# Theory on cause of Fiberglass Hull Blisters



## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Theory on cause of Fiberglass Hull Blisters*

In looking over lots of information here on sail.net and other places about fiberglass hull blisters I have come to a theory of the cause that I want to run by you guys. I really want your input on this as it seems logical to me. Maybe I am completely wrong and maybe I am on to something&#8230; Give me your input please.

I have never known of a Jacuzzi to blister at all. I called several suppliers and asked them if they have run into the blister problem, and NO they don't or they rarely do. In their experience the tubs and pools tend to blister when water gets behind the un-gel coated fiberglass steps or areas. They are made of the same materials as these yachts and they sit with water on their finished surface all the time 24/7 like yachts. The only difference with Jacuzzis is they are chopper gun shot with no core usually. Standing water never gets to the un-coated side at all.

Now, after looking over 250+ pages of information and links all over the net about fiberglass hull blisters it seems most people are pointing to this as a cause:

#1 - A boat made between 1975-1989 has more problems because of the oil shortage problems caused to chemicals to be changed.

#2 - A boat that is never pulled out for regular cleaning & waxing of the hull will have more problems.

#3 - Sand blasting / Sand washing of the gel coated fiberglass hull causing micro cellular openings allowing water penetration.

#4 - A chopper gun shot hull that was not hand laid up causing poor bonding & blending of the fiberglass resin with the strands.

#5 - Leaking port holes and other areas that are letting water inside the boat and between the layers of the fiberglass matting and core. ( this seems real common).

#6 - Older boats that only have gel coat on the outside and finished areas inside the boat will have more problems (1975-1989) usually verses newer boats that have gel coat on every inch that have much less problems&#8230;

Several companies make big bucks repairing blisters and it would be in their best interest to NEVER fix this problem for good. They recommend complete peeling of the gel coat and re-application after re-lamenting by hand. Several horror stories have been posted on this site and others by people that have had this done to their yachts, and about 50% of them that I read up on this type of expensive treatment only seems to work for about 2-5 years.

Now, after reading lots of posts and websites to learn as much as I can about yachts before I buy one I have come to a theory.

*========*

*FACT:*
Almost all fiberglass yachts have blisters, and almost all of them have standing water in the bilge that they say is too low to pump out. Reading further on the forums I have learned that it is a good idea to have 2 bilge pumps one small as low to the bottom as you can get and one large above it for a serious problem. Both should have trigger counters on them to count the cycles they are used.

*FACT:*
The packing nut for the prop shaft should be allowed to slowly drip approximately 2 times a minute. This water has no where to go but down to the bilge to stand until it is high enough to activate the pumps.

*========*

You would think that you would not want water to stand in the bilge, you would want it dry. Because you need this dripping packing nut for lubrication of the shaft I would think it would be a good idea to fix this water to its own standing pool area that is treated with gel coat and a small pipe with a hose in the dam area where it can be allowed to work its way into another sealed small bilge pump bucket and not allowed to just work its way down into the bilge to stand. This along with fixing all the other sources of water intrusion and holding should keep your bilge fairly dry. If condensation is a problem the use of fans and vents in the bilge area would greatly dry the dampness.

Thinking back to college physics and the problem that water is causing to the fiberglass once it is past the gel coat brings this up into the mix&#8230; Maybe it is not coming from the outside at all or at least in most cases&#8230; Since you would never want to expose un-gel coated fiberglass or a popped blister on the outside of the hull to water why would you expose the un-gel coated fiberglass inside the bilge bottom to standing water? My theory is that it would be possible for the water in the bilge to work its way to the outside of the hull since liquids will tend to want to move to the heated areas "cold to hot" attractions etc&#8230; Water in the hull would find its way to the other side of the fiberglass hull and would then work its way up the outside layer in a gas / vapor type state because of the being heated by a sunlight warmed hull, and turned into vapor until it cools enough to find an area that is week, condense again to liquid and press out. Thus the outside hull blister would then appear. Newer boat builders are gel coating everything inside and out, verses older boat builders that only did the finished "showing" areas.

What do you guys think about this?

*Travis E. Towle
Topeka, Kansas

785-357-1004
Looking into the 1974 era Gulfstar's Center Cockpit 41' - 55' Ketch's or Sloop's*


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

It's not just older boats, in Gemini's hull numbers within 10 of mine have reported hundreds of blisters within 2 years. I don't know on mine yet as I've not pulled it (it will be one year old in May).
It's chemical, quality and water ingress combined IMHO.


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## Gryzio (Dec 13, 2007)

*Guess it many things*

I remember years ago I had gone to Ocracoke Island off the coast of North Carolina. 

I bought a Bumper Sticker to put on my Truck. I put the sticker on the back glass window that fall when the weather was cool and it looked good to me. 

The next summer the bumper sticker had these little bubbles (Blisters) everywhere. 

It have something to do with applying the Gelcoat into the mold and then how the Fiberglass is mixed and/or applied. Temperature, Moisture in the Air etc. Many things could have possible affects, I guess.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

"The cause of the problem was well established in the 1987 University of Rhode Island study by Thomas Rocket and Vincent Rose, The Causes of Boat Hull Blisters. In simple terms, what happens is this. Water penetrates the gelkote both as water vapor and as liquid water. Water is particularly good at this due to the small size of the H2O molecule. The gelcoat is a rather poor barrier against water penetration when constantly immersed. The glass fibers assist by acting as capillary tunnels to transport the water molecules into the laminate. Once adjacent to the resin in the gelkote and laminate, the water goes into chemical solution with what are known as "water soluble materials (WSMs)" in the resin in the gelkote and laminate. These WSMs include phthalic acids, glycol, cobolts, mekp and styrene which have not gone to full cure in the hardening process. To varying degrees they are present in all cured polyester resins. Five percent is an excepted norm. In some rare cases the quality of the materials or their application may be inferior causing a higher than normal percentage of water soluble elements."
More here: http://www.zahnisers.com/repair/blister/blister1.htm


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thanks for that posted link - that is one article I have already read a dozen or so times. They say "Water penetrates the gelkote both as water vapor and as liquid water. Water is particularly good at this due to the small size of the H2O molecule. The gelcoat is a rather poor barrier against water penetration when constantly immersed."

*OK there is a PROBLEM WITH THAT CONCLUSION:*

If this were really the problem you would see this damage on every one of the gel coated fiberglass Hot Tubs, Jacuzzis, and Swimming pools - and you don't! *NEVER!!! *You just don't ever see this. So that fact and conclusion of that study is VERY WRONG and can be proven as so today. I am fairly sure that NONE of the students working in and around this study had the balls to stand up and say "Hey Professor you forgot something&#8230; Fiberglass Hot Tubs and Swimming Pools don't have this problem! So your theory is in-correct." Well, if they did they would have probably flunked that class&#8230;

*===========*

It bothers me too that the article is linked to their "repair" area of and they clearly state "To help our customers better understand the matter, we offer our Blisters & Laminate Hydrolysis on-line." Note "OUR". I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist here but if you thoroughly research this subject like I have you will see that their stated repair method does also fail. They also say "The coating should be inspected annually for evidence of failure. Failure will usually be evidenced by blistering of the barrier." No really? If their repair worked and this was really the "way" to do it then there would be no failure because they have addressed the problem as they stated it was. If they were really confident that they had this problem licked they would not have posted this "Zahniser's offers limited warranties on all bottom repairs." If the problem is really licked and was caused by what they said it was, and they fixed it - they should post an absolute GARENTEED FIXED warrantee. I would be interested in seeing the actual study report and will look for it. But remember studies can be leaned in any direction the person paying for the study wants it to. Heck in Texas you are a bad driver if your FICO score is too low. Last time I checked FICO had nothing to do with how good I steered my car?

*I am not slamming any company or study, I am just asking questions&#8230; They do have several points:*

*#1 - *Preventative maintenance is simple in principal: KEEP THE WATER OUT OF THE POLYESTER LAMINATE!!!

*#2 - *Barrier coats, because they are much less porous than gelkotes will blister with less moisture.

*With point #1 + #2 you would think that part of the cause just might be water in the bilge seeping into the glass from the inside?*

*====================*

Gryzio pointed out that it might have something to do with applying the Gelcoat into the mold and then how the Fiberglass is mixed and/or applied. Temperature, Moisture in the Air etc. Many things could have possible affects. This sounds reasonable but if that were the case you would have Kit Cars, Corvettes, Lotus's cars and smaller sailing boats like Lasers and C-Scows with this same problem. NONE of them do. But none of them have standing water. Then you have pools and Jacuzzis, they have standing water, but again no blisters.

*IN CONCLUSION:*
With my theory it would seem the problem would lay in the fact that water is getting into the laminate from the inside of the boat. A problem could also lay in the fact that these bigger yachts have a core inside them and are not solid fiberglass. Everything I listed above, the cars and Jacuzzis don't' have cores either.

Does anyone else have any other thoughts or ideas of what might be a hidden cause that I have not thought of?

*Travis E. Towle
Topeka, Kansas

785-357-1004
Looking into the 1974 era Gulfstar's Center Cockpit 41' - 55' Ketch's or Sloop's*


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

travistowle said:


> *Theory on cause of Fiberglass Hull Blisters*
> 
> My theory is that it would be possible for the water in the bilge to work its way to the outside of the hull since liquids will tend to want to move to the heated areas "cold to hot" attractions etc&#8230;


I don't understand this "cold to hot" attraction. It seems fundamental to your overall theory.

Can you explain this a little?

Thanks,
Craig


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## peikenberry (Apr 26, 2000)

You already have the cause. You just refuse to believe it. The study referred to was actually done by the University of Rhode Island paid for by the US Coast Guard Office of Boating Safety. I worked in the Office of Boating Safety at the time although I was not the project officer on this particular project. 

A copy of the complete study can be purchased from the Defense Technical Information Center (I tried to post the link but I don't have enough posts according to the error message I got. But if I get an -email or pm I cna give it to you) 

The cause is known. What the real question is, What is the cure? Numerous yards, repairers and marine centers have become supposed experts on curing this problem. FRP is a semipermeable membrane, so you simply have to find some way to prevent it from acting as a semipermeable membrane. 

The generally accepted method is:
Take the boat out and let the laminate dry. (this can take a long time)
Completely strip off the gel coat and as many layers of glass as necessary
(this depends on the extent of and depth of the blistering because contrary to their popular name "gelcoat blisters" they do not occur in the gelcoat, they occur in the laminate and can be just the top layers, or go clear through the laminate. Some are a total loss.) 
Replace the laminate
Replace gelcoat or not (some do some don't)
Apply Barrier Coat (typically some sort of expoxy barrier coat but this varies depending on who's doing the repair.)

Hope they don't come back. Very often they do.

