# Crimping versus Soldering



## Cruisingdad

I am not trying to bring up another very heated argument on this board, but I would like to tell anyone still soldering that almost without exception, EVERY soldered joint on the V-42 we have is corroding and failing. It may have taken close to 20 years to do it, but we did not find these issues on ANY of the crimped joints... NONE. 

If that is not a first hand testimonial to crimp over solder, I do not know what is.

- CD


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## Maine Sail

*Cd..*

That has been my experience too. I've re-wired my fair share of boats over the years and without question the soldered joints are the ones to fail, corrode or both.

The other thing I've found is the wires tend snap just above the solder joint. This is probably due to solder creep which makes the wire more brittle because it's now, in a sense, a single conductor wire and has lost it's multi-strand flexibility.

I do a two part process, crimp /heat shrink with a proper marine grade adhesive lined heat crimp terminals usually made (or sourced) by Anchor, FTZ or AMP.. This become a hermetically sealed joint..


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## sailingdog

I've seen soldered joins fail, and often far sooner than a properly installed crimp with adhesive-lined heat-shrink will. As Halekai has pointed out, they're far more subject to fatigue than a properly crimped join would be, since the solder does effectively convert the nice flexible strands into a single solid stiff wire. 

A bunch of hints to making a crimped connection that will last. 

First, use a good ratcheting crimping tool, which will allow you to apply fairly consistent pressure on all of your crimps. Non-ratcheting crimpers will not give a consistent amount of pressure on the crimp.

Second, use good marine-grade crimp terminals—non-marine grade ones will corrode out rather quickly. 

Third, use good marine-grade tinned wire. Marine grade wire is pre-tinned, and has more, finer strands, for greater vibration fatigue resistance.

Fourth, use a decent adhesive-lined heat shrink tubing. The adhesive lining is what really makes the connection waterproof.  Don't skimp on this step.


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## rkfitz

I second sailingdog. The only reason for soldering wires is because marine grade tinned wire is not being used, and it is an attempt to protect the copper wire. Tinning the wire yourself also leaves it stiff and subject to stress and vibration fatigue. In addition, standard pvc insulated wire is not waterproof. A quick immersion in water (I don't know where from, maybe your bilge pump is shot or you're sinking) could very quickly open a live wire internally.


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## sailaway21

And none of the old threads discussing this wouldn't have been adequate to revisit the issue?


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## TSOJOURNER

I have no solder joints, all crimped with heat shrink. SD, I like your idea about a ratcheting crimpimg tool. I will get one.


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## sailingdog

Yea of little faith...you're doubting the great and all powerful Cruisingdad... 


sailaway21 said:


> And none of the old threads discussing this wouldn't have been adequate to revisit the issue?


Damn... I said that with almost a straight face.


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## TSOJOURNER

Somewhere I read that when you solder wire, you degrade the insulation due to heat, which causes it to become caustic and start the corrosion process.. I never use solder on the boat except for electronics repair, or tinning ton-tinned wire (instrument wire is notoriously bare copper)


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## sailingdog

Degrading the insulation doesn't probably make it caustic...but it probably does make it more porous, leading to moisture getting in and kicking off the corrosion process. 

Some insulation might be PVC-based and as such, heating it might release Hydrogen Chloride gas...which when added to water becomes Hydrochloric acid.


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## maccauley123

I have heard of brush on electrical tape being recommended over heat shrink tubing. Because it goes on as liquid it fills in the connection very well and when it hardens creates an exception seal.

Any experience with this?


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## Maine Sail

*Tim,*

Tim,

I've used it and you need to consider a few things.

1) Liquid electrical tape gives minimal strain relief

2) It's very messy

3) It's thicker than you would think and does not flow into nooks and crannies the way one would assume it should.

4) Adhesive lined heat shrink, when done correctly, actually forces, from the shrinking/squeezing action, the adhesive into the nooks and crannies better than Liquid Electrical Tape from my experience.

5) Adhesive lined heat shrink will give you real strain relief and move the flex point out away from the crimp which should add far better longevity.

Battery World Portland or Ed's Batteries are the places to buy all your marine wire, connectors and adhesive lined heat shrink tubing & batteries in this area!

Even with my deep Hamilton Marine commercial discount and my West Marine / Port supply commercial discount Battery World still blows them away price wise for connectors, tinned wire, batteries and heat shrink!

I re-wired my battery bank last summer and replaced every cable right back to the engine and alternator. Total cost for all supplies including the wire, heat shrink & battery lugs was $104.00 at Battery world. The same gauge wire, lugs and heat shrink at WM, with my discount, was going to be over $225.00....


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## maccauley123

Thanks Maine Sail, excellent information, especially on where to get my supplies. I did not even know I could get the marine grade wire anywhere other than WM or Hamilton.


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## Maine Sail

maccauley123 said:


> Thanks Maine Sail, excellent information, especially on where to get my supplies. I did not even know I could get the marine grade wire anywhere other than WM or Hamilton.


Don't go telling everyone though or they'll figure out they could make more margin.. They mostly sell direct to boat yards and such but you can buy there too.. It is not a retail operation though so know what you want when you walk in...


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## sailingdog

I'd have to second what Halekai said. The trick is getting ADHESIVE-LINED heat shrink tubing, which is a bit tougher to find than regular heat shrink tubing.


maccauley123 said:


> I have heard of brush on electrical tape being recommended over heat shrink tubing. Because it goes on as liquid it fills in the connection very well and when it hardens creates an exception seal.
> 
> Any experience with this?


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## SailorMitch

maccauley123 said:


> I have heard of brush on electrical tape being recommended over heat shrink tubing. Because it goes on as liquid it fills in the connection very well and when it hardens creates an exception seal.
> 
> Any experience with this?


Not with that method, but I know a guy who pulls shrink wrap over soldered joints and then heats it to seal the solder. Will be interesting to see how that method holds up. In the meantime, I also go with a good crimp.

CD -- thanks for the new discussion on this topic! New info always comes out with a fresh start.


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## xtatico1404

The reason why crimping is by far the superior method of making a good electrical connection is that a properly compressed connection (that means, the right tool, for the right size connector and the right pressure applied to the crimp) will make the wires & connector pretty much become one. Some people refer to this as a "cold weld".

This is what a proper crimp looks like if you cut it half
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/GL.jpg

As you can see, the wires & connector become one. It eliminates all voids between wires, thus keeping any air out. This prevents corrossion, which is the #1 problem in electrical connections. Corrosion increases the resistance of the connection, which leads to overheating.

Check out this article "This is NOT a crimper"...good information
http://www.terminaltown.com/Pages/Page7.html
This one also has a lot of good information.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html

While soldering does "seal" most of the connection area, mechanically, it is a fairly weak connection, especially with all the vibrations on a boat, which add to crimping being better.


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## sailingdog

Another real problem with soldering and why the ABYC code recommends crimping over it is that in the case of a circuit or wire with high electrical loads, the solder can often heat up enough to soften... combine that with wires that are vibrating... you can get a loose hot live wire inside a boat... that's bad. A crimped connection, done properly, isn't ever going to come apart.


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## xtatico1404

I personally do not have experience with the liquid tape stuff. Comming from the electrical industry, I can tell you that no one uses that stuff on the residential, commercial, industrial or utility business, so I would have my doubts as to how good it is.

Yes, adhesive lined heat shrink is the way to go. It is great, it will seal the heck out of a connection, but just be careful not to burn the heat shrink. The stuff is quite expensive at WM, and please keep in mide that it is also size specific, so use the correct size or it will not seal.


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## TSOJOURNER

Liquid tape is very good for certain applications.


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## sailingdog

Dipping the ends of a cut rope come to mind, but not much electrically... have any examples???


RickBowman said:


> Liquid tape is very good for certain applications.


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## erps

Nutz!. I've been soldering connections on the last two boats figurin' I was going the extra mile. This thread is going to save me some time and grief.


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## sailingdog

Sometimes, the easier, cheaper, simpler way to do things is also the right way to do things.


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## Cruisingdad

Regarding this thread, it has actually been a while since this was dicsussed. Bringing up these topics periodically is good for discussion because it allows others that did not follow the thread at the time or were not members at the time to enter into the debate. That being said, although I don't mind another discourse on soldering versus crimping, it was not why I brought this up. It was to point out a very specific example of what happens to soldered connections on a boat. THis is a first hand, twenty year old "beta test", on the effects of soldering: it does not hold up and does not last. Given that many of the other connections were original crimps, and they did not fail, I can see no reason to solder on a boat and feel ABYC should change from not reccomending to soldering, to flat out rejecting it.

If I recall correctly, and I do not have the rules in front of me, I believe it says something like, "The use of soldered joints is not reccomended on any vessel..."

I feel it should say, "The use of soldered joints will NOT be used on any vessel..."

Maybe my boat is only one example and not conclusive in determining the long term effects of soldering, but given the other testimonials, I feel it sure does not play in the favor of soldering joints, under any circumstances.

I will also point out that, although we had corrosion on either side of the joints (which I would almost guess came from "super heating the copper", though I cannot be sure), the most serious corrosion actually came from the joints themselves. THe solder had hairline cracks which had corroded and made the joint poor. In some cases, this joint had failed alltogether an you could bend the connection at that break.

Regarding liquid tape:

I have used it. THe term black snot comes to mind. I have used it to fill the back side of lugs that I have crimped to seal them off from air/moisture (the part that, after you crimp, would face the lug after you heat shrink... not sure if I am describing it correctly). I have also used it to paint on the threads of terminal connections as a type of electrical locktite to slow/prevent nuts from easily backing off. I think it does have its uses. However, I do not think it is in any way a substitute for heat shrink, and I absolutely cringe any time I have to pull it out. It makes a horrible mess.

Just my experiences.

- CD


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## hellosailor

Ah, come on CD. We both know that soldering can save 1/10th to 1/2 of an ounce over a proper crimped connection on each connection, and on a racing boat all those ounces add up and slow you down. So, they only last twenty years, by then it is an old tired racing boat ready for the glue factory anyway.[G]

Kinda like those double-layer Sailnet burgees. Great concept, but way too heavy to be flown on any competitive racer![VBG]


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## sailingdog

HS—

We're talking about CD and Catalinas... they're so slow the additional weight doesn't matter.  

CD—

BTW, the real corrosion problems are probably caused by the different metals that are used in the solder and galvanic issues between them, rather than the heating of the connection area.


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## US27inKS

I'll share with you a non boat related (but solder splice related) story. A guy brought his beautiful street rod into my shop. The problem was that the fuel pump would shut down intermittently. When I was finally able to duplicate the problem, I traced it back to a connection that he had very carefully made with a solder joint. The car hadn't been together very long and had very few miles, so vibration hadn't killed it. The solder joint looked very good, the wires were all tight and the solder was smooth and shiney. Every now and then, the current flow would just stop. I replaced the joint with a good crimp connector (I use the ones with glue filled heat shrink built on) and the problem has never been back.

So even if you do a REALLY good job soldering, it's still not as good as a proper crimp connection.


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## soulesailor

*I'm wondering...*

What causes a vibration so large that electrical wires would break off at the solder joint? Internal engine (which I don't have so I'm not too familiar with its vibration)? Sailing to windward for long stretches? Stuff banging into the wires? Seems like wires breaking due to vibration would be A LOT of vibration. Just wondering, haven't experienced this yet.


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## Danny33

Thanks for all this info everyone!
I was tought as a kid to use a non acid core solder..heat shrink tube . used this on heavy trucks ,machienery and trailers .Every trailer I ever built for light systems ..ect!

I have to rewire my mast and go with led lights for up grade ..might as well do it once ..Thanks 

Liquid tape > we use on the bottom of back packs to save the bottoms from getting worn out prematurly . works very good and just touch it up when its gets worn.


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## Cruisingdad

hellosailor said:


> Ah, come on CD. We both know that soldering can save 1/10th to 1/2 of an ounce over a proper crimped connection on each connection, and on a racing boat all those ounces add up and slow you down. So, they only last twenty years, by then it is an old tired racing boat ready for the glue factory anyway.[G]
> 
> Kinda like those double-layer Sailnet burgees. Great concept, but way too heavy to be flown on any competitive racer![VBG]


HS,

You crazy solar-sticker (my new name for you), real racers don't use wire at all. THey prefer the little hat with red/greenlights on top!!


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## Cruisingdad

soulesailor said:


> What causes a vibration so large that electrical wires would break off at the solder joint? Internal engine (which I don't have so I'm not too familiar with its vibration)? Sailing to windward for long stretches? Stuff banging into the wires? Seems like wires breaking due to vibration would be A LOT of vibration. Just wondering, haven't experienced this yet.


Boat in general vibrate. Even sitting at the slip with a strong wind whipping through the rigging will cause vibration. Start that crack-pot diesel (which is probably mounted right on the stringers, with or without rubber feet) and it REALLY vibrates. Multiply that times hours, days, years...

It is not something that will happen immediately. It happens over time. THese joints were between 10-20 years old. HOWEVER, that does not mean it took them 10-20 years to fail. They were likely already at the point of failure some time back. My guess is that they were already showing a lot of resistance and V/A drop. I suspect a nice storm offshore or anything else to put a good stress on the boat would have taken its toll on them. And incidentally, that is exactly when you DON'T want them to fail. All the more reason to crimp.

- CD


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## TSOJOURNER

Not just vibration, but occasional access to panels, or the occasional tug on the harness will cause enough mechanical fatigue in a solder joint to cause it to fail. Soldering requires a long list of prerequisite conditions to create a satisfactory joint, and even then, as mentioned you have created a solid strand vice multistrand. That alone is reason enough not to solder. You don't use solid wire on a boat for the same reason.


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## Stillraining

*Well I for one*

am glad you brought it up again..Its amazing what Im still learning after 50 years...I knew about cold welding in cable manufacturing and the like but this is the first time I have seen evidence of it being possible with crimp fittings...I must be doing them very wrong as you can pull mine apart without much effort..I have used then for years as what I thought was a slip shot replacement for a good soldering...I vacillate between whatever tool is handy to crimp with... however I cant say that the cheap 4.00 crimpers do any better job then a 4.00 pair of side cutters...but now at least I know why I should go buy a 30.00 crimper...Old dogs do learn new tricks...Thanks to everyone who posted especially the links to thoes sites showing propper crimps...


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## Freesail99

Stillraining said:


> am glad you brought it up again..Its amazing what Im still learning after 50 years...I knew about cold welding in cable manufacturing and the like but this is the first time I have seen evidence of it being possible with crimp fittings...I must be doing them very wrong as you can pull mine apart without much effort..I have used then for years as what I thought was a slip shot replacement for a good soldering...I vacillate between whatever tool is handy to crimp with... however I cant say that the cheap 4.00 crimpers do any better job then a 4.00 pair of side cutters...but now at least I know why I should go buy a 30.00 crimper...Old dogs do learn new tricks...Thanks to everyone who posted especially the links to thoes sites showing propper crimps...


It may not be the crimpers but the proper size connectors that you need to use.


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## Stillraining

*Oh I have always used*

the right size..albeit cheap ones..There is most likely half the culprit

Off topic...how do you guys get your quotes in that nice blue box?


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## TSOJOURNER

Stillraining said:


> Off topic...how do you guys get your quotes in that nice blue box?


click the quote button at the bottom of the post you want to reply to.


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## PBzeer

Still said:


> Off topic...how do you guys get your quotes in that nice blue box?


Or, to customize the quote, start with


anything you want said:


> ,what you want to quote, and end [/quote (plus the rear bracket)


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## Stillraining

*PBzeer*

Thats the one I needed...Not sure I understand but Ill play with it...Thanks


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## hellosailor

"but now at least I know why I should go buy a 30.00 crimper..."
More like $50 for the crimper. That would be a ratcheting one with removable/replaceable dies at the business end.

And, you need proper crimps as well. The cheap stuff at the auto store is junk. Real crimps are carefully designed and made on machinery that was not worn out and then sold to someplace in China. They are matched to SAE or AWG wire sizes, and include an inner seamless copper sleeve to grip over the wire. No inner sleeve? Then it is junk, not a proper crimp terminal.

With the right wire, a good crimp, and a good crimping tool, you should be able to wrap the wire around both hands and PULL and not have it come out of either side of the crimp. The wire should break first, if need be.


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## Cruisingdad

hellosailor said:


> "but now at least I know why I should go buy a 30.00 crimper..."
> More like $50 for the crimper. That would be a ratcheting one with removable/replaceable dies at the business end.
> 
> And, you need proper crimps as well. The cheap stuff at the auto store is junk. Real crimps are carefully designed and made on machinery that was not worn out and then sold to someplace in China. They are matched to SAE or AWG wire sizes, and include an inner seamless copper sleeve to grip over the wire. No inner sleeve? Then it is junk, not a proper crimp terminal.
> 
> With the right wire, a good crimp, and a good crimping tool, you should be able to wrap the wire around both hands and PULL and not have it come out of either side of the crimp. The wire should break first, if need be.


Yep. I give all my crimps the "tug test". Fail the tug test, and I start all over.


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## Stillraining

*Cheap insurance*

Quote=More like $50 for the crimper. That would be a ratcheting one with removable/replaceable dies at the business end./quote
Thanks for the details

Edit : Well that one didnt work..


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## PBzeer

Have to have the [ ] 's around quote, and after the = is who you are quoting (I didn't make that very clear before)

eg:


Stillraining said:


> then the quote, then just /quote inside the brackets


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## sailingdog

Actually, many of the proper crimp terminals have a seam, but it is brazed at that point.


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## PBzeer

I've had no problems with the Ancor terminals, and if you have a Home Depot that carries them, they are way cheaper there.


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## Stillraining

*I will try them*



PBzeerI've had no problems with the Ancor terminals said:


> Thanks, Have a HD close by.
> 
> Edit: Augh!!!!Bugger it anyway...


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## sailingdog

You need a "]" after the PBzeer and a "[" before the "/".


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## Freesail99

> I've had no problems with the Ancor terminals, and if you have a Home Depot that carries them, they are way cheaper there.


John, What department do you find them in ?

btw stillraining, I was showing off,lol Use the last "square" with the "writing" in it for quotes.


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## Stillraining

*Toooooooooooo*

much for this old loggerhead!!!


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## Maine Sail

Freesail99 said:


> John, What department do you find them in ?
> 
> btw stillraining, I was showing off,lol Use the last "square" with the "writing" in it for quotes.


A select few Home Depot stores, mostly in Florida, do carry a very small assortment of anchor wire and connectors. Unfortunately, none of the Home Depot stores in the North East, that I've been in, carry Anchor products.


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## US27inKS

These are the connectors I use in my auto shop. They're the best I've found, but you can't just go to the store and buy some. BTW the cost for these is about a buck a piece depending on the style of connector.

http://www.wurthusa.com/project/en/leftnavi/catalog/product.php?path=03.0141.jpg


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## SimonV

Cruisingdad said:


> Yep. I give all my crimps the "tug test". Fail the tug test, and I start all over.


But what if that tug test took the crimp to the 90% fail point.!!!!

Now seriously, what is a good brand or soldering iron. should a flux or flux off.


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## Stillraining

*Yeikes!!*



US27inKS said:


> These are the connectors I use in my auto shop. They're the best I've found, but you can't just go to the store and buy some. BTW the cost for these is about a buck a piece depending on the style of connector.
> 
> http://www.wurthusa.com/project/en/leftnavi/catalog/product.php?path=03.0141.jpg


Well...At least they have a built in heat shrink..


