# Coast Guard OUPV question



## KindOfBlue (Nov 22, 2005)

I am getting geared up to take the OUPV test and I am self studying. The rules of the road section is closed book and I know those very very well. I should be able to pass that section, however I am wondering what they mean by "open book" for the other parts of the exam. For instance can I bring in all of my study guides, Dutton's, etc? I know that the CFRs are there, but what other books are available and what can I bring with me?


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

They will provide the books for you(or at least they used to). There is a list of all the books available to you available with the testing information. You should be able to find it by searching their website. Realistically, they probably won't be that much help if you have studied. When I took the test, I think that I may have looked up 2 or 3 things in the CFR's and that is it.

There is also a member here who teaches the classes and he might have the list on hand.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

IIRC in addition to the CFR's they have the Coast Pilot's and Chapmans, and some others but they should be able to tell you what is there. You can go there and get familiar with it prior to taking your test, time well spent. Good luck, I home studied too and passed (50 ton) but it ain't easy. I have a friend that teaches classes and he has said he doesn't know how anyone can do it because of the volume of material to cover.


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## closehauled14 (Oct 26, 2009)

I wouldn't sweat it too bad. If you have the sea time to get your 6 pack, then you probobly already know most of it anyways. The thing that I struggled with was the dayshapes. I still have never seen a dayshape on anything other than a dredge or a ship. Honestly, does anyone fly the cone from the spreaders when motorsailing?


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

If you are not a seasoned offshore merchantman, to pass the Safety and General section you need to be familiar with the organization, structure and format of the CFRs. From my one exposure to the test, an experienced boater will get about 30-40% of these questions right off the bat, then about half of them can be found by careful searching of the CFRs, if you have some idea what to look for, and of where to look, giving you the 70% passing grade that is required. You can't study the CFRs.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

The Open book part is on the Nav Plot, Nav gen, & Deck Gen/safety.
You will have for the area you are testing in; Coast Pilot, Light List, Tide & Current tables and the CFRs (Code of Federal Regulations). Plus a Diagram book that covers all subjects.

For OUPV you may have one or two questions requiring the CFRs.
For Nav Plot & Nav Gen you will need all others that I have listed.

Bring your own plotting tools. Your Caculator can not be programmable. But a good scientific caculator such as a Casio FX300 will do you good. But you have to be really use to it before the exam.

Also the Geographic range table & the Luminous range table are found in the light list. You may have a question or two that may require the use of them. 

The deck exam contains; Deck safety, Seamanship, Boat construction, Fire fighting, First aid, CFR, and Weather. The CFRs and the Diagram book are needed here.

Mark (boasun)
Maritime Instructor
USN Ret.


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## closehauled14 (Oct 26, 2009)

Man, 70%? I should have home studied too, and saved myself some cash. I went to "Sea School", spent $800, and had to make a 90 on everything except rules of the road. Had to score a 100 on that part.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

closehauled14 said:


> Man, 70%? I should have home studied too, and saved myself some cash. I went to "Sea School", spent $800, and had to make a 90 on everything except rules of the road. Had to score a 100 on that part.


Well then you are better equiped to work your vessel offshore then.... 
Consider it money well spent.


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## closehauled14 (Oct 26, 2009)

You're probobly right. I went to their school in Charleston. It took like ten days, but I had a blast while I was down there. Met some pretty cool people too.


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

closehauled14 said:


> Man, 70%? I should have home studied too, and saved myself some cash. I went to "Sea School", spent $800, and had to make a 90 on everything except rules of the road. Had to score a 100 on that part.


Consider it the best $800 you ever spent compared to going it alone. The classes go over what you will need to pass the tests (since they know what is going to be on the test). You have to study everything on your own because you have no idea what might be asked. It took me three months of studying, a lot, but I passed first time. It's amazing how much I've blanked out already though


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## Garffin (Oct 22, 2009)

Not trying to jump in on this but I was wondering if I have a bit of sea time already and can use some of it and I was hoping to use my own sailboat for the past 3 years thing is there a certain size boat/sailboat that you have to own in order for it to be able to count? Ive looked at google and can't seem to find anything with that info. ?? Thanks Dan


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## klem (Oct 16, 2009)

Garffin,

In my experience, it is kind of up to the evaluator as to what counts for time but your boat will certainly count. I suspect that things have gotten stricter now that it is all centralized and not done in 1 location. When I got my first license at 18, the evaluator was willing to count time down to 15 years old and he actually counted a lot of time on small boats (15-20ft). When I renew, I no longer count that time. Rumor had it that when there was a florida examination office, they were known to give out time for jet skis, who knows whether that was true.

The thing that you will find when using time from your boat is that it will affect the tonnage of your license. This won't matter for an OUPV but if you want a 100 ton, you probably won't have the tonnage and will need to go for a 25 or 50 instead. I don't remember how many days you have to have at each tonnage level to get the different licenses but you should be able to find it. As long as you have 360 days total and 90 days in the past 5 years, you qualify for a six pack or a 25/50/100 inland. To get a near coastal license, you need 720 days of which at least 360 need to be beyond the inland line.

If you go for a license, take the towing and aux sail endorsements while you are at it. Both are 20 questions and you need at least half the number of days of required time as sail to go for that endorsement.

I hope that I am remembering this correctly. If I messed any of it up, someone please correct me.


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## joethecobbler (Apr 10, 2007)

I use the dayshapes. I wish more people would.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Rule 25: A vessel less than 12 meters is not required to exhibit dayshapes.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

bubb2 said:


> Rule 25: A vessel less than 12 meters is not required to exhibit dayshapes.


Note this exception is for the Inland Rule only, the International Rule permits no exception. You need to pay attention to where the demarcation lines are. Adherence to this rule is pretty low, most small, recreational sail vessels don't have any dayshapes on board. If you are licensed, the best thing to do is furl your sails when powering in International waterways.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

Garffin said:


> Not trying to jump in on this but I was wondering if I have a bit of sea time already and can use some of it and I was hoping to use my own sailboat for the past 3 years thing is there a certain size boat/sailboat that you have to own in order for it to be able to count? Ive looked at google and can't seem to find anything with that info. ?? Thanks Dan


Here you go:
Charter Boat Captain Information - USCG National Maritime Center


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

sailingfool said:


> Note this exception is for the Inland Rule only, the International Rule permits no exception.


(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards. _A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so._ [Inld] (inland)

A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not _required _to exhibit this shape. (international)

If you are saying a boat under 12 meters is required to display a steaming cone, under international rules, You are Wrong!

And this is a test Question, or was on my test.

