# Is sailboat ownership dying ( or at least sick)



## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

I live in Florida - my observation is based on what I see here


I think big boat ownership is doing OK - however under 35 feet there seems not much to be going on. Used to be when crossing the St Johns River in Jacksonville on a nice day I would 6-8 sailboats out - now lucky to see one. On the intracoastal in Cocoa - I see large boats heading north and south 35 ft -50 feet - some newer cruising catamarans - but I don't see 22-30 ft boats like I use to out for a day sail. In the marinas the smaller boats don't seem to get much usage or love. 

I think many just charter when they want to go sailing - owning a boat and the $$ that it takes to keep it up - seems wasteful to most.

But again - my observations from Florida - is it the same elsewhere?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Your observation is correct in my experience. It will come back when gas gets expensive again.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

I don't see it as the case on the Chesapeake where I boat. Even in winter there are boats sailing. Quite a few hardy folks who are members of this forum enjoy bay day sailing in the winter.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Seems to me that while the sales of new sailboats is apparently down, that the marinas still seem fairly full and at least around me with a good percentage of sailboats. But every year folks are saying the end of sailing is neigh. I think it will survive, and there are some good vlogs out there from young sailors that should encourage the kids to buy a cheap old boat and sail the barnacles off the bottom. I would say here in the Hudson Valley (just north of NYC) there are lots of folks still sailing.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

If sailboat ownership is dying, I say great!

More and cheaper boats on the second hand market, cheaper slip and mooring rates, and less crowded waters. What's so distressing about that?

I'm lucky to sail in an area that sees very little boat traffic and I'd like to keep it that way!


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## cascoamarillo (Aug 8, 2013)

I guess everything counts. People recovering for the 2008 crisis and gas prices so low are doing people buy motorboats. Even sailboat makers see this tendency and started building motorboats in detriment of sailboats.


caberg said:


> ... cheaper slip and mooring rates, and less crowded waters.


I seriously doubt that, but I wish...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I suspect what you're seeing has as much (or more) to do with families needing two incomes to make ends meet, with job and other demands on peoples' time making recreation less attainable. Plus it's easier to buy/rent a tent trailer and go on a road trip than to figure out how to sail a boat.

Another head scratcher is the sheer number of boats that are in the marina, covered in green and birdsh*t, and never leaving the dock. In our area presumably someone is still paying $4-5K/year to 'keep' something they clearly never use.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Seems to be the same number of boats out in my area as before and the mooring field is pretty much sold out for the season.


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## dinosdad (Nov 19, 2010)

Is ownership dying ? From my observations in Connecticut perhaps not yet but only because the owners themselves haven't died yet.
Sailboat owners as a demographic seem to be getting older not unlike the classic car hobby. Case in point , this past weekend I went to rhinebeck ny for a car show swap meet, and there is a booth at the entrance that rents jazzy power scooters, same car owners , just aging without anywhere near the numbers of younger generations coming into the hobby to replace those that pass on or are infirmed and unable to be involved any longer. 
Boating as a whole seems to be doing well, but the bulk of younger and those with young families it seems gravitate towards smaller power boats. No storage , park it on the side of the garage , drop it in the river, lake , bay, etc, hit the key whiz around , waterski, pull the kids on the tube , load up bring it home , nice and easy . Not that they couldn't buy a trailer sailor, but I don't care how quick it is to step that mast , the thrill for most is pushing that throttle open and skimming across the water.
Same situation at the yard my boat is in , same people for the most part just getting older.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Faster said:


> I suspect what you're seeing has as much (or more) to do with families needing two incomes to make ends meet, with job and other demands on peoples' time making recreation less attainable. Plus it's easier to buy/rent a tent trailer and go on a road trip than to figure out how to sail a boat.
> 
> Another head scratcher is the sheer number of boats that are in the marina, covered in green and birdsh*t, and never leaving the dock. In our area presumably someone is still paying $4-5K/year to 'keep' something they clearly never use.


I've been seeing this trend in almost all the marinas I've frequented to... many boats covered in algae, dirt, bird poop, etc. Never seen 75% or more of the boats ever going out. When I had my U.S. Yachts in the Everett marina only about 4 -7 boats ever left the slips besides myself. No one left and most were live-a-boards, the rest were power boats and the occasional other month usage of these boats. It makes you wonder why people buy into these things and the dreams fade away for many.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

The marina's are all oversubscribed in my neighborhood, but mostly with power boats. Most of the sailboat owners I know are old (like me), but that maybe because I know of lot of old people:laugh

What I don't see a lot of is what my contemporaries did in our 30's and 40's. We bought our first cruising sailboats, and became hooked on the lifestyle...spending any free time we could get either working on or sailing these boats. We worked hard, but this kept us sane (or at least we thought so).

And I agree with everyone, there's a lot more boats sitting on docks than getting used, but that's not a new phenomena at all IMHO.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Well I guess we 'raised him right' .. Our son bought his first boat in his 20s (before marrying or a first home).. And now at 34 is on his third boat. So I guess he and his family are bucking the trend. 

We spent the weekend with them, the boat and the beach are clearly our 8 yr old grandaughter's 'happy places'. Awesome to see that family tradition carrying on...


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

Sticks still rule in Maine.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

I'd say it's alive and well in Presquile Bay. The marina I'm in has a couple center console fishing boats, the rest are sail. Average age I'd say mid to late 40's. There is also the yacht club around the corner that is full with a waiting list I believe.
I see most everybody on a regular basis even if we're just sitting on the boats on a calm summer evening talking boat.
Maybe because of the short season we make the effort to get as much boat time in as possible. Winters are long and cold up here!


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## Aswayze (Apr 5, 2015)

Boats sitting is a limiting factor where I am.

We have a small marina with a waiting list a mile long and each of the three docks has at least one abandoned boat languishing on it.

Like this one:










Our dry storage yard has 35% of it's space occupied by abandoned boats many of which were clearly fabulous boats when they were parked but are now nearly full to the brim with water in the cabins growing God only knows what inside.

We have "25" mooring balls minus the 4 that my boat and the other heavier boat yanked out last season (the county does not really understand that sailboats are heavy) That leaves 21 balls but in reality 5 of those are too close to each other for anything to stay at and a further two are in water so shallow that you'd run a Sunfish aground if you tried to get to them. Another 2 of them are occupied by ghost ships that are kept afloat by a few of us who dingy over to them and pump them out when they start to get low in the water.

So...

A nice young couple showed up last weekend with a Westerly Centaur and were just barely able to get noodled in ending up on a ball way back up in the swamp end of the mooring field at a lake that has a perfectly sized marina, with plenty of dry sail area to park trailers in. The next family will not make it in which means that I and my active neighbors will sail on in the company of the Marie Celestes of the world while folks who want to sail are shut out.

This is a problem on an inland lake... I thought I had seen the last of this when I moved away from the coast!

I am certain this is a limiting factor elsewhere as well.


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## dhays (Jul 9, 2010)

I doubt you are doing much sailing with that flat water. :wink



caberg said:


> I'm lucky to sail in an area that sees very little boat traffic and I'd like to keep it that way!


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I sincerely believe that boating, in general, has gone by the wayside, even in the confines of Chesapeake Bay where recreational boating was at one time $billion dollar a year business with a huge number of boat and outdoor shows. Many of the boat shows are mere skeletons of what they were just two decades ago, and more than half of the shows no longer exist. 

Some of this is due to the lack of funds to enjoy what at one time was a relatively inexpensive pastime. Additionally, recreational fishing is extremely expensive, and the catch limits have been reduced to next to nothing, therefore making it impracticable to spend a day on the bay and hoping to catch enough fish to feed the family for more than a single meal.

When I was young, about 23 years of age, I owned a 30-foot mahogany cabin cruiser powered with a flathead, Ford six that had been converted for marine use. I paid $1,500 for the boat, had to finance it, and the bank really didn't want to give me the loan. I kept it at Deep Creek on the lower Magothy River, and the slip rent back then was $1 per foot per month and included water and electricity. My wife and I would purchase a bushel of soft shell clams for bait, which cost about $2, motor across the bay to the Dumping Grounds, which is situated about 1/4-mile west of Kent Island, and chum for striped bass. We were usually accompanied by at least another 500 or more boats, all doing the same thing. Out catches consisted of striped bass to 5 pounds, croaker to 3 pounds, and an occasional bluefish or weakfish to 10 pounds. It usually only took a couple hours to fill an 80 quart cooler chest with fish, then we motored back to the marina and cleaned our catch before heading home. 

Today, you would be hard pressed to find a dozen fishing boats in that same area, and those that are there will likely be trolling, because chumming is way to expensive, even with ground menhaden for chum. The vast majority will be lucky, after 10 hours of fishing, to catch their 2 fish per person limit of striped bass. TWO FISH - THAT'S IT!

The other thing that is wiping out recreational boating, IMO, is young people want everything instantly. It's that instant gratification attitude that keeps them staring at a tiny screen of an I-phone most of their waking minutes. If they left home without it, they would be in a state of sheer panic. If it's not lightning fast, they really don't seem to want any part of it. Of course, there are some exceptions, but they are indeed rare. A great example of this was seen just today while I was sitting in the waiting room of my cardiologist. Nearly everyone under age 50 had a phone in their hands, both thumbs popping the keys as fast as possible, this despite three relatively large signs that said "POSITIVELY NO CELL PHONES USE ALLOWED IN THIS OFFICE!" I guess the geniuses that texting didn't count.

Finally, considering that the average American household income has dropped more than $4,000 in the past 7 years, for many the cost of boating is out of the question. A fair number of younger couples have moved into my neighborhood during the past decade, your professionals, and for the most part, both parents are working full time jobs just to make ends meet. Boating, even sailing, is fairly expensive, even if the boat is paid for. At the very least, slip rent is going to set you back about $300 a month in my part of Chesapeake Bay for a 30 footer. Add to that the cost of winter storage, water and electric, maintenance and repair costs, and there's no wonder that a lot of younger folks will not likely be getting into recreational boating, sailing or power.

Just my .02 cents worth,

Gary


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## jeremiahblatz (Sep 23, 2013)

Counterpoint: I belong to a sailing club in NYC. When I joined 4 years ago they had like 5 or 6 boats. Now they have two locations with 15 or so J/24s and a few hobies. Tuesday evening races are full, and there's an informal pick-up racing scene. Most members are 20-30 and haven't sailed much or at all prior to joining. I guess these were the people who, in the 70's, would be buying boats? About 50 members have signed up to go out in the next 7 days, and we don't even have all the boats in the water yet. 

So, even if ownership is down (I think this is a documented fact), there is a renaissance happening in community sailing. Obviously post-Carter economic effects have decimated private boat ownership, and fiberglass has decimated sales of brand-new boats. However, there's no reason *sailing* can't grow!


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## Skyeterrier (Feb 11, 2016)

http://www.nmma.org/assets/cabinets/Cabinet432/NMMA_ecoimpact_booklet_optimized.pdf

Data from the 2012 National Marine Manufacturer's Association Recreational Boating Economic Study:

12.2M boats
9.9M powerboats (82%)
1.3M PWCs (10%)
0.25M sailboats (2%)
0.7M other boats (6%)

Sailboats represent 2% of recreational boats. Not sure how this compares with past years. I believe most of the data was from post 2008 economic crash.

I think sailing is a pretty expensive hobby/sport especially if you are paying permanent dock or slip fees. I suppose it could be more popular if there was promotion of less expensive forms of the activity to young people like windsurfing, sailing small Lasers and Hobie Cats but I see no evidence of promotions like this.

The types of sailing that could be accessible to people of modest means are not actively promoted, there's no way for those people to make the connection between themselves and that activity. And unless you know someone with a boat I don't think there's any avenue for novices to become crew for either pleasure sails or racing.

I think the appearance of the activity to the "average" person is of an insular, expensive world that has substantial barriers to entry. Not only does it appear difficult to enter, but if the image of sailors is blue blazer yacht club types (Ted Knight Caddyshack character), those people may wonder if it's even a club they want to join.

How closely this image reflects the reality is debatable but I think just the money and time investment required is daunting to the huge majority of potential sailors.

I suppose we could all reflect on how much of an ambassador each of us are being for sailing. How often do you take your boat out? When you do, how often do you invite someone who's never been sailing before, teach them the basics, how much effort do you take to insure they are having a good time etc.?


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Faster said:


> I suspect what you're seeing has as much (or more) to do with families needing two incomes to make ends meet, with job and other demands on peoples' time making recreation less attainable. Plus it's easier to buy/rent a tent trailer and go on a road trip than to figure out how to sail a boat.
> 
> Another head scratcher is the sheer number of boats that are in the marina, covered in green and birdsh*t, and never leaving the dock. In our area presumably someone is still paying $4-5K/year to 'keep' something they clearly never use.


Yea, the two income family thing is a real problem for all sorts of outdoor activities. All outdoor activities seem to be down and everyone seems to be putting most of the "entertainment money" into cable and internet. Heck the average family pays over $2,000 a year on cable/internet think about that! (double that figure if you add in the data portion of the cell phone plans)



Faster said:


> Well I guess we 'raised him right' .. Our son bought his first boat in his 20s (before marrying or a first home).. And now at 34 is on his third boat. So I guess he and his family are bucking the trend.
> 
> We spent the weekend with them, the boat and the beach are clearly our 8 yr old grandaughter's 'happy places'. Awesome to see that family tradition carrying on...


Clearly you ruined him for life! :laugh

My parents were not really boat folks at all. Dad seemed to enjoy being out on OPBs but never wanted one. (good thing too because he would have to spend a fortune maintaining it because he would have to pay someone) But he did take me to a lake once when I was small and we rented some sunfish and I was hooked. It is a bad drug it only took once!


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Skyeterrier said:


> ...
> 
> The types of sailing that could be accessible to people of modest means are not actively promoted, there's no way for those people to make the connection between themselves and that activity. And unless you know someone with a boat I don't think there's any avenue for novices to become crew for either pleasure sails or racing.
> 
> I think the appearance of the activity to the "average" person is of an insular, expensive world that has substantial barriers to entry. Not only does it appear difficult to enter, but if the image of sailors is blue blazer yacht club types (Ted Knight Caddyshack character), those people may wonder if it's even a club they want to join....


Maybe I'm in the minority (in more ways than one), but when I wanted to learn to sail and buy a boat none of that ever crossed my mind as being a barrier. It didn't cross my mind period. It was something I wanted to do so I just...did it. I found a small boat that happened to be for sale about a mile away and bought it. To me it was between me and my boat, not me and "blue blazers" and the rest. I didn't grow up around boats or yacht clubs and since I don't watch a lot of movies I didn't get the Caddyshack perspective (I still haven't seen that movie). Maybe it's good that I only watched Captain Ron for the first time ten years into it and at SNer's, er, insistence.


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## VF84Sluggo (Jan 1, 2015)

Faster said:


> Another head scratcher is the sheer number of boats that are in the marina, covered in green and birdsh*t, and never leaving the dock. In our area presumably someone is still paying $4-5K/year to 'keep' something they clearly never use.


My wife made this same observation a short while ago.

Had to agree. I like to every now and then just walk the slips at the marinas in the area looking at boats. The number that are clearly just rotting away is a sad thing to see, and seem to more and more outnumber the smart and well cared for sailboats.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

You nailed it. Young people do not have enough disposable income to go into sailing/boating.



travlineasy said:


> I sincerely believe that boating, in general, has gone by the wayside, even in the confines of Chesapeake Bay where recreational boating was at one time $billion dollar a year business with a huge number of boat and outdoor shows. Many of the boat shows are mere skeletons of what they were just two decades ago, and more than half of the shows no longer exist.
> 
> Some of this is due to the lack of funds to enjoy what at one time was a relatively inexpensive pastime. Additionally, recreational fishing is extremely expensive, and the catch limits have been reduced to next to nothing, therefore making it impracticable to spend a day on the bay and hoping to catch enough fish to feed the family for more than a single meal.
> 
> ...


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

New York is the exception rather than the rule. I sail a lot in NYC and in the Chesapeake Bay.



jeremiahblatz said:


> Counterpoint: I belong to a sailing club in NYC. When I joined 4 years ago they had like 5 or 6 boats. Now they have two locations with 15 or so J/24s and a few hobies. Tuesday evening races are full, and there's an informal pick-up racing scene. Most members are 20-30 and haven't sailed much or at all prior to joining. I guess these were the people who, in the 70's, would be buying boats? About 50 members have signed up to go out in the next 7 days, and we don't even have all the boats in the water yet.
> 
> So, even if ownership is down (I think this is a documented fact), there is a renaissance happening in community sailing. Obviously post-Carter economic effects have decimated private boat ownership, and fiberglass has decimated sales of brand-new boats. However, there's no reason *sailing* can't grow!


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

As others have pointed out, the economy is not exactly booming even with low fuel prices. The other problem is that the modern generations are digital, and sailing is not exactly a digital undertaking. Sailing does not produce instant gratification for those who do not appreciate their position in the cosmos as that of a pimple on the butt of a flea. My attraction to sailing (as a 60+ person) is the simple connection to those hardy souls from humanity's past who "dared to go where man had not yet trod" in wooden vessels and crude navigation instruments. It is the same thing that draws me to collect historic black powder weapons that were used in creating the world where individuals could choose their own destiny, except now we seem to be moving back to a feudal system where a few control everything and the rest of us simply endure to survive. Surviving on a sailing vessel is an attraction for me......


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

I certainly hope that sailing is in decline. I'm hoping to buy my first cruising sailboat soon and I'm hoping that it continues to be a buyers' market.

There are fewer people in their 70s and 80s than my age group (60s) but I read a lot of ads saying that "owner has become too old to sail and mast sell." I'm hoping to buy one of those boats. 

And I like that fantasy of marinas with empty slips and moorings.


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

The fantasy may be of marinas with empty slips and moorings but the reality is that empty slips are soon replaced with waterfront condos.


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## VF84Sluggo (Jan 1, 2015)

^^^^^ True that!!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

As far as I can tell, the bareboating activity in the BVI has been booming.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Ownership itself is getting older.
Boat ages are also getting older (meaning many of the boats you see out there - average age - are older).
Less new boat sales as was shown earlier.

