# 2012 Beneteau Oceanis 41 and 2011 Catalina 445



## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

Hello there.

We've previously owned both Catalina and Beneteau boats. And it looks like we're going to own one of them again. Having been boatless for 3 years, we're eager to get back!

We're looking at either ordering a '12 Oceanis 41 or picking up a left over '11 Catalina 445. There is precious little about the 445 sailing characteristics online and nothing about the 41.

It will be she and me and the dogs most of the time. Daughter and hubbie from time to time. Realistically, 22 weekends a year with a couple of weeks cruising per annum too. If we're on the boat, we're sailing.

Comparably equipped the Catalina is about $35K more. To get it that close the Catalina is much more heavily discounted (one year old, never been wet). We plan on keeping the boat 10 - 12 years.

She's gaga about the 41 cockpit (it is most excellent) but to me the Catalina seems more solidly built.

We don't race. With her on board, we don't bury the rail.

Stupid it may be, but we like buying new.

Anybody have opinions about either boat?

The boat's home will be on the Chesapeake. Never sailed there. Can't wait.

Thanks,

BCC


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

The Catalina 445 and the Benetau 41 are very different boats. One is a 40ft boat with 8450kg and 83.3 m2 of sail the other a 43.3ft boat with 10 659kg and 94.8m2.

The cockpit of the Benetau 41 has the space of a 45ft but that does not make it in one and that huge bath platform has no comparison but the truth is that they are different boats in what regards sailing.

the hulls are also very different and will have a different performance but that is just a detail. First of all you have to decide if you want a 40ft with 8450kg or a 43ft with 10 659Kg If you sail alone with your wife, the 40 ft would be probably more adequate. If you sail with a crew than the 445 would not be a problem.

Anyway if you are going to buy a new Benetau 41 don't buy one of the existent boats. They are going to lower the boom in 20cm and that's an important alteration in what regards easy of use.

I had been inside the boat and I have read several boat tests about it and I think I have some information about the boat. I will post tomorrow about it on the interesting boat thread.

Regards

Paulo


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## jameso (Dec 5, 2011)

if I were about to invest this much money and time (10 years plus) I would find a charter for each and at least look the boats over for signs of wear and tear. After two or three years of hard use, details would show any shortcomings I should think. I 'm sure they are both fine boats, I could find nothing on the Beneteau online, but have read a lot of praise for the 445~~


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

At this spring's boat show we were most impressed by the C445 amongst all the other offerings. Esp in terms of finishes below and storage. Reports were that she sailed quite well too.

All things else equal, we'd probably go for the Catalina.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

Faster said:


> At this spring's boat show we were most impressed by the C445 amongst all the other offerings. Esp in terms of finishes below and storage. Reports were that she sailed quite well too.
> 
> All things else equal, we'd probably go for the Catalina.


I prefer the Catalina 445 for a number of reasons. Catalina installs a lead keel, Beneteau installs an iron keel. Also, the 445 has an internal flange at the hull to deck joint. I also prefer the joinery work of the 445.


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## CBinRI (May 17, 2004)

BCC1 said:


> Hello there.
> 
> We've previously owned both Catalina and Beneteau boats. And it looks like we're going to own one of them again. Having been boatless for 3 years, we're eager to get back!
> 
> ...


I would never consider buying a sailboat new. If you were willing to buy ten years old, you could get a MUCH better built boat for comparable money.


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## Yamsailor (Jun 7, 2006)

CBinRI said:


> I would never consider buying a sailboat new. If you were willing to buy ten years old, you could get a MUCH better built boat for comparable money.


Amen


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

CBinRI said:


> I would never consider buying a sailboat new. If you were willing to buy ten years old, you could get a MUCH better built boat for comparable money.


Well, when it was new for sure, but now you have a 10 year old design, a dated boat and all systems in the boat will be also 10 years old. Many would be on the right time for replacement, or you think that a guy that is selling a 10 year old boat has just replaced them for you?

Maybe you like to make maintenance, I like to sail and not to worry.

Besides you would not have that incredible sensation of having a brand new boat

Regards

PS: this has nothing to do with this thread, this is about a 2011 and a 2012 boats, both new and there is a difference of $35K between the boats that are different in size. On this case I guess that it is not a question of value but to the OP to decide which boat he really wants, the smaller or the bigger.

Paulo


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## kmp1284 (Nov 18, 2010)

Beneteau or Catalina, like debating American Standard or Kohler ... they're both toilets.


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## Deadhead (Jan 3, 2009)

I was on the new B41 recently. Can't say I was impressed - single head, small chart table and not a good use of space to my mind. A cruising couple I know sail a 2010 C445. I don't see that the 2 boats are really comparable. The Catalina is much more appealing to me although I still prefer my B46 over that.


