# Help what sail to raise 1st?



## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

What sail do you put up first The main ? I have been reading a book By Allen Brown: Invitation to sailing. on page 144 it is very clear to raise the main or the most aft sail first then raise the jib and lower them down in that order also main first jib 2nd I just took the local clubs into class enjoyed it. I am about to take ASA 101 Paid for it I hope it will be just as much fun. The Intro class used a book ( Learn Sailing Right! beginning sailing ) This is a US sailing book a new one copy right 2008 in chapter 4 page 16 raising sails "raise the jib first then the mainsail" Allen brown is very up tight about the main first. So lets have It Also let me ask keel down after you raise the sail or before? I have done it both ways? I have a few years trying it and I thought I had the order decided but now I may have to rethink it. Yes I know buy a boat with a fixed keel and no worries mate. Please answer the sail question 1st


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## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

The Sunfish just has one sail for years I have not thought about how or why to do this or that or if it was right. The FJ has three sails and I have yet to see if it will float sail side up


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

We always raise the main first, always have. With the rare exception when we'll roll out the jib only on a heavy downwind leg, it's main first.

Headsail only sailing is one of those debatable topics, but I like the balance of a properly reefed sailplan that meets conditions of the day. Trying to fly a spinnaker without a main makes dousing and retrieval much more difficult.

So for us it's Main up first, down last, and always head to wind for each.

... and board down first. You can experiment with board up positions when running, but otherwise down and locked if you can.


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## deniseO30 (Nov 27, 2006)

Main first. Deploying the jib or genoa won't let the boat turn point into the wind as easily and will make the main really difficult to raise because the of the wind loads on the track. it's near impossible to raise or drop a main that is not luffing. Even with the engine, the main needs to luff. . Keel up or down but to raise the main it needs to luff. (luffing= flutter, not have wind hitting sideways, or no wind) exception may be smaller boats since they don't need muscle or mechanical advantage.
Just my opinion..


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## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

Thank you both for the fast replys


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

Main first, for all the reasons advanced above.


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## celenoglu (Dec 13, 2008)

The original idea is to raise the most aft sail first. If yo have a ketch or a yawl raising the mzzen sail keepsthe boat to thewind and you will be able to raise the others. Keep the mizzen tight, leave others free andthe boat will be headng the wind.

On a sloop this does not matter, you keep the head to wind with the engine.


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## SchwarckT (May 6, 2012)

After clearing the dock, my usual procedure is to: shut down the engine, raise the jib, come up on a close reach, raise the main, go sailing. I always drop the board/keel before raising sails.


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## smurphny (Feb 20, 2009)

Whatever else anyone may tell you.....MAIN FIRST.


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## sevseasail (Jan 15, 2007)

As it was mentioned above, if it's a very small boat, or there's no wind, I don't think it matters that much, but, on a larger boat and or with some wind the Main sail needs to be up first (engine running or not) and then the Jib; the Main will be the last sail to come down. 
Board down before raising sails.


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## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

Ok, thank you, so far the main first seems to me to be the (Main Idea) True the FJ is so little it may not matter. I am starting to see why the insructor I had did the main first in his boat. It was not untill going over the books that I started to think on what order to use. Allen Brown's book said start aft you could have trouble if you start near the bow but did not say what kind of problem or why. Now I get it your main could jam and give you a hard time you will be out of the cockpit when you are doing this splashing around in the waves. I am looking at a yawl even more sails. This yawl is not going any place. It will be years before I act on yawl or other boat Decison. Right now the habits I learn in small boats will be the ones I will use in bigger boats or if I run into trouble I do what I have done in the past most of the time. If I am not thinking this out right or need to add more please do. Thanks for all the replys sailnet is a good tool to have! LOU


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## Donna_F (Nov 7, 2005)

Most of the introductory sailing classes and books assume that you are learning to sail on a small boat. I would re-think your plan of carrying forward what you learn now. Not that you shouldn't carry it forward, as 98% of the time that will work but you must be open to adjustment based on the type and size of boat that you are on, not to mention the conditions in which you are sailing. Another example is when you're told that your boat will tend to have weather helm. A few boats tend to favor lee helm based on their design.