And oh by the way, yes blistering does occur in other fiberglass structures but most fiberglass structures are not continuously submerged in water. The warmer the water the worse the problem. I have seen a boat that was six months old with blistering so bad it was a total loss, and on the other end boats that are 40 or more years old with no blistering. The old navy launches built in the 40's out of FRP and built about 5 times heavier than anything built of FRP today have never (as far as I know) blistered. And many of those old launches are still around and being used daily.

It does have a lot to do with the types of resin and the quality of the layup. But mostly it has to do with how much is cured and how much isn't. It you have a lot of uncured resin in the laminate you're going to get blisters. I once looked at a swan that had one of the heaviest lamiantes I have every seen on a boat that size, and gel coat that was twice as thick as normal, and it was very thoroughly blistered. It had been berthed in the Potomac for years. Maybe it was all that pollution! LOL.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Travis...of course zanheisers has a commercial interest in publishing that info...but it is based on an academic work that you should be able to track down and perhaps the authors Rocket and Rose are still at URI and would respond to a question. 
My own guess would be that bilge water has little or nothing to do with it since blistering is often far removed from the wet portion of the bilge and many bone dry hulls get blistes as well. 
Since we don't KNOW tha hot tubs are made of the same fiberglass and gelcoat materials in the same way and since the water in them is treated as well...we may not have the same chemical reactions that result in blisters taking place. 
I do find more boats down south seem to have blisters and of course they aren't hauled during the winter typically so the continuous immersion explanation makes sense to me from a layman's perspective.

EDIT: Professor Vincent Rose is still at URI and here's his web page and e-mail link: http://www.egr.uri.edu/che/Faculty/rose.html
E-mail: [email protected]
He also has a patent on preventing them!


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

Travis -- Some comments on your posts:

Water in bilges has long been linked with blisters. Sorry, but others beat you to that observation. But if bilge water was the prime cause, then one would think the blisters would only be found in the fiberglass surrounding the bilge. In my experience, blisters usually are spread out and not confined to one spot (although they can be on some boats.) And yes, dry bilges are desirable for a number of reasons -- smell being one.

In the early 1980's some manufacturers started using vinylester resins, which are much less porous than polyester resin nearly everyone used previously. For example, Pearson started using vinylester resins at about that time and offered a warranty (I think it was 5 years but it could've been 10) against blistering. the gelcoat Pearson used was made by Glidden using the trade-name Blister-Bloc. It did it's job. I did a barrier coat job on my 1988 P-33-2 in the spring of 2006 due to blisters finally showing up.

Your point about jacuzzi's and such not blistering -- here's one manufacturer that does talk about blistering being a common problem:

_*How are spas constructed?

*Most manufacturers use the fiberglass lay-up method of spa construction. This manufacturing method combines layers of polyester resin and glass fiber. A heated acrylic sheet is placed over a spa-shaped vacuum mold. Air is drawn out through hundreds of small holes. When the acrylic cools, they remove it from the mold and reinforce the underside of the spa with a resin and chopped fiberglass mixture. This polyester resin and glass combination can lead to a common problem-acrylic blistering. Blisters occur because of a chemical reaction between moisture from the tub and the polyester resins used in the reinforcing process. Many spas have been ruined because of blisters. Spas made from polyester resins not are blister resistant. Their finish and structure warranties are separate. The salesman points out the structure warranty because it is usually 10-15 years. Many times he won't mention that finish warranty is only 1-3 years. You could have a blister problem in as little as one year! Great Northern spas don't have the blistering problem that others do because we use epoxy resin instead of polyester resin to reinforce the spa. Epoxy resin doesn't't react with moisture to form the gasses that cause blistering. Great Northern spas are blister proof. The warranty on structure and finish is the same-20 years._


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*A major flaw in your theory*

is the fact that blisters only occur below the water line and in areas well above and away from the bilge..I have blisters on my rudder


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Good find Mitch! 

Peter...that is a heckuva links page you have on your website! I now have it bookmarked! welcome aboard...or back it seems!


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

_"If this were really the problem you would see this damage on every one of the gel coated fiberglass Hot Tubs, Jacuzzis, and Swimming pools - and you don't! NEVER!!! You just don't ever see this. So that fact and conclusion of that study is VERY WRONG and can be proven as so today."_

except for the simple fact that most of the above

*USE EPOXY RESINS. *
boats... don't. Mythbusted.
tag, you're it, care to continue down this path?


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

travistowle said:


> *FACT:*
> Almost all fiberglass yachts have blisters, and almost all of them have standing water in the bilge that they say is too low to pump out.


Your "fact" is not a fact at all. It is certainly not true that "almost all fiberglass yachts have blisters" and as has been pointed out several times in this thread, blistering is absolutely not limited to hull areas near the bilge. I have seen extensive blistering on virtually every wetted surface at some time or another.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

cardiacpaul said:


> _"If this were really the problem you would see this damage on every one of the gel coated fiberglass Hot Tubs, Jacuzzis, and Swimming pools - and you don't! NEVER!!! You just don't ever see this. So that fact and conclusion of that study is VERY WRONG and can be proven as so today."_
> 
> except for the simple fact that most of the above
> 
> ...


Hey, the guy's from Kansas. How much can we really expect him to know about blistering?


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

I don't usually get too cranked up by the opinions posing as facts on the board, but for some reason this one poked me.

While I'm at it, I don't think I ever saw an Avanti, or a 'vette with blisters so its gotta be the water in the bilge, right? 

To me, its a lot like that poor sap that did all of his reasearch, compared apples to donuts all day, admitted he knew little about outboards, then bought an outboard over the 'net. Then complained that he couldn't get it to do what he wanted. Hey, he had all of the spec's, all the slide rule stuff, so, the Mfr. HAS to be lying to him. Oh jeez, here we go. 

The OP can read as many pages as he wants about blisters and the causes. It won't do him any good. 

I am of the opinion that all FRP boats will blister to some extent. Some very minor over a period of decades, some like a 13 year old boy with a pizza and chocolate fetish. 
I'm not the brightest bunny in the forest, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to "solve" a problem that has been at least looked at by EVERY boat builder over the last oh, 40 years or so. 

I don't believe that its some plot for planned obsolesence, or a conspiricy by big oil either. Although it may be Bushs fault, we'll have to ask Mike about that one.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Damn Bush, I knew he was in on this one, him and Halliburton too I bet.

Since I have two bilges (absolutely dry btw, which is good because I don't have a bilge pump) and two hulls, do I get twice the blistering, or does proper algebric calculus slide rule line plotting indicate that the the blisters will divide and devolve chemically into just half the blisters?
I think half the blisters, which then means it is yet another reason to own a multihull!
Seriously, done deal, let the professionals work it out, our job is to grind, epoxy and hope they don't come back.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

You guys are all WAY off base. Especially CP. What the hell is he thinking?

FACT: After drinking a glass of water, Barak Obama developed blisters.

FACT: Hillary Clinton contracted "blisters" from her husband.

FACT: George W. Bush contracted "blisters" at a Skull and Bones party in 1967.

CONCLUSION: Our political leaders are made of FRP.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

FRP - Frigging Ridiculous Politicians. 

Beezer has it!


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Considering the fact that we own a hot tub/spa made by one of the industries largest manufacturers Sundance, which owns Jacuzzi, and the interior surface is NOT gel-coat I can assure you that our hot tub won't be developing gel coat blisters any time soon!!!!!

Did you ever consider the fact that:

1) When spas/hot tubs were made of gelcoat (read the 80's) that is was vinylester and not polyester?

2) That most manufacturers, before switching to "non fiberglass interiors", switched to epoxy based products.

3) That the hot tub/spa industry intentionally tries to make hot tubs basically obsolete after roughly ten years! The oldest hot tub the guy that services mine works on is a 1992!

Try and find us a photo or an example of a polyester gelcoated hot tub from 1975 that is still in use and your argument might hold water.



P.S. My 1979 boat does not and has never had blisters.


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## peikenberry (Apr 26, 2000)

Camaraderie, Thanks for the welcome. I was a member until I retired but I used my work address. Now I'm back as a civilian. I try to keep my links page up to date but it's getting to be so big I have to use one of those link checkers and I have found that they sometimes miss dead links. 

Vette's don't blister because the fiberglass bodies are not made in a female mold or hand laid up like boats. They are pressure molded in a double mold just like molding metal, so all the air is pressed out and heat is applied to help the cure. My boss in the late 80's, Lysle Gray, was an engineer at Molded Fiberglass Corp (MFG) who made the vette bodies up until about 87 or 88 when they went out of business. They also were the only company making fiberglass hulls in pressure molds. Now those boats don't blister! Unfortunately it is a very expensive process so they were killed by the competition.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

CP's off his meds and in a rare mood... so I think we should unleash him on the OP..... Should be fun to watch at least...from a good safe distance.


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

sailingdog said:


> CP's off his meds and in a rare mood... so I think we should unleash him on the OP..... Should be fun to watch at least...from a good safe distance.


Well, someone appears to have scared Travis off so let's blame CP.

Travis, should you reappear, a question for you:

Do you own bulldogs?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Cool OFF here!!!*

Well, some of you want to bang on me because I am from KANSAS&#8230; Welcome to OZ I guess&#8230;

And no I am not mad about anything&#8230; I don't own a yacht yet. I have nothing to gain by fixing a problem like this, nor to I have anything to loose. YET.

*I stated that I am not a professional. I came to a theory after reading on this subject for about 3 months and talking to several other fiberglass kit car and hot tub builders, and repair shops about this and reading everything I could find on the net about this. *

On this post a guy said no hot tubs are being used that are older then 1992&#8230; Well, I have one that was made in 1989, my father has one that was made in 1979, and your "FACT" is way off too. Most people that have jacuzzi's are folk that want one then never use it. NONE OF THE OLDER HOT TUBS WE OWN HAVE BLISTERS and the manufacture of artic spas & great northern are yacht men&#8230; surprise they quoted the yacht problem on their SALES PAGE.

*I am not trying to be a first at an observation at all!* What I am trying to do is learn as much about a problem I will be facing in the near future when I purchase a yacht. I have learned to never just trust what you are told by the guys trying to sell you the fix&#8230; I learned that well from my Ford Model T repair and parts guys&#8230; ALL OF YOU SHOULD HAVE LEARNED THAT BY NOW? Come on, why are you jumping all over me like a gang of bloods at a rap concert? You can not blame me for questioning everything. I am not some rich sap that can toss down 250k on a yacht and 2 years later pay some guy 400+ bucks an foot to "fix" something that he says is wrong just to have it fail again 2 years later.

*Camaraderie* posted that many bone dry bilge boats had blistering too. I would like to know if anyone here owns one that is like that to back that statement up?