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

Deadhead said:


> I was on the new B41 recently. Can't say I was impressed - single head, small chart table and not a good use of space to my mind. A cruising couple I know sail a 2010 C445. I don't see that the 2 boats are really comparable. The Catalina is much more appealing to me although I still prefer my B46 over that.


It could be I didn't explain myself very well. We are weekend sailors. On the boat Friday night, sailing saturday morning, returning to slip Sunday evening. Will be for at least 8 years. The longest cruise we will take is 14 days once a year. Almost all will be on the Chesapeake. Other than sleeping and food prep, we are cockpit people. The new 41, 45 and Sense are amazing in this regard.

I don't think the small chart table will be a problem. Planning will be done on a laptop interfaced to the chart plotter. Paper charts will be a backup only.

SO specifically wanted a vacflush single head after the 2 head 473. Fine with me. Less to maintain.

Price difference ended up significantly greater than I thought. This will be the deciding factor. Actually, not true. Wife has a preference for the 41. I have too many friends who's wife don't sail much anymore. I intend to do everything I can to ensure she continues to love sailing. With me.

I appreciate all of the perspectives.


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

PCP said:


> Well, when it was new for sure, but now you have a 10 year old design, a dated boat and all systems in the boat will be also 10 years old. Many would be on the right time for replacement, or you think that a guy that is selling a 10 year old boat has just replaced them for you?
> 
> Maybe you like to make maintenance, I like to sail and not to worry.
> 
> ...


I have a high stress job ( who doesn't these days) and travel about 70% of the time.

Weekends, I want to sail.

I do my own maintenance. I just don't want to do much.

I like technology and new things. Both the 41 and 445 are deviations from current norms, which I like.

The boat ain't going to be old. I just don't have the time. If we are on the boat, we're sailing.

But I certainly appreciate some folks enjoy tinkering and certainly a 10 year old boat would have a lower initial cost.

It all depends how one defines value. No wrong answer, I guess.


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## weinie (Jun 21, 2008)

kmp1284 said:


> Beneteau or Catalina, like debating American Standard or Kohler ... they're both toilets.


ouch.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Deadhead said:


> I was on the new B41 recently. Can't say I was impressed - single head, small chart table and not a good use of space to my mind. ...


What do you mean by single head?










The boat will only have a single head if you want too.

And what do you mean by a not good use of space? This boat is among the very few 40ft boats that can offer a big galley, a big head(s) enough storage *and 3 cabins*. Do you call this a bad use of space?

Regarding the chart table that is a modern tendency, I mean, the use of that space for a better use: Most of the crews on cruising boats are very short, many times the navigator is also the skipper and the crew and guys that really navigate do that most of the time that at the steering wheel and to prepare on a mooring a voyage with more detail they use a lap top and the saloon table is perfectly adequate for that.

More and more the chart table is really not the space for the charts (that we do on the saloon table) but the space to look at several electronic devices and the boat electronic display. For that you don't need so much space as before.

Regards

Paulo


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## Deadhead (Jan 3, 2009)

Paulo:

I was not on a 3 cabin 41 - the berth on the port side of the companionway as shown on your schematic was a little closet in the 2 cabin model. The schematic for the boat I was on is here:

Beneteau USA

Much different layout.

Regards.
DH


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

Deadhead said:


> Paulo:
> 
> I was not on a 3 cabin 41 - the berth on the port side of the companionway as shown on your schematic was a little closet in the 2 cabin model. The schematic for the boat I was on is here:
> 
> ...


Yes, there is a 2 cabin, a 3 cabin, single head and double head layout. We would have gone with a 2 cabin version, if the cabin was bigger than the 3 cabin, but it wasn't. I suspect the 3 cabin will be far more popular.

If we overnighted often with other couples on board, we may have chosen the 2 head layout. With it most often being just the 2 of us overnight, we preferred the extra cabin space with a single head.

Great to have choices.


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## jameso (Dec 5, 2011)

has anyone here experenced Beneteau's after a few years, do the interiors hold up to wear and tear very well?


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## sevent (Jun 18, 2009)

choose the one the wife prefers. you will love either one. if you keep it in the Annapolis or Rock Hall area and ever would consider a share/partner arrangement let me know.

Merry Christmas!


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

sevent said:


> choose the one the wife prefers. you will love either one. if you keep it in the Annapolis or Rock Hall area and ever would consider a share/partner arrangement let me know.
> 
> Merry Christmas!


Good advice. We have chosen the 41 the wife prefers.

We are going to keep the boat in Rock Hall. A share/partner arrangement is something we haven't considered, but never say never!

Merry Christmas to you too.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

jameso said:


> has anyone here experenced Beneteau's after a few years, do the interiors hold up to wear and tear very well?


We sail with friends who have a B 36.7 and have been wintering in the Caribbean - this will be their 9th season.. the boat still looks like new (they do look after it) All they did interior wise was to make slipcovers for the faux white leather cushion covers.... They have revarnished the sole once, about 2 years ago.


