# Please Follow This Post



## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

THIS IS A MULTI-POST ACROSS THE FORUM.

PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT TO READ THE FOLLOWING THREAD:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...ed/43859-all-sailnet-members-please-read.html

THANK YOU,

YOUR MODERATORS


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

One thing that's always impressed me about SailNet is that it's mostly just like what that request asks of the community. From my first post I never felt intimidated, disrespected, looked-down-upon, etc. Can't say as I've seen anybody else treated any differently. Perhaps I've just been missing it.

And here's something I found pleasantly surprising (tho I suppose, on reflection, I shouldn't have): I took some time away from sailing and SailNet (wintertime in Michigan, boat on the hard--other interests took over), after only being a member here a short time. When I returned, some regulars wrote things like "Hey, were've you been?" and "We were wondering what happened to you." One or two even PM'd me, welcoming me back.

I've received plenty of help, here, an education and a good deal of companionship.

A terrific community here, IMNSHO .

Jim


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

CD...unfortunately it's not as simple and linear as you want it to be...or even pretned it to be..

The example of today was a sad one, and fiiting all in the same bag is, at least in my opinion unfare..once again someone, under the cover of the distance, confortably sitting in front of keyboard, someone no one knows who it is... stirred trouble, was offensive and did not get a "slap in the hand" as it should..instead...an APB was made, and all warned, guilty or not...
that is what i think is unfare..

Again, this place is not mine I am a guest here...just that..a guest...and this is just my opinion...

Just what I think....yes we are all equal...therefore correction is due equally..not biased...


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

CD/Cam,

As far as I can figure I made the last post before the thread was canned. 

Working on the basis that I am correct and that it was my post you found unacceptable then I have to say I am dumbfounded by your actions. 

I'd appreciate it if you would confirm that.


Regards

TD


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

I'm afraid I'm going to have to think on that one for a while. It is really setting the bar at a some what childish, elemetary school level... I'm going to sleep on it before commenting any further.


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## capttb (Dec 13, 2003)

It's still okay to tell the Catalina haters to "just bite me" tho' isn't it ?


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## camaraderie (May 22, 2002)

TDW...the entire thread was moved because it was spinning back into what we had just shut down earlier. Your post was not the issue.

Giu...I entirely disagree with your opinion on this...with respect. Even though there was some provocation...your post on the closed thread which was deleted was WAY over the top and deserved a personal ban from this site MORE than *any* other post made. At no time did you PM CD or me to ask US to put an end to it. Instead you made a totally profane and over the top post in response. Had I been on duty at the time this all occurred you would have been on a vacation. We are friends but I have responsibilities here and sometimes you go too far and complain too much for no just cause.


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## CalebD (Jan 11, 2008)

I suppose it is still ok to tell ALL MacGregor owner that their boats are crap too, or, just bite me is not an offensive reply. The fact is that you really need a fine sieve to figure out which MacGregor's are the motor boat models and which are not (26S and M are not motor boats i think?). I own neither but have sailed on the MG 26S which a friend of mine owns. 
My boat is from 1967 and is built very strong and at first the MG scared my a bit but it is fine for what it is and no condesencion is really being asked for by people posting who love their boats as you do yours (however small). 
Small, light boats are beautiful in their own ways that some of us lose sight of. I applaud CD's guidelines and hope that civility can prevail in all of our exchanges but I think that I know a little more about the human psyche and condition to know that quiet disagreement will prevail.  
What is being asked of you is to refrain from most, if not all, negative comments about others behavior, spelling, grammar and boat type and to ignore or report those that seem to be crossing 'a line of decency' instead of a parallel or latitude. 
I miss the contrite and forthright comments of the late Robert Gainer as he (to me at least) epitomized the gentleman sailor with plenty of experience under his belt without being pedantic or brow beating, even if he could have. CD's advise is well intentioned and I, for one, intend to follow it.
Sailnet is a great place in part because it is not sailinganarchy.com. Have you ever checked that website out? If you really want to flame people that is the place to do it. They don't seem to care who gets flamed and that is what you are due if you are in a flaming mood. I think that civility trumps being an A-hole any day of the week. 
I have perhaps been lucky not to have to 'ignore' anyones posts on this forum so far. 
It is important to remember that you cannot tell a persons political or religious views or their boat preference from their posts. There is no benefit to be gained by attacking anyone on this forum. Please bite your tongue when you want to shout out loud (the exception to this might be the 'Off Topic' threads).
Blow me.
Fair winds and following seas.


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## artbyjody (Jan 4, 2008)

Things did get over the top, in the thread but it was civil up to the constant insulting remarks by the new member. I have been forced on vacation for far less insidious manner and kinda surprised that member in question was not actually reprimanded in a way that most of us have been handled when new. 
I didn't see the last of the posts of the humor version, but on the original thread - some of the regular members did reach out and try to politely deal with the issue. 

As previously stated, member just comes for answers and that is all that is expected else if not what wanted to hear then so be it the writing of insults. I am sorry, but I will not change the manner I post to humor someone, as usually I try to post relevant information - and on occasion if not over the top a required AFOC comment here or there. But for the 90% part everyone that replied to the question asked tried to do so in typical fashions of the poster that replied. And most of the unwarranted comments were derived and direct response to typical SA style comments from the OP and the OP should of been temporarily locked out considering his behavior even after CD's comments to the thread.


But its good to be reminded why we are are online here as I appreciate it, the camaraderie (no not necessarily you Cam, the was in lower case - relax), and the amount of knowledge I get to glean from here. 

That is all from my perspective.


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

CalebD said:


> I suppose it is still ok to tell ALL MacGregor owner that their boats are crap too, or, just bite me is not an offensive reply. The fact is that you really need a fine sieve to figure out which MacGregor's are the motor boat models and which are not (26S and M are not motor boats i think?). I own neither but have sailed on the MG 26S which a friend of mine owns.
> My boat is from 1967 and is built very strong and at first the MG scared my a bit but it is fine for what it is and no condesencion is really being asked for by people posting who love their boats as you do yours (however small).
> Small, light boats are beautiful in their own ways that some of us lose sight of."
> 
> ...


