# Battens Vs No Battens



## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

I need a new mainsail for my Monsun 31 and I just read an article extolling the virtues of going "un-battened" for a strictly cruising boat. Any of you guys have a contrary opinion? (hee, I made myself laugh there). Seriously though, I wont be winning any races (or entering any races)....should I consider going with no battens, with full length battens or somewhere in between?

(I do not currently have lazy-jacks...still on the fence)


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

I have 2 full battens at the top, then the two lower ones are partial. For me, it is working very well. Partly, that is because I removed the lazy jacks. The battens used to catch horribly on them - but that might be considered a function of poor design of the lazy jack system. 

If you have battens, you need to be able to stow the lazy jacks.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

In the mast furling mains do just fine with no battens. I avoid battens, the cause off 60% of mainsail repairs.


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## JimsCAL (May 23, 2007)

Last year I replaced my tired full battened main with one with two full uppers and the lower two partials. It's a good compromise for the casual racer/cruiser. Absolutely no issues with the battens. I have a Dutchman system and it makes handling the main so simple. LIght years better than any lazy jack system. I would never consider a main without battens. Too much of a performance penalty for my taste.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I think that it makes sense to have two full and two partial and a lazy-jack system that works (that you pull forward when you are not dropping the sail. I say that as someone with no battens and inmost furling. We have a big rig but I can tell that we would do better with some roach.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

If your really rich and like to give all your money away do get a full battened main. If your a regular guy like me get a batten less main and use all the money you save to get a nice new drifter which will become your number one sail as you cruise. I always hear people talk about how much better their boat sailed once they got a new full batten sail and attribute it to the sail. I'm no rocket scientist but I'm pretty sure any new configuration will give close to a full not over a crappy old sail. Think lift verse drag.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

I've had all three. Now with 2 full and three partial. Seems to work well offshore. No Batt cars to break, no batten pockets hitting the lowers, no broken battens etc.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

It isn't a question of whether or not to add to add something to your sail. Battens are there for a reason.

It's a question of how much mainsail you want. The reason that battens are added to a sail is to stabilize the roach. The reason that full battens are added is to retain shape across the sail. With no roach, no battens are needed. But as you add roach (i.e., sail area at the leech), battens are necessary. So if you want to have a smaller sail, go no battens. 

With that said, when we ordered our new mainsail, 3 years ago, I asked the sailmaker for as much roach as possible. Why? I wanted performance. So the battens came with it in a 2+2 configuration as a necessity. Why would anyone ask for the smallest engine (sail) in their car (boat) when the gas (wind) is free?


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

Another way to think about it is "would I be happier if my mast were 20% shorter?"

On my little boat the roach in the main sail adds about 20% additional sail area (200sqft vs 170sqft for a triangle). A battenless main would need to have a hollow leech, so it's probably more like a 25% difference in sail area.

I've read the same advice, but it is for long distance offshore boats, not coastal cruisers. If you are sailing with the trade winds and expect to have 20 knots every day then you can get away with the reduction of sail area. If you are coastal cruising that smaller sail might be the difference between sailing and motoring in 7 knots of wind.

The battenless main also moves the CLE forward, which could affect balance. It's pretty minor, but would likely require some adjustment to the standing rigging (more rake) to compensate.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

All very good points but you are forgetting that on a cursing sailboat the main sail is usually the most useless sail on the boat. "Why would anyone ask for the smallest engine (sail) in their car (boat) when the gas (wind) is free?" That sounds like something a sailmaker would say to sell a more expensive product. Flying an 8 ounce main on a 30' boat in 8 knots of wind is hell but add a nice light, well shaped drifter and you are in business. Roller furling has killed sailing all together. A well designed boat with a proper suit of sails does not need any roach or excessive roach, we are talking cruising boats here not racing. Where I live people always complain that you can't sail here in the summer but I have a friend who just did a two month cruise on less than $4:00 worth of fuel and hit every harbor between Canada and USA. He has a batten less main and hank on sails. His record trip was Port Townsend to Bellingham in 6 hours in a heavy displacement full keel 26' 13.000lb boat, thats almost 50 miles. If you want performance get rid of your roller and invest in a ver good head sails, like the sailmaker says..Why would anyone ask for the smallest engine (sail) in their car (boat) when the gas (wind) is free?  I'm just saying


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Brent Swain said:


> I avoid battens, the cause off 60% of mainsail repairs.