*Peter Eikenberry* said "You already have the cause. You just refuse to believe it" Yes, we do know what the stated cause is but again you should question everything - only then can you learn. I strongly believe that if the cause was really already known it would have been fixed, and you would not see this problem anymore.  Well until money comes into the fix, then you have big business in the repair. Thanks for your post Peter, also you have some great photos on that site!

*Craig* had a question about the "hot to cold" statement. This is based on my experience with solar heating and cooling. One of the answers posted here was that more hull blisters came from warmer waters. If the water in the bilge is cool, it would be attracted to the heat on the outside of the hull, warmed by water and sun. It would also be able to find its way in from Professor Vincent Rose's finds from the "straw" type action of the fiberglass sucking it inside. Once to the outside near the heat source it would easily be turned into vapor as it heated up more. When I posted this theory to the members of the mensa.org site they also pointed this attraction of hot and cold out. It is this same thing that would cause the blisters to be all over the outside of the hull not just in the area of the bilge. Anywhere water can get into it will, so the same fact again with a rudder blisters. It would blister outside all over the water line and sometimes above.

I* am trying to learn here guys, not trying to teach.* Why are some of you guys acting like a bunch of pompous jerks? I have asked for your input, I am not trying to toss this crap in your face. Only by questioning facts can one learn, and if your lucky you might learn something new right? Last time I looked it was 2008, and 1987 was a long time ago! Time changes factors, and new materials change with technology. *The problem has not been fixed - WHY? *The cause was stated 21 years ago and has been held as FACT to you guys, but maybe you guys forgot that one time in our history there was a FACT that cigarette smoking was GOOD FOR YOU. If no one ever questioned that study or they got as much crap about questioning it as I have received for questioning this study would all be so much healthier by smoking 10 packs a day? Remember when Coke was "good" for us to? How about Dr. Pepper - 10, 12, and 2??? Now pop and cigarettes are BAD for us, so their *OLD STUDYS were WRONG weren't they?*

I will try to contact Professor Vincent Rose this week and see if he can help me out here. I think it is very interesting he has a patent on preventing them from his 21 year old study - but they are still occurring in brand new boats right? What's up with that?

*Call me a SAP, call me a know it all, call me what you want. All I am trying to do is learn why a problem that has been "resolved" 21 years ago is still occurring today. You would think you guys would be wondering too. *

*Travis E. Towle
Topeka, Kansas

785-357-1004
Looking into the 1974 era Gulfstar's Center Cockpit 41' - 55' Ketch's or Sloop's*


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

travistowle said:


> *IN CONCLUSION:*
> *With my theory it would seem the problem would lay in the fact that water is getting into the laminate from the inside of the boat.* A problem could also lay in the fact that these bigger yachts have a core inside them and are not solid fiberglass. Everything I listed above, the cars and Jacuzzis don't' have cores either.
> 
> Does anyone else have any other thoughts or ideas of what might be a hidden cause that I have not thought of?


I've read this thread again, hoping to find some evidence that may disprove my belief that the OP is oblivious to even the most basic physical properties of boats.

In just about every case I've encountered, osmotic blisters are typically found from the keel to just below the waterline. How can anyone reach a conclusion that this malady is caused by bilge water?

What a waste of time.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*SailorMitch,*

I'm almost full blooded Irish and I don't own any dogs, only a parrot with a big beak that bites strangers touching his cage. Unfortunately my sister and I are the only ones that can not get Irish Immigrant status again, so I am now just a full blooded American from the land of OZ that does not own a bulldog.

I don't take offence to anyone's post here unless they have something to gain or just start slamming me and my statements. Like I said I am here to learn as much as I can about yachts and their problems before I toss down 10's of thousands into a giant hole in the water.

*TRUE BLUE - you did not read, again*"This is based on my experience with solar heating and cooling. One of the answers posted here was that more hull blisters came from warmer waters. If the water in the bilge is cool, it would be attracted to the heat on the outside of the hull, warmed by water and sun. It would also be able to find its way in from Professor Vincent Rose's finds from the "straw" type action of the fiberglass sucking it inside. Once to the outside near the heat source it would easily be turned into vapor as it heated up more. When I posted this theory to the members of the mensa.org site they also pointed this attraction of hot and cold out. It is this same thing that would cause the blisters to be all over the outside of the hull not just in the area of the bilge. Anywhere water can get into it will, so the same fact again with a rudder blisters. It would blister outside all over the water line and sometimes above."

*Travis E. Towle
Topeka, Kansas

785-357-1004
Looking into the 1974 era Gulfstar's Center Cockpit 41' - 55' Ketch's or Sloop's*


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

With all due respect, I posted above before realizing Mr. Towle posted right before me. But my impressions remain the same.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

travistowle said:


> *TRUE BLUE - you did not read, again*"It is this same thing that would cause the blisters to be all over the outside of the hull not just in the area of the bilge. Anywhere water can get into it will, so the same fact again with a rudder blisters. It would blister outside all over the water line and sometimes above."


The small percentage of inner hull in direct contact with a sailboat's standing bilge water could never even come close to affecting the entire below-water-line portions of the hull. The capillary action, or "wicking", you presume to take place is impossible to even imagine taking place from this water source.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Travis,
You said that you posted your theory with members of "Mensa.orgasm." I have two questions. What is Mensa.orgasm? Can anyone join?


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

sailhog said:


> Travis,
> You said that you posted your theory with members of "Mensa.orgasm." I have two questions. B.) What is Mensa.orgasm? Number 4.) Can anyone join?


 D.) How many "members" does Mensa.orgasm have?


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

travistowle said:


> Once to the outside near the heat source it would easily be turned into vapor as it heated up more. [/B]


Thanks for your answer.

Could you explain this statement? How does it turn into vapor?

Thanks,
Craig


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Travis,
When purchasing my last boat, I hired professionals to repair tiny clusters of blisters, which my surveyor found along the entire dark-blue UW portions of the boat - depicted in the below graphic.








​
The whitish area I highlighted represents the keel bilge, the only place standing water has ever collected on this boat. Blisters were even found on the skeg-hung rudder.​
The cause was due to the chemical composition of resins during the solid fiberglass layup, in Finland, over 20 years ago.​
Are you convinced yet?​


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*True Blue,* Thank you so very much for your post and your photo - your input is very valued by me! But, with the numbers you quoted this yacht was lade up around 1988 am I correct? If this is correct then this yacht you are pointing out falls into category #1 of my first post and would be exempt from my theory. "#1 - A boat made between 1975-1989 has more problems because of the oil shortage problems caused to chemicals to be changed." You also stated this was a "solid fiberglass lay-up" - if this is true and it is SOLID GLASS like swimming pools and spas then it could toss out my question of if a core sandwiched between the fiberglass was contributing to the problems as suggested by the Jacuzzi manufactures.

I just talked to a district rep for AtricSpas about this problem. He said "_the only time they run across the problem of blisters today is when someone gets a deep scratch in their coating exposing the glass mat and water gets into the hand laid matting. Then the blisters will show up in that area flow outwards slowly moving away from the scratch point of entry. If this issue is not addressed in a timely manor the blisters will continue to expand away further from the source of entry." _This would "kind-of" fall into category #2, #3 & #5 of my first post.

He also said _"Today they don't have any real problems with blisters at all, but they did in the mid 70's to early 90's. Today they offer a lifetime warrantee against any defects in the shell."_ Again this would fall into category #1.

Will someone or a surveyor on this forum please give me a list of 10 or so yachts that have severe blisters made after 1990 that have dry bilges and are and have been kept "tight" from water intrusion from the deck, hatches, hardware etc. In other words a well maintained water tight yacht. I know the term "water tight" will cause lot's of you to laugh, but there just has to be some well maintained machines out there that meet these specs. This would put my theory against the wall and end this discussion for good. So please quit talking about mensa.orgasms and get real for a minute. If you don't like what I am saying please do what True Blue is doing and try to prove me 100% wrong!

*I truly value your input good or bad!!!*

*Travis E. Towle
Topeka, Kansas

785-357-1004
Looking into the 1974 era Gulfstar's Center Cockpit 41' - 55' Ketch's or Sloop's*


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Travis*



travistowle said:


> On this post a guy said no hot tubs are being used that are older then 1992&#8230; Well, I have one that was made in 1989, my father has one that was made in 1979, and your "FACT" is way off too.


Travis,

Before you start slamming folks because they "did not read", as you did to True Blue, perhaps you should re-read what I said instead of completely misquoting my statement!

I said:

Did you ever *consider* the fact that:

1) *When* spas/hot tubs were made of gelcoat (read the 80's) that is was *vinylester and not polyester*?

2) *That most manufacturers, before switching to "non fiberglass interiors", switched to epoxy based products.
* 
3) That the hot tub/spa industry intentionally *tries to make hot tubs basically obsolete* after roughly ten years! *The oldest hot tub the guy that services mine works on is a 1992!*

Try and find us a photo or an example of a polyester gelcoated hot tub from 1975 that is still in use and your argument might hold water.

No where did I EVER say that there are NO hot tubs older than 1992. In case you skimmed it, and didn't pick up on key words like "consider", I said: *"The oldest hot tub the guy that services mine works on is a 1992!" *I never said there are NO tubs older than 1992!

I NEVER stated any facts! As you so eloquently claim! I was asking you some questions to ponder such as vinylester vs. polyester and what about the industry switch to epoxies before the switch to non-fiberglass.

Has your dad's 1979 hot tub had water in it since 1979? Is his gelcoat vinylester or polyester is your 1989 vinylester or epoxy?

Please read more carefully before you start insulting others about how they read!

P.S. I owned a Catalina 30, that also always had a bone dry bilge, and she had a few blisters. Of course these blisters were no where near the bilge on the exterior of the hull and no where near where any sitting water would be on the inside of the hull.

My current boat a 1979, up until me, always had just a little bilge water, perhaps a 1/4 inch, but she has no blister. Since I now keep her gelcoated bilge bone dry can I assume that she will never get blisters?


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

My slip neighbor has a 1990 C30 with a bilge that's always dry as a bone (he has a dripless stuffing box), and with each haul out he has a few blisters to dig out. Nothing major, but he gets 'em.

So what's the deal with Mensa.orgasm anyway?


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

Travis,

As I pointed out in one of my earlier posts, your arbitrary use of 1975-1989 is not accurate. As I said, Pearson began using the Blister-Bloc gelcoat in about 1985, which drastically cut down on the blistering problem. My 1988 model didn't develop blisters until well after that. Some other manufacturers didn't make that change until the 1990's.

Concerning your hunt for a 1974 Gulfstar (just outside your arbitrary period), a buddy of mine has a 1974 Pearson 39. It has blisters.

My 1988 boat is solid glass and it developed blisters.