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## Faster (Sep 13, 2005)

Most any boat will tend to 'weathercock' upwind if the aft most sail is raised first.. this is much preferred to having a forward sail up alone that will, if filled or backwinded, wear the boat around and into a probable gybe while you're struggling to raise the aft sail second.

Trying to raise or lower a mainsail in any position other than head-to-wind will make it much harder as the partially raised sail will tend to plaster itself onto the spreaders and shrouds, adding drag and causing chafe, possibly catching and tearing a batten pocket as well.


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## c25novi (Jan 5, 2012)

Keel Down, Main Up, Leave mooring, Jib up.

Reverse steps for coming home.

Always in that order.


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## gpdno (Jan 30, 2012)

Depends on my mood. There is really no difference or no reason to do it one way or the other as long as you have a reason. 
Leave how to heave to. Great thing to learn and very helpful. One on the many advantages it with the headsail back winded the main is covered. 
So I'll motor out to the gulf until i get to the jetty. Shut down the motor and raise my headsail and sail out in the gulf. Once I'm out in the gulf, I'll backwind the headsail. It now easy to raise the main, flip the headsail and off I go. 
When I come in I'll sail close to the jetty, heave to, drop and secure the mainsail and then sail in under headsail alone. 
Heaving to is also great for reefing the main. 

Of course, sometimes I'd the winds are light, I'll just raise it before I leave the dock and just motor out to the gulf with the main taught.


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

As our boat is a ketch the mizzen is the first up, then jib and finally the main. They're furled in reverse order. With two sails jib first, then main. There is more control with the jib, making it safer to manage the wind. EG try docking with your main, rather than the jib.


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## canucksailorguy (Mar 2, 2006)

On a sloop, main first, then jib. Furling, it's jib first, then main. Others have outlined the reasons. Anyone who tells you different is telling you wrong. You only have to be at the mast with the genoa slapping you upside the head because you went jib first to realize why.
Learning on a small boat is fine, just remember, the bigger boat is...bigger. Bigger loads, more momentum - the basics apply, but may have to be adapted to the boat you are on.
In strong winds, it's possible (and often smarter) to furl the jib by hiding it behind the main so that there is no wind in it. Then turn into the wind to furl the main.

Wally Moran
CYA Basic Cruising Instructor
Delivery and Charter Captain


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## jackdale (Dec 1, 2008)

canucksailorguy said:


> On a sloop, main first, then jib. Furling, it's jib first, then main.


Not sure why furling would make any difference.


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## SchwarckT (May 6, 2012)

My 15' boat only has oars, so I can't motor into the wind to raise the main. And in my O'Day Mariner or O'Day 22 it works just fine to raise the jib/genoa first (motor off) and sail close to the wind before raising the main as it luffs. What would you do if your motor quit with no sails up?


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## AirborneSF (Dec 14, 2010)

In ASA 101, we were told main 1st, head sail 2nd, (eng running till sails set, if you have an eng), this keeps steerage, then headsail down 1st, main last, eng running. Anytime sails are up, you need board/keel down. My .02


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## SVAuspicious (Oct 31, 2006)

I've consistently done the same for 35 years on boats from 420s to 65 fters. Main up first and down last. Keel down as soon as you have water for it and up as late as possible (except up when sailing downwind). 

Competitive racing, deliveries, cruising, always the same: main up first and down last.


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## koconnell (May 5, 2011)

I do not recall how similar the sail set-up is between 420's and FJ's. Sailing 420's, the jib is always raised first as the tension takes the load off of the front stay and pulls the mast forward. The mast is not very stable if this is not done correctly. It is much more difficult to tighten the jib halyard as much as needed if the main is raised first. 

I think this procedure is much different on dinghy's because it can be done at the dock/launch while facing into the wind instead of sailing/motoring. I try to put the centerboard down first (if the boat is in water deep enough) to reduce the steps required after the sails are raised.


