# 1980's Sabre balsa cored hulls



## grande4 (Nov 4, 2010)

Anyone have some experience with surveys and damage from intrusion on older Sabre hulls? esp 34,36,and 38


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## lawdawg (Oct 12, 2010)

AlanGSYS on here is head of the Florida Sabre group and if you PM him should be able to give you a good bit of information the boats


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## Mikester (Jun 15, 2010)

*Sabre mast step & chain plates*

Like any + 20 year old boat you should check both the mast step and chainplates for water damage on both the SS and hull attachments. There's a very interesting article in the current " Good Old Boat " re a chainplate repair on an early Tartan.
I've looked at a few recently where the current owner's have fixed the mast step. As well member's here have documented their repairs to bulkheads. (check Sabreman's website) 
Sabre's are a very attractive boat and on my shortlist to purchase when the time comes. Right now the Mark II version looks to be very expensive especially compared to alternates in the + $100,000 market.
I too would like to see comments on the condition of the hulls. 
My guess would be that if well maintained and previously barrier coated the hull should be sound.
They were and are a well made boat and should have stood up well.
Mster


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## kd3pc (Oct 19, 2006)

I had a 38 for a few years and no hull problems at all....save scraping 10 years of accumulated paint...much like Sabreman has documented here

the mast step was a different story... it had been rebuilt along with the sole around it just prior to my purchase...IN the midatlantic it can cost several thousand to have it repaired/rebuilt. I was told my whole repair - step and unstep, rebuild and update step, and about 10-12 sq feet of sole to match the rest of the boat was a touch over $4k, dealers cost...but they knew they had to make the repair to sell the boat.

NO bulkhead repairs were needed, nor did I have any leaking in the time I owned the boat, nor did it appear the previous owner did. I did redo the deck seals around them every year, per MaineSails suggestions.

All in all a great boat, and were it not fro getting older and annoying the Ms. getting in and out of the Vberth, we would still own her. Very easy to single hand, and dock.

all the best


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

Regarding the original posted question, my understanding is that Sabres are cored from the waterline up to increase insulation qualities. I know of no issues on my 38 or any others regarding hull coring. I don't worry about it.

Regarding chainplates, those woes are well documented by myself and others for many boats. Sabres of the 80's & early 90's had a habit of poor drainage around the mast step as kd3pc indicated. Virtually every Sabre that I seen of this vintage has had the problem. Beside the structural issues, it really makes the floor unsightly. I'm sure that our boat had the problem because the PO had an entirely new floor built from teak & holly (no plywood). It must have cost a fortune. In fact, I think that I bought the boat just to have that floor. The repair seemed to comprise opening the mast step up for better drainage and pulling the floor away from the mast. You can see some of the floor in the following link.

VICTORIA (and her mistress)


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## lawdawg (Oct 12, 2010)

Sabreman- gorgeous boat!!! you have really taken great care of her


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

Thank you. When we bought her 5 years ago, she wasn't in bad shape, but all her running rigging and dress canvas needed replacement. Most everything else needed modernization (lifelines, faucets, battery charger, lighting, cushions, Nav, etc.), repair (the bulkheads, parts of the engine, pressure water), or cleanup (acres of mold, 10 years of bottom paint, etc.). I also replaced everything from the transmission to the prop (shaft seal, shaft, cutlass bearing). There was no finish on the wood so I cleaned 21 years of grime and finished it with a combination of gloss and satin varnish. Now we're working on some big ticket stuff; we have a new symmetrical spinnaker, genoa, and a main is coming this winter.

The first week that I had the boat, I got real depressed. But I kept working at the highest priority items over 4 years. Right now it's mostly routine maintenance items.

I'm a huge DIYer, for practicality, cost savings, and to know the boat. I encourage everyone to learn to sew, splice & whip, and basic engine work. The cost savings will be huge and the satisfaction priceless.


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## rayjanine (May 8, 2006)

*Sabre 38 vs 402*

Hi Sabreman:

Your 38 MK I looks fantastic and you seem to be the right person to talk to about Sabres. You did a great job on your boat. I too am looking to do alot of work to restore a Sabre. I am interested in purchasing an early 90's 38 MK II or a 402. Is there anything I should be careful about when purchasing either boat? I am leaning towards the 402 for the forward facing nav station and the galley seems to be in a better place than the 38 MK II. I am concerned about the spider cracks all over the outside deck of Sabre's and especially near the cockpit area. Does your boat have them also and what have you done to repair them, if any? How old is the standing rigging and what is your recommendation for how many years you can go without changing it? How is the Westerbeke vs the Yanmar? Have you cruised with your boat and how does she handle in heavy seas and was the Motion Comfort ok? One last question I have is on the 38 MK II is I need a shoal draft and it is my understanding that the 38 with the shoal draft is a centerboard. Any issues with the centerboards on the Sabres?

