# Could she sail the boat if necessary?



## bchaps (Mar 30, 2010)

About two years ago I was discussing our cruising plans with a part-time sailing instructor and he said "it's not your sailing skills that should be of concern, but your wife's! Could she turn the boat and get you into port if necessary?" My honest answer was "I doubt it". After spending six months cruising the Keys and US East Coast, my answer to that same question now is "absolutely not!"

Understand, my wife is a fantastic First Mate...pulls wire in the tiny floor lockers, sands and refinishes teak, cleans, cooks, helps with oil changes and hands tools when I'm half buried in the bilge. But she has no idea how to sail the boat. Yes, she does an off-coast auto pilot night watch with me sleeping in the cockpit. But as that instructor asked, I must conclude if I'm incapacitated, there isn't a chance she can drop the sails, determine a heading to return, or even dream of docking. If absolutely necessary, she could drop anchor but is clueless about the dangers of injury during windlass operation. 

Now if you're thinking..."what a ditz he's got". My sweet little beauty queen has several advanced science/math degrees in stuff I can't even spell let alone comprehend and she taught her last six years at college level until retiring.

What is lacking is desire! Just as I have no desire to understand simultaneous equations or how to balance electrons in a chemical compound, she has no desire to pick up a sailing book, learn to dock the boat, navigate, or take a sailing course.

I must now think of each cruise plan with an eye to "exposure" or the amount of time in open water. The Bahamas is our next adventure creating approximately 10 - 12 hours "exposure" time while crossing the Gulf Stream. 

I know my situation isn't unique...I've observed Captains yelling at the First Mate to drop a line, push off the piling, back down on the anchor, and on and on, telling me that First Mate doesn't understand what is necessary either. 

Am I asking too much? ...should I just drop to my knees and thank the Good Lord she is willing to sail with me and help in all the ways she does? ...or should I be concerned for her well being if "the big one" nails me?

What do you do? Can your First Mate sail/dock the boat?


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## Lake Superior Sailor (Aug 23, 2011)

I'm still looking for the one that can! Singlehanded sailor..Dale


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

Buy a sat phone?

Are you absolutely sure it is no desire or is it no desire to compete with you.
Have you discussed the safety implications of her lack of skills?

And yes I suspect many of us have a similar problem.
It could be lack of interest, lack of strength or just not much experience.

You could fake an injury.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

bchaps said:


> Can your First Mate sail/dock the boat?


Yes, he can.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Yep, mine can too. That's not to say we don't have our complementary strengths - he's the better sail trimmer, I'm the better navigator - but as a matter of safety, each of us has learned to do all the tasks required on the boat if even at a rudimentary level.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

My wife can do most things - she will not dock the boat. Last year I had an incredible staph infection on the top of the back of one leg. The swelling reached the size of a softball and I had a bit of a fever and could not get comfortable lying down or sitting - standing was ok. My wife mostly singlehanded for about a week between Easter Island and Pitcairn Island - which is a particuiarly empty part of the ocean - plus she did treatments (hot compresses, cleaning out the crud, put on topical antibiotics, put on new dressings - twice a day. I did some watches and that was about it - the infection also went I tired more easily than normal. She did not know she could do all this, but I sort of suspected that she could since she is pretty tough and resilient - grew up in China during the Cultural Revolution etc. She is now much more confident. She certainly did not enjoy it but knows she can do it.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

bchaps said:


> Am I asking too much? ...should I just drop to my knees and thank the Good Lord she is willing to sail with me and help in all the ways she does? ...or should I be concerned for her well being if "the big one" nails me?


It's possible that _your_ dream isn't _her_ dream and that she found tasks that she likes to do (or doesn't mind doing) in order to spend quality time with you. Otherwise, would you sail off and leave her at home? Not saying there's anything wrong with that, but it would be time you aren't together.

As far as her knowing how to dock and navigate, I am a proponent of all owners of a boat knowing how to return to the dock or, at the very least, drop anchor in a safe spot and wait for help, but it's possible that your wife will draw on her intelligence having watched you do all that and work it out. It might not be a picture perfect docking, but how often does that happen anyway?


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Um, with all respect, you should be having this conversation with *her* instead of with us? She's probably the best person to tell you her take on this and why she isn't interested in learning. 

Maybe, as Donna has implied, she's doing what she can to support your dream (which isn't hers). Maybe she's looking at the scene you describe of "...Captains yelling at the First Mate to drop a line, push off the piling, back down on the anchor, and on and on, telling me that First Mate doesn't understand what is necessary..." and thinking she wants to stay away from that. Wow. Notice how paternalistic and sexist that quote out of context sounds? I wouldn't want any part of it either.


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

some couples have and do work well together,others not so much,i usually sail alone,if a mistake is made i'm the only one to suffer,i fully expect there are woman sailors who are much more skilled and knowlegible than me but thats my call and my a** if the shi* hits the fan


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

why does laura dekker keep coming into my mind!


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## Tim R. (Mar 23, 2003)

Mine is eager to learn and could easily single hand our Ericson 35-3. She is working on learning the Caliber and we both practice single handing while the other is preparing food or doing some other task on the boat.

What comes natural to me after sailing for nearly 40 years is not as easy for her although she is very smart and understands most things sailing. If I were incapacitated, I know she could handle the boat just fine.

Soon she will have the confidence neccessary to handle the Caliber. It can be daunting though. We have 21 lines led into the cockpit with our cutter rig.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

My wife did not know how to sail when we met. Both divorced. She learned on her 50th birthday by taking a week long intensive course on a 43 ft cruiser. I went along too. She insisted that she grind up the main each time. She wanted to know she could do it.

After several days, the instructor, who was a middle aged salty dog, looks over at me, while she is on the winch, and says with his gravely voice and a glint in his eye..... "you're a lucky man"


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## bchaps (Mar 30, 2010)

Thank you all for your comments.....

Sailing alone is not an option for me. The boat purchase was a joint retirement decision with the understanding if/when one of us no longer finds sailing to be fun, the boat is on the sales block.

And yes, we have discussed this at length, but presenting the need does not necessarily evoke a response...at least it hasn't in our situation. However, she does enjoy sailing, and doing her thing. She bought the Sailright sewing machine and made jerry can covers, hatch covers, and is now ready to start cockpit cushions. In addition, she investigated and purchased a small pressure cooker (Fagor...what a name!) and has since developed a score of tasty one-pot dinner recipes. 

Desire is overflowing in her areas of competency, but totally lacking in the critical "save your life" areas such as return to port. She acknowledges the need but hasn't been willing to address them.

Could it be competition?...maybe. As teenagers, we married after high school, competed fiercely through college and have never stopped challenging each other since then. (she trounced me academically and financially) So, since both of us are competitive, there is a very real possibility that is the core issue. But wouldn't that cause her to demand training from a third party? I have suggested Woman-ship and other sailing courses, but there is no response.

Understand, limiting our cruising to coastal areas does minimize the "exposure" mentioned earlier. But she is more excited than I am about sailing to the bahamas fall 2012!!! 

Actually, just verbalizing the issue here and considering your comments has helped clarify that more heart to heart discussion is needed. Thanks!


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

bchaps said:


> Desire is overflowing in her areas of competency...


Please, please, tell us more!


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

bchaps said:


> She acknowledges the need but hasn't been willing to address them.


I'm not saying this is how she feels since I don't know her, I'm just putting it out there for consideration. When I'm presented with something that both of us know that I need or should do, but is beyond my comfort zone, I usually retreat into myself until I've shored up my inner bulwarks to get it done. Until *I'm* ready, my response to "You should do/learn how to [whatever]" is mostly silence and no amount of asking will change that.


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## -OvO- (Dec 31, 2011)

Sailnet needs a dedicated relationship counseling forum.


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## Southron Spirit (Dec 3, 2011)

have you explained why you want her to know this stuff ?
how about doing a book with step by step instruction on how to get 
back to the beach .

maybe every hour list in your log the closest place to sail to for help .


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## Lake Superior Sailor (Aug 23, 2011)

If your taking nominations I would suggest: jameswilson29 + smackdaddy as their so in touch with in between the lines feelings!!... Dale


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## dongreerps (May 14, 2007)

bchaps, I respectfully submit the problem is not your wife's problem, but yours. You are fearful of being out at sea, injured, or seriously ill, with your wife unable to get you back to port. That fear is your problem. 
Two responses to that. The first, to be brutal about it, is that is one of the prices of going sailing. If the price is too steep, stay at home. How boring. The second response is that if you are going to the Bahamas, you will be in good hands. In cruising through the Bahamas I have listened in on two rescues by the Bahamas rescue team. Both times were very impressive, and very efficient. No fuss, no loud voices or hurried speech, just quiet competence. Both times they flew a 172 to the area, spotted the problem and then homed a surface craft in on the 172. If your wife got on the radio with a serious problem, somebody would be alongside in a short hour or so. 
Have you played "You have the conn." game with your wife. In other words, you sail the boat, but she gives you the helm orders. Might build her confidence without her having the responsibility. YOU WILL NEED THIS SKILL in the Bahamas, as you navigate the shallows, with her on the bow finding the channel, and you steering at her direction.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

I think she could but wouldn't want to.. she steers the boat well enough and enjoys that but would not be happy doing so in nasty conditions.. or in a panic situation with me floating off somewhere. But I think she could do it. Like many here, she doesn't routinely dock the boat and that's something we should address.

This thread is a nice nudge to tend to unfinished business!


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## speciald (Mar 27, 2007)

Years ago we were tied up in a marina on Jeckle Island with friends after a sail from Jacksonville. Some how a conversation started about what to do if your husband fell overboard. One wife gave a detailed description of how she would handle the boat and get it back to its home port. It was only at the end when someone asked her -"What about Jim (her husband)?!!


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## kcblues57 (Jan 30, 2011)

Are you truly concerned that she couldn't get the boat back to the dock or do you for some reason feel compelled to train her? Because honestly, sailing isn't brain surgery. Getting the last ounce of speed out of your sails may take a lifetime of practice, but I'm betting she could take the helm if she had to and keep a somewhat steady course. As for docking, my husband keeps pushing me to learn how to dock and I keep telling him not to worry. If there's a true emergency I'm not pulling into our slip anyway; I'm motoring to the marina office and tying her up there. I know how to throw out the fenders and my docking may not be pretty, but I'll get it done. There's a first time for everything, whether it's the first practice run or the first emergency run. I'm far more worried about retrieving my husband if he goes overboard than I am about making it back to the dock. Maybe she'd consider a sailing class to learn those skills? 

