# Advice For Good Boat To Learn On



## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

Good morning,
I sailed in my teens with a friend who did most of the work, although I do remember a bit. That was 35 years ago! I want to sail again now that my kids are all either grown or in college. I have a friend who will teach my husband and I but we have two issues: none of the lakes around here rent sailboats, and my husband is 6'7" - we took a lesson a few years ago, and the guy put us the two of us alone in a 14 foot boat while he followed. Before we got out of the little bay, we capsized. Once in the lake, the boom hit my husband in the head because he couldn't get under it fast enough and we capsized again in the middle of Lake George. Needless to say, we want someone different to teach us.  

We are willing to buy a practical boat to learn on, as I know I, at last, will love it! I'm reading about 22 foot boats, thinking they might be big enough that he can get under the boom when coming about, and still small enough to learn on. We will be sailing mostly in Schroon Lake, a 9 mile long lake here. I don't know if we will be sailing in Lake George much the first few years - it's a big, deep lake and weather whips the lake up there very fast and very scarily. (Ask me how I know. It involves squalls and a 20 foot SeaRay. no, we didnt capsize, it was just scary.) If we overnight, it would be at an island with campsites, so we don't need to sleep on it. I'm liking the J22, there are a lot of them on Lake George, and they sound fun, but we want something easy to sal and VERY HARD to capsize!! That is our number one priority. We both are good swimmers, we aren't afraid of the water, but I'm assuming if a 22 foot boat doesn't right itself, you can't stand n the hull and right it, like the instructor had us do with the 14 foot boat, so we'd prefer to stay upright. 

Oh, and we need under 5k. He's a good carpenter and mechanic, and also furniture restorer, so we don't mind work to make it glow. Just needs to be sound. We just found an ODay 22 for $400, it's in good shape, the guy just bought another boat and has to sell it yesterday. But it has no trailer or small hp motor. (We have a couple of small motors around.) thanks! 

Thank you for any suggestions,
Nancy


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Nancy, 
First welcome to SailNet!

A 22 footer is a great size to learn on. With a swing or fixed keel she'll have enough weight that you won't have to worry about capsizing in any conditions where you'd want to be out sailing. These boats are designed to "round up", which means they turn up into the wind if they become over powered by a strong gust. 

In your size and price range condition trumps brand. A well loved boat will need less work to get going and less maintenance to keep her going. 

Systems are simple on these boats. Check the condition of the outboard. Does it start easily and run smoothly? Your husband's a big guy. When he walks on the deck does it feel spongy? Do you hear any cracking sounds? Either would indicate a water damage inside the deck. Are there any obvious repairs or cracks in the hull? Look at the lines. Are they frayed or showing signs of dry rot? If so they'll need to be replaced. Look at the sails. They should be reasonably stiff not soft and baggy - though you can sail a year or two with baggy worn out sails while you're learning - you just won't sail as fast.

J22's are great little racing boats but there are two things that may be an issue with your husbands size. The boom is lower on the J22 than an O'Day or Catalina 22's (two other common boats this size). The other is the location of the traveler - the line that controls the boom. On the J22 it's in the cockpit where it's closer to hand when racing but where you'll bang your shins. On the O'Day and the Catalina it's at the back of the cockpit where it's out of the way which is better for relaxed sailing.

Finally if you're going to be towing make sure your tow vehicle can handle the weight of the boat.

Best of luck,
Jim


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

JimMcGee said:


> Nancy,
> First welcome to SailNet!
> 
> A 22 footer is a great size to learn on. With a swing or fixed keel she'll have enough weight that you won't have to worry about capsizing in any conditions where you'd want to be out sailing. These boats are designed to "round up", which means they turn up into the wind if they become over powered by a strong gust.
> ...


Wow!! So much great advice! Thank you, Jim. So I am thinking the boat in the water gently used is better than the one that has been sitting on the land for the last ten years? Or it just depends??

So much to learn - which makes this such a fascinating endeavor!! Your generous help is greatly appreciated!
Nancy


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Nancyleeny said:


> Wow!! So much great advice! Thank you, Jim. So I am thinking the boat in the water gently used is better than the one that has been sitting on the land for the last ten years? Or it just depends??
> 
> So much to learn - which makes this such a fascinating endeavor!! Your generous help is greatly appreciated!
> Nancy


Nancy, Welcome to SailNet.

At least you know the boat in the water floats. But it really depends. When I bought my first boat to learn on, it sat on its trailer. I had an experienced sailor crawl through it and at least guess if it would float (I only had the seller's word). It didn't cost a lot. It had three sets of sails. I wanted to learn how to fix stuff as well as how to sail so it was the perfect balance of needing work yet still could be sailed as is.

All of what Jim said but beyond that, don't over think it at this stage (while still being safe, of course).


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Nancy,

Your plan is excellent. A 22 ft boat is an ideal learning platform, and lots of fun as well. Our first boat was a 22 ft Pearson. It simple, fun to sail, and taught us a lot. More fun per dollar than any boat we've owned afterwards.

If you can find a mooring or a dock so you can leave it in the water during the season, I'd recommend that over trailering. You'll use it more with less time getting ready to sail, and putting it away. If you need to trailer, don't let that stop you.

Enjoy the shopping around, talk with everyone, but whatever you do go get a boat and go sailing!


