# EU duties that may affect us sailors personally



## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

The duty on American goods going into the EU came out today. 
There are tons of restrictions on stainless steel, and metals in general, which may affect the cost of yachts and yacht parts from Europe, but these were a shocker.
I have no doubt that the "master negotiator" will retaliate, so if you are thinking of buying boat parts or a boat from the EU, you'd better hurry.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Simply insane. Lose-lose for everyone. 

At least playing cards are only 10%. I wasn’t aware that the playing card lobby was so influential. :|


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

I thought that I read that sailboats were also on the list of proposed tariffs in Canada. Does anyone know if that is true?


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Scotty C-M said:


> I thought that I read that sailboats were also on the list of proposed tariffs in Canada. Does anyone know if that is true?


Yes, not just sailboats, all American made boats.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Scotty C-M said:


> I thought that I read that sailboats were also on the list of proposed tariffs in Canada. Does anyone know if that is true?


Yup, apparently it's a 10% tariff on:


Inflatable boats
Sailboats, with or without auxiliary motor
Motorboats, other than outboard motorboats
Outboard motorboats, other vessels for pleasure or sport

Trudeau's retaliatory tariffs may threaten recreational boating in Canada | CBC News


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Does this just affect boats imported for resale and/or permanent importation by landed immigrants? Or would a temporary visitor arriving on his American made sailboat have to pay a 25% tariff on his vessel just to visit?

I hope this trade war is as easy to win as we’ve been promised. :|


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

TakeFive said:


> I hope this trade war is as easy to win as we've been promised. :|


I am suspect not all members of this Canadian site share your sentiments on the subject.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

I guess I better buy that new Oyster now before it gets out of my price range.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

A quick look also showed SS screws, etc, so perhaps that will mean all metric items of this sort. I don't know if the US produces metric stuff.
http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2018/may/tradoc_156909.pdf
I haven't seen the Canadian list yet.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

capta said:


> I haven't seen the Canadian list yet.


http://www.canadianbusiness.com/eco...ould-be-hit-with-canadas-retaliatory-tariffs/


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

Seems pretty complete. Why the gherkins?


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

Gherkins are raised and picked by brown people. Of course we'll put a tariff on them! Haven't you seen the first lady's jacket. The new mantra for the U.S.A. " Really don't care". The sad thing is that the orangutan herd probably thinks all this is a good idea.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

The USA is the only Western country that gives a damn about low skilled manufacturing jobs.

I think it's great! 

The EU is a stuffed socialist state and won't exist in 10 years. 

As for Canada... They areucky to have the USA next door.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

Capt Len said:


> Seems pretty complete. Why the gherkins?


Unlike Trump's willy-nilly tariffs, which mainly effect forms of aluminum and steel we do not produce in the US, the EU & Canada (and I assume Mexico) are targeting industries in the states that support Trump. Bourbon, for instance, is a Kentucky product, for the most part, the home of Mitch McConnell.
These are not tariffs just by whim. The folks in charge in the EU & Canada understand our system much better than most Americans (including those who support this idiocy, apparently), so they will affect maximum economic and political damage in the Trump supported states. And just in time for the November elections, it seems.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> As for Canada... They areucky to have the USA next door.


A new Canadian Proverb.

With neighbors like this who needs enemies?


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Capt Len said:


> Seems pretty complete. Why the gherkins?


It's just symbolic, nobody eats gherkins.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

jephotog said:


> A new Canadian Proverb.
> 
> With neighbors like this who needs enemies?


They certainly don't have to defend themselves. If any country invaded the US would have to step in.

That type of thing can have an advantage being taken...


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> They certainly don't have to defend themselves. If any country invaded the US would have to step in.
> 
> That type of thing can have an advantage being taken...


Proportionately, the Canadian Military is nearly identical in size to the Australian.

Canada pop: 36 million, military 79000.

Australia: pop 24 million, Military 58000.

I agree there are some advantages to living in Canada, like having Florida to vacation in, but Australia has Australia to vacation in, so...

:2 boat:


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> They certainly don't have to defend themselves. If any country invaded the US would have to step in.


I don't doubt anything under his current administration. If Canada could somehow put a tariff on Trump Properties, I think the border's security would be less certain. First step would be the US Space Force would wipe out Canada's entire Space Fleet.


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## RegisteredUser (Aug 16, 2010)

How to ruin a thread....fast.
Fk the obsessed....their mindless sht is just plain old.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

In the interest of retaliatory National Security ,foreign flagged vessels enteron Canada will be retricted to their Canadian port of entry until clearing customs ,which will surely take several weeks. Any repositioning request may be obtained by applying in person in Ottawa and having payed the required fee ,be allowed to move the vessel ,using a registered Canadian pilot . Monies collected will be used to fund a wall on the 49'th .Said Wall will control transfer of Canadian dairy products thereby reducing local prices. The same will apply to forest products ,reducing local prices and increasing profits from offshore sales.. 48 % of the oil used by America will now go to China. earning Canada an extra 16 billion a year. Canadian sailors only have to learn to sail offshore to Mexico ,an easy task, to avoid the expected retaliatory reaction from them damm yanks. Canuks will STAND UP TO BULLIES. WE helped both Pakistan and India to develope nukes and no biggie to join the club. Want Crazy?? Respect? Frack you!!


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Arcb said:


> Proportionately, the Canadian Military is nearly identical in size to the Australian.
> 
> Canada pop: 36 million, military 79000.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. Australia hadn't had 2% GDP since the Vietnam War because of the ANZUS Treaty meant Uncle Sam would cone running to help... 
... Untill Indonesia took over East a Timor and the Americans said they like a Indonesia and they would not pressure them. That's when we realised we had to pull our own weight but by then it was 2 late... We had scrapped our 2 aircraft carriers And the planes for them AND the pilots.

We bought 100 tanks. Yes 100. In 1976.

Yes I agree with the US telling NATO members to pay up. And the UN.

As for boats, Australia taxes every American boat sold in Auatralia: 10% GST and a 5% Luxury Tax.

That the US has been too stupid in previous "Free Trade" deals doesn't meant they were right.

And now people criticising Trump for doing exactly what he said he would do if elected.

China, EU and Canada are pushing back because they have a lot to lose. But there's other countries out there that will do fair deals: Brazil, in fact all of South America ex Venezuela and Cuba,... Plus India and a stack of the rest of Asia, Africa etc etc etc.

Mark


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Haters gonna hate. This is merely a political thread, not an intelligent economic one. I’m no fan of T, but no one can argue the international trade tariff landscape was just fine, when he got there. You might not like his methods, but I’ll give him credit for taking on the issue everyone else punted, or blatantly screwed up.

Zero tariffs worldwide would make the most sense, if viewed through the lens of the most competitive product wins. However, enter any country that tries to protect their industry and it becomes tit for tat. There are no innocent developed countries. None. The current admin did not start this, it’s simply forcing a do over. None of these specific tariffs are going to be the final answer. I think there are more artful ways of going about it, but it was necessary.


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

I think some folks are forgetting a simple truth: everyone involved in a trade war gets hurt. There are no winners. There are only losers, and bigger losers.

Not being the biggest loser doesn't make someone the winner...


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

It's a little disingenuous of Trump to toss out the idea of saying everyone should go to zero tariffs. The USA has a huge number of tariffs on a whole range of products from countries and regions all over the world. Tariffs are in place to achieve all sorts of national and international purposes. It's not a simple issue, and not exclusively about trade and economics (as shown by Trumps steel/Al tariffs which are specifically about national security).

Here's the US government database where you can look them all up: https://hts.usitc.gov

As I watch all this tit-for-tat tariffs and twitters, it makes me wonder if Canada should reverse its decision to _not_ become a nuclear power. Canada certainly has the technology and capability. As a nation, we decided NOT to develop such weapons of mass destruction following WWII (and have banned all such weapons on our soil since the 1980s).

