# Rocna Anchors Has Been Sold !!!



## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Looks like Rocna Anchors has been sold to a Canadian company. I am hopeful "key personnel" does not mean the people who put them in this mess to begin with and they do the right thing and build the anchors to Peters Smith's original specifications.. Great design I just hope Canada Metals Pacific did not bite off more than they can chew in relation to the baggage the Rocna brand is now carrying around.

I wish Canada Metals Pacific the best in this venture!!

*Yachting Monthly Press Release*

The Press Release:
*

"CANADA METAL PACIFIC ACQUIRES ROCNA ANCHORS

Canada Metal Pacific of Vancouver has acquired New Zealand-based Rocna® Anchors. John Mitchell, president of Canada Metal Pacific, made the announcement.
The Rocna manufacturing license has been re-assigned to Canada Metal Pacific. Key Rocna personnel are being retained to assist with the transition and support ongoing activities.

"We have been searching for a line of anchors and anchoring products to complement our CMP™ anchor chain," stated Mitchell, "and are very excited to bring Rocna Anchors into the fold. Their superior performance fits well with our focus on innovation and quality products."

Canada Metal Pacific is a world-leading producer of CMP chain, Martyr™ marine anodes, Octopus™ marine autopilot drive systems and Intellisteer remote steering systems. Company and product details can be found at Canada Metal (Pacific) Limited.

"I am impressed with the manufacturing, engineering, and quality control capabilities of Canada Metal Pacific," said Peter Smith, designer of the Rocna anchor. "I look forward to working with them to continue Rocna's growth as the highest quality, best-performing anchor available."

Contact Rocna Anchors, 7733 Progress Way, Delta, B.C., Canada V4G 1A3. www.rocna.com; dealer locator: www.rocna.com/contact."*


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Wow! I don't see a problem with them recovering as long as they deliver.

I wonder what the full story is?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sounds like positive news. Despite being a Canadian company, is there any way to know if production returns to Canada or stays in China?


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Minnewaska said:


> Sounds like positive news. Despite being a Canadian company, is there any way to know if production returns to Canada or stays in China?


I would hope they would try and keep jobs in Canada but I am sure they anchors could be built with high quality in China. China was never the issue it was the management/leadership team at Hold Fast...

I am quite excited to see this brand/design get another chance as it is a truly tremendous anchor..


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## LandLocked66c (Dec 5, 2009)

Chinese anchors FTW!!! NOT

This is great news!


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

It would be fascinating to know what Hold Fast bought Rocna for and what they sold for. We'll probably never know.

Better news for sailors though.


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## night0wl (Mar 20, 2006)

Seems like another duck-out ala Tartan. I have a Rocna, but man...I worry about it now.


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## T37SOLARE (Feb 1, 2008)

Looking at the website, it appears they manufacture both in Canada as well as China:

CMP Global

But as Maine Sail says, as long as they go back to the original design specs it should be a non issue.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

I bet that the anchor will continue to be made in China. If the quality of the steel is going to improve... well, we have to wait and see. Maybe Rocna will do to Manson what they have do to them: A comparative destructive test, just to show that the new ones are better or equal in steel quality and resistance 

They sure need something like that to regain the lost credibility.

Regards

Paulo


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## rikhall (Feb 7, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> Despite being a Canadian company,


Ya - and what does that mean?

Rik


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

rikhall said:


> Ya - and what does that mean?
> 
> Rik


It means, "other than the obvious fact that they used to be made in Canada and are now owned by a Canadian company, is there any way to know if they will take production out of China and bring it back to Canada?"

According to the info posted by another, it unfortunately seems they are as likely as any to continue offshore production. They already do so.

Clear it up? What did you think it meant?


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## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

I don't see how changing the ownership of the design is going to improve the product if they continue to manufacture in China.

Maybe they can market a price point anchor made in China and a higher end/price anchor made in NA?

I have done business with the Chinese and was very successful until their business ethics became an issue. There is a market out there in which the primary concern is price, as long as buyers know what their getting up front but this new company needs to price the anchors more realistically if they expect buyers to over-look the inevitable quality issues. 

just my .02


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## JiffyLube (Jan 25, 2008)

At least China didn't buy them.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

jiffylube said:


> at least china didn't buy them.


