# "Motor kings"--don't we sail any more?



## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Okay, I'm being an armchair admiral on vacation, enjoying a week in Jensen Beach where from my motel window I look out over the Indian River/ICW.

Beautiful cool morning stiff 15-18 outta the NNW, perfect for southbounders to sail and make good time. the nearby bridges are new and high-up, no waiting for the average mast.

So why are the 40-something-foot cruisers motoring south, no sail up at all? They love their engines, and breathing their own exhaust that much?

Even shorthanded (or a delivery crew?), you could at least unroll that jib, huh? Give the motor a little help and save some fuel? Or put the main up, you could broad reach all day.

Nortbound, I get it. But southbound?

What up?


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## my900ss (Sep 25, 2010)

I have not been in the ICW, nor have I sailed a 40 foot boat... but most video I have seen of the ICW shows it to be shallow and narrow. Not really ideal for sailing, so it might just be not that you couldn't do it, just that its not worth the effort? Hows that for "I have to frame of reference but here's an opinion anyway"


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Well, if it's a draft problem, then it's a problem under power as well. And i wouldn't want to ground with the main up and wind behind me, but with roller-furl jib, less of a problem in dousing sail.

Not sure it's a draft issue. Is it?

Anyway, just saw a 30?-footer slide by wing-and-wing. That's more concentration needed than what I was talking about, but well done whoever you are. And a couple of bigger boys with jibs up. Ah, I feel much better now.. 

(it's so easy to sail other peoples' boats from shore, eh? ;-)


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## my900ss (Sep 25, 2010)

I was thinking with a motor you can choose where to be in the channel, when sailing you need to at tack to and fro across your desired course... in that case draft can be an issue in the ICW no? I myself would put the jib up and try to motor sail as the Jib on my Catalina 27 does not intrude on the cockpit as the main sail boom does. I.E. nothing gained nothing lost.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

If my memory serves me correctly, that segment of the ICW is nothing more than a narrow ditch through the flats. You don't have to stray very far out of the channel to be hard aground. I'm kinda' gutsy when it comes to this stuff, though, and with that much breeze I would have at least had the jib out. Ironically, this fall, when the sunbirds were headed down Chesapeake Bay for the Norfolk, 95-percent of the boats I saw were not sailing, even when the winds were favorable. Instead, they were motoring along the Chesapeake's main shipping channel as fast as they could. Didn't make any sense to me at all.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

I see this often in the Chesapeake. I'm quite the a$$hole about it too. If they are close enough, I'll holler over "Hey, you know those white, flappy things will make the boat go too, right? And they're free to use?"

Yeah, I've gotten some looks.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We frequently see boats motoring in perfectly fine sailing conditions.... and always 'shake our heads.....' But who knows? Schedules to keep, charterers unfamiliar, nervous crew/passengers, 'too windy', don't like downwind, don't like heeling (but you gotta wonder 'why a sailboat then?")

It's not gonna go away, I'm afraid....


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

So, what percentage of those tubs had full cockpit enclosures, and yellow jerry cans lining the rail? (grin)

Yeah, it's pretty sad, but the simple fact is that a depressingly small percentage of East coast snowbirds actually sail... Maybe unfurl a jib while motoring down the Ditch, that's generally about it...

Sailing appears to be too much work for most, and given the manner in which most cruising boats have been laden with all the crap one "needs" to go off cruising, they'll perform far better under power, than under sail... 

there's no reason one couldn't be sailing through there - though the channel is narrow, it's as straight as an arrow... On a day such as you describe, however, it's a mystery why anyone would be doing that stretch inside, anyway... Life doesn't get much better than a sail down the beach between Ft. Pierce and Palm Beach in 15-18 knots out of the NW...


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

One big advantage to motoring is if you soft ground, a quick reverse will get you loose. Hard to do that if sailing. Narrow ditch full of traffic = hard to sail in. No room to tack, slows you down and upsets power boaters stacking up behind you.

I've seen people sail the ICW, but you have to be ready to dowse sails and change course in a hurry. Also structures along shoreline block wind.

Better if the weather's good, just go out and sail the coast.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Some of you guys keep speaking of tacking in the ICW.  In the OP's example, we're talking about sailing DOWNWIND. There is no tacking, and possibly not even any gybing.

I think we're all onboard with the fact that you don't sail upwind, in the middle of busy traffic in the ICW.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Don't be too harsh. A lot of going down the ICW is about schedules, marinas and anchorages so I think many people take the question out of the schedule and motor away. I personally would not do that when winds are favorable, but then I don't have to worry about where I'm going to park a large boat when it gets dark and there are no marinas readily available. 
Once when heading home, my engine died in the ICW with a nose-on wind, so I put up the main and tacked back and forth 'til I exited the ICW. I was a little nervous about meeting a barge and push boat, especially a double wide. But I didn't and it was good to know that I could make way and keep a schedule tacking is such a tight area.
John


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

I work in Government Cut in Miami on a Tug and I see Cruiser's, all day everyday motoring down wind!!! I don't get it. One out of a hundred is sailing down wind!! It drives me nut's because I just want to be out sailing when I'm at work! It is real easy for me to sail those boat's while sitting in the wheel house, what do I know, guess they have fuel to burn and places to be.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

It's their boat, their trip, their decision. They have their reasons, which are valid to them, and that's the only person they have to be valid to. 

It's one thing, to go out for a day, a weekend or even a couple of weeks. It's something else when it's what you do every day.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

PBzeer said:


> It's their boat, their trip, their decision. They have their reasons, which are valid to them, and that's the only person they have to be valid to.
> 
> It's one thing, to go out for a day, a weekend or even a couple of weeks. It's something else when it's what you do every day.


TRUE. I've Deliverd boat's all over the world, and I motor sail as much as I can. Time is money in those situation's. If I have enough fuel, that engine is on.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

nola, its the ICW. Step away from the coffee and get a grip on yourself! Intoxication is mandatory on the ICW in Florida, so as long as you have to run the engine to cool the drinks, you might as well move the boat with it. And it is way easier to hold your drinks and motor at the same time, than to try fussing with sails whilst holding those same drinks.

Then if you're in a no-wake zone, or manatee waters, or shorthanded because the other crew are down below mixing mai-tai's...You know, lots of good reasons to use the iron genny.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

i like to use my motor when sailing a lot. when i didn't have a motor i didn't use it because i didn't have it but now i have it i motor off the mooring put the sails away start cleaing up a bit while motoring in to the mooring. the winds to light and i wanna get some were i just turn on the motor and go.


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## Rockter (Sep 11, 2006)

Even a little sail up really does save a lot of fuel.
The stuff is like £1.35 a litre here, too (about $2 a litre).


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## RealityCheck (Jun 2, 2007)

I lived in Palm Beach and Brevard County for more than 30 years and have used the ICW from North of Titusville to the Keys on a number of occasions in a mix of boat types. For the largest part of that time I had a C26 in the Rockledge area in Brevard County. That part of the ICW is also known as the Indian River or Indian River Lagoon and for the most part is one of the few locations along the ICW where it is usually reasonably good sailing, with depths for much larger widths along the Indian River than most of the ICW which is often no more than a narrow ditch where anyone sailing would not be normally advisable due to traffic and and lack of space to do much of anything... basically it would often be just a stupid thing to do as the winds can not get to you through the heavy growth that surrounds much of the ICW when it is a simple ditch. It is often not worth the effort to get sails up for an hour or so only to have to take them down again. When traffic is heavy it is illogical to attempt it in many locatons.... probably most locations within the state of Florida.

Even Lake Worth, in Palm Beach, has spoil areas that are easy to miss in what other wise appears to be deep water and inbetween you have many narrow bridges such as the one near Hobe Sound which at the time I used it was still a swing bridge with a clearance of about 15 feet in the closed position. Not all ICW bridges are of sufficient height to get a sail boat under and at night some remain poorly marked. 

Unless you are on a pleasure trip for a few hours or the day, most seasonal traffic is attempting to get some place other than where they are. Often with short crew and very often with one or two people aboard in the under 50 foot group. While sailing may be a nice thing to consider, getting to a place on scheduel is generally the overriding rule.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

well gas isn't a issue with a 3hp lol


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## ArcherBowman (Jul 1, 2009)

smallboatlover said:


> well gas isn't a issue with a 3hp lol


Well, now. That depends how long you're out. It's five hours from Knoxville to Concord, and I run dry about 15 minutes short of the refueling station.


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## GMFL (Jun 9, 2010)

Rockter said:


> Even a little sail up really does save a lot of fuel.
> The stuff is like £1.35 a litre here, too (about $2 a litre).


You can't get Litre's here, they were outlawed in the states back in the '80's.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Here's a nickel that says most are delivery crews for the snow birds. The boss is paying the fuel bills. Just easier to motor.


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## fallard (Nov 30, 2009)

There are a lot of lazy sailors for sure, but some folks are trying to keep a schedule (drawbridges, for example) or simply trying to put miles under the keel on a very long trip.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Here's a nickel that says most are delivery crews for the snow birds. The boss is paying the fuel bills. Just easier to motor.


I would doubt that... The percentage of cruising sailboats being run south to Florida by professional crews is actually rather small, and most delivery skippers would be running outside on such a day, anyway... (unless their final destination was between Ft Pierce and North Palm Beach, of course - though still rather unlikely)

Sure, one can make all the excuses of schedules, restricted bridges, and so on - and those can be valid at times, of course... But, they still won't explain why one routinely sees cruisers motoring in absolutely perfect sailing conditions in places like the Alligator, Pungo, and Neuse Rivers - wide open stretches of the ICW, with the nearest restricted bridge still 2 or 3 days away...

In my observation, sailing is a very low priority among the vast majority of East coast snowbirds... Long after transiting the last restricted bridge, most will still wait for a flat calm day to cross the Stream under power, and continue to motor throughout the Bahamas... Over my last few winters in the Bahamas, for example, I could count on one hand the number of times I've seen another cruising boat flying a spinnaker... Probably just me, but if you're still trying to keep to a schedule after you make it into the Bahamas, something's not right... (grin)

People like the _IDEA_ of cruising under sail, but the reality, well... not so much... I think a lot of folks out there would be far happier in trawlers, but it seems to take many an awful long time, and plenty of miles, before they finally figure out that sailboats really don't make very good powerboats, and wind up making the switch to something more practical for the way they actually use their boats...


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

While sailing through the Singapore Straits a few days ago on a beautiful ream reach, there they were, 2 local sailboats motoring along, just inshore of us...I suspect they had a xmas dinner to get to. For us, it was baked beans on toast in a rolly roadstead anchorage. But we were able to see the fireworks!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JonE, you are probably right. A professional crew would more likely be outside, unless conditions were boiling. Nevertheless, in my personal experience, those crews motor far more than sail. At best, I see the main up for stability. Easier to point or run, less work, better visibility in close quarters, etc, etc.

The first delivery I ever had done needed the mast stepped prior to departure. The yard could step it but not tune the rig. As I was scrambling to get a rigger there and coordinating with the skipper, I can recall how stunned I was when he said, "don't worry about it, we're not planning to sail her". Instead, they put about 100 hrs on the iron genny. In the end, they were a great crew, took great care of her and arrived early. I've become used to the process.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Well, I do my best not to be "that guy".

First of all, I can't stand the drone of the engine.

Second, I'm not all that excited about wracking up hours on the engine, so that I am forced to do regular maintenance at more frequent intervals, spend more money, and shave years off of the rebuild interval.

Third, for me, one of my motivations for buying a sailboat in the first place was to consume less fossil fuels, while still being able to get out on the water.

