# Caliber factory tour



## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

Since I posted a reply to another thread and said I had toured the Caliber Factory, a few have asked what I thought. So here are my thoughts after spending 6 hours with George McCreary (the boat builder) at his factory Jan 26th. I have to tell you, I was so grateful the builder himself took that much time with me to show me his operation and answer my 1000 questions. I had, no kidding, 4 pages front and back of questions. 
I showed up at 10am at the Clearwater, FL factory. First impressions was Wow is this is a small operation, 2 larger building on about 3 acres. For such a quality boat I guess I expect it took a bigger operation. One building housed the hull and deck molds where they are laid up The other building is where they join the two molds and finish the boat. They build about 3-4 boats at a time in various stages of development. When I was there a new Caliber 40 had just left the factory, 2 Caliber 40's and 1 Caliber 47 where being built. The Caliber 47 just had the deck and hull joined together and everyone but 3 people where there helping out in that operation. It is a huge deal at the factory when they do this. It is tripled seamed. I so impressed by this type seam and how they do it. The teamwork by the staff was impressive to say the least. 
OK on with the tour. *Lay up building*. As George said to me, it is a "Meat and Potatoes" operation. Nothing fancy. Just good old fashion fiberglass lay-up. 24 oz hand rolled fiberglass built up to various thickness depending on where the stresses are in the hull and deck. The hull and keel outer-shell are one piece. They pour steel shot impregnated in resin into the keel than seal it. If the keel ever gets holed water cannot get to the steel shot because of the resin impregnation. Below the waterline the hull is very thick and gets thinner as one moves up to the deck joint. My thoughts. I used to work many moons ago, in composite research at DuPont. So I know a little bit about fiberglass. George and I discuss at length sear forces and bending moments on the laminates he uses vs the newer technology that is out there. My concern here is laminate delamination during hull flexing. He told not one of his boats has ever delaminated and he showed why. We crawled all over the newly laid hull. Where the hull flexes they either build up the fiberglass or put stingers and bulkheads glasses into the hull. I know of 3 Calibers that have survived beaching during a hurricane and survived with just cosmetic scratches while other manufactures have sunk or totaled. Conclusion, a very solid hull. Heavy and very old fashion proven technology. 
*Deck*. Once again hand laid, 24 oz glass with, I believe, 4x1/4" marine plywood squares laid side by side. This is a heavy deck, the only negative. The positives, solid deck, water intrusion protection and hardware mounting. If a leak occurs on deck, say around some hardware not sealed properly, the water intrusion can only go those plywood squares that are affected, thus an easy fix. The resin between the squares prevents water from affecting the other plywood squares. Hardware mounting, especially those items we as owners like to add, like hanging items from the cabin top, we can just screw them in. Nice feature. All bends in the deck form are given a extra layer or two of fiberglass reinforcement. 
*Fit and Finish Building. *I will start at the bow and work my way back. 
Anchor locker, split into two areas. Holding tank is also located here next to the collision sealed bulkhead (great safety feature). I love the idea of the holding tank forward. No smell in the cabin. Also it is above the waterline, so when you can dump overboard, no need for pumps. Also the plumbing from the aft head to the holding tank is solid PVC pipe. The anchor attachment point at the bottom of the bow is impressive. Solid stainless steel, which also reinforces the bow during collisions. During rough wx anchoring I see this a a must. 
*Two fuel and two water tanks*: laid over the keel. Massive fuel and water storage for this size boat. The tanks storage are laid so one fuel and water tank can be used for coastal cruising (smaller quantities) and the other tanks for serious cruising. Great attention to deal. They are also integrated into the hull structure. Creates a double hull. The tanks take up what is traditionally the bilge. I was really worried about water intrusions on the cabin sole; from the companionway, left open hatches, etc and how it would get to the deep bilge where the keel step mast joins. Also any leaks from tru-hulls and engine compartment. This is where the tour really shines as you see the guts of a boat open up. Clever little George has built in passageways from the stern to the bow over/under and around the tanks for the water to find its way to the bilge. Normal water on the cabin sole will require mopping up when at anchor. While not my ideal way of dealing with water, it works. The one and only bilge has two pumps. One small one at the bottom with a check valve and the big 2000 GPM pump higher up. Also the whale hand pump inlet is there as well. 
*Rudder stock* - Massive massive is all I can say. Huge stainless rudder post triple supported with a water dam built in. What I like about the the design of the stock is the separate steering controls attachment points for the helm and autopilot. Since I had a autopilot that was attached to the helm steering, fall off one day from its attachment point on a nameless french boat it rendered the steering useless. I also had an autopilot lock up me as well, so this was a concern of mine. 
*Electrical system*. Well thought out. George builds into the boat home runs for future upgrades throughout the boat. Things like fans, stereo speakers, air conditioning, entertainment systems, etc. I don't think most owners, especially second hand owners know this. 
Optional SSB ground-plate - Massive. Sits on top of the entire fuel and water tanks and than glassed in. Has to be done at the factory. Runs from the plate to the back and sides of the boat are glassed in as well. 
*Air conditioners *- Boat is 90% ducted out of the factory. Again attention to detail. For real hot weather the aft cabin technically needs it own A/C. 
*Interior.* I have a problem with the layout of the galley. It is a mans galley not a women's. George and I discussed this a great length. I asked about making some changes to the locker in the aft cabin to a full length pantry and the storage behind the salon bulkhead table. I was surprised he said he would change them for me. I have heard from the past the factory didn't semi custom their boats at owners request but I guess they have changed their way of thinking of late. 
The rest of the interior is hand built and placed inside the boat one piece at a time. No pans or drop ins. Bulkheads are totally glassed in. Some pieces of the furniture are glassed in to the hull and sub-floor. Impressive. 
*Sailing hardware *- Mostly top quality stuff. George will work with you if you want something different. Has three different mast options from Sheldon to choose from. The boat is pre-wired for most common instruments, radios, autopilots and will pre-wire the radar if desire. 
*Stern rail - *In the last year or so, it has changed for the better. Because cruisers are adding more and more gear back there the Calibers now have the option of what George calls the Smart Stern rail. Basically, it has 4 oversize posts, attached to the transom. They are capped if not in use. They can be used so one can drop in dingy davits, hoist, radar/wind generator posts, and Bimini attachment points. The neat trick about it all is no need to add additional attachment points on the transom. Nice clean design. 
*Overall impressions -* Solid built boat, with lots of attention to detail that one won't notice unless you see the boat in various stages of build. I must have said that statement a hundred times during the tour. I didn't see any short cuts taken or substandard materials being used. George introduced me to most of the staff and they seems to like working there. 
One of the surprises in the tour was the boat is stern heavy as far as CG moment arm is concerned. The bow is very light and there is additional hidden ballast, in the forward starboard midsection of the boat. The boat is purposely designed to have 300 of feet of chain rode for the weight to balance it out. I wonder how many boat builder figure this in. Also, while I am talking about CG moment arms, all the heavy equipment on the boat is centerline and deep below the waterline; batteries, engine, fuel and water tanks, waste tank(above waterline), generator (option). When loaded up with supplies, with the way storage bins are located I suspect the boat is port heavy. 
Negatives, getting into the stern lazzerate, the interior layout of the galley and nav station. I believe most boats suffer getting down into the storage/equipment area under the cockpit sole easily. The galley can be doable with the suggestions I made to George. The nav station is another story. George will never redesign it I am convinced. But I am a small person; it will fit me well enough. All boats have it's compromises. Sorry for the length. 
Melissa
Looking for a boat that will love me


----------



## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

Nice report. No need to be sorry for the length, it was an interesting read.