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

capecodda said:


> ...
> 
> If you can find a mooring or a dock so you can leave it in the water during the season, I'd recommend that over trailering. You'll use it more with less time getting ready to sail, and putting it away. If you need to trailer, don't let that stop you...


I agree with this. We kept our 22 foot sailboat in a slip. I hated trailering. During the winter, as long as there was no work to do on it, we kept it at the marina on the trailer.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

capecodda said:


> Nancy,
> 
> Your plan is excellent. A 22 ft boat is an ideal learning platform, and lots of fun as well. Our first boat was a 22 ft Pearson. It simple, fun to sail, and taught us a lot. More fun per dollar than any boat we've owned afterwards.
> 
> ...


Yes, we trailered our 20 foot SeaRay for the first few years we had it, and I hated it!! It was always a bit nerve-wracking for me. We have a Silverado 1500, so I think our pickup can handle the boat, but still...I would rather leave it in the water so we can just go!

One other questions - can a 22 foot boat be sailed by a single novice sailor? It would be in a pretty protected lake, only in excellent weather. I am not going to win "Adventurous Sailor of the Week" award in this lifetime, but I want to make sure that if I am alone, I can still go sailing. Thanks!!


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Great responses from some great members here Nancy.

The "J" class boats (22' & 24') are real racing boats which are fast to sail but are light weight and can capsize. 
J24 Blog » Another J24 Sinks
I think of these little racers as more advanced boats that are not so great for beginners to learn on. Having said that, I'd recommend you try to get a ride on someone's J22' on your lake as they are fun to sail but maybe without the tall man.
The Pearson Ensign (22') strikes me as a nearly perfect boat for you and your guy (not that other designs would not fit your needs). The Ensign is heavy for its size and nearly impossible to capsize much less sink and can be sailed by expert & novice alike. Another nice feature of the Ensign is the huge cockpit which can seat up to 6 adults. They are also fairly easy to trailer.
Your choices will probably be limited mostly by what is nearby but the farther afield you look the more options you will find. I know of at least one Ensign for sale in Nyack; not right around the corner but at least in the same state.
ENSIGN (PEARSON) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
Ensigns are still raced competitively if you get bitten by that bug.

Good luck finding a new instructor and a "new" old boat.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

CalebD said:


> Great responses from some great members here Nancy.
> 
> The "J" class boats (22' & 24') are real racing boats which are fast to sail but are light weight and can capsize.
> 
> ...


Thank you!! Good to know about the J boats. I really, really don't want to deal with capsizing a boat that long. The 14 footer was enough excitement for me!

Nyack isn't far at all. I'll go look at the listing. I hadn't looked into the Ensign, actually hadn't heard of it, so I am glad I posted here - I appreciate the response!
Nancy


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

Caleb,
The Ensigns I am finding in my price range are all 1960s boats. Anything wrong with that if all on the boat looks good? I read somewhere that if we were looking at Catalinas, to buy a later than 1986 or 84, I don't remember. So wondering if there was similar advice with these boats. Thanks!
Nancy


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## emcentar (Apr 28, 2009)

Good luck with your search!

You can single-hand a 22, but you probably won't want to while you are building up your sailing skills. That extra hand is quite handy in many circumstances.

A 22 is a great size boat, but given the type of sailing you are talking about (summer sailing on a lake in the Adirondacks) I'd almost be tempted to recommend something like the Fatty Knees (with the sailing kit). That seems like it would be an awesome boat for lake-island camping.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

An Ensign would be a great choice +1. Solid, stable, big cockpit as already mentioned.

I also don't think you'd be making a mistake with a Catalina 22, I think this would be trading more interior living space for cockpit space. I'll bet there are a few of these in your neighborhood.

Also, don't worry about single handing. These boats will have small outboards, and with the sails down will be like a slow, stable version of boat's you've already owned. With the sails up they are much more stable than what you tried to sail in the past. You probably won't single hand the first day out, but you'll build the confidence in no time.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Nancy,

Yes, the Pearson Ensign is an older design with many examples still around from the 1960's on up. You can still buy them new but not in your price range. 
The Ensign for sale at Nyack Boat Club has an asking price of $4500 (w/motor & racing sails) so I did not link it for you. It looks to be well cared for and well kept though.
I'm pretty sure our club also has an Ensign they would give away; read "not as well cared for".
With boats this old it is all about condition, condition, condition. Plenty of stuff can need fixing/updating which may not be minor work (like soft decks). A cheaply priced Ensign (<$2K) will likely have some issues that need addressing but you can get lucky.

Your best bet is to look at as many different boats in the 22' +/- range before you buy. Even better would be to get a test sail on the different models before pulling the trigger on a purchase. Taking a 101 sailing course will get you out on a boat near this size. The course I took at City Island years ago used Benetteau 21's as the training boat.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

emcentar said:


> Good luck with your search!
> 
> You can single-hand a 22, but you probably won't want to while you are building up your sailing skills. That extra hand is quite handy in many circumstances.
> 
> A 22 is a great size boat, but given the type of sailing you are talking about (summer sailing on a lake in the Adirondacks) I'd almost be tempted to recommend something like the Fatty Knees (with the sailing kit). That seems like it would be an awesome boat for lake-island camping.


