# Long Range WiFi -- Posting right now using "long range" wireless



## Bene505

I hooked up my new Ubiquiti Bullet2HP to a 12v source and I am making this post using it right now. Really nice.









Of course, I'm very close to my own wireless access point at home, in fact there's no antenna connected to the Bullet. I'm using a 12v spotlight battery for power. When I get to our boat, I'm going to hook it up to the mystery antenna at the top of my mast. Once that's accomplished, you can be sure I'll have my pick of wireless networks to use.









To hook this up, I got a piece of normal Cat5 cable and carefully stripped off the outer plastic shell, revealing 4 pairs of wires. I hooked +12 volts to the blue pair (solid blue and blue striped), and ground to the brown pair (solid brown and brown striped). The Bullet immediately powered up with the "on" LED lit up. The other 2 pairs of wires remained connected to the plug at the end of the cable. I plugged that plug into my laptop. Then I followed these instructions: http://www.ubnt.com/downloads/Nano_Quick_Set-up.pdf The instructions are for another product, but they are close enough to figure out what to do.

If you aren't comfortable stripping wire (or stripping striped wire), you can get a Power Over Ethernet (POE) device, that breaks-out a power connection for you. There's a simple one that costs about $6 that I saw online, that would be suitable for use on a sailboat. Other POE "injectors" may be starting with 110volts, where you don't have to.

Once you have it setup, you can have it automatically find wireless networks, or you can set it so you can choose which wireless network you want to connect to. The former may connect you to a less-than-optimal network (perhaps a strong signal coming from another boat that is also simply a repeater), while the latter method would have to be done at each new anchorage. I went with the former, but I can easily change it through the web interface that the little device has built into it.

Here's the setup:









When I do install it, I plan to wrap it in electrical tape like the installer did for this one. Actually, I'll wrap the tape lower, since a few (actually, ten) Bullets had leaks under the clear cover that's over the LEDs -- bad glue that they've since fixed. To help it last a long time, I'll probably use electrical tape down to right below the LEDs. White tape would also look better too. 









You'll need to get a WiFi (2.4 GHz) antenna with a female "N" type connector. The Bullet attaches right to the antenna at the top of your mast - no antenna cable. You have a Cat5 cable carry the signal (and power) to the unit. This eliminates the signal loss that you usually get from running a coax cable up to the mast. Here's an example:









When you unscrew the lower cover, you can see where the Cat 5 cable attaches. The lower cover has a hole for the cable that has white plastic O-ring. I tore it while removing it, so be careful when taking that grommet off the unit and sliding it over the Cat 5 cable. I plan to tape it up pretty thoroughly with electrical tape, so no harm done.









Choose an antenna that's right for the amount of pitching and heeling/rocking you will be doing when you surf the Internet. Unless you are at a dock or otherwise facing a specific direction all the time, you'll want to get an omnidirectional antenna. These antennas are available in increased gain, but the higher the gain, the narrower the vertical width of the beam. So heeling and pitching will affect a 12db gain antenna much more than a 6db gain antenna. From some cursory research, 6db to 10db ought to work. Since I plan on using the Internet mostly at anchor, if I didn't already have an antenna, I'd go for an even higher-gain omnidirectional antenna, maybe even 15 db or more. The higher the gain the longer the antenna gets, it seems. A 15db omnidirectional antenna will probably be 70 to 90 cm long and pull in signals from pretty far away. We'll see what range I get with my set up, using an unknown antenna that came with our boat.

At home, with no antenna, I pulled in my own wireless network. By holding a 6 inch wire onto the antenna plug, I could see 3 wireless networks. I can only imagine what I see once I get a real antenna connected.

Finally, I may hook a Linksys wireless router to the Bullet, so that I have WiFi in our boat. From what I understand, the Bullet can be setup as a repeater and serve your wireless laptops on your the boat, but I may use a separate device anyway (something about throughput). But initially I'll use a wire to my Bullet. I can get it setup that way quicker and I will be burning less amps (8 Amps, I think).

There is a forum for this product. Some useful threads are there. (Careful, one of the threads linked to an antenna with a female "type N" connector. You will need a male connector.)
marine wifi?? - Ubiquiti Networks Forum
Best Marine Antenna for B2HP Bullet - Ubiquiti Networks Forum

For the techie types - and if you made it this far then you are one - here's the datasheet: http://www.ubnt.com/downloads/b2hp_datasheet.pdf

Here are some places to buy it: bullet2hp - Google Product Search Note that you choose how powerful you want it to be. I got the 800 mW one by accident because I didn't pay close enough attention. I'd go for the 1000 mW one. It costs a bit extra, but considering the effort to get everything in place and buy an antenna, it's worth it.

***EDIT: I'm not affiliated with Ubiquiti, not related to anyone there, don't even know anyone there. I saw the product mentioned in another WiFi thread and thought I'd try it out.***


----------



## huguley3

I have had nothing but irritation with my bullet2 and I have not even powered it on yet. I have ordered 2 antennas from 2 different vendors both saying they are N-type female and neither of them fit the unit. If I had to do it over again I would just get the pico and be done with it several times over.


----------



## Bene505

huguley3 said:


> I have had nothing but irritation with my bullet2 and I have not even powered it on yet. I have ordered 2 antennas from 2 different vendors both saying they are N-type female and neither of them fit the unit. If I had to do it over again I would just get the pico and be done with it several times over.


Is it irritation with the Bullet2 or with the antennas?


----------



## Bene505

huguley3 said:


> I have had nothing but irritation with my bullet2 and I have not even powered it on yet. I have ordered 2 antennas from 2 different vendors both saying they are N-type female and neither of them fit the unit. If I had to do it over again I would just get the pico and be done with it several times over.


In case it helps, you can tell the female connector as the one where you can see the threads in plain view.









The male connector has the threads inside the thing you turn to tighten. The threads are hard to see.

Maybe the people on the other end of the phone need some educating before they ship it to you. Either way, it's a shame that it's keeping you from some good connectivity.


----------



## scottyt

i built an omni ant that is built right on to a usb wireless adapter. it works well but is slightly directional. it has picked up networks from about a mile, but i did not try to connect to em.

i also have a linksys router running wwdrt, set up in wireless repeater mode that i was going to use on the boat. problem is my home router died just as i got the linksys running so it got stuck at home. 

i need to get one of these things too, then i have three options. 

i do like the usb thing, becuase it take no outside power, and i have it on about 20 feet of usb cable built in to a pvc tube. so its weather tight, i just hang it when i need it


----------



## huguley3

Bene505 said:


> Is it irritation with the Bullet2 or with the antennas?


Its irritation with the antennas or better the people selling the antennas. I got the female ends but they are too small and don't even come close to fitting.

Also the vendors I talked to kept steering me to high gain antennas even though I told them many times I am on a boat and the gain could make things worse not better. Finally I told them I just wanted an antenna ANY antenna so I could power up the thing and configure it. By that point I had pretty much lost faith in them and just gave up. I will probably just order a pico and call it good. Now I have a strange assortment of antennas and parts.


----------



## Bene505

huguley3 said:


> Its irritation with the antennas or better the people selling the antennas. I got the female ends but they are too small and don't even come close to fitting.
> 
> Also the vendors I talked to kept steering me to high gain antennas even though I told them many times I am on a boat and the gain could make things worse not better. Finally I told them I just wanted an antenna ANY antenna so I could power up the thing and configure it. By that point I had pretty much lost faith in them and just gave up. I will probably just order a pico and call it good. Now I have a strange assortment of antennas and parts.


You could sell them on eBay.

I heard somewhere that there were 2 types of N connectors. I don't have the time now to research it, but that could be the problem. After you get one that works, can you post pictures of the differences to help others avoid that problem?

Regards


----------



## Cruisingdad

Great post, Bene. Great post. I am sending you a PM.

- CD


----------



## speciald

I'musing a Portnetwork directional antenna here in the Baltimore inner Harbor. It is picking up about 30 signals. I have it attached to the mast about 10 feet off the water.It works best, of course, when the boat is not swinging around at anchor. I also have a 5-mile amplifier I use at anchor but its reception is not as impressive.


----------



## hellosailor

Great write up, Bene!

Instead of electrical tape, try a roll of "self vulcanizing butyl tape" aka "coax seal" or self-stick silicone tape, which is clear instead of black. The butyl & silicone tapes are in the plumbing section at the big-box hardware stores and they adhere to themselves--with no goo or adhesive. Lasts much better than electrical tape, costs more of course.

And I'd put a dab of silicon grease in the terminal fittings, to ensure no water or oxidation in them.

Sure is a nice elegant solution to hoist aloft.


----------



## huguley3

Bene505 said:


> You could sell them on eBay.
> After you get one that works, can you post pictures of the differences to help others avoid that problem?
> 
> Regards


In my attempts to get something that worked I got some adapters and the adapter that I got had the correct and incorrect ends on it. The online pictures are not good enough that you can tell the difference so I doubt that it will be much help. But maybe someone can put a name to the wrong one so that you can ask.


----------



## richardhula

*Bullet M2HP installation*

Having recently installed a Bullet M2HP on my sailboat I have written a configuration guide to take you from as shipped to happily hooked up to a WiFi access point stage.

Richard


----------



## richardhula

Unfortunately being a new member forum rules require I make two plain posts before I can add any upload content so please bear with me.

Richard


----------



## richardhula

*Bullet installation configuration*

OK here it is. This guide addresses issues I've not seen covered in any other.










I bought my equipment from these guys including POE box & 12db omni antenna which is supplied with bracket & fits straight on to Bullet. Total cost with 15 metres of screened Cat 5e cable $139.

Configuration instructions, which although written for M2HP will get you up & running with 2HP as well.



I have my Bullet hooked up to a surplus 802.11n router. My laptop, TV & smartphone all share the connectivity.










Richard


----------



## Bene505

One thing I noticed which bears adding here.... The Bullet2HP has to be turned on AFTER your laptop comes on. So if you have just powered-up your laptop, you have to cycle your Bullet2HP off (I usually wait a few second with it off) and then on again.

We currently have ours hoistable on a halyard. The final installation at the top of the mast will take place after I get the CAT5 cable run inside the mast. That's a 2-person job and we've been too busy having fun this past summer.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## richardhula

Hmm I think that might be an issue with your machine. My Bullet is left on permanently at the moment. As soon as my laptop boots up or its brought out of sleep mode, it connects. This is true with direct LAN connection or with my present setup, Bullet->802.11n WLAN router->laptop 802.11n WLAN adaptor (2x2 130Mbps).

I'm running Windows 7 x64 so that may explain why I don't have the same issue.

BTW I found that best settings for my WLAN router were with DHCP off as that task is performed by Bullet. I simply plug Bullet LAN cable into one of the four LAN sockets on router (doesn't have WAN port) & it provides transparent connection.

Would be interested to hear if you receive substantially better signal strengths with antenna at top of mast compared to say 6 feet above deck.

Regards


----------



## DropTop

I used to own and operate a Wireless Internet company in the mid-west. I have used many of Ubiquti's commercial products with great suceess, but never the consumer line such as the Bullet. 

I can tell you that things like increasing your antenna height, and higher gain antennas will all make large differences in the ability to reliably pick up a signal from a long distance.

As for the comment about avoiding high gain antennas on the water, that most definitly does NOT apply to wifi antennas. the higher the gain the better they will perform in nearly all situations.

As for the Antennas, Pacific Wireless makes very good low priced 2.4 Ghz outdoor omni antennas. They can be purchased from streakwave.com, and their sales staff is quite knowledgable (their main office is practically across the street from Ubiquiti, you won't find anyone with better knowledge).

to be clear, I do not have any affilliation with either company, but I do know people at each of them as a result of doing business with them for years.


----------



## richardhula

Yes I agree with all your points (I too have served my time in microwave coms) although you didn't mention vertical beam width.

Rightly or wrongly I ignored popular advice on using an omni of no more than 6dB gain to avoid this issue. I have a 12dB gain one which claims an 8° vertical beam width, but so far no problems. If my boat is rolling so much at anchor that I start to loose Internet connectivity, that would be the last thing on my mind.

It's probably not practical to put a 12db gain omni at the top of the mast given its 4 foot length, so I was wondering what Brad was using.

I would be particularly interested to know how a 12dB omni performed on average at say 12 feet above the water compared to a 6dB one 60 feet up, given that most AP's are around 15-20 feet above ground in the Caribbean.


----------



## Bene505

richardhula said:


> Yes I agree with all your points (I too have served my time in microwave coms) although you didn't mention vertical beam width.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly I ignored popular advice on using an omni of no more than 6dB gain to avoid this issue. I have a 12dB gain one which claims an 8° vertical beam width, but so far no problems. If my boat is rolling so much at anchor that I start to loose Internet connectivity, that would be the last thing on my mind.
> 
> It's probably not practical to put a 12db gain omni at the top of the mast given its 4 foot length, so I was wondering what Brad was using.
> 
> I would be particularly interested to know how a 12dB omni performed on average at say 12 feet above the water compared to a 6dB one 60 feet up, given that most AP's are around 15-20 feet above ground in the Caribbean.


Yes, it's 4 feet long. The mast had a "mystery antenna" mounted atop it that I took down. Everything is a match threading-wise.

I did some tests and saved screenshots. Mainly using a 9 db versus a 12 db gain antenna. i still have to post about it. Been a bit too busy to get my head around it. It's coming though. Let's just say that I hit the marina 1/2 mile away at 2.4+Mbps.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## DropTop

Vertical beamwidth is a consideration, but I beleive the water will actually partially negate that as there may be significant multi-pathing from being reflected off the surface of the water. There is a trade off, but I think the gain from a higher gain antenna (yes, pun intended) outweighs the downside of the smaller beamwidth in the size antennas that people will be mounting on their boats.

@Bene505, As for getting connection from 1/2 a mile away... that's nothing. with clear line of sight, the 400mw transmitter (I pulled that spec from memory from some old sales material I saw when it was first coming out so it may be off), and a 12dBi antenna, you should be able to connect from 6 or 7 miles away. With properly aimed directional antennas and lower power transmitters than the bullet you have, I've completed links of nearly 30 miles


----------



## sailingdog

At longer distance, the vertical beam angle is less of an issue. It is really only at shorter distances that it is a significant issue. The further you are from the WiFi hotspot, the more height the vertical beam angle will cover.


----------



## Bene505

richardhula said:


> Hmm I think that might be an issue with your machine. My Bullet is left on permanently at the moment. As soon as my laptop boots up or its brought out of sleep mode, it connects. This is true with direct LAN connection or with my present setup, Bullet->802.11n WLAN router->laptop WLAN adaptor.


In that case, you may have to power-up the Bullet after powering up the router. When I directly connect the laptop (via wires), I have to power up the Bullet last. The same thing may be happening with a direct connection to the router. Not sure. It is certainly no big deal though.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## DropTop

sailingdog said:


> At longer distance, the vertical beam angle is less of an issue. It is really only at shorter distances that it is a significant issue. The further you are from the WiFi hotspot, the more height the vertical beam angle will cover.


correct, but the closer you are the stronger the signal will be, and the more signal reflection you will have, so you will still have a useable signal, even if each side's antenna is not in the focused part of the beam. Plus the beam widths are not hard edges, look at a antenna RF radiation patterns in the specs and you will see that there are significant amounts of RF energy being pumped out in other directions beyond the advertised beamwidth. look at page 2 of the PDF linked below for an example.

http://www.streakwave.com/mmSWAVE1/Video/Pawod24-v2.pdf


----------



## Bene505

sailingdog said:


> At longer distance, the vertical beam angle is less of an issue. It is really only at shorter distances that it is a significant issue. The further you are from the WiFi hotspot, the more height the vertical beam angle will cover.


That's true if your antenna is at a different height that the shore-side antenna. If there are surrounding cliffs, for instance with houses on top.

That's less true is you are purely concerned about pitching* at anchor. Then extra beamwidth will really help you. I find that our boat doesn't pitch that much usually. (50' boat, 10 foot water depth, 3 miles of fetch, monohull.) But the 30 foot boats around us have pitched up and down 20 degrees from horizontal in a blow. (Remember Mainsails videos of anchorages up there?) That's not the normal conditions at the anchorage, but it is a time when you would want connectivity to see where the storm is going.

As another thought on this, the TCP/IP protocols have some provision for lost packets, IIRC, so if you have the occasional extra pitch, you may still have service -- it simply retransmits that part of the packet that was lost.

Boats usally don't rock (actually roll) at a mooring/anchor as much as they simply pitch with the approching wind swell. That is, unless you are exposed to swells at your anchorage, in which case you may actually need a big verticle beamwidth to accomodate more intense rolling.

