# Davits - Kato or Garhauer?



## GrahamO (Apr 4, 2012)

It took a while to sort out apples and apples but it looks like I can get a complete set of davits from Garhauer for around $1,400 with all the fixings, a stabilizer and 6:1 cammed lines. The same equipment package from Kato is about $2,800. The Kato stuff looks awesome and they work hard at making it boat-specific but that is one hell of a price difference to have to justify and I am pretty happy with my Garhauer stuff to date, although my experience is limited.

Any direct experience or input would be welcomed.

Thanks,

Graham


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I second your finds regarding research, and will also be looking forward to feedback.

My experience with Garhauer to date doesn't include davits, but all the other gear I've used from them is solid, well built and a tad heavy. Warranty and customer service there are top notch too.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Kato is top of the line stuff, right here in Annapolis too. In fact, I believe the owner, mentioned to me he designed the spars for our Tartan.

We have Garhauer Davits, and I have no complaints, they also make high quality stuff, and are consistently cheaper than others, I don't know how they do it. Not to make you sick but about 6 years ago I bought mine form them at a boat show price of $600!

Get the double crossbar for more rigidity. Often Garhauer stuff looks somewhat clunky when compared to others, but not their davit IMO. I also wished I had gone with 1 1/8" tube not 1". 

Cant go wrong with either, just keep in mind, its just a davit  

I can post pics if you would like


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

My Garhauer davits work just fine.


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## Seaduction (Oct 24, 2011)

I'm not familiar with Garhauer operation, but my Kato davits swivel in to the stern (after removing the spreader bar) when I'm not carrying the dinghy. Its a feature that I like. They also came with pushpit supports that add bracing for the added weight on the stern pushpit.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

I came across a "moonlighting" pipefitter who welcomed the work for a very nice price. He whipped up some beautiful custom davits for me in his garage made from 2&1/2" diameter stainless steel pipe. Your opportunity may depend upon the industry in your area. I was in a paper mill area, but pipefitters are common to many factories. I added the Gahauer blocks and line and ended up with the best for less.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

We have Kato davits, which I can say are very high quality. Their stainless steel ratchet straps to secure the boat underway are also substantial and am not aware if Garhauer has something similar. Kato, however, is certainly expensive by comparison. They seem to regularly get their price, so there must be some additional value. Maybe not as much as they charge for, I don't know. Ours came on the boat, we didn't shop them.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Both are good davits and companies. 

We have Garhauer Davits and love them. We purchased and installed them ourselves 5 years ago for about $1000 ( at the boat show you can dicker with them) and we bought the 1.25 inch stainless steel ones. They are very robust and come with 6:1 bocks standard ( important to have), have large backing plates, cam cleats as well as horn cleats. They are very well made. I am assuming you are comparing to the Kato Island series.

Additionally we also have the Garhauer radar pole with detachable engine hoist which is also a robust well made piece of equipment. 

I installed Garjauer clutches to replace my only Shaefer ones and also am very pleased with them.

I have found Garhauer to have superior customer service and make good products. A double win in todays age.


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## windward54 (Apr 12, 2000)

Add me to the list that have Garhauer Davits. The davits are solid and have worked well. And I like having the 6:1 blocks on both arms. I also opted for the additional rail supports. Garhauer Marine even fabricated a flag pole mount that went on the outer support bar for me at no cost. 

I did buy the Kato ratchet straps to use to hold the dinghy in place while under way. At the time, I couldn't find anything else that worked as well.


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## war depart (Jul 19, 2013)

I had kato put a set of davits and a wind gen pole on my crealock 37 and have been very happy for over 14 years. good quality and they did a good job of modifying stern pulpit to take the weight.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Check out the davits from Ocean Marine Systems in Richmond, B.C. Canada.

My boat came with a set - I sold them because I didn't want davits but they were extremely well made.

Ocean Marine Systems - Davits, Rails, Lifts, and Platforms.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SloopJonB said:


> Check out the davits from Ocean Marine Systems in Richmond, B.C. Canada.
> 
> My boat came with a set - I sold them because I didn't want davits but they were extremely well made.
> 
> Ocean Marine Systems - Davits, Rails, Lifts, and Platforms.


Yikes $2800 for transom mounted one and not 6:1 blocks even. Good quality though.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I had the SD30's which would be good for most sailboat dinghys - each arm is tested to 400 Lbs or so. Mine had an 8' glass dinghy on them and it put no strain on them at all. Very easy to hoist as well. A 10' or even 12' would have been no problem, other than sticking out an absurd amount on each side. 

Those expensive ones would probably handle a big Whaler with a 25 horse or even more.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

SloopJonB said:


> A 10' or even 12' would have been no problem, other than sticking out an absurd amount on each side.


So you are saying my 15 foot Lyman runabout (300 pounds w/o the 25 horse outboard) would look absurd on my 12'3" beam boat?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Well, if it has a 12' 3" transom, maybe not so much.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

GrahamO said:


> It took a while to sort out apples and apples but it looks like I can get a complete set of davits from Garhauer for around $1,400 with all the fixings, a stabilizer and 6:1 cammed lines. The same equipment package from Kato is about $2,800. The Kato stuff looks awesome and they work hard at making it boat-specific but that is one hell of a price difference to have to justify and I am pretty happy with my Garhauer stuff to date, although my experience is limited.
> 
> Any direct experience or input would be welcomed.
> 
> ...


Hey Graham,

I have the Kato and have had them on the last two boats. Certainly well made and no issues. I also really like Gar stuff too. Many of the blocks on my boat are made by them and it has held together well.

So my answer is: If they were the same quality, I would be hard pressed to drop an extra grand into Kato... though I did. I think the key is not so much the davits, but good backing plates and extra supports (esp if using your stern rail for some structural support). We reinforced ours.

Good luck.