:d:d:d:d


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

The purchase is really neither here nor there. It all depends on what they do with the newly acquired brand. A new owner that keeps the production the same, doesn't change anything. All this really means is that someone will have to do ANOTHER round of independent testing to see if the new owners have fixed the problems.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

SJ34 said:


> I don't see how changing the ownership of the design is going to improve the product if they continue to manufacture in China.


China was NEVER the issue. It was the MANAGEMENT who made the decision to cut the quality of the steel used in the anchors, not the Chinese.

It was the MANAGEMENT who lied about having a RINA Certification years before they actually had one, not the Chinese.

It was the MANAGEMENT who was intentionally lying to customers about the grade of steel used in their anchors while knowing full well that grade of steel was no longer being used and had not been used since 2008.

The Chinese had no part in this other than to manufacturer what they were told to manufacture.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

*Current Ronca issues...*

So what exactly is the problem with the current Ronca?

My friend with a larger Hunter (high freeboard, center cockpit - huge windage) broke loose and drug his Delta a few weeks ago. He had dragged once before and was determined to get a new hook. The guy that helped him reset (who holds and ASA Instructor cert) told him to get a Ronca.

I knew there were issues with Ronca, but wasn't sure exactly what they were, so I told him to skip the Ronca and get a Manson as it was just as well regarded for holding, less expensive and probably better built than the current Ronca. When I walked past his boat last weekend I noticed he was sporting a brand new Ronca. He never listens to me, though I tend to be pretty current on status of a lot of sailing related stuff from my time here and on SA.

I hope the Ronca works for him though I think much of his issue was technique ( I also think his Delta was slightly undersized for his boat). Maybe its just because I have a relatively primitive anchor system that requires a person at the bow, but I would never have confidence in the type of push button anchoring he uses. Being at the bow I can judge when and what rate to pay out rode, so I don't pile it on top of the anchor. I also like to have a hand on the rode so I can feel the anchor set and then to feel if its dragging when we back down. I don't think I'd ever be comfortable doing the entire anchor evolution from the helm with a pushbutton windlass.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

midlifesailor said:


> So what exactly is the problem with the current Ronca?


Peter Smith the anchors designer has insisted that the shanks on the anchor must be made from nothing less than 800Mpa steel. Hold Fast decided on their own this was no necessary so when they went to China to manufacture they also cut the grade of shank steel by a rather dramatic margin. Some of the low grade steel Rocna's have shown up looking like limp pool noodles.

if your friend bought it at West Marine they will take it back no questions asked as they have a recall on it. Hopefully the new company goes back to building these anchors to peters original specifications. The Manson Supreme uses 800 Mpa shank steel and the current Rocna uses....who knows, but it's not 800 Mpa steel..


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

To your point Maine, I thought the most telling part of that press release was Peter's comment regarding manufacturing and quality control. Hold Fast blew it on both of these - then compounded it with some exceptionally bad public relations and less-than-forthright comments.

It's definitely been an interesting soap opera.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

Hmm...given the bad press and current rep, the new owner might do well to change the "Rocna" name.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

The name does not need to be changed per say. BUT, many adds etc showing that the metals are now back to spec, tests to show the product meets spec etc would be good! 

Marty


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

blt2ski said:


> The name does not need to be changed per say. BUT, many adds etc showing that the metals are now back to spec, *tests to show the product meets spec etc would be good! *
> 
> Marty


that's what I have implied in a previous post. That seems to me indispensable as a marketing maneuver if they don't want to stay in the shadow of the suspicion that was raised by the Manson tests. I hope they understand that and I hope they deliver this time the quality that is expected from a top product.

Regards

Paulo


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## Pamlicotraveler (Aug 13, 2006)

It seems like a Tartan-like maneuver. Only time will tell.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Pamlicotraveler said:


> It seems like a Tartan-like maneuver. Only time will tell.


With todays internet talking amongst users, doing a Tartan/C&C maneuver would not be a good thing either! Hopefully that is what is not going on, as Rocna, Tartan and C&C are all good designs and products when properly built, managed etc.

marty


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Maine Sail said:


> if your friend bought it at West Marine they will take it back no questions asked as they have a recall on it. Hopefully the new company goes back to building these anchors to peters original specifications. The Manson Supreme uses 800 Mpa shank steel and the current Rocna uses....who knows, but it's not 800 Mpa steel..


