# We're getting hosed



## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

So what else is new? Of course it's a running joke among boat owners-the inflated cost for items to maintain and repair our boats. While we might get a sense that the retails/manufacturers are giving us the big willy, we also know that the materials have to be top notch, the environment they have to perform in is unforgiving, and production numbers are low, all of which drives up prices. I have no argument about this; it's the reality of boat ownership. 
And then something comes along that shows some boys out there are screwing their customers, and yet we all lap it up with a smile.
I wonder why more hell isn't being raised? Maybe we're all rich or something.

But here's one example. The auxiliary in my CS36T is a 1980 Westerbeke diesel. ALthough I SHOULD say it's a British Leyland 1.5 litre tractor diesel marinized by Westerbeke. I've done some digging, and am surprised at the non-westerbeke parts I've been able to find.

Remember, the only parts that are westerbeke on this engine are the heat exchangers and manifold.

Complete top end gasket set for the BL 1.5 is $60.00 which includes shipping from the UK. I've been told that Westerbeke wants more than $300.00 for the head gasket alone. BL fresh water pump, $80.00. Westerbeke >$700.00. I just bought a set of four OEM pistons complete with rings for $150.00. I can only imagine what westerbeke would charge.
One guy priced out full rebuild parts at >$6,000.00 from Westerbeke. I'm sure I could get all the BL parts under $500.00.

The parts are all OEM, yet Westerbeke charges up to 10X the "normal" retail price for the same part. Why? because it's a "boat part". Because we will pay it.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Well, it is a pretty red color. That is worth something.

- CD


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## Sasha_V (Feb 28, 2004)

Which is why, when my boat got completely stripped out and I thought, might as well have the Yanmar facelifted while it is out....I loaded it onto a trailer and took it over to our local friendly diesel mechanic and not a marine place. He set it up on a bench and ran cooling hoses to it. did a full bench rebuild...$450, thank you very much!

Quote from the yacht mechanics was around $3500, plus extras, and they would probably not be able to even look at it for two months because they were busy.

Think of it as a tax levied on the foolish and those lacking initiative and cunning.

Sasha


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

Yes. This is bullsh_t. I'm officially POed. Why can't we find an importer,some diesel place in the US., who can / will import stuff without screwing us all (and keep 20% as a markup, something fair, as a tip?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

We have the "Westerbeke" 12.5 generator, circa 1985. 5,800 hrs on it and still runs perfect. When we got the boat 4 years ago I tore off all the cooling parts, hoses, manifold, intercooler, thermostat housing blah blah. I got my first shock/clue on the costs of parts when I priced just the thermostat and a couple of molded water hoses. And it got a lot worst as it went. I researched on the Inter-Gore and then ordered stuff from Coast Auto---saved me big bucks. I did all of the labor myself which was actually enjoyable, plus it gave me a chance to figure her out. The best part was when she was put all back together with her shiny new coat of Rustoleum Crimson Red.

_Bellisima!.............._


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Agreed.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Marine silicone = $12-17.00 home center, same stuff = $3-5.00
5200 at Marine store about $17.00 Home Depot actually sells it about 7.00 I think, last yr I got some. 

speaking of hose??? Ever compare "Marine" rubber hose to automotive? 

Am I the only person that has noticed "other" sources for stainless bolts, screws etc. seem to be stronger than those from marine stores? Last yr I needed a new strainer for the head.. the $25.00 one is not in stock. but the Big Bronze one was. almost $200.00 box coverd in dust LOL special order again LOL Oh.. the big mystery on how bronze stuff is becoming "special order"? Bronze = gold 


Did anyone bend over and pick up the soap by the door of the Marine store? LOL. (I didn't say that... blush)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Here's an example. I was thinking of getting a new starter for my Universal 5411 engine. The Universal 5411 is a marinized Kubota Z500.

Universal Starter $1,143.69 (Torresen Marine)
API Aftermarket Starter $261.80 (Torresen Marine)
Kubota Starter $99.95


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## Zanshin (Aug 27, 2006)

This is even worse than aviation markups - one reason I ensured my racing glider is "experimental" - I can use normal parts and also do some work myself instead of hiring an A&E and paying outrageous prices for 'certified' hardware.


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## Sasha_V (Feb 28, 2004)

Or something small and simple...

