# What's the big deal...



## yachtsea (Aug 14, 2006)

What's the big deal about off coast cruising?

About a year ago my brother returned from iraq, and decided it was time to start laying the groundwork for his long dreamed sail around the world. I got sucked into it too. Problem was, niether of us had ever sailed before. We both took some classes at the navy marina, and he bought a boat to live on. After lots of day trips, a few overnight excursions, making lots of mistakes and even getting cought in some bad weather a couple times, I dare say we've become halfway decent sailers. Scratch that, I feel confident in claiming we're both down right competant. 

But we've never been off shore for more than a few consecutive days. And I'm left wondering what's the big deal about the bigger passes? Carry some more food, dont get cought in a huricane, bring the ipod charger - what else? Whats really that much harder about sailing across the oceon than down the coast?


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## infonote (Jun 27, 2006)

I never did offshore sailing for long days, but it is all about being with nature. Also offshore navigation is much more difficult. You have to use navigation aids like compass, sextant and GPS etc.

It is all about being one with nature, like our ancestors where.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Bluewater passages aren't necessarily any more difficult than coastal ones, but they do require a different mindset and skill set. Also, open ocean passages are very different from coastal cruising, and each has different problems. 

On a bluewater passage, you have a bit less to worry about in terms of collision risks, as there is generally far less traffic on the open ocean. You also don't have to worry about groundings, sandbars, rocks, lee shores, or other land-based issues as much. 

Weather becomes much more of an issue, as you don't have any where to hide. In some ways, unless you're caught by a really fierce storm, being on the open ocean is far safer than getting caught in the same storm along the coast. The really strong storms, like hurricanes, North Atlantic gales, and such are truly a test for the bluewater sailor though. Even getting caught on the fringes of one of these can test your skills and your boat.

Navigation becomes more of an issue, especially if you're using GPS for it, as you really need to have and use manual backups, in case of failure, as there is no real way to determine your position on the open ocean, other than with a sextant, if your electronics fail. 

Dead reckoning and a good understanding of the currents, leeway and such all becomes much more important. If you're 3000 miles from an island, like Hawaii, being a little off on the navigation can mean you'll miss it completely—currents, leeway, compass errors, etc, can all make it all to easy to miss an 100 mile-wide target at the end of 3000 miles. 

Granted, if your GPS doesn't fail, and you don't have electrical problems, then this is not much of an issue, but going bluewater, you need to be ready for those types of failures and problems.

Floating hazards are a bit more of an issue, as floating hazards near populated areas are usually quickly dealt with—on the open ocean, there is no one to deal with them. Also, there are fewer people to spot them or warn you about them. In coastal waters, before a floating hazard is removed, you'll usually hear a "Securité" call about it, warning marine traffic to its prescence.

Understanding ocean swells and wind fetch generally becomes much more important, as the distances the waves build over is far greater—you can be seriously affected by a storm that is hundreds of miles away.

Some people don't deal well with being out of sight of land. The motion of the boat is a bit different than it is near the coast. You have to be more self-reliant as help is not a short distance away, but possible hours or days away. If you don't have an satellite phone, SSB-radio or an EPIRB, often you are going to have to be very self-reliant, as you won't even have any way of calling for help.

That said, the winds on the open ocean are generally far more constant than they are near the coast, where the land and buildings can affect the direction of the wind. A good solid self-steering system is often considered a necessity for long off-shore passages generally.

Wind vanes are nice because their ability to steer in bad conditions is generally far better than autopilots—as the wind strength increases, so does the power of a wind vane steering. They also don't use any electricity. That said, the wind can shift and if your not paying attention, the wind vane can carry you a long distance in the wrong direction.

Autopilots are a good complement to windvanes. They work better in light conditions and also work when motoring, which most wind vanes do not. Most can steer to a GPS track or compass course. However, they do use electricity and are prone to failure in the harsh saltwater environment of a bluewater passage.

I hope that helps a bit.


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## Newport41 (Jun 30, 2006)

Being self reliant. The USCG isn't gonna help you if you get in the ****s in the middle of the ocean. You can't go down to the machine shop to get parts for the engine in Somalia. If you can't fix everything on board then you're not really ready. You have to be a plumber, electrician, sail maker, mechanic, doctor, shipwright, diplomat, accountant, search and rescue, firefighter, fisherman....the list never ends. Cruisers tend to help each other out, so you're not always alone but you have to do a lot of things yourself. I think a lot of peole make it into a bigger deal than it is but offshore sailing is different in the lifestyle and personality it requires more then the basic sailing ability. Good luck with the plans.


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## yachtsea (Aug 14, 2006)

Wouldn't it be eaiser to be self reliant on a smaller boat? Execpt for less space to carry provisions, why is it considered a little out there to do long distance bluewater stuff on a sub 30' boat?


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## chrondi (Mar 24, 2004)

Dear Yachtsea,
are you really suggesting for yoursel offshore sailing without an extensive experience on a boat under 30 foot long? Well, try to become a sailor first and then start this kind of dreaming. Otherwise, in my view the whole discussion is ... nuts!


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

chrondi said:


> Dear Yachtsea,
> are you really suggesting for yoursel offshore sailing without an extensive experience on a boat under 30 foot long? Well, try to become a sailor first and then start this kind of dreaming. Otherwise, in my view the whole discussion is ... nuts!


On the other hand, If you knew everything there was to know in advance you'd never do it...

The worst thing that can happen? You Die. On the otherhand, if you avoid doing so, YOU REALLY GET TO LIVE LIFE TO THE FULL OUT THERE !

Just avoid getting injured or killed and the rest is easy


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Buy two things. A good VHF and a decent GPS.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

SD did a great job on write up so I will try and not repeat anything he said.

Well, I hope it really is no big deal. I would hope that after reading what you have read, and asking the question you just asked, you will not take an offshore passage lightly.

I have seen 15-20 foot breakers five feet from my head with dolphin swimming in them. I was eye to eye with dolphin standing in my cockpit!! 

I have been up on the deck in a pitch black darkness scrambling to hold onto the mast and boom to reef the sail. 

