# Wax or polish



## Jotun (May 4, 2006)

Can anyone recommend a good polish or wax for topsides. I bought something from 3M this week that claimed to be a polish for light oxidation and a wax all in one step. I brought the bottle home and then read on the back of the bottle about all the cancer causing agents inside and the need to wear a respirator and so on and so forth. I'm looking for something to simply shine up the topsides. The stuff I bought is a little more than I am looking for.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

I hope you aren't planning on using wax on your non-skid areas. You might try just compounding first (no wax). Once the oxidation is off, you might find the appearance to your liking.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I have used the 3m stuff before. I have never (cough) had a problem with (cough, cough) cancer.

It works ok. Expensive though. PB is right, go get a orbital waxer and compound where neccesary. I prefer the teflon wax. Works really well, but you realy should put at least 2 coats on, a week or two seperate. 

As Pb also said, DO NOT WAX YOUR NON-SKID. I imagine I did not need to type that... but just in case!

Take care.

- CD


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## Jotun (May 4, 2006)

No decks. I just want to do the "normal" maintenance to the topsides this spring. They could use a little shine. I'll take any and all recommendations. PBzeer, what is this compound stuff?


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## Sailormon6 (May 9, 2002)

The gelcoat on my 35' C&C is in pretty good condition, and, for the past two years, I've washed the hull and applied 3M Protective Wax, and it's easy to apply and to rub off, and lasts reasonably well for the season. It takes me about a day. If you only have light chalking, I'd suggest you try less aggressive methods first, and see how it goes.


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## PBzeer (Nov 11, 2002)

Meiguars has a product called One Step Compound, but I've only used on a couple of small areas so far. It has no wax, but does give some luster to the gelcoat.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Macguiars is top notch. I would vote it too.


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## Gary M (May 9, 2006)

Unless your gel coat is really oxidizes Mequires paste wax and lots of elbow grease will bring it up. It will take at least two applications. 

Do a small section at a time for the first coat and get it off before it dries completely or it will be a bear to get off. Gel coat seems to dry out and the first coat really sticks to it. Once you get it nice two applications a year and it will stay very nice.


PS can we get a spell checker on this board ??


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

I tried the West Marine One step compund/wax last summer. I had read a positive review (I think from Practical Sailor), and I would much rather spend my time sailing than waxing. It gave my hull a really nice shine that stayed new looking for about two months, and still made water bead up everywhere but the waterline and under the scuppers after four months. I think this year I will use it again, and if I have time (hah!), I will add a second coat of regular wax. I must admit that I have been tempted to try the Poli-glow type products, but so far I have been too lazy to research it.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Tips on buff/polish & wax*

Buff Polish & Wax

Try these products (for Gel-Coat only not intended for Awlgrip)

The Cliff Note Version:
Steps:
*#1*-Clean the hull with an acid base cleaner like FSR, oxalic acid or On & Off to remove rust & tannin staining.
*#2*-Wet Sand by hand 600 (if real bad) then move up the grits to P1000+ (only if severely oxidized other wise you can start at #3)
*#3*-3M Marine Rubbing Compound or Presta Gel Coat Compound (use a wool 3M super buff COMPOUND grade pad or Presta black wool pad)
*#4*-3M Finesse It or Presta Ultra Cutting Creme (Use a foam 3M #05725 pad)
*#5*-(OPTIONAL STEP) Presta Chroma - Use 3M #05725 pad)
*#6*-Collinite #885 Fleet Wax Paste Version- or 3M Performance Paste Wax. For a polymer coating I like AwlCare or Nu-Finish

* The Full Detailed Version:*

*Tools & Supplies:*
To be successful in completing this project you'll need a few items first. Don't be bashful in pulling out the wallet for these supplies, and while you do, think about how much money you're saving over a new AwlGrip Paint Job. The tools for this project can be used, and will last, for years and years and with each use they cost you less.

*#1) Buffer*- A good Buffer is an absolute necessity. Unfortunately, one of the cheapies from Wal*Mart or Auto Zone doesn't count as quality and will yield rather poor results. If you're buffing the soft paint of a Yugo these buffers might work but not on a 30+ foot sail boat. The "cheapies" ultimately can't handle the loads & run either too fast or too slow for the material & pad combination you are using. They also cant usually accept quality polishing and buffing grade pads.

A machine with a thumb controlled speed dial will be the best money you spend on an orbital buffer. I use a Makita model 9227C and it's proven itself to be a reliable and top quality machine. Most of boat yards around here also use the 9227C for buffing and also with 7 & 9" sanding discs. The 9227C comes equipped with a thumb dial for easy access and instantaneous speed control and turns speeds from 600 rpm to 3000 rpm. The difference between my Makita and my brothers old Sears Craftsman is like night and day.

There are many manufacturers of speed-controlled circular buffers but Makita, Milwaukee, Flex (German company) & DeWalt build about the best and most reliable units. When buying a buffer it's important to buy a unit with a "no load" motor. "No load" means that no matter how much pressure you put on the buffer it will still spin at the speed you set it at. While some boaters have found a cheapy Makita knock off buffer that will work they rarely last or can handle the loads. For a one time job or a small boat a Chinese Makita knock off might be fine. If you want one of these Harbor Freight has one for about $40.00..

*Buffer features that matter:* 1) No load speed. 2) Weight (lighter is better when working overhead). 3)Thumb control speed dial. 4) Low speeds 600 rpm is a very useful speed but many circular buffers have a slow speed of 1000 rpm. 5) Soft start this helps prevent sling upon start up. A power cord and handle design that makes cord replacement easy.

*#2)Buffing Pads-* You will need two or three grades of buffing pads or discs. I only recommend 3M pads because they are easy to find and most Napa Auto Parts stores stock them. The 3M heavy wool Hookit Superbuff pads are great for the compounding phase the part number is - 05711. For polishing the yellow wool Hookit polishing grade pad #05713 is another favorite. You can also use the 3M foam polishing grade pads like the #05725. They are wonderful for adding the finishing touch.

