# Buying a liveaboard boat for circumnavigation



## michaelwebb (Aug 31, 2009)

My wife and I are considering cruising around the world for 5-10 years and in preparation for same are now actively looking for a boat 45-50' in lenght and would welcome suggestions. As we will be cruising outside the EU we are looking for a boat with large fuel/water capacity, a skeg-mounted rudder.

As we are currently resident and domiciled in Ireland but palnning to go afar should we consider a boat registered outside the EU (Jersey, Channel Islands, Gibraltar, etc..,) We plan to do a circumnavigation. What are the tax implications when we return from our odyssey?

Any advice appreciated!

Michael Webb


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## Wiley1 (Jul 20, 2009)

Why such a big boat? 

Wiley


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## michaelwebb (Aug 31, 2009)

This will eneble us to make 200 -300 mile passages with ease and bear in mind we will be like the tortoise, we will have our house with us. I think that 45-50' is as big a yacht that can be managed short-handed


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## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*Very broad question.......*

Hi Michael

It depends on where you are in the planning process? If you have done all the necessary book research and have narrowed down your short list to a number of boats, the location of available vessels will dictate where your search will start.

If you do not have a short list you need to read the following during the next bleak Irish winter (just like the summer, just colder).

1. Books by John Vigor
2. The Best Used Boat Notebook by John Kretschmer (both editions)
3. Anything by Calder and Casey.
etc. etc.

IMHO it would be hard to beat the US market at the moment especially with the Euro at 1.43 to the $.

You will have to research tax implications when you return to EU waters but I imagine you will be liable for full VAT if you return for a period of time.

I am also curious about this as I may be visiting the EU on a US flagged vessel in a few years and I have dual citizenship.

Feel free to e-mail me at wmgerry at gmail.com

Regards

Gerry


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## michaelwebb (Aug 31, 2009)

I am looking for the experience of people wo have cruised extensively short handed. Most of the boats I have seen are more suitable for marina berthing in the med. I am looking for a boat that can handle a F7-F8 with ease, large tank capacities, maybe a ketch to have a handier sail plan, rudder on a skeg. I have extenive racing experience in everything from Dragons to Cruiser Zero whereas my wife was a dinghy sailor years ago.


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## Wiley1 (Jul 20, 2009)

Michael, I have a bit of long distance cruising experience and of boats in general* and that is why I asked "Why such a big boat?".

All I can assume is Lady Luck shines continuously on you, your pockets are so deep Bill Gates asks you for loans and you are your wife are both iron man and iron woman contest winners.

That may seem sarcastic but frankly I don't know where to start. The idea of a couple cruising the world on that sized boat boggles. Had you said: my wife and I and a crew of three I think one might have a winning combination. In my experience a forty ft boat would be quite a handful for a young, smart and strong couple especially if one is talking F7 and above conditions. With inadequate crew, bigger is not safer, nor cheaper, nor more fun.

Bests,
Wiley

* Partial boating experience:
First Voyage: three years 1977-1980, 32 ft boat: California to Hawaii to Marquesas, Tuamotus, Societies, Cooks, NZ; pause for delivery of 39 ft boat from Antigua thru Antilles, Netherland Antilles, Panama, Isla Del Coco, Marquesas, Societies. Return NZ from NZ to Societies, Hawaii, California.
(Marquesas to NZ portion single-handed)
Second Voyage: only 11 months, same 32 ft boat 1983: California, Marquesas, Societies, Hawaii, California. (Hawaii to California single-handed)
Small Jaunt: 1986, same 32 ft boat: California to Washington State
Delivery: 1993, 65 ft Romsdal trawler: Panama to Washington Sate including Costa Rica and Mexico.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

You may wish to read my blog. I went with 41 feet because of the height and strength of my wife (she's only 35 years of age, so vigour isn't the issue).

Frankly, your strength is irrelevant.

Everything aboard needs to be scaled to the capabilities of the smallest or least able crew, because on a short-handed cruise, that person will be taking half the watches and must, outside of the larger crew's disabling or injury, be able to run the boat unassisted via muscle power and mechanical advantage alone.

If you were both six-foot-tall Olympians in peak condition and with several passages of offshore experience, I would say "sure, get a 50 foot ketch", because it is flexible for cruising in a way a sloop-rig isn't.

But outside of Ellen MacArthur, who is pretty short but visibly muscled, you have to look for whatever the smaller person can sail, alone, in 30 knots without injury or loss of gear.

As for tankage, if you bring a watermaker and bottled water and filters and a raincatcher, you can reduce your potable water tankage considerably.


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## gtod25 (Aug 5, 2000)

*We are not trying to be difficult here......*

But with a little effort we can be completely impossible..



michaelwebb said:


> This will eneble us to make 200 -300 mile passages with ease and bear in mind we will be like the tortoise, we will have our house with us. I think that 45-50' is as big a yacht that can be managed short-handed


A cruising boat that can average a minimum of 8.33knots would lead you toward a lightly loaded cat. Is that what you are looking for?

A monohull would require a waterline length of 39ft min. A quick troll on yachtworld.com shows 986 boats in the 45 - 50 ft range, from $100,000 to $500,000. Many of which would not be outstanding cruising boats.

