# I'm new to the sailing world! Looking for advice.



## Bells (Feb 27, 2021)

Hello fellow sailors!

My husband and I taking on the world of sailing and we love it! We're not quite ready to sail on are own, but should be ready hopefully by the end of summer. 

We're looking for an inexpensive sailboat to go offshore in. We would like a boat that's between 28ft-32ft. We had our eye on a Catalina. Does anyone have any other recommendations that can get the job done for us to see the world?

Thank you in advance ☺


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## HadziJo (Feb 28, 2021)

Congratulations on making this life-changing decision!
I just left a partnership on a Hunter 34 (great boat) the PO had her in a race from RI to Bermuda late last century. Didn't win, but made it back to Maryland. I believe the partnership is looking to trade up. Blue Heron is an older boat but was originally set up to race to include a hydraulic vang (but we removed the hydraulics from the backstay). Alcohol Stove / Oven (no hard-to-find propane in small ports). the other partners don't race so we installed an A/C unit and an additional water tank. I believe the Catalina 34/35/36 are a tad more spacious in the saloon because they have the table fold up against a bulkhead (but you loos that when you put it down for dinner). Our Hunter survived all sorts of funky weather and my wife and I always felt safe (the dog however always appeared concerned). You may need to replace the sea anchor I believe one of the partners (Joel) may have lost it. My only personal choice would be a slightly longer center cockpit (Hunter makes a great one of these too) if you truly plan to cross oceans.

so if you're in the Baltimore / Annapolis area let me know

Fair winds ⛵


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## MoonBeamEstate (Jan 1, 2021)

Bells said:


> Hello fellow sailors!
> 
> My husband and I taking on the world of sailing and we love it! We're not quite ready to sail on are own, but should be ready hopefully by the end of summer.
> 
> ...


I don't think offshore and inexpensive really go together in a sentence. Unless your idea of inexpensive is a lot different than mine. And you definition off OFF shore is a lot different than mine. Sailing GBU made it to the islands in a 5k boat though. No sure I could live like they do.

So I guess my first question to the group would be. How much do you want to put in the purchase and how much can you afford to maintain it. You will get a lot of answers here from, "go for it on what ever floats" To "Take classes, crew on someone else's and only buy this brand and this size" If you have never boated, it will be a steep learning curve.


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Bells said:


> Hello fellow sailors!
> 
> My husband and I taking on the world of sailing and we love it! We're not quite ready to sail on are own, but should be ready hopefully by the end of summer.
> 
> ...


Whatever boat you get... it will take quite some time to fit it out for live aboard and offshore work... And you'll want to do a lot of local sailing before going offshore. I would give this ramp up a few years maybe 3.

Good luck!


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## Ina (Feb 26, 2021)

Well, fulfill your newfound duty: back up your desire with knowledge (readings, and sailing courses), and be sure to be ready for the commitment! A boat is something that may cost you thousands of $ to buy, but will surely cost you other additionnal expenses before you can go offshore!

You need to figure out, and think about:

1) Purchasing? It’s a commitment. It means you’ll have to care for the boat and probably, you’ll still have to pay for a number of additional expenses after the purchase, as you’ll likely be able to grab on something, but it’ll likely not be perfect for your intent… and need some work-out to bring it to a decent level for going offshore. We are not talking about 2-3k $, but usually 15k+, even if you do everything yourself!

2) Define more precisely your budget – and be sure to have some extra money that’ll go to the kind of expenses I talked about previously. You are ready to spend how many? Always think you’ll spend more than you would have thought.

3) Before making your short list of boats suitable for what you intend, get more information about life at sea. You may want to get on some readings that’ll help you get to a point where you could be more prepared to what going offshore really means, and what to be ready to deal with.

4) Get some learning! Take some swimming, and some sailing classes before you even think about what’ll end up being the boat you’ll choose! Not knowing how to swim and sail will certainly prove it a hard job to plan for getting a boat as you are not ready to maneuver it properly, maintain it to a good shape and get out of trouble you may run into!

5) Get experience… take notes! Visiting others’ boats may give you a good idea of how do they use the space they have! Ask questions so you’ll know what’s vital to bring, and what accommodations/equipment do they have! Remember, most of the people in a marina don’t go offshore! Don’t think everyone who has a boat spends more than a couple of consecutive days on it… It’s not the case!

6) Define what you like: what matters to you: some will be able to live without things that others will not!

7) To see what you can have means caring about how far can you shop for it, how available or easy will be the repairs or any modifications of that boat (such as repairing the engine & etc.), caring about how much time you can afford to spend on it: it will determine when you’ll get it to sea, as if you only spend a couple of hours a month on it, it’ll likely take some years before it’ll be ready for getting offshore!

8) Be sure to get on the boat you think of purchasing before you purchase it, and have a reputable surveyor inspect it!


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Welcome to SailNet and welcome to the wonderful world of sailing. You are in good company in that the past few years a very large number of people have come into the sport saying almost exactly what you have said. We have had close to a dozen on SailNet in the past month.
The people who succeed at getting 'out there' have been methodical about developing a list of what they need to know, doing there homework and an apprenticeship of sorts by doing a lot of research and a lot of sailing.

Sailing requires a certain amount of being realistic, patient, and prudent. It is a very rare person who can start from near zero and get to a reasonable level of competency to go offshore in 5-6 months between now and the end of the summer.

The fact that you are using the terms 'low cost', 'offshore' , and 'Catalina' in the same paragraph suggests that you really are at the very beginning of the process. There is nothing wrong with that, we all started there once upon a time.

But I respectfully suggest that you spend some focused time understanding what makes a reasonably good offshore cruiser, vs a reasonably good coastal cruiser and why what makes each good for their intended purpose means that they are a poor choice for the other purpose.

But the other piece of this is may be in what you mean by Offshore. You can transit most of the US east coast, out in the Atlantic for example, without needing an offshore capable boat. You probably can do the Caribbean as well. But if you are thinking about making a jump across the Atlantic then a coastal cruiser won't cut it without a very large amount of work.

