# Swing Keel or Fixed Wing Keel? Catalina 22 or 25?



## TSOJOURNER

Hello all,

I'm brand new to the board, and to sailing. For some reason, the sailing bug has bit (though to be honest, I have wanted to do this since I was a teenager). I am beginning to look into a small pocket cruiser type of boat to sail on inland lakes, and/or Sandusky Bay/Lake Eire. I live in the Cincinnati area. 

I have been looking at the Catalina 22 and Catalina 25 more and more. I have eliminated the MacGregor 26X, and the Hunter water ballasted boats from my list of possibles. What I am really looking for is a trailerable boat that can be launched and retrieved relatively easily. What would be better, a swing keel, or a fixed wing keel for ease of trailering (launching and retrieving)? Both the C22 and C25 have a swing keel option, or a wing keel option. Or, are they both equally trailerable?

Next question: Which is the better boat for day sailing and short multi-day trips, the C22 or C25 (given the trailering requirement above)?

Thanks for your help.


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## toastchee

In my oh-so-limited opinion, you take a big step up in trailering requirements in the difference between a 22 and a 25. Make sure you pay attention to what you can pull and how often you will be doing it. 

Why don't you start smaller? I have a 13' and a 14', it's my first season as a real sailor. I'm learning a LOT about what I like and what I don't. 

Best regards...


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## SailinJay

I own and sailed a 1976 Catalina 22 for four years (my brother-in-law is using the boat now). It had a swing keel. The draft with the keel down is five feet, which is pretty deep for a 22-foot boat. I have previously posted regarding how I came by this boat, but that is not relevant. If I were purchasing a C-22 today, I would get the fixed wing keel. The reason would be much less maintenance.

(If anyone can describe this better, have at it.) The swing keel attaches to the hull by means of a bar that is bolted into the bottom of the boat, and it pivots up and down on this bar. There is a winch just inside the companion way below the cockpit that houses a steel cable that attaches to the trailing edge of the keel near the bottom. The keel is raised and lowered by the winch and cable combination. The cable exits (or enters) the boat through a molded fiberglass "cone" that is part of the bottom of the boat. The top of the cone contains a ball into which a pin is inserted to keep it in place. All of this is covered by a foot-long piece of radiator hose that is held in place on the cone by a hose clamp. One also puts some sealer around the bottom of the hose. This is to keep entering the boat. I have seen the cone described as a "volcano" and the water does flow out like lava if the hose is loose.

I replaced the winch once and the cable twice in four years. I finally learned to keep the cable taut instead of with some slack, as the slack can cause it to "whip," become abraded, and snap. When the cable snaps the keel is in the "down" position, which is OK for sailing (unless you are in a shallow slip) but may present some problems getting it on and off the trailer. You can only replace the cable when the boat is out of the water.

You have none of this with a fixed keel. Of course, you also get a 3.5-foot draft with the wing, so this may affect performance.

Getting the boat on and off the trailer is not the biggest issue you have. The biggest issue is raising and lowering the mast each time you launch and haul out. The fore stay and at least two of the shrouds had to be detached to lower the mast and reattached to raise it. The 22 had a device that one could buy that allegedly allowed one person to raise and lower. I did it with one other person and found that three people are better. Two can raise the mast but you need the third person to attach and do the other things to secure the mast while the others are holding it steady.

As far as which boat is better for day sailing and short trips, I can't really say. The 25 is three feet longer and thus the berthing arrangement is probably a little better than the 22. The 22 has a small V-berth and two singles in the main cabin, but is very cramped.

There is a Catalina owners web site, www.catalinaowners.com, as well as e-mail lists for the various Catalina models. Current owners should be able to answer any questions you have on these two boats.


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## TSOJOURNER

I do have a Jeep Liberty. I am not certain how much it is capable of pulling, however the difference between a 22 and a 25 with respect to towing on a trailer is noted.

I want to start with at least a 22 ft. boat like the Catalina because of the possibility of overnighting onboard. While the cabin space is small and cramped, it is possible, while a 14 ft or 16 ft. boat does not even have a cabin, and does not offer that possibility. I have also read many reviews which stated that the C22 was an excellent first boat.


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## davidburklin

BRCincy said:


> I do have a Jeep Liberty. I am not certain how much it is capable of pulling, however the difference between a 22 and a 25 with respect to towing on a trailer is noted.
> 
> I want to start with at least a 22 ft. boat like the Catalina because of the possibility of overnighting onboard. While the cabin space is small and cramped, it is possible, while a 14 ft or 16 ft. boat does not even have a cabin, and does not offer that possibility. I have also read many reviews which stated that the C22 was an excellent first boat.


