# Toilet Troubleshooting



## LittleWingCA (Jul 17, 2008)

Hi Everyone:

I need some help from those of you who have had to troubleshoot the marine head on your boats. Mine doesn't seam to want to pull water from the thru-hull anymore into the bowl when the handle is pumped. I am not sure if this is just a priming issue or if the seals are shot in the toilet pump assembly and can't pull a suction anymore. I have verified all valves are properly opened when doing this. Any thoughts? Also, I have noticed if I just poor water in the bowl from external sources, and pump (flush) it, I can hear a girgle noise like air is trying to come back through the line to relieve pressure in the holding tank. I wonder if this suggests the holding tank vent line might be blocked some how, or again, seals are in need of replacement. We don't use the marine head much, but this started happening recently. Thoughts?


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

Model and brand of marine head?


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## Gene T (May 23, 2006)

If you have an anti-siphon valve in the inlet hose it might be stuck open. Seals get deformed on heads and need to be replaced every few years it seems. Also it is possible your vent is plugged. Especially if the hose is too long or improperly routed. So you could have multiple problems. 

You need to check the whole system.

Gene


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

*First, is the through-hull for the water intake line clear?* Barnacles could have clogged it, as could have eel grass. If either is the case, you won't have much luck flushing.

Also, when was the last time you flushed the head vent line. You really should do this on a regular basis, to prevent it from clogging. If you've over-filled the holding tank, it is very, very likely that the head vent line is clogged. *When was the last time you pumped out the tank, and was it filled to the top at the time???*

*Also, when was the last time you re-built the pump on your head unit?* If you can't answer that, it's probably been too long. 

It would probably help if you said what make/model head you had. Some are notorious for having pump issues, like the Jabsco units.

I'd point out that pumping water into the head bowl from the sea is mostly unrelated to being able to pump water out of the bowl. _The problems with one should not generally affect the other, unless the seals in the pump are completely shot. _

Some heads, like the inexpensive Jabsco units, are generally not worth re-building. Others, like the Raritan PHC or PHII units are very reliable and quite worthy of being re-built. If you have a unit like the Jabsco or even a slightly more reliable unit, like the WC Headmate 90 which has been discontinued, it might be worthwhile to upgrade your head instead of rebuilding it.

Raritan offers a PHC LBA or PHII LBA unit, which is basically the entire head minus the bowl and seat. You basically take one of these and swap the bowl and seat onto it, and voila, you have effectively a brand new Raritan PHC/PHII head for a lot less money, since the bowl is one of the heavier and more expensive elements in a new head. Think of it as recycling. *SBO has the LBA units for sale.*

BTW, I'd point out that Peggie Hall considers the Raritan PHC/PHII to be one of the best low-priced manual heads for boats. She's basically the doyenne of the marine sanitation industry...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Gene-

I seriously doubt it is that, since the anti-siphon valve is supposed to be AFTER the pump, between it and the head bowl-not in the line between the pump and the intake seacock. _Think about it.... how is an anti-siphon valve supposed to know the difference between the hose siphoning and causing a vacuum and the head being pumped and causing a vacuum in the exact same line._

*The anti-siphon valve always has to be installed on the PRESSURE SIDE of the pump to work properly-never on the intake side. *



Gene T said:


> If you have an anti-siphon valve in the inlet hose it might be stuck open. Seals get deformed on heads and need to be replaced every few years it seems. Also it is possible your vent is plugged. Especially if the hose is too long or improperly routed. So you could have multiple problems.
> 
> You need to check the whole system.
> 
> Gene


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

I had a similar problem a while ago. It turned out that the ball valve had corroded such that the stem that connected the ball itself to the handle had broken. Turning the handle "seemed" to open the valve, but actually had no effect at all; in reality, the ball was stuck partially open no matter what position the handle was in.

