# Live Aboard, how do you keep the kids from drowning?



## cleanup

We (wife, self, a 2 year old and a 3 year old) are looking at moving aboard a 40 foot cat. Most time would be spent at the T-head, with occasional sailing(day trip, once a week), at least thats the plan now.

Question to others who have done it is how do you keep the children from drowning? I have read the articles about living aboard with kids, but I couldn't find anything about how its done day to day in a slip. I would certainly plan on tethering them underway, but what do you do on a day in day out basis in the slip? As you know, it is impossible to keep an eye directly on them 24/7 (my opinion).

I read one sentence stating that "the children grew up in life jackets". Makes sense, I just wonder how practical it is. Can it truly be done, is it worth it? We will be in an area where the water is cold, short time in before hypothermia.

The kids love the water and they are not afraid of it, we take them swimming and they enjoy it very much, but they are not really at the point yet of bobbing up too well once going under, especially the little one, but we're still working on it.

So, any advice/experience would help, thanks.


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## hellosailor

It's a question of discipline and attention, really. It's hard to tell kids "OK, you have to put on your life jacket as soon as we get out of the car and keep it on until we leave the docks again" when none of the big folks are doing the same thing. (If there are kids around, I try to *do* just that, so they can see an adult is doing it. And if there are kids with us, I lead by example.)

And it helps if the kids can chose a comfortable PFD that looks pretty to them. Yes, cartoon characters, colors, all that stuff, there's style in PFDs these days. I don't believe in logos but I think I'd exploit that one.<G>

It probably also would help--if the kids are old enough to talk and understand--to take them into the water, off the docks, and be there with them to let them see just how hard it can be to get back out. And then explain how nasty that can be when the water gets cold, so they understand *why* you want them to do this. (Without scaring them.)

24/7...well...in parts of Eatern Europe the kids do in fact wear harnesses when they are out with the parents. You'll see Mom sitting having coffee at some cafe, talking to other adults, and totally ignoring the kid on the end of an 8' lead. In the US you might get arrested for that<G> but until the kids are old enough to understand why they can't run out in traffic, or run with scissors...
Meanwhile, perhaps a nice water rescue dog, like a Newfoundland, to watch over them on the docks?<G>


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## sailingdog

I like hellosailor's idea of a large water rescue dog...but I'm also partial to newfies... 

I don't think that requiring them to wear PFDs 24/7 or keeping them on a leash is really the appropriate way to keep them from drowning. I grew up playing around docks and the water, and having to wear a PFD 24/7 would have driven me crazy. 

With toddlers, like your 2 & 3 year old, having them wear PFDs, and keeping them limited in where they can go is probably an excellent idea, but once they are a bit older, it isn't going to work as well. The fact that you have a catamaran makes this a fair bit easier, as the large bridge deck/saloon/cockpit gives them a fairly decent area to roam about in, yet can be closed off fairly well, to prevent them from going forward or falling off the boat. 

In generally, once children are older than six or seven, they can usually handle themselves around the water and follow basic guidelines pretty well, better than many adults I know. If you have some basic rules, like you must wear your PFD if you're on the docks/boats at night or in bad weather, and the like, but aren't too rigid and require that they wear them 24/7, it is far more likely that they will listen to the rules.


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## hellosailor

How did we forget Velcro?

A two foot wide strip around the side decks and patches on the bottom of their feet & behinds, and they'll never fall off the boat. (Works great for adults on race boats, too.<G>)


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## k1vsk

Regardless of how careful you are, accidents do happen. My advice would be to ask yourself - Is it really worth the chance of risking the safety of children just to satisfy a dream?


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## sailingdog

K1vsk-

Accidents are just as likely to happen at home. Car accidents are pretty common too... Is it worth sacrificing a dream for the possibility of an accident happening...when the accident may happen even if the dream is sacrificed?? I don't think so. 

