# What constitutes an 'experienced sailor'?



## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Also wondering what criteria people have in determining the experience of a sailor.

Is it total nautical miles? If so how many?
Days out on the water? Night passages?
Experience in extreme weather?
Certification?
Is cruising or racing a determining factor?
Is it the area in which one sails- lake, coastal, ocean - inshore, offshore?
Is it the quantity of areas having sailed in?
Is it the number of anchorages visited? The number of countries visited?
Is it a combination of the above or are there other metrics needing to be taken into account?

Cheers


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

Well, uh, yes to your last one, at least.

I'd say time, time, time. Not necessarily how many miles, but how much experience in those miles.

Plus quality of time--differing boats, geography, weather, responsibilities, crews, and still being alive after all that to tell about it.

Knowing about boats, forces of nature on boats, mechanical systems, electric, engine, rigging, 

Plus, some intangibles--a sense of relative motion, respect for the sea, being aware of what's around you, and which of that matters and in which order. When to be bold, or humble or neither.

It's kind of like asking what makes a successful life--the more I type (as here) the less sure I am, though I think I "know it when I see it"?. What makes a good cruising sailor may not make a good racing sailor, and vice versa, but there is lots of overlap.


I give up. too big a question.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

If you have sailed, you are experienced.

Unless you have sailed less than someone else who is interested in proving they are more experienced.


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## rnixon (May 7, 2013)

It depends upon the conclusions that you want to draw from someone being an 'experienced sailor'.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

nolatom said:


> I give up. too big a question.


Agree.

Someone could have been sailing for 30+ years but has never done any more than daysailing a small lake; and stayed home anytime it blew over 10 knots.

Others have girdled the globe in much less time. Some of those braved the southern ocean and may have survived/experienced very severe conditions.. others may not have seen a true storm despite all the distance they've covered.

Coastal sailors might in fact have endured more trying/dangerous conditions than one offshore might..

Some people learn from mistakes and experience, others seem doomed to repeat them..


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> too big a question.


It is a big question but I am curious as to how it is approached.


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## XSrcing (Aug 22, 2015)

Someone who has made enough mistakes that they can now spot and correct the issue before anything happens.


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## hangupndrive (May 4, 2007)

Miles under the keel, ok.
Years of sailing, ok.
Technical knowledge, ok.

None of this means a thing unless a sailor is self-aware to the point they can understand their limitations. A person my have extensive experience in a specific environment. For example, if all one does is sail between Newport Beach and Catalina Island, they may have trouble with extreme local conditions of other areas.

Trust your knowledge, training and experience but stay humble.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I think one needs to understand any particular sailors' background and priorities when it comes to assessing any advice and suggestions they might offer you...


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Experience comes from being scared......


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

Experienced in what?

Every sailor has _experience_ but a broad level of experience will make you a more well rounded sailor.

Five years ago we ran into a couple who had been around the world and were from France. Maine and the Maritime's were their last stop before heading home to get back to land life.

In one week in Maine they had hit ledge, wrapped six or seven lobster pots, got lost in the fog and wound up aground as a result. They had also anchored in 14' of water at high tide and awoke to no water and smooshed up against one side of the berth. They had enough experience to get out in the mud and scrub the bottom to take advantage of and make a bad situation better though..

They had lots of off shore experience in going around the world but less experience dealing with Maine's thick fog, 10'-20' + tides, lobster pots and granite ledges. Experienced sailors, absolutely. Experienced in Maine, not yet....

Good friends of my wife and I have done far more offshore races than we/I have, over ten Bermuda races, yet when we cruised with them this summer they did not even really know how to anchor or how to navigate in the fog when close to shore. He's a very experienced racer but has less experience being a cruiser...

Diversity of experiences will help you become a _well rounded_ sailor. Heck I would even say having been a power boater can make you a more "experienced sailor". Experience comes in many forms and I don't believe you can ever "fill the experience bucket", you just add to it....


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

I know what you are saying Maine Sail. I have a friend who I would not let touch my boat despite having a yachtmaster. Conversely, I have another friend who has never sailed but I would likely trust after minimal personal instruction.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey,

As Maine wrote, experienced on what?

I've been out with a guy who had years of sailing, was AMAZING at reading a chart (he took us all around the Thimble Islands -if you know the area you know what I mean), and great at steering, but didn't know what the traveler was for, or how to depower the rig when the wind picked up. 

I've been out on people who sailed for years, and knew all about sailing, but nothing about racing. They almost complained when we had to make numerous headsail changes. 

I know a guy who is a FANTASTIC sailor. He is great at racing, can see the wind before anyone, knows how currents affect thing, great on steering, sail trim, sail selection, etc. He is useless when it comes to mechanical things. 

What was the question again?

Barry


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> Experience comes from being scared......


I don't think I have ever been scared, Concerned, yes but not scared.


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## pdqaltair (Nov 14, 2008)

I think it boils down to relevance.

* If you are crossing an ocean, they should have several off-shore passages.
* If it is a delivery down the coast, they should be expert at coastal piloting (preferably in the area of interest) and jury rigging bad equipment.
* If you are looking at a boat to buy, look at stuff they have done on their own boat. Does it seem professional? Even people in the trade are good at some systems and poor at others. I am expert in some, average in many, and stink on eggs in a few.
* Racing a multi hull? Experience on small multi hulls is vital.

I am quite experienced in some areas, and not at all in others. Most sailor are like that, they are good at what they do a lot of.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

"Success teachers nothing" With that quote from Bill Gates in mind, experience coming from having things go wrong and learning from that.


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

A sailor who realizes they don't know it all.
Albert Einstein - “The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.”


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

My methodology was learning from others mistakes having sailed a lot on OPB's. The is not to say I consider myself an experienced sailor.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

jackdale said:


> "Success teaches nothing" With that quote from Bill Gates in mind, experience coming from having things go wrong and learning from that.


a corollary to this is: 'There's nothing like trying to teach something to make you realize how little you know'


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Faster said:


> a corollary to this is: 'There's nothing like trying to teach something to make you realize how little you know'


and

The best way to learn something is to teach it.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

Usually one who doesn't spend a lot of time trying to impress you w/ how experienced they are.
Jim


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Tomorrow I sail off by myself for 1,300mms crossing the gulf stream in contrary winds and they an area of 25to30 knot winds.

I will arrive at my destination.

Its the arriving that makes one experienced 

But it makes it easier when folks wish them well.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> ....
> 
> But it makes it easier when folks wish them well.


And so I most heartily wish you well!! Go safely!


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Maybe I should reform the question to: Do you consider yourself to be an experienced sailor and if so why?

Cheers


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

If you challenge someone to reveal how many miles they have in order to make yourself feel superior because you have more - you're obviously not experienced enough.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> If you challenge someone to reveal how many miles they have in order to make yourself feel superior because you have more - you're obviously not experienced enough.


That is not my motive and you may recall my comment on another thread coming to your defense with a similar post of your above quote and was the impetus of starting this thread. As I posted earlier I do not consider myself experienced and likely never will. I am curious as to what people's definition to what an experienced sailor might be. That is the sole and only objective of this thread.


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## donsboat (Feb 27, 2006)

One that can't swim and is still alive.


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## jerryrlitton (Oct 14, 2002)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Tomorrow I sail off by myself for 1,300mms crossing the gulf stream in contrary winds and they an area of 25to30 knot winds.
> 
> I will arrive at my destination.
> 
> ...


That's almost poetic.


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

I do not count myself experienced. I did once, and it made me a complacent fool.

Experience, particularly in it's early stages, can actually be dangerous. Knowing enough to think you know enough is arguably worse than knowing that you know nothing. 

Besides what Maine said. Our experience and experiences are all different.

Galileo once remarked" I have never met a man so ignorant I couldn't learn something from him".


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

One thing for sure, when reading advice here we all come from whatever our experience is. Circumnavigators think different than coastal sailors, coastal sailors think different than day sailors, long distance ocean racers think different than around the harbor racers, people who do their own work on a boat think different from people who hire help to do it, people who sail the trades think different from people who mostly sail in coastal light wind areas, people who have been out cruising for years think differently than those that get a few weeks a year to take off, etc., etc., etc....