I'm still rather novice myself, but my 24' fixed keel (San Juan 24) could present a bit of a towing dilemna with a Jeep Liberty. Even with a full size chevy 3/4 ton truck, towing it is uncomfortable. It's not so much the pulling it that presents the challenge as it is stopping it. That's a LOT of weight to have pushing you from behind.

Not saying it can't be done, just be careful. I've seen too many ugly situations arise from people who think just cause a vehicle is capable of connecting to a trailer and making it go forward that they are safe towing it.


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## TSOJOURNER

Don't these trailers have brakes? I have towed trailers before. I used to pull a bobcat behind a Ford 1/2 ton pickup, but the drag had brakes which made it very managable. My Dad's powerboat trailer has brakes, and he pulls his 19' Monterey powerboat with a Jeep Grand Cherokee with no problem. I will have to look into weight and mass limits for the Liberty, and whether these trailers have braking systems.


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## TSOJOURNER

OK, after a quick look at the specs, the Jeep Liberty can tow 5000 lbs. The Catalina 22 weight is 2600 lbs aprox. It should work, especially if the trailer has brakes. If it doesn't, couldn't brakes be added?


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## sailingdog

Is the 2600 lbs. the dry weight of the boat, or the weight of the boat loaded with equipment, gear, food, gas, and water? If the former, then you're probably about 800 pounds light on the weight. 

The trailer is probably about 1000 lbs. as a rough guess based on the size and weight of my trailer. That means you might be as high as 4400 lbs for the trailer and boat. 

Yes, surge brakes can be added to a trailer, but you're much better off having them installed by the trailer manufacturer. The surge brakes need to have a different trailer yoke installed and the brake drums still have to be added...which might be more than you want to do. It is also significantly cheaper to have the factory add brakes than it is to do it as an after market modification.


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## TSOJOURNER

The 2600 lb figure is the dry weight of the boat. The 4400 lbs fully loaded on the trailer is probably a good guess. Jeep should be capable of doing this, however, since it is under 5000 lbs. But it is borderline. Probably not wise to attempt it. I suppose one could rent a larger vehicle to pull a boat and trailer, for the longer trips. I know this, I can't afford a boat and a new car.


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## sailingdog

BRCincy said:


> The 2600 lb figure is the dry weight of the boat. The 4400 lbs fully loaded on the trailer is probably a good guess. Jeep should be capable of doing this, however, since it is under 5000 lbs. But it is borderline. Probably not wise to attempt it. I suppose one could rent a larger vehicle to pull a boat and trailer, for the longer trips. I know this, I can't afford a boat and a new car.


Especially with gas prices as high as they are... renting a truck to tow the boat and trailer with, or using a friend's larger SUV might make a lot of sense.


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## camaraderie

BRCincy..In the interest of brevity, I would say forget about the 25 and go with the 22. Both are nice 1st boats and the 25 would be better for weekending...but trailering and mast stepping is much easier with the 22 swing keel and your Liberty CAN handle it...especially in OHIO! <grin>
As suggested: 
1. Take good care and maintain the swing keel tube and wire and SHACKLE.
2. Get yourself the wooden mast stepping rig or make one a it will make getting rigged a whole lot easier. Here's two ways to do it:

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/rwahlfel/www/c22maint.htm

Have fun!


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## TSOJOURNER

camaraderie said:


> ...but trailering and mast stepping is much easier with the 22 swing keel and your Liberty CAN handle it...especially in OHIO! <grin>


I am very glad to hear that. Now a question for you: Is the Wing Keel also trailerable, and launchable on a ramp? Or would the swing keel be preferable to the wing keel in this case? (Wing Keel having the maintenance advantage)


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## cardiacpaul

you're going to get sick of stepping that mast after doing it 3-4 times.


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## edtolman

Thanks for the post...I too am interested in buying a first time boat.


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## sailingdog

Paul's got a good point... might want to look at this thread:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/buying-boat/18144-pros-cons-trailering.html


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## TSOJOURNER

Thanks for the link.


May I ask, what would be a good trailer sailer? Makes and models? I was under the impression that the Catalina 22 was one, but now I am not so sure. Maybe something smaller, a daysailer?

Thanks


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## Lostmt

*Swing Keel or Fixed*

You can pull as much weight as your Jeep will untrack. The main problem with that is tongue weight. All new double axle trailers today have breaks. You would first need overload springs to level out the Jeep. Second a strong receiver hitch.

