# What is your opinion of Bavaria's?



## manhattan08 (Mar 2, 2009)

I have looked through Yeachtworld and a few other websites and found that used Bavaria's are really reasonably priced, more so than other big production boats like Hunter, Bene, and Catalinas. Why is that? How do the Bavaria's compare in terms of quality and handling to the other big production boats?


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## Caymanpete (Sep 1, 2011)

I can speak of their build quality and their sea keeping. Firstly, if you make a comparison based on the known build quality of motor vehicles, the Bavaria comes out as the VW of the boating world. That is by no means a criticism, since VW are renown for their economical design and reliability. Personally while fitting new Nav instruments, I was impressed with the way that the existing looms were run and they had even left a 'mouse' so that further wires could be run easily along the same route. Clean, simple and functional design throughout - very typical of the Germans .
As to sea keeping. IMHO the ultimate test of any boat is how it makes you feel during a bad blow. Heaved-to in the Bay of Biscay, on delivery passage to Gibralter, the boat felt solid and secure, giving the (off watch) crew the confidence to go below for a brew!


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## TQA (Apr 4, 2009)

They sell lots of boats. There are a few that have issues, most famously those that had the keels come loose and in at least one case fall off. But a closer examination would show that their safety records are OK.

Big numbers in the Med charter fleets and they do OK. 

Basically you get a lot of boat for the money.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

TQA said:


> They sell lots of boats. There are a few that have issues, most famously those that had the keels come loose and in at least one case fall off. But a closer examination would show that their safety records are OK.
> 
> Big numbers in the Med charter fleets and they do OK.
> 
> Basically you get a lot of boat for the money.


Not again that story with the keel. It was not on the main cruising line but on a performance line they discontinued. They had only problems with the 42 and it seemed to me more a problem of optimistic design than a building problem.

The other boats on the line, the 35 and 38 never had problems:

*The first - the Match 35 - competed successfully in a number of Mediterranean regattas. It was followed by the Match 38, one of which competed in the 2004 Sydney to Hobart race.

Of the 116 yachts that started that race 59 retired because of the extreme conditions created by 60 knots winds. The Match 38 - Cure Our Kids - finished 23rd out of the remaining 57. Another Match 38 - Slipknot - finished the last season in Auckland with a cabinet full of trophies.*

Bavaria Match 42

They have repaired (modified) all existing 42ft boats and if you have a look at the boat value of the Bavaria Match 42 on the used market you will see that it is good and that suggests that the modification was more than effective and had finished with the problem.

Bavaria 42 Match for sale and charter | TheYachtMarket

Many Bavarias had circumnavigated and some have done it with 36fts. A countryman of mine had done it twice with the same 36ft Bavaria, solo, and it was not the only one, I mean solo circumnavigating on a 36ft Bavaria :

Sail-World.com : Bavaria yachts' offshore success

Regards

Paulo


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## jzk (Feb 25, 2008)

I have seen some very nice looking Bavaria 49s (5-cabin) in Croatia for $98,000 or so on yachtworld. Seems like quite the deal. Better yet if you can find one with a yanmar.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Speaking (typing?) very subjectively what puts me off Bavarias (80s/90s) is the 'chocolate brown' gelcoat they used on their liners below. A minor matter, I know....

The keel issue was rare and limited to a few (or less) examples of a race model. Never an issue on the cruising line AFAIK.

I think they are probably pretty nice boats to live with. Around here they are not particularly 'bargain priced'..


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

I've always liked the look of the Bavarias but find the interiors disappointing. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not expecting Hallberg Rassey quality but but but. My particular disappointment was that in order to seemingly maximise interior space they push the v-berth right up into the bow. 
I do stress that the only Bavarias I have been on board were at boat shows and latest would be three or four years ago, so its quite possible that they have interior layouts that overcome these criticisms though I also seems to find these shortcomings in adverts for 2nd hand boats. This when we were looking over the past few years.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

About interiors regarding the boats from 2000/2009 I like the interiors of the smaler boats (32, 36 and 38) and I don't like the interiors of the bigger boats.

I like particularly the one from the 38 that I think it is a great cruising boat and a lot of boat for the money:


















































































Of course, this is even better looking, the Bavaria Match 38:


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Paulo, I look at that and realise my criticism was either unjustified or more likely out of date. That is a lot of boat (interior) for 38'. Not much of a lazarette but hey, something has to give.


