# New Lehr propane outboard



## davidpm

Others have mentioned this new outboard before but has anyone used one yet?

I just wonder why it wasn't done years ago.
Seems like a simple idea.
Propane fired towmotors have been in use for years.
I it just a standard 4 cycle motor.
The ability to plug in 1 lb can in the cowling is a neat idea.

One pound of propane is equal to about 1/4 gal of gas.
Almost no ignition service required, the plug should last a very long time.
Still has oil and lower unit oil but should require less maintenance.
Should be more reliable as the most starting issues on gas are related to the problems with fuel.

What do you think?
As a bonus for sailboats we can run the outboard off the same fuel as our grill.
So now instead of having to carry diesel, gas and propane we only have to carry two.


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## elvishessler

How long do you think a 1 lb canister will last on a 2.5 hp?LEHR - Environmentally Friendly Technology


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## lans0012

I really like the idea of the portability and ease of screwing in a tank or a remote tank that doesn't smell or leak. Most of the time we pack up the outboarrd and use it a total of maybe 45 minutes over a weekend. Maybe not for the long haul cruisers but for weekenders I think it's a good innovation.


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## Faster

Plenty of warehouse equipment (forklifts, etc) that aren't electric have been running propane for ages, so there's no reason why it couldn't work here. Economy and power may not be as good, but there's certainly a convenience factor, and in this case the propane is literally 'off the boat' unlike a stove as long as the outboard is not in a well.


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## Don L

To me the benefit is more the preventing of the problems related to gas for the outboard. Since I don't use my outboard that much the gas goes bad and I can not really rely of the damn thing.


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## davidpm

elvishessler said:


> How long do you think a 1 lb canister will last on a 2.5 hp?LEHR - Environmentally Friendly Technology


don't quote me but I believe the salesman said on full throttle the 1 lb was good for about 45 min but backed off to 3/4 throttle it was good for a couple of hours.

I do remember the 1/4 gal of gas per 1 lb of propane ratio.
So whatever you would get out of a 1/4 gal of gas.

A spare 1lb would be easy to carry.
If you have to do serious motoring you can get any size you want same as for the grill or even use the grill tank.

I'm having a hard time finding any serious downsides.
I checked the price and there is a premium of about $130 for the 2.5 model.


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## wlbutts

davidpm asked "I just wonder why it wasn't done years ago."

I did in 2009. Been working fine since William L. 's Site - PROPANE OUTBOARD PROJECT

Happy to answer any questions


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## davidpm

wlbutts said:


> davidpm asked "I just wonder why it wasn't done years ago."
> 
> I did in 2009. Been working fine since William L. 's Site - PROPANE OUTBOARD PROJECT
> 
> Happy to answer any questions


Neat project.
do you see anything the commercial product did that you were not able to to.

Do you refill your 1 lb bottles?
do you freeze them first?
what weight do you fill them to?


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## overbored

nice not eto have to carry a gas can on board and the mess of filling the outboard tank. carry a few spare bottles in the dingy if it runs out. 
doesn't a propane powered engine require a more frequent oil changes do to the propane causing thickening of the oil?


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## tommays

The 64 million dollar question is who built it and there keeping that quite 

They even have defender selling the stuff right now and there is NO dealer service/parts network


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## wlbutts

davidpm said:


> Neat project.
> do you see anything the commercial product did that you were not able to to.
> 
> Do you refill your 1 lb bottles?
> do you freeze them first?
> what weight do you fill them to?


Commercial Product is probably more reliable and has a warranty, was not available when I first needed it.

I refill the 1lb bottles

I don't freeze the bottles first, just chill them for 20 minutes in an ice chest, I don't even use but "blue ice" freezer blocks

I use an inexpensive "postal scale" from "wal mart" (about $12 3 lb capacity) and fill em to an ideal weight of 1 lb 14 oz. (1 lb 10oz - 1 lb 15 oz range). If they overfill I little, I vent them down to 1lb 15

I generally get two or three refills on a bottle. If bottle has more than even minor surface rust, any mishape, or I can smell any gas; I trash the bottle.

To trash the bottle (1) empty all gas with refill adapter (2) Remove the "vent valve" with a long stem "tire valve tool" (the one that looks like a screwdriver) (3) place upside down, with refill adapter on and "vent valve" removed for 8 hours (lets all propane heavier than air escape) then (4) either remove "fill valve) with tool or drill out with cordless drill. This gives you a "demonstratable" empty bottle that scrap dealers will more readilly accept for recyling 14 oz of steel.


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## wlbutts

Very important i forgot to mention - do all refill and trash bottle activity in a well ventilated area.

I do on the picnic table in the middle of my back yard away from all other structures


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## davidpm

tommays said:


> The 64 million dollar question is who built it and there keeping that quite
> 
> They even have defender selling the stuff right now and there is NO dealer service/parts network


West Marine is now selling them.
Maybe that will be the parts outlet.


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## MedSailor

*Got my hands on the new propane outboard today*

Oops, started a new thread without looking to see that this one was here. Here's what I posted:

Anacortes was having a "boat show" this weekend, which was really just a chance for boat brokers to show off their stock, but there were a couple local yards and shops with tables out. One of the local yards had the LEHR propane outboards. I gave the 2.5 a good once over. Here's what I learned:

It looks well made and well thought out. There is a removable rubber plug in the cowling to access the spark plug for example and the oil change screw and oil fill are easy to get to. All controls felt strong and positive and seemed to be of high quality. *Apparently it's a Yamaha engine and parts will be the same as yamaha 2.5hp parts. *

What I was most interested in was run times. He had a chart and apparently at full throttle a 1lb bottle (or one pound worth of a larger bottle) will give you 60min at 4,000rpm which is wide open. 1/2 throttle, which is 3,000rpm (according to the chart) will give you 2hrs and 39min of run time per lb.

Starting is reportedly easy, but 3 pulls are required once you attach a propane bottle to prime the system. After that it's 1 pull till the bottle is empty.

