# When Do You Reef?



## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Would be interested to know at what wind speed do you reef your main and jib? Please provide boat type and length. 

For myself I normally put in a reef at 20 knots as the wind will be gusting to 25 knots and I sail somewhat conservatively. Boat S&S 34.


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## blowinstink (Sep 3, 2007)

Cape Dory 330 likes to reef @ 15 2nd at 22 or so. It can handle more but sails best when reefed early.


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## Jim_W (Jul 27, 2014)

I reef about 20 also depends a little on what point of sail but usually 18 to 20 kn. i usually reel in the genoa first and then the main if i need less sail. I am in a C & C 25 MK1 sometimes I reef earlier if the little woman is getting sprayed (happy wife =happy captain we are usually just sailing around without a destination.


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## jsaronson (Dec 13, 2011)

C&C 35 Mk III
Upwind 18-20 apparent 1 reef. 25 apparent Furl jib to about 100%.

Also depends on sea state, whether racing and who is onboard.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

Hallberg-Rassy 40. I reef on the helm, not wind speed. Wind speed varies with aspect angle but the helm angle doesn't.

With a 100% jib on the furler I reef the main every time I get weather helm consistently above 10 degrees. After the third reef in the main I furl the jib entirely and fly my staysail.

With a 135% on the furler I roll up the genoa to about 90% first and then start tucking in the main. Again, the threshold is 10 degrees of weather helm.

When things get really sporty I drop the main entirely and wrap the reefing line tails _hard_ around the sail to reduce windage and sail on the staysail.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

I need to reef because of weather helm at around 15 knots with my 100% jib but try to reef well before that. With the 160 Genny it's more like 10 knots. Singlehanded, I need to be very conservative because I don't have everything back to the cockpit. With someone at the helm I would wait a bit longer. The gymnastics needed to get up at the mast and wrap up the sail if the wind is blowing hard is definitely *not* worth waiting too long.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Upwind at 17 knots if its going higher. or when the AP has more than 10 degrees rudder.
2nd reef at 25.

I don't believe in silly rules like "if you think about reefing you should have". I think I am always looking at the weather and always its in my mind.

Mine is a light boat.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

8.5M (28') S2. Two answers: I reef when logic tells me to, ie. when she is overpowered and I can tell it. I reef when I am worried. 2nd reason applies more often. 
I find that if I am worried about lack of control, a few minutes with too little sail won't hurt anything and when I get more confidence I can put up full sail. However, having roller furling jib helps a lot in this regard as if I think it is too much wind or not comfy, I unfurl less jib but full main. If this doesn't help I go to reef. If it seems ok, i go to full jib.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

I reef pretty much by feel and experience (Bristol 45.5, about 40,000 lbs but with a generous sail plan). The older I get the earlier I reef, probably because the boat is old too and I can't see any point in putting undue stress on anything. It also depends on the type of sailing. Most of what I do is long distances (a few to many days) and discretion makes sense. I have also noticed that there is little if any difference in speed and the boat just feels more comfortable. 

i reef the main (furling so I can control the amount of sail area fairly precisely) first and quite a bit before furling the 135%. This reduces any weather helm and makes life much easier for Morley the Monitor. If Morley is happy, I'm happy.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

In 24 reef main about 15 and douse jib (only have a 135 now) at a out 20 then set my home designed "cutter" jib it uses the topping lift as the halyard its self tacking at about 30 I take the second reef.


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## Frogwatch (Jan 22, 2011)

I have reefed when my crew thought I shouldnt and I think I am correct. Going from Green Turtle to marsh harbor, I went below and took a nap while crew sailed. About an hour later, looked out and noticed we were really moving dead downwind. Glance at the GPS, WTF, 8 kts? Not possible for a 28' boat but then I look at anemometer and it reads 28 kts from dead astern. HOLY CRAP, REEF NOW. Fortunately we were under only main, Sea of Abaco choppy but not much height because wind was blocked by land. I knew that if we accidently jibed, it wouldnt be pretty and that although my rigging is relatively new, the boat is old, so time to reef. Crew was having a ball and didnt want to reef but I insisted and we muscled the main down to the 1st reef and then down all the way when I realized that the anemometer was reading from only 10' above deck (on a pole on stern) and that I needed to add boats forward spd to the wind spd and then we sailed under partial jib. We finally settled into only 6.5 kts in a clear blue sky with 30+ kts wind.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

Since I re-started racing, we reef a little less frequently than about 10 years ago. Not because we're harder-core, but because we know more now.

As other have written, we reef when there is too much weather helm. But how much is too much? Over several years we developed an empirical measure used by many in the fleet that is all based on angle of heel. To elaborate, our boat likes no more than 24 degrees of heel (as identified by the manufacturer). After that, the boat slows dramatically and weather helm increases. So when the heel gets above 22 degrees, we start thinking about what can be done:

1. ease traveler
2. ease sheet to open the main top
3. move genoa car aft to open the genoa top

When these don't work, then it's time to reef. So there is no set answer.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

I have learned that reefing the first time I think about it works for me. If the boat starts to feel pressed or and this is the most likely one for me to say "that was a good decision" when I see something upwind that concerns me. 