Thanks so much for your advice,

Ray


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## lawdawg (Oct 12, 2010)

Rayjanine,
Sabreman is a great guy to get information from and has been incredibly helpful as I am in the midst of buying a Sabre 42, survey next Tuesday. He can give you a much better idea of things, but I have pasted a comment he made to one of my threads, hope he doesn't mind. You also may want to PM Alangsys, who is head of the Florida Sabre group and also the broker I've been using, he owns a Sabre and has been very helpful. 

1. Chainplates where they enter the boat and attach to the bulkheads. Pay attention to rotted bulkheads where the bolts enter. Pretty common for Sabres to have delam.

2. Mast step. Many Sabres of this vintage have had clogged drains at the base of the mast. The result can be a compromised mast step and delaminated floor.

3. Lifelines. If not replaced by now, they probably should be since Sabre used coated lifelines. Check for rust stains where they enter the swaged fittings. Since the rest of the standing rigging is new, I suspect that teh lifelines are too.

4. Electrical fittings are not necessarily up to modern standards. But the electrics & electronics look very new.

5. Fresh water fixtures and hoses will probably need replacement. The head may need rebuilding. WM sells Wilcox & Crittendon rebuild kits.

The boat I am looking at is Centerboard and I haven't heard any problems in my research, just have it thoroughly inspected. Personally, I much prefer the centerboard option for the type of cruising I want to do. The mechanics I have spoken to have all had nothing but praise for the Westerbeke engine, they have all said it is very solid and dependable. I only noticed one spider crack on the boat, but Alan had more on his. The key is to have the surveyor make sure it is only surface and not structural, all of his were just aesthetic, which you can fix if you want to. As far as rigging, due to the age of the boat, I don't know if anyone can answer a question about the condition of what is on your boat. The one I am looking at was just upgraded to rod rigging, but again, the key is a good surveyor that will go over all of it and report to you any problems.
Best of luck and hope some of my limited knowledge was useful


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

First, thank to everyone for the kind comments. This is my "ultimate boat" and I have no intention to go any larger. So I'm intent on maintaining and modernizing the boat over time.

Lawdawg summarized the big things that I found. As with any older boat, regardless of pedigree, stuff will deteriorate and break. That's entropy in action, so expect it. With that said, Sabre has very high quality standards which is why their prices hold over time and why it's worth putting money into the boat. Answers to your questions:

1. You will hear a lot of discussion on the boards regarding stability, motion, etc. but simply put, these are great boats and sail very well. One of the primary reasons that we went up from our 28 to the 38 was to have more weight under us when it blew. Within 6 mos of our purchase we found ourselves transiting the Lower Chesapeake (56nm) on the fringes of Hurricane Wilma in 33 kts sustained and 5' faces. We had 1' of white water over the cabin top at times. The boat was extraordinarily stable. You'll be happy with the motion, but understand that these are generally not light air boats. Mine likes 15+ kts.

2. I have no crazing to speak of. A couple of hairline cracks, but not much. Gelcoat crazing is generally not cause for concern but your surveyor will pay attention to moisture in the area and will give you a better synopsis of the situation. If there is no water intrusion, it's aesthetic (but I'd repair it anyway). You may want to consider a fabric cover for winter (not shrinkwrap) to keep snow and ice from crevices, which can exacerbate crazing.

3. Lots of discussion regarding rigging longevity on SailNet. Ours is original from '84 and we're going to replace it in stages to spread the cost out. We replaced the lifelines this year and probably the uppers next year. If you are comfortable going aloft, you can cut costs by pulling the original rigging and sending it to a rigger for reproduction. Use halyards for temporary stays, remove one side, and have them make 2 copies. PM me if you want the name of the rigger that we used.

