# How do I get insurance and how much does it cost?



## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Hi, I am looking at my next boat. It's been a while. I have never been required to have insurance. I called a marina today in Slameda California and they were very friendly. They said I needed title, registrations and insurance. Can I assume the title and registration are simple tasks just involving fees, but I don't know where to begin with insurance. Is it like with a car? Or do I have to have a costly inspection or something else. How much does insurance cost and Is it hard to get? 

I'm not talking about an expensive boat. Just looking at 25-30' 1970's sailboats. Thanks for the help and I appologize for spelling, my words are invisible to me for some reason!


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

With a small boat that is sailed locally, you might get an inexpensive policy from your house or car insurance company. It may not have all the coverages that a more specialized insurer could provide, but it would get you into the marina. As boats get bigger and plans get more ambitious, going through someone like Boat US or some marine speciality insurer or marine insurance broker would make more sense. Also, you'll see a lot of ads for brokers and insurers in the backs of boating magazines.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There are two major things one would considering insuring. First is the value of your boat, should it be damaged or lost. You make it seem like your investment in your boat is not worth insuring and that's your choice.

The second is the liability you would have, if you damage another boat or the marina itself. The biggest liability that concerns me is environmental: fuel spills, chemicals, salvage/recovery. This is likely the one that the marina requires and regardless of the size of your boat, you should want as well.

There should be a local insurance agent that is experienced in these policies. You can get the cheapest, lowest cost policy available. However, I highly caution that you shop for value, not just the lowest price. Why have insurance that doesn't cover anything?

It should not be terribly expensive for just liability coverage, depending on your sailing resume. Hull coverage is another story and depends on age, condition, etc.


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## fmueller (Mar 14, 2012)

*Progressive*

neither my home or auto insurance provider would even give me a quote for our boat because of its age. 1969.

I ended up using Progressive and it was easy and fairly priced. Got an instant quote online.

because of the age of the boat, i got liability only plus a small 'stated value' policy. that works well for me.


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

As far as an expensive inspection goes, yes you will need a marine survey. Basically, their are two kinds of survey, a basic insurance survey and a more intensive pre-purchase survey. An insurance survey will probably run in the $12-17 per foot range, with a pre-purchase survey in the $16-25 per foot range. Most Sailnetters will strongly suggest you get a full pre-purchase survey. It just might save you thousands of dollars finding hidden problems that will have to be fixed.

I'm on my fourth boat, all insured with Boat US.

In reading some of your old posts, didn't you buy a Cascade 29 a few years ago you were going to cross the ocean with? What happened with that one?


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

My insurance provider only requires a marine survey on boats insured for $25,000 or more. Most people who buy a boat at that value will have already had a pre-purchase survey that is considered acceptable. Check with your provider.

Insurance is pretty cheap as far as boat things go. I think I paid about $200/year to insure my Catalina 25 for $10k replacement value and $300k liability (the minimum that marinas generally want).


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

I use a good local agent who shops around for all my insurance. So far I have never been able to beat the prices by calling the big companies myself. I give her all my business and she often calls me first with better prices if my rates go up.

I have to admit that I have never heard of some of the companies, but, I have had claims in the past and never a problem (so far). Plus, she gets involved with the process. (She could be selling hundreds of policies to a company and maybe they respond better?)

Anyway, same agent for 20 years. So far so good.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

RobGallagher said:


> I use a good local agent who shops around for all my insurance. So far I have never been able to beat the prices by calling the big companies myself. I give her all my business and she often calls me first with better prices if my rates go up.
> 
> I have to admit that I have never heard of some of the companies, but, I have had claims in the past and never a problem (so far). Plus, she gets involved with the process. (She could be selling hundreds of policies to a company and maybe they respond better?)
> 
> Anyway, same agent for 20 years. So far so good.


This is absolutely the way to go, IMO. The agents have much more leverage with the carriers than you could ever have. The carriers have to compete to get the agents to send them business. The agents know the differences in coverage and responsiveness and can help you make a good decision. Least expensive is not always the most effective. Quite the opposite usually.

A good knowledgeable independent agent that works hard is worth it.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Well although I enjoyed that Cascade and learned a lot, poor female choices caused me to forego crossing the ocean.

But now I'm back on track and will be starting with dome coastal cruising.


