# Campbell Sailor Prop vs. Max-Prop?



## luv4sailin (Jul 3, 2006)

I am in need of a new prop as I am moving to a slip (from a mooring) which will require a good reverse. I now have a Gori folding prop that is essentially worthless in reverse in terms of any directional control. I don't race but like that my boat performs well under sail. A new 3 blade Campbell is about 60% of the cost of a reconditioned 2 blade Max-Prop. I know the Max-Prop will be more efficient through the water under sail, but I don't know if there is a substantive difference between the two. Additionally, the Campbell can be fitted without a haulout. When I had a fixed conventional 2 blade prop and switched to the Gori, I picked up 1/2 knot at 6 knots of speed. I'm not crazy about giving that up.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

Regards,
Ron


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## IStream (Dec 15, 2013)

I don't have any experience with the Campbell, but FWIW my 3 blade Maxprop is great in reverse.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We've had both.. a Campbell on our last boat (3 blade) and a 3 blade Max on the current boat.

Same engine both instances but the Campbell was on a bigger (40 ft vs 35) boat.

While the Campbell was a big improvement on the 'floppy worn out folder' we had previously, the increase in drag was noticeable but reverse was pretty good/much better than folder.

Campbell to Max in reverse is night and day. The Max is a joy to use in reverse, smooth in forward (as was the Campbell) and clean under sail.

FWIW I think you'll be happy to have spent the extra money at the end of the day. The support/service of PYI is very good too.. but WestbyNorth is a great outfit to deal with as well..


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

I was going to mention this previously, but since you brought it up...

When I changed from my two-bladed fixed prop to a 3-bladed Max Prop, my backing performance didn't seem to change noticeably..

I still have prop walk, but it doesn't seem to be much different, and backing power was and is plenty..

(36 foot 14,000 lb boat)

Go figure


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

David.. on this boat we went from 2 blade fixed to 3 blade Max too.. I notice less propwalk and more immediate reverse way at idle/in gear than the old fixed prop. If you 'goose it' in reverse I'd agree there's not much difference - in both response and propwalk.

I'm happy, btw, that the Max has not eliminated propwalk as some claim.. I like it and use it often.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

If you go with the Campbell, are you going to need a shaft brake, or are you going to let the prop freewheel?
I think the MaxProp is the way to go today. I tried several of the folding props over the years, and every one came up far short of a reliable propeller system. The mechanical feathering props are far superior in design and function.
I don't see why anyone would consider a fixed prop today, unless they had a motor vessel.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

luv4sailin said:


> I am in need of a new prop as I am moving to a slip (from a mooring) which will require a good reverse. I now have a Gori folding prop that is essentially worthless in reverse in terms of any directional control. I don't race but like that my boat performs well under sail. A new 3 blade Campbell is about 60% of the cost of a reconditioned 2 blade Max-Prop. I know the Max-Prop will be more efficient through the water under sail, but I don't know if there is a substantive difference between the two. Additionally, the Campbell can be fitted without a haulout. When I had a fixed conventional 2 blade prop and switched to the Gori, I picked up 1/2 knot at 6 knots of speed. I'm not crazy about giving that up.
> 
> Thank you in advance for your thoughts.


I had a Campbell Sailor 3-blade and now have a 3-blade feathering prop. I've also had a conventional (Michigan Sailor) 2-blade prop on the same boat.

The reduction in drag while sailing with the feathering prop is huge, especially in light air. For me it is the difference between sailing in 5-8 knots and motoring when cruising. The feathering prop allows me to do a lot more sailing in our light-air summers.

A CS 3-blade has about the same drag as a conventional 2-blade. The blade surface is a little smaller, but it isn't a huge reduction.

My feathering prop is a Featherstream (made by Darglow) and it was installed while the boat was in the water by a friend. I've also installed a Max-Prop, this was significantly less work because the blade is assembled first and then installed. The 3-blade Featherstream was only slightly more than a 2-blade Max-Prop, and considerably cheaper than a 3-blade MaxProp.

