# How big a holding tank vs. camping



## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

MikeOReilly started about a thread what amenities are required to make being on a boat a step above camping.

I commented that a good, reliable head is high on my list. This comes from my experience actually camping (cabin without a toilet = camping, cabin with a toilet = condo), and from a charter I was on two years ago.

There were seven of us on a beautiful 39' 3-cabin Jeanneau. That's a bit tight, but I don't think it's an unreasonable number of people for a 3-cabin boat.

Except… for the 22-gallon holding tank! We were only out for three days and we were taking conservation measures like running a couple dinghy trips over in the morning so people could poop in the outhouses on shore, and when we were on shore for hikes or bonfires reminding everyone to pee before we went back to the boat, but we still filled that tank.

So my question is: What's the rule-of-thumb for holding tank size? I know it will vary from person to person and situation to situation, but assuming moderate beer consumption and a minimum of three days between pumpouts, how many gallons per person should a holding tank be?


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I've been using a bucket ever since cracking a hodling tank in heavy weather the boat was ruined for life, it was a 3 year old Ericson 38. I will never again own a boat with a holing tank NEVER!


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

where do those of us with "fermentopotties" (composting toilets) sit?


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Art, I believe you still sit on the head.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

barefootnavigator said:


> I've been using a bucket ever since cracking a hodling tank in heavy weather the boat was ruined for life, it was a 3 year old Ericson 38. I will never again own a boat with a holing tank NEVER!


I don't care if the Pardeys did it, YUCK! Anyway, I'm on the Great Lakes and inlands waters, so bucket-and-chuck-it wouldn't be legal for me.



mad_machine said:


> where do those of us with "fermentopotties" (composting toilets) sit?


Square on the pot, I hope!


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

jimgo said:


> Art, I believe you still sit on the head.


D'oh! You beat me to it.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

Wag Bags. WAG BAG® | Cleanwaste Products We have never used -- nor ever desire to use -- the marine head and holding tank in our boat. Yuck.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

1-3 gallons pp/per day, with 2 being a fair average depending on the head and the water/beer consumption. You can get one by dry bowling and conservation flushes, and three after Mexican Food night.

There is a rule amongst cruisers:

If its yellow, let it mellow. If its brown, flush it down.

Brian


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## jimgo (Sep 12, 2011)

Caberg, I'm not sure the WagBags are for me, but I'm curious wher eyou get them. All I see is a link to the DOD Mall and the GSA Advantage site. I'm not in the government, so I can't order from either of those.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Cruisingdad said:


> 1-3 gallons pp/per day, with 2 being a fair average depending on the head and the water/beer consumption. You can get one by dry bowling and conservation flushes, and three after Mexican Food night.
> 
> There is a rule amongst cruisers:
> 
> If its yellow, let it mellow. If its brown, flush it down.


Since that makes for a stinky boat we have a different rule. If you are a boy and aren't in a marina then you pee over the side (legal, even though bucket and chuck it is not).

A 20 gallon tank lasts 5-7 days of cruising for us, a sample size of one couple.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

jimgo said:


> Caberg, I'm not sure the WagBags are for me, but I'm curious wher eyou get them. All I see is a link to the DOD Mall and the GSA Advantage site. I'm not in the government, so I can't order from either of those.


Widely available online, couple of links below. If you think about it, the gross factor of sealing a bag of your own waste is way less (or should be) than dealing with hoses and tanks filled with a group of people's waste that sits for days or weeks at a time. But, gross factor aside, we mainly do it because of the efficiency and ease of not having to maintain and empty the marine system/tank.

Cleanwaste WAG BAG Waste Bags - Package of 12 at REI.com


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Alex W said:


> Since that makes for a stinky boat we have a different rule. If you are a boy and aren't in a marina then you pee over the side (legal, even though bucket and chuck it is not).
> 
> A 20 gallon tank lasts 5-7 days of cruising for us, a sample size of one couple.


So call it 20 gallons for 2 people for 6 days = 1.666 gallons/person/day, utilizing the male-over-the-rail conservation technique. This seems in line with CruisingDad's 2 gallon average.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Alex W said:


> Since that makes for a stinky boat we have a different rule. If you are a boy and aren't in a marina then you pee over the side (legal, even though bucket and chuck it is not).
> 
> A 20 gallon tank lasts 5-7 days of cruising for us, a sample size of one couple.


42 last 5-7 days for us, 4 people. Like I said, 1-3g, pp/day with 2 being the average.

Brian


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Our 25 gal tank would last the two of us about three weeks, but that's with most liquids going over the side (90% of his, 50% of hers), and very judicious use of water for flushing. 

It's one of the big reasons I've gone to a composted.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Boy you guys are good. I ve a lot to learn. Have choice of fresh or salt. Use fresh always except when offshore and need to conserve potable water. Much less stink and I think easier on the system. Wife insisted on electric so have one electric one manual both with macerators. Down side is even with three settings on electric use way more water then you folks are posting. Upside is have two holding tanks. The one for electric fills first. Have tank monitors. When other gets near usually time for fuel or pump out or a great excuse to go outside the limit. Conclusion is if tank size is a concern don't put in electric head. Have had guests push button repetitively fascinated by the flush until told to stop.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

Funny, the discussions between the ladies at the yacht club somehow always get around to poo and holding tanks. Something that was an eye opener for us was the 18 gal tank in our specifications only measured out to a paltry 13 gallons! The two of us are very comfortable for a weekend but really have to practice conservation when we are off the grid for a week or more. We installed a tank watch system for obvious reasons. When you are using the 1-3 gallons per day metric is that assuming a one gallon flush per use? My friend who has a boat by a European builder also discovered his tank was less than advertised.


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## ericb760 (Apr 11, 2012)

I'm surprised this isn't a bigger thread. A lot of us "day sailors" struggle with this problem. We don't "cruise" in the real sense. But, we do spend several days at a time on our boats. And, we have female crew, which is all I'm going to say about that. It's a three day weekend for me, and my one goal is to tear out my 70's era head, and then decide which way I'm going to go in regards to "solid waste". I'm looking forward to reading the responses in this thread. So far, I'm leaning towards a composting head. Although, the aforementioned poop bags look like a contender as well.


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

We keep a spray bottle of citrus holding tank deodorizer in the head, like this stuff: 
Camco 41197 TST 1 Gallon Orange Power Toilet Treatment

spray the yellow , and let it mellow- no stinky head, no full holding tank too quickly. our 10 gallon tank lasts the two of us a week or so.


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## remetau (Jan 27, 2009)

Our 15 gal tank lasts the two of us a week. We wash down solids and let liquids flow on their own. We don't use the salt intake unless we are out and going directly overboard. Inland the thru-hull is closed and we use the shower head to rinse the solids. I would prefer a bigger tank, but that's we have.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Alex W said:


> Since that makes for a stinky boat we have a different rule. If you are a boy and aren't in a marina then you pee over the side (legal, even though bucket and chuck it is not).
> 
> A 20 gallon tank lasts 5-7 days of cruising for us, a sample size of one couple.


