# Different take on the first boat



## drynoc (Jul 17, 2001)

While reading all these posts about people looking for their first boat, I always wonder if the posters end up doing the kind of sailing they thought they would. Many of them are searching for relatively deluxe boats as their first ownership experience assuming that their sailing life will be what they imagined. I know that my plans changed after I bought my boat, and would like to offer this:

Many people don't hold on to boats for very long anyway, so, while figuring out what you need, why not buy a boat designed for racing? They tend to be simpler inside, have a more intriguing rig, and a smaller price tag. They can be fun to learn to sail well on, can usually accomodate some short cruising, and give you time to decide what kind of sailing will actually be happening before spending the much bigger bucks on a more complicated boat. They tend to be set up to be sailed by a crew, as mine was, but minor adjustments can fix that. You can find them as stripped out hulls and including some minor sleeping arrangements, so they can be a way to get into fun sailing without spending the big bucks before you know how to spend them.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Drynoc-

Boats designed for racing are also generally sailed hard and put away wet. A racing boat generally has a much shorter lifespan than a cruising boat. It is often built more lightly than a cruising boat of the same size. Also, they aren't generally much cheaper than a coastal cruising boat of the same size... if they are cheaper at all. 

While, i agree that most people don't keep their first boat for long, it generally isn't that great an idea to get a boat that is probably going to have more maintenance problems than one that is going to be more reliable.


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## drynoc (Jul 17, 2001)

Sailingdog,

It goes without saying that you have to choose carefully, just as you would with any boat. And, having looked into the matter, I maintain that you can find them for less than a similarly aged cruising boat. You can also drive a hard bargain frequently, since there seems to be a smaller market for out of date racing boats. Even if it is a bit worn, it is still a good way for a neophyte to find out what he's going to do once he actually owns a boat without spending a lot of money on it. There's an excellent chance that family participation rates and other factors will change once the boat is in the water with the new owner's name on it and money going out the companionway.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

drynoc said:


> While reading all these posts about people looking for their first boat, I always wonder if the posters end up doing the kind of sailing they thought they would. Many of them are searching for relatively deluxe boats as their first ownership experience assuming that their sailing life will be what they imagined. I know that my plans changed after I bought my boat, and would like to offer this:
> 
> Many people don't hold on to boats for very long anyway, so, while figuring out what you need, why not buy a boat designed for racing? They tend to be simpler inside, have a more intriguing rig, and a smaller price tag. They can be fun to learn to sail well on, can usually accomodate some short cruising, and give you time to decide what kind of sailing will actually be happening before spending the much bigger bucks on a more complicated boat. They tend to be set up to be sailed by a crew, as mine was, but minor adjustments can fix that. You can find them as stripped out hulls and including some minor sleeping arrangements, so they can be a way to get into fun sailing without spending the big bucks before you know how to spend them.


A prospective boat buyer has to think things through at least in general terms of how they will use their boat. That includes considering where they will keep it, and how that will impact what boat works best for them.

When we were looking for our first boat, I fell in love with the Sabre 28 which is a great boat and would be an excellent starter boat for lots of people. In our case though, we'd decided that rather than keep our boat in the northern part of the bay closest to where we lived, we decided we liked the mid-bay area better as a get away. We knew going in that we'd be staying on the boat pretty much every time we used it. We eventually decided that a bit more room would be important to us. As it turns out, I've never been to my boat that I didn't spend at least one night usually two or more. Chosing a boat with a bit more room was the right choice for us.

In a case where the person lived within a hour of their boat and planned to mainly daysail it, only ocasionally staying aboard, your suggestion might be a good one. Learning to make a sailboat move as fast as you can is fun and challenging and the type of boat you suggest offers a lot to learn. Still, if you drove 3 hours or more to get to your boat and had to spend the night on it every time you saw it, you might start to dislike it pretty quick if it wasn't pretty comfortable.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Aren't racing boats complicated?

I haven't been on too many of them, but they tend to have things like running back stays, barber haulers, line adjustable genoa leads, baby stays, spinnaker winches and spinnaker gear, and things that make it complicated for a beginner. 

I think a basic, simple, cruiser / racer would be easier to sail, easier to survey, and easier to buy than a race boat.

Just mt $.02.

Barry


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## Hesper (May 4, 2006)

I chose the opposite tack to what Drynoc proposes. After learning to sail, I took six years to learn how to sail well - mostly by racing with some of the best people I could find. Then I thought long and hard about what kind of sailing I was likely to do. In my case, I realized it would be mostly daysailing with the promise of the occasional weekend cruise, at least as long as I'm still working.