I believe that for 95% of what I need, a high-gain, omni-directional antenna works best. 12 db is great. I'd go even higher (and narrower beamwidth) if I could.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## sailingdog

Bene505 said:


> That's true if your antenna is at a different height that the shore-side antenna. If there are surrounding cliffs, for instance with houses on top.
> 
> That's less true is you are purely concerned about pitching* at anchor. Then extra beamwidth will really help you. I find that our boat doesn't pitch that much usually. (50' boat, 10 foot water depth, 3 miles of fetch, monohull.) But the 30 foot boats around us have pitched up and down 20 degrees from horizontal in a blow. (Remember Mainsails videos of anchorages up there?) That's not the normal conditions at the anchorage, but it is a time when you would want connectivity to see where the storm is going.
> 
> As another thought on this, the TCP/IP protocols have some provision for lost packets, IIRC, so if you have the occasional extra pitch, you may still have service -- it simply retransmits that part of the packet that was lost.


Only for TCP connections, not UDP ones. 



> *Boats usally don't rock (actually roll) at a mooring/anchor as much as they simply pitch with the approching wind swell. That is, unless you are exposed to swells at your anchorage, in which case you may actually need a big verticle beamwidth to accomodate more intense rolling.*
> 
> I believe that for 95% of what I need, a high-gain, omni-directional antenna works best. 12 db is great. I'd go even higher (and narrower beamwidth) if I could.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


This is why I generally recommend a NS2 type device rather than a Bullet with Omni setup for most monohulls.


----------



## DropTop

sailingdog said:


> Only for TCP connections, not UDP ones.


true, but the transmitting radio will retransmit frames that don't get ack'd by the receiving side regardless of what transport protocol is being used (it happens at layer 2, TCP/UDP packets start at layer 3). The number of retransmits varies based on the vendor, but a typical value is 4 retransmits before the frame is dropped.

this means that even UDP packets that are dropped on the wifi link will be retransmitted (at least a few times), just with a little delay.


----------



## Bene505

sailingdog said:


> ...This is why I generally recommend a NS2 type device rather than a Bullet with Omni setup for most monohulls.


Don't multihulls rock more in a swell?

Besides that, is the NS2s omnidirectional? You definitly want omnidirectional, unless you are the type of person that aims your solar stick every couple hours. Or if you want really really really long range on windless days and don't mind periodic aiming.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## richardhula

Bene505 said:


> Besides that, is the NS2s omnidirectional? You definitly want omnidirectional,
> Regards,
> Brad


NS2's have dual polarization 10-11 dB gain antenna with about 55° beam width horizontal & vertical, so probably better than bullet/omni IF pointing roughly in the right direction.

They just don't look right on a boat though


----------



## hardin45lover

Sounds like all of these work better then my crappy SKYMATE and the wont even return mails or calls BEWARE!


----------



## sailingdog

Bene505 said:


> Don't multihulls rock more in a swell?


Generally, no. Unlike monohulls, the extreme beam and initial stability of the multihull generally limits rocking to a fairly small motion. I've been in anchorages where the incoming swell made it very uncomfortable for monohulls, to the point where some would weigh anchor and leave for another anchorage. If the swell is just at the right frequency, you can get a monohull to really roll a lot, if the swell and the boat are at the boat's resonant frequency. 



> Besides that, is the NS2s omnidirectional? You definitly want omnidirectional, unless you are the type of person that aims your solar stick every couple hours. Or if you want really really really long range on windless days and don't mind periodic aiming.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


The fact that the NS2 covers about 60˚ of horizontal angle means that unless the wind or current really shifts, there is not a lot of need to re-point an NS2.


----------



## SailingWebGuy

Very interesting post! If you mix this with skype you could even be making free phone calls.


----------



## richardhula

Yep been doing that for five years


----------



## sailingdog

Technically, calls via SKYPE to real telephone numbers aren't free... only SKYPE to SKYPE calls are free.



SailingWebGuy said:


> Very interesting post! If you mix this with skype you could even be making free phone calls.


----------



## richardhula

sailingdog said:


> Technically, calls via SKYPE to real telephone numbers aren't free... only SKYPE to SKYPE calls are free.


There's nothing technical about it  your right there not, but I think most know what FREE Skype calls are.


----------



## Stillraining

Great thread Guys...I'm lost on most of the stuff your talking about but trying to pick up what i can.

Dog can you post a picture of this NS2 device of yours for comparison purposes?


----------



## SailingWebGuy

sailingdog said:


> Technically, calls via SKYPE to real telephone numbers aren't free... only SKYPE to SKYPE calls are free.


Yeah you're right. I pay $2.99 per month for unlimited SKYPE to phone calls.


----------



## sailingdog

Stillraining said:


> Great thread Guys...I'm lost on most of the stuff your talking about but trying to pick up what i can.
> 
> Dog can you post a picture of this NS2 device of yours for comparison purposes?


Wish granted:


----------



## jwood1

*Bareboat solution?*

Dan

Thanks for all your insight into the NS2 vs the Bullet. I'm doing a bareboat charter in St Martin (monohull) next month and want to get a portable setup that I can plug into my laptop for Wifi access while at anchor. I'm looking at two possible setups, at about the same price:

1. Bullet 2 with a 7 to 8" "rubber duck" omni directional antenna, poe, and a roll of CAT5 cable. This would be easy to pack and I could simply haul it up on a halyard and not worry about directonality. The antennas I am looking at claim 90o vertical, so should not be a problem on a monohul.

2. Nanostation 2 loco, with built-in antenna, poe, and CAT5 cable. This would need to be pointed in the general direction of the signal, so would be difficult to haul up on a halyard.

The question is, which would give a better signal? The omni up the mast, or a more directional NS2 on the rail? Or, is there something better that you would recommend?

Thanks

Jerry


----------



## sailingdog

It depends... how far away are you expecting to be from the access point. Having the NS2 on the rail will limit your range quite a bit. So, I would probably go with the Bullet 2HP, not the regular Bullet. You want the High Power versions. 



jwood1 said:


> Dan
> 
> Thanks for all your insight into the NS2 vs the Bullet. I'm doing a bareboat charter in St Martin (monohull) next month and want to get a portable setup that I can plug into my laptop for Wifi access while at anchor. I'm looking at two possible setups, at about the same price:
> 
> 1. Bullet 2 with a 7 to 8" "rubber duck" omni directional antenna, poe, and a roll of CAT5 cable. This would be easy to pack and I could simply haul it up on a halyard and not worry about directonality. The antennas I am looking at claim 90o vertical, so should not be a problem on a monohul.
> 
> 2. Nanostation 2 loco, with built-in antenna, poe, and CAT5 cable. This would need to be pointed in the general direction of the signal, so would be difficult to haul up on a halyard.
> 
> The question is, which would give a better signal? The omni up the mast, or a more directional NS2 on the rail? Or, is there something better that you would recommend?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Jerry


----------



## richardhula

Almost certainly the Nano would work better given its directional higher gain antenna even at say six feet above deck & assuming its pointing roughly in the right direction. 

The Bullet (2HP or M2HP) would only equal or beat that if it had a higher gain (than rubber duck) omni higher up & with the caveat of reduced vertical beam width.


----------



## jwood1

Good points. The NS2 seems a better solution for portability. Dan, I will be in typical anchorages and I guess no more than a mile or so from access points. I could easily attach the NS2 higher up on a stay or the mast, as high as I can reach. 

The only drawback I see with the NS2 is that the poe that it comes with requires a 110V AC input. I suppose I could buy a different poe that uses a 12V input.


----------



## sailingdog

If you're that close, go with the NS2. Valemont sells a 12VDC POE injector at wlanparts.com that is only $5.



jwood1 said:


> Good points. The NS2 seems a better solution for portability. Dan, I will be in typical anchorages and I guess no more than a mile or so from access points. I could easily attach the NS2 higher up on a stay or the mast, as high as I can reach.
> 
> The only drawback I see with the NS2 is that the poe that it comes with requires a 110V AC input. I suppose I could buy a different poe that uses a 12V input.


----------



## jwood1

sailingdog said:


> If you're that close, go with the NS2. Valemont sells a 12VDC POE injector at wlanparts.com that is only $5.


Perfect! I think I'll go with the NS2. I'll write a report when I return in Dec.

Thanks
Jerry


----------



## jwood1

sailingdog said:


> If you're that close, go with the NS2. Valemont sells a 12VDC POE injector at wlanparts.com that is only $5.


I didn't find one by Valemont, but this one by Tycon looks good, $4.95. What do you think?


----------



## richardhula

Or.... click on image



and save a $


----------



## sailingdog

jwood1 said:


> I didn't find one by Valemont, but this one by Tycon looks good, $4.95. What do you think?


I prefer the ones with the jacks, since any cable damage will render the one you've picked useless. The ones with the jacks have fewer problems typically.


----------



## richardhula

sailingdog said:


> I prefer the ones with the jacks, since any cable damage will render the one you've picked useless. The ones with the jacks have fewer problems typically.


Agreed & you can't easily connect the pigtail type the wrong way around & blow up your laptops adapter.

Its horses for courses though, & remember a dollar is a dollar :laugher


----------



## sailingdog

I've found that the average user is more than able to screw up connecting a POE injector regardless of the safety precautions you take to make it idiot proof.

In the race between man and GOD where man makes something idiot-proof and GOD makes a better idiot, GOD is clearly winning. He doesn't have to replace his idiots, he just upgrades the ones he's already got...



richardhula said:


> Agreed & you can't easily connect the pigtail type the wrong way around & blow up your laptops adapter.
> 
> Its horses for courses though, & remember a dollar is a dollar :laugher


----------



## jwood1

*Another option*

Someone on Cruisers Forum is suggesting the Alpha 1 watt unit as a better option for portability, along with a higher gain antenna. They also pointed out that the NS loco 2 is only 100mw. I realize it uses a USB connection, but a 15' USB cable would allow me to put it up high enough.

So, now I'm trying to compare power and sensitivity between the NSloco 2 and an Alpha with a higher gain antenna. Any thoughts?


----------



## remetau

What kind of distance are people using these at? I can understand seeing a signal from far off, but that doesn't mean you can always get two way communication.

I use a 10db antenna connected to a Linksys router as a repeater, but for my work I use a phone card.


----------



## Bene505

Nice POE injectors. I've been using the wires I stripped out by hand, with a piece of red tape on the + wires. I like this a lot better.

Don't forget a healthy dose of dialectric grease to keep oxidation at bay.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## richardhula

jwood1 said:


> Someone on Cruisers Forum is suggesting the Alpha 1 watt unit as a better option for portability, along with a higher gain antenna. They also pointed out that the NS loco 2 is only 100mw. I realize it uses a USB connection, but a 15' USB cable would allow me to put it up high enough.
> 
> So, now I'm trying to compare power and sensitivity between the NSloco 2 and an Alpha with a higher gain antenna. Any thoughts?


The Alpha AWUS036H 1000mW model seems flavour of the month, although they now offer an 802.11n compatible model AWUS036NH claiming higher power. This latter model hasn't been found to be superior in use as yet though. 6-8ft above deck is claimed as a good height to receive the average AP.

A well known provider of Alpha kits claims a connection to shore-based AP at 4.75 miles! I would think this the exception rather than the rule & would be highly dependent on the setup at the AP end.


----------



## sailingdog

The NS2 is 400 mw, the Bullet 2HP or M2HP is 800 mw. The problem with the Alpha 1 units is the USB device drivers tend to be pretty buggy, far more than the ethernet drivers that are used for the NS2/B2HP/BM2HP. Also, the Alpha can't be plugged into a WiFi router to create a boat area network.

I wouldn't get an Alpha unit. I'd recommend going with a NS2 rather than a NS2 Loco.

Another issue with the Alpha units is the loss due to coax cable length. Most people don't mount the Alpha unit at the mast, so have some length of coax cable to deal with. The losses from the cable can easily cost you enough signal strength to make it less useful than a NS2/Bullet setup.



jwood1 said:


> Someone on Cruisers Forum is suggesting the Alpha 1 watt unit as a better option for portability, along with a higher gain antenna. They also pointed out that the NS loco 2 is only 100mw. I realize it uses a USB connection, but a 15' USB cable would allow me to put it up high enough.
> 
> So, now I'm trying to compare power and sensitivity between the NSloco 2 and an Alpha with a higher gain antenna. Any thoughts?


----------



## sailingdog

There are a lot of variables that determine the range you can get out of these units. Up in rural Vermont, I setup a dual NS2 configuration to give my friend high-speed internet at his office from his home. The link is almost three miles and has been running continuously for about two years. Rain fade is an issue, as is snow accumulating on the antennas.

The longest link I've used NS2 or Bullets for was over 9 miles, using two Bullet 2HPs and 18 dB gain parabolic grid antenna on each end. This was out in New Mexico for a project that couldn't be wired terrestrially. The biggest issue was aligning the two grid antenna.



remetau said:


> What kind of distance are people using these at? I can understand seeing a signal from far off, but that doesn't mean you can always get two way communication.
> 
> I use a 10db antenna connected to a Linksys router as a repeater, but for my work I use a phone card.


----------



## remetau

That sounds like a situation where you controlled both ends of the connection.

What about in a harbor trying to pick up a free wi-fi?


----------



## richardhula

sailingdog said:


> The NS2 is 400 mw, the Bullet 2HP or M2HP is 800 mw. The problem with the Alpha 1 units is the USB device drivers tend to be pretty buggy, far more than the ethernet drivers that are used for the NS2/B2HP/BM2HP. Also, the Alpha can't be plugged into a WiFi router to create a boat area network.
> 
> I wouldn't get an Alpha unit. I'd recommend going with a NS2 rather than a NS2 Loco.
> 
> Another issue with the Alpha units is the loss due to coax cable length. Most people don't mount the Alpha unit at the mast, so have some length of coax cable to deal with. The losses from the cable can easily cost you enough signal strength to make it less useful than a NS2/Bullet setup.


I think your comments about buggy Alpha/USB drivers may be exaggerated given the number of happy bunnies using them. Remember also that Jerry wanted a portable unit so the issue's about WiFi sharing are not really relevant.

For the record you can have a USB connection up to 79 feet with no signal loss using active extenders although I wouldn't suggest for a moment that is a practical proposition. The dominating issue with long USB runs is timing hence the rather specific max connection length.

BTW I chose to use a Bullet/Omni setup for my permanent boat installation as that suited me best, but as I said before - horses for courses


----------



## sailingdog

remetau said:


> That sounds like a situation where you controlled both ends of the connection.
> 
> What about in a harbor trying to pick up a free wi-fi?


Yes, both those cases I did control both sides of the connection. On one boat, we were out about two miles from the wifi access point, and were able to skype and watch youtube videos without them stuttering... using an omnidirectional antenna and a Bullet 2HP. This was done for almost a month and was pretty reliable.


----------



## remetau

sailingdog said:


> Yes, both those cases I did control both sides of the connection. On one boat, we were out about two miles from the wifi access point, and were able to skype and watch youtube videos without them stuttering... using an omnidirectional antenna and a Bullet 2HP. This was done for almost a month and was pretty reliable.


Thanks SD. I may look into a Bullet to use with my omni since I suspect that I may have high loss in my wire (about 22' run).


----------



## jwood1

richardhula said:


> I think your comments about buggy Alpha/USB drivers may be exaggerated given the number of happy bunnies using them. Remember also that Jerry wanted a portable unit so the issue's about WiFi sharing are not really relevant.
> 
> For the record you can have a USB connection up to 79 feet with no signal loss using active extenders although I wouldn't suggest for a moment that is a practical proposition.
> 
> BTW I chose to use a Bullet/Omni setup for my permanent boat installation as that suited me best, but as I said before - horses for courses


Yeah, but all good points nonetheless. Another consideration is that it doesn't seem like the Alfa unit is weatherproof, or am I mistaken?

I also remember reading somewhere that the high current demanded by a device like the Alfa could damage the PC USB port. Is that right?


----------



## sailingdog

A lot of people over look the loss caused by long runs of coax cabling... and don't seem to realize a 25' run of coax can undo most, if not all the gains of using a higher gain antenna at the end of that run. With the NS2 or Bullet type devices, there are no coax losses, since the antenna is almost directly connected to the transceiver.


----------



## sailingdog

jwood1 said:


> Yeah, but all good points nonetheless. Another consideration is that it doesn't seem like the Alfa unit is weatherproof, or am I mistaken?


No, it isn't weather proof...



> I also remember reading somewhere that the high current demanded by a device like the Alfa could damage the PC USB port. Is that right?


Yes, but usually this is only a problem on older computers that don't have high-power USB 2.0 ports.