316 stainless bolts about 30% of DISCOUNT marine store price when bought at my local fastener supply place (bigger range too)

Monel pop rivets. DISCOUNT marine store charges $5.80 for bag of 6 or 8...Local fastener place charges $43 per 1000...but you can buy just one or two of them if you want.

low-loss plated antenna cable. 14 meters at chandlery $75....At Radio Parts $17.50 (Same product, same brand, same part number)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Umm... some things are worth getting the marine versions of...others not so much. For instance, marine fuel hose is fire resistant.... standard automotive fuel hose isn't. 

Much the same thing happens in many other industries... in the IT field, Mac owners are often screwed over.... if you price the same peripheral, like an external hard drive, in the Mac section of a computer store, it will often be a bit more expensive than the non-Mac equivalent.


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

CapnHand said:


> Here's an example. I was thinking of getting a new starter for my Universal 5411 engine. The Universal 5411 is a marinized Kubota Z500.
> 
> Universal Starter $1,143.69 (Torresen Marine)
> API Aftermarket Starter $261.80 (Torresen Marine)
> Kubota Starter $99.95


Capn, how did you find that out? I have a universal M3-20 and would love to find its tractor equivalent.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Gimme a minute


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## pegasus1457 (Apr 14, 2002)

*me too*



bestfriend said:


> Capn, how did you find that out? I have a universal M3-20 and would love to find its tractor equivalent.


Ditto for the Universal M4-30


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

BF, Pegasus

M15/5411 Z-500
M18 Z-600
M25 D-850
M25XP D-950 
M3-20 D640
M30 D-1101
Kubota parts online: http://www.tractorsmart.com


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## bestfriend (Sep 26, 2006)

Thats awesome Capn, I hope I can repay the favor someday. I admire your internet skills, I have been searching too.
Best

sorry to get off topic Hoffa.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Here's the rest along with some engine specs.


5411 (M15)Z-500​77-82​ 5416 (M20)​​Z-751​76-82​ 5421 (M25)​​D-850​78-81​ 5424 (M30)​​D-1101​77-83​ 5432 (M40)​​V-1501​78-82​ 5444 (M50)​​V-1902​80-82​ M-12​​Z-400​83-88​ M2-12​​Z-430​87-90​ M-15​​Z-500​82-83​ M-18​​Z-600​83-88​ M-20​​Z-751​82-83​ M3-20(A)​​D-640​88-​ M-25​​D-850​81-86​ M-25XP(A)​​D-950​86-​ M-30​​D-1101&1102​83-87​ M4-30(A)​​Y-850​88-​ M-35​​V-1200​87-​ M-40​​V-1502​82-​ M-50(A)​​V-1902​82-​ M3-20B​​​​​M-25XPB​​​Information​​M-35B​​​Not​​M-40B​​​Complete​​M-50B​​​​ 
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3100​
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68​
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24​
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3​
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425​
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400​
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52​
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24​
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4​
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270​
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470​
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75.5​
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30​
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4​
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335​
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280​
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91​
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32​
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4​
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545​
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360​
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115​
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44​
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4​
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545​
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520​
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43.8​
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3​
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61.2​
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26​
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3​
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295​
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81.47​
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35​
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4​
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91.41​
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37.5​
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4​
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113.32​
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42​
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4​
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529​
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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

If you do not know your product you takes what you's get's!

For instance: Once upon a time I needed a relatively rare Mercedes-Benz piston for a M-B that had a production run of only 7000, very few of which made it to the US. The US version had a lower compression rating and I had a European model to boot. The friendly people had the M-B warehouse, there's one on each coast, informed me that while they did not stock such pistons they would be happy to order me one on their regular stocking order, and I would have it in hand in ten months for the nominal sum of $1100 at current exchange rates. Desiring to drive to Michigan from New York on eight cylinders versus seven, and further desiring to make the trip within the next two weeks, this was decidely inconvenient. Not to mention that the cost was approximately ten percent of what I'd paid for the whole car, and for that sum I could have a full set custom cast out of my material of choice!

