# anxiety in buying a boat



## alicia (Nov 9, 2002)

Is it normal to have anxiety attacks in buying a first boat? I''ve made an offer on a catalina 36 that has been accepted and now I am panicking. It''s my first boat (been sailing with a sailing club for 3 years) and I am used to sailing smaller boats (J-30, for the most part). I am hoping I''m not overwhelmed by a 36 foot boat. I am wondering what I am getting into. I love sailing I just hope my family does too. Will this pass??? I want to be excited about this!


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Yes that is normal at least in my experience. I have bought over a dozen boats in my lifetime and everytime there is the moment of doubt when I find myself asking, "What have I done to myself?" While a Catalina 36 is a big boat for a first boat, it is a good boat with a careful survey, sail trial and engine inspection you should be fine. If this is the wrong boat the good news about Catalinas is that they are pretty easy to resell without taking too bad a bath. 

Good luck,
Jeff


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

Casey - Congratulations...nothing like being a boat owner. Is this a new boat or used? What year?

I too have a C36 and I remember when I first went to look at the boat and I thought "oh man?! Is that going to be too big to handle?". I was moving up from an old Watkins 27 and even though that was big for a 27 footer this 36 just seemed huge. But after having the boat for a few weeks, I realized it was no big deal and single hand it all the time.

You will find that the C36 is a pretty good sailing boat, that has a decent sea handling capability, with no real bad manners to speak of.

ps. You will be surprised. Your family might love the boat, just as much as you. Do a lot of destination cruises and set it up for anchoring & relaxing and it turns out to be a very nice "home unit" for the family folks. They will love the room and setup below, it will seem absolutely palatial compared what they might have sailed with you before. Many people really comment on how nice and livable it is on a weekend cruise. Woman and men and landlubbers too.

pss. You should seriously consider joining a local Catalina 36 Fleet or the very least the Catalina 36 International Organization. (www.catalina36.org) Its a great social organization with rendezvous, regatta''s & a great support system of owners, for tips, upgrades, etc that you can rely on when it comes to the C36.


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## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

There''s a technical term for this. It''s called "Buyer''s remorse".

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


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## maestro (May 3, 2002)

I too had anxiety when I bought my first boat 3 years ago. Now I have Bigger Boat Disease.....which I think is worse


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## meolsen (Apr 5, 2003)

Hey! Bigger Boat disease. I have that too. How''d I get it? I guess I caught it when I bought my boat, and now have a good view of all the other boats that I like so much.

Mike


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## gstraub (Sep 25, 2002)

I have a similar problem. Sold our boat 3 years ago before moving and now I can''t make up my mind which boat to buy for fear I''ll pick the wrong one!!!! So.....I''m still not on the water! At least you have the boat!

Gerhard


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## gstraub (Sep 25, 2002)

I have a similar problem. Sold our boat 3 years ago before moving and now I can''t make up my mind which boat to buy for fear I''ll pick the wrong one!!!! So.....I''m still not on the water! At least you have the boat!

Gerhard


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Buy the one that gets you excited and does what you want it to do.


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## alicia (Nov 9, 2002)

Thank you everyone for the thoughts. You are right Jeff, in that if it turns out to be the wrong decision, I can always sell it. The boat is a 2001 loaded. I have not sailed it as it is already out of the water (northeast) so I''ll to buy it without sailing it, but I''m assured it will be fine. My spouse does not know how to sail but tells me he will learn so I''ll be on my own a bit. I am hoping my children, ages 7 & 9 are comfortable and love it. I am hoping to give them great memories. I have until Monday, Oct 27th to back out of the deal but everything is in place and I''m just gonna go for it.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The sail trail is very important to determining whether the deck layout works for you and also in being able to tell if there are engine or instrument problems. 

If there is some physical reason that you can''t do a sail trial (something like ice in the water or the boat is in the back of the yard and a dozen boat would need to be moved to launch her) then you should attempt to escrow funds sufficient to cover an engine rebuild or instrument replacement. I can''t imagine that an experienced and honorable broker would have allowed you to make this deal without a sail trial provision. 

