP to that heading. How do I know the bearing? I use a chart plotter. I move the cursor to the "destination" and the plotter tells me course or bearing to waypoint. I can turn the cursor position into a waypoint with one press. Go To cursor... than set as waypoint.

Now I see a rhumb line on the plotter from my present position to the mark I want to sail to or motor to. Plotter tells me information like time to go and cross track error... which is only important if the course line is close to hazards.

I monitor my position by WATCHING and also observing my position on the plotter. I can do that on my smart phone. A tablet in the cockpit is a disaster waiting to happen. I can turn on currents and I can see my track which will show lee way or how much I am being set off my course line. If I want to remain ON the rhumb line I make minor corrections periodically or just set a course slightly different from the rhumb line. If the sail is like 70 miles down the Sound I encounter currents in several directions by can, if the wind is fair sail a pretty damn straight course this way.

I can also make some tight steering maneuvers with the manual dial which I couldn't do with a GPS driven AP (I think).. such as slowly motor through the mooring field almost as if I was at the helm.

My AP must be mechanically engaged to the rudder post. When disengaged there is no drag or strain on the AP.

As you can see I have an anchor windlass UP-DN switch next to the AP and I use that for single handed anchoring as I can control the throttle which is just athwartship from the AP on the pedestal.

When it rains a bit or to stay out of the sun I can sit IN the companionway where I can see all the dash instrument data, the B&G plotter and reach to my left to control the AP. Port side forward in the cockpit is my steering station. Port winch is right there.. I do have to move to trim the starboard sheet. Main sheet is right there as well.

This set up is very ergonomic and based on an intelligent architecture thanks to that to Dick Zaal the boat's architect.

This works for me and I see no reason to change.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I want to be very clear as to when the iPad solution makes sense and when it might not...

First, I don't think there is much of an argument that iPads/Tablets are incredible back-up solutions to whatever chartplotter you currently have at your helm. That's a no-brainer. The question really becomes pertinent when it's time for you to *replace/upgrade that chartplotter at the helm with something better*.

This is because at that point you'll have to decide whether to keep all the current equipment/instrumentation systems on your boat - or whether to rip everything out and re-cable/re-install/re-setup a new "brand name integrated system" like is being espoused above.

This is exactly the position we were in when I started looking into chartplotter options for our boat. I didn't want to spend high 4- to 5-figures putting in an entirely new system. I knew there was a better way. So it really came down to what the best chartplotter solution would be for us...and it needed to be one that would *seamlessly integrate with what we already had onboard* as much as possible.

So, it was down to looking at what was out there. And if you start looking around at buying a new chartplotter you start seeing the trends and costs. For example, if you take a look at Garmin's offerings, there are 4 touch-screen true MFD offerings (with a hybrid on the low end), and 2 traditional button-based offerings that are limited MFDs (or just plotters/sonar alone).

From what I can quickly find (because I don't care that much) the least expensive option with a display size that matches that of an iPad 2 is the ECHOMAP™ Plus 94sv at over $1000.










And, you'll have to wire it in and set it up with your existing systems just like you'd have to do with the iPad (unless, of course, you'd rather pay Rube Goldberg & Sons to do it for you). But you DO have your buttons on this unit - along with some touchscreen inputs (a hybrid).

The remaining high-end MFDs are *all *touch-screen interfaces. The cheapest unit you can buy with a display size that matches that of an iPad 2 is the GPSMAP® 942xs at $1300










From there, you can go all the way up to $12K.

Alternatively, if you look at Raymarine's offerings, it's generally a ~80/20 split of touch-screen/hybrid MFDs and traditional non-touch screen, button-controlled units...

Axiom









Axiom Pro









eS Series









gS Series









With prices comparable or a bit higher than those of Garmin's above.

And, yet again, you are still left with installing and integrating these units - just as you would be with the iPad (which as a reminder, our iPad 2 was under $200. And they are cheaper now.)

*But here's the kicker* - the iPad doesn't HAVE to be hooked up and/or integrated with *anything* to serve as an MFD!

You can walk onto your boat with a GPS enabled iPad with iNavX and just go. You likely already have your wind/speed/depth readouts and your AP control at the helm - of whatever brand. You don't have to change *any* of this (saving you many, many thousands of dollars).

The GPS-enabled iPad gives you a very accurate position (from our experience), incredible and affordable options for many different charts (without the need for chips), trip planning, weather gribs, anchor alarm, speed/heading/course, waypoints, VMG, etc. And, to true MFD form, it does WAY more than just that via all the other apps and functions of the iPad. Oh, and it won't be stolen because you don't have to leave it at the helm 24/7.

*So, you've not had to touch a single thing on your boat if you use the iPad as a chartplotter...while Goldberg and Sons shed a single tear at your brilliance and their impending doom.
*
On the other hand, with just a *little* bit of intelligence and effort, you CAN make the iPad seamlessly integrate with most all those *existing systems* on your boat that use NMEA by simply buying and easily installing the iMux or similar as I described above. This is a HUGE cost and hassle savings over ripping everything out and starting over to "integrate under a single brand". Those that want to go that much more expensive route, I say "knock yourself out". There are just FAR smarter ways to approach it.

Then for those systems that don't immediately integrate (for us it was AIS and radar) - I've shown you how you can easily add them in with the $300 VHF and the $1000 unit from Furuno (which we would have had to do regardless of the chartplotter/MFD we purchased). Again, compare this pricing with JUST the MFD pricing (and features) above.

Again, nothing wrong with going either way on this. It's your call...and money.

Finally, I've covered in my videos how many of the typical complaints against iPads/touchscreens don't really hold water...when evaluated in *real-world usage*. But I want to focus a bit on this general mistrust of touchscreens. In my racing and deliveries over the years I've had a lot of experience with the traditional button-controlled units. Here's the Lowrance setup on a boat I did quite a bit of offshore sailing/racing on (which went on to do a circ)...



















And here is the helm/chartplotter during an offshore distance race on boat I did thousands of offshore miles on. It's the traditional button-controlled unit but with a MUCH better display than that tiny Lowrance unit...but still smaller than my iPad, and of similar brightness...










And, then, here is the set-up we had on the navpod of our own boat...










...which I wouldn't trade - *ever* - for any of the above more traditional units I've also used extensively.

Now, as I've said in our videos, though I fortunately never had to try to use our iPad chartplotter while completely submerged under water (and therefore can't speak to that), this iPad of ours got very, very wet many times being at the helm 24/7 during a couple of violent squalls and TONS of rainstorms from sailing on Galveston Bay to distance cruising to Ft. Myers. *Not once* was the touchscreen interface ever an actual problem that interfered with our needs for the chartplotter. It responded to my inputs just fine.

Now, this might also be because when at the helm we typically set up the view we need for the situation we're in or about to be in, *instead of screwing with the chartplotter in the middle of a potentially dangerous situation*. I believe it's much better seamanship while at the helm to have the chartplotter ready for what you're facing and keep your eyes on what's around you - not on the screen and various buttons during such times. And with so much redundancy in our system, if it actually were an issue, the boys could use any of the other 5 i-devices/chartplotters to do whatever needed to be done from below - and/or we could easily set up multiple views there at the helm with those devices. Easy-peasy.

Of course, this is not an issue related to the type of chartplotter you're using (per se) - it's an issue of where you're putting your attention as the skipper and helmsman.

On that example above in the photos of the boat with that tiny Lowrance, this issue just about got us all into trouble during an offshore race. When I came up to do my shift at about 0400 - about 100 miles out in the Gulf on in very, very light wind conditions - the skipper and his grown son were at the helm with their heads buried in the buttons and pages of that plotter. I looked over and we were heading straight for a blinking light that marked an 8" stand-pipe sticking up out of the water. It was maybe 100' away. They had seen that light and were BOTH trying to figure out what it was *on the chartplotter* (using the buttons, toggles, etc.) - as we almost impaled our boat on it...on a perfectly clear evening!

So - again, arguments can be made for and against whatever UI you prefer. For those who feel safer having legacy buttons, toggles, and joy-sticks because they don't trust touchscreens, I certainly think they should go with what they want (at least before these become completely obsolete). I have no problem with that. This isn't the "zero sum game" that some here themselves are trying to make it (they don't realize the irony of those sentiments).

But I can say *from first-hand experience USING these touchscreen interfaces while sailing inshore, nearshore, offshore, whatevershore in all kinds of conditions from still and blazing hot to high-winds and seas and very, very wet*...

...it's not a problem if you simply know what you're doing.

Could I be wrong about touchscreen being a perfectly suitable UI for rugged marine use? Sure. But then you have to look at what the manufacturers are doing in this area and what your real options are. One of these interface types is growing in usage/adoption - the other is fading away into obsolescence. So either these manufacturers are blowing-off and extending the "dangers" you imagine - or the "dangers" aren't what you think they are.

I hope this helps.

(PS - With an AppleTV device with our solution, we could also have had a 80" 4K simul-display of the charts/etc. down below - like you have on private jets. Now that would have been pimpin'! Of course, that size of flatscreen would have cut off access to the v-berth and forward head so I reluctantly decided against it.)


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

True to form with a 1000 word repeat of past posts just to get the last word. Kind of like a North Korean form of torture. 

Like I previously have said. Many have sailing experience and are currently sailing today, 
Look on the docks, as the people on the boats or shows you go to, see if you can find anyone with a chartplotter who is changing to and I pad. Most will tell you have smart devices as auxiliaries. 

In terms of cost and simplicity it’s comprable, How many I pads will I go through in the 10-12 years I own the Chartplotter. Batteries on I pads wear out. 

Make your choices based on what type of sailing you do. If your new to the game start with an I pad . It’s cerianly an improvement on charts . After a few years of learning about others electronics and set ups you’ll know which direction you want to go in. 

KISS


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Thanks for this explanation. I need to clarify (perhaps) how I "use" technology to enhance my sailing experience.
> 
> I almost never stand at the helm except for "final approach" to the fuel dock... or to the mooring buoy. So virtually all the time I am making way Shiva is steered by the AP. My AP is NOT interfaced with a GPS. It has a large course dial and a few smaller dials to set the amount of yaw response and an "auto trim" dial. The control head is mounted in the forward port side of the cockpit coaming. When I am steering using the dial I will often sit above the AP on the coaming where I have total visibilty... and I have my portable B&G plotter mounted on the port side of the coach roof under the dodger... right there. I can rotate the B&G toward my position and turn the course dial by reaching between my legs. The dial is like a mini helm... turn clockwise... the AP turns to stbd... counter clockwise it turns to port. I can turn to a "designated heading" or to X number of degrees such as to tack... I usually do it 100-120°.
> 
> ...


Reading what you and Fallard are posting we also use our CP and electronics similarly.

My wife is not a real AP fan and prefers a hand steer , that's of course till she tires lol. On coastal passages she relaxes more , but within the Chesapeake on its many creeks she would rather not be on the AP when she is at the Helm.

The CP has definitely helped her learn navigation and ship positioning as well as their relative speed as she can see it real time overlaid or side by side with it displayed in front of her and then looking up and around.

Your comments about touch screens are also my feelings. Our Raymarine is a hybrid . I prefer button and dials which after a while become second nature. Repeated touch of the glass in a salt environment cannot be good for the glass overvtime.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

One last little story on this and then I'll move on unless someone has an actual question. The boys and I have some rock climbing to do on this gorgeous sunny day...

On this point I made above...



> The GPS-enabled iPad gives you a very accurate position (from our experience)...


That's not just guff. As you'll see in our videos, on our offshore run from Pensacola to Panama City - our autopilot crapped the bed. I spent several hours trying to fix it while still offshore - which then put us way behind our scheduled arrival into Panama City. By the time we got to the St. Andrew Bay Inlet it was pitch dark - around 0030. So the question was whether to try to still enter and anchor - or spend the night offshore. I'd never done an entrance or anchor at night - much less in an area I had absolutely ZERO familiarity with. So I was nervous to say the least.

However, the seas were very calm and I could see the channel lights pretty well so I went for it. As I slowly felt my way along the channel, I checked our position shown in iNavX in relation to each and every physical marker (the boys spotlighting them as we went). We were spot on. After clearing the main channel, I then turned east toward the Redfish Point Anchorage shown in Waterway Guide Explorer (#2 in the image).










Again, it was pitch black - especially at this spot - so I had to *solely* rely on the charts and instruments to find a good spot to anchor. No problems at all.

I think that's why they named that Bayou by anchorage #1 after me. They were that impressed with my iPad...and my incredible seamanship. Unfortunately we missed the ceremony. I heard Sir Robin Knox-Johnston gave a rousing speech.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

How many are still using C-Map data for their plotters? 

My crew created much of the foundation raster data for them and I have always been curious as to how folks found it in its final usage/format. I usually am local in sight of land in a very shallow draft vessel so have so far not had a need for a plotter.

We took a big old Tangent grey-scale barrel drum scanner and re-wrote the software for it putting a color wheel between the camera and the drum and made 4 passes (clear, red, blue, green) before moving the camera to create full color scans from the best nautical charts available at the time and then draped them digitally over the spheroid of the earth georectifying them while we were at it. We had a large ironing board that we used to press out the creases in any charts that unfortunately came to us folded and then stored that source material in our vault of chart cabinets. This data was then compared to Satellite Scans and Aerial Surveys for a quality check. C-Map in Italy then created the vector data, attached the database information and maintained the data up-to-date after that. 

Our work was done at 1/2 meter (19.685 inches) resolution/accuracy and was likely reduced to 3 meter resolution by the time anyone but the military got to see it.


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## Pendragon35 (Jun 26, 2014)

chef2sail said:


> Make your choices based on what type of sailing you do. If your new to the game start with an I pad . It's cerianly an improvement on charts . After a few years of learning about others electronics and set ups you'll know which direction you want to go in.
> 
> KISS


This is the best advice I've seen on this thread. How we sail, where we sail, how much we can spend, what works on our boats are all so different.

What I find most helpful isn't a polemic about what others SHOULD do but an account of what someone does with some indication of their sort of boat/sailing environment.


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## SVTatia (May 7, 2007)

krisscross said:


> Yes, it is just a backup system. Thank you all for very informative posts. If anyone has a used tablet already set up with maps FOR SALE, I would be very interested. Here is your chance to upgrade!


Just as an FYI - the ideal nav system would consist of the charting software and weather information in one application, one screen.

I am not an Apple person, but I am seriously looking at Weather 4D for Ipad. Although it is available in Android, it is not as robust as the iOS version and all documentation are in Ibooks.
But I read an article that is really making me think about replacing expensive proprietary systems and MFDs by 2 or 3 Ipads.... but they are staying down below. 
Unfortunately to read the article requires a subscription, but there are loads of information for less than 20 bucks a year. I'm am not related and this is not a plug, but I have not read any other real life field testament of Weather 4D. The link to the site is https://www.morganscloud.com/

BTW, as far as water proofing is concerned, the paper charts aren't, and mariners used them for centuries.... I hope we will not be driving boats the way we drive cars.... charts belong down below, so do these nav tools. Just saying.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Pendragon35 said:


> This is the best advice I've seen on this thread. How we sail, where we sail, how much we can spend, what works on our boats are all so different.
> 
> What I find most helpful isn't a polemic about what others SHOULD do but an account of what someone does with some indication of their sort of boat/sailing environment.


As an old timer who started off modestly with a day sailor for ten years, I was a Luddite and remained so for a couple of decades. We made do with a compass and a chart. When we bought our 18' cabin catboat we added a handheld VHF and Eldridges to go out of sight of land to Block Island and back for the next 15 years. In those days we didn't have the kind of weather forecasts available now. So, we got caught in fog and had to navigate tidal currents without electronic aids. Check the chart for Fishers Island Sound and imaging approaching the reefs in 1/8 mile visibility without GPS. It was a number of years before we got a primitive LORAN that only displayed lat/lon that was not very reliable or useful. That was 20 years into our sailing.

At about 25 years we graduated to a 35' sailboat with competent navigational electronics. Over the next 20+ years we have moved on to our 3rd generation of electronics and a proper (below decks) autopilot that is integrated with the other electronics on the boat. We went through 2 generations of LORAN and then 2 generations of GPS-based chartplotters. In the past half dozen years we have added a marinized handheld chartplotter and iPad/iPhone backup GPS/chartplotters. Once we got radar, we realized how naive we were to operate without situational awareness of idiot powerboaters on a plane in pea soup fog. (BTW, our other boat is a power boat!)

So, yes, it is reasonable for newcomers to start modestly, especially with affordability in mind, but-respectfully, and in hindsight-newcomers have options that are affordable that we didn't have in the old days and that can provide enhanced safety. By that, I mean marinized electronics, like an installed, waterproof chartplotter and VHF. You really need to have your electronics "nailed down" and robust (including power) when the going gets rough. To "cheap out" without a damn good reason could be irresponsible if you are going out of sight of land (which could be 1/4 mile when the fog sets in.)

What I am really saying is newcomers need to set a higher bar than consumer grade, with the understanding that you might have to settle for less until the budget allows. In other words, don't settle for less without understanding that it really is "less".


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

fallard said:


> As an old timer who started off modestly with a day sailor for ten years, I was a Luddite and remained so for a couple of decades. We made do with a compass and a chart. When we bought our 18' cabin catboat we added a handheld VHF and Eldridges to go out of sight of land to Block Island and back for the next 15 years. In those days we didn't have the kind of weather forecasts available now. So, we got caught in fog and had to navigate tidal currents without electronic aids. Check the chart for Fishers Island Sound and imaging approaching the reefs in 1/8 mile visibility without GPS. It was a number of years before we got a primitive LORAN that only displayed lat/lon that was not very reliable or useful. That was 20 years into our sailing.
> 
> At about 25 years we graduated to a 35' sailboat with competent navigational electronics. Over the next 20+ years we have moved on to our 3rd generation of electronics and a proper (below decks) autopilot that is integrated with the other electronics on the boat. We went through 2 generations of LORAN and then 2 generations of GPS-based chartplotters. In the past half dozen years we have added a marinized handheld chartplotter and iPad/iPhone backup GPS/chartplotters. Once we got radar, we realized how naive we were to operate without situational awareness of idiot powerboaters on a plane in pea soup fog. (BTW, our other boat is a power boat!)
> 
> ...


Amazed how similar our stories are.

Looking backwards it's amazing how we survived...lol. Or Devine luck.....or ignorance was bliss.

Today's sailor has more opportunity to use electronics for safety. We all know the pitfalls of burying your head in them and sole reliance without redundancy. They still don't replace the brain for decision making. 
They do provide greater information which if used correctly can make more informed decisions.

Without waxing about the old days before loran...gps...Chartplotter, I certainly enjoy the greater info.

I will say they have helped my wife learn and understand navigation more easily.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Pendragon35 said:


> What I find most helpful isn't a polemic about what others SHOULD do but an account of what someone does with some indication of their sort of boat/sailing environment.


I totally agree with this, pen. When I started this whole discussion a while back in another thread I was merely talking about *my own* first-hand experience with the iPad solution. It was others who literally told *me* that I was lying about it, or doing it wrong, or putting my children at risk, or not understanding the technology, or whatever else. And I was told all the things that would surely go wrong by those who were utterly convinced - *none* of which turned out to be true.

Yet, I'm pretty sure I was the *only* one in the entire conversation who actually used the iPad *exclusively* as a primary and *only* chartplotter solution onboard for an extended period of time in different sailing environments.

So, as I've said above - and everywhere else I've talked about this - whether you go with a legacy plotter, a modern MFD, or a tablet solution (either as primary or backup) is completely up to you. I have nothing against ANY of these solutions (having used most of them extensively). And I have never said the iPad solution is the *only* solution by any means.

But, I DO firmly believe *from experience* that the i-Device solution is superior in many, many ways to a traditional setup. And I've covered the real-world reasons for that pretty extensively...while countering the various things said against this solution that just don't hold up.

I'm just saying people should definitely consider the iPad route - even in the face of the kind of polemic blowback I received. I'm certainly a believer.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Today there are several choices with respect to navigation technology. And for many you can have multiple technologies either stand alone or integrated. Electronics regardless of form/format or underlying software rely on data from transducers or antenna inputs... radio, radar, physical transducers... sonar and so forth. 

I think mobile device technology is fabulous for multiple reasons. It does have limitations as well. Among them are:

they depend on touch screen technology which can be difficult to use in a seaway and in wet conditions.

they may have issues with visibility in bright light or dark conditions

they are not fixed usually and are subject to breaking more easily than fixed mount

they rely on layers of menus for functionality which can be cumbersome


Dedicated purpose designed marinized electronics are not without their own limitations such as having them mounted in a single location... and real estate is precious

Integration is not as seamless as it could be, generations, connectors, compatibility and so on. Networks as systems can have catastrophic failures.

What approach to electronics is a individual decision informed by many things. I personally am used to and comfortable with visible in the forward end of the cockpit display of important sailing data... wind and sea... and have found a small electronic GPS plotter whether fixed or portable for position awareness is fabulous. I am not a fan of touch screens however... but I have little choice in mobile devices and don't expect that to ever change. I do like the idea of having a fixed MFD linked to a mobile device offering the mobile device the full capability of the fixed devices.

I am not aware of any radars which directly drive a mobile device. Are there any out there?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SVTatia said:


> ........charts belong down below, so do these nav tools. Just saying.


That's your choice, but when one needs to confirm positioning frequently (ie near shore), it sure seems inefficient to me.

Modern access to weather aboard didn't even exist, when the below deck nav station was first adopted.

For me (no problem with what you decide), I want primary nav and weather at the helm, backed up down below. Although, I don't see a need for constant weather overlay on the nav charts. Neither we, nor the weather, move all that fast. If you are able to see satellite or cellular weather coming over the horizon, by the time it gets close, you don't need electronics to let you know where it is.


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## SeaStar58 (Feb 14, 2018)

One is going to get a lot of different view points on this and they will all be valid for the need of each individual. The open boat or small storage cuddy day/picnic sailor is going to have different needs compared to a coastal sailor or big boat offshore sailor as will the fair weather only sailor compared to those who are going to be out on the water rain or shine. 

For many my S5 Sport Phone (water resistant with the charging port cover in place) with Navionics loaded may suit them just fine while for others the constant motion of their boat and cockpit arrangement may make that untenable. There really is no right or wrong answer and each will have to choose the shoe that best fits them, otherwise everyone would be wearing Size 12 Quadruple E like me. It's great that we have enough choices to fulfill everyone's needs and personal preferences.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Let’s get into the weeds for a moment.
I haven’t been on a boat below 60’ that doesn’t follow some minor variation of the below.
Weather is looked at once or twice a day. It’s received by SSB or satellite. Format is email via Sailmail or the like through the ssb or via iridium or globalstar. Domes are outside the budget and if present used sparingly due to expense.
Often a daily scheduled conversation with a weather router occurs via sat phone or SSB group chat if on a rally. 
This activity is done at the nav station with an mfd in front of the captain or navigator. After receipt of weather information a brief discussion occurs or captain mediates on the plan for the next 24 hours. 
Most boats continue to log mB at change of watch. Many continue to to use a recoding barometer. All boats log awa, aws, seastate at change of watch. All crew watch the sky and often turn on the radar if there’s any concern for squalls.
So even on boats without a dedicated nav station cognitive processing concerning regional weather is done below after receiving outside information which is also done down below. Micro weather thinking is done on deck and is a constant process if you have skilled crew. 
Having all information at one place at one time facilitates good thinking and decisions. Although most believe having a dedicated nav station continues to make sense some new boats forgo this. Although, even with new boats, most believe a large fixed screen at the nav station and another at the helm ease navigation and weather processing some supplement this with portable screens. ( I do). However, I have yet to be on any boat (old or new) that long term cruises or makes passages which doesn’t make use of marine task specific multifunction displays. Pershaps this will change but but like the one trick pony suspect not.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

WEATHER and electronics.

For coastal work nothing beats in my opinion MyRadar and app for mobile devices. It shows rain and you can see animations indicating the movement of weather and wind direction, cloud cover, rain and so on. Anyone who has a smart phone should have MyRadar and consult it periodically if there is unsettled weather within 100 miles.

Many plotters support Sirius or perhaps other weather overlays... really not all that important when you can use My Radar.

There are also apps for GRIBS animated.. and WIND animated. Both of these apps on mobile devices make more sense than having it on a fixed mount that you need to get in front of to see... down below or behind the helm... where you plotter/MFD is mounted.

LOCAL immediate to your boat wind needs to be seen / available in the cockpit... where you SAIL (verb) from... trim and steer. Having this info displayed below is interesting to someone below... but critical to the crew trimming and steering.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Sandero is any of that available via SSB or low speed satellite? We try to keep our satellite bill between $500 and $1k. Of course once installed SSB is free. Even coastal ( northern Maine and maritines, most of Caribbean) have had occasion of no internet even with the booster.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

outbound said:


> Sandero is any of that available via SSB or low speed satellite? We try to keep our satellite bill between $500 and $1k. Of course once installed SSB is free. Even coastal ( northern Maine and maritines, most of Caribbean) have had occasion of no internet even with the booster.


Phone apps I believe are not internet driven but transmitted via cell phone signal. When my landline goes... with it internet and TV my cell phone still has google etc.

If you have a cell signal in ME you should be able to get those apps on your phone or tablet.

You can navigate with with a mobile device with a GPS signal... no cell connection needed... loaded app like Navionics is not dependent on a cell connection


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Most places I’m in have no cellphone availability once 5-10 m away from major towns. Most times when entering a new country you have no cell phone until you buy a local chip. Option you suggest is functional only if within sight of land in service area of your cellphone provider. This is not an viable option for many cruisers even if exclusively coastal.
Simple example.
Wanting weather in transit P’town - Halifax.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

outbound said:


> Most places I'm in have no cellphone availability once 5-10 m away from major towns. Most times when entering a new country you have no cell phone until you buy a local chip. Option you suggest is functional only if within sight of land in service area of your cellphone provider. This is not an viable option for many cruisers even if exclusively coastal.
> Simple example.
> Wanting weather in transit P'town - Halifax.


This is true... cell phone coverage IS still spotty. Perhaps new antenna technology will increase the range and the dead spots will become a thing of the past. Sure we need new sim cards and so on when we move into areas which are not supported by the technology of our phones.

So yes... we are not there with mobile technology for data when further "off the grid". There are satellite based technologies and if the price can come down... this may be a solution.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

SanderO said:


> This is true... cell phone coverage IS still spotty. Perhaps new antenna technology will increase the range and the dead spots will become a thing of the past. Sure we need new sim cards and so on when we move into areas which are not supported by the technology of our phones.
> 
> So yes... we are not there with mobile technology for data when further "off the grid". There are satellite based technologies and if the price can come down... this may be a solution.


My iPad will function as a chartplotter using Garmin Bluechart Mobile in Airplane mode (no cellular) and will display stored Active Captain data. So, it will function "off the grid", but weather is a different matter. If you have radar, you can adjust your settings to detect local thunderstorm activity in real time and perhaps be able to avoid them.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Apart from individual preference, let me address just a couple of your comments about mobile device stuff - because it's critical to the discussion when considering these options.

Again, my feedback is driven by use of the marinized *iPad* as a primary chartplotter for several years in all kinds of conditions - with non-marinized iPhones as backup (i.e. - just keep them protected and dry in my pocket or down below, etc). I can't speak to other brand tablet devices or phones...



SanderO said:


> I think mobile device technology is fabulous for multiple reasons. It does have limitations as well. Among them are:
> 
> they depend on touch screen technology which can be difficult to use in a seaway and in wet conditions.


Our iPad was fixed at the helm 24/7 (while underway) for almost 2 months of summer cruising from Texas to Florida. Very hot, very humid, LOTS of thunderstorms - some violent, and lots of rain squalls. Its use in rough seas and very wet conditions was never a problem. Not once. That said, I do know that if both fingers and screen are VERY, VERY wet - you can have intermittent issues with things like pan and pinch-zoom. But we never had that problem - so I'm not sure what it would actually take out there to generate this use case.

In an upcoming video I will do a test on our iPad to see how much water it takes.

But as I said above, I'm also not quite sure what the scenario is that you're going to be pinching and zooming while at the helm in a dangerous situation. I don't think you'd expect to be fiddling with the knobs and buttons of a traditional chartplotter in such a situation. I wouldn't. I'd be focusing on the boat - having already set my chartplotter for the view I need for the situation. So I've not seen a convincing use case yet for this issue that makes it the actual problem people assume it is.



SanderO said:


> they may have issues with visibility in bright light or dark conditions


I've covered this pretty extensively in my videos and writing elsewhere. If you take at least some amount of care in how you mount the iPad (not pointed at the sun) - and especially if you have a bimini like we had on our boat (a very, very common thing for boats in the southern regions, Carib, etc.) - it is not a problem.

I've already posted a photo above of our iPad at the helm. Here's another...










And you can compare that with a Garmin 7612...










The point is, you *can* get glare issues on any of these devices - even non-touchscreen traditional plotters. It's up to you to simply ensure that you're placing/mounting it in such a way as to minimize the issue.

As for brightness it is true that the iPad 2 we use is not as bright as new MFDs. As you can see in the photos, I never found this to be a problem at all in constant use over the years. I think the bimini helps tremendously with that. But the newer generation of iPads are now much brighter so this is becoming less of an issue as well.

As for night view, iNavX has a night setting just like any MFD will. It's very effective - and you also have the ability to adjust the brightness of the iPad up or down as preferred. It's no different than any other traditional device in that regard.



SanderO said:


> they are not fixed usually and are subject to breaking more easily than fixed mount


This is only true if you want it to be. Our iPad was fixed at the helm (as you can see in the above pics) - and I advise anyone that's going to use on as a chartplotter to do the same. Having your primary chartplotter sitting loose in the cockpit under sail is just a very bad idea. I think people know this. On the other hand our second iPad was below at the nav table and our 4 phones were either in our pockets or below. All these backup devices had the same chartplotting app and could be used as well. We had to be careful with those because they COULD be subject to dropping and breaking. But, again, that doesn't apply to the iPad fixed at the helm.



SanderO said:


> they rely on layers of menus for functionality which can be cumbersome


I don't know where this comes from. Maybe it's the device you use? The iPad UI is very simple and elegant. And iNavX (the chartplotter app) is incredibly straightforward and intuitive to navigate. I find it FAR easier and more powerful than the traditional plotters I've used in the past. I wouldn't trade it.



SanderO said:


> I am not aware of any radars which directly drive a mobile device. Are there any out there?


Yes. I mentioned it above. The Furuno 1st Watch.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

As for various apps we used in our i-Device system (including MyRadar Pro as Sander mentioned) - this video covers it pretty well...






For weather PLANNING we used ZyGrib (free) on our Macbook, then moved to PredictWind (costs - but is very good for planning). Several miles offshore and out of cell range, MyRadar obviously doesn't work, so we then supplemented our set-up with our InReach - getting satellite-based updates for marine weather, which were only $1 per request (1 per day for us).

When I start crossing oceans, I will move up from the InReach to the IrididiumGO! or something similar which integrates with PredictWind to give you a very, very powerful weather data system onboard (as well as many other communications options). This is what SV Delos uses and they've shown how they do their planning in several of their videos. It's great stuff.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> ......stuff .


I use zoom in and zoom out and pan a lot from the cockpit in close to land... near and around hazards and thin water all the time.

My first use of a mobile device was the PDA gps Garmin iQue which has a zoom in and zoom out button... plus a stylus which you could use to draw a "zoom box" or pan. I loved the zoom box idea because I could define the area of interest to be zoom to... rather than fixed zoom levels.

I don't sit behind the helm except when going to a dock and hand steering... I would never mount electronics there.... not my way of sailing. For my purposes a small hand held... mobile device with navionics does the trick... plus when in cell range I get weather apps, AIS apps, etc. I am not one for a theater size "glass" nav station... I do have a portable gps B&G which I mount into a coach roof winch under the dodger... my protected "steering station" is the companionway. The B&G replaced the smaller but adequate Garmin iQue. It was cheap!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Recall a race boat who ran aground in the Indian Ocean because they didn’t zoom in and out. Watch on my boat is usually behind the helm even given AP or hydrovane is usually doing the steering or under the dark dodger if it’s nasty. Insist people do a 360 every 15m or less when offshore.
There’s different information on most electronic charts depending on degree of magnification.
Would note gribs are sometimes misleading and sole dependence on them can get you in trouble but that’s a discussion for another day.


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## rwlh1950 (Jan 9, 2008)

I use an ipad plus iphone as my main plotter and paper charts as my back-up.
I started sailing in the days before electronic navigation. My 1st GPS device, which cost a fortune in those days would take an age to transfer your position to the paper chart.
I really can't see any reason that I'd want to buy a bespoke plotter.


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## jimlengel (Nov 30, 2004)

We have used our iPad and iPhone as chart plotters for more than 5 years. Much better than handheld GPS units, faster and more accurate than most built-in units. And one-tenth the price. Search for "cruising world iPad round the horn" to learn more.

We put the devices in a zip-loc bag when we are in the cockpit, and in a waterproof bag when it's really wet. Never had a problem.

But when we teach navigation, we make our students learn to do it all on paper charts first. Otherwise they have no idea what's happening on the iPad. 

Watch out, many of the Android and most of the Microsoft Surface tablets do not have GPS, and thus cannot be used as chart plotters. And even on the iPad, most of the plotting apps use True rather than Magnetic readings. We use the Navionics app, and it has worked well in the USA, Cape Horn, Gulf of Thailand, Brazil, and Brittany Coast.

- Jim Lengel, Alerion Express 38 Yawl, Bristol, RI


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## fcgleason (Sep 2, 2015)

OpenCPN with Samsung Android Tablet with GPS, using wifi to receive nmea0183 ship data from router. Keep it below when its rough or raining.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

jimlengel said:


> We have used our iPad and iPhone as chart plotters for more than 5 years. Much better than handheld GPS units, faster and more accurate than most built-in units. And one-tenth the price. Search for "cruising world iPad round the horn" to learn more.
> 
> We put the devices in a zip-loc bag when we are in the cockpit, and in a waterproof bag when it's really wet. Never had a problem.
> 
> ...


I pad is not one tenth the price of a CP. new I Pads are at least $500.
How do you receive radar on the I pad?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Well Jim I stand corrected. Nice article. We generally collect all our reading library on our iPad which serves us for an 8 month stretch, have navionics on it which we use and like you link the iPads and phones via a hotspot to whatever local phone we’re using.
Still run the AP off the chart plotter and look at radar off it as well. Still place my waypoints and leave my breadcrumbs on it as well for me and others to follow. Generally set my waypoints after going through daily weather review. Crew may transpose them to their personal screens but still like using the mfd to run the boat. Maybe that will change but suspect not. Surprised the gps on the mfd was slower than the pad. That hasn’t been my experience.


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## fcgleason (Sep 2, 2015)

"Watch out, many of the Android and most of the Microsoft Surface tablets do not have GPS, and thus cannot be used as chart plotters. "

Well, never say never. If you have a Vesper X8000 or wifi router sending nmea, it can include GPS sentences and the Android tablet or MS Surface don't need the GPS. I use a B343-S4 Gps Puck with my SP3 along with an inateck USB Hub + Ethernet without any problems (also using an AIS USB device + Seatalk Tiny Link for instruments).

Our Samsung cell phones both have GPS and OpenCPN, and a small Samsung Tablet with GPS also runs OpenCPN. So there are many alternatives. Android is a fine choice if you select the right equipment. We also have MxMariner and many other marine apps.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Nice article Jim...from a fellow Cruising World writer no less! Obviously, I found none of it surprising as it closely matches our own experience. Hopefully some of the naysayers will reconsider their positions. I doubt it though.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Nice article Jim...from a fellow Cruising World writer no less! Obviously, I found none of it surprising as it closely matches our own experience. Hopefully some of the naysayers will reconsider their positions. I doubt it though.


Consider this possibility though it will throw water on the incessant "we are out to get you " mantra.

We are not naysayers. We just have different opinions. It doesn't have to be a " if you don't agree with me" you must be wrong attitude like you post.

Those who want to have stand alone MSD displays have good solid reasons for doing it and it conforms to their experience and the way they sail. Along with that almost everyone has an IPad as a secondary backup.

See that's what makes sailing so great , people can have differening opinions on the same thing and still be right and good sailors.

What most of us find difficult is the put downs of if you aren't with me, therefore you are against me attitude .

There is plenty of room for both I pad sailors and stand alone MSD sailors. There is no honor in driving a wedge between people by ridiculing their opinions or their person. 
In this thread or other threads.

For instance mono hull vs multi hull . Why claim one is better or people are migrating away from one to another. Again divisive. After all we are all sailors

Many of us have as much if not more experience than you.

That doesn't minimize your opinions nor does it minimize ours.

How about we all think about publishing the truth as we experienced it instead of dragging up internet commercials to support a side. Anyone can find in line jewels to support a position. The real value come in when we are first hand users.

In the case of I pads you are a first hand user. That's what makes your view more substantial. Still it doesn't make me want to rely on one for my primary. That's not the way we sail.

There are many in my situation. There are many who only want I Pads. It doesn't have to be us against them or in your language " naysayers" vs positive sayers. There's where the rub/ antagonism comes in.

Have fun. Go sailing.

Very soon we will be out on the water first hand testing out equipment and adding to our experience of going new places and meeting other sailors. I can't wait. Till then there is only this ....lol??????*???


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

It seems that one of the benefits of a mobile device are the APPS which are not available on MFDs. In fact the software is static and provided by the mfg. and is entirely limited to marine related applications. I believe the MFDs are now accepting more inputs such as video.

Touch screen makes sens for a small hand held device and all the APPS are designed around touch screen. Many of these apps are handy ... pun intended....and not suited to a fixed mount device.

There is no dispute that radar in the cockpit is where it needs to be. This has led sailors to install their MFD in the cockpit or a slave to one which is below decks.... where it is more "comfortable" to interface. For example I can brace my body when seated in the nav station and rest my arm on the desk and use the MFD and other instruments easily. Standing holding on with on hand is just not as stable to use an MFD in my opinion. So I like the cockpit instruments to TELL me information... without me having to do much to get it.... not more than a "button press" to change the display from say SOG to COG.

Whatever planning I do with the MFD is done in the comfort of the nav station... which is right next to the companion way... and galley... so I can "watch the kettle" while I am doing navigation planning.

I don't see changing to all mobile device... mounted or hand held in the foreseeable future. Maybe I am stuck in my ways... But they work! And I do use hand held mobile devices as a convenient supplement.

+++

It should be pointed out that to "navigate" may require a writing surface to jot a note down... 

It should be noted that mobile devices actually require 2 hands to used to use a touch screen: one to hold the device and one to execute the touch command... This leaves no hands to hold... so you need to be seated or standing firmly. If the mobile device is fixed mounted like a large tablet... one can hold with one hand and use the other to touch a command


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Consider this possibility though it will throw water on the incessant "we are out to get you " mantra.
> 
> We are not naysayers. We just have different opinions. It doesn't have to be a " if you don't agree with me" you must be wrong attitude like you post.
> 
> ...


Oh so THAT'S what that other iPad thread was about - where I was accused of lying, and being irresponsible, and putting my children at risk, and being told that "real" sailors only use MFDs, and being called other lovely names for reporting back what I'd found regarding the iPad as chartplotter, just like Jim above - both of us from first hand experience.

So, who was driving the wedge again there Chef? Let me refresh your memory - you use the word "we" in your post above.

*Exactly.*

In any case - that's water under the bridge. I just don't want you to start re-writing history all the sudden. There's been enough of that around here.

I've just spent my time here correcting statements that were clearly wrong - with facts, not bluster. Beyond that, I don't care what you - and/or any of the others in your "we" - use at your helms. I never have.

What matters is that readers be able see what's fact regarding this i-Device chartplotter solution - and what's pure bluster. I think that's crystal clear now. Where they decide to take that experience-based knowledge is completely up the them...as you say.


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## fcgleason (Sep 2, 2015)

Each to his own, I say.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Jim wrote a very nice, non confrontational, educational and succinct article. He shared his experience in a similar manner. He doesn’t proport to be a celebrity just a sailor. You don’t. Go away. Drop it. Be a gentleman. Take your zero sum courtroom mentality elsewhere. I know you think we are all idiots compared to your genius and our experience is meaningless compared to your extensive heroic life on the water but it gets old. There’s a delightful, comradely passage of thoughts, knowledge and experience then you come along and thread becomes a dogfight. The past does predict the future. Even putting you on ignore isn’t helpful as you take up so much bandwidth.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

fcgleason said:


> Each to his own, I say.


Agreed.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Oh so THAT'S what that other iPad thread was about - where I was accused of lying, and being irresponsible, and putting my children at risk, and being told that "real" sailors only use MFDs, and being called other lovely names for reporting back what I'd found regarding the iPad as chartplotter, just like Jim above - both of us from first hand experience.
> 
> So, who was driving the wedge again there Chef? Let me refresh your memory - you use the word "we" in your post above.
> 
> ...


Again you don't fail . Like I said you always feel you have to get the last word. That whole personal rant has nothing to do with the thread subject. Transparency is not your forte.

Since you keep bringing up that other thread ( notice no one else has or does) , would it be fair to say that you and Only you wound up being suspended for your actions. So to take a page from you as you like to bolden fonts* . Is that what you consider rewriting history.*Stop defending the indefensible and move on. Stop looking for some kind of conspiracy against you. You are slowly edging back to what got you in trouble before. Going after people with your animosity toward them it is inevitable you'll get banned again just like you have from other sailing sites.

Like I said the only validity you represent is that you actually had that setup in person, That credibility holds water. Just like every other poster who has real time experience does. Just like every other person with a MSD device who has weighed in with their first hand experience. No one is changing anyone's mind here Daddy. Only you keep Attemting to ridicule those who don't agree with your point of view. But that's you pattern in almost every thread you post in.

We are all sailors here. Most of us post read here to share our own personal experiences, learn from each other, and yes some of actually get out from behind the screen and meet in person and share stories and knowledge.

Personally I have seen some great posts on this thread concerning experiences with I Pads as well as Chartplotter.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> Jim wrote a very nice, non confrontational, educational and succinct article. He shared his experience in a similar manner. He doesn't proport to be a celebrity just a sailor. You don't. Go away. Drop it. Be a gentleman. Take your zero sum courtroom mentality elsewhere. I know you think we are all idiots compared to your genius and our experience is meaningless compared to your extensive heroic life on the water but it gets old. There's a delightful, comradely passage of thoughts, knowledge and experience then you come along and thread becomes a dogfight. The past does predict the future. Even putting you on ignore isn't helpful as you take up so much bandwidth.


I suggest the software of this site be updated to allow one to press the like button, up to 1000 times. You're spot on, sir.

There is definitely a re-write of history being attempted here, by a clever marketing campaign to suggest he was the victim. If it goes unchallenged, facts might change for those that only read the new accusations. Also, for someone who argued incessantly that miles don't matter (when he had few), includes his miles in his posts, routinely (now that's he's made a single long coastal passage). There seems to be desperate need to be seen as an expert.

The mods made a huge mistake. For that matter, I've seen a couple of inquiries that could have been answered by former posters here, who were genuinely experts in the field of the question, but left over this nonsense. It's a real shame.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

One upsmanship is not an attractive quality.

Clearly the most valuable opinions are from people with hands on experiences whether with gear or types of rigs or motors or maintenance.... and engineers who design these things.

My own opinions are very narrowly based on my 3+ decades of sailing the same boat with a few deliveries tossed in there... and the conditions I have sailed - coastal NE, the Eastern Caribbean, N South America and the Canaries... and a few upgrades in gear and electronics.

I share my experience which may or may not be useful to others on the forum. I also like to read and learn from experiences of others... so that I can apply them to my sailing situation. So if I want to get a GPS tracker... I will ask or read what others have and use this to inform my decisions. It's that or advertising or some salesman at a West Marine.

There is a lot of wisdom here... and it's freely shared. That to me is the essence of this forum - Sailing safety and enjoyment.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SanderO said:


> Clearly the most valuable opinions are from people with hands on experiences whether with gear or types of rigs or motors or maintenance.... and engineers who design these things.
> 
> I also like to read and learn from experiences of others... so that I can apply them to my sailing situation.
> 
> There is a lot of wisdom here... and it's freely shared.


Well-stated Sander.

So since this thread seems to be spinning in the same old direction with the same old group of dudes - I'll take my leave for now unless readers have any other questions or comments about the iPad chartplotter (the subject of the thread). I'm always willing to help if people are serious about it.

I'll have the next GeekZone video on this up soon - showing its hands-on use in all kinds of conditions, its features, how radar works as a flip-screen with the chartplotter, how we wired it all together on our boat, etc.

It's pretty cool stuff.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Back to the OP...

Even if a pad can get all the data/info that an MFD can... and I don't know or doubt that it is possible simple to do or will be in the not too distant future... The issue for me is how ergonomic or lack of it does this interface have?

My first in the cockpit GPS chart plotter was was the Garmin iQue 3600... seen below on the coach roof in its unfixed charging cradle... and in the second photo down below on the deck in front of the Ray C 90 and a Horizon CP170. My bad photography.... sorry. Third phoot is the B&G Zeus 7 which replaced the iQue and has a portable mount in the little used winch socket..(basically the standard mount bracket screwed to a 7/16" square alum rod. CP170 is not much of an MFD... more of a chart plotter. It came before the C 90 and left in place as a back up. Its spot in the nav station will be given to an AIS vision one of these days (maybe).

You can see the relative screen size and brightness. The iQue is actually quite viewable in the cockpit. I began use of the iQue in yr 2000! and still have it. Came with Blue Charts.

That mounting was no good enough for bumpy conditions... and so I would take it from the cradle and hold it with my left hand and enter commands with the stylus or finger with the right. You can see it has 5 useful command buttons.

Zeus is more stable but I now wedge a piece of noodle under it to keep it from rotating. For the cockpit I actually prefer the user interface of the iQue because on use zoom and pan. I can also take it with me to the back of the cockpit in my pocket and use it as reference to real world. So it is more handy! I did use a velcro mount for a while and it worked fine.

NG I don't use all the features these devices offer. I can steer to a waypoint using the heading line alone and the set and drift is apparent as it is not "co-linear" with the course made good "bread crumb" track line. If I see this happening I aim set the AP on a course to the left or right of the mark... making the course line on the imaginary rhumb line. Basic stuff, simple for course I can motor or sail with cooperating wind angles.

In reality I don't interface manually much with the cockpit devices and rarely with a course tweak on the AP. Very simple, yet powerful.

My S7 active has Navionics and a brighter screen and more "power" and apps such as my radar. Only missing is local radar and AIS. The former is useful perhaps more than the AIS because not all local boats are AIS targets but all local boats are radar targets.

If I could easily get radar and AIS onto the Zeus or the Galaxy I would love that!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Sander - a lot of this will be covered in my upcoming video, but I can address some of your questions below...



SanderO said:


> Back to the OP...
> 
> Even if a pad can get all the data/info that an MFD can... and I don't know or doubt that it is possible simple to do or will be in the not too distant future... The issue for me is how ergonomic or lack of it does this interface have?


I don't know what all would be on your list of data/info - but, even on my iPad2 I definitely get all the data I had on past chartplotters...from all typical data/info (beyond the chart itself) regarding position, boat speed, direction, heading, COG, SOG, STW, true/magnetic bearings, VMG, XTE, you name it.

Then you add in all the NMEA boat instrumentation from the other onboard systems and I have boatspeed, wind, depth, battery bank SOC, water/air temp, etc....as well as AP repeater, and interactive AIS target overlay on my chart. And you can optionally use that same NMEA input for anything else you want to feed into it like engine temp, fuel, etc.

Finally, as repeatedly stated above, you now also have radar with the Furuno 1st Watch - which can be used on this same iPad in "flip-screen" mode as I'll show in my video.

Again, the above is only a partial list. Within iNavX you can have GRIB and Theyr weather overlays, anchor alarm, tides, etc. Then as, you've also mentioned above, add on all the other iOS apps available for various marine usage and you've got an incredibly powerful tool.

And this is - at a minimum because it's just off the top of my head - what is available today - *now*.

What's missing?










For quick comparison, let's take the "flagship" Garmin GPSMAP® 8617 MFD at $7,500K (just for the MFD unit itself) and look at a few of its specs compared to a new iPad 128G at $550...

Here are the bullet-points for the 8617:


Premium 17-inch full HD display with pinch-to-zoom touchscreen control has highest resolution on the marine market
 Configure the full system to provide 1-touch setting access for docking, cruising, fishing, anchoring and more
 Beautiful glass helm look with ability to install multiple displays either flush or flat mounted edge-to-edge
 High-performance processor delivers our fastest map drawing ever and enhanced video processing
 Add Array or Dome Radar
 Full System Integration/Built-in Connectivity
 FUSION-Link Entertainment System

So, let's take a look at each one...

*17-inch full HD display*
So, right off the bat it's obviously a MUCH bigger screen - 8" more to be exact. So, I suppose the first question to ask is how big you want the screen on your chartplotter?

Now, keep in mind that the concept behind these units is what's called the "glass helm" and it's marketed this way...










I (and I have a hunch most of us) wouldn't have a 17" display of any kind at the helm of a sailboat for sure. But it might be nice to have one down below to impress the chicks. So in that case, I would buy an AppleTV device for $150 and plug it into the HDMI port on our bulkhead mounted 32" flatscreen. This lets me repeat what's on my iPad at the helm in high-def. So, you now have the helm chartplotter displayed on the big screen below...and way bigger than 17".

*1-touch setting *
From their marketing video, this appears to be a means of setting a view mode on the MFD and assigning that layout a name. For example, if you like split-screen chartplotter/radar, you can save that mode to your name and automatically bring it up with a single click. You can't yet do that with the iPad/INavX set-up.

Additionally, this seems to extend to any of the other synced Garmin MFDs you have on the same backbone - which is awesome, but obviously* insanely* expensive to build out.

Finally, it appears that Garmin is now using ActiveCaptain as the defacto mobile interface with all their MFDs. Now, I've already made a great video as to why that in itself is scary - but let's stick with the point here. In this scenario, your mobile device is simply a repeater of your MFD. That can be good in some ways, but it can also be very bad.

For example, if the central MFD goes down - everything goes down. Your mobile devices have nothing to repeat. With the i-device solution we use, every iPad and iPhone is an independent MFD. And every on of them has multiple sources of power (internal battery, house power, solar charge capability, etc.). MUCH more redundant.

So, I'm okay giving up the 1-touch syncing for FAR less cost and FAR more safety.

*Beautiful glass helm look*
I'm not really going for a "look". And I'm CERTAINLY not going to be paying $15K for that "look" Garmin is selling. Maybe that's just me. That said, the iPad is pretty damn nice looking...with incredible functionality...and $550.

*High-performance processor delivers our fastest map drawing ever and enhanced video processing*
Now Garmin doesn't seem to list their actual processor. However, the iPad's processor is a 64-bit A9 chip - and I DEFINITELY don't think the Garmin 8617 is going to get anywhere close to that. As for fast map-drawing, even in the marketing video, the panning and zooming is nowhere near as smooth as the iPad. And there's not a whole lot out there that can hold a candle to the iPad's video processing.

So, if these things are important to you, the iPad hammers the Garmin 8617. Of course, you'd expect that since one is a true multi-function device and the other is a chartplotter with some extras.

BUT - it should make you stop and think about where chartplotting is headed - and where iPad already is.

*Add Array or Dome Radar*
No different than with the iPad. And doing both with the iPad and Furuno 1st Watch, you've spent less than $1500.

*Full System Integration/Built-in Connectivity*
We've already discussed this above. Same with the iPad. All that's needed is an iMux and you're done.

*FUSION-Link Entertainment System*
The iPad already has ALL that built in...and much more.

+++++=

So, again, I know that the Garmin GPSMAP® 8617 MFD is FAR beyond anything most sailors around here would ever consider having on their boat. But, when you realize what the premium offerings are in these flagship MFD products - and the fact that *most of them already exist in the iPad*, and in many cases FAR surpass the quality and capability of that $7,500 unit - you begin to understand the appeal.

One last point that has been brought up a lot for having a "purpose-built, marinized waterproof unit affixed at the helm" being far superior to the iPad solution we have...

...the iPad in the LifeProof case that we have affixed at our helm has a higher IP rating than this Garmin GPSMAP® 8617 MFD. So there's that.

As always, pick whatever you want. But when you start looking at the ACTUAL facts surrounding this gear, it gets interesting to say the least.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

We have lots of data on Plotters and integrated Radar. In fact lots of users here can give first hand reports on them. Did you actually use the wireless Furuno on your Hunter when you had it?

One of my perceived advantages of a MSD device is can superimpose the radar picture over the land and also the AIS ships. Can the Furuno do that? 

Anyone here have a new Furuno wireless. Can we have a first hand unbiased report of its reliability.


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## granche1 (Sep 6, 2007)

I am a firm believer in I pad navigation. I am about 5 years and 1/3 of the way into a circumnavigation. I have not turned on my garmin or furuno chartplotters in years. Once I figured out how easy the I pad solution was, instead of buying chart cards for my plotters, I just bought another Ipad and lifeproof case as a back up. I have accurate AIS and easily fetch-able grib data overlayed on my i navx charts while in the middle of the pacific ocean. Lifeproof cases have been perfectly effective at protecting the ipads during all sorts of stormy and inclement conditions. I mount the Ipad at the helm so it gets plenty wet. When I want to go below, I can just take it down there with me and never wonder if we are still on course. It is so easy, redundant, flexible, and affordable that I dont understand why anyone would ever purchase a dedicated chart plotter. I am convinced that soon, only luxury yachts will have a stand alone chart plotter system. My recommendation is to not waste you money on one. Just get an extra Ipad.

Grant

s/v

Viandante


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Sounds great. Glad that it works for the type of sailing you do

How do you deal with radar? What kind do you have?

Love those PSC37.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

granche1 said:


> I am a firm believer in I pad navigation. I am about 5 years and 1/3 of the way into a circumnavigation. I have not turned on my garmin or furuno chartplotters in years. Once I figured out how easy the I pad solution was, instead of buying chart cards for my plotters, I just bought another Ipad and lifeproof case as a back up. I have accurate AIS and easily fetch-able grib data overlayed on my i navx charts while in the middle of the pacific ocean. Lifeproof cases have been perfectly effective at protecting the ipads during all sorts of stormy and inclement conditions. I mount the Ipad at the helm so it gets plenty wet. When I want to go below, I can just take it down there with me and never wonder if we are still on course. It is so easy, redundant, flexible, and affordable that I dont understand why anyone would ever purchase a dedicated chart plotter. I am convinced that soon, only luxury yachts will have a stand alone chart plotter system. My recommendation is to not waste you money on one. Just get an extra Ipad.
> 
> Grant
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback, Grant. It's good to hear from guys like you out there doing it. And I'm with you. I'll certainly never buy an MFD again.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

So, how do you guys interface your iPad's with a Pactor III modem?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> So, how do you guys interface your iPad's with a Pactor III modem?


Heh-heh. Troublemaker.

I'm amazed that they even make those things anymore. It's like an $1,800 fax machine of the seas...










As for integration with an iPad - you carefully throw the Pactor III modem overboard and celebrate the freedom and cost savings of newer, better technologies.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

So, to convert to your iPad based system, I need to scrap my ICOM SSB? That's going to add a couple thousand dollars to the cost of the iPad. Then, I suppose that you communicate via a Sat phone? Just because you're new to an integrated navigation suite doesn't mean the rest of us are.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

George sooner or later he’ll find out there are days the satphone doesn’t work and others it’s the SSB. He’ll also find out its real nice to chat on a cruiser net with friends or with new folks. Or maybe he’ll end up like so many kids texting across the table to their sibs. 
Been hearing SSB is dead for over a decade now. Not surprisingly it isn’t. When out cruising more often on it than the sat phone. Keeps our satellite bill ~500/yr. Have friends with no SSB they went KVH / trac. Spend more than a boat payment/month and can’t chat except on the vhf.
It’s interesting the chartplotter vendors see the future. Even back in 2013 the hard wired systems allowed WiFi interface to all our phones and pads. It’s nice to have full access wherever you are in the boat.


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## granche1 (Sep 6, 2007)

Hi everyone. For radar I have a furuno 32k. It is pretty old and uses a lot of power so I rarely use it at sea but sometimes find it somewhat usefull to help dodge fishing boats. I have considered removing my radar but am intrigued by the wireless system that I saw in this thread. I have never heard of that before and if it works, that would be pretty sweet. 

I have an Icom 802 and pactor that I use for general ship to ship coms, email, and downloading weather data to my laptop for use in programs such as Predict Wind Offshore. To get whether data onto the Ipad, I use an Iridum satphone and the Access Point modem. Other options are the Optimizer or the iridium go. I can use Predict Wind Offshore on the Ipad if I grab the data with the satphone. In general, I have found that logging into the WWW to get weather data is quicker, easier, and more reliable when using the sat phone than when using the ssb pactor combo to access sailmail. I try to use the sailmail primarily though due to its lower data cost and my preference to type on a keyboard and view weather data on the larger spatop screen. I like having both options due to the redundancy. Recently, single-handing halfway between Fiji and the Marshalls, while trying repeatedly to log into the distant sailmail ground station, my 802 let the magic smoke out and I was really glad I had the redundant system. The sat phone system is another $1000 to add to your coms package but the ability to call a doctor and have them walk you through a first aid procedure sure seems worth it to me. I enjoy using the SSB to stay in touch with other cruisers, engage in nets, monitor weather broadcasts, and communicate via email. The SSB adds to the cruising experience. There is something nostalgic about hearing all the beeps and bloops squelching out of my SSB as it connects with a far distant ground station, but in an emergency, I think that I would choose the sat phone to really get me through the ****. If and when data costs come down, I think that satellite based systems will become far more popular than the radio based systems. For ship to ship and socializing, ssb is certainly the way to go. As far as robustness goes, an ipad in a proper case and a satphone, seem to be much more weatherized than the pactor laptop combo. Ask me how I know!

Grant

s/v

Viandante


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> So, to convert to your iPad based system, I need to scrap my ICOM SSB? That's going to add a couple thousand dollars to the cost of the iPad. Then, I suppose that you communicate via a Sat phone? Just because you're new to an integrated navigation suite doesn't mean the rest of us are.


No - of course not. I was joking.

Why would you have to scrap your modem? Remember, my POV in all this is trying to keep all the systems that you already have on your boat (as much as possible) and integrate those systems - *in the context of a chartplotter* which is the focus of this thread.

So, in this context, I think the more important question is what does the SSB/Modem bring to your current chartplotter functionality? And, then beyond that, are there other i-device alternatives that will give you the same or improved comms functionality of these legacy systems for less cost/complexity IF you're going to be buying new stuff FOR this functionality (the flip-side of this POV)?

So, I'm not advocating getting rid of anything you've got if it works for you. I'm just looking at other ways to do these same things.

In that vein and specific to this thread, I'm honestly not sure what the SSB/modem combo gives you in relation to *chartplotter* functionality - even on your boat now. If it does I'm interested to know about that type of integration.

*To be clear, I've never used either device, and I'm certainly no HAM guru and have ZERO interest in being one, but...*my understanding of the technology is that you are, at a very basic level and as described above, using the SSB for long-range voice communications (like HAM radio) and adding to that the modem for data tone transmission/reception technology (a-la fax, dial-up) ...for pulling down gribs, sending/receiving emails, etc.

So again, if you're adding an iPad into your current mix as a chartplotter and integrating it with your onboard systems that already integrate *with* a chartplotter (be that a modern MFD, or an older device) as we've been discussing here - the SSB/Modem doesn't really play a role in this - so it doesn't apply to chartplotting functions. This is why I was joking about it above.

BUT, where it starts getting more interesting is how the iPad and other pieces of this set-up *COULD *provide this same comms/data functionality...but via that chartplotter device at your helm...kind of a SuperMFD.

