# Any way to check keel bolts?



## mrhoneydew (May 1, 2008)

i have a '69 Columbia 28 and I am a little concerned about the keel bolts. When I hauled out last April there was no separation of the keel from the hull or signs of it, but the tops of the bolts in the bilge look fairly rusted and pitted. I don't dare touch them to tighten them down. I am considering an extended trip and would rather not have the keel fall off in transit. The hull is fiberglass and the keel is lead. Is the only way to know what the bolts look like to pull one? Is that even possible? Or can I simply (ha!) drill down and sister in a few bolts for added security and call it good?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

No, you can't sister in more bolts. 

On some, you can remove a bolt or two and plate from inside the boat and inspect. Perhaps it will tell you what they are all like, but it's no guarantee. You could do them all one at a time too. Major, major PITA.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Boat that old.... drop it! There is a way to use lag bolts in lead. Catalina owners have a kit available just for that. I'd still want to know how bad/good they are


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## mrhoneydew (May 1, 2008)

Shoot. Of COURSE there is no easy way out.  I guess it's a question of how secure do I feel in just leaving them be vs. tackling a major PITA project? I would definitely prefer not to have to drop the keel. Maybe when I haul out this Spring I'll have a crack at seeing if I can get one out from inside to inspect it. That should give at least some indication of whether a real problem is probable or not.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Most people only raise the boat up a couple inches while the keel stays put. The big issue is getting the nuts broke loose! (Ya might break "them" too)


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

it is possible to remove old j-bolts but you need to cut a tapered hole(bigger on the inside) and set new j-bolts in fresh casting of lead but it is a lot of hassle and mess pouring new lead into a keel .... word of caution when working with molten lead all surfaces must be clean and dry or it will erupt in a mini volcano of lead
do some research on lead casting or have it done profesionally


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## mrhoneydew (May 1, 2008)

Well, I have a lot of work to do already and will be on the hard for a bit... I'm just not too awfully keen to open up yet another can of worms. But... then again... I will already be out of the water so maybe it makes sense to just address the situation rather than worry about it all summer. Or until the keel falls off.  It seems like a much better winter haulout project though. I suppose I have a couple of months to think about it. And, you know, when I get in and tick item after item off of my to-do list at a rapid pace I may just have a bunch of extra time on my hands for other projects before I splash again...:laugher


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

I've always used a 20# sledge and a 2 X 4. Have someone hold the 2 X 4 alongside the keel below the joint to the hull. Have someone else hit it with the sledge. You lay your palm across the joint. If there is any movement you have a problem. Don't be shy, give it a couple of good whacks, but don't miss the wood. If the keel bolts can't take that, then you've got a problem anyway. Simple and absolutely foolproof.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

capta said:


> Simple and absolutely foolproof.


 good thing there are a lot of fools in here to test that theory


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

white74 said:


> good thing there are a lot of fools in here to test that theory


Been doing it that way for more than 40 years and I'd guess the old guy that taught me was doing it that way just as long. If your boat can't take that, you probably shouldn't take it out of the slip.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

mrhoneydew said:


> And, you know, when I get in and tick item after item off of my to-do list at a rapid pace I may just have a bunch of extra time on my hands for other projects before I splash again...:laugher


Rapid Pace, extra time or working on a boat, which is it?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

5/8" x 1.5" deep hole saw (starett) over the bolt without a drill bit, should be able to saw down through the nut. Other sizes available too. Just thinking here!


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

capta said:


> Been doing it that way for more than 40 years and I'd guess the old guy that taught me was doing it that way just as long. If your boat can't take that, you probably shouldn't take it out of the slip.


The classic necessary vs. sufficient debate: I don't think anyone would debate that passing your sledgehammer test is necessary to be seaworthy. The question is whether it's sufficient. Maybe you and the other old guy were just lucky for 80 years. Do you have any proof that passing this test assures healthy keel bolts?


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

deniseO30 said:


> 5/8" x 1.5" deep hole saw (starett) over the bolt without a drill bit, should be able to saw down through the nut. Other sizes available too. Just thinking here!


many keels have steel backing plates ... not sure if the 69 columbia's have


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

Slugging with a hammer does not seem like a very precise way to test bolts. Surely if the keel moves then something is wrong. But if no movement is detected does that mean everything is okay? I wouldn't think so.

The way I would test bolts is as follows:

Remove one nut. If that breaks the nut or bolt you have a problem.

Clean the nut and exposed threads. Measure the size. Lube the threads with heavy grease.

Look up the suggested torque for a bolt of the size measured. It makes a difference if it is plain steel or stainless.

Replace and tighten to the specified torque. If something breaks you have a problem.

Repeat for each bolt one at a time.

Given that the boat is very old, and the bolts suspect, and the usual over design, one might limit the torque to some lesser force. Maybe half.

I've been wondering about my own keel bolts. But a few weeks ago I flew off the top of a square breaking wave and landed hard on the beam ends several meters below. The keel stayed on. So maybe that is good enough.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

hold on here guys

look!!!!!!!!!!!

know your boat, how its designed and go from there

who said keel bolts cant be sistered in? interesting...

who said you cant tighten keel bolts? beyond weird

who said you have to drop a keel always? man!

seriously

how is your boat built, how is the keel attached?

what metallurgy? what backing plate...what bolt design? j, straight, cast what

seriously advice is only advice if its pertinent to the design of the boat in question

I dont know the columbia 28 well however if you give me some time GOOGLE FOO will come up with some pertinent answers RELATED TO YOU BOAT honey doo

no offense to the previous posters


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## norahs arc (Jan 23, 2013)

Just wondering, has anyone heard FIRST HAND - not a "they say" or "I know someone", who has had a keel fall away. I have seen some boats that have hit solid objects HARD and the keels are still there. (Been around boats more years than I like to count)


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

Not to belabor the point, but yes keels do fall off. A bit of Google Foo came up with this very sad story:
CHEEKI RAFIKI: Hull Found Again, Post Mortem

http://www.wavetrain.net/news-a-views/190-charter-boat-loses-keel-and-no-one-noticed


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

norahs arc said:


> Just wondering, has anyone heard FIRST HAND - not a "they say" or "I know someone", who has had a keel fall away....


There are plenty of them out there.

Keep Your Keel On | Sail Magazine

CHARTER BOAT LOSES KEEL: And No One Noticed


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

The 2x4 I have. Now to find a 20# sledge. 

I haven't performed that test yet. My haul out contractor tests my keel bolts every time we set the boat on his trailer. From falling between the keel support beams to just banging into something. I repair the fairing every season. My keel bolts look badly rusted where they are exposed in the bilge. I haven't felt safe putting a wrench on them but..... There is almost no sign of a seam anywhere at the hull keel joint, so the keel isn't working loose. I am counting on signs of failure showing up well before a catastrophic failure.

What do you think? The 20# Whack Test should be sustainable by any keel! The Brownell Trailer Drop Test is another way of monitoring the condition of your hull keel joint. Ha!

In a discussion about grounding in another thread, I gathered it would take quite an event to suddenly remove the keel. Since the boat is floating the vectors distribute impact fairly well. Perhaps intentionally bumping the keel into something "soft" like wood when you have options would help with your decision.

Dropping the keel, shipping it off to have new bolts installed and resetting it will cost serious dollars. It sure would provide some valuable peace of mind.

I am still watching for signs of separation. The Islander 28 has a good reputation. Some boats have chronic keel problems.

I think you can "sister" your bolts. Drill down to insert new bolt. Outside, drill in from the side to place a nut and washer directly in line with the bolt hole. Insert new threaded bolt from above, thread it into the nut and tighten her up from above. Fill the hole in the side of the keel with an epoxy paste made with the lead shavings you collect when drilling. Make sure the bolt is set in something like 5200.