The 2.5 does have a slot for 1lb bottles AND a fitting for attachment to larger cylenders. One very good piece of information is that LHER has a patent on a refillable 1lb bottle that is the same size, shape, and thread pattern as the disposable green ones. They're planning to mass manufacture refillable ones that have a real valve in them. Seems safer than the rubber ball "valve" on the disposable ones. Apparently they're hoping to enter the 1lb bottle market in a big way with exchangeable cylinders like you can now do with your BBQ bottles.

For me, if they have USER refillable 1lb bottles at a reasonable price, that would be enough to make me want to buy it. Have one in the motor and one in the dink and you've got lots of motoring time and you've got no mess, no gasoline spilling, no gasoline smell.

The big purchase budget for this year is already spent and or spoken for so we're not buying an outboard this year but I'll be keeping an eye on these things and touching base with the local seller periodically. I'll keep everyone posted on what I learn.

MedSailor


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## jhorst1

I know this thread is old, but has anyone has any more use this season on these engines? Im thinking about picking up a 2.5 with my new dink and cant find much downside to not having to carry gasoline.


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## MedSailor

I've still got my eye on them. I've heard some unsubstantiated claims that Yamaha's small engine block patent expired and is now being copied by Chinese motor-makers. I kind of think it's unlikely to be a true rumor as the 4 stroke small engines haven't been around that long, but I would like to investigate. Having a block made by Yamaha with another label on it is very different than an unknown company copying a motor. 

I'm sorely tempted to get one, but on the other hand I expect to be sailing to the south pacific and Australia in 5-7 years and I need to investigate the availability of propane and fittings down there....

MedSailor


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## Capt-T

MedSailor... This is great news if the claims are true. Not the part about the engine block patent expiring... but the part about the Chinese WAITING for the patent to expire before they start copying!!


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## tommays

If you take some time and wonder around the Internet you will find they did the same thing with weed whackers and SEARS promoted them in a pretty big way 

If you look a bit more you will see it did not really work out with the biggest complaint being HARD STARTING  

There are a LOT of knockoff Chinese outboards with Parson being one of the more well known ones and despite the cost advantage nobody has every gotten far in competing with the name brands


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## jeffyboatingman

tommays said:


> The 64 million dollar question is who built it and there keeping that quite
> 
> They even have defender selling the stuff right now and there is NO dealer service/parts network


I own a 5hp LEHR Short Shaft Outboard, and it is indeed a Chinese Knockoff of an older Yamaha 4 stroke.. It uses the same prop spline, powerhead looks like a yamaha too, just different shape cowls.

I live in WA and well not sure about my motor, might be a lemon of the bunch but it is that awesome unfortunately. It had idle issues right from the box when I purchased it, it wouldn't Idle correctly and would die if I put it in gear. I ended up calling and getting instruction on how to get it idle correctly, keep in mind I have owned old 2 strokes to newer 4stroke since about the 90s, 20 years or so. It was simple to adjust the "carb" but it would just not run correctly. It would only idle fine in gear if neutral was idling really high. I fish rivers and around the Everett Area, and I wanna be able to have the motor running the whole time I'm fishing so I can go against the current and adjust my angles on drifts, but alas I can't with this one.

Next Problem is, the ability to refuel compared to a regular gas motor is terrible. I have a canoe so carrying a BBQ tank is not ideal. It does take a 1lb tank but it wont last very long if you're fishing. I have to carry about 3 or 4 little tanks, switch em out everytime it runs out and having to purchase these tanks for $5 each. It doesn't make sense to me to have to purchase these little tanks over having a nice Japanese Outboard with its own tank and have a couple gallons (that you can easily get at a fuel dock!) in a compact container for much less money each trip.

Another issue is it's Too loud because of high idle and motor itself is pretty clunky, the gears inside sound terrible changed the oil a few times to at least kill that sound and best for me was high mileage Castrol GTX. When at Full throttle the tiller handle feels like it's going to break off because of the cheap material its made out of. The handle flexes really badly when your steering the motor.

The Electronics on this motor. If you take a look at all the parts used, quality isn't there. The power packs and spark plug boots feel and look like cheap generic parts. I have a miss here and there on full throttle but not enough for me to notice. I believe it's just a slight short going on.

Going to cosmetics and non mechanical parts, The Cowl and Latches. When taking off the cowl and putting it back on, it just won't sit correctly. You have to pound it down on from the top to get it to sit straight and for the flimsy little latches to hold it down. The flimsy little latches, self descriptive. Any kind of wave or movement on the boat can unlatch it easily. The latches look like they cost $0.05 to make and feel just as cheap as every other part.

If I could re-do my purchase I'd get a nice Merc/Nissan 5 or 6hp 4stroke and just call it a day. Sure the Lehr might not have carb issues, but I'm sure my motor will give me more issues. It feels very fragile compared to my previous Mercury 3.5hp 4 stroke. It's also a PITA to get fuel for this motor and a lot of the metal parts including my fuel hose is starting to change color and slightly corrode.

So there's my 2 cents guys, thanks!!


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## Capt-T

Quite a negative review there!! But being your 1st post on this forum certainly cuts down on the credibility of the source. 

Certainly could be a thoughtful consumer hoping that others don't make the same mistake that you do... Or could be a competitor or disgruntled ex-employee, or any number of other possibilities.

Call me a cynic... But I hope some other users chime in on the reliability of their units.


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## Ajax_MD

tommays said:


> The 64 million dollar question is who built it and there keeping that quite
> 
> They even have defender selling the stuff right now and there is NO dealer service/parts network


I watched a demo at the Annapolis boat show and asked several questions. I was 100% onboard until the dealer told me that they were made in China.

Ain't buying one.:hothead


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## MarkofSeaLife

First, see of you can get the spark plug out!


I couldn't in the shop.
I don't know how it comes out.


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## davidpm

I ran into some random guy at WM as I was looking at one. He raved about how much he liked his and how long that small tank lasted him.

I really am surprised that their are not more reviews on-line.


