# Cost to Replace Chainplates? Should I Walk Away?



## CheckedOutRob (Nov 3, 2012)

I'm about to fly out to a pre-purchase survey on a 1985 Passport 40. I looked at a survey done on this boat last year and apparently the chainplates are original on this '85 boat. Noted was some water evidence near one of the port chainplates. I'll need to replace them regardless and would like to know what I'm in for cost-wise. I'll need to get some 316 SS water jet cut for the new chainplates and open up the interior to get the chainplates in. I'll likely do some of the work myself but may or may not depending on yard policies.

Is this a $4,000 job or is it a $10,000+ job?? How much time would a yard take for this project? What would be a good yard for this in Washington?

My intent is crossing oceans and voyaging for many years. I intend to own this boat for a long time. I'm experienced and have crossed oceans and I build/repair inspect aircraft for a living so not afraid of complex jobs.

The survey indicates a newer Perkins installed in 2000 as well as several items I need such as wind vane and some newer sails and SSB and diesel cabin heat as well as some other recent upgrades. 

I realize I'll need to do a refit. I'm hoping not to do a massive years long refit turning into a money-suck. That would be dumb. If you've replaced your chainplates I'd be interested in how that went and it's cost. ...And if you know of anyone on the west US with a Passport 40 who might be willing to sell -I'm buying.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

If I understand correctly, all of the standing rigging of a typical sailboat can only be absolutely counted on for 10 years. After that, you are officially "on your own".

Since it sounds like you are in the market for a used boat well beyond 10 years old, and you are going to: "My intent is crossing oceans and voyaging for many years." and with your statement: "I build/repair inspect aircraft for a living.." everything there says you will be replacing the standing rig, including the chainplates. 

Compared to rebuilding a plane, replacing any chainplates should be childs' play to you.

I loved your statement: "I realize I'll need to do a refit. I'm hoping not to do a massive years long refit turning into a money-suck. That would be dumb."

If you are doing a refit, it will be long and will cost a lot. Calling this reality "dumb" is "funny" at the least.... 

Good luck in your purchase!


----------



## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

I don't think water jet is the best tool for cutting chainplates. It leaves a somewhat coarse edge that will need to be cleaned up to avoid corrosion. Personally I'd machine then (CNC or manual).

There is no way that a few custom machined bars of 316 stainless steel should cost $10k.


----------



## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

One you would have to have really GOOD LUCK to find a boat with age X chainplates 


The cost is very much how hidden the plates are which can range from fully exposed and easy to remove to absolutely unable to even see them 

Making them again depends on what you are copying and there is nothing wrong with waterjet to make the shape it just a matter of to work necessary to finish the edges and bring the holes to final size compared to other methods


----------



## paperbird (Sep 1, 2011)

As a point of reference (every boat and project is different), we replaced all of our chainplates with the rig up - 2 at a time. had new ones custom fabricated at a local shop. Did a great job! Total cost was under $400 for the fab work. We did all the installation labor ourselves.


----------



## CheckedOutRob (Nov 3, 2012)

Well, refit is a relative word. I guess I meant offshore prep for safety. Refit seems to some to mean "replace everything". I think I used it incorrectly. Currently newer sails, refer, standing rigging instruments and engine indicate a concientious owner. I think a some of the people I see on the list are really brilliant with tools and then again some should not pick up a wrench. 
I see the same thing in aircraft -people buy an aircraft with starry eyes then realize they do not have the federal licence to perform the work. Parts are a fortune and so is my labor -but I'm good and very fair. The aircraft sits a long time and sucks money and tie down fees. So I think I know mostly what I'm in for. I'm intently avoiding a "project" boat. I'm attempting to take emotion out of the purchase equation but boats are alluring little beasties.

I'd love to hear what someone who has done a chainplate r&r has to offer as advice on cost and time.


----------



## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

its not the cost of the materials it is the labor from the yard that will put the job in the $6k range. no matter which way you choose to cut stainless you will need to finish the metal to a #7 finish ( mirror ) and passivate it if you want to prevent corrosion. water jet or Laser cut will give you just as good a finish as machining in which to start the sanding and polishing process and will cost a lot less. many boats have chainplates made of standard flat bar and only require being cut to length and drilled then polished. you can also buy flat bar that is already polished to a #7. a bit expensive but saves your on labor. if you think you will keep the boat more then ten years then go Titanium. expensive but no polishing is required to prevent corrosion.


----------



## Skipper Jer (Aug 26, 2008)

Whats to prevent the OP from replacing the chain plates one at a time? Couldn't the work be done while the mast is still up, the boat is in the water and the yard doesn't have to know about it? That would save him thousands of dollars.


----------



## CheckedOutRob (Nov 3, 2012)

Alex W said:


> I don't think water jet is the best tool for cutting chainplates. It leaves a somewhat coarse edge that will need to be cleaned up to avoid corrosion. Personally I'd machine then (CNC or manual).
> 
> There is no way that a few custom machined bars of 316 stainless steel should cost $10k.