I can't assume what the dynamics are in your situation, but I've found communication frequently fails when one spouse is trying to train another. Sailing has its own language and if the order you bark out isn't instantly understood, errors happen. Errors take the fun out of sailing and can lead to raised voices. Raised voices kill all the fun. Just be sure a skill is truly necessary before placing the fun at risk of a horrible death.


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## LManess (Jan 28, 2012)

Well, you might try another tact.

If you don't want this debate, how about you just consider that you are alone sailing. Not literally, just in your own mind. Run lines, both sides of the deck, always be in a harness, when you go out of the cabin shackel your harness onto one of the lines.

Sailing is often a very small part of what we actually do, unless your going 28 days from the Panama canal to the Galapagoes. If your sailing to the Bahamas, so it takes 3 or 4 days - that's not a lot to be in a harness. You'll be in port for weeks whooping it up with your loved one.

Harnesse are really not a bad idea for either of you on the open water. If you fall in, you can pull yourself back on. Think about it. If you fall over the side alone or fall over the side while she's not on watch you're done for anyway if you aren't attached to the boat. Be safe. If you switch watches, she is on and your off, the same goes for her too. You won't be there when she goes over the side, you'll be asleep below. Hopefully you'll hear a yelp but maybe not. So, do the best you can so you don't need her to manuever back to get you.

I remember one thing a sailing instructor said to me, if you see someone go over the side and you know you don't have the skill to manuever the boat. Take a bearing, let go all the halyards, start your engine and turn around - don't try to be an expert sailor if you're really not one.

Linda


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## youmeandthed (Jan 19, 2012)

Do you let her try to do these things. My wife was green as can be and our berth in the marina was seriously tight. I just gave her the tiller, gave her a few pointers and hopped on the bow with the biggest bumper we had. 

Maybe she just never felt like she had to know.


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## mgmhead (Jan 14, 2007)

bchaps said:


> What do you do? Can your First Mate sail/dock the boat?


Why yes she can... very well too. She can dock as well as anyone I know. 
She is familiar with the 'rules of the road' and how to read a chart.

Grip and upper body strength aren't her strong points but she has wits and finesse. Dealing with the sails would be her biggest challenge but she'd get it done.

Glad to say my wife can handle our boat...MGM


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

My wife is have taken lessons, but since I sail as a vocation we haven't sailed togther in close to 5 years. With a refresher she would be fine. Yes, I certified her BEFORE we were a couple.

Why is that the only time I see women on the helm (huge generalization, I know) is anchoring? With a windlass anyone can anchor; without a windlass and a little thought anyone can anchor. I had a 89 pound lady raise an anchor without a windlass. 

When docking, it makes more sense to me that the woman should dock the boat and the man should step off with the line(s). Men tend to have more upper body strength and may need to control the vessel once at the dock.

BTW - apparently if a couple goes sailing and only one returns, the insurance company will pay out. Everyone should learn MOB.


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## bchaps (Mar 30, 2010)

Wow...great comments! Thank you. 

We had a heart to heart discussion this morning and I got beyond silence (Donna, you may have been on the mark).

Yes, she does take the helm on open water and on the ICW where depth isn't an issue...definitely not through the Rock Cut nor any inlets. And we do tether whenever we're outside. All lines terminate in the cockpit, so there is no need to go forward in bad weather. Jack line will be added before crossing the Gulf Stream.

Long ago I learned that I am not my wife's instructor. ...taught her to drive stick shift...not good...just had to overlook grinding gears and a bucking car. But far worse was downhill skiing...disaster! don't think we talked for several days. We both agreed any further instruction would be done by a Pro...and I should not be present.

We both took ASA 101,103, 104 but I was present... not optimal for us. Now she is looking for a "hands-on" female sailing instructor within two hours drive of the Oriental, NC area. 

Please tell me if you have any recommendations.
Thank you


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## sfchallenger (May 17, 2011)

Glad your convo went well. If you aren't already, do regular man-overboard drills. It's best if it isn't planned out, so maybe ask you wife to take the helm, go fiddle with something on the foredeck, 'lose' your hat or something overboard and ask your wife to keep driving while you scramble around downstairs for a boathook you've conveniently managed to misplace somewhere. The best scenario for this would be with you sailing close-hauled with plenty of sea room.

You can come clean after the fact, and then suggest that you make it a regular part of your routine, and include practice starting from all points of sail.


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## oslokid (Dec 20, 2011)

I'd like to expand a little on Jackdale's insightful post earlier about docking / anchoring. BTW...this is my first post and this topic is one my wife and have discussed at length and have come up with a solution that works for us. We are both "noobs" in a sailing club here in the SF Bay Area and got our ASA certs about a year ago. Early on, practicing docking and other maneuvers it became clear that me at the helm and her on deck lassoing dock cleats/snagging spring lines scared the bejeezus out of me. So we came up with a plan. Put her at the helm... I'll be the lookout (she is shorter) and then use non-verbal signals to get her in / out of docks and I handle all the lines, etc. It took some practice but it has worked out great. It has boosted her confidence and looks pretty cool.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

oslokid said:


> ..... and then use non-verbal signals to get her in / out of docks .


This is the key... we have no windlass, a 35#CQR and a fair bit of chain and there's no way my wife feels able to handle that. She drives and I anchor, (just like she drives when I gibe the pole) - anyhow years ago we developed our own hand signals and it's rare indeed to have actually try to converse from the bow to the stern about what we're doing.

But I can't keep track of how many times we've been enjoying our post-anchor drinks and listened to others in the anchorage trying to do all this with verbal commands and questions. It so often devolves into yelling which still can only be heard by everyone else but themselves.

We always strive to keep our EQ* to a minimum....

* _Entertainment Quotient_


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

oslokid said:


> So we came up with a plan. Put her at the helm... I'll be the lookout (she is shorter) and then use non-verbal signals to get her in / out of docks and I handle all the lines, etc. It took some practice but it has worked out great. It has boosted her confidence and looks pretty cool.


That's pretty much the way we do it too - put the muscle on the foredeck with hand signals and the finesse on the helm :laugher . Bonus: so many dockhands are so taken off guard by a woman at the helm they go out of their way to help. As far as your rep at the marina, they give your boat double credit for anything done well, and only half the disdain for anything done poorly. And the hand signals just make you look pro.

PS - welcome to sailnet


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## rugosa (Aug 30, 2011)

Practise, practise, practise - nobody knows how it will pan out until the poop actually hits the fan. I know if I tried the 'accidental' sfchallenger suggests it would not be pretty, resulting in a frigid response. We do fender overboard practices TOGETHER and then solo, same with anchoring. Good to see responses to this thread from both view points - I can count numerous superior women sailors in our area, many accompanied by partners that still have lots to learn.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

sfchallenger said:


> Glad your convo went well. If you aren't already, do regular man-overboard drills. It's best if it isn't planned out, so maybe ask you wife to take the helm, go fiddle with something on the foredeck, 'lose' your hat or something overboard and ask your wife to keep driving while you scramble around downstairs for a boathook you've conveniently managed to misplace somewhere. The best scenario for this would be with you sailing close-hauled with plenty of sea room.
> 
> You can come clean after the fact, and then suggest that you make it a regular part of your routine, and include practice starting from all points of sail.


Sorry, but ugh! Manipulative and paternalistic. Your goal is to make her your PARTNER, not to make yourself the superior and her your student or child. If you tried this with me, you'd either be hatless or swimming for it yourself. How about doing the drills together, to understand how the boat behaves? Then each of you does it alone while the other watches silently? Oh, and use a piece of bread as the overboard item - that way there's no emotion if your retrieval is unsuccessful.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

rugosa said:


> Practise, practise, practise - nobody knows how it will pan out until the poop actually hits the fan. I know if I tried the 'accidental' sfchallenger suggests it would not be pretty, resulting in a frigid response. We do fender overboard practices TOGETHER and then solo, same with anchoring.


Oops, sorry rugosa, posted my response before I saw yours, I agree totally. (It looked like I ignored your post; actually, great minds think alike, and post simultaneously as well.)


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## sfchallenger (May 17, 2011)

I'd suggest that MOB drills ought to be a suprise. Because losing someone overboard surely will be. If you can't handle picking up a hat that's fallen overboard, how will you deal with the situation when it's your spouse?


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

bchaps said:


> ...What is lacking is desire! Just as I have no desire to understand simultaneous equations or how to balance electrons in a chemical compound, she has no desire to pick up a sailing book, learn to dock the boat, navigate, or take a sailing course.
> 
> ...
> Am I asking too much? ...should I just drop to my knees and thank the Good Lord she is willing to sail with me and help in all the ways she does? ...or should I be concerned for her well being if "the big one" nails me?
> ...


bchaps, I don't think your analogy is fair: the difference is that you are not embarking on a life that will require you to solve simultaneous equations or balance electrons. She *is* embarking on a life that requires at least minimal knowledge of navigation and boat handling to keep you both safe.

Glad you feel you've gotten some insight from the varied voices that have responded to your initial post - its a fair question. PS - we loved the sailing in the Bahamas; my avatar is a photo taken off Black Point about halfway down the Exumas chain. In mid-January.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

wingNwing said:


> Sorry, but ugh! Manipulative and paternalistic. Your goal is to make her your PARTNER, not to make yourself the superior and her your student or child. If you tried this with me, you'd either be hatless or swimming for it yourself. How about doing the drills together, to understand how the boat behaves? Then each of you does it alone while the other watches silently? Oh, and use a piece of bread as the overboard item - that way there's no emotion if your retrieval is unsuccessful.


If I'm understanding you correctly, Jay, I'm not sure that I agree. But, neither do I understand the fake loss of the hat scenario either. Why trick someone into doing the drill? Have an adult conversation and make it part of your regular trip planning, like filling in your log book or checking your systems before getting under way. Maybe plan to have a drill once a month. Maybe I figured out what Jaye meant. 

We do the surprise MOB drills in our CG training and on regular patrols to ensure that the crew is really keeping a proper watch as well as to practice the MOB procedure. Perhaps a compromise would be to decide before getting under way that at any time during the trip you'll throw over a decided upon object? We used either a ring buoy or a giant yellow duck with a hook attached to its back until the CG issued us proper MOB mannequins that simulated the weight of an average person.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

sfchallenger said:


> I'd suggest that MOB drills ought to be a suprise. Because losing someone overboard surely will be. If you can't handle picking up a hat that's fallen overboard, how will you deal with the situation when it's your spouse?


In a perfect world, sure, MOBs are surprises. But bchaps isn't in that perfect world; he's trying to get his wife to the early stages of some significant skills, so you start slow. Walk before you run, and all that.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

DRFerron said:


> Why trick someone into doing the drill? Have an adult conversation ... Maybe I figured out what Jaye meant.


Yep, you did. Exactly.