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## TSOJOURNER

As for the quotes, I just use the quote button, and then edit the text if I don't want all of it in there, of copy and paste multiple times before editing if I want multiple quote boxes. I find it's easier than trying to manually enter in the proper quote brackets.


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## Stillraining

*Thanks*

I simpler idea for a simple Man...


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## artbyjody

What I am getting from this is that quotes are important in the crimping process as well...

Another simple technique is to tie the corresponding wires together and then twist the heck out of the stripped portions and then electrical tape the heck out of it (with good marine grade tape of course)....it will survive the tug test but not many others...


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## Stillraining

*Yep*

Thats what I do when broke down at night lee shore or not....

Sorry for the public schooling of an old thick skulled loggerhead...


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## TSOJOURNER

artbyjody said:


> Another simple technique is to tie the corresponding wires together and then twist the heck out of the stripped portions and then electrical tape the heck out of it (with good marine grade tape of course)....it will survive the tug test but not many others...


I've worked on some houses where that was the thought also. The connection was so reliable, that they decided not to put it into a junction box, but just bury it behind the drywall.


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## artbyjody

werebeagle said:


> I've worked on some houses where that was the thought also. The connection was so reliable, that they decided not to put it into a junction box, but just bury it behind the drywall.


I have too - and will do it if in a pinch - but nah either the crimping or soldering - both actually if done properly with the right materials imho work equally as well... the problem with crimps is there is one moisture point ingress unless the heat shrink cover where the spade starts....it doesn't take much and the crimp will outlast the wiring any day as it doesn't suck moisture...my last post was merely in jest....


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## sailingdog

The one down in New Bedford had some of the Ancor electrical terminals, along with the supplies one would need to make docks. This is probably due to the importance of the waterfront and fishing industry in the area.

BTW, the brand is Ancor, not Anchor, which is what you've got too many of to begin with. 


halekai36 said:


> A select few Home Depot stores, mostly in Florida, do carry a very small assortment of anchor wire and connectors. Unfortunately, none of the Home Depot stores in the North East, that I've been in, carry Anchor products.


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## Freesail99

werebeagle said:


> I've worked on some houses where that was the thought also. The connection was so reliable, that they decided not to put it into a junction box, but just bury it behind the drywall.


Is that code ? I always thought if your behind drywall, your in a junction box. That is what I've always done.


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## sailingdog

Freesail, I believe I hear the local fire marshal calling your name.


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## Freesail99

sailingdog said:


> Freesail, I believe I hear the local fire marshal calling your name.


Why for putting wires into a junction box, rather then use a crimped connection as suggested ?


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## Maine Sail

sailingdog said:


> The one down in New Bedford had some of the Ancor electrical terminals, along with the supplies one would need to make docks. This is probably due to the importance of the waterfront and fishing industry in the area.
> 
> BTW, the brand is Ancor, not Anchor, which is what you've got too many of to begin with.


Yep honest sp. mistake do it all the time...


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## TSOJOURNER

Freesail99 said:


> Is that code ? I always thought if your behind drywall, your in a junction box. That is what I've always done.


By code, all electrical connections have to be accessible when the house is finished, and in a UL approved junction box. You can't just cover the box behind drywall, there has to be a removable cover plate. You also can't decide to add a cabinet in front of an outlet without cutting out the back for access to the outlet and the connections.


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## Freesail99

Thanks Charlie.


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## sailingdog

Freesail-

Charlie's nailed why I said the local fire marshal would want to be talking to you. 



werebeagle said:


> By code, all electrical connections have to be accessible when the house is finished, and in a UL approved junction box. You can't just cover the box behind drywall, there has to be a removable cover plate. You also can't decide to add a cabinet in front of an outlet without cutting out the back for access to the outlet and the connections.


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## sailingdog

That looks a lot like the crimper I keep in my main tool box at the house, which is made by Ancor.










I also have one of these Ancor crimpers aboard the boat, but it isn't as good IMHO.












halekai36 said:


> Yep honest sp. mistake do it all the time...
> 
> SD which ratcheting crimper do you use I need to replace mine and there are sooo many options? I currently have the Ancor ratcheting but am not totally impressed with the quality of the crimp.
> 
> I'm considering the Klein T1710.


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## sailaway21

I've not used the ratcheting type, although I could see some benefit to them in a tight space-that is, if you can get the head of them into said space! I've found the traditional Klein Pliers, the tool the company is most famous for and they're actually crimper/cutters, to be the most effective. You can see a photo here:http://www.tools-plus.com/klein-1006.html
If you're using the conventional strippers/crimpers you're going to have a quantifiable increase in life satisfaction by purchasing a pair. Available at Home Depot and electrical supply houses. Channel Lock makes a knock-off version as well.


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## Maine Sail

sailaway21 said:


> I've not used the ratcheting type, although I could see some benefit to them in a tight space-that is, if you can get the head of them into said space! I've found the traditional Klein Pliers, the tool the company is most famous for and they're actually crimper/cutters, to be the most effective. You can see a photo here:Klein 1006 Crimper-Cutter at Tools Plus
> If you're using the conventional strippers/crimpers you're going to have a quantifiable increase in life satisfaction by purchasing a pair. Available at Home Depot and electrical supply houses. Channel Lock makes a knock-off version as well.


Sailaway...

Unfortunately, that crimper you use is not designed or intended for use on insulated terminals such as those made by Ancor, FTZ or AMP. That tool is for non-insulated terminals... Just a heads up...


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## Sapperwhite

Crimp, solder, whateva. Get some Romex and wire nuts, a 12 pack, and call it a day.


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## Maine Sail

Sapperwhite said:


> Crimp, solder, whateva. Get some Romex and wire nuts, a 12 pack, and call it a day.


What no women ????


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## Sapperwhite

halekai36 said:


> What no women ????


Of course, who do you think is going to twist all that Romex and put on the wire nuts?


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## sailingdog

Also, ratcheting crimpers tend to give a much more consistent crimp, since the jaws won't release until the crimp reaches a set point.


halekai36 said:


> Sailaway...
> 
> Unfortunately, that crimper you use is NOT designed and is NOT intended for use on insulated terminals such as those made by Ancor. That tool is for NON-INSULATED terminals... Just a heads up...


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## sailaway21

halekai,
I'm curious then as to why Klein stamps on the side of the jaw, "ins" and "un-ins" adjacent to the two crimping jaws. One of the jaws makes a crimp while the other makes more of a swage. I prefer uninsulated terminals, where possible, adding shrink tubing after the crimp.

edit for more info:
I've found that anyone with decent hand strength can achieve the same results with out the need for ratcheting. Ratcheting cutting tools generally shine where larger diameters are being cutt or crimped. I'm not against them for the discussed usage, I've just never been less than completely satisfied with the Klein pliers.


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## sailaway21

For more on this cutting edge of technology topic, including important input from NASA as well as the Republic of Ireland, you can read here:http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21678&highlight=soldering

There is a great deal of good info amidst the passion.


----------



## hellosailor

Ancor brand terminals and crimps are carried in the Home Depots in the metro NYC area, in the "eletrical" supplies sections somewhere near the tools (locked up) and switches and tape. Although HD charges some of the highest prices I've seen for electrical tools and meters, and often doesn't have great quality. (Very disappointing.)

OK guys, now let's stop screwing around with crimping tools and start doing it the right way. First, you wrap some fine copper sheet over the two spliced wires. Then you lay about 1/16" of C4 or Semtex around the copper cladding, press in a detonator, and wire it back to the companionway. Once you've got them all set, hook up the power and WHAM all the wires are welded, very nicely, very quickly.

Or, you can buy the explosive crimping sleeves in the "Sears Really Really Special Tool Catalog" but you'll have to go behind the doors in the back room and show ID before they'll let you have one. The ones from Sears are pretty good, there's a microbattery and microdetonator with timer all built into it, for a one-shot use with no extra wires to run. [VBG]


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## xort

great, now we're gonna get monitored by homeland security


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## Stillraining

*Read it all Sway...*

Every post ...now you know why my wife is telling me I'm addicted to you guys...

Some good stuff there for sure...I think I have enough information to carry on from here...Thanks Guys...

Hay by the way Sway...I use to Drill for the black water..


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## cardiacpaul

_"great, now we're gonna get monitored by homeland security"_

Only for about 3 minutes.
Then the men in black will figure out we're ass's full of crap and ignore us. As it should be.All is right with the world.


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## Maine Sail

sailaway21 said:


> halekai,
> I'm curious then as to why Klein stamps on the side of the jaw, "ins" and "un-ins" adjacent to the two crimping jaws. One of the jaws makes a crimp while the other makes more of a swage. I prefer uninsulated terminals, where possible, adding shrink tubing after the crimp.
> .


I have no idea why and was only referring to the crimpers in the link you posted and the specs on those specific crimpers: http://www.tools-plus.com/klein-1006.html

*Highlights:

**Klein 1006 Crimper-Cutter*


*For crimping non-insulated solderless terminals*
Accommodates wire from No. 10 to 22 AWG
Specially hardened wire cutters in nose
Length 9-3/4"
Lifetime guaranteed ~ made in U.S.A.
My guess is that the ones you linked to are not the same as the ones you actually own??


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## sailaway21

halekai,
My error. I must be infected with the same virus as the sailnet store. (g) Yes, mine do have a jaw for both insulated and un-insulated and those are the red handled ones found at the Home Marina and electrical supply houses.


----------



## sailaway21

stillraining,
There is a good amount of info in that thread by some knowledgable souls. Glad to hear that you survived your venture into Anarchy and that you got out of drilling and found a life. (g)


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## rkfitz

Anyone try using dielectric paste on crimp on terminals? All of the wiring in my P323 is aftermarket, none of it marine grade. Rather than rewire, I thought I'd renew the connections, applying a light coating to the copper wire before crimping. I'll let you all know how it worked in a few years. By the way, I have and use both crimpers in my trade, but the ratcheting (or compound) crimper gives a far superior connection. I can pull apart most hand crimped connections with a couple of linesman's pliers, never been able to do it with a compound crimper.


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## hellosailor

"Anyone try using dialectric paste on crimp on terminals? "
Yup. SOP for me these days. I figure there's no way it can hurt and it ensures zero oxidation in there. Zero space for water. Gotta be better than a bare crimp. Just one thing: If you plan to use adhesive heat shrink OVER the crimp--you'd better go real sparingly on the paste.<G>


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## chjensen

Soldered joints failing is always due to improper technique,

This is the way to do it right and make soldered joints last.
-Use a heat shrink so the solder and flux doesn't run up the wire (under the insulation
Use good quality solder (with flux inside)
after you solder the wire - wash off all the flux residue with alchohol - this is a critical step as water+flux=acid and will corrode the wire quickly if left on.


----------



## sailingdog

While this may be true, you still really shouldn't be soldering connections on a boat for many other reasons.


chjensen said:


> Soldered joints failing is always due to improper technique,
> 
> This is the way to do it right and make soldered joints last.
> -Use a heat shrink so the solder and flux doesn't run up the wire (under the insulation
> Use good quality solder (with flux inside)
> after you solder the wire - wash off all the flux residue with alchohol - this is a critical step as water+flux=acid and will corrode the wire quickly if left on.


----------



## rhedrick

*Crimping*

I am a little late to this party but I have to agree with the proper crimping and heat shrink (versus solder, twisting, liquid tape) plus one more, I think important suggestion, related to the one response that I caught regarding the moisture point of entry where the heat shrink doesn't quite close up the gap between the spade (or loop), which is a very common problem. What I have done on well over hundreds of connections with no problems (15 years and counting) is to properly crimp, heat shrink, let cool and *then spray Boshield T-9* (in an areosol can) in those small openings (hold the connection vertical and let the liquid migrate into the joint for a few seconds). It is a moisture displacement liquid that also leaves a light waxy film on crimp/wire that will last probably as long as I live (after that, who cares). I go one step further on the large battery connections (although no gaps with the heat shrink completely surrounding the lug and wire cover - may be overkill but maybe not - depends on the quality/integrity of the heat shrink) and spray both the lug and wire before crimping, wiping off any excess T-9 that finds its way onto the exterior of the wire or lug with acetone and then heat shrink (easier to wipe off on the large wires). The heat shrink provides the strength and the T-9, the all important moisture displacement.


----------



## Maine Sail

*Re: Crimping*



rhedrick said:


> I think important suggestion, related to the one response that I caught regarding the moisture point of entry where the heat shrink doesn't quite close up the gap between the spade (or loop), which is a very common problem.


If you use a quality factory made heat shrink connector this will almost never happen. I've used perhaps thousands of these factory made heat shrink connectors at this point and I always inspect them after the termination is made and I've yet to see more than a very low percentage perhaps .2% had the gap or point of entry you describe.

The heat shrink material that comes on the factory made terminals is much thicker and far more robust than the adhesive lined heat shrink you can buy off the shelf.

Notice the glue oozing out of the ring end of that terminal.


----------



## Maine Sail

chjensen said:


> Soldered joints failing is always due to improper technique,
> 
> This is the way to do it right and make soldered joints last.
> -Use a heat shrink so the solder and flux doesn't run up the wire (under the insulation
> Use good quality solder (with flux inside)
> after you solder the wire - wash off all the flux residue with alchohol - this is a critical step as water+flux=acid and will corrode the wire quickly if left on.


Traditional rosin fluxes are available in non-activated (R or NC), mildly activated (RMA) and activated (RA) strengths. RA and RMA fluxes can contain a rosin that's combined with a cleaning and activating agent, usually an acid, which increases the wettability of metals to which it is applied by removing or clearing the surface of existing oxides. The residue resulting from the use of an RA or a poorly made flux labeled as "RMA flux" is and can be *corrosive* and must be cleaned off the piece being soldered! This is nearly impossible with multi stranded tinned marine wire and this is why nearly all the soldered joints I've witnessed over the years are of poor quality! People use the WRONG flux or WRONG rosin cored solder!

Non-activated R or NC or a high quality RMA rosin core flux from a known and trusted manufacturer are the ONLY product that should be used in the marine environment!! There are many RMA fluxes out there that are NOT acid free...

It's your boat though so do as you wish...


----------



## rhedrick

*halekai36*

I totally agree with you that the factory installed heat shrink on a connector is basically fool proof. However, I have found the factory installed shrink is usually only readily available on certain size loop connectors, not all sizes. I have found it difficult to locate it for spade connectors (does it exist?) and in the smaller sizes. Therefore, the alternative method has been a very good option for me. I find the efficiency of time in buying a stock of various size connectors and appropriate heat shrink at your local marine store and using the T-9 (or alternative) fills the bill.

I originally used all loop connectors (you know, the mantra, they will never "fall off"), but the extreme gymnastics of big hands, limited space, small screws/connectors with the accompanying frustration and time to completely remove a fastener on a hard-to-reach terminal block, putting the screw through the loop and getting that tiny screw to take is just too much (I'd probably still be in the boat yard). Unless you have noticeable or extreme vibration, which is not common on sail boats, or on large wire connections that use lugs, the spade is the way to go - loosen the screw, slip on the spade and tighten. One thing I didn't previously mention, once the completed connection screw is tightened, I again spray the entire assembly with T-9. Done. I look at some of the work I did years ago and it looks like I did it last week. Your choice.


----------



## Maine Sail

rhedrick said:


> However, I have found the factory installed shrink is usually only readily available on certain size loop connectors, not all sizes. I have found it difficult to locate it for spade connectors (does it exist?) and in the smaller sizes.
> Unless you have noticeable or extreme vibration, which is not common on sail boats, or on large wire connections that use lugs, the spade is the way to go - loosen the screw, slip on the spade and tighten.


Yes large rings and spades are available in factory made heat shrink. However, you will most likely only ever find "safety spades" or "captive fork spades". Safety spades are written into the ABYC standard as the ONLY acceptable spade connection. Straight spades, the ones without the bent up safety tips, should be avoided on boats!

Ancor is NOT the only manufacturer of good quality heat shrink connectors. I buy from AMP, FTZ, 3M and Ancor and I've never not been able to find the terminal I needed..

ABYC, Nigel Calder, Don Casey, USCG and other industry insiders and experts would all disagree with you about sailboats NOT having vibration issues. Perhaps, if you feel that sailboats don't exhibit vibration, you have not spent enough time, off shore, in rough weather. I can assure you that when your boat literally falls off the face of a wave that there is CONSIDERABLE vibration and strain to every component on the boat including cabinetry, wiring, tankage, engine, rig, plumbing and more. Vibration is one of the main reasons the ABYC and other experts, in the industry, suggest "safety spades" , "strain relief" & a "mechanical connection" other than solder alone among other safety precautions......

Some Nigel quotes:

*"Cables in boat use are subject to vibration and, at times, considerable shocks. Solid-cored cable of the kind used in household wiring is liable to fracture. Stranded cable must be used on boats."
*
and

_*"Cables need: strength to resist the vibration and pounding experienced in boats, adequate insulation to prevent ground leaks, and sufficient size to minimize voltage drop."*_


----------



## sailingdog

Rhedrick-

You shouldn't be using a spade connector on a boat, unless it has the upturned ends. Electrical terminals on a boat are supposed to be captive, which is why ring terminals are generally used, except where the screws are captive, and then spade terminals with the upturned tips are used instead.


----------



## rhedrick

*halekai36 and Saildog*

Boy, you guys are brutal. Of course I use the safety spades - that is why I mentioned "marine" store when buying connectors - I don't go to the local five and dime. So, I stand by my method. Hey guys, I built my boat from a bare hull. I have sailed it extensively and have never had a problem with any electrical install. And vibration, ok, ok, you get vibration but how many times do you fall off a wave?

My original response was to the posting regarding the problem with the gap on a heat shrink, which might have let moisture in - I offered a suggestion that might help and which works. I am outa here.


----------



## Maine Sail

rhedrick said:


> Boy, you guys are brutal. Of course I use the safety spades - that is why I mentioned "marine" store when buying connectors - I don't go to the local five and dime. So, I stand by my method. Hey guys, I built my boat from a bare hull. I have sailed it extensively and have never had a problem with any electrical install. And vibration, ok, ok, you get vibration but how many times do you fall off a wave?
> 
> My original response was to the posting regarding the problem with the gap on a heat shrink, which might have let moisture in - I offered a suggestion that might help and which works. I am outa here.


Not trying to be brutal to you at all but just trying to clarify things for the hundreds of folks that will come across this thread in the future who don't know the difference between a captive a and a non captive spade. As in the spades discussion I figured you used captive spades building your Westsail but others may not know the difference.

I'm only critical about these issues because I've spent considerable time in many bilges, and seen tens to hundreds of dangerous installation issues including fractured wires and melted wire jackets due to poor connections and not just with electrical but dangerous plumbing and mechanical installs too.

SD, myself and a few others here take safety and the advice relating to it seriously and always try and clarify on the side of safety that's all.... Please don't take it personally we did not mean to offend at all..

P.S. Try to find an AMP or FTZ distributor and you'll pay a full third what you pay for Ancor connectors at WM or most chandleries.

For FTZ it's best to track down their local rep and they can tell you who sells them in the area..