I also recognized that my most frequent crew would be my wife, who really doesn't like sailing as much as lounging on the boat, so I'd essentially be single-handing. I learned from sailing on friends' boats with my wife that a large cockpit was essential to her well-being, so I decided it would have to have wheel-steering even though I'm partial to a tiller. Finally, I'm not real handy, so it would have to be in pretty good shape to start out - I can handle routine upkeep - so I was prepared to spend more.

The upshot is, I bought my first boat 6 1/2 years ago, my wife and I both love it enough that we resisted the temptation to sell during a financial rough patch, and I expect it will be my last boat, barring unforeseen disaster.


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## pmoyer (Oct 3, 2006)

Pure racing boats tend to have been used hard. They tend to have more complicated sheeting. They also tend to be laid out below in a much more spartan fashion than the family wishing to learn to sail will enjoy. If you go too minimalist, and the rest of the family hates it, you'll be single handing.

Also, a true racing boat generally has a different motion in chop, or sailing to weather, and people who are prone to seasickness will (painting with broad strokes) likely have a harder time on a racer.

Finally, there are maintenance tasks needed to keep a racing boat in trim that you don't do with a cruiser or a cruiser/racer. For example, a racing J/24 will have a faired hull and keel, slick painted, which you have to haul and wash down after every race. If you don't, you'll grow a lawn on the hull. If you put regular botom paint on her, you'll have a hard time selling her to someone who wants to race. As one data point, if my family had to use the hoist every time we wanted to go for a sail, I'd be (as mentioned above) singlehanding a lot.

Many yacht clubs, at least on the Chesapeake, allow you to join up and crew without actually owning a boat. If the family gets an inexpensive cruiser, but still wants to learn to race, that's a pretty good way to do it.

Bottom line, I don't think a racing boat is the best choice for a beginner, unless they want to race almost exclusively.

Cheers!


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Drynoc..

It really depends what is and what you are considering a race boat, what size you are considering, and how far in racing was it concieved and used. Was it small club races or World IMS Championship?? Is it a small or a larger boat.

I've seen hardcore raceboats that were used only for one year, because they are no longer competitive...but who is going to buy a paper thin 42' B&C that was almost bent in half?? How you are going to sail on a boat that was conceived to barely stay upright?? Whose keel was removed 15 times in a year, that has more lead in the head of the bowman than in the keel?? That needs at least 5 people to sail it.

How will a newcomer sail on a raceboat?? Race boats have sheet controls normally far appart because they're designed for more than one crew..is it good to have a newcomer doing this??? Most probably he will quit sailing as he will feel frustrated.. Try to have a newcomer sail on a weekend on a 470!!! Can only keep it upright if the sails are down and the crew sitting down.

Race boats are designed to be relatively and inherentely unstable, to help point, tack and have a more complicated rig..All these will be problematic to a newcomer. don't you agree?

Also, you will not get a decent race boat, like a 40.7, or a JOD 35 for less than their equivalent in a cruising mode new. In fact, some of the race boats I know, even after their "race shelf life" is done and gone, are still worth and sold for more than what they cost initially. Unless its a 1970's something...but then again...that would be just trouble...

So the question remains...what do you mean by race boat...and how race is race...

If you're looking at a smaller club racer..maybe you're right, but racing dinghies are not good for that, and I believe, that above 26 feet aren't good either for a newcomer.

Also...abuse...some boats that race...well...once they're done...they're done..

I know of a 2002 44.7 that has received over 200.000 in upgrades, just to be competitive...and was...(not anymore) now that investment is seen in the price tag...that boat is worth half million US. for that you could buy a new Catalina.
Now the boat is for sale, water enters thru all holes, has a carbon mast, that requires attention all the time, the furniture is all scratched and dented...has 10 sails (what are you gonna do with them?? half you can't even fold on your own)..its just trouble...its worth a lot for what it has, but its all useless...can't race, to tricky to sail alone, and its all beat up.


The cheap race boats you find, are cheap because they lost their edge, and can't go racing with them anymore, and no on e wants them..thus being cheap....that does not make them easy to sail by a newcomer, its the opposite.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I think the best starter boats are centreboard boats between 14 and 20 feet. Most grown-ups don't really want to get wet and aren't too concerned with learning a lot of the finer points of balance and sail trim. They want to get on, drink beer and float around for a while (perfectly honorable aspirations as far as I am concerned). SO - all the go-faster gear is a bit of a waste, because the boat needs pretty good electronics to be able to tell you what the result of tightening your backstay an inch is. And it's a PITA to have to put down your drink and put your shoes on to pull on something that isn't that important anyway....