I too have been offshore with boat owners who I wouldn't coastal sail with, because the tend to hit stuff. I've also been coastal sailing with folks I'll never again go offshore with. They don't view themselves as critical parts of the machine and have let me down when I need them to do watches. That said, I don't think of any of these categories of sailors as superior to others, just different. We can learn from each.

We all need to take and give advice in context. I could do better in this regard.


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## jfdubu (Jul 18, 2002)

I've been scared and put that into the experience bucket. Two times come to mind. Once I got caught in a squall with sails up and fought get them down. Had my young kids on the boat and a friend. Next time I "heard" the squall, couldn't see it but got the sails down and batten down the hatches. Good thing this squall had 70+ winds but I/we were ready. Still scared but experienced. The second time I hit a rock in my home waters. Now I'm experienced enough to read the charts even if I think I know where I am. I figure my experience bucket is just covering the bottom. 

John


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Experience occurs somewhere between setting a goal and actually accomplishing it. Sometimes you make it through unscathed, and not in others. If you want more experience, you need to set goals beyond what you've actually accomplished.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

When I took up sailing about ten years ago I was not experienced.

My dock neighbor had been sailing for years and was experienced. “If you have any questions, or want me to show you a few things, just ask. I am an experienced sailor and I can help you.” This wealth of information and epitome of sailing prowess never left the dock. On one occasion he did go out with another experienced sailor. They hit some gnarly weather. My neighbor curled up into a ball and literally whimpered until the boat was tied off safely at the dock.

So I continued sailing, often alone. I made a lot of mistakes and gained experience.

I found a group of really experienced sailors. They had all been sailing for many years in many environments. They shared their experience with me – offered pointers to improve my skills. I became a better sailor. I continued to gain experience. I applied the lessons I was taught and learned new ones by reading, talking to other experienced sailors and, most frequently, by making more mistakes.

My new sailing gurus are, in my opinion, very experienced sailors. I respect their opinions and most of the feedback they have given me has improved my abilities: made me more experienced. What they all have in common is that each of these ‘old salts’ discuss the mistakes we all make, dissect them, and use that knowledge to enhance their own experience.

Throughout my sailing experience I have taken quite a few courses in order to learn more. Last year one of my instructors recognized my experience and asked me to teach some of the sailing courses. I didn’t feel that I had the depth of experience to effectively teach the subjects but agreed to team-teach.

My students’ experience ranged from never-been-near-a-sailboat to skipping-or-crewing-on-blue-water-crossings.

Regardless of their level of experience each student enhanced my experience by sharing insight or offering a different paradigm to the things I already knew.

Now I have had a lot of experience. I have crewed on a crossing from Bermuda to Nova Scotia; I have crewed in the Greek Islands; I have certifications and have taught courses; I have sailed many miles both solo and short-handed.

A couple of years ago my brother picked up a small sailing dinghy. I had no experience in that type of boat. My brother had very little experience on large boats and was just learning how to sail the dinghy. His minimal experience was more than mine and he gave me some great lessons that enhanced my experience.

Every time I go out I learn something new. Something about the boat. Something about me.

Every time I talk to another sailor I learn something new.

I cannot imagine ever knowing or understanding everything there is to know about sailing.

So if anyone were to ask me if I was an experienced sailor, I would have to say “No. I’m a sailor with some experiences.”


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

flyingwelshman said:


> When I took up sailing about ten years ago I was not experienced.
> 
> My dock neighbor had been sailing for years and was experienced. "If you have any questions, or want me to show you a few things, just ask. I am an experienced sailor and I can help you." This wealth of information and epitome of sailing prowess never left the dock. On one occasion he did go out with another experienced sailor. They hit some gnarly weather. My neighbor curled up into a ball and literally whimpered until the boat was tied off safely at the dock.
> 
> ...


+1 to this, Maine and Minne. I'd add that, generally, the loudest mouths are the least 'experienced'. One of the things I've noticed in most instances, in all settings, is that the most controversial guy in the room may be the life of the party, but is often the one with the least actual knowledge. I've got over 30 years on the water in various small craft, some of it teaching, some for fun, and many other settings. But I've learned stuff from everyone, even if with some it's how NOT to do something.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I sat down one day and tried to list all the boats I have salied. I got through the one designs and development class boats then quit. I'll make a list of the big boats and one offs I have sailed later, some day, maybe.

Hi fly wind surfer 2 models
French wind surfer?
Windglider
El Toro
Sea Scouter
Penguin
Minto
Beetle catboat
Laser
Force 5
Tasar
Ok dinghy
Herrshoff Buzzards Bay boat
International 14
Thistle
Snipe
Geary 18
Lightning
Blanchard Jr.
Blanchard Sr.
Raven
Star
110
210
Etchels
Soling
Dragon
PC
6 meter
12 meter WEATHERLY
Cougar cat
Nacra class C cat
Hobie 16
F 27 tri


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> I cannot imagine ever knowing or understanding everything there is to know about sailing.
> 
> So if anyone were to ask me if I was an experienced sailor, I would have to say "No. I'm a sailor with some experiences."


My feelings exactly.



> I sat down one day and tried to list all the boats I have salied. I got through the one designs and development class boats then quit.


Bob, I'm not sure if you have the gravitas to post in this thread.:laugh


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Scott:
I suspect you are correct. I am a bit of a smart ass at times. You;ll get used to it. It's all in fun.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

ScottUK said:


> That is not my motive and you may recall my comment on another thread coming to your defense with a similar post of your above quote and was the impetus of starting this thread. As I posted earlier I do not consider myself experienced and likely never will. I am curious as to what people's definition to what an experienced sailor might be. That is the sole and only objective of this thread.


I wasn't referring to you, Scott. You made this thread to discuss it, you didn't bring it up in a conversation. So no worries at all.

My point is that if someone brings this question up in a heated conversation - they just make themselves look silly.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

I've been boating since I was old enough to nail old styrofoam dock blocks to a sheet of plywood and mount a tennis ball cannon to it. We used sticks for oars and our parents had NO idea what we did in the woods all day. When I got "old enough" my grandfather would let me row a skiff out to catch snappers from his old farm on the CT shore. By then I was old enough (probably 8 or so) so go out with my old man to night night fish in the Race, it was terrifying at times. No such thing as bottled water, I snuck a sip of beer here and there. I do consider myself an experienced boater.

I've only been sailing for about 18 years and DO NOT consider myself an experienced sailor. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know. It's odd that people that I sail with now sometimes ask me for advise. I'll admit, it's rare, but it has happened. Experience sort of sneaks up on you real gradual like.

Oh, and after nearly 20 years in the same old marina, some of the ancient geezers have started to give me a nod or even say good morning once or twice a season. Getting to know your neighbors in New England can take a generation or two of experience.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

If someone is taking a hard position on how to sail, asking if they've ever had any experience sailing, is a legit question. Same holds for cruising advice.

I also ask my doctor is he's ever done the surgery before, or just looked it up on the internet.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

For a skipper, I would say it is a person who can hop on any boat and be relaxed and confident that he/she can handle the vessel in any maneuver, under power or sail, in almost any conditions, but understanding that there are indeed limits when dealing with an unfamiliar vessel.
Someone who doesn't need to practice docking a boat they've never driven before or practice docking under sail, because they know if push comes to shove they can get the job done.
We all mess up, but the experienced sailor doesn't get frazzled or flustered, they just get on with the job, dealing with the event.
And most importantly, an experienced sailor does not blame anyone else for his screw ups. If the skipper can't get the boat close enough to the dock for the crew to step off safely, it is that skipper's fault, not the crew's. No yelling, blame laying or recriminations.
An experienced sailor takes responsibility for his/her actions, as captain or crew, period.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

As written above, experience is an open ended scale. It begins at inexperienced and goes infinity, never reaching totally experienced. There are very few people at the extreme limit (they are not found sitting around in marinas, BTW). Many in the middle. Where in the crowd one divides the inexperienced from the experienced is arbitrary. 