Which gets back to 'low cost'. As others have noted, low cost is in the eyes of the beholder. These days you can find and older boat of a reasonable design in the $10-20,000 range. Boats in that price range may have a design that is capable of distance cruising, but which have some mix of inadequate structural, equipage, and long-term maintenance to be considered as a reasonably well prepared offshore cruiser. An experienced and minimalist sailor who can do all their own work, can plan to spend minimally another $10,000 putting one of these boats into decent offshore capable condition. More realistically, a new sailor will burn through $20,000-30,000 before the boat is really ready to go.

In any event, my best advice is that as you go through the learning process, that you remember that it should be fun. It helps if it is tackled as a team sport with all involved studying all that is involved. While each of you will have aptitudes that let you accel at one area or another, each of you needs to know everything so you can pinch hit if/ when circumstances make that a necessity.

Good luck,
Jeff


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Hunter and Catalina boats are targeted at coastal cruising. To appreciate the types the issues that can arise using a coastal boat offshore, see






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## Bells (Feb 27, 2021)

HadziJo said:


> Congratulations on making this life-changing decision!
> I just left a partnership on a Hunter 34 (great boat) the PO had her in a race from RI to Bermuda late last century. Didn't win, but made it back to Maryland. I believe the partnership is looking to trade up. Blue Heron is an older boat but was originally set up to race to include a hydraulic vang (but we removed the hydraulics from the backstay). Alcohol Stove / Oven (no hard-to-find propane in small ports). the other partners don't race so we installed an A/C unit and an additional water tank. I believe the Catalina 34/35/36 are a tad more spacious in the saloon because they have the table fold up against a bulkhead (but you loos that when you put it down for dinner). Our Hunter survived all sorts of funky weather and my wife and I always felt safe (the dog however always appeared concerned). You may need to replace the sea anchor I believe one of the partners (Joel) may have lost it. My only personal choice would be a slightly longer center cockpit (Hunter makes a great one of these too) if you truly plan to cross oceans.
> 
> so if you're in the Baltimore / Annapolis area let me know
> ...


Thank you so much for your reply! This was very informative. I've heard some good things about Hunters. I'll add it to our list of boat to look into.

I'll absolutely keep you in mind if ever in the Annapolis area.

Fair winds to you too ?


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## Bells (Feb 27, 2021)

MoonBeamEstate said:


> I don't think offshore and inexpensive really go together in a sentence. Unless your idea of inexpensive is a lot different than mine. And you definition off OFF shore is a lot different than mine. Sailing GBU made it to the islands in a 5k boat though. No sure I could live like they do.
> 
> So I guess my first question to the group would be. How much do you want to put in the purchase and how much can you afford to maintain it. You will get a lot of answers here from, "go for it on what ever floats" To "Take classes, crew on someone else's and only buy this brand and this size" If you have never boated, it will be a steep learning curve.


Good morning!

Thank you for your reply. We're currently taking classe and are not looking to offshore until the end of Summer or maybe the beginningof 2022. Just depends how comfortable we are, and of course if we can find a decent boat.. Offshore for us is crossing the ocean.

Our budget for a used boat is 40k. If we don't have to max it that would be better. We'll also have repair money aside to get it ready for sea.

Fair sailing ⛵


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## Bells (Feb 27, 2021)

sailingfool said:


> Hunter and Catalina boats are targeted at coastal cruising. To appreciate the types the issues that can arise using a coastal boat offshore, see
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh this is great! Adding it to my list of things to read.

Fair winds


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## Bells (Feb 27, 2021)

Jeff_H said:


> Welcome to SailNet and welcome to the wonderful world of sailing. You are in good company in that the past few years a very large number of people have come into the sport saying almost exactly what you have said. We have had close to a dozen on SailNet in the past month.
> The people who succeed at getting 'out there' have been methodical about developing a list of what they need to know, doing there homework and an apprenticeship of sorts by doing a lot of research and a lot of sailing.
> 
> Sailing requires a certain amount of being realistic, patient, and prudent. It is a very rare person who can start from near zero and get to a reasonable level of competency to go offshore in 5-6 months between now and the end of the summer.
> ...


 We are grateful to be apart of this community.

Thank you! We are taking everything you said into consideration. Very useful information.

My budget for a boat is 40k, and we put a side 10k for repairs or to get it sea ready.

Reading your post makes me think we might be moving to fast. Lol! We're just really passionate about our new found love, but we might need to take it a step back.

We can admit we're still a little wet behind the ear, but that's why we're here. To learn and grow from others.

Again, thank you so much!

Again, thank you!


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## Bells (Feb 27, 2021)

Ina said:


> Well, fulfill your newfound duty: back up your desire with knowledge (readings, and sailing courses), and be sure to be ready for the commitment! A boat is something that may cost you thousands of $ to buy, but will surely cost you other additionnal expenses before you can go offshore!
> 
> You need to figure out, and think about:
> 
> ...


Loved your list! This was extremely helpful!


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## Bells (Feb 27, 2021)

SanderO said:


> Whatever boat you get... it will take quite some time to fit it out for live aboard and offshore work... And you'll want to do a lot of local sailing before going offshore. I would give this ramp up a few years maybe 3.
> 
> Good luck!


Sounds good! Thank you! 😊


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## captain44 (Mar 6, 2014)

Bells I would liken your question to something such as "I want to buy an inexpensive computer to pretty much do everything a computer can do but I don't know where to start. I sort of like the Dell, but the Mac is nice, but so is the...etc etc etc...Any ideas?" Everyone here has different opinions, sometimes astonishingly different and expressed differently. I think Jeff H has pretty much given you a complete response. As someone who provides this type of professional consulting and services to new and prospective and experienced boatowners, the best answer might very be "Well...it depends....on a lot of things such as..." and then I list them one by one. Or I might say, start small, manageable, low cost and simple but first take basic lessons at a commercial school with other novices. Do NOT focus on any particular boat--there are simply too many varieties and each one has compromises and pluses and minuses. PLEASE refrain from ever saying "cheap, affordable, reasonable or inexpensive" for reasons which are too many to describe now. One marina with only 200 boats has a wider variety of characteristics than an entre NFL stadium filled with 20,000 cars on a Sunday in November--and you already have known about cars since your first ride home from the hospital, so please don't even try to narrow in choices with boats until you understand the differences and variations. Even seasoned professional sailors learn new things every time we go out on the water--and that is the beauty of sailing, so yes--do start...but for at least a little while, hold off on the idea of buying a liveaboard, bluewater cruiser--and when the time is right go for it!