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Thinking about it some more, my question is this: If someone comes on the site, asks a very poorly worded question, and then becomes sincerely abusive in his responses, exactly what is it you are looking for in terms of a response from us. It seems to me the members responses were no worse than some of your or CD's responses (which I totally support) when you've been unfairly attacked. Help me with this one.


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## chucklesR (Sep 17, 2007)

Okay, I've read it the post, and was a participant in both threads - I believe I was a voice of moderation, helpfulness and courtesy - even after I was told to piss on a lamp post; instead of firing back I appolozized for my lack of coffee and proceded to do research on the problem that any sixth grader with an internet connection could have done.

What your post did not address CD is that we are all responsible skippers of our boats - with an inherent responsibility to at least do a little basic research on our own before posting a question. New guys and old guys alike; and I count myself as new since I've not even been on the forum a year.


You guys are worth me having another stroke because of silly arguments. Do it all with a sense of humor and it gets easier. Oh yeah, and monohulls drag.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

teshannon said:


> Thinking about it some more, my question is this: If someone comes on the site, asks a very poorly worded question, and then becomes sincerely abusive in his responses, exactly what is it you are looking for in terms of a response from us. It seems to me the members responses were no worse than some of your or CD's responses (which I totally support) when you've been unfairly attacked. Help me with this one.


Just realized CD posted this so replace "your or CD's responses" with "your or Cam's responses".


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

camaraderie said:


> Giu...I entirely disagree with your opinion on this...with respect. Even though there was some provocation...your post on the closed thread which was deleted was WAY over the top and deserved a personal ban from this site MORE than *any* other post made. At no time did you PM CD or me to ask US to put an end to it. Instead you made a totally profane and over the top post in response. Had I been on duty at the time this all occurred you would have been on a vacation. We are friends but I have responsibilities here and sometimes you go too far and complain too much for no just cause.


Cam, without trying to be beligerant, and with the highest respect also, please alow me:

As you mention, you were not online, and I did talk to CD, but over the phone, probably that was my mistake.

The whole thing started with a thread (that you locked, not the one deleted, which was in off topic), where a memeber here asked a vague question, (something like what are these and a link to several ST series gauges), and therefore received vague answer...in the end, he was very incorrect to many of the good memebers here...and I saw that...some memebers such a TE, Chuck Sd etc....then, after a while, you come online, delete many posts from there, and lock the thread...he did not ask exactly what he needed and got answers to what he had asked, no more no less and they were quite polite...a few posts later (and please understand this memeber likes to go back and edit his posts as the thread progresses)..he comes back insulting all that had answered with silly remarks such as duhh etc...despite several attempts to help and reduce the descending effect..he continued

Later in the day, AND in the Off Topic, I started a joking thread where the similarities with the original thread were large...this thread kept going and was funny, until a friend of said memeber came on it, (the joking thread), and acused several memebers, in the quality of friend, informing us we're a "private club" bla bla bla, when we all know this friend of the friend was not online and did not see his friend's behave...I then responded that he was wrong, and his friend was indeed rather rude...you then deleted that thread..and wrte something like this thrad started as a jke but now I close it..I have no problems with it..

In the mean time, the original poster, stated a second thread, I believe still going, where he asks if the paddle wheel is not connected what doies the display say.

If you go there, you can see I posted post #2 there and answered him exactly what he wanted...I figured maybe the guy is having a bad day..

My wrong..he replies back with a remark such as I can't read or something...

It's then I posted the over the top remark, that in due time CD deleted and I spoke to him...

This is my side of the story as it happenend...we are all still friends here, that's what matters, but I am sorry to tell you, that you are right about me being over the top,for what I did appologize CD personally, but not right about other events that had happen during the day...actually ask Te or Chuck or anyone online if thius is not exactly what happened...

My point is, and note I am not complaining, just making my point..this guy was rude and unpolite and apparentely nothing happen, instead, the regulars get a slap in the hands, and a lecture on behaviour...that is my point...

Anyway....this is what I think, with respect also..you know I am a succer for a good debate...


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

CruisingDad said:


> Old Members, many of the newer members _*may feel intimidated by the strong core group*_. I compare it to a large party, where there is a tight circle of people laughing and joking around - and you need to stop them to ask a question. It takes a lot of courage to do that. Many people are nervous on the first threads anyways. *It will not take much to scare them away.
> *
> Good Lord knows many of the questions that you offer to respond to are things that you might feel are obvious. This might be due to your years of sailing experience (which they may not have). It could be that they are nervous about posting on the web for the first time. And _*it could be that they do not know enough to "even know how to word it correctly.*_" Be thougthful in your response, please. You do not know their temperment or trepidation. We are all different. We have all started with post number one. We all have raised our sails for the first time. We have all changed our oil for the first time. The list can go on...


I would hate to see the site become all "touchy-feely" but it is true that until someone hangs around for awhile, they may very easily take offense at a short or rude response to what they felt was a serious question.
It isn't hard to chide someone, gently, about their lack of research or poor grasp of terminology while still making them feel welcome.

_ A long time ago, a customer came into the shop where I was working and asked about a cunningham. I looked puzzled and told him that I didn't know what that was. He proceeded to go to the management and make it clear that he thought they hired a moron to work in their rigging shop. Then he was told by another employee, who was a sailing buddy of his that I had just sailed a 27 foot boat some 8000 miles around the country and was the employee of the month for the last two months running. 
I just wasn't too good on my terminology. Still aren't. Didn't know that a tuck was the same as an eye splice. At least in Portugal._

After someone feels at home, then it's not so critical to consider their feelings. 
Heck, SD is pretty tough on me but I quit taking offense a long time ago. 
I just consider the source.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

*I think it is a fair to ask that any poster do at least the basics in terms of researching their question, and the least they can do is ask a question that provides all the information relevant to what they're specifically seeking. 
*
Asking _"what instruments are the ones shown in these photographs?"_ can get a very wide group of responses... Asking "_Does anyone know what specific model instruments are shown in these photographs and whether they are still supported?_" would have probably gotten a much better, and less sarcastic set of responses.

