# Talk me out of a Pogo 30



## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

It is becoming more apparent to June and I that we are unlikely to make proper use of our Bristol, i.e. crossing more oceans or living for years in the tropics onboard and that most of our sailing will be in the short, light wind season on the Great Lakes. We were considering something like a J37C since we hate to motor and feel that a performance boat would mean we could sail more and motor less. Taken to its logical conclusion this thinking is leading us toward a Pogo 30. For those who don't know the boat they are built in France by a company that specializes in Mini-Transat and Open 40 boats. The 30 thought is meant for cruising but still weighs not much more than 6000 pounds and planes readily and controllably. If we went this route we would pick up the boat in France and sail it back, either via the Caribbean or directly. The cost, pretty much other than sails and without VAT which is not payable since we would leaving the EU is about 110,000 euros (US$125,000). It would be a new build since these things just are not on the market used - they are just too new. This price is for the swing keel version (about 1 m draft when up which suits are needs very well) and includes a below deck autopilot. We would get the aluminum mast rather than the carbon one to save money.

About the boat, you can read a review here.

Pogo 30 tested ? pocket performer with cruising aspirations

Here is the first paragraph of the review from the UK magazine Yachting World. Hard to imagine being more impressed by a boat than this.

"Let me come clean: the Pogo 30 is the most enjoyable boat I have ever sailed. I've certainly never returned from a boat test so excited or pumped before. Nor could I get the memory of sailing her out of my head for weeks. Like a kid at a fair, I just wanted to go for another ride. Why? Because the Pogo offers the sort of fun you simply don't expect to have on a 30ft cruising boat."​
About us: Very experienced sailors with a recent circumnavigation. All of our experience though is with older, conventional boats. Ainia is almost 40,000 pounds when loaded and while reasonably quick for a lead mine goes through waves rather over them. By the time we got the boat I would be close to 70 and June near 60, but we are both quite fit and healthy for our ages.

This does make sense or is it just a late mid-life crisis?


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## mr_f (Oct 29, 2011)

When I am approaching 70, not sure what to do after I finish circumnavigating, I want a mid-life crisis like this.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

Does it make since? Hell yes if you are planning on only living once. It is a great boat and we almost bought one. The main reason we did not was the wait to get one, last year the wait was almost two years. the other things that were a problem for us was the lack of headroom. Every time I asked the sales people what was the headroom they changed the subject and I never got an answer. I have heard 5' 6" but not confirmed. also the beam is 12' 2" and that is not going to fit in our 11' 8" slip. we could get a larger slip but here the wait list is 5 years for a 35' slip and side ties are hard to come by and twice the price of our current slip.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

They sent me drawings of the boat because I asked about headroom. There is 1.90 m at the foot of the companionway but it quickly decreases as you go forward. I am 1.80 (5'11") so would be OK for a few feet of the cabin and then would have to bend further forward. I don't have a problem with beam for a dock fortunately. They said first delivery date was late 2016 so either supply has increased or demand decreased (I suspect the former). We would probably want to get delivery in the spring of 2018 and spend a few months cruising in Europe (the only continent we have not sailed in) before heading over the pond. Going to the Caribbean in November/December would work well and we would get one more (spartan) winter there before heading north.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Sounds awesome. 

Just wondering have you given consideration to a small tri. 
Have a friend who owns the multihull source. He hooked us up and we sailed the largest corsair for a week. Have also sailed dragonflies. 
In terms of silly smiles and giggles even in light air for someone too old to sail a moth think they can't be beat.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Nope, I refuse to do it. The Pogo's are amazing, in fact the 12.50 is my current dream monohull. It isn't just the performance, of which there is a lot, but everything I have read about Structures is phenomenal. From the tight tolerances to being willing to tell customers "no that's a stupid idea and we won't do it." I think they also guarantee finished displacement to +\- 1%. That's an incredibly tight tolerance, which means the repeatability of their boats and attention to detail is very high. 

The one thing I would suggest is try to stretch for the carbon rig. It may not be that important to you, but on resale it's going to be a pretty major hit. These boats just really demand it. Lighter weight rig, faster responce, faster planning, and much stiffer. If nothing else, on resale the carbon rig is going to go at a major premium.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Stumble said:


> Nope, I refuse to do it. The Pogo's are amazing, in fact the 12.50 is my current dream monohull. It isn't just the performance, of which there is a lot, but everything I have read about Structures is phenomenal. From the tight tolerances to being willing to tell customers "no that's a stupid idea and we won't do it." I think they also guarantee finished displacement to +\- 1%. That's an incredibly tight tolerance, which means the repeatability of their boats and attention to detail is very high.
> 
> The one thing I would suggest is try to stretch for the carbon rig. It may not be that important to you, but on resale it's going to be a pretty major hit. These boats just really demand it. Lighter weight rig, faster responce, faster planning, and much stiffer. If nothing else, on resale the carbon rig is going to go at a major premium.


Good point - the kids don't need an inheritance anyway. I checked and the carbon mast is 8230 euros, so not cheap. I think telling a customer something is a stupid ideé would sound even better in French.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

outbound said:


> Sounds awesome.
> 
> Just wondering have you given consideration to a small tri.
> Have a friend who owns the multihull source. He hooked us up and we sailed the largest corsair for a week. Have also sailed dragonflies.
> In terms of silly smiles and giggles even in light air for someone too old to sail a moth think they can't be beat.


