# 35 year old standing rigging - but rigger says it's ok



## tominny (Aug 30, 2011)

The rigging on my 1977 tartan 34C is probably the original. At the very least the PO has not replaced it and he had the boat for 15 years, all the time in Long Island Sound.

I just had a professional rigger inspect the lower parts and he said it is fine and does not need replacement. That was even after I told him that I am planning to the the boat to the Bahamas in Nov (between Gulf Stream and coast as much as possible). He offered to go up and inspect there as well, remove spreader boots, etc. He has an established rigging shop and seem professional.

What do people think about this? I am tempted to believe and save the money for a full replacement, but it contradicts what I have read in many places (replace everything after 15+ years).


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

Is the rigger going to take the trip with you. Is he willing to risk is wekk being and life?

So how much do you trust a 35 year only strand of wire after 35 yaers in the sun/ ice and rain to stay upright while you travel offshore. Many times the weakness and breakage may go sight unseen until the failure occurs. You are already living on borrowed time

Common sense and prudence say I would want to feel secure in my rig, not worry whether it will continue to outkive its time of usefullness.

Replace it.

Dave


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

> I just had a professional rigger inspect the lower parts and he said it is fine and does not need replacement.


I don't know how he could say it doesn't need replacement until he has inspected both ends. He was perhaps making an educated guess as to the condition of the upper fittings. It is more common for the lower fittings to go first, but I've seen the opposite a few times.

When I do an inspection and the owner tells me that the rigging is over 15 years old. I tell them, before I begin, that even if I don't find any obvious defects or problems, I'm still going to recommend a re-rig. This is based on the information that I get from the vendors that I buy my wire and fittings from. As well as personal experience.

I think that the fact that you made a post about it indicates you are somewhat wary and something is telling you that you should be concerned. 
Imagine how that feeling will be amplified when you're miles off shore in rough seas and squall on the horizon. 
Peace of mind is often worth a lot.

And don't forget the chainplates. They probably haven't been inspected, much less replaced either.


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## PeterSailer (Mar 20, 2010)

I used to sail on a 40 year old boat, we sailed her hard and we got healed over, cabin side almost in the water, by unexpected squales while having all sails up... She had her original rigging, but on those days, pounding hard when sailing up wind, I would turn around and look at the back stay and wounder, what if??

What I'm saying here is that your standing rigging might still be good, but why would you take any chances?

Pierre


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## tommays (Sep 9, 2008)

My J24 standing and running rigging was WELL KEPT and it was still for crap after after 20 something years


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

knothead said:


> I'm still going to recommend a re-rig. This is based on the information that I get from the vendors that I buy my wire and fittings from.


Not exactly an impartial source. 
You: You think I should spend my money on your equipment, even if it seems to be in good shape?
Vendor: Hmmm... let me check my bottom line. Yes! Change it all at once! And those chain plates as well!

I know, I'm joking, but my point is that if a reputable expert, who stands to gain financially (implied), thinks it is fine, either find another rigger because you don't trust his/her judgement, or go with it. Disclosure: I know diddly about the structural integrity of Stainless Steel at any age.


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## misfits (Dec 9, 2011)

I think replacing 35 year old standing rigging is wise but you'll also want to check out the chain plates. Tartans are great boats but this is one area the older boats seem to have problems with.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

rbrasi said:


> Not exactly an impartial source.
> You: You think I should spend my money on your equipment, even if it seems to be in good shape?
> Vendor: Hmmm... let me check my bottom line. Yes! Change it all at once! And those chain plates as well!
> 
> I know, I'm joking, but my point is that if a reputable expert, who stands to gain financially (implied), thinks it is fine, either find another rigger because you don't trust his/her judgement, or go with it. Disclosure: I know diddly about the structural integrity of Stainless Steel at any age.


Fortunately or unfortunately, I'm not sure which, there is a mindset in this as well as many other industries to cover one's ass. So there will nearly always be a tendency on the part of a manufacturer or vendor, and the installer to include a big safety margin. 
When I meet the customer face to face, I have to make sure that they understand that I'm speaking at one moment as a businessman, one moment as a fellow sailor, and one moment as a potential long term friend. One never knows. So I try to cover all the bases. 
On paper, if a rig is 15 plus years. I'm going to recommend a re-rig. I often do inspections for owners who are trying to get insurance. I can't afford not to be over cautious. 
As a fellow sailor, I understand the concept of a cruising kitty and limited budget, so I give my opinion on just how long and under what conditions they might be able to get more life out of it. 
I try to be completely honest with people while emphasizing the peace of mind factor. 
Of course, the fact that I have to make a living influences my opinions, but I try to be honest about that as well.
I never try to sell someone something that I don't honestly think that they want or need. 
It does seem though, that rigging is low on the priority list for many. 
I saw one guy spend over ten grand on radios, chart plotters and all kinds of stuff and completely disregard the cracked swages that my inspection revealed. They sailed off to the Caribbean. 
But by and large most of my customers tell me that they "just want it done right". 
I can only try to do my best for my customers based on my experience, the information I get from others and my conscience. I feel that most businesses are run by people like that too.


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## xort (Aug 4, 2006)

There's one very important data point missing...fresh water or salt water.

I was having a chat with a very experienced rigger. He said he has NEVER seen a failure of a rig on a boat always kept in fresh water going back to 70's vintage boats; unless caused by damage or other error.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

Change it.


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## Bradhamlet (Nov 8, 2002)

One nice summer day I climb the mast with the mast climber with the intent to install a windex up at the mast head. After the install went well, I thought maybe I should inspect the tangs/wire up there. Sure enough there was a 3/4" crack in the 1" tang(fitting). I almost pissed myself as I slowly worked my way down the mast. The rigging looked great at deck level and there was no way I could have seen this crack at deck level. Any way the rigging was 20 years old and I replaced all the stays.Just saying that deck level is only 1/2 the story.
Brad
Lancer 36


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## sww914 (Oct 25, 2008)

My friend had a similar aged Columbia with original wire. He had it inspected and it passed. A few weeks later a shroud broke and the top 1/3 of the mast landed in the cockpit. Nobody was hurt.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Change it!