I am assuming that the deal is subject to a survey. If it is not subject to a survey, I cannot strongly enough recommend that you get out of that deal now and if you are interested in that boat renegotiate a proper process that includes a full survey. Again, if the Broker did not insist that you do a survey I would not trust that Broker as far as I can throw him. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## marcb (Oct 10, 2002)

Yesterday I had a deal on a Cal 2-27 fall through. I had put a deposit on it 11 days earlier. I liked the boat but a day after making the purchase agreement I felt uneasy. I started a list of things that needed repair or upgrade. I got pretty anxious about it. Even with my list of repairs though, it seemed like a fair purchase & a good boat for my needs. The boat was hauled & surveyed Monday. In addition to my own list, the surveyor said it needed a new prop shaft & prop due to damage from electrolysis. My revised purchase price was rejected. I was disappointed but the big surprise to me was how relieved I felt. Guess this worked out for the best. Go with your gut feelings.


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## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

Casey1004,

Even without the credentials of some of the posters on this board, I fee very confident in echoing Jeff H''s advice. Do not make this deal on your C36 without a proper survey and sea trial.

You cannot assume anything about the condition of your candidate purchase even with a 2001 boat, so a good survey is important. Even if you weren''t converned about how you will like your choice from a sailing perspective, the sea trial will allow a surveyor to find things you cannot on land.

None of use are born with all the knowledge we need to buy and care for boats, but you seem to be going into this deal without much good support. You didn''t mention a broker, but anyone who would brush off a survey and sea trial as unimportant can''t be trusted, IMHO.

Having said that, my as-yet newbie opinion is that a well found C36 can be a very good boat for its intended use. Since there are so many of them for sale at any one time, you have no reason to feel rushed to buy any particular hull that comes along. There will always be others.

Hope this helps, even if it isn''t what you want to hear.

Cheers,
Duane


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## alicia (Nov 9, 2002)

The boat was surveyed, by an excellent surveyor 6 weeks ago by someone who had put an offer in on the boat. The deal fell through, because the man who wanted to buy the boat had to sell his freedom 28 to buy this boat. The surveyor did both boats... the C36 surveyed beautifully with no issues. The Freedom 28 failed survey because of water damage. I spoke with the owner of the Freedom 28 who wanted to buy the C36 and he is selling me the survey. He also took the boat out for a sea trial and had nothing but great things to say, with one exception. This boat is in-mast mainsail furling and he said the wind picked up suddenly to 25-30 knots and it took 3 people to reef. One of the reasons I went with in-mast furiling was for ease of use so I am wondering if anyone has had experience, good or bad with main furling?

So, the boat has been surveyed and taken to sea trial, just not by me. The surveyor is going to go back to the boat to ensure that no damage has occurred in the last 6 weeks.

I took the catalina 350 out for a sail last year... I know these are two different boat, but I know the C36 is a long held design that should, in theory, work for me.

The boat is out of the water, on stands, mast out. I guess I could insist on a sea trial, but I think the idea of escrowing money is good.


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## DuaneIsing (Jul 10, 2001)

Casey1004, 

Well, that''s a lot more info than we knew before. 

I''m sure there are many who would argue that you should never use someone else''s survey, even from just 6 weeks ago, but I''m not savvy enough to advise you on that point. In any case, it would seem as long as you trust the surveyor, you are taking much less risk than it appeared before. 

All my research to date on in-mast furlers has led me to the conclusion that I would greatly prefer a slab-reefing main. A roach, battens, and the ability to drop sail with minimal risk of jamming has me convinced to avoid in-mast furling. I know there are folks out there that love them, but that''s my take so far. 

Good luck with your purchase and here''s hoping your family loves your new boat. 

Duane


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

I perceive the primary purpose of the sea trial to confirm the proper operation of that equipment which can be tested on land, primarily the engine and instruments such as depthsounder. During 5 or 6 boat buys/sells I have never had a surveyor sea trial the boat as part of the survey. Post survey I have had a mechanic sea trial the boat several times. If you can''t do a sea trial escrow the cost of replcing the untested ewquipment subject to confirmation of normal operation after launching. 