----------



## richardhula

jwood1 said:


> Yeah, but all good points nonetheless. Another consideration is that it doesn't seem like the Alfa unit is weatherproof, or am I mistaken?
> 
> I also remember reading somewhere that the high current demanded by a device like the Alfa could damage the PC USB port. Is that right?


Rather than answer your questions with secondhand knowledge, check out this supplier of Alpha kits. I've met the guy & he has a good product but it didn't suit me for a permanent boat installation.

Some of his claims about the Bullet are untrue though particularly the bit about not be able to share a paid connection. He would have done better ignoring the competition given that there is no such thing as bad publicity 

As you will see the Alpha is not waterproof per se but you can make it so & save a large sum of money over the kit price. I wouldn't worry about the USB power issue either.


----------



## jwood1

Interesting.

So, which do you think would be better at providing a quality wifi connection at a distance: 
Alfa + 8dBi antenna (with minimal coax connection)
vs
Nanostation 2 aimed correctly.

Assume both are mounted say, boom height. 

The Alfa seems to have more power 1 watt vs 400 mw, but the directionality of the NS2 might moderate this difference, no?


----------



## Bene505

remetau said:


> That sounds like a situation where you controlled both ends of the connection.
> 
> What about in a harbor trying to pick up a free wi-fi?


Some marinas are practically blasting their signal out over the water and would be reachable at a couple miles. This is due to having outside antennas and perhaps directional antennas to cover a large sprawling marina with several antennas.

Houses, on the other hand have their wireless access points/wireless routers inside and this result in signal loss. Those antenna are almost never directional but are rather omni-directional. So they are reachable at a much shorter distance, maybe 1/4 mile.

The third option is subscriber access points. Timewarner Cable and Optimum Online/Cablevision both have coverage in our area. I have Optimum, so there's another "free" (I pay at home) way.

with some creative anchor locating, you should be able to pick up somthing.

Best thing to do is get the highest gain antenna that you can fit (12 db), use a Bullet2HP (1 watt version) that connects right to the antenna (no cable loss) and mount it high up (N connector rivited to the mast). I like the POE injector inside the boat near the base of the mast, so if/when you have to take the mast down it becomes a natural disconnect point for the wires.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## sailingdog

The Bullet 2HP or M2HP are 800 mw, not 1 watt units. 



Bene505 said:


> Best thing to do is get the highest gain antenna that you can fit (12 db), use a Bullet2HP (1 watt version) that connects right to the antenna (no cable loss) and mount it high up (N connector rivited to the mast). I like th ePOE injector inside the boat near the base of the mast, so if/when you have to take the mast down it becomes a natural disconnect point for the wires.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


----------



## richardhula

sailingdog said:


> The Bullet 2HP or M2HP are 800 mw, not 1 watt units.


Now that's just plain picky 

Jumping on the same bandwagon though the +/- in the spec could make a 2HP Tx 30dBm = 1 watt.


----------



## sailingdog

richardhula said:


> Now that's just plain picky
> 
> Jumping on the same bandwagon though the +/- in the spec could make a 2HP Tx 30dBm = 1 watt.


If someone goes looking for a 1 watt Bullet 2hp... they might be looking a long time. It isn't picky, just precise.


----------



## richardhula

jwood1 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> So, which do you think would be better at providing a quality wifi connection at a distance:
> Alfa + 8dBi antenna (with minimal coax connection)
> vs
> Nanostation 2 aimed correctly.
> 
> Assume both are mounted say, boom height.
> 
> The Alfa seems to have more power 1 watt vs 400 mw, but the directionality of the NS2 might moderate this difference, no?


OK 
NS2 Tx 26dBm + gain of its 11db dual polarity antenna's = 37dBm EIRP
Alfa Tx 30dBm + 8dB antenna = 38dBm EIRP

Scratching your bum would make a greater difference in their relative performance 

I would go with the NS2 (not loco) for (marginally) best signal & the Alfa for max portability - the final choice is yours.


----------



## Bene505

I thought I bought a 1 Watt Bullet2HP. Now I'm going to have to look at the box again.

One of these days, I'll have a webcam on the boat, so I can check on it -- can't do that as easily without an omni-directional antenna.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## richardhula

Bene505 said:


> Some marinas are practically blasting their signal out over the water and would be reachable at a couple miles. This is due to having outside antennas and perhaps directional antennas to cove a large sprawling marine with several antennas.
> 
> Houses, on the other hand have their wireless access points/wireless routers inside and this result in signal loss. Those antenna are almost never direction but are rather omni-directional. So they are reachable at a much shorter distance, maybe 1/4 mile.
> 
> The third option is subscriber access points. Timewarner Cable and Optimum Online/Cablevision both have coverage in our area. I have Optimum, so there's another "free" (I pay at home) way.
> 
> with some creative anchor locating, you should be able to pick up somthing.
> 
> Best thing to do is get the highest gain antenna that you can fit (12 db), use a Bullet2HP (1 watt version) that connects right to the antenna (no cable loss) and mount it high up (N connector rivited to the mast). I like th ePOE injector inside the boat near the base of the mast, so if/when you have to take the mast down it becomes a natural disconnect point for the wires.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


Good info Brad. I've been using WiFi on a boat throughout the Caribbean, Bahamas & east coast US for seven years. Its only recently I've got around to having a long range system though.

I think way too much emphasis is put on the numbers & transmission strength of your setup. As its a two way thing, equally or more important is the sensitivity of your receiver & the gain of the antenna. Remember that many AP's you connect to will likely have less transmit power & a lower gain antenna even in marina's.

I've also found that the signal to noise ratio with any AP you are connected to is nothing like as important as the bandwidth of Internet throughput available at the AP's end. The actual "last mile" WiFi link will always have bandwidth way in excess of what's available coming in to the AP upstream, in all but worst case scenario's (i.e. weak 802.11b connection, lots of lost packets)

e.g. I am paying for access to a local AP running 802.11b about 200 yards away & am connected with a -45dBm signal. -50dBm (a weaker signal) is generally accepted as 100% signal strength, so its really blasting in, but the service although reliable is slow.

If I connect to another AP over 1km away using an 802.11g home router (I know 'cos I looked  I get a signal of -88dBm, only 3dB above the noise floor. However I get considerably faster throughput from this under used AP than I do from the local one despite vastly superior signal, accepting the occasional dropout altogether. This sort of comparison bares out time & again.

Obviously with a heavily used AP the available Internet bandwidth is only enjoyed by the strongest connections. In this case power/sensitivity does count else your at the bottom of the list for sending/receiving packets, but at other times it seems not.

To sum up, subjective assessment of throughput is what counts not numbers.


----------



## Bene505

Bene505 said:


> I thought I bought a 1 Watt Bullet2HP. Now I'm going to have to look at the box again.
> 
> One of these days, I'll have a webcam on the boat, so I can check on it -- can't do that as easily without an omni-directional antenna.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


Yes, it's 1 watt (1000mW). At least according to the online sale. I would have noticed if it wasn't 1W after I received it, right?

Anyway, the website says they have 1 watt ones. Bullet | Ubiquiti Networks, Inc.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## Bene505

I just tried to buy one of these. I hit checkout and then had to register on their site.... and THEN it said:

*Sorry, but we have minimum order sum of 200USD or 130EUR. Please add some more products to reach such TOTAL SUM.*

Argh.

Need a Plan B on this one.

Regards,
Brad



richardhula said:


> Or.... click on image
> 
> 
> 
> and save a $


----------



## richardhula

Bene505 said:


> I just tried to buy one of these. I hit checkout and then had to register on their site.... and THEN it said:
> 
> *Sorry, but we have minimum order sum of 200USD or 130EUR. Please add some more products to reach such TOTAL SUM.*
> 
> Argh.
> 
> Need a Plan B on this one.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad[/QUOTE
> 
> Hmm... I bought all my stuff from their UK operation. Due to antenna OOS & me changing my mind, the order was changed several times but I don't think it ever hit that much.
> 
> Any road up as we say in Yorkshire  I'm sure this sort of thing is available at a variety of outlets. Like you I was prepared to strip back the cables but for $4 it just wasn't worth it. In fact I also bought an AC powered 18v POE for testing at home.


----------



## richardhula

Bene505 said:


> IN that case, you may have to power-up the Bullet after powering up the router. When I directly connect the laptop (via wires), I have to power up the Bullet last. THe same thin may be happening with a direct connection to the router. Not sure. It is certainly no big deal though.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


Nope - doesn't matter what order I power things up - as soon as Bullet has association with AP & local WLAN router has booted, I have full wireless Internet connectivity on my laptop. Not just once - every time.

BTW Brad have you got that 4 foot antenna at top of mast yet. Would like to know how well it performs.

On separate note I'm trying to gather facts (not theory) on performance of Bullet M2HP (which can only run in mixed b,g,n mode with present firmware) compared with Bullet 2HP. Specifically a comparison of throughput with each Bullet when connected in same configuration/antenna to same 802.11g AP running in mixed b/g mode, as most do around here.


----------



## Bene505

richardhula said:


> Nope - doesn't matter what order I power things up - as soon as Bullet has association with AP & local WLAN router has booted, I have full wireless Internet connectivity on my laptop. Not just once - every time.
> 
> BTW Brad have you got that 4 foot antenna at top of mast yet. Would like to know how well it performs.


I have data (screenshots) comparing the 9db and the 12db antennas when hoisted aloft.

Last weekend I went up the mast and ran monofilament down the mast. That's for running the CAT5 cable. I was alone and actually feeding the cable down the mast (while pulling the fishing line from below) is a two man job. Oh, I could rig a block at the bottom of the mast to be able to do the whole thing from the top, but I have a friend visiting in a couple weeks and he's already been up there and done that with my wayward spinnaker line.

(There were no wave in the anchorage, and no boat traffic to speak of. While he was up there, I used a flag halyard and sent him up a beer and an opener.)

I plan on cutting one end off my 100' CAT5 cable and keeping the intact factory end at the top of the mast, and feeding the cut end through the mast. It will just fit through an existing hole at the top of the mast. The upper (intact) end I already have wrapped-up in white electrical tape, covering the Bullet2HP completely, all the way up to the antenna connector. I know they are pretty waterproof but I'm looking to improve that capability. And I don't need to see the signal strength lights -- I'm setting it to keep those LEDs turned off anyway.



> On separate note I'm trying to gather facts (not theory) on performance of Bullet M2HP (which can only run in mixed b,g,n mode with present firmware) compared with Bullet 2HP. Specifically a comparison of throughput with each Bullet when connected in same configuration/antenna to same 802.11g AP running in mixed b/g mode, as most do around here.


Looking forward to your results.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## sailingdog

Bene505—

I hope you got the tinned, stranded Cat 5 wire that is made by Belden. Anything else isn't really up to the task.


----------



## Bene505

sailingdog said:


> Bene505-
> 
> I hope you got the tinned, stranded Cat 5 wire that is made by Belden. Anything else isn't really up to the task.


No, I probably got the one that isn't up to the task!

Regards,
Brad


----------



## sailingdog

Well, a lot of Cat 5 is solid wire, which is really bad, since it fatigues really easily and will break fairly quickly if unsupported at any point. I hope you've at least got the stranded stuff, which will just corrode fairly quickly as opposed to breaking and then corroding fairly quickly. 



Bene505 said:


> No, I probably got the one that isn't up to the task!
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


----------



## richardhula

Bene505 said:


> Looking forward to your results.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


Actually was hoping someone here could tell me what they have achieved with Bullet M2HP & say 802.11g AP.

I have seen reported a real TCP throughput of 5Mbps achieved with one connected to an aging 802.11b AP. Given that the theoretical max is 6Mbps after allowing for collision avoidance overheads, this seems very good.


----------



## sailingdog

Richard—

I've got a BM2HP on order...will let you know when I get a chance to test it.


----------



## Bene505

richardhula said:


> Actually was hoping someone here could tell me what they have achieved with Bullet M2HP & say 802.11g AP.
> 
> I have seen reported a real TCP throughput of 5Mbps achieved with one connected to an aging 802.11b AP. Given that the theoretical max is 6Mbps after allowing for collision avoidance overheads, this seems very good.


I consistently hit around 2.4Mbps using the Bullet2HP and a 12db omnidirectional antenna. The access point was about 3/4 mile away. It's really excellent throughput, IMHO. I can't wait to try watching movies using it.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## richardhula

Bene505 said:


> I consistently hit around 2.4Mbps using the Bullet2HP and a 12db omnidirectional antenna. The access point was about 3/4 mile away. It's really excellent throughput, IMHO. I can't wait to try watching movies using it.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


Thanks for that, but was it b or g AP?

Unfortunately latest AirOS firmware doesn't show specifically which mode you are working with, although I have put in a request for this to be included with later versions.

If you look at AP Information (click on option at bottom of MAIN AirOS page) it lists historically the negotiated rates that your connection has achieved against signal level. If > 11M (Mbps) then you likely have g connection (max 54 Mbps).

Edit: Apologies - Bullet 2HP uses different AirOS so its Tx & Rx rate on Main page you need to look at.


----------



## Bene505

richardhula said:


> Thanks for that, but was it b or g AP?
> 
> Unfortunately latest AirOS firmware doesn't show specifically which mode you are working with, although I have put in a request for this to be included with later versions.
> 
> If you look at AP Information (click on option at bottom of MAIN AirOS page) it lists historically the negotiated rates that your connection has achieved against signal level. If > 11M (Mbps) then you likely have g connection (max 54 Mbps).
> 
> Edit: Apologies - Bullet 2HP uses different AirOS so its Tx & Rx rate on Main page you need to look at.


Richard,

Not sure whether it was b or g.

I took some screen shots during the test of the 12db versus 9 db antenna. Here's one of them. Let me know if you need to see other screen shots.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## richardhula

Given 18Mbps Rx rate looks like you had a g connection.

BTW what improvement on average (assuming there was such) did you get with 12dB v 9dB gain antenna?


----------



## ThereBePirates

I am assuming you are connecting to wireless networks in marinas or do you have a global network (mesh network) in the US which you can connect to?

Or maybe you are hacking into other peoples?


----------



## Bene505

ThereBePirates said:


> I am assuming you are connecting to wireless networks in marinas or do you have a global network (mesh network) in the US which you can connect to?
> 
> Or maybe you are hacking into other peoples?


I've thought about this a bit. There are hacking tools to break the encryption used to encrypt/protect wifii, but I don't use them. It just seems wrong. If someone is encrypting their wifi it's a sign that they don't want anyone using it.

In the summer, I have permission from the marina 3/4 miles away. In the winter, our marina includes their controlled access to any customer staying the winter.

I am also an Optimum/Cablevision customer at home which gives me access to their network of WiFi access points -- some of these access points are within reach of my long range wifi. It is also controlled access, they provide me with a password.

I also know several of the businesses/marinas in the area with wifi. If I asked, they wouldn't mind. (Don't need the connection though.) I find that if you ask nicely, that people don't mind. If in doubt, bring a bottle of wine when you ask. I would think if you buy diesel or gas there, they will let you connect -- and probably be amazed that you are the first one to ask.

Other marinas have a pay-for-service system in place. In a pinch I could pony-up and use theirs.

At home I keep the wifi unencrypted in case anyone needs a connection when they are nearby. Perhaps other home owners are doing something similar. Regardless, I'm subscribed to the backbone that is usually used in homes on Long Island (optimum/cablevision). I find that there's little reason to connect to homes, and homes usually have antennas inside, and perhaps on the wrong side of the house.

Right now, the marinas (that I have permission from) provide me all the bandwidth I need. But I wouldn't be opposed to lightly* using someone else's open connection, since that's what I do for others too. (*Lightly meaning not in a way that would affect them.)

Regards,
Brad


----------



## sailingdog

If someone has encrypted their network, hacking it is a felony. Not really a wise idea IMHO. There are usually plenty of open (unencrypted) networks in a given area that hacking an encrypted one makes very little sense.



ThereBePirates said:


> I am assuming you are connecting to wireless networks in marinas or do you have a global network (mesh network) in the US which you can connect to?
> 
> Or maybe you are hacking into other peoples?


----------



## hellosailor

sd, even without encryption, in some states it is a specific count of "theft of services" or other criminal charge simply to USE someone else's wifi signal.

There's a long established convention to name wifi networks with names like "Guests Welcome" or "Free WiFi" to indicate that someone intentionally is allowing access. And, a very similar name (Free wifi network?) that is created by WindowsXP systems on their own under certain circumstances. Apparently popular enough that malware warnings have gone out about it, because folks *think* it is free wifi, while it actually is sometimes a site set up to scan and steal from passing traffic.

Caveat emptor and all that good stuff.


----------



## bacampbe

I'd be very careful using unencrypted wifi, unless you encrypt everything with a VPN, etc. Sidejacking attacks are fairly easy for websites that encrypt the login only, and does everything else in clear text. Google "firesheep" for more info.