Don't forget a survival suit! 

Down


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

The corrosion that happens to the keel bolts is hidden in the hull between the nuts and the keel. The only way to inspect this to drop the keel. Period.
Jim


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

TakeFive said:


> The classic necessary vs. sufficient debate: I don't think anyone would debate that passing your sledgehammer test is necessary to be seaworthy. The question is whether it's sufficient. Maybe you and the other old guy were just lucky for 80 years. Do you have any proof that passing this test assures healthy keel bolts?


I certainly can't speak for the old guy who taught me, but I've never had any feedback after this test, on dozens of boats, that any keel bolts failed in a reasonable amount of time. It's kind of hard to prove a negative, but on my old gaffer, we sailed her through the South Seas for 5.5 years, including 3 capsizes in a cyclone (at 65 years old) and the keel didn't fall off or separate from the hull. This was something I did at every haul out on her.
Not to say we never found bad bolts which then had to be repaired. Perhaps we ever broke some weak ones? But it satisfied me, as a good test.


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> thats if your keel bolts are SET in the keel like a j bolt...
> 
> some boats you can take 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 out unscrew at a time even in the water and inspect as so
> 
> ...


Were you sistering by tapping the new bolts into the lead?


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

mrhoneydew said:


> i have a '69 Columbia 28 and I am a little concerned about the keel bolts. When I hauled out last April there was no separation of the keel from the hull or signs of it, but the tops of the bolts in the bilge look fairly rusted and pitted. I don't dare touch them to tighten them down. I am considering an extended trip and would rather not have the keel fall off in transit. The hull is fiberglass and the keel is lead. Is the only way to know what the bolts look like to pull one? Is that even possible? Or can I simply (ha!) drill down and sister in a few bolts for added security and call it good?


I haven't read all the replies but... wow...

If you are concerned about the keel, and if the seam seems to be getting wider, PULL THE BOLTS. It's not rocket science, and it can be done while the boat is floating. Pull one bolt at a time. The nuts and bolts should have clean threads. You can polish the nuts and bolts up while they are apart with a brass wire brush. Pulling and re-torquing ONE at a time while you are on a mooring, or in your slip should not be an issue.

If you find that any bolt either doesn't want to budge, or even if it snaps off, then you KNOW that it is time to have the keel bolts addressed.

I know from whence I speak, as I have been through this. This was my keel in 2010;








and here is the condition at that time of some of the bolts that were installed in 1987;

























Finally, sistering a lag screw through the stub into the keel will only serve to weaken the keel stub, and let water in the boat faster.








You will likely be lagging into filler (my keel used foam). With all due respect, this is a dumb idea.

Read this thread if you want to learn more (my story begins at post #35).


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

How nice it is to have a long-keeled boat, with the keel cast in to the GRP. No keel bolts.

I am loathe to do any test that involves beating keel bolts with a hammer then pronouncing them sound for future service. Does not sound right to me. Presumably those necked bolts pictured above would have passed then?

I wonder.
.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

There are tradeoffs involved with every aspect of vessel design. I would bet that my fin keel turns quicker, and is far easier to back than an encapsulated full keel. Regarding maintenance, I simply pull, clean and inspect my keel bolts every other year.

I'm not very keen on the sledge hammer test either...

BTW - This is what my keel bolts looked like from the bilge prior to being replaced in 2010;


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

honey doo which keel version do you have?

http://www.columbia-yachts.com/col28/col28diagEarly.jpg

http://www.columbia-yachts.com/col28/col28diagLate.jpg

69 should be late keel version

have you verified you have the swept aft keel?

this version would need stringer keel bolts and reinforcement than the stubby shoal draft version

do you know what backing plate and or washer nut plates you have in the bilge?

excerpt from that site related TO YOUR BOAT(SORRY FOR THE RANT)

*Like many older fin keel boats, some C-28 owners have had to replace corroded keel bolts. Here is some info on the bolts for this boat from a manual dated January 1972.

There are seven keel bolts. These are lag bolts installed from the top. (3/4" DIA X 9" LG LAG STUD. DRILL .656" DIA X 5" DEEP USING C-28 KEEL ATTACHMENT JIG FOR POSITIONING HOLES. USE LAG END OF STUD AS TAP TO THREAD KEEL. APPLY KEROSENE TO HOLE AND STUD DURING TAPPING OPERATION. USE CAM-TYPE STUD DRIVER. LEAVE 4" MIN. OF STUD PROTRUDING FROM TOP OF KEEL. - 7 REQUIRED.)

Also concerning the nuts: 3/4" NC HEX NUT & 3/4" ID X 2" OD PLAIN WASHER - HOT DIP GALV STEEL DRILL 13/16" DIA THRU HULL USING SAME KEEL ATTACMENT JIG FOR POSITIONING HOLES AS IS USED TO DRILL KEEL. (SEE DETAIL) - 7 PLACES*


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

if you have a 69 c28 you should have 7 keel bolts

can you verify this?


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

christian.hess said:


> honey doo which keel version do you have?
> 
> http://www.columbia-yachts.com/col28/col28diagEarly.jpg
> 
> ...


sound advice i would also suggest you contact Doug Ward or Jim Muri over at the columbia site for more information specific to your boat


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

I don't have a dog in this fight, so I really don't care what you do, and this will be my last post in this thread. I shared my experience, and showed pictures of my keel only as an example of the (admittedly expensive) accepted best practice to repair keel bolts. My free advice was to clean and inspect what you have before you set out on an extended cruise.

Christian is right in that I don't know the specifics of the Columbia 28 construction. If pulling the nut or bolt from one any one keel fastener may or will cause damage, then I would be very concerned, as there would seem little redundancy in the design. I'll leave it to mrhoneydew and Christian to decide if their boats are ready for an extended trip, and to deal with the consequences. 

I based my earlier posts on my first hand experience with the lead keels from 1980s vintage Pearson, Cal, O'day (keels built and repaired by I Broomfield & Sons in RI) and CS (keels built and repaired by Mars Keel). I also have first hand experience with several 30+ foot Ericsons and Catalinas, a Lippincot 30, and several 2000+ model Hunters, and their basic design is essentially the same. All of these boats use J bolts, which are embedded in the keel. The threaded end of the bolt protrudes through the top of the keel and goes through a section of the keel stub a backing plate and a washer, and is then held in place by one or two appropriately sized nuts.

Mars Keel has a great website on Keel repair here; Keel Bolt Replacement | MarsKeel. I encourage anyone reading this to check out the Mars Keel site, as the pictures and the whitepaper (which addresses both lead and cast iron keels) explain the process in detail. Broomfield does not have a website, but they have described their process to me in an email;


> When replacing keel bolts, we melt the lead around the bolt, remove the old
> bolt (which is usually 304 SS), and replace it with a new bolt (316SS). The
> lead is replaced and the keel is faired and painted around the area. [price info redacted...]
> Depending upon the time of year, the number of
> ...


I also have had first hand experience with the way in which Beneteau uses hex head bolts and lock washers, which are bolted through a backing plate and the stub into a tapped hole into their cast iron keels. The Beneteau method looks to be similar to the method that is pointed to in Christian's post.

Keel bolts become a problem with all of the keels with which I am familiar, when water is allowed to stagnate in the bilge. This leads to crevice corrosion in and around the nuts and bolts. This is exacerbated in boats which are subject to freezing temperatures, as any water can crack the surrounding casting be it iron or lead. From the OP, I assumed that this may have been the case.