For example, let's first look at the modem. This is one of Farallon's more "hip" models...the DR-7403 P4dragon PACTOR 4 Modem & Class 1 Bluetooth at $1,650...










It's "hip" because the bluetooth allows you to receive/transmit data to an i-Device or other PC/Mac without the need for serial cables or something worse. So, what you're basically doing is using an app on these devices as the interface for this data which is being sent wirelessly from the modem...right? Definitely right up the alley of what we've been discussing here.

Well, let's take a couple of those data functions and look at i-device alternatives. First, I assume one of the most important roles of the above modem in sailing is pulling down weather forecasts. On the i-Device side you have an app called HF Weather Fax for $5.










And here is what it does...



> Description
> 
> Do you want to get your weather charts without using an internet connection or a dedicated computer? HF Weather Fax lets you receive marine weather radiofascimile transmissions, using the audio from your HF marine radio. Just set it next to the radio's speaker or headphones, tune in a weather fax frequency, and watch the images come in. The app can also receive audio from Bluetooth audio devices.
> 
> ...


So, in this scenario, haven't you accomplished the same thing as using your Pactor Modem to pull this weather data? If so, you've saved a hell of a lot of money.

PLUS, as is widely known, you can get this same weather fax tone with a low-cost SSB receiver - so you've potentially saved MUCH more money for this function, by not needing *either* the high-end SSB *or* the modem.

The next piece for the modem side is email as discussed above. Now, I don't know if there is an app for translating email to tones that you could use in this modem format to transmit over SSB. There may be one - I just won't be researching that as I'm not really interested being that I'll likely never have a Pactor Modem or SSB.

But, let's go ahead and say that that IS something you lose by not having the Pactor Modem. Is that a deal killer? Again, that depends on many things - including whether or not you already have one.

For me, as regards comparing this "non-integrated" legacy system with the iPad-centric set-up to give me all the same functionality and more - that's where the Iridium GO! makes FAR more sense for ALL these SSB/Modem functions above...










It is already *$900 less* than just the DR-7403 P4dragon modem alone. AND it gives you all the primary communications capability of the SSB - but is far more consistent and reliable with a FAR broader reach.

You can easily email back and forth anywhere in the world (or whatever else you want to do with "internet-based" functions) via any of your computers or i-devices. I even have that email capability on my InReach device (far cheaper than the GO!) I have now. But, more importantly I think, you can pull down FAR more comprehensive weather information via the Iridium GO! and its PredictWind integration - directly onto your iPad (or other device) - at the helm or anywhere else you want it.

So, if you look at these *functions* of the SSB/Modem and how you can do the same things, only better, with the iPad and the Iridium GO! - it then comes down to cost and other secondary considerations like chatting on a cruisers net or whatever. But when you keep stacking all this functionality (comms, chartplotting, media, boat systems monitoring, AIS, etc.) on top of the others via the iPad, it starts getting far more interesting.

On the Farallon Electronic site, you're going to spend ~$3,500 for the Icom IC-M802 SSB and Modem equipment shown above.

Price out the iPad-centric set-up I've run through above and compare costs. Yes, all of your "data" on the SSB/Modem side will "always be free" (a common argument for this tech) - and yes, you DO have to pay for what you use on the iPad/Iridium GO! side - but I think you'll find that it's pretty much a wash - at least for a good long while of usage. However, it's FAR less up-front costs for the latter solution - while giving you FAR more capability and quality over the long haul vs the former solution.

Finally, though I know the Icom IC-M802 has built-in email capability (no need for the modem with this radio for the above functions), the other question in all this as we bring it back to the *chartplotting* is AIS. With the SH GX2200 I mentioned above you have that AIS overlay capability on the iPad. So when I was considering all of the above, especially as it related to a radio - I went with the AIS capability first. Then relied on satellite tech for my long-range coms.

All of this is why I probably won't ever be purchasing an SSB - and DEFINITELY not a freakin' modem. And it's why I made the joke I did. And, by all means, if someone wants to buy and maintain *both* systems for added safety - I say go for it. No problem. I just would likely never go that route.

What other ciritical capabilities on the SSB/Modem side am I missing?


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Question to current users:
What size of screen on the iPad do you consider most practical?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

The ongoing costs of a sat phone I beleive are substantial and are not trivial. Especially if they are you only form of communication or data reception.

For those of you who are long range cruisers what is your Sat phone usage yearly ($) 
Do you use it for e mail, weather?

SSB costs yearly are virtually nil. SSB is while slow and cumbersome are tried and true. 

Sat phone for emergency is a very positive thing.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

krisscross said:


> Question to current users:
> What size of screen on the iPad do you consider most practical?


Hey kriss - as you know, I have the iPad2 (9.7" like the current iPad) as well as a newer iPad Mini (7.9" retina display). I like the larger display. It's kind of luxurious. And you can see it in the photos of our helm above for general sizing. But I could probably get by with the Mini display size if I didn't have that kind of space.

To me the more important aspect of the newer models is the brightness and higher resolution of the retina displays (versus our older iPad2). I just went with the iPad2 so that I could buy a couple of them used and not be out a lot of money if one went down due to water damage/etc. Now that I've used it so much with no problems, I'm not as worried about that issue now.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Guess you don’t have many friends smack. One of the joys of the SSB is chatting with folks. Don’t see how the Go or the fax line allow that. Or am I missing something. Agree with granchi redundancy is a great thing on a boat. We have and use both. Have had occasion with both the GO and globalstar where they could not get a satellite link. So beyond simple breakage think having different technologies is a good idea. Just like the significant number of boats with a vane and an AP. Sure you could put two APs on the boat but after a lightning strike or the batteries failing you have two non functional devices.
As an aside really impressed with the recent b&g products. Fully integrated boat. Starting to think what screen you’re looking at isn’t that important be it mfd or pad but rather the functionally and robustness of the whole system. Even now most boats are using both and commonly beyond mirroring the hard wired system running a different set of nav/weather suppliers simultaneously on different screens.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Would mention one of the things I like about having nav on the pad is in a lightening storm you can put it in the microwave or a metal box and have nav info afterward. Good thing for those in Florida or other lightning prone regions.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> Guess you don't have many friends smack. One of the joys of the SSB is chatting with folks. Don't see how the Go or the fax line allow that. Or am I missing something. Agree with granchi redundancy is a great thing on a boat. We have and use both. Have had occasion with both the GO and globalstar where they could not get a satellite link. So beyond simple breakage think having different technologies is a good idea. Just like the significant number of boats with a vane and an AP. Sure you could put two APs on the boat but after a lightning strike or the batteries failing you have two non functional devices.
> As an aside really impressed with the recent b&g products. Fully integrated boat. Starting to think what screen you're looking at isn't that important be it mfd or pad but rather the functionally and robustness of the whole system. Even now most boats are using both and commonly beyond mirroring the hard wired system running a different set of nav/weather suppliers simultaneously on different screens.


I'm not sure why your group always feels the need to make it personal, out. I don't really do that to you guys but you certainly keep at it with me. Unless I have something specific to say to one of you based on a comment you've made, which I'll typically quote, I try to ignore these continual shots as I've done with the last several above. Now, I wouldn't have acknowledged this one except I think you make an interesting point for this discussion...

I've spoken _ad nauseam_ about redundancy and how that's a great thing. But I think it can be a bit much...in many ways.

For example, if you were to go the "traditional" route and do the full B&G "integrated" system AND the SSB/Modem combo you'd be looking at a crap-ton of money.

Just looking at these "integrated" B&G components here:

https://www.bandg.com/bg/activity/bluewater-cruising/

You're at roughly $7,500 with a lower-end Zeus touch-screen MFD about the same screen-size as the iPad. Then you need to add another $2,000 for radar - $4,000 for a lower-and AP - then another $3K for transducers - then ~$5,000 for installation, etc.

So, you're now at around $22,000 for this integrated system. Then you tack on the SSB/Modem combo and you're now at around *$25,000+*. And you'll probably *still *want satellite comms...AND mobile devices that repeat your new B&G system. Now maybe *$30,000*?

I, and I think most other sailors, just don't see the upside here if we're talking used boats. Especially not if I can get almost ALL the same capability with our iPad setup for exponentially less...to your point about it not being about the screen you're looking at, but the *functionality* we're talking about.

So, how far do you take the idea of "true integration" and "layered redundancies"? As far as your wallet will take you I suppose. I just don't see the practicality of it. I don't think I'll add a windvane to our upcoming cat...though I certainly like the tech for monos. It makes sense where it makes sense.

As for my communicating, like much of today's youth, most of my banter with friends and family is via texts, emails, etc. I'm not much for extended chatting on the phone or the radio. And my friends and family are okay with that. It's not a "zero-sum-game". Remember?

I'd much rather just hang out with people in the cockpit or on the beach than try to talk over several others on any radio device in an anchorage or offshore. As you know, I'm just not much into the Salty Dawg way of cruising. But that's just me. For my means of comms with friends and family sat tech works just great.


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## granche1 (Sep 6, 2007)

chef2sail. My sat phone data usage is about $500 / year. In reality I actually only ever use half of the data that comes on a 200 minuet card before the one year time limit hits so i end up wasting half the data. I do primarily use my icom/pactor combo for emails and general weather data since I like the idea of saving my sat data for an emergency. I think the sailmail account costs $250/year. I recall 1 or 2 times when I have had to wait an hour to get a signal with the sat phone. With my SSB, there are vast stretches of the day where the propagation is so bad that I cant get a lock to the sailmail servers for half a day. Perhaps this is related to where in the pacific my system is broadcasting from. SSB is a whole world of voodoo that takes quite a bit more understanding than plug and play sat systems, at least in my experience. 

This Ipad subject seems to be a bit heated for some reason. I am going to go out on a limb and propose that some of this friction might be generational. I am 40 now and when I started cruising 7 or so years ago, I was already familiar with ipads though not the marine applications. The chartploters that came with my boat are circa 2001. I found that the ipad was simply much more intuitive for me to learn how to use. Additionally, the cost of purchasing charts of the south pacific for the legacy plotters was going to cost more than an entire extra ipad loaded with all of the charts I would need for a circumnavigation of the world. I basically learned how to sail in the newish world of tablets. My intuition tells me that many of the older generation who have been sailing for 40 years already are invested in the way that they learned to do things. I would imagine that a similar dynamic played out when everyone switched from sextants to loran to gps. My grandfather used to have a depth sounder that actually printed the contours of the ocean floor on a sheet of paper. The Ipad is definitely a disruptive piece of technology for the marine chartplotter industry to grapple with. I sometimes feel bad for these companies that have invested so much into providing us with recreational marine nav systems. I feel bad until I realize how much money they are trying to charge for systems that can be perfectly replicated with a tablet for a fraction of the cost. If my Garmin plotter did not have a custom mahogany cabinet built around it I would remove it from the boat. It is that useless in light of what I can do with my Ipad. 

Grant

s/v Viandante


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Turns out - if someone REALLY wanted to do it, they could probably come up with an iOS app for sending/receiving SailMail via SSB and/or Pactor modem. This guy already built an HTML-5 prototype for text-to-modem-audio encoding...

https://martinmelhus.com/web-audio-modem/

...and the encoder demo...

https://martme.github.io/webaudio-modem/encoder.html

Interesting ideas - but kind of like using an iPhone as a flyswatter I think.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Agree some of this is generational and slow v early adopters. Further agree much of the capabilities of recent mfds is overkill and not necessary to get from point A to B. Still if you have the opportunity to get on the bridge of new long range power boats or large one off sailboats it’s an eye opener. As said before designers are designing systems to produce an integrated boat making full use of mobile and fixed position screens. Often resulting in all functions (lighting, HVAC, music, entertainment screens, communication, nav, steering, monitoring,security, sail trim or prop pitch/ throttle etc.) available on whatever screen you choose. Many of these boats have no wheel at the helm.
In terms of this discussion either msds or pads will serve. Both have limitations. Beyond issues of expense both have strengths. Like many on a small boat we carry and use both. Now see few boats of any size not making use of a local WiFi network or Bluetooth or some sort of lan


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

The user interface decisions include:

screen resolution
access to commands... virtual buttons or real
How much data can fit on the screen
your eye sight and distance from screen

I don't use my eye glasses in normal daylight conditions... but using a mobile device or looking a chart plotter screen will not be clear enough to read without glasses. Zoom helps of text scales.

I don't see much advantage to screens more than 9" diagonal of you are close enough to touch the device to control it.. and maybe a bit smaller.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

granche1 said:


> chef2sail. My sat phone data usage is about $500 / year. In reality I actually only ever use half of the data that comes on a 200 minuet card before the one year time limit hits so i end up wasting half the data. I do primarily use my icom/pactor combo for emails and general weather data since I like the idea of saving my sat data for an emergency. I think the sailmail account costs $250/year. I recall 1 or 2 times when I have had to wait an hour to get a signal with the sat phone. With my SSB, there are vast stretches of the day where the propagation is so bad that I cant get a lock to the sailmail servers for half a day. Perhaps this is related to where in the pacific my system is broadcasting from. SSB is a whole world of voodoo that takes quite a bit more understanding than plug and play sat systems, at least in my experience.
> 
> This Ipad subject seems to be a bit heated for some reason. I am going to go out on a limb and propose that some of this friction might be generational. I am 40 now and when I started cruising 7 or so years ago, I was already familiar with ipads though not the marine applications. The chartploters that came with my boat are circa 2001. I found that the ipad was simply much more intuitive for me to learn how to use. Additionally, the cost of purchasing charts of the south pacific for the legacy plotters was going to cost more than an entire extra ipad loaded with all of the charts I would need for a circumnavigation of the world. I basically learned how to sail in the newish world of tablets. My intuition tells me that many of the older generation who have been sailing for 40 years already are invested in the way that they learned to do things. I would imagine that a similar dynamic played out when everyone switched from sextants to loran to gps. My grandfather used to have a depth sounder that actually printed the contours of the ocean floor on a sheet of paper. The Ipad is definitely a disruptive piece of technology for the marine chartplotter industry to grapple with. I sometimes feel bad for these companies that have invested so much into providing us with recreational marine nav systems. I feel bad until I realize how much money they are trying to charge for systems that can be perfectly replicated with a tablet for a fraction of the cost. If my Garmin plotter did not have a custom mahogany cabinet built around it I would remove it from the boat. It is that useless in light of what I can do with my Ipad.
> 
> ...


As someone who got his first boat in 1971 and has progressed through multiple generations of electronic aids to navigation, I wouldn't agree totally with your "generational" comment in the way you put it.

First of all, I never did celestial, but my first time out of sight of land was on a boat with RDF. It was later that I progressed to LORAN and then to GPS and then to three generations of plotter/chartplotter and two generations of AP--and don't forget the RADAR increment, with everything integrated, starting about 20 years ago. Perhaps 7 or 8 years ago, I began supplementing the built-ins with handheld GPS and iPad/iPhone chart plotters. The multiple, wholesale electronic upgrades were a result of 2 lighting strikes 10 years apart. (I am 2 years from the next scheduled strike!)

All that said, the real generational issue for me is the experience I've gained over the years with the occasional scary event. The younger crowd hasn't had the experiences of us older folks, so how would they know? One example occurred during and end of season regatta, when the predicted 20 kt winds turned to 45-50 kts in 15 minutes on the ocean side of Fishers Island. I had brand new sails and hadn't fully checked them out, only to find that the reef points were wrong. I ended up beating with a single reef in a sail that could not be flattened. We were getting the first set of lifelines in the water. My lower full length batten exited at some point as I was struggling to stay on my feet with no realistic chance of going forward to put a second reef in (hadn't rigged the jacklines and it was just the wife and I onboard) Plan B was to thread the reef between Fishers Island and Watch Hill, but I needed to be sure of where I was on the approach and reef passage. I had all I could do to read my installed MFD and finger the hard buttons to zoom in and out. Wearing glasses didn't help, nor did the spray on the MFD display. I couldn't imagine handling a touch screen under those conditions. Well, we made it through the narrow Wicapesset passage on a broach reach in winds that had subsided to 37-39 kts--hoping not to have any sudden wind shifts. When all was said and done, we made it back without any damage that wasn't covered under our North Sails warranty. Nothing else broke, luckily. Obviously, there were several lessons to be learned from this experience, including testing your stuff before YOU are put to the test. My built-in MFD with hard buttons was the real hero in this story, though.

My takeaway for this discussion is that you will never convince an old guy who has seen some nasty stuff that a portable device is a substitute for a marine-grade, integrated built-in when the going gets tough. Those times might be 1% of your sailing, but it may really matter then. For the same reason, I would never again trust a wheel pilot over my below-deck AP when things get nasty. Of course, I carry and exercise my portable electronics, but they have only a fraction of the features of the integrated system. And yes, I actually found my portable backups comforting on at least one occasion--perhaps 1% of my sailing time.

So, getting back to the "generational" comment, you might not want to put down your elders, who may have more savvy than you understand. You may opt for the iPad chartplotter as a matter of cost, but


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

fallard said:


> So, getting back to the "generational" comment, you might not want to put down your elders, who may have more savvy than you understand.


All preferences aside - I think you have to be looking *real* hard to see *any* kind of "put down" in Grant's post. There's no reason to manufacture confrontation if none is there. After all your statement...



fallard said:


> My takeaway for this discussion is that you will never convince an old guy who has seen some nasty stuff that a portable device is a substitute for a marine-grade, integrated built-in when the going gets tough.


...sure sounds a lot like his statement...



granche1 said:


> My intuition tells me that many of the older generation who have been sailing for 40 years already are invested in the way that they learned to do things.


Again, the focus of this topic is not on "rip your stuff out you're doing it wrong" - it's "if you're going to upgrade your system, this i-device solution is definitely worth considering". Why? Because it has a lot to offer - much of which IS better than older and/or much more expensive solutions...if you take a serious look at it.

I think this has been the disconnect in this topic of conversation from the beginning. There's just a lot of defensiveness surrounding preference. I guess that's true with most new technology in areas of long-standing tradition and technique.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I've been watching this thread for some time. With great amusement. Who would have thought a thread on using a tablet for navigation would get more heated than a thread on which anchor to use? 

So here's my 2 cents. My current primary GPS is an old 5 inch Garmin that came with the boat when I bought it 8 years ago. Backup is a handheld Lowrance (with a chart chip). If the old Garmin should die, I would replace it with a new marine 5 or 7 inch unit from one of the usual suspects. Seeing those go for $300 to $600 today, I see that as easy decision. Especially since I can get one with "real" buttons. I really don't like touchscreens.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Again, the focus of this topic is not on "rip your stuff out you're doing it wrong" - it's "if you're going to upgrade your system, this i-device solution is definitely worth considering". Why? Because it has a lot to offer - much of which IS better than older solutions...if you take a serious look at it.



No , Daddy, the disconnect comes from the inability of some ( you) to understand that myself and others have looked at it and considered it and actually feel that it is not what we want. I don’t feel that it IS better than the tried and true currently used solution that I use. The putdown comes from you again in saying we have not taken a “serious” look at we in fact have and don’t agree with you

You continually refer to some as a group. The only group I see is people who differ in optinion from you. Again if you put people down continuously by using caps and boldened print to emphasize your point, you insult many I am sure. We are adults too.

Suffice it to say that many of the experts in this field of electronics ( your experience says you are not) and cruising ( you certainly have limited experience here) don’t find it necessary to post with the emphasis you use, or the subtle or not so subtle if you don’t agree with me you are wrong attitude.

We all understand what you personally used when you had your sailboat. You have posted it ad nauseum. You feel the need to keep counterpointing everyone who disagrees with that. I would venture to say if you added up the number of posts you have made in this thread alone it is perhaps 5 times the next closest poster in the thread. That is your MO in most threads. Volume However we have learned nothing new . Volume of posts doesn’t make any it so. 

I appreciate the posts of others, cruisers, Sander, Fallard, Cap, over, Minnie and everyone who has contributed to the thread so far. It has opened by eyes in some respects. Many use IPads and Fixed MFD in combination. Very few use only I. Pads or only MFD. There have been good, well thought out responses for the strengths and weaknesses of using either as a sole means. 

I embrace technology in spite of the fact I’ve sailed for over 40 years. I am not “stuck” on my choices just because I have always done it that way or that I am comfortable. In fact as Fallardpointed out only a “youngster” would not understand, as you didn’t live through that in that 40 years, many of us embraced change frequently as technolOgy developed. Those in that group lived through the paradigm shifts of Loran, then gps using satellites,. Does it makes us better sailors? Well. Yes and no. It gives us a broader experience than someone born later given the current rave/ flavor. Yes someone who lived that experience may know better what to do when the electronics fails you. Or it fails. And it will at some point. Experience teaches that. As Fallard pointed out he experienced two lightening hits...I have had one. So it does happen. 

Maybe the best thing mentioned was the redundancy of backups. What I see many of the experienced sailors saying here is that they won’t rely on only one way. For safety they invest in charts, MFD and I Pad. Talking about expense is a red herring thrown in there by Daddy to belittle those who practice true safety by not relying on only one means of navigation. Fallard again pointed that out with his example. Thank god he had redundancy. I have sailed that same passage. By Fishers a few times and a thirty knot wind with current is tough through there with narrow passages through rock reefs.

Multiple devices not connected through only one network seems to be the majority option which many on here seem to have. Chrtpltters and I Pads. Not just an I pad wireless network.Both.

Redundancy , using different ways to get the position and course seems to be the wAy most operate. To me that shows experience and the understanding that safety comes first . Again look carefully most of the experienced sailors here, old and young use both MFD. and I Pods. 
Safety trumps price, Safety trumps everything.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Chef - you should use whatever you want to use. Seriously. I support whatever works for you - just as you posted earlier should be the case. At the same time, I assume you don't still use Loran? Technology marches on and it's good to look at what's out there.

So, I'm not really doing this to convince you or anyone else in that same group of dudes who ran this around in the other thread. I honestly don't care what any of you guys want to use or do. Seriously.

I'm doing my part in this thread for *readers* who are interested in the *technology* - as I am. And who need to understand the facts and details to determine whether it's right for them or not. And I'm doing so as a professional technologist myself, from first-hand experience integrating it and using it - *and* by providing details from manufacturers and other experts...not just opinion.

When someone like Grant (or Jim) comes along with a great deal of experience both sailing and using this solution, and reports his own first-hand experience with that solution...*that's a very good thing*. He should not be accused of aggression that is not there... and/or "put down" as you've just done because of his youth. Why don't you guys hear him out, ask questions, and learn from his experience instead of getting in his face? How does that help Sailnet be a better place for discussing this kind stuff and making newer people feel like they can join in?

Again, this is not a "mine is bigger than yours"...or "zero-sum-game" kind of topic...as you yourself said a few posts ago. So stop making it a continual fight. Let's just discuss *the details* and see what comes out.

In that vein, what I mean with my comment about looking seriously at the iPad solution is that one really has to make very clear detailed comparisons and not generalized assumptions. Let me focus on one example...

There's lots of talk about "marinized", "built-for-purpose" traditional MFDs - with one emphasis in this area being on how it performs in seriously wet rain, spray/dunking from waves, etc. So between the following options, which is the best "marinized" solution in this area?

GPSMAP® 8617 MFD ($7,500)









Our iPad in its LifeProof Nuud case ($250)...









or...

B&G Zeus³ 12 ($3,500)









Knowing the answer to this question helps readers interpret comments and claims about both traditional MFDs and iPad solutions in these discussions. Whichever solution above provides the best protection against this particular marine threat should be acknowledged as such.

And this is just one of many, many details that actually have very clear answers (from storage, to screen resolution, to breadth of capabilities, to processing speed, to methods of securing, to visibility, etc.) if you just dig into it.

So, I'm not interested in swaying opinion around here. I'm interested in providing facts. That's why I spend the time I do pulling this information together. Hopefully readers out there appreciate it.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

There is wisdom in having a knowledgeable person present features, attributes, benefits of a particular device or some technology such as networking. For me this forum and a Panbo are where I can learn... aside from advertising or going to a West Marine. 

As a few old salts here I started with paper charts, DR... then LoranC and the SatNav and got one of the first GPS plotters... a Trimble NavTrac... stand alone radar and then a GPS chart plotter and then an MFD and and a small hand hold Garmin GPS/PDA... then loaded Navionics onto a smartphone and tablet. I networked devices with NEMA 183 and added some N2K with a MUX.

Over the years I have adapted to new technology and EVOLVED as it became available. Constant was the same boat. I even rebuilt my NavStation to mount instruments.

I dread doing a major upgrade to an N2K or wireless system with all new instruments connected by mysterious software. I like separate and redundant devices... I am not a geek and not a racers who needs tons of data coming at me.

For several years now I have all the technology that I could want to make my sailing safer, easier and therefore measurably more enjoyable with less stress.

The best system is the one that works for you!


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Chef - you should use whatever you want to use. Seriously. I support whatever works for you - just as you posted earlier should be the case. At the same time, I assume you don't still use Loran? Technology marches on and it's good to look at what's out there.
> 
> So, I'm not really doing this to convince you or anyone else in that same group of dudes who ran this around in the other thread. I honestly don't care what any of you guys want to use or do. Seriously.
> 
> ...


Good to know Daddy....we actually have the same goal then.

I agree with getting a well balanced educated view Especially new people but those also want to / need to buy or consider new equipment or ways to run their navigation. .....To that end I don't think it's good policy to have someone dominate the thread as I have pointed out and you didn't address. You keep dominating the thread with the same old same old .

The only thing I remember from some old similar thread you keep referring to was a safety factor which I brought up again in my last post. The safety of having multiple systems for redundancy. I will reiterate that most people I have read here and see in person as well as I sail with use both a Chartplotter as well as and I Pad.

It is you Who purports to have people give up the MFD for a whole system built on just an IPad. I have examined this seriously and determined for me that is not the best safety decision. I will continue to post that.

I am quite thanful others like Grant/ Jim and many others anyone else to express their personal experiences. I think I learned from them a few things. Especially the way they answered questions I posed. They are just as concerned about safety. For example the use of an SSB as well as their sat phones for data, communication , and emergency purposes.

I have another unrelated question. Maybe this is not the proper place to bring it up, but it has occurred frequently in this thread so I feel it's an appropriate question.

Why do you have so many edits of your post after you initially post it? 
Why do you go back after you post something , sometimes hours later and change your post?
What is that about? And why so often?

We all make grammatical and spelling mistakes. Once you hit send I would think ethically you should stay with that statement, we all have once in a blue moon edited a post, but Immediately after it's posted and it is a rare occurrence. You are the Champ on Sailnet at this. You have done it at least 5 or 6 times in the last 8 pages on this thread.

When those of us respond to a post it's what we see posted. Our response is based on what we see. If what we see can be changed hours later, So it never exists, well that just isn't right.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> I am quite thanful others like Grant/ Jim and many others anyone else to express their personal experiences. I think I learned from them a few things.


Good. Me too.


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## granche1 (Sep 6, 2007)

The volatility of this topic is rather comical. I will consider myself thoroughly chastised and try to remain respectful to the authority of my elders from here on out. Seriously though my comment about generational differences was not meant to disparage anyone's half century of sailing experience and you do have to dig pretty hard to take offense to it. What I find interesting about your story Falard is that if the winds got up to 40 or 50 knots I would certainly not be trying to white knuckle my way into some sketchy pass regardless of what electronics I was looking at. I would probably put right back out to sea and consider myself screwed until the conditions improved. That is just my inexperience talking though. 

I come at the world of sailing from a cruising and voyage making mindset and will admit to having no interest in racing. I actually dont know why people want all of this stuff integrated in the first place. It makes no difference if my anemometer, engine data, sailtrim, or anchor rode length is displayed on my navigation devices. Perhaps I dont know what I am missing but I just don't really see the point. I would like to have Chart, AIS, Satellite Imagery, occasionally Weather Data, and possibly Radar, all layer-able on the same device. I am not going to have my sailboat automatically following way-points and making course corrections. Perhaps that is because my boat is 35 years old and was not designed to be able to do that. I generally sail towards waypoints that are several days away. When I am near shore, the most useful tool that I have is an app on my Ipad called Ovital Map. It consists of pre-cached google earth images and shows your position accurately and in real time on the satellite image. This is invaluably helpful when navigating reef passes in the tropics. One of the things it lets me do is verify the accuracy of the charts I am navigating with. You can literally see the coral bomies from the sky (assuming that they are in the same place as they were when the image was taken...) and park your boat between them at night if necessary. 

Do the proprietary chartploters have a satalite image display feature? 

With regards to the claim that garmin or whatever chartploters add to redundancy, how do they do this? How is having a $3500 chartploter and an Ipad more redundant than having the 6-12 waterproofed Ipads that you could have for the same money? Is a dedicated integrated chartplotter more lightning proof than an Ipad? I dont know how weather proofed modern chartploters are but if gps worked under water i would consider taking my ipad scuba diving that is how tight the lifeproof cases are. 

I hope I have not offended anyone and will appreciate answers to the couple questions I posted.

Thanks

Grant

s/v Viandante


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

As mentioned we’ve had iPads ****e the bed on passage.
I was at nav station listening to Parker on the SSB ( others say another redundant piece of equipment). We normally tape that conversation on the iPhone then review it while watching the 12” RM screen. Offwatch runs his own boat and is knowledgeable so I appreciate his standing next to me as we discuss and decide the plan after that transmission. He left the quarterberth with his iPad in hand. We like to have currents or gribs on one screen and big picture on the other. Walked through galley and fell into the corner of nav station. Pad between his thigh and that corner. Toast.
Same trip other crew had a Iridium he was using to text with his wife. Just died. Won’t hold a charge. ? Reason. They did give him a new one when he got back to the states.
With wife. Night time and as cold as a witch’s mammary glands. Wet fog dripping off of everything. She’s standing watch as we cross golf of Maine. I’m in corner of cockpit under hard dodger pretending to doze but really keeping an eye out. Pretending to read Patrick Obrien but really have navionics on one screen and flipping back and forth. Then it won’t flip. Wipe it dry. Won’t flip. Turn it off. Doesn’t respond to my fingers. Turn it entirely off. Still no go. Bring it below and dry it again. Works. Go back to cockpit and it works for 10-15minutes then the same thing.
Can’t count the number of gloves that have gone bye bye due to screens. Not infrequently even with gloves rated to be used with screens in any kind of mist or perhaps charge in the air you need to take a glove off. When you need one hand for the boat and the other is on a screen the glove magically disappears. 
Commonly have different stuff up on different screens and make a lot of use of split screen. One AIS/radar the other chart. Easier to decode than overlays. Find need a reasonable size of the sub screen to pick up details.
Find with line of site or satellite devices location of antenna or receiver makes a difference. Even a mast, mounting pole for wind generators or other obstruction impacts input and quality of reception or transmission. Find devices at deck level especially when in cockpit may have troubles.
Best spot for us is on or up the mast or securely mounted on wind generator pole or extreme aft of stern rail. Other good spot is on foredeck. When it’s snotty have no interest in moving around to get to optimal spot. Interestingly have had occasion where targets don’t come up on the new iPad Pro but do on the hard wired RM AIS system even in coastal settings with cell tower access.
So really like my three iPads, hand held Garmin, two iPhone, one smartphone to take local chips but the go to remains the RM. 
know it’s old school but always want something not totally dependent on a touch screen if it’s going to used outside.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

granche1 said:


> The volatility of this topic is rather comical. I will consider myself thoroughly chastised and try to remain respectful to the authority of my elders from here on out. Seriously though my comment about generational differences was not meant to disparage anyone's half century of sailing experience and you do have to dig pretty hard to take offense to it. What I find interesting about your story Falard is that if the winds got up to 40 or 50 knots I would certainly not be trying to white knuckle my way into some sketchy pass regardless of what electronics I was looking at. I would probably put right back out to sea and consider myself screwed until the conditions improved. That is just my inexperience talking though.


I thought exactly the same thing granche. But more to the point, I don't see the relevance of any of that stuff to the efficacy of an iPad. That's more a story of issues surrounding preparation and decision-making to me.

I've been in up to 45 offshore with rain and big waves many times and even had to run a relatively sketchy (for me anyway) inlet at Sabine Pass with 6'-8' waves (dropped sail and did it under motor) and I have never had a problem with the iPad - or had my boat out of control for that matter. But to your more important point - why chance such a dangerous inlet in bad conditions - especially while panning and zooming your chartplotter - when you can't control your boat?



granche1 said:


> When I am near shore, the most useful tool that I have is an app on my Ipad called Ovital Map. It consists of pre-cached google earth images and shows your position accurately and in real time on the satellite image. This is invaluably helpful when navigating reef passes in the tropics. One of the things it lets me do is verify the accuracy of the charts I am navigating with. You can literally see the coral bomies from the sky (assuming that they are in the same place as they were when the image was taken...) and park your boat between them at night if necessary.


Now that's cool. I'd never heard of that app. Great idea. I'll check that out.



granche1 said:


> With regards to the claim that garmin or whatever chartploters add to redundancy, how do they do this? How is having a $3500 chartploter and an Ipad more redundant than having the 6-12 waterproofed Ipads that you could have for the same money? Is a dedicated integrated chartplotter more lightning proof than an Ipad?


This is one of those areas where I just don't think people really fully understand the technology. The bottom line is that a "dedicated" wired-in MFD at the helm, etc. is NOT more redundant than multiple i-devices. For example, if you've only set up your i-devices to be repeaters of the MFD as many here have pointed out - if that MFD goes down offshore due to water damage let's say, everything goes down. What other apps, etc. have you set up on the i-device to replace this capability. And if you haven't you're certainly not going to be in wifi range to do so.

Also, look at it from an electrical perspective (failure, lightning strike, etc.). It's incredible that the guy above has been hit *twice* - but as mentioned it's the mobile device backup that saves you...because it's not directly tied into the boat's electrical system. So, to me this "dedicated" MFD is actually a vulnerability in this scenario - not an asset.

If you are using i-devices and your boat's power goes down for whatever reason - you still have an MFD (several actually) with battery power AND you have easy solar charging capability that can keep you running indefinitely. All you've lost is instrumentation and radio. And if you have something like the IridiumGO! - you've not lost long-range comms either. It's multiple independent systems...that still work perfectly together.

So, the insistence that these newer technologies should be relegated to *backups only* makes no sense to me. In a typical failure mode on a boat when cruising, they are far more robust than all that stuff traditionally hard-wired to a single point of failure.

Again, I'm not advocating ripping stuff out of your boat. But let's say you have an older chartplotter that you want to replace with something way better. My recommendation would be to move that old chartplotter down below somewhere *as a back-up*, and move toward the i-device solution as your primary system. This way you don't lose anything - you just gain a much better *overall system* than simply buying another chartplotter.

PS - granche - where did you start your trip? Are you keeping a blog or videos?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm not going to read the thread through to see if my info is a repeat, so:

My old chartplotter chips are old and out of date and it would be over $600 to update them. That seemed crazy for a 17 year chart plotter considering I could replace it with a new unit that had US charts already on it for $1100. But my chart plotter still works just fine, so I looked for a backup. 

I acturally found the backup when looking for a way to have Active Captain on my iPad and phone and came across the Aqua Map app. For $14.99 I got a lifetime of US charts (can buy others) and for $97 I got a Bad Elf GPS plugin for my iPad. I use it when coming into inlets etc when there might be a change big enough to my charts to know about and it has worked great so far. And it of course also has the Active captain database in it.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> Hey kriss - as you know, I have the iPad2 (9.7" like the current iPad) as well as a newer iPad Mini (7.9" retina display). I like the larger display. It's kind of luxurious. And you can see it in the photos of our helm above for general sizing. But I could probably get by with the Mini display size if I didn't have that kind of space.
> 
> To me the more important aspect of the newer models is the brightness and higher resolution of the retina displays (versus our older iPad2). I just went with the iPad2 so that I could buy a couple of them used and not be out a lot of money if one went down due to water damage/etc. Now that I've used it so much with no problems, I'm not as worried about that issue now.


Thanks. I'm also leaning towards larger display as it should be easier to see and operate without reading glasses.

As to the 'controversies' on this thread... I like diversity of opinions and animated discussions, as I think they force people to back their rhetoric with more substance. As long as it stays civil and somewhat respectful, of course. So I want to thank you all for your input. :2 boat:


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Find it interesting that smack falls to address the experience noted in post #119 or that of other posters who are hybrid in their employing these aids. 

Appreciate Grants post. Thank you. Will download and add it to the menu of apps we use. Would note if we’re approaching a new landfall with reefs or coral heads try to do it with the sun behind us. Generally I’ll stand on the starboard cockpit seat with wheel in my hand and AP off. Wife’s at the bow. If there’s a third they stand aft cockpit seat so I have unobstructed vision sometimes with a pad in their hand. Put depth back on one of the small screens at the companionway. Find having brightly lite screens beyond current capabilities of pads and real big number for depth in multiple places helpful.

Will comment on a secondhand story. Shooting the breeze with friends on a valiant on their boat. We were both anchored to the right of channel into the lagoon in st. Martin closer to airport to get out of where the jet skis go. Forecast was for a bumpy night as wind was to back and build. They decided to leave their pad in its holder over night in case they needed to move or re anchor in the middle of the night . That harbor is pretty open to the swell at that spot if there’s any north to things. Next saw them about a month later. The mount failed and socket in device apparently got wet. When we met they couldn’t figure why it went south just that it did a few days later. They thought it was from hanging on the cord for awhile. So if you mount these devices make sure the mount is very robust.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> Find it interesting that smack falls to address the experience noted in post #119 or that of other posters who are hybrid in their employing these aids.


Out, seriously, you said this in post #9:



outbound said:


> Bye - the zero sum poster is on this thread. Once again posting a cut and paste. Once again adding nothing from personal experience or knowledge. Once again trying to create an adversarial environment for his amusement. Although this may be functional in a tort case many have no interest in living like that. Our lives are not your court room where one wins and one loses. Rather we strive to cooperate with others freely admitting our ignorance where appropriate and sharing our experiences and knowledge.
> I hope that the mods realize the number of people who leave this site due to the adversarial tenor created by SD.


So, why do you keep baiting me? If I reply to these comments of yours in disagreement - suddenly I'm "attacking" you (or whatever other poster in this group) - and/or merely "cutting and pasting" stuff (when that video you responded to in post #8 was my *actual first-hand experience*) - and/or playing a "zero-sum-game". If I *don't* reply, you accuse me of "failing to address" something.

I'm not sure what you're looking for here apart from continued confrontation. But, I'll respond as even-handedly as I can...

I didn't address the experiences you listed because I honestly don't think they have any bearing whatsoever on the worthiness of an iPad as an MFD solution as being discussed here. What does the clumsiness of some guy slamming his iPad into a cabinet have to do with this topic? To me it's akin to someone dropping their heavy coffee thermos - or nautical grooming hammer - or full-size galvanized Trident - or whatever - onto their B&G Zeus³ 12. How does that make the B&G Zeus³ 12 breaking in such a scenarios a substandard solution? It doesn't.

Same with other stuff like the IridiumGo! going dead for someone, etc. So what? I personally have several options for satellite coms that will keep me safe. So I can't text someone for a while? Okay. The dude got a free replacement. That's great. Just like SV Delos.

As for wet screens, I am doing a test on that with my upcoming video. So stay tuned. We'll see. As for losing gloves - I don't know what to tell you.

So again, that's why I didn't respond, out...just like I don't respond to a lot of what others complain about. It's either misunderstanding the technology, or their particular preferences, or about weird experiences, or hearsay that has no bearing on the subject at hand from a factual, true comparison standpoint. I mean, if what you're saying is that a "purpose-built" MFD COULDN'T POSSIBLY be broken by slamming it into a sharp, hard corner - I just don't agree. On the flip side, if you have your iPad mounted at the helm like we had ours (or even if you're just careful) - virtually none of what you're talking about is going to happen.

That's all I can say. I certainly hope you or others don't see this as an "attack".


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Everything is a compromise. Great to be portable but increase risk of damage. Intentionally AP controls, MFDs etc. are mounted in high impact case above level of tether attachment point. Injury from impact very unlikely. Accept this risk if you go mobile. Of course anything is possible. Murphy lives on my boat.
Screen lighting is an issue. Seems worse when suns behind you. Not a biggy but occasionally in high stress settings ( landfalls) it is a concern. Accept this reality for now. Think it will no longer be a concern in the future as readability on pads continues to increase.
Touch screens have gotten a whole lot better but still not as easy and reliable to input as a toggle and a few buttons. For me this is a major concern and one of disappointments in some newer MFDs which are pretty much touch screen dependent.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Doesn't matter if you "like" touchscreens or not. That battle has been fought and "won".


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

The issue of mounts, sockets, and cables seems common sense, but needs to be addressed: iPad is not an 'industrial device' so these things are somewhat fragile and must be treated as such. Again, on a backup device that is acceptable, but when used as a primary navigation tool, some redundancy would be prudent.


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## granche1 (Sep 6, 2007)

Smack. I got my boat in Mazatlan MX. Spent a couple years learning how to sail it in Central America. Then did a season in Ecuador. Did the puddle jump to NZ and was there for a couple years until I sailied up to Fiji for a spell and then the Marshal islands to avoid cyclone season. 

Since almost all of my sailing experience has been in tropical countries I have not had the glove loss problems that others have. I also dont really have any real problems with glare on the pad screen. If it is ever an issue I just tilt the mount to a position that alleviates the problem or remove the pad from the binnacle and put it in shady spot. I am always sailing with a Bimini over the cockpit to keep my skin from frying off in the tropical sun. When maneuvering in places where there may be coral, I usually send my crew, if any, up to the bow while I monitor Ovital Map. I do prefer to have the sun directly overhead in those situations. 

The water on the screen issue has come up and is sometimes irritating but has never stopped me from being able to use the device. I can always find a dry spot say under the dodger to position it if i am having an issue. The main weakness is the charging. My setup is pretty ghetto in that I simply use a 2 or so amp cellphone car charger thingy that goes into one of those cigarette lighter receptacles. I have one of those in the cockpit and it does occasionally get wet and die. Also the charge cords do not like getting the lightning plug wet. I usually have ten or so of these setups as backups and kill one or two per year. I actually only mount my ipad at the helm when I am hand steering which is pretty rare. Usually I am sitting under the dodger and the windvane is doing the steering. The Ipad is often just loose in the cockpit. I have yet to break one in 7 years and yet I take the thing everywhere with me on and off the boat. I think that the possible greater break-ability of tablets is aleviated by the simple fact that you can easily just pull out another one that is a clone of the broken one. I think you can do this several times until you reach the cost of an actual chart plotter. 

Regarding the buttons. I found that trying to use the buttons on my garrmin or furuno plotters was incredibly tedious and not intuitive. I do see though how if you only have to push a couple of buttons to accomplish basic navigation, that could be easier then using a wet touchscreen in an emergency. 

Thanks everybody

Grant

s/v Viandante


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

granche1 said:


> The volatility of this topic is rather comical. I will consider myself thoroughly chastised and try to remain respectful to the authority of my elders from here on out. Seriously though my comment about generational differences was not meant to disparage anyone's half century of sailing experience and you do have to dig pretty hard to take offense to it. What I find interesting about your story Falard is that if the winds got up to 40 or 50 knots I would certainly not be trying to white knuckle my way into some sketchy pass regardless of what electronics I was looking at. I would probably put right back out to sea and consider myself screwed until the conditions improved. That is just my inexperience talking though.
> 
> I come at the world of sailing from a cruising and voyage making mindset and will admit to having no interest in racing. I actually dont know why people want all of this stuff integrated in the first place. It makes no difference if my anemometer, engine data, sailtrim, or anchor rode length is displayed on my navigation devices. Perhaps I dont know what I am missing but I just don't really see the point. I would like to have Chart, AIS, Satellite Imagery, occasionally Weather Data, and possibly Radar, all layer-able on the same device. I am not going to have my sailboat automatically following way-points and making course corrections. Perhaps that is because my boat is 35 years old and was not designed to be able to do that. I generally sail towards waypoints that are several days away. When I am near shore, the most useful tool that I have is an app on my Ipad called Ovital Map. It consists of pre-cached google earth images and shows your position accurately and in real time on the satellite image. This is invaluably helpful when navigating reef passes in the tropics. One of the things it lets me do is verify the accuracy of the charts I am navigating with. You can literally see the coral bomies from the sky (assuming that they are in the same place as they were when the image was taken...) and park your boat between them at night if necessary.
> 
> ...


This looks like a great Ap. Thanks for sharing

My CP was no where close to $3500. Raymarine C97 cost me $1200. Price is not really the issue, but it's not $3500. There are plenty of CP on the market now in the $700 range.

The previous C120 was lost in a lightening strike after 9 years of use. It cost 1300 I recall. 
Not sure an iPad lasts that long.

The permanancy and robustness are important characteristics of the CP. I think Outs examples are there to represent the ease of " injuring " a Pad.

The toggles on the C97 are simple and become habit and rote. I too am not a huge fan of touch screen only. But remember we also use an I pad which I am a big fan of also.

Ever had an I device battery die? Or start losing its ability to recharge effectively? Isn't there a finite limit on charges? What is the number of hours you get on a charge if it's on full time monitoring? Do you have the PAD constantly hardwired in its mount?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Cool granche. I'm glad your gloves have worked with your iPad throughout your many bluewater* adventures in tropical climes so that you don't lose them. They must be marinized. Heh.

I'm actually looking forward to dumping water on my iPad while pinching and zooming and seeing what happens.

I've used those traditional buttons plenty. All you have to do is watch this demo (which is sponsored by freakin' Garmin BTW) of a side-by-side comparison of buttonville vs touchscreen...






I posted this in the other iPad thread that got a bit bent. But my good buddy NickyM makes a very clear point here. Pay special attention at 3:12 for now much the traditional button UI is a serious pain in the button to perform the exact same functions as he does with the touchscreen.

#ButtonsAreBackups

*Bluewater is important around here.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Point counterpoint again


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> The previous C120 was lost in a lightening strike after 9 years of use. It cost 1300 I recall. Not sure an iPad lasts that long.


My primary iPad 2 that you see in the photos was purchased in late 2011. Still going strong.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

FIPAD lifespan
Device	Prediction: Remaining Lifespan
iPad Pro (Gen 1) iPad Mini (Gen 4) iPad Air 2 (Gen 2)	4-5 Years
iPad Mini (Gen 3) iPad Air (Gen 1) iPad Mini (Gen 1)	3-4 Years
iPad (Gen 4)	3 Years
iPad (Gen 3)	2 Years
2 more rows
iPad Life Cycle - Information Technology | Emporia State ...
https://www.emporia.edu › help › ipad

Here's a copy and paste job...lol

Glad yours lasted since 2011, May not be the average though. I products in general have planned obsolescence. They also slow down functionality as the battery starts wearing out.

Is it being charged in its fixed holder


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Chef, what year was the 32G iPad2 discontinued?

As I've already shown you extensively from "first-hand-experience" - we had TWO iPad2s aboard our boat as chartplotters...*both* of which still function perfectly.

If you do the math, you'll see that they both obviously outperformed those generalized stats you list above.

Conservative numbers are wise in marketing and academics. Real numbers are what counts in sailing.

Does Emporia State offer a doctorate in GoogleFu?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Guys... chill out....

Mobile devices have earned a place on board for navigation. I think the issue for many is the user interface and robustness... plus the wisdom of of having a complex system subject to failure as opposed to stand alone devices and redundancy.

I don't think many sailors are literally spending a lot of time interfacing with nav instruments.. either looking at them or "summoning up" different data... Of course in demanding situations the demand on nav data is "more intense"... but also may make the interface more challenging.

Having a small mobile device which you can turn on "as needed" to compliment an existing fixed mount marine engineered device is great. Cost to purchase, back up and upgrade are other issues.

Note that few sailors simple completely change their nav equipment in one fell swoop... It expensive, time consuming and can be complex. Mobile devices do not contain transducers and rely on separate stand alone devices.. depth, speed thru water and of course wind, radar, radio and AIS. So in the end the mobile device is an alternative to a fixed mount marine designed MFD... Why not have / use both if you already have the fixed mount? Of course this would work only if your existing transducers can talk to a mobile device. My B&G transducers are ancient, precise and have worked perfectly for 33 years. So when and if I do an "upgrade" I am looking at a BIG step. And to take that plunge I need to be able to justify the cost vs benefits. And so far.... I don't see it for the WAY we use our boat these days.... local cruising for weekends and maybe some extended trips in Southern NW. I spend 4 years cruising and living about without a chart plotter... and did fine with a stand alone radar... the original B&G speed log, depth and wind... and remember them... PAPER charts I built a separate cabinet/locker to stow them!

In the end I like the KISS approach... when problems hit you're better off.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> ......With wife. Night time and as cold as a witch's mammary glands. Wet fog dripping off of everything. She's standing watch as we cross golf of Maine.......


I've been there, Out. Last we crossed at night, it was the end of June, temps dropped to 55 after dark and the cold humid foggy air cut through anything one was wearing. I was in full foulies, with gloves and a winter sweater beneath and still pretty cold. We're crossing again this year, at the end of July. The warm summer days and cool nights in Maine are gorgeous. I would be tempted to put up the full enclosure, for the passage, but the fog condensation would make it hard to see, especially at night, crossing the Boston or Portland shipping channel.

Your very valid point is that conditions like this are not tested in the anecdotes of a passage in the Gulf of Mexico or equitorial cruises in rain storms. It's an entirely different beast. Cold, wet fog will condensate inside any open port too. Rain may run past. A condensated screen is also very different from a bucket of water that runs off.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

The Gulf of Mexico can actually be fairly cool and fairly rough in the winter time. We had temps down into the 40's with sustained wind wind around 20. Dry suit, neoprene gloves, neoprene hoods, driving spray.

Agree, most tablets aren't going to function when exposed to those conditions. However, if kept below or if kept in a fully enclosed cockpit I would imagine it should be fine.

On my recent trip, my Sonim phone, which is marketed as waterproof died from sea water intrusion. Also lost a good quality waterproof head lamp, and a waterproof hand held vhf (both my Sonim and the VHF came back to life after drying out, the Sonim took about a week to dry out). Spoke to another guy with an open cockpit who had both his iPads in good waterproof cases die from seawater intrusion. 

I think survivability of electronics will depend a bit on how dry you are able to keep it. Splashes, rain water, should be fine on a large (30+ ft) boat, but saturation due to prolonged driving spray. I doubt it.

I do use electronic charts on my Sonim as a back up and usually keep it in a water proof case. Can't think of a good reason not to have electronic charts on a phone or tablet as back up, it's just so affordable. Cheaper than paper, cheaper than dedicated chartt plotters.

But if exposed to rough conditions or similar, I would keep the house hold electronics down below in the cabin and use a dedicated chart plotters, unless in an enclosed cockpit.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

tr​


SanderO said:


> Guys... chill out....
> 
> Mobile devices have earned a place on board for navigation. I think the issue for many is the user interface and robustness... plus the wisdom of of having a complex system subject to failure as opposed to stand alone devices and redundancy.
> 
> ...


Totally agree

It's what I have

What I would replace if it fails

Is what I have advocated all along ( both IPad and MFD)


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

There’s something a bit silly about this thread. Seems we’re talking like one size fits all. Coastal navigation is very much more difficult than open ocean. Old saying “the ocean isn’t a problem....it’s the hard edges” applies.
Use to do celestial for Marion Bermuda s. Being off 50m was of little safety concern. It’s when you’re getting close you need to take multiple sights and get that circle as small as possible. Hell with a decent timepiece and clear sky to determine local noon our antecedents got around but had troubles when near the hard edges.
When you’re in your home waters you have the local cellphone chip, occasionally can find unlocked WiFi, your SSB may only work early morning and late evening or not at all, you usually have multiple satellites over the horizon. You’re unlikely to catch really snotty weather. Here’s the killer for the msd vendors as MSDs are competing with pads in the screens home stadium. 
When you’re cruising until landfall usually don’t have the local phone chip, nor is there unlocked WiFi in range and depending where you are and who’s service you’re using even usable satellites may be questionable. So “so if you didn’t bring in with you..you don’t have it”. Embarrassingly we sometimes don’t know where we’re going until we get there. Got a iPad Pro with a bunch of memory so we could preload every chart we could think of but still screw up and need to search to find high speed internet to expand the charts. The RM is easier to keep up to date. Have had micro sd brought down to me rather than buy internet time on occasion. 
If you go north you’re in a very hard environment for electronics. Passages can be hard on everything. Mounts, seals, integrity of inner workings. 
So for now think what is smart for you depends on your boat, where you sail, and you. Once again there’s no “right”. As JeffH says “it depends “.
This thread as been treating people and boats as all the same. Like most I know I steer the worst. The Vane does the best, then the AP, and me dead last. If I had a NKE it would probably beat my hydrovane. Still having the wind instruments, fluxgate, and gps in the master msd hard wired together seems wise for now.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Sure, all that stuff lasts forever in the armchair..


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SanderO said:


> I think the issue for many is the user interface and robustness... plus *the wisdom of* of having a complex system subject to failure as opposed to *stand alone devices and redundancy*.


That's what has always been interesting to me about this debate. Though your wording is a bit confusing, I totally agree with this statement - especially the bold part. And I think anyone who uses i-device-based systems does too...because that's exactly what it provides.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> That's what has always been interesting to me about this debate. Though your wording is a bit confusing, I totally agree with this statement - especially the bold part. And I think anyone who uses i-device-based systems does too...because that's exactly what it provides.


Chart plotter and data on one screen is handy but not much used. I use a small stand alone GPS plotter Zues T7 in the cockpit...protected, a mobile device running Navionics when I want MORE redundancy. But the MAIN sailing info which I peruse constantly is the B&G dash mounted displays: wind speed & angle, boat speed and angle, depth and waypoint info which is repeated on the dash when programmed to the plotter at the nav station.

In reality unless there is some tricky navigation related to hazards or thin water... I can simply use the HEADING-COURSE line out to infinity on the hand held device or the T7 to see where the boat is heading and if how I am I doing to my destination.

These plotters leave a bread crumb track which is useful to determine where and when to tack. It's not terribly complicated. Poor visibility, unfamiliar waters, potential hazards is a who other ball game.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> This thread as been treating people and boats as all the same.


Out - I'm not sure what you mean by this. Can you show me specific examples?



outbound said:


> If you go north you're in a very hard environment for electronics. Passages can be hard on everything. Mounts, seals, integrity of inner workings.


And I'm also not clear on what you mean with this statement. What distinctions are you drawing here in relation to the topic?

Just curious.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Smack, So right now, I’m using my laptop for route planning via Coastal Explorer and a Raymarine interface program (along with email/IC-M802 interface, file storage etc…). The thought of turning it into a full-fledged repeater intrigues me. All I can find is software that displays what the MFD (in my case e80) is showing (via NEMA 0183 interface) but it doesn’t allow for control. The Raymarine website has software for a tablet that does this but has two problems: One, it requires the MFD (and its processor) to control the devices. And, two, I can’t find where it is sold on the internet (the Raymarine online store only has the display software). What have you found in your searches?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> Smack, So right now, I'm using my laptop for route planning via Coastal Explorer and a Raymarine interface program (along with email/IC-M802 interface, file storage etc&#8230. The thought of turning it into a full-fledged repeater intrigues me. All I can find is software that displays what the MFD (in my case e80) is showing (via NEMA 0183 interface) but it doesn't allow for control. The Raymarine website has software for a tablet that does this but has two problems: One, it requires the MFD (and its processor) to control the devices. And, two, I can't find where it is sold on the internet (the Raymarine online store only has the display software). What have you found in your searches?


George - I'm not sure what to tell you on your set-up. Isn't Coastal Explorer PC-based?

My focus thus far has been on mobile...specifically i-devices. One of the main reasons for this is that the devices and apps such as iNavX are already set up for easy integration with NMEA input via devices such as the iMux or the Quark-Elec . So it's really easy to set up. And the iPad is perfectly suited for use at the helm as a primary chartplotter - where a laptop obviously isn't.

You'll notice that the Quark-Elec mux device above has a USB-out (in addition to wifi). So this could get all that data out to your PC very easily - as well as feed it back as needed. But it's up to the applications on your PC as to how they integrate with this data and how easy it is to set up. And I just don't know that world, and am not real motivated to research it when there is already such a great solution as the one we're already using.

You do bring up a point we were discussing earlier, though, where the MFD is required as the hub for your other devices - which is a bad model in my opinion. Each i-device in our system is essentially an independent MFD that just networks into the NMEA data backbone. That's a much more robust system if you think about it.

The only missing link for me right now is interfacing the trip *planning* I do with iNavX - what you seem to be doing now with CE. As you may know, I'm a big fan of Waterway Explorer for planning, which can be done on the iPad as well (or any device really since it's HTML5-based). And as I mentioned in my WWG thread here before it was unceremoniously locked - WGE now has full Windy integration for weather as well...










So, it's pretty freakin' awesome. WGE also already has a partnership with iNavX with their in-chart overlays for marinas, anchorages, bridges, etc. - which I've found VERY useful underway. *BUT* they don't yet seem to have a way that I know of for laying down waypoints/routes in WGE, then transferring that data into iNavX. If they can get that going - I think they'll have a pretty killer app.

The same company that makes iNavX also makes MacENC (and the lower-end GPSNavX) for the Mac which fully integrates NMEA data - and even radar. And it's compatible with the iMux, Actisense, ShipModul, etc. I assume this is similar to CE for the PC. Does CE integrate with the above devices as well?

So, the bottom line is that there are all kinds of options on the PC/Mac side for various integrations. You just need to look through your application documentation to see what's doable.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Question to nautical iPad users: should I buy the iPad with a cellular option (sim card slot and antenna)?
How useful is it in waters OUTSIDE US? I know it would be useful option in US waters?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> ....
> You do bring up a point we were discussing earlier, though, where the MFD is required as the hub for your other devices - which is a bad model in my opinion. Each i-device in our system is essentially an independent MFD that just networks into the NMEA data backbone. That's a much more robust system if you think about it.
> 
> .....


I don't have an N2K network... but the MFD is not a hub any more than it is a node on the network... It DOES integrate data including transducers, GPS, AIS, and radar and makes most of this available on the network.. to repeaters/displays and slave plotters.

But if the MFD goes south on an N2K network no compass, radar, AIS or position info would be available on repeaters/displays.

Is this true or not?

My transducers do not use or pass to or thru the MFD... they are stand alone and data is displayed in the cockpit and nav station.

My AP does not have/use GPS which is my PREFERENCE. So there is no interface.

I see little to no benefit to having all displays available on a mobile device... ie replace the MFD... which does have cockpit repeaters ... for GPS derived data.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

krisscross said:


> Question to nautical iPad users: should I buy the iPad with a cellular option (sim card slot and antenna)?
> How useful is it in waters OUTSIDE US? I know it would be useful option in US waters?


well it's $100 to get the external Bad Elf GPS plug in

Far as I know all iPads have cellular option, meaning you can link it to your iPhone. But some iPads have their own GPS and don't have to be connected to a cellular signal. I would search for reviews of that to find out how effective it is and not rely on this limited group of users


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Don0190 said:


> well it's $100 to get the external Bad Elf GPS plug in
> 
> Far as I know all iPads have cellular option, meaning you can link it to your iPhone. But some iPads have their own GPS and don't have to be connected to a cellular signal. I would search for reviews of that to find out how effective it is and not rely on this limited group of users


The current Apple site indicates that there are iPads without and iPads with "assisted GPS", so you need the cellular iPad version. My cellular iPad works in "Airplane mode", which means you don't have to have a cellular connection for the GPS function to work. You don't have to sign up for an extra cell line to use this function--SIM card or not. I've used mine in the BVI and USVI when I could not get a cellular signal due to terrain blockage.

Of course, being a member of "this limited group of users", you might not want to rely on my opinion:wink


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

krisscross said:


> Question to nautical iPad users: should I buy the iPad with a cellular option (sim card slot and antenna)?
> How useful is it in waters OUTSIDE US? I know it would be useful option in US waters?