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Great Read Mel...thanks for putting it together. Keep us posted on your further boatyard adventures. Nice to see Caliber cuts no corners in building a go anywhere boat!


----------



## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

It was a very well done report. The Navigation stations location next to the stove in the galley is indeed a strange location. I would be wary of using the stove while underway. I also recall the location of the chainplates would seem to make it difficult getting forward or aft in any type of weather, as you need to step over them while either leaning into the cabin or back into the lifelines.


----------



## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

Valiant factory is next. I have to be in Dallas area for 5 weeks for training starting Feb 15th. I love the Valiant interior but not a big fan of the cockpit and stern. 
Galley stove next to the nav station is a problem whether are anchor or at sea. Spills from cooking can get on the nav station. Solutions I have read about is erecting a piece of Plexiglas.


----------



## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

I have been a fan of Caliber for a long while now. A Caliber would defiantly be on our list when we're ready to upgrade. They seem to be well designed yachts, Thanks for the report.


----------



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Thank you Melrna nice writte up..

Its funny how yours (Americans) and ours (Europeans) tastes in cars, boats etc. are so different...also I think less Europeans are into living aboard and/or going to the Caribbean...

We are more sedentary and our sailing is normally not too far...again all of our Countries are smaller than most of your states...

I went to the Caliber web site to see (I already know Valiant), that was nice of you. Thanks


----------



## GySgt (Jun 11, 2007)

Great comments Melissa. I am jealous. Caliber is on my wish list.


----------



## FritzN (Sep 30, 2006)

*Private Message Me*

There are very significant differerences in the qualiity of construction of a Caliber and, say, a Valiant. There is a real reason why Calibers are so less expensive than a Valiant, a Passport etc. Private message me and I'll send you a speadsheet that demonstates the differences. I don't want to state these differences on this board out of my own respect for George of Caliber Yachts.

Regards,

Fritz


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Fritz...there should be LOTS of differences between the boats given the price differential of more than $100k. I can already see a few based on Mel's write up. I don't think anyone is arguing about relative quality between the boats. What NEW 40 footer built to cross oceans and do long term cruising is less expensive than a Caliber 40? That said...there aren't too many boats at any price that are built better (other than cosmetics) than a V42.


----------



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> That said...there aren't too many boats at any price that are built better (other than cosmetics) than a V42.


An Halberg-Rassy, off course, or even a Najad....with the added vantage, they don't look and sail like a shoe.


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I like the Njaads too...what do you think of the Contests relatively Giu?


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

The one thing that strikes me as a unjustifyable, ill conceived, cost cutting measure is ballasting the boat with steel shot in resin. This results in a very vulnerable low density ballast. The result is some trade off in terms of reduced stability, or carrying capacity. Assuming the resin is polyester that is a construction technique that means that a single hard grounding that pierces the encapsulation envelope will spell the beginning of the end for that boat as the iron corrodes, expands, creates new paths for water and causes further delamination from the encapsulation envelope. There's no reasonable way to stop and permanently repair that process once it begins.

Its not a design feature that I would ever want on a boat that I expected to own for a while. Given the overall price of these boats it would not have added that much to have gone to lead ballast or cast ballast. And more to the point, if they are cutting that basic a corner I would really begin to wonder other corners that they are cutting. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


----------



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> I like the Njaads too...what do you think of the Contests relatively Giu?


I can't say much because I know only one, and I only see it in the summer when I go south, and it is from 1993 if I am not mistaken. I never sailed on it because the owner is a very reserved guy (I think either Dutch or Belgian, because he speaks Flamish all the time), and he only show up in the winter...

I know it for many years now, and it seems not to get old...know what I mean?

They are Dutch, and are almost bullet proof, again, my only problem is all these boats are sturdy and built to last and bla bla bla , but they sail like shoes....most of them diesel all the time....

I tell you..If i was going to travel the World, I'd still chose the HR or the Najad..seriously


----------



## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Jeff_H said:


> The one thing that strikes me as a unjustifyable, ill conceived, cost cutting measure is ballasting the boat with steel shot in resin. This results in a very vulnerable low density ballast. The result is some trade off in terms of reduced stability, or carrying capacity. Assuming the resin is polyester that is a construction technique that means that a single hard grounding that pierces the encapsulation envelope will spell the beginning of the end for that boat as the iron corrodes, expands, creates new paths for water and causes further delamination from the encapsulation envelope. There's no reasonable way to stop and permanently repair that process once it begins.
> 
> Its not a design feature that I would ever want on a boat that I expected to own for a while. Given the overall price of these boats it would not have added that much to have gone to lead ballast or cast ballast. And more to the point, if they are cutting that basic a corner I would really begin to wonder other corners that they are cutting.
> 
> ...


Jeff..what do you think?

Have you seen the 12% NACA profile thing?

I pm you


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Jeff...I agree with you to a certain extent on the steel shot. How much more would it have cost to pour some lead in there? 5-10 grand would be well worth it. That said...there is excellent protection afforded the ballast due to the construction method and the owner builder who seems to be a respected guy says there has never been a problem. So...yeah...could be better there...but it is not a safety issue and it is done a lot better than a lot of other encapsulated keels that DO have significant issues as you have stated. I also don't like the marine plywood deck coring...but again...unusual care is taken here in design and application so I can accept that.


----------



## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

_Jeff_H;259843]The one thing that strikes me as a unjustifyable, ill conceived, cost cutting measure is ballasting the boat with steel shot in resin. This results in a very vulnerable low density ballast. The result is some trade off in terms of reduced stability, or carrying capacity._

Help me here Jeff. With 9500lbs of ballast in a 21500 displacement boat, that is a very high weight to displacement curve. That ballast doesn't include the fuel and water tanks which adds another approx 3000 lbs. This sends the stability curve through the roof. It also makes it a heavy displacement boat. In some cases a negative. From what I read this makes for a very comfortable ride especially in rough seas.

