# Sail Magazine's Best Boats 2011



## SOUNDBOUNDER (Dec 16, 2008)

Sail Magazine announced their best boats for 2011

Sail Magazine Announces Best Boats of 2011 | BoatingLocal.com

I'm not a big fan of top 10 lists, but thought it was interesting nonetheless.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

The winners:

Most Innovative Systems: Beneteau Sense 50 (beneteauusa.com)
Flagship Multihull: Gunboat 66 (gunboat.com)
Flagship Monohull: Southerly 57RS (northshore.co.uk)
Cruising Multihull: Discovery 50 (discoveryyachts.com)
Cruising Accommodations: Discovery 50 (discoveryyachts.com)
Cruising Monohull Under 50 feet: Presto 30 (ryderboats.com)
Performance, 30 feet and Over: Beneteau First 30 (beneteauusa.com)
Performance, 30 feet and Under: X-Treme 25 (gforceyachts.com)
Small Boat Under 25 feet: K650 (yum-boats.com)
Best Dinghy: Taz (topazsailing.com)
Deck and Cockpit: J/111 (jboats.com)
The Green Award: Hunter 27E (huntermarine.com)

The Presto 30 and the Benetau 30 were posted in the "Interesting Sailboats" thread. I have posted about the Southerlies on the "Bluewater boats" thread. 

These are all great boats and particularly the Northshore company (Southerly) has made a great development, coming from heavy and traditionally designed boats, to producing state of the art sailboats, in what regards design and performance.

The Discovery 50 has a great interior, but I guess that here the choice could be different ( Cruising accommodations to do what? Coastal cruising, Bluewater cruising, Marina and anchorage mostly?).

The next contest would be the European Boat of the year, but this choice is not a lonely magazine choice, but a choice made by almost all European sail magazines, that vote for the best boats in each category. 

Probably the First 30 will be elected in both choices .

I find odd that they had not have considered a category for cruising and another for performance boats, between 33ft and 45ft. This category is the the one that constitutes the large majority of the market and is the one that is more interesting for most people.

Regards

Paulo


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## SOUNDBOUNDER (Dec 16, 2008)

> I find odd that they had not have considered a category for cruising and another for performance boats, between 33ft and 45ft. This category is the the one that constitutes the large majority of the market and is the one that is more interesting for most people.


Excellent point Paulo!


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

PCP said:


> The winners:
> 
> ...
> The Green Award: Hunter 27E (huntermarine.com)


 
I don't want to start another round of Hunter bashing, but I can't fathom _this _boat getting _that _award.

To be clear, *this is the boat that won SAIL Magazine's Green Award*; 










Ironic? (or absurd?)...


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

*Sail*

Just in case I might ever forget why I dropped that subscription years ago...
Ah yes, there it is!


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> I don't want to start another round of Hunter bashing, but I can't fathom _this _boat getting _that _award.
> 
> To be clear, *this is the boat that won SAIL Magazine's Green Award*;
> 
> ...


*This is NOT the boat that won the green award, THIS IS!*

Damn you people can be so ignorant sometimes, it's no wonder I rarely post here anymore


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

eherlihy said:


> I don't want to start another round of Hunter bashing, but I can't fathom _this _boat getting _that _award.
> 
> To be clear, *this is the boat that won SAIL Magazine's Green Award*;
> 
> ...


That is a hard one to figure.... on what grounds is this boat (or operating it) "green"? Maybe it's built of corn and flax resin??


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

That is an ugly boat I mean not the electric one, but the one with a big engine.

I think eMKay is right. The (27) *e* stands for electric.

Another strange thing is that they had chose two boats for the category of 30ft and over performance boats. Both are 30ft boats but one of them is not a performance boat (dual fast boat) but a strictly top racing boat:

Welcome to G-Force Yachts!

Regards

Paulo


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

Faster said:


> That is a hard one to figure.... on what grounds is this boat (or operating it) "green"? Maybe it's built of corn and flax resin??


*This is NOT the boat that won the green award, THIS IS!*

Damn you people can be so ignorant sometimes, it's no wonder I rarely post here anymore


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

PCP said:


> That is an ugly boat
> 
> I know that some could find it beautiful, but why *Green?*
> 
> ...


