# Boat Angel



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Has anyone bought a boat from eBay from boat angel? What was the experience like?
I posted on another thread my experience which is summarized as follows:_Buyer won the bid and had to pay before getting the address to see the boat. Buyer was too far away so I visited the boat for him. The boat had no interior, engine or sails so it was not worth transporting.
The buyer abandoned the boat lost his payment and luckily was not sued by the original owner to remove his boat.
_​The rule that you have to bid on a boat and pay in full without seeing it first makes it a very tough deal so I wonder if anyone has been a happy buyer.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Generally, buying a boat unseen is unwise at best. I'd imagine that one or two have been lucky and gotten a decent boat, but I'd bet that the majority of buyers are not so lucky.


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## SPC (Nov 26, 2009)

Whatever you do, don't give the seller money until you are comfortable with the purchase. It really doesn't matter that they set purchasing criteria in the ad -- must send full purchase price in 48 hours for example. Just don't do it until you and your surveyor have the opportunity to check the boat. You risk a negative mark and/or you might decide to pay the seller's fee if the deal falls through. If the boat was misrepresented, just walk away.


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## MARC2012 (Mar 17, 2008)

Most states allow some to back out or be refunded.Don't know if that is applicable here or not.Had a blind date once,kind of wish I had been blind .Skd.Can't imagine why anyone would buy a pig in a poke,IMHO marc


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## Boatsmith (May 3, 2009)

Boat Angel is selling low cost donated boats. Expecting to get a good boat that is not in need of major work is not realistic. Their ads set forth their policies very clearly, if you bid you may win and you have now bought a boat. This is not a normal yacht purchase where you submit an offer subject to conditions is not part of the deal. They offer some boats that are well worth their selling price but it is certainly not a risk free situation. Their boats are sold very clearly on an as-is/where-is basis.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

Before doing business with them, I suggest that you see where the money goes by looking here.

I would also suggest reading about who they are by brushing up on their constitution, available here.

When you win an auction for one of their boats,


> _AN ADDITIONAL $169.00 (processing fee) is added to the final bid price._


Items are sold "As Is Where Is" which is defined as follows;


> What does it mean?
> 
> We are miles away from our donations. The donors send us all paperwork by mail, including an information sheet which they sign the form with a Power of Attorney giving us and the people we sell them to Power to Transfer the ownership and move the items.
> 
> ...


Note that I am neither promoting nor critiquing them, just suggesting that you be aware of with whom you may be doing business.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

MARC2012 said:


> Most states allow some to back out or be refunded.Don't know if that is applicable here or not.Had a blind date once,kind of wish I had been blind .Skd.Can't imagine why anyone would buy a pig in a poke,IMHO marc


Coulod you explain your basis for this. I would suspect you are confusing state car lemon laws with a boat purchase. I believe actually in most states, certainly MA, you sign a contract to buy, and after any continguies expire, you own it. Especially once the seller rhas your money.


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## SPC (Nov 26, 2009)

I believe that most if not all states allow you to change your mind on real estate purchases within 72 hours or some such. I don't think that will apply to boats but check your state laws.

I will reiterate that you should determine the conditions with which you are comfortable. Fine, if you win you have agreed to the contract they specified. Big deal. Sure, if they are in the same town, maybe you could be sued but even then you can only be sued for damages. They can not force you to buy the boat. The only damages that I see would be the Ebay fees and I'm not sure how many apply for a relisting.

If you are the winning bidder, tell them what you are willing to do. For example, arrange for a local survey ASAP and then you will make a decision. If that is unacceptable, then they can list it again or try the next highest bidder. You should pay the fees that they incur. 

Frankly, if they will not agree to a local survey done within the week, then you should walk regardless.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

SPC said:


> I believe that most if not all states allow you to change your mind on real estate purchases within 72 hours or some such...


Yikes, you ever buy a house?

Name one.


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## MARC2012 (Mar 17, 2008)

Stated not certain if applicable.marc


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SPC said:


> I believe that most if not all states allow you to change your mind on real estate purchases within 72 hours or some such.......


I think you are confusing the right to back out of a refinance of your own home. Banks will also hold the funds until that time passes.


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## SPC (Nov 26, 2009)

California
Consumer Transactions with Statutory Contract Cancellation Rights: Legal Guide K-6 - California Department Of Consumer Affairs

My neighbor, an attorney, does the time share trips and immediately agrees to purchase so they will leave him alone on his short holiday. He then cancels purchase when he gets home. It's hard to pick the good guy and bad guy in that scenario.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Boatsmith said:


> Boat Angel is selling low cost donated boats. Expecting to get a good boat that is not in need of major work is not realistic. Their ads set forth their policies very clearly, if you bid you may win and you have now bought a boat. This is not a normal yacht purchase where you submit an offer subject to conditions is not part of the deal. They offer some boats that are well worth their selling price but it is certainly not a risk free situation. Their boats are sold very clearly on an as-is/where-is basis.


Sorry, but I'm with Boatsmith on this one. BoatAngel is very clear in their conditions, and if you're expecting a "charity boat" to be in great shape, then you have totally unrealistic expecations.

When I was boat shopping, I looked at some of their ads. I refused to consider any boat that wasn't geographically close enough to go and inspect.

