# Performance Cruisers and Racer/Cruisers



## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

There is definitely a solid market out there for more performance oriented cruising boats. For some it is the superior sailing qualities of a performance boat, and the ability to get to that weekend anchorage faster than the next guy. For others it is the ability to go out and race with the boys one weekend, and then take the family out cruising the next. It may just be the ability to sail reasonably fast even when the wind strength or direction is less than ideal. Many of us would never be satisfied with a big fat full-keeled slug that needs 20kts to get going, regardless of how comfy it might be, or how much junk you can stow on board.

Having said that, my wife and I both agree that it would be nice to have many of the cruising amenities that we don't have on our current boat. The trick is to find the right balance between creature comforts and sailing performance. When we upgrade our boat next we would like to find that balance in a 35-40ft boat.

So what is the ultimate production performance cruiser or cruiser/racer out there?


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## Cartgate (Apr 10, 2013)

Beneteau First Series


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

We have a couple of friends with B36.7s, and they are nice boats, although the wife isn't too fond of the layout, and the head location. I raced on a 40.7 and I was really impressed with the cleverly designed removable cockpit lockers that opened the cockpit up for racing, yet provided extra seating and storage for cruising.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We've done a lot of miles in the Caribbean on a 36.7 - it's a treat to sail and very responsive. It does lack some storage, the head access is a bit odd.. you have to fight your way around the table, and the galley is on the small side, but as far as a sailing machine I'd have one in a minute. The removeable cockpit locker/seats are an option there too. Also the one we were on is a rare tiller version, which makes the two aft cabins equal in size. We were able to easily accommodate 6 adults on board for a couple of weeks. (granted all were accustomed to living aboard in tight quarters)

The 40.7 would be a notch up, I'd expect and should be a good one too. I'm not sure that there's anything readily available in the NA market that would beat any of the 'Firsts' on that comparison scale (performance AND comfort cruising) except perhaps the J 109 and her larger sisters.. but cost is a big factor there.

If you're following PCPs thread you'll know there are plenty of Euro models that would suit.. shame they are not more widely marketed here though they'd likely be very expensive if they were.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

SHock,

My wife is teh same as yours. DOes not really like the layout of the 36.7, but does like the ones on the jeanneau's. If you can afford right now that sf35 for sale near you, go buy it! That would be my first choice of a 35' boat that I know I could fine, with the sf37 behind it. I can think of a few others I would prefer over the sf37, unless I could fine one cheap, and do some rerigging of it, ie a mast 3-5' taller to get it some more power, posibly even redesign the keel a bit too. I think the big key why the sf37 is probably the better cruiser per say, is it does have a deeper hull than the 35. Hence why also the 35 is a shade quicker than the 37, along with a whopping inch or two more WL. So the 37 will have a bit more carry capacity than the 35.

Marty


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

Take a look at the mid-80's era First 38, 42 or 456. You'll be impressed. I did an article on ours at Southwinds that you might find of interest. (There are some minor errors with dimensions due to editing errors but the overall summary is reasonably accurate.) My 4'11" 102# wife, who is definitely not a racer, loves the boat and has proven quite adept at handling it during her turns on watch, day or night.

FWIW...


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

blt2ski said:


> SHock,
> 
> My wife is teh same as yours. DOes not really like the layout of the 36.7, but does like the ones on the jeanneau's. If you can afford right now that sf35 for sale near you, go buy it! That would be my first choice of a 35' boat that I know I could fine, with the sf37 behind it. I can think of a few others I would prefer over the sf37, unless I could fine one cheap, and do some rerigging of it, ie a mast 3-5' taller to get it some more power, posibly even redesign the keel a bit too. I think the big key why the sf37 is probably the better cruiser per say, is it does have a deeper hull than the 35. Hence why also the 35 is a shade quicker than the 37, along with a whopping inch or two more WL. So the 37 will have a bit more carry capacity than the 35.
> 
> Marty


Yeah we both really like the Jeanneaus. I particularly like the "garage" storage that the 37 has on the port side, accessed through the shower stall. It is a huge space that would be ideal for extra sails, kayak and snorkel gear, etc. (do you know if the 35 has that?)
Unfortunately we are not in a position to snap up that SF35 right now. The wife says we can't get a new boat until we sell our 2nd house. (can you believe how unreasonable wives can be? )
Although we have zeroed in on the Jeanneaus, I wouldn't want to overlook some other good options. It is always good to be informed on what is out there. You never know when one of those rare gems might show up on the market, and it would be unfortunate to miss out on it when it did.
The Dufours look like nice boats. You don't see too many of them around here. The wife does not like the linear galleys that Dufour and Bavaria seem to be so fond of.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

My CS36 Merlin is very comfortable to cruise, fast, and a joy to sail. Fun to race too.
There are some up there for you to look at, and/or if you'd like to come sailing on mine, I'd be happy to help.


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## mm2187 (Sep 8, 2011)

How about a J/109?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

The J boats make a lot of sense for what kind of sailing your doing if you have no draft restriction. Seem to hold up with generally good resale as well.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

It amazes me that boats similar to a C&C 37+ are not among the top sellers. To me it has it all. Great looks, a below deck layout to woo the most discriminating spouse and racy performance to win the performance sailors heart.