If you have a ball-valve on the thru-hull, take the hose off off the valve and try sticking a wire through the valve as you turn the handle. If you can't feel the ball rotate as you turn the handle then the stem is probably kaput. (Note-- A traditional seacock is built differently, and shouldn't fail in this manner.)


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## Gene T (May 23, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Gene-
> 
> I seriously doubt it is that, since the anti-siphon valve is supposed to be AFTER the pump, between it and the head bowl-not in the line between the pump and the intake seacock. _Think about it.... how is an anti-siphon valve supposed to know the difference between the hose siphoning and causing a vacuum and the head being pumped and causing a vacuum in the exact same line._
> 
> *The anti-siphon valve always has to be installed on the PRESSURE SIDE of the pump to work properly-never on the intake side. *


Maybe I need to start drinking coffee in the afternoon too.

Gene


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Start around 0600...stop before 1600...or it'll be tough to get to sleep. 



Gene T said:


> Maybe I need to start drinking coffee in the afternoon too.
> 
> Gene


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## LittleWingCA (Jul 17, 2008)

Thanks for the input so far. Lots to check out. I will check the vendor of the marine head when I visit the boat tonight. The holding tank was emptied last year, but I have no idea how full it was since I have no holding tank monitoring system. This issue started showing itself about 3 months ago. The thru hull that brings in the water was replaced 2 years ago when I had the boat hauled and should still be in great shape. There is a anti-siphen valve in the system, so I will check that and see which side it is on. I have never flushed the vent line, so that could be a problem. Not sure if the service I used to empty the holding tank would have done that or not. I can get to it so I will give that a try also. I have never rebuilt the seals on the pump so it might be time.

On a further note, how often should the waste hoses be replaced? Mine feel solid like a rock, but the "flush" never backs up, so I expect the path to be clear to the tank. Based on what type of head I have, maybe it is time to upgrade the system.


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## remetau (Jan 27, 2009)

Wow, haven't pumped out since last year? You must not use your boat enough or drink enough beer.

If you put fresh water in the bowl, can you pump that out?

Do you have a strainer on your intake line?

You could take the intake hose off the pump and see if you get water coming in through the thru-hull. That would only leave the pump.


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

If you have the origional PSC installed head, then you'll have the Wilcox Crittenden Head Mate. If you pump the handle and no water comes into the bowl then the seacock may be plugged, or the pump may be fouled (provided you have the seacock open and the red flush/pump dry handle is in the flush position). I had an instance with mine where the pump flappers were plugged up with eel grass. Its not a big deal.

Check out the exploded view diagram of the pump at this link:

http://www.chessie.com/boat/documents/Head-Mate.WC.pdf

The main area of concern for getting water into the bowl is going to be items 1 through 15 (mainly clean out the inlet valve cover and inlet flap valve #8 and #9).

To test if you have pumping out of the toilet problems, just dump some water into the bowl and with the red handle in the pump dry position trey to pump her out. If she won't pump in or out, then look at the pump handle components (#24 through #31). Not pumping in OR out would tell me the pump piston isn't tight and the #29 needs replaced.

west marine carries head-mate repair items (and i'm sure many other do too like Defender?)

Repair Kit for Headmate Head

If you are unsure or can't narrow down which single component is the problem, bite the bullet and buy the whole rebuild kit for $80. Then do a full rebuild.


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## LittleWingCA (Jul 17, 2008)

Sapperwhite & all:

Yep, I checked last night, and it is a Wilcox Crittenden RH Head Mate 90 model number 37001. So it might be original. There is no anti-syphon valve in the water inlet path at all. The hose goes from the seacock and loops up to just under the deck and back down to the pump assembly. With both the seacock open and the blue tipped flush water supply lever up, no water pumps into the bowl. Sounds like I am just pumping air. If I pour water into the bowl, and pump the black handle it will flush, but then I hear escaping air / girgling which might be a bad seal or plugged vent line. Sounds like I have at least a clog or bad seals on the intake side, and possibly a plugged vent or bad seals on the flush side. I have had the boat for 4 years now, and have never rebuilt the head, so it might be worth getting the entire $80 kit and doing it, since there is no mention in my service records of any of the previous owners ever repairing the head.