In the end, I chose another boat being sold privately. Due to the economic downturn, there are oodles of "fixer-uppers" being sold privately that the sellers would be glad to have you aboard for an inspection, and that would likely be geographically near the buyer.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

SPC said:


> California
> Consumer Transactions with Statutory Contract Cancellation Rights: Legal Guide K-6 - California Department Of Consumer Affairs
> 
> My neighbor, an attorney, does the time share trips and immediately agrees to purchase so they will leave him alone on his short holiday. He then cancels purchase when he gets home. It's hard to pick the good guy and bad guy in that scenario.


Not really. Your neighbor has just gone from duppee to duper. Two wrongs don't make a right, etc, etc.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

What's been posted here from Angel Boat is pretty clear. I wouldn't buy from them on Ebay, but I can't fault them. I guess one tries to buy something at pennies on the dollar and you enter the risk v reward game.


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## lickingcardboard (Oct 21, 2010)

BOAT ANGLE does not sell anything, yo Will get a BOS from the one that donates the boat and you will get a receipt from BOAT ANGLE for the Fund you give them for "said" boat, but "said" boat will never be in the name of BOAT ANGLE. 

I was on Ebay and bid $794.87 on a 1972 Westerly, was just being A$$ seeing the $1.01 to $1.02 bidding at the time, yes i paid them thee bid price the boat was in Brick NJ, she was sailable and she was worth the price and more, but she was never in the name of BOAT ANGLE, there misleading and hard to get more info from, so i don't even look at there boats any more.


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## SPC (Nov 26, 2009)

Yes, I have purchased houses in Texas (1978), Missouri (1984 and 1990) and California (2000). I have a high credit score and a 468 on Ebay at 100% (Chatmanx). I have also bought and sold lots of cars, all for cash -- it's a hobby. I'm not suggesting that anyone screw anyone over. I'm just trying to help a possible Ebay buyer understand their legal and practical options. Especially their responsibility for "real damages" if the deal falls through. 

And yes, I am probably especially pessimistic about the "power" of contracts today. I was in Yolo Superior Court this morning to set a trial date. The attorneys of both parties created a contract in mediation that the other party has decided to ignore. So, we are suing them at our financial loss to enforce a contract that they signed in mediation. The mediation, of course, occurred because the other party ignored an earlier contractual agreement. 

If you have been in this type of situation, then you know that contracts are not what you first thought they were when you, as an honest person, signed your name as an adult to a long list of promises. I think that is especially true with Ebay because the buyer is the one person on the entire planet most interested in the product -- highest bidder. As the only person bringing cash into the transaction and the one person willing to bring the most cash into the transaction, the buyer has a great deal of power and the seller has a huge reason to make the deal happen. 

The bottom-line is do not lay your money down if you're not satisfied with the deal -- ever. You have legal and practical options. That's all.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

lickingcardboard said:


> BOAT ANGLE does not sell anything, yo Will get a BOS from the one that donates the boat and you will get a receipt from BOAT ANGLE for the Fund you give them for "said" boat, but "said" boat will never be in the name of BOAT ANGLE.
> 
> I was on Ebay and bid $794.87 on a 1972 Westerly, was just being A$$ seeing the $1.01 to $1.02 bidding at the time, yes i paid them thee bid price the boat was in Brick NJ, she was sailable and she was worth the price and more, but she was never in the name of BOAT ANGLE, there misleading and hard to get more info from, so i don't even look at there boats any more.


Did you take possession of the boat?
Am I correct in that you had to pay the full amount bid plus 169 before you got the address to see the boat?


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

The buyer is at significant risk if they have to pay before seeing the boat.
What may not be really evident is that the seller is probably at significant risk also.
The reason BA give a free depth finder or whatever other little gadget is not out the generosity of their heart.
They are interpreting the donation laws and sort of saying that because they are a charity and _substantially _upgraded the vehicle the seller can take the full book value of the vehicle as a deduction rather than the sale price.
They also say that they are not accountants and their paperwork will be legal which I suspect it is and only reflect the sale price and if you take the higher deduction you are on your own.

Then chances of the IRS demanding the list of sellers every 6.5 years and contacting them all is probably going to depend on how much money the IRS thinks it can make by going through the trouble.


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## dman535 (Apr 22, 2009)

I bought my Catalina 27 off ebay. I found out where the boat was located, I called the yard owner and asked if I could look at it. So I had the opportunity to scope the vessel out before I bid on it. I ended up getting the boat for $1300 and some back storage fees. What was listed in the auction wasn't accurate - so I talked with the Boat Angel people to get the price down a bit. This is probably a rare case for these, the boat was in pretty decent shape and it turned out to be a great cruising boat. The real key is trying to do some investigative work before bidding.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

dman535 said:


> I bought my Catalina 27 off ebay. I found out where the boat was located,


How did you find out what yard it was in?


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## dvdcnl (Apr 9, 2000)

*boat angel*

I bought a Columbia 29 from b a back in 04. Had the dickins getting paperwork so I could register it because the donor didn't give them any. Finally had to demand they give me papers or my money back. Finally they got the donor to send the paperwork. I think they want papers before they will accept a donation now. BTW, the boat needed fixing up a little but the A4 ran good, had good sails and the price was right. I bought a pig in a poke but it turned out ok. Don't know if I'd do it again tho.