Generally less new people getting into sailing, my personal opinion.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Many good points. I don't really understand how many poor or working class people can buy a $60,000 pickup and just use it as a car, but I see it all the time here. Imagine the boat they could have. Imagine the charters, the vacations, the adventures ... by the time they pay the truck off, $60k becomes $75k. And people claim they have no money. Lots of them " rolling coal" with a $3000 set of wheels/tires. 

The two income thing really kills your free time. When my wife only worked part time we would spend many more days playing hooky on the boat. And I think there is a cultural thing too, short attention spans, go fast addiction, general stupidity. "Idiocracy". 

And maybe its just me, but I have a hard time getting non sailing friends to come sailing. They would rather do yard work.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

SloopJonB said:


> Your observation is correct in my experience. It will come back when gas gets expensive again.


Surveys and studies in the Chesapeake Bay region do not support this.
Believe it or not, people simply keep buying power boats but merely limit their range of travel in reaction to fuel prices.

The bottom line is that powerboats do not require any skill to operate. In Maryland, you take a silly little safety course online and print out your Completion Certificate and that's it.

Sailing is a skill that takes a little time to cultivate and to many, it looks like too much effort expended for too little reward regardless of the fuel savings.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

travlineasy said:


> A great example of this was seen just today while I was sitting in the waiting room of my cardiologist. Nearly everyone under age 50 had a phone in their hands, both thumbs popping the keys as fast as possible, this despite three relatively large signs that said "POSITIVELY NO CELL PHONES USE ALLOWED IN THIS OFFICE!" I guess the geniuses that texting didn't count.


50 is the new 20?

I can't understand why people texting on a phone would upset anyone (in a *waiting* room of all places).


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

dhays said:


> I doubt you are doing much sailing with that flat water. :wink


Not on that day, but no complaints when there is not a person within miles in any direction.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

caberg said:


> If sailboat ownership is dying, I say great!
> 
> More and cheaper boats on the second hand market, cheaper slip and mooring rates, and less crowded waters. What's so distressing about that?
> 
> I'm lucky to sail in an area that sees very little boat traffic and I'd like to keep it that way!


Except that marinas will fail and parts suppliers will go out of business.

You'll have nowhere to keep your boat because all the marinas and yards will have been snapped up by developers and turned into waterfront condos.

No one will sell you parts to maintain your cheaply bought sailboat.


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## PaThomas123 (Mar 29, 2011)

ownership maybe down but the sailing school in our marina is booming but do they buy or can they buy sailing is expensive very expensive


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

We're all here on this and other sailing forums because we own sailboats otherwise we wouldn't be here. Most of us either sailed early in our lives or were introduced by our parents, friends, vacation charter with friends, etc. This to me is how many of us started in this sailing hobby, adventure, business, etc. The problem is the new generation are not being introduced properly to sailing, or by design younger people are just not attuned to this part of life and would prefer other venues of entertainment mostly internet, music, cellphones, gaming, etc.

The life of hanging out on 30+ year old sailboats that means 'work' just doesn't appeal to younger crowds... I can't get my son interested at all in the sailboat anymore... at first he liked sailing with us but lost interest doing other more interesting (to him) adventures with his friends. The idea of sailing with 53 year old mom and 60 year old dad just wasn't in the cards for him... he'd rather be with his friends gaming/hanging out... even though we introduced him at an early age sailing/boating with us. Same with my daughter... just not interested at all... sad but this is the plight of our sailing future.

The young kids (25-35 yr olds) in our sailing club are sailors whose parents introduced them very early in their lives and it stuck with them... most young kids today will go on an outing for several days and eager to be out sailing but then they lose interest. I have to wonder how many of the kids in the Sea Scouts program actually continue to sail in their later years actually buying a sailboat and continuing this sailing life.

Here are some of the priority for the Sea Scouts this year:



> What are the strategic plan priority areas for 2016?
> 
> There are five main priorities for 2016:
> •Grow New Ships.
> ...


Telling how the future is heading for our younger sailors.


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## oldragbaggers (Dec 6, 2005)

I agree with the poster who said that the type of sailing that is affordable is not being promoted. Even learning to sail has become a very expensive proposition. In my area a basic keelboat class runs $700. If you want to take the whole series of classes you can expect to rack up a bill in the $thousands$.

When we first start sailing there were sailing clubs around where you could go and take a Red Cross basic sailing class on little daysailers (we learned on Lido and Capri 14s) for very little money. In our case with a nominal fee to join the club we also had use of those boats either free or for a very nominal daily fee. It was affordable for most anybody and you really learned how to sail in a boat that was going to quickly deposit your butt in the drink if you didn't do it right. No engines, so we learned to sail them onto and off of the dock, and do everything else under sail. It was a wonderful time and we really learned the nuances of wind and sail. 

I'll bet a lot of the older folks out there sailing now learned on Optimists, Sunfish, El Toros, or other sailing dinghys, and they probably had their own boats and the freedom to go out piddling around in it alone and figure it all out. They learned very young what an adventure conquering the wind in your own boat could be. Parents today and in the recent past are reluctant to turn their kids loose alone in their own front yard, let alone in a small boat.

Now people either take the ASAs at considerable cost, learning on keelboats with engines (and probably couldn't conceive of doing it on anything else) or their idea of the way to investigate whether they might like sailing is to go to the BVI and charter with a hired captain to show them what to do. Good grief, no wonder people have come to view it as a rich man's sport and think they need a fortune to get into it. 

The financing situation makes it difficult too. Banks will no longer finance a sailboat that is over 20 years old even though there are plenty of boats out there much older than that that are still very fine and capable boats, until they aren't. I am convinced, because we have been in this situation, that if you could finance these older boats there would be a lot less derelicts around. An older 30-35' boat in really good condition is going to cost at least $25K, likely much more if it is well maintained and equipped, but for the average young person coming up with $25K+ is darned near impossible. But coming up with a couple hundred a month for a boat payment would be do-able. So you've got a really nice older (over 20 years) 35' boat and you put it up for sale because you can no longer use it, have health issues, inherited it, whatever the case, and it doesn't sell because no one comes along that has cash for it and it's not eligible for financing. It sits, it deteriorates. The owner has lost interest, or maybe whatever condition is compelling him to sell is also preventing him from using and maintaining the boat. But it can't pass into the hands of someone who could use it because those young people who might want to have that nice old boat as a family boat (because they sure can't afford a new one at $150K+ for the average 30 footer) don't have the funds to pay cash and can't get a loan. The boat is pretty much doomed at that point, and even if it started out in good condition it will become a derelict in short order. If only boat lending was based strictly on boat condition, equipment, and survey value rather than on age....

We were in this situation a couple of times. We had found a couple of 25+ year old solidly built, immaculate, and wonderfully maintained older boats, world cruiser type boats, that passed surveys with flying colors, but could find no one willing to finance them. So, we ended up doing what we always seem to do....finding one that was in such a state of neglect that we could pay cash for it and fixing it up on a "as funds become available" basis. 

No doubt at least some of those old boats sat long enough that they became sad victims of neglect instead of the beautiful and functional boats they were when we looked at them, simply because the means and money to buy them were not available to the people who would have put them to good use. 

To me those are some of the reasons more young people are not getting into the sport.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

The train maybe leaving the station, but IMHO we could all contribute to turning this situation for the better. Here's some ideas:

1. Don't make it elitist, because it isn't. Don't show off that you know the name of every line from the barber hauler to the cunningham. Make it sound easy, because it mostly is. Many of us, including myself need to get off the "my boat is better than yours train." Who cares, go sailing.

2. Don't always lead with how expensive it is. Draw others into it gradually. A frog will sit in gradually warming water till it cooks!

3. Teach, but a little at a time. Explain one thing, like how to steer to keep the telltales straight back, and put your new sailer on the helm and shut up when they mess up. Don't start with what every string does.

4. Post pictures on Facebook for your young relatives and friends to see everyone having a great time and invite them to come along. Tweet em pictures when you are out there. Work in their media.

5. Start em on a calm day, with moderate winds. Don't scare them away.

6. Don't minimize any sailing experience. Cape horn in force 10 isn't required to be an accomplished sailer. Make it around the lake in 10kts, and lather on the praise.

7. Take young people sailing.


You can buy a small sailboat, or join a sailing club for less than the annual cost of your smart phone and cable TV. It's a matter of choice. It's hard to compete with the apple, android, xfinity, Fios, advertisements, but reality always beats virtual reality. 

Yea, I know, I'm old and don't get it.


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## jeremiahblatz (Sep 23, 2013)

The amount of fogeys complaining about kids and their short attention spans/instant gratification desires here is really disappointing. If you care about getting young people in boats, you might want to do some reading based on actual research. For example: https://hcexchange.conference-board.org/blog/post.cfm?post=5173


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

capecodda said:


> Yea, I know, I'm old and don't get it.


This is the problem... we're all 'old' to some degree none of us are under 25 yrs of age. I bet if we took a poll here you'd be surprised at the age group of most posters here. I bet there is 1-2% of us under 30 yrs of age posting anywhere here or other sailing forums and if they are younger are not spending their time on these forums but instead sailing/power-boating, etc.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Jeremiah, my statements are based upon my own experiences with lots of younger individuals that I know personally and what I see in day to day life. Yes, I'm old, and damned proud to have lived this long. 

I read the article you referenced, and it really did not provide what I anticipated as quality research and factual information. Maybe I missed something, but the article appeared to have more to do with work ethics of younger individuals than anything else. I think the irony of this was seen a week ago when I went to a Verizon store to exchange some top boxes. There were two young ladies in their mid 20s behind the counter, and one young man about the same age. One of the ladies, who was very attractive, I might add, immediately acknowledged that I was in the store and asked if she could help me. The second lady never looked up from her I-phone, and the young man was busy packing some stuff in boxes, so I didn't expect him to respond. 

I was there for at least 20 minutes, filling out forms, etc..., the young lady taking care of me asked several questions and put the information in her computer, and two other couples walked into the store. The other young lady was still glued to her I-phone and never looked up. Finally, the young man stopped what he was doing and acknowledged the other customers in the store. Now, if I were the owner/franchiser/manager of that store, and I witnessed that type of work ethic, that young lady would be looking for another place or type of employment. She either had an affliction or an addiction to her I-phone, and from my observations, that phone was the most important thing in her life. Do you sincerely believe that this type of individual could be remotely interested in the sport of sailing?

Gary


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

oldragbaggers said:


> The financing situation makes it difficult too. Banks will no longer finance a sailboat that is over 20 years old even though there are plenty of boats out there much older than that that are still very fine and capable boats, until they aren't.


Shhh... Don't tell my bank that I just financed a 35 year old boat, using a boat loan (not an "unsecured" loan).

Oh wait...they already know.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Good to see that old people are still complaining about the decline of the younger generation. Maybe in 30 or 40 years I can use my iphone to look back on this message and remind myself to not do the same.


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## oldragbaggers (Dec 6, 2005)

Ajax_MD said:


> Shhh... Don't tell my bank that I just financed a 35 year old boat, using a boat loan (not an "unsecured" loan).
> 
> Oh wait...they already know.


Wow....I am very happy for you. We were able to finance a 1982 Cape Dory 28 in 2007, but that was the last time. Since the "crash" or whatever you want to call it, we have been told by every bank (our own credit union of many years included), marine loan company, and marine loan broker that no, no, and triple no way will they finance the older boats. You are sitting on an information gold mine knowing someone who will do it.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

caberg said:


> Good to see that old people are still complaining about the decline of the younger generation. Maybe in 30 or 40 years I can use my iphone to look back on this message and remind myself to not do the same.


It will be a handheld holographic virtual reality device, and your old photos won't be compatible:laugh


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## jeremiahblatz (Sep 23, 2013)

All I know is that I'm supposed to be complaining about 20-somethings (I'm a bit over 40), but instead I spend my days hiring and managing them, and my weekends and evenings sailing with them. Half of my race crew is under 30; one of them can't even come to the bar with us after races. I don't think the problem is the people, I think it's mainly economics and the institutions that have grown around sailing. Not much you and I can do about the economy, but I feel like folks here can do a lot to reform our existing institutions, and to help build new ways to let folks get out on the water.


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## oldragbaggers (Dec 6, 2005)

Ajax_MD said:


> Shhh... Don't tell my bank that I just financed a 35 year old boat, using a boat loan (not an "unsecured" loan).
> 
> Oh wait...they already know.


Since I live in the same area as you and tried everything, including Trident Funding who said they had no sources that would do it, I would love to know who did your financing for you. Also, what kind of boat?


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

I'm seeing an opposite trend. Boats are so cheap. Many of the kids that sailed when they were young, still do around here.

We bought our son a sail-away 26'er, for a dollar last fall(yeah it needs work...). He's looking forward to do a little coastal cruising when he gets home from school, mid summer. He has a friend with another 'dollar' boat (his dad paid some money, but it's only worth a dollar, trust me), that will join him. Those boats will be packed with kids that love to sail and be out on the water.

I can't imagine getting involved in sailing boats like that when I was his age. No way! The first boat I bought as an adult, was a canoe(275 bucks, I remember).

We've got him on the waiting list for a mooring(there's waiting lists in all harbors around here). Once he gets that, he can keep that boat for about 1,000 a year to haul store, launch and moor.

Not a bad price compared to many recreations.

Our daughter too, still loves to sail and comes home from NYC (where she works), to see us, and to go sailing(and she brings friends to sail). She's making real money and will probably be able to afford more than a dollar boat when she decides to come back to Maine (and she will, you just know your kids).


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

oldragbaggers said:


> Since I live in the same area as you and tried everything, including Trident Funding who said they had no sources that would do it, I would love to know who did your financing for you. Also, what kind of boat?


Navy Federal Credit Union, for a Tartan 33.

I spent 30 minutes on a Sunday afternoon, talking with a human representative (not a computer) who asked me a script of questions about the equipment, then she ran all that through an algorithm that spat out a result in the form of a maximum loan amount and an interest rate.

My friend also bought a Tartan 33 back in October and was successfully financed by USAA for a considerably larger sum than mine. (Yes we're twinsies now, don't judge.)


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## oldragbaggers (Dec 6, 2005)

Ajax_MD said:


> Navy Federal Credit Union, for a Tartan 33.
> 
> I spent 30 minutes on a Sunday afternoon, talking with a human representative (not a computer) who asked me a script of questions about the equipment, then she ran all that through an algorithm that spat out a result in the form of a maximum loan amount and an interest rate.
> 
> My friend also bought a Tartan 33 back in October and was successfully financed by USAA for a considerably larger sum than mine. (Yes we're twinsies now, don't judge.)


Awesome. We used to have NFCU, but closed our accounts years ago and can't reopen them now because husband is out of the Navy, but not a full retiree, darned. However, we just moved all our accounts to USAA so maybe when it's time for our senior trawler we'll have better luck.

Congrats on your boat, and your twin.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

NFCU keeps relaxing their membership requirements, so perhaps you should check again.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

It's unfair to generalize about any group of society.. but there are definitely 'things' that have developed in today's connected world that I don't believe are necessarily for the better. 

People talk about 'needing' a TV on the boat... really? ... How many times have you walked by a cafe patio and seen couples sitting together, both heads down tapping on their phones. I often wonder if they are texting each other rather than speaking to each other... All the same, the technology is amazing and enables good things too.

We get away for 6-8 weeks every summer.. rarely get wifi, don't have data plans and we're often out of coverage anyway. As much as I enjoy participating on SN, the summer breaks are very refreshing - and it always takes weeks to get back 'on line' like I am in winter.


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## poopdeckpappy (Jul 25, 2006)

Faster said:


> Another head scratcher is the sheer number of boats that are in the marina, covered in green and birdsh*t, and never leaving the dock.


It's a truly sad sight. For some dreams are like the stars that we can never reach, but none the less, we set our course by them, some plot a better course than others I suppose.


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## oldragbaggers (Dec 6, 2005)

Faster said:


> I suspect what you're seeing has as much (or more) to do with families needing two incomes to make ends meet, with job and other demands on peoples' time making recreation less attainable. Plus it's easier to buy/rent a tent trailer and go on a road trip than to figure out how to sail a boat.
> 
> Another head scratcher is the sheer number of boats that are in the marina, covered in green and birdsh*t, and never leaving the dock. In our area presumably someone is still paying $4-5K/year to 'keep' something they clearly never use.


This must be a regional thing. My marina, and this whole general area, has a very active sailing culture. Not saying we don't have derelicts around, but I am not exaggerating when I say that there are so many boats going in and out of our marina during the season that you sometimes have to sit outside in the channel and circle around to wait your turn to come in and dock. And the entrance to Middle River is like the freeway sometimes with all the boat traffic going in and out, and a lot of it is sail. Ever been boating in the Annapolis area? They don't call it the sailboat capital of the world for nothing. I'm sure it's less than it used to be, but there are still a lot of sails flying around here on any given weekend during the season.

We have a little sailing center run by the county at the end of our street. They have quite a large fleet of little 12' sailing dinghies that they offer classes on. I love seeing them all out in the Bay loaded with kids learning to sail. I would love to see more of that. Maybe kids might like it more if they learned it that way, as a fun activity with other kids, rather than just being dragged along with their parents.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

"Dead" boats standing about in marinas has been endemic since I was a teenager (and that was a long time ago). I used to wander about our local marina and drool over boats that never left the dock year after year. We still have those boats all around us, different country, different era, same scenario. There's nothing new there.

Where I live/boat, we have the near-sinkers as well but I can look out the window on any given day at just about any time and see sail boats passing by. Most schools in our area have sailing on their sports curriculum and they are mostly oversubscribed. Any achorage within the cruising areas that we frequent is always full of boats, not all sailors but we are well represented all year round.

What is of considerable interest to me is that the mid-sized sailing boat is no longer built in NZ. If you want one, you buy used or you buy an import. This in a country where the 25 to 35 footer is the most common size out there. One can only assume that older boats are continuously changing hands or the ownership is growing older because the new imports are generally financially out of reach for the younger folks.

