# Would you buy an early 80's cored hull boat?



## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

I know that the cored hull issue has been kicked around for some time now but I am wondering if those who support the cored hull concept would consider buying a 30-35 year old cored hull boat. Since I have started seriously considering buying another boat I have begun to have doubts about a cored hull that is that long in the tooth so to speak. I know that the chances of water intrusion would increase with age but I don't have any idea of what the odds would be or to what extent. If anyone has experience with this Please enlighten me.


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

Sure. Water intrusion is most likely where the hull has been penetrated, for example, cockpit drains, exhaust discharge, through hulls, knot log, depth sounder, etc. You should inspect these areas particularly carefully. Sometimes you'll find that the manufacturer has solid glass in these areas.
Initially I'd be more concerned about leaks in the deck particularly around the chainplates.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

A survey should spot a wet cored hull. Decks are of WAY more concern.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

you mean balsa cored... foam cored is ok... you know like a Capri... hehehe


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

contrarian said:


> I know that the cored hull issue has been kicked around for some time now but I am wondering if those who support the cored hull concept would consider buying a 30-35 year old cored hull boat. Since I have started seriously considering buying another boat I have begun to have doubts about a cored hull that is that long in the tooth so to speak. I know that the chances of water intrusion would increase with age but I don't have any idea of what the odds would be or to what extent. If anyone has experience with this Please enlighten me.


Yes I would, after a thorough marine survey on the hard and the expectation that I might be repairing the hull at some point at great expense/inconvenience. The answer to your question depends on the builder and the maintenance. Some hulls were only cored about the waterline, others the entire hull. C&Cs, J/boats and early Olsons were all well-built cored boats that are still out there winning races and cruising.

Wet core is not the end of the world. It can be repaired and it does not necessarily diminish structural strength to the point where you would be in peril.

There are some more thorough discussions on this topic over in Sailing Anarchy, because more racing sailboats than cruising sailboats were cored. It seems many buy cored boats with the expectation that they will initially repair the trouble spots, often the transom with an external-hung rudder, and thru-hulls, and monitor the hull for degradation.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

I personally would prefer a solid FRP hull but some cored hulls of that vintage are still as dry and sound as the day they were built. it all depends on the builder. In those days a QC program was a rare thing and some builders built great boats on Tuesday and crap on Thursday. Any boat with a cored hull (whatever it's cored with) should be out of the water for 48hrs before survey.

Numbers off the top of my head ...... My experience shows that J-boats and Nonsuchs have a 50-50 chance of serious core degradation in the bottom, C&C's approx. 30%.

The cost to re-core the deck on a typical 30' sailboat in Southern Ontario is somewhere over 10k. I was recently involved with a Nonsuch 30 bottom core job that was quoted at 60k.

The cost to recore a bottom is much higher than decks because of the difficulty of working overhead and the extreme amount of fairing involved. 

be careful and you can still find a good one.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I own a 1977-built boat with an airex foam cored hull. No problems, and many nice pluses over a solid hull. 

I would most definitely examine the hull closely before purchasing. Pay close attention to any owner-installed thru fittings. Ensure you know the history of the boat (any hard groundings). Get a good survey. Research the original build quality. 

If the answers all come back positive, then I'd have no concerns buying the boat.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I personally would prefer a solid FRP hull but some cored hulls of that vintage are still as dry and sound as the day they were built. it all depends on the builder. In those days a QC program was a rare thing and some builders built great boats on Tuesday and crap on Thursday. Any boat with a cored hull (whatever it's cored with) should be out of the water for 48hrs before survey.


Boat Poker, you make some interesting points especially the 48 hours on the hard before a survey is initiated. This was part of my concern as well, in that I believe there is always saturation before de-lamination and the possibility that it could be missed in the survey. Of course I wouldn't have the expertise of Dave Pascoe ( Cheap Shot&#8230; Sorry ) to make the determination. There are posts on this forum regarding saturated hull cores that do give me pause, one in particular by Sailing Dog with respect to a mounting screw for a bilge pump that created an enormous amount of saturation. I know this probably seems a little paranoid for the purchase of a <30k boat but for me it's probably equivalent to Bill Gates buying a Billion dollar boat (can't comment on Larry Ellison). Anyway the boat in question is a Tartan 33 which has coring below the waterline and is one of the boats on my short list. As I put the pluses and minuses down on paper I am counting the cored hull as a minus. It's not a deal breaker but it definitely has my attention.