Brian


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

I still think that there is an opportunity to get a better set of custom davits made for your boat for a better price than something off the shelf. In the first photo above you can see the 2&1/2" SS pipe davits, braced and with 1/2" base & back up plates. Though it's hard to see in the second photo, these davits are supported by shrouds from their distal ends and they support a solar panel and boarding ladder too. I had these fabricated in a pipefitters garage for $500 bucks plus the cost of the line and the Garhauer blocks. Admittedly, there is a convenience to buying something "off the shelf", but it will not be made to fit specifically best for your boat. My davits are also not as bright and shiny, but they are very strong.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Garhauer will practice tically customize anything you want


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

T37Chef said:


> Garhauer will practice tically customize anything you want


The backing plates and rail mounts are also larger than Kato.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

GrahamO said:


> It took a while to sort out apples and apples but it looks like I can get a complete set of davits from Garhauer for around $1,400 with all the fixings, a stabilizer and 6:1 cammed lines. The same equipment package from Kato is about $2,800. The Kato stuff looks awesome and they work hard at making it boat-specific but that is one hell of a price difference to have to justify and I am pretty happy with my Garhauer stuff to date, although my experience is limited.
> 
> Any direct experience or input would be welcomed.
> 
> ...


OK, someone's gotta ask, may as well be me... 

Ted Hood's Little Harbor/Bristol 38.8 is one of the most beautiful, perfectly proportioned boats of her size ever drawn...

Are you really sure you want to stick a pair of davits on such a beauty?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> OK, someone's gotta ask, may as well be me...
> 
> Ted Hood's Little Harbor/Bristol 38.8 is one of the most beautiful, perfectly proportioned boats of her size ever drawn...
> 
> Are you really sure you want to stick a pair of davits on such a beauty?


Wow,

You caught me by suprise I thought you might include the dodger and radar on the backstay to as it takes away from the beautiful lines too.

A boat like that shouldn't be adorned with anything.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> Wow,
> 
> You caught me by suprise I thought you might include the dodger and radar on the backstay to as it takes away from the beautiful lines too.
> 
> A boat like that shouldn't be adorned with anything.


Nah, Ted Hood understood a well-designed dodger doesn't necessarily detract from the looks of a boat, perhaps the reason he included one in his drawings for the original 38.8 brochure...










Hanging a tender off such a perfect transom, however, is taking 'adornment'' to a whole 'nuther level... 

As Bob Perry said about this photo posted awhile back over on Cruising Anarchy:



> That is not what I had in mind back in 1973.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Yes quite a shame to ruin the aesthetic lines drawn, that's why we have museums and pictures. I've seen many beautiful Hinkleys and Morris adorned with self steering vanes, davits radar poles, etc.

I guess lots of people use their boats and adorn them with creature comforts and safety devices to make them more user friendly and really not worry about being photoshoot for magazines.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> Yes quite a shame to ruin the aesthetic lines drawn, that's why we have museums and pictures. I've seen *many beautiful Hinkleys and Morris *adorned with self steering vanes, davits radar poles, etc.
> 
> I guess lots of people use their boats and adorn them with creature comforts and safety devices to make them more user friendly and really not worry about being photoshoot for magazines.


_Many_ Hinckleys and Morris cruising boats in that size range with davits? Really? Well, that's not been my observation...

If the listings on Yachtworld are any guide, dinghy davits on such boats would appear to be far from common. Of the 46 Hinckleys between 35 and 43 feet listed, only ONE 43 sports davits... Of all the Morris cruisers up to 48 feet listed, NONE features davits... Same with the 6 Bristol 38.8s currently listed, so I think it's fair to say that this is not the type of boat that one _typically_ sees equipped with davits...

Hey, I'm just asking Graham the question, is all... I have no idea how he plans to use his boat, what sort of dinghy he's using, and so on... I simply happen to think the utility of dinghy davits on boats of that size might be somewhat overrated, but that's just me... I certainly don't fel they rise to the level of being a "safety device". The Bristol 38.8 has one of the largest expanses of foredeck and coachroof of any boat in her size range, and will easily accommodate a tender brought aboard, which with a 2:1 spinnaker halyard or similar, isn't all that much more work than securing a dink on davits... He's gonna want to do that when sailing, or motoring, in much of anything beyond flat water, anyway...

If Graham really feels the _need_ for davits, then of course he should go for it... I'd simply suggest that before he commits to doing so, he might try configuring a temporary setup to hoist his tender, and judge the way it looks, the effect it might have on the trim of the boat, and so on... Perhaps he's already done so, and is comfortable with all that... I'm simply suggesting, with a boat as beautiful as his, that he gives the aesthetics and effect of it all some serious consideration...

Don't take my word for it, take Maine Sail's:



> Save yourself the headache and use your spare halyard to raise the dink onto the foredeck!
> 
> P.S. - Davits are over rated and I own them! The best use for davits is a good place to mount a solar panel!!
> 
> dinghy davits - Page 2 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

Maybe the addition of davits depends on the way you use your boat. I thought that I might find a photo of my dinghy hanging on the davits behind my 41' "Chlorox bottle" design, but I coundn't find one. 'probably because I used the dinghy to take my camera far enough away from my boat for the shot.



We use our dinghy for grocery shopping, breakfast out, snorkeling, trips to the laudromat and much more. I raise my dinghy frequently to keep the bottom clean and to keep the ducks from sitting on it and leaving a mess. If you're a coastal cruiser and living aboard a highly functional craft for your anchoring out and liveaboard needs; then, there's no better option than davits. Pretty is nice, but function rules,- evidenced by my solar panel, manual windlass, wind generator, kayaks, davits, radar, enclosed bimini, Propane on deck, etc. We've all seen the new "pretty" that even omits life-lines for a higher price.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

I currently carry a borrowed dinghy on my bow, when I carry a dinghy at all. 