We looked at one once at Annapolis (can't remember the model but it was not too large) and the Admiral just did not like it. One advantage of the Pogo is that is enormous for a 30'. That would be a plus for us coming from a 45'


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Understood. My wife wouldn't let me fly all the rags after she held the tiller and felt it buzzing in her hand from micro cavitation. Still if I hit the lottery a Rapido 60 is in my future.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

killarney_sailor said:


> Good point - the kids don't need an inheritance anyway. I checked and the carbon mast is 8230 euros, so not cheap. I think telling a customer something is a stupid ideé would sound even better in French.


So a carbon vs aluminium stick adds less than 10% to the coat of the boat. But if you ever wanted to swap to carbon down the road I would probably cost $30,000. So the way I do the math you are getting 75% off the retail price of a carbon stick. Hard to pass that up in my world. 

The problem I see with a trimaran for you guys is cost... For the price of the Pogo you would be in a pretty good condition Corsair 31 that's +25 years old. Not a bad boat by any sense of the word, but not quite the same either. Plus the interior accommodations on a tri are... Tight. If you add in the deck it's huge of course, but down below is very tight.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Stumble said:


> So a carbon vs aluminium stick adds less than 10% to the coat of the boat. But if you ever wanted to swap to carbon down the road I would probably cost $30,000. So the way I do the math you are getting 75% off the retail price of a carbon stick. Hard to pass that up in my world.


Tell me you are not an accountant.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

killarney_sailor said:


> Tell me you are not an accountant.


Nope, I can't afford one either. Happen to know one who works for 75% off?


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Another issue with multihulls and small crews is that you'll spend more time and effort slowing the boat down, esp in seas, than you'll spend trying to get the max out of them. Our Caribbean cruising friends had an F25C for quite a few years racing and summertime cruising in the PNW. When they chose a boat for wintering the Caribbean chain they went back to a monohull (but a far from sedate Bene 36.7) I think they would drool over a Pogo as well.

Can't see any reason to talk you out of this one.. but maybe check out some of the similar Euro products like the Melango 999... or 888

http://idbmarine.com/en/index.php


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

The Pogo 30s are incredible boats. No doubt. And I can certainly see how they'd be fun as hell to sail. BUT...(and this is where you're going to chuckle with my history)...

I think that when you're talking crossing the Atlantic (if I understand you correctly), that's a *mighty big bite* for a 70-year-old dude coming off a Bristol 45. Are you really that into minimalism and work to manage a seriously sporty boat for weeks on end? Remember, Hodges also said this...



> ...so long as creature comforts are not uppermost in your priorities. Think nautical French camping: no doors, only small open lockers, a freestanding heads and minimal lighting and appliances. If you ask nicely there's a stove and hot running water. So, while the 30 may still seem like sheer luxury to some racing sailors, it lacks the creature comforts many cruisers would expect.
> 
> Of course there are negatives too: the open, free-standing heads is impractical at sea; there's no feedback from the helms; you have to be careful of the rudders swinging over when motoring astern.


13 gallons of water and 9 gallons of fuel. And a 13 hp engine? It had better scream under sail.

At least it will probably float no matter what.

In any case, I look forward to the write up. I wouldn't do it.


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## Scotty C-M (Aug 14, 2013)

Killarney, Have you sailed on the boat? Spent a week on one? If yes, and you like it, go for it. If not, you might want to try it on for size before making such a radical change. Either way, it's your call. Good luck to ya!


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## roverhi (Dec 19, 2013)

Off the wind they are screamers, will plane in 10k winds. With all the berths and the Pogo's light weight would doubt you'd be able to carry a lot of supplies so best to do the sail across the Atlantic Solo. Would be a gas for daysailing and short range cruising especially in light wind areas. $130,000 is about $120,000 more than I'd want to pay for a 30 footer, however. Nice Yankee 30 for sail for less than $10,000 in the PNW right now. With that price, would have money left over after converting to a carbon spar and shipping east.


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## PaulinVictoria (Aug 23, 2009)

You should buy it, discover you don't like it, and then sell it to me for a buck.


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## goat (Feb 23, 2014)

killarney_sailor said:


> By the time we got the boat I would be close to 70 and June near 60, but we are both quite fit and healthy for our ages.
> 
> This does make sense or is it just a late mid-life crisis?


Mid life crisis at 70? Since you'll be sailing the boat until you're 140, I think the cost stretched out over the years of use, $150/month make it seem cheap. No, I'm also not an accountant. I'm a goat.

goat


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## Slayer (Jul 28, 2006)

How well do they sail into the wind? I haven't read the review above, but I always thought these boats (open 40's, 6.5's etc.) were designed to sail very fast down wind, but provided a rough sail up wind. I still like them though. 😎


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

smackdaddy said:


> The Pogo 30s are incredible boats. No doubt. And I can certainly see how they'd be fun as hell to sail. BUT...(and this is where you're going to chuckle with my history)...
> 
> I think that when you're talking crossing the Atlantic (if I understand you correctly), that's a *mighty big bite* for a 70-year-old dude coming off a Bristol 45. Are you really that into minimalism and work to manage a seriously sporty boat for weeks on end? Remember, Hodges also said this...
> 
> ...


