# 2013 America's Cup



## PCP

I had posted this post on the thread about 2010 America cup. I will continue here, sice we are talking about the 2013 edition:



PCP said:


> It is not official but I have heard that the next cup will be raced on big cats (77ft) with a fixed wing.
> 
> I don't mind the cats, but I am affraid that the budget to build and race those machines would be so big that most of the teams would have no means to compete.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Well, its is official now. The Cup is going to be raced on big and expensive cats with a fixed wing (72ft boat with a 130ft mast).

http://www.cupinfo.com/en/ggyccnr34-multihull-2013-americas-cup-transformed-details-10035.php

http://www.cupinfo.com/en/ggyccnr34-new-ac72-catamaran-for-2013-americas-cup-10036.php

*But they have promised a level playing field:*

_"Russell Coutts and Larry Ellison [head of BMW Oracle] promised Challengers a level playing field - giving teams a fair chance of winning; neutral event management and *cost containment*."_

http://www.asser.nl/Default.aspx?site_id=11&level1=13914&level2=13931&textid=38163

Well, it seems that it was not only me that had doubts about that fixed wing, costs and ability to compete at equal terms. I have said that I was afraid that the budget to build and race those machines would be too big for most of the teams to compete in equal terms.

It seems I was right. One of the main contenders, the British (Teamorigin) just pulled out from the next cup. They say:

Britain is pulling out of one of the pinnacle events in world yacht racing, the America's Cup:

"A shortage of both cash and time have persuaded the boss of Team Origin, Sir Keith Mills, to abandon hopes of challenging the current holder, the San Francisco-based BMW-Oracle, in 2013.... I am bitterly disappointed that we will not be competing. The format and timetable decided by the defender is simply not viable." ...

It is believed that, apart from the Italian challenger of record, Vincenzo Onorato's Mascalzone Latino, the Swedish Artemis team and Team New Zealand, *many other potential challengers have been daunted*.

Simmer recently told The Independent that he thought the budget needed to win was well *in excess of £100m* " (*USD 160,000,000*).

Team Origin pull out of America's Cup - Sailing, More Sports - The Independent

Regards

Paulo


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## RichH

The AC is becoming very 'sad' as the clear advantage automatically goes to those with the 'deepest pockets' and excludes those who cant afford the meteoric rising costs to 'play'. 

This is not 'racing', it's 'bluffing with money'; bluffing with so much money that all the other competitors are forced to 'fold'. The name of the AC should be changed to "I Can Spend More Dough, Than You Can - Cup".


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## tdw

Well I guess it was the cost that ultimately killed off the J-Boats which led post WWII to the 12 metres and the post war resurgence that made the AmCup the prestigious event that it once again became. 

Personally I find the idea of spending USD150.000.000 on a boat race obscene. Particularly as none of it ends up in my pocket. 

Problem is I guess that mono hull match racing makes for pretty boring TV. Funnily enough of course the fastest AMCup boats of all time failed to get any TV coverage in many parts of the world.


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## rockDAWG

When did they stop using monohull in Am Cup?


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## tdw

rockDAWG said:


> When did they stop using monohull in Am Cup?


This 2010 America's Cup was the first all multi hull event. Dennis Connor (Stars and Stripes US-1) previously raced one against the Big Boat , New Zealand (KZ-1), a 120' monohull in 1988.


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## mpickering

America's Cup has gone back to being a rich man's, elitist sport. Done now by professional sailors to win a trophy for the wealthiest who can afford it. 

I watched the recent Cup race and was awed by the technology and at the same time saddened. Amazing technology but I think the spirit of the thing has been lost and gone back to nothing but an item of prestige and ego.

Admittedly, if I had Larry Ellison's money, I'd be doing the exact same thing. But after having gotten my fill of having the Cup for a few years and shown it off and lapsing into demented fantasy, I'd declare the next challenge for the Cup would be raced by 2-3 man dinghies that would have to made out of materials found at Home Depot except for sails, which would have to be cotton. Only standard wire rigging and conventional polyester lines allowed. Let the fun ensue! Competitive for the biggest yacht clubs and syndicates down to the backyard boatbuilder and their friends. 

That would be a race and contest worth watching. It would be the biggest Challenge in history. The money I would save from building the super racer I would use to buy prime time slots to broadcast it to everyone.

Matt


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## PCP

tdw said:


> ...
> Personally I find the idea of spending USD150.000.000 on a boat race obscene.
> 
> Problem is I guess that mono hull match racing makes for pretty boring TV. Funnily enough of course the fastest AMCup boats of all time failed to get any TV coverage in many parts of the world.


Andrews,

The problem is not the money. Sir Keith Mills, from the Origin team explains correctly the problem:"The format and timetable decided by the defender is simply not viable."

 By viable format he means that as it is proposed there is no way for the AC to be economically viable. This means that the race will not be able to generate the money (publicity and broadcasting rights) to pay itself (and each of the boats).

If the race could generate enough money to pay a reasonable number of $160M campaigns, I would not see any problem with it.

As it is, as RichH have said :"The AC is becoming very 'sad' as the clear advantage automatically goes to those with the 'deepest pockets' and excludes those who can't afford the meteoric rising costs to 'play'."

Regarding Monohulls versus Multihulls I would like to point out that the previous edition (monohulls) generated a lot more public interest (a lot is not enough to express the difference) than the last one ( multihulls).

I was in Valencia both times and you cannot imagine how miserable poor was the last edition.

Public interest means money!!!!and money means that the teams are paid with that money.

I believe that both monohulls and multihulls can make interesting races if the boats are fast and spectacular. But for interesting races it is also needed a considerable number of contenders and boats and teams very close on performance.

The chosen boats will be fast and spectacular, but we are going to have boring races if the contenders are only one or two, with no matched performances.