4. Westerbeke is a good engine and I have had to do nothing other than maintenance (new FW pump, raw pump, exchanger ends, hoses, starter solenoid, oil changes). Westerbeke is a rebranded engine and their parts are exorbitant so we crossmatch as much as possible (FW pump, filters). As near as I can tell, my W33 is a Mitsubishi sold to Vitus sold to Westerbeke. Or something like that. Yanmar is a fine engine and they sell a lot of them. Parts are cheaper since there are so many. 

5. I've had a difficult relationship with my CB. Right now, it won't go down. I think that the problem is that I froze the pivot when I faired the keel last spring. Before that, it wouldn't go up all the way. Make sure that case is cleaned of barnacles each year or it will really hinder movement. When we bought the boat, the end of cable had some meathooks, but that was an easy fix. Make sure not to over-tension the cable when you crank the board up or you'll deform the cockpit hatch to which it's attached. Don't let the CB turn you off. My issues are workable, but I need to dedicate the time to fixing it. Note that the CB is only ~110#. It's not there for righting moment; it's to reduce lateral movement and may increase pointing a little. Our board increases draft to 8' from 4'4"


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## rayjanine (May 8, 2006)

*Sabre 38 propeller shaft*

Hi Sabreman, Lawdawg, et al:

Thank you all for your valuable insight. I noticed the 38 has the propeller shaft off center (about 6 inches to port) and the propeller shaft support is also at an angle and not pointing straight down. See attached photo. It is also my understanding that this is the only Sabre model that has this design (the 362 and 402 I understand do not have this design). I am concerned that over the years the support may fatigue and possibly bend causing the propeller to hit the bottom of the boat or the keel in front of the rudder. (Motoring in heavy seas may put more loads on the propeller shaft due to gyroscopic effects where the boat moves up and down rapidly while the propeller wants to say straight). Have you heard anything about this and did you check your propeller support shaft for integrity (stiffness, cracks at the top of the support, security of attachment, etc)? How much clearance do you have between the prop and the hull? I also heard that the 33hp Westerbeke is not enough for this size boat. Have you had any problems motoring in strong currents? Are you able to do hull speed with some waves?

Thanks again for all your help.

Ray


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

> this is the only Sabre model that has this design


Not true. The offset propellor shaft was common on all Sabres through the early 90's but has was discontinued somewhere along the way. Simply put, it's more difficult to install an offset configuration than an inline system. Sabre did it in an effect to counter the rotation of the shaft and to ease shaft removal. We had this configuration on our 28 as well.

Don't worry about strut integrity. It will not fail nor distort. We're at 25 years and counting with *zero* issues. Nor have I heard of one. Keep in mind that the strut is only there for support and the angle is irrelevant since the prop is spinning, gyroscopic effects of pitching not withstanding. There is about 4" between the tip of the prop and the hull. I can't stress enough that the offset is not a cause for concern.

I feel that the W33 is a great fit for this boat. Using the rule of thumb of 2 hp for every 1000# of boat weight, that means that the boat should have a 31 hp motor (15600/1000*2). At 33 hp we have great power. We are able to do hull speed at 2200 RPM up to about 10 or 15 kts headwind. In a seaway, pounding into 2' short chop we lose maybe a knot. Compared with our Sabre 28 and its undersized engine, we're moving! The engine size was a major reason that we chose another Sabre. If I had to repower today, I'd probably chose something similar. It's a good engine and we're happy.


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## rayjanine (May 8, 2006)

*HP vs Displacement - Sabre 38*

Hi Sabreman:

Thanks alot for the info on the offset prop shaft. Glad to hear also that it is not a problem. The 38 MK II weighs 17,300 lbs without adding about another 2000 lbs of gear, etc.? That would then mean using your calculation the HP required would be 38.6hp. The HP that is installed is a Westerbeke 38B-Four which has 37hp @ 3600 rpm which may be a little under power with full gear installed.

I am also looking at a Sabre 362 which has a displacement of 14,060 lbs and has a Westerbeke 35B-Three (32hp @ 3600 rpm). Using your calculation and adding about 2000 lbs for gear etc. the HP required would be about 32.12 hp, therefore the 362 seems to have the correct engine installed. The 362 also has the prop in direct line with the center of the boat and not offset.

I also have a question concerning water coming down the mast in a rain storm and going directly into the base of the mast on the floor (not at the boot on the deck but internally to the mast). Is there any way to keep the rain out of the boat since it looks like every time it rains the bilge will get wet and require the bilge pump to go on. I realize the water will go into the sump as long as the weep holes are clear. Have you solved that problem and what did you do?