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## MJBrown (Apr 1, 2009)

Congratulations on the 41 I think you'll love her. She's got that hard chine and will be better sailed with minimum heel so your wife should be happy. I haven't sailed one yet but if it's anything like our B43 she'll sail best with 10-15 degrees of heel at max. Flat is fast with the new hull designs. The boat has a lot of room both below and above decks which you'll also appreciate. The cockpit is as roomy as you can get which you'll love out on the hook. I love the pantry next to the galley, it's a great feature. I helped Brian at the Annapolis Show and the 41 was one very popular boat. He and the crew at GWS will take good care of you.
Mike


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## IMSully (Dec 29, 2011)

I don't understand what Paulo meant when he wrote this;
_"Anyway if you are going to buy a new Benetau 41 don't buy one of the existent boats. They are going to lower the boom in 20cm and that's an important alteration in what regards easy of use."_

I am comparing the Oceanis 41 to the Jeanneau 409. Any thoughts?


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

IMSully said:


> I don't understand what Paulo meant when he wrote this;
> _"Anyway if you are going to buy a new Benetau 41 don't buy one of the existent boats. They are going to lower the boom in 20cm and that's an important alteration in what regards easy of use."_
> 
> I am comparing the Oceanis 41 to the Jeanneau 409. Any thoughts?


Humm, what is the doubt? The boom is too high and it is a pain in the ass to put the sail inside the bag or to reach the top of the sail. Recently French journalists when test sailing the boat complained about that and the guys from the shipyard said they were going to lower it about 20cm. If you are going to buy an inmast furling that is irrelevant.

The 409 is a sportier boat especially with the performance version. It will heel just a little more and will go a bit better upwind. It is a lot lighter than the Benetau and will be faster with light wind. With strong winds downwind the Benetau will probably go faster and steadier.

I would say that the jeanneau has a better saloon but the Benetau has a better galley and a bigger cockpit, not to mention the big swim platform.

The quality is very similar, I find that the jeanneau has just a bit better finish, but that is a question of opinion and you have eyes so just buy the one you like best or the one where they make you a better price (sometimes it is possible to get huge discounts on one and small on other, it depends on stocks).

regards

Paulo


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## IMSully (Dec 29, 2011)

All I have seen of either boat are pictures online. Since I haven't seen the Oceanis 41 in the flesh, I didn't think about how high the boom was. I don't care for the arch much anyway, looks to much like a Hunter. Where can I go to learn what others are paying for these boats?


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

kmp1284 said:


> Beneteau or Catalina, like debating American Standard or Kohler ... they're both toilets.


KMP1284,

So what kind of toilet do you own or sail? Be truthful in your answer.

I just guessing it's a old POS that someone told you was "bluewater" capable, but I could be wrong.

The OP had a valid question....too bad that you had to insult him and all the other Beneteau and Catalina owners. And, as to toilets, both American Standard and Kohler are very good products.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

IMSully said:


> All I have seen of either boat are pictures online. Since I haven't seen the Oceanis 41 in the flesh, I didn't think about how high the boom was. I don't care for the arch much anyway, looks to much like a Hunter. Where can I go to learn what others are paying for these boats?


If you are serious about having one of those one option would be to pick an airplane to Dusseldorf at the end of this month. it is the biggest world boat show specially if we consider sailing and you will find there both boats (check it anyway) and also the Dufour and the new Hanse as well has the Bavaria. Probably you will find there an American dealer for each brand and if you show interest for several boats an make that a price issue you will get a very special price. Anyway all the boats have special offers for the boat show. I am quite sure that will more than pay your stay.

Besides Dusseldorf is a very nice place with great food and a brewery that makes beer on the spot and has a terrific ambiance (kind of 30's if you know what I mean). It is the German city with highest living standards and German standards are not low

Regards

Paulo


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## IMSully (Dec 29, 2011)

Hello Paulo,
Dusseldorf would be a great place to see all of the boats, however it isn't an option for me right now. I do appreciate the suggestion though.
What I meant, was a forum where folks who have recently pruchased an Oceanis 41 or a Jeanneau 409, discuss their pruchase experience; how they equipped their boat and what they finally paid. Edmunds has an Owner Review thread where people weigh in on their decision. It's a great way to guage satisfaction and value prior to shopping. Since I am not waelthy I need to get the most for my dollar.
Buying a new boat that is priced in the $250K -$300K range is the equivalent to purchasing a home, maybe even more so. Before I make a decision like that I want to be certain that I hava all the facts. For example, a forum discussion on this site starts off with a post describing the 409 as fabulously equipped and under $200K. A fabulously equipped 409 is more likely to eat up 300K. There have to be good deals somewhere and I like some specifics that's all.
BTW, thank you for making the effort to answer. 
Mike


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

PCP said:


> If you are serious about having one of those one option would be to pick an airplane to Dusseldorf at the end of this month. it is the biggest world boat show specially if we consider sailing and you will find there both boats (check it anyway) and also the Dufour and the new Hanse as well has the Bavaria. Probably you will find there an American dealer for each brand and if you show interest for several boats an make that a price issue you will get a very special price. Anyway all the boats have special offers for the boat show. I am quite sure that will more than pay your stay.
> 
> Besides Dusseldorf is a very nice place with great food and a brewery that makes beer on the spot and has a terrific ambiance (kind of 30's if you know what I mean). It is the German city with highest living standards and German standards are not low
> 
> ...