Regards

Paulo


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## tdw

Paulo,
My thinking is that by the time the 2010 challenge finally arrived everyone was bored to tears by the whole fiasco. 
Now while the previous event gained more world wide media attention it didn't get a lot of television coverage did it ?
Certainly neither free to air nor cable/satellite picked up the rights in Australia.
I don't know about the rest of world.
One of the problems to be faced is that the Little America's Cup is now indistinguishable from the Big AC in everything except the size of the boats and the multi hull regatta that was held recently (I forget the name) also takes away from the AC. 
Me, I reckon what fuels the AC is nationalism. This last schemozzle took that away. While everyone should have been cheering on the Swiss underdog v the might of the Evil Empire, Bertarelli managed to alienate almost the entire planet. What a nonsense.


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## PCP

tdw said:


> ....
> Now while the previous event gained more world wide media attention it didn't get a lot of television coverage did it ?
> Certainly neither free to air nor cable/satellite picked up the rights in Australia.
> I don't know about the rest of world.
> ....
> Me, I reckon what fuels the AC is nationalism. This last schemozzle took that away. While everyone should have been cheering on the Swiss underdog v the might of the Evil Empire, Bertarelli managed to alienate almost the entire planet. What a nonsense.


Andrew,

I disagree with your first statement and I agree with the second one.

It is very important that the AC have many contenders from all the world. If we want a world event we have to have participants from all the world and healthy Nationalism has a role to play.

Personally, back on 2007, I was supporting the NZ team and not Alinghy (the European finalist) and I was not the only European doing that. I guess that we really would like to see a billionaire with huge resources been beaten by a much smaller and "poor" team, from a small country with a big racing tradition.

Regarding your first statement I don't see that way. In 2007 America's cup was already one of the world's big event, with huge coverage. That edition was the really big one, in public interest (much bigger than the previous). Things where going well for sailing as a sport, and if the 2010 edition was on a continuing route (with bigger and faster, but affordable boats, as it was meant to be) I am quite sure the 2010 edition would have been a much bigger world's sport event (comparing with 2007).

To just give you an idea between the size and importance of the two editions, have a look at some numbers:

2007 edition: Organizing Budget - 230,000,000€
Economic Impact - 7,000,000,000€

2010 edition: Organizing Budget - 8,000,000€
Economic Impact - less than 700,000,000€

And it is important to say that 500,000,000 € where spent on the boats, and less than 200,000,000 on things to do with public interest.

If we take the Organizing Budget as a measure, *the last edition was 44 times smaller than the one from 2007* and you could feel that on the coverage and on the spot (Valencia).

*The 2007 edition had a 66,000,000 € profit (shared by the 12 teams). the 2010 edition had a huge deficit, a deficit of hundreds millions of euros.*

as professor Canon has said, the America's cup : *"From being one of the four or five biggest sports events, it's become frankly parochial."*

Americaâ€™s Cup Sinks as Bertarelli-Ellison Fight Sours Santander - Bloomberg

And sadly it seems that the 2013 edition is not going to be much better

And Andrews, I don't find this boring:

YouTube - Official Podcast of the 32nd America's Cup: Match day 7

Of course, the boats are "old shoes ", but if you changed those by moder fast monohulls or multihulls, bigger but affordable, we would have a great 2013 America's cup.

By the way, why to they insist in call it America's cup? Should not be America cup?

Regards

Paulo


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## BoxedUp

RichH said:


> The AC is becoming very 'sad' as the clear advantage automatically goes to those with the 'deepest pockets' and excludes those who cant afford the meteoric rising costs to 'play'.
> 
> This is not 'racing', it's 'bluffing with money'; bluffing with so much money that all the other competitors are forced to 'fold'. The name of the AC should be changed to "I Can Spend More Dough, Than You Can - Cup".


+1

Any competition where lawyers need to get involved takes a little wind out of the sails for me. Whatever happened to racing being a gentleman's sport?

It seems the AC has lost it's way and it's not the mettle of the crew that captures the cup but how technologically advanced the boat is. Might as well have armchair helmsman operating a joystick from a remote location.

I would like to see the AC get back to racing one design monohulls since it's what most of us can relate to.


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## BoxedUp

PCP said:


> By the way, why to they insist in call it America's cup? Should not be America cup?


The America's Cup was originally an 100-guinea silver trophy offered by the Royal Yacht Squadron to the winner of a race around the Isle of Wight on August 22, 1851. John Cox Stevens, a wealthy New Jersey real estate broker and founder of the New York Yacht Club, organized a syndicate of five other club members that commissioned William H. Brown in 1850 to construct a yacht "to race against the best the British had to offer." Following the design by George Steers, Brown finished America in 1851, in time for Stevens to accept an invitation from the Royal Yacht Squadron to enter its race around the Isle of Wight. Pitted against seventeen seasoned British boats, America started poorly but finished with a commanding lead and won the cup. In response to the win by America, the Spirit of the Times observed that "old England was no match for young America." *Stevens accepted the cup, naming it after his yacht*, and kept it on display at his Annandale, New Jersey estate. After his death in 1857, it became a trust of the New York Yacht Club "as a permanent challenge cup, open to competition by any organized yacht club of any foreign country."


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## PCP

Yes, I know that. The America that refers to America's Cup is a Cup named America, not a country. So it should be America's cup or America cup?


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## BoxedUp

PCP said:


> Yes, I know that. The America that refers to America's Cup is a Cup named America, not a country. So it should be America's cup or America cup?


It's the *boat* that is named America, not the cup...hence, it's America's Cup denoting that the cup belongs to the boat named America. If the boat was named Fred, it might have been called Fred's Cup, not Fred Cup...