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## tankersteve (Jun 22, 2007)

*"teaching" your significant other*

Being an instructor in a relationship can be fraught with peril, especially if you, yourself, are not truly an expert.

I taught my wife to drive a manual. She actually enjoys it now and prefers a car with a stick. But I was a car FANATIC, followed racing, could effortlessly do heel and toe downshifts, and generally knew more than the average schmoe. My knowledge was more than adequate and I had the patience to work with her.

My ability to teach her sailing is not nearly the same thing. I just don't have the proficiency myself to teach her. When we get our boat (completely ashore at this time), as our experience grows, I know she will add to her repertoire of skills, just as I will.

Tankersteve


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Teaching itself is a learned skill. Many think they can teach their spouse by telling or showing them what to do. There is significantly more to it. Will you use repetition or guided discovery for example. Planning how much you are going to teach in a given session and being able to recognize when a student is only saying they understand are important.

Hey honey, watch me, isn't teaching. The Captain issuing an instruction to do something in the moment is not teaching someone to know to do it themselves the next time.

I'm not a sailing instructor, but taught underwater diving back in my late 20s. You didn't get into the instructor program unless you were already a proficient diver. But I had many buddies who were and most could not teach anyone else. You spent the program learning how to teach (well not killing your students was important too.)

There were a couple of exercises that were interesting. They made you sit on the other side of a wall from a mock student who had a pack of cigarettes and a lighter in front of them. The student was only to do exactly as they were told. Each instruction was to be followed to the letter and no more. The instructor candidate was to explain how to get a cigarette out of a closed pack, to their mouth and lit with the lighter. Hilarious outcomes, almost none ever got it done. Some students would have entire packs in their mouths, lighting the cellophane on fire. The other interesting exercise was to have your teaching recorded and played back to you. At first, despite knowing the material cold, you stink at it.

The most common mistake is to try to explain everything you know about a topic. This is very common when the topic is something you are passionate about. It also happens when the male chromosome is trying to show the female chromosome that he is deserving of her admiration.

Having a pro teach will also show your spouse that _you've learned_ what you don't know.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

Minnewaska said:


> There were a couple of exercises that were interesting. They made you sit on the other side of a wall from a mock student who had a pack of cigarettes and a lighter in front of them. The student was only to do exactly as they were told. Each instruction was to be followed to the letter and no more. The instructor candidate was to explain how to get a cigarette out of a closed pack, to their mouth and lit with the lighter. Hilarious outcomes, almost none ever got it done. Some students would have entire packs in their mouths, lighting the cellophane on fire.


Today's chore is scrubbing the mold from behind the shelves on the v-berth. If any humorous image will make the job go a little easier, this one is it. Thanx M for lightening my load. :laugher


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## bobnpaula (Nov 17, 2008)

I have a feeling that your own attitude might be standing in the way of your wife learning more about how to take the helm and sail the boat. My husband and I share responsibilities on our boat, and I freely admit that of the two, I am the one who is more obsessed with sailing... but we each have our strengths. His: sail trim, being on the bow with the windlass when we anchor, (I am busy at the helm, navigating the anchorage and picking the right spot to anchor) engine checks. Mine: navigating, researching for a cruise, finding the model number of whatever gizmo we need, CRUISING SAILNET, keeping track of weather, chief cook and bottle-washer. But, we both know how to ( and like) take the helm, drop and lower sails, dock the boat. I have never felt pushed aside when I want to take the helm or tweak the mainsail. Are you one of those "Captains" who insists on planting himself behind the wheel (or on the tiller) and shouting orders?? No wonder she can't "turn the boat around and dock".. she has never been given the chance. Solutions to your problem include giving your partner more opportunities to take the helm and sail the boat; her taking a lesson with a pro, without you; or maybe, her going along as crew on someone else's boat... I bet she would learn a whole lot when you are not around. It is hard for me to understand how someone as bright as she obviously is would not want to know more about how to safely get herself back home. I'd love to hear her side of this story! btw, I am not the "Admiral" on our boat... I am the co-Captain. (really hate that Admiral crap!)


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

I've been watching this thread with interest because I am in the same boat as bchaps. I read the replies and chuckle; They are what I would have posted if I had not gone through this with my own first mate.



bchaps said:


> Am I asking too much? ...should I just drop to my knees and thank the Good Lord she is willing to sail with me and help in all the ways she does? ...or should I be concerned for her well being if "the big one" nails me?


I don't know if you are asking too much; I ask that question of myself many times.

Yes, you should be grateful that you have crew that is willing to sail with you and participate in the chores. The alternative, without her onboard, is less pleasant so you should be grateful for even half a crew. Remember, even if she can't get you back to safety, you won't be completely alone should you become incapacitated.

As for your last question, I'll withhold my opinion.



DRFerron said:


> It's possible that _your_ dream isn't _her_ dream and that she found tasks that she likes to do (or doesn't mind doing) in order to spend quality time with you. Otherwise, would you sail off and leave her at home? Not saying there's anything wrong with that, but it would be time you aren't together.


I think this nails it for my situation. It's my dream, and not hers. She enjoys being out there somewhat and comes along with to spend quality time with me. When buying the boat, we consciously talked about the subject being equal partners in the venture; I explicitly wanted an activity we could do together and that the investment was big enough, I didn't want her to back out and say, "Go on, I'll just stay here" as she does with so many of my other hobbies. If I wanted to be alone I wouldn't be in a relationship.

Many of these replies in this thread make logical, rational assumptions during logical, rational arguments... that don't apply in the irrational world of human nature. For example, explaining the safety implication of needing to learn the basics of sailing; logically, this makes sense but after an intro course to sailing, a few years at the yacht club, constant discussion and watching volvo ocean races and over 6-weeks cruising the Great Lakes, she cannot remember the terminology for 3 corners of a sail vs the 3 sides of a sail. Why? Because it's not in her realm of interest. Just as I can't remember who wore what to the Grammy's or who's having kids with who in Hollywood or which colours are in for this season or when my next dental appointment is ... those details just never stick with me because my brain says they aren't important to me. You can't push a rope and you can't make someone remember something if they have no desire to tuck it away - even if it is logical and rational to do so.

FWIW, we sailed 6-weeks on the Great Lakes this summer; Lake Huron, Georgian Bay/North Channel, Lake Erie and Lake Ontario including Detroit/St. Claire rivers and Welland canal. She handled it like a champ. Even though she does not swim and is naturally an anxious person, she did well. Yet she still won't take the helm, start the engine, or take a stab at navigation because she's deathly afraid. The trip built some confidence, but we still have a long way to go...

Lastly, I found a local program by women sailors for women sailors and am encouraging her to join. By getting involved I hope that she picks up, not the skills, but the motivation to love sailing and boats. After that, it's just a matter of learning over time. bchaps, perhaps being more involved in some sailing community would help your mate become more enthused about the program? I notice my mate likes to have a friend onboard to whom she can pass on her limited knowledge... Perhaps ask her to help you teach a friend or child how to sail? By teaching someone else, she must first learn herself.

edit: I missed post #13 where you said you did fine a women's program and she wasn't interested. d'oh. Excuse me for being redundant. However, perhaps there is another program, such as teaching disadvantaged youth to sail. At our yacht club, we have women-only race nights which might be a big draw if she is competitive. I still think it boils down to encouraging her to put her mind to the task.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

First of all, I feel that the OP has a valid concern where he feels that his spouse should have some level of functionality if he becomes immobilized or falls overboard. If you need real proof of this, look at our own Imagine2Frolic. His wife, Mel has had to assume control of the boat more than once to get him to medical care.

Since the OP and his wife are competitive, and history has shown that a 3rd party must always teach her new things to avoid marital discord, I feel that a 3rd, independent party would be useful in explaining to her that she _must_ be able to operate the boat on her own for these longer voyages. Then the 3rd party should be the one to teach her.

Everyone has a different personality, and different motivators. When trying to teach someone or direct someone, it helps to know what motivates them so that you can get them to learn or complete the task at hand.

I have "tricked" a few reluctant ladies into driving my boat, but always gently and never making them look foolish as in "aha! I tricked you!". Usually it's just "Oops, gotta pee. Here, drive for a minute!" and I shove the tiller in their hands.

I run down below, take a leak, then come back up and teach* them. In a few minutes, fear of crashing the boat gives way to enjoyment as they understand the forces at work and get a feeling of accomplishment. I think it also says a lot that I would trust them with my 30 foot boat. One of my daughters is a freakin' natural. She _loves_ driving the bus.

*- There's a lot more to it, when I say I "teach" someone, but it would make the post too long.


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

jackdale said:


> When docking, it makes more sense to me that the woman should dock the boat and the man should step off with the line(s).


That's how we do it. When the motor is running my wife is at the helm probably 90% of the time.

To the OP, this is a safety issue. Something COULD happen to you, and your wife needs to realize this. Maybe that's the problem--she is unwilling to contemplate the possibility of you being incapacitated, and she has to do that before she can see any need for her to know this stuff. Sort of like the people who think it's to "icky" to contemplate dying, and so they never get around to making out a will.

Maybe you could make a game out of it. Like, one day when you're both in the cockpit, pick up a life jacket, say "you know me, I'm a clumsy oaf... oops! I just fell over board." Let go of the helm, toss the life jacket over, and ask her "what are you going to do now?"


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

BubbleheadMd said:


> First of all, I feel that the OP has a valid concern where he feels that his spouse should have some level of functionality if he becomes immobilized or falls overboard.


Yes indeed. I hope you don't think I was implying otherwise. My point is that there are lots of wives, and even more ex-wives that have ZERO interests in sailing, boats or spending time in a marriage with their husbands. You must be grateful for every bit of interest above ZERO. It is ideal, for safety, comfort and a million other reasons, to have an equal sailing partner but you should be grateful for every bit of skill and interest above nothing.



BubbleheadMd said:


> Since the OP and his wife are competitive, and history has shown that a 3rd party must always teach her new things to avoid marital discord


I agree. I think he mentioned she was looking for women's courses and I also suggested women's programs that encourage racing; You're involved and "taught" by other women who are both competitive and not your husband. ;-)



BubbleheadMd said:


> I have "tricked" a few reluctant ladies into driving my boat, but always gently and never making them look foolish as in "aha! I tricked you!". Usually it's just "Oops, gotta pee. Here, drive for a minute!" and I shove the tiller in their hands.


aside: I tried that in our boat during 30+ knots on a 25 hour passage; Autohelm couldn't take the waves and neither could my bladder; I really did have to pee and she still won't touch the tiller! The only effective argument was, "If you won't take the tiller, and my bladder won't hold out much longer, I'll just have to pee into the cockpit drains..." and even then, I was only allowed to stand in the companion way and I still had to 'drive' by shouting (it was windy, not in anger) directions to turn the helm to keep us going down the 14' waves.