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Don't let the naysayers and "experts" scare you. A Catalina 32 or similar boat could take you just about anywhere with proper prep and planning. The real hard thing is that it is hard to pick a boat before having owned and sailed a while. My wife and went from lessons to sailing a club boat fort 3 months, then buying a 39' boat. We knew after only a few months we had chosen the wrong boat for us, but at time thought the boat was just right. So a Catalina 32 that you could easily sell in a year or so for $5k less than you paid if need is a good started route.


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## skipmac (Oct 31, 2007)

Bells said:


> Good morning!
> 
> Thank you for your reply. We're currently taking classe and are not looking to offshore until the end of Summer or maybe the beginningof 2022. Just depends how comfortable we are, and of course if we can find a decent boat.. Offshore for us is crossing the ocean.
> 
> ...


My opinion, depending on your definition of "offshore" almost any reasonable boat would work; keeping in mind that the most important safety equipment on a boat is the captain and crew.

With a bit of learning and a bit of care including attention to weather, you can safely take 99% of the 28-32' sailboats ever made out into the ocean. If you're talking about crossing the ocean I would drop that down to maybe 50-60%. If you're talking about sailing the southern ocean maybe 20%.

Your budget I think very reasonable and should buy you a very decent boat in that size. Just make sure you have a chunk of money set aside for repairs, maintenance, upgrades, etc. This cost can be reduced a LOT depending on your DIY skills. How are you at wiring, plumbing, woodwork, etc?

If you find boats of interest come back to this forum with details and questions. You will certainly get plenty of answers and opinions, some even useful.

Congrats and welcome to the forum


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## Bells (Feb 27, 2021)

Don L said:


> Don't let the naysayers and "experts" scare you. A Catalina 32 or similar boat could take you just about anywhere with proper prep and planning. The real hard thing is that it is hard to pick a boat before having owned and sailed a while. My wife and went from lessons to sailing a club boat fort 3 months, then buying a 39' boat. We knew after only a few months we had chosen the wrong boat for us, but at time thought the boat was just right. So a Catalina 32 that you could easily sell in a year or so for $5k less than you paid if need is a good started route.


Thanks you! This is very refreshing to hear! 😇


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Few people and especially sailors have lots of money to spend on their boats... especially the DIY people and DIY for maintenance is a sensible approach. Sure there are sailboats costing hundreds of thousands of dollars even over a million. Those owners are not populating this site.

What Bells wants is good value or bang for their bucks. Nothing wrong with that.

If the goal is to sail offshore and live aboard... research the size and types of boats couples who are doing this have.. Most love to write and share their experience. Learn from people who have done it and have experience. There are many YouTubes and vlogs... some are mentioned on SN... I recommend you watch Sailing Uma... a young couple who did an amazing job with an older boat and are out sailing the world.


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## Bells (Feb 27, 2021)

captain44 said:


> Bells I would liken your question to something such as "I want to buy an inexpensive computer to pretty much do everything a computer can do but I don't know where to start. I sort of like the Dell, but the Mac is nice, but so is the...etc etc etc...Any ideas?" Everyone here has different opinions, sometimes astonishingly different and expressed differently. I think Jeff H has pretty much given you a complete response. As someone who provides this type of professional consulting and services to new and prospective and experienced boatowners, the best answer might very be "Well...it depends....on a lot of things such as..." and then I list them one by one. Or I might say, start small, manageable, low cost and simple but first take basic lessons at a commercial school with other novices. Do NOT focus on any particular boat--there are simply too many varieties and each one has compromises and pluses and minuses. PLEASE refrain from ever saying "cheap, affordable, reasonable or inexpensive" for reasons which are too many to describe now. One marina with only 200 boats has a wider variety of characteristics than an entre NFL stadium filled with 20,000 cars on a Sunday in November--and you already have known about cars since your first ride home from the hospital, so please don't even try to narrow in choices with boats until you understand the differences and variations. Even seasoned professional sailors learn new things every time we go out on the water--and that is the beauty of sailing, so yes--do start...but for at least a little while, hold off on the idea of buying a liveaboard, bluewater cruiser--and when the time is right go for it!


Thank you so much to taking the time to share your advice. Much appreciated. Lot of good stuff here.


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## Bells (Feb 27, 2021)

SanderO said:


> Few people and especially sailors have lots of money to spend on their boats... especially the DIY people and DIY for maintenance is a sensible approach. Sure there are sailboats costing hundreds of thousands of dollars even over a million. Those owner are not populating this site.
> 
> What Bells wants is good value or bang for their bucks. Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> If the goal is to sail offshore and live aboard... research the size and types of boats couples who are doing this have.. Most love to write and share their experience. Learn from people who have done it and have experience. There are many YouTubes and vlogs... some are mentioned on SN... I recommend you watch Sailing Uma... a young couple who did an amazing job with an older boat and are out sailing the world.


Thank you! I needed to hear this. You get me and I appreciate it. We're a semi-young couple that feels in our gut this what we really want. We're not rich, but were passionate and dedicated.


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## Layla (Feb 26, 2021)

I'm also new to this, and I liked your post. Please, keep us informed with your experience; I'd love to learn from it.
Good luck!


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## Layla (Feb 26, 2021)

Bells said:


> Thank you! I needed to hear this. You get me and I appreciate it. We're a semi-young couple that feels in our gut this what we really want. We're not rich, but were passionate and dedicated.


I've been looking at the prices of used sailboats for a while. If you ever considered an old school 30ft full keel sailboat and learned to fix it on your own, you would get amazing deals under $20k.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Layla said:


> I've been looking at the prices of used sailboats for a while. If you ever considered an old school 30ft full keel sailboat and learned to fix it on your own, you would get amazing deals under $20k.


There is a very good reason that old long keel boats are almost free. The problem with buying an old school "full keel sailboat" at cheap prices is that they mostly are some mix of:
1) Most boats called 'full keel' are not really full keeled at all but are cut away forefoot with attached rudder that are located so far forward that they have none of the virtues of either full keels or fin keels with all of the liabilities of both.
2) They have rigs and hull forms that are hard to handle, do not adapt quickly and safely to changing conditions.
3) Are so close to completely warn out past the point that they can safely be restored.
4) These old boats sail really badly compared to better designs from the era.
5) they are physically demanding and exhausting to sail.
6) Provide a next to useless platform to learn to sail making a learning curve so steep that a new sailor would be tempted to quit out of frustration.