So - my $.02 - get something that isn't too expensive, that has a few dings so you won't feel guilty about destroying a piece of maritime history - make sure there's a porta potti and a cooler, and no holes in the hull that aren't supposed to be there.

Go out and have all the accidents, groundings, near-misses, gear failures until you understand what you're doing wrong, then paint her up pretty and send her on her way to teach the next bunch.

_(Cause I have to admit that I find few things funnier than watching a moneyed newbie on a sled trying to figure out what rope he is supposed to pull next)_


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## tenuki (Feb 11, 2007)

I wouldn't want to take my family day sailing on a J24 in puget sound. I can get my racing fix crewing for free and learn just as much without having to own one or subject my family to a pounding.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

An important point has been made about the complexity of the rigging on a racing boat as compared to a cruising boat. Many racing boats have the following items in their rigging setup:

Mainsheet
Jib Sheets
Main Halyard
Jib Halyard
Spinnaker halyard
Spinnaker sheets and guys
Spinnaker pole downhaul
Spinnaker pole topping lift
Topping lift
Boom Vang
Cunningham
Running backstays
Barberhauls
Genoa car positioning lines
Mainsheet traveler positioning lines
Backstay adjuster
Reefing lines 
Roller Furling lines
Spinnaker sock control lines

Many cruising sailboats only have:

Mainsheet
Main Halyard
Jib Halyard
Jib Sheets
Topping lift
Reefing lines 
Roller Furling lines

Now, if you're a novice, and you have your family out with you... would you rather be dealing with a dozen lines or the almost thirty you might have on a boat rigged for racing. Add into that the fact that most racing boats are less stable designs and over-powered, you have a real good chance of convincing your family not to go sailing with you again.

When you learn in a lateen rigged sailing dinghy, you generally have two lines you worry about... the mainsail halyard, and the mainsail sheet. When you graduate to a sloop-rigged dinghy, it jumps to five lines to worry about on the small ones—two jib sheets, a main sheet and two halyards... and as you gain more experience, you generally end up with more lines and sail controls. Jumping into a racing boat as a novice is probably not a great idea.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

You forgot the outhaul, the mast tension pump, the intermediate shroud adjuster, the bowsprit adjuster, the spi tack adjuster


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

(This is response that I wrote for a different venue. If you actually have more experience than most people looking for a first boat today, I would sugget that you look at the higher performance designs below (noted with an *))

There is no more controversial a question than what is a perfect first boat. To begin with all boats are compromises. They are compromises between optimum sailing ability and the need for accommodations or shoal draft. If a boat gets wider it gets more stable up to a point but then it has less reserve stability to right itself if it goes over. If a boat is too wide and blunt, it has a lot of drag but lots of room down below. If a boat is too narrow it has less drag but if too narrow won't have much stability or room down below. Too much weight and the boat is slow and hard to handle, too little weight the boat is fast, fun, and easy to handle up to a point but at some point takes greater skills and athletic ability. 

If you ask a bunch of sailors about the ideal first boat, some will suggest a small daysailor or dinghy. If you are in good physical shape, don't mind being wet, live in an area where it is easy to launch and sail a dinghy, it provides a great platform, if not the best platform, to learn the basics quickly. 

Other sailors will recommend a traditional design because they are a bit harder to get into trouble with. Here I strongly disagree. I really think that the ideal beginner boat should be responsive enough that the neophyte can learn proper sail trim and boat handling. 

Over the years, I have taught a lot of people to sail and I firmly believe that to really learn to sail the boat should be light and responsive enough that you can experiment with sail trim and sailing angles and be able to see and feel the results. I find that for most adults the best beginner boat is a boat with a reasonably easily driven hull and a reasonably modern sloop rig and fin keel-spade underbody. I find that fractional rigged sloops are really the easiest to teach proper sail trim on. 

I think that late 1970's era, obsolete MORC racers make great teaching platforms. They had robust and easily maintainable rigs and hulls, they generally had better deck hardware than more modern designs or than cruising designs of that era. Race boats are generally better maintained and come with better sails than cruisers. The myth of the rode hard and put away wet is generally based on grand prix level boats that have little value once obsolete rather than the more common production racers. I do not recommend buying one in fully optimized race condition as that generally implies specialized maintenance and a higher purchase price.