Hmmm, making up numbers again, eh? You wouldn't happen to have a cite for that assertion, would you? C'mon, you can do better than that... How about something like "Battens are the #1 Destroyer of Cruising Dreams", or "Full Battened mains are a coordinated effort of the major sailmakers - conceived during a secret meeting between Lowell North and Ted Hood in an undisclosed location back in 1979, to deprive sailors of their _FREEDOM_..."

Hell, I'll bet if you found a servicable battened main in a dumpster, you'd give it a whirl in a heartbeat 

Me, I'm very happy with my full-battened main and lazy jacks. Incredibly easy sailhanding, especially for singlehanding. I believe full battens can actually help prolong the life of a main, as flogging essentially becomes a non-issue... Of course, it is a more expensive solution, and if you go the full-battened route you'll really want to upgrade your mast track with something like a Strong Track, which will cost you... but in the long run, it will be one of the best upgrades you can make to improve mainsail handling, in my opinion...

I can't imagine going battenless with a boat like mine, the performance hit would be deadly...


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

"a nice new drifter which will become your number one sail as you cruise."

Not if I'm cruising San Francisco bay in summer, it won't.


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## GeorgeB (Dec 30, 2004)

I think that you can run a full batten main without batt cars on a 31 footer (it worked on my 34 footer). The problem with battenless is the sail maker has to take out all roach to the point of hollowing it out a little. The problem with a convex leech is the leech cord does a lousy job of tensioning resulting in a tendency for leech flutter and a shorter life span. If all you want is something triangular and somewhat whitish then by all means go battenless. Note also the trend for furling sails is to go to vertical battens to fix the problems of a hollow leech.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

barefootnavigator said:


> All very good points but you are forgetting that on a cursing sailboat the main sail is usually the most useless sail on the boat.


Yeah, I guess that's why the trend today is going towards fractional rigs with larger mains, non-overlapping headsails, deeply swept spreader rigs to eliminate backstays and allow more roach, and so on, eh?



barefootnavigator said:


> Roller furling has killed sailing all together...
> 
> If you want performance get rid of your roller and invest in a ver good head sails,


But still stick with a battenless main, right? LMAO!

Well, it's probably high time somebody informed these guys of that, no?


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## WoobaGooba (Oct 16, 2012)

I've never seen a batten less main with decent sail shape.

2+2 main for me + 135 genoa. Great combo for my area.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Good point, you may also notice they are doubling the horsepower on their auxiliaries because these boats are being bought by people who don't know how to sail


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

having never enjoyed a full batten main, other than on hobies... my experience is still green with them , however I can say that I like dousing the main along with a lazy jack system....it saves me from hauling sail from the cabin top and honestly using many sail ties

I like the shape and the fact that it will keep its draft(shape) even in light winds.

time wil tell


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

barefootnavigator said:


> All very good points but you are forgetting that on a cursing sailboat the main sail is usually the most useless sail on the boat. ...


That has been my boat on a few occasions.

To the substance of your reply. I disagree with a lot of it. I think it is not very helpful to say things like furling systems have destroyed sailing when there is so much evidence to the contrary. We have furling for main and genoa and doing 30,000+ miles without them would have been much, much harder. You would probably say our boat is too big but if you require a much smaller boat to make your idea of a cruising (almost said cursing) boat work then you are already giving up a lot of performance, comfort, and I would say safety for the supposed advantages of hank-on sails (we have a batten-less main but would not mind battens if they could work with furling - not convinced the various systems that have been tried make sense.


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

Good point, you may also notice they are doubling the horsepower on their auxiliaries because these boats are being bought by people who don't know how to sail


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

Interesting conversation. Remember though, this is a purely cruising boat, with a cut-away full keel. It will never be a racer, and I'm hoping I can get some life out of this sail (I'm not a rich man).


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

exactly...I like the comparison to that volvo boat...that really applies


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

barefootnavigator said:


> If you want performance get rid of your roller and invest in a ver good head sails, like the sailmaker says..Why would anyone ask for the smallest engine (sail) in their car (boat) when the gas (wind) is free?  I'm just saying


I'm not a sailmaker nor was it suggested to me to add more roach. It's what I told him.