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## RobGallagher

BubbleheadMd said:


> I watched a demo at the Annapolis boat show and asked several questions. I was 100% onboard until the dealer told me that they were made in China.
> 
> Ain't buying one.:hothead


I was under the impression that they are Yamaha engines.


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## MedSailor

RobGallagher said:


> I was under the impression that they are Yamaha engines.


I "heard" from a dealer that they were a Chinese clone of the Yamaha engine. Second hand, so I don't know if it's true...

Another piece of second hand information, for what it's worth; I was talking about these to a boating friend a couple weeks ago and he told me that his buddy bought a LEHR propane outboard and wasn't thrilled with it at all. Sorry for the second hand reports. Normally I don't like spreading rumors but there is a paucity of first hand information.

As for the validity of the review by Jeffboatingman, it sounds legit to me. Who, exactly, would this "disgruntled competitor" be anyway? Do you think somebody from Tonhatsu, Honda, Merc etc posted that review? I doubt it.

Jeffboatingman,

Welcome to sailnet!

Medsailor


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## 4arch

I'm in the market for a new dinghy motor and am finding that there is no "perfect" small outboard. Gasoline and electric have real disadvantages too. In fact, I won't buy another gasoline OB until I'm confident the manufacturers have engineered around the ethanol related issues - which may leave me waiting a long time. Maybe I'll just go back to rowing?


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## jeffyboatingman

Capt-T said:


> Quite a negative review there!! But being your 1st post on this forum certainly cuts down on the credibility of the source.
> 
> Certainly could be a thoughtful consumer hoping that others don't make the same mistake that you do... Or could be a competitor or disgruntled ex-employee, or any number of other possibilities.
> 
> Call me a cynic... But I hope some other users chime in on the reliability of their units.


Nope definitely looking out for people! I know it's my first post but been reading more positive reviews , none negative or having any issues, and posted reviews on my unit on different sites and they won't come on so I see foul play going on. I bought this motor online from Iboats.net and never really got to look at the product in person just purchased it according to other people's reviews. As of now it runs okay, but it was definitely a rocky start with this motor. Like I said, it was an honest review and I am just looking out for y'all. I live in Everett, WA and have no affiliation with any competition or them. Anyway the last part (carburetor) I received from them was from los angeles.


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## jeffyboatingman

MedSailor said:


> I "heard" from a dealer that they were a Chinese clone of the Yamaha engine. Second hand, so I don't know if it's true...
> 
> Another piece of second hand information, for what it's worth; I was talking about these to a boating friend a couple weeks ago and he told me that his buddy bought a LEHR propane outboard and wasn't thrilled with it at all. Sorry for the second hand reports. Normally I don't like spreading rumors but there is a paucity of first hand information.
> 
> As for the validity of the review by Jeffboatingman, it sounds legit to me. Who, exactly, would this "disgruntled competitor" be anyway? Do you think somebody from Tonhatsu, Honda, Merc etc posted that review? I doubt it.
> 
> Jeffboatingman,
> 
> Welcome to sailnet!
> 
> Medsailor


Thanks!! I know I'm not the only one, but I need to speak out. The customer service was pretty good for what it is, but definitely slow and looks like getting parts is a huge hassle. I'm not sure why huge companies like Nissa/Tohatsu, Honda, Merc, or any other company would even bother posting fake reviews, they have sold thousands of motors and have a huge market and selection of outboards.. Lehr's have just 2 motors out.. I think they have a 9.9 out too. I personally bought the motor because I last heard it was an American Company. A little disappointing when I saw the tag saying made in China, I already received and paid for it so just thought I would stick with it. Not sure how I would be able to cut my losses and sell this thing. I think I'm going to just purchase a Mercury/Nissan 5hp. I'll deal with occassional carb rebuilds, better than breaking down and worrying about not being able to refuel my engine. :hothead


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## chessie291

Its a HIDEA . . . A Chinese company dating back to 2008. They build small 2 and 4 stroke gas outboards; 2.5 up to 20HP and word is a 40 is in the future. They have a reputation for being cheap and reliable. They are sold all over the world but not in the U.S. In the U.K. the 4 stroke 2.5 gas model sells for about $660 converted from Pounds Sterling. In my neck of the woods the the 2.5 sells for $1049 . . . who's makin money here??


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## Stu Jackson

Capt-T said:


> Quite a negative review there!! But being your 1st post on this forum certainly cuts down on the credibility of the source.
> 
> Certainly could be a thoughtful consumer hoping that others don't make the same mistake that you do... Or could be a competitor or disgruntled ex-employee, or any number of other possibilities.
> 
> Call me a cynic... But I hope some other users chime in on the reliability of their units.


That's not fair at all.

There are a lot of unhappy users out there. cruisersforum has some, read about 'em here:

Cruisers & Sailing Forums


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## hopcar

Hi Guys, I'm new to this forum and before I comment on this thread I have to tell you I'm a Lehr dealer.
That said, I've had no idea who made them. After reading Chessie's post I had to look at Hidea motors online. I think he's right. The lower unit on the Hidea 2.5 looks just like mine.
Chessie, how did you figure that out?


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## nauticalrich

Asked local WM and they sold two and both came back.uke
Didn't give me the reason.


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## hopcar

I'm guessing that West Marine didn't start the engine before they gave it to the customer. The propane is bled out of the engines before they ship to the dealer. The dealer is supposed to bleed the air out and start the engine before giving it to the customer. They are almost impossible to start if the air isn't replaced by propane in the lines. It takes less than a minute to do it and the only tool you need is a paper clip. After the air is bled, one or two pull starts are the norm.


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## IPYcat8

Picked 5 hp from West Marine in Anacortes in June. Put in use on my boat in charter with AYC. Last charterer came back with complaints about quitting while at idle after a quick throttle down from full. Have taken out and will take to service at North Harbor Diesel.

I like having a 4.8 # bottle with pressure gauge located under and forward of the dinghy seat.

Will keep you posted.