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## Tafa (Feb 8, 2012)

I had the chance to visit Bavaria boat yard in 2006 and had the whole factory tour. It was a week after that unfortunate Match 42 accident. They did not let us take any pictures.

Summary of my observations,

- At the first glance it's big but not so organized factory. At that time they were having some issues on maintaining standard on finishing. I saw same line of boats with different quality of workmanship. Later same year, a friend got his boat delivered with two different wood finish in the interiors. 

- They have an accelerated Hull/deck manufacturing process. At that time, they were laying fiberglass layers wet on wet and Drying the hull/deck in a gigantic oven. Some seasoned sailor friends thinks it's not the best way to make fiberglass hull/deck. May cause osmosis problems in the future. (I don't actually know how other mass boat producers are manufacturing the hull. This is just and observation and comment)

- The Hull/keel joint did not seem strong enough. There were no structural reinforcement in joint area. (I have to admit, we were still under the influence of Match 42 accident)

- Like other mass boat producers, they use market proven brand name components for electronics, plumbing, engine, running rigging, sails etc)

I've only sailed a 42 cruiser for a day trip in light air. So I have very very limited personal experience on performance. But everything on the boat worked properly on that short daysail.

Here's my 2c

Tafa


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Tafa,

Putting the hull/deck in an oven is many times a pretty common thing to do these days. I personally would not worry about that part of a boat I was going to buy. Many also heat and put some of the parts in a vacuum bag to help the resin get thru the cloth/glass part too. This helps keeps the hull/deck light, along with being strong. 

But as we all know, the human factor can be an issue with all manufacturing processes, so while something maybe a great way to build, if the humans do not do it correctly.....might as well be the worst way! then again, the worst way done with great care, may be better than the Best way with no care!

marty


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tdw said:


> Paulo, I look at that and realise my criticism was either unjustified or more likely out of date. That is a lot of boat (interior) for 38'. Not much of a lazarette but hey, something has to give.


No, not really. As I have said it was only the smaller boats that looked good. After that they got worst, less warm and more impersonal, or at least it is what I feel. It has nothing to do with quality, just with design.

For what I have seen from the new Bavaria Vision it seems they are finally improving. I hope that design quality reaches the cruiser series too.




























Regards

Paulo


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## JimMcGee (Jun 23, 2005)

Paolo,
That's a LOT of boat. What model is that?

I know what you mean about some boats feeling impersonal. It's something that can be hard to judge from pictures. But it's something you definitely FEEL when you step below.

Jim


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

JimMcGee said:


> Paolo,
> That's a LOT of boat. What model is that?
> 
> I know what you mean about some boats feeling impersonal. It's something that can be hard to judge from pictures. But it's something you definitely FEEL when you step below.
> ...


Jim, that is the new Bavaria Vision 46. I will bet that it will be nominated to next year European Boat of the year contest and it is a very innovative boat and one that seems to be made with living aboard on mind without compromising too much sailing potential. As you say the interior looks good, at least on the photos, and it seems a big improvement over what Bavaria used to offer.

When they have photos of the boat in the water I will post about it on the interesting sailboats thread. I will be following this one and I will be interested in knowing if its sailing performance is as good as the last Vision series. You know, the Vision series surprisingly sailed better than the Cruising series even it its looks suggested otherwise.






Regards

Paulo


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## RobGallagher (Aug 22, 2001)

Honestly, I'm a bit miffed.

At 3:12 in the video I find that I must choose between an on-demand coffee maker OR beer on tap.

I fail to see the humor.


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## HBBurlington (Jan 17, 2011)

We boarded the 2012 36ft'er at the Toronto Boat Show, and I swooned over the (BMW) interior...Maybe it was just the show boat, but the fit and finish were beautiful, and I liked it over the Bennie and the Dufour that were nearby.

Schwing!!!!


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

RobGallagher said:


> Honestly, I'm a bit miffed.
> 
> At 3:12 in the video I find that I must choose between an on-demand coffee maker OR beer on tap.
> 
> I fail to see the humor.


Well, the Guys will want the beer, the wives will want the coffee. It will be a coffee machine in 95% of the boats but anyway they want to show that they have tried to have a beer on tap there

Regards

Paulo


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

Tafa said:


> - They have an accelerated Hull/deck manufacturing process. At that time, they were laying fiberglass layers wet on wet and Drying the hull/deck in a gigantic oven. Some seasoned sailor friends thinks it's not the best way to make fiberglass hull/deck. May cause osmosis problems in the future. (I don't actually know how other mass boat producers are manufacturing the hull. This is just and observation and comment)Tafa


Autoclaving is about the BEST method for curing plastic resin - as long as it is tailored to the process - it's what they do with carbon spars for example. It's only the cost of the huge oven that has kept it from becoming the standard process everywhere.