The Oceanis 41 will also be at the Toronto Boat Show later this month. Don't know about the 409.


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## Alfalotus44 (Jan 10, 2012)

HI, am new on this forum. 
Question for PCP :


> Anyway if you are going to buy a new Benetau 41 don't buy one of the existent boats. They are going to lower the boom in 20cm and that's an important alteration in what regards easy of use.


Where did you find this information? 
Thanks


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Alfalotus44 said:


> HI, am new on this forum.
> Question for PCP :
> Where did you find this information?
> Thanks


Here:

Voile Magazine assinatura de revista, 5 edições digitais | Revistas digitais Zinio e eBooks

Regards

Paulo


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## Alfalotus44 (Jan 10, 2012)

Thank you PCP,I will buy it, ( the magazine), am french canadian, so won't be a problem for me.
I will be in Toronto this week end to take a look at the new Oceanis 41. I am new in the sailing world and after just a few resurch on the internet, I figure out, this boat is probably the one for me. I've been racing vintage cars for a while now and looking for a new hobby.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Alfalotus44 said:


> Thank you PCP,I will buy it, ( the magazine), am french canadian, so won't be a problem for me.
> I will be in Toronto this week end to take a look at the new Oceanis 41. I am new in the sailing world and after just a few resurch on the internet, I figure out, this boat is probably the one for me. I've been racing vintage cars for a while now and looking for a new hobby.


If you have been racing probably you would appreciate a more sportive boat with a good interior and good cruising abilities.

Besides the Beneteau you should look at the Jeanneau 409 (that has a performance version) to the new Hanse 415 to the more Sportier Dehler 41 and to the Dufour 40e. They will be all more fun to sail, specially the Dehler that has a Dealer in Chicago.

Take a look at this thread where all those boats were commented:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/62341-interesting-sailboats-210.html

Regards

Paulo


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

PCP said:


> If you have been racing probably you would appreciate a more sportive boat with a good interior and good cruising abilities.
> 
> Besides the Beneteau you should look at the Jeanneau 409 (that has a performance version) to the new Hanse 415 to the more Sportier Dehler 41 and to the Dufour 40e. They will be all more fun to sail, specially the Dehler that has a Dealer in Chicago.
> 
> ...


A C&C 121 would out sail any of those if sporty is what he wants.

However, he'd likely not be able to get in to Rock Hall.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

midlifesailor said:


> A C&C 121 would out sail any of those if sporty is what he wants.
> 
> However, he'd likely not be able to get in to Rock Hall.


Well, it out price certainly any of those even if I don't believe that it out sail a top spec Dehler 41 (not the inexpensive one that I am referring).

I referred those boats because they offer performance and sail pleasure at an affordable price and good cruising accommodations. The C&C is a much more expensive boat.

Regards

Paulo


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

PCP said:


> If you have been racing probably you would appreciate a more sportive boat with a good interior and good cruising abilities.
> 
> Besides the Beneteau you should look at the Jeanneau 409 (that has a performance version) to the new Hanse 415 to the more Sportier Dehler 41 and to the Dufour 40e. They will be all more fun to sail, specially the Dehler that has a Dealer in Chicago.
> 
> ...


I love tweaking the sails to get that last 1/2 knot out of her. Another hobby of mine is trackdays on a motorcycle. Speeds up to 150 mph.

However, I don't look at sailing the same way. At all. Objectively and comparatively, all the boats you mention are just sloooow.

Course, I don't race....


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

bcc,

you may or may not know of one Chip Hanuer?!?! one of the unlimited hydro drivers more winning racers that has retired. Guess what he does not to race? yep, sail boat, small 12' butterfly's IIRC. says it is just as an adrenalin rush as racing hydros over the water at 200+ down the straightaways. Granted a bit different rush, but adrenalin just the same. 

If you like Bene's, I'd look look at the first 40 personally. Not sure I would look at a C&C 121.