While I am at it I thought I would throw out some of my thoughts on my short list and see if I can get any additional feedback. What I like about the Tartan is the Scheel keel which gives shallow draft without some of the pitfalls of the wing keel although it is a double edged sword in that the pointing ability of the boat is compromised. I like the cockpit configuration of the boat and I just like the way the boat looks&#8230;sweet lines topsides anyway, down below not so much but definitely acceptable. The downside is I don't think it would be a great light air boat which I kinda need, doesn't point well and then there's the cored hull issue.

Other boats on the short list are the Beneteau First series from the mid eighties, 345,325,305 in that order.
The only ones I am considering are the tiller steered shoal draft versions. While I don't find these quite as aesthetically pleasing as the Tartan they are quite acceptable in that regard and I find that the interior layout below to be superior. I believe that the 325 and 345 even with the shoal draft would point higher and sail faster in light wind than any of the other boats on my list but I am guessing on the basis of PHRF ratings and not on actual experience.

The other boats rounding out the list are the Niagara 31, the Ericson 32-3 and finally the Pearson 10m simply because it is local, can be bought cheap and Dan Pfiefer has a terrific support site, otherwise I really wouldn't consider the Pearson because of the draft.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Not all 80 C&C are cored boats. Our 83 MKIII is not except the topside is.

Are well taken maintained of cored boat has no other difficulties than any other boat. The balsa core adds strength and stiffness.

Dave



jameswilson29 said:


> Yes I would, after a thorough marine survey on the hard and the expectation that I might be repairing the hull at some point at great expense/inconvenience. The answer to your question depends on the builder and the maintenance. Some hulls were only cored about the waterline, others the entire hull. C&Cs, J/boats and early Olsons were all well-built cored boats that are still out there winning races and cruising.
> 
> Wet core is not the end of the world. It can be repaired and it does not necessarily diminish structural strength to the point where you would be in peril.
> 
> There are some more thorough discussions on this topic over in Sailing Anarchy, because more racing sailboats than cruising sailboats were cored. It seems many buy cored boats with the expectation that they will initially repair the trouble spots, often the transom with an external-hung rudder, and thru-hulls, and monitor the hull for degradation.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Not all 80 C&C are cored boats. Our 83 MKIII is not except the topside


Dave what am I missing here, the brochures found on line for these boats say "balsa cored hull" and the ones I have looked had balsa to within 13" of the keel.

PS. I find the word topside confusing as most use it improperly. The "topside" is the area between the water line and the toe rail, is this what you meant ?


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

This is a J24 plug I drilled when mine was new to put in a knot meter

ALL Jboats right up to the J160 the outer skin is only about 4 mm at most









I dug that piece of skin out of the jack stands a J160 fell on in Hungtion










The warranty was always kind of a joke in that gelcoat was not covered










Plenty of J24s and J30s (the oldest boats )have gone to boat heaven due extensive core issues


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

boatpoker said:


> Dave what am I missing here, the brochures found on line for these boats say "balsa cored hull" and the ones I have looked had balsa to within 13" of the keel.
> 
> PS. I find the word topside confusing as most use it improperly. The "topside" is the area between the water line and the toe rail, is this what you meant ?


Good thing most don't use it improperly like you. Dont be such an authority. Give me a break.
Topside - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

You have had this same issue in the past of your postings concerning C&C coring and you still have your blinders on I see

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...77-c-c-sailboats-have-balsa-cored-hull-3.html

While its great to use brochures to educate yourself I find first hand information to be more reliable. There are many C&C built with hulls which were cored. There also were many which were not. Trust me as I have put thru hulls in mine as well as understand its makeup. Mine is not cored completely. In certain areas but not throughout. the areas it is cored there is well over 3/4 inch of laminate on each side of the balsa end grain. well overbuilt id say. And only in some areas like the deck, coach roof etc. is it thinner, maybe 1/2 inch on either side. Many of the areas like the chain plate and where attachment points for winches were solid fiberglass well over an inch thick.