Use a heavy wool compounding grade pad for the compounding, and a polishing grade wool #05713 or the #05725 for the polishing stage and the same #05725 foam pad for the finishing or glazing stage.

I'll use 3M professional grade foam pads #05725 for the polish & glaze stage but I also use some Lake Country CCS pads. When buffing a gelcoat hull it's important to match the aggressiveness of the pad to the phase of the buffing though you can experiment too and have great results. You will just not get a good final shine using a heavy compounding grade pad even if you're using Finesse It or Chroma 1500 with it as the wool itself is too course.

*#3) Microfiber Rags-* Honestly these are the best invention for buffing & waxing since the buffing machine. I've been using microfibers for years and years on antique cars and trust me they have come way, way down in price since their introduction.

A pack of three microfiber rags used to cost me in the vicinity of $40.00 but now you can buy a pack of three at an auto parts store or, gulp, even Wal*Mart, for about $3.00-$4.00. Occasionally Sam's Club will have them in 18 or 24 packs for about $12.00. When buying microfiber rags be very wary & conscious of the quality. A good rag will look more like a good quality terry cloth towel, with thick full loops. In short, it will be nice and robust and the quality will be visible to the naked eye. Even the worst quality microfiber rags will still outperform the best quality terry cloth so don't worry too much. Again, these rags are amazing and they will save you time! Trying to compare terry cloth or cotton rags to microfiber rags, for this job, is like pairing Michael Moore & Bode Miller in a ski race. There is NO comparison..

*#4) Wet Sand Paper-* Usually any good quality wet-sand paper like 3M is fine and grits of 600-1000+ are what will be necessary. If your hull does not need a wet sanding don't bother buying it. You can actually wet sand the entire project then after 2000+ simply do a polish phase but this can be a LOT of work.

* #5) Compounds-* All compounds & polishes are not created equally. Avoid buying any compound that uses terms like "essential oils" or has the word "silicone" in the label. Compounds with these additives are intended for novices. Unfortunately, these products, like 95% of the "one step" products will give a false & premature shine. This premature shine is caused by the "essential oils" or "silicone" & will cause you to stop polishing before you've actually polished anything due to this false shine. They add these lubricants to the product to make the wheel spin easier and to make you think you are getting a great shine. Sadly the shine is fake, premature and caused by "essential oils or silicones":doh:

Perhaps the best, of the easily available compounds, is 3M Marine Rubbing Compound. I've used it with very good success over the years and it works. Is it the best compound? No not at all. Do I regularly use it when compounding? No, but I still do on occasion. 3M Marine Super Duty Rubbing Compound is a good product and it would be considered "paint shop safe" meaning it contains no "cheater oils" like silicone.

If you want very, very good products look up Presta Products on-line. Presta Gelcoat Compound is a GREAT compound that leaves a surprisingly high level of shine before you begin to polish. Presta is generally sold only through body shop distributors and are water based (zero oils), but also worth every penny. For the average guy who just wants his boat shiny 3M is decent. If you're part of the anal-retentive crowd, who will settle for nothing but the best, do yourself a favor and look into Presta Products it's basically all I use these days and it performs well above the 3M stuff.

*#6) Polish-* After the compounding phase you'll need to polish. 3M Finesse It II is a good choice for a polish. I've used many bottles of Finesse It II and it's readily available and "paint shop safe". Unfortunately, Finesse It II does have some chemical binders or carriers in it that give a minimal pre-mature shine. A quick wipe down with a spray bottle of denatured alcohol and a rag gets rid of this so you can see the real shine you've created.

Again, for the next level Presta Ultra Cuttting Creme with the yellow wool #05713 pad is a great step to follow the Gelcoat Compound with. It is my #1 choice for both light compounding and polishing. This unique product, like all the Presta compounds and polishes, uses a very high quality diminishing grit media that starts out more aggressive than Finesse It II but finishes finer than it thus avoiding another full step.

*The Process:*

Buffing and waxing a boat the right way takes time and is a commitment. On a gelcoat hull of 36 feet I would plan on about 5 hours for doing a two step polish, & wax or about 6-8 hours for a two-step glaze & wax. This is once you get caught up, after your first re-condition, including a wet sanding or compounding, it's usually only a two step process each spring. Unfortunately, the first season of re-conditioning may take you up to 20 hours if your hull is heavily oxidized. It's a commitment but gives a beautiful finish.

*  One Step Products:*

Contrary to popular belief there is no such thing as a one step solution for wet sanding, compounding, polishing and waxing a fiberglass hull. The saying "you get what you pay for" is true and a $10.00 - $18.00 bottle of "one step" cleaner wax just does not cut it if you truly want your boat gelcoat fully reconditioned. Unless you're pinched by time, and are satisfied with a quickie job, and many boat owners will be, you may want to stop reading here. Using a one step cleaner wax is like going to the "touch-less" car wash and ordering the "wax" option for a Porsche. It's just not the same as doing it the hard & old-fashioned way.

*  Cleaning the hull:*

Before wet sanding or compounding can begin you should thoroughly clean the hull. For this process you'll need a cheap rain suit, duck tape, rubber gloves and some ON & OFF, On & OFF Gel or FSR gel (basically acid). Duck tape where the gloves meet the raincoat so you don't get acid on your skin while reaching over-head to wash the boat. I find using On & Off, and a car wash brush, as effective, but far quicker, than applying FSR gel and they are both made of the same basic components (acids).