View Boat Photos - YachtWorld.com

Why has this design philosophy languished while lard assed tub prevail?


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

There is a C&C 37+ here in Seattle:
Swiftsure Yachts (Seattle, WA)

I have been very happy in my dealings with Swiftsure.. I've been aboard this boat. She looks fast and seems to be well maintained. Huge aft cabin which will come at the expense of aft storage..

Looks like a recent price reduction.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Faster said:


> ...
> 
> The 40.7 would be a notch up, I'd expect and should be a good one too. I'm not sure that there's anything readily available in the NA market that would beat any of the 'Firsts' on that comparison scale (performance AND comfort cruising) except perhaps the J 109 and her larger sisters.. but cost is a big factor there.
> 
> If you're following PCPs thread you'll know there are plenty of Euro models that would suit.. shame they are not more widely marketed here though they'd likely be very expensive if they were.


Faster, if someone is thinking in buying a relatively recent 37/40ft performance boat the best place to do it is Europe and with some luck in French Martinique.

The choice is much bigger and the prices better. I say a relatively recent boat because a recent one (10 year old boat) if well chose will be ready with a minimal preparation to cross the Atlantic.

I agree the First 40.7 is a great boat but there are performance boats with better interior. Probably the best deal in what money regards is the Dufour 40 but you have plenty interesting boats: Salona 37, Elan 37, Elan 40, Comet 38 and 41, GrandSoleil 37 and 40, wauquiez 41, Dehler 36 and 39, not to mention more expensive Nordic boats like x 37 and 40, Arcona 400 and 37, Finngulf 37 and many others.

Sometimes the prices in the used market of what where once very expensive boats is surprisingly close to the price what where much less expensive boats. Probably the best places to buy boats now is Portugal, Spain and specially Italy where Grandsoleils and Comets can be bought at less than half the price.

For the ones that are eventually interested I know of a nice dealer that works with Grand Soleil and sell boats with a one year warranty (given by Grand Soleil).

Regards

Paulo


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Yes, Paulo... Our friends bought their 36.7 new in Guadeloupe for a very good price indeed, and were able to get the tiller version they wanted. It had been a demo and came with a pricey B&G electronics suite too. As Eastern Carib island hopping was on their agenda it was a perfect fit. Now going on 12 years it's served them well - though definitely not the "norm" amongst cruisers there.


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Beneteau 36.7's are nice boats with reasonably good performance. We have our boat's name on the transom of our J/36 in letters 12" high so that the crews with binoculars on the 36.7's can still read who it was that beat them. Coming from a Santana, some of the suggestions above will seem pedestrian. It's going to boil down to what sort of performance/cruising comfort/cost balance you want. When we every now and then pass a J/109 boat-for-boat, we think how happy we are not to have spent five or six times as much as we did. We also enjoy fresh Maine blueberries in muffins hot from the oven. (Do J/109's even _have_ ovens?) All the little things add up to what you enjoy the most. Happy hunting!


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

paulk said:


> Beneteau 36.7's are nice boats with reasonably good performance. We have our boat's name on the transom of our J/36 in letters 12" high so that the crews with binoculars on the 36.7's can still read who it was that beat them. Coming from a Santana, some of the suggestions above will seem pedestrian. It's going to boil down to what sort of performance/cruising comfort/cost balance you want. When we every now and then pass a J/109 boat-for-boat, we think how happy we are not to have spent five or six times as much as we did. We also enjoy fresh Maine blueberries in muffins hot from the oven. (Do J/109's even _have_ ovens?) All the little things add up to what you enjoy the most. Happy hunting!


A bit confused with the performance of the J36. For what I can tell the boat has a PHRF of about 81 while the Benetau 36.7 have about 78 and the J 109 with 78 has about the same as the 36.7. Both the 36.7 and the J109 sailed to their rating should be faster.

J/Boats PHRF Sailing Performance Comparison Table

Of course it all depends on the particular boat (in what regards the J 109 and the First 36.7) but if you look to this IRC list organized by boat speed you will see the 36.7 mixed with the J109 (depending on the particular boat) and also with the Dehler 36 or Elan 37, X 37, C&C 110 and Finngulf 37. in what regards sailing performance and cruising all these boats have a very close performance (along with the First 35). Some have a much better cruising interiors than others.

http://www.blur.se/polar/IRC_rating.pdf

Probably what makes your boat faster is good sailing

Regards

Paulo


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## FarCry (Apr 21, 2007)

Having raced on and against a well sailed J36 I can attest that they are much faster on the water than they appear to be on paper. As Paulk correctly observed, they have a fair number of amenities for cruising comfort at a very reasonable price. The problem I see is that there just aren't very many of them for sale.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

PalmettoSailor said:


> It amazes me that boats similar to a C&C 37+ are not among the top sellers. To me it has it all. Great looks, a below deck layout to woo the most discriminating spouse and racy performance to win the performance sailors heart.
> 
> View Boat Photos - YachtWorld.com
> 
> Why has this design philosophy languished while lard assed tub prevail?