Roller furling killed sailing? I have no idea how that could possibly be. Safest invention since lifelines. But I guess that killed the fun too.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

i think furlers are great...having said that Im a hank on headsails guy, always have been always will...

they are a great invention, making cruising and sailing a breeze 95 percent of the time

its just one of those things I dont need just yet...when I do Ill be happy to have one...

however there are crappy furlers out there, bad installations leading to many a bad day out on the water...not the least of which are common dismastings.

in any case back to battens

I like the reduced flogging...thats one thing that drove me nuts with battenless it really was annoying and damaging to the sail and EARS


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Tenoch said:


> Interesting conversation. Remember though, this is a purely cruising boat, with a cut-away full keel. It will never be a racer, and I'm hoping I can get some life out of this sail (I'm not a rich man).


Well, if longevity of the sail is your prime objective, perhaps you should go battenless... That way, chances are good you'll wind up motoring more, and sailing less...

)

Bob Perry explains well the principal drawbacks to mains without battens and having a hollow leech. You invariably wind up having an over-tensioned leech that hooks to windward as the breeze builds, something he sarcastically refers to as a "speed cup"  Perhaps even worse, it's all but impossible to move the draft forward with such sails, rather the draft migrates aft, which only exacerbates heeling, and weather helm...

Furthermore, I think it's very rarely a smart move to depart from the designer's original sailplan... Boats like killarney's Bristol were originally drawn knowing they'd be fitted with a Hood Stowaway main with a hollow leech. Olle Enderlein drew your boat with a conventional main, and as much roach as the backstay will allow. I doubt HE would endorse such a switch, 'ya think?


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## SVTatia (May 7, 2007)

35K miles with no roach and no battens. Mostly single-handed. I sailed 99.99% of the time and 0 mainsail repairs.

One major advantage is the ability to reef or unreef on any wind and any point of sail. 

For ocean cruising, IMHO, the roach, extra sail area, hook, etc. are irrelevant, given the major advantage above.


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

Batten less roller furling has ruined my life and i may never sail again


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

SVTatia said:


> 35K miles with no roach and no battens. Mostly single-handed. I sailed 99.99% of the time and 0 mainsail repairs.
> 
> One major advantage is the ability to reef or unreef on any wind and any point of sail.
> 
> For ocean cruising, IMHO, the roach, extra sail area, hook, etc. are irrelevant, given the major advantage above.


This is why I asked the question originally - reefing under any point of sail, especially short handed....and longevity. It is interesting to me that people have such strong convictions against battenless mains, but guys who sail 35k miles solo swear by them. My plan is to do the puddle jump alone, so these kinds of comments hold a lot of weight.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

Why not pull the battens from your sail and try it ?
I like a full batten sail, but it's a decision I've made based on personal perferences.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

What makes battens difficult to reef? I'm not being sarcastic, really want to know. I ask because we frequently reef and battens have never been a consideration. They just get tucked in with everything else.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Pulling the battens out doesn't work since the roach is not supported. A good question to ask is how much horsepower does the boat have with battens? If a lot and you have to reef early it would be a better candidate for no battens. I have an image in my head that a J40 would be a better candidate than a Westsail 32 for example, but I would tend to agree with Jon that the designer of the boat probably knew what they were doing.


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## tomandchris (Nov 11, 2009)

Sabreman said:


> What makes battens difficult to reef? I'm not being sarcastic, really want to know. I ask because we frequently reef and battens have never been a consideration. They just get tucked in with everything else.


A very good question in my mind. The OP said that he had a decision to make and added that he does not have lazy jacks as yet either.

Most of those answering and showing pictures have in mast furling mainsails. Although I would still prefer vertical battens in that case it still makes sense that it is a lot easier to reef with that system.
It seems the OP has a standard main. Why would reefing be any easier for a battenless main than a full batten main? In my mind it is easier to get some control of a sail with battens then one with none and no lazy jacks as well.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

Hmmm. Well the boat came stock with a small roach and three very short battens. So are some suggesting that this is the best arrangement for all applications, because this is how it was designed? I haven't heard anyone recommend all partial battens. I'm certainly not one to argue with Olle Enderlein (may he rest in peace)...but that WAS 40 years ago.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

> I haven't heard anyone recommend all partial battens.


