# Lake Michigan Boat Question



## michigancruisers (Sep 12, 2008)

We are planning on moving up to larger boat capable of sailing the Great Lakes. Home port will be in Traverse City. One of the divisions often cited on this forum is the coastal cruiser vs the off shore boat. We plan on doing at least some cross-lake sailing (Lake Michigan). Would people consider cross Lake Michitgan “off shore”? We are looking at a new (or newish) Catalina 309-320-350 and everyone here seems to think that Catalinas are not off shore boats. Are we looking at the wrong type of boat?


Any thoughts?
Thanks

Frank


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

My son and I sailed a Hobbie across a few years ago.

*The limiting factor is never the boat - it's the crew and the weather*. 
Ever hear of the Edmund Fitzgerald?


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

The Catalina would work fine for what you want. You just want to pick your weather window.


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

Agree - as long as you pick the weather you'll be fine. "Offshore" is generally for boats that will be out for many days, so long that you can't predict what the weather will be because they can only predict accurately a few days out. You can be across the lake by then.

Our hailing port is still Northport, MI, although we haven't been back for 8 years now. We understand its changed, but we miss it, and the area. Enjoy the Cherry Festival for us!


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Echoe-ing what's been said above, crossing Lake Michigan is a matter of finding the right weather window. Many lesser/smaller boats than C309's/320's/350's do it all the time. If you have the right winds and right conditions, the crossing should be a 8-14 hour affair, pending where you cross.


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## MrRichard965 (May 7, 2010)

*Any boat can take more than the passengers*

even the lightly constructed sailboat will take rough seas for 12 - 16 hours that it could take you to cross


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## michigancruisers (Sep 12, 2008)

So then people generally consider it "off shore". I would have thought so and we would have, of course, been careful about weather as I think you really are off shore. We also don’t just expect to “dash” across the lake but rather, sometimes, bee line it from TC down to Chicago. 100’s of miles down the center of the lake. I still wonder if the Catalina would be up to it. There is a difference between what is possible and what is reasonable. I don’t like the idea of having to duck into port unless it’s really necessary and I am wondering at what point will the boat brand start to influence the decision and is that point reach too quickly with the Catalina.

Additionally, all of the really significant ocean storms that I have been in have, frankly, not been as disconcerting as what I have seen in the Great Lakes. Last month sailing off San Diego the wind was blowing like hell and the waves were large, just about had the rail in the water and it was a blast because the waves generally didn’t break. A three foot chop in the lakes always seems to be white capped. I’ve seen waves wash over the flight deck of the USS America (I was on a tin can off to its port side) and the waves didn’t break. It was a great ride for us in the can but I would have worried if the top 20 or so feet of those waves were breaking.


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## MrRichard965 (May 7, 2010)

*short waves compared to ocean swells*

i have cross Lake MI many times...it is the short wave length that will beat you up...compared to the large swells (although the big pond gets those too)
serously, boats can take this with just minor problems


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Michigancruiser,

Depending on your needs the 309/320,etc., or even the old versions of them, are fully capable of cruising the Great Lakes. People leave TC, or Leland, or whereever every day of the season and cross to somewhere in boats a lot less seaworthy than the boats listed. 

That being said, beelining it because it is on the schedule, is not a prudent course of action on any of the Lakes. Staying out there because you are on that schedule not a good idea. Three foot breaking chop is uncomfortable, ten foot breaking waves a lot more uncomfortable, but the boats will take a lot more than you and your crew ever will in those situations. 

Crossing to Wisconsin from GT Light is a 70 mile straight line trip. Sailing, 70-100+ miles dependent on the winds. You are never more than 35 miles away from land out there, and that does not count the Islands. This certainly more than fits the description of Coastal , even if you decide to cruise down the middle of the lake to Chicago. Coastal also means that you have the ability to duck in somewhere when it gets bad. 

I also sail out of TC. I hope you enjoy the boat buying process and sailing the lake. There are lots of great places to visit, and if you get to half of them in ten years you will be the exception. If I were to guess, I would say that no more than 25% of the boats in the Bay leave the Bay more than once a year. Many never leave the lower Bay and stay south of Suttons Bay.I hope that you are one of the exceptions. Sail safe.

Oh, have you found a slip yet? I know that they are finally available in the Bay, which had been the exception for many years. Not a lot of extras, but I keep hearing that they are there.

