# Sailing around the world with 1988 Beneteau moorings 432



## newsailorbr

Hello all
I just purchased a 1988 beneteau moorings 432 please need advice to sailing around the world start in November or December from Miami, Fl first route southern america down to Brazil after that down to Argentina then to the Pacific it's is possible? any suggestions? this will be my first time with sail Boat


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## capta

Four months from no sailing experience at all to beginning a circumnavigation? Of course it's possible.........help me finish the sentence here folks, please.


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## jephotog

capta said:


> Four months from no sailing experience at all to beginning a circumnavigation? Of course it's possible, by the time you round Cape Horn, you will know if you have bitten off more than you can chew.


Or

Of course it's possible, and what a great shake down cruise rounding one of the Southern Capes.


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## newsailorbr

jephotog said:


> Or
> 
> Of course it's possible, and what a great shake down cruise rounding one of the Southern Capes.


Thank you for the incentive this is my dreaming since i was a lonely boy growing up in a little Farm in Brazil after 43 yrs in USA, now old man and this will be my last adventure b4 i go, here the router o plan to go

Departure November or December 1 Port of Miami Bermuda, Azores, 3 Flores Island, 4 Cape Verdes, 5 Brazil. 6 Argentina 7 to the Pacific any info about this router yours expert sailor may have i will very grateful.
Thank you


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## copacabana

Another (safer) option is cutting out the southern Argentina part. You could go as far as Buenos Aires and then sail north again to Panama and take the canal into the Pacific. I think the stretch around the the bottom of the Americas will require certain skills you may not have acquired by then, not to mention special boat equipment.


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## Jeff_H

Welcome to SailNet and welcome to sailing. So here is the deal, over the years I have worked with a whole lot of new to sailing people who essentially have your dream. The ones that actually make it out there have done an immersion study program and an apprenticeship of sorts. They have identified the dozen topics or more that they need to know about to do something like this and systematically studied their way through those topics. They have spent minimally a year or more sailing the living daylights out of a boat in a broad range of conditions. and getting to know how to sail well. 

They have spent a bunch of time researching a boat that makes sense for their goals, which it appears you have not. While the Beneteau 430 was one of best of the Oceanis series designs for distance voyaging, still the structural specification was basically that of a coastal cruiser rather than a boat that was inherently intended as a 'go anywhere' boat. The Moorings version had anything cheapened that could be and then spent the beginning of its life being ridden hard and put away wet. This boat is 30 years old, started life in the charter trade which is the equivalent to perhaps another decade of wear and tear, and your planned trip around Cape Horn, is the equivalent of 10 to 15 years of normal wear and tear on a boat. 

But ingnoring the induced aging, at 30 years of age, (if the work has not been done already) this boat is ready for new keel bolts, new standing and running rigging, new instrumentation, and an engine rebuild. If you are taking the boat around the horn, the chainplates should be pulled and inspected and potentially replaced. This boat had glued in structural bulkheads and the edges (which are not actually visible) should minimally be inspected and ideally tabbed in rather than relying on being glued in. Ideally, boats that are intended to sail in remove corners of the world are constructed so that the entire skin and systems are directly accessible for inspection and maintenance. The 423 has almost all of these elements hidden behind liners. 

Those that I who have successfully gone and lived the dream, have spent almost a year preparing the boat for the voyage, sailingthe boat and getting familiar with its sailing characteristics, and learning how to work on the boat. And only then have they left on their voyage. Often the first 6 months are a kind of prolonged sea trial and they end up stopping and learning the things that they did not realize that they didn't know and making changes and repairs to those systems that they did not expect to be a problem. 

But if I understand what you have said, you are brand new to sailing, brand new to this boat, chose a boat that was never intended for the harsh conditions of Cape Horn and which has had a tough life, and plan to leave in the next few months. It may be possible, but if you succeed, you will have completed two of the five requirements to being sainted, 1) Shown a heroic virtue, and 2)having performed a verified miracle. 

Jus' saying

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## newsailorbr

Jeff thank you for advice's i'm a very fast learning man know how to find and fixing things my job was find and solve problems in Big Equipment's like Printing press for Newspaper and magazines, Computer and networks was my last job, now i'm doing a lot of researching know how to open water navigation systems i found this software openCPN and sow a very nice prospect on this software i did install it on my Mac-book Pro and study navigation maps I'm going to install all the hardware required by this software alongside with windows base computer system on my navigation station it's may help me a lot what do you think about it?

Ternival


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## newsailorbr

I'm doing right now is striping the all furniture of the boat checking all the core rebuilding the Engine all replacing all the electric wires install new sails install the computer system with Software and hardware like AIS Devices
AIS Cheap VHF Ship Alarm
GPS Devices
Compass SS BYO
NMEA Gateways & Multiplexers
Seatalk & NMEA
Serial Cables
USB to Nmea 2000
USB to Autopilot
Wifi Gateways & Loggers
Wifi Repeater to Tablet PC
Speed Sensors
Wind Sensor/NMEA Output
Autopilot Integration
Voyage Recording
RPI Accessories
Install on RPI & CubieT
TOC
All this is required by OpenCPN i will do all the installation myself
What do you think?


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## copacabana

Ternival, you probably already know this, but in case you don't, the Brazilian government provides free raster charts for the whole coast of Brazil that you can download and use on Open CPN. The link is here:

https://www.marinha.mil.br/chm/chm/dados-do-segnav/cartas-raster

Abraço!