The point being, the price of buying an older boat is roughly a third of what it would cost to end up with a boat that can be reliability sailed by the time you fix one up. And that assumes you are experienced enough to make the right decisions and do much of the work yourself.

So with the cost of the boat itself being such a small piece of the over all costs of buying and owning a boat, that you are best served by buying the best design you can to pour your heart, soul, and hard earned money into.

This is also why you should sail boats of differing designs before you decide on what boat is right for you and before you give out not very good advice.
Respectfully,
Jeff


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## captain44 (Mar 6, 2014)

Bells said:


> Thank you so much to taking the time to share your advice. Much appreciated. Lot of good stuff here.


It is doable and reasonable and it starts with a dream--many have done it--then you build the dream down to the keel--but beware of those who brag about how smart they are and how they did it etc etc etc..they are the same ones who will warn you about the naysayers. There are potholes, pitfalls, hazards and dangers and easy ways to spend lots of money and get nowhere...literally--and to get hurt. I would urge you not to make buying a boat the priority. Just practice and learn every chance you get. There will always be lots of boats out there for you.


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## captain44 (Mar 6, 2014)

Jeff_H said:


> There is a very good reason that old long keel boats are almost free. The problem with buying an old school "full keel sailboat" at cheap prices is that they most are usually some mix of:
> 1) Most boats called 'full keel' are not really full keeled at all but are cut away forefoot with attached rudder that are located so far forward that they have none of the virtues of either full keels or fin keels with all of the liabilities of both.
> 2) They have rigs and hull forms that are hard to handle, do not adapt quickly and safely to changing conditions.
> 3) Are so close to completely warn out past the point that they can safely be restored.
> ...


Listen to Jeff H.. he knows of what he speaks! But also...there are dozens of posts such as yours, in fact often exactly the same appearing on online forums every week...and so are the usual mixture of replies.


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## Bells (Feb 27, 2021)

captain44 said:


> It is doable and reasonable and it starts with a dream--many have done it--then you build the dream down to the keel--but beware of those who brag about how smart they are and how they did it etc etc etc..they are the same ones who will warn you about the naysayers. There are potholes, pitfalls, hazards and dangers and easy ways to spend lots of money and get nowhere...literally--and to get hurt. I would urge you not to make buying a boat the priority. Just practice and learn every chance you get. There will always be lots of boats out there for you.


Absolutely! Thank you! 😊


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## Layla (Feb 26, 2021)

Jeff_H said:


> There is a very good reason that old long keel boats are almost free. The problem with buying an old school "full keel sailboat" at cheap prices is that they mostly are some mix of:
> 1) Most boats called 'full keel' are not really full keeled at all but are cut away forefoot with attached rudder that are located so far forward that they have none of the virtues of either full keels or fin keels with all of the liabilities of both.
> 2) They have rigs and hull forms that are hard to handle, do not adapt quickly and safely to changing conditions.
> 3) Are so close to completely warn out past the point that they can safely be restored.
> ...


Hi Jeff,
I loved your response and enjoyed reading it. Thank you for making time for this.
1. I want a protected rudder.
2. I'm aware of the issue.
3. Yes, some are like that.
4. Will a modified keel Cape Dory sail horibbly?
5. Against the wind... Probably, not good at pointing.
6. No comment on that.
My first keel sailboat will be something like a Catalina 22 or 25. Hopefully, it'll be a fin keel Catalina 25 (not the Capri) with her capsize formula under 2 and ballast / displacement formula over 40, I think she is a decent boat.
So I'll have a taste of both worlds before I do anything.
Every design has its advantages and disadvantages. Every design decision comes with compromises. Do we really have a right answer here?
Fin keel, modified full keel, bilge keel, bulb keel, or full keel, they all have ups and downs.
There is more I'd like to tell, but I've decided to stop here. Lastly, recommending a proven full keel design is not giving out not very good advice,
Respectfully,
Layla.


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## Bells (Feb 27, 2021)

Layla said:


> I'm also new to this, and I liked your post. Please, keep us informed with your experience; I'd love to learn from it.
> I'm planning to start with a low maintenance Catalina 22. After making myself familiar enough with sailing, a few years later, I will be looking for sonething longer than 30ft. Look forward to learn about your progress. Good luck!


I'm glad I'm not the only newbie on here. Lol!

I absolutely will keep you posted. Please do the same. I've heard good things about Catalina's, in spite some bad. Overall, I'm also leaning towards one myself. Perhaps in the future I will advance to something fancier.

Where have you been practicing your selling at?


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## Layla (Feb 26, 2021)

captain44 said:


> Listen to Jeff H.. he knows of what he speaks! But also...there are dozens of posts such as yours, in fact often exactly the same appearing on online forums every week...and so are the usual mixture of replies.


Hey Captain,
I've written a reply to Jeff's post, but it's waiting for moderator approval. Shortly, I said, 'recommending a proven full keel design is not giving out not very good advice.'


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## Layla (Feb 26, 2021)

Bells said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only newbie on here. Lol!
> 
> I absolutely will keep you posted. Please do the same. I've heard good things about Catalina's, in spite some bad. Overall, I'm also leaning towards one myself. Perhaps in the future I will advance to something fancier.
> 
> Where have you been practicing your selling at?


I have no experience at all at the moment. I want to buy with a ~20ft keel sailboat, a day sailor, and sail it for years. I think a couple of classes at the beginning will be how I start the journey. You are, and will be, way ahead of me, I think.


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

Jeff_H said:


> The people who succeed at getting 'out there' have been methodical about developing a list of what they need to know, doing there homework and an apprenticeship of sorts by doing a lot of research and a lot of sailing.


Jeff offers excellent advice. I just bought my boat, with similar plans, a Bristol 35.5. But I have been researching and reading for about 10 years. Over the past seven or eight years, I have researched types of boats, read all of the debates about fin keel boats versus encapsulated keel boats versus full keel boats. Then in 2016 took a bare boat skippers course, and did several week-long charters of the size of boats I was hoping to buy.

