# Exiting Strategies for Boat Ownership



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

At 72 and after a somewhat botched spine surgery I am facing increasing mobility difficulties which impact on my ability to do maintenance mostly, but sailing somewhat. This means I will do less maintenance... letting things go that I normally would do right away... things like wax, varnish replacing running rigging and so forth. Sure if I find someone I can pay for the help, but that can be expensive... and I still have to supervise.

I could simply list the boat for sale. I know most buyers will want to renew some things at least... once they take ownership... new electronics is one. My electronics work fine but are not state of the art N2K stuff. As much as I would like to do that upgrade now... it hardly seems to make sense.

A new coat of varnish might give more eye appeal... lubed winches... new running rigging, new anchor chain + anchor and so forth... But I doubt I would make this money back in the sale. Don 't know.

I would like to actually find the future owner sooner than later... and over a few years transfer ownership. In those few years we would share the use and all the projects... New owner would be the ultimate decider of what those projects are and whether I pay full or partially. I could of course school them on the boat which I have owned since new in 85... and done all the modifications and installs. No one could possibly understand this boat as I do. And I need to pass as much as that knowledge to the new owner. I haven't thought through the economics of the transaction yet. 

I see this long transition one of mutual benefit. I can continue to sail and have help with maintenance... and new owner gets to have my help and knowledge so he is completely confident in operating and all systems.

But I think this would be almost impossible to find. I don't think any brokers would take the listing.

A actual partnership is complex too... as compatibility is an issue. Plus the notion that I am letting go of sole ownership... But I think consensus on decisions should not be difficult.

++++

Any thoughts and suggestions about how I exit ownership aside from the old model of listing with a broker?


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

That would be a great plan....if you could find someone to do it.

I think you may find it hard to find someone who wants to share decision making/ opinions on making the boat 
theirs. They may not appreciate. All you have put into it. Especially if they are from the throw away generation. 

I know when it’s time for me to exit ( and we have discussed this) , I will need to make a clean break. I’ve owned Haleakula nearly as long as you, so the memories and part of the family aspect of our boats will not be shared by a new owner who wants to make her his/ her own boat. Not sure I could watch someone else undo what I have done. Plus I would want to give space to them making their own memories/ fixes. 

For my own head I think a complete break is what I would do. Sell her to hopefully the right person...yes....control it through gradual ownership would not work for me. There are certainly significant chapters in my life I have had already. Both family, career, and personally. These chapters have last pages. That doesn’t mean they are dead over, just that I wanted to start a new chapter. Plus I am in it with my partner for life, she has an equal decision in this. 

There are many other things I want to do, such as world traveling, RV ing in the US and Canada, so I will just have to close that chapter of my life and get my sailing fix by going out with friends I have made , or chartering. ( I meant to tell you when we met this summer you are always welcome to spend time in Maryland with us on Haleakula.) our lives are full and I hope I continue to keep learn and active by pursuing other interests I have. Our sailing has taken up a majority of our time and my wife has been a partner and loved it, and a good sport to boot. She has embraced it, makes all our canvas for years , and enjoys our time together on Haleakula..

I owe it to her to also do the same things while we are still relatively young at 65 by traveling. We never considered subjecting ourselves to permanent life on a boat ( no value judgement here) , as it was to narrow for us and we have many other accomplishable interests. I still have a large bucket list ( Antarctica, Peru, Greenland, and the National Parks in the US and Canada which I would like. To check off some of them in a new chapter of exploration for me, would keep me young and challenged , while I am able to physically do it.

I too had major back surgery a year ago. Mine was successful and it really made me think about things. I am scheduled for a total knee replacement in a month. Retirement is here for both of us. While I will greatly miss owning my own boat and sailing when I want , I have other interests which can replace it.


----------



## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

First off, say it isn’t so SanderO. I value and enjoy your comments here on SN. And somehow it saddens me to think of you without your good old boat. 

I have no real wisdom to offer, except to say I think it is an interesting idea. It feels like something that could only work with a very good friend though. It seems like a lot to ask of an unknown buyer, and indeed of you, to have this kind of prolonged transfer. 

But for the right person, it could be reciprocally great.

BTW, what is it with cruisers and bad backs. I broke mine when I was younger. Have never had surgery, but it gives me constant pain — something that is getting worse with age.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I hope you can find this transitional new owner. 

Of course, the problem is that no two human beings see everything the same. This new owner should appreciate the information, but there is no way they will accept everything as firmly as the old owner insists. That's just life. 

The PO of my boat was and still is an incredible resource. I changed a ton of what he did. Indeed I found mistakes he made that I never mentioned. If he was still around, this would no doubt have a been a source of conflict.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I am well aware of all the problems with this sort of hand off. I think one can think of a boat... like a house or an apartment... you move out and the new owner moves in to blank walls and floors. When you show it they will see all your interiors and "decorating" making it personal and attractive. I will of course remove the art and so forth on board...

I have been on sisterships and they do not feel like home to me. Things like running rigging, rope clutches, windlass and even sails will change the boat... as will upholstery and "decoration". My dodger is on fine shape.. but a new owner could pick a different color or make the a new higher frame. That's fine. Once Shiva goes to someone new... I would hope they would make it theirs.

I think once one commits to exit. the ego has to let go and help the new owner to find the joy in the boat... I am not the only one who can find (and create) this. New owner will have the benefit of my choices and hard work. I have planned a new B&G electronics package. I can give them the design. 

I sail with AP 99% of the time. I hand steer on and off a dock... and when conditions call for it... difficult for the AP or just plain fun! So an instrument pod at the helm makes no sense for me. A friend with a sister ship has the pod and works the boat from behind the helm where his AP controls were mounted by the previous owner. Another sailor may prefer to hand steer or maybe they want to do racing. I think my steering approach may be a rarity. I also don't have/need a bimino because I am not out there under the sun. I have a design for a bimini but never executed.

I do love the 35 and she's a great boat and I learned so much about sailing on that boat. But there comes a time when sailing demands more than you can give... no matter how small those demands are.

I brought Shiva to a dock in CT for the balance of summer. And she'll remain there for winter storage. I hand steered the boat into the slip... but could not jump off and tie the lines... something I like to do lickity split. The deck is about 30" or so above the dock. I feel my knees would collapse or hurt like crazy if I attempted to jump from deck to dock. Tying up at a fuel dock is not a problem as the dock person will handle my lines. And if you are coming in to a dock with other sailors around... you can call for a little help and most will do it gladly. But you can't count on them being there. I can board from the stern with my ladder... and use the pushpit for hand holds/help. I have come to realize that I need decent leg strength and knees to get on and off my boat. My damaged nerve may recover. It may not. I am going on 18 months with this deficit. In fact the hardest part of sailing for me has become getting from my parked car to the boat or launch! Dinghy access is certainly easier for me than a launch or a self tie at a dock.

I have the winter to see if there is more progress in the recovery of my nerve. Knees don't recover... they get worse and then perhaps replaced. YUCK.

I don't think I can pull off the long slower transition... so if next season is as challenging as this one.. the boat will be on the market next fall.

I purchased 6 - 12'x2"x3" planks of teak several years ago to be made into a new rub rail. It seems like a crazy project to do now. I may sell the teak separately or sell it to the next owner.


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Today I turned 73. Since I began my boating at around 12, that's 61 years of mostly "messing about in boats." professionally and privately. I haven't had a home ashore since 1969, just spent time visiting friends and family in their dirt dwellings. So, the thought of being boatless is a bit intimidating. What would I do? 
Fortunately, my wife is considerably younger than I and she is adamant that we remain aboard as long as I can and is willing [/B]and able[/B] to do most of the maintenance, including repairing or replacing pretty much anything from masthead to keel, inside or out, engineering or marlinespike. Not only all that, but she's become a highly praised charter cook!
We have discussed sliding across the aisle to a smaller power boat where I can laze in my $1000.00 helm chair on the climate controlled bridge with a cup of Joe on the dash and my '60s rock playing, as we venture to places I wouldn't visit in a cockpit boat (Canadian Maritimes, Hudson's Bay, Northern passage to AK, etc). Or possibly trading down to a traditional cat or gaff day sailor and living in a small home somewhere warm enough to get a reasonable amount of use from it.
I feel for you and hope you can find a way to have your cake and eat it too, so to speak.


----------



## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

I would make the actual title transfer / financial stuff as clean as possible, easier insurance etc.

If they need to pay over time, you finance hold a lien whatever, but no partnership legally.

The knowledge transfer in exchange for your continued sharing-time on the boat can be informal, if either party want to scale it back does not affect the legal / financial arrangements.

Maybe have a side agreement that you get first dibs on X days per season even if it's without them, as long as the boat's not fully paid off, call that your interest.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

There are plenty of lawyers including one of my close friends to make it complicated . ;-)


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

capta said:


> Today I turned 73. Since I began my boating at around 12, that's 61 years of mostly "messing about in boats." professionally and privately. I haven't had a home ashore since 1969, just spent time visiting friends and family in their dirt dwellings. So, the thought of being boatless is a bit intimidating. What would I do?
> Fortunately, my wife is considerably younger than I and she is adamant that we remain aboard as long as I can and is willing [/B]and able[/B] to do most of the maintenance, including repairing or replacing pretty much anything from masthead to keel, inside or out, engineering or marlinespike. Not only all that, but she's become a highly praised charter cook!
> We have discussed sliding across the aisle to a smaller power boat where I can laze in my $1000.00 helm chair on the climate controlled bridge with a cup of Joe on the dash and my '60s rock playing, as we venture to places I wouldn't visit in a cockpit boat (Canadian Maritimes, Hudson's Bay, Northern passage to AK, etc). Or possibly trading down to a traditional cat or gaff day sailor and living in a small home somewhere warm enough to get a reasonable amount of use from it.
> I feel for you and hope you can find a way to have your cake and eat it too, so to speak.


Happy Birthday! Go for as more as you can!

Cap your situation is different of course... as your life is aboard and you have a sailing partner who can do much of what you were doing if I understand your post. Unfortunately my wifey is great company on board... a fine cook but the only sailing duties she will do is watch and help flake the mainsail at the mast. She has no interest in anything mechanical except watering and potting plants! However her on board is always a great help it seems.

I am ok in moving more of my focus to attending performances and so on... of which there are many in NYC. If invited as a guest to sail... I would accept of course.

I am honored to have learned about sailing and to have cared for Shiva for 35 years and sailed her many tens of thousands of miles. I am also gratified that she was my only boat and she took care of me all those years at sea.


----------



## midwesterner (Dec 14, 2015)

SanderO said:


> I would like to actually find the future owner sooner than later... and over a few years transfer ownership. In those few years we would share the use and all the projects... New owner would be the ultimate decider of what those projects are and whether I pay full or partially. I could of course school them on the boat which I have owned since new in 85... and done all the modifications and installs. No one could possibly understand this boat as I do. And I need to pass as much as that knowledge to the new owner. I haven't thought through the economics of the transaction yet.


I looked up an 85 Contest. It shows a rudder on a skeg, and it looks like there was a wing keel and fin keel version. SailboatData says that they were originally powered by a Volvo Penta?


----------



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

SanderO said:


> Happy Birthday! Go for as more as you can!
> 
> Cap your situation is different of course...


Thanks. 
I am extremely fortunate to have this wife now.
Yes, and I guess that's why i just imparted my story and had no advice for you. Dirt dwelling actually terrifies me. I've been out here so long I kinda feel like that boy raised by wolves in the forest, when I do visit the states.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

midwesterner said:


> I looked up an 85 Contest. It shows a rudder on a skeg, and it looks like there was a wing keel and fin keel version. SailboatData says that they were originally powered by a Volvo Penta?


There were a bunch of versions of the hull.... it began as a 35' LOA with a plumb transom and then they changed the transom and the LOA increased a foot.

They offered a masthead and a fractional rig. I have the fractional.

They offered 3 different keels... wing, shoal and deep fin. I have a deep fin 6'-3" draft.

The offered with or without teak decks. I do not have teak.

The engine is a Volvo MD17D 36 hp 3 cylinder w/ fresh water cooling factory added.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

capta said:


> Thanks.
> I am extremely fortunate to have this wife now.
> Yes, and I guess that's why i just imparted my story and had no advice for you. Dirt dwelling actually terrifies me. I've been out here so long I kinda feel like that boy raised by wolves in the forest, when I do visit the states.


You are indeed... a good wife is a thing to cherish!

I lived on dirt until I got Shiva at 38 yrs old. Only boats I had been on were ferries!

Once I went on a friend's sailboat I was enchanted and the following year he wanted me to be partners with him on a 48' boat. YIKES. I decided to start learning. Deal fell apart and I bought Shiva a year and a few months after my first sail in '85.

I did live aboard in the Carib and in the Canaries... but the vast amount of time I owned the boat I had a place on dirt. I love (and can hate) NYC. It is such an amazing experience in so many ways... except sailing... so you need to drive to get to a nice place to sail. Such is life. I like the yin and yang....

I fear I may miss it in the future.


----------



## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

There may be an owner to fit a transitional ownership thing.
However, I could not think of anything worse than the hell of having the previous owner having any interest whatsoever in my new purchase. 
I pay the money and you give me the keys. All the keys. 

As for getting a broker to list it to find a needle in a haystack... Well... 

So good luck with it but I wouldn't hold my breath.


----------



## jwoytek (Aug 22, 2008)

My wife and I purchased Pinniped this past winter from owners who had decided they were getting older, becoming maybe less capable than they had been, and they didn’t want her to sit. They had listed Pinniped on Craigslist, hoping I think to find someone reasonably close by. When I found the listing and talked to them, they invited us out for a sail. It was the second time the boat had been out all season. 

Pinniped was especially dear to the couple who owned her. They didn’t buy her. They built her from plans in their back yard, over the course of a decade, and then sailed her on the Great Lakes for the better part of 30 years. They designed and fabricated (or had metal shops fabricate from their drawings) every part, fitting, and furnishing on board. They bought the best hardware, rigging, mast, etc. Pinniped was 150% their baby. 

We talked over the course of several weeks. We made an offer, negotiated, and exchanged dollars for papers. I think we all understood that this was less of a purchase, and more of a change of caretakers. They spent a lot of time with us going over her, and they continue to answer questions as they come up. 

It has been a really positive relationship. I know it had to hurt to step off of her after they helped to deliver her to our nearby marina after launch. They know literally every inch of Pinniped, and they continue to be a vault of knowledge when I have run into problems or wanted advice on how to do something. 

I know this doesn’t really help much, but maybe it can show that there are some people out there who get it, and will understand your connection and your desire to help them get going on the right foot. I know that when it is time for us to move on, we will be looking for a new caretaker in much the same way. 

Jonathan


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> There may be an owner to fit a transitional ownership thing.
> However, I could not think of anything worse than the hell of having the previous owner having any interest whatsoever in my new purchase.
> I pay the money and you give me the keys. All the keys.
> 
> ...


I think for some buyers buying in over time... with seller financing can make sense. Seller gets his number and buyer can avoid interest.

If I got the dollar amount I want I could walk away and new owner would be left to figure it out and likely call me frequently for help. What would you do? Charge for your time as a consultant? Or give this help away for free?

++++

A friend recently purchased a sister ship to go use for live aboard and sailing south and eventually to the West Coast. He was up against the task of fitting out the boat for that purpose. His decisions were in almost all systems/cases very different from mine. Obviously he wants to sail differently. I like some of his ideas and not others... but all were well executed and work for him and his needs. It shows how the same hull can be "upgraded" differently for similar missions and be successful because different sailors have different ideas. One example... He's a young guy and went with a manual horizontal windlass... and all chain. I was a bit older than him when I installed a reversing electric vertical with a cockpit remote w/ up and down capability. I am very satisfied with how my windlass and anchoring worked out.

The new owner experienced or not... buys the decisions and thinking and sailing approach of the previous owner. An experienced buy likely has very specific ideas of what they want and may be faced with alterations or getting used to the previous owner's decisions.

A fair amount of boats... such as charter boats are fitted for local sailing and designed to comfort it seems. This may or may not suit the type of sailing of someone who purchases a former charter boat...


----------



## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

For what it's worth, selling 4 previous boats, most new owners stayed in touch with me for years. I'd get a call with a question, like what does this switch do again? Many of the new owners asked me to go out with them a couple of times for a sail. I enjoyed this. They became friends. Some are still in touch.

