# cruising rigs



## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

Hello all. 

I've been researching various boats in the 27' to 37' range for a while now and it seems that everything I read says that the cutter rig is preferable for long range cruising. It seems to me that each type of rig has its pro's and con's. The only rig that I have personal experience with is the sloop rig. I've never sailed a fractional sloop, only a masthead. I can see that tacking a cutter will be a little different since I would have to allow for the jib to come around the staysail and it looks like a very versatile rig, one that I actually like the looks of. I've also seen several boats that tickle my fancy that have a ketch rig. 

 This leads me to several questions. Is a ketch rig too much for a singlehander to handle in tight quarters or heavy weather given the number of sheets that must be tended? Some information I'm getting is that the mizzen may end up being a hindrance unless reaching or running with the windage it incurs. Is tacking the jib around the staysail a problem on a cutter? It seems to me that the wind would push the jib through unless one were in very light winds. I'm assuming of course since I have no experience with these rigs. 

I'm hoping that someone with personal experience with each of these types of rigs could compare and contrast from a solo sailor's point of view and share their thoughts on how practical each type would be for extended offshore voyaging.

Thanks. And keep in mind that I'm still a newbie and as such I probably don't know the right questions to be asking. So, any advice on the subject, even if it's outside the bounds of my question will be greatly appreciated.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

I sail my ketch as easily as a sloop. The mizzen behaves itself and doesn't need quick tending. I like the ability of my split rig to fit under the numerous fixed 55' bridges in my cruising areas,- Cape May Canal, Lauderdale's I-95, Ft. Myers,etc... Without other factors I'd probably choose the Cutter. With an auto pilot to take the helm while you deal with sails, all of the rigs can be single-handed. Versatility or performance,- like most choices everything is a compromise! Take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

Thanks for the response CaptainForce. You mentioned versatility or performance... I'm thinking that versatility will more readily apply to me. I'm not really a very competitive person. I'm looking forward to enjoying my journey moreso than just getting there quickly. I spent 10 years in the Navy and found that I very much enjoyed just looking out over the water and relishing in the way it moved me to think. I definitley want something versatile and the cutter does sound like a great choice, but I've seen some beautiful ketches for sale in the price range I was targeting. The next boat I buy will be my escape boat. It will be full time live-aboard as well as my vehicle for cruising so I want something that I can handle by myself. 

I guess the mizzen handles just like the main on a sloop? Pretty mush self tending other than minor trim adjustments? Is there much of a learning curve in adjusting to having 2 masts?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Dean,
I'd never go ketch by choice but if I found the right boat and she happened to be ketch rigged I'd not dismiss her out of hand. 

To be frank I reckon we agonise about which rig is the best when for all intents and purposes it probably doesn't matter to most of us.

That said .... our new boat is effectively cutter rigged. Not a true cutter but more a double headsail sloop. Under most conditions we'd only fly a single headsail but I do like the availability of the inner for setting a small jib and/or storm jib. 

One thing to remember though is to make sure the inner is removeable. If you are shorthanded and needing to tack then getting the headsail around the inner forestay is a right pain in the butt and very hard on the sail. (Furling the headsail as you come about is an option though a smomewhat tedious one.)


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## tomperanteau (Jun 4, 2009)

tdw said:


> One thing to remember though is to make sure the inner is removeable. If you are shorthanded and needing to tack then getting the headsail around the inner forestay is a right pain in the butt and very hard on the sail. (Furling the headsail as you come about is an option though a smomewhat tedious one.)


You learn something new every day. I've been looking into setting up an inner on mine, but I did not think about this. Great advice!


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

Many of the cutter rigs I've seen for sale have either a furler on the jib and a boom on the staysail or roller furling on both. It does appear that the distance between the two stays varies from boat to boat. I guess the more room you have between the two, the easier it would be to tack. The idea of having a removable inner stay is a good one. is that just a matter of installing the appropriate connectors? I would ask about gybing but would you fly both a jib and a staysail when sailing downwind?

May I ask why you would stay away from the ketch if given a choice?


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## Allanbc (Apr 19, 2007)

I'm happy with my ketch. It does everything I need. I would really like a cutter ketch but that didn't happen. The ketch gives lots of sail configurations and a lower bridge clearance. The smaller sails are definitely much easier to handle. Of course, when it comes time for new sails, there are more sails to replace. Also, a ketch has more standing and running rigging. Everything is a trade off. Me, I'm just happy sailing my boat. It gets me where I want to go (and will get me to more places in the future).


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Dean,
I meant by that to mean I wouldn't choose ketch as my preferred rig. I don't honestly believe that for a cruising sailor there is all that much difference in performance twixt ketch/schooner/sloop/cutter. Lets face it, our aim in the cruising life is to reach. Uphill is a bore for long periods and dead downwind can be a bit rolly polly so anything from a close to broad reach is the goal. A ketch in fact should shine in those conditions, as would a schooner. Indeed anyone who has tried to see off an old gaffer broad reaching has been know to get something of a surprise. 

For me its more of a dollar thing and I have no wish for a mizzen to get in my way. Dollars cos a ketch has got to me more expensive than a sloop to rig. More stays, more masts, more booms, more sheets, more blocks, more sails. Admittedly they can all be slightly smaller than on a comparatively sized sloop but I still think the point is valid. 

So, I am less averse to a ketch than most and lets face it from a distance there is little in small boat porn to match the beauty of a ketch or a schooner under a full press of sail. If I had one, I would not be looking to change but a single stick would still be my first choice. I am at heart a simple chap. (or so my good friend the wombet is fond of telling me.)

There are a few different ways to rig a removeable inner. It really depends on how often you are likely to want to do so. We owned Raven for six years and the only time I rigged the inner was to see how it was done. OTOH, we only went coastal. While I had need to reef the main on a number of occasions, offshore we ran a number two headsail which I have never had need to shorten.