I read Maidentrip, Blue Water Green Skipper, Fastnet Force 10, and Joshua Slocum's Sailing Alone Around the World.

I read lots and lots of boat reviews. I found the boat reviews by the late marine architect Jack Hornor to be particularly helpful.






Boat Reviews







www.spinsheet.com





I chartered boats out of Vancouver Canada, Marathon and Key Largo in the Florida Keys, and twice out of Oriental North Carolina. I just purchased my boat this past season, and will sail it this next season, in the Chesapeake Bay, with possibly a few trips offshore.

Amazon Prime video streaming service has a number of sailing videos as part of the Safe Sailing series, including The Basics of Sailing and The Annapolis School of Seamanship Heavy Weather Sailing with John Rousmaniere. 
Also, Rules of the Road: Maritime Right of Way Rules.

Good luck and Fair Winds.


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## Layla (Feb 26, 2021)

I really wonder now if, let's say, a long keel Dana 24 is a bad sailboat?


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Layla said:


> Hi Jeff,
> I loved your response and enjoyed reading it. Thank you for making time for this.
> 1. I want a protected rudder.
> 2. I'm aware of the issue.
> ...


So here is the thing about this post. You are new to sailing and so are parroting what you heard somewhere. It all sounds well and good until you have spent some time sailing different boats and make an effort to at least understand the basic realities of how boats behave. None of what I have said or that I am about to say is meant as a put down., We all started sailing where you are today. The purpose of this is to suggest that you perhaps should try to keep your mind open so that you can actually learn more quickly and make better decisions. And that perhaps you should avoid handing out advice until you know more about the subject.

I will start by saying that you are not alone in many of these misconceptions. Heck, I have been there myself. But it is important that you understand that there is a lot of misleading out of date and one-sided arguments floating around out there. As a newcomer it is easy to read something and think "Gee that makes sense, I guess it must be true." and then act on it.

But while many of these old chestnuts may sound appealing, often there is way more to the story and what you come to believe simply is not really the case, or at least is only a small part of the reality. Accepting some of these old wives tales is understandable since many of these concepts have been around so long that they have become fully embedded in the court of public opinion. Certainly these ideas have been floated ever since I started sailing and designing boats back in the early 1960's, but that does not make them right.

Take for example your note on number 1. We all want a reliable rudder. But full keels don't necessarily provide more protection than a skeg hung rudder, (or arguably a properly engineered post hung rudder) and generally provides less protection. That is the reason that virtually all quality cruising boats that are currently in production either have post hung or skeg hung rudders. The reason that a keel hung rudder offers less protection is that the rudder on a keel hung rudder is only inches from the bottom of the keel. A -properly designed skeg or post hung rudder is a foot or more above the bottom of the keel and so less likely to touch bottom in a grounding. When a long keel with attached rudder boat runs aground, the rudder more likely to be damaged since it is more likely to end up hitting bottom. The two boats that I was on that damaged their rudders in a grounding were both long keel boats. Here is a picture of my Folkboat in the early 1970's. The first is the boat showing its long keel, and the second is me and my Dad with the new rudder that I had to build.




  








Diana: 1949 Folkboat Restored




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Jeff_H


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Jan 6, 2017












  








Diana: 1949 Folkboat: Dad and I chatting while buildling new rudder circa 1973




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Jeff_H


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Jan 6, 2017








Touching on point #3. I would not say "Yes some are like that." In the past couple years I have helped quite a few people pick out a boat and buy it. I have looked at a whole lot of 'inexpensive' boats of the type that you say that you are looking for, Almost all of them are so close to completely warn out that they are past the point that they can safely be restored. If they are in better shape, salvageable shape and of a decent design, they demand a higher price.

"Will a modified keel Cape Dory sail horribly?" It depends on the specific Cape Dory, but in most cases, the answer is, Yes, they do sail horribly. On most of the Cape Dory Models they are wet and tender. They have miserable roll and pitch motions. They do not sail well in light air and depend on large overlap jibs in those conditions that have a narrow wind range. They do not sail well in heavy air being quickly overpowered due to their lack of stability relative to their high drag and tendency to develop a lot of weather helm. They neither point, or run as well and are at their worst on a reach as compared to better choices from their same era or the eras immediately after. The Alberg designed models in particular have sharply cutaway forefoots and have their rudders very far forward making them hard to maneuver, very poor at tracking, and greatly adding to their weather helm loads,

Similarly, Yes a Dana 245 is not a very good boat on most objective standards. Its only virtue is cramming a lot of stuff into a very short length on deck. By any other objective standard (i.e. seaworthiness, motion comfort, ease of handling, carrying capacity, value, performance, etc.) at least measured relative to their displacement they don't fair as well. They are an expensive caricature of a distance cruising boat. But being a caricature of a cruising boat does not make them a good cruising boat.

I am not sure that either of us understand your answer on #5. I had said,"5) they are physically demanding and exhausting to sail. " and you responded "Against the wind... Probably, not good at pointing." My point dealt with several core points. Because they heel a lot and pitch and roll more than a better design, boats like these are more exhausting on their crews. The higher drag means that they need to carry larger sails making the sail inventory more expensive and physically harder to handle, requiring more physical strength to adjust, and again draining more physical energy from the crew to sail. Because these boats are harder to 'depower' they require more frequent reefs and sail changes.

You mention the Capsize Screen formula. I will point out that in the 50 years since they were penned, both the Capsize Screen Formula and the Motion Comfort Index have been discredited within the yacht design community. Neither formula provides any useful information about the likelihood of a capsize or the probable motion of the boat, since neither of these formulas contain any of the most critical factors (i.e. Buoyancy distribution (heeled and upright), weight distribution, damping, lateral plane area and distribution) that control the behavior of a boat.

So while it may be true that in some rare cases, there are full keeled designs that are proven to be good boat, most were never proven to be any more than what was at hand in an era when safe sailing required much more skill than it does today.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Layla (Feb 26, 2021)

Jeff_H said:


> So here is the thing about this post. You are new to sailing and so are parroting what you heard somewhere. It all sounds well and good until you have spent some time sailing different boats and make an effort to at least understand the basic realities of how boats behave. None of what I have said or that I am about to say is meant as a put down., We all started sailing where you are today. The purpose of this is to suggest that you perhaps should try to keep your mind open so that you can actually learn more quickly and make better decisions. And that perhaps you should avoid handing out advice until you know more about the subject...