_Jeff - Assuming the resin is polyester that is a construction technique that means that a single hard grounding that pierces the encapsulation envelope will spell the beginning of the end for that boat as the iron corrodes, expands, creates new paths for water and causes further delamination from the encapsulation envelope. There's no reasonable way to stop and permanently repair that process once it begins._

#1 question on my 4 page questionnaire. I agree whole heartily that lead is better than iron. However, one has to see how they build the keel to see this isn't true. Each shot is coat in resin and than poured into the keel. The fiberglass that encapsulates the keel is very thick. The even add additional fiberglass woven in the lead edge and bottom of the keel. The whole design of an encapsulation keel vs keel bolts has been discussed here many times so I won't go into it. I will say Caliber does it right. Why the boat is just about bullet proof. The only improvement is to put Kevlar in the boat. I discuss this with George at great length. I don't know of any Caliber nor did George admit to any of any of the problems you mention. Those boats that were hard grounded during a hurricane didn't mention any thing about a busted up keel. 
I share you concerns Jeff. Why it was #1 on my list to see when I toured the factory. 
Melissa


----------



## ehmanta (Sep 12, 2006)

I talked to a Caliber dealer at the last Annapolis show and they said they would be happy to substitute lead shot for the steel, at an additional cost. They have had owners request this. 
The one aspect of Calibers deck that I did not care for was the camber on the side decks as you go forward. They seemed a bit steep and if you walk up the leeward side and if the decks a bit wet, then you're going to have a hard time walking......slip-slidin' away.....


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I won't get into the whole encapsulated keel vs bolt on controversy, but here is the deal as I see it. When you go to a low density ballast such as steel in resin, the ballast occupies a larger volume and so the center of gravity of the ballast cannot sit as low in the boat as a higher density ballast. Calibers start out with a shoal draft configuration to begin with and then uses low density ballast as well. The result is that it requires a very large ballast to weight ratio to make up for the shoal draft/ low density ballast material. Caliber's advertised 44% ballast ratio is not all that large for a boat with shoal draft and low density ballasting. But beyond that the excess weight in ballast reduces the carrying capacity while producing a significantly lesser increase in stability than would occur with the same weight of a higher density ballast.

I don't care how well the boat is built, when you have an encapsulated keel and you collide with a hard sharp immoveable object, the waterproof membrane is between a rock and a hardplace. As I have recounted here before, in a low speed collision with a rock, my family's Pearson Vanguard the 1 1/2" encapsulation envelope was simply crushed at the point of impact. 

I don't knoiw what you mean when you say they coat each piece of shot separately, but no matter how carefully constructed and poured in the ballast may be, there will be small passages through the ballast that will allow it to absorb water and make it impossible to dry out again. With iron ballast its only a matter of time before small amounts of corrosion start and spread. And the pressure of that corrision will cause cracking in the matrix and delamination of the ballast from the encapsulation envelope. On a boat that spends time in a climate where boats are hauled out of the water for the winter, and there is freeze and thaw cycles, the pressure exerted by the freezing and thawing water can greatly accellerate this process.


Since typically a large part of the strength of the keel comes from the bond between the ballast and the encapsulation, once the bond starts to break down, this is a structural issue and not a small one.

That's my point.

I had not caught on to the fact that the decks have plywood coring, another cost savings expedient. Plywood makes one of the worst deck core materials that there is. Unlike balsa, which in theory limits the spread of rot by its cell orientation, plywood spreads rot expedentially on all directions. Its not a better idea no matter how it was done with the possible exception of saturated cold molding the deck using epoxy resin. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

What makes the deck coring even worse IMHO, is the fact that it is broken into small disconnected sections... so the main benefit of using a cored deck is really negated to a good deal. A good cored deck is supposed to be very light and very stiff compared to an uncored deck of the same strength. This sounds like the way to get the worst of a cored deck and a solid deck in one... it is heavy and more complicated to make with few of the benefits of a well-designed cored deck.


----------



## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

BeneHuntalinas are junk.
Tartans and Sabers are great but you should never buy a cored hull boat.
CS's apparently never make it below the Mason-Dixon.
HR or Najad? Not in the cards for me I'm afraid. 
Calibers cut too many corners and sail like a shoe.

Man, no wonder I'm ready to give up and go buy a jet ski. 

I'm seriously getting depressed. A really nice looking Tartan 37 was listed recently that got me thinking that way again, but then I find it was surveyed and rejected based on there being some blisters on the hull. After speaking to the listing broker and a local broker that was familiar with the boat, I'm thinking its not worth going to look at even though they raved about the sound decks and beautifully maintained interior.

Then I come across a Caliber 33. Obviously it represents a different set of compromises from the Tartan, but I thought they were well made boats. I was worried that I would be disappointed with the sailing ability though. 

Since I probably will not be going coastal cruising anytime in the foreseeable future, I feel I might be better served by a boat with better light air performance for the Bay, but thought this Caliber might be worth the trip -- but maybe not?


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Chief,

Please understand that I am not accusing anyone of 'not knowing what they are talking about'. Like you I have been a fan of what Caliber seems to stand for. In so many ways, I would like a company with the seeming goals of Caliber to succeed with the idea of producing a simple, quality, good performing, purpose built cruiser at a reasonable price. When I read thier literature or visit their site, it is so seductive. So it bothers me when I think about the corners that they have chosen to cut and the implications of the shortcuts on the sailing ability and more significantly on the long term lifespan and maintainability of thier product.

Its not like Caliber is the only company employing these techniques. They are not, but somehow I expected better of them. If even the value oriented builders can afford to use cast lead or cast iron keels, high density foam cored decks, kevlar crash protection panels, then it upsets me that supposedly higher quality company like Caliber won't do the same. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


----------



## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but some are constantly negative.
It gets very monotonous when the same few people constantly criticize anything they apparently don't have. What I can't figure out is whether they either:
1. feel compelled to somehow diminish anyone else's opinion as threatening to their's, or
2. they think criticizm somehow makes them think they sound authoritative.

I'm sure my comment won't change them but it bears saying regardless.

Don
(not a Caliber owner)


----------



## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

k1vsk said:


> Everyone is entitled to an opinion but some are constantly negative.


Negative...or Critical?


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

The two "knocks" on the Caliber are the steel in the keel and the marine ply in the deck. One member has already said Caliber will put lead in the keel on request so it comes down to a marine ply deck core vs. balsa or foam. Granted...they could make a different choice...but how much risk is it? Each square is resin coated so moisture ingress can't spread and the boat (40/40LRC) has been around for 15 years or more on the market with no reports of any significant issues on the deck or the keel. 
So...we come back to the question...what other new boat in the 40 foot range exists that is better for long term cruising at $300k?? I think the next contender is $400k plus. Any other candidates?


