# Is Sailing an Elitist Sport?



## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

I realize this has been hashed out before; but, after looking at ticket prices for the America cup, it really makes you wonder. It makes NASCAR look good.

Sportsmark



> LOUIS VUITTON CUP FINALS
> Single Day $800
> 2-Day Pack $1,500
> 3-Day Pack $2,175
> ...


That's just a sample of the America's Cup area. I'm a whole-hearted capitalist and i believe you charge what the market will bear. I wonder sometimes why America can't find talented sailors for the Olympics. 
I'm glad i can watch sailing from any vantage point.


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## RocketScience (Sep 8, 2008)

_"Full Series Flex $5,500" 
_
And my vantage point would be from where???

Unless this put me on a Committee boat, or hovering above the course in a helo, it's about as silly as selling tickets to watch the Woodland Kingfisher migrate South. JMO


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Well, as I was saying to Hunter and Daphne at the Club the other day, if we lower our standards any more just about everyone will think that they can be a sailor ...


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

I can only go by my first hand experiences here.

When I mentioned to my co-workers that I was looking at a boat. The first questions out of their mouths was "what size engine?" We are not talking ******** here.. the idea that I was looking to get a sailboat seemed about as alien to them as if I had ridden a horse to work amd wore homespun clothing. in this digital age, getting anywhere slowly by using the forces of nature does not compute


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Yes, sailing is an elitist sport, cruising is a great example. We have had to get off our butts and make money through hard work to buy a boat, retire and go travel the world.

Slack-ass lazy bums cant do that because they have always been bone idle. They are the ones who look at us as elitist.

So I dont mind at all


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

Sailing is definitely an 'elitist' sport, as especially viewed by those who dont do their own exhaustive 'bottom work', etc. because their servants/paid crew happen to have a few days off and no one is there every morning to 'chamois'-off the dew.


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## jppp (Jul 13, 2008)

Sailboat racing is a sport and certainly can be elitist but for the rest of us not at all. Sailing (day sailing or cruising)on the other hand is as much a sport as driving a motor home through Yellowstone.


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## BarryL (Aug 21, 2003)

What does 'sailing' have to do with the 'Americas Cup?' That's like asking if driving a car is elitist because Formula One racing is expensive.

You can probably watch 'yacht racing' every day in the summer if you want to. My club (dues is $50 / year) races numerous series in the summer and you can watch for free. The other local yacht clubs have similar racing on other days Is that 'common man' enough for you?

Barry


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## John B (Mar 6, 2013)

Elitist, maybe but I sail a 35 yr old boat that cost me a few grand.I sailed past a million dollar yacht last year and you can't tell me he was having any more fun than me.I love sailing , it is fun at every level.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

It certainly appears that WATCHING other people sail can be VERY elitist, I've never paid to watch someone else play golf or tennis either so the whole concept is a little alien to me.
How do they keep people from watching for free outside the grandstand area ?


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## flandria (Jul 31, 2012)

The America's Cup is elitist, and has always been from its inaugural event in the 1800's (the owners didn't even bother to sail their own yachts). The origins of "sailing for fun" are also elitist in case you forget, no matter how down to earth many cruisers and live-aboards are today. Nowadays, it simply is being commercialized, as is everything else. But is that very different from the expense-account ticket-holders in luxury boxes at football, baseball, basketball? The Olympics? Today's philosophy is to charge what the market can bear and push the financial boundary as hard as you can (and that is not entirely new, either). It has little to do with sailing, a lot with business. The irony is that the best view of all these races is not on some expense-account venue but on your comfy couch at home (assuming you are not living on board somewhere) watching the whole thing on TV. Thus, it has more to do with "networking" among business people and their hangers-on... and bragging rights.


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## rbrasi (Mar 21, 2011)

It's a simple formula. If it is on tv, who is sponsoring? if the commercials are for Bud and Tide, you're watching NASCAR. If it's Mercedes and Tag Heuer, you're watching tennis.


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## FinallySailing (Feb 12, 2013)

Interesting thoughts. I've not come across anybody on this site here who seems to be too elitist to me  . Seriously, though, my Canadian wife always is amazed how much more down to earth many sailors seem to be over here in the UK (her brother's in-laws in Quebec were avid sailors). When I still lived in Germany it also seemed to be much more elitist. I remember trying to contact an "Academic Sailing Association" whilst at university which seemed to be nearly as stiff as some of the very old fashioned student unions. Whilst there is certainly a rich "elite" that sails over here, I've come across old clubs that pride themselves of having a working-men history and background. I wonder if this does also have to do with the fact that sailing is luckily rather unregulated (or non government self-regulated) in the UK. Always thought of boating/sailing as an unwritten right of the inhabitants of these isles. Whilst the RYA is doing a great job educating and setting the background, anybody can buy or build a boat and go out in UK waters at their own peril as long as they don't harm anybody else. No need for a sailing "license" or to register your boat legally.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

benesailor said:


> I realize this has been hashed out before; but, after looking at ticket prices for the America cup, it really makes you wonder. It makes NASCAR look good.
> 
> Sportsmark
> 
> ...


I have been on the two last America's cup in Europe and I cannot even remember if I paid anything and if I paid it was so inexpensive that I cannot remember it anymore.