Reverse is very good on the Featherstream (just like a Max-Prop). My boat still has a little prop-walk, but it seems to be reduced from the Campbell Sailor. I can't say for sure because I also changed my rudder locks at the same point and have more rudder control now then when I had the CS.


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## 4arch (Jul 7, 2009)

capta said:


> I don't see why anyone would consider a fixed prop today, unless they had a motor vessel.


Expense. Vibration. I've never been able to get any non-fixed prop to run as smoothly as a fixed.


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

luv4sailin said:


> Additionally, the Campbell can be fitted without a haulout.


FYI- no haulout needed to install a Max Prop. PYI can recommend qualified divers in your area.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

luv4sailin said:


> I am in need of a new prop as I am moving to a slip (from a mooring) which will require a good reverse. I now have a Gori folding prop that is essentially worthless in reverse in terms of any directional control. I don't race but like that my boat performs well under sail. A new 3 blade Campbell is about 60% of the cost of a reconditioned 2 blade Max-Prop. I know the Max-Prop will be more efficient through the water under sail, but I don't know if there is a substantive difference between the two. Additionally, the Campbell can be fitted without a haulout. When I had a fixed conventional 2 blade prop and switched to the Gori, I picked up 1/2 knot at 6 knots of speed. I'm not crazy about giving that up.
> 
> Thank you in advance for your thoughts.
> 
> ...


Hey Ron,

Here's my take on the Campbell Sailer from a similar thread a few weeks ago...

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/2155105-post12.html

bottom line, it's a nice prop in flat water, and for maneuvering, but don't expect it to work wonders punching thru a significant chop, or into a stiff headwind... Of course, I wouldn't expect that from a 2-blade Max-Prop, either...

As for drag under sail, I can't really quantify that... Certainly hasn't seemed excessive to me, I had a lot of light air sailing this summer, yet still seemed to manage some pretty decent passage times...


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## Fstbttms (Feb 25, 2003)

luv4sailin said:


> Additionally, the Campbell can be fitted without a haulout.


FYI- no haulout needed to install a Max Prop. PYI can recommend qualified divers in your area.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

Gori is nice but $$$


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

4arch said:


> Expense. Vibration. I've never been able to get any non-fixed prop to run as smoothly as a fixed.


Seeing as we actually sail our sailboat, we hardly ever have any vibration.  
2500 miles of inter-island sailing last year and less than 20 hours under power.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

I'll 2nd West by North, great service

We have a feathering Autostream prop, without anything else to compare it too I must say I like it very much, came with the boat when we purchased it almost 10 years ago. Only vibration i have had was poor alignment or marine growth, not the prop in my experience. Folding prop perhaps another story. 

Been looking at the Campbell Sailor but got some negative feedback. Thinking I'll stay with the feathering Autostream.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

I am very happy with my Max Prop, and the great support I get from PYI. Like Faster, I also find my prop walk handy


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## mr_f (Oct 29, 2011)

Seems like everyone else has it covered, but I will join the chorus. 

We have been very pleased with our max prop. I have never had a fixed prop, so I can't speak to the exact question, but the performance in reverse compared to our old folder is nothing short of amazing. And as fstbttm noted, it doesn't require haul-out. Ours needed some service at 10 years of age. It was removed by a diver, restored to like-new condition by PYI, and reinstalled by a diver (all in the dead of winter... thanks diver!).


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Have 3 blade max prop on current and last three boats. Some considerations:
Some engines like some props and others not so much. For instance the four blade max may have issues with a yanmar 75 but the 3 and 5 not. The maxs performance is very sensitive to pitch setting but this can be adjusted in the water. Good to know what rpm is your best for economy/speed and experiment a bit using manufactures support for guidance. Also knowing permitted demensions will influence your purchase. Get pro guidance as this is a big ticket idem. 
Went with the 3 instead of 4 or 5 as seems tried and true. No question max gives great economy ( have compared with sistership with fixed) and very low drag. Practical Sailor had a spread on props and David Gerr is another resource. He seems to be the prop guru.
If you are going to hang on to the boat with the price of fuel the expense will wash out. We have rule that the engine goes on at 5kts. So that decrease in drag means much less engine time.
With throttle bursts get prop walk. If slowly lean on throttle get very little walk. Reverse is as strong as forward. When sailing with engine off leave in reverse and NO shaft rotation.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

outbound said:


> We have rule that the engine goes on at 5kts.