I have always liked the look of those C&Cs, and they certainly appear to have a lot of comfort. I didn't realize that the transom opened up for the swim ladder! That reverse transom is one thing that really dates the design. People like the nice wide open transoms of more modern boats, and of course the extra beam aft means more space aft!

I should find a local 37+ to have a look at. I know my wife would LOVE that aft stateroom!

What is the difference between the 37+ and the 37R? (And why do they call it a 37+ when it is actually a 40? )


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

FarCry said:


> Having raced on and against a well sailed J36 I can attest that they are much faster on the water than they appear to be on paper. As Paulk correctly observed, they have a fair number of amenities for cruising comfort at a very reasonable price. The problem I see is that there just aren't very many of them for sale.


Thanks! We've had our J/36 since 1999, and have enjoyed winning the club championship several times against some obviously hot competition, as well as cruising between New York City and Northeast Harbor, Maine. We've hit 12.5 knots in a blow with just a reefed main up, and 13 knots with the full main, spinnaker and 150% genoa all up at once. Though fast is fun, we've also spent days at anchor, simply relaxing, or perhaps baking blueberry muffins. Eclipse is not for sale (sorry!). There were only about 40 J/36's built, but a good number seem to have migrated to the PNW/Seattle area. J/35's are more common, but lack some of the creature comforts we enjoy unless they've been customized. Around here, we rate 84 PHRF (87 with a roller-furler) while the Beneteau 36.7 rates 93 for 'round the buoys racing. J/109's rate 66. (J/105's rate 96, but you can't stand up below, so why bother?) The J/35 rates 78, and we've passed every one we've raced against as well. The advantage of PHRF is that it adjusts ratings to prevalent local conditions and thus makes the rating more valid than IRC with it's "one size fits all conditions" approach. There are a lot of boats out there. Check them out!


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

djodenda said:


> There is a C&C 37+ here in Seattle:
> Swiftsure Yachts (Seattle, WA)
> 
> I have been very happy in my dealings with Swiftsure.. I've been aboard this boat. She looks fast and seems to be well maintained. Huge aft cabin which will come at the expense of aft storage..
> ...


That one looks like a very well set up and cared for boat! It is a bit older than we intended to get, but the model definitely is on my radar now!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

The diff between the 37+ and 37R is in the interior fit, layout and deck gear/rig. Cruisier more conservative in the +, more austere and more sophisticated respectively in the R. Hopefully you can find comparison pictures on YW. The 37 series is 40 feet long, as the sister 34 is really 36.

They are a big boat.. there's a 37+ on our float at Fisherman's Floats in False Creek, C Dock 2/3 the way down on the right if you want a close up exterior look.


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## mbetter (Jun 13, 2010)

Bene 367s have a very active class in lots of places, more so than most of the other Benes and similar. If I was looking for a cruiser/racer on Lake Michigan, I'd probably go with a 367 or a J-105, I think.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Shock,

A lot of the Jeanneau's with the 2 cabin/sleep area floorplans have that BIG storage area you can get into via a cockpit seat lift, OR thru a door in the shower. THe SO/SF35 and 37 have this options, as does the newer 36i/36iP and 39' versions. I have not been aboard the new 379 or 409, but would assume that they to with a 2 cabin option and that BIG head area, will have access to the aft storage. I know of one person that installed a genset in this area. Not sure I would do the genset they choose to do, ie a gas honda......but I believe some of the what and how in Europe is a bit different than here.

I know the owner of the sf35 that is listed, May still have a c# for him if you want to talk to him direct. 

Marty


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

paulk said:


> ... Around here, we rate 84 PHRF (87 with a roller-furler) while the Beneteau 36.7 rates 93 for 'round the buoys racing. J/109's rate 66. (J/105's rate 96, but you can't stand up below, so why bother?) The J/35 rates 78, and we've passed every one we've raced against as well. The advantage of PHRF is that it adjusts ratings to prevalent local conditions and thus makes the rating more valid than IRC with it's "one size fits all conditions" approach. There are a lot of boats out there. Check them out!


I don't know were you got that number for the First 36.7 (87) but it is not an average one unless it is a shoal draft version and even among those the average will be 82. There are some in the US but they are rare and not the standard version. For what I can tell I would say that an average PHRF for a standard would be between 75 and 78.

In what regards a global PHRF on a standard draft the US the numbers are these:

BC Sailing (1)	78
Charleston (1)	78
Chesepeake (9)	75
Detroit 75 (3)	75
Galveston Bay (2)	78
Gulf PHRF 78 (1)	78
KWRace 78 (1)	78
Lake Erie 75 (3)	75
Lake Michigan (7) 75
Lake Ontario (6) 69
Lake champlain 78
Mid Atlantic (1)	75
Narragansett Bay (6)78
New England (1)	78
Nova Scotia (3)	74
YRALIS (2) 81

:::: FIRST 36.7 ::::

Phrf apart, or even included, the J36 seems to be a great and fast performance cruiser, specially taking into consideration its age, price and good cruising interior.