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## AE28

BoxedUp said:


> It's the *boat* that is named America, not the cup...hence, it's America's Cup denoting that the cup belongs to the boat named America. If the boat was named Fred, it might have been called Fred's Cup, not Fred Cup...


Would the boat still be a "her" or a "she"?


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## BoxedUp

AE28 said:


> Would the boat still be a "her" or a "she"?


Fred...short for Frederica...


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## PCP

BoxedUp said:


> It's the *boat* that is named America, not the cup...hence, it's America's Cup denoting that the cup belongs to the boat named America. If the boat was named Fred, it might have been called Fred's Cup, not Fred Cup...


Hum, only half convinced:


BoxedUp said:


> The America's Cup was originally an 100-guinea silver trophy offered by the Royal Yacht Squadron to the winner of a race around the Isle of Wight on August 22, 1851. .. *Stevens accepted the cup, naming it after his yacht*,...."


If he named the Cup after his yacht, then the Cup is the Cup AMERICA. The yacht America is story, the Cup America is nor well but still exists. So if we are referring to a Cup called America it seems to me that it should be America cup

Regards

Paulo


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## tdw

Paulo,

I wasn't certain as to how much media attention the 2007 AC (A'sC ?) received world wide. It certainly didn't get much attention in Australia, perhaps only because there was no Australian boat. The last Australian challenge folded.... went down like an ice cold Fosters. 






If the original winner (John Stevens) named the cup after his boat then it should by rights simply be The Cup America but if his naming was a nod to his boat then yes it should be America's Cup. I suspect he would have intended the cup to be dedicated to the yacht America and so America's Cup would be correct.

Oh yes....just to be clear about it, I really like watching mono hull match racing, be it live or on TV. The multi hull thing is for me a one trick pony. I agree with you that the Cup should be fought between state of the art mono hulls. Quite frankly with much more of an emphasis on national identities.

That is, I fear, a cause that is well and truely lost. Which is sad.


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## BoxedUp

PCP said:


> If he named the Cup after his yacht, then the Cup is the Cup AMERICA. The yacht America is story, the Cup America is nor well but still exists. So if we are referring to a Cup called America it seems to me that it should be America cup
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,

No one ever said American English is an easy language.... should that be American's English or English American?..:laugher

Take an easy nautical word......port. In English, it can have three meanings:

1: "port" side of the boat
2: there are many ships in "port" today?
3: can I offer you a glass of "port"?

But we're going off topic.....we've got the cup back and life is good! I would rather see the next AC defended in Newport but it looks like SF will be the venue.


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## PCP

Guys,

Take a look at the AC72, the new AC boat. I like it. Take that rigid sail wing away and I believe that the cost will be acceptable.

Giornale Della Vela - VelaTV


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## blt2ski

I have to admit, I have not looked at the cup since the 12M went away!

Maybe they should use Farr 40's like the Candian cup?!?!? something done in the great lakes tween the US and Canada, might be some other country's involved too. Then it is easy(er) to get country teams together, teams of excellent racers that are not pro, that might be able to beat pro's on any given day too, keep it short, sweet........

Probably not in my life time again......

On the other hand, going with expensive boats as it currently is going, maybe the AC will have new tech to bring down to us lower land peons. Where as it seems like the new tech is coming from the different SH and crewed around the globe races, SH/DH boats in the 30' range of boats or mini transats for that matter. 

Then again, my opin and ramblings, does it count?!?!? who knows. In the meantime, I'll continue to listen to BIL complain about elleson upon occasion!

Marty


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## PCP

Other team out:The German will not participate on the 2013 AC.

"In an interview in the German magazine Yacht today, Michael Scheeren, boss of United Internet Team Germany was asked their reasons for pulling out of the 34th edition of the America's Cup.

In summary, despite a starting budget (20 million Euros) they pulled out for two main reasons: the considerable existing advantage of the Americans, and much too high costs. 
....
*Michael Scheeren's conclusion is that the teams that will take part in this 34th America's Cup are those backed by billionaires who can privately finance challenges, and that there will not be much in the way of sponsorship in addition to this*."

SailRaceWin: America's Cup: Team Germany's reasons for Withdrawing

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski

If too many teams drop out, frankly, the next cup, despite the intentions of the current cup holder, will end up about as boring as the last cup. At least i can watch on the puter in real time, during the day, vs 1-3am my time when it was in Europe!

A smaller length, still with a foil, would bring more teams etc to the field of play, which is what the cup needs right now. No different than the Vendee globe race, where the sail quantity went down from about 25 to 22 or there a bouts from memory among other cost cutting measures.

marty


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## yachtyakka

I still think a lot of you are missing the fundamental point about the cup. It's a yacht race 2nd and a tech race 1st. The mere fact that the boats are able to be changed is the life blood of the event. J Class, 12meters, IAAC, Deed of Gift boats. Please leave one design for the Olympics. The 2010 cup race of the DoG and Cat were all part of the rules been tested and those 2 races were an outstanding display of what the heart of the cup is about, technology gone wild, both yachts are now consigned to history and from that event looking forward, we have 45ft cats been built in Walkworth. 2013 will see 72 hard sail cats dialling down at speed, simply fantastic. The best place to watch it will be on the screen in front of you, the web.