I would rather put 10 in unnecessarily than 1 in the middle of a 40 knot squall with horizontal rain.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

SVAuspicious said:


> When things get really sporty I drop the main entirely and wrap the reefing line tails _hard_ around the sail to reduce windage and sail on the staysail.


\

Can you sail up wind with just the staysail? I find with just a jib (and say a 5 foot swell) I can only sail effectively at about 90 degrees to the wind. I really need some main up, even a well reefed main to make head way in a stong wind.


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## Westsailforever (Jul 9, 2014)

Because I'm cutter rigged I need to reef early 15-18 . Main first then stay sail then Yankee .It took me awhile to get that straight . As my first boat(O'Day 23) did not mind at all if I just furled the Jenny .


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

casey1999 said:


> Can you sail up wind with just the staysail? I find with just a jib (and say a 5 foot swell) I can only sail effectively at about 90 degrees to the wind. I really need some main up, even a well reefed main to make head way in a stong wind.


Yes. I have a removable inner forestay and can point much better with staysail alone on that than a partially furled jib on the forestay. It's better yet with some main up but weather helm increases significantly on my boat if heel angle gets too high.

Just for reference, I was in the English Channel once in a storm and handed off to the relief watch with guidance that "France is over there. Don't hit it. England is over there. Don't hit it either." We can make reasonable ground to windward hauling in the backstay and using the running backs with just the staysail. Sometimes not hitting anything is good enough.


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## Alex W (Nov 1, 2012)

There are too many variables to tie this down to a single number.

I put on my working jib (200sqft compared to my genoa's 300sqft) if wind speeds are currently much over 10 knots and forecast to stay there.

I reef the main when close reach speeds give me an apparent wind speed of around 20 knots, or when the rail is getting wet. If I'll be spending all day downwind then it would take a higher wind speed to get me to reef.

My new main has a second deep reef (about 40% up the luff), but I've never used it.

I rarely get to sail in winds over 25 knots (true, so 30+ knots apparent), so I don't have a prescribed approach for handling them.


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## Uricanejack (Nov 17, 2012)

jsaronson said:


> C&C 35 Mk III
> Upwind 18-20 apparent 1 reef. 25 apparent Furl jib to about 100%.
> 
> Also depends on sea state, whether racing and who is onboard.


C&C 35
About the same. I tend to reef first. I point better with 1 reef than with a furled jib


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Oh, and boat speed. As soon as it hits hull speed I reef.
My hull speed is meant to be 7.96 knots so faster than that I am either surfing or adding pressure somewhere to something.

So at 8 I slow down


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Many down here seem to keep a reef tucked in the main most of the time. When we set sail to cross a channel on a normal trade wind day, the main is usually reefed to the upper spreaders (see pic above). Rarely is that insufficient, but at times it is too much, and it's easy enough to put up a bit more sail, by unreefing the main a bit, or putting up the mizzen or staysail.
We are fortunate that this boat will sail very close to the wind and maintain a good speed, under Yankee alone, so a lot of times when the wind is 25+ we'll just sail under that sail, alone.
I have heard it said often enough though, "If you are thinking about reefing, then you probably should already have done it."


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## RichH (Jul 10, 2000)

SVAuspicious said:


> Hallberg-Rassy 40. I reef on the helm, not wind speed. Wind speed varies with aspect angle but the helm angle doesn't.
> 
> With a 100% jib on the furler I reef the main every time I get weather helm consistently above 10 degrees. After the third reef in the main I furl the jib entirely and fly my staysail.
> 
> ...


Yup I agree, about 10° of helm or when I can see that much of a rudder turbulence angle coming off the stern and showing the boat is skidding off to leewards ... its time to reef down a bit. 
My boat is a cutter rig with the mast at nearly 50% LOA (not LOD) ... I reef 'back to front' as the combined CE is in the staysail.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

SVAuspicious said:


> Yes. I have a removable inner forestay and can point much better with staysail alone on that than a partially furled jib on the forestay. It's better yet with some main up but weather helm increases significantly on my boat if heel angle gets too high.
> 
> Just for reference, I was in the English Channel once in a storm and handed off to the relief watch with guidance that "France is over there. Don't hit it. England is over there. Don't hit it either." We can make reasonable ground to windward hauling in the backstay and using the running backs with just the staysail. Sometimes not hitting anything is good enough.


Do you use the main if you have the runners engaged? Last year I installed an inner forestay with running backs to be used with the loose-footed trys'l and storm jib. I'd be afraid to chance using the main with those runners in place. A mistake/jibe could bring down the works if the boom slammed into the runners, especially in the heavy winds you'd be dealing with at the time.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Alex W said:


> There are too many variables to tie this down to a single number.


Exactly... Discussions of this sort are primarily of 'academic' interest, is seems... 

