# Catalina 30 standing rigging



## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Doing the research on replacing my standing rigging. The boat currently has the old closed turnbuckle fittings and seriously needs upgrading. I have found a kit on CatalinaDirect that is around $800 for everything. However, I would like to do this myself and while I'm at it increase the headstay, backstay and upper shrouds to 9/32 (from 1/4) and increase the size of the forward and aft stays to 1/4 (from 1/8) so I put together a kit of my own. The price difference is staggering. 3x the price to do it myself. Here is what I put together;

hay12CTE932 Hayn Hi-MOD Eye - 9/32 In. Wire - 1/2 In Pin $51.52 8ea $412.16 
hay12CTS932 Hayn Hi-MOD Stud 9/32 In. Wire - 1/2 In. UNF Thread $48.27 4ea $193.08 
HAY12TFBSS932 Hayn Jaw to Swage Turnbuckle 9/32 wire x 1/2 pin $69.66 4ea $278.64 
hay12CTE14 Hayn Hi-MOD Eye - 1/4 In. Wire - 1/2 In Pin $48.85 4ea $195.40 
hay12CTS14 Hayn Hi-MOD Stud 1/4 In. Wire - 1/2 In. UNF Thread $40.86 4ea $163.44 
HAY12TFBSS14 Hayn Jaw to Swage Turnbuckle 1/4 wire x 1/2 pin $66.00 4ea $264.00 
SCH8447 Schaefer Triangle Plate, 1/2 In. Pin $73.28 1ea $73.28 
rig9321X19 Loos Type 316 1x19 Rigging Wire - 9/32 In. $2.60 212ea $551.20 
rig141X19 Loos Type 316 1x19 Rigging Wire - 1/4 In. $2.21 104ea $229.84 
Total: $2361.04 


Is this equipment that much better than the CD kit? Why does it cost so much more and is it worth the extra cost?


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

I don't see that you're comparing like to like and you've increased the size of everything so the cost would naturally be more from that standpoint. Are you pricing your kit from a source other than CD?


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I did the Cal 29 with topshelf stuff for 1100 dollars in material and i sure cant see were 3X the price would have changed anything as it is perfect


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

I'm also thinking that CD buys in bulk so the cost to them is less to begin with, where alan would not be.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm not a standing rigging pro. Are you upsizing for a good technical reason or does it just feel better? Generally speaking, one doesn't want more weight aloft than necessary. The kit sounds like a pretty good deal to me. If it wears a tad sooner, you can certain afford to buy it again forthe difference in cost. However, I expect it's longevity is just fine.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

A 1/4 inch circle has an area of 0.049 square inches

A 5/16 inch circle has an area of 0.076 square inches.

The increase in size and, therefore weight, will be 56% !! That's pretty significant. 

Engineers can check my math.


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## wise4 (Oct 26, 2010)

Just finished replacing my standing rigging (1980 cat 30). I simply ordered rigging slightly larger than needed with swaged (sp?) eyes on the top and used Norseman fittings on the bottom... I also replaced the old closed turnbuckles and upgraded the lower shroud chainplates and replaced the upper shroud chainplates. I considered going with beefier rigging but in the end just couldn't come up with a real reason to do so. 

Btw... I replaced the lower shrouds and chainplates while the boat was in it's slip.... The upper pins on all of it was pretty much welded in place and required a grinder (cut off wheel) to remove. 

Because of a failed shaft seal, I ended up hauling the boat and went ahead and stepped the mast at the same time - so all the upper stuff was done on the ground  . Ended up keeping the boat out for 7 days to finish the rigging, rewire the mast, repaint the mast, replace and install antenna's, lighting, misc hardware, replace shaft seal with a new PSS, replace prop, complete bottom job, compound wax and buff sides.... And a few other things... 


A very tough week... The only thing not DIY was the bottom job... Just didn't have the time and energy left....

I don't recall exactly what I paid for the rigging materials as I bought it a couple pieces at a time over a few months.... I do recall Catalina direct was slightly higher than some other online rigging outfits... 

Curious... Why do you think you need beefier rigging? And do you have the upgraded lower shroud chainplates?


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

DRFerron: I assembled the kit off of Hayn website.