----------



## sailingdog

bacampbe said:


> I'd be very careful using unencrypted wifi, unless you encrypt everything with a VPN, etc. Sidejacking attacks are fairly easy for websites that encrypt the login only, and does everything else in clear text. Google "firesheep" for more info.


Encrypted WiFi isn't much better in that respect, since all the people connecting to the same access point or hotspot are effectively unencrypted to anyone else on the network unless they're using a VPN.


----------



## bacampbe

At least with WPA each client uses a different session key to talk to the AP. Clients can't decrypt traffic to and from other clients. Of course, there may be attacks against _that_, but they are likely to be a bit harder than sidejacking.


----------



## billyruffn

BeneBrad,

Now I’ve just spent 3 hours or so reading your excellent post and I’m now convinced that I need one of your new wifi (or, as they say in the French islands, “weefee") techno marvels to boost my Skyping range while in the Carib this winter. 

I think what I’ve learned from all this is that I need to order one of those 1000mm Bullet devices; an all-round, very long 12 bell antenna with female equipment on the bottom end (where it’s susposed to be, no doubt); 50 feet or so of that nice blue wire with square-type plugs on each end (I’ll follow Dog’s advice and try to find some of the tin wire that doesn’t fatigue when bent or corrode when continuously emmersed in salt water); then I’ll need one of those little $5 black boxes that Dog recommends (so I don’t have to hack up the nice blue wire like you did or demonstrate to Dog my capacity to be God’s improved idiot by blowing up my new-to-me PC); and finally, I need some wire to connect the little black box to an under-used circuit on my DC panel. Opps...almost forgot a short piece of the blue wire to go from the black box to the PC. I guess I’ll also need a method of hoisting the all-round 12 bell antenna up off the deck a bit. Will the flag haulyard do? Do I have everything?

Then, when all that’s set up (tell me if this is right -- the 12 bell is plugged to the Bullet thingie which is plugged to black box with the long blue wire which is connected to the PC with the short blue wire, and the little black box has 12V coming into the round hole on the left)? I watched a couple of You Tubes movies in languages no one in these longitudes can understand to figure out how to “plug and play” as they say -- did I get it right? Then, I dig out the 7 page installation guide Richardhula was kind enough to post and try to make his Windows 7 instructions work with XP PC. Miss anything here?

If I’m good thus far, the last thing I need to know is, if this doesn’t work as advertised, who do I get PO’ed at?


----------



## richardhula

billyruffn said:


> If I'm good thus far, the last thing I need to know is, if this doesn't work as advertised, who do I get PO'ed at?


Just yourself 'cos you will have done something wrong 

Seriously though you seem to have the basics. Just one choice - do you go for the Bullet 2HP or newer M2HP (802.11n compliant) model.

It has been suggested that the M model is a tad slower with 802.11b & g connections which are still the most common in the Caribbean. I've found nothing to support this in practice, although there is the theory of greater backward compatibility overheads.

My thoughts on choosing the M model were compatibility with latest WiFi standard plus continued support I will enjoy for the newer device. Other than that the spec's are very similar. Don't look too hard for a 1000mm model though - they are shorter than that  You might have trouble finding a 1000mW model as well. The true spec is 28-29dBm = 600-800mW despite the fact that Ubiquiti round it up to 1000mW in their advertising (maybe on a good day) 

Would also suggest you try something a little more practical than your 12 bell antenna - might be a tad on the large side - try 12dB (deciBell) gain one instead 

Even then don't use it in on full power in the USA - its only certified by FCC for use with 6dB gain antenna 

Maybe I shouldn't mention this but Ubiquity provide a neat little tick (untick?) box called "Obey regulatory rules" for those less concerned with RF pollution


----------



## sailingdog

BR-

I've got pretty *good instructions for XP users on my blog*.

A flag halyard would work nicely, but I'd add a line from the antenna to the cable, so that the wire's weight is supported by the line rather than the RJ45 data jack in the base of the Bullet.

What you'll need:

Bullet 2HP or M2HP
9 dB gain fiberglass antenna with N-Female connector on the base
A long ethernet cable, preferably tinned stranded wire, like Belden 1702A wire.
A 12 VDC POE injector
A short ethernet cable, again preferably tinned stranded wire, like Belden 1702A wire.

If you've got questions, give me a shout.


----------



## billyruffn

Richard/SD, 

Ok, I think I've got. Thanks.


----------



## sailpower

I am pretty much a novice with all this so have (at least) one question. When I connect to someone else’s wifi, is my computer visible to anyone on that same system?

I can think of major security concerns that could result.

Thanks.


----------



## richardhula

sailpower said:


> I am pretty much a novice with all this so have (at least) one question. When I connect to someone else's wifi, is my computer visible to anyone on that same system?
> 
> I can think of major security concerns that could result.
> 
> Thanks.


Generally no unless you want it to be.

Make sure you have no file sharing set up, that you have up to date Internet security software running, & that the network you connect to is set on your PC as Public one (which most security packages will set by default).

For the record having used public WiFi networks throughout the Caribbean & east coast USA for seven years, I've never had any security issues. In the early days of WiFi I often used to see other users on shared networks, but this tends to be the exception nowadays.


----------



## sailingdog

Depends on what you mean by visible and also depends on what firewall software you have setup and how it is configured.



sailpower said:


> I am pretty much a novice with all this so have (at least) one question. When I connect to someone else's wifi, is my computer visible to anyone on that same system?
> 
> I can think of major security concerns that could result.
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## Bene505

Billy(S)Ruffin',

How difficult is it for you to get all the pieces delivered to you down there? Do you need someone to help be an intermediary for shipping?

A flag halyard will work, yes. And Dog's idea of taking the weight of the wire on the flag halyard instead of the connector is a really good one.

I'd go with a longer wire than 50', if you are planning to work down in the salon and routing the wire under your hard dodger. 75' would be better, I'd think.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## sailpower

Mostly concerned about online banking.


----------



## sailingdog

sailpower said:


> Mostly concerned about online banking.


The better banking sites are SSL-encrypted, so that your passwords and banking info are protected. However, if you're not using a good firewall, they can often hack your computer and then steal the information from the machine directly... When using an online site for financial transactions, including online shopping, look for the little padlock icon that tells you the site is encrypted and check the certificate if it is a new site for you. The website's URL will also generally have a https: prefix to indicate that it is secure.


----------



## Bene505

I realized that I didn't link to the antenna test from this thread. Here is the link to it.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electronics/69566-long-range-wifi-antenna-tests.html

Regards,
Brad


----------



## sailpower

Belated thank you for all the info!


----------



## ffiill

I am intrigued-this does not appear to have escaped from the Americas-whilst there appear to be resellers in UK I have never come across it before-am I right in assuming its an outside amplified wireless dongle capable of acessing weaker wifi signals?
Over here in UK I have just started using Fon.com-clever in that my service provider is one of its partners which means in exchange for allowing some public useage of my landline wireless broadband I can use others which means even here in quite remote communities I can get free wifi connections wherever there is a small community.


----------



## richardhula

ffiill said:


> I am intrigued-this does not appear to have escaped from the Americas-whilst there appear to be resellers in UK I have never come across it before-am I right in assuming its an outside amplified wireless dongle capable of acessing weaker wifi signals?
> Over here in UK I have just started using Fon.com-clever in that my service provider is one of its partners which means in exchange for allowing some public useage of my landline wireless broadband I can use others which means even here in quite remote communities I can get free wifi connections wherever there is a small community.


No if you are referring to the Ubiquiti Bullet, its not a dongle - check out picture at start of this thread. It is in fact a Wireless/LAN bridge used mainly by WISP's (wireless internet service providers).

Because of its remote powering capability, high Tx power & Rx sensitivity, as well as high level of configureability, its ideal to provide long range WiFi/Internet access on a boat, with a LAN cable feed direct to your PC or via a local WLAN network for private re-distribution within your boat.

Given its mainly professional use there is little documentation with the device itself although plenty of support is available from Wiki as well as from the Ubiquiti forum & not forgetting this thread of course.

Although Ubiquiti offer other products, the Bullet, given its shape mounts directly to the base of an antenna with popular N type screw connector thus supporting it & providing zero cable loss which is particularly important at microwave frequencies.

If you haven't discovered them already check out WiFi-Stock. Its the UK site of a US company that supplied my M2HP Bullet.


----------



## ffiill

Hi-thanks-just been on a tight learning curve on this over last hour or so.Looks like a really good idea which does not seem to have taken off yet in UK-probably because bulk of those who sail are based in south of England where G3/iphones etc is order of the day.
Already checked out UK site who sadly insist on a minimum spend of £50-I was just after basic model-no extras.
However came up with Greek distributor who are far more laid back in their approach.
Does it need plugging right next to aerial?-assume signal loss in coax.down mast causes a problem?


----------



## richardhula

Yes I was going to mention it was a supply & demand situation that is not so apparent in Europe.

In the Caribbean there are many AP's (access points) without security who's providers generally don't mind you connecting to them. Its also expected that most marina's provide some sort of wireless Internet access. I guess the latter is no different in the UK, but have not sailed there for ten years.

WiFi-Stock in the UK supplied all my equipment but as well as Bullet you will also need antenna (aerial) & POE (power injector) which should take you well over £50.

Let us know if you require any more help.

BTW the cable from the Bullet is a LAN Cat 5e (twisted pair) cable just carrying TCP/IP data like the cable that connected your PC to router before wireless, & can be up to 300 feet long with no loss of data. It is not a coaxial one & carries no RF - all the radio stuff happens at the Bullet/Antenna.

Its a matter of preference but I have my Bullet/Antenna mounted on the pushpit about 7 feet above deck - see post #14 (page 2) on this thread. 13 metres of LAN cable feed through the deck & a hidden route to the chart table where I have located the POE adapter to feed power from DC power sockets I have available on control panel. I can then use further short LAN cable direct to my laptop or feed a WiFi router within my boat for wireless access.

This means my installation is permanent, no hoisting up & down mast with attendant wear & tear. No worries about using tall antenna's at top of mast & easy maintenance if necessary. Using the boats 12 volt system I don't have to worry about volt drop over the longer length of cable either, although I'm told the Bullet works at full power down to 10.5 volts at the device end of the LAN cable.


----------



## billyruffn

Bene505 said:


> Billy(S)Ruffin',
> 
> How difficult is it for you to get all the pieces delivered to you down there? Do you need someone to help be an intermediary for shipping?


Brad, thanks for the offer, but I'm still in the northland. I'll order the stuff and take it with me when I go south in December.
Scott


----------



## ffiill

Wifi stock certainly do offer best deal on on all the bits now I have familiarised myself with the system and checked out suppliers across Europe and US.
Great thing here in UK is Fon which certainly covers all of Europe and UK-its claim to be worldwide is a bit questionable.
Fon allows you free access with some limits to other users home based wifi broadband in exchange for giving up some of your own useage. Result is that even in remote areas where other systems such as mobile broadband dont work you get access.


----------



## Bene505

Yesterday I anchored out and managed to "work from home" using my setup. 

Didn't do any testing on the height above the deck though. I had work to do.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## capitalistnyc

Check into a company called Clear/Clearwire. It is not a marine device but it is an internet and phone service provider with a plug and play device that works at home or boat. Home phone rings miles off shore while pumping wireless throughout your boat (max 5 laptops). I have streamed youtube 10 miles off LI, then surfed the web on the freeway home. Great service for sailors. 

They just launched Nov 1 in NYC, Has anyone used this yet?


----------



## hellosailor

Clearwire is partnered with Sprint to deploy "WiMax".

You can think of this as WiFi on steroids, aka "Metropolitan area Wifi". Or as just another cellular broadband data service, same thing either way. How fast the deployment goes, and whether the companies stay in business, is anyone's guess. (Sprint is using this as part of a "Hail Mary Pass" trying to gain market share, they're still losing a lot of cellular business.)


----------



## capitalistnyc

Clear has partnered with sprint only in leasing 4g network capabilities in exchange for 3g coverage in markets Clear has not reached, allowing them to be nationwide. They have been in business for years and founded by the founder of nextel which sold for 10+ billion I think. 

Regardless, I could care less what their background is, who their partners are, or if they will be around in a few years. My home phone rings on the boat and my laptop is connected in the areas i sail. If you sail beyond 10 miles from the us this is not a solution for you. Its less than $50/month with no contract. Works for me. 

Has anyone else used this service? I think they launched the west coast years ago.


----------



## Bene505

I have Broadband wireless. Posting with it now. Verizon with a 3g card.

Haven't tested how far offshore it works, but LI sound would work. Anywhere there's cellular coverage will work. I use it on the train to/from work and other places, so not planning on cancelling yet, even though I have the long distance wifi setup. (I say "yet" because my Driod does much of what I want to do on the laptop.)

Regards,
Brad


----------



## richardhula

capitalistnyc said:


> Check into a company called Clear/Clearwire. It is not a marine device but it is an internet and phone service provider with a plug and play device that works at home or boat. Home phone rings miles off shore while pumping wireless throughout your boat (max 5 laptops). I have streamed youtube 10 miles off LI, then surfed the web on the freeway home. Great service for sailors.
> 
> They just launched Nov 1 in NYC, Has anyone used this yet?


I believe they use WiMax, a not yet widely adopted wireless technology working to the 802.16m protocol.

Like the 802.11n protocol used in the latest implementation of WiFi, it uses a table of different modulation/coding to ramp up/down the available speed as signal varies. MIMO (multiple input/output) is also supported by both protocols utilising two or more antenna's to provide multiple signal paths in order to increase bandwidth.

I have hired & used WiMax hardware in Dutch Saint Martin. Pre-configured, it provided plug'n play Internet LAN connection to my laptop & worked well over considerably greater range than conventional WiFi despite the device with small integral antenna being inside my boat. Although bandwidth/throughput was modest, it was very consistent at my remote anchored location. Given the large number of mega-yachts there, conventional WiFi channels are totally oversubscribed hence the reason a local provider offered this alternative.

I was told as well as greater range it will work under near line of sight conditions unlike WiFi, & I have no reason to doubt this. To quote a WISP:
"5GHz goes through air.
2.4GHz goes through one tree.
900MHz goes through two trees.
Chainsaws go through 3+ trees" :laugher

I think at the moment 40Mbps is achievable although the standard allows for much higher so it may be the future.


----------



## LITTLESHIPS

Wanting to spend time away from the office with my family on our ketch but really need to be on line for business... are these sufficiently stable and efficient to give good comms...( given there are wifi signals in the area) or is it best just to go with a sat unit and be done with it? As I understand you can just log on the sat unit, download all emails and then switch off....answer in your own time, log on and then uplink replies?


----------



## richardhula

LITTLESHIPS said:


> Wanting to spend time away from the office with my family on our ketch but really need to be on line for business... are these sufficiently stable and efficient to give good comms...( given there are wifi signals in the area) or is it best just to go with a sat unit and be done with it? As I understand you can just log on the sat unit, download all emails and then switch off....answer in your own time, log on and then uplink replies?


Like comparing chalk with cheese 

WiFi Internet connectivity will generally depend on the throughput available from the Access Point you connect to. This in turn will depend on bandwidth of backhaul feeding it, number of people using it, protocol being used & signal strength. Although obviously dependent on location, a long range system will generally give you a choice though.

Internet connectivity via Satellite with anything but the most expensive systems will probably be good enough for emails & maybe occasional web browsing at great expense. If your business requires regular access to the web & can support annual costs amounting to thousands of dollars (not to mention enormous equipment outlay) then it may be your ideal solution otherwise forget it.


----------



## sailpower

How about using Wifi at home? I live less than a mile (line of sight) from two major hotels that are hotspots. I am on the third floor of a six story building.

My Dell All in One desktop does not detect them but does detect some weaker unlocked networks.

Would it make sense to figure out how to receive the hotel hotspots and save the price of cable? Would it be ethical and/or safe to do so?

Thanks


----------



## ffiill

If its free wifi its free wifi-would imagine the bullet2 amplified bridge which has a theoretical range of 40 kilometers should have no problem picking up and transmitting to these wifi hotspots.


----------



## Bene505

sailpower said:


> How about using Wifi at home? I live less than a mile (line of sight) from two major hotels that are hotspots. I am on the third floor of a six story building.
> 
> My Dell All in One desktop does not detect them but does detect some weaker unlocked networks.
> 
> Would it make sense to figure out how to receive the hotel hotspots and save the price of cable? Would it be ethical and/or safe to do so?
> 
> Thanks


If you are asking the question, then you are thinking correctly, IMHO.

Go and ask the hotel if you can use their wifi on a long term basis. Look for a friendly face that works for the hotel. You may get a "yes" like I did when I asked the marina nearest us. They even told me the encryption key/word, back when they had it secured.