Buy a roll or sheet of plastic and rip it with a razor knife into 12-inch wide lengths. Tape this to your dry hull surface at the water line using 3M green film tape (seems to work) at the top but let it hang on the bottom as a "drip edge" skirt. You do this so the acid in the ON & OFF does not eat the copper bottom paint and can drip on the ground vs. the bottom paint. Wash and rinse quickly a small area at a time and do this preferably before you before you bottom paint just in case. On & Off is basically FSR without the gel. However, you can wash much faster with ON & OFF than you can with FSR. The ON & OFF will bring back the white of the hull by removing the metals or tannins. Tannins are that rusty orange discoloration you get from the ocean over time that attach to the gelcoat. You'll be amazed at the difference in the color of your hull! Even hulls that don't look bad look amazing after a thorough washing with On & Off. This is a very good place to start before waxing if your boat is older than a few years. Be very careful not to get On & Off or FSR on aluminum rub rails, metals, stanchions, cleats etc. because it will pit them. Only apply FSR or On & Off to a gelcoat hull! Allow about 20 minutes for the skirt set up and 1/2 hour for washing the hull.

 *Removing the oxidation:*

To do it right you must first remove all the oxidation. This will be achieved either by wet sanding, starting with 600 grit, if really bad, and working up to 1000 grit plus. Wet sanding by novices should always be done by hand. Unless you're a seasoned body shop professional do not use a machine to speed up the wet sanding process. While gel coat is very thick & most hulls can be wet sanded & compounded numerous times, compared to Linear Polyurethanes such as AwlGrip or Imron, a novice with an electric or air sander can chew through and ruin the gelcoat quickly if not fully experienced. Doing this by hand, and keeping the paper rinsed and wet, is the key to getting a good result. One trick is to add a little dish detergent to the water bucket as this lubes the paper and helps rinse the gelcoat chalk off when you dip the paper. I like to use a soft damp kitchen sponge as my backing block and it matches the hull contours nicely.

*Compounding:*

If the hull oxidation is minimal a good heavy duty rubbing compound, such as 3M Heavy Duty or Presta Gelcoat Compound and a 3M compounding grade wool pad #05711 or Presta black pad can and should be the starting point. You'll know quickly after testing a spot with the compound if you'll need to wet sand. If you need to spend more than 2-3 minutes on a 2X2 area your using the wrong machine, compound, pad or a combination of the three or you need to start at wet sanding. I can not stress enough the importance of using a compounding grade pad with a compound and a polishing grade pad with a polish. While it is fine to use a polish grade pad with a medium compound like Presta Ultra Cutting Creme you don't want to use a heavy duty pad with a polish or you won't get the desired result.

When compounding do keep in mind that a compound is like liquid wet sand paper. Therefore, you should keep your pad damp at all times. I use a misting bottle filled with water for this but don't over do it. If you are getting lots of small dot "sling" the pad is to wet. If you are a novice I do not advise attempting to use the buffer to "dry buff" or to "buff off" compounds or polishes. Running the pad dry, as in buffing until the compound is off the hull, is something best left for PROFESSIONALS or until you have the confidence and skill to go there. You can very easily damage your hull if you are not experienced at "dry" buffing. I've seen burned and permanently discolored gel coat from novices attempting this. This is part of the reason they put Silicone's in compounds and it's because most people don't understand the concept of how to use a buffer.

As a beginner your buffer should be considered just that a buffer and not a "remover". Work a 2 foot by 2 foot area first going at a slow speed 600 then slowly up to 1000 for 30-45 seconds then turn the dial up to 2k+ but below 3k and stop before it is dry. Next wipe the residue off while it's still in the "damp haze" mode. Don't let it dry or it will be a bear to remove unless you wet it again.. This will show you how much more you need to do or if you can move onto the next 2X2 area. ALWAYS, ALWAYS keep the pad and machine moving!!!

Apply compound in a criss-cross not a circle (note the mist bottle of water):








*Edging the pad is for pro's or after you get comfortable with the process & machine !!*








*Right Way - keep it FLAT..*









*After compounding phase only using Presta Ultra Cutting Creme (no sanding was done here 30 year old gelcoat)*:








*Pre-compounding Phase:*









 *The polishing phase:*

This is perhaps the most important because it gives that deep wet look to the hull even before you wax it. Skipping the very important polishing phase, and using an aggressive compound only, will leave very small, barely visible, scratches or "swirl marks" in the gel coat that will absorb more UV light. It may look very shiny after this step but the sun & UV see the swirls. These micro ridges and valleys or micro scratches, if you will, actually create more exposed surface area, and thus oxidize the hull more rapidly. This is why you should polish the hull as the second phase or third phase depending on your level of oxidation.

So phase 1 is wet sand (if needed), phase 2 compound, phase three polish.

Contrary to popular myths & beliefs you should not be dependent on the wax for the shine of your hull. The wax is a protection layer only and a final sealer to keep the elements at bay and to minimize pollution and dirt from binding to the hull. Unfortunately, most DIYer's actually skip the polishing step thinking compounding is polishing. It's not. Once the hull is polished I do a phase called glazing step (overkill for most unless you're totally OCD) and then two coats of Collinite Fleet Wax. Most often one coat will suffice but for a really long lasting finish two coats is best. I normally do three at the waterline because this is where the wax sees the most abuse.

The same techniques apply to polishing as do compounding.

*After polishing but before wax:*









*Glazing Phase (optional):*

The fourth step, or glazing phase, would be considered over kill by many but this is the step where you literally make the hull surface as smooth as glass removing any traces of "swirl marks". By using products like Meguiars #9 Swirl Remover or Presta Chroma you eliminate micro scratches and slow the oxidizing by creating even less surface area for the sun's UV rays to degrade.

Don't worry though, if you stop at 3M Finesse It II you're 90% of the way there and this level of polish is plenty good for most boaters and will last a long time if done right and with patience.

*Understanding Grit Levels:*

What is grit level? If you were to rate various products on a 1-10 scale of grit (1 being least aggressive & 10 being most) wet sanding at 600 would be a 10 or most aggressive, compounding with a heavy duty compound would be a 6-7, Finesse It a 3-4.5, #9 or Presta Chroma a 1-3 and wax a Zero.