I guess that is the American way to look at it. In Europe in races like the Vor 70 or the Vendee globe you don't pay nothing to go to the race village to see the boats and watch the in-port races, talk to the racers and be part of the action. The money come from elsewhere, from the TV coverage, sponsoring and publicity.

But for that you have to have an huge popular interest that permits returns in publicity from sponsorship and TV coverage.

In US where the sail is a lot less popular they cannot have money that way and it seems there are some from whom sail races are a fashionable jet set event so they make them pay. someone has to pay for it

Sailing as a Sport is only expensive if the racers are amateurs and in that case racing big boats is a millionaires's sport and kind of a funny sport because money is a big part of success. If the racers are professional and are paid to race on the sponsors boats than it is not an elite sport, not more than many others.

Cruising is another story, yes for that you have to have money and that could be considered a kind of elite activity but then cruising is not a sport.

Regards

Paulo


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## mad_machine (Dec 16, 2012)

FinallySailing said:


> Interesting thoughts. I've not come across anybody on this site here who seems to be too elitist to me  . Seriously, though, my Canadian wife always is amazed how much more down to earth many sailors seem to be over here in the UK (her brother's in-laws in Quebec were avid sailors). When I still lived in Germany it also seemed to be much more elitist. I remember trying to contact an "Academic Sailing Association" whilst at university which seemed to be nearly as stiff as some of the very old fashioned student unions. Whilst there is certainly a rich "elite" that sails over here, I've come across old clubs that pride themselves of having a working-men history and background. I wonder if this does also have to do with the fact that sailing is luckily rather unregulated (or non government self-regulated) in the UK. Always thought of boating/sailing as an unwritten right of the inhabitants of these isles. Whilst the RYA is doing a great job educating and setting the background, anybody can buy or build a boat and go out in UK waters at their own peril as long as they don't harm anybody else. No need for a sailing "license" or to register your boat legally.


It's funny you mention that. Friend of mine is from Cologne and knows how to sail. He was telling me the classes and school he attended in Elba to allow him to pilot anything under 20m..


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

As the ad says:
"An exclusive hospitality experience affording corporate groups the 
unique opportunity to entertain 280-360 guests... (in) a first-class setting to 
develop your business relationships."
They self defined themselves and the even as elitest. And apparantley don't have a problem with that. My only problem is that these entertainments are tax deductable business expenses and don't in my view meet any kind of reasonableness test.
This is nothing more than an opportunity for corporate fat cats to play big man on campus for a few days at stock holders expense.


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## Barquito (Dec 5, 2007)

Is sailing an elitist sport? Sure it is. Sport is elitist. The median household income of something like $32,000 does not leave a lot of wiggle room for any leisure activity that costs money. OTOH, there are plenty of people who work their ^ss off, and make sailing a priority, even at a shoe string level. More power to those who can operate at higher levels, as long as they don't deride the ones that do not have the same resources.


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## dnf777 (Jun 23, 2007)

those prices are on par or less than Superbowl ticket prices, and I hardly think football is elitist. The top tier events of ANY sport is going to draw big ticket prices. Heck, even when the Stone Skippin' Nationals (yes, there's really such a thing) came to our town, tickets prices were high.


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## Brent Swain (Jan 16, 2012)

I've been cruising and living aboard on less than $300 a month, for decades. I could never afford to live ashore on that amount. Doesn't exactly put me in the "Elite" category.
When I do offer people simpler and far more affordable ways of doing things, those who want to make it "elitist" get me kicked off the web sites and chatlines. I consider that sheer flattery. Sure glad they don't identify me as being one of them.


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## SchockT (May 21, 2012)

Of course the America's Cup is elitist! Just look at the obscene amounts of money they pour into the boats in order to win a trophy. I don't begrudge them their exclusive parties and viewing areas. It's their money! Let them have the prime locations, there is still plenty of places the "masses" can watch for free!

As for sailing in general, no, I don't think it is elitist. There are plenty of ways for the average joe to get out sailing. In fact, sailboats are a more affordable way to get on the water than power boats! I certainly couldn't justify the expense of a 30' power boat! If I had to pay those fuel bills I would never go out!

Even yacht clubs aren't necessarily elitist. Some are _exclusive_ in that you have to be able to afford membership, and certainly there are elitist people within the clubs, but by and large my experience is that regardless of the size and value of the boat you own, we all share a love of the water.

As with any sport, there are the elite levels, and then there are various levels below that right down to the kids just starting out and the "beer leagues".


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Oh Phft!

Formula One, Football, the World Cup, pick any premier event and there will be super boxes and members only areas. So what?

If you're willing to invest a little elbow grease you can have a boat on the water for a grand. Or if you have the means you can spend over a million on a sailboat.

Yet you can both wake up in the same quiet anchorage, have a cup of coffee, watch the occasional fish jump and the birds doing their thing. Isn't that the opposite of elitist?

Not to mention most sailors I know are anything but elitist.


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Well, ladies and gentlemen - I chanced opportunities to be aboard 2 America's Cup boats - True North and Canada 1. Both occassions sporting a tool box rather then a club blazer & tie. Each magnificent machine turned out in their finest Awlgrip primer grey, and sans hardware. No muckity muck pomp and posturing for me at the Royal Palmy Bastard YC.:laugher


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## Stella's crew (Sep 3, 2012)

I feel elite when at the tiller, smiling on at the vibe, not too much spray..... But I feel similar when sanding, painting, cussing and wrenching.