PS - from personal experience also have an engine survey done by an diesel surveyor (not a regular marine surveyor). A sea trial will not identify a condition such as marginal compression.

As a lone voice in the wilderness, I encourage you to think twice about jumping into such a big boat. Not so much as to the risk of your learning experiences, as you seem to have the boat disease, but because of your reference to your family. In any first boat you will have learning experiences (i.e. make mistakes), but in a 15,000 lb. boat those mistakes can be far more scary or painful than in a 5,000 lb. boat. My personal opinion is that within the first two weeks of use one runs a 50% chance of scaring the hell out of the wife or kids such that they will never come back. Not to mention the real risk of hurting someone.
The way people successfully get into a big boat is via a small boat. If you start with a 25'' boat you can handle her more easily, your mistakes will be less visible and more manageable, and you can jump up again in a year, as a more knowledgeable and confident buyer. 
One of the heardest things for a new sailing enthusiast to understand is that not everyone finds the sailing, or the boating experience fun, and the best way to increase the likelyhood of family members adopting, or at least tolerating, sailing is to bring them into it slowly, in very carefully limited and staged expereinces, until everyone is confortable with the program. Beat to windard at 30% on the first day, and someone may never return...Lose the family participation, and your boating pleasure will be greatly limited.

Good luck and welcome to the asylum.


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## e-27 sailor (Oct 1, 2003)

Congratulations on your pending boat purchase. If this process keeps you up at night, causes anxiety attacks, and makes your heart go pitter-patter, I think you''re getting your money''s worth. And I hope that feeling of nervous anticipation lasts for as long as you own this boat. When it starts to fade, start shopping for new equipment to add to your floating fantacy. (I just spent three months research shopping for the perfact hand-held VHF radio). And like the radio I just bought, here''s no such thing as the perfact boat, except for the one you own and admire. So if you''re losing sleep over this boat, you''ve found the right one.


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## alicia (Nov 9, 2002)

Thanks again for the responses. I am beginning to calm down and get excited about it, even though I won''t be in the boat until next summer. I plan to sail with experienced friends for a few weeks while I get used to the boat... then take the kids out.

I am still wondering about the furling main... I''m pretty sure I made the right decision here and I won''t have any problems with it. If it''s not what I want I suppose I can replace with a dutchman system, though at great expense.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I look at in mast furling mainsails as a deal buster. Beyond the obvious performance zapping aspects, my real problem is with the shortened sail lifespan, the poor sail shape in heavy air when sail shape becomes a safety issue, and the high likelihood of a jamb at an inoppoprtune moment. A delivery skipper friend refuses to do an offshore delivery of any boat with inmast furling after having several hiho jambs in heavier going. Have you already gone to survey and how did they handle the sail trial issue? I would keep looking for another boat because changing an in-mast furler to a conventional mainsail is extremely expensive. 

Jeff


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

Don''t disagree with anything Jeff says. But....

With that said, if you were buying a very popular boat (like a C36) with a Roller furling mast you might be able to swap with an owner that has a standard mast. I know this concept flies in the face of what Jeff H. adhere''s to, but there are more and more sailors that own their boats getting older and older. I have heard many times that at this point their sailing is mostly leisurely coastal cruising and on the next boat they wish they had a roller Furling Main. I agree that if going off shore, I''d rather go with the basic set up. But I beleive there is a whole market of sailors out there that would be willing to swap with you.

Join the C36 Sailnet email list and you could ask there.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I respect JeffH''s technical knowledge tremendously, but I often disagree with him  Jeff has a strong bias towards maximal performance in boats and tends to evaluate boats based on the kind of sailing he does most, which may not apply to everybody.

No question that mast roller furling reduces performance, wears the sail, and could be dangerous if the sail jams in mid furl, however you could come up with equal arguments about broken halyards, batten''s that tear the sail of a traditionally hoisted main...etc.

One advantage for you in having a mast furled main is that they are very easy for a single person to furl and unfurl and steer the boat too. If your mate and children are not yet experienced sailors, then this would be a huge advantage for you.