All you should've said was the above first paragraph, and I would've understood and had a good laugh at myself. 
Yes, I get carried away when someone brings up the fact that sailing is an expensive hobby. My point was actually more focused on the financial portion of the story; I, surely, shouldn't have mentioned the word full keel, as at that point, I went way above of my advice merit. All I want the original poster to know that there are good deals out there. Let's say, a well eqquiped Catalina 315 can cost over $200k, but a used Catalina about the same size could be bought with a fraction of that price tag. I'm aware that the expenses won't stop there, but still much could be done way under $200k, I assume.
About the rest of your post...
I would like to say thank you for making time for this post and opening my eyes to a different and a more reasonable perspective. I've been asking this question to myself for quite a while - If these old long keel designs were that good, then why wouldn't be more of them seen among the new production boats?
I even started to think the owners of these old boats brag about them to newbies a little too much, maybe just because they are trying to sell!?
Ratios are interesting to me, but I don't think they will be too important in my mind, let's say, one day when I come across a good priced Hunter 27 in very good condition.
I'm far from feeling put down with your posts; I actually feel thankful. You spent a considerable amount of time to enlighten me, and I'm speechless. Again, thank you for this.
Now that you've officially changed my views on keel designs, I may bug you a lot with my novice questions. I'll probably bother you a lot; I hope that will be okay with you.
Anyhow, too early for me to worry about a sailboat over 30ft at this point anyway. I'm eyeing a fin keel Catalina 22 for quite sometime. Before that, I might own a Laser, despite wanting to skip the dinghy phase...
Jeff, thank you again for your long post.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Layla said:


> All you should've said was the above first paragraph, and I would've understood and had a good laugh at myself.
> Jeff, thank you again for your long post.


You are very welcome. I will note that some folks have asked what general area of the country are you in. Various model boats are easier to find in various regions, and there are models that are better or worse suited to certain venues,

Jeff


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## Layla (Feb 26, 2021)

Jeff_H said:


> ...I will note that some folks have asked what general area of the country are you in. Various model boats are easier to find in various regions, and there are models that are better or worse suited to certain venues...


I've noticed that and updated my profile info. Thank you.


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

So you are in the land locked Midwest like I am. I purchased on the east coast on the Chesapeake. It is about the same distance to look at boats on the Chesapeake, as on the Neuse River (NC), and the same distance to the Gulf. It is even possible to buy boats on the East coast, and anywhere on the Great Lakes, and move them by water, around the Great Loop, to Alton Lake in St. Louis, and even down to the Gulf via the Great Loop. I spent a lot of time researching sailing the Great Loop, when I thought I might buy a Great Lakes boat and would take a summer off and sail it around with the Loopers.


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## Layla (Feb 26, 2021)

midwesterner said:


> So you are in the land locked Midwest like I am. I purchased on the east coast on the Chesapeake. It is about the same distance to look at boats on the Chesapeake, as on the Neuse River (NC), and the same distance to the Gulf. It is even possible to buy boats on the East coast, and anywhere on the Great Lakes, and move them by water, around the Great Loop, to Alton Lake in St. Louis, and even down to the Gulf via the Great Loop. I spent a lot of time researching sailing the Great Loop, when I thought I might buy a Great Lakes boat and would take a summer off and sail it around with the Loopers.


Summer


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## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

I found this article. It does not mention the Catalina 22, but I would add that one, having sailed one before.









9 Best Trailerable Sailboats | Life of Sailing


Instead of docking a large boat, you can purchase a small trailerable sailboat. A trailerable sailboat is a perfect option for part-time sailors and people with busy lives.




www.lifeofsailing.com


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## Layla (Feb 26, 2021)

midwesterner said:


> I found this article. It does not mention the Catalina 22, but I would add that one...


I'll read it. TY.


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## danvon (Dec 10, 2012)

Layla said:


> I'm also new to this, and I liked your post. Please, keep us informed with your experience; I'd love to learn from it.
> I'm planning to start with a low maintenance Catalina 22. After making myself familiar enough with sailing, a few years later, I will be looking for sonething longer than 30ft. Look forward to learn about your progress. Good luck!


We see a lot of these "starting to sail" posts - your idea on starting with a Catalina 22 or similar is one of the wisest I have seen. It'll teach you how to handle a keelboat, and won't cost an arm and a leg. When you decide you want a bigger boat you will be in a much better position to know what you do/don't want after doing some sailing & boat work.

And don't be afraid of the Capri 22 (or the 25). You are not going to capsize any of these boats in any halfway reasonable conditions, and the Capris are really nice sailing boats.


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## MoonBeamEstate (Jan 1, 2021)

Sounds like you have some interest in the Cape Dory? Head on over to the Cape Dory Org message board and you can get some good information on a classic. Good first hand knowledge, maybe a little bias to the classic beauty of that time. Kind of Audrey Hepburn vs Lady Ga Ga (sp?)


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## PhilCarlson (Dec 14, 2013)

Bells said:


> My budget for a boat is 40k, and we put a side 10k for repairs or to get it sea ready...


You can do pretty well with this budget. There is a ton of good advice above and you are asking the right questions. A few points:
-A well found boat at a higher price point is less expensive than a fixer-upper. 
-You can burn through 10k pretty fast upgrading for offshore. 
-The classes are an excellent start but you need to sail. Consider that the basic USCG Captains license requires 360 sea days experience which gives you an idea the time required to build a solid skillset. Log your sea days with brief notes. 
-Also consider that in that time, you are going to learn a lot about what you like, dislike, want, and require in a boat. 
-Consider a smaller costal boat to learn on for a year or two.


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## Layla (Feb 26, 2021)

danvon said:


> We see a lot of these "starting to sail" posts - your idea on starting with a Catalina 22 or similar is one of the wisest I have seen... And don't be afraid of the Capri 22 (or the 25)...


Thank you for this. I started to like Capris as well. A fin keel version of Capri 22 would make a great sailboat, I think.


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## Layla (Feb 26, 2021)

A fan of Cape Dory here.