I think Auspicious and killarney have it right... I generally reef when I _FEEL_ like doing so. Sea state will often have more to do with it than wind speed, and so many other considerations such as whether it's day or night, how hard-pressed I might be to make a destination or how tired I might be, and certainly whether I'm sailing offshore, or a more protected body of water... In a boat as small as mine, beating to weather offshore, sometimes when it's time to start thinking about reefing, you're often pretty close to the point where it might also be time to consider heaving-to for a bit... 

Finally, what time of the year are we talking about? Most folks haven't a clue, how much _'heavier'_ 18 knots of air on Albemarle Sound might be in January, than it is in July...


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Exactly... Discussions of this sort are primarily of 'academic' interest, is seems...
> 
> I think Auspicious and killarney have it right... I generally reef when I _FEEL_ like doing so. Sea state will often have more to do with it than wind speed, and so many other considerations such as whether it's day or night, how hard-pressed I might be to make a destination or how tired I might be, and certainly whether I'm sailing offshore, or a more protected body of water...


When I posted the question, it primarily had to do with when your boat is overpowered (thus impacting rudder angle). Curious as to if larger heavier boats are able to handle higher wind speeds as oposed to a smaller lighter boat and what specific wind speeds they might handle.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Casey, I have no idea what your boat and rig are like.

Or what your purpose in reefing is.

If you want to optimize boat speed, you reef according to the VPPs for your boat. You may be surprised to find that putting in the first reef and reducing the job at speeds as low as 15 knots can _increase _your effective speed, by reducing leeway and allowing the boat to stand up right.

If you can't access VPPs, you need to try different sail combinations at different wind speeds to find out what's "true" for your boat. (With whatever crew you normally sail with, as opposed to what the VPPs call for.)

Reefing? Generally, if you have to ask, you should have done so about fifteen minutes earlier. That's for comfort. Sometimes not reefing and letting the rail make a splash is great entertainment too.(G)


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> Casey, I have no idea what your boat and rig are like.
> 
> Or what your purpose in reefing is.
> 
> ...


I do not have a VPP for my boat, although as I remember S&S designed the boat to sail fastest at a heel angle of 23.5 degree. I normally sail at about 15 degree max as single handing normally, I do not like to press the boat. I am normally well reefed (over reefed) and could normally sail at least 2 knots faster (5.5 knots as compared to 7.5 knots) by taking a reef out (and probably be at the 23.5 degree), but that is really pushing the boat and keeping me on my toes.


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## glassdad (Feb 21, 2009)

I tend to reef at 15 to 20 knots. It is more of a feel thing. If the boat feels overpowered, I will furl the Jenny. If it seems too windy, I reef when raising the main. It is easier to shake out a reef than to put one in. The boat is a Catalina 30. 

I find that on most days that I reef, many others do not. I sail at a much more comfortable angle of heel and tend not to lose much , if any, boat speed.


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## dabnis (Jul 29, 2007)

Coronado 25, ten years out of Sausalito, in & outside of San Francisco Bay, in partnership with my Dad, who loved to "bury the rail", he knew better, he just liked to do it, used to make our daughters squeal & my wife dive for cover below.

I was the "referee". In the summer afternoons the stock sails would overpower the boat big time. Finally convinced my Dad to get a smaller jib & installed jiffy reefing, which was a big improvement.

When to reef? as others mentioned, when, or better yet, before the boat is overpowered, lots of variables, gut instinct. When my Dad wasn't with us, I would put the first reef in at the dock. When he was with us, it was a struggle as to when to reef.

Paul T


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

smurphny said:


> Do you use the main if you have the runners engaged?


Of course. They (or the staysail) wouldn't be much good otherwise.

Recognize that the runners are generally only needed upwind. You don't need them both - just the upwind one. When you tack you ease the upwind runner, tack, and take up the (new) upwind runner.

When you rig your trysail you have to take the runners into consideration so they don't foul one another.



smurphny said:


> A mistake/jibe could bring down the works if the boom slammed into the runners, especially in the heavy winds you'd be dealing with at the time.


Off the wind move the runners back forward to their parking spot and rig a preventer on the main. I've never seen a mast pump on reefed main and staysail well off the wind.

The greatest value of a trysail is to protect your main so you can make good speed after things settle down. Personally I'm a "deep reef in the main" guy. I don't have a boom crutch and I'm not strong enough to get the main off the boom and below anyway so my judgment is to reef the heck out the sails. The worst I've been in is F8 rising 9 for a couple of days in the English Channel. YMMV.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

Real men don't reef:


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

marieholm folkboat san francisco bay

no reef in main, just spill in 20 knots plus used a blade in summer(25knots) and a nice 130 jib or so in "softer" months wind wise...15knots

the boat did fine up til 35 knot steady gusts or so and then you ad to drop the jib and sail with main only.

and in my opinion casey posted the question correctly as he stated post BOAT TYPE and CONDITIONS , so all info should be related to boats you have sailed, they will all vary on when they need to be reefed or not.


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## SHNOOL (Jun 7, 2007)

Wait I KNOW this one...
"before you think of it."

ugh.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

christian.hess said:


> and in my opinion casey posted the question correctly as he stated post BOAT TYPE and CONDITIONS , so all info should be related to boats you have sailed, they will all vary on when they need to be reefed or not.