If you are just beginning to gain experience yourself, it might help to have a sail that is less efficient, so that you don''t get caught in cases where you''re overpowered as easily. 

I''ve sailed a mast furling main around the BVI on several occassions and found it to be very easy to work with (though the boat wouldn''t point for crap). My girlfriend rarely got up from the deck and it was easy enough for me to manage all the sails myself (on a 40 foot boat). The only time I had trouble furling it was when I forgot to release the cam cleat before cranking on the winch.

I think if you are conservative and reef early, you shouldn''t have a problem, provided that you''ve done your homework and have read everything you can about this particular furling system.

As far as the other anxiety, I went through the same thing early this year when I bought my first boat. For me it was the difference between the boat being someone else''s maintenance responsibility and it being mine... did I bite off more than I could chew?

Now that I''ve had it for several months, I''m really begining to enjoy the maintenance and it''s all becoming part of the joy of owning a boat!

Good Luck!


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## Magic_Moments (May 15, 2003)

I think for casual sailing, especially in an area with light winds that come and go, you will enjoy having the furling main. If you are going offshore or racing then you could switch, but I would try what you have for a year before deciding.

For me the promising breeze always dies as soon as I have the sail up, so I leave it up and motor until it reappears. I was so happy to get roller furling on my head sail as I was so tired of changing sails up there that sometimes I wasn''t even tempted to put one up. I have thought about getting a furler for my main, but if I do it will be on the boom.

Catalina 36''s are nice boats, I have one parked next to me and some friends at work have one. I think you will enjoy it a lot.

Ken


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The problem with a roller furling mainsail in an area with predominantly lighter winds is that the reduced sail area and poorer sail shapes means that there will be a lot of days when you might have been able to sail with a conventional mainsail but can''t with a roller furling mainsail. 

Jeff


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

Jeff, I think the original poster will be sailing in San Francisco so I don''t think lighter winds will as much of a worry.

But I have one question. On a masthead boat with a relatively large Genny and a "smaller" high aspect main (like the C36) does the reduction in mainsail area from a roller furling main make that much of a difference? The total sail area lost is not as large a percentage as other boats. Yes in very light wind you''ll lose some performance and the C36 is not really a light wind boat to start with .

I could see on boats that have full mains with large roaches and relatively smaller jibs then the roller furling main will make a much bigger difference and I am sure I wouldn''t want it on my boat then.

I''m sure it would be noticed in a round the buoys race, but I''m just feeling on the C36 its wouldn''t be as big a deal vis-a-vis performance.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

From talking to sail makers, and from my observations, (I have actually had quite a few chances to see sisterships underway one with and without a furling mainsail) the difference in performance is quite dramatic throughtout the entire wind range. The lighter air side of the equation is quite obvious but to explain the heavier air problem, the better in-mast furling sails will have a pretty good shape when first furled but over a pretty short period of time the leech creeps toward the foot resulting in a pretty poor heavy air sail shape and an increased likelihood of a jamb. If this boat is in lower San Francisco Bay then I would say that the in-mast furler is definitely out of the question. They will need to reef reliably and end up with a good heavier air flying shape. An in-mast furler just will not do that. 

Jeff


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

There is a good article in this months Sail Magazine on Sail Material and people''s choices. One section discuss''s someones desire (on a Hylas 46) to have a new inmast furling Main. They talk about some of the issues Jeff discuss''s and how today, some of those shortcomings are being overcome by newer sail making techniques.

They talk about using stiff vertical battens and bigger roaches capability. Doing these things allowed a 20% larger roller furling main than the old one.

I think older inmast systems were obviously less than ideal, but I think that more and more techniques are being incorporated to lessen the difference. With longevity of sailshape and inmast systems that keep the mainsail problems to a minumum.

As far as performance I think it really depends on the boat. Yachting World did a comparison sailing of the 3 43'' Jeanneaus - The Sun Odyssey 43DS, Sun Odyssey 43 and Sun Fast 43.

