# Boat wire: is SAE tinned "good enough"?



## novic (Jun 4, 2014)

Had a great weekend at the Toronto boat show. Certainly lots of big fancy boats to step aboard and dream about. More importantly as a newer boat owner, I got to meet lots of local businesses in the industry and start planning ahead for future projects. Like any good boat-related event, I also got to thoroughly empty my bank account...

I'm having a bit of an issue with one of my larger purchases: several hundred feet of "marine wire" ranging from 1/0 to 14 gauge. This was advertised as Ancor product that was priced at roughly 40-50% off local retail pricing. What I ended up getting in the box is SAE wire labelled "C.S. Wire & Cable" rated at 80deg and 50V. I freely admit I'm a bit of stickler for details, but in my mind this isn't quite the same as AWG wire rated at 105deg and 600V. 

After noticing this, I called up the retailer today and was assured that the wire I bought was manufactured by Ancor but is older stock. I was also told that 105deg wire is very new and difficult to source in Canada.

I'm being given the option of either returning the wire for a full refund or paying an additional cost to exchange it for newer wire if they are able to source it. Complicating this, is a 4 hour return trip to the store or paying shipping charges. Given I got a great price on the wire, should I just go ahead and stop fretting the details?

Thanks for your help!


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Everything you ever wanted to know about boat cable :

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/006/ul.1426.1986.pdf

Note that it does refer to an SAE standard for 50V boat cable, SAEJ1127.

So it IS possible that what you have is boat cable. See page 17 of the standard. It may be labelled with the SAE three letter code, and the temperature rating.

What does the label say, exactly?


----------



## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

Sounds like you got ripped off. If SAE indicates it is acceptable to auto manufacturers ... um ... that's setting the bar desperately low. I cannot think of any product with lower standards and specs than an automobile.


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

aloof said:


> Sounds like you got ripped off. If SAE indicates it is acceptable to auto manufacturers ... um ... that's setting the bar desperately low. I cannot think of any product with lower standards and specs than an automobile.


As your signature suggests, don't let facts get in the way.


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

novic said:


> Had a great weekend at the Toronto boat show. Certainly lots of big fancy boats to step aboard and dream about. More importantly as a newer boat owner, I got to meet lots of local businesses in the industry and start planning ahead for future projects. Like any good boat-related event, I also got to thoroughly empty my bank account...
> 
> I'm having a bit of an issue with one of my larger purchases: several hundred feet of "marine wire" ranging from 1/0 to 14 gauge. This was advertised as Ancor product that was priced at roughly 40-50% off local retail pricing. What I ended up getting in the box is SAE wire labelled "C.S. Wire & Cable" rated at 80deg and 50V. I freely admit I'm a bit of stickler for details, but in my mind this isn't quite the same as AWG wire rated at 105deg and 600V.
> 
> ...


#1 You are being lied to. 105C UL Marine wire has been around in excess of 25 years. Hard to get my arse.

#2 Ancor does not make wire, they brand wire...

Return it, the guy seems a bit snakey.. If you paid for 105C BC5W2 UL1426 wire that is what you should get.


----------



## CS Cruiser (Dec 5, 2011)

Exactly what Maine sail says, and also you may be using this for only 12V applications, cannot be used for any 120v or 240v wiring on your boat. Better to stick with 105c rated conductors as will be good also if you run thru engine compartment. 
In the end best to have 105c-600v rated wiring.....


----------



## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Yep... as Mainesail and others have suggested you got ripped off... simple online search reveals:

_*GPT Automotive Hook Up Wire

GPT Wire
Volts: 50V
Temperature: 80ºC

GPT Wire Insulation
Polyvinylchloride Insulation

GPT Wire Conductor
Stranded Bare Copper

GPT Wire Applications

For use in general circuit wiring according to SAE J-1128. It is also used in wiring harnesses in passenger cars and light trucks, agricultural tractors, construction, locomotive and off-the-road vehicles. Intended for use at 50 volts or less in surface vehicle electrical systems.*_


----------



## pcmm (Jan 31, 2014)

novic said:


> I'm having a bit of an issue with one of my larger purchases: several hundred feet of "marine wire" ranging from 1/0 to 14 gauge. This was advertised as Ancor product that was priced at roughly 40-50% off local retail pricing. What I ended up getting in the box is SAE wire labelled "C.S. Wire & Cable" rated at 80deg and 50V. I freely admit I'm a bit of stickler for details, but in my mind this isn't quite the same as AWG wire rated at 105deg and 600V.
> 
> After noticing this, I called up the retailer today and was assured that the wire I bought was manufactured by Ancor but is older stock. I was also told that 105deg wire is very new and difficult to source in Canada.


The retailer is feeding you a pack of lies. I'm based Toronto and fully rewired my boat 15 years ago with all marine Ancor wire 105c rated. Its in every real chandlery very easy to find!. Sounds like the retailer was trying to dump cheap wire at premium prices. Pending the outcome you should let us know who they are so we can avoid them

Also when you eventually go to sell a good surveyor will notice that you used incorrect wire and should note it in their report as an item to remedy (I.E. lower selling price)


----------



## novic (Jun 4, 2014)

Hi Everyone,
Thanks for all the quick replies. I had a suspicion this would be the consensus. Interestingly, a search on the address found on some of the packaging for "C.S. wire and cable" seems to historically be associated with Marinco/Ancor but a quick call to them confirms that they have no information about the wire I have in hand.

Drats. Looks like I'm going to have to take a road trip down for a refund. Although I've never shopped with this store before, I was really hoping to establish a good relationship with them, as they came highly recommended to me as a local supplier of general marine goods but also specific original parts/replacements for my boat. In hindsight, although they genuinely came across as very nice and honest folks at the show, i have a hard time believing they genuinely mistook this old (?ancient) wiring as equivalent to what they are advertising.