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## Fau (May 13, 2012)

Is there a way to get insurance without pulling the boat out of the water? I have an old 27' O'Day that i didnt spend a whole lot of money on. Id like to ensure it but without incurring a huge cost.


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

I simply filed online with BoatUS and they sent me a quote/policy. All I have to do is sign it and send a check.
No comprehensive, 'cept for like 500 in pers belongings and the rest in liability... near 900K in oil/hazardous cleanup, tho!


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## sv sea bird (Oct 22, 2012)

Is there something wrong with mentioning good carriers or agents people have had good experience with? It sure would help in the search.


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## scratchee (Mar 2, 2012)

Fau said:


> Is there a way to get insurance without pulling the boat out of the water? I have an old 27' O'Day that i didnt spend a whole lot of money on. Id like to ensure it but without incurring a huge cost.


I insured my 1978 Cal 2-27 (27') with BoatUS, and they required a survey but did not require the boat to be hauled for the survey (ie, an "in-water" survey.)


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## afrinus (Feb 27, 2011)

I just recently insured my boat for "Agreed Value" through BoatUS

When applying for the insurance, I listed the actual price I paid for the boat, but asked to insure it for quite a bit more.
They came back, questioning why the delta. I explained that the boat was in pretty bad state when I bought it and that I spent quite a lot of money getting it in the current shape (boat physics...black holes..:laugher)

They said Great, no problem, but please send us the yard bills.

Well, I don't have yard bills, as I did all the work myself.

Here it became a little more tough - They explained that they will except receipts for all the replaced / new equipment I've added, but that labor can not be included - I guess my own labor have zero value....

Well, and here's a lesson for all that work on their own boats - I didnt keep most of the receipts.
I documented in my boat log anything I bought for the boat, but only in my own writing.

They were not happy with this and at first kind of said - Sorry we cant help...

I ended up documenting via photos everything I did on the boat - luckily I did take tons of pictures and videos as the work progressed.

Submitting the photos combined with the list of equipment I bought (with prices), they finally accepted the stated value, and proceeded with issueing the insurance.

Although it was a little bit of an effort (due to my own mistake by not keeping receipts), they generally were good working with, and their quote was quite a bit lower than everyone else I tried.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

I've always used Progressive because they've been affordable (multiple policy discount for auto too) and easy to work with. However, I've also heard good things about BoatUS and a few other specialty companies. You can find more info and links to several companies offering boat insurance at InsuranceForBoats.org.

Should be plenty of good anecdotal stories available about good and bad boat insurance in the wake of hurricane Sandy.


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## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

I own a 1979 AMF Paceship PY26 and I live in Jacksonville, FL. I just received a quote from my Geico lady who shopped around my policy to a bunch of marine affiliates and received a quote of 168.93 for the entire year. 
However, I got this quote on a Friday this past. There was a stipulation regarding the policy that stated I needed an 'out-of-water survey' to be completed before I could get it. Well, I only spent $2900 on the boat and never got a survey done but since I had practically rebuilt the thing and documented it on photobucket and with marina invoices the Geico lady thought I had a good shot at them allowing me to complete a 'self-seurvey form.' Anyway, since it was Friday early afternoon when I called I did not get a reply back from the marine insurance people regarding the survey hindered so I am waiting right now for a call back today to find out the results-- So just expect the policy to be relatively cheap for a bare minimum liability and pollution and uninsured boaters whatnot but also expect any insurance agent to want a survey to be done on your boat or that HAD BEEN DONE IN THE PAST 30 DAYS*** 
So, I would think you would be looking at under $200.00 plus the cost of survey unless you can get them to let you do a self-survey instead. I will let you know my results.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Did you get your results? Geico said if the boat is under 25 feet no survey needed, I'm looking at alot right in that range. I do not want to pay for a survey, do you know of any other companies that don't require a survey for liability only in case I get a 27?


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Be very careful with Geico. They are reputed to reduce coverage in ways the average consumer doesn't understand, in order to reduce rates. You see the same limit as the next guy, but your's may not apply to all the same events as theirs. (Have you ever seen the Mayhem commercials that say "your cut rate insurance may not cover this"? That's what they are trying to say, without naming Geico directly) You learn when you have a denied claim after paying all that money.