Using the above scale as a guide you can see why you would not want to jump the compounding phase to a wax. Stopping at the compounding phase will leave swirl marks or micro scratches, which creates more surface area, to absorb UV rays. Stopping at the Finesse It phase will leave considerably less aggressive swirl marks but they will still be there all be it very, very minimally. Going all the way to a glazing phase will leave virtually zero swirls and prolong the time between oxidation's re-appearance. Even deep scratches can be minimized by feathering the edges. The sharp edges of a scratch are what make it highly visible. Rounding off these edges through compounding and polishing greatly minimizes the visibility while still preserving surrounding gelcoat thickness...

*One Step Products / Liquids:*
Don't be fooled by the "easy application liquid carnuba waxes" I've yet to find one that lasts and I've tried many of them! Trust me I did this for a living when I was younger and no one wants to wax a mega yacht every three months! I used to work on and detail "shiny boats" (mega yachts) and found Collinite Fleet Wax #885 paste version to be the longest lasting and hardest of the Carnuba's. Practial Sailor, not once, but twice now has backed up my own personal finding crowning Collinite #885 the king of paste waxes. There are others but Collinte is truly a great product.

One way to test if your wax will pass the test of time is to watch your waterline. If it becomes yellow the wax is dead and gone! With Collinite #885 you can get 6-8 full months without any yellowing at the waterline. No other wax I've tried has even come close.

There are literally hundreds of waxes out there and any one of them is better than none. I only recommend the above waxes because I have used them and found them to be very durable. I have also used many of the "marine" waxes including some of the "teflon" based products, but again, none worked as well as the old-school paste Carnuba's.

* More Process Tips:*
When buffing & waxing a boat, out of the water, a good trick is to cover the bottom paint with at least 2" blue tape so you don't accidentally buff and wax the bottom paint. It's important to tape neatly so you get wax as close to the bottom paint as you can without actually getting it on the bottom paint. I usually do a 3/4-inch width tape followed by a 2-inch width giving me plenty of tape to save my buffing pads. Fouling of your buffing pad, with bottom paint, is the end of that pad until you can wash it in a commercial washing machine. To keep "sling", what happens when you use a rotary buffer, and it throws white dots of compound up onto your deck, off the decks, I bring old card board boxes to the boat yard. Lay them on the deck directly above the area you're working protruding about 12" over the edge of the deck. The cardboard overhang will catch any "sling" on the way up and it will save you huge amounts of time cleaning white dots off the surface of your deck!

Blue Tape:









*Tips for keeping it clean:*

*1)* With two coats of a paste Carnuba on the hull I only wash the boat with IMAR boat wash or Awlwash the soap made to wash Awlgrip. These products are great and also safe, and IMAR is also approved & safe for washing Strataglass dodger windows. The reason I use IMAR Boat Wash is because it's the only product I've found that cleans well but does not prematurely break down the wax. With IMAR I'm still beading after 7-8 months. Avoid the use of any soap with a built in wax, or one that's a heavy detergent based product and by all means do not use Joy, Palmolive or dish washing detergents as they eat waxes for lunch. You can order IMAR products from Defender or directly from the IMAR web site although Defender is cheaper. Using this and a very soft car wash brush on a stick works well and does not ruin your wax job.

*Tips for applying the wax:*

*3)* Do I apply the wax by hand? Yes! Please don't apply or remove the wax phase with the buffer. I use the 4-inch round Meguiars foam applicators you can buy at an auto parts store and a spray/mist bottle of water, like you use for ironing. The spray bottle is the secret trick for applying a true Carnuba wax. Simply mist the hull and liberally apply the wax. Wait for it to haze over to about 80-90% of dry and buff by hand with a Micro Fiber rag. Avoid terry cloth as microfibers work many times better. Once you use a Micro Fiber detailing cloth for waxing you'll wonder how you ever survived without one. The spray of water helps it attach and buff out to a harder, shinier easier to wipe off finish. It's sort of like when you get your shoes polished and the guy hits them with a mist bottle and then buffs the shine up. This trick does not work with most of the polymer/Carnuba blends like the 3M paste but it's like gold with the Collinite Carnuba..

Another trick is not to wax a large area! I'll do a two to three foot wide swath from toe rail to waterline marking where your are waxing at the toe rail with a piece of blue tape. Also leave a little residue on the leading edge so you'll know exactly where to start. You'll wipe this leading edge when finished with the next swath leaving another leading edge to go off of. It moves along much faster than it sounds.

Over the years I have experimented at length with using my buffer to remove the wax but I find the frictional heat is bad for it and it does not shine as well or last as long as a good hand application and hand wipe. Buffing it off by hand gives it a harder shell because it's cooler and does not re-melt the curing wax with the friction of a buffer. On my 36 footer I use only four Micro's where it used to take about a dozen terry cloth rags. I buy my Micro Fiber rags at Sam's Club or Wal*Mart. I used to buy them from Griot's Garage when they were the only ones who had them and they were HUGE money! Try and find the best quality Micro*Fiber you can it will make a difference. Sometimes the quality of the Sam's Club Micro's is poor so I go to Wal*Mart or an auto-parts store.

On concourse quality show cars pure carnuba wax is applied with bare, clean fingers & a mist of water and then removed with microfiber rags. This is how I waxed cars growing up. Bare fingers on a 36 footer is far to time consuming but I have actually done it..

* Tips for decks:*

*4)* I personally compound and buff the smooth but generally not the non-skid. I don't wax the decks with anything but Woody Wax but I don't find that it actually protects all that much so it may be a wasted step.

One insider secret is that less distortion in the reflection shows a very good polish/glaze with virtually no swirl marks. If the items in a reflection, such as a ladder, seems distorted the polishing is not up to par. You can also hold a ruler at 90 degrees to the surface and see how far you can read it. The further you can read the numbers the smoother the surface.