Cleanup-

Take some basic precautions... teach the kids to swim and to respect the water...but go sailing... Life is too short. I've learned this the hard way... my late wife wanted to go sailing with me, but her cancer killed her before she could go.


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## Bluewater4us

I have two kids and they are 4 and 8. I was kind of loose on the rules of the Pfd up till one day. All were getting stuff on the boat as well as ourselves. I was on board recieving goods and people when I looked back and saw my baby girl slip backwards into the lake with out a pfd. I never moved so fast in my life. I managed to pull her out... she was scared but ok. Hell I was scared. Now I have rules and I am more cautious. Don't give up the dream just be a good sailor... an ounce of prevention.....

I was lucky. Good thing she likes to swim now and is enjoying it.


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## cleanup

*Another option*

Thanks for all your input!

Wife wants to know if you're serious about the dogs...

I know what you mean about is it worth the risk, certainly couldn't forgive myself if one of them drown, and it seems like the risk would be higher living on a boat than on dry land. Point taken about auto accidents, or getting hit by a bus, but the actual risk of death seems higher to me living on the water.

We are also considering renting a room on shore, where wife and little girls could take refuge from the PFDs, and be able to run around a bit without being tied down.

Good Day


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## hellosailor

jac-
Absolutely serious about the dogs. There's a newf working beach rescue in England now (named Bilbo) and another one (Mas) who jumps out of helos in Italy with a rescue swimmer. The French, for purposes I've forgotten, actually did tests to figure out that one Newf was sufficient to pull one lifeboat with 20 people on it. Dunno why, maybe because a Newf supposedly was launched to rescue Napolean when he fell overboard way back.

The dogs were once "standard issue" at the original US lifesaving service stations on the east coast, and they are still trained and worked in competition for water rescue skills. They're also very good with children, which is why they were sometimes called "Nana dogs" and why the original "Nana" in Peter Pan was a role inspired by and written for a Newf. Of course, doggie brains being doggie brains, even the best doggie Nana might let the children fly away with faeries, there's a lesson to be learned about hiring cheap help I suppose.<G>

Newfs were bred to be kept on boats, often literally in a closet or locker, so they tend to be very mellow in nature. A kid can pull out their tongue, tie it to their tail, and eat their dinner and the dog will usually make no protest, somehow they understand that no harm is intended. A most unusual breed, bred for this type of role, although there's a certain amount of hair and slobber that comes with having double-coated livestock around.<G>

Check out http://www.newfclubne.org/ one of the clubs that does water trials.


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## sailingdog

I'd agree that the Newfies are one of the best breeds for water rescue, and make wonderful, if large, family pets, due to the very docile and good nature of the breed. I've yet to see an agressive Newfie... they're gentle giants.


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## Cruisingdad

Well, my experience and thoughts differ quite a bit here, so I will outline them. Our oldest has been on a boat since he was 5 days old. We lived aboard in Fort Myers, Florida. We had 2 dogs on board too (Minature Schnauzers). My kids are now 5 & 2, so I will tell you what worked and did not work for us:

1) The cockpit was off limits unless an adult was up there. We rigged it so it was difficult to get out the doors. At anchor, we are lax about wearing a life jacket in the cockpit as long as adults are there. My youngest (2 yrs old) cannot go forward without LJ, no matter what. Oldest can with supervision. At night, offshore, storms, and anchoring/going in slip, kids wear life jackets or stay down below. The last two are becuase it takes considerable attention from me and the wife and you cannot give two things your total attetnion... but that is up to you.

2) Dogs. I love my dogs. They are great. However, I am negative on dogs on boats. They are more trouble than they are worth. It is like having two more kids. Some countries are very keen on you leaving your pets at home too (look back at other threads). I personally would NEVER consider a dog as even another means to watch my boys. I will tell you the truth: My dogs have gone into the water countless times (which is why Scooter wears a jacket too). Scooters jacket never comes off (and he prefers it that way). Think about what happens when your dog falls in the water. They CANNOT get back on a boat, period. No jacket, goodbye Fido. Also, dogs have to poop and pee. Now, let me ask you this practical question that I did not realize until we livedaboard with kids: Who is going to watch your kids when you take them out to pee (which can be quite a walk if you live in a marina)??? Take them with you? Yeah, right. As our Rhode Island friend (young female liveaboard with kids too) said, "Fooogeetabout it!" WHat about when it is raining? Freezing cold? No, no dogs. You will have enough stress without them.