Lastly, sailboats ride poorly under engine, regardless of whether it's an outboard or an inboard engine. The motion is uncomfortable to me and requires much more active steering. When the boat is being propelled _as it was designed to be_, the ride is smoother and takes less effort to operate the boat. (unless I'm short tacking upwind)

I do my best _not_ to be on a schedule that forces me to run the engine for prolonged intervals.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

The ICW is not a destination. Heading south on the ICW is a way to get to a destination and you want to get there as quickly as possible. When We use the ICW we put out the head sail whenever possible but only to increase speed. On the ocean such as crossing to the Bahamas when possible it's nice to be able to put up sails, but motor sailing, as it not only increases speed but helps stabalize the boat. Cruising is destination sailing and that's all about getting there. The crossing to the Abacos is usually done with the first leg from Lake Worth to Great Sale which is 90 nautical miles or about 15 hours. Winds generally do not favour the west to east crossing because they are more than not from the north or from the east. The best bet is a smooth motor crossing.
Cruising under sail requires a commitment to sailing rather than a commitment to a destination but most cruisers make the commitment to a destination to a safe harbour or anchorage for the night. Many sailors switch to trawlers but the costs are still considerablely more. My boat under power uses 0.6 gallons per hour compare to 3 or 4 gallons per hour of a very economical trawler not to mention the stabilizing effect of a sailboat especially with sails up.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

I'm with PBzeer on this one ... so many reasons why someone who is making miles might not find it practical to sail, for all the reasons mentioned above. For us on most of the ICW, sailing is for FUN, and the motor is for a destination.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Some of you guys keep speaking of tacking in the ICW. In the OP's example, we're talking about sailing DOWNWIND. There is no tacking, and possibly not even any gybing.
> 
> I think we're all onboard with the fact that you don't sail upwind, in the middle of busy traffic in the ICW.


All the parts of the ICW I've seen are rather curvy. There are a few sections where it crosses a big bay that it would be a shame not to sail in, but those are few and far between. as for those that own a sail boat, but would rather run the engine, I'm willing to trade for my current power boat, and I promise to sail whenever practical.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

ebs001 said:


> The ICW is not a destination. Heading south on the ICW is a way to get to a destination and you want to get there as quickly as possible.


That definitely appears to be the conventional wisdom, but I really think it' s a pity that so many appear to feel that way...

Of course, much of the waterway can be tedious and boring, and can only be transited under power... But there is much of the trip that is well worth stopping to smell the roses, and exploring beyond the beaten path, and enjoying the opportunity to do some sailing, as well...

Through North Carolina north of Beaufort, for example - Albemarle and Pamlico Sounds offer some of the finest inland sailing to be found anywhere along the east coast. It amazes me more cruisers don't take the opportunity to divert from the magenta line, make a break from the herd, and head down Pamlico Sound instead, and pop into places like Manteo or Wanchese, Ocracoke, or Swanquarter... Or, hang out for a while in a beautiful spot like Cape Lookout Bight, awaiting a window for the beautiful sail outside down to Wrightsville, or Charleston - rather than motoring down one of the most tedious sections of the ditch, that between Morehead and Wrightsville...

Again, in my observation, the powerboat mentality of straight-lining everything at a constant velocity that affords a predictable ETA is becoming increasingly prevalent among today's "sailors"... IMHO, electronic navigation and chartplotting is largely responsible for this shift, plugging in the next waypoint and interfacing the autopilot to take you there is not always compatible with sailing, but it really has become the predominant method many folks use to get from Points A to B these days...

But the big one is still that many cruisers have so completely degraded their boat's ability to perform under sail, to the point where it's not even remotely close to what it is under power... So, when the mission becomes to get south ASAP, it's a no-brainer that the engine is gonna come on...

For all this talk of schedules, however, or the ICW not being a destination in itself and more akin to a forced march simply to be endured, it never ceases to amaze me that more cruisers don't seem to appreciate that motoring down the 1,000 miles of the ICW is far and away the _SLOWEST_ and costliest way to get your boat from Norfolk to Miami... (grin)


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## ronspiker (Jun 27, 2001)

I think the a big piece of it is that many people are more concerned about the destination than the journey. It seems to be the American culture, when will we be there? How fast can we get there. Its why people drive the interstate instead of the side roads. I personally care more about the journey, and pulling into a marina is more about getting supplies than where I am. Thats not to say I don't enjoy the stops and soaking up the culture as that is part of the journey, but getting someplace unless its emergency is not the purpose. In addition I would guess that some of those people heading south are newbys and not that confident of their sailing abilities.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Some people on the forum have a quote in their signature lines that goes something like:

_Powerboating is all about getting to a destination. When you're sailing, you're already there."_

Or somesuch. WingNWing startles me because she seems to have adopted the powerboat mentality, saying that "sailing is for fun" implying that it's strictly secondary.

I agree with Jon. What's the rush to get to the islands, especially if you're retired?

The thought of motoring 1100 miles makes me cringe. I'd definitely motor inside the ICW to get safely past Cape Hatteras, but after that? Outside ride, as long as the weather is safe.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

i like my boat more when i have a motor on it. im not saying id don't like sailing or i wouldn't have a sailboat. i love sailing but motoring is fun to sometimes. exspecaily when your drifting into a sand bar. lol i like sailing but since i have a motor on my boat i sail a bit less and more a bit more. also i can motor out of the mooring get every thing ready to sail and use my tiller tamer to go striaght for a bit clean up the boat while im slowly getting to my desination. then when im done cleaning and every thigns ready to be raised and start sailing i start sailing and kill the motor.


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## CaptMikey (Dec 11, 2011)

tacking in the ICW is a real challenge in some places, shallow draft and not much room, plus you'll have some power boater coming up on your stern blowin his horn because he can't get around. if your headin south and there's a good wind blowin your way why would you want to be in the ICW anyway.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I'm at a loss to understand how anyone here knows better how a person should use their boat, than the person that is using it. You see someone pass by, knowing nothing about them, their plans, their situation, and then pass summary judgement on them because they don't conform to YOUR standards.

I've passed by folks who were motoring while I was sailing, and those who were sailing while I was motoring. We were each doing what WE chose to do, at that particular moment in time.

I'll repeat ... It's one thing to go out sailing. It's something else, to live a cruising life.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

We take our boat outside the bay into open water quite frequently. I've sailed the whole way in and out many times. However, the close quarter tacking and jibing can be tiresome and sometimes stressful with weekend boaters that don't seem to know rights of way, or charters that don't seem to care.

More often now, I motor out of the bay and hoist the sails nearing open water. Many times, I've motored passed boats under sail on my way back up the bay to our marina. I'm sure they've looked over with some sort of distain for my motoring. However, the odds are that I just got back from 5 hours of open water sailing and they haven't left the comfort of the bay all season.


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## Bamazeb (Sep 13, 2011)

It depends what the destination is......Would I rather spend an extra day Sailing the Ditch and one less day Sailing in the Bahamas????


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## LauderBoy (Mar 15, 2010)

It's a matter of focus. When I'm sailing I'm focusing on the sails. When I'm in the ICW I need to focus on the channel, power boat wakes, and bridges.

I used to sail the ICW, but after a hard grounding caused by focusing on bringing my sails down(I single handle), I just won't bother with it again. If I had a crew where I could be always at the helm while they managed the sails, then I'd do it, no problem.

If I had an electric drive I'd probably work with the jib out to conserve amps since those engines are so energy efficient on the low end. But a 27hp diesel engine just doesn't use enough fuel to make having the jib out as an assist worth the trouble and added distraction from navigating.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

PBzeer said:


> I'm at a loss to understand how anyone here knows better how a person should use their boat...


Are you trying to eliminate 99% of the posts on sailnet?


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## VK540 (May 6, 2011)

Sailboats motoring? Hmmmmm one of the reasons I had said I would never own one. Most of the sailboats I powered by never had sails up? Then one day, about 4 years ago I went sailing with a "real" sailor and the light bulb came on in my head! Yupper! I now own and *sail* a 38 foot sailboat.


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## ebs001 (May 8, 2006)

Cruising and day sailing are entirely different. "The joy is in the journey" doesn't always work when your cruising. Take a trip from the Abacos to Eleuthra for example, a trip of about 60 NM, you need to arrive in good light, not an option, and you have to do whatever it takes to ensure that you do arrive in good light. Leaving earlier is not to much fun as you have to go through a cut from the Sea of Abaco to the Atlantic and that can be very tricky. Cruising is work or you're dead. The joy is in the destination. Day sailing is play.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

PBzeer said:


> I'm at a loss to understand how anyone here knows better how a person should use their boat, than the person that is using it. You see someone pass by, knowing nothing about them, their plans, their situation, and then pass summary judgement on them because they don't conform to YOUR standards.


Yup...that pretty much sums it up for me.


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## VK540 (May 6, 2011)

ebs001 said:


> Cruising and day sailing are entirely different. "The joy is in the journey" doesn't always work when your cruising. Take a trip from the Abacos to Eleuthra for example, a trip of about 60 NM, you need to arrive in good light, not an option, and you have to do whatever it takes to ensure that you do arrive in good light. Leaving earlier is not to much fun as you have to go through a cut from the Sea of Abaco to the Atlantic and that can be very tricky. Cruising is work or you're dead. The joy is in the destination. Day sailing is play.


Yup! Makes sense. Hope I get to find out the difference for myself in a couple of years.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

good point people have made. It depends on the captain of the boat. It's all up to him he could be tired from sailing open waters and just wanna motor. Every one has a motor on there boat for a reason. you cant complain that other people are motoring you have the same option just rather sail. we all pretty much have motors on our boats. There, There for us to use them when we feel fit. 
Or in a rush to get to our desitnation before sunset. ive bin in the same shoes to have to get back to the mooring before sunset and there was only a light wind and the motor would move me faster to i oppted for the motor and drop the sails.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

PBzeer said:


> I'm at a loss to understand how anyone here knows better how a person should use their boat, than the person that is using it. You see someone pass by, knowing nothing about them, their plans, their situation, and then pass summary judgement on them because they don't conform to YOUR standards.


You're right, of course - but still, I'm at a loss to understand how many appear to get so defensive about this subject, whenever it arises... (grin, bigtime)

The original poster simply made an observation, and inquired as to why so many boats that day were motoring, in what appeared to be ideal sailing conditions... Some of us offered our opinions as to why this phenomenon has become so commonplace today... After years of bloviating on this issue on various sailing forums (my old friend Jeff H can confirm this (grin)), I've tried to confine my remarks to the realm of _observations_, as opposed to _judgements_ - but I obviously rarely succeed...

I have no way of proving this, of course, but I would assert that the average East coast snowbird likely spends less time sailing per mile traveled than any other cruising demographic, anywhere... That's simply a fact, IMHO... And, after observing this phenomenon for a few decades now, I happen to have some opinions on why it is so...

As I've said, I'm sure most cruisers very much like the _IDEA_ of sailing... I simply think many make the mistake of festooning their boats with an excessive amount of gear that inhibits their ability to sail well, and that results in a slippery slope of lessening performance and ease of sailhandling in exchange for perceived "cruising necessities", or creature comforts... I've cited cockpit enclosures on aft cockpit boats, to name one example, as an example of the sort of thing that results in sailing less, in the long run...

The absence of light air/free flying sails on so many cruising boats is another, in my opinion... NOTHING else so often makes the difference between the decision whether to sail or motor (not to mention the Fun Factor in flying a spinnaker or Code O), and yet in my observation very few cruisers appear to carry, or ever use, such sails... To me, that indicates that having the ability to keep a boat moving through the lighter stuff, simply isn't a real priority, they'd rather fire up the engine... NTTAWWT, of course... (grin)



ebs001 said:


> Cruising and day sailing are entirely different. "The joy is in the journey" doesn't always work when your cruising. Take a trip from the Abacos to Eleuthra for example, a trip of about 60 NM, you need to arrive in good light, not an option, and you have to do whatever it takes to ensure that you do arrive in good light. Leaving earlier is not to much fun as you have to go through a cut from the Sea of Abaco to the Atlantic and that can be very tricky. Cruising is work or you're dead. The joy is in the destination. Day sailing is play.


You're right, of course... Still, such an example fails to explain the phenomenon I see repeatedly - namely, people motoring in _IDEAL SAILING CONDITIONS_, when a destination could be just as easily reached under sail, as under power...