If it is a library or something that your tax dollars pay for, you probably don't have to ask, since you are paying for it.

I use "incidental use" as one measure. If I'm logging in a to check email, that's one thing. If I'm watching netflicks every night, that's another thing altogether. (I still pay for internet at home, even though I'm pretty sure neighbors would let me use theirs.)

Regards,
Brad


----------



## hellosailor

Sailpower, if you have to ask you already know the answer.
"Would it make sense to figure out how to receive the hotel hotspots and save the price of cable? Would it be ethical and/or safe to do so?"
Not ethical for most of us, although your ethics might allow it. You don't mind if I sleep on your boat tonight, along with a couple of my friends, since I can get free access to it and you're not using it, right?
Safe? Well, unless you're in one of the states where mooching WiFi is specifically defined as "theft of services" and can get you prosecuted...itmight be safe, if your traffic is all encrypted and you don't have any risk of identity theft or the like.

Oh, guys, hey, he left beer and rum in the galley for us too!


----------



## sailpower

hellosailor said:


> Sailpower, if you have to ask you already know the answer.
> "Would it make sense to figure out how to receive the hotel hotspots and save the price of cable? Would it be ethical and/or safe to do so?"
> Not ethical for most of us, although your ethics might allow it. You don't mind if I sleep on your boat tonight, along with a couple of my friends, since I can get free access to it and you're not using it, right?
> Safe? Well, unless you're in one of the states where mooching WiFi is specifically defined as "theft of services" and can get you prosecuted...itmight be safe, if your traffic is all encrypted and you don't have any risk of identity theft or the like.
> 
> Oh, guys, hey, he left beer and rum in the galley for us too!


I don't know much about wifi which is why I asked the question. I'm not looking to cheat anyone.

So, question, how is receiving free service offshore different than receiving the same signal on land?


----------



## hellosailor

"So, question, how is receiving free service offshore different than receiving the same signal on land?"
If someone is PROVIDING free service to you, that's fine. If you're simply plugging in and using it, that's no different onshore, offshore, inshore. You're plugging into a utility they have paid for, and you're consuming it without their permission.
That's theft of services in most places. The only question is, whether the providers wants to share it, or not. If the router's name isn't something like "Please enjoy sharing my wifi service"...you just don't know.


----------



## Bene505

I generally find that if you ask them, they let you use it. Haven't had anyone say "no" yet (knocking on wood now).

I just looked at my cable bill at home. It's $45 each month for internet. Yes, I definitely have the means to grab it from someone else's open network, but I'm going to keep paying. Seems wrong otherwise.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## sailpower

Bene505 said:


> I generally find that if you ask them, they let you use it. Haven't had anyone say "no" yet (knocking on wood now).
> 
> I just looked at my cable bill at home. It's $45 each month for internet. Yes, I definitely have the means to grab it from someone else's open network, but I'm going to keep paying. Seems wrong otherwise.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


Thanks for your reasonable responses. I think I have the big picture and I agree with your conclusion.


----------



## billyruffn

*It Doesn"t Work.....*

....so who do I blame?    

I bought the bullet and the 9 dB antenna, the blue wire with network clips, and the injector. I dug out my 12V power supply and hooked it all up. I tried the PC set up the way Bene described in the OP and when that didn't work, I went to SailingDog's website and tried the Easy Net Switch method.

I got the green power light on the bullet immediately, and eventually the data light and, finally, after two days of trying I figured out exactly which things to click on in Easy Net Switch (it's different from the version on SD's blog), and then, voila, I could finally "see" my wifi in my wife's office from my new bullet/antenna on the dining room table.

BUT, and this is a BIG BUT -- when I try to get to the internet I get 


<TD id=mainTitleAlign vAlign=center width=* align=left>

[/TD]








 

 *What you can try:*

*
Diagnose Connection Problems 
*

<TD id=mainTitleAlign vAlign=center width=* align=left>
*Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage*


[/TD]When I'm finished working my way through the "diagnose" routine, it tells me to contact my Network Administrator.

So, Network Administrator, where are you?

The bottom line is that the gear is working -- it will see all the wifi hotspots in my neighborhood. When I select my home network (the one in my wife's office), I get the signal strength, etc. on the Bullet screen on the PC.

So what's next, guys? If the new gear can see the wifi router, why can't it communicate with it and get me to the internet?

PS -- I tried sending SD a PM, but I guess he either doesn't look in his box, or he doesn't have me as one of his "friends"  


<TD id=mainTitleAlign vAlign=center width=* align=left>

[/TD]


----------



## Bene505

Scott,

I emailed [email protected]. they opened a trouble ticket. I also registered for their forum (same look and feel as this forum). When I get my registration confirmed I'll post it on their forum too.

In the meantime, take a look at this setup guide. (Or is it what you were using already?). It is located here.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## Bene505

Scott,

I just heard back from them (10 or 15 minutes later). Here's the text:



> Hello Brad,
> 
> Did he follow the beginners setup guide for his configurations? What IP address is his computer receiving? It would help to see screen shots of his configurations.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Kevin Perry
> Tech Support
> Ubiquiti Networks
> Support Line: (408) 942-1153


If you want, I'll give them your phone numbers so they can call you. (Or you can call Kevin at that number.) In the meantime, can you post some of the screenshots from the setup? I think you are almost there.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## billyruffn

Hey Bene!!!! 

I was about to ask you how to post a screen shot, but figured I wouldn't embarrass myself before attempting one more time to read the directions carefully and follow them step by step. One of the problems was the screens on the guide you posted above and those I was seeing were not the same, but I figure that was a version issue. Anyhooo....

IT WORKS NOW!! I think it was the WLAN settings on the third page (Advanced?) I'll mess around with it for a while....to see if I can screw it up.  

Happiness is a hot new radio rig!!

Thanks for you help,

Scott


----------



## Bene505

Nice going Scott! Now can you stop by here and set the clock on the DVD player? 

By the way, if you are planning to use dialectric grease, use it very sparingly on the connector/jack. They had a post on their forum about that. Probably best to not use any at all. I had problems with my first Bullet and I used dialectric grease. Maybe just a coincidence, but the springiness went out of the 8 little wires inside the jack. It got so I was wiggling things in behind those tiny little wires to get them to contact the cable's plug.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## billyruffn

Bene505 said:


> By the way, if you are planning to use dialectric grease, use it very sparingly on the connector/jack. .......
> .....Maybe just a coincidence, but the springiness went out of the 8 little wires inside the jack. It got so I was wiggling things in behind those tiny little wires to get them to contact the cable's plug.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


I'll skip the grease. As for the wires, I'm sure that's why SailingDog said to use the fancy Belden wire. I tried to get that at the DIY Electronics store but they only had it in 1000 ft rolls. Didn't need quite that much, but if 19 other guys want to sign up for 50 ft each, I'll go back and get the good stuff.

It's probably cheaper just to buy some spare blue cables.


----------



## hellosailor

"I'll skip the grease."
Trust me on this, don't skip the grease. Telco style connectors are supposed to be corrosion-proof gold plated contacts, yeah sure, but these days everyone cheats and tries to use the thinest possible flashing not even real plating, and you WILL get corrosion on those gold contacts in a salt atmosphere. The silicon grease is the best--and cheapest--protection you can get, it also ensures condensation won't be a problem in there.
I've seen it, and seen measurements (speed degradation and noise increase) because of it.
That's also why some marine instrument makers have been supplying it standard with their instruments--it works.
About $6/1oz from a chandlery, half that price from an auto supply store as "ignition point grease" or "silicon dielectric grease" and for the same $6 you get about 6 ounces of it as "silicon high temperature brake grease", all apparently equally good for the purpose.


----------



## Bene505

hellosailor said:


> "I'll skip the grease."
> Trust me on this, don't skip the grease. Telco style connectors are supposed to be corrosion-proof gold plated contacts, yeah sure, but these days everyone cheats and tries to use the thinest possible flashing not even real plating, and you WILL get corrosion on those gold contacts in a salt atmosphere. The silicon grease is the best--and cheapest--protection you can get, it also ensures condensation won't be a problem in there.
> I've seen it, and seen measurements (speed degradation and noise increase) because of it.
> That's also why some marine instrument makers have been supplying it standard with their instruments--it works.
> About $6/1oz from a chandlery, half that price from an auto supply store as "ignition point grease" or "silicon dielectric grease" and for the same $6 you get about 6 ounces of it as "silicon high temperature brake grease", all apparently equally good for the purpose.


Just the tiniest amount then, enough to cover the Bullet's 8 rigid wires that stand like a comb inside the plug, not down (up?) into where the wires attach. (Based on very limited, single experience that may have been completely due to something else altogether.)

Regards,
Brad


----------



## ffiill

Bullet2 claims a range of over 50kilometers?I can understand how it can transmit at this range but to receive surely the signal has to be coming from a similar long range wifi transmitter capable of transmitting up to 50 k plus?
If this is the case what benefit to you get from the high power version if in reality you are going to be using it either inshore or in a marina or similar?
This is bearing in mind that the high power version costs twice that of the origional standard version.
As to using someones wifi conection surely if it is not for public use it will be password protected?Macdonalds here in UK offers free wifi whether you are sat in the restaurant or in your car.Here in the UK if its open its free,otherwise such as our local University access is password protected.
Very suprised to hear that there are parts of US that leglislate protecting ownership of the airwaves. 
If you do not lock your car you can expect someone to drive off in it!


----------



## richardhula

ffiill said:


> Bullet2 claims a range of over 50kilometers?I can understand how it can transmit at this range but to receive surely the signal has to be coming from a similar long range wifi transmitter capable of transmitting up to 50 k plus?


basically yes - a wireless hook-up is a two way thing, but given enough gain from maybe directional antenna's at each end of the link these sort of distances are achievable, but would only be used in a fixed point to point link. The reality of using a Bullet with omni-antenna to connect to WiFi network means you will be looking at potential Access Points (AP's) within about a mile on average.



> If this is the case what benefit to you get from the high power version if in reality you are going to be using it either inshore or in a marina or similar?


you are just bucking the odds in your favour, but the extra 9dBm (8x Tx power) of the Bullet 2HP or M2HP is going to make a substantial difference to Internet connectivity with those weak AP's you try to connect to.



> This is bearing in mind that the high power version costs twice that of the original standard version.


I think most folk take the view that its not worth bothering with the lower power Bullet 2 no matter how much cheaper it is. I know the latest Bullet M2HP (802.11n compatible) is available at same price as legacy Bullet 2HP. In fact some distributors are charging more for legacy products now due to higher turnover of latest M series.



> As to using someones wifi conection surely if it is not for public use it will be password protected?Macdonalds here in UK offers free wifi whether you are sat in the restaurant or in your car.Here in the UK if its open its free,otherwise such as our local University access is password protected.
> Very suprised to hear that there are parts of US that leglislate protecting ownership of the airwaves.


Many AP's in the Caribbean are still open including marina's. I have option of five open networks within range in southern Antigua. If the provider of a "free" network uses security (as they should) you can usually obtain the key by asking so its not a problem there.



> If you do not lock your car you can expect someone to drive off in it!


Err yes  - but does that make it legal??


----------



## sailingdog

I've setup remote links using WiFi gear of over 9 miles. In some cases we were using 18 dB gain parabolic grid antenna to create the link, but it isn't that difficult to do.


----------



## ffiill

Thanks for those comments re. range


----------



## sailingdog

ffiill said:


> Thanks for those comments re. range


De nada. I'd point out that an 18 dB gain parabolic grid antenna has a very narrow area of coverage, and is totally useless on a moving object like a boat, though we did use them for a wardriving study we did in the DC metro area about ten years back.


----------



## mlahrkamp

*Wi-Fi on a boat*

I've just finished reading through this thread and wanted to clarify a few things. Our company, Bitstorm (bitstorm.com), has installed marina wi-fi. We've installed and/or sold several hundred Bullet2HPs. Here are some things we've learned:

1) Dielectric grease
Put a thin coat on the ethernet connection of the device. Not too much as it may cause a pin to float. If this happens, remove the excess grease and plug in/out a few times to get the dielectric out of the way of the contacts. Do not go without as corrosion WILL happen, especially on the power carrying pins which will start to blacken.

2) Cat5e cable
There is no need to use stranded wire. Cat5e is 24awg and pretty small. The insulation around the conductors is relatively stiff and thick. There won't be any issue regarding continued flexing causing breakage except in the poorest of installations and I would doubt that stranded cable will make any difference there either. Stranded is much more expensive. Regarding type, DO NOT use the indoor blue stuff that one finds everywhere. In an outdoor environment, it won't last with the jacket cracking and degenerating. Use outdoor rated, PVC jacketed, UV protected cable. Gel filled is just troublesome and messy and not worth the cost unless you're burying it.

3) Hoisting up a halyard
This is a great way to get more range or to clear obstructions. Ensure that you DO NOT allow the weight of the cable to be supported by the connector. Use a down haul line to retrieve (never the cable) and to prevent swinging when there's a breeze.

4) Fresnel zone
The Fresnel zone is the area above and below the direct line of sight between the hotspot and your antenna. Any obstruction in the fresnel zone will cause the signal to depolarize (start to spin or rotate). Think of a pine needle as representing the radio wave - as the top or bottom hits something, it causes the needle to tumble. If it reaches the far antenna in the wrong polarization, it's considered noise and rejected. Often, even when range is not a factor, just putting an antenna higher gets it clear of obstruction. Fresnel effect is often evident when you have 5 bars and throughput is abysmal.

5) Water
The 2.4ghz band is the same band used by microwave ovens, but significantly less powerful. Food gets cooked by the moisture absorbing the energy, converting it to heat and transferring it to the food. That's why the plate may not be hot, but the food on it is. A low mounted antenna will have its fresnel zone touching the water, which will absorb the signal - not reflect it. Going higher gets the fresnel zone out of the water.

6) Bullet2HP
From our own tests, these devices put out usually close to 30dBm (1000mW). However, some only do 29dBm (800mW). The Ubiquiti web site (ubnt.com) states 1000mW. However, when looking at the specs, this is only when using B mode. Getting a connection using G mode at 54mbps will only see 23dBm (200mW). That's a significant power difference.

7) BulletM2
Unlike the Bullet2HPs, these devices come in one flavour: 600mW. Again connecting at higher speed will also experience a reduction in power used. Looking at the spec sheet, it can easily be compared that the M2 is somewhat less capable than the Bullet2HP in B/G mode operation.

8) b/g/n
The speed that you ultimately get for web pages at will depend on what the service level that the hotspot connected to has. We've seldom come across any that are more than 4mbps. Wireless B mode is good for up to 11mbps - more than the hotspot's ISP connection to the internet will be. There's seldom any reason or need to connect using a higher speed. It isn't gonna get onto the internet any faster. Going with N mode speed is simply not useful. Consider also that higher data rates pack more bits into the same time slice as a lower speed does. For example, G mode 54mbps packs about 5 times the data into the same time space as B mode 11mbps. A lower data rate is less prone to data errors due to the longer time each bit is made available for detection at the receiver.

9) Sensitivity
Antenna gain is great for transmission, but Wi-Fi is two way radio. You need to be able to receive just as well as you transmit. Putting on a bigger gain antenna will increase your transmit distance but does nothing for your ability to receive better - that's up to the sensitivity of the radio device. For the Bullet2HP this is an excellent -97dBm when using B mode and drops to a still useful -74dBm sensitivity using G mode at 54mbps. More on this in a bit.

10) Range vs Power
Every 3db increase represents a doubling of power. However, it takes a 6db increase to double the range. So, to get twice the distance, you need to increase the power by a factor of 4.

11) How gain works in an antenna
Antenna are passive - they do not have any amplifiers built into them. They get their rating by the way they shape the signal being transmitted. Think of a bare light bulb with light going in all direction. What goes out the top and bottom is really unusable, since we need it to go horizontally. We add mirrors on the top and bottom to reflect the light sideways. Depending on the shape of the mirror, we can direct a small amount of light a long way (think flashlight). A small bare 3-6V flashlight bulb on its own can be looked at directly with no ill effect. Put the flashlight's mirror behind it and you can get temporarily blinded looking into it. That's retina overload. Antennas and hotspots are the same.