You can look up the answer yourself Pages 78 and 79.
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/mwv_files/nr_files/navrules.pdf


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## jrd22 (Nov 14, 2000)

A fun test of the knowledge of dayshapes is to hang a ball off the spreaders at anchor and count how many people come by and ask what it's for.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

bubb2 said:


> (e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards. _A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so._ [Inld] (inland)
> 
> A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not _required _to exhibit this shape. (international)
> 
> ...


Hmmm...thanks for the link, this is what I see on Page 78-79:

"

-INTERNATIONAL- 
Lights and Shapes 
RULE 25-CONTINUED ​(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards. ​
{Image}
Vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by 
machinery. Same for Inland except that a vessel of less than 
12 meters in length is not required to exhibit the dayshape. ​

-INLAND- 
Lights and Shapes 
RULE 25-CONTINUED ​(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downward. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so. "​
I'd suggest that you are mis-reading the text if you believe that the exception comment in the IMAGE description is intended to apply to International...if it did, they would have just written it that way.​
Understanding these exceptions are what makes the test a challenge. That there might be a difference of opinion as to what the words mean, would indicate the fundamental problem that the Rules are not very well written.​


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

sailingfool said:


> Same for Inland except that a vessel of less than
> 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit the dayshape​


"The same for Inland" refers to the the size and shape and placement of the dayshape. Those requirements are the same for both inland and International vessels over 12 meters.

Except, International vessels under 12 meters do not display a steaming cone. 12 meters and under Inland has the option.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

And all of this because one guy asked what books he can use during the USCG exam.

You can only apply for a towing endorsement if you have a years time on tugs.

Also note: The USCG are coming out with more Regs of education needed before you can apply for a license... So if you can, apply for one now and acquire one before those regs go into effect.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Bosan, They are referring to "Assistance Towing Endorsement" Like you would use to work for sea tow or tow boat us.

*10.482 Assistance towing.*
(a) This section contains the requirements
to qualify for an endorsement
authorizing an applicant to engage in
assistance towing. The endorsement
applies to all licenses except those for
master and mate (pilot) of towing vessels
and those for master or mate authorizing
service on inspected vessels
over 200 gross tons. Holders of any of
these licenses may engage in assistance
towing within the scope of the licenses
and without the endorsement.
(b) An applicant for an assistance
towing endorsement shall pass a written
examination demonstrating his or
her knowledge of assistance towing
safety, equipment, and procedures.
(c) An assistance towing endorsement
on a license as master, mate, or operator
authorizes the holder to engage in
assistance towing on any vessel within
the scope of the license.
(d) The period of validity of the endorsement
is the same as the license on
which it is endorsed, and it may be renewed
with the license.​

[CGD 87
-017, 53 FR 18562, May 24, 1988, as
amended by USCG​​
-1999-6224, 64 FR 63235,
Nov. 19, 1999]​*§ 10.491 Licenses for service*
​


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

bubb2 said:


> ....
> Except, International vessels under 12 meters do not display a steaming cone. 12 meters and under Inland has the option.


This is sorta silly, but for the benefit of other sailors, we ought to be able to answer a simple regulatory question.

I went back and read Rule 25 twice. and I see no size exception in the International Rule 25. That's how I've always remembered it, perhaps I just can't see it. The International Rule is only one sentence long...where the Inland Rule is two sentences, one being an exception for size.

If you read here, FedReq - Pages 22-28 - Equipment Requirements/Navigation Rules the limitation of the size exception to inland is clear. 
"
Sailing Vessels Under Power

_During the day, vessels under sail also being propelled by machinery, must exhibit forward, where best seen, a conical shape with the apex pointing down _(See Figure 9). Vessels less than 12 meters are not required to exhibit the dayshape in *inland* waters. "
​


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

You are not going to let this go are you? Your are using a second hand source that has a 1999 copyright. Boat safety . com. You must have searched along time to find a out of date and inaccurate reference thats supports your misinformation.

Again the link, from the horse's mouth. pages 78 and 79. It is the USCG Navigational rules publication and the one I was quoting from and the one I learned from to get my Masters of Oceans and the one that required to be on board if you are a commercial vessel over 60 meters. But I am sure your sources have more creditably.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/mwv_files/nr_files/navrules.pdf


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

One more thing fool. IF you click on the Red Coast Guard banner of your reference, you will find out that the page you are using to support your claims no longer exits in the federal data base.

Here's your link again and you can try it for yourself.
FedReq - Pages 22-28 - Equipment Requirements/Navigation Rules


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

bubb2 said:


> One more thing fool. IF you click on the Red Coast Guard banner of your reference, you will find out that the page you are using to support your claims no longer exits in the federal data base.
> 
> Here's your link again and you can try it for yourself.
> FedReq - Pages 22-28 - Equipment Requirements/Navigation Rules


All I can think is you are so irritated that you arn't reading your own references.

When I click thru on your link above, I get the text below, if you think that text states a length exception for international waters, good luck, up is down, black is white, and I give up:
"
Sailing Vessels Under Power 
_During the day, vessels under sail also being propelled by machinery, must exhibit forward, where best seen, a conical shape with the apex pointing down _(See Figure 9). Vessels less than 12 meters are not required to exhibit the dayshape in inland waters. "​


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

sailingfool said:


> Hmmm...thanks for the link, this is what I see on Page 78-79:
> 
> "
> 
> ...


After reading it - I can see how it can be interpreted differently.

It seems that the following sentence - which appears to be a caption under the image in the "INTERNATIONAL- Lights and Shapes" section - is the sticky wicket:

_"Vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by
machinery. *Same for Inland except* that a vessel of less than
12 meters in length is not required to exhibit the dayshape."_

The language here, in the caption under the image, SEEMS to state that the exception applies to Inland - not to International. Yet, they put the sentence (arguably) in the International section. So you could read it both ways.

Strange. The government is usually so very clear about stuff.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

sailingfool said:


> All I can think is you are so irritated that you arn't reading your own references.


Fool, I am not irritated at all. But, I know this stuff inside and out and use to teach it. What causes me concern is there are others reading these posts and misinformation is being quoted as fact. Steaming cones are not a big deal, if it was whistle signals that would be a whole different thing.

one more time: *The same as,* refers to the size, orientation, and placement of the dayshape

_*except* that a vessel of less than_
_12 meters in length is not required to exhibit the dayshape., Refers to the_
display of the dayshape.(not required means you don't)

Rule 25 is the sailboat *Exception to rule 24.* When reading rule 25 you must keep in mind it is referring to rule 24. That is the reason for the wording *The same as, and except. *If you read rule 25 on its own you would not know what size of shape the Coast Guard calls for. You have to go to rule 20 to find that out.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

If you are to remove the image and caption, here is how the rules read by themselves:

—INTERNATIONAL—
Lights and Shapes
RULE 25—CONTINUED
(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards.