In any event, if anyone else in the Toronto area is/was looking into a great deal on Ancor marine wire, buyer beware and please feel free to PM me so I can give you the details of my transaction.

Thank you again for everyone's help.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Something that can explain it all:

SAE wire gauges and AWG wire gauges (which Ancor usually uses) are NOT THE SAME. An SAE wire size is normally 1-2 sizes under the corresponding AWG size, as I recall, so if you order AWG-10 wire, and you get "SAE-10" you've really gotten AWG-14, a very much smaller, thinner, CHEAPER wire.

The merchant is basically paying by the pound for copper, and when they deliver a size or two lighter? Right, they have saved lots of money. AND CHEATED YOU.

This could be actionable fraud (mail fraud, wire fraud, etc.) in the US. It would also be delivering non-conforming goods, which would both release you from any obligation to accept them. 

Could be some sort of relabeling mix-up, sure. But CHECK THE WIRE on a gauge (or use a wire stripper, see if it strips at the right size) and if you were sent non-confirming goods, tell the vendor you're on to the game. They can send a pre-paid pickup slip, or they can explain it to the fraud investigators.

There's just too much of this ***t going on. It IS simply criminal, and we all need to roll up our sleeves and pitch in to stop it. If you used a credit card, non-conforming goods is a perfect reason to call the card company and reject the charges.


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

First off, I would forward Maine Sail's answer to this person.
Next I would insist that this person pay the return shipping. I doubt the boat show organizers would take too kindly to one of their booth holders blatantly ripping off customers, and you might want to point this out to the guy, in case he has intentions of getting another booth at a boat show.
I certainly would not just let him get away with this sort of rip off.


----------



## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

I think I know the vendor, and i won't do business with them, simply because they have gone out of their way to NOT earn my business. Condescension, disdain and rudeness seem to be ingrained in the corporate culture because every person i have ever dealt with at their booth has made me walk away empty handed.


----------



## novic (Jun 4, 2014)

BlJones,
I got your PM but still need a few posts before I can respond. I'll come up with a few posts and will get back to you asap.


----------



## novic (Jun 4, 2014)

Bljones, Capta, Hellosailor and others:

Thanks for the support. It's really reassuring to hear from knowledgeable folks that I'm not going crazy or being super finicky. Although I'm a bit frustrated, I'm not quite ready to flame this local business and throw them under the bus just yet. I'm still waiting to see how this all plays out and will be sure to update this thread at that time. 

Again, for the sake of helping others, please PM me if you wish to know the details and I will get back to you.

cheers,
Novic


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

If they said it was "marine grade" then I would return it and demand they ship the correct grade wire, at no cost to you, or return your money, and send a pick up for the wrong goods. If they don't offer to send FedEx (or some other shipper) to come pick it up then ask that they refund your money (call credit card company and file a complaint as well, as you have a limited time to do this) and allow you to keep the wire. Under no circumstances would I drive it there unless they are reimbursing you for your mileage. This is not "old" wire, just simply the "wrong" wire, I believe this just standard automotive wiring. As Hellosailor has mentioned it is gauged differently, so not only is it the wrong temperature rating it is not the correct gauge.


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> Something that can explain it all:
> 
> SAE wire gauges and AWG wire gauges (which Ancor usually uses) are NOT THE SAME. An SAE wire size is normally 1-2 sizes under the corresponding AWG size, as I recall, so if you order AWG-10 wire, and you get "SAE-10" you've really gotten AWG-14, a very much smaller, thinner, CHEAPER wire.
> 
> ...


A highly useful post! I did not know that SAE gauges are different from AWG gauges. Thank you for pointing this out!

And I agree with your outrage. This could have easily happened to me (see previous sentence) and it is pure and simple fraud. I don't believe for a second that this vendor did not know *exactly* what he/she/it was selling (see the bogus claim "105deg cable just came out"), and they are counting on the relative ignorance of buyers, like yours truly.

Throw the book at'em!


----------



## MastUndSchotbruch (Nov 26, 2010)

novic said:


> Bljones, Capta, Hellosailor and others:
> 
> Thanks for the support. It's really reassuring to hear from knowledgeable folks that I'm not going crazy or being super finicky. Although I'm a bit frustrated, I'm not quite ready to flame this local business and throw them under the bus just yet. I'm still waiting to see how this all plays out and will be sure to update this thread at that time.
> 
> ...


If you don't throw an obvious fraudster under the bus, they will make continue to make money with people that are less cautious than you are.


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

MastUndSchotbruch said:


> If you don't throw an obvious fraudster under the bus, they will make continue to make money with people that are less cautious than you are.


I agree with your sentiment, but I think the company needs to have a chance to show if they will help him or not. Obviously they first started with a brush off technique, but let him get the correct wire or money back before blasting. If he blasts the companies name publicly it may make it harder to get his situation settled.


----------



## VallelyJ (Nov 21, 2008)

At some point, perhaps after your interactions with this company are complete, it would be very helpful to know who they are so others don't end up stepping into the same situation.
JV


----------



## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Based on you owning a CS36T and the vendor being one with 'original replacement parts' I'm thinking their catalog has a bright yellow cover. My experience is similar to BLJones - never comfortable with their customer service and always had the feeling customers are their lowest priority. Fortunately there are other options once you get to know your way around the chandlers. Your best bet is to ask other boaters in your area and on your travels.


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

I agree with the other posters. Both Ancor (distributed by Paynes in Canada) and Vertex (distributed by Vertex and Stright Mckay among others) are 105 deg 600 volt wire and tinned, as is boat cable from ECS. Wire with this spec is available across the country.