The Fatty Knees!! I definitely need to go look that boat up!! LOL!!
Thank you,
Nancy


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

CalebD said:


> Nancy,
> 
> Yes, the Pearson Ensign is an older design with many examples still around from the 1960's on up. You can still buy them new but not in your price range.
> The Ensign for sale at Nyack Boat Club has an asking price of $4500 (w/motor & racing sails) so I did not link it for you. It looks to be well cared for and well kept though.
> ...


I just signed us up for a class next week on Lake Champlain - it will give us the 101 certification. I am so excited! And the woman said it is on a bigger boat - I think a 25 foot boat, so my husband and I won't be able to capsize it, no matter how hard we try. 

Would you ask around your club about the Ensign? As I said in my opening post, my husband is very handy, and I am good at mindless manual labor. I'll look up the Nyack website.
Thanks much,
Nancy


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

I love your enthusiasm, Nancy. I hope you continue sailing and learning for a very long time.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

A boating club close to us has a fleet of Ensigns!! We were there yesterday, asking about lessons. It's the Saratoga Lake Sailing Club. 

Serendipity???
Nancy


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

DRFerron said:


> I love your enthusiasm, Nancy. I hope you continue sailing and learning for a very long time.


I just love water. I grew up every summer on Long Beach Island, NJ and I miss being on the water, but I don't like our SeaRay powerboat. It's so noisy and away from the water. And I sailed as a teen, as I said, a bit.

Plus, there is so much to learn about sailing, and I love to learn!! We were so busy when our kids were young, and still are healthy and young-ish, so I want to learn now!

You are all very nice and very helpful. Thank you for being kind about my lack of knowledge.
Nancy


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Nancyleeny said:


> ... Thank you for being kind about my lack of knowledge.
> Nancy


Every last one of us knew nothing about sailing at one time. Some of us tend to forget that, sadly.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Saratoga Lake Sailing Club sounds a lot like Nyack Boat Club since it is a working member club. Working clubs tend to be less high brow - which I like.
Most clubs have a bulletin board somewhere on the premesis where people can post ads for boats etc. I'd try to find out who is selling what at SLSC.

I can make some inquiries about the Ensign that our club has taken possession of. There has been some talk about having the members fix up this boat so that it can be a "club boat"; to be used by members & particularly prospective members. Like most boat clubs NBC is looking for more younger members but will not turn away older but enthusiastic members.

Very smart to sign up for the 101 course. You will learn a lot and get a feel for whatever 25' boat they use. I never went back for 102 or higher but owning a boat teaches you a lot without the classroom time. You are on your way!


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## LessTacksing (Mar 17, 2009)

I took my lessons at Yankee boat on Lake George (22' Hunter) during the summer a few years back.. Excellent instructors.

David


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

When I took ASA 101 it was on an Ensign. It had a huge cockpit, I bet it would seat six. The cabin was tiny, basically just a little place to store stuff, but if you're talking about camping on shore that'd be perfect.


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## nighthawk (Sep 25, 2013)

Nancy-

Welcome to sailnet and back to sailing. While your at your local club taking lessons, let it known that you are willing to go out as crew on others boats. I've found that there are always some nice souls willing to help you learn while they get a hand on working their own boat. It also gives you more time to pick others brains for little things they learned from experience and try out a few different styles and types of boats. Just watch out for the boat envy bug--you'll be scoping out a Tartan 32 before you know it.


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## Steve in Idaho (Jun 22, 2012)

Nancy, I had a similar background and am currently just a little ahead of your learning curve - having started (again) a few years ago in 14' dinghies (swims included) and just moved up to a "real" sailboat last year. We did a lot of research before buying our current boat, with the idea of going big enough for comfort and security but not so big that it turns into a lot of work and expense. I also became aware of the issue of core failure in older boats and wanted to avoid that.

Don't know if you will find any in your area, but we ended up with a '78 Ranger 20 for 3/5 of your budget. No core to worry about, and a roomy cockpit with cuddy that crew can stand in while handling sails with plenty of headroom under the boom. A tall person like your husband would still have to be watchful of the boom when sitting in the cockpit, but could still easily duck under while tacking. It's a tame-handling and forgiving boat, and easy to learn. Ours came with pretty fresh sails (3 head sails and 1 main), recent rigging, and a low-hours 4-stroke outboard.

That Ensign looks to have more horizontal room but less vertical, and is about twice the weight - which would be a consideration for trailering. Photos of one with a window in the main would cause me to be a little concerned for your husband's head.

Anyway - my main point which I think is valid, is that there are other boats in your price range that may suit you better. I'd be surprised if the R20 is unique in those collective regards, and you should be considering holding out for kind handling and headroom at the very least.


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## wikiwiki (May 11, 2014)

Flying Scot

Santana 20

Santana 2023

All inexpensive on used market great sailers


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Nancyleeny said:


> Wow!! So much great advice! Thank you, Jim. So I am thinking the boat in the water gently used is better than the one that has been sitting on the land for the last ten years? Or it just depends??
> 
> So much to learn - which makes this such a fascinating endeavor!! Your generous help is greatly appreciated!
> Nancy


Yes, one of the internet's best things is spending other people's money!


