# Used boat prices right now ...



## Dreadpiratkevin (Jan 23, 2021)

What’s your impression of the used boat market right now in your area? We’re currently in the process of buying a new (to us) boat and in researching it I’ve read conflicting things about the market, one article says that everyone is buying boats due to COVID and inventory is very low while prices are high, another says prices are down due to Covid. Wondering what you are seeing?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I've heard it is the former (seller's market), so prices are higher, but I'm not actively shopping. As always, location and type of boat is probably a stronger driver of price.


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## skills4lou (Aug 23, 2018)

I'm actively shopping, and prices around me (MT) are up. I guess that's why I'm still shopping.

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## Dreadpiratkevin (Jan 23, 2021)

I’m in NY and I haven’t been looking long enough to know how prices have changed, but it does seem like many boats have been on the market for a while. Of course January in NY is not exactly prime sailing season.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I was just talking to my broker yesterday, and he was telling me used boat inventory is very low and prices are up. There is particular demand for 10-15year old boats. His reasoning is that there were a lot less boats built and sold following the 2008 crash, so there are less boats from that era available to begin with. He seemed confident if we sold our boat today we could probably get more than we paid for it 2 years ago and it would sell fast.



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## p1l0t (Jul 22, 2020)

SchockT said:


> I was just talking to my broker yesterday, and he was telling me used boat inventory is very low and prices are up. There is particular demand for 10-15year old boats. His reasoning is that there were a lot less boats built and sold following the 2008 crash, so there are less boats from that era available to begin with. He seemed confident if we sold our boat today we could probably get more than we paid for it 2 years ago and it would sell fast.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981W using Tapatalk


It's like trying to buy an airplane from 1985..

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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Hard to say, in the Northeast, in the winter. This past season, the couple of brokers I know said it was their all time record setting season for sales. Volume and price. Still, I know some boats that didn't sell. There are lots of variables out there. I personally believe the environment has provoked some sellers to see if they can set a new high on the market. Some of them may not sell at all, unless they can get a stupid price.

My guess is that prices will mostly hold up this coming season, but those that are trying to set new highs will be frustrated. We'll see. With vaccination rollout going sluggishly, the summer may still be filled with social distance restrictions, which seemed to have driven a lot of demand. Boating is naturally socially distanced.


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## The Big Cat (Jul 1, 2020)

The inventory is very thin.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

Here, prices are higher, and supply is scarce. I think covid restrictions will be pretty strict this year. The vaccine apparently doesn't prevent contagions.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

My bet is that prices will drop in 2022 once we get this pandemic under control and people start to return to how we recreated before. This will leave a lot of people with boats (and RVs and recreational properties) that they no longer want.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

FYI, my marina was closed last week due to provincial covid regs. We can't even drive in to check in our boats. I'm sort of thinking it may not open at all this year.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Ninefingers said:


> FYI, my marina was closed last week due to provincial covid regs. We can't even drive in to check in our boats. I'm sort of thinking it may not open at all this year.


I haven't been able to check on my boat in over a year now. It's in Newfoundland, and I am not allowed in.


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## sdjim (Oct 14, 2013)

Based on several years of watching CraigsList for San Diego and LA/Orange County, it seems to me that at the moment pickings are thin and prices are high. Purely a subjective impression.

J/SD


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

MikeOReilly said:


> I haven't been able to check on my boat in over a year now. It's in Newfoundland, and I am not allowed in.


 Brutal. Is it the marina that is shut down or the province?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Ninefingers said:


> Brutal. Is it the marina that is shut down or the province?


The whole province. Unfortunately the normally overly-friendly Newfoundlanders have told us come-from-aways to stay away. So I can't even step foot in the province.


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## Dreadpiratkevin (Jan 23, 2021)

Sounds like it’s pretty regional. Here in far northern NY you have to be pretty hard core to tromp through several feet of snow and crawl under winter covers to look at boats right now so anxious sellers may take less to avoid spring storage fees. Warmer weather may change that if it looks like lockdowns may continue into the summer. That’s why I’m shopping now, well that and I need something to keep me sane over the endless winters up here. 

On the other hand we’d normally be able to look at boats from Toronto to Kingston ON on the Canadian side without worry of transportation costs, but with the border closed we’re limited to only US boats which effectively cuts the market in half. 


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## gdr (Aug 18, 2014)

I've been wondering about this issue as well. We are planning to buy a bigger / newer / and hopefully better boat sometime this year, but maybe we should wait a year if pricing is out-of-line. How can you tell if pricing is consistent with norms? I haven't been watching the prices of boats very carefully, and I have no idea if they are up or down in New England.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

I have been involved riding shotgun on 7 different boat deals in the past 2 years. My sense is that since Covid, it is very hard to find a good boat in good shape. At this point it seems like the majority of those 'clean boats' are largely off the market (except for those being sold as folks move up). I have watched as boats that I have tracked that have languished on the market for years (and in one case for almost 2 decades) have sold during this time. The result is that boats that you almost could not give away in years past have been sold in these times. The asking prices on boats have crept up and the nicer boats can even end up in bidding wars that end up above the asking price.

But at the bottom of the market, mostly the old CCA and IOR race boats of the 'rode hard and put away wet' condition, there are boats that are literally being given away. These boats typically have negative values, meaning that even if free, no matter much or how little you put in them, the boat will always be worth less than you paid for it.

By the same token another friend is buying a boat that was someone's uncompleted dream. It is one of the better designs from its era and it is loaded with all kinds of uninstalled cruising gear worth many times what the boat will ever be worth. But it looks like hell, and someone with have to see through the mess, know the virtues of this relatively rare model, and be willing to put this humpy dumpty back together again. The result is that the boat is selling for half of what an already put together and less well equipped version would sell for, If the buyer is capable of doing the work themselves, and diligent about doing a proper job, then this is a bargain, even after the sweat equity is factored in. But these barn specials are rare and take patience and knowledge to ferret out, and to be in a position to find one takes a whole lot of frog kissing to find the prince.