Given Trump's appreciate for strong authoritarians with nucs, maybe we should go this route as well.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I don’t see anyone arguing all trade policies and tariffs were working just fine as is. Only the ones they liked, or got used to. I doubt most even understand them. The truth is, the system needs a reset once in a while. Every country tries to protect their own, but productivity, innovation and other factors change over time and alter the basis for the original policy. Some argue they should be negotiated diplomatically. I give you a little, you give me a little. Often that “little” wasn’t even trade, it was defense or humanitarian aid, or withdrawal of missles near ones shore. This method has moved the ball back and forth on the field for centuries. Virtually, none of what is being done in this trade war will be the final outcome. They are simply the chess moves. 

T is going for a full reset. He’s taking the ball and going for the touchdown, when no one else is willing to. It’s distasteful and he is pretty easy to dislike. Maybe that’s the ironic silver lining here. We all need to go through this reset and we have the perfect scapegoat to blame for it. Everyone hates him. Me too. However, I’m giving him the badge of courage for taking this one on.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

However, this maybe his downfall as it directly has disastrous effects on his base. The Wally World crowd will pay more for 90% of what’s in Walmart and the 1%ers in agribusiness are already taking a huge hit as seen in soy futures. He boasts of how well the economy is doing but looking at the indexes the investor class knows better with poor ytd performance even before the trade war started.
He is getting heavy blowback in the senate from republicans on this issue. Imho right move would have been for us to buy yuan to match the Chinese purchase of dollars, go to trade commission to declare current need for US companies to work through a Chinese partner illegal and target companies that steal intellect property much like North Korea targeted Disney but do it on the QT. While doing this our trading partners would be aware things are changing so one by one renegotiate our trade deals.


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## thelibrarian (May 3, 2018)

It seems maybe due to size and shipping that most boats in the US are US manufacturers anyway and vice versa. Despite US making much cheaper boats. While there is little difference in the divide between the haves and have nots European boats seem pricier and higher end. The wealthy in the US who are spending more on a benteneau don't care as much about the price (though you do care I know) and might be pleased to spend more on their status symbol and europeans don't seem to want affordable boats anyway. Maybe this was a category picked because there wasn't a huge transatlantic market to begin with so they can say they're doing something without having any real effect which is best for politick. It's also safer to attack the luxury goods and those in the minority like boaters.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

^^^ It's Canada that is planning on targeting US boat manufacturing, and Canadians do buy a lot of US manufactured boats, especially power boats.

Like folks have mentioned, it may or may not last, but I doubt many US boat manufacturers will be thrilled about surrendering the Canadian market to European boats.


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## capta (Jun 27, 2011)

thelibrarian said:


> It seems maybe due to size and shipping that most boats in the US are US manufacturers anyway and vice versa. Despite US making much cheaper boats. While there is little difference in the divide between the haves and have nots European boats seem pricier and higher end. The wealthy in the US who are spending more on a benteneau don't care as much about the price (though you do care I know) and might be pleased to spend more on their status symbol and europeans don't seem to want affordable boats anyway. Maybe this was a category picked because there wasn't a huge transatlantic market to begin with so they can say they're doing something without having any real effect which is best for politick. It's also safer to attack the luxury goods and those in the minority like boaters.


I think boats in Europe are more expensive because every boat in the EU pays at least the 15% EU VAT. 
I've never paid a dime in taxes on my boat and doubt I ever will. The only place I've ever paid any sort of tax on a boat was Charleston, where I had to pay an excise tax, but it was minimal because it was my home.
Europeans are taxed to death in the eyes of Americans, but they get some pretty substantial returns from those taxes, unlike Americans who get almost nothing back from their federal taxes.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

My boat was made in mainland China as is Passport. Bene has a US plant to the best of my recollection. Many inflatables are Canadian made. Most Kanter output is sold in the US I believe as is Covey Island. No just a stupid way to approach this problem.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Fine by me, if trade deals get reset properly and he is removed from office. Win, win. 

His approach and demeanor may take him down, but no voter is going to be able to tell what impact he had on Wally World prices. Folks will just make the claim. At present, the economy is a strength for him. After such an prolonged recovery, there is little doubt we’re reaching the top. I don’t think one can point to slowing returns and increased stock market volatility, among continued growth, as a fault. Volatility is a return to normal. It would take a recession to remove the economy from his column, which seems unlikely in the near future.

In all seriousness, I think his single greatest advantage is how exaggerated his opponents are, over everything he does. Some of what he does is truly dumb, but when an exaggerated argument is made, the independent believes the whole argument must be wrong and the conservatives gets more incensed to defend him. See 2018.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I would never pretend to understand the intricacies of international trade, but according to most economic thinkers (most of whom are not lefties), neither does Trump.

The reason the USA buys more from places like China is due to market efficiencies - mostly cheap labour and inexpensive transportation (=cheap oil). This is specifically how free market capitalism is _designed_ to work. It's an international order promulgated by the USA and the West in general. This is why it is so fascinating to see the Republican Party line up behind Trump's actions (at least publicly). After all, isn't the GOP supposed to be the big "free market" party?

I don't think Trump is seeking a reset of out-of-whack international trade systems. He doesn't want fair trade. He wants trade where most of the benefits accrue to the USA. This is not fair trade. This is more like the old colonial systems which pillaged the colonies for the betterment of the homeland.

...Didn't this kind of approach lead to some sort of rebellion or war of independence?


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Minnewaska said:


> They are simply the chess moves.
> 
> T is going for a full reset. He's taking the ball and going for the touchdown, when no one else is willing to. It's distasteful and he is pretty easy to dislike. Maybe that's the ironic silver lining here. We all need to go through this reset and we have the perfect scapegoat to blame for it. Everyone hates him. Me too. However, I'm giving him the badge of courage for taking this one on.


A very wise post.

But I see him as vastly beneficial. But often the 're-setters', mavericks, those well before their time, and Season Reason or a Lifetime, will not be recognised it for decades. Maybe never.

T may be the President you needed to have....

Just glad he's in for 8 years :devil :devil :devil


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> I would never pretend to understand the intricacies of international trade, but according to most economic thinkers (most of whom are not lefties), neither does Trump.
> 
> ...Didn't this kind of approach lead to some sort of rebellion or war of independence?


First statement response: what if Trump (generally) does know what he is doing? Remember the pundits have never actually done anything except pundit....

Second statement: yes the American War of Independance started as a trade imbalance. The people being screwed over rebelled and went war and.... Won.

So it is important. 
There won't be war with Canada, China or Mexico but yes we will see some shake ups to end all shake ups! 
Chiba is too big to change quickly, EU too stupid... And Canada doesn't realise the USA is serious.


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

Taking a unilateral wrecking ball to international trade structures, while barely pretending to be trying to renegotiate them instead, hardly qualifies as 'resetting' IMHO. I personally don't foresee any good ending for what Trump is doing.

And he's definitely misusing and abusing Section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act of 1962, which allows the president to adjust imports without a vote by Congress should the Department of Commerce find evidence of a national-security threat from foreign shipments. Apparently Wilbur Ross, the pet poodle Trump installed as his Secretary of Commerce, is willing to certify that damnnear any and all imports somehow qualify as a threat to national security...


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## contrarian (Sep 14, 2011)

Yeah Trump really understands economics. That's how he was so successful at bankrupting a frigging Casino. Nothing seems to satisfy his enormous ego. He's playing chess alright but the game he's playing is to get re-elected. He's counting on being able to stay in the game until the next election so that he can blast extremely terrific hyperbole to his base regarding all his terrific accomplishments. A reset of the trade policies would only be a bandaid for the enormous gash that the U.S. manufacturing sector has developed over the last 50 years. This type of deception masks the real challenges and issues that we as a people are faced with. Trump has proved to be a master at this deception. The ultimate opportunistic, narcissistic predator. Perhaps these traits will somehow be beneficial to the U.S.A. After all, I often hear people say that God works in mysterious ways. He may inadvertently stumble over the "goal line" so to speak. In all fairness to him I have to admit that I don't think he's any worse than what the other alternative to him would have been but that's certainly not saying much. O.K. rant over.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> First statement response: what if Trump (generally) does know what he is doing? Remember the pundits have never actually done anything except pundit....


Not pundits, serious economist. Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke, the list is endless:




> "Over 1,100 leading economists sent a letter to President Donald Trump urging the president to reverse course on recent trade tactics - lest the US repeat one of the biggest mistakes of the Great Depression."