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## hopcar

IPY, you might want to try setting the idle a little faster before you go to the trouble of taking it in for service. MurrayM posted a very nice photo of the Lehr carburetor over on the Trawler Forum. I'll borrow it and post it below. See the square plate with a hole in the middle? It's held on by four screws. There is another screw just over it. That's the idle speed adjustment screw.

If you can't resolve the problem by adjusting the idle, it probably needs to have a richer mixture which is done by removing the carb slide and turning the needle in. I think Lehr would prefer a mechanic to do that but it is pretty easy.


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## davidpm

hopcar said:


> IPY, you might want to try setting the idle a little faster before you go to the trouble of taking it in for service. MurrayM posted a very nice photo of the Lehr carburetor over on the Trawler Forum. I'll borrow it and post it below. See the square plate with a hole in the middle? It's held on by four screws. There is another screw just over it. That's the idle speed adjustment screw.
> 
> If you can't resolve the problem by adjusting the idle, it probably needs to have a richer mixture which is done by removing the carb slide and turning the needle in. I think Lehr would prefer a mechanic to do that but it is pretty easy.


Are you a dealer for any small gas engines too?
If so can you compare them for, service records and general quality.


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## hopcar

Davidpm, Many years ago I sold Johnson and Seagull outboards. I have no current experience with selling other brands. I do own a Yamaha 70 hp on a larger boat and I like it very much. I bought a Lehr 2.5 to replace a Suzuki 2hp 2-cycle that drove me crazy because the carb gummed up if it sat for a month or more. That's not a problem with the Lehr.

General quality of the Lehr seems OK. The only complaint I (and others) have is with the cover on the 2.5 and 5 being fiddly to install and latch. I seem to be getting the nack now that I've done it a few times.

The Lehr's just haven't been out there long enough to have a service record. I follow a lot of forums to keep track of what is happening in the real world of boats. It seems people either love or hate their Lehr's. I think most of the problems are because the dealers don't do the required pre-delivery check. If the dealer gives you an engine in an unopened box, there's a good chance it won't start. When that happens, people get mad and engines get returned. The dealer needs to fill the engine with oil, bleed air out of the lines, start the engine and if needed adjust the idle speed. If the dealer does this, the customers seem happy with them.

Lehr doesn't put the process for bleeding the lines in the owners manual but I think they should. When the engine sits for a few weeks, air can get in the lines or if you put a new hose between the remote tank and engine it will have air in it. Bleeding the air out requires a very expensive tool that you buy at an office supply store. It's called a "Paper Clip". Do you see the hole in the middle of the square plate in the picture? Gently stick the straightened paper clip in there and listen to the engine hiss for a few seconds. After that the cold engine will start in three good pulls. Warm engines usually start on one pull . 

Ask me in a few years how well they hold up. 

"The lesson from the Icarus story is not about human failing.
It is a lesson about the limitations of wax as an adhesive."
He should have used 5200.


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## RonRelyea

hopcar said:


> Davidpm, Many years ago I sold Johnson and Seagull outboards. I have no current experience with selling other brands. I do own a Yamaha 70 hp on a larger boat and I like it very much. I bought a Lehr 2.5 to replace a Suzuki 2hp 2-cycle that drove me crazy because the carb gummed up if it sat for a month or more. That's not a problem with the Lehr.
> 
> General quality of the Lehr seems OK. The only complaint I (and others) have is with the cover on the 2.5 and 5 being fiddly to install and latch. I seem to be getting the nack now that I've done it a few times.
> 
> The Lehr's just haven't been out there long enough to have a service record. I follow a lot of forums to keep track of what is happening in the real world of boats. It seems people either love or hate their Lehr's. I think most of the problems are because the dealers don't do the required pre-delivery check. If the dealer gives you an engine in an unopened box, there's a good chance it won't start. When that happens, people get mad and engines get returned. The dealer needs to fill the engine with oil, bleed air out of the lines, start the engine and if needed adjust the idle speed. If the dealer does this, the customers seem happy with them.
> 
> Lehr doesn't put the process for bleeding the lines in the owners manual but I think they should. When the engine sits for a few weeks, air can get in the lines or if you put a new hose between the remote tank and engine it will have air in it. Bleeding the air out requires a very expensive tool that you buy at an office supply store. It's called a "Paper Clip". Do you see the hole in the middle of the square plate in the picture? Gently stick the straightened paper clip in there and listen to the engine hiss for a few seconds. After that the cold engine will start in three good pulls. Warm engines usually start on one pull .
> 
> Ask me in a few years how well they hold up.
> 
> "The lesson from the Icarus story is not about human failing.
> It is a lesson about the limitations of wax as an adhesive."
> He should have used 5200.


thanks for the bleeding tip ... I bought mine from Defenders ... unopened box ... haven't used it yet but will report back!


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## chessie291

Hopcar . I discovered HIDEA on a New Zealand website (I think) while researching the Lehr Products. I figured that a "start-up" like Lehr would not build anything from scratch; they would use someone else's design and modify it with Propane components. The Chinese are the logical folks for something like this . . . so that's where I looked and found the Hidea nameplate. Buyers should not have a parts problem; Lehr simply will feed off the worldwide Hidea supply network (we hope).


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## hopcar

Chessie, I think you've got it figured out. I bet Hidea also supplies parts to other non Chinese outboard brands as well. I know that a Yamaha flush attachment fits the Lehr 5.0

Are you named after Chessie the sea monster or Chessie the C&O Railroad cat?


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## chessie291

Hopcar, Chessie the Sea Monster . . .. we're long time Chesapeake Bay sailors and I'm looking at the LEHR as a dinghy motor . . . getting too old to horse that 8hp Yamaha on and off the Dinghy. Lots of folks have expressed negative comments, but you'll always see that on any forum. I have climbed all over the 2.5 and 5 and they look as good or better than a Tohatsu (who make small motors for several manufacturers). Also, they are not new . . . HIDEA has been around since 2008 and they have a world wide network - now I'm repeating myself.