On my boat, this water intrusion happened through the keel / stub joint. 
This is what that joint looked like;








Water intrusion in the joint pictured above led to the corrosion pictured in my earlier post between the nut and J bolt.

I stand by my assertion that if there is water ingress, sistering in another bolt without dropping the keel is a dumb thing to do. While sistering MAY buy you some time, if you do not stop the water intrusion, the sistered bolt will fail in the same manner as the original bolt did. Sistered bolts, and the casting around them, will still be subject to the force exerted by freezing water. Finally, the original bolts will continue to deteriorate, and this, in turn, will let in more water.

Quoting from the link that Christian posted;


> What I did was to hire a guy who claimed to be a specialist and I had him add 15 new keel bolts


..and the picture;








Photo credit - Pierre-Alain Segurel / Phileas Fogg​That's some great lookin' rust that those new bolts are set into...

By placing fifteen *additional* holes in the stub, it will be weakened. A keel stub with seven holes, placed where they were _designed_ to be, will be stronger than a stub with eight to twenty two  (7 original + 15 new) holes. I believe that this should be intuitive... If this works for you, that's great! I, however, would not buy a fin keeled boat that had a bilge with 22 keel bolts in it.

Mrhoneydew has received a lot of free advice in this thread. Once again, *my *free advice is that mrhoneydew read this thread http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/43505-wet-bilge-more-than-just-nuisance.html, and remove one keel bolt at a time (or the nuts on one bolt), clean the nut and/or bolt, and inspect, but only if it is safe to do so. Please remember that free advice is sometimes not worth what you pay for it.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

[EDIT]
If you want any more free advice from me, please PM me, as I am unsubscribing.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

My understanding is that these people build and repair all manner of keels:
All Lead Keels | MarsKeel Technology

I agree that there may be hidden corrosion in the hidden area under the bilge.
However, something that no one has suggested that may be of use:

Use a nut splitter to destroy and remove the nut without damaging the bolt. Clean up the bolt threads and install a new nut and washer.

The question for the OP is: How good is "good enough"?
Only he can decide how much risk he's willing to accept.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

norahs arc said:


> Just wondering, has anyone heard FIRST HAND - not a "they say" or "I know someone", who has had a keel fall away. I have seen some boats that have hit solid objects HARD and the keels are still there. (Been around boats more years than I like to count)


The keel came off my Folkboat. She had been in the water and mostly okay. I hauled her to do a bunch of work. After she was out a while, the travelift picked up her bow to reset the chocks. The keel stayed on the blocking and the boat came up. They had corroded from 3/4" diameter down to around 1/8" to 1/4" in twenty five years.

A Pearson 26 lost its keel here on the Chesapeake about 10 years ago. Everyone was okay.

It happens.

Eherily is right. Sistering the bolts is a bad idea. The sump will be turned into a Swiss cheese. The only real way to tell what is going on is to drop the keel. Its really not that hard to do.

Boats of that era with lead keels typically did not have J-bolts which became popular around 1970 onward. They typically were built like wooden boats where there was a 'nut pocket' in the lead. Basically the bolt was smooth rod threaded on both ends. The bolt was slid into the bolt hole and a nut was put on the bottom and the bolt end peened over. Then a nut was put on the threads on the top and torqued down, hand tight plus a quarter turn with a breaker bar.

Frankly, Columbias of that era were not all that well built. Keel bolts of that era were typically galvanized mild steel. If it were me and I were making a long passage in a nearly 50 year old Columbia I would drop the keel and inspect those bolts carefully. I would also pull the chain plates as well.

Jeff


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> Frankly, Columbias of that era were not all that well built. Keel bolts of that era were typically galvanized mild steel. If it were me and I were making a long passage in a nearly 50 year old Columbia I would drop the keel and inspect those bolts carefully. I would also pull the chain plates as well.
> 
> Jeff


I think the question of quality of build is off base 
as a previous owner of an early 70's columbia ... they were built like tanks
i still think the OP should refer this question to the columbia owners group for an informed opinion instead of all this speculating
Bill


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

well Im unsubscribing too

man its hard sometimes to offer any sort of advice or help without being called out on it these days

I simply linked what is a common fix on my model boat

the boat in question the columbia 28 needs pertinent fixes for it, not whatever works on an irwin, islander or damn beneteau

yeah advice is free just like those "pros" on here

without any dissrespect eherlihy you come across as belittling those that have equal and or more experience in these things than you have...

thats not belittling your keel dropping as its the right thing to do...however not everything is black and white

I said this from my first post

keels and keel bolts arent the same on boats across the board

so like white74 is saying and I have from the get go

try to get in contact with a columbia 28 owner hopefully your same year and keel model. and get real pertinent info and hopeful fixes

fwiw the columbias ARE BATTLESHIPS now the "modern" keel 28, I have no personal experience with but I cruised and raced on my dads challenger, and have been on some 29s and seen other columbias in person from 5.5s to 34s etc...

what they lack in finishing, trim and interrior beauty they more than make up for it with some of the strongest and thickets and in some cases beatiful hulls out there



peace

merry christmas to all


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I am sorry that you have chosen to take umbrage with my description of the mid-1960's era Columbias, as "Columbias of that era were not all that well built. Keel bolts of that era were typically galvanized mild steel."

By the same token I strongly disagree with the idea that a mid 1960's era Columbias were "built like tanks" or "are battleships". Perhaps if I explain the basis of my comments a reader of this thread can reach their own conclusions. And I will keep my comments to the 1960's era Columbias since the 1970's era Columbias varied widely in quality and were several bankruptcies, and buy-outs later than the boats in question.

My first in depth contact with mid-1960's era Columbias came in the late 1960's when I was worked in a boat yard in Port Washington off Long Island Sound. That yard maintained a number of rental fleets of rental sail boats. While many of these rental boats were wooden A.R. True Rockets, there were also fleets of Pearsons (Ensigns and Commanders) and Columbias (Columbia 22's and Contenders). There was also a few Cal 25's in one of those fleets. The man that ran that yard used to use these boats to teach us younger folks about good and bad building practices as he was giving us assignments. As one of the smaller people in that yard I was the one to crawl into the tight spaces to install hardware and such and saw the corners of the boat that most folks never see.

The yard owner was quick to point to such dubious items on the Columbias (vs. the other similar sized boats like the Pearsons and the Cals) such skip tabbing used on Columbias (discontinuous tabbing rather than continuous multiple layer tabbing that was the norm in the industry) or the use of non-marine plywood for interior components (Pearson did that too), or the comparatively flexible hull panels in the bow, or the use of self-tapping screws to attach deck hardware.

In that job, I personally removed most of the cleats from a Columbia 22, drilled out the holes and re-installed the hardware with bolts, washers and backing plates. In that same job, I had the job of filling and grinding one of the keel bolt nut pockets on a new Columbia which had come from the factory without filler. I saw the deck coupon that was drilled out when we installed a ventilator in an engine compartment.

Later in life, when I lived in Georgia in the late 1970's, I had the use of a Columbia 22 for a number of years in exchange for maintaining the boat. I did a lot of work on that boat, but one of the jobs that I did was to clean up the rusting galvanized steel nuts, washers and keel bolts with a wire brush and phosphoric acid, primed them with zinc chromate and painted them to retard the rust. I personally say the resin rich laminate and bits of delamination in the coupon from a depth sounder transducer that I installed on that boat.

More recently, there was a roughly 12-15 year old insurance industry study of older boats. (I have mentioned this study before. It used to be available online) This scientific study looked at an issue that had become prevalent in the marine insurance industry. Older boats were found to be sustaining greater impact damage than should have been expected from the impact. The study looked at panels removed from actual older boats and compared their strength to the strengths which should have been anticipated based on calculations and similar testing of newly created replica panels.