----------



## Cruisingdad

rhedrick said:


> Boy, you guys are brutal. Of course I use the safety spades - that is why I mentioned "marine" store when buying connectors - I don't go to the local five and dime. So, I stand by my method. Hey guys, I built my boat from a bare hull. I have sailed it extensively and have never had a problem with any electrical install. And vibration, ok, ok, you get vibration but how many times do you fall off a wave?
> 
> My original response was to the posting regarding the problem with the gap on a heat shrink, which might have let moisture in - I offered a suggestion that might help and which works. I am outa here.


Hey, don't take any of it personal. It is a good discussion back and forth. Remember you cannot inflect tone in an email/thread/writing. I am certain they mean nothing personal.

This has been a much better thread than what I anticipated. Good to have everyones input.

- CD


----------



## sailingdog

Rhedrick-

I don't see my post as being brutal... you didn't specify that you were using safety spades, instead of normal spades, and neither Halekai or I can read minds...


----------



## thekeip

Actually, ABYC shows a picture of another type of captive spade, where the forks of the spade are formed into a 'C' shape. I can't remember ever seeing such in commercial service.
If you must use spade terminals, bend the tips of the forks; otherwise, use rings.
Howard Keiper
Sea Quest
Berkeley


----------



## camaraderie

*C'mon you guys...you can do it...give me 100 posts on how to crimp a friggen wire!! *


----------



## sailingdog

Cam, can you please keep it on topic... after all, you are a moderator and should be setting a good example for us mere mortals. 

Keip-

Can you post a photo of the "c-clip" type terminals, as I don't think I've seen one.


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## sailaway21

The topic expired about seven pages ago.


----------



## rhedrick

*crimps pimps etc.*

Ok guys, I am over my angst. I understand - my interest is also in contributing to a full discussion of what works and what doesn't. I find these posts most educational, really. I hope to be able to contribute more in the future. Having built the Rhino (a Westsail 32) twice (I didn't get enough abuse the first time) and over a total period of 17 years (what? we don't live forever), I may be able to offer some advice as I do know a little bit about boat building (yeah, I can hear it now "a LITTLE bit"). And, I also accept the fact that I probably know more about boat building versus sailing although I think I can handle my own in the second (hey, it was gusting to 30 knots off Riaetea heading for Huahine and on the horizon, the SQUALL. With my -now - wife sitting in the cockpit of a totally unfamilar charter boat clutching the tiller in a death grip and yelling at me as I was frantically putting in the second reef , "YOU READ THE BOOKS, WHAT DO WE DO NOW?")- how sad. Anyway, I digress, thanks for the response. (I know, I know, I'm gabby.)


----------



## sailaway21

rhedrick,
Welcome to sailnet. You'll fit in just fine.


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## Stillraining

*Ok*

That was 101 you can pull the plug now CD....Wait ...no...No...I didn't...mean on me...Arrrrg...


----------



## PBzeer

I don't recall seeing it mentioned, but maybe it's too obvious. Crimping is EASIER than soldering.


----------



## sailingdog

One other good thing about crimping... it doesn't require electricity or messing around with hot objects, which is very much a good thing, when you're trying to repair a broken wire, head down through a bilge hatch, on a boat that is rolling with heavy seas.


----------



## KB1NNN

Just to put the icing on the cake - The ABYC standards do not alow for soldered only connection - the connection must be of some type of mechanical means (crimping).


----------



## Maine Sail

*Some other interesting..*

Here are some other interesting points from ABYC E-11:
*
"Conductors shall be at least 16 AWG. EXCEPTIONS: 1. 18 AWG conductors may be used if included with other conductors in a sheath and do not extend more than 30 inches (760mm) outside the sheath." 11.16.1.1.2."

*
_* "Conductors used for panelboard or switchboard main feeders, bilge blowers, electronic equipment, navigation lights, and other circuits where voltage drop must be kept to a minimum, shall be sized for a voltage drop not to exceed three percent".

**"Conductors used for lighting, other than navigation lights, and other circuits where voltage drop is not critical, shall be sized for a voltage drop not to exceed 10 percent."

**"Solderless crimp on connectors shall be attached with the type of crimping tools designed for the connector used, and that will produce a connection meeting the requirements of E-11.16.3.3." 11.16.3.8."

"Current-carrying conductors shall be routed as high as practicable above the bilge water level and other areas where water may accumulate. If conductors must be routed in the bilge or other areas where water may accumulate, the connections shall be watertight."11.16.4.1.6."

"Terminal connectors shall be the ring or captive spade types." 11.16.3.4."

"Twist on connectors, i.e., wire nuts, shall not be used." 11.16.3.6."

"Ring and captive spade type terminal connectors shall be the same nominal size as the stud." 11.16.4.1.12."
*_ 

_*"The construction of insulated cables and conductors shall conform with the requirements of: 11.16.1.2.2.1. UL 1426, Cables for Boats&#8230;"11.16.1.2.2."
*_
_* "Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit."11.16.3.7."*_


----------



## TSOJOURNER

next to a uniform crimp the next most important idea is preventing corrosion. A trick I learned in the Alarm/Security Industry is to use Vasoline. Coat both the wires and the inside of the connector before crimping and sealing.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

Cruisingdad said:


> I am not trying to bring up another very heated argument on this board, but I would like to tell anyone still soldering that almost without exception, EVERY soldered joint on the V-42 we have is corroding and failing. It may have taken close to 20 years to do it, but we did not find these issues on ANY of the crimped joints... NONE.
> 
> If that is not a first hand testimonial to crimp over solder, I do not know what is.
> 
> - CD


As a retired aerospace engineer I never saw a soldered connection on ANY flight or weapon hardware... BUT the crimping tool is a very special item that UNIFORMLY compresses the sleeve.... ain't your typical Ace Hdwre tool!


----------



## Stenn

It was said a few pages back, regarding liquid insulation...that it does have it's uses. 

I think that answer touches on the real answer to crimp vs. solder....it completely depends on your application.

As an Air Force electronics tech, I was taught in Tech School to always crimp, then solder, all connections to lugs, with non-corrosive, electronics-grade solder, NOT the stuff you find at Home Depot. 

As for the threat of creating a solid conductor by allowing solder to flow/wick up into the conductor, ...as another poster here tried to state (although doing so with a typo "...use a heat shrink" ...I think he said)...we were taught to use a heat sink such as an alligator clip, or an actual solder heat sink, clipped just ahead of where the bare wire goes into the insulation, to absorb heat, cool the wire beyond that point, and prevent the wicking of liquid solder into the wire, thereby preventing creating that solid wire we all agree would be bad due to vibration eventually cracking it.

But the key here is the application....I was being taught electronics repair of radios and antenna wires that would be exposed to the elements, not doing auto and boat power wiring. We can not issue unequivocal decrees about what should and should not ever be done....we must consider application.

I can attest to the vibration my Newport 27's Universal 5411 diesel creates in and around the engine compartment, so will take under advisement the information shared here on this forum....the vibration from that diesel, especially with all my ground wires attached at a shared engine bolt, is likely to cause some of those connections to fracture, because I'm sure I did not adequately prevent the wicking of solder down the conductor.

But away from the engine compartment's vibration, crimping, along with solder, and then shrink wrap or silicone grease or dielectric paste, would definitely seal that connection against corrosion if done right...sealed more perfectly than crimping and shrink wrap alone. Those cracks and corrosion observed by CruisingDad? were likely the result of cold solder joints (improper/inadequate heating of BOTH the lug and the wire), which would then result in those cracks, which would then allow corrosion from inside the connection. But RF(radio frequency)/antenna connections should definitely be soldered, for example.

But I think one of the final points mentioned, that crimping is easier, is the real reason why nobody's been willing to discuss applications first, before declaring as Gospel that solder should never be used, only crimping.

By the way, someone (maybe as a joke?) asked what's a good soldering iron to use. I use a butane-refillable, variable-heat (10 to 60 watts) soldering iron that also has varous tips like a mini blowtorch tip that is excellent at shrinking shrinkwrap, and have even carried it with me up the mast in the bosun's chair, to repair my running light. Up there, corrosion and moisture are the biggest threats to a poor connection, not vibration, and micro-sealing those conductors in solder is a sure way to prevent moisture from getting into the connection and corroding it again, as long as adequate heat is applied to actually bond both conductors to the solder. Personally, I would not have confidence in a crimped connection up there....I'm sure I'd be repairing it again. But I will certainly stop soldering connections that will be subjected to severe engine vibration...

...and maybe go whole-hog and buy one of those outrageously expensive ratcheting crimpers.

By the way, speaking of going whole-hog/overboard...you guys that have been so strident in your ONLY CRIMP declarations have not taken into account that you are also talking about doing the perfect job, with the perfect tool, with the perfect materials.....like the $1 per lug, seamless, copper-lined stuff and the $50 crimpers. Come ON !!! Do you really think the majority will actually go out and look for and buy all that stuff.....like the expensive, adhesive-lined shrinkwrap...when we could just buy a $5 can of liquid insulation (and it DOES provide strain relief....but YES, it's VERY messy!)...or an assortment of non-adhesive shrinkwrap from Harbor Freight Tools.....

...maybe each skipper answering needs to declare first whether they read "Good Old Boat" or "Cruising World," so we know what kind of money your answers presuppose? (If you can't tell, I'm a "Good Old Boat" guy 

Stenn on the Chesapeake


----------



## cardiacpaul

Stenn, 
gawd luv ya man... 

The ABYC stds have been stated, and they're 'etched in country gravy' meaning they're bound to change when the next best thing comes along. 

Your last couple of paragraphs however, show me you're a man after my own thought process. thank you.

The VAST majority of sailors on this board are never going to do a single handed circumnavagation of Cape Horn. 

I'm all for doing things right once, but I'm not going to buy a 50.00 crimper and terminals with some alloy that can only be mined by Sherpas by hand in the Himalyas. 
Gimme a pair of dikes and some glue lined heat shrink tubing anyday.


----------



## sailingdog

did the cuban approve you getting two more ladies... 


cardiacpaul said:


> *Gimme a pair of dikes* and some glue lined heat shrink tubing anyday.


----------



## denverd0n

paul43 said:


> BUT the crimping tool is a very special item that UNIFORMLY compresses the sleeve.... ain't your typical Ace Hdwre tool!


Okay, I believe you. So where can I find one of these special types of crimpers? The one I have is a cheapie from Home Depot.


----------



## TRMN8R

Radio Shacked.


----------



## Maine Sail

denverd0n said:


> Okay, I believe you. So where can I find one of these special types of crimpers? The one I have is a cheapie from Home Depot.


Hamilton Marine has them:

ANCOR RATCHETING DOUBLE CRIMPER FOR INSULATED CONNECTORS 154763 $62.99









ANCOR RATCHETING SINGLE CRIPMER FOR HEAT SHRINK INSULATED CONNECTORS 159418 $55.99


----------



## denverd0n

Okay... Do I need one of each? The single crimper and the double crimper?


----------



## sailingdog

Denver-

The bottom crimper in Halekai's post is for heat shrink terminals. The top one is for insulated non-heat shrink crimp terminals. You don't need both...but if you plan on using both kinds of terminals, having both would be nice.


----------



## Maine Sail

*Denver..*

Sorry... This article may explain their use a little better..

Marine Wire Termination


----------



## TSOJOURNER

hi guys, worked at schooner creek boatworks for a couple of years as the systems engineer/electrician on repairs and new installations/upgrades... 

saildog has given the correct procedure- especially the marine grade heat shrink- Ancor makes it- it has a glue on the inside that will bubble out and really seals the connection, plus helps prevent flex. I do it for all but-splices and terminal ends.. ABYC says at least 1" onto wire from lugs which terminate battery cables too.

When I first started working, I asked about soldering because I came from a consumer electronics background- I was told that two things are at work: (1) is the safety of the mechanical bond...obviously the crimp just has more material involved in the connection and allows for more movement than solder- the solder with antimony etc forms more of a crystal than a metal and is therefore not a flexible material... but as I'm sure we've all seen on boats the wire strands broken at the crimped end- usually on a spade terminal but sometimes on the wires butt-spliced running wild on the boat. We could not have greater than about an 8" free run an anything and that was max max- a wire or hose and wire bundle might be approved to span something but always with support from a nearby surface... flex, solder or crimp is bad! (2) is dissimilar metals leads to galvanic corrosion... the joint and surrounding metals will be leached of electrons/molecules until the molecular lattice just fall apart... anyway, i think i worked on boats too long, lol, cheers!


----------



## camaraderie

Logos..nice to have another pro on board...good post! What type of CE stuff did you do?


----------



## TSOJOURNER

CE... Chemical Engineering? Certified Electrical? I am sorry but I am not familiar with that abbreviation- Carbon/Epoxy?

Chemical Engineering... just the sciences in college... physics, chemistry 1st year and the first half of O-chem... lot of lab work of course (making acetomenaphin, banana oil, other compounds... using mass-spectrometer adn analyzing output- now just reading, discussion, and some real-world application... you know how it is everything should incorporate some engineering and often requires it- but usally, for knowledge and experience, I'll find the smartest guys, lots at Schooner Creek, and then pay attention! Keep quiet unless to ask questions after I've thought about it (hopefully) Vic Tumor, Mike Ward, the owner Steve Rander- have a question about anything about any sailboat and they've seen it, done it, fixed it, designed it, and I was fortunate enough to be there to learn.

i've installed bow thrusters complete, stern thrusters complete (cored the hull, fit the vetus tube, motor, fiberglass support, additional battery bank, fuses, cabling and cabling runs... safety switch, and finally the thruster control at the helm- pick a spot, chase and secure the wire, cut into the bridge somewhere near the helm and install the control: test/sea trial

one auto pilot install I did on a 37 foot "crab-crusher" (full-keel) sailboat built in taiwan(?)... not a tayana and they weren't sure either... one of two they mentioned which I don't recall... anyway, it had a cage built around the base of the pedestal which held the sprockets feeding the quadrant and I believe was intended to be of structural assistance to the pedestal and perhaps the cockpit as well... anyway, I had to fabricate a steel base for the ram of sufficient strength and it had to sit with +/-5 deg. on plane over all three axes referenced of course to the rudder shaft... which followed the transom's angle which was raked towards the boat... but the real difficulty was calculating the exact position the ram had to sit in the air in order to be able to turn the quadrant fully in each direction and not be in the way of cables, the framing, or the hull as the boat was a double ender so space sqeezed rather abruptly and I had to do it all from a hole that my 6'4" frame could just hunch in to work... anyway... after cutting, welding, and installing it and everything else... the installation and calibration of the raymarine componects was cake... 

Carbon/Epoxy: built some carbon fiber parts (one was the instrument panel on the Ocelot 43 which was touchy because the finish had to be perfect and the carbon mat the same... anyway then along with Carlos built and installed the carbon fiber knees in it and other stuff... 

radars... satellite system repair on a fountain express cruiser 48? the system was KVH and a stop swich activator had failed so it wound the cable up and then returned an error and shut down after some twitching... they thought they had to pack it and ship it to NJ or wherever but since i have background i took a look and bought a serial port universal adaptor kit to query the unit through terminal emulation software and found out the problem... that was cool... solar panels and control units, lots of alternator changes, conversions, 
balmar external regulators, gensets, 

it's all coming back ugh... this is cathartic but sorry if I am winding on a bit ; )

or did you mean something else entirely lol and you? have you/do you crawl into all the places on a boat you hope you never have to see?


----------



## camaraderie

Logos...LOL...sorry to put you through all that! You mentioned you were in Consumer Electronics before boat stuff. In the industry we refer to that as CE! Sorry for the confusion...but it was an interesting read anyway!


----------



## wind_magic

You can also strip the ends of the two wires and twist them together, then seal it with some bubble yum. 

Sorry, couldn't resist the temptation ...


----------



## camaraderie

CP...thats where his FarHarbor39 "in the box" shippable boat was made among others. Good memory for an old coot!


----------



## TSOJOURNER

that boat was there when I was... was there for it's frenzied completion. Things were tense at the end but the product was superb, farharbour39 "container yacht" and I worked on the 1st production model (built in europe) that came back for quality assurance purposes, testing... I was on and off the prototype and may have done some small things but Adrianne was on that while I was on the 52' Sailing Cat recently commissioned...


----------



## camaraderie

logos ...the "Inbox" was here in NC last week and I got a tour from the owners and made a post or two here about it. Nice folks...very happy with the boat and they have shipped it all over in the last couple of years.


----------



## TSOJOURNER

That's fun, something my hands have touched and others. The craftsmen that worked on that boat were top notch. Seamus, Rick, Adrianne, Todd (not me) and of course Steve, Mike, and Vic and others. They are all still there except Todd. It was a "baby" of the works. But everything kind of is... have to go for now...


----------



## eolon

The correct answer is both.

Solder and then crimp electrical connections. 

Glad I could help...


Best Regards,

e

.::.


----------



## sailingdog

Actually, soldering isn't recommended... crimping with adhesive lined heat shrink tubing is really the best way to go.



eolon said:


> The correct answer is both.
> 
> Solder and then crimp electrical connections.
> 
> Glad I could help...
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> e
> 
> .::.


----------



## Maine Sail

eolon said:


> The correct answer is both.
> 
> Solder and then crimp electrical connections.
> 
> Glad I could help...
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> e
> 
> .::.


If you want to do crimp and solder you really should crimp first then flow the solder into it. But Dog is right in the marine world crimping, with the proper tools and crimp terminals is the preferred method..

You really should read the entire thread..


----------



## wind_magic

Why isn't soldering recommended on a boat ?

I assume it is because of the motion of the boat, that the movement makes the wires eventually break at the boundary between the solder and the wire because the solder can't flex, is that it ?

The only other thing I can think of is that the salt might affect the solder in some way, but I doubt that is true since it is mostly lead.


----------



## hellosailor

"The only other thing I can think of is that the salt might affect the solder in some way, but I doubt that is true since it is mostly lead."
You've been misinformed. Electrical solder *was* usually a tin/lead mix 60/40 ratio, so it was only 40% lead. But lead has been discouraged and often banned for quite a while now, lead-free solder has become the norm. So yes, there are galvanic effects and corrosion possible between the wire and the solder and the fittings.
On the other hand, NASA and the USAF use solder-filled fittings made by 3M for wiring that goes up up up. The fittings are soldered by heat gun or IR gun and they shrink-fit over the wires, the solder comes from internal rings in the shrink sleeve. The fittings are waterproof and gas (atmosphere) proof when properly made. But, those aren't cheap fittings.


----------



## artbyjody

Its a bunch of hogwash - crimps fail just as much as one does that is soldered. There is no such thing as a perfect solder job as nor is there the perfect crimp. What protects the connection is the shrink tubing. A few things to consider:

1. crimp is a mechanical connection only.
2. solder is chemical connection if done properly.

Neither of the two work properly without concerns for connectivity and prevention of corrosion.

None of the two account for the type of connections being used. I have said this time and time again - soldering is a great agent for connections and the result is often stronger than the gauge of wire required to connect. Heat shrink connections offer that mechanical buffer that is all. Crimp - solder, do both - the weakest point will still be the quality of connection or quality of the wire. Just that simple. A boats electronics - the wiring doesn't move or get stressed out any more than a car does - seriously. If you have a boat that flexes that much then stop putting electronics ins a West Marine dinghy. 

The factor in longevity is preventing corrosion from the latent salt air. Whether you crimp or solder - its the application of covering to prevent intrusion of elements that defines the bond. Just like you can't take a LCD and place in the cockpit - you first have to do some sealing to marinize it...I've seen both suffer death throws... try hard enough you make even the most respected solution fail..