The issue is not whether they used fiberberglass or coring but how was it laid and if it has been penetrated by attachments/ bolts etc, was the area " handled" correctly. Since the topsides have many more penetratns thats where you find any problems, as the hulls have very few penetrations, and as i stated many of them are aolid glass areas.

You'd be hard pressed to find boats of today use the amount of fiberglass that the older C&Cs used. Their build quality at the time was unquestionably top notch.

It's great you have talked to Cuthbertson and know him. I too have. Especially about this issue.

One month ago I drilled out a three quarter inch hole just below the deck/ hull flange attachment for a second vent for our holding tank as the original was only 3/8 inch and didn't aerate it enough. Solid fiberglass plug in the hole saw over 1 inch thick.

What is most I important to me is the hull integrity and how it was maintained. A well maintained boat is what you should look for. I have seen many other cored hulls in great condition I wouldn't have any problem recommending. I also have seen many solid hulls I would run away from due to lack of maintainence.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> Good thing most don't use it improperly like you. Dont be such an authority. Give me a break.
> Topside - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
> 
> You have had this same issue in the past of your postings concerning C&C coring and you still have your blinders on I see
> ...


No need to be so touchy Dave but I suggest you consult a maritime dictionary for a definition of "topside" as it applies to boats. If I may duggest one, how about Admiral W.H.Smyth's "The Sailors Word Book".

As to you mkIII having a balsa cored hull, well I guess George Cuthbertson must be wrong if you say so.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

boatpoker said:


> No need to be so touchy Dave but I suggest you consult a maritime dictionary for a definition of "topside" as it applies to boats. If I may duggest one, how about Admiral W.H.Smyth's "The Sailors Word Book".
> 
> As to you mkIII having a balsa cored hull, well I guess George Cuthbertson must be wrong if you say so.


No ones being touchy my friend. It was your presumptuous post of grammatical superiority about the word topsides. I guess you haven't progressed to using Websters Dictionary yet.


> PS. I find the word topside confusing as most use it improperly. The "topside" is the area between the water line and the toe rail, is this what you meant ? Boatpoker


As far as Cuthbertsons statement you perhaps have taken it out of context. I have met and spoken with him a few times over the course of my C&C ownership at rondevous and such and he explained the use of the balsa in stiffening the hull, and also indicated that if properly maintained should present no serious problems or issues. He never once found or stated that is was an inherent weakness of the boat or.hull, and in fact stated that the way C&C did the process improved the boat. He also stated how they purposely overbuilt it, and did not use less fiberglass thickness than the previous MKI which was a SOLID laminate hull.

I pretty much explained about the hull on our C&C 35 MKIii as did others in the previous Sailnet thread where other actiual C&C owners identified misstatements of yours. If you read it carefully, many models previously to the newer ones 
were solid hulls. That's a fact that others who own the boats posted. Our 35 MKIII models hull is not entirely cored and where it is it has 3/4 inch laminate on either side of the core. As previously stayed, way overbuilt compared to the Js 4 mm. Since there are very few penetrations into the core on the hull, mainly thru hulls, if properly maintained there should be no issues. In my MKIII where the factory thru hulls were placed, there was a large area surrounding them where the core was hollowed out replaced by fiberglass.

As stated by other. C&C owners in the previous quoted thread which you obviously skipped over or discounted as it didn't fit into your opinion, most issues concerning the balsa core have appeared TOPSIDES on the deck or coach house. As stated by these same owners very few if any have seen issues with the C&C hull coring which was done to lighten the boats as well as stiffen them for competitiveness in performance. 

