# Nothing has changed in 50 years...many sailors still can't navigate...



## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Partly out of disgust for the spate of recent threads and posts by would-be sailors looking for the easiest way to buy themselves into becoming good sailors, I decided to re-read "Dove" by Robin Lee Graham, the story of a 16 year old boy who sails around the world in five years, starting in 1965 with a Lapworth 24 and finishing with an Allied 33, thanks to the sponsorship of National Geographic. It is apparent that Robin Lee Graham was actually a skilled and experienced sailor at age 16, having cruised Polynesia with his parents for a year or two and having learned celestial navigation. He made his way around the world in a simple boat using old-fashioned seamanship, not the latest and greatest purchases in boat, gear and electronics.

I was interested to read the following passage, still pertinent today:

"Been teaching other yachtsmen around here [U.S. Virgin Islands] how to navigate. I'm always amazed how little some people know about sailing. A lot of inexperienced people go cruising before they know what they're getting into."

_Dove_ by Robin Lee Graham, p. 144 (Bantam Books, 1974, 20th ed. 2/84)).


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

it will always be this way...the masses will always be less inspired, instructed and profficient than those who with a PASSION to so...it applies not JUST to sailing...but MANY things

dove was what inspired me, when I was a kid...but Im guilty as charged as Im not proffcient in celestial navigation but can do some basic equations and sights...

I wish I knew more and studied more too...

in cooking there is a saying that you can never learn everything...all cuisines, ever...there is always something new to learn...


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## HUGOSALT (Jun 15, 2004)

jameswilson29 said:


> I'm always amazed how little some people know about sailing. A lot of inexperienced people go cruising before they know what they're getting into."


Could have been me 30 years ago, mostly self taught 
with lot of bumps and grinds along the way but always 
willing to learn from others and have always tried to pay it forward...to those willing to listen.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

paying forward...the classic sailing karma standard, or how it should be at least!


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Take away chartplotters and 98% would never leave the dock .....
as opposed to the 90% that never leave it anyway :laugher


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Longer than that:

Biscayne Bay Yacht Club Beginnings, 1887

"The Club had its origin a little later that spring; one day at Peacock's, Kirk Munroe broached the subject, and we at once organized, he electing me commodore, and I doing the same for him as secretary. This friendly arrangement lasted without interruption until 1909, when I declined renomination, my health being poor, and the club having transferred most of its activities to Miami. Kirk continued as secretary until 1922. I designed the club flag, bearing the emblem of a large "N" interlaced with the figures"25," signifying twenty five degrees north latitude, since we were the most southern club in the country. Mariners abbreviate this to 25 N, but as mariners are not very common among yachtsmen the flag device has almost always had to be explained, and therefore is not entirely a success!"

- from "The Commodore's Story", by Ralph M. Munroe and Vincent Gilpin


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> "A lot of inexperienced people go cruising before they know what they're getting into."
> 
> _Dove_ by Robin Lee Graham, p. 144 (Bantam Books, 1974, 20th ed. 2/84)).


Hey! That's exactly what we plan to do!


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## erps (Aug 2, 2006)

A problem with inexperience, is that folks getting into something new, don't know what they don't know. I look back to our first couple of years of sailing when I was young and knew everything and I'm just thankful we matured to "not knowing everything" without getting hurt.


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

I could use suggestions as to what books would be best or even adequate on the 
subject of navigation. Almost all the books on line are from used book sellers.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

jameswilson29 said:


> Partly out of disgust for the spate of recent threads and posts by would-be sailors looking for the easiest way to buy themselves into becoming good sailors...


I'm not sure that this is such a bad thing. If someone is trying to become a good sailor by buying a lot of high end stuff I see it as their desire to improve and boost their ability and desire to sail. Eventually, when they keep sailing, they get better at it. 
I confess... I'm currently looking for a bargain boat outfitted by one of those guys with all kinds of bells and whistles only to give up on their big dream.


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## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

We all start by knowing nothing. The ego is your guide for whether you know it or not.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

desert rat said:


> I could use suggestions as to what books would be best or even adequate on the
> subject of navigation. Almost all the books on line are from used book sellers.


I have a list of free ebooks  here. The recommended reading thread has good stuff all through it.


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## jimkyle99 (Mar 20, 2013)

_"I could use suggestions as to what books would be best or even adequate on the 
subject of navigation. Almost all the books on line are from used book sellers."_

There's a lot of good information out there (see list above) but the two that I think are the most useful are The Annapolis Book of Seamanship by John Rousmaniere, and Chapman's Pilotage. Chapman's is aimed more at power boating than Annapolis but either are great books to have handy.


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## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

boatpoker said:


> Take away chartplotters and 98% would never leave the dock .....
> as opposed to the 90% that never leave it anyway :laugher


Why kick someone for trying to join the game ? If they leave the dock good for them ! If they just sit at the dock and dream good for them. 
Honey will bring ants to the picnic. Learning to sail is low on the list for most people Sharing a day or trying to add education an history is going to win them over. 
I am sure it is hard to watch people who do not have skill but how will they ever get skill with out a beginning ? If they are 16 or 60 they have to start at the beginning. Some may take one year to get to x proficient others ten. It is ok if you are in a hurry you would not be trying to sail. 
Money and performance rules. A hand held GPS will cost ? and will take how much time and skill to learn. A sexton cost ? and will take how much time and skill? They quit printing charts also. That kind of puts a knife in the beast. If you want people to know you will need to share with joy and pride the ability that you have. 
Nothing has changed in 50 years or 500 years. Humans How amazing we are.
Happy Thanksgiving, Lou


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

jimkyle99 said:


> _"I could use suggestions as to what books would be best or even adequate on the
> subject of navigation. Almost all the books on line are from used book sellers."_
> 
> There's a lot of good information out there (see list above) but the two that I think are the most useful are The Annapolis Book of Seamanship by John Rousmaniere, and Chapman's Pilotage. Chapman's is aimed more at power boating than Annapolis but either are great books to have handy.


SECOND The Annapolis Book Of Seamanship. It's a great reference, I'm looking forward to the new edition.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

James, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but this is how it is with pretty much everything in life. 9 years ago, what I knew about sailboats could be written on the head of a pin. Last fall, I traveled the ICW and offshore to the Florida Keys and returned home safely the following spring. Sure, there were bumps in the road, but that's how people learn.

Same holds true with driving a car, cooking, and any other skills a person acquires in life. Navigation is not rocket science - it's common sense. You learn common sense from the school of hard knocks. The Chinese were navigating around the world in the 13th century, there is good evidence that they arrived in the Americas long before Columbus, they invented the compass, and didn't have sextants. They plotted their position by merely observing certain stars and their relationship to the poles. 

I've been boating since age 8, helped set up the first Loran-A on our ship while in the navy, a monster that took four strong sailors to load into the rack on the bridge, had a hour warm up time, and the accuracy was 1/10 of a nautical mile. That was in 1958. We were amazed at how much easier it was to navigate. My first Loran-C cost nearly $1,200, the accuracy was 1/60 of a nautical mile and the only thing that caused problems were thundershowers. Of course, a sextant is just about worthless in a thundershower as well.

When I got my first GPS plotter, I fell in love with it. I no longer had to guess where the Jack Spot was located off Ocean City, Maryland. I no longer had to watch the depth finder like a hawk and hope for the best because it was a rough day on the ocean and you could barely read the compass, let alone pull out a paper chart. I plugged in the L/L for the Jack Spot Buoy, and followed the yellow-brick road. Low and behold, within a couple hours that buoy was right off the bow of the boat. I was a damned good navigator, but on a rough day with towering seas, 100-percent overcast, charts and a compass to work with, the chances of finding that buoy 25 miles offshore were slim to none. That GPS Plotter put me right on the mark every time and never blinked in more than a decade of hard use.

That said, the GPS plotter makes navigating much easier, and boating becomes more fun - and from my perspective, fun is why I enjoy boating. At my age, 73, I really don't need any more challenges in life. If someone wants to just buy a boat, get on the water, and have fun, and they can do that safely, why not employ every electronic advantage to attain that goal. I could care less if that person learned celestial navigation. I would rather them concentrate on learning the Rules of The Road, safe sail handling, docking, anchoring, cooking aboard and in doing so I sincerely believe they'll learn some pretty good navigational skills along the way. I'm confident that those novice boaters will hit some bumps in the road, but after a few years of wandering off course, they'll be able to find their way home, even at night. And, I'm sure they'll have a lot of fun during the learning process - even if they don't own paper charts or a sextant.

Cheers,

Gary


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

travlineasy said:


> I could care less if that person learned celestial navigation. I would rather them concentrate on learning the Rules of The Road, safe sail handling, docking, anchoring, cooking aboard and in doing so I sincerely believe they'll learn some pretty good navigational skills along the way. I'm confident that those novice boaters will hit some bumps in the road, but after a few years of wandering off course, they'll be able to find their way home, even at night. And, I'm sure they'll have a lot of fun during the learning process - even if they don't own paper charts or a sextant.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


I think James' point is that many people head out not knowing the rules of the road, how to dock or anchor or basic sail trim. There is one charter company in Annapolis that seems to specialize in renting to idiots. When I see the company logo on the bow I stay at least 10 boat lenghts away. Maybe thse people go on to take classes, read and learn. I suspect many have a bad experience and never sail again.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Yes, I know which charter company you refer to. I watched one in action one day. He ran into four boats in the process of backing into a slip. Fortunately, the damages were all minor, but yes, that does happen. Thankfully, that is not usually a problem. Some will eventually learn through their mistakes, some will take classes and walk away with some additional knowledge of boating, but the vast majority will survive, have lots of fun boating, and will not kill someone in the process. 

Cheers,

Gary


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

In essence, the only way to move from being a would-be sailor to being a good sailor is to go out there and do it. It's all very well taking lessons for your day sail but when you go on your very first voyage, you are on your own and your experience only begins from there.

Fact: Very few people who are cruising the world today had the benefit of spending a part of their youth cruising with their parents.

Fact: Very few of the people who went on their first voyage alone with zero experience had a disastrous end to the voyage.

Fact: Very few people who head out on a voyage away from land do so not knowing the rules of the road, how to dock or anchor or basic sail trim.

Fact: Very few people who sailed voyages like the Dove did so without electronic navigational aids because they chose it that way – they had no choice – that was the only way they could do it. Nobody will ever convince me that Robin Lee Graham would have palmed off a Garmin GPS72 saying “Nah, I don’t need that”. But when he sailed on the Dove, a Garmin of any sort was still science fiction.

Is it also not interesting that he started with one vessel and finished with another? I haven't read the account so I don't know why but I do speculate.

Vasco Da Gama and Ferdinand Magellan made it to new continents without charts because they created the charts as they went. So I find it hard to understand why Robin Lee Graham found a need for charts, a sextant and sight reduction tables – why didn’t he just do it “the old way”. 

The answer of course is simple – everyone moves along with the times. I guess we’ll never know how many people have gone on voyages being unable to navigate – it is reasonable to assume that very few of them made it to their destination. Because if they made it then they knew how to navigate - you rarely find an island in the Pacific by accident.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

We will always have the opportunity to come across people with fewer and better skills. I remember returning from the Bahamas in 1975 with dead reckoning and an RDF. The skipper on a boat in front of us was calling on his VHF for local knowledge regarding the Lake Worth Inlet. This put him about 100+ miles off the mark. Hearing his discussion, I knew that he had sailed west from Settlement Point for a approx. 60 mile crossing to Lake Worth. Of course, it would be hard to miss Florida by heading west, but even with a disregard for the Gulfstream I wouldn't expect him to end up that far north of his intended landfall. 'maybe add a disregard for variation and deviation? Who knows? Then there's always those that expect better results. I remember another time before GPS when we left the Bahamas for Fort Pierce. My wife was at the helm at our 0430 departure when I went below to calculate our expected arrival time with the current vector and applying the simple T=D/S formula. I came from below telling Nancie that we would break the inlet at 5PM. I was feeling pretty smug when the rock jetties were at our beam at 5:20 until Nancie turned to me an asked, "What went wrong?" Now, I must admit that I've made my mistakes and had many worst days and predictions, but what seemed like prefection to me was still off the mark for those that don't continually deal with all the variables. Now, with the GPS, it seems that everyone can be the expert and I guess that's a good thing!


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## DonScribner (Jan 9, 2011)

Funny, but in 1963 the slide rule was the way that real engineers calculated. So, ipso-facto, anybody using a calculator or computer to design a state-of-the-art yacht just isn't as skilled or dedicated to engineering as somebody that pours over his book of logarithms. Shall we move on to advanced materials, modern medicine, hybrid cars? Yes, celestian navigation is unfortunately a dying art. I wish I had the skills, but to write off those of us who lack them as under developed, undisciplined, or not dedicated enough is at once insulting, arrogant and parochial. Sailing is perceived as elitist, a pastime of snobbery for the rich and coddled. Is this true? I wasn't born with a Dacron diaper. My dad didn't sail and I am resopsible to my family so wandering off on some self-obseessed adventure to ports unknown for years on end will never happen. Does this mean I am less of a sailor? Really? I sail with one device and a camp stove where most have a full galley and air conditioner at their disposal. My sounder is a lead weight and string. I raise my anchor, hand over fist like they did for thousands of years, not at the touch of a button. I row my solid dinghy rather than motor a RID made of high-tech hypalon. My autopilot is my hand-to-tiller and eyes on my compass, ACCOMPANIED by my one device, the dreaded and despised GPS. 

So, were I to judge who is the most dedicated, it would be the one who sails all he can with all he has, as lacking as that might be. And if the one thing that he can invest in is the very thing that will keep him and his crew off the rocks, so be it. Elitist, show some compassion and humility and join the 21st century, please.

Don 
Biddeford, ME


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

The point is not in using gps or the latest gimcrackery from Silicon Valley, the point is have you practiced the old, luddite, dinosaurian elitist ways enough to survive when your electronics go toes-up? If you're just day sailing and coastal cruising, you don't need much in the way of real navigation, just some basic piloting and awareness of your surroundings. Long-distance cruising, multi-day open water passages, severely restricted visibility - you probably should be familiar with the electron-free techniques that mankind has developed and used over the last five thousand years or so to find his way around on this water-world of ours.

In the third chapter of "The Cruise of the Snark" Jack London tells of leaving San Francisco bound for Hawai'i with no one on board knowing how to navigate. He and his friend Roscoe teach themselves how to navigate. It's one of the funniest bits of sailing-writing I know:

From "The Cruise of the Snark", by Jack London:

"And now, in a cooler moment, I hasten to blab the whole simplicity of it, to blab on Roscoe and the other navigators and the rest of the priesthood, all for fear that I may become even as they, secretive, immodest, and inflated with self-esteem. And I want to say this now: any young fellow with ordinary gray matter, ordinary education, and with the slightest trace of the student-mind, can get the books,and charts, and instruments and teach himself navigation. Now I must not be misunderstood. Seamanship is an entirely different matter. It is not learned in a day, nor in many days; it requires years. Also, navigating by dead reckoning requires long study and practice. But navigating by observations of the sun, moon, and stars, thanks to the astronomers and mathematicians, is child's play. Any average young fellow can teach himself in a week. And yet again I must not be misunderstood. I do not mean to say that at the end of a week a young fellow could take charge of a fifteen-thousand-ton steamer, driving twenty knots an hour through the brine, racing from land to land, fair weather and foul, clear sky or cloudy, steering by degrees on the compass card and making landfalls with most amazing precision. But what I do mean is just this: the average young fellow I have described can get into a staunch sail-boat and put out across the ocean, without knowing anything about navigation, and at the end of the week he will know enough to know where he is on the chart. He will be able to take a meridian observation with fair accuracy, and from that observation, with ten minutes of figuring, work out his latitude and longitude. And, carrying neither freight nor passengers, being under no press to reach his destination, he can jog comfortably along, and if at any time he doubts his own navigation and fears an imminent landfall, he can heave to all night and proceed in the morning.