It's certainly possible Trump is right and the rest of the world is wrong, but if I were a bettin' man, I'd not take those odds.



MarkofSeaLife said:


> Second statement: yes the American War of Independance started as a trade imbalance. The people being screwed over rebelled and went war and.... Won.
> 
> So it is important.
> There won't be war with Canada, China or Mexico but yes we will see some shake ups to end all shake ups!
> Chiba is too big to change quickly, EU too stupid... And Canada doesn't realise the USA is serious.


The USA is, by far, the biggest player on the playground. I think it's quite simple; Trump is used to bullying his way to victory, and he is going to use the USA's outsized advantage to try and force the rest of the world to kowtow to his demands. This is why he doesn't like multilateral trade deals like NAFTA or the TPP. This just brings more countervailing power to the table. He wants to dominate, not negotiate. In his own words, he wants USA First trade, which is clearly not fair trade. This is why he favours bilateral agreements. There is no single country that can stand up to the USA.

He can possibly succeed - at least for a short while. But people will not bend easily. And it will diminish us all.

Trump operates on the idea that people, or countries, will accept some benefits from trade, even though the lions share will go to the USA. This is a flawed reading of human psychology. It is well known that people, when faced with obvious unfairness, will accept damage to their own situation as long as it hurts the one being unfair. This is why countries and regions with some ability to push back ARE pushing back - even though it harms them (us) as much or more than it will hurt the USA.

In the medium to longer term this will force is a reshaping of the global power dynamic. The USA will proceed with its _Pax Americana_ agenda, and the rest of the world that is strong enough to resist will coalesce into some sort of counter force. I don't think this is a positive development for the globe.


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

Yesterday, Trump again threatened to place a 20% tariff on European cars. I can't wait to hear him and good ol' Wilbur explain how Mercedes, Audi and BMW are a threat to our national security - which is the only legal justification he has for imposing the tariffs himself, instead of asking Congress to do it.

Congress never intended to cede its power to regulate foreign trade to the President. That law was intended to provide temporary flexibility for handling fast-moving trade events that create a genuine threat to the country's security . It wasn't intended to be a fig leaf that gives the President the power to single-handedly dictate the country's trade policies.

"...trade wars are good, and easy to win."
Donald Trump on Twitter, Mar 2, 2018

I think he and his devotees are in for a shock...


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> And Canada doesn't realise the USA is serious.


We will see. I notice there hasnt been talk of tariffs on clean cheap Quebec Hydro.


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

Trump ain’t no chess player. Checkers, at best, but more likely Russian roulette.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

MikeOReilly said:


> Not pundits, serious economist. Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke, the list is endless:
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-tariffs-trade-war-great-depression-mistake-2018-5?op=1
> 
> ...


Surprisingly, you will notice we agree on almost everything except I like Trump and you don't.

That's modern politics. 40, 50 years ago we liked are own guy and respected the other guy. 
But now, since Nixon(?) we only like our guy and hate everyone else. Nixon I think because of Vietnam moritoriums and Watergate... Those 2 changed the 'world' for the USA. Other countries followed.

Mark


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## TakeFive (Oct 22, 2009)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Surprisingly, you will notice we agree on almost everything except I like Trump and you don't.
> 
> That's modern politics. 40, 50 years ago we liked are own guy and respected the other guy.
> But now, since Nixon(?) we only like our guy and hate everyone else. Nixon I think because of Vietnam moritoriums and Watergate... Those 2 changed the 'world' for the USA. Other countries followed.
> ...


I don't think it was Nixon. There was continuing bipartisanship under Ford, Carter, Reagan and Bush41. I think the tribalism started with Gingrich in early '90s. The Senate continued to be collegial, but that eroded fast when Teddy Kennedy died. @chef2sail has interesting behind-the-scenes insights on Teddy's bipartisan influence, as well as other major players in present day government.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

They say insanity is doing the sane thing and expecting a different result. Can anyone here name an example of a trade war which had a successful result? Or a successful outcome from trickle down economics or long term success for a totally managed economy be it fascist, totalitarian or communist. 
The second largest economy clearly isn’t playing fair but as noted in the earlier post we have multiple ways other than a trade war to respond. We won the Cold War by just outspending Russia not by sending off icbms. We will win this economic battle by statecraft and outmaneuvering our opponents via multiple available avenues not this clumsy approach. 
There are multiple swords hanging over our heads-trade imbalance, national debt, continued imbalance between revenue and expenditure, lack of increase in productivity. Both parties have wimped to their disgrace. Some of the mavericks like Paul have raised these issues but the fix will cause pain and unlikely hamper reelection so the can keeps being kicked. Agree it’s laudable that trade is being addressed abet in the wrong fashion. However current trade isn’t as harmful as the other unaddressed issues.


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

A number of thoughts:
A tariff is a tax upon the citizens of the nation imposing it. It does nothing to anyone else except make their products more expensive in the country that introduces the tariff. Those of you who are happy with the tariffs their own country puts on other countries products must like paying higher prices or like to be taxed. If the latter is true then you could just buy more lottery tickets to satisfy your need and leave me out of it.

China can produce goods at less expense than any other country in the world because they have no pollution regulation, no minimum wage or defined benefit regulation, and they have set forth policies to force people from their agricultural heritage into cities to work in what you progressives would have called sweatshops 20 years ago. You cannot compete in an open market with those rules unless you are so selfish that you don't care that someone is being forced to produce your $100 tennis shoes for $.25. All collectivism is slavery.

I refuse to participate in the shell game of politics today. Both sides are distracting the attention of their party members on meaningless gestures to enable them to continue to destroy the middle class, promote the power of the un-elected bureaucracy, and make everyone Pavlov's Dogs in their claims of crisis. Trump is not a part of that machine, which is why they must take him down. Trump is not a genius but he is fast becoming a champion of the middle class common American citizen.

Hate away!


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## doctorcam (Aug 19, 2007)

troy2000 said:


> Taking a unilateral wrecking ball to international trade structures, while barely pretending to be trying to renegotiate them instead, hardly qualifies as 'resetting' IMHO. I personally don't foresee any good ending for what Trump is doing.
> 
> And he's definitely misusing and abusing Section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act of 1962, which allows the president to adjust imports without a vote by Congress should the Department of Commerce find evidence of a national-security threat from foreign shipments. Apparently Wilbur Ross, the pet poodle Trump installed as his Secretary of Commerce, is willing to certify that damnnear any and all imports somehow qualify as a threat to national security...


This would be the same Wilbur Ross who's connected to Putin's inner circle, would it?


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

I don't think the tariffs will have a great affect to the cost of owning a sailboat. From what I can tell very few Sailnetters are buying new boats at the boat shows, So tariffs on the boating industry won't affect many onboard here. Unless you are doing a major refit, I would guess the cost of parts as far as boat owning expense is 30% or less. If 50% of this is foreign sourced from a taxed nation. Boating equipment is taxed at 25%. The increase in the costs of boating is 3.75% as a result of this trade war.

I am not sure where we stood before the trade wars but the U.S. has fought and been accused of protectionism. Boeing and the US has accused Europe of subsidizing Airbus
Boeing: Facts About Subsidies to Airbus
While we have subsidized industries to keep US farmers rich.
https://www.economist.com/united-states/2015/02/12/milking-taxpayers
Lets not forget the tax breaks Carrier got to keep jobs in the U.S.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ry-trump-made-deal-to-keep-open-idUSKBN1F02TL

I think the true economic stressors to boat ownership might be on the world economy as a whole, not just the goods being taxed. This trade war could lead to a global downturn. Trump looks at all transactions as a Zero Sum Game: The US economy can win only if our trade partners loose. I think he was shocked that the tariffs are being retaliated against, and he may continue to escalate the trade war. Since this is not a global trade war it is 'the US vs it's trading partners', eventually the trading partners will find it's easier and cheaper to get their goods from other countries.

One thing for certain it will be hard to keep up your sailboat if you are a hog farmer.