----------



## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Short cuts are not necessarily short cuts - as just because other builders do it another way, doesn't mean another builder's method is invalid, simply because it is not universally accepted is a accepted practice one.... In the end it comes down to what kinda of customer issues actually crop up...

There is actually no substantial evidence that foam and balsa are any better longterm than using marine grade plywood. One can as easily botch a design by improper use of materials - period. Foam is water resistant not waterproof, foam used is not truly closed celled regardless of what one thinks - one has to examine all the factors involved with using the material just not apparent properties. Balsa is still a fibrous product and while more resilient to rot, doesn't mean it can't hold water and still rot...delamination of fiberglass results from stress and if water is in the system - the change in temps are enough to add internal pressures outside of normal usage to fail the construction... and it doesn't matter if it is rot...as rot is only one component of failure... In the end it comes to proper construction using the materials and proper maintenance by the owners...

To say "taking shortcuts", is an biased opinion that should be perpetuated with sound and solid examples of customer issues as a result thereof. There are none in the case of this builder...


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Plywood is a significantly poorer material as core materials go because it has the worst attributes of both balsa and foam-it allows the water to migrate along the core like foams can and it rots like balsa. It is also significantly heavier than either balsa or foam core materials. 

The point of a good cored laminate is to create a light, stiff, strong laminate--using plywood as a core material kind of defeats this goal...since the laminate will be relatively heavy compared to one cored with foam or balsa. Also, cutting the plywood into discrete squares means that a lot of the benefits of a cored laminate are given up. You're not going to get the same results as you would if you used a contiguous core material. 

IMHO, it just isn't all that sound an idea for a laminate... though, chopping the plywood up into discrete pieces does mitigate the water migration and rot issues to localized problems in the case of a leak.


----------



## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

As Jody said above, biased opinions, often couched in comments made for reasons not readily apparent or justified, are usually disguised as "critical" rather than what they are. In some cases, it appears to make some feel good about their choices all the while only making a gross generalization which most can identify for what it is.
It's been a while since we sat in an anchorage in the Marquesas with some other cruisers but I can clearly recall that no one would even think about criticizing another's boat, particularly a Caliber. Seems pretty telling when compared with the background of those who sit behind a computer professing their expertise spew constant negative comments.

By the way, we were usually too busy fixing everything on every boat regardless of what name was on the mfg plate. This includes core rot regardless of whether it was ply or balsa, both of which cause the same problem to the same extent and require equivalent repair making this seem like a frivilous issue. 

From my view, anyone who makes condescending comments is just demnonstrating how much they don't understand.


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Actually, there is very good evidence that using plywood in a deck in anything other than very limited applications should be discouraged and avoided. As I look at the various fiberglass design and engineering manuals in my collection, they all discourage the use of plywood coring except at high compression perpendicular to the deck locations and the most modern one cites the issue of the way that rot moves in all directions within plywood vs linearly in balsa. 

The only source that refers to the successful use of plywood coring is the Gougeon Brothers book and in their book they refer to plywood that has been encapsulated with epoxy, which this has not been. 

Looking at surveying books as well, I find the same caution about the widespread use of plywood in decks. 

So while it may only be the opinion of all these sources, and may only be the standard in the industry that wide spread use of plywood in decks should be avoided, and it may only be an opinion backed up, for example by conversations with owners of early Cal boats who have had to deal with the problems that come with the plywood cored sections of thier decks but did not come with the balsa cored areas, I don't see it as a biased opinion. In an industry that is now fifty years old, there seems to be a undiversal agreement that plywood is generally only used as a cheap substitute for more inert core materials. 

So while you may be right that any material can be poorly used for deck construction, and there may be a perfectly logical reason why Caliber chose the expedient of using steel shot in polyester resin, I think that it would be more useful if you can explain why you freely label something as a 'Biased opinion, if you would perhaps provide some logical explanation why Caliber is not taking a short cut by using steel shot in polyester resin for ballast, or why using plywood for deck might actually make sense somehow.

As for K1vsk, if you read this thread I suggest that you will see that there is a difference between sharing ideas including some critical ones and being condescending. If you wish to see an example of condescending comments, I suggest that you go back and read your last post. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


----------



## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Hmmmm, maybe we're reading different things into what she reported about the plywood. Nothing anyone is saying really addresses this:



> Deck. Once again hand laid, 24 oz glass with, I believe, 4x1/4" marine plywood squares laid side by side. This is a heavy deck, the only negative. The positives, solid deck, water intrusion protection and hardware mounting. If a leak occurs on deck, say around some hardware not sealed properly, the water intrusion can only go those plywood squares that are affected, thus an easy fix. The resin between the squares prevents water from affecting the other plywood squares. Hardware mounting, especially those items we as owners like to add, like hanging items from the cabin top, we can just screw them in. Nice feature. All bends in the deck form are given a extra layer or two of fiberglass reinforcement.


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm just a bit curious as to who you think is making condescending comments, other than yourself.

The problems with plywood as a core material are pretty well known.



k1vsk said:


> As Jody said above, biased opinions, often couched in comments made for reasons not readily apparent or justified, are usually disguised as "critical" rather than what they are. In some cases, it appears to make some feel good about their choices all the while only making a gross generalization which most can identify for what it is.
> It's been a while since we sat in an anchorage in the Marquesas with some other cruisers but I can clearly recall that no one would even think about criticizing another's boat, particularly a Caliber. Seems pretty telling when compared with the background of those who sit behind a computer professing their expertise spew constant negative comments.
> 
> By the way, we were usually too busy fixing everything on every boat regardless of what name was on the mfg plate. This includes core rot regardless of whether it was ply or balsa, both of which cause the same problem to the same extent and require equivalent repair making this seem like a frivilous issue.
> ...


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I for one think Jeffs and Dawgs comments about the boat are mostly accurate and I don't fault them for being negative (I would call it critical) about those areas of the boat...there are better ways to do an encapsulated keel and better ways to do a deck that would not cost that much more. I hope Caliber will decide to do this one day soon. Neither of these faults is as bad as it might be in other boats due to the care and added steps taken in assembly of these parts. The object to this boat buying forum is to hear the good and bad about every boat...a whole lot better than owner or mfr. sites where all you ere is how great a boat is. Thank goodness we have a lot of knowledgable folks that aren't afraid to step on a few toes to speak what they actually think. 
That said...the Caliber is STILL a helluva value for long term blue water cruising in my opinion.