You have to the buy the one with the cellular option if you want the integrated GPS. I don't see any reason NOT to go this route. Even if you have an external GPS source of some kind (like we did with the GX2200 VHF/AIS), having GPS in the iPad itselve is great redundancy.

GPS is obviously available worldwide. So the other function you're talking about beyond that is, I assume, data. You can get this via wifi - free from most places in the world. Otherwise you'll have to buy simcards in the various places you visit - and pay for all that.

We never installed simcards in our cellular-capable iPads. Wifi did everything we needed in terms of planning, weather, chart downloads/updates, use at the helm offshore, etc. For everything else we used our phones.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

fallard said:


> The current Apple site indicates that there are iPads without and iPads with "assisted GPS", so you need the cellular iPad version. My cellular iPad works in "Airplane mode", which means you don't have to have a cellular connection for the GPS function to work. You don't have to sign up for an extra cell line to use this function--SIM card or not. I've used mine in the BVI and USVI when I could not get a cellular signal due to terrain blockage.
> 
> Of course, being a member of "this limited group of users", you might not want to rely on my opinion:wink


Most all the above is exactly right.

On thing I do think is important though, as we discussed in the other thread - DO NOT switch to Airplane Mode if you are integrating your iPad into your broader boat systems via something like the iMux. You'll have GPS, yes, but you'll lose instrumentation, AIS, etc.

The Airplane Mode issue came up when someone offered it up as a way to save battery power from the iPhone radio continually searching for cell reception. He didn't quite understand that this is all very different with an iPad...which was/is the topic of discussion.

I explain it in detail here with links to documentation if you're interested.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SanderO said:


> I don't have an N2K network... but the MFD is not a hub any more than it is a node on the network... It DOES integrate data including transducers, GPS, AIS, and radar and makes most of this available on the network.. to repeaters/displays and slave plotters.
> 
> But if the MFD goes south on an N2K network no compass, radar, AIS or position info would be available on repeaters/displays.
> 
> Is this true or not?


You need to look at the specs of the MFD you're interested in and its app. But if we take a quick look at Raymarine's RayControl app you see the following info/requirements for its use (I've bolded pertinent parts relevant to this discussion)...












> Requirements and getting started
> RayControl App | Raymarine
> 
> Recommended Requirements
> ...


So at least in this case the MFD is the hub - not your network. And this makes sense if you think about it. In our case, the iMux is the hub - which just gives us the ability to have multiple MFDs on top of that network/hub via our tablets - instead of one MFD and the tablets just "screensharing" the MFD data. Again, in the latter case if the MFD goes down, you're screwed. In the former, you're not. This absolutely is a safety feature.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I went to the apple store today and all the current iPads have GPS independent of the cellular signal. The cellular option (antenna and sim card) allows to connect to the internet through the cellular tower signal - of course you have to buy the service from the local cell service provider.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

krisscross said:


> I went to the apple store today and all the current iPads have GPS independent of the cellular signal. The cellular option (antenna and sim card) allows to connect to the internet through the cellular tower signal - of course you have to buy the service from the local cell service provider.


Kriss - be careful about that. See the specs on this page for the iPad...

https://www.apple.com/ipad-9.7/specs/

GPS is not listed on the WiFi model. And if you look at the iPad Pro page...

https://www.apple.com/ipad-pro/specs/

Same thing. GPS is only listed on the Wi-Fi + Cellular models.

Maybe they know something Apple doesn't. But I don't see why the Apple website would be listing these specs incorrectly.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Just to be on the safe side I will get the cellular option. Thank you, Smacky.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

It puzzles me why Apple charges a premium price for their wifi only IPads and doesn't include a GPS chip. It's hard today to find an Android tablet without one (and at a fraction of Apples price).


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JimsCAL said:


> It puzzles me why Apple charges a premium price for their wifi only IPads and doesn't include a GPS chip. It's hard today to find an Android tablet without one (and at a fraction of Apples price).


It's Apple! I certainly don't mind mind paying for it as I have a great appreciation for the overall design and capability of their products/solutions. They are very, very good at what they do. And the durability/longevity of the various Apple devices I've owned over the years has been amazing to me...which also factors into price.

What chartplotter apps are available on Android that would compete with iNavX?


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## isuee94 (Mar 9, 2018)

smackdaddy said:


> What chartplotter apps are available on Android that would compete with iNavX?


I believe iNavX is available for Android.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

isuee94 said:


> I believe iNavX is available for Android.


It is. Although it is about the worst-reviewed nav app in the Store. I don't use it (or any other app for device-based nav systems), so I have no way to evaluate it. For my purposes, my Lowrance Elite 8 chartplotter works great for me. But as a result of this thread, I went and poked around a bit in the Android Store to see what was available. iNavX has a rating of 2.6 stars. That's not good. I downloaded something called "Marine Ways" which looks interesting. I'll try to play around with it this spring.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

mstern said:


> It is. Although it is about the worst-reviewed nav app in the Store. I don't use it (or any other app for device-based nav systems), so I have no way to evaluate it. For my purposes, my Lowrance Elite 8 chartplotter works great for me. But as a result of this thread, I went and poked around a bit in the Android Store to see what was available. iNavX has a rating of 2.6 stars. That's not good. I downloaded something called "Marine Ways" which looks interesting. I'll try to play around with it this spring.


Ive been using plan2nav for Android as a back up to my Garmin Handheld for several years, i find it to be pretty decent. I would say for a week ender or light duty type usage it would probably be okay as a primary system when used with ome kind of suitable water proof protection.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

mstern said:


> It is. Although it is about the worst-reviewed nav app in the Store. I don't use it (or any other app for device-based nav systems), so I have no way to evaluate it. For my purposes, my Lowrance Elite 8 chartplotter works great for me. But as a result of this thread, I went and poked around a bit in the Android Store to see what was available. iNavX has a rating of 2.6 stars. That's not good. I downloaded something called "Marine Ways" which looks interesting. I'll try to play around with it this spring.


The current GooglePlay version doesn't appear to be the full version. It looks to be pretty new, and it's free on GP as opposed to the paid version in the AppStore. Also, the reviews on GP look pretty sketchy - or reflect the fact that this isn't the full version...eg...



> Its very inferior, iSailor is 100times better. No AIS, No Rng x Brg markers, No ETAs. Not worth the price for the charts.


Remember - it's rated 4 stars on the AppStore and has lots of accolades from the sailing press.

What makes iNavX so powerful when on the iPad is the ability to network with onboard instruments and AP. Maybe that will happen with the Android version - or maybe it's there and these users don't know how to integrate it.

But I can guarantee that iNavX on the iPad completely deserves its 4-star rating.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> The current GooglePlay version doesn't appear to be the full version. It looks to be pretty new, and it's free on GP as opposed to the paid version in the AppStore. Also, the reviews on GP look pretty sketchy - or reflect the fact that this isn't the full version...eg...
> 
> Remember - it's rated 4 stars on the AppStore and has lots of accolades from the sailing press.
> 
> ...


I'm not big on loading up with apps, as I really don't like it when they insist that they need to know my location and have access to all my data in order to provide me with whatever benefit the app supposedly provides. So I'm clearly not the guy to rely on when looking at app options. That being said, I'm not surprised that there is a difference between the free version of an app and one you pay for. I only saw the free version of iNavX in the GooglePlay store, but given my lack of experience in dealing with apps, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a more advanced version available for sale that I just didn't see. If there isn't, is that unusual, where the Android version of an app is so different than the Apple version?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

stern - I honestly don't know anything about the Android version. I was just surprised when it was mentioned that it was rated so low as opposed to the iOS version so I went over to have a look. It's hard to tell where the exact differences are, apart from the price, but the review comments made it seem buggy, which wouldn't surprise me as it's so new on that platform, and the photos of the UI looked to be missing a few key features. Those issues would certainly explain the disparity in reviews between the two platforms.


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## bristol299bob (Apr 13, 2011)

FWIW I'm using CPN on my Android phone and my Chromebook (which runs Android apps). I'm using it strictly as a curiosity, I use a garmin chartplotter as my primary and and an ancient iPad running BlueChart as a backup to that. 

I know there are plenty of folks who are big fans of CPN on Windows and I was curious about the possibility of running it on inexpensive Android based devices. CPN has some "warts" in the UI and despite its beloved following I don't think you will hear anyone describe it as "elegant" . Which is ok, it's quite full featured, free, and is capable of using free raster and vector charts. 

I have had it crash a few times on my phone, never on my Chromebook. But when it does there is no drama ... it restarts immediately and picks up exactly where it left off. Using it on a phone is pretty awkward though, the screen is just too small. 

I'd say that CPN is a decent alternative running on a 10", or even a 7", Android tablet.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Ok... I bought my iPad with cellular option and got the basic stuff set up on it. So now to the real business... which app should I install on it for backup navigation? We are going to be sailing from New Orleans area south-east around Cuba to Panama, through the canal, then west to Hawaii, and further to Philippines, Indonesia, Sunda strait and on to India. We have a chart plotter and paper maps. This iPad navigation tool is for backup only and for me to practice (I'm just a crew on this boat). Your help is deeply appreciated.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Based on what was said so far on this thread, I'm leaning towards iNavX but some people say it is way too complicated. Navionics would be another choice.


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## isuee94 (Mar 9, 2018)

I would recommend downloading the free Navionics Boating app and play around with that to get a feel for it. You can use the government (NOAA) charts to demo it and see if you like the features. I believe you also get a 2-week trial of some of the advanced features.

You can also investigate the cost for the charts you would need for your voyage. For example, you can get the Caribbean and South America for $14.99.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I use navionics on the iPads and have been pleased. Nominal expense. Still use RM as the main system as everyone getting on the boat is fully up to speed on their watch duties, ability to read key information ( depth, awa, aws etc.) and interface to AP in a few moments. I like having key information on its own screen visible to everyone in big numbers in certain settings. An example is depth. Will dedicate a small screen giving us 4” numbers upon a landfall. It’s at the companion way. Everyone can see it. Depth is repeated as an overlay in the lower left corner on the helm screen. Some like depth shown as distance under the keel. I let them do that on their pads but I like it to match the charts so that’s what’s on the RM. Same with North up or following true wind speed or apparent, or putting AIS on its own screen. 
Also people like to look at things differently. Split screens, north up, overlays, stuff on big screens or on the e90s. Find it’s much easier for me as captain getting organized and oriented when the RM hard wired system is the go to. Agree you can’t have too many screens as long as they don’t produce screen hypnosis. Chart plotters and pads are good but have had too many experiences with people staring at a screen and having no situational awareness. 
I’m sure one here will insist this is wrong. He fails to appreciate many posters here have access to both and have made their own informed decisions based on their use of both in real world situations. 
Unlike him I deeply care what you, gentlemanly reader, use. I want you to take full advantage of whatever technology you have aboard and be fully conversant with it. I have no desire for you to place me in an unsafe situation due to your need for assistance or rescue nor for you to imperil me by not being aware of my presence.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Will mention the warning when you fire any of this crap up. “Aid to navigation”. It should be treated as such.
When in the virgins we occasionally don’t even fire this stuff up. Just have depth up to know where to anchor. It’s line of sight sailing so no need for it doing the circuit for the hundredth time for guests. There’s no need for aws,aws, etc. look at your damn sails. Turn your head so the wind is equal in both ears, look at the sea. The biggies are the chart, radar, depth and to be able to send and receive AIS. 
When transiting NYC everything is up or upon a new land fall in skinny water ( Bahamas for example) or with fog, rock ledges and traffic (Maine). 
By maritime law if you have an aid and don’t use it and it’s use would have prevented a incident you’re on the hook. So use them appropriately but remember to use your eyes and ears as well.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

krisscross said:


> Based on what was said so far on this thread, I'm leaning towards iNavX but some people say it is way too complicated. Navionics would be another choice.


I would say it really all depends on whether you want to integrate your boat data into your chartplotter. I've used both apps and, overall, I like the UI and a few of the features of Navionics a bit better than iNavx - but Navionics only brings in GPS, position, and depth from what I recall. The reason for this is their "Community Mapping" initiative so they can have the boating community do the soundings for their charts. I don't know why they didn't go ahead and allow other data types - but that's the way it stands today from everything I've seen.

If you don't need data instrumentation, Navionics is great. If you want to have a full-blown MFD, iNavX is the way to go. And I honestly haven't found it to be complicated. Its UX/UI is a little antiquated compared to Navionics and some of these other more simplistic apps. It's not an app you just open and know everything about because it has so many great functions and features that you need. But if someone is calling it "complicated" they're just too used to playing CandyCrush in their recliner.

PS - One of things I think is very cool about Navionics (though I would never fully trust it) is the Dock-to-Dock Auto Routing. It makes perfect sense that this should be doable with all the known datapoints. BUT the fact that they have this feature but don't provide the data i/o for AP? Fail.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> I'm sure one here will insist this is wrong. He fails to appreciate many posters here have access to both and have made their own informed decisions based on their use of both in real world situations.
> Unlike him I deeply care what you, gentlemanly reader, use. I want you to take full advantage of whatever technology you have aboard and be fully conversant with it. I have no desire for you to place me in an unsafe situation due to your need for assistance or rescue nor for you to imperil me by not being aware of my presence.


Out, seriously, you really need to move on. This is getting a little ridiculous...and unhealthy.

As I've said countless times, I don't care what you or anyone else uses. It's just when someone makes incorrect statements (as opposed to preferential statements) about iPad chartplotter/MFD solutions - of which there have been A LOT - I'll correct them. Always. That's a good thing - *especially* for our gentlemanly readers...even the chicks.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

OK... back to the subject matter... important stuff...
Cost issues:
Navionics seem to have a bit confusing (to me!) price structure. Looks like I will need the US maps, Caribbean and Central America maps, Asia maps. In the apple app store these are all separate items at about $55 each. Is iNavX just $20 for the entire world?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

krisscross said:


> OK... back to the subject matter... important stuff...
> Cost issues:
> Navionics seem to have a bit confusing (to me!) price structure. Looks like I will need the US maps, Caribbean and Central America maps, Asia maps. In the apple app store these are all separate items at about $55 each. Is iNavX just $20 for the entire world?


No. iNavX comes with free NOAA charts. You'll have to purchase other charts as you will with other apps. Here's a link to what's available for iNavX.

From everything I've heard from others, it seems Navionics charts will be your best option for all those areas...though there are others as you'll see on the above page.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

do you ever have any trouble seeing the ipad screen in direct sunlight? I've had to retreat to the cabin to view my phone when it's sunny out, while I never have that problem with my chartplotter.


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## isuee94 (Mar 9, 2018)

krisscross said:


> OK... back to the subject matter... important stuff...
> Cost issues:
> Navionics seem to have a bit confusing (to me!) price structure. Looks like I will need the US maps, Caribbean and Central America maps, Asia maps. In the apple app store these are all separate items at about $55 each. Is iNavX just $20 for the entire world?


I agree - having separate apps looks confusing. However, you can download the free "Boating HD Marine and Lakes". Once you have this app installed, the charts for various locations are then available as an in-app purchase. They appear to offer these as separate apps as well perhaps as a marketing thing to attract people looking for those regions. Start with the free app, and you should be able to see the other maps that are available for in-app purchase.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

mstern said:


> do you ever have any trouble seeing the ipad screen in direct sunlight? I've had to retreat to the cabin to view my phone when it's sunny out, while I never have that problem with my chartplotter.


stern - if you're asking me, the answer is no. We never had trouble seeing ours at the helm. And this was a big point of contention in the other thread - to the point that I was accused of lying about this by several Posse dudes. So, let me try this again...

We had a bimini on our Hunter - which definitely helps as you'd imagine...and this is a *very accurate* representation of what our iPad2 looked like at the helm *to the eye* (not just to the camera)...



















You can watch our videos (including the GeekZone vid I posted earlier in this thread) and see many, many shots of this while underway and you'll see what I mean.

Also, keep in mind that I have used the iPad2 at the helm. The newer iPads are several times brighter than the iPad2 - so visibility will be even better than what you're seeing here.

Now, that said, you DO have to be at least *somewhat intelligent* when using the iPad...and when evaluating photos taken of the iPad (or any other touchscreen MFD) in sunlight. For example, someone took some photos of iPads to show how "difficult it is to read them in daylight". Here is their comparison indoors...










And I think this is a very good one as it shows the brightness difference. And here is their comparison in unprotected full sunlight...










And it's obvious, at least to me, that you probably don't want to continually point the iPad at the sun when you're trying to use it. But I think everyone understands that.

Then you have a photo showing glare...










In my opinion, this one is very misleading as a comparison as the iPad2 on the right has far more exposure to background brightness than the newer one on the left (which will also affect the exposure on the camera, which is not how your eye will see it).

But this doesn't really matter - because, again, you need to understand the limitations of trying to show this stuff via photos - and the agenda behind what is being shown. For example, look at this photo of a nice buttoned-up traditional chartplotter from a boat on which I did thousands of offshore miles (had a bimini as well)...










And then this photo of an even more traditional chartplotter at the helm on another boat I did several hundred offshore miles on (no bimini)..










You can see the brightness issues and make up your own mind. As for glare, check out this photo of a high-end touchscreen MFD...










Is that many tens of times better than the iPad (the price difference)? And here are a couple of photos of a sister unit in the Wicked Salty boat while underway - which also didn't have a bimini...



















So, my point is, you can find photos all day long showing good and bad of ANY solution. And it's going to end up being your preference of what you want. What I'm saying is that you DO need to be intelligent about how you are positioning and mounting your iPad if you're going to use it at the helm as a primary or secondary. But this is certainly not rocket science. Don't point it at the sun. If you have a bimini - and if you mount it like you would with any other helm chartplotter - you will not have any more visibility problems than you would with a more expensive traditional plotter/mfd....especially with a newer generation iPad (at least not enough, in my opinion, to be worth the price difference). And if you don't have a bimini, there are always other ways to skin that cat...



















So, in conclusion, what's more important than photos or bluster about expertise or miles or whatever - is information based on *first-hand experience using these things for extended offshore runs in all kinds of conditions*. That's what I can offer.

I hope it helps.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Thanks Smack, I was asking you. I kind of figured you would have some solid evidence. I think I'll borrow my wife's new ipad this summer and take it for a spin on the boat.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

outbound said:


> Also people like to look at things differently. Split screens, north up, overlays, stuff on big screens or on the e90s. Find it's much easier for me as captain getting organized and oriented when the RM hard wired system is the go to. Agree you can't have too many screens as long as they don't produce screen hypnosis. Chart plotters and pads are good but have had too many experiences with people staring at a screen and having no situational awareness.
> I'm sure one here will insist this is wrong. He fails to appreciate many posters here have access to both and have made their own informed decisions based on their use of both in real world situations.


The reduction in charting details from my RM MFD to my iPad Garmin Bluechart Mobile is significant. The iPad version has less detail and does not convey the full picture in many places, which is why--among other reasons--my RM is the "go to" chartplotter. One example outbound can probably relate to is the representation of Salt Pond Bay on St John. With 6' draft you can approach the NP buoys from either side of the reef in the center, but you wouldn't know that from the iPad version. Even my handheld Garmin Oregon chartplotter provides better detail (on a much smaller screen, though) that on the iPad. Of course, the Oregon chart chip cost twice as much as the Navionics download for the iPad, and it covers only the eastern Caribbean, whereas the Navionics Bluechart covers that plus North and Central America, so it isn't surprising that the iPad has less detail.

While a lot of he Virgin Islands is line of sight, it isn't all that way, particularly if you go beyond the well-worn bareboat routes. On the approach to Culebrita, for example, I would rely on a serious chartplotter over the Garmin Bluechart Movle on my iPad. Some (one?) might disagree, but I've "been there, done that"l. Now that Garmin has their new Active Captain ap, they may have more detailed charting available for an iPas, but the ap hasn't been able to download my g2 charts from a chip yet--maybe its a startup problem for Garmin Active Captain.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

A note for folks wanting to play with or evaluate the performance of their tablets. In order to test them to any standard that any one would care about you really need to be in fairly confined waters. A 25 year old monochrome handheld can do everything that needs to be done offshore.

To evaluate performance of a charting system. A familiar marked channel with cross currents might be a good testing ground, because you need to test performance against known land marks, otherwise you're just guessing.

Then you need to load the system up. Get it following a course, measuring XTE, then start scrolling through functions to see if you can crash it. Then do it in the dark in the pissing rain. If you have another tool present (such as a fixed plotter or a robust computer driven system) to compare it to, the test is even more relevant. 

When pushed hard, I have yet to encounter a household personal electronic device that has the same system stability as even a cheap/older dedicated garmin chart plotter. Especially in cold wet conditions. But my observations are hardly empirical evidence, they are just observations. In the absence of empirical evidence (I haven't seen any) we really each need to conduct our own tests to decide what works best for us, we can each use the opinions of others and published marketing details to help us in our evaluations, but there's nothing like watching two systems simultaneously during a bar crossing with our own two eyes.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Another technical question: how much hard drive space do these Navionics maps take on iPad? I could not find that info on their website.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

krisscross said:


> Another technical question: how much hard drive space do these Navionics maps take on iPad? I could not find that info on their website.


FWIW, I just edited my Bluechart downloads on my iPad (Garmin Bluechart Mobile ap) this morning. The whole download covers North and Central America, the Great Lakes and northern South America, plus all of the Caribbean islands and Bermuda.

You can download only those area of interest to conserve memory. If you downloaded the whole thing it would probably amount to one GB. I skipped the west coast, but got most of the rest and it was about 750 MB IIRC.

That said, Garmin has rewickered things and it appears the Bluechart Mobile ap is no longer available, in favor of the new Active Captain ap.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

fallard said:


> On the approach to Culebrita, for example, I would rely on a serious chartplotter over the Garmin Bluechart Movle on my iPad. Some (one?) might disagree, but I've "been there, done that"l.


Sigh. You guys don't give up do you? Can you really not make a single post without taking a shot?

As I've said countless times, I don't care what you use, fallard. That's completely your preference....just like it is anyone else's. FWIW I wouldn't rely on the Garmin Bluechart app or charts either. It's junk as far as I'm concerned - especially now with the AC switch.

That's why I went with iNavX. They are the complete opposite ends of the spectrum.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

krisscross said:


> Another technical question: how much hard drive space do these Navionics maps take on iPad? I could not find that info on their website.


kriss - with iNavX and the full compliment of the Navionics 1XG USA/Northern Bahamas charts, the Waterway Guide Southern and Bahamas editions, the Explorer Chartbooks - Bahamas, and Theyr Premium Weather - my entire install is 3.7G.

I've got the 64G iPad2 - so it's not even a dent.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Navionics is useless in the Caribbean. Explorer charts for the win.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> stern - if you're asking me, the answer is no. We never had trouble seeing ours at the helm. And this was a big point of contention in the other thread - to the point that I was accused of lying about this by several Posse dudes. So, let me try this again...
> 
> We had a bimini on our Hunter - which definitely helps as you'd imagine...and this is a *very accurate* representation of what our iPad2 looked like at the helm *to the eye* (not just to the camera)...
> 
> ...


Again the posse crap. Again the attack on another poste for expressing and opinion different than yours.

So here is some contradictory information from FIRST HAND POiNT OF VIEW with both an IPAD and MFD. 
in bright sunlight the I PAD is definately affected where the MFD is not as much. In bright sunlight you'd better have polarized sunglasses. That's what many sites say.......but the Ggoglemaster won't use those quotes and videos.....but why not....it doesn't support his agenda.

An agenda he shapes constantly with constant back edits of his posts. Think I'm kidding just count how many edits he has after the original post in this thread alone. Now why would someone do that. I don't see ANYONE even coming close to that. Even editing a post 5 hours after he originally posted it. What possibly could be the reason for that.?

My issue with someone doing that is they could back and substantially change what they posted so it could make a responder to the post look silly at the very least., or falsely responding at worst , or even more. How about playing by the rules. Post your post ...correct with another post....don't go back and rewrite history constantly .....that Borders on disengenuous.

We will continue to use both a MFD and an IPAD. Each has its place and merit.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have Explorer and agree those are better. Haven’t loaded them on the pads. Of interest.. find the paper charts and cruising guides very helpful. Know this is old school and makes me a troglodyte but wife guiding me showing me relevant info as I helm (or vis a versa) works just fine. 
On the RM commonly load several different sourced charts. Few realize the basis of all these charts is work done by the British navy in some cases over 100 years ago. Community edits do help some but in many places the chart is an aid but nothing to bet the boat on.
Culebra is an example. There’s a very nice reef off the the left when approaching that harbor. Anchoring there keeps you out of motor boat traffic, it is flat for good sleeping, pretty and you have nice neighbors. The chart is not great for getting behind that reef. Your eyes and the depth work just fine. Same for getting into George Town and so many other places. Sometimes it’s helpful to flip back and forth. Sometimes to look at satellite or aero pictures. Use what you have but it isn’t like New England were a night time landfall, even to a new to you, harbor just means running buoy to buoy. I’m a wimp and calculate my departure to ensure arrival at early to mid afternoon.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

So true about the actual age of when these charts were created. 25 years ago sailing to the Marquesas using the latest available paper charts created by the French Navy in the late 1800s we found that Nuka Hiva was exactly one mile West of where the charts showed. Somebody made a wee mistake. 

In the tropics trust your eyeballs, in Maine trust the buoys.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

That's what's interesting to me about the SonarChart Live initiative that Navionics had/has going on. And it's actually why I think Garmin bought *both* ActiveCaptain and Navionics (AC being the sonar sheep and Navionics being the pen). This was actually part of my award-winning SignalK video...where, yet again, I called it long before it happened.

Cornering the market on global modern charts is going to be pretty lucrative for the very reasons you mention.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

smackdaddy said:


> That's what's interesting to me about the SonarChart Live initiative that Navionics had/has going on. And it's actually why I think Garmin bought *both* ActiveCaptain and Navionics (AC being the sonar sheep and Navionics being the pen). This was actually part of my award-winning SignalK video...where, yet again, I called it long before it happened.
> 
> Cornering the market on global modern charts is going to be pretty lucrative for the very reasons you mention.


Until you go where others don't, like we prefer to do, then your up ****s Creek which is uncharted the last time I looked.

Play with your video games all you want. They are fun when in well charted waters but all one has to do is look at the rash of reports of people plowing into reefs and rocks while staring at their tablets and high end chartplotters to know there is more to this game than buying a subscription to Navionics.

We need more people with very little experience making YouTube videos on how to navigate like we need a hole in the head.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Bleemus said:


> Until you go where others don't, like we prefer to do, then your up ****s Creek which is uncharted the last time I looked.
> 
> Play with your video games all you want. They are fun when in well charted waters but all one has to do is look at the rash of reports of people plowing into reefs and rocks while staring at their tablets and high end chartplotters to know there is more to this game than buying a subscription to Navionics.
> 
> We need more people with very little experience making YouTube videos on how to navigate like we need a hole in the head.


Heh-heh.

Actually, you should look into the history of SonarChart (now Garmin's new "QuickDraw Community" on its ActiveCaptain page). It's been going on for a while - in many places around the globe. And as more boats wire their depth-sounders into their wifi enabled chartplotters (e.g. - via AC) - it's only going to proliferate. These boats are providing soundings with every mile they sail - even if it's where others don't. To wit...

From Navionics...


> Map the uncharted!
> SonarChart Live also makes it possible to create new maps of uncharted areas. If your favorite water body is missing from the maps, get on the water and benefit immediately from the results!
> 
> Want better charts? Go boating!
> Depth data gathered during SonarChart Live, can also be shared with Navionics to enhance SonarChart for all boaters.Navionics accepts sonar logs recorded with the vast majority of sonar/plotter brands and mobile devices.


From Garmin...










As this happens, the 100+ year old charts will become exactly what they are - obsolete. And the new charts will no longer show Nuka Hiva a mile from where it is today.

This is no video game.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

SonarCharts look really cool if you are clueless about the lack of calibration of crowd-sourced depth finders. In our area (CT) marine surveys are indexed to NAD83, which assures accurate depth referencing when using hydro survey-grade measurements (depth and position). The NAD83 depths have a specified offset from MLW, and would not be used by boaters without converting them.

The SonarCharts in my area have had depth errors that could lead to an inadvertent grounding. When some folks calibrate their depth finders to depth below the keel, others to water depth, most—I would guess—don’t calibrate them at all—let alone to an NAD83 reference, and virtually none are tagged to the tides, perhaps it is easy to understand why crowd-based soundings can be unreliable. Of course it mostly matters in very shallow waters where my Clearwater 35 has spent the past 22 years, so maybe I am more sensitive to these errors than most.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

It's funny you use NAD83 as a reference of accuracy in this discussion. You do know what that is, right? It's an *algorithm* from 1986 that simply uses a more dense set of geocentric positions from terrestrial and Doppler satellite data (to improve positional accuracy) than the previous NAD27 (from 1927). Think about that. A 32 year old algorithm that used approximately 250,000 stations compared to only 26,000 used in the NAD27 datum to derive its outcomes (i.e. - a much larger data set). Even so, remember, it still has the following caveat...



> Although being a geocentric datum, it is still believed to be offset by about 2 meters.


As a matter of fact, there's this...



> Surveyors now rely almost exclusively on the Global Positioning System (GPS) to identify locations on the Earth and incorporate them into existing geodetic datums.
> 
> The National Geodetic Survey has already indicated that it will be replacing NAVD88 and NAD83 in 2022 - because it is non-geocentric by about 2.2 meters.


So how accurate is that again?

Now, think about how many boats are out there (providing their boat information and data via these community apps) - and how modern algorithms can be used to normalize the relative difference between them in their depth soundings, based on the same *GPS data* (not NAD83) those surveyors are using.

I think you're underestimating data - and math.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I’ve often said on this site I’m a newbie. I have no where the experience of a Bleemus or so many others here. I’ve often acknowledged being wrong and have thanked those who have taken the time to correct me. I’ve learned from this site and have been fortunate to be able to put that new insight into practice.
Smack you wonder why you get so much blow back. You come on a thread and state a premise. When people are kind enough to give you additional information or experience you remain intransigent either failing to acknowledge that posts significance or how that post is counter to your experience but borne of experience outside your limited experience.
Net result is those with even limited experience such as myself know your view of the world is myopic in the extreme. They feel the humane obligation to make the general reader aware your view is inflexible, inflammatory and counter to good seamanship. I’ve been amazed how helpful other cruisers have been in my travels. How much I’ve learned from them and my having occasional crew. Like all good sailors ( and people) I know the most important things are:
To know what you don’t know 
To remain flexible and change your thinking with new knowledge or experience gained.
To not be committed to a zero sum mentality where you are in a constant fight to be “right”. Personally I don’t care if I’m right I do care I make good decisions and further develop my skill set.

In the years you have been here I don’t recall you ever acknowledging being wrong, nor publically admitting that another’s input has changed your view of things. Rather you present a fixed, inflexible dogmatic premise and hold to it come hell or high water. We see this approach all to frequently in general society. Be it politics, religion or world view. It shows a distinct lack of respect for the other and is universally destructive in any form. It’s the reason you were banned previously from this site and the reason few will wept if you are banned again. The tenor of any thread you enter rapidly becomes argumentative and unpleasant.

Your last post demonstrates this. It’s reasonable to assume Bleemus knows we are all the tits on the bull. Most of the Caribbean is a desert. That’s why you see cactus all over the place. Although in the past it was of strategic and military interest now that’s not so much. Neither is much of it of any commercial value. So the areas of commercial interest are buoyed but the rest no so much. Satellite pictures help but given storms, erosion, new deposits and channeling unless that picture is hours old often misleading as sand moves.
He is kind enough to point out from extensive experience don’t depend on any chart or picture use your eyes. This is excellent advice. Rather than thank him for sharing you give him a ration of ****e.
Shame on you. Get thee behind me.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

krisscross said:


> Ok... I bought my iPad with cellular option and got the basic stuff set up on it. So now to the real business... which app should I install on it for backup navigation? We are going to be sailing from New Orleans area south-east around Cuba to Panama, through the canal, then west to Hawaii, and further to Philippines, Indonesia, Sunda strait and on to India. We have a chart plotter and paper maps. This iPad navigation tool is for backup only and for me to practice (I'm just a crew on this boat). Your help is deeply appreciated.


I did the Aqua Maps for $14.99 and have downloaded the whole East Coast. It also has Active capitan and a tides and currents. It is basically just charts and your location far as a navigation tool, which is all I wanted. You tead all the directions inless than 10 minutes.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Sounds good Don. Keeping to the KISS principal. Please post as your experience with it grows. I’m looking forward to more experience running different data sets in different settings. For now don’t think any of this is a done deal. Different levels of complexity, vendors, formats and presentation are adequate in different locales. Even with all these choices you still need to keep your eyes open and be situationally aware. It’s not a video game.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I found this comparison chart for navigation apps: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BKMJxPECvglkSV70Yj8242wj8g8oYQVm/view and the entire article: https://www.waterwayguide.com/latest-news/news/8865/14-ipad-navigation-apps-evaluated


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> It's funny you use NAD83 as a reference of accuracy in this discussion. You do know what that is, right?
> 
> Now, think about how many boats are out there (providing their boat information and data via these community apps) - and how modern algorithms can be used to normalize the relative difference between them in their depth soundings, based on the same *GPS data* (not NAD83) those surveyors are using.
> 
> I think you're underestimating data - and math.


Ordinarily I would not respond to a Smackdaddy post, but this one totally missed the point of my comments on NAD83.

First, It isn't funny that I referred to NAD83 as a "reference of accuracy" in this discussion. It is a matter of fact that NAD83 is the official VERTICAL reference in the state of Connecticut. If you want to get a dock permit or do other work in the water, you submit your depth contours referenced to NAD83. In our area the vertical offset of NAD83 from MLW is 1.7 ft, so you need to read the fine print in a drawing to understand the contours.

Second, I am not underestimating anything. The local marine surveyors work from land-based benchmarks, using survey grade GPS equipment capable of cm accuracy for geospatial location. NAD83 is used to index their soundings to a VERTICAL standard. I am not aware of any local marine surveyors using gps equipment based on NAD83 for horizontal position.

My basic point about crowd-based SonarCharts is that there is no credible VERTICAL calibration of all those depth sounders. When I first checked a SonarChart on a Waterway Guide ap, I discovered the water 200 ft from my dock was 4' deeper than the 2.5 ft I had assumed for the 47 years I've been boating from this location. Who knew?

If the crowd-based raw depth data is being corrected by an algorithm, that would be wonderful, but if you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

Oh, by the way, I am not underestimating anything here and--as a matter of fact--I have worked with hydrosurvey data indexed VERTICALLY to NAD83 for many years. That said, I am not advocating NAD83--just stating an inconvenient truth that vertical calibration is necessary for accurately charting depths. As a matter of fact, I find the state's use of contours indexed to NAD83--rather than MLW--awkward.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

outbound said:


> I've often said on this site I'm a newbie. I have no where the experience of a Bleemus or so many others here. I've often acknowledged being wrong and have thanked those who have taken the time to correct me. I've learned from this site and have been fortunate to be able to put that new insight into practice.
> Smack you wonder why you get so much blow back. You come on a thread and state a premise. When people are kind enough to give you additional information or experience you remain intransigent either failing to acknowledge that posts significance or how that post is counter to your experience but borne of experience outside your limited experience.
> Net result is those with even limited experience such as myself know your view of the world is myopic in the extreme. They feel the humane obligation to make the general reader aware your view is inflexible, inflammatory and counter to good seamanship. I've been amazed how helpful other cruisers have been in my travels. How much I've learned from them and my having occasional crew. Like all good sailors ( and people) I know the most important things are:
> To know what you don't know
> ...


Well thought out and my sentiments exactly.

I was not one who asked him to be banned before when he was however my attitude has changed. You are right there certainly was a changed tone for not only the many time posters here, but also for any newer joiners.

He porports to post to correct others misinformation and that HE CANNOT ALLOW that to go unchecked when in actuality it is the reason I wind up with so many posts in a thread. He portrays that he is right , however on issues where there really is no right or wrong, just opinions , he finds the need to try and refute / counterpoint others opinions ad nauseum. His continued bullying will only serve to create a stifling atmosphere for newer posters to fear posting for fear the "bully" will make an example of them or their opinion. This MO is counterproductive for an open exchange of ideas. Like Over said... we can all learn from each other when that occurs. Despite my many years sailing I have learned from so many on here new and long time posters when they feel free to present their opinions and boat setups. Anything which stifles that should not be tolerated.

This doesn't even begin to address the othe elephant in the room where many on here Post from extensive experience. Most of us are proficient in the internet and can research anything on it. Many times we are looking for real life experience , as there are so many internet postings which are merely shills or advertisements for products. Using that cut and paste mentality can give the false impression of the validity of a product.

A recent example of this is this Foruno wireless radar so important to the Smackdaddy set up. Did he in fact have it.....no. Was he going to get one free to try .... yes , before when he had a boat. Yet there are numerous suggestions from him that this Furuno is a good / option. After cut and pasting how great it was I wonder whether had he gotten it whether he could actually be objective owing Furuno as he got it free. I wish we had a few people who ACTUALLY had a few sailing sailors who could authenticate its benefits and drawbacks who had actually bought it. The issue is he supports it fact unseen and untested and some new poster may go out and waste their money on it .

Maybe that is some of the explanation why he edits his posts so many times after posting them. To make himself or position himself to be right . That could explain SOME of that mass editing.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I checked the data requirements for my C-Maps for Plan2nav on my Android. I have Great lakes, US North easr, US SouthEast and gulf of Mexico. It looks to be about 520 MB of hard drive space.

I use it mostly as a back up. I find I really dont need electronic charts much, between recreational sailboats being so slow, so maneuverable and bouyage systems in North America being so good, there usually isnt much need. But, in skinny water, cruddy visibility, currents, they are nice gadgets to have. I couldnt care less about advanced features for how I use them, which is real time pilotage in skinny water. I want position, where the pointy bits are, course and distance to way point, trip, speed and heading. Plan2nav gives me all those features. The android gives better resolution then my garmin, with the trade off being less system stability and way less robust.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> Smack you wonder why you get so much blow back. You come on a thread and state a premise. When people are kind enough to give you additional information or experience you remain intransigent either failing to acknowledge that posts significance or how that post is counter to your experience but borne of experience outside your limited experience.
> Net result is those with even limited experience such as myself know your view of the world is myopic in the extreme. They feel the humane obligation to make the general reader aware your view is inflexible, inflammatory and counter to good seamanship. I've been amazed how helpful other cruisers have been in my travels. How much I've learned from them and my having occasional crew. Like all good sailors ( and people) I know the most important things are:
> To know what you don't know
> To remain flexible and change your thinking with new knowledge or experience gained.
> ...


Out, there's no question I get "blowback"...but you'll notice that it's from *exactly* the same group of guys - *always*. Hence the moniker. Look back at the other iPad thread, look back at my WWG thread, and look at who the jumpers are. And that is *still* going on in *this* thread - with you continuing it. As is shown in the last couple of pages, you guys simply do not have the ability to post about the subject without personally attacking me for all kinds of reasons in virtually every single post.

I don't do that to you guys. I post about *the topic* and only occasionally respond to these personal shots like yours above (I've moved on from Chef).

You'll notice that I stick almost exclusively to this thread. Why? First is because I have zero interest running across any of you in any other thread. It's just not worth it. (I wish it were the same with you all). Second, is because I have actual first-hand experience to offer to interested readers *on this subject*. It's the very thing you're touting as paramount above. The very thing *you guys* say is so critical to the value of one's opinions - yet actually refuse to accept from me "for some reason". You just continually make it a fight saying I am the one "presenting a fixed, inflexible dogmatic premise and hold to it come hell or high water". It's all me.

No, out, as most rational people in this thread will tell you, I am presenting facts. See stern's post above.

In fact, out, I have had several people contact me via PM for information about this stuff. Why? *Because of you guys - not me. *They don't want to be jumped in this thread like I am being continually jumped. You'll notice that another newer poster with experience on this has been quiet after a couple of posts - jokingly saying this...



> The volatility of this topic is rather comical. I will consider myself thoroughly chastised and try to remain respectful to the authority of my elders from here on out.


Here's the deal...you guys don't really care about experience or miles or whatever *unless it's your own* and then you loudly tout those things to make *you* more right than everyone else. What you are accusing me of is precisely what you guys do. It has always been this way. If I *show you* facts about something specific like this - facts that counter something you're saying...it's an "attack". Yet you guys almost never post actual facts (photos, links to documentation, etc.) to back up what you say like I do. You just expect your word to be taken as gospel for some weird reason.

So, sorry, Out - I'm not Satan. You, and a few others, just seem to need me to be. And it's gotten very old.

As for Bleemus - you'll notice that we were in complete agreement about the Explorer charts. Then with his next post, I didn't say anything at all about his experience (I don't really know or care what it is), I didn't belittle him (as he did me - which you interestingly call "kind"), nothing. In fact, I merely explained to him how technology is changing and gave him the examples that will potentially improve the charting issues he mentioned (with lots of downsides as well). If that's being somehow "uppity" in your mind - then I'm sorry Out. I don't know what to tell you. I'm just not interested in playing your game.

So, I would ask that you and your group please stop following me around and harassing me. And I would hope the mods finally see it for what it really is.

Now, please - back to the topic that kriss started. If SN members or readers have any questions or comments *on this topic* and want to talk about here or via PM, I'm happy to discuss it with you as always. It's one I'm really into, one I have a good deal of experience with, and one for which I have something offer. If it's just going to be the same old guys doing the same old drill trying to trash yet another thread and get it locked - or more likely from these posts above trying to get me banned again - I'll back out.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> I checked the data requirements for my C-Maps for Plan2nav on my Android. I have Great lakes, US North easr, US SouthEast and gulf of Mexico. It looks to be about 520 MB of hard drive space.
> 
> I use it mostly as a back up. I find I really dont need electronic charts much, between recreational sailboats being so slow, so maneuverable and bouyage systems in North America being so good, there usually isnt much need. But, in skinny water, cruddy visibility, currents, they are nice gadgets to have. I couldnt care less about advanced features for how I use them, which is real time pilotage in skinny water. I want position, where the pointy bits are, course and distance to way point, trip, speed and heading. Plan2nav gives me all those features. The android gives better resolution then my garmin, with the trade off being less system stability and way less robust.


Our biggest test of our iPad/iNavX/Navionics combo was entering a completely unknown inlet at night after having some mechanical issues offshore. The conditions were very favorable or I wouldn't have done it - but it was pitch black and I was completely reliant on that chartplotter and the boys spotlighting the markers to make sure they were where they were showing on the chart. I was amazed at the accuracy.

I've also sailed/raced offshore at night off the coast of Texas where there are hundreds of completely unlit oil rigs like this one...










So I agree - it's the hard bits that are the scariest. And those can be in some surprising places.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

krisscross said:


> I found this comparison chart for navigation apps: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BKMJxPECvglkSV70Yj8242wj8g8oYQVm/view and the entire article: https://www.waterwayguide.com/latest-news/news/8865/14-ipad-navigation-apps-evaluated


Great info! There are a couple in there I didn't know about. Thanks kriss!


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Sure you could use charplotters to avoid oil rigs, but you dont need a chart plotter. They are lit up like christmas trees and well marked on charts, they use sound signals in fog and your rate of closure is rarely going to exceed 5 knots in restricted vis if youre being prudent. You could simply plot way points around them on an old monochrome hand held with no charting abilities, or you can mark them as a hazard and go around them. You are giving oil rigs at least a mile any way. We are not talking about precision navigation by any strecth of the imagination, theyre pretty easy to miss.

If you want to use a chart plotter to miss them, nothing wrong with that, there is certainly no need for one. The Gulf of Mexico is one of the easiest places I have ever navigated. There are no hard bits any where. On our trip down the coast of florida, we used our chart plotter twice. Once to find a channel in Florida Bay and coming into Fort Myers from the north in the dark because we found the lights confusing.

Any way, back to Plan2nav. For folks with android systems, my reason for going that way was price. It was really affordable. The app was free and a mart area (like the great lakes, and us north east) was something like $12.99 and i have found customer service to be good when ive needed help.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> Sure you could use charplotters to avoid oil rigs, but you dont need a chart plotter. They are lit up like christmas trees and well marked on charts, they use sound signals in fog and your rate of closure is rarely going to exceed 5 knots in restricted vis if youre being prudent. You could simply plot way points around them on an old monochrome hand held with no charting abilities, or you can mark them as a hazard and go around them. You are giving oil rigs at least a mile any way. We are not talking about precision navigation by any strecth of the imagination, theyre pretty easy to miss.


Actually Arc, as I said - many of these rigs off the Texas/Louisiana coast are completely dark and quiet (no sound signals) at night. Take a look at how many of these there are...










Again, the image I posted above of that rig is one of these. So, we definitely value chartplotters and radar and moonlight when we're moving through that spiderweb at night.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Steve I’m going to try to defuse this as it’s gone on too long. Freud spoke of neurotic stupidity where an intelligent person continues to repeat a behavior that produces a hostile response but is unable to see why and change. 
The most informative posts on this site have been one or two sentences or a brief written text of experiences or a link.
Examples abound. Don’s experience of using a simple inexpensive tool that more then adequately serves his need. The link to that wonderful spreadsheet comparing vendors. The brief favorable report of using a pad in Central America. Limitations have been similarly briefly stated without bias or accusation. 
Please note the brevity of the best most informative posts. The total absence of screen shots. The non judgmental tenor.
Other than in my posts to you I try to follow that script. Perhaps as an experiment keep your posts as brief as possible. Utilize no pictures nor screen shots. Virtually everyone here has some gaps in their knowledge of this subject but virtually everyone here has been using pads for years for this purpose. Occasionally acknowledge others knowledge, opinion and experience is different than your own but not to be demeaned. 
You aren’t unintelligent. Step back for a minute. Decide if you want the same old crowd nipping at your heels ad naseum. Like everyone on a boat I’m sure you may have a pearl to throw before us swine. Please do the experiment for a week or two. I think you would find a very different reception.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> Actually Arc, as I said - many of these rigs off the Texas/Louisiana coast are completely dark and quiet (no sound signals) at night. Take a look at how many of these there are...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats nice, i could post pics of areas where the waters surface is dotted with hundreds or thousands of stone islands created by subbmerged tops of sunken mountain ranges both above and below the water. Lots of us navigate in regions like that all the time. Pretty well the entire pacific Northwest from washington to Alaska, much of the great Lakes, Scandinavia. Its not that big of a deal.

Nobody had chart plotters in any of these places 25 years ago.

I use them occasionally because they are a convenience and make landfall easier, especially where thin water and submerged hazards are concerned. They arent a big deal for me, just a convenient tool in the tool box that I wil occasionally put to use.

As i mentioned, I like Plan2nav because it was cheap and it works, I also use a Garmin hand held plotter.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

From that WG article here are the most robust options with *BOTH* NMEA and AIS capabilities...



> iNavX
> i-Boating
> SEAiq


I'll look into these others, but who around here has used a fully integrated version of i-Boating and/or SEAiq (full NMEA and AIS)? What did you think?


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

krisscross said:


> I found this comparison chart for navigation apps: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BKMJxPECvglkSV70Yj8242wj8g8oYQVm/view and the entire article: https://www.waterwayguide.com/latest-news/news/8865/14-ipad-navigation-apps-evaluated


Looks useful, but only if you are part of a pretty small minority since this is for IOS only. This misses over 85% of all mobile devices https://9to5mac.com/2016/08/18/android-ios-smartphone-market-share

For instance, no OpenCPN.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I downloaded and played with both i-Boating and SEAiq. They don't compare with iNavX. Not even close. 

If you're serious about wanting a full-featured MFD plotter on your iPad - I've seen only one real solution thus far.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> I downloaded and played with both i-Boating and SEAiq. They don't compare with iNavX. Not even close.


We have been using SEAiq for years, and have only played with iNavX a bit. My experience is different than yours, as I find SEAiq the most full-featured app (for us) available.

Things that make it good for our usage:
1. Complete NMEA integration over wifi (iNavX also) with flexible use of the data. For instance true and apparent wind and COG/heading can be displayed as vectors from ownship, as well as in instrument gauges/clusters.
2. Uses any and all chart formats, including charts I make from PDF files, Google Earth, and the like. This is a very important feature for us - maybe the most important. AFAIK, it is the only program on iPad to allow this. SEAiq also used to use CM93 charts, but bowed to pressure from CMAP and took out that support. We stopped upgrading at the last supporting version, so are probably missing other features that have been added since.
3. Seemless integration with VentureFarther for satellite charts - just select an area, push a button and a satellite overlay appears on whatever charts you are using. We also use this feature a lot since we are often in poorly charted areas.
4. The AIS CPA crossing situation is represented like Vesper used to do and OCPN still does, with vectors from each ship ending where the CPA will be in the future.
5. Seamlessly connects to NOAA chart libraries and updates all US raster and ENC charts for free (I think iNavX charges as part of their subscription?).

If OCPN were on iPad, we would be using that just for its CM93 capability that SEAiq took away. Otherwise, they are about identical in terms of what we want.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Edit: I forgot the most important feature - once you purchase it, it is yours. I don't do subscription models.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

It looks like iNAVX only supports raster charts? That would be a deal breaker for me.

Other than what I have posted above, iNavX looks like a good program, and better than most (I detest the Garmin and Navionics apps, although the Garmin app does have the prettiest chart display, and all the other apps I have tried have been toys). However, our needs/desires do not seem to be met by it. On the other hand, I recognize that our needs are different than most people's.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I don't understand some of the replies/warnings here about relying on their dedicated chartplotter over their tablet that use the charts themselves as the criteria. 

Just to switch that argument around, if one relied on their Garmin or RM chartplotter in the San Blas Panama islands instead of Bauhaus charts on a tablet app, one will lose their boat on the reefs (about 5 boats each year are lost there for this very reason).

Boats are lost in the Bahamas each year because of relying on the wrong charts on their chartplotter instead of the Explorer charts on their Garmin app.

So the device that displays the charts is not the problem, and confusing the device for the charts is missing the point.

A correctly chosen tablet app will provide greater flexibility over charts and chart formats, including satellite and pdf or picture overlays, than any chartplotter made.

If one has the wrong app, or the wrong chartplotter, which doesn't allow the proper charts for one's navigational area, then the navigation problem does not lie with the hardware/software.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Hey Mark - thanks for your input. Yours is an opinion/viewpoint I definitely respect.

I guess I should qualify my comments a bit. My newer iPad is at the office so I downloaded the Free SEAiq app (which gives you a trial of the full USA version) on my iPhone8 and that might have been part of the issue in terms of display. (Note: I had to do this because SEAiq is only available for iOS 10 which the iPad2 doesn't support - where iNavX supports both).

So first let me address the info I found on this (which shaped my opinion) and then what I saw (which made me draw the above conclusion).

First, I know this app is used by professional mariners (e.g. - SEAia Pilot, etc.), so there's no question it has to have great capabilities. The IHO official standards charts (S-52, 57, 63...) is definitely a plus. No question. But it was mostly the other implementations that seemed weak to me as I'll explain below.

The charts I got with the free trial of SEAiq USA were the NOAA ENC charts. This was, if I recall, almost 300 charts at .5G. And for some reason it took FOREVER to download these even via WiFi. I don't know if their server is slow or what - but it was excruciating.

Okay - to responses in red...



colemj said:


> We have been using SEAiq for years, and have only played with iNavX a bit. My experience is different than yours, as I find SEAiq the most full-featured app (for us) available.
> 
> Things that make it good for our usage:
> 1. Complete NMEA integration over wifi (iNavX also) with flexible use of the data. For instance true and apparent wind and COG/heading can be displayed as vectors from ownship, as well as in instrument gauges/clusters.
> ...


I'll keep playing with SEAiq. I'll admit - I'm definitely not reviewing it from an informed, first-hand experience viewpoint as you are. And I know there's a lot of personal preference in these kinds of things which color opinions. So I defer to you on that app.

But, I do want to say thanks for the feedback on this stuff with the specific examples. It makes these comparisons much more educational and fun.

Cheers.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Hey Mark - thanks for your input. Yours is an opinion/viewpoint I definitely respect.


Thanks mate!

I appreciate that. :angel

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Thanks mate!
> 
> I appreciate that. :angel
> 
> Mark


Wait, who are you?


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

What's the point of those long posts? Anything longer than 6 seconds is beyond my Goldfish attention span.

BTW - I think the problem with chartplotters is that while the GPS position is definitely correct to within 12', the chart mostly surely isn't so your using your displayed position on it to thread between reefs that have a 50' opening may result a crashing surprise.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Don0190 said:


> What's the point of those long posts? Anything longer than 6 seconds is beyond my Goldfish attention span.


Then don't read them Don. It's not that hard - and it certainly won't hurt my feelings.

As for the "point" - it's information.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Then don't read them Don. It's not that hard - and it certainly won't hurt my feelings.
> 
> As for the "point" - it's information.


I didn't read it, which means it failed to pass any information.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Don0190 said:


> I didn't read it, which means it failed to pass any information.


Ah, I see. Okay.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

It’s not information, it’s obsession.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

outbound said:


> Steve I'm going to try to defuse this as it's gone on too long. Freud spoke of neurotic stupidity where an intelligent person continues to repeat a behavior that produces a hostile response but is unable to see why and change.
> The most informative posts on this site have been one or two sentences or a brief written text of experiences or a link.
> Examples abound. Don's experience of using a simple inexpensive tool that more then adequately serves his need. The link to that wonderful spreadsheet comparing vendors. The brief favorable report of using a pad in Central America. Limitations have been similarly briefly stated without bias or accusation.
> Please note the brevity of the best most informative posts. The total absence of screen shots. The non judgmental tenor.
> ...





smackdaddy said:


> Hey Mark - thanks for your input. Yours is an opinion/viewpoint I definitely respect.
> 
> I guess I should qualify my comments a bit. My newer iPad is at the office so I downloaded the Free SEAiq app (which gives you a trial of the full USA version) on my iPhone8 and that might have been part of the issue in terms of display. (Note: I had to do this because SEAiq is only available for iOS 10 which the iPad2 doesn't support - where iNavX supports both).
> 
> ...


For those of you who could follow all this .........Goodonya as my Aussie mate says,

I prefer to sail. Use electronics as an aid to navigation
I am sailing not buried in my IMux, I Pad,

I wonder I never actuality how many Sailnettrs on here used electronics as I do and enjoy and want simplicity like a MFD provides. I don't want to need a degree from Cut and Paste University or to listen to how I need to have Bad Elf pucks and dèbate computer software nuances. Keep posting long diatribes ....you actually make the case for most of us who want to sail and we sail to get away from this jibberish.

This is exactly what those died in the wool anti electronics old salts talk about when they say and talk about inexperienced sailors taking more risks because they think all situations or sailing is solved by complicated electronics.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Hey Mark - thanks for your input. Yours is an opinion/viewpoint I definitely respect.
> 
> I guess I should qualify my comments a bit. My newer iPad is at the office so I downloaded the Free SEAiq app (which gives you a trial of the full USA version) on my iPhone8 and that might have been part of the issue in terms of display. (Note: I had to do this because SEAiq is only available for iOS 10 which the iPad2 doesn't support - where iNavX supports both).
> 
> ...


This certainly makes the case for Sailnet having a character limit of 120 like twitter. May need a cut a paste limit to boot??


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

chef2sail said:


> For those of you who could follow all this .........Goodonya as my Aussie mate says,
> 
> I prefer to sail. Use electronics as an aid to navigation
> I am sailing not buried in my IMux, I Pad,
> ...


Yep, I was scratching my head trying to remember the last time I fired up my laptop with Open CPN on it..Must a been last year in Sumatra somewhere. Had a good laugh with my mate Jerry about looking at the chart in the morning the other day and then not looking at it again for two days until I was on a mooring in Ao Chalong..


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

aeventyr60 said:


> Yep, I was scratching my head trying to remember the last time I fired up my laptop with Open CPN on it..Must a been last year in Sumatra somewhere. Had a good laugh with my mate Jerry about looking at the chart in the morning the other day and then not looking at it again for two days until I was on a mooring in Ao Chalong..


Having begun sailing in the hay day of Loran C... I find the most basic GPS plotter an amazingly helpful device for confirming my position. And that's all I need to know. Back in the old days position accuracy was a big issue. But today these GPS positions are remarkably accurate... certainly for all but the most challenging situations.. like a narrow channel... and for that work you better have good eyesight and be watching.

Radar is very helpful in poor visibility. But few would attempt threading a series of needles in those conditions unless there was no choice. In open water if dense fog sets in it can be unnerving to say the least where the hazards are other vessels and the odd buoy.

So for all P R A C T I C A L purposes we now have WAY WAY too much information available on a screen... an MFD or a mobile device. If you are simple using it to see the local position... zoom and pan are really all you need.

AND for the zillionith time WAYPOINT to WAYPOINT navigation using a GPS driven AP is for power boats. A sailing boat can use a waypoint mark to figure out when to tack... 
and so forth. S super sophisticated sailing program with polars and real world current info could probable steer the boat / tack the boat and all you do is work the sails. WHOOPIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think the development of the micro processor HAS made sailing safer. I also think we are becoming over come with data of decreasing utility. That's fine for a crewed race boat with a designated navigator trying to optimize and get every tenth of a knot out of the boat.

Most sailors are not usually sailing in unfamiliar waters where plotter is especially helpful.

Mobile devices are fine except for the interface and the robustness... and getting radar on them is limited as far as I understand the technology today. I love having a chart plotter in my hand or pocket... I can use that to find the mother ship from the dink in pea soup fog... or the town dock when anchored off.

My problem is not data but decent sailing condition which technology is doing nothing about!


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

We are using our Vespar to provide the NMEA wifi feed, but SEAiq will use any TCP or UDP address. I have connected it to my laptop acting as a NMEA UDP output from OCPN with no issue. It will also act as an a NMEA server for feeding other devices. Don't know why they only list two AIS products for this, unless it was only to demonstrate compatability with the most popular commercial gear.

The AIS CPA vectors are more than just extended COG lines from boats. Those also exist and are user-adjustable to whatever time you want. But more importantly is the way the CPA is displayed. I can't post a picture from here, but when there is an AIS target, COG vectors are produced from both the target and ownship. Those vectors are variable in length and end for both ships at the calculated CPA. So the ends of the vectors are where the two ships will be at their CPA. There is a small circle on the ends of each vector with a dotted line connecting those circles. This dotted line has the CPA distance overlayed on it. For example, if there is a crossing situation with a CPA of 0.1nm, you will see immediately if you will be crossing in front or behind the vessel. If you decide to begin to change course, you will see immediately (and continually while making the course change) the change in both the CPA and the relative positions of both ships at the CPA. Vesper introduced this feature, but then inexplicably reduced its usefulness and clarity. OpenCPN adopted it almost immediately. It is a very nice feature, particularly in crowded areas and at night in bouncy conditions.

Don't know about the issues with crowded display. There are some adjustments for that, but not many. I don't see the degree of issue on the iPad that your phone shows. However, I do agree that SEAiq does not have the best chart display engine.

That Google Earth thing on iNavx doesn't look like it actually geo-references or overlays the satellite photo - it just looks like it shows you a photo in a separate window? Either that, or Galveston is very poorly charted... SEAiq actually geo-references the photo and overlays it on the chart. And yes, it saves all of them for use off-line, and it is easy to toggle them on and off as wanted/needed.

iNavx's website certainly isn't clear that it will use ENC charts. It only references and examples raster charts and I couldn't find anywhere they mention vector. That took me by surprise, but I'm glad they do. Outside the US, we use the best charts available for any region, and SEAiq has taken them all so far. That includes Explorer charts for the Bahamas, NV charts in the Eastern Caribe, Colombia military charts for South America that I made from geo-referencing high resolution PDF files, Bauhaus charts for San Blas Panama that I scanned from his book and made into .KAP charts, and CMap charts for other places. But again, the greatest feature for us is the ability to make and use our own charts from books, guides, pdf files, google earth, etc.