If you purchased from Holland Marine I would return it and never deal with them again.


----------



## novic (Jun 4, 2014)

Once again,
I appreciate the support and advice on this forum. It is certainly reassuring to hear that my gut reaction when I inspected my purchase is not unfounded. This is exactly what I was looking for.

Having said that, I would urge restraint in passing judgement until the dust has settled. Please remember that this is my personal account of a transaction for which the retailer has not yet fully responded. 

Yes there is no question that there is a problem here. An item was advertised on sale; I paid for it; I got something else. Don't worry, I've covered my bases. My receipt lists the items paid for and I have a screen grab from the online ad. On the other hand, I'm also willing to consider that this may have been an "honest" mistake. For all I know, some employee didn't know any better. 

Yes, the response I got from this business when I first voiced my concerns, is even more regrettable. Although speculation on my part, I suspect this probably was an attempt to pacify me and make me go away, regardless of what actually caused the mixup. But, as they pointed out, I was calling first thing in the morning after a busy week at the show and they hadn't even had a chance to unpack. At this point they've requested a few days to sort things out and I've agreed.

I'd also like to take some responsibility for this kerfuffle. After all, I did buy these items in person and had every opportunity to inspect the goods and voice concerns before opening my wallet. In addition, I should point out that I purchased many other items at the same time, with which I'm completely satisfied. Furthermore, the fact that these folks spent nearly half an hour providing me with specific and valuable knowledge about how to maintain my boat, certainly influences my overall opinion of them. Finally this chandler was recommended to me by local sailors and judging by the volume of sales, they obviously have many satisfied repeat customers. It is for these reasons that at this time, I am choosing not to crucify this business in a public forum.
Pending final resolution of this situation, I certainly reserve the right to reverse this decision 

I'm sure some of you think that I'm giving these guys way to much benefit of the doubt.However, I like to think that we all make mistakes in life, big and small, sometimes intentional sometimes not. I certainly appreciate when I'm given a chance to make good on my mistakes. I've given these guys an opportunity; let's see how this pans out; and I'll certainly post any developments here. At the same time, I completely agree with those who are stating that we need to inform each other as consumers, which is why I am offering to provide further detailed information to those who are requesting it. 

Phew. I apologize for the long winded response. If you're utterly bored by this post, just wait until this newb starts posting real boating questions....

cheers,
Novic


----------



## VallelyJ (Nov 21, 2008)

If it hasn't been mentioned before, another very important difference between boat wire and auto primary wire is the thickness of the individual strands. Boat wire has much thinner strands. This adds flexibility and reduces the risk of the strands becoming brittle and breaking at bends that get flexed with the movement of the boat.
For what it's worth, Novic, I think you're being way too nice to them. Give them a chance to fix the problem--maybe the guy you talked to on the phone was a recent, bad hire. Otherwise, if they were just making an honest mistake they should have fixed it and not BS'd you. You bear zero (0) responsibility for having been sold junk by people whom you are paying from their presumed expertise and competence. I agree, they ought to pay shipping and apologize.
And if they don't, nobody else here should get sucked into buying from them.
Good luck with it.
JV


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

We really have no idea what the OP received, as he hasn't replied to my question about what the labelling is on the cable EXACTLY.

All we know is that it says SAE on it, and it's 50V, 80C. If any of you had taken the trouble to read the UL1426 specification I linked to, you'd see that it's entirely possible to get UL1426 listed, 50V 80C boat cable with an SAE mark. 

So the implications in some posts are that the only thing that's allowed to be called "boat cable" is sold by Ancor and has a 105C, 600V rating. This is not true. That's one kind of boat cable, the OP probably got a different kind.

The idea that we should castigate the vendor, publicly, without knowing any of the facts about what the original description of the cable was, is unfair.

If the vendor sold it as 105C, 600V boat cable, then clearly it was not as described. If, on the other hand, it was simply described as boat cable, then perhaps the purchaser is partly to blame for not clarifying exactly what kind of cable it was.


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

MarkSF said:


> We really have no idea what the OP received, as he hasn't replied to my question about what the labelling is on the cable EXACTLY.
> 
> All we know is that it says SAE on it, and it's 50V, 80C. If any of you had taken the trouble to read the UL1426 specification I linked to, you'd see that it's entirely possible to get UL1426 listed, 50V 80C boat cable with an SAE mark.
> 
> ...


The problem is he was _told_ or _lead to believe_ he was buying Ancor brand wire.



novic said:


> *This was advertised as Ancor product that was priced at roughly 40-50% off local retail pricing.* What I ended up getting in the box is SAE wire labelled "C.S. Wire & Cable" rated at 80deg and 50V. I freely admit I'm a bit of stickler for details, but in my mind this isn't quite the same as AWG wire rated at 105deg and 600V.


Ancor has always produced a 105C wire with the Ancor brand name on it and it is AWG wire not SAE. Perhaps the vendor bought this wire from the same _factory_ that also makes Ancor wire but that does not make it Ancor BC5W2 105C marine wire. It makes it C.S Wire & Cable 80C SAE wire which is not what he was lead to believe he was buying.

While SAE wire of certain ratings and types are both UL1426 and ABYC qualified selling _C.S. SAE_ wire as _Ancor _is a little disingenuous to say the least. If I am told I am buying a lot of Ancor or other "marine wire", and I have done so, I am expecting to get 105C BC5W2 wire.

Every maker of marine wire I know of such as Ancor, Pacer, Berkshire, Cobra, Kalas, Camco, East Penn etc. all make 105C wire and this is what the industry and electricians use and have been now for years and years...........