----------



## idontwantanaccount (May 18, 2005)

*More thoughts*

I have had old boats with both plywood and balsa core...I have experienced water intrusion in both core types causing large scale rot & delamination requiring substantial re-coring. Thus, my opinion is that it is all in the build execution rather than the core type. If Caliber does a good job in hardware installation (e.g., bedding, removal of the core & replacement of the core with epoxy where penetrations occur) than I don't see a problem. If the ply is cut into small squares which are sealed, then problem areas might be limited. If I am not mistaken, Pacific Seacraft also used ply coring in that way and many of those boats are quite old. Weight of a plywood core would, of course, be the major drawback.

Regarding the steel shot keel. I am not sure what to think. It almost sounds like they pour in a slurry of resin and shot. If so, wouldn't this ameliorate Jeffs concern in the case of a grounding? Only substantial fracture of the resin some distance into the ballast that could not be chiseled out would be problematic.

Regards,
Steve


----------



## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Steve
Not sure facts are relevent here but for what it's worth, your take on the core material appears more objective. Core rot is core rot and there is no empirical evidence anywhere with which I am familiar to denote which material is actually preferable. Perhaps someone having some evidence to support their position might share it.
Debating the relative merits of epoxy impregnated steel vs lead ballast kind of misses the point in terms of hull penetration requiring repair regardless and I would seriously doubt anyone here is in a postion to speak from experience in repairing the former such that a sound judgement can be made. Theoretical arguments are often baseless 
Unless we can see some evidence to support an opinion, it is only that, an opinion and I guess it isn't acceptable to challenge biases here...


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I think the biggest problem with this type of ballast is the fairly low density it will have compared to a solid lead keel. Also, unless the slurry is fairly low in steel shot, any substantial fracture or impact is going to expose quite a bit of steel shot to saltwater, and create problems for the keel. Steel expands as it corrodes, and the forces generated by the expansion of the rusting steel shot could do quite a bit of damage, perhaps even more than the initial grounding, depending on how the keel is damaged. I believe that is what Jeff H's major complaint with a keel made up of encapsulated steel shot.


idontwantanaccount said:


> Regarding the steel shot keel. I am not sure what to think. It almost sounds like they pour in a slurry of resin and shot. If so, wouldn't this ameliorate Jeffs concern in the case of a grounding? Only substantial fracture of the resin some distance into the ballast that could not be chiseled out would be problematic.
> 
> Regards,
> Steve


----------



## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

Has anyone ever heard of a problem with water intrusion into the resin impregnated steel shot in the keel on a Caliber using the current installation process as described?

This thread reminds me of the story of two people, let's call them A and B, who live in the midwest and everyday before A leaves the house they spray themself in a mysterious mist. One day B inquires about the spray. A says "It's elephant repellent". B asks "why in the world would you spray yourself with that". A says "so I will not get trampled be elephants". B says "that's stupid, have you seen any elephants around here?" A replies "No, which proves that it works". 

My point being, if Caliber does it and there has never been a problem then one could discuss neverending possibilities and not historical adverse results using this construction and specific resin type. If other manufacturers are using the same shot and resin design and there have been issues, that would be pertinent. Before I say more, I do understand that water+steel=bad!!!!


----------



## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

Great discussion guys and gals. This is what this forum is all about. Thanks for all the imput. Bottomline for me is there is no perfect boat out there. All have compromises for the needs of the owners. Caliber builds a basic old fashion traditional boat. Many hear trout those old boats as classics and what they want or have owned. This boat is a serious bluewater cruising boat, not a race boat, not even in some circles a coastal cruising boat. Take the boat for what it is or any other boat that the manufactures make for a particular market. After all owning a boat is fixing it in exotic places, or at your local dock. 
Cheers
Melissa


----------



## idontwantanaccount (May 18, 2005)

*More thoughts*

I think substituting lead shot for steel would be preferable (especially for someone as anal as me), but I wonder if it matters enough to warrant extra concern or substantial cost. Repair of any encapsulated keel might be painful (although changing out keel bolts or repairing the keel stub for an external keel is painful too--don't ask me how I know that!) regardless of ballast material. Jeff alludes to a rather doomsday scenario in the event of a nasty grounding should the keel envelope be ruptured due to corrosion of the steel shot. Several questions occur to me and I'm not sure there are good answers short of some destructive testing (if any Caliber owner wants to donate a boat for this, let me know 'cause I am willing help). (1) Is the scenario likely to occur in a hard grounding, or would it take a truly unusual catastrophic event? (2) Would the slurry would effectively limit the extent of the corrosion to directly exposed areas rather than become pervasive as Jeff suggests? The freeze/thaw issue would occur regardless of whether the shot was steel or lead (3) Given the putatively robust fiberglass envelope, is it likely that the slurry would fracture to such an extent that the offending broken or pulverized material could not be reasonably removed and replaced so that corrosion in future years would not be an issue? Would it truly lead inexorably to a total loss or would it just be a PITA to repair? (4) Is it likely that the ballast "chunk" will break loose thereby reducing structural integrity and, more importantly for corrosion issue, provide a channel for water between the envelope and the the keel? Clearly it relies on the secondary bond, but would that be more of a concern with a single chunk of iron ballast laid in fiberglass mush in the keel?

Regarding the increased CG for the boat due to steel ballast. All things being equal it would surely be better to have lead. But then people also put mainsail furling on their mast, which admittedly seems absurd to me, with only passing regard to such matters for cruisers. The design seems to have a relatively shoal draft, but exceptionally long keel. I would guess that there is plenty of volume low in the keel to keep the CG acceptably low. I don't recall any mention of the boat being particularly tender in the reviews I have read in the distant past, although hull form also comes into play of course. The proof would be in the pudding.. sail before you buy. As far as offshore safety, does anyone know the LPS for the design? 
Ultimately, I wonder if this is no different than other than other common boat construction practices that shave expense or weight, or add complexity at the potential cost of repairability (for example, cored hulls).
Regards,


----------



## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Melissa my gripe is that Caliber does not build a "builds a basic old fashion traditional boat." I personally wish they did. In which case we would not be discussing these issues. Basic old fashioned traditional boats would have had cast ballast and not have had steel shot in polyester resin for ballast. 

With regards to the basis of my gripe with steel shot used as ballast, I personally helped remove the shattered steel shot ballast from a Bucaneer that had had a leak in the encapsulation envelope. The chunks varied from about the size of golfballs to grapefruit where the steel had rusted and torn apart the matrix. 

I personally saw with my own eyes and advised a fellow trying to rebuild a Sailstar (might have been a Bristol) Corsair where the steel shot had corroded and broken up the matrix and torn the upper encapsulation envelope away from the hull. 