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## Jeff_H

Ternival, 

It helps that you are mechanically inclined because much of sailing is mechanical in nature. But the idea that you are thinking that Navigation is mostly or strictly about learning an computer program, suggests that you don't fully understand the problem. You are going into a part of the world which is poorly charted and where hurricane force winds occur on a frequent basis. I have read accounts of boats riding out weeks of brutal weather tucked into a hole in the wall anchorage. One account described getting pummeled with 30-60 knot gusts for several weeks, and wearing out their anchor chain where the links met and where they dragged on the rocks. And its those crevices that would afford the best protection which are so poorly charted and require piloting skills to enter. But oddly enough, even places that are not at the end of the world can be challenging. For example, its not all that easy to locate electronic harbor charts for places like Portugal. 

In any event, if I were in your shoes, I would sit down and put together a list of all of the things that I would want to know before I set off voyaging such as:
• Boat handling
• Sail trim
• Rules of the road
• Weather 
• Routing
• Boat husbandry, repair and maintenance
• Diesel/ gas engine maintenance and repair
• First aid
• Heavy weather tactics
• Legal restrictions on leaving and entering foreign countries
• Navigation, (Piloting, Celestial, dead reckoning and electronic) 
• Provisioning
• Radio operators license requirements
• Safe and dangerous fish to eat
• Survival skills while the boat is still afloat, but also if you end up in a life raft or stranded ashore. 
• Etc………..

I would spend time sailing your current boat to develop skills, but then I would buy a boat that was actually built purposefully built for the rigors of sailing in the conditions that occur near the great capes. 

Jeff


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## newsailorbr

Thank you for info, that's what i want more and more info i want to be prepare for all that I have a very good skill on Marine engines I will rebuild the Perkins 6.354 completely to make sure not fail on the way i will change my mind to go down to Cape Horn i will live that part for the future but i still want to go to Brazilian coast line


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## Scandium

Watch this!





I'd be scared to sail there in that extreme-weather outfitted steel hull boat! In a ex-charter coastal cruiser? no thanks! 
But good luck to you. Keep us updated.


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## jephotog

newsailorbr said:


> Thank you for the incentive this is my dreaming since i was a lonely boy growing up in a little Farm in Brazil after 43 yrs in USA, now old man and this will be my last adventure b4 i go, here the router o plan to go


It's important for you to know I was following Capta's lead on my comments and being 'tongue in cheek'. Meaning I was joking when I said you should take your first sailing adventure around the Cape. It's not a good idea. While you seemed focused on doing this and are putting the effort into getting your boat prepared. What you are proposing is the equivalent of "I want to learn to climb, I just bought some good boots, a warm jacket and some books on mountaineering, i plan on climbing Mt. Everest, next climbing season," or "I want to learn to box, I just bought some gloves, I am fighting Mike Tyson (in his prime) next week."

Rounding the capes brings you in the roaring 40s(this is the Everest and Tyson of sailing). The people who do this have usually sailed for decades, have a very certain type of boat, prep for years. With all that some don't make it. Meaning some turn back with their boat and ego bruised beyond going forward. Some also don't make it because they die. Read "Two against Cape Horn" to hear what it is like.


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## Scotty C-M

NewSailorBr, I like that people are giving you good advice, and still encouraging you to dream big. For the particular trip that you have described, the advice fits into two categories: The boat, The crew.

Any boat will need extreem preparation. This boat a little more so. I thought JeffH explained that pretty well. Even then, there will be a lot of unexpected tasks to crop up. There's a big difference between going around the Horn and taking the Panama Canal. You might consider both options. How you outfit the boat will be influenced by your route.

You have a great adventure in learning the skills to turn you into a true seaman. It's not really a fixed goal, but rather a (potential) lifetime of experience and studies. Enjoy the process. While you may take a bit longer to be ready for the Horn, every day is getting you closer. Allow yourself the fleibility to gain skills over time, and when you and your boat are both ready, spread you sails to more and more challanging conditions.

Best of luck to you.


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## newsailorbr

Thank you Jeff
You are the man i will follow all this item b4 i start my adventure so in your experience what is the best time of the year to cross the Atlantic north to assures from Miami, Fl ?


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## PhilCarlson

What Jeff said.

Twice.


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## overthehorizon

Invest in some cheap insurance....go to https://www.sailopo.com and sign on one of their Swan trips, preferably from Newport, Rhode Island, in early November, to St. Maarten via Bermuda. You will be on a good boat with an extremely experienced captain...hopefully the weather will be very stormy. Or hire one of OPOs captains to sail with you for at least 2 weeks. This is far cheaper than bumbling your way around and learning from expensive mistakes. However, for any of these captains to sail with you, your boat must be in excellent condition, not a fixer upper in need of fixing. There was an article in this past April issue of Blue Water Sailing magazine about last Novembers, trip to St. Maarten.


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## chicory83

You may want to pick up a copy of Jimmy Cornell's "Word Cruising Routes" to get some insight about how and where to make various passages as you circumnavigate: https://www.amazon.com/World-Cruisi.../ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=


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## newsailorbr

Thank you Scotty
I have to this B4 i go the boat i get need a complete refit i will try to do my best i do not have to much money to invest on the boat i try to do most of the work by myself i know a lot of people in this sailing community have than the impossible to complete they dreaming


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## newsailorbr

there’s going to be battles that you lose, no matter how hard you are willing to fight. But the moment that you give up on yourself is the moment that you give into the chaos of it all. You have to try your hardest to stay in control, no matter how easy it would be to let it all come crashing down.
I will fight for my Dreaming


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## davidpm

New Sailor BR

You have a fantastic adventure planned out. I have an idea for you that will make it even better and 10 times more likely to be successful.