Joshua Slocum sailed around the world a few years ago in a thirty-seven-foot boat all by himself. I shall never forget, in his narrative of the voyage, where he heartily indorsed the idea of young men, in similar small boats, making similar voyage. I promptly indorsed his idea, and so heartily that I took my wife along. While it certainly makes a Cook's tour look like thirty cents, on top of that, amid on top of the fun and pleasure, it is a splendid education for a young man-oh, not a mere education in the things of the world outside, of lands, and peoples, and climates, but an education in the world inside, an education in one's self, a chance to learn one's own self, to get on speaking terms with one's soul. Then there is the training and the disciplining of it. First, naturally, the young fellow will learn his limitations; and next, inevitably, he will proceed to press back those limitations. And he cannot escape returning from such a voyage a bigger and better man. And as for sport, it is a king's sport, taking one's self around the world, doing it with one's own hands, depending on no one but one's self, and at the end, back at the starting-point, contemplating with inner vision the planet rushing through space, and saying, "I did it; with my own hands I did it. I went clear around that whirling sphere, and I can travel alone, without any nurse of a sea-captain to guide my steps across the seas. I may not fly to other stars, but of this star I myself am master.""

The entire chapter is here; the free ebook is here.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Well sports fans, the Straits Of Magellan were not discovered by Magellan. And, Magellan actually had some charts onboard, albeit crude charts at best, but he actually had charts.They were created by the Chinese treasure fleet and admiral Zheng He, who actually sailed through the straits nearly a century earlier. His charts clearly showed where he sailed to the Spice Islands in junks that measured 400 to 600 feet long and carried huge crews. Ironically, the spice they traded their silk and exquisite porcelain for was pepper, which at the time sold at 50 times the price of gold. Amazing. The charts were created prior to 1428, but Magellen didn't find the straits until 1520, nearly 100 years later. You'll find this and much, much more in "1421: The Year That China Discovered America." It's a fascinating book that I've been reading for the past three weeks.

The compass the Chinese invented was made from a stone bowel filled with seawater and a metal needle magnetized by rubbing it on loadstone and floated on the seawater using surface tension. Because seawater is far more dense than freshwater, the needle floated quite well.

The book is 600 pages long, and there are detailed charts that were created back then of the entire world. The junks actually sailed inside the Great Barrier Reef from end to end, a distance of 1,800 miles, and several were lost due to piercings on the sharp coral reef. The documentation of the above is quite fascinating, and as a history buff of sorts, I love to delve into this type of information. Another great book I can highly recommend is "Fu Sang - How The Chinese Built America." Both books are available from Amazon and worth the time it takes to read them. The contributions made by the Chinese to the entire world with their creations is beyond anyone's imagination.

Cheers,

Gary


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## BentSailor (Nov 10, 2010)

manatee said:


> I have a list of free ebooks  here. The recommended reading thread has good stuff all through it.


Thanks Dylan, bookmarked this one for later downloads.


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## dylanwinter1 (Jan 15, 2010)

BentSailor said:


> Thanks Dylan, bookmarked this one for later downloads.


I am lucky to have been born into a sailing family and with three older brothers I cannot remember not being able to sail

I do remember once my brother taking the pish out of me for being outpointed by a Thames barge

I get quite a few emails from people asking about the best places to get trained - which sailing schools are the best or which RYA qwualifications they need before buying a 30 footer

I tell them to save some money and buy their own boat.

don't listen to the flat cap and red trouser brigade who yachts never leave the dock but get outraged if some-one flies the wrong flag

sailing is easy

I tell everyone who asks to buy a small boat - keep it for a year - then decide what to do

buy a disreputable 16 to 18 foot dirt cheap boat , put a reliable small outboard on the back, find some sheltered water and off you go

motor up wind, stop the engine, hoist the jib and drift downwind

when you think you are about to bump into the edge drop the sail, start that reliable engine and motor back up wind

repeat and experiment - watch what the other boats are doing

within a morning you will be sailing upwind too

As for navigation.... that is so easy

I am a paper chart and GPS man - I have two battery etrexess from ebay

the extrex tells me where the next way point is and how long it will take me to get there, it replaces the speed log and the compass

I have two in case I drop one over-board

Astro navigation has always seemed rather difficult to me - and coming from the UK where we only see the sun once a week it is a very unreliable way of trying to find out where you are

the other day in the shed I stumbled across a strange device with headphones and a compass - a radio direction finder..... bloody nora man... so pleased I will never have to use that old heap of junk again

us sailors have never had it so good

immortal plastic boats, almost unbreakable masts and rigging, sails that last a life-time, bvrilliant nav aids and the ability to summon help by phone or radio, brilliant region specific weather forecasts that are never seriously wrong

I also tell them to never let their wives decide how big the boat should be - otherwise they will get something to big with too much velour and scatter cushions

bah humbug

D


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Omatako said:


> In essence, the only way to move from being a would-be sailor to being a good sailor is to go out there and do it. It's all very well taking lessons for your day sail but when you go on your very first voyage, you are on your own and your experience only begins from there.


Agreed.



Omatako said:


> Vasco Da Gama and Ferdinand Magellan made it to new continents without charts because they created the charts as they went. So I find it hard to understand why Robin Lee Graham found a need for charts, a sextant and sight reduction tables - why didn't he just do it "the old way".


It's worth noting that references to ocean crossings that dot this thread aren't very relevant. It's hard to miss a continent. *grin* I'm much more pleased to have seen the Azores and then Bermuda heave up over the horizon where I expected than of "finding" North America. I like running down 65W for a week and seeing Tortola, lined up to split the island down the middle. I can do it with a sextant plus or minus a few miles. With GPS I'll be spot on.

Note also that follow-on explorers and colonizers often had difficulty making the same landfall as those that came before them. That isn't a problem today.

In my view we should laud those like Captain John Smith (who first mapped Chesapeake Bay) that spent their time in shallow waters with unknown hazards mapping those areas for those that followed. Oceans are easy. Just go for a daysail and forget to go home. It's the hard bits around the edges that are hard.

I can do celestial navigation. I lived through RDF, Loran A, Loran C, Transit, GPS w/ SA, and GPS w/o SA. I'm keeping up with GLONASS and Galileo. Celestial nav is fun. RDF actually has some entertainment value. If my electronics fail (all of them) I'm sure I can find a convenient continent. After all if I get lost I'll 



 In the meantime I will use current electronic navigation because it's the best available and contributes to safety.

Inshore a depth sounder and Mark I eyeball are as important as any other navigation tool. Charts are charts, paper or electronic and are only as good as the survey.

Regardless, we all have to start learning somewhere and sometime. We all will have something to learn until we die.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

dylanwinter1 said:


> I am lucky to have been born into a sailing family and with three older brothers I cannot remember not being able to sail
> 
> I do remember once my brother taking the pish out of me for being outpointed by a Thames barge
> 
> ...


I second the motion. (But watch out for those Thames barges.) 

" To young men contemplating a voyage I would say go." ~~ Joshua Slocum ~~


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

DonScribner said:


> ...................... My autopilot is my hand-to-tiller and eyes on my compass, ACCOMPANIED by my one device, the dreaded and despised GPS.
> 
> So, were I to judge who is the most dedicated, it would be the one who sails all he can with all he has, as lacking as that might be. And if the one thing that he can invest in is the very thing that will keep him and his crew off the rocks, so be it. Elitist, show some compassion and humility and join the 21st century, please.
> 
> ...


'enjoyed this well written post and I agree with your thoughts. I hope that most that speak poorly of those with reliance on their GPS are only referring to the problems that arise when unskilled users fail to realize that the visual world trumps the virtual world. I would add that, although paper charts are not as archaic as the slide rule, there's little risk that GPS will not be continually available and functioning. I don't keep my paper charts because of a fear of losing my GPS capability. I just like the comfortable big picture; the manner of scanning to which I'm accustomed; and my penciled notes. My emergency navigation back-up is a small spare GPS in it's box!


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

Dylan,

I agree that people need to learn on a small boat. I've ssen too many "sailors" who could not keep a Sunfish upright for more than 5 minutes in any conditions. If you learn on a 30+ foot keelboat you never learn to make the small adjustments and feel the changes in wind and current. Its like learning to drive on a forklift.


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## ThirdCoastSailor (Mar 27, 2010)

Hi James,

I certainly agree folks should have some basic knowledge before setting out (colregs, basic boat handling etc.) but at the end of the day knowledge is not the same as experience and the only way to get that is get out there and just DO IT. So I'm willing to cut the inexperienced some slack since we all started out that way and are still there to varying degrees.

To some extent Smack Daddy got it right otherwise you end up reading about other folks' experiences and never having any on your own.

TCS


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

I don't think the point of the OP is to disparage people with little experience navigating. Obviously everyone starts with no knowledge (in any skill or art) and goes from there. The thing that I find irritating (not that it's usually any of my business) is when people want to buy gadgets to REPLACE knowledge and skills. As we all know, this plan can work for a while, but it rarely survives an emergency.

The use of technology is not a problem in and of itself, and each new generation has new technology. But a person who does not understand the underlying principles is really just limping along, waiting for something to go wrong. I'll bet it wouldn't be hard to find a young engineer who doesn't know how to use a slide rule, but on the other hand I would be very surprised to find a true engineer who wouldn't immediately understand why a slide rule works when given a 30-second introductory explanation.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I don't really understand the point of this thread, except that regardless of the times and where you are there are stupid people.

I hope it has nothing to do with GPS/chartplotters as whether you do or don't have one, as it doesn't make/un-make you a good navigator.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I think the point of the op or thread was that there will always be uprepared people or those that dont take certain stuff seriously and invariably end up messing up those that are prepared and responsible too(crap happens right?)...

the fact the robin graham was teaching people how to navigate in the virgin islands as a young guy means that its not the age of the person that matters but the preparedness and effrot required to sail better and more responsibly

I dont think its as simple as stupid people and non stupid people sailing...there are other threads showing how our perceptions are so different...like the uscg saving your ass thread, or the night sailing thread etc...

I posted on another thread that a huge problem nowadays is overreliance on one system or a certain navigation tool

over relying on a chartplotter is unseamanlike cause what if it screws up, can you not dead reckon, throw a bearing sight? can you use binoculars to check buoys, nav lights etc..., plot your course on a simple paper chart? so many things that should be learned...at least as a basis...

cheers


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

For the first 10 years of my career, I had few choices; celestial or Loran A. If one was venturing offshore, then celestial was the only form of fairly exact navigation available to the average sailor. It was time consuming, weather dependent and pretty exacting when one considers that 4 seconds of error in time is an error on the plotting sheet of a mile. Later, for a few years, whenever I was lucky enough to deliver a yacht with a satellite navigator (a precursor to GPS), I'd always check the new fangled machine against my celestial just to be sure. They worked, and couldn't care less about overcast, rough weather or how tired and mistake prone I was. With the purchase of my first handheld GPS (Garmin 48) the sextant fell into disuse and today resides ashore with the out of date nautical almanacs and sight reduction tables. I get a lot more sleep on a passage and worry not at all about losing my ability to find my position at any time of the day or night.
The alternate uses of a sextant, double the angle on the bow, distance off a known, fixed charted feature (lighthouse or tower, etc.) and a half dozen others, are not longer being taught nor used now that cheap, electronic navigation is available to all.
But not having to know celestial and not having to learn sailing through time spent on the water (if one can take a class or two, watch some vids on youtube or read a book or two by the Pardys) does not alleviate one of the responsibility of having a blue water capable boat if one is considering a blue water crossing.
I have always advocated the "just go and do it" school of ocean sailing; rocks sink boats, the sea doesn't.
But, unfortunately, that is not true any more. There are so many types of affordable vessels out there today which are not proper blue water vessels, for most people. I won't get that discussion started AGAIN, but suffice to say that the traditional, reasonably safe, if slow and low performance sail boat, is falling out of favor with most. The newer designs are certainly much more livable below, better sailing vessels and faster, but I doubt that many manufacturers out there today, care one iota whether someone lives or dies on their boat, as long a their bottom line is in the black.
This is the major change I see in sailing today; the boats. Though it may indeed be the modern electronic equipment that facilitates the ability of many to make a blue water crossing, it is the plethora of unsuitable vessels that are being hyped as "blue water cruisers" to sell them to the unwary that is a bigger problem. If you took a few sailing classes on a few different boats by built by a company that was smart enough to supply these sailing instruction companies with their boats for free. then, since you had a good experience on these boats, you might consider buying one for yourself. Hey, it was a great boat for 6 to live on for a week of sailing 101. But is it suitable for an ocean crossing? So many now own them that if you ask on a forum, you will get a resounding answer yes, because nobody wants to admit that they screwed up. Sure some do sail offshore, are bareboats in the islands and have even circumnavigated. But that doesn't make them suitable offshore vessels for most. A lot of really crappy boats have circumnavigated, but that still doesn't make them good boats, or safe; only lucky.
A great deal has changed in the last 50 years, I think. The way one gets into sailing has changed greatly as have the boats. It seems the combination has allowed many more to get into sailing, a great thing. But with a lot less knowledge, with less suitable vessels and less capital investment (value of money, wise), leading to more problems when they decide to venture beyond the scope of their abilities and that of their boats.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I like a lot of your points capta, especially the boats in question...very true

its not the equipment on a boat either I may add...to many flimsy boats are loaded with so much crap nowadays youd wonder if they are loaded to go sell stuff where they go cruising...again its not so much the boat but the guy steering it(and the brains behind the guy steering it)

but yeah there are some crap boats out there these days...oh well


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I always think these kinds of threads are goofy. I mean, what is "the standard" that a sailor must reach to be "qualified" to go cruising? Seriously. Until you can clearly define that - the only thing you can do is continually complain that some dude may not live up to your idea of it.

I say go. You'll either figure it out and have the time of your life, or you'll sink and die. The odds are overwhelmingly in your favor for the former if you have any intelligence at all.

Then, when you reach the far-away mooring with your GPS, let the uptight Sextant Toters sit around their table and gripe while you get rum-silly on the beach, thanking your lucky Garmins you're not as grumpy as them.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

travlineasy said:


> Well sports fans, the Straits Of Magellan were not discovered by Magellan. And, Magellan actually had some charts onboard, albeit crude charts at best, but he actually had charts.They were created by the Chinese treasure fleet and admiral Zheng He, who actually sailed through the straits nearly a century earlier. His charts clearly showed where he sailed to the Spice Islands in junks that measured 400 to 600 feet long and carried huge crews. Ironically, the spice they traded their silk and exquisite porcelain for was pepper, which at the time sold at 50 times the price of gold. Amazing. The charts were created prior to 1428, but Magellen didn't find the straits until 1520, nearly 100 years later. You'll find this and much, much more in "1421: The Year That China Discovered America." It's a fascinating book that I've been reading for the past three weeks.
> 
> The compass the Chinese invented was made from a stone bowel filled with seawater and a metal needle magnetized by rubbing it on loadstone and floated on the seawater using surface tension. Because seawater is far more dense than freshwater, the needle floated quite well.
> 
> ...


 There is controversy over the '1421' theory.

Here is Gavin Menzies' website.

PBS did a special on the book, here is the dvd. It is also listed on youtube.