To me it is not whether it falls under the UL1426 category but whether he bought Ancor wire, which he was told he was. If it was really Ancor wire it would be 105C....


----------



## novic (Jun 4, 2014)

MarkSF,

the original ad I responded to:

"Ancor Tinned Wire Special,,,about 50 percent savingins, UNBEATABLE!!
ANCOR Marine Grade™ wire is manufactured from tinned copper stranding for maximum protection against corrosion and electrolysis. Ultra flexible (Type 3) stranding resists fatigue due to ibration and flexing.
ANCOR's proprietary premium vinyl insulation stays flexible even in extreme cold and resists salt water, battery acid, oil, gasoline and ultra-violet radiation. Exclusive insulation is rated at 600 volts, 105° C dry and 75° C wet.
Exceeds all UL 1426, US Coast Guard Charterboat (CFR Title 46) and ABYC standards.
All wire pricing is subject so supplies on hand...Shop asap for best selection and PRICE!!
All shipping charges will be actual shipping charges. Pls supply full address for a quote."

the wire jacket labeling on the wire I picked up:

"CS Wire & Cable #12 GPT 80oC 50V SAE J1128 & J378"
"CS Wire & Cable #1/0 SGT 80oC 50V SAE J1127 & J378"

Of some amusement to me is that as of this morning, the online ad has been modified. The sentence starting from "Exclusive" ending with "ABYC standards is now deleted.

sigh...still waiting to hear back from them.


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

novic said:


> MarkSF,
> 
> the original ad I responded to:
> 
> ...


Wow!!!!! And they even edited it........ 

I took a couple of screen shots of today's web page, if you need it..... I have dealt with them in the past and they've generally been okay so give them a chance to make right... Still NOT COOL!!!


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Well, it would seem that you have them bang to rights, so to speak!


----------



## novic (Jun 4, 2014)

Maine,
Thanks for chiming in providing your support. As an aside, I want to say a big thank you for everything you do. Several of your how-to articles had a lot to do with me undertaking some of these electrical projects in the first place. 

On the other hand, inspiring myself from your webpage certainly isn't cheap...let's just say I've spent more than a few boat bucks on Blue Sea and Groco stuff over the last few weeks 

cheers,
Novic


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Well, I guess my first question would be what are you going to use the wire for? Hey, it's just tinned, copper wire - nothing more, nothing less. Those specs are so high that in nearly every instance I seriously doubt that you would even get remotely close to overloading the wire. But, of course, that depends on what you intend to do with the wire. 

Good luck,

Gary


----------



## SVTatia (May 7, 2007)

bljones said:


> I think I know the vendor, and i won't do business with them, simply because they have gone out of their way to NOT earn my business. Condescension, disdain and rudeness seem to be ingrained in the corporate culture because every person i have ever dealt with at their booth has made me walk away empty handed.


+1 on that and I share the exact same feelings.
I can drive longer distances and even pay more than line the pockets of business people who mistreat customers.
Condescending and rude? This is an understatement.


----------



## novic (Jun 4, 2014)

travlineasy,
I hear your point which is also that of the seller. I personally didn't have a great feeling about it, which is why I started this thread. Clearly, others on this forum would feel the same.

As for what the wire is going to be for:

Large gauge for replacing battery parallel connections, battery to main switch, switch to starter, battery to alt and battery to charger and associated grounds.
Small gauge for replacing/consolidating the spaghetti soup in my battery compartment onto bus bars and rewiring some questionable engine wiring.

To be honest, I could probably get away with wiring the whole boat with appropriate gauge speaker wire and I'm sure it would work just fine...for a while. Doesn't mean that I should or want to, especially when I've paid for the right stuff.

cheers,
Novic


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I would say, with the exception of the battery leads, you will not have any problems as long as you own the boat using that wire. Battery leads, of course, really take a beating, therefore, I would use the heaviest gauge, tinned, marine wire I could get my hands on. I dealt with Tinned Marine Wire.com and they had excellent prices and great service. 

Gary


----------



## novic (Jun 4, 2014)

Here's how the story ends:
As the retailer is not able to sell me the proper rated wire, he has agreed to a full refund including shipping charges back to his store 

I feel it is regrettable that despite issuing the refund he reaffirms that "the wire is made by Ancor and comes in Ancor boxes", "ABYC keeps changing the standards, it's impossible to keep up", "Perhaps it's the distributor trying to offload older stock because we're in Canada". These comments will definitely influence any future dealings I may have with this company.

Moving on, does anyone know much about Vertex wire (Thanks Mitiempo)? Their wire seems to have all the right specs and I can buy it right here, in town. Decent prices too, although I'll have to settle for all black and color-code the shrink wrap.

cheers,
Novic


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

When some folks refer to "boat" wire standards and specs...

Exactly who, what, or where does "boat" wire get defined??

"Boat wire has much thinner strands." AFAIK, the strand thickness varies by the wire type, for instance, "Machine wire" meant for wiring up heavy power supplies to industrial machinery is very close to "battery wire" which is to say a much thicker strand than "welding" cables, while almost as flexible. (Not bad for a second choice on battery cable.)

But "boat wire" ? Is really defined someplace?


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Boat wire is defined by meeting the standards of UL 1426. The construction standards, and the tests the wire is subjected to, are detailed in the standard :

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/006/ul.1426.1986.pdf


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

hellosailor said:


> When some folks refer to "boat" wire standards and specs...
> 
> Exactly who, what, or where does "boat" wire get defined??
> 
> ...


He did not buy "boat wire" he bought and paid for Ancor marine wire which is a 105C BC-5W2 UL1426 wire.. He simply did not get what he was sold and got the old bait and switch instead... Simple as that..