But to answer the question - no, sailing is definitely not dying in NZ.

BTW, who saw Team New Zealand sailing the last race in NYC a few days ago? From a penalty on the start line and stone-last to a kick-a$$ win. And we have a 49r crew who have not lost a regatta in the last 26 (I think) they have sailed and have won 4 consecutive world titles. No, sailing is alive and very well here down under.


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## rckfd (Dec 3, 2015)

oldragbaggers said:


> They don't call it the sailboat capital of the world for nothing.


Did you hear that France, New Zealand and Australia just declared war on the US.

You might want to rethink that ?


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## oldragbaggers (Dec 6, 2005)

rckfd said:


> Did you hear that France, New Zealand and Australia just declared war on the US.
> 
> You might want to rethink that ?


I should have said sailboat capital of the U.S. or sailboat capital of America.

When will I ever learn.....


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## rckfd (Dec 3, 2015)

oldragbaggers said:


> I should have said sailboat capital of the U.S. or sailboat capital of America.
> 
> When will I ever learn.....


Did you hear that Newport, Camden ME, San Francisco and San Diego, Seattle just declared war on Annapolis!

;-)

Oh yeah Vancouver sorry my CA brothers...


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## bones92 (Apr 1, 2016)

capecodda said:


> The train maybe leaving the station, but IMHO we could all contribute to turning this situation for the better. Here's some ideas:
> 
> 1. Don't make it elitist, because it isn't.
> 2. Don't always lead with how expensive it is.
> ...


Capecodda nailed it. The future of sailing is in all of our hands. I never set foot aboard a sailboat before I showed up at USNA, but I know I would have loved to sail as a youngster.

I have a secret plan to take as many people sailing as I can. We have many friends with young kids... who knows what lifelong memories and future sailing passion can be instilled in just one afternoon on a sailboat.

I can't really say how sailing is faring in NC, though there are just as many sailboats on the water down by Morehead City as I recall 10 or 20 years ago.

I think a lot has to do with the fact that a lot of "affordable" boats are getting older, and as I understand it, fewer and fewer boats are being made in the 20-23' range (which seems to be the ideal trailer sailor range for someone with a family). Older boats fall into disrepair, people get scared away from them. Newer boats are EXPENSIVE! (just look on sailboatlistings.com for 20-23' boats made since 2010).

On a side note, I sometimes wonder if there isn't a potential business for buying project sailboats, restoring them to excellent or like-new condition, and reselling for a modest profit.


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

No. 4 on capecodda's list is really important. Flooding your Twitter, Facebook and whatever other social media sites with pictures on boats will give all your contacts FOMO and that is a great way to spike interest.


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## oldragbaggers (Dec 6, 2005)

Bones92, what years were you at the Academy? My husband was a sailing instructor there from 1987-1990.


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## bones92 (Apr 1, 2016)

oldragbaggers said:


> Bones92, what years were you at the Academy? My husband was a sailing instructor there from 1987-1990.


1988-1992

I did the OSTS(?) program during my 2nd-class year, until the Spring when I discovered that Marine Corps OCS would prevent me from being able to do the 3-week summer sailing cruise. Still, those months of taking the Navy 44's out each afternoon were really fun.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

bones92 said:


> On a side note, I sometimes wonder if there isn't a potential business for buying project sailboats, restoring them to excellent or like-new condition, and reselling for a modest profit.


Wuchoo been smokin'?


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## oldragbaggers (Dec 6, 2005)

bones92 said:


> oldragbaggers said:
> 
> 
> > Bones92, what years were you at the Academy? My husband was a sailing instructor there from 1987-1990.
> ...


Which boat? My husband was on the Courageous. His name is Lance Williams


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## boathooked (Jun 25, 2015)

Ajax_MD said:


> The bottom line is that powerboats do not require any skill to operate. In Maryland, you take a silly little safety course online and print out your Completion Certificate and that's it.
> 
> Sailing is a skill that takes a little time to cultivate and to many, it looks like too much effort expended for too little reward regardless of the fuel savings.


I own a powerboat and am part of a sailing club. I can say, without a doubt, that this is the core of the issue. My own wife, who did ASA101 with me and is open to owning a sailboat still occasionally wonders why given how much time/skill it takes compared to just starting the engines and going.

Given two working parents, kids activities out the wazoo, and the typical "honey do" list, what time people do have they want to "get and go", sorry but sailing is not conducive to that mentality.


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## VF84Sluggo (Jan 1, 2015)

^^^^ Both comments in the above post are great!!

Indeed, getting a sailboat underway, sailing it efficiently, getting back in the slip; all take skill and effort, as mentioned, to do it well...but THAT'S what makes it good! 

Right now I'm teaching my son to sail. We rent a Hunter 18. First time out, he asked where the engine is; told him there is none. We leave, navigate the channel's turns, sail the bay, and return, all under sail. Told him this is how we had to do it with the Knockabouts at the Naval Academy. I LOVE it.


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## boathooked (Jun 25, 2015)

jeremiahblatz said:


> The amount of fogeys complaining about kids and their short attention spans/instant gratification desires here is really disappointing. If you care about getting young people in boats, you might want to do some reading based on actual research. For example: https://hcexchange.conference-board.org/blog/post.cfm?post=5173


I do not consider myself a "fogey", let alone old, at 46. However in interacting with my 17 year old step-son and 16 year old step-daughter (and by proxy their friends), they ARE glued to their devices/the Internet, period. I had my step-son damn near go into a panic when we found out a house we were looking at purchasing could ONLY get a 6mbps Internet connection (we have 50mbps now). Not kidding.

He has gone sailing with me, and actually stated how it calmed him and took him away from his iPhone, but that is a powerful addiction sadly.


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## johnny buddha (Jan 12, 2016)

TomMaine said:


> Sticks still rule in Maine.


Beautiful photo!


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## boathooked (Jun 25, 2015)

oldragbaggers said:


> Wow....I am very happy for you. We were able to finance a 1982 Cape Dory 28 in 2007, but that was the last time. Since the "crash" or whatever you want to call it, we have been told by every bank (our own credit union of many years included), marine loan company, and marine loan broker that no, no, and triple no way will they finance the older boats. You are sitting on an information gold mine knowing someone who will do it.


USAA (if you are able to join) will loan on just about any boat age. They care about one thing...value of loan to value of boat.


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## johnny buddha (Jan 12, 2016)

Ajax_MD said:


> Shhh... Don't tell my bank that I just financed a 35 year old boat, using a boat loan (not an "unsecured" loan).
> 
> Oh wait...they already know.





oldragbaggers said:


> You are sitting on an information gold mine knowing someone who will do it.


We just financed our 32 year old Beneteau - options were limited, but we found a lender willing to do it.


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## johnny buddha (Jan 12, 2016)

Ajax_MD said:


> Navy Federal Credit Union, for a Tartan 33.


+1 for NFCU - they financed us, too.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

In Minneapolis there is obviously a different sailing culture than on the coasts, but I don't see any signs of ownership dying.

The little city lake where I keep my boat only filled about half the buoys two years ago. Last year just a couple buoys were left. This year there's a waiting list. Lots of new boat owners, and some of the old owners are moving up to nicer boats.

I'm also in a community sailing club on another lake. When we opened up the website for new members this spring all 40 spots were filled within 5 minutes. And a lot of people who join that club get hooked and later end up buying their own boat (that's what happened to me).

Of course I'm talking about smaller boats than what most of the rest of you are talking about, but it shows there's no lack of interest in sailing and sailboat ownership, at least here in flyover land.

(Oh, to all the "Get off my lawn, you damned kids!" people out there: A lot of the people I'm talking about are young. On my lake there's an 18-year-old with a Balboa 22.˙A lot of the people in the sailing club are recent college graduates. People have been griping about the kids since Shakespeare, heck, since the bible. Ain't nothing new under the sun, the oldsters always think the kids are useless, but it always works out.)


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## pdxskipper (Sep 9, 2014)

guitarguy56 said:


> ...The life of hanging out on 30+ year old sailboats that means 'work' just doesn't appeal to younger crowds... I can't get my son interested at all in the sailboat anymore... at first he liked sailing with us but lost interest doing other more interesting (to him) adventures with his friends. The idea of sailing with 53 year old mom and 60 year old dad just wasn't in the cards for him... he'd rather be with his friends gaming/hanging out... even though we introduced him at an early age sailing/boating with us. Same with my daughter... just not interested at all... sad but this is the plight of our sailing future...


I think this is more of a generational thing than something new.

I felt the exact same way your son does and my father could have written the above back in the late 60's and early 70's. Of course now that I'm 61 and coming back to sailing, I sure wish I would have taken all those lost opportunities of not only sailing but the time I could have spent with my Dad.


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## bones92 (Apr 1, 2016)

I wouldn't despair too much... young people who are infatuated with their electronic devices may learn that there is more to life than FB and snapchat (whatever that is). After all... I only finally got around to getting a sailboat last year... and I'm in my 40s. It's part of the maturation process. I suspect that older folks wagged their heads in disappointment when some of us were feeding quarters into arcade machines back in the 80s. I think we were lucky, as most of us didn't have these gadgets at home, and that (for me) a trip to the arcade was an infrequent luxury. Such distractions (obsessions) were not constantly at our fingertips.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Hard not to point out the irony of an old guy like me complaining about the next generation of sailors spending too much time on the internet whilst simultaneously posting to this thread.

Yep, a complicated old guy I am.:laugh


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## jwing (Jun 20, 2013)

I have owned at least one boat continuously since I graduated from college. My first boat was a sailboat, but I quickly tired of the maintenance tasks, expenses, and overall work it took to participate in sailing. Being young, I wanted less work and more excitement, and I wanted to hang out with young people, not old farts. So I got into whitewater canoeing and kayaking. Those boats are relatively inexpensive and require ZERO maintenance. The fun and excitement factors are HUGE. Related sports include backcountry skiing, climbing, mountain biking, surfing, kiteboarding. All have huge fun-to-maintenance ratios. All attract athletic, fun, free-spirited women. And none of those sports are having problems attracting young people.

Putzing around on sailboats is an old fart activity. And by old fart, I mean predominantly male. For a young guy looking to sow some oats, purchasing an old Catalina 22, or similar boat, is a very poor move. The sailboat marina is not a target-rich environment, especially with all those abandoned, decaying boats hanging onto the docks, giving the place the air of a cheap nursing home.

OTH, if a young guy has a good girlfriend, bareboat chartering in the Caribbean is awesome!


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

jwing said:


> I have owned at least one boat continuously since I graduated from college. My first boat was a sailboat, but I quickly tired of the maintenance tasks, expenses, and overall work it took to participate in sailing. Being young, I wanted less work and more excitement, and I wanted to hang out with young people, not old farts. So I got into whitewater canoeing and kayaking. Those boats are relatively inexpensive and require ZERO maintenance. The fun and excitement factors are HUGE. Related sports include backcountry skiing, climbing, mountain biking, surfing, kiteboarding. All have huge fun-to-maintenance ratios. All attract athletic, fun, free-spirited women. And none of those sports are having problems attracting young people.
> 
> Putzing around on sailboats is an old fart activity. And by old fart, I mean predominantly male. For a young guy looking to sow some oats, purchasing an old Catalina 22, or similar boat, is a very poor move. The sailboat marina is not a target-rich environment, especially with all those abandoned, decaying boats hanging onto the docks, giving the place the air of a cheap nursing home.
> 
> OTH, if a young guy has a good girlfriend, bareboat chartering in the Caribbean is awesome!


Jwing.... Awesome post and to the point of why the younger crowd are not lining up, crowding the marinas with enthusiastic feelings of being on some sailboat. You're correct that many younger people don't see the fulfillment we had when we were younger... There were no cellphones, internet, gaming systems, etc. that kept us away from the dock or marina... We simply had no choice other than motoring in some heap we either inherited from our parents or we work and saved hard to buy one... outside of this there wasn't anything but bike to our dad's boat and hangout on it. The only exciting thing we had on the weekends was getting a sail/fishing with dad... mom stayed home.

Today at my sailing club the members are all in their fifties/sixties and some that should not even own a boat at all... based on what I see. The rest are 2 young guys in their late 20's to early 30's and that's it! When the club has a regatta it's just the same old guys with their guests (also in their senior years) and it's a 1-2 hour thrill... they all come back to their slips.

Good points...


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

guitarguy56 said:


> Today at my sailing club the members are all in their fifties/sixties and *some that should not even own a boat at all.*..


Those are the people I'm counting on to sell me a boat, cheap, next year.


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## Skyeterrier (Feb 11, 2016)

jwing said:


> I have owned at least one boat continuously since I graduated from college. My first boat was a sailboat, but I quickly tired of the maintenance tasks, expenses, and overall work it took to participate in sailing. Being young, I wanted less work and more excitement, and I wanted to hang out with young people, not old farts. So I got into whitewater canoeing and kayaking. Those boats are relatively inexpensive and require ZERO maintenance. The fun and excitement factors are HUGE. Related sports include backcountry skiing, climbing, mountain biking, surfing, kiteboarding. All have huge fun-to-maintenance ratios. All attract athletic, fun, free-spirited women. And none of those sports are having problems attracting young people.
> 
> Putzing around on sailboats is an old fart activity. And by old fart, I mean predominantly male. For a young guy looking to sow some oats, purchasing an old Catalina 22, or similar boat, is a very poor move. The sailboat marina is not a target-rich environment, especially with all those abandoned, decaying boats hanging onto the docks, giving the place the air of a cheap nursing home.
> 
> OTH, if a young guy has a good girlfriend, bareboat chartering in the Caribbean is awesome!


*runs sobbing from thread*
(it hurts because there is much truth in this post!) :wink


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

For all of this hand-wringing I am not sure that it is true that there are fewer people owning small sailboats, at least around here on the Chesapeake. I can't prove it, but here are my thoughts on this. 

Last year at the boat show, I had a conversation with DNR representative who said that there has been a steady increase in the number of sailboats being registered in recent years. BoatUS claims that they have seen an increase in members with sailboats as well in our area. 

While I had come to believe that only us gray hairs were out there racing, I have been encouraged to see a lot more younger people out racing as well. Whole one design classes (like the J-22 and Comet) seem to have been revived by young people buying them cheaply. I was at a Comet regatta last summer and was surprised at all of the 20 somethings that were racing these old boats. 

I like to kayak around the anchorages when I am cruising and increasingly I am seeing smaller older boats out there weekending, and often there are 20-30 year olds on these older boats because they can and do get bought cheaply.

As long as I can remember, and that goes back to the early 1960's, there have been a large number of boats which rarely left their slips. Maybe that is more true today, but it does not seem to be as true as it was 5-8 years ago. 

Jeff


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## RooDog (Oct 5, 2015)

I am in this middle demographic of 30-45 yr olds who are rediscovering sailing. My club in SoCal has many boats to choose from. I am slowly building time and confidence, racing and renting twice a month on average. Right now, it's more cost effective to rent, but I like to look at it as test driving for the one day where my wife says "we should just buy our own boat..."


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Like many people I am pretty glued to the Internet. Good and consistent Internet connectivity aboard, including underway, is not as expensive as it once was. On a recent delivery we had pretty good Internet out nearly 10 miles.

I have a customizable "kit" for WiFi, cell, and satellite that will work anywhere in the world.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

RooDog said:


> I am in this middle demographic of 30-45 yr olds who are rediscovering sailing. My club in SoCal has many boats to choose from. I am slowly building time and confidence, racing and renting twice a month on average. Right now, it's more cost effective to rent, but I like to look at it as test driving for the one day where my wife says "we should just buy our own boat..."


If you are just going out twice a month, and don't have interest in going on longer trips, it is likely much more affordable to belong to a club. No maintenance, get a variety of boats, sounds ideal! Now if you want to go out cruising on a boat for a couple of weeks at a time, and go out almost every weekend it starts to make more sense to buy. You get to set it up they way you want, with the toys you want, but then you miss out on the variety and the freedom to not worry about maintenance.


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## RooDog (Oct 5, 2015)

You just described my long-term plan.  

I've owned 2 powerboats over the last 20 years. We all know the old mantra "the happiest day of your life is the day you buy your boat... and the day you sell your boat"  Started sailing seriously last year and am thoroughly obsessed. Right now, club chartering is a perfect fit for my lifestyle.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

yes but does he have the time or money to go cruising by owning. I would make a strong argument that if you are going to cruise for only two weeks--it is more cost effective to charter. If you are going to engage in the life style and spend a significant amount of time on the boat on a regular basis, then it pays to own a cruising boat.



miatapaul said:


> If you are just going out twice a month, and don't have interest in going on longer trips, it is likely much more affordable to belong to a club. No maintenance, get a variety of boats, sounds ideal! Now if you want to go out cruising on a boat for a couple of weeks at a time, and go out almost every weekend it starts to make more sense to buy. You get to set it up they way you want, with the toys you want, but then you miss out on the variety and the freedom to not worry about maintenance.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

capecodda said:


> The train maybe leaving the station, but IMHO we could all contribute to turning this situation for the better. Here's some ideas:
> 
> 1. Don't make it elitist, because it isn't. Don't show off that you know the name of every line from the barber hauler to the cunningham. Make it sound easy, because it mostly is. Many of us, including myself need to get off the "my boat is better than yours train." Who cares, go sailing.
> 
> ...


Boy I get this one, most days I feel like the frog. I guess that's a step up from the Pac Man machine I used to live in.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Very interesting thread. Personally I believe we (Boomers) were fortunate to live through the heyday of recreational sailing, there was enough money and inexpensive plastic Boats around where we could all enjoy our disposable income in this great pastime. I hope there are always enough interested people who can afford the sport but it just wont be the same going forward, as the new boat decline backs up into fewer affordable used examples the sport will suffer. Of course Jeff's comments are encouraging and while there will always be pockets of support there are trends that are hard to buck.
I'm doing as much as I can with my three generation racing crew, and I navigated the entire 120 mile maiden delivery voyage on my current vessel using only the GPS program on my smartphone. They do have practical uses. Get some apps, Sailflow, Navionics,
to mention a few.