Here is a site with contributions from professional historians detailing what they consider flaws in the 1421 theory.

The fact that Gavin Menzies is an amateur historian does not make him wrong, it simply means his assertions must be subject to and pass the same rigorous tests the professionals must pass. Amateurs have been right before: the Viking settlements in Newfounfland were finally accepted, and Heinrich Schliemann found Ilios (Troy) in the great mound at Hissarlik in Asia Minor.

I myself, being emotionally predisposed to accept his Atlantis theory, have to be especially skeptical of his work. I hope he is right. I will wait for physical evidence and proof.

(/threadjack)


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## MikeGuyver (Dec 13, 2008)

Well stated Smacky, and kudos to you. 
If someone wants to learn "real" navigation send them to Micronesia and see if they can figure out Etak, a conceptual plotting system that enables the navigator to track his position at sea without charts, sextant, compass or other aids to navigation used by their mariners for centuries. Then they can poo-poo us meer mortals that use modern instruments to follow our dreams.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> I always think these kinds of threads are goofy. I mean, what is "the standard" that a sailor must reach to be "qualified" to go cruising? Seriously. Until you can clearly define that - the only thing you can do is continually complain that some dude may not live up to your idea of it.
> 
> I say go. You'll either figure it out and have the time of your life, or you'll sink and die. The odds are overwhelmingly in your favor for the former.
> 
> Then let the uptight Sextant Toters sit around their table and gripe while you get rum-silly on the beach, thanking your lucky Garmins you're not as grumpy as them.


Are you the same smackdaddy who was railing at the 'Salty Dog Rally' folk for *not* having standards?


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

MikeGuyver said:


> Well stated Smacky, and kudos to you.
> If someone wants to learn "real" navigation send them to Micronesia and see if they can figure out Etak, a conceptual plotting system that enables the navigator to track his position at sea without charts, sextant, compass or other aids to navigation used by their mariners for centuries. Then they can poo-poo us meer mortals that use modern instruments to follow our dreams.


We are *not* saying, "Don't use modern instruments.", we are saying have an alternate set of skills for finding your way about when your modern instruments fail, whatever the cause of the failure.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

manatee said:


> We are *not* saying, "Don't use modern instruments.", we are saying have an alternate set of skills for finding your way about when your modern instruments fail, whatever the cause of the failure.


Like turn the back-up GPS on


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

manatee said:


> Are you the same smackdaddy who was railing at the 'Salty Dog Rally' folk for *not* having standards?


Yeah - that's me. But this is a different kettle of aardvarks.

If the complaint is that "it's the 'evil electronics' that are taking the 'true' seamanly skillz away"...meaning that you should not cruise until you know how to use a sextant and the constellation Xerxes to get to Jamaica...I don't buy it. Chartplotters/AIS/radar/etc. rock. And it's very easy to have plenty of backups for the chartplotting/GPS. Sure, I don't mind a paper chart around as a last resort - but I'd rather just stock extra AAs.

That said, if you want to start a rally and make the sextant and Xerxes the standard for entry - I'll back you 100% as long as you require adherence to ISAF safety regs.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> what is "the standard" that a sailor must reach to be "qualified" to go cruising?
> I think there's a very simple answer to that question.
> Someone is "qualified" when they can make a passage without asking other people to risk their lives to save them from a situation that is anything less than totally catastrophic. If one is not willing to agree to this, then one is not ready to go offshore.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Don0190 said:


> Like turn the back-up GPS on


Unless that doesn't work either. There is only one way for it to work properly, there are a myriad ways for it to fail.

A final star to Bermuda - Ocean Navigator - September 2013

"Always have an alternate plan." ~W. S. Kals

Or, as Dylan Winter puts it:

"Always have a plan C.

When plan A comes unstuck and plan B gets moved up the pecking order, then Plan C should be a serious proposition."


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> what is "the standard" that a sailor must reach to be "qualified" to go cruising?





capta said:


> I think there's a very simple answer to that question.
> Someone is "qualified" when they can make a passage without asking other people to risk their lives to save them from a situation that is anything less than totally catastrophic. If one is not willing to agree to this, then one is not ready to go offshore.


I can agree with that.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

I did not know much when I started. I had lots of near catostrophes. However, now, my most frequent problem is girlies trying to flush tampons (why don't they listen? Yes- its gross- but its grosser when I have to take off the outtake hose from the outtake seacock and use steel wire to hook and pull out said object to unclog the head.) and trying to keep the cabin sole free of dirt from being barefoot 24/7.
I very much enjoy sailing and living on a boat but I do want a nicer bigger boat with a wind-vane. $ talks.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

boatpoker said:


> Take away chartplotters and 98% would never leave the dock .....
> as opposed to the 90% that never leave it anyway :laugher


Man youve been hanging with the wrong crowd it seems...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Lou452 said:


> Why kick someone for trying to join the game ? If they leave the dock good for them ! If they just sit at the dock and dream good for them.
> Honey will bring ants to the picnic. Learning to sail is low on the list for most people Sharing a day or trying to add education an history is going to win them over.
> I am sure it is hard to watch people who do not have skill but how will they ever get skill with out a beginning ? If they are 16 or 60 they have to start at the beginning. Some may take one year to get to x proficient others ten. It is ok if you are in a hurry you would not be trying to sail.
> Money and performance rules. A hand held GPS will cost ? and will take how much time and skill to learn. A sexton cost ? and will take how much time and skill? They quit printing charts also. That kind of puts a knife in the beast. If you want people to know you will need to share with joy and pride the ability that you have.
> ...


Well said

When the experts start pontificating you wonder how they became experts.

-Was it something they drank
- was it a book they read
- was it something they found on a paper chart they couldnt find on a chartplotter
-was it something in a thought while they sat at the dock
-was it in their gentic makeup

Nahh,,,it was in the experiences they had...and how do you get that...by doing... and you have to start somewhere.

So how can you ridicule, put down or pass jusdgement on starting somewhere?

Get a sailnet liscence..they are free and handed out to anyone.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

travlineasy said:


> Well sports fans, the Straits Of Magellan were not discovered by Magellan. And, Magellan actually had some charts onboard, albeit crude charts at best, but he actually had charts.They were created by the Chinese treasure fleet and admiral Zheng He, who actually sailed through the straits nearly a century earlier. His charts clearly showed where he sailed to the Spice Islands in junks that measured 400 to 600 feet long and carried huge crews. Ironically, the spice they traded their silk and exquisite porcelain for was pepper, which at the time sold at 50 times the price of gold. Amazing. The charts were created prior to 1428, but Magellen didn't find the straits until 1520, nearly 100 years later. You'll find this and much, much more in "1421: The Year That China Discovered America." It's a fascinating book that I've been reading for the past three weeks.
> 
> The compass the Chinese invented was made from a stone bowel filled with seawater and a metal needle magnetized by rubbing it on loadstone and floated on the seawater using surface tension. Because seawater is far more dense than freshwater, the needle floated quite well.
> 
> ...


So the lesson to learn is charts are good...and important....even if they are wrong? The great Navigator Colombus,,,didnt have charts where he was going...neither did Vasco DeGamma.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

capta said:


> smackdaddy said:
> 
> 
> > what is "the standard" that a sailor must reach to be "qualified" to go cruising?
> ...


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Imagine those lucky bstards who get to live in the next age of discovery.. space! No charts just endless cosmos until its explored and colonized. Our future isincredible if we manage not to blow ourselves up first.

What id give to be an interstellar pirate..


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

I worry sometimes with threads like this we discourage people from participating in what may become a dying hobby. 

Sometimes I think the virtual world has taken over for young people. I can understand that, it's quite compelling. Who needs to leave home when you can simulate everything on a computer. Who needs to talk when we can text. Who needs to actually do something, the virtual world is so close to actual experience without consequence. And most scary, who needs to go sailing we can hang out here

I plead guilty to sometimes posting comments based on too many years experience that might be discouraging to new sailors. Sure, I think you should be careful and gain experience in steps. Yea, I don't like sending the coasties out after stupid. But I'm suggesting that us old guys keep that in balance, with the need to attract young sailors to the real non - virtual world of sailing. 

Nothing beats reality, and hardly anything real beats a beam reach with the wind blowing just right, the tiller talking to you, the sails trimmed just right and the spray flying off the bow.

For anyone new to sailing or thinking about it, please go do it. Listen to experience but don't be frightened off, and go out there and build some of your own. 

Be reasonable, don't try and take your sunfish transatlantic with a chart plotter and no paper charts on your first sail. Even with a sextant you might have trouble keeping the sight reduction tables dry

But please, do go sailing!


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

capecodda said:


> Sometimes I think the virtual world has taken over for young people. I can understand that, it's quite compelling. Who needs to leave home when you can simulate everything on a computer. Who needs to talk when we can text. Who needs to actually do something, the virtual world is so close to actual experience without consequence. And most scary, who needs to go sailing we can hang out here
> 
> But please, do go sailing!


Don't be offended, but whenever I read one of these, "Who needs to actually do something, the virtual world is so close to actual experience-without consequence",... I can only assume, you just aren't spending much time with kids today.

They do have a new virtual world, but that doesn't have to stop them, or you, or even slow you down. Smart kids use their tools to their advantage.

My daughter and her roommate seen sailing here in Cuttyhunk Pond this summer, have seen a great deal of the real world via Woofing programs, studies abroad and an endless line of cheap youth hostels. Julia on port is now in South Africa for a 2 year job in the Peace Corps. My daughter is headed to NYC for a paying job in today's fascinating world of sustainable agriculture.

My daughter, son, and a great deal of their friends sail every chance they get(same as we did, if raised in sailing families). They've plunged into a rapidly changing 'real' world, with both feet, and they have new tools, and they know how to use them.


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

boatpoker said:


> Take away chartplotters and 98% would never leave the dock .....
> as opposed to the 90% that never leave it anyway :laugher


You are SO correct. Sailboats are a kin to 5th wheel RV's that leave the driveway or storage yard 2 - 3 times a year. I just never had that kind of scratch to let that happen. I've been accused of being a live aboard because I'm at the boat at least twice a week. (We take her out out least monthly during the off season).

However folks... it's the DREAM, the draw to adventure, the imagination that tugs at you. If you've got that in you, all it takes is pirate movie and your hooked. (Pardon the Hook pun ).

It's a shame that folks head out under trained and under experienced and that some get themselves into harms way. But so do folks who hike, climb, swim, scube dive, parachute, cycle etc.. So we be good sailors and help them when we can (like we do here everyday ).

Times (technology) are a changing for sure. Back in the 80's I sailed every inch of SF Bay without any instruments or electronics (granted the US Navy put limitations on me; couldn't go out under small craft warning or fog or beyond the SF Bay bridge). Today there a so many gizmoes, folks get into trouble because of them. The younger folks who were raised with a fake i-phone instead of a toy... well they're hooked.

Are there really that many folks who go out to blue water who don't belong there?


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

TomMaine said:


> Don't be offended, but whenever I read one of these, "Who needs to actually do something, the virtual world is so close to actual experience-without consequence",... I can only assume, you just aren't spending much time with kids today.
> 
> Hey Tom, not only am I not offended, but I'm cheering you on!


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

chef2sail said:


> Same with a car...no one should call AAA. You shouldnt drive unless you can fix the car and any situation which mnay befall you. Boulderdash:laugher:laugher


I doubt that calling AAA is putting the person who comes to your aid at risk of DEATH very often. These guys jump from a helo into the sea in any weather to save folks and I believe it's a crime to ask them to do this for someone who really doesn't NEED saving? Because they are AFRAID? SEASICK? For a broken arm? Let's get real here.
NOT AT ALL THE SAME THING!


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

capecodda said:


> I worry sometimes with threads like this we discourage people from participating in what may become a dying hobby....


I agree. It's ironic that so many worry that sailing is losing popularity, but then ridicule those who try to stretch themselves a little beyond their comfort zone.

It can be argued that for those not going offshore, navigating is highly overrated. Most of our waterways are well marked, and if you're a daysailor you get familiar with your local waters very quickly.

Offshore rescues are relatively rare, and the ubiquitous presence of video cameras, YouTube, cable TV shows dedicated to rescue, etc., means that every one of the rescues gets maximum exposure. The statistics show the actual numbers of rescue sorties going down over the past couple of decades.

Everyone could stand to improve their navigation skills - there's always more to learn. But I would guess that 99.999% of sailors make it to their destinations safely, so let's show a little less disgust and a little more encouragement. The future of our sport may depend on it.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Yeah - that's me. But this is a different kettle of aardvarks.
> 
> If the complaint is that "it's the 'evil electronics' that are taking the 'true' seamanly skillz away"...meaning that you should not cruise until you know how to use a sextant and the constellation Xerxes to get to Jamaica...I don't buy it. Chartplotters/AIS/radar/etc. rock. And it's very easy to have plenty of backups for the chartplotting/GPS. Sure, I don't mind a paper chart around as a last resort - but I'd rather just stock extra AAs.
> 
> That said, if you want to start a rally and make the sextant and Xerxes the standard for entry - I'll back you 100% as long as you require adherence to ISAF safety regs.


I really don't see anyone arguing that electronic navigation is necessarily diminishing seamanlike skills... But I will argue - and have done so previously, of course  - is that one of the primary consequences of GPS, etc, is that _it has made it so easy for some to 'out-sail' their level of experience, and the learning of fundamental skills that have traditionally taken place closer to home, in a more familiar environment, and nearer to potential assistance..._

Yet again, I will cite the example of the RULE 62 tragedy in the Caribbean 1500 rally... Seems to me, a pretty clear example of someone undertaking a passage that he never would have considered if he had to rely on his own ability to find his own way to the islands... Heading offshore with an untested crew, apparently lacking any appreciation for that most basic bluewater tactic, heaving-to... Obviously having little prior experience running inlets along a coast where one could learn about doing so in an environment using marked/dredged channels, and glean advice from others with extensive local knowledge... So, instead, he begins his 'education' in a panic, attempting to run an unmarked cut in a remote location, at night, in an astoundingly foolhardy example of reliance upon electronic charts, and positioning, and in total neglect of the most fundamental elements of seamanship...

I know others disagree, but IMHO, a classic example of a 'GPS-enabled/assisted' mishap... No way he would have been there to begin with sans GPS, and no way would he have attempted that passage through an unmarked/unlit Bahamian cut, during a rage, without it...


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## az_r2d1 (Jul 4, 2013)

Every sailor should start in a small (< 20ft) open boat and use it for at least a season.
They should learn about tides, depths, winds, etc.
Then move to bigger.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

capecodda said:


> I worry sometimes with threads like this we discourage people from participating in what may become a dying hobby.


If that *were* happening, wouldn't boat prices and mooring/dock fees be dropping, and boat parking easier to find? Of course, that could be the reason for the scary stories - make more room for those already afloat. 

It can't hurt to learn how things can go wrong, and how someone coped when the excrement impacted the air-impeller.

"Reading won't make you an able seaman, able to cope with all that the sea, weather, and failure of gear may throw at you. But reading about seamanship is buying experience without getting wet." ~~ W. S. Kals ~~


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

desert rat said:


> I could use suggestions as to what books would be best or even adequate on the
> subject of navigation. Almost all the books on line are from used book sellers.


Among those available from used book sellers are two that have served generations of sailors well and provide a solid foundation even in the GPS age:

Dutton's Nautical Navigation, 15th Edition: Thomas J. Cutler: 9781557502483: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51RGVJMSGNL

The American Practical Navigator: Bowditch: NIMA: 9780939837540: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%[email protected]@[email protected]@51%2BpRk7O7HL

They are sorta like the Amex card: don't leave home without them.