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## RedtheBear

Just a thought.
For the "America Cup". Why not have a series of races of the many one design boats from all over the world. A committee would select say a half dozen different designs and that would be the racers of that year. Each design group would race as a class for several races with each boat accumulating a score both for the class and for the total cup score. The winner would be the country with the highest total score of all the races. New designs could be summited as long as the design could be supplied to all who desired to race them. Any country or group could purchase or build a boat as long as it fit the exact limits of the one design but each selected design would have to have boats entered from 75% of the total number of countries entered. That way we would get the advancments in technology. The "Extreme" designs of the Megabucks type would have little interest to most countries or groups faced with the cost of building or purchasing a craft that probably wouldn't make the number limit. 
With each class having a winner, "Little A Cups", could provide emphatess for further envolment by smaller counties while the national pride of winning The America Cup is still there. The winning of crews head to head on one design boats proves their mettle and skill. Crews from small clubs and groups as well as the large clubs would compete head to head on one design boats for the honor to compete representing their country. Now that would be a competition that would get grass roots attention. Boats just like down at the local marina. On cup week, several classes could be raced at the same time giving the media something to flip back and forth to so not to be "as interesting as watching paint dry". 
Like I said something to think about.


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## PCP

yachtyakka said:


> I still think a lot of you are missing the fundamental point about the cup. It's a yacht race 2nd and a tech race 1st. ... Please leave one design for the Olympics&#8230;..2013 will see 72 hard sail cats dialling down at speed, simply fantastic. ....


I partially agree with you. I would value both items at the same level (the sail race and the tech race). It would make no sense into making it a one design race.

But that is not the point. The point is that the budget and the conditions to raise race sponsorship should permit the participation of many boats from many different creative and innovative boat designer teams and also the participation of teams of all countries and the best world's sailors. The innovations should all go in a sense that develop sailing applications to the boat industry.

What happened and is still happening is that neither the format of the event, neither the type of boat (rigid sail) will permit the participations of teams that found that participation on sponsorship. Therefore it was and it will be a race for millionaires and that is not the best way to develop technology neither the Sport (sailing). The rigid sale is also a technology that will always be so expensive that its development will bring no advantages to the sailboat industry.

And that is what I mean. It will be a millionaire's race or bet, not a sports big international event and that's what America's cup should be, one of the BIG ONES and I don't mean only in what regards sailing, but globally.

To give you an idea, only the sail from BMW oracle cost about $10 millions (and he broke one) and the total cost (nobody knows what was the cost of the boat and its development) is estimated in something over $100 millions. To put that in perspective, the Big multihull (100ft) that has the record of the fastest circumnavigation (Gitana 11) cost about $5 million .

With the money it was spent on BMW Oracle, (that served no other purpose than to be raced once) you could buy the 9 ultimate class racing multihulls (about 100ft) and the 9 Open 60 that are racing in the Route du Rhum and those are among the most expensive and technologically more complex race boats anywhere.

Regards

Paulo


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## tdw

While I'd still like to see the AC in monos rather than multis what is most important, indeed absolutely vital. is that the AC must be fought in a uniquely AC boat. It is a developement class after all. To go out and do it in a an existing one design woul be fatal. IMHO.


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## blt2ski

Paulo,

The AC is not for millionaires any more, try BILLIONaires! only! 

The cost of the last boat is ridiculous as you say. There could be great races, with improvements to sailing etc, with boats in the 10-20Mill range ea. Heck, I am recalling the V70 boats having limits to keep more than less teams doing the race. 

I have not really watched it much since the 12M went away. The ACC boats were not bad either. but these new things. beyond what I am sure most of feel are affordable, much less, one race wonders! I'd luv to own one of the old 12M boats, not that i could afford one, but still..........

marty


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## PCP

The next edition of the America's cup is becoming more and more interesting :

"Alinghi, two times winner of the America's Cup, has today announced that it will not enter a team in the 34th edition of the prestigious sailing trophy ....

After a careful evaluation of the protocol and other initiatives taken by the American Defender and its Challenger of Record, Alinghi considers that the existing conditions make it impossible for the team to participate in the 34th America's Cup."
...

Two-times winner Alinghi will not compete at next America's Cup in 2013 - Telegraph

Sail-World.com : Alinghi exits the 34th America's Cup but stays with catamaran circuit
Regards

Paulo

PS. can one of the mods change the title of this thread for "2013 America's cup". It seems that I can't.


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## BoxedUp

Looks like Team USA is getting exactly what they want....to keep possession of the cup for the next 130 years, albeit they won't have a challenger.:laugher


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## PCP

PCP said:


> ..
> PS. can one of the mods change the title of this thread for "2013 America's cup". It seems that I can't.
> 
> Last edited by PCP : 1 Hour Ago at 05:14 PM. *Reason: Your wish is my command.*


      Thanks!


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## paulk

Maybe Alinghi pulled out because the budget restrictions mean they can't buy an advantage?


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## PCP

No, I don't think that what you say is the motive. I believe that the reason is the same that lead several other teams to retire:

As have already been said by a lot of more knowledgeable guys, simply there is no way to fund that event (the way it is proposed), and the costs of the participants on sponsorship and TV and internet revenues. This means that this is not going to be a professional sail event (meaning that it cannot be self-sustained), but another amateur billionaire second rate race.

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski

It is too bad that the cup will not be done with the 40' cats vs the 80'ish foot ones, the more teams could/would get involved. Make them all one design or as close to it as possible, not working with in a box rule. This would make it WAY WAY more interesting frankly. 

I do wish things would get back to the days of the 12M races. the boat had to be designed, built in, crew by the country(s) challenging. Otherwise, yes, it is a spoiled billionaire individual/company that once they get it, it is theirs to deal with, At least when it was at NYC for the 80-100 yrs, things did seem reasonably even the last many years. There did seem to be a time like today, ie J boat time frame, that it did boil down like today, the most exclusive person could afford to do the race. Until it gets back to something normal folks can connect with, it's not worth but noting in my book. I'd rather watch and see how the Volvo 70's are doing in the round the world races, sydney hobart, the figaroo solo races etc. These you seem to have what I would call real teams, where anything can go, they watch out for ea other, cheer ea other on etc. 

Marty


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## Omatako

A couple of things . . 