----------



## US27inKS

While I have always preferred a nicely soldered connection, I will say that my mind has been changed (and not by this discussion). I friend brought his '32 ford hotrod into my shop for an intermittent no stall/no start. When the problem occurred the fuel pump was not running. After much hair pulling I traced the problem down to a connection he made by soldering 3 wires together. The wires were first twisted together in such a way as to make a strong connection even without soldering. Then they were soldered. The solder was shiny and bright, and none of the wires were the least bit loose. When the problem occurred I could touch this connection and the fuel pump ran again. I replaced the solder connection with a crimp connector and the problem was solved for good. The solder connection worked perfectly for 2 years before the problem, and I still can't tell you what was wrong with it. It looked great to me.

I'm sold. I don't solder anything together unless there's a very good reason to do so.



artbyjody said:


> Its a bunch of hogwash - crimps fail just as much as one does that is soldered. There is no such thing as a perfect solder job as nor is there the perfect crimp. What protects the connection is the shrink tubing. A few things to consider:
> 
> 1. crimp is a mechanical connection only.
> 2. solder is chemical connection if done properly.
> 
> Neither of the two work properly without concerns for connectivity and prevention of corrosion.
> 
> None of the two account for the type of connections being used. I have said this time and time again - soldering is a great agent for connections and the result is often stronger than the gauge of wire required to connect. Heat shrink connections offer that mechanical buffer that is all. Crimp - solder, do both - the weakest point will still be the quality of connection or quality of the wire. Just that simple. A boats electronics - the wiring doesn't move or get stressed out any more than a car does - seriously. If you have a boat that flexes that much then stop putting electronics ins a West Marine dinghy.
> 
> The factor in longevity is preventing corrosion from the latent salt air. Whether you crimp or solder - its the application of covering to prevent intrusion of elements that defines the bond. Just like you can't take a LCD and place in the cockpit - you first have to do some sealing to marinize it...I've seen both suffer death throws... try hard enough you make even the most respected solution fail..


----------



## jackdale

Nigel Calder recommends soldering.

I have had to backtrack on this one.


----------



## sailingdog

*Just because Nigel Calder recommends it, doesn't make it right. * For instance, Don Casey recommends that you tighten deck hardware partially, until the sealant cures and then finish tightening it after it has fully cured, which is also clearly wrong... and leads to more expensive repairs than properly countersinking the fastener holes and tightening it down once. While Don and Nigel are highly respected, some of their recommendations have since been disproven by real-world experience.

I'd also point out that soldering requires a deft hand and knowledge of how to do so properly to get a decent connection and requires a mechanical connection as well afterwards.

Crimping a connection is far easier for most people to do, and provides both a mechanical and electrical connection at once. Using the proper crimp tool and decent crimp connectors makes it very simple to get a solid and consistent connection.

I'd also point out that adhesive lined heat shrink tubing is really a good idea regardless of whether you crimp or solder.


----------



## eolon

War stories aside;

Mechanical (crimping) connections are formed by plastic deformation of the metals. The resultant connection starts out tight and then loosens over time. Once the connection loosens slightly, its conductivity plummets; this is why high power DC connections often overheat - they become poor conductors, and the current increases over time - until the connection is hot to the touch, or your boat burns to the waterline. Exposure to humid air and salt increases oxidative degradation. Crimped connections are a perfect candidate for crevice corrosion - the interstitial spaces between wires and between the wires and the connector pull in water by capillary action. Oxidative and galvanic corrosion increase the looseness of the connection.

Vibrations, and harmonic frequencies of all of the primary vibrations on a sail boat concentrate naturally at stress risers - the crimped connection is a huge stress riser, and will often fail through vibrational induced brittle fracture at the connection point.

Silver solder, with at least 3-4% silver, and rosin core flux, makes a poor mechanical connection (it is not glue) and an excellent electrical connection. A properly soldered mechanical connection is immune to crevice corrosion, it can corrode on the outside surface only. Vibrational analysis has proved over the last century or so that a properly soldered connection will last many orders of magnitude longer than a mechanical connection.

Many of the horror stories of soldered connections are no doubt from uninformed boaters using acid core solder that he had left over from the plumbing project to solder wires. The acid flux will eat the copper and tin in about a week. And of course, it is perfectly easy to make a solder joint look great and be useless; cold solder joints are difficult to detect - you have to know how to solder. Mechanical joints are easier to test (pull on the wire) but you will never make acceptable crimped connections with the Wal-Mart crimper that came free with the 12 feet of 12 gauge wire.

Anyhow...

The best of both methods can be had, and the drawbacks of each reduced, by soldering a connection first and then adding a mechanical connector.

The advantage of the ring, spade, etc. mechanical connector is that it makes a much better connection to terminal blocks and connection to devices than a soldered wire, and it is removable.

The soldered connection prevents loosening of the mechanical connection and corrosion beyond surface corrosion.

Best Regards,

e


.::.


----------



## hellosailor

"Crimping a connection is far easier for most people to do,"
And perhaps not, since most newbs will go down to the auto parts store and buy a $5-with-500-pieces crimp set that looks just like the $50 set but is doomed to fail. In crimping, just as with soldering, folks need to be aware of the details. The cheap sets are often just dimensioned wrong, and the cheap sleeves made incorrectly. They'll get you home, they just won't last ten years. Or they'll fall apart a good percent of the time.

Acid-core solder is a good suspect for a failed connection. Or maybe wires that weren't clean to start with. Or maybe just a cold solder joint, that problem affects production lines as well as hand work. If a 3-wire connection really had a perfectly solid mechanical twist under the solder--it wouldn't have failed even if the solder had. Obviously the solder had not wetted out and penetrated the wires, making that a failure due to a cold solder joint. 

And since it was in a hot rod--we have to assume the wires were all proper stranded wires, not solid ones, to begin with. Right? That would be another failure mode, regardless of connection type.


----------



## camaraderie

In car stereo installation we learned NOT to solder if we didn't want to see an install come back. Crimp it right and it stays solid.


----------



## tommays

Do we think were going to change any minds at this point


----------



## mitiempo

Can a professional electrician or electrical worker make a consistently good solder joint? Probably.
Can a professional electrician or electrical worker make a consistently good crimp? Probably.
Can a doctor, lawyer, or whoever owns a boat make a consistently good solder joint? Probably not.
Can a doctor, lawyer, or whoever owns a boat make a consistently good crimp? Probably with the proper tools and connectors and the proper instructions.
The proper crimper is not very expensive nor are the connectors. Adhesive heat shrink must be used afterwards to seal out moisture or connectors with adhesive heatshrink can be used. Tinned marine wire should be used. Even if you are making battery cables the tools are not that expensive when compared to getting the cables professionally done. As to the proper instructions see Mainesail's links below for some of the best information available with an easy to follow pictorial and tool model numbers as well.
All About Marine Wire Termination Photo Gallery by Maine Sailing at pbase.com
Making Your Own Battery Cables Photo Gallery by Maine Sailing at pbase.com
If crimping is standard with the FAA, USAF, and ABYC it should work for you.
Brian


----------



## sailingdog

Mitiempo—

The FAA, USAF and the ABYC obviously don't know a thing about electrical connections on a moving vessel...


----------



## wind_magic

I have an open mind on this subject for the moment, I am too new to boating to have developed a strong opinion one way or the other, I'm still collecting information so this thread is useful to me.

For now the way I do my connections is to strip the end of the wire, slip a bit of heat shrink over the wire and move it far enough down the wire so it doesn't get hot during soldering, then I crimp a connector on the end of the wire, then solder it like I have done for years in electronics. Once that is done and the connection has cooled I move the heat shrink up to the edge of the connector and fire it with a lighter to seal the connection. That works for me and I do not remember ever having a failed connection doing this, but I do not have experience using these connections on a boat. Works great in land vehicles though, so unless there are corrosion issues I would expect it to work on a boat too.


----------



## SteveInMD

Not all solder is the same. You have to use solder that is compatible with the wire you are using. The heat from soldering and the acid can damage wire that is not intended to be soldered. The pros will tell you crimp only and use heat shrink tubing with the hot glue lining (which is not cheap stuff).


----------



## eolon

sailingdog said:


> Mitiempo-
> 
> The FAA, USAF and the ABYC obviously don't know a thing about electrical connections on a moving vessel...


Laf! 5% of the USAF's electronics contain vacuum tubes - and the current regs still specify to lace wire runs with string; they aren't too keen on them newfangled wire ties.

The great thing about the USAF is that nothing stays in service for long, and everything gets inspected and/or replaced every 13 weeks by dozens of trained technicians. On that schedule and MTBF, I guess I would use crimped connectors throughout my boat. Unfortunately, it's just me. So I'll solder and crimp both.

Best Regards,

e

.::.


----------



## jfdubu

I've always believed that solder connections provide a better electrcal connection especially for signals. I just made a 5 pin soldered connection for my windex to meter signal at the base of the mast. I used a D9 male female computer connection and sealed it very well. There's no mechanical load on it so barring the wire getting snagged in the heat of battle it should last quite a while.


----------



## Cruisingdad

I posted pictures of this somewhere on here and have discussed this before, but here is some first hand knowledge between the two.

When we bought Dad's boat (a Tayana Vancouver 42), we ended up pulling out and replacing a lot of the wiring. None of the wiring was tinned. Everything that was soldered was cracked and corroded. Pretty much everything that was crimped was fine. The exception to the crimping only came on some exterior wiring (nav lights, for instance) though 99% of it was soldered too and a mess. 

I will never solder anything on a boat if I can help it. I reccomend to everyone that crimping is the ONLY method to use on a boat. This is a good first hand representation of about 20 years of "comparisson".

- CD


----------



## mitiempo

By the way, military specs for crimps are:
22 gauge..............15lbs
20 " ..............19lbs
18 " ..............38lbs
16 " ..............50lbs
14 " ..............70lbs
12 " ..............110lbs
10 " ..............150lbs

I wonder how many inexpertly done solder joints will meet these standards.
Brian


----------



## thekeip

In my own experience, if a solder joint looks right, it probably is. Experience will teach you what "looks right" means. Crimps give you no such visual clue.
A good technician knows how and when to use either method...each has it's place. A connection that defies soldering can often be crimped satisfactorily...non tinned, oxidized wire comes to mind.
Howard Keiper
Berkeley


----------



## Cruisingdad

The issue is that the solder cracks. The cracked solder corrodes. The corrosion causes failure.

It has no place in a boat or I would guess a car or plane either. 

Now, what I have witnessed may very well be a weekend warrior electrician with a blow torch and a roll of flux. But my first hand experience after reviewing the joints has been very negative. Given that crimping has shown no such negative effects, and is pretty darned easy to do, I cannot see why anyone would solder on a boat.


----------



## Maine Sail

*Data??*



eolon said:


> War stories aside;
> 
> Mechanical (crimping) connections are formed by plastic deformation of the metals.  The resultant connection starts out tight and then loosens over time.


IMHO this is pure speculation and your own personal theory. If it is not please direct us to a white paper supporting this claim. A properly crimped connection will be cold formed and will not "loosen" over time unless done incorrectly. If crimps are ok for NASA, Boeing and many other high tech high critical use applications they will be more than fine on your boat and have been on millions of boats and cars, and trucks and on and on and on. Most of the crimps on my own boat were 30 years old when I bought her and still passing current just fine. There were two solder joints that had failed both due to capillary action of solder creep up the wire which caused fractures.



eolon said:


> Once the connection loosens slightly, its conductivity plummets; this is why high power DC connections often overheat - they become poor conductors, and the current increases over time - until the connection is hot to the touch, or your boat burns to the waterline.


This is EXACTLY why the ABYC says solder only should never be used. In an over temp situation the solder can melt and you'll have a live wire. If you are soldering you must crimp first or have anotehr means of mechanical connection.



eolon said:


> Exposure to humid air and salt increases oxidative degradation.


This is why heat shrink crimp connections and tinned wire should be used. As one who lives in the North East, where nearly every home has a deep well, with LONG wire runs and fairly high amp draws, we just don't see these failures. You said "humid", how "humid" are wires sealed 200+ feet below the surface, that live underwater for their entire working life span and that last for 15, 20 years or more or until the pump fails? When almost every industry uses crimps reliably, without solder, including aerospace, and have been for years and years and years I think perporting that you must solder and crimp is over the top. Perhaps 2% of boaters know how to actually make a real solder joint. The rest will only make things worse.

The well at our old house was 245 feet deep and a true artesian. It over flows out the well cap almost all year. The crimps are about 240 feet below ground and totally submerged! The three wires connecting the pumps are CRIMPED and HEAT SHRINKED with what are called Stakons (basically adhesive lined crimps). These bare copper, non-tinned, wires have been under water now for over 13 years only crimped and heat shrinked..

Next time I replace my well pump I will be sure to let the well guy know that his hundreds of wells he's installed are going to fail because they are not both soldered and crimped..







I'm sure he'll get a real chuckle out of that.



eolon said:


> Crimped connections are a perfect candidate for crevice corrosion - the interstitial spaces between wires and between the wires and the connector pull in water by capillary action. Oxidative and galvanic corrosion increase the looseness of the connection.


First, in a PROPERLY executed crimp there will be NO interstitial spaces for water to wick. A proper crimp is cold formed and becomes a solid mass of copper. Water does not penetrate the solid copper pipes in your house and it does not penetrate a properly executed cold formed crimp as it becomes a solid mass at the crimp/lug/wire interface. Cheap crimp tools do not always make a true cold formed or cold welded connection.

The battery lugs & wire harnesses on my wife's car are crimped and not even hermetically sealed nor is tinned wire used. Her car is blasted with wet road salt all winter long, the engine bay looks like a salt lick right about now, and has been for six years. The car also resides only 40 some-odd yards form the moist salt air of the Atlantic ocean 365 days per year. It also lives outdoors as I have more important things to put in the garage like boat stuff.







I've yet to replace a battery cable on any of our vehicles nor a "crimped" wire harness. Perhaps I should call Honda and warn them of the impending battery cable disaster that is awaiting them for not using solder??









A hermetically sealed connection, using the heavy duty adhesive lined heat shrink I use, the same type of heat shrink used by WELL DRILLERS to seal SUBMERGED wires, is not and will NOT be exposed to moist salt air when done correctly. These connections are water tight. Remember we have millions & millions of wells and well pumps in this country that are not soldered, and reside submerged below hundreds of feet of water pressure. What keeps these connections dry? Adhesive lined heat shrink only!! If you have no "salt air" or no moisture you have NO corrosion.



eolon said:


> Vibrations, and harmonic frequencies of all of the primary vibrations on a sail boat concentrate naturally at stress risers - the crimped connection is a huge stress riser, and will often fail through vibrational induced brittle fracture at the connection point.


Funny this is the exact reasoning the ABYC uses for NOT using solder and for using marine grade, tinned, MULTI-STRANDED wire that meets UL-1426. The multi stranding and strain relief built into either heat shrink crimps or insulated crimps prevent work hardening by design solder creep does not.

Sure if a person with high soldering skills solders and crimps a terminal and uses a heat sink to prevent creep beyond the strain relief a solder joint will work fine. The harsh reality is that perhaps less than 2% of all boaters know how to solder properly or will ever do enough of it to develop the skill set. As I said above they can do more harm by soldering, without experience, than they can do with proper crimping tools and connectors.



eolon said:


> Vibrational analysis has proved over the last century or so that a properly soldered connection will last many orders of magnitude longer than a mechanical connection.


Can you please point us to a reference white papper that supports this "factual" claim in the marine environment??

Perhaps you should spend some time educating the engineers at NASA, Lockheed, Boeing, Lear Jet, SAE, ABYC, Blue Seas, Paneltronics, Prestolite Electric, Hinckley, Hatteras, Carrier Corp, 3M, Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota, Otis Elevator or any other company that uses millions of crimps reliably.



eolon said:


> Many of the horror stories of soldered connections are no doubt from uninformed boaters using acid core solder that he had left over from the plumbing project to solder wires. The acid flux will eat the copper and tin in about a week. And of course, it is perfectly easy to make a solder joint look great and be useless; cold solder joints are difficult to detect - you have to know how to solder.


Thank you for making my point.. Very few boaters know how to solder correctly and SHOULD NOT.



eolon said:


> Mechanical joints are easier to test (pull on the wire) but you will never make acceptable crimped connections with the Wal-Mart crimper that came free with the 12 feet of 12 gauge wire.


We're in full agreement!! You need the proper tools and quality conenctors like those made by Ancor, FTZ or AMP.



eolon said:


> Anyhow...
> 
> The best of both methods can be had, and the drawbacks of each reduced, by soldering a connection first and then adding a mechanical connector.


Again, this is bass ackwards. You should never solder first then crimp as it defeats the entire mechanical cold formed crimp. It can also damage the dies on the crimp tool. Here's what NASA has to say:
*
"4.3.4 Crimping. Stranded wire shall be used for crimping (Requirement). Crimping of solid
wire is prohibited. Crimping of solder tinned wire is prohibited."*

Somebody want to tell NASA they are wrong..


----------



## Maine Sail

mitiempo said:


> By the way, military specs for crimps are:
> 22 gauge..............15lbs
> 20 " ..............19lbs
> 18 " ..............38lbs
> 16 " ..............50lbs
> 14 " ..............70lbs
> 12 " ..............110lbs
> 10 " ..............150lbs
> 
> I wonder how many inexpertly done solder joints will meet these standards.
> Brian


You mean like this one yellow heat shrink 10/12 butt splice holding all these anchors:


----------



## sailingdog

Maine Sail—

Some people "KNOW" their way is the only correct way, regardless of what the various people in various industries and the science behind the facts actually says.... and nothing you say or do can convince them otherwise.


----------



## mitiempo

Originally posted by "thekeip"
"...if a solder joint looks right, it probably is...Crimps give you no such visual clue"

I can't see inside either joint, but by cutting open a crimp you can see a solid mass of copper as a result of the cold forming that takes place with a proper crimp. All About Marine Wire Termination Photo Gallery by Maine Sailing at pbase.com
cut open crimps pic at bottom of page.

Originally posted by "thekiep"
"...each has its place. A connection that defies soldering can often be crimped satisfactorily...non tinned, oxidized wire comes to mind."

Why would you wire anything on a boat with non tinned already oxidized wire?
Brian


----------



## Maine Sail

sailingdog said:


> Maine Sail-
> 
> Some people "KNOW" their way is the only correct way, regardless of what the various people in various industries and the science behind the facts actually says.... and nothing you say or do can convince them otherwise.


I'm not trying to convince those who would re-use already oxidized wire or those who already know all there is to know. I, as always, get concerned for the newbies to DIY who might take what ever they read at face value like "solder first then crimp" ...

P.S. Here is what a true cold formed crimp looks like INSIDE..

Before cutting it open








Cut Open (solid mass of cold formed copper):








I even polished it for the doubters:








Close up (sorry for the bad pics my flash and tripod are on the boat):









Sorry but there is NO water getting past this even before the adhesive heat shrink goes on....


----------



## thekeip

Mitiemp...

Anyone who's soldered "radio connections" of any sort knows what is meant when "it looks right"...bright, shiny, and the solder permeated into the joint. You don't have to cut the joint apart to examine it.
You just can't look at a crimp and know if it's good or not.