I pull a gooseneck 2 horse inline weight 2300 lbs, 1000 lbs of tack, feed, etc.. 2 horse average weight 1200 lbs add another 500 lbs for tool box tools extra spare tires etc.. Total about 3 tons. I would not think you Jeep would weight much less than my 67 chev 1/2 ton pickup Pulled from Texas to Montana more than once. Maybe you could find a cheap good older pickup and use it. Aint got to be new to go have fun with.


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## cardiacpaul

to be cranky for a minute....

stepping the mast will take what, 30 minutes on a good day when all of the moons are aligned, to 2 hours, depending how many adult beverages are consumed before the task is completed.

In addition to stopping the whale behind you, have an 18-wheeler fly by at 70 mph and see what happens to the tow vehicle... can you say conga line?

Another thing... pulling the 2600lb to 4000lb beached whale out of the water on a greasy 20-30 degree ramp with 6 guys waiting to haul out their 40k, 19 ft bass boats ain't gonna be fun. I'm not saying you can't do it, i'm asking... wheres the fun?


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## ilnadi

First, there is a Catalina 25 site (http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/default.asp) with hundreds of postings discussing Swing vs. Wing. Many people there have setups that allow them to step/unstep the mast single handed (ours is a wing-keel in a slip, so can't help you there).

Second, a C25 with engine, fuel, gear, water, trailer, etc is probably over 6500 lbs. Someone who trailers can give you a better number.

There are C250 water-ballast boats but they are newer and more expensive.


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## sailingdog

As I said in the other thread... it really has a lot to do with how simple the boat is to rig. If the boat is complicated to rig and takes too much time to do so, you won't sail it as often as a boat that is simple to rig and can be done in just a few minutes. 

For instance, on my friend's Ranger, the mast takes an hour or more to rig. On another friend's trimaran, which is a bit larger, it takes about 20 minutes to rig, 30 if the mast is down. Needless to say, the trimaran is sailed a bit more...


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## SailinJay

In my earlier post, I mentioned the issue of raising and lowering the mast. What I didn't say was that I ended up keeping my C-22 in the water in a slip, hauling out at the end of each season. It is a trailerable boat but you do have that mast to contend with twice each time you sail.

I also should have clarified that the swing keel system may be better on newer 22s than on my 30-year-old boat. You do have to pay attention to the system and do the checks and/or maintenance faithfully.

I modified my boat to have all sail controls running to the cockpit, including a jib downhaul to allow me to drop the jib from the cockpit. The main sheet is at the end of the boom, and is very easy to control while sailing with the tiller. Despite the complaints I have with the swing keel system, the C-22 is a good boat to learn on and very easy to handle by oneself.


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## sailingdog

Ahh... that makes dealing with the mast much simpler. 

I keep my trailerable trimaran, which is a bit different from my friend's boat, in a marina slip as well. His mast lower and raising system is dependent on his trailer winch—mine is not, and I can use mine on the boat, even in the water. I just prefer to be able to get on the boat and sail off. 

I am in the process of designing and running most of the lines aft to the cockpit, but have not done so yet. 

I have a centerboard design boat.


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## TSOJOURNER

Bring help if you buy a 25 to get the mast up it is not a one man job. The 22 can be done single handed if done correct.


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## OhioSailor

*Re: Another Reasonable Option*

Consider that Erie is quite a jaunt from Cinci. You would need to allot about 4 hours travel time (each) pulling a boat and trailer and significant fuel expense. In addition, you need two people to setup and the time involved. This IMHO takes away from overall sailing time (and opportunities). Consider sailing on Brookville lake in Indiana. You can be there in less than an hour and leave your boat cheaply on a mooring. There is plenty of room to develop as a sailor.
I've done this and I now sail 2x/wk between April and October. My skills and experience have grown greatly this year. I feel that I could have this boat mastered in two seasons and then take on bigger goals.
If you would like to go, just PM me and we can go from there.

Good sailing.


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## MoonSailer

Swing keel offers many advantages. Pure sailing a fixed keel is best. But when you want to gunk hole for the night a swing keel provides access to shallower water. I remember one anchorage on a lake that my wife and I liked a lot. The anchorage itself was about 10' deep but we had to go through some 3' water to get there. I also used the swing keel as a bottom finder. Lowered but not locked in place I could motor along slowly in shallow water. If it hit bottom a few cranks would raise it off the bottom. A very uneventful grounding with no harm. Wing keels are like anchors!!!!!! Once they dig into the bottom it is very difficult to get free. Also a swing keel should have less draft than a comparable wing keel.


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## sailaway21

I'm betting that the OP has figured it out in the intervening two years since he asked the question. (g)


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## tommyt

Sway, be nice now. Actually I looked earlier today, and as of April of this year he was looking for basically the same thing. 