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## Greenhand (Jan 29, 2012)

You really need to check dimensions, and unfortunately the height of the boom above the seats is not a published dimension, as it can vary slightly within the same model, depending on the cut of the sail. Our Precision 18 has more head room in the cockpit than the Catalina 22's we took some of our lessons on.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

Steve in Idaho said:


> Nancy, I had a similar background and am currently just a little ahead of your learning curve - having started (again) a few years ago in 14' dinghies (swims included) and just moved up to a "real" sailboat last year. We did a lot of research before buying our current boat, with the idea of going big enough for comfort and security but not so big that it turns into a lot of work and expense. I also became aware of the issue of core failure in older boats and wanted to avoid that.
> 
> Don't know if you will find any in your area, but we ended up with a '78 Ranger 20 for 3/5 of your budget. No core to worry about, and a roomy cockpit with cuddy that crew can stand in while handling sails with plenty of headroom under the boom. A tall person like your husband would still have to be watchful of the boom when sitting in the cockpit, but could still easily duck under while tacking. It's a tame-handling and forgiving boat, and easy to learn. Ours came with pretty fresh sails (3 head sails and 1 main), recent rigging, and a low-hours 4-stroke outboard.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I'll look into that too. Yes, headroom is definitely important for him!


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

Here are some ensigns. The pricing seems all over the place!
Used Boats


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

Nancyleeny said:


> Here are some ensigns. The pricing seems all over the place!
> Used Boats


Pricing on boats will be all over the place. It is one of the frustrating things shopping but it has a good reason. Maintenance is more important than anything on these older boats. We just bought a 25 last year to learn on that was in good shape and still we were able to easily drop a couple K into it afterwards. A well maintained boat with new sails is worth something, same model rotting in a field isn't worth the gas it would take to tow it home. There is a great list of things to look at as a sticky on this forum for looking at used boats.

We did what you are doing a few years back and the bigger boat disease has struck with vengeance. Learn on a 22 (or there a bouts) and have a blast!

Oh, and as another model, a Venture 22 would be great as would any swing keel Venture/Mac. As a returning sailor I would stick to something with a ballasted keel rather than water ballast. Starting off with a really tender boat doesn't sound like what you are looking for.

Welcome to the Sailnet!


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

AlaskaMC said:


> Pricing on boats will be all over the place. It is one of the frustrating things shopping but it has a good reason. Maintenance is more important than anything on these older boats. We just bought a 25 last year to learn on that was in good shape and still we were able to easily drop a couple K into it afterwards. A well maintained boat with new sails is worth something, same model rotting in a field isn't worth the gas it would take to tow it home. There is a great list of things to look at as a sticky on this forum for looking at used boats.
> 
> We did what you are doing a few years back and the bigger boat disease has struck with vengeance. Learn on a 22 (or there a bouts) and have a blast!
> 
> ...


Thank you! I appreciate the recommendations, in case we have trouble finding one boat, we may be able to find another. And you are right - until we get lots more experience, we do NOT want anything tricky to sail. 
Nancy


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

AlaskaMC said:


> ...
> Oh, and as another model, a Venture 22 would be great as would any swing keel Venture/Mac. ...
> 
> Welcome to the Sailnet!


That was my first boat: a Venture 2-22. It did well by me. Kept it in a slip on the Chesapeake.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Up in that region, the Sirius 21/22 is a common boat and very much admired. Easily trailed (swing keel version), good sailing qualities, and stout enuf for the Great Lakes. They cost a bit more than a typical Cat22 but sail better. Boom rides fairly high, tho the cockpit is smallish. Many have pop tops, which gives standing room in the companionway (rare on 21' boats).

It is true that the J/22 and J/24 have some history of rolling ... but I'd bet every single instance involved a spinnaker in high winds. They are favored by keen, entry-level racers who horse-whip them around the track and sometimes push beyond the limits of the boat or their own abilities. Add a reef point and don't fly the huge spinny in a thunderstorm, you won't be capsizing.

While the Ensign is a lovely boat and popular in tradition-rich New England, it is also a semi-full keel boat and weighs at least 1000# more than many sailboats that size. It's not an especially great pointing boat (tho it tracks well), it's (shall we say) _dignified_ in response to the helm, and it lacks somewhat the seat-of-the-pants feel you get from dinghy sailing, which is so valuable to learners. One reason we chose the San Juan 21 is its 1400# weight and slender swing keel; a bit jouncy in 40kt winds & chop, but very much an oversized dinghy & spins circles in its own length. If you can sail a whole bunch of boats from the J22 to the Ensign (or even a Tanzer 22, which is a tank), you'll know where on the zippy/stolid spectrum your sailing tastes reside. Luck!


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Nancy, by now you're learning that the best and worst thing about looking for a 22 footer is that there are so many different boats to pick from.

Here's one more thing to think about. Staying with a popular model means you'll be able to find online articles about projects you want to take on, other owners who can give you advice and most importantly -- parts. It also means that if you want to move to a bigger or faster boat later on it will be easier to sell the boat.

We started with a Catalina 22. It was a fun boat and because there were so many out there you could find any part and any project had already been done by someone who was willing to share their experiences. Frankly I still miss that boat.

If you find a particular boat that you're interested in post some pics here. Also check out SailboatOwners.com as they have subsections for owners of specific models. Those owners can tip you off to specific things to look for.