Again, our needs are probably not common. We don't use an iPad as our primary chart plotter - I prefer a computer for planning, changing, setting up, etc because of the larger display and better interface. We look to our iPad for providing complementary things like portability and for each of us to instantly have at hand an active chartplotter anywhere we want (we take them off watch with us so we can glance at them below, for example). They get used in the dinghy a lot too. We do have a chartplotter at the helm, but that is mostly to feed nav data to the autopilot and act as a general display to show us where we are in a large sense. Everything else is done with the iPads or computer. 

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

The only obsession on this thread is not the guy posting details about an app, it is the people dogging him around complaining about everything he does, and taking personal swipes at him.

It is silly - some of you are spending a lot of time on a thread dedicated specifically to the details and choices of tablet navigation bragging how you never use electronics, and believe that they are bad for people.

Think about that. Why are you on this thread at all? What interest could it possibly have for you? 

I know why - you are all mostly found on other threads containing the same common denominator.

At least attack the subject and not the presenter. If you can't, then please start a thread about how much you hate a certain person and we will all pile in on it and hit the like button for you.

Because I think that validation is really what you are looking for.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> Having begun sailing in the hay day of Loran C... I find the most basic GPS plotter an amazingly helpful device for confirming my position. And that's all I need to know. Back in the old days position accuracy was a big issue. But today these GPS positions are remarkably accurate... certainly for all but the most challenging situations.. like a narrow channel... and for that work you better have good eyesight and be watching.
> 
> Radar is very helpful in poor visibility. But few would attempt threading a series of needles in those conditions unless there was no choice. In open water if dense fog sets in it can be unnerving to say the least where the hazards are other vessels and the odd buoy.
> 
> ...


I agree with a lot of what you posted here, but disagree with some, and have a perspective on a single point.

The perspective. Sorry SanderO, but you (and increasingly me) are old. We are standing on our porches yelling at the young kids to get off our lawns. Your point that there is now way too much information available and displayed is only a perspective of being old. Believe me, the younger sailors absorb all of that stuff, in context, and in usable form. They have been exposed to this level of integration and data presentation their entire lives in almost everything they touch and do every single day. I can barely dial a number on my iPhone, yet my 5yr old niece uses one daily to hack into NORAD, order yellow cake uranium, and do numerous other things with it that are incomprehensible to me. At any given time, that device is throwing all sorts of data, pictures, and sounds at her and she manages it while still carrying on a conversation with real humans, while I am struggling with just the conversation part. Again, she is 5 and I am 55.

As for an integrated autopilot, I understand that you have never actually used a modern one before. You are welcome to your preference, but to put that preference in general terms so stridently and pedantically doesn't reflect well on you, nor does it reflect reality. Three days into a rough passage with little sleep and poorly fed, an integrated autopilot makes for a much safer passage - particularly in current and areas with shoals. In these times, any technology that allows several related and connected processes to occur with a single, simpler, human decision is safer than trying to determine set and drift in huge seas, shifting winds, at 3am and manually attempting to finely, and continually, adjust a dumb AP to compensate. Ironically, one would probably be using integrated instruments to obtain the information needed to feed a dumb AP. The only difference being the human interface in between - which has never worked out well in any context or industry through history.

An autopilot set to follow the wind is the same as a manual windvane - where inexplicably you only seem to have a problem with the AP doing this function, and not with the mechanical windvane. An autopilot set to compass is also integrated to a certain extent, but this seems OK with you. If instead the AP was set to follow COG instead of heading, that becomes an issue with you for some reason.

Technology has greatly increased decent sailing conditions by providing accurate weather forecasts that allows one to chose great conditions. Radar can even help to avoid storm cells.

I agree with the rest of your points.

Mark


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

colemj;2051443778
Think about that. Why are you on this thread at all? What interest could it possibly have for you?
/QUOTE said:


> Lot of the thread is like any other, it's about "winning". Whether some call such a thing providing info till you freakin accept it as THE answer, it's really about winning.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

colemj said:


> The only obsession on this thread is not the guy posting details about an app, it is the people dogging him around complaining about everything he does, and taking personal swipes at him.
> 
> It is silly - some of you are spending a lot of time on a thread dedicated specifically to the details and choices of tablet navigation bragging how you never use electronics, and believe that they are bad for people.
> 
> ...


I have to agree here Mark. I don't always agree with Smack, and back in the bad old days, I would sometimes cringe at some of his more combatative responses. But since his reinstatement, I've been more than a little impressed with his self-control. And contrary to others here, I find the "cut and paste" responses very helpful. I like the pictures and links; the concrete examples are usually informative and make his points. And for those of you who worry that we'll be unduly influenced by Smack's posts, please don't for a minute think that I'm not able to critically review those pictures, links and websites. Anyone with half a brain knows that Mr. Smackdaddy has a specific point of view, and that we are able to review his input and suggestions accordingly. To dismiss those points outright just because you don't like the messenger is just as wrong as to accept them unquestioningly.

I value the input of all here, and I'd like to have the opportunity to continue to learn from all.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

colemj said:


> The only obsession on this thread is not the guy posting details about an app, it is the people dogging him around complaining about everything he does, and taking personal swipes at him.
> 
> It is silly - some of you are spending a lot of time on a thread dedicated specifically to the details and choices of tablet navigation bragging how you never use electronics, and believe that they are bad for people.
> 
> ...


What is silly Mark is allowing misinformation. What is apparent that we hear this same old defense of a disagreement turned around to beleive it is personal attack when in actuality it is about the response to misinformation. Think of it this way if the person you are obviously defending would limit his posts as well as the overall length there would follow less posts trying to set a balanced point of view.

What I see i your post is a defense of an individual because it is not an evenhanded response to get to a thread which you don't have to sift through the cut and paste bull to garner the nuggets of great new information. I rarely see a conflict where one individual is solely wrong and the cause of the conflict rests with one/ group of individuals. Had your post been more objective or even handed in its assigning solutions it would also contain suggestions to the other poster also. It quite commonly is a defense " everyone is after me" , " theres a conspiracy or posse against me" to try and personalize this so it appears that someone is being attacked and divert attention what the real issue is.

I could care less about Internet personalities. I post here not to specifically find fault with others but to learn from others. Sailnet has offered me the opportunity to meet some on here personally and also develop real relationships. I also post on here to give back what I have learned in 40 years of sailing so as to potentially help other sailors. Dominating a thread with incessant huge posts and pictures, a repeated put downs of others opinions, as well as 10 times postings of other sailors, is not the norm for ANYONE else on Sailnet. Why don't you look at that aspect? In most of the threads that I can offer and opinion usually I post maybe a thread most a couple of times....not 50 to beat others into submission my point is correct. Maybe that's why you get the appropriate response from others saying the same thing. When I see a fire....I don't get consumed on all the individuals fighting it, I look for its source also.

BTW I enjoy reading you contributions which have made me think about this current topic as well as others posts you make in other threads. In this thread it can be difficult to find them though after I weed through the cut and past jibberish, but no mind.

To me enough has been said. It is obvious many here use a combo of I pad and Chartplotter when they can. Most posters/ readers here are recreational sailors not long term cruisers. Their solutions for navigation prolly start with mobile devices, I Pads and after a while graduate to Those devices plus a dedicated Chartplotter. That's what I see with my own two eyes. That what I see in my sailing comrades, that's what I see on the Chesapeake and LI Sound. That's what I see in marinas I visit or when I stop for diesel.

I don't see a bunch of old timers not wanting to change or modernize. I in fact see many who want to use modern technology as an aide to navigation to ASSIST them in navigating where they are, point out the obstruction, channels , currents, tides etc. Most don't need to plot and download routes. Most want something permanent they can rely on, direct connected, interfacing with other instruments or stand alone that is simple. That's why the MFD are so popular. I Apads have assisted in driving down their prices.

I suggest instead of listening to the musings of armchair Internet sailors go down to your closest marina.
Walk up and down the docks. Count how many boats 28 Ft or larger have MFD vs those who don't. That will give you an answer. I also beleive that's where you find most of the Sailnet sailors.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

colemj said:


> ....
> 
> Technology has greatly increased decent sailing conditions by providing accurate weather forecasts that allows one to chose great conditions. Radar can even help to avoid storm cells.
> 
> ...


I love technology and use it to sail and it does inform my sailing and make it safer.

For me the AP is simply a robot standing the helm which will steer the coarse I tell it too. My decision is informed by the data I have available and the observations I make.

I can take naps on AP under certain conditions... and I have for 20 minutes single handing passages of 1000 miles.

MOST of the time I am not exhausted and on watch and tweaking the sails and or the AP. No biggie. I prefer to be the brain to steer the boat.... not a robot.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I have a video review on my Android system. The vids a bit old, 2016, but its still valid. At the time I only ran the system on my phone and it was my primary system for a 35 foot sailboat I was cruising the 1000 islands with. I now have the system on my tablet as well. The tablet system has much better planning capabilities than the phone system, but I haven't done a vid on it. Maybe I should do an updated vid this afternoon comparing phone version, to tablet version compared to my Garmin 60 CSx.

I have pretty decent experience with a variety of chart plotter systems. I have been using them consistently for work since 2003, both commercial grade and yacht grade; ECDIS, Aldebaran, Nobeltec, Garmin, others whose name escapes me right now. I don't use apple devices, I haven't ever since they started charging for iTunes...

I have used many advanced features on charting systems; Rescue Salvage operations really benefit from being able to program in sector and grid searches into the system and letting auto do the heavy lifting, which puts an extra set of eyes on the horizon for searching. However, I remain extremely unconvinced of the needs for a lot of the advanced features for a sailboat moving at 5 knots. Nothing against it, some people like to play with electronics, some people don't. I am in the middle.

The planning features of Plan2nav on the tablet I find to be adequate for route planning, the cell phone version I find adequate for real time pilotage only.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> I prefer to be the brain to steer the boat.... not a robot.


I'm assuming in my response here that you meant to use the word "navigate" and not "steer" in the above sentence, because the autopilot is doing the actual steering regardless of level of integration.

So I don't understand which part of "navigating" do you consider not using one's brain and relegating to the AP? Is it choosing a waypoint to head toward, or a route to follow? Is it choosing the wind angle to steer to? Is it selecting a compass heading to follow?

Because all of those are done by a human brain when using an AP fully-integrated with the rest of the nav electronics. They are done in the exact same manner as without an integrated AP.

Perhaps you just mean that a non-integrated AP requires a human to push the dodge button every so often to tweak the boat back on course due to leeway or current or similar? Or to keep to a set apparent wind angle? If so, I view that as an inconsequentially minute shading of definition.

After all, both navigators are making the same choice in the same way for the same reasoning - ie, "I want to go to this point without experiencing much drift from a straight line because there is a shoal to port", or "I want the boat to stay at a wind angle of 40* because the wind will gradually back through the night". The sole difference is the exact tiny detail of how many times a button is pushed by the human to make the AP steer to the human's decision.

Doesn't seem to be a difference to me. Certainly not a difference to be alarming about.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> I don't use apple devices, I haven't ever since they started charging for iTunes...


Huh? When/where did this start? We have 3 iphones, 2 ipads, 2 macbooks, and 2 windows PCs. The iphones, ipads, and macbooks come with itunes on them for free, and itunes for the PC's was also free but I had to download it.

AFAIK (recent to last December), apple does not charge for itunes and it is freely available for windows also (maybe other platforms).

Are you sure you aren't confusing itunes with apple music? The latter is a music subscription service like spotify and similar, but it isn't itunes.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SanderO said:


> Most sailors are not usually sailing in unfamiliar waters where plotter is especially helpful.


That's actually kind of sad. And I think it's the root of most of the problems around here in these discussions.

To be honest, I hate continually sailing (being stuck in) "familiar waters". That NEVER was what drew me to sailing. Sailing is about going places - not doing laps. And I'e done plenty of both.

That's actually one of the reasons I chose to sell _Dawn Treader_ instead of bringing her back to Galveston Bay. I certainly don't want or need a boat like her to do laps. It made no sense to me. FIASCO! will do us just fine in that regard. Yet, sadly, I won't be needing my iPad MFD for that. Kind of sucks.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

mstern said:


> But since his reinstatement, I've been more than a little impressed with his self-control. And contrary to others here, I find the "cut and paste" responses very helpful. I like the pictures and links; the concrete examples are usually informative and make his points.


Thanks stern. I'm trying. I really am.

And I'm glad my posts are helpful to someone out there.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

colemj said:


> Huh? When/where did this start? We have 3 iphones, 2 ipads, 2 macbooks, and 2 windows PCs. The iphones, ipads, and macbooks come with itunes on them for free, and itunes for the PC's was also free but I had to download it.
> 
> AFAIK (recent to last December), apple does not charge for itunes and it is freely available for windows also (maybe other platforms).
> 
> ...


iTunes started as free music sharing app. A bunch of dudes would get together with their Compact Discs upload them to iTunes and swap music. I had a sweet collection of Reggae, Metal, Punk some time around the early 2000s apple changed the direction

of iTunes to a for profit platform to encourage the use of apple music. A series of forced updates for iTunes made it increasingly difficult to swap music and use old play lists acquired by swapping. It was the ultimate bait and switch, get people hooked on a product, then redirect the product to sell stuff. I find it strange that such an avid apple user doesn't remember that. It bugged me so much at the time that I swore I would never use another apple product again, and I haven't. Probably in the neighbourhood of 15 years now.

I am not getting into an apple debate, I am not going to continue on with this discussion past this post, you can have your opinion on whether that happened or not, but nothing you type will convince me it didn't. You chose to purchase apple products, I chose not to. End of storey.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> We are using our Vespar to provide the NMEA wifi feed, but SEAiq will use any TCP or UDP address. I have connected it to my laptop acting as a NMEA UDP output from OCPN with no issue. It will also act as an a NMEA server for feeding other devices. Don't know why they only list two AIS products for this, unless it was only to demonstrate compatability with the most popular commercial gear.
> 
> The AIS CPA vectors are more than just extended COG lines from boats. Those also exist and are user-adjustable to whatever time you want. But more importantly is the way the CPA is displayed. I can't post a picture from here, but when there is an AIS target, COG vectors are produced from both the target and ownship. Those vectors are variable in length and end for both ships at the calculated CPA. So the ends of the vectors are where the two ships will be at their CPA. There is a small circle on the ends of each vector with a dotted line connecting those circles. This dotted line has the CPA distance overlayed on it. For example, if there is a crossing situation with a CPA of 0.1nm, you will see immediately if you will be crossing in front or behind the vessel. If you decide to begin to change course, you will see immediately (and continually while making the course change) the change in both the CPA and the relative positions of both ships at the CPA. Vesper introduced this feature, but then inexplicably reduced its usefulness and clarity. OpenCPN adopted it almost immediately. It is a very nice feature, particularly in crowded areas and at night in bouncy conditions.


That is seriously cool. I had no idea. I'm almost positive iNavX (nor the iMux) has any of that capability. I never really dug deeply into the SH GX2200 VHF/AIS capabilities - but even if this was part of that radio, I don't think the apps were set up for that data.

Why did Vesper diminish this???



colemj said:


> Don't know about the issues with crowded display. There are some adjustments for that, but not many. I don't see the degree of issue on the iPad that your phone shows. However, I do agree that SEAiq does not have the best chart display engine.


I'll try to pull SEAiq down on my newer iPad this week and see if there is a significant difference. I'll also play around with the display settings to see what's doable there. I'm obviously new to it - so what you see in my images is just what comes out of the box.



colemj said:


> That Google Earth thing on iNavx doesn't look like it actually geo-references or overlays the satellite photo - it just looks like it shows you a photo in a separate window? Either that, or Galveston is very poorly charted... SEAiq actually geo-references the photo and overlays it on the chart. And yes, it saves all of them for use off-line, and it is easy to toggle them on and off as wanted/needed.


You're right. In iNavX it's just a pop-up with a Google Earth image of the area - no other references like you seem to get with VentureFarther. Definitely a win for SEAiq in this column - especially with the overlay capability. That's freakin' huge.



colemj said:


> iNavx's website certainly isn't clear that it will use ENC charts. It only references and examples raster charts and I couldn't find anywhere they mention vector. That took me by surprise, but I'm glad they do. Outside the US, we use the best charts available for any region, and SEAiq has taken them all so far. That includes Explorer charts for the Bahamas, NV charts in the Eastern Caribe, Colombia military charts for South America that I made from geo-referencing high resolution PDF files, Bauhaus charts for San Blas Panama that I scanned from his book and made into .KAP charts, and CMap charts for other places. But again, the greatest feature for us is the ability to make and use our own charts from books, guides, pdf files, google earth, etc.


In this regard SEAiq definitely seems to be more open-sourced. I'll have to look into it a bit more - but I think your only chart options in iNavX are the ones listed in the Fugawi collection I linked above.



colemj said:


> Again, our needs are probably not common. We don't use an iPad as our primary chart plotter - I prefer a computer for planning, changing, setting up, etc because of the larger display and better interface. We look to our iPad for providing complementary things like portability and for each of us to instantly have at hand an active chartplotter anywhere we want (we take them off watch with us so we can glance at them below, for example). They get used in the dinghy a lot too. We do have a chartplotter at the helm, but that is mostly to feed nav data to the autopilot and act as a general display to show us where we are in a large sense. Everything else is done with the iPads or computer.
> 
> Mark


I appreciate you taking the time to explain it and provide specific examples. From what you've shown me - I think I have to take back my conclusion that SEAiq is not as robust as iNavX. They seem to be on the same level.

Thanks again.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

colemj said:


> I'm assuming in my response here that you meant to use the word "navigate" and not "steer" in the above sentence, because the autopilot is doing the actual steering regardless of level of integration.
> 
> So I don't understand which part of "navigating" do you consider not using one's brain and relegating to the AP? Is it choosing a waypoint to head toward, or a route to follow? Is it choosing the wind angle to steer to? Is it selecting a compass heading to follow?
> 
> ...


My AP does not accept GPS steering data for starters.... and I am not about to upgrade so IT can tweak instead of ME tweaking. I also STEER with the dial on the AP... there is no dodge button. The my wind data is not exported to my MFD... it is stand alone and displays at the nav station and the cockpit. Same for the compass, speed and depth.

If I am sailing AND the mark is sailable... IE not in the upwind... I can sail a rhumb line to the mark. If not we have to tack and I make those decisions... and I trim the sail...and I turn the AP to the next tack heading. AP turns the help. I turn the dial.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> That's actually kind of sad. And I think it's the root of most of the problems around here in these discussions.
> 
> To be honest, I hate continually sailing (being stuck in) "familiar waters". That NEVER was what drew me to sailing. Sailing is about going places - not doing laps. And I'e done plenty of both.
> 
> That's actually one of the reasons I chose to sell _Dawn Treader_ instead of bringing her back to Galveston Bay. I certainly don't want or need a boat like her to do laps. It made no sense to me. FIASCO! will do us just fine in that regard. Yet, sadly, I won't be needing my iPad MFD for that. Kind of sucks.


Sailing in familiar waters to me is from NYC to Eastport Me or a Cruise to the Chesepeake and that is not doing "laps"... maybe motoring from the mooring to the fuel dock is "doing laps".

I consider local cruising going places... not as exotic as when I sailed in the Caribbean or the Canaries or the north coast of South America.... but reality is I need to sail from a home base and I suspect 98% of sailors are the same.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Here is a decent article for folks who want to let their autopilot do course corrections for them. There are inherent risks. They are well studied. The risks were considered significant enough that all STCW licensed navigators were mandated to take a 5 day course. Globally mandated 5 day courses don't happen without good reason. I did the course, it was mix of theory and simulation, heavy on the simulation. I did not think the course was too long, I thought it was about right.

The problem is for recreational sailors, nobody makes them study to learn the inherent risks in misusing or over using this type of technology. MFD manufacturers will not tell you, electronic charting software manufacturers will not tell you and apple certainly will not tell you because they are all interested in making money by selling products. Lots of experienced navigators instinctively know the risks, but lots of less experienced navigators, not so much.

Any way, here is a very short article, its written for professional navigators, but applies equally to recreational navigators.

https://www.marineinsight.com/marin...sider-while-using-auto-pilot-system-on-ships/


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SanderO said:


> Sailing in familiar waters to me is from NYC to Eastport Me or a Cruise to the Chesepeake and that is not doing "laps"... maybe motoring from the mooring to the fuel dock is "doing laps".


Ah, yeah, that's a much bigger area than I thought you were talking about. And you don't use a chartplotter in any of these areas?


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Ah, yeah, that's a much bigger area than I thought you were talking about. And you don't use a chartplotter in any of these areas?


I am using now... Ray C80 and as a back up Stand Horizon CP170 (this CP170 will give up its real estate to a Vesper) AIS B. I use a B&G T7 portable mounted in the cockpit under the dodger and I refer to my Android 7 active with Navionics.

When I was living aboard and cruising the Caribe etc... I had no plotter.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> iTunes started as free music sharing app. A bunch of dudes would get together with their Compact Discs upload them to iTunes and swap music. I had a sweet collection of Reggae, Metal, Punk some time around the early 2000s apple changed the direction of iTunes to a for profit platform to encourage the use of apple music. A series of forced updates for iTunes made it increasingly difficult to swap music and use old play lists acquired by swapping. It was the ultimate bait and switch, get people hooked on a product, then redirect the product to sell stuff. I find it strange that such an avid apple user doesn't remember that. It bugged me so much at the time that I swore I would never use another apple product again, and I haven't. Probably in the neighbourhood of 15 years now.
> 
> I am not getting into an apple debate, I am not going to continue on with this discussion past this post, you can have your opinion on whether that happened or not, but nothing you type will convince me it didn't. You chose to purchase apple products, I chose not to. End of storey.


The reason this avid apple user doesn't remember it is because it never happened. At least not as you describe. From the start and to this day, you are free to rip your own music to itunes and share it with others. A couple of us cruisers did just that a week ago, and we swap libraries and playlists often with people.

Perhaps you are confusing own music with music bought through the itunes store from apple? That did have DRM constrictions in the early days, but it couldn't be considered a bait and switch by any stretch of imagination.

The factual timeline for itunes was 1) Apple bought SoundJam, a music player product, from another company and renamed it itunes in 2001. 2) iTunes initially only ripped and played music that someone put into it. This music could be shared with others. 3) In 2003, Apple started a music store by convincing the big companies to sell digital versions. They convinced them by implementing digital rights management, which only allowed music bought through the store to be played on five other computers. People were still free to rip and share their own music bought elsewhere - only the music purchased through the itunes store had DRM constraints. 4) After digital music caught on big, Apple removed all DRM in 2007, and also allowed past DRM music to be redownloaded without DRM. 5) Since 2007, all music can be freely shared with others.

I'm not debating this, and am not an apple shill. But I am being factual - you don't have to accept that, and I don't mind. If you don't want to accept this from me, maybe you will be more accepting from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITunes . It is well-referenced there.

BTW, all I did was ask you when they started charging for iTunes (your original assertion). It was a genuine question because I actually thought they did do that - I don't keep up with things closely and was worried there was some big change. Don't understand the underlying aggression I felt in your response.

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Its the changes in 2003 that I am referring to. Like I said, I haven't used any of their products since. I really don't know how the updates affected your itunes, but I was blocked from moving all previously ripped music off an older ibook and ipod to a new ipod and ibook with the 2003 update. I haven't used it since then, so I have no idea what has been happening with the company for the last 15 years, maybe they fixed things up so I can recover my old tunes from my old G1 ipod- I haven't tried.

Apple has publicly apologised for being caught at this exact sort of thing in France and faces multiple lawsuits around the world, particularly in France. I cant see any reference to them being caught being tricky with their updates on the Wikipedia page, but I can find it in the news. https://globalnews.ca/news/3953740/apple-investigated-france-slow-iphones/

The reason my tone was defensive was because there have been many pages of ipads being pushed as the best chart plotters ever and I really don't buy that and was expecting blowback from the appleaid drinkers for suggesting there are alternatives.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Well, believe me, I am very, very, very, very suspicious of anything apple does these days, and haven't liked any of the directions they have moved in the past few years.

What you describe as happening in 2003 was the addition of digital music for sale in itunes. It had nothing to do with itunes itself, and was an entirely new business for apple. Nobody had to buy digital music from itunes, but it was the only legal form of digital music at the time and it had DRM constraints. Any music you owned from other sources was free to be shared as one saw fit, but music purchased off itunes could only be shared with five other people.

I have been through every update of itunes, along with several ipods, and not a single update has prevented me from sharing my music with others (DRM purchased music excepted). In fact, this has never happened to anyone. 

What may have been confusing for you at the time is that every so often the itunes library format changes to implement newer algorithms and features. This can prevent previous music from being transferred to new ipods and even shared with others using the different format. However, itunes has always automatically reformatted old libraries to be compatible with new versions (and it only takes a minute or two). Perhaps you saw the warning that is always given that your library is out of date and needs to be reformatted, and confused that with something nefarious.

There is no way one should reasonably conflate an iphone battery issue with a perceived devious behavior 15yrs previous to a piece of software (which demonstrably didn't actually happen), let alone hold it up as an example of continual devious behavior. At least I can't go that far. Not even with companies I truly dislike.

Unless one is intentionally looking for boogymen. 

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> ... there have been many pages of ipads being pushed as the best chart plotters ever


iPad has become almost synonymous with "tablet", and what I have read so far seems to be used that way in this thread.

Also, it is inescapable that more marine software exists on the iPad, and most new software comes to that platform first before migrating to Android.

What I have read here so far refers mainly to about software choices and differences, as well as tablet functionality and suitability in general. Little of it is actually iPad-centric, although "iPad" term is used.

Mark


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

I remember the Sony Beta days.
I hate the proprietary products....
I've never bought or used an AAPL product, and may never will. Seemed like a cult...
But, the big laugh...I have Garmin plotters....

Whatever....


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> The reason my tone was defensive was because there have been many pages of ipads being pushed as the best chart plotters ever and I really don't buy that and was expecting blowback from the appleaid drinkers for suggesting there are alternatives.


Can you show me where this push is?

I've stated many times that I definitely think iPad chartplotter solutions are generally superior to most traditional chartplotters and even many new MFDs when compared feature-by-feature, including price - but I don't recall ever saying that they were "the best chart plotters ever".

As for "blowback from the appleaid drinkers" - I'm sure not seeing any...at least not from that flavor of koolaid anyway.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> That's actually kind of sad.


Not necessarily. I think it would if stuck around Galvenston and living full time on the boat with a (mostly) full season available. But in someplace like upper Long Island Sound or Chesapeake Bay, and weekend sailing or short term cruising, there are many, many interesting places to keep one happy for a long time. Particularly when boats need to be laid up for parts of the year.

We spent 18yrs doing so out of Mystic CT and still reminisce fondly about all of the special places we found, and talk about all of the places we never got to.

Not all of us have the same intensity and degree of wanderlust. We like to explore and move around, but we also like to spend several years in areas while doing so. If we do get around the world, we will be very old by the end - and have learned to speak 15 languages, and remain in contact with 100's of good friends made in different countries, and have eaten so many things we didn't even know exist and which gross out our families.

On the other hand, there are yearly whole groups of those who go all the way around the world in 14 months. And need to do it at that pace just to keep sane.

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

colemj said:


> Well, believe me, I am very, very, very, very suspicious of anything apple does these days, and haven't liked any of the directions they have moved in the past few years.
> 
> What you describe as happening in 2003 was the addition of digital music for sale in itunes. It had nothing to do with itunes itself, and was an entirely new business for apple. Nobody had to buy digital music from itunes, but it was the only legal form of digital music at the time and it had DRM constraints. Any music you owned from other sources was free to be shared as one saw fit, but music purchased off itunes could only be shared with five other people.
> 
> ...


Call it what you want. If you figure they just started playing with planned obsolescence in the last few years, that's cool, believe what you want. Picking apart my language doesn't change my mind about the brand one bit.

I have a 20 year old Garmin Etrex that functions like the day I bought it and it still gets 16 hours of battery life every usage. About 12 years ago my saddle bag got caught in the drive chain of my motorcycle, got torn to shreds, then run over at 100 km by the 18 wheeler I was passing. The Etrex was in the saddle bag, screen got cracked, but the unit continues to function like new even in rain and driving spray. When I am selecting marine electronics, my very top priority is reliability.

I am an end user, and really couldn't care less about the nitty gritty of why stuff from certain companies seems to stop working, what matters to me is that they do. This is why I didn't want to get into this with you, I knew it would be all semantics and the point would be entirely buried in the refuse.

Buy whatever you want, I don't care, I was trying to share what I use with the OP and I have more than enough experience and real world examples to make my own decisions.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> Can you show me where this push is?
> 
> I've stated many times that I definitely think iPad chartplotter solutions are generally superior to most traditional chartplotters and even many new MFDs when compared feature-by-feature, including price - but I don't recall ever saying that they were "the best chart plotters ever".
> 
> As for "blowback from the appleaid drinkers" - I'm sure not seeing any...at least not from that flavor of koolaid anyway.


Ya, and you have claimed to have evidence and fact to support your opinion, while my opion remains just that, my opinion.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> Not necessarily. I think it would if stuck around Galvenston and living full time on the boat with a (mostly) full season available. But in someplace like upper Long Island Sound or Chesapeake Bay, and weekend sailing or short term cruising, there are many, many interesting places to keep one happy for a long time. Particularly when boats need to be laid up for parts of the year.
> 
> We spent 18yrs doing so out of Mystic CT and still reminisce fondly about all of the special places we found, and talk about all of the places we never got to.
> 
> ...


That's an interesting point about the northeast I hadn't really considered. We've now sailed the entire northern Gulf from the Rio Grande to S. Florida - and I think the issue for me is perhaps more due to distances and similarity than anything else. Most of the Texas coast is very similar all the way from Mexico to LA...until you start nearing New Orleans - then it gets much more interesting. And there are not a lot of ports, etc. along the way.

I suppose in that same distance in the NE - you can see A LOT of different stuff in a lot of different seaside towns. That would be cool.

I'll have to make it up there at some point. The Chesapeake Lion Posse definitely owes me a few beers. Heh.

In any case, you're right - Galveston Bay is a fantastic sailing area if you're into daysailing and weekending. I've got far too much WanderLust to be content with that.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> Ya, and you have claimed to have evidence and fact to support your opinion, while my opion remains just that, my opinion.


That's fine. But I'm still asking you where I've claimed that ipads are "the best chart plotters ever" like you say. This is actually important because it fits into a lot of the hyperbolic accusations/complaints that have been flying around.

I'm not saying I never said it somewhere - especially as a joke. I just don't remember saying it...especially not for pages and pages like you say. I'm usually more particular with my words than that. So if you can find it - I'm interested.

In any case, to be clear, I don't believe that ipads are "the best chart plotters ever". But they are damn good. No question about that...based on the evidence.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> Call it what you want. If you figure they just started playing with planned obsolescence in the last few years, that's cool, believe what you want. Picking apart my language doesn't change my mind about the brand one bit.
> 
> .....
> 
> I am an end user, and really couldn't care less about the nitty gritty of why stuff from certain companies seems to stop working, what matters to me is that they do. This is why I didn't want to get into this with you, I knew it would be all semantics and the point would be entirely buried in the refuse.


Oh come on, that's hardly a fair representation of my responses.

You stated that apple started charging for itunes, which was a bait and switch from being free. I was caught by surprise about this (thinking it did happen), only to find out you were wrong about it (to my relief).

You then stated that when they changed to digital music sales, they prevented your music from being shared. Again, you were wrong about that, and I just clarified where you may have gotten confused years ago.

You then stated that updates to iTunes prevented all old music from ever being played or transferred. I pointed out where you were confused on that issue, and that iTunes simply needed to do some sanitary work in the background to let you do so.

At no time did I pick apart your language or play a semantics game. I stated facts and even provided references for you to check my facts. The points were never buried in refuse - they were stated as clearly as I could make them. They are facts, nothing more. Check them.

Frankly, iTunes is obsolete whether they planned it or not. It is bloated and features are obfuscated to the point of essentially missing. Its present form is an abomination and I avoid it as much as I can. It desperately needs to be replaced with something else.

But it does not, and has never, prevented anyone from freely sharing their own music, and it does not, and has never, cost anything to acquire it. It also has never prevented previously loaded music from being transferred to new devices or shared.

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

colemj said:


> Oh come on, that's hardly a fair representation of my responses.
> 
> You stated that apple started charging for itunes, which was a bait and switch from being free. I was caught by surprise about this (thinking it did happen), only to find out you were wrong about it (to my relief).
> 
> ...


Really? You provided a reference to wikipedia but failed to mention that they have openly admitted to and apologised for planned obsolescence. Planned obsolesence and proprietary control (and the frequent exercising of that proprietary control) is what i have an issue with.

Go find somebody else to nit pick and prove wrong. I did not come to this thread to learn about chart plotters. I have a diploma in nautical science, an unlimited foreign going mates licence and a crap ton of sea miles on it. I came to this thread to share what I use and how it works for me, as well as a few performance standards that i look for and some pit falls that i would watch out for and you or some one else has taken the time to quote nearly every point I have tried to make and prove me wron, regardless of how irrelevant it was to the topic. Refuse.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Ipad /iOS may be the platform which has the latest marine software. But if it is a powerful I am sure it is quickly available on Android.

There remains an issue with functionality as software is updated. I see that in MS where some non MS software will not run on newer version and one is forced into an expensive upgrade. I see that in the CAD software I use which is OLD circa 2007 and has way way more features than I need. CAD software is intended to serve a whole spectrum of users with different need needs and I am sure that some find the 2007 version like a lumbering dinosaur. I hesitated to upgrade Windows past 7 because of this problem with other software. And then the CAD relies on some 3rd party software which has a habit of automatically trying to upgrade and then the 2007 CAD no longer functions and I have to remove and reinstall the older version. 

Software needs to be backward compatible... and it's often not.

Unless you are an navigation software engineer you probably don't conceive of the next feature to include in the the 
"package". You don't know what you don't know... and so you likely won't miss it. 

From what I can tell navigation software now offers a large compliment of data it can "work with" and present... and do some complex things as drive the boat... doing a lot of the THINKING a competent sailor would do. I think this might make for less competent sailors over time and lazier ones.

And more data means crowded real estate on the screen... or having to scroll through various screens. This is not a good thing in my opinion. YES we benefit from local data... and even regional data... assuming we are able to USE that data.

How each sailor informs him or herself about local and regional conditions should be what works for them... and this includes issues of user interface... instrument reliability and robustness... suitability to the marine environment including electrical needs. Mobile devices rely on wireless signals for the data.. and no every source of data will generate wireless data yet. We barely have universal N2K for transducers... or radar.

I doubt most sailors are ready to abandon the marine chartplotter at the helm or below decks (or both) and replace it with mobile devices. I suppose there are some who will and find it works for their needs and way of sailing and the conditions and region they sail. I also believe most sailors will ADD a mobile platform as a supplement or back up or handy interface.

I believe that marine electronics mfgs are making the software on their MFDs more open sources so they will support 3rd party apps making them more like a PC and a tablet which also use wireless data transmission.

So the answer to the question the OP posed is a resounding YES - mobile devices make a fine back up to a robust marine navigation system. Not much to argue about.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I’m sure that a tablet can do anything a chart plotter can. It’s all just a matter of the system as a whole. At the same time if all you want/need is a backup to your main chart plotter, there small inexpensive chartplotters to consider just having. 

Far as review of various apps etc., it is just more efficient and useful to review the reviews for the app than to sort through a thread like this one.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> Really? You provided a reference to wikipedia but failed to mention that they have openly admitted to and apologised for planned obsolescence. Planned obsolesence and proprietary control (and the frequent exercising of that proprietary control) is what i have an issue with.
> 
> Go find somebody else to nit pick and prove wrong. I did not come to this thread to learn about chart plotters. I have a diploma in nautical science, an unlimited foreign going mates licence and a crap ton of sea miles on it. I came to this thread to share what I use and how it works for me, as well as a few performance standards that i look for and some pit falls that i would watch out for and you or some one else has taken the time to quote nearly every point I have tried to make and prove me wron, regardless of how irrelevant it was to the topic. Refuse.


I didn't fail to mention that - you had already brought up that point, and I failed to see its relevance to the topic of iTunes and your perceived problems with it. It is a non-sequitor to the topic we were discussing. Talk about irrelevant.

As for planned obsolescence. Can you name a chart plotter which hasn't been planned this way? 3 years after buying our Furuno, all support was dropped for it when new models came out. People buying Garmin complain that they can't even get charts for their plotters a couple years after buying them because Garmin drops even that support when they bring out new models. Both our tablets and computers have retained contemporary support longer than our chart plotter.

As for proprietary control. Can you name a chart plotter that isn't proprietarily controlled? Tablets and computers, and their applications, are much more open than any chart plotter I am aware of.

I certainly appreciate yours and everyone's contributions and opinions on topics. I'm not hunting you down and intentionally trying to prove you wrong on every point. However, I don't think anyone is served well by letting wrong information go uncorrected. Opinions can surely be broad and debated, and it is obvious when they are, but facts should not be treated as opinions, and we should not all be allowed our own separate facts.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> Ipad /iOS may be the platform which has the latest marine software. But if it is a powerful I am sure it is quickly available on Android.


Looking back at my post regarding the use of "iPad" as a general term for "tablet", it seems like I may have given the impression that everyone brings their navigation products to iPads and not Android.

This was the case early on because the iPad was the predominant tablet by a large margin for several years. Even now, the iPad remains the predominant tablet, but not by margins large enough to preclude development for Android. Today many apps come out, and are further developed, simultaneously on both platforms, and at times the Android versions leapfrog the iPad ones. There are still iPad-only apps, but there are also now Android-only apps.

The above was the reasoning and thinking I received from the heads of software development for Vesper Marine and SEAiq - both of which had iPad-only apps for a couple of years before developing the Android versions. I presume other app developers have similar thinking.

Mark


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Minnewaska said:


> Rocks and depths were on the plotter and iPad, but you still motored at 1-2kts with a keen lookout on the bow.
> 
> My iPad was open and had the entry crumb trail on it, so I just followed it back out. I could not go below to power everything down in the moment.


The key part of your success in this story was you had your IPAD running on the way into the anchorage, wise move, which is why you had the bread crumbs to help get you out. If your Ipad is down below and turned off it wouldn't of helped you in a Primary nav failure.



Minnewaska said:


> There are several nav apps for the iPad and I can't review them all. As a backup, I'm very pleased with Charts and Tides. It does primary navigation, with the added bonus of having the entire ActiveCaptain database downloaded into it. I use it way more often for AC than I do for nav, although, I will do some passage planning with it too (ie measure distances, check for anchorages, etc). I chose it initially, because it's relatively inexpensive. Although, even the most expensive nav app isn't too pricey.


To me this is where the IPAD really shines. It allows you to be an armchair navigator and trip planner when away from the boat. It allows you to plan your trip from home or over a beer or dinner at the dockside pub. It also works really well as an IPAD, so it's great to have onboard.

Because of it's sensitivity I consider an IPAD third in line for navigation behind my mounted GPS/charts, and handheld GPS.

Wow, just went back to read some of where this thread devolved into. Now I feel bad for contributing to this thread or in any way my actions may have continued it's existence.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

My chartplotter. Very reliable.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I guess I haven't weighed in yet on how we view the chartplotter/tablet thing, and how we use them.

Right now, we wouldn't be without a chartplotter. 

Because of radar. Radar is very important to us, and we use it constantly. Strangely, very few other cruisers we meet use radar much, and many don't even know how to operate theirs. As things stand today, radar on a tablet wouldn't cut it for us because of both the lack of features we use continually, as well as the form factor. To put it more succinctly, very few of the recreational fixed radars meet our requirements. Why not just a fixed radar instead of a combo? Because chart overlay is important to us, as is dual chart/radar windows.

As for the chartplotter that comes along with the radar, it isn't very useful to us. It mostly serves as a position indicator that is always at the helm, as a display for AIS targets on a chart, and as a chart overlay for the radar in poorly charted areas. We do use it as a chartplotter, but all of the planning, and most of the underway stuff is done on computers and tablets. 

The main problems I've found with all chartplotters are that they are slow and their user interfaces clumsy. Even the best ones, and even the ones most like computers and tablets. It is just the nature of them.

So all of our planning is done on a computer because the display, interface, and speed is so much better than any chartplotter. Not to mention the ability to whip over to google earth or google search to find information relevant to the plans, then back to the charting again.

Most of our underway stuff is done with tablets because of the form factor. It is just nicer when laying in the cockpit or off watch in bed below to simply pick up the tablet and see what is going on - AIS targets, instrument gauges, dry-running a change in plans, etc.

On the other hand, if our wifi server goes down for any reason, we lose most of the tablet capability. Kind of. Our computer can be hardwired into the data network and used as a wifi server for the tablets, but this is a bit of a kludge and requires the computer to be operating full-time.

In our use, tablets and computers simply do not have the daylight visibility of our chartplotter, and this is worse when wearing sunglasses. We do have a hardtop over the entire cockpit, and this helps us to the extent that we never have bad readability issues with the tablets, but they are still duller in appearance than the chartplotter.

So we wouldn't be without a fixed chartplotter, but we also don't use it as a primary chartplotter. The computers and tablets are used primarily.

My opinion is that a tablet can certainly be used as a primary chartplotter. Heck, buy four of them for half the price of a fixed chartplotter if reliability is a concern. We meet many, many people cruising who primarily use tablets and computers - most of them because they chose to not replace their fixed plotter when it broke or could no longer accept current charts.

It isn't even debatable whether a tablet can be used as a backup navigation device. We have cameras on board that can even do that function.

So then it comes to which tablet software makes the best chartplotter (which actual tablet isn't really worth debate). So far, the information and opinions presented on this thread has been helpful in forming opinions around this. They are also highly relevant to the original post topic and question. Even if one thinks they are "cut and paste", that is a lot of legwork I'm happy to not have to do.

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

colemj said:


> I guess I haven't weighed in yet on how we view the chartplotter/tablet thing, and how we use them.
> 
> Right now, we wouldn't be without a chartplotter.
> 
> ...


Good summary and very much based on your boat, where you sail and so on. And it makes perfect sense. I think the navigation solution will be somewhat unique for each sailor.

I certainly would not run out and replace the nav station chart plotter were it not for the fact that is the radar screen. We have the Touch 7 in the cockpit and it serves the plotter function. We don't drive the AP from the MFD so that function is not needed.

A suite of electronics is spendy... and if you can do it with a mobile device... it's worth a try... were it not for radar.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jephotog said:


> The key part of your success in this story was you had your IPAD running on the way into the anchorage, wise move, which is why you had the bread crumbs to help get you out. If your Ipad is down below and turned off it wouldn't of helped you in a Primary nav failure.


My iPad typically lives on the chart table, down below. Most of the time, it's plugged into a DC port to stay topped up. I bet I could get it above, load the app and find a position in under 30 seconds. In this case, it was up above, because I like seeing both sources, when entering/exiting sketchy anchorages. My chartplotter is a dinosaur (2004 vintage) and the resolution on the iPad can be zoomed in much closer.

In addition, I'm almost never without my iPhone at the helm. It lives in a velcro pocket and also has Charts and Tides installed. The commonality between iPad and iPhone is a feature I really like. Buy once, use on multiple devices, with the same AppleID. I will frequently take a look at my iPhone app, while underway. I measure distance to destination or just take a look at position, if I'm jammed into a good hold on the pushpitl and don't want to move to see the fixed plotter. In my experience, however, these devices are hard to see in the sunlight. Much harder than the installed plotter. I typically have to position myself between the sun and the screen, but that's doable. The bimini is of little help, other than the middle of the day. I don't need to keep seeing someone else's staged photos to prove their point, every time this issue is raised. We simply have different experiences with it. I've also had the iPad switch off, due to a sensor that can tell it was overheating in the sunlight. I've never had that happen with the phone in my pocket, nor do I think it could ever happen with the installed plotter.

The other time the iPhone is useful is when gunkholing in the dinghy, but even more challenging to shield from the sun.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

My iPad also lives below. 

The one feature I do use regularly is "Currents" on the Garmin Bluechart Mobile. I plan my home departure/arrival to avoid extreme low tides by referring to a current station (Mystic Bascule Bridge) that is 1500' from my shallow water dock. The switchover from ebb to flow is more precise in predicting dead low at my dock than the local tide stations that are miles away. 

In my case, a few inches matter!


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> The commonality between iPad and iPhone is a feature I really like. Buy once, use on multiple devices, with the same AppleID.


It goes further than that. Apple allows sharing apps not only with other devices on the same apple ID, but also with five other separate Apple ID's (family plan, or something like that). So while Michele and I have different Apple ID's, we only need to buy apps once.

I don't know about Android in this manner, but they always seem even more open than Apple in things like this.



Minnewaska said:


> I've also had the iPad switch off, due to a sensor that can tell it was overheating in the sunlight. I've never had that happen with the phone in my pocket, nor do I think it could ever happen with the installed plotter.
> 
> The other time the iPhone is useful is when gunkholing in the dinghy, but even more challenging to shield from the sun.


That is a good point I forgot about. It hasn't happened to us much, but it has happened. Our iPhones used to overheat and shut down often when we used them in a car and sunlight was on them. My iPad has shut down in the dinghy before when I left it in the sun for a bit (it is in a black case and in the tropics, which didn't help).

Our plotter can get so hot it cannot be touched. And this is in the shade. I assume it is designed for this because it has huge heat sinks and a fan. It seems to run the same when hot as when cold.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> I like turning on instruments others can also run, including my wife.


Heehee. I'm just starting to read this thread from the beginning since I seemed to have come into it in the middle, and this sentence made me snort. I prudishly reworded it in my head to grammatically have the meaning I'm sure you meant for it.

But it is the funniest part of the thread so far!

Or maybe you have more interesting sailing outings then us... :grin

Mark


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Bleemus said:


> My chartplotter. Very reliable.


Not really. It is the same chart as loaded into my chartplotter and back-up nav app. But both those devices have a lot better eyes than I do and can read the chart no matter how bouncy the boat gets and no matter what my chartplotter is more likely to know my position on the chart. I still carry paper charts and like them for planning (I also have the same charts on my computer that I use for real planning), but paper is my backup. I have lots on times (especially at night) gone down to my large paper charts to get a better "big picture" view of where I am as the chartplotter can not show enough detail on a 7" screen when zoomed out to 12+ miles.

I'm not interested arguing whether paper is "better" than electronic. Just like any similar example the answer is "it isn't, but........". The only thing paper has over electronic is it's large size for readability and that it doesn't need power to operate (unless of course it is dark out).


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Don0190 said:


> Not really. It is the same chart as loaded into my chartplotter and back-up nav app. But both those devices have a lot better eyes than I do and can read the chart no matter how bouncy the boat gets and no matter what my chartplotter is more likely to know my position on the chart. I still carry paper charts and like them for planning (I also have the same charts on my computer that I use for real planning), but paper is my backup. I have lots on times (especially at night) gone down to my large paper charts to get a better "big picture" view of where I am as the chartplotter can not show enough detail on a 7" screen when zoomed out to 12+ miles.
> 
> I'm not interested arguing whether paper is "better" than electronic. Just like any similar example the answer is "it isn't, but........". The only thing paper has over electronic is it's large size for readability and that it doesn't need power to operate (unless of course it is dark out).


Dude, it was a joke.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

colemj said:


> Looking back at my post regarding the use of "iPad" as a general term for "tablet", it seems like I may have given the impression that everyone brings their navigation products to iPads and not Android.
> 
> This was the case early on because the iPad was the predominant tablet by a large margin for several years. Even now, the iPad remains the predominant tablet, but not by margins large enough to preclude development for Android.


That was a LOONG time ago. See the link I posted earlier in this thread: IOS now has less than 15% of the market; Android's market share exceeds 85%. BTW those data are for the whole mobile market, I don't know of any data specific to the marine sector.



colemj said:


> Today many apps come out, and are further developed, simultaneously on both platforms, and at times the Android versions leapfrog the iPad ones. There are still iPad-only apps, but there are also now Android-only apps.
> Mark


There are more and more of the latter. One of them is OpenCPN, the only navigation app I actually use on the boat, both on a laptop and a tablet (I have it on the phone, too, but I don't really bother with that).


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Bleemus said:


> Dude, it was a joke.


Dude, it completely failed!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> I guess I haven't weighed in yet on how we view the chartplotter/tablet thing, and how we use them.....


Mark, this is a great summary and aligns pretty well to my situation and reasoning behind our choices.



colemj said:


> Right now, we wouldn't be without a chartplotter. Because of radar. Radar is very important to us, and we use it constantly. Strangely, very few other cruisers we meet use radar much, and many don't even know how to operate theirs. As things stand today, radar on a tablet wouldn't cut it for us because of both the lack of features we use continually, as well as the form factor. To put it more succinctly, very few of the recreational fixed radars meet our requirements. Why not just a fixed radar instead of a combo? Because chart overlay is important to us, as is dual chart/radar windows.


When I made the decision to go with the iPad as our primary chartplotter - it was after a ton of research and a couple of critical items. First was radar. We already had radar on the boat. It was an old JRC. I had to put some money into it to get it working reliably - but it worked. It was old enough that it had a separate mono screen below at the nav table...but it would not have integrated with any new chartplotter I bought.

So, the choice was whether to go the iPad route and stick with this JRC - or go with a new chartplotter, radar - and likely instruments as well since all our stuff was the older ST60. This was an absolute no-brainer to me.

As you can see by the chart I posted earlier showing all the rigs we typically sail through around here, radar is indispensable. And with our iPad set-up, we were able to get by very well with what he had.

The Furuno First-Watch was a real game-changer for me and I'm really bummed that I never got the chance to test it. I was completely ready and committed to replace the JRC with this wifi unit - which would turn ALL our idevices into radar screens.

You can't do overlay with iNavX on the iPad (I personally don't like the overlay), but you can easily swap back and forth between the chart window and the radar window. Or you could have the radar running through your phone and the iPad only running the chartplotter app to have them running simultaneously in "separate windows".

That redundancy, price, and capability makes the First Watch a pretty killer app in my book.



colemj said:


> So all of our planning is done on a computer because the display, interface, and speed is so much better than any chartplotter. Not to mention the ability to whip over to google earth or google search to find information relevant to the plans, then back to the charting again.


Same here. But I'm starting to use the iPad more and more even for this (instead of my Macbook). If Waterway Guide would implement a means of setting waypoints there with all that planning info at your fingertips, then being able to pull that in as a GPX to iNavX, I'd give 'em a dollar. THAT would be killer. As I'll show in my video, there is already the ground-work for this connection - so I'm going to talk to them about this.



colemj said:


> On the other hand, if our wifi server goes down for any reason, we lose most of the tablet capability. Kind of. Our computer can be hardwired into the data network and used as a wifi server for the tablets, but this is a bit of a kludge and requires the computer to be operating full-time.


Can you tell me more about this issue? In our case if the iMux goes down, all we really lose is instrumentation overlay and AIS. We still have both of those in the cockpit with the instrument displays and the RAM mic from the VHF with the AIS display. With the internal GPS of the iPad, we really haven't lost anything.

And if we had the First Watch, it's on it's own wifi hub so we would still have that as well.

How are you set up that you would lose most of the capability?



colemj said:


> My opinion is that a tablet can certainly be used as a primary chartplotter. Heck, buy four of them for half the price of a fixed chartplotter if reliability is a concern. We meet many, many people cruising who primarily use tablets and computers - most of them because they chose to not replace their fixed plotter when it broke or could no longer accept current charts.


Totally agree. And that's basically where we were when faced with getting a new chartplotter. I don't regret our decision in the least.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Don0190 said:


> Dude, it completely failed!


I will try harder next time! :Luxury:


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> That was a LOONG time ago. See the link I posted earlier in this thread: IOS now has less than 15% of the market; Android's market share exceeds 85%. BTW those data are for the whole mobile market, I don't know of any data specific to the marine sector.


Yes, I was relating the relative market share in the marine sector as told to me by developers from two companies creating marine apps (Vesper and SEAiq). Android has had the overall market share worldwide for a long time now, but apparently not yet in the marine app space. No doubt this will change.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Can you tell me more about this issue? In our case if the iMux goes down, all we really lose is instrumentation overlay and AIS. We still have both of those in the cockpit with the instrument displays and the RAM mic from the VHF with the AIS display. With the internal GPS of the iPad, we really haven't lost anything.
> 
> And if we had the First Watch, it's on it's own wifi hub so we would still have that as well.
> 
> How are you set up that you would lose most of the capability?


If we lose our NMEA server connection, we are only left with the built-in GPS. So yes, that means losing the AIS, heading, and instrument data - which are important to us, and one of the primary uses of our tablets. But we do retain the basic navigation functions allowed by COG/SOG.

I only meant to point out that there is a single point of failure for the tablet, as compared to a hard-wired fixed chartplotter. On the other hand, there is a work-around for that failure also.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> If we lose our NMEA server connection, we are only left with the built-in GPS. So yes, that means losing the AIS, heading, and instrument data - which are important to us, and one of the primary uses of our tablets. But we do retain the basic navigation functions allowed by COG/SOG.
> 
> I only meant to point out that there is a single point of failure for the tablet, as compared to a hard-wired fixed chartplotter. On the other hand, there is a work-around for that failure also.
> 
> Mark


Gotcha.

But as you know, with a hard-wired fixed chartplotter, there is also a single point of failure...but one that will leave you MUCH more screwed than you would be with multiple mobile devices with their own apps. This seems to be the elephant in the room that traditionalists either overlook or are okay with.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> Congratulations Cole, you are the first and only person to make it to my ignore list.


Hey! Why does he get to be the only one? He's not that special.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

So you have various sources for data to inform the skipper.

boat speed thru the water 
depth 
bottom contours
sonar
apparent wind speed
apparent wind angle - numeric and graphic
true wind angle - numeric and graphic
true wind speed calculated from wind speed, wind angle and boat speed (not SOG)
compass (true and / or magnetic)
radar
ais
current numeric and graphic
position of waypoint
distance to waypoint
course to waypoint
time to go to waypoint (arrival time)
ship's position
SOG
COG
barometer
tide data
tanks
engine data
battery condition

Some of the above are generated by independent transducers - speed, wind, compass, radar, AIS
Some of calculated functions
Some are from annual nautical data (tides and current)
some are from GPS

MFDs are "designed" to receive and display and export these data

Mobile devices certainly can display these data... the issues are:

getting them all onto the device
using some with layers
user interface
number of "data pages"
user interface
visibility in bright sunlight
robustness (waterproof)
battery life

more


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SanderO said:


> MFDs are "designed" to receive and display and export these data...


Sander, for what you're talking about here you really need to separate the hardware from the software. The traditional MFD is both of those - just like an iPad chartplotter solution. And as we've discussed repeatedly, the iPad apps, just like the MFD software/UI, can very elegantly handle all this data with the right hardware set-up and configuration.

This is a very important distinction you need to grasp, because when you make a statement like this...



SanderO said:


> Mobile devices certainly can display these data... the issues are:
> 
> getting them all onto the device
> using some with layers
> ...


It's very clear you don't understand the mobile side of this equation and how robust it can be - and how simple it is to make it happen. Let me try to explain a bit...

In iNavX, this is your chart view...










You can fully configure this top header section to display whatever datapoints you want so that you have heads-up on exactly what you want to see. Then if you click on any of these items, you can get a graphical/list display instead of just the number...for example, if you click on the AWP item, you can immediately change the waypoint, etc. - to set the AP for a new waypoint for example...










There is also a dedicated view for incoming NMEA (and other) data accessed from the "Instruments" button in the bottom footer menu in the above image...










This page, too, is fully customizable so you can see whatever you'd like, and clicking on any item will bring up the garphical/list view for that item...










As for what you can bring in, there are a total of 72 datapoints that cover just about everything you could imagine coming over an NMEA network if you have the means to push it....










So, though there will definitely be differences in UI between the traditional MFD and iPad/iNavX systems shown here, there's very little FUNCTIONAL difference between the two.

For ALL of this capability on the iPad with the NMEA data already on the boat, all you need is something like the iMux which is VERY easy to install if you're at all handy...which most competent sailors are.

As for the other items in your list, we've already been over all that. From actual extensive first-hand experience, those things are NOT a hindrance to using an iPad as a chartplotter - unless one needs them to be for disgruntled discussions on a forum.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I don't see boat speed, wind speed and transducer data the mobile device... I see GPS related data...

Daddy I am perfectly aware of the difference between 

transducers which supply data:

speed log
depth sounder
radar
anonometer
ais receiver

and 

devices which manipulate and display data

MFDs
mobile devices

charts are loaded much like tide info


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Smack, can you show a screenshot of a radar overlay? What about the MARPA functions?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> Smack, can you show a screenshot of a radar overlay? What about the MARPA functions?


George, as I mentioned above, there is currently no radar-over-chart overlay capability in iNavX that I know of. I know that OpenCPN came out with a plugin a while back that allows it...










...but I'm not really a fan of that usage. It's just too much clutter for too little return of good info in my opinion (apart from alignment/position checks). I've almost always used a split-screen on traditional plotters in our offshore sailing/racing. But there's also not yet a means of split screen in iNavX that I know of.

That said, it's still very easy to get both views on the iPad with the Furuno First Watch app - you just flip-screen between the two apps. I'll show this more in the GeekZone video I'm doing, but here's how it's done...

I can have iNavX up at the helm...










Then double-press the iPad's Home button and easily swap between active apps...










Select the FirstWatch app and you get the live radar screen...










Then you can switch back just as easily. OR you can leave iNavX up on your iPad and have the radar app running on your phone for a manual split-screen.

_(Note: Again, I've not yet tested the speed and connection-reliability of this radar app live and probably won't. But the capability is unquestionably there - and was why I was about to spring for it.)_

So, I just don't find this to be an issue. And I have no doubt that better integration will happen soon.

As for MARPA - doesn't AIS solve this function more affectively? I've seen some bad reviews on it as currently implemented in the traditional brands - one of them being BenE...



> Does Navico 4G radar (branded as Simrad, Lowrance, or B&G) have a "ridiculously broken MARPA" function? I've heard similar words from three different 4G owners in the last few weeks, and that's enough to interrupt the boat show and summer testing entries I'm way behind on. I don't have a definitive answer, however, plus I'm skeptical that Navico's MARPA is especially bad because in my experience all small radar Mini Automatic Radar Plotting Aids are somewhat flaky for what seem like fairly obvious reasons&#8230;


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> As for MARPA - doesn't AIS solve this function more affectively?


Absolutely not. AIS only displays vessels transmitting AIS signals, which is still a very small percentage of recreational craft and not even all commercial craft. AIS will also not show unlit oil rigs, ice bergs, floating debris, islands.

One of my favourite uses for MARPA overlay on electronic charts is showing out of position buoys. Very easy to detect with an overlay, but can be difficult to detect with the naked eye.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> Absolutely not. AIS only displays vessels transmitting AIS signals, which is still a very small percentage of recreational craft and not even all commercial craft. AIS will also not show unlit oil rigs, ice bergs, floating debris, islands.
> 
> One of my favourite uses for MARPA overlay on electronic charts is showing out of position buoys. Very easy to detect with an overlay, but can be difficult to detect with the naked eye.


Cool. Thanks. That makes sense.

Then from Ben's review of the top brands, if you're one to believe the guy, it sounds like it has a ways to come before you can really trust it for recreational boating.