The saddest thing I routinely see out on the water, is a water bird - whether injured, or wings soaked with oil, or whatever - unable to fly free of the water... Always breaks my heart, to be at sea, and see such a beautiful creature skittering across the waves, struggling to get airborne...

Sure, I'll acknowledge there could be all manner of compelling reasons why this guy was motoring off the wind 20 miles out of Placencia, Belize, on this day of impossible perfection for a sailor... Yet still, whenever I see something like this, I can't help but see a bird without wings... (grin)


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I will admit that one of my fondest memories this past season was sailing out to Block Island and passing another sailboat that was motoring on bare poles. We were on our mooring for about 20 mins before they arrived and we had great fun with it all night long. Many would pretend they were the poor bastards wife and squeal "honey, why is that boat passing you when you have your engine on?"  Honestly, she did look like she was giving him the business as we passed.

JonE, why do you confine your observation to snow birds? Further, do you consider that the snow birds may sail the heck out of their boats when up north and down south, but are simply trying to get the very long transit behind them? Many are probably doing the migration for the 20th time.


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## smallboatlover (May 11, 2011)

hey minne i didn't know we were from around the same place kinda i sail skanonet river


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## neverknow (Feb 2, 2011)

ebs001 said:


> Many sailors switch to trawlers but the costs are still considerablely more. My boat under power uses 0.6 gallons per hour compare to 3 or 4 gallons per hour of a very economical trawler not to mention the stabilizing effect of a sailboat especially with sails up.


I have to disagree with you about the gals per hr for trawlers. If you are comparing boats the same size, length and speed there's little difference.

Even on our 32Ft Carver with twin 350HP gas engines if we slow down to 6-7Knts we are only burning about 2 gals a hour with both engines running. We can shut one down and make way at 5-6knts and burn 1 gal/hr. Our Carver is a planing hull,

A true trawler (displacement hull) with a small diesel will be about the same as a sail boat of similar size at hull speed.

The problems you run into is many so called trawlers are not true displacement hulls and have large engines that push them beyond hull speed. This in return cost a lot in fuel.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Look over there! They're motoring instead of sailing!









And did you hear that; they're not listening to the right music!









Did you see that! They're not drinking the right beer!









Quick call the PC Sailing Police!









Someone tell those people to stop enjoying their boat the wrong way! :laugher

Oh for God's sake...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> JonE, why do you confine your observation to snow birds? Further, do you consider that the snow birds may sail the heck out of their boats when up north and down south, but are simply trying to get the very long transit behind them? Many are probably doing the migration for the 20th time.


Well, because they're the "type" of cruiser I know best, for one... And, because their migration pattern, as noted by the original poster, is what inspired this discussion, as well...

Anything's possible, of course, but I'm not buying the notion that many cruisers might "sail the heck out of their boats" in their respective summer and winter sailing grounds, but would still choose to motor across Albemarle Sound in a 20-25 knot NW breeze, rolling from rail to rail, with not a scrap of sail unfurled, during the course of their trip south... And, in my travels throughout the Bahamas (although I admittedly tend to favor the more remote areas, and generally try to avoid the places more heavily visited by cruisers), I sure don't see much evidence of too many folks sailing the heck out of their boats at that end of the trip, either...

As for those who've made the trip numerous times before, I would think that if sailing were really a priority for them, they would be even more inclined to avoid motoring down the ICW - they are the ones that have seen it all before, after all, and might at least have some familiarity with various inlets, best stretches to avoid, and so on...

I know this will fall on deaf ears, but I'll try to make something clear, anyway... I really don't _CARE_ whether someone else chooses to motor instead of sailing, that's their own business, of course... However, having spent a significant portion of my life running boats up and down the East coast, and loving sailing and cruising my own boat as much as I do, the manner in which others choose to use their boats, and how that might reflect current sailing or industry trends, is most definitely a subject that _INTERESTS_ me... I've witnessed first hand how cruising up and down the East coast has changed over the past 35 years, and despite all the technical advances in boats and equipment, the significant easing of sailhandling and reefing, the people I see out there are definitely sailing less than they used to... I simply think it's an interesting topic for discussion, is all...


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## neverknow (Feb 2, 2011)

This thread is somewhat disturbing to me. Here's why.

Our plans are in 2 yrs to retire and live aboard. Right now we are stuck in Indiana and boat on Lake Michigan. A few yrs ago our plans were to get a trawler because of the fuel savings over our Carver 3227.

When fuel prices hit $4.00+ at the docks back in 2008 we began looking into sail boats. Since than we have been to Annapolis boat shows 3 times and had the great pleasure to sail while in Pensacola. We are convinced sail is the way to go. We've always been budget boaters even on our carver we take it slow and easy to save fuel.

So now we are finding out most cruisers don't sail much if at all?? Makes me wonder why have a sail boat at all? As I posted in our previous post there's not much fuel savings between sail vs trawler if you don't use the sails.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

As one of my students pointed out, "Those under power are trying to get to a destination; those under sail are already there."


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

> So now we are finding out most cruisers don't sail much if at all??


What difference does it make to YOUR plans, what other people do?

I motor, I sail, and on occasion, have just spent a day sailing without going anywhere but back where I started from.

It's your life, live it to please yourself, not somebody else.


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## neverknow (Feb 2, 2011)

PBzeer said:


> What difference does it make to YOUR plans, what other people do?
> 
> I motor, I sail, and on occasion, have just spent a day sailing without going anywhere but back where I started from.
> 
> It's your life, live it to please yourself, not somebody else.


Guess it doesn't effect our plans, only makes us wonder if we'll end up doing what others do is all.

You are right in the end we'll be doing what we want. Good point.

But it does sound odd that so many "SAILORS" really are not much more than power boaters....lol


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

neverknow said:


> This thread is somewhat disturbing to me. Here's why.
> 
> Our plans are in 2 yrs to retire and live aboard. Right now we are stuck in Indiana and boat on Lake Michigan. A few yrs ago our plans were to get a trawler because of the fuel savings over our Carver 3227.
> 
> ...


You definitely shouldn't lose any sleep over how other sailors drive their boats.

Sure, we talk about it, but don't let it affect your decision to buy or cruise on a sailboat. Your motivations sound similar to mine- working to use less fuel.

However, please don't make the mistake of thinking that a sailboat means less operating costs. The costs are there, they're just different, and come at different intervals.

The engine(s) will still require an overhaul, probably just at a less frequent interval than you're used to. The sails and running rigging will require replacement and maintenance. The bigger the boat, the more costly this is.

The real question here is: Whom do you want most of your maintenance and operating dollars to go to? OPEC, Mobil and Exxon or North Sails and your local chandlery?


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

JimMcGee said:


> Look over there! They're motoring instead of sailing!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hold on there, buddy. If you think for one moment that someone drinking the wrong beer is NOT something that we should all be concerned about, then you are obviously part of the problem, not part of the solution! :laugher


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

JonE, I think you are right about seeing fewer vessels sailing than in the past. I'm just not sure we have the reason why. Technology makes it a bit easier to navigate and many newer boats are much easier to handle, so perhaps there are less experienced sailors on the water. As long as they remain safe and know their limits, they are welcome in my book. However, what happened to the hard core folks that used to sail? Did they all abandon the sport? By observation, they seem to be motoring too or there would be more boats overall.

I don't care if they sail or motor either and take no offense to your point of view. It is a bit interesting. Makes me wonder if we notice more today rather than their being so many more. When I returned to my grade school, it was much smaller than I remember. Memories can be tricky.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Sailing is supposed to be an esoteric, uncomfortable, and disheartening endeavor.

One moment your sails are slatting uselessly with no wind while you are baking in the cockpit, rocked by powerboat wakes, and another moment you are wondering whether your mast will snap and whether it is safe to crawl to the halyards.

Who do these cruisers think they are avoiding all this fun?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

smallboatlover said:


> hey minne i didn't know we were from around the same place kinda i sail skanonet river


SBL, maybe we'll see you on the water one day. We don't get over to the _Sakonnet_ river much. There are about a half dozen J-54DS on the Bay. Downside of a production boat. Ours is the fastest...... 

[I should be careful mouthing off. I know one of the other owners who can probably sail circles around us. Single hands the bloody thing from time to time. I have done so, with help at the ready, but would never leave the dock solo.]

Already can't wait for RI to warm back up.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

neverknow said:


> This thread is somewhat disturbing to me. Here's why.
> 
> Our plans are in 2 yrs to retire and live aboard. Right now we are stuck in Indiana and boat on Lake Michigan. A few yrs ago our plans were to get a trawler because of the fuel savings over our Carver 3227.
> 
> ...


Up to you to decide how much you sail or motor. Since you are motor boaters now, and are thinking of getting a trawler anyway, how much do you think you'll sail anyway? Sailing is a practiced art and a different mindset, offshore cruising even more so. All this ICW motoring stuff is quite amusing.

Tomorrow we will be sailing up the Mallaca Straits, weather and Pirates be damned!


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

neverknow said:


> This thread is somewhat disturbing to me. Here's why.
> ...
> 
> So now we are finding out most cruisers don't sail much if at all?? Makes me wonder why have a sail boat at all? As I posted in our previous post there's not much fuel savings between sail vs trawler if you don't use the sails.


Why is it disturbing to you how others use their boats? Your response implies that you might as well get a trawler if no one else is actually sailing. That's probably not how you meant to come across but you do what you want with your boat. Just because others choose to use their engine _for whatever reason_ doesn't mean you have to follow the herd.

What is curious (not yet at the disturbing level) to me is how many people who responded seem to judge what others are doing on or with _their_ boats. I know sailing affords one the time to look around and smell the roses so to speak, but forcryingoutloud, watch the wildlife, look for dragons in the clouds, plot your fix, trim your sails, make out with your SO. Why put so much thought into why another sailboat has its sails lowered and the engine on? Having your sails up doesn't make you a better sailor or a better person.

There are many reasons why a sailboat might be under power: skipper's lack of confidence, mechanical problems, time constraint, medical emergency, equipment testing, battery charging. You aren't sitting at that boat's helm so in the end you have no idea why their engine is on.

Now, what was disturbing to us was the boat that overtook us coming out of Annapolis and heading towards the Bay bridge during boat show weekend last October. It was under power, overtaking us and after a while I determined that it was not going to change course to go around. Since it was also my responsibility to avoid a collision even though the rules say that I should maintain course and speed, once I saw that the overtaking boat wasn't changing course and I couldn't see anyone at the helm, I got out of the way. I figured it was going under the bridge so I turned away from the channel. The other boat, still on its course, passed close enough that I could see the skipper leaning down into the cabin speaking to someone and neither had any idea that we were there even when our boats were beside each other. Finally, when his boat was about 100 feet ahead of us he popped his head up and looked ahead and to the side but never behind.

THAT disturbed me.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Hold on there, buddy. If you think for one moment that someone drinking the wrong beer is NOT something that we should all be concerned about, then you are obviously part of the problem, not part of the solution! :laugher


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Might it be possible that we on this forum take ourselves a bit too seriously sometimes?

After all the idea of being out there on our boats is to have fun.

If the guy on the next boat is having fun why should I care how he's doing it?

Unless of course it's a chubby middle aged guy in a speedo. Some things are just WRONG!


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

DRFerron said:


> Having your sails up doesn't make you...a better person.


Are you sure about that, Donna?


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

jameswilson29 said:


> Are you sure about that, Donna?


Not if you don't know what to do with them when they're up.


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## willyd (Feb 22, 2008)

This all seems to boil down to a desire to justify our own way of doing things by finding like-minded people. If I'm out there happy that I'm sailing, I want to see others doing the same. If all the sailboats I see are motoring (this has been my experience as well, on the Chesapeake, in fine weather), it bothers me for that reason, I guess - team sailboat has joined team stinkboat. 

On the other hand, if a boat with sails up overtakes me, I get mad, but for different reasons.  If they had their motor on I could at least gloat that I was sailing but they weren't.

I feel the same way about people that don't drive the way I do or drive vehicles that (I assume) use more gas than mine does. That said, I've used more gasoline and other non-biodegradable materials for the purposes of using sailboats than if I'd never gotten involved with sailing at all.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

DRFerron said:


> Not if you don't know what to do with them when they're up.