Anchor has not made or specified any other wire and it has always been 105C BC-5W2. I had to speak with Marinco/Mastervolt the other day so posed this exact question to them. The answer was that it is, and always has been specified as a 105C dry 75C wet BC-5W2 UL1426 wire....

If you paid for a Fein Multi-Master, yet were sent a Harbor Freight Multi-Tool how would you feel...? How about when you called to complain and were told "_well they both oscillate_"....


----------



## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

novic said:


> Here's how the story ends:
> As the retailer is not able to sell me the proper rated wire, he has agreed to a full refund including shipping charges back to his store
> 
> I feel it is regrettable that despite issuing the refund he reaffirms that "the wire is made by Ancor and comes in Ancor boxes", "ABYC keeps changing the standards, it's impossible to keep up", "Perhaps it's the distributor trying to offload older stock because we're in Canada". These comments will definitely influence any future dealings I may have with this company.
> ...





Maine Sail said:


> He did not buy "boat wire" he bought and paid for Ancor marine wire which is a 105C BC-5W2 UL1426 wire.. He simply did not get what he was sold and got the old bait and switch instead... Simple as that..
> 
> Anchor has not made or specified any other wire and it has always been 105C BC-5W2. I had to speak with Marinco/Mastervolt the other day so posed this exact question to them. The answer was that it is, and always has been specified as a 105C dry 75C wet BC-5W2 UL1426 wire....
> 
> If you paid for a Fein Multi-Master, yet were sent a Harbor Freight Multi-Tool how would you feel...? How about when you called to complain and were told "_well they both oscillate_"....


Maine, how long ago was the last change in ABYC standards as far as it applies to boat wire specs? It looks like the UL standard has not changed since 1987 so that is almost 30 years ago, so "changing too frequently and can't keep up" seems to be a bit absurd to the point of being insulting. 


> "You know boat building is changing so fast, who can keep up? After all they are using that fancy fiberglass stuff. We can''t keep up so we are still building with wood, we may though this year start using concrete I hear that is the up and coming material."


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

miatapaul said:


> Maine, how long ago was the last change in ABYC standards as far as it applies to boat wire specs? It looks like the UL standard has not changed since 1987 so that is almost 30 years ago, so "changing too frequently and can't keep up" seems to be a bit absurd to the point of being insulting.


I don't recall the wire specs portion of E-11 ever changing.... That portion is based on UL....


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Maine-
You misread me. I never said he bought or got anything, I just asked WTF "boat wire" was supposed to be defined as.

And in fact the regulatory definition is ANSI 1426, not UL1426. UL is a private standard, ANSI 1426 reflects the official incorporation of it. A small difference but an equally important one.

Who'd think "boat wire" meant anything except the rusty black stuff on your...(G)....

As to what Ancor has or hasn't made, that's a good point as well. You really think Ancor has a copper foundry, and they draw and anneal and insulate bare copper to really MAKE their own wire?

I'd expect that to be a matter of contracting out, instead of spending what, eight? nine? figures to build a foundry.

Which of course has no bearing on whether something is or isn't "made" by Ancor. Or their contractors.


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

hellosailor said:


> As to what Ancor has or hasn't made, that's a good point as well. You really think Ancor has a copper foundry, and they draw and anneal and insulate bare copper to really MAKE their own wire?
> 
> I'd expect that to be a matter of contracting out, instead of spending what, eight? nine? figures to build a foundry.
> 
> Which of course has no bearing on whether something is or isn't "made" by Ancor. Or their contractors.


If you go back quite early in this thread you'll see that I very succinctly stated that Ancor does not technically make any wire, they spec it and brand it. Their main manufacturer for wire is in PA.... Like many who don't actually make their own products they do _specify_ the wire they brand. That spec has always been the same.


----------



## SVTatia (May 7, 2007)

novic said:


> ...These comments will definitely influence any future dealings I may have with this company....
> 
> Novic


Good on you... take your business elsewhere.



novic said:


> ...Moving on, does anyone know much about Vertex wire (Thanks Mitiempo)? Their wire seems to have all the right specs and I can buy it right here, in town. Decent prices too, although I'll have to settle for all black and color-code the shrink wrap.
> 
> cheers,
> Novic


Novic, try this place. they sell tinned wire as per link below. I only found out about them after I bought all my wires from Greg's Marine, but since then I have bought a lot of things from them. They are not far from you (Mississauga) and they can also deliver.

Tinned MTW Wire | Tin Coated TEW Wire | ElecDirect


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

IO sell Vertex wire daily. Any gauge from 4/0 to 18 awg, all tinned 600 volt 105 deg wire. Totally comparable to Ancor. It is available in any color.

We do not carry any wire that is not 600 volt 105 degree tinned. I don't see why any marine store would.


----------



## VallelyJ (Nov 21, 2008)

Without reading back through every post in this thread, and I'm sorry if it's already been said, but does anybody know what company the original poster is referring to? Many of us seem to agree that the OP is getting ripped off, and have given our best advice to the OP, but it would be good to know who we're talking about. We all need boat wire from time to time and none of us want to have the same problem.
If it's helpful, I've had reasonable luck with Genuinedealz.com. I hope they weren't the (alleged) culprits here.
Who was it?
John V


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> I don't recall the wire specs portion of E-11 ever changing.... That portion is based on UL....


E-11 is "LAW" in Canada.