I personally looked at a Seamaster 45 that the steel boiler punchings set in polyester resin that had corroded and expanded and pushed through the upper encapsulation envelope. When I saw this boat it had terrible rust stains in the bilge and when the potential buyer began to try to find the source he found a flap of thick glass that had sheered away from the hull under the pressure of the expanding steel. 

I can't recall if this deal went ahead, but at some point along the line, the owner and the potential buyer examined the steel and polyester matrix and found it shattered into large rusty pieces. I did not see the pieces but my recollection of the description was that the larger ones sounded like the size of a watermelon. The potential buyer talked about water running out of the matrix like a sponge and continuing to weep hours after it was placed in the sun next to the boat.

I personally watched how Seamaster made its ballast, mixing the steel and polyester in a cement mixer and then pouring it into the keel cavity, rodding the resin and tapping the outside of the keel cavity, and then pouring a thin layer of resin on the top with the intent that it would work its way down and fill any voids. Ultimately the matrix was glassed into the hull with heavy woven roving. 

I personally watched as one of the top yards on Long Island Sound tried to repair the damaged encapsulation envelope on my family's Pearson Vanguard, year after year, never being able to get all of the water out of the cavity, the opening getting larger and larger each year and never being able to seal the opening properly.

Back in the 1970's I personally tried to do the same repair on an encapsulated keel on a Columbia (might have been a Morgan) brought into the Direcktors Yard in Dania Florida when I worked there and we never could get it to stop seeping and so finally at the owner's direction sealed it as best we could. 

I personally have walked around boatyards and tapped out the keel on a large number of encapsulated keels and noted that as many as half of them had delaminated patches in excess of 1 foot in diameter, which is not so bad on a boat with cast lead ballast, or perhaps even a boat with cast iron ballast, but a death nell for a boat built with steel shot in polyester resin. 

So while I can't say that I have seen these problems on a Caliber perse, I have seen enough 'the elephants wandering around the neighborhood' to be concerned. 



Which all somewhat misses the point that I had tried to make in one of my earlier posts in this thread. At the heart of it I agree with George (Camaraderie) and Melissa that Caliber has the potential to build inherently good boats. Caliber does a lot of really good things, things that I looked for when I was buying my own boat; a glassed in internal framing system includes stringers, transverse frames, bulkheads and flats, chainplates through bolted to create double sheer connections, minimal liners, a hulld to deck joint consisting of a through bolted inward turning hull flange with an aluminum toerail acting as an above deck stiffner and clamp, etc. All good stuff in my book. 

But then I run into the short cuts and weigh them out and have to ask myself why a company with this much promise feels the need to cut so many important corners. We already talked the steel shot and plywood coring issuesto death. 

But there is also a third major corner cutting gripe that I have with Caliber which is their wholesale use of heavy roving. From a technical standpoint, its very hard to get a good bond between woven roving without either using some combination of a lot of non-directional material (mat), a resin rich layup, or vacuum bagging. Caliber does not appear to use vaccuum bagging. 

The problem with the other two alternatives, resin rich laminate or proportionately large amounts of non-directional fabric, is that as a building technique, this combo results in a higher fatigue prone and lower impact resistant laminate. 

And that brings me back to the good news in the original post, which seemed to suggest that as a smaller company, hopefully Caliber is a position to do build their boats without these cost cutting measures on a custom basis if a buyer asked. If I were going to plunk down the money to have boat like a Caliber built for offshore use, I would seriously consider spending the extra money to get the deck laminate changed to high modulus closed cell foam, vacuum bagged in place. I would certainly shift over to lead ballast. I would certainly revisit the hull laminate schedule and cover the cost of kevlar crash mats, and vaccuum bagging. Then you would have one hell of a boat.

But then again, maybe this is just me chasing off the elephants. 

Respectfully,
Jeff


----------



## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

Excellent "first person" information. Please continue to use the repellent. 

Do you have first hand knowledge of what may have caused the water intrusions in any of the instances you've listed. Groundings? Poor construction methods? Poor materials? You have made it clear that you have concerns with the steel shot concept. Now you have given specific examples as to why. Thank you. 

How much less repair work would be involved if instead of steel shot, a steel keel had water getting in causing the corrosion?


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Farcry-

I think the problem with steel or iron as a ballast medium is the fact that once it starts to rust, it expands quite a bit. If the ballast is encapsulated at all, then the corrosion will damage the encapsulating resin and fiberglass. Steel, once it starts to rust, can generate incredible pressures as the steel converts to rust and expands.


----------



## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

Thanks SD, I get that part and that lead is best. I was curious as to the differences to repair a swollen and rusted solid steel ballasted keel as compaired to a swollen and rusted keel using steel shot. I did a search and was unable to locate a specific thread addressing that.

Is there a substantial financial difference between using solid lead, solid steel, lead shot and steel shot?


----------



## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Ok, by the sounds of this thread I have one good thing going for my boat and one bad. My keel was 5360#'s of external lead, now covered in fiberglass to a thickness of 2". My 46 year old deck is pressure treated laminated plywood covered with canvas. The crazy part is that it's 5" thick on the foredeck. No soft spots or rot, other than three very small (less than 2") spots around some loose hardware and these spots don't go all the way through since the ply is laminated, only the top layer. At least I think it's plywood, the factory called it "Weldwood". The point I'm making is that my boat is almost 50 years old and in great shape, even though it wasn't always maintained properly. I really need to find out what that silver stuff was that they painted under the canvas when they laid it.


----------



## idontwantanaccount (May 18, 2005)

*horse not dead yet...must beat more*

Jeff
Thanks for relaying the examples from your experience. Clearly, bad things could happen, but I still wonder if it would truly be unrepairable and "spell the beginning of the end" for the boat. To me that seems like hyperbole, but I have no experience to back it up. At a minimum it seems clear that a hard grounding incident with a steel shot keel would require prompt attention. I am somewhat puzzled from your descriptions of the difficulty of removing water from keel envelopes; I would think applying a vacuum would be a very effective solution. Also, wouldn't resealing the keel limit corrosion since formation of rust (Fe2O3) requires oxygen? Sorry to keep beating the dead horse...

I guess in my time around boatyards I have not noticed any particular repair pattern for encapsulated keels per se. Certainly the vast majority of boats with encapsulated keels seem to be going strong without problem after decades of use. On the other hand, I have seen many serious and costly issues with rudders, engines, and cores in decks and hulls, which lead me to conclude that attention to construction detail in those areas might be generally more important than whether the boat has an external or encapsulated keel.