—INLAND—
Lights and Shapes
RULE 25—CONTINUED
(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downward. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so.

So, from a "legal document" standpoint, the question is, does the image caption "count" as legal language in the rules? I don't think it would in most cases. But I'm not sure here.

This is actually a pretty interesting issue.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Smack I am no lawyer it might. Inland if you want to rig a steaming cone and are under 12 meters (40 feet) you can do so and no one is going to stop you.

It the International part of the rule that does not have the wording, *but may do so*, that is causing the confusion for some.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Smack, you just can't ignore the wording under the image on page 78!

78, is the International page (Not Required)

79, is the Inland page (Not required, but may do so)

In a nut shell, in inland water any sailboat can display a steaming cone, International waters you may not if you are under 40ft.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

I agree, Bubb - I'm just saying the way they have done it makes it ambiguous. For example, going back several pages and looking at how they use the images/captions elsewhere, they typically use one image for both inland and international rules. They put it between the two rules, with the last sentence of the caption referring to the OTHER rule. And this works fine when it's the same - but gets pretty wonky on page 78 where they seem to be mixing it.

For example, look on page 80 about the fishing trawler config. The pic is under the International rule - but the last caption sentence says that the config in the image is the same for Inland. Then on 81 it shows the under 50' condition under Inland, and the last caption sentence says it's the same for International.

So using that logic of image/caption usage, I'm just saying it's real easy to draw a no-exception conclusion on page 78. It doesn't state that exception in the International rule language itself, and the second line of the caption refers to the Inland rule - including its exception (where it is explicitly stated). 

If they are sticking with the same logic as the caption usage elsewhere, that last sentence in the caption is referring to the Inland rule - not the International rule.

That said, I'm clueless on this stuff and am not arguing the rules/theory - especially with you. I'm just pointing out the fact that they didn't do a great job making it clear.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

I agree with you Smack, that many times the rules are not all that clear and at best written in code. The more you study them and work with them the more clear they become in their intent. 

There are many other examples like this in the Navigation rules that make for great discussions. However I don't think I will be pointing any of those out right now.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Heh-heh. C'mon!

Seriously, as if this stuff isn't hard enough! I definitely admire you guys that have been through all that testing, etc. That's a lot of knowledge.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Smack, personally don't like the term "not required" as it leaves the impression that it is optional. Then they have to use the Words, "but may do so" to make themselves more clear or not depending on how you read it.

Think of how, if the navigation lights section was written like this. Not required, but may do so. You could have tugs and barges running with either no lights or the pilot will light the SOB up like a Christmas tree and you wouldn't know what he was or which way he is headed.

Getting back to the original op question, this is why I think it would be very difficult to home study for a Coast Guard License. As these are the discussions you have in the class room that you miss out on, if you are doing it alone.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

bubb2 said:


> ...
> In a nut shell, in inland water any sailboat can display a steaming cone, International waters you may not if you are under 40ft.


Try a version fo the International Rules that doesn't include a picture, such as the UK's at http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/msn_1781-2.pdf

Here's COLREGS Rule 25 in full - (I have *BOLDED* 25 (e):

****************************************************
Rule 25
Sailing vessels underway and vessels under oars
(a) A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:
(i) sidelights;
(ii) a sternlight.
(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 metres in length the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.
(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule,
exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction
with the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this Rule.
(d) 
(i) A sailing vessel of less than 7 metres in length shall, if practicable, exhibit the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) or (b) of this Rule, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision.
(ii) A vessel under oars may exhibit the lights prescribed in this Rule for sailing vessels, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision.
*(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards.*
****************************************

Capt'n, if you can find your inventive interpretation anywhere in the above words, go right at it.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

sailingfool said:


> Try a version fo the International Rules that doesn't include a picture, such as the UK's at http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/msn_1781-2.pdf
> 
> Capt'n, if you can find your inventive interpretation anywhere in the above words, go right at it.


You are certainly living up to your screen name Sailingfool.

Here one of the first applications of how *COLREGS *is to be applied by various countries. You can read for yourself, It is a attempt to get everyone on the same page, however it does leave countries open to amend as they see fit. So the British and American rules are not not the same, why would that be news?
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

c) Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of any special rule made by the Government of any State with respect to additional station or signal lights, shapes or whistle signals for ships of war and vessels proceeding under convoy, or with respect to additional station or signal lights or shapes for fishing vessels engaged in fishing as a fleet. These additional station or signal lights, shapes or whistle signals shall, so far as possible, be such that they cannot be mistaken for any light, shape or signal authorized elsewhere under these Rules.

(e) Whenever the Government concerned shall have determined that a vessel of any special construction or purpose cannot comply with the provisions of any of these Rules with respect to the number, position, range or arc of visibility of lights or shapes, as well as to the disposition and characteristics of sound-signalling appliances, such vessel shall comply with such other provisions in regard to the number, position, range or arc of visibility of lights or shapes, as well as to the disposition and characteristics of sound-signalling appliances, as her Government shall have determined to be the closest possible compliance with these Rules in respect of that vessel.

International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

I sail a boat that is US flagged and documented by the USCG. The license I hold is issued by the USCG and can be revoked only by the USCG. Therefore I will use the USCG Navigation rules. If you wish to use the British interpretation. Please do! But if anything bad happens be sure to bring a copy of the British rules to your board of inquiry being conducted by the USCG, because I don't think they will have a copy of the British rules handy.

Do you know they drive on the wrong side of the road also.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

bubb2 said:


> Do you know they drive on the wrong side of the road also.


So THAT'S why I kept running into those buggers in the roundabouts! Jeez - who knew?

Okay - are there any other licensed master marinaters that can settle this throwdown between Bubb and Fool?


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

smackdaddy said:


> So THAT'S why I kept running into those buggers in the roundabouts! Jeez - who knew?
> 
> Okay - are there any other licensed master marinaters that can settle this throwdown between Bubb and Fool?


Smack, I appreciate what you are doing. But the USCG rules are what they are and read the way they read. In USCG rules there is a exception and special provision for sailboats under 12 meters and it not the same for inland and international boats. The word are the words. I didn't write them. I truly don't see the necessity for the exception, but it is there and we have to live by it.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

OK, fool, lets do your way. 

That would mean any sailing vessel entering or leaving a marina under power would have to show a steaming cone. Which in my case would be all of three minutes. Powering to a mooring. Turning the engine on to dodge a bigger boat or get out of the of a commercial vessel. Tuning on the engine to get make a tack.