But in each case, I sold them the boat. They took full ownership. At least one owner decided to replace dodger, sail cover, etc with a canvas of a hideous color. I refrained from comment. It's their boat now.

I've been lucky to never sell a boat to someone I didn't actually like. I know others who have, so no guarantees, but assuming you don't need an immediate out for some reason, you can be selective with whom you negotiate, and with whom you insist on full ask. I have to admit melting at least once when a young enthusiastic couple clearly couldn't come to my number, I probably gave them too much of a break, but the experience was worth it. 

Sailing is an experience. A sail boat is so much more than a thing. The whole thing needs to be right, and fun, including purchase and sale, the lasting experience, the camaraderie of a common set of experiences.

So, IMHO, sell it fully. Transfer ownership. But try to find someone who's the right buyer, and help them out. Sailing self selects people that you are going to like for the most part. Don't deal with someone you don't. They will probably exit the hobby as soon as they find out how it isn't like the movie they saw, it rains sometimes, it gets nautical out there, and stuff breaks. By not negotiating with people like this you are doing them a favor. Hand off your boat to a new owner who will change somethings, but love sailing as much as you do.

Good luck SanderO, I really enjoy your posts and hope you hang in here whatever happen.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

capecodda said:


> For what it's worth, selling 4 previous boats, most new owners stayed in touch with me for years. I'd get a call with a question, like what does this switch do again? Many of the new owners asked me to go out with them a couple of times for a sail. I enjoyed this. They became friends. Some are still in touch.
> 
> But in each case, I sold them the boat. They took full ownership. At least one owner decided to replace dodger, sail cover, etc with a canvas of a hideous color. I refrained from comment. It's their boat now.
> 
> ...


Great post. Boats mean different things to different people. I expect to continue commenting on SN for the foreseeable future. No worries there.

Sure if some comes to me with my asking price and wants to sail the boat to MD... so be it. I wouldn't turn the sale down.

I also think that there is a market in LIS and a slow hand off may make sense for a long time owner and a new one. I think this is especially true in the case (mine) where the boat has been own fore more than a decade or two and been used for passages, lived aboard in the tropics and cruised locally in NE. It's not a common boat either... especially in the USA. And it's not even well known.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> I think for some buyers buying in over time... with seller financing can make sense. Seller gets his number and buyer can avoid interest.


Advertising seller financing would definitely attract buyers, but maybe not the kind you want.

Many years ago, a friend's wife offered to by an old motorcycle of mine for my friend's birthday. She asked if she could pay me in three installments over 3 months. Of course, I agreed. She stiffed me on the last payment. Months more went buy, until I told my friend that she never paid. He was mortified and paid me himself. Yea, this was with someone I considered a friend, not some stranger. Never assume anything.



> If I got the dollar amount I want I could walk away and new owner would be left to figure it out and likely call me frequently for help. What would you do? Charge for your time as a consultant? Or give this help away for free?


I took you to be a bit more generous than this comment implies. I'm still in touch with PO of my boat, which I bought a decade ago. My questions have slowed considerably, but I had a ton in the first few years. He was glad to reply. He would even send me information unsolicited, as he recalled some things. I still keep him up to date on where we take his former pride and joy, what upgrades we've made and our plans for the upcoming year. He seems to enjoy staying emotionally connected. I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but he shed tears when we pulled away from his slip all those years back.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Advertising seller financing would definitely attract buyers, but maybe not the kind you want.
> 
> Many years ago, a friend's wife offered to by an old motorcycle of mine for my friend's birthday. She asked if she could pay me in three installments over 3 months. Of course, I agreed. She stiffed me on the last payment. Months more went buy, until I told my friend that she never paid. He was mortified and paid me himself. Yea, this was with someone I considered a friend, not some stranger. Never assume anything.
> 
> I took you to be a bit more generous than this comment implies. I'm still in touch with PO of my boat, which I bought a decade ago. My questions have slowed considerably, but I had a ton in the first few years. He was glad to reply. He would even send me information unsolicited, as he recalled some things. I still keep him up to date on where we take his former pride and joy, what upgrades we've made and our plans for the upcoming year. He seems to enjoy staying emotionally connected. I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but he shed tears when we pulled away from his slip all those years back.


Of course I would provide support to the new owner. And this would have to involve a few full days of going over every system. They would have to take notes because too much to commit to memory.

++++

If I felt OK to sail and operate the boat... the final turnover would be very difficult. However I am anticipating that my mobility will gradually decline to the point where it will be too difficult and I will have to face reality and let go. I will not be the first. I thin the slow transition will reveal this... and make it physically and emotionally easier.


----------



## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Sander: I just sold a boat this summer, one I had owned since 1999. In that time, I had worked on just about every square inch of the boat, making upgrades and changes. My circumstances are different than yours, as I was selling because I had bought a new (bigger) boat; so, no withdrawal pains for me. 

Nevertheless, it was still difficult to let go. Based on the first few potential buyers who looked at the boat, I thought I would be helping the new owner set up and launch the boat, and to maybe even help them learn to sail. However, I wound up selling to a guy who was an "expert" in this particular model of my boat. According to him, he had owned several Odays in the past, including two previous boats of this model. So he had no need or desire for my input. I offered to show him my changes and modifications, and he politely declined. The boat was launched and docked two slips away from my new boat for a few weeks, and I noticed a few things that he had changed. It was decidedly strange. And a little sad. I think if it weren't for my new boat (which I am very excited about), I would have been in quite a funk. If I were serving as a mentor for a new owner, I am convinced I would be much happier.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

mstern said:


> Sander: I just sold a boat this summer, one I had owned since 1999. In that time, I had worked on just about every square inch of the boat, making upgrades and changes. My circumstances are different than yours, as I was selling because I had bought a new (bigger) boat; so, no withdrawal pains for me.
> 
> Nevertheless, it was still difficult to let go. Based on the first few potential buyers who looked at the boat, I thought I would be helping the new owner set up and launch the boat, and to maybe even help them learn to sail. However, I wound up selling to a guy who was an "expert" in this particular model of my boat. According to him, he had owned several Odays in the past, including two previous boats of this model. So he had no need or desire for my input. I offered to show him my changes and modifications, and he politely declined. The boat was launched and docked two slips away from my new boat for a few weeks, and I noticed a few things that he had changed. It was decidedly strange. And a little sad. I think if it weren't for my new boat (which I am very excited about), I would have been in quite a funk. If I were serving as a mentor for a new owner, I am convinced I would be much happier.


Thanks for the story and the circumstances are very different... with the only common thing is you relate selling a boat you owned and loved for almost 20 years.

Contest36s is not a common boat and those who want them seem to be a different sort from owners of Hunters, Pearson, Catalinas and so on. For one is it is a European built boat. Sure there are now several euro makers selling in US... even building here. I think Bene is one. Halberg Rassey, Swan, Dufor, Wauquiez and several others are in a different niche. Contest is kinda in that niche. Build quality is usually very high. Contest is built to Lloyd's specs.

People who wander by the few times Shiva is tied on a dock usually have no idea what the boat is who made and so on. But almost always make very positive comments. Those who come below are universally impressed by the workmanship, layout and volume including headroom. But people who don't know the boat are not looking for one. So Contest36s is a niche market.

She was sold as a racer cruiser. I don't race and didn't set the boat up for racing. She was used for local and distance cruising and has been equipped for that. But she is a fast sailer and I make 150-175 miles a day offshore and have done LIS to Bermuda in 4 1/2 a number of times... always less than 5 days.

She's super comfortable below and in the cockpit... where 3 adults can lie fully down if they want to! The boat is dry... probably because of the high free board. I have seen no boat in this size range with a well designed or comfortable cockpit. Very very easy to single hand as well.

A new sailor can't or may not see all the pluses that Zaal did with this brilliant design. I am not sure what sort of sailor would want this boat... but clearly they would be one who understands what the design is about and what sort of sailing it targets successfully.

I'll see what shows up.


----------



## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

The Contest is a very different boat from the most popular boat of that size and vintage - the Catalina 36. It will take someone that wants a heavier cruiser over a lighter racer/cruiser. You may have to wait awhile for the right person to show up.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

JimsCAL said:


> The Contest is a very different boat from the most popular boat of that size and vintage - the Catalina 36. It will take someone that wants a heavier cruiser over a lighter racer/cruiser. You may have to wait awhile for the right person to show up.


Jim, Indeed the two boats are very different. But it's not just some numbers.

Why do you say heavier? Are you concerned about 900#s????

CONTEST36s Deep fin

Ballast cast iron 6,475#
Displacement 15,985#
Displacement/Length RATIO	285
Screening FACTOR 183
Sail Area/Displacement RATIO	21.8

CATALINA 36

All fin keel models displace 15,000#
ballast 6,000#


----------



## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I’ve gone halvies on most of my boats. Did this while working as with a call schedule to do otherwise didn’t make sense.
Usage was clearly outlined. I got alternating weeks as did the other owner. We also picked two weeks each uninterrupted so a yearly cruise was possible. Lastly we often invited each other to go sailing together but this was at our discretion. Expense were split in half. Maintenance as well. This worked great. With one partner we were equally skilled. With the other I was more skilled but he made up of it with doing more unskilled labor. In both cases we started as friends and left as friends. In both cases the partnership lasted through several boats. 
A boat is a tool to allow an activity. At your stage of the game would think about a partnership. You get to sail. The other party benefits from your experience and skills. Either of you have the opportunity to leave. Give the remaining partner right of first refusal. If not exercised just sell it.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Jeff,

I hope you can find someone who meets your requirements and allows you to continue to sail on Shiva. To you the love of her is obvious and she has been a major part of your life for a long time.

I can only think of myself facing this same proposition in the next 10 years or sooner if my knee operation does not improve things. I in fact have had these discussions this year with my wife who is as invested emotionally as much as I am. It will be exceeding difficult for us to sell her to someone else.

I think you have to look carefully at yourself ( referring to me, but maybe you too) . We have some similarities, confirmed by us meeting this summer. I for one could never do what you are planning. I would want to, but I don’t think I could give up the control. When ever I have sold a house, I didn’t stay. 

Someone buying a 36 foot boat will probably be experiencing a move up. I know I wanted to make Haleakula mine many years ago when I bought her. I would not have wanted to discuss or seek even tacit approval from anyone else let alone its previous owner. Many more people will be looking to outright buy a boat. Partnerships I would bet or even limited ones are probably very rarely found. 

I could only wonder what you would do after the deal is struck if/ when you found the new owner didn’t leave things in the pristine condition like you do. I would wonder how you would feel personally to see in person Shiva become someone else’s. Emotionally I would have a hard time with this. It might even make it more difficult for me to deal with my own decline which caused me to consider selling my boat. It would make it more difficult for me to move on to something else with my time and life. 

I think you are very special if you can get through these hurdles. I am trying to look at this as the owner like you. I am a long term owner like you. I am very attached emotionally to Haleakula. While she isn’t a Swedish produced boat, I feel she is as well made. She has a combination of old world teak and mahogany, a comfortable sailing platform which performs well in the area in which I sail in., we have definitely made her ours over the last 20 years. All of her electronics and improvements were personally installed. I had the choice to when I bought Haleakula years ago, to buy a boat identical of your Shiva, and chose the boat I did, because of many factors. 

As a person who has bought 3 and sold 2 keelboats, I am wondering what advantage would it be to take a deal buying a 30+ year old boat , where the boat clearly wasn’t mine. How would you market that? And then there is the legalese part of it. Once money changes hands....who is the owner.

In concept and intellectually I understand what and why you want to do, but how do you actually do that.


----------



## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Jim, Indeed the two boats are very different. But it's not just some numbers.
> 
> Why do you say heavier? Are you concerned about 900#s????
> 
> ...


As to a lighter 36 foot racer/cruiser, I was thinking more of something like the C&C 110 like BarryL has; or one of the cruising J's, or a Bene First.

I mentioned the Cat 36 because it was produced by the thousands, and there are always dozens on the market. It and the Catalina 34 just about define a 1980s coastal cruiser in this size range. I suspect it's going to be a challenge to get a less knowledgeable shopper looking for a mid-30 foot coastal cruiser to look past them and take a look at your Contest.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

JimsCAL said:


> I mentioned the Cat 36 because it was produced by the thousands, and there are always dozens on the market. It and the Catalina 34 just about define a 1980s coastal cruiser in this size range. I suspect it's going to be a challenge to get a less knowledgeable shopper looking for a mid-30 foot coastal cruiser to look past them and take a look at your Contest.


Thanks for the clarification Jim. Shiva is both a fast and comfortable boat and solid as well.

I am not looking to wow an uniformed prospective buyer. I am looking to turn the boat over to someone who appreciates the boat, its pedigree and design features as well as my work in making it easy to single or short hand sail. Uniformed boater may not know enough to look for what to me are the right features in a racer cruiser. Light to me is mostly what racers want. The 36s is also a great offshore boat... as well as a very comfortable coastal cruiser. Racers don't look at the 36s.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Thanks for the clarification Jim. Shiva is both a fast and comfortable boat and solid as well.
> 
> I am not looking to wow an uniformed prospective buyer. I am looking to turn the boat over to someone who appreciates the boat, its pedigree and design features as well as my work in making it easy to single or short hand sail. Uniformed boater may not know enough to look for what to me are the right features in a racer cruiser. Light to me is mostly what racers want. The 36s is also a great offshore boat... as well as a very comfortable coastal cruiser. Racers don't look at the 36s.


Our old girl , C&C 35 MKIII of the same vintage ( 1983 ) as Shiva is a true racer / cruiser. PHRF rated at 127 vs the Contest 36S at 153.

I would definitely rather be offshore and cruise on the Contest. I would rather race and have the C&C in the light winds of the Chesapeake and LI SoundThat's what I think her niche is. A fairly good sailor.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> Our old girl , C&C 35 MKIII of the same vintage ( 1983 ) as Shiva is a true racer / cruiser. PHRF rated at 127 vs the Contest 36S at 153.
> 
> I would definitely rather be offshore and cruise on the Contest. I would rather race and have the C&C in the light winds of the Chesapeake and LI SoundThat's what I think her niche is. A fairly good sailor.


Makes perfect sense... I am not into any sort of formal round the buoys etc. racing. Or even ocean racing. I do think some distance races can be fun just to have a crew, the camaraderie and the focus on getting the boat to perform as best she can.

On the distances I typically sail in a day... I haven't found the 36s to be slow by any means. But she is not a light air boat. For me comfort and ease of use are more important that raw speed and light wind sailing. Sailing on the Sound she seems to do well enough compared to boats of similar size. We're talking more differences of minutes in distances sailed over a day not hours.

When I bought the boat I hadn't a clue about any of this. I came to understand it as I sailed the boat. And the more I did the more I appreciated what Zaal accomplished with this design.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I'm sure you've looked at this

Here are some comps

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1985/contest-36s-3521496/?refSource=enhanced listing
New engine too....looks taken care of......good tankage......lots of nice extras ( solar, wind) . Older sails

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1985/contest-36s-3521496/?refSource=enhanced listing
This one had a rough paper route


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> I'm sure you've looked at this
> 
> Here are some comps
> 
> ...


Dave.. thanks... never saw this and have not even looked into other 36s boats. Looks like it was repowered with a Yanmar.

When and if I do produce a series of photos... I believe Shiva will look at lot better than the one your referenced. But that is a matter of opinion.


----------



## 227702 (Oct 23, 2013)

The Contest 36 is a very attractive vessel.
If the exterior of your boat is comparable to the interior in appearance, you should have no problem finding a new caretaker for your beloved Shiva. Insofar as your very complicated co-owner proposal...you already know deep inside that a clean break would be best. Regardless of what you decide, fair winds to you, Mate.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Thanks Baja!

I am coming to a period where I am sailing less and having the same maintenance demands with a decreased physical condition (old age ;-)). A slow transition seems to fit better than a clean break... But I am open to anything and haven't actually produced the listing. I am still doing some needed projects. Of course the boat is never done.... if it is sailed and considering things come up regularly which demand attention. I have designed an N2K electronics upgrade but am not going to do because my instruments, though old work perfectly and are accurate. This is some new owners like to do... select their instruments.

Thanks for the comment! 

We'll see what happens over the next 8 months....