Just think - you can take the time you need to lay out the fabric - no rush "before it kicks", just get everything just so, then bake it.


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

PCP said:


> Well, the Guys will want the beer, the wives will want the coffee. It will be a coffee machine in 95% of the boats but anyway they want to show that they have tried to have a beer on tap there
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


Hey Paulo,
do they run that coffee machine off shore power/inverter or has someone finally come up with a half decent 12v espresso machine ?
Andrew


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

That is an incredible boat, no doubt about it. Comparing it to my 1970 43' is laughable - you'd need an old Columbia 57 to even come close to that level of spaciousness. The bosun's locker is wonderful - almost as big as ONE of my cockpit lockers.

I have a couple of questions - how much $$$?

Is it just me or does the perfection of finish on the teak on new boats make it look artificial? My friends Hunter has that same kind of flawless finish and to me it looks like Arborite. I'd be tempted to go over it with a brush, just to introduce a little soul into it.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

tdw said:


> Hey Paulo,
> do they run that coffee machine off shore power/inverter or has someone finally come up with a half decent 12v espresso machine ?
> Andrew


Sorry, I don't know.

Regards

Paulo


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

Fuzzy,

If you have a truck stop around there, run into the store part some time, all kinds of 12V stuff you can buy that might work for a boat. As a lot of the truckers with sleepers need to work off of 12V just as boaters, RV'rs etc. Even an RV place may have a 12V coffee/espresso machine. 

Marty


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

SloopJonB said:


> That is an incredible boat, no doubt about it. Comparing it to my 1970 43' is laughable - you'd need an old Columbia 57 to even come close to that level of spaciousness. The bosun's locker is wonderful - almost as big as ONE of my cockpit lockers.
> 
> I have a couple of questions - how much $$$?
> 
> ..


As usual on Bavarias the boat would be aggressively priced. This boat will come already with a lot of equipment and it will be more expensive than the boat from the cruiser line (45ft). That one costs 175 525 € and the Vision 46 will cost 208 250€, but will have more equipment.

To give an idea of the competition the Jeanneau 45DS costs 224 080€ and the Benetau Oceanis 45 costs 198 370€.

All German prices including 19% VAT. Basic prices at the factory than it has more transport, epoxy barrier antifouling, rigging, launching and extras. I guess that a well equipped boat should cost about 240 000/250 000€.

Regards

Paulo


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## tdw (Oct 2, 2006)

Paulo and Marty,
There are 12v espresso machines but they are not perfect if you like an Italian style espresso, simply do not produce enough pressure. The only ones that work really well are the pump types and they are pretty power hungry. I was thinking/hoping that maybe someone had finally come up with a goodun. 
Cheers
Andrew


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Hey guys, take a look here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-...341-interesting-sailboats-239.html#post849780


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

What is going on in the US with the dealer network?


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

Some Bavarias that have circumnavigated, I mean the ones that had an internet blog and that had made it on the last 10 years.

Perithia - The story about a world trip with a sailing ship along the Amundsen-Route (north-west)

Hemingway

zeilboot senang

Sail-World.com : Bavaria yachts' offshore success

s/y Empire

Yagoona.de - Svenja Zielinski und Marc Panzer

Genuíno Madruga em volta ao Mundo

Well, there is something strange here: Not any of those boats was sailed by an English man or an American and only one was sailed by an English speaking guy, an Australian. It seems that Americans and English men don't trust Bavarias


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

PCP said:


> Well, there is something strange here: Not any of those boats was sailed by an English man or an American and only one was sailed by an English speaking guy, an Australian. It seems that Americans and English men don't trust Bavarias


Paulo,

This should be something to the effect "i seems no North americans will accept that a modern day European built boat can sail the oceans" or some such thing, be it a bavaria, Jeanneau, Beneteau, Finngulf, swan, oyster........need I add more names to the list?!?!?!

marty


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

The NAmerican style of boat!LOLOL


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

blt2ski said:


> The NAmerican style of boat!LOLOL


Aahh yes, Rockter's old shoe drawing. Those were the days!


