# is irwin in the same class as hunter?



## rmeador (Jan 16, 2010)

During my boat search, I was repeatedly warned away from Hunters (even though they're very nice inside and very cheaply priced) because they apparently are lower quality. I was told by two different people that they've seen Hunters where the chainplates have actually pulled the deck up. So they're seemingly not the strongest boat around.

Since my repeated offers on a Pearson 36 that I really like have been rejected, I've had to start searching again... the options are few at this point. One promising one is 1984 Irwin 38 center cockpit which I liked the looks of, but my broker tried to discourage me. At first he said it's a strong hull but cheaply finished inside, then when I asked if it was similar to a Hunter he said it was in the same class (which seems at odds with his assertion that the hull is strong).

So what do you think? Are Hunters (80's models in particular) bad quality? How do they compare to Irwins? Would you recommend either for liveaboard? I do want a capable sailing boat, so sailing characteristics and seaworthiness are important to me, but I don't plan on doing any bluewater cruising. Thanks.


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## McMikeJr (Dec 7, 2008)

I can't be much help, but I'll tell you what I know. 

Hunter - I'm not a big fan. I've heard Hunter owners say, "it's just as good as a Catalina," but I've never met a Catalina owner (myself included) who was willing to reciprocate. As with anything, though, there are folks who disagree; if nobody liked Hunters there wouldn't be any out there! I'm not a big fan of Hunter cabins, that's just personal preference, though.

Irwin - have a friend with an Irwin 40 who's very happy with it. The interior didn't seem cheap at all, but I've only been onboard a few times. I'd be a little leery of a center cockpit; I've never sailed one (so some of the good folks here can help out), but I hear the air circulation below is almost non-existent.


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## rmeador (Jan 16, 2010)

I've never sailed a center cockpit either, but the two center cockpit boats that I've come across in my boat search are two of my favorites. I really like the design, though I don't know how well it works in 38' (the LOA is 40'... is it perhaps the same as what your friend has and he's been telling you the LOA instead of the on-deck length?).

The other CC boat was a Mariner 39, which I like a ton, even though the saloon is a little cramped, but it's just too expensive. The boat was on the hard when I saw it, but the air circulation seemed fine. I can't imagine why it would be bad if you left the door(s) to the rear cabin open.


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## k1vsk (Jul 16, 2001)

The first thing I'd suggest is that anyone who speaks in generalities usually isn't very knowledgeable. General condemnation of a broad range of boats or any single manufacturer, particularly one which sells thousands of boats, is pretty silly. It should be obvious that one of the largest production boat mfgs doesn't stay in business building boats on which the chainplates pull through.

I am aware this was a popular story for a while and saw some pictures of it happening on a Hunter but it also happens on many other boats lacking proper care and maintenance. I've also seen Catalinas built with a wood mast step which is the dumbest thing I've ever seen in boat construction but that doesn't make all Catalinas bad.

I can tell you that I once owned an Irwin 38 (forgot the year) as well as a Hunter, both of which presented the same set of typical maintenance issues as any gold-platter, full keel wallower with which I had experience.

Much more important than the nameplate is how well maintained the boat is and how well treated she is.

The biggest issue I recall on our Irwin were the window leaks as they were bedded in a wood frame common to many manufacturers of that era. The Hunter we had was trouble-free for 7 or 8 years during which we owned her.

Neither are the "strongest" (read - heavy) boats around nor were they poorly designed or constructed. The Irwin, because of it's huge interior volume, was one of the most popular liveaboards.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Stay away form the Irwin 53 and 54 footers...they are all junk.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................stay away at least until I buy mine then you can get one...


Agreed Generalities have no place in decision making....ask me specific questions I will give you unbiased honest answers....about my boat anyway


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## FSMike (Jan 15, 2010)

In my experience, I think you will find that most Hunters will outsail most Irwins.
Yeah, I know, another generality. No extra charge.


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## rmeador (Jan 16, 2010)

If someone could compare the sailing characteristics of the Irwin 38 and a Pearson 36, that would be very useful to me. If you have the knowledge, throwing in a comparison to the Mariner 39 would be cool too.