Upon conferring with a few friends in the foreign car market in NY I was advised that perhaps I'd best contact Mahle, the piston manufacturer. Lo and behold I found that Mahle has a corporate office in Chicago and Dieter turned me over to his secretary Hildy who called me back the next morning, a Thursday, to inform me that I had a very expensive piston. Hildy calculated the exchange rate and came up with $102 and found it a seat on the Concorde for an additional $58. Tuesday morning DHL handed the little baby (well, not so little-it had a 4" diameter!) to me at 9:50am and I departed for Michigan Wednesday night.

The lesson learned was to talk with everybody you can. Eventually you will talk with somebody who knows somebody within the company. (btw, Dieter and Hildy did not ask for, but received, a rather nice single malt Scotch for their troubles) That person's phone number is priceless. Five minutes conversation with him results in five minutes conversation with his friend who knows something about what you need. Those conversations do not happen through the official company switchboard.

To do any of this, you have to know your product and the supplier of the component parts of your product. A casual example of this are the Ridgid power tools you see at Home Depot. Ridgid does not make the majority of those tools, they're branded for Ridgid by somebody else. (I suspect Makita is a supplier) Research the company that makes your product. Find out what companies they've bought out (it might have been somebody else's product first) and find out who their suppliers are. Find out what the suppliers business is, you may not obviously know. If you find out that your engine manufacturer has a supplier that does tubing bending you've probably found the source of your engine's intake and exhaust manifolds. You'll probably find a part number that they will recognize on the manifold. When you call and they ask you what kind of engine it's on, you ask them what engines it went on. And that's how you find out that maybe your neighbor's tractor has the same manifold as your boat motor.

Alternators are an easy thing to do this with also. I'm incorrectly convinced that there are really only six alternator's in the whole world, three of which are made by Mitsubishi. Every time I need an alternator I go to this little shop out in the country, they operate out of a glorified shed, and they always have my alternator on the shelf. And every time I find that my alternator goes in a bunch of things I never imagined, like a backhoe or something. Very few companies make an entire product themselves any more, and if you know your product and it's component suppliers you can find things at substantial savings. It does take some time but, by talking to the people you meet along the way, you find out about other components that currently might not interest you-but might later.

Happy hunting!


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

*Great Thread*

We have to look 4 ways to save money. If U look up kubota engines and go to farm.construction etc. instead of marine U will be surprised at what U can find. Like 20 inch by 20 inch by 15 inch 2 cylinder diesel 15 hp, 140 pounds.Yes we would have to adapt some cooling and exhaust systems but I'm sure we could figure that out. They have 4 example an engine $ 2700 9.5 hp diesel electric start 3600 max rpm air and oil cooled. NO WATER PUMPS,THRU HULLS ETC. We could use it 4 main motor or drive a couple of 90 - 130 amp alternators and have lots of battery charging power and by inverter 120 also. Lots of possibilities we just have to think about what we could do with all this information and equipment that is readily available . We could save alot of money and we are all cheap b----s anyway , right.


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

we had a couple of air cooled diesel tractor when I was a kid. Deutz. Great product, worked well. The airflow volume was tremendous! so have to get that worked out. Some Listers were air cooled as well.

I'm about as much of a skin-flint as you can find. Tractor supply houses like central tractor or tractor supply are good for guages, hoses, belts, some ignition parts, wire rope, lights, screws, bolts... ignition switch from moyer? 39.00, from tractor supply, 12.99

oh, all kinds of stuff... and riding crops to keep surly crew members in line too. 

Perkins parts? Get friendly with your local Ford/NewHolland farm-industrial dealer. Most Ford farm diesel tractors in the 60's, 70's and 80's had Perkins as powerplants. In a pinch, try a Massey-Ferguson dealer. 

Alternator or starter shot? God forbid you go to balmor or API, or someplace nuts like that. Almost every city has a few "auto-electric" repair shops. These guys are men among boys. I don't care if its a motorola, leece-neville, prestolite, delco, or kamakazi, they've got the stuff to fix you up. And it won't cost you a down payment on that condo in Bali either.Starter solenoid from moyer, 53.00, from NAPA, 9.79


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

So, I've got an m3-20. apparently, I need a new lift (fuel) pump and a heat exchanger. Anybody have thoughts?

btw, props to the Captain for the treasures in the thread. And the thread.


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## jobark (Jul 19, 2004)

Is there a location - web based - that provides the marine engine's original manufacturer make and model before it was marinized?