Regards

Paulo


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## paulk (Jun 2, 2000)

Paulo- All I know is that around here we beat well-sailed B 36.7's almost all the time when we're racing. One passed us once, when they caught a puff that missed us by 200 feet.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Congratulations, it seems you have a very good crew

Probably it means also that the 36.7 that race on those parts have a shallow keel or the crews are not that good. It is not to be expected that after so many years the ratings of the First 36,7 would be incorrect, I mean not one, but the huge majority.

Regards

Paulo


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

Paulo, 

The ratings on J-36's vary with region a little more widely than the 36.7 or J-35. Rod Johnstone swears that the J-36 should have equal speed to a J-35 in most conditions (except light air)and a J-35 generally rates faster than a First 36.7. I have sailed the 36.7 and my impression is that it is less forgiving and not as easy to sail to its rating as the 40.7 which is a boat that I know really well and love for its capabilities. Because the 36.7 is hard to keep at speed they are hard to rate, meaning they take absolutely first rate gear and a really skilled crew to sail to their rating. The J-36 is much more forgiving and so in the hands of a skilled crew can be more consistent, even if its rating were acurate an dit is perhaps a slightly slower boat.

Jeff


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Jeff_H said:


> Paulo,
> 
> The ratings on J-36's vary with region a little more widely than the 36.7 or J-35. Rod Johnstone swears that the J-36 should have equal speed to a J-35 in most conditions (except light air)and a J-35 generally rates faster than a First 36.7. I have sailed the 36.7 and my impression is that it is less forgiving and not as easy to sail to its rating as the 40.7 which is a boat that I know really well and love for its capabilities. Because the 36.7 is hard to keep at speed they are hard to rate, meaning they take absolutely first rate gear and a really skilled crew to sail to their rating. The J-36 is much more forgiving and so in the hands of a skilled crew can be more consistent, even if its rating were acurate an dit is perhaps a slightly slower boat.
> 
> Jeff


Probably you are right but in what regards the comparative performance of J boats they have nailed it pretty well here:

J/Boats PHRF Sailing Performance Comparison Table

and between the J35 and the J36 there is a big difference, or at least the guys from Jboats have found so in testing : 75/75 to 81/84 in what regards PHRF.

Regards

Paulo


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I learned a long time ago that arguing about PHRF ratings, and whether they are correct or not is pointless. There are so many variables to take into account that there are no universally correct ratings. Clearly in PaulK's experience, in the conditions they sail in, the J-boat is consistently faster. I am sure you could find other jurisdictions where the opposite is true.

While there may be lots of 36.7s out there, that doesn't mean that they have a solid and accurate rating. There is a tendency for PHRF ratings to stagnate on active one-design classes. The rating system is designed for a rating to evolve based on historical performance on a boat, and if most of the boats are not in the PHRF fleets their handicap doesn't evolve.

Other than the fact that both boats would fall into the same division, I don't think they can be compared. They are very different boats that are several generations apart, not to mention many thousands of dollars apart in price!


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## svShearwater (Apr 1, 2013)

Definitely one of the fastest performance cruisers you can get in that range is the J/120. Cheaper than a new(er) J/109 and comparable price to the B36.7, but you get 4 more feet and a rating in the low 50's. Not only does the J/120 sail fantastic, but it has a roomy, not cluttered interior. The v-berth is huge, the quarterberth is decent, there is a huge "garage" on the port side for storing things instead of the dreaded second quarterberth. 

Unless you just like newness I find it hard to argue in favor of a J/109 or B36.7. 

Another greater performance cruiser that hasn't been mentioned in that size range is the Aerodyne 38. Rates in the 40's. The interior is spartan compared to the J/120 and they cost more. We looked at several of both and the J/120 was definitely the more cruising friendly of the two. In the end the interior sold us on the J/120. It was the fastest boat in our price that had an interior we really liked. We can race it double-handed, cruise the PNW at speed, or cross the Atlantic easily. Color me happy with our choice so far.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Yes great boat. Better only the J122, I mean in what regards J cruiser-racers but yes, in what regards price, being an older boat, it is probably difficult to beat.


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## svShearwater (Apr 1, 2013)

True the J122 is a great boat. There are two things I don't like about it for cruising though, besides the price. One is the open transom. It looks cool, but you give up storage and a place to sit (the best place to sit on the J120). The second is there is no "garage". It has the dreaded 2nd quarterberth that I think is just silly on a 40' performance cruiser.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

svShearwater said:


> True the J122 is a great boat. There are two things I don't like about it for cruising though, besides the price. One is the open transom. It looks cool, but you give up storage and a place to sit (the best place to sit on the J120). The second is there is no "garage". It has the dreaded 2nd quarterberth that I think is just silly on a 40' performance cruiser.


I don't like it but you can have it with an option that closes the boat and adds storage. It is a removable closed back bench. The boat can also have two aft cabins or a aft cabin and a storage space, it seems you guys call it garage?