I personally would feel comfortable about the layup of the boat. The layup is not state of the art (nor claimed to be by the manufacturer), but the boat is apparently well framed with robust scantlings. The methods used are well proven with similarly constructed boats having completed multiple circumnavigations and decades of use. There is also anecdotal evidence of robust construction in a catastrophic situation from at least one owner that put his boat on the beach (s/v Mirador, if I recall). Overall, I think it's unlikely the strength of the layup will be an issue during the lifetime of its first owner and probably much longer.
Best regards,


----------



## soul searcher (Jun 28, 2006)

this is a good read, 
As always every one sees different qualities and deficiencies in different boats. 
We bought our Caliber 40 LRC a little over two yeas ago. Our boat was built in 1997 and put into service in the winter of 1998. the previous owner sailed her all over the the northern Caribbean, Bahamas, virgins, Cuba, Jamaica, Puerto Rico,....... some where around 10,000 kn.
We just got home from our trip to the Bahamas and just celebrated our boats 10th birthday and our second year of ownership and completion of over five thousand miles on the boat since we have owned her.
For the record and to the best of my knowledge our boat was built with Iron ballast and the deck is cored with plywood.
The plywood is not just marine grade glue plywood its kiln dried, blah blah blah. I don't have the name of it but its the same stuff we used on the bulkheads in my work boats. It's actually very light compared to normal plywood and it excepts resin very well it also has no voids its pretty expensive compared to the old school marine ply, but i have no idea how it compares price wise to balsa, it passes all the criteria set down by the the USCG for a structural component in a T class vessel so its fine with me. 
when I was at the factory in 2005 the squares were more like 2"x2" and were layed in with close to 3/16" spaces. I can with out a doubt report that our boat has no soft spots or delamination problems in the deck or any were else for that matter.
We have run her aground several times mostly on sand and once on rocks and have suffered no more than superficial damage to the keel. 
water egress into the the keel would take a blow of great force so the repair would have to be done properly and at that point I would be checking the entire structure of the boat from the grid to all the furniture tabbing to the bulkheads. remember that the keel is very thick and there is no keel to hull joint. the boat is one piece with a very thick layer of glass over the ballast
During the hunt stage of our boat buying experience we looked at another caliber 40 that had just returned from a seven year circumnavigation and hadn't been on the market long enough for the broker to put the shine on it. It was impressive that the boat looked as good as did and that was kind of the icing on the cake for me.
You can split hairs all day long on materials and design and lay out of different boats but for us our boat fits like a glove. 
The interior is fine, J likes the lay out, I'm satisfied that the hull is built the way I would like it to be, hand laid glass, no chopper guns no injection molding. I would rather have a boat built by human hands than machines.
I'm sure other methods are just as sound but I prefer the older ways, call me backards if you want.
For the past eighty days we sailed over two thousand miles, in every condition from five knots to 35 knots to zero knots. and some times these speeds all occurred with in minutes of each other.
People are always looking for boats that will deal with heavy air. I can tell you that the our boat was outstanding in 20 gusting to 30+ knots. It has a very easy motion in 6 to 10 foot seas that are as close as five seconds apart. and even in very short frequency waves. was very dry. 
our best run was Chub Cay to Marathon in a little less than 38 hours. Winds were 15 t0 25knots and we were on a broad reach most of the way.
worst case was 54 hours from Panama city to Tampa winds were sustained twenty knots gusting in to the thirties and we were on a close reach in six to eight foot seas at about five second intervals. this was my bad the front I was following not only stalled the bastard backed up as well. was it miserable yes. did I ever feel that the boat was strained in anyway no. would I buy the same boat again knowing what I know about Calibers yes and no.
If we were planning on a circumnavigation which we are I would feel totally secure that our boat with proper care would shine on a voyage of that proportion. If that dream becomes reality then we will keep the boat we own.
If it looks we will be sailing say just in the Caribbean then I would probably rethink the boat. 
And this is were i would agree with JeffH on one count that isn't mentioned in this thread. 
On our trip we dealt with seas to a max of 10ft on the odd set and probably the biggest sustained were eight foot again with that short gulf frequency of of five to seven seconds. 
all totaled that accounted for about 40 hours of sailing out of the entire trip.
what we dealt with most of the time was trying to get the boat to move in five to ten knots TWS. What this meant to Us was that we had our asymmetric up a lot on this trip. I like flying the chute as much as anyone but it is a little unnerving at night. From Key west to Tampa we flew the spinnaker. Its about two hundred miles. 
That was the longest run. But we flew it for twelve to fourteen hours at a time on several other occasions .
I think only on one occasion did we have conditions were the main was out all the way the jib(120%) was out stay-sail was up and we we running at 6.5 to 8 knots and it only lasted about 12 hours. 
This is were if I had it to do all over again I might opt for a more performance oriented boat. something with better light air capabilities would have been easier on us for a good portion of the trip. but the rub on most of these boats is storage and tankage. we traveled for two and a half months and we never had to lug fuel or water or buy groceries other than fresh. and in the Bahamas at 5.50 a gallon for fuel and .50$ a gallon for water that means a lot.
just to summarize the construction in my opinion is sound, a little behind the times yes but that's OK with me. I'm as proud of my boat as any of you are of yours. you can pull apart any boat and find fault with anything in any given circumstance. Kevlar vests will stop bullets to a point but wont stop a sharp knife or a broad head shot out of a bow.
.
So I rambled here a little but hopefully you'll take it for what it's worth. which is nothing more than another persons opinion.


----------



## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Great write up Matt. Thanks...


----------



## ehmanta (Sep 12, 2006)

Matt, 
Thanks for your input......The two issues that Jeff has a problem with have been addressed. And we ALL know, balsa coring NEVER has an issue with rot and delamination....yeah right!!!!   
Also, I would be curious to know if Caliber properly protects the hardware mounting thru-holes with an epoxy before bedding the hardware. This would even further protect the core....Tom