The 43DS had a inmast furler and the regular 43 had a tradional mainsail. The Deck Salon with inmast furler sailed just as well (or better) than the regular 43. It doesn''t make a lot of sense I know, and the reviewers felt the same. But I think on some boats with a mast head rig you don''t see as big a difference as pundits claim.

Read the review and make up your own mind - Yachting World May 2002 p104-110
Jeanneau 43-footers Tim Thomas 

(Link is not working now but you used to be able to read the comparison review on-line)http://www.jeanneauamerica.com/43s_ontest/43s_ontest_intro.htm )


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I had a friend who decribed a nightmare charter in heavier winds with an inmast furling sails. It strated me to thinking about where this technology is going. At the last boat show I spent a bunch of time talking to sailmakers from a number of name brand lofts. Universally out of this group multiple sailmakers who make and develop in mast furling sails and this group includes who build some of the newer designed newer sails, the opinion was that while there has been a lot of effort made to improve the sails being used in in-mast furlers they have not been successful improving the performance or durability fo in mast furling sails. The big issue with in-mast furlers is the problem of creep. Creep occurs because the forces of the sail, especially on the luff, cause the leech of the sail to cause the layers of rolled up sail to slide over each other so that the upper portions of the leech creep down the rolled up sail toward the foot. This does two things, it powers up the center of the sail, and enormously increases leech loadings. These high leech loadings and powered up (and low stressed center of the sail)means that there is a lot greater stetch in the leech than in the core of the sail and so means a prematurely blown out sail. The high incidence of leech flutter in comparatively new in-mast furling mainsails is but one symptom of a prematurely blown out leech. Various techniques are used to minimize this problem such as using heavier warp oriented cloths along the leech of furling sails but this carries with it a whole range of other issues.

I did discuss some of the newer ideas being tried with sailmakers and designers. There is a lot being tried, from battens that can be furled with the sail, vertical battens and battens that can be rotated from vertical to horizontal once the sail is unrolled. One of the most revealing conversations that I had was with one of the designers for the one of the companies who pushes the vertical batten solution, he says that it is true that the vertical battens allow a nearly straight leech or even some minor roach, but the vertical battens do nothing for windward performance (except the one company whose design allows the batten rotates in its pocket.) Even with vertical battens, creep is still a problem meaning extremely poor sail shape when as a cruiser you really need good sail shape, and at least according to the sail designer, no improvement in sail longevity. In fact it was felt that in some ways battens agrevated the longevity issues by concentrating the loads. All of the makers of batten systems for in-mast furling said that adding battens to an sail intended for in-mast furling greatly adds to the likelihood of a jamb. Again it is a matter of creep. When the sail creeps, the batten is now wrapped at an angle and so is in a position to create a half-in/half-out jamb which is the worst of all world. 

Unless someone invents a technology that is beyond anything that I can picture, I really think we will look back on in-mast (or behind the mast for that matter) furling systems in much the way that that we look back at roller reefing systems and reel winches of the 1960''s, as a potentially interesting idea that really could be made to work in a safe and reliable manner. 

I don''t know about the Yachting World review of the Jeanneau''s but the guys who sell these boats, and make the sails for these boats are quite clear that there is a substantial performance penalty with in-mast furling. One of the PHRF regions did testing to determine if there should be a rating credit for in-mast furling. Based on testing of a fairly large number of sister-ships of various models in a variety of wind ranges the results of the testing suggested a 12 to 30 seconds difference between the conventional mainsail and the furling mainsail with the conventional main doing better in all windspeed but having its biggest gains in lighter winds and in heavier air. A 12 to over 30 seconds a mile difference is a big performance difference (nearly the difference between my prior 28 footer and my current 38 footer) especially when you don''t have crack crews tweeking the in-mast furling sails to get the most of them as was done during the PHRF evaluation.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## eds928gt (Sep 28, 2001)

Would an in-boom furler be better or worse than an in-mast furler? At first blush (to me), it seems that an in-boom furler may have some advantages over the in-mast furler. Among them are that full (horizontal) battens could be used, and the weight of the system is carried lower on the mast. Also, reefing the main could be done in the conventional manner. Lastly, if the system jams, one could cut the halyard and drop the sail in an emergency.