So, still a relevant conversation for some.


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## sailaway21

Mea culpa, and a tip of the cap to Tommy.


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## Powerdude

Thanks for this thread. I'm basically thinking the same thing. Catalina 25, probably a swing keel or fin keel to trailer. Don't particularly want to pay slip fees, and the slip would be a way away since I live out in the desert in AZ.


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## Perithead

Powerdude,

Just to let you know, this thread hasn't been active since August of 2008. Not really a big deal, but some people get a little ancy when people post on an old thread. No big deal to myself however.

I'd probably go with the fin keel myself though. 

Have fun in the desert!


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## Sailormon6

Powerdude, I had a Catalina 25, tall rig, fin keel, for > 20 years and had a great time with the boat, but it was a bear to trailer. It's heavy, as 25 foot boats go, and takes a fairly serious tow vehicle to pull it on the highway, as well as pull it up the boat ramp. When I towed it through mountains with my first tow vehicle, I had to stop periodically on the longest hills, pour a jug of water over the radiator to cool it, and then tow it the rest of the way up the hill.

The mast is heavy, and can't be raised by one person without using an A frame or similar gin pole system, and that takes time and work to set it up, and you will soon tire of doing all that work. It isn't the kind of work you will be willing to do, just to sail for a day or a weekend. 

The fin keel has 4 foot draft, and you'll find that it's often hard to find boat ramps that can launch a boat that deep. Many boat ramps are used primarily by fishermen and small sailing dinghies, who's boats can be floated off the trailer in 3' of water. You'll need a minimum of about 5 feet of water at the ramp to float a fin keel C25 off the trailer. If you can't trailer launch it, you might have to pay a marina to hoist it for you, which is very expensive.

When I bought mine, I intended to trailer it to Lake Erie, Lake Michigan and Florida, but rarely trailered it anywhere. I kept it in the water in a slip throughout the summer, and only trailered it a few miles each year, to and from the dry storage lot.

As much as I liked my C 25, I don't think it's the best choice, considering your plan to trailer sail it.


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## Powerdude

Thanks for the advice.

Well, coming from powerboats (hence the name) that I've been around all my life, and being really used to trailering them to local lakes, I guess I just assumed you could do the same thing for sailboats.

Actually, I'm pretty tired of engines as a main source of propulsion, hence a newfound interest in sailboats.

Sorry for the old thread thing. I didnt see the date since I found it using Google after I registered. Didn't mean to beat a dead horse.

Problem around me is that there are some nice lakes, but most of the LARGER bodies of water, like Sea of Cortez or San Diego are a good 6-8 hours away. Since used boats generally require lots of TLC and time, I figured trailering woudl be the way to go. Most marinas seem to have rules prohibiting serious working on boats, and since a slip would be far away, it would be difficult to justify not only slip expenses but also paying somebody to do the work, since I'm a pretty handy guy.

Anyway...I guess I'll just continue to lurk around submarine style...


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## Perithead

Powerdude,

Sailormon has made a good point and one that I can say I have experienced and I agree with. Having a boat that is to large to trailer isn't much fun to rig, launch, retrieve, and de-rig in a day. This really deters you from doing short day trips to the local lake which are sometimes the most enjoyable.

If you are used to powerboats which you just pull up to the ramp, unstrap, then your off a sailboat is ALOT more work getting onto the water.

My advice would be to consider a smaller boat so that taking it in and out of the water would be easier and you would be able to sail easier and therefore would sail more often, which is what it's all about.

Myself, I am selling my 29' sailboat and downsizing to about a 17' sailboat maybe 23'. It seems I have learned the lesson that smaller is better, for me at least.


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## stevecook

I've been dragging my Catalina 22 swing keel over the mountains from the desert to san diego almost ever other weekend for a year and a half; it's a two hour drive
I step the mast in about 20 minutes now. More often than not I'm alone and just ask somebody at the ramp for a hand.
I usually always stay at least one night on the boat because it's such a drive it would be a waste to put it up and take it right down again... although I have done that on occasion.
I'll be out on the boat for a week starting this thursday and I just got back from staying on it for a week two weeks ago.
The 22 is cramped but I figure it's like camping.
I'm looking at Catalina 25 swing keel on a trailer right now... it's MUCH roomier
I tow with either a gmc yukon V8 or a toyota tocoma V6
I'm sure the Yukon could tow the 25 and I'm pretty sure the tacoma would make short work of it also with its 6500 lb towing capacity

I really want a 40 foot boat but I don't want the slip fees and the bottom cleaning and all that. Plus I don't want to be stuck to one place


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## fergman300

I have a Ensenada 20 and have been happy with it. Stepping the mast is one element of trialer sailing thats critical. IF your going to go down and sail for the day then coming home... I would get a smaller sail boat than a Catalina 22. Even with two people stepping the mast......there will be occasions that the second person cant help at the end of the day. Then its all on you to get it down, and get it home.... that can happen.