Jeff


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## Dreadpiratkevin (Jan 23, 2021)

gdr said:


> I've been wondering about this issue as well. We are planning to buy a bigger / newer / and hopefully better boat sometime this year, but maybe we should wait a year if pricing is out-of-line. How can you tell if pricing is consistent with norms? I haven't been watching the prices of boats very carefully, and I have no idea if they are up or down in New England.


That's the question. I haven't been looking for long so can't tell if prices are out of line. There are no 'bluebook' prices for used boats as far as I know. I've been taking each boat in our short list and comparing prices nationally with others of the same make/year/model, but there's still so much variation in condition and equipment that it's hard to compare, plus I'm only looking at asking price, not actual sale price.

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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Dreadpiratkevin said:


> Sounds like it's pretty regional. Here in far northern NY you have to be pretty hard core to tromp through several feet of snow and crawl under winter covers to look at boats right now so anxious sellers may take less to avoid spring storage fees. Warmer weather may change that if it looks like lockdowns may continue into the summer. That's why I'm shopping now, well that and I need something to keep me sane over the endless winters up here.
> 
> On the other hand we'd normally be able to look at boats from Toronto to Kingston ON on the Canadian side without worry of transportation costs, but with the border closed we're limited to only US boats which effectively cuts the market in half.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


With all due respect, most boat owners have already paid the winter storage costs so they have nothing to lose waiting until spring. The time that "anxious sellers may take less to avoid storage fees" passed months ago.

Jeff


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

gdr said:


> maybe we should wait a year if pricing is out-of-line. How can you tell if pricing is consistent with norms?


It's just gambling to try to time any market. If you would like a different boat, how much is a year of your life worth and how much do you think the prices will change on your target boat? I'd only be careful that I wasn't wasting time on a boat where the owner is thinking "I'll sell only if someone will overpay me in this hot market". Otherwise, values are up a bit and I would not be certain they'll retreat much.


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## Dreadpiratkevin (Jan 23, 2021)

Jeff_H said:


> With all due respect, most boat owners have already paid the winter storage costs so they have nothing to lose waiting until spring. The time that "anxious sellers may take less to avoid storage fees" passed months ago.
> 
> Jeff


True, for the most part, assuming they were able to pay storage fees in the fall. Some boats may be for sale for this very reason. Certainly Oct/Nov is a better time to boat shop, but every seller is different with their own goals and timeline and not everyone will be able to wait till spring when more buyers will be in the market.

Plus, I finally have the time and money to buy the boat I want, and I'm looking on the bright side dammit! Don't harsh my chill 

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## p1l0t (Jul 22, 2020)

I have a 15ft WWP I am willing to let go for $30k 

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## Dreadpiratkevin (Jan 23, 2021)

p1l0t said:


> I have a 15ft WWP I am willing to let go for $30k
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Wow, prices really have gone up!

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## p1l0t (Jul 22, 2020)

Dreadpiratkevin said:


> Wow, prices really have gone up!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


About 5-10x it seems. I really do love her though... but then again there is a price for everything.

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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

MikeOReilly said:


> I haven't been able to check on my boat in over a year now. It's in Newfoundland, and I am not allowed in.


Mike,

Do you follow Bib Flynn on Facebook?

He periodically takes pictures of boats in the yard and posts them. So I know my tarp is holding ip but my bow light blew off and is hanging down.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

hpeer said:


> Mike,
> 
> Do you follow Bib Flynn on Facebook?
> 
> He periodically takes pictures of boats in the yard and posts them. So I know my tarp is holding ip but my bow light blew off and is hanging down.


Unfortunately no... I don't do FB at all. Too creepy for my liking.

I've had Corner Brook friends check on the boat a couple of times, although not in the last few months. So far, so good. I was also in contact with the yard manager (Brian) a few times, and had him go on board to check things out. All was good, but this was over the summer.

If I can't get there this season I'm going to have to ask (hire?) someone to do a thorough check of things.


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## SteveKras (Mar 23, 2014)

I just attended the Toronto boat show this past weekend (virtually). The broker in a seminar I attended said that he is seeing a sellers market for boats 15-25 years old. It's a buyers market for anything older than that. Personally I have been watching listings in the 4 of Great Lakes (excluding Ontario) in the $20k to $40k range since last fall. It seems like all the boats that show well in the listings are getting bought up and there haven't been many new listings since the boats got put away for winter.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Dreadpiratkevin said:


> True, for the most part, assuming they were able to pay storage fees in the fall. Some boats may be for sale for this very reason. Certainly Oct/Nov is a better time to boat shop, but every seller is different with their own goals and timeline and not everyone will be able to wait till spring when more buyers will be in the market.
> 
> Plus, I finally have the time and money to buy the boat I want, and I'm looking on the bright side dammit! Don't harsh my chill
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am sorry to harsh your chill. For a lot of reasons I have been involved in a bunch of boat deals lately and I am just reporting what I have seen.

I will say that there are still 'barn deals' out there, but they are becoming rarer. Just the other day, I talked with someone who had been given a perfectly good (really filthy) Kenner Kittiwake on a perfectly good (really filthy) trailer, just for getting it out of the man's yard.

But in reality, if you are patient, bet the bushes, and don't mind sweat equity those deals are out there. But given the current market conditions, its not likely that good deal on a good boat will simply pop up, no matter what time of year.

On the bright side, I could be 100% wrong and for your sake I hope I am. 

Jeff


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## fletcher01 (Feb 23, 2019)

My budget is for older boats (<85 or so), but I sold an older powerboat in the water last summer very quickly for a fair price for its condition. The marina owner said people were coming in and buying anything he had for sale.
I then bought a 31' sailboat for 1/2 its appraised value. It had been sitting for 3 years as part of an estate. The broker said any lookers were put off by the fact that it wasn't water-ready and the motor was unproven. We took a chance and put the work in, and it's a beautiful boat.
I spoke to someone last fall who said he had been trying to sell his race-ready '78 34 foot racer-cruiser (newer high tech sails, etc.) for about 3 years and finally "gave it away" for $6500.