Trade wars costing hog farmers $2.2 billion so far | National Hog Farmer


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Capt Len said:


> Seems pretty complete. Why the gherkins?


Gherkins explained.

I turns out the list of items chosen for tariffs were specifically picked out to target Trump's allies in Congress. Paul Ryan's district is a huge source for Gherkins.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

jephotog said:


> I don't think the tariffs will have a great affect to the cost of owning a sailboat. &#8230;


Probably true, at least in the short run. It will start to bite for all westerners around the world eventually. I see Canada is imposing a 10% duty on American made boats and motors. I'm sure Canada isn't overall a huge market for American boats, but it's not insignificant either, and probably quite important for some US companies or regions.



jephotog said:


> I think the true economic stressors to boat ownership might be on the world economy as a whole, not just the goods being taxed. This trade war could lead to a global downturn. Trump looks at all transactions as a Zero Sum Game: The US economy can win only if our trade partners loose. I think he was shocked that the tariffs are being retaliated against, and he may continue to escalate the trade war. Since this is not a global trade war it is 'the US vs it's trading partners', eventually the trading partners will find it's easier and cheaper to get their goods from other countries.


This is exactly right. Trump doesn't understand trade, or if he does, he doesn't understand global free market capitalism, which is the system championed by, and for the benefit of, the USA and its allies beginning in the early 20th century (and perhaps earlier). His actions can only lead to more economic pain, especially for the middle class.

Like I said earlier, Trump also appears to be making a basic mistake with regard to how people react when bullied. Some fold, but those who can fight back, do so, even when it negatively affects them. Study after study shows this to be true about human nature.

Trump is clearly a narcissistic bully who's previous life success have come by being the biggest dog in the fight. His history abusing the "little guys" is well documented. So it's no wonder he is taking the same approach to international relations; after all, the USA is the biggest dog in the ring.

It's also interesting how he surrounds himself with toadies. Anyone who may dare to question him, or even suggest alternative approaches, gets shown the door. He's now got what he wants: a room full of "yes men (and women)."

I still predict people will begin to wake up to this con man fairly soon. The Republicans will find their collective backbone when most of them see he's dragging their ship down with at the polls in November. At least this is my hope.


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> A number of thoughts:
> A tariff is a tax upon the citizens of the nation imposing it. It does nothing to anyone else except make their products more expensive in the country that introduces the tariff...
> 
> Trump is not a genius but he is fast becoming a champion of the middle class common American citizen.
> ...


The dissonance between your opening and closing statements is jarring. How do Trump's capricious and arbitrary tariffs, which will wind up raising prices almost across the board for 'middle class common American citizens,' make him their champion?

The same way that signing a huge tax cut for the wealthy and big businesses, then wanting to pay for it by shredding Social Security, Medicare and any other part of the safety net he can get his hands on, makes him the champion of the middle class?

And the same way that sabotaging Obamacare at every turn, thereby shoving medical care back onto the same unsustainable path of rising costs it was on before, makes him a middle class champion?

Methinks you have odd notions concerning what champions are supposed to do...


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

doctorcam said:


> This would be the same Wilbur Ross who's connected to Putin's inner circle, would it?


Yes it would be... the Paradise Papers have shown that his business dealings and holdings are intertwined with those of Putin's immediate family and inner circle, to a degree far beyond what he disclosed during his confirmation hearing.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/po...ecretary-concealed-ties-putin-cronies-n817711


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I dont buy new boats, but I am somewhat concerned about what kind of effect all this none sense is going to have on border crossings.

What happens when I cross the border towing my unlicensed Canadian owned Florida made sailboat, on a Florida made Ontario licenced trailer with my Chinese made Japanese outboard, towed behind my Canadian manufactured Dodge Van? Assuming everything goes smoothly what happens when I try to cross the border back int Canada (historically, Canada Customs always gives me a much harder time than US customs).

I am guessing the front line customs officer will conduct business as usual, but you never know.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

My line lately has been...... if you belong to a political party, you are the problem. At the least, you are enabling the problem. 

A nuanced version might be..... if you’ve never seen your opposing political party ever do anything you disagreed with and it worked out, you are the problem.

For more than one reason, I could never be elected. I have positons that are firmly in both camps. The answer is not a new party, it’s no parties. Get the elected back to representing the people, not their party (see exact party line votes) and get the voter loyal to their country, not their party.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

jephotog said:


> I don't think the tariffs will have a great affect to the cost of owning a sailboat.


It raises the scarcity of boats overall though, which means the used boat prices will rise a bit.

The Jeanneau 349 is an interesting example of what tariffs have done for Canadian's who want to buy that boat. For the first couple of years, it was made in Europe, and as a result had a tariff that raised the price by $20,000 CDN in our market. Then the production of that boat was shifted to the U.S, which meant no tariffs anymore, and the dealers here have since been able to move a few more of them.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Ninefingers said:


> It raises the scarcity of boats overall though, which means the used boat prices will rise a bit.
> 
> The Jeanneau 349 is an interesting example of what tariffs have done for Canadian's who want to buy that boat. For the first couple of years, it was made in Europe, and as a result had a tariff that raised the price by $20,000 CDN in our market. Then the production of that boat was shifted to the U.S, which meant no tariffs anymore, and the dealers here have since been able to move a few more of them.


What a great example, showing how folks just don't have a basis for understanding how we got here. They simply back their party or oppose the other.

I've seen mentioned that the US is just throwing its weight around. I suspect those same people fail to understand that the EU GDP is about the same size as the USA.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

Yes, I made a mistake.... Trump is a moron who can't negotiate.

News just in...



> BREAKING: OPEC countries give in to President Trump's demands, agree to increase oil production by almost 1 million barrels a day - AP


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## paulinnanaimo (Dec 3, 2016)

Demanding is not the same as negotiating.


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## MarkofSeaLife (Nov 7, 2010)

paulinnanaimo said:


> Demanding is not the same as negotiating.


Results matter.

Methodology and private negotiations can't be known by journalists so us probably lies.

A person selling a boat is "demanding" a price. Has any buyer agreed to those demands :grin :grin :grin


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

giving Trump's 'demands' credit for OPEC's action is a little like giving him credit for the sun rising this morning. OPEC has been negotiating with its members and oil-producing non-members about increasing production for a while now, and everyone knew it was coming as soon as they could sort out their differences.

I agree with paulinnanaimo, negotiations are a two-way street involving give and take. Just making demands, without a carrot or stick attached to them, isn't negotiating. It's just bluster.


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Results matter.
> 
> Methodology and private negotiations can't be known by journalists so us probably lies.
> 
> A person selling a boat is "demanding" a price. Has any buyer agreed to those demands :grin :grin :grin


No, an asking price isn't a demand, any more than an offer is. It's an asking price. I've paid full price for things I wanted before - but if you demand I pay you what you want instead of asking me to, I'll tell you to kiss me where the sun don't shine.

You aren't the only one who apparently doesn't understand the difference between negotiating and demanding. Exhibit A: Donald Trump...


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Minnewaska said:


> A nuanced version might be..... if you've never seen your opposing political party ever do anything you disagreed with and it worked out, you are the problem.


A more current nuanced version might be if you see your party do something you oppose or find morally wrong but do not say anything, you are the problem. This not directed at you Minne but the Republican Party today.

The Republican Party is one that historically opposes tariffs. Protectionism is a Democratic party thing. Almost every Republican Senator opposes the tariffs but does not want to cross Trump and end up like Mark Sanford.

Although Trump still touts the economy as the measure of his success. His announcement of an impending trade war sent the financial market into a tailspin. The market dropped 10% in two weeks. The money to buy my dream boat disappeared from my retirement account over a one week period. Whatever the current trade barriers were, I doubt they had a significant affect on the trade balance or the economy as a whole compared to the global downturn since Trump announced the trade war. This caused his then economic advisor to quit. Even his current one admits the trade war will likely hurt every American financially.
Larry Kudlow admits Trump tariffs, trade war could hurt US economy - Business Insider

The Dow Jones today is 8% below the high of January 26 this year. Even the rich donors are starting to feel it and fight back.

https://qz.com/1297547/trumps-trade...-republicans-and-the-kochs-to-curb-his-power/


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

> *Donald Trump has called on China to capitulate to U.S. demands on trade. The problem is nobody knows exactly what Trump actually wants - including the Chinese.
> *
> One week, he condemns threats to American national security interests and the next, agrees to lift a ban on doing business with Chinese telecom giant ZTE. He rails about the U.S. trade deficit with China, then dismisses Beijing's offer - negotiated by his own officials - to boost its purchases of U.S. goods by billions of dollars.
> 
> ...