Then again - a 'real' dinghy (RIB) used for shore trips/stocking etc when cruising.. is going to weigh in at well over a hundred pounds (My previous RIB was 135).

Hauling that up with a spin halyard is just not doable by most admirals (sorry gals), and I FIRMLY believe that everything on board should be doable by anyone on board (except technical stuff, perhaps). 

The dinghy we are looking at, a Livingston 10 foot (hard dinghy) weighs in a 210. Frankly I need the 6:1 to pull it up. 
Running a halyard at 6:1, not going to happen.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

CaptainForce said:


> Maybe the addition of davits depends on the way you use your boat. I thought that I might find a photo of my dinghy hanging on the davits behind my 41' "Chlorox bottle" design, but I coundn't find one. 'probably because I used the dinghy to take my camera far enough away from my boat for the shot.
> 
> 
> 
> We use our dinghy for grocery shopping, breakfast out, snorkeling, trips to the laudromat and much more. I raise my dinghy frequently to keep the bottom clean and to keep the ducks from sitting on it and leaving a mess. If you're a coastal cruiser and living aboard a highly functional craft for your anchoring out and liveaboard needs; then, there's no better option than davits. Pretty is nice, but function rules,- evidenced by my solar panel, manual windlass, wind generator, kayaks, davits, radar, enclosed bimini, Propane on deck, etc. We've all seen the new "pretty" that even omits life-lines for a higher price.


That is exactly how I feel. You took the words out of my mouth.

We raise our tender because it keeps the growth off. Its a royal pain to keep hauling off the engine and finding some place to flip it over and scrape it.

Jon, I also disagree with your statement that it needs to be flat water (or almost). I have had mine out in 15 foot seas, and regularly in smaller seas. Not ideal, but fine. We hauled the tender up on Dad's boat and on our 380 and 320 when making long runs. It was a real pita. Another problem is that many boats do not have good tie-downs to secure a RIB on deck. I agree that is the best way for long, open water passages though.

The issue with you and Main is not the davits per se, it is your transom. On my boat, I can hook up the davits easily, crawl off on my sugar scoop, and raise it up. Easy cheesy and quick. You and Main and other swept backs require more maneuvering and man-handling so davits are not as convenient for you. I can see where you might opt to raise it via a halyard instead. However, I still suspect davits would be more convenient and you would end up with it out of the water more and towing it less. We almost never tow our tender anymore. I am just assuming that you do more than I based upon observations of others without davits.

Of course, Graham has the same transom as you and Main. My suggestion to him would be if it is more convenient to hoist the tender up via davits, get them... especially if he is going to be cruising. For cruising, I put davits (or a solar arch which can double as davits) really high on my list. They are one of the most highly used pieces of equipment I own.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

chucklesR said:


> I currently carry a borrowed dinghy on my bow, when I carry a dinghy at all.
> 
> Then again - a 'real' dinghy (RIB) used for shore trips/stocking etc when cruising.. is going to weigh in at well over a hundred pounds (My previous RIB was 135).
> 
> ...


Yep. And that does not even include the engine which can easily hit close to 100 lbs. And how are you going to manhandle that onto a mount without davits or at least a engine davit?

Like I said above, it is a pretty critical piece of equipment for us.

Brian


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

chucklesR said:


> ..............................Running a halyard at 6:1, not going to happen.


Couldn't you place a 6:1 block and tackle on the end of your halyard? Also, why such a heavy dinghy? We use the 115lb Caribe 9L with a big payload opportunity.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

JonEisberg said:


> _Many_ Hinckleys and Morris cruising boats in that size range with davits? Really? Well, that's not been my observation...
> 
> If the listings on Yachtworld are any guide, dinghy davits on such boats would appear to be far from common. Of the 46 Hinckleys between 35 and 43 feet listed, only ONE 43 sports davits... Of all the Morris cruisers up to 48 feet listed, NONE features davits... Same with the 6 Bristol 38.8s currently listed, so I think it's fair to say that this is not the type of boat that one _typically_ sees equipped with davits...
> 
> ...





> Yes quite a shame to ruin the aesthetic lines drawn, that's why we have museums and pictures. I've seen many beautiful Hinkleys and Morris adorned with *self steering vanes, davits radar poles, etc.*
> I guess lots of people use their boats and adorn them with *creature comforts *and safety devices to make them more user friendly and really not worry about being photoshoot for magazines -chef2sail


Jon my friend, you are taking what I wrote and twisting it out of context. Surprising for someone so good reading the Kings English. Are you just doing this to argue with me.

In my quote phrase I said *I've seen many beautiful Hinkleys and Morris adorned with self steering vanes, davits radar poles, etc. I never said the majority of them had davits. I said their were numerous items people have attached (adorned) the boats with for creature comforts and safety. I never said safety by itself either so I don't know why you make that the issue, The safety referred to the radar not the davits

A very quick search of YW like you did shows quite a few Bristol's with davits, radar pole, steering etc.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rrency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1572&url=

View Boat Photos - YachtWorld.com

1988 Bristol Yachts Bristol 43.3 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

View Boat Photos - YachtWorld.com

Obviously the OP has decided he wanted to put davits for whatever reason on his Egg Harbour/ Bristol 38.8, as is his choice. I am sure he is smart enough and sailor enough to understand what it will do to his aesthetics and wasn't really looking for that opinion.,..in fact he was looking for a choice between two specific davits. He has that right of course and maybe has looked into detachable davits. To even bring it up and suggest he is ruining the aesthetic lines of his boat is rude IMHO, no m,atter how eloquently you couched it, and is a drift to the thread.

We actually are looking hard at Bristols/ Little Harbors of similar length and greater for our last boat. We love their lines, sailing characteristics, and their workmanship. I guarantee you that when we purchase it we will adorn it with a radar pole and davits if it doesn't have them already, because that's how we sail.