I would like to think I am an experienced sailor. But I cannot compare myself to many others far more experienced than myself. I think one steps over the line into experienced when throwing off the docklines for a voyage, or a day of serious racing, is done with confidence that everything will come out well. That all the situations that might develop, even the possible disasters, can be addressed adequately because one's skills and preparation have become 'second nature'.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> a day of serious racing, is done with confidence that everything will come out well. That all the situations that might develop, even the possible disasters, can be addressed adequately because one's skills and preparation have become 'second nature'.


Not so sure about that. I have done a fair bit of racing and can't count the number of times the boat I happened to be on that hit or was hit by another boat. Things happen despite preparation though I agree prep is good.


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## aloof (Dec 21, 2014)

ScottUK said:


> Not so sure about that. I have done a fair bit of racing and can't count the number of times the boat I happened to be on that hit or was hit by another boat. Things happen despite preparation though I agree prep is good.


That you are here posting indicates that your collisions were addressed reasonably well. Preparation and experience does not prevent all disasters, however it gives one the confidence and resources that cause the outcome to be as positive as possible.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I have done a lot of racing over the past 54 years and I have been in one serious collision. I have been in a few "nudges". I am very convinced that racing is by far the best way to learn to sail and sail safely.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> I am very convinced that racing is by far the best way to learn to sail and sail safely.


I agree. However in NZ racing can get quite aggressive.


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

The inverse is also true. Sailing without racing is far from the best way to learn to sail and sail safely.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> The inverse is also true. Sailing without racing is far from the best way to learn to sail and sail safely.


I agree with the sailing aspect but there are other skills needed for cruising.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Wow, I just posted for the 400th time. At this rate I'm going to catch up with Smack in 255 years- that is if he stops posting immediately.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I raced for years before I started cruising. I found the change easy. I had already anchored while racing. I knew how to cook and drink. I knew how to read a chart. I even knew how to read tidal current tables.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> I raced for years before I started cruising.


I was the opposite and was that ever a slap in the puss!


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

ScottUK said:


> Wow, I just posted for the 400th time. At this rate I'm going to catch up with Smack in 255 years- that is if he stops posting immediately.


That ain't happening.

Regarding racing- total neophyte in sailing racing, but have raced in almost every other endeavor that I've undertaken. I've heard this argument in all of them, and have found it to be false. It is possible that there is something inherently different about sailing, but I've yet to see it. I think all people learn things differently, and some may learn better or faster in a race, but not all. I also think some of this may be generational. My generation generally is less competitive and more valuing of vastly different things than the boomers. Same is true vis a vie the millennials.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> Regarding racing- total neophyte in sailing racing, but have raced in almost every other endeavor that I've undertaken. I've heard this argument in all of them, and have found it to be false.


I don't see how this determination can be made without the relevant experience.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

bobperry said:


> I raced for years before I started cruising. I found the change easy. I had already anchored while racing. I knew how to cook and drink. I knew how to read a chart. I even knew how to read tidal current tables.


Yea, but racing doesn't teach you how to have a boat full of non-sailors aboard and getting in your way, puking overboard, drinking all your booze and clogging the heads.

Actually, the ones that want to help, but don't know how are the worst. In one situation, I had a guest that stood on the side deck when my wife and I were casting off. I figured he could watch from there. In some wind conditions, I need to pivot off my aft fender, which this day required. My wife drops the lines, I apply a little throttle, the stern starts to head toward the dock and my guest thinks we're on our way. So he pulls in the fender!!


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

ScottUK said:


> I don't see how this determination can be made without the relevant experience.


You missed the next sentence. I generally put the required information in, and parsing it incorrectly does tend to change its meaning.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> Yea, but racing doesn't teach you how to have a boat full of non-sailors aboard and getting in your way, puking overboard, drinking all your booze and clogging the heads.


Maybe you should invite your friends instead.:laugh


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

ScottUK said:


> Maybe you should invite your friends instead.:laugh


Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> You missed the next sentence.


Don't think it necessarily applies if there is insufficient data.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Why do people think that racers only race their boats? What a silly notion.

There is lots of racing in the PNW and there are great islands for cruising. All the racers I have known have used the boats for racing and cruising. It's just what you do here. Getting your race boat to the next regatta location often becomes a leisurely cruise. If the race starts in Victoria, BC why not leave five days early and have some fun getting there? This is common. Or the race/regatta is over then why not take a week getting back to Seattle and have some fun? Even people sailing one designs often charter or borrow boats and enjoy some cruising.

I'm sticking to my guns on this. I know it makes non racers all defensive but so be it. If you want to learn how to get the very most out of your boat in all conditions and do it safely and easily, learn to race. You will learn the limits of your boat. You will, learn the potential of your boat. You will be a better sailor for it and cruising will be even more fun.

Two years ago my Australian buddy and I volunteered to crew on a Baba 35, pilot house model in the "Race Your House" regatta for live aboards. It was a very eclectic fleet. We were lucky and had brand new Carol Hasse sails. I drove and my buddy did tactics and sail trim. The owner watched and mucked in when he could. He quickly got caught up in the competition. He loved it. His wife sat in the PH terrified but in time she relaxed and took care of navigation chores. She got into it too. We did extremely well, 2nd in class, and surprised many people with more modern, fin keel designs. We pushed the boat very hard finally letting the owner roll up some genoa when the rail started going under. We humored him. At the end of the race the owner remarked that he never knew his boat could be sailed that hard and he felt a lot better about his boat now.

If you don't want to race I think that's fine too. Fun is fun.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

ScottUK said:


> Don't think it necessarily applies if there is insufficient data.


Interesting. So what is so different about racing on a sailboat from any other type of racing? Say, ski racing or cycle racing? As far as I can tell, they're all about honing repeated movements and judgements at a faster pace. I've experienced the same misguided statements (you're not a real skier unless you race) as in sailing, and have found them to be bollocks.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

bobperry said:


> Why do people think that racers only race their boats? What a silly notion.
> 
> I'm sticking to my guns on this. I know it makes non racers all defensive but so be it. If you want to learn how to get the very most out of your boat in all conditions and do it safely and easily, learn to race. You will learn the limits of your boat. You will, learn the potential of your boat. You will be a better sailor for it and cruising will be even more fun.


I think this is where we get in trouble- not at all what I said.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I think this is where we get in trouble- not at all what I said."

Who is this "we" you speak of?

I made a general statement. I'll stand by it.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Sorry- thought you were responding to me. My mistake.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> So what is so different about racing on a sailboat from any other type of racing?


I think Bob has just answered your query.

I have ski raced and although I have never raced my bikes, I have toured on my bike extensively in Europe and the States.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

ScottUK said:


> I think Bob has just answered your query.
> 
> I have ski raced and although I have never raced my bikes, I have toured on my bike extensively in Europe and the States.


No, I don't think he did. And neither did you. If you've ski raced- what is different? It is repetitive movements, honed for specific situations. Some of the best skiers I know (some pros) never raced. Some did, but unless you're bashing gates, it doesn't necessarily make you better. Some of the racers (very good ones) can't ski broken terrain. That's my point. One way of learning is not the only or superior one.
FWIW- neophyte means for me, that I wouldn't define myself as a racer, not that I've never done it.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Lots of ways you can get good at something.
Racing hones the skills.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

Bob has touched on a number of attributes that racing will teach you. For example getting the most out your boat which is difficult to know unless you measure yourself against another who is actively racing. Learning to operate your boat in close proximity to others. Having to go out in less than ideal conditions because you have committed. These are a few of the main ones but there are many more that a better qualified person could explain. I never said I was an expert but was gobsmacked at how little I knew despite having sailed thousands of miles including crossing the Med and some bluewater deliveries.

Just because I said I have ski raced does not mean I agree with your comparison. 