Let's face it, the AC is a technology race, it has been for decades. One of the more interesting parts of past campaigns has, for me, always been "What are they going to do to their boat to make it faster?" The anticipation of a boat on the hard with a skirt hiding the underwater bits was an important part of the event. Without that, well, we already have the world match racing champs which is raced in identical boats etc. Who needs another one of those?

But that said, the absence of a realistic financial cap that others can afford is simply the defender buying the next race and it will ultimately kill the AC because the cost is simply unaffordable for many of the best competitors. Whilst I'm not authorised to speak for Team New Zealand, the fact is simple: they cannot afford to compete. New Zealand as a country has a total population of 4m people, less than most large cities. If every man, woman and child contributed $25 we could just about afford the boat. In a country like the US, such a contribution would bring in about $7.7 billion.

So essentially the format that we see Coutts and his Crazy Cronies putting together is nothing more than an act of cowardice. It's the only way they can compete, by financially killing off the competition. It makes many New Zealanders ashamed to admit that Coutts is one.

And aside of being able to afford it, it is not financially viable. No sponsor simply donates money. There has to be a measurable payback. With the proposed AC format there is inadequate payback. It is no surprise then that organisations like ETNZ are looking at Volvo and Med Cup series. Here they can compete with their skill, not just their cheque book and they can retain their sponsorships by winning, not by having the 4th richest man in the world as a cash-flush benefactor.

But these are "just another yacht race" . . . . there will not be millions of people tuning in to watch them take place. They will never emulate the AC.

And so, off my soap box.


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## PCP

Omatako said:


> A couple of things . .
> 
> Let's face it, the AC is a technology race, it has been for decades. One of the more interesting parts of past campaigns has, for me, always been "What are they going to do to their boat to make it faster?" The anticipation of a boat on the hard with a skirt hiding the underwater bits was an important part of the event. Without that, well, we already have the world match racing champs which is raced in identical boats etc. Who needs another one of those?
> 
> But that said, the absence of a realistic financial cap that others can afford is simply the defender buying the next race and it will ultimately kill the AC because the cost is simply unaffordable for many of the best competitors. Whilst I'm not authorised to speak for Team New Zealand, the fact is simple: they cannot afford to compete. New Zealand as a country has a total population of 4m people, less than most large cities. If every man, woman and child contributed $25 we could just about afford the boat. In a country like the US, such a contribution would bring in about $7.7 billion.
> 
> So essentially the format that we see Coutts and his Crazy Cronies putting together is nothing more than an act of cowardice. It's the only way they can compete, by financially killing off the competition. It makes many New Zealanders ashamed to admit that Coutts is one.
> 
> And aside of being able to afford it, it is not financially viable. No sponsor simply donates money. There has to be a measurable payback. With the proposed AC format there is inadequate payback. It is no surprise then that organisations like ETNZ are looking at Volvo and Med Cup series. Here they can compete with their skill, not just their cheque book and they can retain their sponsorships by winning, not by having the 4th richest man in the world as a cash-flush benefactor.
> 
> But these are "just another yacht race" . . . . there will not be millions of people tuning in to watch them take place. They will never emulate the AC.
> 
> And so, off my soap box.


Well said.

It is a sad thing to see the AC going down after having managed to be one of the world's top sports events. The loss is for all the sailing community.

Regards

Paulo


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## sailwatcher

Is anybody familiar with either Rome or the Bay Area? If so, is there a preferable venue between the two? Apparently it's down to those two venues, and will be formally announced at the end of December.


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## PCP

Rome is only there for not letting alone S. Francisco. S. Francisco is the place and they know that for months. Rome is not a god place. Valencia, Cascais or Portimão would be the logical choices in Europe (best wind conditions and best weather, I mean sunshine ).

Regards

Paulo


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## Omatako

The venue won't need to be very big . . . . . . . only one boat, one umpire, one support vessel for the family of the crew, maybe a TV crew.

Why would anyone else turn up?


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## imagine2frolic

The boats need to arrive on their own bottoms. If so a lot of BS will be thrown out.........*i2f*


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## PCP

Is this for real?

.... "We'll take 60 days to size up the opportunity. But it makes a ton of sense and the economics are realistic.".... a Canada-wide challenge, to be put forth by the Royal Canadian Yacht Club at a cost of $30 million to $45 million,...

Reed said the Canadian group, including the Royal Vancouver Yacht Club and Royal Halifax Yacht Squadron, would put together a joint challenge, to be run out of the RCYC on Toronto Island and feature an all-Canadian crew.

Canadian sail team could challenge for America's Cup - thestar.com


Regards

Paulo


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## ferg

Sailing in complex boats that only one other team has had any experience in building and racing does not offer the level playing field that was promised. Its a technology race again. Team Origin has already stepped aside for this reason.


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## Omatako

PCP said:


> Is this for real?
> 
> Paulo


Something doesn't gel with the "$10 to $15m", for a number of reasons.

Teams were spending that 20 years ago. The monster tri that Ellison used allegedly cost near enough $100 just for the boat. That doesn't include salaries for 140 people (some of them in the millions per annum), accommodation, airfares, legal fees (someone will sue you), premises at the race venue, the list is long and costly.

And now it is suggested that like Grand Prix, the boats will be shipped (sorry, flown) from venue to venue around the world each month??? For $10m - $15m a year???? Yeah right.

And Ellison is going to jettison the $100m boat to make it easy on his competitors? Yeah RIGHT!!


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## PCP

Another one leaving America's Cup, this time it is BMW that leaves Oracle and the billionaire alone. Well, if it is for losing money and have no profit (in publicity returns), it seems that even the Defender will have trouble funding its campaign otherwise than on billionaire's money.

Regards

Paulo


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## sailwatcher

I thought the sailing in on your own botom was a rule from cups way back in the past. It's being reintroduced?