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## WDS123

First Boat ?

Smaller is better always 

You can also check out some of the Santana trailer boats from the late 1980s and early 1990s. 

Might even look at a Santana 525 - inexpensive and only 2,600 lbs. 

Here is a sailnet review of the popular Santana 2023


"LOA: 23' DRAFT: 18"/~4' DISP: 1750(dry)/3050(wet)
This is the easiest to trailer, rig (10 min.), and launch of any of the water ballast boats I looked at (this is directly proportional to how much it will be used). This is a boat for someone who will be putting in and taking out every outing.
The "C" is for cruising model, large cabin, pop top, galley, enclosed head. It is very large inside, given the above "tradeoffs". Roller furling jib AND Boom Roller furling/reefing main.
The only weakness that I have seen to date (1yr of sailing) is the water ballast makes for a tender boat (over a deep weighted keel). However, this is an issue with all water ballast boats. Bottom line: If you want to bring it home and put it in your garage every time out, it's either water ballast or centerboard, and water ballast does offer advantages over the centerboard for stability.
Overall satisfaction is very high. Although, I am not a racer, nor an offshore cruiser. 
This boat is great for up to 3 people (comfortably) for a week or more in coastal and protected waters."


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## RedtheBear

The Bear's 2 cents,
The Cal 22 is a good begining boat, small yes, but a couple can weekend overnite in reasonable comfort. Party barge it ain't! Using a jeep to tow it is pushing it but can be done, though to go up to lake Eire woud be about all I would be the furtherest I would trip it. 
Any trailer boat is a small pain in the rear to rig before going out but thats the price you pay for no dock fees, movement to different lakes and having it in the backyard for maintenance and upgrades instead of down at the club X number of miles away.
The Cal offers several jibs and spiniker to learn from and can show a good turn of speed and thrills depending on your learning curve, and lots of differnt strings for kids and or guest to hang on to...under her captains supervision of course. 
The question of swing or full keel is a matter of where you launch. A shallow
ramp can be a major problem with a full keel. A deep steep ramp can put your5jeep in a strain particularly when its wet and muddy. Yes, I know 4 wheel dive and all that I have also seen 4 wheel F250 super duty's slide butt first to the bed on a slick ramp. To me the variable depth of a swing keep in lakes is the advantage, running up on shore in your own secluded beach, slipping over the shallows to places deep keels will never go. In the Big lakes (Eire)
the Fixed keel offers a bit maybe of piece of mind but it's only in your mind. Both keel designs are designed for the limits of safe sailing of the craft.
Maintanince of the swing keel can be and often is more than a fixed keel but is usually cheaper and can be done in the back yard. Think repairing a cracked leading edge of a fixed keel that ran into a rock at speed, not the mention hull cracks from the impact, a swing keel will have bounced up into the case and scared you but problably nothing else that some refairing paste and a grinder can fix.
All in all it maybe apples and oranges or just winesaps or romas. See if you can find one of each and take them out for a few hours and see what you think, you're the Captain. It's your boat. Welcome to the wonderful world of rag boats. 
O, by the way, you will need a bigger, heavyer tow car when you get 2'itis.

Soft breezes and smooth waters.


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## Jaspell

I can't tell if anyone answered this: what does the C22 draw with the keel up? can anyone comment on how they serve as a shoal draft vessel? Ie, as compared with a boat with a centerboard.


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## Sailormon6

I believe the C22 has 2' draft with the keel up, and 5' with it down.


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## OtterGreen

i have a Santana 23' and love it. it has a swing keel ( more like a centerboard ) and waterballast. the area where i sail can be extremely shallow so with board and rudder up i draw 12 inches. haulouts are a breeze but i keep it in a sleep seasonally. i over night as much as i can and last season spent about 5 days in the fall exploring some new spots. it has its drawbacks like headroom and being a relativly light boat ( 1100 lbs dry and 2600 lbs with the ballast filled) you need to reef and furl while heavier boats can handle the wind. overall it suits my needs and discussion has come up about bigger boats but for right now the pros outweigh the cons. my old boat ( cal 20 ) was a nightmare. that 600 lb lead keel was always having issues .


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## Landlocked in Ohio

To Ohio Sailor -

Newbie in Dayton. Looking to buy my first sailboat. Would love to go out with someone with more experience than I. I am 36, married with no kids, mechanic, introvert, laid back, cover band drummer, beer drinker... I am happy to just be on the water. If you need help on a cruise, or are willing to help a newb, I would love to hear from you.