Obviously, you have been spying on me...the boat was moving backwards because of the current, not because I can't tack...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

DRFerron said:


> Now, what was disturbing to us was the boat that overtook us coming out of Annapolis and heading towards the Bay bridge during boat show weekend last October. It was under power, overtaking us and after a while I determined that it was not going to change course to go around. Since it was also my responsibility to avoid a collision even though the rules say that I should maintain course and speed, once I saw that the overtaking boat wasn't changing course and I couldn't see anyone at the helm, I got out of the way. I figured it was going under the bridge so I turned away from the channel. The other boat, still on its course, passed close enough that I could see the skipper leaning down into the cabin speaking to someone and neither had any idea that we were there even when our boats were beside each other. Finally, when his boat was about 100 feet ahead of us he popped his head up and looked ahead and to the side but never behind.
> 
> THAT disturbed me.


Well, if that disturbed you, perhaps you _should_ be a bit concerned by the trend among sailors towards motoring more, and sailing less... (grin)

Sounds like the example you cite may have been a classic one of Chartplotter Love, a "helmsman" becoming so completely distracted by what's happening on a display at the nav station, and becoming oblivious to the real world around him...

Sailing is very much all about an awareness of your surroundings, you're usually not going much of anywhere without remaining finely attuned to them... this is very much what it meant by the distinction others have mentioned between the mentality of sailors and stinkpotters, the former are basically already where they want to be, the latter want to be somewhere else...

I've already mentioned it, but your example seems a perfect one of how situational awareness so easily decreases with the coupling of electronically navigating to a distant waypoint, being taken there by autopilot, and propulsion under power...

Trust me, as one who has covered FAR more miles under power than under sail, it's a completely different mindset - and even the most conscientious skipper really has to make an effort to maintain a level of awareness equivalent to that required to keep a boat moving well under sail...


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Under sail, or power, I don't leave the cockpit when in any situation where even a momentary distraction could have adverse consequences. My situational awareness doesn't change with my method of propulsion. For myself, I think that's a direct result of being a singlehander. Paying attention costs nothing, and saves much.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> Obviously, you have been spying on me...the boat was moving backwards because of the current, not because I can't tack...


On my first charter we were headed to Bedwell Harbour from Maple Bay in a flotilla. Near Cape Keppel on Saltspring, the lead boat passed me under power as we were broad reaching. John, the skipper, yelled across to me, "Jack, you look great, but you are going backwards." I started the engine.


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## neverknow (Feb 2, 2011)

I guess I was just surprised by what I was reading. We will in the end do what makes the most sense for us.

To be honest I'm looking forward to learning to sail when I retire. Sort of a new career. I can see it now we'll be all excited sailing everywhere because it's all new and the old time sailors will be saying you actually sail here???? J/K

We are heading off to Chicago for NYE everyone have a fun and safe weekend.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

There's a similar phenomena among bikers. There's an event called "Bike Week" that everyone used to ride to. Now everyone drives a Chevy Tahoe or Suburban, and tows their bikes in a sealed trailer to avoid all the paint and chrome dings that actually riding your bike causes.

Now they sell T-shirts at the event that sardonically state "I rode my bike to Trailer Week".


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

One delivery I crewed for in the early 80's of a 37 foot sailboat from Tarpon Springs Florida to St. Martin the delivery captain got an empty 55 gallon drum, built a wood cradel that allowed the drum to lay on its side. The drum and cradel was then lashed to the deck at the stern of the boat. Along with this fuel we had six 5 gallon jugs of diesel. We actually did sail most of the way except when we crossed the Bahama Bank (flat calm) and had a lot of fuel left over, but captain just wanted to be sure as time to him was money.

I actually hate my engine and don't really trust it- would rather and do sail, but others might have other motavations. As they say ain't that America

John Mellencamp - Pink Houses - YouTube

Notice the sailboat at 3 minutes 29 seconds has sails up in the channel!

Happy New Year


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

PBzeer said:


> Under sail, or power, I don't leave the cockpit when in any situation where even a momentary distraction could have adverse consequences. My situational awareness doesn't change with my method of propulsion. For myself, I think that's a direct result of being a singlehander. Paying attention costs nothing, and saves much.


And that's as it should be, for sure... However, I'm not sure that sort of vigilance applies to the majority out there, and I still think that protracted periods of motoring, and the continuous drone of an engine, can easily lead to a perceptible dulling of the senses...

I think the mishap suffered by singlehander Jeanne Socrates a few years ago illustrates the point I'm trying to make... She was less than 100 miles from closing the circle on a circumnavigation begun in Puerto Vallarta, when she went on the beach while taking a nap...



> From Latitude 38
> 
> We're heartsick to report that Jeanne Socrates, who, after completing the 2006 Singlehanded TransPac, decided to take on the world with a 15-month solo circumnavigation, has lost her beloved UK-based Najad 361 Nereida less than 100 miles from her starting point of Zihuatenejo.
> 
> "Nereida was grounded halfway from Acapulco to Zihuatanejo on a desolate, mainly uninhabited part of the coast, after the autopilot went down just before first light on June 19," Jeanne wrote in an update to friends this weekend. "I was taking my usual timed nap - a stopwatch set for 45 minutes - which looked fine in the situation: full moon, some swell and waves but not much, motoring in very little wind, a good distance from a long sandy shore. *Because I was motoring in calm conditions, the resultant change of course was not obvious enough to wake me up in time, as it would have done had I been sailing." *


I'm in full agreement with her that such a mishap would have been far less likely to occur had she been under sail at the time... When sailing, there are simply too many warning signs/alarm bells that might have alerted her that something had changed, or was amiss... But on a quiet night under power, the drone of the engine drowning out whatever chance she might have had of being stirred by the sound of breaking surf or whatever, there were far fewer cues that something was up than there would be had she been sailing...

And, as a singlehander who might be having to grab a catnap or two somewhere off the Delmarva during the next few days, I certainly hope I'll be under sail if I do... I have to be pretty desperate, to try to catch some winks while the engine is running... (grin)


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

travlineasy said:


> If my memory serves me correctly, that segment of the ICW is nothing more than a narrow ditch through the flats. You don't have to stray very far out of the channel to be hard aground. I'm kinda' gutsy when it comes to this stuff, though, and with that much breeze I would have at least had the jib out. Ironically, this fall, when the sunbirds were headed down Chesapeake Bay for the Norfolk, 95-percent of the boats I saw were not sailing, even when the winds were favorable. Instead, they were motoring along the Chesapeake's main shipping channel as fast as they could. Didn't make any sense to me at all.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Gary,
I'm surprised ChrisnCate have not chimed in. There web site is also down. Do you know what there status is?
Regards


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

casey1999 said:


> Gary,
> I'm surprised ChrisnCate have not chimed in. There web site is also down. Do you know what there status is?
> Regards


I haven't heard from them since summer. The last time I talked with them they were hoping to have the boat ready to sail by fall, but I don't know if they were able to get everything ship shape in time to sail away. I changed computers a few months ago, and I'll have to check to see if I still have their email address and telephone number.

Cheers,

Gary


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Well, if that disturbed you, perhaps you _should_ be a bit concerned by the trend among sailors towards motoring more, and sailing less... (grin)
> 
> Sounds like the example you cite may have been a classic one of Chartplotter Love, a "helmsman" becoming so completely distracted by what's happening on a display at the nav station, and becoming oblivious to the real world around him...
> 
> ...


I have been switching off the electronic stuff more and more over the past few years as it distracts me from the elements and greatly disturbs my "WA" of sailing. Since the nav computer died last year in the Philippines we are back to DR and paper charts. Much easier on my brain, now we just get coffee stains on the charts...


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

aeventyr60 said:


> I have been switching off the electronic stuff more and more over the past few years as it distracts me from the elements and greatly disturbs my "WA" of sailing. Since the nav computer died last year in the Philippines we are back to DR and paper charts. Much easier on my brain, now we just get coffee stains on the charts...


Every so often I get students who just engrossed in the chartplotter and do not look and feel. If the visibility is good, I will shut it off so they are forced to use paper charts and their eyes.

BTW - no food at the chart table, that includes coffee and pasta with tomato sauce


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

jackdale said:


> Every so often I get students who just engrossed in the chartplotter and do not look and feel. If the visibility is good, I will shut it off so they are forced to use paper charts and their eyes.
> 
> BTW - no food at the chart table, that includes coffee and pasta with tomato sauce


Chart Table? It's in the cockpit with the nav tools and baked beans spilling all over the place. We decided to jybe at the onion and then head for the smallest bean. Took a bearing on a container ship that was 2 points off the farthest bean....


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## studentt (Aug 25, 2010)

I don't usually question another captain's decisions--and I never yell insults at strangers--but there are times when I wonder. I suppose that there are batteries to charge and reefers to chill and other reasons--already mentioned by others--to run under power on "good sailing days."

To each their own.


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## MarioG (Sep 6, 2009)

My First mate wrote a letter in the last Liveaboard magazine about how we don't see other sailboats sailing. We have sailed just about the entire langth of the ICW, yes sometime only doing 2knots but its what we moved aboard to do. We bought a shallow draft boat for this reason. I do wonder at times why when the conditions are right other sailboats or motoring but just fell its there loss and leave it at that. 

we have even been passed by the guy rowing up the ICW from Miami so I'm sure people have wundered how I can deal with sailing slow and when the conditions are wrong.


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

Sometimes motoring is faster, more efficient and convenient. It takes a lot more wind to move a 40000 lb boat than a 20000 lb' r especially if you have to tack through sketchy traffic, operated by skippers with limited skills.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Honestly, I just don't get why anyone cares what others are doing with their boats so long as they're not endangering others.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

At times when I'm motoring along the Indian River I look over to a condo and see someone on the veranda with a pair of binoculars. I'm never drawn to any curiosity about their lives or purposes. We are not "snowbirds", but "hurricane birds", cruising north from our home port in Florida during the season, however, we fly with the same flock. Over the forty years that we've been liveaboard cruisers we've put many hours on a one cylinder Palmer, an Atomic 4, A Westerbeke and now 5,686 hours on our Yanmar. We do a lot of sailing in the Bahamas, Keys, NC sounds, Chesapeake, Long Island Sound & down east Maine and much motoring in between. 'next time I'm motoring by the condo I'll consider waving, but I'm not really concerned about how that guy spends his time. Take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

Perspective

Seeing Sailors/cruisers/boaters all huddled in a marina,tethored to docks, many with shiny new anchors and ground tackle invokes some of the same head scratching from me as it does from others about the motoring sailboats.
With one major difference, there doesn't seem to be any "no Sailing" fields or areas where sailing while living aboard is being outlawed/regulated.

As per the choice of sailing Vs. Motoring I think you already know my choice.

Be safe, have fun or what's the point.

_most of them dreamers... most of them dreams.._


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

We (sailboats with engines) really have the best of both worlds don't we? We have sailboats because we like sailing, but realize that there are circumstances when we either "need" or prefer to motor. Both are good and I like having the "backup" of having both.
I still feel some slight guilt if I am motoring for some reason and pass close by someone sailing (even if they are going backward in the current), like I'm breaking the sailor's rule, but then I remember there are no rules.


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## AdamLein (Nov 6, 2007)

A big thank you to whoever reopened this fairly dead thread; I hadn't seen it before and I found it hilarious. You've got one group of posters trying to have a serious discussion about a trend they're observing, and another group saying WHY ARE YOU EVEN THINKING ABOUT THIS. It's sort of ironic, criticizing people for criticizing other people, no?

I don't see why anybody should just the way another poster uses this forum. I mean it's all just for fun, right?

Anyway, the situation seems simple to me. I'm sure plenty of times people have legitimate reasons for motoring in good sailing conditions. It's also obvious that plenty of people do plenty of things just so that they can establish a particular identity, like "vegetarian" or "sports team fan" or "fancy car driver" or "sailor". Once you own a sailboat, you get to be called a sailor, whether you sail the boat or not.