Gary


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

First, get a new rigger. A professional rigger who is not suspect of rigging that is at least 15 years old and could be as old as 35 is incompetent. I have read quite a few descriptions of riggers cutting open swayed fittings to find cracks that had not yet reached the surface. IOW, just because you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't lurking under the surface.

Get a new rigger and replace everything. This is your life and you are trying to justify saving a few bucks.


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

Rig failure is a probability. The risk starts to increase at ten years and increases by time. 35 years is really long but your rig seems to bypass the probabilities in 25 years of time. Your rig might still hold for another 35 years but to be on the safe side is better.


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## billyruffn (Sep 21, 2004)

New wire all around! It's cheaper than a new mast, to say nothing of the people who get hurt when it comes down.


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## okapi3 (Apr 14, 2007)

I am getting ready to re-rig my 1988 PSC 31 which still has its original rigging, just because of its age, even though it "looks good" on inspection. I do ocean sailing.

*My question is:* If the turnbuckles also "look good" do I need to replace them too? 
How often do turnbuckles suddenly fail without obvious signs of weakening?

And is it recommended to replace the headstay furler at the same time (Harken MKIV origianl equipment)? This is obviously a BIG expense which I would like to avoid if not a major safety issue. It is working fine but definitely old.

Thanks in advance for your advice and thoughts.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

It is funny how many different opinions there are on this subject. I seem to recall another thread not to long ago where someone posted pigs of their standing rigging that looked obviously corroded, and yet those of us advising replacement were accused of "trying to scare" the guy, and that it is probably fine! Now we have a situation where a professional rigger has rendered an opinion that something looks fine, and people accuse him of being incompetent and unprofessional! Perhaps he is just being honest? By all means get a second opinion, and pay for a more thorough inspection, but don't panic just because it is old.

My standing rigging is the original rod rigging that came on the boat (as far as I know), and it is in excellent condition. It has been inspected and given a clean bill of health. Naturally I have been given the usual sales pitch and butt-covering statements regarding the possibility that something "could" fail even though it looks fine, but I do take those with a grain of salt.

Having said that, I am budgeting for a major mast overhaul, including standing rigging, but in the meantime I am not worried that my mast is going to fall down just because my rigging is old!


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

SchockT said:


> It is funny how many different opinions there are on this subject. *I seem to recall another thread not to long ago where someone posted pigs of their standing rigging that looked obviously corroded, and yet those of us advising replacement were accused of "trying to scare" the guy, and that it is probably fine!* Now we have a situation where a professional rigger has rendered an opinion that something looks fine, and people accuse him of being incompetent and unprofessional! Perhaps he is just being honest? By all means get a second opinion, and pay for a more thorough inspection, but don't panic just because it is old.
> 
> My standing rigging is the original rod rigging that came on the boat (as far as I know), and it is in excellent condition. It has been inspected and given a clean bill of health. Naturally I have been given the usual sales pitch and butt-covering statements regarding the possibility that something "could" fail even though it looks fine, but I do take those with a grain of salt.
> 
> Having said that, I am budgeting for a major mast overhaul, including standing rigging, but in the meantime I am not worried that my mast is going to fall down just because my rigging is old!


The other thread that you refer to was about Nico-pressed eyes. The pics that the owner posted showed some surface corrosion. That is normal. The turnbuckle also looked fine. 
This thread is about a hypothetical situation where no one has seen any pics and the rigger didn't even go aloft. 
I made the statement about not scaring the other fellow because his Nico-pressed eye looked fine in my opinion. 
I, and I would guess others are basing their opinions in this case on Tominny's statement that the rigging is probably 35 years old.

Apples and oranges.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

knothead said:


> The pics that the owner posted showed some surface corrosion. That is normal.


Not in my world! Go for a walk through the average marina and see how many boats have standing rigging covered in corrosion like that! I certainly don't see that, and if I did I would be concerned about the rest of the rigging, including the Nicro fittings! (And it is true, I dislike nicro fittings for that application, but maybe that is just me!)


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

SchockT said:


> *Not in my world!* Go for a walk through the average marina and see how many boats have standing rigging covered in corrosion like that! I certainly don't see that, and if I did I would be concerned about the rest of the rigging, including the Nicro fittings! (And it is true, I dislike nicro fittings for that application, but maybe that is just me!)


Your world is limited.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Reading my last post, I realize it sounds rude. Sorry. 
What I mean is that in a lot of places in the world, that rigging and the extent of the surface corrosion would be of little concern. But I do rigging in Florida and you live in B.C. 
I absolutely believe you when you say you don't see that kind of corrosion very often in your local marinas. But you live in a cold northern climate. In Florida, a moderate amount of surface corrosion is pretty normal.


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## boatpoker (Jul 21, 2008)

You have to face facts. Nothing lasts forever and stainless steel frequently corrodes from the inside out often with little or no visible external indication. 35yrs is pushing your luck regardless of your location.


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## Tree (Oct 10, 2004)

Northern climates...... some amount of a slower deteriation of your standing rigging.

Second thought... do you know if its had some amount of time out of the marine environment? (stored on the hard for example)..... My point is, years are only one measure. 

Your 35 years could have been hard service ..... or who know what. Inspect it and then inspect it again. 

Many things can go bad on a boat. Don't obsess about every little thing that can go bad. If you do...... You will never sleep again! 

Age is only one measure.

Just my opinion...... and yes, I have an older boat that I trust and enjoy!


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

If there are so many unknows with how long SS wire rigging will last (some say 7 years others say 10), why don't rig builders build rigs that have backup stays and shrouds. Say use a double back stay rig and always have lower forward and aft shrouds. On the bow always have the forestay as well as an inner forestay. Maybe add some running back stays to boot.

Seems to me we put a lot of faith in a single strand of wire. A wire that no one really knows if or when it will fail. And a wire that if it does fail, could bring the entire rig down.

Also, I believe the older wire and fittings were of higher quality than much of what is made today. So that 35 year old rig may be in better shape than what a new rig made out of inferior stuff would be. To bad rigging materials do not have somthing like a UL label stating that it has met minimum quality and strength characteristics.


