# Westerbeke Glow Plug



## dbruce85 (Aug 17, 2007)

Has anyone ever found the "real world" cross reference for the Westerbeke 034380 glow plug. They are out of a W46 engine. When I crossed referenced the plugs for my Universal 5411 the price went from around $50.00 for the Universal part # to around $8.00 for the exact same plug ordered from a tractor dealer.
Thanks, David


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

Actually, the glow plugs for a friends Universal diesel were closer to $90 a piece at Torreson.
We found them for $8.xx a piece at a Kubota tractor dealer.

If the engine block is a marinized Kubota you need to look up which Kubota tractor your engine was used in. You can then go to a Kubota tractor dealer and get the part for a reasonable cost.


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## AmandaK (Feb 5, 2014)

*1996 Catalina 28 MK II, won't start...*

I am having a problem starting my 1996 Catalina 28 mk II.

It's a very bizarre thing that's going on. I successfully started it one week and then 4 days later, all it did was sit at the dock, it wouldn't start (this was about 6 weeks ago). I checked the batteries and they were extremely low at 6V so I thought "well there's the problem, I need new batteries!". New batteries arrived today, installed them, fully charged and the boat didn't start!!

It's a new starter on the boat, so it's unlikely that's it. The fuel pump seems to be working fine. Someone suggested that it might be the glow plugs, but it's not even turning over... I tried ether in the air intake a number of times and that didn't start it...

Also the new batteries appear to be draining very quickly with every attempt to start the boat... too quickly.

Any suggestions, at all, would be great.

Thanks,

Amanda


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

Glow plugs are hardly your problem if the engine wont turn over. 
Way to many problems here to resolve on the net.
1. Shore power to battery charger
2. battery power to starter
Figure that out first.
Jim


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## engineer_sailor (Aug 27, 2011)

I've heard of people having issues with the glow plug button. The button must be depressed for the engine to start. Intermittent or poor button operation/contact might make it seem that batteries are low.

Your batteries running down hint at other issues like a short or other drain.

I've also heard that the wiring harness on 80's era Catalina's was inadequate causing lots of voltage drop.

Btw, I have an 1985 Cat 27 with Universal M-18


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Can you turn the motor over with a wrench on the crank pulley? If so, it appears something in your wiring is bad. A quick drain down of your new batteries indicates a serious short or leak to ground. You might try:

1. Disconnect all the wires on the hot side of your battery 

2. Test each with with an ohm meter to ground, they should all be "open", no reading on the meter, unless there is something turned on with diodes in it, if so, turn the item off or un plug it. The wire to the starter solenoid or directly to the alternator may show some reading because of the alternator
having diodes in it. I don't think it should be a low level resistance reading, however

3. Isolate any wire, either at the battery, or at the fuse/breaker buss that shows a resistance reading

4. Make sure the wire or wires from your alternator are re-connected to the hot side of the battery before starting the engine, do not run the alternator "open".

5. With everything but the alternator wire(s), or the wire to the starter solonoid removed from the hot side, use a heavy jumper cable to connect battery to the starter terminal. If it turns over but won't start,
jump to the glow plugs for about 5 to 10 seconds, before trying to start again.

Disclaimer: I am not an expert on anything, only relating what I would try on my own engine. Use this information at your own risk. If you are not fairly knowable about electrics, I strongly suggest you hire a good reliable licensed electrical tech to help you. Let us know what you find. 

Paul T

Forgot this. If your engine has pre-combustion chambers, & I think it does, I have read that using ether in them can cause heap big damage. I used just a small whiff in a VW diesel once and got away with it, but I only did it once.

Paul T


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: 1996 Catalina 28 MK II, won't start...*



AmandaK said:


> I am having a problem starting my 1996 Catalina 28 mk II.
> 
> It's a very bizarre thing that's going on. I successfully started it one week and then 4 days later, all it did was sit at the dock, it wouldn't start (this was about 6 weeks ago). I checked the batteries and they were extremely low at 6V so I thought "well there's the problem, I need new batteries!". New batteries arrived today, installed them, fully charged and the boat didn't start!!
> 
> ...