Hopefully this clears this up for others who are looking to buy older C&C boats. I find while true owners love the boats thy bought, the also are willing and know enough about their boats to discuss heir inherent weaknesses and are willing to do so. Almost all of us have discounted your statements about the cored hull weakness of C&C myth. 

So who do you listen to...a powerboatsers reading brochures.......or C&C owners who have posted in this or the other imbedded threads.

Just saying


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

chef2sail said:


> Good thing most don't use it improperly like you. Dont be such an authority. Give me a break.
> Topside - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
> ....


It is pretty humorous but not surprising that a source like M-W might get a marine definition wrong, or at least incomplete, but I think it utterly silly that a SN KIA would get something so simple, well, so wrong. And then go on, and on, and on...


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

chef2sail said:


> So who do you listen to...a powerboatsers reading brochures.......or C&C owners who have posted in this or the other imbedded threads.
> 
> Just saying


That's funny  Let me pose another question ....
So who do you listen, to a MkIII owner or C&C ?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

chef2sail said:


> No ones being touchy my friend. It was your presumptuous post of grammatical superiority about the word topsides. I guess you haven't progressed to using Websters Dictionary yet.


Boatpoker had it right.

2 (often topsides) the upper part of a ship's side, above the waterline: newly painted topsides.

Of course I have progressed to using the OED - Websters is only a whistle stop on the way to correct English.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Jon with due respect

Look up again what I said I used the word


> topside


.....I didnt say topsides.

THe two have very different meanings which ever dumb ass dictionary you want to use.

I said topside as to go topside the topside of the boat, which is usually the deck of some sort

You and you buddy boatpoker are sing the term TOPSIDES. See the s there .the s changes the meaning. Topsides IS the side of the hull above the waterline. BUT I didn't use that word did I now. I used the word TOPSIDE

Now for the other hater, sailingfool, if being right makes me a SN KIA what does being wrong make you....a SN DA.?

Just so you don't think I only use Webster...a good start by the way. Look at the definition in this nautical marine sailing dictionary. It clearly defines topside from topsides. Maybe this will help Boatpoker with his confusion when he gets the difference between using the s and not. His term topside is NOT the side of the boat.

Nautical Dictionary, Glossary and Terms directory: Search Results


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Lemme reiterate... Capri 25... NO balsa core. Ok, the keel.. but that is it.
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/manbro/Capri25ArchDrawings.pdf
Page 6...

Capri 25, holds up better than gulp, a J/24


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Chef - do you know what the correct response would be on SA?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SloopJonB said:


> Chef - do you know what the correct response would be on SA?


And the relevance of that Jon. Who really cares what SA says it does change what is correct:laugher

Jon just admit it. Topside and topsides mean two different things

. You and your Buddy Boatpoker were eliminated by that question on Who Wants to be A Millionaire. Next time at leat you both know the correct answer and the difference between topside and topsides.

Back to the regular Scheduled topic, cored boats.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

chef2sail said:


> Jon with due respect
> 
> Look up again what I said I used the word .....I didnt say topsides.
> 
> ...


You should recognize when you have an empty hand and let something go. But you just cant do that, can you?



chef2sail said:


> Not all 80 C&C are cored boats. Our 83 MKIII is not except the topside is.


 FWIW, not much given how trivial it is, you are using the word as a noun, and as a noun it has only one definition, and that is not the meaning you so tiresomely defend. As an adverb or adjective, maybe but not at all in the context that you use the word.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

sailingfool said:


> You should recognize when you have an empty hand and let something go. But you just cant do that, can you?
> 
> FWIW, not much given how trivial it is, you are using the word as a noun, and as a noun it has only one definition, and that is not the meaning you so tiresomely defend. As an adverb or adjective, maybe but not at all in the context that you use the word.


Sailing fool, you are the one with the empty hand using it wrong so no i cant. Give it up.

In the phrase..... I am going topside. What does that mean? If we use term topside there, then we go to the hull above the waterline right? Explain that phrase to me or us. Or are we all using that phrase wrong,

I am going to the part of the hull between the waterline and the deck? Nope that word *



we all agree

Click to expand...