-Hmmmm. I thought water jet cut absolutely razor clean edges? Hence the reason for water jet cutting recommendations on chain plates. I know the need to polish and then electropolish to remove stress risers after the cutting. Is your comment that water jet leaves rough edges conjecture or first hand? Jus wonderin. Thanks.


----------



## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Chainplates are just one item. I'm not familiar with the PP 40 construction. What about the bulkheads they are attached to? If they need repair or replacement that adds additional time and expense. If the surveyor only noted one point of water intrusion, you might not have a major issue there. Worth a close look. As Tommays mentioned, how accessible the chainplates are will either complicate or simplify the task ? 

Then there's the standing rigging. But any vessel of that age is going to have needs of that nature that should be built in to the budget, unless they've already been addressed.


----------



## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

CheckedOutRob said:


> Well, refit is a relative word. I guess I meant offshore prep for safety. Refit seems to some to mean "replace everything". I think I used it incorrectly. Currently newer sails, refer, standing rigging instruments and engine indicate a concientious owner. I think a some of the people I see on the list are really brilliant with tools and then again some should not pick up a wrench.
> I see the same thing in aircraft -people buy an aircraft with starry eyes then realize they do not have the federal licence to perform the work. Parts are a fortune and so is my labor -but I'm good and very fair. The aircraft sits a long time and sucks money and tie down fees. So I think I know mostly what I'm in for. I'm intently avoiding a "project" boat. I'm attempting to take emotion out of the purchase equation but boats are alluring little beasties.
> 
> I'd love to hear what someone who has done a chainplate r&r has to offer as advice on cost and time.


I have been working on aircraft and boats all my life and now I own a machine shop. working on aircraft in front of your shop is demanding work and some times hard because of the tight space requirements. but working on a boat that is in a yard or in the water can be much harder and way more time consuming then you would think. it is not as technical but a bit like working on a big jet on a muddy dirt strip and all you have is a latter and a crescent wrench. if you forget one tool you could be done for the day.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Bad chain plates and newer engine? Doesn't sound like a deal breaker to me.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

I think I've read that some people have moved chain plates to the outer hull.


----------



## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

CheckedOutRob said:


> -Hmmmm. I thought water jet cut absolutely razor clean edges? Hence the reason for water jet cutting recommendations on chain plates. I know the need to polish and then electropolish to remove stress risers after the cutting. Is your comment that water jet leaves rough edges conjecture or first hand? Jus wonderin. Thanks.


Water jet does not leave stress risers because the surface is cut with an abrasive. leaves a smooth but slightly wavy surface. machining, laser and plasma cutting leaves stress risers that need to be sanded and polished out to remove them. for corrosion resistance the stainless need to be polished


----------



## BluemanSailor (Apr 28, 2009)

Am replacing the chainplates on my boat- 8 in total. Cost Stainless metal (316) $25.00 each- cut to size, drilling the holes and welding spacers on the end. $0.00 - exchanged some wood work for the labor. Brought the stainless at http://www.pennstainless.com/ they will custom cut!

Installing- about $30.00 for all new nuts and bolts, and another $40.00 for bedding material.

Whatever you do DO NOT let the boatyard do this project, it's not a big deal, they wanted to charge me $200.00 per piece uninstalled.! Unless hey give you a reasonable price. But you will definitely save a lot of money by DYI.

And I'm doing them 2x a time while the mast is up! no big deal here!


----------



## CheckedOutRob (Nov 3, 2012)

Roland,

Thanks for the support on this project!! You didn't mention the size of boat you did the work on but it sounds like you understand where I'm coming from. Liked that you noted the cost and suppliers. It's what I was hoping to hear. Now I just have to find somewhere to work on my boat if I go ahead with the purchase.


----------



## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Nice boat!
The Passport 40 Sailboat : Bluewaterboats.org
group too!
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/PassportOwners


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

The only big expense in replacing chainplates is if they are inaccessible - glassed to the hull, hidden by elaborate cabinetry etc. or if their attaching points are rotted - bulkhead replacement needed and so forth.

If it's simply replacing like with like it shouldn't even get to a boat buck - assuming you turn the wrenches.

Take one or two out and give them to the machine shop to use as templates. They should be made from flat bar, not cut out of plate with a jet. Get them electropolished for a few bucks more and replace - then two more and so on.

I did them on my Columbia 43, which included a fair bit of welding and the reconstruction of a fairly elaborate headstay fitting for less that $1K.


----------



## BluemanSailor (Apr 28, 2009)

CheckedOutRob said:


> Roland,
> 
> Thanks for the support on this project!! You didn't mention the size of boat you did the work on but it sounds like you understand where I'm coming from. Liked that you noted the cost and suppliers. It's what I was hoping to hear. Now I just have to find somewhere to work on my boat if I go ahead with the purchase.


I'm working on a 34 footer- finishing up somethings- in between the storms and then will start installing my chainplates. Where are you located?


----------



## CheckedOutRob (Nov 3, 2012)

Now THAT is what I'm hoping for! $1000 bucks for parts and a #(*$&load of my labor should work ok. BUT, the surveyor noted that there was water intrusion in the port forward knee. Everything being equal I believe I may go ahead with the purchase simply because all the other things I'd need for an offshore boat are mostly there and fairly servieable/newer. I'll never find a 100% boat unless it's close to $200k and if I do the work I know it's solid. I would not go ahead with a boat that had a timed out engine unless it was completely compensated for in purchase price ie. appx. $18K.