I have motored for 27hours in a sea so flat it was a mirror... and never saw another boat.

So you are asking: So, what's the point? The unknown. The best and the worst is out there. Preparation and learning all you can learn. Be prepared for any and every possible dissaster. There is no coast guard out there to help. No cell phones. No VHF. Unles you have a HAM or Irridium, forget any conversation with anyone.

You go down on your boat out there, the odds of surviving are very, very small to none at all.

That is the big deal. It is real and nature at its best and its worst. Learn everything you can learn and prepare for everything you can prepare for... and I hope you never have to use them.

All that being said, it is awesome and worth the risk. Of course, I am happy sitting on my boat and watching the sunrise in a crowded marina.

Fair winds...


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Cruisingdad said:


> I have seen 15-20 foot breakers five feet from my head with dolphin swimming in them. I was eye to eye with dolphin standing in my cockpit!!


Thanks CD. Man, I wish you had a photo of this...that would be amazing...


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## Songlines82 (Aug 7, 2006)

*What's the Big Deal...*

Hey, I don't have near the type of experience that most people who provide answers on here do, but I do have a suggested source of information:
A source that could give you a general ideas of the positives and negatives of a serious bluewater passage would be Maiden Voyage by Tania Aebi. If you want to see what can go wrong then maybe try a book such as Adrift by Steven Callahan.
Although there are two extremes presented in these authors' stories I still would say that both authors are extremely fortunate to have such positive stories after overcoming their problems (Aebi's lack of experience and Callahan's incredible odds against living through his ordeal).

p.s. forgot to mention that Aebi does her journey on an, apparently solid, sub 30-footer (I believe around 26 ft.)


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I would differ very much from Charlie Cobra's advice in THIS particular case. Two most important items would be a life raft and EPIRB. <grin>
You guys have said it all. My own view is that anyone with a boat of ANY size who asks this question seriously is not qualified to do it. 
Seriously Yachtsea...no reason a solid sub-30 footer can't do it. You need some heavy weather sea miles near shore before you try it. Wait for a day when it's blowing 30 knots or so and try to go 10-15 miles offshore....then sail back and forth for 24 hours or so. ...tacking, standing watch, cooking, sleeping, puking! If you survive it...do another 24 hours etc. and maybe another 24...then you'll have a 3 day gale under your belt and you'll have learned a lot about your boat and yourself. The next time you do it...you both will be better prepared. Before you head offshore...be sure you have those 2 key items I mentioned.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'll agree on the EPIRB, but would recommend a GPIRB, rather than just an EPIRB, as the integrated GPS is a better idea. 

The liferaft really depends on the boat...on a well-built multihull, it isn't as necessary as it is on a monohull. However, even on the "unsinkable" boats, like multihulls and monohulls like the Etap brand, fire is one hazard where having a liferaft might save your life... if you can avoid fire...then a liferaft isn't necessarily a necessity.


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## Newport41 (Jun 30, 2006)

Don't let people tell you that your plan is nuts. Yes there's a lot to learn but if you have the ability to take in information and to reason your way through problems, and you are well prepared, then going offshore is as safe as any other form of travel. As for doing it in a less than 30 footer. Small boats are going to get pushed around a lot more by the sea so they are going to be less comfortable. They are also have a slower hull speed so you're going to be exposed to the sea for a longer period of time thus increasing your chance of running into bad weather. The relative size or a wave is an obvious factor too. Having said that, people have sailed across the oceans in 12ft boats. My preferance would be 36-50' personally.


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## dorourke (Aug 11, 2006)

I have read this thread awstruk. I never even thought about the risks involved with blue water crusing. I can only reflect on what I've read in Sail Magazine and the glories of it, and here it is in real life, reading about the experiences of real people. One thing not mentioned about deep water crusing is about pirates. I've heard there real and a sure concern out there. Is this true?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, pirates are a concern, but only if you're sailing in certain geographic locations. Most times, piracy is a coastal phenomenon, not a bluewater one. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to spot a small sailboat in the middle of the ocean. 

Also, many times, pirates will not bother with a small (less than 35') sailing vessel, as it is often not worth their time and effort to do so. They will go after a larger yatch, 40'+, generally, as the larger the boat, the more likely that the people on board have more money and expensive electronics, making it much more worthwhile to do so. 

That said, recently, the naval forces of several countries, including the United States have been cracking down on pirates, and if they hear about an attack in progress, usually via SSB-radio, they often will intervene and escort the vessel out of danger. This has happened several times off the coast of Somalia and the Gulf of Aden so far, which was one of the more serious problem areas.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

SD,

I was smart enought to try and take the photos. Got some of them as they were swiming off the port side but it looks like crud. Sea was spraying all over the lens. I put it in my book anyway. My wife was also kind enough to to shoot a picture of me the next morning after that night. No, I will not share that one. Let's just say that I learned that EVERYONE GETS SEA SICK... we all just have different thresholds!!


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

It is not just piracy....there is robbery, assault, dinghy theft etc. etc. that are more real every day dangers than piracy at sea. Here's a post from just yesterday about the present situation in Trinidad...just one island!