* and the dictionary. ( Webster or nautical) is topsides with an s.....a noun.

However I used the word TOPSIDE...no s on purpose.

Is the word topside in that sentence an adverb or adjective? Yes

A direct object as the direct object of the phrase is deck ( implied)..as I am going to the topside deck. We are going to the topside (deck) maybe implied as it was in my original statement where I mentioned our C&C was totally cored topside. Topside in that case is an adjective modifying a direct object. Used appropriately.

It would be incorrect to say I was going topsides as we all know that means the part between the waterline and deck.

This is a prime example while people trying to learn English find it somewhat difficult. Adding the s here doesn't make it plural, it changes the entire meaning.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

Why are you two on this idiotic tangent? You both have missed the point of the post. Do you think anybody but the two of you gives a $ hit?


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

contrarian said:


> Why are you two on this idiotic tangent? You both have missed the point of the post. Do you think anybody but the two of you gives a $ hit?


Feel free to read past my comments if they bother you so intensely. I was posting my opinions about the coring of boats until I was corrected incorrectly by the nautical dictionary police.

Again, cored hulls need to be inspected carefully, no doubt. However just because hulls are cored doesn't mean they are inherently more problems. Also as this thread has pointed out different manufacturers process surrounding a cored hull is also paramount.

The comparison of th J boat (4mm) and the C&C (1/2 - 3/4 ").

To check moisture is important in any boat before its purchase.

Also, not every manufacturer of cored boats does every model. The on ly example I am sure about because I am an owner. And belong to the C&C owners group are the C&c's. they are not all cored, the cored boats are not totally cored.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I used to wear Topsiders on my feet.

I resent people intruding into my area of chidish bickering.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

You want to avoid anything that looks like this;









This picture was taken in 2009 or 2010, of a 1989 Pearson 34-2 with a balsa-cored hull.

When I put my moisture meter near this spot, or any where between this and the keel, and the meter pegged (>30%). When I tested several other locations, the needle was in the 10% range.

My suspicion is that there was an impact with something (piling/log/rock/etc.) just below the surface, which cracked the outer laminate, and allowed moisture intrusion. Subsequent New England winters, and sub freezing temps, would cause the water to freeze, and... I am sure that you get the idea...


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## vtsailguy (Aug 4, 2010)

Hmmmm, I have a 1974 cored boat, a beautiful tartan 41. Prettiest boat around me. Check the blog link for pics.

Seems you roll your dice, if you get double sixes, you are screwed with delamination.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> You want to avoid anything that looks like this;


This is what I was looking for, thank you. I knew that the Tartan had been hard aground at least once and the care it was given by it's original owner was questionalble. Had the Pearson been on the hard for a while when the moisture readings were done? Since I'm not much of a gambler I would like to have as information as possible before rolling the dice.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

The Pearson was viewed in late April of 2010. It had been out of the water since the previous season.

Spend the $150 on a moisture meter, and save yourself a headache.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

I was definitely going to use the 33 meter but my concern is that it seems that the boat would need to be completly dry before you could get any accurate measurements of the Hull. No dew or any other moisture of any kind on the outside or inside. I don't know how its done in other area's of the country but around here a survey is typically done in the slings and the boat is not out of the water that long. Maybe it really is like VtSailguy says, you just roll the dice and hope you don't roll snake eyes.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

contrarian said:


> I was definitely going to use the 33 meter but my concern is that it seems that the boat would need to be completly dry before you could get any accurate measurements of the Hull. No dew or any other moisture of any kind on the outside or inside. I don't know how its done in other area's of the country but around here a survey is typically done in the slings and the boat is not out of the water that long. Maybe it really is like VtSailguy says, you just roll the dice and hope you don't roll snake eyes.


You are correct in your misgivings. Do not use a meter on a cored hull unless it has been in the slings at least overnight. You might want to check out
Moisture Meter Mythology


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

For the OP...in short, NO...I would not and did not have a problem buying a boat with a cored hull.