IMHO, demand and prices were up because there's alot of folks getting into boating just because they can't travel as they usually do. Give it another year and we'll probably see alot of those folks getting out once they have vacation options again (and find out what kind of a commitment boating is). Personally, I hope so. There were alot of boaters out there last summer that seemed completely ignorant to the rules of the road and common courtesy.


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## Dreadpiratkevin (Jan 23, 2021)

Jeff_H said:


> I am sorry to harsh your chill. For a lot of reasons I have been involved in a bunch of boat deals lately and I am just reporting what I have seen.
> 
> I will say that there are still 'barn deals' out there, but they are becoming rarer. Just the other day, I talked with someone who had been given a perfectly good (really filthy) Kenner Kittiwake on a perfectly good (really filthy) trailer, just for getting it out of the man's yard.
> 
> ...


No problem. For most people (myself included) you buy the boat (or anything else) when desire, ability and opportunity intersect. Convincing yourself it was the 'right time' is just post hoc rationalization.

I've been around long enough to know that waiting for the deal of a lifetime often carries a high opportunity cost and just taking a good deal on something that will give you most of what you want is often a wiser course.

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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

MikeOReilly said:


> Unfortunately no... I don't do FB at all. Too creepy for my liking.
> 
> I've had Corner Brook friends check on the boat a couple of times, although not in the last few months. So far, so good. I was also in contact with the yard manager (Brian) a few times, and had him go on board to check things out. All was good, but this was over the summer.
> 
> If I can't get there this season I'm going to have to ask (hire?) someone to do a thorough check of things.


Jeez, we can't even do that. If something happens to our boats in the marina, we can't do a thing about it. Tarp blows off - too bad.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Ninefingers said:


> Jeez, we can't even do that. If something happens to our boats in the marina, we can't do a thing about it. Tarp blows off - too bad.


I hear ya. The good news in Newfoundland is that most things are open and operating pretty much as normal. They have the standard Covid protocols, but things are accessible -- at least they are for Newfoundlanders. For people like me, no such luck.


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

sdjim said:


> Based on several years of watching CraigsList for San Diego and LA/Orange County, it seems to me that at the moment pickings are thin and prices are high. Purely a subjective impression.
> 
> J/SD


From my experience, I sold my old boat (1968 Cal 2-30) for about what I had hoped for, and bought my new one (2008 Jeanneau 39i) for what was, according to the surveyor, a very fair deal. Did both deals within two weeks of each other. I went through a broker and when I asked him whether any powerboats were available, he laughed. I think the inventory/price fluctuation thing is relative to stinkpotters only. For sailboats in Socal, it's trending toward sellers market, but not ridiculously so.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> My bet is that prices will drop in 2022 once we get this pandemic under control and people start to return to how we recreated before. This will leave a lot of people with boats (and RVs and recreational properties) that they no longer want.


I see this as a more longterm..real shift
Not a casual short term...throw it out..when done thing


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

RegisteredUser said:


> I see this as a more longterm..real shift
> Not a casual short term...throw it out..when done thing


Think there are good odds.

Coincidentally, I just received the newsletter from a Nantucket realtor I signed up for years back. Island properties have been known to soar and dive in boom and bust economies. I've known a few to ride them up and make good money, while renting the property to carry it. I never did it.

Reportedly, the island saw between 30% and 40% increases in the both the number and value of property sales in 2020. Wow. Unlike the past booms, where people were buying vacation properties, this time people moved to the island for the entire season and worked remotely. I was there this summer and our Uber driver said the typical rental properties were all occupied by the owners. Some are saying they are never going back. Depending on what business people are in, I believe many will take advantage of a new work/life balance and, if not remote full time, will work longer weeks or stretches of time, from their island homes. Friends with a house on the beach out there, spent most of the summer working remotely. Before anyone makes a suspicious conclusion, this guy is a workaholic, so was definitely working.

In our case, that's our plan for the boat. My wife and I worked remotely for a few straight weeks last summer, after our vacation ended. When 5pm came along, it was so nice to just climb up into the cockpit. Both of our phones were hot spots and we also had a dedicated hot spot, so internet was fully available at anchor. I loved it and I don't want to go back. It was a bit of a hassle in the rain, which is noisy down below and harder to be on the phone. It didn't rain much.

If values of real estate and boats do drop, I'm not sure that means they'll all be available at those prices either. When people believe they have lost that kind of money, they are known to defer selling.


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## Dreadpiratkevin (Jan 23, 2021)

rbrasi said:


> From my experience, I sold my old boat (1968 Cal 2-30) for about what I had hoped for, and bought my new one (2008 Jeanneau 39i) for what was, according to the surveyor, a very fair deal. Did both deals within two weeks of each other. I went through a broker and when I asked him whether any powerboats were available, he laughed. I think the inventory/price fluctuation thing is relative to stinkpotters only. For sailboats in Socal, it's trending toward sellers market, but not ridiculously so.


Makes sense. I'd guess that when most non-boaters think 'hey, let's buy a boat' they think power boats. Most non sailers think sailing is super complicated and hard to learn.

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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Dreadpiratkevin said:


> Most non sailers think sailing is super complicated and hard to learn.


That's true, but I think the distinction is also what they want to be on the water doing. If it's just getting to the next port, swimming, water skiing, etc, a powerboat gets the job done with less to know. Sailing has to be an activity itself that one is interested in. Perhaps a journey vs destination thing, but it's not all that neatly defined.

However, I do know more than one "sailor" that rarely sails. Often, they don't have enough helpful crew, so they just motor where they are going to do all the stuff the other power boaters are doing too. In these cases, I know the dream of sailing away to distant lands is alive, but they're never actually going to do it. They just can't let go of the sailboat. Trawlers are usually next.