*Info on pads, compounds and rags:*

As for maintaining the wool buffing pads I wash them alone on COLD with Woolite in a home front load washing machine. Sometimes it may take two cycles to get them clean. Please do not dry them in a dryer and don't wash them on hot. They are wool and a hot wash or dry will literally change the pad grade. A polish grade pad can become a compound pad fairly quickly so wash cold then air dry. I rarely have to clean a pad, during a buffing project, unless I'm doing a boat that is badly oxidized. Use slow speeds and light pressure to prevent compound burning. You can also use a mist bottle of water, very sparingly, to give a little moisture to the hull and lube the pad. This however will create more sling so you're best to go slow and keep the compound wetter. The secret is to keep the pad "damp" if it dries, it burns, and you'll need a "spur wheel" or spigot wash to field clean it. Spurs are available at an autobody supply shop or auto parts store but I really, really dislike them and find there is not much need for one at all.

A trick I use for a "field clean" of the pads is to remove the pad from the buffer and rinse it under a boatyard spigot scrubbing it with my fingers until it's clean or in a 5 gallon bucket filled about 1/3 with fresh clean water. I then re-install the pad on the buffer and spin it on the buffers highest speed inside a 5-gallon bucket to catch the sling. Spin it until no more water spins off on the inside of the bucket. Once done with that use a towel to get it as close to dry as possible. This is the method I use as I feel it's much more thorough than a spur and does not make your pad black from metallic residue. With water based compounds a "field clean" is very easy!!

*Field Clean - Wash*:









*Field Clean - Spin Dry:*









*Cautions On Cheap Products & Pad Care*

A word of caution about "cheap" compounds and polishes that may contain silicone or wax or oils. These silicones or oils will not easily wash out or come, clean of the pads and will eventually ruin them. Use water based 3M , Presta Products or similar but carefully read the labels to make sure it says, "does not contain silicone". If a product says "paintable" or "body shop safe" it most likely does not contain silicone.

As for the microfiber rags do not use any sort of fabric softener it will ruin the rags. You can wash them on warm or hot though...

* Compound / Polish products I use:*

*My favorites:*

*Presta Products - Gelcoat Compound* = Heavy compound but finishes with a deep shine
* Presta Products - Ultra Cutting Creme* = Starts medium/heavy but diminishes & finishes comparable to Finesse It II
*Presta Products - Chroma* = Glaze

If your boat is not to badly oxidized Ultra Cutting Creme with a 3M #05713 pad can get you there in just one step plus the wax..! This is my absolute favorite product for compounding / polishing.

*Others:*

3M Marine Super Rubbing Compound
3M Finesse It - Polish
Meguiars #9 Swirl Remover - Fine polish that makes a great gelcoat glaze

*Wax I use:*

Collinite #885 Fleet Wax - Paste Version (Contains less than 2% silicone most of it's competitors contain 30% or more silicone)

I cut my teeth on concourse quality cars like this. My father would have been pretty un-happy with me if I toasted a 25-30k paint job.. Boats are easy compared to cars like this


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

Wow! Thanks Halekai, I printed out your post, and I will probably feel guilty every spring when I look at it and realize what a half-ass job I do on my boat. However, I do aspire! Lots of great info; I have been asking various folks for awhile to explain the difference between "polishing" and compounding or waxing, and yours is the first that makes sense to me. I do hope that I will someday have the time to do it right, but now, I find I barely have time to use the One Step product. I shudder to think what would happen if I actually had a big boat.....


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

Halekai
Have you or do you have anything written similar to the above for Awlgripped hulls?


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## Jotun (May 4, 2006)

After reading all this, I have decided that waxing/polishing is best left to the pros. Halekai, can you come wax my boat? You are a polishing/waxing/buffing ninja!  Thanks for all the info, I've got a lot to consider.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Halekai...awesome post...thanks!

K1....awlgrip is easy. NEVER EVER use anything with wax in it. 3M finesse-it is the product of choice for buffing after the hull is washed and cleaned with AWLWASH. Alternatively you can use AWLCARE for the buffing stage but it is more expensive and is probably the same thing! You don't use power buffers on awlgrip either unfortunately!

All you need to know about waxing awlgrip OR gelcoat HERE


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

thank you Mr Miagi.
AWLCARE and AWLWASH are my friends


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## christyleigh (Dec 17, 2001)

*Good Advise...... Tooo.... Good !!!*

Yaa..... Halekai - Thanks a lot .... you just cost me $220 for tools  At least I'm all set with the wax as I have a few tins of Tre-Wax already.  The PS article made it seem to me a few years ago that for the very slight difference between the Fleet Wax and the Tre-Wax performance vs price and availibility the Tre-Wax looked good. The Tre-Wax tells me I can apply, let dry, and then buff the whole thing - Opinion on that ? ... or should I only let it barely dry - then buff as you instructed with the Fleet ? I had tried the 'spit shine' idea off and on but never with a sprayer - sounds good !
Thanks !


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

Halekai,

Great post!! Awesome!! I am still trying to absorb it all, but I get the feeling my Turtle Wax is not cuting it!!

Just kidding.

Great post.

_ CD


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I've never heard of non-skid sections on the topsides. AFAIK the topsides are the sides of the HULL above waterline, not the deck. If someone below says such-and-so "is topsides" yes, that means they are on deck--but they are not on the topsides unless they are rapelling down the side of the boat.

Non-skid sections can and should be waxed to prevent oxidation, just like the rest of the FRP boat. The difference is that you use a non-skid wax on the non-skid sections and the deck in general. Yes, there really are such things, the label will tell you if you've got one.

In theory polishes are more durable than waxes, but as to carcinogens and such...heck, even the common solvents that were used with organic waxes thirty years ago probably still require a solvent and carcinogen warning label. Personally I'd rather use a simple good wax than a miracle product, but 3M's professional lines of FRP treatments are also pretty good stuff. Just don't go huffing the bottle.<G>

Rubber gloves? Yeah, probably a good idea whenever we're using "stuff" these days.