*This is NOT the boat that won the green award, THIS IS!*

Damn you people can be so ignorant sometimes, it's no wonder I rarely post here anymore


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

eMKay said:


> *This is NOT the boat that won the green award, THIS IS!*
> 
> Damn you people can be so ignorant sometimes, it's no wonder I rarely post here anymore


Thank you for educating me (us?).

I was not aware that Hunter introduced a new model at Annapolis. You have to admit that the name is surprisingly similar to the Hunter 27 Edge (commonly referred to as the Hunter 27E). (Maybe GM will introduce a new Aztek?)

I see that this is an Electric boat. - I get it!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Paulo,

Some of the US rags, for better or worst, seem to not award awards in some categories that you would think they would. What seems to occur, or lack of, is boats no worthy in there opinions, or there are no boats or maybe one in the category. I have not looked at that rag as of yet, might be in the box per say. 

Any way, this is my guess on the why there are no cruiser boats. Cruising World may have a few, depending upon what the judges say about them.

Along with yes, what is so green about the Hunter with the BIG GAZZ GUZZLER motors......LOL.........

Marty


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Along with yes, what is so green about the Hunter with the BIG GAZZ GUZZLER motors......LOL.........
> 
> Marty


It doesn't use GAS, it's an ELECTRIC boat, for the 4th time...


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I install a LOT of land based electronic drives 

Looking at the electric drive in the Hunter i am impressed with quality of components and the install even the battery bank is sized to give a good range and they have a nice solar option so you don't have to go DIY on a brand new boat


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

*Us Idiots - on the 'net...*



eMKay said:


> *This is NOT the boat that won the green award, THIS IS!
> 
> Damn you people can be so ignorant sometimes, it's no wonder I rarely post here anymore
> 
> *


*

Wow! It takes over 800 posts to arrive at that conclusion? 

FWIW, I missed the difference in boats, too. 
OTOH, the "correct" pictured Hunter does not look like much of an improvement! uke

L*


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

McKay, I said it was a GAZZ GUZZLER.........I had an LOL at the end too!

oh yeah, what is so special about it:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher

you need a life dude!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Didn't a catamaran, Lagoon is ringing a bell, have an electric dual drive option a few yrs back? so how new is this Hunter thingy????

It does look typical from the body shape, like a dock mates old 28 something or other. 

Marty


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

blt2ski said:


> McKay, I said it was a GAZZ GUZZLER.........I had an LOL at the end too!
> 
> oh yeah, what is so special about it:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher
> 
> you need a life dude!


Some years ago the development of electric engines for sailboats was a hot subject in Europe. Bavaria was working on it, Benetau also and a Lagoon cat was introduced to the market with an electric drive. It seems that all has fallen in oblivion. Too, expensive, too complicated, the batteries are heavy and the range is limited. It seems that a Diese-Electric makes more sense, but that is expensive, more complicated and only makes sense for bigger boats (over 60ft). On bigger modern yacht that are lots of them that use that system (more power boats than sailboats).

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Paulo,

You are correct on the diesel-electric motor options for bigger boats. The car ferries here on Puget Sound ALL have D-E motors. As do a lot of the trains, and a few of the bus's locally too.

Altho if this Hunter has a better setup than the Lagoon, if that is the cat I am recalling, then things may be looking up for this option. I think it would work well for weekenders/daysailors, not sure about a monthly/world cruiser style boat. IE we are talking true electric, not a hybrid.

marty


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

*This is a little off topic, but something to ponder...*

The thing with electric boats/cars/drills... anything, is that the batteries have a useful lifespan. After which, they become very hazardous waste (wait until we start experiencing cadmium/lithium in our food and water).

Also, the power has to be generated somewhere. Generating power causes waste emissions. Emissions either come out the exhaust of your boat (or car) or from the coal/gas/oil/wood fired power plant, so this technology is not emission free, it just moves where the emissions come from.