I just looked at your list of Catalinas. Dependent on whether you have a slip already, I would add the C36 as well. I say that because many of the marinas in the Bay have 30' LOA slips and then jump to 38' LOA. None of the boats listed would likely go into a 30' slip as Catalina LOA is always longer than the name it carries. Therefore you will most likely end up in a 38' slip. Eliminate the early stages of 2' itis and buy a bigger boat first. The C36 is a great family cruiser and I know that they are available used in TC. Of course there are lots of different brand boats that also fit into the $ and use range.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

michigancruisers said:


> So then people generally consider it "off shore". I would have thought so....


No, it is not considered off shore sailing; Deffinitely Coastal Cruising.
The great thing about the Great Lakes is that you are very rarley more than 20 -30 miles to your next safe harbor.

Even on your jaunt from Traverse to Chicago there are plenty of oportunites to get off the water if things turn nasty. What is the widest point of the lake? Grand Haven to Milwaukee. At that point the lake is 83 Statute Miles wide, so even in the very middle of the fattest part of the lake you are still only 40 miles from a harbor.

This is not to say that the lake can not or will not kick you butt, but it is deffinitely not considered "Blue Water". (Other than the color) See Eryka's response; off shore means many days at sea with nowhere to hide.

Edit: I see I have repeated a lot of what Tomandchris has said. Good post T&C


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

I agree with all so far. However, is there something a bit different about the Great Lakes, than near shore coasts? On the West coast for example, I would imagine that you have storms that can be predicted earlier coming off the Pacific. In the midwest you could have only a moderate risk of T-storms and have a giant super-cell storm pop up in a matter of hours. Not long enought to duck into port even 40 miles away.

The PO of my Catalina 22 said he went across L. Michigan a few times. I wouldn't want to in a swing keel C22. A C30 or C36 yes, a Cape Dory 30, for sure... a Hunter anything, no way... just kidding:laugher


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

Barquito said:


> I agree with all so far. However, is there something a bit different about the Great Lakes,


The biggest difference is the wave patterns.
The waves here are Short and extremely steep. When I say steep, I mean steep. Like the face of a wall. When I say short, I mean short. Like you crash over the backside of one and you are IMMEDIATELY into the next. There is NO break in between waves.



> a giant super-cell storm pop up in a matter of hours.


Yes this is very true, but these squalls are usually very short lived. Nice and calm one minute, blowing like stink the next, and than calm again all within a matter of 20, 30 minutes.


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Grew up in TC... a classmate of mine was the first to windsurf across Lake Michigan around 1980. Yep, lot's of short steep chop. Thankfully they aren't amplified by tidal flow. Our neighbors had a Catalina 27 that they sailed up to the North Channel every summer. I'm sure it would have done fine headed south as well, and as others have said, it's all about the weather window. The question is, why beeline south when there's so much do north?


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Puddinlegs,

I think that answer to why south is...because you can. Tim will tell you there is little more beautiful then sitting off the Chicago skyline and looking in.

That being said, from Traverse City you won't do it often...unless you do the Mac every year.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Eryka,

I must have missed that you were a Northport based boat. It is easily the greatest location for convenience to the northern lake. I have been on their list for years and finally got the call this year....after I had commited to my slip and am on the hook for half the fee not being refundable. Hopefully next year.

You are correct, NP has changed a lot in the last 8 years. With the hospital 
closing the majority of the employement opportunities went with it. Restaurnats closed, empty store fronts, even quieter than before.

However, what a great place for a boat to be based. TC to NP can be an all day slog, but from NP you can easily go to Charlevoix for lunch or to Beaver. When we leave the Bay I always take the boat to NP to start the trip. 

Right now it is 40 degrees and predictions of 2-3" of snow tonight and tomorrow. You probably don't miss that part much.


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## BC100700 (Apr 21, 2010)

sailortjk1 said:


> The biggest difference is the wave patterns.
> The waves here are Short and extremely steep. When I say steep, I mean steep. Like the face of a wall. When I say short, I mean short. Like you crash over the backside of one and you are IMMEDIATELY into the next. There is NO break in between waves.


Since I am quite the novice and plan on honing my skills on Lake Michigan, I have a question about wave patterns. Would a multi hull handle the steep swells and chop better? I have been out numerous times in power boats in 4-5 footers but with power boats there is an element of fun to that size wave. It sounds like not as much under sail.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Actually, 4-5 footers are fine, and much smoother in a keel boat then a powerboat. On days that the wind is blowing the sails are out and the powerboats are tied to the dock. My pier partner and I used to laugh about the fact that we rarely saw each other. When he was out I didn't bother because there was not wind. When I was out it was too rough for his kids. He in a 30'SeaRay would have been fine, but his kids and wife did not like it at all. On days of 15 kts or more I see very few powerboats in our Bay. 

Too your question about multi's, you would sail flatter and be fine in the 4-5' stuff. Above that it just depends on the boat and the sailor....and the Admiral!!!!!!!!