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Westerbeke full pump, 154.00 - 
8 weeks for a tech - and the engine was 2 weeks old (and I'd have had to wait for authorization before the 8 weeks started if I wanted them to pay for the warrantied repair).
AutoZone 25 gph 12v pump fitting in the exact same place - 29.95, time to replace, 30 minutes.

ZEPHYR Fuel polisher 575 - 
piece of plywood, another autozone pump, filters, hoses and brass fittings (marine grade, hardware store) -125.

Pays to look around
Props to CapnHand well deserved.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

I have a Westerbeke W-52 I'm having "looked at" by a non-marine diesel rebuilder this winter. Any idea if there's a tractor/non-marine equivalent? (I have been led to consider that it's a marinized Mazda 2.5 litre block).

As I will be replacing the FW pump, the heat exchanger and various other bits and pieces (if the originals work, they become the "spares"), I would LOVE to avoid buying Gouge-o-Rama priced "official" stuff, because it's just a pure rip-off.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

This is a GREAT thread...

Lots of cross reference info on Westerbreak, and some on Universal. How about (dare I say this) Yanmar? Is all their stuff unique to Yanmar?


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## RXBOT (Sep 7, 2007)

*4 Valiente*

Don,t think it's related to a mazda.Your engine is134.8 cubic inches I believe.Thats = 2209 cubic centimeters,a far cry from 2and1/2 litres. Interesting though mazda does make a diesel 2.5 litre licenced to perkins.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

Could sailnet put together a database? Perhaps it has to be set up where we input the info. Similar to active captain.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

RXBOT said:


> Don,t think it's related to a mazda.Your engine is134.8 cubic inches I believe.Thats = 2209 cubic centimeters,a far cry from 2and1/2 litres. Interesting though mazda does make a diesel 2.5 litre licenced to perkins.


2209 cc is 2209 ml, which is 2.2 litres. Not such a far cry.

I'll check out Mazda.


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

What's really helped is the web. Research is so much easier. I also think talking to the diesel rebuild boys would be a good source to find out who makes the engine in your boat. Marine rebuilders go to marine suppliers, but Fuel Injection places/truck diesel rebuilders don't bother, and they'll have source lists for parts.

I would like to find out the source for the exchangers that Westerbeke uses.

As for alternators, forget the marinised ones (unless you are using a gas engine). One engineer claims that the only real difference from the auto ones is a light epoxy coating on the windings to reduce corrosion. I have a Ford 100 amp truck alternator on my engine that I bought for $230.00, and I paid way too much (but we were on an island at the time and I knew I'd be gouged). Replacement diodes are like 20 bucks, a few dollars for brushes.

BTW, as for lift pumps, I found one for this engine for about $25.00! and I just sourced new injectors for $49.00 each, which is a great price as they are specific to this ONE engine.


As for the westerbeke W30, the block was used in the following vehicles:

BMC - NEWAGE (MARINE) 1.5 1489cc

NUFFIELD TRACTOR 4/25 & 154 1.5 1968-80

LEYLAND TRACTOR 154 Eng 15T 1968-80 

AUSTIN A60 1.5 1962-69 
MORRIS OXFORD 1.5 1962-71 
MORRIS ITAL & MARINA 1.5 1974-84
AUSTIN/MORRIS JB,J2 & J4 Vans 1.5 1961-74
AUSTIN MORRIS JU-250 1.6 1967-74

Might be hard sourcing the car parts, but people hang onto tractors. There are several outfits that still handle these parts, even in the US.


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

eherlihy said:


> This is a GREAT thread...
> 
> Lots of cross reference info on Westerbreak, and some on Universal. How about (dare I say this) Yanmar? Is all their stuff unique to Yanmar?


Yanmar is an engine manufacturer, but that doesn't mean that they don't outsource many of their parts.


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

Hey, guys.

I'm all for bitching, as a creative in advertising, I actually get paid for it, but I'd love to see if we could convert this energy from potential (e.g., bitching) to kinetic (e.g., affecting change).

For example: since this doesn't conflict with the sailnet store, could we create a permanent thread, with EDITED links---all meat, no potatoes--with sources for engine parts, information on each engine's ancestry, whatever?