Of course, the right choice clearly depends on the neophyte's own priorities. There are a lot people out on the water who really only understand the rudimentary aspects of sail trim and boat handling. They may only care to know enough to safely get out of a slip, sail about and get back home. Over time they may develop survival skills cruising skills and in my life I have met many a distance cruiser who really understands little beyond the basics of sail trim. If that level of skill works for them, then frankly who are any of us to judge them. We all come to sailing with our own goals and priorities and there is no one universally right amount of sailing knowledge required. 

But if the beginner really wants to learn the fine points of sailing then I would suggest sticking to a sloop, 30 feet or less in length, of light to moderate displacement and with a fin keel and spade rudder. Beginners sometimes think they prefer wheel steering, but on this size boats a tiller is far and away better both to learn on and to sail with. I generally recommend against centerboard trailer-sailors because (with few notable exceptions) the sailing ability of these boats really is not ideal for a good learning experience.

This first boat should be viewed as a learning tool to develop not just sailing skills but the skills necessary to own a larger more complex boat. This first boat will also help you develop a sense of what traits you want in your next boat. People tend to hold onto first boats for comparatively short periods of time. I therefore suggest focusing on older used production boats, as these can more readily be bought and sold with minimal cost or fuss.

Of course it is also important to figure out where you are going to sail, since different sailing venues favor different types of boats. 

Here is a list of some good basic boats that depending on the individual should make good first boats : (These should all be available for less than 25K, most have inboards which I think is preferable for cruising.)

-Albin Ballad (30 feet (1973-1978) $12-20K) 
These are reasonably fast and very well built and finished boats. They are not especially roomy but are good boats for short handing. They are beautiful looking boats. Most have a Volvo 10 hp diesel.

Albin Cumulus (28 feet-(early 1980's) $15-18K) 
These fractional rigged sloops would be an ideal first boat. They are reasonably fast (although 60 sec's a mile slower than my Laser 28) and easy to handle. They are nicely finished and typically have diesels. The interiors on these boats are not exactly plush but are reasonable for the kind of stuff we do here on the Chesapeake and on much of the Atlantic Coast. 

Beneteau First 30 or 30E (30 feet (early 1980's) $18-22K) 
These are a fairly modern design that should sail reasonably well. Not the most solid boats but fine for most venues. They had diesels and pretty good hardware. The 30E might be a fractional rig, I don't recall. 

-C&C 26

-C&C Corvette (31 feet (1967- 1970) $15-22K) and -C&C Redwing (30 footer ( 1965-1970) $12K- 20K)
Attractive and reasonably venerable designs; they are not especially fast but OK for the era. The Corvettes are moderately long keel/ centerboard boats and so are great for poking around the shallower areas of the Bay. The Redwings are fin keel/space rudder boats. They are really not competitive racers any longer. 

Cal 2-30 and Cal 2-29's (just under 30 feet (mid 1960-early 1970's) $10-18K)
These are reasonably built racer cruisers that have reasonable accommodations and pretty fair sailing ability. Like the Cal 25, the design is a dated and if the gear has not been updated will be less convenient than a more modern design. 

Catalina 27's: Venerable, common and cheap to buy. I have been sailing on these boats for quite a few years now. They are not especially well built and tend to blow up hardware but then again the Cat 27 that I sailed most on was a 15 year old boat that had been raced hard for much of its life.

Dehler 31 (31 feet (Mid to late 1980's) under $20K to mid-20K range)*
These are really neat little boats. They are not as fast as my Laser for example but are quite fast and look easy to sail and single-hand. They are fractional rigged and have a very nice interior plan. They would one of my favorites on this list for a first boat that can be both cruised and raced.

Dufour 2800 (28 feet (mid 1980's) mid $20K)
These are OK boats with a reasonably solid following. They are not my favorite but they would not be a bad boat if the price were right.

Farr 1020's (34 feet (Late 1980's)
These are really nice 34 footers that have a reasonably complete interior for more extended cruising and are quite fast and should be easy to handle. They are a little big to be ideal for most beginners.

Late 70's/ early 80's Hunter 30's, (30feet (15-20K)
These are under appreciated boats. We have had two in my family and again it is a matter of finding one that has been upgraded and is in good clean shape. My Dad raced his successfully in PHRF. They are roomy and surprisingly fast. 

Irwin Competition 30 (30 feet(mid 1970's) $12-16K) 
These were well rounded little boats that sailed well and had reasonably nice interiors. There was one that dominated its class in PHRF for years. Irwin's were not the most solidly built boats and so like the Hunter 30, you are looking for a well maintained example in reasonably good shape. 