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## bratzcpa (Oct 18, 2011)

I was the poster in that "other thread" about the NicoPress fittings.

Yes, I have decided to replace the standing rigging when I bring it in for the winter (next month). It will cost me a single "boat buck" ($1,000) to do it. The 'insurance factor' is worth it for me. I'm fairly new (compared to many of you out there), and absolutely need the boat to support me and what predicaments I put us into. 

Next year, we have a huge trip on the calendar (2 months in the Bahamas). This is the culmination of years and years of planning/saving/preparation. Take a chance on losing the mast in the 'gulf-stream-crossing' due to a sudden squall and 39 year old rigging?? . . . 'hell no'.

Just my two cents worth (lol, that's about all I have left after upgrading everything!!),
mark


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## SVTatia (May 7, 2007)

celenoglu said:


> Rig failure is a probability. The risk starts to increase at ten years and increases by time. 35 years is really long but your rig seems to bypass the probabilities in 25 years of time. Your rig might still hold for another 35 years but to be on the safe side is better.


Does rigging come with an expiry date?

The number of years by itself is meaningless. I would think that the defining factors are how, where and how much the boat has been sailing, no?


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

Does it matter if it's fresh water vs salt and northern (4-5 month season) vs year round and stored down and indoors during the 3/4 year off season...

My rigging is 34-35 yrs old and in seriously looks like new condition.... I take it down in winter, rub a nylon over it no snags, super clean, no corrosion, no discoloration...I eyeballed the fittings each end (sorry no nuclear irradiation) and they look sharp...what I would expect to see if I opened a new package..

I'd have a real hard time condeming it by age only...


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

SVTatia said:


> Does rigging come with an expiry date?
> 
> The number of years by itself is meaningless. I would think that the defining factors are how, where and how much the boat has been sailing, no?


I would tend to agree.

What I do not understand is why sail boat rigging has a life span according to riggers. All other rigging lifting equipment (like cranes, hoist, and rigging equipment used by construction contractors) does not have a useful life span. Its life is determined by visual inspection of the equipment and cables, splices and compression fittings. Contractors do not throw rigging equipment away due to age, it is disposed of when a certain amount of broken strands or cracks in the crimp coponents is visible. We do not restrand the golded gate bridge after a certain time frame, it is only done after visual inspection shows we have a problem.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

Bottom ends will be far more likely to deteriorate than the top ends. If the boat has lived most of its life in a marina, there is little chance of the rigging having deteriorated much. If it had tens of thousands of offshore miles on it , that would be a different story.
Boaters get scammed into changing their rigging on locally only cruising boats, far to often. You are lucky to have found an honest rigger, who will tell the truth, rather than try scam you into hiring him to relplace your rig.
Sun and rain have no effect on good stainless.
Bahamas is not a long offshore voyage, nor are any of the West Indies.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

casey1999 said:


> I would tend to agree.
> 
> What I do not understand is why sail boat rigging has a life span according to riggers. All other rigging lifting equipment (like cranes, hoist, and rigging equipment used by construction contractors) does not have a useful life span. Its life is determined by visual inspection of the equipment and cables, splices and compression fittings. Contractors do not throw rigging equipment away due to age, it is disposed of when a certain amount of broken strands or cracks in the crimp coponents is visible. We do not restrand the golded gate bridge after a certain time frame, it is only done after visual inspection shows we have a problem.


Is it true that cranes, hoists etc use regular steel. If so the difference may be that stainless behaves differently.

Another difference is on boats we use the swage fittings that can hide flaws that can't be inspected.

Another difference might be getting a regular saltwater bath.

I would also be interested in the engineering safety factors used. Is it higher on the crane?


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

If you look at how a cable is rigged to a crane you'll notice that every connection is open.You can instantly tell when it begins to fail. Most states require that cranes undergo some type of inspection on a regular basis. I know a guy that worked at Bethlehem Steel Company in Baltimore and he said state inspectors were there at least once a month doing safety checks on heavy equipment. Same was true at Sparrows Point Shipyards.

My swage fitting on my 27 Catalina's forestay covered a completely severed cable. There was no rust, no indication that anything was wrong, and just prior to the forestay's failure we were sailing in 20-knot winds with a full jib on a beam reach. Within seconds of furling in the jib the 1/4-inch stainless cable parted inside the lower swage fitting and the jib-sail, roller furling system, etc... slid into the waters of Chesapeake Bay's upper reaches. Quick thinking and lots of luck resulted in being able to salvage the sail and system before any serious damage occurred. The sail and roller furler were lashed to the lifelines, the old jib halyard was quickly utilized to stabilize the mast to the bow, the main was folded up and secured and the engine was fired up and we were headed back to the marina - hoping no other rigging would fail during the 4-hour trip.

The rigging had been inspected by a certified and very reputable marine surveyor just a year prior to the forestay failure. The surveyor said "There's really no way of determining whether or not the rigging is OK. Without some very expensive X-ray equipment, there's no way of seeing inside the fittings, so they could be OK, or ready to fall apart and no one could determine which is the case." He did, however, suggest that the rigging be replaced because it was 30 years old and original equipment. He was right!


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## paul323 (Mar 13, 2010)

I guess that in summary:

- It depends. Is the boat in fresh water or salt water? How often is it used? How hard is it sailed? Are extremes of temperature a problem? To take extreme examples, carefully coiled rigging stored somewhere in a dry warehouse for 35 years would probably be safe...if used in offshore racing, 5 years could be too much!

- I think also we are talking probabilities. After 15 years of typical use, the percentage failure rate is low. At 20 years, probability of failure is higher, at 25 higher still, etc. As Clint would say, "Do you feel lucky"?

- How do you intend to use the boat? If you are daysailing in light winds, you may decide the odds are in your favor. If you are crossing the Atlantic, that may change your risk tolerance. (If I was going offshore, I would replace my chainplates and standing rigging without hesitation)

There's lots of good advice here; your rigging may be fine at that age, if just depends on your unique situation.


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## jeffgauvin (Jul 17, 2008)

Lots of great points made, but you might just want to contact Tartan Yachts and ask them. I’m curious to see what they have to say. 