It just is not practical, that may be the vary reason for the exception.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

bubb2 said:


> OK, fool, lets do your way.
> 
> That would mean any sailing vessel entering or leaving a marina under power would have to show a steaming cone. Which in my case would be all of three minutes. Powering to a mooring. Turning the engine on to dodge a bigger boat or get out of the of a commercial vessel. Tuning on the engine to get make a tack.
> 
> It just is not practical, that may be the vary reason for the exception.


If the marina is in US territorial waters, no shape is required under 12 meters. On the high seas, where there are not many marinas, a shape would be required.



> 18. What are Demarcation Lines and Territorial Seas? Demarcation Lines divide the high seas from harbors, rivers, and other inland waters of the United States, *for the purpose of determining the applicability of Inland Rules in lieu of the International Rules*. International Rules are tantamount to the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972, (72 COLREGS), while the Inland Rules are synonymous with 33 CFR 80 of United States Code.
> 
> Note, the term international water is not defined by U.S. law or the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), yet, it is commonly used to convey high seas. High seas are those waters beyond territorial seas. Territorial seas are a maritime zone extending beyond the land territory and internal waters of that country over which the country exercises sovereignty and jurisdiction, to include the airspace over the territorial sea, as well as to its bed and subsoil.
> 
> Territorial seas of the United States are 12 nautical miles from the baseline of the United States of America, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the United States Virgin Islands, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, and any other territories or possessions over which the United States exercises sovereignty. The territorial waters of the United States can sometimes extend out to 24 or 200 miles depending on the matter in question; see 33 CFR 2 or UNCLOS for further information.


Navigation Rules FAQ

Canada has many exceptions to Colregs as well. They only apply within our territorial limits. As an example, our modification to rule 25 is



> Notwithstanding paragraph (e), in the Canadian waters of a
> roadstead, harbour, river, lake or inland waterway, a vessel of
> less than 12 metres in length proceeding under sail when also
> being propelled by machinery is not required to exhibit a conical
> shape, apex downwards, but may do so.


It does not matter what flag you fly or what nation certified you. It matters what waters you are in. Outside of territorial waters, the International rules apply.



> A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by
> machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical
> shape, apex downwards.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

"If the marina is in US territorial waters, no shape is required under 12 meters. On the high seas, where there are not many marinas, a shape would be required."


Jack you are correct, but the US claims rights out to 200 miles. I only been farther out then that just a few times.


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## JimHawkins (Aug 25, 2006)

bubb2 said:


> Do you know they drive on the wrong side of the road also.


Now that this conversation has devolved to the standard Sailnetters have come to cherish, I think it's time for a little story.

I was riding on a train in England, and in my compartment were an English gentleman, an English Lady, and a couple young students. On the empty seat next to her, the lady had placed her small poodle. An American walking the hall stopped and inquired "Is this seat available?" pointing to the seat occupied by the small animal.

"WHY CAN'T YOU SEE MY LITTLE FLUFFY IS SITTING THERE?" the owner responded, rather more loudly than I thought necessary.

The American moved on, but some few minutes later returned, and said "I'm sorry M'am, but this seems to be the only seat left on the train. Might I sit there?".

"MY LITTLE FLUFFY IS TIRED AND NEEDS HER REST, SO STOP BOTHERING US!" she hollered.

The American left, but soon returned. "M'am, I'm tired and sored, I've been up all night travelling, and this is the only seat left on the train. Would you please move your dog so I can sit down?" he asked, the strain evident in his voice.

"MY FLUFFY CERTAINLY ISN'T SITTING ON THIS FILTHY FLOOR!" was her response.

The American reached over, picked up the dog, opened the window and dropped her out, then calmly sat down in the now vacant seat and closed his eyes. The Englishman, having quietly observed the entire affair, accosted him. "You Americans," he said, "You do everything wrong. You drive on the wrong side of the road, you hold your fork with the wrong hand, and now you've gone and thrown the wrong ***** out the window!"


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

bubb2 said:


> Jack you are correct, but the US claims rights out to 200 miles. I only been that far out just a few times.


Only economic claims may extend 200 miles.



> (a) With respect to the United States, including the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, Guam, American Samoa, the United States Virgin Islands, and any other territory or possession over which the United States exercises sovereignty, exclusive economic zone means the zone seaward of and adjacent to the territorial sea, as defined in §2.22(a), including the contiguous zone, and extending 200 nautical miles from the territorial sea baseline (except where otherwise limited by treaty or other agreement recognized by the United States) in which the United States has the sovereign rights and jurisdiction and all nations have the high seas freedoms mentioned in Presidential Proclamation 5030 of March 10, 1983.
> 
> (b) Under customary international law as reflected in Article 56 of the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, and with respect to other nations, exclusive economic zone means the waters seaward of and adjacent to the territorial sea, not extending beyond 200 nautical miles from the territorial sea baseline, as recognized by the United States.


Sovereign waters are 12 miles.



> Territorial seas of the United States are 12 nautical miles from the baseline of the United States of America, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the United States Virgin Islands, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, and any other territories or possessions over which the United States exercises sovereignty.


 from my previous post.



> (a) With respect to the United States, the following apply-
> 
> (1) Territorial sea means the waters, 12 nautical miles wide, adjacent to the coast of the United States and seaward of the territorial sea baseline, for-
> 
> ...


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Jack, again I don't disagree with you. But the Coast Guard can board vessels with in the " economic zones" and issue citations. That was signed into law by Reagan. But for the sake of this conversation, none of this applies outside US controlled waters.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

bubb2 said:


> "If the marina is in US territorial waters, no shape is required under 12 meters. On the high seas, where there are not many marinas, a shape would be required."
> 
> Jack you are correct, but the US claims rights out to 200 miles. I only been farther out then that just a few times.


Man, that statement has been like pulling teeth.

Apology accepted.

Just to clear up some of your other confusion, the waterways controlled by the "International" Rule are those outside the COLREGs demarcation line, marked on charts as a dashed magenta line. That demarcation line can be very close to shore, for example in Narragansett Bay, RI the demarcation line crosses the mouth of the Bay. As your J24 passes fifty yards outside Newport Neck, you are operating under International rules. Better have your dayshape ready.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

sailingfool said:


> Man, that statement has been like pulling teeth.
> 
> Apology accepted.
> 
> Just to clear up some of your other confusion, the waterways controlled by the "International" Rule are those outside the COLREGs demarcation line, marked on charts as a dashed magenta line. That demarcation line can be very close to shore, for example in Narragansett Bay, RI the demarcation line crosses the mouth of the Bay. As your J24 passes fifty yards outside Newport Neck, you are operating under International rules. Better have your dayshape ready.