Minniewaska: It is recommended on the C-30 to go 1 size larger on the upper shrouds, forestay and backstay. The original size wires stretch to much. In addition, I overbuild everything...to a point. I am aware of the increased weight aloft but the stronger hardware (1/2" pins) give me piece of mind. I tend to take my boats places where they should not be so I like to be able to trust my parts.

Wise4: I have new chainplates, upgraded shroud chainplates, new tangs and am in the process of replacing my bulkheads with 5/8" marine grade stuff.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

alanr77 said:


> ......Minniewaska: It is recommended on the C-30 to go 1 size larger on the upper shrouds, forestay and backstay. The original size wires stretch to much. In addition, I overbuild everything...to a point. I am aware of the increased weight aloft but the stronger hardware (1/2" pins) give me piece of mind. I tend to take my boats places where they should not be so I like to be able to trust my parts......


Okay. I'm unfamiliar with the recommendation. Stretch sounds to me like a performance issue, more than durability. Your comment about going places and pice of mind sounds more like you want durability. I could be wrong.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

5, C-30s owners in my YC, none have ever mentioned stretching as a prob. Seriously. There is overkill and there is over the top. Save the $ and get the package from CD. You will still have a bolt on keel, spade rudder, big thin plastic windows, which limit your offshore capabilities. 
Jus sayin...


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

Just to explore all your options you might want to check out PBO. My buddy has a 32' that is rigged with it... total weight = 17lbs


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## QuickMick (Oct 15, 2009)

here is a decent article. not affiliated yadda yadda
Is It Time to Upgrade to PBO? | Sailing World


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Mick, that the stuff they are going to use for the "space elevator"? LOL 
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2000/ast07sep_1/

can't wrap my mind around a --,000 miles long carbon fiber "cable" for some reason. lol


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

try
Rigging And Hardware - Rigging Only's Online Store
Several SN members have given it high marks for price and service.


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

"The small diameter wire used for shrouds and stays stretches excessively, according to some owners, making it difficult to maintain headstay tension. Going up one wire diameter, at least on forestay and backstay, is suggested by many owners." Practical Salior.

I have seen this first hand. 

This is not a "bluewater" should I take my C-30 offshore thread. And my windows are glass, not plastic.  I am asking why there is such a big cost difference between the CD kit and the Hy-Mod setup. And if the cost is worth it, in your opinion. I have used the CD kit before on other Catalina's and had the swag terminals bend or become distorted in one season of use. (C-22). Not to mention, I like the idea of being able to repair the fittings myself. I was just amazed at the price difference and felt the need to post about it. 

I am assuming that the hy-mod fittings are of a much higher quality than the CD kit fittings...??? This boat IS used on the Coastal Ocean and does stay in saltwater year round, my slip is a few miles from the ocean and due to this, we sail in the ocean more often than not. Having said that, quality is very important to me. I don't want to replace the rigging every other year regardless of price. I would rather inspect it yearly and replace as needed. 

My question then, is what really makes the difference in price so extreme between the CD kit and the Hy-Mod DIY? As I said, I am assuming quality? But having never used the Hy-Mod equipment I don't know first hand. Thoughts? Thanks for the responses.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Direct to your question.....

No, it is not worth it. You don't need to repair the kit at all until you've replaced it three times over. I would get the kit.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Alan, have you tried posing this question to the tech support folks at Hayn?

I spoke to them about some lifeline fittings at the Annapolis show and they mentioned the difference between their products and the quality of metal used in products made in China.

I don't know how much of an issue this really is (or where CD stuff is made). But then I haven't heard any stories of rigs coming down because of Chinese wire...


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Minnewaska: thanks, I am on the fence about this and was shocked to see how expensive the HMod stuff was. 

Jim: I haven't heard of any outright failures either but figured I'd ask. 

There always seems to be a fine line between buying quality parts and spending way to much for something that is overbuilt. I'm still on the fence but just wanted to hear some opinions on the cost vrs reliability regarding standing rigging.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Think about another cool upgrade you will make to your boat with the money saved and this decision will become easy.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Always wondered what these look like 









They rent them too. WireTeknik Roll Swagers - Hayn Cable Tools

Aren't they insured by loyds of London? I think it was Hayn.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Harbor fright makes a knock off connector


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Harbor freight.....lmao. Denise, that is a serious looking swage tool. $$$$


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## wise4 (Oct 26, 2010)

I love harbor freight..... However, There's no way I would ever use one of their connectors to hold up a mast.... 

LOL....