Subject: S/V DHARMA BUM III in Chaguaramas, Trinidad, W.I. -- Mo., 24. July 2006

I have left my home country of Germany in 1982 and have been sailing (with lots of interruptions) since 1987. I have also visited around 50 countries in my various travels.

~~~~~

After a whole spate of thefts, burglaries and armed robberies in Chaguaramas, yachties convened a security meeting this morning at 10:00 o'clock in "The Bight" at Peake Yacht Services. Andy of TIXI LIXI organized and chaired the meeting and about 100 yachties and cruisers showed up (at a similar meeting in March about 10 people came). Especially invited were the Yacht Services Association of Trinidad and Tobago (YSATT), the police in Carenage, and a representative from the ministry of tourism. Unfortunately I did not see any of the representatives and the local paper covering the boating scene understandably didn't want to print things that might keep people away from the place.

Quite a few of the people present had lost dinghies, outboards, generators or other things from their boats and not a few of them were victims of armed robberies where the attackers held guns to their heads. One French sailor had his boat broken into at the reputable marina Crews Inn. The boat got completely ransacked and the thieves had taken absolutely everything of any value. Even the diesel generator and the engine were gone.

One person stopped his car at a red light, when a robber smashed the window and held a gun to his head. Another was robbed in his house and received multiple serious stabs in the front and the back. One woman about 70 years of age was robbed three times while taking a maxi-taxi (minibus) from Chaguaramas to Port of Spain. She now has obtained a permit to carry a gun. These were all local people, not visitors, tourists, yachties or cruisers. In the capital of Port of Spain, which is relatively small as capitals go, on average 1.7 people get murdered every day. This is not only a yachtie problem - but yachties are prime targets for thieves and robbers.

Naturally some of these people were extremely upset, with tempers rising and flaring. Some cruisers called for the formation of an armed militia, which suggestion didn't receive much enthusiasm. Other people were quick to demand all kinds of things from the local business community and the local government. Finally, most yachties present signed a petition to send off to the authorities, while a subgroup discussed forming a dinghy-watch run by yachties in a revolving manner on a voluntary basis. One circumnavigator, whose wife was on the most recently robbed maxi-taxi (minibus) suggested a concerted boycott of all the local businesses to draw their attention to the security problem. He received a round of solid applause.

Amongst the other numerous suggestions was the idea to suggest a harbor watch to the local marinas and YSATT, as they already have most of the necessary infrastructure in place. And pretty much everybody agreed that the SSCA, Trans-Ocean and similar organizations and publications should be made aware of the atrocious and worsening security situation here in Chaguaramas and Trinidad.

As it stands right now, there are quite a few boats leaving for Venezuela and elsewhere, many of them never to return. They will do their best to spread the word amongst their friends, acquaintances and fellow cruisers.

As one of our engines is currently down and as we still haven't received any compensation whatsoever after being hit by a local boat (we were stationary, at anchor, with no one on our boat) on 30 May (we informed the coast guard, the police, the harbor authorities, YSATT and the Trinidad and Tobago Sailing Association (TTSA) right away), we can't leave right now. Otherwise we certainly would. Our dinghy is chained to a lamppost, the outboard engine is chained to the cockpit-table and these days I never carry more then $15 to $30 on my body. I don't walk the streets of Port of Spain in the dark, but try to be on the boat by then. Still, most of the people who got robbed were just as careful as me.

Eventually, we'll move on to Venezuela (hopefully not from the frying pan into the fire) and then move back home into the Pacific. We have many friends in the Marquesas, the Tuamotus, in Papeete and Tonga and we are quite sure that at least over there the peaceful yachtie-life will have us back. But hopefully it'll be a lot earlier on.



you might find this link useful for keeping up with the local security issues in the Carib..

Melodye Pompa 
S/Y Second Millennium 
for the Caribbean Safety and Security Net 
SSB 8104.0 at 1215 UTC 
www.caribcruisers.com

Also: www.onsa.org.ve for Venezuela security issues...Click on their map link at http://www.onsa.org.ve/enindex.shtml to see their latest assessment of risk areas.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

First two days out in sea are always the worst for me. I don't get physically ill but I definitely do not feel good until I adjust. CDad has the most experience out in blue water that I have seen. I would add this based on my experience. There are a lot more boats off the East Coast than you might think. Particularly off New York. They are big and they are fast. I would not go more than 100 miles offshore without Radar, GPS, EPIRB and a life raft. Also, put together a ditch bag that includes your EPIRB, and a hand held VHF radios with extra batteries. 
Now for the experience, go offshore and enjoy it. EB White wrote a fantastic poem about why men love sailing in the ocean. In essence its because of the horizon. How far you are willing to go depends on how brave you are. There is nothing quite like waking up in the middle of the night and walking onto the deck and watching ice bergs float by in the moonlight. Part of your mind thinks "crap...Titanic" and the other part wonders at the beauty. If you have the courage to sail offshore, read every book you can find on the subject and get out there and do it. Its the only place worth sailing...


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Surf,

I am not the super-expereinced Bluewater sailor that it might appear. THere are soooo many more people with soo much more experience. I am only sharing my bit of experience. As a matter of fact, one of our best friends has singled to Bermuda, been across the Atlantic three times, and spent a good bit of time in the Med/Spain. Compared to him/them and many others, my experience is a joke!!

THat being said, a few thoughts from above: We had a friend that lived in the Carrib for about 7 years. After who knows how many dinks and motors growing legs, he did come up with a very unique solution (albeit unorthodox): He painted his dink pink and purple and flourescent yellow striped... with a not so matching motor. He never had a problem after that!!! It was too ugly to steal!!! Course, you could see him coming a mile off....


Newport,

Totally agree. Get out there and do it... just be couscious of what you are getting into. I always find people soooo ignorant of the range of cell phones and VHF.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Cruising Dad: I read your profile, you have a lot of offshore experience. I have singlehanded from Annapolis to England. That was an amazing trip. I also singlehanded from Newport-Bermuda and back to Annapolis. I have also done the Annapolis-Bermuda trip several times on different boats both in races and cruising. It's definitely one of my favorite crossings.


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

http://www.kestrelboat.com/plan.html

Read this, especially the part about "Watch Duty" and I think you'll see.


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## Birdface (Jul 24, 2006)

*Wow*

I have to get my act together! Reading all of this makes me realize just how unprepared I am for any serious cruising, let alone bluewater.