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

This thread just looks like another thread that separates the "us" from "them" and makes people feel good about themselves. Sorry, I find these just plain sad.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

manatee said:


> If that *were* happening, wouldn't boat prices and mooring/dock fees be dropping, and boat parking easier to find?


Used boat prices are dropping.

New boat prices are not dropping, but the cost of materials, labor, liability, etc. are not dropping, so what happens instead is that boat manufacturers reduce production or go out of business to keep supply in line the declining demand.

Similarly, the costs of running a marina are such that it becomes impossible to make an acceptable profit with declining prices, so marinas go out of business rather than lower prices.

You can't assume that every drop in demand results in lower prices. Often a drop in demand leads to a reduction in supply because businesses cease to exist. The remaining businesses are then able to keep prices stable.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Mea Culpa, My celestial was rude & crude 50 years ago and has improved only because local celestial data is now readily available on my GPS.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

67 years and I still can;'t type.


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

Blondie Hasler sailed his boat Jester In a few OSTAR races . First times he used a sextant , that was back in the 60's . In a interview before his last one he was being questioned about the use of his sextant , he said and I quote . What for I have GPS .


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

AlaskaMC said:


> This thread just looks like another thread that separates the "us" from "them" and makes people feel good about themselves. Sorry, I find these just plain sad.


Here's something else you may find just plain sad...

Laura Zekoll - Raley & Raley Secures Settlement in Bahamas Death Case | Raley Law Firm


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

bobperry said:


> 67 years and I still can;'t type.


Maybe not, but you sure do make nice boats!


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Here's something else you may find just plain sad...
> 
> Laura Zekoll - Raley & Raley Secures Settlement in Bahamas Death Case | Raley Law Firm


Wow. Very sad indeed.

In fact, I bet I could search the internet and come up with example after example of similar tragedies repeated in many pursuits throughout history. And then I could comment on how much better prepared I would be than they were. I am sure it would make me feel better about myself.

Problem is that I am very well prepared in the pursuits I have followed in life. I have seen the preverbal poo hit the fan too many times to too many well prepared people to point fingers. Discuss what could have been done better? Great. But it seems to be that there is always a thread in the top of General Interest that has more to do with acting superior than finding solutions. Seems contrary to the very open, helpful, encouraging posts they sit nearby.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

capecodda said:


> i worry sometimes with threads like this we discourage people from participating in what may become a dying hobby.
> 
> Sometimes i think the virtual world has taken over for young people. I can understand that, it's quite compelling. Who needs to leave home when you can simulate everything on a computer. Who needs to talk when we can text. Who needs to actually do something, the virtual world is so close to actual experience without consequence. And most scary, who needs to go sailing we can hang out here
> 
> ...


^^^this!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> I really don't see anyone arguing that electronic navigation is necessarily diminishing seamanlike skills... But I will argue - and have done so previously, of course  - is that one of the primary consequences of GPS, etc, is that _it has made it so easy for some to 'out-sail' their level of experience, and the learning of fundamental skills that have traditionally taken place closer to home, in a more familiar environment, and nearer to potential assistance..._


Dude, seriously, you are the KING of arguing that electronics degrade seamanship (chartplotters vs. paper charts, etc.). Don't make me dig up all your posts showing this to be true.

Now, as to the specific issue of GPS enabling some to "out-sail their level of experience" - I think that's a pretty squishy argument. And your use of _Rule 62_ to support that argument is not real strong either.

Again, you need to be more specific about what experience you expect that sailor to have prior to using the GPS to get places. The GPS actually got _Rule 62_ to the exact place they wanted to be. It did its job. And the skipper was obviously experienced enough to navigate to that spot in pretty bad conditions.

The problem was not the electronics (i.e. - that the paper charts would have been better), it was a very poor decision by the skipper to try to run the cut in those conditions. Those are two completely different issues....unless you're saying he would have not made that same decision had he been using paper charts.

You like the old-school way of doing things. That's okay. But it's not the only or the best way of doing things. These electronics are incredible tools that make sailing far safer than it used to be. Sure, you can still make a very bad decision - but you'll make that decision in the _precise_ spot you wanted to be.

(PS - Is it the GPS or the rally that pulls these inexperienced sailors away from their familiar environment? At least that boat was prepped according to ISAF regs. Heh-heh.)


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

smackdaddy said:


> The problem was not the electronics (i.e. - that the paper charts would have been better), it was a very poor decision by the skipper to try to run the cut in those conditions. Those are two completely different issues....unless you're saying he would have not made that same decision had he been using paper charts.


Can't agree more. Vessels get into trouble at sea and the event is stored away in our memories to be dredged up again when there is an argument about the use of electronic kit.

The truth is that most distress at sea is caused by the skipper's inability to manage winds over 50 knots and big seas or the failure of far more fundamental equipment than the electronics (masts, sails, rudders etc.) and poor decisions not related to navigation.

Is the decision to go to sea with a vessel that is perhaps unsuitable for the conditions the skipper is likely to encounter made easier by the presence of a GPS or plotter or whatever? Well, yes maybe, but the GPS simply removes one decision out of many - "Do I know where I am going?" is sort of taken out of the equation. There are many other choices of equal or more importance that are made without reference to electronics.

I guess if one is going to argue that the absence of a GPS is going to reduce the number of people who find themselves in unmanageable conditions then perhaps there is a justifiable argument there.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> > Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> > I really don't see anyone arguing that electronic navigation is necessarily diminishing seamanlike skills... But I will argue - and have done so previously, of course  - is that one of the primary consequences of GPS, etc, is that it has made it so easy for some to 'out-sail' their level of experience, and the learning of fundamental skills that have traditionally taken place closer to home, in a more familiar environment, and nearer to potential assistance...
> 
> 
> Dude, seriously, you are the KING of arguing that electronics degrade seamanship (chartplotters vs. paper charts, etc.). Don't make me dig up all your posts showing this to be true.


Well, I'd like to see where I've ever asserted that the presence of electronics aboard a boat - _by definition_ - necessarily leads to a degradation of seamanship...

Certainly, I won't deny that I've often voiced my opinion that many sailors out there today are placing too great a reliance, or too blind a faith in such gizmos... And, I've certainly cited examples where I consider such to be the case... But that seems a rather significant distinction, to your characterization of what I've stated above...



smackdaddy said:


> Now, as to the specific issue of GPS enabling some to "out-sail their level of experience" - I think that's a pretty squishy argument.


We'll just have to agree to disagree, I have only my own observations culled from roughly 40 years in the delivery game to support my view...



smackdaddy said:


> And your use of _Rule 62_ to support that argument is not real strong either.


Well, I believe the end result of the loss of RULE 62 speaks for itself, and think it represents the quintessential example of a skipper 'out-sailing' his level of experience...

We'll never know for certain, of course, none of the crew has ever spoken publicly of what transpired, there has never been written any 'definitive' account of the voyage from start to finish (quite the contrary, there has been a virtual media blackout of the story after the initial reports that were published) the Bahamians have never issued a final investigative report on the incident, the testimony and evidence presented of the civil suit have not been made public, to the best of my knowledge...



smackdaddy said:


> Again, you need to be more specific about what experience you expect that sailor to have prior to using the GPS to get places. The GPS actually got _Rule 62_ to the exact place they wanted to be. It did its job.


That's odd, it was my understanding their destination after departing Hampton with the 1500 was the BVIs... I seriously doubt that finding themselves at the approach to an unlit, unmarked cut in the southern Abacos, at night, during a rage, with a crew apparently desperate to get off than damn boat as soon as possible, was exactly "where they wanted to be"...

However, I suppose it always is good to know, after you've wrecked your boat on a small cay in the Bahamas, precisely where she sits - absent her mast, keel, and rudder - within a meter or two... 

Well, at least those who wound up looking for Laura Zekoll's body had the advantage of knowing _precisely_ where to begin their search...



smackdaddy said:


> And the skipper was obviously experienced enough to navigate to that spot in pretty bad conditions.


Uhhh, _are you freakin' serious???_ 

Damn, I'd love to see what evidence there is to support the notion that the skipper was "obviously experienced enough" to have pulled off a 'feat of seamanship' whose brilliance was right up there on a par with sailing the BOUNTY straight into Hurricane Sandy...

I cannot think of _anyone_ I've ever met or known, who would consider themselves sufficiently 'experienced' to have attempted that entrance, in those conditions... Or, who viewed his decision to do so, as nothing short of unfathomable... And, I doubt there are any natives of the Abacos themselves - those most familiar with the waters, and the conditions that existed that night - who would view that move as having been anything other than simply nuts, particularly for someone apparently unfamiliar with the area...



smackdaddy said:


> The problem was not the electronics (i.e. - that the paper charts would have been better), it was a very poor decision by the skipper to try to run the cut in those conditions. Those are two completely different issues....*unless you're saying he would have not made that same decision had he been using paper charts.*


That is _precisely_ what I have always been saying... IMHO, there is no way he would have attempted that entrance, at that time, using paper charts alone, without the ability to play the "Just-Keep-the-Boat's-Icon-On-the-Dotted-Line Video Game"... If, indeed, he would have attempted that passage relying on paper charts alone, well... then he could only be considered even dumber than previously thought 



smackdaddy said:


> You like the old-school way of doing things. That's okay. But it's not the only or the best way of doing things.


Again, I'd love to see where I have ever taken such a position... I believe I've made it clear several times, that the use of GPS and e-charts is most often my primary means of navigation, for example...



smackdaddy said:


> These electronics are incredible tools that make sailing far safer than it used to be.


I wholeheartedly agree, and I embrace these tools myself both when on a delivery, or when sailing my own boat... Hell, I'd venture a guess that my little 30' tub is equipped with more e-gizmos than 99% of the boats of her size out there today...

However, I would add the caveat that they only _PROVIDE THE OPPORTUNITY_ to make sailing safer...It's always about _how_ such tools are employed by the end user, of course. Their mere presence aboard any boat does not necessarily enhance safety, for if they did, we would likely not still see US Navy minesweepers piling up on reefs in the Pacific today, for instance...

But, I cannot understand why I've had such difficulty making myself understood on this issue, and that it is not necessarily an Either/Or proposition... Why is it so hard to accept the notion that yes - while electronic navigation has made sailing and cruising safer, and more 'accessible' to many than ever before - it can simultaneously pose a danger to those who may not 'Know what they don't know', or fully understand the risk or fundamentally unsound seamanship such as entering an unfamiliar entrance at night?



smackdaddy said:


> Sure, you can still make a very bad decision - but you'll make that decision in the _precise_ spot you wanted to be.


Congratulations, you've just made perhaps the most common, and elemental mistaken assumption one can make in the modern era of New Age Seamanship... Namely, the misplaced _Faith in Electronic Infallibility_ 

Some of the worst decisions ever made on the water, have likely been influenced by the 'Illusion of Precision/Accuracy', and the dismissal of the very real possibility that your position being indicated on your chart, may not necessarily match where you are in The Real World...

You know, sort of akin to the Redskins running a play on Sunday night, thinking it was 1st & 10 due to the zebras mistakenly moving the chains, when in reality they were facing a 3rd & less than a yard 












smackdaddy said:


> (PS - Is it the GPS or the rally that pulls these inexperienced sailors away from their familiar environment? *At least that boat was prepped according to ISAF regs.* Heh-heh.)


Uhhh, and that made exactly _WHAT DIFFERENCE_, in the end?


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> The problem was not the electronics (i.e. - that the paper charts would have been better), it was a very poor decision by the skipper to try to run the cut in those conditions. Those are two completely different issues....unless you're saying he would have not made that same decision had he been using paper charts.


I've had this argument with my friend Jon a few times.  You have the answer. Even as navigation technology evolves, mistakes have always been made and will continue. Only a poor craftsmen blames his tools for a poor job.

For instance the photo Jon loves of the boat icon in the field. Most of us would have stopped following that when we saw cows ahead. Navigation is a series of systems including eyesight.

It's the olde salt vs newbie argument. Doing some research, I was thinking, Robin Lee had it easy. The old salts that proceeded him had much less accurate charts, few navigational aids, and many of them had to sail everywhere engine less.

At the turn of the last century, shipwrecks around the coast of Cape Cod were being recorded at the rate of one every two weeks!

Better navigational tools are the way to go, shipwrecks like the one Jon posts regularly, will never end.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, I believe the end result of the loss of RULE 62 speaks for itself, and think it represents the quintessential example of a skipper 'out-sailing' his level of experience...
> 
> That's odd, it was my understanding their destination after departing Hampton with the 1500 was the BVIs... I seriously doubt that finding themselves at the approach to an unlit, unmarked cut in the southern Abacos, at night, during a rage, *with a crew apparently desperate to get off than damn boat as soon as possible*, was exactly "where they wanted to be"...
> 
> However, I suppose it always is good to know, after you've wrecked your boat on a small cay in the Bahamas, precisely where she sits - absent her mast, keel, and rudder - within a meter or two...


Again, I don't see that he "out-sailed his experience". He made a very poor decision in a place with which he was unfamiliar in conditions that were deadly.

The point of this thread is navigation. And he was able to _navigate to that spot_ just fine using electronics. His sailing experience served him fine to that point.

The ONLY issue at play with this _Rule 62_ incident that you're so obsessed with is that of his decision to run that cut once they arrived. Nothing else. It was clearly a very bad decision...likely made for the bolded reason above.

It is simply a fact that as sailors we will ALWAYS be pulling into ports and cuts that we have no experience with. THAT'S CRUISING FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!! The electronics will serve us very will in helping us safely navigate to that spot. Then it's up to us to make good decisions when we get there.

This incident says nothing more than that...though you try mightily.



JonEisberg said:


> Uhhh, _are you freakin' serious???_
> 
> Damn, I'd love to see what evidence there is to support the notion that the skipper was "obviously experienced enough" to have pulled off a 'feat of seamanship' whose brilliance was right up there on a par with sailing the BOUNTY straight into Hurricane Sandy...
> 
> I cannot think of _anyone_ I've ever met or known, who would consider themselves sufficiently 'experienced' to have attempted that entrance, in those conditions... Or, who viewed his decision to do so, as nothing short of unfathomable... And, I doubt there are any natives of the Abacos themselves - those most familiar with the waters, and the conditions that existed that night - who would view that move as having been anything other than simply nuts, particularly for someone apparently unfamiliar with the area...


Again, you misunderstand. I didn't say he had enough experience to attempt that entrance. I said he had the experience and the electronic tools to safely _navigate to that spot_ (the thrust of this thread). It was just the wrong spot and the wrong time...and back to the necessity of making the right calls when you arrive at your destination (e.g. - stay off-shore until daylight, wait for calmer conditions, sail to the lee side of the island, whatever...).



JonEisberg said:


> That is _precisely_ what I have always been saying... IMHO, there is no way he would have attempted that entrance, at that time, using paper charts alone, without the ability to play the "Just-Keep-the-Boat's-Icon-On-the-Dotted-Line Video Game"... If, indeed, he would have attempted that passage relying on paper charts alone, well... then he could only be considered even dumber than previously thought


I suppose it would be exactly the same problem if the sailor stayed down below with his paper charts and plotted his position every 10 minutes without leaving the nav table. Either scenario is pretty unlikely with sane people - at least over the longer haul.



JonEisberg said:


> Congratulations, you've just made perhaps the most common, and elemental mistaken assumption one can make in the modern era of New Age Seamanship... Namely, the misplaced _Faith in Electronic Infallibility_
> 
> Some of the worst decisions ever made on the water, have likely been influenced by the 'Illusion of Precision/Accuracy', and the dismissal of the very real possibility that your position being indicated on your chart, may not necessarily match where you are in The Real World...