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## wise4 (Oct 26, 2010)

I'm curious... If you go with the oversized wire... Are you going to tension it to the original spec or the correct spec for the new wire? 

As a side note... It's scary how so many sailboat owners think it safer to under tension their rigging....


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Just to throw it out there again, I'd contact Hayn and see what they have to say.

Then you have real information to weigh in making your decision.

If you do please post their response.


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

wise4: I don't tension my rig to any standard spec. I use the recommended range of tension via Loos gauge to get into the ballpark then tune the mast both static and while underway. I agree with the under tension issue but at the same time I have seen boats that you could play music using the shrouds. And then they wonder why they get stress cracks around the base of the mast. There is really no need to go up in size for the rigging on my boat, other than the fact that I tend to bulletproof everything. My OCD forces me to double reverse clamp everything, even above the waterline hoses. I put backing plates under the mounts for my bimini....OCD is expensive. But at least when I drink to much I can trip and fall into my bimini and not have to worry about it ripping out of the base and falling into the water. Instead I bounce off of it and I fall into the water...Someone earlier noted that the cost difference is due to the size difference; however, the cost difference between 1/4" hardware and wires and 9/32" is not much. The strength difference is quite a bit. What I didn't expect was the cost difference between the CD kit and others. However, I did notice that even by staying with the same size 1x19 wire, the cost difference between the CD kit and the Hi-mod kit is alot.


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Jim, I will as soon as I come up with the right questions to ask. I would imagine that of course they will tell me their stuff is better than what CD uses, and that it's worth evey penny. But I need to know why it's better and why I should pay twice as much. As a fellow C-30 owner I am sure you believe that these are generally well put together boats and that they respond favorably to well thought out upgrades.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

alanr77 said:


> But I need to know why it's better and why I should pay twice as much.


There's your start for the questions to ask.

Soon as I catch my breath over this re-power, I'll move onto other upgrades and look into the rigging myself.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Alan

Were you comparing 316 with 316 wire in your pricing? That could account for a fairly large difference in pricing.

I would think going up slightly in wire size would be ok, but certainly not double as you want for some wires (lowers). The only good reason to upsize wire is if the original was wrong which is not very likely. Catalina made over 7000 30's and we would certainly know about it by now.

Wire should be tensioned to about 15% of the wire's breaking load. By going to heavier wire there will be a great deal more tension on the entire boat.

Wire (1 x 19) will stretch the same regardless of its diameter if tensioned to the same percentage of its breaking load. In other words 1/8" wire at 5% of its working load will stretch the same amount (about 1mm for each 2 meters) as 1/2" wire at 5% of its breaking load. The only way your old rigging stretched too much is if it was over tensioned.

You stated you have heavier chainplates, tangs, etc. But you have the same boat. All heavier wire will do when tensioned properly is bend the hull more. And there is nothing you can do about that.

Here is the best rigging guide I have seen, from Selden - they know a bit about rigging. It is a pdf you can download for free. http://www.riggingandsails.com/pdf/selden-tuning.pdf

The best 1 x 19 type 316 rigging wire available today is from Korea. Any good rigger can confirm this. Loos in the US is getting out of the rigging wire business and the riggers I have talked to state that the Korean wire is better than Loos wire as well.

And here is a fact from the Selden guide:


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I like redundancy myself. Like when we would AC and Heat a large building. better multiple smaller units then one large. 
On the boat; instead of a split back stay why's not a double? and OK on the headstay for larger. Shrouds, well maybe a secondary Lighter ones for the masthead then replacing the OEM with heavier? 
And, emergency rudder, back up gps, back up radar, port and window storm boards, extra coffee, waterproof undies...


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

alanr77 said:


> Doing the research on replacing my standing rigging. The boat currently has the old closed turnbuckle fittings and seriously needs upgrading. I have found a kit on CatalinaDirect that is around $800 for everything. However, I would like to do this myself and while I'm at it increase the headstay, backstay and upper shrouds to 9/32 (from 1/4) and increase the size of the forward and aft stays to 1/4 (from 1/8) so I put together a kit of my own. The price difference is staggering. 3x the price to do it myself. Here is what I put together;
> 
> hay12CTE932 Hayn Hi-MOD Eye - 9/32 In. Wire - 1/2 In Pin $51.52 8ea $412.16
> hay12CTS932 Hayn Hi-MOD Stud 9/32 In. Wire - 1/2 In. UNF Thread $48.27 4ea $193.08
> ...