Then, for the OP to go attacking people, who were responding to his question, although some of the responses were a bit sarcastic... is pretty uncalled for.

The forum members as a whole can't read anyone's mind, and if they've phrased or worded their question poorly or stupidly... that really isn't the forum's fault.

BTW, I think Gui's recap of the actual events is fairly accurate. This whole thing reminds me of another poster who posted a thread about buying a boat in mexico and then went ballistic when people didn't agree that it was a good idea.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Alex,
I just went and looked at that new thread by our friend you mentioned. Holy crap, it looks like he was not having a bad day yesterday, that's the way he normally is. It must be a fun life. Hang in there my friend!


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## trantor12020 (Mar 11, 2006)

I use to own a Mac26X. Got lots of negative remarks about it being a boat that neither motor well or sail well and is a chlorox bottle floating on water. Heck with it. I like it and that's good enough. Now I own a Hunter AND I still get people saying its badly made, poor quality blah blah blah... I'm not lossing sleep over it.


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## Pamlicotraveler (Aug 13, 2006)

I have been relying on Sailnet for a long time and love it. 

I don't live on here though and it is frustrating to come on here and feel completely out of the loop and not know what the hell you guys are even referring to. Was the thread deleted? 

I actually like to see a little drama on here every now and then.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

CD and Cam did what moderators are supposed to do and I can't argue with their decisions to lock and delete the "Instruments" threads. However, I have issues with what I view as inequities in their judgement.

First, there's an obvious double-standard as related to some very obvious "over-the-top" posts made by BOTH mods in various threads. These actions set the bar for the rest of us to follow. It was a contradiction to slap the hands of those whom were perceived as offenders.

Secondly, the obvious offender was the OP - for reasons stated by other members in several posts. I contributed (whether correctly perceived or not) to both threads as well. In the original thread, I posted a list of several quotes, previously made by the OP - all caustic and condescending in nature. I added no insults of my own and was very civil. I simply noted that he should use more respect when replying with others. My posts were deleted, but the OP's were left intact. 

This level of moderation is both unfair and inequitable.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hey, I think that was me... 

Now, do you know what a fraculator is??



knothead said:


> I would hate to see the site become all "touchy-feely" but it is true that until someone hangs around for awhile, they may very easily take offense at a short or rude response to what they felt was a serious question.
> It isn't hard to chide someone, gently, about their lack of research or poor grasp of terminology while still making them feel welcome.
> 
> _ A long time ago, a customer came into the shop where I was working and asked about a cunningham. I looked puzzled and told him that I didn't know what that was. He proceeded to go to the management and make it clear that he thought they hired a moron to work in their rigging shop. Then he was told by another employee, who was a sailing buddy of his that I had just sailed a 27 foot boat some 8000 miles around the country and was the employee of the month for the last two months running.
> ...


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

I worked 15 hours yesterday and missed all the fun. I always miss the go threads. Just have to quit my job.


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## Pamlicotraveler (Aug 13, 2006)

OK - I found the thread. I didn't think it was that big a deal...just a slack question and some short tempered, (probably deserved) responses. I thought someone would have called the other Hitler or Bin Laden. But the worst attack I saw was calling someone an SA - which I guess either means Sailing Anarchist or Sailing ***hole and I didn't know which...

Cam and CD...Yes there are a few heated threads, but 90% of stuff on here is helpful to someone. Its a great forum and I do appreciate you guys being moderators!


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

This is a sad testament to the quality of Denby's life. 


denby said:


> I worked 15 hours yesterday and missed all the fun. I always miss the go threads. Just have to quit my job.


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## Pamlicotraveler (Aug 13, 2006)

By the way, what's this? It's on my boat


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## denby (Feb 21, 2007)

sailingdog said:


> This is a sad testament to the quality of Denby's life.


Yes it sucks being me. The hotter it gets the more I work. I'm not able to get to my boat for three weeks.  do to work schedule.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Pamlicotraveler said:


> By the way, what's this? It's on my boat


That's a fraculator, didn't you see SD's post! Wake up man.   BTW, I was annointed the SA but I didn't take offense since many other people call me that.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

Ah hah, so _that's_ what triggered CD's plea.

My prior comments notwithstanding, I'm going to have to agree with some of the others, here. The member in question has a join date of the same month and year as I, yet _somehow_, *and by his own admission* he manages to repeatedly tweak people. In two different threads, in the course of as many days, he asked... well... let's us just say "poorly worded" questions. The first surely looked like it could've been a joke, and was responded-to by some in that light. The second got a serious response from one of our most knowledgeable and helpful members. In both cases the OP got snarky with the respondents.

I don't know what transpired in the OT sub-forum. But if this whole thing is because of the treatment of the one member in those two threads: Sorry, but I'd have to say this guy did a damn good job of bringing it on himself. Not necessarily by posting poor questions, but by his snarky follow-ups.

Jim


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

> By the way, what's this? It's on my boat


You made me look at your profile Pamlico . . . now I have a serious case of boat envy. I toured a Shannon 43 under construction in Bristol a few years ago - very nice indeed.


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## MrRagu (Apr 1, 2008)

From a newbie.
I don't know what the thread was all about, but I hope the board gets back to normal at some point and that we can all agree to disagree. I have never sailed, but have dreamed about it for years. Please spare me all the "it's more work than you realize to get the rewards it brings". I am not such a simpleton that I have an idealistic view of it. As an engineer, the idea of raising sails and engineering movement on the water fascinates me. I love water and the ocean...its domain where we are just visitors subject to what she dictates. I hope that one day I have a boat and that those here will be ready and willing to help me on my long journey of information gathering. In the mean time, I am learning all I can to build a strong foundation. I have this board and most of its post to thank for that as I learn the difference between a ketch and a sloop.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

MrRagu,
Welcome to Sailnet and I hope you realize your dream, it's a good one. As to this board getting back to normal, what makes you think this is not normal?   