Here is a look at where electric energy comes from in the USA;








- Credit Thomas B. Walter - Departments of Geography & Computer Science - Hunter College of the City University of New York [email protected]

Consider the affects that these some of these options have on the environment; 

Nuclear - well let's not go there... We _still_ haven't figured out what to do with this waste.
Hydro - Dams don't create pollution, but they do consume lots of land (for the reservoir) and disrupt the land and water ecosystems.
Solar - Photovoltaic cell manufacturing is not as clean as we would like to believe. There is a reason that most of these plants are in China and India.
Geo-thermal - Great, for folks in Iceland, but how many of these plants are there in the rest of the world?
Wind - People off the coast of MA grousing over the affect on this on the scenery

I am NOT trying to disparage the NEW Hunter 27e. I've seen electric boats, and they are VERY quiet under power. But I'm not sure that building an electric boat is necessarily "green."


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> You are correct on the diesel-electric motor options for bigger boats. The car ferries here on Puget Sound ALL have D-E motors. As do a lot of the trains, and a few of the bus's locally too.
> 
> Altho if this Hunter has a better setup than the Lagoon, if that is the cat I am recalling, then things may be looking up for this option. I think it would work well for weekenders/daysailors, not sure about a monthly/world cruiser style boat. IE we are talking true electric, not a hybrid.


The Lagoon cat was a Diesel-Electric. It used an Onan generator somewhere in a forward compartment (Think Hybrid).

The Hunter is Electric ONLY (A-la Nissan Leaf). To use it you have to charge it.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Thanks for clarification on the Lagoon, did not realize it was a D-E option vs straight E. 

I do agree, that some of these electric options are not as green as one thinks or would assume. I do feel they are worth looking at, and trying to lower the non-green part that one does not see. 

Marty


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## eMKay (Aug 18, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> The thing with electric boats/cars/drills... anything, is that the batteries have a useful lifespan. After which, they become very hazardous waste (wait until we start experiencing cadmium/lithium in our food and water).
> 
> Also, the power has to be generated somewhere. Generating power causes waste emissions. Emissions either come out the exhaust of your boat (or car) or from the coal/gas/oil/wood fired power plant, so this technology is not emission free, it just moves where the emissions come from.
> 
> ...


So you would rather we keep doing what we are doing until we run out of fossil fuels? What happens then? Civilization collapses that's what happens then. I don't know about you but I LIKE civilization and will not let it collapse, so if people continue to ridicule and poke at the electric option (no matter what it is, cars, heat) then we will continue to throw money and lives at the middle east, and throw more carbon in the air. We've already doubled the carbon dioxide level, how far will we have to go before we reach the cliff? The whole point is to reduce our dependence on oil, all MY power comes from Hydro, and a little from wind.

Nuclear is the only option right now together with wind, solar, hydro, and geothermal until we can perfect fusion, then all our problems are over. That graph by the way is very inaccurate.


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## boomvangdc (Oct 28, 2010)

Paulo, totally agree. This list does a great job of highlighting some of the new innovations that were introduced this year, but isn't that relevant for the typical cruiser or racer looking for a new boat. How about a head to head comparison of the Beneteau First 30 and J/111 (not exactly in the same league, but as the two new under-40 performance boats introduced this year, it would be interesting to compare the choices the two manufacturers made.) There are in-depth reviews of both on my website - nasailor.com

Also agree regarding your take on cruising accommodations. The Discovery 50 owners cabin was awesome, almost obscene in its space. But there were other large cats at the Annapolis Boat Show that took a totally different approach to accommodations based on intended usage, like the Atlantic 57 (see nasailor.com/2010/10/09/annapolis-boat-show-day-3/), which is intended for heavy-duty offshore cruising. Would be nice to see a deeper comparison of these type of items.

Beth



PCP said:


> The winners:
> 
> Most Innovative Systems: Beneteau Sense 50 (beneteauusa.com)
> Flagship Multihull: Gunboat 66 (gunboat.com)
> ...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Most all-electric vehicles are far less green than the manufacturers would like us to believe. They merely shift where the pollution occurs. Also, this doesn't generally take into account the pollution incurred during the manufacturing process of toxic, heavy-metal based components, like the batteries, which have a finite lifespan and are very expensive to replace. 