Marty


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## Alfalotus44 (Jan 10, 2012)

Thanks everyone, I have checked the boats you've mentioned. The 409 is nice, not sure about the Dehler with all the cables on the floor of the cockpit, C&C and the Fist 40seems a bit to narrow... Anyway. I understand that sailboats are slow, and I won't let go racing my Lotus 23B. Racing in the summer and sailing in the winter. I'm just affraid that everytime I will see another sailboat , I will try to pass him... But since my wife is part of the sailling adventure,(we plan to cross the ocean ) I guess I will have to compromise on the speed. So What I'm really looking for is a fast, luxury, ocean cruiser, easy to sail, around 200K. Did I mentioned that we have 5 kids, (don't worry we don't plan to bring them along all the time). Monday we will be at the boat show in Toronto, and will visit a bunch of sailboats for the first time. I will get back to you with my appreciations later on.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Alfalotus44 said:


> Thanks everyone, I have checked the boats you've mentioned. The 409 is nice, not sure about the Dehler with all the cables on the floor of the cockpit, C&C and the Fist 40seems a bit to narrow... Anyway. I understand that sailboats are slow, and I won't let go racing my Lotus 23B. Racing in the summer and sailing in the winter. I'm just affraid that everytime I will see another sailboat , I will try to pass him... But since my wife is part of the sailling adventure,(we plan to cross the ocean ) I guess I will have to compromise on the speed. So What I'm really looking for is a fast, luxury, ocean cruiser, easy to sail, around 200K. Did I mentioned that we have 5 kids, (don't worry we don't plan to bring them along all the time). Monday we will be at the boat show in Toronto, and will visit a bunch of sailboats for the first time. I will get back to you with my appreciations later on.


Let me tell you something that I have learned with time and sailing in different modern sailboats:

Sailboats are slow if you compare them with a car and a car is slow if compared with an airplane but, as Marty have said, the sensations you can get on a sailboat are not with accordance with that slowness, the same way you can have much more vivid sensations in a car comparing with an airplane that is way faster.

Between sailboats a 1K difference is a lot and you can say that is nothing but that is not what is more important between a Dehler/Dufour 40e and a Oceanis (Benetau) it is the sensation you have at the wheel. You should understand that very well. The sensation yo got at the wheel of your little Lotus has nothing to do with the sensation you have on the wheel of a modern turbo diesel BMW sedan even if the two can go at the same speed. That's about it that I am talking about (and in what regards the boats they will not go at the same speed).

And you will want to catch any boat that appears on the horizon, I can tell you that.

Probably I am not very different from you, I have raced motorcycles for more than 10 years and I drive a tuned up Mr2 so it is possible that I know what you would like as a boat. I am also a family man and the boat was part of the my kid's education. I would say that if you can afford it a cruising boat with a sportive character would be what serves you better. From the ones You can have there probably the better (at a lower price) is a Dufour 40e or the new Dehler. Both are more expensive than the Benetau or the Jeanneau.

The Dehler is by far from the three the better offshore boat and the one I would chose if I wanted to sail a lot offshore. It is also from all the boats (with the exception of the Hanse) the one that have the poorer designed interior even if the quality is probably better than the one from Benetau.

I did not say nothing about the First because the First 40 has in my opinion two capital defects has a cruising boat: Very insufficient outside storage and not a decent anchor locker. In what regards sailing characteristics is not very different from the Dehler, including in its offshore capability (very good).

If you don't chose the right boat now you will find it later and to change for the right boat you will then waste a lot of money. You should try both types of boats, I mean Bavaria/Benetau type and Dufour 40e/Dehler 41 type and then you would understand precisely what I am trying to say. Charter is a good way to do it.

Regards

Paulo


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

Alfalotus44 said:


> Thanks everyone, I have checked the boats you've mentioned. The 409 is nice, not sure about the Dehler with all the cables on the floor of the cockpit, C&C and the Fist 40seems a bit to narrow... Anyway. I understand that sailboats are slow, and I won't let go racing my Lotus 23B. Racing in the summer and sailing in the winter. I'm just affraid that everytime I will see another sailboat , I will try to pass him... But since my wife is part of the sailling adventure,(we plan to cross the ocean ) I guess I will have to compromise on the speed. So What I'm really looking for is a fast, luxury, ocean cruiser, easy to sail, around 200K. Did I mentioned that we have 5 kids, (don't worry we don't plan to bring them along all the time). Monday we will be at the boat show in Toronto, and will visit a bunch of sailboats for the first time. I will get back to you with my appreciations later on.


Take pics at the show, if you don't mind. I'm going to try to swing a business trip up there so I can take in the show the following Saturday.

Anyway, let me tell ya how to get the right boat, IMO. Show your SO the boats under consideration and let her pick. Then option it out the way you want. Then keep the boat mainly flat when she's on board the first 2 seasons. Wife on the water in a boat you like equals the right boat.

She ain't happy, the family ain't sailing. Much.