I think you should give it go and then you can make the determination for yourself with an appropriate knowledge base.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

ScottUK said:


> Bob has touched on a number of attributes that racing will teach you. For example getting the most out your boat which is difficult to know unless you measure yourself against another who is actively racing. Learning to operate your boat in close proximity to others. Having to go out in less than ideal conditions because you have committed. These are a few of the main ones but there are many more that a better qualified person could explain. I never said I was an expert but was gobsmacked at how little I knew despite having sailed thousands of miles including crossing the Med and some bluewater deliveries.
> 
> Just because I said I have ski raced does not mean I agree with your comparison.
> 
> I think you should give it go and then you can make the determination for yourself with an appropriate knowledge base.


You are assuming I haven't. See my above FWIW. I just disagree that competing is THE BEST or only way to learn these things. People learn differently. I learned some from racing boats the times I have, but not nearly as much as I have when I've been caught out or just messing around trying to push the limits on noncompetitive sails. The ski racing thing was just an analogy.
But compared to Jeff or Caleb or Bob, I'm a neophyte.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> You are assuming I haven't.


You called yourself a neophyte and by definition that means having no experience and so was not an assumption. If you have raced before you are not a neophyte.

To me it seems your disdain for competition is misplaced. To me competition will likely make a person better. It is the needing to win that is unworthy.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Seems to me that every time I go sailing it's a new learning experience. "Let's see how this works." Being alongside another boat that you know well can really help you evaluate your small changes quickly.
" Well, that sure as hell didn't work."


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> Well, that sure as hell didn't work


Well that aptly describes my all experiences racing!


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## sharkbait (Jun 3, 2003)

1


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

I think you're adding value to my statements that isn't there. I've no disdain for racing or competition, I just don't think they inherently make you better or learn. Some people will learn that way, some won't. Some learn better by instruction, some by experience. If I have disdain for anything is the person that says "only racers are real sailors/skiers/etc" or " you'll never learn unless..." It just doesn't work that way.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

It's like pornography. You can't define it, but you know it when you see it.


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## Bleemus (Oct 13, 2015)

Jimi Hendrix used to ask me if I was all the time. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

I think a racer can tell if another sailor has ever done any racing the moment he steps aboard the guy's boat or very shortly there after. Certainly once the sails are up. People may not like to here it but that does not make it not true. Because I have done a lot of racing and designed a lot of cruising boats my own experience crosses into both camps.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

I think this is true. It has nothing to do with if you learned what you know from racing or not. Sometimes you know from all the racing specific crap laying around.


bobperry said:


> I think a racer can tell if another sailor has ever done any racing the moment he steps aboard the guy's boat or very shortly there after. Certainly once the sails are up. People may not like to here it but that does not make it not true. Because I have done a lot of racing and designed a lot of cruising boats my own experience crosses into both camps.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

What exactly is "racing specific crap"?

Having owned racing and cruising boats I can't figure out what this "crap" could be. I would have the same stuff on either boat.


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## XSrcing (Aug 22, 2015)

Fancy Cuben fiber sails?


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

bobperry said:


> What exactly is "racing specific crap"?
> 
> Having owned racing and cruising boats I can't figure out what this "crap" could be. I would have the same stuff on either boat.


Usually the harken or north sails shirts w their boat name on them. But I was sort of kidding.


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

Boy, now you are stretching.(pun intended) I have never had those on any of my racing boats. I have actually never seen any in person. You use an extreme example and you bias is showing.

If you were fortunate enough to have the money for Cuben sails you would also have the money for a crack crew who would have had that sail flaked, bagged and stowed before you even hit the dock.


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## NCC320 (Dec 23, 2008)

Experience is gained in many ways, so there is not set answer to what is an experienced sailor. But take care when people start talking about being an experienced sailor. Most of the time, when they resort to that term, they are trying to impress you in some way and resort to their experience to prove that they know better than you or others in some situation or point of discussion. Or they are trying to convince you to do something because this is the way experienced sailors do it....example, boat was owned by an experienced sailor, i.e. you should buy this boat because "experienced sailor...more experienced than you, owned it" and somehow if you buy, you'll become experienced in broker's bs and he gets a fee from the sale. Another situation where people use the term that they are experienced sailor is when they want to put you down as being inexperienced. You can be an experienced sailor and be lousy at sailing, or you can be relatively new and be a better sailor than the experienced guy. Watch what one does, consider carefully what they say, and usually you can determine who is experienced in the sense that here is someone I can learn from or whose recommendations I should carefully consider. And on forums like this, be careful, some are bs experts, so it's sometimes a little hard at first to separate bs from good information. Don't worry too much about qualifying as "experienced sailor", just go sailing, enjoy it, and in time, without doing anything special, the inexperienced sailor becomes an experienced sailor. One won't even know when he makes the transition.


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## XSrcing (Aug 22, 2015)

I think we should be thinking in terms of capabilities. "What constitutes a capable sailor?"


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## SSgtPit (Nov 14, 2015)

I'm more experienced today than i was yesterday. I have one 6 day 700+nm trip. I am WAY more experienced after that trip. I just sucked out my holding tank for the first time. I now know what that odd smell was down below. I am now more experienced in odd smells and sucking out holding tanks. I drilled out a rusty bilge pump check valve and reset the flapper with a cotter pin and a roll of elect tape at a dock on the MS River. I'm now more experienced in why my bilge kept filling up w water and mosquitoes after the sun sets. I've put the rails in the water under full sails, i'm now more experienced in crapping my pants


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## bobperry (Apr 29, 2011)

On my Esprit 37 I had to suck siphon the shower drain. But almost all the time I was by myself so no one saw me. So it really didn't count. And it was MY shower water.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

ncc320 said:


> experience is gained in many ways, so there is not set answer to what is an experienced sailor. But take care when people start talking about being an experienced sailor. Most of the time, when they resort to that term, they are trying to impress you in some way and resort to their experience to prove that they know better than you or others in some situation or point of discussion. Or they are trying to convince you to do something because this is the way experienced sailors do it....example, boat was owned by an experienced sailor, i.e. You should buy this boat because "experienced sailor...more experienced than you, owned it" and somehow if you buy, you'll become experienced in broker's bs and he gets a fee from the sale. Another situation where people use the term that they are experienced sailor is when they want to put you down as being inexperienced. You can be an experienced sailor and be lousy at sailing, or you can be relatively new and be a better sailor than the experienced guy. Watch what one does, consider carefully what they say, and usually you can determine who is experienced in the sense that here is someone i can learn from or whose recommendations i should carefully consider. And on forums like this, be careful, some are bs experts, so it's sometimes a little hard at first to separate bs from good information. Don't worry too much about qualifying as "experienced sailor", just go sailing, enjoy it, and in time, without doing anything special, the inexperienced sailor becomes an experienced sailor. One won't even know when he makes the transition.


+1


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Agree racing teaches you to sail but would note it doesn't teach you how to cruise.

Have had several racers ( world traveling J boat racers and rock stars). They are great on watch and you learn from them. But for cruising skills - boat handling, fixing things, taking care of the boat, and themselves on passage, maintenance, provisioning, dealing with authorities, finding sources for boat stuff at reasonable cost in out of the way places etc. not so much. They can be a real PIA on land and in interacting with other crew. Personally have been hugely lucky with few exceptions the die hard racers who have crewed for me knew it was two different skill sets and were delightful crew and anxious to learn cruising skills.

Sailing and cruising are different skill sets. You can be great at sailing the boat but a washout at cruising. The contra positive is true as well.

When you say "sailor" which do you mean?


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## sharkbait (Jun 3, 2003)

1


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Racing clearly makes one better in tune with maneuvering the boat and maximizing performance. No question.

Cruising is just a much broader thing, which may or may not require maximum performance. The argument that racers learn cruising, while moving their boats from place to place, may be true. However, that's simply because the relocation was indeed cruising, not racing.

Spending a year on the foredeck of a racing boat, won't teach one much about cruising. Spending a year cruising, won't teach one much about racing.