I don't think anyone can vouch that a 15 year-old boat has been "water tight" for its entire life. Water gets in a number of ways, some of which have no relation to whether it's been a "well maintained machine." You'll find out when someone leaves a hatch or port open during a thunderstorm.

As for lifetime guarantees on an FRP hull, forget it. Too much can happen to a boat for a manufacturer (either boat or epoxy/gelcoat) to do that.

I used www.masepoxies.com when I barrier coated my boat. Check that site. It has the info on the water absorption rate of the epoxy, which is about as good as it gets in keeping water outside the hull. it also has info on blisters.

As for proving your theory wrong, we have done that. Blisters appear where there is no bilge water. Other than that, what is it you are trying to prove????

I would suggest steel or aluminum hulls since you are so paranoid over blisters -- but then rust and electrolisys never sleep.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Halekai36, *#1 YES. Do you know why they changed? Problems with blisters resulting from the changed chemicals resulting from the oil embargo. #2 YES. Only MOST - not all. #3 - YES, I was just pointing out that there are lots of other spas that are older then 1992, and as I know for a fact dads is 1979. You want a picture of a pre-1975 tub, ebay.com has lots of them every year, very few of them have problems besides dirty, dings, scratches etc. Did my dads 1979 hot tub hold water since 1979 - yes. It is never empty because he always keeps it full and never maintains a darn thing that he does not have too. That's why we bought our own&#8230; ewwww&#8230; I like clean things thank you. I was simply pointing out just like you did in your post back to me.

NOW your picture, it is nice to see the area is coated and not left bare, that will probably help according to the professors theory of how water can "wick" in. Any other blisters could come from any scratches or areas where water got in, a small leak in a deck joint etc according to the information from the spa and pool guys.

*Sailhow,* I am pretty sure I listed it as mensa.org ? Also what's a dripless stuffing box?

*SailorMitch,* I expect a 74 Gulfstar will have a few blisters but not a total small pox situation. I will check out that link and read up on their systems. I also found this site interesting - epoxyproducts.com/blister4u.html but his way of explaining his fix is puzzling and hard to understand. When was your last pullout and how well did the stuff you used protect the hull from re-infection?

I have seen a ton of yachts that have a lot more water in the bilge then you guys are pointing too, I mean 4-8 inches standing. Most of them have very serious problems with blistering. If any of you saw my post concerning the erosion of the mast base I was looking at last week then you saw the damage that is caused by standing water. That is what really got me thinking about the seriousness of the blistering problem. That same yacht not only had small pox but large pox too and it was a 1973 - but they always let the water stand high in the bilge that was un-painted, un-gel coated and was just left bare hand laid fiberglass. You could see areas where the water had actually changed the color of the fiberglass mat underneath the top layers of glass. If it was seeping to that point I started asking people in the field if it was possible to expand all the way through the hull to the outer layer - thus my theory.

*Travis E. Towle
Topeka, Kansas

785-357-1004
Looking into the 1974 era Gulfstar's Center Cockpit 41' - 55' Ketch's or Sloop's*


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## peikenberry (Apr 26, 2000)

Now you've spoiled the fun. No mensa.orgasm? Damn! 

Dripless stuffing boxes. The stuffing box is where the shaft enters the hull. The shaft goes though what would look to most people like a pipe with a big nut on the inside end. That's the stuffing box. It was stuffed with a compound that filled the box, conformed to the round shape of the shaft and kept water from flooding the boat. BUT the shaft has to be lubricated, so a tiny amount of water is allowed to flow to lubricate the shaft and drip into the boat. Thus, water in the bilge. (which brings us back to the pox) 

Dripless stuffing boxes don't work that way. No water drips out of the stuffing box. There are a variety of these on the market. Some work well, some don't work worth a damn. I have never had a boat with a stuffing box so I have never had to worry about it, but a friend of mine could tell you nightmare stories about the stuffing box on his trawler yacht.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

travistowle;269225[B said:


> Sailhow,[/B] I am pretty sure I listed it as mensa.org ? Also what's a dripless stuffing box?


You listed it as Mensa.orgasm. Now what's the deal with it? I want to hear all about it.

A dripless stuffing box is one in which the prop shaft is wrapped with a teflon material that keeps nearly all of the water out. Some stuffing boxes are wrapped with material that is made to allow a drip every few seconds which serves to lubricate and cool the prop shaft as it spins. This water eventually ends up in the bilge. By the way, my C30 was built in 1980, often has water in the bilge, and has never had a blister. Strange, I know. I don't know if you care or not (I certainly don't) but from my point of view, your theory looks like a warm turd glistening in the morning sun, a lovely feather of steam rising off of its moist, coiled surface.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*Travis; You will search in vain..Anyone with a keel steped mast*

is going to get a small amount of water in the bilge to sponge out or it will accumulate until the bilge pump kicks in. Not a significant problum for you sothern boys but more so up in the rain forest of Washington. You just cant seal all the shiv and fair lead penetrations in the mast ..wind blown rain finds its way.



SailorMitch said:


> Travis,
> 
> I don't think anyone can vouch that a 15 year-old boat has been "water tight" for its entire life. Water gets in a number of ways, some of which have no relation to whether it's been a "well maintained machine." You'll find out when someone leaves a hatch or port open during a thunderstorm.
> 
> ...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

As all of you state; my theory is dead and a complete waste of time right? So you point to the only known study that is 21 years old and say the following is a FACT.

*We know the cause.
We know the fix.*
Now shut the frick up TravisTowle and go away...

*ANSWER THIS:*
*If you know the cause, and you know the fix, tell me why is there still a problem even after the applied fix? *

*By the way:*
Cigarette smoking was good for us until too many people started dieing of lung cancer. I am only 33 and I still remember flying on air planes that were filled with healthy people smoking and getting even healthier from it. I am sure glad they did a 2nd study on the subject 21 some odd years after people kept getting blisters on their lungs and found out the original study had some flaws. It's kind of like running in circles around a problem is it not? Simple facts show there just has to be additional factors contributing to the continued serious yacht blistering problems. I am not talking about 10 or 15 blisters I am talking about full blow pox even on new yachts.

*Travis E. Towle
Topeka, Kansas

785-357-1004
Looking into the 1974 era Gulfstar's Center Cockpit 41' - 55' Ketch's or Sloop's*


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Nobody's going to tell you ANYTHING until you tell us about this Mensa.orgasm. That's the deal. Now start talking or go away.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*Here is a picture of my bilge*

it is gel coated like Mainsails and is as slick and finished as the hull exterior... it has an additional 18" x 10" x 6" deep well that the main bilge pump and float switch reside in. This is the only area of my bilge where there is constant water as it takes about 2" to activate most bilge switches...I think this is an excellent design feature of my boat and some one was really thinking..But I have blisters at the bow and as mentioned on my rudder...neither of which are in contact with the bilge water...

The Black box in the bilge is the shower sump and is not part of the bilge..it is a separate plastic box with its own float and switch ..there is always 2" of water in this box... as mentioned before thats how floats work..but again it is not in contact with the boats fiberglass..

The actual 6" deep sump is below that...you can see the round top of the Rule pump. This is the only area of my bilge that remains wet...about 360 square inches on a 41' boat...there is no way capillary action is pulling water 20' in either direction and up hill 3'


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Stillraining, *wow - your bilge is very nice and clean - compared to tons of others I have seen lately. I like that feature. It also looks like your bilge is gel-coated unlike lots of the older yachts I have looked at. How bad is your blister problem? What's the bottom coated with?

*Sailhog,* I guess that would be a nerds.orgasm??? lol

Sincerely,

*Travis E. Towle
Topeka, Kansas

785-357-1004
Looking into the 1974 era Gulfstar's Center Cockpit 41' - 55' Ketch's or Sloop's*


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Stuffing boxes*

Dripless Stuffing Box









Traditional Stuffing Box










P.S. Perhaps after you and your Mensa pals solve the osmotic blistering problem you could help us out with the following problems.

1) Why standing rigging suffers from fatigue and requires periodic replacement?
2) Why a diesel engine will glaze the cylinder walls if run at idle too long to charge up the batteries?
3)Why no one has been able to find a way to build a totally water proof rudder?
4) Why there are no bedding compounds or sealants that will keep water out of the decks permanently?
5) Why galvanic corrosion still plagues yachts even with proper bonding and sacrificial zincs?
6) Why we can't prevent and stop crevice corrosion?
7) Why sail makers can't produce sails that last the life of the boat?
8) Why running rigging does not last the life of the boat?


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Travis,

I find you theory intriguing, but inconclusive. 

You may be aware that I have been involved in the design, construction, and sailing of vessels built entirely of Legos since the 1960s. Sure, go ahead and laugh, but those of us involved in this field consider it an important and respected subspecialty of naval architecture. 

The reason I mention this at all is that we in the Lego-boatbuilding field long ago observed that our vessels are devoid of the osmotic blistering problem experienced by vessels constructed of FRP. FRP as you know stands for "Fibre-Reinforced-Plastic". Legos, on the other hand, are just plain plastic. Based on this difference, we conclude that it is the fibres themselves that cause the blistering, not the water.

It may also be worth mentioning that some larger fibreglass vessels now come equipped with hot-tubs.

Finally, Welcome to SailNet!!


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## capngregg (Feb 8, 2007)

Travis,
I have a 22 ft. South Coast Sea Craft that I have been restoring/refitting to my liking. (read spending more money on it than its worth) I don't have a lot of money to throw around although I can afford a much larger boat but this one fits my needs at this time. ( I have to show the wife how much fun a sailboat is cuz she really likes our powerboat)

Anyway, this boat started life in 1971 in Shreveport, La. and made its way to Michigan in the UP where it lived and was sailed on Lake Michigan. (it was in a wet slip for 15 years and was only hauled during the winters) From there it worked its way back down to Biloxi, Ms. after sitting in someone's yard for sale for 5 years. The next 13 years the boat sat in the salty gulf water in a slip and was rarely used.

In 2004 this boat was given to a friend of mine. (his parents in Biloxi were the owners for the last 13 years) His wife subsequently told him to get rid of it once he started working on it and it was given to me in 2006. Enter my new project boat a 1971 SC 22. I started working on it in Feb of '07.

After evaluating the condition of the boat I determined that it needed a complete refit inside and out. Totally trashed but it had a dry bilge. (read it didn't leak anywhere) The first thing I noticed but the last thing I am dealing with before putting it back in the water is the blistering of the FRP below the waterline- stem to stern. I knew it was there since I examined the gelcoat during my evaluation and noted that, 1) this boat in all 37 years of its life has never had bottom paint on it. 2) the condition of the gelcoat (although very thick) was of course old, oxidized and had mirofractures throughout every square inch of the it, above and below the waterline. Surprisingly enough you had to use a magnifying glass to see the micofractures below the waterline. I stripped all of the gelcoat off the hull up to about 2" above the waterline. There were no blisters noted above the waterline anywhere else on the boat. Even though there were areas of gelcoat that were chipped away on the decks, coachroof and cockpit, I didn't find any blistering in those areas even though they had been exposed to "water" for many years judging by the gray color of the exposed fiberglass.