In that study, Columbia was frequently cited as the poster child for bad building practices. Columbia was a pioneer early implementer of many of the worst practices of that era. Columbia tended to use larger percentages of non-directional fabrics to bulk up their laminate than was typical in the industry. Non-directional fabrics while required to some extent to bridge between roving lay-ups, was a cheap way to build thickness but it came at the price of poor impact resistance, lower flexural strength, and a greater tendency towards fatigue.

Columbia was notorious for using large amounts of accelerators. The laminating resins of the the 1960's were formulated to be comparatively slow setting to allow a greater working time for the lay-up crews. But that came at the price that these slower cure resins could take quite a few weeks to reach an adequate strength to allow the moldings to be safely removed from the molds. The better builders of that era would allow the hulls to remain in the molds for comparatively long periods of time (months or more)to properly cure. Accelerators allowed the resin to achieve a reasonable strength a lot sooner so that the molds could be reused with a greater frequency. The downside of using accelerators is that they produced a more brittle and fatigue prone laminate.

Columbia pioneered the use of 'shoe box' hull to deck joints, which have been long understood to be a structurally inferior way to join a hull to the deck and which has proven to be somewhat problematic over time.

Which brings us back to the keel bolts on the Columbia 28. I must admit that I was speculating based on my experience with other Columbia's of that era. I apologize that I was partially mistaken about the keel bolts on the Columbia 28. I was able to find a detailed description of the keel bolts on the Columbia 28 here on the internet. Columbia 28 Specifications.

On that page the describe the repairing the keel bolts this way, 
"Like many older fin keel boats, some C-28 owners have had to replace corroded keel bolts. Here is some info on the bolts for this boat from a manual dated January 1972.
There are seven keel bolts. These are lag bolts installed from the top. (3/4" dia x 9" long lag stud. Drill .656" dia x 5" deep using c-28 keel attachment jig for positioning holes. Use lag end of stud as tap to thread keel. Apply kerosene to hole and stud during tapping operation. Use cam-type stud driver. Leave 4" min. Of stud protruding from top of keel. - 7 required.)
Also concerning the nuts: 3/4" NC hex nut & 3/4" i.d. x 2" o.d. plain washer - hot dip galv steel drill 13/16" dia thru hull using same keel attacment jig for positioning holes as is used to drill keel. (see detail) - 7 places"

Which brings me back to my original point, we are talking about 48 year old galvanized steel, lag type keel bolts. The only reliable way to inspect them is to drop the keel (or technically lift the boat off its keel). I have done this on a Kirby 25. Its just not that hard to do. The good news is that lag type keel bolts are not all that hard to replace, and it is something that can be DIY kind of repair (at least compared to the J-bolts or the through bolts used on some Columbia keels). The bad news is that lag type keel bolts are not as strong as J bolts or through bolts and represents another case of Columbia using a shoddy construction technique, especially for back then.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Why can't he sister in new bolts? Most keels have enough meat in them to do that. Not that it is necessarily the way to go.

Could drop the keel to inspect what's there. The risk is, he will have to go forward with a full keel bolt, time and money.

Xrays don't like lead, ultrasound, not so sharp, no good way to take a look inside. Coupla rolls of duct tape around the keel and hull ought to do the trick.

Or, call Mars Metal up in Canada, ask them if there's an experienced local yard they've dealt with. MM are the pros about making, modifying, remaking keels. In the worst case, you drop the old keel, sell it for scrap, and Mars will sell you a nice shiny new one, complete with new bolts.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Sistering would not be a good option. Its hard to know how carefully the keel on this boat was engineered but there is a standard for how closely spaced keel bolts can be spaced based on bolt thickness and glass thickness and bmost fin keeled boats leave the factory with their keel bolts about as close together as is recommended for their bolt diameters and glass thickness. Frankly it should not be all that hard to lift the boat off its keel, inspect the bolts, back out any bad lags and replace them again. These bolts only have 5" inbedment.


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> No, you can't sister in more bolts.


Why can't you sister more bolts?

My first boat was a 1977, Catalina 30 I bought in 1994. When looking to buy it, the marina owner/broker who was showing it to me showed me where extra bolts had been sistered in. Looked well done and If I recall, my surveyor made a positive comment on the job.
I sold the boat in 1998 and it is still sitting in a slip in our marina. To the best of my knowledge, the keel hasn't fallen off yet.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

chuck53 said:


> Why can't you sister more bolts?
> 
> My first boat was a 1977, Catalina 30 I bought in 1994. When looking to buy it, the marina owner/broker who was showing it to me showed me where extra bolts had been sistered in. Looked well done and If I recall, my surveyor made a positive comment on the job.
> I sold the boat in 1998 and it is still sitting in a slip in our marina. To the best of my knowledge, the keel hasn't fallen off yet.


I have to comment here:

both the catalina 27(more common upgrade) and 30 offer sister bolt kits DIRECT from catalina

this is why I had a huge venting post when somebody mentioned sistering isnt possible or reccomended which as we all should know is bs.

now im really out

peace


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## dsmauney (Feb 29, 2000)

For stainless threads with stainless nuts as shown be EHerilhy and shown for this J bolt configuration on this site and others show the location of the bolt corrosion is under the nuts not down in the keel floor. This matches the metallurgy of crevice corrosion with possibly some fretting corrosion. I am a Met for what it is worth. The same occurred on my keel of this same configuration but the lost metal was under the lock nut on top of the keel nut. So you can inspect with the boat on the hard removing and retorquing the nuts.

Good Winds
DaveM


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## rbyham (Dec 25, 2012)

This being a part of the vast lack of knowledge that I have about sailboats, let me ask the question. Is there anything that an owner can do to maintain or extend the life of his keel bolts?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Keep the bilge dry and clean - or buy a boat with an encapsulated keel.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

rbyham said:


> This being a part of the vast lack of knowledge that I have about sailboats, let me ask the question. Is there anything that an owner can do to maintain or extend the life of his keel bolts?


Keep them absolutely dry. Especially of salt water which due to the chlorides is much more corrosive to steel.

If they are already wet it is probably too late to do anything external. If you don't know the condition and suspect corrosion the keel must be dropped and everything sealed up properly. Make sure there is no seawater coming in thru the hull joint. Keep the bilge dry. Rinse out saltwater with fresh. The nuts and washers should be sealed with something. I heard Loctite Marine Anti-seize was the way to go. 3M 5200 for the hull joint is probably a good choice. [Info from a J-Boats tech bulletin]

Seems impossible to keep my bilge dry because the considerable rainwater that comes down inside the mast. I'm pondering a solution. Either a separate pan under the mast step, or some kind of sump cut into the bilge, or raising the nuts up a bit on spacers. If inspection ever shows damaged bolts I'm sending the keel to MarsKeel for new Duplex Stainless bolts.


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## dsmauney (Feb 29, 2000)

Since with dripping stuffing box and rainwater I find it impossible to keep bilge dry. On the hard I remove keel nuts one at a time, clean threads with stainless wire brush, inspect, coat bolt threads with anti seize or Lanocote, retorque nuts and finally coat (encapsulate) bolt top, nuts, bilge washers down to glass around washers with thickened epoxy (west 610 easy to use). Next haul out, couple of years chip off epoxy with screw driver and hammer and do it all over again.

Good Winds
DaveM


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Guys, the only way to check the keel bolts without dropping the keel:
*Torque Wrench and 30wt. oil on the threads*.