----------



## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Unless you simply like throwing away money I seriously suggest you give this man a call. He made my chain plates and another guys at my marina and they are WAY beefier than what I had and were almost too cheap to believe. Its high quality work but he charges extra for polishing, boring holes, ect ect. I just simply had the plates made and did the polishing and booring myself. I am not related to this man and have no continued working relation with him what so ever. Talon on this website also used him I believe after I gave him his info.


Mr. James Idel. He works under the business Fab Solutions. His phone number is (904) 982-6113.
Id give him a call- what could it hurt?


----------



## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

I must have missed something between "some water evidence near one of the port chainplates" (rebed chainplates) and "I'll need to replace them regardless".
Do you mean you'll need to replace them regardless of whether they need replacement ?
Never mind, you got the survey, I've had leaky chainplates, never had "water incursion at the knee", that could take some work.


----------



## CheckedOutRob (Nov 3, 2012)

I live near Los Angeles but the boat is in state of WA. Intent -if I ok the purchase- is leave in WA for several mos. and purchase a WA cruising permit. Do a little work on and off. Sail south. Stop in Oregon for some days on way south and enjoy seafood. Pass Kalifornia completely without stopping ashore and go to a shipyard then marina in Ensenada for several mos. Return to CA after one year. I have retained a marine atty who is consulting me on this. You-know-why.


----------



## CheckedOutRob (Nov 3, 2012)

Well, my intent is serious voyaging so unfortunately I cannot trust any chainplates original to the boat. I'd be tickled pink to hear they had been replaced but it probably isn't so. Stainless is one metal that has a cumulative fatigue lifespan. Stainless work hardens. Work hardening means "brittle". A chainplate cycle loads and work hardens. I've heard of people removing their 'plates and breaking them in half with their hands. Easily.


----------



## CheckedOutRob (Nov 3, 2012)

Thank You! I have put his contact info in my file. I'll follow up after the survey...


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

CheckedOutRob said:


> Well, my intent is serious voyaging so unfortunately I cannot trust any chainplates original to the boat. I'd be tickled pink to hear they had been replaced but it probably isn't so. Stainless is one metal that has a cumulative fatigue lifespan. Stainless work hardens. Work hardening means "brittle". A chainplate cycle loads and work hardens. I've heard of people removing their 'plates and breaking them in half with their hands. Easily.


I did exactly that with my headstay fitting. It looked O/K but had some brown staining so I buffed it up with my buffing wheels. It came up like chrome but there was a faint hairline scratch remaining - I buffed some more but it was still there. I took the whole fitting in my hands and tried to bend it whereupon it twisted like taffy and snapped through the hairline mark. I doubt it took 20 lbs of force to tear it in two and it had looked perfect - the hairline was nearly invisible.

At that point I pulled them all and made up new ones.


----------



## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

FYI, after my chainplates broke a couple years ago various riggers and other experts strongly advised using the new* titanium *alloy chainplates are the only way to go.


----------



## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

deniseO30 said:


> I think I've read that some people have moved chain plates to the outer hull.


Here is how to do this on a CSY 44 CLICKY

NB Several CSY 44 owners have had chainplates fail.


----------



## CheckedOutRob (Nov 3, 2012)

Thanks. I have heard that titanium does not corrode (or takes forever). I may pursue that route but if the trade-off in dollars for titanium 'plates is insanely high I may stick with 316. I also like that Ti does not need polishing. That because I don't see the life of a 1985 boat being 60+ years. My knowledge of titanium is relative to aircraft. I gotta assume the really huge mass of titanium required to fab up 6 chainplates is outrageously expensive. Metals have recently gone sky high in price. One tiny 3/8 aircraft bolt in titanium costs about $12++. But I applaud you for having the foresight to install titanium and never have to worry again. That's peace of mind and worth the cost.


----------



## aeventyr60 (Jun 29, 2011)

If your serious about going offshore then this project is a must and can be done by yourself. If your cruising plans are 10+ years and crossing several oceans then you will probably need to do the project again...probably in a little out of the way place with scant resources. I'm on my second set. DIY now, then you'll have the experience and knowledge to do it again.


----------



## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

For whatever it is worth / IMHO, the cost of Titanium is well offset by the "cost" either in money or your own time, of the installation, not to mention the greater strength it will have to accomplish their job, and save your rig from failure.

FYI, my wife and I lost our 50 footer 1000 miles out to sea on July 27th 2011, because our chainplates broke.

So, buy your chainplates wisely....