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## canucksailorguy (Mar 2, 2006)

Jackdale, that was poorly phrased. Should have said, when you furl, jib first, then main.
btw, how is one able to teach offshore sailing in Calgary? ;>)


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## Lou452 (Mar 2, 2012)

I am looking at all the post and can see a pattern. I will give room for some variable and change from the old way, new boats, or some other reason. Most of the post so far total up in favor of the aft sail raised first and lowered first. The old dogs seem be on that trail. The reasons that have been outlined seem to hold up for me. I will give room for a boat or sailing style that is unusual but remember I am new and want to train to have a kind of default system. Saftey needs to be at the core, I will always go back to fundamentals 98% of the time.


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## CapnBilll (Sep 9, 2006)

I can tell you from experience it is much harder to steer into the wind with the jib up, There is a reason it is called the MAIN sail.


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## Roxy405 (Feb 29, 2012)

Lou,

I assume you're talking about your FJ here?

The technique for dinghies is different than the one for keelboats. The wire inside the jib luff takes over from the forestay and (tensioned correctly) will impart about 400lb onto a rig of that size. Assuming it is correctly set up the spreader angle and deflection will cause the mast to bend to an amount that fits the shape of luff of the mainsail.

It isn't impossible to hoist the main first on a dinghy, but it is harder. Generally speaking it is better to pull the jib up first—easier and it means that the rig is properly tensioned when you put the main up. Obviously, the considerations that apply to a keelboat (that it is hard/impossible to keep a balanced helm with the headsail alone up) don't apply: when you're doing this your boat is sat on its trolley just before you launch and you should be stood on the beach. 

Unless you have an incredibly good reason (like, getting towed out a long way) you're going to want both sails up before you launch. Hoisting the mainsail in a 13ft dinghy on the water is a giggle, but not in the right way! Depending on the type of jib-luff-wire tensioning system you have, hoisting the jib can require one person pull the forestay outwards to unload the rig while the jib-luff-wire is tensioned. Obviously, this is impossible once you're afloat.

And, Lou, if you aren't talking about your FJ (or a different dinghy) then all of what I've just written is totally wrong.


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## davidpm (Oct 22, 2007)

I'm going to be contrarian here.
Motoring into the wind and raising the main first is the generally accepted practice. But what if you have no motor.
On a Catalina 25 I was very sucessfull in letting the genoa out about 100% then getting the boat moving close hauled. then raising the main with the sheet loose even with lazy jacks.
Another trick that worked pretty well was to tack with the jib only and quickly raise the main during the tack.
This was all single handinG of course in about 15 to 20k with no motor.

It certainly adds to your bucket if you can do basic maneuvers without the motor.
Practice it's not that hard.


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## SchwarckT (May 6, 2012)

Exactly the point that I was trying to make. After all, how did people sail before motors were invented?


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## dub420sailor (Mar 29, 2010)

Not sure about on a masthead rig, but on a fractional rig you can do some considerable damage if sailing with just the jib depending on your rig setup. It all has to do with rig tension. 

For a dinghy, especially an FJ or 420 jib up first so that you can tension the jib wire which will pull the mast forward. On some larger dinghies this is unnecessary when the jib wire tension can be adjusted on the fly. 

Unlike everything else on a small boat the higher the wind the looser you want the jib wire because it will give more mast rake (mast angled backwards). This is especially beneficial downwind. In lighter air you want the mast farther forward (less rake will result in more power). If you want to really crank the *@$&$ then get someone to pull on the forestay while you push the mast forward with you foot and cleat off the halyard. As you go it is easier to let out the tension than to add it. If you must tension the jib wire while you are sailing, head dead downwind so that the mast is being pushed forward and use your feet to push it forward while cleating off the halyard.

On a larger boat or a dinghy with adjustable jib wire, main up first, then jib.

Downwind spinnaker up, jib down. Then jib up, spinnaker down.

This is probably more than you wanted to hear, but hopefully it helps.