The hull on these little boats is quite thick and none of the blisters are very deep but it appears that they all formed due to ingress of water from outside the hull and were working their way through the structure. I can easily repair all of the damage but the point I want to make is that maintenance of a boat is a big help but there are some things you may never be able to prevent such as blistering.

I think it has alot to do with the initial layup of the hull despite the materials used to build the boat.(unless they are just plain substandard) This boat was about as neglected as they come and it is still salvageable with ease. (at least to someone like me that enjoys doing this kind of work) I will say that I am using vinylester materials along with several epoxy barrier coats during this repair. I will not reinstall gelcoat either but use a two part epoxy paint for the "below the waterline" portion of the boat. I have done this on previous boats and never had a recurring problem with blisters.

This boat will be kept on a trailer and only sailed on a freshwater lake here in Texas so I know this one will be okay.

Saltwater or low ph fresh water combined with marine growth seem to be the real killers below the waterline. IMHO. There are many variables that could lead to blisters below the waterline however wet bilges don't seem to be a major issue with hull blistering. Using the best materials you can find for the repairs will help stave off the next event though.

Boats will be Boats.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*Yes it is gel coated*

And as stated just as smooth as the hull...I have a fairly sever case of blisters by most peoples standards several hundred. My boat was built in your 1983 vinilester period. I have a bolt on Keel as you can see...There are over 100 blisters on the keel...not part of the bilge either...I will not do a peal job but will grind out each one in large sections at a time...doing this in several phases over the next 2 to 3 years...I just applied new bottom paint this year so will just live with them again this season...most are the size of a pea or less...two were the size of a quarter..I left those two open and unpainted and will repair in the coming month when our weather warms up enough for epoxy work.

Here is another shot of my bilge. You can see how shiny the gel coat is..I own a boat a lot of sailors think little of ..I dont now why..they are nice boats..

Anyway... Sorry ...I cant agree with your theory...Its the lay up materials or quality of layup period... Blisters and saturation are two different things...You dont need one to have the other..

Edit: My boat came from southern waters where they never get hauled other then repairs..I will be hauling every year for 5 to 6 months this should in itself prevent further blistering...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Thanks for your post guys you are being very helpful!!!*

This one is WAY out there and I thought it was interesting to ponder and another probability I will bring up to the Professor when I contact him this week.

On my local Mensa forum one of the members read halekai36's post on this subject and brought up Electrolysis Issues with yachts. They are stating that fiberglass is a good dielectric "A nonconductor of electricity, especially a substance with electrical conductivity of less than a millionth (10-6) of a siemens. It mostly has no ability to conduct electricity, generally as a result of having no electrons that are free to move." But it still has some microscopic properties of conductivity that are so small they take special tools to be measured. This varies by the type of material used to make the fiberglass yacht structure. This microscopic conductivity goes both ways.

They are trying to find out just how good of a dielectric a fiberglass bottom yacht is. Their thought is that it might be possible for microscopic holes to be popped in the gel coat & outer protective coats just by sitting near a highly reactive yacht causing your yacht to "buzz more" that would allow small water penetration under the coating. They say a reason could be the galvanic corrosion problems and this would be seen more in warmer waters due to the properties of electrolysis. This is a flag I was looking for; because it has already been stated here that blistering is more common in warmer waters and basic electrolysis works better the warmer the water is. These two could be tied together.

*Can anyone tell me if you have experienced more "galvanic corrosion" near other yachts then you have out on your own?* *In other words are there any problem yachts that really cause you to start loosing your protective zincs faster but only when you park near them?*

*Travis E. Towle
Topeka, Kansas

785-357-1004
Looking into the 1974 era Gulfstar's Center Cockpit 41' - 55' Ketch's or Sloop's*


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Travis...with respect...the problem of blistering and what causes it on boats was investigated and resolved 20 years ago by a guy with a PHD in Chemical Engineering and accepted since then by the American Boat Building association and the coast guard...people who spend their lives in and around boats and the materials that make them. 
As far as I know...your sole reason for challenging this is that some hot tubs don't blister. And lots of boats do. You don't have a chemical engineering background and you don't know any more about these materials than the average guy walking into an Ace Hardware store. No one else here does either as far as I can tell. 
I have given you a link to the one person on this earth who I know can respond intelligently to your question. Why not follow up on that if this is such a passion with you? You will learn nothing further here.


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

travistowle said:


> *SailorMitch,* I expect a 74 Gulfstar will have a few blisters but not a total small pox situation. I will check out that link and read up on their systems. I also found this site interesting - epoxyproducts.com/blister4u.html but his way of explaining his fix is puzzling and hard to understand. When was your last pullout and how well did the stuff you used protect the hull from re-infection?


My boat spent two straight seasons in the water. I had her hauled back in November, and the bottom has no sign of blisters re-appearing anywhere.

You and your Mensa cohorts are guilty of what I have seen termed as "paralysis by analysis." What is usually missing from that condition is a good dose of common sense. And now I see your paranoia about blisters has spread to electrolysis. Entire books have been written on that topic. Check Amazon.

Good luck with finding your Gulfstar.


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Cam,
Seems to me that you and everyone else on this forum has a problem with the people at Mensa.orgasm. Seems to me you might be part of the dreaded "hull blister repair industrial complex." White is black, black is white! NOthing is what it appears to be! Shadowy figures on the grassy knoll! This place is swarming with CIA! Mensa.orgasm! Save me!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Travis-

It would also help if you didn't attack the people here who are trying to help educate you. If you've already gotten your mind made up about fiberglass being such a poor material for a boat... then you might want to stop sailing, since a majority of the production boats are made from the stuff. Osmosis is a problem, has been a problem and will continue to be a problem. Most hot tubs do not sit filled with water for years on end, which is sometimes the case with boats. Most hot tubs aren't sitting in water as well as having water sitting in them. Most aren't in salt water. Most hot tubs don't suffer from conditions of use that see them flexing and getting stressed by the forces sailing in heavy weather does to a fiberglass boat. The comparison really just isn't valid.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

*Camaraderie, *with all due respect it may have been studied 21 years ago and accepted but it has not been resolved has it? I am learning a lot from lots of different people here. It was once accepted in the 1950's that everything that can be invented was already invented and life would get no better - how correct they were! One thing you need to understand is *THIS PROBLEM IS NOT FIXED*. *You can not even start to argue that it is!!!* So there must be more to this issue. One guy says the world is FLAT and the government's guard takes it as fact - that is understandable but I am very surprised that you refuse to even question what you read. FACT: The world is OVAL and you will not fall off the edge of it! FACT: The blister problem is not fixed thus the "accepted study" must be incorrect. I think fiberglass is a great item to make boats out of, but this problem can not be fully understood if it is still a problem.

I have learned from this post and will continue to learn new things like:

*Stillraining* yacht is newer, has a coated bilge, and it has a very dry bilge and it still has problems.

Thanks to *halekai36* and several others I have learned about the various Stuffing boxes that are designed to keep a yacht dryer.

*Capngregg* had some great insight on this issue that I learned a lot from!

*JohnRPollard *added some more insight.

*The only way to learn more about it is to question everything and learn from other peoples input.*

*Travis E. Towle
Topeka, Kansas

785-357-1004
Looking into the 1974 era Gulfstar's Center Cockpit 41' - 55' Ketch's or Sloop's*


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

This guy's a troll looking for a sensational reaction - google his moniker.

He's been put on my ignore list.


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

A few things I'd like to add here:

1) The dielectric properties of fiberglass haven't got much to do with electrolysis, but I'd be willing to bet THAT THE SEAWATER THE BOAT SITS IN MAY BE A SLIGHTLY BETTER CONDUCTOR, AND AS SUCH A BIGGER FACTOR!

2) If bilge water causes osmotic blistering (I think I read that correctly), THEN WHY DO BLISTERS SOMETIMES OCCUR ON THE RUDDER AND ON THE KEEL OF A FIN KEELED BOAT WHERE THERE IS NO BILGE WATER ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AFFECTED AREA?

3) I'd like to present my own theory. I think it's the tooth fairy keeping busy in the off season.

4) Kansas has residents qualified to be in Mensa?!?! 

5) JuanRPollard, fantastic post! See, you really are an AFOC


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*Yes*

Quote=Can anyone tell me if you have experienced more "galvanic corrosion" near other yachts then you have out on your own? In other words are there any problem yachts that really cause you to start loosing your protective zincs faster but only when you park near them?

Travis E. Towle
Topeka, Kansas

I was once moored to a boat with a faulty wiring system and his stray currents almost destroyed my out drives..All my zincs which were only 2 months old were completely ate up..then the sacrificing of my out drives started..

This dammage only took 3 months to accomplish..

I cant find the pictures I had the mechanic take right now...I will post when I do.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

TB-

Thanks for the heads up.


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

TrueBlue said:


> This guy's a troll looking for a sensational reaction - google his moniker.


This is some good reading


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

*Mystery solved...?*

Wait.... I think I know now what the R.O.D. is for.


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

TrueBlue said:


> This guy's a troll looking for a sensational reaction - google his moniker.
> 
> He's been put on my ignore list.


Thanks. As a former boss would put it -- whack job -- as if we didn't know that already. But just when I was hoping he'd have the joy of smelling epoxy, or seeing his prop the size of a needle from electrolysis.....


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

*I disagree about the troll stuff. He is exactly who he says he is and I see no evidence of troll like behavior elsewhere. He is a member here and unless someone has specific accuasations to make backed up by facts I will insist that his ideas be the only things attacked. You can put him on ignore. You can avoid his posts. You can refute his ideas but let us not stoop to personal insults.
*


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

travistowle said:


> They say a reason could be the galvanic corrosion problems and this would be seen more in warmer waters due to the properties of electrolysis. This is a flag I was looking for; because it has already been stated here that blistering is more common in warmer waters and basic electrolysis works better the warmer the water is. These two could be tied together.


OK, Mr. Mensa, for a genius, you don't seem to know a lot about what you are blathering about. First the whole "the accepted theories on osmotic blistering are completely wrong" line of stupidity and now this.