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## dman535 (Apr 22, 2009)

Here were the before pics:
Catalina 27

These are the result after a few months work and a couple grand:
http://www.opus45.com/c27_pics/

The ebay listing for the boat showed the city it was sitting. I found there were only a couple of marinas in that city. Took a drive out and checked it out. I lucked out on this one as the boat was pretty well taken care of, and the owner was careful about storing the boat. All the sails, cushions, electronics etc were at his home. There were other boats on the lot that were left to rot full of water, sails on board - just nothing left to salvage.

Derek.-


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## ThumperJR (Feb 3, 2011)

I just started working with these guys so I wanted to comment. They keep the locations secret so people are not stealing things off the boats. If you want to view an item, you simply email brian through the auction and he will show the boat. They require all paperwork before they take a vessel, maybe that's new but they do it now. Untill they got me they only had the owners word to go by, most boats and jetski's "only need a battery" but have fried electrics or a ceased motor. I am a certified marine mechanic with over 10 years experence and I check out the mechanical condition of the boats now. They operate on a shoe string budget and do the best they can. If you have a question about a vessel just email them and they will anwer it, or show you the boat!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

ThumperJR said:


> .......They keep the locations secret so people *are* stealing things off the boats.......


Kind of unfortunate slip of the keyboard.

It does sound like you are allowing them to get better control of the process.


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## ThumperJR (Feb 3, 2011)

Minnewaska said:


> Kind of unfortunate slip of the keyboard.
> 
> It does sound like you are allowing them to get better control of the process.


Posting from my phone, thanks for pointing that out, its fixed.

I hope to make things go a little smoother. They have had a few issues that hopefully I will keep from repeating by giving them more information to place their auctions. But there will always be someone who thinks that they are getting a 100% perfect boat with a warranty. They try to be as honest as possible in their auctions and I think the pictures help that.


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## dman535 (Apr 22, 2009)

Are we talking about the same people? This place is based out of Arizona

Charity Boat Donations -Boat Donation Donate Boat - Donate Your Used Boat!

Their auctions are all over the country and most of them are not viewable, its says so right in the ebay auctions.

Derek.-



ThumperJR said:


> I just started working with these guys so I wanted to comment. They keep the locations secret so people are not stealing things off the boats. If you want to view an item, you simply email brian through the auction and he will show the boat. They require all paperwork before they take a vessel, maybe that's new but they do it now. Untill they got me they only had the owners word to go by, most boats and jetski's "only need a battery" but have fried electrics or a ceased motor. I am a certified marine mechanic with over 10 years experence and I check out the mechanical condition of the boats now. They operate on a shoe string budget and do the best they can. If you have a question about a vessel just email them and they will anwer it, or show you the boat!


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## ThumperJR (Feb 3, 2011)

that's not them. Sorry, i thought it was, its boats with causes that contacted me. I work with a local broker who handles their stuff down here in florida, all the stuff i mess with is small enough to put in the storage yard. The bigger stuff that stays at the donors house can't be veiwed. Sorry for the confusion.


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## carl762 (Jan 11, 2010)

Beautiful boat, Derek!!!! My best sailing buddy owns the same boat, in tall rig. He's a full time live-aboard. At 6'3" I can actually stand up down below. 

Not so on me humble little boat. I still love her.


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## kcrco (Sep 4, 2011)

Boatangel has been a great and reasonable site for looking for fixer-uppers. But latley the boats are getting rougher and the increase in the processing fee is ridiculous. I've been following you dailey, and bought several boats, since you came to Ebay which I believe was in 2002. With the new $249.00 processing fee it's time to take Boatangels off the favorite list.


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## kcrco (Sep 4, 2011)

Boatangel has been a great and reasonable site for looking for fixer-uppers. But latley the boats are getting rougher and the increase in the processing fee is ridiculous. I've been following you dailey, and bought several boats, since you came to Ebay which I believe was in 2002. With the new $249.00 processing fee it's time to take Boatangels off the favorite list.


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## MobiusALilBitTwisted (Jun 25, 2007)

I did the Boat Angel this one time, and i will never work with them again they dint put the donations in there name and the BOS is BA, but if there is a title it is from and in the name of the Donner and made me pull my hair out seeing as my home state wanted the title from BA, and my home state does not title boats.

The people i talked with where Kids and i mean 12 years old and they didn't know what was going on the only adult in the place, See i stooped in at there AZ office to get the papers and pay them there Graft, The only Adult there was not forth coming at all with the information they calmed at the time they would provide. 

After all the Trouble and misleading not to mention the Pure Bull Dung i got from them i will never again have any dealings with them.


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## weephee (Oct 25, 2008)

I bought my boat from them. With a little detective work, I found out where the boat was stored and talked to the marina owner. The description was dead on and I knew what I was getting into. Bought the 1977, 8.3 Columbia for $550. I live in Canada so I expect there was some additional risk for something to go wrong. When it came time to pay, Angel told me there was an additonal $500 owing for storage due to the marina, which was not indicated in the listing. When I objected they offered to negate the deal or drop their $169 fee. I agreed to the cancellation of the fee and payed angel the $550. As it turns out the owners paid the fee themselves and I ended up getting the boat for the ebay bid price. No trouble getting the title. Everything went smooth, even met the previous owners. I have now invested about $6000 in material and shipping and God knows how much in labour but I have a good solid boat which I know intimately, perhaps more intimate than I wanted. Took two years to get her launched and I feel I have a $10k boat . That's my experience and I would use them again.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Well, there's no ebay seller listed today under the names "boat angel" or "boatangel".