12) Higher gain antennas
FCC part 15.247 regulations dictate that 36dBm is the max that a Wi-Fi radio device and antenna combination can legally put out (point-to-multipoint - a hotspot). That would be a full power Bullet2HP and a 6dbi gain antenna. Adding more antenna gain requires you to turn down the radio's transmit power proportionally. So, a 12dbi antenna requires you to turn the power down to 24dBm (250mW) on the radio. Not doing so results in you driving 30dBm + 12 dBi = 42dBm (or 16Watts!). Why turn it down? Because when you overdrive the band, you affect everyone else in the nearby area. Too much input signal causes the hotspot to be overdriven resulting in NO communication. Consider the following: a 5W handheld VHF can hear a 25W VHF but may not be able to communicate back to it due to its distance. If we put a booster on it to bring it to 25W, now both are on the same level. If we were to boost it up to say 100W, and at greater distances, now the 25W VHF can hear the 100W VHF but it now cannot communicate back due to its now lower relative power. Since almost all VHFs are 25W, putting out 100W does not gain anything since you are still only able to receive signals at the distance of 25W VHFs. Indeed the greater distance transmitted will walk over other radio transmissions that would not normally be within range. Wi-Fi is the same. Put a 12dbi antenna on a full power Bullet2HP at a distance of a few hundred yards from a hotspot and I can guarantee you that you will overdrive the hotspot rendering it mostly unusable. Sure, you'll have 5 bars but you will find that you get a better connection from a more distant station. And you've polluted the band for everyone in your area. Commercially equipped hotspots (i.e. professionally installed/run marinas) usually honour the 36dBm regulation. If for no other reason than that's what's sold commercially. For example, Ubiquiti's NanoStation2 putting out 26dBm into a built-in 10dBi antenna = 36dBm, the legal limit. Lastly, the size of a 12-15dBi antenna can be measured in many feet making it a difficult size to manage and can introduce stresses due to windage.

13) Typical distance from hotspot
In the real world, you'll likely be less than 1 mile from a hotspot. The use of a 12dBi antenna is much too flat and can often result in not connecting to the closest available access point (AP) due to beam angle being below or above the hotspot when in close. Your best all round antenna will be a 6dBi with an 8.5-9dBi as max. Both are easily capable of doing 3-5+ miles based on having a suitably capable hotspot and clear line of sight.

14) How much power should I use
Unfortuantely, without specialized equipment, the average person is not able to tell when they're driving too much power out of their antenna for the area that they are in or for hotspot distance. The best rule of thumb is to stay within the 36dBm limit so that the local band is not polluted by overdriven transmissions. The other people in the marina or at anchor will appreciate it.

15) Penalties
Seizure of equipment (entire boat?) is possible if law enforcement gets involved. Will you be detected? A marina that all of a sudden finds its Wi-Fi performance degraded will investigate when the issue persists. They may discover they're being overdriven. For an overnight stay, you likely won't get detected since their problem will be corrected when you leave. If you're staying there for a longer time, they may have access to and use a highly directional antenna/instrument and sweep the area to find the offender. Bottom line is that you CAN be detected as the source of a problem.

16) Hotspot security
As you will discover, not all unsecured hotspots are free. Some ask for a credit card to allow access. And not all secure hotspots are private or charge for access. Many simply are looking to boost their business's patronage. Go buy a beer at the bar or a muffin at the cafe. You'll then have the access key to take back to the boat.

Sorry for the long post.

Mike


----------



## bacampbe

Thanks, Mike, that was an extremely useful post.

Since you mentioned security, I want to qualify a statement I made earlier about using WPA2 PSK to protect against side jacking (i.e. Firesheeep) attacks. I mentioned that each session negotiates a distinct session key, so that everyone can't decrypt everyone elses traffic. Upon further research, it turns out there is a relatively simple attack on this. Anyone with the master key can snoop on the handshake of a new session, and determine the resulting session key. Furthermore, it's relatively easy for someone to force a reset so that people that were already logged in have to repeat the handshake.

The upside is, the attacker has to know the master key to start out with, so the pool of potential attackers is much more limited than for an open network. So while it's far from perfect, it's still a significant improvement over no protection at all.

WPA2 with 802.1X (aka WPA2 enterprise) would be far better, as each user gets his own master key. But it think it highly unlikely that a typical marina will be willing to use that, at least for transient users, as they aren't going to want to deal with setting up accounts for each user.


----------



## richardhula

mlahrkamp said:


> 9) Sensitivity
> Antenna gain is great for transmission, but Wi-Fi is two way radio. You need to be able to receive just as well as you transmit. Putting on a bigger gain antenna will increase your transmit distance but does nothing for your ability to receive better - that's up to the sensitivity of the radio device.
> Mike


Great post but have to disagree with above statement in reference to received signal & antenna gain, which benefits both transmission & reception.


----------



## mlahrkamp

richardhula said:


> Great post but have to disagree with above statement in reference to received signal & antenna gain, which benefits both transmission & reception.


I should have indicated that a directional antenna (such as a dish) will benefit on the receive side since additional signal is reflected inward by the dish. An omni is only able to receive the signals that hit it directly, and does not pull in any surrounding signal - there is no focusing reflector around it. You could make one with aluminum foil that's shaped right, but then you'd have a directional antenna. From our tests, we found no beneficial difference between using different gain antennas during receive and everything was directly related to receiver sensitivity characteristics.

If you're looking for best reception, use B mode, where the sensitivity is the greatest, at least when using Bullet2HPs.

Mike


----------



## ffiill

Some very useful practical info. there-thanks


----------



## SEMIJim

mlahrkamp said:


> I should have indicated that a directional antenna (such as a dish) will benefit on the receive side since additional signal is reflected inward by the dish. An omni is only able to receive the signals that hit it directly, and does not pull in any surrounding signal - there is no focusing reflector around it.


Doesn't matter. Gain is gain _regardless_ of how the antenna design achieves it, and regardless of whether the antenna is unidirectional or omni-directional.

Good information on the Fresnel zone and the absorption of microwave energy by water. Sailors should note that latter applies to a wet deck or core, as well. Something to keep in mind when attempting to use the local WiFi system from inside the boat's cabin.

Jim


----------



## mlahrkamp

SEMIJim said:


> Doesn't matter. Gain is gain _regardless_ of how the antenna design achieves it, and regardless of whether the antenna is unidirectional or omni-directional.


With all due respect, I must disagree. Cut open an omni and look inside. You may see a number of elements or perhaps just a wire with a portion wound in a coil. The elements will not have a large diameter, maybe a cm or so across. During transmission, the elements are designed to focus the radiation into the pattern required for the gain of the omni. That's straight forward.

Now for receive: A signal being sent will fan outward from a hotspot. Depending on the horizontal beam width of the antenna design (360 degrees for an omni, or 60/90/120/etc degrees for a sector), the signals gradually spread out as they radiate away from the antenna. Some of that signal will hit the antenna's metal interior parts and be sensed by the receiver in the radio. Everything on either side simply passes by. Close in there'll be enough signal and strength to make no difference, but miles away, the amount of signals and the amplitude will have diminish considerably. Using a reflector (think dish) behind the elements causes those signals within the area of the dish to be reflected toward the antenna elements forming a cumulative total for those signals. That total could be expressed as gain.

However, keeping an open mind, if you have data or website reference on this "omni gain during receive" characteristic, I would be please to revise my understanding.

Mike


----------



## SVAuspicious

Jim is correct - radio is symmetric. Consider the ARRL Antenna Handbook. The sections on general theory are quite good and the microwave examples tie nicely back to the general information.


----------



## richardhula

mlahrkamp said:


> With all due respect, I must disagree. Cut open an omni and look inside. You may see a number of elements or perhaps just a wire with a portion wound in a coil. The elements will not have a large diameter, maybe a cm or so across. During transmission, the elements are designed to focus the radiation into the pattern required for the gain of the omni. That's straight forward.
> 
> Now for receive: A signal being sent will fan outward from a hotspot. Depending on the horizontal beam width of the antenna design (360 degrees for an omni, or 60/90/120/etc degrees for a sector), the signals gradually spread out as they radiate away from the antenna. Some of that signal will hit the antenna's metal interior parts and be sensed by the receiver in the radio. Everything on either side simply passes by. Close in there'll be enough signal and strength to make no difference, but miles away, the amount of signals and the amplitude will have diminish considerably. Using a reflector (think dish) behind the elements causes those signals within the area of the dish to be reflected toward the antenna elements forming a cumulative total for those signals. That total could be expressed as gain.
> 
> However, keeping an open mind, if you have data or website reference on this "omni gain during receive" characteristic, I would be please to revise my understanding.
> 
> Mike


Sorry Mike but someone with your experience should know better. Antenna gain (dBi) is its improvement relative to that of an isotropic radiator - it doesn't matter how its constructed or whether its being used for transmit, receive or both. Check out this article.

Your lengthy explanation appears as an attempt to re-invent the wheel.

No one disputes that a highly directional antenna used to maximum effect within the confines of its beam will be a significant improvement over an omni-directional one even though the latter can have significant gain as well. Its your argument that this only effects transmission from such thats at fault.


----------



## hellosailor

"Using a reflector (think dish) behind the elements causes those signals within the area of the dish to be reflected toward the antenna elements forming a cumulative total for those signals."

Which is why "omnidirectional" and "gain" are opposing design goals for most antennas. If you really want high gain, whether it is a reflector or element design, you have to lose the omnidirectional part. Yes, you can do things like stacked colinear omnidirectional antennas (which is why some high-gain omnis may be four feet tall) but their gain still never will out-do a good directional antenna.

there's smoething new in the works on the router side though. One company is borrowing a concept from phased arrays antennas, and using multiple directional antennas. Think of a clock with twelve hands on it, except each hand is a postage-stamp sized piece of metal, standing on edge. The router analyzes the signal on each antenna panel, figures out where YOU are most likely to be, and then transmits back only on the panel 9or two) that is best oriented toward you. 

And it does this with multiple connections at the same time, sending each signal in the optimum direction for each user. So the router is "omni" but only when it wants to be. Otherwise, it behaves as multiple directional antennas, under smart control.

Something new under the sun!


----------



## sailingdog

They've been working on this for quite some time. I tested a couple of active antenna arrays when I was helping with equipment setup for a company for the 2002 Olympics in SLC.



hellosailor said:


> "Using a reflector (think dish) behind the elements causes those signals within the area of the dish to be reflected toward the antenna elements forming a cumulative total for those signals."
> 
> Which is why "omnidirectional" and "gain" are opposing design goals for most antennas. If you really want high gain, whether it is a reflector or element design, you have to lose the omnidirectional part. Yes, you can do things like stacked colinear omnidirectional antennas (which is why some high-gain omnis may be four feet tall) but their gain still never will out-do a good directional antenna.
> 
> there's smoething new in the works on the router side though. One company is borrowing a concept from phased arrays antennas, and using multiple directional antennas. Think of a clock with twelve hands on it, except each hand is a postage-stamp sized piece of metal, standing on edge. The router analyzes the signal on each antenna panel, figures out where YOU are most likely to be, and then transmits back only on the panel 9or two) that is best oriented toward you.
> 
> And it does this with multiple connections at the same time, sending each signal in the optimum direction for each user. So the router is "omni" but only when it wants to be. Otherwise, it behaves as multiple directional antennas, under smart control.
> 
> Something new under the sun!


----------



## SEMIJim

mlahrkamp said:


> With all due respect, I must disagree.


*shrug* You're welcome to do that. You'd be wrong, but that's okay by me.



mlahrkamp said:


> However, keeping an open mind, if you have data or website reference on this "omni gain during receive" characteristic, I would be please to revise my understanding.


Go find a book on basic antenna and transmission line theory. While "basic," it's much, much too complicated to teach here.

I should know: I used to teach it 

Jim


----------



## billyruffn

There is nothing finer than technical brawl between radio freqs......er, I meant geeks.  :laugher


----------



## SVAuspicious

Antenna spatial diversity goes back a long time, to World War II I believe. Automatic tuning and steering started in the 70s at HF, and at microwave in the late 70s and then 80s with the US Navy AEGIS radar program. It's cool stuff.


----------



## Bene505

I think part of the confusion over the gain of an omnidirectional antenna is that we are really dealing with signal-to-noise ratios, not just signal strength.

The high-gain omni-directional antenna does not have any extra signal bounced back to it by a reflector. But it does have a tight beamwidth where it's expecting signal (perpendicular from the antenna, all 360 degrees around it). All other areas, like above and below the beamwidth, have reduced sensitivity to signals. Since most of the access points and all of the boats are at sea level, (as oppoosed to 1000 feet up), the tight beamwidth works well. The world is a very noisy place, so the narrow beamwidth gives you a much better signal-to-noise ratio.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## SVAuspicious

I think the big issue is the statement by mlahrkamp that there are antenna designs with different transmit and receive gain. 

Jim and I and others maintain there is no such animal.


----------



## SEMIJim

Bene505 said:


> I think part of the confusion over the gain of an omnidirectional antenna is that we are really dealing with signal-to-noise ratios, not just signal strength.


No, it's gain, pure and simple. And since antennas, being passive devices, have no way of discriminating between in-band noise and the desired signal, noise is "amplified," too. The only time a gain antenna improves S/N ratio is when a significant portion of the noise is off-axis to the antenna's gain pattern. This might be true for a unidirectional antenna, but less likely to be so for an omni-directional.

Jim


----------



## mlahrkamp

richardhula said:


> Sorry Mike but someone with your experience should know better. Antenna gain (dBi) is its improvement relative to that of an isotropic radiator - it doesn't matter how its constructed or whether its being used for transmit, receive or both. Check out this article.


I just had a look at the article you referenced: It only talks about output power and output signal radiation. We're exploring gain during receive.

Do you have any other website you'd recommend that refers to the gain that an omni exhibits during receive, not gain for output or radiating signal?

Mike


----------



## mlahrkamp

Excerpt from the article referenced a few posts back (here):
"Most antenna manufacturers specify gain as dBi, which is the gain relative to an isotropic source. In other words, dBi is how much the antenna increases the transmitter's power compared to using a fictitious, isotropic antenna. dBi represents the true gain that the antenna provides to the transmitter output."

You'll notice they define gain in terms of increasing transmit power only.

So, anyone have any articles or data that shows that rated gain is bi-directional in an omni? I'm eager for fact.

Mike


----------



## ffiill

When I queried the real range of the Bullet2 and Bullet 2 high power it was because I wanted to know in the real world with a typical masthead omnidirectional aerial what I could expect to pick up and from what distance.Assuming I would be in a harbour with wifi available within a mile or so from my position.
I am not in the world of just popping up my mast to change the aerial or directing it towards a particular transmitter. Neither do I expect to receive at most 2 mb broadband reception.
Problem with discussion now as is is that its about aerials in the purist world.
Its a bit the same with Ham radio.At home no problem playing with my home brewed roller coaster ATU and trying out different aerials but on my boat at sea all I want is something that delivers the best signal and sends out the best signal with minimum standing wave etc.
All I want is to arrive in a harbour switch on my laptop and be able to get useful stuff like local weather reports or over here the Met office isobaric charts etc. and perhaps watch a bit of online TV in a part of the world where medium and long range wireless communicatios are difficult.


----------



## SEMIJim

mlahrkamp said:


> So, anyone have any articles or data that shows that rated gain is bi-directional in an omni? I'm eager for fact.


*sigh* So the fact that I used to teach this stuff apparently isn't enough for you?

This is basic antenna and transmission line theory. I don't mean to offend, but anybody that _truly_ understands how antennas work knows this. But, tho it's "basic," it's also very, very complicated. It's not the kind of thing that can reasonably be taught on this site or a simple web page.

Best I can do in a short space is this: Examine the radiation pattern of an isotropic antenna element in free space. It'll be a balloon. Examine the radiation pattern of a half-wave dipole in free space. Notice how it's a big, _fat_ donut-shaped thing--with the hole along the axis of the antenna. (This dipole has 3dB gain over the isotropic source, btw, at right angles to the element.) Now examine the radiation pattern of an omni-directional "gain antenna" in free space. You'll notice it's a flattened along the antenna's axis and elongated at right angles to the antenna, as compared to the simple dipole. Now, in any of the two latter instances: Imagine an RF source that's outside the previous antenna's radiation patterns. E.g.: A source that's outside the isotropic antenna's pattern, but w/in the dipole's. A receiver connected to the lower-gain antenna would not be able to "hear" that RF source.

The power, or "value," of a signal is in its S/N ratio. A signal theoretically never truly disappears, it just becomes so weak (dissipated--in every sense of the word) its S/N ratio at the receiver has it buried in the noise. A gain antenna improves the energy received (more technically: The energy density), in a given direction, or, in the case of an omni-directional antenna, along a given plane (kind of--it's not really a "plane," per se). (In this respect, Bene505 was correct: It's all about S/N ratio.)

That's the best I can do. (And the most I'm willing to do.) I've forgotten more than I remember about this stuff. Like I said: I used to teach it. I could post my CV, but, if you don't believe me now, that probably wouldn't do any good, either.