Do you understand that galvanic corrosion and what you improperly call "electrolysis" (which is the separation of oxygen and hydrogen from water, the correct term for what you are talking about is "electrolytic corrosion") are two completely different processes? 'Cause it doesn't seem like you understand the difference. And yes, the two are tied together, but not in the way you think. Chemical reactions are enhanced by warm temperatures. How much of a friggin' genius do you have to be to figure that out?




travistowle said:


> *Can anyone tell me if you have experienced more "galvanic corrosion" near other yachts then you have out on your own? In other words are there any problem yachts that really cause you to start loosing your protective zincs faster but only when you park near them?*


There are many factors that affect zinc longevity, none of which are related to the fiberglass construction of the hull. But in answer to your question, a boat in a slip in a marina, plugged into the shorepower system is in electrical contact with every other boat also plugged into that particular shorepower circuit (am I going too fast for you?) That means if another boat on that circuit is having an electrical problem aboard, it can affect your zincs. If there are problems with the shorepower system itself, it can affect your zincs. If there are buried metal objects nearby, it can affect you zincs. But of course the most common reason for rapid zinc depletion is an electrical problem aboard the boat in question. There are a plethora of circumstances that can affect your zincs and none of them have anything to do with fiberglass hulls.

Your problem is you don't know much about boats. But you think you are smarter than everyone else in the room and so everything they tell you about boats is wrong. You think that you are going to prove that decades of modern boat building experience and the firsthand, real-world knowledge of the boat owners and marine industry professionals you come into contact with is bullsh*t. If you wonder why you haven't been greeted with open arms here, it's because you are simply another academic type with starry-eyed ideas and loud, ignorant opinions about how you are going to change the world or some part of it (try Googling "David Vann". You two have a lot in common.) But you haven't impressed any of the experts here, that's for sure.


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## peikenberry (Apr 26, 2000)

Travis: I tried to answer your pm but the system tells me I don't have enough posts to send a PM! Send me an e-mail (it's in my profile) I will e-mail the info. This is a frustrating system


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The 10 post minimum for posting links and PMs is a very successful anti-spam feature and since it's been implemented, sailnet has had far fewer porn link spamming occur.



peikenberry said:


> Travis: I tried to answer your pm but the system tells me I don't have enough posts to send a PM! Send me an e-mail (it's in my profile) I will e-mail the info. This is a frustrating system


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Peter...go to the song thread and post a few songs and you post count will be 10 and you'll have full privleges.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I've been reading and enjoying this forum for a while now but havn't felt obliged to join in until I read johnrpollard 's post, I almost blew dinner out my nose laughing. Funniest thing I've read all week, thank you Sir.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Travis,*

Travis,

Please listen to the community and listen to this info.

1) Hull blisters are the LEAST of your worries when considering buying a 45+foot boat and will amount to about .5% of the things you will have to deal with.

2) Blistering has not been resolved because it is as inherent to GRP as UV oxidation/degradation are to GRP. So why haven't they solved the oxidation problem of GRP? After all, an Awlgrip job costs as much as most blister jobs and far less than most any large deck re-core & re-paint. Blistering has been greatly minimized but will most likely not go away anytime soon. Just as corrosion of steel hulled boats won't go away neither will osmotic blistering.

3) In the big scheme of boat owning hull blisters are not even on the radar of most boat owners and are less of a nuisance than 80% of the other headaches associated with boat ownership!

4) No matter how high your IQ you will never keep a bilge totally dry no matter what "high levels of maintenance" you give it!

5) For someone wishing to buy a 45+ foot boat you have a LOT to learn and your letting your inexperience bog you down on meaningless issues such as hull blisters.

6) I've done a blister job on a 30 footer in two weekends and about $400.00. In the big scheme of boat ownership two weekends and $400.00 is NOTHING to even blink an eye at. $400.00 in the world of boat ownership is like pulling .25 cents out of your pocket and putting it into a gum ball machine. It's NOTHING!

7) I'd suggest you spend the next three days, maybe 24/7, (obviously it would take us mere mortals three weeks) reading this forum so you have a real idea, and not just some fantasy, of what boat ownership actually is.

8) Pontificating about your Mensa level smarts holds no water with most here and only makes those of us who have been working on, sailing and living boats for years grimace. You may be book smart but you still have a lot to learn about boats. You will learn if you can be willing to listen.

Go read about boats, maintenance and ownership then come back and talk to us..

P.S. In my experience folks who brag about their IQ, especially on the on the internet......???


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Well said Halekai.  

Travis—

BTW, Albert Einstein sailed, but I doubt he bragged about his IQ when doing so.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Your correct - I don't' know anything about galvanic corrosion. That would be why I am asking about it.

*FSTBTTMS* You also say _"OK, Mr. Mensa, for a genius, you don't seem to know a lot about what you are blathering about" _- YEP - that would be why I am asking the questions to you guys who would know the answers. I am truly trying to understand all directions here - I am not trying to cure the world, fix the flipping problem, or win an award, I just know more about THIS plague that awaits me when I buy a fiberglass GulfStar. I am also wondering why this plague would still exist when you guys state over and over what the cause is and have known how to avoid this for 21 years...

*BUT *I do know about electrolysis and I just so happen to have an electrolysis machine in my garage. Looking over a aluminum magnet spacer off one of my Ford Model T transmissions I dipped into the solution the process did the exact same thing that is displayed on the corroded areas of the mast base that I posed pics of on this site about 1 - 2 weeks ago. SEE - "Keel Stepped mast corrosion question." In talking with people at westmarine about this they said it is exactly the same as my electrolysis process. Their response was about the same as the boards for the mast fix, and that was to raise the keel step up out of the water to prevent electrolysis on the mast base. And use lots of their zincs. I passed on that boat so it does not matter now.

You also say "_Your problem is you don't know much about boats_" = YEP I grew up around C-Scows, Lasers, and Snipes. We did not have electricity on our boats so we never ran across problems like this before. We also never had blisters because we always racked our boats out of the water.

*halekai36* - thanks for the info. Laugh at me all you want about IQ - the only reason that mensa was even brought into the typing is to answer a question about "hot to cold". I don't remember stating anywhere on this board what my IQ level is but since you brought it up you are a little low. Laugh all you, spit in my face all you want too because I really don't care - I am 33 and the last job I had was when I was 19. As for reading up on the forum thanks for the tip, but I have started that already and I am on page 250 of the gear & maintenance search. The reason I focused on the blisters is because it seems to be one the main questions of repair problems.

*I guess since you guys want to spend all your time slaming me I will leave now and not come back. This way you can go on and be kings in your own little worlds.*

*By the way, there were a few of you that are really nice here, but for the most part I have never met such a strong group of pompous jerks before now.* Don't sail too far into the horizon or you just might fall off the end of the world - at least that was one of the accepted conclusions from a study once done!

Travis E. Towle
Topeka, Kansas

785-357-1004
Looking into the 1974 era Gulfstar's Center Cockpit 41' - 55' Ketch's or Sloop's


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

travistowle said:


> I don't remember stating anywhere on this board what my IQ level is but since you brought it up you are a little low.


You didn't post your IQ here that's why I said "on the internet."

As in: Travis E. Towle - My Space

*"It's not all bad because in the 6th grade I was tested by some local shrinks and found to be a genius with an outstanding IQ of 163. That number got higher with time. But it is not cracked up to be what people think. I can do anything, and if I do not know how to do something I learn quickly."*

P.S. Don't take it so hard there buddy but you came in here like a bull in a china shop then even contradicted yourself a few times to boot. Sure we can get testy, especially this time of year, but show us what you've got and we will respect that!

Oh and you do have decent taste in music!


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

travistowle said:


> ....... *I just know more about THIS plague that awaits me when I buy a fiberglass GulfStar*......
> ...... I don't remember stating anywhere on this board what my IQ level is but since you brought it up you are a little low. Laugh all you, spit in my face all you want too because I really don't care - I am 33 and the last job I had was when I was 19.........
> 
> *I guess since you guys want to spend all your time slaming me I will leave now and not come back. This way you can go on and be kings in your own little worlds.*
> ...


Please don't go Travis. I was just about to ask you to explain the Unified Field Theory. If you can, dumb it down some becuase I'm clearly stuck on stupid. Is there a coloring book version of A Brief History of Time? The print version is soooooooooo long and boooooring!

After I get done coloring the wormhole page will you explain to me how I too can stop working "a real job" and achieve such phenomenal success and vast knowledge?

Oh, by the way, everyone knows that the Flat Earth Society currently endorses a model where the flat earth disk is bordered by a wall of ice.....YOU CAN"T SAIL OFF THE EDGE! Isn't that cool! Just watch out for the icebergs! Weeeeeeeeeeee.............


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

Travis,
I'm sorry, honest. I'd like to personally apologize for the way these neanderthal act around this forum. Here, in good faith I'll show you a forum where the members will be more responsive to your theory of bilge water blisters, and the idea that conventional blister wisdom is nothing more than pure lunacy. These guys will hear you out, and most likely without such judgemental, juvenille, ridiculous, and just plain facetious comments as you've encountered here.

I also recommend that your entire local Menstra organization join and enlighten them with your vast knowledge and superior thought process. There is one individual in particular that frequents the forum and could surely prosper from your insight. He goes by the screen name Bob Perry. He has some good ideas, but could use some help from more forward thinking persons, like yourself and your organization.

Here Travis, try this forum instead:
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/index_page1.php

Enjoy


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*Travis,*

It has taken many years to gather the evidence as to all the blister stuff..
and even though there is a basic knolage as to how to control its occurrence in modern boat production and or repairs..The one factor still messing it up is *us...*

We still manually mix our resins and hand lay up our boats and repair jobs..Digging into the information seems to always lead back to improper wetting out of fibers or improper ( incomplete) curing of resins allowing for the water intrusion (most commonly from the outside) which then starts the chemical reactions that I don't even pretend to understand.

I like your questioning of the validity of the studies...and your willingness to question us with your theory...no one here claims to have the silver bullet...I think you will eventually come to the same concultions in your search..if not and you really do come up with some revolutionizing system...I will be one of the first in line to buy it..

PS: 
I think every one here has been pretty frank with you about there experiences and remedies...some of us pull the trigger a little faster then others as far as patients or criticism goes but I have spent enough time dealing with people in my 50 years on this planet to not find that any different anywhere Iv been ... stick around.. I personally learn from everybody...


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

Sapperwhite said:


> Travis,
> Here Travis, try this forum instead:
> http://www.sailinganarchy.com/index_page1.php
> 
> Enjoy


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

travistowle said:


> In talking with people at westmarine about this they said it is exactly the same as my electrolysis process.


Went right to the experts, did'ja? Bwhahahahahaha!


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

> Travis: the only reason that mensa was even brought into the typing is to answer a question about "hot to cold"...


That "hot to cold" mensa test question was the only question that kept me out of the mensa club myself - so I can see why you picked up on that and needed to validate it with your IQ....Let us know if you actually find the proof on your theory and please post pictures when you do....I never understood mensa but then again I stay away from clubs that are a few letters shy of menstraul as I do not want to be reminded of the process....But its nice to see some really bright people online here... Keep up the good work....