BubbleheadMd said:


> I run down below, take a leak, then come back up and teach* them.


She makes me setup autohelm if I need to do that. *sigh* 

It sounds like bchaps wife is a very competent person so I suspect the only problem is the lack of motivation.

In my case, my first mate has high anxiety issues on top of her disinterest; She is highly anxious regarding only some things. She does not swim, but jumped off a boat with a life jacket to go snorkelling on a reef. A second trip to a reef when she did the same thing, she froze up and was so terrified her body was paralysed in the water (life jacket on of course); I had to flip her onto her back and drag her back to the boat... she couldn't move her legs to kick. There's something about controlling a boat (or a car) that sends fear through her and she won't do either. And a humourous one, she is highly anxious of leaving voice mail messages... That's probably a whole other thread, and maybe years of counselling.


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## KookyCapt (Feb 11, 2011)

I guess I am lucky. My first mate is an excellent crewwoman. She is not the same sailor as I am but I don't expect that. She has had good judgement that I trust and listen to.

Does she get excited duiring the first couple hours of a blow? Of course. 
If things look dicey for docking, does she insist I stay close to tell her what to do? You betcha.

But I am pretty certain she could get us to safe harbor. Maybe not the one I would have chosen, but that would be OK.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Whenever I see a macho maniac yelling at his spouse because he thinks he's Captain Bligh's student... I wonder how many guys were really "lost" at sea and wives were not "able" to save them....>evil grin< 

"when I looked .. he just wasn't there! (sobbing, more sobbing...) So I grabbed the radio and called you the coast guard" CG Officer studies her... wonders if she's really as upset as she appears to be....

jus sayin....


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

There's plenty of dirt to be tossed at both genders. The ocean would be filled with bodies. Just sayin......


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

maybe sharks are fatter along cruiser routes?


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

KookyCapt said:


> ...Maybe not the one I would have chosen, but that would be OK.


Arranged marriage???


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> Arranged marriage???


Ah, the things we can do, with quotes taken out of context.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

Another sailing couple in need of marriage counseling!

"What do you mean I am not the one you would have chosen?

I have seen you staring at that woman on the powerboat in the Brazilian thong bikini!

Go ahead, you think you can sail without me...I will take my overflowing desire to overflow somewhere else!"

Paging Dr. Phil...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

The last woman that caught my attention on a nearby boat was wearing less than a Brazillian thong whatever. Zip, nada. Right on the mooring next to us. We refer to her frequently as that French girl, when we tell the story. The really funny part is that we have no recollection as to why we believe she was French.

My wife and I are still happily saling together. It could not be ignored.


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## bchaps (Mar 30, 2010)

Follow-up from OP....

We've had numerous discussions and a sailing instructor has been recommended. Since we'll be at the boat before March, the timing for this thread has been perfect.

However, I want to note for the benefit of others. We married right out of high school and immediately were immersed in an academic environment. She pursued a career in Education and I in Management. Although we physically built our own home, I was lead carpenter, she was lead helper. Otherwise, her life was Mom to four sons, husband, and teacher.

It wasn't until 40 years later that we bought a boat and began a six month cruise. It was at this time I noticed totally unexpected "issues" pertaining to navigation, charts, and using certain boat equipment. Candidly, I have little patience when an intelligent person doesn't quickly learn to perform what I see as a simple task or learn a simple concept..if the person is intelligent, it must be an attitude problem, right? However, several other recent land "incidents" have also occurred causing me to suggest to my educator wife that the "boat problem" may be much more heavily aptitude based than attitude based. I have no reason to feel age is a factor, but rather think these boat related tasks and concepts are totally different than those she has ever encountered in her prior 40 years, ... other than learning to drive stick shift and down-hill skiing. I have always handled the mechanical tasks in our daily lives..

An academic classroom instructor has little interaction with mechanical items and support people are available if any problems occur. There is no need to "think through" or analyze anything mechanical in a text book. But a boat is entirely mechanical! ...imposing a myriad of new problems and devices never encountered before. ...and what may seem extremely elementary to most of us could be an unbelievable hurdle to someone not blessed with mechanical aptitude. As Sherlock Holmes said "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." 

In our case, I no longer think it's lack of desire, but rather aptitude. Even though she grew up on a farm and in a rural setting, three brothers were the mechanics relegating her to traditional domestic tasks. So from toddler to retiree, she was never exposed to mechanical concepts ... causing "boat things" to be like someone speaking Swahili and wondering why you don't respond. I will now approach the situation from an entirely different position.

Definition: Disappointment = when expectations exceed reality.

So men, if your sweet little lady just can't get it, it may be that she never had it from the start. Divide the tasks so she can perform what she is capable of doing safely and PATIENTLY realize she MAY never understand how your Davis windex determines which way to turn the wheel when tacking. And if necessary, lower your expectations. Look at the positives, it will develop your skill getting out of irons.

Ladies, please don't flame me unless you really understand what I'm saying.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

I'm not convinced aptitude is anything more than a justification. I mean, rudimentary sailing, isn't exactly rocket science. I would say it is quite a bit easier than other tasks such as operating a motor vehicle. The difference is that we typically learn to drive a vehicle earlier in life and even those that don't do it well end up perform that task repetitively until they are able to do it without too much concentration.

I had a guest onboard, an intelligent 30-year old girl. I told her that using a tiller was "easier than steering a car". She took the helm for less than 5 minutes on a beam reach and decided it was "too hard" and questioned why I said it was easier to learn than a car. I asked her if she was immediately able to drive a car as well as she did today or if she spent days in Driver's Ed program and years perfecting it... she saw my point.

The same will happen if you give an adult a guitar; If they have no interest or desire to learn and spend the hours and hours and hours to practice, they'll consider the instrument difficult. It's not aptitude, it's just the attitude to stick with the program. Anyone can play but not everyone can play well.

Aptitude may limit the maximum skill in sailing, driving or a musical instrument but it doesn't prevent someone from learning the basics.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

*Condescending...*

Look how the language usage in the 2 previous posts reveals condescending attitudes toward women:

Referring to your wife as a "sweet little lady" or "beauty queen" objectifies her and portrays her as some than less than an equal. Who care if you have greater mechanical appitude? I am fairly certain she possesses abilities and talents greater than yours in certain areas, such as human relations and empathy.

Referring to a 30 year old female as a "girl" similarly reflects a condescending attitude. A 30 year old female is a woman, not a girl. What does that say about how you view her?


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## KnottyGurl (Feb 8, 2011)

Says it all


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> Look how the language usage in the 2 previous posts reveals condescending attitudes toward women:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Referring to a 30 year old female as a "girl" similarly reflects a condescending attitude. A 30 year old female is a woman, not a girl. What does that say about how you view her?


What ridiculous rubbish you've posted. Female, woman, lady, girl, none of which are derogatory, none of which are slang or demeaning. If you want specifics she's actually 34, my age, and would fall down laughing if she read what your non-construcive post.

To be constructive, lets talk about better methods for generating interest in sailing. I really want to motivate my girlfriend/wife (or should I call her womanfriend?) as well as generate interest in a bunch of my other friends - male/female/boys/girls/men/women - in sailing so they can serve as crew.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

JordanH said:


> What ridiculous rubbish you've posted. Female, woman, lady, girl, none of which are derogatory, none of which are slang or demeaning. If you want specifics she's actually 34, my age, and would fall down laughing if she read what your non-construcive post.


I don't think it's rubbish. I think it depends on the woman of whom you are speaking, perhaps not across the board. I'm not so into being called a "little lady" myself but that's just me. I think depending on your background, age, and culture being called a "little lady" or a "girl" at a clearly adult age can be construed as demeaning.

It's the same concept behind addressing people as "ma'am" or "sir." When I was a child I was taught by my mother never to say either because she grew up in a time of segregation and to her it was subservient. To others it's a sign of respect. I'm old enough to get my mother's point and young enough to realize that it isn't meant in that same context by everyone. I don't have the scars that she does.



JordanH said:


> To be constructive, lets talk about better methods for generating interest in sailing. I really want to motivate my girlfriend/wife (or should I call her womanfriend?) as well as generate interest in a bunch of my other friends - male/female/boys/girls/men/women - in sailing so they can serve as crew.


I was at this point when we bought a boat large enough to comfortably sail more than just the two of us. I quickly came to realize that my friends just weren't into it as I was. I'm saying that to say don't get your hopes up *too* high that your circle of friends will be as motivated to learn how to sail as you want them to be. We compromised and now have a group of sailing friends (who already have boats) and a group of non-sailing friends.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

I'm with Donna and James - I have this "thing" for calling people by the name they want to be called (within reason). If the words mean nothing, as you assert, then it would be just as easy to refer to her as a woman than as a girl, ya think? (Except that the second term is more subject to be taken in a derogatory way than the first. If its REALLY just the same to you either way, if you see it as all "just words," then what does it cost you to minimize the chance for misunderstanding?)


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

DRFerron said:


> It's the same concept behind addressing people as "ma'am" or "sir." When I was a child I was taught by my mother never to say either because she grew up in a time of segregation and to her it was subservient.


I had a firearms instructor who told me to always be polite to people. It can't hurt, it might help, and it doesn't make them one bit more bulletproof if you have to shoot them.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

*sigh*

It's rubbish because I was not being condescending at all in the use of the term or towards my friend.

I don't disagree that calling someone by a name that irks them is, well, irksome. If you call a 30-ish year old girl a woman, they often feel like you are calling them old. If you call a 20-something woman a girl, they may construe it as condescending. If you call a 40-something ma'am, she may think you're talking about her mother. But that has absolutely nothing to do with my post above, my opinion of women and completely off-topic from this thread.

My point is that it is rubbish to state that I am being condescending in my post to her or any woman. Did anyone else construe my post that way? Before internet hero's go off defending a cause, lets make sure there was a victim.

DRFerron, your latter comment is what I'm worried about. From a friend's perspective, I like the social company of my friends and would prefer to not have to start yet another group of friends just for sailing. From a wife perspective, it's tough to have two groups there... one wife is certainly enough for me to handle! ;-)



wingNwing said:


> If its REALLY just the same to you either way, if you see it as all "just words," then what does it cost you to minimize the chance for misunderstanding?)


Yes, I could have been even more politically correct and stated that I was sailing with a 30-year old female... or a 30-year old person... or even just a person. But really? Take a look through any of my posts and threads on this forum and see if I try in every post to be constructive, objective and give any indication that I care if you are male, female, young or old. Yes, it REALLY is just a word. Good thing I didn't call her "some chick". *grin*


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

JordanH said:


> *sigh*
> 
> It's rubbish because I was not being condescending at all in the use of the term or towards my friend.