Tartan Yachts 
1920 Fairport Nursery Rd.
Fairport Harbor, Ohio 44077
Phone: 440-392-2628
Fax: 1-888-266-9070


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

davidpm said:


> Is it true that cranes, hoists etc use regular steel. If so the difference may be that stainless behaves differently.
> 
> Another difference is on boats we use the swage fittings that can hide flaws that can't be inspected.
> 
> ...


Where I work some lifting cables are stainless. I have spoken with rigging inspectors and they tell me the inspection requirements are the same for stainless as carbon steel- look for individual broken strands.

Crane safety factor is about 4 to 1, about the same as a sail boat.

Industrial lifting gear does use a swage type fitting. These are used mainly for lifting chokers but are found on all types of lifting equipment. Here are some pics:


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

travlineasy said:


> If you look at how a cable is rigged to a crane you'll notice that every connection is open.You can instantly tell when it begins to fail. Most states require that cranes undergo some type of inspection on a regular basis. I know a guy that worked at Bethlehem Steel Company in Baltimore and he said state inspectors were there at least once a month doing safety checks on heavy equipment. Same was true at Sparrows Point Shipyards.
> 
> My swage fitting on my 27 Catalina's forestay covered a completely severed cable. There was no rust, no indication that anything was wrong, and just prior to the forestay's failure we were sailing in 20-knot winds with a full jib on a beam reach. Within seconds of furling in the jib the 1/4-inch stainless cable parted inside the lower swage fitting and the jib-sail, roller furling system, etc... slid into the waters of Chesapeake Bay's upper reaches. Quick thinking and lots of luck resulted in being able to salvage the sail and system before any serious damage occurred. The sail and roller furler were lashed to the lifelines, the old jib halyard was quickly utilized to stabilize the mast to the bow, the main was folded up and secured and the engine was fired up and we were headed back to the marina - hoping no other rigging would fail during the 4-hour trip.
> 
> The rigging had been inspected by a certified and very reputable marine surveyor just a year prior to the forestay failure. The surveyor said "There's really no way of determining whether or not the rigging is OK. Without some very expensive X-ray equipment, there's no way of seeing inside the fittings, so they could be OK, or ready to fall apart and no one could determine which is the case." He did, however, suggest that the rigging be replaced because it was 30 years old and original equipment. He was right!


As my privious post show. There is a lot of rigging equipment that uses swage type fittings (chokers for example- which cranes typically attach to to lift equipment) and they are inspected reguarly, but they are not disposed of bast on an age. The other thing, if sailboat rigging cannot be inspected and cetified 100% that it is good for service, seems we got a problem. Either we use a different material (galvanized or bronze wire) or we have additional stays and shrouds to act as back ups. Seems we put a lot of faith into a single piece of wire that even an experienced rigging inspector cannot tell you "this wire is good for 25,000 miles of 25 knot sailing". When you get an industrial crane inspected they do not use x-ray, yet the inspection is assumed 100% reliable and in fact we do not have many crane failures if the inspections are done properly.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

deleted - Reason 'senior moment'.


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Yup youre right, had s senior moment ... I'll remove the post.

please remove your quote of my quote.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Well now I'm really confused. Why is their such a difference between crane and sailboat inspection.

Maybe it is shock loading that a boat gets that is particularly hard on the wire. 

Maybe the number of swage fittings used are so low in crane use it has not become a statistical problem that has been dealt with.

Larry Pardee prefers hand spliced wire on a thimble for that very reason. It is easy to inspect and more flexible without any hard spots.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

OK I think I got it.
http://www.ndttech.com/Papers/Crane wire rope damage and inspection methods.pdf

The first couple of paragraphs says the the most wear with wire rope in crane service is rolling over the pulleys caused damage to wire.

_Usually, fatigue breaks develop in segments of the rope surface that come into direct contact with a sheave or drum.​_
If that is the case then bad strands will show up before any other damage is critical in a crane.
With a boat since the wire don't move it can fail first in places that can not be seen.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

davidpm said:


> OK I think I got it.
> http://www.ndttech.com/Papers/Crane wire rope damage and inspection methods.pdf
> 
> The first couple of paragraphs says the the most wear with wire rope in crane service is rolling over the pulleys caused damage to wire.
> ...


That is a great articles, going to take me some time to fully understand. But what about the "chokers" that are often used with a crane? These chokers do not see a rolling load (although they would see a compression load) and the chockers usally have a crimp conection that creates an eye (see my previous post). And I still don't understand why sailboats do not have a better redundancy- know as "belts and suspenders" in the structural design trade. For example just because you break one wire on your rig should not bring your whole rig down, but it will based on the normal design of a sail boat rig.

Just saw this int the article, very interesting (would this pertain to sailboat rigging?):

"Two different philosophies have been used to effect rope retirement:
1. A Statutory Life Policy mandates rope retirement at certain prescribed intervals. (This means, the Statutory Life Policy places a maximum on the time a rope can be in service).

2. Retirement for Cause is based on retirement conditions that are evaluated periodically by nondestructive inspections. (This means, the Retirement-for-Cause approach requires that the rope must be retired when the deterioration exceeds a certain limit.)
Because a Statutory Life Policy is inherently wasteful, regulators have tended to adopt the Retirement-for-Cause approach wherever appropriate."


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## Stu Jackson (Jul 28, 2001)

What's so hard? The "He was right!" post said it all. I go about 10 years. $1K or less to protect a $55K or less boat makes good sense to me.

It's like saying: "I never have to change my oil, it's black all the time and at the right level."


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Stu Jackson said:


> What's so hard? The "He was right!" post said it all. I go about 10 years. $1K or less to protect a $55K or less boat makes good sense to me.


Don't quite follow your post. Do you change your rigging based on sound engineering judgement or a fear factor of the unknown?

For those that say change your rigging every (you choose), 7 or 10 or 15 or 20 or 35 years, do you also change the turnbuckels, pins, chainplates and mast fittings (tangs, bolts, spreaders, spreader mounts) at the same time? If not, why? If you cannot trust a rigging inspection, and you say you will change your rig every 10 years, why in year 9 day 364 is you rig ok, but at day 365 no longer any good?