----------



## SanJul (Sep 27, 2019)

SanderO -
Your post hits home and truly resonates with my own situation, although I am putting a 10-15 year plan in place. I have a small Cape Cod Catboat and sail her on an inland lake in Eugene, Oregon. The boat belonged to my father and together, we picked her up in Wareham, MA when I was 19. He sailed her in Ohio and Florida mostly, and when he turned 80 he moved to Oregon to be closer to me and to live out his final years. He taught me how to sail a gaffer and care for her and since his passing over a decade ago, I have completely immersed myself in this perfect little boat. She is the only gaffer on the lake and is often complemented for her classic lines and beautiful sailing profile. If I had a dime for every time someone hollered, “Nice boat!” as they sailed by, I could pay my moorage. 

Needless to say, I love my boat and want to sail her into old age. I’m 61 now and hope to stay healthy and fit enough to live out that dream, which includes finding the right person to pay it forward. I have taken numerous people sailing, but one friend in particular has shown the type of interest and enthusiasm that makes me feel like I want to start the succession planning now. A few days ago I made the offer and I’m happy to say she was honored and thrilled with the prospect. 

In the next 10 years or so, my friend and I will continue to sail together whilst I show her all the aspects of sailing, caring for and enjoying this wonderful boat. She will discover the joy of taking her friends and family out for a sail and at some point, buy the boat and take me sailing. For me, this is the absolute BEST case scenario. I feel so fortunate to have a long term plan with a dear friend who loves my boat almost as much as I do and will carry on the legacy my father started all those years ago.


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I have sold a few boats Sandero. Nothing like Shiva, but its always hard anyway. 

I forsee it being pretty painful the day it happens - and then you will quickly get over that feeling and find yourself with a lot more time and money. 

But the day you sell will really suck.


----------



## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

For heavens' sake, it's just a boat. A thing. It does not define you.

When the fun-to-suck ratio is imbalanced, move on. Loosing a close friend or spouse is traumatic. Selling a boat is just a bit of work.


----------



## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Not everyone's experience is the same, but each's is equally valid, not to be judged so cavalierly.

Romantic partnerships can in fact be very easy to let go of, once their time has passed, regardless of the paperwork.


----------



## BobT (Apr 27, 2019)

Greetings SanderO,

I'm interested in Shiva and in learning from you... please PM me. 

Thanks,
BobT


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

BobT said:


> Greetings SanderO,
> 
> I'm interested in Shiva and in learning from you... please PM me.
> 
> ...


Do you look ve in San Diego?


----------



## BobT (Apr 27, 2019)

Greetings Chef,
Yes, I do live in San Diego.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Buying a used boat that is not close to where you live represents a lot of problems/issues... not to mention moving it to where you intend to keep it.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Could pretty easily put a 36 ft boat on a truck and get it across the country. That size doesn’t require many or any special highway permits. Not the perfect transition, of course.


----------



## BobT (Apr 27, 2019)

SanderO said:


> Buying a used boat that is not close to where you live represents a lot of problems/issues... not to mention moving it to where you intend to keep it.





Minnewaska said:


> Could pretty easily put a 36 ft boat on a truck and get it across the country....


Good points from both of you.

My situation is a bit unusual:
- The apartment building in which I live will be demolished for new construction in the near future, so I will need to move. I don't have a plan yet, as I put my future on hold when discovered I wanted to go sailing again.
- I'm single and have no family.
- My job is totally portable, and I can live anywhere in the US and keep working.
- I plan to retire in a couple of years. My employer is ok with this.
- I have relocated a few times. Sacramento to San Diego, San Diego to Asheville, NC (5 year stay) and back, San Diego to Cairo, Egypt, for a year and back.
- The ties I once had to San Diego are gone.

So I'm pretty portable.

My plan has been to find a suitable boat, move aboard, and leave for parts elsewhere. I hadn't been looking at the east coast, but SanderO's situation and boat made me want to at least discuss the possibilities.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

BobT said:


> Good points from both of you.
> 
> My situation is a bit unusual:
> - The apartment building in which I live will be demolished for new construction in the near future, so I will need to move. I don't have a plan yet, as I put my future on hold when discovered I wanted to go sailing again.
> ...


You have a more flexibility than most. There are several sailing options...

live aboard in a slip somewhere, keep a car and so on and cruise locally or wherever. You can even rent a studio apartment to keep things and so on.

You can sail off into the wild blue yonder as many want to do... usually to the tropics. You and the boat need to be up to the task... and it may take several years to get to that level.

You can find the boat that suits you anywhere and decide where to home base... You can sail it there... or have it transported... by crew or on a truck perhaps.


----------



## BobT (Apr 27, 2019)

SanderO said:


> There are several sailing options...


After sailing to Ensenada earlier this year, I realized I could afford to keep a boat there, and commute from San Diego until I retire, then move aboard. So that had become Plan A until I read SanderO's post. Now I need to regroup a bit.


----------



## cederholm (Jun 12, 2013)

So close yet so far!

Hi SanerO, what your looking for might have been a good fit for me, but you’re on the other side of the sound. I sail out of Stratford Ct. 

I’m considering a boat that size as my first but could use the guidance and experience you possess. 

Best,
Carl


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

As you must know, there is a ferry from Bridgeport, virtually next to you, to Port Jeff, LI. 

If there was a will, there would be a way. It's to be seen, if SO has decided to go this route, however.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

cederholm said:


> So close yet so far!
> 
> Hi SanerO, what your looking for might have been a good fit for me, but you're on the other side of the sound. I sail out of Stratford Ct.
> 
> ...


Not a issue... where the boat is moored for me is mostly about convenience and an attractive harbor... and that means with some marine service and good land side amenities. CT shore is more convenient for me as far as getting to the boat. But when you consider an entire weekend aboard... there is little difference in spending 1 hr total time getting to and from the boat and 2+ hrs.

I don't like to drive.... but I can listen to some music I like, with some I can have some relaxed conversation... make hands free calls or just think, and plan and so on. I DON'T like traffic because it is distracting. So I go to and from the boat off peak hrs. My car is comfortable and enjoyable to drive and easy to park.

I have a very very strong preference for a mooring as opposed to a slip because I do spend time on the boat but not underway. Marinas are good for in water winter storage, but I don't stay over night. Shiva is in a marina in Stamford at a very convenient location. Staying on a marina is like living in a parking lot!

I suppose if I found the right partner for the "slow transition/exit" a summer slip is possible. But I would not stay aboard in the marina... only sail from and return to it. For someone who wants to live aboard and work slips are more convenient.

Be flexible!


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Not a issue... where the boat is moored for me is mostly about convenience and an attractive harbor... and that means with some marine service and good land side amenities. CT shore is more convenient for me as far as getting to the boat. But when you consider an entire weekend aboard... there is little difference in spending 1 hr total time getting to and from the boat and 2+ hrs.
> 
> I don't like to drive.... but I can listen to some music I like, with some I can have some relaxed conversation... make hands free calls or just think, and plan and so on. I DON'T like traffic because it is distracting. So I go to and from the boat off peak hrs. My car is comfortable and enjoyable to drive and easy to park.
> 
> ...


Keeping your boat in a marina is like living in a parking lot. That's a bit harsh. Kind of like saying keeping a boat on a mooring is for anti social people.

Think of all the time and energy you waste spend getting to your boat. 
You can't easily check on her in bad weather. 
You don't have to worry about being hit.
Easier to work on.
And maybe most of all boat is more protected.
I like being able to talk to other sailors, and is good for my wife.
As I age easy to get to the boat...on and off.
Easier to clean the boat.

Some of your feeling may come from the fact your area has very few marinas. And they are way more expensive. Chessie has very few mooring fields. Not only that many more creeks with houses and docks to keep boats.

I think you've adapted to your area.

Our marina located on a small creek. A walk in the AM takes you past horse farms. It's in a tree lined neighborhood. In a hurricane hole protected from wind and fetch. Not all marinas are like the mega marinas you see on the Sound.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> Keeping your boat in a marina is like living in a parking lot. That's a bit harsh. Kind of like saying keeping a boat on a mooring is for anti social people.
> 
> Think of all the time and energy you waste spend getting to your boat.
> You can't easily check on her in bad weather.
> ...


Your points are valid... I do large projects in winter storage in a slip... most other projects I can do perfectly well on the mooring or anchor as they mostly repair and maintenance.

Yes time is "wasted" getting from shore to boat. But it's a nice transition too.

I suppose one could call it anti social... but no more than people who live in the country side on a large plot. I live in an apartment in an urban setting... I prefer the reverse when on the boat.

Everything is a compromise. If marinas were the same cost as a mooring... I would still prefer a mooring!


----------



## cederholm (Jun 12, 2013)

SanderO said:


> Not a issue... where the boat is moored for me is mostly about convenience and an attractive harbor... and that means with some marine service and good land side amenities. CT shore is more convenient for me as far as getting to the boat. But when you consider an entire weekend aboard... there is little difference in spending 1 hr total time getting to and from the boat and 2+ hrs.
> 
> I don't like to drive.... but I can listen to some music I like, with some I can have some relaxed conversation... make hands free calls or just think, and plan and so on. I DON'T like traffic because it is distracting. So I go to and from the boat off peak hrs. My car is comfortable and enjoyable to drive and easy to park.
> 
> ...


Interning. My boatclub has a mooring field in Stratford. If you're still consisting this route feel free to IM me. I need to do some research about that type of boat.

Best,
Carl

PS - ever stop into Carl's Candies in downtown Northport? One of the owners is a dear friend. ...and the name has nothing to do with me. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Ironically, I’ve lived in urban apartments, more than once. They are clearly the most anonymous form of dwelling. No one can see whether you’re home, what you’re doing, etc. It’s almost like being invisible, among millions. 

I like the social aspect of being in the marina. We’re surrounded by all kinds. Some very, very close friends, some characters, some we rarely see. The only time it’s ever an issue is when I want to get something done and someone wants to shoot the breeze. Otherwise, it’s all good. We even like saying hello to the dockhands as they move about.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I am looking to be more surrounded by nature... than having a social thing with other sailors... I have been in marinas a few times in 35 years and it was OK and at times obnoxious... and the only place where some things went missing from my boat.

I lived on the hook for 4 years in the Eastern Caribe... and few places has slips... and they were often for charter fleets. People out there are not going from marina to marina... in my experience.

But I had a mechanic do some work on my refer and didn't want to drag his tools on the launch or the dink.... easy peasy... I bring the boat along side the town dock.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

We sail every weekend and get our nature time on the hook too. We rarely take a slip while cruising around, but home base is different. Balance. 

Transient slips can be less desirable, as you don't know anyone. The worst are the tourist marinas that are mostly transients, especially if they are accessible to the shore tourists walking up and down the docks (eg. Nantucket). You can't have coffee, without some family standing next to you and staring. I always take a mooring in Nantucket.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> We sail every weekend and get our nature time on the hook too. We rarely take a slip while cruising around, but home base is different. Balance.
> 
> Transient slips can be less desirable, as you don't know anyone. The worst are the tourist marinas that are mostly transients, especially if they are accessible to the shore tourists walking up and down the docks (eg. Nantucket). You can't have coffee, without some family standing next to you and staring. I always take a mooring in Nantucket.


I get sailing camaraderie on sailnet and even made a great friend in Sal Paradise who sails with me.

We spend weekends on the mooring... why? Sometimes the winds are too light... the clouds too dark... or it's raining.... or too much breeze and from the wrong direction. No I wouldn't spend the weekend in these conditions in a slip in some marina.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

We live aboard four days per week, regardless of weather. There are no clouds or wind conditions, short of a gale, that would keep us on the dock, for at least the middle two days. If the weekend was a total rainy washout, we might not go, but a period of rain is irrelevant. Neither the crew, nor the boat, melt. I'd say there are two, maybe three weekends we end up staying at the slip (excluding commissioning and winterization). Boat projects prevail, plus dinner and drinks with friends are a certainty.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> We live aboard four days per week, regardless of weather. There are no clouds or wind conditions, short of a gale, that would keep us on the dock, for at least the middle two days. If the weekend was a total rainy washout, we might not go, but a period of rain is irrelevant. Neither the crew, nor the boat, melt. I'd say there are two, maybe three weekends we end up staying at the slip (excluding commissioning and winterization). Boat projects prevail, plus dinner and drinks with friends are a certainty.


Years ago I went out in anything... But I have had Shiva for 35 years. I was in an intense love affair with sailing... Now I am in marriage in both senses... and my wife is not a sailor... and though she's a good sport about weather... she definitely prefers fair weather sailing... I need to keep wifey happy. So we do sail off on weekends with favorable weather... period. Longer mini cruising we deal with what the weather is... period.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

No right or wrong, I was just describing how I feel we have it all, being at a slip.

Are you still thinking about your exit strategy? You have a couple of bites in your thread.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> No right or wrong, I was just describing how I feel we have it all, being at a slip.
> 
> Are you still thinking about your exit strategy? You have a couple of bites in your thread.


Of course there is no right or wrong way to use a boat as long as you respect the rights of others and the environment and laws.

+++

Yes I am still exploring the slow transition. I have had 3 very interesting sailors from SN reach out to me about this. I am meeting one (and his family) this weekend at the boat. Another one indicated he would visit from from the left coast as he now a widow, and his apartment building is being demolished so he's thinking of leaving dirt life and where is not a constraint since he can move his floating home wherever at some point. He's sailed in the Chessie and LIS/Southern NE is an attractive sailing as you well know.

I don't know exactly what the slow transition will be... only that it will take a number of years... have a shared ownership and use and I will offer financing. There are legal barriers but I will pass under that bridge when I have to to get where I want to go.

One issue which looms large is the value of Shiva. This is fairly intangible and there is no formula to arrive at it. I will look at all recent Contest 36s sales and what their condition and inventory is.
I will convey with the boat extensive spares, including teak, tools, auto pilot, and several anchors I have stored in my garage. I will never get back the bucks I put into the boat. But why should I? I got 35 years of use and vacations and adventures. So lets say I had to pay for all that fun... say.... $5,000 a year. That's approaching $200K. And the value of the friendships and experiences I had/made because I bought and sailed Shiva is priceless.

I don't have any way to do a financial profit loss for owning the boat including the money not spent on summer rentals and so forth. My hunch is that I did fine.... and I don't care. It was a privilege and honor to own, sail and care for this wonderful boat.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Setting a value will be very hard and, as you note, has nothing to do with what you've spent over the years. Condition theoretically does, but only to the right buyer. You'll have to decide how long you can or want to wait for the right buyer. Owner financing can attract buyers too, but get good advice on how to do that and perfect your lien. Even if they stop paying, that doesn't mean they can't continue to use their boat, they still own half. You can only exercise your agreed upon remedies, which typically require court order. Even a right to foreclose the collateral does not allow you to prevent access, while working through that drawn out court process. 

All boats come with extras, like parts, anchors, fenders, etc. Personally, I don't think they have any impact on value, whatsoever. It's like having two identical condos, immediately next to each other, but one comes with a bunch of household furnishings. The one with the stuff probably sells first, but they are both the same general price. I consider all the extras a reason someone may choose to buy my boat, over another, but not a value enhancement. JMO.

The fair value of your boat is probably something in the range of what they've sold for, not what they are listed for sale. I'd suspect yours may be at the top end of the range, as you've described her. The trick is deciding how long you want to wait for someone else to agree. Good luck. Tough choices.


----------



## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Finding an honest, patient & cooperative "transition partner" that you get along with is one thing.

A straight buyer motivated to pay a "fair value" (from your POV) in a straight sale, is a very different profile.

Choose one approach or the other, completely unrealistic to think you'll find both aspects in one person.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Setting a value will be very hard and, as you note, has nothing to do with what you've spent over the years. Condition theoretically does, but only to the right buyer. You'll have to decide how long you can or want to wait for the right buyer. Owner financing can attract buyers too, but get good advice on how to do that and perfect your lien. Even if they stop paying, that doesn't mean they can't continue to use their boat, they still own half. You can only exercise your agreed upon remedies, which typically require court order. Even a right to foreclose the collateral does not allow you to prevent access, while working through that drawn out court process.
> 
> All boats come with extras, like parts, anchors, fenders, etc. Personally, I don't think they have any impact on value, whatsoever. It's like having two identical condos, immediately next to each other, but one comes with a bunch of household furnishings. The one with the stuff probably sells first, but they are both the same general price. I consider all the extras a reason someone may choose to buy my boat, over another, but not a value enhancement. JMO.
> 
> The fair value of your boat is probably something in the range of what they've sold for, not what they are listed for sale. I'd suspect yours may be at the top end of the range, as you've described her. The trick is deciding how long you want to wait for someone else to agree. Good luck. Tough choices.