Indeed he did, my apologies if my comment seemed dismissive... It just seems to me, even when speaking of specific "boat type(s) and length", there can be such a wide assortment of variables at play, that the most meaningful response will usually begin with something akin to _"Well, it depends..."_


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

SVAuspicious said:


> Of course. They (or the staysail) wouldn't be much good otherwise.
> 
> Recognize that the runners are generally only needed upwind. You don't need them both - just the upwind one. When you tack you ease the upwind runner, tack, and take up the (new) upwind runner.
> 
> ...


Am learning about the use of the inner forestay. Maybe I'll get a small headsail for it and try that. Would be nice to use it for something other than the storm sail configuration.


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## Don L (Aug 8, 2008)

I don't have a wind gage so reef by feel (both the boat and myself). We're crusier types and not racer types and don't sail hard feeling that is just hard on both the boat and us.

-normally will reef if the boat is getting near 20 degrees of heel during gusts (means were are at 15 degrees already)
-normally this is boat speed in the mid 7s on close haul to close reach, but even if it is 6.5 we will reef
-greater than 8 knots on a broad reach if not under calm conditions with the chute up
-reef sooner if the waves are adding a lot to the heel
-if rudder is more than 10 degrees (this would be rare)

We also have a rule on the boat that we reef if anyone on the boat is not comfortable. The other night that met we were reefed in choppy seas while doing 6.5 knots, which was fast enough for us.

It is common for us to be the only boat we see around with a reef in (goes with that lots of times we are also the only boat with the chute up in light wind). But we aren't really going slower as we find that reefing sits the boat up and only loses a small amount of speed.


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## Sabreman (Sep 23, 2006)

> -normally will reef if the boat is getting near 20 degrees of heel during gusts (means were are at 15 degrees already)
> -normally this is boat speed in the mid 7s on close haul to close reach, but even if it is 6.5 we will reef
> -greater than 8 knots on a broad reach if not under calm conditions with the chute up
> -reach sooner if the waves are adding a lot to the heel
> -if rudder is more than 10 degrees (this would be rare)


Nice set of definitive conditions.



> we find that reefing sits the boat up and only loses a small amount of speed


At times, we've found our speed to increase after reefing when going upwind because weather helm is reduced and we're not sailing with the brakes on.


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## christian.hess (Sep 18, 2013)

a generalm very general "when to reef" situation on most boats I have had is, when in windy conditions, easing the main to luff a bit(upwind) and you see no change in SOG or no noticeable reduction in heel angle, maybe just a degree or 2, basically you are overcanvassed, and take in a reef or 2.

that does mean however that you get to the point of reefing too late, BUT its a good way to see what works on your boat if you are new to it for example, and you can plan and take notes on wind angle and speed and then on a later sail you know that at certain windspeed you should start putting a reef in for that magical number

so say you noticed your main sail was ineffective(or not adding speed) at 18knots at 15-16 you can reef in and by the time the wind climbs to 18plus you are in business.

focus on 1 sail at a time in windy conditions and see what it likes better some boats as has been mentioned already sail better with main some with a jib only or combo of sails of ketch or yawl, or cutter etc...

you do hwoever have to know what your boat was designed with first of all...

an ior boat will have waaaaaaaay different reefing likes and dislikes than a cca boat.

peace


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## Aaron42 (Jun 20, 2014)

I sail on a relatively small lake and if I go too fast then I have to tack or gybe too often. I hate having to tack mid-beer. Since the wind often blows 20-30 knots I'm most often sailing on a reefed main only.


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## tempest (Feb 12, 2007)

Going to weather, my goal is to adjust the sails and balance to the point that the boat sails herself without the need to have me steer or have the auto-pilot engaged, and probably a little less than 10 degrees of rudder angle. This often means shortening sail but I'm out by myself a lot on weekdays so it's more relaxing for me. I can sit on deck and watch the world go by. 

A few weeks ago I set a course for Rockaway Point. ( about 15 miles from me) and never touched the wheel. If needed, I can make slight course adjustments using the traveler or the sails.


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## casey1999 (Oct 18, 2010)

JonEisberg said:


> Indeed he did, my apologies if my comment seemed dismissive... It just seems to me, even when speaking of specific "boat type(s) and length", there can be such a wide assortment of variables at play, that the most meaningful response will usually begin with something akin to _"Well, it depends..."_


Aloha Jon,
Like life and women, yes it all depends on the circumstances. However I have learned a lot from this thread. In general it looks as if most reef at about 20 knots, no matter what type of boat you have. Sea state and point of sail (as well as air temp) may dictate reefing earlier.
Thanks all


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## Cdory28167 (Sep 6, 2011)

Cape Dory 28... first reef in the main at about 15 knots, or less if I think it's going higher. Next is a reduction in the Genoa... at no more than 20 knots. The tiller pretty much tells me when I have to reduce sail area.