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## pdxskipper (Sep 9, 2014)

albrazzi said:


> Very interesting thread. Personally I believe we (Boomers) were fortunate to live through the heyday of recreational sailing, there was enough money and inexpensive plastic Boats around where we could all enjoy our disposable income in this great pastime. I hope there are always enough interested people who can afford the sport but *it just wont be the same going forward*, as the new boat decline backs up into fewer affordable used examples the sport will suffer. Of course Jeff's comments are encouraging and while there will always be pockets of support there are trends that are hard to buck.
> I'm doing as much as I can with my three generation racing crew, and I navigated the entire 120 mile maiden delivery voyage on my current vessel using only the GPS program on my smartphone. They do have practical uses. Get some apps, Sailflow, Navionics,
> to mention a few.


I agree, long term there will only be a decline overall. It's the same with general aviation.

When I started flying in the mid-eighties most airport ramps were at least half full. Now most are slim to empty and we're losing small airports at an alarming rate. And like boats, no one's building new certified aircraft that the average American can afford anymore. :|


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Yesterday a friend came in from passage. We were in the yard bottom painting so there to meet him and his bride. They bought a used 57' cf halvies with another couple. Took a sabbatical for a year and sailed down to carribean for the winter and double handed her back by way of Bahamas. They are in their early 40s.
Leaving now to go back to yard and finish up. Will meet another couple due for landfall as I write this. They took early retirement. Sold the house. Rented an apartment and a storage unit. Their boat was the one bride and I sea trialed before we built ours. They have done the sdr thing for the last three years. Late 50s/early 60s. 
We are selling house and will be full time on boat come November if the creek don't rise. Early 60s/mid 60s.
There will be a segment who hits their bs quotient and either sabbaticals or early retires. Saw a lot of sabbaticals in 30-40s last year in the islands. They don't buy motorboats as need to go real big and real expensive if you want to full time cruise. They do and will continue to get sailboats.
It may be a niche market but that niche will persist. Given volume decreases costs I do everything I can to encourage others to join that oddball niche. Landlubber dock walkers get a boat tour. Anyone in the marina who seems reasonable get invited for a day sail. Select few get a weekend to block.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

oldragbaggers said:


> I agree with the poster who said that the type of sailing that is affordable is not being promoted. Even learning to sail has become a very expensive proposition. In my area a basic keelboat class runs $700. If you want to take the whole series of classes you can expect to rack up a bill in the $thousands$.
> 
> The financing situation makes it difficult too. Banks will no longer finance a sailboat that is over 20 years old even though there are plenty of boats out there much older than that that are still very fine and capable boats, until they aren't. So you've got a really nice older (over 20 years) 35' boat and you put it up for sale because you can no longer use it, have health issues, inherited it, whatever the case, and it doesn't sell because no one comes along that has cash for it and it's not eligible for financing. It sits, it deteriorates. The owner has lost interest, or maybe whatever condition is compelling him to sell is also preventing him from using and maintaining the boat. But it can't pass into the hands of someone who could use it because those young people who might want to have that nice old boat as a family boat (because they sure can't afford a new one at $150K+ for the average 30 footer) don't have the funds to pay cash and can't get a loan. The boat is pretty much doomed at that point, and even if it started out in good condition it will become a derelict in short order. If only boat lending was based strictly on boat condition, equipment, and survey value rather than on age....


You made some good points, but I think you left out one of the most obvious boat killers - marina costs! A 35 foot boat, $125/ ft dock cost and half again for storage and you are close to $7k per year that never ends and just goes up. That's your boat killer and why so few would take on an old boat, because the storage and dockage for a $10,000 35 ft boat are exactly the same as for a $150,000 35 ft boat.

I don't see a ready solution. Maybe tax breaks for marinas that keep cost down for locals. Not sure if the public would support that - maybe combined with legislation that requires cheap public access to the water. Or buying the development rights, like they do with farms. Just spit balling... However, as long as someone is willing to pay the $7k, plenty of marinas will just cut up or crush old boats and move new ones in.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Bingo!!!



albrazzi said:


> very interesting thread. Personally i believe we (boomers) were fortunate to live through the heyday of recreational sailing, there was enough money and inexpensive plastic boats around where we could all enjoy our disposable income in this great pastime. I hope there are always enough interested people who can afford the sport but it just wont be the same going forward, as the new boat decline backs up into fewer affordable used examples the sport will suffer. Of course jeff's comments are encouraging and while there will always be pockets of support there are trends that are hard to buck.
> I'm doing as much as i can with my three generation racing crew, and i navigated the entire 120 mile maiden delivery voyage on my current vessel using only the gps program on my smartphone. They do have practical uses. Get some apps, sailflow, navionics,
> to mention a few.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

I personally don't think it's cost as such. It's attitude with young people. Can't be seen with last years Iphone, no way they will be seen with an affordable 30 year old boat. If it's not a brand new 2016 whatever they aren't interested.
I know a girl in her 30's who serves coffee for a living but has brand new Iphones, Ipads and an Apple laptop attached to herself 24/7, add that up it's more than I paid for my boat. The plans for all those devices in Canada cost more than my mooring and winter storage put together.
Not to mention the thousands in tattoos that she has covered herself in.........
It's all about how young people are perceived by their "friends" now. Gotta keep up with the kardasions on the Starbucks paycheck!


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Tanski said:


> I personally don't think it's cost as such. It's attitude with young people. Can't be seen with last years Iphone, no way they will be seen with an affordable 30 year old boat. If it's not a brand new 2016 whatever they aren't interested.
> I know a girl in her 30's who serves coffee for a living but has brand new Iphones, Ipads and an Apple laptop attached to herself 24/7, add that up it's more than I paid for my boat. The plans for all those devices in Canada cost more than my mooring and winter storage put together.
> Not to mention the thousands in tattoos that she has covered herself in.........
> It's all about how young people are perceived by their "friends" now. Gotta keep up with the kardasions on the Starbucks paycheck!


Interesting all these things were invented that we don't "need" but are so appealing we "have to" have them. Pretty damn smart industry if you ask me. Add all the cable, internet, and phone service not to mention the devices, and there's a Boat right there if you choose. My 17 YO who sails with me regularly doesn't have a smart phone and doesn't even care she just not typical anymore.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

The girls next door to us ( 10, 12 years old ) can't ride their pedal bikes because after 100 feet they are just stopped standing over their bikes texting. So that addiction will take a ton of people off the water right there in the next 20 years. Unfortunately - as they demonstrate - it won't take them off the road.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

One reason sailing may be stronger in some areas than others - public access to the water. We're lucky here on the coast of Maine to have lot's of public water access. A large part is due to our fishing industry and heritage. Fishermen and their towns realized early on they needed water access to work and live.

The coast of Mass. is another great example of fine public water access.

While many coastal municipalities sold their water assets (for a pittance) long ago, all is not lost.

My daughter lives in Brooklyn and works in Manhattan. On her walk to the train today, she sent me these photos of the Brooklyn waterfront.

There is new sailing activity along the NYC waterfront. This whole Brooklyn waterfront (if I recall correctly), was privately owned until just a decade or so ago. It was nasty, industrial.

Brooklyn bought it back and turned industrial waterfront into parks. And there is new energy in community sailing programs for anyone interested, and the interest is there!

Another 'new' promoter is sailboat racing. Global these days, racing sailboats are attracting people to the sport. I assume these are a few of AC boats that raced in the harbor this week.

I'm of the opinion that many young people today are attracted to the speed side of sailing. And sailing always draws due to it's unique mode of travel.

On the other hand, I don't think 'cruising' on a sailboat has as much interest with young people as it did on the boomers.

But sailing is holding it's own.










And look at this! A new publicly owned marina, in Brooklyn NY, right across the river from Manhattan.










I'd say, sailing is on the increase in Maine - and Manhattan.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

The real ironic part of this is it's the generation bemoaning the "death of sailing" that for the most part created the generation who don't sail and can't live without their phones and what not!
What did you people do wrong?!? Not may fault - no kids! LOL ;-) Cheers


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Mount 3D gopro on deck. A variety of sailing conditions on an ap to be used at leisure by those stunned enough to not know from reality. Go cruising with the profits from sale of ap.


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## VF84Sluggo (Jan 1, 2015)

There's a well-known person on this site that has been documenting the trouble, and huge expense, he's had and incurred since having some work done on his boat in preparation for a big sailing trip. When I read stuff like this, it scares the dickens out of me as far as wanting to own a sailboat again.

Sure, I can hear it now, "if you can't handle (fill in the blank) unexpected expenses, then you have no business owning a sailboat." You know what? I have to agree. And perhaps this is why you now see so many derelict slip queens: some unexpected HUGE expense to repair a break-down happened, and then it's the end for that owner. And with the boat needing that huge $$$$$ repair, there are no buyers interested. So she sits and rots, and maybe sinks.

I found out that for me, I can buy a sailboat; I just can't afford one. There is a difference.


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## bones92 (Apr 1, 2016)

Sluggo, I think you're spot-on. This is particularly the case for larger boats that end up sitting idle in the water. Small problems become big problems that go unnoticed because, well, we don't have enough time to spend with the boat. The general increase in the cost of everything means a boat repair shop has to charge big bucks to stay in business (or to make the owner independently wealthy, in some cases).

But, I think there is still a good potential in the trailer-sailor class of boats. Getting a boat out of the water is not only cheaper to store, but also greatly enhances the life of the boat (so long as it's properly covered and stored). (Speaking of which, it's amazing how many boats get parked somewhere without the benefit of a $25 tarp. )


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## bps (Feb 9, 2016)

It's not just sailing experiencing some of these trends. I'm 60, and looking at buying my first keelboat. However, I've had power boats and airplanes in the past. We've always noticed that most of the boats at our marina rarely or never went out. There was a small few who were out frequently. Last boat was a pontoon, and many of the dock queens were cruisers, so we just figured the cost to run those was just too expensive for many.

Airplanes seem to be very similar to what many are seeing with sailboats. Lots of older planes for sale, as most cannot afford anything new. And even if you could, you might not want to as you'd lose so much money initially. I was more into experimental aircraft as those were more affordable. However, you can buy a completed, flying aircraft for less than a kit, engine, and costs for the panel, so many would shy away from building anything. A friend of mine was just lamenting the lack of any activity at my old airport. Ten years ago, there were many of us that flew several times a week. Just don't see that much now. 

I'm still debating the sailboat thing as the boats I can afford are older, and it seems most need some work. Don't see much activity with new boats as the price is out of range for most. I don't see a lot of movement in the used boat market. That really makes it a buyers market, but also means that if I want to sell, it will probably take quite a while. Not sure I want to get in that boat (maybe pun intended?). 

I do ride motorcycles, and that market seems to be coming back (many dealers had gone out of business due to the slow market). However, I can park a motorcycle in garage, without slip or hangar fees.


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## VF84Sluggo (Jan 1, 2015)

Bones, that's exactly it! The larger boats get tough on the wallet. A neighbor with a 39' Beneteau is in that exact jam. The little things piled up and piled up, then he got hit with some big stuff, and it's over. Sad.

Agree, the 27' and smaller trailer class does seem to have good activity. Getting it out of constant salt water contact is a huge benefit. Makes it easier to work on things, keep the bottom clean, etc. Yep, the trailering adds a bit of hassle, but at the sailing marina I use the storage area and the boat launch are all right there...easy.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

I go to a few different boat shows on a fairly regular basis: Newport, Miami and Hartford. Sailboats are in separate areas of the Newport and Miami shows, so I don't see any powerboats or their crowds there. But Hartford is a much smaller, indoor show where the powerboats and sailboats (what few there are) are shown together. And the contrasts in the crowds at each couldn't be more stark. 

At Newport and the Strictly Sail Miami shows, I see lots of middle-aged to older people; lots of couples in their 40's, 50's and older. The occasional couple in their 30's, and very rarely, in their twenties. God help the attractive woman in her twenties who wanders into a sailboat show; she will be ogled as much as the Friendship Yachts. Almost no children. 

At the Hartford show, the complete opposite: While the majority of attendees were men, they were mostly in their 20's or 30's. And lots, I mean lots, of young families. 

It's been this way as long as I can remember. Back in the day when I lived in NYC, I would go to the NY Boat show. The powerboats were separated from the sailboats there, and the powerboat "side" was at least three times the size of the sailboat side. Back then (when I was in my 20's), I had other things on my mind too. I'd go on all of the sailboats and dream, but then I'd head over to the powerboats. They had models in bikinis aboard many of them doing that car show-kind of come-hither thing. Yeah, it worked. The women on the sailboats looked like they stepped out of an LL Bean catalogue; the women on the powerboats looked like they just got off shift at Hooters. No contest. Message received: chicks in bikinis dig guys with powerboats.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Many years ago, I manned a booth at the New York National Boat Show for the Fisherman Magazine in the Jacob Javits Center. It was a zoo on the powerboat side, while the sailboat side had a few visitors - there was always a stark difference between the two areas of the show. Same was true with Miami when I worked that show.

Cheers,

Gary


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Face it- sailing is harder than turning a key. Those of us that know the joys of sailing vastly prefer it, but sailboats are more expensive to get in to for a given length and sailing with kids requires more caretakers. 'Driving' a powerboat you can pay attention to the kids while making sure you don't hit anything. Harder to trim sails and keep junior out of the drink at the same time, especially with heeling. You're always going to have more people attracted to easy than hard, but most things worth doing aren't easy.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

mstern said:


> I go to a few different boat shows on a fairly regular basis: Newport, Miami and Hartford. Sailboats are in separate areas of the Newport and Miami shows, so I don't see any powerboats or their crowds there. But Hartford is a much smaller, indoor show where the powerboats and sailboats (what few there are) are shown together. And the contrasts in the crowds at each couldn't be more stark.
> 
> At Newport and the Strictly Sail Miami shows, I see lots of middle-aged to older people; lots of couples in their 40's, 50's and older. The occasional couple in their 30's, and very rarely, in their twenties. God help the attractive woman in her twenties who wanders into a sailboat show; she will be ogled as much as the Friendship Yachts. Almost no children.
> 
> ...


Well said... you won't see this fun at our sailing club or regattas I've attended!






No wonder... the young crowd, families, oh and the bikinis everywhere! There isn't any seniors in 50-60's in bikinis seen in any of this...


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

The other thing that seems to be true is that people that buy powerboats are much more likely to buy new. New sailboats are a niche within a niche, which is also part of the reason you see both the marketing and the crowds at the shows being what they are.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Neat video, Guitarguy. The part I enjoyed the best was the shot of Faro Blanco Resort, where I played music every Friday night last winter while I was in Marathon. It's an incredible resort, pretty expensive though, and owned by Hyatt Place. They also own the old Boot Key Marina, which they are in the process of resurrecting as soon as the building permits are approved, which is a long, slow process in the keys. 

Thanks for posting,

Gary


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## cshrimpt (Jun 8, 2015)

Sailing in general is a dying sport. Primarily because it is a family sport and families no longer do recreational activities together. It's the whole "soccer mom" thing. Instead of everyone going down to the marina to day sail their 22 ft sloop, the boys head off to soccer practice and the girls go to ballet (or soccer). Dad heads off to the links and mom goes to the mall.

Sports like sailing, camping, and hunting, which are traditionally family activities, are all dying.

Shrimp


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## eko_eko (Sep 7, 2012)

I'm usually the youngest adult at the sailing meetups or club events I attend. I wish there were more folks my age involved. It would make it easier for me to involve my wife and kids. We're in our thirties with toddlers.

I look at people just a few years my junior and can't relate to their priorities. The people posting about the generation a half step behind me are not wrong.

People I know who are about my age usually can't afford a home or a boat, but they all drive cars newer than ours and have fancier phones. They also don't want to hang out with people their parents' ages all the time and look at me funny for doing it.

But that's not the whole problem.

Some sailing groups I've visited are like singles bars for divorced people nearly twice my age. That's not appealing to me or my friends.

Sailing clubs with no young members need to recast themselves if they don't want to shrink into oblivion. It's a two-way street.


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

I own a sailboat and I feel fine...

Thanks for asking


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

In addition to the other good points here, there is a major change in time consumption these days. It used to be, you sat down with the fellas at the bar and heard the entire story of their voyage, or broken motor, or whatever, in 15 minutes over a beer. Now you get multiple 25 min YouTube vids, released weekly that leave you hanging, like it was some sort of soap opera. People like sitting on their a$$. The producers now want to make money (patreon) telling it to you.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

The more things change the more they remain the same. 

Been into boats since my teens. All boats. 

Sociology seems: folks in the trades- contractors, plumbers, electricians etc.- have decent money. Go out and get a center console and have at it.
Lawyers, traders, sales and real estate types etc. have bigger money and need a platform to entertain clients so out and get a sport fish.
If teachers, doctors, and other "brain" workers get a motorboat it will be a flats boat to fly fish or small semi displacement hull.
Picnic boats have changed things but that's a small segment of ultra rich as are the motor yachts over 50'. Trawlers remain family boats or for the gramps. Cross over is not common except for sailors who get one to many joint replacement.

Used to be feeder to keel boats was sailing skiffs or hobies - 12 1/2, optimists, bull eyes, shields etc. Now feeder is wind surfers, kite boards, moths etc. See this type of sailing everywhere and it's a very active passionate crowd of 20 to 30 somethings. Some move to triple digit J boats some stay with stuff that can go on the roof of a car or a light trailer behind it. But many get it into their heads to try a keel boat. Some its desire to do a passage and check that off their to do list. See this on the crew lists and from folks walking up to me. Some via vacationing on a charter. But it puts the bug in their ear. Think back on your life. There was a golden moment you got infected with the disease of sailing. A point where you realized this activity would take precedence over others to the pain of your comfort or wallet. Take heart. People are still being infected.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Faster said:


> I... All the same, the technology is amazing and enables good things too.
> ...


Yes. Like me being able to work from my boat should I choose to. Last summer after having to get on a conference call sitting on the finger pier I invested in a wifi signal booster so that when it rains I can go below rather than sit in our marina's sub-zero guest lounge to work.