So paper charts are infallible? Dude, please. This is a problem regardless of the medium. You certainly are not making a case for one being any better than the other. In fact, for most all sailors, the accuracy of the GPS position will ALWAYS be better than if they were plotting their course on paper.

That said, I did see this issue firsthand on a past delivery I crewed on. We were in a marked channel heading out to sea from the marina. The skipper was at the helm futzing with the chartplotter and I was sitting on the foredeck...watching us head straight for a marker pylon. I waited for him to turn...and waited. I yelled back to him and pointed. He looked up from the chartplotter, eyes wide at the approaching pylon and turned hard to starboard, putting us firmly in the mud. He said the icon on the chartplotter indicated we were in the middle of the channel (about 20' off).

So, I completely agree with you that it's a good idea to look where you're going every once in a while whether you're using paper or plastic. But the same thing could have happened with either, so let's ease up a bit on the PacMan analogies. The above grounding was a momentary lapse...it certainly wasn't a habit as this guy is a very experienced, very good skipper. I think the real issue here is that most sane people don't typically use chartplotters like you think they do.



JonEisberg said:


> Uhhh, and that made exactly _WHAT DIFFERENCE_, in the end?


Psst - the ISAF thing was a joke. As a matter of fact, you have to wonder if having a liferaft aboard was their undoing. Of course, none of that matters. As I've said, it all came down to that one bad decision. It always does.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

bad use of gps can lead to this...thats why I never really completely rely on the gps maps for accurate scaled positions...no matter how perfect they say they are vs. paper charts

i have seen many a time that exact same screen when playing around with my gps and its an error to use that certain map scale for your position...

I use gps to mark my *spot*, look at correct scaled chart if possible, and I also use the heading/compass bearing screens...as well as the basic speed over ground screen and vmg screen, these are basically the only practical and safe functions to use all the time...in my humble opinion.

even the track back screens fail in the water sometimes...on land they are a bit more precise since you are still...I used it many a time to get out of a dodgy motorcycle trail where you couldnt locate the sun or look up.

while the advance in gps technology is better I still would never trust one infallibly to cross a slim chanel or bar etc...for that you have your eyes and any cruising guide with local or confirmed experience...

again Ive posted this on another thread before *OVERRELIANCE* on any *single AID TO NAVIGATION* is a recipe for disaster...

you have been warned!!!! jajaja

cheers


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

TomMaine said:


> I've had this argument with my friend Jon a few times.  You have the answer. Even as navigation technology evolves, mistakes have always been made and will continue. Only a poor craftsmen blames his tools for a poor job.
> 
> For instance the photo Jon loves of the boat icon in the field. Most of us would have stopped following that when we saw cows ahead. Navigation is a series of systems including eyesight.


Of course, I only used that pic yet again to dispell smack's assertion that GPS will always tell you "precisely" where you are 

Still, it's hard to overstate the reliance some might place on what they're seeing on their plotter, I was reminded of this just two weeks ago...

I generally try to avoid running boats with the owner aboard, but sometimes it's unavoidable  In this case, however, it was a total pleasure, the owner a great guy, and we had a wonderful trip...

After an overnight run down the Chesapeake, we had cleared the gauntlet of bridges thru Norfolk, and were running down the beautiful, lazy winding river section between the North Landing Bridge and Pungo Ferry... I had handed the helm over to the owner for awhile, with the basic instruction to 'follow the curve' of the river, try not to cut any corners by running directly from one mark to the next, and keep in mind that the deeper water will generally be found to the outside of the curves...

However, much of his attention was focused on keeping the boat's icon on the Magenta Line... Hmmm, difficult to imagine how that could possibly happen, this being the view from the helm of that boat, and all... 










Needless to say, we lightly touched bottom once, and slowed suddenly another time after straying into very shallow water, in the course of a couple of miles where the massive tugs running through that section of the Ditch help maintain a pretty consistent channel close to the project depth of 12 feet... In each instance, when I popped my head back out the companionway, he protested "But, the plotter is showing us to be DEAD CENTER of the channel!"... 

But, hey, it happens to the best of us... The recent report released on the PRICEWATERHOUSECOOPERS tragedy in Oz, when 2 were lost after a hugely experienced racing crew drove their large yacht straight into Flinders Island at night, makes for some interesting reading, and a cautionary tale...



> Andrew Short showed no concern about the navigation situation and was apparently content with what he was observing on the chart plotter and could see ahead. He did not ask for any reports from the bow of the boat or ask any crew member to lookout forward.
> 
> The Inquiry has noted the high degree of reliance placed in the chart plotter and associated GPS navigation system in navigating PwC. While these systems are capable of being accurate to within a fewmetres they are also subject to a number of variable errors which can degrade the accuracy significantly.
> 
> ...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

a very similar thing happened in california near the channel islands, crew were asleep, boat on autopilot smack right into a small island and they died...

the plotter wasnt scaled enough to show this little island in their perfectly marked course...

so sad

safe sailing guys


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


>


Good illustration of your point! But I'm surprised that a sailor of your skills would post it without some further analysis of exactly what went wrong. Did the GPS lock in on the wrong corrdinates? (very rare in my still-limited experience) Or was the chart incorrectly calibrated or the wrong projection? (much more common)

I plugged your coordinates into Google and saw this:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=N+47+40.293'+W+58+13.489'+&hl=en&sll=47.670474,-58.225136&sspn=0.019073,0.026007&t=h&ie=UTF8&ll=47.670878,-58.224406&spn=0.004768,0.006856&z=14&output=embed
View Larger Map

Zoom in on this satellite pic and it's pretty clear that you were actually at the point that your chartplotter labels as the Govt. Wharf lighthouse. So I suspect that your chartplotter's map was mis-calibrated or incorrect projection. Agree?

A few years ago I did a day cruise on a powered catamaran in the BVI. The skipper knew his way around, so I decided to capture his local knowledge by recording a track on my handheld GPS. I was then able to lay the track over a variety of charts - both the Garmin bluechart, NOAA chart, and US NGA chart. The track shown below is our landing at customs/immigration at Jost van Dyke. You can see that the Garmin chart had a severe calibration error, and the NOAA chart had a different calibration error. The NGA chart was right on. Guess which chart I decided to use last year when we went back for a bareboat charter? One very important point here is that the NOAA chart is just a scan of their printed chart, so you would have exactly the same error on the printed chart!


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> Of course, I only used that pic yet again to dispell smack's assertion that GPS will always tell you "precisely" where you are


In the example you showed, which I commented on above, I think the GPS was showing precisely where you were (coordinates were correct). The problem looks to me like it was with the chart had the land masses in the wrong place.

So the problem isn't the GPS, but the chart that's embedded in the GPS. There is a difference between the two, and it's important to understand.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

yes its the scale of the CHARTS, sometimes you must zoom out to be correct...some gps do this better than others as do nav sofware...not all are created equal and you can only dispell myths by trying them out


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## gershel (Feb 4, 2001)

You're right Gary. I read this book several years ago while sailing south. Fascinating.
Marc


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## DJR351 (Mar 3, 2010)

What never ceases to amaze me whenever this never ending topic raises it's head, is the amount of people that seem determined _NOT_ to learn how to navigate without the use of electronics, what are these individuals scared of, it's not rocket science....

Thankfully for me I had to learn how to get around without electronics, otherwise I would have had to find another trade.....


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

DJR351 said:


> What never ceases to amaze me whenever this never ending topic raises it's head, is the amount of people that seem determined _NOT_ to learn how to navigate without the use of electronics, what are these individuals scared of, it's not rocket science....
> 
> Thankfully for me I had to learn how to get around without electronics, otherwise I would have had to find another trade.....


I'm not one of those. I want to know all I can - so I'm learning. The thing I'm arguing is that the electronics are fantastic tools that are supplanting the need for paper/manual navigation. Paper is a great back-up. But it's a backup that is becoming less and less important as there is more and more redundancy in the electronic positioning. Now that's rocket science I can get behind...because I'm not scared.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

DJR351 said:


> What never ceases to amaze me whenever this never ending topic raises it's head, is the amount of people that seem determined _NOT_ to learn how to navigate without the use of electronics, what are these individuals scared of, it's not rocket science....


I count *zero* people on this thread who are determined not to learn how to navigate. Nobody has said that.

I see a lot of people who argue (correctly, IMO) that the old-fashioned skills are significantly enhanced by the use of electronics.

As for myself, I learned "the old fashioned way" as a kid, and took ASA 105 a few years ago as a refresher to make sure I still remembered everything. That's how determined I was to make sure I didn't know how to do it.


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## DJR351 (Mar 3, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> I count *zero* people on this thread who are determined not to learn how to navigate. Nobody has said that.


I never said anyone here did, and this may come as a huge shock to you but this topic is discussed repeatedly elsewhere.......sometimes even in person  SailNet is not the centre of the universe....


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

DJR351 said:


> I never said anyone here did...


You said this:


DJR351 said:


> ...whenever this never ending topic raises it's (_sic_) head, is the amount of people that seem determined _NOT_ to learn how to navigate without the use of electronics...


Your use of the word "whenever" strongly suggests that you were referring to the people in this discussion.


DJR351 said:


> ...this may come as a huge shock to you but this topic is discussed repeatedly elsewhere.......sometimes even in person  SailNet is not the centre of the universe....


I suggest you lose the attitude. Insulting the people that you're trying to convince is rarely a successful strategy.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> But, hey, it happens to the best of us... The recent report released on the PRICEWATERHOUSECOOPERS tragedy in Oz, when 2 were lost after a hugely experienced racing crew drove their large yacht straight into Flinders Island at night, makes for some interesting reading, and a cautionary tale...


Those type of accidents are tough.

The cause never changes though, whether today you're looking at a chartplotter or a century ago, looking at a chart, when you hit an "immovable object", your mistake is;

Operator inattention and/or improper lookout. They're still the leaders in causing grounding accidents. Third leading cause is inexperience.


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## DJR351 (Mar 3, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> You said this:
> 
> Your use of the word "whenever" strongly suggests that you were referring to the people in this discussion.
> 
> I suggest you lose the attitude. Insulting the people that you're trying to convince is rarely a successful strategy.


You can think and take it anyway you like my son, but their was no intention to reference or insult anyone anywhere, it was an observation over time, and I'm certainly not interested in trying to convince anyone of anything....

Your the one reading to much into my post and developing the attitude, I was in a good mood till you stepped in.....


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

az_r2d1:1175633 said:


> Every sailor should start in a small (< 20ft) open boat and use it for at least a season.
> They should learn about tides, depths, winds, etc.
> Then move to bigger.


I strongly disagree with you on this. Learn all you can on the boat you are comfortable with. A lot of people in the real world do not start out sailing in their teens. There are lots of older folk cruising the oceans in their first boat, and doing it well.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

DJR351 said:


> What never ceases to amaze me whenever this never ending topic raises it's head, is the amount of people that seem determined _NOT_ to learn how to navigate without the use of electronics, what are these individuals scared of, it's not rocket science....


Well, for me it's about cost.

I know that one can continue to use a nautical almanac years after it is invalid and your position will only be "a little bit wrong" but if you want to do it right (and for me it is either that or why bother) you have to renew the tables annually and they're not cheap, at least in NZ they're not.

I still do use a sextant and a set of redundant tables but I do it for fun. I don't depend on the results.

And while we're discussing the cost, a good quality sextant (in NZ about $2500 and please don't tell me about the Davis Plasticfantastic MkII) is a lot more expensive than a decent hand-held GPS (in NZ about $180) and when you stumble and drop the GPS, 98% of the time it will still work.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Again, I don't see that he "out-sailed his experience". He made a very poor decision in a place with which he was unfamiliar in conditions that were deadly.
> 
> The point of this thread is navigation. And he was able to _navigate to that spot_ just fine using electronics. His sailing experience served him fine to that point.


Yeah, well - except for the minor little detail of crew selection, and being forced to divert to the Bahamas less than halfway down the rhumbline because his crew was not up to dealing with the sort of conditions typically encountered in the 1500... Sure, we all know that crew selection for a bluewater passage has little to do with, or gives little indication of, a skipper's previous sailing experience 



smackdaddy said:


> The ONLY issue at play with this _Rule 62_ incident that you're so obsessed with is that of his decision to run that cut once they arrived. Nothing else. It was clearly a very bad decision...likely made for the bolded reason above.


Exactly... That's why I suggest he had 'out-sailed' his level of experience. He had likely never dealt with a crew (likely including himself) so desperate to get off the boat, they would be willing to disregard all of the far better options available to him that night... He obviously had little experience running inlets closer to home - places like St Augustine, or Ponce Inlet, perhaps... Otherwise, he would have recognized the extraordinary foolishness of attempting that entrance, in those conditions... My hunch is that he had likely _never, EVER_ employed the tactic of heaving-to offshore - for if he had, he would have appreciated that doing so, and waiting for daylight, would have been the ONLY seamanlike course of action, even for one so determined to transit the North Bar Channel during a rage...



smackdaddy said:


> It is simply a fact that as sailors we will ALWAYS be pulling into ports and cuts that we have no experience with. THAT'S CRUISING FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!


Right, I keep forgetting, that Old School admonition against entering strange harbors - particularly unmarked/unlit ones - _AT NIGHT, and with a formidable swell running_ - is just SO outmoded, today 



smackdaddy said:


> *So paper charts are infallible?* Dude, please. This is a problem regardless of the medium. You certainly are not making a case for one being any better than the other.


Hmmm, where have I ever suggested that?

Damn, I should have taken a pic of my position marked on the appropriate paper companion of my C-Map chart of Grand Bruit, posted above... It would have shown my boat well inland, as well...



smackdaddy said:


> In fact, for most all sailors, the accuracy of the GPS position will ALWAYS be better than if they were plotting their course on paper.


Uhhh, you do realize that some of us dinosaurs might actually rely on GPS to do whatever plotting we may do on paper, no?



smackdaddy said:


> That said, I did see this issue firsthand on a past delivery I crewed on. We were in a marked channel heading out to sea from the marina. The skipper was at the helm futzing with the chartplotter and I was sitting on the foredeck...watching us head straight for a marker pylon. I waited for him to turn...and waited. I yelled back to him and pointed. He looked up from the chartplotter, eyes wide at the approaching pylon and turned hard to starboard, putting us firmly in the mud. He said the icon on the chartplotter indicated we were in the middle of the channel (about 20' off).
> 
> So, I completely agree with you that it's a good idea to look where you're going every once in a while whether you're using paper or plastic. But the same thing could have happened with either, so let's ease up a bit on the PacMan analogies. The above grounding was a momentary lapse...it certainly wasn't a habit as this guy is a very experienced, very good skipper.


Well, thanks for making one of my points, how 'seductive' that technology can sometimes be, how easily distracted even the most experienced 'drivers' can become... Especially when the means of navigation is placed at their fingertips at the helm, rather than at a nav station, below...

But, of course, newbies or sailors of lesser experience than your friend, would never succumb to such temptation, become distracted, or assume that what they're seeing on their displays represents anything other than the One True Picture 



smackdaddy said:


> I think the real issue here is that most sane people don't typically use chartplotters like you think they do.


Hey, I only know what my own lyin' eyes and ears have shown me over the years... 