Tacking on a processing fee outside of the auction price should be against ebay rules, maybe that got them canned.

And not passing the title on to the "charity" and passing it through them, probably would violate IRS rules as well. Which generally require the valuation of a vehicle to be made after the charity has sold it--and the charity has been paid for it, not the donor.

Always so nice to read half a story.


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## weephee (Oct 25, 2008)

To hellosailer. The ebay name that we are discussing is boatangelministries. I just checked and they are in fact still listed and have several sailboats.
boatangelministries | eBay


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

Glad I didn't read this thread before I bought my boat from BA...


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

Squidd said:


> Glad I didn't read this thread before I bought my boat from BA...


It works out fine in some cases, and not so fine in others. The problem being that it's difficult to tell whether one is buying a pig in a poke. And the "good folks" at Boat Angel (along with their legal advisors) have made sure that there is little or no recourse for a buyer who feels burned once the money has changed hands. It reminds me a bit of people hawking "brand new TVs, still in the box" out of a van or off the back of a truck.


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

I agree, I think I lucked out with mine...back story being it was at a military base and the PO got transfered overseas and had to walk away from a sailable boat...

I was excited when I bid, nervous when I won, and extreamly anxious when I went out to pick 'er up.. and that was a low dollar risk...

I don't think I could have done it with a $20,000 or $10,000 or even a $5,000 investment without looking at it first...

Just saying with all the negative "cautions" posted I may have never given it a try...


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## SOVT (Feb 18, 2011)

I bought my boat thru them last summer. At the time they had a seven day inspection period after the close of the auction. If the description was not accurate they would refund the purchase price. in my case there was some minor descrepancies but nothing serious. I was looking for a structurally solid boat that needed refitting to my needs and I got one

In my case the purchase went smoothly. I was told the "kids" in the office were troubled kids that were straightening their lives out.


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## Kittypuke (Apr 6, 2012)

eBay will remove any negative feedback Boat Angel receives. It's weird. Also the CEO's are funneling money into their own businesses they own that are not charity's. Read the BBB info on them.
BOAT ANGEL DONATION PROGRAM MAY BE NAVIGATING TROUBLED WATERS - BBB News Center


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

And you're posting a link to a JANUARY 2009 article that makes no conclusions with no follow-up?

If the IRS hasn't taken action after three years, the odds are there haven't been any issues from their point of view.

Accusing eBay of sanitizing complaints about one particular seller is also a pretty heft allegation. Substantiating the claims with some current information would be a lot more impressive.


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## Kittypuke (Apr 6, 2012)

I replied to a question, I apologize if a failed to meet your personal expectations. As far as eBay simply watch boat angel recieve negatives, then watch them disappear. That is my proof.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"As far as eBay simply watch boat angel recieve negatives, then watch them disappear. That is my proof. "
You may have proved that eBay has a mechanism for revising feedback posts--but your statement reads that eBay was doctoring the ones for BoatAngel, as if they were in collusion with this specific seller. 

In fact it isn't hard to find the eBay official advice on this:
"Here's some information that might help


If you’re concerned about Feedback you received or Feedback you left for someone, you have a few options:
•If you’re a seller, you can send the buyer a Feedback revision request. This works well if they left the Feedback by mistake, or if you resolved the issue.
•To share your side of the story, reply to the Feedback.
•To change positive Feedback you left for someone, you can leave a follow-up comment to your original Feedback. However, the positive rating can’t be changed"

In other words, if someone posts negatvie feedback to ANY USER, that user can offer them incentive to revise the feedback and make the negative go away. That's not eBay revising history, that's a buyer and seller making their own deal. Any buyer and seller.

It sounds like all you have proven is that boatangelministries is making an effort to satisfy all customers, and is doing so well at this that they've convinced anyone posting negative feedback to take it away.

Of course, they could also be breaking legs and extorting the feedback corrections. Or having an angel carry out enlightenment.

But all you've found is old allegations and misunderstanding. Anyone who buys from a "ministry" and doesn't take the time to look up all the extensive terms and conditions that group is throwing in...maybe they've never been taught to look before they leap.

I'm not defending the ministry, just saying their policies ARE posted for all to see. What they do with their money, who cares? If they're breaking the law, the IRS will get them.


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## Kittypuke (Apr 6, 2012)

So no negative feedbacks since They started selling on eBay from 2003. Jesus must be their CEO. I have personally witnessed ebay customers with flawless extensive record leave negatives and then they disappear. I bought once from them and the boat wasn't even near the description. Left feedback and it was removed. Just because an attorney tells them how to make their listings bullet proof to literally any possible repercussion is no excuse. Yes Virginia, they do screw you on your feedback. eBay does not want to loose a huge money maker. 
I simply answered a question on a forum and true to form get attacked with bulls****. I apologize for posting in the tools forum so everyone can go back to eating Doritoes, sucking down 2 liters of Diet Pepsi and look for someone else to f**** with. WTF


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't care where the money goes either...

All I know is I paid several "hundred" for a boat that's going for several "thousand" elsewhere...

And if you read the fine print your right...there is nothing for you to complain about...so no negative fedback is a reasonable expectation...

If you don't like the way the deck is stacked...stay out of the game...