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## p1l0t (Jul 22, 2020)

There are deals/steals in a bull market, and rip-offs/scams in a bear market. It just depends on how much time you want to spend looking. Always do your homework.

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## skills4lou (Aug 23, 2018)

After a few weeks of actively looking, I'll modify my earlier statement a bit: It seems that certain categories/makes are selling for peanuts. If I was in the market for a 25-30' boat that doesn't need to be trailerable then I would have plenty of options. However, MY requirements include trailerable (and the requisite trailer). That particular niche seems to be more active and prices seem to reflect that. Probably due to reasons already stated in this thread, is my guess.


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## Dreadpiratkevin (Jan 23, 2021)

skills4lou said:


> After a few weeks of actively looking, I'll modify my earlier statement a bit: It seems that certain categories/makes are selling for peanuts. If I was in the market for a 25-30' boat that doesn't need to be trailerable then I would have plenty of options. However, MY requirements include trailerable (and the requisite trailer). That particular niche seems to be more active and prices seem to reflect that. Probably due to reasons already stated in this thread, is my guess.


We found that larger trailer sailers were hard to find back a few years when we were looking for one. People seem to let them sit for years before deciding to sell because they're not paying yard fees, by which time the trailer is shot. For us not having to have a tow vehicle almost made up for the cost of a 'big' boat on a mooring. I miss the flexibility of going to different cruising grounds, and also the not paying if your not using thing. But being able to step aboard, fire the motor and go has its charms as well. Also being limited to Lake Ontario and the 1000 islands is not too shabby.

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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Dreadpiratkevin said:


> We found that larger trailer sailers were hard to find back a few years when we were looking for one. People seem to let them sit for years before deciding to sell because they're not paying yard fees, by which time the trailer is shot. For us not having to have a tow vehicle almost made up for the cost of a 'big' boat on a mooring. I miss the flexibility of going to different cruising grounds, and also the not paying if your not using thing. But being able to step aboard, fire the motor and go has its charms as well. Also being limited to Lake Ontario and the 1000 islands is not too shabby.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Definitely having the boat in the water ready to go means you are going to use it more, even if it is just for a 2 hour evening sail after work.

I dry sailed my first boat when I first got it. It was in a yard rigged and ready, I just had to wheel it over to the crane, rig it up and drop it in, and even then it was too much hassle for just a short sail. I used it much more frequently once I got a slip in the club.

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## fletcher01 (Feb 23, 2019)

I agree that when storage is free, people tend to hang on to their boats, often til they are deteriorated past usefulness. I drive by a Hunter - appears to be either a 240 or 260 - stored on its trailer at the end of a driveway under low hanging trees, and it's slowly getting a coating of black tree sap and mildew. Back in my trailer sailing days I would've killed to own one. I'm tempted to stop by and see if they'd take short money just to clear it from their driveway.


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## Dreadpiratkevin (Jan 23, 2021)

fletcher01 said:


> I agree that when storage is free, people tend to hang on to their boats, often til they are deteriorated past usefulness. I drive by a Hunter - appears to be either a 240 or 260 - stored on its trailer at the end of a driveway under low hanging trees, and it's slowly getting a coating of black tree sap and mildew. Back in my trailer sailing days I would've killed to own one. I'm tempted to stop by and see if they'd take short money just to clear it from their driveway.


Oh they've got big plans for that boat, you know, someday! Sometimes I wonder what percentage of boats in this country ever see any water other then rain. Seems like less than half the sail boats at our marina get launched annually. Much higher for power boats.

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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Dreadpiratkevin said:


> Oh they've got big plans for that boat, you know, someday! Sometimes I wonder what percentage of boats in this country ever see any water other then rain. Seems like less than half the sail boats at our marina get launched annually. Much higher for power boats.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I see that phenomenon even with boats that are in a marina. There were boats in our club that weren't getting used for years at a time. They had so much growth on their bottoms that they wouldn't sail even if they wanted to. We finally had to institute a "use it or lose it" policy to force the derelicts out and free the space for people who actually use their boats.

I even see derelict boats moored in marinas downtown where mooreage can cost as much as $10/ft per month! They just aren't willing to let go of the dream, so they just keep paying the fees!

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## fletcher01 (Feb 23, 2019)

SchockT said:


> Definitely having the boat in the water ready to go means you are going to use it more, even if it is just for a 2 hour evening sail after work.
> 
> I dry sailed my first boat when I first got it. It was in a yard rigged and ready, I just had to wheel it over to the crane, rig it up and drop it in, and even then it was too much hassle for just a short sail. I used it much more frequently once I got a slip in the club.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981W using Tapatalk


I was a dedicated trailer-sailor for about 10 years. I engineered systems to allow me to go from my driveway (15 minutes away) to fairway in 45 minutes or so, depending on ramp traffic. I would sail at least one afternoon a week during the summer plus weekends. 
But that was when I was young and ambitious. Now I'm old and tired and some weekday evenings just want to go down to the boat for dinner and a glass of wine, and leave the cruising for the weekends.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

fletcher01 said:


> I was a dedicated trailer-sailor for about 10 years. I engineered systems to allow me to go from my driveway (15 minutes away) to fairway in 45 minutes or so, depending on ramp traffic. I would sail at least one afternoon a week during the summer plus weekends.
> But that was when I was young and ambitious. Now I'm old and tired and some weekday evenings just want to go down to the boat for dinner and a glass of wine, and leave the cruising for the weekends.


In the summer we often go down to the boat for cocktails and a swim. Sometimes we even spend the night on the boat just because. It is nice to have a little bit of waterfront to retreat to, especially in these covid times.

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## Dreadpiratkevin (Jan 23, 2021)

fletcher01 said:


> I was a dedicated trailer-sailor for about 10 years. I engineered systems to allow me to go from my driveway (15 minutes away) to fairway in 45 minutes or so, depending on ramp traffic. I would sail at least one afternoon a week during the summer plus weekends.
> But that was when I was young and ambitious. Now I'm old and tired and some weekday evenings just want to go down to the boat for dinner and a glass of wine, and leave the cruising for the weekends.