From a Boat US review:
"Construction of the Tartan 37 utilizes balsa wood core material in both the hull and decks. This provides strength, rigidity and results in a relatively light but strong structure. Secondary bonding and filleting of structural members to the hull of the Tartan 37 is some of the best that will be found in any production built boat and it is rare to find any structural problems with these boats, even those that are approaching 20 years old."
BoatUS - Boat Reviews - Tartan 37

And another:
"The hull is hand-laid fiberglass with end-grain balsa coring to improve stiffness without sacrificing weight. In areas of high stress such as the mast-step, through-hull fittings, chainplate terminals, engine supports and keel sections the coring is tapered into solid fiberglass." The Tartan 37 Sailboat : Bluewaterboats.org

Among all the debate I would purchase a well found cored hull before a compromised solid FRP hull. As mentioned, there are most likely a lot more issues regarding cored decks vs cored hulls.

When someone actually produces a study that shows REAL facts that one is better than the other, more than just speculation, it will just be a debate of ones persons opinion over another. Please someone site something tangeable.

I would focus on other things such as the moisture in the deck or perhaps the condition of the rigging. A good survey should be telling, if the results are positive I would not hesitate for a second to make the purchase


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

contrarian said:


> I was definitely going to use the 33 meter but my concern is that it seems that the boat would need to be completly dry before you could get any accurate measurements of the Hull. No dew or any other moisture of any kind on the outside or inside. I don't know how its done in other area's of the country but around here a survey is typically done in the slings and the boat is not out of the water that long. Maybe it really is like VtSailguy says, you just roll the dice and hope you don't roll snake eyes.


(now that I am back on a PC, instead of that damn phone I can reply...)
Not that you have not already done so, but I recommend that you take your CT-33 meter and thoroughly familiarize yourself with its behavior while checking through bottom paint. Use it on the bottom of a bunch of boats in any yard. Scanning won't hurt the boats, but you will get a feel for when you can, and cannot use the meter.

Many (most?) bottom paints contain copper. Copper, or any metal, will give you a high reading whether or not moisture is present. (The calibration plate for the meter includes a copper film to give it a known reading [14%] at a specific distance from the back of the meter.) The meter may also pick up metal (backing plates, chain, pie plates, fishing gear) that is stowed inside the hull. That being said, you should still use the meter to look for variations in the moisture readings, and then look to rationalize the variation.

In the pic above, I simply scanned along the outside of the hull while walking next to the boat. I noticed the meter as it jumped, and then scanned around that area more thoroughly. Those circles were about 6" in diameter, and they were very subtle. If not for the meter, I don't think that I would have discovered them.

YES the boat should be out of the water for at least a day - longer is better. Since your location and cruising area are secret, I don't know if boats in your area are hauled for the season. However, if I were considering taking ownership of any boat with a cored hull, I would wait to inspect it until after it had been pulled for the season, or spend the extra $200-300 to have it hauled for a couple of days. I would not want to end up paying for a $10K-$100K hull fix.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

sorry, but not only would i not buy onei wouldnot allow anyone i liked to buy one,either.
solid is awesome cruic¡sing boat--too many thinbgs happen to hulls out here--would not be a good choice for me or for those i know and like the company of. 
there are rocks in these anchorages, and some are just below surface. 
there are rocks on beach where dragging boats land.
there are rocks everywhere on this coast just waiting for our foul ups to occur..no cored hulls for me, ever.. thankyou.
they are great for light weight and racing boats but i would never cruise a boat with a cored hull. too much happens out here to risk loss of hull in a small ding event or grounding..
i bought this formosa because it is SOLID and can take a beating.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Here's some fuel for the fire;
Are They Fiberglass Boats Anymore? by David Pascoe, Marine Surveyor

Not to seem the hater, but I suspect no owner of a solid glass hull ever has had to pay the small fortune needed to re-core it...