If the spec. torque applied breaks the bolt ... guess what? The bolt need to be replaced.

If the spec. torque applied doesnt break the bolt ... youre probably good for another year/season.

Even if you drop the keel to check the bolts, still use the torque wrench (and oil) before you drop that keel. The 'numbers' will tell you if those bolts have sufficient remaining 'strength'.

*MAXIMUM* torque values 
(torquing to *80%* of the max. value is a good and reasonable 'go, no go'): http://www.fastenal.com/content/feds/pdf/Torque of Stainless Steel, Non ferrous Torque.pdf


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

mitiempo said:


> Keep the bilge dry and clean - or buy a boat with an encapsulated keel.


Like mine!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Is there anything that an owner can do to maintain or extend the life of his keel bolts? "
rb, is that a loaded question? (G)

Move to Scottsdale, AZ. remove mast, invert hull, bolts will stay clean and dry.

Otherwise, you try to keep the bilge dry, which may mean one small pump with a small-diameter hose to keep out the trickles, backed up by a primary bilge pump, since the primary never sucks it all dry. And ventilation, not just a covered bilge. 

Everyone says you can't seal keel bolts, but "proper" sealing of all sorts of things is possible. If they're clean and dry to start with, I can't see any reason why some heavy coats of zinc paint sealed under a heavy wax (traditionally tar) coat wouldn't keep them waterproof and dry. We keep water out of submarines and inside spacecraft, sealing a couple of dumb bolts shouldn't be unfeasible in any way.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> Everyone says you can't seal keel bolts, but "proper" sealing of all sorts of things is possible. If they're clean and dry to start with, I can't see any reason why some heavy coats of zinc paint sealed under a heavy wax (traditionally tar) coat wouldn't keep them waterproof and dry.


The problem is that if the sealing isn't perfect any moisture that gets in will promote crevice corrosion.

Better to keep them bare and clean and inspect regularly I think.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

back in ancient times they used tar .....


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

hellosailor said:


> "Is there anything that an owner can do to maintain or extend the life of his keel bolts? "
> rb, is that a loaded question? (G)
> 
> Move to Scottsdale, AZ. remove mast, invert hull, bolts will stay clean and dry.
> ...


Zinc chromate based primer is the better way .... then put a thick multiple coating of Boeshield™, etc. over them. 
You'll have to rotary 'bronze wire brush' the threads every time you want to regularly re-check proper torque.

You all do have a torque wrench with which you re-torque your engine head bolting, etc. every year, dont you?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"The problem is that if the sealing isn't perfect "
Heck, you can rot out a windowsill or a porch column in a home the same way. ANY sealing can become a way of trapping moisture if it is done improperly. Doing it properly, ain't rocket science.
Afraid to seal it? OK, keep some tinned sardines aboard the boat and have them for lunch every once in a while. Pour the excess olive oil around the bilge bolts, that'll do the same thing.

Wrought iron fence posts used to last hundreds of years, because they were set into molten lead bases. When folks started doing things the modern way and setting them in concrete footings like new fences...they started rusting out very quickly, because concrete is always water-soaked and lead isn't.

Ain't rocket science! You just have to know more about the materials involved than "I can buy that at the store".

The same way that you can clean and seal battery terminals and cables, and if you do it properly? No, you _never _get a green and black corroded mess giving you battery problems. the trick is, doing it right the first time. Or at least learning to do it better the next time.

Boeshield, sardine oil...it is not impossible to keep water out of a mechanical assembly. It is much easier to ignore the problem and dump the boat before it becomes your problem.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

I too wonder about our keel bolts. We have stainless bolts. They aren't original to the boat. The PO made a bunch of improvements and I'd guess that's who put them in. They are above the deepest part of the bilge, but they still get wet. And I worry a bit about crevice corrosion on the bolts them selves. Would it be good to cover them in grease or something, or because they are stainless, better to leave them alone so they can breath?

We also get some bubbling of rust around the washers. Not very much, a simple wipe with a damp cloth every couple years removes it.

I designed and installed "mast rain water catchers" that catch the rain water coming from the mast. A tube on each one of them goes to the lower bilge area so the bolts around the mast stay relatively dry.

FWIW, Beneteau says to remove one bolt at a time to inspect them. On the hard or at a mooring doesn't matter. It's just a bit difficult to remove them. I bought a 50mm wrench, and after it was delivered discovered there's no room to use it. I guess people are using a giant socket set.

Regards,
Brad


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Brad, you have to consider that Beneteau doesn't really use "keel bolts" at all in the conventional meaning of the term. A conventional keel bolt is still a long "J" rod extending into the keel casting, threaded at the top, and then attached to the hull with nuts spun onto the keel bolts.

Beneteau...what they use should probably be called "keel studs" or "keel stud bolts" since they are, comparably, very short fat studs or bolts that are _screwed into _the iron keel. I leave it to the mechanical engineers to figure out a proper and different name for them. And I give Beneteau credit, for an iron keel they have some advantages, like easy replacement with no haulout necessary.

If Beneteau had had the sense to get some fancy trademark name for their attachment...that could be a much bigger point in their favor, instead of getting folks all confused about things like why Beneteau owners have so casually changed out their "keel widgets".

Or has that style of attachment been used before by others as quietly, too?

Although I still can't ever help but wonder, how master faster any particular Beneteau would sail, with a slimmer proper _lead _keel on it.(G)


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> Brad, you have to consider that Beneteau doesn't really use "keel bolts" at all in the conventional meaning of the term. A conventional keel bolt is still a long "J" rod extending into the keel casting, threaded at the top, and then attached to the hull with nuts spun onto the keel bolts.
> 
> Beneteau...what they use should probably be called "keel studs" or "keel stud bolts" since they are, comparably, very short fat studs or bolts that are _screwed into _the iron keel. I leave it to the mechanical engineers to figure out a proper and different name for them. And I give Beneteau credit, for an iron keel they have some advantages, like easy replacement with no haulout necessary.
> 
> ...


Good write-up. I figure that they are really THE keel bolts. Everything else is threaded bars and nuts, right?

Now that I finally figured out how to easily address any rust on the outside of the keel and re-seal it, I don't mind the iron keel.

I do wonder about the little bit of rust bubbling up around the keel bolt washer every couple years. You just have to keep the bolts completely dry.

Regards,
Brad


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

Bene505 said:


> Good write-up. I figure that they are really THE keel bolts. Everything else is threaded bars and nuts, right?


Off subject ... those are not bolts at all. A bolt, by definition, is a threaded fastener *secured with a nut*. Beneteau sounds like they are using screws. This is a common confusion.

*Screw* is a more general term for most any threaded fastener that includes bolts, lag screws and such.

*J-Bolts* would be true bolts (and screws too) because it is fastened with a nut. The head is the bent end.

Use of iron keels in cheap boats has always seemed, well, cheap. The price difference is maybe 60 cents per pound ... 2 or 3 thousand dollars. The performance difference is significant.

Almost useless information.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Iron keels are not used because it is cheap. they are used because you can cast a very strong structural keel with a long thin fin with a large bulb or wing on the bottom where you want the most weight. many very high performance race boats have a cast iron keel strut with a lead bulb on the bottom. you could not do this with fiberglass or lead alone. 
what ever you want to call the keel Studs does not matter but the fact that you can remove the Bolt/ stud and inspect the section of the bolt that goes through the hull structure. Removing them one at a time makes this type superior to the J bolts that are used in most lead keels. J bolts can only be inspected by removing the entire keel and the replacement is far more expensive.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Brad-
I'd suggest that a dry keel bolt (widget, whatever) is not a _protected _keel widget. If it is made of something that likes to rust, then galvanizing paint, tar, oil, Boeshield...take your pick, it should be well coated with something, and then it will never rust.