_PS - In your list of hazards above, it seems MARPA would really only be critical for moving, non-AIS craft (which was the example Ben used where he explained the issue of inaccuracy in today's recreational radar making it hard to trust). In other words, I don't really see the need - necessarily - for MARPA for oil rigs, ice bergs, debris, island - etc. as they don't really have a speed component to speak of (especially oil rigs) - and if your radar is good, you're seeing the closing distance and heading already._


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

At night, MARPA is a godsend, especially for recreational craft. Being able to determine course, speed and CPA of a silent target is very cool.

Radar overlay is also useful, to pick out charted returns from potentially moving targets, but mostly near shore.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> Cool. Thanks. That makes sense.
> 
> Then from Ben's review of the top brands, if you're one to believe the guy, it sounds like it has a ways to come before you can really trust it for recreational boating.


I still really like AIS for recreational boats, even the receive only. It does show the big scary things like fast moving freighters. Having said that, for those with the budget (ie not me) MARPA overlay is a valuable tool, especially in high traffic density.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Here is Ben's general conclusion on MARPA...



> But how many boaters actually use the MARPA they may have? I'm obviously not a big fan myself, and when I searched Panbo for past references it turned out that I used the only MARPA titled entry mostly to discuss attractive alternatives like the True Echo Trail feature seen above emanating from a Furuno DRS2D radome. That little radar can even do full-on ARPA, the automatic radar tracking that's usually only available on ships, but note that Furuno has removed many such advanced features from the similar DRS4W WiFi radome and even the new no-separate-power-supply DRS4DL. While the prices for these radars is much lower and the user interface much simpler, a Furuno rep at FLIBS also told me that not many recreational boaters use MARPA, ARPA, True Trails, True Motion, high RPM, and similar features, anyway. *You could say they're lazy, but I think that most modern radomes offer a lot of useful information without the extra features, especially combined with AIS and chart overlay. When a yachtsman says that MARPA is critical to safe navigation, I tend to wonder if they've been overly influenced by the commercial world where radar beam widths are much narrower and pulses much shorter*.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> But as you know, with a hard-wired fixed chartplotter, there is also a single point of failure...but one that will leave you MUCH more screwed than you would be with multiple mobile devices with their own apps. This seems to be the elephant in the room that traditionalists either overlook or are okay with.


I wasn't clear. I meant to lose all NMEA data on the tablet only requires a single point of failure (the NMEA server). To lose all NMEA data on a chartplotter requires the entire NMEA network to go down. While this is also a single point of failure, it would also fail to provide NMEA data to the tablet.

Having the hardware device itself (chartplotter or tablet) fail is the same result for both.

FWIW, I don't view this failure as very risky or likely - I was just pointing it out for completeness.

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Whether actual experience matters, seems to only apply when it supports one's predetermined conclusion.  That's why the cut and paste criticism. 

Many recreational boaters don't bother to learn how to put in a route, let alone make MARPA work. If you are just slightly more technically adept than it takes to operate a TV remote, MARPA is not hard to use and is very useful when the target is silent, or worse, dark. Also, when you pick up a radar reflector on a deep fishing pot or net (which will have a much stronger return than expected), it's very informative to see that it's not moving and keep one from wondering why they can't find nav lights on the horizon.

It gets flaky when the target is not very strong, but it's worked way more often than not for me. It also occurs to me that most boaters don't even go out in conditions where visibility is this restricted. I admit I use it frequently to see whether I'm gaining or making ground on a buddy who may be sailing the same direction too.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> At night, MARPA is a godsend, especially for recreational craft. Being able to determine course, speed and CPA of a silent target is very cool.
> 
> Radar overlay is also useful, to pick out charted returns from potentially moving targets, but mostly near shore.


Radar is also effective in fog. In our area of SE New England, say from Old Saybrook to Marthas Vineyard, there are LOTS of non-AIS boats out there, including the numerous small fishing boats anchored in Watch Hill passage and the other passages between WH and Fishers Island. Radar is a real eye-opener for folks who have never used it when then can see that power boat on a plane in 1/8 mile visibility coming down on you.

It's always a good idea to practice with your RADAR in clear weather, so you can trust it in poor visibility. While you are practicing it you can have fun at the dock to determine, via MARPA, if that idiot in the channel is exceeding the speed limit as you are getting waked.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> I wasn't clear. I meant to lose all NMEA data on the tablet only requires a single point of failure (the NMEA server). To lose all NMEA data on a chartplotter requires the entire NMEA network to go down. While this is also a single point of failure, it would also fail to provide NMEA data to the tablet.
> 
> Having the hardware device itself (chartplotter or tablet) fail is the same result for both.
> 
> ...


I understand. What I meant is that on the traditional side of things - even with mobile repeaters using the proprietary apps - if the *MFD itself* goes down, you're screwed as it's typically the hub for everything in that scenario (including the NMEA data). And because most all MFDs are less waterproof than an iPad in a Lifeproof Nuud case, and work from a single electrical source, the odds are certainly not inconceivable (although slim as you say).

So, just being a bit cheeky to underscore a ***** in the perceived armor of the "dedicated, marine-grade" solution. It's important to look at this stuff from all angles I think.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Ben is great with testing and evaluating electronics, and knows the industry inside and out. However, he mostly just putters about in harbors, generally in daytime, and his usage is always with constant high-speed internet connections and the like. He does not have a sailboat, and doesn't even have a cruising boat (let's not argue that definition). As such, I find some of his opinions and evaluations greatly lacking in a real-world cruising arena.

MARPA/ARPA is one of those. Navico definitely has issues with MARPA - it is really not even usable, and the Raymarine units I have used are only a bit better. However, Furuno has a full-blown rock solid ARPA (note the acronym difference) implementation. We use it all the time and it is one of the most important navigation tools for us. I've never used Garmin's.

I have no experience with commercial radars, and no experience with ARPA until we got a unit that had it (and implements it very well). Then I RTFM, which apparently makes me rare in the cruising community, if not in general.

I did get to spend 3 months this summer operating a boat with a Furuno 12kW 6' open array. Sweet Jesus that was a nice radar. I think it could track individual flies 6nm out.

Lack of ARPA is one reason Furuno's first watch wouldn't work for us.

I understand the point about why manufacturers are deprecating MARPA/ARPA functionality on their new units. Most of the people we meet with radar never use them, or even understand how to use them beyond pushing the power button and hoping to see something they understand. I have yet to meet anyone who even knew their radar units had a MARPA/ARPA function - or at least have ever used it if they did know about it.

It is beyond me why that situation exists, because I think it is like intentionally keeping one eye closed. But that is the way it is.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Incidentally, as for Ben's Panbo review above, I *certainly* think he has enough experience and expertise to make judgements on tech like MARPA. He's a pretty widely-recognized expert across the industry on this kind of stuff, and seems to be somewhat open-minded. And many around here seem to take his word as gospel. Like you Mark, I don't always agree with his viewpoints - especially for things he's not tested first-hand. And he is definitely a putterer it seems. But in this case, he has personally tested these systems, laying out very solid examples (he seems to have even done a bit of cutting and pasting with pics, graphics, etc.) - and rationale for why he thinks what he thinks - and has drawn his conclusions. The source of this kind of information is always very important, I think. And Ben's a pretty damn good source who knows what he's doing. So it's worth bringing into the conversation.

What I take from his very well-documented review (and the very informative comments below the article) is that if you're going to rely on MARPA on your sailboat, you'd certainly better understand how that radar you have is generating that data you're relying on - and how accurate it is...unless the 12° degree and 7.4 knot errors in the MARPA calculations he shows are no big deal...










Of course, this now getting into a completely new subject. So I'll leave the MARPA thing for now.

Mark, do you have the Furuno DRS2D radome he mentions for that ARPA capability?

George, you are definitely one of the most experienced, reliable guys around SN - what has been your actual experience with its use on your boat? And what gear do you have?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> That's fine. But I'm still asking you where I've claimed that ipads are "the best chart plotters ever" like you say. This is actually important because it fits into a lot of the hyperbolic accusations/complaints that have been flying around.
> 
> I'm not saying I never said it somewhere - especially as a joke. I just don't remember saying it...especially not for pages and pages like you say. I'm usually more particular with my words than that. So if you can find it - I'm interested.
> 
> In any case, to be clear, I don't believe that ipads are "the best chart plotters ever". But they are damn good. No question about that...based on the evidence.


Im sure if you did say it you edited it by now and sanitized it. No one else I know on here edits one of their posts 6. Hours later like you do or has 1/20th the amt of edits.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Yes, he does understand ARPA/MARPA, and I didn't mean to imply he didn't. His review of it that showed issues was with Navico's implementation of MARPA (Simrad, B&G, Lowrance). And it is terrible - unusable, in fact. Your screen shot is a Navico system.

I don't disagree with his technical assessments, and doubt I could. I do disagree with his opinion that ARPA/MARPA isn't very useful for cruising boats, and his questioning of us who say it is important. That was the part of your quote of his I was responding to.

We have the DSR4D, which is the 4kW dome. The DSR2D is the (wait for it) 2kW dome. Both have the same functionality and processing, only the DRS4D has more power in the pulse output. This just translates into a bit better resolution and detection and possibly longer range - although range is more a factor of mounting height than power.

Both have excellent ARPA implementations. None of the issues he found with the Navico radars exist with ours. If a target isn't moving, it shows dead stopped on ARPA regardless of the violent motion of our boat. When I select an AIS target with ARPA, it returns the exact information on COG/SOG/Bearing/CPA/TPA/etc as the AIS does. 

Concurrent with good ARPA functionality is a good heading source with a fast update rate and multi-axis stability. The compass is why many systems, particularly older ones, never perform ARPA/MARPA well. Interestingly, we are using a Navico compass with our Furuno radar - the same compass he was reviewing with - so the problem with the MARPA implementation is definitely in Navico's radar and software.

Mark


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Mark, this is a great summary and aligns pretty well to my situation and reasoning behind our choices.
> 
> When I made the decision to go with the iPad as our primary chartplotter - it was after a ton of research and a couple of critical items. First was radar. We already had radar on the boat. It was an old JRC. I had to put some money into it to get it working reliably - but it worked. It was old enough that it had a separate mono screen below at the nav table...but it would not have integrated with any new chartplotter I bought.
> 
> ...


Here you go again shilling for the First Watch. 
Never had one
Don't know anyone who has real life experience with one
All you know about them is their infomercials which you cut and pasted and posted

Mentioning a product repeatedly you have high regards for when they were going to give you one for free seems a conflict to me.

Seems like a good concept ( what wireless radar wouldn't be ..duh)...but who knows if it truly is executed well or is in reality a Ford Pinto you are hyping


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Im sure if you did say it you edited it by now and sanitized it. No one else I know on here edits one of their posts 6. Hours later like you do or has 1/20th the amt of edits.


Chef, you can't seem to get away from this conspiracy theory of yours. You keep bringing it up over and over. So let me address it.

I edit my posts because I'm a writer and communicator. I put together a post and I post it. Then if I see in that post misspellings, or something that could be more clearly stated, or added info that would be helpful to the reader within the context of that post - I make the edits. That's really it.

Your continued suspicions and assignation of "evil" to this practice is silly. I don't need to work that hard. I'll tell you what, find a post of mine you are convinced is me retroactively pulling the wool over the eyes of the entire sailing world and I'll show you the edits.

For example, here are the 7 edits I made to that post above to George.










The reds are the original, the greens are the edits.










Do you see any evil "sanitation" going on here, Chef? You really should stop following me around and needlessly harassing me. I believe there are rules around here about that - at least rules I have to follow anyway. Maybe you guys don't.

Beyond this, I'm done responding to you.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> Yes, he does understand ARPA/MARPA, and I didn't mean to imply he didn't. His review of it that showed issues was with Navico's implementation of MARPA (Simrad, B&G, Lowrance). And it is terrible - unusable, in fact. Your screen shot is a Navico system.
> 
> I don't disagree with his technical assessments, and doubt I could. I do disagree with his opinion that ARPA/MARPA isn't very useful for cruising boats, and his questioning of us who say it is important. That was the part of your quote of his I was responding to.
> 
> ...


Cool thanks. Yeah, that was the unit he was pretty high on as regards MARPA/ARPA - so that makes sense. And you're right about that review's focus on Navico. Thanks for the feedback.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> No one else I know on here edits one of their posts 6. Hours later like you do or has 1/20th the amt of edits.


I do. No matter how hard I try, I often find my posts with errors or needing clarity hours (even days) after posting them. Spelling mistakes bug me to know end (that was intentional), and grammar and clarity sometimes elude me while composing.

Communicating through writing can be difficult and full of traps, even setting aside the inability to make humor or irony come across correctly.

I've never attached any meaning to people editing threads, and I am grateful for SailNet's liberal policy on this. I have also never noticed any post that significantly changed from an edit.

On the other hand, I did have one experience on that evil forum further up the alphabet where one dip rod did completely change his post after my response to have a totally different context and meaning altogether, which left my response looking very bad. I got dinged for that, even though I had the original post to show.

But it didn't make me paranoid.

Mark


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Chef, you can't seem to get away from this conspiracy theory of yours. You keep bringing it up over and over. So let me address it.
> 
> I edit my posts because I'm a writer and communicator. I put together a post and I post it. Then if I see in that post misspellings, or something that could be more clearly stated, or added info that would be helpful to the reader within the context of that post - I make the edits. That's really it.
> 
> ...


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Please act like adults.

The topic should be closed... no one disputed that tablet navigation is a good back up to chart plotters. They are designed for the marine environment and that may be the down side.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SanderO said:


> Please act like adults.
> 
> The topic should be closed... no one disputed that tablet navigation is a good back up to chart plotters. They are designed for the marine environment and that may be the down side.


No, the topic should not be closed. There is a lot of learning going on here among those who are interested.

Posters should just post about the topic - not simply harass people, or continually poo-poo something they have no interest in learning about. I only responded to Chef because he's been hounding me about this issue and others for many pages and posts now (e.g. - 22, 37, 40, 48, 84, 116, 185, 198, 222, 223, 231, 297, 299) to which I've not responded. And I wanted to clear it up.

I'm done with that. And now back to the topic.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> I do. No matter how hard I try, I often find my posts with errors or needing clarity hours (even days) after posting them. Spelling mistakes bug me to know end (that was intentional), and grammar and clarity sometimes elude me while composing.
> 
> Communicating through writing can be difficult and full of traps, even setting aside the inability to make humor or irony come across correctly.
> 
> ...


If you're talking about CF, I had MODERATORS do that with me. Seriously whacked place that. I agree with you on SN's policies - if it's about good information, editing is important. If it's about a small group of people trying to control everything that is said and the way it's said - or threads get closed because they don't like something - CF is your place. SN has been - and hopefully still is, we'll see - much more tolerant of spirited discussion as long a rules don't get egregiously broken.

As for the topic, the MARPA thing has been very educational. I've never used it before - but I was never deep into radar tech. It's good to learn this stuff.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> If you're talking about CF, I had MODERATORS do that with me. Seriously whacked place that. I agree with you on SN's policies - if it's about good information, editing is important. If it's about a small group of people trying to control everything that is said and the way it's said - or threads get closed because they don't like something - CF is your place. SN has been - and hopefully still is, we'll see - much more tolerant of spirited discussion as long a rules don't get egregiously broken.
> 
> As for the topic, the MARPA thing has been very educational. I've never used it before - but I was never deep into radar tech. It's good to learn this stuff.


start a new thread about the features of tablet navigation... where people can present and discuss those features.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SanderO said:


> start a new thread about the features of tablet navigation... where people can present and discuss those features.


Sander, many of us are doing that *here* - IF you and others will simply allow the discussion to continue. What makes you think a new thread will be any better when those who are not willing to stay on-topic here simply come into that new thread and start again? Is the solution really to just repeatedly close good threads because of a few who refuse to stay on-topic and stir things up in each of those threads?

If you'd personally like a different angle on this particular subject, please feel free to start a new thread. I'd be happy to offer input where I can if it's of interest to me. Thus far, this one has been great - at least with those who are truly participating in the topic of discussion.

Speaking words of wisdom...let it be.

I'm still waiting to hear back from George. I'm interested in his take on MARPA.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Sander, many of us are doing that *here* - IF you and others will simply allow the discussion to continue. What makes you think a new thread will be any better when those who are not willing to stay on-topic here simply come into that new thread and start again? Is the solution really to just repeatedly close good threads because of a few who refuse to stay on-topic and stir things up in each of those threads?
> 
> If you'd personally like a different angle on this particular subject, please feel free to start a new thread. I'd be happy to offer input where I can if it's of interest to me. Thus far, this one has been great - at least with those who are truly participating in the topic of discussion.
> 
> ...


fine...carry on


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

I know nothing about MARPA. Back in the late 80s and early ninety's we had a Furuno radar with a 4 foot sensor. We could tweak it to see waves and current chop in remote inlets. It was incredibly sensitive. We could see islands with elevation from 50 miles plus easily. It had a "Trail" feature which was great for tracking squalls and ships. We didn't have AIS. We didnt rely on the Trail feature for collision avoidance. We simply would put the cursor on the ship as soon as we saw it. If it didn't change over a short time I would alter course. 

I loved the Trail function for squall tracking.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I haven't read every word of every post, but I've gotten the overall tone. I'm staying out of the religious wars on tablet vs. turnkey chartplotter, or iOS vs. Android, etc. But a few short comments:

For me, I keep my 16 year old Garmin chartplotter at the helm turned off. It's ready if I ever need it, and I test it periodically. My primary chartplotter is tablet based, and it pulls in AIS receiver and all instrument data via Bluetooth and Wifi, so it's all in one device and everything can be logged together. This works great for me, but I just sail inland. For offshore, I can see why people would want a more weatherproof and salt-proof solution.

I like OpenCPN best, and will probably try it out on an Android tablet this season. But for 7 years I've been running it on Windows, where I do planning at home on my big screen, and use a Windows tablet on the boat for real-time use in the cockpit. I keep my charts and program files on an SD card so the whole configuration can be moved to whatever tablet or laptop I have available. I have two identical Windows tablets for redundancy. I keep routes, waypoints, and track logs on Google Drive, where it's synchronized between home and boat anytime I'm on an internet connection. I would share the model of tablet that I use, but they're always changing so my recommendation is out of date. Suffice it to say that it has a super bright screen and matte finish screen protector, which makes it fully visible in the cockpit.

If you're going to consider tablet navigation, you really should also consider Windows tablets, especially if you have any Windows navigation programs that you like to use. It makes the transition from desktop to boat very seamless. And Microsoft's conversion of Windows to work on both tablets and desktop/laptop is one of the most underrated tech accomplishments of this decade.

For backup I have three options: A Garmin handheld for really foul weather (though I also have a suction cup RAM mount for putting my tablet under the dodger), and also my iPhone with Garmin's Bluechart Mobile (which can import the same .gpx routes as I use on Open CPN), and the aforementioned Garmin chartplotter (which don't import or export nuthin').

I also keep some paper charts, and have refreshed my old-school navigation skills a couple times.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Regarding Garmin's very nice Bluechart Mobile app, I do think that people should be concerned about its discontinuation. From everything I've read, the new Garmin Activecaptain app is not a full-fledged app for real-time GPS, and it forces you to abandon your purchased Bluecharts and buy new charts instead. It also sounds like to get its full functionality, you need to upgrade your chartplotter to a late model networkable design. All in all, it's sounds like a money grab on Garmin's part. Will they also cripple Navionics in a similar way?

Then we have Apple, who has eliminated the ability to backup apps on iTunes and iCloud (they now only backup your "most important data and settings"), so if you upgrade your device or get a repair that forces you to reset the device, there is no Apple authorized way to restore your Bluechart app.

I have an iPhone, but as you can probably tell I am NOT a fan of Apple.

Feel free to correct any factual inaccuracies in this post if you have actual experience. I'm basing this on stuff that I've read. I'm not going to delete my Bluechart app to verify.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Although glossed over to some degree there are limitations which are meaningful and need to be accepted. There seems to be a consensus pads are a viable backup. In fact I don’t see a single cruiser or professional mariner on this thread who hasn’t been doing this for years. Now it’s fairly standard to be running pads and the hardwired system simultaneously on many boats. 
I know everyone’s style is different. I have a couple of things I insist on from watch standers.
1. Change the magnification. There’s different info on the screen at different mag. The pad programs I’ve used make it harder for me to catch potentially important detail. I like the bigger screen and more lumens. Personally find it harder to abstract what I want from a pad. We’re running navionics. Maybe I’ll switch after going through that wonderful spreadsheet posted earlier.
2. Overlays are a great thing. Looking at screens is boring but a necessary evil. It’s not uncommon to pick up something on the radar overlay then go to a split screen or flip back and forth from chart to radar to chart. It’s further not uncommon to switch through the presets (bird,harbor, coastal, offshore) or tune directly to what I want or fiddle with the rain setting. On my boat I need the RM up to do that. There’s no way to do that from a pad. I find if it’s fast and easy I’ll do it and it’s just possible crew will to.
3. As things evolve we commonly add and subtract MARPA and AIS target details to the screen. The buddy function is very helpful. Being able to SEND your AIS information as gotten us away from trouble more than once going through traffic at night. Seeing, cognitively processing and manipulating this information is much more user friendly on a mfd than a pad imho. 
4. I glance at the screen and don’t want to have to search for the information I want and like not having to switch back and forth between screens to get what I want. Nor do I like having to fiddle with the pad or mfd when my focus should be outside the boat or on sailing the boat. We customize our screens. With these presets and with good overlays our situational awareness is improved. What I want dancing through open ocean squalls or NYC harbor traffic is different. Using the joystick with gloves on to click on a AIS target for a point/time of closest approach is facile and low stress. I find when switching between screens I want it to be quick and dirty getting the information I should be looking at to pop out at me.
5. We use radar a lot. Not just for targets but also to navigate and local weather. Seeing the outline of the shore on an approach keeps me organized. Even in daylight let alone Maine fog. Use it kind of like following a depth contour going around a reef or island. Not maximizing its ease and utility is not using the capabilities of a delightful, very helpful device. 
6. The biggest fight in recent years is getting people’s head out of the screens. Can’t stress enough how this one factor has become a major detriment to good watchstanding. Have actually had to ask people to put the pad below so they would actually sail the damn boat.

Over and over again those posting here have agreed pads are good and a viable way to navigate. But over and over again they’ve confirmed the ergonomics of using mfds enhances the likelihood you can be situationally aware even when you don’t have a preconception of what’s going to be important.

The rigidity of sd is unfortunate. Saying mfds are not necessary is not true. For many they represent the better primary option. For others they aren’t necessary. Think ultimately what label is on the screen (phone, pad, laptop, mfd) you are looking at in the moment will be irrelevant. The device you’re looking at is just a display.
Rather there will be one or multiple processors broadcasting needed information across a myriad number of screens. This reality is already being seen on many boats. Even our boat has it to a significant degree. 

Would note when we are using the pad the small screens (e90s) become more important. Have a few at the companion way. Might have one at depth, another showing AIS, another AWA/AWS and so forth.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

TakeFive said:


> Regarding Garmin's very nice Bluechart Mobile app, I do think that people should be concerned about its discontinuation. From everything I've read, the new Garmin Activecaptain app is not a full-fledged app for real-time GPS, and it forces you to abandon your purchased Bluecharts and buy new charts instead. It also sounds like to get its full functionality, you need to upgrade your chartplotter to a late model networkable design. All in all, it's sounds like a money grab on Garmin's part. Will they also cripple Navionics in a similar way?


I just got a new iPad and iPhone and expected to recycle Garmin Bluechart. It worked on the iPad, but I couldn't get the maps on the iPhone. I can update Active Captain on both devices, but am lacking the detailed charts on the iPhone. The Chart Store process seems to be unavailable at this time.

So, I downloaded the Garmin Active Captain ap on both devices and tried to follow the instructions for capturing charts previously purchased. I couldn't get the ap to recognize my Garmin Oregon ID and it didn't seem to recognize the chart chips from a reader (as it should have in both cases per the Garmin instructions.). Net result, we are dead in the water trying to recapture detailed charts-except for Bluechart on the new iPad only, and it seems the chart store isn't working if we wanted to buy new charts (not that I would as a matter of principle.)

This is my first really negative experience with Garmin and it is really a turn off. Fully understand Take Five's cynicism.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> ......
> 
> The rigidity of sd is unfortunate.
> 
> ........


Heh-heh.

Your preferences above are perfectly fine, out. Use what you want. Some of your stated assumptions/conclusions regarding the iPad, however, are wrong.

Stay tuned. I think this GeekZone video is going to be quite enlightening...well, at least to those who don't suffer from acute rigidity.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I would make a plea to stay on subject, but that would end the entertainment factor of the thread that is keeping it going.

But I would say a new thread titled something like “tablet for primary navigation” would be called for if the current descion is to be useful to all those that who ago stopped reading this one that was titled “... as backup”


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

For those, like Kriss, interested in using the iPad for navigation - a quick note...

As you're looking into it and learning about it, *if you are genuinely curious about it*, I would encourage you to not to think like this...

A) I don't see X on the iPad or navigation app - therefore it doesn't exist.

B) I don't know how to do Y on the iPad or navigation app - therefore it's not possible.

C) All of the above.

You'll notice that even I, the globally recognized Svengali of mobile navigation, stood corrected when I jumped the gun on SEAiq and Colemj corrected a couple of my initial errant assumptions. That's good. It's learning.

All it takes is to have an open mind, understand the technology as best you can - and know that you probably don't know everything about it (or anything else) - even if you think you do. Then just dig in a bit and learn.

As I said above, I've discovered several things in this exercise about the iPad solutions that will reverse many of the previous criticisms thrown at them above. I'll show those in my videos.

But what's funny is now that George introduced MARPA - which I really didn't know much about previously (thanks George) - it has become to some naysayers all the rage of something that you HAVE to have if you're a "prudent skipper". "Aha! Your iPad can't do that can it?!" Yet in all the past discussions of this topic I don't recall any of those guys ever bringing it up before. Funny how that works.

But there's another side to this MARPA thing which effects the broader conversation... Some people may really like and rely on it, but if it's true from these articles that the major manufacturers are phasing it out of their units - it's a moot point. The only way one could "fight for it" in the context of this discussion is to insist that all "prudent skippers" should (at least according to these articles I've seen) ONLY buy the older Furuno DRS2D/DRS4D unit (or the MUCH more expensive pro units) - always. Is that a reasonable course of action to advocate? I don't think so. There's a reason Furuno, who apparently has/had the best technology in this arena, is moving away from it.

Maybe it's to help certain sailors keep their heads up and out of their overly burdened traditional chartplotters? Who knows?

So, the bottom line is that older perhaps beloved technologies and methodologies are fading away. That's just reality. And new technologies are making HUGE strides and becoming increasingly powerful.

I personally think it's good to be on the bleeding edge of the middle - with an open mind - and see where things go.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> Cool. Thanks. That makes sense.
> 
> Then from Ben's review of the top brands, if you're one to believe the guy, it sounds like it has a ways to come before you can really trust it for recreational boating.
> 
> _PS - In your list of hazards above, it seems MARPA would really only be critical for moving, non-AIS craft (which was the example Ben used where he explained the issue of inaccuracy in today's recreational radar making it hard to trust). In other words, I don't really see the need - necessarily - for MARPA for oil rigs, ice bergs, debris, island - etc. as they don't really have a speed component to speak of (especially oil rigs) - and if your radar is good, you're seeing the closing distance and heading already._


I'm not going to go into too much detail to avoid excessive critisism, but since it was directed at me I will give a few quick hypothetical examples.

I don't think you need MARPA for any of the above. It's a useful tool, how useful will vary depending on circumstances and skill of the operator.

When we are talking about MARPA, I assume we are talking about any modern RADAR with automated tracking capabilities.

Tracking RADAR can be used to estimate currents. It can be used by a drifting vessel to estimate the relative track of a fixed object like an island. Current can also be estimated by tracking a drifting object in relation to a fixed object.

I know not many here are into high latitude stuff, but since it came up. Ice is not homogenous. I could write pages on using tracking RADAR in ice, but here are a few quick examples. Imagine 4 different basic ice types; fast shore ice, drifting pack ice, grounded ice Berg's and drifting ice Berg's. Drifting ice is a serious hazard, especially for a small fibreglass yacht. Fast shore ice and grounded ice Berg's will appear the same as islands on a tracking RADAR. Drifting Ice Berg's will be mostly influenced by current, and can be well worth tracking for an anchored yacht. Newfoundland gets ice Berg's well into the summer, so we do have members here who sail in that region. Drifting pack ice will be more influenced by winds and surface currents and there can be value in tracking it to an anchored yacht. Pack ice goes quite far south for those of us who push our seasons.

Tracking RADAR can be used to differentiate between work vessels and structures like rigs.

I know not all of these will be relevant to every one of us and I am sure somebody can point out an error in my post, but those are just examples of how tracking RADAR could be used. Especially given the low power consumption of modern recreational RADARs.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> I'm not going to go into too much detail to avoid excessive critisism, but since it was directed at me I will give a few quick hypothetical examples.
> 
> I don't think you need MARPA for any of the above. It's a useful tool, how useful will vary depending on circumstances and skill of the operator.
> 
> ...


Arc, thanks - that's great info above...especially the ice stuff. I obviously have ZERO experience with ice - and don't plan to ever start. I like beaches and bikinis - and those are rare in Greenland I understand.

The only nitpick I'll provide is your comment that I "directed" a post at you. I don't really do that. I usually *quote* a person's post and respond to it, like I did and have done yours. That's very different than making a post and mentioning someone in particular - not in response *to them* - but just generally "directed" *at them*.

I think it's an important distinction as a lot of that kind of thing goes on around here and I don't want to be part of it. If I have something to say, I'll say it directly to that person. I think that's more gentlemanly.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have used it to remain aware of dredgers, bouys free of their attachments, debris, drifting fish boats, large tows awaiting canal or harbor entrance and naval vessels doing exercises behaving erratically as I can’t figure out what they’re doing. None of these occurrences happened in high lat. 
Very simple on a mfd. Personally have no clue how to do this on a pad.


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## DotDun (Dec 23, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> But what's funny is now that George introduced MARPA - which I really didn't know much about previously (thanks George) - it has become to some naysayers all the rage of something that you HAVE to have if you're a "prudent skipper". "Aha! Your iPad can't do that can it?!" Yet in all the past discussions of this topic I don't recall any of those guys ever bringing it up before. Funny how that works.
> 
> But there's another side to this MARPA thing which effects the broader conversation... Some people may really like and rely on it, but *if it's true from these articles that the major manufacturers are phasing it out of their units* - it's a moot point. The only way one could "fight for it" in the context of this discussion is to insist that all "prudent skippers" should (*at least according to these articles I've seen*) ONLY buy the older Furuno DRS2D/DRS4D unit (or the MUCH more expensive pro units) - always. Is that a reasonable course of action to advocate? I don't think so. *There's a reason Furuno, who apparently has/had the best technology in this arena, is moving away from it.*


Smack,

In my very quick peruse of the thread, I can't find any reference to these 'articles' you are referring to. I would like to read them, please point me to them.

I find the claim that Furuno is 'moving away' from ARPA interesting as their current marketing literature has added the moniker of 'Fast Target Tracking' to their ARPA technology. Unless there is some new(er) product line coming where they drop support for ARPA that I'm not aware.

If in fact other manufacturers are dropping support for their 'MARPA', that is understandable as some are useless, hence it's either a fix it or forget it product feature for those.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

DD there’s a very good thread on SA disclosing the pluses and minuses of MARPA. I have a 2013 RM set up. Have had good luck with it on that set up. 
When there are a bunch of targets think it’s easier to drop the overlays (radar/AIS) on a split screen with chart on one side and AIS/radar on the other. We have a 12” screen at the helm so things remain readable. Still will go to a full screen of chart with overlays and flip to a full screen of radar/AIS time to time. I have trouble seeing stuff on the less well lite smaller screen of the iPad. So don’t even bother looking at the pads during tight sphincter moments. 
Other trick (as the MARPA gets a bit better as you leave the thing on ) is to tract everything you think might be trouble then drop them as you think about them and they seem not to be of concern. If a target has a good AIS signal I don’t bother with radar tracking it. Of course it still shows up on the sweeps. Keeps from getting a cluttered screen.
Be curious what’s other folks experience and technique.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

DotDun said:


> Smack,
> 
> In my very quick peruse of the thread, I can't find any reference to these 'articles' you are referring to. I would like to read them, please point me to them.
> 
> ...


Hey dot - I linked to it in my post above on this, but it might not have been very visible. It's a 12/15 article by Ben Ellison of Panbo who many recognize as an industry expert in marine electronics - and especially radar.

In fact, several here held up his somewhat negative review of the First Watch radar we've discussed here as gospel, even though he'd never tested it first-hand...just saw it at a boat show from what I recall (he also mentions it in this article).

So, as I said above, I don't always buy what he's selling - but overall I think he's a pretty good resource.

https://www.panbo.com/marpa-on-small-radars-is-navico-4g-especially-bad/

Here is one of his pertinent quotes...



> But how many boaters actually use the MARPA they may have? I'm obviously not a big fan myself, and when I searched Panbo for past references it turned out that I used the only MARPA titled entry mostly to discuss attractive alternatives like the True Echo Trail feature seen above emanating from a Furuno DRS2D radome. That little radar can even do full-on ARPA, the automatic radar tracking that's usually only available on ships, but note that Furuno has removed many such advanced features from the similar DRS4W WiFi radome and even the new no-separate-power-supply DRS4DL. *While the prices for these radars is much lower and the user interface much simpler, a Furuno rep at FLIBS also told me that not many recreational boaters use MARPA, ARPA, True Trails, True Motion, high RPM, and similar features, anyway.* You could say they're lazy, but I think that most modern radomes offer a lot of useful information without the extra features, especially combined with AIS and chart overlay. When a yachtsman says that MARPA is critical to safe navigation, I tend to wonder if they've been overly influenced by the commercial world where radar beam widths are much narrower and pulses much shorter.


It was the rep's comment, plust the fact that they've discontinued M/ARPA in the DRS4DL (*which was one of the best M/ARPA units*) - that seems to point to the deprecation trend on the recreational side of things. I do think there will likely always be higher-end units available for this tech, and it is likely that they just discontinued it in these lower-price, tablet based units due to app compatibility or whatever - but with its generally poor reputation and limited use, recognized by Furuno itself - I'm not buying M/ARPA stock.

I don't know what SA thread Out is referring to - but there is one from 11 years ago called "Why MARPA Sucks".


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> DD there's a very good thread on SA disclosing the pluses and minuses of MARPA. I have a 2013 RM set up. Have had good luck with it on that set up.
> When there are a bunch of targets think it's easier to drop the overlays (radar/AIS) on a split screen with chart on one side and AIS/radar on the other. We have a 12" screen at the helm so things remain readable. Still will go to a full screen of chart with overlays and flip to a full screen of radar/AIS time to time. I have trouble seeing stuff on the less well lite smaller screen of the iPad. So don't even bother looking at the pads during tight sphincter moments.
> Other trick (as the MARPA gets a bit better as you leave the thing on ) is to tract everything you think might be trouble then drop them as you think about them and they seem not to be of concern. If a target has a good AIS signal I don't bother with radar tracking it. Of course it still shows up on the sweeps. Keeps from getting a cluttered screen.
> Be curious what's other folks experience and technique.


Out - no offense, but the more you describe this stuff, the more it sounds like you are seriously head-down in your chartplotter in sketchy situations...which is the opposite of what you've been advocating prior to this MARPA discussion.

As I said above, I've not used MARPA in the past - but it seems there's only one situation where it's *really* useful - and that is with a moving target that has no AIS at night, in the fog, etc. And I fully agree that that is the most dangerous situation for a sailboat. But when you factor in the astonishingly poor accuracy of most units out there as discussed in the Panbo article, it certainly seems to be that you'd have your head down looking at *very questionable data* and flipping between screens at exactly the wrong time. That doesn't sound smart to me.

As Colemj pointed out (and Ben confirms in his article) the DRS2D/4D units are very good at M/ARPA and are very useful - but I guess I'm just not seeing M/ARPA as a great tool except in very limited circumstances. And according to that Furuno rep, it sounds like I'm not alone.


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## DotDun (Dec 23, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Hey dot - I linked to it in my post above on this, but it might not have been very visible. It's a 12/15 article by Ben Ellison of Panbo who many recognize as an industry expert in marine electronics - and especially radar.
> 
> In fact, several here held up his somewhat negative review of the First Watch radar we've discussed here as gospel, even though he'd never tested it first-hand...just saw it at a boat show from what I recall (he also mentions it in this article).
> 
> ...


I'll withhold my opinion of Ben/Panbo, but in the post you referenced, he was taken to task by a reader who knows and understands (M)ARPA and the differences between Furuno and the other products. Obviously, I'm a fan of Furuno's ARPA.

The Furuno model you mentioned (DRS4DL) is no longer available, hence no documentation available from Furuno as to the status of ARPA on that unit. All the current selling radomes from Furuno that compete in the recreational space have ARPA, including the DRS4DL+.

I posted a comparison between Class B AIS and Furuno ARPA on CF. ARPA updates faster that Class B AIS, hence more accurate/fresher target data.

Like has been mentioned by others, I believe radar is intimidating to the average boater, hence they decline to learn how to use it properly and miss out on advantages like ARPA. Radar/ARPA shows you everything, AIS only shows vessels equipped with such. I personally like to see everything.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Dot - I took a quick look at Furuno's site to see which units have the M/ARPA (or Fast Target Tracking capability as you point out). It seems all their high-end open array units have it - which you'd expect. And the NXT series (DRS6A-NXT @~$4K and DRS4D-NXT @~$2K) both have it. But I'm not seeing it with their other recreational boats offerings - even the DRS4D itself.

So, it does seem to me that they are definitely shifting their product line toward simpler, lest costly solutions for the recreational market. Even so, they are pushing some of the non-M/ARPA units as "work boats" capable like their other high-end units...specifically the DRS4DL which is geared toward the NavNet touchscreen MFD use. So I'm wondering if it's also a technical issue with these newer MFDs as well.

PS - I just saw your note on the DRS4DL being discontinued (we apparently posted at the same time). I don't know anything about that - I'm just going on what is *currently listed on their website* (see thumbnails below) - and the only ones they mention the FTT on are those I mentioned above...


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I am not familiar with Ben, but I have used Simrad 4Gs on 12" MFDs quite a bit on small comercial vessels. I was thoroughly impressed by their performance at short range, even with tune and gain set to automatic. These units were professionally installed, so that might have been a factor. These units could track a seagull sitting on the water. I used them for river navigation (big river), so I used them mostly to spot ice and debris. I would also drop tracks on small islands, rocks or points of land that were of particular concern for me (to help me distinguish the item of concern from the clutter).

I wasnt using these units like weapons guidance systems to calculate precision CPAs. I like to give myself lots of room, so I cant comment on how accurately it calculated course vectors, I am primarily concerned with relative vectors for collision avoidance any way.

A couple of theories (these are theories, my opinion, not fact), the users complaining about accuracy were gamer/tech types who expected video game accuracy, the units were not being used correctly, the units were improperly installed, or maybe my usage style allows for lower performance expectations (in which case the primary factor is me).


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## DotDun (Dec 23, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Dot - I took a quick look at Furuno's site to see which units have the M/ARPA (or Fast Target Tracking capability as you point out). It seems all their high-end open array units have it - which you'd expect. And the NXT series (DRS6A-NXT @~$4K and DRS4D-NXT @~$2K) both have it. But I'm not seeing it with their other recreational boats offerings - even the DRS4D itself.
> 
> So, it does seem to me that they are definitely shifting their product line toward simpler, lest costly solutions for the recreational market. Even so, they are pushing some of the non-M/ARPA units as "work boats" capable like their other high-end units...specifically the DRS4DL which is geared toward the NavNet touchscreen MFD use. So I'm wondering if it's also a technical issue with these newer MFDs as well.
> 
> PS - I just saw your note on the DRS4DL being discontinued (we apparently posted at the same time). I don't know anything about that - I'm just going on what is *currently listed on their website* (see thumbnails below) - and the only ones they mention the FTT on are those I mentioned above...


https://www.furunousa.com/en/products/drs4dlplus

click on 'features'

I did find info about the DRS4DL not having ARPA, but it is the only one listed not supporting APRA in a few of their manuals I looked at.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

DotDun said:


> https://www.furunousa.com/en/products/drs4dlplus
> 
> click on 'features'
> 
> I did find info about the DRS4DL not having ARPA, but it is the only one listed not supporting APRA in a few of their manuals I looked at.


Interesting. I think there are a couple of disconnects here. First, your link is to the furunousa.com site and mine above was just to the furuno.com site. And listings, at least of radomes, seems to be very different.

Also, on the page you linked, it's showing traditional, button-driven displays. Then if you hit the View All button, you see the radomes that are listed. But you'll notice there are none of the NavNet touch-screen MFDs.

So, they seem to be mixing hardware on this page, some of which has M/ARPA and some of which doesn't, but the FTT info below this section on the page seems to imply that ALL this gear has it. So this is definitely confusing. I don't know if they are assigning the FTT functionality to only these displays - or to both the display and the radome - or what. But as you say, they don't list FTT on the DRS4DL - but it's part of this hardware list on this page.

Then you have the link for the NavNet radomes at the top of the this page - and the non-FTT DRS4D is *$400 MORE* than the DRS4DL+ which has FTT.

In any case, it looks like I'd have to pay around $6K to get the NavNet touchscreen MFD and the DRS4DL+ to have the FTT. I just don't think it's worth it. I kind of put it in the same category as Sonar. Yeah, it's more information - but not really what I need. At some point as I pointed out to Out above (now that was an interesting sentence) - more information just means having your head buried more deeply in your chartplotter.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Smack rather than taking shots at me and others might want to actually address the concerns I and others have posted demarcating the limitations of the way you would have us run our vessels. BTW I spend just the time necessary looking at a screen. Any screen. Also I have no interest in being a geek. I rather improve my cruising skill set than spend the hours you have on getting geekdom cred. View all the screens as a necessary evil. Just want to turn it on. Check it works and leave. Leave it to others to work out the kinks.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Those of us who have used MARPA (I have never seen an ARPA on a vessel under 70 ft inlength), its pretty obvious you dont need your head buried in a display to use MARPA, thats the point, its automated, the computer does the work for you. If you want to aquire a target, you just glance at the screen and click on it. The machine does the work for you, kind of like how you dont need to row when your using an outboard.

Smack, have you ever done a manual RADAR plot, or even seen one done? Youtube it.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> Smack rather than taking shots at me and others might want to actually address the concerns I and others have posted demarcating the limitations of the way you would have us run our vessels. BTW I spend just the time necessary looking at a screen. Any screen. Also I have no interest in being a geek. I rather improve my cruising skill set than spend the hours you have on getting geekdom cred. View all the screens as a necessary evil. Just want to turn it on. Check it works and leave. Leave it to others to work out the kinks.


Out, where have I told you or anyone else how to run their vessel? I think I've made it very, very clear that I don't care how you or anyone else does that. It's your boat. I'll state it yet again, people should use whatever they want to use on their own boat. I have no problem with that.

It's only when declarative statements are made about whatever solution is being discussed that I might address it - especially if the stated facts are off or the logic doesn't hold. In this case, I was just highlighting the apparent difference in chartplotter usage as it relates to MARPA.

You said this earlier...



outbound said:


> Also people like to look at things differently. Split screens, north up, overlays, stuff on big screens or on the e90s. Find it's much easier for me as captain getting organized and oriented when the RM hard wired system is the go to. Agree you can't have too many screens as long as they don't produce screen hypnosis. *Chart plotters and pads are good but have had too many experiences with people staring at a screen and having no situational awareness. *
> I'm sure one here will insist this is wrong. He fails to appreciate many posters here have access to both and have made their own informed decisions based on their use of both in real world situations.
> Unlike him I deeply care what you, gentlemanly reader, use. I want you to take full advantage of whatever technology you have aboard and be fully conversant with it. I have no desire for you to place me in an unsafe situation due to your need for assistance or rescue nor for you to imperil me by not being aware of my presence.


I actually agree with the above sentiment, AND your statement earlier that "Coastal navigation is very much more difficult than open ocean." - well except for when you're in the middle of a crapton of unlit rigs like we have in the northern Gulf (or icebergs I suppose).

So, I was just comparing these statements with what you'd laid out in this recent post regarding how you use MARPA - which would likely be in these more difficult situations.

So - I wasn't taking a shot at you, I was just highlighting the difference in these statements and how it surprised me a bit. And agree that I can see MARPA - due to the way it seems to work - to be potentially more of a hindrance than a help in the most difficult of situations.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> Those of us who have used MARPA (I have never seen an ARPA on a vessel under 70 ft inlength), its pretty obvious you dont need your head buried in a display to use MARPA, thats the point, its automated, the computer does the work for you. If you want to aquire a target, you just glance at the screen and click on it. The machine does the work for you, kind of like how you dont need to row when your using an outboard.
> 
> Smack, have you ever done a manual RADAR plot, or even seen one done? Youtube it.


No Arc, I've never used it. So you guys (especially you) know *WAY* more about it than I do. All I'm doing is, as a potential consumer, looking at the documentation of how it works - then at the reviews etc of its flaws/drawbacks on the recreational end of the spectrum - and then trying to figure out whether it's really that useful for what I'd have to pay for it. That's all.

I have absolutely no doubt that having a top-of-the-line system would be helpful - but I haven't yet been convinced, again as a consumer, that's it's worth the money.

Let me try to get this down to brass-tacks in relation to this particular discussion about iPad chartplotters. We know that the DRS4W that does work with an iPad does NOT have M/ARPA (FTT) capability. So exactly where would that leave me?

On the DRS4W I will see a closing target, correct? And I will see *relative* closing speed in relation to other stationary targets, yes?

What I *won't *see (to my understanding of this technology) is this (from Furuno)...



> Fast Target Tracking
> 
> Fast Target Tracking (TT) / ARPA on the DRS4DL+ manually or automatically acquires and tracks 10 targets*. After selecting a target, it only takes a few seconds for a speed and course vector to be displayed. With accurate tracking information, estimation of other vessel's course and speed is made simple.
> 
> *heading sensor required


Though in what is shown above I would likely pick those particular targets up with AIS.

I also won't see this (I don't think)...



> Target Analyzer function utilizing Doppler technology
> 
> NXT is the first radar in the world to use the new Furuno exclusive Target Analyzer™ function, where targets that are approaching your vessel automatically change color. Green targets are targets that stay stationary, or are moving away from you, while red targets are moving towards your vessel. Target Analyzer™ works independent of vessel speed, both your own vessels and target vessels, with minor limitations. Echoes dynamically change colors as targets approach, or get farther away from your vessel. Target Analyzer™ can increase safety, as well as improve situational awareness.


Is this accurate based on your experience?

So, as I mentioned above, to make sure I had this capability (at least at a level that would be somewhat trustworthy), I'd have to spend around $6K it seems. Is FTT that valuable? Furuno doesn't seem to think so for the recreational market due to the reported comments. Why?

So, please understand I'm NOT saying this isn't great tech. I'm just wondering about its value for cruising sailboats due to the expense and reported accuracy issues.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Well everyone - here is the benefit of cutting and pasting...I (and we - except for the complainers) now have a new, potentially mind-blowing iPad app to dig into...
*
Nobeltec Marine Navigation*



> ROBUST TECHNOLOGY & DATA
> • 2D/3D chart display engine
> • Complete navigation functions in full 2D/3D
> • Patented PhotoFusion technology
> ...


It looks like it might be solving many of the drawbacks people have mentioned here...

2D/3D chart view...









Satellite imagery overlays...









Radar (with AIS) overlays with the First Watch radar...









...or standalone view...









I'll have to add this FREE new app to the video review. Man, it's heating up in here!!!


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Okay, so to your point about it being worth the money to the consumer. I am with you. It isnt worth it to me, I just dont have that kind of budget. Thats why I am using a very old GPS map 60CSx I inhereted from my dad as my only electronic navigation aid (aside from my android tablet and phone). I think we are probably on the same page when it comes to evaluating whether we need MARPAs. I navigate within the limit of my resources, which sometimes might mean slower passages, taking fewer risks etc. 

However, I do think the technology is worth it for those wo can afford it and have demading passages, especially in larger boats. Its a very good tool in my opinion.

To the question about accuracy of the plot. ARPAs have been in routine use since at least 1997, they are required equipment on some classes of vessels. The accuracy you are describing, when compared to a high quality ARPA like a Bridge Master E, is not very impressive. However, the accuracy when compared to a grease pencil plot on an old CRT display is excellent. Grease pencil plots really only give you a general directional trend, no real accuracy at all. If, you want accuracy with a non tracking RADAR, you get out a plotting board, pencil and triangles and plot range and bearings generally 2 minutes apart, then use trigonometry to calculate course, speed, aspect, cpa and tcpa. We are looking at maybe 8 minutes for a practiced navigator. 5 minutes if you reduce time intervals to 1 minute. If the subject vessel alters course or speed during the calculation, it screws every thing up. Now imagine doing that simultaneously on 10 different targets. MARPAS are continually recalculating that data for you, which frees the navigator up to do what he should be doinng, which is looking out the window.

Removing MARPA functions from RADARs would be essentially taking a step backwards in time 20 years.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> ...then use trigonometry to calculate....


What is this "trigonometry" you speak of? And what does it have to do with skimpy bikinis?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> Well everyone - here is the benefit of cutting and pasting...I now have a new, potentially mind-blowing iPad app to dig into...
> *
> Nobeltec Marine Navigation*
> 
> ...


I mentioned Nobeltec about 10 pages ago, around the time I was being proven wrong for preferring android to iOS.

Excellent software IMO.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> I mentioned Nobeltec about 10 pages ago, around the time I was being proven wrong for preferring android to iOS.
> 
> Excellent software IMO.


Well dude - why the hell didn't you tell me it had freakin' wifi radar overlay!?!?!?! That's a game-changer.

I thought from that comment in that post you'd used the full-blown version on your work boats. I didn't even know this app existed - either for iPad or Android.

Wait - I just looked and this app only appears to be for iPad - not Android. Is that right?


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

I expect it won't be long before I see someone standing watch with VR goggles on.


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## DotDun (Dec 23, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Interesting. I think there are a couple of disconnects here. First, your link is to the furunousa.com site and mine above was just to the furuno.com site. And listings, at least of radomes, seems to be very different.
> 
> Also, on the page you linked, it's showing traditional, button-driven displays. Then if you hit the View All button, you see the radomes that are listed. But you'll notice there are none of the NavNet touch-screen MFDs.
> 
> ...


All of the currently selling Furuno Radomes, as listed on the FurunoUSA website, have ARPA, the 19" and both 24". The DRS4D has ARPA, that is the one I've owned for 10 years, hence I can attest to it's capabilities.

As far as ARPA being 'less than useful' data, when in low visibility situations if not looking at radar/AIS, etc., where are you looking? If you can't see with human eyeballs, do you assume all is clear? :ship-captain:

I digress...the wi-fi dome does not support ARPA...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

DotDun said:


> All of the currently selling Furuno Radomes, as listed on the FurunoUSA website, have ARPA, the 19" and both 24". The DRS4D has ARPA, that is the one I've owned for 10 years, hence I can attest to it's capabilities.
> 
> As far as ARPA being 'less than useful' data, when in low visibility situations if not looking at radar/AIS, etc., where are you looking? If you can't see with human eyeballs, do you assume all is clear? :ship-captain:
> 
> I digress...the wi-fi dome does not support ARPA...


Can you show me where you're getting this info on the NEW radomes? I know the DRS4D had ARPA in the past (as did the 2D) like you say - but I don't see it (M/ARPA or FTT) mentioned either on the website or even in the manual for this current version of that radome on their furuno.com website (LINKY HERE) - or their furunousa.com website (LINKY HERE).

For example, I did searches for ARPA, Fast Target Tracking, and Target Analyzer in the User Manual for that unit (LINKY HERE) - and none of those terms turned up.

What I'm thinking, as mentioned above, is that this capability is tied to the display device more than just the radome - which might be the disconnect here. In other words, maybe the DRS4D can provide ARPA data - but you have to have the right MFD to make use of it.

Again, I don't know. I'm just going by what I'm seeing with these product listings. They are confusing...which is not a good thing it you're wanting to appeal to average boating consumers.

As for your question of what I look at in low-vis situations, it's definitely radar and AIS. I can see targets closing via radar and if there is no AIS signature on the chart, I see that it's something I definitely need to watch for - especially if it has some speed on it. What's missing in this equation right now for me is the estimated speed and track of that object that M/ARPA provides. Handy yes - but not worth $6K I don't think...especially if the data is inaccurate.

This NXT series video shows what I'm talking about...






I think I can live without the BirdMode.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Okay - strike 1 on the Nobeltec app. No support that I see for vector charts. The only in-app chart purchases are high-def NOAA rasters at $50/region. They are quilted and clean - but that is a limitation.

Some of the other features, however, are very slick.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Dot - I took a quick look at Furuno's site to see which units have the M/ARPA (or Fast Target Tracking capability as you point out). It seems all their high-end open array units have it - which you'd expect. And the NXT series (DRS6A-NXT @~$4K and DRS4D-NXT @~$2K) both have it. But I'm not seeing it with their other recreational boats offerings - even the DRS4D itself.
> 
> So, it does seem to me that they are definitely shifting their product line toward simpler, lest costly solutions for the recreational market. Even so, they are pushing some of the non-M/ARPA units as "work boats" capable like their other high-end units...specifically the DRS4DL which is geared toward the NavNet touchscreen MFD use. So I'm wondering if it's also a technical issue with these newer MFDs as well.
> 
> PS - I just saw your note on the DRS4DL being discontinued (we apparently posted at the same time). I don't know anything about that - I'm just going on what is *currently listed on their website* (see thumbnails below) - and the only ones they mention the FTT on are those I mentioned above...


I'm not up to date on the most current Furuno radar mishmash, but here is what I know as of a couple of months ago:

In the recent past (the NavNet3D series), Furuno's CP's had power supplies built in to run their radars. When Furuno switched to the current Touch series of CP's, they moved the radar power supply externally, and had the gall to charge $300 for an external supply just to run the radar (Furuno is bad about things like this, but everyone else probably is too).

IMO, to answer the outcry about this whole extra power supply for running a radar, Furuno came out with equivalent radar models that did not require this extra power supply, and could plug directly into the Touch CP's.

The tradeoff was that these units did not have ARPA any longer. There may be other tradeoffs also of which I'm not aware. However, I doubt ARPA requires that much more power, so I also think it was a marketing decision to hit a price point. I agree that very few people use (M)ARPA - I don't think I have met anyone out cruising who does - at least no one has mentioned it the few times radar was discussed (not that big of a topic on a beach).

But, Furuno still continues to sell their ARPA units, and these units are still the top performing ones. Furuno recently introduced a solid state unit like Navico's, but also with doppler ability. This unit has ARPA on it, so they definitely haven't dropped ARPA in new products. Actually, it is the only genuinely new Furuno radar product that I'm aware of since the wireless product. The others are just the same units as already offered with deprecated functionality.

I spent over 3 months using this new doppler unit continually, and quite frankly it sucked. I was so excited about it too until I used it. The doppler and tracking functionality is interesting in close situations, but I found the overall performance of it to be the same as my previous experience with Navico's solid state radars - they don't hold a candle to a good pulse unit. They make great docking devices, but suffer greatly in longer range sensitivity, target separation, and weather detection. Once again, this is where I part company with Ben's opinions (he loved it) because we aren't generally using our radars inside marinas and close waters like he tests.

So things could be changing, and I do think manufacturers will go away from (M)ARPA in their bottom end units in order to compete better on pricing because few recreational owners actually use that function. But I don't think it is at that point right now, and I don't think it will go away completely. Might just cost more.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

DotDun said:


> I posted a comparison between Class B AIS and Furuno ARPA on CF. ARPA updates faster that Class B AIS, hence more accurate/fresher target data.


It is always interesting to watch the radar target move away from the AIS target for 30seconds, and then have the AIS target suddenly jump to meet the radar target. Repeat ad infinitum.

It is damn scary when the AIS target is doing 20kts.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Thanks Mark. That explanation makes more sense than anything I've seen thus far.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> A couple of theories (these are theories, my opinion, not fact), the users complaining about accuracy were gamer/tech types who expected video game accuracy, the units were not being used correctly, the units were improperly installed, or maybe my usage style allows for lower performance expectations (in which case the primary factor is me).


In this case, no. The reviewer was someone who is extremely knowledgeable in this area and with almost all electronics, and the users contributing (and complaining) were professional mariners who were having problems getting MARPA to work at all on their units.

And this needs to be made very clear, because I think it keeps getting lost in this discussion, the units having problems with MARPA are only the Navico (Simrad, B&G, Lowrance) solid state products (3G/4G). The problem is so bad that Navico admitted they can't do MARPA and pulled the function for the time being. It isn't a matter of "video game accuracy", it was a matter of any accuracy at all. Anchored ships were suddenly doing 15kts towards you, and smoothly moving ships were going in all directions, often reversing, and swapping targets with other ships.



Arcb said:


> Those of us who have used MARPA (I have never seen an ARPA on a vessel under 70 ft inlength)


Anyone with a recreational Furuno unit has a full commercial ARPA implementation. It is wonderful, and surprising for Furuno to give us something like this without extra cost (above the normal Furuno margin).

Edit: I mean anyone in the recent past. Obviously this discussion is showing that Furuno is now offering units without any ARPA functionality at all.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Well dude - why the hell didn't you tell me it had freakin' wifi radar overlay!?!?!?! That's a game-changer.
> 
> I thought from that comment in that post you'd used the full-blown version on your work boats. I didn't even know this app existed - either for iPad or Android.
> 
> Wait - I just looked and this app only appears to be for iPad - not Android. Is that right?


Furuno bought Nobeltec and Maxsea and rolled it all into their "Time Zero". They do seem to be keeping the brands separate for some reason, but have brought together the functionality. Maybe they are heading for a future direction that just takes time and smaller steps to reach.

So the radar overlay is the same as the Furuno wifi app, the Time Zero app, and the Maxsea app. It only works with Furuno radars.

I would be surprised if the Nobeltec app only took raster charts, since the other apps can use vector.

Mark


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## DotDun (Dec 23, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Can you show me where you're getting this info on the NEW radomes? I know the DRS4D had ARPA in the past (as did the 2D) like you say - but I don't see it (M/ARPA or FTT) mentioned either on the website or even in the manual for this current version of that radome on their furuno.com website (LINKY HERE) - or their furunousa.com website (LINKY HERE).
> 
> For example, I did searches for ARPA, Fast Target Tracking, and Target Analyzer in the User Manual for that unit (LINKY HERE) - and none of those terms turned up.
> 
> ...


Per the TZT2 manual - https://www.furunousa.com/-/media/s...ation_manuals/tztl12f15f_operators_manual.pdf

page 6-26



> 6.25 ARPA Operation
> The ARPA (Automatic Radar Plotting Aid) shows the movement of a maximum of 30 radar targets. The targets can be acquired manually or automatically. All 30 targets can be acquired manually when the ARPA acquisition area is not active. If the ARPA acquisition area is active, that total is equally divided between manual and auto acqui- sition.
> ARPA requires speed and heading data.
> 
> Note: The DRS4DL radar sensor does not have the ARPA function.


I'll make the leap and state that at the time of this manual's release, all other radar sensors compatible with TZT2 do support ARPA. But, YMMV.