Cheap insurance is almost always cheap for a reason. I always recommend using and agent/broker that has access to several different insurance companies and can explain the differences in coverage so you can make an informed decision. All cruising grounds will have someone experienced in marine insurance.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I already posted earlier in this thread on how State Farm handles the survey. My agent requires a survey if the agreed upon value is over $25k, does not require a survey if it is lower. I don't think that length comes into that equation, only boat value, but I didn't ask specifically.

There have been other threads where there were concerns over what State Farm covered on boat insurance. I can only say that I've read my contract and feel like I'm pretty well covered, everyone should do this for their own boats and coverage.

I used State Farm because they also cover my house and car and they gave me the best rate as a result.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

The insurance companies ALL play cute with policy exclusions. If they were being honest, they would allow you to read the entire policy before you made any committment, so you could see the exclusions and limits. Instead, they pretty much all require you to take a policy and then read it afterwards. Which means you would have to pay, read it after it comes, cancel, find something else, repeat, while waiting for the refund from the first guy...
IOW they lock you in before you can see what is being omitted.

A good insurance broker will know which ones exclude what, and can guide you past that. If their quote sounds high, there is often a reason for it and they'll have no problem telling you what you've missed.

Some of the "auto" carriers don't have marine claim surveyors, so if your boat is damaged some auto guy is going to look at it, never suspecting that a grounding can mean the entire rudder is also shot, or how a t-bone impact can break lose bulkhead tabbing all the way through a boat, bow to stern.

It isn't just what they omit or exclude, and a good broker should have no problem discussing options and insurer performance.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Well, as long as I don't have to pull it out. I am just not the kind of person to spend $5000 dollars on a boat and $1000 to pull it and get a survey.

I've got the last minute, I'm actually leaving, what if I buy a lemon, can't get insurance, the weather is bad, the harbor kicks me out, can't park my car jitters.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

Hiring a decent marine surveyor will prevent you buying a lemon and blowing $5k on something that may cost you another 1k to chop up and dispose of.
Penny wise - pound foolish


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Law of physics. A $5k boat can cost more than what you paid to make her sailable and a pro can tell you what you should focus on, if you want her anyway.

I assume a marina only wants liability, I doubt they care about you recovering anything. Again, while I suspect they will take any proof of insurance you supply, you may not be cover and still liable. Get a good agent/broker.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

It's just always seemed to me that it's one of those services that since people either have to get it to get insurance, or are spending alot on a boat and are nervous, that the surveyor can charge a price that is out of line with the service provided. It's not in line with other costs in this world.

A survey out of the water I think costs $1000, in water 200-500. That's completely rediculous. Mechanics don't charge that much to work on your car. I just got towed in a blizzard in Wyoming, and for the guy to come in a blizzard out in the middle of nowhere and take me to town at night it cost $150. A long haul truck driver gets $500 to go to Dallas TX at midnight, spend 2 hours getting loaded, then spend the next four days of his life, dodging police, weather, accidents, and then fight traffic in L.A. to spend 2 more hours delivering for $500. 

So how does some guy charge $500 to come poke at a boat? Not happening. It's worth $100.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

You are right. It's just a long line of costs that won't make sense. You can avoid them, but they will bite you. Get a prescription for something, if it's already getting to you.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

So you want to spend 5k on a boat that you will sail across oceans (your previous post) but you don't want to pay for a survey or even get it hauled to look at the bottom.
PS ... the bottom is the part that holds the rest of it up.

You obviously know exactly what you are doing and I wish you good luck.


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## chuck53 (Oct 13, 2009)

northoceanbeach said:


> So how does some guy charge $500 to come poke at a boat? Not happening. It's worth $100.


Obviously, you have never followed a good surveyor while he did his job. If you had, you would see the hours he puts in and the training and years of experience it took for him to do his job. Then you would know, he is definitely worth a lot more than $100.
And you want to sail around in a $5000 clunker that hasn't even been hauled to check the condition of the bottom, let alone get surveyed.
Good luck!


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

My Pearson survey was more like $550, including haul out. The price was pretty evenly split between the haul out and the surveyor.