The suggestion being made here is that a greater percentage of sailors nowadays are "identity sailors" rather than "real sailors". Cited reasons include ease of boat operation and navigation with modern equipment. Evidence is anecdotal, but the story has a ring of truth to it. The unmentioned concerns? Maybe that a once elite and cherished pastime is being reduced to a meaningless status symbol. Maybe that once, legitimately being a sailor was a badge of honor, since it implied skill, bravery, experience, etc., whereas that label has lost some of that value.

To the dissenting voices who seem to be saying, "I don't get why you care," maybe now you understand why they care, and can formulate more reasonable arguments as to why they shouldn't care.

This is possibly the most common theme of discussion on this forum.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Wow, it's almost summer, this brings back Christmas when I started this thread while being an admitted "armchair admiral" at a motel overlooking the Indian River where it's pretty wide (Fort Pierce down to St Lucie Inlet) for about 20 miles, even if not that deep outside the marked channel (though deep enough that the US Sailing Center is right there in Jensen Beach and they hold small boat races across the whole river).

So, I was being a little nosey, but not trying to look into anyone's bedroom. But it was *such* a nice day to run or broad-reach for a couple of hours and maybe even not have to hear the engine for a brief change? Or at least motorsail with the roller furl jib?

Confession time. I come from a racing background (though with not a few deliveries), teach sailing part-time, and try to motor as little as possible with the students, including sailing in and out of the harbor and even the slip if we can get away with it. *Not* necessarily efficient, but a good boat/sailhandling exercise. Maybe if I were delivering a boat or trying to make time I'd motor at 7 knots instead of trying to sail at 6. You're right, it's none of my business with any of you personally and happiness is where and how you find it.

But I do notice over the last five decades that sailing has gradually started and ended farther and farther away from the slip/mooring/harbor/approaches.

Anyway I'm glad it turned out to be an interesting topic. And no offense intended nor taken, please. Good sailing (or even motoring) to all. ;-)


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

puddinlegs said:


> Honestly, I just don't get why anyone cares what others are doing with their boats so long as they're not endangering others.


Fair enough, many others have made that point, as well... But, c'mon, aren't you sometimes at least _CURIOUS_ why so many choose to motor, even when offered perfect sailing conditions?

I just finished running a Cabo Rico 42 back up from Florida, turned out to be a motor job virtually the entire way... Outside in little or no wind past Charleston, when I had to go back inside at Winyah Bay for fuel, and the expected severe weather associated with the passage of a cold front..

Behind the front, beautiful weather and a brisk WNW breeze, rare this late in the spring. Approaching Wrightsville Beach, I caught up to a cluster of 5 cruisers heading up the Ditch...

IMHO, the sail outside between Wrightsville and Beaufort (or vice versa), is perhaps the finest short hop outside on the entire coast. Good inlets on either end, beautiful water, plenty of dolphin, no hazards whatsoever, and very little traffic... On the other hand, the inside route is one of the more tedious, narrow channel all the way, several restricted bridges, not especially scenic, etc...

Needless to say, none of the boats ahead peeled off to head out Masonboro, for a day of glorious sailing... Steady 15-18 knots, AWA averaging between 100-110 degrees, calm sea in the lee of the coast, it just doesn't get much better than that. I probably averaged a full 1/2 knot faster than I could make under power alone, and with the exception of being able to carry a spinnaker all the way from Cape Charles to Barnegat Inlet bringing my own boat north a month earlier, probably one of the finest days of sailing I've had so far this year...

Now, I don't really _CARE_ that those other 5 boats continued plowing up the Ditch instead. In fact, I preferred it that way, having that 60 miles between Wrightsville and Beaufort all to myself made the experience even more special... But still, I can't help _wondering_, didn't those folks have any clue how rare those conditions were, how blessed we were to be afforded them, how freakin' _PERFECT_ that day of sailing turned out to be?

Below is the view from behind the helm on that boat... I'm 6'5" tall, but I found if I sat on top of 2 stacked throwable cushions, I could sight the horizon perfectly through that 3/4" high slit between the plotter, and bank of instuuments ... (Coincidentally, lose the instrument cherry on top, and you have the same configuration that was in play on that boat that was lost in the Ensenada race)

This is where many sailor's heads are at these days, the overwhelming majority will apply their Boat Show Discounts towards stuff like this, as opposed to a Code 0 that might often spell the difference between motoring, or sailing... This is not the helm of a boat intended to be _sailed_, subject to the whim of the wind or wave... but, rather it is one to be _DRIVEN_, by Raymarine, from one waypoint to the next...

NTTAWWT, of course... (grin)


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

This reminds me of so many of the discussions I've heard over the years. 

Japanese motorcycles..vs Harleys
Hoods Vs Mods
Jazz vs Rock and Roll vs doo *** etc. etc.

I'm in the camp, of I don't care much how others spend their money or use their boats unless, I can learn something from it.

I'm one of those east coast sailors. I'm not a snow bird, but I've made the trip to florida,
and take regular trips up north. I like to get an early start to the day, so I'm leaving my anchor, slip or mooring by 7 a.m at the latest. Earlier, if I'm catching a current.
I've left port jefferson harbor at 5 am to catch the current at hell gate. I've left an anchorage behind Kitty Hawk at 4 am because I wanted to arrive in Ocracoke with time to explore the island. I've left anchorages on St Michaels island at dawn on a Sunday so I could get back to Annapolis early enough to take the 3 1/2 drive home. 

More often than not there is little or no wind at that time of morning. I'll raise the mainsail and motorsail. I love those dawn hours, the smell of coffee brewing below, bacon and eggs on the way.. Sometimes the mist or fog is still laying on the water. The water like glass. It might be 4 or 5 hours before the wind picks up enough to warrant turning the engine off, but when it does, the genoa comes out and the engine gets a well earned rest, and so do my ears.. 

I wouldn't have that option on a trawler. 

On my trip through the pamlico sound, it was one of the most glorious fall days I've ever seen, with one exception. There wasn't a speck of wind. The engine and autopilot were on, not another vessel to be seen except 2 or 3 commercial fishing boats. But we had a blast, had a great breakfast, Fished, Smoked the best cigar, I've ever had, listened to CD's , enjoyed the warmth of the sun and took a swim. It was expecially nice because the trip from Annapolis to Norfolk was cold, wet and blowing...

I love my boat! I sail when I can , and motorsail when I can't, with no remorse.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> Fair enough, many others have made that point, as well... But, c'mon, aren't you sometimes at least _CURIOUS_ why so many choose to motor, even when offered perfect sailing conditions?


No.  I'm more puzzled why so many cruisers aren't driven stark raving nuts by flapping/slapping/fluttering leaches. :laugher


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

studentt said:


> I don't usually question another captain's decisions--and I never yell insults at strangers--but there are times when I wonder. I suppose that there are batteries to charge and reefers to chill and other reasons--already mentioned by others--to run under power on "good sailing days."
> 
> To each their own.


That sums it up. I'm fix'n to deliver a Cal 36 to Charleston from Key West. I have a short time frame to work with and a pretty new Yanmar down below. You'll see me motor sailing down a 20 knot breeze if it will get me there a few hours quicker. My personal boat, a Sovrel 28, does'nt even have an engine. I sail it all over the Key's and Western Carib. like that. You never know what the dude on the other boat is up to. At least we are all out there doing something.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

AdamLein said:


> A big thank you to whoever reopened this fairly dead thread; I hadn't seen it before and I found it hilarious. You've got one group of posters trying to have a serious discussion about a trend they're observing, and another group saying WHY ARE YOU EVEN THINKING ABOUT THIS. It's sort of ironic, criticizing people for criticizing other people, no?


Not ironic at all. More like amazed at the inanity of it.



AdamLein said:


> The suggestion being made here is that a greater percentage of sailors nowadays are "identity sailors" rather than "real sailors". ... <snip> ... Maybe that a once elite and cherished pastime is being reduced to a meaningless status symbol.


C'mon boats, espeically sailing "yachts" have *always* been status symbols.

As for "identity" sailors, I remember when you younger hockey players were a disappointment because they wore helmets.

And I heard this argument in the 90's from "real" bikers when a new crowd started buying Harleys.

I heard it from photographers that anyone shooting with a modern (not manual) camera wasn't a real photographer.

Pick your poison.



AdamLein said:


> To the dissenting voices who seem to be saying, "I don't get why you care," maybe now you understand why they care, and can formulate more reasonable arguments as to why they shouldn't care.


But Adam I *DO* get why they care.

There's always someone looking to elevate themselves by creating reasons to look down on others. That's all this is.

I paid for the boat and I'll use it however I please.

Worry about the half drunk Sea Ray jockey who's too busy mixing cocktails to pay attention to what's in front of him.

If the other guy is motoring because he has a schedule to keep just give him a wave and go back to enjoying your own boat. You're no better or worse than he is. Just different.


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## jaasun71 (May 15, 2009)

I live along the ICW in Florida and met a couple fueling up at my marina a few months ago...the wife was telling me they came all the way from Pensacola to key west and up the east coast to Georgia and back down and beer once raised the sails lol. She said she had never seen the sails up.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> To me, that indicates that having the ability to keep a boat moving through the lighter stuff, simply isn't a real priority, they'd rather fire up the engine... NTTAWWT, of course... (grin)


Despite my illustrious FC pedigree, I fall into this camp. I love sailing in bigger stuff - simply because it's some of the most fun sailing out there. But I hate sailing in really light stuff. It's too much work for too little reward.

If I've got nothing else to do, I'll ride it out. But if I'm going somewhere, I have no problem at all firing up the motor - and wouldn't think less of someone doing the same.



AdamLein said:


> Maybe that a once elite and cherished pastime is being reduced to a meaningless status symbol. Maybe that once, legitimately being a sailor was a badge of honor, since it implied skill, bravery, experience, etc., whereas that label has lost some of that value.


Bingo.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Capt.aaron said:


> That sums it up. I'm fix'n to deliver a Cal 36 to Charleston from Key West. I have a short time frame to work with and a pretty new Yanmar down below. You'll see me motor sailing down a 20 knot breeze if it will get me there a few hours quicker.


Is that Cal really that much of a dog, that she might not make close to hull speed in 20 knots of breeze?

Motorsailing in such conditions, if you're really looking to make time over a delivery of such length, can often backfire on you... It's often better to take a bit of a hit on boatspeed, while extending your range... Along much of the east coast, particularly between Charleston and Mayport, the penalty you'll pay time-wise to duck back in for fuel can be HUGE, and quite often the quickest trips can be those in which the engine is run judiciously, rather than simply focusing on maintaining hull speed, or above...



smackdaddy said:


> > Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> > To me, that indicates that having the ability to keep a boat moving through the lighter stuff, simply isn't a real priority, they'd rather fire up the engine... NTTAWWT, of course... (grin)
> 
> 
> ...


I don't disagree at all, I'm much the same way... Never got much of a kick out of sailing in light air, myself. But, the fact is, if you're out cruising, and you haven't figured out how to keep your boat moving in less than optimum conditions, you're gonna wind up doing a LOT of motoring...

I've come around to enjoying sailing in the light stuff way more than I used to, the difference a Code 0 or an asym can make on a heavily laden cruising boat can be huge... Plus, those sails can be a lot of fun to play with. But, I long ago reached the conclusion that sailing itself is just not a top priority for many cruisers, so such a suggestion is bound to fall upon legions of deaf ears... (grin)

Again, I understand perfectly why many people choose to motor in less than ideal conditions... Hell, I do it plenty of times myself...