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## hopcar

I think you would like the Lehr. I'm enjoying my 2.5.


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## davidpm

IPYcat8 said:


> Picked 5 hp from West Marine in Anacortes in June. Put in use on my boat in charter with AYC. Last charterer came back with complaints about quitting while at idle after a quick throttle down from full. Have taken out and will take to service at North Harbor Diesel.
> 
> I like having a 4.8 # bottle with pressure gauge located under and forward of the dinghy seat.
> 
> Will keep you posted.


Get it fixed?


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## Brisak

I am enjoying my 2.5 Lehr on a 8'6" dinghy. It is very efficient, economic and quiet. I had issues with the first one I bought, but Lehr customer service was excellent and exchanged it for me. Apparently there was an issue with an early production that got fixed with the latest. I can recommend the 2.5 Lehr at this point.


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## hopcar

Brisak, There were problems with the first container of motors they brought into the country. We sold several of these and Lehr stood behind their product 100 %. Every one was replaced not just repaired.


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## Mon Amie

I bought the Lehr 5hp short from West Marine when they first came out to replace my Merc 6hp and get the gas off my sailboat. It is Chinese made and parts are cheap plastic. I used it about 4 times. The last time it died when the propane hose to the carb blew off and ended up paddling back. My list of complaints are as follows; cowling doesn't fit, hard to start, excessive vibration, sliced my hand changing the propane tank, and the plastic handle that keeps the motor from turning broke off. I took it home and got it running again after checking for loose bolts and hoses. However as I know longer have any faith in it, it still sits in my garage. I put my 12 year old Mercury 6 back on my boat for use on my dinghy. If you read the reviews on the West Marine site, you will know I'm not the only one. Now looking at electric outboards (Torqueedo) as an alternative.  Craig

I spoke with Lehr about it and told them to build a better outboard with quality parts. It doesn't look like it would last long in a salt water environment.


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## chessie291

Mon Ami,

Wow, not a good review. I have looked at a lot of reviews on these motors including W. M. and its certainly a "love it" or "hate it" story. I have not yet bought one, but at this point it appears to be a risky choice.
If you haven't already, you may want to look at some of the stories about folks who bought some of the early Lehr motors and experienced problems. Lehr replaced them rather than fix them. With a horror story like yours, I'd speak to West Marine, Lehr and anyone else who will listen.

Good Luck,

Chessie


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## Yorksailor

We are in Bonaire in the S. Caribbean. Propane is 5 times the US cost and to get a tank filled you leave it and they ship it to Curacao the next island over and it comes back in two weeks.

However, we can buy petrol very easily.

These outboards are making something very simple very very difficult the moment you leave the US!


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## sparrowe

Mon Amie said:


> I bought the Lehr 5hp short from West Marine when they first came out to replace my Merc 6hp and get the gas off my sailboat. It is Chinese made and parts are cheap plastic. I used it about 4 times. The last time it died when the propane hose to the carb blew off and ended up paddling back. My list of complaints are as follows; cowling doesn't fit, hard to start, excessive vibration, sliced my hand changing the propane tank, and the plastic handle that keeps the motor from turning broke off. I took it home and got it running again after checking for loose bolts and hoses. However as I know longer have any faith in it, it still sits in my garage. I put my 12 year old Mercury 6 back on my boat for use on my dinghy. If you read the reviews on the West Marine site, you will know I'm not the only one. Now looking at electric outboards (Torqueedo) as an alternative.  Craig
> 
> I spoke with Lehr about it and told them to build a better outboard with quality parts. It doesn't look like it would last long in a salt water environment.


I've posted several times about our experiences with a Lehr 5 HP that we bought in June - not sure in which of the several threads that are going, but the comments from Mon Amie (quoted above) are a good place to catch up and share some new information. We have the Lehr on our Beneteau 210 that lives in a slip on a relatively large (3 mile by 9 mile) lake. We daysail, though at some point plan to anchor in a cove for the night.

Until today, our experience with the Lehr has been reasonably good. Starts right up, runs relatively smoothly, and eliminating the need for gasoline on the boat has been quite convenient - not to mention avoiding the regular carburetor rebuilds necessitated by ethanol additives. Yes, we have had the same problem Mon Amie mentions attaching the cowling. Yes, the metal edge of the clip that holds the propane canister is sharp. We had been putting up with those flaws as best we could - again, appreciating how we don't need gasoline on the boat.

Today - the first day in a month with decent 10-15 knot winds, and temperatures under 90F - we arrived at the lake looking forward to a great time on the water. My wife and I pulled off the sail covers, attached the halyards, donned our pfds and planned how we would exit our slip with a fair wind on our port side. I lowered the Lehr into the water and pulled the starting cord. Nothing. Again. Nothing. And so on. What gives?

My first thought was a faulty propane canister that had leaked to empty during the three weeks since we last were aboard. I loosened the clip, unscrewed the canister, and sure enough it was empty. Grabbed a full one, jockeyed it into place, and then realized that the brass screw-on fitting had separated from the line feeding propane to the engine. It was lying loose in the area where the canister rests. Removing the cowling and digging around I was able to find the fuel line. OK, I thought, let's reconnect things. At the end opposite the brass screw-on there is a ribbed metal end that is to be forced into the end of the fuel line. After 30 minutes fussing, I realized I couldn't do it - not enough leverage with the tools available. So, just as Mon Amie's fuel line separates at the carb mine does the same at the tank. Easily separated, but next to impossible to reattach.

I'll get it fixed, but cannot trust the fuel delivery system to work reliably. I'm now thinking maybe a small aluminum propane tank to put in the lazaretto would be a better solution - provided that I can confirm that the quarter-sized hole at the bottom will provide sufficient ventilation.

What looked like a great idea seems to be suffering from sloppy execution.


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## hopcar

Sparrowe, you should call Lehr customer service.

"You may also call us toll-free, Mon to Friday from 9:00AM to 6:00PM PST, and Saturday and Sunday 9:00AM to 5:00PM PST at 1-866-941-LEHR."