Thanks again for your advice,

Kind Regards,

Ray


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## grande4 (Nov 4, 2010)

Thanks to everybody for the replies and valuable info. with regard to the original thread for this discussion - the cored hull issue esp. as it might pertain to vintage Sabres. Lawdawg, I shall PM AlanGSYS one of these days, as you suggest, but first I must have five postings before the system allows me to do that. This is number two! I'm also looking forward to reading up on your previous posts about your boat search. I am only beginning to look at boats. I saw five recently in Mass. and the one Sabre stuck in my mind. Subsequent to that I read a David Pascoe piece about cored constuction and suddenly my sails became deflated. So thus the beginning of my "research". Chainplates, mast steps, crazing and bulkhead(?) issues have been brought up in replies- so this is a good start. Sabreman, I think you indicated that cored construction was a waterline up feature on Sabre. My understanding is that older Sabres are fully hull cored. I guess this is something I would like to verify. The pictures of your boat are fantastic by the way! Thanks again and _'m looking forward to more posts and replies to further treat this Sabre fever that I've been having..._


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

> My understanding is that older Sabres are fully hull cored.


Actually, the 38 is cored only in the forward topside sections (i.e., forward and above the waterline) for stiffness. I pulled a section from the wonderful Sabre owner's manual that details the construction details. The boat has even less balsa than I thought. The link follows.

Sabre 38 Hull Schedule

I believe, but can not verify, that the 38 was the first to have this stiffener added; none of the smaller boats had it. You may wish to contact Sabre directly to verify the models involved. They have wonderful support even for older boats and even if you bought the boat used.


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## Mikester (Jun 15, 2010)

*Early Sabre brochures mention balsa core*

Thanks Sabreman for the posting of the details of Sabre hull construction. it was very interesting.
I had downloaded original brochures from the Sabre site which describe the hulls for both Mark I and II as having balsa core material used in the construction.
Is the hull schedule you provided from current production or does it apply to the earlier models from 1981 to 1995 ?
Whether balsa cored or not they are still very attractive ! Both esthetically and performance wise.
Mster


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

The page is from by 1984 Sabre 38 User's manual.

They need to be specific regarding the use of balsa core material be cause that statement applies to what is in the user's manual.

I would recommend that anyone desiring specific construction details should contact Sabre directly. I'm sure that they will have very specific details and will put this issue to bed. We're kind of going in circles.


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## grande4 (Nov 4, 2010)

Sabreman, Thank you for posting that page from the hull schedule for your boat. Forward topsides and deck use a balsa sandwich- sounds like a good structural decision to me and of course it has thermal and light weight strength desirerables for some hard to reinforce areas. I'll check out Sabre 's site as well. Of course the key to all this cored construction controversy I think lies in the quality of the original GRP process at Shipbuilder X and then the history and maintenance of boat Y. We afford what we can and steel, carbon or graphite fibers may not be in our realm of possibilities. Thanks again for your help.


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## prroots (Nov 13, 2010)

I've been looking to buy a Sabre 32, 34-1, or 34-2 and naturally am interested in hull construction. I just got this reply from Sabre factory which really suprised me since it was not what I expected:
_Not all models were done the same. It depends on how the hull was constructed, designed, etc. Earlier models in the 70's and early 80's were just a fiberglass hull, with reinforcement in high stress areas. These high stress areas are from midships forward, right around the water-line.
Then from the mid 80's forward hulls were either fully cored, or cored from the water-line down, with the topsides solid. We never have built a model that was just cored from the water-line up. Coring is not a bad thing. It adds a lot of structural reinforcement in the hull w/o having to add a lot of glass increasing the total boat weight._
The part that surprised me was that coring was below the waterline, not above it. I would appreciate any comments especially with respect to the models referenced. Thanks
Pete


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

> Is there any way to keep the rain out of the boat since it looks like every time it rains the bilge will get wet and require the bilge pump to go on.


If you can figure that out, let me know. I must have the only boat in the world that takes on no water below the waterline, but takes on rainwater from the mast. When the floor on our boat was rebuilt, the drain holes were enlarged and the floor was cut away from around the mast. A trim ring covers the cut away. Looks nice and is effective as you can see from my link. As long as there are holes in the mast, water is coming in...



> from the mid 80's forward hulls were either fully cored, or cored from the water-line down, with the topsides solid.