3) Dogs take up a bunch of room. If you have not lived on a boat before, especially with kids, let me tell you things are going to get real tight. It is not like living aboard by yourself/spouse. Thorw a dog into the mix and things get even tighter. 

4) Boarding the boat/docks. That is the only time my kids have fallen in the water. That is the most dangerous, in my opinion. Imagine being their size and trying to board the boat. Now, add in a bag of groceries, two dogs pulling at you, it is raining, the boarding ladder is slippery, you have oil on your shoes from the yard, the boat is rocking... you get the picture. Either leave the groceries in the car and get kids on first or other way around. Just a warning.

5) Life Jackets. My kids are very comfortable in the jackets... and they have no choice. Sorry. That is just life. Your kids will get very used to them. I suggest a Mustang with the crotch strap, zipper, and head float. They are the best ones made for young kids. Once they get older, say 7 or 8 or more, consider an autoinflate (made for kids). Until then, they will be fine. They will sceram a bit for a while, but then you will have to pull them out of them.

6) Life aboard. I think someone made a comment earlier about the dangers of living aboard with kids and their dreams versus yours... or something like that. Don't let someone elses insecurities scare you off. Go for it. If you live your dreams you will be a different parent to your kids. Your dreams will likely change into their dreams too. It will change your life and their life for the better, I promise. There are so many beautiful things to see that you can NEVER appreciate until you live aboard and take your kids with you. I may write a book one day on some of the soul changing experiences we have had, and will have again soon. It is not always pretty and it is not easy... but the best things in life never are. Get out of the city. Walk the docks in the evening. Watch sunsets with your kids from the cockpit. DInk around the other boats in the marina and dream. Anchor off an island and stare out into the sea. The best (emphasize BEST) people I have ever met have lived aboard around us.

7) Some cautions. Just a few words of warning, and anyone who reads this, please do not take any of my comments personally. First, your age versus the age of those around you will be very different. This is not all bad and many of our friends are older than my parents, but better be prepared for a generation gap. None of them will have kids either. It is tough to find other cruisers with kids. Few people have the money, even fewer that have the money will do what you are about to. That will give you some frustrations. Really scout out your marinas. Try and find one close to a park or that has a lot of "grass" room to run around, play blocks, ride bikes, etc. The marina will make or break you. Make a LOT of breaks to the parks or outside activities. If your spouse is not going to work (like mine did not) she will need a car or close proximity to a lot of things to do to get her off the boat with the kids... unless you want her to kill you when you get home. 

8) Make it work. I promise you that the first few weeks will be heaven, then reality sets in. Make it work by getting off the boat, taking dink rides, getting out of the docks with the cataman... in other words, a lot of activities.

If you have any questions, PM me. I will be happy to help in any way I can. I am always anxious to see other parents out there trying to make cruising with kids work. And as your wife reads this, tell her, "Yes, it is worth it." It has been for us and has made all the difference since.

- CD


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## k1vsk

Comparing the likelihood of an accident aboard vs that living ashore is incredibly short-sighted (read - dumb). Clearly, accidents happen anywhere and it would be a boring life to live in fear of everything, however, the potential for disaster obviously increases.

Citing stories of couples circumnavigating with children successfully changes nothing other than to prove it can be done which isn't the point.


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## Cruisingdad

k1,

If that is how you feel, I would strongly reccommend not taking your kids boating. 

You are right, just because it has been done does not make it safe. I also think that anyone who feels that boating with children is as safe as keeping their kids in a traditional home environment is just kidding themselves. I also dont buy the argument that they could get killed on land just as easy. It is not just as easy, but very possible.