If the customer service guys can't help you, ask for Dave the engineer.

I don't think you'll be able to run the engine with a remote tank. The two lines are tee'd together and I think the gas from the remote tank would come out of the broken hose.

Here is a link to where you can see a parts break down for your motor.
Choose Your Motor |


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## sparrowe

Hi Hopcar,

Thank you for your suggestion that I contact Lehr. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of confidence in Lehr Corporate to address the issues that I and other have encountered with my outboard. When I was weighing my options for a new outboard I sought to contact Lehr Corporate in order to better understand their sales and service network. I did this because neither West Marine nor Cabela's - the big chains that carry Lehr outboards - gave me any confidence at all that they were equipped to handle warranty service issues. My first three calls to Lehr went unanswered - the phone just rang and rang. Mind you, this was during weekday business hours in Southern California. Finally, the phone was answered. I asked about warranty service; the person on the other end said it was provided by Dealers - though customers could call directly. I asked if they had dealers near St. Louis, Missouri - and the person on the phone didn't know where St. Louis was in relation to to other cities - say Chicago, for example. I asked this unfortunate women to read me the list of Southern Illinois dealers - of course, she ended up reading down the list of all the Illinois dealers - from Wisconsin to Carbondale - but, with luck she named one in O'Fallon, IL - Cope Marine - right on the way from my home to the lake where we sail. 

So I call Cope Marine and speak to the son of the owner. Nice guy. He assures me that they can perform service on Lehrs. I go out there, buy the motor, and that's where we are. 

So far, Lehr customer service is - how shall I put this? - full of suckitude. Cope Marine, in contrast, is aligned with my interests. I wrote my check to Cope Marine, not Lehr. That's who I will contact. I'll let them know about "Dave the Engineer" - but, frankly, if I end up returning this outboard because of quality issues, I am in a much stronger position dealing with Cope than someone at Lehr who failed third grade geography.

Sorry if I sound pissy, but that's what happens when a stupid P.O.S. design flaw keeps me from a good day on the water.


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## hopcar

Sorry, for some reason I thought you bought it from one of the big chains. Yes your local dealer should take care of it for you.


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## thundraman

These motors are made by Hidea, it's stamped on the block. It's a knockoff copy of an early 2000s Yamaha. Theyre very clunky, hard starting, and unreliable. The Electronics are really cheap and the power pack looks like it came off a chinese mo-ped. The hood won't fit and the latches are crap. I've had so many issues with a 5hp, the carb never fueled correctly and Idle has to be High so it won't die. Replacement parts sent were USED and faulty. The paint off the Lower unit skeg came off after a few couple of uses. I would not recommend these motors to my worst enemy. I've heard many bad stories about these motors from other owners, I returned mine because of how unreliable this turd was. Lugging around an empty propane canister at a marina and finding a filling station is a hassle. Please do yourselves a favor and get a Tohatsu/Nissan/Mercury, Yamaha, anything over this motor. Customer service was sub par, the man who answered couldnt help me start this thing for his life, Dave (Engineer) did help me figure out the problems though, but never ran correctly...


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## eherlihy

Has anyone viewed this?;






Winterizing - just unscrew the propane tank? I guess this guy hasn't heard that 4-stroke engines REQUIRE oil changes. The usual time for an oil change is at winter lay-up.

Storage - just store below in your sailboat, and not get that gasoline odor? Ummmm, have you ever caught a whiff of propane? Also, it could be inferred from the video that he is advocating the storage of the engine and propane canister below deck. This can make your boat go boom!

While I liked the idea of the propane powered outboard, I did not like that it is a 4-stroke, and would therefore require ongoing oil changes. Had I known of the cheap Chinese manufacturing, I would have been even me more leery. All in all, I have to say that I LOVE the Mercury/Nissan/Tohatsu 3hp 2-stroke that I bought from eBay.


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## thundraman

I agree this guy represents the company and doesnt know his product, what a shame. Hes supposedly a captain too. I actually saw this guy in Marina Del Rey.. Anyway i love my 6hp mercury/nissan 4 stroke , huge upgrade over that clunky chinese junk !


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## GearHead

Hi, I'm new here but thought I should chime in and post since my experiences with the Lehr outboards have been positive. I'm a member of a sail club in Long Beach that operates a fleet of small 22-24' Catalina's and use 5 hp outboards as kickers. We have 4 Lehr 5hp motors and a few Tohatsu's and Mercs. The propane motors have gradually over the summer become the favorites of the club members. They always start easily and there isn't any gasoline odor from refilling or even in the exhaust when the wind is blowing from the stern. There haven't been any problems with them that I know of, and I've been watching them to see how they hold up corrosion-wise, and they seem pretty good. They look about the same as the Tohatsus and Mercs and they are all living on the stern suspended over the seawater 24-7. Not sure about Thundraman's experiences.. doesn't match mine based on 4 of the same type engines.
So far I'm sold on propane as a outboard fuel. I'm strongly considering buying a larger one for my 16' runabout when the bigger ones become available.


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## akavishon

Same here ... bought a Lehr2.5 at the start of this season, been using it all summer long, very happy with it and wouldn't want to switch back to gas.

Regarding the comments about "cheaply made chinese stuff", this thing is surely in a class above the Honda 2hp (which somehow escapes this stigma) I owned previously.


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## thundraman

Well that was my experience, in regards to the 2hp Honda, I do agree those little motors are troublesome. I personally would never buy anything Chinese, I bought it assuming it was made in USA or maybe Japan, but its Chinese and quality does show..


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## mad_machine

I am still caught between the LEHR and the larger Torqueedos.. thankfully I will not have to buy till next year


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## kellysails

A friend of ours bought a 5hp LEHR. The problems he had were just beyond belief. Since we are moving our boat to the Caribbean in the next two years I can't wait to get my hands back onto a 2-stoke motor. I can get a modern 9.9 two stroke that weighs the same as my 6 hp four stroke, 58 lbs. Two strokes are so simple and easy to care for, and the new ones are incredibly light.