Boomed staysails have the advantage of being self tacking but the boom is a trap for the unwary. Think bruised shin unwary.

I guess that here there should be a short word re genuine cutters v double headsail sloops. A genuine cutter is designed to carry sail on both inner and outer pretty much at all times. To that end they would use a very high cut headsail on the outer (I think it was called a yankee ??) with the staysail filling in the foretriangle. This would work OK cos the high cut yankee was fairly simple to tack around the inner stay. The double headsail sloop however tends to use a full sized overlapping genoa as primary headsail with the inner carrying a storm jib or e.g a number three. Ergo the need to remover the inner if you are going to do a lot of coming about through the wind. Yes gybing is an option but not a terribly efficient one. Offshore of course you may only need to tack once in a blue moon. Going forward to ease the headsail around the stay on those rare occasions is hardly a trial. Of course you are right in suggesting that the larger the gap between the two stays the easier it will be to tack but on a sub 40' boat that gap is never going to be all that large.

Now, to attach the inner. On our new boat , the inner has a stay adjuster which allows us to loosen off the stay then it is taken back to one of the lowers and tied off with a length of dyneema. There are adjustable levers that do a similar job though they are pretty rare these days I think, or you can arrange a bracket of some kind. There was a thread here not so long ago that showed a couple of methods. On Raven the rigging screw had an extension piece of wire so that when disconnected the stay itself simple matched the attachment point of our baby stay. 

Of course all of the above is pretty much generalisation but I think its probably fairly accurate. Others may have different ideas of course but I hope this is of some help.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

WHile I have not sailed one, to me the easiest would be a fractional sloop. To reduce sail, be it easy or not, you start to reef the main. A MH sloop, if you start with a 150 genoa or equal, you have to downgrade both the main and jib as you go. Ketch/yawl configs, do have some advantages in that one can drop the main sail, sail with a jib and mizzen and still be balanced. Cutters are not to bad either, as the main and staysail jib are self tending/tacking for the most part. Schooners, no idea!

With that, I do know from sailing my stepdads yawl with out the mizzen up, she is REALLY lee helmed! My MH rig, with a mini forstay as mentioned, is a PITA to tack anything more than about a 130 without having someone forward to pass the HS around the mini stay. Without it, a 150 is reasonably easy to tack, almost like a fractional or MH with a smaller HS. Mine with a 110 up is really simple, but lacking in power on light days!.

I do not have an RF system, so I do not as mentioned by TD the ability to use a larger HS, roll up, tack and unroll the HS> I could see this as being handy! or having an AS for down wind use, roll up to gybe, unroll when on the other tack/gybe if you will!

TO say that there is a BEST way or rig........not sure I am willing to say that. With that, some rigs are easier than others. If going used, you are limited, If new. look at rigs like the Jeanneau SF3200, Elan 350/310, Archenbault 31,34, 35 to name a few. Yeah, a bit thin on the inside coverings. but that is a easy fix! these have been designed to sail across oceans SH/DH racing. So they are fast, easy to tack, gybe etc with one or two folks onboard. Livening up the inside coverings, pretty easy. Easier tha making a rig that is not setup to SH/DH that is nice on the inside IMHO! Some boats just plain need rail meat to stay level!

MARTY


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

A ketch is more easier to sail than a sloop. The mizzen sail is like a third hand. Anoher advantage is to reduce sail area without too much effort.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Cutter rig can generally point higher into the wind than the ketch, though - yet another tradeoff. We have a cutter rig, yankee-cut headsail with roller furling, and removeable inner forestay, and feel good being able to adapt to any wind conditions. (disclaimer: we sail doublehanded)


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

_You seem to be asking about the relative virtues and liabilities of the various rigs. I apologize that this rather long and a draft of an article that I had written for another purpose. _

The next topic in our ongoing discussion on selecting your ideal boat is rigs. Like most of the topics to date, there is no single universally 'right answer' when it comes to the topic of rigs. Boats are designed as systems and each of the various rig types have their purpose and are best suited to particular hull types, and applications. The quality of the design is also important as a poorly designed rig of any type can make for a miserable sailing vessel that is hard on the crew and the boat alike.

Cutter and Sloop rig

These are the most common rigs being produced today. In current usage these terms are applied quite loosely as compared to their more traditional definitions. Traditionally the sloop rig was a rig with a single mast located forward of 50% of the length of the sailplan. In this traditional definition a sloop could have multiple jibs.

Cutters had a rig with a single mast located 50% of the length of the sailplan or further aft, multiple headsails and in older definitions, a reefing bowsprit (a bowsprit that could be withdrawn in heavy going). Somewhere in the 1950's or 1960's there was a shift in these definitions such that a sloop only flew one headsail and a cutter had multiple headsails and mast position became irrelevant. For the sake of this discussion I assume we are discussing the modern definition of a sloop and a cutter.

Historically, when sail handling hardware was primitive and sails were far more stretchy than they are today, the smaller headsails and mainsail of a traditional cutter were easier to handle and with less sail stretch, allowed earlier cutters to be more weatherly (sail closer to the wind) than the sloops of the day. With the invention of lower stretch sailcloth and geared winches, cutters quickly lost their earlier advantage.

Today sloops are generally closer winded and easier to handle. Their smaller jibs and larger mainsail sailplan are easier to power up and down. Without a jibstay to drag the Genoa across, sloops are generally easier to tack. With less hardware sloops are less expensive to build.