True. They're sort of archaic in a era where fuller roaches are the norm for most boats. I use a 2+2 configuration. Two full battens at the top and 2 partials at the bottom as a good blend. Of course, that assumes a non-furling main (vertical or in-boom). For in-mast applications, vertical battens are a compromise to allow some roach.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

Tenoch said:


> Hmmm. Well the boat came stock with a small roach and three very short battens. So are some suggesting that this is the best arrangement for all applications, because this is how it was designed? I haven't heard anyone recommend all partial battens. I'm certainly not one to argue with Olle Enderlein (may he rest in peace)...but that WAS 40 years ago.


Full length battens was not common 40 years ago so that is hardly an argument.

There have been a development in sail design and hardware suited for full length battens during the 40 years since the boat was designed.

Most sailmakers I have talked to claim that full battens can give the sail a longer life. Meaning that it will maintain its shape longer as the battens support the sail.

Some have even added full battens to old sails to extend the life of the sail - with good results,

I have a larger boat than you have. My sailmaker installed battcars with wheels that can run on the existing mast track.


















Here is a sail are comparison between two furling mains with and without battens.
You will see the same differences between a conventional batten less and batten main.


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## baboon (Aug 7, 2008)

You may find that a sailmaker would be a great source of information on this topic. Pick a local loft, there are several in the PNW that focus on cuising sails. They will know the local conditions, measure your boat, and talk to you about your needs. If you decide to buy from a local loft it will be a bit more money than an offshore loft, but the support will be worth it. I did this with my new jib, and will do so again when the main is replaced in the next year or so. Keep in mind that battens are only one decision, sail cloth weight, reef points, and how the foot is set up all will need attention.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

yes, thank you Baboon, I will. 

I am no expert (hence the original post) but from the way I understand it without any battens the mainsail can be reefed under any point of sail...no need to come up into the wind. Fully battened mains can not, which facilitates the need for batt cars. I do not have in mast furling, nor do I want to modify the original track. 

I only brought up the all-partials because some were suggesting that since the original designer drew it up one way, it should stay that way. 

On a side note, Monsuns originally came with around-the-boom roller reefing/furling. Mine has been modified for slab reefing. 

Thank you guys for all the advice.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

Tenoch said:


> without any battens the mainsail can be reefed under any point of sail...no need to come up into the wind. Fully battened mains can not


Not at all true. Any mainsail will be difficult to reef off the wind (depending on size and wind speed) because the sail is pressed against the mast and track, binding itself in the track.. It has nothing to do with full battens. It is true that some very old full batten systems used just sail slugs that tended to bind. But that's not the case with modern systems designed not to bind.

But reefing off the wind is never an easy proposition. We just head up for about a minute, ease the halyard, hook the tack, re-tension and then return to course. Easy, easy.


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

Tenoch said:


> yes, thank you Baboon, I will.
> I am no expert (hence the original post) but from the way I understand it without any battens the mainsail can be reefed under *any point of sail*...no need to come up into the wind.


Not true.
No bermuda rigged main on a stayed mast can be reefed going DDW, the sail wound hang onto the spreaders battens or no battens.
Getting a boat keep it's point of sail while pulling in a reef going DDW....
Trying to do so would be dangerous - just imagine a crash gybe while you are reefing.



Tenoch said:


> Fully battened mains can not, which facilitates the need for batt cars. I do not have in mast furling,


I can pull in a reef on my fullly battened sail on most point's of sail except DDW.
How deep you can go while reefing depends on your spreaders 
I have inline spreaders so I can go rather deep.
I have never gone head to wind to pull in a reef.

The way I pull in the reef is like this.

Put the boat an stable point of sail where I can pull in the reef without interfering with that spreaders/shrouds.
Ease the main sheet to take some power out of the main, let the head sail pull the boat.
Check that the boat is stable on it's course - I don't need to use the AP
Ease the main halyard to preset mark for reef.
Winch in the tack reef line (if two crew available this could be done at the same time as (3)
Winch in the clew reefing line
Adjust main sheet. 
Tidy up.