Second, how about (and this is more ambitious), finding a terrific marine mechanic who wants a slew more business, and is willing to break with tradition (e.g., screwing us with these usurious parts' charges).

Third, how about figuring out a way to pressure the industry, or at least, continue the Norma Rae movement further? I've got a letter to the editor of Practical Sailor in the works. Any other ideas?

[btw, I might have the right mechanic. This guy in Alameda (where I live) is great. He might play ball]

Tom


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

I had similar thoughts, and the only apprehension I've had is the work involved. My little contribution took hours of research, and while I know of at least two gents that have already saved lots of money because of this, the W30 is probably a little obscure as it was discontinued in 1980.

Having some folks dig up info on engines past and present for the models out there is an enormous task, and it is better to have folks research their own engine and publish the results here as they come up. An open sticky would help, or a downloadable database.

One could write a guide book on this although it would never pay them enough for the research hours invested.

Pressuring industry? I wonder if there's too much $$$ out there and most people willing to pay the going rate. I post on the CS forum, and I appear to be the first guy who's bothered to research alternative parts sources for the CS 36T. Other folks have thrown $20-$30,000 at repowering so it seems to not concern many people. In fact, no one has even responded online to all my alternative parts posts!

And a for alternative mechanics,any none-marine mechanic can fix your diesel cheaper, but you might have to tell him what block you have so he doesn't buy parts from the distributor instead of the manufacturer.

Even better, I think people should learn to do it themselves. If you can maintain your own boat, you can repair most things on your diesel.


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## hertfordnc (Sep 10, 2007)

Hoffa,

I think there are plenty of people who have to consider the cost of things on their boats. I think we are reluctant to admit we can't afford something. THere is perhaps a culture (there's that word again) that pressures us into thinking we are not good sailors or we are not safe or not good stewards of our boats if we have can't afford what the marina is selling at the price the marina wants to charge. 

The reality is that everything has a spec sheet and that spec sheet determines if a thing is suitable for the marine envirnment. This is not hte only place that's hard on machines.

I knew all along that lots of things are made for other harsh envirnments but for more frugal buyers. I figured there was already a web site or a list that provided marine compatible products for lower prices. 

Hose is a particularly good example, it's rated for a specific temperture and pressure. Really doesn't matter much where you use it. I believe the engine compartment on my boat is a much drier place than under the hood of my car.

So, is there a list? A book? COuld we make one? 

I don't know enough myself but I'll find out real quick once I start working on my boat.

I do know enough to set up a web site that could build a list.

Any interest? ANy more good examples?


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## cardiacpaul (Jun 20, 2006)

I have at least 50 links to sailing stuff, "alternative" sourcing of items and general BS that I just can't seem to part with... here are but a few

http://www.geocities.com/atomfour/A4Parts.txt
http://www.alberg30.org/maintenance/MechanicalPropulsion/Atomic4/A4parts.html
http://www.lbifiberglass.com/lbiproducts/gelcoatsandpigments.html#anchor534030
http://www.usedsails.com/
www.cajuntrading.ca
http://www.postmarine.com/
http://www.sailingsource.com/
http://www.scubasteve.biz/store/marineelectronics.htm
http://www.poliglowproducts.com/index2.phtml
http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/
http://stores.ebay.com/Spit-in-the-Ocean_W0QQcolZ2QQdirZQ2d1QQfsubZQ2d999QQftidZ2QQtZkm
for all you catalina 27 owners, heres a special one...
http://www.catalina27.org/public_pages/c27partscat.htm


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

hertfordnc said:


> Hoffa,
> 
> I think there are plenty of people who have to consider the cost of things on their boats. I think we are reluctant to admit we can't afford something. THere is perhaps a culture (there's that word again) that pressures us into thinking we are not good sailors or we are not safe or not good stewards of our boats if we have can't afford what the marina is selling at the price the marina wants to charge.
> 
> Any interest? ANy more good examples?


Around 1500 people have read this thread and look at the lack of helpful response so far. And there's the problem. I don't understand it, but that's why I wouldn't bust my nuts spending huge amounts of time amassing info or researching it; the interest just isn't there. Or maybe it's just easier to pop down to the local chandlers and pay the going rate.