It is a bit small but you can see here the closed transom (with storage space) and the 2 cabin version:

The J/122 explained - Jellyfish Charters

For me the only problem is price but than the J120 as a new boat was also a expensive boat compared with a First for instance. It is unfair to say that the J122 is expensive...because it is new.

Regards

Paulo


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## svShearwater (Apr 1, 2013)

I don't want to pick on the J122 because I like the boat and you are right about the aft seat. It is probably removable like with the J109. Best of both worlds. The garage space is still not my preference. It looks like they added a second head (gasp!) and the storage is accessed only from the cockpit. You can walk into the J120 storage bent over from the galley area and access everything plus the shaft, transmission, water heater, and battery charger without climbing over anything. It's a great feature of the design and I would think many people would prefer that over a 2nd quarterberth or 2nd head.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

I have done some racing on J120s, and they certainly are sweet sailing boats! They don't quite pass muster with the wife because she is set on having a large aft berth, and they are a bit over priced.

Speaking of over priced, I just looked on Yachtworld, and there is a 2008 J122 listed for $349,000! That is ridiculous! If I was spending that kind of money I wouldn't be looking at a used J Boat!


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

svShearwater said:


> I don't want to pick on the J122 because I like the boat and you are right about the aft seat. It is probably removable like with the J109. Best of both worlds. The garage space is still not my preference. It looks like they added a second head (gasp!) and the storage is accessed only from the cockpit. You can walk into the J120 storage bent over from the galley area and access everything plus the shaft, transmission, water heater, and battery charger without climbing over anything. It's a great feature of the design and I would think many people would prefer that over a 2nd quarterberth or 2nd head.


You can have access to storage also by the by the head and you can skip the second head on the front cabin. That will allow a lot more storage there.

I know so much because I was very interested by that boat that I visited it as soon as it come to the market. Had a long talk with the guys about everything including price, extra tankage, options and stability. I was overall very impressed and the boat entered on my short list I was considering having. The only real problem was price.

Regards

Paulo


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

SchockT said:


> I have done some racing on J120s, and they certainly are sweet sailing boats! They don't quite pass muster with the wife because she is set on having a large aft berth, and they are a bit over priced.
> 
> Speaking of over priced, I just looked on Yachtworld, and there is a 2008 J122 listed for $349,000! That is ridiculous! If I was spending that kind of money I wouldn't be looking at a used J Boat!


Things are what they are and J boats are top boats, have a very good interior (at least the J 122 that is made in France, I don't know the quality of the American made boats) and its price is similar to boats like X-yachts, Luffe, Grand Soleil or Comet, IT yachts. The price is not ridiculous, it is what cost to make a boat with that quality the way it is done, building techniques and materials.

For having a less expensive boat you have to compromise more and make it in bigger numbers, like the First, Elan, Dufour, Salona and now Dehler. Anyway a top version of any of those boats will cost almost the price of the J 122. The difference is that the J122 is already a top boat in standard version.

Regards

Paulo


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

A member of my club has a J36.. He cruised it to Alaska, and now has it down in Mexico. He was really happy with the boat, and liked to singlehand with just the main.

I looked for his blog, but can't find it..


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

David,

If you are thinking of Paul, he had a J37c, which was sold about a year or so ago in the SE US. Spouse wanted a bigger kitchen per say, so he went with some kind of slow slug of a boat. Almost total opposite of the J37c. It is a bit longer. Sheryl might have the blog somewhere. My LT died, so I am using another computer, other wise I had that blog saved on that on.

Marty


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

PCP said:


> Things are what they are and J boats are top boats, have a very good interior (at least the J 122 that is made in France, I don't know the quality of the American made boats) and its price is similar to boats like X-yachts, Luffe, Grand Soleil or Comet, IT yachts. The price is not ridiculous, it is what cost to make a boat with that quality the way it is done, building techniques and materials.
> 
> For having a less expensive boat you have to compromise more and make it in bigger numbers, like the First, Elan, Dufour, Salona and now Dehler. Anyway a top version of any of those boats will cost almost the price of the J 122. The difference is that the J122 is already a top boat in standard version.
> 
> ...


Well if I had that kind of money to spend I would buy one of the "compromise" boats and then buy a Farr 30 to race with the boys!


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

SchockT said:


> Well if I had that kind of money to spend I would buy one of the "compromise" boats and then buy a Farr 30 to race with the boys!


Yes you can do that, but would need to be two times richer because a Farr 30 (and all its sails) is a very expensive boat. and a good cruising boat with the same quality of the J122 would not be less expensive.

But even if you are that richer, if instead racing around the cans you prefer offshore ocean racing, then the J122 is a better racing boat and you would not need to buy a second boat: That boat is a winner at high level and can cruise with comfort, giving you sailing pleasure while cruising.

Last year they had won the ROLEX MIDDLE SEA RACE (1st and 3th).