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

travistowle said:


> One guy says the world is FLAT and the government's guard takes it as fact - that is understandable but I am very surprised that you refuse to even question what you read. FACT: The world is OVAL and you will not fall off the edge of it!


I can't stop reading this thread, it is a great source of entertainment on a long lonely night shift.

Actually, travis, the world is not an oval. *FACT:* An oval is two dimensional. *FACT:* A sphere is three dimensional. *FACT:* The world is three dimensional. I'd liken the world to be something more of a sphere, you know the three dimensional one. If you'd like I can lend you a high school geometry book that I had failed to turn in, these *FACTS* are printed within. That is unless you would concider a high school math book printed in the early 90s to be too far out of date to be concidered *factual*. I also am in possesion of a globe, this globe is a scaled representation of the world. This globe I speak of is also three dimensional. I'm unsure of my globes date of manufacture though, so it too may be out of your time range to be concidered accurate. *Fact:* you should go back to Menstra and get recertified.

Your claim of being such a supposedly smart guy keeps getting marred by your presentation of claimed "FACTS".

You claim that you come here to learn, then stop letting your academic pedigree get in the way of the *FACT* that you don't know jack about boats, even with your escow experience.

It doesn't ,matter anyway. We all represent the boating industry, and as such we are out to get your money through the planned obsolescence of our products....Muah HAHA....Muah HAHA...MUAH HAHAHAHA!

Hog, This is one of those guys that doesn't have opinions, correct? I think I'm getting the hang of this now!


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Travis, I copied this off of your my space page:

"There is a fine and extremely straight line between genius and insanity – unfortunately I stager!"

I think we all agree about something now!


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

Travis is the third person I have encountered in life who brags about being in Mensa. All 3 have been exactly alike -- you can't tell them anything. If life were only capable of being reduced to a mathematical equation.....

Incidentally, I am proud to be President of the local Densa Society. 

If his IQ is 163, sounds to me like his PHRF rating is a tad high.

Why doesn't he concentrate on curing the common cold? That should be a piece of cake compared to osmotic blisters. 

Other than paranoia about blisters, what is he trying to prove anyway? I still don't understand where he expects to go with this.

Oh well!


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## sailhog (Dec 11, 2006)

Sapper,
I just consulted with my local mensa.orgasm buddies, and they suggest that Sailnet members with herpes should refrain from drinking water during an outbreak, and those of us with boats with blistered hulls should apply Valtrex to the bilge.

On a related matter... last night I was picking my nose and I pulled out my biggest booger ever! Some of my Mensa.orgasm buddies are throwing a party for me tonight to celebrate. We're going to have root beer, Sprite, Seven Up, Pepsi -- the whole shebang! We're going to get crazy!


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

I'm not going to offer any personal opinions here, just that little texas saying....

"bless his heart"

Please do not take this as a personal affront, but you stroll in, tell people who have answered your question (_people that have probably combined over a CENTURY of boat ownership, repair, experience_) that because a hot tub doesn't blister, boats have been made wrong all these years...

Bubba, you're just itchin' for a couple of smart-ass responses.

You want to know the best thing about my life?
I'm paid handsomely for my opinions. 
I don't really care if the people writing the check follow my recommendations or not, as long as the check clears. I'm still paid. 
I know I don't know everything, I even know what I don't know. While I'm sure you're a really nice guy and even drink the right beer, have the right girlfriend, the right pet, have a wondeful house and car, have the world by the ballz and your dream catcher is full.

I'd suggest to you one thing....Listen to people that have been there, done that, got a free tee-shirt rather than believe a stack full of papers. Hey, its up to you.

Bless your heart.

Ok, I assume you're looking for a gulfstar.
These are pretty decent boats. 
Forget about the blister cure for all time for a second willya?

oh, wait, don't... hang on, news flash...
If the boat you're been looking at is in "cold" waters, rather than "warm", the likelyhood of you having a "problem" with blisters is going to be exponentially less.

It's been said before but bears (bares) repeating, if you're really looking at a 45 ft boat, blisters are going to be the least of your worries.

I also think you said somewhere, its not worth going back and looking but something about "spending 250k on a boat then 400 a foot for repairs.
Welcome to the joys of boatownership. 
If you find a gulfstar worth 250k be sure and tell me the name of THAT broker. It must come equipped with 19 year old virgins.

I need coffee and a nap.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

goldsailor said:


> I've been reading and enjoying this forum for a while now but havn't felt obliged to join in until I read johnrpollard 's post, I almost blew dinner out my nose laughing. Funniest thing I've read all week, thank you Sir.


You're welcome, sir!

I just thought this thread was due for a little levity...

And, of course, Welcome to SailNet!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sapper—

Once again, you've proven how evil you can be... sending that poor genius over to sailinganarchy is like putting kittens in a pirahna tank...


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Sapper-
> 
> Once again, you've proven how evil you can be... sending that poor genius over to sailinganarchy is like putting kittens in a pirahna tank...


Hey, all I said was: 


sapperwhite said:


> ........I'll show you a forum where the members will be more responsive to your theory..........


I never said the response would be either positive or negative.

I thought Chuck was in Menstra, why doesn't he act like an amateur brain surgeon?


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Sapperwhite said:


> Hey, all I said was:
> 
> I never said the response would be either positive or negative.
> 
> I thought Chuck was in Menstra, why doesn't he act like an amateur brain surgeon?


In Sappers non-paid defense - he didn't do what I have done and recommended the link and state "Tell them DoubleReef sent ya"....Sap was pretty tame actually...I admire his civility in the matter


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

First of all, Travis is partially correct, there is some evidence that some forms of blistering are triggered by water that enters the laminate from the interior of the boat and that the moisture pressure increase from water kept in the bilge can add to that form of blistering. That form of blistering often occurs near keel stubs and in keel encapsulation envelopes where the laminate is generally not as well because of difficult access and so is more pourous andwhere water is left standing. That form of blistering is easy to recognize because the blisters tend to be constricted to a band near the bilge and keel encapsulation envelope. 

It is a mistake to say that blisters only occur below the waterline. There are types of blistering that do occur above the waterline, but in most cases the osmotic blistering that most of us think of does occur below the waterline. 

At least in the studies that I have seen of boats that have had careful peels and repair, the blister repairs are close to permanent. I think that Travis is correct that in some cases, no matter how careful the repair is made, the blisters return and in some cases the failure can be traced back to pourous original laminate being damaged by water seeping through the hull laminate from the bilge. 

Travis is mistaken when he says that hot tubs rarely blister. At least in my career as an architect, I routinely encounter roughly 10 year old fiberglass hot tubs that have some amount of blistering and occasionally see them where the blistering makes the worst case of boat blisters seem mild. You don't see blistering with whirlpool tubs all that often, probably because they spend a very small percentage of their time with water in them.

But as a long term participant on this forum I am a concerned that this has deteriorated into such an agressive food fight. Come on folks, the name calling and ad hominum attacks are really inappropriate.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Jeff,

I agree we may have been a tad harsh but when he came in here poking holes in other farily well accepted and validated research and making claims such as this:



travistowle said:


> If this were really the problem you would see this damage on every one of the gel coated fiberglass Hot Tubs, Jacuzzis, and Swimming pools - and you don't! *NEVER!!! *You just don't ever see this.


Then only a few hours later in post #32 says this:



travistowle said:


> I just talked to a district rep for AtricSpas about this problem. He said "_the only time they run across the problem of blisters today is when someone gets a deep scratch in their coating exposing the glass mat and water gets into the hand laid matting. Then the blisters will show up in that area flow outwards slowly moving away from the scratch point of entry. If this issue is not addressed in a timely manor the blisters will continue to expand away further from the source of entry." _This would "kind-of" fall into category #2, #3 & #5 of my first post.
> 
> He also said _"Today they don't have any real problems with blisters at all, but they did in the mid 70's to early 90's. Today they offer a lifetime warrantee against any defects in the shell."_ Again this would fall into category #1.


Hmmmm??? While his thinking may have been somewhat intuitive the manner in which he brought his ideas to the table were, to some, offensive..


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

And someone somewhere on this board asked if it were okay to have water in the water tank since blisters could develop? I've yet to see anyone do an epoxy barrier coat on the inside of their fiberglass water tank.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Seabreeze-

The guys who make my boat did an epoxy barrier coat on the inside of the fiberglass water tank. They used CeramKote 54, which is an epoxy coating that is specifically designed for potable water tanks.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

*All right!*

everybody in the sand box go take a timeout...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Just My thoughts but the handling of the fiberglass used in the layup could account for the variety and range of blister problems. Cloth contaminated with dust oils foot traffic would gave excessive amounts of strange thing for the H2O molecules to bond with forming the blisters. In addition improper resin glass ratios and areas of glass not fully wet out leave room for the water to travel. Concrete has similar problems with failures due to improper storage of rebar and other items combined into the finished product. Many admixtures are used to modify the chemical reaction and improve the hardening process. 
To many people with their shorts in a wad on this one!)


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Seabreeze-
> 
> The guys who make my boat did an epoxy barrier coat on the inside of the fiberglass water tank. They used CeramKote 54, which is an epoxy coating that is specifically designed for potable water tanks.


Well, yeah, but it's a fairly new boat, right? ;-p


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

It was not that long ago that a South African Catamaran builder had a serious problem with blisters and delimitation. IIRC it was due to high humidity and a non controlled environment. They moved north to better climes but still went bust, due to the previous builds.
Also in the mid to early 90s an Australian Pool manufacturer had some serious problems with their, heated salt water pools. Instead of calling it osmotic blistering, they called it Black spot (same thing), a blister would form pop and due to no water circulation fungus/algae would form hence black spot.


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

Jeff, back on page 1 I pointed out to Travis that bilge water has been linked to blisters in some cases, and also gave a quote from a jacuzzi site about blisters. Thus, his main arguments were debunked at the beginning. Unfortunately, he chose to ignore that info, along with the info from just about everybody else on this topic. Lots of us lost patience with his antagonistic argumentative style, and we showed it. Down through the years lots of us have lost our cool on here, including you. I just pity the professor in Rhode Island when Travis calls him about all this. My only regret is that I wasn't able to ask him his opinion of the theory of mounting a big fan on deck to blow on the sails. At least we did confirm that he does not own genius bull dogs, so he has that going for him.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

I've been reading this whole thread and I realize most of you are pretty tired of it by now. But, I would like to ask a practical question. Next week I'm going to strip all the old bottom paint off my 1976 Pearson 28. What should I do if I find there are no blisters on the hull? So far I've not been able to detect any blisters, just flaking bottom paint, so it could be that this old boat does not have blisters. Does the old "don't fix it if it ain't broke" or "a stitch in time saves nine" apply?
John


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Ccriders-

If you're going to be stripping the hull down to the gel coat and there are no blisters, I would highly recommend that you put a barrier coat on the boat. Interprotect 2000E works quite well and is really easy to apply. It comes in two colors and that can help make applying it very, very easy.