We don't have TV on our boat but being able to be this flexible with a laptop sure is nice.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Donna_F said:


> Yes. Like me being able to work from my boat should I choose to. Last summer after having to get on a conference call sitting on the finger pier I invested in a wifi signal booster so that when it rains I can go below rather than sit in our marina's sub-zero guest lounge to work.
> 
> We don't have TV on our boat but being able to be this flexible with a laptop sure is nice.


I certainly appreciate technology being applied to sailing in "proper" ways. Yeah I know, who am I to define what's "proper?" I get to make the definition on my boat, I'm not trying to define it for others.

I appreciate modern synthetics technology for rigging, sails and deck hardware. I appreciate less expensive, more powerful, more compact communications and navigation equipment. I appreciate the leaps in power efficiency for things such as lighting and refrigeration. I also appreciate the leaps in power generation efficiency, such as with powerful tow-behind generators, flexible solar panels and maybe better wind generators. I appreciate advancements in chemistry that give me a clean hull without polluting the environment.

The technology I do *not* want or need on my boat, are "heads-up" displays being projected onto my retina along with a constant stream of email, phone calls and Facebook posts. I don't really feel a burning need for the ability to watch TV or movies, especially underway and almost never at anchor. These are the technologies of the "chattering class" which are generally used to keep people tethered and under control by keeping them occupied with trivialities. A boat is how you break that bond.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

guitarguy56 said:


> Well said... you won't see this fun at our sailing club or regattas I've attended!
> 
> 23rd Annual Key West Poker Run Florida Powerboat Club 2015 - YouTube
> 
> No wonder... the young crowd, families, oh and the bikinis everywhere! There isn't any seniors in 50-60's in bikinis seen in any of this...


I was in Ft. Lauderdale with the family a few years ago, and we were near one of those bulkheads on a canal when a 60 ft Sundancer express boat came in to dock. I was impressed with the skipper's docking ability, but what really caught my (and my 17 year old son's) eye was the deck fluff: two spectacular looking, bikini-clad young women. My son commented on the apparent mis-match between the women and the obviously middle-aged men on the boat. Gave me a chance to impart some nautical wisdom to my heir: "Son, there are always women like that on boats like that."


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

mstern said:


> I was in Ft. Lauderdale with the family a few years ago, and we were near one of those bulkheads on a canal when a 60 ft Sundancer express boat came in to dock. I was impressed with the skipper's docking ability, but what really caught my (and my 17 year old son's) eye was the deck fluff: two spectacular looking, bikini-clad young women. My son commented on the apparent mis-match between the women and the obviously middle-aged men on the boat. Gave me a chance to impart some nautical wisdom to my heir: "Son, there are always women like that on boats like that."


Moral of this story: Son buy a powerboat and you too can enjoy THAT lifestyle!

More of what I see in my sailing club and those that I've seen sailing on boats in and around Puget Sound, here in Savannah, etc. the women look more like this on sailboats! There is no getting around this fact... I have seen young women but not many and mostly in areas of Florida or California when I was out at Seal Beach.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

outbound said:


> The more things change the more they remain the same.
> 
> Been into boats since my teens. All boats.
> 
> ...


Out, roger on the "Golden moments" spot-on with that observation. I have many and I won't bore the group with them, but we might have made a new one last night when my throttle cable gave up and I tied a string back to the helm and we went out anyway. I got the attention of the crew for sure.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Al good on you. Keep sailing. 

Btw- when the family females come out for fun they are fetching. 
Wouldn't trade a one for fools with plastic boobs in push up bras.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

Our wives, daughters, and friends are fetching too... no one is talking about trading spouses or daughters!

This is a conversation about what is perceived about sailboats vs powerboats and the reasons it is on decline and the people who use them... not about our spouses! 

But I bet you'll get more looks on a 20-25 yr old bombshell than a 60 yr old senior in a bikini!


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## funcrew (Sep 28, 2015)

Beautiful boat. What kind is it?



TomMaine said:


> I'm seeing an opposite trend. Boats are so cheap. Many of the kids that sailed when they were young, still do around here.
> 
> We bought our son a sail-away 26'er, for a dollar last fall(yeah it needs work...). He's looking forward to do a little coastal cruising when he gets home from school, mid summer. He has a friend with another 'dollar' boat (his dad paid some money, but it's only worth a dollar, trust me), that will join him. Those boats will be packed with kids that love to sail and be out on the water.
> 
> ...


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## ctl411 (Feb 15, 2009)

midwesterner said:


> I certainly hope that sailing is in decline. I'm hoping to buy my first cruising sailboat soon and I'm hoping that it continues to be a buyers' market.
> 
> There are fewer people in their 70s and 80s than my age group (60s) but I read a lot of ads saying that "owner has become too old to sail and mast sell." I'm hoping to buy one of those boats.
> 
> And I like that fantasy of marinas with empty slips and moorings.


I'm sorry to say but it is fantasy. Marinas sell out to condo builders. The water that hundreds used to enjoy is now for the few that buy a condo. Happened on the harbor we are on and many more I hear of. This is why as the decline of boats is real, slip fees still go up.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

The cheapest marina I know of on the east Coast of Florida is a pretty run down one off the Indian River near Titusville, they charge $8.00 per foot + utilities - another close by is $12 ft - but much nicer.

The math for a 25 ft sailboat - $8 x 25 = $200/month + tax + $50 month for utilities = about $275/month just for the slip, my current boat was purchased on EBAY for $2,000 ( in good shape with about $2500 worth of equipment )Cape Dory 25. In 8 months will have paid more for the slip rental than the boat. Again this is at a pretty crappy marina with not the nicest of facilities - if I would keep it at the other marina - nice with a pool, they have a 30 ft minimum, 30x12+tax =$50 = $430/month

It just makes no financial sense to keep a small boat ( under 30ft ) in a slip, a larger boat that you you use as a condo when not sailing could make sense. 

Trying to justify the money spent on sailing is a fool's errand - but still with the above numbers it would scare a lot of people off. I have had much larger boats in the past ( Cal 36, Benford 34) but that was back when I could keep them on the St Johns for $5 ft.


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## funcrew (Sep 28, 2015)

duplicate post


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

funcrew said:


> Beautiful boat. What kind is it?


Thanks. 1961 Alden Challenger, Alden's first fiberglass hull and deck(the rest was built of wood).


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## funcrew (Sep 28, 2015)

TomMaine said:


> Thanks. 1961 Alden Challenger, Alden's first fiberglass hull and deck(the rest was built of wood).


Nice. I would be happy to have that as a move-up boat, much less my first one. Thanks for sharing.


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## DefianceNYC (Apr 25, 2016)

Yes. Both sailing and golf are like skiing. Expensive, hard to learn and difficult to access for most people. What both sailing and golf need is a "snowboarding" option for younger people to get excited about! That's what saved ski resorts and as a result saved skiing as an industry too.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Person who has dived my boat in the past to do zincs works ski/snowboard industry with diving as a side line. Tells me that industry is in serious do do but particularly boarding. He used to sell 50/50 but now boarding is uncool so it's more like 20/80 with skiing on top. Sees kids skied in past due to 'rents, rebelled and went to boards. Now back to skis due to greater control allowing off piste and greater speed on trails. 
SUPs are way up with kayaks, kite boards flat. Still have hope wind surfing and kite boards will be the new entry port for sailing.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

DefianceNYC said:


> Yes. Both sailing and golf are like skiing. Expensive, hard to learn and difficult to access for most people. What both sailing and golf need is a "snowboarding" option for younger people to get excited about! That's what saved ski resorts and as a result saved skiing as an industry too.


You make me realize, sailing and skiing are similar in that if you grew up doing either (or both), your kids are likely to do the same, and their kids, ...and so on.

A 19 year old boy just bought a C&C 27 right next to me in the yard. I know the kids family. He grew up spending a lot of time on the water with his family, in an old modest power cruiser.

He went through the local boat club sailing programs (420's, etc). He works and makes money and owns his own car. He paid $4500 for the boat.

This C&C 27 is a serious boat. It's in very good condition, sailaway, full electronics(even radar), ground tackle, sails(including spinnaker). A very capable coastal cruiser now in the hands of a capable 19 year old that knows the 'water'.

I've been watching he and several of his friends getting the boat ready to launch. This boat will take lots of kids sailing and will likely attract more. These 'kid boats' are not uncommon in my waters, now that I think about it.

Personally, I haven't seen the supposed (by some of the boomers), trend of millennials not interested in anything but an electronic device. The kids I know, and have 'grown up with', have at least as much desire to live the beautiful natural world around them, as my generation had.

I asked him where he'll keep the C&C and he said his family has a friend with a mooring he can use, for now. Local kid, they know the ropes.

A new sailboat owner, grew up 'poweboating', and he's 19.

Boards are still hot in Maine. Our family is 75% dark side on the slopes.


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## johnny buddha (Jan 12, 2016)

DefianceNYC said:


> What both sailing and golf need is a "snowboarding" option for younger people to get excited about!


I see the current incarnation of the America's Cup as something like "Sailing Meets the X-Games" - high speed, high risk, flashy... OTOH, the AC45s looked like NASCAR entries with all of the advertisers' logos on them.

We just watched last week's coverage of the Louis Vuitton series in NYC where there were thousands of people lined up along the banks of the Hudson watching the races. Having the event at that venue allowed people to watch without having to find a boat to go out on, meaning more people could see. The shorter courses and faster boats mean that watching it live or televised isn't as huge a commitment as a miles-long ocean course. I remember watching America's Cup coverage on ESPN in 1992 when they introduced Silicon Graphic' SailTrack technology to help explain to non-sailors what was going on, who was ahead, and what the courses sailed looked like - fascinating stuff to this (at the time non-) sailing geek.

In between the heats, NBCSN was showing stories of efforts in NYC to get kids involved in sailing through community sailing centers' STEM programs introducing kids to keelboats and the America's Cup Endeavour Program.

So will this lead to increased sailboat ownership? Dunno, but greater awareness and interest probably can't hurt.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

One of the (myriad) reasons we chose to move to Maine. Our kids grow up outdoors, with others that do as well. I grew up on Ontario, mostly outdoors, but the culture there seems to be shifting to indoors unless it involves an engine. Not so much here, although a solid number of snowmobiles and atvs


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

Some interesting perspectives between the boomers & younger crowd. 
Buying a boat is the easy part. As others have mentioned the marina/storage bills become a killer for most.
The one thing I haven't seen mentioned is what I refer to "jail without bars". I know we felt that way. Boat payment, insurance, marina, huge fuel bill, short season up here in New England, you feel compelled, obligated to go to the boat every weekend. Next thing you know summer is over. I think todays younger crowd doesn't want to get tied down with the additional responsibility of owning a boat. Most young folks today struggle with just owning a home. As a couple of folks mentioned, many young people are into kayaking, mountain biking, etc. Sports that are affordable, fun & leave you with the X game kind of battle scares you can compare with your friends. You don't go out for a couple of weekends, no big deal cause it didn't cost a zillion dollars to get into it.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

misfits said:


> Some interesting perspectives between the boomers & younger crowd.
> Buying a boat is the easy part. As others have mentioned the marina/storage bills become a killer for most.
> The one thing I haven't seen mentioned is what I refer to "jail without bars". I know we felt that way. Boat payment, insurance, marina, huge fuel bill, short season up here in New England, you feel compelled, obligated to go to the boat every weekend. Next thing you know summer is over. I think todays younger crowd doesn't want to get tied down with the additional responsibility of owning a boat. Most young folks today struggle with just owning a home. As a couple of folks mentioned, many young people are into kayaking, mountain biking, etc. Sports that are affordable, fun & leave you with the X game kind of battle scares you can compare with your friends. You don't go out for a couple of weekends, no big deal cause it didn't cost a zillion dollars to get into it.


That's a good point... Many here boast about their children always on the boat, bringing their friends to the boat, pictures and all. We all have photos of our children on the boat and we mention how these kids will be the future of sailing... what we don't consider is that these children are NOT footing the bill for the boat, cost of the marina, insurance, maintenance fees, fuel, food, etc... so in a way YEAH... these kids love being on the boat, now tell these kids they'll be footing the $500-1500 a year cost of insurance, the $300-800 a month slip fees, the cost of maintenance at $75-100/hr, fuel cost of $2.75-4.00 a gallon, bottom cleaning fees of $100-150 a month, etc... Ask them then if they'll jump on the bandwagon and own a boat (sailboat or powerboat)?

Not trashing sailing as I can afford it and have no issues but if I gave this endeavor to my son or daughter they'd say a big NO!

Daughter, son-in-law, grandson tying up at the dock for some restaurant food... son is piloting, I'm in the companionway. Wonderful time that day!


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

As a second generation skier and sailors, who also has four sea kayaks and two canoes hanging in his gear locker...err, garage, I can tell you if you grow up loving it, you'll find a way. Like an old boat on a mooring that costs a LOT less than those prices, and a pair of 100$ tele skis, used bindings and close out boots. It can and will be done if it's a priority. But I also don't have double d's in dental floss hanging on my bow. If that's a priority, then I'm sure I would do things differently.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

This thread got me to thinking about the cost of boating. My last big powerboat, monthly payment was 700+. Insurance ran about a 1000, a slip was 1500, winter storage was 800. I was single, lived on the boat during the season, rented an apartment for the winter. Once I got married & started a business the boat became the weekend refuge. Not taking fuel costs into account that works out to $975.00 per month & that was in 1980/1990 dollars. 

Fast foward to present, I own my sailboat but it still costs me close to $300.00 a month before maintenence, etc. Although many of use choose boating as a lifestyle, make no mistake about it, it is a rich persons form of recreation. Owning a boat is like throwing money into a hole in the water. Whoever said money can't buy you happiness has never owned a boat!


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

misfits said:


> Some interesting perspectives between the boomers & younger crowd.
> Buying a boat is the easy part. As others have mentioned the marina/storage bills become a killer for most.
> The one thing I haven't seen mentioned is what I refer to "jail without bars". I know we felt that way. Boat payment, insurance, marina, huge fuel bill, short season up here in New England, you feel compelled, obligated to go to the boat every weekend. Next thing you know summer is over. I think todays younger crowd doesn't want to get tied down with the additional responsibility of owning a boat. Most young folks today struggle with just owning a home. As a couple of folks mentioned, many young people are into kayaking, mountain biking, etc. Sports that are affordable, fun & leave you with the X game kind of battle scares you can compare with your friends. You don't go out for a couple of weekends, no big deal cause it didn't cost a zillion dollars to get into it.


Don't do much biking I take it?
My bike collection is worth about 3x the value of my boat. Clothing, tires etc are close to my summer mooring costs. Yes I mean bicycling! 
Last set of MTB tires I bought was over 250$ for tubes, rim tape and new rubber. I can blow 150$ on a single road bike tire and not be on top of the line tires!
I'm also not on top of the line carbon fibre bikes, nowhere near! 
I ride about 5 days a week.


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## dinosdad (Nov 19, 2010)

Tanski said:


> misfits said:
> 
> 
> > Some interesting perspectives between the boomers & younger crowd.
> ...


One big difference though( and it is much the same as when I was involved in the vintage car hobby, when your not using the bikes, or old cars, they sit "rent free" in your garage, shed, basement, etc.
With the cars I wouldn't care about going away on vacation and letting them sit, but as was touched on ,with a short season in New England every weekend you feel compelled to be on the boat . I've had many a good weekend drive with the old cars, or new sports cars in the November to April months . ( it does seem that the under thirty crowd doesn't have a lot of interest in the car hobby either, viewing the automobile as a appliance not unlike a toaster oven)


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

I still don't buy it, My boat is about 3500$, done and paid for. Sailing is probably my cheapest hobby. My mooring cost less than a data plan for a cell phone monthly.
As long as you are happy with the boat you have this can be a very cheap pass time. This is the most expensive boat I've owned in 30 years of boat ownership. It's not a beater by any stretch either. Very well maintained actually. I'm only the second owner.
I'm a single guy who isn't out to impress anybody, I'm a working, weekend warrior who is happy with a 25' boat he can weekend with the dogs. 
A bigger boat would be a waste and paying for mooring a boat I don't need is stupid.
Funny thing is back in the 70's and 80's boats people now consider too small for weekending were considered long term cruising boats.
My boat was marketed for a young family with 2 kids who want a racer/cruiser.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

One thing not mentioned - so many kids come out of college with huge debt loads - that is very different from when I graduated from college in the 80's - they need to find a good paying job just to repay the college loans - not much extra dinero for a boat


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

cdy said:


> One thing not mentioned - so many kids come out of college with huge debt loads - that is very different from when I graduated from college in the 80's - they need to find a good paying job just to repay the college loans - not much extra dinero for a boat


This is very true... My son is at Mercer Med School... no time to take on anything related to costs of keeping a boat although I had one for him (US Yacht 25) but he did not want it so I sold it several years ago... My daughter is now assistant CFO of a company and makes excellent money and her husband is regional sales manager of a company and he too makes a great salary but their eyes are not on owning a boat or the costs of keeping one... their eyes are focused on the home, private school for my grandson, and in Atlanta not much in the way of sailing except Lake Lanier, much of the slips are full and even if they had the money to support this hobby they wouldn't go into it. So in essence 'we' go sailing because I foot all the cost... absent of this there would be no sailing in our family. Simple for some and for others it's expensive, others may find a way to keep the costs extremely low on smallish boats, but any sizable sailboat/powerboat will cost $$$ to keep.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

Tanski - used to be people would start with a 22 - 25 ft and work up - now it seems many start with a boat 35 + feet.
But you need a big boat to carry all the things you need nowadays - washer, full size fridge, AC, radar, head with full shower and on and on. I see these reviews of boats that have all the amenities a home has - and I think - I got problems with a lot of systems in my house - and it doesn't float or travel. What do these people do when the trash compactor craps out in Grenada?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

cdy said:


> Tanski - used to be people would start with a 22 - 25 ft and work up - now it seems many start with a boat 35 + feet.
> ......What do these people do when the trash compactor craps out in Grenada?