Sloops come in a couple varieties, masthead and fractional. In a masthead rig the forestay and jib originates at the masthead. In a fractional rig, the forestay originates some fraction of the mast height down from the masthead. Historically, sloops were traditionally fractionally rigged. Fractional rigs tend to give the most drive per square foot of sail area. Their smaller jibs are easier to tack and they reef down to a snug masthead rig. Fractional rigs place a lower stress on their hulls and often get by with lighter rigging and hardware for an equal structural safety margin. Today, fractional rigs are often proportioned so that they do not need headsails that overlap the shrouds making them even easier to sail. One of the major advantages of a fractional rig is the ability, especially when combined with a flexible mast, to use the backstay to control mast bend and sail shape. Increasing backstay tension does a lot of things on a fractional rig: it tensions the forestay which in turn flattens the jib. Increasing backstay tension induces controlled mast bend, which flattens the mainsail and opens the leech of the sail. This allows quick depowering as the wind increases and so allows a fractional rig to sail in a wider wind speed range without reefing, or making a headsail change than a masthead rig, although arguably requiring a bit more sail trimming skills.

While fractional rigs used to require running backstays, better materials and design approaches have pretty much eliminated the need for running backstays. That said, fractional rigs intended for offshore use, will often have running backstays that are only rigged in heavy weather once the mainsail has been reefed. The geometry of these running backstays typically allows the boat to be tacked without tacking the running backstays.

Masthead rigs came into popularity in the 1950's primarily in response to racing rating rules that under-penalized overlapping jibs (genoas) and spinnakers and so promoted bigger headsails. Masthead sloops tend to be simpler rigs to build and adjust. They tend to be more dependent on large headsails and so are harder to tack and also require a larger headsail inventory if performance is important. Mast bend is harder to control and so bigger masthead rigs will often have a babystay that can be tensioned to prevent pumping and induce mast bend in the same way as a fractional rig does. Dragging a Genoa over the babystay makes tacking a bit more difficult and slower. While roller furling allows a wider wind range for a given Genoa, there is a real limit (typically cited 10% to 15%) to how much a Genoa can be roller furled and still maintain a safely flat shape. As a result, masthead rigged boats generally require larger sail inventories.

Cutters, which had pretty much dropped out of popularity during a period from right after the end of WWII until the early 1970's, came back into popularity with a vengeance in the early 1970's as an offshore cruising rig. In theory, the presence of multiple jibs allows the forestaysail to be dropped or completely furled, and when combined with a reefed mainsail, and the full staysail, results in a very compact heavy weather rig (similar to the proportions of a fractional rigged sloop with a reef in the mainsail). As a result the cutter rig is often cited as the ideal offshore rig. While that is the theory, it rarely works out that the staysail is properly proportioned, (either too small for normal sailing needs and for the lower end of the high wind range (say 20-30 knots) or too large for higher windspeeds) and made of a sail cloth that makes sense as a heavy weather sail but which is too heavy for day to day sailing in more moderate conditions or out of a sail cloth too light for heavy going. Also when these sails are proportioned small enough to be used as heavy weather sails, these rigs will often develop a lot of weather helm when being sailed in winds that are too slow to use a double reefed mainsail. Like fractional rigs, cutter rigs intended for offshore use, will often have running backstays that are only rigged in heavy weather once the mainsail has been reefed. Unlike the fractional rig, when the running backstays are deployed, the geometry of these running backstays typically requires that the running backstays be tacked whenever the boat is tacked.

Cutters make a less successful rig for coastal sailing. Generally, because of their offshore intent, cutters tend to have snug rigs that depend on larger Genoas for light air performance. Tacking these large Genoas through the narrow slot between the jibstay and forestay is a much harder operation than tacking a sloop. As a result many of today's cutters have a removable jibstay that can be rigged in heavier winds. This somewhat reduces the advantage of a cutter rig (i.e. having a permanently rigged and ready to fly small, heavy weather jib).

Cutters these days generally do not point as close to the wind as similar sized sloops. Because of the need to keep the slots of both headsails open enough to permit good airflow, the headsails on a cutter cannot be sheeted as tightly as the jib on a sloop without choking off the airflow in the slot. Since cutters are generally associated with the less efficient underbodies that are typical of offshore boats this is less of a problem that it might sound. Cutters also give away some performance on deep broad reaches and when heading downwind because the Genoa acts in the bad air of the staysail.

Yawls and Ketches:

As I said at the start of this discussion, boats are systems and when it comes to one size fits all answers, there is no single right answer when it comes to yawls and ketches either. A Yawl is a rig with two masts and the after mast (the mast that is further aft or further back in the boat) is aft of the rudder. A ketch is a rig with two masts, the after mast is forward of the rudder. Either rig can have either a single jib or multiple jibs. When a Yawl or a Ketch has multiple jibs it is referred to a Yawl or a Ketch with multiple headsails. It is considered lubberly to refer to that rig as a 'cutter ketch' or 'cutter Yawl'.

I lump yawls and ketches together here because the share many similar characteristics. Ketches, in one form or another, have been around for a very long time. In the days before winches, light weight- low stretch sail cloth, high strength- low stretch line, and low friction blocks, breaking a rig into a lot of smaller sails made sense. It made it easier to manhandle the sails and make adjustments. Stretch was minimized so the sails powered up less in a gust and although multiple small sails are less efficient, the hulls were so inefficient that the loss of sail efficiency did not hurt much. Multiple masts, along with bowsprits and boomkins, allowed boats to have more sail area that would be spread out closer to the water. In a time of stone internal ballasting, and high drag in relationship to stability, this was important as it maximized the amount of drive while minimizing heeling. In theory, multiple masts meant more luff length and more luff length meant more drive forces to windward. But multiple masts also meant more weight and much more drag. There are also issues of down draft interference, meaning that one sail is operating in the disturbed and turbulent air of the sails in front of it, which also greatly reduces the efficiency of multi mast rigs.

Yawls really came into being as race rule beaters. They are first seen in the 1920's as a rule beater under the Universal and International rules. They continued to be popular under the CCA rule as well. Under these rules, the sail area of jibs and mizzens were pretty much ignored in the rating. This popularized the masthead rig and the yawl.