Actually the bucket is legal as long as its not designed for pee and doesn't have a toilet seat on it it still comes under the loose rules of direct discharge but I still have and use my porta potty for poo underway and on the hook pee is fine but I hate to see floaters in the water I'm anchored in its just not nice to do in port. with just poo I get about a month for my 8 ltr porta potty and pump out stations are all over the place here in Puget sound I use sea water for flushing it


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## fryewe (Dec 4, 2004)

The 8 gallon holding tank I had in my Norsea was the biggest I could get into the space available. Filled up way too fast and was waa-a-y too much trouble. It was the "controlling" system on the boat when in inland waters. When poop - not potable water/not fuel/not food/not beer and rum and coffee - becomes controlling then a solution is needed.

So we starting using Wag Bags. Better...but still a PITA.

My C-head was the solution and I will never go back to a holding tank. Not much greater effort than the toilet on the farm. Still have to clean it. Don't have to use Rid-x for the septic. Never have to wiggle the flush lever when the valve starts to leak. Never have to adjust the lever-to-chain connection when the throw is too small or too great for efficient flushing. Never have to replace the "guts" of the tank because of leaks or corrosion of internal parts. Never have to worry about the wax seal leaking.

Doesn't feel like camping to me. YMMV.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Camping is, if you take it in, you take it out, including the POO! Had to do that on Mr Rainer. Ther joke up there is about blue bags. Blue for the poo, and clear to make sure the blue does not leak into the back pack! With the typical one or two per day......well anyway. Not an issue with the liquid part of the equation. 

It would be nice if the holding tank was larger than the water tank........but, none the less, ANY tank is better than the one in my 8' pram I had............

Marty


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I've used the bucket and wag bags for years and I can tell you 5 minutes a day really isn't that big of an issue. Having 20 gallons of **** under your mattress is third world nasty. Nothing like going on a pristine yacht and smelling ****.


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## Argyle38 (Oct 28, 2010)

blt2ski said:


> Camping is, if you take it in, you take it out, including the POO! Had to do that on Mr Rainer. Ther joke up there is about blue bags. Blue for the poo, and clear to make sure the blue does not leak into the back pack! With the typical one or two per day......well anyway. Not an issue with the liquid part of the equation.
> 
> It would be nice if the holding tank was larger than the water tank........but, none the less, ANY tank is better than the one in my 8' pram I had............
> 
> Marty


Are you serious?? You are not allowed to leave a deposit on Mt. Rainer? To me, camping (quite a bit in western PA and Ohio, when I lived there) was dig a hole, do your business, cover it up and be on your way. As natural as the setting sun. My area was all forest though, I guess Mt. Rainer is a lot of rock and glacier, maybe that's why there are special rules. Are you rules for Mt. Rainer for just above the tree line? (Assuming there is a tree line.)

On topic: For Argyle, we currently have a 9 gal. holding tank which is not sufficient. It's location is also not sufficient. A PO placed the tank in a cabinet in the V-berth. So if the tank grows a bit ripe, the V-berth get's the brunt of it. I'm currently working on designing and installing a 25-30 gal. holding tank under the cabin sole, beneath the head and V-berth. It will have much better ventilation and any smell will be confined to the bilge area.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

It really gets me that humans are the only animal not permitted to relieve themselves on a mountain. There is a right and wrong way to do it, so that others don't have to sleep on the fresh. However, do some believe we don't belong on earth? 

Back to holding tanks. While I've done it, I do not think its a good idea to leave urine in the bowl, if you have an electric macerating head. I'm trying to picture the setup, but I'm pretty sure the jocker valve is after the metal macerator, which will corrode in time.

Flushing clear water is the primary key to keeping the head and hoses from smelling. Salt water is fine, if it doesn't lie around long enough for organisms to die, as long as its clear and all waste has been flushed to the holding tank. With a vented loop above the water line, it takes a minimum of 1 gallon per flush to do so. More, for some reason, if you have an electric head.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

newhaul said:


> Actually the bucket is legal as long as its not designed for pee and doesn't have a toilet seat on it it still comes under the loose rules of direct discharge


I don't believe that is true. Any intermediate *ahem* resting place is an MSD.

On Auspicious, electric toilet that can flush with fresh or raw water and a 40 gallon holding tank. That lasts us (2 people) 5 - 7 days. Most of the time we run through an Electroscan and are rarely in a NDZ long enough to fill the holding tank. Holding tank gravity dumps outside the 3-mile limit.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> I don't believe that is true. Any intermediate *ahem* resting place is an MSD.
> 
> Actually here is the definition of an MSD according to the EPA an MSD is any equipment for I stilation on board a vessel which is designed to receive, retain,treat or discharge sewage and a bucket is neither installed or designed to receive sewage. Water.epa.gov/polwaste/vwd/vsdmsd.cfm sorry can't cut and paste but that's the epa web site I referenced I'm not advocating it I use my porta potty but it is legal by definition of the epa


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> It really gets me that humans are the only animal not permitted to relieve themselves on a mountain. There is a right and wrong way to do it, so that others don't have to sleep on the fresh. However, do some believe we don't belong on earth?


ever seen the stuff we eat? Aside from pets, we are the only species that consistently eats stuff that many species would consider poisonous. You may think that your poop is benign, but it is not, it is full of the stuff our bodies could not process.

why do you think it smells so badly?

And before anybody goes on about direct discharge, I can remember when marinas smelled like cesspools. there -is- a reason they make us have some way to store our **** on board


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

barefootnavigator said:


> I've used the bucket and wag bags for years and I can tell you 5 minutes a day really isn't that big of an issue. Having 20 gallons of **** under your mattress is third world nasty. Nothing like going on a pristine yacht and smelling ****.


Then you have a holding tank problem. My boat doesn't smell like that. And there is no chance in Hades that my wife (and hey, I will throw myself in that category too) would poop in a bucket permanently. If there is a massive head failure, hey, we do what we gotta do. But permanently???? Not thanks.

I am not going to tell you what to do on your boat... but if it had been me, I would have fixed the holding tank and head issues. Frankly, it is not that expensive to do.

Anyways, my opinions.

Brian


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Ive been a yacht broker on and off for 25 years and of the thousands of boats I have been on they all smell like do do you are just used to it or don't have a sensitive nose 
I will say though where you think pooping in a bucket is a nasty affair I think sucking 25 gallons of poop out of a boat to be a deal breaker  You say potato I say potato??? something like that


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Cruisingdad said:


> And there is no chance in Hades that my wife (and hey, I will throw myself in that category too) would poop in a bucket permanently.