With that said... anyone need a crew hand out of Boston, MA? 

This thread has been one of the better ones to date.

Thanks all you sea-dogs for your advice and links and lessons.

-M


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"What's the big deal about off coast cruising?"
Well, if your brother was in the service he may be familiar with the phrase "It's the little things that kill you."
On a coastal cruise, you can often duck in if you need help or something runs out. Bluewater? You may have to hold your breath for seven to ten days.
Coastal, you can have one water tank. Bluewater? You'd better know that one tank can leak, or get salt water contamination in a storm, and have alternatives. 
Weather? Can you forecast a week in advance and be sure of it? And can you handle the boat when the forecast was wrong? If one of you gets physically THROWN at sea (and even in 6-8 foot waves that's easy) and breaks something, can the other sail the boat solo till you make landfall?

Then there are more subtle things. Once you are out of sight of land, there's an optical illusion that you are in a "bowl", and some folks just freak out from it. The illusion, and the reality of no land.

If the rigging fails (all it takes is one bad cotter pin and you can lose the rig) can you jerry-rig it to continue? What if you lose the rudder? That happens too.

Blue-water requires either luck (which trumps all hands<G>) or being prepared with a much longer "what-if" list and putting much more prep into the boat to prevent problems.

Even Tanya Abbae (sp?) had said that but for luck and the Gods, she would have never reached her first landfall (Bermuda, IIRC) and been lost at sea, because she was learning navigation AFTER she set off.

There's an old prayer about "the ocean is so big and my ship is so small"....that's what it comes down to.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Most important don’t forget the rum and beer. I normally take 2 cases of beer with but it only lasts a few days.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hellosailor-

Also, just remember that the earliest sailors and navigators were learning when they did their first journeys, and the boats today and equipment are far better than what they had back then.

BTW, it is Tania Aebi....and rather easy to find via google or amazon.com.



Cruisingdad said:


> SD,
> 
> I was smart enought to try and take the photos. Got some of them as they were swiming off the port side but it looks like crud. Sea was spraying all over the lens. I put it in my book anyway. My wife was also kind enough to to shoot a picture of me the next morning after that night. No, I will not share that one. Let's just say that I learned that EVERYONE GETS SEA SICK... we all just have different thresholds!!


LOL. you're killing me... I think I have a good idea of what the photo of you looks like...  I've seen lots of people in that condition... Fortunately, my threshold is pretty damn high.


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## yachtsea (Aug 14, 2006)

I really appreciate all the thoughtful replies. Some real time and effort went into your answers, and they are great. When you're not from a sailing family, or have much experience of your own, its easy to read the stories and guides and begin to think you need to be 10 feet tall in a 70ft boat with 50 years of experience to do lots of bluewater sailing – or you're a crazy fool. And it's discouraging. You being to make lists of things to learn, and time to practice, and stuff to buy, and it's easy to think you will never be ready. On the flip side some stories and people will tell you to just start sailing east in the first dinghy you can find, that you dont need anything. That everyone else are ninies. Of course most reasonable people will understand the truth is between those two poles. But then the devil is in the details. Do I need an autoinflating life raft if I have a dinghy? Competant sextant skills if I have a GPS? – on and on and on infinitem – and no experience to base those decisions on because you dont want to go too far in your boat without those answers. 

This site, and threads like this, and most of all the people with the experience and comitment to spend the time to answer questions and participate, is awesome. Awesome in the most literal definition of the word, I am struck with awe. 

To sum up, your guys rock, thanks.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

You should have Sextant skills as a backup to the GPS, especially if you're going on bluewater passages. 

As for liferafts... not really a necessity, but YMMV... and some people think they're necessary, others not....


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

That is DEAD wrong sailing dog. We've had this discussion before and GPS is WAY safer and more accurate than Sextant and while the skills are nice to have...Three - $100 GPS's in a pelican case with batteries is WAY safer than one GPS and sextant skills which can easily put you on a reef with their 2 mile accuracy if you're good! Not one out of 10 bluewater cruisers uses a sextant anymore and to suggest it is necessary is ridiculous in this day and age. 
Going offshore without a liferaft is also insane if your boat doesn't have self flotation. What are you going to do if the boat gets knocked down and starts sinking...hope the dinghy will save you?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> That is DEAD wrong sailing dog. We've had this discussion before and GPS is WAY safer and more accurate than Sextant and while the skills are nice to have...Three - $100 GPS's in a pelican case with batteries is WAY safer than one GPS and sextant skills which can easily put you on a reef with their 2 mile accuracy if you're good! Not one out of 10 bluewater cruisers uses a sextant anymore and to suggest it is necessary is ridiculous in this day and age.
> Going offshore without a liferaft is also insane if your boat doesn't have self flotation. What are you going to do if the boat gets knocked down and starts sinking...hope the dinghy will save you?


Yes, you and I have decidedly different opinions on GPS... but that's fine...that is a personal preference in many ways.

My boat is a multihull and is very, very, very unlikely to sink. It has buoyancy compartments forward and aft in each of the hulls. For me, a liferaft really doesn't make sense. I've also worked a bit to make my boat much more resistant to sinking... floatation bags, foam filled areas, etc.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog said:


> You should have Sextant skills as a backup to the GPS, especially if you're going on bluewater passages.
> 
> As for liferafts... not really a necessity,


 Titanic ?


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## captronr (May 10, 2006)

*What can go wrong????????*

I tried to post something I thought might be helpful and I was blown off.

Well you guys have fun. I'm out; I don't need this crap.

Don't bother replying to this; I won't be back.

Ron


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## yachtsea (Aug 14, 2006)

captronr said:


> A sailor friend of mine had some sage advice that I've tried to follow:
> 
> Take a tall, cold adult beverage and a lawn chair where you can observe your boat. Drink a little, then think VERY DARK DISTURBING thoughts about what all could go wrong with your boat "out there". Have another sip. Now think very dark disturbing thoughts about what could go wrong with YOU out there.
> 
> ...


Thats the kind of bullshit that sounds smart but keeps people from ever thinking they are ready to go. It serves no purpose other than to make people who have gone feel like big men.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

If you overthink it, you'll never go... if you never go, you'll never understand what you're missing. There is a time to think, and then once you've gotten it good enough... go. 