The sell price/value would be based on recent sales. However, owner improvements can change this. What would be the different in "value" between a Contest 36s (built from 1980 -1990 or so) which had original:
hatches
ports
stanchion bases (alum)
teak slats
dodger frame (alum)
winches
stove
instruments
head

and one which had
upgrade hatches
upgrade ports
ungraded head
upgraded cockpit teak seats and grate
upgraded shower grate
Barient winches, mast winch, spinnaker winches
upgraded helm (36")
Electric windlass and chain
below decks AP
Stainless bows for dodger
upgraded blocks
added cleats, line stoppers
faired keep
inner forestay
running backstays
engine hoist crane
alum propane tanks (2)
new stove
joinery upgrades
new upholstery

and the list goes on.

++++

I have to consult a lawyer how to structure this deal... and protect my and the partner's interest.


----------



## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

I would be amazed if a lawyer did not just reco a clean sale, no "transition partnership".

That latter would IMO really need to be something informal, with a friend you trust.


----------



## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I hope you get what you want, but this reminds me a bit of that old saying _"You can't have your cake and eat it too."_

Every partnership I've had has run into a one sided dilemma and I had to get out. Every friend I've done business with has given me a worse deal than I could get from a stranger.

What I am saying is - beware the possible downside and protect yourself.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> I get sailing camaraderie on sailnet and even made a great friend in Sal Paradise who sails with me.
> 
> We spend weekends on the mooring... why? Sometimes the winds are too light... the clouds too dark... or it's raining.... or too much breeze and from the wrong direction. No I wouldn't spend the weekend in these conditions in a slip in some marina.


To me there is no a difference between the faceless internet comradiere and meeting a real person face to face. Ther second being a real conversation which flows. You and I met and had dinner and have talked on the phone. That's a different depth.

We've had two long slip experiences. In both instances we made friends as well as had great interactions.

Where we sail we can get in nature solitarily all the time. We love that about the Chesapeake.

Today may be a perfect day in the Sound. I am sure many are checking their boats ( if their still in the water) due to the nore-Easter. Yawing up and down on a short scope mooring has got to be tougher on a boat than being tied in a slip.

In our marina if you want privacy you can unhook and anchor in the Creek.

If given the choice and all equal , I'll. House the slip in a small marina .


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

I have had a mooring or lived on an anchor since 1985 except for in water winter storage in a slip at boat yard or yacht club. I got plenty of camaraderie at Spring haul/prep. I meet and chat up sailors at the fuel dock, the dinky dock, in town, in the parking lot, at an anchorage, walking the dog in Fort Adams and so on. I prefer to be anchored/moored to being in a slip. I am well aware of the risks and benefits of both and I have no interest in promoting one over the other.

++++

All partnerships, joint ventures and so on are fraught with problems. This is true for an business partnership, a marriage or a boat partnership. There are books which deal with boat partnerships so they can't be that unusual. 

I would not want a partnership if I were "getting into"... or even in the middle of my sailing "life". What I am contemplating is a long exit where the boat is used as it should be and I can't be doing it as I once did... it get the attention it needs... and it can't because of my age / health / stamina / strength / flexibility and commitments. I single handed for 34 years and now I feel it is not prudent to do this so I want to have someone on board. Wifey can't / won't come as often as I want to sail. A shared use also cuts the ownership costs in half.... and who would want that?

But hell yes... the right partner for a boat may be as hard as finding the right partner for a marriage. This doesn't prevent people from getting married... and divorced too.

Even getting into the slow exit will not be a "sign on the dotted line" and then we give it a go. There will be a period where both parties are sizing up the deal, the boat, the commitment and so on.... before entering the "contract"... where the terms will be negotiated.

For someone without a boat... "crewing" on another's boat is / can be easy street... no work, economic and other commitment... just the "fun" of sailing.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The trick with all partnerships is how either party gets out.


----------



## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

I've been following this thread from the beginning and trying to see all sides. I really think you should make a clean break and sell in a traditional way. It's hard enough finding a good buyer, and looking for one who also wants to be in a partnership where he doesn't get full freedom to do what he wants with his new boat may be very difficult.

Regardless of which way you go with this, I wish you well. You're a great contributor here and a knowledgeable sailor. I can see why you're reluctant to fully let go, so I'll understand if you decide to do it your way. Best of luck, and please stick around here.


----------



## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Yes if looking to get lots of cash, "fair market" out, no question straight sale.

But if that isn't important, there's a lot of leverage incentive there for a relative noob to get great training over time, do a lot of the heavy lifting with maintenance etc work, and OP to get more time out on his baby.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Understandably a new owner... and depending on the boat etc... would want to go full immersion. This may be because they have owned other boats and simply want a different one for any number of reasons. They simply want to move to the next boat and get going!

Yet there are probably sailors who have sailed smaller boats... in the low 20s, done no cruising or long sails/passages and jump to a mid 30s and experience something they have only read about. Learning curve is steeper. I know when I got the boat I needed a lot of attention from my best friend who was a sailor and boat owner. We almost were sharing Shiva until I was comfortable to run her alone. I did do all the work myself.... but I was half my age and wanted to learn and understand the systems...all of which I installed or modified or upgraded.

I also think that there need to be methods to escape the deal even or especially in the very early stages. The partners may learn that the deal is not working for them for any number of reasons. If you buy the wrong boat the only options are live with it and use it less... sell it and find something right... or learn to like it. You're supposed to be an informed consumer and not buy the wrong big ticket items.

And then there are those who just get what they want from chartering. Someone else owns, preps and cares for the boat.


----------



## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Stop the whinging and "don't let the old man in"  

How much actual time do you spend on the boat? If you are spending weekends/ part time living then you will miss it, even if you don't take it out so much. If you don't like to do the work, hire someone, I know it's been covered here but that is the simple truth...you don't need to supervise.... 

You might drive any potential boat partner nuts, your need to supervise people who wax boats for a living makes me suspect ( that is not an attack on you, some people are just very picky and a pain in the arse). Many of the folks who might take your deal are probably not the type of people you want as a partner. You could get lucky, but no one is going to pay what that boat is worth, no matter how well maintained and how much time and love you put into it. Sadly, there are other boats of that vintage that have been loved and cared for like yours that can be had for a song. So, anyone looking to finance with sweat equity over a period of years is likely not financially responsible. Yes, there are exceptions but I would say the odds are against you.

Have you considered a sailing club or boat share organization? They can seem expensive until you start really adding up the money one spends every year?

Downsize to something fun and easy to sail? Self tacking jib, nice long tiller so you don't have to stand at the wheel, fewer steps down to the head. Alerions are so cool and you can't take it with you.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

RobGallagher said:


> Stop the whinging and "don't let the old man in"
> 
> How much actual time do you spend on the boat? If you are spending weekends/ part time living then you will miss it, even if you don't take it out so much. If you don't like to do the work, hire someone, I know it's been covered here but that is the simple truth...you don't need to supervise....
> 
> ...


Thank you for this post. You don't get me or my boat or how I sail and would like to in the near future.

I will not buy another boat of any size. PERIOD.

This approach is clearly not for 99% of the people who want to get into a boat. It's likely for someone who doesn't have a boat... or someone who like me wants to sail a bit but not carry the whole responsibility... needs some help.

I have no problem of hiring people do to what I call grunt work... sanding, painting, cleaning/washing/waxing and so on. I have no problem hiring a Refer tech to repair my refer... and so forth. I don't supervise nor micro manage. I do like to do what I can do even if I have to learn new things. Taking care of the boat is an enjoyable part of owning one. Certainly not everyone approaches sailing and boat ownership as I do. That's fine! I am not trying to convert or preach to anyone. I share my experience and learn from others who share their wisdom.

I am spending less time on board than I used to... for a number of reasons beyond my control. This is informing my thinking about sharing the boat until I am not longer willing, wanting or able to spend enough time with her... and I can't afford to just let her sit there.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Interesting thought. If there is any disparity in sweat equity between partners, that’s a high risk of stress. A new owner (partner) is probably going to like to dig in. I know this is being cast as a 1% likelihood anyway, but this part may be zero, unless there is a real financial incentive to the new partner. That flies in the face of getting top dollar.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Interesting thought. If there is any disparity in sweat equity between partners, that's a high risk of stress. A new owner (partner) is probably going to like to dig in. I know this is being cast as a 1% likelihood anyway, but this part may be zero, unless there is a real financial incentive to the new partner. That flies in the face of getting top dollar.


time for some examples....

I have a project list... I know the boat very well obviously. I tend to prioritize what I do and when... often weather plays a factor.

One of the projects which has been on hold for ages was gelcoat repair of scratches... and minor dings. I finally got the gelcoat from a business contact who is in the fiberglass fabrication business. So now I have the gelcoat but will wait for the warm temps needed. I have never done this... I have a sub sole removable dust pan to practice on... don't actually sweep dust into it. And then it's on the the real work. I don't expect anyone coming into the partnership to have gelcoat repair expertise. But I think this is not hard to learn... and easy to share... doing the repairs together

Another project is to re varnish the gloss trim and fiddles and varnish some of the cockpit trim. Another project anyone can learn if they don't know how to do it already.

How about installing new electronics? Wiring is not too difficult (N2K) mounting requires skill. Having run a woodworking shop I imagine I would be the person who would do the joinery required.

How about upgrading wiring? Seems like something anyone intelligent and careful could do once the work was defined and understood.

Bottom painting? I pay the yard or some one to do it. I may oversee a someone... but not the yard. If partner wants to do this. go for it!

I am less concerned about the work than the cost of it. Why would I want to spend $10K for new electronics when my old B&G is working fine? And why should I pay 1/2 if I am exiting a few years after the install? And who decides what gear to buy?

All is up for "negotiation".... like taking a vacation with the wife...


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

In an negotiation usually both parties are equal. Obviously you have an agenda. You’ve stated it. There are projects you have. It’s funny you like I and many of us have learned to sail and repair through our own experiences and mistakes. I would think that many on here did the same. Other than a shakedown cruise I didn’t want the PO on the boat after it was mine. I wanted to start to build my own experience.

I had a boat partnership once. Longtime friends. Still are. We both were equal. I wouldn’t ever agreed to a parental approach. I don’t understand why anyone would accept less

Why others here are skirting around this, and I think Rob did understand the issues or your point of view, I think he was stating what in his opinion was the obvious to him. It seems that the control of this is something you can’t give up. You aren’t looking for an equal to take care of the boat and preserve her, because an equal would have their own agenda . The control you want to have is the money. You aren’t looking for an equal partner.....cause that scenario gives them equal control and decision making. Negotiations take place between equal partners, not one with no equity. 

To find someone who wanted to learn for a number of years from someone older like me.....I just don’t see it. 

Look, I will get to the point physically like you where I can’t find the time, or have diminishing mobility where it’s too much for me on the boat. I can fight this, but the reality is it will occur. I know it seems hard for you to give up something you have done a majority of your life. It will be for me too, but for my heath it will be better for me to do it that way. Do it early enough to have time to do other things with my wife , like RVing or just traveling. 

I owe it to her, and myself to put as much vigor and time into this/ these new directions and interest. 

I am watching a friend ( owns a Sundeer62) retire from a company he built. It was his life. His two sons, in their 40s , have worked there 20 and 25 years. He’s driving them crazy. He can let go. It’s his baby. His emotionally so attached. They recently had an intervention , with me there as a sort of family friend referee. 

What it came down to was they wanted him not around daily anymore. They needed to own it. Basically they told him that if he can’t/ won’t do that, they would move on. He would be forced to sell it then. They love their dad and he loves them. That’s what makes this tough.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

The control thing is an interesting matter. I had dinner with the widow of my best friend... who got me into sailing and their son... Jack. Jack is quite a sailor having worked as a rigger / bosun on several tall ships in MV and the Clearwater. He'a a capable sailor. He's sailed with his dad on Shiva. Tonight he mentioned his father wouldn't let him take their boat out alone.... but needed him to operate the boat in the last year or two they owned it before he was unable to sail at all. Pop just wouldn't give up control or essentially trust his own son.

For sure it would be a while before I felt confident enough in the "new guy" to take the boat out without me. I imagine in the beginning we would sail together and I would have him or her observe how I do things. I am not referring to trimming sails. I don't care if someone is a lousy sailor in that sense. But I can show how to motor the boat on and off a dock... single and short handed. I can teach how to anchor the boat, use the windlass and the snubber and so on.

I just don't know and I have to spend time with the new guy and see how it feels. I know my friend could have taken the boat out whenever he wanted. I completely trusted him... and he's been on the boat over the entire time I owned it. 

Time will tell...


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

You know I hope it works out to the scenario you want it to as it would make you happy. You are a great guy.

Personally I have to move on to do something else. Maybe that’s just easier fOr me to do. Maybe that’s also what is best for my head. I also have to think about my wife as she is a partner in every way with Haleakula. 
Yes we will miss her. We will missing seeing the memories we made on her. But Haleakula is still a boat. 

Sailing doesn’t define me. It has been a huge part of my life, but it is that a part of it. I will still be me and happy, and happy with myself without it. I try and keep things in balance. 

After remarrying after being divorced for 17 years ( married almost 14 now) and finding a real love and partner I know what I feel needs to take priority. It is us for me. Whatever we do...sail....RV....travel....or just be with each other, that the thing I need in my life. Our experiences together are what’s important, not where we are. That is not replaceable like a boat is. 

I don’t have to make these decisions yet. I still hopefully have another 10 years or so. This last year with my back surgery ( which was successful) and my upcoming knee replacement I have had to come to realizations that things out of my control may force a decision. That is why I have though about it. I know at some point this chapter will close, and I am at peace with that and thankful I have had the opportunity to sail so many years. From the competitive to the cruising. 

While I single handed a lot in my early days, Still do occasionally I can tell you the last 15 years of sailing with my wife included have been the best and most fulfilling. When she’s not on the board Something is missing. 

It is cathartic to listen to you and others talk through their thoughts.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

The decision to exit from sailing and boat ownership is complex. I've heard stories of people who stop using their boat, maintaining it because of physical decline... along with diminishing resources. Boat is put on the market and often price slides down and they make a sale usually for less than they expected and are out. My best friend went through this... holding on to his boat... at great expense not using it until it was finally sold. At the end he had a lighting strike which took out instruments and he had to spend a lot of energy fighting the insurance co for the claim and then go through the effort at removing and installing new equipment as a senior in declining health.

As difficult as it is to find the right partner and pull of a slow or extended exit. It may be less painful. It's not for someone who is vigorous and simply decides to ease out. I think this works for someone who faces declining health / stamina whatever and can still sail/own but with increasing difficulty. For me moving to a lesser boat is of no interest. Moving on to RVing is the same. Family commitments prevent me / us from going anywhere for any length of time. Day use and weekend sailing cruising works... maybe a longer cruise. I do think being active is therapeutic and boat ownership is therapeutic in that sense... as well as enjoyable.

Clearing an sale means one has to detach not only physically but emotionally. Is this break made easier by extending it? Or doing as quick as possible clean break? I think the former, but do not know.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> .....Tonight he mentioned his father wouldn't let him take their boat out alone....


Funny thing. My Father never did either. He's in his 80s now and still comes cruising for about a week a year with us. I don't let him take my boat out without me.  All kidding aside, he's not able to anymore.



> For sure it would be a while before I felt confident enough in the "new guy" to take the boat out without me.


I hope, but somewhat doubt, you can find this unicorn that will let you solely decide when they can use the boat they own too. I didn't own my Dad's boat.