In your opinion, what are the pros/cons of in-boom furlers?

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

In a general nut shell inboom furlers allow a better sail shape but inmast furlers provide more trouble free operation.


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

Sailmc. That might be true but I can''t say for sure on the amount of troubles for either.

As was mentioned before the thing about in boom furlers is that if they do jam, you can still drop the sail. A very nice feature (not sure if you need to cut the halyard. I bet if it jammed and you had reefing grommets built into the sail then you could still reef the old fashished way with reef lines at tack and clew.

To me the in boom is vastly superior other than the cost and the fact that the boom has to be a certain diameter, no matter what boat. I''m not sure how it would look with a big fat boom on a small boat. Thats why I think in-booms furlers are best for boats over 40''


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Seems to me a missed point here is that it took three people to put a reef in the main when the wind piped up. Any 36 footer which requires three people to reef the main would be out of the question, in my mind. Especially for a first boat on which one of the crew is not a sailor.
I would look for a different Catalina 36 if everything else about this boat seems right.
In mast reefing was never a good idea, in my opinion.
Best of luck.


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

So Casey1004....Todays Monday Oct 27th.
Did you buy the boat? Did you change your mind, put the mast in, launch the boat & take it on a sea trial? Saturday was beautiful around here, it would have been a nice day to take her out. 

BTW you still have a few weeks of good weather to take a boat out around here, just gotta pick your days and get in before the sun goes down (thats when it really gets cold)....it might satiate you through that long winter without sailing


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

garyp,

I have a very big question which there probably won''t be an answer for. Why did it take 3 people to put a reef in the main? Even with the in-mast furler. It sounds like they didn''t know the system and the nuances to make it work. I have heard it takes a little while to "get the system down", that includes knowing where to set the vang, adjusting the relationship of the outhaul to the furler, etc, etc. Did they ''dump the traveller''?" Did they head into the wind a bit to relieve pressure on the main? I can sail my standard mast/135% genny C36 up to 25 knots of wind without reefing. Yes it''s just about time to reef, but its a pretty stiff boat (<16 Sa/D) and not too big a deal (pushing 20+ deg heel hard on the wind). Maybe I know how to use the cunningham, etc & really flatten the main to blade it out and dump the traveller.

I have an autopilot and with single line reefing and dutchman (which comes standard on C36) I can reef the main alone. I do it all the time and I never have to leave the cockpit. If I had an in-mast furling mainsail, I''d be able to do the same thing.

ps. Yes, with the single line reefing there are issues such as extra long reefing lines, chafe and extra reefing line friction -- but if that bothered me too much it wouldn''t take that much to convert to a dual line reefing system in which one person could utilize from the cockpit.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I suspect that it took three people; one to steer, one to carefully and slowly ease the outhaul in order to end up with a flat sail when reefed, and one to bring in the furling line. That is actually the proper procedure when reefing rather than furling. 

Jeff


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## alicia (Nov 9, 2002)

I''ve signed the acceptance form and I close on the boat next week. I''ll find out next spring the nuances of the furling main. Most people I talk too say the new systems are pretty foolproof and only jam/cause problems due to operater error. Ideally I would have preferred in-boom furling but this seems to be very expensive. On most new boats this option adds as extra $10k.


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## tsenator (Nov 6, 2000)

Congrats and good luck.

You should seriously think about joining your Local C36 Fleet (Fleet 5) http://www.catalina36.org/Fleet5/ . They are very active and set up all sorts of rendevous, get togethers - dinners'', seminars, etc etc. They are probably the most active C36 fleet in the country. They are great bunch of guys/gals and the support system is wonderful. It costs almost nothing and gets you automatic membership into the Internatinal C36 organization http://www.catalina36.org/ and a subscription to Mainsheet, which is Catalina''s quarterly magazine which has stories, events and tech notes that are very valuable.

Also you might think about their Sister organization LISCA (Long Island Sound Catalina Assoc). That co-sponser events etc, etc. http://www.saillisca.com/home.html


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