You plan on leaving Florida to go south. 

How about a small modification to your plan. Sail your boat north to Maine then back down to Florida. This would be a fantastic trip. Can you imagine the whole east coast of the US twice?

Here are the advantages for you:

1. Knowledgeable people who speak English with travel lifts all the way.
2. UPS delivery to every marina with no extra fees. It will take a few months of sailing to test your boat anyway.
3. Good charts most of the way.
4. With few exceptions places to stop all the way.
5. Easy to get temporary crew as you learn to be a captain.
6. Enough challenging sailing to get some really good experience but not as challenging as the world trip.

Do your dream this way, and the chance of success goes up significantly.
If you think about it compared to sailing around the world, this is a very doable detour that will set you up for success.

And arguably it might even be more fun. There is so much to see and do on the way and no immigration and language hassles. 

This is supposed to be fun right. So imagine being in the middle of no-where Honduras at the same time trying to figure out getting parts through customs, dealing with locals, learning to sail, navigate, anchor, provision and fix things that break all at the same time.

You sound like a can-do guy that can probably pull it off. But ask yourself, is it going to be fun that way. Go north first have some fun learning then go west.

Stop by in Ct and I'll buy you a drink.


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## newsailorbr

Dear
Davidpm
Thank you for your advice i will do that and you won me a cup of milk i do not drink
I'm going to start working the Beneteau on the 11th this month i let you know the progress of it


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## Sal Paradise

You need to have 50 or more posts to circumnavigate.


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## newsailorbr

Sometimes
It’s always the same. No matter who you are or what you do, we all go through it. Maybe it’s a bad relationship, maybe it’s disappointment or losing a friend.

Maybe it’s making a wrong choice and having to deal with all that comes with it. Maybe it’s something small that builds up or maybe it’s something that rocks your whole world. 

in my world there no place for failing, all the challenges i had i when true it with no ease time i's was hard all the time


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## capta

newsailorbr said:


> there's going to be battles that you lose, no matter how hard you are willing to fight. I will fight for my Dreaming


Unfortunately, if you lose the battle with Cape Horn, you will most likely lose your life. You can't lean much from that.
I can't for the life of me understand why you would want to sail Miami, Bermuda, Azores, 3 Flores Island, 4 Cape Verdes, 5 Brazil, when the logical route to gain sailing and cruising experience would be Mia, the Bahamas to the Caribbean and then to Brazil. Where did you get the idea that crossing the North Atlantic eastwards in the winter would be a good idea, or that even crossing the Atlantic twice to get to Brazil from Miami is the best route, never mind choosing Cape Horn over the canal in a 43-foot ex-bareboat?
There are so many books and threads on the various forums out there about this stuff, that it seems you have come on here completely unprepared, without doing the slightest research on your own.
As I said in my original post on this thread, anything *is* possible, but next November (a year from this November) would be a much more realistic departure date.


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## newsailorbr

Thank you for the Replay I will take in consideration all advises I came here to get advises from the experts if i'm not welcome here please let me know i can live thanks


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## hellosailor

Strongly suggest buying Jimmy Cornell's "World Cruising Routes" which pretty much tells you the best and worst times of the year to make any passage between any two major points. along the way that will expose you to pilot charts, which will give you an idea of what prevailing wind strengths and directions are. You need to be able to access that kind of historical data, to tell you what can be expected, all over. In some places it is published, in others it is available online as data that has been recorded live by buoys and you can get far more detail.
checking into weather prediction services and software and getting familiar with them would be a priority, since running solo across oceans or down lee coasts is either safe or incredibly dangerous--depending on the conditions you are going out in. In some parts of the world, that information is accurate and easily available. In others, it still isn't.
And that includes information on the larger ocean currents, and how they are moving and shifting. When the wind and current add up the wrong way, there are times when you just can't (or can't safely) go from here to there.


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## richardjon

Hi Jeff, your post is very interesting, I have not found anyone able to explain it as well, about the reality and boat requirements If you were to choose a suitable boat what would be your choice be, what length and hull design? Do you have any knowledge of the Hunter - Legend 37.5 does it fit into the category of crossing the ocean?

Richard


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## jephotog

richardjon said:


> Do you have any knowledge of the Hunter - Legend 37.5 does it fit into the category of crossing the ocean?
> 
> Richard


Go here for a list of recommended bluewater boats:
Sailboat Reviews of Offshore Cruising Yachts : Bluewaterboats.org

Most of these boats are heavier full keel boats. The Hunter 37.5 has a good reputation as a coastal cruiser but does not fall into this category.


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## Jeff_H

newsailorbr said:


> Thank you for the Replay I will take in consideration all advises I came here to get advises from the experts if i'm not welcome here please let me know i can live thanks


No one is saying that you are not welcome. In fact I would venture to say one of the reasons that SailNet exists is to help new sailors through the process of getting into the sport and achieve their goals.

But the reaction that you are seeing is the well considered advice from experienced sailors. Like many beginning sailors you have set an ambitious goal and a near impossible timeline if you want to meet that goal with a reasonably safe amount of risk.