MrRagu said:


> From a newbie.
> I don't know what the thread was all about, but I hope the board gets back to normal at some point and that we can all agree to disagree. I have never sailed, but have dreamed about it for years. Please spare me all the "it's more work than you realize to get the rewards it brings". I am not such a simpleton that I have an idealistic view of it. As an engineer, the idea of raising sails and engineering movement on the water fascinates me. I love water and the ocean...its domain where we are just visitors subject to what she dictates. I hope that one day I have a boat and that those here will be ready and willing to help me on my long journey of information gathering. In the mean time, I am learning all I can to build a strong foundation. I have this board and most of its post to thank for that as I learn the difference between a ketch and a sloop.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Given that all was going pretty much as usual, and that most of the attacks were in response to being attacked in the first place... the MODs might want to think about what the common factor in triggering the hostile threads was... it wasn't Gui, ChucklesR, TDW, TEShannon, or any of the regulars from what I saw.


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## MrRagu (Apr 1, 2008)

Thanks for the welcome and I don't know...lack of experience, I guess. I love to jab and take jabs, but is seems there may be some thin skin around here. I fully expect my first boat to be called a piece of crap by somebody around here.

As to other "normal" things, my wife thinks I am crazy for wanting to do this. I got seasick on a pontoon boat in the bay at South Padre, TX. However, that is not a fair conclusion. We were with the kids and she had me videotaping for dolphins. I told here most would get sick looking through the camera while bobbing around.



teshannon said:


> MrRagu,
> Welcome to Sailnet and I hope you realize your dream, it's a good one. As to this board getting back to normal, what makes you think this is not normal?


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

CD, Cam, Jeff, .... with all due respect, I slept on it.... and I still think it is crap. (If anyone wants to remove me for that thought or any other, feel free. I have a life outside of sailnet and can easily spend my time else where.) What is being asked is for all of us to revert to childish elementary school behavior. We are only supposed to say nice things and if someone else says something that might hurt our feelings we are supposed to tattle on them. That type of format is, like too much of society, pandering to the lowest common denominator. It allows the weakest member of the "forum" to dictate the actions of all.

I suspect this change of format (call it whatever you like) is very likely a move to allow Sailnet to try and increase its advertising rates by being able to say it has 12 katrillion members and no one ever gets upset and leaves. In reality what will happen is that the quality of the forum will degrade to the point that the number of hits on this site decreases and the member who actually contribute will spend less time here. Instead of have a forum, what is being proposed is a list of classified ads. Good luck with that. A forum does tend to take on a life of its own and the moderators/host are certainly within their rights to try and controll that. Control it too much and you end up like Scuttlebutt, not enough and you have SA. Sailnet has always been the middle ground. What is being told to us now is that this forum is going to shift to the left more. Why? *"...many of the newer members may feel intimidated by the strong core group...."* That core group is exactly why they came here in the first place.* "Many people are nervous on the first threads anyways. It will not take much to scare them away. "* Is it better to have every person that ever looked at the site stick around and stay as a member, or to have a healthy functioning forum with regular contributing "anchor" members? When I am away from Sailnet for a while of work or vacation, it is a little hard to get back into the swing of the forum because of the things that have taken place while I was away. After doing some reading and catching-up with threads it is pretty easy to jump in. My experience isn't any different than that of a new member, it just doesn't take ma as long to get up to speend because I already know many of the people here and to ignore SD-. It cannot take a new, intellegent member long to figure that out. If it does, do you really want them in the first place? (Or is it just about numbers?)

I will contend that ALL members owe a responsibility to the others to be polite and helpful where they can. However, when that doesn't work the forum tends to self-police. Can that get carried away? Sure, and when it does deal with that specific incident, don't reduce the entire forum to the lowest of its members. I for one think that is wrong and have no plans in changing my conversations on this forum. If the forum changes, I make the decision to stay or go. I think if the attitude of pandering to a few people with their feelings on their sleave may very well mean that more of them stay around, but at the cost of others that will leave. If I say something that you feel I should be banned or "sent on vacation" for, so be it. If I'm not here, I'll be somewhere else. Besides, I'm guessing that getting banned from Sailnet is likely to make someone that much more welcome as SA.


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

BTW- Welcome MrRagu. I think youhave described how most people started sailing. (age varies) I doubt you are going to get any negative feedback for following your dream and don't think anyone will call you first boat crap(unless it is a Mac).


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## TheFrog (Oct 25, 2007)

I am mostly an observer here with few posts. I watched the original thread unfold yesterday but missed the succeeding threads. I have to say the OP acted poorly. One of the reasons why I like getting my virtual sailing fix via Sailnet is the humor. Yes, there is a circle of frequent posters, most of whom have already replied to this thread. Yes, a new guy feels like an outsider. But, as a novice I can truly say that I feel comfortable that I could pop in at any time and ask any question. If I write it well, I am confident that I will get multiple answers. If I write it poorly, I will get poor answers. Same as a computer - garbage in, garbage out.

I don't Sailnet to loose the wry sense of humor that many of the prime contributors (including the mods) exhibit. Yes, when I was new it rubbed me the wrong way a couple of times and I hit our friend for Portugal with a neg rep (if he wants to get back at me, he can PM me and I will send him my photo). I think there is a wonderful community here, more than needing to control the humor, I think the most important skill we all need to have is learning to walk away. Let the argument drop or take it to PM. The more we do that, the more we can retain the biting humor without the mods having to step in and act like the police.

I like this place for what it has been, keep up the good work and let the inflamatory guys like the OP from yesterday rot.


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## MysticGringo (Oct 9, 2006)

This is not the first time that a forum has run into these sorts of issues. I am not sure anybody has found the right formula for dealing with it. Regardless, a forum is owned/run by the mods, who make the rules... yet doesn't exist without its members. We create a micro-society of sorts, or maybe the right term is a sub-culture, where, like in meat-space society, there are rules, and we all agree to follow them for the most part. Sometimes, people can't operate in that society, and thus leave it, or get told to leave it.

Anyway... I am a relative noob when it comes to sailing, and stuff. I know I have asked some stuff that some members here have slapped their heads and yet restrained themselves from making me feel like a fool, and I greatly appreciate that. I think it has to do with the way I ask my questions though... even if I haven't done any research first.