J-28: 
These were part of J-boats 'cruising series' along with the J-34c, J-35c, J-37, and J-40. These are nice little boats and would be a good choice in a windier cruising ground. They have a nice layout and seemed to be nicely finished. 

J-30's (30 feet (Late 1970's on) $20-35K)*
These were originally built as 'hot' race boats and in their day they were really quite fast. Today they are seen as heavy and under canvassed. There are a number of model changes over the years and some resulted in a pretty nice cruising layout. These are good sailing boats but somewhat brutish to sail compared to some later high performance boats. Ergonomically they are far from my favorite boats, BUT they have a strong following. Their perennial one design status has held their value up quite nicely. They have diesel auxiliaries and are pretty easy to find. Be careful of problems with their coring as the Balsa cored and some of these boats have had a very tough life. 

Kirby 30: (30 feet (Late 1970's-early 1980's) $12 to $25K)*
These were really intended as race boats but they do have an interior that can be cruised for limited periods of time. They are one of my favorite boats from that era. (I owned a Kirby 25 which was a smaller version of the 30). 

Laser 28's (28 feet (Early to mid 1980's) $16to24K)*
What can I say, I love these boats. I have owned mine for 13 years and she has been great as a racer, daysailor, weekender and cruiser for periods up to 11 or so days. They were boats that were a decade ahead of their time. Many are Kevlar/Vinylester construction which is a really tough act to beat in terms of durability and light weight. They had a clever interior with a nice galley and head. Many have pressure water and a shower and a few have hot water heaters even. They have a nice little Buhk diesel. After 13 years I had no doubt that this was the right boat for me.


MG27 (27 foot (Mid 1980's) under $20K)
Nice little fractional rigged English boats. They seem to be well mannered and have an interior layout similar to my Laser 28. They have a diesel aux. They have tiny tanks that will need to get upgraded. 

Oday 28 & 30 (28 feet and 30 feet (late 1970's and early 1980's) $12-20K)
These were not the best built boats or the fastest boats in their day but are common and sail reasonably well.

1970's vintage Tartan 30's, (30 feet (1970's) under $20K)
These are my favorite masthead sloops of that era. They are good all around boats. Most still atomic 4's but you can find them with diesels. 

Tartan 26's: Quite rare little boats. They are nice to sail and have reasonably comfortable interiors.

(Other Tartans to look for are the Tartan Piper and Tartan 31 but these are more expensive boats) 

Pearson 26
These are simple, readily available keel boats. They offer reasonable build quality, decent sailing ability and a cheap price. 

70's vintage Pearson 30's (Not Flyers)*
These are very venerable racer/cruisers on the Chesapeake. They have an active one-design class and are also good boats for cruising the Bay. Of course they come in all kinds of condition from really well maintained and up graded with good racing hardware and a diesel engine to stripped and trashed. You can buy them from under $10K (but you would not want any in that price range) to something approaching $20K. You should find good boats in the high teens.

Pearson Flyers: (30(late 1970's early 1980's) $12-20K)*
These were intended as competition to the J-30. They were reasonably good boats pretty much on a par with the J-30 in many ways. They have not done as well in racing since they do not have a one design class to help perfect the Breed. 

Ranger 29 (29 (early 1970's) 10-18K) 
These are good sailing and nice cruising little boats. They should be adequate for club racing and are certainly good boats. They were not the best built boats and so you should be looking for a clean and updated version. Still they offer a lot of bang for the buck. 

Sabre 28 (28 feet (1971 to 1986) $12-30K)
They have a reasonably high quality build, and are still supported by factory, with over 500 made The S-28 is one of the few boats which meets the ORC capsize screen under 30 feet. Nice teak interior and somewhat classic lines.

Shockwave (also called Schockwave 30, or Wavelength 30 )*
Pretty stripped out racers but really neat boats. They are quite fast and should be a lot of fun to own. They did have a sort of high tech interior that lacked elegance but worked reasonably well. 

Wylie 28 and Wylie 30 (28 and 30 respectively(late 1970's to early 1980's) 10-15K)
These are neat little boats that sail well and are really pretty interesting. The few that I have seen have good hardware and have had simple but workable interiors. They came in fractional and masthead rig versions. There was a masthead version that did quite well on the Bay. There was a one design version called a Hawkfarm. They never caught on the Chesapeake but are still raced in S.F. Bay.