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Don't intend to single out Bavaria here, but it bugs the hell out of me when a builder can't seem to be bothered to get even the simplest details right...

Here is the deck attachment point on a split backstay of one of the smaller Bavarias shown at Annapolis this year... Forget about the possibility it might be just a tad on the "light" side for a boat of that size. All it would have taken, is just a bit of _thought_ to get that stupid U-bolt properly aligned to the load it would see... Really makes you wonder about their engineering of stuff like keels, rudders, and whatnot...










Again, this sort of stuff is so distressingly commonplace on today's mass produced boats, it's a bit unfair to single out Bavaria, I've seen exactly the same thing on other _Brands_, as well...

As always, it all depends on your intended use of the boat... They're obviously a lot of boat/volume for the money, probably a great value for coastal/weekend/vacation sailing...

But for heading off for Bermuda, particularly aboard one that might be well towards the end of its useful Shelf Life? Well, perhaps not so much...


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

John,

Not sure if that pics issue would or would not be an issue.

A what I would call a bigger issue, was on a Catalina 34 down the dock from me. Deck mounted traveler, with built in fiberglass risers from the factory, a deck orginize to a clutch where the halyard had to go around touching/dragging etc on the fiberglass riser, causing the raising of that halyard to probably have twice the force one needed to normally raise a sail. There was no way one could raise said sail with any amount of hand doing, a winch was always needed! Then to make things worst, the winch was so far outward, you could not turn the winch 360* with out hitting the dodger!

I can fix the above pic problem easy enough. the line going thru a part of the boat.......a little harder!

Marty


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

blt2ski said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Paulo,
> 
> ...


I did not want to go that far, but if you say so....

Regards

Paulo


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## delite (Nov 2, 2009)

I was on a coupe of Bavaria's at the Vancouver Boat show and in the 32-38 foot range I really liked the looks and use of space. They seem to have good equipment but do some things I consider dangerous. The CNG or propane stove for example has the gas shut off right above the stove in a cabinet. They would also have a gas header inside the boat rather than in a drained locker.


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

JonEisberg said:


> ....
> As always, it all depends on your intended use of the boat... They're obviously a lot of boat/volume for the money, probably a great value for coastal/weekend/vacation sailing...
> 
> But for heading off for Bermuda, particularly aboard one that might be well towards the end of its useful Shelf Life? Well, perhaps not so much...


Off course there are better built and more resistant boats but these guys:











Perithia

Ship

Picked up a 2002 Bavaria 44 and circumnavigated and not any circumnavigation but one by the Northwest passage. You would say a 10 years boat is not an old boat, but this is a 10 year's old charter boat (Greece) a boat that had ended its useful life as a Charter boat and with the kind of abuse charter boats sustain I would say that each year of a charter boat will count as three in what regards the use of an average well maintained private boat.

The boat is for sale by 129000 euros and they say it is in very good condition

PERITHIA

And I believe that with a check-up it will be ready for another circumnavigation. I say this because I know a guy that has done two circumnavigations on the same Bavaria 36.

I guess that a boat that has made a circumnavigation (or two) will be able to head for Bermuda. I know it is ruff, but you have just to take it with care and to know what you are doing. Probably the boat can handle more than what you are able to or at least more than what 99.5% of the sailors can handle.

Regards

Paulo


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## rockDAWG (Sep 6, 2006)

manhattan08 said:


> What is your opinion of Bavaria's?


The new Bavaria 40 is very nice, especially when compared to Jeanneau 409. The dealer offer me a discount of 20K and one year free marina fee.

I haven't pulled the trigger becasue I thought i would be retiring. Now I am into a new business expansion, and just found out a month ago the daughter will be going Med School in Aug. There goes to my another $300K, although she said that she doesn't want me to pay. I can't see how I will let her do this with so much debt  I will work for another 5 years. The good news is I love what I do.

Anyway, the 40 is nice, comfortable cockpit and not too big to be dangerous. I love their new gallery along on the port side where most other sailboat have their settee. Because of this, there are plenty of counter top space and handrail. You can still cook easily under sail. There are plenty of space so that you don't need to stand in front the stove.

For the two cabin version, you have a built-in "garage" with lot of room and huge bath room and shower area. You can sit down and brace yourself during rough sea. No more plastic shower curtain just a few inches away and keep stick to your skin when sailing the OLD boat.