Word! Digging catholes using thunderboxes when backpacking is bad enough, I'm trying to imagine me explaining to my wife that the toilet solution I've come up with for the boat is that she uses a bucket with a bag, then zips it up and throws it in the trash....



barefootnavigator said:


> Ive been a yacht broker on and off for 25 years and of the thousands of boats I have been on they all smell like do do you are just used to it or don't have a sensitive nose


Really?

You've been around boats much longer than me, I was on my first keelboat in the fall of 2009, but... None of the boats I've sailed on have smelled like holding talk. Some have smelled "boaty" like they've been closed up and have a little standing water, but none have smelled like holding tank. Maybe I've just been very lucky.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

barefootnavigator said:


> Ive been a yacht broker on and off for 25 years and of the thousands of boats I have been on they all smell like do do you are just used to it or don't have a sensitive nose
> I will say though where you think pooping in a bucket is a nasty affair I think sucking 25 gallons of poop out of a boat to be a deal breaker  You say potato I say potato??? something like that


Our boat does NOT smell like it. Likely what you are smelling is the anaerobic bacteria and sulfur smell common with flushing as they grow in the fresh water line and populate. THat has nothing to do with poo. A fix for that is simple: put in a inline strainer with a CL tab. I have done this for years and it has left my boat smelling 'boat-show new'. Before that, my boat had a smell which I traced to that. It wipes out that bacteria and what is often associated with poop smell. Just so you know, that sulfur smell will hang around the inside of a boat for a while. I wonder if it may be heavier than air? Anyways, a well built and maintained holding tank system should not stink. It should be a fully closed system that vents to the outside. If it does you may have hose problems, aeration problems, maintenance problems, or a small leak somewhere.

As far as preferring to bag your poop versus pumping it out, I won't argue that point as it is a personal decision. I guess you do know when your tank is full though! (smile)

BTW, I have been cruising since 2000, raised kids aboard basically since birth, and owned fixed keels since the mid 90s or so. I am not new to this either.

Brian


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Been doing this near on 35y and have been pooping longer than that. Boats can have boat smell but never poop smell. Poop smell means something is wrong. May be as simple as clogged vent line or as bad as need for a rebuild. Knock on wood never had a failed leaking holding tank. Right now need to shorten sani pipe from head discharge to holding tank as it's too long giving a small amount of back flow. Once done no reason for smell. On prior boats have had to add enzyme but now with fresh H2O flush additives not needed. If you have smell or are needing to add things constantly may want some advise as to what's going on. Could be the piping- common with old boats or production boats the best piping was not used.
Also found the tea tree stuff really works to get rid of boat smell. That and good ventilation with a full wash down of all surfaces with vinegar once a blue moon.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Maybe its just my big nose  Its really big.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

I'm a member of a very small minority of people who prefer a porta potti to any other system. People are reluctant to consider a porta over a holding tank system, but why anyone would prefer a bucket to a porta potti is beyond me, unless you think carrying a bucket of poo past your friends in the cockpit is a good conversation starter. Don't trip! And really, you'd rather sit on a bucket than a toilet seat?!?

Our porta never smells, unless it's left fairly full for a long time. A quick dump and clean and the smell is GONE. Easy to dump it...our Thetford has a spout that swings out and allows easy draining into a shoreside toilet. You just carry it there like a briefcase. You can label it "affordable healthcare act". 

No worries if someone wants to use too much TP or drops a feminine product or two in there. Try that with a holding tank.

I, too, am on the great lakes where discharge in the water is not legal, but I've found myself out on the lake with no other boats in sight and with a full porta potti. You'll never guess what happened next!

A good porta potti is 75 bucks, and they tend not to break. Obviously, no repair can ever cost you more than 75 bucks.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

mad_machine said:


> ever seen the stuff we eat? Aside from pets, we are the only species that consistently eats stuff that many species would consider poisonous. You may think that your poop is benign, but it is not, it is full of the stuff our bodies could not process.


While we ingest pharmaceutical poisons and they remain in our waste, we are far from the only species that eats stuff other species would find poisonous. That's totally biased.



> why do you think it smells so badly?


The gut flora necessary for a carnivore's digestion is what causes the odor. It's actually worse in some other carnivorous species.



> And before anybody goes on about direct discharge, I can remember when marinas smelled like cesspools. there -is- a reason they make us have some way to store our **** on board


There should be zero discharge in confined harbors for obvious reasons. There is zero scientific evidence of the need to be 3 miles offshore.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Maybe its an age thing, I primarily sail with girls in the their mid to late 20's none of them have ever complained. When under way I have a nice big boomkin and the girls just straddle it, its friggin art


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

barefootnavigator said:


> Maybe its an age thing, I primarily sail with girls in the their mid to late 20's none of them have ever complained. When under way I have a nice big boomkin and the girls just straddle it, its friggin art


Don't want to get too detailed, but my 51 year old "girl" managed to go over the side without a lot of trouble or fuss. It was the only way we were able to manage with our small 25 gal. holding tank.

Now that we have a composting head, it doesn't matter.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

barefootnavigator said:


> Maybe its just my big nose  Its really big.


Its all good. Just giving you my perspective. I have just been doing this a long time (my entire adult life). Others have different perspectives.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Siamese said:


> I'm a member of a very small minority of people who prefer a porta potti to any other system. People are reluctant to consider a porta over a holding tank system, but why anyone would prefer a bucket to a porta potti is beyond me, unless you think carrying a bucket of poo past your friends in the cockpit is a good conversation starter. Don't trip! And really, you'd rather sit on a bucket than a toilet seat?!?
> 
> Our porta never smells, unless it's left fairly full for a long time. A quick dump and clean and the smell is GONE. Easy to dump it...our Thetford has a spout that swings out and allows easy draining into a shoreside toilet. You just carry it there like a briefcase. You can label it "affordable healthcare act".
> 
> ...


And how many days or weeks can you stay out without a dump? I have owned porta-potties. You are even more restricted than us.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Minnewaska said:


> While we ingest pharmaceutical poisons and they remain in our waste, we are far from the only species that eats stuff other species would find poisonous. That's totally biased.
> 
> The gut flora necessary for a carnivore's digestion is what causes the odor. It's actually worse in some other carnivorous species.
> 
> There should be zero discharge in confined harbors for obvious reasons. There is zero scientific evidence of the need to be 3 miles offshore.


While i agree with many of your posts, i disagree with this.

Many of the virus' we release in our waste are harmful to marine life - esp. coral. I read some publications on this and i apologize if I do not have the links.

I personally have witnessed a large decline in reefs. I have seen bleaching where before there was none. The ocean seems to be in decline to me. I have no scientific evidence for this my friend, just my years here and the comments from many of my cruising friends.

I am afraid what is out there is but a shadow of what was before, and our children may see a shadow of that.

That is one huge reason why i do what i do with my kiddos when most think we are crazy... And at great cost to us.