BTW, this is also one reason I don't think hybrid vehicles, like the Prius, are all that great an idea, since they have many of the same externalities as all-electric vehicles.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> Some of the US rags, for better or worst, seem to not award awards in some categories that you would think they would. What seems to occur, or lack of, is boats* no worthy in there opinions*, or there are no boats or maybe one in the category. I have not looked at that rag as of yet, might be in the box per say.
> 
> ...


Marty,
*Not worthy* ...take a look at the European boat of the year nominations:

For this year European boat of the year (2011) were nominated 20 boats in four categories: Performance cruisers, Family cruisers, Luxury Cruisers and Special Yachts:

The performance cruisers are: First 30; Dehler 32; JPK 1010; Azuree 40; Elan 350.

The Family cruisers are: Bavaria 45; Beneteau 58; Comet 26; Hanse 445; Jeanneau 409.

The Luxury Cruisers are: Contest 57Cs; Nordship 360DS; Sirius 35DS; Sunbeam 42.1; Xc 38.

As you can see this is a good year with lots of interesting boats and most of them are between 33ft and 45ft and that's logical because these are the boats that raise more interest among the public and on the market.

Not worthy? Come on&#8230;how can they chose as performance boat of the year a boat like the X-Treme 25, that is an interesting boat, but it is also clearly a racing boat? Those should be under a special category like racing boats, or as they are classified in the European Contest, as Special Yachts.

I maintain that it is very odd that on the Sail's Magazine best boats there was not any between 33ft and 45ft. These are the sailboats that raise more interest among their readers and on the market and, obviously, there were some great sailboats of that size introduced this year to the market.

Regards

Paulo


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Sorry, Emckay.... (though we did get the correction the first time!).. but we could be forgiven for thinking Hunter 27e(dge)


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

boomvangdc said:


> Paulo, totally agree. This list does a great job of highlighting some of the new innovations that were introduced this year, but isn't that relevant for the typical cruiser or racer looking for a new boat. How about a head to head comparison of the Beneteau First 30 and J/111 (not exactly in the same league, but as the two new under-40 performance boats introduced this year, it would be interesting to compare the choices the two manufacturers made.) There are in-depth reviews of both on my website - nasailor.com


Beth,
You are right, the First 30 and the J/111 are both great boats but they are not on the same league. I would love to see a comparison between the J/111 and two other European nominated boats, the M34 and the Knierim P33. These are on the same league. I don't know why the J/111 was not nominated, but the J/95 was and that one is a good match for the First 30.

The other American boat nominated for the Special yachts Category is the
Corsair 750 Dash.

Take a look:

BATEAUX ARCHAMBAULT

http://www.m34.eu/

http://www.knierim-yachtbau.de/html/de/galerie/KnierimP33/index.html

Regards

Paulo

PS- Great site Beth 
http://nasailor.com/


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

eMKay said:


> So you would rather we keep doing what we are doing until we run out of fossil fuels? What happens then? Civilization collapses that's what happens then. I don't know about you but I LIKE civilization and will not let it collapse, so if people continue to ridicule and poke at the electric option (no matter what it is, cars, heat) then we will continue to throw money and lives at the middle east, and throw more carbon in the air. We've already doubled the carbon dioxide level, how far will we have to go before we reach the cliff? The whole point is to reduce our dependence on oil, all MY power comes from Hydro, and a little from wind.
> 
> Nuclear is the only option right now together with wind, solar, hydro, and geothermal until we can perfect fusion, then all our problems are over. That graph by the way is very inaccurate.


Dude,

That's not what I said. You need to take a deep breath, and calm down.

Because you seem to have missed it, my point; echoed by SailingDog, is that the "Green" label is not as Green as we are being led to believe.

If you have a more accurate graph to illustrate the US energy usage - great!