----------



## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Titnium are a waste of money unless you are going to be keeping the boat for a very long time. Even thenbe why bother? You still onlyand have ten to fifteen years on the rigging. Its just another wy to spendthe more $ then youi need. Unless your circumnaving or sailing theis southern. Ocean beefy 316 will be justa fine. Id recomend titanium too if i was a seller. Motr $ in my poket.c


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

rob-
Titanium is expensive in two ways: The metal itself, and machining it. A bolt will be expensive because of the threading and machining, in that sense it could almost be cheaper to cut (waterjet, plasma, whatever) a titanium chainplate than to thread titanium parts. Stainless is prone to crevice failure if it gets damp and stays damp--as chainplates are prone to do. Titanium doesn't have that problem. Then again, neither does bronze, which may be another consideration for you if the strength is high enough.
Access, interior trim or hull work, and whether the water damage has crept several yards beyond the chainplate, these are the things that can really push up the price way beyond the parts.


----------



## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

CheckedOutRob said:


> -Hmmmm. I thought water jet cut absolutely razor clean edges? Hence the reason for water jet cutting recommendations on chain plates. I know the need to polish and then electropolish to remove stress risers after the cutting. Is your comment that water jet leaves rough edges conjecture or first hand? Jus wonderin. Thanks.


Waterjet does have the ability to cut that fine, and should do so, what I imagine they are talking about is plasma arc cutting, which leaves a nasty edge, but it is easily ground off. If the yard charges you $6k for doing chain plates you need to have them shot for theft.


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

SloopJonB said:


> They should be made from flat bar, not cut out of plate with a jet.


Why do you say that?


----------



## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

CheckedOutRob said:


> I live near Los Angeles but the boat is in state of WA. Intent -if I ok the purchase- is leave in WA for several mos. and purchase a WA cruising permit. Do a little work on and off. Sail south. Stop in Oregon for some days on way south and enjoy seafood. Pass Kalifornia completely without stopping ashore and go to a shipyard then marina in Ensenada for several mos. Return to CA after one year. I have retained a marine atty who is consulting me on this. You-know-why.


Actually I would like to know why.
Sales tax?
What is a WA cruising permit.


----------



## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

davidpm said:


> Why do you say that?


Why not.  Why would you go to the trouble and expense to WJ cut a chainplate out of a piece of plate instead of simply using a length of correctly sized flat bar?

If you have chains that are some obscure shape then yeah - WJ cutting is great but the vast majority of chains are simple flat bar, drilled as required.


----------



## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

Why not look at someplace like this on the web and see if they have already made up your particular type and size?

Chainplates & Stemhead Fittings


----------



## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

As i said titanium is not the way to go. Save yourself the time and $. 316 is fine dude. Bed it correctly and no worries for atleast 3 years. I dont know about your chainplates speific but mine are very easy to pulland check up close every year.


----------



## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Harborless said:


> As i said titanium is not the way to go. Save yourself the time and $. 316 is fine dude. Bed it correctly and no worries for atleast 3 years. I dont know about your chainplates speific but mine are very easy to pulland check up close every year.


How much is your rig worth? How much is your boat worth? And finally, how much is your life worth?

Compare those answers to how much would these titanium chainplates cost?

The person who started this thread claims he will be cruising across oceans for years. If he can afford to do that, I can only assume he can splurge a little on some TOP quality chainplates.

Most boats you would cross the Atlantic with are not that small that the chainplates can be easily pulled and inspected annually. Mine are very deeply installed into this boat.

WHY not spend the money for the best that todays' technology can provide for such an important part of your boat?

If you are on a hot dog and raman noodles budget, then besides "saving" on chainplates, perhaps you would do best to stay in an apartment... IMHO.

Nobody ever said Yachting is a cheap endeavor. IF they did, they were wrong.


----------



## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Harborless said:


> Titnium are a waste of money unless you are going to be keeping the boat for a very long time. Even thenbe why bother? You still onlyand have ten to fifteen years on the rigging. Its just another wy to spendthe more $ then youi need. Unless your circumnaving or sailing theis southern. Ocean beefy 316 will be justa fine. Id recomend titanium too if i was a seller. Motr $ in my poket.c


This is what the person asking for advice stated:

"My intent is crossing oceans and voyaging for many years. I intend to own this boat for a long time."

So, with this in mind, you don't want to scrimp on chainplates.... go with Titanium. It is what you do in 2013 if you want the best.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"Bed it correctly and no worries for atleast 3 years."
Wow, turning "do it right once and forever" into a tri-annual maintance and major replacement chore?? I think I'd trust to blind luck and ignore chainplates rather than do a replacement job that I didn't think would last an awful lot longer.
One can easily argue that correct bedding is simply not possible on the conventional chainplate arrangement, stuffing "goo" around a hole that penetrates the deck. Switching to materials that simply can't suffer the corrosion failure, that's something else again though.


----------



## dorymate1 (Dec 6, 2011)

Hayne will cut polish and deliver new chain plates. Made from proper materials & done right. Use the pros not a back yard fabricator when dealing with chain plates . Nothing to fool around with here.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

dory, if the chainplates are flat bar stock or bent bar stock, anything simple like that, any machine shop and yes, and back yard fabricator can replicate them. As opposed to express shipping ALL of the chainplates cross-country and back, or waiting for weeks while they are out.

Chainplates are usually a bog-simple fab job, anyone who has figured out how to work in machine shop while keeping all 12 of their fingers can make them up. (Never trust a machinist who isn't polydactyl, he just isn't equipped for the job.)