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## TerryBradley (Feb 28, 2006)

jimgo said:


> Caberg, I'm not sure the WagBags are for me, but I'm curious wher eyou get them. All I see is a link to the DOD Mall and the GSA Advantage site. I'm not in the government, so I can't order from either of those.


Dunno 'bout wag bags but U can find Double Duty bags at your local Walmart camping section. They do the same thing. Odorless and just pitch them in the garbage.


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## Markwesti (Jan 1, 2013)

I have a rather big holding thank on my boat (40 gals) it lasts us about 9 days , 2 people . 
I have only 1 rule on my boat no #2.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

Markwesti said:


> I have a rather big holding thank on my boat (40 gals) it lasts us about 9 days , 2 people .
> I have only 1 rule on my boat no #2.


9 days with no number twos that proves it you are full of it :laugher :laugher


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Markwesti said:


> I have a rather big holding thank on my boat (40 gals) it lasts us about 9 days , 2 people .
> I have only 1 rule on my boat no #2.


9 days, 2 people, 40 gallons ... you two must drink A LOT of beer


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## gamayun (Aug 20, 2009)

If you have a head that flushes, you ain't camping...


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

For those wondering about the Rainer part, that is ON the glaiciers etc. Not too many other animals besides us humans. Well, a few birds, not many........

along with, one can see the trailer if one looks hard enough from teh paper/poo etc along the side of the main trailer if you can call it that, going up the main route on the glaciers one goes up.

At muir, they have a really expensive outhouse, that literally has the ability to dehydrate the poo etc. Now it is one helicopter trip to remover the wast a year vs one a month.

BUT, as one says, we are all donuts, goes in one end, out the other!

Marty


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

my bucket flushes just fine. Kinda funny were worried about putting a little poo in the water when we paint all holly hell of toxic **** on our bottoms  no pun intended


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

ive seen fish gobble up poo(not saying whos) like it where shrimp scampi!
dont see them complaining

in fact they looked quite satisfied....je

and yeah why is poo bad when millions of boat all over the world have bottom paint


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

I believe a lot of the boats that have a sewer smell down below are fitted with expandable bladders and not solid boxes for holding tanks. My boat did when I bought her and we had that mild but still nasty odour until I ripped he bladders out. The problem with bladders is that they're generally not vented and thus the generate anaerobic bacteria which smells waaaaay worse that aerobic bacteria.

I also support the belief that a properly installed holding tank will not smell in the boat - we have many boaters we know with holding facilities and their boats always smell fresh and clean.

We have two heads, one pumps directly to the sea and is used for urine only when close to land or anchored and for anything else only when we're at sea. The second head will (haven't got to it yet) get a solid 60 litre Vetus tank installed with solid PVC tube, not the flexible "filter" pipe (I call it filter pipe because it will eventually permeate the smell of the system into the boat. It may take shorter or longer but it will happen.

There are large areas in New Zealand where it is illegal to anchor, even for an hour, without holding facilities. We have to at present buck that rule but do so very responsibly and hope we don't get nabbed.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Omatako, if you grab a bucket and pack of wag bags "you don't have to use them" it will make you legal in any anchorage in the world. You can continue to live a happy life that you are but they cant nab you  do a bit of research on it.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

barefootnavigator said:


> Omatako, if you grab a bucket and pack of wag bags "you don't have to use them" it will make you legal in any anchorage in the world. You can continue to live a happy life that you are but they cant nab you  do a bit of research on it.


If my toilet facilities in any way revolved around a bucket, even in an emergency, I would be sailing alone. My wife does not [email protected] into a bucket - not for anything!! And frankly I find the process repulsive too. Please refer to the currently running "camping" thread. Why I insist on hot showers and then be ready to [email protected] into a bucket/bag? 

But to your point, wrapping your feces in a plastic bag essentially represents a holding facility. I'm just not sure that I want to store a lot of dumped-in plastic bags aboard until I get to a place where they can be re-dumped.

And how do you separate the urine from the lumpy bits? Or do they eventually just emulsify into a sort of a soft porridge? Or do you pee over the side first then dump into the bag?

The more I look at that process the more repulsed I become.


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## JoeLena (May 14, 2012)

Omatako said:


> And how do you separate the urine from the lumpy bits? Or do they eventually just emulsify into a sort of a soft porridge? Or do you pee over the side first then dump into the bag?
> 
> The more I look at that process the more repulsed I become.


uke

Stated like a poet, sums it up nicely.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Like I said in my post you don't have to use it it just makes you legal. I'm far too civilized to store feces in my living quarters. Not even a dog poops where it lives.  to each their own


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

barefootnavigator said:


> Like I said in my post you don't have to use it it just makes you legal. I'm far too civilized to store feces in my living quarters. Not even a dog poops where it lives.  to each their own


So now that you've pooped in a bag, reached down to seal the bag, and are holding a bag of poop in your hands, what do you do with it?

You say you don't store it in your living quarters, but I'm sure it's illegal to toss it overboard.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Never mind go ahead and get fined for your illegal head  You can lead a horse to water but...


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I phrased it sarcastically, but it was an honest question. What do you do with your full wag bags?


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## JoeLena (May 14, 2012)

It comes down to personal ideals for sure. Does not bother me if someone else does it, but I would not ask my wife to go in a bucket unless a dire emergency existed. Nor would I appreciate being a guest on a boat with a bucket and bag.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Well for one thing we don't use them, they are for emergency which has been written by many people here. I guess I have changed enough diapers in my life that zipping a bag does not really bother me if I have to do it here and there. The bags have a powder an almost no sent. I tested mine on the hottest day of the year closed the boat up and left it inside, no smell at all. You can legally throw them in the trash or bury them. I actually prefer to use a bucket, it is clean and sanitary. If I had no other option than a holding tank in my boat I would give up sailing, for me its a deal breaker. Refer to post where we destroyed a brand new boat by cracking the holding tank when it was near full.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

barefootnavigator said:


> Well for one thing we don't use them, they are for emergency which has been written by many people here.


Say what?



barefootnavigator said:


> I've used the bucket and wag bags for years and I can tell you 5 minutes a day really isn't that big of an issue. Having 20 gallons of **** under your mattress is third world nasty. Nothing like going on a pristine yacht and smelling ****.


OK, let's not split hairs - you probably don't use them now, right?


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I use them when needed and have and will continue to. Here is something to think about. Zero discharge means zero discharge. By that standard 100% of all boats sailing with gas or diesel engines are breaking the law by discharging raw fuel into the water 100% of the time the engines are started and run. Poo? who gives a ****


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

barefootnavigator said:


> Well for one thing we don't use them, they are for emergency which has been written by many people here. . . . . I actually prefer to use a bucket, it is clean and sanitary. If I had no other option than a holding tank in my boat I would give up sailing, for me its a deal breaker.