Many of us have decided to put davits on our boats for reasons of comfort, ease of use of the dinghy in the conditions we most sail in where we sail the most. We also have the option of putting the dinghy on the foredeck as you mentioned. That decision obviously was already made by Graham as HE knows how and why he really wants davits in the first place.*


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Can we not make this a "I can find more ad's on ..." than you can argument. 
It's a comparison of davits, not a argument on whether you should have them or not.


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## steve77 (Aug 5, 2010)

chucklesR said:


> Can we not make this a "I can find more ad's on ..." than you can argument.
> It's a comparison of davits, not a argument on whether you should have them or not.


I for one do plan to install davits and I've narrowed the choice to these two brands. So any and all comments on their respective advantages/disadvantages is helpful. I believe Kato uses 316 steel while Garhauer doesn't, but I'm not sure how important that is. Kato davits also fold in which would be nice, but again, I'm not really sure how important that would be.

I'm leaning toward Garhauer because of price and everyone who has them seems very happy with them.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Folding is useful depending on your marina/docking situation as well as when on the hard - some marina's will charge the extra footage length your davits extend into (in my experience they all will). 

as to 316/304 - all the stuff I've gotten from Garhauer was 316. I can't imagine the davit's are not, but the web site doesn't say.
I'd buy direct from them - MauriPro and others that re-sell them tack on 2-300 bucks for no added value.


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## GrahamO (Apr 4, 2012)

Wow! this thread has livened up in my absence (I had a damned heart attack but - miracles of modern medicine - three days in hospital, one stent and I am right as rain - apart from a sore groin-. The rest of my plumbing is apparently in "perfect condition").

Anyway - back to the thread... Yes, she is a VERY pretty boat (thanks ) but, for me at least, a boat is primarily a tool. It is far more important to me that she is fit-for-purpose. We are heading for the Bahamas this winter and, as others have explained eloquently in this thread, a set of davits are an essential piece of gear for island hopping. The dink will go on deck for passages but I want the convenience of getting my 'car' out of the 'garage' quickly and easily when we are 'hanging out'. Given my recent experience, the easier the better. That also explains the bare teak and I'm sure the deck clut is only going to increase......

Different people use their boats differently. That variety is part of the delight of sailing.

Graham



JonEisberg said:


> OK, someone's gotta ask, may as well be me...
> 
> Ted Hood's Little Harbor/Bristol 38.8 is one of the most beautiful, perfectly proportioned boats of her size ever drawn...
> 
> Are you really sure you want to stick a pair of davits on such a beauty?


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## GrahamO (Apr 4, 2012)

Thanks for all the input by the way. I have not seen a good reason not to go Garhauer yet so I think that is my plan.

Graham


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Graham and all,

If you want me to shoot a pic or two of the davits and what I did and how I reinforced them, let me know. I can post them here. Again, they are Kato.

If I could go back and do it all over again, I would not get either. I would have a custom arch built that could also accomodate davits and solar and whatever else. Another positive of doing the custom arch is you can get the tender higher off the water and it can really serve multiple purposes. Unfortunately, I ordered my davits before I thought about the arch... oh well, just money.

My arch, custom built 2 inch aluminum, cost me $3750. That was high at the time. I suspect you could get one built for even less now??? THat is not much more than the cost of Kato.

I can shoot a pic of that for you too if you want.

Brian

Edit:

Found an old pic showing davits and arch. Like I said, going back, I would just get the arch and have it fabricated to do both.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

GrahamO said:


> Wow! this thread has livened up in my absence (I had a damned heart attack but - miracles of modern medicine - three days in hospital, one stent and I am right as rain - apart from a sore groin-. The rest of my plumbing is apparently in "perfect condition").
> 
> Anyway - back to the thread... Yes, she is a VERY pretty boat (thanks ) but, for me at least, a boat is primarily a tool. It is far more important to me that she is fit-for-purpose. We are heading for the Bahamas this winter and, as others have explained eloquently in this thread, a set of davits are an essential piece of gear for island hopping. The dink will go on deck for passages but I want the convenience of getting my 'car' out of the 'garage' quickly and easily when we are 'hanging out'. Given my recent experience, the easier the better. That also explains the bare teak and I'm sure the deck clut is only going to increase......
> 
> ...


Wow! Sorry about the health problems... but look forward to seeing you down here. Look me up.

Brian


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## steve77 (Aug 5, 2010)

chucklesR said:


> Folding is useful depending on your marina/docking situation as well as when on the hard - some marina's will charge the extra footage length your davits extend into (in my experience they all will).
> 
> as to 316/304 - all the stuff I've gotten from Garhauer was 316. I can't imagine the davit's are not, but the web site doesn't say.
> I'd buy direct from them - MauriPro and others that re-sell them tack on 2-300 bucks for no added value.


I don't think the davits would extend all that far off the transom, assuming the dinghy wasn't on them. Not my boat, but a picture of a C34 with davits:


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Cruisingdad said:


> We raise our tender because it keeps the growth off. Its a royal pain to keep hauling off the engine and finding some place to flip it over and scrape it.


I suspect there's not much difference in the ways we each use our respective tenders, although mine is obviously of a more manageable size than yours... I, too, hoist my dinghy at every opportunity, it's a snap using my spinnaker halyard, and less complicated than dealing with a twin davit system at the stern would be for me...

Of course, davits are pretty much out of the question for a boat the size and shape of mine... Plus, no way would I trade my windvane for a tender hanging off the stern... 



Cruisingdad said:


> Jon, I also disagree with your statement that it needs to be flat water (or almost). I have had mine out in 15 foot seas, and regularly in smaller seas. Not ideal, but fine.