Ahhh, yes - the advantage of a longer waterline...

Hell, on my little tub, @ 5 knots I'm often not too far from taking in the first reef...

)


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## 4arch (Jul 7, 2009)

T37Chef said:


> We have a feathering Autostream prop, without anything else to compare it too I must say I like it very much, came with the boat when we purchased it almost 10 years ago. Only vibration i have had was poor alignment or marine growth, not the prop in my experience. Folding prop perhaps another story.


Our boat had an Autostream when we sea trialed her. The vibration was so bad it almost made our teeth rattle out. The prop was not fouled. There was a spare 3-blade fixed prop in the lazarette so we had the seller reinstall it and things smoothed right out. I still have the Autostream in my basement and have arranged with Martec Engineering (US distributor for Autostream) to drop it off to them at the boat show to take back to Long Beach for a rebuild. I'm hoping this resolves the issues.


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## capecodda (Oct 6, 2009)

One more happy Max Prop user, great reverse. I've had 3 bladed Max Props on 2 of the 5 boats I've had without an issue.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

We own a Campbell three blade and for our use it has been the smoothest prop I have owned. Glass smooth. We have not had any problems punching into seas or current but the prop is perfectly sized for the boat. It went back once to get it correct.... In fact it has actually done slightly better than the previous Dumbo Ears Michigan prop. I suspect the Max three blade would do slightly better punching into seas due to the blade size but I have not done an A/B on our boat.

Reverse will be better on a Max and the Max is a tremendous prop. For the Maine coast I get to live vicariously through my customers and whacking one lobster pot can put a 3.5K dent in the wallet. We also get lots of floating debris and floating line. They also need to be re-built periodically. I have one customer who is sending his back this year because the blades are terribly sloppy/wobbly. 

I wanted simple, reliable, smooth and the Campbell fits that bill. It has more drag, which I don't like, but two years ago when I switched to a Flex-O-Fold two blade the speed differences were really only really noticeable under 3.5 knots of boat speed. Not to be discounted, but the CS does okay and is simple and reliable.

The Flex-O-Fold was a nightmare and it had to be removed. The vibrations were atrocious and could not be solved. Different boats will react differently to different props...

That said I would love a Max Prop, I just see so many of them damaged on this coast that I worry about that aspect and expense. Even if I break my CS I am out $600.00 clams which is still less than a full service/rebuild on a Max.......

Tough decision and one that should take into consideration where you sail and the potential for fouling the prop.....


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Maine Sail said:


> For the Maine coast I get to live vicariously through my customers and whacking one lobster pot can put a 3.5K dent in the wallet.


Maine, just curious... Have you had any experience - vicarious or otherwise - with the Kiwi Prop?

Their price is certainly appealing, and I've met one or two satisfied customers, but they are a bit 'different'... I'm not sure I like the idea of an acetal shaft nut, for instance... 

Just wondering, what might be your thoughts...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Several friends have gone with the Kiwi prop.. aside from being an odd looking contraption they seem generally happy, and the ability to change/replace the plastic blades individually in case of damage may be an advantage. 

The one common beef I've heard is that, out of the box, the reverse pitch is coarse enough to stall smaller engines. The 'fix' is to add a screw to the blade to limit rotation and reduce the pitch in reverse.


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## Maine Sail (Jan 6, 2003)

JonEisberg said:


> Maine, just curious... Have you had any experience - vicarious or otherwise - with the Kiwi Prop?
> 
> Their price is certainly appealing, and I've met one or two satisfied customers, but they are a bit 'different'... I'm not sure I like the idea of an acetal shaft nut, for instance...
> 
> Just wondering, what might be your thoughts...


I have two customers with them and they really like them. I am not so happy about the vibration on either of these boats but I can't comment on the rest of the drive-line or alignment etc.. I have no idea if this is prop related but both boats vibrate way more than I would ever tolerate. Both owners could care less about the vibration and have no interest in me checking the alignment.