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## Bill-Rangatira (Dec 17, 2006)

time to reef i'm safely sitting at anchor waiting out a gale
1974 Discovery 32 - 2
do swap out fores though
pick the one best suited for the day


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

When do I reef?

When I'm scared. Even a little... What? It's true! 


Sorry I can't provide the details right now as I'm transitioning to a new boat. Not sure yet what wind speed and wind angles will scare me yet. 

MedSailor


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## paikea (Aug 3, 2014)

MedSailor said:


> When do I reef?
> 
> When I'm scared. Even a little... What? It's true!
> 
> MedSailor


I think its good to be scared.  
I know this will be a dumb question for many here, but here it is nonetheless, I still don't know a lot of things, so, what exactly happens to the boat when the reefing isn't done timely, or not done at all? 
Capsize? Sails damage? Mast damage?


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## TomMaine (Dec 21, 2010)

My boat, a 1961 Alden Challenger yawl, likes a reef in the main, early. 

Going to windward, I start thinking about it at 10-12 knots. If I planned to be close hauled for some time, I'm happy with a reef in the main even at 10 knots. The boat is on it's feet, helm is easy, and the mizzen begins to help a biit as there's space enough between the sails for the mizzen to move out of the turbulence. 

Best of all, it's faster to windward with one reef above about 12 knots. 

At 15 or so knots, I need to reef the 135%, douse the mizzen and probably would be happier if a second reef was already in the main. 

20 knots, windward is tough. My 135% genoa rolls nicely down to about 110-100%, but quickly looses proper windward shape after that. Dousing the main altogether at 20 and running small headsail and mizzen alone is fine off the wind, but windward ability without soone main is dismal. 

Off the wind, I can carry more sail. My boat has quite a bit of SA/D for an older boat and I keep it very lightly loaded for best light air performance. 

I learned racing on an older sloop years ago, that a reefed main with an ample genoa up front, is a go-fast tool to windward. That's very effective with this yawl, as well. It gives you a fast easy helm to steer though seas and best speed.


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## mmazour (May 23, 2000)

Precision 28 - 13 knots/15 mph first reef with full 130% genoa. When it gets to 16 knots/18 mph I roll in the genoa to about 100%. This is when I race, if I am out for a daysail single handed or with my wife and I think it's time to reef I drop the main head back into the marina on the genoa. 

Side note I really like my boat but, after racing/crewing on an S2 9.2 and Catalina 30 FK I feel that my boat is quite tender. When I single handle I love it but when I race I wish I had a little heavier boat.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

paikea said:


> I think its good to be scared.
> I know this will be a dumb question for many here, but here it is nonetheless, I still don't know a lot of things, so, what exactly happens to the boat when the reefing isn't done timely, or not done at all?
> Capsize? Sails damage? Mast damage?


If you are reaching or beating then the boat will heel more and tend to round up [ turn in to the wind ]. Uncomfortable but not dangerous. The boat tells you is is uncomfortable and asks you politely to reef.










The dangerous situation occurs when you are running down wind say, wing on wing, and the wind increases. It is easy to get carried away enjoying the speed but if you start to turn into the wind it is easy to lose control or broach and the next few minutes will be exciting and possibly dangerous. breaking the boom if it dips into the water is a definite possibility. On a cruising boat it will rearrange the contents of your lockers.

Not likely on a cruising boat but it can happen.


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## Ravenstein (Aug 7, 2014)

If you are questioning if it is time to reef, you should already been reefed!


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

When your pants go brown, pull some sails down.


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## MarkSF (Feb 21, 2011)

Aaron42 said:


> I sail on a relatively small lake and if I go too fast then I have to tack or gybe too often. I hate having to tack mid-beer. Since the wind often blows 20-30 knots I'm most often sailing on a reefed main only.


Half your posts refer to drinking while you're sailing. In case you're in any doubt, drinking while sailing is really dumb.


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## paikea (Aug 3, 2014)

TQA said:


> If you are reaching or beating then the boat will heel more and tend to round up [ turn in to the wind ]. Uncomfortable but not dangerous. The boat tells you is is uncomfortable and asks you politely to reef.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you TQA. 
So it really comes down to literally losing control of the boat, then all sort of things can happen for which the sailor no longer has a say in, and yes, my question was especially for a typical sailboat 25'<LOA>40'. 
I guess just like with cars then, too much speed, doing turns at a wrong angle, and/or too fast, the result is losing control. 
I am going to research why the boat tends to "turn into the wind" when beating or reaching and I presume if its a beam reach or close reach, that happening is less likely compared to close hauled, or more likely. 
And then down wind, on a butterfly situation one should try to slow the boat down before trying to tack or jibe. Which must be tricky, once the boat has too high of a speed slowing it down doesn't seem easy.

Every time I somehow felt I lost control of the boat, instantly I would question why, what I did wrong, what I should have done differently, and mostly what I should do in that exact moment to regain control. 
So thank you. I know this will all come to light with a lot of practice, but I don't underestimate the theory and foundation if it either.