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

as mine was laid over on a breakwall in a notoriously wicked locale for a WEEK and didnt die nor hole (before po bought this boat it was laid over on breakwall in santa barbara by a po i met in la cruz de huanacaxtle.)
as mine is definitely SOLID fg, 
i really dont see the point of having to recore any SOLID glass boat, as it is SOLID fg, hand laid, even
n. go figger. seems these older boats do have something to be proud of...lol SOLIDITY.

of course, those who dont know how to lay up a boat by hand may not realize solid means freeking solid.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

I would like to know where Gozzard got their "independent labs studies" information, of course this is promoting their use with current building.

Gozzard Yachts Brokerage - Gozzard Yachts Brokerage.

Cant argue that repairing a cored hull would be more costly, harder to find someone to do the work correctly, and if compromised would pretty much devalue the boat beyond anything returnable .


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

T37Chef said:


> I would like to know where Gozzard got their "independent labs studies" information, of course this is promoting their use with current building.
> 
> Gozzard Yachts Brokerage - Gozzard Yachts Brokerage.
> 
> .. .


I'm sure that Hinckley had wonderful things to say about their use of coring and Airex, maybe even a lot of the same words, but that all meant little to a friend owning a SW 42 surprised by the need to recore the hull. It was one thing to have to spend some $20 grand, but the real sting was losing use of the boat for a year...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

I suspect that Gozzard is referring to cored hulls that retain the same total thickness of glass that a single skin version would have - the core is "extra" so to speak.

In that case there is no question the hull would be stronger. In the real world, most cored boats have reduced glass skin thickness to achieve similar strength to a comparable solid laminate but at reduced weight - the stiffness imparted by the core allows less glass to be used.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

"but that all meant little to a friend owning a SW 42 surprised by the need to recore the hull. "

Really?

I'm not buying that. I'd have to see proof. I've been in this business 46 years and I have NEVER seen a hull "re-cored". It would be easier to build a new hull. I've seen delaminated patches repaired but never the whole hull. I don't think $20,000 would begin to cover that job.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

bobperry said:


> "but that all meant little to a friend owning a SW 42 surprised by the need to recore the hull. "
> 
> Really?
> 
> I'm not buying that. I'd have to see proof. I've been in this business 46 years and I have NEVER seen a hull "re-cored". It would be easier to build a new hull. I've seen delaminated patches repaired but never the whole hull. I don't think $20,000 would begin to cover that job.


I guess that's why we love boating...always something new to learn. The process involved removing the exterior layer with a peeling machine, cut out core material, let sit for 10 months to dry, new core, new new exterior layer, fair and paint. Funny, the dry out took so long the shop owner thought the job should have cost more too, so you picked that up correctly. Simply a blister job on steroids.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Fool:
No kidding. $20,000 was a bargain.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

If they took off the outer skin and removed the core, what was left that took 10 months to dry out? There's no way an inner skin could absorb that amount of water.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I'm having a wee struggle with the facts here. But I wasn't there so I will give the fool the benefit of the doubt. Love to see some pics.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

foam cores don't soak up water. the foam is closed cell foam. the skin can become delaminated from the foam creating some room for some water. balsa core maybe but not foam. where did they dry the hull in a rain storm? the fact that they did it for 20k means they really did not know what they were doing or they did not know what they were doing.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

I am just a guy who has done some deck recore work and the second you detach ONE skin the entire area turns into a floppy mess 

I had to be very careful even doing the foredeck to ensure the crown was correct before redoing the skin as if it is not correct it will be locked in place WRONG 

I have seen pictures of some NE yards doing large areas and it involved a special fixture one step below a mold to keep the boats shape and it was surly a 6 figure job


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

FWIW, the vessel in question spent almost a full year inside the heated shop, so rain was not much of an issue, and while I peeked in on her several times during that year, I never thought to take a picture.

I have no particular skin in this subject, other than that is is worthy of consideration, a recent boat purchase offer was for a sweet cored hull boat, which offer was withdrawn due to a survey problem not related to the hull...


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

The photo below is of re-coring a Canadian built boat that I've been told does not have balsa core below the water line (won't name it, don't want to start another war).