The Hayn fittings are mechanical. The Catalina kit is all swages. Mechanical fittings are always more expensive. Usually more than twice the cost of swage fittings. Whether they are Stalok, Norseman or whatever.

Is it worth it? It's a matter of opinion. If it helps you sleep better at night, maybe it's worth it.

Also, I have some doubts about the Catalina kit price. I would like to see it broken down. Are you sure that it includes new turnbuckles?


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Riggers (Brion Toss for one) don't like twin backstays as the tension in each is almost impossible to get exactly the same and it tries to twist the masthead.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Catalina direct's kit is swaged top and bottom but does include turnbuckles and toggles. Catalina Direct: Standing Rigging Kit for C-30 Standard Rig


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

mitiempo said:


> Riggers (Brion Toss for one) don't like twin backstays as the tension in each is almost impossible to get exactly the same and it tries to twist the masthead.


Twin backstays are almost always attached to the mast head with a diamond plate and toggle. So they really don't tend to twist the masthead even if tensioned unequally. The tighter one just pulls down the corner of the diamond plate.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

So 2 backstays that are relying on a single toggle - seems like the weak point would be the toggle.

You really don't have redundancy with one attachment point do you?


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

mitiempo said:


> So 2 backstays that are relying on a single toggle - seems like the weak point would be the toggle.
> 
> You really don't have redundancy with one attachment point do you?


No, you don't. Though the toggle should be equal to the task. For instance, in the case of the OP, with 1/4" or 9/32" wire, you would want a diamond plate with 1/2" holes in the bottom corners and a 5/8" hole in the top and you would probably go with a 5/8" toggle to attach to the masthead. 
The problem is that the mast head was probably designed for a 1/2" eye. 
That's why it's not usually a real good idea to start upgrading the wire sizes. 
You will always end up with a weak link and it is usually not the wire or the fittings. It's almost always the chainplates. 
Usually little or nothing is gained by upping the wire diameter. Except weight of course.


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

mitietempo: I do believe they were all 316. Good link to the CD kit, that is what I was looking at. I really don't like swaged fittings whether they are done right or not....because...I cannot inspect them. I tend to like inspecting things all the time. Keeps me from having to swim. 

Knothead: if not mistaken I think I read somewhere on here that you were/are a rigger. Now looking at the price difference between the two setups you can understand my scepticism of the CD kit parts. I use my boats hard and stay out when I shouldn't. Not saying the CD kit is junk, far from it, just thinking that the price difference my be worth it for safety sake. 

Coming out of this I am starting to think I should use 1/4" all around instead of the 9/32 on certain parts. The point made about the boat being the same holds true. Though when my bulkheads are finished I would imagine the boat will flex less. (I am tabbing them properly I.E. rubber between the hull and wood and then glassing in around the wood to spread the load and reduce the possibility of hard spots.) I did this with my C-22 with good results...in addition, the screwed in bulkheads will be through bolted with backing plates.) It's one of those "Im in here so I might as well make it stronger" deals. No real reason or need other than I enjoy doing this kind of work and it won't hurt the boat. 

Most rig failures that I have seen are the result of some part other than the wire itself failing. Tangs, turnbuckles and so on. This was the reason I wanted to use beefed up hardware. The current pins on the toggles are 1/4". I don't like these, hence wanting to upgrade to 1/2" pins.

I hadn't thought about the increased strain on the boat from the larger rigging wire. 

Again, thanks for the replies so far. I really enjoy hearing opinions as it allows me to see things from different angles.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Going from a 1/4 to 1/2 pin would give a 400% +++ boost BUT your gonna break or bend the boat by the time you wind up the bigger wire to the advised 15 % preload


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

alanr77 said:


> mitietempo: I do believe they were all 316. Good link to the CD kit, that is what I was looking at. I really don't like swaged fittings whether they are done right or not....because...I cannot inspect them. I tend to like inspecting things all the time. Keeps me from having to swim.
> 
> Knothead: if not mistaken I think I read somewhere on here that you were/are a rigger. Now looking at the price difference between the two setups you can understand my scepticism of the CD kit parts. I use my boats hard and stay out when I shouldn't. Not saying the CD kit is junk, far from it, just thinking that the price difference my be worth it for safety sake.
> 
> ...