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## Alfalotus44 (Jan 10, 2012)

I understand and agree at both opinions. I will try as much boats as I can before buying, and won't choose before I can feel the wheel of a boat like I can feel the wheel of a car. I have a lot to learn in regards of sailing but I will do everything to get the right way and be able to recognize the smallest differences between each boats. For the moment, except for the beauty and some particularity of the boat ( I have own many RV (to pull my race car).) I don't know much about what a good boat feels like, but I am a fast learner. e.g. my RV now is a Mercedes Benz B class diesel; small, economic, very well design and easily pull my trailer. As to the wife, Carole had followed me at every races I did ( over 200 ) over the past years and says that she will follow me to the end of the world, so not a problem there, but I know what you mean, if the wife's happy ...

Andre


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

As Paulo points out speed is relative. I find it quite a rush when you have a bunch of big boats (some that cost as much as a nice house) in very close proximity jousting at the start. Things happen fast on our slow sailboats then.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Any sailing boat is also a sports machine unless you chose not to use it like that and stay in port when you can have fun with the boat.

When you go out downwind at 10k (I hope it would be more in my next boat) with 25/30K wind surfing two meter waves that come slightly sideways you have about the same sensation at the wheel as when going fast on a twisting dirt road with a powerful car or bike: You have to have the wheel in constant motion to control the slides, you know, just like in a car, before it happens you have to compensate and before the slide finishes you have to have the wheel strait again.

Same sensation in a boat you have in a car going fast with the additional pleasure of controlling 8T moving with the tip of your fingers. I guess you will understand by this the importance of having a very sensitive steering.

The difference between a more sportive boat and a heavy boat here can be very important: While on this conditions a lighter sportive boat maintains a very light steering a heavy cruising boat can be hard on the wheel and what is a pleasure on a fast boat can turn up in a muscular tiring effort on a heavy boat, not to mention the much bigger control a sensitive wheel gives.

And if you think this are not very frequent conditions, well in what regards coastal cruising they are not but in what regards crossing oceans in the trade winds they are.

Another similarity I found is with my old racing dirt bike, I mean when you are powering upwind full sails on 18/20K wind. My boat could go at 7K sometimes jumping 3m waves crashing down and most of the time breaking them, I mean water flowing all around. The power that the boat is making is huge and you can feel it at the wheel.

After some hours of this I was amazed to find an intact interior. It is just wonderful that a cruising boat can take this kind of punishment without the interior coming apart. 

A good cruising sailing boat is two things, a caravan and a sports machine. There are ones that are more a caravan others that are more a sports machine. For some sailors the sportive part is completely irrelevant, they only want a sea caravan, others only wanted fast cruising boats for racing.

For the ones that like sports and want also a sea caravan for the family the trick is too chose the right combination between interior space and sailing performance and regarding this you can be sure of one thing: The boat that you will see at the boat show with the bigger and nicer interior will not be the best sailing boat, specially in what concerns the space on the front cabin. 

Regards

Paulo


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## Alfalotus44 (Jan 10, 2012)

Compromise, that's the word I was looking for.

Were leaving Montreal for Toronto this afternoon, talk to you later.
Thanks for the advice.

Andre
I have try to put a picture on my signature and it dosen't work? But you might be able to see a picture of my racecar on my profile.
You drive an old Dirt Bike? I own a 1974 Can Am TNT 175.


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

PCP said:


> Any sailing boat is also a sports machine unless you chose not to use it like that and stay in port when you can have fun with the boat.
> 
> When you go out downwind at 10k (I hope it would be more in my next boat) with 25/30K wind surfing two meter waves that come slightly sideways you have about the same sensation at the wheel as when going fast on a twisting dirt road with a powerful car or bike: You have to have the wheel in constant motion to control the slides, you know, just like in a car, before it happens you have to compensate and before the slide finishes you have to have the wheel strait again.
> 
> ...


Good analogy. Speed is relative. 150mph on my Honda at a race track felt no faster than 40mph does on my Ktm dirt bike on hard mountain trails.

My wife rides her own bike. Calmly, on the street. She won't ride with me.


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## tcac92405 (Sep 22, 2010)

Catalina ALL THE WAY!


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

Having never sailed the Oceanis 41 and given the dearth of detailed reports, it was gratifying to see the Practical Sailor article on the Beneteau. Quite a complimentary review, especially for its intended purpose, which is mine.

Can't wait till it arrives.


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

jameso said:


> has anyone here experenced Beneteau's after a few years, do the interiors hold up to wear and tear very well?


We have a First 47.7 that we have had for 12 years. Everything is holding up quite well. The Cherry interior and cabin sole is prone to scratching, so we have to be careful. It probably would have been better to use the corian on the entire galley counter top instead of a portion with cherry wood as the counter top. The corion has cracked though.

If I remember correctly, Beneteau is now using a more durable laminate? Check that.

We beat up the boat as much as one could reasonably beat it up, been through all sorts of weather including the Mac storm this summer with full main.

At strictly sail last Thursday, the Beneteau factory rep told me that the Oceanis and First are built to the same structural standards. The only difference is that one is more of a racer/cruiser and the other more of a cruiser.