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## hopcar

As a Lehr dealer, I've started a lot of their engines right out of the box. Every one of them has needed the carburetor adjusted.

To get them started the first time, they need to be primed. All of the propane is drained from the fuel lines before they are shipped. You need to flush out the air and get propane in the lines. This takes less than a minute to do. I teach my customer how to do this as the lines can drain if the engine isn't used for some time. If my own engine hasn't started by the third pull, I prime it.

Once they start, they are going to idle too fast and the mixture is probably wrong. This takes about five minutes to fix. These engines are test run and adjusted before they are shipped from China. I think the propane in China is less energy dense than ours so when the engines get to the US they need to be adjusted to our propane.

When the engine is test run and adjusted by the dealer before delivery to the customer, the customers seem happy. If that's not done, motors get returned and customers are unhappy.


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## davidpm

kellysails said:


> A friend of ours bought a 5hp LEHR. The problems he had were just beyond belief. Since we are moving our boat to the Caribbean in the next two years I can't wait to get my hands back onto a 2-stoke motor. I can get a modern 9.9 two stroke that weighs the same as my 6 hp four stroke, 58 lbs. Two strokes are so simple and easy to care for, and the new ones are incredibly light.


I thought you couldn't buy a new two stroke any more.


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## hopcar

David, You can buy 2 cycle engines pretty much any where but the good old USA.


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## kellysails

Yup, you can in the Caribbean. They have actually improved the weight / power ratio's even more over the years since they stopped selling in the US. 9.8hp comes in at 57 pounds, tough to beat. And simple to maintain. A four stoke at that power will be at least +25 more pounds.

Two Stroke - Budget Marine



davidpm said:


> I thought you couldn't buy a new two stroke any more.


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## SVAuspicious

Our combo electric-start/pull start Honda 9.9 weighs about 104 lbs - more than our Caribe L9. Janet has bursitis so the electric start is a requirement so she can be self-sufficient getting on and off the boat.


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## sparrowe

hopcar said:


> ... Once they start, they are going to idle too fast and the mixture is probably wrong. This takes about five minutes to fix. These engines are test run and adjusted before they are shipped from China. I think the propane in China is less energy dense than ours so when the engines get to the US they need to be adjusted to our propane.


Hopcar, you refer to reducing the idle speed by changing the mixture (if re-setting the idle speed doesn't do the trick). I see how this can be done on one of the Lehr service videos by twisting the injection needle. Your post suggests that the mixture should be made more lean to accommodate the higher energy density of propane in the US (versus China). Do you have a sense for how great the adjustment should be - i.e., half a turn? A quarter turn?

Thanks so much!


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## hopcar

sparrowe, Dave, the Lehr engineer, saw my post concerning adjusting the mixture and I was mildly chastised. They don't want consumers messing with the mixture. In fact I've only had to adjust the mixture on one engine. Idle speed, every one of them. 
If you do feel you need to adjust the mixture, try 1/4 turns or less. It doesn't take much to make a big change.

Capt. Herzer, the founder of Lehr, was in my store last week. I had loaned him an outboard to use at a presentation he was making here in Miami.

I asked him about the possibility of a 2 cycle propane outboard for the US. He thought it could be done but he didn't think there would be much demand. He pointed out that 4 cycle big engines sell better than the available 2 cycle big engines. I didn't get a chance to discuss it with him other than to say I thought a lighter engine could dominate the small engine market. 

What do you guys think?


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## thundraman

hopcar said:


> sparrowe, Dave, the Lehr engineer, saw my post concerning adjusting the mixture and I was mildly chastised. They don't want consumers messing with the mixture. In fact I've only had to adjust the mixture on one engine. Idle speed, every one of them.
> If you do feel you need to adjust the mixture, try 1/4 turns or less. It doesn't take much to make a big change.
> 
> Capt. Herzer, the founder of Lehr, was in my store last week. I had loaned him an outboard to use at a presentation he was making here in Miami.
> 
> I asked him about the possibility of a 2 cycle propane outboard for the US. He thought it could be done but he didn't think there would be much demand. He pointed out that 4 cycle big engines sell better than the available 2 cycle big engines. I didn't get a chance to discuss it with him other than to say I thought a lighter engine could dominate the small engine market.
> 
> What do you guys think?


I don't see how a 2 stroke engine can run on propane, there's no way you can mix 2 stroke oil and propane to mix in the engine unless it's oil injected which would make it really complicated to mix. Larger Motors come in both DFI 2 Stroke (Direct Fuel Injection) and 4 stroke. Mercury, Yamaha, and Johnson make DFI engines so there is demand for 2 stroke, it's probably equal demand. That's a false statement.


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## hopcar

"I don't see how a 2 stroke engine can run on propane, there's no way you can mix 2 stroke oil and propane to mix in the engine unless it's oil injected which would make it really complicated to mix."
Yes it would have to be oil injected. What do you mean by "complicated to mix"?

"Mercury, Yamaha, and Johnson make DFI engines so there is demand for 2 stroke, it's probably equal demand. That's a false statement."

Johnson is out of business so they don't make any motors. Yamaha does make two cycle engines but they are not for sale in the US because they don't meet emission standards.
I don't know if Mercury makes 2 cycle engines anymore but if they do, they are not for sale in the US.

Evenrude is the only company that is making 2 cycle engines that meet emission standards for the US and my impression is that they have a pretty small market share.

The Evenrude portable engines (15HP and less) are all 4 cycle and as heavy as any of the other's small 4 cycle engines.

My opinion is that for large engines that are bolted to the transom and you don't have to lift, 4 cycle engines are a better choice than 2 cycle. They run quiet and start easy. 

Engines that you have to carry should be as light as possible and right now, 2 cycle engines weigh less than 4 cycle. Unfortunately nobody seems to be able to make one that meets US emission standards. 

I think it might be possible to make one that meets emission standards if propane was the fuel.