There was a basis for not measuring the sail area of a yawl under these rules. On a yawl going to windward, the mizzenmast and sail generally actually produce more drag than they do drive. This is because the mizzen is sailing in really turbulent air and has to be over trimmed to keep from luffing which can effectively act as an airbrake. This is slightly less of the case on a ketch where the size of the mizzen is large enough to provide a larger percentage of the drive.

Downwind mizzens also are a problem. In this case the mizzen is forcing the main or foresail to operate in their bad air and so again the mizzen is not adding as much to the speed of the boat as they are taking away. BUT in the predominantly reaching races that were typical of offshore races of that era they offered a number of advantages. First of all on a reach the sails are not acting in the slipstream of each other and so each contributes a fair amount of drive for the drag produced. Also with the advent of lightweight low stretch sailcloths, mizzen staysails, which are great reaching sails, came into widespread usage in racing. Here again a ketch has the advantage of having a taller mizzen and so can fly a bigger mizzen staysail.

It might be helpful to compare yawl and ketch rigs to sloops. The broad generalities are that for a given sail area a sloop rig will generate a greater drive for the amount of drag generated pretty much on all points of sail. That means that a sloop will be faster or will require less sail area to go the same speed. Sloops are particularly better than Multi spar rigs such as Yawls and Ketches on a beat or on a run. A sloop rig would tend to be taller for a given sail area. This means it would be better in lighter air but it potentially might heel more, or need to be depowered or reefed sooner as the breeze picks up.

Sloops work best on boats with reasonably modern underbodies. Both are more efficient and so can point higher and make less leeway.

Ketch and Yawl rigs work best with heavier boats with less efficient underbodies such as full keels and deeply Vee'd hull forms. These hull forms often need a lot more drive and the hull is the limiting factor in how fast or how close-winded the boat will be. The yawl or ketch rig's lack of windward ability is less of a liability when placed on a hull that similarly lacks windward ability. Also, the ability of a ketch or yawl to carry more sail with less heeling moment also makes it a natural for a heavier hull form which often has comparatively little stability when compared to the amount of drive required to make a heavy boat move.

Much is made of the ketch or yawl's ability to be balanced to help with self-steering, to heave to, or the ability to simply sail under Jib and mizzen in a blow. This is one aspect that a traditional ketch or yawl has over a traditional sloop. It is not so true of modern sloops. Modern (especially fractional) sloops can be easily depowered and that reduces the need to reef. With modern slab reefing gear, reefing is far more easily accomplished than dropping the mainsail to the deck on a yawl or ketch. In a properly designed sloop balance is just not all that hard to achieve.

The performance of all three rigs, both on broad reaches and in lighter air, can be improved by the ability to carry kites of different types.

In terms of comfort at sea, ketch and yawl rigs push the weight of the spars closer to the ends of the boat which can increase pitch angles, albeit, while perhaps slowing pitching rates. The taller rigs of a sloop tend to increase roll angles while slowing roll rates.

Then there are structural issues. It is often difficult to properly stay a ketch or yawl rig as the mainmast backstay often need to be routed around the mizzen and the forward load component of the mizzen if often taken by the top of the mainmast. It is also often difficult to get proper aft staying on the mizzen of a ketch or yawl as well. These structural issues are particularly pronounced on Yawls where the mast is so far aft in the boat that on a traditional boat it is hard to get adequate staying base widths.

Many of the early fiberglass yawls were very poorly engineered. I heard the story of how the Bristol 40 became a yawl. It seems that Clint Pearson (who owned Bristol) had started to build a Bristol 40 sloop on order for a particular customer. As the boat was nearing completion the prospective owner bailed out leaving Mr. Pearson with bit of a problem. Almost at the same time came an enquiry about the availability of a Bristol 40 yawl for prompt delivery for a different person. Without hesitation the potential buyer was told that they happened to have a yawl that was almost finished and would be available in a few weeks. Bristol was building a 24 foot Corsair and they took a mast and rigging from a Corsair and used that for the mizzen. A block of wood was glassed onto the hull for a mast step and a hole cut in the deck for the mast to go through and Voila- the Bristol 40 yawl. Several more were built like that and they quickly proved problematic. Eventually the design was engineered to solve the problems that occurred on the first few yawls.

You often hear people say that yawls and ketches are simpler rigs to handle. I am not clear why that is assumed to be so as there are more sails to trim and more interaction between the individual sails. As on a sloop, you start trimming from the forward most sail moving aft. Also as on a sloop, fine tuning, small adjustments are made moving forward again to reduce downdraft interference between the sails. Sailed with the same degree of precision, a ketches and yawls require more fine tuning than a sloop but on the whole about the same amount of fine tuning as a cutter.

Anyway, in conclusion, if you are interested in sailing performance or ease of handling, a sloop rig makes more sense. To me the only justification for the yawl rig today is solely romantic charm, or a sense of history. I do not mean this to be a put down to those who love historic rigs, but for sheer sailing ability a yawl or ketch is a relic of another time, or an obsolete racing rule. Still, if you live in an area that is typically windier and you like traditional boats, then a ketch or yawl is an interesting albeit complicated rig.

Schooners

Schooners, more than any of the other fore and aft rigs, are really a series of rigs. They vary from the modern unstayed cat schooners (like the Freedom 39), to Fenger's experiments with wishbone schooners, to the traditional two-masted gaff schooners, to the early 19th century square topsail schooners, to the knockabout and the staysail schooners of the late 1930's, to the 4, 5 and 6 masted cargo schooners of the early 20th century. Each of these has distinct advantages and disadvantages.

By definition a schooner is a rig with two or more masts with the after mast(s) equal or taller than the forward mast(s).