The hoses might be original as well, and I wonder what modern brands / type of sanitation hose should be used these days? 

I wonder if I should add the anti-syphon valve at the top of the intake loop as shown in the installation manual you sent? Is that recommended these days on the intake side before the pump?

Is a separate intake strainer for the head also considered a must have? I guess it makes sense if I have one for the raw water intake on the engine. Same concerns. Hmmmm.


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

LittleWingCA said:


> Yep, I checked last night, and it is a Wilcox Crittenden RH Head Mate 90 model number 37001. So it might be original. There is no anti-syphon valve in the water inlet path at all. The hose goes from the seacock and loops up to just under the deck and back down to the pump assembly. With both the seacock open and the blue tipped flush water supply lever up, no water pumps into the bowl. Sounds like I am just pumping air. If I pour water into the bowl, and pump the black handle it will flush, but then I hear escaping air / girgling which might be a bad seal or plugged vent line. Sounds like I have at least a clog or bad seals on the intake side, and possibly a plugged vent or bad seals on the flush side. I have had the boat for 4 years now, and have never rebuilt the head, so it might be worth getting the entire $80 kit and doing it, since there is no mention in my service records of any of the previous owners ever repairing the head.
> 
> The hoses might be original as well, and I wonder what modern brands / type of sanitation hose should be used these days?
> 
> ...


sounds like a clogged intake to me, and the gurgling may be the discharge side anti siphon valve pulling in air.

you may not need the full rebuild kit, just clean out the pump components and put some o-ring grease on the piston seal.

an inlet strainer is a good thing. i put a sureflo basket strainer inline, mounted under the head sink. it catches the grass and stuff before it has a chance to foul my pump. It's also an inexpensive upgrade.

something like this (get the correct size) with some hose barbs that thread into the strainer. just cut it in when you want and fasten with some hose clamps (make sure flow is in correct direction). easy fix and easy to clean out rather than have to take the pump apart.

Raw Water Strainer

they sell sanitation hose that is specifically branded as "sanitation hose". it cost more, but is treated to prevent odors. examples are Sealand "Odorsafe" or Trident "XDH".

Sanitation

West Marine: Search

Sailing Hardware: Harken, Lewmar, Schaefer, Forespar. Marine electronics from Raymarine, Garmin, Furuno, more - shop.SailNet.com

Don't go cheap, you don't want the boat smelling like poop just to safe a few bucks on hose.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Good to see you around Sapper...long time?

Just did a rebuild on my cheap jasbco one, had the Willcox original before. Took about 30 minutes. You may just consider buying a cheap one?


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

T37Chef said:


> Good to see you around Sapper...long time?
> 
> Just did a rebuild on my cheap jasbco one, had the Willcox original before. Took about 30 minutes. You may just consider buying a cheap one?


Yeah i poke my head in to play the song game, occasionally leave smart @$$ remarks about pirates and travelling without a passport, and give advice about toilets. Other than that i live in the "real" world lately. Hope everyone is doing well out there!

Did the Jabsco have the same mounting footprint as the WC, or did you have to drill new holes to mount?


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

LittleWingCA said:


> Hi Everyone:
> 
> I need some help from those of you who have had to troubleshoot the marine head on your boats. Mine doesn't seam to want to pull water from the thru-hull anymore into the bowl when the handle is pumped.