I'm right there with ya. The thought of hooking up the boat, dealing with ramp traffic, rigging her to sail- and then doing it all again in reverse! for anything less than half a day or more just got to be too exhausting. We're on a mooring now so it's still a bit more of a pain then I'd like to get to her but once there it's just wonderfully peaceful sitting on the water watching the harbor traffic go by. Plus I can drive my Mini Cooper to the boat if I want.

We had lots of great trailer sailing adventures over the years but I'm glad to have moved over to the lazy side.

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## skills4lou (Aug 23, 2018)

I'm about an hour and 20 minutes drive from the absolute nearest place to sail, and less than 2 hours from a couple different options. Those who live near the water definitely have better options. For me, the trailer is a must. And even at that I have put down a deposit on a slip for the summer season. Rigging Orbweaver from trailer mode to on the water is fairly quick, but it's still about 2 hrs from hitching up the trailer to hoisting the sail. And that's if there's no backup at the ramp. 
I'm hoping the slip pans out for us, that'll make the weekend or overnight getaway much more feasible.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SchockT said:


> I even see derelict boats moored in marinas downtown where mooreage can cost as much as $10/ft per month


Having just received our slip bill for 2021, it's $27/ft/mo! That's even giving consideration to our early start and late haul. If you shorten the season by our two extra months, the rate starts pushing $40. Getting crazy, but it's still a bargain compared to waterfront property around here, which as to be why it holds up. That and we keep making more people, but not more marinas. They are generally full around here, especially slips for boats 30ft+. No derelicts, but many appear to be rarely used. Virtually no one stays in year round. We get one or two that sink at their slip each year, oddly enough.


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## fletcher01 (Feb 23, 2019)

skills4lou said:


> I'm about an hour and 20 minutes drive from the absolute nearest place to sail, and less than 2 hours from a couple different options. Those who live near the water definitely have better options. For me, the trailer is a must. And even at that I have put down a deposit on a slip for the summer season. Rigging Orbweaver from trailer mode to on the water is fairly quick, but it's still about 2 hrs from hitching up the trailer to hoisting the sail. And that's if there's no backup at the ramp.
> I'm hoping the slip pans out for us, that'll make the weekend or overnight getaway much more feasible.


Of course the downside of keeping a boat on the water is the care and concern for it. When I trailered, I always knew the boat was secure sitting on its trailer in the driveway, and it was always accessible to work on, even for an hour before dinner. Keeping a bigger boat at a slip means I'm always worrying about leaks, line chafe, storms, security, etc. It take some getting used to, and boating can't be approached quite as casually as if the boat were on a trailer in the yard.


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## Dreadpiratkevin (Jan 23, 2021)

fletcher01 said:


> Of course the downside of keeping a boat on the water is the care and concern for it. When I trailered, I always knew the boat was secure sitting on its trailer in the driveway, and it was always accessible to work on, even for an hour before dinner. Keeping a bigger boat at a slip means I'm always worrying about leaks, line chafe, storms, security, etc. It take some getting used to, and boating can't be approached quite as casually as if the boat were on a trailer in the yard.


Not an insignificant point. We're not even at a dock but on a mooring in the middle of the harbor. And that's an hour away from us! I've had more then a few sleepless nights listening to the wind blow and picturing the boat sitting on the rocks, or worse, careening into a much more expensive boat. It is always a bit of a relief when we haul out in the fall.

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## p1l0t (Jul 22, 2020)

Yeah I only live 45 minutes away but I still keep my super trailerable WWP on a mooring. It's just so much more convenient. I have the day off I want to be cruising or racing not playing with the crane. Then again I found a yacht club that's been around since the 1800s so the rates are about as cheap as they get for around here. I do sleep with one eye open sometimes though sometimes.

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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

The one good thing about the current pandemic restrictions for me is I'm not paying for an annual slip. I can't even get to my boat, so it is staying on the hard. So I'm saving some money.

I'd much rather be able to go cruising though 😕


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

fletcher01 said:


> Of course the downside of keeping a boat on the water is the care and concern for it. When I trailered, I always knew the boat was secure sitting on its trailer in the driveway, and it was always accessible to work on, even for an hour before dinner. Keeping a bigger boat at a slip means I'm always worrying about leaks, line chafe, storms, security, etc. It take some getting used to, and boating can't be approached quite as casually as if the boat were on a trailer in the yard.





Dreadpiratkevin said:


> Not an insignificant point. We're not even at a dock but on a mooring in the middle of the harbor. And that's an hour away from us! I've had more then a few sleepless nights listening to the wind blow and picturing the boat sitting on the rocks, or worse, careening into a much more expensive boat. It is always a bit of a relief when we haul out in the fall.


As they say, "That's what insurance is for."

And I'd love to pay only $10/ft/month!


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> Having just received our slip bill for 2021, it's $27/ft/mo! That's even giving consideration to our early start and late haul. If you shorten the season by our two extra months, the rate starts pushing $40. Getting crazy, but it's still a bargain compared to waterfront property around here, which as to be why it holds up. That and we keep making more people, but not more marinas. They are generally full around here, especially slips for boats 30ft+. No derelicts, but many appear to be rarely used. Virtually no one stays in year round. We get one or two that sink at their slip each year, oddly enough.


That is crazy! I'm not sure I could justify that kind of money for mooreage!

What do yacht clubs charge in your area?

My home yacht club is a little off the beaten track in terms of getting to the prime cruising grounds so it is a bit cheaper than other clubs, but it is also 5 min from my house. I believe I am paying around $5.50/ft. If I got a slip at the bigger club I belong to I think it is around $8/ft but 40 minute drive from my house.

I guess we've got it pretty good here!