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## SailorMitch (Nov 18, 2005)

I agree with Dawg, but I recommend using MAS epoxy. It's just a matter of preference. check it out here at www.masepoxies.com. They have useful articles on what you're about to do. MAS also makes non-blushing epoxy -- no or very minor amine blush. It's also easier to mix ratio than WEST. Lots of threads on here about this as well.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

One of the reasons I like using the Interprotect 2000E is the epoxy coating is available in both white and gray. The two colors make applying it properly around the boat stands very easy. It also makes it very easy to see when or if you've sanded down to the barrier coating when removing bottom paint in the future.


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## KeelHaulin (Mar 7, 2006)

Gelcoat is sprayed onto the mold and very porous; and strand-mat is wicking of moisture. That's why blisters can form. Blisters don't form in the bilge and are not caused by bilge water because woven roving and linear layers of cloth do not wick water; mainly because the fibers wet out with resin much more easily. It's pretty rare that a blister penetrates beneath the outer layer of strand-mat. The reason strand-mat is used for the outer layer is to prevent print-through (visible cloth pattern) in the gelcoat. This cosmetic application results in blistering below the waterline if the strand-mat is not fully saturated with low solvent (proper ratio, fully cured, high quality) resin; because water will migrate through the gelcoat easily.

I did the MAS Epoxy barrier coat method. As far as application goes, it is a bit messy and you have to work quickly but I think it is superior to a paint-based barrier coat. The result is an impervious layer of epoxy bonded (glued) to the hull. To make the bottom paint adhere better I tie-coated 2 coats of Pettit barrier coat between the epoxy and the epoxy-based bottom paint. If I ever sand the hull down I will know when to stop because the tie coat is gray.

I think the cost for 5 gallons of epoxy is similar to the equivalent barrier coat paint. MAS recommends a preventetave barrier coat of epoxy on new hulls. Who says that the problem of blistering hulls was not "solved"


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## northbay (Aug 6, 2008)

Ok all good stuff. Back to the question of repair. My
Gulfstar 50 has had blister since we got her 9 years
ago. Each year I grind them out and repair. I figure at
this rate I'll have a new bottom in the next few years.
I take it this group does not agree with peeling the bottom?

Bob


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## craigtoo (Aug 17, 2007)

...I know I shouldn't respond....

Ok. Soda Blasting is probably better unless you have serious issues...

I didn't have serious issues but I didn't know all that I know now and I peeled.
The good part is... I know I have 14 layers of epoxy between the hull and the water now. I sleep easy at night. (Of course this could all change when I get her up on the lift in the next few months...)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If you're continually having issues, a peel is probably the only real fix for it...  However, peeling the gelcoat and outer layer of laminate is very, expensive, and unless you've got a really expensive boat, it may not be worth doing.



northbay said:


> Ok all good stuff. Back to the question of repair. My
> Gulfstar 50 has had blister since we got her 9 years
> ago. Each year I grind them out and repair. I figure at
> this rate I'll have a new bottom in the next few years.
> ...


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## northbay (Aug 6, 2008)

Not having a really expensive boat and having a quote of $20,000
to peel what would the thread suggest for ongoing repair?

Bob


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Bob...A gulfstar 50 should be worth the 20k peel job. It is the only *solution* and you WILL pay 20k or more to the next owner to get it fixed when the surveyor finds it. 
Alternatively...soda blast the bottom....feather each blister out, fill with epoxy filler and fair...then apply epoxy barrier bottom coats and anti fouling. This will repair the damage and slow down the process but will not take care of the already wet hull.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Cold water is a very effective defence, though you cannot choose that one often.

In Houston, I had quite a few blisters to deal with, one of them quite raised.

15 years of cold Scottish water and they have been very few indeed.

I am blessed.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

*Epoxy hulls do not blister? Unfortunatly, epoxy is $$ and harder to mold.*

At least one brand - Stiletto - has yet to have its first blister in 30 years of experience. Epoxy is great for secondary bounding, but I gather it is disliked because you can't use gel-coat (Awlgrip instead) and because it is hard to mold (it does not shrink on curing). But for the money we pay.... I have one of these 30 year old boats and don't worry over blisters in it... but I just bought a larger boat and I do worry over it.


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## GaryHLucas (Mar 24, 2008)

No one here seems to have mentioned Osmosis, except in passing. I build Revers Osmosis systems for waste water treatment, not potable water. Osmosis is a natural process where water with a higher concentration of dissolved solids will permeate through a porous membrane into water with a lower concentration, until the two concentrations are the same. This can generate a lot of pressure, enough to push water to the top of a 400' tall tree for instance! In order to make osmosis go in reverse, forcing a low concentration into a higher one takes a lot of pressure, from 300 psi to 2000 psi or more. Because we build wastewater ROs we try to drive the concentration as high as possible without actually precipitating the solids out of solution.

I saw the effect of natural osmosis when I shut down an RO system and quickly shut the 4" feed valve in a sch 80 PVC line to the high pressure pump. The pressure slowly increased until it went over 400 psi and blew the flanges off the valve! I had to put in a time delay of 2 full minutes to allow the pressure to dissipate, as natural osmosis forced water back through the membrane until the concentrations equalized.

What this says is that it is not meerly wicking driving the water into your hull, but a force powerful enough to delaminate the layers of fiberglass! Hence the reports of blister that actually spray water when punctured.


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## scottyt (Jul 19, 2008)

i am not reading it all but most hot tubs are plastic with a chopped glass back up. they are vacuum molded with heated plastic, not a gelcoat finish


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## bfhalloran (Sep 19, 2000)

*Blistering hulls*

So many opinions, so few facts. Polyester resins were and are the culprit in hull blistering. Since the increasingly widespread use of vinylesters beginning about the mid-80s, blistering is almost unheard of in boats whose hulls were laid up in vinylester.

Bernie Halloran
SV Ariadne, a C320 Catalina laid up with vinylester


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## LakeCruiser (Nov 11, 2010)

*Repair costs?*

For a 36-38 foot sloop with a few blisters, what can I expect to pay for an Inner-coat application and a paint job?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

LakeCruiser-

You'd be far better off starting a new thread asking that rather than hijacking this one. Also, please read the *POST* in my signature to help you get the most out of your time on sailnet.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

bfhalloran said:


> So many opinions, so few facts. Polyester resins were and are the culprit in hull blistering. Since the increasingly widespread use of vinylesters beginning about the mid-80s, blistering is almost unheard of in boats whose hulls were laid up in vinylester.
> 
> Bernie Halloran
> SV Ariadne, a C320 Catalina laid up with vinylester


Bernie,

Even today there are very few boats laid up or built entirely of VE resin. While some like Catalina use VE as a barrier coat only a few builders use VE for the entire hull. Morris is one who does use VE for the entire lamination.

Unless Catalina has very recently changed Catalina builds and laminates with polyester resin. They spray in a barrier coat, they describe it as a "skin coat" on the lamination schedule, which is a layer of resin rich vinylester mixed with 1/2" long max by 3/32 thick max fibers. This thin resin rich mix is sprayed into the mold on top of the ISO NPG gelcoat with a chopper gun as a second layer of protection on top of the gelcoat before they begin laminating in polyester resin.

So layer one - .018 - .020 wet film thickness ISO NPG gel Coat
Layer two - Skin Coat Resin Rich VE with Chop
This then cures to Barcol 35 hardness and the lamination of the hull begins.

The vinylester barrier boats from Catalina have also not been 100% blister free...


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## 3Kioni (Dec 5, 2008)

Are blisters really as much of a problem as they're made out to be? Are there documented cases of hull penetrations because of blisters?

There is no question that blister repair has become an industry unto itself, and quite a lucrative one. However, not having them on my 1976 Newport 30 means I haven't had to deal with the emotions associated with a surveyor (or other "expert") telling me my blistered hull won't keep the water out, and I therefore need it repaired.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Here is a link to the best explanation I have seen for blistering - it very rarely goes past the gelcoat.

Sea Lake Yacht Sales (Kemah, TX)


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

According to latest Mensa study, the two most probable causes of blistering in fiberglass hulls are:
a. Proximity to a Rocna anchor
b. firearms onboard the vessel


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## neverknow (Feb 2, 2011)

I have a dumb question....lol

As long as the blisters do not cause a leak or a structural weakness, why worry about them?

If your hull is 1" thick and you have a small blister on the surface or just under the gel-coat I'm not sure I'd care.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Gelcoat blistering, most common, is cosmetic. Serious structural blistering is rare unless you own an early Valiant, in which case it is well documented. 

See my earlier link.


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## neverknow (Feb 2, 2011)

Chris12345 said:


> So, there you have it: Boats develop blisters because they can.


I get the joke.

So are we talking about a boat covered in blisters or just a few here or there?

Sometimes ppl are looking for ways to get insurance money, plus the new boat owner wouldn't be happy to see his 1 or 2 year old boat with blisters.

I was just thinking about older boats that otherwise are in great condition, have sailed 1,000's of miles and have many 1,000's left in them.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Travis-
"I am trying to learn here guys, not trying to teach. Why are some of you guys acting like a bunch of pompous jerks?"
Well, it could be that patience is in short supply these days and all the questions you're raising, were answered 15-20 year ago pretty conclusively.
Hot tubs aren't boats. Neither are old Corvettes, another leading FRP body plastic that sees exposure to water. 
But somewhere maybe in 1990, AMOCO (I think) bought a lot of magazine space and explained that since this resin business was important to them...they'd done a lot of reasearch and found most of the answers.
So the answers HAVE been extensively documented for a long time and to hear someone asking as if this is all news...Wait, I have WCFields on the line and he says "Go awayboy, you bother me." That's WC speaking, not me.

Me, I'd suggest you contact a few on the marine resin suppliers, including West Systems, and ask them directly.

There were problems of poorly chosen resins, cost issues forcing material changes, outright poor labor practices and bad construction, vinyleseter versus polyester versus epoxy resins, fireretardants being experimented with, and a whole industry in flux from "luxury tax" inflation and other pressures.

But a boat is not a hot tub. Materials, methods, and procedures HAVE CHANGED in response to what was learned. The folks and suppliers who survived? Will be glad to talk to you directly.

Blistering? Is now a moot point. Unless you're repairing them, or looking to avoid making the mistakes of the past.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Ha! An old thread but quite a trip down memory lane. 

I think this post offered the best information:

Hull Blister Theory


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