I self surveyed my Catalina, but the Pearson is a much more complex boat and I wanted someone else to check it. What was found in the survey paid for survey in negotiation. Self-surveying can work well (though it is meaningless to insurance) as long as you are open to walking away when you find problems. If you are emotional about it then it isn't a survey.

I didn't haul the Catalina, but wish I had. Everything worked out fine (I recently saw the bottom because a friend owns that boat now), but it would have given me a lot of peace of mind to have seen it hauled. What I found in the self-survey knocked about $1000 off of the Catalina price. 

In both cases more was found after words, that's just boats.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"So how does some guy charge $500 to come poke at a boat? Not happening. It's worth $100. "
Sounds like you've always been an employee and never self-employed.

Let's say the surveyor takes two hours on your boat, and spends another two hours in travel time, coming and going. So you want to pay them $100, which breaks out to $25/hour for the job.

Except, someone who is self-employed and running a business actually nets only about 1/3 of their billable rate, after accounting for vacation time, pension, sick time, and both halves of the social security (FICA) taxes. Someone who is real good at it, might net half of their billing rate.

And you're going to pay them a whopping net $12 per hour then, and expect them to eat the costs of gas and car mileage as part of that? Hell, they can make more than that supervising the fryer at any burger joint.

You won't find a plumber or an appliance repairman to come make a housecall for $100, why should a surveyor charge less? 

Some boaters can do better for themselves than what some alleged surveyors would do, sure. And if you buy a $5000 boat that has a couple of surprises, and you sink in another three or four thousand (don't forget the rent on the ground or slip under it while you're working) and then you first find out, it can't be fixed or other folks don't want to buy it and the landfill won't take it because it is classed as hazmat, ka-ching go to the hazmat disposal site...

You might decide the surveyor, like those other guys, wasn't totally unreasonable after all. 

But either way, someone needs to get some face time UNDER the boat, to see if there are problems with the keel or rudder. And with the rudder, if there is even a hairline crack in the paint, that can mean water intrusion and armature failure to come. So you really want to take a close look, hauled or not hauled.


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

Whoa, I am NOT trying to insult anybody. That's not my intent. Although I disagree with a couple points made.

1. I don't think that in a big area like Seattle I am hiring a surveyor that lives an hour from the harbor. It's probably a guy that lives on a boat there or nearby I would think. So it's not 2 hours commute.

2. I am no expert, but I spent a year and a half as a bottom cleaner, so I can always put on a wetsuit and dive.

3. the boat I am likely to get had a survey done a year and a half ago when it was hauled and bottom painted, so one for insurance purposes alone seems like a waste to me.

4. I understand that in not getting a survey, I am taking more risk, but alot of sailing is taking risks, and budgeting. If I hauled and survey lets go with $550, I would rather risk it, and spend that $550 replacing halyards or some standing rigging, or getting a dingy. You have to pick and choose, and for me, I would choose something that for $550 I can have in my hand. 

5. I am not intending to cross oceans, that must have been a previous post from when I was in Hawai'i with dreams bigger than my skills and I bought a Cascade 29.

I am not trying to piss anybody off, and if you choose or have chosen to have a survey done, I support your decision, because while I may feel it is overcosted, I still agree with your points that it is a good decision.

I'm also not sure that I WANT to know everything, maybe I'll get a good boat and sail the S out of it and love it, and just not worry about everything, I've seen some people on some rickety boats doing some really fun things, while I was in the harbour worrying about my standing rigging. I want to be safe, but I liked what I read the other day. It was an older guy in another boat saying he did alot of crazy S when he was young and he wouldn't do it now, but didn't regret it for a minute. Then he said, go while you are young, go small, but go now. 

What if I get a survey and there are just too many little things that I shouldn't buy the boat, these are old boats...what if I don't buy it, and then I look at another boat and get a survey, and then there are too many little things to buy it, I could spend all my money on surveys!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

northoceanbeach said:


> ........I would rather risk it, and spend that $550 replacing halyards or some standing rigging, or getting a dingy. You have to pick and choose, and for me, I would choose something that for $550 I can have in my hand. .....


Perfectly okay choice to make with your eyes open. Many do on boat like this.

It would make me nervous, as there can be issues with boats of that value that can exceed the value of the boat. It's a big reason so many are abandon at marinas. You can pay much less than a survey to simply have a few deal breakers checked. You may get peace of mind, but no survey.