Say what? So you use the bucket sans the bag and then what? Tip the contents over the side? Or leave it in the corner until you leave the anchorage? When I was a teenager we had a joke that went "How do you keep flies out of the kitchen? Answer: Put a bucket of ****e in the lounge". Maybe it's not a joke - maybe it really works.



barefootnavigator said:


> I've used the bucket and wag bags for years and I can tell you 5 minutes a day really isn't that big of an issue. Having 20 gallons of **** under your mattress is third world nasty. Nothing like going on a pristine yacht and smelling ****.


OK, let's not split hairs - you probably don't use them now, right? So what do you use now? From the second quote above it's not a holding tank.

I'm not taking the piss (no pun intended), I'm really intrigued.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I use shore-side facilities when I can, bags when I have to and the bucket everywhere in between no pun intended


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## bljones (Oct 13, 2008)

barefootnavigator said:


> I use them when needed and have and will continue to. Here is something to think about. Zero discharge means zero discharge. By that standard 100% of all boats sailing with gas or diesel engines are breaking the law by discharging raw fuel into the water 100% of the time the engines are started and run. Poo? who gives a ****


This is the kinda crap that broke sailors do that makes it harder for other broke sailors. You may not give a **** about your poo, but the guy on a boat a couple of moorings over who sees you dump your bait bucket of brown trout will likely give a ****.

You can try to rationalize your "i'm too broke to afford a proper non-smelling marine head, or too incompetent to make the one i had work" philosophy anyway you want to, but you might find your explanation is an uphill battle when you are asked to leave a mooring field and your boat is tagged because you do not have the requisite sanitary equipment. 
In fact, I can pretty much predict the answer you will hear from marina staff- "That discharge keeps us in business- your discharge is bad for business."

Oh, and don't drink, at least in North America- having a beer on your boat, even on a mooring, without a head, puts you at risk of a DUI.
That fine will put a real dent in your low-buck cruising budget.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Wagbags:
There's a simpler cheaper way. Buy a box of plastic bags, buy a big box of _clumping _kitty litter. Throw about a half cup of kitty litter into a bag, add another half cup after use, if needed. The stuff is incredibly absorbent. When you're done, tie a knot in the bag. Stow the full bags in another bag, they're cheap enough.

Wagbags are what, about two bucks each? Twenty bucks should get you at least fifty 5-6 gallon size garbage bags and the huge box of kitty litter. The wagbags are clever, they supposedly are higher tech, yadayada, they're damned expensive.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

hellosailor said:


> Wagbags are what, about two bucks each? Twenty bucks should get you at least fifty 5-6 gallon size garbage bags and the huge box of kitty litter. The wagbags are clever, they supposedly are higher tech, yadayada, they're damned expensive.


Three bucks a piece! Oh, the price of pooping.

Amazon.com: Cleanwaste WAG Portable Toilet Bags: Sports & [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@416Tx3Wn8PL


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

bljones said:


> This is the kinda crap that broke sailors do that makes it harder for other broke sailors. You may not give a **** about your poo, but the guy on a boat a couple of moorings over who sees you dump your bait bucket of brown trout will likely give a ****.
> 
> You can try to rationalize your "i'm too broke to afford a proper non-smelling marine head, or too incompetent to make the one i had work" philosophy anyway you want to, but you might find your explanation is an uphill battle when you are asked to leave a mooring field and your boat is tagged because you do not have the requisite sanitary equipment.
> In fact, I can pretty much predict the answer you will hear from marina staff- "That discharge keeps us in business- your discharge is bad for business."
> ...


What makes you think that I have a low buck cruising budget? And why have you completely ignored my post on all the fuel your boat spews into my pristine cruising waters? Oh I get, what your saying is do as I say not as I do


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I wish I wouldnt get logged out when posting a long thoughtful post...but as always patience grasshoper

I dont get the complaints about human poo when you see huge companies and factories spilling crap next you all over the world

I mean battery acid, sulfur, pestcides flushed away, etc...etc...how is a biodegradable poo worse than even fuel?

Ive seen fish eat poo! for petes sake...

why put laws to not pee when you might be swimming in green floruscent marvel type goo? and not even know about it?

anywhoo!


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## warren5421 (Jan 9, 2014)

Only story I have about holding tanks was when I was in the US canoe club. I was on watch and had to take a reading once an hour on the aft holding tank. This was done at the lower level watch station. This was done using air, after taking the reading you vented the air through a ¼” vent line which vented in the upper deck as high as the line could be run. Someone left the flush water running and filled the tank I took the reading opened the vent and it blew particulate all over the Engineering Officer who was not liked. Couldn’t happen to a better guy. The upper deck watch had to clean it up and he was grinning from ear to ear. I was informed by the Officer of the watch that the tank was full and not to sound it again till after it was blowed overboard!


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## CarbonSink62 (Sep 29, 2011)

I've done the porta-potti on my 18; it was ok. At least I could offer my guests something more than a bucket.

I love having a real head on my 25 and I have had no complaints of odor at all.

I leave $10 in an orange key fob hanging from the lifeline and call NH Dept of Evironmental Svcs; they come by in a boat and suck the tank dry. I don't even have to be there. It's a sweet deal.



warren5421 said:


> Only story I have about holding tanks was when I was in the US canoe club. I was on ...


Funny story about my time in Uncle Sam's Canoe Club:

On a submarine the sanitary tanks are emptied by coming up close to the surface; pressurizing the tank; and opening the overboard valve. There are many amusing stories about people inside the boat not being aware that this was happening and trying to use the head. This isn't one of those stories.

In port, the tanks are emptied the same way, but into a sewer pipe on the pier. The boat behind us had left earlier that day, but the crew failed to replace the blank-off when they disconnected their pump out line (cue sinister music). At some point, we needed to empty our tank and you can guess what happened. The Topside Watch screams into the 1MC "Secure blowing sanitary tanks! Secure blowing sanitary tanks!" That got everyone out of the boat to see what was going on. The sewer line ports are open towards the dock, not the water, I guess so it is easier to connect the hoses, so the 'effluent' was sprayed all over the parked cars on the pier. I maybe should have mentioned earlier that only high ranking officers get to park their cars close to the boat; couldn't have happened to nicer people.

Ken


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

barefootnavigator said:


> What makes you think that I have a low buck cruising budget? And why have you completely ignored my post on all the fuel your boat spews into my pristine cruising waters? Oh I get, what your saying is do as I say not as I do


The difference is that you don't have a choice on the engine, for Pity's sake! You DO have a choice on your holding. I find it absolutely repulsive that anyone cruising and enjoying the waters would dump their crap into the same water that we get our drinking water from, swim in, dive in, etc.

Down in Florida, they will board your boat (I know because it happens regularly down here) and fine you just for not having your Thull locked closed. If they caught you dumping illegally, Jaysus, they would be all over you and you sure would not get any sympathy from your fellow cruisers who have gone to great pains and costs to dispose of their crap properly.

Illegal dumping is the stuff that gives all of us cruisers a bad name. Please don't.