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## MoonBeamEstate (Jan 1, 2021)

Layla said:


> A fan of Cape Dory here.





Layla said:


> A fan of Cape Dory here.


Fantastic Book you may want to read. But it is just what you are contemplating. And you should not say that out loud.


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## Layla (Feb 26, 2021)

MoonBeamEstate said:


> Fantastic Book you may want to read...


I'll read it. TY.


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

Welcome Layla and Bells. I love seeing more young women getting into the sport. I started where you were about 10 years or so ago, never stepped on a sailboat until my mid-30s, fell completely in love at first sail. 

I think most of us come to sailing with big dreams. The challenge with sailing is that the learning curve is enormous. You read about young couples who with some saving and planning shed their life on land and sail the world, but the fine print is always something like 'thank god my partner Chris has been sailing since he was six, circumnavigated with his father as a teenager and is a skilled electrician who can sew his own sails and he was willing to teach me a few things'.

If you want to cast off even if you don't have experience or much money, the approach I would advocate is the one in the book "Get Real, Get Gone: How to Become a Modern Sea Gypsy and Sail Away Forever". He advises people to buy a decent boat and head for some easy tropical waters (lots of lovely places in the Caribbean fit the bill) and learn to sail there. No need to cross oceans! It's expensive to fit up a boat to do that safely, and you are at the mercy of your inexperience for everything that breaks and goes wrong on the way. Want to hang out in Fiji instead? Fly to Fiji and buy your boat there. (There's lots of more questionable advice on the kind of boat to buy, I don't have Jeff H's expertise to weigh in here but always be wary of folks who tell you there's only one kind of decent boat). Honestly, this approach seems like a great compromise between postponing your dreams and biting off more than you can chew. 

Welcome to sailing and good luck!


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## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

emcentar said:


> ......
> He advises people to buy a decent boat and head for some easy tropical waters (lots of lovely places in the Caribbean fit the bill) and learn to sail there. .....


Heading for the Caribbean is not a sail for a novice.


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## Layla (Feb 26, 2021)

emcentar said:


> Welcome Layla and Bells....
> "Get Real, Get Gone: How to Become a Modern Sea Gypsy and Sail Away Forever"


This was very thoughtful, thank you. I'll check the book.


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

SanderO said:


> Heading for the Caribbean is not a sail for a novice.


Don't disagree, I believe his exact advice is to buy a boat in a place like the BVI or Bahamas and learn to sail in those more forgiving waters while living on board.


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## Bells (Feb 27, 2021)

emcentar said:


> Welcome Layla and Bells. I love seeing more young women getting into the sport. I started where you were about 10 years or so ago, never stepped on a sailboat until my mid-30s, fell completely in love at first sail.
> 
> I think most of us come to sailing with big dreams. The challenge with sailing is that the learning curve is enormous. You read about young couples who with some saving and planning shed their life on land and sail the world, but the fine print is always something like 'thank god my partner Chris has been sailing since he was six, circumnavigated with his father as a teenager and is a skilled electrician who can sew his own sails and he was willing to teach me a few things'.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for the encouraging words.

I'm so excited to keep learning and growing.

Also, the book you mentioned, I just added it in my cart.


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## Bells (Feb 27, 2021)

MoonBeamEstate said:


> Fantastic Book you may want to read. But it is just what you are contemplating. And you should not say that out loud.
> View attachment 138594


I just added this book to my checkout list.

Can't wait to dive in.


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## Bells (Feb 27, 2021)

T


PhilCarlson said:


> You can do pretty well with this budget. There is a ton of good advice above and you are asking the right questions. A few points:
> -A well found boat at a higher price point is less expensive than a fixer-upper.
> -You can burn through 10k pretty fast upgrading for offshore.
> -The classes are an excellent start but you need to sail. Consider that the basic USCG Captains license requires 360 sea days experience which gives you an idea the time required to build a solid skillset. Log your sea days with brief notes.
> ...


Thank you! This is very informative. I've noted everything you mentioned here.


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

Good luck ladies! And remember, if you can't pull off untying from jobs and shore-lives, there is something to be said for being a weekend coastal sailor. You still get to sail and watch the sunrise and sunset from the cockpit of your own boat with a glass of wine, there's nothing like it.


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## Layla (Feb 26, 2021)

emcentar said:


> Good luck ladies! And remember, if you can't pull off untying from jobs and shore-lives, there is something to be said for being a weekend coastal sailor. You still get to sail and watch the sunrise and sunset from the cockpit of your own boat with a glass of wine, there's nothing like it.


🍻


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## Salty Cracker (Jul 8, 2020)

Bells said:


> Hello fellow sailors!


Welcome Bells.
I don't intend to hijack your thread beyond asking Jeff to clarify a single point that I spend a lot of time thinking about myself.
Please excuse my intrusion.



Jeff_H said:


> You mention the Capsize Screen formula. I will point out that in the 50 years since they were penned, both the Capsize Screen Formula and the Motion Comfort Index have been discredited within the yacht design community. Neither formula provides any useful information about the likelihood of a capsize or the probable motion of the boat, since neither of these formulas contain any of the most critical factors (i.e. Buoyancy distribution (heeled and upright), weight distribution, damping, lateral plane area and distribution) that control the behavior of a boat.


Hi Jeff. I'm glad you hit on this point because I suspect I may be getting hung up on the design ratios. I spend as much time at Sailboatdata.com as I do Yacht World. I have about memorized all of the ratios that are considered and use them extensively when considering what design I'm looking at. I tend to focus on the Disp./Len. ratio the most.
Are there more accurate ways to compare capsize screening and motion comfort? Or is it too dependent on how a specific boat is set up?
What about the other ratios like:
Bal./Disp.

SA/Disp.

Disp./Len.

S#: The equation incorporates SA/Disp (100% fore triangle) and Disp/length ratios to create a guide to probable boat performance vs. other boats _of comparable size._ For boats of the same length, generally the higher the S#, the lower the PHRF.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Salty Cracker said:


> Welcome Bells.
> I don't intend to hijack your thread beyond asking Jeff to clarify a single point that I spend a lot of time thinking about myself.
> Please excuse my intrusion.
> 
> ...