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## sparrowe

hopcar said:


> sparrowe, Dave, the Lehr engineer, saw my post concerning adjusting the mixture and I was mildly chastised. They don't want consumers messing with the mixture. In fact I've only had to adjust the mixture on one engine. Idle speed, every one of them.
> If you do feel you need to adjust the mixture, try 1/4 turns or less. It doesn't take much to make a big change.


Thanks, Hopcar, for risking another scolding from Dave at Lehr. Interestingly, the procedure is described in some detail in a Lehr video here: LEHR Service

I'll first give another try adjusting the idle with the screw; if the right idle speed in gear still results in high rpms in neutral then I'll adjust the mixture. In the meantime, I'm figuring out how to use the remote propane hose with the 1 LB canisters - it's possible to separate the fuel line from the bottle attachment when removing empty canisters from the back of the motor if the line catches in the opening in the shroud. Plus, the edge on the clasp is pretty sharp - lost a little blood learning that. I've got an adaptor, but I think I need a shutoff valve as well so I can remove the canister without depressurizing the fuel system.

Again, my thanks! I really would like to see this technology come into its own - and I figure that involves a little tinkering and a few ups and downs.


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## thundraman

hopcar said:


> "I don't see how a 2 stroke engine can run on propane, there's no way you can mix 2 stroke oil and propane to mix in the engine unless it's oil injected which would make it really complicated to mix."
> Yes it would have to be oil injected. What do you mean by "complicated to mix"?
> 
> "Mercury, Yamaha, and Johnson make DFI engines so there is demand for 2 stroke, it's probably equal demand. That's a false statement."
> 
> Johnson is out of business so they don't make any motors. Yamaha does make two cycle engines but they are not for sale in the US because they don't meet emission standards.
> I don't know if Mercury makes 2 cycle engines anymore but if they do, they are not for sale in the US.
> 
> Evenrude is the only company that is making 2 cycle engines that meet emission standards for the US and my impression is that they have a pretty small market share.
> 
> The Evenrude portable engines (15HP and less) are all 4 cycle and as heavy as any of the other's small 4 cycle engines.
> 
> My opinion is that for large engines that are bolted to the transom and you don't have to lift, 4 cycle engines are a better choice than 2 cycle. They run quiet and start easy.
> 
> Engines that you have to carry should be as light as possible and right now, 2 cycle engines weigh less than 4 cycle. Unfortunately nobody seems to be able to make one that meets US emission standards.
> 
> I think it might be possible to make one that meets emission standards if propane was the fuel.


Sorry I meant Evinrude (Johnson is still the same to me)... 
All 2 strokes.
Evinrude Etec
Mercury Optimax
Yamaha HPDI
Tohatsu/Nissan TLDI

Almost every company makes a DFI 2stroke which is lighter, as fuel efficient as a 4 stroke or better, and better power too!

Evinrude's portable engines are made by Suzuki, Mercury's are made by Tohatsu btw. Anyway, there's a reason for no available portable 2 stroke outboards that would meet emissions standards. They would have to be Direct Fuel Injected which would require them to have an ECU, special injectors for oil into crankcase/cylinders, and fuel injected into the engine. That's the reason why I said it would be complicated. Simple mechanical oil injection + propane might be easier to engineer, but for it to pass CARB and EU emissions it's not going to cut it.


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## tommays

Well

The Evenrude 15HP is and Inline 2-Cylinder E-TEC DI motor it is a big freaking motor as it is built off the 25 Hp block

The smaller Evenrude 4 strokes 3.5 / 4 / 6 /9.9 and second 15 are in fact Tohatsu from some time in 2012 when yet another change was made

BRP/Evinrude Announces Deal with Tohatsu for Small Outboards | boats.com Blog


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## hopcar

There are more large two cycle outboards out there than I thought.
But back to my question, would you buy a small propane powered motor if it was a two cycle and therefore weighed less than the currently available (in the US) motors?


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## thundraman

tommays said:


> Well
> 
> The Evenrude 15HP is and Inline 2-Cylinder E-TEC DI motor it is a big freaking motor as it is built off the 25 Hp block
> 
> The smaller Evenrude 4 strokes 3.5 / 4 / 6 /9.9 and second 15 are in fact Tohatsu from some time in 2012 when yet another change was made
> 
> BRP/Evinrude Announces Deal with Tohatsu for Small Outboards | boats.com Blog


Sorry I keep thinking about Johnson, which used Suzuki to make their 4 strokes lol You're definitely right, Tohatsu makes motors for both Mercury and Johnson...


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## thundraman

hopcar said:


> There are more large two cycle outboards out there than I thought.
> But back to my question, would you buy a small propane powered motor if it was a two cycle and therefore weighed less than the currently available (in the US) motors?


Myself , No. Had terrible experience with a Lehr 5hp 4 stroke. Let's assume they used a better platform than Hidea and instead used Nissan or Honda, the 4stroke would be a great motor.. The 2 stroke I would still pass on. It would be too complicated and probably more issues even if quality was better. In addition to more possible issues, it would be Louder,it would require purchasing of 2 stroke oil every few trips out in the water, and it would use more fuel thus making your limited/complicated fuel supply run out faster. A 2 stroke would not be a good idea, we'll leave that to good old Dinosaur remains lol


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## SVAuspicious

hopcar said:


> But back to my question, would you buy a small propane powered motor if it was a two cycle and therefore weighed less than the currently available (in the US) motors?


Probably not.

The Lehr engine is attractive. The company makes propane powered mowers and string trimmers that have a good reputation so the service network is surprisingly robust. I sure like the idea of avoiding ethanol issues completely. The idea of moving from three fuels aboard to two is also appealing.

On the other hand getting propane fills without ground transportation is difficult in many if not most places. Sure propane is available even off the beaten path as a cooking fuel, but often not where we would like it to be. If you have to drop a tank off and pick it up the next day, how do you get back to the boat?

If you need is to support weekend sailing the Lehr might be a great fit. For lots of sailing and cruising I don't think it is.

YMMV.


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