I quite often run into conductors that need to be spliced or terminated...older RG-8, old non tinned multidstrand, or many applications where replacing a cable would be impractical, or where the conductor can't be replaced at all
Howard keiper
Berkeley


----------



## mitiempo

If you're experienced at soldering you can probably tell when the connection is good - but the majority aren't that experienced. With a proper ratcheting crimper and the right connector you get a true cold weld inside as Mainesail's pics above show very well. Even for battery cables if you use the FTZ 94285 crimper you get a true cold weld in the lug. I just finished a set of battery cables in 2/0 and it worked like a charm.

I understand why you'd crimp when the conductor can't be replaced easily but I would crimp and heatshrink 100% of the time.
Brian


----------



## Maine Sail

mitiempo said:


> I understand why you'd crimp when the conductor can't be replaced easily but I would crimp and heatshrink 100% of the time.
> Brian


I agree with crimp/heat shrink. Even my non-critical wires, like my ST-60 wind, are done with adhesive lined heat shrink crimp connectors as well as the important stuff like mast light wiring..

The only stuff I solder on board is the center core conductor of my RG-8U to the PL-259 pin. The shield of the RG-8U is crimped then heat shrinked. The internal connection point, shown below, gets wrapped with self sealing tape once connected to the spar antenna wiring..


----------



## eolon

"Somebody want to tell NASA they are wrong"

Ha! You mean like when they mixed up meters and feet and flew the mars explorer into the ground? Ok, I will!

Best Regards,


e

.::.


----------



## sailingdog

PLease note, that failure was on the part of the eggheads not the technical team that made the spacecraft in question. The spacecraft in question didn't have any electrical failures... and most of the Mars Rover type craft have far exceeded their working lifespans... which is primarily attributable to the techniques used to make them.



eolon said:


> "Somebody want to tell NASA they are wrong"
> 
> Ha! You mean like when they mixed up meters and feet and flew the mars explorer into the ground? Ok, I will!
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> e
> 
> .::.


----------



## eolon

Copper is very soft and ductile so cutting through a crimped connection smears the metal and indeed makes it look like a "solid mass" of metal. A proper metallurgical inspection of a crimped connection involves slicing a section of the crimp with a microtome and looking at the surface with SEM. The interstitial spaces are always present, and can be very small, on the order of angstroms, but no amount of force can fuse copper wires into a solid mass. Unless you melt it, which I wouldn't recommend.

Crimping is a great mechanical connection, and a servicable electrical connection. Solder, especially modern, lead-free solders, are also very soft, and better yet, not prone to embrittlement. A proper solder joint fills interstitial spaces, and a proper crimped connector will deform the soldered wire and make an excellent connection. 

I sometimes use solder joints and sometimes crimped connectors, and sometimes both. 

I am simply putting in my 2cents worth of 30 years of electrical engineering, take it or leave it, as usual.

Oh, and how about the electrical failure that roasted 3 astronauts in the Apollo project?

...just because all the other kids jump off the Empire State Building doesn't mean I'm going to.

Best Regards,


e

.::.


----------



## sailingdog

The fact that you've had to go back to the Apollo missions says much about NASA and the reliability of crimping electrical connections.  I'd tend to think that equipment and technology have improved a bit since the Apollo missions...


----------



## Maine Sail

eolon said:


> Copper is very soft and ductile so cutting through a crimped connection smears the metal and indeed makes it look like a "solid mass" of metal. A proper metallurgical inspection of a crimped connection involves slicing a section of the crimp with a microtome and looking at the surface with SEM. The interstitial spaces are always present, and can be very small, on the order of angstroms, but no amount of force can fuse copper wires into a solid mass. Unless you melt it, which I wouldn't recommend.


This is why I polished it to remove any smear. If there were enough room for water to get in you would see black dots from the very soft tripoli polising rouge stuck to the surface. Lets not forget that your spar is held up by a similar concept called swaging where the metal is compressed into a near solid mass. Perhaps we should all weld/solder our swages??

Also what is the size of a molecule of silver as in silver solder? Is it smaller or bigger than an angstrom? Considering that every reference I have seen states that crimps must be applied BEFORE solder how is it that the solder can penetrate an angstrom??
One *angstrom* unit (A.O. or Å)= 0.1 nanometers, or one ten-thousandth of a micron (10-4 microns), or one hundred-millionth of a centimeter (1 x 10-8 cm.) One angstrom is the diameter of a hydrogen atom -- the smallest element.
If hydrogen is the smallest element how large is silver? Would it do any good to add solder to a properly crimped battery lug if it can't penetrate?

Apparently you missed the part about the NASA requirement that the crimping of pre tinned wire is BANNED. Mil Spec also states teh same. As usual the 30 year veteran electrical engineer knows more than anyone else or the collective wisdome of the entire aerospace industry or the ABYC which is made up of people/voting members, in the industry, including electricians who work on boats every single day.

I also thought that a water molecule was nearly three times the size of an angstrom making it physically impossible for water to penetrate through a proper crimp.

This is a poor crimp made with a cheap tool & cut open with the same tool. You can see wires because this is a crappy connection. Like with soldering the right tool and the right method MUST be used only it is MUCH easier for a novice DIY to make a good connection with the proper crimping tools than it is for them to do the asme with solder, hence the current ABYC standards..











eolon said:


> Crimping is a great mechanical connection, and a servicable electrical connection.


Yep and plenty servicible for NASA, the aerospace industry, US Army, Marines, Air Force & USCG, Ford, Honda, Toyota, GE and thousands of other companies who rely on billions of crimps world wide every day..



eolon said:


> Solder, especially modern, lead-free solders, are also very soft, and better yet, not prone to embrittlement.


Really so how many 30 degree bend cycles will a tinned section of 14 ga marine wire handle with and without solder? I know the answer becuase I have tested and done it before. The non tinned wire will handle considerably more than 1000% more 30 degree bend cycles than the same wire tinned..



eolon said:


> A proper solder joint fills interstitial spaces, and a proper crimped connector will deform the soldered wire and make an excellent connection.


Keep telling your self that crimping after tinning is a good idea and soon enough you might even believe yourself..



eolon said:


> I sometimes use solder joints and sometimes crimped connectors, and sometimes both.
> 
> I am simply putting in my 2cents worth of 30 years of electrical engineering, take it or leave it, as usual.


Everyone can do as they wish on their own boat as you do. Is your 30 years of EE in the marine industry?? Sometimes applying theories learned in one industry does not always pan out in another.

Take for example the many mechanical and aeronautical engineers who have been proven wrong about propeller drag. For yeas they would pontificate on helicopter blade analogies and and use "lift" arguments and in geneneral be adamant that a locked prop caused more drag. It apparently does on a helicopter but does not not when dragged through the water at 4-6 knots attached to a boat...



eolon said:


> Oh, and how about the electrical failure that roasted 3 astronauts in the Apollo project?


How bout it? It was not caused by a solder vs. crimp situation and as suggested by the NASA investigation could have been caused by perforated teflon wire insulation. This is why you need to support wires and have proper strain relief. This was more likley chafe than a connection issue unless of course you are trying to re-write NASA investigation history..



NASA said:


> 4. CAUSE OF THE APOLLO 204 FIRE
> 
> The fire in Apollo 204 was most probably brought about by some minor malfunction or failure of equipment or wire insulation. This failure, which most likely will never be positively identified, initiated a sequence of events that culminated in the conflagration.





eolon said:


> ...just because all the other kids jump off the Empire State Building doesn't mean I'm going to.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> e
> 
> .::.


By all means it's your boat and you should do as you wish.

You need to understand that some of us have actually worked in the industry and have seen lots of solder failures, incorrectly or correctly done, it does not matter because we know the vast majority of boater CAN NOT do it correctly. No one is disputing that solder makes an excellent electrical connection, it does, but the application is the tough part.

The many, many, many voting members, of ABYC, of which one is a friend, have also seen these solder failures. There is a reason the industry suggests crimping over soldering. Just yesterday I asked the electrician at the boat yard what are his two most common electrical failures. Answer #1: Corrosion & Answer #2: Soldered joints. I also asked about crimps and he said occasionally he will see a bad one but that it was poorly done to begin with. I also aksed if he has ever seen a failure of a heat shrink crimp connection and he said yes. He then went on to describe this failure as one that a boat owner decided to hang a winch handle from in a lazarette and the ring part of the terminal broke from the swinging handle after two seasons of this. He then laughed and said .... "A real failure? No.".....

You need to know that when you make blanket statements that you will be debated so that those reading this forum can make their own educated decisions. Just because you have 30 years experience as an EE does not mean you are always right and there are many other variables that one can and should consider.


----------



## wind_magic

Maine sail, that was all very interesting, I learned a lot by reading it. You even answered the question I had in mind when you showed what the badly crimped connection looked like when you cut it open - thank you for going the extra mile, it was like watching myth busters. 

Question - Did you say above whether it was a good idea to solder after you made a good crimp or to leave the good crimp alone ? I have been doing crimps and then soldering, what is your opinion on that ?

One odd thing you showed me was that the bad crimp wasn't as bad as I thought it would be inside, I actually imagined worse.


----------



## Maine Sail

wind_magic said:


> Question - Did you say above whether it was a good idea to solder after you made a good crimp or to leave the good crimp alone ? I have been doing crimps and then soldering, what is your opinion on that ?
> 
> One odd thing you showed me was that the bad crimp wasn't as bad as I thought it would be inside, I actually imagined worse.


Soldering after a crimp has been made is fine provided you:

A) Know what you are doing (most don't). 
B) Use a heat sink to prevent solder creep up the wire
C) Use the correct solder.
D) Use proper strain relief/adhesive lined heat shrink. 
E) Use the proper crimp terminals for soldering which are different and non-insulated and rarely as robustly built as the insulated ones or heat shrink ones. 
F) Use the proper crimp tool for the solder/crimp terminals which most don't own or have if they have been using a crimper designed for insulated crimps.

In short doing crimp then solder requires different tools, proper training and more labor and will not really yield any better end result.

The bottom line is that there are billions of crimps in use world wide maybe even trillions. Yes solder makes a great electrical connection but is very tough to do correctly, is brittle at the solder wire junction and if resistance becomes an issue it can melt leaving a dangerous hot wire dangling. This is why ABYC recommends a mechanical connection first then solder if you feel the need.

IMHO the best bet is to buy adhesive lined heat shrink crimp terminals and the proper single crimp ratchet tool.

Sailors Solutions sells the heat shrink crimps and the crimp tool. I don't see any need to crimp then solder when using proper connectors w/adhesive heat shrink and the proper crimp tool.


----------



## Maine Sail

jackdale said:


> Nigel Calder recommends soldering.
> 
> I have had to backtrack on this one.


Jack,

Let's be clear and please quote us the reference & page # for your statement. In his book Boat Owners Mechanical and Electrical Manual he shows how to solder, which is good, but he also says the following.



Nigel Calder from Boat Owners Mechanical & Electrical Manual Pg. 122 said:


> _*Soldering is a controversial subject. A properly soldered connection creates the best electrical connection, but all too often the soldering is not done properly. In any case, ABYC regulations require that every joint have a mechanical means of connection other than solder. The reason for this is that if the joint gets hot (through excessive resistance or a high current flow) the solder may melt and the joint fall apart. So solder often becomes just an adjunct to a crimped connection, but in this case the solder wicking up the cable creates a hard spot, which is then liable to fail from vibration. The concensus among professionals is that a properly made crimp, done with the proper tools, is frequently a more reliable termination than soldering.*_


I don't know how you read that but I don't read it as a recommendation but rather a caution about using solder.


----------



## eolon

Wow, hot topic. Tragically, I have a job so I can't endlessly post superfluous minutia, maybe when I retire =)

Soldering = the Devil, yeah, we get it.

Of course, that doesn't exactly jive with solder traces on PC boards, does it? That solder runs just about everything in your life, from your computer, to your car, to your doorbell.

Anyhow, I'm sure you're right, I just thought you might be interested in an alternate opinion. Guess not.

Best Regards,


e

.::.


----------



## tommays

eolon said:


> Wow, hot topic. Tragically, I have a job so I can't endlessly post superfluous minutia, maybe when I retire =)
> 
> Soldering = the Devil, yeah, we get it.
> 
> Of course, that doesn't exactly jive with solder traces on PC boards, does it? That solder runs just about everything in your life, from your computer, to your car, to your doorbell.
> 
> Anyhow, I'm sure you're right, I just thought you might be interested in an alternate opinion. Guess not.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> .::.


Its pretty MUCH the entire Marine Industry and the Coast Guard who has final say over most things on boats  who want things crimped


----------



## Maine Sail

eolon said:


> Wow, hot topic. Tragically, I have a job so I can't endlessly post superfluous minutia, maybe when I retire =)
> 
> Soldering = the Devil, yeah, we get it.
> 
> Of course, that doesn't exactly jive with solder traces on PC boards, does it? That solder runs just about everything in your life, from your computer, to your car, to your doorbell.
> 
> Anyhow, I'm sure you're right, I just thought you might be interested in an alternate opinion. Guess not.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> e
> 
> .::.


Soldering is not the devil. No one ever said it was. perhaps you missed the whole point about the vast majority of boat owners not having a CLUE how to properly solder and this is the main reason why it is not advised on top of heat from a resistance situation. There is lots of solder on boats but mostly in PC boards as you mentioned. The computer I am on now has both crimps, many of them, and soldered PC boards. The two methods both make fine electrical connections..

As I have said before solder makes an excellent electrical connection but that is ONLY HALF the story operator error is the other..

We are always interested in an alternate opinion but your original post was this:



eolon said:


> The correct answer is both.
> 
> *Solder and then crimp electrical connections.*
> 
> Glad I could help...


And NASA says:

*"4.3.4 Crimping. Stranded wire shall be used for crimping (Requirement). Crimping of solid
wire is prohibited. Crimping of solder tinned wire is prohibited."*

I simply disagreed with the methodology of solder first then crimp as do most standards, manufacturers, NASA and the US Military.

Crimping first then soldering is fine provided it is done correctly, which most boaters just don't know how to do.

Again, no one is disputing that solder makes an excellent electrical connection but the application, environment and installation techniques are being debated.


----------



## wind_magic

Most of the crimps in a computer or electronic device are to hold heavy components on to the device where solder might not have enough mechanical holding power. Things like plugs that come out through the case that the user interacts with directly are often crimped on to the board so that they won't break free when the user does what users do. Electrical connections are still solder, they are just crimped too to help hold them to the boards.


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## hellosailor

Come on, sd, you and I both know that the meters-and-feet "mixup" was totally bogus. A very clever cover story that NASA put out trying to explain why 2/3 of the 53(?) Mars landers/missions have "failed" to date.

If the public ever was told the real truth--that the Martians have shot down 2/3 of the UFOs that have reached Mars from Earth--there could be chaos in the streets. Better to take one for the team, and come up with a really really clever "Doh!" excuse instead.

(WEG)


----------



## sailingdog

Yes, there are a lot of soldered connections, but I'd also point out that most of the soldered connections you're talking about were done by a wave soldering machine rather than much more fallible human beings. I'd also point out that most of the same equipment will also have some crimped connections-which haven't failed at any greater a rate than the soldered ones you mention.

However, in the specific case the rest of us are discussing-user installed wiring on a boat-crimping is far more likely to result in a decent connection than is soldering.

You might want to open the stomach window you're using to see to get some air. The facts and the industry standards just don't support your statements or viewpoint.



eolon said:


> Wow, hot topic. Tragically, I have a job so I can't endlessly post superfluous minutia, maybe when I retire =)
> 
> Soldering = the Devil, yeah, we get it.
> 
> Of course, that doesn't exactly jive with solder traces on PC boards, does it? That solder runs just about everything in your life, from your computer, to your car, to your doorbell.
> 
> Anyhow, I'm sure you're right, I just thought you might be interested in an alternate opinion. Guess not.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> e
> 
> .::.


----------



## eolon

sailingdog said:


> Yes, there are a lot of soldered connections, but I'd also point out that most of the soldered connections you're talking about were done by a wave soldering machine rather than much more fallible human beings. I'd also point out that most of the same equipment will also have some crimped connections-which haven't failed at any greater a rate than the soldered ones you mention.
> 
> However, in the specific case the rest of us are discussing-user installed wiring on a boat-crimping is far more likely to result in a decent connection than is soldering.
> 
> You might want to open the stomach window you're using to see to get some air. The facts and the industry standards just don't support your statements or viewpoint.


Facts and Industry standards? that's odd, I don't remember reading that facts and industry standards were required in order to relate our particular experiences and knowledge. This is the internet, you know... unless you thought it was your personal amazing fairyland and you are the Galactic Overlord. If so, excuse me - please don't sic your minions on me!

Best Regards,

e

.::.


----------



## bheintz

sailingdog said:


> The facts and the industry standards just don't support your statements or viewpoint.


ABYC, NASA, FAA, US Military, . . .

How disappointing, no one has quoted yet from the shipping classification societies of the Marine Industry.

LR - Lloyd's Register
DNV - Det Norske Veritas
NK - Nippon Kaiji Kyokai (ClassNK)
ABS - American Bureau of Shipping

ACS - Asia Classification Society
BKI - Biro Klasifikasi Indonesia
BV - Bureau Veritas
CCS - China Classification Society
CR - China Corporation Register of Shipping
CRS - Hrvatski Registar Brodova (Croatian Register of Shipping)
GL - Germanischer Lloyd
HRS - Hellenic Register of Shipping for Greece
ICS - Iranian Classification Society
IRS - Indian Register of Shipping
IROS - International Register of Shipping
KR - Korean Register of Shipping
PRS - Polish Register of Shipping (Polski Rejestr Statków)
RBNA - Registro Brasileiro de Navios (Brazilian Register of Shipping)
RINA - Registro Italiano Navale
RINAVE - Registro Internacional Naval SA
RS - Russian Maritime Register of Shipping
GBS - Guardian Bureau of Shipping
SCM - Ships Classification (Malaysia) Sdn Bhd


----------



## camaraderie

Good posts Maine...I learned a few more things!


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## jarcher

*How bad would this be?*

How bad would it be to use ordinary crimp connectors, like those from Radio Shack, with marine adhesive lined heat shrink over it for any area not expected to be near water, like inside headliners?


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## mitiempo

jarcher
While the adhesive lined heat shrink would protect the connection from moisture, the connection is nowhere near as good. A proper marine crimp connector is made of tinned solid copper while the lower quality are usually aluminum. See Mainesail's site below for examples of the quality differences.
All About Marine Wire Termination Photo Gallery by Maine Sailing at pbase.com
Brian


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## jarcher

mitiempo said:


> jarcher
> While the adhesive lined heat shrink would protect the connection from moisture, the connection is nowhere near as good. A proper marine crimp connector is made of tinned solid copper while the lower quality are usually aluminum. See Mainesail's site below for examples of the quality differences.
> All About Marine Wire Termination Photo Gallery by Maine Sailing at pbase.com
> Brian


Thanks Brian, makes sense. Marine connectors it will be this weekend then!

Is there an online source for these where they cost less than about $0.90 per unit?


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## mitiempo

I'm from the west coast of Canada, but I think Hamilton Marine might be a good place to try.
Brian


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## Maine Sail

jarcher said:


> Is there an online source for these where they cost less than about $0.90 per unit?


Even the thinner walled 3M heat shrink butt connectors can be found at Wall*Mart in the automotive section but they are not that much less money than the better built FTZ connectors from Sailors Solutions.