Tenoch said:


> nor do I want to modify the original track.


No need to modify the track, lock at he batcars in my previous post.



Tenoch said:


> Mine has been modified for slab reefing.


Good for you


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

I guess my original post should have been something like this....

Hey you guys who have extensive offshore single handing experience, Im looking for a new main, should I consider going unbattened?

....this is the article that got me considering this in the first place....

http://www.hshyachts.com/html/a_case_against_fully-battened_.html


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

yes...you lose nothing trying one out...


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

Well I single hand a 44ft sloop with a full batten main. I get better sail shape and as I also have lazy jacks it is a considerable benefit to me that I just let the halyard fly and the sail self stows.

The only time they are a problem is if I have to take the sail off. Heavy!

If I shredded it today I would buy the same again.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

> ....this is the article that got me considering this in the first place....
> 
> http://www.hshyachts.com/html/a_case...battened_.html


The article has a number of flaws
1. The writer went out with a "good" sail and it shredded because he was unprepared. Clearly, the sail wasn't "good" but he somehow determined that it was because of the battens (?!)
2. He did a crossing with a new sail without full battens and didn't have any trouble. Call me a cynical, but maybe it was because the material was new.
3. He writer is incorrect that the sail is always powered up with full battens. If the boat is pointed to the wind, it will luff. He's confusing the forced shape of a fully battened sail with being powered up.

I've owned a North traditional sail that was retrofitted to full battens by the PO to give it more life. It did not hoist well at all, mostly because the sail slugs at the battens were strung in... a poor implementation. My current Evolution main (the one in my avatar) is a 2+2 and a dream to hoist and reef (2-3 minutes). It keeps it's shape beautifully and trust me, it luffs!

Talk to a sailmaker, they really do know what they're talking about.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

I saw some pics of the 2 and 2 setup you speak of sabre, yesterday as I wasnt familiar with the term...

now I know thats what they call 2 full battens and 2 partials

I like this setup a lot, its a midway type of sail...perfect for a cruiser or fast daysailor or anyone that wants the best of both worlds...

Im currently enjoying my full batten rolly tasker sail which came with the boat...

Ive been getting some quotes too for sails on my boat and some places offer damn good prices

quantum sails, rolly tasker and similar offer great deals right now.

to those with full batten mains, are you adjusting battens every sail to get correct draft? or are you using a middle ground setting on the battens and then using other controls primarily like outhaul, cunningham and halyard?

thought id ask here since its related to the ops question

sorry for the slight hijack

here is a nice article by pinneaple sails in the san fran bay area...on full batten tuning and battenless vs. full batten or partial, etc...there is a lot of truth in this article.
http://www.sailmaker.com/articles/fullbatt.htm


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

christian.hess said:


> thought id ask here since its related to the ops question
> 
> sorry for the slight hijack


No worries, hijack away. I think the original question ran it's course anyway.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

Tenoch said:


> No worries, hijack away. I think the original question ran it's course anyway.


thanks, did you read the article I linked...

kame richards is a well renowned sailmaker in the bay area, and his article is very objective, in fact offering very solid arguments for both types as well as giving true thoughts on the negatives of full batten sails for some sailors and boats.

I think youd do fine with a 2 and 2 sail like sabre says or a full PARTIAL batten sail that basically helps out with the leech only would be perfectly suitable for a cruiser.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

christian.hess said:


> thanks, did you read the article I linked...


Interesting. It does give me more to think about. I see both advantages and disadvantages. One thing I definitely don't want is added complexity, and added expense (unless I can get a huge benefit in performance from it - and 6.5 knots instead of 6 knots is NOT enough of a benefit) What I'll end up doing is getting in touch with a loft up here in the Northwest and see what they say.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

well for sure a full batten main can get complicated and or more expensive, for one there is more stitching and hardware

the poinst kame was making is that on some masts you do have to retrofit a new track and then cars and such to make it a smooth operation

my boat doesnt and seems to work fine...but that is boat dependant...

btw get in touch with lofts for quotes and stuff and shop around, but its better to ask owners of similar boats that cruise and or race with a full batten main to get real life answers

for example type in hr monsun 31 full batten main and see what pops on google. I did for my boat and got tons of info..tuning guides, racing guides, etc...