You wouldn't know that the boat was 12 years old. The only significant problem we have had is that we had to replace the rudder bearing which fused itself to the rudder sleeve. I am pretty happy with things like the wiring, how everything is well labeled, etc. The cabin headliner is very thoguhtfully done with Velcro and screws.

That said, I saw the Catalina 445 on Sunday, and I was pleasantly surprised. I like that there is no wood on the exterior. We have teak in the cockpit. Looks nice. But, I think I like the grey nonskid of the Catalina better. Things are simple. I didn't see any obvious structural problems. Some of the cabin sole has exposed screws, and that is a little cheap looking, but so what? I tried to check how the chainplates were attached, but I couldn't really tell by feeling my hand into the liner. I have a feeling that all of these modern boats have chainplates designed well in excess of what is necessary - one significant improvement over boats from the 70s and 80s. I know that is a general statement, but that is what it seems like to me.

The water tight bulkead in front is pretty cool. If I remember correctly, the 445 has a cockpit lazzarete hatch that leads into one of the aft cabins? That is interesting, but maybe not for me.

The Oceanis was at the show as well, but I didn't take significant note of it. I paid more attention to the 45. The 45 was nice, I guess, but I still can't get into that "Euro" design.


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## opc11 (Jun 8, 2011)

Great thread. These boats interest me quite a bit. Paulo thanks for adding to the mix. I agree with the OP regarding the travelers on the cockpit soles. Besides the obvious it makes me wonder how one would enclose/cover the cockpit with a biminy or something a bit bigger.

I noticed Jeanneau's new 379 has an option for a swing keel and comes with twin rudders, both of which I find VERY APPEALLING in my search for a boat I can travel worldwide in. Does anyone know if Jeanneau would accomodate these same two features in the 409?

Thanks to all for contributing.


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## gr8trn (Dec 10, 2008)

B41, BSenSe 43, J379, J409 at the Seattle Boat Show right now.


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## armandolio (Aug 7, 2011)

BBC1,
I am glad I found your thread as these are exactly the two boats that I am considering and my intended use is similar to yours. I welcome your thoughts on the issues below:

- the cockpit and swim platform on the B41 are beyond compare, however I also felt that the back of the cockpit seats was lower and perhaps would feel less safe while heeling.

- With the 3 cabin model, storage may be minimal in both. What was your conclusion?

- I thought the lifelines were lower in the B41 and going to the bow there was less to hang on to. I then walked the 445 at the boat show and I noticed that the handrails on the cabin top were also fairly low. Do you agree?

- While I agree with you about the use of the chart table, there is something about the more traditional salon in the 445 that appeals to me.

- THe B41 lacks a traveler. Could the arch handle an accidental jibe?

- the bed in the forward cabin looked small for 2 people

Look foward to yours and anyone else's comments


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

armandolio said:


> BBC1,
> I am glad I found your thread as these are exactly the two boats that I am considering and my intended use is similar to yours. I welcome your thoughts on the issues below:
> 
> - the cockpit and swim platform on the B41 are beyond compare, however I also felt that the back of the cockpit seats was lower and perhaps would feel less safe while heeling.
> ...


Those are great questions. And I don't have great answers. What follows is my feelings, based on scampering around the show boat on the hard for a half hour at a dealer and the same at the Toronto show.

I did not notice the cockpit seating being lower than normal. My last boat was a B473 and I didn't notice a difference between the two. But I wasn't specifically checking. Regardless, felt safe to me.

Right or wrong, I tend to let the the lifelines run through my fingers going forward. I did the same with the 41 in the yard. Felt normal height to me. Not a lot of other handholds. I really liked moving forward on the 445. The lifelines are canted outboard. I'm 6'3" and had no problem reaching down on either.

From the reviews I've read, most recently Practical Sailor, the lack of a traveller has not affected performance. They say the arch is heavily reinforced. I'm sure I'll be able to report on an accidental jibe!

I loved down below on the 445. The port aft cabin is fantastic, the way it can convert from storage to workshop to cabin.

We will use one of the aft cabins on the 41 for storage for bigger items. The galley and main cabin are fine, but the lazarettes are smallish. Since the dimensions of the rest of below are the same for both the 2 and 3 cabin version, I felt there was more versatility with the 3 for when we have our kids and maybe someday their kids.

Wife prefer down below on the 41, me the 445. This is easy, she wins.

The bed itself in the forward cabin is fine for us on the B (me tall and 215#, she medium). Because it is not an island, it will be definitely be harder for one person to get in/out without disturbing the other. We ordered the extenders for the bed.

If it was only me, I would have gone for the 445 at the time. Wife had such a strong preference for the 41, it was a no brainer. With everthing I've read about the performance of the 41 for the kind of coastal sailing we do, I actually now think I would choose the 41, too. Which is good, since it will be delivered in 6 weeks or so.