Now, all that being said, you have to ask yourself why? Why take them out there? Is it for your dreams? Well, there is always a self-serving piece to it, I guess. But I think it is to show them a world that is beyond the grasp of most adults and even more children. It is to show them THE aspect of humanity, nature and the world that cannot be seen through a television, week long trips on a cruise ship, or the National Geographic. Cruising is a lifestyle, and a very expensive one. But I would take my child cruising every day of their life versus raising them in some suberb of some city in some house out of sight of nature and the world we live in. 

It is up to each parent to make that decision, though. A child cannot make it. Most parents choose the path you have seemed to portray. Is that path wrong? No. I don't think so. Unless you are committed to boating and all of the positives and negatives it can induce, it is not the right decision. But for many parents, they feel that which can be gained outweighs that which could be lost. I am the latter - and support and encourage anyone else with kids that wants to come along.

We will see you there...

- CD


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## eryka

Nicely articulated, C-dad. About 2 years ago, a professional sailor was washed overboard and drowned during a gale. He was crewing for a skipper who we know well (Dan especially) and has enormous skills. So this *wasn't* about incompetence. We spent a lot of time thinking about risks, after that.

We concluded that what distinguishes an unnecessary, foolish risk, from an acceptable "the price of doing business" risk is the potential benefit you're seeking when you incur the risk. And that each of us must decide for ourselves what that equation is - how much you value the experiences of living aboard and cruising, and, based on your skill level and cruising grounds, how much of a risk your circumstances represent and how much you are willing to take.

We're with you - having decided that in our case, the possibility of disaster aboard is less than the *certainty* that if we gave up the dream, our sense of diminishement would be its own disaster on land.


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## Balegane

We live onboard with our 2 sons now aged 3 and 4, we moved onto the boat when they were 1 and 2. The advice given you is all sound. The trick we found is to start them swimming at the earliest stage. In Australia we started ours in the water as babies. The oldest now 4 loves to snorkel and I take him to about 4-5 feet on the octapus of my scuba. The yougest one is not as competent and has fallen in twice, this was a heart pounding moment for us but he learnt respect for the water from the incident. As a parent you will soon realise your sense of sound is accute to the tiniest splash. One of the first things I did with our boat a 42' is put new railing around with a solid cap rail and mesh. I also have a mesh barrier about 4 feet from the bow so the cannot get to wndlass, anchor lines etc. now. The only gate is on the stern which also has mesh on it and a serious childproof lock. Goodluck you and your children will be greatly rewarded by the experience.


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## TSOJOURNER

Welcome Cleanup! We are a family of 4 with a 100 lb. lab that live aboard our Transpac 49'. We are new to this live aboard life, but have spent a lot of time with friends that also live aboard with their 2 children. What has worked for us on our boat (and also our friends' boat) is to have the kids where their life jackets whenever on the docks or on the deck of the boat. By the way, our kids are 7 and 4 years old. They do not have any problem with this rule. It's what they are used to and know we will not bend on the issue. We have the mustang pfds. They work great for the kids. Whenever the kids are playing on the docks we make sure their is an adult with them. Our oldest daughter fell in a couple of weeks ago while fishing and it was no big deal. I just scooped her right out by her life vest handle. We also are in the process of putting netting up all around the boat. When we are underway, we are okay with the kids being on deck. However, if the weather turns bad, we have them stay below. 

As for putting children at risk...Any drownings that I have heard of have occured because a life vest was not worn. I don't know the percentage, but a much, much higher number of children drown in pools. I believe it's wonderful to show your children what following your dreams is all about. I believe the "risk" is totally worth it. I could really get on my soapbox here, but I'll spare you all! 

Even in the short time aboard, I have seen so many wonderful things come out in our girls. Their curiosity and learning has totally blossomed! Feel free to pm me if you have any questions. Best of luck to you!