Oops, looks like I might not be the only one:



> October 25, 2013, 5:17 pm
> 
> And don't even get me started on the, "app for that" crowd. We've nearly been hit twice by boats skippered by people staring at 50×100 mm "chartplotters.".
> 
> Want to Get Out Cruising? Don?t Be a Pioneer


And, on occasion, what I read... Take the investigative report on the PwC tragedy I cited above, for example...

Hmmm, are you suggesting that the skipper of that 80' carbon fiber Maxi that took line honors in the 2008 Newport-Bermuda Race - among many other notable race results - was _not sane?_ 



> *The crew report that Andrew was content with what he was observing on the chart plotter to which he was making frequent reference. He showed no concern about the navigation situation and was not seeking any confirmation from the bow or any other crew member sitting on the windward rail.* The conclusion is that the chart plotter must have been indicating the boat was safe and would pass the island at a safe distance.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

TomMaine said:


> > Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> >
> > But, hey, it happens to the best of us... The recent report released on the PRICEWATERHOUSECOOPERS tragedy in Oz, when 2 were lost after a hugely experienced racing crew drove their large yacht straight into Flinders Island at night, makes for some interesting reading, and a cautionary tale...
> 
> ...


Yeah, but don't you think that when you stick something like this at the steering wheel...










...that the risk of the driver becoming 'distracted' might be at least _SOMEWHAT_ more likely, than when the directions were being given by someone sitting in the passenger seat, with a paper map in hand? 

And, need I remind you that when you turn on one of those after dark, inside of one of _THESE_...










...well, distracted or not, then you are truly Flying Blind in terms of your ability to see much of _anything_ outside the boat?


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

jameswilson29 said:


> Nothing has changed in 50 years...many sailors still can't navigate...


The fact that you can get lost impacts me minimally other than my tax dollar being spent to rescue you from yourself..

*I would MUCH rather see folks learn the COLREGS and learn HOW TO ANCHOR, first......*

When this guy dragged into us at 0600, in 12-15 knots, the LAST thing on my mind was "_I hope this guy knows DR and has a sextant on-board._"..










No, I was thinking; "This f'ing clown needs to learn how to ANCHOR his damn boat! 12-15 knots and he drags into me, sheesh!!"....

BASIC, BASIC, BASIC skills eg: anchoring and COLREGS, should be the first priority!!!


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

amen!

edit: beautiful boat btw


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> Good illustration of your point! But I'm surprised that a sailor of your skills would post it without some further analysis of exactly what went wrong. Did the GPS lock in on the wrong corrdinates? (very rare in my still-limited experience) Or was the chart incorrectly calibrated or the wrong projection? (much more common)
> 
> I plugged your coordinates into Google and saw this:
> 
> ...


Nothing "went wrong" on the day I took that pic, it would be the same if I returned there today...

About halfway across the SW coast of Newfoundland, there occurs an error/horizontal datum offset that remains on CHS charts to this day... There are numerous offsets elsewhere in Atlantic Canada, most particularly in northern Labrador... Even with the release of a new series of charts of that region, many problems with datum offsets and widely unsurveyed areas apparently remain... Google Earth will eventually resolve many of these issues around the world, but most American cruisers are truly spoiled by the accuracy of our own charts, it certainly ain't that way everywhere else 

Hell, even here there are still numerous examples of such inaccuracies... Take a trip on the Erie Canal, for example, and you will sometimes find your boat literally on 'the wrong side of the tracks' of the railroad that parallels much of the canal...

One major gripe I have, I feel the purveyors of today's E-charting gear and software are not doing as much as they should to caution, or educate the end users about such products, and how they are compiled... I've long been a strong advocate in favor of EVERYONE who relies on these tools educating themselves by reading Nigel Calder's most excellent HOW TO READ A NAUTICAL CHART, but I suspect very few sailors out there have ever done so...

I've linked to the following excerpt here and elsewhere numerous times before, but it has yet to ever elicit much more than a collective yawn...  But this is the most important takeaway, which I fear many out there today still fail to have a sufficiently healthy respect for...



> This is all a long-winded way of saying that the user of any chart should not be lulled into a false sense of security about its accuracy. Before GPS, there was always a degree of uncertainty about a boat's position. This led navigators to give a wide berth to hazards. In general, the techniques used to position hazards on a chart were more accurate than the nav tools available to the mariner.
> 
> Since GPS, this situation has been turned on its head. The equipment with which we navigate now has a positioning accuracy greater than that underlying the charts we use (including electronic charts, which are usually based on paper charts and old survey data).
> 
> How accurate are our charts? - Ocean Navigator - January/February 2003


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Maine Sail said:


> The fact that you can get lost impacts me minimally other than my tax dollar being spent to rescue you from yourself..
> 
> *I would MUCH rather see folks learn the COLREGS and learn HOW TO ANCHOR, first......*
> 
> ...


LOL! Just another way of saying what I've been suggesting, that it's become too easy for cruisers to 'out-sail' their level of experience, no?

In other words, Massholes should learn to anchor in Massachussetts, before interfacing their autopilots to waypoints in your neighborhood...


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

JonEisberg said:


> LOL! Just another way of saying what I've been suggesting, that it's become too easy for cruisers to 'out-sail' their level of experience, no?
> 
> In other words, Massholes should learn to anchor in Massachussetts, before interfacing their autopilots to waypoints in your neighborhood...


Bingo.... We have a winner!!!!!

I mean seriously you can make it from Edgartown to Maine but still can't secure your vessel to the bottom, in 12-15 knots.... Sad really.....

The mainsail flaking should have been my tell-tale the night before..... Doh'.....

Here's a good one for you..

*0.2 nm*









*0.3 nm*









*0.5 nm*









*0.8 nm*









*Some pea soup foggy Maine day someone will drive right over the land thinking they have 108 feet of water because the plotter showed it....*


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Maine Sail said:


> Here's a good one for you..
> 
> *0.2 nm*
> 
> ...


Wow... just, _WOW_...

Damn, whose e-charts are those? Adobe Photoshop's? 



Maine Sail said:


> *Some pea soup foggy Maine day someone will drive right over the land thinking they have 108 feet of water because the plotter showed it....*


Just a matter of time, no doubt 

btw, have you heard any update re the CG investigation of the ARCHANGEL grounding incident last summer? They're taking their own sweet time on that one, no?


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Omatako said:


> Well, for me it's about cost...


Not in the U.S. I just bought the 2014 Nautical Almanac Commercial Edition published by Paradise Cay Publications for about $20.

My Davis Mark III sextant (the "lifeboat sextant") was less than $50.

The three Sight Reduction Tables, Pub No. 239, Volumes 1, 2 and 3, were the most expensive part, but less than $150. Only Volume 1 for Epoch 2015, needs to be replaced every 8 years.

These costs are less than my handheld GPS with chart microchip, which ran about $300.

From experience or reading the forums and other depictions, we should all accept these facts:

1. In heavy weather, you may lose your engine power and electricity, and the use of all systems dependent upon power and electricity;

2. In heavy weather, your boat will likely take on varying amounts of water, leading one to reasonably believe the boat may be sinking, when in fact it is not;

3. In heavy weather and/or in the case of equipment/gear failure and breakage, you and your crew will suffer psychological stress as manifested by fear, anxiety, malaise, seasickness, helplessness, inability/unwillingness to perform simple tasks, etc; and,

4. A lightening strike can disable all electronics on your craft.

Any one who is not prepared for these realities should not head offshore, even in a rally surrounded by 200 of your closest new friends. No amount of ASA courses, skippered big boat charters, sitting on someone else's boat offshore, or expensive electronics will save you from these realities. Sure, you can activate your EPIRB and hope the USCG saves you at the expense of the loss of your boat.

If you are heading offshore, you better know how to operate your boat without crew, engine and electronics. You also better know how to navigate without all your electronic gee-whiz gizmos. All of you who think you can skip learning traditional navigation because you bought some electronic equipment and took some group sailing lessons are in for a rude awakening at some point, unless you plan to spend your entire cruising life in protected waters or close to shore.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

james If you wouldnt mind sharing more, I would very much love to get back into profficient celestial navigation..I have forgotten too much, and only have some sights I took in a logbook over 12 years ago when on route to galapgos...

and I see you posted most things needed for basic navigating in todays world.. Im assuming in the northern hemisphere today...

if you wouldnt mind sharing whats needed for starting up again either by pm or on here I would be VERY gratefull

I agree tremendously with your concise and well written points. People these days just dont get it...

Ive been reading a lot of posts lately on here and commenting(much to my detriment I may add) and there is a lot of biased and simply wrong assumptions...for example there was a thread where somebody said it didnt make a difference wether you had dinghy experience and small boat handling experience when going cruising cause there were plenty of people who simply hopped on a cruising boat when retiring and survived coastal cruising just fine...

its stuff like this that is simply wrong...ive seen plenty of cruising couples who cannot even sail to a buoy on ANY size boat...anywhoo

thread derail over, and kudos to you for stating what seems obvious at least to me!

christian


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

In addition to the other materials listed, I am reading "Celestial Navigation by H.O. 249" by John E. Milligan. Those items, together with worksheets, plotting sheets, parallel rules, a protractor, a watch and a short wave radio receiver for exact time, and a compass, should be sufficient.

In fact, the pamphlet included with the sextant - "How to Find Your Position With the Mark 3 Sextant" is a surprisingly good and concise re-introduction, and would allow you to take noon sun shots.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> In addition to the other materials listed, I am reading "Celestial Navigation by H.O. 249" by John E. Milligan.


Additionally, almost half a century after its initial publication in England, Mary Blewitt's CELESTIAL NAVIGATION FOR YACHTSMEN remains one of the finest primers on the art ever written...

Of course, that doesn't stop one of the reviewers on Amazon from whining that her writing is "archaic"... 

Celestial Navigation for Yachtsmen: Mary Blewitt: 9780070059283: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@510VFDPPKVL


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> In addition to the other materials listed, I am reading "Celestial Navigation by H.O. 249" by John E. Milligan. Those items, together with worksheets, plotting sheets, parallel rules, a protractor, a watch and a short wave radio receiver for exact time, and a compass, should be sufficient.
> 
> In fact, the pamphlet included with the sextant - "How to Find Your Position With the Mark 3 Sextant" is a surprisingly good and concise re-introduction, and would allow you to take noon sun shots.


That's the best ad for a chartplotter I've ever seen.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> Not in the U.S. I just bought the 2014 Nautical Almanac Commercial Edition published by Paradise Cay Publications for about $20.
> 
> My Davis Mark III sextant (the "lifeboat sextant") was less than $50.
> 
> ...


Generally, I totally agree with you James. But I want to look at one aspect of this that drives a lot of these discussions:



jameswilson29 said:


> 1. In heavy weather, you may lose your engine power and electricity, and the use of all systems dependent upon power and electricity;
> 
> 4. A lightening strike can disable all electronics on your craft.


How much of an issue is this...really? As an example, on my boat I have our iPad chartplotter, at least 3 iPhones (each with GPS), a Garmin Foretrex GPS, and a dedicated GPS puck for my iMux. I can almost guarantee that not ALL of that will go down in heavy weather, or even a lightning strike. Sure, anything _plugged into the boat_ will likely go down in a strike, but not all of it.

So the real answer to me is not _necessarily_ the paper and manual charting approach, but the "how do I best ensure electronic redundancy" approach.

Now, I'm certainly no electronics guru - especially in terms of how lightning does what it does to a boat. But let's look at each of these from a redundancy insurance standpoint:

1. If you lose your engine, you've potentially lost the ability to recharge batteries. But this certainly isn't a deal killer even if you have the small list of stuff I show above. You still have time and charging capability as long as you ration. Now, I have a generator on my boat, so I can still keep things running for a good long while even without the engine. But even without that, I would still have 3 batteries AND a jump-start/power-supply combo to boot. I would just have to watch fewer DVDs.

Or, let's say your electrical system gets shorted due to water intrusion - and you have no engine or genset. How hard is it to have an extra 12v battery stored in a safe place on the boat (off the grid) that you could then use to charge these devices (or a solar charging device or whatever). Then some of the backups I've listed simply run off of standard batteries that are cheap and plentiful (completely off the grid).

I'm just not seeing this as an insurmountable problem.

4. A lightning strike is obviously a bit more tricky. But even the above solution would likely provide you everything you need to keep going without having to resort to a sextant. The microwave or the oven would likely provide a fairly good Faraday Cage for a couple of devices, you could have a couple of others in your pocket, whatever.

The bottom line is that I don't think these scenarios, which are pretty damn rare, bring the obvious conclusion that we need to buy sextants, protractors, and sliderules.

Granted, I personally will keep paper charts to plot our course if the other stuff fails and all I have left is the Foretrex - but I'm just not that scared about the doomsday scenario you (and most others) lay out for these kinds of debates. Coming up with good ideas to ensure electronic redundancy would be a much more productive discussion I think.

Maybe I'm wrong. But I ain't buying a sextant.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> > Originally Posted by jameswilson29
> > In addition to the other materials listed, I am reading "Celestial Navigation by H.O. 249" by John E. Milligan. Those items, together with worksheets, plotting sheets, parallel rules, a protractor, a watch and a short wave radio receiver for exact time, and a compass, should be sufficient.
> >
> > In fact, the pamphlet included with the sextant - "How to Find Your Position With the Mark 3 Sextant" is a surprisingly good and concise re-introduction, and would allow you to take noon sun shots.
> ...


Then again, some might consider sails, standing rigging, running rigging, winches, lots of pricey blocks and other assorted hardware, deep keels and towering masts - not to mention always traveling at the comparative speed of a tortoise - as the best ad for a powerboat they've ever seen...


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

so now we dont even carry parallel rulers? too old school??????????? just 2 or 3 backup chartplotters? what morons!

MAN alive guys!

do not rely on single aids to navigation...in this case single being all electronic, and yes just cause it hasnt happened that you lose all your gizmos at once due to water or lightning or whatever doesnt mean you cant have something as archaic like sextant or handheld compass, or a little mirror to signal etc...

quit arguing the little tidbits and look at the whole picture...people have indeed lost all electronics and sometimes even sunk due to a lighnting strike as thruhulls blowout and whatnot...just inform yourself a bit, **** really does happen...be prepared in as many ways as possible...

I mean would you like to know, learn more, study more, or argue that knowing that specific "knowledge" if you will is useless and not likely to happen or be needed...

I cant NOT comment on stuff like this, it hurts not to say something

peace guys


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

> Maybe I'm wrong. But I ain't buying a sextant.


I'd send you one for Xmas if I could find it Smacky, I think it's in the basement in a bag full of 35mm Cameras, Loran units and baggie wrinkles.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> btw, have you heard any update re the CG investigation of the ARCHANGEL grounding incident last summer? They're taking their own sweet time on that one, no?


I haven't heard a thing since the Camden Herald posted a screen shot of the captain on his approach to the rocks.










HA! You wish, Jon! 

LOL! Even if this was the captain, the Maratime lawyers will find the same old fault.

Operator Inattention, and or, Improper lookout. Doesn't matter a wit if he's holding a chart in his hand or a video remote.

Heck it's no different than running up on the beach under AP, while the captain is asleep below. Operator inattention + Improper lookout, you simply aren't "navigating". You can't blame the AP, can you?


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

So, can we expect new boats will no longer have a navigation table, or is that still useful as a staging place for hors d'ouvres at the raft up?


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Generally, I totally agree with you James... Coming up with good ideas to ensure electronic redundancy would be a much more productive discussion I think.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong. But I ain't buying a sextant.


O.K., we'll compromise - a battery-powered Radio Direction Finder it is!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> So, can we expect new boats will no longer have a navigation table, or is that still useful as a staging place for hors d'ouvres at the raft up?