I think he did buy it at West Marine, but it would have been in the past three weeks. Seems odd to me that West Marine would continue selling something they have a recall on.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Maine Sail said:


> China was NEVER the issue. It was the MANAGEMENT who made the decision to cut the quality of the steel used in the anchors, not the Chinese.
> 
> It was the MANAGEMENT who lied about having a RINA Certification years before they actually had one, not the Chinese.
> 
> ...


I've seen evidence that management misled about certification. That's enough to damn them.

Do we have evidence of Hold Fast actually issuing a spec that the Chinese factory lower the grade of steel? Is it possible that Hold Fast was covering up a lower quality they did not spec?

HF belongs under the bus either way, but I think this distinction is important to the new owner's approach and ultimately their success.


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

OK kids, place your bets, grab a cold beverage and some snacks.... What's the Over/Under on number of posts for this thread?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

cb32863 said:


> OK kids, place your bets, grab a cold beverage and some snacks.... What's the Over/Under on number of posts for this thread?


Calling for a radio check on Ch16 is illegal and poor seamanship.
Using a motor on a sailboat is safer than not using one.
You should still be entitled to rescue even if you did not have proper safety gear.
Using your bowthruster to dock, does not make you a bad sailor.
Your GPS/Chartplotter can be your primary source of navigation, but the Captain must monitor and cross reference it continuously.

and...... if Rocnas are still made in China, the new company will have to provide supporting documentation that it isn't just the same defective product..

That ought to create a complete meltdown........


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## marinextreme (Jan 15, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> I've seen evidence that management misled about certification. That's enough to damn them.
> 
> *Do we have evidence of Hold Fast actually issuing a spec that the Chinese factory lower the grade of steel?* *Yes I do.*
> 
> ...


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Wow. I guess this is a bit of vindication, eh Grant?


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## winddancer88 (Oct 2, 2006)

I don't expect any improvements:

The acquiring company is headquartered here:
CMP Global Ltd. 
The Business Center,
Upton, St. Michael 
Barbados BB 11103

and manufactures here:

JiaDa Specialty Metals Ltd.
#8-1 YongDingHe Rd.
Beilun, Ningbo, Zhejiang
China, 315807

For all I know, this could be the same manufacturer that makes the current Rocna.


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## mbetter (Jun 13, 2010)

winddancer88 said:


> I don't expect any improvements:
> 
> The acquiring company is headquartered here:
> CMP Global Ltd.
> ...


Even I understand that it's not about the manufacturer, it's about what management directs the manufacturer to do... and I'm an idiot.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

marinextreme said:


>


That's all well and good, but I don't see any evidence being presented.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

mbetter said:


> Even I understand that it's not about the manufacturer, it's about what management directs the manufacturer to do... and I'm an idiot.


How much direct familiarity do you have with Chinese contract manufacturing?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

kwaltersmi said:


> Hmm...given the bad press and current rep, the new owner might do well to change the "Rocna" name.


Perhaps they could change it to "_RONCA_", that's what most people appear to think the name is, anyway... (grin)



midlifesailor said:


> I think he did buy it at West Marine, but it would have been in the past three weeks. Seems odd to me that West Marine would continue selling something they have a recall on.


It wasn't a "recall", per se... West simply sent out a notification that there was information questioning whether the anchors had been built to the advertised specs, and inviting those who had concerns to contact Rocna, but would offer a full refund to anyone who wanted to return their anchor...

You're right, however, it is a bit odd they haven't pulled their inventory - the manager at my local store (one of the largest "Flagship" stores in the country) wasn't even aware of the problem with the Rocna... Probably safe to assume they won't be in the 2012 catalog, however...


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

I contacted West Marine as I have a 33 lb China model. They have not had any anchors of any size returned because of bent shanks flukes or other failures. Only because of losing some galvanizing at the tips or undamaged anchors returned just because of "concerns" they don't seem to be too worried about failures.


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## SJ34 (Jul 30, 2008)

Maine Sail said:


> China was NEVER the issue. It was the MANAGEMENT who made the decision to cut the quality of the steel used in the anchors, not the Chinese.
> 
> It was the MANAGEMENT who lied about having a RINA Certification years before they actually had one, not the Chinese.
> 
> ...


Maine

I have not been following the Rocna debacle that closely and wasn't really commenting on Hold Fast's shortcomings.

You're absolutely right, it is up to the new company to manage their contract manufacturer. I just personally don't see the practicality of enforcing such high mfg standards in the Wild Wild East.