NO Apology, We are talking about USCG rules. The line of demarcation is the end of the USCG inland rules and start of the USCG International rules. Out to 12 miles or any other US controlled waters. If you are operating in US territorial water the USCG rules apply. If you are in the middle of the Atlantic ocean the USCG rules don't apply, and I never said they did. But in US waters be they inland or International the USCG rules are the ones you use. USCG rules only apply in USCG jurisdiction. All we been talking about is USCG rules, so if you are trying to infer that I was saying the USCG rules all apply over the world, I have not.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

bubb2 said:


> NO Apology, We are talking about USCG rules. The line of demarcation is the end of the USCG inland rules and start of the USCG International rules. Out to 12 miles or any other US controlled waters. If you are operating in US territorial water the USCG rules apply. If you are in the middle of the Atlantic ocean the USCG rules don't apply, and I never said they did. But in US waters be they inland or International the USCG rules are the ones you use. USCG rules only apply in USCG jurisdiction. All we been talking about is USCG rules, so if you are trying to infer that I was saying the USCG rules all apply over the world, I have not.


Your posts seem to cover miles of irrelevant and pointless ground.

Try this concept:

USCG International Rule = COLREGS

Period.

International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

*Territorial Limits*

There is some confusion about what rules apply where.










From Wikipedia (are inline with my understanding)



> Territorial waters, or a territorial sea, as defined by the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea[1], is a belt of coastal waters extending *at most twelve nautical miles* from the baseline (usually the mean low-water mark) of a coastal state. The territorial sea is regarded as the *sovereign territory of the state*, although foreign ships (both military and civilian) are allowed innocent passage through it; this sovereignty also extends to the airspace over and seabed below.
> 
> The term "territorial waters" is also sometimes used informally to describe any area of water over which a state has jurisdiction, including internal waters, the contiguous zone, the exclusive economic zone and potentially the continental shelf.





> The contiguous zone is a band of water extending from the outer edge of the territorial sea to up to 24 nautical miles (44 km) from the baseline, within which a state can exert limited control for *the purpose of preventing or punishing "infringement of its customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations within its territory or territorial sea*". This will typically be 12 nautical miles (22 km) wide, but could be more (if a state has chosen to claim a territorial sea of less than 12 nautical miles), or less, if it would otherwise overlap another state's contiguous zone. However, unlike the territorial sea there is no standard rule for resolving such conflicts, and the states in question must negotiate their own compromise. The United States invoked a contiguous zone on 24 September 1999.





> An exclusive economic zone extends from the outer limit of the territorial sea to a maximum of 200 nautical miles (370.4 km) from the territorial sea baseline, thus it includes the contiguous zone. *A coastal nation has control of all economic resources within its exclusive economic zone, including fishing, mining, oil exploration, and any pollution of those resources. *However, it cannot prohibit passage or loitering above, on, or under the surface of the sea that is in compliance with the laws and regulations adopted by the coastal State in accordance with the provisions of the UN Convention , within that portion of its exclusive economic zone beyond its territorial sea . Before 1982, coastal nations arbitrarily extended their territorial waters in an effort to control activities which are now regulated by the exclusive economic zone, such as offshore oil exploration or fishing rights (see Cod War). Indeed, the exclusive economic zone is still popularly, though erroneously, called a coastal nation's territorial waters.


The USCG can cite violations of the Inland rules, which are a domestic law, up 12 miles offshore. They can cite violations of sanitary laws up 24 miles offshore. They can cite fishing and other economic violations up 200 miles offshore.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

sailingfool said:


> Man, that statement has been like pulling teeth.
> 
> Just to clear up some of your other confusion, the waterways controlled by the "International" Rule are those outside the COLREGs demarcation line, marked on charts as a dashed magenta line. That demarcation line can be very close to shore, for example in Narragansett Bay, RI the demarcation line crosses the mouth of the Bay. As your J24 passes fifty yards outside Newport Neck, you are operating under International rules. Better have your dayshape ready.


Not quite.

The demarcation line running across the mouth of Narrangansett Bay is the territorial sea line, out from which the three mile, 12 mile, 24 mile and 200 mile limits are measured. My electronic chart 13218_1 shows it quite clearly labelled as such.



> Normally, the baseline from which the territorial sea is measured is the low-water line along the coast as marked on large-scale charts officially recognized by the coastal state. This is either the low-water mark closest to the shore, or alternatively it may be an unlimited distance from permanently exposed land, provided that some portion of elevations exposed at low tide but covered at high tide (like mud flats) is within 12 nautical miles (22 km) of permanently exposed land. *Straight baselines can alternatively be defined connecting fringing islands along a coast, across the mouths of rivers, or with certain restrictions across the mouths of bays.* In this case, a bay is defined as "a well-marked indentation whose penetration is in such proportion to the width of its mouth as to contain land-locked waters and constitute more than a mere curvature of the coast. An indentation shall not, however, be regarded as a bay unless its area is as large as, or larger than, that of the semi-circle whose diameter is a line drawn across the mouth of that indentation". The baseline across the bay must also be no more than 24 nautical miles (44 km) in length.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Jack, Fool
Page 11, USCG Navigational rules.

Guard is operating;
(o) "Inland Waters" means the navigable waters of the United States
shoreward of the navigational demarcation lines dividing the high seas from
harbors, rivers, and other inland waters of the United States and the waters
of the Great Lakes on the United States side of the International Boundary;
(p) "Inland Rules" or "Rules" mean the Inland Navigational Rules and the
annexes thereto, which govern the conduct of vessels and specify the lights,
shapes, and sound signals that apply on inland waters; and
(q) "International Regulations" means the International Regulations for​
Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972, including annexes currently in force for United States.

The Coast Guard is very Clear where it's rules apply, Please read above.
http://navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/mwv_files/NR_Files/COMDTINST%20M16672.2D_NavRules(Corrected).pdf


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Fool, After you posted the British Colregs a page or two back, I thought I might be speaking with a person that is sailing outside US waters and that would change the prospective for that person. 

I looked up your profile and see you sail in the Boston area. You also state that you have a Inland Masters. You should know the USCG rule book inside and out. I should not have to be spoon feeding you the rules. I am beginning to wonder how you ever passed your test. If you ever did!


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

*A request for clarification.*



bubb2 said:


> Jack, Fool
> Page 11, USCG Navigational rules.
> 
> http://navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/mwv_files/NR_Files/COMDTINST%20M16672.2D_NavRules(Corrected).pdf


Budd, Sailingfool

Starting on page 179 is a list demarcations. Am I reading this correctly?

Inside of the these demarcations the Inland Rules apply; outside the International Rules apply.



> § 80.01 General basis and
> purpose of demarcation lines.
> (a) The regulations in this part
> establish the lines of demarcation
> ...


This would mean that the Inland Rules do not extend to the 12 mile limit.

The Canadian modifications specify which waters apply, some only apply to the Great Lakes.