it seems though that you would not benefit any appreciable manner going full batten
one thing that the article points out is for a base sailor or non racer or a cruiser it wont be expected of them to retune the battens all the time for different winds and such...

something that racers do all the time, even mid regatta...a cruiser will set his sails for the most part and have at it...once is enough...not all but most...so say a full batten main gets you 6.5 knots but only when tuned correctly and say a non batten main gets you 6k on average all the time

I bet a non tuned full batten main will be slower than a set it and forget it main 95%of the time

why because it needs more tuning to be more effective...

this is just a guess on my part but it applies...if your not particular or attentive with tuning sails most of the time I dont see where getting a sail that requires a bit more attention and tuning would be of any real benefit other than be less floppy in the doldrums or something...jajaja

honestly there is a lot to chose from but I always say look at what others have done with your same boat and use real world advice and info that pertains to your specific situation

cheers

ps here ya go your boat, full batten main, cruising...
http://www.klubko.net/en/our-fleet/syjanna/

read on!

hey tenoch read this! this is the same person asking for advice on a new main on the cruiserlog forum!

good stuff
http://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/f46/extra-large-roach-mainsail-4677.html

and about track cars
http://www.monsun.nl/page/32/

new main pic
http://www.monsun.nl/2012/06/new-sails-fitted/samsung-3/

you got your reading to do! jajajaja, seems owners favor, full batten or full partial batten mains on their monsun 31´s


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

Oh yeah cool, thanks for the links. I am a member of the Monsun Forum as well and posed the question over there too. That guy Peter has responded to me. Yes HE prefers full battens...but I'm not sure all Monsun owners do! (also he seems to have a unlimited supply of cash-I'm a poor man).  But thanks again....now back to reading.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

> I like this setup a lot, its a midway type of sail...perfect for a cruiser or fast daysailor or anyone that wants the best of both worlds...


I believe that the Volvo boats use a variation of this configuration as well, so it's not a "compromise" per se.



> to those with full batten mains, are you adjusting battens every sail to get correct draft? or are you using a middle ground setting on the battens and then using other controls primarily like outhaul, cunningham and halyard?


When we had our last main and now with the 2+2, the battens were set at the beginning of the season. Our current sail from Evolution uses a very simples system that involves a strap of velcro that is pushed over the end of the batten with a pusher. The entire batten and strap are entirely encased in the pocket, eliminating anything that protrudes. Very clean and efficient wrt airflow. Set it and forget it. Even racing, unless EVERYTHING else is perfect, tuning battens (which I've not heard of) isn't going to have a profound effect. I think that people are over-analyzing this.

To be honest, I can't think of a good reason to go full batten from the start. I'd suggest 2+2 when new, then a retrofit when the sail gets to mid-life (for cruising applications, at about 10 years depending on amount of use or location). This wasn't my idea, rather Scotty Gibbs' at Evolution, but is a rational plan and in keeping with what I saw on the sail that the PO supplied with our boat.

These are good views of 2+2:


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

thanks for the pics man

yeah the tuning battens was both from ullman sails and pinneaple...for hardcore racers or weekedn racers they went into details about tuning battens

my rolly tasker full batten main is adjusteable using the typical strings to tighten up or loosen up each individual batten

like on a hobie sail.

they even went into details regarding taper and lbs per batten...

obviously those racing will tune more than cruisers...


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## knuterikt (Aug 7, 2006)

Tenoch said:


> I guess my original post should have been something like this....
> 
> Hey you guys who have extensive offshore single handing experience, Im looking for a new main, should I consider going unbattened?
> 
> ...


I read this article...
I agree with the author in some of what he is writing.

Less sail cloth (sail area) + less hardware + less work for the sailmaker 
= Cheaper sail.

It seems the writer have one bad experience with a sail of unknown age and state to base his findings on...

from the article A case against fully-battened mainsails



> But with the advantages, a fully-battened mainsail has a number of serious disadvantages. It is not possible to luff the sail and spill wind in a blow (as I found out last year); the sail always catches the wind. And this can be a serious disadvantage. Not only is it impossible to luff and spill wind effectively when at sea, what about the situation where your engine has failed and you want to anchor under sail. Coming up into the wind will not de-power the boat and it will keep on sailing until the sail is actually lowered.