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## nasali (Feb 7, 2013)

I think so! I also admire those people, who are always sailing!


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

The point of those seating areas has nothing to do with boats, sailing or racing. Its an opportunity for those that measure their self esteem in dollars and cents to compare wieners.

Those that measure their self worth in terms of learning and harnessing the forces of nature to accomplish your aims are more likely to be sailors, and yes we are an elitist bunch.


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## sailordave (Jun 26, 2001)

EVERY activity has some who are "elite". 
You can join a pricey tennis club or play on the public courts in the park.
You can join an indoor soccer facility or play in the gym or just kick the ball around on some grassy patch.
You can buy a new SWAN to take Biff and Chelsea out for a sail (or more likely, sit at the dock and drink) OR you can buy a used Laser/Santana/Catalina and go sailing.

No more or less elitist than people's perceptions of what you do for a living. OH, you're a doctor? Must be loaded. Yeah, that family GP that lives in the middle of PoorCounty USA and sometimes gets paid w/ a chicken. Or the doc that volunteers in 3rd world countries.

If I had to tally up the costs of all the work I'm doing to my boat versus having the yard do it all, sheesh, don't even want to go there! But hey, I'm an elite person!


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

The title of this thread illustrates the difference in cultural views regarding the sport of sailing.

In Australia, NZ and many parts of Europe, sailing is a common activity among common folks. Nothing elite about it. In Australia, the word "yacht" is used to refer to nearly any pleasure craft, not simply boats larger than "X" meters, or sailboats or power boats.

In the United States, no matter how old, or crappy the sailboat, sailing is seen as something "wealthy" or "offbeat" people do. You're either a rich elitist, or you're some kind of Luddite.

The word "yacht" has a very negative connotation here in the US. It is commonly used to refer to large power or sailboats, typically equipped with a large cabin, and many amenities.

I barely have two coins to rub together, my boat is 40 years old, my sails are old and used, but when I mention sailing, my co-workers _constantly_ rib me about making "big money".

Also, there seems to be some wierd connection between distance traveled on the water, and wealth. If I tell them that I sail a long distance, the pokes about my perceived wealth increase. I think this is because there is an unconscious mental calcuation between distance traveled and fuel costs, and that the boat must be very large and comfortable to travel so far.

I constantly have to explain that the cost to travel 3 miles or 85 miles is the same, because the wind is free.

A friend of mine recently commented "Sailing is illegal in the United States."


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

BubbleheadMd can you please clarify this statement, just not sure how to read into it.


> A friend of mine recently commented "Sailing is illegal in the United States."


 I seem to have brought out the best in people with this thread. 

My experience has been similar to most of the views expressed. I started at a small yacht club and no one there seemed to have any money. That was 30 yrs ago. At the time i thought a 22 foot Catalina was a big boat. 
Now that i am back into sailing (last 4 yrs) i am older and i do see some separation between groups. It seems to be between the ones with newer boats and the older boats. By no means an absolute. I have found most sailors to be very down to earth and helpful. It's almost a creed. Need help go up your mast; someone is there to help. Engine trouble; 10 people show up. I loaned my car to complete strangers last year when the came in for the night; i felt obligated. I don't see the same amongst the power boat community.

Yet; i read the daily sailor news and keep tabs on the AC circuit and other big races. I have met some of these dedicated racers. They seem distant to the common sailor i know in the marina. Maybe its the formula 1 driver vs the chevy driver. 
Every time i meet a long distance voyager/cruiser i see the humility within them; Because they have seen something that rarely very few ever see, danger. It the same look i see amongst those that have been to the battlefield a few times.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Bene-

He was just making a tounge-in-cheek comment about how sailing is viewed by everyday folks and non-sailors in particular, in the US.

Seriously, when factoring in slip fees, operating and maintenance costs, he and I probably don't spend any more money than someone with an RV who travels the country, or who likes to restore old Chevy's in their garage, or someone with a powerboat equipped with a large V-8 engine.

However, the _perception_ of the way we invest our time and energy seems to give this elitist vibe in the US.

Maybe the vibe is caused because it's a "skill" that not eveyone immediately posesses?
Anyone can drive an RV.
Anyone can drive a Chevy, and most can wrench on vintage car engines.
Anyone can drive a powerboat.

Hey, I'm not making definitive statements, I'm just exploring the issue. I could be completely wrong.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

It may be elitist to outsiders

It is therapy and mesmerizing to me still after 45 years of sailing


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Many years ago I competed in a Nonsuch regatta at the Edgartown YC which is one of the elite sailing spots, the race committee wore matching blazers and flannels with ties - while on the water. I noticed that the men in the club all had first names that could be last names, like Hunter, Emerson, and Crosby. I found it particularly funny because I thought at an inner city school in Toronto. We had many poor Jamaican immigrants and the boys had similar names.

About the expensive America's Cup tickets, I doubt that individuals pay for these things. It is corporate, which means they are being paid for by all of us through tax loopholes. Wonder if such business 'entertainment' tax breaks will be addressed in the current discussions?


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

> Seriously, when factoring in slip fees, operating and maintenance costs, he and I probably don't spend any more money than someone with an RV who travels the country, or who likes to restore old Chevy's in their garage, or someone with a powerboat equipped with a large V-8 engine.
> 
> However, the perception of the way we invest our time and energy seems to give this elitist vibe in the US.