I think you are mistaken about your clevis pin size being 1/4". The smallest clevis pin diameter that you can use for 1/4" wire is 3/8". That would be for an aircraft eye or fork. A 1/4" marine eye uses 1/2" clevis pins. The same for 9/32".
As far as the price difference between the swage and mechanical fittings. Don't make the mistake of thinking that has any relationship to their strength. A swage fitting is stronger than the wire. The last time I researched this, mechanical fittings are not quite as strong as the wire. Though plenty strong enough. 
The primary advantage of the mechanical fitting is that it can be installed by the end user rather than having to have to use a rigger with a swage machine. 
They also can be reused and as you mentioned, disassembled for inspection. However, as I am wont to point out, a swage fitting that was pressed on a good machine, (I use a Wire Technic like the one shown earlier), will last as long as the wire anyway. So by the time your swage fitting develops a crack, the wire should be replaced anyway. Whether it's a swage fitting or a mechanical, the wire has a usable life expectancy. Your mechanical fitting may not be as susceptible to cracking in the same way as a swage fitting, but I have seen plenty of them corrode to the point that they were dangerous and certainly not reusable.

In my opinion, mechanical fittings should be carried by every cruiser for emergency repairs. But unless the owner is going to do all the work themselves, thereby eliminating the need to use a rigging shop, it doesn't make a lot of sense to use mechanical fittings to rerig. 
Unless you just have too much money laying around.


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Point taken, thanks for the advice. For the difference in cost, I could buy two sets of rigging and keep spares. Or, like you said, keep a few Hi-mods in the oh-sh!t box in case I need to make repairs. If what you said is fact, why would anyone spend an additional $1300 on mechanical fittings? I really like the idea of being able to do the work myself, but, it is becoming difficult to justify. AR


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Alan,
I would guess sizing the rigging is a series of trade-offs and balance like most things in boat design. Some of which have come up in this thread, but some may not have.

You might try contacting Catalina. Pose the question that you're thinking of upgrading the wire size, what other parts of the boat will be affected by that change?

Jim


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

Island Time: I will definitely research it quite a bit before making a final decision. The rigging job is coming up soon hence the reason I started putting out "feelers" to check my thinking. Currently getting my butt kicked by a window reseal kit, The man who designed the way old C-30 windows seal should be shot. I did notice that my upper shrouds are bigger than my f/r shrouds. I wonder if the suggestion to enlarge the wire was for older/original C-30's. I am certain that my rigging is not original. It may have been already upgraded at some point. 1/4" on the forestay, backstay and upper shrouds, then 1 size down for the lower...


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Alan, you piqued my curiosity. I did a Google search and didn't come up with any reports of standing rigging failures on early C30's or any recommendations to upgrade the rigging. About the only thing I could find or that I've heard of is upgrading the wooden spreaders on early boats to the later model aluminum spreaders.

Nearly 7,000 of these boats have been built and sailed all over the world -- many in more demanding conditions than their target coastal cruising market. With so many boats out there if there was a known problem or a need to upgrade the rigging there'd be info all over the web.

The C30 is a pretty tough boat. I'd replace the rigging with the stock sizes, and yes the uppers are heavier than the lowers. The link below will take you to the owners manual for your boat. Page 6 of the PDF has the rigging schedule for your boat.

*C30 MKI Owners Manual*

BTW, Catalina Direct also has kits with Norseman fittings. That would be a better comparison with the Hayn fittings. I still think it would be worth an email to Hayn to ask why the price difference between their product and the Catalina Direct kits. If there is a difference in wire quality that can be quantified you can make an informed decision.

Best of luck,
Jim


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Alan, this might also come in handy

*C30 MKI Parts List*

.


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## mitiempo (Sep 19, 2008)

Alan

What many people do if they are re-rigging themselves is get swages for the upper end professionally done with the wire a foot overlength and install mechanical fittings (Hayn, Sta-Lok, or Norseman) on the lower end only. It keeps the cost down and swages are a lot less likely to have corrosion problems at the top end.


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## alanr77 (Jul 24, 2009)

The information on the increased wire diameter came from a Practical Sailor article on the C-30. It sparked my curiosity as well, hence the troubleshooting. Doing what you did, a google search, I too was unable to come up with anything else. The Norseman kit is being considered from CD. However, Knothead made a good point regarding the longevity of a properly done swage.


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