Keith
[email protected]


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## Sailormon6

Keith - Talk to the people at Strictly Sail, a Cincinnati sailboat dealer, right away. They sponsor a sailing outing every year, in which people can go sailing with area boat owners, and see what sailing is all about. It's free, and Strictly Sail provides burgers and dogs, etc. Do it soon, because it usually happens about this time each year. (I'm not connected with them, but used to sail in that area for many years, and am very familiar with them.) Their hyperlink is at Strictly Sail Home Page


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## Landlocked in Ohio

Thanks! I wanted to take their last sailing class of the year, but unfortunately, I had a prior engagement. I signed up for their e-mail newsletter.


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## rightbrainer

Here's my 2 cents worth...
I have a Capri 22 Tall Rig, Wing Keel. I really like the boat, but I don't think I would have liked to start out on it. I learned on a 13'6" Blue Jay and had bunch of other boats including a 19' Valk, a Hobie 16, a Santana 20 and an O'Day 28.

I second the comment that your biggest issue is raising and lowering the mast. I made a gin pole arrangement out of fencing material from the local Lowes that cost me about $50 bucks. Essentially, it is a bipod strut that improves the hoisting angle as you raise the mast using the spinnaker halyard and the mainsheet tackle. There are lots of videos and pictures around to give you the idea. I can raise and lower my very long mast single-handed with relative ease.

Once you get good at it, I would plan to spend at least an hour at the launch site getting the boat rigged for sailing, which includes tuning the rigging, putting in (and taping) all those pesky split rings and bending on the sails. It's at least that long to de-rig the boat and get ready for the road at the other end of your trip. The first few times could easily take twice that long because there is no room for error when you have that mast half way up or down, so you'd better check everything over very carefully. If that mast falls, something is going to break. If you're lucky it will break something you already own.

My Capri weighs about 2,250# in fighting trim and plus maybe 250 pounds of outboard motor, extra sails and miscellaneous *ahem* crap that I haul around. The trailer must weigh close to 1,000# for a total over-the-road weight of 3,500#. If you've ever towed a trailer that weighed more than the tow vehicle you'll remember that creepy feeling when the trailer tried to boss the tow vehicle. You'll need a truck to pull a rig this size up the ramp.

My advice is to start smaller. Your issues are not proportional to the length of the boat, but to the weight of the boat. A 600# O'Day DaySailor or a 1,000# Rhodes 19 boat can be moved around by a couple of guys and you can put up the mast with muscle power. On a 2,500# boat, those things require blocks and tackle. I recommend starting with a centerboard day sailing type under 20'. They are great boats to learn on for not much money. You'll sail a lot more with a smaller boat. I'll bet 85 percent of the people on this board started in a small boat and many of us have come back to a small boat. You can do a surprising amount of cruising with a little imagination.

Once you've been out on your small boat 50 times, you'll know whether you want to move to a bigger boat or just put your money into a new suit of sails and a boom tent.

Calm seas and fair winds,


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## zumogo

*first time sailor shopping*

i read this thread found it helpful its old but helpful. i also was looking into a trail able sailboat. i have look into the 22 n 25 catalinas and i think i might just get the 22 and pay for a slip. i mean the 25 has more room but i don't know if my expedition will tow it. i do have a family of 5 (3kids) that's y the 25 would be more comfortable but i guess i will settle w/ the 22. any thoughts?


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## jimgo

The advice on the C25 owner's forum (Catalina - Capri - 25s International Association) is, generally, to get a long wheelbase pick-up truck to tow a C25. Some are using Jeep Grand Cherokees or the like with success, but others have said that something akin to a Tahoe (if I recall correctly) was pushed around by the boat not too long ago when it caught some uneven pavement. With trailer, the C25 weighs somewhere in the 5500-6000 lbs ("dry"); add in gear and you're looking at easily 6000 lbs. Build in a 20% margin of error/safety factor, and you'll need something that is rated in the 7000+ lbs towing range. I'm not sure of your model year, but technically the 2012 with the HD towing package is rated to tow 8700 lbs, though the "standard" version is only rated to 6000 lbs ( towing specs here ). So you might be ABLE to tow it, assuming you're properly equipped, but whether it's advisable to ACTUALLY pull a 25+ foot long, 6000+ lb object behind your 17' long, 5500 lb vehicle is another story, and a decision I'll leave in your hands.