I think yes.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> So, can we expect new boats will no longer have a navigation table, or is that still useful as a staging place for hors d'ouvres at the raft up?


Good question. I predict the 'nav station' will change and less area/volume will be allocated to it. Charts will be around for a long time, some will use them solely, some will use them for back-up and some won't use them at all.

I have a feeling that many of the gizmos that fill a nav station today are becoming quickly outdated. As apps and programs flood laptops and lately, tablets, I find it hard to believe the masses are going to pay big dollars for specific electronic nav gear when cheaper, better versions are coming out all the time.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

TomMaine said:


> Good question. I predict the 'nav station' will change and less area/volume will be allocated to it. Charts will be around for a long time, some will use them solely, some will use them for back-up and some won't use them at all.
> 
> I have a feeling that many of the gizmos that fill a nav station today are becoming quickly outdated. As apps and programs flood laptops and lately, tablets, I find it hard to believe the masses are going to pay big dollars for specific electronic nav gear when cheaper, better versions are coming out all the time.


Bingo.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

TomMaine said:


> I haven't heard a thing since the Camden Herald posted a screen shot of the captain on his approach to the rocks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't disagree, just wondering why it's taking the CG so long to figure out something so obvious 

Is ARCHANGEL still at Wayfarer? The listing on Yachtworld indicates she's still in Camden, at the same asking price as before the accident, and with no mention of anything like a "brand new rig"... 

2011 Hylas Hull 10 RS Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> So, can we expect new boats will no longer have a navigation table, or is that still useful as a staging place for hors d'ouvres at the raft up?


You obviously haven't been paying attention, many no longer do 

This is the 'Nav Station' on the Seaward 46... I don't know why they even bothered, though it might serve as a "staging place" for a medium sized bag of potato chips, if you're lucky


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Maybe I'm wrong. But I ain't buying a sextant.


You're certainly not alone... I'd guess the percentage of cruising boats out there today that carry a 'real' sextant today, can't be more than a few percent...

I have never, ever delivered a boat equipped with a sextant. Perhaps one or two have had a plastic Davis stashed away somewhere for use as an extreme emergency backup, nothing more... And, I certainly don't bring my own along, when doing an offshore delivery - my trusty old Garmin 48 packs _SO_ much more easily 

Hell, even the slide out/stand up Nav table on my little tub is more useful than that stoopid shelf on the Seaward 46... At least I can use parallel rules greater than 6 inches in length 










BTW, there's an excellent discussion, as usual, on the matter of electronic redundancy over at Morgan's Cloud:

Backup For Electronic Charts?Conclusions


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Is ARCHANGEL still at Wayfarer? The listing on Yachtworld indicates she's still in Camden, at the same asking price as before the accident, and with no mention of anything like a "brand new rig"...
> 
> 2011 Hylas Hull 10 RS Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


I think it is. Even though the hull didn't seem to be damaged, I think it took on water laying over at low tide. Big repair project when a boat like that goes under water. I'll post it if I get any updates from the accident.

I'm just glad it's called ARCHANGEL ledge now, Christmas Ledge never caught on...


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

James, Christian, take it easy, no need to pop a blood vessel!  It's like the old saying, "You can lead a man to water, but you can't make him think." Until it happens *to them*, some people think their devices are infallible and immortal. No matter what scenario we come up with, they will discount it. Until it happens.

Never mind the sextant, Smackster, do you at least know the 20 brightest stars (the "navigator's stars"), or are you willing to learn them? They'll help you get home when you're halfway across the ocean and a  CME (coronal mass ejection - think "electomagnetic pulse from a planet-sized hydrogen bomb detonation") fries the satellites & radios.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

TomMaine said:


> Good question. I predict the 'nav station' will change and less area/volume will be allocated to it. Charts will be around for a long time, some will use them solely, some will use them for back-up and some won't use them at all.
> 
> I have a feeling that many of the gizmos that fill a nav station today are becoming quickly outdated. As apps and programs flood laptops and lately, tablets, I find it hard to believe the masses are going to pay big dollars for specific electronic nav gear when cheaper, better versions are coming out all the time.


That's already happened Today many boats use polyvalent spaces and the space of the chart table can be set up or removed and add space to the saloon trough a gliding or rotating movement. Personally I only use the space for preparing the voyage and only because the plotter is there. If I used a computer (for navigation) I would prefer to work on the saloon table. Bigger and more comfortable. When I sail I use the plotter at the well for navigation and radar information.

Regards

Paulo


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

jameswilson29 said:


> Not in the U.S. I just bought the 2014 Nautical Almanac Commercial Edition published by Paradise Cay Publications for about $20.
> 
> My Davis Mark III sextant (the "lifeboat sextant") was less than $50.
> 
> These costs are less than my handheld GPS with chart microchip, which ran about $300.


I agree with most of what you say except . . . . . .

Almanacs in NZ cost about double that and, whatever they cost, I don't have to replace my GPS annually.

The Davis Mark III will probably be the most likely to survive being dropped because it will just flex. Problem is that is not the only time it flexes. Like I said in my post, "please don't tell me about the Davis Plasticfantastic MkII" - comment now includes MkIII 

You don't need a GPS with any fancy micro chips to get a fix. None of mine have any chips and they give me a fix every time. If you choose to buy the expensive alternative that's cool, but you don't have to.

I've heard the stories of everything down to the electric razor being fried in a lightning strike - I find it hard to believe and hope that I will never be shown that I'm wrong in a totally practically fashion. I will now await the flood of reports from the people whose electric toothbrush no longer works


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

manatee said:


> Never mind the sextant, Smackster, do you at least know the 20 brightest stars (the "navigator's stars"), or are you willing to learn them? They'll help you get home when you're halfway across the ocean and a  CME (coronal mass ejection - think "electomagnetic pulse from a planet-sized hydrogen bomb detonation") fries the satellites & radios.


Naa - I'll just find the north star and hang a left or right toward land. It's not that hard.










(PS - You guys are paranoid.)


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

smackdaddy said:


> Naa - I'll just find the north star and hang a left or right toward land. It's not that hard.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Love the photo!

Not so much paranoid as prepared.

You're all assuming that because you have powered-up electronics that you're home free. Your little boxes are worthless if *anything* goes wrong with the massive network of wizardry that makes them work. Sabotage, natural disaster, good old human error - the cause doesn't matter, if it's down, you're S.O.L.

Hang a left and you'll bump into something, somewhere, eventually. With a little more effort you could *choose* your landfall instead of drifting about like a leaf on the wind.

Fair winds.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

and there you have it...some common sense...hard to find these days!

cheers to you my favourite sea animal the manatee


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

> They'll help you get home when you're halfway across the ocean and a CME (coronal mass ejection - think "electomagnetic pulse from a planet-sized hydrogen bomb detonation") fries the satellites & radios


Get home ? I'd be on a reciprocal course to home under those circumstances, does the compass still point north ? Or did the poles shift too ?
As long as Orion don't disappear I can find home.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

capttb said:


> Get home ? I'd be on a reciprocal course to home under those circumstances, does the compass still point north ? Or did the poles shift too ?


In the nuclear attack that these guys are anticipating, magnetic north would be distorted also. :laugher 

[So have a little sense of humor guys. I've never gone offshore, so I have no skin in this game.]


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

manatee said:


> Your little boxes are worthless if *anything* goes wrong with the massive network of wizardry that makes them work. Sabotage, natural disaster, good old human error - the cause doesn't matter, if it's down, you're S.O.L.


That's not paranoid?!??? 

Let's face it, the biggest problem a sailor will have in one of the above scenarios is getting any help because emergency services around the world will be dealing the 10 000 passenger jets that are having trouble landing. 

A Map of Every Passenger Plane in the Skies at This Instant | Smart News


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

This EMP thing has me worried. I know that I can navigate sans electronics, but in the event of a thermo nuclear war incinerating the atmosphere, how can I keep the boat sailing with the sails on fire? Are there any sail makers currently using a Nomax weave?


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Omatako said:


> That's not paranoid?!???
> 
> Let's face it, the biggest problem a sailor will have in one of the above scenarios is getting any help because emergency services around the world will be dealing the 10 000 passenger jets that are having trouble landing.
> 
> A Map of Every Passenger Plane in the Skies at This Instant | Smart News


Those planes have backups for the backups for their backups and all systems were installed and are constantly maintained by highly qualified techicians.
They don't send Billy Bob down to the discount electronics store and install everything with marettes using a pair of pliers 

I have delivered many boats with just about every consumer electronics package and have had enough problems not to completely trust any of them.

How often has your PC crashed ? I keep a spare.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> This EMP thing has me worried. I know that I can navigate sans electronics, but in the event of a thermo nuclear war incinerating the atmosphere, how can I keep the boat sailing with the sails on fire? Are there any sail makers currently using a Nomax weave?


Can you spell T-R-A-W-L-E-R


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

??? When the EMP hits that trawler, navigation will become superfluous as that engine isn’t going to be working too well. For all you guys who think that the 19th century navigation is the epitome of seamanship, are you working out your celestial corrections long hand or are you cheating by using a calculator?


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> ??? When the EMP hits that trawler, navigation will become superfluous as that engine isn't going to be working too well. For all you guys who think that the 19th century navigation is the epitome of seamanship, are you working out your celestial corrections long hand or are you cheating by using a calculator?


If my Perkins HT6-354 or my Volvo TAMB-60B were running when the EMF hit, they would still be running afterwards as there are no electric or electronic controls on them.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

So, mechanical fuel pump? You will still need to stop the engine to disconnect the alternator. I'm begining to like the trawler idea though. Can you get one with a steam engine? I'd prefer a steam powered submarine as I'm a little sensitive to radiation.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> So, mechanical fuel pump? You will still need to stop the engine to disconnect the alternator. I'm begining to like the trawler idea though. Can you get one with a steam engine? I'd prefer a steam powered submarine as I'm a little sensitive to radiation.


Alternator melt down ! doesn't matter, it does not stop my diesel.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Engine room fires can ruin you whole day.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> Engine room fires can ruin you whole day.


I wouldn't know, over 20k hours in my log and I've never seen one.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

How many EMPs have you flown through?


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

GeorgeB said:


> How many EMPs have you flown through?


At 7nm/h I can't fly


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

You *really* need to follow the CME link. It's when the Sun blows off a mass of charged particles & magnetic fields. Beside creating the amazing Aurorae Borealis & Australis, they play hobb with electrical devices. 

What thermonuclear war?
Look carefully - I do not say planet-WIDE hydrogen bomb detonation, it's planet-SIZED hydrogen bomb. Thermonuclear EMP would be a sneeze compared to a bad CME.


CAPTTB:
*IF* you have not replaced your magnetic compass with a black box, you'd probably be OK. I'd verify it against the sky, in case the magnetic field came close to Earth's surface, a possible concern in high latitudes.

I've worked with electronics and computers since 1965. They have more failure modes than you can believe.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Flying or floating, EMP is going to ruin your day. Trust me.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

CME as in dinosaur extinction? Something new to worry about. I guess I will need to practice more with my sunstone and Polynesian shell charts. The prospect of the magnetic poles flipping does keep me awake at night. In terms of geologic time we are way over due.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

GeorgeB said:


> For all you guys who think that the 19th century navigation is the epitome of seamanship, are you working out your celestial corrections long hand or are you cheating by using a calculator?


Not necessarily the epitome, an elecron-and-silicon-free backup method. Though it is a magnificent creation of the human mind.

Ledger book & #2 pencil.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

GeorgeB said:


> CME as in dinosaur extinction? Something new to worry about. I guess I will need to practice more with my sunstone and Polynesian shell charts. The prospect of the magnetic poles flipping does keep me awake at night. In terms of geologic time we are way over due.


Dinosaur extinction was triggered (at least in part) by a  large asteroid impact.

This article gives you a sense of what the Sun can do.

There was a  PBS show about the Earth's magnetic fields & their changes.

Clicking the links (blue words) will take you to more information.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

So clicking on the blue words links you to additional information? Really? Is that what you guys call the internet?  I too, subscribe to the theory of an asteroid causing the dinosaur extinction. I haven’t heard of a massive CME doing something similar. I do have some experience in space flight outside of the Van Allen Belt. Nasty stuff, solar radiation, but even micro circuitry can be hardened against it. But you have convinced me that the CME threat is real, and I will be adding it to my growing list of things (asteroids, falling objects from space, the poles flipping, thermo nuclear war…) to be prepared for while sailing. Thank god I never threw out my old sun stone!


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

GeorgeB said:


> So clicking on the blue words links you to additional information? Really? Is that what you guys call the internet?


...or intarwebs. I added that because it seems some are not checking them. I'm only on a phone, so it is easier to put up a link than type all the info.


> I too, subscribe to the theory of an asteroid causing the dinosaur extinction. I haven't heard of a massive CME doing something similar.


You made the dinosaur-CME connection a few posts back, not sure why.



> I do have some experience in space flight outside of the Van Allen Belt. Nasty stuff, solar radiation, but even micro circuitry can be hardened against it.


Are you at liberty to discuss what you were doing 'out there'? (To avoid threadjacking, feel free to PM me.)


> But you have convinced me that the CME threat is real, and I will be adding it to my growing list of things (asteroids, falling objects from space, the poles flipping, thermo nuclear war&#8230 to be prepared for while sailing.


But you forgot the ice melting; of course, that just give sailors more room to play. 'Waterworld', here we come.  Actually, the CME was supposed to be a joke; sorry it didn't turn out that way.



> Thank god I never threw out my old sun stone!


Do you have a sun-compass (shadow-stick) too?

I'd like to have a working replica of the Antikythera Device. That's a fascinating piece of machinery.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

After reading through all these arguments over the plusses/minuses of the vast array of sophisticated electronics that are now available to everyone at affordable prices, I realized how incorrect the title of this thread is.

"Nothing has changed in 50 years???" I call BS.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> From experience or reading the forums and other depictions, we should all accept these facts:
> 
> 1. In heavy weather, you may lose your engine power and electricity, and the use of all systems dependent upon power and electricity;
> 
> ...


I've only suffered a complete loss of power/total systems failure one time... Needless to say, I was thankful we were only about 100 miles off a coastline I'm pretty familiar with, and we still had the appropriate paper charts, and the #2 pencils still worked... This occurred over a dozen years ago, long before smartphones and tablets, so I have no idea how they might have survived the hit we took...

So, while I've had multiple independent failures of just about every single piece of gear that requires a flow of electrons over the years (I believe my own Navtex unit might be the ONLY type of gizmo that's never failed, but of course I rarely see them on other boats, so...) my own experience has been that a complete loss of power is an extremely rare occurrence, the danger of which seems often overstated in these discussions...

Not to mention, the loss of this stuff well offshore is not really the problem, it's when you find yourself closing the coast, and relying on inshore navigation, that your skills and abilities become more important...

So, I'm more inclined to agree with the points made by Maine Sail earlier, that there are other skills that are more important than pure navigation when heading offshore... And, if I had to select only one thing that I'd like to see sailors setting off on bluewater passages capable of, and practiced at, it would be_ THE ART OF HEAVING-TO_... IMHO, there is _NOTHING_ more important offshore than having a boat capable of doing so with relative ease, and a skipper who is always willing and able to employ the tactic - especially on boats being sailed with shorthanded crew...

In my view, one of the biggest downsides of the whole Cruising Rally mentality, is that even if only subconsciously, it likely discourages the use of the tactic... I think when most folks set out on an event like the Caribbean 1500, with their progress constantly updated by a Yellowbrick tracking website for everyone to see, it simply is not part of their mindset that in some situations, simply parking the boat for a bit can often be a really, REALLY good idea, one that can pay huge dividend in the long run... But, cattle aren't supposed to stand still during a cattle drive, after all... 