I love to power up in big stuff in my powerboat, but my admiral is not with me and I don't do it for more than an hour. In the keel boat I love the stuff for hours on end and am definetely safer.


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## MrRichard965 (May 7, 2010)

I am crossing from Chicago to Holland MI on saturday....I across prepare for the worst case scenario especially early in the year when there will be no other boats...I drag an inflatable...perhaps the most important thing to do. I don't worry about the boat (29')and seas but about striking an unseen item and having an immediate sinking.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

MR. R,
I routinely make this run in the opposite path. 
We both take different approaches to the same destination.
I hate dragging anything behind me. Besides the additional drag through the water, if the seas kick up, I can not imagine what it would be like to swamp or turtle a dink while being towed. I think if that happened I would have to cut it loose.
It's not the unseen items, but rather the seen items. There is plenty of large commercial traffic out there that you can clearly see from many miles away. I try to give them at least a one mile cushion.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

BC100700 said:


> Would a multi hull handle the steep swells and chop better?


This is a very good question. I know mulithull sailors that say the boats handle it just fine. But I don't see how. I would think that the bridge deck would certainly make the ride very uncomfortable. What is the clearence of the bridge deck on most cat's? 3 Feet? 4 Feet? In a 7 foot steep wave, that portion of the hull has got to be taking a pounding. Also, if they were able to take it, why don't we see more of them on the Lakes? They may be out there, but in our experience, we don't see them on the water.


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## eryka (Mar 16, 2006)

tomandchris said:


> Eryka,
> 
> I must have missed that you were a Northport based boat. It is easily the greatest location for convenience to the northern lake. I have been on their list for years and finally got the call this year....after I had commited to my slip and am on the hook for half the fee not being refundable. Hopefully next year.
> 
> ...


We had a mooring off the Northport Bay Boat Yard, and ducked into the Muni. marina as transients whenever the winds blew from the SE. We didn't even bother trying to get on the marina wait list, though, at the time the wait was >5 years for our size boat and we knew we'd be transferred again before our names came up. Good for you for finally getting in - how long was your wait?

Really loved the trip to Charlevoix - did that many times in the 4 years we were in MI. But, although beautiful, the season was short ... snow??!! Now??!! I'll take the Bahamas, thanx, where we spent last winter.


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## BC100700 (Apr 21, 2010)

sailortjk1 said:


> Also, if they were able to take it, why don't we see more of them on the Lakes? They may be out there, but in our experience, we don't see them on the water.


That is true. In my many years of going to Grand Haven, I do not recall a lot of sailing cat's.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Eryka,

I cleared the list in 8 years, as I signed up for it a couple of years prior to buying this boat. Unfortunately, because I was already commited ( and paid for) in my old marina I have to wait and hope for next year. This is one of the first times in years that Northport has had more than one opening.

Yes, we did have sideways snow and temps in the 30's over the weekend. Today a beautiful clear day with highs in the 50's. Bouy in the middle of the lake says that the water temp is still below 40.

Enjoy the heat.

Tom


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Tim,

I think that the lack of multi's out there is more of a financial issue than a bridgedeck issue. I have never sailed on a large multi in more than 5 footers, but it was a smooth ride when we did. You would have to ask the multi sailors here for specific design issues, but I do see them out there in big stuff and sailed right they do just fine.

The financials of the boat and mooring will continue to keep the numbers down. The boat is pricey to begin with and then most of them are delivered on their own bottoms. There is a reason that you don't see lots of multi's at Strictly Sail. In addition, double wide slips are few and far between...and very expensive.

Some of the big cats and tri's are fun to watch. I was motoring into Northport at about 6 knots after the wind died last year coming back from Beaver Is. A 35' tri SAILED by me like I was standing still. I had dropped sail because we were only moving at 4 knots and losing light.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

I understand what you are saying.

It's just a bit puzzeling to me that they are so popular in the islands and other parts of the world but have never caught on to the degree that they have here.


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

Regarding running to shelter, I have more of a fear of a lee shore than waves in the middle of the Lake. It's not the lake but the hard things at the edge that will sink you. 
We do the run from Waukegan to the Manitou passage then north, and on the occasions that things got nasty, we stay out away from shore. 

This: uke is better than "BANG". Even when they're steep and breaking. 

Just my 2c.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

What would be more dangerous for a 27' boat: Say 20 foot ocean swells, or 15 foot short steep breaking waves on Lake Michigan.

If you mess up, or have a mechanical in 15' short/steep/breaking are you in deep trouble?