Does that sound logical? You want someone to be an owner, a partner, but have no right to use the boat, until they've met your standards? Yikes. An owner has the right to screw it up and the responsibility to fix it. I'm not even sure you can legally restrict their access to their own property. The "new guy", which I assume you wouldn't restrict to being male, might very well volunteer not to go out alone, until they felt comfortable. If they bought half your boat, they'll be the one to decide when they are comfortable.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> ..You want someone to be an owner, a partner, but have no right to use the boat, until they've met your standards? Yikes. An owner has the right to screw it up and the responsibility to fix it. I'm not even sure you can legally restrict their access to their own property. The "new guy", which I assume you wouldn't restrict to being male, might very well volunteer not to go out alone, until they felt comfortable. If they bought half your boat, they'll be the one to decide when they are comfortable.


I don't think you understand how I hope to do this.

Perhaps think of it like this:

Max is thinking he wants to own a nice cruising boat which is in good condition and ready for any sailing, including offshore with the usual prep. He's not quite sure what ownership entails, if he is committed to sailing and doing the boat "all the time" and wants to dip his toes in the water. Chartering does't offer the same experience... other than sailing.

So Max chats me up in on the dock one day in early Spring before season starts and he seems like a nice guy and offers to help out in Spring prep... expecting he will get some sailing time in. If I like Max I might take him up on his offer of help... obviously meaning less work for me... and an opportunity to make a new friend who shares an interest in sailing... even if there is notable asymmetry.

So he helps do the Spring prep... learning all sorts of stuff about my boat and how I do things... Provides labor for grunt work which I needed to find anyway. Departure date comes and Max and I head off to the summer mooring. Now he learns how the boats is sailed... a bit. But... and importantly he is fine company... an interesting guy like Sal, Chef or Minni... or anyone of you nice SN strangers. Wifey was unavailable as she had to do grand daughter duty and was pleased I had company and help. Whether valid or not she IS concerned because she knows I am an old salt... emphasis on OLD. Her concern is safety.

If Max and I get on well... we'll go out sailing again... why not? I enjoy the company and help. If he wants to helm... and can... I don't care because I would use Alison (my AP) If He wants to fly the asym down wind rather than the genny or pole out a genny... go for it. I'll show you how and Max can do the work. I enjoy teaching a bit and enjoy the sailing... just as I do with wifey or alone or with Sal for example.

At some point I begin to think Max is really taking to Shiva like a duck to water. I see his confidence and competence grow. His company is enjoyable.

Is he a needle in a haystack? Maybe. Could I offer Max a partnership? He may not have the cash and won't be able to get a boat mortgage on a partnership. So to make that happen I have to provide the financing. Not a lump sum for me... but maybe not a big deal. Financial terms can be worked out. No his ownership is not vested until he reaches x% if the "sale value"... until that time he is paying as if he is chartering... which converts to equity. Max is OK with the concept. Charters are expensive and he doesn't get to use the boat as frequently... and not in local waters. And he can see if owning and cruising a "decent boat" in local waters is for him. Perhaps the first season or more allows him or me to exit the deal. You don't get your money back after a charter.

If this works... Max and I sail together... and Max soon sails without me... Why not?

Maybe a pipe dream.... but not impossible.






To dream the impossible dream
To fight the unbeatable foe
To bear with unbearable sorrow
To run where the brave dare not go

To right the unrightable wrong
To be better far than you are
To try when your arms are too weary
To reach the unreachable star

This is my quest, to follow that star
No matter how hopeless, no matter how far
To be willing to give when there's no more to give 
To be willing to die so that honor and justice may live 
And I know if I'll only be true to this glorious quest
That my heart will lie peaceful and calm when I'm laid to my rest

And the world will be better for this
That one man, scorned and covered with scars,
Still strove with his last ounce of courage
To reach the unreachable star


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I got it. Trading labor for sailing time is very doable. Not what the majority want, but you'd find someone. 

Once you take their money, the program crumbles. If you take their money, like it was still a charter, then you work for them and must work to please them or refund them. With due respect, it doesn't sound like you're up to it. It's on you to make it work, as you're the one profiting. Otherwise, if they are buying in as an owner or partner, they get to use the boat they paid for, when they feel they are ready.

Simply put, you can't take someone's money and retain all the power. That's the only flaw in your logic, otherwise.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I got it. Trading labor for sailing time is very doable. Not what the majority want, but you'd find someone.
> 
> Once you take their money, the program crumbles. If you take their money, like it was still a charter, then you work for them and must work to please them or refund them. With due respect, it doesn't sound like you're up to it. It's on you to make it work, as you're the one profiting. Otherwise, if they are buying in as an owner or partner, they get to use the boat they paid for, when they feel they are ready.
> 
> Simply put, you can't take someone's money and retain all the power. That's the only flaw in your logic, otherwise.


No.... you don't get it. Nothing to do with all or some of the power.

No it's not on ME to make it work... it's on BOTH to make it work. It's meant to be win win. I don't see it as "profiting" as I am over time conveying the ownership. Where is the profit? I suppose if you think you profit when you sell a boat???

I suspect the new guy would be prudent and not simply ask for the keys... but what until he feels confident and competent and has demonstrated this. I wouldn't give YOU, Minni the keys until I felt you knew the boat well enough. I know you know how to sail. I would take your boat at without "training".

+++

If you want to discuss the financial model... that fine. For example... what happens if the partners don't want to finish the deal? Are the initial payments refundable? in part or in full? These are what I need to explore. I don't want to "trade" sailing for boat work. But that is not a bad idea per se. I want to leave the boat in the future... and not use it less and less and less continuing to pay...


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> No.... you don't get it. Nothing to do with all or some of the power.
> 
> No it's not on ME to make it work... it's on BOTH to make it work. It's meant to be win win. I don't see it as "profiting" as I am over time conveying the ownership. Where is the profit? I suppose if you think you profit when you sell a boat???
> 
> ...


With due respect I agree with Minni. Like i said before it's a control issue.
If you want a friend to go sailing that's one thing. When it involves money/ ownership it's another. Even on a charter I don't have to ask permission or meet someone else's standard

While you do have lots of experience, and I admire what you have done, that may not be as important to a younger potential boat owner. You see on here all the time the newbies who want to by a boat with no experience and sail to Grenada and further. Once money changes hands the relationship changes. It's business then. Your not the mentor then, you are the co-owner. Giving you money gives me rights. Not all of my rights are conveyed in a legal contract. There is a psychology too.

If I'm giving you money, I would want not only to have a say but to take the boat when you didn't or couldn't. I fear you'll have a tough time dealing with that. Tat day will come more quickly for them and you. I think it will be extremely hard for you to let completely go. Damn near impossible for you to be a minority partner on a boat which is your baby. He / she will have to pry it from you. Understand that quickly this person will want to go out sailing with who they want to bring aboard. Their family, their wives, their friends. You are not part of that. They may want to race her. They are giving you money....that changes everything.

If you want to find a friend to trade sweat equity for sailing time that's a great way for you to still get out as you physical skills wane.

You seem to want to control that also. Suppose someone like me comes along and just wants to buy Shiva. She fits most of my criteria . You wouldn't sell it to me outright, holding out for the needle in a haystack?
You are setting all the criteria here ( that's about control) . You have that right, it's your boat.....but that's the point. It's your boat. I hope you are not setting yourself up. My friend the day approaches when the time comes to let go.

Not many rookies start out looking for 35 footers. You'll get play from people with boats looking to move up in size I think. They won't be able to afford a new 35 footer, appreciate the build quality to purchase a 30+ year old boat,


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Dave.... of the bites I've had and they all are interesting people as far as I can tell... none of them has a boat... I think... or when / if they do/did it was a small day sailer and they may have chartered. This deal will not appeal to move up in size people. Correct.

If some one made me an offer I could't refuse I wouldn't refuse. That's even more fantasy!

++++

Possessiveness and control is not love. Actually I have no problem with a partnership. I got into sailing because / when my best friend who was a sailor asked me ...a total non sailor.... to partner on a 48' boat. After I stopped laughing and had seen the boat and read a bunch of books including boat partnerships... I agreed. His then girlfriend killed the deal because she said you can share a boat... she's was gone from his life but I remained. We sailed together thousands of miles and had great times and I trusted him completely when he was on board... to me it was a relief, a respite and even a period to completely relax sailing Shiva.

I don't see control as much an issue as the timing of a transition.. from sole owner to boatless.

You can disagree as much as you want and I appreciate the comments. Keep them coming.

Having said that... I'd like to read more positive ones than the ones throwing cold water on the idea. Obviously this is not common.... but not impossible. If you can imagine it... you likely can do it.


----------



## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

I thought we all traded boat work for sailing....


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

You may get what you wanted but you lose what you had.


----------



## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

I think the "long transition partnership" idea is perfectly do-able.

Just that it will require you to subsidize the arrangement, will not extract anything close to your idea of "fair value" in cash payout, that requires a clean sale.

Choose one or the other approach, won't get both


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

john61ct said:


> I think the "long transition partnership" idea is perfectly do-able.
> 
> Just that it will require you to subsidize the arrangement, will not extract anything close to your idea of "fair value" in cash payout, that requires a clean sale.
> 
> Choose one or the other approach, won't get both


Doesn't matter what the "name" of this process is. What matters is it meets the needs of someone with a boat who wants to slow down their use - sailing, care and costs... and a person who wants to ramp up the sailing time, care and costs can find a common ground.

NB there are all manner of "relationships" out there person, business and time share and on and on. Sure... most boats are individually owned. But they don't have to be and most sales are instant transfers from one owner to another... but it doesn't have to be.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Dave.... of the bites I've had and they all are interesting people as far as I can tell... none of them has a boat... I think... or when / if they do/did it was a small day sailer and they may have chartered. This deal will not appeal to move up in size people. Correct.
> 
> If some one made me an offer I could't refuse I wouldn't refuse. That's even more fantasy!
> 
> ...


Sorry if it seemed I was throwing cold water. I Will put the negatives in check. I really hope you get what you want . Shiva deserves a good second owner . Hope this works out for you too.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> No.... you don't get it. Nothing to do with all or some of the power.


I'll admit, I said power to get your attention. I'm sure that isn't your style. However, if you're going to retain the final say on when your new partner gets the keys themselves, they will most certainly view it as power.



> I don't see it as "profiting" as I am over time conveying the ownership. Where is the profit? I suppose if you think you profit when you sell a boat???


You mentioned something to the effect of the new partner's payments being charter compensation, until they bought the boat. That's profit to the owner and an expectation of service. I think it's not what you're looking for.



> I suspect the new guy would be prudent and not simply ask for the keys... but what until he feels confident and competent and has demonstrated this.


I would hope you're right, but no two people ever see things exactly the same. That's human. How is this going to be decided?

I think you'll find it very hard to find someone to split expenses and/or pay for part ownership, unless they decide when they're ready.

In any event, you should think about exactly how this would be defined in your partnership agreement.

Another factor is the insurance company. They will have a say in when they're ready to take on liability for your new partner.



> If you want to discuss the financial model... that fine. For example... what happens if the partners don't want to finish the deal? Are the initial payments refundable? in part or in full? These are what I need to explore. I don't want to "trade" sailing for boat work. But that is not a bad idea per se. I want to leave the boat in the future... and not use it less and less and less continuing to pay...


See that "refundable in part" thinking? That's revenue to you, if not actually profit.

Here's a straw man.

Your new partner puts 50% of the value of the boat in escrow. Perhaps they make installment payment. You can't touch it.

Each party has responsibility for 50% of all operating expenses. You'll have to think about how you'd handle damage.

After a defined amount of time passes, the new partner either needs to pay the rest or the boat is sold to a third party.

During that defined period, either party has the right to walk and the new partner gets the entire escrow back. It would probably be fair that you refund a proportional amount of prepaid expenses, such as mooring fees or insurance, for the reminder of the unused period.

If you want to hold the escrow, so the new partner has something at risk, you need to negotiate a forced sale scenario. If either wants the partnership to end, the boat is appraised and listed with a broker. Offers within 5% of appraised value, must be accepted. If you don't want to sell, give the escrow back immediately. Hate to say it, but you need to define a scenario where either partner dies too.

You can argue that you'd be entitled to some of the escrow for wear and tear, but I think that would kill the deal. If you want this transition, I think it will cost you some risk and some wear and tear. If the engine is blown along the way, they will walk and leave you with the mess. That's the price you are paying for not selling outright.

I think the escrow is all that should be paid up front. Once the new partner qualifies to take the boat out themselves, at will, they have to pay their portion of the incurred expenses first. This way, they have nothing at risk, until they really have a boat of their own.


----------



## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

I doubt there are many that would go along with any sort of deal like this, that have that sort of lump sum to just lay down up front.

Could be years of servicing the boat and the owner, and that's only going to attract an underfunded wannabe with stars in their eyes

I think OP retains ownership, the "escrow" gets built up by sweat equity (deferred wages) and pretty low monthly deposits, in the end the boat gets transferred heavily subsidized due to a good relationship, extending the sailing pleasure for those years, knowing the boat's properly appreciated and in good hands.

If either wants to terminate the deal, whatever reason, or OP decides to sell at "market" price, the wannabe gets the escrow saved up, was fairly compensated for services rendered, training accrued making up for disappointment losing the boat.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

The terms will follow once the right guys shows interest. I am not there yet.


----------



## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

I wish you well SanderO in this effort to find someone to share your boat, but I will be very surprised if you succeed. It's hard enough to sell a 30+ old used boat today. There have been a couple of boat sharing groups in my yacht club, but they were among friends who knew each other beforehand. Even so, I am aware of some problems that resulted in partners leaving the sharing arrangement.


----------



## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

I had a partnership on a boat years ago. It worked out great! But, we were lifelong friends. ( and still are ;-) ) 3 equal shares in the boat and all the expenses. We drew up a pretty inclusive partnership agreement and had it notarized. Not sure how well it would have held up in court if there was a dispute, but there was none so it never came to that. As family circumstances changed, I purchased the other two shares, one at at time, and owned the boat outright. Then, eventually sold the boat back to one of my former partners for the price we paid for it. 

Just thinking out loud: I wonder if you could set up a " Sailing club" using your vessel. Members pay a flat fee each year, say $2,000. You decide after checking them out, ( skills) who is capable of captaining the boat when you are not aboard. You would be captain # 1. 
Non Captain members, can sail only with a captain, until they are checked out. The boat is always for Sale. You set up a calendar, the captains indicate the days that they will be available to sail, and crew members sign on. Doing something like that may lead to developing the kind of relationship/ transfer of ownership that you're looking for. Of course, giving up the reins a little is a big step.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

tempest said:


> I had a partnership on a boat years ago. It worked out great! But, we were lifelong friends. ( and still are ;-) ) 3 equal shares in the boat and all the expenses. We drew up a pretty inclusive partnership agreement and had it notarized. Not sure how well it would have held up in court if there was a dispute, but there was none so it never came to that. As family circumstances changed, I purchased the other two shares, one at at time, and owned the boat outright. Then, eventually sold the boat back to one of my former partners for the price we paid for it.
> 
> Just thinking out loud: I wonder if you could set up a " Sailing club" using your vessel. Members pay a flat fee each year, say $2,000. You decide after checking them out, ( skills) who is capable of captaining the boat when you are not aboard. You would be captain # 1.
> Non Captain members, can sail only with a captain, until they are checked out. The boat is always for Sale. You set up a calendar, the captains indicate the days that they will be available to sail, and crew members sign on. Doing something like that may lead to developing the kind of relationship/ transfer of ownership that you're looking for. Of course, giving up the reins a little is a big step.


What an interesting idea!

Before I reply.... I want to thank all who comment on this thread. It's all helpful!

++++

Any sort of "time sharing" arrangement for this boat would need:

Thoroughly competent skippers... not only related to sailing... sailing seems to be a skill many have though not all have finessed all the fine points and full spectrum (heavy weather, racing etc.). I am thinking about dealing with "failures"... which we don't want to happened... but being prepared for them is a better than winging it. ;-)

Sharers who also share expenses and care... including physical work and cost of parts and so on. Without lowering my ownership costs and maintenance obligations a sharing arrangement wouldn't work for me. Organizing the maintenance could be a problem but may not be much of one... unless a sort of "emergency" need arises... which needs quickie attention.... for example... water pump goes south... floods the bilge and has to be de-watered and then a new pump installed. We know stuff breaks and always at the wrong time.

I don't see why this couldn't work... everyone has to be on the same page with the same level of commitment.