Because _you_ don't think you weren't being condescending doesn't make it any less so if the subject of your remarks thinks you were.  I realize you weren't addressing anyone here, just putting out something to think about.



JordanH said:


> I don't disagree that calling someone by a name that irks them is, well, irksome. If you call a 30-ish year old girl a woman, they often feel like you are calling them old. If you call a 20-something woman a girl, they may construe it as condescending. If you call a 40-something ma'am, she may think you're talking about her mother. But that has absolutely nothing to do with my post above, my opinion of women and completely off-topic from this thread.


It's tricky, 'tis true.



JordanH said:


> DRFerron, your latter comment is what I'm worried about. From a friend's perspective, I like the social company of my friends and would prefer to not have to start yet another group of friends just for sailing. From a wife perspective, it's tough to have two groups there... one wife is certainly enough for me to handle! ;-)


Sharing a Google calendar helps us tremendously. It also helps that my SO just wants to know when we're going and what he should wear.


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## MobiusALilBitTwisted (Jun 25, 2007)

This is why i stick with"Young Lady" no matter the age of the female i am addressing unless i know there name, then i use it. as for males i use name or sir. End of Story


only had 1 (in 20 years)female get mad at being called "young Lady" and that is a a tale for another telling


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

MobiusALilBitTwisted said:


> This is why i stick with"Young Lady" no matter the age of the female i am addressing unless i know there name, then i use it. as for males i use name or sir. End of Story
> 
> only had 1 (in 20 years)female get mad at being called "young Lady" and that is a a tale for another telling


You and my dad with the "young lady", Mobes.


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## MobiusALilBitTwisted (Jun 25, 2007)

Why muck with what works................


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

When I learned to use Sir and Ma'am, it was definitely both subservient and a show of respect. Most of us continue to use that language as a show of respect.

As far as "little lady", I know of no male that likes to be called "little man".


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

MobiusALilBitTwisted said:


> This is why i stick with"Young Lady" no matter the age of the female i am addressing unless i know there name,


That's what's funny. My wife would find that condescending. You, of course, wouldn't mean it that way.

And as for little man, well, my cousin's son was called little man when he was 2. He wasn't offended... but any age after that is probably a bad choice. As for little lady, I think only John Wayne could pull that off.

The real solution is for people to be less sensitive about such petty things. It is not the words, it is the tone, body language and intention of such terms that is important.

So... back on track. Motivating significant others to take part in sailing. This may include wives, husbands, children or others that you would like to partake in the sport.

FWIW, a friend of mine just met a cute [woman|girl|female|chick|member of the opposite sex] during a match racing meeting we had at the yacht club... I think he may be interested in starting his sailing career off in match racing.  Sometimes, it's just all about finding the right motivation.

What other (better) ways are there to get people interested?


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

JordanH said:


> ...
> 
> FWIW, a friend of mine just met a cute [woman|girl|female|chick|member of the opposite sex] during a match racing meeting we had at the yacht club...


I'm OK being called a chick. 



JordanH said:


> What other (better) ways are there to get people interested?


You could invite them during special events: fireworks, boat parades, etc. But at some point, after repeated invitations are turned down, you just have to call it a day. They'll stop wanting to hang out at all if you try to force the issue.


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## chef2sail (Nov 27, 2007)

I am truly lucky. My wife has begun sailing only 8 years ago and in that time she has gradually added to her resume with trips we have taken to New England and the LI Sound every year. It has been a gradual thing as I wanted he to gain confidence in herself and her handling ability of the boat.

It was never a competion between us as I have sailed for well over 40 years and have had a good amount of blue water and 2 transatalantic crossings before we even met and bought our current boat. While she has taken some ASA courses the best training she has gotten have been the many experiences and situatuions we have been in together. The more we use the boat the more experiuenced she gets.


Like wingnwing and Dan we each have the "specialized" tasks we do the best. I never considered docking a brute force excercise, but more of the finesse kind so I usually I have the helm although Donna has taken here in over two dozen times. I take care of the anchoring with her at the helm....she picks up the moorings. We both cook...her breakfast...me dinners. We both work on the boat together in all the maintainence tasks.

Our vessels is very much a partnership. We both love the water and being outside. We both love the friends we have made and the destinations we have visited by water. She can chart navigate, but prefers to use the chartplotter and would rather follow the course I have set. We however take long passages where she has the helm for hours at a time and prefers to hand steer vs watching the autopilot. She likes feeling the power of the boat though the wind and water. She sets the sails...from the cockpit and whoever is not at the helm trims them. She does not like racing...she will do it, but never the less does not like the competitive part of it.

We are not equal in our expewrience or ability on the water, never the less we share in the boat. I have been very careful to let her learn from others as well as me and never have pushed her too quicklky into more and more challanging conditions she could not handle, although I have challenged her to handle more and more. With my wife it is about developing the condfidence in herself. She gets intimidated by what I may make it look easy...thats she does not find initially that way. We have fun on our boat and it is our escape and way to be together away from the stress of both of our jobs and the everyday daily tasks at home. It helps we are best friends and enjoy each others company

Experience will get her there and I am patient enough to know that that is the best way for it to take place and not push her into it. We argue as most couples do sometimes but no yelling is involved, and we both agree there can only be one captain on the boat at a time.

Eventually when we retire we will cruise down to the Carribean and south in the winters. She wants to do this also.

I count my lucky stars everyday, trust me.

Dave


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## Serendipitous (Nov 19, 2010)

> I've found communication frequently fails when one spouse is trying to train another. Sailing has its own language and if the order you bark out isn't instantly understood, errors happen. Errors take the fun out of sailing and can lead to raised voices. Raised voices kill all the fun.


I have to say that the above quote is very true. I don't show emotion too much but turned into a blubbering fool one day when my husband and I had some issues getting the spinnaker up and he started barking orders at me and getting frustrated because 'I should know what I'm doing by now'.

And although I'm still not fond of that day and will continue to shut down when a raised or stern voice is used at me, I could also see his point. We began sailing at the same time starting with zero experience, and two years later he was nearly an expert (beginner) while I couldn't have told you much more than if we were on a broad reach or a beam reach. The biggest issue was that even at that time we were planning on a trip down to the Caribbean the following year which has now turned into what may be a circumnavigation.

It is going to be _necessary_ for me to know what I'm doing once we get out there because my lack of knowledge could potentially harm or even kill us. I'm still learning and probably not close to where I should or need to be....but he's adamant and won't even let us leave on our journey until he's confident that I could handle the boat on my own.

Like many people have said, if you're doing mostly coastal cruising there's bound to be someone nearby that can help if you're in distress. But it wouldn't be bad for her to slowly work her way up to controlling the boat on her own. Just take baby steps. Oh yeah, and no yelling. 

Maybe you can have her check out the Annapolis Book of Seamanship DVD series. They've been very helpful to me as visual guides instead of just reading the information from a book.


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## PalmettoSailor (Mar 7, 2006)

Over the years, we've had a few dust ups when things didn't go as we wanted and I freely admit there have been times when I was far from cordial in addressing my mate on board. However, when things are going to hell in a handbasket and you're about to loose a finger in a winch or block, or smack the boat into something or someone else, you can't have a crew that looks at you like a deer in the headlights when you direct them to take action to help resolve the problem. Like others here, my wife works in a highly techcical field and has worked for several top companies, always being at the top of her training classes and quickly rising to national rank among her peers. We finally had a a come to Jesus meeting, when I pointed out she was clearly very inteligent and had as much sailing training as I, so it was clearly a lack of motivation that she still couldn't tell the mainsheet from the main halyard. I was so exaperated, I was ready to sell the boat if she didn't want to step up. Fortunatley she chose not to call my bluff (though I'm not sure I was bluffing at the time). After that things really started improving. 

At this point, I am confident she could get the boat back to port and dock it, if I were incapaciated, becasue she's been tested. Last year while beating into 20-25 knots with just the wife and I aboard, I foolishly went foreward barefoot on wet decks and you can guess what happened next. I busted my ass, landing hard on my elbow nearlying passing out from the sharp pain. If I hadn't ended up wedged in the shrouds I could easily have gone overboard as I would have been unable to arrest myself. Through all this, my wife kept her head, kept the boat under control, encouraged me not to fall overboard as I fought nausea from the pain and struggled to get untangled, then got the autopilot on and helped me back into the cockpit. She had to handle getting us the rest of the way home. It wasn't super elegant, but we were never in an unsafe situation or in risk of damaging the boat either. There is no way she'd have been able to do that prior to our discussion. These days she's working up to taking the boat out as Skipper with some of her experienced female sailor friends, which I think will be the tipping point for fully convincing her she knows what she needs to know to make safe decsions and manage the boat herself. 

As for MOB situation, we could both use some refresher training on that and I plan to do just that this spring, including practicing hoisting a victim aboard with the lifesling.


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## CaptainForce (Jan 1, 2006)

My spouse with paired X Chromosomes is quite capable of managing the sailing activities of our boat and is typically at the helm when docking, anchoring or mooring; while I, with a single X chromosome per cell, excel at shoving off pilings, reaching for mooring lines and cranking our manual windlass. This division of labor evolved due to our specific skills and is totally unrelated to how cute I think the appearance of her sweet little second X chromosome defines this helmsperson. Take care and joy, Aythya crew


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## bchaps (Mar 30, 2010)

From the OP

My wife is my Little lady...she stands five foot tall and weighs in slightly over 100 lbs. It isn't a derogatory term it is truth. Concerning the "Beauty Queen" comment...yep, two times during our high school romance.

Your claiming it's demeaning just ain't so when it is true. So, be a wee bit slower with the criticism unless you know what you speak.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Serendipitous said:


> I have to say that the above quote is very true. I don't show emotion too much but turned into a blubbering fool one day when my husband and I had some issues getting the spinnaker up and he started barking orders at me and getting frustrated because 'I should know what I'm doing by now'.
> 
> And although I'm still not fond of that day and will continue to shut down when a raised or stern voice is used at me, I could also see his point. We began sailing at the same time starting with zero experience, and two years later he was nearly an expert (beginner) while I couldn't have told you much more than if we were on a broad reach or a beam reach. The biggest issue was that even at that time we were planning on a trip down to the Caribbean the following year which has now turned into what may be a circumnavigation.
> 
> ...


I like you. You obviously know which end is up. You're obviously very intelligent and want to understand how everything works, and you're not content to be relegated to the role of "passenger" or _(shudder)_ "Admiral".