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Barquito said:


> What would be more dangerous for a 27' boat: Say 20 foot ocean swells, or 15 foot short steep breaking waves on Lake Michigan.
> 
> If you mess up, or have a mechanical in 15' short/steep/breaking are you in deep trouble?


20' ocean swells with a long period are no problem. 15' short/steep/breaking are boat breakers. Even half that is unpleasant if you're going upwind.


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

Barquito said:


> If you mess up, or have a mechanical in 15' short/steep/breaking are you in deep trouble?


Yes.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Barquito,

Definetely the 15' breakers would be a bigger problem. That being said, you don't get waves of that height on Lake Michigan without plenty of warning. If you don't look at your weather window before going out, you unfortunately deserve the ride that you will get....and the breaking of equipment that will probably occur. Noting wrong with a 27' boat crossing the lake, big problem for some boats and most sailors to experience it in 15 footers.

I would also agree with Cormeum about lee shores, but his boat is also going to be much more comfortable out there in those conditions. I would bet he would not set out if he knew they were going to occur as he has enough to maintain without punishing that beauty.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> Definetely the 15' breakers would be a bigger problem. That being said, you don't get waves of that height on Lake Michigan without plenty of warning. If you don't look at your weather window before going out, you unfortunately deserve the ride that you will get....


What would be typical wave conditions if you get caught out in a thunderstorm that is going south to north (plenty of time and fetch). It would be a relief to know that the really big stuff doesn't happen unless it has been blowing hard for a long time.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Thunderstorms are numerous on the lake, but usually short lived. They create wind and rain, which you adapt for, and are mostly gone in an hour or two. It takes time to build the big stuff 8' and above. 20 kts for 8-10 hours will do it, faster if above 20 knots. That is usually forecasted and you know to avoid it unless it is what you are looking for in the first place. There are those that love it.

The dirty little secret about the Lakes, and the Chesapeake, and many other places, is that you usually have more problems with lack of wind than an over abundance. Why would you need an engine, and why would they get as many hours as they do, if you always had wind? 

Example: A friend and I decided to sail to Wisconsin from the Michigan side a few years ago. We wanted to sail into Washington Island through "Deaths Door" because it sounded good and we had not done it. Left Traverse City in 25-30 Kts of new wind and had a ball the first day to Leland (about 50 miles). The wind was from the south so the first 35 miles were downwind and the fetch had not had enough time to build much more than 5 footers. Turned into the wind at the top of the Penninsula and the open lake had time to build 10's for the last 16 miles of the trip. However, the wind started to drop as it usually does at 6:00 PM and we had to motor into Leland.

The next day to Wisconsin the water was flat and cold and we sailed all of 5 of the 50 miles across. That night in the marina the wind was howling and thunderstorms and lightning were strong for 3 hours. In the morning we motored home...there was NO wind. 

Look at the weather, NOAA is usually pretty accurate, and make good decisions. I fear the cold water more than the winds, rain, and floating objects. Right now the water in the middle of Lake Michigan is 39.8 F. You have to stay on your boat or you will die very quickly. Have enough layers to stay warm out there as the air temp is usually very close to the water temp once you are 3-5 miles off the coast.

On that trip to Deaths Door the temperature on both sides of the lake was over 90's on those particular late June days. Motoring back across the air temp in the middle of the lake was 56F. Lake Michigan does not really warm up for a comfortable swim until July. Even then you have to define your comfort level as "cold".


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

Good info all. Like the OP I'm looking to move up to a Lake Michigan boat, maybe a few feet shorter. I will probably end up with a production boat, but, would prefere something more rugged.

I think the word that describes the boat I am looking for is "husky".


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Here's an ugly day last September when we decided to stay in port at Grand Haven. You'll notice the waves were nasty in the channel and just off the pier head, but I imagine if you were prepared for the wind (reefs, bare pools, hove-to, etc.) the waves offshore might have been tolerable. As has been said before, it's the hard points (rip rap, breakwaters, pierheads, shoals) near shore that will turn a stormy day into something much worse.

Here's the clip: YouTube - Lake Michigan Storm


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## puddinlegs (Jul 5, 2006)

Before you go all 'husky', there are many many many boats that are capable coastal cruisers and are absolutely fine for Lake Michigan. The issue is much more 'what type of sailing do I want to do?' , 'what creature comforts can't I live without?', and within your budget. Sure, if you're outfitting a boat for the worst possible conditions the lake has to offer in November, well, go Colin Archer. For the rest of the year, you'll be motoring. What's really more important on the lake is a reefing system that works well. When you need it, you need it, but when you don't, you'll also want to sail rather than motor. Most boats are tougher than those sailing them.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> Most boats are tougher than those sailing them.