My concerns about the boat are about the elements and electrical generation. I have no idea if you could fit dodger and/or bimini, the former since I suspect the boat would be quite wet. Also some sort of sun protection would be very nice to have for the tropics. Also you would need to have solar panels to power the autopilot. I am sure the Pogo people have done this in the past. Not sure if the battery capacity is adequate, but again several of these boats are being used for extensive cruising.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Faster said:


> Another issue with multihulls and small crews is that you'll spend more time and effort slowing the boat down, esp in seas, than you'll spend trying to get the max out of them. Our Caribbean cruising friends had an F25C for quite a few years racing and summertime cruising in the PNW. When they chose a boat for wintering the Caribbean chain they went back to a monohull (but a far from sedate Bene 36.7) I think they would drool over a Pogo as well.
> 
> Can't see any reason to talk you out of this one.. but maybe check out some of the similar Euro products like the Melango 999... or 888
> 
> http://idbmarine.com/en/index.php


Thanks for that I will check those out as well. they are made close to Pogo which is convenient. We are going to France next April for the 100th anniversary of Vimy Ridge (Canadian military reference). My father (at age 15) and grandfather fought in the battle so it makes sense to go there. Will use the opportunity to do plant tours and test sails. Might see if we could charter one for a few days.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

roverhi said:


> Off the wind they are screamers, will plane in 10k winds. With all the berths and the Pogo's light weight would doubt you'd be able to carry a lot of supplies so best to do the sail across the Atlantic Solo. Would be a gas for daysailing and short range cruising especially in light wind areas. $130,000 is about $120,000 more than I'd want to pay for a 30 footer, however. Nice Yankee 30 for sail for less than $10,000 in the PNW right now. With that price, would have money left over after converting to a carbon spar and shipping east.


It is April 1st right? There are lots of 30 footers that are quite cheap but none like this. In a way it is not really that expensive for a new boat.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Slayer said:


> How well do they sail into the wind? I haven't read the review above, but I always thought these boats (open 40's, 6.5's etc.) were designed to sail very fast down wind, but provided a rough sail up wind. I still like them though. 😎


The reviewer was very impressed with how well they sailed to windward but this was close-tacking up a river so flat water. I suspect that they would be fine in waves but might be quite wet. Getting across from the Canaries to the Caribbean is off the wind. The hard bit would be getting to the Canaries from Europe. We could sail coastal as much as possible to Morocco I guess.


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

I wouldn't even dream of.................. talking you out of a POGO. Damn nice rides, as you obviously know. Others, need to do their research. Its not like you are going in to this blind with this as a whim. Nice to see someone who is on the clue bus looking in to something like this instead of the standard" I have never sailed before but it has always been my dream to sail the world and even though I only have $1000 I am going to fix up this POS.......". Good luck with what ever you decide. Looking forward to following your decision process.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

"My concerns about the boat are about the elements and electrical generation. I have no idea if you could fit dodger and/or bimini, the former since I suspect the boat would be quite wet. Also some sort of sun protection would be very nice to have for the tropics. Also you would need to have solar panels to power the autopilot. I am sure the Pogo people have done this in the past. Not sure if the battery capacity is adequate, but again several of these boats are being used for extensive cruising."

Me thinks you be talking yourself out of it ☺

Clearly the Pogo30 is all about performance.. mucking it up to become a comfortable cruiser was also clearly not a primary design feature. Just my observation looking at the boat online. Don't see how a Bimini can work looking at the traveler and such.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Trust me, the Pogos do JUST FINE going to weather. Their VMG angle and speed is almost as good as any modern performance boat of the same size. Due to the flat and wide front end, they can pound, and the lack of furniture downstairs can make it sound like you're in a drum. But that's in chop. On flatter water or rolling seas no issues at all. And the boats are amazingly strong and will handle anything.

The tankage is a total non-issue, and a old-school worry. Who wants to carry around all that freeking liquid??? They cross the oceans in 6.5 mini's for christ sake. Get a hydro-generator for the transom (Structures will mount the brackets for you) and a water generator (plus a hand-operate spare) and you are golden.

Boats like this don't need huge fuel tankage because that sail at the speed of the wind in any breeze. If you sail a heavy tub that is loaded down more with a 1000 lbs of liquid you might worry about motoring and tank range, but sadly that planning causes it own problem!

Get the carbon stick. YOLO.

If you cross FOR SURE do the Canaries-windwards route.

I've sailed a bunch of them; 12.5. C40v2, 10.5 and have been on the 30 and 50 so if you have anything specific just ask.

There is a factory seahoods (dogers in the USA) for ALL Pogos, the 30 included. Biminis are not allowed. Sorry.


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## overbored (Oct 8, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> My concerns about the boat are about the elements and electrical generation. I have no idea if you could fit dodger and/or bimini, the former since I suspect the boat would be quite wet. Also some sort of sun protection would be very nice to have for the tropics. Also you would need to have solar panels to power the autopilot. I am sure the Pogo people have done this in the past. Not sure if the battery capacity is adequate, but again several of these boats are being used for extensive cruising.


You may need to rethink cruising across oceans and the way it is done in a pogo 30. You can't add 6000lbs of stuff to a 6000 lbs boat. You get some backpacking food ,rain water catch, a case of cigs, foul weather gear and one pair of speedos, only need one pair because you don't wear them most of the time. A hat for the sun. Learn to speek some choice words in French and go


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> You might well want to do it if you had more experience than you currently do.


Actually, no, I wouldn't. Not on this boat. Period.



killarney_sailor said:


> My concerns about the boat are about the elements and electrical generation. I have no idea if you could fit dodger and/or bimini, the former since I suspect the boat would be quite wet. Also some sort of sun protection would be very nice to have for the tropics. Also you would need to have solar panels to power the autopilot. I am sure the Pogo people have done this in the past. Not sure if the battery capacity is adequate, but again several of these boats are being used for extensive cruising.


This is one of the reasons I brought up fuel capacity. I'll definitely defer to jackdaw on the ability of these boats *to do it*. I don't question that. But I'll put hard money on the probability that those skippers are not 70 and coming off a Bristol 45 and into dodgers, biminis, and solar panels.

Again, just my opinion because you asked. Go for it if you want.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Here's a 12.5 with a hydro-generator. You can see the starboard bracket as well. Some people will have two, one on each side, some will have two brackets and move from side to side as you tack or gibe. Good part about crossings, you can stay on the same board for days so swapping not a big deal. If you have two you can flip and lock up the windward one.