I only have one suggestion for you, and take it for what it's worth-

When someone (anyone) comes at you with a raised voice, don't "shut down". Stop for a second, think about why they're yelling. If you're wrong, try to correct what you're doing. If they're wrong, you should yell right back at them.

You're tough and smart, and there's no reason why you should be bullied into silence.


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## Serendipitous (Nov 19, 2010)

> When someone (anyone) comes at you with a raised voice, don't "shut down". Stop for a second, think about why they're yelling. If you're wrong, try to correct what you're doing. If they're wrong, you should yell right back at them.


Lol, thank you for that.  I rarely get yelled at or have a stern voice used at me (and that's pretty good considering my husband and I have been together 12 years), but the shutting down is something I've been cursed with since I was a child. I'll make sure to get better at a.) knowing what I'm doing so yelling isn't necessary in the first place and b.) yelling back when I know I'm right. 

Thanks for the support!!

Although I do also have to say that I think he felt so terrible for making me cry in the first place that he hasn't raised his voice at me (on the boat or at home) since then, and that was about 18 months ago.


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## Ajax_MD (Nov 24, 2009)

Serendipitous said:


> Lol, thank you for that.  I rarely get yelled at or have a stern voice used at me (and that's pretty good considering my husband and I have been together 12 years), but the shutting down is something I've been cursed with since I was a child. I'll make sure to get better at a.) knowing what I'm doing so yelling isn't necessary in the first place and b.) yelling back when I know I'm right.
> 
> Thanks for the support!!
> 
> Although I do also have to say that I think he felt so terrible for making me cry in the first place that he hasn't raised his voice at me (on the boat or at home) since then, and that was about 18 months ago.


I'm glad to hear that. It sounds like you two have a good relationship. You have a really nice boat, BTW.

I'm pretty blessed/lucky myself. I have a female sailing companion who didn't know squat about sailing. She has jumped right in and is working to learn everything so that we may share the burdens. I know that I don't need to raise my voice at her to get things done. As long as I remain calm, it keeps her confidence high, and she corrects herself much more quickly than if I start yelling. I enjoy sharing sailing with her.

Conversely, she is an expert on other things that interest me, so I also learn from her. It's a very mutually enriching relationship. I dig it.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

bchaps said:


> ..My wife is my Little lady...she stands five foot tall and weighs in slightly over 100 lbs. It isn't a derogatory term it is truth. Concerning the "Beauty Queen" comment...yep, two times during our high school romance.
> 
> Your claiming it's demeaning...


No, I claimed you objectified her and you were condescending.

I don't buy your claim that "my little lady" is supposed to be descriptive. Give me a break. My wife is petite, too, but if I referred to her as my little lady, she would likely punch me, or at least give me a look.

"[M]y" is possessive - it indicates ownership; "little" is a term of endearment that may connote condescension; "lady" implies that the person one is describing or addressing abides by, or is expected to abide by, certain rules of polite society - it can be used in a controlling or constraining fashion. When used in conjunction with descriptions of your superior sailing/mechanical ability, the combination indicates condescension. My "beauty queen" makes your wife sound like a prized doll or some other object, not like an equal partner.

I am not so sure you are really concerned about her well-being over your own. If you fall overboard or have the big one, I am sure she will be able to sail well enough to make it home to receive the insurance proceeds. You should worry more about yourself, especially if you feel her foot on your backside as you lean over the lifeline.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Politically correct speech is a real vortex. Should a spoken word offend someone if the one who spoke it had no idea how you would interpret it and did not intend it derogatorily?

All languages, as far as I know, have terms whose meanings are not literal, but are being debated if their literal meaning can be construed to oppose some other point.

We should all be respectful, but that concept requires a meeting of the minds and can't be dissected perfectly in the spoken word.

My wife, for example, finds all cute nicknames to be demeaning, including: honey, cutie, pumpkin, whatever. I could easily see myself referring to her as, honey, if I didn't own that. It certainly wouldn't be intended as demeaning and I maintain that it isn't. Nor would I receive being called, honey, to be demeaning. Nevertheless, there is a meeting of the minds on these spoken words regardless of their definitions and it should have NO impact on the rest of society and their choices. Trying to define a meeting of the minds for everyone simulataneously is impossible.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Minnewaska said:


> My wife, for example, finds all cute nicknames to be demeaning, including: honey, cutie, pumpkin, whatever.


I once dated a man who called me "troll" as a term of endearment.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

You dated _mikieg_?


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

jameswilson29 said:


> You dated _mikieg_?


*shudder*

Talk about _Look Who's Coming to Dinner_.


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## -OvO- (Dec 31, 2011)

I knew a guy who called his girlfriend "troll" as a term of endearment. The gf wasn't you, but it might've been the same guy, or his best friend. Truth be told, I thought he was kind of a jerk.


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> You dated _mikieg_?


I'm sorry. I know it's mean, but I find this very very funny. :laugher


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

wingNwing said:


> I'm sorry. I know it's mean, but I find this very very funny. :laugher


I can say with confidence that I've never dated a gun-toting Oklahoman.


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## CarbonSink62 (Sep 29, 2011)

I hope to nudge my wife gently toward some basic MOB boat handling this season:

1. Get the sails down.
2. Fire the engine up.
3. Turn the boat around.

If time permits, we'll tackle the 'oh so tricky':

4. Don't run me over.

She has little interest and if she only went out with me twice a year I would treat her as a 'guest'; if she's going to be out more often, I think she should know the above basics.

We'll start in the bay on a calm day and see how it goes.

I'll make sure my will and other documents are up to date!

Ken


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

CarbonSink62 said:


> I hope to nudge my wife gently toward some basic MOB boat handling this season:
> 
> 1. Get the sails down.
> 2. Fire the engine up.
> ...


Why not do it under sail? It is way faster and easier. You might start by teaching Anderson and Williamson turns under power, then progress to MOBs under sail.


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## Serendipitous (Nov 19, 2010)

> You have a really nice boat, BTW.


Thanks. If you check the link on my sig to our website you can see all of the projects we've done to her to get her ready for cruising. I swear, we put more money out toward that boat each month than we're taking in. And that's even living at his mom's house to save more $ for the kitty.


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## Chkm8 (May 6, 2009)

Those who Have sailing partners are so Lucky and time makes us all long term students


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## wingNwing (Apr 28, 2008)

*My last thought about the words we use*

Okay, it's the internet, and all we have to communicate our message is words. No body language or tone, and no opportunity to observe how your message is being received and adapt or modify accordingly. So the words are particularly important.

Minne is right - it's a vortex. So, someone refers to me in a way I find insulting. Being an assertive kind of person, I say, "Wow, did you mean that that way? I don't like being referred to as a ___, that's pretty condescending." The other person responds one of 3 basic ways. (a) "No offense intended." (b) "No offense intended, and I'll try to remember in the future not to use that term. At the same time, understand that not everyone is as sensitive to that term as you are." (c) "No offense intended, and furthermore, you have no right to feel offended, its just a word and I'll continue to exercise my right to use it."

What two people call each other is just between them. But in a conversation if one objects, then I think regardless of the word, innocent or blatant or anything in between, if the context is (c) you're going to get a reaction. :hothead


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## CarbonSink62 (Sep 29, 2011)

jackdale said:


> Why not do it under sail?


I think she'd be more comfortable piloting the boat under power.

Before we had a boat with a roller furled jib she was my foredeck crew, so she's a really good sport about the whole thing. I want to make sure it continues to be fun for her.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

*Airing your dirty laundry...*

I find it comical that some folks choose to air their dirty laundry concerning their marriage on a public forum, then get upset when the stains are pointed out to them. Furthermore, there are some members here who seem to believe a mixed sailing/marriage post can only be answered strictly with a sailing response (always with the same response - get lessons).

Obviously, some of these posters with marital conflict simply want validation, approval, reaffirmation, encouragement and support for their position at their spouse's expense.

Sorry, you came to the wrong place - try a small group at church, your best friend, or a nonjudgmental counsellor. Here, you will get the truth served cold, along with the usual warm and fuzzy B.S. from the feel-good crowd.

If you choose to air your private marital disputes/conflicts in public, you should expect to read a variety of responses, including those that do not agree with or support your view of the world and your marriage. If you do not like it, stop sharing your private matters on a public forum.


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## MattSplatt (Dec 10, 2010)

It is conceivable for spouses to have pet names for each other which they both actually LIKE, isn't it?

The OP wasn't calling any of *us* his Little Lady, so why get all wound up about it?

('Hi!', BTW. My first post is this. *sigh*. I truly don't know what moved me to open in this manner)


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

MattSplatt said:


> It is conceivable for spouses to have pet names for each other which they both actually LIKE, isn't it?


Absolutely.



MattSplatt said:


> ('Hi!', BTW. My first post is this. *sigh*. I truly don't know what moved me to open in this manner)


Welcome! You must like the feel of flames under your feet.


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

jameswilson29 said:


> I find it comical that some folks choose to air their dirty laundry concerning their marriage on a public forum, then get upset when the stains are pointed out to them. Furthermore, there are some members here who seem to believe a mixed sailing/marriage post can only be answered strictly with a sailing response (always with the same response - get lessons).
> 
> Obviously, some of these posters with marital conflict simply want validation, approval, reaffirmation, encouragement and support for their position at their spouse's expense.
> 
> ...


How do we get from "My sailing partner (who happens to be my spouse) has different levels of skill/interest in sailing than I do, and I am concerned that this could be a safety concern." to "I am a neanderthalic mysogynist/misandrist who has no respect for my spouse. My relationship is in shambles and I deeply desire that some anonymous, amateur, cyber psychologist intervenes and makes my life better." ?

The OP didn't ask for marital or relationship advice, they asked for opinions regarding the disparity between sailing abilities amongst couples that sail together. This is why they should expect a response that is sailing-related.

In my opinion it is far more responsible to suggest that those with a sailing question for which we may not have an answer should pursue professional sailing training by qualified trainers.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

At face value, the post concerned the fact that Ms. Kitty was not living up to the Southern Gentleman's expectation of a sailing spouse. The problem: she lacked desire to sail well enough to save herself should he die or become disabled. Obviously, you cannot make someone have desire, so the only reasonable answer is acceptance.

Beneath the surface of the post, there was something else going on. Although the Southern Gentleman paid lip service to Ms. Kitty's competency and abilities, in fact he displayed chauvinism and possessiveness toward her. Her refusal to learn rudimentary sailing when they are, in fact, sailing offshore, may be some act of rebellion against his dominance on the boat. We will never know unless she honestly reveals herself on this forum.


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## MattSplatt (Dec 10, 2010)

Thank you.


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

i think a much more interesting topic would have been.....could she sell the boat? now that would have brought out the big guns!