Best of luck
Jim


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Also don't be afraid to let everybody you talk to know that you're looking to buy a boat. You never know how you might connect with someone.

I looked at a lot of dogs in my price range that first fall. I was helping my buddy drop a new diesel into his O'Day when an older gentleman came over and asked if I could lend him a hand. He couldn't lift the outboard off his 22. I got the motor into his truck and helped him get some other things off the boat. Without thinking I gave him my number "...if you ever decide to sell". 

Guess who he called in the spring? You just never know.


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

JimMcGee said:


> ...
> Here's one more thing to think about. Staying with a popular model means you'll be able to find online articles about projects you want to take on, other owners who can give you advice and most importantly -- parts. It also means that if you want to move to a bigger or faster boat later on it will be easier to sell the boat.
> ...
> Best of luck
> Jim


This is really a great point. We bought the Mac 25 and there are TONS of them out there. Even a couple on our lake in Alaska no less. Everything we wanted to do to upgrade it had already been thought out, documented and posted on Mac owners forums. Between those, SN and AS I was never a few moments from a great answer to questions. I am sure Cats, Pearsons, Macs and many others fit this but it sure helped us.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

1977 Catalina 22 sailboat, 8 HP outboard, trailer, furler

This is a Catalina that is near us, $2500.

This one is $750, needs main sail. He, I can sew! Does that help???
1977 Catalina 22 Sailboat w/ Trailor

No trailer $1550
1978 Catalina 22 sailboat

This is $200, has trailer, needs mast
22 foot Catalina Sailboat


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

Some Ensigns

Pearson Ensign #169 22 feet
$1900, no trailer

Ensign sailboat
$4200, I don't think there is a trailer, which puts this out of our budget for this summer

This might be the one mentioned here, the price is right, $500
Pearson Ensign 23' Sailboat

Used Boats


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

I would recommend not purchasing a boat just yet. I think you will get more value for money by joining a club. The course you are taking will give you a bit of an idea of the internal size of boats. I think it will be a difficult time for your husband on a 22' boat. I chartered a 20' boat a couple of times in the Bay of Islands and found the cabin space to be very confining and I am only 6' tall. Further, the experience you gain will let you know what your needs in a boat will be. It will likely save you money in the long run.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

Thank you!

Do you need a boat to join a club? I am sorry, I don't know much yet,
Nancy


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Nancy, 
I work a lot of hours. For me it made sense to spend a little more and get a first boat that was in good condition and could be sailed right away. It got us out on the water where we could enjoy her and learn about sailing.

Now I'm a guy who can fix/build just about anything and it sounds like your husband can as well. But you want the boat to be fun and not a second job.

A boat that has been loved is already in good shape and has had a fair number of boat dollars invested in upkeep and maintenance. It's important to remember that the dollars you spend on a boat are spent on enjoyment -- like when you take a vacation. You will not get back what you invested in a boat if/when you sell her. Boats are not investments and it's easy to pour a LOT of money into an old boat if you don't really know what to look for.

That's why I recommend folks get a first boat that's in good shape rather than a fixer upper. You can always do that later when you have the knowledge and frame of reference to figure out just how bad that fixer upper is and how much work it will _really_ need.

I'd disagree with Scott about just sailing club boats to get started. I think there's value in owning a boat, doing the maintenance and getting to know her in a way that you won't know a shared boat. It's knowledge that will help down the road with future purchases.

This is just my opinion. There are those on SailNet who would definitely disagree. But if you walk along the back fence of any marina you will find boats that someone bought to fix up and then surrendered because they either underestimated the work or they lost the passion because they never experienced the reward of getting out and sailing. After all, getting out and sailing is what you really want to do...

Jim


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

CalebD said:


> Great responses from some great members here Nancy.
> 
> The "J" class boats (22' & 24') are real racing boats which are fast to sail but are light weight and can capsize.
> J24 Blog » Another J24 Sinks
> ...


With all due respect, having spent years sailing both the J-22 and the Ensign, if Nancy is trying to learn to sail, an Ensign would be pretty low on my list of choices since they tend to be tender, easy to swamp in a gust, and not all that responsive, and with a pretty low boom clearance.

I sincerely believe that Nancy would be way ahead of the game with a boat like the J-22 which has sealed cockpit lockers (unlike a J-24), a self-bailing cockpit, full floatation(unlike a J-24), uses non-overlapping headsails, and which has its boom higher above her husband's noggin than the Ensign. Some people who may never have sailed a J-22 mention the mid-cockpit traveler but you quickly get used to it being there and in the 12 years that I sailed a J-22, I don't recall ever hitting my shins on it.

From a learning standpoint, the J-22's responsiveness, forgivingness and the convenience of having the traveller readily at hand is a great advantage allowing a beginner to advance quickly once they get past the basics.

I would discourage getting an Ensign to use on Lake George, where light air, and beating ability are important.

I would also note that most people only own their first boats for a comparatively short period of time. In any sailing community there are bound to be boats which are more popular than others. It generally makes sense to buy one of these since there tends to be a stronger resale market and less depreciation than on a boat that is an orphan brand in that region. I would also discourage a centerboard (AKA keel/centerboard or swing keel) boats. Lake George is notorious for having sudden gusts even on moderately light wind days and as a broad generality, keel-centerboard boats tend to be less forgiving and also tend to have poorer light air performance.