When do you verify the manufacturing specs? How do you make sure the mfg didn't substitute an inferior grade material after the 1000th unit. Do you submit the 1001st unit for testing? If it comes back less that spec what do you do with the 500 units already sitting on retail shelves? 
Unless you are Dow or GE how do you force the MFG to take back the inferior product? Will they reimburse freight, customs fees etc etc? If somehow you prevail, how do you prevent them from welding some useless widget to them and selling the returns under the name RONCA to some internet retailer?

The marine community is much more demanding of quality (rightly so) than the average WalMart shopper and I don't think marine safety products are a place for current Chinese mfg practices.

Again, just my .02 but coming from painful experience I wish I could give back.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

LinekinBayCD said:


> I contacted West Marine as I have a 33 lb China model. They have not had any anchors of any size returned because of bent shanks flukes or other failures. Only because of losing some galvanizing at the tips or undamaged anchors returned just because of "concerns" they don't seem to be too worried about failures.


To me this is a pretty good indicator of how much hype has been blown up around this whole thing. The hysteria was over the top, as evidenced by the above, but the handling of that hysteria by the company was doubly bad.

It's been an interesting study of how PR (both good and bad) can be used very effectively on the internet. So much so that it can take down entire companies in a very short time.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

LinekinBayCD said:


> I contacted West Marine as I have a 33 lb China model. They have not had any anchors of any size returned because of bent shanks flukes or other failures. Only because of losing some galvanizing at the tips or undamaged anchors returned just because of "concerns" they don't seem to be too worried about failures.


That may be, but I can tell you that every WM store around here has removed the Rocna's from their shelves and some have replaced with Manson... (some don't and never had either)


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## marinextreme (Jan 15, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Wow. I guess this is a bit of vindication, eh Grant?


If you always tell the truth then you have nothing to worry about but if you play with mud then you end up getting dirty.

The truth is always the cleaner option.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Well, the new owners appear to be stepping up:

Sail-World.com : New Rocna owners allay quality fears, rebuild brand



> Heated discussion in the sailing world over whether some of the 'new generation' Rocna Anchors were defective has been countered by an ambit assurance by the new owners of the company. The new owners, Canada Metal Pacifics (CMP), have pledged to replace any 'defective' ground tackle ever produced anywhere in the world.
> 
> Rocna is one of a number of 'new generation' anchors which have revolutionised the anchor production industry and given many a cruising sailor a new ability to sleep well at anchor.
> 
> ...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Interesting that the SailWorld article shows a Stainless Rocna, all of which are still being manufactured in NZ. As far as I am aware all the problem anchors were galvanised not stainless. 

The article does at least mention that the West Marine refund offer was not as some people insist on calling it, a recall.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tdw said:


> Interesting that the SailWorld article shows a Stainless Rocna, all of which are still being manufactured in NZ. As far as I am aware all the problem anchors were galvanised not stainless.
> 
> The article does at least mention that the West Marine refund offer was not as some people insist on calling it, a recall.


Hi Andrews,

From what I have learned on a thread about stainless steel anchors it seems to me that they will be more fragile than the ones made with the galvanized steel that was not up to specification.

It is true that the steel was not up to specification but it has still a high grade steel anyway. I found the concerns about Rocna anchors greatly exaggerated.

It is shameful that they don't meet the specks they advertise but I bet that there are plenty anchors made with similar high grade steel.

Regards

Paulo


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Paulo,

Certainly I think it is true that stainless is not the best material for an anchor. We have one (Bruce) and I must say it looks good and is easy to keep clean but I would never buy one myself.

All Rocna stainless anchors are produced in New Zealand, none in China and it is only the galvanised anchors that were under suspicion. That is the point I was making.

Of course Rocna were stupid to make claims that were untrue and even more stupid in trying to hide from the truth but I agree with you that the claims were over the top. 

Cheers 

Andrew

ps - just started reading one of your countrymen's work. Jose Saramaga. Ordered them some weeks back from the US. First one arrived yesterday.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tdw said:


> ...
> 
> ps - just started reading one of your countrymen's work. Jose Saramaga. Ordered them some weeks back from the US. First one arrived yesterday.


Saramago I hope it is "Memorial do convento" Monastery's memorial? Sometimes he can be a pain in the ass

Regards

Paulo


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## GMFL (Jun 9, 2010)

T34C said:


> That may be, but I can tell you that every WM store around here has removed the Rocna's from their shelves and some have replaced with Manson... (some don't and never had either)


The West Marine around here, Southern CA has never carried the Rocna until a few weeks ago. They just added it to their inventory.