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## flyingwelshman (Aug 5, 2007)

jameswilson29 said:


> Beneath the surface of the post, there was something else going on.


I'm sure you are right, although, what lies beneath may not be as nefarious as you suggest.

Without full disclosure and open discussion from the parties in question, we can only speculate as to the nature of their relationship.

I choose to do this speculation in the privacy of my own mind.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I'm fairly confident that at this stage of life my loving wife of a half-century could NOT handle the boat by herself if something happened to me. Five years ago I fell through the hatch on my 27 Catalina. I dropped nearly 7 feet to the cabin sole, hit the edge of the bunk, fractured two ribs and nearly blacked out from the pain. My wife was with me, the engine was running at the time of the accident, and despite the fact that I repeatedly showed her how to do everything on the boat, including starting, shifting and running the engine, all of this seemed to go right out of her memory when she saw me fall. After regaining some of my faculties I climbed out of the cabin, lowered the sails and motored us back to the marina. After tying up the boat, she drove me to the hospital emergency room, where we waited nearly four hours before being seen by a doctor and getting X-rays. I was fortunate in that the ribs were only fractured, and the following week we were back out sailing the Chesapeake's upper reaches. She admittedly panicked and since then we've discovered that she has several other phobias related to sailing after a four day trip this past summer.

Gary


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## denverd0n (Jun 20, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> I don't buy your claim that "my little lady" is supposed to be descriptive. Give me a break. My wife is petite, too, but if I referred to her as my little lady, she would likely punch me, or at least give me a look.


Interesting. So you imagine that everyone else's relationship with their wife is just the same as yours. Why do you think you feel that way? And just how often DOES your wife punch you?

(By the way, this is a sailing forum, so I would normally stick to sailing topics, but since you decided to air your marital issues in public...)


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

denverd0n said:


> Interesting. So you imagine that everyone else's relationship with their wife is just the same as yours. Why do you think you feel that way? And just how often DOES your wife punch you?
> 
> (By the way, this is a sailing forum, so I would normally stick to sailing topics, but since you decided to air your marital issues in public...)


The one difference is I did not start a thread asking for advice (yours or anyone's).

I talk to many, many people regularly about their marital relationship so I know for a fact everyone's relationship is unique.

The interesting thing about folks who are socially clueless is that their role in the marriage is always that of the subordinate/submissive partner. The more clever partner who better understands human relations can more easily manipulate his or her spouse, even letting that spouse appear to be the dominant partner.

Et tu?


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

jameswilson29 said:


> The interesting thing about folks who are socially clueless is that their role in the marriage is always that of the subordinate/submissive partner. The more clever partner who better understands human relations can more easily manipulate his or her spouse, even letting that spouse appear to be the dominant partner.
> 
> Et tu?


uke Oh My Gawd! James! I'm seeing it but don't believe its on the screen! I must admit, as much as it sickens me and how it really gets my equality and feminism feelings all in a knot.. I have to admit it's what I see in so many couples. Gawd, just watching couples walking around the Home center is a show and tell of said dynamic! "OK dear" as she falls in step behind him? uke doesn't anyone walk side by side anymore? But then, I look at the world only through my eyes of course. Who's manipulating who is always in question is such role play to the casual observer.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

travlineasy said:


> My wife was with me, the engine was running at the time of the accident, and despite the fact that I repeatedly showed her how to do everything on the boat, including starting, shifting and running the engine, all of this seemed to go right out of her memory when she saw me fall.


Gary - did your wife *practise* any of this?


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

jameswilson29 said:


> The interesting thing about folks who are socially clueless is that their role in the marriage is always that of the subordinate/submissive partner. The more clever partner who better understands human relations can more easily manipulate his or her spouse, even letting that spouse appear to be the dominant partner.
> 
> Et tu?


I thought this was common knowlage...

(or wait..we're supposed to keep this a secret...*SHHHH*..nevermind)


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

does being married mean being conjoined at the hip? does being married mean having someone who always agrees?does being married mean always having someone who can also sail the boat?,i think "being married" means many things to different people,if being married takes away one right to also being an individual,the price is way too high


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

sawingknots said:


> does being married mean being conjoined at the hip? ...if being married takes away one right to also being an individual,the price is way too high


+ Cadrillion


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

DRFerron said:


> + Cadrillion


?,what does that mean


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## CarbonSink62 (Sep 29, 2011)

I think you won some internet points.


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

sawingknots said:


> ?,what does that mean


I thought +1 wasn't nearly enough to show my agreement. Trillion is so passe these days so I came up with my own number. I'll sell the rights to use it to the gov't when the national debt gets that bad.


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## sawingknots (Feb 24, 2005)

got you!thanks,i get confused at anything over 100 or one dump truck load


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

jackdale said:


> Gary - did your wife *practise* any of this?


Sorry I didn't get back to this sooner, but I just got home from a music job. Yes, we practiced everything, other than me falling through the hatch, many, many times. She does just fine under ideal conditions, but conditions were obviously not ideal. When you watch the old codger you've been married to for a half-century plunge through an open hatch and slam to the deck below, the first thing that probably ran through her mind was "If the old fart killed himself, how will I get home, and where is the life insurance policies?) 

I guess she just panicked, which after all these years of being married to me, that's very understandable. I hope she'll be spending lots of time on the Morgan this summer, but her deteriorating physical condition may preclude that. I told her that if she doesn't go sailing this summer I could end up with a couple of French Toast makers. She said if I did that there's a good chance she'll be collecting on that life insurance policy. 

Cheers,

Gary


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

I have always worried about falling down through an open hatch.

What do you do differently now to avoid that?


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> I have always worried about falling down through an open hatch.
> 
> What do you do differently now to avoid that?


Close it?

All hatches and ports are closed underway.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

Yep--that's what I should have done, and ALWAYS do now. That hatch is closed anytime I'm not going below. Sometimes I forget to open it before coming up the ladder--OUCH! I have the scars to prove how much that hurts.

Cheers,

Gary


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

travlineasy said:


> Yep--that's what I should have done, and ALWAYS do now. That hatch is closed anytime I'm not going below. Sometimes I forget to open it before coming up the ladder--OUCH! I have the scars to prove how much that hurts.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


I will leave the companionway hatch open IF there is a dodger.

What I hate is hitting the closed hatch while wearing a ball cap, that little button on the top can really hurt and draw blood. Of course, the peak prevents you from noticing the hatch is closed.


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## MattSplatt (Dec 10, 2010)

James, you are a divorce lawyer, yes?
So do you mostly see successful marriages or failed ones? Just saying. ;-)


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## MattSplatt (Dec 10, 2010)

..and it's okay. I punched myself already. :-D


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

*Pressure cooker!*

Sailing is supposed to be fun and relaxing, a recreational activity that allows one to escape the daily grind!

But it also involves command and control of a small space, with some risk of injury or damage to property.

Every couple applying for a marriage license should be encouraged to spend a week together aboard a small sailboat on a voyage. If you can live together happily on a small sailboat, you can live together happily in a much larger house.

People stupidly get married for the wrong reasons (romance, passion, infatuation), and forget about some of the simple ones: being respectful, good roommates to each other, supporting each other, and helping each other through life.

IMHO, a couple who are having basic problems functioning together as a team or partners on a sailboat are most likely having control and domination issues. All the sailing lessons in the world will not solve those kind of unresolved problems. In addition, a marriage must have some serious problems if one of the partners decides to disregard the implied covenant of confidentiality and privacy to expose that kind of marital conflict (not a sailing problem) on a public forum for input by strangers. Have you noticed we never hear from the other spouse? Most of these folks need marriage counseling.


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## MattSplatt (Dec 10, 2010)

Hi James,
I thought you were being a bit heavy-handed earlier, and reading a little too much into the names partners have for each other.

This most recent post is far more reasonable. 

The differences between 'sailing partner' and 'sailing partner who happens to also be my spouse' do run deep. It's true.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

I don't recall the OP ever mentioning problems in his marriage. Go re-read the first post. Sounds like a divorce lawyer hijacking a thread for his own means. This thread has become a platform for a divorce lawyer to be permitted to make personal attacks based on his assumptions and then preach about marital problems and counselling. I thought this was called "ambulance chasing" in the US?

Everybody knows it is difficult to live in a small space, and/or travel, with a partner so lets disregard that hijack. bchaps didn't mention anything about his marriage, nor ask for advice in it. This is a sailing forum and he asked five simple questions.


> Am I asking too much?
> should I just drop to my knees and thank the Good Lord she is willing to sail with me and help in all the ways she does?
> should I be concerned for her well being if "the big one" nails me?
> What do you do?
> Can your First Mate sail/dock the boat?


My answers would be
No; Yes; Somewhat (after all is said and done, you are responsible for yourself and her well-being, she is responsible for herself and your well-being) As long as you do your best to help her help herself, the rest is her decision; I try to find someway of helping her enjoy sailing so that she will choose to motivate herself to learn; No.

I think the above questions are not gender specific if it's the women (or girl) that has decided sailing is her thing. Also, it would be amazing to hear from the other side of the coin, if you really didn't like to sail and your partner encouraged you to get involved do you think that was asking too much? Should they have just been glad you are out there? Do you expect them to be concerned for your well-being? How did they handle the situation? And are you presently able to sail and dock the boat by yourself?



jameswilson29 said:


> Have you noticed we never hear from the other spouse? Most of these folks need marriage counseling.


 Once again, this is just trolling with rubbish and rhetoric. The assertion is flawed in many ways and can be explained by realising a spouse who is not interested in sailing (and in my case, not interested in technology) will not choose to spend time on a sailing forum on the Internet. I haven't read any posts from James' wife. I suspect the majority of attached sailnetters only have one spouse on here.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

JordanH said:


> Once again, this is just trolling with rubbish and rhetoric. The assertion is flawed in many ways and can be explained by realising a spouse who is not interested in sailing (and in my case, not interested in technology) will not choose to spend time on a sailing forum on the Internet. I haven't read any posts from James' wife. I suspect the majority of attached sailnetters only have one spouse on here.


Still sore about the "girls" remark (you spent a lot of effort defending yourself, which reveals how seriously you took it)?

It is difficult for me to relate to your point because I would never expose private matters like marital relations on a public forum, so I can't imagine how someone who has violated such a basic trust issue would convince his or her spouse to jump in and participate, as useful as it might be.

Some of the screen names appear to be joint/couple names, i.e. chrisncate, so it is possible a disaffected spouse might jump in on one of these discussions.

Perhaps you have some experience in this area you would like to share?


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

jameswilson29 said:


> Still sore about the "girls" remark (you spent a lot of effort defending yourself, which reveals how seriously you took it)?