I'm simply surprised at the percentage I repeatedly see, who choose to do so in sailing conditions that are, as the expression goes, _"to DIE for..."_










Anyway, I'm glad I got at least one day of kick-ass sailing in on my last trip, 'cause there sure ain't gonna be much on the next one...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> I don't disagree at all, I'm much the same way... Never got much of a kick out of sailing in light air, myself. But, the fact is, if you're out cruising, and you haven't figured out how to keep your boat moving in less than optimum conditions, you're gonna wind up doing a LOT of motoring...
> 
> I've come around to enjoying sailing in the light stuff way more than I used to, the difference a Code 0 or an asym can make on a heavily laden cruising boat can be huge... Plus, those sails can be a lot of fun to play with. But, I long ago reached the conclusion that sailing itself is just not a top priority for many cruisers, so such a suggestion is bound to fall upon legions of deaf ears... (grin)
> 
> ...


Ouch! What happened to the stick dude?

I'm totally with you that that Belize pic just makes a sailor sad. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that the sails were all shredded from a hellish passage around the Horn. Otherwise, they're just stupid.

And I also agree 100% that I personally need to learn to fly a CZ and a spin. I've never sailed with either. But I'm getting closer with the off-shore racing I've been doing.

That's actually one of the things I like about ocean racing - you CAN'T use your motor. So I'm learning a lot about sail trim and milking light air for speed.

But cruising? Especially with the wife and kids? I'll crank the motor up whenever I need to in light stuff. No doubt.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Is that Cal really that much of a dog, that she might not make close to hull speed in 20 knots of breeze?
> 
> Motorsailing in such conditions, if you're really looking to make time over a delivery of such length, can often backfire on you... It's often better to take a bit of a hit on boatspeed, while extending your range... Along much of the east coast, particularly between Charleston and Mayport, the penalty you'll pay time-wise to duck back in for fuel can be HUGE, and quite often the quickest trips can be those in which the engine is run judiciously, rather than simply focusing on maintaining hull speed, or above...
> 
> ...


I was kidding. Just exagerating to make a point that you never know what someone else is doing or why.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> Ouch! What happened to the stick dude?


Nothing bad, she's off to start a new life in Cleveland, with new owners...

"New" being the operative word, here... this 32,000 lb., 44 foot (56' overall with the bowsprit and dinghy on davits) beast will be the _FIRST_ boat the new owners have ever owned...

I certainly gave this arrangement the Stress Test on Delaware Bay yesterday, can you say "snap roll"?

Just a matter of time before someone like Beneteau, or Island Packet, will be offering stabilizers as an option... I sure could have used them last evening, that's for damn sure... (grin)


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Okay, this *does* seem like an adequate reason for motoring.

Wait, wait, what's that stubby little upright thing? you could jury-rig your small jib to it horizontally....


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

The second time I took my boat out for a test the wind died down after dark. I tacked back upwind toward the ramp in wind that was so light, it would not turn the Windex. The funny part was that after I made it to the docks, I used a canoe paddle to maneuver over to the ramp and realized that I was moving twice as fast. Not having moved it with just a canoe paddle before I didn't realize it was that easy. Had I known that, I would have paddled in instead of tacking.

I can understand motoring when you have dead air or are concerned about currents or other traffic. However, I have a hard time putting the words 'sailing' and 'hurry' together in the same sentence. To me, the journey is the fun, not the destination. On the other hand, if you plan a sailing vacation then you usually only have a certain number of days and scheduling creeps back in. And, it would be hard to argue that keeping a schedule with a fixed number of vacation days is worse than not taking the boat at all.

As far as trying to feel superior to someone else, I've seen a lot of that on other boards. Sailors would have a chip on their shoulder and a saltier-than-thou attitude about everything. You had to use marine rope, not rope you bought at a hardware store; you had to use Harken blocks, not regular pulleys; you had to use teak and marine plywood. I've seen people turn apoplectic over the mere notion that someone would build a boat with ACX plywood instead of marine plywood or that someone might try to sail to Hawaii with a boat smaller than 36'. People could be vicious and nasty about fractional rigs versus masthead rigs or a cutter configuration versus a single head sail. People would vent about things they actually knew nothing about but nevertheless had a strong opinion about. You get cliques of people who seem to share some of the same brain matter and who would swoop in like a school of fish on some issue for group attack, group defense, or group rambling where the most coherent thing they would say would be "have a beer and post pictures". Then you would find out that these self appointed captains of the sea were scared to death to sail out of sight of land.

Whether your boat is 60' or 8', sailing is sailing and anything that makes it safer, more accessible, or more enjoyable is hopefully what people on this forum want.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

It's one thing, to go out "sailing". It's something else when you are traveling. It would be nice to never have to use the engine, but sometimes, it's just not a reasonable option.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

JimMcGee said:


> > Originally Posted by AdamLein
> > To the dissenting voices who seem to be saying, "I don't get why you care," maybe now you understand why they care, and can formulate more reasonable arguments as to why they shouldn't care.
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, but I think that's a bit unfair to those who are simply perplexed, as I am, by why those who ostensibly love to sail often ultimately wind up doing so little of it...

I've always thought there can much to be learned from discussing this issue. I believe most cruisers certainly venture out there with the _intent_ of doing more sailing than they do, but simply get carried away with adding all manner of crap to their boats which winds up degrading its performance to such an extent, that their performance (or ease of handling) is no longer remotely close to what it is under power...



JimMcGee said:


> If the other guy is motoring because he has a schedule to keep just give him a wave and go back to enjoying your own boat. You're no better or worse than he is. Just different.


However, this thread, and many others like it, is not about sailing in marginal conditions, or with a schedule in mind... I see it as being about how common it is to see people out cruising (in this case, east coast snowbirds) for a likely minimum of 4-5 months, who choose to be motoring _when the sailing conditions are ideal_ If that procession that nolatom witnessed that day at Jensen Beach were trying to meet a schedule, well - motoring down that stretch of the Ditch is the _slowest_ way to get further south on a day like that...

I'm sure many view the countless examples I can cite as purely anecdotal, having little merit when applied to the bigger picture... But once again I've returned from another winter down south, during which I saw scores of cruising boats motoring about the Keys and Bahamas in ideal sailing conditions. I'm not trying to "elevate" myself above such sailors, it's their own business what they choose to do, of course... Still, I think musing about the possible reasons for such a choice on the part of so many is at least mildly entertaining, if not potentially informative...

btw, in their March issue, BLUE WATER SAILING ran an article by Bill Kund entitled _"Why Don't Sailors Sail Anymore?"_

So, I guess it's not just me who's observed this phenomenon, and how it has increased in recent years... (grin)


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

We should be able to observe the difference between respecting the judgment of an individual to sail or motor versus discussing a general trend and what it might say about sailing. Maybe some people have boats that just aren't that much fun to sail, or too hard to sail well.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

Sailing is too dangerous, but it's cool, so buy a sailboat and motor everywhere so you look the part. It's a bit like buying one of those jap Harley clones, you want to look like a bad a$$, but you want reliability and good gas mileage


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

rgscpat said:


> We should be able to observe the difference between respecting the judgment of an individual to sail or motor versus discussing a general trend and what it might say about sailing. Maybe some people have boats that just aren't that much fun to sail, or too hard to sail well.


Well, I'm not sure there's as much of a distinction as you might think...

Most people make a conscious, carefully considered choice in selecting the boats they own... In today's market, with most boats now designed from the inside out, I think it's pretty obvious that interior accommodations and comfort have achieved a primacy over sailing ability for many buyers, and cruising sailors. If you choose a boat like an Island Packet, and rarely venture beyond the waters of a place like the Chesapeake, or Long Island Sound, it's obvious that the ability to spend much of your time on the water under sail is simply not a high priority for you...

So, whether one decides to sail or motor in any particular instance, is quite likely determined by other choices made long before - in the choice of boat, and how it has been equipped and configured for its use. Again, in my observation, the dearth of free-flying sails on cruising boats speaks volumes about the lack of passion for sailing itself among cruisers... Even gear as simple and modest as a whisker pole sees very little use among the cruisers I see - on the CR 42 I just ran north, the end fittings were frozen solid, the thing obviously has not been used in years... And, the ever-increasing presence of stuff like full-cockpit enclosures on aft cockpit boats is just another one of those "must-haves" that will ultimately result in doing less sailing, as opposed to more...

Somehow, I'm guessing sailing performance is not a particularly high priority for this guy I spotted this winter, for example... Now, this boat may suit him very well for its intended use, but I'd be quite surprised if he winds up spending much of his time underway, under sail alone...


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

People buy their boats for a variety of reasons. How they use them is entirely up to them, based on the choices they make for whatever reason they make them. To attach motivations to their choices, without knowledge of their reasons, is at best, foolish, and at worst, rather snobbish when compared to one's own reasons.

It's certainly fair to wonder why people don't have their sails up when it seems like it would be appropriate based on conditions. What I find distasteful in this discussion though, is the apparent attitude of some, that those who aren't sailing, are committing some kind of cardinal sin. That they are misusing THEIR boat, based on somebody else's opinion of "proper boat use". When all that really matters is whether they are doing what they want. Not what someone else thinks they should be doing.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

PBzeer said:


> People buy their boats for a variety of reasons. How they use them is entirely up to them, based on the choices they make for whatever reason they make them. To attach motivations to their choices, without knowledge of their reasons, is at best, foolish, and at worst, rather snobbish when compared to one's own reasons.
> 
> It's certainly fair to wonder why people don't have their sails up when it seems like it would be appropriate based on conditions. What I find distasteful in this discussion though, is the apparent attitude of some, that those who aren't sailing, are committing some kind of cardinal sin. That they are misusing THEIR boat, based on somebody else's opinion of "proper boat use". When all that really matters is whether they are doing what they want. Not what someone else thinks they should be doing.


I do admire your desire for liveandletlivedness, but c'mon. At some point it gets a bit silly. _Sailing_ is _categorically_ the "proper boat use" for a _sail_boat.

On this issue, you probably know by now exactly where I stand...

"If you don't sail your boat...you don't sail." - FightClub, Chapter 3, Verse 2.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

> "If you don't sail your boat...you don't sail." - FightClub, Chapter 3, Verse 2.


If you don't enjoy YOUR time on YOUR boat, what's the point of having it?


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

PBzeer said:


> If you don't enjoy YOUR time on YOUR boat, what's the point of having it?


If you bought a SAILBOAT, but don't enjoy SAILING...what the hell were you thinking?

Sorry, I just don't buy your logic on this one. Like I said, the liveandletlive thing is fine to a point - but it eventually becomes silly...like now.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

PBzeer said:


> People buy their boats for a variety of reasons. How they use them is entirely up to them, based on the choices they make for whatever reason they make them. To attach motivations to their choices, without knowledge of their reasons, is at best, foolish, and at worst, rather snobbish when compared to one's own reasons.
> 
> It's certainly fair to wonder why people don't have their sails up when it seems like it would be appropriate based on conditions. What I find distasteful in this discussion though, is the apparent attitude of some, that those who aren't sailing, are committing some kind of cardinal sin. That they are misusing THEIR boat, based on somebody else's opinion of "proper boat use". When all that really matters is whether they are doing what they want. Not what someone else thinks they should be doing.


I don't disagree at all...

I'm sure I come across as a sailing snob to most, fair enough... However, all I'm trying to do is relate what I've seen with my own two eyes during the course of running boats up and down the East coast for over 3 decades, now...

Sailing is simply not the top priority among a very significant percentage of cruisers I see out there... And, cruisers appear to be sailing less and less with each passing year... That is all I'm saying, I'm always surprised how defensive some seem to get over that simple observation...

Lots of modern cruisers have bought into the dream that's sold in the glossy sailing rags... You know as well as anyone, the reality rarely matches what's being sold... When was the last time you saw an ad from Hunter, Sabre, or Beneteau that illustrates even the presence of a stowed tender aboard, for example? All those boats sail great in the pages of CRUISING WORLD, but when folks begin the downward spiral of lining the rails with jerry jugs of diesel and so on, well, then not so much...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> ...but when folks begin the downward spiral of lining the rails with jerry jugs of diesel and so on, well, then not so much...


You know, this is an interesting point. There is a time when having lots of extra fuel onboard can be a smart thing. Like maybe when you're running from Panama to Auckland - and the conditions look light for 2 weeks ahead.