This is the port side stern. The lighter colour areas are the new balsa, the darker is original balsa. Note the very dark areas within the original balsa (rot) and the circled areas are voids from day one in the factory. Note the balsa comes to within about 8" of the centerline and if I can find it in my archives I'll post my photo of the starboard side where the balsa comes to within 18" of the centerline (not very consistent for a quality builder). As I've said before, done well this is a good construction method but I've seen too much to trust the builders. Not saying don't buy one, just be very sure about what you are buying because if much more than a small patch,repair costs on a cored bottom can be shocking. Each hull must be judged on its own merits.

The balsa was being replaced a few square feet at a time in order to keep the hull shape.


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

> I'm not buying that. I'd have to see proof. I've been in this business 46 years and I have NEVER seen a hull "re-cored". It would be easier to build a new hull. I've seen delaminated patches repaired but never the whole hull. I don't think $20,000 would begin to cover that job.


Bob, respectfully I would submit that I have never seen a man eaten by a crocidile but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I will admit that I am a luddite an therefore I am sure that I have bungled the link below but for those of you who are interested in this topic you might want to have a look. I don't know what they mean by "dramatic core repair but from the photos it looks pretty extensive.

Morris Yachts Core Repair - Professional BoatBuilder Magazine.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Cont:
I was probably wrong. Simple as that. Apparently there have been total core re-do's. I have never seen or heard of one in my area. I'm still learning too.

In thought one interesting item in that Morrios article wasa that the skeg hung rudder was being replaced by a spade.

I really would like to see the cost of that job. Did I miss it?


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

contrarian said:


> Bob, respectfully I would submit that I have never seen a man eaten by a crocidile but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I will admit that I am a luddite an therefore I am sure that I have bungled the link below but for those of you who are interested in this topic you might want to have a look. I don't know what they mean by "dramatic core repair but from the photos it looks pretty extensive.
> 
> Morris Yachts Core Repair - Professional BoatBuilder Magazine.


That will be 6 figures just in labour. IMHO the boat wasn't built right in the first place - all the kerfs should have been folded open and resinated before laying it in the mould - either that or bagging it to suck resin into the kerfs. That way each block of core is isolated with no water paths left open.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I'm thinking you'd have to REALLY like your boat to put that kind of money into a repair.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

BTW guys the 57' "yawl" was Bandera a Hinckley built in 1994 apparently before they infused the resin... It was nice of Cuyler and his crew to not publish that they were repairing a Hinckley, at Morris, for structural issues... 

A local sailmaker in here in Yarmouth, ME also had his C&C totally recored. It took all winter and was done in smaller sections than Morris did. They had to do this to retain hull shape. This was a C&C 37XL and had fairly thin skins thus the small sections at a time. It cost big money... The thing I remember most was the pungent smell of the rotting balsa as they cut into it and the brown goo came out...


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

Here is an blog of a boat that need a large repair due to bad workmanship.
http://www.channelpilot.info/prospero.php

This is a boat from 2006..


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

Now we've done it! LOL


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

What the hell kind of core is that?!
It looks like it was pieced together from scraps.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Yeah - if that's the repair work, the original "bad workmanship" must have been a sight to behold.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

bobperry said:


> What the hell kind of core is that?!
> It looks like it was pieced together from scraps.


Yes, the picture show what they found after taking off the outer skin.

I should have copied this text also


> The photo above shows the hull of Prospero with the outer GRP laminate removed. It wasn't difficult to pull the GRP off, since it had never been stuck on properly in the first place.


Close up


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

There is one hell of a Polish joke in there somewhere.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

A guy hired me to advise him on a boat he had bought on the east coast without a survey. He brought the boat to Seattle and wanted me to tell him how to go about fixing the delaminated deck. He had removed some of the inner skin. What came out was like wet coffee grounds. That's the best way I can describe it. I have no idea what it was when it went in the boat and I sure as hell couldn't figure out what was coming out. Everthing about this boat was a disaster. I told him to salvage the rig and the almost new engine and run like hell. The boat was severly out of trim, floating unusually high and I had serious doubts about how the boat was ballasted.


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