Sore? No. Although I am annoyed that I responded to your trolling remarks; If I had scanned through your other threads/posts before hand, I would have written off your comment without a second thought - shame on me. My last woman/girl comment is tongue in cheek. But, since you don't know me I can see how you could jump to another false conclusion.



jameswilson29 said:


> It is difficult for me to relate to your point because I would never expose private matters like marital relations on a public forum,


Once again, this isn't an issue of marital relations. You're still looking at this with your work hat on. Replace it with a sailor's cap and you might get it. The OP has come to seek advice from a group of people that have likely faced the same issue. "Hey, I have < insert problem >, maybe you guys have a better solution?" It's why the forums are here. The process works as long as threads don't get hijacked.

If you don't have constructive input but are interested in the thread then lurking is a good option. If you aren't answering the questions or providing helpful feedback then the thread delves down into useless posts like this one and the question and answers are lost; Future sailors will inevitably find this thread and have to scan through pages of this rubbish before they find an answer. I've asked this a number of times, so here's another request: Please get this thread back on track.

If you are unable to relate to or help with the OP's original questions, perhaps you can contribute by suggesting new and better ways. Have you ever successfully (happily) taught your wife or close partner a new skill? If so, how did you do it?



jameswilson29 said:


> Some of the screen names appear to be joint/couple names, i.e. chrisncate, so it is possible a disaffected spouse might jump in on one of these discussions.


There are definitely a few examples; But it's not a majority and not a valid argument or sufficient cause for asserting that the rest need marriage counselling.



> Perhaps you have some experience in this area you would like to share?


 If by "this area" you mean, in an area that is not related to the thread, then feel free to start a new thread or PM me and ask me your questions directly.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

JordanH said:


> Sore? No. Although I am annoyed that I responded to your trolling remarks; If I had scanned through your other threads/posts before hand...
> 
> It's why the forums are here. The process works as long as threads don't get hijacked.
> 
> ...


Wow, Jordan, I did not realize you were a moderator, telling members how they should participate on the forum, according to your limited view of it.

You sound like the socially clueless spouse I referred to earlier in the thread. In fact, not every marital sailing thread reveals a marital conflict, but this one and the one by Wifey do. I am not going to spend the time to explain to you, word by word, and line by line, how they are different, but if you study the language and think about what must be communicated in order to post the thread, in other words - read between the lines, you may be able to figure it out.


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

jackdale said:


> What I hate is hitting the closed hatch while wearing a ball cap, that little button on the top can really hurt and draw blood. Of course, the peak prevents you from noticing the hatch is closed.


I *hate* that. Although, we don't have a hatch on which to leave open/closed, I have hit my head many times because of ball caps in the same way. One way to avoid it is to give up the ball cap in favour of a dorky Tilley hat. Outside of the better sun protection, they also have a foam top which cushions the blow on those hatch/head meetings!


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## sailorswife (Mar 5, 2012)

Relationships!

Wow - now I am really glad I read through all the posts. On reading the initial post I thought, Yes this is me - a sailing wife who sails to be with her husband but no desire really to learn to sail. And this realisation has materialised after 17 years of trying to sail but really not "getting it" and subsequently after all the shouting etc the realisation that you really actually don't want to sail anymore but unfortunately circumstances will dictate otherwise. 

But then Jameswilson29 comes on and talks about not airing maritial problems on a public website. He is right but what if you have absolutely no one to talk to as you are cruising with said partner who is causing you distress and as it is the sailing or your non-active participation which is causing the problem and you need to talk to someone who sails but you know no-one close enough to email who will know exactly what you are talking about then a website with fellow sailors who may have found themselves in the same situation is where you will look for help. I realise that submitting your problems on the site will open you up to possible ridicule, cold hard advice that you may not like but maybe, maybe there might be that one person who knows exactly where you are coming from and may be able to give a little support - to say that they can empathise and maybe be able to give a little advice on what to do then I think it is worth it.

I think it is really all about feeling that you are not the only one in the world with this problem. Knowing that other people have gone through the same issues and survived helps. Someone also mentioned that the website should only be about sailing but surely sailing is about your relationship with your boat and your crew which in a lot of cases is your spouse - why should only the relationship with the boat be the one talked about?


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## Squidd (Sep 26, 2011)

Rule #1..never talk about Fight Club...


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

sailorswife said:


> Relationships!
> 
> ...
> I think it is really all about feeling that you are not the only one in the world with this problem. Knowing that other people have gone through the same issues and survived helps. Someone also mentioned that the website should only be about sailing but surely sailing is about your relationship with your boat and your crew which in a lot of cases is your spouse - why should only the relationship with the boat be the one talked about?


Brava!

Welcome to Sailnet, sailorswife. I hope you stick around long enough to get to know us (and feel comfortable enough to tell us your name). Perhaps you can even teach some of these hardened guys a thing or to or at least give them something to think about to make them pause the next time they open their mouths to yell.

Since you said that you read through this entire thread, you are indeed a brave soul for posting anyway. I am not in your position on our boat and I suspect the women who are and read this thread will probably not contribute but sometimes it only takes one pebble to start the avalanche.

Be that as it may, Sailnet has as members some strong women sailors who are willing to help their sister sailors, whence the reason for the HerSailNet forum was started even if the men do lurk in the shadows before jumping out at the unsuspecting (and contribute here more than the women). Just don't forget that we're here and we're out _there_. We don't always entirely agree with each other, but we have no problem disagreeing in a respectful manner that I hope certain men take note of. 

Three that come to mind who I know have reached out to sailors on the water and have provided me with a lion's share of inspiration are wingnwing, melrna and Denise. I hope to be them when I grow up.

So welcome and I hope you stick around. When you get the required number of posts feel free to PM me if you have sailing questions or concerns or fears you want to air and don't feel comfortable bringing up before the peanut gallery. If I don't know the answer, I'll know who to ask.


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## johnnyquest37 (Feb 16, 2012)

What an interesting thread. Of course, our marriages tend to generate much emotion. Add sailing in what can at times be stressful conditions (even when nothing is going wrong), and our marriages can really start to generate emotion.

The original question was posed about by the husband essentialy asking how can he encourage his wife to become more proficient. It is a valid question since they have to rely upon each other as crewmates.

I am a sailing instructor and have taught several couples and I formally instructed my own wife (ASA 101 and 103). In general, I think it is a bad idea for a husband to instruct his wife, but in my case it went pretty well. It is also sometimes a bad idea for husbands and wives to take sailing courses together, especially if there is a wide disparity in their interest level. When one spouse is going along with the training to appease the other spouse, tension can develop when things start to get stressful. Anyone who has sailed with their spouse knows what I am talking about. This tension can be magnified during formal instruction. My recommednation in this case is for the husband to suggest that the wife take a course without him being present.

But, if she is not interested in taking a course or becoming at all proficient, then what? Personally, I think he needs to discuss with her his fears and his expectations. Perhaps they can come to an agreement as to what level of proficiency she should strive for. At a minimum, she should be able to drop the sails, engage the engine, and broadcast/call for help. This is not for the husband's sake - if he goes overboard he is lost. This is for her sake so that she has a chance to survive if she finds herself alone on the boat. The more proficient she can become, the better for him and the better for her. I'd not worry about docking and anchoring so much - yes these are important skills, but if she is suddenly alone on the boat, a poor job of docking is the least of her worries.

One respondant posted about his experience falling through a hatch and his wife having to take over. The only accident/injury I've ever experienced at sea was very similar. I fell through a hatch after messing with the mainsail. My wife and I were sailing over a long weekend with another couple (non-sailors) aboard. I was hurt pretty badly, but thankfully there were no broken bones. My wife was completely able to control the boat for the rest of the day both under sail and later on the engine. With the help of our friends, she was more than able to dock the boat. Her ability to handle the boat was the difference between being embarrassed and being in trouble.

Now, as much as marriage and sailing can generate emotion, that is nothing compared to JordanH's inflammatory remark:



JordanH said:


> I *hate* that. Although, we don't have a hatch on which to leave open/closed, I have hit my head many times because of ball caps in the same way. One way to avoid it is to give up the ball cap in favour of a dorky Tilley hat. Outside of the better sun protection, they also have a foam top which cushions the blow on those hatch/head meetings!


"Dorky" Tilly hat - tread lightly friend. Them's fighting words!


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## JordanH (Dec 13, 2008)

johnnyquest37 said:


> Now, as much as marriage and sailing can generate emotion, that is nothing compared to JordanH's inflammatory remark:
> 
> "Dorky" Tilly hat - tread lightly friend. Them's fighting words!


:laugher

Mine has been around the world - Italy, Asia, Caribbean and sailed around the Great Lakes. The first hat ever sold was to someone in my yacht club... I believe Alex was a member, although I don't see his name in the book at present.

But lets call a spade a spade. You aren't going to be seeing those wonderful (dorky) hats on the cover of People, Rolling Stone, or any fashion magazine.


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## MarioG (Sep 6, 2009)

I'm very lucky, from the start my 1st mate was a natural. She seems to have a feel for it, even when we were just starting you would have thought she had been sailing for years, she could read the wind on the water and trim the sails accordingly. She might not have know all the terms but from the start she has been able to sail any of our 3 boats with little to no help from me. The only arguements are for time at the helm.


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## jameswilson29 (Aug 15, 2009)

johnnyquest37 said:


> Now, as much as marriage and sailing can generate emotion, that is nothing compared to JordanH's inflammatory remark:
> 
> "Dorky" Tilly hat - tread lightly friend. Them's fighting words!


I suppose the wearing of a Tilly hat could constitute cruelty sufficient to be grounds for divorce, assuming:

1. the blatant dorkiness is intentional and not genetically based;
2. the victimized spouse had no idea her intended was so afflicted with dorkiness to rise to the level of wearing a Tilly hat (Relevant questions: Did your intended ever wear a plaid sports coat before you were married? Listen to Abba or Barry Manilow? Cry during a karoake rendition of "Feelings"?)


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

ENOUGH Tilley-bashing!

I love my Tilley hat! It even gives me money. Although I'm sure a more logical explanation is that I put the $20 in the secret compartment and then just forgot about it.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

For head banging you can't beat a Cowichan wool toque.Classy too on 202 cm.


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## travlin-easy (Dec 24, 2010)

I think I've banged the hatch with every kind of hat made. The best, at least the hat that provided the most protection, was a stetson--Lots of room between the top of the hat and your head. 

Cheers,

Gary


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## sailorswife (Mar 5, 2012)

Thank you for your kind words Donna (DRFerron) they cheered me up. Not sure whether I will be a sailor for life (am 99% sure I won't) but at least I can try to make the best of the foreseeable sailing future.


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