Seems to me this has been blown a little outa proportion.

It'd be nice to hear from those who've had a problem with with a China model.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

GMFL said:


> The West Marine around here, Southern CA has never carried the Rocna until a few weeks ago. They just added it to their inventory.
> 
> Seems to me this has been blown a little outa proportion.
> 
> It'd be nice to hear from those who've had a problem with with a China model.


It was blown out of proportion. Definitely. But hey, it was good for hits, right?

On the other hand, the Rocna guys really screwed the pooch on the handling of the situation from a PR perspective...well, that and they were allegedly "less than completely forthright" about the whole thing.

In any event, it's been one hell of a Chinese Train Wreck.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

PCP said:


> Saramago I hope it is "Memorial do convento" Monastery's memorial? Sometimes he can be a pain in the ass
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Most aging marxist atheists are .... a pain in the arse that is ... 

I wanted to read his last book "Cain" which was well reviewed but had to get from the US. Also picked up copies of The Gospel According to JC" and his History of Portugal at the same time.

I'll let you know what I think.

(end of hijack)


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## GMFL (Jun 9, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> In any event, it's been one hell of a Chinese Train Wreck.


Are the train wrecks anything like the Chinese fire drills? I've performed a few of those in my high school days...


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## marinextreme (Jan 15, 2009)

*stainless*



tdw said:


> Interesting that the SailWorld article shows a Stainless Rocna, all of which are still being manufactured in NZ. As far as I am aware all the problem anchors were galvanised not stainless.
> 
> The article does at least mention that the West Marine refund offer was not as some people insist on calling it, a recall.


Sorry but you are wrong about the country of manufacture of stainless rocna's.
They have been made in china since early 2009 and the shanks are all 316 not 2205 as promoted and sold.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

marinextreme said:


> Sorry but you are wrong about the country of manufacture of stainless rocna's.
> They have been made in china since early 2009 and the shanks are all 316 not 2205 as promoted and sold.


So they lied about the stainless anchors too? Wow I remember some Craig rants where he went off at the mere suggestion of 316SS... Gets more interesting every day...


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

General Properties
Alloy 2205 is a 22% Chromium, 3% Molybdenum, 5-6% Nickel nitrogen alloyed duplex stainless steel with high general, localized and stress corrosion resistance properties in addition to high strength and excellent impact toughness.

Alloy 2205 provides pitting and crevice corrosion resistance superior to 316L or 317L austenitic stainless steels in almost all corrosive media. It also has high corrosion and erosion fatigue properties as well as lower thermal expansion and higher thermal conductivity than austenitic.

The yield strength is about twice that of austenitic stainless steels. This allows a designer to save weight and makes the alloy more cost competitive when compared to 316L or 317L.

Alloy 2205 is particularly suitable for applications covering the -50°F/+600°F temperature range. Temperatures outside this range may be considered but need some restrictions, particularly for welded structures.

http://www.sandmeyersteel.com/2205.html

Pretty massive differance if true


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

tommays said:


> General Properties
> Alloy 2205 is a 22% Chromium, 3% Molybdenum, 5-6% Nickel nitrogen alloyed duplex stainless steel with high general, localized and stress corrosion resistance properties in addition to high strength and excellent impact toughness.
> 
> Alloy 2205 provides pitting and crevice corrosion resistance superior to 316L or 317L austenitic stainless steels in almost all corrosive media. It also has high corrosion and erosion fatigue properties as well as lower thermal expansion and higher thermal conductivity than austenitic.
> ...


Hmmm.......


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I wonder if the Chinese will sue the Holdfast? I would think the Chinese just built what they were told to build.


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## eggzackly (Oct 5, 2011)

Pamlicotraveler said:


> It seems like a Tartan-like maneuver. Only time will tell.


What is this Tartan-like maneuver that several of you refer to? I thought Tartan was a reputable company, making good boats. Have they been passing off sub standard products? Links?

My boat came with a 25kg rocna that was purchased in 2007. Although I don't have enourmous anchoring experience with other anchors of similar size, I will say how thrilled I've been with it's preformance. I've felt secure, even while watching other boats dragging near by. Certainly scope and technique were part of the equation but the Rocna has been confidence inspiring.