Perfection is the enemy of progress. You will spend 50% of your time trying to get everything perfect... good enough is just that, good enough...and allowing things to be good enough, but not perfect will save you time, money and aggravation, and allow you get out sailing and cruising far sooner than you would if you need to have TWO solutions for every problem. 

There are some things that require multiple solutions, there are some that require a good solution, and there are somethings that you don't even need to worry about, but are worrying about anyways.


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## chrondi (Mar 24, 2004)

Yachtsea's way of thinking (What's the big fuss fellows, let me leave my dream!) would meet complete indifference by other sailors if only his behaviour (and similar behaviour by other like-minded people) did not put in danger other people's lives. That is why I repeat that inexperience at sea (in connection with the task undertaken) equals reckless attitude toards the sailing community. Do you let people drive on the road without having a proper licence?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

jorjo said:


> Titanic ?


Apparently, Jorjo isn't capable of understanding that there is a vast difference between a steel ship, that has only one hull, and a trimaran, made of lighter-than-water buoyant materials, like a balsa-cored deck, and with three separate hulls-each capable of supporting the entire weight of the flooded boat and keeping it afloat independent of whether the others are full of water or not.

I also don't intend on sailing in iceberg laden waters...

Steel sinks in water, balsa cored fiberglass does not.

Yes, all boats can sink... but some are far more likely to sink than others. A holed trimaran is very unlikely to sink, especially if it was built with buoyancy compartments in all three hulls. A holed monohull, with a lead keel is far more likely to sink.


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## yachtsea (Aug 14, 2006)

chrondi said:


> Yachtsea's way of thinking (What's the big fuss fellows, let me leave my dream!) would meet complete indifference by other sailors if only his behaviour (and similar behaviour by other like-minded people) did not put in danger other people's lives. That is why I repeat that inexperience at sea (in connection with the task undertaken) equals reckless attitude toards the sailing community. Do you let people drive on the road without having a proper licence?


There are people, and thankfully many on this very site (both in this thread and in others), that offer well thought out and level headed advise. Even on topics where there is no clear answer, like most of them, and they disagree, they still prove invaluable because of their basis on real world first hand experience - and just as importantly their reasonableness.

Then there are people who just want to convince a person they are too stupid, inexperienced and poor to ever go far on a boat. If I come off brash occasionally its because I've lost all patience for this second type of person. They are leaches that thrive off sucking peoples dreams out of them. It makes them feel smart. It's a shame too, because they aren't usually dumb, but lack some part of their personality that can only be filled by breaking down others.

If I really felt "What's the big fuss fellows, let me [live?] my dream!" I wouldn't be here, I'd be gone. I do wonder whats the big fuss, but only because I dont know, not because I don't believe there is a reason to make a fuss. I want to know so I can deal with and overcome, not so I can sit in a deck chair with a beer and despair.

Maybe it's a fine line, and maybe it's all in my head. But telling me I'm likely to kill other people tyring to save my pathetic ass because of my all too common reckless attitude puts you in the leach column, imho.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Gotta say I agree with Ron and suspect Yachtsea has a macho problem. There's a difference between making claims about macho and "real men" and simply looking at a hazardous sport, understanding it, and PREPARING for it.

Case in point, NASDS used to include a formal "harassment day" in their SCUBA classes. Anyone who could be forced to surface--by intentional harassment--before their tank was empty, flunked the class and was not certified. No one else did it, they claimed it was too dangerous and someone could panic and drown during the session. NASDS countered that if someone was panic-prone, they'd rather have them panic in a controlled environment than panic out in the real world after they'd been certified.

To me sailing is the same way. There's no macho involved. If you understand the possible dangers and failure modes, and you prepare yourself to deal with them, you won't have to stop and think (or panic) when you need to deal with a problem. If you go out into the blue with no idea of what might happen...it may be too late to plan ahead. 

Ever try to find a rigging cutter "right now" when you're two days out and the mast has gone over the side? Oh, gee....if you didn't pack one, and don't know what else might do, you're screwed.

And if some people get scared away by the mention of possible problems, that might be a VERY GOOD THING. It might just save their lives.


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## yachtsea (Aug 14, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> Gotta say I agree with Ron and suspect Yachtsea has a macho problem. There's a difference between making claims about macho and "real men" and simply looking at a hazardous sport, understanding it, and PREPARING for it.
> 
> [...]
> 
> To me sailing is the same way. There's no macho involved. If you understand the possible dangers and failure modes, and you prepare yourself to deal with them, you won't have to stop and think (or panic) when you need to deal with a problem. If you go out into the blue with no idea of what might happen...it may be too late to plan ahead.





yachtsea said:


> If I really felt "What's the big fuss fellows, let me [live?] my dream!" I wouldn't be here, I'd be gone. I do wonder whats the big fuss, but only because I dont know, not because I don't believe there is a reason to make a fuss. I want to know so I can deal with and overcome, not so I can sit in a deck chair with a beer and despair.


Rigging cutter, is that differnt than a hacksaw?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Rigging cutter, is that differnt than a hacksaw?"
Could be. A hacksaw will work, eventually, but how many daysailors carry them? With sharp new metal cutting or carbide blades rather than woodworking blades?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> To me sailing is the same way. There's no macho involved. If you understand the possible dangers and failure modes, and you prepare yourself to deal with them, you won't have to stop and think (or panic) when you need to deal with a problem. If you go out into the blue with no idea of what might happen...it may be too late to plan ahead.
> 
> Ever try to find a rigging cutter "right now" when you're two days out and the mast has gone over the side? Oh, gee....if you didn't pack one, and don't know what else might do, you're screwed.
> 
> And if some people get scared away by the mention of possible problems, that might be a VERY GOOD THING. It might just save their lives.


It is one thing to think about what the dangers and possibilities are, and it is another to allow those possibilities paralyze you. I know what the risks of sailing long distances are, and I choose to face those risks, even knowing that those same risks may kill me...I'd rather be sailing, and facing those risks, rather than worrying about those risks and not sailing.

However, captnronr, seems to be allowing looking at the risks to paralyze him.