----------



## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> "Bed it correctly and no worries for atleast 3 years."
> Wow, turning "do it right once and forever" into a tri-annual maintance and major replacement chore?? I think I'd trust to blind luck and ignore chainplates rather than do a replacement job that I didn't think would last an awful lot longer.
> One can easily argue that correct bedding is simply not possible on the conventional chainplate arrangement, stuffing "goo" around a hole that penetrates the deck. Switching to materials that simply can't suffer the corrosion failure, that's something else again though.


Ive seen some really complicated chainplate setups. My boat is super simple. If you bed them right then like standing rigging 306 should not be able to corrode enough to do any crevice damage for atleast three years. Then simply check once per until the seven eight mark. If your like me you hose the deck with freshwater after salt water sailing.

Your standing rigging is only good for ten. So why buy titanium when you will have to replace the whole rig anyway? When that time comes any prudent captain would pull the chains for inspection anyway so i, really not seeing the critical value of titainium vs beefy 306 here. Its just a lot of flash and money. Its like dropping a cat back exhaust in a honda civic . Sure it might add some hp and not corrode like factory but at the end of the day its still a honda.
The cost to me do not justify the expense but its not my boat. Its his choice. That money saved could be a whole nother island adventure and besides a circum nav will not take longer then 3 or 4 after which case you will need to do a complete and thorough inspect of the entire rig and system ANYWAY, including the chainplates.v


----------



## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Harborless said:


> Ive seen some really complicated chainplate setups. My boat is super simple. If you bed them right then like standing rigging 306 should not be able to corrode enough to do any crevice damage for atleast three years. Then simply check once per until the seven eight mark. If your like me you hose the deck with freshwater after salt water sailing.
> 
> Your standing rigging is only good for ten. So why buy titanium when you will have to replace the whole rig anyway? When that time comes any prudent captain would pull the chains for inspection anyway so i, really not seeing the critical value of titainium vs beefy 306 here. Its just a lot of flash and money. Its like dropping a cat back exhaust in a honda civic . Sure it might add some hp and not corrode like factory but at the end of the day its still a honda.
> The cost to me do not justify the expense but its not my boat. Its his choice. That money saved could be a whole nother island adventure and besides a circum nav will not take longer then 3 or 4 after which case you will need to do a complete and thorough inspect of the entire rig and system ANYWAY, including the chainplates.v


Though standing rigging is "only good for ten", nobody I know actually follows that schedule. Maybe you do, but nobody around Boston whom I know is, or else every single sailboat here would have a new rig.

Anyway, after my chainplates broke 1000 miles out to sea, 2 different riggers were clear on one thing: Use Titanium if you are replacing your chainplates.

For me, (a 1986 Ta Chiao CT 56), it is more than enough of a hassle to actually access and replace the chainplates, and knowing I am not going to replace my rig every 10 years, if / when I do replace my chainplates I sure am going to use titanium.

Save a few bucks if you want, I would rather have peace of mind, within the realities of how often I actually do replace my rig / chainplates; i.e., once per generation.


----------



## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

The idea that chainplates and standing rigging are going to be replaced every three years is sort of nutty. I know I have never seen anyone who did that, and I have been around a boat or two LOL. I do not even know anyone who replaces all of the running rigging every three years, all that rope and the sails and the stainless adds up to a huge pile of cash no matter who you are, and what generally happens is that a person will inspect it or have it inspected at the time of purchase and then replace the stuff that is either missing, broken, or will be broken before next season. Then after that it is a continual maintenance thing, polishing, cleaning, repairing, and praying that this crap does not come apart anytime there is a storm is all part of most people's boating experience. I personally do all of my own work on the boats that I have owned, with minor exceptions, and I get to know the boat very well, and this lets me know what I can get away with waiting to fix, and what I cannot.

If something is going to fall and bonk me on the head, or is going to let the water on the outside get to be on the inside,or something that is going to catch on fire and toast me and the boat, or make it impossible to steer the boat then it gets fairly immediate attention. If something is going to make it hard for me to eat, drink, use the toilet, or shower it gets attention as soon as I can conveniently deal with it. If something is just a minor nuisance or inconvenience but it is not going to burn me, drown me, or keep me from being comfortable, then I deal with it during routine maintenance that I schedule for every week, month, and year.

There is always something to do on a boat, there is no such thing as having nothing that you need to do, but at least some of it can wait until you get done doing what you want to do. After all, if you make yourself a slave to the boat then you are just working, and you are not even getting paid for it.


----------



## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

I did not say REPLACE, I simply said inspect- my chainplate broke in a small craft advisory on the St. Johns from a fracture between the deck and underside so my visual inspection was worthless- you had to PULL THE CHAINPLATE to be able to see it. So after three years you SHOULD pull the chainplates and inspect- BOTH SIDES!!!!! I only pulled the starboard side and it was so nice looking I skipped port. Port was the one that snapped in 25 knots risking mast collapse.

Also- Circumnavigating is WAY different than occasional sailing. The CONSTANT stress and loads, salt corrosion, and constant use warrant a COMPLETE CHECK UP after said circum navigation INCLUDING chainplates titanium or not. I said a rig is good for 10- yes it can make 20 but come 15 Im replacing unless Im in fresh water. Your standing rigging is only trumped by your seacocks. Standing rigging includes chainplates. So unless your going titanium shrouds and turn buckles too I REALLY dont see the point in the expense of titanium over 306.