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## p1l0t (Jul 22, 2020)

We're like $10/ft I guess but it's also one of the biggest safe water areas that exists so that's great. (My Fiancée likes the easy riding even L.I. sound is a bit much for her even in a 10kt wind LOL)

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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Certainly mooreage cost and availability are a dampening factor on boat sales. When I was selling my old boat I had a couple of buyers who were ready to pull the trigger but were unable to find mooreage. It makes it hard for people just getting into boating because they don't have seniority in a yacht club, and they don't already have mooreage. A boat that has assumable mooreage in a marina is a big selling point for entry level boaters.

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## 4arch (Jul 7, 2009)

Here on the Chesapeake, annual marina slip fees range from around $60-175 per foot. In the Annapolis area, it’s more like $120-275 per foot annually, with the lower end being pretty tough to find. Those prices usually include 12 months in-water, with a winter haul out being extra. Long-term rental moorings are almost unheard of around here. Overall, there’s not a shortage of slips, but the more desirable and better managed marinas do fill up quickly.

I agree with Schock that these prices can be a deterrent for new boaters or those with smaller boats. Even at a relatively inexpensive marina, you can exceed the value of a small boat in slip fees in just a few years and that can be a difficult concept for a lot of people to accept.

On the other, at the upper end of the price range (inclusive of winter haul out and insurance, because how many people are going to go to a $275/ft. marina and not haul out and not insure?) for a 35-40 foot boat you’re about even with a mortgage payment on a $300k property and you won’t find much worth living in $300k waterfront in these parts.


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## Dreadpiratkevin (Jan 23, 2021)

The deciding factor for us in moving up to a non-trailerable boat was getting a mooring in the municipal mooring field in Henderson harbor. It’s a grand total of $100 per year, and it’s yours until you give it up. We’d definitely be sailing a smaller boat if we had to pay dockage. Of course we also have to pay winter storage and haul out/put in at the local marina which runs about $25/ft/year, plus a small fee to keep our dink in the water. 


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

4arch said:


> Here on the Chesapeake, annual marina slip fees range from around $60-175 per foot. In the Annapolis area, it's more like $120-275 per foot annually,
> 
> On the other, at the upper end of the price range (inclusive of winter haul out and insurance, because how many people are going to go to a $275/ft. marina and not haul out and not insure?) for a 35-40 foot boat you're about even with a mortgage payment on a $300k property and you won't find much worth living in $300k waterfront in these parts.


I don't think that your math is right., Even at $275 per foot, the annual slip fee would be around 9,600 per year for a 35 footer. A mortgage payment on a $300,000 mortgage would be around $26,400. You can buy a very nice 34 footer and pay a year of dockage for that,

And while I suspect that there are marinas around Annapolis that get $275 per foot per year, there are also smaller marinas that are well under $100 per foot per year. I know that from looking for places for friends to stash boats and from researching what to charge for slips at my dock.

Jeff


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## harryws (Sep 4, 2001)

In Australia the multihull stock sold down in the first half of 2020 and people changes their lifestyle. Monos sold well but not as fast to the first time dreamers.
Prices have stayed high for newer vessels due to good chance of insurance which has had a very rocky period with many owners having their policies cancelled. Still a very difficult issue.
Older monos are selling but paused now as people look at their cruising options with our State boarders closed to other states making it difficult to plan a content cruise. Fiji, New Caledonia and New Zealand border closed. These will open later this year.


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## ssteakley (Oct 6, 2002)

Dreadpiratkevin said:


> What's your impression of the used boat market right now in your area? We're currently in the process of buying a new (to us) boat and in researching it I've read conflicting things about the market, one article says that everyone is buying boats due to COVID and inventory is very low while prices are high, another says prices are down due to Covid. Wondering what you are seeing?


A reliable Boat Value Guide that is used by brokers is Boat Values, Price Guides, Yachts for Sale & Charter - BUC.COM . It certainly provides a starting point and values are adjusted to regional markets. I have always used this guide to help me determine fair value along with a survey by a reputable surveyor.


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## ssteakley (Oct 6, 2002)

Dreadpiratkevin said:


> That's the question. I haven't been looking for long so can't tell if prices are out of line. There are no 'bluebook' prices for used boats as far as I know. I've been taking each boat in our short list and comparing prices nationally with others of the same make/year/model, but there's still so much variation in condition and equipment that it's hard to compare, plus I'm only looking at asking price, not actual sale price.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A reliable Boat Value Guide that is used by brokers is Boat Values, Price Guides, Yachts for Sale & Charter - BUC.COM . It certainly provides a starting point and values are adjusted to regional markets. I have always used this guide to help me determine fair value along with a survey by a reputable surveyor.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

This thread has been concentrated on USA boats. I think the situation starts to change when looking at boats in places such as Grenada and Trinidad. I have seen a few postings about folks selling boats they can no longer access.

Mike and I both have boats in Newfoundland we haven't seen in over a year with no end in sight. I wonder how boat prices are fairing in those out of the way places. I cant imagine selling that boat. Even in good times I would have to move it to sell for any decent price. Now? It would go for peanuts. At least storage is cheap. 

Internationally you MAY be able to leverage the current situation to find a deal, BETTING that travels restrictions will ease up and allow access. 
Not an easy bet.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

hpeer said:


> This thread has been concentrated on USA boats. I think the situation starts to change when looking at boats in places such as Grenada and Trinidad. I have seen a few postings about folks selling boats they can no longer access.
> 
> Mike and I both have boats in Newfoundland we haven't seen in over a year with no end in sight.
> Here you MAY be able to leverage the current situation to find a deal, BETTING that travelnrestrictions will ease up and allow access.
> Not an easy bet.


Hey wait, are you trying to sell my boat??  ... On second thought 

So, does anyone want to buy a solid, quality-built, ocean-capable cruising boat ?


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Tom and Clarissa are in the same boat, so to speak.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

hpeer said:


> Tom and Clarissa are in the same boat, so to speak.