A list of the radar sensors compatible with the TZT2:
https://www.furunousa.com/en/products/radars/browse?filter=Discontinued.eq.false&group={F5BAFC9C-5095-4DBE-90B5-7AE4EB27BDB9}&groupName=NavNet%20Radar%20Sensors

I'll continue to use ARPA in low vis situations, you can use whatever you like. :smile


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Smack, what is the brand and model of the radar that interfaces with your software? How does your software determine the difference between course and heading? Does your IPad need to be oriented along the axis of your boat? What is the baud rate of your sensors? A lot of the problems you are describing can be attributed to either a 2kw transmitter or how “crowded” your NMEA 0183 bus is. I experienced similar problems (turns out to be the AIS and not the radar unit in my case). I was able to send a faster AIS baud rate by adding a high-speed bus. If you are experiencing radar “targets” jumping around, check your boat’s heading sensor (within reason, we’re using the 2kw “toy” transmitter after all.) My Raymarine autohelm remote runs off of a WiFi transmitter. Can I use that to send data to an iPad? (Note that these are questions arising from curiosity only and I have no agenda whatso ever)


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

DotDun said:


> Per the TZT2 manual - https://www.furunousa.com/-/media/s...ation_manuals/tztl12f15f_operators_manual.pdf
> 
> page 6-26
> 
> ...


Okay - that makes more sense. The *radomes* on Furuno's websites and manuals are not listing the capability - or only listing it sporadically - or listing it incorrectly marketing/manual materials. It's *the MFDs* that are driving the capability as you can see in your linked doc - with not all radomes compatible with those mfds.

Furuno is just doing a tremendously lousy job explaining these differences across the product line.

Anyway, I fully support you using ARPA wherever and whenever you'd like. You won't get any blowback from me.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> Smack, what is the brand and model of the radar that interfaces with your software? How does your software determine the difference between course and heading? Does your IPad need to be oriented along the axis of your boat? What is the baud rate of your sensors? A lot of the problems you are describing can be attributed to either a 2kw transmitter or how "crowded" your NMEA 0183 bus is. I experienced similar problems (turns out to be the AIS and not the radar unit in my case). I was able to send a faster AIS baud rate by adding a high-speed bus. If you are experiencing radar "targets" jumping around, check your boat's heading sensor (within reason, we're using the 2kw "toy" transmitter after all.) My Raymarine autohelm remote runs off of a WiFi transmitter. Can I use that to send data to an iPad? (Note that these are questions arising from curiosity only and I have no agenda whatso ever)


George - I've not used the radar with my iPad...just the AIS and NMEA instrumentation and AP control. For AIS on the Brookhouse iMux it was 38,400 baud if I recall. I never had an issue of targets jumping - and doing several hundred miles on the ICW, including the Mississippi, I had TONS of them.

For that AIS stuff, I could use either North-up or course-up and it worked fine as an overlay on the chart - orienting the targets as needed.

The radar we had on the boat was an older JRC with dedicated display at the nav table (green screen mounted behind the iPad).










The brand of radar I was going to use with the iPad is the Furuno First Watch DRS4W. It uses the traditional course-up screen - and it does not overlay my iNavX chart - so I was never able to test that.

As I pointed out above, you do get the chart overlay with the Nobeltec app and the First Watch...along with AIS.

But here's the trick - how do you get multiple wifi signals with the iPad (for the iMux with NMEA and AIS, AND the radar, etc.)? Nobeltec seems to have solved this with its AIS module which handles both the NMEA and radar streams simultanously. But I've not see this in action yet. Still looking into the details.

But it's pretty sexy.

Finally, as to your wifi from the AP - I don't know. You'd need to see if it comes up as a wifi source on the iPad. If it does - and if it's pushing NMEA and you can access it - then it should push that data into iNavX/SEAiq/TimeZero. Or, at least, it should be able to receive NMEA transmisions from these apps I would assume. That all the iMux is doing really.

I just don't know off the top of my head. Our system depended on the iMux to do all the NMEA lifting. But it gave you FULL NMEA control (even steering the boat via the AP from the iPad/iPhone/etc) and AIS. It just didn't provide for radar overlay.

PS - I've never put you down as one of the AgendaDudes.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> Furuno bought Nobeltec and Maxsea and rolled it all into their "Time Zero". They do seem to be keeping the brands separate for some reason, but have brought together the functionality. Maybe they are heading for a future direction that just takes time and smaller steps to reach.
> 
> So the radar overlay is the same as the Furuno wifi app, the Time Zero app, and the Maxsea app. It only works with Furuno radars.
> 
> ...


Documentation seems scant. Do you happen to know what hardware muxes with the app? As I mentioned above to George - it looks like they are ganging the AIS/Radar wifi streams via a $60 set of modules in the app...and it appears from their documentation that NMEA comes along with that...but they don't really mention how and what hardware is needed to make that happen.

Still looking into this - but I do like what I see.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Bleemus said:


> I expect it won't be long before I see someone standing watch with VR goggles on.


Lol.....standing watch from behind a computer screen at home with VR goggles

Out as well as Sander and I many others have emphasized that this is and aid to navigation to a lot of us. I dare say the majority of Sailnetters dont want to have to become sailing computer experts. It just doesn't fit into their idea s of sailing.

This thread has morphed and been taken over by Daddy with the numerous technical jibberish many of us are trying to avoid. The simple question was is an I pad good as a backup. Overwhelming we all seem to agree with this point.

For many sailors an I pod is what they can afford and start with. Actually maybe the I phone also. You can substitute Android here. Sailnet posters and watchers ćome from all parts of the sailing community from Hobies to daysailors to weekenders with pocket cruisers, racers, blue water cruisers and world travelers. Most actually have boats they sail regularly .

Most Sailnetters I bet want simple electronics. The group of pocket cruisers etc seem to upgrade and add a MSD for the many reasons stated here. Proof is in the pudding. Look in the marinas. That's a simpłe real life example. I would bet that many of us ( I put myself in that catergory even though like Sander and Out I have plenty of off shore miles) . Last thing I want is some overly complicated electtronics set up I have to walk around with or worry about it's charge or the environment

If you look around the marinas, very few boats have AIS or even radar. We bought our first rádar because we travel offshore and to the LI Sound area where there is fog. Also we started sailing a lot of overnight passages. Our first analog radar was a pain with all the adjustments of filters because we didn't use it much I was not very good at a thing but basics. Our newer RM. is spectacular it can pick out fish trap pickets from 2 miles Away. It interfaces with my MFD as all my electronics does. Like many on here I installed it all myself.

I like Sanders stand alone approach and may reconfigure my set up this year. His reasoning makes sense and should be easy as I have two different separate NMEA backbones already. For safety we have an IPAD . Also bluetooths into the MFD. it's a great backup.

I venture to say we use electronics more than many of our fellow sailors in the marina. We definately are not face planted into our screens. When Over posted I did think he was saying he was either. I took it to mean he didn't wan to have to do all the switching the touch screen device does.

My sailing friend s and I definately don't want to or don't care to be electronic sailors. We don't want to be computer geeks searching the Internet sending each other cut and pastes of the newest geek invention or program. We find it more interesting to talk about sailing. We sail frequently . We enjoy getting away from daily life on the boat. Many of our friend with kids make them turn off their devices so they can enjoy the family on their sailing weekends.

Most of us our just simple sailors , we love our boats and our time on them, and can't wait until we can next get out sailing next. If the MFD or I pod didn't work, wed still go out. That's because we have learned to sail without the. Actually they didn't exist. Being fixated on MFD , I Pads, I Mux, Neonav and electronics is just that. We are fixated on sailing.

To me it's a shame this thread was taken over by one person. There's are however some great nuggets of information to be gleaned from other posters. I apologize if I contributed in any way to the mayhem.

THE ANSWER TO THE OP IS A RESOUNDING .........YES.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

colemj said:


> It is always interesting to watch the radar target move away from the AIS target for 30seconds, and then have the AIS target suddenly jump to meet the radar target. Repeat ad infinitum.
> 
> It is damn scary when the AIS target is doing 20kts.
> 
> Mark


I am not sure why it has to be that way. The software could easily refresh a class B target more frequently with a predicted position based on the last reported COG and SOG. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would at least be better than keeping it in the same place.

I don't have radar to observe the exact phenomenon that you describe, but I have seen many class B targets on OpenCPN and have never noticed the jerky updates you mention. My screen is set to refresh every 5 or 10 seconds, and all the AIS vessels (both class A and B) move together on each refresh. So it sounds like this predictive logic is built into OpenCPN. I'm surprised it's not built into other chartplotters.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

chef2sail said:


> Lol.....standing watch from behind a computer screen at home with VR goggles
> 
> To think I had tens of thousands of miles on dead reckoning then the very entertaining Loran C and the the one fix every six hours of Sat Nav and then the miracle known as GPS.
> 
> Give me a simple radar and GPS and a paper chart and I can go anywhere in the world. Sailnetters I believe know this is sailing and not a video game.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Bleemus said:


> Give me a simple radar and GPS and a paper chart and I can go anywhere in the world.


I would wager that most of us on SN could do that fairly easily. Well I'd probably want more than one paper chart (and also a W&P parallel - and dividers - okay, and a pencil) for that challenge. But you get the idea...

A Bygrave Position-Line Slide Rule on the other hand. Fuggedaboudit. They don't even make batteries for those anymore.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> Proof is in the pudding. Look in the marinas.


This is at least the second time you have made this point. Frankly, it is a bad one. The very last place I would ever look to for good gear or future directions is a marina.

Using your approach, everyone would still be using CQR anchors, for example. Marinas contain the cut and paste boats of the sailing world, to use the posse's favorite expression.

Threads drift and morph, I don't see anything wrong with this thread. Yes, the OP's question was answered, probably in the first couple of posts, but then additional dimensions and directions were brought in. It seems like a few of you would like these forums to consist solely of an OP asking a question, a couple of concise and identical answers given by only a few people deemed "correct", and then the thread closed. No debate or other opinions/facts allowed. Definitely no new dimensions added.

I still don't understand why some of you are on these threads that you profess not to like, or even be interested in.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

TakeFive said:


> I am not sure why it has to be that way. The software could easily refresh a class B target more frequently with a predicted position based on the last reported COG and SOG. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would at least be better than keeping it in the same place.
> 
> I don't have radar to observe the exact phenomenon that you describe, but I have seen many class B targets on OpenCPN and have never noticed the jerky updates you mention. My screen is set to refresh every 5 or 10 seconds, and all the AIS vessels (both class A and B) move together on each refresh. So it sounds like this predictive logic is built into OpenCPN. I'm surprised it's not built into other chartplotters.


Very well could be a chartplotter software-specific thing - or even specific to our particular brand/model. Perhaps other CP's do it differently. I've never noticed if OCPN does prediction because we don't use that as our primary AIS display, so I'm not generally looking at it in real-time.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Bleemus said:


> chef2sail said:
> 
> 
> > Sailnetters I believe know this is sailing and not a video game.
> ...


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Documentation seems scant. Do you happen to know what hardware muxes with the app? As I mentioned above to George - it looks like they are ganging the AIS/Radar wifi streams via a $60 set of modules in the app...and it appears from their documentation that NMEA comes along with that...but they don't really mention how and what hardware is needed to make that happen.
> 
> Still looking into this - but I do like what I see.


I don't know much about it at all. I assumed it was from their chart plotters, which have built in wifi, and the ability to mirror their displays on tablets. I know that Maxsea can connect to the Furuno chart plotters via ethernet and do what this app appears to do - so maybe it is just using wifi instead of ethernet?

Mark


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

colemj said:


> This is at least the second time you have made this point. Frankly, it is a bahd one. The very last place I would ever look to for good gear or future directions is a marina.
> 
> Using your approach, everyone would still be using CQR anchors, for example. Marinas contain the cut and paste boats of the sailing world, to use the posse's favorite expression.
> 
> ...


No Mark it's not a bad
Statement. Fact is most posters on here are not world cruisers but are in fact tied up somewhere. No value judgement , just a fact. In plainEnglish the majority of SN are probably grouped in marinas and moorings. 
As the thread developed we all pretty much agreed on situational sailing determining what type of electronics a captain might purchase. BTW. You would find more New Gen anchors there also . There is nothing wrong with a CQR either.

As far as thread drift. It's not some"posse thing" . Do you even know where the "cut and paste" expression comes from. Thread drift is normal . Certainly I am not saying I am against that. I've learned from others when that happens. There will never be any homogenized answers when you get sailors together. What ii was objecting to was a person dominating the thread with an inordinate number of posts.

I would rather not continue . My points are clear.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Thread drift is OK to some extent. This thread veered off into a learning/teaching lab for basically iPad navigation. This is not a bad thing... it informs sailors who might have one or considering buying one. The same sort of hands on experience with any gear is very useful.

What apparently disturbed several posters was the meme that iPad are far superior to fixed mount char plotters and the latter are heading to become dinosaurs.

Most sailors will agree that in general software is becoming more and more powerful and processors are getting smaller and smaller... and less expensive... likely due to the size of the market for mobile devices... And they will also agree that this seems to create user interface issues... using a touch screen to get at the wealth of information. Mobile devices are not designed for the demanding conditions of the marine environment. That is a fact. To use them at sea marine work-arounds are available.

And of course despite the power of electronics these days... the actual use... type of sailing, region.. and conditions is a factor when considering complex information systems for navigation. Most will admit that the improvement in more data may simply be out of scale with the mission.... simple stand alone marine instruments with a stand alone MFD plotter meets the needs of 99% of sailors... who can add radar and AIS etc to their "screen"... and drive multiple data displays around the boat as needed.

There seems to be no universal right or wrong but a better or worse solution on a case by case basis.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

SanderO said:


> Mobile devices are not designed for the demanding conditions of the marine environment. That is a fact. To use them at sea marine work-arounds are available.


Some are.

My Android Phone is Sonim Technologies Inc. | Rugged Smartphones, LTE Smartphones, Critical Communication Solutions.

I have seen Panasonics Windows based Tough series used in the marine/outdoor environment for a long time.

https://na.panasonic.com/us/computers-tablets-handhelds/tablets/tablets/toughpad-fz-m1

There are other Android and Windows based examples that I know of out there as well.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Arcb I have a old Panasonic cf-31 toughbook we use for SSB email/gribs and satphone weather fax/email . I’ve gotten so use to iPads I’ve never set up any nav on it.
What would you suggest to use? It is WiFi/Bluetooth enabled and has its own gps. I don’t like windows 10 so it’s still running 7pro


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Out, I don't have a specific tablet that I recommend, I am not really a techy guy, so my knowledge is limited to the devices I have personally used. I would not like to recommend something specific in case there is a better product at a better price out there. 

However, my Sonim Cell phone I would recommend. Its bullet proof. Its a bit chunky for some peoples tastes but it sure is tough. I would say one would have to try it before buying one. Its probably double the thickness of an iDevice and not at all stylish.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Indeed the Samsung 7 Active I have is tough and waterproof but I guess not specifically designed for the demands of the marine environment. Clearly more suitable that most mobile devices. And there are devices made toughened for field work in industry. I don't believe the Apple devices are "rugged" and waterproof. My LG tablet isn't.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> What ii was objecting to was a person dominating the thread with an inordinate number of posts.
> 
> I would rather not continue . My points are clear.


Where on Sailnet does it state, and who makes the determination, who can post and how many posts they are allowed on a thread? Even how relevant the posts have to be? I know what you and certain others think the answer should be, but I can't find anything in the official site stuff.

It seems that this complaint comes up often by you and certain others only in relation to a single member here, while I can find threads predominantly dominated by other members where your complaint is not made. Threads smackdaddy didn't even contribute to.

And get some perspective. smackdaddy actually hardly contributes to any threads at all. Yes, he contributes a lot to threads he is interested in, but his interests seem to be pretty narrow. So narrow that the odds of hitting a thread containing his input are very low. This is easy to prove to yourself - just look at all the threads and compare their numbers to the ones he contributes in. I bet you will find yourself dominating more threads than he.

If a thread has run its course for one, or digressed into a tangent of no interest to one, or one doesn't like a poster's contributions, one just stops visiting the thread. Geez, I don't even open up the majority of the threads on Sailnet, and quickly stop visiting some for these reasons. I've definitely sometimes ignored whole postings and even posters on threads I am interested in - just skipping past what I think is "blah blah blah" and moving on to what I think is good meat.

Never seemed too onerous to me - I hardly even know I'm doing it, in fact.

Of course, I'm just a video game armchair pretend sailor, and not a hardened marina real one, so I know how to use all the fancy computer devices like not clicking and scrolling past.

Mark


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Mark your post was fine until the last snarky paragraph... not needed.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SanderO said:


> Mark your post was fine until the last snarky paragraph... not needed.


Sander, why don't you use that admonishment with those who *actually started* that snark. Not those who are simply responding to it.

You're definitely missing the Mark as it were.


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## AJC506 (Nov 3, 2016)

could we drop the bickering please? all sides? TIA.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> I don't know much about it at all. I assumed it was from their chart plotters, which have built in wifi, and the ability to mirror their displays on tablets. I know that Maxsea can connect to the Furuno chart plotters via ethernet and do what this app appears to do - so maybe it is just using wifi instead of ethernet?
> 
> Mark


I'll check it out a bit more.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Daddy, I constantly call for comity from EVERYONE.... 

Can posters take their disputes private or take up complaints with mods... Let's discuss the

MERITS / ISSUES of/with mobile device navigation.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

It seems that this thread has been hijacked by 2 people, who account for 16 of the previous 27 posts and who engage in personal invective. This us vs. them (i.e., "posse") stuff is a little silly, IMHO.

Unfortunately the drift of this thread seems to be focused on software issues that have yet to be fully proven via legitimate beta testing in a touch screen environment that can be wet and moving. I don't really care who uses tablets as primary chart plotters and those who do should not care what I do, either. We can provide our perspective and you can take it or leave it, but without the innuendo and insults, please. 

I have multiple portable devices as backup and I frequently exercise the app to retain familiarity with their quirks--just like with my primary electronics. That said, I have had to reboot my iPad when Bluechart hangs up, which is an order of magnitude more frequently than I've had issues with my integrated RM chartplotter. I have only had to reboot (factory reset) my RM chartplotter once in the 8 years I've had this model, whereas I've had to restart my iPad 3 times this week, while planning cruises using Bluechart. BTW, I did the factory reset for my RM chartplotter while on a cruise, having conferred with RM customer service over a cell phone. Problem solved. I don't know where I could get such support for an iPad that was networked with a bunch of cats and dogs.

Adding more functionality to the iPad chartplotter process, with multiple vendors' products having to be integrated, frankly, is a little scary for something you may need to work in a crisis.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Fallard - I'm curious, which model of iPad do you have? And do you think the problem is related to BlueChart - or the hardware?

As I've said before, my experience is not at all the same as yours. Our iPad2 with iNavX that we kept at the helm 24/7 while underway NEVER hung-up, froze, needed re-booting, etc. in 1,000 miles of continuous use in all kinds of conditions from 100 degree heat to offshore storms with drenching rain to heavy seas - you name it (nor did any of our i-device backups onboard).

I'm wondering if BlueChart is/was just buggy when you were using it (or maybe you had too many apps open, too little space, whatever). If the iPad itself is well-managed and properly protected from the elements, it's incredibly reliable and durable. I've never used BlueChart. I'm not a fan. But I know lots of people do use it. So maybe others can speak to potentially bugginess that matches your issue.

PS - the above is another reason I recommend the LifeProof Nuud case. Though I've never "benchtested" it (and don't really want or care to since I've already extensively field-tested it) a fully enclosed case like the LifeEdge I've shown in my videos can trap much more heat due to the screen cover. Having the glass exposed like with the Nuud case, allows better heat transfer and still protects the iPad itself just as well.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I am going to backwards a bit to something I read a few pages back that I immediately questioned (quietly), but didn't have adequate information on hand to contradict. I read somewhere a few pages back a statement something roughly to the effect of: anyone with a recreational Furuno unit has a full commercial ARPA implementation.

So I read through Furunos marketing material to see if I could verify anything that way. I couldn't find Furuno making such a claim any where.

My next step was to go directly to the IMO performance standards for (commercial) ARPA and just looked for something that was easily verified against specifics given for various Furuno units. I figured this method would get us close to somewhere on the subject. One specification listed for the smallest class of ARPA (500 gross tons and less) is minimum screen dimensions of 195 mm by 195 mm (7.8" by 7.8").  This is an 11" display screen on a square screen, larger on a rectangular screen.

On Furuno.com, an 8.4' Recreational RADAR display screen is listed 8.4" COLOR LCD RADAR MODEL1815 | Marine Radar | Products | FURUNO, as is a 9" FURUNO NavNet TZtouch, then we have the Furuno First Watch which displays on an iPad or even an iPhone, most of which don't meet the minimum dimension standards for even the smallest permitted ARPA display.

I didn't dig deeper into performance standards because the very first metric I investigated showed inconsistencies with the statement. I normally wouldn't care about paper specifications and performance standards, but if somebody is going to correct me on something, I might at least look into the statement and see what I can see.

It appears to me that, although Furuno certainly does make ARPA units in the higher price range, not all of their RADAR units appear to result in full commercial ARPA implementation. Especially the tablet versions. Unless maybe somebody has access to information I haven't been able to dig up, which is possible, that's why I don't like to state facts, just opinions.

http://www.imo.org/en/KnowledgeCent...ety-Committee-(MSC)/Documents/MSC.192(79).pdf


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

fallard said:


> I don't know where I could get such support for an iPad that was networked with a bunch of cats and dogs.
> 
> Adding more functionality to the iPad chartplotter process, with multiple vendors' products having to be integrated, frankly, is a little scary for something you may need to work in a crisis.


This point has come up often here - chef2sail has made it a couple of times, and probably others.

I don't understand where it is coming from. Here is how our tablets/phones are networked to our instruments on our boat:
1. turn on tablet/phone
2. connect to wifi network
3. there is no #3.

That's it. The whole shebang. It is the same way we connect our computers to our instruments.

Otherwise, the entire electronics suite and network is the exact same one the fixed instruments and chartplotter is connected to. There is no dog's breakfast of mish-mashed stuff strung together using high-priest sanskrit rituals or anything. There is no mulit-vendor integration necessary - at least no more than already exists on the boat from personal choices in selecting commercial gear.

So where are those who say differently getting their experiences with this? And what exactly are those experiences that differ so much from ours?

And finally, how does doing so on a tablet differ from doing so on a computer running OCPN, Maxsea, Nobeltec, or the like? Maybe that question should be "why" instead of "how"?

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

fallard said:


> This us vs. them (i.e., "posse") stuff is a little silly, IMHO.


I agree, and it would be nice if those of you doing so would stop.

Mark


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I'm staying out of the religious battles.

But as a heavy user of tablet-based chartplotters as my primary (inshore) navigation method, I need to ask about one acknowledged weakness: capacitive touchscreen. AFAIK, this is the touchscreen technology used on all Android, iOS, and Windows tablets. No amount of hardening or waterproofing changes that fact. And the fact is, when doused by rainwater or bluewater, the touchscreen ceases to function until you've completely wiped it off and dried it. This might be impossible if everything in your cockpit is continually doused with water, leaving you without a functioning plotter when you may most need it. (A very rare problem for inshore sailing, and I keep backups for the rare time that this might happen.)

This may be why many sailors don't want a touch-screen chartplotter (preferring pushbutton operation), but I will note that Garmin uses resistive touchscreens in its touchscreen chartplotters and its handheld GPSs. That technology is much slower to respond (which is why it's no longer used in consumer tablets), but completely resistant to water on the screen.

Have any of you seen a consumer tablet with a resistive screen? What does a Toughpad have?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> I am going to backwards a bit to something I read a few pages back that I immediately questioned (quietly), but didn't have adequate information on hand to contradict. I read somewhere a few pages back a statement something roughly to the effect of: anyone with a recreational Furuno unit has a full commercial ARPA implementation.
> 
> So I read through Furunos marketing material to see if I could verify anything that way. I couldn't find Furuno making such a claim any where.
> 
> ...


The wireless radar doesn't have ARPA, and some of the newest offerings do not either. This was discussed in this thread, and I edited my post shortly after posting it to make this point clearer.

ARPA is performed in the radar radome/array itself, not in the display (most people don't realize that). In this, Furuno's ARPA offerings do meet commercial standards - they meet 33CFR164.38 "Performance Standards For ARPA". It is up to the individual purchasers to make sure that their display size meets whatever legal requirements are necessary for displaying ARPA information. Surely, Furuno should not be held accountable for that - particularly given the wide class of commercial ships that use the same radomes/arrays. Likewise, they should not be accountable for the owner to chose the proper heading unit required, proper mounting, etc.

ARPA differs from (Mini)ARPA in several key points, including automatic acquisition, number of targets tracked, tracking 5 of 10 consecutive scans, history tracks, and several other things like sensitivity, accuracy, etc. In this, Furuno's ARPA is true ARPA, and I'm not aware of any other manufacturer offering it in recreational units. Commercial ships are using the same Furuno ARPA radomes and arrays as available to recreational ships - although they generally have a larger practical size and power range of them to chose from.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

TakeFive said:


> I'm staying out of the religious battles.
> 
> But as a heavy user of tablet-based chartplotters as my primary (inshore) navigation method, I need to ask about one acknowledged weakness: capacitive touchscreen. AFAIK, this is the touchscreen technology used on all Android, iOS, and Windows tablets. No amount of hardening or waterproofing changes that fact. And the fact is, when doused by rainwater or bluewater, the touchscreen ceases to function until you've completely wiped it off and dried it. This might be impossible if everything in your cockpit is continually doused with water, leaving you without a functioning plotter when you may most need it. (A very rare problem for inshore sailing, and I keep backups for the rare time that this might happen.)
> 
> ...


My older Toughpad was definitely resistive, and slower response like you say. However, the computer and software itself was slower, so it all seemed to match together.

I don't know what type of display the current chartplotters use. I have always had an aversion to touch display CP's, but I used one this summer for 3 months continuously and it didn't have any of the problems I was associating with it. Of course, it was never dunked in seawater or rain. It was slower than a tablet, but I can't separate out the software response from the touch response - the CP was doing way more stuff simultaneously than my tablet (3D rendering of charts, displaying two radars, AIS, navigation output, NMEA server, wifi server, and several other things).

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

colemj said:


> The wireless radar doesn't have ARPA, and some of the newest offerings do not either. This was discussed in this thread, and I edited my post shortly after posting it to make this point clearer.
> 
> ARPA is performed in the radar radome/array itself, not in the display (most people don't realize that). In this, Furuno's ARPA offerings do meet commercial standards - they meet 33CFR164.38 "Performance Standards For ARPA". It is up to the individual purchasers to make sure that their display size meets whatever legal requirements are necessary for displaying ARPA information. Surely, Furuno should not be held accountable for that - particularly given the wide class of commercial ships that use the same radomes/arrays. Likewise, they should not be accountable for the owner to chose the proper heading unit required, proper mounting, etc.
> 
> ...


My bad for not staying up to date on your back edit corrections of your statements. I don't know or care what most people know about what makes an ARPA an ARPA, but I know what I know and a scanner alone doesn't make an ARPA. Its a complete system that meets performance standards including minimum display size so that some marketing or tech guy doesn't try passing off a nice scanner with an 8.4" display as a full commercial ARPA implementation. CFR codes are written based on global IMO standard that defined ARPA back in 1997 and was adopted in 2004.

This is exactly why terms like MARPA have been adopted, its not ARPA, but it has features in common with an ARPA, so they call it a MARPA.

Any way, I am glad that you acknowledge that not all Furuno systems result in full commercial ARPA implementation.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> My bad for not staying up to date on your back edit corrections of your statements. I don't know or care what most people know about what makes an ARPA an ARPA, but I know what I know and a scanner alone doesn't make an ARPA. Its a complete system that meets performance standards including minimum display size so that some marketing or tech guy doesn't try passing off a nice scanner with an 8.4" display as a full commercial ARPA implementation. CFR codes are written based on global IMO standard that defined ARPA back in 1997 and was adopted in 2004.
> 
> This is exactly why terms like MARPA have been adopted, its not ARPA, but it has features in common with an ARPA, so they call it a MARPA.
> 
> Any way, I am glad that you acknowledge that not all Furuno systems result in full commercial ARPA implementation.


Why don't you drop the attitude? I edited that post within 50 minutes of posting it. Unless you read it during those 50 minutes between, and then decided to post about it 24 hours later (your own posts said this wasn't the case), you are being disingenuous with your snark.

I happily acknowledge that not all Furuno radars have ARPA. Those that don't implement ARPA can't meet commercial ARPA requirements, of course, but those that do have ARPA, do meet them. I didn't mean to say that radars without ARPA can do ARPA - and I made that very clear within 50 minutes.

Not all of us have the exquisite written communication abilities you do. Some of us need 50 minutes for a second chance at clarity.

Besides, I'm on your ignore list, so not sure how you saw that post.

ARPA is performed in the radome/array. Furuno's implementation meets ARPA requirements. It is not Furuno's responsibility to make sure every commercial ship meets their specific requirements. The ARPA functionality itself - as was being discussed in this thread - is there. In the same manner, heading, GPS, and other sensors that meet commercial requirements probably have display requirements for their use - but that doesn't make them not commercial sensors.

If you care to split words and shade definitions, you are guilty of the exact thing you accused me of doing.

If you want to get hung up on whether a certain 32' sailboat with an ARPA unit has a display screen size appropriate for regulations of a 500 ton ship, feel free. But it does have full ARPA commercial performance specs.

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I learned very quickly the ignore feature is useless, because I still see everything off line. 

You are not pleased with my perceived "snark". You told me 4 times in one post that I was "wrong". Get your facts straight if you're going to correct somebody. In fact, try to get them straight before correcting somebody.

No, I still haven't gone back and read your corrected post.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> ARPA is performed in the radar radome/array itself, not in the display (most people don't realize that). In this, Furuno's ARPA offerings do meet commercial standards - they meet 33CFR164.38 "Performance Standards For ARPA".
> 
> .....
> 
> ...


Mark, I didn't know for sure about where ARPA functionality was tied (radome or display) - thanks for clearing that up.

As I mentioned above in my conversation with dot - Furuno does a lousy job of explaining this in their marketing/technical documentation. So I agree with Arc on that point. But - jeez, Arc, the beastmode thing should be dialed back a bit...

Look, I'm bummed for Mark (colemj) that he has now seemingly been lumped in with me in this continual attack-mode by some. He is one of the most knowledgeable, helpful, experienced guys I've come across in any forum...ESPECIALLY IN THIS PARTICULAR ARENA.

Why don't you guys keep your fire trained on me. I would like to keep learning from Mark if you don't mind. And I think others would too.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Fallard - I'm curious, which model of iPad do you have? And do you think the problem is related to BlueChart - or the hardware?
> 
> As I've said before, my experience is not at all the same as yours. Our iPad2 with iNavX that we kept at the helm 24/7 while underway NEVER hung-up, froze, needed re-booting, etc. in 1,000 miles of continuous use in all kinds of conditions from 100 degree heat to offshore storms with drenching rain to heavy seas - you name it (nor did any of our i-device backups onboard).
> 
> ...


FWIW, I've been using BlueChart on my older ME9997/LL iPad running on iOS 11.3. The lock up problem related to Active Captain (current update) data not opening. I forced a reboot of BlueChart by restarting the iPad, which seemed to restore the availability of AC data within the ap. This is a relatively new occurence--since Garmin acquired AC and it seems the problem with lockup on data is only in BlueChart, so I suspect it is a bug in Bluechart--perhaps associated with the newer AC data. I am suspicious because I was recently forced to download the entire AC data--not just an update. I smell a Garmin gremlin, but who knows?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Heh-heh. Don't get me started on AC!


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

colemj said:


> This point has come up often here - chef2sail has made it a couple of times, and probably others.
> 
> I don't understand where it is coming from. Here is how our tablets/phones are networked to our instruments on our boat:
> 1. turn on tablet/phone
> ...


Before I retired, in addition to hardware issues in the real world, I had to deal with some serious software bugs when separately-developed software modules were integrated, so I speak from MY experience when raising doubts about an agglomeration of software modules that has not been put through the ringer under real-world conditions. Software engineers know about beta testing and there are lots of anecdotes about vendors leaving the beta testing to early adopters of their new stuff. I use "beta testing" in the broadest sense to include human interfaces as well as software functionality.

It's all about unintended consequences and the more complex the system, the more you need to ring things out.

I dealt with the untried and questionable in complex systems during my working years, but now that I'm retired, I'll stick with the tried and true. And I will trust my instincts on what's tried and true!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, including me. I have been quite comfortable with the 3 generations of RM integrated chart plotters I've had. In 27 years I only had one freeze-up and that issue was fixed while I was on the water via a short cell phone consultation with RM customer service. On another occasion, I needed to replace a 20 yr old RM GPS sensor that had died. The new RM GPS sensor would have required a ridiculously expensive Seatalk adapter to work with my updated chartplotter, but RM customer service pointed my to a third party GPS vendor and told me how to wire it up through an NMEA connection that existing in the chartplotter power cable. No adapter needed and the GPS sensor was significantly cheaper than the RM GPS sensor. I really like that kind of single point customer support along with an incredibly reliable set of RM gear I've had over the past 27 and 22 years, respectively, on 2 boats, which I still own.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> You told me 4 times in one post that I was "wrong". Get your facts straight if you're going to correct somebody. In fact, try to get them straight before correcting somebody.


Those facts were straight and they still stand. You have shaded a definition and twisted a meaning to make yourself believe you are correct. Fine with me - we all apparently seem to be entitled to our own facts here. Again, my correction to my post was only to make clear that radar units without ARPA capability cannot perform ARPA. While that statement seemingly would not need clarifying in a normal world, here in Sailnet world some of us must be extra vigilant in our words.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Look, I'm bummed for Mark (colemj) that he has now seemingly been lumped in with me in this continual attack-mode by some. He is one of the most knowledgeable, helpful, experienced guys I've come across in any forum...ESPECIALLY IN THIS PARTICULAR ARENA.
> 
> Why don't you guys keep your fire trained on me. I would like to keep learning from Mark if you don't mind. And I think others would too.


Don't worry about me. I was attacked by a 7' bull shark yesterday and won the battle - riding it like a bronco trying to keep my head out of its mouth. Got the 15lb grouper back to the dinghy in spite of it. Arcb and certain others are pitifully weak in comparison - I can handle myself with them.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

fallard said:


> Before I retired, in addition to hardware issues in the real world, I had to deal with some serious software bugs when separately-developed software modules were integrated, so I speak from MY experience when raising doubts about an agglomeration of software modules that has not been put through the ringer under real-world conditions. Software engineers know about beta testing and there are lots of anecdotes about vendors leaving the beta testing to early adopters of their new stuff. I use "beta testing" in the broadest sense to include human interfaces as well as software functionality.
> 
> It's all about unintended consequences and the more complex the system, the more you need to ring things out.
> 
> ...


Your experiences are good caution in theory, but I'm not sure what software modules and what integration you are eluding to in this context. SD was talking about a single app iNavx, and I was talking about SEAiq, also a single app. There aren't any additional modules or integration outside the ones hardwired in the boat and bought from commercial vendors.

On the other hand, we got the first shipment of B&G's Tritons, and an early Vesper AIS model, and a Maretron GPS transducer where I think I was both beta tester and QC guy in solving what should have been obviously found bugs. Many bugs.

So if your caution is extended to tablet apps, it is also relevant to almost every piece of hard-wired "commercial" instrumentation going nowadays. You may have had good luck with your Raymarine stuff, but I remember wholesale howling about bugs during the first generation of their Lighthouse products.

As to single point of support, the majority of people I meet installing new instrumentation are not choosing whole carpeting of a single brand anymore. NMEA2000, and to some extent open standards, are making it very easy to buy best in breed and not sole manufacturer. In these cases, you get support from several places as needed.

Carrying this thought to computers and tablets, Dave and others at OCPN are very responsive, and I have had immediate response from the developers of SEAiq.

Mark


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

colemj said:


> Your experiences are good caution in theory, but I'm not sure what software modules and what integration you are eluding to in this context...


As an outsider to this discussion, it was still pretty obvious to me (from reading his prior couple of posts) that fallard was referring to the integration of ActiveCaptain crowdsourced data into the Bluecharts Mobile app, and the way that newly acquired data structures may be breaking the app, perhaps due to a different collection method that Garmin is using since their takeover of AC.

I'm not a computer scientist at all, but I've worked with enough of these things to easily anticipate answers to the proverbial question, "What could possibly go wrong?"


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

TakeFive said:


> As an outsider to this discussion, it was still pretty obvious to me (from reading his prior couple of posts) that fallard was referring to the integration of ActiveCaptain crowdsourced data into the Bluecharts Mobile app, and the way that newly acquired data structures may be breaking the app, perhaps due to a different collection method that Garmin is using since their takeover of AC.
> 
> I'm not a computer scientist at all, but I've worked with enough of these things to easily anticipate answers to the proverbial question, "What could possibly go wrong?"


Ah, right! I got confused with tablet apps and radar and everything else. Actually, I somehow skipped the AC post when scrolling. Thanks!

For that discussion, the Garmin Bluechart app is no longer supported, so those of us with it are just riding on borrowed time and will have to just take what happens. Or pay a whopping amount for a new sucky app. It sucks. On the other hand, it was a poor nav app anyway, but had a great chart display and Explorer chart support. Don't ask me my opinion about AC and Garmin now...

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

colemj said:


> Those facts were straight and they still stand. You have shaded a definition and twisted a meaning to make yourself believe you are correct. Fine with me - we all apparently seem to be entitled to our own facts here. Again, my correction to my post was only to make clear that radar units without ARPA capability cannot perform ARPA. While that statement seemingly would not need clarifying in a normal world, here in Sailnet world some of us must be extra vigilant in our words.
> 
> Mark


So you continue to deny that an ARPA is a complete system rather any single component of the system? I linked the IMO performance standards for folks to review. Many factors went into consideration for those standards including medical standards for sea farers, which include vision standards, hence the minimum screen sizes. Which for small commercial vessels 0-500 tons is 195 mm x 195 mm.

These standards were not dreamed up by a marketing department. They were the result of careful study after the loss of many lives attributed to inadequate or improper use of navigational aids or practices. It was you who said full commercial implementation, and that just isnt what it is. This isnt beast mode as some suggest, there are standards that define what a complete ARPA system is. I would not even care if you had not felt the need to correct me, but those little iPad RADAR things are not full implementation of commercial ARPA.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Wait, I just reread everything and am now confused. Fallard responded directly to my post about connecting a tablet to a NMEA network and getting all of the data on it. This had nothing to do with Garmin or AC - they don't even take NMEA data.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

fallard said:


> Before I retired, in addition to hardware issues in the real world, I had to deal with some serious software bugs when separately-developed software modules were integrated, so I speak from MY experience when raising doubts about an agglomeration of software modules that has not been put through the ringer under real-world conditions. Software engineers know about beta testing and there are lots of anecdotes about vendors leaving the beta testing to early adopters of their new stuff. I use "beta testing" in the broadest sense to include human interfaces as well as software functionality.
> 
> It's all about unintended consequences and the more complex the system, the more you need to ring things out.


I'm in the same relative line of work still. And I completely agree with this.

I also am pleased to assure you and the readers about the robustness and lack of buginess in the iPad nav system that I've laid out previously - and tested myself extensively, finding it incredibly stable.

So, I just think it's always important to understand that it's *not the platform* (iPad/apps or MFDs/proprietary software) that's in question here. It's the specific bundle of technology being used - like ActiveCaptain being the bug behind your issues (and not causing me any problems because I stay away from it like the plague) - or many times it's even the user...as I'm sure you'll attest being in from the tech side of life.

That was Mark's point above regarding the simplicity of what we are talking about here on the iPad side, I believe - and he's right. We are talking about a very, very simple combination of hardware and software that is very likely simpler than a proprietary solution. It is amazing to me how far sailors typically will go to find "non-WestMarine" solutions to just about everything, but will insist on a purely WestMarine solution in this arena.

The funny thing is, as you can see with these products - the West Marine solutions are looking more and more like the iPad solutions.

So, as always, pick what you want. But be clear that issues of stability are solvable on the iPad side just as they are on the WestMarine side. The issues surrounding the Navico 4G (Simrad, B&G, Lowrance) radar mentioned above are perfect examples of that. And you can easily kick Garmin/AC to the curb.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> So you continue to deny that an ARPA is a complete system rather any single component of the system? I linked the IMO performance standards for folks to review. Many factors went into consideration for those standards including medical standards for sea farers, which include vision standards, hence the minimum screen sizes. Which for small commercial vessels 0-500 tons is 195 mm x 195 mm.
> 
> These standards were not dreamed up by a marketing department. They were the result of careful study after the loss of many lives attributed to inadequate or improper use of navigational aids or practices. It was you who said full commercial implementation, and that just isnt what it is. This isnt beast mode as some suggest, there are standards that define what a complete ARPA system is. I would not even care if you had not felt the need to correct me, but those little iPad RADAR things are not full implementation of commercial ARPA.


Sheesh. Those little ipad radar things aren't full implementation of commercial ARPA because they don't have an ARPA feature at all. I never claimed they were. Did you read any of the above?

I will let my responses stand because they are vetted and true. Shade away with your definitions and twist meanings as you will. If you really think someone doesn't have true ARPA functionality simply because their display is 1/2" too small, I'm fine with it. If you haven't seen a recreational boat under 70' with true ARPA capability (even by your stringent definition), then you don't get out much - I was on three of them this week alone. All under 50'. And there are only 5 boats around us.

Better yet, please put me back on ignore. If you can't in theory, please do so in practice - I don't want to effect your health. Or your facts.

Mark


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Congratulations, you've officially broken the internet  :


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> So you continue to deny that an ARPA is a complete system rather any single component of the system? I linked the IMO performance standards for folks to review. Many factors went into consideration for those standards including medical standards for sea farers, which include vision standards, hence the minimum screen sizes. Which for small commercial vessels 0-500 tons is 195 mm x 195 mm.
> 
> These standards were not dreamed up by a marketing department. They were the result of careful study after the loss of many lives attributed to inadequate or improper use of navigational aids or practices. It was you who said full commercial implementation, and that just isnt what it is. This isnt beast mode as some suggest, there are standards that define what a complete ARPA system is. I would not even care if you had not felt the need to correct me, but those little iPad RADAR things are not full implementation of commercial ARPA.


Heh-heh, this sounds very reminiscent of a previous conversation about a different body of standards I referenced in discussions about the capability of various boats in certain colors of water. That ended well.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

TakeFive said:


> Congratulations, you've officially broken the internet  :


I would like to share in the humor, but I don't get it 

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> I would like to share in the humor, but I don't get it
> 
> Mark


Look at the post number sequence. And tell us more about this shark...


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## AJC506 (Nov 3, 2016)

colemj said:


> TakeFive said:
> 
> 
> > Congratulations, you've officially broken the internet
> ...


Post 396 of 395


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I'm hoping to knock out some of this GeekZone video this weekend. It'll be all kinds of awesome - drenching this iPad in water, running multiple apps simultaneously, losing my lederhosen overboard, playing CandyCrush while navigating the narrow inlet to my poolyard, you name it...


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## DotDun (Dec 23, 2003)

Arcb said:


> So you continue to deny that an ARPA is a complete system rather any single component of the system? I linked the IMO performance standards for folks to review. Many factors went into consideration for those standards including medical standards for sea farers, which include vision standards, hence the minimum screen sizes. Which for small commercial vessels 0-500 tons is 195 mm x 195 mm.
> 
> These standards were not dreamed up by a marketing department. They were the result of careful study after the loss of many lives attributed to inadequate or improper use of navigational aids or practices. It was you who said full commercial implementation, and that just isnt what it is. This isnt beast mode as some suggest, there are standards that define what a complete ARPA system is. I would not even care if you had not felt the need to correct me, but those little iPad RADAR things are not full implementation of commercial ARPA.


The IMO standard you reference is for commercial vessels, not recreational vessels. The standard is about radar installations on commercial vessels, it isn't about what can/can't be called "ARPA". It's about when installing ARPA on a commercial vessel, what the components must look like.

You are trying to state that Furuno can't call it ARPA because some of the supporting screens sizes don't meet the commercial vessel standard? That's ridiculous!

FWIW, Raymarine's newly released radome, the "Quantum 2 Doppler
Marine Radar" lists as a feature....



> Fully automatic ARPA target tracking, along with manual MARPA mode


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

DotDun said:


> The IMO standard you reference is for commercial vessels, not recreational vessels. The standard is about radar installations on commercial vessels, it isn't about what can/can't be called "ARPA". It's about when installing ARPA on a commercial vessel, what the components must look like.
> 
> You are trying to state that Furuno can't call it ARPA because some of the supporting screens sizes don't meet the commercial vessel standard? That's ridiculous!
> 
> ...


Call it ridiculous if you wish.

Does Furuno call their MARPA units any where. I don't see that reference. They could lose much credibility with their commercial clients if they did. I only see sailnetters calling all Furuno RADARs full Commercial ARPAs. When I enter the search term Furuno ARPA, it takes me directly to a 21 inch commercial ARPA. Please provide the link where Furuno describes their 8.4 inch displays as ARPAs.

From what I can read on the Raymarine site they stop well short of it too. They say: Fully automatic ARPA target tracking, along with manual MARPA mode.

See that, marketing, they have used the ARPA word to describe the tracking capabilities but don't describe the unit as an ARPA, because I am sure the folks at Raymarine know what an ARPA is just the same as we do.

If you guys can find links of where either Raymarine or Furuno describe their small recreational units as commercial ARPAs, please provide the link, and we can compare the unit to the well and long published IMO ARPA specifications and performance standards and see if we have a match. Until then, call your units what you wish, call my statements ridiculous, wrong or whatever you like, but don't expect me to agree with you.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

First sentence above should read,"Does Furuno call their MARPA units ARPAS anywhere?".


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I'm thinking maybe you should start a thread on radar.

Thanks a lot GeorgeB. See what you've done?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> I'm thinking maybe you should start a thread on radar.
> 
> Thanks a lot GeorgeB. See what you've done?


Agreed, those who wish to discuss RADAR should start a thread about it. I am pretty sure it wasn't me who started that conversation.


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## DotDun (Dec 23, 2003)

Arcb said:


> Call it ridiculous if you wish.
> 
> Does Furuno call their MARPA units any where. I don't see that reference. They could lose much credibility with their commercial clients if they did. I only see sailnetters calling all Furuno RADARs full Commercial ARPAs. When I enter the search term Furuno ARPA, it takes me directly to a 21 inch commercial ARPA. Please provide the link where Furuno describes their 8.4 inch displays as ARPAs.
> 
> ...


Again, you are interpreting the IMO standard you referenced improperly. It is not a standard for ARPA, it is a standard covering *implementations of radar on commercial vessels.*

1) The standard is "PERFORMANCE STANDARDS FOR RADAR EQUIPMENT" on commercial vessels, not recreational vessels. Those vessels covered by the 1974 SOLAS Convention.

2) Using your line of thinking, Furuno, et al, can't call their units RADAR either.

Why are you maintaining that recreational vessels have to meet IMO commercial vessel requirements?


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> I'm in the same relative line of work still. And I completely agree with this.
> 
> I also am pleased to assure you and the readers about the robustness and lack of buginess in the iPad nav system that I've laid out previously - and tested myself extensively, finding it incredibly stable.
> 
> ...


I have had several projects that were in reaction to to very simple systems that were declared operational but turned out to be inexplicably flawed in the real world. The root of these problems was in a fundamental misunderstanding of the interaction of the system with the real world. Some of it was physics, some of it was human factors, and some of it was the operating system software, but all of it was exacerbated by inadequate testing before fielding.

You may have a stable platform (and my older iPad has been stable), but when you operate it in ways that are not extensively beta tested, you risk unexpected behavior-even when the modifications appear simple on the surface.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

fallard said:


> I have had several projects that were in reaction to to very simple systems that were declared operational but turned out to be inexplicably flawed in the real world. The root of these problems was in a fundamental misunderstanding of the interaction of the system with the real world. Some of it was physics, some of it was human factors, and some of it was the operating system software, but all of it was exacerbated by inadequate testing before fielding.
> 
> You may have a stable platform (and my older iPad has been stable), but when you operate it in ways that are not extensively beta tested, you risk unexpected behavior-even when the modifications appear simple on the surface.


Yes - but what I've been telling you and others for a while now is that I personally HAVE operated this particular system "in the real world"...*extensively*. And I have reported back the results after such fielding. Yet, I have been (and continue to be) personally attacked for it, and told by many here why it couldn't possibly have worked...even though it did - empirically (as I've shown)...and even though *none* of these detractors has done what I (and a few others in this thread who also actually understand this stuff) have done in extensively using and testing this iPad technology the way we have.

Think about that for a moment, Fallard. For example, who ran Grant off? He had lots of experience with iPad navigation that he was willing to share in this thread (and was in the middle of a freakin' circumnavigation! - so also had the serious sailing cred to go with it). And he was shouted down and run out by the angry few. Why? Is this what SN is supposed to be about?

There is unquestionably, as you put it, "a fundamental misunderstanding of the interaction of the system" on full display here on SN regarding iPads and navigation. No question. I haven't replied to many posts in this thread that make that very evident because I don't want to exacerbate the problems around here. But it's mind-boggling how some of the comments in this thread have been so far off the facts of this technology - yet so certain in their position. That much, at least, should be said so that readers know.

Maybe it's some slight irritation with my particular personage that hinders rationality for some. But if these few weren't so continually antagonistic, they actually might learn something about this topic. That would be nice for everyone involved I think.

Just my thoughts based on the last few pages.

As for you and me, it seems we are in full agreement that Garmin ActiveCaptain is definitely not the best solution if you're serious about fielding this particular technology bundle - or bungle in this case.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

DotDun said:


> Again, you are interpreting the IMO standard you referenced improperly. It is not a standard for ARPA, it is a standard covering *implementations of radar on commercial vessels.*
> 
> 1) The standard is "PERFORMANCE STANDARDS FOR RADAR EQUIPMENT" on commercial vessels, not recreational vessels. Those vessels covered by the 1974 SOLAS Convention.
> 
> ...


This is silly. Now you are asking purely hypothetical what if questions. As far as I know Furuno doesnt call their MARPAs ARPAs.

This conversation started because I said I had never personally seen an ARPA on a vessel under 70 ft in length. Which is true, thats a fact, I have never observed a vessel under 70 ft with an ARPA.

I was then quoted, and corrected by another member who said all Furuno RADARs offer full COMMERCIAL implementation. That wasn't me that said that. You get that? You are bugging the wrong person. I did not bring commercial into this. Read back through the posts, figure out who did and address them.

I havent bothered any body about their terminology except for two people that have directly quoted me to prove me wrong. You are one of them.

Furuno probably could call their units what ever they want, but as far as I know they don't, maybe because they could lose credibility with a big part of their client base who understand the technical and historical difference between commercial ARPAs and their less robust recreational counter parts.

Distinctions like this are not unique to this technology, people dont run around calling PLBs EPIRBs. They do the same thing, but have different performance standards, defined by the IMO. Even flares are categorised by performance standards.

I encourage those who wish to learn about the different types of RADAR to read a book or take a course.


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## DotDun (Dec 23, 2003)

Arcb said:


> This is silly. Now you are asking purely hypothetical what if questions. As far as I know Furuno doesnt call their MARPAs ARPAs.


Yes, it is silly. Instead of standing behind disclaimers, try a search on the Furunousa.com site for MARPA (0 hits) and ARPA (112 hits).



Arcb said:


> This conversation started because I said I had never personally seen an ARPA on a vessel under 70 ft in length. Which is true, thats a fact, I have never observed a vessel under 70 ft with an ARPA.


That only proves that you have never been on a <70 ft vessel that has Furuno's NavNet3D or TZTouch(2) system up and running with ARPA targets on the screen. It is not proof that such doesn't exist.



Arcb said:


> I was then quoted, and corrected by another member who said all Furuno RADARs offer full COMMERCIAL implementation. That wasn't me that said that. You get that? You are bugging the wrong person. I did not bring commercial into this. Read back through the posts, figure out who did and address them.


I interpreted his post as Furuno Radars include ARPA functionality like commercial vessels use, which, your only argument seems to be screen size. FYI, the TZT2 15" meets your screen size requirement.



Arcb said:


> I havent bothered any body about their terminology except for two people that have directly quoted me to prove me wrong. You are one of them.


You are wrong stating that a technology can't be called ARPA unless it meets your referenced standard. ARPA is a technology, your reference defines how radar is to be implemented on commercial vessels, your reference doesn't define 'ARPA'.

FYI, A.823(19) defines the performance standards for ARPA when implemented on commercial vessels. Feel free to compare those recommendations with Furuno's recreational equipment and let us know the differences.



Arcb said:


> Furuno probably could call their units what ever they want, but as far as I know they don't, maybe because they could lose credibility with a big part of their client base who understand the technical and historical difference between commercial ARPAs and their less robust recreational counter parts.


I'll enlighten you, the following is from Furunousa's website...I doubt any loss of credibility.

https://www.furunousa.com/en/knowledge_base/sales/navnet_3d_arpa_capability

https://www.furunousa.com/en/company/news_room/2017_drs4dlplus

https://www.furunousa.com/en/company/news_room/drs4dnxt



Arcb said:


> Distinctions like this are not unique to this technology, people dont run around calling PLBs EPIRBs. They do the same thing, but have different performance standards, defined by the IMO. Even flares are categorised by performance standards.
> 
> I encourage those who wish to learn about the different types of RADAR to read a book or take a course.


----------



## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

DotDun said:


> Yes, it is silly. Instead of standing behind disclaimers, try a search on the Furunousa.com site for MARPA (0 hits) and ARPA (112 hits).
> 
> That only proves that you have never been on a <70 ft vessel that has Furuno's NavNet3D or TZTouch(2) system up and running with ARPA targets on the screen. It is not proof that such doesn't exist.
> 
> ...


Also, please tell me if your interpretation of the meaning of the full commercial implementation post was the original post, or the back edited post.

I don't have anything against the edit function, I like it actually. I honestly don't think Mark intended the edit to have the consequences it did in this case.

The way this played out, was I read the post. Questioned it (internally). Made a mental note to review commercial standards for ARPA, which took me about 24 hours. I responded without rereading the post, not even realising the post had been back edited.

Now I have you trying to prove me wrong for responding to a post that I don't even know if you read, because it isn't there any more.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I was responding to the original full commercial implementation post, not the edited version, not the wishy washy interpretations of the back edited post.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

This what I know. I am a recreational sailor. I like and use radar. Often charts aren’t accurate, storms, tides, currents change things between the times I have the time or good enough internet to do updates. I’m always interested in not hitting things. I’m always interested in staying real far away from ships, fish boats with gear out, tows and other hazards. My limited MARPA helps me do that. I don’t care about MARPA/ARPA definitions. It’s a black box to me that helps me stay safe. My CP allows me to make best use of my radar. In my opinion the IPad doesn’t regardless of vitriol of prior posts. When it’s radar time everyone who has sailed on my boat or when I sail on someone’s else boat they go to the CP and drop the pad use. So I believe at present this is a shortcoming of pads and pad apps. 

I sail on occasion where it’s cold and wet. The pads are a PIA compared to the CP in that setting. Especially when you’ve been out for awhile and there’s nothing left dry to wipe the screen dry. Paper towels don’t work well even if you can keep one dry. I like the biggest screen possible. It makes it easier to see things. I can see my cp screen with my sunglasses on. I can’t see the pad well until I take them off.

I steer from behind the wheel with the AP off upon a landfall. I try to do land falls with the sun behind me. I have trouble seeing pad then. You can post all the pics you want but that’s me.

I know this post has no technical jargon and is simplistic. I’m sorry. I don’t care. I’m just an average joe cruiser. As such think if you have other things to do and want to get around safely there’s nothing wrong with a primary CP system. Personally think it’s still the better choice for those just wanting to turn something on and get around. 

Is it perfect. No, but still think there’s more functionality in a more easily used format. We had the radar on our RM fail 600m out. For us a big deal as I like it for squalls. Had a satphone conversation with a tech ( 5 minutes) got told how to reset/ reboot it without losing the master. Good to go. I appreciate that level of support. 

I’ve yet to see anything on the monumental thread that has changed my thinking. Will continue to use pads. May even put a nav program on the tough book ( ?which one do you like?) but the CP remains the go to for now.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Yes - but what I've been telling you and others for a while now is that I personally HAVE operated this particular system "in the real world"...*extensively*. And I have reported back the results after such fielding. Yet, I have been (and continue to be) personally attacked for it, and told by many here why it couldn't possibly have worked...even though it did - empirically (as I've shown)...and even though *none* of these detractors has done what I (and a few others in this thread who also actually understand this stuff) have done in extensively using and testing this iPad technology the way we have.
> 
> Think about that for a moment, Fallard. For example, who ran Grant off? He had lots of experience with iPad navigation that he was willing to share in this thread (and was in the middle of a freakin' circumnavigation! - so also had the serious sailing cred to go with it). And he was shouted down and run out by the angry few. Why? Is this what SN is supposed to be about?
> 
> ...


First of all, I have no problem with anyone providing their point of view based on personal experience, whether I agree with it or not. Nor do I expect everyone to agree with my opinions.

However, some of this thread has strains of "I'm right, you're wrong, and besides that you are a jerk" in a number of posts. That's when the thread becomes polarizing and combative-when folks are talking (yelling?) over each other. Even if you are not the target, it can get tiresome and you go into "ignore" mode-perhaps only for a while.

Anyway, I have checked out some of your suggestions and found them useful at times, but frankly your tone can be irritating, even when you are not in attack mode. I think you know that and have tried to mellow out-with some success IMHO. You might have a legitimate perspective on systems you've extensively checked out, but that isn't to say you have done a full beta test. When you waxed enthusiastic about the wireless Furuno RADAR, that was speculation on your part-not that it didn't look interesting.

This thread started out about tablets as backup. Some folks, like me, have permanently installed integrated systems that include RADAR. And some of us have been caught in situations where we had a difficult time punching hard buttons on an MFD at the helm and developed a bias against touch screens for a primary MFD--built-in or not. I'm old enough where you might consider my position hardening of the arteries, but I think of it a lessons learned. Still, to each his own.

FWIW, my primary anchor is a CQR, because I know how to use it. It helps that I have a 3-blade MaxProp that allows substantial reverse thrust to set it. I do have a Mantus anchor for my RIB dinghy, though, for all the reasons folks like "modern" anchors-like being able to leave it in the shallows and expecting it not to drift off in a wind shift.

Enough thread drift! On your last point, I would agree that AC is not the best solution. I am always skeptical of crowd-sourced information and take AC with a grain of salt. That said, I find AC incredibly useful-but not 100% trustworthy.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> Also, please tell me if your interpretation of the meaning of the full commercial implementation post was the original post, or the back edited post.
> 
> I don't have anything against the edit function, I like it actually. I honestly don't think Mark intended the edit to have the consequences it did in this case.
> 
> ...


Just to be accurate about this editing thing, I did not remove anything from my post at any time. I simply added a statement at the bottom of the post, labelled "Edit:" that added my attempt at clarity.

It can hardly be described as "back edited", and no part of it was ever removed from anyone's sight - it is still there in its entirety (regardless of your claims otherwise).

There is nothing wishy washy about my edit, nor anything nefarious - I only clarified that Furuno recently brought radomes to market which do not contain any ARPA functionality at all. Why you continue to harp about me claiming that units not containing the ability to do ARPA at all are actually commercial ARPA units is beyond me.

You keep pushing this "back edited" thing like it proves your point about something. It doesn't, and I think it is clear to everyone what actually happened.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

outbound said:


> When it's radar time everyone who has sailed on my boat or when I sail on someone's else boat they go to the CP and drop the pad use. So I believe at present this is a shortcoming of pads and pad apps.


I agree with this, but to put things in context, this thread started out considering tablets as chart plotters, not radars. Many boats have chart plotters but no radar, and some have separate chart plotters and radars. A tablet is much closer to a full chart plotter implementation in this context, but I agree that it is early stage for radar.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> The way this played out, was I read the post. Questioned it (internally). Made a mental note to review commercial standards for ARPA, which took me about 24 hours. I responded without rereading the post, not even realising the post had been back edited.
> 
> Now I have you trying to prove me wrong for responding to a post that I don't even know if you read, because it isn't there any more.
> 
> Stop putting words in my mouth. I was responding to the original full commercial implementation post, not the edited version, not the wishy washy interpretations of the back edited post.