Well, I'll have to take your word on that... Based upon my experience on boats with tenders on davits in seas but a fraction of that size, I would have brought the dink on deck long before setting out upon a trip on which I thought there might even be the remotest possibility of encountering 15' seas... 



Cruisingdad said:


> Another problem is that many boats do not have good tie-downs to secure a RIB on deck.


That can be pretty easily remedied with the installation of a few Wichard folding padeyes, or similar... I bit less expensive than a $2800 set of Kato davits, I might add... 



Cruisingdad said:


> The issue with you and Main is not the davits per se, it is your transom. On my boat, I can hook up the davits easily, crawl off on my sugar scoop, and raise it up. Easy cheesy and quick. You and Main and other swept backs require more maneuvering and man-handling so davits are not as convenient for you. I can see where you might opt to raise it via a halyard instead. However, I still suspect davits would be more convenient and you would end up with it out of the water more and towing it less. We almost never tow our tender anymore. I am just assuming that you do more than I based upon observations of others without davits.
> 
> Of course, Graham has the same transom as you and Main. My suggestion to him would be if it is more convenient to hoist the tender up via davits, get them... especially if he is going to be cruising. For cruising, I put davits (or a solar arch which can double as davits) really high on my list. They are one of the most highly used pieces of equipment I own.
> 
> Brian


Obviously, we're talking about boats of widely different styles and dimensions, here... The beam carried well aft on your Catalina obviously lends itself to the stowage of a tender on davits far better than the finer transom of a Bristol 38.8...



















The primary thing I've found to be bothersome with dinghies on davits on boats like the Bristol, is the extreme 'protrusion' they can represent outboard of the stern, and the difficulties that can represent around docks, particularly those with pilings... One of the beauties of that hull shape that Ted Hood drew, was the utility of a finer stern in being able to pivot the boat clear of a face dock in a tight spot, or when being pinned against a dock by the breeze... More than once, I've been inhibited from doing what I really wanted to do, due to the possibility of having the tender getting caught on a piling, or whatever...

I've also seen my fair share of people struggling to 'work around' a dink on davits when attempting to get stern lines on the outboard pilings of a slip, and so on... And, for offshore, it's not hard for me to imagine a scenario where a tender on davits could seriously compromise a crew's ability to deal with something like a MOB situation, or deployment of a drogue, etc...

As always, other's mileage may vary, just thought I'd pose the question, is all... Looks like Graham has already made up his mind, anyway...


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## GrahamO (Apr 4, 2012)

John,
This is a very different - functional - argument to your original aesthetics issues. I will stick my dink on a drawing and take a look at it. I certainly see many reasons to have davits although I would not use them all the time. We are on a mooring or at anchor normally and rarely go to a dock. I suspect that would be the same in the Bahamas.

Graham



> The primary thing I've found to be bothersome with dinghies on davits on boats like the Bristol, is the extreme 'protrusion' they can represent outboard of the stern, and the difficulties that can represent around docks, particularly those with pilings... One of the beauties of that hull shape that Ted Hood drew, was the utility of a finer stern in being able to pivot the boat clear of a face dock in a tight spot, or when being pinned against a dock by the breeze... More than once, I've been inhibited from doing what I really wanted to do, due to the possibility of having the tender getting caught on a piling, or whatever...
> 
> I've also seen my fair share of people struggling to 'work around' a dink on davits when attempting to get stern lines on the outboard pilings of a slip, and so on... And, for offshore, it's not hard for me to imagine a scenario where a tender on davits could seriously compromise a crew's ability to deal with something like a MOB situation, or deployment of a drogue, etc...
> 
> As always, other's mileage may vary, just thought I'd pose the question, is all... Looks like Graham has already made up his mind, anyway...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

JonEisberg said:


> I suspect there's not much difference in the ways we each use our respective tenders, although mine is obviously of a more manageable size than yours... I, too, hoist my dinghy at every opportunity, it's a snap using my spinnaker halyard, and less complicated than dealing with a twin davit system at the stern would be for me...
> 
> Of course, davits are pretty much out of the question for a boat the size and shape of mine... Plus, no way would I trade my windvane for a tender hanging off the stern...
> 
> ...


Hey John,

Much of what you say is true, but you find a way around it. I personally hate hauling a tender aboard and found the davits much faster than a halyard. My boat will accomodate a tie down on deck, and for long runs (much of what you do) it makes sense. Not so with how I cruise. I also find that I put up covers on the bow of my boat and that would make stowing the tender there even more of a PITA - having to take them up and down all the time.

On a MOB, the davits might be a lot easier than a halyard - esp with a sugar scoop. I can get to water level and hook someone on while you are reaching over four feet down at the rockiest point of the boat (mid ships).

You are correct about the transom between our boats - and I mentioned that. Personally, with all due respect, I think a boat without a sugar scoop probably would not make my cut for cruising... but that is just me. I know we probably disagree on that too.

I still believe that I would price a custom made arch that could double for panels if I was Graham. But if you hate the look of davits, Jon, I cannot imagine what you think about the solar arch idea!! Pig and lipstick.

Brian


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## GrahamO (Apr 4, 2012)

Here is our dink to scale on the back of the Bristol. Certainly not ideal, but OK for island hopping methinks.










Graham


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

GrahamO said:


> Here is our dink to scale on the back of the Bristol. Certainly not ideal, but OK for island hopping methinks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That will be fine.

You will want to make sure that when travelling with it, you really have it secured for lateral movement. I use ratcheting straps that cross it like a giant X. I also use another line to pull it tight to the davits/boat.

On the main bar I have a cam cleat that holds it for quick connections, then I finish with a cleat on top. Not sure if the Gar comes with that, but I would buy it.

Brian


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

I had Kato davits on my last boat, a Catalina 400. 

Excellent quality and superb customer service. 