So true



> It is therapy and mesmerizing to me still after 45 years of sailing


I never thought about it till you put it to words. That's exactly right.


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## LinekinBayCD (Oct 19, 2009)

jppp said:


> Sailboat racing is a sport and certainly can be elitist but for the rest of us not at all. Sailing (day sailing or cruising)on the other hand is as much a sport as driving a motor home through Yellowstone.


I agree 100%. If I can engage in an activity while having a beer I don't call it a sport.


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## Philzy3985 (Oct 20, 2012)

I strongly believe that's just advertising gimmicks. And I think we all see through it, but it's fun to let it run its course and help the sport gain more popularity. 

I don't think that Americas Cup sailing and that elitist point of view represents the entire hobby or culture, at all. It's just a part of it - the part that makes a lot of money, the publicized, high-class-wannabe, money-driven part that has a big impact on everyone outside of the sailing world. 

Companies such as rolex and all the other major sponsors kick all that money into it so that they give off and feed into the perspective of "Rich and famous" classic beautiful wooden boats, sunsets and wine and champagne, wealthy couples in khakis and white sweaters who step off their porch in the Hamptons vacation home down to the yacht on their private dock type. You don't see Walmart or Target advertising at these events because they don't need to cater to the demographic, however I own a sailboat and I buy cleaning products and portable fans and trash bags for my boat at Target. We all know money doesn't go wasted with these companies and sex sells, that's why yacht magazines will have a full-page picture of something obscure like a teak deck and a woman's fancy heeled shoe left alone on it, all in black & white. That's it. I've seen these exact ads but couldn't tell you if it was for a boat manufacturer in TX, a broker in FL, a watch from Sweden, an investment company, or what, all I know is that some lucky dude owns that nice boat and gets a well-dress girl on it who can't wait to undress, cuz he's got money and a boat... I think that's what they're telling me...that's what my advertising class in college would say, and that's going to get potential customers to want that, too.

It's a good idea, because there certainly are people participating in sailing and boating and boat shows and shore-front races that have a lot of money to spend on luxurious goods. That's how these companies get their pay-off. A few big-ticket items go a long way. An entry level Rolex watch costs as much as like 50% of the sailboats on the market.

Of course, all that is an entirely inaccurate stereotype to apply to the whole sailing community, of DIYers, adrenaline junkies, weekend warriors, liveaboards, bareboat charters, world cruisers, people that like it as a past-time and just want to relax on the water, families with a tradition vacation trip once a year, etc. And those people participate way more in the not-so-sport of sailing.

So to the outside world, who may only see Americas Cup ads or shiny fancy boat shows and events come to town with Rolex banners or a celebrity on a yacht in the Med, that's where the elitist marketing hits hard and they're influenced to presume, "Oh, those high-society yachties on their boats in their marinas and their Rolex's" - Some people want to be looked at that way, and will buy everything they can to appear that way, and that's how the cycle continues.

The thing I like about sailing, is that it's not just a "sport" - It's only a sport when you're racing or competing and many people sailors will never even do that. It's a hobby and an interest for everyone else, which is probably most of the people who participate in the sailing community.

Those companies sure put on a good show, though.


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## benesailor (Dec 27, 2012)

> Of course, all that is an entirely inaccurate stereotype to apply to the whole sailing community, of DIYers, adrenaline junkies, weekend warriors, liveaboards, bareboat charters, world cruisers, people that like it as a past-time and just want to relax on the water, families with a tradition vacation trip once a year, etc. And those people participate way more in the not-so-sport of sailing.
> 
> So to the outside world, who may only see Americas Cup ads or shiny fancy boat shows and events come to town with Rolex banners or a celebrity on a yacht in the Med, that's where the elitist marketing hits hard and they're influenced to presume, "Oh, those high-society yachties on their boats in their marinas and their Rolex's" - Some people want to be looked at that way, and will buy everything they can to appear that way, and that's how the cycle continues.


Well said.

It's to bad that to the general public they have the Rolex view of sailing. I think it hurts sailing as a whole just when sailors are trying to entice young sailors into the hobby.

Don't mis read this. I'm not against the America's Cup at all. More power to them; i just wonder if they could have gone about it a different way. I remember the big stink when they first came out with the plans for this AC.

Is it the right direction?


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

I don't know Brent, living on board for $300 a month sounds pretty elite to me.
Elite: the choice or most carefully selected part of a group, as of a society or profession.
$300 a month puts you in a pretty elite group of live aboards, which in themselves is a pretty elite group. That you comment on it must make you an elitest. 
It is never about how much you spend, but how well you spend it. And that puts you in a very, very elite group.
I think I'm jealous.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

benesailor said:


> BubbleheadMd can you please clarify this statement, just not sure how to read into it.
> 
> 
> 
> > A friend of mine recently commented "Sailing is illegal in the United States."


Well, based upon the relative percentage of motoring to sailing done by most 'sailors' I see out there, one could easily be forgiven for presuming that such might actually be the case... (grin)


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Organized sailing in the US, under the auspices of the US Sailing Association (USSA) is offically NOT elitist.