Whatever the sales are for these 'new' $300K+ boats I'm willing to bet that very few of them are cruising the Caribbean chain or beyond. In fact, I'm willing to bet the majority of the boats in that circuit will be from Europe and most relatively modest - and without washers, dishwashers, AC and/or trash compactors. (Amels aside )

Serious world/distance cruisers are, for the most part, a much hardier and self-sufficient bunch than that.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Was one of the work your way up in size crowd. Put in the sweat equity. Go shares on a race boat and halvies on the cruising boat which was no hardship in terms of actual use. Did this with other docs and arranged call schedules so each had no boat when on call and a boat when not on call. Also two heads and four hands made maintenance easier and a fun social occasion. You could trade vacation weeks or weekends to meet needs of family and not miss the key game or swim meet of your kids. You had a A and B crew for the race boat and swapped inside that program as well. Both A and B crews had alternates. Now have racing programs and possibly less single owners compaigning a boat then even back then. 

See this replicated in boat sharing programs in many cities now for casual day sailing or cruising. But without the maintenance time and time is the killer for many. Also think more people charter and less own nowadays than in the past. Personally don't care - they are still sailors. They probably end up sailing as much without being owned by their possessions so maybe not so dumb. Maybe an attitude shift just like with cars. Ownership not involved in the goal just use. More folks car share or rent when needed. Same gestalt.

Do think the market is more stratified. Sport boats, day boats, coastal boats, cruisers, voyagers, high lat. boats. Less jack of all trades master of none. Don't think this is all about money as you can get a state of the art wood/epoxy or cf sport boat with one multiples in cost of the other. Both are wicked fun but both answer the use needs of the same niche. 

Along with different folks- different boats maybe should add different lifestyles different ways to get on the water. So if looking at numbers of new and old boats purchased per year would not be surprised if this statistic may mislead you. Same with looking at density in marinas and mooring fields. With community racing and sailing programs as well as a good charter market number of actual sailors may not correlate to number of boats.


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## LoboPops (Jul 28, 2012)

I think several of our clubs have a good solution for introducing new people to sailing. One (GBCA) has races on the weekends with some lasting several days, CLRA has races on Wednesday nights with a crowd able to watch from a local restaurant. CLSC has training 3 or 4 times during the summer with races on some weekends but the training is on sunfish or like boats to give good fundamental training.


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## ultraclyde (Jun 4, 2014)

Tanski said:


> Don't do much biking I take it?
> My bike collection is worth about 3x the value of my boat. Clothing, tires etc are close to my summer mooring costs. Yes I mean bicycling!
> Last set of MTB tires I bought was over 250$ for tubes, rim tape and new rubber. I can blow 150$ on a single road bike tire and not be on top of the line tires!
> I'm also not on top of the line carbon fibre bikes, nowhere near!
> I ride about 5 days a week.


Same here. Right now I'm still in the little boat stage but we're talking seriously about going up to a 25' cruiser next year. Even then the boat will just barely out price my bikes.

We're an 60 miles from any sailable waters, and 200 miles from the coast, so anything we get will be trailerable - for transportablity and to keep storage and maintenance cost down.

The biggest thing I've found that keeps me from sailing is time commitments to other things, and we don't have kids. Getting in to sailing in our area is hard because no one sails here. The lakes are small for the most part, and so access to and time on the water isn't something that a lot of people have. Since I bought my little boat three years ago I guarantee I've been out on the water more than the total of my life up to that point.


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## svGabriel (Jul 3, 2012)

I would say the biggest factor by far in the keeping the younger generation (of which I am a part) out of sailing is a general lack of exposure followed next by money (or lack thereof). Yes I always have the latest and greatest smartphone, and yes it is rarely out of reach and yes my attention span is probably short but none of that turned me off of sailing. I had no opinion of sailing because it wasn't even on my radar. My friends and I were into mainstream sports (football mostly) and extreme sports (snowboarding, skateboarding, etc.) because you turn on the TV and that's what you see. I've never been flipping channels and come across anything sailing related. I didn't know sailing was an Olympic sport for the longest time because it gets little if any coverage on the main TV networks. At least not heavily advertised coverage, so its hard to find if you're not looking for it. I came to Norfolk, VA for a summer internship when I started graduate school and I was hanging out at the beach one Wednesday night and I saw a bunch of sailboats out doing a beer can race. I was immediately interested. I had gotten past the lack of exposure barrier, but still faced the money barrier. My wife and I each had $30k in loans from school (and that's from a state school and we both worked enough to pay for housing while in school!). Starting life $60K in the hole is not conducive to getting into sailing, but I was determined to try it out. I got hired and moved here permanently and used my first check to buy a $2500 25ft Irwin when I was 26. Now at 30, I just bought a Pearson 33 (and realized I was rather short sighted when picking a sailnet user name). I've replaced the standing rigging and painted the topsides and bottom and am finally ready to take her for a spin!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

She's a pretty thing. Be careful you might have the bug for the rest of your life.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

svGabriel said:


> .....Now at 30, I just bought a Pearson 33 (and realized I was rather short sighted when picking a sailnet user name). ....


She looks great!.. Have a great season.

PM me with a new user id preference if you like, we can change it for you.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

svGabriel said:


> .....I didn't know sailing was an Olympic sport for the longest time because it gets little if any coverage on the main TV networks......


If you haven't seen this, it's a classic.


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## Osprey 26 (Jun 28, 2013)

Not sure what kind of question OP is asking. When I was sailing back to marina there was sailboat in front of me and there was one sailing behind me. Almost like in some kind of movie.


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## arknoah (Oct 31, 2010)

Donna_F said:


> I don't see it as the case on the Chesapeake where I boat. Even in winter there are boats sailing. Quite a few hardy folks who are members of this forum enjoy bay day sailing in the winter.


I agree with Donna. Not only are we out in all kinds of crazy weather, we're also out in smaller and larger boats alike.


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## LLCoolDave (Sep 20, 2015)

I think that digital media about sailing will help. Maybe a year and a half ago I saw the documentary Maiden Trip on Netflix. I thought "Holy ****, I want to do that." A while later I was on meetup.com and my local yacht club (which I didn't know existed) offered a beginner's course for $75. I jumped on it. I found sv Delos and La Vagabond, etc along the way. A year later I'm just about to embark on my first crew position. Sailing for a month and getting some blue water experience. 

Note: I'm a 33yo old male, never married, no wife, kids, or debt. That makes it easier but we all have to live with our choices.


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## ohdrinkboy (Dec 27, 2013)

I live on a large (600 miles of shoreline) lake. 157 homes in my neighborhood that has it's own marina. Lots of young families. 4 sailboats in our marina. All owned by people over 50. They young families all have pontoons, ski boats, bowriders. They have no interest in sailing.


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## Skyeterrier (Feb 11, 2016)

LLCoolDave said:


> I think that digital media about sailing will help. Maybe a year and a half ago I saw the documentary Maiden Trip on Netflix. I thought "Holy ****, I want to do that."


Honestly, I think ANY media exposure would help. Even as someone who loves sailing and has been a boat owner for a couple of decades now, I feel like sailing has almost zero public profile in American life (can't speak to other countries). Even with major events like America's Cup I feel like you almost have to look to find the coverage or articles. The activity just doesn't register for most people. Even people like me who are attuned to stories or shows/movies involving sailing, I feel one rarely sees anything in the media good or bad.

I saw Maidentrip on Netflix too and it really helped rekindle a dormant interest in sailing for me, right around the time I got my current boat. It's funny because I remember hearing about Dekker and her circumnavigation and the controversy over it before she'd done it, and thinking "this is the stupidest stunt ever" and assuming she was getting pushed by fame whore "type A sports Dad" parents.

Watching the film gave me much more a sense of the person, her family and her background and philosophy with respect to sailing and it gave me a lot more respect and appreciation for her and what she did. Even though it's still crazy, as any solo circumnav kind of is whether it's done by a 14 year old or a 40 year old.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Maybe we need some heroes. French sure have a bunch. Sailing followed by non racers and even with the big races by non sailors.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> Maybe we need some heroes. French sure have a bunch. Sailing followed by non racers and even with the big races by non sailors.


Like the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria, all of our ancestors sailed here, then gave up the sport and stayed.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

I'm in my 30s and sometimes get quizzical looks from friends when I mention that we own a sailboat. I'm pretty sure that many people my age associate sailing with the traditional yacht club image which is not exactly alluring to my generation.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

caberg said:


> I'm in my 30s and sometimes get quizzical looks from friends when I mention that we own a sailboat. I'm pretty sure that many people my age associate sailing with the traditional yacht club image which is not exactly alluring to my generation.


As wth everything, it depends. It depends on where you live. It depends on whom you associate with. It depends on your income bracket. When I lived on south shore Ontario, there were lots of sailors. When I lived in the Midwest there were none. Here in Maine and coastal NE there are tons with new ones joining every year. My brother in law is early 30s and he and many of his friends sail.


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## guitarguy56 (Oct 10, 2012)

To many people who went to the movies just recently the movie 'All is Lost' perhaps put some fear into what would have been new recruits to sailing... Seeing the danger and fears instilled in that movie (although to seasoned sailors the movie was bogus) put off many from joining the sailing call. 

Perhaps there will be another movie made opening across the country like 'Wind' that showed the fun, excitement, losing/winning America's Cup that brings sailing back into the mainstream?


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

caberg said:


> I'm in my 30s and sometimes get quizzical looks from friends when I mention that we own a sailboat. I'm pretty sure that many people my age associate sailing with the traditional yacht club image which is not exactly alluring to my generation.


So which one is you? What's up with the guy who forgot his pants? Looks like he is in boxer shorts.... :devil

Lots of low budget to full on budget sailboats where I am, even though it is an expensive marina. Small 20 foot to 50 + foot ones, heck we even had the America here a week ago, not that I would call that one "low budget!"


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

LLCoolDave said:


> Note: I'm a 33yo old male, never married, no wife, kids, or debt. That makes it easier but we all have to live with our choices.


Don't Be Cruel


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## gigamanx (Dec 2, 2008)

LLCoolDave said:


> I think that digital media about sailing will help. Maybe a year and a half ago I saw the documentary Maiden Trip on Netflix. I thought "Holy ****, I want to do that." A while later I was on meetup.com and my local yacht club (which I didn't know existed) offered a beginner's course for $75. I jumped on it. I found sv Delos and La Vagabond, etc along the way. A year later I'm just about to embark on my first crew position. Sailing for a month and getting some blue water experience.
> 
> Note: I'm a 33yo old male, never married, no wife, kids, or debt. That makes it easier but we all have to live with our choices.


I have thoroughly enjoyed the coverage of the VOR and Americas cup online and on TV. Those two alone have gotten me excited about sailboat racing. I'm mid-30's and have found it very difficult to find anyone around my age that sails. I'd say most younger families are excited about the destination more-so than the enjoyment of boating. A party, marina, drinking, restaurant, etc. When I tell friends I can take them sailing, their first question is where are we going?

We're going sailing! :/


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Best I can tell, most collegiate sailing teams are under 22 years old.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Which begs the question - does collegiate sailing team:collegiate population = sailing population:general population? If yes or greater, then all is fine. Otherwise not so.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

ccriders said:


> Which begs the question - does collegiate sailing team:collegiate population = sailing population:general population? If yes or greater, then all is fine. Otherwise not so.


It would be interesting to know the answer. However, I was refuting the notion that no young kids are taking up the sport.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

I have been an ASA instructor for 11 years. I have observed the number of people taking sailing lessons is steadily decreasing over time.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Yamsailor said:


> I have been an ASA instructor for 11 years. I have observed the number of people taking sailing lessons is steadily decreasing over time.


There has been a steady decrease in people reading the manual that comes with anything. Doesn't mean they aren't buying them.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

I am talking about on-the-water instruction.



seaner97 said:


> There has been a steady decrease in people reading the manual that comes with anything. Doesn't mean they aren't buying them.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Yamsailor said:


> I am talking about on-the-water instruction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My point is that getting instruction is at best loosely correlated to people doing.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

One item that I don't think sailing has addressed in the US is the growth of minorities , especially Latinos, who may love the water but not sailing. I am married to a Colombiana and have lots of Latino friends in Florida, many like power boats/jet skis but only know one into sailing - a Brazilian.
And Latinos still do lots together with family, but a fun day out on the water would be a cookout, lots of music and a couple of bottles of aguardiente - same thing we would do in the street in Medellin but just on a boat. Sailing would take away too much time from the fun.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Alive and well in my hometown. So many boats at the upwind/downwind rounding mark you could step from Boat to Boat.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Put a cooler of free beer in the cockpit and the 20 somethings will show up. Same when I was a kid. Not much has really changed. 

Unless all you cheapskates aren't buying the kids beer like the old days. Maybe it's you.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

cdy said:


> One item that I don't think sailing has addressed in the US is the growth of minorities , especially Latinos, who may love the water but not sailing....


Or, we (minorities) are out there sailing and just not waving our hands to be noticed. Sometimes when I'm not looking for something I won't see it. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

ccriders said:


> Which begs the question - does collegiate sailing team:collegiate population = sailing population:general population? If yes or greater, then all is fine. Otherwise not so.


There are a lot of young people who do snowboarding and take snowboarding lessons, but I would bet not many of them are ever going to take up backcountry cross country ski trekking.

Racing lasers and catamarans is a lot different than cruising sailing and the two activities do not translate for many people.

But it can change, and with this younger generation it seems to be driven by their media. I've been reading about how archery lessons have grown off the charts for pre-teenage and teenage girls as a result of The Hunger Games movies. Everyone wants to be like Katniss Everdeen.

So, it's going to take a major blockbuster Hollywood movie about some young heroic boy or girl saving the world by sailing. A movie with old craggy-faced Robert Redford losing his sailboat and almost dying is not going to do it.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

​


albrazzi said:


> Alive and well in my hometown. So many boats at the upwind/downwind rounding mark you could step from Boat to Boat.


Why is the outhaul attached to the tripping reef?


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

midwesterner said:


> There are a lot of young people who do snowboarding and take snowboarding lessons, but I would bet not many of them are ever going to take up backcountry cross country ski trekking.


The skiing industry was 'resuscitated' by the snowboarders as 'skiers' were in great decline since the mid-1990s, probably due to the horrendously escalating costs of skiing and its equipment; plus, the decline of 'disposable income' for the past 20-30 years.

A snowboard is VASTLY cheaper than an entire ensemble for skiing (now in 'the $thousands' for 'decent' equipment).

Skiing, probably just like sailboating, suffers from the demographic decline of the 'baby boomers' who, for the most part, had a lot of disposable income, and are now becoming physically unable to continue. Their 'demographic replacements' simply don't have the excess disposable income.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

RichH said:


> The skiing industry was 'resuscitated' by the snowboarders as 'skiers' were in great decline since the mid-1990s, probably due to the horrendously escalating costs of skiing and its equipment; plus, the decline of 'disposable income' for the past 20-30 years.
> 
> A snowboard is VASTLY cheaper than an entire ensemble for skiing (now in 'the $thousands' for 'decent' equipment).
> 
> Skiing, probably just like sailboating, suffers from the demographic decline of the 'baby boomers' who, for the most part, had a lot of disposable income, and are now becoming physically unable to continue. Their 'demographic replacements' simply don't have the excess disposable income.


Those baby boomers also had kids who needed to be included in the family "ski vacation", but had little time or money to invest in the lengthy learning process of skiing. Voila, snow boarding, two days on the slopes and you are a champion...sounds very similar to the sailing industry.


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## jaredrada (May 22, 2016)

First post here! Just wanted to add my 2 cents... I'm 27 years old and a lifelong power boater. I've exclusively owned Mastercrafts (powerboat if you dont know) my whole life. I was an avid wakeboarder and more into the extreme sports- snowboarding etc. But recently I've adopted sailboating- inspired by Americas cup and the VOR. I took an ASA 101 course in the NYC harbor, and just completed the purchase of my first sailboat, a 1990 Catalina 30! I have a ton of friends who love to join me on the Mastercraft and I expect the same for the C30. I'm more of a do-my-own-thing/try new things type of person and I've inspired many people to either resume or join the sailing life. Sailing is an incredibly cost prohibitive endeavor, only works for those near bodies of water.

My future plans include purchasing a 40-50ft in ~two years, attempting liveboard, then purchasing a Gunboat 55 and completing a circumnavigation.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

aeventyr60 said:


> Those baby boomers also had kids who needed to be included in the family "ski vacation", but had little time or money to invest in the lengthy learning process of skiing. Voila, snow boarding, two days on the slopes and you are a champion...sounds very similar to the sailing industry.


Having skied my whole life and taking up snowboarding at 52, there's no Voila in snowboarding!  In fact, watching my wife switch to a board after a lifetime of skiing and teaching two kids -both methods- it's quite a bit tougher to get started on a snowboard than skis, at any age.

People living near water and ski slopes still have reasonably priced programs to get their kids started in either(Sail/skiing) recreation.

We've vastly expanded(more lifts and trails) our local town owned ski area. The local harbors are so full of sailors launching boats here these days, I wonder if there is enough time to get all the boats in.

It also looks like sailboats outnumber power boats by about 2 to 1. Most of the boats being launched are on their second or third owner.

And the new owners are younger.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

From the responses seems like it is a regional thing - some areas sailing seems to be thriving - boating is doing well in Florida - just sailing is down, I would guess a combination of less disposable income ( Florida is not a high wage state) increase in slip prices ,$8-10 ft minimum, less free time. 

The prices for smaller boats that need a slip are in the toilet - 25-30 ft sailboats that are -15 to 30 years old, Hunter 30's going for $5,000 , Catalina 27's for $3,000. Boats that in the past a middle class family might sail. The problem is even if you get a boat for free - most don't have the budget for the slip rental ( or its not high enough of a priority in the entertainment budget)


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

First of all - awesome that I can get a 15 years old Catalina 30 for $5k. Sign me up. 

I could - well I do - scrape up the money for dockage. However, that dockage $$ is the real price, and the real problem.

I mean, reading throuugh this whole thread - the state of sailboat dereliction seems mostly due to the lack of good paying employment, as compared to the 1950's - 1970's. I think plenty of people could scrape up $5k for a one time purchase, but not that many could pay $7k/ year for storage. 