If you want some thing more traditional 
Alberg 30's
C&C Redwings and Corvettes
Pearson Coasters, and Wanderer's 


You will find that these traditional boats have less room and will have older equipment but they should be less money and may be better sailing boats than some of the newer boats on the market today. 

Jeff


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Giu-

yup... kinda the point I was trying to make... 

JeffH-

Nice post... I'd add the Cape Dory 25, 28, the Pearson Ariel, Vanguard, and Triton to the more traditional list though.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Hesper said:


> I chose the opposite tack to what Drynoc proposes. After learning to sail, I took six years to learn how to sail well - mostly by racing with some of the best people I could find.


I did it back to front: I bought a 33 foot cruiser-racer, and then went racing as crew on a Newport 27 for five years, as did, to a lesser extent, my wife. Instead of watching our own halyards part and sails rip, we saw it on other boats, as racing (for better or for worse) tells you the limits of a boat and the limits of her crew.

We learned a great deal about heavy-weather tactics, laying the line, rapid tacks and where to find the puffs that would keep the boat creeping along when others were slatting and still.

We brought that knowledge to our own boat, which, while we didn't overload it, we kept pretty stripped out so that we could "camp" with an emphasis on sailing performance without the cost. This meant not obsessing over the state of the bottom, and having similarly sized used racing sails recut for our boat (a two-year old composite No. 1 for $200 is better than a 20-year-old Dacron No. 1 that's held together with patches!). Then, because we HAD the racing experience, we would push our good old boat a bit further and faster than typical cruisers, and we kept up the good race habits (ready about? Ready! Helms alee!, etc.) of helming and trimming in order to "cruise" in a way that got the most out of the boat. It has also encouraged us to drive the boat in big air, and in a blow, a normally packed cruising ground thins out very quickly after 18-20 knots or over a metre in wave height. To us, that's when the boat finally starts showing off!

So while I don't necessarily endorse getting a race boat as a first boat, I think if you get an OLD "cruiser/racer" like an Express or a Mirage or some other club/PHRF-type contender, you can then race on the "committed" race boats in your area or club, and this is the royal road to getting the most out of your old boat.

In my view, a lot of cruisers (not the majority, but quite a few) are happy to cruise about without trimming the sails or tensioning the stays more than barely adequately, because they've never raced and never learned much beyond the basics. This is a shame, because they frequently have boats that can work well to weather and can really lay down in some wind.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Giulietta said:


> You forgot the outhaul, the mast tension pump, the intermediate shroud adjuster, the bowsprit adjuster, the spi tack adjuster


What about downhauls? I love downhauls on certain hanked-on jibs. And preventers...can't forget them!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Valiente-

Preventers aren't generally rigged on racing boats, because they tend to interfere with tacking and gybing. Downhauls.... not really all that common in the age of roller furling, but the were very common on most of the boats I've seen that raced with hanked on sails. The faster you can switch sails, the better off you usually were.


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## drynoc (Jul 17, 2001)

It's not necessary to race the race boat, just as it is not necessary to use all of the gear that came on it right away. My running backs proved to be too much trouble for a novice (I'll get back to them later) so I disconnected them and attached them to the mast. I enjoy the nearly new mylar/kevlar sails that came with it since they are particularly valuable in the light air in my area, and I'm learning to use the poles and other acoutrements. I'm also not spending any sailing time fixing the hot water, the shower, or the oven. I can sleep nine in a pinch, anchor out when in the mood, and learn the intricacies of sailing at my own pace. And I still haven't invested that much money.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

drynoc-

Disconnecting running backstays, without understanding what their function is could possibly result in damage to the mast and rigging. Most boats that have running backstays, usually have them for a reason. Getting a boat and choosing not to use parts of it properly is a really difficult decision to make if you don't know what you are doing. A novice sailor would probably have trouble determining which parts of the running and standing rigging were safe to ignore, and which were critical to keeping the mast up and the boat moving safely.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I don't think you're doing it the "wrong way" drynoc, just that it may not be the easiest way. (Most) racing boats do not have a lot of superfluous things like hot water and showers, etc. hence the owner doesn't have to spend a lot of time maintaining them. But you may be surprised to find out that most of the owners who have these systems don't have to spend a lot of time maintaining them either.

You read a lot about various problems that people are having with them on sites such as this, but keep in mind that the problems tend to occur every ten or fifteen years, much as they do in a house or condo. If the equipment was that unreliable, it would not continue to sell.

You also get a very "do-it-yourself" type of person in these forums. I would venture to say that a good 75% of the sailing population hires service people to deal with the issues.