We were just in Formentera in some of the clearest, bluest water I've seen. It was not much of an anchoring challenge when you had a sandy bottom. But it was a pleasure to put on the mask and see that the anchor had turned and set in about half of it's length. i think it's a great design, so lets hope the new owners get it together!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

eggzackly said:


> What is this Tartan-like maneuver that several of you refer to? I thought Tartan was a reputable company, making good boats. Have they been passing off sub standard products? Links?
> 
> My boat came with a 25kg rocna that was purchased in 2007. Although I don't have enourmous anchoring experience with other anchors of similar size, I will say how thrilled I've been with it's preformance. I've felt secure, even while watching other boats dragging near by. Certainly scope and technique were part of the equation but the Rocna has been confidence inspiring.
> 
> We were just in Formentera in some of the clearest, bluest water I've seen. It was not much of an anchoring challenge when you had a sandy bottom. But it was a pleasure to put on the mask and see that the anchor had turned and set in about half of it's length. i think it's a great design, so lets hope the new owners get it together!


Here you go...this is probably the best place to find the information about the whole Tartan affair:

What Tartan and C&C Don't Want You to Know - Boating, Sailing and Cruising Forum: For Cruisers - BY Cruisers

It was a huge dustup here that was _seriously_ overblown by a few dudes.

Here's a related thread on this forum:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...ild-quality-ericson-pearson-sabre-tartan.html

(PS - Don't pay attention to all the banned users on that site. Ahhh, good times.)


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

marinextreme said:


> Sorry but you are wrong about the country of manufacture of stainless rocna's.
> They have been made in china since early 2009 and the shanks are all 316 not 2205 as promoted and sold.


Don't be sorry. If I am wrong I would rather be corrected than stay in blissful ignorance.

Otoh ... where can I see the proof I am wrong ?


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

eggzackly said:


> What is this Tartan-like maneuver that several of you refer to? I thought Tartan was a reputable company, making good boats. Have they been passing off sub standard products? Links?


Tartan has, over the last several years, done a number of "asset only" sales of the company to get rid of liability, debts from law suits, and warranty issues concerning several defective boats. A bit of a shell game. This site was threatened with a law suit for a thread discussing these issues. When the owners of the site caved in and deleted the thread, many users left and started another site to continue to discuss the issues.
Tartan and C&C Yachts- Problems, Court Cases, Warranty Issues and Free Speech
That's the short version...


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## Architeuthis (Mar 3, 2008)

Well here is my buck fifty and change. 

I've never had faith in anchoring. Decades ago when first introduced to sailing I questioned the whole concept. I would look down into the inky depths and ask my dad, "How do we know we won't drag?" his answer was basically, "We don't, it takes faith." 

I'm not big on faith. A buddy of mine, yes, he lives by faith, and has always pointed to my faith as weak (well he was a priest). My faith has to be backed by some understanding, testing, evidence, and experience. I envy those with faith as they sleep well at night. 

It has been many years since my Dad took me sailing so I could spent the nights in the cockpit on anchor watch. Even today I still get up if it is rough but only to monitor performance of the system. If the seabed has even half decent holding I know I'm not going to be dragging as I have done so often with Bruces, CQR's, Danforths and others because I use a Rocna! I've put it up against my other anchors (I used to have a collection, carried 4 different types) and found it worthy of my faith. 

IMO Rocna is, er was, hands down the best anchor for our little boats. Which made the decision of which anchor to buy for my new to me larger boat an easy one. 

Until I started researching the purchase a few months ago. Since then I've been following the story and like the train wreck it is and can't look away. 

I do not agree with anyone who says this has been overblown. If anything it has been significantly understated, posts filled with undeserved guarded comments and pulled punches just like this post actually. 

Look at what has occurred. A great brand, a great design and reputation, cashed in for short term gain. Regardless of who made the decision to do so we do know how it was handled, terribly. 

We are told it was a minor problem that got out of control, poor spin management, just marketing incompetence. But the level of incompetence we are being asked to believe strains credibility beyond that which even the faithful should accept. 

The sale to new owners (and you were wondering if I would post on topic, well here it is) The sale to new owners is not salvation needed in my opinion. 

The extent of the damage is being downplayed by the new owners. Apparently trying to make it look like they got a good deal on a great product, rather than the project company it really is. 

They have allowed conflicting statements about their plans. On one hand they say they will transfer manufacturing to Canada, and on the other hand they are continuing along the path Rocna was using but with improvements. 