A lot of opinion, without hard facts. Sorry.


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## armandolio (Aug 7, 2011)

It was your opinions that I was seeking. Thanks for sharing. I may come back for more later.

Congrats on your decision.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Armando, as I have said before i don't understand how someone can be undecided between a B41 and a Catalina 455. The Beneteau boat that corresponds to the Catalina is the 45. Even the B45 is a considerably less expensive boat than the Catalina, the B41 has no comparison in what regards price.

Regarding size it all depends of the space you need and how you are going to sail the boat: with a crew or solo with a little help from your wife.

There is a good thread about the size of a boat to sail comfortably solo or with a little help and the general consensus was that the max size should be about 40ft and that the main problem is docking and handling the sails in bad weather.

But off course with those new electric thrusters on the bow and stern things get a lot easier, more expensive and with more maintenance. If yo go for a a 45 ft don't forget to add that to the price, unless you sail with a lot of guys that can help you with docking. As someone has said, the main difference comes with height (sail area and docking) and if you compare the height of the 455 to the 41 you will see that there is a huge difference.

Regards

Paulo


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

PCP said:


> Armando, as I have said before i don't understand how someone can be undecided between a B41 and a Catalina 455. The Beneteau boat that corresponds to the Catalina is the 45. Even the B45 is a considerably less expensive boat than the Catalina, the B41 has no comparison in what regards price.
> 
> Regarding size it all depends of the space you need and how you are going to sail the boat: with a crew or solo with a little help from your wife.
> 
> ...


I don't know about Armando, but for me the difference in price of the 41 and the specific 445 I looked at wasn't so great (over the life of the boat) to be a sole determining factor.

The difference in length mattered to my spouse, not me. With a bow thruster, both are relatively easy to dock and with a furling main, easy to sail.

As an avid coastal weekend cruiser, I care less about a boat's ability to provide safety in a hurricane, maximum speed and more about user friendliness, cockpit space, quality, comfort and the visceral feeling the boat evokes when I look at it or sail it. Just being truthful. Maybe I'm not salty enough.

Based on the above factors, nothing Catalina makes that is smaller does it for me as much as the 445. Same for Beneteau and the 41. And I don't want to afford anything bigger or more expensive or used.

Based on my criteria, makes perfect sense to compare these two boats (to me)!


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## armandolio (Aug 7, 2011)

Paulo,
To me the B45 felt a lot bigger than the 445, hence my comparison of the 445 with what felt similar, the B41. Nevertheless, your comments are valid and cause me to do some further comparisons. 

I coastal sail with my wife and/or kids, ease of docking, sail handling is important.


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## olson34 (Oct 13, 2000)

kmp1284 said:


> Beneteau or Catalina, like debating American Standard or Kohler ... they're both toilets.


But on the plus side, you get a LOT of toilet for the dollar!
:laugher


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

olson34 said:


> But on the plus side, you get a LOT of toilet for the dollar!
> :laugher


Just one head. I suspect you'd need more.


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## armandolio (Aug 7, 2011)

I sail in Biscayne Bay. Where do you guys sail?


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

Rock Hall, Chesapeake Bay. Previously NYC.


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## BCC1 (Dec 18, 2011)

So, my wife and I did our orientation yesterday on the Oceanis 41 and my son and I went out again today. Light and moderate air respectively.

My wife and I overnighted.

First off it's a very easy boat to sail. Ideal for singlehandling or a couple. Got it up to 7.5 knots. Don't know wind speed, wind instruments not hooked up yet. Wife said the heeling was moderate, which is supposed to be a feature of this boat. I didn't notice.

A great layout below. Obviously smaller than our 473, but better thought out, imo. Much easier access to maintenance items.

Only sailed about 3 or 4 hours total. But lots of tacking on the Delaware. Didn't miss the traveler.

This is a photo from earlier in the week. The weather this weekend was great! Can't wait to get on the Chesapeake.


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## creedence623 (Mar 8, 2006)

BCC1 said:


> So, my wife and I did our orientation yesterday on the Oceanis 41 and my son and I went out again today. Light and moderate air respectively.
> 
> My wife and I overnighted.
> 
> ...


I always assume the pictures in the magazines are going to make boats look good, but even under a grey sky with a boatyard in the background that thing is absolutely amazing! Stunning boat.

Congratulations!!

As an aside, what do you plan on doing for a dodger? I'd be interested to see if there is any way to work around the arch.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

BCC1, congratulations on your new sailboat. May you and your family live many hours of hapinnes in it. Fair winds to you.

Regards

Paulo


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

PCP said:


> BCC1, congratulations on your new sailboat. May you and your family live many hours of hapinnes in it. Fair winds to you.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Ditto!!


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## armandolio (Aug 7, 2011)

well done BCC1. Post some pictures when you get it outfitted with bimini etc...


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