----------



## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

VallelyJ said:


> Without reading back through every post in this thread, and I'm sorry if it's already been said, but does anybody know what company the original poster is referring to? Many of us seem to agree that the OP is getting ripped off, and have given our best advice to the OP, but it would be good to know who we're talking about. We all need boat wire from time to time and none of us want to have the same problem.
> If it's helpful, I've had reasonable luck with Genuinedealz.com. I hope they weren't the (alleged) culprits here.
> Who was it?
> John V


The OP quoted the advertising copy. Google will find you a web page with the same wording - of course you can't be sure that it's the same company. I hope that it's someone else because I thought these guys were reputable and, the wire in the pictures is actual Anchor wire. Not Genuinedealz.


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

SVTatia said:


> Good on you... take your business elsewhere.
> 
> Novic, try this place. they sell tinned wire as per link below. I only found out about them after I bought all my wires from Greg's Marine, but since then I have bought a lot of things from them. They are not far from you (Mississauga) and they can also deliver.
> 
> Tinned MTW Wire | Tin Coated TEW Wire | ElecDirect


I have been in the marine business in Mississauga for a few decades, never heard of Gregs Marine ... contact, address, website ???


----------



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

boatpoker said:


> E-11 is "LAW" in Canada.


Wow! Not law down here unless it is portions of ABYC that are in the CFR... That said surveyors are flagging everything under the sun these days, and if you want insurance, you comply...


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

E-11 was authorized under Transport Canada TP1332 in 2004 (I think). We are expecting Transport Canada to incorporate all ABYC standards as an "optional" standard later this year.

The long time push to do away with TP1332 and replace it with ABYC has suddenly picked up speed. Authorizing it as an "optional" standard is the first step.

To the OP ...... if you have any problems getting your refund, PM me, I can help.
I'm less than 2klms from that store.


----------



## SVTatia (May 7, 2007)

VallelyJ said:


> Without reading back through every post in this thread, and I'm sorry if it's already been said, but does anybody know what company the original poster is referring to? Many of us seem to agree that the OP is getting ripped off, and have given our best advice to the OP, but it would be good to know who we're talking about. We all need boat wire from time to time and none of us want to have the same problem.
> If it's helpful, I've had reasonable luck with Genuinedealz.com. I hope they weren't the (alleged) culprits here.
> Who was it?
> John V


See post # 9



boatpoker said:


> I have been in the marine business in Mississauga for a few decades, never heard of Gregs Marine ... contact, address, website ???


Its in the U.S.

https://gregsmarinewiresupply.com/Zen/


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

SVTatia said:


> See post # 9
> 
> Its in the U.S.
> 
> https://gregsmarinewiresupply.com/Zen/


Thats a bit of a drive from London ON. to PA for a commodity product thats available everywhere.


----------



## SVTatia (May 7, 2007)

boatpoker said:


> Thats a bit of a drive from London ON. to PA for a commodity product thats available everywhere.


Available everywhere, but at what prices?
No need to drive, they deliver to Ontario as they did it for me...


----------



## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

SVTatia said:


> Available everywhere, but at what prices?
> No need to drive, they deliver to Ontario as they did it for me...


Available at every chandlery in Ontario (except for one  apparently)

With the taxes, duties, brokerage and the Canadian dollar in the toilet there isn't much worth buying in the US these days.


----------



## novic (Jun 4, 2014)

Sorry to resurrect my previous thread.
My previous ordeal is over. The store in question has their (questionable) wire back, I have my money back, they paid shipping: life is good. To those who still wish to know "who", please PM me anytime.

I've since purchased all the small gauge wire I need but still waiting to purchase the large gauge (expensive) battery cable. I'm looking to completely redo all battery/charging/starting circuits, so not a trivial purchase. Unfortunately, the state of our dollar is not helping any.

After much research, I've narrowed it down to 3 options, and I'd appreciate comments from any of the installers/surveyors on this forum:

A) "brand name" AWG fine strand, 105deg, tinned, PVC sheath, ABYC, UL1426: most expensive, available black/red, seems to be the most common stuff for pleasure craft

B) "Shipboard cable" type P, UL1309, IEEE 1580, 125deg, tinned, polyolefin sheath: sold primarily for commercial/coastguard vessels, available only in black, I can get this for 40% cheaper than option A), probably overkill in terms of specs, maybe not readily recognized by next owner/surveyor?

C) "no name" TWT cable AWG fine strand, 105deg, tinned, PVC sheath: available black/red, for all purposes identical to option A) but does _not carry the UL1426 or ABYC certification_ *(this was incorrect, see addendum)*. I can get this for 60% cheaper than option A)

Option A) is available at various chandlers. Option B) and C) are from a wire distributor. The salesperson there states that he sells option B) as mandated by law to commercial vessels/offshore rigs but mainly sells option C) to pleasure craft owners.

Thoughts?

cheers,
Novic

Addendum: The wire in option C) is "TEW" or "tinned TW" cable from ECS. I ended up getting the manufacturing spec sheet from them and it turns out the wire *is UL1426 and BC5W2 certified.*


----------



## CS Cruiser (Dec 5, 2011)

To my knowledge option C, TWT "thin wall tinned" is only rated at 60v. 
Not 600v as option "A" is.


----------



## CS Cruiser (Dec 5, 2011)

Option "A" will meet UL 1426, Option "C" will not a can only be used on 12-24v circuits

Electrical Cables for Boats

UL 1426

1 Scope

1.1 These requirements cover electrical cables for boats. The cables are intended for use in marine pleasure craft and consist of a single insulated conductor without a jacket or of two or more insulated conductors with or without an overall nonmetallic jacket. Each boat cable is rated as follows: 600 V; 60°C (140°F), 75°C (167°F), or 90°C (194°F) wet; and 60°C (140°F), 75°C (167°F), 90°C (194°F), or 105°C (221°F) dry. Boat cable dry-rated 125°C (257°F) or 200°C (392°F) may be investigated. A boat cable so marked has insulation (and jacket if a jacket is used) that is for use where exposed to oil at 60°C (140°F) and lower temperatures. Boat cables employ stranded copper conductors that are 18 - 4/0 AWG for multiple conductors and 16 - 4/0 AWG for single conductors.