----------



## soul searcher (Jun 28, 2006)

Let me take a minute to say that I have a lot of respect for Jeff's opinions
and always enjoy reading his posts but I do take issue with the term "short cuts" by the same standard in this thread every one that doesn't own a boat built with carbon fiber and Kevlar has been short cut by the manufacturer.
Why would they use vinylester or epoxy resin when carbon fiber is available? If we are going to get into the 21st century then lets go all out.
That term implies that a lot of negativity That may lead some one to believe that these boats are simply thrown together which they are not.
They are very well thought out. most every thing on them is positioned within reason for easy maintenance. most of the features that the new models come with are a direct result of George McCreary listening to his owners and implementing changes that they have come up with in their travels. That alone sets him in very high regard with me. 
Tom,
I haven't had problems with any fasteners on the boat so I can't tell you what they used to bed them. If I remember correctly And I do suffer from CRS on occasion none of the major openings, hatches, ports, mast collars, have core near them. the rest of the deck hardware, turning blocks, dorade guards,tracks, toe rails, basically everything fastened to the deck is through bolted.
I know this is the case on my boat because I have been contemplating up gradeing my turning blocks to ball bearings and can feel the nuts through the head liner on them and the dorade guards and the rest I can either see or feel and I have not quite talked myself into removing the head liner to changeout the blocks. It gives the cabin overhead a nice clean look but it doesn't give you easy access to the backing plates and bolts. I can just imagine the look on the missus's face when I tell her I want to take out the pretty head liner. 
Mellisa,
We cooked some under way and I drink a lot of coffee. we have not to this date had anything come off the stove and end up on the nav station. (knocking on my wood head as I type.)
the boat is heavy when loaded on the port side. we have a small list to port.
I think that means that the canned goods need to go under the starboard settee or I need more tools on the boat. As I mentioned above we were gone for two and a half months. We took what we thought we would need and had a ton of room left over and only consumed half the groceries we brought. but neither of us are big eaters.
the simple truth is when its rough you probably won't be cooking anyway. we ate sandwiches and snacks on rough crossings. and cooked carefully on calm ones.
The near legendary Caliber fourty nav station. 
I have said this before and I will say it again here.
when its rough that little place is your best friend. you can wedge yourself in and do what you need to do there without having to hang on with your hands. My radar is mounted in the panel above the desk and my lap top sets on the desk on a non skid rubber pad.(it never moved) Its very convenient with the port above the seat from the cockpit you can bend down look through the port and see the computer and the radar. and when we were in close quarters one of us can talk to the other through the port. when things are settled you do most of you work on the table where you can spread out charts. and books and the computer.
one of things that I thought would work but didn't.
sleeping in the quarter birth under way was nearly impossible it was comfy enough but with the pilot mounted behind the foot of the berth and the wind generator pole mounted to the deck on that side of the boat it was just too noisy. make sure your settee cushions are comfy and you have lots of pillows, ours are.
one of the things that worked like a charm was the brookhouse mutyplexer that combined all my electronic speaking different languages into nmea sentences that came through a usb cable to the lap top it was flawless and gave me a lot of data on screen with my max sea software. The max sea needs some up grades but all in all it served its purpose.
hear is a pic so you get a better idea of what it looks like.








and one more just to help keep dreams alive. substitute any boat of your liking just go! even if its only for a weekend!








Hope this helps
P.S. any body that thinks the Caliber site is suductive has been spending too much time in the bathroom with Rosey


----------



## Melrna (Apr 6, 2004)

Thanks Matt for your input. I agree with you but I didn't want to say anything earlier due to the fact I don't own one. You being a owner has that credibility where I don't. As far all the rest of the opinions stated here, again, all boats are not ideal, each has it compromises. When owning a boat we understand those compromises and always have a work around. 
The bottom line is I truly believe that the Caliber boat is built well, with the factory understanding where their compromises are and putting in safe guards as best as they can to overcome them. Can the boat be improved. Absolutely! But that can be said with any boat. 
What I find interesting is those that are Hunter ( and other mass production builders) bashers, Hunter uses most of the building techniques that were expressed here. Granted the fit and finish in the interior isn't up to the caliber of the boats we have been taking about, but again we weren't talking about fit and finish. 
As far a light air performance, I think what the board considers true bluewater cruisers, these boats aren't speed demons and are not going to win any races. But again, when one is cruising, it is the journey that is important, not the destination. 
Melissa


----------



## TAK (Jul 14, 2003)

Thanks Matt and Melissa.. 

I enjoyed the comments and insights.. 
I am happy with my "new" Caliber and look forward to many years with her.


----------



## sifucarl (Jan 26, 2008)

This thread has been a very good read, and since Cailber has been at the top of my wish list I'm glad I found it. Yes I believe their website is seductive, but can't you say that of any manufacturers site. Thats what they're supposed to do, make you think their product is the best.

As a newbie I have no opinion or experience to share. What I rely on is the personal accounts of the old salts and documented facts. Of course the old salts accounts should probably be taken with a certain amount of consideration for the fact that there may be some biases built in.

That said, it sure would be interesting to hear from more Caliber owners, or at least those that have actual experience with them. Jeff's personal experience with the steel shot really gives some pause for thought.

Carl


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Melissa,

Now that you *are *a Caliber owner, would you care to comment on any of the opinions (favorable or critical) from your new perspective?

- Ed


----------



## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

Ed, I am not sure she is a Caliber owner. Have you read her other thread ?


----------



## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Oooops! Sorry that I missed post 22 in that thread. I wondered why the Caliber in question still was listed in YW... Now I know.

Never mind.


----------



## sorcerer33 (Jun 25, 2007)

*Plywood core*

I'm looking for a boatyard in the Long Island N. Shore area that can repair a rotted plywood cored cockpit sole on a 1993 Caliber 40. The binnacle guard is the culprit in this situation. I'm seeing some advantage to a foam cored deck but I decided against buying a Sabre or a Freedom with balsa cored hulls. Water intrusion there would be a bigger nightmare. I've had my boat in the water for about 2 weeks and I read threads like this one with trepidation! -- Chuck


----------



## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Sorcerer-

You really should start a new thread, and not hijack this one, since your post has NOTHING to do with the Caliber Factory Tour. Also, highly recommend you read the post in my signature.


----------



## danielgoldberg (Feb 9, 2008)

sorcerer33 said:


> I'm looking for a boatyard in the Long Island N. Shore area that can repair a rotted plywood cored cockpit sole on a 1993 Caliber 40. The binnacle guard is the culprit in this situation. I'm seeing some advantage to a foam cored deck but I decided against buying a Sabre or a Freedom with balsa cored hulls. Water intrusion there would be a bigger nightmare. I've had my boat in the water for about 2 weeks and I read threads like this one with trepidation! -- Chuck


Subject to getting in trouble for responding to this question in this thread (sorry Cam, CD and Dawg), does it need to be the Long Island shore? Or would a yard on Long Island Sound be sufficient? For that kind of job, there are several yards that could do the work. You could try McMichael's in Mamaroneck (call Helmut the yard manager, and tell him I told you to call). In Huntington, Long Island is Willis marine; I've never used them, but David Willis is a really good guy and they have a good reputation. In Stonington, CT there is Dodson's Marina, which has an excellent reputation as well. If you're willing to travel a little bit, you could try Paul Dennis at Warren River Boatworks in Warren, RI (up Narragansett Bay); Paul does absolutely outstanding work, and counter-intuitively is a little less expensive.

There are many other yards in the Long Island Sound area that have excellent reputations that easily could deal with a cockpit sole delamination problem. Keep in mind that the good yards never are cheap.


----------