Shari


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## TSOJOURNER

Am I missing the boat... but have you thought of teaching them how to swim and blow a wistle. A wistle they can wear around their neck at all times like jewelry. If they can thread water just for a couple of minutes and blow a wistle, most likely, long enough to be pulled out. This is of course as a back up, children above deck or on the dock should have a life vest on... always.

I have no childhood memories of not being able to thread water. I think I was taught at age two. I was a water baby until my mother took us to see Jaws at age 8. Then not so much... LOL

I'm also presuming that you will have netting all around the boat.

Matthew

PS the closeness that your family will have due to living aboard can far out weigh the increased risks. If I had kids I would home school and sail all over. Seeing the monsters that are coming out of our public schools and traditional housing makes me think your on the right track. I get my god daughter for the summers when she turns 10. We're going to sail.


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## hellosailor

Balgane-
I'd be reluctant to put a 4-year old on compressed air, even that shallow, yet. Only because I'm not entirely sure they'd be old enough to understand they can never hold that breath if they rotate or surface. Our instructor (who may have been overly conservative, or simply very careful) emphasized that an adult diver (not exhaling) simply rotating from horizontal to vertical position, unless they rotated "about" their lungs, could generate enough pressure change to blow out an adult lung, from a 4-6' depth change.

Matthew-
The whistle is a good idea but I'd file it under "more stuff". That is, nice if it doesn't fall off & away as they submerge. Or they don't panic and forget about it, etc. And as long as they don't toot on it for fun, so people ignore it. People also routinely suggest whistles for open water scuba, and I've got to tell you, unless you are downwind from the whistler? No one ever hears it. But it's a nice way to pacify the guy blowing it.<G>
I like the big hairy dog, despite the ah, collateral damage it brings. Even if all they do is bark, the sound of an upset barking dog often brings help.


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## sailingdog

BTW, there is a nice training program to teach/certify dogs as water rescue animals. They don't have to be standard water rescue breeds like Newfies or Portugese Water Dogs either... If I can find the link to the site, I'll post it.


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## hellosailor

SD-
I'd like to see the link, IIRC some women in CT is running a program like that.

The advantage of the long-haired breeds is that it is easy for a swimmer to grab into the fur. The Newfs seem to go beyond that though, they are repeatedly seen to "instinctively" turn a victim face-up in the water, then seize a hand to pull them out of it. The webbed feet also help.

Years ago my friend & I conned my Newf off a sandspit (she didn't like the ocean, go figure) and when she finally realize she couldn't climb into my lap and that Massa was simply nuts...she took off for the high tide line and two us, standing, couldn't hold her in with a leash.

Then she settled in to swop and eat sand flies that came to check out her nose. Go figure, doggie brains. (UGH.) Dog, frog, they don't spell so good, sometimes they get confused.<G>


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## sailingdog

Hey... I resemble those remarks...  The article was in the most recent Latts & Atts...and the two websites were wetdog.org and dogscouts.com


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## TSOJOURNER

K-1 Don't get you feelings hurt. We all have our fears. I am a private pilot and take my wife and three kids ages 3,7,10 flying regularly. I always consider "what ifs" when flying. True fact... the two lane road that we drive everyday from my home in Georgia takes a life every 5 months on average. Water is less forgiving no doubt to a small child. My 7 yr son came within inches of walking in front of a car in Key West this summer. 3yo daughter walked under horse to pet. There is always danger.
But one can not live in fear. The world is waiting to be seen! Good Luck!


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## sailormomma

Hi,

I thought I'd put my opinions in. We liveaboard with our 2 kids, ages 4 and 5 1/2. They've been raised aboard since birth. As soon as they started walking they started wearing their life jackets. They knew they couldn't go outside without them. In fact when my daughter was a little younger (around 2), we would be outside while she was taking a nap and we'd find her at the bottom of the companionway, crying because she couldn't get her "floatie" on. You have to be strict about it and it will be second nature for them. Now I have to remind the kids to take them off.