News to me, especially given what's in my manual. But to be honest, I'm not worried. Our hull shows no signs of an impact that was repaired so I have no reason to believe that the sandwich (if there is one) was compromised. I see no oil-canning or other evidence of delam. Our survey showed a dry hull so I'm good. Moreover, Sabre is a builder of the highest integrity and to me, if it was good enough for Sabre, that's fine with me.

My suggestion is to take a hard look below the waterline with your eyes, get a good survey and rest easy if it checks out. These are great boats. I wouldn't have bought 2 if I didn't believe that. Just my $0.02 ... I fully understand your concern however.


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## rayjanine (May 8, 2006)

*Sabre Mast Leaks and hull*

Hi Sabreman:

Thanks again for your insight. Where can I see what you did to your mast step area to fix the problem of drainage and rot near the mast step? You did an excellent job in the bathroom replacing the rotted sections and and I love your wood working area especially the great space you have and the band saw in the background. I am sure you have used the band saw a great deal to make all those curved cuts.

Kind Regards,

Ray


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## rayjanine (May 8, 2006)

*Sabre deck gelcoat cracks*

Hi Sabreman:

I am looking at a 362 but it has deck gelcoat cracks in many areas (about 10 spots). They do not look to be structural but they do look rather bad. Do you know if they can be repaired and how expensive those repairs may be? Did your boat have those cracks in the flat part of the decks? If so, how did you repair them? I heard that Sabre sued the gelcoat manufacturer since many of the boats have them. Not sure of the years that happened but if you know the years where Sabre had gelcoat cracks in the topsides because of the poor gelcoat from a particular manufacturer that would be great to know.

I would also like your opinion of a boat sailing on a lake vs in a salt water bay. I would think the fresh water would be worse from a wood integrety point of view but from a fiberglass hull and deck point of view the salt water may be worse. Also the standing rigging, mast, lifelines, and propeller shaft, would get more damage done from the salt water than the fresh water from a corrosion point of view. Not sure of osmosis blistering of the hull and what type of water would be worse. What do you think?

Thank you,

Ray


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

> Where can I see what you did to your mast step area to fix the problem of drainage and rot near the mast step?


I didn't make the repair, the PO had it done. I don't have any detailed pics, but will be on the boat on Sunday. I'll take photos and post them on my site. To be honest, I'm not *totally* sure that he had the mast step repaired, but since the entire floor was rebuilt and since it's common for these boats to have mast step problems, I think that it's likely.


> I am sure you have used the band saw a great deal to make all those curved cuts


Not on the bulkhead. I used an old fashioned jig saw. Moving a big panel like that is hard on a band saw. 


> Do you know if they can be repaired and how expensive those repairs may be? Did your boat have those cracks in the flat part of the decks? If so, how did you repair them?


I've had no gel coat cracks. Our 1984 may predate the issues in question. It's best to contact Sabre for the dates/models in question. If the cracks are truly gelcoat cracks and do not extend into the core, then they are quite simple to fix. Use a Dremel tool ($50) to open them up and use a gelcoat repair kit and toothpick (or similar) to fill the crack. On our last Sabre, I once tried to simply push the gelcoat into some cracks without opening them with the Dremel. It didn't work. Instead of gelcoat repair kit, you can use epoxy mixed with colorant. Personally, it's what I'd do. If the crack goes deeper, the fix is a little more involved depending if the core is soggy.


> lake vs in a salt water bay


1. Salt = corrosion. Sabre uses 316 SS and is made for the sea, so it shouldn't be a problem with regular maintenance. WRT fiberglass, I don't think that it matters. The biggest worry is engine wear. Salt deposits can clog passages in heat exchangers. The good news is that heat exchangers are easy to repair or replace. I think that some people have techniques for clearing salt deposits. On our last boat, we had a water intake from the bilge and a y valve from the thru hull. Each week when we left the boat, we'd drain the fresh water tanks into the bilge and run the engine to drain the bilge. So the last water through the engine was fresh. I intend to install a y valve on _Victoria_.
2. I think that salt water can cause blisters but possibly not fresh. To be honest, we haul each year and give the boat a good 6 month dry out. Epoxy barrier coating eliminates/reduces the problem for either water type.
3. Generally, flush the deck and if possible, the engine, with fresh water after each use. This will do wonders to maintain the finish and integrity of the boat.


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## rmw2007 (Feb 7, 2012)

thanks for you incites Sabreman
Ross


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