Terminal Town (LINK) (less money, I don't know the quality, but these guys do mostly aircraft stuff)

Cable Organizer.com (LINK) (check out their starter kit with ratcheting crimper NSPA-1003-UL)


----------



## bheintz

*Blade Connectors?*

ABYC frowns on the use of friction connectors (aka blade and bullet connectors). Essentially Friction connectors (the blade and bullet variety) are allowed, provided they resist a 6-pound pull.

Many engine sensors use blade connectors. Since the engine a pretty good source of vibration, is there a good method to prevent these blade connectors from loosening over time?

I've seen instances where wires are soldered to the directly to the blades - such as speaker connections.

Are connections like these preferable if there are soldered to the spade connections?


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## hellosailor

ja-
About the only way to save on quality connectors is to close your eyes, bite the bullet, and buy the box of 100 ps. instead of buying a couple at a time. The damn things are simply expensive no matter how you look at it. You may find a local "electrical supply house" carries the same grades for a little less than other sources. The best ones often have a seamless copper tube as an inner lining. That's not tinned, but a dab of silicone grease before you insert the wire accomplishes the same purpose. The seamless inner liner is supposed to provide a more uniform crimp than any type of "seamed" construction. Beyond that...you have to see what is offered and make your own choice about whether it is good enough.

bh-
Those blade connectors are not all the same. If you look carefully at a brand name like Fast-On, you'll usually see a dimple neaer the edge of the blade. When you snap their "qd" fittings together, a bump on one piece snaps down into the dimple on the other, making them much harder to pull apart. And preventing them from slipping apart, even with lots of vibration. That's part of the reason why they may be several times the cost of the "500 for $5" packs, they simply aren't all the same.


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## TSOJOURNER

Since I spent gobs of money on the boat, I am not going to skimp on a racheting crimper and the proper terms and shrink. I have been known to crimp, solder (rosin based), then shrink/seal. Then I lace a loom on multiple connections such as the DC panel.


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## oldmedic499

i have used brush on sealer with good results for many years


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## sandcruiser

one note of importance: lower-priced (maybe higher priced as well) ratcheting crimpers are almost always designed for insulated crimps/terminals. They won't get tight enough on a bare terminal/crimp

and if you plan to use your own heat shrink (or adhesive lined shrink) then you probably want bare terminals

I discovered this after doing a really good job on re-wiring an area behind the dash of my truck. Many (many!) of the crimps failed, and with some investigation it is clear that it is because the crimper assumes a thin layer of plastic (the insulation) on insulated crimps. Without that extra layer, they don't get tight enough.

So while a ratcheting tool is the "better" option, it is not foolproof nor perfect. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Maine Sail

sandcruiser said:


> one note of importance: lower-priced (maybe higher priced as well) ratcheting crimpers are almost always designed for insulated crimps/terminals. They won't get tight enough on a bare terminal/crimp
> 
> and if you plan to use your own heat shrink (or adhesive lined shrink) then you probably want bare terminals
> 
> I discovered this after doing a really good job on re-wiring an area behind the dash of my truck. Many (many!) of the crimps failed, and with some investigation it is clear that it is because the crimper assumes a thin layer of plastic (the insulation) on insulated crimps. Without that extra layer, they don't get tight enough.
> 
> So while a ratcheting tool is the "better" option, it is not foolproof nor perfect. Just my 2 cents.


They are also meant to be used with high quality crimp terminals like those made by AMP, FTZ or Ancor to name a few. The stuff you buy at Wal*Mart, or many auto-parts stores, does not always have a thick enough copper wall and no strain relief sleeve thus it won't crimp down tight enough because the material on cheap crimp connectors is thinner..


----------



## sandcruiser

Yup
Could have been that as well.

I don't recall the brand name of the crimps that I bought, but I did get them from a 'reputable' source and they were not particularly low priced.

Still... live and learn.



Maine Sail said:


> They are also meant to be used with high quality crimp terminals like those made by AMP, FTZ or Ancor to name a few. The stuff you buy at Wal*Mart, or many auto-parts stores, does not have a thick enough copper wall and no strain relief sleeve thus it won't crimp down tight enough because the material on cheap crimp connectors is thinner..


----------



## flatracker

*Old habits*

While I do not in any way disagree with Maine or the dog, I do mine differently. Been doing it the same way for a long time, and have never ever had any connections fail. I use a crimp connector, using a non ratcheting tool. One of the cheapos from the box stores. For a reason. This leaves a slight gap at the wire end of the crimp. I then solder the crimp connection, apply a light coating of 5200, and heat shrink over that. Heat from the center out, forcing the 5200 out the ends of the heat shrink. Then apply a coating of liquid tape over that. May be the wrong way to do it, and might be overkill, but it works for me.


----------



## sandcruiser

"might be overkill"

just maybe
but I'm not surprised to hear that you haven't had failures
I don't think I would have the patience to do that many steps.



flatracker said:


> While I do not in any way disagree with Maine or the dog, I do mine differently. Been doing it the same way for a long time, and have never ever had any connections fail. I use a crimp connector, using a non ratcheting tool. One of the cheapos from the box stores. For a reason. This leaves a slight gap at the wire end of the crimp. I then solder the crimp connection, apply a light coating of 5200, and heat shrink over that. Heat from the center out, forcing the 5200 out the ends of the heat shrink. Then apply a coating of liquid tape over that. May be the wrong way to do it, and might be overkill, but it works for me.


----------



## mitiempo

Proper heatshrink connector or good connector and separate heat shrink works very well and is quite fast.


----------



## Maine Sail

mitiempo said:


> Proper heatshrink connector or good connector and separate heat shrink works very well and is quite fast.


Yes, very easy, waterproof and quick. I made about 20 crimps last night and shrunk them. This took all of about 6 minutes. I pay about 0.36 ea for these 10-12ga ring terminals, so they don't have to be expensive either.

I just keep imagining the messy visual of all that 5200 and liquid electrical tape..

Crimped & Shrunk - Top
Crimped - Bottom










You can see the pile of crimped wires in the back ground.


----------



## xort

How many crimps can you do with the 5200 before the tube goes bad?

5200 only has a shelf life of about 1 or 2 days once opened. Even the smallest tube would do about 200+ terminals. and don't get any on your hands!


----------



## mitiempo

I can't imagine the 5200 and liquid electrical tape method either. Way too slow and way too sticky.


----------



## sailingdog

Now Maine Sail is cheating.. he's not using the typical Ancor crimper that he talks about in his posts...  This is NOT an Ancor crimper.


----------



## Maine Sail

sailingdog said:


> Now Maine Sail is cheating.. he's not using the typical Ancor crimper that he talks about in his posts...  This is NOT an Ancor crimper.


Why would I use that when I have the Amp? This is the same crimper they use to make certified aircraft crimps. Sadly that tool ONLY crimps 10-12 ga yellow connectors and cost nearly $700.00. The T-Head Amp that I have that does red/blue terminals runs about $1200.00.

I'd be laughed out of town if I even hinted at boat owners buying one of these tools. Perhaps 98% of ABYC certified marine electricians don't own tools of this quality. Heck at the mere hint of suggesting a $35.00 crimp tool I was nearly laughed off the board...:laugher

Don't get me wrong the Ancor is a decent unit multiples better than a staking or "dimple" crimper but when you have the best why not use it.

Funny thing is I "lost" both of these tools for about a year and a half? I had not really lost them but had loaned them to my father, and forgot I had done that... The roles have apparently reversed, now he's borrowing my tools....

P.S. I did not pay anywhere near full price for those tools. My buddy works for Bombardier/Lear Jet and hooked me up with a company that re-builds and re-certifies these tools for the aeronautical industry... they still cost a LOT more than an Ancor though..


----------



## sailingdog

Maine Sail said:


> Why would I use that when I have the Amp? This is the same crimper they use to make certified aircraft crimps. Sadly that tool ONLY crimps 10-12 ga yellow connectors and cost nearly $700.00. The T-Head Amp that I have that does red/blue terminals runs about $1200.00.


LOL... yeah, I know what you mean. I have some tools from working in the IT industry that I use, that are far better than what the layperson will have access to... I was just pointing out that the tool is not the average one that most boaters will be buying. 



> I'd be laughed out of town if I even hinted at boat owners buying one of these tools. Perhaps 98% of ABYC certified marine electricians don't own tools of this quality. Heck at the mere hint of suggesting a $35.00 crimp tool I was nearly laughed off the board...:laugher
> 
> Don't get me wrong the Ancor is a decent unit multiples better than a staking or "dimple" crimper but when you have the best why not use it.


Very true.

Funny thing is I "lost" both of these tools for about a year and a half? I had not really lost them but had loaned them to my father, and forgot I had done that... The roles have apparently reversed, now he's borrowing my tools....[/quote]

I'm at that point too... but prying some of them out of his mitts is really tough.



> P.S. I did not pay anywhere near full price for those tools. My buddy works for Bombardier/Lear Jet and hooked me up with a company that re-builds and re-certifies these tools for the aeronautical industry... they still cost a LOT more than an Ancor though..


And I bet you don't leave them on the boat...


----------



## justjon

Wow, what an educatuion! So this means that for me to reinstall my VHF radio which consists of one conection that I soldered and shrinkwrapped, I have to buy a $40 tool and the proper marine grade conectors and adhesive shrinkwrap and redo this all over again. My $50 an hour marine electrician sounds cheap at this point.


----------



## sailingdog

Pay the marine electrician each time you need to modify something on the boat's electrical system or buy the tools and invest in yourself and learn how to do it yourself. One pays for itself rather quickly...the other just drains money from your wallet and you learn NOTHING. Besides, I'd point out that if you don't have the knowledge, the tools and the parts aboard, fixing stuff in an emergency is a lot more difficult. *THERE ARE NO ELECTRICIANS AT SEA.*

I'd point out that many electricians don't do a very good job, certainly not one that would hold up to ABYC standards.

*When it comes to boats, it is very easy to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.* 



justjon said:


> Wow, what an educatuion! So this means that for me to reinstall my VHF radio which consists of one conection that I soldered and shrinkwrapped, I have to buy a $40 tool and the proper marine grade conectors and adhesive shrinkwrap and redo this all over again. My $50 an hour marine electrician sounds cheap at this point.


----------



## Maine Sail

justjon said:


> Wow, what an educatuion! So this means that for me to reinstall my VHF radio which consists of one conection that I soldered and shrinkwrapped, I have to buy a $40 tool and the proper marine grade conectors and adhesive shrinkwrap and redo this all over again. My $50 an hour marine electrician sounds cheap at this point.


No it does not, if you are comfortable with your connection.

It should be noted that the ABYC standards say solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection.

*11.16.3.7. Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor.

*It is a still a good idea to know how to crimp and to have a decent tool to make them with. The Harbor Freight Tool crimper is only $14.99 and heat shrink butt splices can be bought at Home Depot and even Wal*Mart these days.. Under $20.00 for a crimper and the butt splices..


----------



## sandcruiser

in the end, you don't *have* to make the connections in any specific manner.

soldered w/ shrink wrap is much better than twisted together and electrical taped, but for a very small investment in tools and technique, you can have an even better connection that is less likely to fail or corrode.

In your shoes, I wouldn't replace the recently connected vhf. But I might start looking at older connections to see if it is time to fix those.

I'm a big fan of fixing the worst things first, then when the worst things are all gone, moving onto the new worst... and so on until everything is as you want it.


----------



## Maine Sail

sandcruiser said:


> in the end, you don't *have* to make the connections in any specific manner.


There is one caveat to that statement and that is, an insurance survey. If your surveyor does not like things electrically he may note them on the survey and your insurance company may insist that they be changed.

When we bought our current boat there were a hand full of wire nutted and soldered connections that were "noted" as what the surveyor considered unsafe. My insurance company wanted proof they had been fixed before issuing insurance.

If you have no insurance, another entire topic, then the statement above is correct..


----------



## jarcher

Maybe it depends upon your tolerance for failure. If you are confident that the soldered and shrink wrapped connection is sturdy and won't fail, then leave it be. If you think it might fail and the VHF is important to you, maybe its worth redoing. The marine environment is much harsher for electrical than most people realize.

The hardest part about redoing it is probably getting to the wires, depending upon your boat. Using the proper crimp tool and butt connectors is really easy. They are worth the money, you'll use them often, although I agree the connector seems to cost an outrageous amount of money for what they are.


----------



## hellosailor

"THERE ARE NO ELECTRICIANS AT SEA."
sd, haven't you ever heard of....

...The Solder Fairy ?!


----------



## Cruisingdad

Ok, I have said this before and will say it again: do not solder on boats, people. 

B oat are not houses. They vibrate. The vibration works a crack in the solder. The crack causes heat (and corrosion if not heat shrinked). The heat causes more resistance. The resistance causes more heat... and it turn into a vicious cycle.

I posted a lot of pics on Sailnet about 2 years ago as we pulled a lot of wiring off of dads boat (a tayana 42). Tayana makes very good boats, but the previous owner was a firm believer in solder. All of the solder joints, especially those outside of the cabin, were either corroded, failed, or on the way to failing. THe wires on those showed heat failure on the wires and the casing. 

None, zero, zilch of the Tayana original crimps showed failure, though the ones on the outside (none of it was tinned wire) showed corrosion on the copper wire. Also of interest was that none of the copper (again non-tinned) wire on the interior showed corrosion unless it was soldered.

Crimp everything. Heat shirink the areas that are exposed to sea spray. Use tinned wire everywhere - though I personally believe you do not have to down below in protected areas. I think it verges on a waste of money down below as none of it showed corrosion after 20 years. If you use non-tinned wire on the outside in a salty environment, it will corrode. If you solder anywhere on the boat, it will fail, eventually. 

I am not trying to act like an expert on this. I am not. But I have owned and been on enough boats over the years to give you a factual account and real life experiences. Ande as I mentioned above, and I know this drives Mainesail an dothers crazy, but I am not convinced you have to use tinned wire down below in most applications (bilge areas and wet areas the exception). We noticed no difference between the two.

My thoughts...

Brian


----------



## sailingdog

No, I haven't. Is that when you dress up in a pink tutu and tights, and wear a fake set of wings and go sailing and helping boats in distress???



hellosailor said:


> "THERE ARE NO ELECTRICIANS AT SEA."
> sd, haven't you ever heard of....
> 
> ...The Solder Fairy ?!


----------



## mitiempo

Place your bets. Which thread will be longer? This one or "Cruising with Bulldogs."


Crimps and adhesive heatshrink with the proper tools 100% of the time.


----------



## Cruisingdad

mitiempo said:


> Place your bets. Which thread will be longer? This one or "Cruising with Bulldogs."
> 
> Crimps and adhesive heatshrink with the proper tools 100% of the time.


The better bet is which on ewill get more heated!! (No pun intended).

Brian


----------



## hellosailor

sd-
"Is that when you dress up in a pink tutu and tights," No no, you've got me confused with Vin Diesel in The Tooth Fairy. We're dopplegangers, that happens a lot. 

Brian-
"The vibration works a crack in the solder." Not the vibration, but the result of folks ignoring "every" spec for soldering wires, that says the wire must be solidly affixed so it can't move and work-harden the solder joint, which then fails. The vibration won't hurt a thing, IF there's a proper job done of making sure the solder is't being flexed. 
Not that I'm saying solder is always the right way to go, but I suspect a boat sees less "vibration" than a car does, and I know solder joints in cars with 100,000 road miles on them, with a vibrating engine and road vibration all the way. And, no problem on the solder joints.
I've also seen a ZapStop protection diode on a boat alternator, where literally both wires coming out of the diode have broken off because the installer simply taped it over and left it to vibrate and flex in free space, causing the vibration to focus on the diode body and snap it clean off the leads. 

And then there are some terminations that simply have to be soldered, i.e. to contacts and pins that simply can't be crimped onto.


----------



## mitiempo

As stated about 100 posts ago, ABYC doesn't allow solder to be the only connection. Crimp or crimp and solder but crimping is a must.


----------



## slowpoke

*re solder jpint*

maybe you should rosin core solder instead of acid core


----------



## redline

*this thread*



Cruisingdad said:


> The better bet is which on will get more heated!!
> Brian


How about working in something about guns on board? From what I've read, combining firearms and crimp-vs-solder should set some kind of record.


----------



## fairbank56

mitiempo said:


> As stated about 100 posts ago, ABYC doesn't allow solder to be the only connection. Crimp or crimp and solder but crimping is a must.


ABYC does make an exception for battery lugs which can be soldered without crimping. Also, ABYC is not the law, their standards are advisory only and entirely voluntary. Lots of electronics equipment wiring connections are soldered only. Soldering is fine as long as you provide adequate strain relief on the wiring to prevent flexing of the soldered joint.

Eric


----------



## Maine Sail

fairbank56 said:


> ABYC does make an exception for battery lugs which can be soldered without crimping.


Eric,

The ABYC does make an exception for battery lugs provided they meet the specifications for soldering of 1.5 times wire diameter. there are lots of battery lugs sold that do not meet this criteria.It is my understanding that this exception came about because factory pre-made battery cables are often factory soldered and cheaper for some builders to use.

*E-11*
_*11.16.3.7. Solder shall not be the sole means of
mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the
connection shall be so located or supported as to
minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder
changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor.

EXCEPTION: Battery lugs with a solder contact
length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the
conductor.

NOTE: When a stranded conductor is soldered, the
soldered portion of the conductor becomes a solid
strand conductor, and flexing can cause the
conductor to break at the end of the solder joint
unless adequate additional support is provided.

*_


fairbank56 said:


> Also, ABYC is not the law, their standards are advisory only and entirely voluntary.


This is entirely true for DIY's, unless, as I mentioned above, you need insurance and your surveyor notes your connections as he deems unsafe and your insurance company won't issue coverage until said items have been repaired..

The ABYC standards are partly derived from the CFR for boat builders, which is mandatory, and partly from evidence based practices so some of what is in the ABYC standards is mandatory if you are a boat builder.

Solder can be fine but should be done properly and with a mechanical connection, then solder. A wire slice, as in Western Union, pig tail slice etc. does not satisfy the ABYC requirement of "mechanical connection" and I have personally spoken with John and asked for clarification on this question.

It is important to note that the ABYC does NOT ban the use of solder on boats. It makes suggestions about how to safely use solder on a boat and that suggestion is a mechanical connection, then solder, and then properly strain relieved. In my 35 years on and around and working on boats I can practically count on one hand the number of times I have come across "properly" soldered wire joints.

Having worked in three different boat yards, on "yachts", with a friend who is a marine surveyor and on my own boats and customers boats it has allowed me to see with a large, N=LOTS, of solder failures. On your own boat, N=1, failures might be quite rare, but as the N grows, N=500, N=3000, N= 5000. N-10,000 etc. so does the rate of failure/success between solder and crimps on boats. The failure rates I have seen for soldered connections is significantly higher than that of crimped connections, because most folks just don't know how to do it properly. When done correctly they are fine, and some folks DO know how, but that happens very, very rarely in my experience. The PO of my own boat was an EE and still made horrible and unsafe soldered joints..



fairbank56 said:


> Lots of electronics equipment wiring connections are soldered only.


Yes factory soldered joints are almost always fine as they are done to a standard. DIY soldered joints are most often not done to a level that can even compare to a wave soldered device.



fairbank56 said:


> Soldering is fine as long as you provide adequate strain relief on the wiring to prevent flexing of the soldered joint.