I think most of the advice that you are receiving suggests starting from the beginning of a learning process, be methodical in skill building, be flexible with your plans because as you learn more you will find that they make very little sense when viewed from the perspective of experience and knowledge based decision making.

We all started out where you are in terms of not really understanding what it takes to do the things we dream of doing. When we tell you that your plan is not realistic, we are not telling you to give up your goal, or suggesting that you can't ever do what you are proposing. We are trying to suggest a more practical and safer and faster method to achieve what you want to do.

The push back relates to what appears to be an effort to start at the end of a reasonable learning process, and avoid the heavy lifting that needs to happen from where you are now to where you want to be.

That apparent desire to move too hastefully through a learning process is evident in the type of questions that you are asking, and has already led you to make a big mistake in terms of buying the wrong boat for what you want to do with that boat.

While the internet can steer you to good sources to learn from, can advise you on a reasonable sequence of learning and growing, and can answer questions that might arise along the way, forums like SailNet cannot be your sole source of information.

But the other thing about sailing is that many questions have no universally correct answer beyond "it all depends....." What forums can do is expose some of the parameters of the factors and opinions that would allow you to make decisions that make sense to you and your situation.

In that regard, searching past discussions will result in pages of detailed debate on many topics so that when you ask a question, it is meaningful and clearly focused, rather than the 'how long is a piece of string?' type questions that new sailors often ask.

No one here wishes you ill will. No one here wishes that you fail to achieve your goals. But at the heart of it all, there is a lot of work involved in learning and doing what you want to do. Sailing forums can only assist you with general recommendations that act as the type of a road map that appears on a place mat in a restaurant and tips, answers and advice that reduce the size of the bumps in the road.

The denisons of sailing forums can't really replace the hard work and heavy lifting required to achieve your dream. Only you can do that hard work. So when you see frustration in some of the comments, it is because you are only one of very many new sailors who have come here with big ideas, looking for all the answers, and not realizing that at best we can only ride shotgun, and that only you are the driver. We can give you our best advice not to drive over the cliff but we can't make you avoid actually driving your dream over the edge of the precipice. And that is what most of the comments above are about.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## Jeff_H

richardjon said:


> Hi Jeff, your post is very interesting, I have not found anyone able to explain it as well, about the reality and boat requirements If you were to choose a suitable boat what would be your choice be, what length and hull design? Do you have any knowledge of the Hunter - Legend 37.5 does it fit into the category of crossing the ocean?
> 
> Richard


I think that the Hunter Legend 37.5 was one of the best designs that Hunter ever produced. These were good all around designs. If you found one in good shape, and you didn't encounter severe weather, I am sure that a knowledgeable skipper could safely sail ine across the Atlantic. But there is a lot about the way these boats are built (hull to deck joints, full pans, slurried in framing, etc.) that would make them a poor choice for that, especially now that these boats have a couple of decades of use on them.

I am not a believer that a transoceanic voyaging vessel needs to be heavy, or have a full keel. I bought my own boat (a comparatively light, fin keel, spade rudder 38 footer) planning to sail her to Europe when I retire, and knowing that she and her sisterships have made a lot of transatlantic passages. But in selecting this design I set up specific criteria and did a lot of research.

Jeff


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## newsailorbr

What's make a good blue water Boats? not for luxury or race just for cruise around the world and live aboard with


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## newsailorbr

it's not the Boat make the Sailor is the Sailor make any Boat go any ware he's want to go just go true the history of sailors 

today's everything in this world is about to make money and be reach, People, Corporations Nations

I born in the most reach land country in the world, but we have the most corrupted Government in the world the people put the President in jail but not for to long he will be released soon and going to screw up the country again and again thanks god i'm not going to live to long to see this new generation of Yong people around the world live in this "call new world" full of Corrupted governments.

I try to fig out why people want so much money to make a living? 
I 63 yrs old and live in Houston TX and I make 2k per month and i have a nice life with basics thing i need to survive

Now is time to moving forward to a new challenge live in the Oceans util i go!


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## capta

newsailorbr said:


> What's make a good blue water Boats? not for luxury or race just for cruise around the world and live aboard with


Again, this question has been asked and answered thousands of times on this and every other sailing forum. Try a search, read what's already been posted, then come back with specific questions. Help us help you.


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## newsailorbr

Why you came here to tell me that?
i open this to read from the experts what they advice is about sailing if you fill uncomfortable with this please do not replay or if i'm not welcome in here i can live no problem


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## richardjon

Thanks for this link, it makes its good to see at a glance list of suitable boats, you mentioned your boat is 38ft, do you have any viewpoints on the minimum length of boats that are worthy for world cruising, apart from comfort and ability to hold more people and speed. The cost of larger boats seems to rise steeply over about 38ft. I have heard sometimes a larger boat has the disadvantages in that it can be harder to find berths in some marinas for much more than 40ft. 
I guess where possible it would be better to anchor in sheltered places and use a tender to go ashore if and when necessary.


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## Jeff_H

newsailorbr said:


> it's not the Boat make the Sailor is the Sailor make any Boat go any ware he's want to go just go true the history of sailors
> 
> today's everything in this world is about to make money and be reach, People, Corporations Nations
> 
> I born in the most reach land country in the world, but we have the most corrupted Government in the world the people put the President in jail but not for to long he will be released soon and going to screw up the country again and again thanks god i'm not going to live to long to see this new generation of Yong people around the world live in this "call new world" full of Corrupted governments.
> 
> I try to fig out why people want so much money to make a living?
> I 63 yrs old and live in Houston TX and I make 2k per month and i have a nice life with basics thing i need to survive
> 
> Now is time to moving forward to a new challenge live in the Oceans util i go!