I also noticed that the ColRegs you quoted do not have 2003 amendments; including the addition of WIG's to rule 18.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Jack, Inland US waters are the Line of demarcation and shoreward. US International waters are out from there. Note they talk about annexed waters. I believe that is why they Patrol the economic zones more that 12 miles offshore.

If you go to the first page of the Link I provided. You should note it is up to date as of Oct 19, 2009 which is the most recent reference I could find.

Yes Jack, the Inland rules do not extend to the 12 mile limit. That "zone" between the line of demarcation and the 12 mile limit is where the USCG International rules apply. Past the 12 mile limit is the "high seas" However I not so sure that it does not extend in to the economic zones, but for this discussion it does not matter.

There is a "zone" offshore where USCG international rules apply, before high seas Colregs rules apply. That's all I been trying to get across.

http://navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/mwv_files/NR_Files/COMDTINST%20M16672.2D_NavRules(Corrected).pdf


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

bubb2 said:


> There is a "zone" offshore where USCG international rules apply, before high seas Colregs rules apply. That's all I been trying to get across.


USCG international rules are the International Rules for Preventing Collisions at Sea. (COLREGS) That is clearly stated on page 179.



> § 80.01 General basis and
> purpose of demarcation lines.
> (a) The regulations in this part
> establish the lines of demarcation
> ...


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

jackdale said:


> Not quite.
> 
> The demarcation line running across the mouth of Narrangansett Bay is the territorial sea line, out from which the three mile, 12 mile, 24 mile and 200 mile limits are measured. My electronic chart 13218_1 shows it quite clearly labelled as such.


Jack, no disagreement but I only see that line labeled as shown below.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

sailingfool said:


> Jack, no disagreement but I only see that line labeled as shown below.


You are correct. I stand corrected.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

bubb2 said:


> Fool, After you posted the British Colregs a page or two back, I thought I might be speaking with a person that is sailing outside US waters and that would change the prospective for that person.
> 
> I looked up your profile and see you sail in the Boston area. You also state that you have a Inland Masters. You should know the USCG rule book inside and out. I should not have to be spoon feeding you the rules. I am beginning to wonder how you ever passed your test. If you ever did!


Capt'n

sort of a cheeky comment, given your confusion about simple steaming dayshapes, what rules underly the USGC International Rules and in what waters those rules apply...no rocket science in any of that matter.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

jackdale said:


> There is some confusion about what rules apply where.
> The USCG can cite violations of the Inland rules, which are a domestic law, up 12 miles offshore. They can cite violations of sanitary laws up 24 miles offshore. They can cite fishing and other economic violations up 200 miles offshore.


Outside the line of demarcation you are under International Rules (ColRegs)
The Line of demarcation is along the highwater mark of the coast and where it crosses the entrances of bay, sounds and rivers.

So if you are Twelve miles off shore the USCG will be citing you for violations of the International rules.  
Note: The Inland Rules & ColRegs are in agreement 85% of the time. And you need to know where the departure in the rules are at. Mostly sound signals and the lighting of tugs pushing ahead, for an example.

Also have had the USCG board my vessel in International waters. _I was south of Cuba._ So the US economic zone did not come into play here.

And if you do sail into other countries waters, it pays to have the Sailing Directions of that Country so you can see where they have abridged the rules.

Check your charts of where you are sailing. For some areas of the coast line are under ColRegs and other sections are under the Inland Rules. And all of the state of Alaska are under ColRegs. While Hawaii and other island prosessions have lines of demarcations. 

So where you are at will determine the Rules you are sailing under. Pay attention as to whether or when you cross a line of demarcation.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

jackdale said:


> USCG international rules are the International Rules for Preventing Collisions at Sea. (COLREGS) That is clearly stated on page 179.


Yes, subject to the changes the USCG made and enforce in US waters.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

bubb2 said:


> Yes, subject to the changes the USCG made and enforce in US waters.


Bubb2,

You seem to have trouble following.. Jacks' comment about USCG International Rules is 100% correct and requires no clarification of any kind.

The clarification you think you need to offer is the definition of the USCG Inland Rules, which are ...well...what can I say...


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

bubb2 said:


> Yes, subject to the changes the USCG made and enforce in US waters.


Such as?


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

I know that WIGs are in the rules now...
But has anyone ever seen a WIG? 
Are they going to become a Rich man's toy?
Used as high speed ferries?
Are there any used commercially now? Where???


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

jackdale said:


> Such as?


Jack, that was what started this whole thing, was the sailboat exception in International rule 25.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

bubb2 said:


> Jack, that was what started this whole thing, was the sailboat exception in International rule 25.


The sailboat exception is in the *Inland* rules:



> -INTERNATIONAL-
> Lights and Shapes
> RULE 25-CONTINUED
> (e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by
> ...





> Vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by
> machinery. *Same for Inland except that a vessel of less than
> 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit the dayshape.*





> -INLAND-
> Lights and Shapes
> RULE 25-CONTINUED
> (e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by
> ...


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

jackdale said:


> The sailboat exception is in the *Inland* rules:


Amen!

If you had been on duty here back around post #17, we could have avoided everthing in between. I sure hope Capt'n Bubb leaves the field on this note.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Jack if you look under the pic on page 78, which you didn't quote above. 
78​-INTERNATIONAL-​Lights and Shapes​*RULE 25-CONTINUED​*(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by
machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape,
apex downwards.
Vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by
machinery. Same for Inland except that a vessel of less than​12 meters in length is not required to exhibit the dayshape.


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

one more time: *The same as,* refers to the size, orientation, and placement of the dayshape

_*except* that a vessel of less than_
_12 meters in length is not required to exhibit the dayshape., Refers to the_
display of the dayshape.(not required means you don't)

Rule 25 is the sailboat *Exception to rule 24.* When reading rule 25 you must keep in mind it is referring to rule 24. That is the reason for the wording *The same as, and except. *If you read rule 25 on its own you would not know what size of shape the Coast Guard calls for. You have to go to rule 20 to find that out.


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

the phase; Not Required. Means that you don't need to fly those signals, but if you want to you can. 
Another example is that 50 meters or more you are required to have two mast head lights, the after one higher than the forward one.
But what many people may not realize, is that if you are less than 50 meters, and if you so desire, you can install the after mast head light. And there are a few vessels in this world who are less than 50 meters and do have that after mast head light.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

bubb2 said:


> one more time: *The same as,* refers to the size, orientation, and placement of the dayshape
> 
> _*except* that a vessel of less than_
> _12 meters in length is not required to exhibit the dayshape., Refers to the_
> ...


Rule 25 is the sailboat rule in both COLREGS and Inland Rules. Rule 25 (both COLREGS and Inland) specify the shape



> a conical shape, apex downward.