For the high prices we pay we only have ourselves to blame.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

Great thread, and great ideas. I spend a lot of my time in my business trying to bypass going to the dealer for our equipment. Same situation, the mark ups are obscene, and quite often the same parts are available elsewhere at a fraction of the cost. Found some bearings for $3.50 ea., the dealer wanted $200 ea. It's worth the time to do the research and find alternative sources. In my crab boat I have a 41P Volvo, the circ. pump is $450, air cleaner is over $40, raw water pump $280, and on and on. Unfortunately, I have been stumped trying to find alternatives for Volvo. Anyone have any leads on discounts for Volvo? I just bought a boat with the MD 31a also, guess I'm a glutton for punishment. I would gladly contribute information to a database on Sailnet as I find it. You guys already have a good start for info. on Westerbeke, could there be a section set up as suggested? John


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## geary126 (Jul 11, 2006)

Okay. Here's a suggestion. Why don't we create separate threads for each of the major engines in use, today?

Replacement parts and Notes for Universal [Kubuto (sp)....

Replacement parts and Notes for Yanmar....

[insert 2 other engines, here, or whatver]

the deal is, it the areas have to be policed. So it's all facts, no opinions. None of my typical BS, in other words 

One thread per. Thoughts?


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## HoffaLives (Feb 19, 2007)

The problem is when you are dealing with engine manufacturers (ie Volvo). You can't cross reference the engine to anything else. It's a Vulva and that's it. But if the model is old enough, it is possible that a generic diesel repair shop/parts supplier will be able to reference jobber parts for it at much lower cost. Someone will have to take a trip into the boonies and ask about their engine, and then post here.
BTW, who's in charge here? Who has the god-like authority to start a sticky?


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

> Around 1500 people have read this thread and look at the lack of helpful response so far. And there's the problem. I don't understand it, but that's why I wouldn't bust my nuts spending huge amounts of time amassing info or researching it; the interest just isn't there. Or maybe it's just easier to pop down to the local chandlers and pay the going rate.
> 
> For the high prices we pay we only have ourselves to blame.


I don't think anyone is willing to commit the time required to do a good job on setting up and maintaining an info website. I want to spend my free hours doing other things.

As far as the cost of things go...I don't buy much at retail unless I am in a serious rush for it. There are ways of getting things at a reasonable price. I was under the impression that most people were already doing so, one of the things learned in the first couple of years of boat ownership.


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## CosmosMariner (Dec 21, 2006)

hoffa... Don't get discouraged by the numbers. I learned a long time ago that when someone else is making your point in a conversation don't interrupt them. It may take some time for some of those 1500 to actually start looking for thier particular needs but when they find one of these good leads they will probably add it to this thread. 

I used to work at The Evil Empire and now I buy nothing there unless I must have it NOW and there is no other store nearby. Even JC Whitney catalog has a lot of little things that can be used on boats like alternators. Most alternators' windings are coated these days because of high humidity environments that cars operate in every day.


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## Trekka (Jul 16, 2006)

When I decided to triple the house bank size on my boat I knew the stock 60amp internally regulated Delco alternator would not cut it. I found a local shop that builds alternators for emergency vehicles (you know, the kind that have gobs of displays, equipment, and often life support systems powered up and running all the time). This thing is rated at 110 amps _continuous output_. I had them make a simple mod to take an external regulator, a 3 stage charge controller I bought. Cost of the unit? About $105.


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## thedinghysailor (Oct 15, 2008)

Sounds like a pretty good deal.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

HoffaLives said:


> The problem is when you are dealing with engine manufacturers (ie Volvo). You can't cross reference the engine to anything else. It's a Vulva and that's it. But if the model is old enough, it is possible that a generic diesel repair shop/parts supplier will be able to reference jobber parts for it at much lower cost. Someone will have to take a trip into the boonies and ask about their engine, and then post here.
> BTW, who's in charge here? Who has the god-like authority to start a sticky?


Volvo is Swedish for "You're Screwed." Seriously, some Volvo stuff is good, some is junk, it's all expensive. I have an MD6A in my sailboat. It's not a bad engine, it's the parts that kill you. $165 for a valve?#[email protected][email protected] c'mon. $107 for a set of rings? Are you kidding me?