1.2 The ampacity of a boat cable shall be as stated in the US Coast Guard regulations Title 33, Chapter I, Parts 183.430 and 183.435 of the CFR.


----------



## novic (Jun 4, 2014)

Hi CS,
Nice to hear from another CS owner!

The TWT cable (option C) is 600V, 105degC, PVC sheathed. 

As an aside, am I allowed to post/link non-sailnet vendors on the forum? 
If I am, I can post the spec-sheet link here. If this wire is reasonable/adequate for my purposes, seems to be a decent deal 

cheers,
Novic


----------



## CS Cruiser (Dec 5, 2011)

Good to,hear it is 600v rated, as many I've seen are stamped 60v for thin wall tinned, I just assumed your TWT might be the same and why it is likely cheaper. 
PM me the specs or post them if you can.


----------



## CS Cruiser (Dec 5, 2011)

NOT UL or ABYC approved
Tinned Copper Conductors - PVC Insulated
Improved high performance cable insulation gives considerable weight savings especially in large wiring harnesses
Hard grade PVC cable insulation offers good resistance to abrasion and cut through
The specification is printed on the outside of the cable insulation
Suitable for temperature from -40°C to +105°C with excursions to 120°C max
Good resistance to petrol, diesel, lubricating oils, diluted acids and moisture
Maximum voltage 60V, suitable for 12v and 24v systems (excluding Hi Tension circuits)
Manufactured in accordance with ISO6722 : 2006 (Class B)
Choice of standard sheath colours /li>
For most harsh environment applications especially where good resistance to corrosion is required

UL & ABYC APPROVED
UL approved tinned marine electrical cable benefits include:
Finely stranded ABYC (type III) tinned copper conductors
Extruded PVC Insulation gives weight savings especially in large wiring harnesses
Boat cable specification is printed on the outside of the cable insulation
Suitable for temperature from -20°C to +105°C dry (+75°C wet)
Good resistance to petrol, diesel, lubricating oils, diluted acids, flame and moisture
Maximum voltage 600V
Suitable for 12v & 24v systems (excluding Hi Tension circuits)
Flat cables compliances: UL Standard 1426, ABYC: E-11.16, USCG: 33 CFR part 183 and NMMA
For most harsh environment applications especially where good resistance to corrosion is


----------



## CS Cruiser (Dec 5, 2011)

PM replied too.


----------



## CS Cruiser (Dec 5, 2011)

This is from Best Boat Wire,

So what is the big deal with UL 1426 Boat Wiring?

UL 1426 Boat Cable is designed to survive the harsh conditions in and around the marine environment including felxible tinned copper stranding and a durable water and chemical resistant insulation.

It's just not worth taking the chance on wiring your boat with inferior wiring and cables that don't meet the standards provided for by today's marine electrical regulations.

Within the boating world there are regarded sources for safety information and "best practices". The American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC), The United States Coast Guard (USCG), and the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) have paved the way for safer marine electrical installations by issuing safety standards and guidelines for manufacturers, service technicians, and boat owners.
In accordance with testing and evaluation over the years, certain desirable characteristics have been isolated for marine battery cable which are crucial to a safe, long lasting electrical installation. When it comes to wire for boats, the decisive standard is the BDFX.GuideInfo for Boat Cable. It pulls together some of the SAE and USCG best practices and product evaluations to create a more complete safety standard with what should be expected from a quality marine cable.

From the BDFX.GuideInfo for Boat Cable
The basic standard used to investigate products in this category is UL 1426, "Electrical Cables for Boats." Cable rated 600 V is investigated to UL 1426 . Cable rated 50 V is investigated to SAE J1127, J1128, or J378b

The UL 1426 "Electrical Cables for Boats" allows the marking of the jacket on UL1426 cable to state UL 1426, or Boat Cable, or BC-5W2 with the UL mark in the legend of the wire. In order for a cable to become listed under UL 1426 it has to undergo numerous tests. This is from the table of contents for UL 1426 and will give you an idea of the testing done by the UL before it gives it's "seal of approval":

PERFORMANCE

Physical Properties of Insulation and Jacket
Conductor Corrosion
Heat-Shock Test
Flexibility Test
Deformation Test
Cold-Bend Test
Vertical Flame Test (Inulated Conductors)
Cable Flame Test (Completed Cable)
VW-1 Flame Test
Relative Permittivity Test
Dielectric Voltage-Withstand Test and Alternatives
Insulation Resistance Test at 60F (15.6C)
Insulation Resistance Test and Elevated Temperature
Now that's an impressive list of testing to make sure that you're getting a quality cable, so keep that in mind next time you see a cable which is UL listed to UL 1426 and carries the marking "Boat Cable" or "BC-5W2" and the UL mark. There are only a few manufacturers of UL listed Boat Cable and their products are of high quality and meet those stringent standards.


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

novic said:


> Sorry to resurrect my previous thread.
> My previous ordeal is over. The store in question has their (questionable) wire back, I have my money back, they paid shipping: life is good. To those who still wish to know "who", please PM me anytime.
> 
> I've since purchased all the small gauge wire I need but still waiting to purchase the large gauge (expensive) battery cable. I'm looking to completely redo all battery/charging/starting circuits, so not a trivial purchase. Unfortunately, the state of our dollar is not helping any.
> ...


Just one point : the code is now for red and yellow for DC primary wire. Black can potentially be confused with a live 3 phase AC wire.