For instance, sailboats are far more attractive to lightning than other boats, due to a tall stick in them. Lightning is not something you can prevent, or take much in the way of preparations for, especially since there is so little known about how lightning really is affected by the possible preparations.


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## Michael201 (Jul 30, 2006)

Interesting topic. I find myself agreeing with both sides. As a pilot and owner of a single engine plane, I've had to deal with similar thoughts before I received my license, as I purchased my plane and every time I fly.

There is no substitute for being prepared, trained, and experienced. That said, I would have not received my license if I had listened to all the "why would you do that" friends and relatives. I would not have purchased as high performance plane if I had listened to all the "don't start with as complex a plane" people. I thought if I was licensed to fly a single engine, I should and could do so with any reasonable single. I received 8 hours initial training in the plane and have not had a single regret since day one.

People die almost every day in the US in small plane crashes. I read about them at an FAA site weekly. I read them to understand that in most cases, its pilot error but in a lot it's just plain bad luck with mechanical failure of some type. You have to be a bit macho to strap one on knowing that you might be dead if you loose your engine over the wrong terrain. So be it. Life is full of chances. Just be as prepared as you can as to feel comfortable. If you wait for perfection, you'll be waiting forever. I love to fly and it saves me time with my business.

I have little experience but am planning on getting up to speed to leave in 2 years for my global sail. I'm going to have a highly experienced captain onboard until I feel reasonably comfortable with the systems. I'm sure I'll pick up the sailing skills rather quickly. My wife on the other hand.... (Kidding, she is quick)

My sister is an artist. She is painting a picture of our new boat (to be built next year) that we are going to frame and have aboard. On it is the following quote:

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do then by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark twain

Right now, that sounds like a plan....


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog said:


> Apparently, Jorjo isn't capable of understanding that there is a vast difference between a steel ship, that has only one hull, and a trimaran,


Oh..... I see..... I guess that makes me........

No...

Wait.

Hang On.......

Everybody here has a trimaran?

ah,,, no, ok, thought not

So lets see.. The suggestion that not needing a life raft applies to one idiot that can't see any benift in having something to step onto if his boat clobbers something like a 40' semi summerged container out there and ends up as matchwood?

Heres a thought Dog......

Not everyone here has a boat with training floats on it  
You may want to opt out of a life raft, but I don't think it particularly clever to EVER suggest that its OK to not need one.

Normally I wouldnt bother replying to something as idotic as your suggesting 'cept some less than bright sailor could read your suggestion and THINK it ok to head out there without a liferaft.

Your suggestion that I'm not capable of Understanding is right. I cannot understand HOW ANYONE could EVER state in public that Its an option to go blue without a life raft least someone put their life in danger by misunderstanding.

For an experienced Sailor you don't seem too brighton this issue Dog.
Havent you lerned by now that other sailors will always THINK you said something that wasnt actually said and screw up accordingly?

When the site is ALL trimaran owners you may have a point .
Untill then ANY suggestion that a life raft is not needed is simply gross stupidity on a public forum

LIFE RAFTS ARE A BASIC REQUIREMENT (_unless your some arrogant trimaran owner you likes to beleive his tub is unsinkable_)


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Let me address your points-



jorjo said:


> So lets see.. The suggestion that not needing a life raft applies to one idiot that can't see any benift in having something to step onto if his boat clobbers something like a 40' semi summerged container out there and ends up as matchwood?


First, I keep a proper watch and avoid semi-submerged containers.. but obviously you're not a good enough sailor to do so... Also, my trimaran has a very shallow draft so it would have to be a floating container to really cause me a problem.



jorjo said:


> Heres a thought Dog......
> 
> Not everyone here has a boat with training floats on it
> You may want to opt out of a life raft, but I don't think it particularly clever to EVER suggest that its OK to not need one.


 I guess that Ellen McArthur needs a boat with training floats on it... Hmm...you're too big an idiot to worry about.

I said that it was not a necessity, and that some people think they are, and others do not. *You might want to learn to read, dyslexic or not...your stupidity is inexcusable.*

*Life rafts are not a necessity... Just look at the 1979 Fastnet Race... Many of those who got into life rafts ended up dead, and their boats were found floating along quite happily after the race.

*Historically, the success rate of life rafts is not very good. Also, many life rafts do not work when needed, but you rarely hear about that, since the people who were depending on the faulty life rafts died. At the Safety At Sea seminar, earlier this year, it was mentioned that about 40% of the life rafts failed. Hmm... I'd rather set my boat up to be as safe and unsinkable as possible than have to take those odds. But, maybe you're too stupid to understand and realize that avoiding the use of one is far better than depending on one.



jorjo said:


> Normally I wouldnt bother replying to something as idotic as your suggesting 'cept some less than bright sailor could read your suggestion and THINK it ok to head out there without a liferaft.
> 
> Your suggestion that I'm not capable of Understanding is right. I cannot understand HOW ANYONE could EVER state in public that Its an option to go blue without a life raft least someone put their life in danger by misunderstanding.


My suggestion was that each person has to evaluate whether they want a life raft or not. *Many sailors have gone out in the blue and done so perfectly safely without a life raft.* Again, A LIFE RAFT IS NOT A NECESSITY.

Most life rafts are incapable of sustaining life without proper preparation...the life raft by itself is not all that useful. *If you have a life raft, but do not take the time to stock the food, water, emergency supplies and an EPIRB, then using the raft is likely not going to prolong your life in any case. *

Sailing is a sport with serious risks... A life raft is not going to change that. A life raft doesn't prevent the boom from hitting you in the head, during an accidental gybe and killing you...it doesn't prevent a wave from sweeping you from the deck... Get a clue.



jorjo said:


> For an experienced Sailor you don't seem too brighton this issue Dog.
> Havent you lerned by now that other sailors will always THINK you said something that wasnt actually said and screw up accordingly?


If you're too stupid to understand what I wrote, that's too bad... most of the sailors on this site aren't as dumb as you.



jorjo said:


> When the site is ALL trimaran owners you may have a point .
> Untill then ANY suggestion that a life raft is not needed is simply gross stupidity on a public forum
> 
> LIFE RAFTS ARE A BASIC REQUIREMENT (_unless your some arrogant trimaran owner you likes to beleive his tub is unsinkable_)