I would add:

If a proper mechanical connection exists, if a heat sink was used to prevent solder creep, if done correctly to prevent a cold solder joint , if the right solder was used to prevent corrosion etc.....

I have NO problem with the use of solder if done by a competent solderer. Tthe reality is that I have seen so few good soldered connections on boats that I am a touch skeptical that it happens all that often.

My real concern is for a newbie DIY to hit Rat Shack, buy a $4.99 soldering iron and begin re-wiring the boat... Crimps for the masses are a lot easier and historically, in the marine environment, more reliable, hence the ABYC's suggestions for a mechanical connection then solder...


----------



## hellosailor

"My real concern is for a newbie DIY to hit Rat Shack, buy a $4.99 soldering iron and begin " All a newb can do with one of those, is burn his hand as it swings around on the stiff little power cord.


----------



## Maine Sail

hellosailor said:


> "My real concern is for a newbie DIY to hit Rat Shack, buy a $4.99 soldering iron and begin " All a newb can do with one of those, is burn his hand as it swings around on the stiff little power cord.


Yeah kind of the like the stiff, rebar like, useless power cords on all Harbor Freight tools......


----------



## fairbank56

Maine Sail said:


> The ABYC standards are partly derived from the CFR for boat builders, which is mandatory, and partly from evidence based practices so some of what is in the ABYC standards is mandatory if you are a boat builder.


Well, here's what CFR Title 46 Shipping, subpart C part 120 Electrical Installations says;

(g) Each connection to a conductor or terminal part of a conductor must be made within an enclosure and have either:

(1) A pressure type connector on each conductor;

(2) A solder lug on each conductor;

(3) A splice made with a pressure type connector to a flexible lead or conductor; or

(4) A splice that is soldered, brazed, or welded to a flexible lead or conductor.



> Yes factory soldered joints are almost always fine as they are done to a standard. DIY soldered joints are most often not done to a level that can even compare to a wave soldered device.


I was talking about things like accessory connectors provided by manufacturer's with their equipment where it is up to the installer to provide the necessary cable and install these connectors by soldering the wiring to the pins of the connectors using a soldering iron. These are not done using wave soldering techniques such as is done with printed circuit boards.

I agree that the average DIY does not have the knowledge/skill/experience to do marine wiring properly and in accordance with established standards and laws. I am a marine electronics service technician and installer with 34 years of experience (you have one year on me). I have seen it all as well, and not just DIY's, but by so called expert professional's.

Eric


----------



## scottyt

okay so we know soldering is bad, so i will just use wire nuts with silicone inside. then maybe some electric tape to hold the wire nut on. i already have the electric tape on board to tape the muzzle of my hand gun up so water does not get in 


okay its started have fun







the above is all in jest


----------



## Maine Sail

fairbank56 said:


> Well, here's what CFR Title 46 Shipping, subpart C part 120 Electrical Installations says;
> 
> (g) Each connection to a conductor or terminal part of a conductor must be made within an enclosure and have either:
> 
> (1) A pressure type connector on each conductor;
> 
> (2) A solder lug on each conductor;
> 
> (3) A splice made with a pressure type connector to a flexible lead or conductor; or
> 
> (4) A splice that is soldered, brazed, or welded to a flexible lead or conductor.
> 
> I was talking about things like accessory connectors provided by manufacturer's with their equipment where it is up to the installer to provide the necessary cable and install these connectors by soldering the wiring to the pins of the connectors using a soldering iron. These are not done using wave soldering techniques such as is done with printed circuit boards.
> 
> I agree that the average DIY does not have the knowledge/skill/experience to do marine wiring properly and in accordance with established standards and laws. I am a marine electronics service technician and installer with 34 years of experience (you have one year on me). I have seen it all as well, and not just DIY's, but by so called expert professional's.
> 
> Eric


I was specifically referring to CFR 33 Part 183 not the CFR which covers large ships. ABYC is geared for pleasure marine and things other than large tanker/ships which have their own specific standards. There is overlap between shipping and CFR 33 but they are not the same on all counts.

If you look at CFR 33 - 183 you'll see where much of E-11 is in line or pulled from it. E-11 goes deeper though than the CFR but for builders, compliance with CFR 33 is mandatory where as ABYC is not....


----------



## fairbank56

I had already checked Title 33 (Navigation and Navigable Waters) part 183 which doesn't even compare to ABYC E-11 standards and there is nothing in there with regards to crimping/soldering of cable/wiring terminations.

Title 46, Shipping, is not just for large cargo/tanker vessels, small passenger vessels are also covered with the same regulations regarding terminations that I already quoted.

Eric


----------



## Maine Sail

fairbank56 said:


> I had already checked Title 33 (Navigation and Navigable Waters) part 183 which doesn't even compare to ABYC E-11 standards and there is nothing in there with regards to crimping/soldering of cable/wiring terminations.
> 
> Title 46, Shipping, is not just for large cargo/tanker vessels, small passenger vessels are also covered with the same regulations regarding terminations that I already quoted.
> 
> Eric


Eric,

Here is what I said.



Maine Sail said:


> The ABYC standards are partly derived from the CFR for boat builders, which is mandatory, and partly from evidence based practices so some of what is in the ABYC standards is mandatory if you are a boat builder.
> 
> suggestions for a mechanical connection then solder...


I never mentioned that the crimping stuff came from the CFR just that some of the ABYC standards, are in part, taken from the CFR. And as I said some of what is in the ABYC is mandatory for boat builders because some of what is in ABYC is also in the CFR. It is not mandatory because it is in the ABYC standards but rather mandatory because it is in the CFR..


----------



## fairbank56

This thread is about "Crimping versus Soldering". You seemed to bring up CFR rules in defense of ABYC rules regarding this subject when you stated "The ABYC standards are partly derived from the CFR". CFR rules do not say a soldered wire termination must have a "mechanical connection, then solder" as you stated. CFR rules say you can have EITHER a pressure type connector or a solder lug, EITHER a pressure type splice connector or a soldered splice.

The point is, soldering is fine when done properly just as crimping is fine when done properly just as crimping and then soldering is fine when done properly. Iv'e seen PLENTY of improperly installed terminations done either way. The debate goes on because of all the instant Internet "experts" who have little experience and don't know what the heck they are talking about. 

Eric


----------



## scottyt

fairbank56 said:


> ... instant Internet "experts" ...


did he just call maine sail an internet expert?.... sure sounds like it to me


----------



## Maine Sail

fairbank56 said:


> This thread is about "Crimping versus Soldering". You seemed to bring up CFR rules in defense of ABYC rules regarding this subject when you stated "The ABYC standards are partly derived from the CFR".


No, I brought it up simply to explain where and how the ABYC comes to present its standards, partly from the CFR and partly from evidence and other sources.



fairbank56 said:


> CFR rules do not say a soldered wire termination must have a "mechanical connection, then solder" as you stated.


Eric, please read very carefully I NEVER stated that the CFR said that. I said the ABYC says that but never said the CFR stated that.



fairbank56 said:


> CFR rules say you can have EITHER a pressure type connector or a solder lug, EITHER a pressure type splice connector or a soldered splice.


Yes that is what CFR 46 says never disputed that.



fairbank56 said:


> The point is, soldering is fine when done properly just as crimping is fine when done properly just as crimping and then soldering is fine when done properly.


Yes, I think I said most of that too.



fairbank56 said:


> Iv'e seen PLENTY of improperly installed terminations done either way.


Yes I too have seen all type of connections done incorrectly but more bad solder than anything, mostly due to incorrect practices.



fairbank56 said:


> The debate goes on because of all the instant Internet "experts" who have little experience and don't know what the heck they are talking about.
> 
> Eric


Are you calling me an "internet expert" who does not know anything? Not very becoming behavior when we agree on the vast majority of what we are discussing. You take me out of context, make up stuff that I never said and then insult me? Cool, welcome to the forum..


----------



## fairbank56

Maine Sail said:


> Are you calling me an "internet expert" who does not know anything?


 Absolutely not. You are obviously quite knowledgable about the subject and the rules. I am talking about those who jump in here and make claims about this and that when they obviously don't have a clue but think they do because they just "googled it" and are now "experts". People misstate ABYC rules ALL THE TIME. It can be quite frustrating, and comical, for an experienced pro to deal with the inexperienced DIY's who think they know it all.

Eric


----------



## Maine Sail

fairbank56 said:


> Absolutely not. You are obviously quite knowledgable about the subject and the rules. I am talking about those who jump in here and make claims about this and that when they obviously don't have a clue but think they do because they just "googled it" and are now "experts". People misstate ABYC rules ALL THE TIME. It can be quite frustrating, and comical, for an experienced pro to deal with the inexperienced DIY's who think they know it all.
> 
> Eric


People often think the ABYC is mandatory for them when it is not. You and I are in strong agreement on that. Still not a bad idea for a DIY to try and do projects that would comply if only for insurace surveys and re-sale surveys.

That being said, as you and I know, the ABYC standards are not perfect. There are parts I don't agree with and some points I am working with them on to get into committee, reviewed and added/changed, but for the most part it is an excellent standard and one I always try to work by because it is good and partly based in evidence, something many standards are not.

Give folks a chance here there are lots of very knowlegeable DIY's on this site as well as many industry professionals who do this day in day out...


----------



## KeelHaulin

Well; despite 23 pages of diatribe over crimping v. soldering, I feel compelled to make one more addition. I wanted to point out that on the ABYC code it says that a soldered connection would be acceptable if it is made secure from flexing at the ends of the solder joint (where wires would be bent sharply).

I am going to make the point that if you use a long enough length of adhesive lined heat shrink tubing on the solder joint; the ends of the solder joint become supported by the heat shrink tubing as it is less flexible than just the wire with it's sheath. If you are connecting two hot/ground wires with solder and you cover both individually with heat shrink; then cover both together with a larger/longer piece of heat shrink you will not only protect the connection from flexing you will protect them from chafe, moisture and corrosion.

For end point connections I would use crimp connectors with heat shrink (which are damn expensive to buy in small quantity). 

What I don't understand about ABYC's protocol regarding minimizing flex of solder joints is that it does not also apply to crimped connections; as they also create a "hard/solid joint" where the wire is joined to the connector.


----------



## fairbank56

Maine Sail said:


> There are parts I don't agree with and some points I am working with them on to get into committee, reviewed and added/changed,...


 Have them check into sections 11.17.4, .5, and .6 and their associated wiring diagrams. The diagrams are incorrect and Iv'e been seeing incorrectly wired isolation transformers because of this. Installers are going strictly by the diagrams and not reading the text. As an example, they wire an isolation xformer as an isolation system but connect the shore ground to the shield AND the xformer case (according to the diagram). This wiring is done inside the xformer enclosure. Then somebody comes along and connects an external bond wire to one of the xformer's mounting bolts. They have just bypassed the purpose of the isolation system. The shore ground should ONLY be connected to the xformer shield in an isolation system. Sorry, way off topic but this thread is about finished anyway.

Eric


----------



## Maine Sail

KeelHaulin said:


> What I don't understand about ABYC's protocol regarding minimizing flex of solder joints is that it does not also apply to crimped connections; as they also create a "hard/solid joint" where the wire is joined to the connector.


Properly executed crimps, using the correct crimping tool, provide strain relief by design. An insulated crimp of good quality for the marine environment will consist of three pieces and two crimps will be made, one for strain relief clamping down on the jacket, and one on the bare stripped wire.

As a point of interest I have cycled both double crimps and heat shrink crimps over 100 times a full 180 degrees, side to side, with UL 1426 wire, and seen no detrimental effects..


----------



## ulferlingsson

This thread is a little bit odd because it does not discuss when, where, why. I mean, it is like asking, "Is it better to weld or to use bolts?" It depends, doesn't it?

Soldering is excellent for small things, light things, and if done in a well controlled manner. Most bad soldering joints are probably the result of working with inferior equipment, in the field, and without proper training. Dirty connectors, cold solder, etc.

For heavy gauge wire, soldering should not be used. For AWG 20 or finer, with a temperature controlled iron, it is excellent - if heat shrink tubing is applied well outside the joint on both sides, for strain relief. Or use two layers, it's not that expensive!


----------



## knothead

ulferlingsson said:


> This thread is a little bit odd because it does not discuss when, where, why. I mean, it is like asking, "Is it better to weld or to use bolts?" It depends, doesn't it?
> 
> Soldering is excellent for small things, light things, and if done in a well controlled manner. Most bad soldering joints are probably the result of working with inferior equipment, in the field, and without proper training. Dirty connectors, cold solder, etc.
> 
> For heavy gauge wire, soldering should not be used. For AWG 20 or finer, with a temperature controlled iron, it is excellent - if heat shrink tubing is applied well outside the joint on both sides, for strain relief. Or use two layers, it's not that expensive!


My God Man!! Do you have any idea what you've just done?


----------



## ulferlingsson

Yes, expressed my opinion. But why do you call me God?


----------



## mitiempo

LET THIS THREAD DIE!!! 

ABYC standards do not allow a soldered connection unless it is also crimped. 

Ulferlingsson
Your time would be better spent fixing your deck properly instead of worrying about soldering vs crimping.


----------



## ulferlingsson

mitiempo said:


> LET THIS THREAD DIE!!!
> 
> ABYC standards do not allow a soldered connection unless it is also crimped.
> 
> Ulferlingsson
> Your time would be better spent fixing your deck properly instead of worrying about soldering vs crimping.


Hahahah I don't worry one bit, I know perfectly well what I am doing, and as for that deck, the boat has a serious design flaw. Fixing it to as-new condition is just not good enough. ROFL


----------



## rolyat

*Crimp 'em*

Let the thread die? But I just got here, and this is one of the few things I know something about.

I was a marine electrician journeyman and foreman for 12 years at a Naval shipyard specializing in nuclear attack submarine overhauls. These boats are made as bulletproof as humanly possible with back ups to the backups.

We were constrained from soldering anything except for the gold pins and sockets in some of the older multipin connectors. We had to use un-insulated crimp connectors (never red, blue, or yellow insulated connectors) crimped with a Thomas and Betts 110 crimper, then shrink tube went over the crimp with the wire's ID on it. The Navy electrical design engineers decided thus for all the supporting reasons already pointed out here.

Roly


----------



## casioqv

I have some much cheaper alternatives that still offer the same longevity as the method recommended in this thread.

I use a very small bit of solder inside my crimp terminals (but not enough to run down and stiffen the wire). This offers the same benefit and longevity of tinned marine grade wire and connectors, but with much cheaper automotive grade components.

Also- if I'm out of adhesive lined heatshrink, or it's too expensive you can obtain the same benefit by thoroughly coating the terminal in dielectric grease or petroleum jelly before applying the heatshrink. This will displace any free volume inside the connector, and make it impossible for water or oxygen to intrude.

For those of us living inland it's impossible to purchase marine grade electronics on short notice, so improvisation is sometimes required. My connections done with regular auto parts store components have held up long-term in saltwater environments done this way.


----------



## rolyat

*marine vs automotive electrical components*

Cas,
I assume there is heat applied to the bit of solder in the crimp barrel?

Seems reasonable to me, like tinning the connector.

I have dunked wire ends into vaseline before putting on a crimp connector for a long time. I remembered this after I had already posted my comments. dielectric inside a piece of shrink is a good idea.

The fact that selling something as a "Marine" item adds 500% to it's price over "Standard" stuff, be it electrical or otherwise, makes creativity in "marineizing" stuff ones self cost effective. I used 2 ga.welding cable for distributing 12 volt power in my Albin Vega, between batteries, main switch, and distribution panels successfully for years. I tinned connecting ends, heat shrink sealed the insulation cuts, and applied dielectric grease to all the crimp terminals, and ran it all well above the bilge. Worked just fine, and cost many dollars less than fully tinned marine cable. Regular inspections and resistance checking showed up no deterioration in 10 years.

I once had to replace the power cable to a submersible pump in a sump at the bottom of the periscope well in a Sturgeon class submarine. It had been installed with non tinned wire, and the copper strands were corroded into black powder. I would not advise welding cable for this sort of application.

Regards, Roly


----------



## casioqv

rolyat said:


> Cas,
> I assume there is heat applied to the bit of solder in the crimp barrel?


Yes, I'm talking about soldering the wire and terminal together after crimping. The solder has to enter from the terminal end and the amount of heat applied limited, to avoid having it wick down the wire and stiffening it, which will later cause the wire to break.

I'll also mention that I can't find any way to do this when splicing two wires together, as butt connectors are closed in the middle. I think it works fine to splice two wires by twisting them, and soldering- because a free hanging splice doesn't experience the same sort of cracking/bending torque that a flexible wire soldered to a fixed object does.

Perhaps another option would be to drill a small hole in the center of the butt connector and fill it in with solder. I haven't tried this yet.


----------



## Maine Sail

casioqv said:


> I think it works fine to splice two wires by twisting them, and soldering- because a free hanging splice doesn't experience the same sort of cracking/bending torque that a flexible wire soldered to a fixed object does.


Why? Crimping is far more than adequate especially if you use factory made heat shrink crimps.. Also, twisting of wires together, even with solder, is not ABYC E-11 compliant. You don't need to wire to the standard but it is always a good idea especially if you ever go to sell or need an insurance survey. We have a couple of surveyors up this way who will flag solder only connections as "noted" items.


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## casioqv

Maine Sail said:


> Why? Crimping is far more than adequate especially if you use factory made heat shrink crimps..


Because it offers equivalent longevity, at a much lower materials cost. Crimping is not adequate in a marine environment without tinned wire and marine grade terminals unless the connections are also soldered, and sealed.



Maine Sail said:


> Also, twisting of wires together, even with solder, is not ABYC E-11 compliant.


That's probably an important point for people whose boats are worth more than the cost of a survey, but I'm not going to put $2000 worth of wiring into my $800 Catalina 22 when the method I described will last decades.


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## mitiempo

I doubt you could put $2000 worth of wire in a Catalina 22. In Canada I pay $29 for 100' of tinned 14/2. That is at an industrial supplier that will sell to anyone with a $50 minimum. GenuineDealz in the US is higher but still not expensive. Genuinedealz > Marine Wire, Boat Wire, Boat Cable, Marine Grade
I can crimp a butt join with the proper connector and heat shrink it in about the time it takes for your soldering iron to get hot. And then I have a durable, waterproof, compliant connection.


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## casioqv

mitiempo said:


> I doubt you could put $2000 worth of wire in a Catalina 22.


Have you ever heard of West Marine? Just joking, but that's the only place to buy marine grade electronics around here, unless I plan far enough in advance and order online.

Plus- my boat was made with non-tinned wire ran through inaccessible spots and the entire harness is still good after 36 years. It still works great if I use solder inside the crimp terminals, but if I just crimp to them they'll stop conducting in less than a year.

//Edit: You make a good point though about how much quicker/easier pure crimping is. Although I use a heavy duty soldering iron with a large external power supply, and a digital thermostat- and it warms up almost instantly. My method is more work but it's much cheaper, and lasts as long as anything.


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## mitiempo

In this day and age you can order from anywhere promptly. I ordered a part from the UK and received it in 5 days - including a weekend. GenuineDealz is prompt as well and when I purchased my battery cable crimpers from them they arrived in a few days. Both of the above had to cross borders so I look at time frame as a bit of an excuse.
I would think if you just crimped properly and used adhesive heat shrink that the moisture would be kept out indefinitely. It works several hundred feet down a well so should also keep moisture out in a Catalina 22. Tinned is better but most 30 year old boats do not have tinned wire and are still functioning.