I don't really care about this particular argument and wouldn't otherwise get in the middle of this one, but just because I get accused of this kind of stuff all the time, I'm not sure what you're accusing Mark of here with his edit. Here is the comment that is still in that post...



colemj said:


> Anyone with a recreational Furuno unit has a full commercial ARPA implementation. It is wonderful, and surprising for Furuno to give us something like this without extra cost (above the normal Furuno margin).
> 
> Edit: I mean anyone in the recent past. Obviously this discussion is showing that Furuno is now offering units without any ARPA functionality at all.


Where is the "wishy-washy", "isn't there anymore" part? He clearly makes the commercial ARPA statement above that you're hammering on (which I honestly think you're nitpicking the hell out of - precisely because, from what I understand now, *the functionality STARTS with the radome* - which he is referring to - making the display you're zeroing in on a secondary concern). And in that vein, he makes the correction that not all the Furuno radomes have this ARPA functionality as we've shown. Which is also correct. Yet here you are still going at him - the guy who you've loudly claimed you ignore.

Then it was you who stated this: "This is silly. Now you are asking purely hypothetical what if questions. As far as I know Furuno doesnt call their MARPAs ARPAs." You unilaterally define Furuno's offerings as MARPA? By what standard (as that seems to be important to you)?

And now you're being challenged by someone else on that who is providing good evidence to the contrary.

Look, I obviously don't mind a bit of a scuffle here and there. But if you're going to wade in with someone, the facts should be maintained. That helps the conversation a whole lot. And be ready to defend whatever you say with pertinent facts and not be upset if you're proven wrong on something. Throwing #EditShade doesn't help...and is really nothing more than stirring the pot. Being on the receiving end of this kind of thing for a long time, I think that if you're going to announce you're ignoring someone, you should totally ignore someone (button or not). Otherwise aren't you really just antagonizing them? I was told in no uncertain terms to ignore a couple of posters here on my return. And I have. It's not that hard.

Now, why don't you start an ARPA radar thread and let us get back to iPads, eh?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> I don't really care about this particular argument and wouldn't otherwise get in the middle of this one, but just because I get accused of this kind of stuff all the time, I'm not sure what you're accusing Mark of here with his edit. Here is the comment that is still in that post...
> 
> Where is the "wishy-washy", "isn't there anymore" part? He clearly makes the commercial ARPA statement above that you're hammering on (which I honestly think you're nitpicking the hell out of - precisely because, from what I understand now, *the functionality STARTS with the radome* - which he is referring to - making the display you're zeroing in on a secondary concern). And in that vein, he makes the correction that not all the Furuno radomes have this ARPA functionality as we've shown. Which is also correct. Yet here you are still going at him - the guy who you've loudly claimed you ignore.
> 
> ...


Sure, you and Colemj, and Dotdun are free to start a RADAR thread if you wish. This is not a one sided discussion and it was not started by me. Not by a long shot. So please, go ahead and start one.

No, I don't think Colesmjs edit was nefarious. He corrected a statement, however, I didn't read the correction before responding. Instead of just saying, ya, my bad, I corrected my error, he kept going at me. Fine, between here and CF, Colemj has been correcting what I say for years.

As for the other guy, I don't know what his problem is. He's trying to pretend like I am making a blanket statement rater than addressing the commercial implementation issue specifically.

He hasn't provided any evidence to support his point what so ever, just a few vague links to marketing material saying some Furuno and Raymarine units have ARPA features. I agree with that, they do. In fact, Furuno makes some very nice ARPAs, both commercial and recreational.

However, if you guys would even bother to read Furunos marketing stuff (I know Colemj already is aware of the distinction with the smaller displays, I am not talking about him here), you will see that Furuno doesn't start describing their display units as ARPA displays until the 21 inch models. Look at the marketing material that you are on about, you don't even need to refer to the performance standards.

I don't think Colemj was trying to burn me with the edit, not his style, however, it did change the meaning of the post significantly, and I only read the original.

If you want to start a thread about RADAR, go for it. I haven't learned a single thing in this discussion on RADAR, nothing. So I am not interested in starting one.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> This what I know. I am a recreational sailor. I like and use radar. Often charts aren't accurate, storms, tides, currents change things between the times I have the time or good enough internet to do updates. I'm always interested in not hitting things. I'm always interested in staying real far away from ships, fish boats with gear out, tows and other hazards. My limited MARPA helps me do that. I don't care about MARPA/ARPA definitions. It's a black box to me that helps me stay safe. My CP allows me to make best use of my radar. In my opinion the IPad doesn't regardless of vitriol of prior posts. When it's radar time everyone who has sailed on my boat or when I sail on someone's else boat they go to the CP and drop the pad use. So I believe at present this is a shortcoming of pads and pad apps.
> 
> I sail on occasion where it's cold and wet. The pads are a PIA compared to the CP in that setting. Especially when you've been out for awhile and there's nothing left dry to wipe the screen dry. Paper towels don't work well even if you can keep one dry. I like the biggest screen possible. It makes it easier to see things. I can see my cp screen with my sunglasses on. I can't see the pad well until I take them off.
> 
> ...


Out, this is a good post. I have no problem with it. As I've always said, preference for whatever solution is perfectly valid. A good example is the visibility thing. You can absolutely find empirical proof that newer iPads are brighter than our iPad2 (I have). And there might be empirical proof that MFDs are brighter than the newer iPads (though I haven't been able to find brightness specs for these newer MFDs, and have not seen one presented by anyone in these conversations). So, yes, my iPad2 does have this drawback - no question. So then it comes down to a personal decision on the *perceived* severity and importance of that issue vs the value of the solution in other areas. I made mine and explained and showed why. And you've made yours and explained why. No problem.

On the wetness thing, I've explained that it wasn't ever a problem on our extended trip in lots of rain...though your statement that a very wet screen on an iPad is also well backed-up by plenty of evidence. So, in this case, it is obviously an issue of "how wet" it needs to be to be a problem. That's what I'm going to test.

Finally, I agree with you that radar is not the best on iPads - and I also agree with Mark above that it is very early yet on implementation. However, it IS here, in increasingly and rapidly sophisticated implementations (which you're not going to find looking around marinas, BTW).

It sounds like you and I sail very much alike. And I fully agree with you that there's nothing wrong with a primary [traditional] CP system. I've never held otherwise - though I feel and have repeatedly said that *I think* the iPad is superior _*in many areas*_. The zero-sum-game in this particular conversation really began when I was accused of lying, and told that I was an irresponsible skipper, and was endangering my children by using an iPad as our primary CP system during our trip.

So it looks like we are all making progress here. That's good.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

On the wet screen thing, as I said I will test it and show it in my video. But here is a video showing an iPad in the same LifeProof Nuud case we have being put under water - then immediately used after pulling it out (without drying anything off)...






There are many other videos like this on Youtube - with one showing the guy using the iPad in a pool. The screen functions obviously don't work while completely submerged, but the moment he lifts the iPad out of the water to make changes to what he's doing the screen/interface works fine, then he goes back under. He does this many times. No wiping off, no drying hands, nothing.

So, as I've said, because we had no problems in the rain with wet screen and wet fingers (just like you're seeing in these videos) while using our iPad as a chartplotter, I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the conditions need to be for this to become an actual problem for this chartplotter at the helm scenario as many have stated. Hopefully I can find it in my testing.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> Fine, between here and CF, Colemj has been correcting what I say for years.


??? 
Don't know what your CF handle is, but I haven't contributed to CF for a long time - over two years.

Are you saying you shouldn't be corrected? That's a strange stance to take on internet forums (or life in general).

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

colemj said:


> ???
> Don't know what your CF handle is, but I haven't contributed to CF for a long time - over two years.
> 
> Are you saying you shouldn't be corrected? That's a strange stance to take on internet forums (or life in general).
> ...


f

It's been over 3 for me.

No, I am saying if you are going to correct me, get your facts straight. Thought I made that clear.

Now I have a 3 person posse ganging up on me to prove that their are not display standards for ARPAs, when I provided the evidence for my the display standards in my very first response to you on this topic. Excellent standards, the IMO performance standards for commercial ARPA. I strongly suspect you know those are the performance standards, but you have people believing the only relevant component in an ARPA is or any RADAR is the scanner. Which is utter BS.

A RADAR with out a display is of no value to any one. Just like a RADAR without a power supply is of no value to any one. It's a paper weight. It's irrelevant.

I have provided the only non marketing evidence in this discussion and have even explained to your posse where to look in the Furuno marketing material your posse is relying on to see which display units are considered by Furuno to be ARPA displays.

Easy to ignore the evidence when there it's 3 on 1. But this is a topic I know and understand well enough the 3 on 1 tactic and the "you are wrong" attitude isn't deterring me.

I am only asking if you endeavour to teach me about a subject, or try to correct me on something, be accurate and factual.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

I have already responded to the display issue, and am not arguing that point. I am arguing that you are shading the definition and attempting to corner me into something I didn't mean. I was talking about those radars having commercial ARPA performance. They do, and you have been shown that. The radomes offered for this function in recreational settings are the same ones offered to commercial operations. They have the same performance.

You are nit-picking on what makes a regulated ARPA installation on a commercial ship. That now seems to be solely the size of the display used to display the ARPA data the (commercial) radomes send to it. They have nothing to do with the ARPA performance because they are not involved with the ARPA functionality itself.

And commercial ARPA functionality was what I was posting about. This must be clear to everyone except you, and unfortunately I seemed to have left enough wiggle room in my communication for you to jump on it with shading of my words.

So let's be clear. You agree that boats with recreational Furuno radars, the ones that include ARPA functionality, and are paired with one of the appropriate sized recreational displays, are full commercial ARPA systems. And the same ones that do not have an appropriately sized display are full ARPA systems in the commercial definition of ARPA functionality, but do not meet regulations for a commercial ARPA installation only because of the display size.

OK. Fine. Keep with that rigor and ignore the actual point. I won't contest it any longer. It won't help anyone in deciding which radar to get if ARPA is their criteria, but it does allow you to calm down a bit.

Several of Furuno's recreational displays do meet this size requirement, BTW. And they are found widely in boats under 70'.

And I think you need more than 2 people to form a posse.

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Yes, I have always agreed that an ARPA functional scanner displayed on a ARPA functional display can form components of an ARPA system. I never denied that. But you had folks who know very little about RADARs believing that a stand alone scanner can make an ARPA, without a corresponding appropriate display.

Reread the performance standards I linked, they are not only regarding the display. I used the display section to explain the issue because simple dimensions are an easy concept for people without developed understanding of RADAR systems to understand and because it's very easy for me to articulate a concept like physical dimensions to illustrate that a 6 inch display isn't 11 inches.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> I strongly suspect you know those are the performance standards, but you have people believing the only relevant component in an ARPA is or any RADAR is the scanner. Which is utter BS.
> 
> ...
> 
> But you had folks who know very little about RADARs believing that a stand alone scanner can make an ARPA, without a corresponding appropriate display.


I don't see where Mark ever made this statement or even implied such a thing. And I certainly don't believe that.

And I doubt anyone else here does. But I'll let them speak for themselves.

I really think you're jumping the shark here arc. I read your linked doc and it seems it all boils down in this conversation to screensize - *not functionality* - for the commercial installations. And that would make sense to me - but it really has little-to-nothing to do with having ARPA functionality on a recreational boat as Mark has been saying. Yes, he might have stated it better in that post - but I think you're just intentionally winding things up here.

So I'm moving on.

PS - Can you show me where he was all over you at CF? Or at least let me know what your handle was over there so I can look. Sounds like pretty old beef.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> Where is the "wishy-washy", "isn't there anymore" part? He clearly makes the commercial ARPA statement above that you're hammering on (which I honestly think you're nitpicking the hell out of - precisely because, from what I understand now, *the functionality STARTS with the radome* - which he is referring to - making the display you're zeroing in on a secondary concern).


You are right Smack. Mark didn't say the displays were irrelevant or of secondary concern. You did, which I find interesting since you just started learning about ARPA what, yesterday?

I don't even think you have had time to read the performance standards yet and you are correcting me. That's the posse thing I was referring to. You thought some one on your side said something so you decided to jump in.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> Are you saying you shouldn't be corrected?


I honestly think this is at the heart of much the general angst around here - and has been for a while. SN life (or ANY forum really) would be much better if there was some respect for experience, facts, and a willingness to learn - regardless of where the info comes from and what it's about - rather than a "my way or the highway"/"I'm better than you" mentality.

One nice thing is that I think we've seen an increase in cut-and-paste in this thread. And that's good! It's how you can prove your viewpoint - or at least what informs that viewpoint...and it's how readers can weigh out the various responses. THAT'S beneficial for everyone.

It's when you provide only opinion then get upset if it's corrected - just because it was corrected - that any educational value is lost.

You guys have a great weekend. I've got a video to make and lots of cut-and-pasting to do!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> You are right Smack. Mark didn't say the displays were irrelevant or of secondary concern. You did, which I find interesting since you just started learning about ARPA what, yesterday?
> 
> I don't even think you have had time to read the performance standards yet and you are correcting me. That's the posse thing I was referring to. You thought some one on your side said something so you decided to jump in.


Okay arc, I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. And as I've said - I don't care about ARPA. I've just been reading this stuff and commenting on what I'm reading. But I will ask you to evaluate these two statements...

Mine...


> the functionality STARTS with the radome - which he is referring to - making the display you're zeroing in on a secondary concern


vs.

Yours...


> ...a stand alone scanner can make an ARPA, without a corresponding appropriate display...
> 
> ...the only relevant component in an ARPA is or any RADAR is the scanner...


Surely you can see the difference - and why there seems to be a disconnect here?

So carry on however you'd like. Hopefully GeorgeB will start a new thread on this since he originally asked the question. I'd read that thread.

But as I said, I'm moving on and going back to the topic at hand. It's not worth going in circles with you over.

However, since you've made this claim about Mark harassing you over 3 years ago on CF, and that being the reason you're going after him now, I would like to see what you're talking about so I can judge for myself. What was your handle over there? I can't find an "arcb" user.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> Okay arc, I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. And as I've said - I don't care about ARPA. I've just been reading this stuff and commenting on what I'm reading. But I will ask you to evaluate these two statements...
> 
> Mine...
> 
> ...


Except I didn't only provide opinion. I provided 34 pages of internationally agreed to performance standards. It was your posse that was providing opinion without evidence or with marketing material only.

I didn't use the word harassment. That's you extrapolating again. I said correcting. I am okay with being corrected from time to time if the correction is at least accurate or evidence based.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> Except I didn't only provide opinion. I provided 34 pages of internationally agreed to performance standards. It was your posse that was providing opinion without evidence or with marketing material only.
> 
> I didn't use the word harassment. That's you extrapolating again. I said correcting. I am okay with being corrected from time to time if the correction is at least accurate or evidence based.


Well, if you're still upset enough 3 years later to bring it up here while clearly going after the guy - it has to go a little deeper than you being okay with it.

What was your username there? Simple question. Mine was Smackdaddy. And Mark's is/was colemj.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> Well, if you're still upset enough 3 years later to bring it up here while clearly going after the guy - it has to go a little deeper than you being okay with it.
> 
> What was your username there? Simple question. Mine was H. And Mark's is/was colemj.


Talk about off topic, why don't you start a thread: other people's handles on different forums, I'm sure it might set a new thread lock record even by your standards.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Smack, don’t blame me – I was just trying to ascertain the degree of integration your iPad system has. The whole radar thing is a little like three blind men and an elephant. As I stated before, I’m more curious than an advocate and to (miss)quote Dirty Harry, “In all this confusion, I can’t remember if I fired five shots or six”. Perhaps at some point you can recap some salient points like the name of your software (Nobletech?), what sensors you are interfacing with, what iPad you are using. and most importantly to Mrs. B, what waterproof housing. What I can figure out through all this chaff is you are picking up data from a NMEA 0183 bus (speed, depth, wind, GPS and AIS) via a WiFi connection. This makes your software a “listener” in the NMEA vernacular. Your software takes in all this data, processes it, then displays it on the chart. I don’t think your software is a “talker” insomuch that it is controlling your other devices (such as controlling your autohelm). Am I correct to assume that the chart works in “north up” and not in “head up” mode? I am not aware if radar uses NMEA statements. I’d be curious as to what the prefix is if you have it. Is your radar plugged into the NMEA ring?

So, way back in a former life I was an “Old Crow”, and hence, I have a working knowledge of Radar fundamentals. Colemj, can you direct me some further documentation as to how this Furnaro Radar is designed? (I’ll have to dig out my Raymarine documentation to see how they do it.) We (recreational) sail boaters abhor weight aloft and excessive power consumption so we traditionally gravitated to the little 2kw sets. After-all, we are mostly looking for collision avoidance in about the same range as our Mk1 eyeballs. Units starting at 4kw level begin to have the resolution needed to do things like ARPA (MARPA is something different). Arcb’s radar could very well have been something in the 6 to 12kw range and a 24 to 48” beam antenna which gives you the ability to do some cool stuff with target plotting and ARPA features. I see that Funaro offers a 4kw set up with basic ARPA functions in an antenna footprint approaching a 2kw set. Pretty cool, but I’m happy with my Raymarine unit so I won’t be starting a new thread on Radar.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> Talk about off topic, why don't you start a thread: other people's handles on different forums, I'm sure it might set a new thread lock record even by your standards.


Okay - as you yourself have stated many times as a bar of measurement around here, *you're* the one that brought it up in this thread. And now you're dodging when asked to provide proof.

So, I'm personally going to dismiss this claim of yours against Mark as just more intentional stirring of the pot and attempting to sow discord in yet another thread.

And I'm now done with you arc. I have tried very hard to be straight up with you in these discussions. I admire what you did on that Prindle. I think it was freakin' incredible and I have HUGE respect for that accomplishment. And there are other areas where you have a lot to offer. But it's not worth it.

I just don't understand why you guys keep doing this over and over. But it's not my sandbox.

Later.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> Smack, don't blame me - I was just trying to ascertain the degree of integration your iPad system has. The whole radar thing is a little like three blind men and an elephant. As I stated before, I'm more curious than an advocate and to (miss)quote Dirty Harry, "In all this confusion, I can't remember if I fired five shots or six". Perhaps at some point you can recap some salient points like the name of your software (Nobletech?), what sensors you are interfacing with, what iPad you are using. and most importantly to Mrs. B, what waterproof housing. What I can figure out through all this chaff is you are picking up data from a NMEA 0183 bus (speed, depth, wind, GPS and AIS) via a WiFi connection. This makes your software a "listener" in the NMEA vernacular. Your software takes in all this data, processes it, then displays it on the chart. I don't think your software is a "talker" insomuch that it is controlling your other devices (such as controlling your autohelm). Am I correct to assume that the chart works in "north up" and not in "head up" mode? I am not aware if radar uses NMEA statements. I'd be curious as to what the prefix is if you have it. Is your radar plugged into the NMEA ring?
> 
> So, way back in a former life I was an "Old Crow", and hence, I have a working knowledge of Radar fundamentals. Colemj, can you direct me some further documentation as to how this Furnaro Radar is designed? (I'll have to dig out my Raymarine documentation to see how they do it.) We (recreational) sail boaters abhor weight aloft and excessive power consumption so we traditionally gravitated to the little 2kw sets. After-all, we are mostly looking for collision avoidance in about the same range as our Mk1 eyeballs. Units starting at 4kw level begin to have the resolution needed to do things like ARPA (MARPA is something different). Arcb's radar could very well have been something in the 6 to 12kw range and a 24 to 48" beam antenna which gives you the ability to do some cool stuff with target plotting and ARPA features. I see that Funaro offers a 4kw set up with basic ARPA functions in an antenna footprint approaching a 2kw set. Pretty cool, but I'm happy with my Raymarine unit so I won't be starting a new thread on Radar.


George - I don't blame you. I wouldn't step into that minefield either. I'm headed out, but will try to get you some specific answers ASAP. One quick point - iNavX with the iMux like we had is a talker (repeater) as well that can control AP. So it is 2-way on the NMEA side. Here's a video showing how it works on another boat with a dude far less handsome and intriguing than myself...






Talk to you later...you rabblerouser.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

GeorgeB said:


> Smack, don't blame me - I was just trying to ascertain the degree of integration your iPad system has. The whole radar thing is a little like three blind men and an elephant. As I stated before, I'm more curious than an advocate and to (miss)quote Dirty Harry, "In all this confusion, I can't remember if I fired five shots or six". Perhaps at some point you can recap some salient points like the name of your software (Nobletech?), what sensors you are interfacing with, what iPad you are using. and most importantly to Mrs. B, what waterproof housing. What I can figure out through all this chaff is you are picking up data from a NMEA 0183 bus (speed, depth, wind, GPS and AIS) via a WiFi connection. This makes your software a "listener" in the NMEA vernacular. Your software takes in all this data, processes it, then displays it on the chart. I don't think your software is a "talker" insomuch that it is controlling your other devices (such as controlling your autohelm). Am I correct to assume that the chart works in "north up" and not in "head up" mode? I am not aware if radar uses NMEA statements. I'd be curious as to what the prefix is if you have it. Is your radar plugged into the NMEA ring?


I know this is addressed to Smackdaddy, but I've noticed something as an outsider about your last couple of post questions. I think you think that SD is using radar in his tablet app. If so, you confused a post where he posted a picture of radar being used on a tablet, but it wasn't his, nor the software app he has experience with and has been discussing.

Also, since a NMEA mux wifi server is being used, all of the data are coming across, including heading. So the tablet can operate in HU or NU modes regardless of its true attitude in use. Like turning a chart plotter around.

And similarly, if a tablet app did "talk", it wouldn't be an issue using a MUX.



GeorgeB said:


> So, way back in a former life I was an "Old Crow", and hence, I have a working knowledge of Radar fundamentals. Colemj, can you direct me some further documentation as to how this Furnaro Radar is designed? (I'll have to dig out my Raymarine documentation to see how they do it.) We (recreational) sail boaters abhor weight aloft and excessive power consumption so we traditionally gravitated to the little 2kw sets. After-all, we are mostly looking for collision avoidance in about the same range as our Mk1 eyeballs. Units starting at 4kw level begin to have the resolution needed to do things like ARPA (MARPA is something different). Arcb's radar could very well have been something in the 6 to 12kw range and a 24 to 48" beam antenna which gives you the ability to do some cool stuff with target plotting and ARPA features. I see that Funaro offers a 4kw set up with basic ARPA functions in an antenna footprint approaching a 2kw set. Pretty cool, but I'm happy with my Raymarine unit so I won't be starting a new thread on Radar.


I can't provide that information due to very limited bandwidth capabilities right now, and also due to being bored to death with the subject. The radar isn't designed differently - it is a pulse radar. I don't know how old your RM radar is, but the current radars have been "digital" for quite a while now. What this means is that the actual data processing occurs in the radome itself, and the processed data is sent to a display unit via a digital protocol and cabling (typically ethernet). Our radome will feed our computer via ethernet, but only display on Maxsea software (Maxsea is Furuno software). This is because everyone uses proprietary protocols to keep their radomes sold with their CP's and not with others. A couple of the protocols have been hacked (Navico, for example), and software like OCPN uses and displays them. I wish someone would hack Furuno's protocols and formats.

Radar absolute power doesn't have a lot to do with (M)ARPA. Lower power will perform worse at its limits, but they all reach limits eventually. It has more to do with algorithms and heading sensors - and a good electronic design, of course. Heading sensor makes a huge difference. Furuno is clear that it wants at least 10Hz heading data rates with <1.5* accuracy.

I spent the summer operating a 12kW 6' Furuno open array and hoo-boy was that a sweet radar! It even used a display large enough to be a "commercial ARPA", although it was on a measly 47' recreational boat.

Mark


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

I'm wondering if there isn't some confusion between ARPA and MARPA on this thread (BTW, about tablets as backup?). It would appear unlikely that a recreational sailor of the sort that might chat on SN would have a commercial grade radar with Automatic Radar Plotting Aid (ARPA) functionality. Rather, if he/she has recreational radar that isn't too old or isn't the Furuno wireless unit, it likely has Mini Automatic Radar Plotting Aid (MARPA) functionality.

The difference is that MARPA is not really automatic in that you have to manually tag targets for tracking and intercept. The bigger and more expensive commercial units do this automatically.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

fallard said:


> I'm wondering if there isn't some confusion between ARPA and MARPA on this thread (BTW, about tablets as backup?). It would appear unlikely that a recreational sailor of the sort that might chat on SN would have a commercial grade radar with Automatic Radar Plotting Aid (ARPA) functionality. Rather, if he/she has recreational radar that isn't too old or isn't the Furuno wireless unit, it likely has Mini Automatic Radar Plotting Aid (MARPA) functionality.
> 
> The difference is that MARPA is not really automatic in that you have to manually tag targets for tracking and intercept. The bigger and more expensive commercial units do this automatically.


Yes, this definition is true, and many likely do have MARPA.

Furuno, however, put full ARPA functionality in their recreational radars. In fact, they sell the same radomes/arrays to their commercial market as they do their recreational market (along with a larger selection of bigger ones). It is commercial grade ARPA performance, and commercial grade ARPA gear, with the caveat that one needs a proper sized display for it to meet certain commercial installation regulations.

AFAIK, Furuno does not offer MARPA units.

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

There is also the term ATA or Atoumatic Tracking Aid. This could describe a system somewhere between a MARPA and an ARPA, that has automatic tracking, but doesnt meet the performance standards of a full blown ARPA. An example might be a powerful tracking scanner displayed on an undersized screen.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> I honestly think this is at the heart of much the general angst around here - and has been for a while. SN life (or ANY forum really) would be much better if there was some respect for experience, facts, and a willingness to learn - regardless of where the info comes from and what it's about - rather than a "my way or the highway"/"I'm better than you" mentality.
> 
> One nice thing is that I think we've seen an increase in cut-and-paste in this thread. And that's good! It's how you can prove your viewpoint - or at least what informs that viewpoint...and it's how readers can weigh out the various responses. THAT'S beneficial for everyone.
> 
> ...


Is 
That really an interesting statement from you.

Where in this thread were you called a liar. I don't see it. You are bring up past posts. However you can't rewrite history . You got banned because of that thread if I remember. Why is it clashes follow all your threads. Do you really beleive any of us or I follow you around. If you do as you accused me of ....you are just silly. I actually have a boat to sail. And friends on here to sail with and meet. You can't learn from you unless you fight through all the self promoting statements. We all can capture the Internet statements in posts by googling this ourselves. Many of us look for real time experience.

Don't beleive this guy has changed his MO. He's just more subtle. The posse quote was Daddy's way of taking a swipe at me. It's in my moniker. He knows that. He hasn't changed at all. But he serverley doesn't understand how/ why that got in the moniker.

There are a number of Chesapeake sailors who years ago used to get together at Rondevous held every year . We had great times a commradiere together and enjoyed meeting. A very positive experience and a direct positive result of Sailnet. At one of the Rondevous Some of us came up with the Cheapeake Posse saying. That how it got attached to my Sn screename. Many of those same people still post here. Many of us remain friends also either in person or through here. We are also ALL very divergent personalities who have no trouble arguing with each other. However with respect always. We actually get excited when we are lucky enough to see each other out on the vast Chesapeake. At one point we almost had a flag made to run up on our flag halyard so in an anchorage we could spot people easily. BTW we have the greatest longest running thread if you add the years up. Very rarely do you see snarkiness in it. Disagreements yes. Strong personalities.yes. Also lots of great posts on projects as wells as places we visit on weekends or cruises. Much respect. That's the real Posse if their is one. The Chessie sailors

Ah the cut and paste Daddy joking statements are also subtly aimed at the former SN poster SV Auspicious. This exact statement..." beware of cut and paste sailors" was in his moniker on here. He truly was an electronics expert. His career was built on it and he helped many in the Chesapeake with their electronics personally as well as others on SN.. In addition he was President of SSCA an organization which promotes and supports cruisers. He was just an opinionated blowhard, he put the time in too and lobbied for all boaters. YHe logged thousands of miles as a Delivery captain also. His credentials were impeccable . Just as Mainesails are with mechanics and electricity. Both truly are/were SN gems whose advice in those fields. Was spot on and priceless. (When Dave and I argued it was never about electronics.)

We all have lost not having him here posting anymore . Most who know him know that.IMHO Daddy's actions cost many on here true experiencing expert knowledge from a true sailor. That's what happened

Cole you proved exactly what I as talking about. You went back hours later and substantially altered a post just like your buddy. You exp ct us to beleive you, which personally I don't. You could have just as easily just added an addendum. None of us sit on here and have the time to try and catch what you and Smacky are really altering. When you say something in printing and hours later alter it in the printed word that's downright playing with people. In the world it's fraudulent.

Going back hours llater and "correcting " a post by deleting on adding to it. That's bull.

Cole, BTW I am proud to keep my boat in a marina . Probably many posters on here do, or on moorings. I am probably more representative of the sailing style many SN posters do than you are . There is no shame using a boat that way. Just because you "cruise"doesn't make you a superior sailor.

Exhibit 1....when Daddy was banned there was very little snipping and personality issues on SN. Respect is lacking in the threads he participates in again. Its not the fingers he points at others to deflect the truth. " why is everybody picking on me"". People always following me "." I am trying to be good" but he is the common denominator to the discourse. It's only a matter of time before history repeats itself as you can't change the spots on a leopard. And those who may point this out should not be made out to be wrong or at fault.

Nothing more to be learned in this thread. I won't post anymore in it, but watch, if he's true to form will come "the last word" in a personality assassination from him or his alter ego. I promise I will not take their bait. I'll be out sailng anyway....starting this week.?????

. Hopefully someone will start a radar thread as I have learned some from those comments here. Hopefully the "real radar experts "will be allowed to be experts and the computer screen based sailors don't force that thread into personality crap.

From a proud original member of the Chesapeake Posse


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I read Panbo to get the latest developments in Navigation electronics. It's very fact based and Ben covers all things electrical on a boat as well as navigation. The people who comment are very knowledgeable about marine electronics.

The thread drifted and unfortunately degenerated into ad homs and personality disputes. That sort of thing makes it hard for someone to learn anything...

Finally... sailors with different boats, sailing in different waters... with different budgets and needs...and of course experience will have diverse solutions for the problems of how to go from here to there. 

The Sailboat

How simple, yet complex
Each part essential
Time tested solutions
To the problems
Of how to go
From here to there
With wings of cloth
Flying through the air
Yet swimming too
With fins of metal
Across vast oceans blue
Touching and caressing
Each land 
On our planet Earth
Afloat in a vast 
Heavenly sea of stars

Men of all times
Looked to the heavens
to find their way
Knowing the signs
Placed skyward 
To guide them 
Over infinite waves 
Disappearing into the horizon
Where all dreams lay

Now electrons too small
For senses to know
Carry the messages
From man made stars
Too insignificant to shine
A matrix of ideas
Dividing the earth 
Into precise little squares
Like addresses 
In a metropolis
For all to know 
With the need to go
From here to there


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> Cole you proved exactly what I as talking about. You went back hours later and substantially altered a post just like your buddy. You exp ct us to beleive you, which personally I don't. You could have just as easily just added an addendum. None of us sit on here and have the time to try and catch what you and Smacky are really altering. When you say something in printing and hours later alter it in the printed word that's downright playing with people. In the world it's fraudulent.
> 
> Going back hours llater and "correcting " a post by deleting on adding to it. That's bull.


Wow. I don't know what to say to this. You are wrong on every level here. It wasn't "hours" later that I edited a post, it was less than an hour. About the time it took me to reread it and realize that it wasn't as clear as I wanted it to be.

I never deleted the post and then added on to it. Or even changed the original post in any way. Never. Every word I ever written is all there. I'm sure there is some way of checking that if you wish. And if it was me making such a bold statement, I would have certainly checked that the facts were on my side. Otherwise the BS is you. Prove that it isn't or go away. Or challenge me to prove it, and I will demand an apology. Your choice, but make a choice - don't be a coward.

I did add an addendum to that post. It was added right at the end of the post and clearly marked. I don't see how that differs from making an entirely new post. Certainly, if I did that, arcb would still have his same beef about it because it would not have changed anything in his stated timeline.

I didn't alter the post. I simply added clarification to the meaning in the original post. Even a 1st grader can look at it and see the original post, and the edit referring to the words in the original post that I was clarifying. Why would I even be referring to original wording if I had removed those words?

The fraud is your accusation.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

OK, these accusation riled me enough to figured this out. Here is the entire history of my edit of that post:



> Post Comparison
> 
> 
> Arcb said:
> ...


That is it. You see the original post with the entire edit of it. If you want to quibble about the "hours later" part, I can prove you wrong on that too.

You are wrong on every level and owe me an apology. I have faint hope you are man enough to provide it.

Edit: your silence will show your true colors.

Mark


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> On the wet screen thing, as I said I will test it and show it in my video. But here is a video showing an iPad in the same LifeProof Nuud case we have being put under water - then immediately used after pulling it out (without drying anything off)...
> 
> iPad 3 underwater w/LifeProof - YouTube
> 
> ...


Do you really believe everything you see on the internet?

A perfectly clean iPad screen (perhaps treated with RainX or similar), handled on the bezel so as not to contaminate the screen with body oils, submerged in perfectly clean, calm tap water, then removed at an angle so that the water will drain perfectly off the screen will result in a dry screen that works perfectly. And if not, repeat it enough times and you'll get it to work by take five or so.

Now let's talk real life. Use the screen for awhile with your unwashed, sweaty fingers (thus putting oils and proteins on the screen), spray it with some impure sea water (or dirty dishwater to simulate), let it dry, then spray again. You'll end up with a few dozen drops of water on it, and even if you wipe it down with that damp, dirty towel that just got soaked with sea spray in you cockpit, you'll still have water sticking to it. Because of the high capacitance of water, your tablet will think it's being touched by a few dozen fingers, and won't sense your real fingers touching it.

Since you're so good at taking videos, I suggest you try this yourself rather than cut-and-paste misleading Youtube videos from people you don't know or trust.

I am speaking to you as someone who uses these tablets as my primary means of navigation. I have no axe to grind. I sail in very protected conditions under a nicely covered cockpit, but even I have one or two times a season when the touchscreen fails because water gets on it and it stops working. In fact, it happened with my iPhone a couple days ago when there was some light drizzle outside.

[EDIT: Sorry, I was interrupted between reading your message and responding, so I missed a couple things. If you've never had this problem with your touchscreen, good for you! I'd suggest you not push your luck, and have a waterproof backup available.]


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## isuee94 (Mar 9, 2018)

chef2sail said:


> Ah the cut and paste Daddy joking statements are also subtly aimed at the former SN poster SV Auspicious. This exact statement..." beware of cut and paste sailors" was in his moniker on here. He truly was an electronics expert. His career was built on it and he helped many in the Chesapeake with their electronics personally as well as others on SN.. In addition he was President of SSCA an organization which promotes and supports cruisers. *He was just an opinionated blowhard*, he put the time in too and lobbied for all boaters. YHe logged thousands of miles as a Delivery captain also. His credentials were impeccable . Just as Mainesails are with mechanics and electricity. Both truly are/were SN gems whose advice in those fields. Was spot on and priceless. (When Dave and I argued it was never about electronics.)


Was or wasn't? Maybe you should edit that...unless you're against editing. :wink


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> Do you really believe everything you see on the internet?
> 
> A perfectly clean iPad screen (perhaps treated with RainX or similar), handled on the bezel so as not to contaminate the screen with body oils, submerged in perfectly clean, calm tap water, then removed at an angle so that the water will drain perfectly off the screen will result in a dry screen that works perfectly. And if not, repeat it enough times and you'll get it to work by take five or so.
> 
> ...


Do I believe everything I see on the internet? No. Especially not on Sailnet - and *especially* on this topic. Otherwise I would have never gone this direction in the first place.

But when dudes are doing this in the pool with their iPad2 in the same case I have...






...one has to wonder what all this fearful hubbub is about.

And although I've *already* tested this issue VERY thoroughly over the extended cruise we used our iPad for in very wet, rough conditions...with it performing just fine as I've said (just like the videos above)...I am going to do a wet-screen test in my video. Just not what you're proposing. I recommend that people keep their screens clean. It helps avoid the problems you're talking about...and is just common sense really.

Oh - and my iPad *is* waterproof. More waterproof than today's leading MFDs actually.

Oh - and if you're going to test this stuff, you *have* to "push your luck" and be willing to have the device fail to see if it will or not. I did. And it didn't.

That's all I'm saying. And that's one thing in the internet you CAN believe.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

[I[/I]


isuee94 said:


> Was or wasn't? Maybe you should edit that...unless you're against editing. :wink


Ah the cut and paste Daddy joking statements are also subtly aimed at the former SN poster SV Auspicious. This exact statement..." beware of cut and paste sailors" was in his moniker on here. He truly was an electronics expert. His career was built on it and he helped many in the Chesapeake with their electronics personally as well as others on SN.. In addition he was President of SSCA an organization which promotes and supports cruisers. *He was just an opinionated blowhard, *he put the time in too and lobbied for all boaters. YHe logged thousands of miles as a Delivery captain also. His credentials were impeccable . Just as Mainesails are with mechanics and electricity. Both truly are/were SN gems whose advice in those fields. Was spot on and priceless. (When Dave and I argued it was never about 
electronics.)

Thanks...I meant to say was not here.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I have more valuable things to contribute to this thread, but I'm worn out. It seems that here you either agree with a certain person 100%, or you get a firehose of attitude, marketing propaganda, and Youtube videos. It seems that the vast majority of the cut-and-paste Youtube videos were developed to sell you something (iPad cases, software, multis), which should arise suspicion, but is believed hook, line, and sinker by someone who wants to believe.

Valuable discussion can only happen when there is respect. Something like, "I see your point, and can understand that your situation could be different," could keep the conversation constructive. Instead, the tone seems to be "Take that, Sucka!!!!"

I have better things to do. My impeller replacement awaits.

Out.


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## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> I have more valuable things to contribute to this thread, but I'm worn out. It seems that here you either agree with a certain person 100%, or you get a firehose of attitude, marketing propaganda, and Youtube videos. It seems that the vast majority of the cut-and-paste Youtube videos were developed to sell you something (iPad cases, software, multis), which should arise suspicion, but is believed hook, line, and sinker by someone who wants to believe.
> 
> Valuable discussion can only happen when there is respect. Something like, "I see your point, and can understand that your situation could be different," could keep the conversation constructive. Instead, the tone seems to be "Take that, Sucka!!!!"
> 
> ...


I use a tablet for navigation as well as a mounted chart plotter. I would have been able to contribute something here but I have had my share of being bludgeoned by Smackdaddy's rhetorics, being accused of participating in some sinister conspiracy that 'follows' him etc.

Pretty much everywhere that Smackdaddy appears I stopped contributing (though I may read a thread for amusement). Unfortunately, the same seems to be true for much more knowledgeable people than me like SVAuscipious, Mainesail etc that either avoid Smack-infested threads or were run off Sailnet entirely by him

We are all losing out with their departures.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> It seems that here you either agree with a certain person 100%, or you get a firehose of attitude, marketing propaganda, and Youtube videos. It seems that the vast majority of the cut-and-paste Youtube videos were developed to sell you something (iPad cases, software, multis), which should arise suspicion, but is believed hook, line, and sinker by someone who wants to believe.


This is slightly off-topic, but I do want to address this because it's an accusation that has been leveled at me several times now by this same group of guys - in this thread and others as he acknowledges in his post - and I think it's important for readers to understand what's really going on here.

What this guy above is saying is that by me posting visual evidence and/or formal documentation that *counters* certain forum claims about whatever topic is being discussed (see his list) - that that in itself should "arise suspicion" [sic]. That you as a reader/viewer have to "want to believe" in order to accept what you're actually reading/seeing from these sources instead of...get ready for it...

_...accepting what's being typed by unknown nicknames/avatars (mine or anyone else's) on a sailing forum without evidence or attribution._.

I've been around sailing forums for a decade. And this is a critical aspect of these discussions, because people read SN and other sailing forums *to learn* about these things. In fact, I've been doing just that as I've gone from a scrappy newb sailor to a Board-Certified World-Renowned Sailing Celebrity.

There's ALWAYS stuff to learn. And a common complaint you always see from people trying to learn new things on sailing forums of any stripe is that there are *always conflicting opinions on how to do just about anything*...leaving the reader unsure who to believe or what to do.

So, how DO you decide who to believe? To me the answer has always been you believe those who take the time to provide the best evidence that backs their opinion/statements. Photos, videos, documentation, whatever.

So, back to this issue of "cut and paste". When that term is used in a derogatory way as it is toward me by this group of guys, think about the alternative. Isn't the alternative that "you should believe me simply because I say so - and because I claim to be an expert in X or Y - and because person Z backs me on this forum"? Is that really better than "cut and paste"? The answer - obviously - is no it is not. That's not a learning environment - that's a boys club. And I've never been interested in the boys club. I'm a sailor.

So, back to the videos above that show *actual usage* of the iPads that is counter to what has been said in this thread as a major drawback for using iPads as chartplotters in wet environments. Look at those two videos. Do you really think they are marketing videos? Do you really think both of the iPads have been treated in some way to trick the viewer? Is it really a big conspiracy? Or are they videos by average guys who are excited to show technology that actually works?

Same with information from manufacturer websites that have been pulled into this thread by me and others. Is it all really just "marketing" material that is only "believed hook, line, and sinker by someone who wants to believe" - or is it actually primarily technical information from published specs and/or user manuals?

So, no, even though I *am* a lauded expert in BFS and internet humor and hijinx, I don't ever expect you to simply take my word for *anything*. I'll work harder than that. I'll put together plenty of actual evidence from various reliable sources - including *me actually using this stuff while sailing*. And I challenge anyone making a counterpoint to do the same.

I just feel that if I'm going to claim something - I owe you that cut and paste so you can see for yourself and make your own judgement. And I won't get my feelings hurt if you provide cut and paste evidence of your own that proves my cut and paste evidence wrong - like Mark did above correcting me on SEAiq. That's learning. That's good...for all of us.

So, my friends, THAT is why I...









Now - I need to finish my coffee and get back to my video.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> This is slightly off-topic, but I do want to address this because it's an accusation that has been leveled at me several times now by this same group of guys - in this thread and others as he acknowledges in his post - and I think it's important for readers to understand what's really going on here.
> 
> What this guy above is saying is that by me posting visual evidence and/or formal documentation that *counters* certain forum claims about whatever topic is being discussed (see his list) - that that in itself should "arise suspicion" [sic]. That you as a reader/viewer have to "want to believe" in order to accept what you're actually reading/seeing from these sources instead of...get ready for it...
> 
> ...


The great a self lauded Wizard of Internet Oz has spoken.........from behind the screen in the corner. 
( doesn't the story sound familiar) . Seems like a good parallel here.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Smack you’re absolutely right!! It the same group that tries to protect an unsuspecting group of readers from your dogmatic approach to posting. They feel an obligation to the general reading public. You’re right you are a copious poster who has expended much effort collecting a host of factoids. Those with greater knowledge or experience have tried to moderate this constellation of rigid thinking but unfortunately those I could learn from have been chased off this forum all too often to the detriment of this site. The misstatements through the years have created an environment where any of your statements are critically viewed by the lense of whether it’s worth responding and if the statement will cause others harm.
I understand you say you’ve been storms in the past. My understanding is by NOAAs definition you haven’t.
You said you have done ocean passages. By the commonly used definition of being off any continental shelf and outside the range of any reasonable possibility of immediate rescue or support my understanding is you have not ever done even a short ocean passage.
The durability and day to day ease of navigation is different in these settings. You have no personal knowledge of this.
Nor have you cruised in the tropics. The stress of going through a field of coral heads or an uncharted or poorly charted landfall would be novel to you.
Nor have you been in high latitudes nor even above 42N where cold, major fog, freezing rain become concerns when navigating.
I don’t know if you have experience navigating busy harbors like NYC/east river in adverse circumstances. Or dancing through a fishing fleet off Maine or PR at night.
But in the absence of the varied experience many here have resulting in their trying to educate you to the limitations of your view you state they are ganging up on you. I understand I’m a newbie with much to learn. I’m thankful when someone corrects my misperceptions or expands my knowledge. Until you integrate that attitude in your posts.... yes you can expect the same old gang ganging up on you....you poor baby. My heart bleeds.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

All I'll say as a reminder in this very thread is to click the fat down arrow by granche1's name below to see his first post at 91...



granche1 said:


> I am a firm believer in I pad navigation. I am about 5 years and 1/3 of the way into a circumnavigation. I have not turned on my garmin or furuno chartplotters in years. Once I figured out how easy the I pad solution was, instead of buying chart cards for my plotters, I just bought another Ipad and lifeproof case as a back up. I have accurate AIS and easily fetch-able grib data overlayed on my i navx charts while in the middle of the pacific ocean. Lifeproof cases have been perfectly effective at protecting the ipads during all sorts of stormy and inclement conditions. I mount the Ipad at the helm so it gets plenty wet. When I want to go below, I can just take it down there with me and never wonder if we are still on course. It is so easy, redundant, flexible, and affordable that I dont understand why anyone would ever purchase a dedicated chart plotter. I am convinced that soon, only luxury yachts will have a stand alone chart plotter system. My recommendation is to not waste you money on one. Just get an extra Ipad.
> 
> Grant
> 
> ...


Then simply read forward until you reach his post at 118 where he says this...



granche1 said:


> The volatility of this topic is rather comical. I will consider myself thoroughly chastised and try to remain respectful to the authority of my elders from here on out. Seriously though my comment about generational differences was not meant to disparage anyone's half century of sailing experience and you do have to dig pretty hard to take offense to it. What I find interesting about your story Falard is that if the winds got up to 40 or 50 knots I would certainly not be trying to white knuckle my way into some sketchy pass regardless of what electronics I was looking at. I would probably put right back out to sea and consider myself screwed until the conditions improved. That is just my inexperience talking though.
> 
> I come at the world of sailing from a cruising and voyage making mindset and will admit to having no interest in racing. I actually dont know why people want all of this stuff integrated in the first place. It makes no difference if my anemometer, engine data, sailtrim, or anchor rode length is displayed on my navigation devices. Perhaps I dont know what I am missing but I just don't really see the point. I would like to have Chart, AIS, Satellite Imagery, occasionally Weather Data, and possibly Radar, all layer-able on the same device. I am not going to have my sailboat automatically following way-points and making course corrections. Perhaps that is because my boat is 35 years old and was not designed to be able to do that. I generally sail towards waypoints that are several days away. When I am near shore, the most useful tool that I have is an app on my Ipad called Ovital Map. It consists of pre-cached google earth images and shows your position accurately and in real time on the satellite image. This is invaluably helpful when navigating reef passes in the tropics. One of the things it lets me do is verify the accuracy of the charts I am navigating with. You can literally see the coral bomies from the sky (assuming that they are in the same place as they were when the image was taken...) and park your boat between them at night if necessary.
> 
> ...


Who are the posters and what are the posts in between? Then how many times has this very knowledgeable and experienced sailor *(more than most all those posting on here)*, and *especially* on this topic, posted since?

What exactly does it take for a person to have enough "experience" in the "right areas" to not be belittled around here by the same group of guys? That's all I'm asking.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Attitude is not a good thing and the humor is hardly cutting it.

The premise that a mobile device is an alternate to fixed mount marine environment designed... including the user interface is DEBATABLE. This is mostly OPINION not FACT... There are no standard tests or objective standards.

Not everyone has abandoned the old (high tech) for the new mobile devices which are basically a screen and an operating system supported by 3rd party applications.

Many if not most sailors who HAD fixed mount MFDs ARE using mobile devices as a compliment. Few seem to have tossed out their MFDs. We don't know how many are actually choosing to switch from MFDs to mobile devices in the future.

There are limitations noted in previous posts to mobile devices... and there are to fixed mount... the main ones being that it is fixed and the software is limited.

++++

Sharing info and "how to" about apps and wireless data etc is a valuable function... about mobile devices. Or how to protect them from water or mount them or keep the battery charged and so on. This information is useful.

However, it's clear that the present MFD is robust and works well although they are quite expensive because of the number of units sold.

Videos are not facts... they are marketing presentations... marketing needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

As far as speaking from experience goes... there are clearly some very salty sailors on SN and those who are clearly less experienced. I suspect the old salts are smart enough to see a good NEW solution when it appears... such as next gen anchors. Experience coupled with opinion has more weight than inexperience+ enthusiasm+opinion. 

No one is too old to learn and sailing IS a lifelong "school" about getting from here to there safely.

I would urge people not to trust people who declare themselves experts in ANYTHING. And this includes the manufacturers and their sales reps who are likely not people who have been sailing for decades.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Grant made an excellent, concise, germane , factual post with no cut and paste offering excellent support for a point of view in the absence of self aggrandizing and without using any cut and paste. He added something to the conversation. His post allows for a counterpoint in a respectful way.
Just the same as Don. He gave the strongest support for going KISS. One can only have considerable respect for his experience as he and his family wanders around the east coast. It obviously works for him.
People here know they can spend a few hours on the net and abstract everything you have posted. What they get here is opinions and points of view. The experiences people bring are varied but all valid. “Level” of experience has nothing to do with it. It’s the honesty in its presentation. Hopefully their horizon is expended and thinking tuned by this humble, honest sharing. They are generally not elevated by the heat with the absence of light you seem to bring with you.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

I missed a post by granche1 that contained the following quote: "What I find interesting about your story Falard is that if the winds got up to 40 or 50 knots I would certainly not be trying to white knuckle my way into some sketchy pass regardless of what electronics I was looking at. I would probably put right back out to sea and consider myself screwed until the conditions improved. That is just my inexperience talking though."

I'll ignore what appears to be a snarky allusion to the inexperience of a professed circumnavigator (albeit in progress). 

On the face of it, a classic example of Monday morning quarterbacking. He wasn't there: I was, and I was in relatively familiar home waters, making an unusual approach to a narrow passage that I'd navigated several dozen times. I knew enough to monitor my precise location and had my hands full doing that and attending to a mainsail casualty. In retrospect, I handled the situation perfectly--except for not checking out the brand new North sail before the race. That sail was a little the worse for wear at the end of the day and required North to rework the batten retention scheme, replace the lower, full length batten that ended up in Block Island Sound,and replace the shredded telltales. We also did a modification to the reefing.

Among other things that granche1 didn't know was that the wind prediction was for 20+kts and the winds ratcheted up very quickly. I was within 6 or 7 miles from safe harbor and didn't intend to go out to sea under unknown and unpredicted conditions when I know I could minimize the risk with my local knowledge. I might have done things differently if I didn't have the help of an electronic navigation aid to approach and thread a narrow (few hundred yard wide) passage along a string of reefs. Under the circumstances, using a touch screen iPad would have been totally out of the question. That experience cemented my bias toward built-in, hard-wired, networked electronics with buttons on the chartplotter for my primary system, with tablets, iPhones, other handhelds--all of which I now carry--as backup.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> Grant made an excellent, concise, germane , factual post with no cut and paste offering excellent support for a point of view in the absence of self aggrandizing and without using any cut and paste. He added something to the conversation. His post allows for a counterpoint in a respectful way.
> Just the same as Don. He gave the strongest support for going KISS. One can only have considerable respect for his experience as he and his family wanders around the east coast. It obviously works for him.


Absolutely agree, Out. That's why I was trying very hard to engage Grant and learn from him from the very beginning...



smackdaddy said:


> Thanks for the feedback, Grant. It's good to hear from guys like you out there doing it.


How much was he engaged and encouraged to participate between the two posts I've linked above by those of you who claim to be far more experienced and respectful than I?



outbound said:


> People here know they can spend a few hours on the net and abstract everything you have posted. What they get here is opinions and points of view. The experiences people bring are varied but all valid. "Level" of experience has nothing to do with it. It's the honesty in its presentation. Hopefully their horizon is expended and thinking tuned by this humble, honest sharing. They are generally not elevated by the heat with the absence of light you seem to bring with you.


Then guys like granche1 and colemj should be absolute gold around here - *especially to you guys*. If what you're saying above is genuine, you guys should have been fawning all over Grant - trying to learn from him - because he's your respectful peer. Yet he's gone.

Hopefully, this kind of environment can change on SN. I would absolutely love to see more granche1s around here. It would make for a MUCH richer forum.

In the mean time, it would be great for you guys to either stick to the topic or stay out of the thread. Start your own "heat with the absence of light" thread if you'd like. I don't mind. But leave this thread alone so we can openly talk about iPads and navigation.

Please.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

please discuss the ways to get radar on a mobile device.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

SanderO said:


> please discuss the ways to get radar on a mobile device.


Sander, we have discussed it extensively. The best option I know of that's out there right now is this unit...

1st Watch Wireless Radar DRS4W | Marine Radar | Products | FURUNO









I had worked out an arrangement with Furuno to test the unit last summer on our planned trip down into the Bahamas. But circumstances kept us from being able to do that trip. But I have no reason to doubt the capability of the unit - it's Furuno after all.

So, when we move to our next boat, I will likely be adding whatever similar unit Furuno has at that time.

In any case, I'll discuss this unit more in my video - as well as how it works in an iPad/i-device chartplotter setup.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Sander, we have discussed it extensively. The best option I know of that's out there right now is this unit...
> 
> 1st Watch Wireless Radar DRS4W | Marine Radar | Products | FURUNO
> 
> ...


Is this the only option at this date?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Hard to find owner reviews on the First Watch from people who have purchased the unit.

I did find this article in Yachting World.

*The radome itself is self-tuning and, according to Furuno's sales manager, Daniel Conway: "It has been kept as simple as possible as 90-95 per cent of our customers only ever use the auto mode."
*

World's first wifi radar straight to your iPad ? Yachting World


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

This shows the system in progress on on iPad while underway.






I'll do a more thorough walkthrough of the app in my video - as well as show some of the more advanced integrations that have happened since that video was shot 4 years ago. Some pretty cool things going on.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> *The radome itself is self-tuning and, according to Furuno's sales manager, Daniel Conway: "It has been kept as simple as possible as 90-95 per cent of our customers only ever use the auto mode."
> *


AFAIK, all of Furuno's radars are self-tuning. I would have thought the percent of people only ever using the auto mode was higher than 90-95%, since I rarely meet anyone who manually changes the tuning on their radars (of any brand) once installed. The Furuno radars do a very good job in auto, but in certain circumstances (small/weak target, rough seas, heavy rain) we use the manual tuning and filter controls.

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Feel free to interpret the comment from the sales person however you like. I just posted it as it was written in the article. I think pretty much any one on here who has used a RADAR with any frequency can decide for themselves what tuning features are or are not important to them.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Wondering if anyone has ever had trouble with a LAN, WiFi or Bluetooth connection momentarily failing on and off?
Can’t swear to it as I was otherwise occupied but crew said he was having trouble with his devices. We were a couple of hundred miles north of The Bahamas and surrounded by T-storms when this was said. He said neither his Go nor his WiFi hookup between his phone and the boats hotspot was working well. Of interest although the Go had trouble the Globalstar didn’t and was getting 70-100%. The globalstar was connected to the toughpad via WiFi and had no trouble doing email.

Ask as wondering if this has been experienced by others and may impact on wireless radar. 

BTW do tune radar on occasion. Must be an outlier but don’t think so. Often fool with rain setting. It’s a simple slide and messing with it helps when looking at squalls. Sometimes fool with the settings in “offshore “.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

We discussed connectivity earlier (iMux and iPad). I didn't find it to be a problem...especially offshore. In the ICW around a lot of interference we'd get an occasional drop - but iNavX has an alarm mode, and it's very easy and quick to reconnect.

Much of it has to do with the signal strength of your transmitting device.

What device are you using for your "boats hotspot" and what's going through it?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Of course no FIRST HAND experience with the Furuno seen here yet only Infomercials. What does posting picture of a radar screen mean? 

Inquiring minds want to know from your user experience the folllowing:
Can you control the wireless radar settings such as filters from the I Pad?- that’s either a yes or no
Can you overlay the wireless radar over the map- yes or no
Can you using the wireless radar on the I pad pinpoint a vessel...track it showing its speed or course-yes or no
Can you answer any of these easy questions?

I like Over occasionally do manualize the filter clutter settings on my RM digital radar , especially I. Looking at T storms or in rain ( BTW is use it especially in day in rain here on the Chesapeake to identify vessels when their is poor visibility)


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Well, if you can ease up a bit on the antagonism and snark, Chef, I'm happy to answer actual, pertinent questions in red...



chef2sail said:


> Can you control the wireless radar settings such as filters from the I Pad?- that's either a yes or no
> 
> I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "filters" (and what that has to do with the radome itself)...but...
> 
> ...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Well, if you can ease up a bit on the antagonism and snark, Chef, I'm happy to answer actual, pertinent questions in red...


Simple questions that's all no antagonism meant Daddy, just a sailor asking a honest question. 
How about just answering questions without attitude no matter who asks them. You seem fixated on some of us with some conspiracy theory. When you give attitude it's kinda of foolish to expect no attitude . I'm like Jack Webb ....." the facts and only the facts"

All my questions are actually pertinent to me and maybe others , I can't speak for them just myself. 
Can you answer the others? 
You show some radar screen from some radar no one here has including you, with no ships on it for what reason?

My questions really go to the heart of the matter. They are quite simple and involve personal use of radar

Have you actually operated this radar?
Can you actually target the radar on a vessel?

On an MFD you can while it's overlapped on the screen with the chart pinpoint any object and "target it"
Set alarms etc. you don't have to necessarily toggle through screens.

Can you produce a video of someone doing that with this wireless radar? What I mean by that an actual user posting here so those who are interested like me can ask questions. I can see this radar in person at the store, or Internet, read the sales hype. I'm looking for an actual user.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

chef2sail said:


> Of course no FIRST HAND experience with the Furuno seen here yet only Infomercials. What does posting picture of a radar screen mean?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know from your user experience the folllowing:
> Can you control the wireless radar settings such as filters from the I Pad?- that's either a yes or no
> ...


I, too, will tweak the filters (e.g., rain, clutter, gain) and often use the EBL and VRM functions to monitor targets of interest. Radar in the fog is one of my essential aids to protect myself from invisible, moving waterborne objects and to do that I like the option of tweaking.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> You show some radar screen from some radar no one here has including you, with no ships on it for what reason?


Actually, I'd love to see your own radar in use - and how it works. You seem pleased with it. Can you do a video or photos and show us its various functions and how your MFD displays it? That would be a nice comparison.

What is your setup?


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> Can you actually target the radar on a vessel?
> 
> On an MFD you can while it's overlapped on the screen with the chart pinpoint any object and "target it"
> Set alarms etc. you don't have to necessarily toggle through screens.


The Furuno wireless radar does not have ARPA or MARPA functionality, so it cannot target vessels in the sense that I think you are asking about.

MFD's with attached radars can only do this if the radar contains ARPA or MARPA functionality. Not all of them do. The MFD itself has very little to do with this function other than display the data and provide a user interface.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> Feel free to interpret the comment from the sales person however you like. I just posted it as it was written in the article. I think pretty much any one on here who has used a RADAR with any frequency can decide for themselves what tuning features are or are not important to them.


I didn't interpret it in any way - I only expressed surprise at a stated number is all. I didn't dispute or question it. I also didn't imply in any way that people here with a radar couldn't/shouldn't decide for themselves what tuning features are important to them.

You sure like to look for ways to interpret things I say negatively. Too bad that ignore function wasn't working out for you - I think you would be much calmer with it.