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## SlowButSteady (Feb 17, 2010)

The idea that an organization could sell several thousand used boats without *ANY* negative feedback just doesn't smell right to me. As Marcellus might have said, "Something's rotten in eBay."


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## harryparker59 (Aug 6, 2012)

I bought a Call 22 through Boat Angel. The deal was great. Easy to close and no hitches whatsoever Highly recommend. Bear in mind that they don't represent any condition or value. It's up to you to determine condition and value. All the same great folks.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

harryparker59 said:


> I bought a Call 22 through Boat Angel. The deal was great. Easy to close and no hitches whatsoever Highly recommend. Bear in mind that they don't represent any condition or value. It's up to you to determine condition and value. All the same great folks.


Did you have to pay before you were able to see the boat?
If after you saw the boat did you have the option to get your money back?


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## Sailbadthedinner (Sep 11, 2013)

Stay away from these guys. I won a auction in July and until now, Mid-September the Boat Angel still is unable to provide the proper legal documents needed to register the boat. It seems they may have sold me something they really didn't have any business doing so. Thank god, I paid via Paypal and after a lengthy claim I got my money returned. However I still lost transportation costs, preparation costs and most of the 2013 summer.


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## SOVT (Feb 18, 2011)

Sorry to hear that. My experience was good but that was several years ago. Good luck getting things straightened out. 
Mike


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## harryparker59 (Aug 6, 2012)

davidpm said:


> Did you have to pay before you were able to see the boat?
> If after you saw the boat did you have the option to get your money back?


I had the option to inspect the boat before I paid but I didn't have the opportunity. I paid for the boat sight unseen except for the description and pictures. I made arrangements with the owner to leave it where it was until spring (approx. 4 months) That's when I first saw the boat. Everything was as described or better. Best and easiest transaction I've ever made. I don't know if I could have gotten my money back or not. I think not. I was a yacht broker in my past and I know you would not in the open market.

Harry


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## cntryboy95608 (Apr 16, 2014)

i know this is a old thred but yes i did buy a boat from them on ebay! it went very smoth and as they said if i did not take the boat they would refund my money! so i bid! it eneded i sent the money i went and saw the boat it was alot better then they said so i called they sent all the paper work it was done ! then i saw a fishing boat it said it had not been started in 2 years so i thought wy not! i bid and won! i sent the money i went and saw the boat and wow it was a joke the motor was locked up the hull was beat to death the trailer was rusted so bad it would not tow anywhere, i called and i was shocked the money was refunded is 2 days! i will buy from them but remeber do it at a risk! wy would someone give away a great boat? you will have some work to do!


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## cs2340 (Apr 9, 2016)

this is an old thread....
my experience dealing with the guys at boat angel has been a nightmare. i lived about 800 miles from where the boat for auction was at. luckily i recognized the marina where the boat was. i had a friend that lived close and was able to go look at the boat for me. other than some minor nit pick repairs the boat was in great condition. so i started the bid. i called boat angel for some clarification and they were rude right off the bat. so my first impression was not great.
i ended up winning the auction, for a steal. paid within an hour of auction close. they emailed me what they call a bill of sale, along with the pick up info. they also fedex the paper work as well. i had to call, three times to get a tracking number. i ended up on the third time talking to the head guy. he explained that the paper work sent would just be copies of what had already been sent. he said he would send out the title after i claimed the boat. not something that was included in the ad! i explained that i was moving to the marina where the boat was at and was anxious to have all paperwork before i moved. he then said that there was nothing really important in the packet they fedexed and if i was in a rush just head down to the boat. that he would send the title when i picked up the boat..... well i got the package and it was just copies of the stuff emailed. pretty close to worthless as nothing is actually signed, everything is copies. it did include all the keys to the boat. i would call those important. at this point i had spent 40+ minutes on the phone with two different guys. fairly rude and it seemed there over all desire was to just get off the phone.
so i make the drive and claim the boat. the boat was all my friend had said and more. great marina, great location. the marina gives you the option of yearly contract, or month to month....oddly if you're living aboard it's cheaper to do the monthly versus the annual with live aboard tacked on. paid the slip rent. called boat angel told them i was happy with the boat. that i had made arrangements with the marina and paid for the slip. then the main guy starts giving me the run around. apparently a month to month lease is a problem for them. he wanted some sort of proof, so i told him, call the marina and verify. so he did. he calls me back and tells me the marina manager said i hadn't paid anything, which was a bold faced lie on his part. i called the manager and she had spoke with him, and did confirm that i had took over the slip and paid the rent. she was astounded about how bold the guy was to blatantly lie. so i call boat angel again and tell them to send the title to the marina..... once more the head guy, brian, starts giving me the run around. he wants to send it to my old address... HELLO.... i'd already told him i was moving to the marina! he says the title might get lost if he sends it to the marina, or the fedex guy might not be able to find the marina.... considering how small the town is and how big the marina is...... all very very lame excuses. in the end he agrees to send the title to the marina, with the package being addressed to the marina manager...and that he would have it at fedex in an hour or so. though it was painful, i did thank him, and 
asked him to email me the tracking number. this was on 4\8..... so far no tracking number.... 
so in summary even though i got an awesome deal on the boat. boat angel has been a real nightmare to deal with. very rude. no follow through or follow up. you have to stay on top of them. they've outright lied a few times. extra after the sale stipulations, not included in the ad. i would warn anyone that deals with them to proceed with caution. best to view them like a seedy car salesman. 
this is still ongoing as i have not got all the paper work, so i'll ad to this thread when i get all the correct paperwork.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Good luck with your purchase. Keep us in the loop, thanks.
Can you tell if you are being mistreated due to just incompetence or do they have a motive of some sort.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

In many states it's illegal to sell a boat or a car without a certificate of title. If the seller doesn't eventually produce one, or a signed, valid bill of sale, which some states will accept in lieu of a certificate of title, talk to your local police and/or prosecuting attorney. If you have paid him for the boat, there's no excuse for him to be dragging his feet.