It is clear they are not going to shut down Rocna as we know it and start a new product line of the highest quality based on a great design. Instead they are going to max profits, they will rebuild the reputation using an aggressive marketing campaign and make as few changes as possible, keeping production costs low and profits high. Great for investors, buying opportunity even, not so good for those few that demand the highest standards with no compromises. 

The vast majority of future purchasers will be be happy, and no doubt Rocna will once again be able to offer salvation to the many new and old faithful but not for me. 

I am buying a newer larger anchor but it will not be a Rocna. I'm going to look to Manson with their silly rock slot, great design and much more reasonable price. 

To sell me on another Rocna anytime soon I will require the anchors to have serial numbers, country of origin and country of manufacture stamped into the higher strength than any other anchor steel shank. Even then I would require a certificate of compliance with details on material used and tests performed. 

For those still buying Rocna, well it is good to have faith. 

To those to whom I've recommend Rocna and I know some who may have purchased a Rubber Rocna, all I can say is sorry about that, they pulled the old bait and switch on us and it appears got away with it.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Architeuthis said:


> I do not agree with anyone who says this has been overblown. If anything it has been significantly understated, posts filled with undeserved guarded comments and pulled punches just like this post actually.


I'm one of those who made this statement. And I definitely DO believe that this all _has_ been overblown by some...for less than pure reasons.

I won't for one minute discount the fact that this company completely blew it in many, many ways. That's obvious. It's clear that they had people publicly speaking for their brand that harmed it considerably. And it's clear that they pushed information that was patently untrue in certain circumstances when tested. And it's clear they reacted very poorly to these revelations instead of immediately owning them with unquestionable integrity and transparency.

These are the "non-overblowns" in my book.

On the other hand, I've seen in various places a premium placed on gleefully bringing down a company these posters didn't like for various reasons - regardless of a lack of actual facts...just because they have access to a public means of doing so...a forum. This is extremely dangerous and is "faith" of a more sinister sort.

When people start taking what little is _ actually known_ (i.e. - what there is actual _evidence_ for) and publicly hypothesizing endless scenarios of true negligence or mal-intent on the part of this company...that's when it becomes "overblown" and moves into libel/defamation land. There are some that seem to like this kind of thing.

Until all the facts are known, _really known_, punches _should_ be pulled and statements _should_ be guarded. Otherwise, as a general rule, you could either needlessly ruin people who are not as guilty as you think they are, or you could end up in court.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Architeuthis said:


> Well here is my buck fifty and change.
> 
> I've never had faith in anchoring. Decades ago when first introduced to sailing I questioned the whole concept. I would look down into the inky depths and ask my dad, "How do we know we won't drag?" his answer was basically, "We don't, it takes faith."
> 
> ,,,.


You don't have to have faith. Put the anchor down, set it, put engine in reverse at full power and if the anchor stays put that means you are not going to drag with less than 20K of wind. If it blows stronger and if you are not a believer (like me), organize an anchor watch.

If your crew is like mine you will find out they are all believers and that means you are going to sleep on the cockpit and from time to time you will have a look to see if the boat is still in the same spot. Don't worry, you will get used to it

Regards

Paulo


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## Architeuthis (Mar 3, 2008)

PCP said:


> You don't have to have faith. Put the anchor down, set it, put engine in reverse at full power and if the anchor stays put that means you are not going to drag with less than 20K of wind.


As long as the wind, tide or other conditions change you will not drag. I have very little experience in areas were conditions are not constantly changing. Which is why I really like anchors that reset every time or can hold from any angle.


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## Architeuthis (Mar 3, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> I'm one of those who made this statement. And I definitely DO believe that this all _has_ been overblown by some...for less than pure reasons.
> 
> I won't for one minute discount the fact that this company completely blew it in many, many ways. That's obvious. It's clear that they had people publicly speaking for their brand that harmed it considerably. And it's clear that they pushed information that was patently untrue in certain circumstances when tested. And it's clear they reacted very poorly to these revelations instead of immediately owning them with unquestionable integrity and transparency.
> 
> These are the "non-overblowns" in my book.


Since I was only referring to their actions after they knew there was a problem we are in agreement. These facts are known, punches should not be pulled and people, companies, and brands should be ruined.

But I doubt they will. The design is good enough that cheaper material will meet the minimum requirements of most of the buyers and in a short time this will be forgotten history just like......well you know that company who...


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