I also had a Garhauer lift for the outboard. I do think that Garhauer makes good products that are attractively priced. It amazed me that Garhauer could sell the entire motor lift for around $300-400 when just the flag pole mount for my Kato davits was $150 ...
The one negative thing with the Garhauer lift is that it got "rusty" and needed to be polished way earlier than any of the other stainless on the boat.

If I were to do it again I would do exactly what Brian is suggesting, get a custom fabricated stainless arch that incorporates davits. The arch can be used for davits, solar panel mounts, gps antenna mounts and even to mount a Viking life raft in a canister.

Also an arch would be much stronger than Kato or Garhauer davits and able to withstand forces in a sea state better. My Katos flexed a fair bit in a seat state (part of it was the davits, part of it was stern pulpit and vertical transom wall flexing). 

I hoisted dink onto fore deck when doing longer passages where any significant sea state could be anticipated.

Although I tend to agree with Jon's comment regarding aesthetics, for island hopping in the Bahamas and/or Caribbean davits or arch is high on my list of must haves.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

My wife calls the tubular stainless davits, "folding lawn chair davits". She's right. They all look cheap and it's exactly what we have. I hate them, buy they serve a purpose. On the other hand, Kato's Voyager davits can look quite nice, especially painted white. I don't believe Garhauer has a similar model. Well, they look nice until you haul the dinghy up on them. 

Personally, with our sugar scoop, our biggest headache is raising and dropping over the scoop. We had a custom flat fender made for the purpose.

I would love to find an attractive davit system that articulated away and over the scoop. Most of those look like heavy construction equipment.


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## steve77 (Aug 5, 2010)

GrahamO said:


> Here is our dink to scale on the back of the Bristol. Certainly not ideal, but OK for island hopping methinks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How long is your dinghy?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

chef2sail said:


> Yes quite a shame to ruin the aesthetic lines drawn, that's why we have museums and pictures. I've seen many beautiful Hinkleys and Morris adorned with self steering vanes, davits radar poles, etc.
> 
> I guess lots of people use their boats and adorn them with creature comforts and safety devices to make them more user friendly and really not worry about being photoshoot for magazines.


But they still have to row away from them.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

jorgenl said:


> The one negative thing with the Garhauer lift is that it got "rusty" and needed to be polished way earlier than any of the other stainless on the boat.


I'd bet they forego electropolishing in order to keep the price low.

You can get it done yourself and it's not that expensive - probably something like a boat quarter for a pair of tubular davits if memory serves.

Presto, changeo - no more rust or polishing.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> My wife calls the tubular stainless davits, "folding lawn chair davits". She's right. They all look cheap and it's exactly what we have. I hate them, buy they serve a purpose. On the other hand, Kato's Voyager davits can look quite nice, especially painted white. I don't believe Garhauer has a similar model. Well, they look nice until you haul the dinghy up on them.
> 
> Personally, with our sugar scoop, our biggest headache is raising and dropping over the scoop. We had a custom flat fender made for the purpose.
> 
> I would love to find an attractive davit system that articulated away and over the scoop. Most of those look like heavy construction equipment.


The ones I recommended don't look like lawn furniture - they look like and are built like high quality pulpits. I would have kept them if the boat was bigger but it was just too much stuff & weight hanging off the end. They added about $50/month to my moorage bill as well.


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

This is a fantastic thread. My wife and I are now going through all the options. Once again sailnet is a great help! Thanks!

+ Davits
+ Radar Arch with built in davits
+ Set the dink on the forward deck and lash down. We have done this a couple of times with using the spinnaker halyard, it was pretty easy to do. 

The question with the dink on the forward deck is the obstruction it creates for when we want to set the spinnaker. We need to try that. 

We also want to have a wind generator so a single solution like an arch seems really attractive.


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## GrahamO (Apr 4, 2012)

9' 10" Achilles HB300FX lightweight RIB. Tohatsu 9.8 outboard.

Graham



steve77 said:


> How long is your dinghy?


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## steve77 (Aug 5, 2010)

GrahamO said:


> 9' 10" Achilles HB300FX lightweight RIB. Tohatsu 9.8 outboard.
> 
> Graham


That's the same dinghy I'm thinking of getting, how do you like it?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Cruisingdad said:


> Hey John,
> 
> Much of what you say is true, but you find a way around it. I personally hate hauling a tender aboard and found the davits much faster than a halyard. My boat will accomodate a tie down on deck, and for long runs (much of what you do) it makes sense. Not so with how I cruise. I also find that I put up covers on the bow of my boat and that would make stowing the tender there even more of a PITA - having to take them up and down all the time.


I think you may have misunderstood what I meant by "lifting my tender" whenever possible... I was referring simply to lifting it clear of the water when at anchor, to inhibit bottom fouling, or for security at night - not bringing it over the lifelines, and back on deck... Using a 3-point bridle, and my spinnaker halyard, it's a very easy procedure, I simply hoist it to deck level, and secure it fore and aft to the toerail...



Cruisingdad said:


> On a MOB, the davits might be a lot easier than a halyard - esp with a sugar scoop. I can get to water level and hook someone on while you are reaching over four feet down at the rockiest point of the boat (mid ships).


Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of the potential interference with the deployment of MOB gear, or use of a Lifesling, etc... In a real seaway, with a boat pitching heavily, attempting to bring a MOB back aboard via a sugar scoop transom can present a significant danger to a person in the water... With the boat hove-to, amidships will actually be the 'quietest' part of the boat in terms of motion, and the nearly vertical topsides there will present less risk to a swimmer brought alongside for retrieval... The increasing popularity of drop-down, 'Beach Club' style transoms like the one below, could pose a VERY serious risk to a person in the water in a seaway - and the potential use of one to recover a MOB in a confused sea state would seem to me to be very risky... I wouldn't want a MOB getting anywhere near those sharp corners and hard edges in anything but the most benign conditions, or unless they were wearing a helmet... 