Have fun sailing the S out of her.


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## TheWollard (Jan 24, 2013)

northoceanbeach said:


> I could spend all my money on surveys!


I feel your pain. I'm wrestling with the same issues. I purchased this month. I'm going to have it hauled, self survey, and self bottom paint before I move it to home waters. My Progressive agent didn't mention a survey. Boat US requires one.

I simply can't afford the slip fees, hauling, painting, AND survey right now. Hell, I can't really afford the insurance quotes I'm receiving either. Once my sailing dingy sells, I'll be better positioned. Until then, it's a shoestring budget.

Good luck. I've visited the San Juan Islands via ferry. I would love to sail those waters. Be safe and have fun.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Oh, a $550 survey just to satisfy the insurer. That changes everything.

As Emily used to say on SNL, "Nevermind".


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

northoceanbeach said:


> Whoa, I am NOT trying to insult anybody. That's not my intent. Although I disagree with a couple points made.
> 
> 1. I don't think that in a big area like Seattle I am hiring a surveyor that lives an hour from the harbor. It's probably a guy that lives on a boat there or nearby I would think. So it's not 2 hours commute.
> 
> ...


Here .... this may help you perform a self-survey. Marine Survey 101


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## TheWollard (Jan 24, 2013)

That Marine Survey link is great. I've added it to my shortcut/favorites. 

Thank you for sharing!


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

I did call a marine surveyor in Port Townsend to see if I could have someone come take a look at a boat pre-purchase.

They said they didn't really do in the water surveys.

They had at least a week wait.

Their fee was $2 per foot, plus travel expenses.

And I had to arrange and pay for a haulout. The haulout facility in Port Townsend doesn't operate on weekends.

So....to MAYBE buy a $4200 boat, I have to pay over a thousand dollars, convince the owner to take a day off work and help me haul it, and stand around all day for a survey.

What kind of negotiating power am I going to have after I payed a thousand dollars? Am I going to sit there and then try to get him down to $3900? He knows I have no negotiating power at this point. 

This may work for $100000 boats. I don't see why the surveyor can't come and do an in water inspection in port townsend to spend about an hour checking what can be checked. For the kind of money they charge they should come with a wetsuit and dive, and climb the mast, because that was the other thing, they don't go up the mast. For their crazy fee, I'm still left wondering if all the cotter pins are in the shrouds at the masthead.

I'm not trying to be bitchy, I'm just getting the impression these surveyors have the boat buyers buy the


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I don't know how you got to $1000.

$2/foot is $46. I assume you meant something else like $12/foot, which would be $276.

A haul out at Sea Marine is $7/foot for haul out, plus $2.50/foot for environmental fee. The total costs should be somewhat under $600.

If this is valuable to you is up to you. Have you checked with your insurance? I'm guessing that they don't require a survey on a <$10k boat (and the limit might be a lot higher).


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## northoceanbeach (Mar 23, 2008)

$20 a foot. Sorry. I got a quote for insurance. Full coverage quite cheap. I had I call around. Some places require a survey, some didn't. It depended on value, age, and size.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

There are less expensive surveyors in the area if you do decide to go that route. I think I paid $13/foot to have my Pearson surveyed.

Getting the boat hauled _is_ useful. You really don't know what is going on below without it. Diving won't let you see blisters very easily or see something like the Catalina smile (also common on C&Cs and other boats, where the keel stub is having issues). I didn't get my Catalina 25 hauled (the new owner did haul it recently) and never really knew what was going on below as a result. It was great to finally see it out of the water.


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## deltaten (Oct 10, 2012)

I had a previous quote for the "major carrier" for near $324/yr. They required a survey, which would total more than $325 for an "out of water" job.

I called the prospective marina and, while they require insurance, they have no "minimums" and "just what everyone else carries" was the answer./
I then called the more 'progressive' carrier. I had a few questions on the web-site application. They had no survey requirements; but recommended the upgrade to 250/500/100K coverage. Area include ALL coastal US water s out to 75 mi. offshore..as compared to the "other" , which would only cover to the end of the Bay. THe second quote also included a $500 each occurrence tow insurance, which I believe to be unlimited.

All that for the same or less money... and NO survey! Now, I realize it's all in the fine print; but......


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