Schooners, in one form or another, have been around for a very long time. Like most multi-masted rigs, they evolved in the days when breaking a rig into a lot of smaller sails made sense. Multi-masted rigs resulted in a rig with a greater number of smaller low aspect ratio sails. These proportionately smaller sails reduced stretch within the individual sails, made it easier to manhandle the sails and make sail shape adjustments. This was a time before winches, light weight- low stretch sailcloth, high strength- low stretch line, and low friction blocks. These proportionately smaller sails powered up less in a gust. While multiple small sails are less efficient, the hulls of the era were so inefficient that this loss of sail efficiency did not hurt much.

Multiple masts, along with bowsprits and boomkins, allowed boats to have more sail area that could be spread out closer to the water. In a time when stone internal ballasting was the norm, this was important as it maximized the amount of drive while minimizing heeling moments. Multiple masts meant more a little more luff length and more luff length meant greater drive force on a reach or beat. But multiple masts also meant more weight aloft and much more aerodynamic drag increasing heel some and greatly reducing the relative efficiency of the sails. Multi mast rigs also have the issue of downdraft interference, meaning that each sail is operating in the disturbed and turbulent air of the sails upwind of it, which also greatly reduces the efficiency of multi mast rigs. .

Schooners are best suited for burdensome vessels with comparatively little stability. They are best used in sailing venues where they predominantly will be reaching between 30 degrees above a beam reach to approximately 50 degrees below a beam reach. Because of the geometry and inherently high drag of the schooner rig they are not very good rigs upwind or down. Upwind, the large amount of aerodynamic drag from the spars and, in stayed rigs, rigging, coupled with the typically low aspect ratio sails typical of a schooner rig, and the down-drafting problems of a multi-masted rig, results in very poor windward performance. When compared with Yawls, which can drop their mizzen when beating without much consequence, a Schooner's primary drive sail(s) are acting in the wind shadow of the entire rig.

Probably the highest upwind efficiency is achieved in schooners with lug foresails. On a schooner, lug foresails are not actually 'lug rigged'. In the case or a schooner, the term 'lug foresail' means a gaff foresail (not a jib) that foresail that over laps the mainsail in much the same manner as a Genoa over laps the mast on a modern rig. This rig was common in American working craft in the 19th century partially because there was no boom to deal with on the working deck. It was used on such boats as the yacht America's original rig, Tancook Whalers and on many Atlantic coast pilot boats. Lug foresails need to be tacked around the mast in much the same manner as a Genoa is today.

Downwind the problem of downdraft interference is a major problem as well. The large mainsail again tends to block the air on the sails forward of it and schooners really do not have a tall forward mast on which to fly a meaningful spinnaker. While there are all kinds of kites that can be flown from a schooner, and early working schooners often carried square sails on their foremasts, most of these patches really come into their own on a reach.

I once had a great conversation with Olin Stephens about schooners. Someone had asked why the schooner rig had died out. In the course of the conversation it was pretty much concluded that as hull forms became increasingly efficient, the schooner rig could not keep up. Great efforts at all kinds of rig improvements were tried but in the end the inherent limitations of the schooner rig was ill matched to the improved hull forms of the early 20th century.

Today, traditional schooners are wonderful to look at relics of a bygone age. Traditional forms of the schooner rig are complicated rigs that are expensive to build and maintain. They generally lack the strength of staying of a more modern rig. They are limited in their ability to beat to windward, hove to, or go dead downwind. They require greater skill to sail well and are pretty labor intensive to sail in shifting conditions. Still there is nothing like the romance of gaff topsail schooner with a bone in her teeth.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I think the biggest factor, be it rig selection, boat size, etc., is how you actually intend to use the boat. If you're going to be in a position where you have to sail (well offshore), then the multiple sail rigs make sense. If you're coastal, then they aren't as necessary.

If you're obsessed with that extra half-knot of boat speed, then the more choices, the better. If it doesn't matter to you, then a standard sloop rig is fine.

I like the fractional rig for singlehanding, because the smaller jib is easier to deal with, since it's not your "power" sail. And, except for going downwind, it's a bit faster (faster definitely being relative). That said, being a coastal cruiser, I'm content with my masthead rig. I have been caught offshore in a bit of a blow at night, but I had reefed down the main before dark, so I was ready.

Figure out how you'll really use the boat, and buy one that will do the best job at that.


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## BI40 (Jul 23, 2011)

Great informational thread!

Having sailed several different rigs, I think nothing goes to weather like a little Folkboat (full keel and 3/4 rig), but having said that, I don't find myself needing to point within 5 degrees of apparent wind very often.

I do prefer rigs with mizzens though, it's much easier to shorten sail while keeping the center of balance fairly close to the design specs ...leading to an easily balanced boat.

While all the "extra stuff" above does add to windage, managing smaller sails is critical, especially as the boat size grows and the number of crew does not. For light air, broad reaches (a typical good cruising day), there's nothing like flying a mizzen staysail ...like a spnniker without all the work. Had one on a little CD 30 ketch ...although at 30', a split sail plan was a bit of a waste.

My wife and I sailed a 52' Irwin cutter / ketch for years and we loved the rig. With all sails roller-furling and loose-footed, handling was a snap, performance may have suffered slightly but it was not noticeable. (With a main mast at 64'-8" + masthead "stuff", we never touched anything ...other than the overhanging limbs along the Dismal Swamp.)

We are now enjoying our first yawl ...I think it's mizzen is built for hanging a burgee or keeping Solaris' manners in check while at anchor ...we'll see.

As to sheeting a mizzen; after creating a good slot between the head and main sails, just sheet the mizzen a bit flatter than the main. That will be a good starting point.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I spent 7 years as a liveaboard cruiser on a 38 ft ketch before moving to my current boat a 44 ft cutter. I would have preferred a ketch rig on my new boat as the ability to drop the main when it starts to blow and still have a balanced boat is great. You take a performance hit but if you are a cruiser 'WHO CARES' just leave earlier if you want to get there before someone else. 

However I like the cutter rig and use the staysail and reefed main only a lot out in the Eastern Caribbean when it blows hard. 

I managed both single handed with out a problem with autopilot help.