----------



## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

You're bearing all the costs and time of ownership and maintenance yourself now. A membership fee, would offset the financial costs somewhat. As far as the maintenance goes, you might not get all the members to pitch-in for bottom painting varnish etc. But you could try to organize spring launch, and fall decommission parties where you buy dinner after the work is done. If you get no takers, you at least have some cash flow to pay the yard if you choose. 

In my former partnership, we shared much of the " work". It was "Boys" day out, and included a Lobster or Steak Dinner at the end of the day. We always had a " last sail of the season day" When after the sail, the sails were stripped the engine winterized etc. ready for haul out, then a nice dinner somewhere. 

In the mean time, you can always list the boat for sale, it doesn't cost anything to do that. I listed mine this year, I expect it could take years to sell, even if i set a low ball price. The market just isn't that strong for 30 + year old boats.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

tempest said:


> You're bearing all the costs and time of ownership and maintenance yourself now. A membership fee, would offset the financial costs somewhat. As far as the maintenance goes, you might not get all the members to pitch-in for bottom painting varnish etc. But you could try to organize spring launch, and fall decommission parties where you buy dinner after the work is done. If you get no takers, you at least have some cash flow to pay the yard if you choose.
> 
> In my former partnership, we shared much of the " work". It was "Boys" day out, and included a Lobster or Steak Dinner at the end of the day. We always had a " last sail of the season day" When after the sail, the sails were stripped the engine winterized etc. ready for haul out, then a nice dinner somewhere.
> 
> In the mean time, you can always list the boat for sale, it doesn't cost anything to do that. I listed mine this year, I expect it could take years to sell, even if i set a low ball price. The market just isn't that strong for 30 + year old boats.


Your right....there are many used sailboats for sale.

Here is a Contest in great shape For 49 K. Newer 2010 Yanmar engine with 1100 hrs. Very well equipped.

https://www.boats.com/sailing-boats/1985-contest-36s-7018738/?refSource=enhanced listing

Not sure what he thinks his boat is worth after taking out the emotional components as a buyer will strictly be looking at $ vs condition vs comps of Contests vs what that amount he wants means if they wish to go to another larger well made boat. I think he's banking on someone who doesn't have the money to buy the boat outright themself.

Selling a hope for ownership will be interesting to see if someone bites on that.

I don't think a partnership for Jeff will work as the partners would demand equal rights and say. He says he wants skilled sailors on the other hand he wants to " teach" them from his experience. Others who bring a skill set in may chafe at being forced into a certain profile.


----------



## KayakerChuck (May 4, 2017)

I'd love to find an arrangement such as this. I'd love to have a mentor to guide me in the ways of his boat, especially one who has poured lots of thought, sweat, and money into a particular boat. 

I passed on a similar opportunity a handful of years ago. One of the guys at the marina thought he was getting too old to not be a hazard to others. I passed due to family obligations. Those obligations have sapped my re$ource$, so I'll continue to mess around in my little 22 O'Day.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> I don't think a partnership for Jeff will work as the partners would demand equal rights and say. He says he wants skilled sailors on the other hand he wants to " teach" them from his experience. Others who bring a skill set in may chafe at being forced into a certain profile.


NO I don't want to teach anyone to sail. I want to instruct them in all the intricacies of this boat which would be very different from the listen one... which still has a lot of OEM stuff on it.

Why do you presume I will force someone into some profile (mine). One of the things I like when I have another sailor on board is to learn things from them. Hell yes!


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Regardless of the type of partnership or relationship... there has to be a courtship period where the parties get to know each other. During courtship the only commitment is to continue the courtship as long no red flags appear. That may be the sign to end the courtship. Experience people know that you can't expect to get everything you want and will have to make compromises. Each person will decide what and when to comprise about.

I have had a driving license since about 17 and thought (mistakenly) that everyone would want to have a license and the privilege to drive. Not my wife. So I had to decide if this was a deal breaker. It wasn't but I didn't even learn this until some time into the relationship. So it's wise to know what are deal breaker issues maybe even more than deal maker ones!

One of the issues we deal with are maintenance and capital improvements projects. If one is exiting ownership spending on big ticket items may not make sense. What to do? I am thinking about a navigation electronics upgrade in this example. My equipment is working fine. But it's old and many of the items no longer have mfg support. When they fail it means replacement and likely replacement of a bunch of gear. I have designed engineered and priced out the upgrade without installation labor which I would do. So the N2k upgrade when priced would be $8,000 with AIS B. The install would /could keep the boat "out of operation" for maybe a week or two... depending on many things... including installing the AWI on top of the mast (at a boat yard). It makes sense to do this during winter storage and do the AWI install when the boat goes to the yard for a haul out and bottom job. So do I do this project 2019-2020 winter store? or wait a year and hope nothing fails in the sailing season? And if it does YUCK...PITA. 20-21 might work better for the slow exit... because it seems unlikely a deal would be closed this winter. 

Of course if I were to simply sell the boat.... I would leave this upgrade to the next owner... which is something I presume often happens with "older boats". Selling is easy... not finding a buyer... but easy out.


----------



## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

If you've got an extra 8 grand to spend, to upgrade the electronics, go ahead and make the boat the way you want it. However, I suspect that you can sail your home waters with your eyes closed though. And, your current array is working fine, So, is an upgrade really needed at this time, when you''re trying to figure things out. 

If you still own the boat when the current systems fail, then that would be the time for decision making.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Not sure what you are buying for your upgrade but $8000 is really high.

I have a Raymarine mfd with digital radar, esper AIS, raymarine wind/ depth/ speed, raymarine autopilot, standard horizon vhf with a remote. All reading off an NMEA 2000 backbone

Total cost less than $5000 a couple years ago.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> Not sure what you are buying for your upgrade but $8000 is really high.
> 
> I have a Raymarine mfd with digital radar, esper AIS, raymarine wind/ depth/ speed, raymarine autopilot, standard horizon vhf with a remote. All reading off an NMEA 2000 backbone
> 
> Total cost less than $5000 a couple years ago.


Here is the N2K system I priced out. Yes I could not have 4 Triton2s maybe 3 or 2 or even 1...

I have NOT (correction) shopped or looked for deals... I looked up the prices online.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Here is the N2K system I priced out. Yes I could not have 4 Triton2s maybe 3 or 2 or even 1...
> 
> I have shopped or looked for deals... I looked up the prices online.


4 displays wow.

You can get good deals on MFD and digital radar prices....you just have to look carefully. Cheapest is around Christmas.

You can usually get a Garmin/ Raymarine combo for less than $3000- 9-12 inch display. The Vesper 800 runs $580.

I installed all of our electronics. The backbone and most of the electronics is plug and play.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> 4 displays wow.
> 
> You can get good deals on MFD and digital radar prices....you just have to look carefully. Cheapest is around Christmas.
> 
> ...


Not interested in raymarine or garmin... prices are from Defender

I have 4 displays because I like separate LARGE displays for boat speed, depth, wind angle and wind speed. The MFDs have dual line or more but text is smaller. As I said I could do maybe 2 or 3.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

First you need to ask yourself who you are upgrading the navigation instruments for. You, to attract a partner, or so that she's attractive to sell. 

You'd have to admit it will be hard to attract a partner and perhaps a buyer that is staring down an $8k electronics upgrade in the very immediate future. It's really not fair either, unless that cost is fully removed from value.

If selling or partnering is your near term path, I'd upgrade more efficiently and not be as insistent on your personal preferences or idiosyncracies, rather do what the mainstream market would want.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> First you need to ask yourself who you are upgrading the navigation instruments for. You, to attract a partner, or so that she's attractive to sell.
> 
> You'd have to admit it will be hard to attract a partner and perhaps a buyer that is staring down an $8k electronics upgrade in the very immediate future. It's really not fair either, unless that cost is fully removed from value.
> 
> If selling or partnering is your near term path, I'd upgrade more efficiently and not be as insistent on your personal preferences or idiosyncracies, rather do what the mainstream market would want.


Stop making assumptions!

I am not insistent on my upgrades. I am aware of everything which needs immediate, near term and long term attention. I plan ahead when possible. So I have a very reliable and totally workable nav electronics package including a not too old B&G Zeus7 which I don't see discarding.... a transducer, a KVH compass and several VHF radios. I planned the nav electronics I would do... the only way I could do this now. The future will likely mean a different upgrade.

It's not uncommon as far as I can tell for a new owner to get a boat with out of date nav electronics and to change them out. In fact most new owners seem to take pride in this. But I am most certainly no presenting them with a fait acomplis... my way or the highway. And things like AIS or Radar can be added to the network... or addition displays and so on. Don't need a 2nd MFD because the one I have is N2K and could be the "server" with chart display. ( I happen to like one plotter above and one below decks) But nowadays you can turn your mobile device to a "repeater" of the MFD I believe.

Please not my "upgrades" are based on my experience... the only experience I can really call on... some advice of others and the boat they need to be fitted to... which I know better than the buyer or the electronics dealer. But yeah... there are may ways to skin a cat. Do you think it makes more sense to seal my lips as the new partner figures out what electronics make sense?


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

If you stuff is currently working fine and is enough for you I'd stay put. Any money you put into updating will not really be recoverable. I think you are right a new owner would probably update to what their preferences were after sailing it for a while . Sinking $8,000 into your 36 year old boat which by the comps ( the highest I've seen asking price is $50,000 with a relatively new engine, pictures show well and many updates) Is 18% of the value of the boat.

If you were going to continue to sail the boat for many more years in a traveling mode, I'd say it's worth it. If you are just weekend sailing on the Sound area, I'd say not necessary. You've done well with what you have to this point and even though older technology , your stuff works fine.

I don't believe a new electronics package will entice a seller as you said yourself most expect to add on their own preferred electronics.

https://www.boats.com/sailing-boats/1985-contest-36s-7018738/?refSource=enhanced listing

Any scenario you can find or work out which allows you to continue to sail for the time being is a good one for you, as you clearly are not ready to move on away from Shiva yet. I would concentrate on those individuals. That's a win for you.

Maybe from that group the perfect person may appear. If it doesn't you will still get get to sail. Keep your boat and enjoy your time on the water. When the time comes to let go.....either by health or by ability, you can sell her. Mother Nature has a way of having her/ his own timetable.

For me I will get out before forced to and find time to devote to my many other interests.

I will make a clean break. I don't think I could go through deteriorating physical ability to sail. That would weigh on me psychologically. I have owned Haleakula a very long time. We have emotional attachments to her as you do to Shiva. They make it hard for me to objective to the " real worth" of her. Buyers will look in terms of metrics ( conndition, comps other similar boats) when offering a price. They will look at any discussions of my upgrades and what I have been with no relation to the $ they are paying. They don't care what she has been upgraded from....nor where she has been as those are not the metrics they are using when purchasing.

And to be honest with you, I don't really care what happens to Haleakula after she's not mine, as I will have psychologically moved on to my next pursuit. I will still have my memories and experiences long after she's someone else's. Many of us have already had to sell a boat to move up to the next size or even downsize. 
The emotional attachment to an inanimate object is something we may have dealt with already. By your history, you haven't so this will emotionally be difficult on its own. Tying that to another emotional aspect of defining skill may be difficult.

I've had friends go into depressions on just that issue alone in their lives. Declining abilities and skills are a tough psychological nut for even the boldest and bravest of type A's.

I actually am contemplating and looking into in my semi retirement working with people using my masters in psychology in a group practice and specializing in retirement issues. Retirement meaning a job or from things like sailing or activities.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Dave this was a very very good post.
Of course if it ain't broke don't fix it. The electronics thing is quite variable but the next iteration will be a N2K system... that's a given. Do I need AIS B? no.... a new radar if I am mostly fair weather local sailing? no... and so on.

I am quite able to sail and only slightly impaired getting around the boat. But most of my sailing is not challenging these days and I am sitting and the AP steers and windlass lifts chain and Millie hoists the main. Single handing is not prudent. Wifey is fine... a sailor would be better for some things. I think you can understand.

I don't know the value and have no illusions about it. I do know that some sister ships don't have some of the upgrades I have done and I am not referring to electronics. The value will be what a buyer will pay... and what I agree to accept. Once I don't own the boat I will likely be relieved of the obligations of ownership.... and yes miss sailing... but sailing as "able bodied". A wise person knows when it's time to not do something which they are no longer capable of doing it.

Right now I have to go to the boat to change a gauge!


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> Stop making assumptions!
> 
> I am not insistent on my upgrades. I am aware of everything which needs immediate, near term and long term attention.


I'm really not sure what you think I assumed. I'm reacting to your posts. $8k in upgrades, not going to be Ray or Garmin, I recall you've said you won't integrated the auto pilot. Some of these are not decisions I'd make if I was looking to have the most attractive boat to sell. I only suggested you get clearer on what you're doing and why. Keeping and selling are two completely different motivations for upgrading electronics.



> ....But yeah... there are may ways to skin a cat. Do you think it makes more sense to seal my lips as the new partner figures out what electronics make sense?


I was about to say, of course not. Then I realized the right answer is yes. Unless the new owner cares about your advice, you should not disturb the deal with it. No two people see things the same and not everyone will care how you see it. I'm not intending to be mean or confrontational, just real. If they ask, have at it. If you're only interested in a transitional partner, you'll need to find the unicorn who is willing to defer to your preferences.

Like the post I made already said, first decide if the upgrades are for you, to attract a partner or to sell. I don't think you can serve all masters. It sounds like your boat is worth somewhere between $30k-$50k. Lot's of buyers/partners aren't going to have much left or consider it a good value to buy a boat that needs $8k in electronics and would not have an integrated AP. That's just intended to be helpful advice, you can take it or leave it.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

most of the younger sailors and newbies are not AP sailors. That is a cruising style going on long tacks or a compromise IMHO to age and mobility. 

I prefer to have the wheel in my hands unless on a long trip. I prefer to steer the boat and feel the boat
Not just be a passenger. Those are my wife’s comments when she’s at the helm. I have asked her why she doesn’t us the AP and Thebes above is her response. Sailing and control of the boat let’s you feel her power as she says. 

I think of my days as a sailor . I was always a weekend sailor or coastal sailor. I loved being at the helm. Still do. I am not a sit under the Dodger person. As a cruiser which I have done that would be different. If I couldn’t be actively involved in course changes, sail adjustment, steering iId 
Probably give up now. We sail differently is my point. 

I am saying that as you look for a compatible person. Teaching them to be an AP sailor goes against my grain. May also go against some of the thrill new sailors experience at the helm. 

That’s what makes it exciting for my wife at the helm. She’s in charge.....instantaneous movements of Haleakula she controls.

We usually go 25 nm one way most weekends
That’s generally a 4-6 hours at the helm. I find that still easy to do. If I was motoring , we like most PB I probably use the AP more.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

guys fir digs sake. I am not forcing anyone to sail my way... I drove the boat enough to know that standing at helm is only for when I need to be there or I want to because it's fun. I can't tack when I am at the helm so I use Allison. It's a small helm... no button presses to change course... it has a mini steering wheel compass dial for steering. The wheel is marked and I can see when it's balanced or has weather helm.

I am sure beyond a shadow of a doubt someone new to the boat is going to want to steer... unless we are going 80 miles down the Sound. I did the Marion Bermuda and we hand steered and were not allowed to use GPS. Racers will hand steer. I get it. I might take the helm in close proximity to other boats.

Hey Minni.... I am experienced... 35 years with a 36' boat. Give me the keys for your boat for the weekend. How bout that?

A complex boat needs to be taught to anyone. And I am not talking trimming the sails.

I see no reason to invest to attract a buyer. Let them do the changes they want when I am not in the deal. If they find my approach doesn't work for them they can then change to whatever the want to do. Maybe I need to check them out on some stuff... like anchoring... coming on and off a dock. The rest of operating the boat and navigating is up to them.

Gotta go.


----------



## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

SanderO, I have a friend who just sold his boat, after over 30 years of ownership. It was a boat he had built. He had many adventures on it. Some pretty important life events happened on it. He was a mentor for me when I first started cruising. His advice still impacts the way I sail today. Great guy.

It was very hard for him. The boat represented more than just a thing, sailing was a big part of who he is. It isn't love of an inanimate object, but it's more about identity. Important stuff. But situations involving health, age and personal life pushed him to stop. When he first started talking about it, I convinced him to wait a year, afraid he'd regret it. After 2 years of being consistent in his point of view, I encouraged him to proceed and he did. He's adjusted to the new life, in fact called me to talk about what a relief it was not to be preparing his boat for the fall storms we've had.