On the other hand, could the problem be that we have a tendency to "over-equip" for the sailing the "non-passage" sailing most of us do? And if so, how do you win the argument that "it's okay to take some relative risks in terms of being 'too equipped' on your runs from Miami to the BVIs"?

Those yacht makers turn out those shiny boats that can go a hell of a long way on their own kit. Something else is telling us we need to add the festooned superstructure you see in the image above. What is that something else?


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Sunday, with a student, we sailed into the harbor and the slip (after motoring some outside when it went flat calm).

It was fun.

It also made us 10 minutes late.


I've got to get over my envy of those who enjoy motoring more than I do... ;-)


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

It seems to me that we're talking about a relatively small percentage of all sailboats and all sailors: East Coast snowbirds. It may appear to be a large number if you are travelling with them. 

However, there must be 10's of thousands of sailboats, of all sizes, and sailors on the east coast who remain in their home waters and sail seasonally, and take an occasional trip for vacation. In Nolatoms original post, he even remarks after his original statement, that several boats went by him with sails up on the ICW. 
( wing and wing and genoas out). So even in the "relatively" small number of snowbirds, there is a percentage that do sail when they can.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

nolatom said:


> It also made us 10 minutes late.
> 
> I've got to get over my envy of those who enjoy motoring more than I do... ;-)


Nah. You just need to care less about being late! Heh-heh.

Sailing into the slip is heady stuff man!


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

JonEisberg said:


> When was the last time you saw an ad from Hunter, Sabre, or Beneteau that illustrates even the presence of a stowed tender aboard, for example?


I know the Southerly has a "dinghy garage" which I think is VERY cool. The dinghy (partially deflated) slides into a compartment in back of the swim platform. Perhaps other new boats also have built-in storage for some of these extras?


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Since I can only speak for myself, that's the example I'll use.

When I decided in '03 that I wanted to retire early, and cruise the East Coast, Bahamas, and possibly deeper into the Caribbean, the only practical choice was a larger sailboat than the one I owned. For though I could afford to purchase a trawler, which would make a better liveaboard, I couldn't afford to go anywhere in it.

So, I bought a boat that would allow me to do what I wanted to do. I bought a larger sailboat so that I could cruise, not just so I could sail. 

I enjoy sailing, on many different levels. More though, I enjoy cruising, and having a sailboat, though I don't always sail, allows me to enjoy the life I have chosen. It allows me to go places I never would have otherwise. It allows me to meet people, I never would have otherwise. But most of all, it allows me to enjoy my life without worrying about fitting into somebody's definition of what, how and why.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> > Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> > ...but when folks begin the downward spiral of lining the rails with jerry jugs of diesel and so on, well, then not so much...
> 
> 
> You know, this is an interesting point. There is a time when having lots of extra fuel onboard can be a smart thing. Like maybe when you're running from Panama to Auckland - and the conditions look light for 2 weeks ahead.


Now, don't get me started on carrying fuel on deck... (grin)

Generally a very poor practice, IMHO, a potential disaster waiting to happen... Not to mention, placing that much additional weight above deck level, simply another means of degrading performance/seagoing characteristics, and cluttering the decks...

And why people feel they need to do so while running down the ICW will forever be a mystery to me...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

DRFerron said:


> > Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> > When was the last time you saw an ad from Hunter, Sabre, or Beneteau that illustrates even the presence of a stowed tender aboard, for example?
> 
> 
> I know the Southerly has a "dinghy garage" which I think is VERY cool. The dinghy (partially deflated) slides into a compartment in back of the swim platform. Perhaps other new boats also have built-in storage for some of these extras?


I'm not a big fan of stern garages on other than very large boats, they can be quite a waste of hull volume on most boats of less than 60' or thereabouts... And, that space if used for other gear storage, can be difficult to access while underway, and downright dangerous to attempt to do so offshore, or in a seaway...

And, in my experience, they ALWAYS leak, no matter how well they might appear to be configured... (grin)

The mechanisms that operate some of these garages (usually electric/hydraulic) can be quite complex, as well... One of the most ridiculous failures I've ever experienced came at the end of a delivery years ago of a boat that had wowed the boat show crowds with which was, back then, this newfangled feature... All the large deck gear, shore power cords, etc, lived in this space. So, I push the button to open it for the final time , nothing happens...

The entire mechanism operating this transom garage door was contained _WITHIN_ that space, with _NO ACCESS_ to it from the cockpit, deck lockers, or aft stateroom... And, of course, _NO MANUAL BACKUP_ means of opening the freakin' thing...

Phone call to the owner, who in turn calls the builder overseas... Apparently, there was a fairly lengthy pause on the other end, after the problem was described... The solution finally proved to be a fairly destructive one, involving the use of heavy pry bars, etc, and turned into thousands of dollars of repair, re-Awlgripping the transom, repainting the name, and so on...

I rate the modern trend towards SUV-style dinghies with large, heavy engines as another of the top contributors to the list of factors that result in some folks sailing less... Cruisers generally used to go with fairly modest tenders, often stowed amidships beneath the boom, where they would have had little effect on a boat's performance. They were often powered by a pair of oars alone, or a modest little kicker...

Nowadays, many boats are sporting massive dinks and engines, usually stowed far aft, and well above deck level... How much do you suppose this arrangement "enhances" the sailing or seakindly qualities of this one, for example?










Or, this guy, who towed this Cadillac Escalade all the way to Key West... Just a hunch, but I'm guessing he didn't do too much pure sailing along the way... (grin)


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I sail whenever I can. 

I motor whenever I feel like it.

I have a tender that is very comfortable and functional. 

I haven't heard a good reason why I shouldn't. 

As I said in post #37, I'm sure there have been many who have never left the safety of sailing in the Bay that are aghast that we motor back up the passage to our slip, after returning from a 5 hour offshore passage under sail. Since I will head out in almost any wind condition, I will bet I sail multiple more hours per year than they, despite motoring some of the time. They have nothing on us.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

> I've got to get over my envy of those who enjoy motoring more than I do... ;-)


All things being equal, I sail. Unfortunately, all things are not always equal. It isn't a question of enjoying motoring, it's a question of enjoying your time on the boat.

For instance, I've got laundry to do, as well as food shopping. I get there a few hours earlier motoring. That's time I can use to do what needs to be done, without dragging it out into the night. Sometimes, ya just gotta do what's practical, not what you'd rather do.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Another perspective that just occurred to me. 

Last year, we sailed out to Block Island with some family (I won't rat out which one). Beautiful sail out on a Saturday. The next day, it was blowing stink out of the east with 8 footers for our return trip. Unforecasted, but I knew to expect it as the wind was strong and sustained all night long. As soon as we passed the northern end of the island, I knew it was going to kick up. Sure enough, with 30 minutes, family is puking. I'm not able to pinch a direct tack to the Bay, therefore, the non-sailors aboard feel like we are going the wrong direction. One tack at Point Judith and another up the Bay and we would have been set. However, I could see the tension building as the psychological weight of "going the wrong direction" was weighing on those that were counting seconds till we got back. I made the decision to fire up the iron genny and pinch in closer to avoid the tack. I could see the relief on the passengers. However, given the greater impact of oncoming seas, I don't think we really made up any actual time.

I think it was the right decision.

This same family is coming this weekend and has made several "suggestions" of places to go on the Bay. That's fine by us, we just enjoy their company. However, while we will sail when we can, if the conditions don't look conducive for these passengers, we won't hesitate to fire her up again.


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

I Sail on the bay and maybe a little beyond on weekends. When we are on a weeks vacation to Martha's Vineyard, Shelter Island NY, or where ever I almost always motor-sail. If the wind is wrong, too light, or whatever makes the sails just too noisy I don't bother raising them and motor at 6-7 in a straight line to our destination. We have a week, my wife wants to - get there. So we do. It's just that simple.
I remember quite a few years (and boats) ago I sailed down to Watch Hill to meet up with an old friend. I should have said - drifted in the general direction with the sails up. We ended up so late that he was packing up to leave when we got there. I thought myself a purist at the time but when he said something like - If I can't make at least 4 kts in the direction I want to go then the motor goes on. That was the last time I wasted a day trying to make something happen that was not physically possible. Especially when other peoples feelings and time is involved.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

PBzeer said:


> All things being equal, I sail. Unfortunately, all things are not always equal. It isn't a question of enjoying motoring, it's a question of enjoying your time on the boat.
> 
> For instance, I've got laundry to do, as well as food shopping. I get there a few hours earlier motoring. That's time I can use to do what needs to be done, without dragging it out into the night. Sometimes, ya just gotta do what's practical, not what you'd rather do.


Actually this is a good point that I'd not thought of. If you live on your boat and use it for your primary transportation, the motor begins to take on a lot more value just in terms of efficiency.

Okay PB - you're off the hook. The rest of those wankers in the photos above however have no excuse!


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

This thread has made me think back over the 30+ years I've owned sailboats and been sailing in the PNW. I really don't think I see more sailboats motoring now than before, if so it's not by a big percentage. What I do see are more full canvas enclosures, which only make sense in our wet, cold climate (pilothouse anyone?). If anything I think that locally I'm seeing more boats sailing on the weekends, except of course on Sunday afternoons when they are beelining back home)
I wish the winds were more conducive to sailing hereabouts during the summer, but if wishes were fishes.... The facts are that during a typical six week trip for us we motor for about 100 hours and I would guess that we get to sail about 30-40? When we're moving I have the main up and there are days when I shut down the engine and pull out the genny 6-8 times, "I think there's enough wind to sail" has become a private joke between Laurie and I) We enjoy being on the boat no matter how we're making it move, or even when it's not moving at all.


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## Guero (Dec 29, 2009)

JonEisberg said:


> ... but when folks begin the downward spiral of lining the rails with jerry jugs of diesel and so on, well, then not so much...


Wait, what? I'm crossing the gulf next week with my boat, you can be pretty sure I'm gonna be sailing, and I'll have my rails loaded with jerry jugs of diesel as you put it, as a security.

---

People are so quick to judge.

Here are times I've used the engine (I Sail all the time)

- Testing engine repair
- Testing new prop
- Having elderly familiar aboard who were fragile
- Going upwind with familiar who became afraid of the heeling so I rolled the genoa
- Someone is cooking down there
- Sails are in repair but I want to get my boat out cause I miss the date
- I don't know the area i'm in, and doing it for precaution 
and many more

Furthermore, how can people be "mad" or make judgement of how other boat owners, they don't even know, are using their purchase. Their "stuff".

There's a guy in that thread that said he gets close to other sailboats with sails down to scream to use them. That would come out as a drunk to me if this happened while under engine.

This kind of attitude is one of the reason sailing is in decline, too much elitism. Just enjoy yourself.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Guero said:


> Wait, what? I'm crossing the gulf next week with my boat, you can be pretty sure I'm gonna be sailing, and I'll have my rails loaded with jerry jugs of diesel as you put it, as a security.
> 
> ---
> 
> People are so quick to judge.


That's simply my opinion, of course...

I'm guessing you've never been aboard a boat on a heavy weather passage with fuel spilled on deck... It's not pretty, the furthest possible thing from "security", as a matter of fact... I simply never want to put myself or crew in that sort of jeopardy again...

Your mileage may vary, of course - have a good trip...


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Guero said:


> <snip>
> 
> *There's a guy in that thread that said he gets close to other sailboats with sails down to scream to use them.* That would come out as a drunk to me if this happened while under engine.
> 
> This kind of attitude is one of the reason sailing is in decline, too much elitism. Just enjoy yourself.


Yeah, that's exactly what I said I do.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Yeah, that's exactly what I said I do.


You drunken bastard. You obviously belong in this thread:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/56033-drinking-anchor.html


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## PJPlovedog (May 23, 2012)

I have a unique perspective this year. I had surgery on my Achilles tendon and am in a brace/knee scooter/crutches for the first time in my life. This will be months, not days of recovery. 
It makes it too dangerous for me, physically, and to others to actually sail during this period of recovery, but I can be out for a beautiful few hours of motoring to at least get out on the water. If somebody came by and yelled at me for not hoisting the sails I'd really shake my head. 
It's none of anybody's business what another boater is dealing with on any particular day, and non of us really knows what is going on in another's life!
I've learned a lot from this experience....(get some new rigging leading some lines aft to the cockpit!) LOL


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## Guero (Dec 29, 2009)

BubbleheadMd said:


> Yeah, that's exactly what I said I do.