So I take it most of you would consider a Hunter or an Irwin suitable for coastal cruising and liveaboard, but probably wouldn't take it across an ocean? What about to Bermuda? What about the Bahamas/Caribbean? I doubt I'm going to be going anywhere non-coastal, but I'm just looking for the comparison.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

rmeador said:


> So I take it most of you would consider a Hunter or an Irwin suitable for coastal cruising and liveaboard, but probably wouldn't take it across an ocean? What about to Bermuda? What about the Bahamas/Caribbean? I doubt I'm going to be going anywhere non-coastal, but I'm just looking for the comparison.


There again to broad of generalities..

There are lager hunters and Irwin's in all parts of the world...they dint fly there.

Im making modification to mine to be able to sail to just about anywhere but the southern ocean.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

The Hunter 42 Passage from the early 90s is a good Bahamas Caribbean boat. Great aft cabin with centreline queen and good interior layout. 

Being a bit of a Luddite I would prefer the earlir versions as they had a backstay. 

There are supposed to be access issues to some of the interior fittings but owners tell me just make a hole and fit a hatch no biggie!

I came close to buying one but the owner hung on for more money and the boat is still on the market!


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

At various times I have literally looked at same year and size used Hunter, Catalina's and Beneteaus one right after the other. Although there were odd things about each of them, in a general sense, the Beneteaus held up best, then Hunter, then Catalinas, which looked the most beat to death of the three. In talking to surveyors over the years, most seemed to agree that Hunter did the best job of the three in terms of meeting ABYC and ABS building standards of the three. 

In terms of Irwin, they were pretty much the Hunters of their day. The ketches were cheaply built for a value oriented market. Sailing ability was nothing to write home about. When compared to the ketch version of the Pearson 365 I would think that the sailing ability was not better or worse, but the build quality on the Irwin would be a big step down. 

Hunters of the 1980's were actually pretty well constructed and might actually be a step up from the Irwin of that period. 
Jeff


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## SimonV (Jul 6, 2006)

I will also say that some of the hunters from the 80 were fine strong boats I can say I looked at a few Hunter 37s (cheribine or something he was the designer that was snapped up by one of the euro boat builders or it could have been the other way round)


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## jordanship (Jun 15, 2009)

> So I take it most of you would consider a Hunter or an Irwin suitable for coastal cruising and liveaboard, but probably wouldn't take it across an ocean? What about to Bermuda? What about the Bahamas/Caribbean? I doubt I'm going to be going anywhere non-coastal, but I'm just looking for the comparison.


Right on. Pick your weather windows, and you will be for sure alright to Bermuda, Bahamas, and Caribbean. People who have not been offshore do not realize the constant stress on a boat out there. It is like a cloth hanger. You can bend it once, twice, but if you bend the metal a certain amount of times, it will break, figuratively I mean.

Irwins have inconsistent build quality. I have talked to surveyors and been on surveys. Some can be built really well actually, but others have bad hardware, leak, and flex. And there is no rhyme or reason about which model or years are good or bad. The story goes that they could build two yachts side by side at the factory on Tampa Bay. One could come out excellent and the other border on criminal.


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## kwaltersmi (Aug 14, 2006)

We've been very happy with our Irwin and have been cruising it extensively on the Great Lakes. The only issue we've noted in our 1978 model is leaking along some spots on the hull-to-deck joint. Generally speaking from my own experience aboard boats of this vintage, I'd say Irwin build quality seems on par with the Hunter/Catalina/Beneteau/Pearson boats of this era. We would happily buy another Irwin for coastal cruising if she surveyed well, which is the true test for older boats anyway, regardless of make.


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

jordanship said:


> Irwins have inconsistent build quality. I have talked to surveyors and been on surveys. Some can be built really well actually, but others have bad hardware, leak, and flex. And there is no rhyme or reason about which model or years are good or bad. The story goes that they could build two yachts side by side at the factory on Tampa Bay. One could come out excellent and the other border on criminal.


Probably a true story...to some extent...More then likely induced when Ted Left the company.

He came back to straighten those wrongs out but by then the Luxury Tax of the Eighties took its toll on the whole industry and he could never pull Irwin's image out of the toilet before the inevitable.

Id like to know what all the ballyhoo is all about really....does it really boil down to Leaks and cheap materials being used?..or a hand full of shoddy hulls?....if so Big deal!..There are Hundreds of good ones.

Or is it the hulls aren't 1" thick?...or is it that they were built on the cutting edge of what people wanted at the time affordable "Floating condos" for coastal cruising?
Ted was if not the originator of the raised salon he was the first major builder to incorporate it. He was also a sail maker with a racing background so he wanted relatively fast and light boats...Several of his boast were race record holders.