We trust our lives to about a 1/4 thick piece of rubber for 80,000 miles (tires)with only doing a brief visual inspection, why cannot a rig inspection be trusted?

Just yesterday I picked up a p/u truck load of lifting gear that had just gone through an annual inspection (chain hoist, chokers rated to 9,000 lbs that have swaged eyes, slings, ect.). All that was done is a visual inspection. This equipment like your boat rigging, a failure could kill someone, yet only a visual is done. Also talked with the rigging inspector as to how a 100 ton mobile crane is tested, they do a 125% lift, but then perform only a visual inspection of the cable and fittings- no x-ray.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

It's far easier to determine the conditiion of galvanized rigging with a visual than with stainless. You can replace galv rigging ten times as often, for the price of replacing stainless.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Brent Swain said:


> It's far easier to determine *the conditiion of galvanized rigging with a visual than with stainless*. You can replace galv rigging ten times as often, for the price of replacing stainless.


After reading the thread I am confused how riggers work in US. In Europe they recommend to check the rig after 7 years. Okay it may be a bit too much and I personally would make it at 10 years. But I don't mean a visual check, that should be made every year, I mean they take the rig down and pass on x rays every peace that is subject to considerable strain.

How can someone that calls himself a rigger look to a 35 old rig and after a visual inspection declare it sound? I am really confused 

Regards

Paulo


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

PCP said:


> After reading the thread I am confused how riggers work in US. In Europe they recommend to check the rig after 7 years. Okay it may be a bit too much and I personally would make it at 10 years. But I don't mean a visual check, that should be made every year, I mean they take the rig down and pass on x rays every peace that is subject to considerable strain.
> 
> How can someone that calls himself a rigger look to a 35 old rig and after a visual inspection declare it sound? I am really confused
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input. I am also confused. Riggers here never use x-ray (maybe on high tech race boats like Americas Cup and Volvo, but not your typical cruiser or racer).

What confuses me is that there is really no standard on rig inspection. Surprised more rigs do not fail.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

casey1999 said:


> Thanks for your input. I am also confused. Riggers here never use x-ray (maybe on high tech race boats like Americas Cup and Volvo, but not your typical cruiser or racer).
> 
> What confuses me is that there is really no standard on rig inspection. Surprised more rigs do not fail.


Yeah, that is my thought too! Particularly when it comes to coastal cruisers. You would think that if lots of rigs came down, and those failures could all be attributed to standing rigging of a certain age, then insurance companies would be all over it! As it is, I have never been asked how old my standing rigging is. The underwriters seem content with a general survey every few years.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

SchockT said:


> Yeah, that is my thought too! Particularly when it comes to coastal cruisers. You would think that if lots of rigs came down, and those failures could all be attributed to standing rigging of a certain age, then insurance companies would be all over it! As it is, I have never been asked how old my standing rigging is. The underwriters seem content with a general survey every few years.


And my insurance company, Progressive, doesn't even ask for that. I am all for inspecting and replacing rigging when required, but what is the real definition of "when required".

We can send a man to the moon (or at least we could at one time), but we cannot create a good standard for rig inspection/replacement.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Casey,

There is a good standard for when to replace standing rigging. The issue is that few if any boat owners are willing to follow the standard. 

The industry standard is a full disassembly and x-ray inspection when the rigging reaches 7 years old, and continuing x-ray inspections every year after that. This is the recommendation from the manufacturers of the parts, any deviation on this is the owners responsibility. Frankly the cost of doing this is pretty silly, since a full inspection is often close to the same as a re-rig for a small boat. But it is the standard.

As has been mentioned above, there are a number of factors that effect the service life of rigging, and so what may be acceptable on one boat is going to cause a major problem on another.

For instance, temprature is one of the critical factors in if, and at what speed crevice corrosion occurs. 316 stainless for instance doesn't suffer from crevice corrosion if the temprature is below 60F, while 304's critical temprature is 30F. So as long as your boat is never exposed to tempratures above 30F no worries.

Salinity is another issue, the above tempratures are based on the standard assumption for the salinity of oceans, but your local area may be significantly higher or lower. If in a high salinity environment you may have a bigger issue.


But corrosion is one one of the issues. Stainless steel also suffers from work hardening, which means that as the parts are stressed over time it actually becomes stronger. The problem is that at the same time it also becomes much more brittle. So how many load cycles you have on the rigging can be as much an issue as corrosion. This is independent of age, which is why offshore race programs replace their rigging every circumnavigation, or one year, whichever is sooner.

Frankly at 10 years I would replace rigging regardless of condition if I was headed down island, or taking what had been a daysailor for some serious cruising. Figure a few thousand dollars as cheap insurance when contemplating a $50,000 mast and rigging. Not to mention the potential harm that could occur from a rigging coming down mid ocean.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Stumble said:


> Casey,
> 
> There is a good standard for when to replace standing rigging. The issue is that few if any boat owners are willing to follow the standard.
> 
> ...


Could you post a link to this "Industry Standard"?

I have never heard of this before. None of the top manufacturers' literature that I have seen states anything about x-ray inspections (and this includes the top hardware and wire makers)
Regards


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Casey,

Take a look at http://www.navtec.net/assets/img/dataset/Manual_navtec-Rigging-Service.pdf which is Navtec's service recomendations. They are more conservative in some ways (inspections starting at 6 years old), and less in others (they allow for dye testing instead of x-ray testing).


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## rbrake (Sep 28, 2009)

As a former professional rigger I have seen older wire with a higher quality than newer wire and I would not replace it. I would pull the rig for a complete disassembly and good visual inspection with a 10 power glass, something that is more important than replacing good wire with something that may not be as good quality wise. Every rig in my opinion should be pulled every 5-7 years for this level inspection with a lower end and aloft inspection done yearly.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Stumble said:


> Casey,
> 
> Take a look at http://www.navtec.net/assets/img/dataset/Manual_navtec-Rigging-Service.pdf which is Navtec's service recomendations. They are more conservative in some ways (inspections starting at 6 years old), and less in others (they allow for dye testing instead of x-ray testing).