Life goes on. Sailing is just part of anyone's identity. Sometimes on this site, you could get convinced it's all that matters. You could even get convinced if you choose the wrong anchor, your life will end up in shambles. You could get convince that the wrong crimps will destroy you. You could get convinced that there's only one way to sell a boat. It's just a set of opinions on relatively minor stuff. 

Do what works for you.

Hope you find a way to navigate through this. Life is short, make the most of every minute.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> .....Hey Minni.... I am experienced... 35 years with a 36' boat. Give me the keys for your boat for the weekend. How bout that?......


I do not follow the point you are trying to make, but it's clear you're trying to be rude. My feedback was all constructive, even if you disagree or don't want to hear it.

Good luck from here out. I think you'll need it.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

My friend you will not like what I am about to say I fear. We have met and broken bread and I think very highly about you.

*



A complex boat needs to be taught to anyone.

Click to expand...

*- SanderO

Says who......I totally disagree. My 35 footer is not complex or complicated. That's a way of keeping control. My boat....my rules.....More like your boat needs to be taught by you and have your approval that I am competent to have it.

That's ok if your sailing MY ( your own ) boat, that's expected somewhat ....but a totally different psychological meaning to someone you want to be a partner or co-owner.

Most of us had " on the job training" with our boats. 
Most of us made mistakes as we " learned " on the job from with no one pointing them out or being critical. 
Most of us had the freedom to make mistakes/ adjustments with out someone criticizing or critiquing them

No one died on my boat while I learned. 
The boat didn't get hurt or damaged. 
It wasn't so complex or so complicated I needed someone to teach me. 
I didn't even have then an internet to look things up

When I wanted to learn sail trim ( the complex technical part of sailing) I sailed with others racing or took a seasoned sailor with me while I asked the questions. When I wanted to learn about diesels I took a Mac Boring class. Navigation...I took I class from an EXPERT.

If you want the successful transition you seek, the control / paternal attitude must be held in check. If you want the person to become your equal, you treat them that way from the jump. Wait for them to ask....if they do. Treat them like a novice having to pass your scrutiny...you'll be disappointed I think and that's not what you really want.

I've had a lot of experience mentoring younger managers ( over 100) over the last 20 years. I was their boss ultimately. But that's no way to teach. You are the owner, but passing a standard they must jump over is not an effective way of teaching. The most effective way I found is to let them ask me rather than have a checklist they must learn. Managing people is far more complex than a 35 foot sailboat.

Ultimately the reason for your passion and control is that Shiva is YOUR sailboat. She has been your passion for 30+ years. You've put much sweat equity in her. You've lived in her. She has carried you on many many fantastic adventures. You have a strong bond with the boat.....along with a strong bond for sailing. One is toward an inanimate object, the other toward an ethereal concept. To expect that your change in Shiva is not relaxed and may be difficult for you is understandable. Having passion for what you do is what makes you excel at it.

I put myself through college on a soccer scholarship and working in restaurants. 6 years and two masters degrees later ( psychology and poly sci) I decided to follow my passion ( food) and went exit stage right and became a chef. Because of that passion eventually the Exec Chef of a Casino. However......I had to make a change in my 40s . Twenty years on my feet meant that. I couldn't keep that pace into my 50 / 60.

My passion was food. But......I had to go from that. It was VERY difficult. Emotional, I started a second career. 
What I found is my passion for food never died. But I found another passion.....developing younger managers . 
Through that I had other Passions. My daughter, my wife , sailing. Still giving up what I was comfortable doing for many years and switching gears was difficult. Like you I see changes in my future.

Maybe that's what you face now. I see it in my future too as I trail you by only 6 years. I see a back operation like yours. I see a knee replacement in 3 weeks. I see where a nap is not just a neat thing....but a good thing and more frequent. I see I am very slowly slowing down. I'm not depressed by it at all , I expected it....I am aging gracefully in place. Because of that I EMBRACE the changes going forward. Will this happen gracefully or will you be forced kicking and screaming. I usually prefer Grace, if I can plan for it.

The younger sailors reading all this make think we are wining about aging....not so, just talking about it. After all it happens to EVERYBODY.

Always you friend on the Chessie?


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

capecodda said:


> SanderO, I have a friend who just sold his boat, after over 30 years of ownership. It was a boat he had built. He had many adventures on it. Some pretty important life events happened on it. He was a mentor for me when I first started cruising. His advice still impacts the way I sail today. Great guy.
> 
> It was very hard for him. The boat represented more than just a thing, sailing was a big part of who he is. It isn't love of an inanimate object, but it's more about identity. Important stuff. But situations involving health, age and personal life pushed him to stop. When he first started talking about it, I convinced him to wait a year, afraid he'd regret it. After 2 years of being consistent in his point of view, I encouraged him to proceed and he did. He's adjusted to the new life, in fact called me to talk about what a relief it was not to be preparing his boat for the fall storms we've had.
> 
> ...


Well said?


----------



## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Taking the emotional part out of it.

Put the boat on the Market, set what you think is a fair price, and accept a fair offer. It doesn't cost you anything to do that.

Post some ads in the local yacht clubs for a sailing partner (s) . w/ eventual ownership a possibility.

Start a sailing club using your boat, charge admission. Vet the members yourself.

In the meantime, Keep sailing and doing what you do, until you can't or don't want to do it anymore.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I do not follow the point you are trying to make, but it's clear you're trying to be rude. My feedback was all constructive, even if you disagree or don't want to hear it.
> 
> Good luck from here out. I think you'll need it.


I am not trying to be rude. I am trying to make a few points. Among them is I know the 36s better than anyone probably even the Dick Zaal the designer, who has referred new owners to me for help... as has the dealer in CT.

I have made many upgrades.. some such as electronics have gone thru multiple iterations as technology evolved. I use an AP because I need to be free to do many other things on board when under way. Sal who comes to sail with me loves to drive. I don't tell him not to. He recently got an AP for his boat and now loves it. Go figure. When set up the AP I got a recommended one which has proven to be extremely reliable. I don't think they had APs driven by GPS back then... if so it was new. I don't make many turns... the AP can hold the bow to the eye of the wind for raising and lowering sails. I can't do both. A gps AP won't point the boat to the wind. But I can do that very easily. Tacking is intuitive... I turn the dial about 120 deg and the deal with the sheets and finally adjust the AP to a course and angle to the wind I want/need to be.

I tweak the AP according to the wind angle and observe the boat speed changes which reports to .01 precision. Or a trim and use the BS indicator to find the optimal trim. On long tacks of multiple miles I usually relax and watch or do something.

If I want to steer to some waypoint which is usually a buoy I use the heading line on the plotter in the cockpit or on the smart phone to tell me when the boat is steering to the waypoint. I periodically review as I course correct or trim.

All of this works for me on this boat. Others may have a different approach and if the boat is theirs they can do what they want. Why should I replace an AP which works perfectly well? Or the other electronics? Some is networked on NEMA 183, some doesn't network as it's too old...speed, depth and wind data.

I will occasionally enter a destination waypoint so I can tell the wifey what the GPS thinks we should arrive.

I do understand that the instruments that are old working properly cannot be on a network and one day will fail and a N2K network will be installed. I priced out what I would do.... next owner can do whatever they want and probably like doing the project.

If I found a person who wants to slow transition... he may decide he wants to upgrade and get my help installing including joinery and wiring. I will not pay full cost, but will pay some fraction because I will be using them for a few years. That is completely reasonable.

This is not rocket science and there is no power tripping. Yes I have developed ways to do things over the years... and they work well... and I can teach them to the partner or he can figure it out himself. Two sailors will cooperate... not fight. Sal has sailed on Shiva and it's a delight to have his help and company. He be a great partner but he really needs to move up to his own bigger boat.

I can say one thing with certainty... I would not want to take on a new boat and do all the upgrades I did to this boat over the first years and after that... all by myself:

Install Lorans, plotters, Weatherfac, SSB, inverters, chargers, 3 AGM batteries, switches, solar, charge controllers, smart regulators, high output alternator, engine drive refrig/frzer, forced air cabin heat, new head, assorted joinery, teak for cockpit seats, teak grates for cockpit sole and shower, new water, sump and bilge pumps and plumbing, deck wash pump, new, new uphostery, sunbrella cockpit, ushions and pillows, reversing electric windlass with remote switch and chain, 3 spare anchors, new alum RIB and 8 stroke OB, trysail track, inner forestay, roller furling, storm canvas, anchor sail, sunbrella dodger, stanchion bases, new ports, new hatches, new lighting panel, Alum propane tanks, solenoid and gas alarms, 110v inverter, planel and outlets barient and lewmar winches added secondaries, sunning back stays, NUC computer w/ HP monitor and buck transformer, harnesses, jack lines, lifesling, demountable motor lifting crane, all OEM blocks replaced, full batten main w/ Dutchman, many spares. stove replaced... complete set of dishes and cutlery with hidden racks, teak and holly half hull model... and that's from memory.

This 36s is like no other one out there. Does it matter? Who knows. Is there work to do? Projects to do?.. of course and there will always be.

If the right partner does not present. I will eventually sell the boat like others listed on the WWW.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> My friend you will not like what I am about to say I fear. We have met and broken bread and I think very highly about you.
> 
> - SanderO
> 
> ...


Dave,

I have bno problem with your post. I think you are not understanding where I am coming from, going to and how I want to get there.

I don't want or need to teach someone how to sail. I am not looking for a noob. There is no complexity to sail control... sure it's a science and an art. I am not interested nor skilled at teaching someone how to sail... not do I want to.

What a noob needs to learn is the maintenance / care and intricacies of the on board systems... the ones I modified and installed. I know boo about diesel engines. I maintained mine for 35 years and it starts right up. I changed the engine mounts, starter, alternator and added a engine drive compressor and changed the belts, oil and coolant.

Do you have schematics and diagrams for your entire boat? I have 9 separate ones.

Shiva is my boat and it will be someone elses. And that's fine and that's what I want... someone who wants this particular boat.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> I am not trying to be rude.


Good to know, but wanting my keys didn't seem to have any other purpose.



> I am trying to make a few points. ......


Right and you keep repeating them. I think we understand what you're saying. I disagree with all those points I've noted above, just like most everyone else has. I've offered alternatives and even thoughts on how to accomplish what you're trying, even though I don't think it's likely to work.

What are we doing with this thread now? It's going in circles. This seems to be more of an amusing discussion than ultimately annoyed you, rather than an actual strategy for your exit.

I hope you find what you're looking for. The odds are not zero, just close.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

This deal may only work for the person who doesn't have the need or the ability to do the boat every weekend from May to November. They may have family which doesn't want to sail every weekend... who have other interests they are pursuing... or the buyer has other interests like hiking or biking or golfing etc. I've been invited up to the mountains and I decline because it's sailing season!

So I believe I can cut my boat time in half... but care may suffer. I think a partner can solve these problems... each has more free time and both can rely on the other for companionship and help. Let's say the boat is in western LIS and we both want to sail in the Elizabeth Islands of MA or up to Maine. This is a journey that two can do safer and more relaxed than one though it can take some time. If you sail without stopping each night you can get there in 1/2 or 1/3 the time. Partner drives up to use the boat... other one takes the car back.. and so on. I can't do over nights because the wife will not let me sleep when underway. In the old days I sailed through the night with my buddy.

My concern is that the boat is in good hands... nothing to do with control. The partner will know he will get full possession in time... and that delivery date can be speeded up or slowed down. There are not many of these boats around. There are hundreds of mid 30s boats out there.. Benes, Catalinas, Pearsons, Hunters, C&Cs.. Js... Swans, Halberg Rassy, Sweden Yachts, Baltic, Pretorien, Dufor, Hanse and the list goes on. Some are common some are rare. All mid 30s are not created equal. This boat will sell to a person who wants what it is. Someone may want the keys and take off. A few may want to take a few years to immerse themselves. And the reverse for sellers. My use may slacken and then I sell it. I think this is not an uncommon route for an old sailor. I still have some sails in me so I am not about to stop on a dime.

We'll see what happens. I've had a few inquiries so apparently some are toying with the idea.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> Good to know, but wanting my keys didn't seem to have any other purpose.
> 
> Right and you keep repeating them. I think we understand what you're saying. I disagree with all those points I've noted above, just like most everyone else has. I've offered alternatives and even thoughts on how to accomplish what you're trying, even though I don't think it's likely to work.
> 
> ...


The statement about the keys was to make the point that you would probably want to spend considerable time with another sailor who you handed the keys to your boat.

I realize many people hire crew to deliver a boat. I've delivered a few boats as crew with the owner. And one sister ship of Shiva to an owner who hadn't sailed the boat. The delivery was 4,000 miles!

I think I would ship Shiva rather than hire a crew to do a long delivery. But more likely I would get crew to help and do it myself.

I am trying to be positive so the negativity is a bit of a bummer.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> Dave,
> 
> I have bno problem with your post. I think you are not understanding where I am coming from, going to and how I want to get there.
> 
> ...


Actually I do have schematics for all its systems

I have rewired the entire boat stem to stern to masthead. All documented as well as color coded and up to spec. Lamp wire was SOP for some of my mast electric I discovered when I did it.

I have installed all my electronics including the NMEA 2000 backbone, new pedestal Gaurd tubes , run all the wiring for the electronics as well.MFD, radar, speed, depth, wind, AIS, VHF.

I have installed all the batteries ( it's why I have 6-6volt AGM, battery monitors, shunt etc, chargers inverter, got rid of the switch and installed the combiner, installed the echo charger for the start battery4

I have installed the dual Racor polishing system, do my own oil changes, new Bamar 100 amo 6 series as well as external AR5 ., replaced the fuel tank.

Installed a new holding tank

Installed all lifelines 3 times now.

Installed the Garhuer radar pole with engine hoist and installed the Garhauer davits with my wife.

Redid the AC/ DC panel to a Blue Seas and redid the teak woodwork to incorporate it.

Installed all new running rigging , shelves, new blocks, furling blocks, ez jack system.

Replaced all pumps and upgraded bilge and shower as well as installed a wash down pump .

All are documented and have diagrams in a binder . It's not that I'm cheap....I just was curious and when something broke, and it does I would know how to fix it. So we are similar. Tinkering and fixing is part of my boat therapy. Whoever get Haleakula when we are done will be sure to get a well documented boat

I carry three soft briefcases, one for electrical, wire, bulbs, fans. One for plumbing , and one for for fasteners,

My wife makes ALL canvas

Lastly I have kept a log of e dry mike sailed by Haleakula in an electronic log . It will go with the 12 scrapbooks my wife has made. Since digital pictures have come in this now is easier.

When our boat sells, we can sit and still reminisce about the journeys while we sip coffee in Assisted Living����������

What I don't do....bottom paint, standing rigging (rod for us), injectors , motor mounts , couplers. I don't fit into the lazarette easily now


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

SanderO said:


> This deal may only work for the person who doesn't have the need or the ability to do the boat every weekend from May to November. They may have family which doesn't want to sail every weekend... who have other interests they are pursuing... or the buyer has other interests like hiking or biking or golfing etc. I've been invited up to the mountains and I decline because it's sailing season!
> 
> So I believe I can cut my boat time in half... but care may suffer. I think a partner can solve these problems... each has more free time and both can rely on the other for companionship and help. Let's say the boat is in western LIS and we both want to sail in the Elizabeth Islands of MA or up to Maine. This is a journey that two can do safer and more relaxed than one though it can take some time. If you sail without stopping each night you can get there in 1/2 or 1/3 the time. Partner drives up to use the boat... other one takes the car back.. and so on. I can't do over nights because the wife will not let me sleep when underway. In the old days I sailed through the night with my buddy.
> 
> ...


You are correct but all boats are highly regarded by their owners and sometimes overrated over others boats by their owners. You see that at selling time especially.

My boat has disqualifies to some. So does yours. The boat you own is only perfect in the eyes of the owner.

Your boat is well made. Fashioned for the North Sea. We all look for different things in boats. Your boat would definitely attract some followers. especially in the condition you have kept her. Of course the buyer will be comparing her to other mid 30s boats.