----------



## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

mark2gmtrans said:


> The idea that chainplates and standing rigging are going to be replaced every three years is sort of nutty. I know I have never seen anyone who did that, and I have been around a boat or two LOL. I do not even know anyone who replaces all of the running rigging every three years, all that rope and the sails and the stainless adds up to a huge pile of cash no matter who you are, and what generally happens is that a person will inspect it or have it inspected at the time of purchase and then replace the stuff that is either missing, broken, or will be broken before next season. Then after that it is a continual maintenance thing, polishing, cleaning, repairing, and praying that this crap does not come apart anytime there is a storm is all part of most people's boating experience. I personally do all of my own work on the boats that I have owned, with minor exceptions, and I get to know the boat very well, and this lets me know what I can get away with waiting to fix, and what I cannot.
> 
> If something is going to fall and bonk me on the head, or is going to let the water on the outside get to be on the inside,or something that is going to catch on fire and toast me and the boat, or make it impossible to steer the boat then it gets fairly immediate attention. If something is going to make it hard for me to eat, drink, use the toilet, or shower it gets attention as soon as I can conveniently deal with it. If something is just a minor nuisance or inconvenience but it is not going to burn me, drown me, or keep me from being comfortable, then I deal with it during routine maintenance that I schedule for every week, month, and year.
> 
> There is always something to do on a boat, there is no such thing as having nothing that you need to do, but at least some of it can wait until you get done doing what you want to do. After all, if you make yourself a slave to the boat then you are just working, and you are not even getting paid for it.


Reality, clearly stated! I love to hear this stuff so much more than the unrealistic BS so often stated.

Bravo Sailor, bravo!


----------



## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

DougSabbag said:


> Reality, clearly stated! I love to hear this stuff so much more than the unrealistic BS so often stated.
> 
> Bravo Sailor, bravo!


Though my ancestors were from Spain and Germany I often suspect a frugal Scottish ancestor in there somewhere, because I am cheap as all get out, but then the German kicks in once I start working on something and it has to be done right or not at all. The fight between Scotland and Germany must rage at times in my DNA, because the frugal side knows better than to start a repair project because once started all that cheapheartedness has to be pushed aside.


----------



## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

Harborless said:


> I did not say REPLACE, I simply said inspect- my chainplate broke in a small craft advisory on the St. Johns from a fracture between the deck and underside so my visual inspection was worthless- you had to PULL THE CHAINPLATE to be able to see it. So after three years you SHOULD pull the chainplates and inspect- BOTH SIDES!!!!! I only pulled the starboard side and it was so nice looking I skipped port. Port was the one that snapped in 25 knots risking mast collapse.
> 
> Also- Circumnavigating is WAY different than occasional sailing. The CONSTANT stress and loads, salt corrosion, and constant use warrant a COMPLETE CHECK UP after said circum navigation INCLUDING chainplates titanium or not. I said a rig is good for 10- yes it can make 20 but come 15 Im replacing unless Im in fresh water. Your standing rigging is only trumped by your seacocks. Standing rigging includes chainplates. So unless your going titanium shrouds and turn buckles too I REALLY dont see the point in the expense of titanium over 306.


Unless your chainplates are installed on the outside of your hull, (unlike mine), they are generally installed in such places that corrosion can more easily get to them than to your exposed turnbuckles, etc., which again, you can much more easily clean up.

So, there is a big difference in the full spectrum of stresses which the plates will be exposed to vs. the rest of the rig. Titanium will NOT rust.

And, as I mentioned, in reality I am only going to change these once. So, I will use the best material available for those, and then I won't have to take apart my cabin interior to "inspect" them. Which unless you are going to do the dye test, or an Xray, just looking at them doesn't really tell you jack.

Why fight using the best especially for such a deeply nested, hard to replace, and important part(s), which statistically speaking, you are only going to replace once, per boat you own.

Fair winds....
Doug


----------



## DougSabbag (Aug 3, 2011)

mark2gmtrans said:


> Though my ancestors were from Spain and Germany I often suspect a frugal Scottish ancestor in there somewhere, because I am cheap as all get out, but then the German kicks in once I start working on something and it has to be done right or not at all. The fight between Scotland and Germany must rage at times in my DNA, because the frugal side knows better than to start a repair project because once started all that cheapheartedness has to be pushed aside.


Well, besides ancestry, age and experience has taught me that in the long run, quite frequently, using / buying the best, actually saves me money.

And on top of all that, my ancestry must have someone who was lazy, because I'd much rather only tackle something as difficult as changing my chainplates, (or pulling my motor), once, if at all possible.

So, when I do pull my motor, I also balance it by grinding the outside of the shank of each connecting rod until the entire piston assemblies all weigh the same, within a fraction of a gram. Makes for a very smooth running motor, but more importantly it will LAST A LONG TIME.

Sadly, I beleive we spend around 80% of our "sailing time" maintaining our boats, and 20% sailing if we are very, very lucky. Use Titanium.