To that... while it might not be the best way to do something... sometimes this place is the first place that I start my research on something. Usually I search... but sometimes, I just ask. Thats obviously what this guy did. Even I think his question was a bit... lacking... and did actually deserve a bit of poking at with a stick. To which, he's obviously not the type to sit back, and wonder how he could have worded that differently, but assumed everyone else was in the wrong. Honestly, the original poster caused the escalation which only got worse.

Then, the ball's rolling, and it sets this sort of thing up. Which, is actually very healthy for a society like this. Perhaps new people will learn what not to do, and some older members who are maybe a little too comfortable get a little wakeup call. Different opinions are healthy for this place... and it sucks to moderate that, because any time a mod said something that another member might have thought crossed the line gets recalled at a time like this. Sucks for the mods... which is why I wouldn't mod a forum ever.

In the end, I undoubtedly know less about sailing, and boats than the guy who asked the question, yet I have never been flamed here. Why is that? Because the people here are genuinely interested in helping others out, and enjoy watching people learn, and grow.

Gui's not going to leave... he's an addict, and provides enough comedy and interest that is a part of the core of the group. The guy with the question (and sorry I can't recall his name) may never come back. Its a little sad, but oh well. While certain rules are written, there are other unwritten rules in this society which need respect, and those include properly formatted questions, and non-hostility if you get some jokes at your expense. Maybe he can't choose to live in this society, and seeks his answers elsewhere.

And... for the record... when Gui started the off-topic post, it was obvious where that was headed. It was a bit too soon, and a bit too obvious. Perhaps a more subtle off-topic humor thread would have atleast taken longer to degenerate.

As for fairness of treatment. No doubt that some older members have crossed lines before, and not been banned, or whatever. Its normal. A new member usually gets treated a little more strictly till the boundaries are established, and they get comfortable with where they can push, and where they shouldn't. I think that older members (in terms of time, and number of posts) should be allowed to get a "Hey, don't do that again" PM, and a deleted post, while others might get the ban from similar posts. Thats society.

OK... I have said too much, and I wasn't even involved. Regardless, this sort of thing is always healthy for a community, in cyber or meat space.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Just ignore T34c... he's crazy anyways... and it depends on what Macgregor you get. The MacGregor 65 is quite nice from what I understand. IIRC, they also made a nice catamaran for a short while.



T34C said:


> BTW- Welcome MrRagu. I think youhave described how most people started sailing. (age varies) I doubt you are going to get any negative feedback for following your dream and don't think anyone will call you first boat crap(unless it is a Mac).


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

Sounds like I missed all the fun.  

As a "medium term member" (not a newbie, not quite part of that core group) I can tell you that it is hard to transition from being someone who popped in for information to feeling like you are part of the core group. It is easy to be misunderstood when teasing someone when there isn't a long history.

I was born in Alabama. I pull my little reneck wannabe yacht behind an old car. I know the sailing terms for most of the stuff on my boat, but not all of it and certainly not a lot of the more advanced things I don't have. I have mostly been a dinghy sailor and can generally get where I want to go and back to the ramp okay, but don't win races or have my rig tuned perfectly. If I took it personally anytime someone said something about Bama, people who won't spend much (guilty), get on the water without knowing all that much (guilty), etc, I would have left in disgust a long time ago. You just have to assume most of it is good natured and what isn't is just some guy making noise on the net (like I am now  ).

I learn a lot here. If I am not careful, I may become educated.


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

How'd you put sails on a Ranger Bass Boat?



arbarnhart said:


> I pull my little ******* wannabe yacht behind an old car. I know the sailing terms for most of the stuff on my boat, but not all of it and certainly not a lot of the more advanced things I don't have. I have mostly been a dinghy sailor and can generally get where I want to go and back to the ramp okay, but don't win races or have my rig tuned perfectly. If I took it personally anytime someone said something about Bama, people who won't spend much (guilty), get on the water without knowing all that much (guilty), etc, I would have left in disgust a long time ago. You just have to assume most of it is good natured and what isn't is just some guy making noise on the net (like I am now  ).
> 
> I learn a lot here. If I am not careful, I may become educated.


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

I will rewspond to this shortly. I have a number of things to say and make public. Please let me read through the rest of the comments.

- CD


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## T34C (Sep 14, 2006)

sailingdog said:


> Just ignore T34c... he's crazy anyways... and it depends on what Macgregor you get. The MacGregor 65 is quite nice from what I understand. IIRC, they also made a nice catamaran for a short while.


See, SD- clearly needs ignoring, he put "nice" and "catamaran" in the same sentence.


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

You all are worst than a bunch of little girls!  

I like Sailnet, and am one of those pesky newbies to sailing. Generally in my other Internet forum worlds I'm the cause of most of the drama and have played the mod role so I know both sides of it.

Be fair, have fun, help out one and all and try not to piss in too many peoples cereal bowls (key word is "too" many). It's an Internet forum about a subject matter people are very passionate about, expect some drama. Such is life.

Strong core group, such are most forums. Why people come here in the first place. Sailnet seems to be a medium between the wild sailing forums where anything goes and the ultra boring ones. It's a happy medium, and a hard medium to hold. It's easy to left anything and everything fly or to lock down anything and everything- it's hard to use judgement and split the difference.

Have fun, keep the mods on their toes (but with a respectable smile) and help the newbie out when you can. The mod job does suck, but those that also do it choose in their free will to do it.


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## TrueBlue (Oct 11, 2004)

Being a moderator, especially in a volunteer role - such as with CD Cam & Jeff_H, is a thankless job with few rewards . . . other than satisfying masochistic tendencies. (G)


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## TSOJOURNER (Dec 16, 1999)

sailingdog said:


> How'd you put sails on a Ranger Bass Boat?


Rangers are for sissies; real fishermen only use Lowe jon boats or pirogues made from stolen pallets (never mind that most places give them away).