I'm a little worried about your comment regarding the running backstays...you still have a central backstay on your mast don't you ?


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## Insails (Sep 6, 2006)

Ok..I have still not bought my boat..I am still concidering the Alberg 30..
My choice has always been to cruise..I wont be in any hurry to go anywhere..
I still plan on day sailing by myself and taking short cruises along the gulf for 3 days a week when my wife and I are both off...
I also plan to take atleast two 2 week cruises a year...
I still want a boat for day sailing and for blue water..
I learned to sail on a 67 foot schooner that weighed 67 tons..but it took 4 to sail her and small craft warnings...LOL
So after two cruises from The Gulf coast to Newfoundland blue water is in my blood..
will I settle for less boat than I want?...I doupt it..
Will I get more boat than I need? ..I doupt it..
I do want to sail but I also know what I want to sail on..
Even though I learned on a wheel and a large Schooner, I still want a sloop and I don't care if she has a tiller or a wheel)...I just want to cruise


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Drynoc-

BTW, IIRC there are some boats that have running backstays don't have any other support for the mast, and rely on the running backs to help keep the mast where it belongs. 


Insails-

While the Alberg 30 is one of my favorite monohulls, there are plenty of decent boats that can do what you're looking for, which have been mentioned on dozens of threads previously, and several of which Cam and I have posted above.


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## Insails (Sep 6, 2006)

Thanks sailingdog,and I am in no hurry and have many options as it seems to be a buyers market...I like alberg 30s, I like the Cape dory 27 and 28 footers..I agree many boats will fit my needs if rigged right even the Catalina 27...I also like some of the older islanders and Pearsons..I try to read more everyday and have about memorized the boat reviews here..I just want to thank all for their imput and after I find my boat ,I will need you guys even more because you all have the maintnance skills I lack...Great to have guys like you,cam,paul,CD,Gui and so many more..I look forward to future imput from you all because I know it will be sound advise you can't put a dollar tag on


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

drynoc-
In addition to what sailingdog said, I would caution you that most real racing boats are "purpose built" meaning they are built for a specific purpose, including a specific range of wind and sea conditions. I once had the pleasure to visit Drum New Zealand in the US and when I asked if they had sailed it over, the crew laughed and said I had to be kidding--it could never take offshore weather, the rigging would snap like kindling.
Similarly, you'll find that most race boats built with running backstays are simply not designed to keep the rigging up without them. In light to moderate winds, or with reefed sails, you may be fine. But unless you have a rigger go over the entire rig (shrouds, stays, spreaders) you may find the whole thing coming down suddenly one day. 
You're right, you don't have to use all the fancy stuff, vangs and tweaks and cunninghams and all the trim lines. But the rigging is NOT designed to hold up the mast without those backstays. For short-handing, you can often have them rigged with shock cords and run back to the helm so they are easier to short-hand. Again, a rigger can show you how to set this up.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Valiente-
> 
> Preventers aren't generally rigged on racing boats, because they tend to interfere with tacking and gybing.


It was a crash gybing death during a race that convinced me to make up preventers (at least forward to the toe rail, not the more effective boom-end to bow and back arrangement) in the first place.

I mentioned it in the context of someone buying a superannuated racer to be used as a learning platform or even as a basic cruiser, and therefore not necessarily averse to safety elements that are seen as impediments while racing.

But maybe shouldn't be.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Valiente said:


> It was a crash gybing death during a race that convinced me to make up preventers (at least forward to the toe rail, not the more effective boom-end to bow and back arrangement) in the first place.
> 
> I mentioned it in the context of someone buying a superannuated racer to be used as a learning platform or even as a basic cruiser, and therefore not necessarily averse to safety elements that are seen as impediments while racing.
> 
> But maybe shouldn't be.


Valiente-

A preventer being used with out proper knowledge of how to use it can be just as dangerous as not using one. If the boat gybes, and the preventer line isn't release, it can cause the boat to get "pinned down" by the mainsail. While this may not be as dangerous as an uncontrolled boom swinging across the boat, it can cause its own share of problems, including heeling the boat over enough to have crew fall off. It also requires someone to go forward to release and re-attach the preventer lines each time you gybe-not an ideal situation for novice sailors.


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Some masts do not need runing backstays for stifness, just for mast shape.

The GibSea 421 that belongs to a friend had them, and he removed them..with that boat he sailed from poortugal to Cuba and back...without them.

So...on some boats it has not structural effect whatsoever, serves just as "mast bending device".