I dont see an answer.


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## Quickstep192 (Jan 6, 2001)

I went to downtown Annapolis last night. All the slips on ego alley were taken, but I think only one was a sailboat. In the past, they would have been all sailboats.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Tax structure, gov't fees and restrictions are driving the US industry down. Smart money buys a new boat overseas, uses Marshall I. or the like and keeps it moving. There used to be a group of thriving Massachusetts sailboat manufacturers. Now due to taxes those paying federal taxes in Connecticut or Massachusetts buy and keep their boats in Rhode Island. Taxes are lost to Massachusetts as all the income tax from boat builders, brokers and ancillaries are now paid to Rhode Island. Mass would have been income positive and have more employment. Stupid.
Used to be it was easier to work on your own boat. Now yards live in fear of EPA so restrictions are sometimes over the top. Yes the goal of the rules makes sense but application is onerous in current format. 
Used to be the tourists came to enjoy the sight of quaint New England harbors with sailboats, commercial fish boats, novi lobster boats. This brought in dollars to the small towns. Now it looks like Atlantic City and we know how well they are doing economically. During tourist season most local people abandon our downtown. The mom and pop hardware stores and the like have gone out of business. Soft serve ice cream, t shirt stores and bars have taken it over. They are desolate during the winter. Full time year long employment has fallen for downtown.
The country has evolved. There is less and less regional differences. Small shops and regional cultures are having a harder time. The chains win out. The small recreational marine market is just one of many victims. You better like Brewers and West Marine. The age of small chandleries and mom and pop marinas is a thing of the past.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

One should also remember the infamous Ted Kennedy "Luxury Tax" on personal boats, personal aircraft, etc. in the early 1990s that caused the US recreational boat industry, etc. to collapse, including well over 40,000 job losses in the US boat building industry. The sailboat portion never recovered from that debacle. Another destructive 'STUPID'.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Shockwave said:


> ​
> Why is the outhaul attached to the tripping reef?


Nice catch, I have only one outhaul with room for another through the boom and plan on adding the other once I order a new main, not sure if it will have a flattener. The Main is blown out so badly I cant get the shape I want no matter what I do might be the one that came with the Boat new in 87', so it was there from the last attempt to get some sail shape.


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## Bahia Mike (May 17, 2016)

eko_eko said:


> I'm usually the youngest adult at the sailing meetups or club events I attend. I wish there were more folks my age involved. It would make it easier for me to involve my wife and kids. We're in our thirties with toddlers.
> 
> I look at people just a few years my junior and can't relate to their priorities. The people posting about the generation a half step behind me are not wrong.
> 
> ...


We will definitely be some of the youngest in our area and we aren't that young. Cost and a lack of free time prevents a lot of our friends from taking action on the sailboat dream.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Apparently some have forgotten that the tax rate was higher than it is now from the 50s thru the 80s. So it ain't the taxes.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Seaner was speaking specifically about boat related taxes/fees. 
Since epoch you referenced.
Luxury tax.
Sales tax dramatically higher
Mooring fees in my town have gone up much greater the rate of inflation. Maintenance now needs to go through town harbor master certified vendors- much more expensive.
Dinghy tax and fees.
State registration fees
Dinghy dock fees to town
So adding it up now paying town/ state much more for same size boat. 
Other places you can add in personal property tax
If you fish in last two years can now add in state(new) and fed licenses.

Agree that depending on where you live total tax burden maybe flat or down for landlubbers but for boat related activities believe( perhaps wrongly) gov't fees/taxes have gone up.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

outbound said:


> Seaner was speaking specifically about boat related taxes/fees.
> Since epoch you referenced.
> Luxury tax.
> Sales tax dramatically higher
> ...


No doubt water related taxes have gone up, as more progressive taxes have gone down, more regressive taxes are forced up. Same in Maine- Lepage cut off school funding transfers, all the small school districts had to either combine or make up the revenue somewhere. Harbors are convenient places to look, and it's not the lobsterman that's going to get it first (although they will eventually).


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have you read"how did he get elected?" In the Globe?


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

outbound said:


> Have you read"how did he get elected?" In the Globe?


Saw the J Oliver piece. I've lived it, so that's only part of it.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

seaner97 said:


> Saw the J Oliver piece. I've lived it, so that's only part of it.


The vid in the Globe article, shows the 'humor' side of our gov.

'Humor' meaning, he's made Maine the laughing stock of the world. 

I hope he hasn't sent us back in time too far, to recover.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

seaner97 said:


> Apparently some have forgotten that the tax rate was higher than it is now from the 50s thru the 80s. So it ain't the taxes.


Tax rates were higher; but, very few reached those income levels where they applied.

In today's TOTAL tax structure, the average 'middle class' family in many areas of the nation are paying approaching 65-70% of income in (total) taxes when one includes all federal, state, local tax burdens, and then also considers all the pass-along taxes, 'risk' & regulatory up-charges applied to 'business' that are simply passed along to the consumer as higher prices, ... and now, obscene healthcare insurance premium increases (defined also as a 'tax' by the SCOTUS).

Consider also the monumental 'debasement' of the US currency due to 'stimulus' and 'quantitive easing' (money printing) which significantly decreased the 'value' (purchasing power) of the $US. "Debasement" of the currency is not included in federal inflation calculations; but it works in the exact same way as massive inflation - a SILENT TAX.

Then consider the over-supply of the labor force due to uncontrolled immigration and a significant non-citizen population with H1B visas.

It ain't 'pretty' if you're a wage/salary earner. 
Its probably going to get MUCH worse in the near term future. The US total debt is nearing $200T, and most is 'un-funded' ... and is 'coming due'.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

RichH said:


> Tax rates were higher; but, very few reached those income levels where they applied.
> 
> In today's TOTAL tax structure, the average 'middle class' family in many areas of the nation are paying approaching 65-70% of income in (total) taxes when one includes all federal, state, local tax burdens, and then also considers all the pass-along taxes, 'risk' & regulatory up-charges applied to 'business' that are simply passed along to the consumer as higher prices, ... and now, obscene healthcare insurance increases (defined also as a 'tax' by the SCOTUS).
> Consider also the monumental 'debasement' of the US currency due to 'stimulus' and 'quantitive easing' (money printing) which significantly decreased the 'value' (purchasing power) of the $US.
> ...


We're fast forwarding into the overpopulation the rest of the world has been looking at for a very long time. I have no desire to put the politics in this but it would be nice if we could take it back to a time where there was money enough for all (most anyway) plenty of cheap boats and no need to tax everything that moves. I had to get two surveys just to insure my boat this time, just another tax as far as I'm concerned, Insurance requiring me to support a dwindling industry.
I'm just happy to go sailing a couple of times a week. Don't wait do it now.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

RichH said:


> seaner97 said:
> 
> 
> > Apparently some have forgotten that the tax rate was higher than it is now from the 50s thru the 80s. So it ain't the taxes.
> ...


Except that ALL income tax brackets were higher then. So ALL wage earners kicked in more during that time period. Listen, I didn't want to take it down a political rabbit hole, but all the European and Canadian companies have their labor at higher (or equal) wages and higher social welfare than ours. My point was just that you can (and do) make and sail boats in places with higher taxes and better social welfare states than Massachusetts. Having lived and trained in Canada, I KNOW they laugh at us (usually in horror) when people spout the lower taxes stuff.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

TomMaine said:


> The vid in the Globe article, shows the 'humor' side of our gov.
> 
> 'Humor' meaning, he's made Maine the laughing stock of the world.
> 
> I hope he hasn't sent us back in time too far, to recover.


I really don't find our Guv that humorous. At least he does believe that there is mental illness, unlike the Guv of Texas who believes that there is none and its all just a bunch of slackers trying to get on the dole.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

Sal Paradise said:


> scrape up the money for dockage. However, that dockage $$ is the real price, and the real problem.


I wish that a "dockage" was even available for me. In Downeast Maine, unless you are really really rich and have a really really big boat, you have to settle for a mooring.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

seaner97 said:


> Except that ALL income tax brackets were higher then. So ALL wage earners kicked in more during that time period. Listen, I didn't want to take it down a political rabbit hole, but all the European and Canadian companies have their labor at higher (or equal) wages and higher social welfare than ours. My point was just that you can (and do) make and sail boats in places with higher taxes and better social welfare states than Massachusetts. Having lived and trained in Canada, I KNOW they laugh at us (usually in horror) when people spout the lower taxes stuff.


You really cannot easily/directly compare differences between the 'value' of other currencies and labor rates in other nations - very 'complicated'. The real issue is 'what is the excess DISPOSABLE income one has left over for other than basic needs'. Disposable income (and average std. of living) in the USA has taken a MAJOR hit due to the present 'combined (and also hidden) tax structure'.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have spent two years looking for a suitable mooring with 6 1/2' of draft in R.I.. Doesn't exist or 20 year wait. In my "home" town in Mass waiting list is > 25 yrs. !!!!
Would much rather be on a mooring. Quite, less hard on the boat, easier to single on and off. Most of the south you are stuck using slips. Most of the north moorings turn over slowly, few "big boat" moorings, mooring fields disappearing. Public dinghy docks a thing of the past. Tie up for a few hours. No overnight availability. 
Cruising takes local knowledge for anchoring if you want to leave the boat for awhile. Recipicality decreasing between clubs. Get more out of kindness of OCC members then if in a club.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

RichH said:


> seaner97 said:
> 
> 
> > Except that ALL income tax brackets were higher then. So ALL wage earners kicked in more during that time period. Listen, I didn't want to take it down a political rabbit hole, but all the European and Canadian companies have their labor at higher (or equal) wages and higher social welfare than ours. My point was just that you can (and do) make and sail boats in places with higher taxes and better social welfare states than Massachusetts. Having lived and trained in Canada, I KNOW they laugh at us (usually in horror) when people spout the lower taxes stuff.
> ...


You're combining unlike issues here. Not comparing value of currency and labor, just pointing out that taxes and social welfare programs aren't the downfall of the sailboat building industry. Otherwise there would be a booming industry in seacoast NH. Agree disposable income down, mostly due to stagnation of real wages. Also true that real wages have risen faster in states with higher taxes.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Sorry to disagree; but, the worldwide economic fundamental for the now visible 'decrease' is the depressed national productivities (less than 2% rise in GDP/yr.) vs. the constant rise of 'entitlements' (~10% per year), combined especially with a worldwide rapidly aging population and in which such entitlements are required by law. 
Without significant increases in 'productivity' (% growth of GDP), you 'must' divert 'growth' to fund/pay for the, mandated by law, increasing 'entitlements'. 
Without constant GDP 'growth' at ~4+%/yr = decline; and most economists (left and right) will agree.
This is all 'economic'; not political nor ideological.

As regards the sailboat industry - the taxation of 'luxury' indeed lessened the boating industry by increased costs of ownership through taxation. Those unable to pay those taxes, simply 'dropped out', etc. due to the costs that exceeded their 'disposable' income. Supply vs. demand


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Go to Portugal see expat Brits. Go to west coast Mexico or eastern Carribean see expat North Americans. Go to Thailand see expat everythings. 
Seems people's behavior does respond to tax codes. Many people don't do the north east to Florida cycle in response to the tax structures and cost of living. Ultimately cheaper and more pleasant to miss Florida and Bahamas due to cost of living when on a boat.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

No disagreement that this is a macro issue long term. Lots of disagreement that this has any other than minimal bearing on where we are now. No doubt the luxury tax was the final blow to an already floundering sailboat building industry. But I would point out, to the OPs point, that dockage, storage, etc is same for powerboats, and fuel costs have been high enough in the last 20 years that it should have driven people onto sailboats, but didn't. The tax and entitlement issues are the same for that group, but people still seem to buy bowriders, picnic boats, pontoon boats, etc., many from companies that are producing them in the USA. The facts of the local (US) current economic situation just don't fit the 'economic' narrative. 
My take- more jobs eating into 'free' time (partly the fault of technology), thereby putting a premium on reliability of transit time (i.e.- increase in the value of the engine as a means of transport) while simultaneously also increasing the premium on ease of entry (i.e.- 'drive' and just don't hit the ground vs. intimidating to learn all the ropes).


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Sounds like fleeing weather as much as anything. And by ex pat I assume you mean ex citizen as well, because otherwise, you still need to file taxes with your home country.


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

outbound said:


> Have spent two years looking for a suitable mooring with 6 1/2' of draft in R.I.. Doesn't exist or 20 year wait. In my "home" town in Mass waiting list is > 25 yrs. !!!!
> Would much rather be on a mooring. Quite, less hard on the boat, easier to single on and off. Most of the south you are stuck using slips. Most of the north moorings turn over slowly, few "big boat" moorings, mooring fields disappearing. Public dinghy docks a thing of the past. Tie up for a few hours. No overnight availability.
> Cruising takes local knowledge for anchoring if you want to leave the boat for awhile. Recipicality decreasing between clubs. Get more out of kindness of OCC members then if in a club.


That sounds rough! Aren't there any public options, or are those waiting lists for public moorings(in which case, it sounds like sailing is alive and - too well)?

We're spared rapidly escalating fees on the coast of Maine mostly by (I believe), the fishermen. Most of the local harbors are heavy on fishing - as they always were.

This has preserved public lands and access in the form of dinghy docks, moorings, storage in some cases(I use the public landing to store my boat in the offseason).

And while most of the harbors have waiting lists, they're not that(25yrs!) long. A couple years on the average I would say. And there are plenty of options for renting moorings for reasonable rates(although higher than public rates), instantly available.

As somebody mentioned, docking is rare in this area as it is farther downeast.

I haven't seen much of any increase in my mooring fees, in 16 seasons. We pay 139.00 for the season. You can get a dinghy sticker for 50.00(or leave it on land for next to nothing). You own your gear and have it inspected and maintained yearly, at your expense.

I begrudgingly pay an use tax for my boat in Maine, called an Excise tax. Like automobiles, that hits the new boat buyer hard. Like our cars(we always buy used), our boat is so old so the motor vehicle excise tax isn't high at 100.20(add 20.00 for Maine boat registration - I have the receipts and stickers in front of me, headed to the boat : ) ).

With state of the art floating docking space galore to tie up temporarily for both commercial fishermen and rec. boaters(seperate), free parking, showers, coin laundry, free pump out, fiber optic speed free wifi throughout the harbor, we pay the same as the lobstermen in our harbor, to use the public access.

These are reasons that sailing is alive and well on the coast of Maine. You might consider moving your boat here. We can use the money.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

I really hate to post this, as it is not a sailing related boat builder, but there are USA based boat manufacturers who have done quite well. This one had some impact on us going cruising as a client...Why Bayliner


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

RichH said:


> Sorry to disagree; but, the worldwide economic fundamental for the now visible 'decrease' is the depressed national productivities (less than 2% rise in GDP/yr.) vs. the constant rise of 'entitlements' (~10% per year), combined especially with a worldwide rapidly aging population and in which such entitlements are required by law.
> Without significant increases in 'productivity' (% growth of GDP), you 'must' divert 'growth' to fund/pay for the, mandated by law, increasing 'entitlements'.
> Without constant GDP 'growth' at ~4+%/yr = decline; and most economists (left and right) will agree.
> This is all 'economic'; not political nor ideological.
> ...


I couldn't agree more, all facets of business and society are forced to do more with less. Part of my Inevitability theory.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

TomMaine said:


> That sounds rough! Aren't there any public options, or are those waiting lists for public moorings(in which case, it sounds like sailing is alive and - too well)?
> 
> We're spared rapidly escalating fees on the coast of Maine mostly by (I believe), the fishermen. Most of the local harbors are heavy on fishing - as they always were.
> 
> ...


Before we decided on our current site, I was on mooring waiting lists in several harbors that had waiting lists of up to 15 years in Maine. Every one of them called to offer a mooring site or to sell an existing one to me within 24 months. I paid a whopping 400$ in taxes and mooring related charges to the government this season, which was up 5$ from last year.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

RichH said:


> Sorry to disagree; but, the worldwide economic fundamental for the now visible 'decrease' is the depressed national productivities (less than 2% rise in GDP/yr.) vs. the constant rise of 'entitlements' (~10% per year), combined especially with a worldwide rapidly aging population and in which such entitlements are required by law.
> Without significant increases in 'productivity' (% growth of GDP), you 'must' divert 'growth' to fund/pay for the, mandated by law, increasing 'entitlements'.
> Without constant GDP 'growth' at ~4+%/yr = decline; and most economists (left and right) will agree.
> This is all 'economic'; not political nor ideological.


This might be demographics, its is definately more political than economics. By pointing to social security and ignoring basic history such as the divergence of productivity and wages you essentially highlight a certain narrow viewpoint. Certainly a right wing view.

It is as if to say "don't mention the financial crisis, income inequality, globalism , wall street crash, automation driving down wages...look over there it's grandma's insulin that is keeping us from buying that yacht." Now in fairness you did not say that, but that is the type of thinking you show.

The big change is the divergence of productivity and wages. Look at the chart, and where the divergence happens you can essentially see the begining of the decline of mass production of boats.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Do you think these immigration and nationality act of 1965 had anything to do with the difference of wages and productivity?


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Globalized work force has to be a one of the biggest factors for the divergence of productivity and wages, no doubt.


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## Zarathu (May 26, 2014)

seaner97 said:


> Before we decided on our current site, I was on mooring waiting lists in several harbors that had waiting lists of up to 15 years in Maine. Every one of them called to offer a mooring site or to sell an existing one to me within 24 months. I paid a whopping 400$ in taxes and mooring related charges to the government this season, which was up 5$ from last year.


I paid $1000 to own my mooring. I pay $35 to the town of Bar Harbor for the mooring. I pay $120 a year to the Frenchman Bay Boat Company to check it and maintain it, and to get my boat if the mooring fails to work in some way.