My son fell in for the first time this summer while he was fishing. They both were more worried about the fishing net more than they were about him. My kids have respect for the water. They know it's not safe. I feel a child who lives across from a pond or visits friends or family with a pool has a much higher risk of drowning. They don't know the consequences. I could never give up this dream. It's so amazing watching the kids grow up in this lifestyle.

Oh yeah, another thing. Make sure you have a couple extra life jackets for playdates. Friends need to follow the rules, as well.

If you ever have any additional questions, please feel free to PM or email me.

Take care,
Angela
S/V Ghost
www.ghostsailors.com


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## TSOJOURNER

*Big dogs on board*

I have a 60 lb. mutt, and I'm in the middle of teaching her how to use the tolet at home, so she can use the head when we're out on vacation next summer... She's not used to it, so its taking a little time...

Bridget


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## TSOJOURNER

I wouldn't thow away the dream of full time live aboard... I'd just wait until the kids are a little older... I am an old mom... and putting the kids 1st is the right thing .... it only takes a second for a child to slip away... you might not even notice it... and no do overs! 

Probably not what you wanted to hear... but that's my thoughts... you'll have tomorrow!


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## TSOJOURNER

my kids have been sailing with me since they were one month old. I had a rule that when ever they got out of the car, the life jacket when on. It was normal for them to have it on. We also use a teather that attached to the life jacket while they were on deck. We didn't live on a boat but spent a lot of time on the water. My children never comlained about the life jacket in fact they preferred to have them on. My wife now has two kids and hers would complain if we tried that. Set the rules early and the kids will not know any different. 

Geoff


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## TSOJOURNER

Sorry, spelling errors! Typing fast in the dark. 

Geoff


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## gilsurf

Set some groundrules and follow them. teach your kids respect for the water and above all teach them to swim. Somethings we have seen:

Lifeline netting
On a cat: rule: if you are out of the cockpit, there must be an adult on deck, even at the dock.
In the dink, lifejackets on
Let them fall/jump in supervised so they know what to do and how it feels. Yes, even the 2 year old!


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## CaptainForce

Our children, now 27 & 30, lived aboard from newborn to eighteen mostly in Florida waters. During those years before they were strong swimmers they did wear life jackets on deck, docks and near the water. We also selected a marina that had large areas for play well away from the water. Nothing was more important than; as others have said, to have them develop a comfort and skill in dealing safely with the water. As it turns out the greatest risk in our children's survival on board occured when a loop of main sheet fell around my three year old son's neck during a gybe. Fortunately I was there to hold him up and absorb most of the strain of the sheet as he was lifted off the deck. From then on our children were not allowed aft of the mainsheet winches while sailing, but how can you forsee all risks? Three years ago an adult woman was found drowned in one of the northeast florida marinas. It was determined that she had struck her head when falling while attempting to board her vessel. Life is at risk at all ages in all environments. I think the best we can do is to manage risks and knowledge. All those stupid t-shirt slogans from a few years ago that said "NO FEAR" should have read "KNOW FEAR". In your case, that additional risk of the cold water is outside my experience. 'take care and joy! Stewart & Nancie onboard Aythya,- [email protected]


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## gilsurf

Just a quick note on a great netting deal:
Lifeline netting: 
WM $2.50 - $3.60 per foot depending on length
SeaMar: $0.64 per foot at any length
And SeaMar says the new WM stuff is garbage.. no longer knotted, breaks down in the sun, etc. When I asked SeaMar why it is so much less than WM, he said that they could not mark it up any more and feel good. Thus, they are already making a solid profit at 64 cents a foot!
http://www.seamar.com/nets/rail.html

Gilhttp://www.sailnet.com/forums/../editpost.php?do=editpost&p=104405


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## gilsurf

I am interested in reflections from people who live aborad with kids on a mooring, using a dink to and fro, in the tropics, etc. We are about to move aboard with 2 kids (2 and 5) in St. Thomas, VI.

Thanks!


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