A very good list of cruising boats is available here;

Mahina Expedition

I won't get into the boat size argument, you can come to your own conclusion on that. For the record I have a 42 Whitby. Also for the record I have only sailed +10K, about 4K single handed, mostly in the Caribbean, + 24 years in a small Navy, so I freely admit I don't know my arse from an anchor.

If you come back with a few boat brands, and a possible price range we may be of more assistance.


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## Valiente (Jun 16, 2006)

Yeah, I thought "they'll be lucky if they get 125 mile days on a regular basis" and "if they are buying a bigger sailboat to go faster around the world, a point is being missed."

My fuel set-up is predicated on only running the engine at 1,600 RPM (for maximum economy) yielding maybe 4.5 knots in a calm but swelly sea. The schedule is entirely dependent on everything but the clock and the calendar.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*A 45 to 50 footer is feasible with two, but*

We liveaboard and cruise on a Bristol 45.5 (CB sloop with removable inner stay). There are a number of ways to make a bigger boat easier to handle for a couple. For example, we have very large winches that mean that jib handling is not hard work at all.

Some of the modern conveniences to consider (and note that virtually all of these make the boat much more complex and expensive):
- very large and/or electric or hydraulic winches
- heavy duty jib furling (also can be hydraulic)
- large windlass because the ground tackle will be heavy
- bow thruster (we find that docking in tight circumstances is the toughest task of all; we anchor most times but there are exceptions)

All of this needs to be as bullet-proof as possible and it really helps if you repair most, if not all, systems. You might get the odd 200 mile day with a boat in this size range (keep in mind that it is only two people on a fairly heavy and heavily-loaded boat so speeds will not be near what a racing crew could do. Any day we are over 150 miles is a very good day although a more performance-oriented 50 footer would do much better.

What sort of budget do you have? This might be a useful starting point in determining how big and how fancy to go.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Well, here comes the dissenting thread, I guess.

I personally would not cruise on anything smaller than the mid to upper 30's. Of course, it has always been me, wife, kiddo and at least one worthless mutt. I honestly believe in singlehanding everything. Period. Any boat too big to singlehand is too big. I certainly do not think a properly equipped 40-50 foot boat is too difficult to single. Besides, it is the motoring that is hard, not the sailing part. And don't forget, Camaraderie and his wife cruised all over the place on a Tayana 52. My parents first boat was a Tayana 42. 

Boat reccomendations would be Tayana 42, Tayana 52, Mason 44, Taswell 44 and 49, Valiant 42 or 50, Passport 40 (and the other Passports), Hylas 49, Anything by Hallberg-Rassy, Oyster. The list goes on.

The issue is how much $$ you want to spend (US, of course, I don't do conversions). 

However, the ability to cross an ocean is really more captain focused then boat focused. I don't doubt that most modern production baots could cross an ocean. I just got a pic from a C400 owner of his boat in Bermuda (second trip). THey have also made HI and other long distance destinations. 

Many production boats would require modifications in my opinion. Also, legth of a boat is not always a good indicator of its potential speed. Many performace cruisers will exceed hull speed. I will tell you that a C400, my boat, has no problem sitting right on hull speed in a 15-20 wind. Giulietta, a 40 foot mono, will exceed her hull speed and has been clocked over 15 kts.

Just some thoughts. 

- CD


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## emagin (Jun 8, 2007)

Check the cruising boat stats in my signature.
Full list of boats you can sort by size and all the above referenced lists integrated.
Good luck!
I agree with the small as possible philosophy.


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## imagine2frolic (Aug 7, 2008)

My wife, and I cruise a 46ft. cat. We can't use all the storage, but when we have company. Sometimes as much as 4 plus us. We never feel crowded. There's a statroom for 3 couples, 2 heads, and one shower to be shared. There's 2 bows to seek solitude, and the deck space including tramps isover 1000sq.ft. Get as big as you can afford & afford to keep up, and easily sailed by 2. You will never regret it........*i2f*


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Michael,

I sail a 45 foot by myself and have no problem for handling her. Most of 40 foot are roomy enough for two, a 45 foot give extra space. If your budget is high and really like to have space, then a 50 foot might be for you. Modern boats come with modern equipment. A good crew of 2 can easily sail a 50 foot modern sailboat. If you buy an older boat, you will probably welcome new equipment coming on board before leaving shore.

What boat to choose ? How to respond ?

What do you like ? Ketch, sloop, cutter, wooden boats, aluminium, fibreglass or even steel boat, it is almost impossible to answer.

I do have 150 gal of fuel and I am fine with this. I am not in need of more.
I do have 200 gal of waters and I have installed a water-maker. I guess I am using too much water. I have a shower on deck, then when it is warm, it is easy to take a quick shower to get colder. But little showers after little showers, tank gets empty too fast.

About tax, here is some info.

You buy your boat in your country and pay taxes. When you return, you are all clear.

You buy you boat in a foreign country. First you have to register the vessel in your country with your name. Since the boat is outside of your country, you have no taxes to pay. (double-check with your custom)

Once you return.

You want to sale the boat. Sale it in a foreign country, still no taxes to pay.
You want to keep you boat. Once your boat will be in the waters of your country, you will have to pay VAT.

Hope this helps a little.


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