Nothing in that post has any bearing on the reality of doing what you want to do. If you are a sailor, that post is all gibberish.

For example, when you hear people say, the sailor who makes a boat go anywhere, they mean a knowledgeable, experienced, and skilled sailor can sail a boat through conditions for which that boat, or any boat is not well-suited. But what you ignore is that a knowledgeable, experienced, and skilled sailor would know better than to chose a totally ill-suited boat to place in harms way.

And its not about having money or not having money. Its not about corporate greed or corrupt governments. It is about understanding the realities of what you are proposing. There are very good, well suited distance cruisers which can be purchased for less than $30,000 and which would be comparatively easy and low cost to maintain. You have not chosen one of them, and at this point in your learning process you do not understand why people are saying that, and so are choosing to look for some conspiracy theory which does not exist. It is about physics and material science, and not about some kind of geopolitical corporate conspiracy.



newsailorbr said:


> Why you came here to tell me that?
> i open this to read from the experts what they advice is about sailing if you fill uncomfortable with this please do not replay or if i'm not welcome in here i can live no problem


He is telling you this because he knows that within SailNet's archives there are several multi-year long discussions on this very topic. Within those discussions are some very detailed descriptions of the issues and criteria involved in selecting a boat to go offshore vs a coastal cruiser like the boat that you have purchased. The discussion includes comments by yacht designers, professional skippers, people with 50 or more years of sailing experience, people who are new to the sport, people on limited budgets and people who come to the discussion ignorant of the questions and positions that they are stating who none the less get responsible and responsive answers. But beyond that he is telling you this because he is one of the most experienced sailors on SailNet, he, himself has done a circumnavigation on a comparatively small boat, and he has spent his life sailing in both casual and challenging conditions. He is not trying to make you leave, he is trying to ground you in reality for your own good. If someone is going to be responsible in how they respond to questions, they cannot be here to validate ill-conceived notions, but instead to provide guidance on how to make a general plan succeed.


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## Don L

It’s always sad to me when a wannabe asks a question and then gets into an argument with a bunch of faceless internet posters. Here we have someone asking a question they probably aren’t ready to get an answer for because they don’t have a solid enough base for the answers, which is also being answered by people who haven’t done the item under discussion and who answer based on some internet falsehood learned misconceptions.


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## Don L

newsailorbr said:


> What's make a good blue water Boats? not for luxury or race just for cruise around the world and live aboard with


One that floats. After that it's all about comprise and luxury.

Had a longer post but the server wouldn't connect and I'm not typing it again


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## newsailorbr

I did know you guys hate new sailor and make me so sad i came here to learn and rear from the Expert sailor not to open a conspiracy theory 
Thank all for the help please do not right anything more in here i will try to delete this


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## Jeff_H

Don0190 said:


> It's always sad to me when a wannabe asks a question and then gets into an argument with a bunch of faceless internet posters. Here we have someone asking a question they probably aren't ready to get an answer for because they don't have a solid enough base for the answers, which is also being answered by people who haven't done the item under discussion and who answer based on some internet falsehood learned misconceptions.


Funny it delights me when a person comes aboard with a big dream and they get a responsible thoughtful answer from someone who has done almost exactly what the OP proposed to do and responds in a manner which is not dismissive of the long range goal. Or others provide answers that take him seriously and provides guidance based on sailing tens of thousands of miles on a wide range of boats in a wide range of conditions. Or an answer from someone who has engineering background, designed boats, and had very complete information on how this particular boat was actually constructed. Or he might input from someone whose primary experience comes from running a boat up and down the ICW. And hopefully out of that discussion the new sailor will develop a plan plan that gives him a chance of success.


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## contrarian

Does seem to be a lot of superiority complex going on. I'm pretty sure there have been many boats less capable than a Bene 432 that have made prolonged ocean passages. (Ethnic slur removed per forum rules- Jeff_H, SailNet Moderator)


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## Don L

Jeff_H said:


> Funny it delights me when a person comes aboard with a big dream and they get a responsible thoughtful answer from someone who has done almost exactly what the OP proposed to do and responds in a manner which is not dismissive of the long range goal. Or others provide answers that take him seriously and provides guidance based on sailing tens of thousands of miles on a wide range of boats in a wide range of conditions. Or an answer from someone who has engineering background, designed boats, and had very complete information on how this particular boat was actually constructed. Or he might input from someone whose primary experience comes from running a boat up and down the ICW. And hopefully out of that discussion the new sailor will develop a plan plan that gives him a chance of success.


Aren't you so great

I don't believe the op is feeling helped


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## Jeff_H

Don0190 said:


> Aren't you so great
> 
> I don't believe the op is feeling helped


Obviously you have missed the point of this forum. I and most members of this forum try to provide the most helpful input that we can not because it somehow does something for us, but because as sailors we believe in helping fellow sailors in much the same way as fellow sailors helped us along the way. In that regard, it is not at all about me, or the fact you have concluded that I am great.

And while I can't read the OP's mind, when I read the majority of the OP's posts he seems to appreciate the constructive posts that some have made.