Ok, I am reading the Navtec site, it has some great information. However, as far as I can tell the dye (or x-ray, ulta sound etc.) testing they are refering to is for Rod Rigging only. Here is their quote:

"• Non-Destructive Testing (NDT) of Rod
- Navtec Recommends: Dye penetrate testing (liquid
penetration testing) by authorized professional
- Alternative methods: X-ray, ultrasound testing,
eddy current testing."

This test does not pertain to wire cable nor say swage fittings, tangs etc. Rod Rigging is a whole nother animal and requires different inspection techniques when compared to wire rigging most of us have.

Everthing I read in the Navtec literature seems to indicate you can just do a visual inspection and if your rig passes, you are good to go. Navtec does give some estimates of rig life expectancy, but they seem to indicate if a wire rig passes visual, you are good to go. No where do they say a wire rig should be replaced every x years. The exception to this is that Navtec recommends replacing your turnbuckels every 6 years not matter what (due to fact inspection of the threads is nearly impossible).


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

casey1999 said:


> Could you post a link to this "Industry Standard"?
> 
> I have never heard of this before. None of the top manufacturers' literature that I have seen states anything about x-ray inspections (and this includes the top hardware and wire makers)
> Regards


My information on the x rays every 7 years was given by a guy that works with Sparcraft (one of the biggest world manufactures) so even if I cannot find it on the net I have no reason to doubt that it is their standard. But here you can look at the one of a smaller company Southern Spars and that's about the same:

*Full service - at five yearly intervals

-...

- Proof test comparison against initial test figures of select rigging pieces.

- Non-destructive testing (dye penetrant or x-ray) of hangers, ball-head screws and turnbuckles.

*

http://www.southernspars.com/Rigging/Servicingrigging/tabid/24143/language/en-US/Default.aspx

and Rig Pro recommends the same each 4 years:

*"4 Year Service

..The associated fittings are thoroughly cleaned and recommended for non-destructive testing (NDT) to ensure there are no additional faults or weaknesses. "*

http://www.rsb-rigging.com/spars.htm

This guy says the same:

"My personal recommendation is to have your rod or wire rigging (main and genoa roller furling gear also) fully disassembled, cleaned, serviced, lubricated and *dye-penetrant test swages and/or rod heads once every 5 years*, MINIMUM."

http://crowleysyachtyard.blogspot.pt/2012_04_01_archive.html

So I think it is safe to say that the Industry Standard is 5 to 7 years for a NDT testing, I mean not a simple visual one (x-rays or dye penetrant). Here x rays is more common.

Regards

Paulo


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

PCP said:


> My information on the x rays every 7 years was given by a guy that works with Sparcraft (one of the biggest world manufactures) so even if I cannot find it on the net I have no reason to doubt that it is their standard. But here you can look at the one of a smaller company Southern Spars and that's about the same:
> 
> *Full service - at five yearly intervals
> 
> ...


I think European standards are higher than US standards for boats (including rigging). I understand in Europe your boat needs a complete inspection (structural, electrical, hull, rig) in order to get the boat registered- correct me if this is wrong.

This from Southern Spar:

"Full service - at five yearly intervals

- Visual inspection of all cables and fittings for wear, chafe and corrosion.

- Check pre-tension loads.

- Disassemble rigging components for full clean, inspection and re-lubrication.

- Proof test comparison against initial test figures of select rigging pieces.

- Non-destructive testing (dye penetrant or x-ray) of hangers, ball-head screws and turnbuckles.

- If necessary, replacement of hangers, ball-head screws, turnbuckles and other components."

So what all this seems to indicate, if you do a complete rig inspection (including x-ray or dye) and all looks ok, then you rig is good to go and this is independent of age or miles under the keel. I would hope this is the way it is, and your rigging parts do not just fail for no reason. So if there have been failures (as others have mentioned and we know there are) of rigging gear, the reason is either the part was low quality or had a defect, the part was not inspected, or the inspection was not adequate.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

rbrake said:


> As a former professional rigger I have seen older wire with a higher quality than newer wire and I would not replace it. I would pull the rig for a complete disassembly and good visual inspection with a 10 power glass, something that is more important than replacing good wire with something that may not be as good quality wise. Every rig in my opinion should be pulled every 5-7 years for this level inspection with a lower end and aloft inspection done yearly.


I think this is a good point. Just because somthing is new does not mean it is better. I would bet 50% of the rigging hardware and wire on the market now is junk. When it comes time to replace my rig, most of my time will probably be spent finding and obtaining high quality fittings and wire.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

SchockT said:


> Yeah, that is my thought too! Particularly when it comes to coastal cruisers. You would think that if lots of rigs came down, and those failures could all be attributed to standing rigging of a certain age, then insurance companies would be all over it! As it is, I have never been asked how old my standing rigging is. The underwriters seem content with a general survey every few years.


The policies of the insurance company are based solely on income vs losses.
Many coastal cruisers sit at the dock for 345 days out of the year and go out only on perfect gentle 10 knot days the rest of the time or are motoring.
If a stay fails on a boat at the dock the mast will often say up since their is little stress on it.
It makes more sense for the insurance company to ignore the potential problem since it is only a problem if the boat is used.
It may be more of an issue for some sailnet members than for the insurance company due to usage.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

davidpm said:


> The policies of the insurance company are based solely on income vs losses.
> Many coastal cruisers sit at the dock for 345 days out of the year and go out only on perfect gentle 10 knot days the rest of the time or are motoring.
> If a stay fails on a boat at the dock the mast will often say up since their is little stress on it.
> It makes more sense for the insurance company to ignore the potential problem since it is only a problem if the boat is used.
> It may be more of an issue for some sailnet members than for the insurance company due to usage.