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## kenr74 (Oct 13, 2012)

I bought a boat from Boat Angel through E-bay a while back. Everything went great. Pictures were all accurate. I went in with worst case expectations based on pictures, and things were much more to the best case end of the spectrum. Paperwork was no trouble. I had to meet the family at the boat to get the registration signed over. I was worried they might be a no-show, but they came, and it was actually a pleasure to meet them. I'm sure experiences vary wildly, and some go bad, but that is mine for the record. If anyone is looking at a Boat Angel boat, I would just encourage them to have low expectations. They make it very clear they do not know anything about the boats, they just play the tax game with the donations. You can't expect them to be anything like a boat dealer, or to offer any help with storage, moving, berthing, etc...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

cs-
FedEx (and UPS) has a very simple service called "Hold at depot for pickup". You can have anything shipped to your name, but held for pickup at any local depot (including most of the storefronts) for actual pickup. They sometimes need a day to correct a delivery that is already in transit (you can request the hold while an item is in transit to your other address) or the shipper can have it sent to the depot when the item is originally shipped. Check with FedEx for your local and account options.

Some companies simply have bugs up their butts about "the way we always do things" and can't figure out how to accommodate customers. Whenever possible, I try to help them out by giving my business to someone else.(G) Of course, there aren't many competitors in the "donated boats" business.

If you haven't been able to get a tracking number...odds are they either didn't get or haven't processed (shipped) the title. Doesn't sound like you're asking anything unreasonable.


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## cs2340 (Apr 9, 2016)

davidpm said:


> Good luck with your purchase. Keep us in the loop, thanks.
> Can you tell if you are being mistreated due to just incompetence or do they have a motive of some sort.


mainly i feel it's just incompetence.... if you point out and press those issues they go on the on the defense really fast. i was finally able to get the tracking number for the paper work that was mailed out 4\8. funny though that they chose the slowest delivery fedex offered. i spoke with the guy that donated they boat again as well. he didn't go into details but apparently he's very upset with boat angel as well. on the plus side if i can't get valid paper work from boat angel.... he still has the original title for the state in which the boat is located, and has no problem giving it to me.


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

cs2340 said:


> mainly i feel it's just incompetence....


 That's the likelihood.



> if i can't get valid paper work from boat angel.... he still has the original title for the state in which the boat is located, and has no problem giving it to me.


There's the problem. The donor still has the title to the boat, and Boat Angel has sold a boat to you that they don't even own yet.

In most states, the only way to transfer ownership of any boat over about 16' (other than by order of a court) is for the seller/transferor to sign the certificate of title over to the buyer/transferee. If the donor wants a charitable tax deduction, he needs to transfer the certificate of title to Boat Angel. That's the donor's proof that he made a charitable donation. That makes Boat Angel the owner of the boat. Then, when you buy the boat, Boat Angel needs to sign over the title to you.

If the donor doesn't transfer title to Boat Angel, then he doesn't get a tax deduction, and Boat Angel won't own the boat, and consequently Boat Angel won't be able to transfer ownership to you. If you don't get the certificate of title signed over into your name, you don't own the boat, and if you don't own the boat, you won't be able to register it and operate it on the water.

I suspect the person you have been talking with is a volunteer who doesn't understand the process.

I don't know what "paperwork" the Boat Angel rep is sending you, but the paperwork that you need is a signed, valid certificate of title (assuming the boat is over 16').


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

What sailormon said.

There's NO WAY that the donor could have a "title" if BoatAngel also had the "title", unless someone filed for a replacement of a lost title, and then found the original again. In which case, someone might have to explain which title was real and valid, and which one they had neglected to destroy, and "title" might be suspended and delayed until that was cleared up with notarized affidavits and other complications.

I'll bet the FedEx that's "coming" is like a box of Crackerjacks: There's always a surprise inside.(G)


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## cs2340 (Apr 9, 2016)

Sailormon6 said:


> That's the likelihood.
> 
> There's the problem. The donor still has the title to the boat, and Boat Angel has sold a boat to you that they don't even own yet.
> 
> ...


 the main person at boat angel i have been dealing with is brian stewart, which is the main guy.....
the boat has.. or previously had... a texas title. for whatever reason boat angel transferred the boat to colorado registration. i have a feeling there is something definitely fishy with that in itself. looking at the colorado website it seems to be crazy simple to register a boat there. boat angel claimed to have told the donor to destroy the texas title as it was not needed. the donor told me.... boat angel never told him to do that.... 
and yeah... curious to see what they're going to send as for paper work....


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

It could be that BoatAngel is very lazily (or, stupidly and criminally) taking a shortcut to obtaining what passes as a good title, for boats where they don't have the original for whatever reason. Like the donor saying "Oh, gee, that's around here someplace...".