Should ask whoever made the mast if it is acceptable to move.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Valiente-
> 
> A preventer being used with out proper knowledge of how to use it can be just as dangerous as not using one. If the boat gybes, and the preventer line isn't release, it can cause the boat to get "pinned down" by the mainsail. While this may not be as dangerous as an uncontrolled boom swinging across the boat, it can cause its own share of problems, including heeling the boat over enough to have crew fall off. It also requires someone to go forward to release and re-attach the preventer lines each time you gybe-not an ideal situation for novice sailors.


That's why I have my non-standard ones rigged on both sides. It's somewhat like a boom brake or twinned vangs, I suppose, but with the cams down on deck running aft. The blue and white is starboard (they were out of green and white that day!) and the red and white is port. They can be used under tension as a replacement for the main sheet when gybing normally.

I'm aware that there are large stresses at play here and I wouldn't use this set-up above 25 knots or so, but I find it's simplified my single-handing.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Having yet to purchase my first boat, (going to wait until the transfer comes in) I do already know what I am looking for and what I am going to do with it. Primarily cruising, Daysailing, weekend trips with a weeklong adventure 2-3 times a year. Fishing for fun and lots of diving. My competitive days behind me, I have little to prove and just want to enjoy the water, the sun and the serenity of the day. I have been looking at older Bristols and find that with little modification they could certainly handle what I am wanting to accomplish. Maybe I will "race" friends to the best dive Mooring or something along those lines. All that being said, comfort above and below, combined with ease of handling is primary. We are planning on going to the Offshore Sailing schools for their fast track to cruising. Then additional experience on a friends Columbia 34, until the time comes to buy our own. The KISS system is envoked heavily IMO. I don't care to have more rigging than I really need. Just want to have fun. What do you all think?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I'd love to be able to use my sailboat for diving so if you've thought it through and have a good way to do it, I'd like to know.

I never thought that a sailboat made a very good dive boat. It would probably be ok for once in a while, but not as a primary means of going diving. Gel coat damage seems inevitable from tanks and weights. The freeboard on my boat is too high. The newer designs with walk through transoms may be better.

The way I look at it, when the wind is down, I can go diving and when it's windy and rough weather for diving, I can be out on my sailboat.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I just posted something on the racing thread that may apply to this topic. It's about a beginners experiance with a j/24...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

CapnHand said:


> I'd love to be able to use my sailboat for diving so if you've thought it through and have a good way to do it, I'd like to know.
> 
> I never thought that a sailboat made a very good dive boat. It would probably be ok for once in a while, but not as a primary means of going diving. Gel coat damage seems inevitable from tanks and weights. The freeboard on my boat is too high. The newer designs with walk through transoms may be better.
> 
> The way I look at it, when the wind is down, I can go diving and when it's windy and rough weather for diving, I can be out on my sailboat.


One couple I know that has the same boat as me, bought it for use as a scuba diving mothership. They told me, one of the major factors in purchasing the boat was the fact that they can drop their scuba tanks onto the amas and then climb out of the water unencumbered by the weight and bulk of the tanks.

I would have to agree that a standard monohull sailboat is generally a lousy scuba diving platform... but multihulls seem to work quite well.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Gel coat damage seems inevitable from tanks and weights."
Happens on any fiberglass motor craft as well. Some ways to minimize it:
Doff your tank and lead before boarding, clip it onto a line. After you board, haul them up carefully, or use the boom or a davit to hoist them aboard without having to work so hard. 
Then when you drop them--don't drop them on deck. Use a rubber mat or some rubber tiling (i.e. "Dry Mat" plastic lattice deck tiles, or a rubber strip floor mat) when you put them on deck, and they should be chocked or bungeed anyway so they can't slip around.

A little work, sure, but the same think you have to do with any fiberglass boat if you don't want to chip it up. Unless you've got a bare metal work boat...dive gear is going to bang things up!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The couple did line the ama deck with rubber matting, to protect the fiberglass decking. 

Some of the best SCUBA tank mounts I've seen were made from Schedule 80 PVC pipe, which is what they had on their boat.


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## drynoc (Jul 17, 2001)

*Backstays*

Thanks for the concern all, but my boat also has an adjustable permanent backstay, so the mast is well supported without the running backs. It was a very experienced sailor who suggested to me that I get them out of the way temporarily while I learned more about sailing, and the rigger who stepped the mast said they weren't necessary (while admiring the fact that I had them). Also, I sail on the Potomac River, where winds are light.


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