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## LaurenceU (Mar 7, 2011)

Agree main up first wherever possible. There are some conditions when headsail first is needed. Eg sailing out from a dock (no engine) when the wind is aft. In this situation raising the jib in the dock is ok as the wind is readily spilled.


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## MITBeta (May 13, 2011)

Generally, main first, then jib. As for the questions about how to do this with no motor:

If on mooring, bow is kept into the wind by the painter.

If in open water, raising the main will keep the bow into the wind. You might actually end up sailing backward some, but that's okay (as long as you have the room!). Once the sail is up and you have some steerage way, you can raise or unfurl the headsail. With a roller furling headsail, you can deploy the sail on almost any heading, but with a hanked on jib, you'll also want to be into the wind.

Raising the headsail first and then the main while close-hauled is okay as long as you can actually sail like this with the headsail alone. Not all boat/sailplan combos will actually allow for that.


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## DrB (Mar 29, 2007)

*Group Think*

I nearly 100% of the time raise the main first and typically do it while on our mooring. The few times that I don't raise it on the mooring is if there is 15 to 20 kt winds as we need to go in a certain direction get into the main channel and sometimes the main and the motor be working against each other . Not that the we can't dump wind from the main, but it just makes steering more difficult especially as we leave the mooring. In these instances, we wait until more open water to raise the main.

The jib/genoa is raised second. Sometimes we do it running or reaching, but usually not when close hauled unless very light (6 kt or less) winds.

As far as which sail to drop first, usually it is the headsail, but I have dropped the main first and rolled in the head sail to a very small area and used it to sail onto a mooring more effectively in a breeze with two people. As we approach the mooring we come in on a close reach or "close haul" at about 3 kt boat speed at the right moment, spin the boat, furl the remaining head sail exposed while gliding into the mooring. We try to time it to "overshoot" the mooring by about the 3 ft which allows me time to pick up the pennants while the are slack and get them on before the boat gets blown backwards by the wind. My wife hates when we do this (no motor), but she knows it is a critical skill to have.


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## sea_hunter (Jul 26, 2000)

Funny how things change over the years along with personal preferences. http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/6579-sail-trim-primer-ketch.html 
The "jib and jigger" sail combo is a proven ketch combination. After a century away from sailing fishing boats, especially with light plastic recreational sloops and cutters; traditional sailing methods are blown in the wind. I sailed for years pulling the main first but 50 years of experience has taught me there's more than one way to skin the cat. In a heavy blow, a jib and jigger set is the only way to go and is easily managed with an added reef for the mizzen and a close sheeted genoa. Single sticked boats are considered "easier" to sail and less expensive to maintain with half the hardware, but most schooner, ketch and yawl aficionados know better.


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## Screaming Seagull (Feb 11, 2012)

Always raise main first and drop last. I feel more in control also find it easier to set the jib.


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## rgscpat (Aug 1, 2010)

I'd think sailing's biggest problem is the sailors who hardly ever raise ANY sails.


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## Ilverococoo (May 21, 2012)

I find much easier raising the main first and dropping it last.
I sail on a sloop and i have no experience with ketches so i can't really this is a golden rule


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## Hudsonian (Apr 3, 2008)

When sailing away from a mooring generally raise the main first, except when a strong current has the boat pointed downwind and the mainsail would be plastered against the rig before you have it raised. Then sail away and out of the mooring field under the jib and go onto a close reach to raise the main.

When sailing up a mooring generally drop the jib first, except when a strong current will hold the boat pointed downwind at the mooring plastering the mainsail against the rig before you can get it down. Then sail up to the mooring under the jib and drop or furl the jib at the last minute.

If you sail to or from a dock the same principles apply. You certainly don't want to be sailing downwind into your slip with the main sail up.


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## asdf38 (Jul 7, 2010)

I'm usually single handed or running the show myself. With main only I can tie off the tiler pointing down a bit and the boat will sail herself while I raise the genny. Much easier than the other way around. 

I made the mistake once of sailing genny only with guests that couldn't be trusted with the tiller. Even though I wanted to raise the main once I got out I couldn't.


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