Jim


----------



## SEMIJim

ffiill said:


> When I queried the real range of the Bullet2 and Bullet 2 high power it was because I wanted to know in the real world with a typical masthead omnidirectional aerial what I could expect to pick up and from what distance.


You're not going to get a definitive answer because there is no such thing. There are too many variables.



ffiill said:


> Problem with discussion now as is is that its about aerials in the purist world.


That's because the only way to intelligently discuss such things is to remove extraneous variables. Thus we discuss the theoretical behaviour of radiators in free space, which is an impossibility to achieve in reality, even if we _were_ in free space, because the theoretical models don't even account for the presence of a feed line .

It has to be that way. It's the only way it can be.

Jim


----------



## SVAuspicious

This technical area is all laid out in pretty plain English in the ARRL Antenna Handbook I referenced above. Sure there are yet more technical references but I'm not aware of anyone who takes issue with the ARRL publication. 

If Mike, who asks for references, won't follow up then this isn't a discussion - it's an argument and I won't play.

Auspicious out.


----------



## mlahrkamp

With all due respect to all particpants: This thread was originally suggesting (from my reading) that a 12dBi antenna was going to be superior to, say, a 6dbi because it had more range. 

Max power allowed is 36dBm for Wi-Fi (for Point-To-Multipoint). That's a full power Bullet2HP and a 6dBi antenna. Staying within the 36dBm limit, a 12dBi antenna coupled to a Bullet would need it's output power derated to 24dBm (250mW). It would seem the benefit of increasing the antenna gain is significantly reduced, if not eliminated, by the decrease in power output of the radio. What you end up with is about the same range and a pancake of a radiation pattern. Why not just stay with the 6dBi and enjoy a fuller 'donut'?

Of course, there are those that would (whether intentionally or not) couple a full power Bullet2HP to a 12dBi omni (42dBm, 16W output). The result is overdriving of the input of the hotspot receiver if in close enough and polluting the airwaves for everyone at an anchorage or marina. Tests we've run and from what I've already read in this thread suggest this is happening. Now at distance: The problem is that the hotspot is probably running only at 36dBm (4W) and may hear a distant 12dBi system, but the distant 12dBi system can't hear back because the hotspot is putting out 4x less power. My arguement (from our tests) is that the Bullet (with stated sensitivities) having a 12dBi antenna stuck on it does not increase its ability to receive to the same order of magnitude as its ability to transmit. Ergo: different effective real world transmit and receive gains. We have successfully connected in excess of 5sm using a 6dBi omni and Bullet2HP mounted on a radar arch (with a clear line of sight and a properly powered and located hotspot of course).

If you want a reliable connection to those distant hotspots that seem flakey, increase the sensitivity by selecting B mode where the spec for the Bullet2HP says that sensitivity and output power are highest. There is also the benefit with lower data rates to receive more reliably since each bit slice time is longer thus giving the receiver a greater opportunity to properly detect it.

This is not about believing/disbelieving anyone. It's about being a good netizen (net citizen) and sharing a Wi-Fi resource that should be available to be enjoyed by all in a marina or anchorage.

Again, if anyone has any real world experience that suggests any of what I've stated above is faulty, I'm alway open to listen and potentially change my viewpoint. 

Mike


----------



## SEMIJim

SVAuspicious said:


> This technical area is all laid out in pretty plain English in the ARRL Antenna Handbook I referenced above. Sure there are yet more technical references but I'm not aware of anyone who takes issue with the ARRL publication.


Nor am I. I never read it, but that's because I got all my antenna, transmission line and propagation theory, and a good deal of practical application, long before I obtained my Amateur Radio license. Hell, I was _teaching_ it long before then.



SVAuspicious said:


> If Mike, who asks for references, won't follow up then this isn't a discussion - it's an argument and I won't play.
> 
> Auspicious out.


Same here.

Jim


----------



## mlahrkamp

Hey guys: I'm not seeing any compelling counterpoint or reasoning to suggest that tests and observations done by us (bitstorm.com) regarding wifi hi-gain omni antenna usage are wrong, even though I've asked each time for enlightenment.

End of this thread?

Mike


----------



## Bene505

Last Sunday was a beautiful day on the Long Island Sound. DavidPM and I headed out and found a complete calm. No wind whatsoever.

So I took advantage of the fact that I had a skilled helper on board. We went to work running the cat-5 cable for the Bullet2HP down the mast. I was a bit reluctant, becuase I haven't done the "height above the water" experiment to see if hoisting the Bullet higher gives better reception. Completing the permanent mounting meant bye-bye to that experiment. But I didn't want to waste the opportunity.

Well, guess what? We couldn't get the wire run. First we tried using a metal pull cord tied to monofilament. It stopped right above the deck. We know because I tide off the end at the top, pulled the line out of the mast, and let it hang on the outside.

With me at the top and David below, we thought that maybe it was caught on something due to the angle of the mast. I jiggled and jiggled -- no luck.

Then David tried running the boat in circles, going over our own wake, while I lifted and dropped the line inside the mast. Lifted and dropped. And jiggled. And jiggled some more. No luck.

(If you were at Sands Point or Glen Cove seeing a couple of crazy guys doing tight figure eights at high speed on a calm day, that was us.)

Next we used an unused antenna cable that was already inside the mast. (It went to the mystery antenna I posted about a couple years ago.) I cut off the end, tied the monofilament to it and wrapped the knots with electrical tape. This was after the boat stopped again so there was less need to hold on tight. David pulled (hard) on the bottom of that cable. The end got down to right above deck height and something in the mast peeled away the monofilament. David got a wire with no messenger line attached. That was a setback. Instead of being plus one cable I'm now minus one cable.

...That and my brand-new Todd 4-step dock stairs disappeared during the (very windy) week. Someone said they saw it floating out the inlet. It was a tough week. I really liked those steps.

The good news is the the wind came up a bit after that and we managed to get short bit of light-wind sailing in. That and I still get to do the "height above the water" test. You may see it posted here after I get some free time to run that test.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## Bilgewater

Brad, thanks for starting this most excellent thread and for the experimentation. I've been following this and the antenna thread since day one. I've got all the parts on order and I should be putting it together in the next month or so. I will post my results and my permanent installation when completed. I'm finally getting this off the ground, I've been humming and hawing for far too long.


----------



## Bene505

seayalatermoonglow said:


> Brad, thanks for starting this most excellent thread and for the experimentation. I've been following this and the antenna thread since day one. I've got all the parts on order and I should be putting it together in the next month or so. I will post my results and my permanent installation when completed. I'm finally getting this off the ground, I've been humming and hawing for far too long.


Thanks Seaya,

I'm now hooking up a webcam to my long range wifi. You'll be able to control the pan & tilt and see the cam in the salon.

Why did I do this? I did not winterinze the engine this year since I'm using the boat so much. I'm depending on a bilge heater in the engine compartment to keep the engine from freezing. The heater is connected to shore power. I already found the boat not properly connected to shore power after the marina moved her to her winter slip. She's 25 minutes away and it's important that I keep checking on her.

So yesterday I bought a wireless webcam, with pan and tilt! I'm putting it in the salon so I can check that the boat is still plugged into shore power and the heater is working. I have a 120v light bulb on and I'll put a mercury thermometer in plain sight. (I have a heater in the salon too.) It will be easy to see that everything's ok. The camera was about $70, or a fraction of the cost of the engine work needed if the raw water pipes freezes and things burst.

Having the long range wifi gives me some options in using the webcam while on the hook this summer, even though it's an indoor webcam (THere are outdoor webcams for 3x the price. I'm going to walk before running on this one.) And yes, I'll have to share the web address so you can check out the setup. You'll be able to control the up-and-down and side-to-side motion of the camera, and see the interior of the boat.

The web cam is a little like this one, only I bought it from someone in the US. I didn't want to wait for delivery from Hong Kong -- winter is already here in the Northeast US.










Good luck with your long range wifi installation. I found it a little tricky at first. It helped when I powered up the Bullet after the laptop was already powered-up. But others have found this not to be a requirement. If you need any help just holler.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## Bilgewater

Can anyone help me to figure out what's wrong here.   First off, everything arrived and it all went together just fine. The Bullet M2, a TP-Link TL-ANT2412DI Antenna and associated gear. I have followed the directions using both of the following sets of instructions.
http://www.ubnt.com/downloads/Nano_Quick_Set-up.pdf
Bullet setup.pdf - 4shared.com - document sharing - download
I have spent 2 days trying different things with no success.

This is my current LAN setup.










At this stage, I get two green lights on the Bullet. From here on in it gets tricky to get into the AirOS setup page. Sometimes I can get in if I disconnect the power wait a while and re-connect and eventually I get in. Once in, I have tried updating the firmware under the system tab many times. I was able to download v 5.3 firmware but during the upload it gives up and I can't get any further.

So I gave up on that and decided to set the network up under the network tab. So I re-power the bullet and start over and I go to the network tab. Here are my settings:



















At this stage, the Bullet's two green light are on and I'm still connected. But once I push Change, the upper lights on the Bullet start flashing continuously/randomly and my LAN connection rotating messages between "network cable unplugged" "Identifying" "unidentified network". See image below. Nothing will happen in the AirOS setup page, ie: The "apply" button does not appear at the top of the page.

I've tried everything I can think of including re-setting the Bullet using the button on the bottom of the unit. I have also disabled the firewall. Right now I'm using Windows 7 but I have also tried installation on my other laptop running XP.

Any help would be appreciated.
Steve


----------



## sailingdog

*READ THIS ARTICLE I WROTE* If you still need help after reading it, PM me a phone number I can reach you at, and I'll see if I can walk you through it.



seayalatermoonglow said:


> Can anyone help me to figure out what's wrong here.   First off, everything arrived and it all went together just fine. The Bullet M2, a TP-Link TL-ANT2412DI Antenna and associated gear. I have followed the directions using both of the following sets of instructions.
> http://www.ubnt.com/downloads/Nano_Quick_Set-up.pdf
> Bullet setup.pdf - 4shared.com - document sharing - download
> I have spent 2 days trying different things with no success.
> 
> This is my current LAN setup.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At this stage, I get two green lights on the Bullet. From here on in it gets tricky to get into the AirOS setup page. Sometimes I can get in if I disconnect the power wait a while and re-connect and eventually I get in. Once in, I have tried updating the firmware under the system tab many times. I was able to download v 5.3 firmware but during the upload it gives up and I can't get any further.
> 
> So I gave up on that and decided to set the network up under the network tab. So I re-power the bullet and start over and I go to the network tab. Here are my settings:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At this stage, the Bullet's two green light are on and I'm still connected. But once I push Change, the upper lights on the Bullet start flashing continuously/randomly and my LAN connection rotating messages between "network cable unplugged" "Identifying" "unidentified network". See image below. Nothing will happen in the AirOS setup page, ie: The "apply" button does not appear at the top of the page.
> 
> I've tried everything I can think of including re-setting the Bullet using the button on the bottom of the unit. I have also disabled the firewall. Right now I'm using Windows 7 but I have also tried installation on my other laptop running XP.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated.
> Steve


----------



## Bilgewater

Thanks Dan, I'll let you know how I make out.


----------



## richardhula

seayalatermoonglow said:


> Can anyone help me to figure out what's wrong here.   First off, everything arrived and it all went together just fine. The Bullet M2, a TP-Link TL-ANT2412DI Antenna and associated gear. I have followed the directions using both of the following sets of instructions.
> http://www.ubnt.com/downloads/Nano_Quick_Set-up.pdf
> Bullet setup.pdf - 4shared.com - document sharing - download
> I have spent 2 days trying different things with no success.
> 
> This is my current LAN setup.


This is only required for initial setup - even then only first two lines need changing i.e. IP address set to same subnet but other than 192.168.1.20 'cos your Bullet is factory set to that address. Subnet mask set as above, that's all.



> At this stage, I get two green lights on the Bullet. From here on in it gets tricky to get into the AirOS setup page. Sometimes I can get in if I disconnect the power wait a while and re-connect and eventually I get in. Once in, I have tried updating the firmware under the system tab many times. I was able to download v 5.3 firmware but during the upload it gives up and I can't get any further.
> 
> So I gave up on that and decided to set the network up under the network tab. So I re-power the bullet and start over and I go to the network tab. Here are my settings:


Its clear from attached image that you have Bullet set as Access Point. Go to Wireless tab & set it as Station as clearly mentioned in instructions. Maybe read them again whilst your at it.


----------



## Bilgewater

richardhula said:


> Its clear from attached image that you have Bullet set as Access Point. Go to Wireless tab & set it as Station as clearly mentioned in instructions. Maybe read them again whilst your at it.


Thanks very much, I know it's clearly in the instructions and I know it needs to be set but that's near the bottom of the instructions .As you can see from my description I can't set anything. Those photos are taken before I hit the "change" button. ie: changing anything locks it up. I think you might be suggesting to skip all other steps and set that, so I will try that and see what happens.


----------



## richardhula

seayalatermoonglow said:


> Thanks very much, I know it's clearly in the instructions and I know it needs to be set but that's near the bottom of the instructions .As you can see from my description I can't set anything. Those photos are taken before I hit the "change" button. ie: changing anything locks it up. I think you might be suggesting to skip all other steps and set that, so I will try that and see what happens.


Yes just setup in the order as shown in my guide.

Factory default is of course Access Point mode so just make all the changes pressing Change button after each THEN press Apply button to institute the changes.

You should only have to press Apply once to configure.

I wonder if the "lock up" you refer to is simply the result of enabling DHCP on the 192.168.10.xx subnet. As explained in the guide you loose access to the setup menu once the changes are made because you have changed the IP address. You need to reset your PC LAN adapter to obtain address automatically (default setting). DHCP on your Bullet will do its stuff with your PC & you should then be able to access it again on new address 192.168.10.20


----------



## Bilgewater

sailingdog said:


> *READ THIS ARTICLE I WROTE* If you still need help after reading it, PM me a phone number I can reach you at, and I'll see if I can walk you through it.


Dan, I need to take a break from this to get some other pressing things done, I will play with it some other time and if no luck I'll pm you. Didn't get much futher on with this, as a matter of fact it's worse than ever. Now I can't even get to the AirOS login page, I was only able to get on once in the last while but it's never been consistant. No matter what I do now, when I enter the url 192.168.1.20 and hit a return, the bullet starts flashing red orange etc. and I get a popup message "A network cable is unplugged" in XP and similar results on OS7.

I followed the beginning of your directions in the article.


----------



## Bilgewater

richardhula said:


> I wonder if the "lock up" you refer to is simply the result of enabling DHCP on the 192.168.10.xx subnet. As explained in the guide you loose access to the setup menu once the changes are made because you have changed the IP address. You need to reset your PC LAN adapter to obtain address automatically (default setting). DHCP on your Bullet will do its stuff with your PC & you should then be able to access it again on new address 192.168.10.20


Tried this, no luck. Right now it does nothing anymore. I connect it, get two green lights LAN control panel shows it connecting as "unidentified network". Entering 192.168.1.20 in the browser results in nothing now. But it was like that intermittantly before, now I can't get to the setup page at all. Need to take a break and get some other stuff done. Thanks for the help.


----------



## richardhula

seayalatermoonglow said:


> Entering 192.168.1.20 in the browser results in nothing now.


Is this because in the instructions you are told to change Bullet address to 192.168.10.20 ?

If you have made the change then naturally you will need to use this new address.

Suggest you reset Bullet then start again.


----------



## Bene505

mlahrkamp said:


> With all due respect to all particpants: This thread was originally suggesting (from my reading) that a 12dBi antenna was going to be superior to, say, a 6dbi because it had more range.
> 
> Max power allowed is 36dBm for Wi-Fi (for Point-To-Multipoint). That's a full power Bullet2HP and a 6dBi antenna. Staying within the 36dBm limit, a 12dBi antenna coupled to a Bullet would need it's output power derated to 24dBm (250mW). It would seem the benefit of increasing the antenna gain is significantly reduced, if not eliminated, by the decrease in power output of the radio. What you end up with is about the same range and a pancake of a radiation pattern. Why not just stay with the 6dBi and enjoy a fuller 'donut'?
> 
> Of course, there are those that would (whether intentionally or not) couple a full power Bullet2HP to a 12dBi omni (42dBm, 16W output). The result is overdriving of the input of the hotspot receiver if in close enough and polluting the airwaves for everyone at an anchorage or marina. Tests we've run and from what I've already read in this thread suggest this is happening. Now at distance: The problem is that the hotspot is probably running only at 36dBm (4W) and may hear a distant 12dBi system, but the distant 12dBi system can't hear back because the hotspot is putting out 4x less power. My arguement (from our tests) is that the Bullet (with stated sensitivities) having a 12dBi antenna stuck on it does not increase its ability to receive to the same order of magnitude as its ability to transmit. Ergo: different effective real world transmit and receive gains. We have successfully connected in excess of 5sm using a 6dBi omni and Bullet2HP mounted on a radar arch (with a clear line of sight and a properly powered and located hotspot of course).
> 
> If you want a reliable connection to those distant hotspots that seem flakey, increase the sensitivity by selecting B mode where the spec for the Bullet2HP says that sensitivity and output power are highest. There is also the benefit with lower data rates to receive more reliably since each bit slice time is longer thus giving the receiver a greater opportunity to properly detect it.
> 
> This is not about believing/disbelieving anyone. It's about being a good netizen (net citizen) and sharing a Wi-Fi resource that should be available to be enjoyed by all in a marina or anchorage.
> 
> Again, if anyone has any real world experience that suggests any of what I've stated above is faulty, I'm alway open to listen and potentially change my viewpoint.
> 
> Mike


(Just re-read this.)