And someone at BA is exploiting loose state laws, or getting illegal favors done by a fellow evangelist on a DMV staff elsewhere.

At this point you have little choice but to see how it plays out. To see if you get a legal title from someplace in a reasonable time. And then, afterwards, perhaps see if you can qualify for a whistleblower award, reporting BA to the IRS and the state authorities for possibly laundering titles in an improper way. Not saying they are--just that this is irregular enough so that someone ought to be investigating to make sure that what's going on IS or isn't legal and proper.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Either way, you may want to get your hands on the prior owners original title. You don't want someone laying claim to your property down the road. You could even hire a title service to try to clear this up.


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

Bought a boat from Boat Angel and everything went well. Had noticed the boat when mine was in the marina, recognized it from the ad. Statement on condition of the boat accurate and turned out way better than I expected with brand new laminate 150% genoa which was worth 3 times what I'd bid on the boat. Unfortunately didn't tell wife what I'd done and ended up selling it for a break even to get a quick sale and avoid a divorce. Be careful what you bid on Boat Angel auctions, you might end up owning the boat. I made a bid that was stupid low and ended up with the boat.


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

roverhi said:


> Bought a boat from Boat Angel and everything went well. Had noticed the boat when mine was in the marina, recognized it from the ad. Statement on condition of the boat accurate and turned out way better than I expected with brand new laminate 150% genoa which was worth 3 times what I'd bid on the boat. Unfortunately didn't tell wife what I'd done and ended up selling it for a break even to get a quick sale and avoid a divorce. Be careful what you bid on Boat Angel auctions, you might end up owning the boat. I made a bid that was stupid low and ended up with the boat.


Let this be a lesson to you....don't drink late at night and bid on boats...:captain:
You may just end up with one...at least that's how I got mine....


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## cs2340 (Apr 9, 2016)

Squidd said:


> Let this be a lesson to you....don't drink late at night and bid on boats...:captain:
> You may just end up with one...at least that's how I got mine....


Ouch, lol Yeah drunk bidding is about as bad as drunk dialing !


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

cs2340 said:


> mainly i feel it's just incompetence....


One would hope so but BA has been around for many years and you would think they would have learned their job by now.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Here's my suspicion, having read so many conflicting accounts. Boat Angel likely means well. They take genuine donated boats and sell to raise money for charity. The buyer who pays a fraction of wholesale and then gripes about an undisclosed flaw, is only coming up on the losing end of the gamble they made. As far as title goes, I would not be surprised, if many of these boats have polluted titles. I may rarely become a problem for anyone, as the boat was genuinely donated, so no one makes a prior ownership claim. It was likely donated, because it cost the prior owner money to keep, so they're not going to volunteer to take it back. That said, it isn't right and I would never send money to anyone other than an escrow company, without a proper title in hand.


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## cdy (Nov 10, 2013)

I won an auction through BA a number of years ago - could not get a straight answer on a title question before sending the money - so backed out - they tried to threaten their way for me to buy it , but since they would not answer a question - I would not send the money.

I recently won a EBAY auction for a cape dory 25 in Cocoa, about 50 miles from my house, was able to meet the seller and inspect the boat before handing over the cash ( and see the title) turned out to be a very good buy. Interestingly he had bought the boat in Charleston through BA auction on EBAY - he added a lot of equipment and new outboard, the boat is older but in solid shape, I think he got a deal to start with but I got the better deal when he had to head back to California earlier than expected.


There are so many 25 -27 ft boats out there for sale - they are a bit small to live aboard but too big to trailer - with slip prices along the coast being so high - people are willing to almost give away to get out from under storage fees.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Minne-
" I may rarely become a problem for anyone, as the boat was genuinely donated, so no one makes a prior ownership claim. "
I think the problem is more with what the new buyer will or won't have to go through. An organization that knows their business WILL make sure to get title with every donation of titled property (boats, cars, etc.) simply because in many if not most states, the new buyer is going to have major problems and delays if they don't receive that title. Can't register it. Can't apply for new or lost title, in many cases, unless you've got a signed and notarized bill of sale from a previous owner, or jumped through other hoops. 
And for all you know, one spouse "donated" it after a divorce, while the other actually still holds the title and wants the boat back. Hey, it's a strange world out there, and any legitimate charity ought to be able to follow conventional rules for washing titled property.
Kinda like the American Red Cross criminal prosecutions against volunteers a decade ago, and the Wounded Warrior CEO(?) being fired this year? Then there's some "USCG Foundation", conveniently out of New London IIRC, that keeps asking me to donate to support the USCG. Except, their overhead is 10x as much as most reputable charities.
Might be worth looking up BA on some of the charitywatch web sites.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> .....An organization that knows their business WILL make sure to get title with every donation of titled property (boats, cars, etc.) simply because in many if not most states, the new buyer is going to have major problems and delays if they don't receive that title. Can't register it......


If what was said above was correct, it seems BA tries to cleanse titles, by registering/titling them in another State that doesn't have a diligent process for determining prior ownership.  This may allow the buyer to get title/registration in their home state, but is indeed where title claims can become a nightmare. The courts will take your property away, if another party is able to show they still hold valid title from a prior date, without any regard to the fact that you paid in good faith. I suspect it's unlikely to happen in these circumstances, but agree with your point that it could.