There are many factors which go into the boat people buy. Some People have disqualifiers. Some I have heard include sailing ability, pointing, cored hulls, BR rigsm fractional rigs, full keels, iron keels, fiberglassed chainplates, Volvo engines, lots of outside teak, lots of interior teak, different hull joints and the list goes on.

There are over 5000 Contests made since 1958 so it's not really Fair to imply a custom boat. Since only 600 sold in the US it just isn't a well known one. Had their been a market here they would have sold them.

Many of those companies you named... are every bit as quality and well made. A racer cruiser is built differently than a North Sea cruiser. Even in the Benes there are different levels. Difference between Volvo and a BMW.
There aimed at different markets. That does not make one superior to the other.

Some of the 35s boats made here like the Bristol, Hinkleys, Morris, are also well made cruisers.

The C&C , Catalina, Bene, Sabre , Tartan mid 30s boats sold well in areas of differing winds like the Chessie, not just cruising the North Sea or the trades. Added to that they were priced so much higher.

I am glad you have found a SN partner to sail with. Anytime extra on the water is a plus.


----------



## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

Seems to me that trying to have an influence over who will take possession of ones boat is akin to trying to influence who ones daughter goes out with or marries. This whole exit strategy stuff with the partnership and so on seems to be a facade to cover the real motivation.
You want Shiva to marry the right man. One who is aware of and appreciates all of the loving care that you have given her over the years.
I suggest that you let Shiva speak for herself. Your influence will always be with her and hopefully she will find the right man. He may not be as detail oriented as you or do things the way that you would but just as with daughters.... at some point you just have to let go.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Purchasing a boat means a lot of research and knowledge. People in the market for a boat usually have narrowed their choices based on all sorts of factors. So I suspect some boat brands/models have more generic / universal appeal and others have a narrow niche appeal. And of course as boats are almost always altered... the modifications, upgrades, equipment and condition will make boats of the same model appear different... because they are. It's hard to make a universal claim that boat A is "better" then boat B by the same mfg and model. It's even more difficult to make the claim across brands for the same size. This is what makes this interesting!

++++

This thread is meant as a discussion for those who are wanting to get out of boating... because of the owners age and the deficits that come with old age. We slowly lose our strength, our range of motion, our balance, our sight and hearing...our energy... but often not our desire to sail as we did when we were younger versions of ourselves. You can sail as a senior... you just have to sail differently... and probably less frequently. People make adjustments as their life and lifestyle changes.

As a boat can be used in many ways... this too may change as one gets older. For sure maintenance and doing projects are just more difficult physically though mentally your abilities may be improved from experience.

As one uses their boat less... and the care becomes more taxing.... and their ownership costs continue unabated the possibility exists conceptually to find someone to pick up the slack so to speak. But that person should not have an immediate need for full immersion for whatever reasons. This is not common. When people commit they usually go whole hog full immersion. But I suppose there are those who don't own, who charter or crew and maybe rent a boat from time to time and that is adequate or a mach for their needs and budget and time availability. Partnerships are another approach... but they come with many hurdles. And they are clearly not for most boat owners.

An issue raised in this thread is can someone who was sole owner for decades change to a partner in the boat he owned? This appears to many to be impossible because of "emotional attachment". And that may be true. It certainly is a different situation from two or more partner buying a new boat together and sharing everything... decisions. work, time, costs.

The alternate to a slow exit is to slowly back away from everything one can and carry on with the expenses such as dockage/mooring/storage/insurance and do only required basic maintenance and let the boat sit unused until it goes on the market and is sold. This may be the more common exit.

I suppose some just cut the decision that it's time to more on haul the boat and put a for sale sign and list it with a broker and wait for a buyer. Kinda sad... because boats want to be used, sailed and "loved"... as opposed to sitting unused on land collecting dust and rust.


----------



## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Boats don’t feel anything Love, wanting to be used...anything . Your are transferring human emotions to an inanimate object

It’s not sad when the owner moves on to open another chapter of their life. Boats don’t define people, people define themselves.

Whether Haleakula goes to a good owner or not, will be of no concern to me. I will not waste time worrying about that. The boat is a made up of fiberglass. The humans who occupy it are the emotions . I will have moved on emotionally. I have sold houses and cars and boats before with that in mind. Assigning emotions to what really is a business / financial decision would keep me rooted in the past. I prefer to look forward. 

That’s why I think for me it will be a cut and dry exit if under my control. I don’t want to hang on and let that decision be made for me by circumstances like poor health or injury. When it’s time to sell I hope I recognize it

I have posted a lot in this thread as it hits close to home for me also. But I find myself repeating myself. Thank you for starting it and good luck. Whatever happens I hope you have happiness.&#55357;&#56836;


----------



## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

I've been trying to entice young/younger people to get in to sailing for years now. With similar thought in mind, of being able to turn the boat over to someone else to sail eventually. It's a real challenge. There are summer weekends here, when I'm one of few sailboats on the water. During the week, I can almost be assured that I'll be the only sailboat on the Bay, in the height of summer! This in an area with over 20 million people within 50 miles of me. 

Yet, Go to a Winery, a micro-brewery, a distillery,, a Food Truck festival, an outdoor Music Festival. a restaurant, around here and the crowds and the traffic are such that it's almost unbearable. The constant refrain when I take people sailing is " Wow, that's a lot of work" That, when I'm the only one doing the "work" , and often with guests aboard will only deploy the Genoa. 

Might help if I create a food-boat, micro brewery... wait! I serve food and beer too? 

Different Generation! Look around your boatyards in the fall and spring. How many people are there working on sailboats that don't have gray hair? ;-) ( if they have hair) ;-)


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

chef2sail said:


> Boats don't feel anything Love, wanting to be used...anything . Your are transferring human emotions to an inanimate object
> 
> It's not sad when the owner moves on to open another chapter of their life. Boats don't define people, people define themselves.
> 
> ...


Your comments are helpful. While I understand the notion that a boat is just a thing... to me it has been my home for 35 years... and it's not uncommon for people to get attached to their homes.... and other material "things". Of course my sailing skills have played a role... but the boat has gotten me through terrifying weather in the ocean and maybe saved my life and those aboard at the time. It took a pounding and stood up and we... the entire crew was sea sick as hell. We had one swept overboard and saved by the tether!

I am not looking forward to "the next adventure"... unless and until I can be more mobile things like travel will be more of a pain than a pleasure. I am still in recovery from a botched surgery which damaged my sciatic nerve. And nerves take a long time to recover... if ever. Sailing is actually something I can do out side as I am not needing to stand and walk! Lately I say the hardest part of sailing is walking from the boat to the dink or the launch!

A younger me needed to be sailing as much as I could... and tackled boat work tirelessly. That's no more. I now realize I benefit from help... and am not ashamed to say it and ask for it when I can. This means I pay for stuff I used to do.... stuff that needs to be done. But I do whatever I can and enjoy doing it.

But hell yes I see a lot of moored boats not moving from their moorings... and few younger people doing anything but racing smaller boats.

I won't repeat myself... but expressing my thoughts is helping me understand them.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

tempest said:


> I've been trying to entice young/younger people to get in to sailing for years now. With similar thought in mind, of being able to turn the boat over to someone else to sail eventually. It's a real challenge. There are summer weekends here, when I'm one of few sailboats on the water. During the week, I can almost be assured that I'll be the only sailboat on the Bay, in the height of summer! This in an area with over 20 million people within 50 miles of me.
> 
> Yet, Go to a Winery, a micro-brewery, a distillery,, a Food Truck festival, an outdoor Music Festival. a restaurant, around here and the crowds and the traffic are such that it's almost unbearable. The constant refrain when I take people sailing is " Wow, that's a lot of work" That, when I'm the only one doing the "work" , and often with guests aboard will only deploy the Genoa.
> 
> ...


this is so right!


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SanderO said:


> The statement about the keys was to make the point that you would probably want to spend considerable time with another sailor who you handed the keys to your boat.


I may want to, but that's the point. You want to, but you probably won't be allowed to with a new partner any more than they desire you to. It's no longer your boat, in a partnership, it's their boat too.

I think your sentiments are normal, just not practical for an equity partnership. You have to be willing to let the new partner make their own mistakes, learn alone, scratch your baby.



> I realize many people hire crew to deliver a boat. I've delivered a few boats as crew with the owner. And one sister ship of Shiva to an owner who hadn't sailed the boat. The delivery was 4,000 miles!
> 
> I think I would ship Shiva rather than hire a crew to do a long delivery. But more likely I would get crew to help and do it myself.


Interesting point. Turning the keys over to a professional, experienced delivery captain, should be a whole heck of lot easier than taking on a stranger as a partner. A partner isn't being paid to do what you tell them to do, how you tell them to do it. I've hired a deliver crew, with my boat, several times. A fairly basic list of thru-hulls, electronics and any squawks or idiosyncracies, such as max cruise RPM, and they're good to go. They spend the better part of a day going through the boat themselves and away they go. Whether via satellite or cell, they can and have called, with non-emergency questions, but not very often. Usually only to check in.

Enjoy your boat next summer and see how it goes, I think you may just not be ready to let go. Nothing wrong with that.



> I am trying to be positive so the negativity is a bit of a bummer.


Everyone in your SN camaraderie, including myself, hopes you find what you are looking for. I almost decided to just stop responding, if you find it negative. However, your friends, family and therapist will tell you the truth, if they care, not just patronize you. And still wish you well in finding what you're looking for.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> I may want to, but that's the point. You want to, but you probably won't be allowed to with a new partner any more than they desire you to. It's no longer your boat, in a partnership, it's their boat too.
> 
> I think your sentiments are normal, just not practical for an equity partnership. You have to be willing to let the new partner make their own mistakes, learn alone, scratch your baby.
> .....
> ...


So this clarifies something confusing... what IS the partnership?

For sure if the value was agreed upon and someone payed me 1/2 that value they would be an equal partner re equity. I don't expect that can happen for a number of reasons. Not many have the cash available and usually finance a boat. I doubt a lender will finance this deal. But I will... which means I will give them a term to pay their half... but they will not be fully vested until they have paid the full half.

So what does that mean? Do they share the operating expenses and work and get 50% use upon signing? I don't think that makes sense either. I am not sure if/how their ownership % can be increasing as they make payments. But it should be. What does owning 10% of the boat entitle them to? what responsibilities would they have? I have not thought this through. I am open to ideas and especially from someone who wants to do the deal and pay over time.


----------



## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There is a big difference between owner financing and an installment sale. Tax implications too, but ignore those as I doubt there are gains, although, the buyer may want a tax deduction on the "loan". 

If you've financed half the boat, they own half the boat, regardless of whether they've paid you yet. Just like you actually own your house, not the bank just because you borrowed the money from them. 

If you arrange for an installment sale, whether they theoretically have the right/obligation to buy 10% per year at a fixed price, their ownership increases over time. Year one, they own 10%. Therefore, you would likely agree to them paying 10% of the costs. The problem is no one should agree to be a minority owner like that. They indeed have no say in the partnership. Even if they like and fully trust you day one, you may become incapacitated or change your temperament, etc. Any advisor (accountant, attorney) would very strongly talk them out of it.

You'll need to let go to make this work.


----------



## john61ct (Jan 23, 2017)

Is your boat suited to single handing passages, assuming a well trained but fitter captain?


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

john61ct said:


> Is your boat suited to single handing passages, assuming a well trained but fitter captain?


absolutely with offshore prep... I've done thousands of miles single handed and with one other person


----------



## mstern (May 26, 2002)

SanderO said:


> So this clarifies something confusing... what IS the partnership?
> 
> What does owning 10% of the boat entitle them to? what responsibilities would they have? I have not thought this through. I am open to ideas and especially from someone who wants to do the deal and pay over time.


This is really the question, or more practically, is there anyone out there willing to do a deal like this?

Like everyone else here, I hope you find someone that fits the bill. Most of the negative comments seem to originate in the fact that the commentators would never want something like this. I include myself in that group, btw. It doesn't mean an acceptable candidate doesn't exist, just that he's probably not on Sailnet!

But your question about how to gradually transfer ownership might be solved by bifurcating the issues: you have the "what should Captain Beta be allowed to do with the boat?" question, and "how much equity does Beta own"?

Can you define a series of tasks that you would like to have Beta successfully execute before he moves on to the next level? He shows he can undock, dock, moor and unmoor unsupervised; he then gets to go on day sails or overnights without you. He can reef in 25 knots of wind; he can go 100 miles from the home port, etc.

All of this is separate from how much he owns. You set a price and payment schedule, with the ability to speed up the process. Of course, if you decide you need or want to sell before his last payment is due, he has right of first refusal. And if you do sell before he can or wants to become the owner, he is paid back his equity from the sale proceeds.

The amount of equity could be used as a marker for how much he gets to use the boat. First season, he gets x number of days that he can use for the activities he's qualified for. including unlimited sails with Captain Alpha (that's you). Next season, his equity is greater, so his number of solo days increases. Presumably, his competence also grows, so he can do more with the boat without you aboard. You would probably also want to address how to handle any potential upgrades during the transition period, as well as responsibility for repairs. Level of maintenance would also be important. Who gets to decide if you need new running rigging or a bottom job? Or even if the last person left the icebox clean enough?

I know that a big part of this for you is having someone to sail with to ease your burden, but frankly, I don't see how you could make that mandatory. You can make it so that you and Beta sail together so he can prove his competence, but other than that, it would have to be voluntary on his part. Unlike some here, I could see how that would be attractive. Not a lot of my friends know how to sail, so having a partner to do some cruising with sounds good to me. However, it wouldn't be a very steady gig; maybe once a season? And while I also get the whole mentoring thing, I don't think that's a long term option either. Is there really that much to teach about Shiva? I would think that after a season of mentoring and Shiva-:ship-captain: U, Beta is going to know everything he is able to learn about the boat. Of course, you still have much to impart in the ways of seamanship, but again, you can't force your company on the Beta's.

In short, unless you find a true partner, I think the best you are looking at is one more season with Shiva. After that, you will be an owner waiting for an invitation to sail from the other owner.


----------



## SanderO (Jul 12, 2007)

mstern said:


> This is really the question, or more practically, is there anyone out there willing to do a deal like this?
> 
> Like everyone else here, I hope you find someone that fits the bill. Most of the negative comments seem to originate in the fact that the commentators would never want something like this. I include myself in that group, btw. It doesn't mean an acceptable candidate doesn't exist, just that he's probably not on Sailnet!
> 
> ...


This is excellent!

There may be Betas out there who don't get to sail larger boats... for any number of reasons... except maybe a charter... and if they can quality to charter... they should be able to sail Shiva without too much schoolin'. But chartering is pretty spendy and demands large chunks of time etc. and a local boat to sail on... like a day rental would be handy for these Betas. Might even be available for multiple days. I don't think I can legally charter and renting may raise insurance concerns. But an informal sharing/use might work. Don't want to have to make a claim!

And then there's the work assist. I don't think it's unreasonable to be offered assistance... usually in exchange for sailing time...usally as crew for noobs. This is something we read about on SN often told to noobs: go to the boat yard... chart up some sailor... offer to help with Spring work and you'll likely be offered sailing time. This seems to be reasonable quid pro quos... (should I ask trump?) ;-)

I can carry on as before... as I haven't reached a decision point. SO this thread is really about when I am not able to sail as much and the costs remain will in retirement with less income. That's when thew wifey says... Alpha we're wastin' too much money on the boat... sell it. So maybe I need to go thru the year of little use and too much expense and "work for nothing"... and put the boat up for sail. However, I would reconsider my "upgrade schedule"... maybe postpone getting the AIS B and certainly the N2K... doing varnish, new saiis, running rigging and so on.

But the issue of sale price is also a matter for younger Betas... they may have lots of expenses... mortgage(s) on homes, private schools, car expenses, club memberships and whose knows what else. A boat is a big ticket item not unlike a new car or a small vacation cottage. And maybe that's why sail away dreams are often deferred to when people have passed those other hurdles.

You need time and money to commit to a sailor cruiser passage maker boat. It can't come cheap and young people don't have time if they are building a career by actually working. And building families may not be incompatible with owning such a boat... but it can be. Family might not like using the boat...and Beta needs to support the youngins' regardless. Absentee pop playing with his toys will not make mama happy.

I've met one Beta who appears to be the sail for help type of guy. And if I get on with him... while sole owner... why not?

Now I have to see if any other Beta's surface and what could work for them.


----------