Another viable alternative is Dufour 40E. I sailed her last years and without trying, we passed every sailboats (10) in the bay. She is fast. Her bath and shower is separated. Great for wet locker. Behind the shower room is the garage.

There are lot of nice boats to buy.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

PCP said:


> I would say that each year of a charter boat will count as three in what regards the use of an average well maintained private boat.


I'd say that is being very generous - I'd put it at closer to 5 or 6 years. The 3 year old Harmony we chartered in the BVI looked like a 15 year old private boat in terms of wear on the hard parts.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

PCP said:


> I guess that a boat that has made a circumnavigation (or two) will be able to head for Bermuda. I know it is ruff, but you have just to take it with care and to know what you are doing. Probably the boat can handle more than what you are able to or at least more than what 99.5% of the sailors can handle.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paulo


You're right, of course, it's long ago been "proven" that just about any voyage can be undertaken and completed on just about anything that floats... Young Matt Rutherford, for example, is very close to proving that an Albin 27 is capable of a non-stop circumnavigation of the Americas... My only point is, such a boat would not be MY first choice for such a voyage...

The increasing use of U-bolts instead of proper chainplates on today's production boats is simply one of my pet peeves... I don't believe it's a proper setup, and it seems such a blatant example of a builder "cheaping out", and going with something easier, and will likely be "good enough"... And, it quite possibly will be, for 99% of the sailors of such boats... I could be wrong about that, of course... (grin)

Still, I don't like heading for a place like Bermuda aboard a boat I have _doubts_ about... Why should I assume the assembly line worker who installs the seacocks on today's Bavarias has more of a clue as to what he's doing than the guy who installs the deck hardware? What evidence do I have that the boys at the Bavaria factory know that, while a backstay tang may not be all THAT critical an installation, one can rest assure that they fully understand the importance of getting the installation of something below the waterline correctly, and the fitting of something like a seacock has been done to absolute perfection?

I'm sure my attitude sounds somewhat obsessive or even anal to many, but my experience has taught me one Dirty Little Secret about how 99.9% of boats "outlast" their crews when the going gets tough... It's due to the fact that they've already worn down their crews with all the "little things" that go wrong... Fully-crewed boats are better prepared to deal with such cascading failures, but as one who does a considerable amount of single/shorthanded sailing, I'd rather take my chances aboard boats where things have been properly done by the builder from the get-go...


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

JonEisberg said:


> ...
> 
> The increasing use of U-bolts instead of proper chainplates on today's production boats is simply one of my pet peeves... I don't believe it's a proper setup, and it seems such a blatant example of a builder "cheaping out", and going with something easier, and will likely be "good enough"... And, it quite possibly will be, for 99% of the sailors of such boats... I could be wrong about that, of course... (grin)
> 
> ...


Yes I understand what you mean but you should not forget that the backstays on modern boats only are subjected at a fraction of a force that are the backstays on older boats. Some modern boats like the Hunter or the Pogo 12.50 just don't use them. That has to do with the rigging of the mast and with the spreaders.

Another thing is the lateral chainplates and this ones are massif and very strong on the Bavarias and connected to a main bulkhead, I mean they normally finish in two strong steel plates, one on each side of the bullkhead , embracing it, and both sides united by steel bolts that go trough the bulkhead. Some others use them linked to the main boat structure.

Regards

Paulo


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

PCP said:


> > Originally Posted by JonEisberg
> > ...
> >
> > The increasing use of U-bolts instead of proper chainplates on today's production boats is simply one of my pet peeves... I don't believe it's a proper setup, and it seems such a blatant example of a builder "cheaping out", and going with something easier, and will likely be "good enough"... And, it quite possibly will be, for 99% of the sailors of such boats... I could be wrong about that, of course... (grin)
> ...


Again, you're right about that, but I still don't like the practice, and I've seen it elsewhere, in some very surprising applications...

For example, you'll rarely find a boat built to a much higher standard than Cherubini does... Yet, I was stunned to see U-bolts instead of chainplates for the main and mizzen shrouds on the 44 shown at Annapolis a few years ago... And, yes, the lowers were, too, ever so slightly misaligned... (grin)










Chainplates can be a tricky thing to get right on any rig other than one with inline shrouds... On boats with fore and aft lowers, there is almost always some degree of misalignment to the load, for to get it just so usually requires the chainplate bulkhead to be slightly angled, or the chainplate itself either bent, or twisted... Few builders bother to go to such lengths, even the Valiant 42 I took south last fall, the chainplates for the lowers were absolutely vertical and ran athwhartships, and relied on the insertion of a toggle to improve the modest degree of misalignment...