A life raft is never going to be a necessity on a sailboat-bluewater passage maker or not, regardless of whether it is a multihull or monohull.

I was out this last week on a larger monohull, and we did not have a life raft. We made some open ocean passages, and it isn't an issue for a competently sailed boat... Oh yeah, yours won't qualify.

I never said my boat was unsinkable... anything can sink... but it is far less likely to sink that the POS that you sail on... and far less likely to have issues with sinking, since you don't seem to have the intelligence, skills or abilities to prevent yourself from getting into a situation where your boat will sink.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

SDOG: Get up on the wrong side of the bed???? You have a day sailor and you are giving people crap like you are going to cross the Atlantic on your 25 foot trimaran! lol. I don't care what they told you in some goofy "Safety at Sea Seminar" it is suicide to go out in the Ocean without a life raft. What happens if you boat actually sinks? At that point all you can say, "Doh," and wish you had the 60 percent raft. Just remember the old adage that you should step up out of your sinking ship.


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## Craig Smith (Jun 21, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Also, my trimaran has a very shallow draft so it would have to be a floating container to really cause me a problem.
> 
> Life rafts are not a necessity...


SailingDog just a few objections:

- Shallow draft isn't going to help regarding a container, it's either floating or it's not. "Submerged" means it's like an iceberg. Usually they fill with water but the contents keep them just afloat. In fact shallow draft may do you more harm than good - you could skate over it  and open up a big tear in your hull, or rip off your centerboard whereas a monohull might just bounce off! We have hit a few things that made the mast shake and took a few knots off the log  and kept going without too much worrying - there's nothing like 20mm of plate metal.

- Bad weather is not the only reason a yacht may sink. Containers have been mentioned but two of the other principle dangers feared by experienced cruisers are *whales* and *fire*. A strong hull, metal maybe, can deal with the former, but there's nothing you can do about the latter. If it catches and spreads, you better have an exit strategy.

... For the benefit of the thread starter, who hopefully hasn't been scared off yet 

How's the anchor?


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Craig-

The container problem is one that is growing. A container that is just awash, a few inches below the surface presents probably the greatest of the risks from containers, but from what I have seen, that is not all that common a phenomenon. 

20 mm of steel is going to be able to shrug off far more than most GRP or laminate hulls. However, I still standby my statement that A LIFE RAFT IS NOT A NECESSITY. It is an option. One has to evaluate whether taking that option makes sense to them or not. 

I know many cruising sailors who have chosen not to carry a life raft. In some cases, their reasoning is that their boat is their home...and having a life raft makes it far to easy to abandon their home—and that not having one, forces them to take the precautions and every action to preserve it. It is far harder to do a difficult thing when you have an easy out.

I am aware of fire being a serious risk, as are whales. 

Fire is a reasonable risk, that if proper precautions are taken, can be minimized. I'm not going to be sailing on a boat with loose electrical wiring and leaky propane tanks...

There are some risks that can not be mitigated. If a whale has decided to attack your boat, unless is it a metal hull, your pretty much done... and there is nothing that says it will stop attacking you, just because you have stepped up into a life raft.

The anchor is great...my only problem with it is that it is very happy to bring up 30 lbs. of mud and sand with it when it comes back up. I'm in the process of installing a windlass, as my back is not too happy with hauling 50 kg of chain, anchor and mud up by hand.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Saildog-
"Life rafts are not a necessity... Just look at the 1979 Fastnet Race... Many of those who got into life rafts ended up dead,"
An odd point that in the larger context, defeats itself. Not that I completely disagree with you, but as the findings of the Fastnet aftermath showed, simply HAVING a life raft is not good enough. To sail offshore safely, one requires the knowledge of WHEN AND HOW TO USE the life raft. "Fastnet, Force 10" probably has done more than anything else except the USCG Safety at Sea seminars (which may have gotten it from the same source!) to popularize the saying "Never step into a life raft until you need to step UP into a life raft."

Along with inadequecies of painters and other problems which have been partially addressed every few years.

In a cat or tri, you may or may not have a hull still afloat to use as a life platform. But every offshore race safety committee still requires a life raft. ORC, etc., ALL require it for "offshore" classed races. Can an innertube or broken hull work well enough? Maybe. Should anyone go offshore without knowing and understanding these issues? Again, maybe. Someone has to prove Darwin knew his stuff.

Different solutions and choices don't make something RIGHT or WRONG. As long as they are informed choices, or whoever made them is willing to accept the consequences.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

OK...so everyone but SD agrees that safe bluewater sailing requires a certified life raft and a crew that knows how to deploy it. This has been beaten to death. Can we move on as this is getting ridiculous and the thread has wandered considerably. If this is still of some interest to someone...maybe they could start a "Liferaft or Not" thread. 
"HelloS" is right...whatever the safety issue...be informed and make your own choices...but make sure the crew you endanger with some of those choices s informed and gets a CHANCE to make a choice too.


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Not to rain on the whole life raft concept or anything. I tend to over-prepare for anything I'm doing, but I'm pasting an interesting snippet from the actual account of SV Satori, from the 1991 Halloween "Perfect" storm.

"While lying ahull in heavy weather a knockdown is always a possibility but not a severe threat. The boat went over approximately ninety degrees and again righted herself. During this knockdown the life raft was torn from its deck mount. Hitting the water the raft - as designed - inflated immediately and its strobe light began flashing. Ray went up on deck, checked that there was no damage to the mast or any of the radar equipment on the mast. The inflated raft whipping around at the end of its tether would have been unsafe, so he cut it loose."

So, while being prepared is very important, it's always a good idea to not put too much faith in any one device. Read the entire account here:
http://www.rainbowchaser.com.au/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rainbowc/allegro.pl?newsletter142


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Camraderie: Here is a good change of subject. I love your boat. It looks like you have done quite a bit of work. Where are you now and what are your future plans. (I checked out your site, very nice). 