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## Irunbird (Aug 10, 2008)

We race and cruise about 50/50, and I singlehand about 50% of the time I cruise. Reefing the main is done anywhere between 15-20% of heel angle (or more- my boat is really light and tender, so it slides sideways considerably when heeled excessively; more than most). That's a big deal when we're racing, but depending on conditions (gusty vs steady breeze and whether or not I have crew to put on the rail) I may or may not reef the main. My headsails are not reefable- I'll take down a larger genoa and go to smaller jibs to achieve sail balance. This is an Olson 30- 4200 lb displacement, and ideally, I don't like much more than around 5 deg of weather helm when close hauled.. you can feel the drag on the rudder and see boats passing...


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## zeehag (Nov 16, 2008)

for me it isnt about the speed of boat or wind..itis all about the weather. 
using jib n jigger, i will reef if n when i am screamed at by the boat, usually within time to fix the problem.
took 60 kr chubasco with 3 wraps on jib n first reef on mizzensail and still achieved 8.4 kts boat speed in 60 kts winds....


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## doug1957 (Dec 13, 2011)

It's usually between about 15 to 20 kts true for us on a Shannon 28. But it is a bit flexible. On a fairly calm sea day with 18 kts wind we had all the canvas out and it was fine and could have gone to a bit more wind, but on a day with confused high seas (coastal sailing high seas), reefing earlier at 15 kts makes everything go a bit better and helps keep the boat under control.


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

paikea said:


> Thank you TQA.
> So it really comes down to literally losing control of the boat, then all sort of things can happen for which the sailor no longer has a say in, and yes, my question was especially for a typical sailboat 25'<LOA>40'.
> I guess just like with cars then, too much speed, doing turns at a wrong angle, and/or too fast, the result is losing control.
> I am going to research why the boat tends to "turn into the wind" when beating or reaching and I presume if its a beam reach or close reach, that happening is less likely compared to close hauled, or more likely.
> ...


Good clip here explains what to do. Bit race orientated. When cruising sensible people would have shortened sail a loooooong time ago.






This one is more cruising orientated. 




Re slowing the boat when going downwind and assuming you are wing on wing, I depower the main as much as possible by letting off the kicker and possibly raising the boom using the topping lift [ scandalizing ] then roll the headsail away. Now you can come round into the wind to put a reef in. People keep telling me that is is possible to reef while going down wind but I cant do it


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## ccriders (Jul 8, 2006)

SVAuspicious said:


> Off the wind move the runners back forward to their parking spot and rig a preventer on the main. I've never seen a mast pump on reefed main and staysail well off the wind.


SVA,
Are you saying that if you rig up a remove able fore stay for a staysail (storm sail?) and have a reefed main (head of main no higher than where stay fits to mast?) that running back stays would not be required?
Would this also apply to a rig with two shrouds, an upper and a lower?
John


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

paikea said:


> Thank you TQA.
> So it really comes down to literally losing control of the boat, then all sort of things can happen for which the sailor no longer has a say in, and yes, my question was especially for a typical sailboat 25'<LOA>40'.
> I guess just like with cars then, too much speed, doing turns at a wrong angle, and/or too fast, the result is losing control.
> I am going to research why the boat tends to "turn into the wind" when beating or reaching and I presume if its a beam reach or close reach, that happening is less likely compared to close hauled, or more likely.
> ...


The boat turns "into the wind" because it's designed too!

Find a diagram of your boat from the top and note the position of the keel. The keel anchors the boat. Now consider that the wind is blowing from one side and pretend that the boat can only rotate on the keel. Any wind that hits the boat behind the keel will try to rotate the boat towards the wind. Wind that hits the boat in front of the keel will blow the bow away from the wind.

A boat is "balanced" when these forces basically match. Boats are designed intentionally so that with normal sail configurations they turn into the wind - it takes helm input (weather helm) in this case to keep the boat straight.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

paikea-
"I am going to research why the boat tends to "turn into the wind" when beating or reaching "
Your boat is turning into the wind for the same reason that a wind vane rotates and points into the wind. Basically, there is a center of balance vaguely around where the mast sits on a sloop. Apply pressure to the sail area in front of the mast, and the boat turns one way. Apply pressure behind the mast, from the same side, and the boat rotates the other way. (Make a toy wind vane and poke at it if that's not clear.)
Now, to complicate life, it isn't just wind on the sails. The underbody, hull, keel, rudder, is "twisted" by the water flow in the same way. As the boat heels, it gets more complicated because the portion of the hull that is immersed, has a different profile as it heels. Which also upsets the balance.

Bottom line, the hull shape, the sail balance (both trim and sizes) and the amount of heel all affect how the boat weathercocks into the wind, or less often, away from it. The only part of that which you can control is the sails. Raking the mast, bending it, sail trim, reefing, all will affect that. And affect heeling and how that fits in as well. With many boats, if you heel enough the rudder also mainly comes out of the water, and you lose the ability to turn away from the wind if you're rounding up.