There was a long discussion around 1990 when the Unite States Yacht Racing Union (USYRU) changed their name, and one of the main points was to ensure that n one mistook it for an elitist sport.

So, officially, by the organization that has the official sanction over all competitive sailing in the US, it is not an elitist sport.

I told them that if somebody couldn't get past the name, they probably should stick to golf anyhow.

Now, how about we start getting the dronecopter guys to send quadcopters out all over the race course, and broadcast the results on the web for free? Won't have the fancy racing lines and circles and arrows drawn on the screen, but it'll sure take the wind out of those pricey premium cable prices to watch the race, too.


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

BubbleheadMd said:


> I constantly have to explain that the cost to travel 3 miles or 85 miles is the same, because the wind is free.


The ability to harness that wind is not free, so when you shut that motor off and sail is it really, I would say not.

Intesting thread though, glad I finally stopped in to read it


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

"I constantly have to explain that the cost to travel 3 miles or 85 miles is the same, because the wind is free. "

I know a number of alleged MBAs who would say the same thing, but it just ain't so.

The immediate cost out of your pocket may be the same, but traveling 85 miles WILL cost you about 30x as much as traveling 3 miles, no matter how you slice it. Sooner of later you need to apply new bottom paint (ablative, wears off by the mile) replace blown out sails (stretch, wear, take UV damage by the mile and hour, however you prefer to measure) and even replace the rigging, which takes a load cycle and wears out every time you tack, or put strain on/off the rigging.

So while you may not feel those expenses for five or ten years, or two years for bottom paint, you still WILL eventually pay for the use of the boat, and you will pay by the hour _and _the mile for any use you put on it. Even if you don't use the batteries and lights or any other consumables.

Fixed costs, variable costs...the real MBAs can tell you how it all breaks down, but it does break down, one way or another.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Around two decades ago was seconded to join the yacht club of the town I was living in (Duxbury)but because I wouldn't throw them a bunch of parties was passed over. Joined Plymouth and got to meet Ollympians. Then was thrown out of Edgartown Y.C. for improper attire.Then thrown out the royal dinghy club because the crew was disorderly (also happy to be alive). All in one year. Oh well guess I'll never be part of the elite. Still have meet some of the finest people sailing. Some on race boats, some on little boats, some on big boats. But agree there is an elitist favor to certain strata of sailing. Still, tihnk it's a joy to watch some titan of industry learn the ropes from a yard worker and be attentive to his every word. Sea levels us all. No elite once you're on the water.


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## NaviGsr (Sep 17, 2009)

Philzy3985 said:


> Companies such as rolex and all the other major sponsors kick all that money into it so that they give off and feed into the perspective of "Rich and famous" classic beautiful wooden boats, sunsets and wine and champagne, wealthy couples in khakis and white sweaters who step off their porch in the Hamptons vacation home down to the yacht on their private dock type. You don't see Walmart or Target advertising at these events because they don't need to cater to the demographic, however I own a sailboat and I buy cleaning products and portable fans and trash bags for my boat at Target.


I'm pretty sure the "sailing lifestyle" has been used to market certain products to many people who could never afford a boat...


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## katsailor (Jan 6, 2013)

hellosailor said:


> Now, how about we start getting the dronecopter guys to send quadcopters out all over the race course, and broadcast the results on the web for free? Won't have the fancy racing lines and circles and arrows drawn on the screen, but it'll sure take the wind out of those pricey premium cable prices to watch the race, too.


We got that, Thats the really nice thing, all the AC races including fancy racing lines,circles, arrows, commentaries, fancy graphics and gizmos are being broadcast for FREE on uTube without commercial interruption.


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## svHyLyte (Nov 13, 2008)

PalmettoSailor said:


> ...Those that measure their self worth in terms of learning and harnessing the forces of nature to accomplish your aims are more likely to be sailors, and yes we are an elitist bunch.


Sailors, young or old, wealthy or not, may be and mostly are an "Elite":



> A group of people considered to be the best in a particular category, esp. because of their efforts and talent...


But, very rarely are Sailors, young or old, wealthy or not "Elitist":



> A person who believes that they are superior to others (and thus deserve favored status) because of their intellect, social status, wealth, or other factors; or, somebody who believes that society should be ruled by an elite class.


In fact, as a class, most Sailors--young or old, wealthy or not, seem to be about as egalitarian...



> believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities.


...as a group of people could be. Sailing seems to be a great equalizer and folks at a beach pot-luck never seem to care that Fred and Suzie Farkel may have come off of a 64' Swan while Jack and Jill Dokes may have come off a 27' Albin. Fred and Suzie and Jack and Jill are usually treated about the same by all but a rare few.

FWIW...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

HyLyte- Think you got it pegged. Like to think this site prooves it. Guess I'll just continue to follow Groucho advise and never join a club that will have me.(GRIN)


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## Rick486 (Sep 14, 2010)

benesailor said:


> I realize this has been hashed out before; but, after looking at ticket prices for the America cup, it really makes you wonder. It makes NASCAR look good.
> 
> Sportsmark
> 
> ...