Just some more information about that, and victories in main offshore races and championships:

*"Racing against the latest 40' competition, J/122 continues its ability to win in all conditions around the world- Fastnet Race (UK), Island Double (UK), RORC Championship (UK/ FRA), OSTAR Race, Bermuda Race (US), Rolex Big Boat Series (US),

Sydney IRC Offshore Championship (AUS), Annapolis-Newport (US), Chicago-Mac (US), Chicago-Mac Double (US), Port Huron-Mac (US), Spi Ouest (FRA), Rolex Middle Sea Race (Malta), Ft. Lauderdale-Key West (US), Rolex US IRC Championship (US), Stamford-Vineyard Race (US), Block Island Race (US), Rolex International Regatta (USVI), St. Maarten Heineken Regatta, Antigua Race Week, just to name a few. No other 40 footer has equaled its unique ability to win in light air, flat water to heavy air and enormous seas on any point of sail. Proof is in J/122's winning record with a wide variety of sailors, from fully-crewed to double-handed."*

http://jboats.com/j122

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Paulo,

For the most part, some of us like shock and faster in the northern salish sea, Dodenja and myself, in southern salish sea and literally dock mates as close or closer than anyone else on sailnet.....live in an area that from a racing standpoint, only have buoy racing available. So one either gets a boat that can do that well, ie a stripped racer like a farr 30 or other 1d boat which seems to be few and far between, or one seems to go with a cruiser of some sort, and makes do racing the many races available. 

There are a number of J's inthe 40' range local that do race, as there is also a number of other J's in the mid 30-40' range. The 105's seem to be the most loyal 1d group. The 30's, 35's and 109's do not seem to get out as a group that often. We might have enough 111's sold to form a group, but not sure on that one as of yet. Otherwise, the only other 1d in a boat that can cruise that are active are older boats under 30 for the most part, T-birds, San jaun 21 and 24, Moore 24, santacruz 27, along with daysailors such as lasers.

There are probably only 5-6 races I would call ocean style locally, swiftsure, Vic-maui, Van isle and one that goes from Astoria Oregon to Victoria Canada a week or so before vic-maui. Southern straights might be considered a longer off shore, but not really offshore. Not sure I would call VanIsle a true off shore either, as most of the legs around vancouver island are 15-125 for the longest, and you stop ea night as you sail around the island over 2 weeks. So a different sailing venue than you have in europe. 

Reallity is, shocks idea of a F30 and another boat works. Altho if it were truly me, due to lack of wind around here, I would do an F30 and a tug style with a semi-planinghull that would get me places a bit quicker and out of the weather at times. Or possibly a planing style boat, with a larger cockpit so one can fish out of it for salmon, halibit etc and get to places quickly, and have a place to stay warm, sleep etc.

Marty


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

blt2ski said:


> David,
> 
> If you are thinking of Paul, he had a J37c, which was sold about a year or so ago in the SE US. Spouse wanted a bigger kitchen per say, so he went with some kind of slow slug of a boat. Almost total opposite of the J37c. It is a bit longer. Sheryl might have the blog somewhere. My LT died, so I am using another computer, other wise I had that blog saved on that on.
> 
> Marty


Well.. that explains why I couldn't find his J36 blog!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

For a dozen of so years we owned (in partnership with friends) a 40 foot racer/cruiser - which we rarely raced - and a 24 foot dayracer. It really was the best of both worlds. My friend and I raced the boat with our sons as they grew through their teens, it was a quick, nimble boat ideal for short RTB races. In summer and non race weekends we cruised the bigger boat, at times we attended regattas with both 'mothership' and racer. It was great fun, out teenage kids were happy to spend time with the old guys.. as the Mastercard guys said... 'priceless'...

A M242 is a whole different ball game than an ambitious Farr 30 program, however, so I see Paulo's point about the costs that could be associated with that. However the 2-boat concept can work... BTDT.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

blt2ski said:


> Paulo,
> 
> For the most part, some of us like shock and faster in the northern salish sea, Dodenja and myself, in southern salish sea and literally dock mates as close or closer than anyone else on sailnet.....live in an area that from a racing standpoint, only have buoy racing available. So one either gets a boat that can do that well, ie a stripped racer like a farr 30 or other 1d boat which seems to be few and far between, or one seems to go with a cruiser of some sort, and makes do racing the many races available.
> 
> ...


Marty, an offshore racer likes to do offshore races and I know of some that do thousands of miles to go racing. wherever you live if you want to do a lot of offshore races you are going to sail a lot to attend the races or will have a crew or someone to get the boat there. Normally offshore races are also major events and it is possible to find some sponsorship and that diminish costs.

When I was talking about being rational buying a J122 for cruising and racing I was talking in generic terms. Shock has said that the price of the boat was ridiculous. I was explaining that it is not, not implying that it suits him, unless he has the budget for the boat.

When a boat has a ridiculous price the boat don't sell and is taken out of production, like the Catalina 400, for instance. The J122 is on production for many years and they continue to sell boats so, not only the price is not ridiculous as the boat has been a commercial success for many years.

As I have said that boat is not meant for the ones that compete at club racing, many times with old boats. The boat is pointed to the ones that want to compete in major races at top level and want also a performance cruiser for cruising.

There are few boats that can manage that has successively as the J 122 and at a sensible price. For the price of a top racing boat you get a top racing boat and a very good performance cruiser. A performance cruiser with that quality would have cost a similar price anyway so you get for the price of one boat a boat that can handle with top marks cruising and racing. You are saving the price of one boat, the racer or the cruiser.