All boats leak sooner or later...all wood rots on boats sooner or later...I have had both some rotted wood and some leaks...my boats 27 years old and didn't have the best of care with the PO before I picked it up.

Im still waiting for specific question any might have about my boat and I will answer them honestly...there are several things I don't like about the build quality..but Im impressed with several others. Im no boat expert but the few I have been around all have issues to some degree...apparently most Irwin's and Hunter have more then there fair share from the bad rap they seem to get...Mine doesn't seem to line up with it though so that is all I can comment on.

I wish my hull was 1/4" thicker everywhere, I wish my chain plates were not so difficult to access, I wish the ports were metal and not plastic, I wish the boat came from the factory with an electric windless and a wash down pump, I wish there were overhead hand rails for greater safety moving about the cabin, I wish there were fewer through hulls, I wish I could have bought it brand new and made it mine right off the factory floor.

Other then that Im thankful I own it now and am having some things upgraded to my needs...Its a fine boat, not for every one or to everyone's liking....but which boat is?..

Most Hunters and all Irwin's under 53' were not made for blue water...people need to quit expecting that out of them with out a major rebuild/upgrade for that purpose.

I have found a couple new leaks since my boat has been on the hard...I will deal with them and fix them right.. My Tabbing is 3 to 8" everywhere and I have yet to find any of it separated or broken loose..I have yet to notice any oil canning of the hull but haven't had very much opportunity to be 100% sure of that in a real seaway. The deck hardware is adequate for the task but could all be beefed up one notch to satisfy those it bothers. The boat sails smartly and is driven fairly easily you wont win and light wind races or point of sail competitions but other then the hand full of Citation series designs, none of Irwin's boats were built to compete anyway...far and away the most famous and successful was Razzel Dazzel the 41' sloop.

I have not personally had the opportunity to sail on a myriad of boats like may of the experienced guys here but I can tell you in a big blow in protected waters you will feel safe on my boat...I have been there with a newbie crew and didn't have a worry.

I am actually secretly glad Irwin's have a tainted reputation..it keeps them affordable....I really do intent to purchase 54' some day if the Lord allows.

As far as hunters go...I have had one birth next to me( a 42 I believe) and have sat and pondered over that boat for hours...seemed like a fine boat to me.

Do your inspection..talk to other owners...one that don't have their boats up for sail and you will get a better "Truer" picture of what your asking here.

Would you ask a Ford truck owner what he thinks of Chevy's?

There will always be those who will lie or defend their boats...Im not one of those...there are things I wish Ted would have done differently...but its a boat...it floats high and dry , sails well or at least well enough to serve its purpose, is very comfortable to be aboard ( mine is anyway ) is pleasing to the eye to many as they tell me so... and it was affordable...way more pluses then minus.

Would I bash around the horn in it...Heck no!...Will I sail it to Hawaii/Mexico/Caribbean ..I plan to!.....Possibly the whole Pacific Rim if all goes well....If it starts to fall apart I will have been proven wrong..

Its already been to the Bahamas, Caribbean and through the Canal with a bash up the coast to California.

I wish I would have bashed it up to Washington...My troubles would have been minute in retrospect...


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## Stillraining (Jan 11, 2008)

Stupid program would not let me edit to add this photo of the 41' Irwin Sloop Razzel Dazzel


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

This is going in the Salt's thread. GREAT write up Still.



Stillraining said:


> Probably a true story...to some extent...More then likely induced when Ted Left the company.
> 
> He came back to straighten those wrongs out but by then the Luxury Tax of the Eighties took its toll on the whole industry and he could never pull Irwin's image out of the toilet before the inevitable.
> 
> ...


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## dpoissant (Sep 28, 2008)

I have a 1984 38 Irwin Center Cockpit and love it.....as said in prior posts you are not scooting across and ocean in one but they are great coastal cruisers and I had my shipped to the great lakes and is perfect for our sailing needs. If you are looking for speed she not going to be the boat for you, however if a nice comfortable liveaboard is what you are shooting for its right up your alley.