The funny thing about this is that I am actually participating in a discussion elsewhere about motor choices for my boat (the N17). Because it has a planing hull and is light, some people beef up the motor bracket and go a little larger to get it on plane (doesn't take much). I referred to one guy's modifications as a "mini Mac" as a compliment, believe it or not. I have pretty much decided against doing anything like that for mine, BTW. I rebuilt a little Cruise-N-Carry motor someone gave me. It's a light weight 2 stroke air cooled engine (thas right - a chain saw motor - yeah buddy!). It pushes it around okay (it will get me from the ramp to the channel without running into your boat unless I owe you for saying something mean to me on the Internet  ), but isn't my long term answer.


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## Alden68 (Mar 21, 2007)

Gas in over $4 gallon, I'm selling my boat to get married and Sailnet is going soft..............I think I just heard the 4 Horsemen ride by.....nope, I just stuck my head out the window, it was only a bunch of locusts


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

I remember the post and the OP was a douche in that thread just dripping with attitude. That's just the way I see it, regardless of who likes it or not.


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## knothead (Apr 9, 2003)

Alden68 said:


> Gas in over $4 gallon, I'm selling my boat to get married and Sailnet is going soft..............I think I just heard the 4 Horsemen ride by.....nope, I just stuck my head out the window, it was only a bunch of locusts


Maybe you could rename the boat after her and call it a wedding gift. 
She would have to let you keep it then.


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## timebandit (Sep 18, 2002)

T34C said:


> BTW- Welcome MrRagu. I think youhave described how most people started sailing. (age varies) I doubt you are going to get any negative feedback for following your dream and don't think anyone will call you first boat crap(unless it is a Mac).


Man you Tatan guys are tuff. 

They still build those boats (Tartan) or did they go the way of the Rambler? 

Rick


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## tweitz (Apr 5, 2007)

I am also a middling member -- been around for a while, post from time to time, but not one of the "in crowd." It is hard to believe the OP generated so much reaction. It seems to me the moderator's job is to moderate. The discussion here sometimes gets rather personal and obnoxious. I personally can't stand the grammar and spelling and terminology errors that recur, but almost never comment because it is boring for everyone else to listen to my rants, which accomplish little except to generate a ridiculous string of comments. It is also embarrassing when I then make a typo. I love the sharing of knowledge that this site can give, and the news that floats around. It is less civil than others I also use, and far more civil that Sailing Anarchy. Still, an awful lot of the sarcasm and humor does not work very well when read on a screen, as opposed to said in conversation, and a lot of people are incredibly brave behind a keyboard. I agree with the OP. I think that there are probably quite a few lurkers or newbies whose skin is less thick than the in crowd and who abandon the site, or who don't ask real questions they may have, which is a loss for them and equally well a loss for the rest of us.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

CharlieCobra said:


> I remember the post and the OP was a douche in that thread just dripping with attitude. That's just the way I see it, regardless of who likes it or not.


C'mon now, CC, stop holding back. Tell us how you _really_ feel 

Jim


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

All Members,

I am trying to organize my thoughts here as I type this, so I ask for a little slack on any misspellings or if it is hard to follow. But I think it is time to clear the air. These comments are my own and do not neccessarily reflect the opinions of the other mods. However, since I posted the thread, I will make the stab.

Giulietta is an awesome sailor and has provided more to this forum than maybe 100 others combined. He knows much more about sailing (esp performance sailing) than anyone I know. He knows boats. He cares about people and takes a personal interest in those around him. He invites people to stay at his house, cruise with him, talk to him on the phone. What more can I say? When my wife and child were hit by the 18 wheeler, he was the FIRST person to call me (before even my partners). Did you know he offered to come down? Asked me if I need money? He wanted to know what he could do to help... and meant it. All of this was VERY sincere. Thank you my friend, thank you. I have never forgotten that. Incidentally, members, I have never had the pleasure of meeting Alex or his beautiful wife or his awesome kids. My loss. But as far as Sailnet, it really is a better place because of Alex.

TDW posted here, so I would like to say somthing about him too. He really is a funny guy. He can stand his ground and make his poistion well known, but will also shake hands at the end of the day. He also takes a genuine interest in helping others on this site. I find him knowledgeable and outspoken. But for those that know him, you will like him. I would sure look him up in Australia if I ever landed there.

T34 gives me a harder time than about anyone else here - but it is all in good fun and he and I have had many great offline discussions about boats or just harrassment. He is genuine and a patriot of his country. He will call a spade a spade. His opinions are well thought out and with merit. I like the guy.

Teshannon is thoughtful and considerate. He may not be the most knowledgeable person on this site, but when he gives information he generally knows it. He is one of those people that you would not mind leaving your kids with - like a great neighbor. He has a great personality and is very friendly and genuinely cautious about ever offending anyone.

Sailingdog may come across rough, and often he is, but he answers more posts than Camaraderie and I do put together. Look at how much of his time he devotes to the people here! I am not sure any member has HALF the posts he does. He puts thought into his answers and is a wealth of knowledge - if nothing else, to know where to get the answers.

Bestfried... really is a Bestfriend. Look at what he has done for SimonV! Maybe I am wrong, but I believe the guy flew to his house and stayed with him. THEY HAD NEVER MET BEFORE! He helped him in ever step of the way on finding his boat. He tracks his progress and keeps us all informed. Bestfriend is also an active member in helping others. He makes great replies and gives great advice. And unlike many others, he will admit when he is wrong - on an open, public forum. No one might know the differece. I have seen many others post incorrect information here and have not made apologies. Would you? Have you?

Sailaway21 is someone I would call a personal friend too. I have had MANY offline conversations with him. He has given me advice on the many personal issues I have had to deal with surrounding my wife and child' wreck. Sailaway21 is an absolute patriot of our country - period. Like his views or not, you can bet if push came to shove, that he would defend this country in a hearbeat. He also has a wealth of information on commercial ships. He knows the ways of the sea better than I do. He takes considerable effort to make sure his posts are well thought out and full of information. The guy does not make this stuff up or read it on the internet, he knows it.

I have left off MANY people on this site that I would like to write about... but am running out of time and space. If I have left you off, please do not feel offended. It does not mean I like you any less or any more.