First of all, the America's Cup is no longer about sailing. It has morphed into a freakish display of expensive technology financed by people who have skin in the game, or are super wealthy and looking for a way to spend money. Real sailboat racing is about kids down at the yacht club learning how to race Penguins, Turnabouts, or 420's. Cost to watch? $0. Sailboat racing is about club championships, regional, and national in the one design of your choice. Price of admission to watch? $0. Don't try to make this about politics and elitist accusations. I'm proud of my affiliation with sailing my entire life and I'm even more proud about what real sailboat racing is about. Sportsmanship, seamanship, skill, and teamwork practiced by folks from all walks of life. The America's Cup is a sad joke at this point not worth the effort I put into this post.


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## rmeador (Jan 16, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> So while you may not feel those expenses for five or ten years, or two years for bottom paint, you still WILL eventually pay for the use of the boat, and you will pay by the hour _and _the mile for any use you put on it.


I strongly suspect that on most boats, the equipment deterioration is dominated simply by age and maintenance, not use (most boats don't leave the slip all that often). So I think in the general case, the marginal cost for that extra hour or mile _on the water_ is very near zero.

Anyways, to the topic at hand, I think sailing is very much viewed as elitist. For most people "elite" is synonymous with "rich" Anyone who doesn't know me thinks I'm rich because I have a 37' foot sailboat. Then I tell them I live on it. Then I tell them I paid less than $50k for it. Then I tell them my monthly living expenses are less than their rent. Then they get jealous, but they no longer think I'm elite.

Anyone can afford to sail, just as anyone can afford to have a snowmobile or a muscle car or any other toys. Perhaps you can't have all the toys you want, or the size/speed/age of toys you want, but on even the most modest salary if you dedicate all your spare change to your one hobby, you can make it happen. I see a surprising number of RVs and snowmobiles and seadoos and ATVs in "poor" rural homes driveways. They just for some reason see dedication to those things as "achievable" or "normal" and dedication to "sailing" as something for the rich.


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

Re Hello Sailor and True MBAs.
You see, MBAs get it all effed up with their fixed and variable costs expressed in tomorrow's or yesterday dollars and commitment costs and opportunity costs and ....
Honestly, an unused, neglected boat costs more than one that is used and cared for. Ten year old rigging is ten year old rigging and its need for replacement is not dictated by the days of sailing but by its condition which is often more affected by neglect than use. Sails unused develop permanen creases, creating weakness and often are damaged by mold and mildew that remains unseen by the absent sailor. Running rigging is damaged by exposure to UV not by use in setting sails. 
So, in reality, it costs more to go zero miles that 85.
MBAs have a distinct handicap it measureing and reporting reality. Just remember, evey bankrupt corp in the last 50 years had MBAs and MFAs out the wazoo, and still went belly up.
So, back to elitism and sailing.


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## MikeinLA (Jul 25, 2006)

I think the public in general DOES consider sailing or power boating to be elitist. I'm always amused when I tell clients that I'm writing reports on the boat today and they give me the "Oh, on the BOAT, huh?" response. I think it's a natural response when you see someone doing something that you don't know how to do or don't think you can afford. For example, I consider private pilots with their own plane to be elitist. Same thing, I guess. I think my sister spends more playing golf than I do on the boat. 

Mike


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Rick486 said:


> First of all, the America's Cup is no longer about sailing. It has morphed into a freakish display of expensive technology financed by people who have skin in the game, or are super wealthy and looking for a way to spend money. Real sailboat racing is about kids down at the yacht club learning how to race Penguins, Turnabouts, or 420's. Cost to watch? $0. Sailboat racing is about club championships, regional, and national in the one design of your choice. Price of admission to watch? $0. Don't try to make this about politics and elitist accusations. I'm proud of my affiliation with sailing my entire life and I'm even more proud about what real sailboat racing is about. Sportsmanship, seamanship, skill, and teamwork practiced by folks from all walks of life. The America's Cup is a sad joke at this point not worth the effort I put into this post.


I don't agree. What you are saying can be applied to any sport and does not makes sense in none: Regarding cars it would be saying that F1 and WRC are not real car racing but that what is really racing is club racing, karting and Formula Ford.

Regards

Paulo


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## NaviGsr (Sep 17, 2009)

MikeinLA said:


> I think the public in general DOES consider sailing or power boating to be elitist. *I think it's a natural response when you see someone doing something that you don't know how to do *or don't think you can afford.
> 
> Mike


This is a very good point. The sentiment that if it's not common knowledge it's elitist is very prevalent in our society.

I think it also depends what part of the country you live in. Where I grew up, it wasn't just the rich kids that learned how to sail. That's not the case elsewhere.


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

is no more elitist than is car racing...lok at nascar--has everyone and his uncle runnng rum now is sanctioned...lots of dough.
formula one racing..lotsa dough.\
runnng amateur car racing--lotsa dough and npsponsorships..ouch.
prosailing--lotsa dough and sponsors.
you n me sailing--as much dough as it wants and then some, and no sponsors.
but comparison studies are like match9ng oranges and bananas....it dont work. is a diffrent sport. 
how many of us can afford the bs stuff of raing--meant to be dismantled each time out.....not me..lol
and from where did our sailing adventures come--from moneyed souls who had the dough to own shipping companies and sail for money delivering goods and services to others...and war.
the original americas cup was one schooner against another--and guess who won. was not a special boat made just for the adventure--was a legitimate race involving working schooners. we have come way long way, baby from that...now is pure bs and more money wins. also more bluster and corruption than was originally. i have lost all interest in ac racing since i watched dennis connor scam and cheat his way into ignominy. 
buying position from under the faster sailing teams is not anything but corruption---yes i heard from the tacticians of 3 teams in a jacuzzi in sd in 1995 all about the corruption in ac racing. i also got to watch the 3 downwind errors perpetrated by dc so he could lose the 1983 race...rounding up 3 times in one downwind leg is not a sailor. he was pozed to be racing, not screwing around waiting for the opposition to pass.
sorry i donot appreciate lies and cheating. i no longer have any interest in the money pit called ac.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

zeehag said:


> is no more elitist than is car racing...lok at nascar--has everyone and his uncle runnng rum now is sanctioned...lots of dough.
> formula one racing..lotsa dough.\
> runnng amateur car racing--lotsa dough and npsponsorships..ouch.
> prosailing--lotsa dough and sponsors.
> ...


Actually sailing as a low level sport is a lot less elitist than car racing.

In cars, even in low profile amateur racing you don't have nothing like an handicap system.

If you don't have a fast car you will make a miserable and ridicolous figure and fast, in cars and boats means money. Lots of it.

In boat racing you can race with a slow old boat, be the last and still win the race in compensated. Not that I like it but I have to admit that handicaps makes boat races a lot less expensive than car racing.

You can't race with the car that you use everyday, regarding sailing you can race with the boat you use to cruise (most do) and some even race with the boat they use for living

Regards

Paulo


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

It can't possibly be elitist. Why just this past week, Muffy was down to the tennis courts at the yacht club, and she tells me that not one, not one mind you, was dressed in proper tennis whites. And they were all using those horrid chartreuse balls, too. How much lower can the standards be alllowed to go, really?


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

zeehag said:


> i also got to watch the * 3 downwind errors perpetrated by dc so he could lose the 1983 race*...rounding up 3 times in one downwind leg is not a sailor. he was pozed to be racing, not screwing around waiting for the opposition to pass.


So, Dennis Connor _intentionally threw_ Race 7 to AUSTRALIA II, thus ending the longest winning streak in sports history???

Seriously???

I was out on Rhode Island Sound that afternoon, aboard the EAST CHOP with a large contingent of Aussies... We were all surprised by DC's failure to jibe and cover Bertrand on the final downwind leg in such fluky conditions, but I don't recall LIBERTY ever "rounding up"...

I doubt even Alan Bond's pockets were deep enough at the time, to have inspired DC to have taken such a humiliating, ignominious 'dive'...


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

He wasn't paid to take a dive, his family were being held hostage at a kangaroo ranch.

No, seriously...as I recall DC's reputation back then was that he wasn't the best sailor, but that he was an ace at exploiting the rules. Which is, after all, fair play.


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

As soon as you tack the word "sport" to it, it is. Sailing was my solution for an afforadable, rent free, long haul travel, life style. It was really the only way I could afford to live in my 20's. Calling it a sport indicates that it is an extracaricular activity done in the time of ones leisure. For me it has been a way of life, calling it a sport sums up someones attitude towards sailing.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> No, seriously...as I recall DC's reputation back then was that he wasn't the best sailor, but that he was an ace at exploiting the rules. Which is, after all, fair play.


i don't know, seems like he was already a pretty accomplished sailor by that time, having already won the AC twice before losing it in '83... I recall lots of chatter that year, suggesting that Conner actually worked a minor miracle to take the series to a 7th race, Ben Lexcen's wing keel being such a design breakthrough making AUSTRALIA II such a superior boat, and that Bertrand really should have won it going away in 4 or 5 races...

But obviously, any AC campaign is such a team sport, the real talent of the guy at the helm can often be disguised by the work of his tactician and crew... Probably the truest measure of Conner's talent at that time, was the fact that he had already won an Olympic Bronze Medal, and 2 World Championships in the Star class... NOBODY wins in a Star - much less on the international level - without being a pretty damn good seat-of-the-pants sailor in their own right...

At any rate, Conner certainly redeemed himself in Freemantle, taking The Cup back in the subsequent challenge. It was a pity the Cup didn't stay down there a bit longer, the racing off Freo when 'The Doctor' came calling was probably some of the most spectacular ever seen in the Cup, with the boats racing in 25 knots of breeze, and big seas... that was some great stuff...


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## FirstCandC (Mar 26, 2013)

Is sailing an elitist sport? I guess it depends on the look on your face when you get the yard bill, or after you check out at West Marine?


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

When my Kiwi friend was home for the race, she said the awards ceromony was a no admission public affair for the people, and shook her head when she saw that we sold high price tickets to attend the event here in the states. The "Elitist" concept seems to be an American Attitude.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Capt.aaron said:


> As soon as you tack the word "sport" to it, it is. Sailing was my solution for an afforadable, rent free, long haul travel, life style. It was really the only way I could afford to live in my 20's. Calling it a sport indicates that it is an extracaricular activity done in the time of ones leisure. For me it has been a way of life, calling it a sport sums up someones attitude towards sailing.


Sport is a sport and that is about that we are talking about, not cruising or living in a boat as a life style.

Why expensive? You don't need to have a boat you can race in a sailing club with the boats owned by the sailing community. Most, regarding this discussion will be thinking in racing big boats but you can have as much fun racing a dingy, a kite surf or a windsurf board. That is all sailing and if you compete or take it in a sportive way, it is a sport and a demanding one.