You should move to Bar Harbor, Maine. But then, you won't find a mooring available in any of the harbors such as Bar Harbor, Southwest Harbor, or Northeast harbor. But there are other places around the island which are easily available, or you could join a club.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

outbound said:


> Go to Portugal see expat Brits. Go to west coast Mexico or eastern Carribean see expat North Americans. Go to Thailand see expat everythings.
> Seems people's behavior does respond to tax codes. Many people don't do the north east to Florida cycle in response to the tax structures and cost of living. Ultimately cheaper and more pleasant to miss Florida and Bahamas due to cost of living when on a boat.


My Thai shipwright/carpenter makes life afloat very easy. A week of his services will put me back a little less then 200 bucks. I'm scrambling around trying to find other jobs for him to do... Finally going to get the hood for the sliding hatch cover made.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

:eek


Sal Paradise said:


> This might be demographics, its is definately more political than economics. By pointing to social security and ignoring basic history such as the divergence of productivity and wages you essentially highlight a certain narrow viewpoint. Certainly a right wing view.
> 
> It is as if to say "don't mention the financial crisis, income inequality, globalism , wall street crash, automation driving down wages...look over there it's grandma's insulin that is keeping us from buying that yacht." Now in fairness you did not say that, but that is the type of thinking you show.


That's simply wrong; NOT basic history but probably propaganda since you somehow know 'my type of thinking'. Im a libertarian = Do what you want; but, _anything_ you do that consciously/unconsciously _harms_ anyone else in any way is WRONG.



Sal Paradise said:


> The big change is the divergence of productivity and wages. Look at the chart, and where the divergence happens you can essentially see the begining of the decline of mass production of boats.


Do you understand the definition of 'productivity' in an economic sense?
Do you understand the term 'constant dollars'?
Do you understand the difference between employer supplied tax deferred income (via direct pensions, matching funds for 401Ks, employer supplied healthcare insurance, etc.) vs. direct taxed wages?
I looked at the chart carefully - probable glaring omissions that greatly skew the plot; besides it is 'un-cited'..

A. It would be quite easy to state that many of your suppositions, and especially your 'chart' are incomplete and therefore misleading (while ignoring an apparent uncontrollable trembling of the lower extremities due to "fox news" ). http://www.sailnet.com/forums/images/SailNet_Toucan/smilies/tango_face_plain.png

B. A very common misconception, on a macroeconomics scale, is: '*productivity*' is NOT how hard, how long, etc. a worker takes to complete a task. 
Let me guess? ...... The OBVIOUS inference from your un-cited chart (with ratios undefined!!!) is that a worker's wages received should be directly proportional to the time/effort, etc. spent in completing a task? - WRONG WRONG WRONG !!!!!!!!!!
Productivity is a national or broad scale measure of the _*efficiency*_ of labor *AND* capital to produce a given output of an entire nation. Has something to do with GDP per capita per hour basis.

To wit and I quote -
"Productivity isn't everything, but in the long run it is almost everything. A country's ability to *improve its standard of living* over time depends almost entirely on its ability to raise its output per worker". - Paul Krugman, _The Age of Diminishing Expectations_ (1994) 
Note- Krugman is not a noted 'right winger', not even close to the center of the road.

Discussion of productivity as relating to 'economics' (not political ideology):
http://www.oecd.org/std/productivity-stats/40526851.pdf

C. *Nit picking*- 
The problem with your un-cited chart is that it apparently ignores or omits several very important items:
1. From the mid 60s to the ~early 90s, (many) workers also received additional 'tax deferred' income in _lieu of wages_ in the form of direct pensions (not included in your graph - wages not reported due to 'tax deferred'). Therefore these _alternate_ forms of employee income do not show as wages as they are or can be 'sheltered', until withdrawn. Please make corrections and overlay and add that missing worker income to make the chart valid and objective. The transition of employee gained tax deferred other employer derived income in lieu of wages would not be reported as 'wages'.

2. From the mid 90s until about ~2008, 401K and 403k accounts (with matching employer funds!!!! - still sheltered from taxes until 'withdrawal' - deferred) are income but not included as 'wages'. Therefore TOTAL income as wages by workers is probably in gross error. Corrctions - ditto above.

3. Is the chart's wages listed in 'constant' dollars correlated to some year? or is wages reported without compensation for inflation, currency debasement, etc. etc. etc. ..... BIG difference if you want to make VALID point.

4. Until the mid 90s, most (average) employees received employer direct supplied healthcare policies - IRS defined employee income not reported as wages!

5. In 1971 Nixon completely removed the $US from any connection with gold. That led to a free-floating fiat currency. So therefore the definition of 'money' (wages) since that time to be valid should, for the sake of objectivity, be presented in some form of 'constant dollars', including the ratios as provided on that 'chart'; otherwise, such would infer misdirection, disinformation and/or simply propaganda.

6. "Look at the chart, and where the divergence happens you can essentially see the begining of the decline of mass production of boats." 
Hogwash! The escalation in the mass production of boats occurred during the late 1960s through and into the 1980s (during depressed financial times of repeated serial-recessions, wage controls, price controls, a major war, volatile dollar value, stagflation, and almost hyper-inflation).

;-)


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I totally would have guessed you were a libertarian Rich. I don't know where to begin with your rant. Let's just stick with your last point for now as it directly relates to boats at least.

"The escalation in the mass production of boats occurred during the late 1960s through and into the 1980s"

While technically " into the 80's" might be true you are actually making my point. As the bottom fell out of wages, as shown in the chart ( I'll get back to the chart) predictably the demand for boats fell. Take the Catalina 22 production for example. From 1970 to 1981 roughly 10,000 were built. 35 years later they have only reached into the 15,000's

True? Or some anti libertarian propoganda?

http://www.theannemarie.com/img/cat22-history.pdf

A quick google search yeilded multiple references to the decline of the boat building industry during the 1980's, but being a libertarian I expect you to have none of that, instead focusing tighty on semantics, splitting hairs..INTO the 1980's..... as to include 1981 in that.... LOL But in general we know the decline was well under way about then, just 5 years after the chart shows the divergence of productivity and labor.

Falling Tide : Local Boat Builders Look Back at Good Old Days - latimes

Although Ventura County spans 45 miles of coastline and sports three harbors--including the only deep water port between Los Angeles and San Francisco--the boat building industry is on the decline here, officials said.

There are only about six companies in the county that build commercial and recreational boats, down from a peak of 10 firms in the early 1980s, boat builders said.

Ok, as for the " uncited chart" - you and anyone else can do a quick google search - here is a link - https://www.google.com/search?q=gra...rome..69i57.7981j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

You will find tons and tons of articles on this chart, many which support it and some which try and tweak it one way or another. None of them flatly refute it. Anyone can read up on it and see how it is used and cited. The fact that it is so widely read and discussed speaks for itself. I simply pointed out that you ignored it while pointing to social security as the reason for the decline in sailing. Beyond being simply ridiculous, it it blatantly obvious that your statement about it being 100% economics and not ideology or politics is false.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Still a lot of this is cultural not economics nor politics. Look to the French. Their cradle to grave entitlements are collapsing. Their left wing gov't is trying to introduce some sanity to their labor laws resulting in riots. Inspite of this sailing is in the public eye. Their racers are national heroes. New boats are designed and sold with length of ownership shorter there and turnover greater from what I understand. 
They are exporting boats ( as are the Poles and Dutch). We are net importers of the few bought. Run into European cruisiers in the Caribbean and chat. Although I know the names of their building and design houses typically they don't know US producers.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Zarathu said:


> seaner97 said:
> 
> 
> > Before we decided on our current site, I was on mooring waiting lists in several harbors that had waiting lists of up to 15 years in Maine. Every one of them called to offer a mooring site or to sell an existing one to me within 24 months. I paid a whopping 400$ in taxes and mooring related charges to the government this season, which was up 5$ from last year.
> ...


That's only a few bucks less than me. I was including excise tax. And SW Harbour was one that called me with a mooring.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Sal Paradise said:


> You will find tons and tons of articles on this chart, many which support it and some which try and tweak it one way or another. None of them flatly refute it. Anyone can read up on it and see how it is used and cited. The fact that it is so widely read and discussed speaks for itself. I simply pointed out that you ignored it while pointing to social security as the reason for the decline in sailing. Beyond being simply ridiculous, it it blatantly obvious that your statement about it being 100% economics and not ideology or politics is false.


1. No one is dismissing the now catastrophic decline of economic factors of the USA and of the EU and most of the world. It is very complicated. Your initial implications are not objective, & politically skewed as without cites and references .... 'spin'.

2. Please refer to where I stated that Social Security is the reason for the decline of the boating industry .... other than the implication that people who nearing or in retirement do not continue to spend as a measure of their preservation of personal capital. 
This phenomenon 'is' a key component in driving the USA economic downturn as the current baby-boomer generation holds probably the bulk (70±%) of the wealth/equity of the nation; and, are now not spending to the level as when they were working. This is a down-turn component economic cycle that has been repeated many times and places in the past.

3. Any nation cant long exist as a solvent nation when the 'debt' service charges (interest) exceeds the national income (GDP) ..... even the 'Keynesian' Economic Theorists know this. 
Current US GDP = $18T; 'Active' US debt = $19T; Unfunded and combined public and private total debt = ~$200T (and soon coming due).

4. Tell me how any economy, rise or decline, is not proportional to 'economics'. The current state of 'economics' is the result of government policy; not the reverse.

5. Lastly, if you realize that 'productivity' is a measure of total economic efficiency; and, government excess keeps removing productive operating capital from an economy through excess taxation, then you've discovered the reason for the 'flat line' (decline = less than ~4% yearly growth) even in 'your' presented (un-cited) chart. 
Its no secret that the economic/monetary 'policy turn' that began in the 1970s is mirrored in your chart in that the present _average_ yearly income of ~$52,000 should be at present at well over ~$100,000 through 'just' the continuation of the application simple compound interest due to 'growth' since the beginning of the 'flat line' in 1971 (disconnect of the $US from gold). What your chart is really showing (IMO) is a governmental policy that has clearly reduced the average 'standard of living' - a POLITICAL effect that has constrained a free market economy and has transformed it into a managed and quite inefficient economy. 
As regards Social Security etc. ... for the average person who is forcibly coerced into FICA,etc., if that money was properly funded/held and received simple compound interest, at retirement (or disability) that amount would have generated somewhere in the range of $2M-$3M PER PERSON; instead that 'debt equity' is about to collapse due to 'unsustainable debt' at a total amount approx. five times greater that the current net worth of the entire planet - How's that for economic self-destruction / self imposed economic suicide as the result of a policy of a national Ponzi scheme ? The current value of the $US is now ~$0.004 in comparison to pre-great-depression times. 
;-)


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

outbound said:


> Still a lot of this is cultural not economics nor politics. Look to the French. Their cradle to grave entitlements are collapsing. Their left wing gov't is trying to introduce some sanity to their labor laws resulting in riots. Inspite of this sailing is in the public eye. Their racers are national heroes. New boats are designed and sold with length of ownership shorter there and turnover greater from what I understand.
> They are exporting boats ( as are the Poles and Dutch). We are net importers of the few bought. Run into European cruisiers in the Caribbean and chat. Although I know the names of their building and design houses typically they don't know US producers.


The EU has a strategic trade advantage - VAT (18-24%) is not (uniformly) applied to exports.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Sal Paradise said:


> Globalized work force has to be a one of the biggest factors for the divergence of productivity and wages, no doubt.


On the contrary, government policies which entice the exportation of capital is probably the principal cause of such 'divergence'.

Second probable cause is the promotion of unrestrained immigration - supply and demand of available workers ... simple economics.

Third is the preference/allowance of the oversupply of H1B visas. 
Have you been to any 'tech' firms lately? have you noticed the 'demographics' there? Foreign educated (in 'tech') are generally more productive and better educated.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Do libertarians ever wonder why no one argues with them? Of course not - it must be their infallible logic! That's the kind of thought loop that even the hated " uncited chart" when examined reveals itself to be nothing more than actual proof of libertarian principles. It's like playing ping pong with a person who thinks out is a point.

In the interests of human decency I will spare us all a fully cited, with footnotes, debate on economics. Let's make it really simple - social security ( or as you call it entitlements) makes it easier to go sailing because you don't have to pay for your parents medication or food. When its your turn to go retirement cruising, SS adds to your kitty a little bit. After 2037 perhaps only 75% of what they should. But on the balance, entitlements are pro sailing. For most people.

Now, to be fair I will revisit the thrust of your earlier comment - low GDP growth rates combined with rising entitlements is responsible for the decline of sailing. Sorry to do this but if you look at a chart of the GDP you see a fairly consistently rising line. And we all know there more and more people on the planet so this makes some sense. But where is the correlation to the dying of sailboat ownership? ?? There is none, otherwise we should see a spike as sailing boomed in the 70's and a sag where it got less popular gradually down until today. I know, you think it's too slow, but historically speaking its increasing and the correlation doesn't seem to be there for your argument. Capiche?

Now just admit you were wrong like a man and let us move on.  I will accept your apology, in fact I already have.

Just kidding, no one is ever proven wrong on the internet, only boring.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Don't think vat is the cause. Once you leave the US majority of cruisers are not US citizens. Even Canadians are better represented although we greatly outnumber them. None I've seen are on us made boats. At all price points us boats seem to be at a competitive disadvantage even with the Europeans paying vat.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

To add fuel to this interesting discussion. Many citizens feel since FDR taxes have had as one of their primary goals attempt to influence behavior. Be that investment of capital, sin taxes, income redistribution, industrial or farming practices, consumption of nature resources such as water, or to address social inequities. They feel when stakeholders are at the table they are on the table as all elected representation do not have the skin in the game nor the life experience they do so are not representative of their or the end users interests. . So you get a skilled marketer and a career policitian where neither have any interest but their own expanding egos.
In response the public at large has lost the sense of "tribe" as used by Sabastian Junger. Watching others game the system for personal reward to survive they do the same. A logical abet unfortunate result. Given its approached as a game in which they have little or no influence on the rules they feel dissociated. 
Responses to date be they libertarian, progressive or conservative do not realistically address the increasing absence of doing a good days work because there is honor in work, not screwing the other guy because it's just not right, honoring basic human dignity. Their premise doesn't address the conflict between Hobbs and Rousseau. "What do you expect...I'm a businessman ". "I did nothing illegal". Both statements reprehensible as are both candidates. There is an absence of "tribe".
One of the delightful things about sailing and cruising is that sense of tribe often still exists. For that reason regardless of these larger economic and social issues I believe recreational sailing has a future.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

You must have read or studied the works of Friedrich Hayek, best known for his adherence of and defense of 'classical' liberalism. 
;-)


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Too many inconsistencies and he honored and worked for Pinochet. Nay, an interesting thinker but not my cup of tea. Not an economist so much of it is too dense for me. 
More interested in ants. Surprised how collective intelligence and the Hegelian dialectic works. See it arrested in Middle East, Russia and concerned about rise of fascist thought here but remain hopeful.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

outbound said:


> To add fuel to this interesting discussion. Many citizens feel since FDR taxes have had as one of their primary goals attempt to influence behavior. Be that investment of capital, sin taxes, income redistribution, industrial or farming practices, consumption of nature resources such as water, or to address social inequities. They feel when stakeholders are at the table they are on the table as all elected representation do not have the skin in the game nor the life experience they do so are not representative of their or the end users interests. . So you get a skilled marketer and a career policitian where neither have any interest but their own expanding egos.
> In response the public at large has lost the sense of "tribe" as used by Sabastian Junger. Watching others game the system for personal reward to survive they do the same. A logical abet unfortunate result. Given its approached as a game in which they have little or no influence on the rules they feel dissociated.
> Responses to date be they libertarian, progressive or conservative do not realistically address the increasing absence of doing a good days work because there is honor in work, not screwing the other guy because it's just not right, honoring basic human dignity. Their premise doesn't address the conflict between Hobbs and Rousseau. "What do you expect...I'm a businessman ". "I did nothing illegal". Both statements reprehensible as are both candidates. There is an absence of "tribe".
> One of the delightful things about sailing and cruising is that sense of tribe often still exists. For that reason regardless of these larger economic and social issues I believe recreational sailing has a future.


There has been a severe resurgence of "tribalism" in the US. Political polarization is an example where left and right both have conflicting views that are held to tightly despite the obvious inconsistency. I think Juenger was attempting to address social contract, which has been shredded more or less progressively since 1980.


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## chrisncate (Jan 29, 2010)

What, no Smackdaddy to come in and pound his shoe on the table and scream about how this is a sailing forum?

Oh the humanity.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Sean I know you know it was not the parochial, provincial tribalism seen in the near east I was referring to. That is destructive. But rather as you state the communal feeling we are all in it together that underpins the social contract. Yes you are right too many identify themselves as first a member of a political party or subset of that party and second as a citizen of a nation. They don't realize they are voting against their own best interest. The concept of the general tribe of man is foreign. 
My kids vote. They follow the news not the kadashians. They are considered exceptional by some of their peers. However there is a resurgence of a moral ethic in their peer group and desire to leave it better than they found it. Unfortunately too many don't see gov't as the mechanism. 
In multiple threads people here rale against gov't. Be it the state of Florida. Or town harbormasters. Or Feds. Ultimately gov't is the solution. Problem is more rules, more power, more power less freedoms and more opportunities for unintended consequences.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

outbound said:


> Sean I know you know it was not the parochial, provincial tribalism seen in the near east I was referring to. That is destructive. But rather as you state the communal feeling we are all in it together that underpins the social contract. Yes you are right too many identify themselves as first a member of a political party or subset of that party and second as a citizen of a nation. They don't realize they are voting against their own best interest. The concept of the general tribe of man is foreign.
> My kids vote. They follow the news not the kadashians. They are considered exceptional by some of their peers. However there is a resurgence of a moral ethic in their peer group and desire to leave it better than they found it. Unfortunately too many don't see gov't as the mechanism.
> In multiple threads people here rale against gov't. Be it the state of Florida. Or town harbormasters. Or Feds. Ultimately gov't is the solution. Problem is more rules, more power, more power less freedoms and more opportunities for unintended consequences.


Government is what we choose to do together. Government is us.


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

seaner97 said:


> Government is what we choose to do together. Government is us.


Pogo had a quote about this very thing...


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