I also previous said this......



> .....it isn't right and I would never send money to anyone other than an escrow company, without a proper title in hand.


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

I wonder if it is not more the local Boat Angel organizations that are the issue? Seems they have a central home office and a bunch of branches that perhaps are of differing proficiencies of following through. I almost bought a boat from them years ago. I had issues trying to bid from an old flip phone (must have been 8 or 9 years ago) as the offer ended. Then the buyer backed out and they contacted me, willing to let me buy it for what it sold for.(Newport 30MKII for $2,300) I got the feeling that they were bidding up the boat so I declined. Next time it went up it sold for much more. That said I have heard of lots of folks actually completing there transactions without issue. 

I have bought several cars (an donated a few) from a similar local charity site that sells donated cars. I don't think the charities get much money from him but he does give good deals, of course when you get your product for free you can.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Anecdote........ Many years ago, I tried to donate a used Jeep Wrangler to a charity, because it was sitting unused, out of town, and it was impractical for me to be there to sell it and didn't need a new car to trade it in for. 

I called my fav charity and offered it to them. They asked if it ran. I said I hadn't used it in 2 years and last I checked it didn't start. Last I actually drove it was no issue. They could not get their act together and, after numerous calls and issues, eventually declined the donation. It was worth approx $10,000 at the time.

Another 6 months pass and I actually find a need for it. I have a local tow company come pick it up, it needed nothing more than a new battery.

Sometimes charities are not run by the most enterprising people. Of course, as noted in the comment above on expenses, they aren't really able to afford to hire the best of the best either. 

A Ted talk once detailed how an Ivy League MBA graduate could make about $500k per year in the private sector or be hired for under $100k at a national charity. If they took the private sector job and donated $250k to the charity, they would be hailed a hero and still take home substantially more. If they actually did the charitable job, they would endure endless criticism for spending too much money. Not sure it's real numbers, but the point was very good.


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

hellosailor said:


> Minne-
> " I may rarely become a problem for anyone, as the boat was genuinely donated, so no one makes a prior ownership claim. "
> 
> _" unless you've got a signed and notarized bill of sale from a previous owner,_"


That's exactly what you get (I got) from Boat Angel...That's what comes in the Fed Ex package...

That's how they do it. With the number of boats from all sorts of states, and the quick auction turnaround, they don't have "time" to wait for every "donator" to get the paperwork to them...in order to change every registry to Colorado/BA...so they can turn it over to the new buyer...ain't gonna happen...

A "notarized" bill of sale...and a "copy" of the original title or documentation papers is all you need to get the boat registered in most states (with you getting new title) or get the boat Federaly documented or removed from documentation...accepted by most states and the federal government...I know, I did it and didn't have to jump thru any (out of the ordinary) "Hoops" with my BA boat.


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## cs2340 (Apr 9, 2016)

did finally get the title and got the boat switched over. only snag is that boat angel didn't send a bill of sale or anything for the motor... so i guess i'll be calling them monday and see if i can get that figured out...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

cs-
Find out what your DMV (or whoever registers boats) needs. You may not need any papers for the engine. It is the BOAT you need to register and title. The engine usually just rides along for free.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

In RI, the outboard needs to be separately registered. However, while you have to renew the boat registration, the outboard is a one time twenty dollar bill.


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## cs2340 (Apr 9, 2016)

hellosailor said:


> cs-
> Find out what your DMV (or whoever registers boats) needs. You may not need any papers for the engine. It is the BOAT you need to register and title. The engine usually just rides along for free.


the lady at the texas parks and wildlife said that i would need a bill of sale on the motor as will as bring a picture in showing the engine serial number. 
at least the boat part is done...


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## Bamper (May 13, 2016)

I've been tempted to buy from them, but since I am new to sailing, I need to see and touch before I buy.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Frank55 (Oct 25, 2016)

Boat Angel is a SCAM company. They are being investigated by the BBB and the IRS. They have executives that take a large salary (non profit organization) and donate money to businesses that they are part owners. This is a conflict of interest and illegal. They hide under the religious name which should be insulting to all. DO NOT FALL FOR THEY'RE EVIL WAYS. Google they're company.


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## Frank55 (Oct 25, 2016)

Boat Angel is a SCAM company. They are being investigated by the BBB and the IRS. They have executives that take a large salary (non profit organization) and donate money to businesses that they are part owners. This is a conflict of interest and illegal. They hide under the religious name which should be insulting to all. DO NOT FALL FOR THEY'RE EVIL WAYS. Google they're company.


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## Frank55 (Oct 25, 2016)

I concur


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## cs2340 (Apr 9, 2016)

oh yeah, no doubt. after my dealings with them and the discussion i had with the previous owner... they are a scam. though i will have to say aside from the headache of having to deal with them i did end up with a very good deal on the boat. the boat is worth much more than i paid. the outboard alone is worth more than what i paid.


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## dixiedawg (Sep 22, 2013)

Frank55, did you just concur with *yourself* in posts 81/82?? LOL You may have been alone at sea too long, my friend!

I've never bought a Boat Angel boat, but I did donate one. The process went smoothly, and they communicated well with me throughout the process. They posted all of the two dozen or so pictures I sent in, and accurately relayed all the information I gave them. I was amazed how high the bidding went, and felt that the winning bidder went too high, but that certainly wasn't Boat Angel's fault.


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