I would guess the insurance company could deny coverage if say your mast came down due to a corroded mast tang. Insurance companies do not cover loss due to normal wear and tear or general degredation. I would guess they would cover any liability- say your mast falls on someone or hits your dock neighbors boat on the way down. I have heard insurance may not cover your boat if it sinks due to a corroded seacock that has not been maintained, so I would presume the same for your mast.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

some more interesting information:

*Wire Cable: Un-stepping the rig is also the time to consider renewals and/or 
replacements associated with rigging wire cycles. A rigging wire cycle is a 
recommended replacement/renewal duty life cycle interval. Industry sources 
consulted provided the following general guidelines for replacement/renewal 
subject to regular detailed visual examinations, environmental conditions and
regular maintenance.

Change end fittings every 2nd cycle or 12 years; 
&#8230;
Change wires every cycle or 6 years; 
Change chain plates every 3rd cycle or 18 years.

* Source: Morrelli and Melvin, Gold Coast Yachts, SECO South (Navtec)

&#8230;While rod will generally last longer than wire, re-heading is usually recommended after disassembly or as specified by the manufacturer.*

http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/USCG rigging inspection.pdf

http://www.offsoundings.com/WEB PDF/SV_KIELE_V.pdf


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

PCP said:


> some more interesting information:
> 
> *Wire Cable: Un-stepping the rig is also the time to consider renewals and/or
> replacements associated with rigging wire cycles. A rigging wire cycle is a
> ...


Paulo,
Thanks for the additional information. I remeber these demastings as I was living in Hawaii at the time. I had not seen the CG report on the Kiele, that is very interesting. 
Regards


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## tominny (Aug 30, 2011)

I am the original poster of this thread. Thank you all for a very insightful analysis of the problem and so much advice. As usual with these things, there are no clear answers and it is up to the individual. If it was all as easy and straightforward as driving a car the oceans would be full of people (breaking their rigs) ;-)

In the end I succumbed to changing the entire standing rigging. The main reason was peace of mind, and it really helped in that regard when the nor'easter was blowing. I choose Norseman fittings and the rigger showed me how to fit them and gave me a few extra for the spares kit. I kept the old backstay (longest wire) as a replacement in case there is a failure at sea. I am feeling better prepared now.

In the end it got me from NY to the Bahamas and back to FL. Since I am planning more offshore cruising over the next years, I consider this a worthwhile investment. It was either new rigging or a chartplotter at the helm. I believe I got the priorities right. ;-)


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## dvuyxx (Jun 23, 2009)

We just changed all of our original rigging, demasted and stepped our 1979 (34 yo). It was time, and I'm glad we did ... for safety's sake. But that doesn't mean I didn't try to talk myself out of it in the beginning.


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## hriehl1 (Aug 8, 2007)

Just a quick related note... This year I had what I'm 99% sure was original rigging on a 1968 sloop that was passed by my pre-purchase "surveyor". At my first launch, the yard would not step the mast and showed me the slight curves in some of the swages and tiny faults in some swage collars. My surveyor either didn't recognize its marginal condition or was just less-than-competent. So the lesson is that one opinion is only just that and prevailing wisdom that it get routinely changed-out is probably good advice.

On a second note for those considering making-up the new rigging themselves with Norseman or Sta-Lok terminals... it is E-Z as pie. I had never done it before and ruined my first attempt by over-tightening the dry-fit. But then I got the hang of it and made up all 8 new shrouds and stays in about 3 hours. I used all-new materials from the chainplates to the tangs & masthead and spent 30-40% what I would have paid for a rigger who would have used swages (most feel Norseman / Sta-Lok are better than swages).


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

davidpm said:


> OK I think I got it.
> http://www.ndttech.com/Papers/Crane wire rope damage and inspection methods.pdf
> 
> The first couple of paragraphs says the the most wear with wire rope in crane service is rolling over the pulleys caused damage to wire.
> ...


Shock can cause metal fatigue, and it occurs at a molecular level and cannot be seen by the naked eye until it is just about too late. I am not a rigger, but I have been in the oilfields long enough to know what happens when a wire rope or cable parts under pressure. I also owned part of and operated Trans-System Pipe and Storage in the Port of Houston for several years, we had an electro magnetic inspection system on site for inspecting oilfield pipe, you could see defects in the pipe wall area and the end areas under the EMI that were absolutely undetectable to anyone with the naked or any other kind of eye, the flaws were micrfissures in the wall of the pipe.

I wish I had thought about it at the time, as I no longer own any part of the business, I could have made spare change on the weekends by figuring our some way to put the rigging on a board and running it through the EMI LOL.

If it is 35 years old I would replace it, it sucks to spend the money, but it sucks more to die. As to the guy who says that sailing to the Bahamas or other islands is not a big deal...he must not have ever sailed in the storms that come up out there, very suddenly sometimes, and often very harsh when they do come up. I would not like to get dismasted out there.


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## desert rat (Feb 14, 2013)

once in a blue moon everything goes right in creating wire and rigging. The rigging lasts and lasts almost forever. it was perfect at the beginning. How long will it last. I don' know. Do you replace it? The replacement wont last as long. Will it fail? Get the best opinion you can and then make your decision. Nothing lasts forever, except nothing.


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## seabreeze_97 (Apr 30, 2006)

Seeing a lotta talk about age and corrosion. I skipped over some so if I'm repeating someone else, apologies. It seems the salient point should be this inescapable FACT. Metal fatigues. Rigging only one season old, but raced or worked hard, but still clean and shiny, is much older in terms of fatigue than a 10 year old rig that has spent life doing casual weekend cruises. There are averages. This is why there's a cut off after so many years for the typical cruiser. There's always some stress, even dockside. Sooner or later it's coming down. It's up to you as to when that is.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

If the boat is 35 years old, or from 1968, whatever... the cost of replacing standing rigging would be a large percentage of the value of the boat.

Mine done in St Martin was $750 for forestay, 1,500 twin backs, $350 inners, $750 outters... total $4,500 plus yardage. Fine for me, I cruise oceans. But for a boat that does coastal cruising, day tripping its a lot. I wouldnt have it replaced.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

tominny said:


> I just had a professional rigger inspect the lower parts and he said it is fine and does not need replacement.


I would accept the opinion of the professional rigger.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> I would accept the opinion of the professional rigger.


What is a "professional riggier"? Does he/she have a degree?, How many years of experience? How many boats have they worked without a rig failure?, How many boats have they worked and have had a rig failure? What kind of "certification" or licenses do they have?