Cruisingdad said:


> You are correct about the transom between our boats - and I mentioned that. Personally, with all due respect, I think a boat without a sugar scoop probably would not make my cut for cruising... but that is just me. I know we probably disagree on that too.


Actually, I have little issue with sugar scoops in principle, beyond the fact they sometimes make mounting a windvane problematic, and in an area like the Rio Dulce where security might be a serious issue, are an open invitation for a swimmer to board your yacht... 



Cruisingdad said:


> I still believe that I would price a custom made arch that could double for panels if I was Graham. But if you hate the look of davits, Jon, I cannot imagine what you think about the solar arch idea!! Pig and lipstick.
> 
> Brian


You're right, I don't care much for the look of an arch, but more contemporary boats like yours can often manage to pull off the look with very little detrimental effect... But with a classic New England yacht in the style of a Hinckley or Morris, I can't see being able to pull it off without completely ruining the appearance of the boat... Again, perhaps it's just me, but I think to put a stainless steel arch on the back of a beauty like petmac's Hinckley, would be nothing short of an abomination... 










Stern arches seem to have achieved the status of a 'necessity' among today's cruisers, I accept that... Doesn't mean I'll ever have one aboard a boat of mine, however  Again, I suppose it's just me, but the thought that davits for my tender might be considered an "essential" for "island hopping", or any of the other cruising I have ever done, has simply never occurred to me, I've somehow managed just fine without them... A big part of that is keeping the size and weight of my tender manageable, however, perhaps I'd feel differently if I were beholden to the sort of SUV-style dinghies that seem to becoming more and more commonplace today, and thus driving the perceived 'need' for the gear sized to deal with them...

Some folks are definitely getting carried away with this stuff, however... Perhaps I should include the rest of Bob Perry's quote I referred to earlier, regarding the photo of the sort of appendages some of his Valiants are sporting today:



> Talk about ridiculous windage aft, i.e. uncontrollable sail area. Those cutters are really ketches with mizzens you can't trim.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> The ones I recommended don't look like lawn furniture - they look like and are built like high quality pulpits. I would have kept them if the boat was bigger but it was just too much stuff & weight hanging off the end. They added about $50/month to my moorage bill as well.


I'm afraid she thinks they do. The tubular, reinforced design, particularly if set up to fold in, all do. I agree with her. No offense intended. I have a set.


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## GrahamO (Apr 4, 2012)

*Re: Davits - Kato or Garhauer? Dinghy sidetrack*

We really like it. It is still running in but it planes easily at half throttle with two of us in it and shopping. It is pretty light to handle and the transom folds flat when deflated making for a VERY small deck package.

VERY pleased so far.

Graham



steve77 said:


> That's the same dinghy I'm thinking of getting, how do you like it?


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## steve77 (Aug 5, 2010)

*Re: Davits - Kato or Garhauer? Dinghy sidetrack*



GrahamO said:


> We really like it. It is still running in but it planes easily at half throttle with two of us in it and shopping. It is pretty light to handle and the transom folds flat when deflated making for a VERY small deck package.
> 
> VERY pleased so far.
> 
> Graham


Thanks. The relatively light weight and folding transom are big attractions for me.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Sorry for the thread drift Graham... but...



JonEisberg said:


> Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of the potential interference with the deployment of MOB gear, or use of a Lifesling, etc... In a real seaway, with a boat pitching heavily, attempting to bring a MOB back aboard via a sugar scoop transom can present a significant danger to a person in the water... With the boat hove-to, amidships will actually be the 'quietest' part of the boat in terms of motion, and the nearly vertical topsides there will present less risk to a swimmer brought alongside for retrieval... The increasing popularity of drop-down, 'Beach Club' style transoms like the one below, could pose a VERY serious risk to a person in the water in a seaway - and the potential use of one to recover a MOB in a confused sea state would seem to me to be very risky... I wouldn't want a MOB getting anywhere near those sharp corners and hard edges in anything but the most benign conditions, or unless they were wearing a helmet...


Well, we will agree to disagree Jon (not the first time, snicker).

I would much rather be at the helm or close to it where I can keep a constant eye on the person in the water and within a few feet of control of the boat to help them. Retrieval at midships requires leaving the helm and probably loss of all eye-sight of the person in the water (and you already know how I feel about leaving the helm!!!). And putting them abeam on a rolling boat where the bow may very well be trying to fall off and move faster than they are is not a good solution for me. Not to mention, the freeboard may be out of their reach and impossible to grab (or it gets jerked out of their hands on the opposite roll). And its not like they will just stay right at midships. Either the boat outruns them (most likely) or they outrun the boat. The two are not going to run in perfect conjuction.

Instead, by releasing the lifesling, being at the helm, and helping to haul (or winch) them aboard all while being near the controls of the boat and being able to keep a constant eye on them is more important to me. As my davits (and many I see) overhang the transom, you can use them to hoist up and minimizing any head-banging danger. They will come up at a 45 degree angle until they are mostly out of the water. At any rate, I would prefer having them close and mangeable to stern (since the boat is probably running faster than they are) then to beam and out of sight in a rolling boat.

And lets not forget, should the conditions be such that the beam is a better "pickup" point, I still have that option whereas someone without a sugar scoop does not have mine. Nah, I will stick with my sugar scoops.

As far as the drop down platforms, I have not done a MOB drill on one, but I can see your point. On the Bene, though, can't you raise the platform and crawl over it? Isn't there still a small ledge? Seems like I remember that. Anyways, that is not a problem I have to deal with. Others with experience on those boats can chime in. But even so, it seems to still be a better method than abeam... but again, I have no direct experience with them in MOB.