FWIW, I'm a new owner of a 1984 C25 and don't have a trailer for mine. We've decided that, at least for now, we'll keep her in the water and at a marina over the winter, so the lack of a trailer isn't a big problem (though having one would be nice). The 25 offers significantly more room in the cabin (it's amazing what 3' will do!) than most 22's, and the layouts are much nicer. If you're going to pay for a slip anyway, I'd go for the 25. Sure, you'll pay a bit more for the slip, but the bigger boat will be nice. For reference, mine is a family of 4, with 2 kids (6 and almost 4). We looked at 22's and 23's, and I'm really glad we went with the 25. Also a FWIW, while I have a swing keel and probably would get it again, I'd give the wing keel very serious consideration if I could find one. I imagine that the peace of mind of not having to worry about whether a massively heavy object might break free at any moment and disable/sink your boat would be kind of nice.

You didn't mention, is this your first boat? Do you have any experience with sailing? If you haven't sailed before, I'd respectfully suggest learning on something smaller before moving up. The 25 is my first sailboat, and I'm not incredibly experienced, but I logged many hours in smaller craft (14's and 19's) before deciding a) to buy, and b) to go with a 25. Much of this aspect of the discussion is probably best moved to a different thread, or you're welcome to PM me if you want more info.


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## zumogo

jumgo, 

Yes it will be my first boat. i do plan on taking a course on sailing in pt. pleasant or jersey city. i also found out that my expedition(98) has 8100lbs tow capacity. so i think i will go w/ the 22catalina or look into them macgregors w/ water ballast. the boat most likely will be in lake hopatcong since i am 5 min away. but its going up/down a mountain so towing is a concern.
thank for the reply

Joe


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## skygazer

I just read this entire thread through, and even though it spans a number of years it is a good, coherent read. All except for the posts complaining that it is an old thread. I searched for "Catalina 25" and this came up, yes I'm looking at a possible buy.

I realize that the forum rules suggest starting a new thread, so I'm not saying those people were wrong.

It might be time to change the rules on old threads. With current search engines the internet is no longer strictly a "within the forum" thing. I don't see how numerous threads on the same subject is better than one good discussion where things don't have to be repeated.

I'm glad this (long term) thread exists, it is exactly the type of discussion I was looking for.


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## ppiccolo1

Yeah, it drives me nuts when people post the proverbial eye roll when a dated thread is brought back to life... this one was incredibly helpful to me, considering I bought a 25' catalina and trailer last month. Probably the same ones that tell ya to do a search the topic has been discussed 1,000 times.


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## skygazer

ppiccolo1 said:


> the same ones that tell ya to do a search the topic has been discussed 1,000 times.


 :laugher


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## skygazer

ppiccolo1 said:


> I bought a 25' catalina and trailer last month.


That's what I'm considering looking at. One for sale on a trailer within driving distance. From the photo it looks like a swing keel. I just bought a similar sized Seafarer 24 last fall, shouldn't even consider looking, but what if I like it better? 

Too early I know, but what are your impressions?


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## zumogo

well honestly if you search it or google it this thread comes out every time. So i guess time is not a issue


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## ppiccolo1

I found the perfect boat, for me (love the pop-top, like my old VW westfalia campervan). However, I have a 3/4 ton suburban that'll tow 10,000# and it will be on a slip in Lake Michigan 6 months, then head south for the winter. It's a fin keel as well, so I budget an additional $1,000 a year for haul/launch. The PO was a huge plus, retired and physically unable to sail, the boat had been stored inside since 1992. The most helpful gentleman I could have asked for as a newbie. He, BTW used a half-ton pick-up, but it's no trailer-sailer. It'll work perfect for 2x a year though.


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## MrGaston

I've read a lot on the internet about trailering a sailboat. Specifically a Catalina 25 swing keel. In every case people list the displacement as the empty weight of the boat. This is not right is it? Isn't the displacement of a boat the weight of the boat loaded to it's maximum capacity? 

If I am correct about that, it seems to me that the towing weight of a Catalina 25 would actually be more like 3500 lb (guess) empty boat + around 1200 lb (another guess) for a tandem axle trailer + maybe 500 lb (estimate rather than guess)for things on the boat. Something like 5200 lb towing weight.

Am I missing something?


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## jimgo

Jeff_H and others would know better, but I believe the listed displacement is the weight of the boat when outfitted by the manufacturer in its standard configuration (i.e., it's weight without your "stuff" aboard). That is, essentially, the minimum it will weigh. The general guidance, if you're looking at a C25 that doesn't have an inboard, is to tack on about 1000 lbs if you want to get the boat's weight, and another 1200-1500lbs for the trailer if you're figuring out whether your vehicle can/should tow it. 1000 lbs may sound like a lot, but 10% of it will be the engine. Water and fuel will contribute another 50-100 lbs. Then there are PFD's, fishing rods, anchors, batteries, food, and a bunch of other stuff that quickly adds up. When I was shopping for my current SUV, I assumed I needed something that was rated for at least 6000 lbs if I wanted to tow our C25.