I've also had experienced racers aboard and find they will often over tweak in some cases and give up VMG. For example, I see my boat making 8.5 thru the water and know that's a pretty good speed for the conditions, even though something doesn't look perfect, I wait it out. I have a buddy that would tweak, drop to 8.3, back to 8.7, fall off and grab a few tenths in the water, but lose VMG, etc, etc. I just let him do it, as it makes him happy. In the end, keeping the 8.5 was probably faster.


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## jimrafford (Jan 7, 2011)

I have a friend that is a very experienced racer. 40 years in the cockpit. Absolutely looses his mind when he can't see land.
Jim


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

bobperry said:


> On my Esprit 37 I had to suck siphon the shower drain. But *almost* all the time I was by myself so no one saw me. So it really didn't count. And it was MY shower water.


Things that make you go hmmm 

"Why are you sucking on that tube?"
"Honey, you're so hot I'd drink your bathwater"

:sailing-pilgrims:


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I guess I must be an experienced sailor, lots of miles under keel, and I've only broken a couple ribs and I'm still alive. Does that count? 

Gary


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

travlineasy said:


> I guess I must be an experienced sailor, lots of miles under keel, and I've only broken a couple ribs and I'm still alive. Does that count?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Counts as far as I'm concerned.


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## nolatom (Jun 29, 2005)

XSrcing said:


> I think we should be thinking in terms of capabilities. "What constitutes a capable sailor?"


Makes sense. There's good experience, and bad experience. Having lots of the latter may not produce someone you want to sail with.

But if we switch now, it may cost a couple hundred more responses ;-)


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

To paraphrase Einstein

"The more experience you have, the more you realize you need more."

But the thing I think about the Einstein quote of the more he learns the more he doesn't... lot of humility there because Albert knew a lot.. and of course, everything I read indicates he wasn't much of a sailor


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

:laughhttp://www.saranaclake.com/files/images/albert_einstein.jpg

Yea, you know general relativity, anyone can do that, but as anyone on this site knows, being a great sailor...now that's an accomplishment!


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

The local lore is Einstein flipped his boat (Tinef) and one time was tangled up and saved by a boy

https://localwiki.org/hsl/Albert_Einstein

Don Duso, just passed away two years ago


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

titustiger27 said:


> The local lore is Einstein flipped his boat (Tinef) and one time was tangled up and saved but a boy
> 
> https://localwiki.org/hsl/Albert_Einstein


Probably encountered a gravitational wave.:wink


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

capecodda said:


> Probably encountered a gravitational wave.:wink


actually he was nearing the speed of light and time slowed down.. but gravity didn't


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Yea, but racing doesn't teach you how to have a boat full of non-sailors aboard and getting in your way, puking overboard, drinking all your booze and clogging the heads.





ScottUK said:


> Maybe you should invite your friends instead.:laugh


Yeah, it sounds like you're inviting _my_ friends!

I've never formally raced, but I've found that I learn the most about sail trim when someone is about to pass me.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

"Einstein wasn't much of a sailor."

Maybe that's true. But at least he mucked about in boats. :svoilier:


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

flyingwelshman said:


> "Einstein wasn't much of a sailor."
> 
> Maybe that's true. But at least he mucked about in boats. :svoilier:


agree, the little gif I posted before is suppose to be Einstein in his boat

He is likely to have been better than I, though no one had to save my life yet....


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## chall03 (Oct 14, 2002)

Below is a video of some of the most experienced sailors in the world, the elite of the elite, well funded and armed with the best technology available, competing in a world renowned key sailing event.

It says enough I think.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

flyingwelshman said:


> "Einstein wasn't much of a sailor."
> 
> Maybe that's true. But at least he mucked about in boats. :svoilier:


If he could have just learned to trim his sails better and picked up a couple more knots - he wouldn't have aged so quickly.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

smackdaddy said:


> If he could have just learned to trim his sails better and picked up a couple more knots - he wouldn't have aged so quickly.


Age is relative.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

flyingwelshman said:


> Age is relative.


..is that your theory? ..


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Faster said:


> ..is that your theory? ..


I'm supporting the welshman on this one. At my age, I gotta hang on to something.


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## titustiger27 (Jan 17, 2013)

you would think the guy who knew about action-angle variables, could sail better

_
*even more off topic*... Big Bang Theory by Simon Singh is a great book_


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## Arlo (Apr 12, 2014)

There once was a fellow named Bright
Who could sail much faster than light
He left port one day
In a relative way
And arrived back the previous night


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

The faster you go, the slower time goes. Sail fast to stay young!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Just goes to show you that not knowing a reef from a Cauchy boundary can be unstabllizing


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

I just waded through this whole thread - am amazed by the collective centuries of sailing time with enough sea miles to go to the moon and back and still nobody wants to admit to being "experienced". Perhaps it is a fear of tempting fate. Perhaps it's a touch of false modesty.

My experience matters only to me. I don't care too much for what others think of my experience. If they think it's inadequate then they should go sailing elsewhere, they don't need to sail with an inexperienced dummy like me.

But I have crossed oceans both on my own and with my family. I grew up sailing up and down one of the most hostile coastlines in the world. I have raced both on my own boats and on those of others. I have sailed with the trades, against the trades and have weathered an open-ocean storm of sustained 80 knots. And I have cruised some of the most idyllic spots in the world.

And I'm getting ready to do it all again. And I'm not at all nervous because my experience (oh $hit, there's that provocative word again) has shown me so far that I can and will survive most things.

I believe I'm experienced. There! I have said it. It's not a boast - it's a statement of fact. And just because there are a lot of things to which I have not been exposed, it doesn't render me inexperienced. Nobody in any sphere of endeavour has experienced _everything_ and that is not a definition of "experienced".

To the dominant number of posts above, this admission appears to be a rash over-estimation of my value on a boat. If that's what you think of yourself, you're probably right.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I've experienced everything, except what is going to happen next.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

Omatako said:


> I just waded through this whole thread - am amazed by the collective centuries of sailing time with enough sea miles to go to the moon and back and still nobody wants to admit to being "experienced". Perhaps it is a fear of tempting fate. Perhaps it's a touch of false modesty.
> 
> My experience matters only to me. I don't care too much for what others think of my experience. If they think it's inadequate then they should go sailing elsewhere, they don't need to sail with an inexperienced dummy like me.
> 
> ...


See now, I would call you an 'experienced' sailor. Me, on the other hand - even with my experiences, and with no false humility - still feel new at this.

Sent from my SM-G386W using Tapatalk


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

MedSailor said:


> The faster you go, the slower time goes. Sail fast to stay young!
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


Someone's been watching Interstellar. 

Sent from my SM-G386W using Tapatalk


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

I have a guy that just joined our boating club, who has written a full page resume on his boating experience. Included in it is this

"*General understanding of boat main systems:* Operating jib and main sails, pulley systems, performing tacking, single-bow anchoring, general steering and navigation, operating and maintenance of diesel engines."

Can anyone guess why I have not given him the combo to the boat yet?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

O- the statement it depends where you're sitting is spot on. In the last year I've sat and broke bread at:

OCC social function. Everyone has done their obligate 1k. Most have crossed several different oceans. Most have over 50k of ocean miles and have weathered multiple storms. I'm inexperienced.
SDR dinner. Everyone got there. Many have done the trip a half a dozen times or more. For some it's the first trip. I'm of average experience. 
Marina sponsored dinner. Most are coastal. Few are live aboards. Few wander past home waters. I'm experienced.

Think there is a reluctance to declare experience not due to tempting fate but due to growth. Personally, know having been in gales and storms doesn't mean I have a get home free pass for the next one. Know once I have done something I'm curious do build on it and go one step further. So I'm always inexperienced about the next thing coming. 