If you are really good at club sailing you will make it to the major league championships and will find sponsors that will pay your sport sailing passion. If you are really good and if that is what you want, you will become a professional and will be paid to make the sport you like as a life style. If you become real good among the professionals there will be sponsors and teams that will be interested in paying you for racing big boats and if you are the cream of the cream they will pay you for skippering big boats, or race alone in them.

Why is this expensive?

It seems to me that you don't like sports, particularly sailing (as a sport) but that is another story

Regards

Paulo


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## SV Siren (Mar 8, 2013)

From my point of view it is elitist as you wish to make it. I see all sorts of sizes of boats on the Great Lakes, as well as inland lakes. Yes bigger is more money, and more headaches, but plenty of people trailor their 20 footers that they paid next to nothing, or nothing for. My tastes run the gamut, but for us blue collar guys, any boat is better than no boat at all. How many of you recall their first boat with longing, whether it was a sunfish, or whatever, and remember how it was, simple, and fun.....


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## Capt.aaron (Dec 14, 2011)

PCP said:


> Sport is a sport and that is about that we are talking about, not cruising or living in a boat as a life style.
> 
> Why expensive? You don't need to have a boat you can race in a sailing club with the boats owned by the sailing community. Most, regarding this discussion will be thinking in racing big boats but you can have as much fun racing a dingy, a kite surf or a windsurf board. That is all sailing and if you compete or take it in a sportive way, it is a sport and a demanding one.
> 
> ...


You got me, I don't care for organized sports. Team sports etc. I was the kid who would rather canoe out to the back country by my self or climb a tree, hike to the top of the hill etc., than run around the city park chasing a ball. I did play American Football in J.R high thru High school, and learned dicsipline there. The sport of sailing is indeed elitist, all though my community has free sailing programs for kids. I'd rather teach kids how to sail safely across the bay on a heavy keel boat to explore the other side, than just sail around in a patteren as fast as they can on a light boat for what? to do it faster than the other kid. I compete, with the elements not the dude on the other boat. Actually, I don't really compete the elements, I move with them in Harmony, using them to propell me and my craft across the water to explore the planet....safely.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Rather watch the posts from Paulo and others of the single handed ocean sailors. Those guys are
1. nuts
2. real sailors dealing with real weather
3.have my never ending respect given their skill set and self reliance.

See the rigid sail multi hull crowd are very athletic, dealing with cutting edge technologies and fun to watch briefly. Unfortunately, it leaves me cold. Kind of like basketball now that the professional game is so unlike any we used to play in the pick up games of my youth.


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## krisscross (Feb 22, 2013)

Most sailboats and sailors I have seen on the water are far from elitist. Very nice, warm and friendly, down to earth people.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Interesting thread, I have been thinking some what about where the perception of sailing being an elitist activity comes from. 

The concept of sailing and cruising being the domain of the wealthy and select seems to be a fairly new phenomenon and seems to be influenced to some degree both by regional geography and culture.

In Europe and the UK, there are certainly enclaves of large expensive yachts on the Mediterranean, but at the same time, in much of Europe sailing and cruising, particularly in small boats is regarded as a family activity any person with a moderate income can fully expect to enjoy. In Europe, not only are small cruising boats popular with families, but Europeans in general don't seem to suffer from the same excesses as in the Americas. Not only are boats smaller, but houses and cars are smaller too. Material wealth takes a back seat to leisure time, as evidenced by the much more generous vacation laws in Europe.

We know that early sail boats, for thousands of years were primarily conveyances for people and goods and tools for harvesting from the sea. Seaman were often poor, in ancient times the wealthy seem to have been more occupied with other material goods like acquiring slaves and exotic cats to be concerned with boating for the most part, sailing was a poor-middle class activity.

Fast forward to one of the first broadly recognized modern recreational sailors, Joshua Slocum. Slocum was a poor unemployed seaman who built up a simple boat and used his skill as a seaman and determination to over come challenges that some now would have you believe can only be overcome with chart plotters and powerful winches. If you sailed at any time after Slocum, you will never be the first recreational sailor to have sailed around the world, a poor man in a simple boat will always have done it before you.

Fast forward again to the 60's, the start of the golden age of recreational sailing, brought on by strong CHEAP fiberglass boats that were accessible to nearly any person with a job.

The golden age is dead, but the same fundamental rules that have always applied, still apply today. Money does not a sailor make. Any person with $1000 to spend on a dinghy can cruise extensively, at least within the confines of their home continent, which for me is the Americas, and there is a lifetime of exploring that can be done between Canada in the North and Tierra Del Fuego in the South. 

Although some may deeply desire that sailing be an elitist sport, and try to convince you that it is, it certainly doesn't need to be. Whether you sail to travel, for exercise, for freedom, adventure, excitement or just the desire to feel unique or special, you can go out and get a boat big or small, complex or simple and sail it, just like poor, wealthy and the somewhere in between have been for thousands of years.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

I agree, I always say I sail because I know how, not because I can afford it. I CAN afford it but without the ability and knowledge then I wont use the Boat if I had one or do it at all. The golden age might be dying but for the price of a good used car anyone can get into the pastime. My Grandkids sail with me a lot and their friends think its elitist but its just their perception. So maybe it is.


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