There are no simple answers here. Motion Comfort Index and Capsize Screen provide no useful information. Period! Probably the best data on capsize comes out of STIX but that is only available on newer models. 
Bal./Disp. 
Bal/disp is only useful when coupled with information about the draft of the boat and the configuration of the keel. For example, boats like mine look good in that they have lead ballast, a reasonable ballast ratio, and a deep draft. But a newer design with a bulb keel and all of the same numbers would have a lot more stability, while a boat with a longer keel and a lower density ballast would have less stability.

SA/D is very helpful and is probably the most predictive of the ratios. But of course even with SA/D there are variables. Most honest boat builders and designers use a standard way of calculating SA using the triangular shape of the mainsail, and mizzen and the 1200% foretriangle. In order to be of any use for comparisons, the formulas do not use the sail area of a genoa or in the case of a cutter of the staysail. But unscrupulous boat builders try to gin their numbers in all kinds of ways. Now then, in order to sail a moderately low drag boat in moderately light air, it takes an SA/D around 23-24 of flown area. That is different than the conventionally calculated area, The closer the conventionally calculated number is to an SA/D of 23-24 the easier a properly designed boat will be to sail and the wider the wind range that it will be comfortable sailing in. That is in part true because to carry that much sail area, the boat needs to be designed with a lot of stability, and with the ability to depower easily in a building breeze.

Disp/Len can also be a bit misleading. Often boats with high Disp/Length are boats with short water line length relative to their length on deck. That means that they are less likely to have a comfortable motion, or have an equal carrying capacity, or have as nice an interior, offer as good performance, be as easy to handle, track as well, or be as seaworthy as a boat that had an identical length on deck, and an identical displacement, but a longer water line. That is true despite the fact that the boat with the short waterline might be touted as 'a heavy displacement cruiser'.

Gotta run,
Jeff


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## Salty Cracker (Jul 8, 2020)

Jeff_H said:


> There are no simple answers here.
> 
> SA/D is very helpful and is probably the most predictive of the ratios. But of course even with SA/D there are variables. Now then, in order to sail a moderately low drag boat in moderately light air, it takes an SA/D around 23-24 of flown area. That is different than the conventionally calculated area, The closer the conventionally calculated number is to an SA/D of 23-24 the easier a properly designed boat will be to sail and the wider the wind range that it will be comfortable sailing in. That is in part true because to carry that much sail area, the boat needs to be designed with a lot of stability, and with the ability to depower easily in a building breeze.


Thank you Jeff.
A SA/D around 23-24 would put me in the "racing dinghies, inshore racers and ocean racing yachts" category.
Should all these ratios be better ignored by somebody in my position?

Here are the numbers I'm looking at. Highlighted in *RED* are what I'm focusing on. 
*Bal./Disp.:*
A Ballast/Displacement ratio of *40 or more* translates into a stiffer, more powerful boat that will be better able to stand up to the wind.*

SA/Disp.:*
A sail area/displacement ratio below 16 would be considered under powered;
Ratios below 14 are suited for motorsailers
14-16 for ocean cruisers 
*16-18 for typical coastal cruisers *
18-20 are seen on racing dinghies, inshore racers and ocean racing yachts.*

Disp./Len.:*
The lower a boat's Displacement/Length (LWL) ratio, the less power it takes to drive the boat to its nominal hull speed.
less than 100 = Ultralight
100-200 = Very Light
150-200 = Light cruiser/racer
*200-250 = Light cruising
250-300 = Moderate*
300-350 = Heavy cruising
275-350 = Heavy
350+ = Ultraheavy*

Comfort Ratio: *
Motion comfort. It provides a reasonable comparison between yachts of *similar size and type*. It is based on the fact that the faster the motion the more upsetting it is to the average person.

Below 20 indicate a lightweight racing boat;
*20 to 30 indicates a coastal cruiser;*
*30 to 40 indicates a moderate bluewater cruising boat*
40 to 50 indicates a heavy bluewater boat
over 50 indicates an extremely heavy bluewater boat.

*Capsize Screening Formula (CSF): *
Designed to determine if a boat has blue water capability. The CSF compares beam with displacement since excess beam contributes to capsize and heavy displacement reduces capsize vulnerability. The boat is better suited for ocean passages (vs coastal cruising) if the result of the calculation is *2.0 or less. The lower the better.

S#: *
S# first appeared (that we know of) in TellTales, April 1988, "On a Scale of One to Ten" by A.P. Brooks . The equation incorporates SA/Disp (100% fore triangle) and Disp/length ratios to create a guide to probable boat performance vs. other boats _of *comparable size*_. For boats of the same length, generally the higher the S#, the lower the PHRF.
Under 2 - Slow, under powered.
*2-3 - Cruiser *
3-5 - Racer Cruiser
5+ - Fast/Racing

I won't belabor this anymore than this last post. Hijack finished. Sorry Bells.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Salty Cracker said:


> Thank you Jeff.
> A SA/D around 23-24 would put me in the "racing dinghies, inshore racers and ocean racing yachts" category.
> Should all these ratios be better ignored by somebody in my position?
> 
> ...


I don't know where the quoted paragraphs and the categorization came from, but they are wildly out of date by 2-3 decades.

Maybe to put this in perspective, look at the numbers on a serious offshore cruising boat like the recent Halberg-Rassey 40c. It's numbers are roughly SA/D =19, L/D=190, Bal/disp=33. This is in no way a light weight, under ballasted, race boat.

So in that regard, it would be easy to think those numbers are worse than useless. But here is the problem with that. Those numbers do have utility when combined with a bunch the other information that take some skill to read and understand. These harder to qualify factors might include waterline beam, beam distribution, hull form, ballast density and distribution sail plan proportions, and so on.

So while I would not tell you to ignore those numbers, I would also tell you that they tell you only a tiny piece of the puzzle.

And to further put this in perspective, by looking at just one of the redlined number, a boat with 40% bal/disp typically means that the boat lacks adequate form stability and so the designer elected to sacrifice a whole lot of carrying capacity in order to try to give the boat passable stability. The behavior of a boat like that is likely to mean that it will sail at high heel angles since for high ballast ratios to provide stability, the boat needs to heel a lot reach equilibrium with it's sail plan.

Jeff


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## Annapolitan (Feb 22, 2021)

Can't offer any useful advice, but welcome from another new member.

Cheers


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