Also, concerning venue, there appear to be some problems with the SF bid. All of a sudden, the orginazers are talking to the Newport guys. Not sure how serious this is, or how viable that town is. I know it's about 30 mi. from Providence, which itself is within an hour of Boston, which has a big airport.

Any thoughts on all this?


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## kmp1284

sailwatcher said:


> I thought the sailing in on your own botom was a rule from cups way back in the past. It's being reintroduced?
> 
> Also, concerning venue, there appear to be some problems with the SF bid. All of a sudden, the orginazers are talking to the Newport guys. Not sure how serious this is, or how viable that town is.


Is that a joke? Newport is supremely viable.


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## sailwatcher

A joke?! I wasn't aware that their hosting the AC dates to as late as 1983. I also haven't ever been to RI, so I have no clue what Npt. is like, except for it being coastal.


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## mksailnet

ferg said:


> Sailing in complex boats that only one other team has had any experience in building and racing does not offer the level playing field that was promised. Its a technology race again...


Didn't Team Oracle develop, build, and race a trimaran? I thought the new AC boats are catamarans!

Hasn't sailing benefited from improved technology, developed for the AC, for years?

The AC has always been for millionaires and now billionaires--just the cost of living increase, I guess. The average Joe Schmoe was never going to be able to compete anyway; lets just sit back and hopefully see some exciting racing for a change!


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## JimMcGee

For me the New York Yacht Club Invitational Cup is more interesting to watch. There are amateur teams from different countries, and while the Swan 42's aren't a "technical showcase" I just don't feel like the America's Cup boats are relavant to the average sailor anymore.

YouTube - NYYC Invitational Web2

Saturday Highlights | New York Yacht Club Invitational Cup | Sailgroove


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## PCP

mksailnet said:


> ...
> 
> The AC has always been for millionaires and now billionaires--just the cost of living increase, I guess. The average Joe Schmoe was never going to be able to compete anyway; lets just sit back and hopefully see some exciting racing for a change!


No. The edition before the one with the billionaires gave a profit. That means the teams actually made a profit. You only needed to be good enough to compete and form a team. That's why there was so many (good) teams.

Regards

Paulo


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## mksailnet

JimMcGee said:


> For me the New York Yacht Club Invitational Cup is more interesting to watch. There are amateur teams from different countries, and while the Swan 42's aren't a "technical showcase" I just don't feel like the America's Cup boats are relavant to the average sailor anymore.


Jim,
I actually agree with you--that is a very interesting/exciting regatta to watch, with evenly matched boats. And having crewed a NYYC Class Swan 42 home from Bermuda, I can say these Swan 42s produce quite a bit of speed as well!

As with most things, though, it comes down to money. The AC isn't just being marketed to sailors! I don't think any major network is willing to expend the time, money and resources to show a regatta like the NYYC Invitational, nor do I think anyone other than "sailors" are really interested in watching it!

You could kind of compare it to the Indy 500--many non-race fans will watch it, but not watch the Indy car series at all. Same with sailboat racing--non-sailors could care less about the NYYC Invitational, but may very well watch some fast boats in the AC.

And consider...if members of the NYYC, many of them millionaires, didn't outlaw Nathaniel Herreshoff's catamaran Amaryllis in 1876 after getting soundly defeated, we might all be sailing fast boats!

I also believe it can cost a significant amount of money to successfully campaign a NYYC Swan 42--probably much more than the "average sailor" is willing or able to spend.


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## blt2ski

A NYYC 42 would probably be on par with a Farr 40 as far as yearly costs, depending upon the level of paid crew etc. I am recalling $250-500K for a yearly budget/target from the owners group. I could be wrong on this. 

Another race to look at that uses F40's is the canadian cup. Simaler style of race, but on one of the great lakes. The club that started it in Toronto?!?!? has made it such that it can not go to far away if ever, and have tried to keep it more "amatuer" in crew from a cost standpoint. Probably more in line with when the 12M was used in the AC in how it was ran at the time. 

The reality is, there are a number of races like the NYYC/canadian cup that are interesting.

Marty


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## PCP

First boat (45, not the real race boat), Ellison's one of course

I have to say that it is beautiful and sails like a dream

YouTube - AC45 Wing-Sailed Catamaran Under Sail in Auckland

YouTube - Trailer 34th America's Cup

YouTube - AC45 Splashdown!


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## PCP

Some hot news: one team gives up other joins in.

Mascalzone Latino a big team with a great sailing record is probably out:

Giornale Della Vela | Onorato pensa di ritirare Mascalzone Latino dalla Coppa America Vincenzo Onorato fondatore di Mascalzone Latino non smentisce e anzi a sorpresa confer

They cannot find the 80 millions needed to race.

Story | Mascalzone Latino

And a French time is in, The Energy team.

This one, if they can find the money for a good campaign (I don't believe they can) would be among the favorites:

Within a month of the official announcement last September that the America's Cup was to be raced aboard multihulls,the Peyron brothers announced that they wanted to bring French know-how together to set up a Challenge to attempt to win the prestigious trophy. That is exactly what they have now achieved.

Energy Team, the new French challenge set up around Bruno and Loïck Peyron, has been officially registered for the 34th America's Cup since 27th January 2011. It is the sixth Challenger aiming to grab the silver ewer.
.....

To fulfil this ambition, Energy Team has signed an exclusive partnership with Multiplast, the boatyard based in Vannes (Brittany), which is one of the international references in the world of multihull construction (Orange I and II, Groupama 3). The Multiplast yard will be reserved for Energy Team. The construction of the first AC72 catamaran will begin on 1st September with her launch planned for April 2012. Yann Penfornis, managing director of the yard, will be coordinating the AC 72 design and construction teams, under the supervision of Loïck Peyron".