Respectfully,
Jeff


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

By boat clubs I mean clubs that have a fleet of boats but I admit I have never joined one. I have read about them so going off that. Do a search for them in your area. It should introduce you to like minded folks and you are likely to get out on other boats through invitations. 

There are yacht clubs boat owners join and I think most of them allow for non-boat owners to join too. They run races and social events.

Once you get the idea of sailing you might look to crew on racing boats. It will be stressful at first but there is no better way to learn fast. Just tell the skipper your level of experience and bring some food and drink.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> But if you walk along the back fence of any marina you will find boats that someone bought to fix up and then surrendered because they either underestimated the work or they lost the passion because they never experienced the reward of getting out and sailing. After all, getting out and sailing is what you really want to do...


I think you are helping in my argument Jim. I would also include people who find sailing not really their cup of tea after purchasing a boat. I think my proposal is a more measured approach.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Another resource that might help in your quest would be the 'Women who Sail' group on FB. It is a large women only group that would likely give you a different perspective. 

Good luck!


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

+1 on Women who Sail. Very supportive group.


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

ScottUK said:


> I think you are helping in my argument Jim. I would also include people who find sailing not really their cup of tea after purchasing a boat. I think my proposal is a more measured approach.


Hey Scott, no offense meant. My thought is that if you find sailing's not your thing you can resell a good boat for what you have in it. You'd likely take a hit on a fixer-upper and/or find it harder to sell.

BTW, I'm not against clubs and I hope it didn't sound that way (forum posts have no tone). The tough part would be finding a club that would take my big ugly mug!


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Never took offense in the slightest Jim!


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

Thank you all for your suggestions! You have certainly given me a lot to think about.

I have found only one J22 for sail anywhere in our area, a d t was above our budget at $7500. As much as I would love to spend a bit more, my daughter's tuition calls. Loudly. 

Thanks!
Nancy


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## Greenhand (Jan 29, 2012)

DRFerron said:


> +1 on Women who Sail. Very supportive group.


They either ignored or reject my request to join


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

Greenhand said:


> They either ignored or reject my request to join


Me, too! I haven't heard anything from them. I'm going to ask again.

BTW, what is a "tender" boat?


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

My wife had the same problem but it was taken care of so keep trying. Wish I could join though.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

Nancyleeny said:


> BTW, what is a "tender" boat?


Tippy, or more technically, easily heeled. The opposite of "stiff".

Not what you want in a boat to learn on...


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Nancyleeny said:


> BTW, what is a "tender" boat?


A precise naval architectural definition of 'tender' would be 'a boat lacking in initial stability', but as colloquially, at least as used in the States, a boat that heels easily. It's the opposite of 'stiff'.

I assume that the quoted price of $7,500 for a J-22 is an asking price. You should be able to knock as much as a third off that price in this market. I don't know whether that will get the J-22 into your price range or not. Remember that an asking price is not the same as a sales price. In any specific case, and (spoiler: negotiating language hint) especially in the case of an older race boat without an active class, which has been on the market a while, in a remote region for sailing, there can often be big differences between the two.

In finding the right negotiating language you somewhat need to know the specific class. So for example, on the east coast, J-22's have plummeted in price then leveled out in the past year or so in part because the J-70 class has so grown exponentially, and in part due to the demographics of the J-22 class, older sailors on their way to aging out of racing, and younger sailors of child-rearing age whose kids are now at the "extracurricular activity/ no time for sailing" age.

Jeff


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

Nancy, another common boat in your size range, price range, and region is the famous Shark 24. It's a quirky little boat, likes a blow, might need some light air help. But hey -- learning how to make a heavy boat go in not much wind is a valuable skill! I bet a 135% nylon masthead genoa would transform that boat, and those are easy to launch, handle, and douse in sudden wind storms.

Build quality and condition vary a lot; helpful to have an experienced person along to assess a prospective. But $4000 will get you on the water in a design almost as popular as the Ensign but with livelier sailing qualities. Still not as quick as J/22 mind you. But possibly cheaper to start with, and the fun/$ ratio is very good.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

Hi,
We went to look at an O'Day 22 foot boat today. Asking price is $1200, has a trailer and all sails. Big jib is in great shape, main sail has a few 6 and 3 inch tears along the outer seam. Boat needs a good cleaning, and I think the hull needs to be scraped/sanded (?) and painted cause there is paint peeling off of it. He's had it 4 years, bought or from Cape Cod. It has sat for the past 2 years. It's a 1971 or 1973, he cant remember. No outboard engine, but we have a long shank one at home. 

__
https://flic.kr/p/14190710030


__
https://flic.kr/p/14354183416

I have a big sewing machine cause I make quilts, I'm thinking maybe I can sew the rips on the sails just for this year? I have thread that's like fishing line - if we buy it, would regular thread work, or would I need thread like that?

Then on the way home, we stopped and looked at this Ensign Pearson. No price, the guy can't find the title. He didnt get it. Is tracking down a boat title hard to do? Is it necessary to register a boat in NY? The boat may be very cheap (read:free) but has no trailer either. It has sails. 