Also we age. I've stood watch for two days in a storm due to incapacitation of other crew. I know I likely can't do that now. Need to rethink how to handle that. Now would use JSD. Don't have the strength nor endurance I had so need to rethink many things. Aging creates new issues and I'm inexperienced in handling them. That attitude keeps you safe and sharp. Been there, done that doesn't for me. Therefore no hubris on a boat.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

jephotog said:


> "*General understanding of boat main systems:* Operating jib and main sails, pulley systems,


I think I understand now he learned to sail from this video


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

jephotog said:


> I have a guy that just joined our boating club, who has written a full page resume on his boating experience. Included in it is this
> 
> "*General understanding of boat main systems:* Operating jib and main sails,* pulley systems*, performing tacking, single-bow anchoring, general steering and navigation, operating and maintenance of diesel engines."
> 
> Can anyone guess why I have not given him the combo to the boat yet?


"Performing tacking." Putting such low level stuff like that on your resume is like saying, "able to operate computer's power button, keyboard, AND mouse."

Pulley systems? Fail!

MedSailor


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Med,

as far as I'm concerned, operating an on board sauna is the number one test of experience.

You win this one buddy!


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm experienced, ...................................................................... been drinking for over 30 years!!!


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> I believe I'm experienced. There!


Don't have to convince me Andre. Hope all is well with you, Linda and the new digs. I sure am missing NZ about now.

Cheers

Scott


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

MedSailor said:


> "Performing tacking." Putting such low level stuff like that on your resume is like saying, "able to operate computer's power button, keyboard, AND mouse."
> 
> Pulley systems? Fail!
> 
> MedSailor


His resume is actually a full page long but from what i can tell is he is a drinking buddy of another member of the club. He has been out "drinking, I means sailing" with him "numerous times." and feels qualified to sail the boat on his own. I have told him he needs to show me his favorite pulley on the boat or get checked out by a club manager before he gets the combination to the boat.

I feel to be a pretty experienced sailor but have a whole world, literally of more experiences ahead of me. There is always something to learn.

I was once on a race offshore on a boat in retrospect insufficient for the conditions. When our mainsail blew out in the middle of the night we had to limp into the harbor and none of the crew of "experienced" racers was sure what side we were supposed to pass the red buoy on. This shows me just how many levels and layers and variations there are to sailing. Either that or I was sailing with a bunch of idiots that night.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

capecodda said:


> Med,
> 
> as far as I'm concerned, operating an on board sauna is the number one test of experience.
> 
> You win this one buddy!


Indeed I've seen many a boat-sauna newbie make some silly mistakes. Selecting the wrong species of eucalyptus for flogging for example easily pegs you as inexperienced.

:laugh


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

MedSailor said:


> Indeed I've seen many a boat-sauna newbie make some silly mistakes. Selecting the wrong species of eucalyptus for flogging for example easily pegs you as inexperienced.
> 
> :laugh


I have heard speak of this sauna but have you shared any photos? I want photos so I can figure out how I may fit one on my Potter. It's on my to do list right after the bow thruster.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Enough faint praise makes an impressive dull roar.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

I have gages and can sometimes fix the beer chiller.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

jephotog said:


> I have heard speak of this sauna but have you shared any photos? I want photos....


Be careful what you wish for. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

outbound said:


> Think there is a reluctance to declare experience not due to tempting fate but due to growth. Personally, know having been in gales and storms doesn't mean I have a get home free pass for the next one.


There are no free passes but Eric Hiscock in one of his books said something to the effect that no sailor deliberately chooses to put himself in danger (storm) but if he survives he is much stronger for the experience.



outbound said:


> Know once I have done something I'm curious do build on it and go one step further. So I'm always inexperienced about the next thing coming.


So you are often experienced about the next thing to come. If you have survived a serious storm the next one (if there is one) will not be anywhere near as scary and your earlier experience will allow you to deal with it more effectively. So you should say "I'm sometimes inexperienced about the next thing to come". One thing I do know - I'm not looking forward building on my last open-ocean 80kn blow.

Someone (I think the OP) said in an earlier thread "I've never been scared". Well I have been scared $hitless and survived - I'll not be as scared next time.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

ScottUK said:


> Don't have to convince me Andre. Hope all is well with you, Linda and the new digs. I sure am missing NZ about now.
> 
> Scott


Hey Scott, we're all well - retiring 23rd December - can't wait. We've sold the house on Waiheke and are moving to Bay of Islands to our cottage 15th December to get ready for our first cruise to the islands (Fiji).

When next you guys find yourselves back in NZ be sure to look us up. You'll probably always find me here.

Sorry for thread hijack.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> - retiring 23rd December


Good on you Andre.

Not sure when we will be back to NZ but will eventually so will take you up on your offer. Too many places to yet explore.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

Omatako said:


> outbound said:
> 
> 
> > Think there is a reluctance to declare experience not due to tempting fate but due to growth. Personally, know having been in gales and storms doesn't mean I have a get home free pass for the next one.
> ...


If you aren't scared at some point, you either aren't pushing or you're not intelligent enough to recognize your predicament


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Andre you are an experienced sailor. Wish you would post more. Our differences are more of temperament and not of substance as a read your posts and can see the wisdom. My view allows me to stay focused and do the "what ifs" before settling out. You're right my experience has made the "what if" list longer.
But clearly there is merit in "I've done this before, I can do it again ". 
Best of luck on retirement. Wife was worried about me when I retired. Would put in the long hours to the exclusion of much else when working. She was worried I'd be bored. But it's been great so far. Sure you will look back and wish you could have retired earlier.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

outbound said:


> Agree racing teaches you to sail but would note it doesn't teach you how to cruise.


When I bought my first 'big' boat to set off on a circumnavigation, all I'd ever done was race. As foredeck crew on various boats including 7 very successful seasons on a T-bird in Frisco Bay, I chose a Phil Rhodes TransPac racer. 23 bags of sails and a mast that barely fit under the GG Bridge. Fast, yes, reef points, no.
What a ludicrous cruising boat. She'd sailed the TransPac with a dozen men and it was a bit more boat than my wife and I could handle comfortably, though only 49 feet!
In Hawaii I traded her for an old 65' Wm. Hand gaff ketch and as we sailed the islands in preparation for the sail south, we learned the joys of reefing. What a truly amazing difference it was not to have the rail buried and everything stressed to the max.
It wasn't the type of sailing that determined my level of experience; it was the type of boat I was sailing on. There are plenty of days when I want to push our boat as fast as she'll go, even though we're not racing, but using reefing instead of multiple sail changes, sure makes it easier, safer, more comfortable and a lot more fun.
I meet a few down here every year who are former racers and they have chosen their boats by their experience (as did I) and a great number realize their mistake way too late.
I'd think it fair to say that former racers can adjust to cruising a lot more easily that the other way around. Balls to the walls sailing just can't be something a cruiser finds comfortable.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> If you aren't scared at some point, you either aren't pushing or you're not intelligent enough to recognize your predicament


The number of reasons for fear or lack of fear are likely unqauntifiable so an either/or proposition would appear to me overly simplified.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

ScottUK said:


> The number of reasons for fear or lack of fear are likely unqauntifiable so an either/or proposition would appear to me overly simplified.


I (and behavioral science) would disagree. Everyone has a comfort envelope (in every venue), and stressors (fear starters) can and should be both identified and quantified so that you can intelligently deal with them (ideally at the time, but sometimes in a debrief later). I suppose a third situation of being willfully ignorant could be added.


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## XSrcing (Aug 22, 2015)

Experience means nothing more than you survived the ordeal and is a potential indicator to your capabilities as a sailor. 

I've manned the grinder on America II in 25-30 knots trades in Hawaii. We didn't sink. I now have experience sailing an America's Cup boat. Does that mean I have the capability to man one during a race? Hell no.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> I (and behavioral science) would disagree.