If it sounds complicated, yes, it can be. A finely balanced boat is not easily designed, and sometimes even the designers are surprised when one turns out to be especially well mannered.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

hellosailor said:


> paikea-
> "I am going to research why the boat tends to "turn into the wind" when beating or reaching "
> Your boat is turning into the wind for the same reason that a wind vane rotates and points into the wind. Basically, there is a center of balance vaguely around where the mast sits on a sloop. Apply pressure to the sail area in front of the mast, and the boat turns one way. Apply pressure behind the mast, from the same side, and the boat rotates the other way. (Make a toy wind vane and poke at it if that's not clear.)
> Now, to complicate life, it isn't just wind on the sails. The underbody, hull, keel, rudder, is "twisted" by the water flow in the same way. As the boat heels, it gets more complicated because the portion of the hull that is immersed, has a different profile as it heels. Which also upsets the balance.
> ...


Nobody has explained it all better...










I'll bet the answer to fully half of the questions that arise around here, can be found within those pages...

As for the rest, we'll just have to wait until Jeff H writes his book...


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

JonEisberg said:


> .......As for the rest, we'll just have to wait until Jeff H writes his book...


Man... that's gonna be one THICK book!!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Faster said:


> Man... that's gonna be one THICK book!!


I'm guessing If your remove WAR AND PEACE from your bookshelf, you might just just be able to wedge it in there...



Another great book on yacht design, is Steve Killing's YACHT DESIGN EXPLAINED... Unfortunately, copies of it seem all but impossible to find... Part of my retirement plan, will be to put my copy on eBay when the time is right...


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## paikea (Aug 3, 2014)

Note to self: "don't open Sailnet when you are supposed to work". 

asdf38 and hellosailor - thank you for the explanation. Here I am supposed to work actually and I get pulled into now wanting to make sense of this. I actually enjoy it. Its not too complicated hellosailor, I have studied enough physics to be able to wrap my head around it through an explanation, the language though is what sometimes cripples me, the "boat language". My English doesn't go that far, for now that is. But you put it really nicely, both of you. It will be awesome when out there it will all click, the theory with the practical. 

JonEisberg - I actually have Bob's book! Honestly didn't get to it yet apart from browsing through it over a cup of tea, reading other 3 books now at the same time (of course sailing related) and if I start too many that's not productive. But very much looking forward to it.


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## paikea (Aug 3, 2014)

JonEisberg said:


> I'm guessing If your remove WAR AND PEACE from your bookshelf, you might just just be able to wedge it in there...


Faster, no no, don't remove War and Peace, that's a bible in itself, just build a bigger bookshelf, or well, buy a bigger boat!


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## jimmyb514 (Sep 9, 2007)

As a young man I would reef quite often, not so much anymore.


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

ccriders said:


> SVAuspicious said:
> 
> 
> > Off the wind move the runners back forward to their parking spot and rig a preventer on the main. I've never seen a mast pump on reefed main and staysail well off the wind.
> ...


Not quite. What I am saying is that the loads are high where an inner forestay is connected to the mast when going upwind. Mast pumping (hard on equipment) is a common result. That is why many boats have running backstays, to carry those loads into the hull.

Off the wind, especially with the main reefed, the loads are lower and the main is usually capable of carrying those loads.

If that isn't the case on a particular boat in a particular situation you can still use the windward runner without interference with the boom and preventer.

Don't forget the preventer.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

I recently committed bibliocide and submitted some of my books to a guillotine cutter. Then fed the unbound pages into a scanner, and can now fit several feet of books into a corner of a postage stamp. But I'm still not quite sure how thick an ebook is, my ruler doesn't go down that tiny.(G)


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## paikea (Aug 3, 2014)

Ahhh hellosailor, how could you!  I am still not used to electronic format. I have kindle, I have plenty of books on it, but I still like to hold a book, to smell the pages...

This is so far my modest sailing collection and set apart from my library, right next to my bed, because I read them every evening. I would have a serious problem to part from them. No such thing!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

paikea said:


> Ahhh hellosailor, how could you!  I am still not used to electronic format. I have kindle, I have plenty of books on it, but I still like to hold a book, to smell the pages...
> 
> This is so far my modest sailing collection and set apart from my library, right next to my bed, because I read them every evening. I would have a serious problem to part from them. No such thing!


That's a very nice selection, but I think you need at least one more by Don Casey...

Really a pity that this one never gained the wider readership it deserved...

Sensible Cruising: The Thoreau Approach : A Philosophic and Practical Approach to Cruising: Don Casey, Lew Hackler, Bobby Basnight: 9780877422884: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@41J7CAN8EWL


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## paikea (Aug 3, 2014)

Thank you JonEisberg, indeed, I have that book, and more, on my list "to get in future", I tried already but amazon wont ship it where I am now. But that will be sorted soon.


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

paikea said:


> Ahhh hellosailor, how could you!  I am still not used to electronic format. I have kindle, I have plenty of books on it, but I still like to hold a book, to smell the pages...
> 
> This is so far my modest sailing collection and set apart from my library, right next to my bed, because I read them every evening. I would have a serious problem to part from them. No such thing!