Brian


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## GrahamO (Apr 4, 2012)

No big deal Brian,
The thread has already delivered on the original question and wandered off into all sorts of interesting stuff - as they do.



Cruisingdad said:


> Sorry for the thread drift Graham... but...
> 
> Brian


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

OK, my final potshot at the aesthetics of tenders on davits... I promise... 

This is my current ride... Modern boats just don't come much prettier than a Cabo Rico 42... The beautiful sheer, low freeboard, a hull form very reminiscent of a Cherubini...










Moreover, they pass the acid test of beauty in a sailing yacht, looking their best - as only boats like Hinckleys and Aldens manage to do - from that least flattering view of many, that from over the stern quarter...

Or, sometimes not...

Damn, I hope Chuck Paine never sees this... 










One feature I really appreciate in a boat, especially when singlehanding, is the ability to simply pop my head up out of the companionway, and be able to make a full scan of the horizon from there...

Needless to say, a clear, unobstructed view aft on this one is somewhat compromised 










Running a boat like this, it's easy for to appreciate why - whenever I happen to be running a fast boat on the ICW - those snowbirds huddled inside their oxygen tents _NEVER_ seem to me coming...


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Now that looks like someone who knows what they are doing and like to go cruising in style and comfort and equipped their beautiful boat accordingly and uses it. Stereo, cockpit table, cushions, electronics, motor on the rail, davits, protective bimini and dodger to prevent cancer and keep you from getting worn out by the elements. Beautiful boats are to be enjoyed not just gazed at.


JonEisberg said:


> One feature I really appreciate in a boat, especially when singlehanding, is the ability to simply pop my head up out of the companionway, and be able to make a full scan of the horizon from there...
> 
> Needless to say, a clear, unobstructed view aft on this one is somewhat compromised
> 
> ...


Couldnt you just put the dinghy on the foredeck so you could see out the stern if it bothered you???:laugher:laugher



> Running a boat like this, it's easy for to appreciate why - whenever I happen to be running a fast boat on the ICW - those snowbirds huddled inside their oxygen tents _NEVER_ seem to me comin


And here I thought they would surely hear your teeth chattering, pages from the paper charts rustling, and the slide rule clanging as you approached them ( grin). Guess they need side mirrors so they can see behind them like a truck has, Maybe they have more than oxygen in those tents:laugher:laugher


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## kellysails (Nov 1, 2008)

JonEisberg said:


> The increasing popularity of drop-down, 'Beach Club' style transoms like the one below, could pose a VERY serious risk to a person in the water in a seaway - and the potential use of one to recover a MOB in a confused sea state would seem to me to be very risky... I wouldn't want a MOB getting anywhere near those sharp corners and hard edges in anything but the most benign conditions, or unless they were wearing a helmet...


Since you are poking fun at my "Beach Club" style transom, our MOB plans do not include taking the time (it would be a lot of time) to drop the transom. And combined with the obvious issues as you state, that would indeed be a very bad idea. Just 'cause us "beach club types" like perches to hang our trophy women off of, it does not mean we do not have common sense when it comes to MOB best practices. :laugher


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

While the drop down transom isn't my cup of tea for an all-around vessel, the Bavaria we bareboat in the BVI had one. For those conditions and purpose, I have to say it was pretty nice.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

chef2sail said:


> Couldnt you just put the dinghy on the foredeck so you could see out the stern if it bothered you???:laugher:laugher


Actually, the view forward isn't much better... When seated atop a couple of cushions, that tiny 'slit' between the plotter and instruments gives you your sightline to the horizon...










I don't believe I've ever seen the workspace of the cockpit on a 40+ foot boat more compromised by such a humongous cluster of NavPods...












chef2sail said:


> And here I thought they would surely hear your teeth chattering, pages from the paper charts rustling, and the slide rule clanging as you approached them ( grin). Guess they need side mirrors so they can see behind them like a truck has, Maybe they have more than oxygen in those tents:laugher:laugher


Nah, I'm generally inside of an enclosure of my own if on the bridge of a fast powerboat, after all...  You're right, however - side mirrors probably would be a worthy addition to some of those Winnebagos...

Taking my own boat south, however, appropriate clothing, weather cloths, and running the bus heater while under power can go a surprisingly long way towards avoiding the chill... 

As long as I'm one the subject of some of the things that irk me about an otherwise magnificent boat, I may as well mention the lines led aft from the mast, and the impressive amount of water that arrangement on this particular boat will allow to pass into what could otherwise remain a very dry cockpit...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Yup. That's a petty bad design for bringing lines back to the cockpit. 

Ours come through a chase that is four feet long and, if you were to pour water in it, it flows out not into the cockpit. Im sure water washes up a bit, but almost never makes it that far. If you were to get water to make it back to the cockpit, the cabin top drains away from the cockpit for the most part.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> Yup. That's a petty bad design for bringing lines back to the cockpit.
> 
> Ours come through a chase that is four feet long and, if you were to pour water in it, it flows out not into the cockpit. Im sure water washes up a bit, but almost never makes it that far. If you were to get water to make it back to the cockpit, the cabin top drains away from the cockpit for the most part.


What's particularly odd about the execution of this one, is that Chuck Paine drew into the design a massive, stout dodger coaming of the style often seen on Aldens... It serves to better integrate the lines of the dodger into those of the deckhouse, and affords the best opportunity to create a truly watertight leading edge to the dodger...

But then, to cut out such a large raceway for the lines, it just makes no sense...

This boat does have a Leisure-Furl, so it certainly does make sense to have the halyard and downhaul led aft... And, with mid boom sheeting, there's little option than to bring the traveler controls and mainsheet through the coaming, as well...

All this is really nit-picking, of course... Still, it's always surprising how much of an annoyance some of this stuff can become even over the course of a short trip... Upside is that I'm often all the happier to get back aboard my own little tub...


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