The best thing going right now is Kubota. Followed closely by Isuzu. The reality of it is that marinizing isn't that complicated. It basically boils down to water cooled exhaust, heat exchanger, and raw water pump for a diesel. Past that it's all about space constraints and service points.

I've learned alot by looking at bigger boats. The big cruising boats (power) don't mince words about using big truck engines. There are a number of places that make manifolds for them. Seems to really take some digging though.

If you are determined (and hey we are Sailors aren't we?) you can get a Kubota engine. Japan has very strict emissions requirements. So the engines get yanked after 3 years and sent here. A few companies specialize in this and the engines aren't very expensive. Parts are DIRT Cheap. Beta Marine and Universal/Westerbeke use Kubota pretty extensively. So if you buy the block you can get the other few parts from them. Rumor is that Beta won't sell them to you... or you'll pay $1000 for the exhaust manifold.

I honestly don't know why you have to have a water cooled exhaust manifold. That just seems to be begging for trouble. I don't understand why you can't run a hot exhaust with a injection elbow 5" away.

the stock Kubota Z500 (Westerbeke 5411/M15) exhaust manifold is $80. That's a brand new price!

Moyer marine is another source that deserves kudos. He specializes in Atomic Bombs... but he will readily admit that the same things apply. His prices are very reasonable for the things you can't make yourself. Although why on earth would you pay $45 for some galvanized pipe and nipples? umm here sailor sailor sucker.

Anyway, Moyer has solved alot of these issues for the Atomic 4 so you can apply them to other small marine blocks.

I really don't see why someone isn't selling a conversion kit with instructions.

My experience so far is that most "marine experts" border on scam artists. There are some gems out there, but probably 60% of the "experts" are shifty and overpriced. I had two "experts" condemn my MD6a as "dead"... that was 2 years ago. It is certainly cranky, but not dead.

As for tractor repair.... most small construction equipment uses the same power plants. little 20 to 50 hp kubota etc diesels. If you are willing to tear down the engine and bring the head and block to a shop, there are machine shops that specialize in this and will do the "hard" specialized work for reasonable prices. By hard work I mean the milling and valve grinding.

The trick to identifying your Kubota block is to look for it's serial number. Kubota has a nice page on this. The japanese page is much better (link surprssed by forum)

The dipstick has the model number engraved on it for some reason on Kubotas. This is the simplest place to find your model. The first character of the serial number denotes the year of manufacture. The second is the month. My block is Z500-2Bxxx Meaning Z500 engine, 2002, Feb. xxx serial.

Another great resource : (link surpressed by forum)

Grey market tractor is a whole other post. But this is a list of engine models and oil/air filters. As a bonus it has the tractor model numbers. When you go to the dealer life is alot simpler if you tell them you have a tractor. Although you may choose to tell them you removed the engine for another purpose such as pumping water... (under your hull). lol.

Fuel and Air filters may be changed by the marinizer, so double check them.

I had hell finding the Fram Oil filter. (rymes with Morrison) does a great job of hiding that along with westerbeke. Cost at Autozone $6, Cost at discount retailer $9+shipping.

I actually prefer to use a automotive alternator.... Autozone has a lifetime warranty. lol.

One other tidbit. Use an impact wrench to get your pulley nut loose. It will make very short work of it. Just watch your fingers and don't touch the contacts on the back. Some alternators bite when provoked.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

I'm repowering to a marinized Z500 (home bake 5411). Someone else did most of it. Can't for the life of me figure out where he got the plans and parts. They aren't standard and they weren't machined... they are cast parts. Not that machining would be difficult or expensive for this stuff.

How do they calculate the heat exchanger size? I'd guess that there is a formula that relates KW output to heat. Most engines are rated in Kilowatts as that is the metric way to measure engine output. 

I find that checking the numbers has rewarded me multiple times where my boat is concerned. It debunks many myths and other expensive nonsense.

I also don't understand why the 5411 used such a puny raw water pump.

Speaking of raw water pumps. Depco in Florida is a really good resource for Johnson pumps. Volvo wanted $350+ and 4 weeks for a pump. Johnson had a retrofit pump for $165. Johnson makes Volvo's pump. GRRRRR.

Similar thing for an alternator bracket. I wound up making that out of a turnbuckle from home depot. Volvo part - $75, Home depot solution $3 and 4 trips there to find the right size.