You might but I would doubt of unanimity in what is a subjective science. I would have to wonder where you found your unanimous consensus. Further, I have a difficult time to envisage an argument against the generality in my post versus the duality proposed in your post and this especially so in the social (soft) sciences.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Usually life's adventures add up over time and can be accounted as 'experience'. This is good, generally. Comes to mind though ,several sailors I know.whose CV's would indicate a certain competence .One, who is known locally as Captain Black Cloud has survived thru sheer luck a career of mishaps .The wonder is that he hasn't killed anyone yet. His own renditions of major screwups show no sign of awareness of fault or shortcomings. And of course,it's not my position to be judgemental. Another,who had every every rule book memorized to quotable and was in a position of authority in the Dept of Transport was known as Captain Crunch for his absolutely complete inability to manuever his vessel . Now, I'd be nearly the first to admit haw easy it is to make an error and hopefully apply the learning to my 'experienced'. but one thing I've learned is that self praise is faint praise and it's everywhere.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

ScottUK said:


> You might but I would doubt of unanimity in what is a subjective science. I would have to wonder where you found your unanimous consensus. Further, I have a difficult time to envisage an argument against the generality in my post versus the duality proposed in your post and this especially so in the social (soft) sciences.


Even the hard sciences have their dissenters. "The beauty of science is that it IS, regardless of if you choose to believe it or not." Niel deGrasse Tyson.

EDIT- I decided that, rather than being pithy, I'd see if this was a real query. To wit- there is a large body of data regarding both education theory and behavioral science that posits, and has decent data in an admittedly unclear area of biology that has clear MRI, Functional MRI, PET scanning and behavioral observational studies as well as retrospective studies looking at these questions. The overwhelmingly accepted data at this point is that humans have comfort envelopes that are experientially driven and reflexive. As you get outside of your envelope, you either realize it and are uncomfortable (afraid) or you don't and you aren't. I have trouble coming up with something on a boat where you would be outside your envelope, should be uncomfortable, but aren't, that would not meet my binary or amended trinary statement above.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

XSrcing said:


> Experience means nothing more than you survived the ordeal and is a potential indicator to your capabilities as a sailor.
> 
> I've manned the grinder on America II in 25-30 knots trades in Hawaii. We didn't sink. I now have experience sailing an America's Cup boat. Does that mean I have the capability to man one during a race? Hell no.


Maybe you do, maybe not, but I'm jealous


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> I have trouble coming up with something on a boat where you would be outside your envelope, should be uncomfortable, but aren't


Whatever standard to determine this would be arbitrary -not aware of any set of laws of social behaviour. If these criteria were standardised then social science would be more formulaic and not have constantly evolving multiple theoretical approaches that reinterprets the data rather than building on it like is found more in the harder sciences.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Omatako said:


> I just waded through this whole thread - am amazed by the collective centuries of sailing time with enough sea miles to go to the moon and back and still nobody wants to admit to being "experienced". Perhaps it is a fear of tempting fate. Perhaps it's a touch of false modesty.
> 
> My experience matters only to me. I don't care too much for what others think of my experience. If they think it's inadequate then they should go sailing elsewhere, they don't need to sail with an inexperienced dummy like me.
> 
> ...


Freakin' bingo.

I think the bottom line is that if you start thinking "experience" equals "superior" - you're doing it wrong.


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## ScottUK (Aug 16, 2009)

> I think the bottom line is that if you start thinking "experience" equals "superior" - you're doing it wrong.


I think competency would be preferred over 'experience' but then how would being competent be defined. Don't think this thread has gotten us any closer.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jephotog said:


> I think I understand now he learned to sail from this video


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

ScottUK said:


> Whatever standard to determine this would be arbitrary -not aware of any set of laws of social behaviour. If these criteria were standardised then social science would be more formulaic and not have constantly evolving multiple theoretical approaches that reinterprets the data rather than building on it like is found more in the harder sciences.


I think we have a different idea of what "hard science" is. The "constantly evolving multiple theoretical approaches that reinterprets the data rather than building on it" is pretty much how physics, biology, chemistry, neurobiology, etc. all started out. I think we are just in the infancy of a far more complex scientific system. Either way, you can be the naysayer to it if you so choose. People don't believe in the Theory of Evolution, or the Theory of Relativity, or the Laws of Physics (which are just theories with a bit more data). Doesn't change that the data, currently, doesn't support you. And throwing your hands up in the air and saying it's too complex isn't a great way to learn from what has happened. Another similar way to look at it- Fear is just the human interpretation of foreign experience. If you gather more experience that doesn't result in your death, you fear similar experiences less. The ability to identify and process WHY you experienced fear allows you to mitigate it faster, avoid reproducing things that ARE dangerous to your existence, and thusly informed forethought allows you to alter either your actions or potential reactions to produce a less dangerous and less uncomfortable (fear producing) outcome. But if you're not pushing yourself into new territory, you won't feel fear (discomfort). If you do and you don't, you either aren't hardwired like a human (which is, admittedly something I didn't consider previously- you could be an Alien  ) or you don't realize you ARE outside your experience zone, which is far more concerning for anyone around you or your crew, and usually is a display of either severe lack of insight or intelligence, or potentially both. Hence my above statement. Fairly routine for my toddlers, but generally not so in Captains.  FWIW, I bet you and I agree on the 30,000 foot view of this and it's the details and the science where our disagreement is.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Scott
I'm a neurologist. I have prior degrees in psychology, biology and training as an engineer. But as a neurologist I can tell you what Seaner is referring to is straight simple fact. 
You get scared a fixed set of events occur. Your limbic circuitry is pretty much the same as others.t
There is variability but it more relates to what the subject brings to the situation I.e. Preconditioning, physical state etc. there's also variability in how people modulate the fear response. Some yell OMG others get on with it. The same person to the same threat may do one or the other depending on when the event occurs and issues of preconditioning ( training, experience both good and traumatic etc.) and current physical and psychological state ( anxious about other events, state of health etc.).
But in terms of neurophysiology and secondary effects ( cardiopulmonary, hormonal, GU, GI etc.) there is little variability. 
Brain has the consistency of week old Jello but there is nothing soft about the science. Freud trained and practiced as a neurologist. His first series of publications were about peripheral neuropathy. Still, at the end of interpretation of dreams he said his psychological theory would be superseded and disappear once neurology advanced sufficiently. We are slowly getting there.

Remember fear is good. Being scared if handled well is good too. You are sharper,stronger and have more endurance. Lack of fear is bad:
There are old sailors
Bold sailors
But few old bold sailors.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

outbound said:


> Agree racing teaches you to sail but would note it doesn't teach you how to cruise.


I think this is precisely wrong. Racing teaches you how to get the most out of a boat and your crew in ALL conditions. It allows you to understand the limits and limitations of the boat and yourself and those on board. And, especially offshore racing teaches you how to work as a team for days on end and to pay attention to every aspect of what's going on from navigation to speed/trim/VMG to heavy weather tactics to safety to tactics...you name it.

Every single aspect of offshore racing makes you a better cruiser - no question. It is far easier to dial things back and get into cruising mode than to be unaware of what to do when you need to dial it up as a cruiser whose never experienced these things.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Only on sailnet can you find a single thread the encompasses the newtonian physics, relativity, neurology, social science, cruising vs. racing, and saunas while simultaneously supporting a clash of egos comparing sailing experience.

It this a great message board or what!


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

ScottUK said:


> I think competency would be preferred over 'experience' but then how would being competent be defined. Don't think this thread has gotten us any closer.


Yeah - I think competency is a much better term. Because it is certainly possible to garner a good deal experience - but still be incompetent. Hell, I'm proof of that.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> I think this is precisely wrong. Racing teaches you how to get the most out of a boat and your crew in ALL conditions. It allows you to understand the limits and limitations of the boat and yourself and those on board. And, especially offshore racing teaches you how to work as a team for days on end and to pay attention to every aspect of what's going on from navigation to speed/trim/VMG to heavy weather tactics to safety to tactics...you name it.
> 
> Every single aspect of offshore racing makes you a better cruiser - no question. It is far easier to dial things back and get into cruising mode than to be unaware of what to do when you need to dial it up as a cruiser whose never experienced these things.


At the risk of setting off another pissing match, I'll reiterate- Racing MAY teach you this, but only if you are the type to learn from that environment. You could, and people have, learn all of the above without ever entering a race. Some of them may actually have learned the above faster and more thoroughly without racing. So, race if you want to, but just because you race doesn't inherently make you a better sailor. The converse is also true, BTW.