Gotta disagree with overbored about the choice of iron keels as being a structurally better way to go. Better? Hell no, just CHEAPER. It is way cheaper to tap some threads into a block of iron, than it is to engineer a proper structural frame (if needed) inside a proper lead keel. "Proper" because a lead keel will pretty much always allow the boat to carry more weight, lower down, with a thinner profile that generates less drag.

The keel isn't there as a parking aid, it is a hydrodynamic lifting surface, a WING that has an optimal profile, usually a NACA foil shape, as well as a ballast component.

Iron keels may be a very economical alternative, but I'd really like to hear from any one designer who would say "If I had an unlimited budget and didn't have to work with accountants, I'd always prefer an iron keel."

Hell no, even lead is a compromise, because the denser metals all make lead seem dirt cheap.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> Which brings us back to the keel bolts on the Columbia 28. I must admit that I was speculating based on my experience with other Columbia's of that era. I apologize that I was partially mistaken about the keel bolts on the Columbia 28. I was able to find a detailed description of the keel bolts on the Columbia 28 here on the internet. Columbia 28 Specifications.
> 
> On that page the describe the repairing the keel bolts this way,
> "Like many older fin keel boats, some C-28 owners have had to replace corroded keel bolts. Here is some info on the bolts for this boat from a manual dated January 1972.
> ...


Well since they are just lag screws, would it not make sense to just replace them? Of course you should replace the bedding compound at the same time, but if the question is simply are the bolts good you could just take them out one at a time, and replace them in situ? If they are original galvanized lags I doubt they would come out in one piece, so only attempt to do this if you are ready to hull the boat out. Then you know there condition, now if you don't replace the bedding compound they will not likely last long, but at least you know where you are starting from.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

hellosailor said:


> Brad-
> I'd suggest that a dry keel bolt (widget, whatever) is not a _protected _keel widget. If it is made of something that likes to rust, then galvanizing paint, tar, oil, Boeshield...take your pick, it should be well coated with something, and then it will never rust...


Is this true even for stainless steel widget-bolts? I though stainless had to breathe?

Regards,
Brad


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

Bene505 said:


> Is this true even for stainless steel widget-bolts? I though stainless had to breathe?


I agree. I prefer to protect with the gooey stuff: Greases, lanolins, anti-seize, etc. I think they breathe enough to prevent corrosion. Or perhaps they are completely waterproof.

Paint is not so good. It eventually cracks and leaks. It hides any corrosion. Hard to inspect. Hard to clean.

I think what ruins SS is not so much as moisture but a quantity of stagnant trapped water. Nuts can hold a good bit of water in the unloaded half of each thread.

3M 5200 works well until the bond fails. Then it is very bad.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

No, AFAIK stainless doesn't have to breath if you exclude the water. You get crevice corrosion in an anoxic damp environment, but you can't have that if you keep the steel dry.

Paul-
I suspect that replacing lag bolts would chew up the lead in the holes, resulting in less lead, less grip, than the originals. And even epoxy-filling could be dubious since it might just be bonding to lead oxide, not bonding 100% to the lead. Drilling all new holes & sistering the existing bolts has to be more reliable.

But I wouldn't call the original design shoddy, after all, it did work.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Tar is a ROYAL PITA to apply and even much worse to remove. Often forms air pockets during application which make for incomplete protection. When you replace the keel bolts and nuts, cover them with military grade Cosmoline. I have not seen a better salt water sealant yet. Very easy to apply, and relatively easy to remove. Expensive, but worth every penny. Accept no substitutes. Cosmoline - World's Best Rust Preventative! - Buy Direct & Save!


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## downeast450 (Jan 16, 2008)

I would like to find out if, Islander / Tradewind Yachts, the builder of my 1976 I-28, used J bolts or studs in the lead keel?

Anyone have any idea?

Down


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Bene505 said:


> Is this true even for stainless steel widget-bolts? I though stainless had to breathe?
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


On a boat there's not much one can do about the need for 300 series stainless steel to be 'breathable'.

Crevice corrosion is a 'wetted' phenomenon of rusting in 300 series stainless. If the micro-surface of the 300 series stainless steel is FLAT and highly polished - mechanical mirror polished then 'electro polished' to a surface roughness of 5 or less micro-inches - it will not form 'rust' when in contact with aqueous solutions. Obviously screw and bolt threads, welding anomalies and laps, pin holes, undercuts, mill finish scars, fine sanding gouges, etc. are 'wetness traps' and become 'de-oxyginated' and therefore cannot fulfill the requirement of 'flat' and 'smooth'.
Further, 300 series stainless is easily subject to fatigue cracking from cyclically applied stress - the separation of the microscopic 'grains' (teeny islands of dissimilar metal characteristics) and if these micro-cracks become wetted, crevice corrosion chemically penetrates into these micro-cracks reducing the effective load carrying ability - a two phase simultaneous destruction by fatigue AND chemical crevice corrosion. With 300 series stainless these fatigue micro-cracks can be formed when the _new_ metal is 'formed/rolled'. 
Waxes, goos, oils, etc. are intended to keep the micro-cracks and surface roughness 'filled' and water free; but do nothing as regards 'fatigue'. 
For fatigue - 300 series stainless has an (important) 'fatigue endurance limit' of 1 million load cycles at above approx. 30% of ultimate tensile strength - about 30,000 psi max. design for the material - even that the UTS is ~90,000 psi). In boat terms, that's about 1 circumnavigation .. and is probably why 'blue water' boats are designed with a 'safety factor' of 3 or more ... or about 50% better than a 'coastal design' with an inbuilt safety factor of only 2. 
(Think of this when considering the functional life time of your keel bolts. In a coastal design with a SF of 2, statistically youre only going to sail half way around the globe before your keel falls off and chainplates break ... at a _statistical_ 'maximum'.).

For 'critically important' structure in such wetted conditions its really better in the 'long run' to use monel or other high strength, wet-resistant and less fatigue prone materials. The reason 300 series stainless is used (as chainplates, rigging components, keel bolts, etc.) is because its relatively cheap and MUCH easier to 'machine'. 
On a boat, consider any cyclical stress bearing 300 series stainless component to be - 'a disposable'. If your keel is 'studded' with 300 series stainless (or steel) bolts / studs ... at the end of the (fatigue and crevices corrosion) service life, youve got a problem. Now you can appreciate why Beneteau, etc. uses replaceable 'bolts' in that keel, etc.

;-)


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

downeast450 said:


> I would like to find out if, Islander / Tradewind Yachts, the builder of my 1976 I-28, used J bolts or studs in the lead keel?
> 
> Anyone have any idea?
> 
> Down


just like my 36 j bolts you have nuts you can take off and or torque when the keel is on the ground

do not attempt to torque them in the water

cheers


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## mrhoneydew (May 1, 2008)

Hi Everybody. Hope you had an enjoyable New Year's!

So, with reference to Christian's question... I do have seven keel bolts and it is the later swept-back model keel.

I think I am going to to end up pulling the keel this spring. I am sure that after 46 years of service, galvanized steel lags are about due (assuming they have not been replaced by a previous owner). And just by the look of them, they have seen better days. Just for peace of mind alone it's worth it, I think. I guess in starting the thread I was kind of hoping someone would have some bit of advice that would prevent me from having to go to the time and expense... even if in my heart of hearts I knew this wouldn't be the case. C'est la vie! Just add it to the ever-growing haulout list, I guess.

And thank you everyone for all of your thoughts on this. Sometimes it's just good to have a sounding board even when we probably already know what we need to do.