It's sounds that I have been doing something impossible with my fully battened main for the last 8 years (before that I had partial battens).
I regularly sail to buoys and set anchor with the main up.
By the way - when I come up into the wind I always release the main sheet to prevent a small change in AWA catching the sail.



> Without expensive systems (such as the Harken Battcar system) the sails are extremely difficult to hoist as the sail slides are under pressure from the battens;


There are less expensive solutions that work fine, at least on my 38 footer.


> and with the battcar system they are difficult to reef as the battcars take up so much space on the mast track that a reef cringle will rarely reach low enough to be attached to the reefing hook.


No problem for me I have a two line system with all lines for three reefs led back to the cockpit.
And incidentally, have you tried unattaching a sail fitted with batters -- it is time consuming and difficult![/QUOTE]
Seriously, did he run out of arguments?
I normally fit my fully battened main sail in the spring
And take it off for winter maintenance and storage in the autumn. 
I can do both operations alone, if it's windy I do it hanging on a mooring buoy.
1. Attach halyard
2. Hoist the sail while threading the slides / batcars into the track
3. Stop when first batcar is just above boom
4. Fit batten
repeat 2,3,4 until all for battens is in place
attach tack and outhaul

My battens are inserted from the leech and inserted into the battcars


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## Night_Sailor (May 27, 2012)

What is most important to me is a main that will drop like a stone when I trip the halyard. I want it to come down all the way and not need to be pulled down. While it is falling I may be hauling in the Furler on the genoa. Speed control, including stopping is nice. 

A Dutchman works great with a track system on smaller boats. It seems that a full batten main with cars and jiffy reefing and stack pack set up would do a fast and easy drop with little to tidy up on bigger boats. 

I suppose leaving a new sail flaked on the boom neatly, over a winter might give the sail a natural set when it drops. 

My concern with any main is chafe on the shrouds. I'd rather pole out a second head sail on a foil than have a main up at full hoist when going down wind offshore. Certainly putting a reef in eliminates most chafe issues. 

What I don't like about dropping a fully battened main is the cars stack up in line like a train and that takes a lot of space on the mast above the gooseneck. On a big boats I don't particularly like standing on mast mounted winches to reach a headboard 12' off the deck. I'd gladly do that for a nice fold. Being tall that job often falls to me. 

I suppose I lean in the performance camp. A big main seems to improve pointing ability, particularly if the forestay is lengthen slightly. 

A hollow leach on a main is necessary for in mast furling. That is fine too as long as it rolls up. I would hate to be stuck with a sail I could not get down. I'd rather have a furling boom,which, if it failed would still allow the sail to come down. Slab reefing still seems to be the best , most reliable, and least expensive option. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

I've been re reading this post and thinking about it a lot as I'm ordering all new plai sails this year from Carol Hasse. She beat my brains out about having a single full batten and three partial battens. My boat is small, heavy, stubby and yes fast although I guess its a relative term. I'm going against her suggestion and going batten less because In my opinion for my boats its a better and safer way to go. At the end of the day while she may make my sails she won't be the one sailing the boat, I will. Regardless of what the OP chooses it will be a hell of a lot better than what he has. New sails is the single best upgrade you can do for your boat. I don't care about having the fastest boat on the water but having a slow boat sucks. The 24 hour record for sistership to mine is 225 nautical miles. Thats for a 20'10" waterline and 7400 lb displacement and yes a batten less main sail.


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## Tenoch (Sep 28, 2012)

barefootnavigator said:


> I've been re reading this post and thinking about it a lot as I'm ordering all new plai sails this year from Carol Hasse. She beat my brains out about having a single full batten and three partial battens.


Just to be clear, are you saying that SHE recommends one full and three partials? I should call up there. I would like to order my sails from her, but they would take at least a year....and the cost.....well....