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## seaner97 (May 15, 2011)

smackdaddy said:


> Yeah - I think competency is a much better term. Because it is certainly possible to garner a good deal experience - but still be incompetent. Hell, I'm proof of that.


Competency is something that everyone in education (which is what we are all really talking about here- learning a skillset that would make us masters of it) has trouble with. You have those that "know it when I see it", those that think it "can be tested" either by multiple guess or written exams, and various other evaluation schema. All of them essentially have a governing body (Texas Board of Ed, American Board of Internal Medicine, etc.) who have arbitrarily defined a body of knowledge that you MUST be versed in, plus or minus some practical experience chits to get to certain levels. But anyone who has been through them will tell you that there are people that come out the other end that are fully certified and completely incompetent. When you figure that one out, please let the rest of the human race in on the secret.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

smackdaddy said:


> Yeah - I think competency is a much better term. Because it is certainly possible to garner a good deal experience - but still be incompetent. Hell, I'm proof of that.


Competency isn't a given even for those that have shown it in the past!


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

seaner97 said:


> At the risk of setting off another pissing match, I'll reiterate- Racing MAY teach you this, but only if you are the type to learn from that environment.


The only boat collisions I've personally seen have been between racers. And the closest I've ever come to having a boat run into me has been by racers practicing (multiple times over the years even though I wasn't racing and was the only thing around for them to try to hit).

Racers are most dangerous people out on the water!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Far as I'm concerned the only things racing teaches you is how to run into things FASTER!


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Smack
Have done multiple Newport and Marion to Bermudas. Also PHRF. Didn't teach me a damn thing about:
Engines, heads, AC, electrical circuitry, gensets, watermakers, fixing electronics, using ssb, etc.
Nor did it teach me a damn thing about landfalls, negotiating reefs and coastal navigation.
Nor anchoring
Nor maintenance and repair with no WM down the street.
Nor did I learn how to deal with customs, living where English is not the first language or to understand local dialects.
Nor importing parts.
Nor how to run finances and communications when outside US.

I did learn
How to blow out sails
Brake things
Be sleep deprived
Eat poorly
Be cold and wet.
Spend multiple boat units.
A side benefit was a rudimentary understanding of sail shape and how to not oversteer.

Like it or not they are two different skill sets. 
BTW I don't buy a new set of sails nor haul and burnish my bottom before every cruise.

Agree a good sailor is just that. They should be able to sail their boat to the limits of its performance envelope. A good cruiser should be a good sailor but also know when sailing at that limit is counterproductive. 
Given other than starts and tactics the skill set of a good cruiser includes the skill set of the racer I strive to be the best cruiser I can be.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I misspoke above.
I did learn celestial for Marion back in the day.
But Smack surely you realize sailing is just one part of cruising and often the easiest. Even looking at weather is different. Picking a window is different than being told when to go and where.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Experience is such a relative term. It means time on the game, but that doesn't mean one has to be any good at it.

I know people who have been dealing dice for over 20 years and they are still horrible craps dealers. Then there are those that with a year or two of years experience can take on just about action.

Just as I know guys who have been racing every Wed. night for years that are absolutely horrible sailors, they can only do as they are asked and even then it's usually a train wreck. I also know racers that I admire for their sailing skills, the ones I know also have good people skills.

When one owns yacht, the learning curve is much greater than if one only crews. As the owner you must be able to either single hand or guide others through all aspects of sailing, navigating and mooring, plus make a decent mojito.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

Thinking more about this, and re-reading the thread, the most competent of us can operate a sauna while underway making mojitos for the crew, who are incompetent but are still able to execute snappy tacks and jibes because they can just absorb our greatness from our perfectly executed commands, while at the same time explaining relativity, gravity waves, and the social sciences, while racing and at the same time fixing our heads and diesels, remotely paying our bills, and all the while not loosing our internet connection so to post the details here.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Too funny
Where's the school to learn that?


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

So Out, you realize you need to upgrade??


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

outbound said:


> Too funny
> Where's the school to learn that?


It's an online course, and you're logged into it right now!


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Experience in sailing comes from so many places that it's hard to focus on any small number of items. The term "sailing" is misleading because sailing per se is only one aspect of being competent on a boat of any type. The entire scope of mechanical skills, sailing knowledge, common sense, and physical capabilities make a good sailor. Hours on the water count but are not a good measure because we've all seen those who will never be good at it. No one is good at everything but some have combinations of skills that are more suited to handling a sailboat.


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## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

outbound said:


> Too funny
> Where's the school to learn that?


Out, Medsailor is teaching the sauna operating and Mojito making course...All the other stuff will come naturally. Hurry, limited spaces available.


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

I just had a mojito made by pouring liquid nitrogen over mint (and I think there was some tarragon). It instantly freeze dried the herbs before adding the simple syrup and rum, then they poured it through a tea strainer over ice. 

It was the best tasting mojito I've ever had.

Does that count as experience? 

How do I keep liquid nitrogen onboard?


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

We have a no drinking underway boat.

But we do try to make up for it at anchor.

My wife's poison is
Hendricks
Muddled cucumber 
St. Germaine 
Grapefruit juice

I'm boring
Single malt with one ice cube in it to get the right amount of water. Ideally a good IPA on the side.

Both seem to work. Helps if you are listening to Jimi singing " are you experienced".


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

I don't drink underway, unless you count a beer with lunch or to cool down on a hot afternoon. The drinks taste better if I wait till I'm moored for the evening.


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## gptyk (Mar 20, 2013)

I read the thread title. All I can think of is....

"Are you experienced?"

"Have you ever been experienced?"

etc.....


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

RobGallagher said:


> I don't drink underway, unless you count a beer with lunch or to cool down on a hot afternoon. The drinks taste better if I wait till I'm moored for the evening.


Rob, the only time I drink is when I'm by myself or with someone. :2 boat:

Bottom's up,

Gary :laugh


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

travlineasy said:


> Rob, the only time I drink is when I'm by myself or with someone. :2 boat:
> 
> Bottom's up,
> 
> Gary :laugh


I always drink something with someone's name on the bottle, that way I'm never alone.

Really, who wouldn't want to get drunk with someone named Booker, or Sailor Jerry, or Yamazaki, or some Scottish name that is completely unpronounceable whilst sober.


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## Omatako (Sep 14, 2003)

outbound said:


> Like it or not they are two different skill sets.
> 
> Agree a good sailor is just that. They should be able to sail their boat to the limits of its performance envelope. A good cruiser should be a good sailor but also know when sailing at that limit is counterproductive.


. . . . . should be able to but not have a strong desire to . . . . you won't make a lot of friends on your cruising boat doing that.

In fact, sailing a boat well is an advantage to cruising but it is not, by a big margin (IMHO), one of the most important things to a cruiser. Sure, it's important to know how to handle a boat in all conditions because your life may depend on it. But whether it takes me 8 days to get to Fiji or 9, who gives a toss? If anyone thinks I'm going to interrupt a good read to trim the main by another inch or ease the outhaul a fraction to get better draught, dream on. If the boat is doing 7 knots and such efforts get me 7.1 knots, I'll live with 7. Because in an hour, those adjustments will probably need to go back to where they were.

It's all those other things in Outbound's post that are really important to successful cruising. Yes, it's important to know when your gennaker is ready to blow out or when to change course to a reach rather than run DDW but it's a rounded ability to do all the other stuff that makes the difference between a good cruise and an average one.

On the fear aspect. When I have experienced something that scared me, the next such event probably won't (as much) because the knowledge that it can be survived is powerful. But have a care for others on the boat. My wife still today gets intensely nervous when wind howls in the rigging even when we're safely anchored/moored. The mental connection to the storm she experienced 8 years ago is still strong and she had a totally different view of the storm to what I did. It took me a while to understand that.

And on experience - one should not confuse experience with talent. One person can do the same thing ten times and still not get it. Another will do it once and get it completely. Those with less talent need more experience. But in the end, they both should lead to competence. If they don't, find another way to spend your time - you'll be happier for it.


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