__
https://flic.kr/p/14354174086
Any advice/thoughts would be greatly appreciated! Both boats are pictured. Thank you!
Nancy


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Nancy

We have a Catalina 22 and have sailed it quite a bit on Lake George. We have even taken it camping at LG and its an ideal boat for that. The pop top makes the little cabin seem pretty usable. The swing keel is necessary for easy launching and to pull up when you pull into a shallow campsite dock but is swings down 5' for stability. Ours is a blast to sail. 

I got a solid one with good sails on a trailer with no motor - for a song. Less that the Oday you are looking at.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

Hi,
Thank you for letting me know. The Catalina we looked at - we decided that was more than we wanted to spend on that particular boat, when there are much less expensive ones out there. I appreciate your recommendation because we probably will "graduate" to Lake George next year! 
Nancy


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

The O'Day without a motor isn't going to sell quick, so you may be able to knock a nice chunk off the asking price. If the boat's dry, the trailer's bearings/tires are good, and the tears in the main are not terrible, offer $800.


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

The O'Day might be a fine choice, but budget in at least a new (or good/used) mainsail for it. The number of tears & their location (leech) indicate badly damaged fabric. Probably a combination of age, UV, and flogging. The worry is, even if you repair the rips, one good T-storm could shred the mainsail to ribbons. That's not a fun place to be. Also, the boat will handle much better & stay controllable with sails that aren't bagged out & untrimmable. The ones you describe may well be original to the boat, from the early 1970s. It tends to be an afterthought, but sail condition should be a strong factor in your buying decision and in any price offer you make. A cosmetically tired boat with crisp sails is enjoyable _now_.

We sailed our SJ21 the first year with an old mainsail (new jib) and found it willful (to the point of dangerous) in inland lake conditions. A flat new main with one deep reef transformed its heavy air performance.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

bobmcgov said:


> The number of tears & their location (leech) indicate badly damaged fabric.


If the tears are in the dacron itself, I would agree. If they're just along the seams, but the panels still seem solid, stitch 'er up. Check the stitching on the rest of the sail, it may be due for reinforcement too. Ideally should use a UV-resistant polyester.

I used to re-stitch the opening seams in my ancient sails by hand during the long cold Canadian winters. They were made by Genco in Toronto who knows how many decades ago (boat was 60+ years old). The dacron was still crisp - if you are gentle to your sails, they will last a long time.



bobmcgov said:


> Also, the boat will handle much better & stay controllable with sails that aren't bagged out & untrimmable.


+1 on this.. Often the bagginess is due to a bolt rope which is contracting from age, which can be fixed.

If the sails are shot and you're good at sewing, you can do a Sailrite kit for your replacement and save a bundle.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

Both these Hunter sailboats are right near me - anyone familiar with these models/years?

1979 Hunter 25' sailboat

1986 Hunter Sailboat 25.5

One is. 79, the other an 85 for the same price.

Thanks for any info! 
Nancy


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

Wish I knew more to help on those two Nancy. Have you gone and taken a look?


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

Not yet. I hate going when I don't know anything.


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## zedboy (Jul 14, 2010)

If neither boat is too far from you, go and take lots of pictures of everything then come back here and get the peanut gallery to suggest areas for further investigation. The key items/issues/gotchas are the same for most boats of this size and vintage.


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## AlaskaMC (Aug 19, 2010)

Nancyleeny said:


> Not yet. I hate going when I don't know anything.


Go let your heart lead the way. (Oh and do exactly as Zed says and take tons of pics so we can help you take a look).

And I also agree on the sails, at this size, age and price, condition of the sails will make a big difference. Our main for the 25' was over $700 and that's really a good deal frankly. But, our genny and jib are totally serviceable. If we had replaced all three it would have easily added $1500+ to the purchase price. We sailed on the old main last year but it was like having a giant bra for a sail. Tad more drag than wanted and it made gusty days just plain scary at times. Boat would never balance right. With the new main I can one finger sail on the tiller most of the time. We are shopping for a boat now and one of the first things I look at is the sail inventory. Tells you a lot.

For example, I have found a loose correlation from sail age to engine hours (on boats that are used regularly). When people have lots of new sails, they seem to use them and the engine hours aren't so bad. Some boats are running really old sails, but the motors have high hours. I know I motored more when the baggy main made sailing no fun. May be just a coincidence but interesting none the less.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Yeah, go look at 'em both! It's fun to look at boats.

Take pictures and make a list of what comes with each boat.

I bet you're going to find that you like the '86 better. That newer layout gives you a lot more space. (I have not been on either boat, I'm just going by Hunter 25 and Hunter 25.5)


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

You should consider the expenses, logistics and risks that come with owning, towing and moving 25 foot boats in the adirondacks. Its big difference from a 22' .


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

Looking at this boat as a trade for our SeaRay:
Sailboat - Beneteau First 285


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## sparrowe (Nov 29, 2010)

Nancyleeny said:


> Looking at this boat as a trade for our SeaRay:
> Sailboat - Beneteau First 285


Nancy, that Bene 285 is in a different league than the Ensign or J-22 - even more so than the 25' Hunters that Sal Paradise says involve more expenses, logistics and risks. Will you learn a lot if you buy it? Sure: about diesel maintenance and repair, marine head maintenance and repair, galley maintenance and repair, through-hull repair and replacement, wheel steering maintenance, etc., etc. Relative to a 22' daysailer, you will pay more for everything from slip fees to running rigging. And at over 6000 lbs displacement, you'll need a hefty tow vehicle.