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## eherlihy

A friend asked me about crimping vs soldering his coax connections via email. I wanted to point him to SailNet in support of crimping.

Instead, I found this;


DonCasey said:


> *Soldered terminals * On final weak link is the end connectors. The connectors at both ends of the cable should be soldered to the cable. Solder connectors are not difficult to do, but if you don't feel competent to attempt this, do not fall back on crimp connectors as your alternative. Find a hobbyist friend or pay a technician to attach proper solder terminals.
> 
> I like to order cable with at least one terminal already soldered on by the supplier. This is the terminal I put at the masthead, appropriately waterproofed with adhesive-lined heat shrink (my preference), amalgamating tape, or silicone sealant. I feed the bare end through the mast and the boat, soldering on the connector at the radio end. In this way, I have a high level of confidence in the masthead terminal, and one I attach is easily accessible in case I botch the job.
> 
> Over and over we meet fellow cruisers lamenting poor performance of their VHF radios. All it usually takes to avoid this fate are fat wires, fat coax, and soldered terminals.


http://www.sailnet.com/forums/miscellaneous/22190-there-nothing-wrong-your-radio.html
 

Thoughts / Rebuttal?


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## smackdaddy

Solder is for dinosaurs.


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## mitiempo

Easy VHF Connections Photo Gallery by Compass Marine at pbase.com


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## Maine Sail

I use the type where you solder the tip only. These were recommended to me by some of my ham friends. I have seen more bad solder connections of the braid on the coax causing issues, done by both pros and DIY's, that the crimp/solder PL-259's just make more sense.


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## hellosailor

eh-
When you are talking about soldering on a VHF antenna connection, that's _electronic signal_ cables.

Different from _electrical _cables which carry only power, not signals.

In signal cables, especially larger size crimped fittings that are exposed to weather, the signal is easily distorted, corrupted, interrupted by any break in the electrical characteristic of the cable. Soldering is the way to go--if you can make a clean solder joint. When you've got an RF signal in an antenna cable, everything, including the number of connectors and their physical size (mainly diameter) in relation to the cable they are in, changes signal quality.

The problem with soldering VHF coax connectors (PL-259, SO-239, whatever you want to refer to them by) is that unless you are spot on with the soldering, you melt the inner insulator and short out the cable. Or, you don't heat the outer connector and don't bond to the shield. There are very few people who have soldered these cables without screwing up the first couple of attempts, unless they've done soldering before. (And even then, there are "better" are worse ways to get the job done.)

I will use crimp-on coax connectors, and have seen a number of clever patented variations (like a gold "claw" design, I think from Shakespeare), when I have to. That means at a masthead, or as a spare while in motion and bouncing around without a good means of soldering. But a properly made solder connection on a coax fitting is not subject to any physical stress, the coax fitting itself strain-relieves the cable.

I'd say the crimp-on ones are more likely to be done workably up front, less likely to _be perfect and stay that way_ for the long run.

Very different from crimping on battery cables or power leads.

You haven't hit any contradiction about when to solder and when to crimp, you've just hit a boundary between "_electrical _power" and "_electronics _signal".


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## fairbank56

There is so much BS about this subject, it is sickening. I'm a marine electronics service technician and have been doing this for 35 years. I have installed hundreds of both crimp type and solder type or combination thereof, of coax connectors. Neither is "better", IF using quality connectors, the proper method of installation, the proper tools and proper weatherproofing technique. It is rare for me to find one installed properly by the do-it-yourselfer or inexperienced/improperly taught pro. It is amazing to me how many improperly installed coax connectors there are in the marine world. It's a common problem that will never go away.

I recommend that you do not use the Shakespeare gold center-pin coax connectors. I have replaced a ridiculous number of these due to failure of the shield connection. There's a whole pile of used ones sitting in my shop. I have more info on this problem with pictures if anyone is interested.

Eric


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## Patient

fairbank56 said:


> There is so much BS about this subject, it is sickening. I'm a marine electronics service technician and have been doing this for 35 years. I have installed hundreds of both crimp type and solder type or combination thereof, of coax connectors. Neither is "better", IF using quality connectors, the proper method of installation, the proper tools and proper weatherproofing technique. It is rare for me to find one installed properly by the do-it-yourselfer or inexperienced/improperly taught pro. It is amazing to me how many improperly installed coax connectors there are in the marine world. It's a common problem that will never go away.
> 
> I recommend that you do not use the Shakespeare gold center-pin coax connectors. I have replaced a ridiculous number of these due to failure of the shield connection. There's a whole pile of used ones sitting in my shop. I have more info on this problem with pictures if anyone is interested.
> 
> Eric


My question is what situation calls for use of either or?

I have seen numerous posts on the _correct_ procedure for both types of fittings, but never a clear and present explanation of _when_ to either one.

Don't be so harsh on the DIYers, sometimes the motivation is just to have a better understanding of whats behind the panels rather than cost effectiveness. I think when I am at that part of prepping I will use the consultation of someone in your profession mixed with a healthy serving of DIY as well. You get the best of both worlds that way.

Lastly, thanks to everyone for their musing on the subject, the thread has given purpose to a glass of Brandy.


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## fairbank56

Patient said:


> My question is what situation calls for use of either or?


 It's mostly just personal preference but there may be instances where you'd use one over the other such as where your in a tight space and can't really move the connector/cable around enough to solder properly but you can get your crimp tools in there. It can be difficult to solder at the top of a sailboat mast. Crimp tools can be very expensive although for those interested, Mouser sells a decent crimp tool kit for $79. That's a great deal considering the 5 dies you get with it.

Eric


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## delan

We build nightclubs.
Our sound engineer solders every connection that carries audio signal, these connections spend their lives in an air conditioned Amp room, no physical abuse, no load, we just want the cleanest path with the least resistance.

Our sound engineer also sails, we use ancor crimp connectors, with a ratcheting crimp tool and gelled heatshrink on every connection that carries power.


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## Sundownsailing

*Sealant Heatshrink tubing*

Properly sized heatshrink tubing with a properly crimped marine grade ring terminal is my vote. (I will also investigate the ratcheting crimping tool)


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## btrayfors

In a properly executed crimp, there's nothing to fill.

A good ratchet crimper, like the Greenlee series, creates a *solid mass of copper * inside the lug. If you cut one in half with a hack saw, you'll see nothing but solid copper. Looks like a solid copper rod.

I'd post a pic, but I hate the Sailnet pic posting routine. WHY CANT THEY FIX IT, like Cruiser's Forum or SSCA???

Anyway, adhesive heat shrink is faster and makes a good waterproof connection. The liquid stuff is very messy.

Bill


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## btrayfors

OK, here you go. I put the pix on my website.

Click, "next" at the bottom right to progress thru the series.

Bill

DSC_0024c


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## deniseO30

Cool.. could pass for a soldered joint! So very tight that the wire will eventually flex at the end of the connector and strands will break. (here we go again) lol I still like solder. only because I have so much soldering equipment on hand from many years in the hvac trade. 
I really like the solder pellets the Genuine deals sells. 
And here we have the HF tools


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## Maine Sail

btrayfors said:


> OK, here you go. I put the pix on my website.
> 
> Click, "next" at the bottom right to progress thru the series.
> 
> Bill
> 
> DSC_0024c


You mean this:









Just use this feature









and paste your image location into the pop up box being sure not to duplicate http://...

And here's some more pics...


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## Ray Drummond

*crimping/ soldering*

hi; 
suggestion;
ever thought about doing both? works real good.
capt.Ray


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## Maine Sail

Ray Drummond said:


> hi;
> suggestion;
> ever thought about doing both? works real good.
> capt.Ray


Has been discussed at length, in this thread...


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## tom_beckstedt

I'm working on my cal 25 just bought , had some ground ishews found the problems were crimp conectors not properly crimped or viberation, I see a lot of this in the automotive industry over the past 35 years.
The reason that a wire might break before or after a solder joint is when soldering your getting the wire to hot witch causes the wire to get brittle. Here is what I use *solderseal but splice conectors* you can buy at Amazon. All you need to due is heat it up with a heat gun, it solders and seals it all in one. you can buy a heat gun at harbor freight for 14dollors.


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## Maine Sail

tom_beckstedt said:


> I'm working on my cal 25 just bought , had some ground ishews found the problems were crimp conectors not properly crimped or viberation, I see a lot of this in the automotive industry over the past 35 years.
> The reason that a wire might break before or after a solder joint is when soldering your getting the wire to hot witch causes the wire to get brittle. Here is what I use *solderseal but splice conectors* you can buy at Amazon. All you need to due is heat it up with a heat gun, it solders and seals it all in one. you can buy a heat gun at harbor freight for 14dollors.


And products like those are why the ABYC prohibits solder as the sole means of mechanical connection... Please be careful...

Remember that solder is engineered to be flowing a temps below the burning of plastic. This means in a high resistance situation your solder can melt BEFORE the jacket lights on fire and release the wire so you now have a live dangling hot wire to short out on something. If using those I would not recommend pushing your fusing to the wires max ampacity for OCP.


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## fishermanjoe1

Hey guys... what is the absolute very best heat shrink crimper I can buy... I want a very, very good one... top of the line... thanks


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## saillife

I like my WM ratcheting crimper. Has replaceable jaws for various types of conectors.


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## fishermanjoe1

Maine Sail, I would really value your opinion on which HEAT SHRINK CRIMPERS you think are the best... I have read your article many times... I bought the pair from sailor solutions.... They are nice, but I would like a really, really great pair. (for heat shrink only) I also bought the AMP T-Head Crimpers not realizing that they were not for heat shrink Terminals and Butt Connectors. (oops that was an expensive mistake) LOL.... So if your out there Maine Sail.... I would greatly appreciate your advice...


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## Maine Sail

fishermanjoe1 said:


> Maine Sail, I would really value your opinion on which HEAT SHRINK CRIMPERS you think are the best... I have read your article many times... I bought the pair from sailor solutions.... They are nice, but I would like a really, really great pair. (for heat shrink only) I also bought the AMP T-Head Crimpers not realizing that they were not for heat shrink Terminals and Butt Connectors. (oops that was an expensive mistake) LOL.... So if your out there Maine Sail.... I would greatly appreciate your advice...


Actually the t-head works fine if you set the strain relief to its highest setting. I modified my t-head so the "stop" was no longer there. I can now do butts with it too but you need to be careful how you insert them. I've yet to have the t-head rip the insulation on a heat shrink crimp and the t-head does a beautiful job..


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## SVTatia

Following Maine Sail's hint, I bought the Proskit with the proper die for insulated terminals.
Excellent tool and a pretty good deal.

Pro-Crimper Frame [CP-371] - $30.53 : Pro'sKit


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## fishermanjoe1

Maine Sail.... Thankyou so much for your replay....I know this is an old thread and has been beat to death, BUT it is new too me and I am just learning to do it right... Ive been doing it very wrong for years and I really like to do things right... I considered cutting the stop off of the T-Head crimpers, but I didnt do it because I wasnt sure if the crimping surface was wide enough, with enough surface area for the delicate heat shrink terminals... But if thats the way you do it, then I am more than comfortable doing it that way too.... But I still need a pair for the Yellow connectors....SVTatia Said you recommended the Pro'sKit frame and die.... I know this is an older post, so is the Pro'sKit frame and die still your go to crimper for heat shrink if your T-Head isnt around... I want a great quality pair for heat shrink.... I thought maybe AMP or another hi quality (t and B) manufacturer might make a pair.... I want to buy one last pair and be done... I will have my Moidfied T-Head crimpers, My sailors Solution crimpers, and whatever this last recommendation from you is.... Thankyou so much for your time...I have read many, many of your articles... I have even bought the BUTYL (six rolls)... It is very obvious that you care about and do great quality work... I respect and value you opinion very much... Thankyou for your articles and your help here...


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## fishermanjoe1

SVTatia.... Thankyou as well for your reply.... I was going to buy those but thought since its an older post maybe some new light my have been shed... I do value Maine Sails opinion very much... Lets see if these are still his number one pick for heat shrink, or if he has found a pair he likes better.... I will say this though.... The Pro'sKit is one hell of a value if they do a Hi quality job.... They almost seem to good to be true at that price... Thanks your your post.... SO since you use this one, are you happy with the proskits consistency and crimp quality? Thank you as well for your opinion and help...


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## Maine Sail

fishermanjoe1 said:


> Maine Sail.... Thankyou so much for your replay....I know this is an old thread and has been beat to death, BUT it is new too me and I am just learning to do it right... Ive been doing it very wrong for years and I really like to do things right... I considered cutting the stop off of the T-Head crimpers, but I didnt do it because I wasnt sure if the crimping surface was wide enough, with enough surface area for the delicate heat shrink terminals... But if thats the way you do it, then I am more than comfortable doing it that way too.... But I still need a pair for the Yellow connectors....SVTatia Said you recommended the Pro'sKit frame and die.... I know this is an older post, so is the Pro'sKit frame and die still your go to crimper for heat shrink if your T-Head isnt around... I want a great quality pair for heat shrink.... I thought maybe AMP or another hi quality (t and B) manufacturer might make a pair.... I want to buy one last pair and be done... I will have my Moidfied T-Head crimpers, My sailors Solution crimpers, and whatever this last recommendation from you is.... Thankyou so much for your time...I have read many, many of your articles... I have even bought the BUTYL (six rolls)... It is very obvious that you care about and do great quality work... I respect and value you opinion very much... Thankyou for your articles and your help here...


Yes the Pro's Kit is a decent tool but the cheaper ones from Sailors Solutions, Ancor or others make a _slightly_ stronger crimp. I have been bugging the owner of Pro's Kit to do a heat shrink terminal die that is better suited and "slightly" smaller for a stronger crimp. They just launched an MC4 crimp die so they do progress... If using FTZ Crimp--n-Seal terminals they Pro's Kit works well. The die on the AMP is much wider than most tools...

You can't go wrong with a Pro's Kit tool as the crimp frame will take numerous dies. I have about 6-7 sets for mine and a few frames. Everything from MC4, BNC, PL259's etc. etc...


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## SVTatia

fishermanjoe1 said:


> .... SO since you use this one, are you happy with the proskits consistency and crimp quality? ...


I am very satisfied with the ProsKit. Even if the crimp is slightly less strong than others, it satisfies my need with the quality and consistency.

As MaineSail said, you can't go wrong with them


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## fishermanjoe1

Thankyou VSTatia and Maine Sail.... I really appreciate your input and experience... I am going to buy the Pro's Kit..... It looks like a very nice piece for the price.... Im sure that I will be very happy with it... I use the 3M connectors... Ive read that they are not quite a thick (the copper barrel) as the Ancor connectors, but I have inherited about 1500 connectors and I hate not to use them... They are tinned and seamless..I hope they are a good quality connector.... Maybe not quite as good as the Ancor connectors, but still a quality connector.... They seem to do pretty well... I just hope they take the beating that a boat gives them.... Thanks guys...


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## Brent Swain

As stranded wire tends to wick water along its full length over time. Letting the solder wick under the insulation, then soaking the end with liquid electrical tape, seals the end much better. That is why I prefer solid single strand wire, below decks ,which I have had zero problem with over the last 28 years. Most stranded wire I've pulled out of boats was corroded and turned black over its entire length. One guy on another site said his solid wire is in perfect condition after 45 years, something I've never seen stranded wire do.
Solid wire has problems outside, when the insulation and vibration break it down. Black insulation is far more UV resistant.


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## fishermanjoe1

Hey Brent... I agree with you that the black is much better with UV.... The same holds true with zip ties, zippers and thread on any canvas work.... I have and industrial sewing machine and do all of my own canvas work.... I use only black thread and zippers.... and dont use nylon in the sun.... Poly does much, much better in the sun that nylon...


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## Maine Sail

Solid wire for boat building is not only prohibited under the ABYC standards but is also specifically prohibited under US federal law in the Code of Federal Regulations.. 

Transport Canada Marine Standards also require "stranded" not solid wire.

Use at your own risk...


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## xort

Maine Sail said:


> the cheaper ones from Sailors Solutions, .


I surfed the SS website and could not find a ratcheting crimper. looked in electrical and in tools but didn't see one...

I need a crimper for heat shrink terminals


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## Maine Sail

xort said:


> I surfed the SS website and could not find a ratcheting crimper. looked in electrical and in tools but didn't see one...
> 
> I need a crimper for heat shrink terminals


*Sailors Solutions Crimp Tool*

or

*Pro's Kit Pro Frame*

and the die

*Single Crimp Die*


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## chef2sail

I have the pro-crimper Maine is recommending. Great tool. I actually have two, one for the boat and one at home/

Pro-Crimper Frame [CP-371] - $30.53 : Pro'sKit

Dave


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## Maine Sail

chef2sail said:


> I have the pro-crimper Maine is recommending. Great tool. I actually have two, one for the boat and one at home/
> 
> Pro-Crimper Frame [CP-371] - $30.53 : Pro'sKit
> 
> Dave


It's a very good value plus you can buy about 30 different dies for it... You don't even want to know how many crimp tools I own.... Hell I think I've lost count....


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## fishermanjoe1

Maine Sail, I hope I dont upset you here.... But if you had to pick a crimper that is made specifically for heat shrink connectors, and nothing else.... What would you say is the absolute very best one... Money no object.... Not the T-head, but one made just for Heat shrink.... Is there any that stands above the rest? I hope Im not being annoying... Thanks Joe


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## xort

I was sure I looked at the >electric>tools page and did not see that crimper!

thnx!


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## Barrosa

newbie to this community joined here to share my knowledge and also to get more new ideas and suggestions from this community


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## captrice

OK!! OK!! I hearyou guy's but 40 years later my properly soldered terminals conduct better and have never failed me. Although properly crimped terminels work fine too.
I'm probably dealimg with a lot larger guage wire on a powe boat working with Cat. and Detroit Diesel's and I'm also open minded about things that work well. Pick and choose your choice,


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## smresq

Many good replies and advice...

Thanks,


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## Happy Mullet

I have added dipping the end of the wire into dielectric (silicon) grease or squeezing a small amount into each end of the crimp / splice; on the notion that it keeps water and corrosion out as a secondary defense; in addition to the other good ideas before this. It's easy and quick-may do nothing more than make me feel better?


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## asdf38

Happy Mullet said:


> I have added dipping the end of the wire into dielectric (silicon) grease or squeezing a small amount into each end of the crimp / splice; on the notion that it keeps water and corrosion out as a secondary defense; in addition to the other good ideas before this. It's easy and quick-may do nothing more than make me feel better?


Dialectric grease is an insulator. I don't think it's advisable to dip the wires in it before crimping. Squeezing it in afterward may be helpful except if you have adhesive lined heat shrink, in which case it seems like it would prevent a good bond.


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## mitiempo

Dielectric grease (which is an insulator as posted above) adds nothing to a good crimp done properly with heatshrink.


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## LinekinBayCD

mitiempo said:


> Dielectric grease (which is an insulator as posted above) adds nothing to a good crimp done properly with heatshrink.


Does anyone use a "conductive" grease in their crimps? This is a link to the one sold by sailors solution:

LED lighting, soundproof, Sailor's Solutions Inc.

I've never used it but I'm thinking it would help with the corrosion issue but reduce the mechanical strenth of the crimp because of a reduction in friction?


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## desert rat

crimp it, then solder it, then heat shrink, then use heat shrink tape. It is best to do it right the first time.


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