Trump isn't really negotiating - because he seems to have no idea what he wants, beyond some vague notion of 'winning'. I think he's mostly just posturing for his base, and IMHO that's a poor substitute for a genuine foreign trade policy.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

MarkofSeaLife said:


> Results matter.
> 
> Methodology and private negotiations can't be known by journalists so us probably lies.
> 
> A person selling a boat is "demanding" a price. Has any buyer agreed to those demands :grin :grin :grin


Results do matter, but a demanded settlement and a negotiated settlement are two different things. In a demand, as in: _I am a lot bigger than you and will hurt you badly if you don't do things my way_; in this situation there is no negation. It's an agreement under duress, and no one thinks this kind of agreement is legitimate. But it's true that it certainly can achieve results.

Like any bully, the USA can get away with this behaviour for some time. But eventually others find a way to push back. This form of foreign diplomacy used to be very common - and so were wars. Trump seems to be dragging the world back to these bad old days.


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

MikeOReilly said:


> Results do matter, but a demanded settlement and a negotiated settlement are two different things. In a demand, as in: _I am a lot bigger than you and will hurt you badly if you don't do things my way_; in this situation there is no negation. It's an agreement under duress, and no one thinks this kind of agreement is legitimate. But it's true that it certainly can achieve results.
> 
> Like any bully, the USA can get away with this behaviour for some time. But eventually others find a way to push back. This form of foreign diplomacy used to be very common - and so were wars. Trump seems to be dragging the world back to these bad old days.


It used to be called gunboat diplomacy, or - after Teddy Roosevelt became President - big stick diplomacy. It's been largely superseded in modern times by dollar diplomacy, which is generally less messy. Trump doesn't seem to understand that successful dollar diplomacy involves a carrot as much as a stick... people are a lot more likely to go along with you if there's something in it for them.


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

Tariffs have nothing to do with crossing the border with goods you already own so there shouldn't be any difference for Canadians coming to America with a Japanese boat.....

I don't think a lot of the threatened tariffs will ever see the light of day but I think that in the end many of the protectionist tariffs that have been in place in all countries may be reduced or eliminated when the dust settles. Trump is not a politician so he does not play by the old political rules concerning dealings between nations which is why so many of them have resorted to hysteria and name calling. But, if you are paying attention he seems to be getting more accomplished on the international stage than the past 5 Presidents combined. You haters can keep on bellowing about all of Trump's shortcomings but unemployment is way down, revenue to the government is rising, and regulation is diminishing back to a reasonable and sane level, all of which are good for the middle class.

You guys shouldn't be stuck on the R vs D game as it is the machine of government against those of us who would prefer to live our lives and prosper without the barriers the bureaucracies erect, which is what the President is slowly accomplishing without much help from anyone, regardless of party affliction. The machine does not want us to see behind the curtain and the United States is not the only country where this is happening. The EU leadership may be in the process of putting a stake in the heart of itself as Europeans awaken to find themselves in the mideast. The yearning of humanity is not existing as a subject of some higher authority that is working against their own interests.


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## doctorcam (Aug 19, 2007)

Minnewaska said:


> My line lately has been...... if you belong to a political party, you are the problem. At the least, you are enabling the problem.
> 
> A nuanced version might be..... if you've never seen your opposing political party ever do anything you disagreed with and it worked out, you are the problem.
> 
> For more than one reason, I could never be elected. I have positons that are firmly in both camps. The answer is not a new party, it's no parties. Get the elected back to representing the people, not their party (see exact party line votes) and get the voter loyal to their country, not their party.


Go one further. no elections. There is a method called sortition in which people are chosen at random. With constituencies (Congressional districts) defined by an independent body according to population and geographic boundaries, selecting one or two people from the voter's list in each constituency, you'd have a group of people representative of the population, most of whom would have no axe to grind. Who among us hasn't thought that any randomly selected group of people could do a far better job that the ninnies we have now (and I include every country in the world in that, not sparing my own)?


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> Tariffs have nothing to do with crossing the border with goods you already own so there shouldn't be any difference for Canadians coming to America with a Japanese boat.....
> 
> I don't think a lot of the threatened tariffs will ever see the light of day but I think that in the end many of the protectionist tariffs that have been in place in all countries may be reduced or eliminated when the dust settles. Trump is not a politician so he does not play by the old political rules concerning dealings between nations which is why so many of them have resorted to hysteria and name calling. But, if you are paying attention he seems to be getting more accomplished on the international stage than the past 5 Presidents combined. You haters can keep on bellowing about all of Trump's shortcomings but unemployment is way down, revenue to the government is rising, and regulation is diminishing back to a reasonable and sane level, all of which are good for the middle class.


What has Trump accomplished on the international stage, besides pissing off every good ally we have and kissing up to our enemies instead? He's destroyed any faith other countries might have in our government's integrity, by backing out of international agreements negotiated in good faith - including the Trans-Pacific Partnership, the Paris climate agreement, the Iran nuclear deal, the UN Global Compact on Migration... Not to mention that he's rudely insulted almost every national leader of consequence in the world. Except Putin, of course.

Trump's biggest claim to foreign affairs fame lately seems to be his meeting with Kim, and who are we to believe on the results of that? Trump, or Trump?


> *Just landed - a long trip, but everybody can now feel much safer than the day I took office. There is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea.*
> Meeting with Kim Jong Un was an interesting and very positive experience. North Korea has great potential for the future!"
> -Trump on Twitter, Jun 13, 2018
> 
> ...


The reality is that Trump has done very little of consequence since he's become President. But he's spent an incredible amount of time and effort undoing things. Here's a comprehensive list. I doubt you'll even read it, but some others might...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...what-trump-has-undone/?utm_term=.47274a2d59e8

I wouldn't go so far as to say nothing's below the man, Rocky. But for God's sake: he even scrapped a rule requiring airlines to disclose their baggage fees up front along with their ticket prices, so customers can comparison shop. How chicken**** is that?


> You guys shouldn't be stuck on the R vs D game as it is the machine of government against those of us who would prefer to live our lives and prosper without the barriers the bureaucracies erect, which is what the President is slowly accomplishing without much help from anyone, regardless of party affliction. The machine does not want us to see behind the curtain and the United States is not the only country where this is happening. The EU leadership may be in the process of putting a stake in the heart of itself as Europeans awaken to find themselves in the mideast. The yearning of humanity is not existing as a subject of some higher authority that is working against their own interests.


Oh Jeez... you came along and added a whole new truckload of bull while I was editing my post...


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

doctorcam said:


> Go one further. no elections. There is a method called sortition in which people are chosen at random. With constituencies (Congressional districts) defined by an independent body according to population and geographic boundaries, selecting one or two people from the voter's list in each constituency, you'd have a group of people representative of the population, most of whom would have no axe to grind. Who among us hasn't thought that any randomly selected group of people could do a far better job that the ninnies we have now (and I include every country in the world in that, not sparing my own)?


I've never thought that. Political positions seem to be the only place in the world where people believe the less experience a candidate has, the better qualified he is.

Try telling a corporate board, an army general staff or a river guide association, "this guy's the perfect candidate to put in charge; he has absolutely no experience at all!"

Reality: in among those ninnies are people who've spent years learning how the government works, and how to make it work. Without them, we'd be up the proverbial creek without a paddle. Don't believe me? Look at the French Revolution. Look at Cambodia. Look at other populist revolutions where the winners disposed of government officials and bureaucrats. Then look at the hash Trump (who had never even been a dog catcher) has made of things.

One reason our government managed to hit the ground running (or at least limping along at a pretty good rate) is because just about everyone involved was a seasoned veteran of colonial politics and government. It wasn't created by amateurs, and I don't recommend trying to run it with amateurs. There needs to be a fair number of seasoned pro's in the mix....