Following the 1500 this year, I was really impressed by the passage sailed by the Kanter 62 TE MANA... I think he took the best course to the islands, putting a good amount of easting in the bank early... But, several times when I clicked on his boat's icon, he wasn't going anywhere, presumably being hove-to... Whether it was to effect some sort of repair or sail change, or simply stopping to make it easy on the cook and have a pleasant meal, who knows... But, I'll bet he kept his crew relatively comfortable and well-rested despite the boisterous conditions that were exhausting the crews of other boats, which of course can be hugely important on such a trip... In reading the numerous blog postings and accounts from those dealing with the rough trip so many boats heading to the islands last month had, I couldn't help but be struck how few apparently ever resorted to the tactic...

I'd be willing to bet anything that this was what sealed the fate aboard RULE 62 - that they never once simply parked the boat for a bit of rest, or whatever... Until one has done so in a blow offshore, it's impossible to overstate the calming effect it can have, or how effectively it can ameliorate the fear or discomfort of a crew on the verge of panic, or exhaustion... Of course, RULE 62 is not the sort of boat likely to heave-to with ease, so with a skipper who I believe had likely never before employed the tactic 'in anger', that's gonna be a big problem, one which resulted in the remainder of the trip being made with decisions born of fear and ignorance, rather than confidence, and the reminder that heaving-to so often inspires...

Namely, that "Hey, this isn't so bad out here, after all..."


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Come on Jon! Heaving too? Isn't that just for us Dinosaurs?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I'm a huge fan of the heave-to. I'm with you dinos on that one.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> I'm a huge fan of the heave-to. I'm with you dinos on that one.


Smack, your gonna be a full fledged dinosaur before you know it.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

TakeFive said:


> After reading through all these arguments over the plusses/minuses of the vast array of sophisticated electronics that are now available to everyone at affordable prices, I realized how incorrect the title of this thread is.
> 
> "Nothing has changed in 50 years???" I call BS.


You forgot the most important part of the title:"many sailors still can't navigate" is the thesis.

You can buy machines that can show you where to go and drive the boat for you, but that does not mean *you* can navigate. All you are is an output device for the electronics. They navigate, not you. If they croak, you're lost. You can sail around until you bump into something, but that's not navigation.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

manatee said:


> You forgot the most important part of the title:"many sailors still can't navigate" is the thesis.
> 
> You can buy machines that can show you where to go and drive the boat for you, but that does not mean *you* can navigate. All you are is an output device for the electronics. They navigate, not you. If they croak, you're lost. You can sail around until you bump into something, but that's not navigation.


...which once again highlights just how much things have changed.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> ...which once again highlights just how much things have changed.


True. I've seen it! Typewriter, rotary dial phone, drafting board, Kodachrome, paper charts. I knew how to use them all(I think it's a myth that most of us don't know how to navigate on paper charts).

But today, I'm a safer better sailor because of GPS. Too often on paper charts, I didn't know where I was. But I managed for a few decades getting up and down the east coast. Digital photos, CAD design, MicrosoftWord, Garmin, this stuff has made me so much better at what I do.

Don't be afraid to navigate with electronic charts, just be sure to look for cows ahead(that hasn't changed).


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> I... IMHO, there is _NOTHING_ more important offshore than having a boat capable of doing so with relative ease, and a skipper who is always willing and able to employ the tactic - especially on boats being sailed with shorthanded crew..."


This is great information and advice. How about some specifics for us aspiring offshore sailors who might get caught offshore in snotty conditions?

So, at what angle to the waves should we try to assume?

What if the prevailing wind and waves are at different directions?

What sail configuration for the gale-force conditions in the SDR, deeply-reefed main and storm jib, or trysail and storm jib, or storm jib alone, say for a late 70s/early 80s IOR-influenced fin keel design with a wheel?

(My greatest concern with being hove-to is setting the boat up to be hit broadside by a large breaking wave and suffering a knockdown/roll.)


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> This is great information and advice. How about some specifics for us aspiring offshore sailors who might get caught offshore in snotty conditions?
> 
> So, at what angle to the waves should we try to assume?
> 
> ...


Some poor decisions on my part had my daughter and I hove to 50 nm off Cape Ann this past season. Conditions were only heavy because- she was seasick and I was spent after too many hours fighting the wheel downwind in mid 30 winds and following seas. Better planning, another crew member, lots of things would have turned it into a Nantucket Sleigh Ride.

Your greatest concern was my greatest concern- going broadside to the seas- upon broaching or heaving to. It was around midnight. You couldn't see the waves until they were on us.

We hove to under deeply reefed- sheeted bar tight on the centerline- main alone. (every boat is different).

I didn't want any sail forward of the mast as I wanted the boat to head 45 degrees or so into the seas. On my boat, there's enough windage forward in the roller furled sailed to keep the bow heading off.

However, she still has quite a bit of windward power under the smallest reefed main, I found, so you have to adjust and lock the wheel at a point where she won't tack. We even went into a forereach for a spell. At any rate, the 3 hour "sleep over", saved our bacon which I knew it would from past but lesser experiences heaving to.

Still, I wish I'd used better judgement earlier, and not been in the situation. I'm still learning at 60. 

I documented that passage here if anyone is interested. Stormy Voyage to Boston Across the Gulf of Maine | Massachusetts


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

well Im sort of ior...an islander 36...deep fin and skeg...but giving advice on specifics like this is very hard on the "nets"

the only way for sure is to test YOUR boat...and tae advice as tips and maybe jot them down for refference while you are actually doing it...

motissier on his boat liked his quarter to the breaking waves...yes his quarter not his stern because in his "canoe" stern if he let the breaking waves hit him dead on it would lift him to much...cavitate and then whip him to either side and then roll over(this in the roaring 40s)

so he tested his boat and found that by giving EITHER cheek of his stern the breaking rumbling water wouldnt lift his boat as much, and since hos quarter was already to the waves the whipping and gyrating was much less...

if you read his book cape horn he even draws a little diagram showing this

he alse preffered to run bare poles over heaving to as he preffered this and his boat did too...

heaving to can be hard to do on some boats...not all boats do it as well, having said that ALL boats will heave to in some manner of sail, no sail, helm over, in the middle or even loose...yes I said it...a bungee on a tiller and loose sometimes works...

ive had 3 full keelers 2 spade rudders and 2 fin and skeg boats...

all used different techniques for heaving to, I dint try it on my last boat which was an islander 34, basically a very shallow cutaway keel with a* VERY SMALL RUDDER*

this boat suffered badly when at speed(yes I was guilty of pushing the boat to its limits but how do you know unless you try?)

right?

my last trip on this boat I cursed the boat inmensely as the rudder COULD not handle surfing down waves from san francisco to santa cruz, california...the rudder was severely over powered.

I was solo...tethered and pissed off...why cause every puff of wind(30knots steady) would almost completely broach me

the ruddder was so small that I was hard over every time a puff filled the sails...I was reefed main...

In the end because there was no way in hell the autopilot would of worked for even a second I had to let the jib blow...

i know you say impossible, how, why?

why didnt you lash the wheel or douse the main...well its because certain boats can handle certain conditions and because sometimes you do get caught in conditions *WHERE YOU CANT LEAVE THE HELM*

the worst or best case scenario and the laws of diminshing returns dictate that its better to blow a sail and cruise into where you want rather then round up and risk snapping the boom or mast or worse.

so what does this have to do with heaving to or navigating? well simply put navigating is based on your experience, what you have learned or not and *YOUR BOAT*

no amount of advice over the internet will ever prepare you for all conditions

my conditions that led me to blow out a 110jib ddw surfing a heavy ass islander 34 at 12 knots...my assumption given the conditions and weather forecast that I would have a sweet 10-15 knot day sail into santa cruz

what I got in the end? a lost dinghy(i was hip towing out of the anchorage and later towing) and a blown jib

what did I learn from this? well all boats are different and even after almost circumnavigating you can always get your ass handed to you...maybe even as a joke from the man upstairs...

something to humble you...

and to add more fuel to the fire...this boat was COMPLETELY outfitted for cruising...aries windvane, massive wheel autopilot, "full keel" strong rigging and mast...everything you needed to be "safe"

so there you have it...

my 2c


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## capt vimes (Dec 2, 2013)

jameswilson29 said:


> So, can we expect new boats will no longer have a navigation table, or is that still useful as a staging place for hors d'ouvres at the raft up?


holy crap... i do not want that!

just last summer i joined a friend of mine on a 2 weeks trip around naples, the islands there, down to the eolic islands and back...
he was always playing around with his multitude of electronical gadgets he had... during the two weeks where we made 2 crossings (down to the eolic and back again) he plotted not a single position on a chart!

call me old fashioned but i want my chart and i want my position plotted there and not on a flimsy display i do not trust, which blinds me at night and is unreadable in the sunlight...
what i learned from experience and work: everything that can break, breaks (usually in the most inconvenient moments) and only trust software you have written yourself!
and i am software developer, so i know what i am speaking of...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> This is great information and advice. How about some specifics for us aspiring offshore sailors who might get caught offshore in snotty conditions?
> 
> So, at what angle to the waves should we try to assume?
> 
> ...


Sorry, but the only good answer to all those questions is - _"It depends..."_ 

Every boat, every situation, every crew - they're all different... Sailors simply need to experiment with this stuff, try to assess what works for them, and what doesn't... Even the most seasoned voyagers are likely to learn something new every time they resort to a tactic like heaving-to...

When I refer to heaving-to, I'm not necessarily thinking of it as a storm or survival tactic. Indeed, there will be many times where one might have to resort to something more active, or 'drastic'... My point is to simply highlight the value of parking the boat simply to take a break, have a decent meal, get some rest, settle down an anxious crewmember, whatever... Much as Tom describes in his excellent account above, sometimes you just need to pull off the interstate into a rest stop, for a while...

There's tons of far better advice out there than I can possibly give here... Steve Dashew's writings are among the best, his SURVIVING THE STORM is an awesome resource, probably the single best I've ever found...

All I can say is what my boat (with an underbody/sail plan probably not too much different from yours) seems to like, at least in winds and open ocean waves up to about 35 or so. Deep reef in the main, sheeted near centerline, no headsail, _with the tiller not lashed, but steered by the windvane_... technically, she's more forereaching than hove-to, but still making very little headway... The key is having the vane do the 'driving', it prevents her from wanting to tack, or from falling off, and gaining too much speed... As is so often the case, one of those things I discovered 'by accident' in the Stream, beating back up towards Key West from Belize. After furling the headsail, and getting ready to set a backwinded bit of staysail, I realized "Hey, this works fine", and I was able to get 4-5 hours of much needed rest... Sometimes, all you really need to do is basically _slow the boat down_, that alone can make a world of difference...

Without question, one of my biggest concerns about many modern boats I see today, is the potential difficulty of setting them up in such a way _that they will take care of themselves_ - and, the crew - in such situations... Modern designs with flat bottoms, high freeboard, etc... I'm not sure where one begins with setting them up to properly heave-to, and I would guess many such boats can only be made to do so with the assistance of the massive amount of excess windage aft that stern arches, dinghies on davits, and so on, can afford  But I'm afraid that for many of today's boats, the only way to get them to 'behave' properly when trying to park them for a bit in heavy weather, may be to fire up the engine...

So, the only way to figure this stuff out, is to go out and start playing. However, what works fine in 25 knots will not necessarily do so well in 35-40, due to the exponential increase in the force of a rising breeze... The most serious blow I've ever experienced on my own boat, was years ago at the north wall of the Gulf Stream on a trip out to Bermuda... In that instance, amazingly, simply lying ahull worked fine... Of course, that approach is widely considered the most dangerous approach of all, but in that particular situation, and with open ocean waves of a long period, my boat simply slid directly sideways in her own slick for about 6 hours, hardly ever taking a drop of water on deck, it was amazing... But that was a very rare circumstance, indeed...

These are the boats I've had more experience with offshore than any other single design - the Trintella 47 & 50...










Absolutely magnificent sailing machines, but a real challenge to park in a good blow... With their huge rig, and massive amount of windage forward (one real downside of the increasingly popular Solent-style double furling headsails) there's no way to keep the bow up, and maintain a 50 degree angle or thereabouts to the seas... In that instance, I would think a very creative technique described by John Harries on MORGAN'S CLOUD - that of streaming a Galerider from the bow, to windward - might work wonders in keeping the head up, and from forereaching off at too great a speed...

How to Stop Wave Strikes While Heaved-to in a Sailboat Offshore in a Storm










Needless to say, Morgan's Cloud is another superb resource...

Finally, one technique that is widely discussed, but I cannot personally endorse or recommend, is the vaunted Pardey Bridled Para-Anchor... Frankly, I just don't see how any of us mere mortals get that setup to work as they describe...  I'm guessing their success with it has a LOT to do with the Lyle Hess design they sail, and is less applicable to most more modern boats...

Evans Starzinger explains why, far better than I'm able to:

http://www.bethandevans.com/seamanship.htm#9a.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

nice diagrams jon! a pic or drawing in this case is worth 1000 words of verbiage huh?

wish I was more profficient on the computer and Im "young"

jajaja

peace


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

boatpoker said:


> Those planes have backups for the backups for their backups and all systems were installed and are constantly maintained by highly qualified techicians.
> They don't send Billy Bob down to the discount electronics store and install everything with marettes using a pair of pliers


The comment I responded to said:

"Your little boxes are worthless if *anything* goes wrong with the massive network of wizardry that makes them work."

The same network of wizardry that makes my handheld GPS work also makes the GPS in the aircraft work so they can have 500 levels of redundancy, when my GPS stops working because of a collapse in the network, so do all of theirs.

You see, the paranoia that we're dealing above with suggests that the whole GPS satellite constellation goes belly up. Of course that would give users of GPS a problem but then so would the sun being extinguished.

I rest my case - no more correspondence in this vein will be forthcoming.


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## Dave_E (Aug 7, 2013)

Your hijacking the thread. Start a new one for heaving.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

This thread went off course and hit the reef pages ago Dave.


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Omatako said:


> The comment I responded to said:
> 
> "Your little boxes are worthless if *anything* goes wrong with the massive network of wizardry that makes them work."
> 
> ...


Not entirely accurate. Large aircraft have inertial reference systems that are completely separate from GPS. As long as electrons flow the inertial system (basically a collection of accelerometers & gyroscopes) will work. I know of no recreational boating equivalent.

The whole GPS doesn't have to fail, just your little piece of it.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

manatee said:


> The whole GPS doesn't have to fail, just your little piece of it.


That was the case not long ago. One electronic gps is an easy fail. 2 or more all powered together, is just as easy a fail. But 3,4 gps devices, all powered from different sources, are allowing more redundancy today(some of us feel that way).

It wouldn't be surprising to find that many, or more independent gps devices in a kitchen today(laptops, smart phones tablets, etc).

I think this change has been quite rapid, especially to cheap chart plotting devices like tablets, phones, hand helds, that have independent power sources.

I also think NOAA saw this trend as they announced ending printing their charts next year.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

capttb said:


> > Dave_E said:
> >
> >
> > > Your hijacking the thread. Start a new one for heaving.
> ...


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Hell Jon - my mind does that all the time! Just part of getting old, though. 

Cheers,

Gary


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## manatee (Feb 27, 2013)

Think of it as conversational gunkholing - poking around strange little places we haven't been before. If thought experiments are good enough for Einstein, Feynman & Hawking, they're good enough for me.


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