----------



## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Harborless said:


> I did not say REPLACE, I simply said inspect- my chainplate broke in a small craft advisory on the St. Johns from a fracture between the deck and underside so my visual inspection was worthless- you had to PULL THE CHAINPLATE to be able to see it. So after three years you SHOULD pull the chainplates and inspect- BOTH SIDES!!!!! I only pulled the starboard side and it was so nice looking I skipped port. Port was the one that snapped in 25 knots risking mast collapse.
> 
> Also- Circumnavigating is WAY different than occasional sailing. The CONSTANT stress and loads, salt corrosion, and constant use warrant a COMPLETE CHECK UP after said circum navigation INCLUDING chainplates titanium or not. I said a rig is good for 10- yes it can make 20 but come 15 Im replacing unless Im in fresh water. Your standing rigging is only trumped by your seacocks. Standing rigging includes chainplates. So unless your going titanium shrouds and turn buckles too I REALLY dont see the point in the expense of titanium over 306.


first it is 316 stainless that is preferred for corrosion resistance not 306. there is no 306 stainless steel. not many people will pull chainplates to check every three years, you my be the only one. checking chain plates, and checking rigging are two different things. if I am going around the world and changing the plates first it would be Titanium for sure. why go to all that work and not do it so you do not have to ever worry about it again. the cost difference is only in the material not the labor which would be the same. another good material is Nitronic 50 which is what rod rigging is made out of. and the chainplates on my boat are made out of aluminum and 25 years old but they are in the cabin


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Mark, you'll know the German has kicked in when you feel the compulsion to replace every screw and bolt on the boat with something that has a recessed metric Allen (hex) head instead of any other fastener. Preferably in at least two dozen different sizes, so two dozen specialty tools will be required to service them all.

Oh wait, "dozen" isn't metric, that's gonna be another problem isn't it? <G>

Proper German engineering would produce outstanding chain plates, but you'd need to remove three access panels (at least one of which requires a new gasket and seal kit to be used when replacing it) with six special tools to reach them, and you'd void the warranty on the boat for having an unauthorized independent source touch them, instead of the factory trained mechanic. You may be German, but you're not _authorized_.


----------



## Harborless (Nov 10, 2010)

Fine- You go Titanium Ill stay 316. Ill sell my boat in 3 to 5 and save the grand for a vacation to costa rica next fall. 
Each their own.
Out.


----------



## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

12"x36" of 1/4" Titanium plate, unspecified alloy, $800+.
Four bars of 316SS, 3"x 36", $220.

Without shopping around or trying to factor in the harder machine work...Not so bad, an extra $600--700 for chainplates that simply COULD NOT experience that failure on a 30-40' boat.

Not that the difference is chump change, but if access is a problem and someone plans to keep a boat long long term...it might even be a good selling point for the next owner. One less thing they have to worry about as well.

Of course if you have titanium chainplates, they should be bolted external to the hull, and finished in those wonderful irredescent colors that only titanium has, just to make sure everyone knows it. (VBG)


----------



## CheckedOutRob (Nov 3, 2012)

Uh, CA sales tax is 8%. You buy in CA and you are legally bound to simply cut that check for 8% of book value of your new boat and drop it in the mail to CA BOE. Forget to do it? They'll have you and your boat. They are merciless. AND they'll charge you late fees, interest and penalties.

Washington allows a cruising permit for 6 mos. There are other states to sail to. My atty will file the correct papers with CA to prove yacht was not in CA. If you are buying a boat of any consequence you need to do your due diligence.

I don't want to tip my hat if any of the bad guys monitor this board.

BUT, I pay a hell of a lot of taxes. I follow the law and support my country. Tax avoidance IS A RIGHT. Tax evasion is illegal and should be punished accordingly.


----------



## CheckedOutRob (Nov 3, 2012)

As the OP on this thread I should follow up on the title of this post. 

I just did walk away from the Passport 40 this week. Long flight to WA to check it out. Needed new teak deck, engine oil in bilge, chainplates looked bad, leaks from saloon windows, ugliest mast I've ever seen -painted brown, mainsail shot, several diesel leaks, smelly head, dodger shot, rig had issues etc, etc.
BUT fantastic news!!!! I'm closing on an amazingly good shape Nordic 44 next week.


----------



## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

CheckedOutRob said:


> Uh, CA sales tax is 8%. You buy in CA and you are legally bound to simply cut that check for 8% of book value of your new boat and drop it in the mail to CA BOE. Forget to do it? They'll have you and your boat. They are merciless. AND they'll charge you late fees, interest and penalties.
> 
> Washington allows a cruising permit for 6 mos. There are other states to sail to. My atty will file the correct papers with CA to prove yacht was not in CA. If you are buying a boat of any consequence you need to do your due diligence.
> 
> ...


This is a summary of the current (everchanging) California state tax code as it applies to the purchase of vessels in California. If you have any questions you should take it up with a Maritime Tax Law firm like Weil & Associates,

http://www.weilmaritime.com/practice-yachting-sales.php

who come very highly recommended. I have purchased boats, semi trucks, and heavy machinery in California for resale or use outside the state of California. A USCG registered vessel would definitely qualify under this law as exempt if you meet the condition of the exemption. Please not the exemption for taking it out of the state applies even if you have the boat in a marina for repairs or refitting. I hope this helps clear up any questions on this issue.