We need more info. than "the boat didn't start" to get to a specific diagnosis.

Does the engine turn over at all? If not, does the crankshaft turn if you release compression, and use a wrench to turn the crankshaft?

What happens at the volt meter (do you have one?) when you try to engage the starter? Does the voltage drop, or does it stay constant? Is there voltage at all?

Is there a fuse on, or near, the battery? Is it blown?

Did you properly engage the starter (push & hold preheat button while pressing the start button)? Did you notice any noise / any strange smell?

I could go on...

Get us more info, and we'll help you out.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Yes most people seem to use the term "won't turn over" inaccurately. It means, the engine crankshaft does not rotate. 

This sentence worries me : "It's a new starter on the boat, so it's unlikely that's it". The MOST likely cause is the thing you changed last.

Why would you spray ether into the intake to make it turn over?


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## AmandaK (Feb 5, 2014)

The boat does not turn over. I don't believe I am using this loosely as 3 other men have tried and all used the term "not turning over". They are all stumped as to what the problem is.

The starter wasn't the last thing changed, it was changed a year ago. The raw water pump and head gasket were the last things changed on this boat. The boat ran fine for months and now just won't start.

I tried it again this morning and it just chugged... the longer I kept the key turned the slower the 'chugging' got... like it was losing power.

I tested the brand new, fully charged batteries this morning with a handheld voltmeter and they both registered at 13.8 before I attempted to start the boat (unsuccessfully) and then after I measured them again and both were down to 12.3.

eherlihy: haven't tried the crankshaft yet. I'll let mechanic know to try that. i haven't tested the voltage while engaging start motor, but tested before and after. i'll try today and testing during. there are no fuses blow on/near the battery. yes the glow plugs button was engaged from a minimum of 15 to a maximum of 30 seconds prior to attempting to start the engine. other than the strange chugging of the engine there wasn't any odd noises. no odd smells. no smoke from the engine.

marksf: you use ether, better known as starting fluid, to make it turn over. starter fluid is sprayed near the air filter intake in order to get additional fuel to the combustion cylinder quickly... doing this can avoid wear and tear of the starter motor when it won't start...

From the research we have been doing online I am leaning toward engine_sailors suggestion of there being some kind of short or drain specifically affecting the starter battery connection. The 'house' battery seems to be working fine and there is no problem running all the accessories on the boat.

I am going to try a bunch of the great suggestions given here (thanks!). If anyone has any more questions or suggestions they would be most welcome!!!

One other thing it's -1C here (30F). cold, but i've started my boat in colder than this.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

So the engine _*IS *_turning over. The issue is that it is not starting - or to use the venacular, "kicking."

With that info, I can tell you to not bother with the wrench on the crankshaft.

Assuming that this is a diesel, the engine only needs 2 things to start; compression and fuel/air mixture. If there is a compression release, then make sure that it is not releasing the compression in the cylinders, and try to start. The next test would be to preform a compression test on each cylinder. Diesel engines generate 350-500 PSI during the compression stroke.

If that's not the issue, then I suspect that there may be a problem with the fuel/air mixture. Diesels are very picky in that they require a steady supply of clean fuel to be supplied to the injectors. Have you checked your filters? Have you bled the engine lately? If not, those would be my next two steps.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

After rereading your post about the Head Gasket being changed, I am even more convinced that you need to preform a compression test, and if OK, to bleed the fuel lines all the way to the injectors. It may even be worthwhile to have the injectors tested or replaced. I've posted elsewhere where they can be found for certain Universal/Westerbeake diesels for $45 each.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

OK, it's clear we still haven't got our definitions clear (and the 3 people who looked at it don't know what they are talking about)

The chugging noise that gets slower and slower is the sound of the starter motor rotating the engine. This is the definition of turning over. Your engine is turning over. If in doubt, have someone watch the engine while you press the button, and see if the crankshaft is rotating. If it is rotating, the engine is turning over.