You may want to share your research with Thomas B. Walter, Departments of Geography & Computer Science, Hunter College of the City University of New York, 695 Park Avenue, New York, NY 10065, [email protected]. (The graph above is his - I'll edit to give him credit)

[EDIT] - BTW I looked at your Hunter production thread. Thank you for bringing us along.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Paulo,

No issues with your list of new boats. The "ISSUE" if you will is "many" of the boats on your list have not been shown or sold as of yet to the NA(north american) market! Some will not make it here until sailed here, and sold 2nd hand. Hence why "Sail" magazine will claim, or SW/CW will claim there are no boats in the catagory. 

One would have to look at the X34 as an example, a BOTY for Yacht World in 08?!?! and an 09 competitor for CW/SW. Might be 07 and 08. Hopefully you get my drift. The sunfast 3200 was also the same way, intro'd in europe in the fall of 07 or there abouts, and not intro'd to the MAIN boat shows here untill the fall of 08. 

Some of those boats may be intro'd next year to the US market. We still seem to be a bit.....no make that WAY backwards, behind the 8-ball when it comes to things like BOTY boats. Too many think one needs an old shoe to sail the ocean blue. When out of the most popular boat to do the ARC, need to go downstairs to look at the top 5, Beneteau, Swan, Oyster, HR then Jeanneau. 2 of those 5 get all kinds of "they can not go off shore" from NA sailors.

Marty


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> No issues with your list of new boats. The "ISSUE" if you will is "many" of the boats on *your list* have not been shown or sold as of yet to the NA(north american) market! Some will not make it here until sailed here, and sold 2nd hand. Hence why "Sail" magazine will claim, or SW/CW will claim there are no boats in the catagory.


Not my list Marty, the ones that makes that list and vote for the boats are these European Sail Magazines:

Yacht - Germany, Badnyt - Denmark, Batnytt - Sweden, Fare Vela - Italy, Seilas - Norway, Swissboat Yachting - Switzerland, Voile Magazine - France, Waterkampioen - Netherlands, Yacht Revue - Austria, Yachting World - England and Yate - Spain.

I understand what you mean but I am pretty sure that the X-treme 30 (perfomance boat of the year) is not available on the American market (it is from Netherlands) and it is a 2009/2010 project. It seems to be a great racer, but I bet, incredibly expensive and I don't know if the boat is only a project or if they have already built a prototype. Take a look:

Welcome to G-Force Yachts!

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Paulo,

The boats on your" list were only ment to be the ones you listed that were probably listed by the rags you mentioned. Any way, the X boat you mention, need to look it up, will probably not get sold here, unless 2nd hand. The Figaro's, have NEVER to my knowledge been offered by B-USA. You need to go to the European market websites to get info. I am sure the ~10-20K dollar/euro to ship across the pond is an issue with these boats. Probably why Jeanneau is now building at the SC plant where Beneteau has been building. This will be good, as both companies have some 30, 33 and smaller yet boats that would sell well over here frankly, "IF" they were built over here to be more cost effective with Catalina and Hunter. 

I just got the rag in the mail, will go read it. From the cover tho, "Sail" seems to be saying "innovative BOTY" list. So with that in mind, I could also see where the Hunter E(lectric) would make the list, where as normally, I doubt it would get the time of day in a BOTY listing. If y guess not reading the article, but front cover only, I can see where some are against the list put out by Sail. While I may also not like the list, I need to read the article, then in the end, I may agree with the list, but I may not agree with the how they went about it or equal.

Joys of editorial content from different rags if you will! if nothing else, makes for good arguments and disCUSSions on sailing forums! LOL
marty


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## COOL (Dec 1, 2009)

blt2ski said:


> I do agree, that some of these electric options are not as green as one thinks or would assume. I do feel they are worth looking at, and trying to lower the non-green part that one does not see.


I realise this discussion is outside the original topic.
but as a recent e propulsion convert I have to respond.