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## frankdrebin (Jan 14, 2008)

Welcome to sailnet. (you tickled an old thread.)


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## cpatters (Apr 7, 2009)

Water pump.. *HoffaLives*, I'm curious as to where i can find a distributor for the British Leyland parts!!

I too have a need for a "westerbeke" freshwater pump. I simply cannot fork out $720 to torrenson for this piece. It looks just like a little old chevy part.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

That tickle is making cpatters giggle with joy........i2f


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## montenido (May 14, 2008)

Hoffa, thanks for the great thread. I do agree with Cosmos though, I didn't pipe in immediately because I didn't have any good info to add. My boat uses the Universal 5411 (Kabota Z500), so this is great information for me and for many others. I WILL kick in any useful info when I come across it.

Thanks again, Bill


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## cpatters (Apr 7, 2009)

*misinformation*

ok looking around


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## cpatters (Apr 7, 2009)

so at least as far as the westerbeke four-91 is concerned...
i am trying to draw conclusions from the information out there.

I've got 2 separate roads here.

a) westerbeke used the same blocks as, Leyland 154 (also called Leyland 4-25), and Nuffield 4-25. 
these parts can be had domestically as Leyland diesel parts or overseas from tractor parts suppliers. In my instance the waterpump differed based on age.
-the actual pump found here-jcl
-the same p# else where-# 12H3203
So, the part started to fuzz and distort it may fit it may not. Which leads me to road (b)
(b) westerbeke in the USA is universal, they use kubota blocks, kubota is a tractor and the engine is D-1101 for a M30. That engine is used in the M5950. And here's that part 
A-15451-74250

These tractor websites will hopefull give some folks some traction.
note:allpartsstore.com makes it easy b/c you can narrow down by part 1st then by mfg/model. so you can see all the potential parts nearly at once.


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## macwester26 (Mar 21, 2013)

I have a Kabota d1005e Diesel engine I can get the spare parts cheapish But I never never mention the words Marine or Boat..


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## RocketScience (Sep 8, 2008)

macwester26 said:


> I have a Kabota d1005e Diesel engine I can get the spare parts cheapish But I never never mention the words Marine or Boat..


Mac, you ARE this month's SailNet's _"Thread Revival"_ winner!!!

See the Admin for your prize.


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## jimkyle99 (Mar 20, 2013)

Still worth reading or re-reading as the case may be.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Well worth the re-read! And, the posts from CardiacPaul (CP) & imagine2frolic (I2F) bring a tear to my eye...

I have the Kubota to Universal cross reference, and have created a complete parts diagram for my Universal M25 (which *is *a Kubota D850). PM me if you would like a pointer.


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

This is simply NOT rocket science.

Didn't your mothers ever teach you to do some research and homework, as well as comparison shopping? Really.

Heat exchangers: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source & Flix

Kubota equivalents: Universal 5432 & M40 engine information in addition to the earlier posts which came from somebody who'd already FOUND the information on the internet.

Google is your friend. One design owners associations are invaluable, like this one: Diesel Engine - C34

How many of you still have M25 engines with the old alternator bracket that can fail catastrophically? Maine Sail and I and others have been writing about this issue for over 15 years.

You really do have to spend some quality time looking around, finding boats like yours with engines like yours. Our C34 website is pretty thorough, the C36 skippers are great, as are the Ericson skippers. We all share systems and engines and have already "found" most of the answers to the questions you are "whining" about.

Do some research and you'll find your answers, 'cuz most of it "is already out there."

Good luck.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

I had a Perkins for almost 20 years. Every Perkins ever built has some sort of farm application. Farm equipment in Canada is subsidized (30% at that time).
I bought all my Perkins parts at the local farm equipment shop at a fraction of any marine outfit.


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## i_amcdn (Jul 4, 2012)

From what I can see my Honda 9.9 is all honda...everyone I speak to says that Honda is pretty closed when it comes to sharing.

On the other hand....years ago my mechanic told me that my 2006 Chevy Impala was probably 40% common to Toyota parts. As said above there are only so many ways that you can skin an alternator.

Butyl Rubber tape though will be exclusively from Maine Sail.


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## cmw1 (Oct 18, 2013)

ohh yes the boat dollar cant buy anything fro a boat for under 100$


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