The J122 is expensive? Of course good boats are expensive but the boat is not more expensive than other similar boats with the same quality and not as good racing.

I was only pissed with the price of a J122 to be considered ridiculous. That's an average price for that type of boat (quality interior included).

Of course any used boat is less expensive than a new one an in what regards racing, if there is a new model from the same brand, less fast and less competitive. What make the ideal boat to anyone has to do with the budget one has. Some has the budget to buy the best boat for what they want to do others have to compromise and chose the best boat inside the budget and that means sometimes an older and slower boat.

Regards

Paulo


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

> When a boat has a ridiculous price the boat don't sell and is taken out of production, like the Catalina 400,


Oh... SNAP!!


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Faster said:


> Oh... SNAP!!


Well, I just remember that one, there are a lot more there are in the catalog that don't sell and only are maintained as an option because the production is not an industrial one.

What I find odd regarding the Catalina 400 is that it was taken out of production without being replaced. Being a 40ft one of the sizes that sell more I just can't understand that as a commercial strategy. Why have they done that and not replaced in time the 400 by a more modern and appealing boat? Are they in trouble? or it is just bad management?

Regards

Paulo


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## jorgenl (Aug 14, 2006)

PCP said:


> What I find odd regarding the Catalina 400 is that it was taken out of production without being replaced. Being a 40ft one of the sizes that sell more I just can't understand that as a commercial strategy. Why have they done that and not replaced in time the 400 by a more modern and appealing boat? Are they in trouble? or it is just bad management?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


I find that very strage as well.

Both the C400 and C470 has been taken out of production and replaced by the C385 and the C445.

I would have thought that 40' and 47' are sweet spots that a manufacturer definetely would like to be present in?

Now, I suspect I know why the C400 and C470 were taken out of production ( in addition to being "old" desgins), the reason could be that despite the relatively high price, Catalina did not make as much money on them as they did/do on other models such as their replacements. The C400 and C470 has much more wood and cabinets etc in interior and some replacement models such as the C387, C385 and to a lesser extent the C445 has been somewhat value engineered in that regard to reduce cost.

Now, the J122 is a sweet boat. Maybe next time...


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

There are 3 J122s on Yachtworld right now.
2 of them are in the $250k range and one is over $350k. Either 2 of them are ridiculously under priced, or one is ridiculously OVER priced.

Whatever. For that kind of money I wouldn't buy one. I have enjoyed sailing on various Js over the years, but I don't like them enough to pay their premium price. I just don't think they are THAT nice! (One exception was a J 160; it was amazing!If money was no object that would be high on my list.

If I was independently wealthy and able to travel around the world racing in ocean races I wouldn't be doing it in a racer/cruiser, I would do it on a full on race boat. But I'm not. I have a job, and a family, and I have no interest in ocean racing all over the world, even if it were feasible for me.

When it comes to club racing around here, Jboats are by no means dominant. In fact they quite often get beat up on by much cheaper, older designs. Most Js seem to stink in light air, which is what we get a lot of around here.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

SchockT said:


> There are 3 J122s on Yachtworld right now.
> 2 of them are in the $250k range and one is over $350k. Either 2 of them are ridiculously under priced, or one is ridiculously OVER priced.
> ...


In what regards boats that are used for top racing the price and quality of the sails can have a substantial value, even if compares with the boat value. That is probably what explains that difference in price regarding those boats.

The price of performance boats that are used for top racing is maintained very high while those boats remain competitive at the highest level and then come down substantially when they are not anymore.

The fact the the J122 maintains yet a high value, for a boat designed almost 10 years ago, relates with the boat remaining competitive at any level. That made that boat an excellent buy for the ones that bought it when the boat come to the market and could enjoy and unusual number of years of racing at top level. Most boats don't remain competitive for so many years.

For ones that want an used fast performance boat for cruising and club racing the best time to bought it is when a top boat, like the J122 stop to be competitive at top level and lots of top racers are trying to sell the boats.

Suddenly a boat can have its value reduced for almost 50%. Because there are more sailors racing at top level with almost new boats I believe you can notice that more in Europe than in the US or Canada.

Regards

Paulo


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## svShearwater (Apr 1, 2013)

blt2ski said:


> David,
> 
> If you are thinking of Paul, he had a J37c, which was sold about a year or so ago in the SE US. Spouse wanted a bigger kitchen per say, so he went with some kind of slow slug of a boat. Almost total opposite of the J37c. It is a bit longer. Sheryl might have the blog somewhere. My LT died, so I am using another computer, other wise I had that blog saved on that on.
> 
> Marty


Marty, pretty sure Paul bought an Outbound 44 or 46. Hardly a slow slug of a boat. That's about as performance oriented of an offshore cruiser as you can get in that size range.


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## svShearwater (Apr 1, 2013)

It's curious all the focus on the J/122 when you can get a J/120 for half the price and give up??? A little bit of speed and newness, I think.