And Mike & Jayne, and Mark who's also here in Ottawa. Probably a bunch more...


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

ssteakley said:


> A reliable Boat Value Guide that is used by brokers is Boat Values, Price Guides, Yachts for Sale & Charter - BUC.COM . It certainly provides a starting point and values are adjusted to regional markets. I have always used this guide to help me determine fair value along with a survey by a reputable surveyor.


Based on brokers that I have known, and in my own personal experience, I consider BUC values to be next to useless. The way that the BUC prices are reported only represents a small portion of the marketplace, are distorted by self-reporting, and have a look back period that is too long a period of time to provide even close to an accurate value. In volatile periods like this they tend to be woefully off as compared to normal periods when BUC Values come closer to reality. Buc Values are less far off on boats that were produced in extremely large numbers, but can and generally are way off on boats that are less common, which is actually the majority of the used boats that get sold in a year.

Jeff


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

MikeOReilly said:


> And Mike & Jayne, and Mark who's also here in Ottawa. Probably a bunch more...


Right, now that is just a tiny marina in Newfoundland. Can you imagine what Trinidad must be like? The yard operators are crying poverty because it is all shut down.

But I also wonder about Florida. My observation was that there were at least as many Canadian boats in Florida as US boats. Now they are stuck idle in Florida. How long do folks hold out?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

hpeer said:


> My observation was that there were at least as many Canadian boats in Florida as US boats.


A couple in our marina in RI too. Owners never put them in the water or visited this past year. I'm going to guess it will open up before the season is over this year. Hospitalization and death rates are coming down. If they continue to do so, as more vulnerable populations were prioritized for the vaccine, I think others will be allowed to co-mingle, while social distancing rules remain in effect. We'll see. Hopeful anyway.


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## Blue Claw (Feb 5, 2021)

Dreadpiratkevin said:


> That's the question. I haven't been looking for long so can't tell if prices are out of line. There are no 'bluebook' prices for used boats as far as I know. I've been taking each boat in our short list and comparing prices nationally with others of the same make/year/model, but there's still so much variation in condition and equipment that it's hard to compare, plus I'm only looking at asking price, not actual sale price.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actually you can use nada bluebook for boat values as well as car values


Dreadpiratkevin said:


> That's the question. I haven't been looking for long so can't tell if prices are out of line. There are no 'bluebook' prices for used boats as far as I know. I've been taking each boat in our short list and comparing prices nationally with others of the same make/year/model, but there's still so much variation in condition and equipment that it's hard to compare, plus I'm only looking at asking price, not actual sale price.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actually nada.com , the "bluebook" people give used boat values as well as cars.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Just some food for thought. In a marina with a lot of neglected sail boats. But there are 5 in a row who are attended to regularly.

1 Souther Cross 35’ - owner 78. Comes by but I dint think he has sailed in a while.
2 my wife and I liveaboards , 70 and 68
3 Canadian Sailcraft 36, owner (69) was just by and says he is considering selling, physical issues.
4 42’ nice French design, I think it is a very nice but has been a 7 year dock queen. 66 yo liveaboard. Just got a very nasty diagnosis. 
5 45’ Hunter CC, 50 yo couple just trying to head out and got covided.

I can see 3 of these 5 boats going on the market in 12 to 24 months.

I wonder how typical that is for the market? Baby boomers aging out?

Hunting has in my life time taken a sever nose dive as a sport. Is sailing going the same way?


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

Iirc, hunting is way up


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

For this year due Covid, not over a 40 - 50 year span. 

One is a blip, the other a trend.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

At my marina, I don't think there were an unusual number of no-launches last summer. I was a little surprised at first, but then I realized that fit into the whole boats-as-a-family-friends-cocooning thing. As the vaccine becomes more widely available, I wonder if those that bought boats as a COVID-friendly activity will be doing.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

hpeer said:


> For this year due Covid, not over a 40 - 50 year span.
> 
> One is a blip, the other a trend.


I think some trends are reversing
Power sports, outdoors and the like..is up
Learning if you really enjoy some of these things takes time and people spend that time and money learning
Will be interesting to track


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Generally speaking, when the virus is behind us and reminders no longer linger, most will have short memories. However, if only 5 or10 percent of people retain some new behaviors, that can change the economics of demand for certain industries. Most think hotels will never fully recover, but the industry may get 90% back. That last 10% will be felt. It's just as possible that boating demand retains it's "10%" of increased demand (numbers only to make a point). Even a small retention could be enough to sustain value, if not drive them up further. 

Reminders, things such as mask wearing and municipal travel restrictions or protocols, are likely to be around most of this year. Far less constricting than today, as the vaccine is rolled out, but enough to keep the issue near top of mind for many. First and second world countries should vaccinate most of their population this year, but many third world may never pull that off. Therefore, it may impede international travel for some time. That reminder could keep learned pandemic behaviors alive to some degree.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Annual re-vaccinations to keep up with the mutations will ensure it will never be fully forgotten.


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## skills4lou (Aug 23, 2018)

At least in my situation, deals are still to found. It took a lot of searching, and being willing to travel (3 separate multi day road trips) but last night we found a good deal. I purchased a Hunter 26.5 in good condition for what I think is a good deal. You can find pictures on sailing Texas.

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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

TakeFive said:


> Annual re-vaccinations to keep up with the mutations will ensure it will never be fully forgotten.


That's possible, but those won't interfere with normal social density and travel. The things that keep folks from thinking they shouldn't fully return to normal co-mingling may keep demand for boating higher than recent past, if not quite as high as last year.

It's to be seen if they are necessary, either due to the longevity of the current vaccine or whether mutations are more deadly than the common flu. The typical trajectory of virus mutations over the long term are to be less deadly. It hasn't been very long yet, in virus years, that's for sure.


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## hpeer (May 14, 2005)

Yes to all that about covid.