Fair Winds in 2015!


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

mrhoneydew said:


> Hi Everybody. Hope you had an enjoyable New Year's!
> 
> So, with reference to Christian's question... I do have seven keel bolts and it is the later swept-back model keel.
> 
> ...


Very wise choice! I'm sure you can lift the boat a few inches above the cradle if it's in one. stands may make it a bit more difficult but I think it can be done. without keel weight they are easy to lift. You may need to tie off the mast to keep her from toppling


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

The I28 uses conventional J-bolts, and a fairly robust amount of them compared to many other boats. "Built like a tank" applies to _much _of the boat.

To the OP, if you're going to drop the keel, consider cleaning out the joint and rebidding it with 3M 5200, which is said to be strong enough to hold the keel attached forever after, even without keel bolts, once it cures. That can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on whether you ever want to remove the keel again.(G)


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## mrhoneydew (May 1, 2008)

deniseO30 said:


> Very wise choice! I'm sure you can lift the boat a few inches above the cradle if it's in one. stands may make it a bit more difficult but I think it can be done. without keep weight they are easy to lift. You may need to tie off the mast to keep her from toppling


Well... I'm not in a cradle, but the yard where I haul out in Pt. Townsend, WA is good and the yard workers know what they are doing. Plus if the thing falls over, it's their liability.  I'll talk to them about blocking and let them know I intend to remove the nuts from the keel bolts and have them come back to lift the boat up from the keel. I am sure it will be a process, but it will be the best thing in the long run. Not to mention add to my ability to sell the boat later on.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

christian.hess said:


> ...torque when the keel is on the ground...do not attempt to torque them in the water


Why, and why not?

The way I figure it is that the bolts are under approximately the same load whether the boat is afloat, hanging in straps, or resting on shoring blocks.

Here I have a 3500kg lead keel with 10 J-bolts. Each bolt is supporting about 350kg hanging in straps, a little less in the water because of displacement, and zero when on shoring blocks. The stress on the bolt due to torque on the nut alone will be from 1000 to 5000kg, or more. The bolt itself, when new, is rated at around 10,000kg, 3 times the keel's weight. The static load from the mass of the lead keel is not really significant. And, both the bolt and the structure are elastic so as the load increases on the bolt it stretches and the hull structure deforms, squishes. Both these effects ease the stress on the bolt from the torque preload at close to the same amount as the sailing loads.

This is the similar way preload on shrouds works. The preload on a shroud does not increase the load the shroud is subject to while sailing. And I suppose head bolts on an engine which are often preloaded to close to their yield stress. The additional load stretches the head bolt which subtracts from the preload at the same rate stress is added by the dynamic load.

That is my understanding. On the other hand, it would be a pity if one removed the last good whole bolt while in the water.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"MOST all sailboat keel bolt designs are over bolted...by law they are made strong"

Slow down there, champ. Welcome to America, where Congress repealed that _law _nearly fifty years ago, didn't they?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

honeydoo I liked this pictorial describing the importance of fairing both sides of the keel hull joint seem so when you glue back together there is a tighter and stronger bond...

Keel saga, for those contemplating this procedure for your boat...

the homemade release compound is of utmost importance

oh here is a COLUMBIA 22 keel drop and rebed(very similar design to yours honeydoo)

http://columbia22.blogspot.com/

good luck


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

christian.hess said:


> not getting it? you saying most boats are under bolted or specd? not if were talking about 60s, 70s, even some 80s boats...
> 
> if thats what you mean


While I don't intend to speak for Hellosailor, but from my perspective what I think HelloSailor is saying is that there aren't any governmental laws governing keel bolt sizing, at least not in the U.S. There are some standards world wide, but even those leave a lot of discretion to the designer in terms of safety factors and whether the loads are calculated statically or dynamically.

In my lifetime, the dynamically induced design loads used for the purposes of engineering boats have increased tremendously from what they were before the spate of studies that resulted from the Fastnet Disaster, and later the research used to establish the CE Directive.

So, when you talk about production boats from the 1960's, 1970's and into the early 1980's, they are generally under engineered based on what we now know about the dynamic loads experienced by boats in extreme conditions. What keeps these boats from having more frequent failures is that many of these older boat have never been sailed in extreme conditions and have had comparatively easy lives with not all that many hours underway. But these failures do happen.

But beyond the fact that these boats were under engineered by modern standards, the materials being used were often inferior to what is used today, and they have been subjected to a lifetime of fatigue and corrosion further reducing the strength of the materials from their original installed strength.

Jeff


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

christian.hess said:


> who in their right mind today would put steel bolts and epoxy them and call it good?
> 
> yet its cheap, and will last more than the owner of said boat will keep the boat probably...


Decades likely. There is absolutely nothing wrong with steel bolts. Yes they will rust but they have none of the crevice corrosion issues stainless has. They corrode predictably. They are stronger as well. Many boats have has steel keel bolts over the years without issues.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Think I want to put keel bolts in my lead core just so I can be part of this discussion going on; to 10 pages!


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

aloof;2471521
That is my understanding. On the other hand said:


> A pity you say. Whatever do you mean?


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## bricka (Nov 4, 2014)

christian.hess said:


> however that doesnt mean go sailing at a 40 degree heel and test it


Catalina Direct gives similar advice with the bolt retrofit kit, where they say "Don't expect to add this kit to your boat, then sail it to the Bahamas!". My C27 has sister bolts so I have been wanting to ask about this very point.

More specifically, what are the conditions that one might encounter on a "sail to the Bahamas" that are to be avoided in this case?

I only day sail 0-10 miles off the coast and the most extreme conditions I was out in last year were maybe 20 knot gusts and 4 ft seas - and only once or twice each and not necessarily together. I don't have an inclinometer, so I am only guessing I have had her heeled up to about 30 degrees. But I really dont know for sure.

My goal for this year is to be able to get out in more challenging conditions (or at least more frequently) as my experience increases, while still day sailing 0-10 miles off the coast. But am I already pushing it considering the possible degraded state of my keel, or are the conditions I described less than what you (Christian) and Catalina Direct are talking about? Where is the line I need to be concerned about?

While agreeing that it all depends, and I certainly have further inspection and testing to do on the keel joint before launch, might there be a rule of thumb for conditions to be avoided in a 27' sailboat that required sister bolts to be installed?


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

mitiempo said:


> Decades likely. There is absolutely nothing wrong with steel bolts. Yes they will rust but they have none of the crevice corrosion issues stainless has. They corrode predictably. They are stronger as well. Many boats have has steel keel bolts over the years without issues.


THAT IS MY POINT MAN

yet people say there is only one way to do things right, like 316l ss or nothing, or bornze or nothing


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

here ya go! LOL https://www.plasticnutsandbolts.com/materialsz.html

yawn...


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

bricka said:


> Catalina Direct gives similar advice with the bolt retrofit kit, where they say "Don't expect to add this kit to your boat, then sail it to the Bahamas!". My C27 has sister bolts so I have been wanting to ask about this very point.
> 
> More specifically, what are the conditions that one might encounter on a "sail to the Bahamas" that are to be avoided in this case?
> 
> ...


While I am speculating on why Catalina Direct would caution against a trip to the Bahamas after sistering the keel bolts, my sense is that sistering the keel bolts in a very lightly built, minimally engineered boat like a Catalina puts too many holes in the keel stub, greatly weakening the keel stub beyond what would be considered a reasonable safety standard for a prolonged offshore passage or other hard use.. A trip to the Bahamas involved crossing the Gulf Stream which can often be a very rough slog in the straights of Florida. Catalina Dierct may be concerned with the cyclical loadings created by that slog, which would be the equivalent to the number of hard cyclical loads that a keel might experience in many years of normal coastal sailing.