Roll eyes emoticon? Really? Oh my! Where's the gay expression emoticon. Why so? I'm ready to bet you never did that. Come on tell me you got close to a boat just to scream at them to get their sails up... por favor.. It's easy to play arm chair sailor from the internet. Really, i'm really not defending these motor sailors out there cause I'm a true sailor and turn off the engine as soon as I can, but your comment, just, made, no sense, at all, just like, the quantity, of commas, i used in that sentence. I call bullcrap on what you said you do.

ps: and just for the record, my friend told me I was crazy to sail in with main up into the decks.. So nto defending motors here.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Guero said:


> Roll eyes emoticon? Really? Oh my! Where's the gay expression emoticon. Why so? I'm ready to bet you never did that. Come on tell me you got close to a boat just to scream at them to get their sails up... por favor.. It's easy to play arm chair sailor from the internet. Really, i'm really not defending these motor sailors out there cause I'm a true sailor and turn off the engine as soon as I can, but your comment, just, made, no sense, at all, just like, the quantity, of commas, i used in that sentence. I call bullcrap on what you said you do.
> 
> ps: and just for the record, my friend told me I was crazy to sail in with main up into the decks.. So nto defending motors here.


..







..


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Tempest said:


> It seems to me that we're talking about a relatively small percentage of all sailboats and all sailors: East Coast snowbirds. It may appear to be a large number if you are travelling with them.
> 
> However, there must be 10's of thousands of sailboats, of all sizes, and sailors on the east coast who remain in their home waters and sail seasonally, and take an occasional trip for vacation. In Nolatoms original post, he even remarks after his original statement, that several boats went by him with sails up on the ICW.
> ( wing and wing and genoas out). So even in the "relatively" small number of snowbirds, there is a percentage that do sail when they can.


True, the percentage may be small overall, but I think the cruisers I see are still quite representative... They certainly represent the sort of demographic most manufacturers, purveyors of gear, etc are targeting... Look at how much space is given by publications such as CRUISING WORLD, or seminars at boat shows, to prepping for the sort of extended cruising adventure that the east coast snowbird's first winter sabbatical represents... Sailing south for the winter, or beyond, from major sailing centers like Newport, or Annapolis, certainly is the culmination of a dream shared by MANY sailors who ultimately desire to sail off into the sunset... These sailors may be relatively small in number each season, but many, MANY more will follow in their wake for generations to come...

And THAT is the primary reason why I feel this is a subject worthy of discussion...

Seems that those like the original poster are not the only ones who have noticed a trend... This, from across the pond:



> Why Doesn't Anyone Sail Anymore?
> by Colin
> 
> For our last three trips out sailing last year the wind was from the West or North West and quite fresh at times. We had some of the fastest and most satisfying sailing of the four seasons we've had our boat. We sailed on and off the mooring, in and out of the narrow entrance to our home loch, through the narrows at the Lynn of Lorne, past Lismore light with and against the tide, up and down the Sound of Mull with little wind and again with plenty of wind and both ways along the south coast of Mull. We sailed up Loch Sunart with the cruising chute goose winged and were distracted from steering by porpoises and an eagle. I've never enjoyed sailing more.
> ...


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> I sail whenever I can.
> 
> I motor whenever I feel like it.
> 
> ...


Yes, but I'll bet your tender is appropriately sized for your 54-footer... Or, vice versa...

My point was, that seems not always to be the case, nowadays... (grin)


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Hey, at least his mainsail cover is off. Give them credit, they have a life raft..or two.
The Titantic didn't have enough. 

Some context might help, Perhaps they just finished rescuing 4 people adrift for days in that liferaft, and gave a kayaker a lift.....or had weekend guests over for an orgy. ( grin ) 

Maybe they're a remote West Marine Distributor delivering orders...or a floating chandlery...

Are they weighing or lowering the anchor ? or is that how they stowed it ? 

Were you sailing or motoring past them when this photo was taken? 

Somehow... they got where they were going ? or were they leaving to go somewhere else?

Give it up Jon, that's really your chase boat, loaded with all your toys.. ( grin )


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> True, the percentage may be small overall, but I think the cruisers I see are still quite representative... They certainly represent the sort of demographic most manufacturers, purveyors of gear, etc are targeting... Look at how much space is given by publications such as CRUISING WORLD, or seminars at boat shows, to prepping for the sort of extended cruising adventure that the east coast snowbird's first winter sabbatical represents... Sailing south for the winter, or beyond, from major sailing centers like Newport, or Annapolis, certainly is the culmination of a dream shared by MANY sailors who ultimately desire to sail off into the sunset... These sailors may be relatively small in number each season, but many, MANY more will follow in their wake for generations to come...
> 
> And THAT is the primary reason why I feel this is a subject worthy of discussion...


Jon, I don't disagree with you on many of the points you make. My concern for sailors who venture further afield would be more focused on overall safety than whether or not they sail or motor their way there.

So, having properly stowed gear, being prepared for any kind of weather etc. etc. is where I agree. How they get there ( motor or sail ) is of no concern to me.
That they get there safely, is what I'd like to see.

In your last photo, that vessel loaded the way it is, is not one that I'd take to sea. Do we know what they were doing?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Tempest said:


> In your last photo, that vessel loaded the way it is, is not one that I'd take to sea. Do we know what they were doing?


Yeah, I do feel a bit guilty outing those folks, in a hyperbolic attempt to support my contention that many folks out there seem to be WAY "overboated" when it comes to their tenders... (grin)

That was taken at Samana Cay in the SE Bahamas... That delightful family of 4 sandwiched into that little BCC was departing for Provo, buddy boating with CW columnist Wendy Mitman Clarke and her family on OSPREY, a much larger boat...

I'm guessing he brought the tender aboard in an effort to make better speed in an effort to keep closer to the pace of OSPREY, I would imagine they generally towed that tender, otherwise... Agree with you, however, they were looking at an overnight passage through waters that see quite a bit of shipping traffic, no way would I want to have visibility from the cockpit impaired to such an extent...

They all deserve much credit getting out there in such a small boat, however, and venturing well beyond Chicken Harbor on Great Exuma - which of course is renowned as the furthest south stopping point for many people in far larger boats...

However, I was happy to see them go... their departure left me as the sole occupant for a couple of days in the Columbus Anchorage, one of the most beautiful and remote in all of the Bahamas, IMHO...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Look, the answer is not really that mysterious...motoring is easier, more convenient. Sails have become the auxiliary.

It ain't for me, but there you have it. 

That's why I like ocean racing...no motor, no otto, just pure sailing.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> Look, the answer is not really that mysterious...motoring is easier, more convenient. Sails have become the auxiliary.
> 
> It ain't for me, but there you have it.
> 
> That's why I like ocean racing...no motor, no otto, just pure sailing.


Smack, I don't know if it's quite as simple as that. If all someone does is take their boat out when the wind is up, and had no where else to be when it dies, sure..we'd all sail 100% of the time.

But if you're cruising ( taking an extended trip ) beyond your home waters. 
in an 8, 12, 24, hour day.. you may encounter a variety of wind and sea states. I've been 50 miles off norfolk va. coming home, and the atlantic was like a sea of glass with not a wisp of a breeze. Should I bob around out there like the seagulls waiting for a breeze? Should we sit in a port 50 miles from our next destination..waiting for the wind to pick up? And arrive at a new harbor entrance or an inlet, in the dark?

Port Jefferson Long Island is a nice little country town, I like to visit...it's 70 miles away. I could drive there through NYC and Long island..Traffic..stay in a hotel for the weekend. 
Or I can take my boat, and hope that in the 12 hours that it will take me to get there that I could get 6 hours of good sailing in on the way. I choose the latter.

It isn't easier, I'm not lazy, it simply is what it is. 
If there's wind, I'm sailing.

I once sailed 36 hours non-stop from Cape Fear to Jacksonville, without having to touch the sails, that is the exception though, on the east coast imo. 
After sailing boats of all sizes and shapes for 38 years, I don't owe the sailing meter any coins...or critics of an auxillary engine an explanation. 
But there it is.

I really think people should do what they enjoy doing with their boats, without the " I do it better" judgments of fellow sailors.


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## PJPlovedog (May 23, 2012)

Hmmm 
Maybe I just don't get the context here or the setting. 
Me... we just sail when we can in the San Juan's and motor when we have to. 
I'm not too fancy or getting too much up in my head about it. 
I see the people argue about stuff that doesn't matter and it makes me wonder. 
The sailors I know around here wouldn't give a da**m what you do. We are all good at the end of the day. 
I


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Tempest......... Ditto. Well said.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I'm just speaking generally to the point about why "most people motor". Honestly, I don't give a damn what they do - I'm just saying it is easier and more convenient in many, many circumstances to just motor. No way around that.

Also, temp, I'm "guilty" of exactly the same thing. In a race last summer we dropped into a trough 80 miles out and everything glassed out. It was going to be that way for the next 24 hours and we only had 18 until the cut-off. So we started motoring and took the DQ. It happens.

So I'm not focused on any particular incident - and I don't really care how someone chooses to propel his boat. I'm just saying that there are some "undeniable truths" here that affect people's priorities. But I think they're crazy if they typically choose motoring over sailing.


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## brehm62 (Mar 27, 2011)

christyleigh said:


> If I can't make at least 4 kts in the direction I want to go then the motor goes on.


I laughed when I read this. 4 knots with my 20' boat would actually be a pretty good pace. I think max hull speed for mine is 7.5 knots. My rule of thumb is that if I can go faster with a canoe paddle then the wind is too light.


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## MITBeta (May 13, 2011)

I was out on Greenwich Bay in the upper Narragansett, RI today, and was surprised to see several cruisers, along with me, sitting nearly still with sails up while the motor boats ran all around us.

For me, I HATE my motor with a passion, and would not use it at all if I had the choice. But then, my motor is a 4hp, 2-stroke outboard from the mid-80s, and it came in handy saving my butt today when my rig came down (see my other post...).


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## Guero (Dec 29, 2009)

I've a bunch of trophies and medals from my last 2 years of sailing, been on the podium about 10 times, and I never ***** the guys motoring. Not sure where this mentality come from. I'm just happy that there are still sailboat arounds. I guess when people see me or other guys motoring they feel we're not worthy, that we're not real sailors. They are quick to judge people they don't know about.


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## Geoff54 (Oct 30, 2011)

Earlier this month while chartering we had a crew injury. Nothing life threatening but it required medical attention - the injured person is a doctor so at least the decision was easy. So on a glorious sailing day in the BVI, I fired up the engine and motored for two hours to get to the nearest medical facility as quickly as I could. 

Normally I avoid using the engine as much as absolutely possible and have been known to make disparaging remarks about those sail boats chugging along. But you never know why the other person isn't sailing and I will temper my comments from now on.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*We sail when ever we can, but*

Last Saturday/Sunday, we overnight tripped to a nearby harbor (25 nm away). Sail down was fantastic, one of the best we have done in a long while. Set the course, set the sails, set the autopilot and did a nice close reach at 6+ knots for 4 h at a comfortable 15 degree heel in <1 ft seas.

Coming back, they predicted a change of T-storms in the later afternoon so we left early (10:30) to get back by 3. Apparent wind was ~ 20 deg and in the general direction we had to go. We need about 30 degree apparent to sail to weather. We motored almost all the way back until the wind clocked around enough for us to through up the genny and sail the last 4 nm. Could we have sailed, sure but that would have added time and put us more off shore.

When we do long trips, our timing is based on 4 kt average. If we start out and can't maintain that with sails, we motorsail or just motor. As soon as we get enough wind to sail, we do unless were are going somewhere specific and the wind is in the "wrong" direction in relation to that location.


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