They make a nice two-core red and yellow with a white sheath, gives the wire some extra protection, and makes it easier to route.

This :

Ancor Safety Duplex Wire Cable AWG 16/2 Red/Yellow - Sold By The Foot - Star Marine Depot


----------



## CS Cruiser (Dec 5, 2011)

An update to my previous pm, as you noted in original post option "B" is only available in black.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

OK, Mark. Step away from the keyboard and locate the nearest hard liquor. I think you missed the fact that the OP wants to do some battery/charger/starter primary wiring, and Ancor's wonderful 16/2 duplex cable is terribly unsuited to carrying those loads. Good luck finding any duplex cable suitable for wiring up the batteries to that stuff.

I'd also note that getting a UL certification on *any* product means submitting actual product samples to the UL for testing, and paying something like a $50,000 minimum testing fee, regardless of whether you pass or fail.

So while it is nice to see a UL label, sometimes the absence of one just means that someone didn't want to pay that big fee, which adds to product costs.

In shoreside wiring, wires are often "plenum rated" as suitable for use running them in wiring plenums and ductwork. A key to that is that the insulation will not spread fires through the plenum, and won't give off large amounts of toxic smoke. IIRC any cable or wire that is PVC insulated represents a fire & toxic smoke danger, and I'd prefer to have insulation on the primary cables that wasn't going to do that.

Similarly, a high temperature rating is nice--but less important if your cabling is not running in a hot, tight, engine space for long distances.

Just saying, there's right, wrong, USCG or ABYC mandated for commercial vessels and builders, and then sometimes there's "this is what *I* need".


----------



## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

I think you have missed the fact that the OP stated, in the very first post, that he ordered a selection of wire in sizes down to 14 gauge. Ancor duplex cable is available in gauges up to 6.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Didn't miss that, but what he has/had ordered is a moot point, he's asking now about ordering _battery cables._


----------



## novic (Jun 4, 2014)

All this boat wiring stuff is fascinating  When I rewired our house a few years ago, there really were no options. Legal wire + proper installation = passed inspection. Anything else = fail, fines etc..

Now in the marine world:
Bare legal USCG minimum for pleasure craft = SAE J1127/J1128
Recommended for pleasure craft (aka voluntary) = ABYC/UL 1426
Commercial craft = IEEE, UL 1309, ABS, Lloyds etc...
Military = Mil-spec etc...

Now clearly, the easy answer here is to simply buy the ABYC/UL 1426 stuff and call it a day. But when this cable is priced at nearly three times the cost of what appears to be identical TEW/AWM cable (tinned, type 3 stranding, pvc jacket, 600V, 105deg, AWG), that's a lot of boat bucks for the certification. The curious side of me has to wonder if the UL 1426 stuff is truly built differently in some way or is simply tested and therefore labelled differently...

Having said all that, I am a stickler for labels/specs, this is going to be a labour intensive job and I have no interest in having this academic discussion about my handiwork with the next surveyor/buyer.

So what say you all about the shipboard cable? Clearly built to much higher specs for much more rigorous use and won't give off poisonous HCl fumes to boot when it lights on fire. Has the word "marine" all over it and I figure if it's good enough for the coast guard cutters, it'll probably do ok on my pleasure craft  Yay? Nay? Given it comes only in black, I will have to do some color coded labelling/shrink tubing, but cost will still come in at roughly half the ABYC/UL1426 stuff.


----------



## novic (Jun 4, 2014)

MarkSF,
Thanks for the input and I apologize for any confusion. As HelloSailor has mentioned, I've already bought all the 10/12/14 awg cable i need (went with Ancor yellow/red stuff, price wasn't too painful).

I'm now looking for the 2 to 1/0 awg stuff...

HelloSailor: Perhaps MarkSF, you and I could all get together for a stiff drink. Since I'm from up North here, perhaps some Crown Royal?


----------



## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Here is where I purchased the wire for my windlass. Great prices, excellent quality. Tinned Marine Wire, The power behind it all

Gary


----------



## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

MarkSF said:


> Just one point : the code is now for red and yellow for DC primary wire. Black can potentially be confused with a live 3 phase AC wire.


Yes, it is for new construction. If re-wiring an older boat and not changing every single wire better to stick to red/black. Adding a third color is just confusing the issue.

The above posts, without knowing the brand/supplier, is fairly useless.


----------



## novic (Jun 4, 2014)

Brian has a point.
The "Shipboard" wire that I'm looking at is Draka Bostrig type P

The "TWT" wire I'm looking at is ECS TEW wire


----------



## novic (Jun 4, 2014)

A big thank you to Brian (Mitiempo) for helping me figure things out.

After getting some additional information, I ended up going with option C (see my post #54), as it turns out this wire *is properly rated with UL1426 and BC5W2.
*

The wire is sold by ECS and spec'd online here: TEW Thermoplastic Equipment Wire (Tinned Copper) 600 Volts

The online specs don't mention anything about boat cable/UL1426 or ABYC certification. However, after some additional info provided by Brian, I had them send me the manufacturing spec sheet and it clearly shows that this wire has all the right certs and is labelled as such.

The Gravy: At less than $2.50/foot CDN (that's about $2.00 USD/foot) from my local distributor for 1/0 AWG, this stuff is bloody cheap! And they'll even cut custom lengths.

The irony: This is way cheaper than the questionable wire I initially bought at "boat show pricing" and which got this thread started in the first place.

The conclusion: If you're looking for cheap, properly rated boat cable, give ECS a call. You and your wallet may be pleasantly surprised!

cheers,
Novic


----------



## CS Cruiser (Dec 5, 2011)

Glad it worked out for you.


----------