The reality is that the true environmental costs of 
the products or energy we use are rarely fully tallied.
I am certain that if you truly accounted for the
emissions and energy cost of a gallon of fossil fuel,
from extracting it from the earth, refining it, pumping
it into your fuel tank, till finally exhausting it out the
tail pipe, I think you would find an electric propulsion 
system is ultimately greener. Though certainly not
100% Green.
On the use side, after the solar panels and batteries 
are made and installed, it is possible to have a completely
fossil fuel free boat. With solar, wind generation, and 
motor regen I could have my system completely off 
the grid. And the batteries I use are 100% recyclable.
The technology for a functional e propulsion system
is here now, and major improvements needed to bring
it to the mainstream will flourish the next time there
is a major spike in fuel costs.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

sailingdog said:


> Most all-electric vehicles are far less green than the manufacturers would like us to believe. They merely shift where the pollution occurs. Also, this doesn't generally take into account the pollution incurred during the manufacturing process of toxic, heavy-metal based components, like the batteries, which have a finite lifespan and are very expensive to replace.
> 
> BTW, this is also one reason I don't think hybrid vehicles, like the Prius, are all that great an idea, since they have many of the same externalities as all-electric vehicles.


Actually it's a lot more nuanced than that.

As I understand it the idea behind the Hunter is that its batteries would/could be recharged by solar panels. Those batteries provide enough juice to get out the channel to where you want to sail and enough juice to get you home if the wind dies. That's how most weekend/day sailors use their diesels. So for that kind of sailor and this size boat this setup makes sense and I admire Hunter for thinking outside the box.

The Department of Energy (DOE) is actually looking at an increase in electric cars as a good thing. It takes up to six hours to bring a power plant up or down, and grid operators are always trying to stay ahead of demand so a lot of power literally ends up being dumped to ground. The DOE has proposed that smart vehicle chargers could be designed to charge during times when the grid typically needs to dump energy. Essentially the grid would be using vehicles to store energy rather than waste it (the details get complicated).

Heavy metals used in batteries ARE an issue as are the fact that there are few sources of those materials. But realistically today's Lithium Ion batteries represent an interim step that will be replaced by new technologies. And let's not forget waste products from the gas and oil industries are a huge issue. Can you spell BP?

The question is not whether current technologies will solve all our problems, but rather do they solve part of the problem and/or can they be one part of a larger solution.

As usual YMMV, and the value of this post is exactly what you paid for it.

Jim

Disclaimer: this post written by the flickering light of a whale oil lamp


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

JimMcGee said:


> ....
> 
> As I understand it the idea behind the Hunter is that its batteries would/could be recharged by solar panels. Those batteries provide enough juice to get out the channel to where you want to sail and enough juice to get you home if the wind dies. That's how most weekend/day sailors use their diesels. So for that kind of sailor and this size boat this setup makes sense and I admire Hunter for thinking outside the box.
> 
> ...


This really makes not much sense in what regards pollution and consumption. you are talking of a user that, with that kind of limited use of an engine, wastes what? 30L of Diesel in a year?

I am interested in not wasting and in making as little pollution as I can, but on a typical season I travel 2 or 3000 miles and waste about 350L a year (with a small diesel engine). I want a to waste as little as possible and I had looked at what the Electric and Diesel-electric engines has to offer, and it is just not a viable option for a small cruising sailboat (if for cruising we mean that the boat really cruises). It only is suitable for the use that you have described and that is a very limited use.

To waste and to pollute less it would be better to invest in a sailboat that can really sail with the weakest of winds and that is so light and drags so little water that can use a much smaller engine than an heavier typical cruiser boat. That would really diminish the need of the engine and limit the pollution.

Regards

Paulo


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Another real issue with all electric boats is the fact that they're serious safety risk in heavier weather. When the batteries go dead, there is no easy way to re-fuel/recharge the system. With a diesel or gasoline engine, adding more fuel to the tank will get you up and running fairly quickly.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

PCP said:


> This really makes not much sense in what regards pollution and consumption. you are talking of a user that, with that kind of limited use of an engine, wastes what? 30L of Diesel in a year?
> 
> Paulo


Paulo, That description of a target user came from a sales guy in the Hunter booth not me - though I think it probably describes a lot of day sailors and weekenders and this might be a good setup for that sailor.

I agree with you and SailingDog that there are issues with this setup for any kind of long distance cruising.

We brought a boat up the Chesapeake Bay a few years ago in July. Not a puff of air, we motored for 10 hours a day. You couldn't do that with this setup.

Every design decision on a sailboat is a compromise. This might work for some folks and the designs will improve with time.