Why am I writing this? Because these are just a FEW of the regulars that come her. These are just a FEW of the people I respect and call friends. They make an enormous contribution to Sailnet and have helped more people than I could even begin to count. How many of you have actually posted a thread without a response from one of these members? Few, I would guess.

I think it is important to know a little somthing about the house you visit (or live in, as it may be for many of us). That is what makes up Sailnet - the people that come here. It is a good group of people that mean well.

I was once one of that core group. I hope that I still am or they still see me that way. But I was asked by Sailnet to take on a Moderator status and help regulate the forum. I will not speak for Jeff or Cam, but I will say that it is VERY difficult. How do you seperate yourself from people you admire and like as much as I like these guys (and gals.... DJ and Eryka for example)?? How can you participate and have fun, provide helpful information, make an inviting place for new members to want to come and feel welcome, be a friend to the core members, and police everything above? How can I tell a friend I think he/she was wrong? How can I not? How can I tell a new member that they deserved what they got - and refraim from nailing them too?? The answer... I don't know.

That is the quandry I am in. Does that make sense? I want to play a strong, moderating role with Sailnet while maintaining my friendships, growing the site, being approachable to new members, and doing so while being impartial. As a moderator, I have to be - even when I want to be otherwise.

I realize that there is no way I am going to make everyone happy. I cannot be all things to all people - neither can Sailnet. As such, I am making a distinct effort to settle matters before they get out of hand and deal out judgement as I feel it is merited.

*If you are still following this, let me tell you how I work - in general. This is my personal policy, as a moderator. I do not speak for Cam or Jeff. *

In general, when things get out of hand (or hopefully before they do), I try to remove any and all offending threads. I put a "nice" warning or caution in the thread. I try to redirect. In many cases, depending on the thread, I will PM those that I feel are out of line and discuss my feelings. I welcome their responses - where appropriate. But I keep it offline. Many arguments are simple missunderstandings and have been corrected that way. Others are not.

I have found other threads or responses that really set me off. I will delete the thread(s) and I will jump their case offline, and sometimes online where merited. In these cases, I am rarely very nice and they are generally taking a vacation (often permanent). I have NO PATIENCE with viciousness and harsh personal attacks. I GENERALLY do all of this offline, but it is often with as much furor and resentment as many members do online. I can give you MANY cases of this happening (and you might even guess on which members), but I do not feel it is appropriate. I feel it is the neccessary role I must play behind the scenes to keep this place relatively clean and with a lack of hostility.

By the many responses I got to this thread, I feel there was a missunderstanding. There is no way you could know what I do offline. But do not think for a moment that I do not take care of you and make a very appropriate response. This includes both new members and old members alike - though I primarily am referring to our core group. Many of my friends feel that I am being one-sided in my approach. That is not the case at all. You simply have to trust me, Cam, and Jeff to resolve the matter. That does not mean I expect ANY of you to take something visious and turn the other cheek with a smile. All I ask is that you come to me and get me involved. Because when someone gets ugly, I really can have the final word.

*I would like to ask a favor here, from everyone. If you feel, after reading this, that there are things I can do to make this place more hospitable and enjoyable (both to new and old) - tell me. If you have a problem with me or my strategy - tell me. Work with me. Communicate with me. PM me. I will give you a number to call me on the phone if you wish. This is NOT, NOT, NOT my Sailnet. It is yours. It is Giu's. It is TrueBlue's, and JohnPollards, and Halekai's, and Mystic ******, and The Frog's, and all of the many other folks that come here and make this place successful. I am simply the guy that stands at the door of this house and lets you in, or tells you when to go to your corner or leave.*

You are the folks that make Sailnet. Help me to help you make it a better place. I will do my very best to do so.

Sincerely,

Brian


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## CharlieCobra (May 23, 2006)

Hell Brian, we all stub our toes now and again. You'll hear no b#tchin' from me on the job you guys do, thankless task though it is.


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

timebandit said:


> American Sailboat Hall of Fame - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> My boat is listed here, is yours?
> 
> ...


Yes, mine is

Seriously, what happened?.......the short version is fine.

Did some Mac owner get in a tizzy?


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## Giulietta (Nov 14, 2006)

Wow...CD....was that an automatic "ass kissing generator" you used??

I use this one a lot SEE HERE, but it only does complaints...I use it a lot for SA and Cam...


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## T37Chef (Oct 9, 2006)

*Agreed...*



TheFrog said:


> I think the most important skill we all need to have is learning to walk away.


I have had to learn to walk away from conflict the hard way, matter of fact I have had to sleep in a cold brick cell because I didn't.

If you ignore the ____, it will go away eventually


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## Freesail99 (Feb 13, 2006)

I am of the opinion that sailnet is not broken, therefore it should not be fixed.


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

tweitz said:


> I am also a middling member -- been around for a while, post from time to time, but not one of the "in crowd."


Ok, here's the secret of being in the "in crowd" on SailNet, near as I can tell: *There ain't no "in crowd."* That's right: The so-called "in crowd" does not exist on SailNet. Yes, there are some that have established close ties between one another. There are a bunch that recognize one another "on sight," as it were. There are some whose contributions have gained them extra respect (which is just as things should be). But there's no clique, near as _I've_ been able to tell.

I refer you back to my original follow-up in this thread.



tweitz said:


> It is hard to believe the OP generated so much reaction.


He was behaving like an utter jerk, as I see it. I am not at all surprised by the reactions.

Most people, if they say or do something kinda dumb, and have to have it pointed out to them, will respond with "Oh. Duh. Sorry" and proceed to rectify the mistake. But not Our Friend. Nope. When he got poked a bit for posting something kinda dumb, he poked back--as if _his_ failure was the fault of others. Then, subsequently, he got all smart-mouthed with somebody that tried to give him a legitimate (and, quite possibly correct) answer.

I can think of certain popular web forums, not so forgiving as SailNet, that would've been about this >< close to having him walk the plank by about now.



tweitz said:


> It seems to me the moderator's job is to moderate.