Doing it Halekai's way, the old fashioned way with premium waxes and elbow grease amplifiers, still produces a final result as good as anything else that's ever been invented.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*AwlGrip*

Unless you're a pro and really know what you are doing you can and will ruin AwlGrip if you buff it after it has fully cured. Many will tell you it can be done but it should ONLY be attempted if absolutely necesary.

When AwlGrip cures the solids and clear hard shine components migrate to the surface creating a very hard outer skin layer. Pictue the pigment sitting in the bottom of a glass and the clear LPU (Linear Polyester Urethane) floating to the surface like oil and water seperate. The problem with this skin of VERY hard material is that it is also VERY, VERY thin from .2 to .5 mills. If you buff it and happen to go through the skin, which you can't tell if you've done when buffing it, you will forever be a slave to it and NEED to keep wax on it to maintain a shine. I have done work with AwlGrip pre cure and even then while the stuff is curing it is not easy to work with. I advise NOT buffing AwlGrip and instead using their proprietary products.

Imron on the other hand can be buffed out with more ease than AwlGrip but again you need the right equipment and polishing pads. If your not sure the bottom line is DO NOT take compounds, polishes or waxes to Awlgrip other than the AwlGrip products!


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Halekai-
Thank you! For just explaining a mystery to me. The Awl folks recommend only their special Awl-Polish (whatever) if something has to be used, and I kept wondering why their polish not anyone else's. I guess they've got a very low abrasive product, and they're silently afraid that anything else will tear the top color coat away. Very interesting!


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## Neises (Feb 24, 2007)

Great info, I just bought an old SJ21 that needs a serious scrubbing.

Long ago, I heard of people burning up car paint-jobs with those buffers & have been scared of them ever since. Should the same fear apply to gelcoat?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Neises-
There are differences between a polisher, compounder, buffer, and buying a good tool with the right pad and the right "goo" for the job all count. The other rule every pro can tell you is never, never, let the wheel stay in one place--it always should be moving.
If you ask in an auto body supply shop, they probably can point you to the right tools and pads.


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## Neises (Feb 24, 2007)

Thank you, I'm going to stay afraid & just do it Mr. Miyagi style for now.


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## Wayne25 (Jul 26, 2006)

halekai36:
Thanks for the great post. The last issue of DIY went in to some gelcoat maintenance detail. They also recomended sealing the wax after it was applied. They used Interlux Teflon Wax Sealer for the job. I have never heard of this before. They said it protects the wax and makes everything last longer. Ever use a sealer as a final step?
Wayne


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

Spend the $60 on the Poly-glo. Just walked out in the driveway and the porch light is shining nicely off the hull onto the fresh snow. It will have been on a year in April and spent all last season in the water. No equipment, no effort, great shine, and looks to be good durability. Once the oxidation is off the gel coat does not shine because of the minute pits in it from aging. the Poly-glo fills those in and presents a uniform shiny appearance. You must get the oxidation off or you'll just have shiny chalk. Takes less than an hour to apply six coats to a 30' boat with no physical exertion.
Sail, don't sweat.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd second the use of PoliGlow. It has worked quite well on the boats I've used it on.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Sailaway....another thing we agree on!! <g>


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"They also recomended sealing the wax after it was applied. "
Ah, you've got to love marketing and marketers. So, they want you to apply a synthetic sealant on top of the "natural" sealant...to seal the sealant? Let me guess, the wax coat is just there to distribute atmospheric stresses from passing jetskis, preventing the hull and the teflon sealant from delaminating.
(See? I can pitch horsepucky too!<G>)

I've got this real strong hunch that PoliGlow (however you spell it) is the same product that revolutionized the auto dealership "aftermarket" business in the US around 1980. You'd take a five dollar tube of the goo, heat it up in hot water, then wax (excuse me, polish) the car with it. And charge the customer about $300 instead of the $75 for a Simonize job, because it was so exotic.

IIRC the stuff was a decent synthetic polish, but even at $60 for the DIY market, LORD THAT'S EXPENSIVE POLISH. About 5x more than DuPont's own Gen-You-Whine Teflon products.

Until last year DuPont expressly said Teflon has to be baked on, it has no value as dust in a wax or finish. Then they introduced their own line of Teflon waxes, finishes, and polishes and even with a coupon for a free bottle or can--I didn't buy one, because there are so many different similar products, I just got sick trying to figure out which did what.

Collinite. Carnauba. Whatever! And a pox on all the "miracle product" hucksters and their houses!


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## foxglove (Dec 27, 2002)

*Poli Glow (or however you spell it)*

I've use the product for three years. It's easy, time saving and worth the money. I don't know how it's made but it works for me.


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

I was not a believer myself until this past summer when I saw a badly oxidized 1969 Columbia with a dark blue hull restored to almost showroom condition. The hull was first de-oxidized with 400 grit hand wet sanding...and looked really ugly after is was wiped clean with mineral spirits afterwards. Then 2 coats of the magical poliglow were applied and I was amazed at how good the hull looked. I see the boat daily and it looks almost as good 6 months later. I'm sold on the benefits and ease of the product but I'm sure it will need renewing which is much easier than waxing.


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## TradewindSailing (Aug 19, 2006)

Does anyone have some long term experience with PolyGlow? How about years later, does it flake of or does it wear evenly? I would like to try it but what happens if I don't like it? Can I go back to just wax?