"Good enough" perhaps, but still, not "Done Right"... (grin)


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## PCP (Dec 1, 2004)

JonEisberg said:


> ...
> "Good enough" perhaps, but still, not "Done Right"... (grin)


Yes, I agree with you and would like to give an advice to all that buy new mass production boats, Bavarias or any other brand.

As Jon said the rig tunning is very important. I would say that modern boats rigs are well designed to the loads of the rig but everything is mounted by the dealer...and that can be a very dangerous thing. I have heard some astonishing stories about the way some rigs are mounted and tuned by dealers.

So a word of advise: Chose a big dealer that have a lot of experience with the boat. Try to be there when they mount the rig and talk with the rigger to see if he does not put some boy doing the work and check properly the work done.

If not, before doing some serious sailing with the boat go to a "official" rigger from the brand of your mast (warranty issues) and ask him to tun the rig. You are going to be surprised with the quantity of work needed and with what he is going to say about the ones that had rigged the mast...at least that was what happened to me.

Regards

Paulo


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

pcp said:


> i guess that a boat that has made a circumnavigation (or two) will be able to head for bermuda. I know it is ruff, but you have just to take it with care and to know what you are doing. Probably the boat can handle more than what you are able to or at least more than what 99.5% of the sailors can handle.


+1.


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## mortyd (Dec 17, 2004)

if you're in the market for a boat, ask catalna owners for reasons not to buy a catalina. you'll start looking at catalinas all over again.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Again, you're right about that, but I still don't like the practice, and I've seen it elsewhere, in some very surprising applications...
> 
> For example, you'll rarely find a boat built to a much higher standard than Cherubini does... Yet, I was stunned to see U-bolts instead of chainplates for the main and mizzen shrouds on the 44 shown at Annapolis a few years ago... And, yes, the lowers were, too, ever so slightly misaligned... (grin)
> 
> ...


The lower shrouds on my Col. 43 are essentially U-bolts - they are a stub of stainless strap welded to a large stainless plate which acts as a big backing plate - the stub passes through the deck like a conventional chainplate. All the uppers are conventional long straps bolted to bulkheads etc. It has kept a 66' stick standing for 42 years despite years of serious neglect and the boat has sailed from N.Y. to San Francisco so I guess it's adequate. 

I've never, to the best of my knowledge, seen a chainplate perfectly aligned with the shroud attached to it - that's the reason for toggles.


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## JonEisberg (Dec 3, 2010)

SloopJonB said:


> The lower shrouds on my Col. 43 are essentially U-bolts - they are a stub of stainless strap welded to a large stainless plate which acts as a big backing plate - the stub passes through the deck like a conventional chainplate. All the uppers are conventional long straps bolted to bulkheads etc. It has kept a 66' stick standing for 42 years despite years of serious neglect and the boat has sailed from N.Y. to San Francisco so I guess it's adequate.
> 
> I've never, to the best of my knowledge, seen a chainplate perfectly aligned with the shroud attached to it - that's the reason for toggles.


_NEVER_??? Really? Hmmm, perhaps you need to come back to the East coast, and have a look at some Proper Yachts... (grin)

Toggles are best used for dealing with variable and eccentric fluctuations, such as those due to things like headstay sag, and pumping... They are certainly not intended to correct to sort gross misalignment I was referring to...

Not sure I completely understand your description of your U-bolt arrangement, but there's no question a U-bolt can be made _strong enough_ for a particular application...

My problem with U-bolts that I see on today's boats, is that the clevis pin will be subject to point loading, rather than having its load distributed over its full diameter when held captive within a properly sized chainplate hole.

I doubt there are many riggers out there who would consider a u-bolt attachment superior to a proper chainplate, and that's one reason you'll never see u-bolts in lieu of chainplates on boats built by Swan, Perini Navi, Royal Huisman, and the like...


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

JonEisberg said:


> Not sure I completely understand your description of your U-bolt arrangement, but there's no question a U-bolt can be made _strong enough_ for a particular application...


Picture the top few inches of a conventional strap chainplate - the part the protrudes through the deck and receives the turnbuckle. Underneath the deck that stub is welded to a large flat S/S plate that is bolted to the underside of the deck.

Not the way I would have designed it but, as I noted, it has worked for 42 years including at least one trip from coast to coast via Panama, so I guess Tripp knew what he was doing.