But the OP being new to this forum and new to sailing, the context of the comments may not be obvious, and for any one to decide the validity of divergent comments, it is helpful to have some framework to understand who and why things are being said, and to separate gratuitous, meaningless comments from those of people who genuinely care about his wellbeing and are providing the best advice thier experience leads them to provide.

Hopefully that will help the OP succeed but if it doesn't it is not due to a lack of trying.

Respectfully
Jeff


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## Capt Len

Well and graciously said. Jeff. I'll hold off on the derisive snort a while longer.


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## caberg

50/50 the OP is a troll just having fun. Seems the odds are about as good that he's some guy who entertains himself by engaging people in argumentative discussions about fictional ideas, as the odds are that he just bought a 30 year old ex-charter boat to start a circumnavigation this fall with no prior sailing experience. I mean, maybe the latter is true. There are all kinds of crazy out there. Could go either way.


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## Jeff_H

contrarian said:


> Does seem to be a lot of superiority complex going on. I'm pretty sure there have been many boats less capable than a Bene 432 that have made prolonged ocean passages.


It is not about 'superiority'. It is about trying to provide appropriate advice by experienced sailors to someone who is new to sailing and contemplating a very ambitious feat. I don't think that any of us have said that a Beneteau 430 (there is no such thing as a Beneteau 432) can't make a prolonged ocean passage. In fact, the general recommendation was for the original poster to work his way up to doing some prolonged ocean passages as a way to learn his boat and learn about offshore sailing.

But the original post was talking about doing a circumnavigation via Cape Horn and the Great Capes. He was talking about rounding Cape Horn "the wrong way", meaning an upwind against the sea state rounding. And also, he was not talking about doing this in a Beneteau 430, but a Moorings 432 version of that boat, which is a cheapened version of the Beneteau 430.

The concerns in part come from the fact that this boat is now 30 years old, started its life in the charter trade, which is much harder on any boat, and was never constructed or laid out for the abuse and needs associated with high latitude sailing.

To explain the basis of why this is so from a construction standpoint, this was one of the first Beneteaus with glued in structural bulkheads instead of tabbed in bulkheads, and had comparatively few 'main bulkheads' and no ring frames. Glued in bulkheads greatly increase localized fatigue and delamination stresses around the connections to the skin. The mix of being in the charter trade, and high latitude sailing would accelerate that fatigue and delamination process.

Similarly, in terms of offshore cruising into the high latitudes, when you look at the layout of the Moorings 432, there is a general lack of storage as compared to more dedicated heavy weather cruisers. There isn't a single sea berth. The galley is laid out in a manner that would be dangerous to use in extreme conditions.

That is not snobbery, but just a matter of pointing out the obvious.

Jeff


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## MarkofSeaLife

Jeff_H said:


> It is not about 'superiority'. It is about trying to provide appropriate advice by experienced sailors to someone who is new to sailing and contemplating a very ambitious feat. I don't think that any of us have said that a Beneteau 430 (there is no such thing as a Beneteau 432) can't make a prolonged ocean passage. In fact, the general recommendation was for the original poster to work his way up to doing some prolonged ocean passages as a way to learn his boat and learn about offshore sailing.
> 
> Jeff


Sorry Jeff, but this is just bulltwaddle of the highest order.

I am not even going to start on this as I refuse to waste my breath.

Go sail one.

Mark


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## Don L

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Sorry Jeff, but this is just bulltwaddle of the highest order.
> 
> I am not even going to start on this as I refuse to waste my breath.
> 
> Go sail one.
> 
> Mark


Mark I think he is saying that Sea Life's big sister is a lazy ugly pig!


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## contrarian

I wonder if XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXwould be considered an ethnic slur ????? (No but it would be considered a personal attack, which was removed in accordance with Forum Rules- Jeff H SailNet Moderator)


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## Captain_Mike13

I have to agree With Jeff H on this! What you are doing is very risky! There are too many people watching S/V Delos and thinking they too can go around the world and that it's all a big party. If you are going to do it I would suggest a better sailboat, something like a Hans Christian, an Amel 55. I would also suggest taking a year to learn your sailboat and how she sails and learn every system on the boat, and getting lots of spare parts too. I would also suggest taking it out in some storms because sailing around the world and through the Horn, you will see some big waves and nasty weather. You don't have to listen to me though, I am just trying to make some suggestions to make your trip safer and more pleasurable. Go take a Coast Guard Aux Course at least, and learn how your boat sails before taking off into the Deep Blue Sea! Good Luck too you! I wish you fair winds and good weather my friend.


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## Jeff_H

Don0190 said:


> Mark I think he is saying that Sea Life's big sister is a lazy ugly pig!


You should try to keep your facts straight. Let me see if I can clear this up for you.
1) My comments were on the Moorings 432, which is a value engineered, charter version of the Beneteau Oceanis 430, an IOR based design, which was a considerably earlier design than Mark's 393, which is loosely based on Open Class design principles. The big sister to Mark's boat is a Beneteau 423. (same numbers different order, very different boat) 
2) I believe that the only person who used the term "Sea Life's big sister is a lazy ugly pig!" occurred in a post by somebody going by the member name of Don0190. Personally, I never would have said anything like that and can't imagine why someone would have.


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## Don L

its because you don't have any humor


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## Scotty C-M

I believe the advice given on this thread has been pretty good.