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Kim still has Nukes. Until they are eliminated nothing has changed. Historically through democratic and republican presidents North Korea has promised to go forward with denuclearization and has continued to violate that promise. Again.... Kim has nukes. Nothing has changed.
Add in those who are no longer seeking employment and those partially employed and those underemployed for their credentials and those who become consultants or the like after finding no suitable employment and the employment numbers aren’t so good.
Adjusted real income is flat and continues to be flat. 
Savings and investment returns for everyone other than the 1%ers is down. Basically those who can’t gain from shorts and the like are sol.
Debt at national, state and local levels is up. Withdrawal of federal funds makes this a particular issue at a non federal level.
Unfunded mandates continue to exist. Historically the dems were mostly to blame but the recent change in the tax structure now puts the gop in the lead given with 2-3% growth and no improvement as magically expected our debt continues to blossom. Reaganomics didn’t work for Reagan and won’t work now. Bush realized this but the base didn’t so he was a one term president.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> Tariffs have nothing to do with crossing the border with goods you already own so there shouldn't be any difference for Canadians coming to America with a Japanese boat.....


I wasn't talking about the tariffs in isolation, nothing happens in isolation, everything that happens has ripple effects. My concern isn't theoretical in nature I am a regular visitor to the US, multiple border crossings annually, so I know the routine. There is nothing happening right now that gives foreign visitors (like me) the warm fuzzies.

I still plan to continue to visit as long as the situation doesnt continue to decline, but if you think whats going on gives immigrants and foreign visitors positive feelings about the customs process, I think you might be misjudging how recent developments are being perceived outside of the country.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

Minnewaska said:


> What a great example, showing how folks just don't have a basis for understanding how we got here. They simply back their party or oppose the other.
> 
> I've seen mentioned that the US is just throwing its weight around. I suspect those same people fail to understand that the EU GDP is about the same size as the USA.


To add onto the 349 example a bit...it can go the other way too. Harley Davidson announced today, in response to EU tariff measures, that it will develop production facilities in Europe to avoid the duties, (they sell more in Europe than in the U.S.).

So who won that little battle?


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## Tanski (May 28, 2015)

So this is "winning"?
Harley-Davidson shifts some production overseas as EU tariff of $2,200 per bike kicks in | CBC News
LMAO 40 0000 Hardleys a year projected to be built in europe to avoid tarrifs.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Guy was born rich but went bankrupt. Owned a $hitty lifestyle brand selling steaks and chinese ties under a name that he propped up by playing a businessman on Celebrity Apprentice. Harassed the girls in the Miss America Pageant. 

"Trump’s Taj Mahal opened in April 1990 in Atlantic City, but six months later, “defaulted on interest payments to bondholders as his finances went into a tailspin,” The Washington Post’s Robert O’Harrow found. In July 1991, Trump’s Taj Mahal filed for bankruptcy. He could not keep up with debts on two other Atlantic City casinos, and those two properties declared bankruptcy in 1992. A fourth property, the Plaza Hotel in New York, declared bankruptcy in 1992 after amassing debt.

PolitiFact uncovered two more bankruptcies filed after 1992, totaling six. Trump Hotels and Casinos Resorts filed for bankruptcy again in 2004, after accruing about $1.8 billion in debt. Trump Entertainment Resorts also declared bankruptcy in 2009, after being hit hard during the 2008 recession."

And now he's in charge of U.S. trade. How could this possibly go wrong?? LOL


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Ninefingers said:


> To add onto the 349 example a bit...it can go the other way too. Harley Davidson announced today, in response to EU tariff measures, that it will develop production facilities in Europe to avoid the duties, (they sell more in Europe than in the U.S.).
> 
> So who won that little battle?


This thread has become, as was entirely predictable, an opportunity for most to line up with their team. I'm not including this particular post in that criticism. It's just not worth discussing merits of most of the above posts.

I was motivated to point out that Harley's US sales have been trouble for a long time now, down by 10% on a unit basis last year, which was the 4th consecutive decline. The younger generation hasn't identified with the bad boy biker club image and are more likely to ride Asian or European bikes, with a sportier or safer culture. HD has, on the other hand had more success in Europe (slower declines), as they are seen as exotic there.

This has nearly nothing to do with recent trade issues, it's just team sports on the News using it as fodder.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> ....
> This has nearly nothing to do with recent trade issues,......


Your post contradicts what HD themselves are saying, and they are the ones who made the decision. And its not like the trade war hasn't just fired up big time. I don't see how you can be serious with that statement.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> Your post contradicts what HD themselves are saying, and they are the ones who made the decision. And its not like the trade war hasn't just fired up big time. I don't see how you can be serious with that statement.


Wouldn't you be the first to accuse a company of manipulative spin, if what they were doing didn't support your view?

Seriously, you think a company of Harley's magnitude would make a decision like this, inside a few months of "trade wars", when no one believes the current status of events will stick forever. They're playing the game. Plus, Europe is looking like a better long term market for them than the US.

I honestly think their future is threatened here.


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Wouldn't you be the first to accuse a company of manipulative spin, if what they were doing didn't support your view?
> 
> Seriously, you think a company of Harley's magnitude would make a decision like this, inside a few months of "trade wars", when no one believes the current status of events will stick forever. They're playing the game. Plus, Europe is looking like a better long term market for them than the US.
> 
> I honestly think their future is threatened here.


Seriously, you think everyone is lying about their reasons, if what they're doing doesn't support your view? An average $2200 tariff per bike on 16.4% of Harley Davidson's worldwide sales seems to me like sufficient reason for what they're doing.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Its no wonder Trump was so successful at bilking so many people over his whole life. Some of his victims probably thanked him for taking their money. Then he laughed out loud about it. I bet that, like the idiots on Tangier, most of the workers at HD voted for Trump. Imagine the looks on their faces today!


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

troy2000 said:


> An average $2200 tariff per bike on 16.4% of Harley Davidson's worldwide sales seems to me like enough reason for what they're doing.


That's IF that tariff stands for the long term. Will it? You take at face value that Harley will spend hundred of millions, maybe billions tooling that new plant over a tariff that could go away with the stroke of a pen, if the US negotiates for it? Really?

They want to be in Europe and moving jobs from one of the most iconic Made in America brands is the real issue at play here.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

They already have the plants in India and Thailand, they are just expanding them.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Sure, the tarrif will probably stand, and if not - just the possibility that this could happen changes things. They may have been on the fence before, or who knows... but we were previously strongly for free trade and now that is no longer a guarantee.

You can't diss the G-7 and get a good trade deal.


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> That's IF that tariff stands for the long term. Will it? You take at face value that Harley will spend hundred of millions, maybe billions tooling that new plant over a tariff that could go away with the stroke of a pen, if the US negotiates for it? Really?
> 
> They want to be in Europe and moving jobs from one of the most iconic Made in America brands is the real issue at play here.


Interesting that you can read their minds, determine the real reasons for what they're doing, and explain to the rest of us how they're lying about their true motives.

Or... maybe you're just blowing smoke, and until Trump started his trade wars it was more profitable to make motorcycles here and ship them to Europe. Because of, you know, all that there 'hundreds of millions, maybe billions' involved in tooling up a new plant. 

And only fools would make business decisions of that magnitude based on wishful thinking that Trump and his team will actually negotiate any sort of advantageous trade policy, when so far they've screwed up everything they've touched.


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

Do you really think that the government regulations in India and Thailand are comparable to the EU? And to think Mr. Big Hat thinks I am stupid......


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> Do you really think that the government regulations in India and Thailand are comparable to the EU? And to think Mr. Big Hat thinks I am stupid......


I haven't the foggiest idea what you're going on about, Rocky. I'd ask for an explanation, but I'm afraid it would just reduce the visibility even more...


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## Rocky Mountain Breeze (Mar 30, 2015)

I apologize Troy. I thought you might actually read and comprehend other posts on a thread. Ninefingers made a post that Hardley already had plants in Thailand and India so opening one in the EU wouldn't be a problem. But then, I bow to you as you obviously are smarter than everyone else in your sphere.