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## Kemp (Nov 21, 2015)

killarney_sailor, please drop me PM if you are interested in first hand experience.


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

So you are going to be over there anyway.... have a look..... poke around.... test sail..... what could possibly be the harm in that? :wink


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## miatapaul (Dec 15, 2006)

I won't try to talk you out of it, but let me get first in line for a ride! They look like a blast. Not what I would want, but do look fun.

Edit:

Not that I would not want it, but more that it would not suit the majority of my use.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> Thanks for that I will check those out as well. they are made close to Pogo which is convenient. We are going to France next April for the 100th anniversary of Vimy Ridge (Canadian military reference). My father (at age 15) and grandfather fought in the battle so it makes sense to go there. Will use the opportunity to do plant tours and test sails. Might see if we could charter one for a few days.


Its a 8 hour drive from Calais to Combrit; just saying.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

To be clear, I have zero experience on Pogo's but the reports I have read indicate that the real trick to upwind sailing on these is to get the leeward chine wet. Basically you get the boat healed over enough to get the fat but out of the water and they go upwind like the blazes. The water plane drops to just a narrow knife edge and remains very symetrical. It will never be an upwind monster like a Tripp 40, but will hold its own against 80's era (j-35 etc) designs. 

Of course off the wind everything changes, and it doesn't have to be far off the wind either. 


Guys keep in mind that Structures builds about 75% of the Mini and Open 40 fleet. They are quite litterly the world experts in figuring out how to deal with getting a performance boat and her crew across oceans successfully. I am sure they have solar, water gen, and water maker stuff all figured out. As well as the electrical system figured to handle the loads. With a boat that will easily average 10kn off the wind, hydro generators are really in their prime, no need to skimp on that 12v water maker. 

As for biminies... I think this is one of those things Structures will just say no too. But a good dodger I bet is in the plans already. They are necessary in the southern ocean, where many of these boats wind up. 


Finally, there are a couple of Pogo 30 owners in the US already, one on the Great Lakes I think. It may not require a trip to France to test drive one if you are serious about buying.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

This is pretty good...






Thanks PCP.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> This is pretty good...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like I said that's the deal. Canaries to the Windwards. Hydro-gen doing the power and water. Hang on and put the spurs to her. They are AMAZINGLY TOUGH boats. Honestly most people will never set foot on a boat this strong. The build team gets to know their customers personally, and how they will use the boats. They KNOW they will use them to cross oceans.

If you're up for that, the Pogo is too.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

If your comfy flying a chute 24/7 you will make a fast passage, under working sails, not so much as a lot of this trip is downwind sailing. I've looked at the 12.5 and it sort of hooked me a little but it's a backpackers form of cruising. In your case you are really just doing a delivery and then lake sailing. I really understand the lake sailing as that's where I started and it's nothing but fun. The delivery would be a challenge but so what. In this day and age lots of people talk but few do so if it really turns your crank go and do it, wear your Nike hat.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

robert sailor said:


> . I've looked at the 12.5 and it sort of hooked me a little but it's a backpackers form of cruising.


I've spent weeks straight on the 12.50 at sea and in the harbor and it is the most comfortable boat I've ever sailed on. And the fastest.

There is nothing roughing-it about it. It has hot and cold running water, a gas stove and a fridge. Full nav and tunes inside and out. The berths are HUGE and comfortable. There is bags of space, storage, and well-formed seating. The cockpit and deck are glorious. Best swim transom you will ever see.

Not a lot of teak but I've never been comforted by the presence of excess wood trim.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

It's a cool boat for sure, what I meant about a good cruising boat is living on one 24/7. Very different from sailing and living aboard for a few weeks. If I was a younger man that would probably be a top choice. 30+ years ago when everyone was cruising in West sails, Valiants and the like I chose to head out in a C&C 36 which was a rare choice back then for crossing oceans. I like the boat, I like how it's built and the sailing reports I read.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

That boat would suck for full time cruising. Let's be honest.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

smackdaddy said:


> That boat would suck for full time cruising. Let's be honest.


Many would probably say the same of our friends and their Bene 36.7.. We were certainly often the smallest, and certainly the simplest, least complicated setup in any of the bays we anchored up and down the Caribbean chain.

I think Bruce and June would get along very well with our friends on SkitterScamp.. similar priorities and outlook. Once you get past the austerity of the Pogo and figure out ways to deal with those perceived shortcomings I think it's doable - but not for everyone.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Take 20 years off me and I'd cruise the 12.5 Pogo but as I said earlier it would be backpacker style or minimalist style however you want to describe it. These days I'm dragging around more stuff than I ever had in the past and the weight would not enhance a boat like the Pogo in anyway. I love quick boats but cruising tends to change your priorities.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

robert sailor said:


> Take 20 years off me and I'd cruise the 12.5 Pogo but as I said earlier it would be backpacker style or minimalist style however you want to describe it. These days I'm dragging around more stuff than I ever had in the past and the weight would not enhance a boat like the Pogo in anyway. I love quick boats but cruising tends to change your priorities.


Now I get where you are coming from. Fair enough.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> That boat would suck for full time cruising. Let's be honest.


Smack, I gotta tell you, you talk way too authoritatively about crap you've never done. I'm guessing..

You've never really set foot on a Pogo a or high performance boat,
You've never sailed more than a day out of sight of land,
You've never spend more than a week away dock.

Yet you can say that quote with conviction. You've got all these positions. How do you know? And amazingly you lecture the OP on cruising. The Dude has DONE A LAP. Please.