34th America's Cup: Energy Team is sixth challenger

These are the guys:

*Loïck Peyron*, skipper of the AC45 and AC72: 6 times F60 world champion, 8 times F28 Trophy Champion winner,

*Bruno Peyron*: 8 times world ocean records champion, skipper of the G Class, which will be the ambassador for Energy Team,

*Yann Guichard*: helmsman with Loïck Peyron : Extreme 40 world number 2, Member of the French Olympic team,

*Thierry Fouchier*: performance team, the only Frenchman to have won the America's Cup with BMW Oracle Racing which he was the wing sail trimmer.

*Jean-Christophe Mourniac*: performance team, member of the French Olympic team, one of the world's top 5 Tornado and F18 racers over the past ten years.

*Yves Loday*: coach for young talent. Former member of the French Olympic team, he was Tornado gold medallist in Barcelona in 1992. He will be joining the team to prepare the "Youth America's Cup" that the American Defender islaunching.


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## PCP

It seems things look nicer in what regards America's cup

Another team in, an Australian one.

Australian Team to Contest 34th America's Cup in 2013, Race Organizers Say - Bloomberg

Two teams from France, a Swedish outfit and an Italian entrant are the other Louis Vuitton Cup contenders announced so far. Entries close March 31.

Australian Team to Contest 34th America's Cup in 2013, Race Organizers Say - Bloomberg


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## sailwatcher

Artemis apparently crashed very recently.

YouTube - First day Incident on the coach boat


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## PCP

The dates for the 2011-2012 AC world Series (45ft cats) were revealed. Not yet the places:

"The 2011-2012 AC World Series will be sailed in the AC45, the forerunner to the next generation of America's Cup boats. The boat was launched to great acclaim in New Zealand last month. Focused on creating more on-the-water excitement for both the teams and the fans, the AC45 wing-sailed catamaran was designed for both speed and close racing. While capable of closing speeds of up to 30 knots, the AC45 remains nimble enough to handle the tight, tactical race courses planned by America's Cup Race Management (ACRM).

The 2012-2013 season will be sailed in the larger and faster America's Cup boats, the AC72, and its champion will be crowned just prior to the start of the Louis Vuitton Cup (America's Cup Challenger Series) in July 2013. This AC World Series will also enable all teams seeking to compete in the America's Cup Finals in September 2013 to be race-ready for the AC72".

2011-2012 America's Cup World Series Schedule

Event One: 16 - 24 July

Event Two: 13 - 21 August

Event Three: 17 - 25 September

Event Four: 15 - 23 October

Event Five: 10 - 18 December

Event Six: 17 - 25 February, 2012

Event Seven: 14 - 22 April, 2012

Event Eight: 19 - 27 May, 2012

34th America's Cup: News: 2011-2012 America's Cup World Series Dates Released


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## PCP

Well they have changed the dates, the first race is going to be held between 6 and 14 August, and will be in Cascais, Portugal

Damm, I will be in Croatia

And things are coming together: Two more contenders, an Italian, Venezia team:

34th America's Cup: News: Venezia Challenge is an official challenger for the 
34th America's Cup

And a South Korean team:

34th America's Cup: News: Team Korea Enters 34th America's Cup

and I don't know if I had talked about the Chinese? They will also have a team

34th America's Cup: News: China Team to Contest the 34th America's Cup


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## sailwatcher

34th America's Cup: News: America's Cup World Series event to be held in San Diego

Extremely thrilled to see that San Diego will be visited during the ACWS. Loved having the RC 44s here. On to the multihulls!


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## imagine2frolic

sailwatcher said:


> I thought the sailing in on your own botom was a rule from cups way back in the past. It's being reintroduced?
> 
> Also, concerning venue, there appear to be some problems with the SF bid. All of a sudden, the orginazers are talking to the Newport guys. Not sure how serious this is, or how viable that town is. I know it's about 30 mi. from Providence, which itself is within an hour of Boston, which has a big airport.
> 
> Any thoughts on all this?


Not that I Know of, and it may have been a past rule. I forget where it came from, but it sure would cut out a lot of crap.........*i2f*


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## Classic30

It seems like AC45's are a wet way to race. Perhaps they should have stuck to monohulls:


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## PCP

Hartley18 said:


> It seems like AC45's are a wet way to race. Perhaps they should have stuck to monohulls:
> 
> ....


Well, sailors, I mean racers are pretty satisfied with the new boats and the rigid sail is having a lot of developments (even if I cannot see how it can be used for cruising).

The old mono-hulls were really not very interesting regarding contemporary design and they had a ridiculous upper limit in what was regarding wind force.

Curiously this apparently more fragile boats with their rigid sails can sail with a lot more wind and that's a step in the right direction.

Regards

Paulo


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## BoxedUp

Hartley18 said:


> It seems like AC45's are a wet way to race. Perhaps they should have stuck to monohulls:


I guess this disproves the theory that if flying one hull is fast, 2 would be faster...


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## PCP

For the ones that thought that the pre-start would be boring, look at these images

YouTube - Match Racing Pre-start action with ORACLE Racing and Artemis Racing


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## WanderingStar

Wild. I can't wait. And I thought the prestarts in the last match were fun.


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## PCP

WanderingStar said:


> Wild. I can't wait. And I thought the prestarts in the last match were fun.


I have to say that my doubts regarding this cup are becoming to run thin. Just look at these images . They have finally understood that people see the cup on tv and that success has to do with spectacular tv images. Well I would say that they are on the right course

YouTube - America's Cup test sessions wrap


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## WanderingStar

As a traditional boat cruiser, I couldn't be farther from a hi tech racing multihull. But I find these boats strangely beautiful and fascinating. I watched the last match online.


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## PCP

A bomb in the America's cup: The Challenger pulled out of America's cup. Only have happened once. Macalzone latino says he cannot raise the needed money to be competitive.