One did lose a blade, don't recall why or how, and the replacement was pretty cheap (something like $100) and it did no damage to the hub when he lost it. He was able to repair it himself.. That to me is pretty cool.........

I like the concept, I love the price, but would need to see more of them in use before forming a better opinion about such things as performance and durability...


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

outbound said:


> With throttle bursts get prop walk. If slowly lean on throttle get very little walk.


Out:

I'm confused by this.. You get LESS prop walk when not using throttle bursts?.. this is counter to everything I have read/experienced.. I'm thinking about the situation where boat speed is real low.. like when just starting to back up, or stop forward momentum.. Am I missing something?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Seems Out's and my experience is similar, David.. I find that if I gently put the boat in reverse and leave the revs at idle the boat moves cleanly aft with very little propwalk, and gets more way on sooner than the old fixed prop. We moor bow-in, so routinely back out of our slip (well sheltered from wind and tide) without getting close to our portside neighbour if we 'idle out'.

If I give it a burst to 'accelerate' then the propwalk is evident.


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Faster said:


> Seems Out's and my experience is similar, David.. I find that if I gently put the boat in reverse and leave the revs at idle the boat moves cleanly aft with very little propwalk, and gets more way on sooner than the old fixed prop. We moor bow-in, so routinely back out of our slip (well sheltered from wind and tide) without getting close to our portside neighbour if we 'idle out'.
> 
> If I give it a burst to 'accelerate' then the propwalk is evident.


Huh... Well I need to try that. Interesting.

I do recall that the fairways are pretty narrow by your slip.. I imagine things would get pretty interesting if the wind/currents were an issue..


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## luv4sailin (Jul 3, 2006)

Thank you Gentlemen;

After considering your generous and thoughtful input, a Max-prop it is.

Regards,
Ron


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Overall I think you'll be happy with that, but do be mindful of Maine Sail's warning about snagging crab pots.. IIRC you're on the Eastern seaboard?


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## luv4sailin (Jul 3, 2006)

I sail out of Miami.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

luv4sailin said:


> I sail out of Miami.


Lucky you !!.. so no issue with crab pots, then...


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

luv4sailin said:


> Thank you Gentlemen;
> 
> After considering your generous and thoughtful input, a Max-prop it is.
> 
> ...


I think you will be very happy with it, Ron...

One thing you might want to do is ask if PYI has any used ones that will fit your boat. They recondition them, and are as good as new. I saved around 25% to 30% doing that..


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## trantor12020 (Mar 11, 2006)

Kiwi Feathering Prop? No?


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Well.. It seems that Out and Faster aren't crazy.

My boat behaves just like they said. Very little prop walk while idling in reverse, and more if I give it some throttle.

Very convenient. I like it.... Used it to back into a tight slip yesterday. I need to relearn some habits..

Thanks!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

David, 

I ws going to say, I have the same experience with my 2 blade max as faster and out do. Give it a little reverse while still going forward, and you will have little to no prop walk. Give it some diesel, and yeah, prop walk can and will occur. Of course, this can be both good and bad. 

Hope you enjoyed the drifter yesterday. Need to go put all the fuel lines back onto my motor, and see if I can get rid of some stalling issues. THink a lot will be the replacement of a fuel lift pump. Handle part is really floppy vs new one. Is Kyrie back in edmonds? or still up in Everett? I may find out sooner than you reply depending if I go back to marina to work on boat vs putting annuals at EYC.

Marty


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## djodenda (Mar 4, 2006)

Marty:
We took third (division) in the drifter, with both kids onboard, and we are quite happy. Had a whale very close to the boat, and Hope is still giggly about it.

Handle floppiness is going to depend on where it is resting on the cam shaft, I think.. Probably not a good diagnostic test.

Boat comes back early November


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Handle test is while out of block! manual pump is not pumping with the handle being pushed.......

Glad you had a good time. Suspect another shortened course race?

I have yet to see a whale out there. Altho did have a pod of a dozen or so of the porpose's hand around the boat one day in very lttle if any wind. Had some guests on board from the mid west. they were very pleased with the day after that show. 

marty


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