Rule 24 makes no reference sailboats - they are all power driven vessels and tows.

Rule 20 does not specify the shape Annex one specifies that the colour and size.



> 6. Shapes
> (a) Shapes shall be black and of the following sizes:
> (i) a ball shall have a diameter of not less than 0.6 metre,
> (ii) a cone shall have a base diameter of not less than 0.6 metre
> ...


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

The possible shapes a Sail boat may possibly fly.
1. A Cone apex down. For when the *engine operating *and your sails are up.
2. An Anchor ball. For when *at anchor *near fairways.
3. Two black balls. For when your sails are ripped to ribbons and your sheets are wrapped around your propeller. *Not under Command*
4. Three black balls. For when you are hard* aground*.
5. Assorted *distress signals *you can hoist...provided that you still have a mast.


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## tap (Apr 1, 2009)

bubb2 said:


> one more time: *The same as,* refers to the size, orientation, and placement of the dayshape


I don't see the exact words, "the same as", anywhere in rule 25. The caption for the picture uses the words, "same for inland". Not "same *as*", but "same *for*". It seems the way to interpret the caption is, "_The above rule is the_ *ame for inland except that*_, under inland rules only,_ *a vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit the dayshape.*"

Why does the actual text of international rule 25(e) not contain any mention of the exception for vessels under 12m if there is in fact an exception? The inland rule 25(e) clearly contains an exception for vessels under 12m. Why isn't that same sentence in the international version?

Are you claiming the exception in the picture caption is meant to apply to the international rules? Clearly it's not, but even if you pretend the caption text is different and provides an under 12m exception under international rules, then you would be claiming that a critical part of the rule is only defined in the picture caption! Can you find any other caption that is the sole source of part of a rule's definition? Something that defines what vessels must or may display lights or shapes, or what shapes or lights they must or may display, and this information is not in the main text of the rule. I can't.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

tap said:


> Why does the actual text of international rule 25(e) not contain any mention of the exception for vessels under 12m if there is in fact an exception? The inland rule 25(e) clearly contains an exception for vessels under 12m. Why isn't that same sentence in the international version?


Countries are permitted to make national amendments to the COLREGs. In Canada they appear as modifications following the International rule. In the US they appear as parallel rules (not the nav instrument).

International COLREGs do not permit the modification as per Canadian rules or the exception under Inland rules. When using engine for propulsion with the sails up in international waters the inverted cone must be shown, regardless of the size of the vessel. Annex 1 (6c) indicates that smaller vessels may use smaller shapes.



> In a vessel of less than 20 meters in length shapes of lesser dimensions
> but commensurate with the size of the vessel may be used and the
> distance apart may be correspondingly reduced.


----------



## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

OK smart guys, then why is the exception even on page 78 under the International rule. If it was not there I would agree with you guys.

Then when you move to page 79. different wording, They are not the Same exception. If they were it would only need to be mentioned on the Inland page.


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## sailingfool (Apr 17, 2000)

bubb2 said:


> OK smart guys, then why is the exception even on page 78 under the International rule. If it was not there I would agree with you guys.
> 
> Then when you move to page 79. different wording, They are not the Same exception. If they were it would only need to be mentioned on the Inland page.


TAP answered your question as well as any Socrates ever will, words can only go so far.

I'd say the USCG editor creating the IMAGE description didn't think he needed to restate the full rule text for the image, after all, who wouldn't be smart enought to read the Rule itself?



tap said:


> I don't see the exact words, "the same as", anywhere in rule 25. The caption for the picture uses the words, "same for inland". Not "same *as*", but "same *for*". It seems the way to interpret the caption is, "_The above rule is the_ *ame for inland except that*_, under inland rules only,_ *a vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit the dayshape.*"
> 
> Why does the actual text of international rule 25(e) not contain any mention of the exception for vessels under 12m if there is in fact an exception? The inland rule 25(e) clearly contains an exception for vessels under 12m. Why isn't that same sentence in the international version?
> 
> Are you claiming the exception in the picture caption is meant to apply to the international rules? Clearly it's not, but even if you pretend the caption text is different and provides an under 12m exception under international rules, then you would be claiming that a critical part of the rule is only defined in the picture caption! Can you find any other caption that is the sole source of part of a rule's definition? Something that defines what vessels must or may display lights or shapes, or what shapes or lights they must or may display, and this information is not in the main text of the rule. I can't.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

bubb2 said:


> OK smart guys, then why is the exception even on page 78 under the International rule. If it was not there I would agree with you guys.


It is not an exception; it is a caption. Look at page 77 which also has a caption, with different wording.



> Then when you move to page 79. different wording, They are not the Same exception. If they were it would only need to be mentioned on the Inland page.


Of course it is different wording. This is the official language; the other is a caption to an illustration.

COLREGS have the same wording world-wide. That is why they are the International regulations.

From Canadian Collisions Regulations:



> RULE 25 RÈGLE 25
> Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars - International
> (a) A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:
> (i) sidelights,
> ...





> Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars - Canadian
> Modification
> (f) Notwithstanding paragraph (e), in the Canadian waters of a
> roadstead, harbour, river, lake or inland waterway, a vessel of
> ...


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

Jack, that wrong and I have address that in this thread. Countries can amend the Colregs rules and it is written in to the Colregs rules that they can due such.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

bubb2 said:


> Jack, that wrong and I have address that in this thread. Countries can amend the Colregs rules and it is written in to the Colregs rules that they can due such.


I do not doubt that.

In Canada the amendments are called modifications
In the US they are called Inland Rules.


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

bubb2 said:


> OK smart guys, then why is the exception even on page 78 under the International rule. If it was not there I would agree with you guys.
> 
> Then when you move to page 79. different wording, They are not the Same exception. If they were it would only need to be mentioned on the Inland page.


Bubb,

I think the reason for the language under the graphic on page 78 is to allow the illustration to serve for both pages 78 and 79. I would view the language in the caption as a summary of the COLREG and Inland Rules exception to the COLREG.

I've always interpreted this language to allow an exception to COLREG 25(E) while in inland waters. In other words, on Chesapeake Bay I may properly fly an inverted cone while motoring with sails up, but am not required to because our boat is less than 12m. If I exit the Chesapeake into the Atlantic, or get a boat larger than 12m, I would be required to display the steaming cone anytime while motoring with sails up between sunrise and sunset.

So I read this to say that the Inland exception for boats less than 12m would cease once we passed out of inland waters.

This misunderstanding (regardless of who is right on this one) goes to show the risk of oversimplifying, paraphrasing, or combining these regs into shorthand -- as the USCG and others have done. It's probably best to refer only to the rules themselves lest ambiguity be introduced by attempts to make them "easier" to understand.