Brian


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

bljones said:


> This is the kinda crap that broke sailors do that makes it harder for other broke sailors. You may not give a **** about your poo, but the guy on a boat a couple of moorings over who sees you dump your bait bucket of brown trout will likely give a ****.
> 
> You can try to rationalize your "i'm too broke to afford a proper non-smelling marine head, or too incompetent to make the one i had work" philosophy anyway you want to, but you might find your explanation is an uphill battle when you are asked to leave a mooring field and your boat is tagged because you do not have the requisite sanitary equipment.
> In fact, I can pretty much predict the answer you will hear from marina staff- "That discharge keeps us in business- your discharge is bad for business."
> ...


Precisely.

Brian


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## socal c25 (Nov 1, 2013)

My dilemma is do I put a large holding tank in the boat for longer time sailing and sacrifice storage needed for longer time sailing or do I install a smaller tank and have storage, but then have to go and pump out frequently. I have a port a potty now but I have not had the boat out for extended periods of time yet, I am planning a waste system now for this summer.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

socal c25 said:


> My dilemma is do I put a large holding tank in the boat for longer time sailing and sacrifice storage needed for longer time sailing or do I install a smaller tank and have storage, but then have to go and pump out frequently. I have a port a potty now but I have not had the boat out for extended periods of time yet, I am planning a waste system now for this summer.


If you are not in a NDZ, you can get a Lectrascan.

Brian


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## socal c25 (Nov 1, 2013)

Cruisingdad said:


> If you are not in a NDZ, you can get a Lectrascan.
> 
> Brian


We do go to Catalina Island which is a NDZ, once 3 miles offshore we can dump.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"having a beer on your boat, even on a mooring, without a head, puts you at risk of a DUI."

Is that a trick question? Where only the first part counts, i.e. "having a beer on your boat, ...puts you at risk of a DUI."

Or what does having a head have to do with this?

AFAIK I've seen statutes that specifically say a vessel _secured _to a mooring or dock is not under way, so the motor vehicle (etc) DUI laws do not apply. Despite the contradictory DUI laws that say that simply having the keys while you are drunk in a car, _parked or otherwise_, earns you a DUI on land.

Either way I don't see how a _head _on the vessel affects things. Especially since you're still allowed to pee over the side, or fall in and drown while attempting to do so, as so many sailors actually do every year.


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## socal c25 (Nov 1, 2013)

hellosailor said:


> Either way I don't see how a _head _on the vessel affects things. Especially since you're still allowed to pee over the side, or fall in and drown while attempting to do so, as so many sailors actually do every year.


If your on the hook or in a marina and are peeing over the side you'll risk more than falling over the side, if caught you'll end up with a ticket for indecent exposure and then you'll be put on the internet as a sex offender all for relieving yourself.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

" if caught "
The charge of indecent exposure has to do with being OBSERVED peeing over the side. The actual peeing is usually legal, the ticket is for PUBLIC EXPOSURE which means someone _saw _you and complained about it.
Those are two very different things. Pretty much like the difference between having sex with your spouse, in your bedroom, versus re-enacting the Kama Sutra with them on a school playing field while the kids are playing on it.
When and where you do it is the problem. The act itself, is not.

( And I'd bet that if you _were _re-enacting the Kama Sutra, you could _still _get away with claiming public performance of art, a protected free speech right, in the US. )


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

What I fail to understand is having fresh water flush. 

As for discharge .... in a marina ? You are without redeeming feature. In a crowded mooring field ? Dodgey at best. Out there ? Why not.


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## caberg (Jul 26, 2012)

socal c25 said:


> If your on the hook or in a marina and are peeing over the side you'll risk more than falling over the side, if caught you'll end up with a ticket for indecent exposure and then you'll be put on the internet as a sex offender all for relieving yourself.


Is this a joke? If not, please tell me where this is so I can never go there.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"What I fail to understand is having fresh water flush. "

Seawater = soup. All sorts of live things are in it, along with plenty of nutrients for them. So the seawater in your head, in the hoses, etc. is alive, and if it sits and gets stagnant, it will get stagnant and develop odors, slime, etc.

The theory behind a fresh water flush is that it clears all that soup out of the bowl and hoses, so there's much less growing and much less that can make an odor there.

Add good ventilation to keep down odors in the holding tank itself...and in theory you can have an odorless system.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Also easier on the plumbing. This boat is the first I've had with every thing plumbed for fresh or salt. Fresh truly makes a difference. I was quite surprised how much so.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

tdw said:


> What I fail to understand is having fresh water flush.


Me too. The smell generated by stale sea water is instantly perishable. I pump the loo through when we arrive on the boat, the smell is gone in moments and does not return at any time while we're still on the boat. It only returns if the boat is left unattended for three or four days.

When the loo doesn't flush because you have run out of fresh water, being able to switch it to sea water seems to me like a very hollow victory.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Yes, speaking of easier on the plumbing, urine + salt water tends to crystalize out salts, which then constrict the hoses and make it easier for things to catch and jam. Fresh water flushing cuts down on the crystal growths, too.

For anyone without a watermaker, it might be a burden to carry the extra fresh water though. For anyone who likes to Rube Goldberg, it might be a good use for storing gray water and then using that as a compromise flush?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> .....For anyone who likes to Rube Goldberg, it might be a good use for storing gray water and then using that as a compromise flush?


Stagnant gray water can really smell bad. Ask anyone that has a boat that routes any of it to the bilge.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

hellosailor said:


> Yes, speaking of easier on the plumbing, urine + salt water tends to crystalize out salts, which then constrict the hoses and make it easier for things to catch and jam. Fresh water flushing cuts down on the crystal growths, too.


Yes that is a problem. We usually fix that by, once every now and then determined by how much time we spend on the boat, pump some white vinegar into the pipes and let it sit overnight. That seems to reduce the calcium build up (I think that's what you're talking about), to a minimum.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

When coastal just 2 of us using fresh is never an issue. When no access to fresh for awhile plan ahead and use salt. Think given to date that's not a long time and in that setting no issue using a lot of flush with nothing going to holding tanks build up should be minimal. Also flip back to fresh as soon as we can. Nice feature having the choice. Not hard to do and would suggest it even as a retrofit when your existing system needs a major rebuild. Mistake we made is having all fresh go through a whole boat filtration system. No need to having water going to the heads filtered.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

tdw said:


> What I fail to understand is having fresh water flush.





Omatako said:


> Me too. The smell generated by stale sea water is instantly perishable. I pump the loo through when we arrive on the boat, the smell is gone in moments and does not return at any time while we're still on the boat. It only returns if the boat is left unattended for three or four days.


Why put up with the smell at all? Why deal with crystal formation in the sewage lines?

We're set up for fresh or salt flush. Coastal cruising we flush with fresh water. Part of getting ready to head offshore on passage is flipping the valve over for salt flush. On passage the head obviously gets used regularly and smell isn't so much of a factor, although we've had the odd tiny octopus and lots of small shrimp slide out of the rim.