Is there such thing as a "professional rigger"?

I know of some riggers that should be considered professional like Brian Toss and John Koon, but many that consider themselves "professionals", are probably not.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

casey1999 said:


> What is a "professional riggier"? Does he/she have a degree?, How many years of experience? How many boats have they worked without a rig failure?, How many boats have they worked and have had a rig failure? What kind of "certification" or licenses do they have?
> 
> Is there such thing as a "professional rigger"?
> 
> I know of some riggers that should be considered professional like Brian Toss and John Koon, but many that consider themselves "professionals", are probably not.


I don't know. I worked for a Lisenced and insured rigging company based out of Miami. I was paid to install and inspect rigging. I left the company and started my own business in Key West. People paid me to inspect and install rigging. I supose by definition I was a professional rigger for a time. They have classes at our local community college on the subject. I guess, the lisence and insurance coupled with the experience, usually gained by working for a reputable rigging company as an apprentice for a while would make some one a professional.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Capt.aaron said:


> I don't know. I worked for a Lisenced and insured rigging company based out of Miami. I was paid to install and inspect rigging. I left the company and started my own business in Key West. People paid me to inspect and install rigging. I supose by definition I was a professional rigger for a time. They have classes at our local community college on the subject. I guess, the lisence and insurance coupled with the experience, usually gained by working for a reputable rigging company as an apprentice for a while would make some one a professional.


I did not know that a rigging company that rigs sailboats can be licensed. I did an internet search and finding nothing that indicates boat riggers can be licensed. Can you provide a link that shows how it is done or a link to a licensed rigger? I do not think even Brian Toss is licensed.
Regards


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## mark2gmtrans (May 14, 2013)

Maybe they have a business license, I would be more interested in knowing if they were bonded and insured. If an insurance company will stand behind them against damages and injuries then I would say I would be prepared to trust them a lot more than someone without those qualifications.

Just me, but when a company will put a few million dollars behind a product or service it gives me a bit of confidence.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

I assume he meant a contractor's license or business license - meaning a legitimate business.

The underlying point here is someone who regularly engages in a particular trade or business has far more experience and expertise in a particular area, which would allow that person to offer a more valuable opinion on that subject than the know-it-alls on this forum, whose answer to every question is to buy more shizzle or spend more shizzle out of an overabundance of caution and ignorance.

Many of these older production boats had oversized masts and rigging, far stronger than the current crop of boat-show boats. If his professional rigger said it is o.k., then it is likely o.k. I would rely on the expert opinion of his rigger, who actually examined the rigging, over the non-expert opinion of the posters on Sailnet.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

jameswilson29 said:


> I assume he meant a contractor's license or business license - meaning a legitimate business.
> 
> The underlying point here is someone who regularly engages in a particular trade or business has far more experience and expertise in a particular area, which would allow that person to offer a more valuable opinion on that subject than the know-it-alls on this forum, whose answer to every question is to buy more shizzle or spend more shizzle out of an overabundance of caution and ignorance.
> 
> Many of these older production boats had oversized masts and rigging, far stronger than the current crop of boat-show boats. If his professional rigger said it is o.k., then it is likely o.k. I would rely on the expert opinion of his rigger, who actually examined the rigging, over the non-expert opinion of the posters on Sailnet.


I agree with you for the most part.

I am a licensed professional mechanical engineer. I have licenses in Maryland and Hawaii, and would be able to get licensed in any state with an application. To get licensed I needed a mechanical engineering degree, 4 years experience working under a licensed mechanical engineer, and needed to pass two tests totaling 16 hours given by the state of maryland.

In my work I deal with all kinds of equipment from commercial air conditioning systems to maintenace of guyed anntennas over 1,000 feet tall.

Most of the trades people I deal with are not formally licensed, but could be considered professionals as they get paid to do what they do. Some should be considered experts. But the problem I see is these professionals are right 98% of the time. It is the 2% of the time they get it wrong because they do no have a good foundation for understanding what they are doing. One of my jobs is to "catch" this 2% and not let slip by. As in most of life, it would be uneconomical to educate these trades people to cover that 2% where they make incorrect descisions. It most cases, the 2% where they get it wrong is not a life or death situation, it only has economic impact.

However, I think your rig on your sailboat is critical. It could be life or death when it falls down and hits someone, or it could be life or death if you can not sail to make it to port. I think we need a formal licensing program to be considered a "Professional Rigger".


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

casey1999 said:


> I did not know that a rigging company that rigs sailboats can be licensed. I did an internet search and finding nothing that indicates boat riggers can be licensed. Can you provide a link that shows how it is done or a link to a licensed rigger? I do not think even Brian Toss is licensed.
> Regards


You don't get a "rigging" lisence. You get a business lisence. In order to do lisensed business as a rigger you need insurance. In order to get insured you need to prove you are worth the risk to the company. It's like when I got my charter boat insurance. I had to prove I was insurable. You can how ever become a surveyor, which includes rigging fatigue in it's carriculum. Also, in my current feild, you get a rigging certification in order to be qauilifed to work the decks of commercial tugs and anchor handlers. This rigging includes crane operation and the like. Sail boat rigging, standing and running, are speacialized. This skill is realy only aquired through working at a rig shop. Florida Hydraulic and rigging, Sailing Services in Miami, places like that. I was trained by a guy who learned first from puting together and flying Heliocopters. I then worked on a traditonally rigged tall ship, and then was subsequently hired by a sail boat rigger. It all boils down, in regards to standing rigging, terminal end's and wire. We say 15 years on wire and it depends on the terminal end. If it's sta-lock, than almost forever, and if it's rotory swage, about the same as wire. To split the difference cost wise we usually suggest swage on top and sta-lock on the bottom. I went sta-lock top and bottom on mine. My 1x19 wire is 15 years old and about ready to change out. I just sailed to Honduras from Fla. and kept my eye on the wire, checking for broken strands. But I digress as usual. Check a riggers reputation, and work history. His insurance and business lisence, and then decide in talking to him weather or not you deam him Professional or not for your self.


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