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*This boat was done...*

With one of the miracle coatings but I can't honestly remember which one. Yes they can yellow and yes they can peel. Last season I did a polish with my rotary buffer and one coat of wax in less time than the guy two boats over to my boat spent cleaning and applying Poly Glow. Contrary to popular belief it is NOT as easy or quick to apply as they market it to be.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I can't speak to long term-I'll let you know how that works out. But once you have the oxidation removed, as Cam stated, it is just as easy to apply as advertised.
The stuff really works as advertised and Practical Sailor was impressed.
The last "miracle cure" I tried that actually did work was Rain-X and that was 20 years ago.(not on the boat)
I don't know that I can get the results with it that halekai gets with wax. but I do know that, in about a month or so, I'm going to go out and wash the boat and then spend under an hour with the Poli-glo and be done for the year. You pick 'em.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

BTW, my guess is that boat was done with NuGlass2, which has a rep for yellowing and being otherwise pretty nasty.


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## tonic (Jan 22, 2007)

The Collinite 885 is no joke when the prep is done right. I use it, I don't get the results halekai36 does but it lasts hands down. This is a twisted bunch I love it. PEACE and happy sailing.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Like I said*



sailingdog said:


> BTW, my guess is that boat was done with NuGlass2, which has a rep for yellowing and being otherwise pretty nasty.


Like I said that could be Nu-Glass, Vert Glass or what ever I don't recall what that guy used. I have used PoliGlow on a friends Mako and it did flake. Unfortunately for him he had been using one of those "wonder waxes" with lots of silicone and teflon. Even though we cleaned his hull three times with the PoliGlow cleaner, according to the manufactureres instructions, NOTHING will completely remove silicone from a pourous surface. His lasted about 3 months before any serious flaking but even when we spot cleaned and re-applied the same spots flaked again. He went back to good old elbow grease, a wet sand, and a three step polishing phase and his Mako looked like new and never peeled again. I did not notice any yellowing with the PoliGlow but keep in mind we could not even get a year out of this stuff so it most likely had not had enough UV exposure to even begin yellowing. If you have ever used a wax with silicones or Teflon I'd advise NOT using any of the miracle coatings..


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd agree that if you're using any of the silicone or teflon-based waxes or coatings...that Poliglow will have trouble with it.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

k1vsk said:


> Halekai
> Have you or do you have anything written similar to the above for Awlgripped hulls?


Sorry I'm late jumping on this thread. 









As Cam said, we have gotten good results from Awlwash and Awlcare. Awlgripped hulls are a lot easier to care for.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

The girl in the bunny suit looks pretty unhappy.... you don't pay your crew enough.


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## sailortjk1 (Dec 20, 2005)

I must admit, thats not the best picture of my teenage daughter.
But she is mine, so she works for no wages.


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## sailaway21 (Sep 4, 2006)

I hope chrondi not reading this. He has rather strong feelings on child labor<g>
Nice job. btw, when I can get her to quit running around my teenage daughter is a pretty fair hand with a brush too. Must be something about mid-western girls.


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## mstern (May 26, 2002)

A related question for the waxing/polishing mavens: how do you clean the buffer pads? Can I wash them in my home washing machine?


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Can I wash them in my home washing machine?"
I'm guessing that you can. If, and only if, you are unmarried or plan to buy another washing machine for the clothes.<G>


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Yes you can wash them..*

Yes you can wash them in a washing machine however a front loader is preffered and is kinder and gentler on your pads. Fill a 5 gal bucket with cold water and rinse them in there by hand first to get as much residue off as you can then toss them in the washer with Woolite and wash on cold. DO NOT dry these pads in a dryer you wil ruin them or at the least turn a polishing grade pad into a buffing grade pad, or a buffing pad into a very coarse wool pad. Remember these pads are made of wool and need to be washed in cold and air dried. At the boat yard I use a 5 gal bucket to rinse build up out and then "spin it" in the bucket with the pad below the bucket sides so you don't wear all the water that is spun out of the pad. Even after spinning it on the highest speed, for about a minute, it will still be to wet for compounding so I use towels to dry it as best I can.

I personally don't use wool much any more and have switched to a brand of pad called CCS or Collapsed Cell Structure pads. There is nothing wrong with wool I just find the CCS pads to be more predictable with the results I am looking for but then again I'm a picky bastard. As the wool pads become saturated with moisture, from the compound or polish, they change their cutting characteristics slightly and the CCS pads don't. CCS pads are a collapsed cell foam pad and come in many grades. I buy them from AutoGeek.com and below is a link to the CCS pads page from Autogeek. If these pads are safe enough to use on my wifes convertable then they are more than safe for gelcoat. These pads are hi tech stuff but wool is fine if properly cared for!
http://www.autogeek.net/lc-ccs-foam-pads.html

By the way this car has 144k miles on it and this is the original paint!


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## pmoyer (Oct 3, 2006)

*Oh hell, now I'm all confused.*

Delightful discussion, and insanely informative, but....

I just bought a '76 Columbia 26K. She's been in the sun for a while, and her deck is, well, not exactly chalky (it doesn't come off on your hand like chalked paint), but it feels like it's getting there. No shine at all.

The problem is, I have no idea what products may have been used on the boat before, or even if it's gelcoat, Awlgrip, or some other coating.

So since I don't know what products have been used before (if any  ), what should I choose as my course of action? I plan to do *above* the hull/deck joint immediately, and do waterline to the joint next spring (time budgeting).

I don't want to use the wrong product and be kicking myself in three months....


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

*wax sealer*



tonic said:


> The Collinite 885 is no joke when the prep is done right. I use it, I don't get the results halekai36 does but it lasts hands down. This is a twisted bunch I love it. PEACE and happy sailing.


The 885 mentioned works great for my boat, best I have used. Used the 3M products several times with okay results. After the wax I applied Interlux Wax Sealer and UV Protector for the first time, it gave a beautiful glossy finish on a 25 year hull. For the deck I have been using Woody Wax, safe for Non Skid with fantastic results...as reported in Practical Sailor.