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

Ok, this is kinda scary. I'm about to say something unpopular and have fifty people tell you (and me) that I'm either a moron or a lunatic.
The best cruising rig is the modern westernized version of the Chinese Junk rig.
The modern junk rig was developed by the same person who invented wind vane self steering, Blondie Hasler. Both developments were for the same reason: to prevent crew exhaustion on the open seas.
You can reef a junk rig in seconds. Literally. You don't have to reef for the weather forecast: when you see the squall coming across the water at you, reef as much as you want right then. If you decide you undershot, drop another panel or two.
You never have to leave the cockpit or go on the foredeck except to anchor.
The mast is free standing. There is nothing to damage in a gybe except your skull. You can square the sail right off on a run (no stays) so accidental gybes are very rare: you'd have to be sailing almost 90° by the lee.
Blondie's original flat sails didn't go upwind well in light airs, but Arne Kverneland in Norway has developed cambered junk sails that are fully competitive with western sloops. 
You can make your own sails.
The junk sail is the easiest sail on earth for short tacks like in narrow channels. Just put the helm over, there are no lines to tend.
Arne has generously put all his research in documents which are available at the Yahoo Junkrig group and at the Junk Rig Association web site linked in my signature.
Jeff


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

junkrig....

YOU"RE full of it!........

Ok, now that that is out of the way, you do have some points. I would also say, that there is probably NOT a BEST rig per say, ALL of plus's and minus's!

marty


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

blt2ski said:


> junkrig....
> 
> YOU"RE full of it!........
> 
> ...


I'm going to have to grant you that one... no, the. SECOND one...


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

*oh, and btw*

Couple things I left out...

The sail on my avatar is reefed to about 60% showing

Most junk rigs carry very large sails for light winds because people tend to reef about the bottom of force 4.

When you reef a junk sail your CoE doesn't move to speak of.

You can reef clear down to the top 2 panels, about the equivalent of just a storm jib, and still be balanced.

Finally, everybody will look at you like you're stark staring crazy! :laugher :laugher :laugher


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I've never had the chance to sail on a junk rigged boat. Would love to do so some day.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

Thanks to everybody for all the great input! See, this is why I absolutely love these forums. Everybody is so ready to share their experience with us newbies. When I mention taking off for truly remote places, you all give me advice about things to think about, what works and what doesn't, even things I should take along and never bat an eye. My friends and family all think I'm nuts!

Now, back to the subject. I have gotten many pro's and con's from the responses so far. Cost of maintenance came up and yes, I would like to keep my maintenance costs as low as I can. Determining how I will use the boat. Well, initially, I will be coastal cruising, making longer and longer trips. I want to visit places from Canada down to South America, including the Carribean before attempting my first ocean crossing alone. I'm not really worried about speed. I'm the guy most people pass on the road because I'm kicked back, cruise control on, and enjoying the scenery. I might wink at the passing cutie IF I'm not distracted by some natural scenic beauty. 

The type of hull design that really interests me are the full keeled, ussually heavy displacement boats such as the Hans Christian 33. I have fell in love with that boat! I have to say that the boats that ussually catch my eye generally have cutter rigs so that is probably what I'll end up with but I occasionally see a ketch that really draws my attention. 

One other thing to Junkrig. You make it sound so easy to handle. I must say though that I don't wany to have my butt grow into the cockpit cushions so sail handling will be some of my activity to keep the blood pumping. I am curious if the battens in those sails have much tendency to chafe. 

And now I'm curious as to why I never see gaff rigged boats on the market...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Dean101 said:


> Thanks to everybody for all the great input! See, this is why I absolutely love these forums. Everybody is so ready to share their experience with us newbies. When I mention taking off for truly remote places, you all give me advice about things to think about, what works and what doesn't, even things I should take along and never bat an eye. My friends and family all think I'm nuts!
> 
> Now, back to the subject. I have gotten many pro's and con's from the responses so far. Cost of maintenance came up and yes, I would like to keep my maintenance costs as low as I can. Determining how I will use the boat. Well, initially, I will be coastal cruising, making longer and longer trips. I want to visit places from Canada down to South America, including the Carribean before attempting my first ocean crossing alone. I'm not really worried about speed. I'm the guy most people pass on the road because I'm kicked back, cruise control on, and enjoying the scenery. I might wink at the passing cutie IF I'm not distracted by some natural scenic beauty.
> 
> ...


Dean,

Blondie Hasler was the man responsible for kicking off the interest in the Junk Rig amongst European sailors. He put one into his folk boat 'Jester' which he proceeded to sail across the Atlantic in the first solo transatlantic race won by Francis Chichester in his much larger Gypsy Moth III. Jester came in second and Hasler was famously recorded as saying that she was so easy to sail that he did the entire passage in his carpet slippers and dressing gown. (or words to that effect). All control could be adjusted from below deck as could she be steered. With only the one sail to worry about he simply never had the need to go out on deck.

Blondie Hasler

Herbert Hasler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Whoops ... hit post too soon ....

Now yes, you will have higher maintenance costs if you buy a ketch/yawl/schooner but reality is the main cost will have already been borne by the first owner. Provided the rig is in half way decent condition when you buy I doubt the maintenance would be prohibitive (compared to a sloop) unless you happened to lose the whole rig. Indeed one would have to wonder whether or not a ketch might have lower resale than a sloop so in fact could be a good buy if you are not so worried about performance. (refer back to reaching)

Now as for Hans Christian ..... I do kind of like boats of the Bob Perry Valiant/Baba etc era into which the HC might be placed although BP did not design the HCs, at least as they ended up. To my mind the HC goes too far into the traditional style revival and ends up a little cartoonish. If I was to choose I'd look out for a decent Baba 40. They are fabulous boats, less trad than the HC but still have the features you desire. In a similar mould Stan Huntingford's Passport 42 is not a bad boat either.