Covid is not the only driver in the world. It seems we are so fixated on Covid we cant see anything else. 

My comment was about Boomers aging out. Covid is only going to hasten the inevitable there.

My understanding is that the younger generations are very slow to adopt to sailing. That may get a boost due covid. But will it completely off set the reduced number of Boomers?


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

hpeer said:


> Yes to all that about covid.
> 
> Covid is not the only driver in the world. It seems we are so fixated on Covid we cant see anything else.
> 
> ...




The limited data I've been able to track down suggests cruising-level boat ownership has been declining for more than a decade. I think you're exactly right Howard, as the Baby-Boomers increasingly sail off into the sunset, larger boat ownership is dropping.

Some suggest this is due to all the other easier distractions now available, like computer games and endless chatter on Facebooks (and Sailnets ). I think it has more to do with basic economics. The younger generations are less well off than their parents and grandparents. It's the same thing that is driving the so-called "sharing economy," or the fact that kids are leaving home much later than in the past. It's all basic economics.

Regardless of the reasons, I think the supply into the used boat market will continue to expand in the coming years, driving prices lower. I've seen evidence that there is a Covid upward price blip right now, but I don't think this will last.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Viruses seem to mutate toward less deadly forms over the long term, perhaps because dead people can't spread it. That appears to have been Ebola's Achilles heel limiting long-term spread.

COVID may drive a migration away from the cities. It has already affected our planning, as we discovered that physical separation from our friends isn't as debilitating as we thought, allowing us to consider detaching from our current community and relocating for the first phase of our future retirement. We want the focus of the beginning of our retirement to be more outdoors and active, and our new waterfront property will hopefully reflect that. We can always move back closer to the city if this new lifestyle proves disappointing.

We haven't broadcast our plans to relocate, but some of our neighbors are quietly considering the same thing. Two couples (one of which lives right across the street) have mentioned to us that they're shopping for waterfront property in the same area where we're purchasing land, and the ones across the street actually visited our lot last week, not knowing that we were the ones who have it under contract. Whether this "wanderlust" will be a sustainable trend remains to be seen.

The erosion of the North American middle class is a very sad state of affairs, and its impact on the wellbeing of younger generations (and on future political stability) will be an ongoing problem. I'm sad to say that its impact on sailboat supply/demand is merely a snowflake on the tip of the iceberg.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm going to speculate that sailboats 30ft and up have always been owned by the upper-middle class and up. I'll also bet that many people who consider themselves of modest means, don't realize how relatively wealthy they really are. If one owns a boat of any kind, I'll bet they are in at least the upper half of wealth, identified by the mere fact they have any surplus disposable income. I'm not interested in a social debate, just the demographic forecast on boat values. That segment (upper-middle) has and continues to do economically well, so I think, from an economic perspective, demand could hold for a while. There are other correlated demographics too, as upper-middle+ is more likely to be older and more likely to have a college degree.

If the next generation doesn't want to sail, regardless of resources, that's a different matter. The one thing to remember is we're in a very, very niche sport. It does not require the entire generation to have the resources or desire, just a very small segment. Hard to judge, as a result. 

At the moment I can say this for sure. I've been in the market for the last year and there is no shortage of competition for good boats.


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## 4arch (Jul 7, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> I'm going to speculate that sailboats 30ft and up have always been owned by the upper-middle class and up...


Don't you know you're not supposed to say stuff like that around here? You're supposed to long for a return to that magical time when every working class stiff could buy a Catalina 30 for not much more than the price of a case of Schlitz! The internet and millennials have ruined it all, and now the ancient art of sailing is sure to be lost forever in just a few short years!

[In case anyone can't tell, I'm being sarcastic&#8230;]


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## JimInPB (Oct 5, 2020)

I bought one in November. I had looked for more than 6-months to find a deal I could live with. Since then, I have seen two boats sell that were probably better deals than I got. In my area (south Florida) there are a lot of boats available, but most are junk or have other issues, like bad paperwork. A LOT of boats have been changing hands around here.


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## JimInPB (Oct 5, 2020)

My Hunter 26.5 will be going up for sale soon. I plan to ask $8k. I'll see how it goes.


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## JimInPB (Oct 5, 2020)

I recently spoke to a gentleman who bought a hurricane salvage Leopard 40 for around $150k. I thought that was high. It had no mast. One motor worked. It had a lot of wiring corrosion issues. There was some structural damage.

About 6-months earlier, I had turned down a 30-something foot cat in similar condition, with 1 new motor & a second running motor, for $60k.

A friend bought a fixer-upper Pearson 365 for about $8k. He put in a few hundred hours & about another $3-4k. I did a 2-day delivery with him a few weeks ago. The boat seemed generally sound. 

A Hunter 31 sold for about $6k last week. It had termites, but was in otherwise sound condition. It had an arch & good sails. 2gm motor ran well.

A friend bought an Oday 34 in fair condition for about $15k a couple of months ago. 

A Pearson 365 in ready to go condition sold for $22k a few months ago. It was an estate sale.


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## JimInPB (Oct 5, 2020)

A block Island 40 sold for about $15k a few months ago. It needed significant work. The canvass was shot. The Westerbeke started right up & ran smooth. The swing keel moved normally. The interior was 95% good, but had a few little areas that needed new wood. The decks needed a lot of work. The hull needed paint. The bottom needed work. the winches were a mixture of old flat-handle type & modern self-tailers.


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## Dreadpiratkevin (Jan 23, 2021)

Our search ended sooner then anticipated. We just closed the deal on a ‘89 Catalina 34. Asking was 30k, we offered 24 expecting a counter and the seller accepted. Unexpected but I’m content with the price provided the survey shows no problems and the boat is as good as it looks. Not the deal of the century but in addition to what seems a very well kept boat it has a custom winter cover, a heavy steal cradle and its within our normal cruising grounds so no transportation costs. 

Apparently that seller anyway thought the market is not great for sailboats at least in our out of the way corner of the country. 


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