(on a side note i think my current old main is an ancient Hasse sail)


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## barefootnavigator (Mar 12, 2012)

The initial cost might seem high but in the long run you get what you are paying for. Yes she recommended one full and three partial. You will want to take your boat there for measurement and the wait is more realistically 6-9 months. Considering the cost of a new diesel, sails are cheap. I have friends who sailed from Wa State to South Africa and their Hasse sails still show as brand new.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

barefootnavigator said:


> All very good points but you are forgetting that on a cursing sailboat the main sail is usually the most useless sail on the boat.


... Said just as most boats are going with more roach and smaller high-aspect jibs... because it works better. Others would say an overlapping head sail is the most useless thing, since the area generates far more heel than lift. Overlapping headsails make sense only because...
* cruisers use them as reachers off the wind
* racers get low-penalty sail area

I have both, and I like the 150 cruising. But never without the main. Never.

And this statement is just as incorrect:
"But with the advantages, a fully-battened mainsail has a number of serious disadvantages. It is not possible to luff the sail and spill wind in a blow (as I found out last year); the sail always catches the wind. And this can be a serious disadvantage. Not only is it impossible to luff and spill wind effectively when at sea, what about the situation where your engine has failed and you want to anchor under sail. Coming up into the wind will not de-power the boat and it will keep on sailing until the sail is actually lowered."

I cruised for years with a VERY tender Stiletto 27, and we loved the fact that we could luff the sail without flogging. I got a 1200 pound boat with a 45' stick and a lot of roach through many severe thunderstorms. It is the jib you can't luff. I think perhaps the method is different and he didn't get that. Just another part of seamanship.

---

Lots of posts here by folks that have not used full batten mains or never understood them.
* Never had a broken batten or related hardware (3 boats over 30 years)
* Sails last longer because no flogging and stretch supported better by battens.
* Lazy jacks work better.
* Speed? I can't believe someone suggested battens were slower if tuned wrong. Just silly. Why wouldn't you tune them (it really only needs done every few years, unless you are a tuning nut).
* Chafe is only a problem if you don't fit chafe guards. Never lost a sail to chafe, just age.
* Never had a pocket repair. That is a partial batten issue (they still flog). The only repairs I've had were a few stitches around the bolt rope and clew.

Yes, they weight more and cost more. For cats, there is not question. For a monohull, the weight is more of a factor and I won't judge. But skiffs and Vendee' boats seem to go. Just sayin' those smart folks might know something.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

pdqaltair said:


> And this statement is just as incorrect:
> "But with the advantages, a fully-battened mainsail has a number of serious disadvantages. It is not possible to luff the sail and spill wind in a blow (as I found out last year); the sail always catches the wind. And this can be a serious disadvantage. Not only is it impossible to luff and spill wind effectively when at sea, what about the situation where your engine has failed and you want to anchor under sail. Coming up into the wind will not de-power the boat and it will keep on sailing until the sail is actually lowered."


yeah, I got a good chuckle out of that one, as well...

Sure wish I'd found that out earlier, that all these years I've apparently been sailing with a mainsail capable of sailing directly upwind... Damn, to think of all that silly _TACKING_ I could have avoided, due to the "impossibility" of luffing a full-battened main...


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## H and E (Sep 11, 2011)

I am by no means an expert about sails, actually I am still in a learning mode. I just replaced my main with a full batten, loose foot, double reef main. It works quite well for me. Sailed a boat with batten less main a while back. I was not impressed with the sail shape or performance. Seems there are a lot of opinions, mine included, that are not based on any solid fact.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

^^ Yup, discussions are like that.

Solid facts. However, remember that when you compare a full batten rigs and conventional rigs, the sail is not the only thing that is designed differently.

*Most open racing classes use full batten sails. Restricted classes are... restricted. While opinion without side-by-side data, it is strong prima facie evidence that they are faster.
* You can't carry a lot of roach with a fixed backstay. 
* Controlling headstay tension is problematic without a fixed backstay. Running backstays and aft swept shrouds are 2 solutions, each with limitations and challenges.
*Cats have been using them for 40 years in great numbers without crippling durability problems. Partial and no-batten sails are quire rare (exist, but rare). 
*There have been challenges with batten cars in the larger sizes, over 50' luff. These have been effectively solved by experienced makers.
* They take more room to stow on the mast, but they stack more easily. Probably a wash that depends on tastes more than function.
* Broken battens are chafe are not a problem if you learn to limit contact with the shrouds.


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