Stick to what you actually know.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

Faster said:


> Many would probably say the same of our friends and their Bene 36.7.. We were certainly often the smallest, and certainly the simplest, least complicated setup in any of the bays we anchored up and down the Caribbean chain.
> 
> I think Bruce and June would get along very well with our friends on SkitterScamp.. similar priorities and outlook. Once you get past the austerity of the Pogo and figure out ways to deal with those perceived shortcomings I think it's doable - but not for everyone.


Yeah, it's definitely an issue of priorities. Like I said above, it's doable for some as that video I posted shows. And it's a screamer of a boat - no question. But I absolutely think it would suck for full time cruising.



jackdaw said:


> Stick to what you actually know.


I am. And I know that boat would suck for full time cruising. I also think the same about a VO65 or an Open 40. Maybe that's just me.


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## shaggybaxter (Oct 4, 2015)

Hi Guys,
There is a Pogo 30 owner called Jean Remy in Combrit that helps out Structures with test sails, he took us out for the day on his 30. He is a retired airline pilot and sharp as a tack, very technical and into the dynamics of sailing as you would expect from his previous career. He loves the 30, and when pushed on the topic, the only thing he told me he would upgrade to from the 30 if he had an unlimited budget was the Pogo 12.50. The whole time we were on the water he did all the sails himself, setting and dousing kites whilst I held the helm and just grinned the whole time. Not bad for a retired gentlemen essentially single handing the boat, if you substituted me with the autohelm. 

I found the feedback from the dual tillers on the 30 to be excellent. Short tacking up the river was a breeze , and if you can get that fat arse out of the water they point like a demon. Downwind and reaching they are stable as a rock. Negatives I remember were headroom forrard (I am 6'1") the mainsheet gets caught on the tiller when gybing, and because it is only a 30' you can't overload them without suffering a penalty on how quickly they get on the plane.

I ended up buying the 12.50, and I have to disagree with some previous comments, the 12.50 is an excellent cruiser. It is mind numbingly simple to maintain high numbers, has enormous space below and in the cockpit, handles lots of added weight, has a very wide groove, stability is off the charts, I could go on. 
Pogo's really are engineering centric boats, my build quaility is excellent. In my dealings with them this shone through everywhere. An example: reefing our 12.50 single handed is easier than any cruiser or racer I have ever sailed. You don't luff up at all, you stay powered up close hauled, ease the halyard, the full battened main and cars slide down nicely, go to the mast, clip the reef ring to one of the two dedicated shackles on the mast for reef 1 and 2/3, haul on the halyard, then throw the reef line on the winch and tighten. 

Are they the best cruiser? I am sure they are not. Are they the best cruiser for those of us that like fast passage making? In my humble opinion, oh yes.
Is the interior spartan compared to a traditional cruiser? Yes. 
Is the interior comfortable and user friendly? Yes.
Do I find the interior lacking anywhere when we are in cruising mode? No. 
A piece of advice, don't skimp on the autohelm. The NKE is just awesome, makes my old Raymarine look just pathetic. 

Edit: To be fair, one thing that is not perfect on the 12.50 regards cruising is the galley position needs a safety lashing setup for when your standing in really heavy seas. 
My 2 cents!
SB


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> Yeah, it's definitely an issue of priorities. Like I said above, it's doable for some as that video I posted shows. And it's a screamer of a boat - no question. But I absolutely think it would suck for full time cruising.
> 
> I am. And I know that boat would suck for full time cruising. I also think the same about a VO65 or an Open 40. Maybe that's just me.


Yet the people who are actually doing it say otherwise. You have no idea what it is like so how can you even say? You haven't even been on one. I prefer to listen to people who have actually done something than an "internet expert".


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

cb32863 said:


> Yet the people who are actually doing it say otherwise. You have no idea what it is like so how can you even say? You haven't even been on one. I prefer to listen to people who have actually done something than an "internet expert".


CB - you'll notice that most of the people above are talking about how she _*sails*_. And I have absolutely no qualms with that. I have no doubt this boat sails like a freakin' dream and these guys are absolutely right. So even though I've never sailed a Pogo 30, I believe them. BUT I also don't see where any of them claim that *they cruise this boat full time*. And it's this latter part that I'm talking about. This boat would suck for full time cruising...for the vast majority of people out there. No question.

And in this, I'm backed up by people you like so much who have actually done something and even sailed this very boat ...like Hodges...



> ...so long as creature comforts are not uppermost in your priorities. Think nautical French camping: no doors, only small open lockers, a freestanding heads and minimal lighting and appliances. If you ask nicely there's a stove and hot running water. So, while the 30 may still seem like sheer luxury to some racing sailors, it lacks the creature comforts many cruisers would expect.
> 
> Of course there are negatives too: the open, free-standing heads is impractical at sea; there's no feedback from the helms; you have to be careful of the rudders swinging over when motoring astern.


So I don't really give a damn whether you listen to me or not. But that certainly doesn't make me, or the above expert, any less right.

PS - and to be clear, I'm not talking about any other boat in the Pogo line. Just this 30.


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## cb32863 (Oct 5, 2009)

smackdaddy said:


> And in this, I'm backed up by people you like so much who have actually done something and even sailed this very boat ...like Hodges...


Huh? I don't know who Hodges is and "people I like so much"? Also, I stand by what I said, you don't.... actually.... know.....


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

cb32863 said:


> Huh? I don't know who Hodges is and "people I like so much"? Also, I stand by what I said, you don't.... actually.... know.....


Yeah, yeah...


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

smackdaddy said:


> And I know that boat would suck for full time cruising. I also think the same about a VO65 or an Open 40. Maybe that's just me.


I just have a problem with the way this is said. Clearly you have never cruised like that. Nor have you been on a Pogo. So how can you make such a definitive statement?