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Breeze said:


> I apologize Troy. I thought you might actually read and comprehend other posts on a thread. Ninefingers made a post that Hardley already had plants in Thailand and India so opening one in the EU wouldn't be a problem. But then, I bow to you as you obviously are smarter than everyone else in your sphere.


Since I didn't make that post or even respond to it, I have no idea why you think it provides an excuse for you to lash out at me.

Maybe it's time to cork that bottle, and get some sleep? Nighty-night...


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

troy2000 said:


> *Interesting that you can read their minds*, determine the real reasons for what they're doing, and explain to the rest of us how they're lying about their true motives.
> 
> Or... *maybe you're just blowing smoke*, and until Trump started his trade wars it was more profitable to make motorcycles here and ship them to Europe. *Because of, you know*, all that there 'hundreds of millions, maybe billions' involved in tooling up a new plant.
> 
> And *only fools* would make business decisions of that magnitude based on wishful thinking that Trump and his team will actually negotiate any sort of advantageous trade policy, when so far they've screwed up everything they've touched.


Pretty snarky post that shows your true colors. You know this kind of response tells the judges you've run out of intellectual material. I've proposed a very plausible scenario, but it doesn't support your larger narrative. If it did, I"m certain you wouldn't push back. Certain. You feed off the political subject matter and draw lines that must divide us entirely. That is demonstrably the problem these days and explicitly what got Trump elected. His supporters (I'm not one of them, I voted for Hillary) were pushing back against the zealots. Thanks for that.

This tread belongs in the sewer, as usual.


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## Arcb (Aug 13, 2016)

I happened across this article on how the new taxes may impact boat building in the US.

The EU Hits American Boats with 25% Tariff


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I read through the EU tariff list. It includes motorcycles at 25%, and boats too. I went a bit further and read the China Tariff list. Lots of steel and aluminum tariffs. Some specialized industrial equipment, such as machines that print circuit boards, almost any type of finished or formed steel or aluminum parts So Auto parts from China will go up 25%, But nothing on Iphones, computers, consumer electronics. 

If I had to guess the purpose from the list, it looks like a hybrid of things that would destroy american auto makers and preserve domestic steel workers and domestic electronic manufacturing. I'm just guessing obviously. But I don't think it makes sense. It looks like the product of a muddled brain. 

But I can look at the results its getting. Ford is also moving vehicle production to china and they won't be bringing the cars here.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Stupid!!! And given negative impact of tariffs on real income decreased domestic sales as well.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

I found this, from back in February -

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...ey-davidson-executives-union-representatives/

_"But you folks have been terrific to me. Sometimes your top people didn't support me but the steelworkers supported me, right? A lot of your top people are going to be losing their jobs pretty soon I guess but they're all coming around - we're getting them. But the workers supported us big league. We want to make it easier for businesses to create more jobs and more factories in the United States, and you're a great example of it. That means we have to make America the best country on Earth to do business, and that's what we're in the process of doing - we're redoing NAFTA, redoing a lot of our trade deals, and we're negotiating properly with countries - even countries that are allies - a lot of people taking advantage of us, a lot of countries taking advantage of us, really terribly taking advantage of us."_

------snip----

https://www.vox.com/2018/6/25/17501436/harley-davidson-europe-tariffs-trade-war

Republicans have held up Harley as an example of American business success. House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-WI) traveled to a Harley-Davidson plant in Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, in September 2017, while he was trying to sell the GOP's tax bill, telling workers that tax reform would put American manufacturers on "much better footing" to compete globally. Trump brought Harley executives to the White House in February 2017 and told them his policies, including tariffs and trade, will make them "very happy."

To be sure, not all of Trump's policies have been bad for Harley. The tariffs aren't helping the company, but the tax cut did - the company estimates its effective tax rate (the amount it pays) will be 23.5 to 25 percent this year, about 10 percentage points lower than it would have been otherwise. But Harley's tax savings isn't helping workers, it's going to shareholders. Days after announcing the Kansas City plant closure earlier this year, Harley announced a nearly $700 million stock buyback.


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

I wrote this on November 9, 2016. From what I can tell, Trump is being true to his word, and the people are getting exactly what they asked for:

*********
Looking at President Trump from an international cruiser's standpoint (without being too political), and just going from Trump's "100 days" speech and his other commitments:

_If Trump is true to his word_ there will be a retraction in the reach of the American Empire. They will withdraw or retreat from many of the thousands of places they now occupy with both hard and soft power. This includes a shake up of NATO, a cancelling of the Iran deal, and (presumably) a withdrawal from many of the hundreds of American military bases around the world. This will produce power vacuums that will be filled by other actors, and will produce regional instabilities in the short and medium term which may make the cruising life more difficult. It might be a good thing &#8230; in the longer run.

_If Trump is true to his word_ he will tighten border security, making it more difficult for foreigners to visit, and for Americans to return. He will engage in mass deportations and incarcerations of illegal aliens. All of this will encourage international cruisers to seek other waters.

_If Trump is true to his word_ he will repeal Obamacare. Since he hasn't said what he would replace it with, I assume it will be a return to save versions of the old ways. I think this means people will be free to not carry health insurance. I suspect this will help many middle-class American cruisers (except the ones that get sick or hurt, of course).

_If Trump is true to his word_ he will cut taxes deeply. This will disproportionally benefit the rich. Since most cruisers are already relatively rich, this may help many American cruisers in the short term. In the longer term this cut will likely (according to self-described experts) expand the US national debt, and will increase social instability as wealth disparity grows between the haves and have-nots. This will result in fewer Americans being able to afford the cruising life, but may make modest boats even more affordable as people divest and the market responds.

_If Trump is true to his word_ he will increase tariffs on Chinese goods, which will increase the cost of most things Americans buy. He will also renege on trade deals like NAFTA, and won't sign the TPP. This will likely put economic globalization in reverse, resulting in short term economic pain for many countries, including the USA. Longer term might be positive.

_If Trump is true to his word_ he will halt all US involvement in dealing with climate change. This will effectively kill all international efforts. In the short and medium term cruisers will be affected by increased climate instability (although this is already a certainty), making travel by small boat more challenging (from a weather standpoint). Insurance rates will increase and insurance-imposed restrictions will expand for cruisers. In the medium/long term climate change will expand global social instability making more places more dangerous for international cruisers.


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Pretty snarky post that shows your true colors. You know this kind of response tells the judges you've run out of intellectual material. I've proposed a very plausible scenario, but it doesn't support your larger narrative. If it did, I"m certain you wouldn't push back. Certain. You feed off the political subject matter and draw lines that must divide us entirely. That is demonstrably the problem these days and explicitly what got Trump elected. His supporters (I'm not one of them, I voted for Hillary) were pushing back against the zealots. Thanks for that.
> 
> This tread belongs in the sewer, as usual.


You're the one who accused people in this thread of opposing Trump's tariffs simply because they're 'team players,' rather than because they consider what Trump is doing to be poorly thought out and likely to be counterproductive. If you don't like snark, don't get snarky. "Don't start none, won't be none..."

Your 'plausible scenario' depends on an unsupported assumption that Harley Davidson's management is dishonest, and more likely to lie than tell the truth. I see no reason for such an assumption, when the explanation they gave is quite compatible with the facts.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

LOL!!! This is today's news...

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tru...n-moves-production-overseas/story?id=56165790
*Trump threatens to tax Harley-Davidson 'like never before' if it moves some production overseas
*

_"A Harley-Davidson should never be built in another country-never! Their employees and customers are already very angry at them. If they move, watch, it will be the beginning of the end - they surrendered, they quit! The Aura will be gone and* they will be taxed like never before!*"_

Spoken like a true idiot!


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## MikeOReilly (Apr 12, 2010)

Sal Paradise said:


> LOL!!! This is today's news...
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tru...n-moves-production-overseas/story?id=56165790
> *Trump threatens to tax Harley-Davidson 'like never before' if it moves some production overseas
> ...


As I said, Trump either doesn't understand international trade and basic economics, or he just doesn't care. You take your pick. Either way, he's conned a lot of people.