It is. But guess what happens if they over-do it?



tweitz said:


> The discussion here sometimes gets rather personal and obnoxious.


C'mon, now, we're all adults. Anybody that can't stand a bit of ribbing had best stay home with the blinds drawn.



tweitz said:


> It is less civil than others I also use, ...


 What sites would _those_ be?!?! I've been on the 'net and in a lot of on-line forums for... well, for quite some time. SailNet is about the most civil on-line venue in which I've _ever_ participated, bar none.



tweitz said:


> Still, an awful lot of the sarcasm and humor does not work very well when read on a screen,...


You do realize, I hope, that a lot of that is between the "in crowd" people, it's all in good fun, and everybody involved knows it, right?



tweitz said:


> as opposed to said in conversation, and a lot of people are incredibly brave behind a keyboard.


That accusation may well apply in many forums, but SailNet is realtively unique in that there's very little anonymity. Much of what anonymity there is is easily pierced. For example: How long d'you suppose it would take somebody even vaguely interested to put together "SEMIJim," "S.E. Michigan," "Abracadabra," "Lake St. Clair" (which I've mentioned numerous times) and "sail club" (likewise)? I also know of several members here that are within a short sail, and even shorter drive, from me. One of them recently held a dock-side BBQ, to which everybody here was invited.

So, sorry, but the "keyboard commando" accusation won't fly far, here.



tweitz said:


> I agree with the OP. I think that there are probably quite a few lurkers or newbies whose skin is less thick than the in crowd and who abandon the site, or who don't ask real questions they may have, which is a loss for them and equally well a loss for the rest of us.


It may happen occasionally that an honest, genuine question doesn't get the answer it deserves, but I sure haven't seen it. The in-duh-vidual that started all this, OTOH, well... ISTM he _asked_ for it.

Jim


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## sailingdog (Mar 19, 2006)

Seems to be the general consensus among everyone but the mods.



CharlieCobra said:


> I remember the post and the OP was a douche in that thread just dripping with attitude. That's just the way I see it, regardless of who likes it or not.


Rick-

Tartan's still sort of making boats, but the new ones are having some serious technical difficulties. The company is in trouble, and may be going the way of the Rambler soon.



timebandit said:


> Man you Tatan guys are tuff.
> 
> They still build those boats (Tartan) or did they go the way of the Rambler?
> 
> Rick


It is one thing to ask a question that has some genuine merit, is well thought out and you've done the research on and not found an answer.... _it is a totally different thing to ask a vague, poorly worded question and then start sniping at the people who answer because they couldn't read your mind and tell you the information you wanted to know, but didn't actually ask about_.

Asking what anchor would be best for your boat, when you don't mention what boat you have, what area of the world you're sailing in, or what kind of sailing you do and expecting a good, relevant answer, is pretty stupid. As they say in the IT industry... GARBAGE IN ===> GARBAGE OUT.

Most of the core posters on Sailnet, like Gui, Halekai, myself, etc, are genuinely interested in helping people... or we wouldn't be here. Some people make it much harder to help them than others.



tweitz said:


> I am also a middling member -- been around for a while, post from time to time, but not one of the "in crowd." It is hard to believe the OP generated so much reaction. It seems to me the moderator's job is to moderate. The discussion here sometimes gets rather personal and obnoxious. I personally can't stand the grammar and spelling and terminology errors that recur, but almost never comment because it is boring for everyone else to listen to my rants, which accomplish little except to generate a ridiculous string of comments. It is also embarrassing when I then make a typo. I love the sharing of knowledge that this site can give, and the news that floats around. It is less civil than others I also use, and far more civil that Sailing Anarchy. Still, an awful lot of the sarcasm and humor does not work very well when read on a screen, as opposed to said in conversation, and a lot of people are incredibly brave behind a keyboard. I agree with the OP. I think that there are probably quite a few lurkers or newbies whose skin is less thick than the in crowd and who abandon the site, or who don't ask real questions they may have, which is a loss for them and equally well a loss for the rest of us.


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## Sapperwhite (Oct 21, 2006)

was it a "circumnavigator type situation"?

did the thought giving monolith raise it's ugly head again?


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## SEMIJim (Jun 9, 2007)

CD,

In answer to your closing question: I've said it before and I'll say it again: You and the other mods are doing a fine job, IMO. I wouldn't change a _thing_ about SailNet, not one, single thing.

Jim


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

GBurton said:


> Which thread generated all this?


I will reply to your PM shortly.


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## Jeff_H (Feb 26, 2000)

*Geez folks; Leaving the "Who shot Johns" and explanations of "justifyable mayhem" aside, what Cam, CruisingDad and myself, as moderators, are trying to accomplish with this thread is to make it clear that the tone of the dialogue has ramped up beyond what is acceptable under the terms of the forum. All that we are asking is for everyone to play nice. Nothing more.....*

*We don't care how we got here, or why someone said something impolite or which was percieved as obtuse or otherwise. All that we care about is that Sailnet remain a site that is civil and welcoming; that Sailnet remain a pleasurable place for sailors of all skill levels and experience to come to exchange ideas, and stories and to learn.*

*At one time or other we have all crossed the line, or been perceived to have crossed the line on less than civil discourse. Cruisingdad started this tread not to target anyone but because (and you can blame it on the moon, or anything or anyone that you may chose) for some reason the tone of the discussions have moved towards the wrong side of the rude&abrasive-ometer. *

*Whether you or we like it or not, Cam, Cruisingdad and I have ended up as the marshals in this virtual frontier sailing town, and all that we are asking is that you leave your 'attitude' at the portal and come in with an open mind. *

*If someone really bugs you, let it go. Your life, family, and livelihood does not depend on you defending your honor, but the life of this forum depends on you being able to maintain your civility. T'aint all that hard folks.....So let it go already...*

*Respectfully,*
*Jeff*


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## Cruisingdad (Jul 21, 2006)

*Shut Down*

I have shut this thread down and deleted many of the posts. Most of the posts have done nothing wrong, so take NO offesnse. It was simply spiralling out of control.

This was meant to calm things down, not stir them up again.

- CD


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