Think about like this. People used to (and still do) cruise FULL TIME in Baba 30s. This boat has MUCH more room and the same creature comforts. If people moved up from the B30, but was because the Baba was so freekin slow passagemaking, even for a 30 footer. The Pogo 30 cruises at a pace faster than your 40 would. But in a smaller LOA. Without any personal experience or knowledge, how can you be so sure this is wrong?

Maybe we're just different. I look and think about what I write very carefully. In my mind, making such a flippant and casual statement would undermine any credibility I had there, and in other posts I made. Maybe others don't care so much.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

I think you two are arguing over what it means to go cruising, or what creature comforts are required. Me, I like camping, even for long periods of time I am fine with Spartan conditions for long periods of time. My wife however requires air conditioning, hot showers, and a makeup mirror. 

I would love to go cruise a Pogo 30, my wife wouldn't consider it. But that doesn't mean the boat is capable it simply means it doesn't carry the luxury accoutrements she would demand. But to be fair no 30' boat has the luxuries she would want. 

Now the Pogo 12.50... It just might. Toss in a very light generator, and window AC, and we might be in business. In my world too much of a boats space is dedicated to sleeping accommodations I just don't want or need. I want a host that sleeps two and camps four more. Because almost all the people I see cruising double hand, with sleeping accommodations for 10. It's wasteful.


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## elliowb (Jun 8, 2015)

Thanks to the OP for this great thread! 

I tend toward the very traditional (my compromise was to get a cutaway keel rather than full keel), however a few years back I sailed for the first time on a Lagoon 380 and had a blast. It totally changed my outlook on large ocean-going sailboats. The Pogo line of boats seems to be more like a cat, in terms of it's speed, stability (at least on a beam and broad reach), and interior volume, but it doesn't have the negatives of a cat (massive beam that is expensive to berth and initial cost). I wish that I had known about them when I was looking for a boat. I might have been swayed. The speed, build quality, and simplicity really are appealing.


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

Well it is true that to judge the Pogo 30 as a cruise boat you would have to compare it to other 30 ft boats and I doubt very much that there is a 30 ft mono with more overall space than the Pogo so on that level it wins. It probably sails better than 95% of the 30 ft monos so that's another win. It's built for the rigors of offshore sailing which few 30 footers are so another win. It's more spartan but I guess these days that's considered a stylish euro interior. I don't know, I think you could make a pretty good argument that the Pogo 30 could be made into a decent cruising boat. It's sure a lot bigger than a 28 ft British channel cutter and those boats have cruised all over the world. It's not going to appeal to folks that are used to the American style cruiser but I could see it having a good market for the younger folks.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

jackdaw said:


> I just have a problem with the way this is said.


Oh, well I've never been one for decorum.



jackdaw said:


> Clearly you have never *cruised like that*. Nor have you been on a Pogo. So how can you make such a definitive statement?


Cruised like what exactly? Maybe that's the disconnect.



jackdaw said:


> Maybe we're just different. I look and think about what I write very carefully. In my mind, making such a flippant and casual statement would undermine any credibility I had there, and in other posts I made. Maybe others don't care so much.


I wouldn't worry about it JD. You only lose credibility if you're wrong.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Go back to the OP. They are probably among the most experienced cruisers here. Be wise to defer to their judgment about cruising. Above seems just silly hogwash in view of their experience.

Say GO FOR IT. A last glorious hurrah. Have too much fun.


Seems this boat will be in high demand for some time to come. You have the boat keeping skills to keep her Bristol fashion. Less downside if it doesn't work out. Understand the angst about buying new instead of used. In this case seems clearly justified to go new. I went new and remain a happy camper.


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## Siamese (May 9, 2007)

I don't see a good place for a litter box.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Actually there is a huge amount of space for a litter box. The boat is huge for a 30 footer both inside and on deck. 

I want to thank people for their comments and suggestions; both have been helpful. We certainly will check the Pogo and Mojito out when we are in France next (likely next spring). I have been thinking a lot about how cruising this sort of boat would be different than cruising the Bristol. One difference is obviously how much stuff you want to take with you. On the Bristol we would carry a bunch of things just for convenience or because we might want it someday. For example, we probably would have close to 200 books. On a Pogo these would be electronic in most cases. We would have half a dozen gallons of engine oil and perhaps 30 oil and fuel filters. The chart table locker was big enough to hold a couple hundred paper charts - although we tended to get away from paper charts later in our travels. Again electronics here - carrying many electrons is not heavy. We had a/c and a diesel furnace that never got used after we left NYC. We carried many, many tools. The Pogo would be simpler, with fewer systems and everything being smaller so we could get by with fewer tools. We have both a large refrigerator and a separate freezer.

When I thought about it, there were a lot more similarities to the type of cruising though. You need to have provision for safety and crew comfort, including sleeping accommodation. The boat needs to sail well so you are not motoring. The Bristol was terrific for this in trade wind conditions when you can usually count on 15 to 30 knots. With the Pogo we would need to find out what sail inventory they suggest. Getting across the Atlantic does not seem like the issue. Getting to the Canaries might be. With the Bristol we have six sails but never used the storm jib or trysail, and rarely used the #3 or staysail. With a Pogo, main, genoa (smallish it appears), asymmetric, and ???. If were going to be crossing lots of oceans I could see getting a 12v water maker but we are intending to be on lakes where there are lots of places to get water (even drink the lake on Superior). I can see carrying lots of water bottles like the one in the video. Water power generation seems like a good idea to feed the autopilot.

Anyway, lots to think about.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Sounds fun KS, do it!


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Tomayto - tomawto, Mojito - Melango 

KS, sounds like fun no matter how it ends up. All the best!