Not to open a whole other can of worms, but my gripe with this particular provision (25(e), both Inland and Colreg versions) is that it has no business being located in Rule 25. It is dealing with a vessel that is by the very definitions of the Regs a motor vessel, but the rule is listed in the section describing Lights and Shapes for sailing and rowing vessels.

In my opinion, the conical dayshape rule belongs in Rule 23, and should be reworded to read: "A vessel being propelled by machinery also proceeding under sail shall exhibit...", instead of "A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit..."


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

For those you that doubt that these is not a international exception, I would ask you why then is not silence on page 78. 

If you move on to rule 26, you will lots of wording under the pic's that do not use words like EXCEPT because an exception does not exists in those rules, but when a exception exists it is pointed out, just like in rule 25.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

OK Budd

Please go to:

Rule 25: Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars

They also give instructions on how to read the rules:



> NAVIGATION RULES
> 
> While reading the Navigation Rules on this site, you should be aware of some formatting and layout conventions.
> 
> ...


 Source : Navigation Rules Online Layout

Please note that they actually use rule 25(e) as an example.



> RULE 25: SAILING VESSELS UNDERWAY AND VESSELS UNDER OARS
> 
> (a) A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:
> 
> ...


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

JohnRPollard said:


> Not to open a whole other can of worms, but my gripe with this particular provision (25(e), both Inland and Colreg versions) is that it has no business being located in Rule 25. It is dealing with a vessel that is by the very definitions of the Regs a motor vessel, but the rule is listed in the section describing Lights and Shapes for sailing and rowing vessels.
> 
> In my opinion, the conical dayshape rule belongs in Rule 23, and should be reworded to read: "A vessel being propelled by machinery also proceeding under sail shall exhibit...", instead of "A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit..."


John, I agree with you 100%. This rule does refer to motorsailing and not just motoring. but that is why I believe it has it's own rule.

I bought this rule in thread to make a point about how much a person studying on their own would miss out on the class room discussions.

When I was in my class the very discussion came up. Half the class saw one way and the other half saw the other way.

When this thread settles down, and people are more interested about learning than proving some else wrong, I will tell you what the USCG LT. Commander who was a guest speaker in our class had to say about this rule. He was the board that help write the revisions way back when after we adopted Colregs.

But I will tell one thing he said, and it proved to true here also. "It sure does get people looking through their rule book and that's not a bad thing."


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## bubb2 (Nov 9, 2002)

jack, you quoted the inland rule twice, there is no debate on the inland rule.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

*When in doubt read the instructions.*



bubb2 said:


> jack, you quoted the inland rule twice, there is no debate on the inland rule.


Budd

Read the instructions.

- If a paragraph or word is italicized, that means there is no corresponding paragraph or word in the other set of Rules. The set of Rules the paragraph or word applies to will be at the end of the italicized text and look like this: [Intl] or [Inld]

The material in italics is included in the Inland Rules, but is excluded in the International Rules.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

The complete Rule 25(e) from ColRegs (COLREGS)

"(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards."

No exceptions, no modifications.


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## tap (Apr 1, 2009)

JohnRPollard said:


> I think the reason for the language under the graphic on page 78 is to allow the illustration to serve for both pages 78 and 79. I would view the language in the caption as a summary of the COLREG and Inland Rules exception to the COLREG.


That's only reasonable explanation I can see too. If you look at all the other pictures, they always say, "same for inland" or "same for international" if the picture also applies to the other set of rules. In the cases where the rules differ and the picture would not apply to the other set, there is no "same for" text.

Rules 25(e) is the only one that I could find that has a "same for inland/international except ..." text. I think it's the only rule where there is an inland-international difference that isn't in the shapes or lights themselves, but only what size of vessel must display them. Thus the picture applies to both sets, but when the pictured shape is needed differs.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

tap said:


> Rules 25(e) is the only one that I could find that has a "same for inland/international except ..." text. I think it's the only rule where there is an inland-international difference that isn't in the shapes or lights themselves, but only what size of vessel must display them. Thus the picture applies to both sets, but when the pictured shape is needed differs.


Rule 30- has an exception

Rule 30

(a) A vessel at anchor shall exhibit where it can best be seen:

1. in the fore part, an all-round white light or one ball;
2. at or near the stern and at a lower level than the light prescribed in subparagraph (i), an all-round white light.

(b) A vessel of less than 50 meters in length may exhibit an all-round white light where it can best be seen instead of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule.

(c) A vessel at anchor may, and a vessel of 100 meters and more in length shall, also use the available working or equivalent lights to illuminate her decks.

(d) A vessel aground shall exhibit the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) or (b) of this Rule and in addition, if practicable, [Inld] where they can best be seen;

1. two all-round red lights in a vertical line;
2. three balls in a vertical line.

(e) A vessel of less than 7 meters in length, when at anchor not in or near a narrow channel, fairway or where other vessels normally navigate, shall not be required to exhibit the shape prescribed in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this Rule.

(f) A vessel of less than 12 meters in length, when aground, shall not be required to exhibit the lights or shapes prescribed in subparagraphs (d)(i) and (ii) of this Rule.

(g) _ A vessel of less than 20 meters in length, when at anchor in a special anchorage area designated by the Secretary, shall not be required to exhibit the anchor lights and shapes required by this Rule. _[Inld]

There is no illustration.

I just noticed that WIGs are included in the International Rules for Rule 18 but excluded in the Inland Rules

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navr...navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rules/Rule18.htm

Any ideas why?


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## Boasun (Feb 10, 2007)

I think that WIGs are as well hidden as Imps, Goblins and leperchauns.
Have you seen one??


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## JohnRPollard (Mar 26, 2007)

Boasun said:


> Have you seen one??


It's been a while, but I've seen a WIG more than once on Chesapeake Bay, in the vicinity of N.A.S. Patuxant River. I didn't catch his light configuration, though.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Boasun said:


> I think that WIGs are as well hidden as Imps, Goblins and leperchauns.
> Have you seen one??


Just pictures.

There are lots on Google images.


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

bubb2 said:


> When this thread settles down, and people are more interested about learning than proving some else wrong, I will tell you what the USCG LT. Commander who was a guest speaker in our class had to say about this rule. He was the board that help write the revisions way back when after we adopted Colregs.
> 
> But I will tell one thing he said, and it proved to true here also. "It sure does get people looking through their rule book and that's not a bad thing."


Your last statement is dead on. These discussions do lead to a better understanding of the rules. This rule led to a long discussion with a student in September. She was concerned that the Canadian modifications violated the International rules.

I am interested in what the guest speaker had to say. Things have been quiet for a day.


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