> The State of California will assess sales tax (for new vessels) or use tax (for used vessels) if the boat was (1) purchased in California; OR (2) purchased for "use" in California. California's territorial boundary extends three miles into the ocean, so if the purchase can be structured to close more than three miles offshore (an "Offshore Delivery"), the buyer will satisfy the first prong of the test. The second prong involves a subjective analysis of the buyer's intended use at the time of the purchase, which is a little more complicated.
> 
> A buyer's true "intent" is impossible to determine through any objective test, so a "presumptive test" was established, where a buyer who could prove that the boat was used outside of California for a particular time period after the purchase was presumed to have purchased it for use outside of California. For many years, the required time period was 90 days. Under that test, a buyer who could prove that he or she used the boat outside of California for more than 90 days during their first six months of ownership was "presumed" to have purchased the boat for use outside of California.
> 
> ...


----------



## JeffBurright (Apr 22, 2009)

As far as DIY yards, I recommend the Ilwaco boat yard at the mouth of the Columbia River. We hauled out our 30' boat there, had a bottom wash and did a month's worth of heavy work on her - electricity and all - for around $450. It's the best deal we've come across, and the people there are very nice. Bellingham also has a pretty inexpensive DIY yard (at least it was DIY in 2008) with lots of good contractors on hand. I can't remember the name though, sorry.

Good luck!


----------



## JulieMor (Sep 5, 2011)

CheckedOutRob said:


> As the OP on this thread I should follow up on the title of this post.
> 
> I just did walk away from the Passport 40 this week. Long flight to WA to check it out. Needed new teak deck, engine oil in bilge, chainplates looked bad, leaks from saloon windows, ugliest mast I've ever seen -painted brown, mainsail shot, several diesel leaks, smelly head, dodger shot, rig had issues etc, etc.
> BUT fantastic news!!!! I'm closing on an amazingly good shape Nordic 44 next week.


Congratulations on your new purchase! Make sure to post some pics and let us know how new ownership is going.


----------



## Lurking and Looking (Sep 17, 2013)

Congrats on your potential escape from a money pit.

I have read this post from the beginning as one of the boats I am looking at needing work... I suspect the owner wants to sell because of the $7,000 quote he got from the yard... this person is the type of person who is "beyond working on his own boat" , so ultimately it may benefit me.

But back on point, I can understand the attraction to titanium, but lets looks at a couple of issues not hit on;

1) chainplates rarely fail due to "rust through"...

2) if you do have rust on a chainplate, it shows you have a leak somewhere that you may not readily show up on a non rusting titanium chainplate.

3) titanium CAN FAIL - anything and everything man-made can and probably will fail at some point.

4) the idea that you can install titanium chainplates "and NEVER have to look at them again" is idiotic... at best you won't be replacing them any time soon. No sealant that you use to embed the caps to the deck will last "forever", not even butyl tape.

5) unless you have titanium caps made, your old stainless ones will rust while you ignore your chainplates.

6) how long do you plan on owning this boat?

Stainless chainplates have been in use for some time, easy to get, easy to make at almost any quality metal fabrication shop in the world.

Titanium has a "cool" factor and is expensive to tool, but may be hard to get in the middle of nowhere at a reasonable cost when your indistructable chainplates fails because you never looked at them again...

The idea of considering anything "maintenance free" is a scary thought when talking about a sailboat maybe 1,000 miles from any land...


----------



## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

FWIW. I also need to change my chain plates. I have looked at many materials including titanium, silicon bronze, and 316 stainless. At one point I was going to go titanium, but the questionable source of the lower cost material and the high cost of US material put an end to that idea. The problem with machining the material also adds to the compexitity.

Next idea was to use silicon bronze. I did find a source of the silicon bronze but others have pointed out it might not be as strong as stainless and thus the plate may elongate over time or the clevis pin holes may elongate. I think silicon bronze would be ok (and many boats uses them) but I would want to make the plate thicker to compensate for pontential loss of strength. With my boat, make the plates thicker and or wider is complex and difficult as mounting would need modification.

So it looks like I will replace in kind with 316 stainless along with quality 316 ss nuts and bolts.

The other thing to think about is the bolts holding your chain plates. I have removed some of my 316 ss bolts and some have wasted away. So even if you have titanium plates, the bolts should also be titanium or you will still have problems with corrosion.


----------



## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

Friend recently replaced their chain plates with titanium. The chain plates included an elaborate weldment buried in a composite knee. Therefore, the cost to remove and reinstall the chainplates far exceeded the cost of the chainplates. These folks plan to undertake a fast circumnavigation shortly. Although their boat is 30 years old, the decision to go with titanium seems obvious given the construction and their sailing plans.

Their solution wouldn't fit others.


----------



## svlittlewing (Oct 30, 2008)

I'm looking for a fabricator in the Annapolis area for my chainplates. Who made yours? Thanks.


----------