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

I bid $2 for the option to buy if you do not like it......It would work very well for how I sail etc here in the salish sea. 

My spouse does not like our boat either. But as some friends have said......not sure if she would like anything other than a 50+' MV of some sort. Frankly, it would not get used as much as the 28'LOD sailboat we have. Yeah no hot water, or shower. But have a stove, head, heat if plugged in.....could fix up diesel or LP heat probably.........

Sounds like similar head room to the pogo 30 back to front........

I have to admit tho, for where I am, fixed keel would be prefered.....but a CB version would work well too.

Marty


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## robert sailor (Jun 22, 2015)

What makes you think that it's tough getting from the Med to the Canaries??


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

It isn't the Med. These boats are made in northern France so you do have Biscay in the way and it would be in the fall.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> It isn't the Med. These boats are made in northern France so you do have Biscay in the way and it would be in the fall.


Indeed. It's doable in the fall but you have to be able to wait for a very good weather window. The good news is the frontal systems can be known for days in advance. Weather does not form there but comes there; so it is rare these days you get a big suprise. A friend of mine has done it several times; he charters Pogos in Greece and drives them around. They have waited for weeks for their window.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

KS, what were your typical passage speeds with the Bristol? How do you think the Pogo would compare against those speeds? Do you anticipate flying kites at night? What do you believe your average passage speed would be?


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Shockwave said:


> KS, what were your typical passage speeds with the Bristol? How do you think the Pogo would compare against those speeds? Do you anticipate flying kites at night? What do you believe your average passage speed would be?


Good questions all. With the Bristol in very good conditions on a trade wind passage we would do 130 to 170 nm a day, sometimes higher (our best was 209) sometimes in the 115 range. Typically this would on a beam to broad reach in 20 to 30 true.

Not sure you can really compare the two boats though and we are looking for a boat with really good light air performance. Overall I think the Pogo would be faster, especially if we include winds less than 10. In stronger winds, lets say broad reach with 20 to 25, the Pogo would be faster with the asymmetric up, but I have to figure out how hard that is to do with only two crew and whether the autopilot handles it OK. In these conditions the Bristol with white sails only would be very comfortable and easy.

We did not use the asymmetric on the Bristol at night. Assessing the risk/reward balance it just did not make sense to us to do so. We are very much of the 'there are no old, bold sailors' persuasion and it has served us well. Also we only used the kite if true winds were less than 15. Over this speed we did fine without it. Unlikely to change this policy with the Pogo unless the forecast is very benign. I assume the boat would do well in 8 to 15 knots with genoa.

As to average passage speeds, I don't know. I suspect they will be higher than the Bristol off the wind in light to moderate conditions (say up to 20 sustained). In strong conditions the Pogo is theoretically much faster (the polars suggest up to 14 knots on a broad reach in 25 knots, but I assume this is with the kite and someone driving. Sailed conservatively the Bristol might be as fast (we do high sevens to low eights quite comfortably) and would be more comfortable.

Note that what I say about the Pogo would fall in the category of informed speculation.


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

killarney_sailor said:


> Good questions all. With the Bristol in very good conditions on a trade wind passage we would do 130 to 170 nm a day, sometimes higher (our best was 209) sometimes in the 115 range. Typically this would on a beam to broad reach in 20 to 30 true.
> 
> Not sure you can really compare the two boats though and we are looking for a boat with really good light air performance. Overall I think the Pogo would be faster, especially if we include winds less than 10. In stronger winds, lets say broad reach with 20 to 25, the Pogo would be faster with the asymmetric up, but I have to figure out how hard that is to do with only two crew and whether the autopilot handles it OK. In these conditions the Bristol with white sails only would be very comfortable and easy.
> 
> ...


KS,

Your points are well founded. Four things I'dd add regarding my Pogo experiences.

1) That except to windward, with any breeze you sail faster then you could ever motor. This very asymmetrical nature of speeds makes routing planning very interesting.

2) The NKE Gyropilot is a true wizard at driving the boat and I'd trust it in almost all situations. We let it drive for hour on end with the kite up, just slightly over-trimmed to help the AP. This coming from a below-deck Raymarine unit on our First 36.7 that I would never let drive downwind.

3) Our FAV flying sail on the Pogo has to be the Code 0. Usable as a spinnaker with little loss of speed potential, the roller-furling nature of the 'FR0' made it very safe to use, and the flat luff with the integral torsion line made it easy to trim and let fly unattended; no worry of collapse.

4) While the 12.5 could stand up to SERIOUS loading up, Weight is still is the enemy of fast cruising. It would be interesting to hear from P30 owners how loading up the boat effects breakaway speed, and to what degree.


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Killarney,

Just as an addendum to what Jackdaw mentioned...

This is not a boat you want to put a big headsail on. The big main means you would be switching down upwind very quickly, likely at <10kn with anything much larger than a 105. Which is why a Code sail on a furling drum, or a genneker is pretty much assumed. 

I would also really suggest getting some time in on a similar type boat. Because this design is so stable under a spinnaker, and the boat is so fast, in 15kn of breeze with a spin up you feel like everything is very locked in, and incredibly stable. The faster you go, the more stable it gets. It is simply a radically different feel than flying a spin on an old IOR boat or really any true displacement hull. Instead of things loading up, and the boat starting to feel like it's about to explode, she comes alive and you can really feel the boat start to smile, then laugh, then cackle maniacally as the speed starts to climb. 