Jim


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

JimMcGee said:


> ..
> .... This might work for some folks and the designs will improve with time.
> 
> Jim


Jim, I do care and I hope (and think) you are right. I guess that I am still frustrated about the reality versus the big noise they had made in Europe about electric engines and diesel engines for sailboats. I had hoped for more substance (and less noise). The big problem is the limitations of batteries. They are the weak point of all those solutions and it is there that it is necessary a really scientific breakthrough. I hope it will come soon.

Regards

Paulo


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## COOL (Dec 1, 2009)

sailingdog said:


> Another real issue with all electric boats is the fact that they're serious safety risk in heavier weather.


In heavy air, you should be sailing not powering.
If a ICE powered boat runs out of fuel in the
middle of the ocean, they can not make more fuel.
An all electric boat could, eventually, recharge its
battery banks with solar panels, wind generation,
and regen from the motor driven by the prop.
A sailboat is already an excellent hybrid,
a sailboat with electric propulsion can be better.


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## COOL (Dec 1, 2009)

PCP said:


> This really makes not much sense in what regards pollution and consumption.


For a daysailer that mainly uses their auxiliary power
for maneuvering in and out of the slip, which I believe
accounts for a very significant percentage of the
boat owning population, an electric propulsion system
has many advantages over a diesel or gas engine.
You do not have to start or warm up an e motor.
If you need thrust you put it in gear, take it out
gear and the motor is off, no idling. There is nothing
more annoying than trying to talk over a rattling
noisy diesel while trying to maneuver.
My electric motor has been perfect for getting 
in and out of the slip, speed control is much better
at slow speed because you can have full torque
at any RPM, you do not have to rev the motor up
to keep it running.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

COOL said:


> For a daysailer that mainly uses their auxiliary power
> for maneuvering in and out of the slip, which I believe
> accounts for a very significant percentage of the
> boat owning population, an electric propulsion system
> ...


I am not contesting that. What I am saying is that kind of sailing is the one that wastes less full anyway. I think that for that situation an electric engine will do, but for little else. Not suitable for real for cruising.

Regards

Paulo


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## COOL (Dec 1, 2009)

PCP said:


> Not suitable for real for cruising.


Perhaps not suitable for the way the 'main stream' cruises.
Many people have been able to do real cruising with no
motor at all. Today many cruisers are really motor sailors.
An all electric propulsion motor is not ideal for powering
for days on end, but it could supply a little thrust for
motorsailing through a calm. You would not have the
ability to power upwind in strong winds and big seas,
but that is why you have sails and a boat that is
capable of sailing in light or heavy air.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Green is hard to define like the 6000 sqft green single family home 

I use to do a LOT of bicycle commuting with the record being 18 months through two long island winters and only using a car 5 days for signal person trips 

Now this would seem very GREEN but my current round trip is 28 miles and the extra food i use to require to make the required energy cost a bit more than the 3 dollar gallon of gas and the medical bills from car whacks are substantial also and you talking about 3 hours Vs 40 minutes of your life everyday


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tommays said:


> ..
> I use to do a LOT of bicycle commuting with the record being 18 months through two long island winters and only using a car 5 days for signal person trips
> 
> .. you talking about 3 hours Vs 40 minutes of your life everyday


Now, that is one thing that works well with an electric engine. In China there are millions of them. they are inexpensive, fast and without maintenance. Maybe you can win some hours a day

Electric Bicycles | Ebikes | E-Bikes | China

Regards

Paulo


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

PCP said:


> Jim, I do care and I hope (and think) you are right. I guess that I am still frustrated about the reality versus the big noise they had made in Europe about electric engines and diesel engines for sailboats. I had hoped for more substance (and less noise). The big problem is the limitations of batteries. They are the weak point of all those solutions and it is there that it is necessary a really scientific breakthrough. I hope it will come soon.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I know what you mean. There are some interesting technologies on the horizon but it's hard to say when you'll see them. Super Caps are really interesting.

Google supercapacitor for some interesting geek reading. There's some cool research into replacing batteries with supercaps, or creating a hybrid battery/supercap.

Jim


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