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## junkrig (Jun 3, 2011)

tdw said:


> I've never had the chance to sail on a junk rigged boat. Would love to do so some day.


There's going to be a JRA rally down kinda-sorta in your neighborhood on Dec 26. Nelson NZ area. They always welcome visitors - rally is kind of stretching it. Think "cruise with friends."

You can check the JRA site link in my sig for a little more info.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

One comment about discussions earlier in the thread regarding tacking with a cutter rig. We have a cutter rigged sloop with RF on both headsails. When we tack we tack the forestaysail first while leaving the staysail sheeted. This allows the high clew genny to slide along the staysail thru the slot and as soon as it is thru we release the staysail sheet. Makes tacking easy and the only time we have a hangup is in light winds.


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

It's hard not to love the lines of a boat like this.

1972 Ingrid Ketch Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

In some ways, I think that the rig on any given boat is the same as a dress on any given woman. Each dress can flatter her in a different way, bringing out different attributes to catch the eye.

And if this boat is cartoonish, call me Daffy!

1977 Hans Christian 34 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I do realize that each person has their own opinions on the looks of the more traditional looking boats, but I just love their looks. The Baba 30 and 35 is on my short list also, by the way. Many of the boats on my list will most likely be out of my financial reach unless I can find just a really great deal. I'm ussually not that lucky but you never know.

I do appreciate all the tips on handling the various rigs we've discussed. What about the gaff rigs? I haven't really seen any during my searches. Are they just less efficient or more expensive than marconi rigs?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Dean101 said:


> It's hard not to love the lines of a boat like this.
> 
> 1972 Ingrid Ketch Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
> 
> ...


Oh man ... don't start on gaffers ... that will realy bring the nutters out of the woodwork ... 

My take on a gaffer is that they are somewhat unwieldy and particuarly in very light winds bloody noisy. OTOH as I mentioned earlier a gaffer lit up on a broad reach is something to behold. Sydney Harbour is home to a boat (in fact a class of boat) named Ranger. Beautiful things they are too. One afternoon I was heading down harbour in my old masthead 28'er and I tell you I could not keep up with Ranger on a reach. It is , just like ketchs and schooners the one point of sail on which they excel. This is a Ranger, not Ranger herself ...










That said there have been a few gaffers built in recent times that were by no means slow. The Bob Perry designed Jakartan is quite capable of picking up her skirts and Perry also recently designed a very pretty and I'm told quite handy small gaffer. Mike Peyton, the famed English yachting cartoonist (Mike Peyton Cartoons | Sailing Cartoons | Nautical Postcards | Yachting Prints) built himself a modern gaffer a few years back though I don't know who designed her. If you watch this video you'll appreciate that gaffers both old and new can get a bustle on, Mike Peytons boat appears at 1:07. (Below is Jakartan and BP's little gaff sloop.)

KTL 24 Gaffers and smacks « Keep Turning Left



















and for your viewing pleasure ... a Mike Peyton cartoon.










Anywho, sorry .... bit of a wander off topic there. An 'oh look a bunny rabbit' moment. 

But, it maybe does illustrate that sailing is a pretty broad church and unless you want a rating dreamboat you have many avenues to explore.

Explanation ... re HC. Probably "cartoon" was not the right word. More that they are to me trying too hard to look traditional and end up looking somewhat cliched, right down to the fake plank lines moulded into the glass.


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## Hannoush (May 3, 2008)

Interesting article comparing ketch vs cutter :

Ketch vs Cutter | Blue Horizon Sailing Blog


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## Ilenart (Jul 23, 2007)

Dean101 said:


> The type of hull design that really interests me are the full keeled, ussually heavy displacement boats such as the Hans Christian 33. I have fell in love with that boat! I have to say that the boats that ussually catch my eye generally have cutter rigs so that is probably what I'll end up with but I occasionally see a ketch that really draws my attention.


If that is the type of boat / hull design you are looking at it really does'nt matter what type of rig it has as the boat's performance will be limited by the design. As you suggest, you might as well go for a cutter. A sloop rig and / or fractional rig would be pretty pointless on a full length keel / heavy displacement. Suggest you review / research some of Jeff H's posts that discuss these issues.

In your original post you also talked about a boat size around 32-38ft and for this length of boat I do not think I would bother with a ketch rig. The added maintenance, reduced performance and more complicated rig soon becomes a hassle.

Ilenart

PS If you have'nt already suggest you check out a Tayana 37.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

junkrig said:


> I'm going to have to grant you that one... no, the. SECOND one...


So the first point, is you have a junk rig, 2nd point, you're full of it! KEWL!:laugher:laugher:laugher

Now I realize I was supposed to say moron, and something else per your quote

Anyway,

None the less, good disCUSSion of types of rigs, no matter how the cookie is sliced and baked, it is still a cookie.........which is calling me down stairs I might add!

Marty


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

TDW, no offense taken on the cartoon crack. They do go to great lengths to produce a boat with traditional lines and features, down to the clinker hull. but they build them from modern materials. Still, I do like the looks.

The Tayana 37 is also on my list. This may be one of those boats that would be a financial stretch for me but I actually like it almost as much as the HC's. The Cape Dory's are interesting also. I have seen several boats that are under 30' that I like but get conflicting information as to the headroom they have. I'm not buying a boat I can't stand up in and I'm 6'2". The Bristol Channel Cutters seem like a great choice in a smaller boat but it falls in that catagory of conflicting info. 

I'm impressed at the amount of information I'm getting on various rigs. Is there any aspect of deciding what's best for me that I may have failed to ask about? Does anybody repair/replace their own rigging by splicing their own wire?