What no chapelle


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## paikea (Aug 3, 2014)

Now that's the first I heard of that one. Thank you newhaul. 
But also how many yacht design books could I possibly need? 
What I need in the end is to manage to find "the" blue water boat and hopefully thinking it through with my own head. 

Ok, I will be scolded soon for a thread drift here, but then I will just blame it on War and Peace and hellosailor!


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## newhaul (Feb 19, 2010)

That was just the first book of his that came to mind of his also don't forget to laugh a lil farley mowat The Boat Who Wouldn't Float: Farley Mowat: 9780553277883: Amazon.com: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@51G6vFtYUHL


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## paikea (Aug 3, 2014)

I love these books. They teach you a lot. 
Especially that when life shakes you hard all you can do is grab it and shake it back with all your mighty.


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Chapelle: 62MB. And that's without squeezing anything. Even an old Kindle holds what, a thousand books once you squeeze 'em down a bit?

If I've killed them in order to make them live forever, am I good or evil? So confusing....

Paikea, what you might want to do is get hold of "Practical Boat Buying" or whatever it is Practical Sailor calls their collection of reviews these days. Last I saw, two thick volumes available used quite reasonably. Their reviews are liberally peppered with owner comments and feedback from their subscribers and it can be interesting to here comments about specific boats. The newer editions expand on the older ones but include all the older material as well, so a newish edition is worth looking for.


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## MedSailor (Mar 30, 2008)

MarkSF said:


> Half your posts refer to drinking while you're sailing. In case you're in any doubt, drinking while sailing is really dumb.


I dunno about that. Hundreds of years of naval tradition would beg to differ. Sailing dry is a modern phenomenon.

Cheers!

MedSailor


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

That's because mixing bad rum with bad water makes good drink. What a bunch of pansies since attitudes changed. Now we even wash in good water.


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## claireDuet (Sep 23, 2014)

MedSailor said:


> When do I reef?
> 
> When I'm scared. Even a little... What? It's true!
> 
> MedSailor


Me too! I don't like it tippy...

Seriously though, I have a 22 foot Hurley and it depends on the sea state and how much it's gusting but usually around 14kts for the first reef in the main, and the second reef will be in by 21kts or so. Start to take in the Genoa in the middle there too..

I single hand so err on the side of caution. I was always told to put a reef in the first moment you think you might need one. You can always shake it out again...

Claire


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## hellosailor (Apr 11, 2006)

Med, the man has a point. If you're going to be drinking, and the boat isn't firmly anchored or docked, it might move and you could spill your drink! Now unless you're drinking real cheap rotgut, that's a waste of good booze. No real drinker would let that happen.


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## Minnesail (Feb 19, 2013)

I chartered a Beneteau 393 last week and I apologize for double-posting this picture, but damn I'm proud of it! We were in winds in the upper 20s with gusts to the upper 30s. We were on a broad reach and I had the sails in what was marked as the third reef (furling sails, the reef points are imaginary).

Nine knots on the third reef!









The next day winds were in the upper teens and not so gusty, so we started out close-hauled with a full main and first reef in the jib. We were heeling excessively so I pulled the main in a reef and the boat flattened out and we picked up a knot.

Reefing is good.


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## thejetjerk (Aug 2, 2012)

If the helmsmen yells down below to come quickly and bring the bolt cutters you wait too long to reef.


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## Plumbean (Dec 17, 2009)

Casey: As you know, same boat as you (S&S 34), MKI and with a double spreader tall rig. 

I downsize my headsail first. I've got a 135% genoa that I use in up to about 15 - 17 knots. Above that and I go to my #3, which is about 105%, with a reef going in the main anywhere from the same time I downsize to the #3 to 20 knots. Second reef goes in about 25 knots. A lot of this depends on who is in the boat. If I'm by myself, I'm liable to wait longer to reef because I don't mind the heeling. With the kids on board, much different story.


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## albrazzi (Oct 15, 2014)

Frogwatch said:


> I have reefed when my crew thought I shouldnt and I think I am correct. Going from Green Turtle to marsh harbor, I went below and took a nap while crew sailed. About an hour later, looked out and noticed we were really moving dead downwind. Glance at the GPS, WTF, 8 kts? Not possible for a 28' boat but then I look at anemometer and it reads 28 kts from dead astern. HOLY CRAP, REEF NOW. Fortunately we were under only main, Sea of Abaco choppy but not much height because wind was blocked by land. I knew that if we accidently jibed, it wouldnt be pretty and that although my rigging is relatively new, the boat is old, so time to reef. Crew was having a ball and didnt want to reef but I insisted and we muscled the main down to the 1st reef and then down all the way when I realized that the anemometer was reading from only 10' above deck (on a pole on stern) and that I needed to add boats forward spd to the wind spd and then we sailed under partial jib. We finally settled into only 6.5 kts in a clear blue sky with 30+ kts wind.


Downwind in these wind speeds it makes lots of sense to use the headsail only, its always easier to deploy and douse even without roller furling. Now, racing would be different but you better be able to reef deep to go windward.


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