From the foregoing, evidently it worked at one point but now does not. From you response to the prior suggestions, I suspect that the lip-seal around the piston rod at the top of the pump cyclinder has died. If so, it sucks air around the rod as the handle is depressed on the down stroke which prevents raw water being drawn into the cyclinder. One test is to apply some Lanacote to the shaft and give it a few pumps. If the pump primes, the lip seal is gone. Replacng that is not too difficult if the parts are still available and merely requires the pump cycliner assembly be removed from the bowl, the piston and rod removed, the old seal pulled and a new one pressed in place. If that proves to be the case, in the future do not use any lubricant on the piston rod save a silicon based water-proof pump grease (fill the hollow in the new lip seal with that before you install it). I see many people using vasoline and the like to lubricate head piston rods and the petroleum based lubricants seem to attack the lip seals.

As a matter of routine annual maintenance, it is wise to pop the top valve off if it is removable and inject a little silicon grease into the cup of the lip seal to protect the little spring that holds the lip fast against the piston shaft.

FWIW...


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Sapperwhite said:


> Yeah i poke my head in to play the song game, occasionally leave smart @$$ remarks about pirates and travelling without a passport, and give advice about toilets. Other than that i live in the "real" world lately. Hope everyone is doing well out there!
> 
> Did the Jabsco have the same mounting footprint as the WC, or did you have to drill new holes to mount?


I know I had to drill a few new ones, at least two.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd point out that the WC Headmate 90 was discontinued two years ago. Rebuilding it may not be the wisest decision, but YMMV. My boat's original head was a WC Headmate 90 and I opted to replace it with the rARITAN PHC LBA unit I mention above.


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> I'd point out that the WC Headmate 90 was discontinued two years ago. Rebuilding it may not be the wisest decision, but YMMV. My boat's original head was a WC Headmate 90 and I opted to replace it with the rARITAN PHC LBA unit I mention above.


They stopped production of my boat in 1989, should i stop fixing it and working on it?

Head Mate rebuild kit: $80
Raritan PHC LBA: $250-275

thats provided the rebuild kit is even needed.

I could understand if parts weren't available, but they are. Unless you are going to go for the throat and get a Lavac, it seems to be to be overkill to replace the whole head. I'm frugal by no means, but there's no need to go straight to DEFCON 1.


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

Sapperwhite said:


> Head Mate rebuild kit: $80
> Raritan PHC LBA: $250-275
> 
> thats provided the rebuild kit is even needed.


I just fixed my WC HeadMate last week. I bought the rebuild kit, but the only parts I needed from it turned out to the be the intake flap valves. The metal components had rusted away completely. All in all, it took about 10-15 minutes of work to replace. I took the entire pump assembly apart anyway for inspection and the rest of it was in great shape. I just used some Super Lube on the piston and packing and it put it back together. In the future, I'm going to see if I can just get that one piece.

A new Lavac head sounds great, but is a lot more work and money than just doing the simple rebuild I did on the WC Headmate.


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Have you tried taking the hose off of the seacock? Close the seacock, take off the hose, open the seacock for a second or two. If water doesn't shoot several inches out of the tail piece of the seacock, then you have a clog or a bad valve. If that's the case, get that fixed before you bother messing with the toilet/pump itself. If it's a clogged thru-hull, you should be able to open the valve and clear the obstruction with a stiff wire, or a screwdriver if everything is "in-line". You'll let a little water into the boat, but no more than a couple of gallons. It's unlikely to be clogged anywhere else on the intake side, unless you have a kinked hose for some reason.


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

dhays said:


> I just fixed my WC HeadMate last week. I bought the rebuild kit, but the only parts I needed from it turned out to the be the intake flap valves. The metal components had rusted away completely. All in all, it took about 10-15 minutes of work to replace. I took the entire pump assembly apart anyway for inspection and the rest of it was in great shape. I just used some Super Lube on the piston and packing and it put it back together. In the future, I'm going to see if I can just get that one piece.
> 
> A new Lavac head sounds great, but is a lot more work and money than just doing the simple rebuild I did on the WC Headmate.


Thats my whole point. Why replace the head mate just because one component may need replaced.

West has the flap valve assembly for $34. Its the forth item down the list PO195-96
Repair Kit for Headmate Head


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

Also,
After some snooping around, it looks like Thetford supports the headmate now (including parts support).