As soon as we make landfall we go back to fresh water flush and give everything a proper scrub.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

One of the things you need to consider, when using fresh water to flush, is reverse contamination of your water supply. I had an installer really give me a hard time about it once. I never bothered, but not for that reason.

Bottom line is, if you use your head often, have a well ventilated tank that you empty every few days, flush plenty of clear chase water (salt or fresh) and never flush anything you didn't eat first, your system will be fine, regardless of the water you use.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

man Ive seen it all now...

cruisers using freshwater in their heads.

I thought rinsing plates with freshwater was bad this just makes me cry.

man!

I know Im a minority for sure, and my ideas on cruising cheaply and very frugally in the past(im improving and adding gizmos and ease of living gadgets on my current boat) but I just couldnt do it

I have a hard enough time here liviing with cisterns in my house and seing people rumage my trash and begging for water in the streets that I simply couldnt do such a thing

especially on a boat

and honestly guys if its smells you are talking about I have no idea how one could compare poo water smell in a head to any sort of bilge from a diesel

oil is a natutral product and hence goes bad if you will

I just plucked some dirty ass oil bilge water in my aft bilge compartment on my islander 36...

this compartment had never been cleaned as the water level isnt high enough to go up onto the next where there is a bilge pump so there is always stagnant water.

this crap smelled a million times worse than any grey seawater or pee water or poo water that stays in the little pocket of your head any day!

so guys lets keep it real

if you want to have a clean head use some joy and leave it sud in the bottom...ther are also other stuff you can use like regular toilet cleaners...even biodegardables or green type cleaners...

just me half a cent

peace


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Anti siphon on all fluid lines even if not exiting the boat is a good idea.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

If your head has a sink then it is trivial to do a fresh water flush. Just leave the toilet always turned to "dry" and fill a container from the sink then pour that into the head. We keep an old pot behind the toilet for this purpose. I always do my last flush of the day with fresh water, and when sailing near a constant water supply we also use fresh water.

My old Catalina 25 had an even nicer option. The drain from the head sink went to the same through hull as the water inlet of the toilet. We would close the through hull and then you could fill the sink with fresh water and when you pumped the toilet it would draw that "grey water" into the toilet for flushing.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> ......if you want to have a clean head use some joy and leave it sud in the bottom.......


Except, this will kill the aerobic bacteria colonies in the tank, when you flush, that are necessary to break down waste in the tank and do not smell. If they are dead, the anaerobic bacteria will multiply and they are ones that stink.

Some "nuke" their tanks with stuff designed to kill everything. However, they always degrade and, when they do, the stinky bacteria have a field day. Not to mention, they are awful to be pumping into the environment, whether overboard or ashore.

There are products that will not kill the good bacteria, such as Raritan CP. One bottle will last a couple of seasons. It isn't really the bowl itself that smells.


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## tomharry (Jan 25, 2014)

having just purchased a boat with a holding tank,i can now confirm it is permantly disconnected,after seeing paper and liquid run down the deck,after 3 uses and blocked lines it now goes direct to sea.there is enough other toxins going in the water now so whats a bit more biodegradable matter going to do?


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## TerryBradley (Feb 28, 2006)

Let me jump in here with my 2 cents worth. As far as using a bucket; I don't have a problem with that. I do it all the time on my little Windrose. But I avoid carrying it down the dock and past my friends by simply taking the Double Dooty or Wag Bag and putting them into a garbage bag. Have a Porta Pot on the Catalina but have only used it in extreme emergencies. The Hunter has a head and I can't keep the Grandkids and women from using that.


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

TerryBradley said:


> ... The Hunter has a head and I can't keep the Grandkids and women from using that.


They do seem to have a "moth to a flame" sort of attraction, don't they?


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## Roadking Larry (Apr 30, 2013)

CarbonSink62 said:


> I've done the porta-potti on my 18; it was ok. At least I could offer my guests something more than a bucket.
> 
> I love having a real head on my 25 and I have had no complaints of odor at all.
> 
> ...


The bubble head branch of uncle Sam's canoe club always has funny stories about blowing san tanks( not what we called it). My 1st boat we had a RM1 that managed to blow sans back into the galley twice on 2 consecutive duty days. Nothing quite like seeing the ice machine full of poo and little bits of toilet paper.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

tomharry said:


> having just purchased a boat with a holding tank,i can now confirm it is permantly disconnected,after seeing paper and liquid run down the deck,after 3 uses and blocked lines it now goes direct to sea.there is enough other toxins going in the water now so whats a bit more biodegradable matter going to do?


I sympathize with your point, but you just can't have an open outlet in a closed harbor or anchorage. I do agree that the 3nm offshore rule is ridiculous. It has nothing to do with science, its' just the limit of the State's delegated right to regulate their waters.

That said, if you are caught without a closed and secured MSD (let alone disconnected) in a no-discharge area, I understand the fine can be a couple of grand. It is clearly on the checklist for an inspection boarding.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

Head threads always make me happy that I don't visit some people's boats!


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## TerryBradley (Feb 28, 2006)

I guess this thread just proves how popular "potty talk" is!


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## Puddin'_Tain (Feb 14, 2014)

Minnewaska said:


> I sympathize with your point, but you just can't have an open outlet in a closed harbor or anchorage. I do agree that the 3nm offshore rule is ridiculous. It has nothing to do with science, its' just the limit of the State's delegated right to regulate their waters. ...


Well, it's a bit more than that. The three-mile limit is marked on every chart, so there shouldn't be any ambiguity about whether a boat is legally too close to shore. Also, there has to be some definition of "too close". Obviously, pumping out, or directly flushing, in a marina isn't a good thing; and doing so just outside of a swim area, or just off a public beach, wouldn't make one too popular either. So, what's the alternative, someone sitting down with charts for every inch of coastline and making judgment calls as to where to allow discharges? Think about how complicated that would be. The three-mile rule may seem a bit arbitrary, and maybe even heavy-handed, but it's pretty clear and obvious. No one can claim they didn't realize they were legally too close to shore, and no enforcement folks can fine you just based on their own judgement about how close too close actually is.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I built in a composting head last year and would never go back to a stinky soup of chemicals and waste. I designed a spackle pail with a s.s. rod to rotate the contents which sits below a standard seat. It works great and I plan to now glass in a permanent, larger holding area and get a preformed pee diverter. I vented using a small PC fan which operates on a very small "battery maintainer" solar unit. It can also operate on the 12v boat system. Attached are a couple of pix. This little pail lasts me a month before it needs to be emptied. There is essentially no odor except a slight "peat moss" smell. I use Coconut Coir for a medium.


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## cthoops (Apr 30, 2012)

smurphny, How big is your spackle pail? We don't have enough room for a Nature's Head/Airhead/C-Head and have thought about making our own, but all of the designs I've found call for a 5 gallon bucket. Is that what you used?