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## sethpool

I realize this is an old thread, but it apparently gets resurrected every other year, and since someone else will stumble into it like I did, I thought I'd post a link to an extensive review of the Catalina 25 review I researched and wrote. Fair winds!

Catalina 25 Review | Which Sailboat?


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## skygazer

sethpool said:


> I realize this is an old thread, but it apparently gets resurrected every other year, and since someone else will stumble into it like I did, I thought I'd post a link to an extensive review of the Catalina 25 review I researched and wrote. Fair winds!
> 
> Catalina 25 Review | Which Sailboat?


Thank you for your post. I read your entire review and found it to be wonderfully detailed and informative. It even gave me insights into other boats I own or have owned or looked at. Probably the best and most complete review of any sailboat I've ever seen.

Thanks again for the huge effort you put into sharing your knowledge.


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## sethpool

skygazer said:


> Thank you for your post. I read your entire review and found it to be wonderfully detailed and informative. It even gave me insights into other boats I own or have owned or looked at. Probably the best and most complete review of any sailboat I've ever seen.
> 
> Thanks again for the huge effort you put into sharing your knowledge.


Thank you very much for your kind remarks.


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## SHNOOL

You didn't wait the requisite 2 years to dredge this up again...


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## quint

Vehicle capacity to pull the load aside, You can't go very far wrong with either of the Catalinas. the 22' including Capri has a large class and you can trailer it easily. But weekends are a lot like camping.
The 25 is a well designed boat, large class, and comes in 3 keel configs. I believe. Also very popular and should retain value. 
You know either boat can be left in the water at dock or anchor, and won't take on rainwater.(if towing is inconvenient).

I chose a trailerable Hunter 23 as my "return to sailing" first boat. It compares to both Catalinas except it doesn't point quite as well with a wing keel. But I still do well racing. It is a little less like camping.

The biggest thing is to assess your short term needs. There is a great article in this months Cruising World 9/15 Page 64 I think. Excellent decision making framework.

There is no sailor that will judge your choice of boat. And a smooth sea never made a skilled sailor.
Get a boat that you can use and just don't mess with the weather too much. Any thunderstorm can and will run you down when you can only make 6 knots. Practice reefing, Hoving to, and do Man overboard drills regularly.
Good sailing and beautiful sunsets to you and your crew. BTW plan to return to port on a downwind. Pure delight.


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## skygazer

quint said:


> I chose a trailerable Hunter 23 as my "return to sailing" first boat. It compares to both Catalinas except it doesn't point quite as well with a wing keel. But I still do well racing. It is a little less like camping...
> 
> ...And a smooth sea never made a skilled sailor.
> Get a boat that you can use and just don't mess with the weather too much.


The Hunter 23 is an great boat! I've survived some rough stuff in mine.

I have owned a Hunter 23 for about four years, and really like it. Here is another thread with some discussion about it:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/96617-hunter-23-a.html

As far as mast raising, the H-23 has a longer mast than usual for a small boat, the length works against you when stepping. I now use a double block system at the mooring pin to increase my own leverage, with the line running down the starboard side to the winch. With a gin pole and two conduits stopping sway I can raise and lower the mast by myself, and stop anywhere along the way to clear shrouds or lines. I generally raise the mast on the water, either at the dock or on a mooring or anchor. I originally raised the mast in my backyard while working out my system.

Warning!! Be certain to jam a trimmed wine cork or similar in the slot above the J hook at the top of the mast where the forestay hooks in, so it can't shift during the mast lifting. Also, I wrap small ball bungees around the turnbuckles on the side shrouds so they stand up and swivel fore and aft, this prevents them from bending - something I've seen a lot.

It's a fast boat, and a great inshore sailer. My wife and I have lived on board for a full week or longer each year. It is too light for offshore work. It is my favorite overall compromise for hauling around, setting up, and staying on and sailing.

We just came back from trailer launching our Victoria 18 on Casco Bay in Maine, tiny ship almost the size of a canoe with a lead keel. I love it! We can actually sleep on it, but it is so tiny! We actually sailed out quite far, but mostly gunk holed around places we never dared go before in a larger boat. Perfect for exploring. You forget you are sailing such a small boat when on it.

Fog bank rushing in fast:


Victoria 18 gunk hole island beach, anchored:


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