I should also point out that modern gyro-autopilots are probably better drivers under a spinnaker than about 90% of cruisers. I don't really understand the algorithms they are using, but they really do a great job of holding an apparent wind angle. Add to that a very lightly loaded rudder like the Pogo and the Autopilot really becomes the primary driver. On my friends mini, he told me that the auto drove about 90% of the time when he wasn't in port, and it should have been more but sometimes he forgot that it was doing a better job than he was.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

KS, it looks like your passage times were fine with the Bristol. Are you considering the Pogo for more long distance cruising or is this a boat for local waters and the occasional short cruise? It will certainly be a fun boat to sail either way but have to wonder if the load carrying ability of the Bristol would be missed if the Pogo is to be used for distance cruising? 

We went the opposite direction with weight and waterline to give us speed and load carrying, ten knots boat speed is easy in ten knots of breeze, it costs more though in both money and effort.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

We are looking for a boat for daysailing and shorter cruises on the Great Lakes, but we would like to sail the boat back to Canada, likely via the Canaries and Caribbean. In this case we would have one ocean crossing and half a year in the Caribbean before heading north.

Another boat that was recommended to me was an RM 890. I did some research and found a brief note about someone doing a circumnavigation on a Nordhavn 62 and was going to buy either an RM 890 or Pogo 30 on his return. At least I am going from sail to sail even if my Bristol is a 'bit' different from a Pogo or similar.


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## Shockwave (Feb 4, 2014)

Sounds like a plan KS. Would you buy an inflatable upon your arrival in the Caribbean? I wouldn't imagine you would need it much before then. I've found Budget has better prices then the mainland chandeliers for dinghy's.


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> At least I am going from sail to sail even if my Bristol is a 'bit' different from a Pogo or similar.


Now that's what I call an understatement.


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## killarney_sailor (May 4, 2006)

Shockwave said:


> Sounds like a plan KS. Would you buy an inflatable upon your arrival in the Caribbean? I wouldn't imagine you would need it much before then. I've found Budget has better prices then the mainland chandeliers for dinghy's.


That is a bit of an issue. We have almost completed the build of a Chameleon nesting dinghy that we plan to row or sail. I think it would work very well with a Pogo. Only problem is that the dink (and our clapped out but still usable inflatable) would be in Canada while we would be away for the best part of a year and would need something. Somewhere we have to pick up a cheap (used?) inflatable and small outboard. Might be easier to find one in Europe than the Caribbean. While talking about dinghies, I noticed that the Mojito 890 (?) has a dinghy garage under the cockpit for a small inflated inflatable.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

killarney_sailor said:


> ........... While talking about dinghies, I noticed that the *Mojito 890* (?) has a dinghy garage under the cockpit for a small inflated inflatable.


Melango 888 ( or 999)


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## smackdaddy (Aug 13, 2008)

killarney_sailor said:


> That is a bit of an issue. We have almost completed the build of a Chameleon nesting dinghy that we plan to row or sail. I think it would work very well with a Pogo. Only problem is that the dink (and our clapped out but still usable inflatable) would be in Canada while we would be away for the best part of a year and would need something. Somewhere we have to pick up a cheap (used?) inflatable and small outboard. Might be easier to find one in Europe than the Caribbean. While talking about dinghies, I noticed that the Mojito 890 (?) has a dinghy garage under the cockpit for a small inflated inflatable.


You mean the 888?


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## blt2ski (May 5, 2005)

There is a malango, mohito and an opengo by the same builder. Takes the same hull, designs the three boats for different uses. 
http://www.idbmarine.com/en/index.php

Interesting group of boats....

Marty


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## jackdaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Fun Pogo story, a friend just took delivery of a Pogo 50 and sailed from Brittany to Greece. Said it was the most amazing enjoyable, comfortable sail he's every had. As it was a delivery/shakedown, they didn't push the boat. But:

1) Top sustained speed: 21.5 knots.
2) AVERAGE speed to sail 320nm across the bay of Biscay (1/2 upwind) 11.5 knots!

Amazing.


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## outbound (Dec 3, 2012)

Amazing boat and builder/N.A. do a successful ARC with her. Perhaps no limits with production boats done by small houses in a less corporate environment.


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## elliowb (Jun 8, 2015)

jackdaw said:


> they didn't push the boat. But:
> 
> 1) Top sustained speed: 21.5 knots.
> 2) AVERAGE speed to sail 320nm across the bay of Biscay (1/2 upwind) 11.5 knots!
> ...


WOW. That is really incredible. I'd love to go for a sail on one of these. Looks like an absolute blast!


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## shaggybaxter (Oct 4, 2015)

Hi Guys,
Thought I'd post a recent video when we were out playing. This was not in race mode, we had a couple of 100 litres of water on board and 50 litres of diesel, and 8 POB. 
Might provide some insight into the weight argument


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## Stumble (Feb 2, 2012)

Shaggy,

Did I hear that right, you guys were sailing spin up in 36kn true? 

What was the boat speed?


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## shaggybaxter (Oct 4, 2015)

Hi Stumble,
Yes, that was about the most we saw that day. The maximum boat speed was 20 knots. I reckon she would have done more, but we kept driving the bow into the waves in front. Embarrassingly, I forgot to take the anchor and chain out of the bow locker (probably a good 60 kgs odd) and store it in the lazarette which probably explained it . Coralie from Structures is still dirty with me i think, she races on a Class 40  
I should add that it was the gennaker and staysail we had up at the time, not the kite, the gennaker still flies from the sprit but more of a reaching/running sail than the kite, it is a roller furler so much easier to handle than the snuffer on the kite in those winds.


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## shaggybaxter (Oct 4, 2015)

I should add she was hitting those numbers in as little as 30-32TWS, and we were still accelerating . This was in the bay and approx 4-6 ft swell but short duration, so not the best conditions. Can't wait till next month when we get her offshore for the first real outing!

And to stave off any arguments ....


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