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## EJO (Jan 10, 2010)

rmeador Here you go

Performance Comparison 
LOA Irwin 38 CC 38.29 Pearson 38 37.5

LWL Irwin 38 CC 32.17 Pearson 38 29.58

Beam Irwin 38 CC 12.16 Pearson 38 12.33

Displacement Irwin 38 CC 19385 Pearson 38 15175

Sail Area Irwin 38 CC 797 Pearson 38 665

Capsize Ratio Irwin 38 CC 1.81 Pearson 38 1.99

Hull Speed Irwin 38 CC 7.6 Pearson 38 7.29

Sail Area to Displacement Irwin 38 CC 17.67 Pearson 38 17.36

Displacement to LWL Irwin 38 CC 260 Pearson 38 262

LWL to Beam Irwin 38 CC 2.65 Pearson 38 2.4

Motion Comfort Irwin 38 CC 31.36 Pearson 38 25.65

Pounds/Inch Irwin 38 CC 1398 Pearson 38 1303

Again this should help. You can find the above info @ Sail Calculator Pro v3.53 - 2000+ boats

I found this website to be very helpful in quick elimination of comparing boats. But as said B-4 it is how well any boat has been maintained especially when looking at older (25 plus years) boats. We all know Pearson and Tartan built very solid boats but look at the weight difference above and LWL = faster hull speed, higher comfort ratio, lower capsize ratio, etc. I think you would do good with an Irwin. I find my old Irwin to be a solid capable and fast sailer (when there's wind) and although I own her only for a short period we love her.
You can make any boat pretty inside and give her extra amenities but you can only do so if she was built and still is solid as most Irwins I looked at were and for a much more reasonable price than the good Pearsons. Hunters are high volume production boats that look and sail great but will they last???
There are several Irwins of various sizes in our yacht club PMYC they are no racers but great family cruiser that cross Lake Michigan back and forth and or sail the Chi-Mac race without problems.
Happy sailing.

EJO
s/v SAILMATES 1973 Irwin 32 Classic


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## w1651 (May 2, 2010)

> I think you would do good with an Irwin. I find my old Irwin to be a solid capable and fast sailer (when there's wind) and although I own her only for a short period we love her.


I keep seeing this here. You people do know how a sailboat works don't you? If so then you understand no sailboat moves without wind.

If your cruising with the yanmar then you Ain't sailin !!


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## bobmcgov (Jul 19, 2007)

w1651 said:


> I keep seeing this here. You people do know how a sailboat works don't you? If so then you understand no sailboat moves without wind.
> 
> If your cruising with the yanmar then you Ain't sailin !!


Thank you for that contribution.

Really.

Thanks.


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## EJO (Jan 10, 2010)

*pulling quotes*

W1651
Apparently you don't see, because you pull a sentence from a thread that said specifically that a SAILBOAT was a fast sailer when there was good wind in contrast to being a very slow sailer with a little wind. i.e. we don't cruise when there's no wind. 
Nowhere was there a diesel (Yanmar) mentioned. The boat referenced in the thread doesn't even have a Yanmar and her engine is used to get out and back through the channel and slip, any other time she is sailed which is at least 3 times a week for 5-1/2 to 6 months in cold Michigan.
Happy sailing.

EJO
s/v _SAILMATES_ 1973 IRWIN 32 Classic


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## EJO (Jan 10, 2010)

So "rmeador" what did you buy? We have sailed our 32' another couple of weeks of which some had 6-8 ft (short inter-fall) waves in 30 plus knts. wind and she handled fine. The boat can handle it, it is the crew that can't. You could sail that Irwin across the Caribbean, but not with 'Igor' approaching. Agai I think she's a great old 38 plus years vessel and sailed her into the 60ft wide river channel between the pier-heads at 6.5 knts the other night with a 35deg heel. We don't need no 'yanmar' to get into the harbor. What a rush. She's a great boat, we'll make her pretty this winter, but still enjoy her untill the freezing start which might be soon.
Hope you're sailing in a Irwin, Pearson or Hunter, because as long as the PO's maintained them they will be fun for you without a headache.
Happy Sailing.


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## rmeador (Jan 16, 2010)

I actually ended up buying a 1979 Gulfstar 37. The closing is Wednesday, so I haven't taken possession yet. During the sea trial, I was very impressed at how fast she sailed.


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## EJO (Jan 10, 2010)

That is and sounds like a great boat, I'm jealous for the extra room and speed you'll have. Hope all goes well and you can still enjoy her this year.


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