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## Otia (Dec 6, 2011)

Back to Bavaria...
I've own a B38 since 2010. It's the 2004 production, commissioned in 2005. The 2004 model is actually a true 40ft (12.3 meters). The 2003 & 2006 are 38ft. I own the 2-cabin owner version, with deep keel, tall rig and larger engine option (Volvo 55 hp).
This boat has impressed me. Quality of wood work, of rigging (Selden), winches (Harken), etc. everything is well build. You can watch Bavaria's production videos on YouTube to convince you. Hull is reinforced with Kevlar. It's has proven to be very seaworthy even in big seas. It's keel and rig allow this boat to sail fair at up to 30 deg to the wind, though 35-40 deg is much better.
It has weaknesses. For one its heavy - though for blue water cruising this can be an advantage - and thus not very fast. I mostly sail in 20-25 kts winds at a speed of 8-9 kts. 
The rudder itself and bearings are weak for serious offshore. I had it rebuilt and reinforced.
The keel issue is not a Bavaria issue but a real concern for all modern "budget" minded sailboats. Again, on my boat I had the keel attachment redone and beefed up.
Every boat has issues, know your boat and tweak it for your type of sailing.
Overall I am very please with this boat. 
My 1st mate and I are considering a world tour in a few years and question if we invest on this hull or get a bigger boat. A 50+ foot would be nice, but the big advantage of our B38 is that it is cheap to run.


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## grossifs (Dec 29, 2015)

I ve got since 1 year a fantastic bavaria 40 avantgarde 2012 farr design. Up to now a wonderful boat. Beside on my same marina I ve got other 10 bavaria that have cruised and raced for years crossing even atlantic.. no reports of abnormalities whatsiver up 2 now....

Inviato dal mio SM-G7102 utilizzando Tapatalk


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Otia said:


> ........
> My 1st mate and I are considering a world tour in a few years and question if we invest on this hull or get a bigger boat. A 50+ foot would be nice, but the big advantage of our B38 is that it is cheap to run.


Seems to me you've addressed the major 'shortcomings' of the factory version, if these jobs have been well done then you've already got a boat you know well, can handle easily and that should be (now) up to the task.

Not sure I'd want to 'start over' with a bigger boat - esp since it may well need much of that work/upgrades all over again.


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## SloopJonB (Jun 6, 2011)

As usual, Ron is right - ease of handling and cost (for most of us) should be primary considerations. A boat around 40' is a better choice for a couple going cruising. You don't want to *have* to be dependent on labour saving gear and the loads on a 50' mean that sort of stuff is essential for a couple.

My biggest was 43' and humping a genoa or main on deck, even on land was pushing me - and I'm over 6' and (way too far) over 200 Lbs.

I can't imagine doing it at sea in bad weather.


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## Stu (Dec 28, 2015)

After sailing a Vision 46 and scouring over every inch, we decided this was our next boat. Been searching for years for our new boat and traded in a Jeanneau SO. Our goals were (in order): modern sleek design, quality of build, solid feel under sail, single hand sailing, large and open cockpit and saloon. Bavaria boasts their precision production processes and from my critical inspection I agree. Crazy to think they produce over 2000 boats per year and I'm hoping that they paid close attention to the detail on mine. Getting very excited about seeing it in April! I will repost my experience with delivery and commissioning.


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## S/VPeriwinkle (Dec 6, 2015)

If a brand of boat is consistently lower in price, that means something. You are right to ask why. One approach might be to go aboard a more "expensive" boat (I recommend Pacific Seacraft) and then compare. You will be very surprised at the difference when you get back aboard a "plastic fantastic" brand.

Periwinkle
--
Boat for sale ad removed per forum rules- Jeff_H SailNet moderator


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## grossifs (Dec 29, 2015)

Recently I ve been to the Bavaria factory in Germany. I ve been really astonished on how they produce. Starting from the.material....FG Is of the ansolutely best quality. All under vacuum... robot that precisely drill and the all the best regarding quality control. Everithing is done INSIDE the farm even tje upholstery and all the furniture. So I really don t understand Periwinkle. It seems to me that is ralking withkut an exact knowledge on how Bavaria works... if you are regerring on all the rest f.i. winches and so forth that depends ONLY in how much the owner wants to spend for it. You can choose starting from the lower to the higher models. So gain I can t really understand... to talk nad you have first to see how they work...bye...

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