The boat: Any boat that is going to take this kind of voyage needs extensive preparation. This particular boat has particular design charactoristics that would need to be addressed. The advice seems accurate, and if anything, does not go far enough to point out how complex a task this will be. 

The trip: A Cape circumnavigation is one of the hardest feats in sailing. People spend years getting ready: equiptment, experience and spiritually. This is a big deal, and pointing that out is not negative nor condescending. The OP asked for advice. He got good advice.

The skipper: He made it clear that he was inexperienced. The advice to get experience was pretty appropriate. I particularry like the idea of a shakedown cruise up and down the east coast of the USA. Lots of interesting sailing, places to refit with access to materials, stores and people to help. I also liked the idea of going through the Panama Canal. A much easier learning curve.

About Jeff's sence of humor. Gee Don, get a room. If you want to make personal comments, do it off-line where we don't have to listen to it. Besides which, anyone who describes himself as a "Rhrinestone in the rough", has to have a sence of humor. Just not a very funny one!! (Sorry Jeff, just couldn't help myself ...:wink. ). I don't always agree with Jeff, but I respect his experience and his efforts to be helpful. As a Moderator, he has stepped in to delete racist comments, and personal rudeness on this thread. I'm glad he did so. I think that it is ironic that he left in the rude comment about his sence of humor. Probably because he had his "Big boy" pants on.

And no, I am NOT going to go into what I think about taking my Catalina 400 around the Capes ... even the "right" way!! :2 boat:


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## jephotog

Jeff,
I think Don and Mark see you trying to educate a noob sailor of the skills needed to sail around the world via the capes and the limitations of his boat and as a direct attack on their boat choices. At least Catalina owners, know better than try to defend their boats sea-worthiness to sail the Roaring 40s the wrong way.


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## Jeff_H

richardjon said:


> Thanks for this link, it makes its good to see at a glance list of suitable boats, you mentioned your boat is 38ft, do you have any viewpoints on the minimum length of boats that are worthy for world cruising, apart from comfort and ability to hold more people and speed. The cost of larger boats seems to rise steeply over about 38ft. I have heard sometimes a larger boat has the disadvantages in that it can be harder to find berths in some marinas for much more than 40ft.
> I guess where possible it would be better to anchor in sheltered places and use a tender to go ashore if and when necessary.


I am not of the 'buy a big boat' school of thought. I don't have time to get into detail, but my general approach is to select a boat by displacement rather than length. Growing up there was a rule of thumb for distance cruising which was to allow roughly 2 1/2 to 5 long tons of displacement per person. That ends up being around 5,000 to 11,000 lbs per person. With better hardware and sail handling gear those numbers have crept up quite a bit, but I personally find 11,000 to 12,000 lb displacement to be pretty comfortable to handle single-hand, and boats up to 17,000-18,000 lbs manageable but less convenient. Then comes personal preference. If you are performance oriented, an L/D around 160 is adequate to perform well yet have a reasonable carrying capacity. That ends up being a 37-39 footer. If performance is less important then an L/D around 200 or slightly above can still sail well even if they are not particularly sterling performers. That starts to drop down around 35 feet or so.

If you are a traditionalist, there are a number of older designs in the 32 foot range that are fully up to the task. And if you are a minimalist, boats like the 25-26 foot Folkboat derivatives have made successful transatlantic passages.

Its all about the trade-offs that you are comfortable making. In the big picture, if I am looking for a boat that I can take offshore (especially if going to the high end of the middle latitudes), ideally I would want a boat with a minimal amount of hull liner, with tabbed in bulkheads and glassed in framing rather than glued in components, and construction details which make accessing all of the systems and fastenings for maintenance relatively easy.

I also look at the layout of the boat and ask basic questions: Can I cook and use the head on both tacks? Can I move safely about the cabin in rough conditions? Is there a safe place to sleep on both tacks that is near the companionway and not sleeping in the bilge? Is there decent storage and tankage? Does the deck hardware make sense in light and heavy air? Is there a manageable way to deal with proper ground tackle? Is there a way to deal with full storm conditions (i.e. close down the boat reasonably water tight, safely rig storm sails and so on? Is this a design that can be steered by a windvane? How vulnerable are the foils? and then a long list of subjective preferences.

Jeff


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## Jeff_H

Don0190 said:


> its because you don't have any humor


Now that is very funny! You, sir, obviously do have a great sense of humor.


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## outbound

They say rounding that cape the wrong way is comparable to climbing Everest. Personally would want to be in something designed for that function. Perhaps something like Ed Joy’s Seal.
I, like my sisterships, do passages. Nothing of the magnitude of many posting here but enough to qualify for OCC membership. My boat was purpose built for short handed ocean passages not charter trade use. In spite of that it is not a high latitude sailboat. It wasn’t built for that purpose. The same reality holds here. It isn’t about ego nor size of your stones. People need to get real. Although JeffH and I have different concepts about what design features, sail plans and other details are best for a ocean boat we agree on the fundamental principles and his comments here are entirely concordant to those principles.
Smack used to hold up multiple examples of various boats that made successful passages as “proof” they were ideally suitable for those activities. This is specious thinking. I took a triumph bonneville cross country. I made it. It was stupid. Would have been a much more pleasant and safer trip on a Wing or GS.


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## Bleemus

I think this is Smack trolling us. New sailor, 64 years old, around Cape Horn the wrong way in a Beneteau. If he said a Hunter we would know he has returned. Nice try Smack.