You don't use starting fluid to make it turn over, the starter motor does that. The starter fluid makes it start. However, you shouldn't need it and you should throw it away before you wreck the engine.

A healthy engine, with application of working glow plugs, should fire into life within a second or two of engaging the starter. If it requires extended cranking, or starter fluid, then you need to find out the reason.

Extended cranking can suck water into the exhaust manifold and destroy the engine.

Actually, 12.3V from batteries that have been cranking the engine for a while is not too bad. That equates to about 70% charged. Let's assume for now that the batteries are healthy.

What does an engine need to start?

Something to rotate the crankshaft at a reasonable speed
Fuel
Air 
Compression
Source of ignition

A diesel gets it's source of ignition from compression - it compresses the fuel/air mixture enough it make it spontaneously ignite. However this doesn't work very well when the engine is cold, so they have glow plugs to pre-heat the combustion chamber for cold starting. Think of them as 3 little electric fires.

I suspect the reason your engine isn't starting is that the glow plugs aren't working. Without them, it can be extremely hard to start.

In cold weather you need to hold that glow plug button for at least 40s before engaging the starter, to get the cylinders nice and warm.

They might not be working because of a wiring problem, dodgy switch, or they are just plain worn out. 

The first step would be to simply watch the ammeter, if you have one. It should take a big dip, 20-40A, if the glow plugs are working.

Again, stop cranking for ages, stop using starter fluid, and find what is really wrong.

Question : you ARE engaging the glow plugs for 30-40s before you start, aren't you?


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## VallelyJ (Nov 21, 2008)

Not to change the subject back to the original one but my Westerbeke 27 has the Mitzubishi model number (K4D in this case) cast in the block near the throttle control.
As it's a common practice, odds are that your block is also marked somewhere with a model number. If you find numbers or letters (other than the serial number) try Googling it and seeing what kind of hits you get.
John V.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

MarkSF said:


> In cold weather you need to hold that glow plug button for at least 40s before engaging the starter, to get the cylinders nice and warm.
> 
> They might not be working because of a wiring problem, dodgy switch, or they are just plain worn out.


40 seconds on glow plugs, with a healthy bank and proper wiring is a recipe to burn them out. Most all of these glow plugs need a max of 15 seconds in a healthy system. They are rated at 10.5V to account for voltage sag..

As you burn out one glow pug people often press longer thus burning out the remaining glow plugs. Many boaters have very poor wiring and unhealthy batteries thus 40 seconds at 7-8V is not going to do any harm but suggesting 40S when cold to someone with good wiring and healthy batteries or who is starting off a large house bank or who has AGM's can simply result in toasted plugs over time.... I find a large number of engines with all plugs dead or at least one or two.

This past summer I burned out all four with my normal _lead acid_ press time of about 10 seconds using our new LiFePO4 battery bank. My new _safe_ glow time is 3-4 seconds even at an engine block temp of sub 30F.....

This owner may need a longer glow time, if they have marginal batteries and marginal wiring, but may also have already toasted glow plugs too.

Sorry but I had to add this caveat because 40S glow times are NOT normal and not healthy for the glow plugs if everything is in good working order.



MarkSF said:


> *Extended cranking can suck water into the exhaust manifold and destroy the engine.*


*This can not stay unbolded..

If you keep cranking with the seacock open you WILL HYDROLOCK your engine and then you have MUCH larger issues to deal with then what may just be burned out glow plugs....

CLOSE THE SEACOCK while doing extended cranking!!!!!!
*

To answer the OP's question, from a few years ago, remove the old glow plug, clean the red paint off and look for a part number. Once you have a part number a google search will lead you to the brand, once you have the brand cross reference it to an NGK and order them. Most plugs have the brand on them and a part number. eg: Champion, Beru, NGK etc...