Headmate

also more investigation turned up full repair kits for as low as $50.


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## 10M2Bill (Jun 30, 2010)

*Wolcox Crittenden Head - Leaking*

I've got what I beleive to be a Wilcox Crittenden Head Mate as described/discussed in the aforementioned threads.

The bowl fills with water (in a scary short period of time - less than half hour or so) if (and only if) I leave the red knob in the up (flush?) position.
I put a neat little sign next to the Head which reads;
"Caution - Don't leave the head with your knob standing up" 
Which I thought would work for awhile - It didn't.

Anybody have thoughts on which part(s) I should replace, or should I just go with the standard rebuild kit and keep my fingers crossed?


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## LittleWingCA (Jul 17, 2008)

Latest update:

Bought the head rebuild kit. In the meantime I had the head hoses replaced. The vent line was completely plugged solid. I had to have it cut out. The line from the head to the tank was 70% plugged with "scale". All lines have now been replaced. Will rebuild the head once testing is done and the rest of the refit tasks are finished enough to get in there.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"The line from the head to the tank was 70% plugged with "scale". "
Yeah, that's what happens when urine and salt water mix and sit. I was taught to "pump ten times" in order to get the line flushed out, but of course that's gonna fill the holding tank much faster.
A urinal with an illegal direct discharge valve comes to mind. If boarded, SWEAR IT IS A BIDET.


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## SUNCAT365 (Nov 16, 2010)

*head doesnt flush*

Two or three times a year my intake thru hull gets clogged with biomass. I take my hose, from my dock, into the boat. Then I connect a special purpose , mickey mouse, homemade, home depot connector to the intake thru hull and blast it back out from the inside. I also lean over the side of the dock and scrape the outside of the thru hull with something soft, like a paint stirrer, until I feel a free flow of water from the inside out. Usually does the trick.

As an aside my ant siphon is between the intake and the head and prevents a siphon from starting that would overflow the lavac and not stop until something made it stop.

Good luck


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Yes, there has to be an anti siphon on the intake line for a Lavac to work properly.


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## exitstrategy1972 (Mar 14, 2011)

@Sailingdog

I wanted to thank you for this post. About two weeks ago I read this post because I was having problems with waste water leaking back into the bowl. I had no knowledge of the previous owner's maintenance of the Jabsco, and I hadn't done any work in the year that I had my boat, so I decided to try your advice and order Peggie Hall's book on Boat Odors and the Raritan PHC from sailboatowners.

After waiting a week for the package this Saturday it was just a few hours of easy work to replace the whole pumping unit. Now my toilet flushes with authority and nothing comes back. Excellent! Thank you very much for solid actionable advice. And now I know a lot more about head maintenance!

-ExitStrategy



sailingdog said:


> It would probably help if you said what make/model head you had. Some are notorious for having pump issues, like the Jabsco units.
> 
> Some heads, like the inexpensive Jabsco units, are generally not worth re-building. Others, like the Raritan PHC or PHII units are very reliable and quite worthy of being re-built. If you have a unit like the Jabsco or even a slightly more reliable unit, like the WC Headmate 90 which has been discontinued, it might be worthwhile to upgrade your head instead of rebuilding it.
> 
> ...


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## exitstrategy1972 (Mar 14, 2011)

24 hours later my boat has never smelled so good... I assumed that the foul odor was just part of being in the marina. Wow! Thanks again...


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## DSneade (Oct 26, 2010)

The first place I would start would be to rebuild the head. As previous posts indicate, some are better to rebuild than others are. My head is a Raritan (original equipment, 1984). I have rebuilt it five or six times since we bought the boat new in '84. In fact, I always keep a rebuild kit on board - you never know! As to the hoses, I replaced them all about 5 years ago along with the 'Y' diverter. Hoses get permeated with the odor you don't want in you cabin.


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