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Dean, 
I guess I just wanted to clarify what I had said. Cartoon was unfair. I didn't include the Tayana on my short list but they should most certainly be there. I do have to say that sub 40' there is absolutely no way I would go ketch etc. Have to be a sloop, preferably with removeable inner forestay. 
Bristol Channel Cutters are wonderful looking boats but in my humble opinion you have to be a bit touched to want to own one. Generally speaking they are expensive compared to something that does not carry the Pardey's seal of approval. Why pay more simply because a famous couple have owned one ? 
Really, to find what you want when you are on a budget you just need to look out for a relatively anonymous design that might just be going for a song. There are of course certain basic to look out for presuming you don't want to completely rebuild the thing but there are plenty of good honest designs, quite capable of ocean passages but are not so well known and not so expensive.


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## Strait Shooter (Sep 28, 2011)

I'll throw my 2 cents in. I own an Ingrid Orca with a Bill Crealock designed cutter rig executed by Port Townsend Rigging.

I tack under full sail by leaving the Staysail sheeted as mentioned previously. The 120 genoa just needs to be backwinded a bit and it slides right through. I single hand most of the time and don't have a problem (well MOST of the time anyway). I also have running backs that get thrown into the mix. 

As an aside, I don't like booms on staysails .......... Silly things


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

After reading through this thread again, let me change tacks. Given that all the rigs have their pro's and con's, let me present a scenario. Let's say that I buy a 36' boat that has had the standing and running rigging completely replaced just prior to sale. Assuming that I put an average amount of stess on the rig, not pushing but not coddling her, run into the occasional heavy weather, and cruise coastal areas with passages in between, what kind of safe usable life could I expect out of rigging?

To take it a step further, is anyone here able to break it down between cutter and ketch rig as far as cost of replacement? I'm still curious as to whether or not building new rigging myself would be viable. I'm sure I could save money on labor but can wire connections be made just as safe, accurate, and dependable by an owner as a qualified rigger could do? 

Has anyone noticed any differences in the lifespan of the wire itself compared to the connection components or the chainplates?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

*Some good questions*



Dean101 said:


> After reading through this thread again, let me change tacks. Given that all the rigs have their pro's and con's, let me present a scenario. Let's say that I buy a 36' boat that has had the standing and running rigging completely replaced just prior to sale. Assuming that I put an average amount of stess on the rig, not pushing but not coddling her, run into the occasional heavy weather, and cruise coastal areas with passages in between, what kind of safe usable life could I expect out of rigging?
> 
> To take it a step further, is anyone here able to break it down between cutter and ketch rig as far as cost of replacement? I'm still curious as to whether or not building new rigging myself would be viable. I'm sure I could save money on labor but can wire connections be made just as safe, accurate, and dependable by an owner as a qualified rigger could do?
> 
> Has anyone noticed any differences in the lifespan of the wire itself compared to the connection components or the chainplates?


The useable life is going to vary depending on factors like length of the season and what kind of use you make of it. After 10 years of seasonal use you should have no problem, assuming you are going to continue using it as before. At that point if you were heading offshore you might want to change. You can tell a lot by visual inspection and a professional rigger's inspection is not costly.

Doing your own rigging is entirely feasible. There are two ways to attach the fittings to the wire - either with compression fittings that require special equipment to do and with mechanical fittings (Norseman originally but newer ones from StaLok and Hayn Hi-Mod seem like improvements). These you can put on with basic tools. Mechanical fittings cost more than compression fittings - have a look at a West Marine catalog to compare. When we replaced our rigging we had did it with the mast up by ourselves and had the rigger put compression fittings on the top. We put mechanican fittings on the bottom. The latter can be reused if they have not been damaged (hard to imagine how that might happen).

Really though, the labor costs for rigging are not very high because there are not that many hours in the actual work. If a rigger comes to your boat to measure and then comes back to install it can get pricey. For ordinary boat usage where you have the mast down every so often, I think that if I wanted new rigging I would take the old off the boat and take it to a rigger (or an online store like riggingonly.com) and have them make up a new set for you to reinstall before the mast goes back up.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

I've done my own rigging for forty years and I've been amazed at what some are willing to spend. I know many others that also send out their shrouds or measurements for replacements that they self-install. Some get into difficult chainplate repairs, but I've been fortunate with my 38 year old external chainplates that I can observe and maintain easily. Some would not favor the external chainplates due to upwind close hauled performance limitations, but that's just another of the many compromises to select. Take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## Dean101 (Apr 26, 2011)

CaptainForce said:


> I've done my own rigging for forty years and I've been amazed at what some are willing to spend. I know many others that also send out their shrouds or measurements for replacements that they self-install. Some get into difficult chainplate repairs, but I've been fortunate with my 38 year old external chainplates that I can observe and maintain easily. Some would not favor the external chainplates due to upwind close hauled performance limitations, but that's just another of the many compromises to select. Take care and joy, Aythya crew


CaptainForce, you have touched on yet another question I was contemplating. I was going to wait to ask this after I finally buy my boat since it may be mute but since you mentioned it...

I've been following the thread concerning the loss of s/v Triumph and a broken chainplate was mentioned as causing the deck leak that allowed water to enter the cabin, not to mention the loss of a stay. I've come to view chainplates as one of the most critical parts of the rigging since they are generally tucked away in the hull. On some boats I've looked at the chainplates are plainly visable inside the cabin. Others are not and the reviews on those particular boats state that they are difficult to get to. I translate that to mean they have probably never been inspected or replaced.

My question? I was pondering the advantages/disadvantages of having external chainplates rather than those that are buried in fiberglass. It seems to me that having them in an easily accessible location, whether exposed internally or externally, would greatly increase my confidence in the condition of the rigging since I could easily inspect and, if necessary, replace them.

To apply that logic to my situation, if I find a boat that I just fall in love with and the chainplates happen to be difficult to get to, can they be moved to the outside of the hull? Keep in mind that the hull designs I've been looking at are not known to point well anyway so a few degrees off the wind would be an acceptable compromise for me. For all I know, that type of modification may be routine.

Have a great day.


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