While I strongly disagree with sistering keel bolts when they are only lag screws to begin with, and when it is generally very easy to lift the boat off the keel remove the old bolts, and install new ones extending deeper into the ballast, I do agree that properly galvanized low carbon steel lag bolts may be an appropriate material for replacing keel bolts in an older boat since the service life of those bolts are likely to be as long as the remaining life of the boat.

Jeff


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

We have a winner! Jeff, take your choice of any plush toy from the top shelf, you hit the nail on the head.

Honestly, Christian, what kind of _bolt laws_ were you imagining? Even the fascist states don't have bolt laws.

In the 60's and early 70's, before the EPA banned the poisoning of accountants and MBAs, things were often built as designers or engineers wanted them, along the lines of "that oughta hold it". But by the mid-70's a new hybrid of engineers and accountants became popular and everything became "We can get rid of them and raise profits". Applied to everything in the US from the tv Nooze (which became profitable entertainment Nooze and no longer journalism, which had always been purely a loss) to consumer electronics (no really, if we don't build that filter in, 99% of our customers will never see any interference), the auto industry (inferior "new car" tires that wear out quickly and grip poorly)...and yes, keel bolts. "We don't need that many boats, no one is taking this boat around the world."

Costs became high enough, especially with the luxury tax (10%) and the price of resins and petrolchemicals, that everything got a fine-toothed comb run over it. And as a result, MOST mass-market stuff today is very much "built to a price". Including boats.

Laws? No laws needed. Until cheaping out kills enough outspoken people, and then regulations get passed. But so far not on keel bolts, because not a lot of keel fall off in _normal _use.


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## bricka (Nov 4, 2014)

Yes, thank you Jeff for your helpful answer. 

After reading your reply I googled gulf stream passage and the common denominator in every article was the potential for frequent steep waves caused by north winds across the current from the south. I see your point that these conditions mean excessive vertical loads on the keel joint for extend periods. It doesn't sound fun.

Now I am wondering - what is more stressful on the keel joint: the excessive vertical forces described above, or excessive heeling?


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

bricka said:


> Now I am wondering - what is more stressful on the keel joint: the excessive vertical forces described above, or excessive heeling?


Speculating here - not vertical forces. They are only the mass of the keel and some inertia coming off a wave. Heeling over past 45 degree is going to put huge forces on the bolts. If there are two rows of bolts then half the bolts may not even be stressed while the other half are stress far beyond the static load. For example, if you were a giant being trying to break the keel off with your hands, would you pull on it or wrench it to the side.

A hard grounding on rock or coral must be way up there in stress.

What I did about a month ago must be a good test as well. Came off the back of a steep tall wave, nearly airborne, and landed nearly on the beam ends (did I write this earlier...hmmm...senior moment). Current against wind and seas, just like the Gulf Stream.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

bricka said:


> Now I am wondering - what is more stressful on the keel joint: the excessive vertical forces described above, or excessive heeling?


As a total assembly in (a 's-l-o-w' dynamic event) such as heeling, etc. the 'max'. load at the keel 'joint' will occur when the keel is parallel to the surface of the water. The 'designer' will typically calculate and build for 45° of heel and then add safety factors on top of those values 1.5 inshore / 2.0 coastal / 3++ offshore.

With respect to 'keel bolts', the answer is NEITHER !!!! 
The function of keel bolts is only/solely to provide the needed compression between the keel and its mating surface on the hull. The compression provides the necessary friction of the two 'faces' from 'moving' apart or slipping 'out of line' with one another, including when that 'joint' is subject to an "unanticipated/unforseen" severe 'dynamic' loading (impact and momentum). Structurally, the keel is 'held' to the boat solely by friction generated by the sole purpose of those keel bolts - to provide the compression which 'drives' the mating surfaces together.

FWIW - Any stress analyst, when they see a 'keel smile' ... it tells them that 'something' has moved and the keel studs/bolts are NO LONGER providing that vitally important/critical compression of the OEM design, such as: the keel bolts have 'stress relieved' themselves, they've stretched (elongated), etc. or the mating surfaces have 'distorted', such as the fiberglass has 'plasticly' deformed, etc. etc. (Fiberglass is NOT a true 'solid' ... it behaves exactly like a 'thick' LIQUID - a 'plastic' - as if long term pressure is applied against it, it will CHANGE dimensions - a definition of 'creep'). 
***A keel smile to a forensic stress analyst would be an indicator to the onset of FUNCTIONAL failure***. 
I will state again, the easiest way to monitor the 'condition' of those keel studs/bolts and the whole keel joint 'structural system' is with a TORQUE WRENCH ... and that person is also tracking those 'numbers' over time to see if there are any 'changes'; changes are early warning signs of an impending functional failure.
BTW/FWIW - the absolute worst thing one can do is 'hang' a side-load on a bolt, as thats NOT what 'bolts' were designed to do - IMO.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

christian.hess said:


> ...just futile crap


The OP's question was very well answered before you entered the debate with a rant in post #16. Since then the thread has wandered around as they do, which is not a crime. Some of it has been interesting and informative.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I unsubscribed this thread. "thread tools" up in the page header


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jeff_H said:


> While I don't intend to speak for Hellosailor, but from my perspective what I think HelloSailor is saying is that there aren't any governmental laws governing keel bolt sizing, at least not in the U.S. There are some standards world wide, but even those leave a lot of discretion to the designer in terms of safety factors and whether the loads are calculated statically or dynamically.
> 
> In my lifetime, the dynamically induced design loads used for the purposes of engineering boats have increased tremendously from what they were before the spate of studies that resulted from the Fastnet Disaster, and later the research used to establish the CE Directive.
> 
> ...


Interesting POV Jeff. I never heard of a keel falling off prior to Drum in the earlyish 80's. In the past 15 years or so it has become almost epidemic - on contemporary boats.

I still never hear about them falling off under-engineered older boats.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

hellosailor said:


> In the 60's and early 70's, before the EPA banned the poisoning of accountants and MBAs, things were often built as designers or engineers wanted them


So THAT'S what happened - I always wondered.  Explains the deterioration of lots of things, like tools as well as the conversion of company staff into HR Units.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I've probably got some bits all mixed up in my Alzheimer's Practice Session but....
Late 1980's was it? Hunter Marine founder Warren Luhrs had a new boat built for himself, Thursday's Child? And the keel fell off the bosses boat before he got very far.

Then was it Bertie Roos? In one of the solo-around-the world races in the 90s, who had borrowed (yes, borrowed) enough spent uranium to make his high performance keel from the South African government, and lost the keel (oops) in the Southern Ocean?

These are not budget operations, these are major losses with major design teams behind them.

And of course, Bavaria? had a string of keel attachment problems a decade ago?

They just don't make the Evening Nooze very often, and before the internet became a big thing, there wasn't any convenient way to compare notes about it. The Jungle Telegraph often doesn't reach far offshore.


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## Bene505 (Jul 31, 2008)

SloopJonB said:


> So THAT'S what happened - I always wondered.  Explains the deterioration of lots of things, like tools as well as the conversion of company staff into HR Units.


I noticed it when Dominos pizza declined drastically in quality around the same time. I attributed it to the rise in MBAs -- short term thinkers at the helm of the company. I immediately stopped buying Dominos pizza.

Regards,
Brad


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Bene505 said:


> I noticed it when Dominos pizza declined drastically in quality....


When was Dominos pizza ever quality? 

Born and raised, NYC metro. Sacrilege.


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