The J/120 used to seem like an expensive boat compared to others in that range, but if you look on yachtworld now, most of the 10 for sale are under $150k. That compares quite well to the B40.7 and B36.7. You would really be splitting hairs to call that a premium price for a J boat.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

svShearwater said:


> Marty, pretty sure Paul bought an Outbound 44 or 46. Hardly a slow slug of a boat. That's about as performance oriented of an offshore cruiser as you can get in that size range.


Paul's Blog:
SV J Georgia

It's an Outbound 44


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

svShearwater said:


> It's curious all the focus on the J/122 when you can get a J/120 for half the price and give up??? A little bit of speed and newness, I think.
> 
> The J/120 used to seem like an expensive boat compared to others in that range, but if you look on yachtworld now, most of the 10 for sale are under $150k. That compares quite well to the B40.7 and B36.7. You would really be splitting hairs to call that a premium price for a J boat.


The focus on the J122 was only because someone said it was ridiculously expensive. The reason the J 120 is a lot less expensive now is precisely because the J 122 is a better top racing boat and at top racing has substituted by the J120.

I agree with you that difference in speed may not be important for someone that only uses the boat to cruise but for someone that uses it for cruising and racing it is and the J122 is a dual purpose boat.

There is a difference in PHRF of 30 points. That is the difference that separates a Catalina 400 from a First 36.7, a considerable one.

As with the J120 it will come the day that a new and faster J will come to the market to substitute the J122 and then it will happen with the J122 what happened wth the J 120: *"The J/120 used to seem like an expensive boat compared to others in that range, but if you look on yachtworld now, most of the 10 for sale are under $150 000."*

It will not take more than 3 or 4 years. Then it will be the time for a cruiser to buy a J122 unless money is not an obstacle and he can buy a new one now. As I have said it is not more expensive than similar quality new boats.

Regards

Paulo


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## Greyhound37 (Mar 25, 2012)

I don't think this boat has been discussed yet. I wanted to stay around 38 feet, large enough to do some offshore but small enough for minimum crew. Rates high 60's to mid 70's depending on boat specifics.




Since that slide show was taken the boat has been modified and dialed in more to the racing side. Delete the furling add twin foil
hydraulic back stay
delete shoal keel, add deep keel
lots of electronics
excellent glasswork and buil like a tank
heavy cruising gear has quick release like the windlass, dinette...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

I guess if you want to sell it maybe there is someone interested, it is a great boat....but as it is the only one in the States it is a bit difficult to find it on the used market

By the way what is the PHRF you have on that boat?






These guys had done well on the world ORCI championship with one.


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## Greyhound37 (Mar 25, 2012)

This boat came in with a 5'9" shoal keel so she was great off the wind but upwind forget it. At that point she was 75. Now she has a factory/Jason Ker LCG race keel that takes her to 7'8". Similar to doing laps at Watkins Glen on street tires then dialing in the suspension and switching to soft gummy slicks. Mmmmmm
PHRF has not assigned a new rating for this keel.


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## Greyhound37 (Mar 25, 2012)

As mentioned above the J-120 is a great performer but the interior is very basic and small for her length I thought.


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Well, Good to know paul bought something quick or at least on par with the J37. Somehow I thought it was a slower style but bigger boat. 

Marty


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## svShearwater (Apr 1, 2013)

I looked at the Salona 38 at the Dusseldorf Boat Show earlier this year and it was easily the stand out boat for the show for me. Nice exterior lines, well thought out interior, really one of the best interiors for a boat of that size regardless of performance orientation, and the price if I remember right, was quite attractive for a new boat. Winner in my book.

As for interiors, I would expect the interior of a performance cruiser to feel smaller than a comparable length slug boat. That's part of the trade-off. You can't have it both ways. It was an easy call for us though. We were looking for the interior of a 35-footer, we just wanted to go as fast as possible with that much space. There were a jillion other boats we could have gone for with more interior space in that size range, but none of them sailed as well.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

My choice too in what regards price/quality and yes the interior is not only nice but has a good storage, even in the cockpit with lots of space on the central locker. I sailed the boat with very light wind (2K) and it was possible to sail, making wind and going faster than the wind (the boat had the performance and the premium sails options).

http://www.salonayachts.com/documents/Sailing+Yachting, 11-2012.pdf


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## svShearwater (Apr 1, 2013)

Here is a nice blog post from Morgan's Cloud that explains in gory detail why I'm happy our 40 footer has the interior of a 35 footer.

8 Tips For a Good Voyaging Boat Interior Arrangement

There is no free lunch.


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## NewportNewbie (Jul 30, 2011)

Schock 35? PHRF 72. Comfy Interior. Great sailing boat.....Aside from that I like the Junneau Sunfast 3200, Elan 310 and the Beneteau First 30. I am a 35 foot and under type of guy.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks SW- good article. Interesting what he says about narrow boats and berths. The Boreal is not a particularly narrow boat compared to some others but still a really sweet boat. Fortunate my new boat incorporates virtualy all the features he mentions.Sounds like yours does too. Would have liked him to speak more to features he likes in the galley area. Find the ergonomics of that area is not well thought out in too many boats.


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