They are about $5.00 -$8.00 not the $90.00 Westerbeke wants. For example many Mitsubishi / Westerbeke engines shipped with Champion glow plugs with a CH-XXX number. Many of these are OEM specific but NGK can cross reference them for you.. The last time I purchased glow plugs for our 44B Four the price was less than $6.00 each... Swapping out all four of them is a sub 10 minute job....


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

The manual for my Universal 5424 states : "hold glow plug button for 30s to 1 minute". 

But I think more recent engines in general have faster heating glow plugs (my new VW TDi has plugs that take 1s), so I'd defer to the manual for that engine.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

A bit difficult to trouble shoot from here. If your engine is "turning over" in the starting process and there is not a lot of "smoke & gunfire" coming from the electrical system, it appear the problem may be fuel related, assuming the glow plugs show some resistance on the ohm meter. Possible problems:

1. Tank vent plugged

2. Filter(s) plugged, some pumps may have an integral filter

3. Air leaks, thoroughly check all hoses, fittings, and filter top seals

4. Faulty lift or injector pump(s)

5. No fuel in the tank, just kidding, maybe a plugged pick op tube in the tank?

6. And the list goes on. 

Paul T


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

To insure I don't cook the glow plugs ,I count the correct number of chimpanzees. One chimpanzee, two chimpanzee. Count flashing lights the same way.My old Ford truck needs four chimps ,5 when really cold. Your chimps may vary.


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## eherlihy (Jan 2, 2007)

In Florida we count alligators...  My Universal M25 requires about 10 when it is cold.

I didn't realize that chimpanzees were indigenous to British Columbia...


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

My fuel pump clicks every second or so, so I just count clicks.


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## AmandaK (Feb 5, 2014)

*Re: 1996 Catalina 28 MK II, won't start...*

It's fixed!!!

Thank you all so much for your amazing advice. I learned a lot just from reading your responses.

I tried everything... tested glow plugs (they were fine), new batteries, tested starter solenoid (it was fine), revisited all my battery wiring... it was driving me nuts!

I had a group of fishermen stop by today, mooring for the night at the marina, and they found the problem!

The "aqua lift muffler" was filled with water so there was too much pressure for the engine to even turn over. They figure water froze and then melted during our cold snap (??). The back pressure was just too much for the engine to start. Once they drained that (about 2 litres came out!) the boat started right away! I'll remember to drain this in the future.

Such a relief! Thanks again for all your advice.


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## AmandaK (Feb 5, 2014)

this is great!!! thank so much for such a detailed response. you answered so many of my questions that the mechanics couldn't!


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## AmandaK (Feb 5, 2014)

eherlihy said:


> After rereading your post about the Head Gasket being changed, I am even more convinced that you need to preform a compression test, and if OK, to bleed the fuel lines all the way to the injectors. It may even be worthwhile to have the injectors tested or replaced. I've posted elsewhere where they can be found for certain Universal/Westerbeake diesels for $45 each.


thx for the advice! the head gasket change ended up being a terrible experience with a rip off artist diesel mechanic. i didn't need it changed, plus a bunch of other stuff he did, but he said i did. in the end my problem was simply a plastic bag stuck in my intake (found out this problem AFTER i fired the previous rip off mechanic when i realized i was getting taken for a ride!). all my injectors were removed and cleaned by a new mechanic in July last year and one was found to be faulty... that was switched out with a new one, so i am pretty sure those are all fine.

in the end my problem was that my 'aqua lift muffler' was full of water, creating too much pressure on the engine to start. thank goodness it was figured out!

Thanks again!

Amanda


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## Dfok (Apr 11, 2010)

Hi Amanda - 
There is a active Catalina 28 users group - www.catalina28.net you may not be aware of - lots of experience with pretty much anything that can come up on a 28 there. Its another source for good information


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