But you can't fool people forever.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

He said they will be heavily taxed, if they build the bikes overseas and then try to import them back into the US. Which, of course, is not their plan. Their plan is to service their European market. It's all fodder and political pandering and it's amazing how blind so many are to it.

Listen, this is just another amateur political thread, where few want to learn anything about how these things actually work. I've even read some say they don't understand international trade, but still form pretty firm opinions. I'm not going to get into my qualifications on trade, as it's not worth engaging. I'm not a slam the door and insist I'm out kind of guy, but I'm going to do my best to depart this political thread. 

At the moment, my biggest fear is that all the exaggeration will put him back in office again, or worse, the liberals put up a candidate as equally nuts on the other end of the spectrum.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Ok. I always like to read your posts, and for what its worth you are usually a good sport

Its hard to know exactly what tone to strike with Trump's shenanigans .. the tweet doesn't say import, it doesn't say anything but taxed. Obviously it isn't possible to put a tariff on a 100% domestic product but you can " find a way" to target an industry or even on corporation within the tax code. 

Cheers.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Minnewaska said:


> At the moment, my biggest fear is that all the exaggeration will put him back in office again, or worse, the liberals put up a candidate as equally nuts on the other end of the spectrum.


This is my biggest fear also. I see the way we have swung every 8 years. Clinton-Bush W-Obama-Trump. My fear is the next Democratic Presidential Candidate will make Bernie seem far right and Trump will get 4 more years.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Its weird. No one is given any credit for accuracy or intelligence,..ideas, outcomes... Its how far right or left and what wild response that might provoke. We have really given up on democracy.


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

A little clarity on the Harley Davidson thing: they aren't building new facilities in Europe, or anywhere else. They're simply shifting production of the motorcycles sold in Europe from the US to their existing overseas factories in Australia, Brazil, India and Thailand.

None of the motorcycles built in those facilities are sold in the US, nor will they be. But neither will any of the motorcycles built in those facilities be subject to the tariffs the European Union has imposed, in retaliation for Trump's tariffs on steel and aluminum.

Simply shifting some production to existing overseas facilities shouldn't cost the company 100's of millions of dollars, or take years to accomplish. Which makes it even more likely they're actually doing it for the reasons stated, to avoid the new $2200 per motorcycle tariffs, rather than because of some deep, secret plan.

Occasionally, things are exactly what they seem...


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

I flew to Washington DC this morning with my wife’s 9 year old grandson. We saw the Lincoln memorial, Korea memorial and the Washington. What was most striking was the haggard look on the grunts and the moving poetry on the left wall of the Lincoln. So many people died for us. Freedom isn’t free. Trump, Warren and all of mnbc and fox need to go there and read those words. Maybe daily until they get it. Especially the last sentence.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/h...imply-because-of-the-trump-tariffs-2018-06-26

Some just don't want to hear the truth.


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## jephotog (Feb 25, 2002)

Minnewaska said:


> https://www.marketwatch.com/story/h...imply-because-of-the-trump-tariffs-2018-06-26
> 
> Some just don't want to hear the truth.


It's kind of tit-for-tat.

If Beneteau needs to put together their boats in South Carolina, maybe Harleys should be produced in France. At least Harley's aren't made in China yet.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Minnewaska said:


> https://www.marketwatch.com/story/h...imply-because-of-the-trump-tariffs-2018-06-26
> 
> Some just don't want to hear the truth.


I read this with an open mind, however I am a lifelong motorcycle enthusiast. There really is nothing of substance in the article to refute anything. All the big motorcycle manufacturers have gone global .Triumph built a couple of Thailand plants years ago. Most often they locate assembly plants in the far east because the supply chain logistics work better ( for the american market anyway) and the labor is cheap cheap cheap and quite good. This isn't a conspiracy by liberals to obfuscate Obama era whattaboutisms. Its just current events. Tariffs get enacted on motorcycles. Harley moves. These are things that anyone can interpret without a spin doctor.

In this article we have what?? A comment that Harley " failed to mention" that they got a tax break. Whoa. There is also a quote from a machinists union guy saying he thinks they planned this all along. No doubt he supported Trump and wants to convince his members not to blame him for their job losses. Good luck!

The article also loosely implies that Harley is actually building a plant in Europe, which isn't true.

As for Thailand tariffs - who cares? Answer: Not Harley. Its not like Harley is depending on expanding the Thailand luxury motorcycle market. The average household income in Thailand is $3000 a year!

So its just an article to muddy the waters and let Trump off the hook. Answer this: what game changing new truth do we really get out of this article that is so controversial that "some don't want to hear the truth"???


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Exactly my point, Sal. You’ve interpreted this as defending Trump. Too many want their distain for Trump to define what does and doesn’t make sense. Absolutely not the case here and I’m not going to defend the guy either. I’m simply pointing out how misinformed everyone seems to be on international trade issues. Trump is not handling this well, but trade did need to be taken on. 

Peace.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

Are you better informed than I am? If so share......


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Sigh........


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> https://www.marketwatch.com/story/h...imply-because-of-the-trump-tariffs-2018-06-26
> 
> Some just don't want to hear the truth.


'The truth' doesn't seem to be in the article you linked to... Harley Davidson hasn't announced it's going to start making motorcycles in Europe. It's simply said it's shifting production for the European market to its existing overseas facilities; that it will take from 9 to 18 months to do so; and that meanwhile it'll eat the new tariffs instead of passing them on to dealers or customers. It estimates that absorbing the tariffs will cost it between $30 and $45 million dollars.

That Harley Davidson has previously expanded production overseas to better supply regional markets makes perfect sense. That they were secretly planning all along to shift production for the European market to those facilities (in Australia, Brazil, India and Thailand), and getting slapped with European tariffs averaging $2200 per bike was simply a convenient excuse - not so much.

I don't see how anyone with an impartial mind can dismiss a hit of $2200 per motorcycle as inconsequential and/or irrelevant...

add: by the way, Thailand - like most countries with a low average income - still has a wealthy upper class with disposable income to spend on toys like Harleys. And being in Thailand also allows HD to take advantage of Thailand's trade agreements with other countries in the region, thereby avoiding or lowering tariffs from those countries.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

Double sigh. It’s a free country (so far). Believe whatever you like. I know more than I’m going to reveal online. 

I say the tariffs are simply an excuse for a pre-existing bigger plan and a well calculated one. They have a lot of people believing it and defending them, when they would have otherwise been criticized. 

Hoping to move on.


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## Capt Len (Oct 9, 2011)

So Canada has supported Quebec for years, about 20 billion (Can) /annum and my butter and cheese costs on top of that to protect their production and survival over the impractical cold winters. Less than 10 % of which is sold to the US .Some tariffs but not so much when you consider the federal assistance US farmers get to keep the cost of their cheese down.And then The Donald gets huge milage on finger pointing at tariff ridden Canada bad guy ,The difference in price of a barrel of Canadian crude at Texas vrs/offshore price is over 16 billion (US) a year. That's just about enough to cover our Quebec subsidies .So be it. WE all got problems to solve or not. May take some belt tightening and pencil sharpened dealing with our offshore trading partners in Europe and Asia.So be it. It will take years to repair the political damage already done but take heart, Generations of Palestinian youths are still flinging rocks at their bully neighbour so things are not so bad yet.


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## troy2000 (Apr 7, 2013)

Minnewaska said:


> Double sigh. It's a free country (so far). Believe whatever you like. I know more than I'm going to reveal online.
> 
> I say the tariffs are simply an excuse for a pre-existing bigger plan and a well calculated one. They have a lot of people believing it and defending them, when they would have otherwise been criticized.
> 
> Hoping to move on.


Ahh... the old "You're Completely Wrong, But I'm Not Allowed To Tell You Why" Countergambit. Well played, sir.


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## Ninefingers (Oct 15, 2009)

I'm curious as to why you are reluctant to share your knowledge. I think we are all open to hearing more insight.


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## Minnewaska (Feb 21, 2010)

I’m not playing a game, Troy. All the best to you.


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## Sal Paradise (Sep 14, 2012)

That's some disrespect right there, man.


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