Hum? Maybe my doubts about the cost were not unfounded after all . We will see when they start to built the real boats, the big ones.

The new Challenger will be the Swiss team, Artemis. After all the swiss will be the Challengers . They have passed from Defender to Challenger as it seemed natural to me. Pity it is not Allinghy 

Regards

Paulo


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## mksailnet

PCP said:


> A bomb in the America's cup...cannot raise the needed money to be competitive.
> 
> Hum? Maybe my doubts about the cost were not unfounded after all . We will see when they start to built the real boats, the big ones...
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,

Somehow I just can't imagine mounting the campaign and building the America's Cup Catamarans, which can be demounted and easily shipped and has a smaller number of crew, can be any more expensive than building and campaigning the two boats per team usually produced when competing in the International America's Cup Class (IACC) boats!

Perhaps the learning curve is proving to be too steep for them to climb!

Cheering for the catamarans and some fast, exciting sailing,
Marshall


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## PCP

mksailnet said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Somehow I just can't imagine mounting the campaign and building the America's Cup Catamarans, which can be demounted and easily shipped and has a smaller number of crew, can be any more expensive than building and campaigning the two boats per team usually produced when competing in the International America's Cup Class (IACC) boats!
> 
> Perhaps the learning curve is proving to be too steep for them to climb!
> 
> Cheering for the catamarans and some fast, exciting sailing,
> Marshall


Marshall,

Not disputing the Cats fast and exiting racing. They have already showed us that the races are going to be hot and spectacular, if the boats are even.

Not even sure about if the money needed to implement the big boats is viable from the commercial point of view (if the sponsorship can cover it).

My first doubts were raised when Allinghy pulled out saying that was not commercially viable. Those doubts were calmed with the number of teams going in. Let's see if they can resist the cost of building and racing the big boat. I hope they do

I still think that a major problem regarding the commercial viability has to do with the very weak interest Americans have for sailing and the fact that the Cup is going to be raced in the States.

Regarding that weak interest, look at this forum, it is a sailing forum, people here should be much more interested in sail racing than the average American. I have posted about an American team winning a round of the world's main professional crew racing championship, the Audi Med cup...and I got almost no views and only a reply

That's what I am afraid off, lack of interest, and without that interest there will be no millionaire Sponsorship and without that the teams would not have the money to be competitive. That would give an huge advantage to the Defender that will be paying from his own pocket. That's what I am affraid off

Regards

Paulo


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## mksailnet

PCP said:


> Marshall,
> 
> Not disputing the Cats fast and exiting racing. They have already showed us that the races are going to be hot and spectacular, if the boats are even...
> 
> Not even sure about if the money needed to implement the big boats is viable from the commercial point of view (if the sponsorship can cover it)...
> 
> Regarding that weak interest, look at this forum, it is a sailing forum, people here should be much more interested in sail racing than the average American...That's what I am afraid off, lack of interest..
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,

The sailing/racing analogy might be a weak one. While I have an interest in following sailboat racing, I am more interested in cruising. Given the high profile professional sports in the US, I don't ever see sailboat racing gaining the popularity sailboat racing has in Europe. Soccer (football) still hasn't and probably will never, except for "events" like the World Cup, or David Beckham's first game.

Most Americans drive cars, but are not interested in auto racing. However, the Indianapolis 500 and Daytona 500 are considered "events" and do very well.

I think the action and speed attained by holding America's Cup in catamarans might be the "event" to get many Americans to follow sailboat racing, if only once every few years. I think it will be very commercially viable to the media.

Marshall


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## PCP

I hope so We will see if its going to be like that...or a flop. Anyway it is risky for any investor (sponsor). It is betting on the unknown instead of investing in a warranted success. 

Regards

Paulo


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## mksailnet

PCP said:


> I hope so ...
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Paulo,

I hope so too--I hope it is a rousing success for the sport in general, and for sailboat racing in the US as well!

Marshall


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## PCP

Great images. They had some time but I had not seem them and they were not posted here. Enjoy

YouTube - ‪America's Cup‬‏


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## PCP

Beautiful and in Hi-Res. Enjoy

YouTube - ‪High Five!‬‏

And not so beautiful

YouTube - ‪Capsize‬‏


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## Slayer

Wow...awesome videos. Thanks.


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## jlevac

The videos have been awesome!


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## smackdaddy

For the goofball naysayers who claimed NOTHING would come out of the AC34 technology for the broader sailing market. You were obviously wrong:






And how about them hands?


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## Minnewaska

Can't say I really know what has come of it. The wing has been around a long time now. No way I would want one, even for coastal cruising, unless there is a way to douse it that I'm not aware of.

Still, its sort of carnaval-like interesting to see it on a cruiser.


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## PCP

Nothing new about wing sails:

A French Trimaran Has Inflatable Sails - NYTimes.com

but certainly the AC coupe has bring it to the world's attention.

I don't know well the technology but there are ways to reef it. Beneteau are not the only ones making experiences with it. The research is huge:





Omer wing sail

OneSails Sailmakers - The Next Generation of Sails











Advanced Wing Systems

Soft Wing Sails for Classe Mini 6.50 » minitransat650.com

Rotatable Telescopic Wingsail :: Create the Future Design Contest

http://users.soe.ucsc.edu/~elkaim/Documents/PerfCAMS07.pdf

Inflatable WingSail


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## Multihullgirl

There was, back in the 1980s, the solid-wing 18 Square Meter catamaran "Wild Turkey". C-class cats have had solid wings for quite some time


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## PCP

Yes I know but it seems to me that in what regards cruising the future lies on soft wings, the ones that can be easily reffed and are not so expensive. I will make a post about it soon on the interesting sailboat thread.


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