I didn't know this before Mike posted about it. One minor correction I'd make....

*Having a high gain antenna will help the receive signal strength, so you'll be able to recieive signals from farther away from the marina or other access point.* From what Mike says, after connecting a high gain antenna you would lower the transmit power. And doing so won't matter to you because you are limited by your receive signal strength. And you'll be a good netizen too.

This means that with a high gain antenna you could buy a cheaper bullet that doesn't have 1000mw (1 watt) of transmit power. If I recall correctly, the 250mw ones are much cheaper. Even the 800mw ones are cheaper.

As for me, since I like to experiment, and I don't mind making the setting changes, I'll keep the higher power one that I have and lower it's power output. Some experimantation is in order to find the sweet spot of lowest power without affecting performance.

WiFi is designed to serve multiple poeple at once. We don't want sailboats to get a bad reputation by "stepping on" the signals from others. Please transmit responsibly.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## richardhula

Bene505 said:


> (Just re-read this.)
> 
> I didn't know this before Mike posted about it. One minor correction I'd make....
> 
> *Having a high gain antenna will help the receive signal strength, so you'll be able to recieive signals from farther away from the marina or other access point.* From what Mike says, after connecting a high gain antenna you would lower the transmit power. And doing so won't matter to you because you are limited by your receive signal strength. And you'll be a good netizen too.
> 
> This means that with a high gain antenna you could buy a cheaper bullet that doesn't have 1000mw (1 watt) of transmit power. If I recall correctly, the 250mw ones are much cheaper. Even the 800mw ones are cheaper.
> 
> As for me, since I like to experiment, and I don't mind making the setting changes, I'll keep the higher power one that I have and lower it's power output. Some experimantation is in order to find the sweet spot of lowest power without affecting performance.
> 
> WiFi is designed to serve multiple poeple at once. We don't want sailboats to get a bad reputation by "stepping on" the signals from others. Please transmit responsibly.
> 
> Regards,
> Brad


Brad I thought we had laid this one to rest. In the 2.4GHz Bullet range there are 2, 2HP and M2HP models. The Bullet 2 spec is 20dBm = 100mW tx power with 802.11b connection. The 2HP 29dBm = 800mW. The M2HP almost the same @ 28dBm but with greater tolerance. In any case prices are much the same - in fact some suppliers sell the newer, higher turnover M2HP cheaper than legacy models.

There are no 250mW or 1000mW models - some suppliers just round up to make the figures look good.


----------



## Bilgewater

richardhula said:


> Is this because in the instructions you are told to change Bullet address to 192.168.10.20 ?
> 
> If you have made the change then naturally you will need to use this new address.
> 
> Suggest you reset Bullet then start again.


Well well well, that's definitely part of my problem.

OK...I have success (somewhat).    
Thanks very much for your time Dan and Richard.

I will say now, I'm in a somewhat remote area close to a very very tiny village and it has given me wifi where I had none prior to getting this going. Right now the antenna is sitting vertically in the pilothouse and I have about 4 good sites to choose from and a few encrypted ones, so I expect better once I experiment with hoisting the unit up the mast.

But  I have some major problems. For example (and this is what has been giving me a lot of grief all along and it's why it's taken so long to get all the changes made). This is quite random, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Right now for example my LAN is reading "Network 2" and I can surf the net. When I open a new window and select 192.168.10.20 I get the logon page but as soon as I make the entries and hit a return, the LAN immediately switches to "Network cable unplugged" and then it changes to "Identifying" and finally "Network 2" and I never get in. On the odd occasion I can get in but changing to another wifi location will give me the same results.

To get it going again, I have to disconnect the power to the Bullet, wait about 5 or 10 minutes and then I can get as far as changing sites, hitting "change" and then hitting "apply" under the wireless tab. but the moment I select the "Main" tab, I loose my connection again just like above. But if I go through that process again, I can see that it has actually been changed. Sometimes I can just re-launch the browser but usually I have to unplug the Bullet and let is sit for a while.

This is all very very random and changes for whatever reason. I haven't made any changes to settings for quite a few hours since I got it to work.

[edit] As far as I can tell right now, once I have a connection to a site, I can surf as long as I want without running into the above problems. But I haven't had a lot of time connected to test that. The problem seems to occure whenever I try to get to the AirOS setup page.

[edit] So it appears that I do have problems even if I'm just surfing. It says I'm connected but I can't open any web pages. There is no way for me to tell what the connection is like but after powering down the Bullet for a period of time and starting over, and going through the same process, I can link to the same wifi site and I'm back in business.
This doesn't really work very well as is, it's very frustrating.


----------



## estopa

Thanks Guys, I was able to quickly setup my Bullet 2hp which will be used on my ODAY 222. Can't wait to get wifi on the marina. Now just need the weather to cooperate for a launch.



















I bought from a relatively local NY place - Wireless Network Products - Professional Design and Distribution of Alternative Energy, Wireless Network, & Wireless Video Solutions
HD21058 8dBi Omni-directional Antenna HD21058 $49.99 
Bullet2 HP Ubiquiti Bullet 2HP Outdoor 2.4GHz High Power 1 Watt, HD26986 $78.50


----------



## Bene505

Nice setup estopa!

You haven't lived until you've experimented with a car battery in your house.

Regards,
Brad


----------



## foggysail

Just received my Bullet m2hp along with a POE box with a built in 15vdc supply. Had some initial problems getting through to the ubnt site to set the Bullet but that was a minor hold up.

My 15db antenna will be here next week!!!! Anxious to get the system up and operational. There are sooo many public sites (or at least was) over at Vineyard Haven where we plan to spend a couple of weeks. HAPPY, HAPPY I FOUND THIS SITE a year or so ago!!!

Foggy


----------



## SEMIJim

I hate to be a wet blanket or anything, but...



estopa said:


>


Those two antennas right next to each other like that aren't doing either of them any favours, performance-wise.

Jim


----------



## ambianceack

has anyone used the "wirie" advertised on this page for wifi access?


----------



## SVAuspicious

ambianceack said:


> has anyone used the "wirie" advertised on this page for wifi access?


The Wirie is a repackaged Alfa USB wifi adapter. The repackaging includes a waterproof Pelican case, a mount, and a custom higher-gain antenna.

I have an Alfa adapter that I use as a portable range-extender. It works okay--certainly better than the built-in wifi in my laptop.

The Bullet2HP-based system on my boat is a substantial improvement over the Alfa.


----------



## foggysail

One can read my excitement above after receiving my Bullet. Great looking product but............

I am totally disgusted with Ubiquiti Networks support. Ubiquiti site recommends using their forum for technical questions.... Yeah, I posted two questions which received almost immediate responses from folks there providing helpful answers. My third post to communicate with one of the posters is still held up for review by a moderator!!! It along with another attempted post have not made the forum as I type. I have answers to my questions but through no help from Ubiquiti. There was nothing in my posts that would have caused concerns.

I was given a pointer to the user's manual last night in another boating forum. Best to look for technical help outside of Ubiquiti Networks.

EDIT: 

UPDATE

I was able to resolve my issues at Ubiquiti. My post got hung up on a technicality, not a moderator that is now resolved. There is valuable information/instructions in this thread though so I will share my progress or lack of it when I get my antenna set up.

Foggy


----------



## SVAuspicious

Try the links to documentation on wififorboats.com . Good stuff.

The Bullet2HP is a wonderful product (I'm connected through one now). Send me a note if you continue to have problems and I'll try to help. There are lots and lots of us out there quite happy with them and pleased to have a system that works better than the alternatives. 

Sorry you're having problems.


----------



## foggysail

SVAuspicious said:


> Try the links to documentation on wififorboats.com . Good stuff.
> 
> The Bullet2HP is a wonderful product (I'm connected through one now). Send me a note if you continue to have problems and I'll try to help. There are lots and lots of us out there quite happy with them and pleased to have a system that works better than the alternatives.
> 
> Sorry you're having problems.


Thanks SV---

If I stumble I will take advantage of your offer!! I want to get my antenna (next week for delivery) before I do much more with the system.

Foggy


----------



## Bene505

Anything new to add to this thread?

Any interesting experiences?

I'm still messing around with a permanent installation. Just pulled the Cat5 cable out of my mast because it wasn't in the wiring race (conduit) but loose in the mast. I 0lan to redo it properly in the near future.

The "height above water" test is still a possibilty, it's just a matter of finding the time. Until I get the top-of-mast setup completed, I hang the Bullet2HP from the boom and it works well.

Here's a link to the 9db versus 12 db antenna tests. http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electronics/69566-long-range-wifi-antenna-tests.html

Regards,
Brad


----------



## RonRock

I am in an attempt to set this up for a friend of mine that is getting ready to live aboard his Island Packet in the Bahamas. I have read so many threads on the setup that now I am almost more lost than when I started.

I plan to buy one of the Bullets and antenna as well as POE and Cat5.

From what I have read there is little difference between the Bullet M2HP (newer version) and the Bullet 2HP in performance. I have found that they are priced the same. So how do I decide between the two?

Antenna's seem to be a big question in this setup. From what I have read it seems that bigger is not always better in omni directional antennas. So I'm trying to decide between 8/10/12 db antenna. Please help me with that.

The POE and cable is easy enough. But If you guys could point me to a seller that has all of the pieces that would be great. Give me part numbers and I'll buy you a virtual beer. Hell I'll buy the house a round.

Part of my problem deciding on these items is that threads like this one and others discussing the Bullet were started a couple years ago. In electronics that seems to be a long time, things change. So looking for today's suggestions.

Cheers,
Ron


----------



## hellosailor

Ron-
Bullet 2HP seems to be obsolete technology, it works with 802.11 b/g radios. For about five years now the 802.11 b/g/n standard has replaced that. The /n radios provide for greater speed and range.
If the hot spot you are logged into still uses an old router, there's no difference. If they've been keeping up with the times, the M2HP with the 802.11n ability should give you less interference, more range, faster throughput. Couple or five years down the line from now--the obsolete stuff will _really _be obsolete, so why buy into it now?


----------



## RonRock

Thanks I had read that the M2HP had the "n" ability, but was unsure if it was also able to work with the b/g standard. I'm with you on not buying old tech. So looks like the M2HP is the correct Bullet.

Now for the tricky question, what antenna?


----------



## Cruisingdad

RonRock said:


> Thanks I had read that the M2HP had the "n" ability, but was unsure if it was also able to work with the b/g standard. I'm with you on not buying old tech. So looks like the M2HP is the correct Bullet.
> 
> Now for the tricky question, what antenna?


I just purchased my Bulletm2hp from Islandtimepc. It is: Marine PC's & WiFi by IslandTime PC

I think it was about $250 total. You can probably build your own at a lower cost, but if your time is worth much, I would talk to Bob there. That price is for the whole system.

Brian


----------



## Goodtoknow

This is all greek to me. I am planning a trip from Florida to NY. Do these black boxes in the discussion extend the reach of wireless internet. How far?
Bruce


----------



## F15EWSO

I just bought the kit from IslandTimePC and am happy. Bear in mind that most access points you pull in with the bullet will be WEP secured so you'll need a password from the marina to get on. I do NOT regret my purchase but just getting 50 access points to chose from does NOT ensure a fast connection. My marina where I am staging now before our cruise has CRAP internet, I get a great signal of a VERY slow connection. There are two parts to this puzzle.


----------



## thesnort

Very unhappy with the overpriced, underpowered "The Wirie". And, if you don't get it back to them very quickly, they will keep your money. Count on zero refund if you fall outside their 10-day return policy.
For a third the price, you can do much better for yourself.


----------



## kiltym

This customer wanted to return his unit after 4 weeks of having it. We have only a 10-day return policy (which is flexible, assuming we are contacted by the customer, which in this case, we were not, he simply sent it back after having it for 4 weeks). And the unit was returned damaged.

He is upset we will not give him a refund and is now posting on numerous forums in an attempt to threaten us with bad publicity.

We will not comment further on this issue on this forum.



thesnort said:


> Very unhappy with the overpriced, underpowered "The Wirie". And, if you don't get it back to them very quickly, they will keep your money. Count on zero refund if you fall outside their 10-day return policy.
> For a third the price, you can do much better for yourself.


----------



## thesnort

Seller had no complaints about the product returned to him. Then said it was damaged. Then said it had cosmetic issues. 
Instead of refunding, he is sending the product back to me and keeping the money. The other forum is CF, where another forum member chimed in right away with a similar complaint.
I am not at all satisfied with the product and less satisfied to discover someone with questionable business practices.


----------



## kiltym

I am posting because of the false statement being provided by "thesnort".

As soon as the customer sent us an email (11/26/2012 6pm) stating he returned the product to us, we notified him immediately (11/26/2012 8pm) that we would not accept the return as it was 4 weeks since he received the item, and never contacted us to discuss the situation. We would certainly test the unit and confirm proper functionality when we received it, and then return it to him. This was the first email we ever received from him.

The email we sent him after receiving his returned unit (11/28/2012 7am) is posted on CF. I think it speaks for itself about the situation.

Please don't make up "facts". We have the entire communication thread between you and us, and I don't really think you want me to post that to set the record straight (probably nobody else does either ).

Our return policy is clearly stated on our site, and is agreed to when you checkout. We are sorry you don't agree with it, but slandering the product, after you have stated "I tried your product for a mere minutes", is a bit unnecessary as you have no idea, positive or negative, on how our product works.



thesnort said:


> Seller had no complaints about the product returned to him.


----------



## thesnort

Product was purchased 10/15/12, received at least a week later. I sent product back WEEKS ago.
I would like a full refund for a product I do not want, consider enormously overpriced, and barely functional.
Your facts change to justify yourself.
Yes, please refer to the post on CF, which has been closed by a moderator.
Based on seller's business practices, I'm sure others would have chimed in as well if it had been left open. At any rate, any reasonable person can draw their own conclusions.


----------



## hellosailor

Reasonable persons might ask to see the shipping dates. Invoice, postmark, return label postmarked for proof of shipping and signed with proof of receipt. Which presumably only snort would have.

Otherwise, this is all "he said she said" before there's any question of whether the good were damaged, or worked, or anything else.

It would seem that there's enough profit margin built into each box, that The Wirie wouldn't have any problem upholding a ten-day trial period. But given the vague dates, if it was out for a month...that's why the electronic stores cut their refund periods on cameras, as folks bought them, took them on vacation, and then returned them a _month _later.

Receipts, snort. Dated receipts first.


----------



## F15EWSO

I think ten days is too short. Suppose you don't live on your boat, need a weekend to install it, varying conditions to evaluate it. I think 30 days for a marine product is fair.


----------



## hellosailor

"Fair" is what the warranty offers, up front. You don't unlaterally renegotiate that after the purchase. Product says ten day return privilege and that won't work for you? Either you don't buy it, or you call ahead _before _the purchase to make other arrangements.

I'm not taking sides in this fight because so far I only heare "he says she says" but I note that ten days in the customer's hands. Other companies say ten days from the date of sale, and uinless you use express shipping both ways--_that _really is piushing things.

Could just as simply be buyer's remorse after finding out the Wirie is (?) just a strong wifi repeater in a waterproof case. Unless there's something special about the software, etc., a fast look at the web site could make a techie suspect that. (Generic repeater, under $100 this year. Generic waterproof case, varies with how well you know your Tupperware Lady. (G)

Of course a $12,000 Rolex doesn't keep time any better than a $12 Casio, but I still know which one I'd rather be seen wearing.(G)


----------



## Faster

This thread had been dormant since August.. It's unfortunate when a purchase turns out to be not what one expected. 

However, having allowed both parties to state their case we're going to close this thread. Both make contrary claims, but neither have been substantiated as noted above, and SN is not the venue for that in any event.

I sincerely hope the parties can come to an agreement, but if they don't I suppose that won't be the first time.


----------