Gave up on those stains DEEP in the gel coat


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

Pmoyer...It is unlikely that your deck is anything other than gelcoat unless you can see brushmarks from a paint job. So...compound the surface of the deck in a small area and see if the oxidation looks better...then try a polish/wax routine as Halekai suggests or the Poli-glow treatment discussed earlier.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

PM-
There are a lot of good products out there, but in the interest of easy availability, non-chandlery prices, and good tech support from a one-stop shop? I'd call 3M's toll-free number and ask them for specifics about using their fiberglass polishes and products on it. I'm sure you can find their automotive products division on the web, that'll get you started. They are great about getting you to the right department, for ANY product they make, if you call.

Their fiberglass products are used in the auto body shop industry as well as marine and other users. They'll probably tell you to lightly compound the deck (to remove the chalky gelcoat) and then polish it and seal it after a solvent cleaning (i.e. "Prep Solve") to remove all materials that were used on it before. Plain solvents will remove wax--the specialty prep solvents will remove most of the synthetics, silicones, etc. as well.

There are also anti-skid deck waxes, I don't know if 3M makes them, but I'd apply that as the last step to any flat deck surface that you're going to polish.<G>


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

hellosailor said:


> There are also anti-skid deck waxes, I don't know if 3M makes them, but I'd apply that as the last step to any flat deck surface that you're going to polish.<G>


Woody Wax

http://www.woody-wax.com/woody_wax.php

http://www.woody-wax.com/news.php


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## soul searcher (Jun 28, 2006)

*hailing up the sailing vessel Acustic*

Halekia36,
How long did you wait between coats of nu finish?
Thanks for the post by the way, I hope I don't get mugged anytime soon,
there's no way I'm getting my hands over my head 

Chef,
how did you apply the woody wax did you put over the whole top sde or just on the non skid?


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*The only times..*

I use Nu-Finish is when a boat is in the hot south and I apply two coats about three days apart. Again work small areas because this stuff can become dificult to remove if you let it sit to long. It lasts a decent amount of time but does not give the same results as Colinite on a boat up North. Unfortunately carnuba's don't hold up well in very hot climates or even on darker hulls up North. The dark hulls absorb to much heat and will shorten the life of a carnuba based wax. Meguires NXT paste wax is another great auto product that holds up well on boats even in warmer climates. Link below!

Meguiars NXT Generation Tech Wax Paste is a synthetic polymer wax with excellent shine and durability.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

UPDATE:

SO after only a few weeks I have staining in the finish again. I was hoping the Interlux Wax Sealer would reduce this effect but no luck, still gave it a nice shine but didn't live up to its duty as stated on the bottle.

Spray on while cleaning the deck, its not a traditional wax application


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## soul searcher (Jun 28, 2006)

Thanks Hal,
I'm in the deep south The UV Kills every thing in short order. I have used nu finish on my truck for years just never put on more than one coat at a time.
bottle says re coat after thirty days. I coud never remember to do that and just did it as needed.


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## dworkman (Jun 10, 2007)

Hi, Great Info from all, I have been reading and formulating a plan.
I will be doing this to a 1999 38FT R&C Leopard 38 (or Moorings 3800) this winter in FL. The boat is lightly oxidized I would say, and probably hasn't been treated since production. It is not to the point where chalk comes off on hands, clothes, etc...

My plan of attack is:
1. 3M Heavy Duty Rubbing Compound w/CSS Yellow (or Orange?) Pad
2. Presta Chroma 1500 w/CSS Orange (or Blue?) Pad
3. Meguiar's #7 w/CSS White (or Black) Pad
4. Nu Finish Hand Wax with Black Foam Pads

Does this sound logical? If so, how much of each product would you recommend for a one time job on a boat this big? (Including the flat portions of the deck?) Originally I was thinking a gallon of each, but after reading further, it looks like a lot will go a long way?

And how many of each pad would you recommend?

Would you recommend any cleaning solvents or a wet sand in this situation?


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*Don't forget microfiber rags*

Don't forget microfiber rags for wiping off the compound, polish, glaze and wax!!!! You DO NOT remove the compound, glaze, polish or wax with the machine. The machine is for polishing the rags are for removal of the left over residue...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

d-
I suspect that each of those four vendors will tell you to stick with ONE BRAND and not mix them, to ensure there are no compatibility problems. Might go with 3M as they probably have the largest line of fiberglass refinishing products. And they'll probably tell you to use a prep solvent or prep wash at various points as well.
Again, any one of them should be able to tell you how to do the whole job from start to finish with their own products--best to confirm it with the maker you choose. Often "gallon" is the most economical size since it is cheaper than two quarts of the same material. And terry cloth towels (always and only white) beat the heck out of every kind of rag for absorbing things from the work. Wash dry reuse, buy 'em on sale.

With rubbing compounds it pays to start with a LESS aggressive compound than you think you will need. Try it, go more aggressive if you need to--but start with the least aggressive one that you think will work. Even if that means buying just a pint of this or that to try them out first.


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## sail268 (Dec 3, 2006)

*Buffing pad ?*

If I'm applying Finesse-it what pad should I be using? Thanks for all the advice.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

*The 3M*



sail268 said:


> If I'm applying Finesse-it what pad should I be using? Thanks for all the advice.


I've used the 3M 05725 or 05735 (same pad but with rounded edges) foam perfect it pads quite a bit and they work very well for polishing. This is not a pad you want to use for compounding though as it's a polishing grade pad.

3M #05725 Perfect-It Polishing Pad

The two foam pads in the middle are #05725's and the yellow wool pad laying in front of them is also a polishing grade pad. With wool yellow usually denotes polishing and white cutting or compounding.. You'll also need a hook and loop backing plate as the foam pads are hook and loop only..


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## rhoudini (Jun 18, 2009)

*ask...*

very helpful too thanks a lot!

regarding the soap I read you are using IMAR BOAT WASH but I can not find it on their webpage.

also how strong sould be the brush? now im using the yellow one should I use the white one? or none?

-----------------

who knows about Fiberglass Boat Wax (No. 925)???

thanks


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