Mark


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

colemj said:


> The Furuno wireless radar does not have ARPA or MARPA functionality, so it cannot target vessels in the sense that I think you are asking about.
> 
> MFD's with attached radars can only do this if the radar contains ARPA or MARPA functionality. Not all of them do. The MFD itself has very little to do with this function other than display the data and provide a user interface.
> 
> Mark


Do you know if the iPad First Watch has manual tune and gain controls, or manual clutter controls only. I personally would be happy with spending money on an auto tune RADAR, but would be less happy with a RADAR without manual gain.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

colemj said:


> The Furuno wireless radar does not have ARPA or MARPA functionality, so it cannot target vessels in the sense that I think you are asking about.
> 
> MFD's with attached radars can only do this if the radar contains ARPA or MARPA functionality. Not all of them do. The MFD itself has very little to do with this function other than display the data and provide a user interface.
> 
> Mark


This is part of the thread where I have gained information. I don't know the model number of my Raymarine digital but I can target the individual vessels , acquire them and get displays of the individual bearings, speeds with I line off of them displaying their apparent direction. I may not be using the correct terms here,

When I go to the boat this weekend I look to see which digital model I have.

I wasn't asking the question in relation to the IPad really. Except I wanted to know if the Pad could tweak and use all the functions on the Pad itself.

I already understood it had nothing to do with the MFD . It was a drawback of the First Watch being promoted so strongly by Daddy. On the surface a very cheap,y made unimpressive radar which first manufactured in 2014. It has not been embraced by too many people. One of the first drawbacks was its power cord was not even made with tinned Marine wire according to some posters in other reviews. But I don't know that for a fact as I don't know personally anyone who actually has one.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

Arcb said:


> Do you know if the iPad First Watch has manual tune and gain controls, or manual clutter controls only. I personally would be happy with spending money on an auto tune RADAR, but would be less happy with a RADAR without manual gain.


I don't know where some of these opinions Arcb was responding to are coming from. I have 2 RM chartplotters: one at the helm and one visible from the helm in the companionway. Each of them can independently control the radar functionality, so I can keep an uncluttered nav display on one (or use an overlay), while separately displaying radar on the other and switch back and forth as necessary, such as for tracking a closing target on MARPA or simply setting an EBL to monitor relative bearing. I routinely do this under conditions of poor visibility.

As I have gone on line to check out the First Watch radar, I am unimpressed with the minimal information provided by Furuno and the limited reviews--some of which are the typical magazine marketing blurbs. Others on this thread can offer their opinions, but I haven't seen one based on actual use--let alone experience at sea. I'd also prefer to wait until a substantial experience base is available before drawing conclusions on performance and reliability. Frankly, I'm skeptical that there are not more comments out there on the internet. Were I to consider a wireless for my currently radarless stinkpot, I would not want to be doing beta testing for Furuno.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

fallard said:


> I don't know where some of these opinions Arcb was responding to are coming from. I have 2 RM chartplotters: one at the helm and one visible from the helm in the companionway. Each of them can independently control the radar functionality, so I can keep an uncluttered nav display on one (or use an overlay), while separately displaying radar on the other and switch back and forth as necessary, such as for tracking a closing target on MARPA or simply setting an EBL to monitor relative bearing. I routinely do this under conditions of poor visibility.
> 
> As I have gone on line to check out the First Watch radar, I am unimpressed with the minimal information provided by Furuno and the limited reviews--some of which are the typical magazine marketing blurbs. Others on this thread can offer their opinions, but I haven't seen one based on actual use--let alone experience at sea. I'd also prefer to wait until a substantial experience base is available before drawing conclusions on performance and reliability. Frankly, I'm skeptical that there are not more comments out there on the internet. Were I to consider a wireless for my currently radarless stinkpot, I would not want to be doing beta testing for Furuno.


Just personal preference Fallard. To me gain could be described as asking my wife to keep the kids quiet so I can hear a phone call. Or, I could turn the gain way up to see an approaching snow squall. Gain on a RADAR is basically a volume control. Tuning is a bit more complicated.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> I wasn't asking the question in relation to the IPad really. Except I wanted to know if the Pad could tweak and use all the functions on the Pad itself.
> 
> I already understood it had nothing to do with the MFD . It was a drawback of the First Watch being promoted so strongly by Daddy. On the surface a very cheap,y made unimpressive radar which first manufactured in 2014. It has not been embraced by too many people. One of the first drawbacks was its power cord was not even made with tinned Marine wire according to some posters in other reviews. But I don't know that for a fact as I don't know personally anyone who actually has one.


How do you arrive at the conclusion that the First Watch is "very cheap,y made" and is "unimpressive"? And where do you get that the power cord is not made with tinned wire?

Given your dogged insistence on first-hand, lengthy experience with and deep knowledge of the unit for you to believe ANYTHING regarding its quality and performance - why would you repeat this stuff here unless you know for sure? Especially when you don't even know what unit you have on your own boat!

Chef, look, if you are going to insist on facts - then stick with facts. Even criticism should be based in fact. Otherwise it's useless.

I'm happy to answer any legitimate question you have - always - but I'm certainly not going to spend time countering baseless jabs at a technology you're clearly not familiar with.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> Do you know if the iPad First Watch has manual tune and gain controls, or manual clutter controls only. I personally would be happy with spending money on an auto tune RADAR, but would be less happy with a RADAR without manual gain.


I don't know anything about it other than it is wireless and doesn't have ARPA/MARPA functionality. I did just download the simulator app, and it appears that the only manual control is for Rain.

I was surprised to see that it had an easily implemented guard zone feature that warns if targets appear (or disappear) from a user-set sector. It had adjustable echo trails, sector blanking, and a single EBL/VBR, but no true/relative mode. multiple VBR/EBL, or other common features on some radars.

It seems like a basic radar/app, and probably how a lot of people use their existing radars (everyone here excepted, of course). The interface is much easier to use than other radars I have used. It wouldn't be gear for us, but I don't think it is a toy.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> This is part of the thread where I have gained information. I don't know the model number of my Raymarine digital but I can target the individual vessels , acquire them and get displays of the individual bearings, speeds with I line off of them displaying their apparent direction. I may not be using the correct terms here,
> 
> When I go to the boat this weekend I look to see which digital model I have.
> 
> ...


If you can activate targets and have it track them with course, speed, CPA, etc, then your radar has MARPA capability. Some radars do not. The Furuno wireless does not, so that whole feature can just be dropped in discussions about the unit.

Your sentence about wondering if the ipad can access all of the ipad itself is confusing, but I think you mean can the ipad tweak and use all of the functions of the wireless radar. It appears that it can access and tweak all of the functions that the radar has, but this function set is less broad than some fixed radars. In other words, if this radar was directly connected to a MFD, then the ipad can access all the features of it that the MFD can.

Now I sound like an expert on the Furuno wireless radar. To be clear, my entire experience with it has been the 15 minutes I just spent looking at the specs, the features, and downloading and playing with the simulator app. This is easily done by anyone with basic questions about it. The simulator app is the proof in the pudding and makes everything clear in minutes.

Or you could just watch the videos and datasheets posted on this thread.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

"Tuning" with regards to radar and the auto/manual debate needs to be clarified and differentiated from "Filtering".

Pretty much all current radars AFAIK have automatic tuning. This is a good thing, as most of us probably couldn't properly tune a radar. Tuning involves optimizing beam angles, pulse width and power, return signal timing, blanking periods, main bang suppression, and other highly technical things involved with the radar actually performing to specifications. In the past, expert radar technicians were required to do this, and recreational radars were often very poorly set up by their owners. Now, the radars do this part themselves, with some of them allowing additional tweaks to certain parameters (main bang suppression, for example).

Filtering is different. These filters are generally Gain, Sea State, and Rain (may be named slightly different on different brands). Underneath the hood, these can make minor changes to the actual tuning parameters, but not much. Some work as ensemble changes to a small set of tuning parameters, and none of them permanently change the radar's actual tune itself. These filters generally come in Automatic and Manual modes - where the radar itself sets the "Auto" levels to some general case, and the user can play around with Manual levels to adjust them to best fit certain conditions. But this is different than "auto/manual tuning" of the radar itself. It is more analogous to setting the MFD contrast and brightness levels to be appropriate for different conditions (yes, that is a weak analogy, but it's all I've got).

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I believe one of the customer reviews on Amazon, of the First Watch, posted pictures of the non-tinned wire and poor fuse connection. However, I don't find that any more compelling than a love affair, based solely upon a manufacturers website. 

Best I can tell, the First Watch is half the price of a full 4kw wired unit. That says something about functionality, quality or both. But still, no one has used one for any length of time. No one knows. 

What's most tiring is that any poster who is openly supportive of our self proclaimed celebrity, has their input accepted prima facie. If you object to the celebrity's approach, you must provide cut and paste proof. Ask yourself why our celebrity wants to be seen that way. Yes, some serious experts are not around, as result. 

It's tedious.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

colemj said:


> I don't know anything about it other than it is wireless and doesn't have ARPA/MARPA functionality. I did just download the simulator app, and it appears that the only manual control is for Rain.
> 
> I was surprised to see that it had an easily implemented guard zone feature that warns if targets appear (or disappear) from a user-set sector. It had adjustable echo trails, sector blanking, and a single EBL/VBR, but no true/relative mode. multiple VBR/EBL, or other common features on some radars.
> 
> ...


Thanks, was thinking about asking my wife to download it to her iPhone, but decided against it. I thought that was what I was reading in the manufacturers specs but wasn't sure.

Don't understand why they would omit manual gain control, it should not be a difficult feature to include.

From reading this thread, it seems like there very likely would be a market for a RADAR with no gain control, but, I think it's a simple feature that could have been included.

It seems to me the omission of gain control could scare off a lot of people whether they use it or not. Pretty much any one with a strong background in active sensory equipment is going to go looking for it, not just mariners but; aviators, ex military, law enforcement, audio visual people maybe and recreational sailors that have been using their systems to track weather for years could be scared off by it's omission. In my opinion.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> Now I sound like an expert on the Furuno wireless radar. To be clear, my entire experience with it has been the 15 minutes I just spent looking at the specs, the features, and downloading and playing with the simulator app. This is easily done by anyone with basic questions about it. The simulator app is the proof in the pudding and makes everything clear in minutes.
> 
> Or you could just watch the videos and datasheets posted on this thread.
> 
> Mark


Hey, you put in more time with this than any naysayer I've seen thus far. And you're right, it's not hard at all to get these answers...*if* that's really what one is after. But I don't think that's the point around here.

That app is part of my video - as is its TZ integration - and its operation while a very fat lady with a wet bottom sits on it like you'd have in any coastal cruising situation.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> Hey, you put in more time with this than any naysayer I've seen thus far. And you're right, it's not hard at all to get these answers...*if* that's really what one is after. But I don't think that's the point around here.
> 
> That app is part of my video - as is its TZ integration - and its operation while a very fat lady with a wet bottom sits on it like you'd have in any coastal cruising situation.


I would say he put in more time and effort than you too, since you weren't able to give a straight answer on the tuning and gain controls. It was a pretty simple question.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Not that I'm not grateful, but it is almost 50 pages now, and most of it is just needless bickering and banter. It was a relatively simple question on my part - or so I thought.
I have been experimenting with various off-line mapping apps on my iPad (on land navigation), but I have not downloaded any marine navigation programs yet. I might first try a cheaper app that uses mostly NOAA maps to see how it goes. I have been reading reviews of various navigation apps on line to get a better idea. I still have about 1.5 month till departure.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

krisscross said:


> Not that I'm not grateful, but it is almost 50 pages now, and most of it is just needless bickering and banter. It was a relatively simple question on my part - or so I thought.
> I have been experimenting with various off-line mapping apps on my iPad (on land navigation), but I have not downloaded any marine navigation programs yet. I might first try a cheaper app that uses mostly NOAA maps to see how it goes. I have been reading reviews of various navigation apps on line to get a better idea. I still have about 1.5 month till departure.


Whatever you choose Kriss - I look forward to following your experiences with it.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> I would say he put in more time and effort than you too, since you weren't able to give a straight answer on the tuning and gain controls. It was a pretty simple question.


Keep in mind that my answers could be wrong.

Mark


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I can definitely see how using iPad for land navigation (which is very easy and practically free) would lead (especially younger) sailors to use it for sailing and cruising as well. That way it is an expense that is not just used on boat alone. Important consideration for a lot of people.
I got a really good waterproof case for my iPad - made by Temdan. 40 bucks, but the case is quite well made and really waterproof (did a full immersion water test yesterday) as well as shock proof, and comes with a strap and a stand which makes mounting and carrying quite secure.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> Keep in mind that my answers could be wrong.
> 
> Mark


I just think it's progress that we've gone from people saying that the iPad was not a viable chartplotter solution because it couldn't do radar (2 years after it could) - to now discussing the "quality" of that very radar in relation to high-end units.

capecodda was the first to generally mention it in the other thread back in 2016. And I was following it as well at that time and acknowledged his post.

We've come a long way since then. That's good. It shows why this is a technology space really worth watching.

I (and any thinking sailor) know full well that the First Watch is not the DRS6A-NXT. But I don't want or need the DRS6A-NXT for my cruising....though it has some sweet bells and whistles. However, some around here might not like the high-end purpose-built, marinized, NavNet TZtouch2 display shown in this on-water demo...






Kinda looks like an iPad.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Kinda looks like an iPad.


Hehe. I used one of these displays all summer. It is larger than any iPad (at least the one I used), but it is slower on zooming, etc. Possibly because of the touch tech difference as someone pointed out above.

I was surprised that touch screen navigation was not as bad as I'd thought, and worked well even with a lot of boat motion. It was dry the whole time, so can't speak to that point.

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> Hehe. I used one of these displays all summer. It is larger than any iPad (at least the one I used), but it is slower on zooming, etc. Possibly because of the touch tech difference as someone pointed out above.
> 
> I was surprised that touch screen navigation was not as bad as I'd thought, and worked well even with a lot of boat motion. It was dry the whole time, so can't speak to that point.
> 
> Mark


Yeah, I think the smallest unit they make is 12" - where my iPad2 is 9".

Quick question for you as I work on this video - which includes a walkthrough of SEAiq. I was getting a lot of flickering of the chart as I was using the app (flashing on and off - even when not doing a zoom/pan). Have you seen this issue? I'm wondering if it was either due to the online AIS updating - or if it's something else. You'll see it in the vid. It was weird. Seemed to calm down after using it a while - but always flared up here and there during the test.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

chef2sail said:


> Of course no FIRST HAND experience with the Furuno seen here yet only Infomercials. What does posting picture of a radar screen mean?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know from your user experience the folllowing:
> Can you control the wireless radar settings such as filters from the I Pad?- that's either a yes or no
> ...


Chef, I downloaded the operators manual to try and figure some of this stuff out. The manual appears to agree with Marks assessment with the demo app.

The answers to all your questions appear to be no (based on the operators manual, which is a pretty good source).

There is a Rain clutter control, but Sea clutter, gain and tuning are automatic only. Rain clutter is for removing rain clutter, not for detecting squalls and storms. For detecting storm cells you want manual gain, or to a lesser (probably much lesser with a small digital unit) degree manual tune.

If this link works, it should give you the manual. If not, I'll try to link it later.

OME36360A_DRS4W.pdf


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> The answers to all your questions appear to be no (based on the operators manual, which is a pretty good source).


Arc - there seem to be some semantics going on here (filtering vs. tuning, etc), but your response above is not quite right.

My answers to Chef in my post above come from using these various apps - *which use the DRS4W Radar Sensor* (as outlined in the user manual you've mentioned linked here).

For example, looking at the only manual I can find for the DRS4DNXT sensor (installation), it doesn't list "filters" anywhere either (though it does list ARPA). And even the operator manual for the NavNet TZTL12F MFD doesn't use the word "filter" when discussing things like Sea clutter, gain and tuning - etc. Those are listed as "adjustments". The only "filters" I can find on that MFD are radar interference reduction and rez boost. So I think the terms are pretty important here if we're going to make any sense of this stuff while insisting on "the facts".

My point is, by looking only at the manual for the sensor, you're not really getting the whole picture. As Mark has already said, understanding the apps that *use* the sensor data (whether they be on the iPad or the MFD) is just as critical as understanding the radome/sensor itself. They have to go hand-in-hand.

This seems to have been a disconnect in this conversation for a while now. Hopefully this provides some clarity.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> For example, looking at the only manual I can find for the DRS4DNXT sensor (installation), it doesn't list "filters" anywhere either (though it does list ARPA). And even the operator manual for the NavNet TZTL12F MFD doesn't use the word "filter" when discussing things like Sea clutter, gain and tuning - etc. Those are listed as "adjustments". The only "filters" I can find on that MFD are radar interference reduction and rez boost. So I think the terms are pretty important here if we're going to make any sense of this stuff.


That's my fault - I introduced the term "filter" for lack of a better word at hand. It probably isn't correct terminology, and "adjustment" may be better. Interference rejection, etc really are filters in the correct sense.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> Yeah, I think the smallest unit they make is 12" - where my iPad2 is 9".
> 
> Quick question for you as I work on this video - which includes a walkthrough of SEAiq. I was getting a lot of flickering of the chart as I was using the app (flashing on and off - even when not doing a zoom/pan). Have you seen this issue? I'm wondering if it was either due to the online AIS updating - or if it's something else. You'll see it in the vid. It was weird. Seemed to calm down after using it a while - but always flared up here and there during the test.


No, haven't seen that. We have an old version of the app, and old iPads, so maybe something there?

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> That's my fault - I introduced the term "filter" for lack of a better word at hand. It probably isn't correct terminology, and "adjustment" may be better. Interference rejection, etc really are filters in the correct sense.
> 
> Mark


Actually, the word "filter" was from Chef's questions above which I answered earlier and which arc just quoted.



> Can you control the wireless radar settings such as filters from the I Pad?


And I mentioned to Chef when trying to answer those questions of his that the term was a bit fuzzy. Personally, I don't really care, but if people are going to get aggro about details and facts, then the details and facts need to be right across the board.

I'll try the SEAiq walkthrough again. I'm doing it on an iPad Air. We'll see.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> Arc - there seem to be some semantics going on here (filtering vs. tuning, etc), but your response above is not quite right.
> 
> My answers to Chef in my post above come from using these various apps - *which use the DRS4W Radar Sensor* (as outlined in the user manual you've mentioned linked here).
> 
> ...


No not really. You told Chef, in red that system included adjustments for tuning, rain, brilliance.

I was naturally a little skeptical to read that these units had manual tuning, so I looked into it and I remain quite unconvinced that these systems offer manual tuning.

It's possible you meant adjustment for rain and brilliance, but tuning refers to a very specific control offered on some RADARs where one fine tunes the frequency of the magnetron to sharpen image quality. This is different from gain where the presentation on the display is adjusted by the operator to increase or decrease the amount of information displayed.

This isn't semantics, tuning is a real and specific function that is associated with RADAR operation. Automatic tuning of the magnetron is a very common feature on RADARs. It would not be a deal breaker for me, I much prefer automatic tuning compared to years ago when you actually had to tune CRT RADARs every time they fired up.

If you have evidence that there is a manual tune function for the First Watch systems magnetron from the iPad then just show us something where it says so. You did after all put your answer in red.

If you really meant adjustment for rain clutter, that's fine too.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> No not really. You told Chef, in red that system included adjustments for tuning, rain, brilliance.
> 
> I was naturally a little skeptical to read that these units had manual tuning, so I looked into it and I remain quite unconvinced that these systems offer manual tuning.
> 
> ...


To be clear - this is *exactly* what I said:



> I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "filters" (and what that has to do with the radome itself)...but...
> 
> Yes. You can control many aspects of the visual readout from the First Watch radome signal with the iPad via their display app including tuning, rain settings, echo colors, brilliance, etc..


Now, within the app's settings, you have this item for "Tune Initialize"...










And this item to monitor tuning parameters...










So, Chef's question didn't ask about "manual tuning", and in my answer I didn't claim that this unit offered "manual tuning" - in the way you're talking about it anyway. Although there IS an Auto/Manual setting for rain (which Mark described earlier). Beyond that I simply listed a few of the other adjustments you can make manually via the interface, all of which are accurate. Call them whatever you'd like.

So - that's what was asked and what was answered - nothing more. And I think we're back into semantics.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Semantics? You knew what Chef was asking. He wanted to know if he as an operator could tune the First Watch RADAR. The answer is no. NO. He can't. The system does not offer manual gain or tune controls.

Rain clutter only.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> Semantics? You knew what Chef was asking. He wanted to know if he as an operator could tune the First Watch RADAR. The answer is no. NO. He can't. The system does not offer manual gain or tune controls.
> 
> Rain clutter only.


No arc - I didn't know what Chef was asking which is precisely why I said what I said when answering the question he directed at me.

If, as you say now, "He wanted to know if he as an operator could tune the First Watch RADAR" - he should have stated that instead of this...



> Can you control the wireless radar settings such as filters from the I Pad?- that's either a yes or no


Your answer above to his question (and your own) is not even a "yes or no".

And if he (and you) wanted to know exactly what was manual vs auto in those settings and in the app, that detail should have been included in the above two questions as well. Why should I have to guess what you guys mean? You guys would hammer me either way...as you are doing now.

So, I answered the question asked, accurately, as best I could. Beyond that, you guys need to figure these things out yourselves if you're going to continue to throw attitude and pretzel logic with every post.

It's good to see that you at least are looking through the manual. That's a start. You really ought to try the app as well if you're going to understand this technology more fully.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> No arc - I didn't know what Chef was asking which is precisely why I said what I said when answering the question he directed at me.
> 
> If, as you say now, "He wanted to know if he as an operator could tune the First Watch RADAR" - he should have stated that instead of this...
> 
> ...


Understand the technology? I'm not learning the meaning of terms like ARPA and tuning on the fly from internet forums and YouTube. I don't know who you think you are fooling.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

G'night children




.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

I looked for the First Watch manual on Furuno.com and all I could find was a brochure that is a few years old and is only a few pages. OTOH, you can find a 200+ page operators manual for my 8 yr old RM MFDs that includes a 30 page section on using the radar--with as 5 page subsection on radar TUNING for HD scanners (like mine). If anyone on this thread cares to make a serious comparison of the First Watch with fully functional recreational radars, he/she might check out https://raymarine.app.box.com/s/0ka25bb7n2c4em51aeag/folder/1355235770 for a reference to a legacy MFD with radar functionality.

A comparison on paper is only worth so much, but it would be a start if only there were serious documentation available on the First Watch. I just haven't seen it yet.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

fallard - I provided a link to the 36-page DRS4W operator's manual above in post 493.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> fallard - I provided a link to the 36-page DRS4W operator's manual above in post 493.


Missed that. It didn't take long to check it out though. First Watch is not a serious radar, IMHO, but it would be better than none. If you haven't tuned a radar you might not realize what you are missing.

Still wonder why it there isn't more info on the Furuno site.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Arcb said:


> Semantics? You knew what Chef was asking. He wanted to know if he as an operator could tune the First Watch RADAR. The answer is no. NO. He can't. The system does not offer manual gain or tune controls.
> 
> Rain clutter only.


Exactly right


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> No arc - I didn't know what Chef was asking which is precisely why I said what I said when answering the question he directed at me.
> 
> If, as you say now, "He wanted to know if he as an operator could tune the First Watch RADAR" - he should have stated that instead of this...
> 
> ...


I would venture to say that your only radar expérience May have been the one you owned on the Hunter . That's apparent as you try and challenge others and myself on verbiage.

Those "oldsters like me probably have had the old analog radars and UNDERSTOOD perfectly well what it meant to "tune and de clutter the radar " with manual adjustments. Those who read what I understood knew that filtering out extraneous interference helped improve the image.

Those "tuning or filtering" needs are not as necessary anymore as there are major advances and the digital radars of today are light years better than the old analog one which I first learned on. To those who used the old ones you really had to learn and practice on them as well as learn and practice how to "tune" them.

An amateur like I am when it comes to radar use s it more frequently and feels more comfortable today because of these advances. However I can adjust my digital radar from my MFD I was merely asking if this was possible with the I pad interaction.

Smacky stop making this some personal vendetta. There are others like Over, Cole, AC who have been able to answer most my questions with good solid personal knowledge through experience I don't have in this area or discuss this so we all can learn. When you really don't know something about a subject why not just be humble and not post on it. It really gets in the way of the rest of us communicating and learning which is why many of us seek other sailors with greater knowledge on subjects.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

.........I can cut and paste a łittle once in a while though I don't like to. 
This was a post from some who bought the First Watch you are schilling for
He has ACTUAL pictures of the not tinned wire as well as a micky mouse fuse set up for its power cord.

https://www.amazon.com/Furuno-DRS4W-Watch-Wireless-Radar/dp/B00Q598HQY


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> There are others like Over, *Cole*, AC who have been able to answer most my questions with good solid personal knowledge through experience I don't have in this area or discuss this so we all can learn. When you really don't know something about a subject why not just be humble and not post on it. It really gets in the way of the rest of us communicating and learning which is why many of us seek other sailors with greater knowledge on subjects.


What??? All I've done is endlessly edit my posts, deleting their original content and changing it to wiggle out of uncomfortable questioning of them. How dare you accuse me of contributing useful stuff 

"Humble" is a strange word to throw about from someone who doesn't admit their own mistakes.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> .........I can cut and paste a łittle once in a while though I don't like to.
> This was a post from some who bought the First Watch you are schilling for
> He has ACTUAL pictures of the not tinned wire as well as a micky mouse fuse set up for its power cord.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Furuno-DRS4W-Watch-Wireless-Radar/dp/B00Q598HQY


Actually, those review were much more positive than how they were represented earlier in this thread.

I agree that that fuse holder is asking for trouble in a wet environment. Is it to be installed in such, or is it inside the radome or inside the boat? Makes a big difference. For example, inside most every radome is a bunch of lightly protected and non-waterproof electrical and electronic stuff (look inside yours and you will be apoplectic). Inside most boats will be found the same. Both are just fine in their environments (within reason). But I would not have that fuse anywhere between the inside of the radome and a dry, controlled area inside the boat. I would also change the holder from a glass automotive fuse to something a bit more reliable regardless.

The non-tinned wire is a yawner. Basically, only the US is hung up so much about that. Most everything coming from other countries do not have tinned wire (and they use funny colors too!). This includes very good and beloved gear. Probably gear on your boat that you either don't know about or are conveniently forgetting. It certainly exists if you have a European built boat. Non-tinned wire properly terminated, protected, and secured is a non-issue. I'm more concerned about proper size than tinning.

Mark


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

colemj said:


> What??? All I've done is endlessly edit my posts, deleting their original content and changing it to wiggle out of uncomfortable questioning of them. How dare you accuse me of contributing useful stuff
> 
> "Humble" is a strange word to throw about from someone who doesn't admit their own mistakes.
> 
> Mark


Yes in spite of your transgressions and failure to understand that most sailors are not or want to be cruisers, I have learned a few things From you.

Any lack of my admission of my own mistakes ( not sure which mistake or group of them you are referring to..🤣) I doubt I have ever referred or thought of myself as humble🌪😴😴😴🌪😜


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

The automation has been good to some degree. Look at how the RM and simrad devices for recreational use have advanced from analogue to digital to color digital to Doppler digital. They now incorporate WiFi as standard. My radar is a 2013 RM. It uses more juice so often leave it on stand by and/or timed sweeps. Still it does MARPA and is fully tunable without jumping through hoops. 
Radar is a skill. A friend got me to learn by having me have only the radar screen up and access to paper charts while going coastal for a week. Yes the cp screen was up down below but he prevented me from seeing it. You got to translate in your brain how things look on radar and are distorted as you are seeing them from an angle to how they look on a chart and how they look in visual reality. If you’re lucky enough to have someone do this exercises with you you’d by amazed how much you’re looking at on a radar and not seeing. I still suck at radar as my use isn’t frequent enough to keep the subtleties of this skill set in tune 
From what you people are saying the Furuno ain’t worth the bucks when they and so many others offer really excellent devices for a relatively small jump in cost.
From the little I understand the other WiFi enabled radars will only “speak” to a cp of the same brand. Is this true? If so that alone is a major strike against going iPad alone. Both on passage, in traffic, in fog, in the dark and in so many settings radar helps keep you from earning your sergeant stripes


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> Actually, those review were much more positive than how they were represented earlier in this thread.
> 
> I agree that that fuse holder is asking for trouble in a wet environment. Is it to be installed in such, or is it inside the radome or inside the boat? Makes a big difference. For example, inside most every radome is a bunch of lightly protected and non-waterproof electrical and electronic stuff (look inside yours and you will be apoplectic). Inside most boats will be found the same. Both are just fine in their environments (within reason). But I would not have that fuse anywhere between the inside of the radome and a dry, controlled area inside the boat. I would also change the holder from a glass automotive fuse to something a bit more reliable regardless.
> 
> ...


The end with the wire and fuse is the panel/power end - which is hopefully pretty dry on most boats. The 3-pin plug goes up to the radome and is adequately protected.










Could it be done "better". Sure. I suppose. You could buy your own cable and do it yourself.

But as you say, it's just not really an issue. I figured these guys with all the knowledge and expertise would know that.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Aw come on........you are schilling for a very basic risky dink radar here. You can’t even admit that it’s not really something sailors should buy. 
If it were the bees knees there would be many people buying it.....yet you can even find one on here who has tried it so back to the first hand knowledge criteria....none really exists so we’re left with your infomercials. It also can’t be used with an MFD. 

Come on Furuno uses tinned wire and top of the line applications in its other radars. Point that it’s ok to cheapen it is a non point. Have you both even put your hands on one and co pared it to a ,real “ full function radar? 

One of the MAJOR points on using the MFD for some who posted was the radar issue. If one of the major companies was producing a wireless radar at the same level and quality of their current ones , and it could be used to “ adjust / tune or whatever words you need to use” to tweak the automatic filters that would take out this argument or radar point. Maybe the companies are working on a robust model, I don’t know.

Many of us use radar. The modern radar has come a long way. There are many good combo deals with an MFD where you can buy the “package” at a good price at about $2000.

Smacky before you recommend or go schilling the virtues of this radar take stock here. The concept of a well made full function wireless radar is good. This only reason you support this one is its the only one made which fits into the point your are trying to prove. You don’t seem to care or even willing to admit that this model is not what should be recommended. Radar for some can be very important and can be a great safety device. Fog, busy harbors, rainstorms, ...being able to use a radar which has capabilities which really track other vessels can be one important. Finding fixed objects like oil rigs or the shore not to run into is a small use of a radar which you have in your experience. 

Ask Over, Sander , Ar what’s its like to be out in pea soup fog. I wouldn’t just want to see that their other other boats around moving. I wouldn’t want just too see them on the radar....I want their course. This radar appears to be a niche....not a substantial competitor to the big boys digital radar units. Please stop suggesting people try this radar by constantly posting the infomercial video or screenshot. Besides it’s kind of a conflict if they are offering one to you for free as you have stated.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Personal attack removed- Jeff_H SailNet Moderator


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

BAck to the personal stuff again Daddy. Just like the old days👍. Not going to engage you except to point out when you do it. 

The First watch radar you Schill for is an inferior piece of equipment. For those who haven’t turned off yet or if your new don’t follow Smacks recommendation. Spend a couple hundred dollars more . Get a real radar by Furuno, Garmin, Raymarine etc. just remember he doesn’t even have this radar. 

I can tell you in a tough weather situation I don’t want pseudo radar. I will look up our model of RM digital radar which was inexpensive but has served us well when I am down on the boat Saturday. 

Starting tomorrow our sailing season resumes. We get to spend quality time with the wind and our second home Haleakula. We get to gain experience, turn on our MFD , hang out with other sailors . 

We get to do more than type about sailing in front of a computer screen as we resume living our dream. After all that’s what it’s about for many of us. There are the sailors and there are the electronics sailors. Many do not needs lots of fancy electronics interconnectedcwuth IMUx and technobabble. Our MFD and IPADs are aids to navigation , not the primary focus. 

Hopefully I eee a good number of the “Chesapeake posse” out there enjoying themselves tomorrow.and hs weekend. Looks like our first real day this spring


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Yup, this is heading down the same exact rat hole. To write hundreds of words of pushback, which try to include "I don't care" is ridiculous. One cares, if they take the time to go back and bold and accentuate a critical comment. It's clearly confrontational to call out a group of SN members and declare they don't like new ideas. That's opinion. He may not care what others use as technology, but he absolutely cares that he is seen as right. 

There is little to zero new information here anymore, close it down.

It's also preposterous to think that any newbie is going to sort through a thread of this size to learn anything.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

chef2sail said:


> Come on Furuno uses tinned wire and top of the line applications in its other radars.


Hmm. It has been awhile since I installed it, but I remember our Furuno 4kW using untinned wire. And European color scheme. Do you know for sure that they use tinned?

Again, this tinned/untinned debate is silly, and those worrying about it are uninformed. Tinned wire is mostly a US thing, and there is nothing inherently wrong with untinned wire. I agree that tinned wire has the _potential_ to be less troublesome years down the road, but both need to be properly terminated, protected, and supported. When done, they are identical in practice. Most European boats use untinned wire.

Correctly sizing wiring is far more important than tinned wiring. In almost every case, it is unknowledgeable DIY's that give untinned wire a bad reputation. Tinned wire only saves them from themselves for a short time.

Mark


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

This has gone on long enough. Basic question is how much money do you (can you) blow on electronic AIDS to navigation.
Although multiple posters have given multiple reasons why CPs offer advantages and in spite of Smackie living in an alternative reality with alternative facts CPs offer advantages.
Screens are bigger. Screens are brighter and at night can be dimmed to a degree that night vision isn’t lost. This is simple physics. Even SD can’t dance with this fact.
There are still MFDs that take button/toggle inputting. This is an advantage when it’s cold and wet.
It is easier to interface with the current generation of smart APs.
You have the opportunity to use more functional and better radar without employing a separate device to see it.
Reliability and support maybe better for those without IT sophistication.

Now everyone here accepts you can run a boat without MFDs. Just about everyone accepted this fact from the very first post. The intransigence has been acceptance that many would miss their MFDs and with very good reasons. Many new boats are still spec’d with MFDs. This is being done by young technology sophisticated individuals so the old, late adapter argument holds no water. The reasons are listed above. Are these reasons relevant to you? Is it worth the money to you? Still a thoughtful sailor would be wise to make use of both formats if economics doesn’t preclude it.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Been a while since I checked this thread, but I can't read the ridiculous number of pages since then for a simple topic. So all I was interested in is:

Has anyone "won" yet??


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Don you did. You have a nav system that works for you. You da man.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

outbound said:


> This has gone on long enough. Basic question is how much money do you (can you) blow on electronic AIDS to navigation.
> Although multiple posters have given multiple reasons why CPs offer advantages and in spite of Smackie living in an alternative reality with alternative facts CPs offer advantages.
> Screens are bigger. Screens are brighter and at night can be dimmed to a degree that night vision isn't lost. This is simple physics. Even SD can't dance with this fact.
> There are still MFDs that take button/toggle inputting. This is an advantage when it's cold and wet.
> ...


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

We're talking expensive kit and technology that is leaping ahead. Most sailors simply don't go out, nor can afford to go out and upgrade as they might their smart phone.

I am almost overwhelmed by electronics capabilities these days. And one reason is that the equipment I am using.... old and very old vintage is working perfectly for me and provides tremendous information and situational awareness that I don't have with paper charts and eyeball / manual navigation.

Radar is a power hog and as we almost always sail in good visibility the radar get used little. But when we need it... it is a great benefit. MARPA is a terrific feature. I don't use it much. I prefer to set up guard zones w/ alarms. Alarm goes off and I need to probably change course or hail the target and arrange to avoid a collision. Not all alarms represent a potential collision.

If I decide for any number of reasons to upgrade/replace my nav equipment I will be faced with new equipment which has way more capability and features than I probably need... with the exception of radar in the cockpit on my "portable" Zeus T7 or a replacement. Cabling is an issue for me. It may mean a pole on the stern and a deck gland under the dodger on the coach roof. I could then remove the mast mounted hard wired radar. As I am not thrilled with touch screens, tablets are not the way I would go.. I would also consider a new AIS and another deck gland for the AIS to get that onto the Zeus. I don't need Speed, Wind or Depth on the Zeus... I prefer the stand alone separate cockpit displays.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I learned some interesting to me tablet navigation stuff over the last couple of days. I have had a marine pilot buddy of mine on my couch drinking my beer and the topic of navigation on tablets came up. Marine pilots are top tier navigators around here, unlimited masters driving half a dozen different ships every week.

Apparently, many pilots are now equipped with iPad pros they can carry with them onto unfamiliar ships so they do not have to rely on unfamiliar navigation equipment on unfamiliar bridges. Niche situation, because these ships do still have their installed electronics for the crew, but still interesting.

My understanding is they are not using RADAR over lays, however, they do have electronic charts and AIS. Any way, for the techy types who may or may not be wondering what apps the pros are using on their iPads, it seems like at least some are using iPad Pros running Transas Pilot Pro.

Transas - Pilot PRO


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> I learned some interesting to me tablet navigation stuff over the last couple of days. I have had a marine pilot buddy of mine on my couch drinking my beer and the topic of navigation on tablets came up. Marine pilots are top tier navigators around here, unlimited masters driving half a dozen different ships every week.
> 
> Apparently, many pilots are now equipped with iPad pros they can carry with them onto unfamiliar ships so they do not have to rely on unfamiliar navigation equipment on unfamiliar bridges. Niche situation, because these ships do still have their installed electronics for the crew, but still interesting.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your post, Arc. I think it shows why ongoing threads like this are important.

I learned the same thing - after colemj mentioned SEAiq and I started looking into it. There is an app called SEAiQ Pilot:

Home | SEAiq Pilot

It supports the S-63, S-57, iENC, and BSB/KAP chart formats and is also used world-wide. Here it is in use on an iPad by a pilot taking a ship into the Haiphong port...






It does look to me like Transas (I'd not heard of it) is a more full featured app according to its promo video such as those cool live port/starboard clearance indicators...






But, to your friend's point, *these apps are on iPads* and being commonly used by the very best professionals. And as you can see from the Transas Pilot PRO app description...



> The Pilot PRO operates on iPad utilizing the AIS Class A or 3rd party NMEA sensors via Wi-Fi, built-in or external Bluetooth GPS for backup positioning purposes.


...it's just like my own solution I've been talking about for a while now.

When you think about the reasons behind and incredibly high-stakes for pilots in the first place, and where those needs and stakes occur, and why accuracy and reliability is so important - you really understand the level of very informed trust being placed in these solutions.

Then when you place a typical recreational sailboat driver/poster from SN into that same set of navigating parameters, it really puts all the non-stop criticism of the iPad/tablet solution around here in perspective. You just can't take most of that criticism seriously.

In fact, this is one of the reasons I said what I said above. Where are reading sailors going to put their trust in evaluating this stuff? Personally, I tend to look toward professional mariners and even recreational sailors who *actually* know and use this stuff. That's where informed and constructive information comes from.

PS - Now that I know that iSailor (another app I looked at early on but wasn't too impressed with) is also made by Transas, it might deserve another look. It's good to learn, eh?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Well, its important to note they arent using iPads in isolation. The iPads are linked to external portable sensors they carry in their brief cases and for RADAR, they are using the ships high end installed, full size ARPAs.

I know I have seen pilots using toughbooks as well, but the ipad pros do have the edge on portability. Portability is important to pilots because they have to climb off the rolling deck of a pilot boat and up a 20 ft rope ladder at the start and end of every shift. It is a bit of a niche situation.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Wow that transas sounds amazing!!!
Great idea.

Unfortunately there remains a disconnect. I’ve seen no one dismiss iPad navigation. We all use it. That’s been said from the beginning. Unfortunately the failure to accept its current limitations ( which I think will cease to exist in the future) remains.

This is an issue for the recreational sailor. I bought my radar and nav suite in 2013. In 2014 new devices at all levels were offered at the same or less money with greater capabilities. This continues in so many aspects of tech. Be it cars, solar, HVAC, material science- you name it. 

S and A both speak to this. If I was re-upping or spec-ing a nav suite now I be hard pressed as what to do. First inclination would be B&G or simrad suite with an NKE AP until I saw the bill. Second inclination would be a HD color Doppler radar with its own screen and key inputs (depth, wind, speed etc.) on small dedicated screens and several IPads while holding off for the next generation of MFDs as long as I could. Tough decision. Currently not a problem as don’t have the money honey and as said if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. Still can see it as a problem for others.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Arcb said:


> Apparently, many pilots are now equipped with iPad pros they can carry with them onto unfamiliar ships so they do not have to rely on unfamiliar navigation equipment on unfamiliar bridges. Niche situation, because these ships do still have their installed electronics for the crew, but still interesting.
> 
> Transas - Pilot PRO


Likewise in aviation Ipads are standard in most cockpits and especially with contract pilots. You can pre-plan a trip and have all your data, waypoints and other information at your fingertips always. IPADs are used because they are the most reliable compared to Android tablets, to the point where most approved software does not come in an android form. The nice thing about an IPAD is it is cheap relatively and for a under $200/year you can keep everything current in a small portable package. You still can't legally navigate using the IPAD in aviation it is just a reference for information and charts. I always relied on the planes navigation as primary and kept paper charts and approach plates as backup.

If you think boat navionics are expensive stay away from plane ownership. To upgrade an avionics package of a small plane cost the purchase price of a used 30 foot boat. For the cost of upgrading a turbine powered aircraft you could have a 40 foot bluewater boat.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

I think the most interesting and pertinent point to this is


Arcb said:


> many pilots are now equipped with iPad pros they can carry with them onto unfamiliar ships *so they do not have to rely on unfamiliar navigation equipment on unfamiliar bridges*.


When you strip away all of the sturm und drang (and dreck) that has permeated this thread, the above is the only important point: we each use what we are most comfortable with, and we each get the most out of the comfortable technology because we know how to use it. Chef likes his MFD and his radar set up; Smack likes Ipads and apps. Neither of them can be wrong because it is all personal preference; we might as well be arguing that yellow is a better color than red. Chef, you may think that the radar Smack is describing is a piece of crap, and based on your standards and preferences, I don't doubt it. But it may be perfect for Smack because it can be used with an Ipad, and he's willing to sacrifice some things you can't do without because it gives him the main things he wants.

I'm not sure some here would be happy with my electronics set up as it is cheap and relatively primitive, but it works fine for me. Hey, it took me about a year to learn how to use my handheld Garmin GPS. And I still don't know how to use all of the features in my Lowrance chartplotter after three summers (I still can't figure out how to get tidal information on it). But I am comfortable with it now, and because of that, I know I will strongly resist changing it out for any reason. We tend to defend our own decisions and preferences, often beyond the point of reason.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

outbound said:


> Don you did. You have a nav system that works for you. You da man.


Well if that is all that takes after over 500 posts on this thread there be a lot of "losers".


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

More bells and whistles now of course but reading the posts in this thread took me back to when I started in the CGAUX and the old guys were pissy about LORAN being phased out. The tone is about the same.

Please, all of you to whom it applies, step down a little on the sarcasm and undercurrents of snark. The latter really isn't being done all that well.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

mstern said:


> I think the most interesting and pertinent point to this is
> 
> When you strip away all of the sturm und drang (and dreck) that has permeated this thread, the above is the only important point: we each use what we are most comfortable with, and we each get the most out of the comfortable technology because we know how to use it. Chef likes his MFD and his radar set up; Smack likes Ipads and apps. Neither of them can be wrong because it is all personal preference; we might as well be arguing that yellow is a better color than red. Chef, you may think that the radar Smack is describing is a piece of crap, and based on your standards and preferences, I don't doubt it. But it may be perfect for Smack because it can be used with an Ipad, and he's willing to sacrifice some things you can't do without because it gives him the main things he wants.
> 
> I'm not sure some here would be happy with my electronics set up as it is cheap and relatively primitive, but it works fine for me. Hey, it took me about a year to learn how to use my handheld Garmin GPS. And I still don't know how to use all of the features in my Lowrance chartplotter after three summers (I still can't figure out how to get tidal information on it). But I am comfortable with it now, and because of that, I know I will strongly resist changing it out for any reason. We tend to defend our own decisions and preferences, often beyond the point of reason.


Stern, this is a great post. And I think you've nailed it. Despite how many here have tried to repeatedly frame my side of the discussion of this solution as a "zero sum game" or disingenuous "shilling" for products, etc. - I said this very clearly all the way back in post 47...



smackdaddy said:


> I want to be very clear as to when the iPad solution makes sense and when it might not...
> 
> First, I don't think there is much of an argument that iPads/Tablets are incredible back-up solutions to whatever chartplotter you currently have at your helm. That's a no-brainer. The question really becomes pertinent when it's time for you to *replace/upgrade that chartplotter at the helm with something better*.
> 
> ...


So, for some here, all of this is purely a mental/hypothetical exercise - which as you say is strongly dictated by preference of what they already have because most are not at this point of seriously considering a replacement/upgrade. For us, and others in this thread, it was a *real decision point* we had to deal with. And I chose to go to the extreme of this spectrum, choosing ONLY the i-device solution, and living with the possible good or bad outcomes of that choice. Since then, I've been talking about and showing examples of that choice and the outcomes...along with a few others...knowing full-well there are very few of us out there who have chosen this route.

So, as you say, it is not a zero-sum-game. It never has been. At least not on my side. It's just been about learning the ins and outs of this technology and keeping the facts as straight as possible so that others can do the same.

Sincerely,

SturmDrangy


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

jephotog said:


> Likewise in aviation Ipads are standard in most cockpits and especially with contract pilots. You can pre-plan a trip and have all your data, waypoints and other information at your fingertips always. IPADs are used because they are the most reliable compared to Android tablets, to the point where most approved software does not come in an android form. The nice thing about an IPAD is it is cheap relatively and for a under $200/year you can keep everything current in a small portable package. You still can't legally navigate using the IPAD in aviation it is just a reference for information and charts. I always relied on the planes navigation as primary and kept paper charts and approach plates as backup.
> 
> If you think boat navionics are expensive stay away from plane ownership. To upgrade an avionics package of a small plane cost the purchase price of a used 30 foot boat. For the cost of upgrading a turbine powered aircraft you could have a 40 foot bluewater boat.


I remember a few years ago when iPad was pretty much the only game in town, but it seems to me the competition is starting to catch up. Ive been using my personal Android tablet as a navigation aid and I personally havent observed any serious issues wwith reliability, especially given that my Tab E was only about $200.

However, I also work in the transportation industry (non pleasure craft related) and my entire working group got rid of our computers in favour of cell phones and Windows based tablets. I have only been using my Windows based HP Elite 2 in the field now for a few months, but so far it has been excellent.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

SanderO said:


> Radar is a power hog


You must have an old one. New ones use little power, and the solid state ones use very little.

Mark


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

Arcb said:


> My understanding is they are not using RADAR over lays, however, they do have electronic charts and AIS. Any way, for the techy types who may or may not be wondering what apps the pros are using on their iPads, it seems like at least some are using iPad Pros running Transas Pilot Pro.
> 
> Transas - Pilot PRO


I don't know about professional piloting, but do pilots normally use radar, or is that a navigator's job? I kind of have this mental idea of pilots being for local knowledge and rules, but not actually navigating or steering the ship outside of providing the local knowledge. Is it different than that?

Mark


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

colemj said:


> You must have an old one. New ones use little power, and the solid state ones use very little.
> 
> Mark


Mark - how do you determine consumption from the manuals? I see the listings for the power supplies of the Furuno units...

DRS4D-NXT
12-24 VDC: 2.5-1.3 A

DRS4W
12-24 VDC: 2.1-1.0 A

Which I assume means that the DRS4W is a lower draw than the NXT. I'm asking because our old JRC WAS a power hog when transmitting. I think it drew about 3+ amps if I recall correctly (base consumption was listed in their manual at 30 watts and they recommended a connection that could supply *at least* 3.5A).

So I'm assuming that by the above numbers the DRS4W would draw a max of 2.1A? Is that what those numbers mean?

I'm completely out of my element when it comes to electricity. Always have been. I just know what I'm shooting for in an overall amp-hour budget. And that was another reason I was interested in replacing the old JRC.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

colemj said:


> I don't know about professional piloting, but do pilots normally use radar, or is that a navigator's job? I kind of have this mental idea of pilots being for local knowledge and rules, but not actually navigating or steering the ship outside of providing the local knowledge. Is it different than that?
> 
> Mark


I would say you are correct. I didnt mean to imply the pilot completely takes over navigation. On a difficult passage on a ship, lets say my backyard, the St Lawrence in fog or snow, you might have a pilot providing local knowledge, a navigator on the RADAR/ECDIS, a wheelsman driving, a look out looking out the window or on the bow with a radio and the Captain keeping an eye on everything and making sure every one is doing their part. So the navigation team might be in the neighbourhood of 5 persons each doing their part.

However, the St Lawrence/Great Lakes represents a really big complex pilotage area, so if you have a ship from the far east or something that is accustomed to offshore navigation (turn on auto pilot and go make a sandwich) the pilot may be required to use the RADAR as well. For example, one may have a whole list of parallel index lines they want to program into the RADAR prior to a tricky channel.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

colemj said:


> You must have an old one. New ones use little power, and the solid state ones use very little.
> 
> Mark


By technology standards yes OLD... new in 2004


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Arcb said:


> I remember a few years ago when iPad weas pretty much the only game in town, but it seems to me the competition is starting to catch up. Ive been using my personal Android tablet as a navigation aid and I personally havent observed any serious issues wwith reliability, especially given that my Tab E was only about $200.
> 
> However, I also work in the transportation industry (non pleasure craft related) and my entire working group got rid of our computers in favour of cell phones and Windows based tablets. I have only been using my Windows based HP Elite 2 in the field now for a few months, but so far it has been excellent.


Great post. Finally someone else reminds us that Windows tablets can be a powerful option, and that Andriod tablets are also very viable.

Much of this discussion should refer to "tablets" rather than iPads. As someone who has had two iPads, three Windows tablets, and two Android tablets, I can say that iPad has lost virtually all of of its lead. The only compelling reason to have one is if you're totally attached to an app that's iOS only.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

TakeFive said:


> Great post. Finally someone else reminds us that Windows tablets can be a powerful option, and that Andriod tablets are also very viable.
> 
> Much of this discussion should refer to "tablets" rather than iPads. As someone who has had two iPads, three Windows tablets, and two Android tablets, I can say that iPad has lost virtually all of of its lead. The only compelling reason to have one is if you're totally attached to an app that's iOS only.


As I mentioned above, I would be interested in Windows/Android solutions being offered that compare in capability/functionality with the iPad stuff. I don't think the point here is Apple vs. Windows vs. Android. It's more about what bundle of capabilities you get with each that makes the difference.

BTW - I started out as a staunch Windows guy as an ex-architect because all the most powerful CAD/3D stuff was there. I built several small render farms for my early companies. I moved to Mac around 2007 or 2008 and haven't really looked back. As a designer/software guy - I have a great appreciation for what they do and how they do it. And I have been blown away - seriously - by the longevity and durability of their products. So I guess wall come at this stuff from different angles...back to stern's point above.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Mark - how do you determine consumption from the manuals? I see the listings for the power supplies of the Furuno units...
> 
> DRS4D-NXT
> 12-24 VDC: 2.5-1.3 A
> ...


FWIW, my Rm HD Digital radar (2010 vintage) draws 25W on standby, as clearly stated in the users manual. That would be 2.1A at 12V.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

TakeFive said:


> Great post. Finally someone else reminds us that Windows tablets can be a powerful option, and that Andriod tablets are also very viable.
> 
> Much of this discussion should refer to "tablets" rather than iPads. As someone who has had two iPads, three Windows tablets, and two Android tablets, I can say that iPad has lost virtually all of of its lead. The only compelling reason to have one is if you're totally attached to an app that's iOS only.


Ya, I really like the higher end windows tablets. The one I have is more like a laptop than a cell phone, but with a portable tablet sized package. It seems like all 3 operating systems have good potential.

Its like the Dodge vs GM vs Ford thing. There probably is no right answer, but some people feel really passionate about whatever vehicle they happen to have. But mine has On Star...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I just downloaded and played with the Transas iSailor app. It's cool and has TONS of chart options - but it would be one hell of an expensive app. They charge for every single thing you need.

I'll include a brief walkthrough in the video - but it's not on my list of good cost-to-value apps.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

smackdaddy said:


> I just downloaded and played with the Transas iSailor app. It's cool and has TONS of chart options - but it would be one hell of an expensive app. They charge for every single thing you need.
> 
> I'll include a brief walkthrough in the video - but it's not on my list of good cost-to-value apps.


I am not surprised at the cost. It definitely didnt look like a cheap set up when he was showing it to me. iPad Pro, Transas, External GPS antenna, Class A AIS, portable fibre optic gyro RoT sensor. It was a really sweet set up.

It might be what the recreational setups of the future look like though. It was funny this conversation was going on here because I didnt bring it up to him.

It was out of the blue, he was like dude, check this out :nerd


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Arcb said:


> I am not surprised at the cost. It definitely didnt look like a cheap set up when he was showing it to me. iPad Pro, Transas, External GPS antenna, Class A AIS, portable fibre optic gyro RoT sensor. It was a really sweet set up.
> 
> It might be what the recreational setups of the future look like though. It was funny this conversation was going on here because I didnt bring it up to him.
> 
> It was out of the blue, he was like dude, check this out :nerd


Hey - that's what I said 2 years ago here on SN! Tell him it might not go so well if he tries it here.

Heh-heh.

I wasn't talking about the extra equipment - I was just talking about the in-App purchases. Every single chart costs between $9 and $90 - with most of them being in the $35 range. Then if you want to add NMEA you have to pay for each and every feature - 5 of them for a total of $43. And for AIS you'll add 3 features for a total of $36.

THEN you start paying for the equipment in your list to start feeding that data. All these features in iNavX (except for the non-NOAA-raster charts) are free - with the same end-result.

Here is a review of iSailor on an Android tablet while underway...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Holy cow! In researching for the GeekZone video I'm putting together I found another new piece of kit for this i-device solution that's a bit mindblowing. I'll wager it will take quite a bit of nay out of the saying.

Even *I'M* learning a lot here.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I went with Aqua Map for now. That will get me started with very little money and help me make better choices in the future. Thank you all for your input. We are leaving from New Orleans area in early June.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

FWIW, I'm prepping my boat for launch in a week. I updated all my NOAA charts at home and synchronized my home computer with the SD card that use on the tablet for OpenCPN. Unfortunately, in addition to updating the charts, my sync app also took all the settings for my home computer installation and overwrote my boat tablet settings. So I had to go down to the boat and redo all the settings. After about 5 minutes of tweaking, I had everything restored and working perfectly. All my Raymarine instruments come into the Windows tablet via Wifi, the GPS and AIS receiver come in via Bluetooth, my .gpx routes in OpenCPN control the autopilot in track mode, and OpenCPN plugins convert apparent wind to true and put it back on the SeaTalk network for display on my wind transducer (if I don't want to use my paddlewheel). In short, everything shows up on my tablet and/or my instrument console, using a 100% free program with 100% free NOAA charts (both raster and vector).

If you have some modest geek skills, OpenCPN is extremely powerful on a Windows tablet (which cost me $250). It's also available for Android, though I don't have nearly as much experience with that version as I do on a Windows tablet.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> .....After about 5 minutes of tweaking, I had everything restored and working perfectly......
> 
> If you have some modest geek skills, OpenCPN is extremely powerful......


I agree on both accounts. Not only must you have those modest skills, but you must like to use them. I at least had those skills at one point, but realized I like doing other things more. I've never had a nav app on IOS need a single bit of tweaking, even to get it over to other devices on the same ID. That's for me. Others want modest geek time and that's cool.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> I agree on both accounts. Not only must you have those modest skills, but you must like to use them. I at least had those skills at one point, but realized I like doing other things more. I've never had a nav app on IOS need a single bit of tweaking, even to get it over to other devices on the same ID. That's for me. Others want modest geek time and that's cool.


You're sort of taking what I said out of context. Five minutes of tweaking had my tablet communicating with (and controlling) every instrument on my boat. Some iOS apps might do that too, but you'll have an equal amount of configuration to get it work.

If all you want is a chartplotter that shows where your boat is, like the vast majority of phone/tablet apps, OpenCPN is not any more difficult. Plus you can update your charts as often as you want for free (in the US).

I use phone apps too, especially Garmin Bluecharts, which is the one I always go back to after trying others (including Navionics). I like its interface, and the way it can load the exact same databases of routes, waypoints, and tracks that I use in OpenCPN and my Garmin Oregon. (I keep them synced offline on Google Drive, so all the devices can access them.)

It's good that there are multiple choices, unless you're a Bluecharts fan (like me), in which case you now have one less choice thanks to Garmin's regrettable decision to discontinue it.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> You're sort of taking what I said out of context. ......


Sorry, didn't mean to. I related to your modest geek skill comment, when thinking back on when I first loaded OpenCpn. It's been years, so the experience may be easier now. Although, I had to figure out lots of settings to get my external gps to talk to OpenCpn and figuring out how to get charts was not intuitive. From the looks of their website screen shots, it appears the user interface has improved.

I'm sure I'll give it a shot again. However, the world of IOS apps still seems to be ton more user friendly. Limited in customization, in some cases, as a result. That's the trade off.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

GeorgeB said:


> In the spirit of upcoming Halloween...
> 
> Is invoking Smack's name three times, akin to conjuring up Beetle-juice? Let's try it!
> 
> ...





smackdaddy said:


> Holy cow! In researching for the GeekZone video I'm putting together I found another new piece of kit for this i-device solution that's a bit mindblowing. I'll wager it will take quite a bit of nay out of the saying.
> 
> Even *I'M* learning a lot here.


It seems like Smackdaddy did finish his video on this topic, so to complete this part of the thread for him: 




Mark


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I did use my iPad as a navigation backup during my trip to Panama. Came in handy a couple of times: when we lost our primary chart plotter due to insane rain event, and when it turned out that Navionics chip for Caribbean Sea we had for chart plotter isn’t working. All in all I preferred the plotter hands down but the backup unit was truly necessary. The plotter came back after several hours, when we got a chance to dry it out and clean contacts. After that we sealed the nav station really well.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

krisscross said:


> All in all I preferred the plotter hands down but the backup unit was truly necessary.


For sure its nice not having all your eggs in one basket with one device or one OS. 
Few weeks ago I had to dodge a Thunderstorm. There was a narrow, un marked rocky channel that cut about 2 or 3 miles off my run to the anchorage.

I zoomed in on my Garmin to discover the charts gave absolutely no detail on the channel, it just showed a rock garden. I fired up my Cmaps on my cell phone and it gave a very nicely detailed route through the rocks. I took the channel and made it safely into the cove with a good half hour to spare before the Tstorm hit. I also had paper charts showing a route through, but with no practical way to measure the XTE on paper charts, it was nice having a couple of plotters to chose from.


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## colemj (Jul 10, 2003)

What chart plotter was this? Most of them are sealed and waterproof, and meant to be mounted outside in the elements. Strange that yours was effected by water.

Mark


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

It was an older Raymarine unit.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

IPX? at birth but not forever


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

I think it was their old 300 unit. At least 15 years old.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Used to be Decca was the goto. Limited personal experience (only one passage).Then in '68 plotted the MidAtlantic Ridge with the first non military Sat Nav.Then Loran and Loran C was supreme for offshore fishing Then a very expensive GPS that confused satellites over the Arctic and sometimes told me I was in the southern hemisphere Every time ,the handheld radio was although not accurate, was at least dependable. Then came my experience with GPS with plotter. Gee, that took the nervous out of navigation Bet a guy could be stupid and still succeed. By the time I swallowed the anchor I was entertained by AIS and DSC . Now with interconnectivity we will ask 'Alexa, where are we and make the coffee, eh. Can only assume more change in the future but the hand on the helm should not become obsolete.


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