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

cthoops said:


> smurphny, How big is your spackle pail? We don't have enough room for a Nature's Head/Airhead/C-Head and have thought about making our own, but all of the designs I've found call for a 5 gallon bucket. Is that what you used?


That's exactly why I did the build-in. Couldn't find a ready-made unit that would come anywhere near fitting in the small space. It's the standard 5 gallon spackle bucket with a bent 1/2" round pc. of stainless for a stirrer. I built the platform just above bucket height and used a standard seat. There is a half- round piece which slides/rotates in to cover the hole when not in use. Now that I'm sold on the idea, the plan is to replace the bucket with a larger, permanent glassed-in space which will at least double the refill time and actually allow more time for composting. It IS amazing how fast the compost process works.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Cruisingdad said:


> A fix for that is simple: put in a inline strainer with a CL tab. Brian


Would you expand on that please?
Links to parts?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

smurph, that's a nice installation & execution. I'm still not sold on those things, but that's a nice one.


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## cthoops (Apr 30, 2012)

Thanks, smurphny! This has now risen to project #1 for this season. We have a Thetford which is fine, but we'd prefer to have something that doesn't have to be emptied as frequently. 

I appreciate the information.


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## tomharry (Jan 25, 2014)

over here in new zealand we are not suppose to discharge within 500m of shore,having said that there are no facilities to pump out so over she goes.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

tomharry said:


> over here in new zealand we are not suppose to discharge within 500m of shore,having said that there are no facilities to pump out so over she goes.


While I would not intuitively let a cruise ship put a few hundred thousand gallons overboard at that distance, it seems perfectly rational for pumping a few dozens gallons. Even if there are a few dozen recreational boats out there. I think many can't fathom how much water volume is between them and the shoreline. If I did the math correctly, assuming an average depth of 7 meters, each 1 meter slice of shoreline contains nearly 1 million gallons of water out to 500 meters. That's just one 500m x 7m x 1m slice. Our 3nm rule is just silly.

I would not object to a rule that required all discharge to pass through a macerator first, if science showed it would speed degradation.


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## jnorten (Aug 18, 2009)

Here's what my bareboat sailing instructor taught me more than 10 years ago. It's the method I share to this very day whenever on a boat. It's received well because it works well.

Pee: Dry bowl (NO lake water intake). After going, fill a cup with fresh water from the sink. Pour water, using quick swirl motion, into bowl. Pump bowl dry. That's it. This eliminates much of the volume going into the tank--pumping lake water into the bowl. Folks don't realize how much water this pushes into the tank.

Poop: Follow same method as above. HOWEVER, add one extra step; before going, be sure to pour a cup of water into the bowl. If necessary, swirl a second cup through the bowl after going.

Using this manner, 3-4 adult males can make a ~25 gallon tank last the better part of a week. When tied up in the evenings, use shore facilities. While at sea, guys can pee off the back of the boat. 

We once had a girl at the helm. A guy peed of the back and she had no clue. 

My personal favorite is to sit at lifelines--feet dangling over the side "rail meat" style. If not heeling too much, then do this on the low side (unorthodox but works better than high side). Pee out the bottom of your shorts. NOBODY, and I mean nobody will know, except for the "tinkling" sound in calmer conditions. You can be staring straight into the eyes of someone in the cockpit. They cannot see your lower half because you're forward enough that the cabin top blocks their view!

Don't ask me how I know; "I heard this from a friend".


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

jnorten said:


> Pee: Dry bowl (NO lake water intake). After going, fill a cup with fresh water from the sink. Pour water, using quick swirl motion, into bowl. Pump bowl dry. That's it. This eliminates much of the volume going into the tank--pumping lake water into the bowl. Folks don't realize how much water this pushes into the tank.
> 
> Poop: Follow same method as above. HOWEVER, add one extra step; before going, be sure to pour a cup of water into the bowl. If necessary, swirl a second cup through the bowl after going.
> 
> Using this manner, 3-4 adult males can make a ~25 gallon tank last the better part of a week. When tied up in the evenings, use shore facilities. While at sea, guys can pee off the back of the boat.


While this method will conserve capacity, it also leaves waste in the hoses, which is the number one cause of odor. If your waste lines rise from the head to a vented loop and then return down to the holding tank, it takes a good gallon of clean chase water to flush them out.



> We once had a girl at the helm. A guy peed of the back and she had no clue.


I have no problem with peeing over the side in open water, but it is technically a violation of discharge laws and there have been people cited, if witnessed doing so.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"I have no problem with peeing over the side in open water, but it is technically a violation of discharge laws and there have been people cited, if witnessed doing so. "
Runs contrary to everything I've ever read. You are not allowed to discharge waste from any equipment on the boat, or any part of the boat, but AFAIK an animal, human or otherwise, is still allowed to pollute the waters _directly_. 
Pee in a cup and dump it, that's a violation. Pee without the cup, no violation of sanitary or pollution or dumping laws. Local laws about public urination or indecent exposure, are a whole other issue. (Political comment deleted by tdw) . (VBG)


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> "I have no problem with peeing over the side in open water, but it is technically a violation of discharge laws and there have been people cited, if witnessed doing so. "
> Runs contrary to everything I've ever read. You are not allowed to discharge waste from any equipment on the boat, or any part of the boat, but AFAIK an animal, human or otherwise, is still allowed to pollute the waters _directly_.
> Pee in a cup and dump it, that's a violation. Pee without the cup, no violation of sanitary or pollution or dumping laws. Local laws about public urination or indecent exposure, are a whole other issue. Hillary Clinton might have to wear a burqah to avoid that. (VBG)


I have often heard this but have a hard time believing it. They could get you for urinating in public (a misdemeanor in many locals) or indecent exposure.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"I have often heard this but have a hard time believing it."
Heard what, (Off Topic comment deleted)

What's so hard to believe? Most regulations are poorly written and focused on one point. Regulations concerning the discharges from a vessel, are written to regulate the discharges from the _vessel _and the equipment on the vessel. The souls on board are part of neither, under the laws.

In fact, from the objective viewpoint of a topologist, a sailboat is very much like a donut. It is simply a torus (as the donut) but with multiple holes in it. Two-hole torus, three-hole torus...Still a torus. Now, apply that logically to the regulations, and you can have and use all kinds of aperatures "on" the boat, because if they penetrate the hull, they are not _on the boat. _ They are simply more holes in the torus, and you are still on the outside of the torus, outside of the vessel, even if are belowdeck and pee through a urinal fitting. That's not "on" the boat, that's still on the outside of the torus.

As to the regulations...check the CFR. Its in their somewhere. No mention of toruses (tori?) though.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

I posted earlier about the urinating issue if it goes into a comode it must be retained inland any other device as well as peeing over he side comes under the direct discharge exception as I referenced in post 27 of this thread


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