Good point. I guess I want confidence that is the case (because I am a bit of a wimp).


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

puddinlegs said:


> Sure, if you're outfitting a boat for the worst possible conditions the lake has to offer in November, well, go Colin Archer.


Or Hans Christian


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

If I were to give any advice about boats for the big lakes, I'd think long, skinny and deep for a hull form. There are a lot of good makers new and used that will give a comfortable and safe ride, but shape is the first consideration, IMO. I'd rather have a smooth albeit wet ride than slam from wave to wave.

Even so, a few times I swear I was driving a 48' surf boat given the steepness of the waves. (the timing was not my choice on those days)

If you're cautious about weather and follow the good advice of waiting until conditions are suitable, the possibilities open up more of course.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

All the Catalina boats you've mentioned all will work fine in the Great Lakes. There is a very active owner's association there and you should post your concern's on their website to get some real feedback and not mere speculation. By your choice of boats, you must be looking towards ones of more recent vintage. You could expand your criteria and consider the C34 and C36. These boats have been cruised all up and down the West Coast from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com







Alaska</st1:State> to <st1:country-region w:st="on">Mexico</st1:country-region> and over to <st1:State w:st="on">Hawaii</st1:State> so I'm quite sure they can more than handle the conditions on the Great Lakes. If I was going to knock them at all, it would be in their speed production for winds less than 10 ks (and especially below 5 kts). The rig is simply too stiff to perform in these conditions.


http://www.catalinayachts.com/links.cfmfficeffice" /><O></O>


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

GeorgeB said:


> you should post your concern's on their website to get some real feedback and not mere speculation.


Hmmmm...
Not sure why you would say this considering all of the feedback has come from sailors currently sailing or having previously sailed the lake in question and also considering that most of the fedback offered has stated that most production boats would fit the bill?
Speculation? No, the responses came from first hand experience.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

I would agree with Tim on this, most of the responses were that a Catalina is great for the lakes. Pretty good on SF Bay for that matter. Must be a SF thing!

Oh, I sail a C34 and Tim a Bene so we kind of like production boats.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I am referring to the comments denigrating the three Catalina boats that were the subject of the original posting. To make blanket statements about their unsuitability for the Great Lakes is to ignore the fact that hundreds of Catalina's sail the lakes each year with great success. That is why I suggested to the OP that he contact people who actually sail Catalina's every day on all of the great lakes than to listen to people who obviously have no real experience sailing that line of boat.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

George, I think you need to re-read the posts on this subject. The only person that seemed at all nervous about the Catalina was the original poster and therefore he asked the question. His answers were all positive as to what works, and then it got off into seperate questions but no bashing.This thread has actually been a pleasure because there was a lack of CataBeneHunter bashing. It certainly happens here, but not as much as it used to.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Today is one of those days that you could be sailing down the middle of the lake, but you are going to be very uncomfortable based on the mid lake bouys. Rain coming down hard, winds only 10-20 Kts dependent on where you are, water temp 39.7, air temp 41, wind chill 35.
Actually not bad in August when the air temp is 80 +, just warm and wet. This time of year, hypothermic!


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

tomandchris said:


> Today is one of those days that you could be sailing down the middle of the lake, but you are going to be very uncomfortable based on the mid lake bouys. Rain coming down hard, winds only 10-20 Kts dependent on where you are, water temp 39.7, air temp 41, wind chill 35.
> Actually not bad in August when the air temp is 80 +, just warm and wet. This time of year, hypothermic!


I.E. a nice day out. :laugher


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

> If I were to give any advice about boats for the big lakes, I'd think long, skinny and deep for a hull form. There are a lot of good makers new and used that will give a comfortable and safe ride, but shape is the first consideration, IMO. I'd rather have a smooth albeit wet ride than slam from wave to wave.


Any production/classic-plastic boats that would fit this description?


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## cormeum (Aug 17, 2009)

Barquito said:


> Any production/classic-plastic boats that would fit this description?


what length are you looking at?


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## QUIETRIOT (Jun 28, 2010)

*Great Lakes Sailing*

I have sailed the Great Lakes since the 1970's. I have sailed many miles in a Columbia 22, Catalina 25, Catalina 27 and a Hunter31 with no problems. I have been caught out in many storms with winds gusting ove 60mph. I have made quite a few passages in excess of 100 miles. I think what you need to do is find a boat that is in good condition and do a little research, there a few boats manufactured that I would not even look at. I think that you will find that dockage is going to be your biggest problem as there is basically none to de found in T.C. Depending on the number of people in your party you may want to consider something with a trailer. Happy sailing!


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