But you would be getting a lot more boat - a boat you could comfortably take on weekend trips, cooking and sleeping on board. That might be worthwhile if you have interesting places to sail to from your marina for overnights. (Again, the 285 is too big to be a 'trailer sailor.') If most of what you will do is daysailing then this boat is overkill - the smaller Beneteau 235 or even the 210 would be far more manageable on all counts.

Check the condition of the headliner - all the smaller Beneteaus have a nasty material that fails and has to be scraped off and replaced with something better.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

sparrowe said:


> Nancy, that Bene 285 is in a different league than the Ensign or J-22 - even more so than the 25' Hunters that Sal Paradise says involve more expenses, logistics and risks. Will you learn a lot if you buy it? Sure: about diesel maintenance and repair, marine head maintenance and repair, galley maintenance and repair, through-hull repair and replacement, wheel steering maintenance, etc., etc. Relative to a 22' daysailer, you will pay more for everything from slip fees to running rigging. And at over 6000 lbs displacement, you'll need a hefty tow vehicle.
> 
> But you would be getting a lot more boat - a boat you could comfortably take on weekend trips, cooking and sleeping on board. That might be worthwhile if you have interesting places to sail to from your marina for overnights. (Again, the 285 is too big to be a 'trailer sailor.') If most of what you will do is daysailing then this boat is overkill - the smaller Beneteau 235 or even the 210 would be far more manageable on all counts.
> 
> Check the condition of the headliner - all the smaller Beneteaus have a nasty material that fails and has to be scraped off and replaced with something better.


Thank you for all that advice. I appreciate your thoughts,
Nancy


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

Nancyleeny said:


> Looking at this boat as a trade for our SeaRay:
> Sailboat - Beneteau First 285


Nice looking boat! Just keep in mind, even if you have a big enough truck to pull it, you are not going to be backing that down a ramp and siding it off like a power boat that size. It will have to be pulled and dropped by crane. With that keel on top of the trailer and no bunks. If you know it is available at the location you want to take it then it is not an issue. That will likely have way more room than any of the other boats you were looking at but it is not exactly a "trailer sailer!"


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

While the Beneteau 285 is a nice design, I do have a couple comments to add. 
1. It is very much harder to learn to sail on a boat with a steering wheel. Non-sailors expect a wheel to be easier but the lack of feel in a wheel removes some of the critical clues that that tell a new sailor what is happening with the sails and the boat. I strongly recommend that you look for a boat with a tiller. 

2. Small Beneteaus were notorious for having miniaturized bunks, heads and galleys. Lie down on a berth and see whether it is full size (length and width), go in the head and close the door, and look closely at the sink size and visualize putting a small pot or pan in it. 

3. It is hard to tell precisely from the picture, but Image 14 appears to show that one of the transverse frames adjacent to the mast (king post) has been cut to allow a hose to exit. If that is the case, that represents a serious compromise to a critical structural component.

4. Older Volvo diesels tend to be expensive to maintain. 

5. This boat seems to be overpriced for what it is. There are a lot of really nice boats out there for $21,000.


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## unimacs (Sep 6, 2013)

Of the boats you've mentioned, I've only sailed the Ensign. My brother owns one. They're beautiful boats with a loyal following but they are a pain to rig without the proper facilities or some home made contraption for raising the mast.

The problem is that the mast goes through a hole in the roof of the cabin and rests on a plate on the bottom of the boat. Maybe that's not true of all Ensigns but it is of my brother's. The mast has to be raised so it's vertical and dropped through that hole. My brother does it cheaply by towing the boat under a small bridge and having three people on the bridge lower the mast down while he guides it through the hole.

And although it's not awful on a trailer it does have a full keel so any ramp is going to have to drop off fairly quickly in order to launch it. I wouldn't consider it a trailer sailor at all.

My general advice as somebody who has considered a similar sized boat to what your looking at is to find a boat and a situation that allows you to get on the water without much fuss. It doesn't matter if the boat is a dream to sail if you hate the process of getting it ready to sail or if you are spending all your spare time and money maintaining it. 

A lot of people give up on sailing because of the hassles and expense involved, so ease of ownership might trump superb sailing characteristics for that first boat.


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## Nancyleeny (Jun 2, 2014)

Jeff_H said:


> While the Beneteau 285 is a nice design, I do have a couple comments to add.
> 1. It is very much harder to learn to sail on a boat with a steering wheel. Non-sailors expect a wheel to be easier but the lack of feel in a wheel removes some of the critical clues that that tell a new sailor what is happening with the sails and the boat. I strongly recommend that you look for a boat with a tiller.
> 
> 2. Small Beneteaus were notorious for having miniaturized bunks, heads and galleys. Lie down on a berth and see whether it is full size (length and width), go in the head and close the door, and look closely at the sink size and visualize putting a small pot or pan in it.
> ...


Hi,
Thank you!!! Great advice, especially for the sharp eyes. I did think 21,000 was a lot, but as we were thinking of trading, and my boat is valued at around 10K, I didn't make a fuss about that.

And a mini bunk for my 6ft8in husband is not a good thing!!
Nancy


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