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## MastUndSchotbruch

Bleemus said:


> I think this is Smack trolling us. New sailor, 64 years old, around Cape Horn the wrong way in a Beneteau. If he said a Hunter we would know he has returned. Nice try Smack.


His asking surreptitiously for the definition of a blue water boat (post #32) gave him away


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## davidpm

I hope newsailor doesn't feel like I'm betraying a confidence but I offered my help via messaging and he told me a little more about the boat. 

It is a hurricane boat with a hole in it that he paid 2k for. 

I offered my help because I like his enthusiasm and fearlessness. 

He did seem willing to take the advise and do an east coast trip first.

I'm not sure he understands the reason a boat gets discounted to 2k and what that entails.

He is not from FL and is basically changing his whole life around to take on this project.

I wish him well.


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## jorgenl

davidpm said:


> I hope newsailor doesn't feel like I'm betraying a confidence but I offered my help via messaging and he told me a little more about the boat.
> 
> It is a hurricane boat with a hole in it that he paid 2k for.
> 
> I offered my help because I like his enthusiasm and fearlessness.
> 
> He did seem willing to take the advise and do an east coast trip first.
> 
> I'm not sure he understands the reason a boat gets discounted to 2k and what that entails.
> 
> He is not from FL and is basically changing his whole life around to take on this project.
> 
> I wish him well.


He should be good to go then!!!!


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## Capt Len

Ha, Slocum did the trip, with an old wooden boat. When all the electronics fail ,just whip out the manual 'Sailing Alone Around the World 'and ask yourself, 'What would Josh do?


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## rbrasi

This has been a fun thread to follow. It's been a while since we've had a good donnybrook on SN. The absence of the aforementioned Smack might have a little to do with it. IMO, Jeff has been patient and thorough in dispensing of knowledge (so much so that I skimmed most of it, but still). I think the OP is far too thin skinned and let his lack of fluent English get to him. Nothing makes my day like the old "I bought my first boat and I'm going to sail across ocean X!" post, and the inevitable flame throwing and disappearance of OP.


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## contrarian

> Ha, Slocum did the trip, with an old wooden boat. When all the electronics fail ,just whip out the manual 'Sailing Alone Around the World 'and ask yourself, 'What would Josh do?


Unfortunately Mr. Slocum didn't have access to SailNet and the vast amount of self proclaimed knowledge and experience of it's members to advise him of how utterly inadequate his vessel would be for the journey ahead of him. Look how that turned out for him.

Here's a link that shows just how much boat it takes to round the Horn. Starting about 9 minutes in if you want the short version.






well so much for the link...... You'll just have to do a search for : 2 hobie 21SC's around cape horn

I don't think these guys had access to SailNet either


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## davidpm

Ok, I watched the video of the guys sailing cape horn on Hobie's. I'm not sure what the video proves. They were well funded their jackets cost more than the OP's boat. There were at least 3 guys who were obviously in their prime and experienced and were doing something crazy for publicity and probably took months to prepare for the event.

The video was cool, thanks but has little relevance to the OP's question.

The video is available I did have to search a bit to find it.


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## outbound

I’ve read both of slocums books several times. He was an extremely skilled sailor and navigator. A truly remarkable man. He was quite diligent in his prep and extremely driven by his need to provide for his family. 
In no way is he comparable to the OP. I don’t hold a candle to his brilliance as a sailor nor do few here. One could argue about his sanity just before his death but not his cold hard totally objective view of the remarkable voyage he undertook.


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## jephotog

davidpm said:


> Ok, I watched the video of the guys sailing cape horn on Hobie's. I'm not sure what the video proves. They were well funded their jackets cost more than the OP's boat. There were at least 3 guys who were obviously in their prime and experienced and were doing something crazy for publicity and probably took months to prepare for the event.


I also noticed times where both boats were being filmed at the same time with 2 guys on each boat. So they had a support boat following them at least for part of the voyage.


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## midwesterner

Jeff_H said:


> newsailorbr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the Replay I will take in consideration all advises I came here to get advises from the experts if i'm not welcome here please let me know i can live thanks
> 
> 
> 
> No one is saying that you are not welcome. In fact I would venture to say one of the reasons that SailNet exists is to help new sailors through the process of getting into the sport and achieve their goals.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jeff
Click to expand...

Actually Jeff, Capta made a comment that I thought sounded pretty unwelcoming to new members.

Capta said:

"it seems you have come on here completely unprepared, without doing the slightest research on your own."

The tone of that sounded to me like we don't want newbies coming on here asking basic and rudimentary questions and we expect them to read books first and not waste our time.

I think a lot of people are coming here first, to do research on their own. What is wrong with people using this site as the place they come to start their research?


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## Don L

The thing is; why can’t we allow dreamers to dream? Do internets posters REALLY believe they are saving the dreamers from themselves, or just trying to be know it all experts?


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## rbrasi

It's okay to inform people that they don't know what they don't know. 
As an aside, I read Slocum (sailing alone around the world) and IIRC, he went through the straights of Magellan, not Cape Horn. The story of thumbtacks and natives comes to mind.


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## Capt Len

I wish the OP well. He will either learn enough to survive or maybe not.It's his venture. Milktoast adventurers depending on their electronic stuff to get out of a marina may quiver at the risk ,,So? I have been many seasons Alaska BC and the Beaufort before GPS and suspect St of Magellan not much more serious if not taken for granted. Incidentally, I liked the book (Slocum) so much I built the boat


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