Seabreeze: I wouild think in a Hurricane, the last thing you would to see is your life raft floating away! By the way, I read Ellen McArthur's book and I am aware that she banged a container during the Vendee Globe. But I have never seen one in the Ocean. I have seen lots of whales, a Man of War, a Whale Shark, lots of long lines, even a refrigerator (About 300 miles off of New York), but no container. Maybe I am just not trying hard enough.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"OK...so everyone but SD agrees that safe bluewater sailing requires a certified life raft " Who said anything about certified?<G> Certification is somewhat of a racket. Yes, there are honest shops who do a careful job and charge reasonably for their time. And then there are those who don't want customers to watch or ask, don't quite do the job right, pretend it is a holy mystery (it ain't) or even fill the case with ballast and steal the raft. Yes, the USCG closed one of those after someone's raft wasn't repacked in its case some years ago.

While commercial vessels are required to have certified repacks, I'd rather treat a life raft like any other life support equipment I'm going to use. I found out long ago with SCUBA gear that anything I gave out for maintenance, had to go back again to make it 100% right. But anything I just learned to DO myself...got done better, faster, cheaper.

A repack is the same thing, if you can put hospital corners on a bedsheet and figure out what "leak" means...you can probably do your own repack. And you'll probably be paying a great deal more attention to how it is done.

I think life rafts would be way more common--if they didn't cost so damned much every year, even AFTER the purchase price. And then, like Zodiac, some of then are condemned after 10(?) years and can't even be certified and repacked by the dealers. A sign of a quality product, hmmm?

I'm told that any life raft in a deck cannister is vulnerable, some folks feel that is simply a poor position for them and stow them belowdecks. Some builders are thoughtful enough to provide a well in the cockpit (usually just aft of the bridgedeck or under it) so that the raft can be both secure AND convenient to deploy. That's an awfully expensive retrofit if you have one of the many yachts that don't provide that option though. (Unless you've got a metal boat and a torch handy.<G>)


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Surf, I wouldn't want to see it floating away, but the passage was pretty clear in that it was flying around by tether, potentially more of a hazard than anything else. It doesn't matter if one likes it or not, the fact is, plans don't always work out as intended. In Satori's case, they had it, but it was potentially deadly flying about like that. So much for stepping up into it. Doesn't mean you shouldn't have one. Just means nothing is 100%.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Well that's true. You only need to look at the weather report. But in no way does that confirm the point that Sailing Dog is trying to make that it's not necessary. I would wager that Life Rafts save many more lives than not.


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## dorourke (Aug 11, 2006)

Hey Yachtsea,
Go for it, but start at it with short legs in the Bahamas where youre not far from help if you need it. Train yourself and remember this thread as you go on. It isn't the destination that is fufilling but the trip there. I have no true experience with blue water sailing as I sail the western end of lake Erie. I can only say this, "you could die of a car reck just going to the grocery store much easier than you would flying or sailing". God bless and good sailing.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

DoRourke: Don't poo-poo Lake Erie...wait, I guess it was "Superior that never gives up it's dead." lol. But seriously, the Great Lake sailing is supposed to be pretty radical. I am with you 100 percent. Just sail.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Surfesq said:


> Well that's true. You only need to look at the weather report. But in no way does that confirm the point that Sailing Dog is trying to make that it's not necessary. I would wager that Life Rafts save many more lives than not.


I doubt it...

There are probably very few statistics for the number of people who deployed a life raft and died. If no one survived to tell the tale, then it is very likely to be under-reported. You do hear about the person or group of people that were saved by their life raft... but those stories are relatively uncommon.

Yet, far more boats go missing than there are stories about surviving due to a life raft. Many of those boats are equipped with a life raft, and if no one survives-doesn't that indicate that the life raft failed to perform its duties. Look at Moquini, which was a yatch in an offshore race, which required a liferaft. Yet, there were no survivors-this was a well-founded and well-equipped sailboat, equipped and setup for open ocean racing, and run by an experienced crew.

Given the issues with liferafts, their reliability, the problems with certifying them, and their actual safety-*liferafts are not a necessity-they are a choice. * If you feel that they are a neccessity, go ahead and buy one, and make sure you maintain it.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

SurfEsq...Thanks...we love her. Yes...we did a lot of work on her as we found her on the hard in a sad state of upkeep. But ...her bones were good and with the right purchase price we were able to afford bring her back nicely and she is wonderful at sea. Presently aboard for the summer in NC outer banks and just loving it here. Plans are a bit up in the air right now due to family issues but we'll probably haul her this winter instead of heading south again....getting tired of that after 5 trips. Maybe head north next spring. Haven't seen Nova Scotia yet. Life is good!


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

No, don't get me wrong, Surf. I'm all for life-rafts, and any other safety equipment I can pull together. However, this is getting into the same territory as seat belts, and I don't even wanna get into that.


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## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

This thread has been an interesting read for the first 4 pages or so. Lots of good insights from some very experienced offshore cruisers. I will readily admit that I have no interest in being 1,000 miles offshore in 50 foot seas, it just holds no interest for me. However, I would like to cruise the east coast down to the Keys, Bahamas, that sort of thing. However, I would submit a question to some of the scarier respondents. (Note I said question so as not to imply that I am speaking from my own experience). For one, I read alot of sailing publications & read forums to pick up general knowledge and I don't seem to recall that cruisers are dropping like flies out there. Seems to me that other than racers in the Roaring Forties, most ordinary folks make it to their destinations. I seem to recall Jimmie Cornell saying that in 20 years or so of cruising he had experienced relatively few stormy days. This seems to be due to sensible passage planning (avoiding known storm seasons) and the use of weather forecasting equipment. It also seems to me that many parts of the world are real sewers and that alot of drama regarding piracy & crime might be avoided by traveling to safer areas. I would warrant that one could sail from the west coast to Hawaii, Tahiti, New Zealand and Australia (a relatively lenghty sail) or in many parts of the world without encountering pirates. If you choose to cruise the Red Sea, Phillipines or the South China Sea, you take your chances. Just a few thoughts and, once again, thanks for the insights. I would bet that were I to ride my motorcycle on dry land the same distance that you do in the open ocean, I have statistically a much higher chance of dying than you do. But I guess the challenge is what makes it fun. After all, ya gotta die of something, hopefully not boredom.

Mike


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Well said Mike.


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